# Admiral Kizaru versus Jozu and Doflamingo



## trance (Sep 23, 2013)

*Location: *A big ass island

*Intel: *Full

*Distance:* 10m

*Mindset:* Bloodlusted

*Bonus: *Kizaru vs. Vista (swordfight)

Can Borsalino-san handle their scariness? ​


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## Shanks (Sep 23, 2013)

Tough call, while Kizaru is stronger than both of them individually, 2 v 1 is a different story and 1 wrong move can cause our Favorite admiral eating dirt via a brilliant punk.

Kizaru has range advantage and he can probably spam Yasakani no Magatama while in the air, but then again Jozu should be able to block this, while DD intercept him in the air some how.

I'll give the underdog my benefit of the doubt and say say dou wins extreme dif.


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## RF (Sep 23, 2013)

Kizaru wins the bonus scenario, but I'm not sure about the 2vs1. If you made it Aokiji who could evidently get past Jozus defenses quickly, I would give the admiral a wash, but not with Kizaru. The duo wins.


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## Shanks (Sep 23, 2013)

*waiting impatiently for the goons to appear...*


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## jNdee~ (Sep 23, 2013)

You got your wish.

Kizaru mid-high diff.


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## Shanks (Sep 23, 2013)

Battousai said:


> You got your wish.
> 
> Kizaru mid-high diff.



That was fast.


It would be high dif for Jozu alone. It took Aokiji the entire war and a distraction together with a Hacks ability to take down Jozu. Kizaru is just a bad match for Jozu as his strongest attack is not enough to penetrate the diamond defense. 

If Jozu stand still, he can tank Yasakani no Magatama at at least 1 hour, needless to say we're talking about a fighting Jozu with no distractions combine with Joker.


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## jNdee~ (Sep 23, 2013)

Let me ask you a question before I reply to that, who do you  consider stronger, Jaws or Doffy?


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## Shanks (Sep 23, 2013)

Battousai said:


> Let me ask you a question before I reply to that, who do you  consider stronger, Jaws or Doffy?



Law or DD?

Joker.

DD or Jozu?

About the same.


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## jNdee~ (Sep 23, 2013)

Dafuq. Where did Law came from.

Now, another question if you wouldn't mind, do you think Law can give Doflamingo a high-diff fight?


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## Shanks (Sep 23, 2013)

Battousai said:


> Dafuq. Where did Law came from.
> 
> Now, another question if you wouldn't mind, do you think Law can give Doflamingo a high-diff fight?



You said "Jaws", so I wasn't 100% sure who you where referring to. 

Answer to this question is yes.


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## jNdee~ (Sep 23, 2013)

Then that gives it.

That means you consider Law as close to Jozu level.

You saw how Issho was treating the two of them, the power level difference is too transparent. Kizaru should have the same firepower or greater than Issho. Frankly, yes Jozu would be a tough call shell but Kizaru should be able to outlast him.


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## RF (Sep 23, 2013)

He just has high hopes for Supernovas, that's it. Kizaru is not taking down the two of them, and even if he was able to it would be far from "mid-high" difficutly.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Sep 23, 2013)

The truth is that in the whole godamn manga, Kizaru has been barely hurt, both Rayleigh and Marco did minimum damage to him, Jozu might potentially lift mountains and shit, but I still dont see it as enough to take the monkey down. Based on the existant feats so far, Kizaru takes it the easy way or the hard way...


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## November (Sep 23, 2013)

Well, he wins the bonus. 
Not sure about the 2 v 1... can go either way...
Or he lose, or he decide to go serious in a AWESOME offpanel battle


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## Beckman (Sep 23, 2013)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> The truth is that in the whole godamn manga, Kizaru has been barely hurt, both Rayleigh and Marco did minimum damage to him, Jozu might potentially lift mountains and shit, but I still dont see it as enough to take the monkey down. Based on the existant feats so far, Kizaru takes it the easy way or the hard way...



It took Akainu 10 days to take down Aokiji. Guys of that level won't take any major damage in short skirmishes unless they're taken of guard (like Marco), or don't care about their life (like WB).


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## Urouge (Sep 23, 2013)

Kizaru wins this. Jozu might be able to block most of kiz lasers but dofla won't be able to.

@sakazuki your aokiji comment is bullshit. Unlike kizaru aokiji has to touch them with his hands unlike kizaru. If it was any other top tier or admirals I bet that you would have said that they beat the duo.


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## RF (Sep 23, 2013)

It's not my fucking fault that Kizaru is the weakest admiral and on top of that has an ability that Jozu can counter perfectly with his diamond. And as a matter of fact, they may even take down Akainu. I have jumped the gun on siding with the duo immediately, true,  but acting like it isn't even a match is absurd.


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## Urouge (Sep 23, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> It's not my fucking fault that Kizaru is the weakest admiral and on top of that has an ability that Jozu can counter perfectly with his diamond. And as a matter of fact, they may even take down Akainu. I have jumped the gun on siding with the duo immediately, true,  but acting like it isn't even a match is absurd.



Fucking prove it that he's the weakest. Just because you don't like him doesn't make him the weakest. Read my fucking post damn it. I said that jozu will probably survive the first assault because of his df. Dofla won't be so lucky. you certainly jumped the gun.you need to chill out and forget about kiz when debating about the admirals and especially kizaru.

all the admirals would win this fight.


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## Slenderman (Sep 23, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> *waiting impatiently for the goons to appear...*



Sorry I couldn't come earlier I was tired. Kizaru mid-high diff. Mid diff for bonus scenario.


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## RF (Sep 23, 2013)

Prove? Everything in the manga connotes to him being the weakest. He sure as fucking hell isn't as strong or stronger than Akainu (if you question this, and I know you won't because you're genuinely intelligent, but if you do, don't respond), and Aokiji was so absurdly close to Akainu that Kizaru can't fit in between. 

Then there's also the fact how he always interacts with first mates instead of captains (Marco, Rayleigh, Beckman), and it's clear as a day what Oda tried to portray at Marineford; Shanks ≈  Akainu > Kizaru ≈  Beckman. And since we have direct manga proof that Aokiji and Akainu are nearly equal, we infer that Akainu is ≈ Aokiji. 



> I said that jozu will probably survive the first assault because of his df



He took a slash from Mihawk without flinching. He'll take much, much more than a single one, and this is assuming that he will actually tank them .... instead of avoding which Doflamingo can do as well.



> all the admirals would win this fight.



Conjecture.


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## Urouge (Sep 23, 2013)

did I say that he was stronger than aokiji? even if he was the weakest the gap between him and aokiji woukd be negligible. Also if kizaru is >= to Beckmann like you think where does marco fits because you said last time that kiz was stronger than him. If kiz >= Beckmann then there's not enough of a gap between the two to fit marco. Make up your mind. It wouldn't surprise me if you put marco above him next time 

The difference between mihawk slash and kizaru laser barrage is that kizaru attack doesn't end with one attack. He can continuously attack them until one if them fall. Dofla unfortunately doesn't seem to have the tools to protect himself against kiz barrage. Lets not forget that he struggled against fujis casual attack.


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## RF (Sep 23, 2013)

Marco, Beckman and Rayleigh are all a tiny bit below Kizaru in my books. There's a reason why _all_ of them interacted with him and none were portrayed as inferior, though I'll always give Kizaru the edge due to him being a part of the perfect admiral trio. (Unless given evidence on the contrary)

The gap between him and Aokiji is indeed tiny, just pointing out that the admirals are not carbon copies of each other.

They can dodge and close the distance. There's a reason why Kizaru dueled Rayleigh with a sword instead of ziping in the air and lasering him. Long ranged attacks in general just aren't going to cut it against people on that level.


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## Vengeance (Sep 23, 2013)

Jozu alone could give him high difficulty, so the two can win this imo.


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## Orca (Sep 23, 2013)

1. Kizaru isn't weaker then Aokiji. Nothing in the manga suggests so.

2. I believe Jozu and Doffy can take this fight.


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## Freechoice (Sep 23, 2013)

Duo takes it.


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## Shinthia (Sep 23, 2013)

Battousai said:


> Then that gives it.
> 
> That means you consider Law as close to Jozu level.
> 
> You saw how Issho was treating the two of them, the power level difference is too transparent. Kizaru should have the same firepower or greater than Issho. Frankly, yes Jozu would be a tough call shell but Kizaru should be able to outlast him.



your trap worked


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## Dunno (Sep 23, 2013)

It depends on Doflamingo's offensive potential. If his attacks are strong enough to seriously harm an admiral the duo might have a chance. Otherwise Kizaru takes it.


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## Psychlonius (Sep 23, 2013)

I believe Kizaru takes this with diff. Jozu isn't close to admiral level, even Marco was bitchslapped by Garp and could do nothing against Akainu. Kizaru might be < Akainu but the gap isn't much. DD is potrayed as more of a evil mastermind rather than a fighter unlike the admirals anyway so its unlikeley he has a secret ability which can counter Kizarus ability.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Sep 23, 2013)

Borsalino beats them combined high difficulty max.

Jozu is too weak to be more than just a nuisance here and Doflamingo's shown his position compared to an Admiral when he faced Kuzan. Not in the same league. I'm thinking a few quick lasers to Doflamingo to subdue him, a few quick and repeated lightspeed kicks to the head of that oaf Jozu to take him for good before finishing of Doflamingo painfully.


Bonus scenario: Borsalino takes this comfortably as well. Borsalino's sword skills were more than matching Silvers Rayleigh - he could probably give Mihawk an extreme fight with his light sword alone. A lightweight like Vista shouldn't be too much of a problem for him then.


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## RF (Sep 23, 2013)

How is Jozu too weak to be more than just a nuisance? What are you basing this off?


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## Admiral Kizaru (Sep 23, 2013)

The manga.


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## RF (Sep 23, 2013)

And what in the manga suggests that Jozu is nothing more than a nuisance to an admiral? Make an argument of it.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Sep 23, 2013)

Cba atm tbh.


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## Urouge (Sep 23, 2013)

hahahaha kiz your username really suits you. never get tired of your trolling bro


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## Sablés (Sep 23, 2013)

Sakazuki said:
			
		

> It's not my fucking fault that Kizaru is the weakest admiral



Impossible to prove.


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## Slenderman (Sep 23, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> How is Jozu too weak to be more than just a nuisance? What are you basing this off?



Remember when he got distracted and his ass hit the ground real quick. He gave Aokiji an opening and Aokiji capitalized on this.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 23, 2013)

Kizaru blitzes Doflamingo then plays around with Jozu 
mid difficulty win


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## RF (Sep 24, 2013)

> Impossible to prove.



It's also impossible to prove that Fujitora is stronger than Zoro. If you want me to type "Kizaru is the weakest admiral in my opinion" then sure, but it doesn't change the fact that everything in the manga supports such a notion. 



> Remember when he got distracted and his ass hit the ground real quick. He gave Aokiji an opening and Aokiji capitalized on this.



Remember when Blackbeard gave Magellan that opening? There's a reason why the commanders fell due to those distractions instead of getting flat-out owned in a fair fight. That's because they're more than just a nuisance.

And you can't forget how Aokiji is _the only_ person in the entire manga bar a few that can ignore conventional durability with his attacks so Jozu's defense was practically worthless. Kizaru is not one of those, sadly.


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## Shanks (Sep 24, 2013)

Battousai said:


> Then that gives it.
> 
> That means you consider Law as close to Jozu level.
> 
> You saw how Issho was treating the two of them, the power level difference is too transparent. Kizaru should have the same firepower or greater than Issho. Frankly, yes Jozu would be a tough call shell but Kizaru should be able to outlast him.



Um no. Can be bother drafting a proper response right now.


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## Freechoice (Sep 24, 2013)

AK has swayed me.

Kizaru low diffs both at the same time.

He could probably take the entire WB pirates minus WB.


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## Slenderman (Sep 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> It's also impossible to prove that Fujitora is stronger than Zoro. If you want me to type "Kizaru is the weakest admiral in my opinion" then sure, but it doesn't change the fact that everything in the manga supports such a notion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well not just Jozu. You're good buddy Marco got 2 lasers through the chest when he gave an opening. @What Good job listen to AK's words they are the light that will guide to the path of truth and anti WB pirate wank.


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## RF (Sep 24, 2013)

He literally ignored Kizaru and rushed to aid his father.


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## Slenderman (Sep 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> He literally ignored Kizaru and rushed to aid his father.



For that was why he lost that skirmish.


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## RF (Sep 24, 2013)

No, he lost the skirmish because Kizaru enlisted a high end Vice Admiral to chain Marco with Kairoseki. Not that this matters in a fair fight at all.


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## Slenderman (Sep 24, 2013)

In the manga he was running and he got pierced by 2 lasers no kairoseki was on him. Marco should have been aable to dodge the cuffs. Rayleigh in his old age would be able to. He wouldn't start running around like a mad dog only to get himself captured.


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## trance (Sep 24, 2013)

In my opinion...

It can go either way in scenario one.

As for the bonus, Vista probably takes it but with high difficulty.


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## Shanks (Sep 24, 2013)

Croc slice akainu in half. everyone else god stomp vista.


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## trance (Sep 24, 2013)

> Croc slice akainu in half. everyone else god stomp vista.



Uhh, Croc and Akainu aren't in this matchup.


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## Shanks (Sep 24, 2013)

Opps Wong thread. iPhone...


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## Firo (Sep 24, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> Croc slice akainu in half. everyone else god stomp vista.



The Fuck are you talking about?


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## Firo (Sep 24, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> Opps Wong thread. iPhone...


I must have missed something. In what thread would it have been plausible to claim that Croc cuts Akainu in half?


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## Sablés (Sep 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> It's also impossible to prove that Fujitora is stronger than Zoro. If you want me to type "Kizaru is the weakest admiral in my opinion" then sure, but it doesn't change the fact that everything in the manga supports such a notion.



It isn't really. By virtue of being an Admiral, Fujitora has already been placed on a higher pedestal.

Kizaru is an Admiral just like the others and the gap between them is miniscule as is supported by the manga.What in the manga supports him being the weakest or at the very least, weaker than Aokiji?


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## Gian Dh (Sep 24, 2013)

Kizaru takes this, mid diff, high diff. at most, they can't hurt him seriously before they get shit beaten out of them. 

What can Jozu do? Give him bloody lips? DD highest feat is stomping an hurt jutteless smoker, if he tries doing that to kizaru he'll get kicked at lightspeed.
Hell kizaru could just spam mangrove busters over and over, the bloodlust SOM is just too much for the duo to handle. 

Oh and probably kizaru could very well be the strongest admiral (his df is just too broken).


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Prove? Everything in the manga connotes to him being the weakest. He sure as fucking hell isn't as strong or stronger than Akainu (if you question this, and I know you won't because you're genuinely intelligent, but if you do, don't respond), and Aokiji was so absurdly close to Akainu that Kizaru can't fit in between.
> 
> Then there's also the fact how he always interacts with first mates instead of captains (Marco, Rayleigh, Beckman), and it's clear as a day what Oda tried to portray at Marineford; Shanks ≈  Akainu > Kizaru ≈  Beckman. And since we have direct manga proof that Aokiji and Akainu are nearly equal, we infer that Akainu is ≈ Aokiji.



Jozu and Aokiji fought while Kizaru fought Marco.


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## RF (Sep 24, 2013)

> Kizaru is an Admiral just like the others and the gap between them is miniscule as is supported by the manga.What in the manga supports him being the weakest or at the very least, weaker than Aokiji?



Inferior portrayal. Marco alone ties with him, and a lonesome Akainu is later on depicted standing in front of Marco and all his peers. Sure, he would of lost but that scene clearly portrays that Akainu is > at the very least Kizaru. Aokiji and Akainu fought it out for 10 days and split an island 50/50 PERFECTLY in their respective elements. Kizaru just falling in between them is really impossible. 



> Jozu and Aokiji fought while Kizaru fought Marco.



Aokiji and Akainu also fought a close to 100% Whitebeard in quick succesion while Kizaru only one-upped him when he was standing with a foot in his grave. At the end of the day, it's Kizaru that always interacts with first mates, and not Akainu, who is virtually equal to Aokiji.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Aokiji and Akainu also fought a close to 100% Whitebeard in quick succesion while Kizaru only one-upped him when he was standing with a foot in his grave. At the end of the day, it's Kizaru that always interacts with first mates, and not Akainu, who is virtually equal to Aokiji.



You must be talking about this.

[YOUTUBE]1PlwOe6WKz4[/YOUTUBE]

Not much happened really. He tried to freeze WB and WB broke out of it. Everything points to the Admirals being equals.


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## RF (Sep 24, 2013)

You're completely missing the point here......

Yes, Aokiji didn't insta kill Whitebeard. What matters is that him and Akainu took on a near full-power Whitebeard while Kizaru interacted with him when he was pretty much dead. 

I agree.that the admirals are extremely close in power, but the gaps between them exist, and Aokiji simply has more going for him than Kizaru.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> You're completely missing the point here......
> 
> Yes, Aokiji didn't insta kill Whitebeard. What matters is that him and Akainu took on a near full-power Whitebeard while Kizaru interacted with him when he was pretty much dead.
> 
> I agree.that the admirals are extremely close in power, but the gaps between them exist, and Aokiji simply has more going for him than Kizaru.



You're looking for signs that just aren't there Sakazuki.


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## RF (Sep 24, 2013)

How are there not any good signs? Aokiji simply has more going for him than Kizaru so we can infer that he is stronger. Just like Zoro has more going from him than Sanji so he is stronger. Sure, Kizaru _could_ end up being stronger, but it's just unlikely with the evidence at hand.


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 24, 2013)

Alright. Let's take this to the library.


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## hehey (Sep 24, 2013)

Diamond reflects light, Kizaru will have a hard time.


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## Halcyon (Sep 24, 2013)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Bonus scenario: Borsalino takes this comfortably as well. Borsalino's sword skills were more than matching Silvers Rayleigh - he could probably give Mihawk an extreme fight with his light sword alone. A lightweight like Vista shouldn't be too much of a problem for him then.



AK


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## trance (Sep 24, 2013)

Yea, I don't think Kizaru could beat a skilled swordsman like Vista at his own game. That part was kinda for lulz. Was surprised when people said Kizaru can beat him.


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## convict (Sep 24, 2013)

hehey said:


> Diamond reflects light, Kizaru will have a hard time.



Diamond can reflect light but certain lasers can cut diamonds.

Bottom line: Oda can use whatever aspect of science he likes to make one have an advantage over the other so don't look into the science of it. Not to mention Oda has taken extreme liberties in the past.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Sep 25, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> Yea, I don't think Kizaru could beat a skilled swordsman like Vista at his own game. That part was kinda for lulz. Was surprised when people said Kizaru can beat him.



The problem is that Vista's game isn't all that. Sure he may be the best swordsman within the Whitebeard pirates but that's rather like saying you're the fastest guy at the special Olympics. 

Borsalino's no slouch with the sword. As a marine he would have had extensive and rigorous training in the art. He was skilled enough at it to knock back the efforts of a determined and focused Silvers Rayleigh. I shouldn't have to refresh you on the Dark King's credentials but as the right hand man of the Pirate King and someone who was quite clearly a swordsman he most likely held the title of WSS prior to Mihawk. 

This was in polar opposite to Vista who barely was able to keep a uninterested and daydreaming Mihawk from slicing him in two. 

Borsalino would take it.


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## Freechoice (Sep 25, 2013)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> The problem is that Vista's game isn't all that. Sure he may be the best swordsman within the Whitebeard pirates but that's rather like saying you're the fastest guy at the special Olympics.
> 
> Borsalino's no slouch with the sword. As a marine he would have had extensive and rigorous training in the art. He was skilled enough at it to knock back the efforts of a determined and focused Silvers Rayleigh. I shouldn't have to refresh you on the Dark King's credentials but as the right hand man of the Pirate King and someone who was quite clearly a swordsman he most likely held the title of WSS prior to Mihawk.
> 
> ...



Your posts are always hilarious when the subject matter is to do with the Admirals, or the WB pirates


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## Ghost (Sep 25, 2013)

Leaning towards the duo.


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## blueframe01 (Sep 25, 2013)

Scenario 1: Jozu alone takes him to very hard difficulty. Having someone as Hexxed as Dofla as an ally would mean a victory for the duo
Scenario 2: Swing around a sword on occasions doesn't make one a top tier swordsman. No way Kizaru can beat someone who could be the top 4-5 swordsman in the world.


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## Typhon (Sep 25, 2013)

Kizaru takes both scenarios. High diff on both I guess.

It may be a sword fight, but what's stopping Kizaru from changing the form of his sword?  That's an advantage all on it's own.


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## RF (Sep 25, 2013)

As much as I disagree with AK's constant wanking, I have to agree with him on this one. Kizaru's overall superiority to Vista should overshadow any sort of skill Vista would have over him. Not only that, but the admirals did look like fairly proficient swordsmen. 



> The problem is that Vista's game isn't all that. Sure he may be the best swordsman within the Whitebeard pirates but that's rather like saying you're the fastest guy at the special Olympics.



Except that the Whitebeard pirates were the greatest crew in the world who were spoken of in the same breath as the other emperors even after losing the Emperor himself, 2 core crew members and their bronze getting crippled. While the special Olympics......oh well.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Sep 25, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> As much as I disagree with AK's constant wanking, I have to agree with him on this one. Kizaru's overall superiority to Vista should overshadow any sort of skill Vista would have over him. Not only that, but the admirals did look like fairly proficient swordsmen.



What people need to appreciate here is that whilst Vista may officially be regarded as having better "technical" swordsmanship skills, that doesn't necessarily mean that he'll win here. 

Vista may be able to do some fancy but ultimately pointless pirouette before he attacks and make his swordplay look more aesthetically pleasing on the eye but Borsalino being the vastly stronger character with superior all round stats including reflexes, speed of hand, intelligence and defence would be able to inject more power and generally be more effective with his swordplay. 

I stand by it, Borsalino takes this comfortably. It's the same way how Tashigi who may be more polished with a sword would still get absolutely destroyed by Garp who's wielding nothing but a sword to use in battle. 



Sakazuki said:


> Except that the Whitebeard pirates were the greatest crew in the world who were spoken of in the same breath as the other emperors even after losing the Emperor himself, 2 core crew members and their bronze getting crippled. While the special Olympics......oh well.



Bear in mind that out of the 1,617 members of Whitebeard's mob there are only four who are at a level that we can even at the very least begin to notice. I'm obviously referring to Whitebeard, Marco, Jozu and Vista who compromised the majority of the entire WB pirates power and within that quartet Whitebeard himself being the one who shouldered most of that. 

The rest of the herd were so shit they barely even got a mention. They're at the level where even someone outside the top tier realm (perhaps a Smoker?) could humiliate them without even really breaking a sweat. 4 out of 1617, so that means that more than *99.75%* of the WB pirates fall under that category. 

Anyway, when you're surrounded by that much mediocrity and crapness it's no surprise that someone with the limited skills and strength like Vista is able to stand out and make a name for himself.


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## Bearclaws (Sep 25, 2013)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> What people need to appreciate here is that whilst Vista may officially be regarded as having better "technical" swordsmanship skills, that doesn't necessarily mean that he'll win here.
> 
> Vista may be able to do some fancy but ultimately pointless pirouette before he attacks and make his swordplay look more aesthetically pleasing on the eye but Borsalino being the vastly stronger character with superior all round stats including reflexes, speed of hand, intelligence and defence would be able to inject more power and generally be more effective with his swordplay.
> 
> ...



There's so much bias in this post. 

1.) The gap between Vista and the admirals is smaller than you make it out to be.
2.) There's no way that Smoker is *easily* taking out members of Whitebeard's crew outside the top 4 combatants.
3.) If we're talking about a *pure* sword fight (without punching, kicking, grappling, devil fruit abilities, rokushiki, haki, etc.) then Vista is probably winning this.

I'm sure that Kizaru is not as proficient with the sword as someone who is constantly training and battling wielding them. Kizaru is the better overall fighter but in regards to swordplay he is weaker than Vista. Don't underestimate the boost in strength that the pika pika no mi gives him. 

Also there's no way he's beating Doflamingo *and* Jozu. Especially when Jozu's extremely tough defense is a hard counter to Kizaru's destructive offense. This is like me saying that Ace is stronger than both Post Timeskip Smoker and Vergo. He would probably beat both individually but there is no way he is winning against them together.


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## Slenderman (Sep 25, 2013)

Bearclaws said:


> There's so much bias in this post.
> 
> 1.) The gap between Vista and the admirals is smaller than you make it out to be.
> 2.) There's no way that Smoker is *easily* taking out members of Whitebeard's crew outside the top 4 combatants.
> ...



I doubt the gap between Vista and the admirals is small. Vista's best feat is fighting a Mihawk who was daydreaming about Luffy. We also don't know how strong everybody other then the four is. I'm sure Smoker could beat Curiel who's best feat is fighting Moria who lost to the SH's.  AK's best feat against a swordsman is fighting Ray who is a master in swordsman ship. Vista's best feat is fighting a daydreaming Mihawk who wasn't focusing on the fight.


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## Bearclaws (Sep 25, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> I doubt the gap between Vista and the admirals is small. Vista's best feat is fighting a Mihawk who was daydreaming about Luffy. We also don't know how strong everybody other then the four is. I'm sure Smoker could beat Curiel who's best feat is fighting Moria who lost to the SH's.  AK's best feat against a swordsman is fighting Ray who is a master in swordsman ship. Vista's best feat is fighting a daydreaming Mihawk who wasn't focusing on the fight.



I'm not saying the gap between Vista and the admirals is small or negligible. I just said that it's smaller than Admiral Kizaru made it out to be. The guy was clashing evenly with Mihawk, who he had never met before. We don't know which of them is stronger as they were essentially portrayed as equals. The only reason people underrate Vista is because of his feat of not damaging Akainu's tangible body, which has proved to be one of the most inconsistent and non-sensical feats in the manga. Even if there was some reason behind that feat, we don't know enough about haki to assume that the reason Vista couldn't touch Akainu is because he isn't in the same league. Current logic dictates that if Akainu's haki is truly significantly stronger, he should have repelled those attacks not cancelled out the haki infused within them.

Smoker may be able to beat Curiel, i'm not disputing that, but it won't be an easy fight. People give Moria less credit than he deserves but the guy was stalling for time, waiting for the sun to incinerate them. He was severely weakened after taking a massive pounding from nightmare Luffy.

Also, can you please show me a panel that indicates that Mihawk was daydreaming?


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## trance (Sep 25, 2013)

> Also, can you please show me a panel that indicates that Mihawk was daydreaming?



He wasn't "daydreaming". After acknowledging Vista, he gave one more glance at Luffy and commented how his ability to make an ally out of anyone is dangerous.


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## Bearclaws (Sep 25, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> He wasn't "daydreaming". After acknowledging Vista, he gave one more glance at Luffy and commented how his ability to make an ally out of anyone is dangerous.



His guard would still be up. There's no way that Mihawk would be fighting a war with his guard down or wasting his time on an opponent that could be defeated in a more timely manner. It's like me saying that Law is casually fighting Doflamingo and Fujitora because he had the time to make a call to Nami.


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## trance (Sep 25, 2013)

Bearclaws said:


> His guard would still be up. There's no way that Mihawk would be fighting a war with his guard down or wasting his time on an opponent that could be defeated in a more timely manner. It's like me saying that Law is casually fighting Doflamingo and Fujitora because he had the time to make a call to Nami.



Did I say he did or didn't have his guard up? 

I'm just saying he wasn't "daydreaming" like Slender said he was.


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## Bearclaws (Sep 25, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> Did I say he did or didn't have his guard up?
> 
> I'm just saying he wasn't "daydreaming" like Slender said he was.



Oh, then I completely agree with you. I wasn't sure how to contextualize your statement.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 25, 2013)

Serious Mihawk, like if he was facing EOS Zoro mindset, would trash Vista in one shot by cutting him vertically in two.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Sep 25, 2013)

Scenario 2 Vista gets raped....
Change WB's bisento with a sword and he cant beat Mihawk right  ?


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## Bearclaws (Sep 25, 2013)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Scenario 2 Vista gets raped....
> Change WB's bisento with a sword and he cant beat Mihawk right  ?



Whitebeard could still channel his quakes through a sword.

Luffy wielded a sword against Arlong and a lot of you may call it CiS but he was nowhere near Arlong's level despite being equal or greater in physical strength. You can't just pick up a sword and swing it around like you're an abusive butcher beating your wife with a slab of beef. Bad swordsmanship is easily read/countered.


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## RF (Sep 26, 2013)

> Bear in mind that out of the 1,617 members of Whitebeard's mob there are only four who are at a level that we can even at the very least begin to notice. I'm obviously referring to Whitebeard, Marco, Jozu and Vista who compromised the majority of the entire WB pirates power and within that quartet Whitebeard himself being the one who shouldered most of that.
> 
> *The rest of the herd were so shit they barely even got a mention.* They're at the level where even someone outside the top tier realm (perhaps a Smoker?) could humiliate them without even really breaking a sweat. 4 out of 1617, so that means that more than 99.75% of the WB pirates fall under that category.
> 
> Anyway, when you're surrounded by that much mediocrity and crapness it's no surprise that someone with the limited skills and strength like Vista is able to stand out and make a name for himself.



First of all, remember Blackbeard? He was a no-name among Whitebeard's massive crew, yet he had the strength far surpassing nearly every commander. Taking this into account, you can't just consider any character not explicitly named practically worthless. Most would get punked by Smoker, of course, but some may do just the opposite. You have no way of knowing. 

Second of all, you're massively downplaying the other commanders outside of the top 3. They were all monsters respected by Jimbe, 7 of them were entirely confident in getting past Kizaru, Rakuyo had a singular clash with Kizaru _alone_ and emerged scratchless etc. etc. Of course, there's a hierarchy among them as well, with people like Atmos and Curiel clearly being on the lower end, but acting like they're completely worthless trash is absurd when they've been emphasized as monsters at just about any turn. That's why Akainu had Vice Admirals, Pacifistas and a ton of marines standing alongside him when he battled the Whitebeard pirates.

Sure, just like any other emperor crew, they had lots of fodder. Shanks' crew will have a ton of fodder as well, that doesn't mean that being the greatest gunslinger among the Red Hair pirates is meaningless. The Marine Headquarters had a ton of fodder as well, but they also had their elites. The Vice Admirals were matched against the New World Captains and the commanders, while the Whitebeard pirates monster trio were as a group somewhat equal to the 3 admirals. Vista has greater hype than any other commander not named Jozu and Marco, so we can infer he was the next best thing after them. Would you consider the greatest swordsman among the VA's a fluke because there's also a ton of fodder in their organization? I hope not, because that's even crazier talk. And this is disregarding the fact that Vista should be superior to any of them by no insignificant amount.

Overall, I agree with you conclusion that Kizaru would defeat him be it in a sword battle or not, but you're not giving Vista enough credit here.


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## tanman (Sep 26, 2013)

Definitely seeing Jozu and Doflamingo taking this with very high difficulty.


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## Slenderman (Sep 26, 2013)

Bearclaws said:


> I'm not saying the gap between Vista and the admirals is small or negligible. I just said that it's smaller than Admiral Kizaru made it out to be. The guy was clashing evenly with Mihawk, who he had never met before. We don't know which of them is stronger as they were essentially portrayed as equals. The only reason people underrate Vista is because of his feat of not damaging Akainu's tangible body, which has proved to be one of the most inconsistent and non-sensical feats in the manga. Even if there was some reason behind that feat, we don't know enough about haki to assume that the reason Vista couldn't touch Akainu is because he isn't in the same league. Current logic dictates that if Akainu's haki is truly significantly stronger, he should have repelled those attacks not cancelled out the haki infused within them.
> 
> Smoker may be able to beat Curiel, i'm not disputing that, but it won't be an easy fight. People give Moria less credit than he deserves but the guy was stalling for time, waiting for the sun to incinerate them. He was severely weakened after taking a massive pounding from nightmare Luffy.
> 
> Also, can you please show me a panel that indicates that Mihawk was daydreaming?



I'll agree that daydremaing was not the right word but Vista is still weaker then the admirals and the gap is noticeable. Don't try to cover up him and Marco failing to hit Akainu. Akainu's damage intake is not not inconsistent. The man got up from 2 WB quakes and went on to destroy Ivancov, Jinbe and Curiel. Vista is not admiral level. Marco who should be the strongest also failed to effectively hurt any of the admirals. Mihawk is the WSS he is the strongest swordsman. If you question if Vista is stronger then him then this debate is useless.


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## trance (Sep 26, 2013)

Vista is no slouch but he is for sure weaker than the Admirals.


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## Zooted (Sep 26, 2013)

I mean Vista and Marco's haki combined couldn't hurt Akainu's logia defense


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## jNdee~ (Sep 26, 2013)

WellyFish said:


> I mean Vista and Marco's haki combined couldn't hurt Akainu's logia defense



Haki defense you mean


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## Zooted (Sep 26, 2013)

Battousai said:


> Haki defense you mean



Yea that's what I meant.


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## banzam522 (Oct 4, 2013)

indeed..speed will determine the victor...the two are capable fighters however, they can't fight a guy with a speed of light even they have incredible fighting skill/haki/df


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## Coruscation (Oct 5, 2013)

Depends on how much Joker can really hurt an Admiral. Two Jozus would win and Doffy is somewhere around the same level but the difference is that Jozu's ability to take on and damage an Admiral head-on 1v1 is confirmed while Oda has consistently avoided putting Doflamingo in that situation. The Logia Admirals can potentially null even Haki-imbued attacks by virtue of their Haki defense as seen multiple times so it becomes further questionable still if Doflamingo is capable of being a game-breaker against Kizaru.


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## Cant Get Enough Hype (Oct 8, 2013)

Im new to posting to the forums but i would always read topics that interested me. Up until just now i never understood what you guys meant when you said "AK"

As for this fight as long as the dirty-guy DD can maneuver around any fatal attacks the duo would take it. It would be easier for them to find an opening. God knows Jaws is waiting to brilliant punk the shit out of anyone who looks away for a second. Sure kizaru would have a kind of aerial advantage, but hed probably just chuck a mountain... I was also thinking of the tag team idea of DD controlling Jaws..

As for the bonus.. If kizaru can only use his sword i dont see how hell win with anything but extreme diff IF he does in fact win... Swordplay is what vista does and if someone like Mihawk acknowledges him im pretty sure he could take a handicapped admiral. The whole point of Kizaru is either to pierce with speeding lazers or extremely fast concussive force.. neither come from a sword.


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## RF (Oct 8, 2013)

> Im new to posting to the forums but i would always read topics that interested me. Up until just now i never understood what you guys meant when you said "AK"



Welcome to the forums. AK is just an abbreviation of the username "Admiral Kizaru", and as you can see, the said user already posted several times in this thread.


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