# The Flash vs Goku



## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

*RULES:*
The two people are given the knowledge of the Living Tribunal and The Spectre and the Spectre rules DB universe and Tribunal rules DC.  Flash and Goku appear on battlefield and they must fight to death to save their universe.  Basically a no-holds-bar fight to the death.

*The Flash III*
*Real Name:* Wallace "Wally" West AKA Kid Flash
*Age:* 23, *Height:* 6', *Weight:* 175 lbs.
*Eyes:* Green, *Hair:* Red
*Marital Status: *Married to Linda Park (Flash #142 Oct.1998)
*Occupation:* Adventurer
*Known Relatives:* Rudolph and Mary West (parents), Iris West Allen (aunt), Barry Allen (uncle)
*Group Affiliation:* Justice League of America, former member of the Teen Titans
*Base of Operations:* Keystone City, Kansas

*Overview:* There is little doubt today that Wally West is considered to be one of the fastest living things on the face of the Earth. There are a few superhumans who can sustain levels of superhuman speed on par with the Flash. Superman, Captain Marvel, and Impulse can reach speeds that can compare with the Flash, but few other than Impulse have the wide range of powers available to the Flash. 
*Origin of Powers:* The Flash derives his speed from the modification of his body by the interaction of the mysterious Speed Force from an unknown dimension of speed. This energy force is believed to have bestown its benefits on a multitude of DC Earth's speedsters including the Flash's predecessors, Barry Allen, Jay Garrick and Max Mercury. These speedsters all profess some form of interaction and the level of interaction indicates their relative speed ceilings and capabilities. Most share some or all of the same abilities. 
 The source of the Flash's powers, were believed to be derived from the bolt of lightning that struck a rack of chemicals in the lab of his uncle, the previous Flash, Barry Allen. Such an accident had also occurred to Barry Allen and gave him his powers as well. After the death of Barry Allen during the Crisis on Infinite Earths, Wally's speed-derived powers had begun to wane and at one point were completely unreliable. Their loss, believed to be psychological, was due in part to the death of Barry Allen. 
After Wally's adjustment, Wally's powers began to increase and eventually approach their previous levels. Recently, Wally West has reached new speed plateaus and is actually believed to have passed beyond into the Speed Dimension, the now-believed source of many speedsters powers. After his cross-over into this dimension, Wally seemed to possess all of the powers of his predecessors and a range of abilities never before exhibited by any Flash. 
*Powers:
*
*Speed Force Aura:* The Flash's body is surrounded by what he calls his "speed force aura". This aura protects him and anyone who is running with him or carried by him, from the effects of using his speed. This includes friction and airborne particulate matter. It may also protect him from injury from high speed impacts such as punches he delivers and receives from his opponents. He does seem to possess some level of superhuman resistance to injury but this does not extend far past normal physical interactions, as received from normal combat.
*Molecular Control: *The Flash's powers allow him to perform a number of speed-related feats. The Flash has always possessed the ability to control his speed and angular momentum at the MOLECULAR level, and control his molecular interactions to allow his body to pass through any substance. There have been only a few superdense materials that the Flash has not been able to penetrate with this power. Certain forcefields also seem to negate this power. His power allow him to run along the surface of bodies of water and up the sides of buildings.
*Increased Perceptions: *The Flash possesses the ability to alter his perceptions so that falling objects can appear to be standing still and can be caught and moved back to their normal position. He can do this so quickly as to have it happen invisibly to the normal human eye. The Flash's reaction time is so increased as to perform feats of speed such as removing the momentum from bullets and fast moving objects thrown at him or at others.
*Supercharged Brain Activity:* The Flash's mental abilities are also increased in speed, simple computations can be done at lightning speeds, and his ability to perform normal feats at increased speeds has allow him to build hundreds of force field generators in a matter of hours, move sandbags to cover a beach or search an entire area for something as small as a paper clip. Wally can also read as superspeed, but rarely takes advantage of his ability to learn at increased speeds, although, Jay Garrick has done so and has become a jack of all trades in several disciplines and languages. 
*Super Speed Running:* It appears that the Flash may run at any speed that he thinks is possible, but there may be physical limits to his speed. Theorectically, speeds greater than Mach 10, are dangerous to the people and to the environment. This speed would still be the equivalent to approximately 128 miles per second; allowing him to cross the United States in about 23 seconds, or circle the world in about 3 minutes. The Flash rarely achieves such speed in populated areas due to the effects of sonic disruptions and air displacements. His cruising speeds are probably around 90-150 miles per hour (1.5 - 2.5 miles per second). This is fast enough to move through most cities and around people without causing too much disruption to the population and slow enough for him to register everything he sees clearly. If he choses, Wally can approach the speed of light, and doing so, enters the Speed Force dimension. If he chooses to continue to run at light speed, he can use the Speed Force dimension for a form of haphazard Time Travel.
*Sharing the Force:* Since his interaction with the Speed Force, he may also lend his speed and angular momentum to another object or person. This may allow others to run alongside with the Flash. He may still allow his molecular structure to pass through object but now after he passes through an object, the object is now supercharged with a chaotic energy, and explodes seconds after his passing through it. His range of powers seems to have been increased significantly and he is now the fastest Flash to have ever lived. If he shares the Speed Force with another meta with superspeed capabilities such as Superman, that metahuman can now exceed the speed of light but does not become aware of the Speed Dimension.
*Speed Feats:* The Flash can also perform a variety of superspeed feats such as:
He can strike a single opponent hundreds of times in a second or multiple opponents two or three times in a second.
He can disarm, or jam any number of opponents weapons before they are even aware of his movement.
Hurl small projectiles at hypersonic velocities.
Pluck speeding projectiles from the air.
The creation of wind based vortecies that can act as barriers to movement, funnels for toxic gasses, or vacuum chambers.
He can spin his arms to create directed funnels of hurricane speed air that can knock down barriers or reduce the speed of a falling object. Now with his control of inertia, he can probably reduce the speed of a falling object directly by applying the speed force in reverse, to leech momemtum from the object.
He can run across bodies of water, up the sides of buildings, and by spinning like a helicopter, he can even perform a limited kind of flight. Since his power is a quantum/molecular phenomenon, it is theoretically possible for the Flash to be able to fly just as other metas do, (and there have been other flying speedsters in the past, such as the deceased Johnny Quick,) because he can control his absolute molecular energy and direction and force it in the direction he wished to move without running.
He can also impart molecular energy to a target to increase molecular movement, as he did against the water being called Flow, boiling him into steam for a short time.


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## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

*Son Goku

* 


 Son Goku is the primary star of Akira Toriyama's Dragonball and Dragonball Z, a wild martial arts manga/anime that's been at the top of Japan's rating lists for years. It features (as is usual for this sort of thing) a whole cast of heroes, villains and assorted oddball characters, most with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men. Characters in the series can fly, project intense bolts of energy, fight like nobodies business and generally do all the things one would expect from western superhero comics, minus the spandex shorts and angst.
 The character presented below is based on materal taken from Dragon Ball Z movies 1 - 8, with some additional input based on files I found on the internet. I can only presume that he's demonstrated even more outlandish powers in the manga and anime series.
   Now, I have to admit, anyone glancing at Goku's point total is in for a shock.  He's almost _1000_ points!  This my seem like a silly amount, but hey, I _downpowered_ him for this write-up! In DBZ, the fighters regularly shatter mountains, obiterate planets and reduce the surrounding landscape to ruins in the course of a fight. I've seen characters blasted from the Earth through the _sun_ from an attack!  Besides, it's not like I figured anyone would actually use him as is... 
*Description*

 Son Goku is of average height, with a well muscled and well defined build. His hair is thick, black and points in a number of different directions. Usually, Goku wears a orange, short-sleeved 'jumpsuit' over a dark blue shirt. Dark blue boots and a belt sash complete the outfit.
 In Super Saiya-jin mode, Goku's hair turns bright gold and his whole body starts to glow. His 'power rating' hits an insane level and going to Super Saiya-jin will easily shatter the power scanners used in DBZ to register a fighter's ability. At Super Saiya-jin Level 2, his hair grows out a bit, at Super Saiya-jin Level 3, Goku's face grows leaner and his hair reaches his waist.
*Powers*



 Most of Goku's powers center around his ability to summon and manipulate Ki energy. As he is a memeber of the race known as the Sayia-jin, he has the ablilty to tap into the depths of his anger and rage and become a 'Super Saiya-jin'. When doing so, his physical abilties are heightened to an unbelievable level. He becomes faster, stronger, tougher and over all, more powerful. There is a level of power beyond this; it is called Super Saiya-jin Level 2. At this point, Goku doesn't loose the affects of his aid at the same rate anymore and can stay at this power level for exteneded periods. Beyond this, is Super Saiya-jin Level 3, which dwarfs levels 1 and two completely. 
 I didn't try and simulate SSJ Levels 2 & 3 in the following write-up.
 Goku has demonstrated the ability to throw an assortment of energy atatcks, his most famous being the 'Kamehameha' energy blast. The 'Kamehameha' and Genkei-dama are usually weapons of last resort, used after _nothing_ else has affected his target. The Genkei-dama is often created while Goku lies battered upon the ground, presumely beaten by his opponent. His Ki blasts, on the other hand are used during the course of any of his fights to slow down and harrass his enemies.
   Flight is a power possessed by just about everyone; teleportation, though, is known only to a select few.  Goku was _very_ surprised when a character by the name of Metal Kooler used it against him.
 The ability to deflect energy attacks is so widespead, that people trying to simulate characters from DBZ might consider placing the limitation "Can Be Blocked" (-1/2) on everyone's energy blasts.
   Yes, Goku does know Kami-sama and Kariou-sama personally and has been asked by them for help more than once.
*Disadvantages*

   Goku has a wife (Chi Chi) and a son, Gohan.  Although Chi CHi is a capable fighter, she is _nowhere_ in the league of the primary characters of the series. Gohan, is quite powerful and can reach Super-Saiya-Jin level 2 much easier than Goku ever could. Later, Goku gains a second son, Goten.
 The Red Ribbion Army has pestered Goku repetedly over the years. After trashing most of them, a number of androids developed to aid the RRA showed up to make his life _really_ miserable.
 Goku has had to deal with a incredible range of enemies and opponents. Most don't survive the encounter, but there's always a new one out there. Goku has stated that one of his favorite hobbies is 'Fighting really powerful opponents'; he also doesn't know when to give up, and will tackle anyone he comes across.


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## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

Dragonball Theory

Albert Einstein theorized that time and gravity are a close link. He also said if you travel at the speed of light your body will age slower than people that are not. If you travel at the speed of light for 10 years, came back to earth, you'll be 10,000 years into the future (or something like that). In 1976 a physicist theorized you can travel back in time by getting and object with a gravity 100,000 stronger than our sun's, stand at the edge of it, and spin the object close to light speed. The exact opposite of going to the future in which you must go at the speed of light. 


 Remember, the higher ones gravity or weight in proportion to one's relative gravity, the faster time would travel. To an ant, life seems just as long as to an elephant. That's why flies have much better reflexes. 


Now, imagine the Earth, the Sun and a blackhole laying on top of a rubber sheet. Earth will bend the sheet a little and the Sun will bend the sheet a lot because its heavier. A Black Hole on the other hand will break through the sheet. The Black Hole has such a powerful gravity that even light cannot escape. The Black Hole is quite literally making it's own time frame and own universe. In other words, if you bend gravity, you bend time. Any physicist will tell you this. 


    Now your reading this and saying to yourself "What the heck does this have      to do with anything!" 
Well one night I connected this theory with why in DBZ they have really fast reflexes and move so fast! As one recalls, in DBZ they obviously move faster than the speed of sound without making sonic booms. In the next paragraph I hope I will make DBZ scientifically possible. 


Did you ever notice why gravity seems to be the main topic of massive powerlevel increases? That's because Goku is able to adapt to lets say 450 times gravity. To him, normal now is 450 times gravity. Everything in the normal gravity world just seems slow when he's charged up. Sure, there are other ways of become ungodly powerful in DBZ without gravity training, but this is concrete evidence. Goku in which now mastered time a gravity himself because earth's gravity is no longer an obstacle. 


Couple paragraphs ago I said that DBZ characters usually don't make sonic booms even though they travel much faster than the speed of sound. Well, think about it. Vegeta is like a black hole, his power is so strong that he's able (you guessed it) bend time and gravity himself! History lesson: In 1996 a French physicist proposed on can travel at the speed of light without actually going the speed of light. If you can squeeze the gravity ahead of you, you can get past the object faster but still going at the same speed. That's because there's less distance between you and your desired point. What Vegeta does is bend gravity ahead of him so he can get closer, lets say, Recoom, without having to break the law of physics which does not permit traveling close to the speed of light. The higher one's powerlevel, the higher one's "gravity". So Vegeta gets to Recoom without actually traveling faster than the speed of sound in which ladies and gentleman, without making a sonic boom. 


Why do you think when character charge up, they strangely alter gravity around them? Or when two character lock up, the ground around them creates a crater? They create their own gravity. Akira Toriyama is a smart fellow. He probably knew this without actually knowing why. 

Being capable of altering the gravity around you would in turn make every dragonball character capable of traveling faster than the speed of light--which basically means faster than The Flash.


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## Scared Link (Dec 7, 2005)

Sorry for all that effort. But Goku obviously wins this.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 7, 2005)

Jesus Crist Luckey. Huge post, and very nice synpsis of the Flash. In true I didn't read all of either yet, since I pretty much know exactly what they say more or less, However I must give you props for writing so much.  Reps!

Also, Ps- the flash wins if he just starts of fighting seriously. 

And Goku wins if he starts several thousands of feet in the air and just blows up the earth, actually even then the flash could still win. Flash really can't lose, he's broken.

^and even if I take your post (Luckey) into account about Dbz chars being able to go at the speed of light, without acutely going at it. Well um Flash can go beyond the speed of light anyway.


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## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

shika shika boo said:
			
		

> Jesus Crist Luckey. Huge post, and very nice synpsis of the Flash. In true I didn't read all of either yet, since I pretty much know exactly what they say more or less, However I must give you props for writing so much. Reps!
> 
> Also, Ps- the flash wins if he just starts of fighting seriously.
> 
> ...


They bend gravity and time in front of them so they can increase their speeds to beyond that of light; however, while moving forward you head backward in time up until the point where the attack appears instantaneous.


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## Mukuro (Dec 7, 2005)

Gokou would obliterate The Flash.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 7, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> They bend gravity and time in front of them so they can increase their speeds to beyond that of light; however, while moving forward you head backward in time up until the point where the attack appears instantaneous.



Okay now I have fully read the Dragonball theory part. -COOL!- Also note, I know little about sciene and junk. 

So your saying that Dbz chars can literally alter the very fabricate of reality, due to the overwhelaming power of gravity they posses, that is determined by their powerlevel. And, that proof of this is that when certain characters like Goku are charging up their powers levels, because there own power source exceeds that of the earth gravational filed, it causes a disruption and alters landscape, air and facets of everything with a lower gravity around them ? 

Hmmph, but then how do you explain thier Kamehameha and energy blast. Those are contained sources of gravity that, should be altering everything around them, regardless of direction. However, this was disproven during the tournament where Gokents and Trunuks where fighting and trunks simply moved his beam upwards to avoid the crowd. The crowd comment was this "they simply say a bright light flashing at them. The air was no changed, nothing was! 

Wouldn't that mean that Dbz chars are operating more through riding lightwaves or something, because the blast created a light, without disrupting anything around it. Therefore they do not alter gravity but instead alter lightwaves and how those waves can register in individual perceptions. Ie the replacement/ tech thing that was used so much in db, where they leave an afterimage.

Lastly, the Flash uses a power sources that can remove speed, from other... but then if dbz chars can alter gravity, are they not also susecepatble to the flash simply taking thier speed. The speed force is like an infinte source of energy that syphons away all forms of movement. For example the flash can take speed to the point where you can no longer move. Therefore I can say that the Flash has the same type of control the Dbz chars have, except more. the flash has no boundries, because the speed force does not. His power level is infinite, whereas dbz chars are finite. I'll say it again the flash is broken.


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## DarkLordDragon (Dec 7, 2005)

Lucky that's one cool description, I like it thanks alot man this helped me alot, at least helped me alot and proved that Flash can't move 700 trillion x the speed of light as some people claimed  

Btw I think Goku would win, but I once heard that Flash can travel back to time because of his speed and he can kill Goku when he was born but he need to travel to Saiyan planet to do so ;p


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## Seany (Dec 7, 2005)

Great discription! 
I think goku wins this because he packs more of a punch than the flash, and im sure he can keep up with him


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## BattousaiMS (Dec 7, 2005)

Flash Wins if he can time travel in this battle. All he has to do is time travel back to the time Goku first arrived on earth and kill him then.


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## RAGING BONER (Dec 7, 2005)

Speed is not enough to defeat bed head.


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## Gene (Dec 7, 2005)

BattousaiMS said:
			
		

> Flash Wins if he can time travel in this battle. All he has to do is time travel back to the time Goku first arrived on earth and kill him then.



And where will he get the info on when and where Goku first arrived on Earth?


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## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

Techno Goku said:
			
		

> And where will he get the info on when and where Goku first arrived on Earth?


 The Watcher


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## Gene (Dec 7, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> The Watcher



Sorry, but I don't know who The Watcher is...:sad My bet is still on Goku, he has _both_ speed and power. And if Flash actually starts winning somehow, Goku can just blow up the planet and call it a tie.


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## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

Cartoon said:
			
		

> Great discription!
> I think goku wins this because he packs more of a punch than the flash, and im sure he can keep up with him


If you talk about power, the Flash can infinite mass punch goku.


Infinite mass is a theory regarding physics.  Basically it states that when a mass approaches the speed of light, its mass would = infinite.

If you want to disregard the infinite mass punch, then it will be down to power vs speed; in this instance, I can just direct you to a Physics formula:

F = MA

FORCE =  MASS x ACCELERATION

Basically the faster the punch, the more damage it will deal.


EXAMPLE:

Goku's Punch = 3kg x 5,000 m/s
Goku's Punch = 15,000 newtons

Flash's punch = 2kg x 10,000 m/s
Flash's punch - 20,000 newtons


Flash would deal more damage if the aforementioned example were used in reality.


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## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

Techno Goku said:
			
		

> Sorry, but I don't know who The Watcher is...:sad My bet is still on Goku, he has _both_ speed and power. And if Flash actually starts winning somehow, Goku can just blow up the planet and call it a tie.


The Flash would merely steal the ki balls speed and dodge the blast, leaving the ki ball to lie motionless where it was stopped.


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## Chamcham Trigger (Dec 7, 2005)

Uhhh I'm sorry, but Goku still wins this one.  He's quite fast himself, and it's really hard to tell how fast he moves, compared to the flash as well.  He might be slower, I'm not too sure since they really don't take space and time that seriously in DB/Z.  Goku still has more advantages though in the end.

I have to say that this was a kickass essay though.


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## Gene (Dec 7, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> The Flash would merely steal the ki balls speed and dodge the blast, leaving the ki ball to lie motionless where it was stopped.



Wouldn't it eventually regain it's speed? I doubt that the ki wave/ball will stand still in the air forever.


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## BladeofTheChad (Dec 7, 2005)

well, im going with Flash...because I love the Flash .


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## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

Flash's mind thinks practically at the speed of light, he would have thought of trillions of different calculations and events to take out Goku before Goku can even count to ONE. Goku needed a fucking spaceship for godsakes to get to Namek. Flash could run to another planet and travel faster than the speed of light. He travels in the Speed Force dimension where one time he actually ran so fast as to go back and see himself in his childhood talking to his imaginary friend who he was racing with for the sake of the Earth. Also, when and IF goku were to punch him, he'd just vibrate his body and go into phase mode and completely iradicate Goku's arm. Before Goku could even react, Flash could walk into goku and completely disintegrate him.


Here's a list of different turn of events:


Goku tries Kamehameha:
1) Flash steals the speed from the wave and uses it to gain a boost and go right through it and infinite mass punch Goku
2) Flash vibrates his body and obliterates the wave as it touches his body
3) Flash lunges forward travelling in his speed force dimension and travels back before goku fired the wave and he kills goku with infinite mass punch
4) Flash vibrates through the ground and makes Goku think he died, but then after Goku investigates he kills goku by vibrating through his body.
5) Flash twirls his arms creating a tornado and reverses the blast back to goku.

Goku Instant Transmissions behind Flash:
INFORMATION: Flash was said to have outraced instantaneous travel so he would in turn react as soon as Goku would appear and then he would appear behind goku instead before Goku would realize he had fully instant transimissioned.

Goku Spirit bombed him:
INFORMATION:  Cant spirit bomb good 

Goku fought him fist to fist:
1) Flash has infinite mass and can withstand it since he has his suit.
2) Goku has limitations
PHYSICS EXPLAINS IT:

Goku's punch at speed of light
Goku's punch = 1kg x 186,000,000 mps
Flash's punch at speed of light
Flash's punch = infinite x 186,000,000 mps

Flash deals infinite damage with one punch. He can obliterate anything in one punch. This may make him overpowered, but it makes him win.


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## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

Techno Goku said:
			
		

> Wouldn't it eventually regain it's speed? I doubt that the ki wave/ball will stand still in the air forever.


No because he stole it's speed, it may fall due to gravity, though I don't know if ki has mass.  If it does then it will merely fall at 9.8 m/s^2.

Speedforce steals the momentum of other objects and applies it to itself.  Speedforce is essentially the suit that The Flash wears.  So it would basically change it's velocity (direction) and fall downward rather than toward flash;however, it will be traveling as if a penny were dropped or a ball were dropped from the same height (NEGLECTING AIR RESISTANCE)


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## Chamcham Trigger (Dec 7, 2005)

Yeah, but goku doesn't need to do the Kamehame ha to hit him.  He could send a blast that's not a streame so that the flash wouldn't ride it towards him.  Oh and then there's the fact that he can probably aim in the wrong direction.  Plus whose to say that the Flash's punch could even hurt goku?  He eats bullets and missles and stuff like that for breakfast.


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## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

[SIZE=-1]A bullet of mass m=5g moving horizontally at the speed of 500m/s would merely equate to 2500 newtons.

Flash's punch is *BEYOND* [/SIZE]*99999999999999999999999999999999999**99999999999999999*^_99999999999999999999999999999999999999



_The punch is consisted of a mass that is INFINITE as in there is no limitation in the entire number system for it's number.  The number is unimaginable and incomprehensible.  It destroys anything that is touched.


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## TDM (Dec 7, 2005)

Wow, after all that, I say The Flash wins. Infinite damage, man that's nuts. Of course, we're assuming The Flash is serious from the start, otherwise he is totally screwed.


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## Gene (Dec 7, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> Flash's mind thinks practically at the speed of light, he would have thought of trillions of different calculations and events to take out Goku before Goku can even count to ONE. Goku needed a fucking spaceship for godsakes to get to Namek. Flash could run to another planet and travel faster than the speed of light.



- I think the mind thing is based on how smart he is. You can have all the time in the world to solve a problem, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to solve it.
- How can Flash run to another planet?


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## RealaMoreno (Dec 7, 2005)

Cell could beat Flash, for the simple fact he can breathe in space.

Cell instant transmissions to space, fires a beam to destroy the planet.

I want to take into account the infinite damage and flash so fast you won't even move, but Flash is a cocky person, so he'll lolly gag for second. Also, doesn't it take a bit of time for flash to increase his speed that much and couldn't the opponent be able to instant transmission away long enough?

Just wonder, I don't know much about Flash, but I know his speed beats Goku's.


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## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

*Speed Feats:* He can run across bodies of water, up the sides of buildings, and by spinning like a helicopter, he can even perform a limited kind of flight. Since his power is a quantum/molecular phenomenon, it is theoretically possible for the Flash to be able to fly just as other metas do, (and there have been other flying speedsters in the past, such as the deceased Johnny Quick,) because he can control his absolute molecular energy and direction and force it in the direction he wished to move without running.

*Supercharged Brain Activity:* The Flash's mental abilities are also increased in speed, simple computations can be done at lightning speeds, and his ability to perform normal feats at increased speeds has allow him to build hundreds of force field generators in a matter of hours, move sandbags to cover a beach or search an entire area for something as small as a paper clip. Wally can also read as superspeed, but rarely takes advantage of his ability to learn at increased speeds, although, Jay Garrick has done so and has become a jack of all trades in several disciplines and languages.

(he can force his body on a molecular level to move anywhere without moving his feet in less than an instant)
(ever heard of a porshe going 0-65 in 5 seconds?--Flash goes 0 to lightspeed so fast it's untracable if he was going any speed less than that of whatever speed his end result is.)

Due to his rapid metabolic rate, he doesnt really need to breathe;hence he will be capable of being in outerspace for long lengths of time.


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## Kamendex (Dec 7, 2005)

RealaMoreno said:
			
		

> Cell could beat Flash, for the simple fact he can breathe in space.
> 
> Cell instant transmissions to space, fires a beam to destroy the planet.
> 
> ...



He cant just IT to space...IT requires you to lock onto a ki signature and by the time Cell concentrates on a ki signature Flash would've run around him a trillion times.


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## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

Kamendex said:
			
		

> He cant just IT to space...IT requires you to lock onto a ki signature and by the time Cell concentrates on a ki signature Flash would've run around him a trillion times.


I wouldn't say a TRILLION times, but you do get the idea of just how fast Flash is.


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## chakra25 (Dec 7, 2005)

Gokou is probably the fastest Z team... he's no doubt faster than Flash, if not, the same speed. He can move at warp speeds, he has super human strength, and he doesn't need kame hame ha to beat Flash. It's an overkill.

Look at how he dodged the Ginu Force attack (the blue guy and red guy with white hair) while appear to stand still. Those guys were attacking at hyper sonic speed and Gokou managed to dodge all of their attacks barely moving. This was before he went Super Saiyan... imagine what Super Saiyan 3 can do...

Don't forget that Gokou was trained under martial arts experts as opposed to Flash. Flash just know how to street brawl with super speed.


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## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

Sadly enough, I'd say Flash VS The Z Fighters would have been more fair...


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## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

chakra25 said:
			
		

> Gokou is probably the fastest Z team... he's no doubt faster than Flash, if not, the same speed. He can move at warp speeds, he has super human strength, and he doesn't need kame hame ha to beat Flash. It's an overkill.
> 
> Look at how he dodged the Ginu Force attack (the blue guy and red guy with white hair) while appear to stand still. Those guys were attacking at hyper sonic speed and Gokou managed to dodge all of their attacks barely moving. This was before he went Super Saiyan... imagine what Super Saiyan 3 can do...
> 
> Don't forget that Gokou was trained under martial arts experts as opposed to Flash. Flash just know how to street brawl with super speed.


Flash doesnt need martial arts, he has infinite mass.


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## Kamendex (Dec 7, 2005)

chakra25 said:
			
		

> Gokou is probably the fastest Z team... he's no doubt faster than Flash, if not, the same speed. He can move at warp speeds, he has super human strength, and he doesn't need kame hame ha to beat Flash. It's an overkill.
> 
> Look at how he dodged the Ginu Force attack (the blue guy and red guy with white hair) while appear to stand still. Those guys were attacking at hyper sonic speed and Gokou managed to dodge all of their attacks barely moving. This was before he went Super Saiyan... imagine what Super Saiyan 3 can do...
> 
> Don't forget that Gokou was trained under martial arts experts as opposed to Flash. Flash just know how to street brawl with super speed.



Gokuu by far isnt the fastest on the Z Senshi....Gotenks, Gohan, Vejiito are all faster BY FAR.

SSj Gotenks who is faster than Gokuu took 29 minutes to go around the world several times and take a short nap. The Speed of Light is 7 times around the world in a second....Gokuu is NOWHERE NEAR Flash's speed.

On top of that, Base Teen Gohan goes full speed to school every morning at Mach 3 speed.


----------



## chakra25 (Dec 7, 2005)

Basically he's strong than Superman?


----------



## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

Goku had power level 180,000 while fighting Ginyu on Namek.  To reach that he was training in 100x gravity.

100 * 9.8m/s = 980 m/s

Goku after 100x Gravity = 180,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku = 450,000,000

450,000,000/ 180,000 = 2,500

2,500 x 100 = 25,000

Super Saiyan 3 Goku can withstand 25,000x gravity.

25,000 x 9.8m/s = 245,000

245,000 constant newtons of force downwards.  His mass equals that of around 245,000 when in 25,000x gravity.

245,000 x 186,282 mps = 45,639,090newtons

That's how strong ssj3 goku is 

if he tackles you at lightspeed in 25,000x gravity it will carry 45,639,090 newtons.
speed of light = 186,282 miles per. second


*In SSJ3 Form he only is 2500 times faster than when he was on Namek.*


----------



## RealaMoreno (Dec 7, 2005)

Kamendex said:
			
		

> He cant just IT to space...IT requires you to lock onto a ki signature and by the time Cell concentrates on a ki signature Flash would've run around him a trillion times.



Uh, no, just gotta see the place in his head. Plus in the wide open spaces in space, it's kinda hard to judge how long it would take for Flash to find the person. Flash maybe can run around the world in however many seconds, but I'm assuming that's going in a straight line and knowing his destination. The time required for Flash to find his attacker maybe be enough time for the attacker to do something drastic like blow up the world.

Luckey, that 'can you stop meh' thing is pretty funny, though all those punches to the crotch is major overkill.


----------



## Kamendex (Dec 7, 2005)

SSj3 Gokuu is not 450,000,000....that is just a made up number. And he was 180,000 with Kaioken.

And training in gravity does not depend on power level, it depends on how use to it you are. This was shown when Kid Trunks could barely walk in 100x gravity...and he was MUCH MUCH stronger than Gokuu was during the Namek Saga.



> Uh, no, just gotta see the place in his head. Plus in the wide open spaces in space, it's kinda hard to judge how long it would take for Flash to find the person. Flash maybe can run around the world in however many seconds, but I'm assuming that's going in a straight line and knowing his destination. The time required for Flash to find his attacker maybe be enough time for the attacker to do something drastic like blow up the world.



Ya....too bad it was kind of STATED that you needed to find a ki signature to lock onto...so your whole post is invalid....


----------



## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

chakra25 said:
			
		

> Basically he's strong than Superman?


The Flash and Superman are pretty much on par, but The Flash has speedforce, so he would beat superman.  

remember f = ma

Flash has more power than superman.


----------



## Shiron (Dec 7, 2005)

chakra25 said:
			
		

> he's no doubt faster than Flash,


Provide evidence of Goku being able to move faster than several times the speed of light (which, via the time it took Gotenks to flying around the world _ times, is proven to be false), minus the IT. Until then, Flash is faster, and wins. 

Edit: If Goku somehow used IT to get awy from the Flash, he'd start vibrating(rendering Goku's puches and blasts useless), until he found him (which shouldn't be too long (.00001 of a second, maybe) if Goku only went behind him). It would take Goku at least .01 of a second to fire a (small) ki attack, while it would only take Wally, at the most (if he's being serious) .001 of a second to react and punch Goku.


----------



## RealaMoreno (Dec 7, 2005)

Kamendex said:
			
		

> SSj3 Gokuu is not 450,000,000....that is just a made up number. And he was 180,000 with Kaioken.
> 
> And training in gravity does not depend on power level, it depends on how use to it you are. This was shown when Kid Trunks could barely walk in 100x gravity...and he was MUCH MUCH stronger than Gokuu was during the Namek Saga.
> 
> ...



Not completely, it doesn't need to be some one's ki. it can just be energy. So he can find a star somewhere and teleport to it.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

The circumference of the Earth around the equator is [SIZE=-1]24,902 miles.
The speed of light is [/SIZE]186,282 miles per second.

Takes .13 seconds to go around Earth once in the speed of light
1.3 seconds to go around Earth ten times.


----------



## Kamendex (Dec 7, 2005)

RealaMoreno said:
			
		

> Not completely, it doesn't need to be some one's ki. it can just be energy. So he can find a star somewhere and teleport to it.



I never said some1's ki signature...I said a ki signature...the star has Ki...but what is he gonna do when he IT's to one....burn to death?

And how is he going to IT to a star....and shoot a ki blast from there to the earth...?


----------



## RealaMoreno (Dec 7, 2005)

Well if he can sense the star from earth, why cant' he sense the earth from the star? And when he ITs to it, he won't IT into it. When he ITs to a person, he doesn't end up inside the person. He can IT just next to it. Hell, maybe there's a nearby planet. Hell, why not IT to namek and fire a beam from there? Only thing Flash has to worry but is if he'll see the beam comming. He may stop somewhere in China, scrach his head to ponder where the hell he went and the beam slams into Bush's crotch (shrugs).


----------



## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

There have been instances where Flash has been shot and right when he feels the pressure of the bullet he vibreates it out of existence or he runs away.  KI BLASTS DO NO DAMAGE SINCE HE CAN VIBRATE THEM.  His body vibrates into infinite mass so that whatever he touches leaves existence.  Ki blast that touch him = gone.  He doesnt need to dodge, he can run into the blast and vibrate into infinite mass.


----------



## RealaMoreno (Dec 7, 2005)

The blast is directed at the earth or whatever planet he's on, not him.


----------



## Arilou (Dec 7, 2005)

> Well if he can sense the star from earth, why cant' he sense the earth from the star?



Because a star is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH larger (and in any case *denser*) than the Earth. It's like asking why you can't see the flowers at the feet of the Statue of Liberty but you can see the Statue when standing among the flowers.



> KI BLASTS DO NO DAMAGE SINCE HE CAN VIBRATE THEM



Actually doesen't Flash have some limits as to what he can vibrate through? (eg. only physical and energy attacks, he can't vibrate through a psionically created barrier for instance, and it can be argued that ki-based attacks an analogous to psi)

He should still have time to run around it about three times while drinking tee though, so he should never be in any real danger of getting hit anyway.


----------



## RealaMoreno (Dec 7, 2005)

Arilou said:
			
		

> Because a star is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH larger (and in any case *denser*) than the Earth. It's like asking why you can't see the flowers at the feet of the Statue of Liberty but you can see the Statue when standing among the flowers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is assuming he can't distinguish ki signatures from one another due to the nearby star. In any cause I don't want Goku to win, I hate that turd. He married Chi Chi, that makes him a turd. But I don't want Flash to win either lol.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 7, 2005)

If Flash is serious, he wins. Who needs infinite mass punch? He can just vibrate his hand through Goku's head once and bye-bye Goku's head.

As for Goku being anywhere near the Flash in speed, uhhh, no. Just no. Gotenks circled the world several times in like, what, 10-15 min (its been awhile since I saw it)? Flash could do that in seconds or less. Before Goku could even think about thinking about flying, Flash already vibrats through Goku's body and is sitting around reading a book waiting for Goku's body to explode.


----------



## RealaMoreno (Dec 7, 2005)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> If Flash is serious, he wins. Who needs infinite mass punch? He can just vibrate his hand through Goku's head once and bye-bye Goku's head.
> 
> As for Goku being anywhere near the Flash in speed, uhhh, no. Just no. Gotenks circled the world several times in like, what, 10-15 min (its been awhile since I saw it)? Flash could do that in seconds or less. Before Goku could even think about thinking about flying, Flash already vibrats through Goku's body and is sitting around reading a bood waiting for Goku's body to explode.



Yep, but I'm assuming these two are meeting for the first time and Flash isn't just going to be like "I'm going to kill you....NOW" He'll probably lolly gag knowing him...


----------



## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> If Flash is serious, he wins. Who needs infinite mass punch? He can just vibrate his hand through Goku's head once and bye-bye Goku's head.
> 
> As for Goku being anywhere near the Flash in speed, uhhh, no. Just no. Gotenks circled the world several times in like, what, 10-15 min (its been awhile since I saw it)? Flash could do that in seconds or less. Before Goku could even think about thinking about flying, Flash already vibrats through Goku's body and is sitting around reading a bood waiting for Goku's body to explode.


and gotenks is obviously one of (if not) THE strongest character(s) in dbz.  As stated before it takes 1.3 *seconds* for the speed of light to circle the earth 10 times.  Gotenks circled it a few times in 10 *minutes*.

Let's just say gotenks circled it ten times in 10 minutes
10 minutes = 600 seconds

Gotenks: 1 circulation = 1 minute = 60 seconds
Speed of Light: 1 circulation = 0.13 seconds

*Gotenks is then considered 60 times slower than the speed of light.*


----------



## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

RealaMoreno said:
			
		

> Yep, but I'm assuming these two are meeting for the first time and Flash isn't just going to be like "I'm going to kill you....NOW" He'll probably lolly gag knowing him...


If we are using the DC vs Marvel scenario where they are all presented the situation where the two fighters appear and must fight to save their universe, then I doubt he'd stop to lolly gag.  He didnt lollygag when he fought Quicksilver.


----------



## RealaMoreno (Dec 7, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> and gotenks is obviously one of (if not) THE strongest character(s) in dbz.  As stated before it takes 1.3 *seconds* for the speed of light to circle the earth 10 times.  Gotenks circled it a few times in 10 *minutes*.
> 
> Let's just say gotenks circled it ten times in 10 minutes
> 10 minutes = 600 seconds
> ...




He was arguing in your favor just so you know...


----------



## RealaMoreno (Dec 7, 2005)

The scenario wasn't stated, at least I didn't see it. So I made up me own ^^


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## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

RealaMoreno said:
			
		

> The scenario wasn't stated, at least I didn't see it. So I made up me own ^^


It's on the first page on the first post...


----------



## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

RealaMoreno said:
			
		

> He was arguing in your favor just so you know...


Did you see me arguing his point?  if you read both and had some reading comprehension you'd see I was merely *adding* to the rebuttal.


----------



## RealaMoreno (Dec 7, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> Did you see me arguing his point?  if you read both and had some reading comprehension you'd see I was merely *adding* to the rebuttal.



But then you posting all that was pointless. God, no need to get all defensive and attack me. :S

If you want to hear that Flash can't lose, then FLASH CAN'T LOSE.

Why make thread about two people fighting each other when you already know the result. Need something to up the ego, eh?


----------



## Luckey (Dec 7, 2005)

How was it pointless?  It adds to my side of the arguement...


----------



## unknowndanex (Dec 7, 2005)

look at it this way, IT will solve this little speed issue, IT which can take goku from earth to the kai's planet.  IT, that goku can also use in a fight, as when he fought cell.

flash is totally overrated here, and goku doesn't have to think hard to IT into the air.  flash can since bullets and vibrate through them, but goku is much faster than a damn bullet.  flash wouldn't last with goku, considering a lot of people get up from Flash's punches shows they aren't earth shattering or anything.

goku gets hit by earth shattering shots all the time, most of the time he smacks them away, a punch from flash would probably just make goku laugh.

flash doesn't stand a chance of beatin goku, and gotenks flying around the world is not a good example to show the speed factor, this is a fight not a race.  wasn't gotenks at normal form when he did that shit?


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 7, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> look at it this way, IT will solve this little speed issue, IT which can take goku from earth to the kai's planet.  IT, that goku can also use in a fight, as when he fought cell.
> 
> flash is totally overrated here, and goku doesn't have to think hard to IT into the air.  flash can since bullets and vibrate through them, but goku is much faster than a damn bullet.  flash wouldn't last with goku, considering a lot of people get up from Flash's punches shows they aren't earth shattering or anything.
> 
> ...



Instant Transmission allows Goku to travel at the speed of light. Flash > Speed of light. Also, Goku does have to think to use IT. Flash > thought. Again, Flash does not even have to punch Goku, he can vibrate through him and Goku will explode. Goku may be able to take a punch, but can he take his molecules being supercharged to the point where then explode shooting "Goku" pieces in every direction? lol Plus I would like to see what Goku can do when all his kinetic energy is stolen.

Also, people like to bring up that Flash wont take it seriously but do you really think Goku would? Neither would kill eachother under normal circumstances. You really have to view this fight as them both wanting to kill eachother for whatever reason.


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## pnoypridz (Dec 7, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> look at it this way, IT will solve this little speed issue, IT which can take goku from earth to the kai's planet.  IT, that goku can also use in a fight, as when he fought cell.
> 
> flash is totally overrated here, and goku doesn't have to think hard to IT into the air.  flash can since bullets and vibrate through them, but goku is much faster than a damn bullet.  flash wouldn't last with goku, considering a lot of people get up from Flash's punches shows they aren't earth shattering or anything.
> 
> ...



yea flash wayyyy to overrated in this board


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## Valdens (Dec 7, 2005)

hmmm. depends who can hold their brathe the longest
1=goku
2=flash
O=space
*confrontation*
 1       Vs       2                     O

1"instant transmission"2          O
2                                      O1
2"i go get him" ----------2-2-2-2-2  O 1
                     2"gasp"*holds breath*   O    1"gasp"*holdsq breathe
now, 1 of two out comes:
                                     2*lungs give out, dies*O   1*teh winner
OR
                            2*teh winner*   O         1*lungs give out, dies*

so, in conclusion, goku ITs to space, flash goes there, then whoever has the strongest lungs(holds breath longest) wins. 
                                                       -the awesomely delicious valdens


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## uncle jafuncle (Dec 7, 2005)

It doesn't matter how fast The Flash moves or vibrates or whatever...Goku survives planet decimating attacks.  Yeah, Goku can't catch Flash, but Flash really can't hurt Goku either...


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## vagnard (Dec 7, 2005)

Kamendex said:
			
		

> SSj3 Gokuu is not 450,000,000....that is just a made up number. And he was 180,000 with Kaioken.
> 
> And training in gravity does not depend on power level, it depends on how use to it you are. This was shown when Kid Trunks could barely walk in 100x gravity...and he was MUCH MUCH stronger than Gokuu was during the Namek Saga.
> 
> ...



But Flash has no means to kill Cell who can regenerate himself from a single cell...eventually he will can fly out of Flash's reach and then he only needs destroy the Earth. That's why against DC and Marvel Superheroes Cell and Boo are the best options even if Goku or Gohan are more powerful. Cell and Boo can regenerate practically from the dust, both of them can teleport (you only need a ki signature in places you don't know....but you can teleport in any place inside Earth's atmosphere using the ki signature of any human. Both of them can survive in the space. 

Hell...Deathstroke owned Flash....he lost all credibility. All of you are assuming that Flash will enter inmediately in light speed mode and he travel in the time and some crap like that...etc....Have you seen Flash's enemies?...Captain Boomerang....please.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 7, 2005)

uncle jafuncle said:
			
		

> It doesn't matter how fast The Flash moves or vibrates or whatever...Goku survives planet decimating attacks.  Yeah, Goku can't catch Flash, but Flash really can't hurt Goku either...



I again ask, can Goku survive having his molecules supercharged to the point they explode? Or how about starvation from being frozen without any kinetic energy? Or how about having the air sucked out of his lungs? There are plenty of ways Flash can hurt Goku even without infinite mass punch that WOULD hurt Goku, its just a matter of how much it hurts him lol.


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## Hiruma (Dec 7, 2005)

Flash, if serious and with killing intent from the start, is a cosmic I tell you!


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 7, 2005)

vagnard said:
			
		

> Hell...Deathstroke owned Flash....he lost all credibility. All of you are assuming that Flash will enter inmediately in light speed mode and he travel in the time and some crap like that...etc....Have you seen Flash's enemies?...Captain Boomerang....please.



and you assume that Goku will enter immediately into planet destroying mode or super powered Kamahama mode or some crap like that.


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## vagnard (Dec 7, 2005)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> I again ask, can Goku survive having his molecules supercharged to the point they explode? Or how about starvation from being frozen without any kinetic energy? Or how about having the air sucked out of his lungs? There are plenty of ways Flash can hurt Goku even without infinite mass punch that WOULD hurt Goku, its just a matter of how much it hurts him lol.



Please...show me a picture of Flash doing an infinite mass punch hurting class 100 like Superman, Hulk or Captain Marvel. All of you are acting like Flash will start with his potential at max....we have seen Flash being owned by guys like Deathstroke. How about his regulars enemies?...Captain Boomerang, Captain Cold, Grood, Abra Kadabra....have any of them light speed?....why then Wally has problems defeating any of them?



			
				Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> and you assume that Goku will enter immediately into planet destroying mode or super powered Kamahama mode or some crap like that.



uh?....Have you count the amount of Kame Hame and blasts capable to blow a mountain that are fired in DBZ per fight?...Goku FIGHTS in the sky, Goku shoots mega hyper blasts, Goku uses shunkanido.....can you tell me about Flash using in regular basis light speed, time travel, infinite mass punch, etc, etc ?


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## pnoypridz (Dec 7, 2005)

cause most people here who praise wally so much probably dont read his comics


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## TDM (Dec 7, 2005)

> ....why then Wally has problems defeating any of them?


I assume the main arguement is a lot like the whole "Should Deidara be damn near invincible because he can use all his bombs?" but it doesn't work that way, because they are never "serious" which really is the main ... point thing in this fight.


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## vagnard (Dec 7, 2005)

organizedcrime said:
			
		

> I assume the main arguement is a lot like the whole "Should Deidara be damn near invincible because he can use all his bombs?" but it doesn't work that way, because they are never "serious" which really is the main ... point thing in this fight.



uH?...Flash is a superhero...Isn't he serious against villians who threatening lives?. I'm sure Flash wanted to be pierced by Deathstroke's sword..... The problem with Flash is that many of his special abilities are only theory.... Goku being serious is the regular Goku we can see in any fight.


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## TDM (Dec 7, 2005)

> The problem with Flash is that many of his special abilities are only theory....


Yes, that's the phrase I was looking for.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 7, 2005)

vagnard said:
			
		

> Please...show me a picture of Flash doing an infinite mass punch hurting class 100 like Superman, Hulk or Captain Marvel.



Korican put it quite nicely in the Mavel vs DC crossover match thread awhile ago so I will steal his pics lol.



			
				korican04 said:
			
		

> Link removed
> 
> Link removed



Also, as Korican noted "Zoom hit wonderwoman going increased in mass, and wonderwoman said it felt like superman smacked her."



			
				pnoypridz said:
			
		

> cause most people here who praise wally so much probably dont read his comics



ummmm, I do. I have all the comics of Flash v2. Flash is like Superman, depending on the comic his skills vary. Same with the Hulk and Captain Marvel, and Green Lantern, and well you get the idea. To combat this I always take both people in a fight and consider them both going all out.


----------



## vagnard (Dec 7, 2005)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Korican put it quite nicely in the Mavel vs DC crossover match thread awhile ago so I will steal his pics lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I will shut my mouth...I never imagined a Flash like that.


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## Viciousness (Dec 7, 2005)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Instant Transmission allows Goku to travel at the speed of light. Flash > Speed of light. Also, Goku does have to think to use IT. Flash > thought. Again, Flash does not even have to punch Goku, he can vibrate through him and Goku will explode. Goku may be able to take a punch, but can he take his molecules being supercharged to the point where then explode shooting "Goku" pieces in every direction? lol Plus I would like to see what Goku can do when all his kinetic energy is stolen.
> 
> Also, people like to bring up that Flash wont take it seriously but do you really think Goku would? Neither would kill eachother under normal circumstances. You really have to view this fight as them both wanting to kill eachother for whatever reason.



Where are you getting this IT = Light speed argument from? Its a mistranslated dub line, the technique is obviously "Instant" The same way Kaioshin's technique teleports him anywhere instantly. You guys are making up theoretical powers for Flash that have never been shown in the first place. 

I'm not aware of flash vibrating through any of his foes to make them explode. Besides Goku normally fights in the air and creates a ki field on powerup. Even Nappa blew up a city around him after lifting two fingers. If wonder woman says Flashes punch hit her like superman then thats not but so destructive as it was obvious from the fight between Superman and Wonder Woman that Superman was holding back drastically in both speed and power. And if Goku puts up a ki barrier is Flash really just going to run through it? Didnt the first poster say energy fields and the like have messed up his molecular abilities to begin with?

While I guess flash could outrun a nuclear bomb powered blast, it's not like you have to aim a ki attack directly at him to kill him, just destroy the country or continent  he's standing in. After destroying enough of the earth youll have to hit him no matter how much he runs. Goku's destructive power has just been shown to be far greater and in the end he'd win.


----------



## Hiruma (Dec 7, 2005)

The point is Flash can move faster than Goku can think. So Flash can always do the infinite mass punch before Goku even does anything.


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## icy_tony (Dec 7, 2005)

*goku would win hands down*

: but that is still like a stalemate, because even though flash has infinite mass, he is never really serious, but goku likes to fight and will never give up, but will go all out. and if u work in something like ss 4, or fused ss4 gogeta, i pick the dbz character, mostly because of the fact that they can point there finger and planets blow up, and they can move and blow stuff things with their minds. yes, flash can think at the speed of light, but those are just simple things, not complex things like, how do i get off this planet and get out of range from a supernova if goku blows up the sun.


----------



## Hiruma (Dec 7, 2005)

He can punch Goku before Goku even fires anything .


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## Viciousness (Dec 7, 2005)

magicalmaster2001 said:
			
		

> The point is Flash can move faster than Goku can think. So Flash can always do the infinite mass punch before Goku even does anything.



But my point is Goku is probably going to be in the air to begin with, since you hardly ever see the guy on the ground transformed. If hes not transformed then hes not at full power, so you cant just start the match with Flash Speed Blitzing him like that unless Goku's at full power to start off with, and if he is theres going to be a pretty strong ki field around him whether he creates a barrier or not. And attacks come moving lightspeed at Goku all the time to begin with. He might not fly around the world at lightspeed, but his fighting movements and dodges are definately around that as well as his reaction time. You cant tell me his brain moves at the speed of the average person when hes fighting like that.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Dec 7, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> While I guess flash could outrun a nuclear bomb powered blast, it's not like you have to aim a ki attack directly at him to kill him, just destroy the country or continent  he's standing in. After destroying enough of the earth youll have to hit him no matter how much he runs. Goku's destructive power has just been shown to be far greater and in the end he'd win.


But... that's the problem.  Since the Flash can outrun the explosion, if you aim at say New York, the Flash won't be at the point of impact by the time the attack gets there.

He won't be in the city.

He won't be in the state.

Hell, he doesn't even have to be on the planet any more.

IT is faster for sufficiently long trips, but in terms of tactical combat speed, it's near-useless (utterly useless against the flash other than for running away).

Goku's normal Ki blasts aren't fast enough to ever hit the Flash.

Goku's kamehameha isn't fast enough to directly hit the Flash, and short of destroying the whole planet won't hit an area of affect that will be noticed by the Flash.  And even if Goku destroys the planet, the Flash can retreat to another planet.  Goku dies in the vacuum of space.

Even if we assume the Spirit Bomb will work on the Flash, there's no chance that the Flash will stand there and let Goku charge it up.  And even if he does, Goku can't hit the Flash with it, nor can he catch the Flash in the area of effect.

Goku cannot hurt the Flash, even if the flash isn't "serious."  (Unless by not serious we assume he's going to LET Goku hit him, which is rather OOC for the Flash).

So the only question is can the Flash hurt Goku, or is this a stalemate?

Goku's been killed.  A number of times.  By forces less than infinity.  An infinite mass punch has infinite energy to damage with.  Goku can be hurt thus he will be hurt by an infinite mass punch.

That's the fight.  Goku's only plan that could work would be to IT far enough away that he could sense the Flash coming, then IT far enough away to repeat the process.  But this is WAY OOC for Goku, so it wouldn't happen that way.


----------



## uncle jafuncle (Dec 7, 2005)

tyler durden said:
			
		

> The DBZ guys are just overpowered compared to any anime/manga there is. If you want to make a thread with one of them in it think to yourself, "can their opponent survive having the planet blown up?" If the answer is no, then they would lose the fight.



That says it all, but I'll say more because I'm bored.

Flash can't survive the earth exploding, so he loses.  If we are assuming Flash is at maximum potential then we must be assuming the same for Goku...which means he is basically flying at the start since his aura of ki has made a mile deep crater below him.  Flash loses hands down.  You can't vibrate through someone who survives planet destroying attacks.  You can't suffocate someone who doesn't need oxygen to live.  You can't suck out someone's kinetic energy who is radiating enough energy around them to level Europe. 

Even if Flash managed to harm Goku he'd only get stronger since that's what SJ's do.



			
				EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> Goku's kamehameha isn't fast enough to directly hit the Flash, and short of destroying the whole planet won't hit an area of affect that will be noticed by the Flash.  And even if Goku destroys the planet, the Flash can retreat to another planet.  Goku dies in the vacuum of space.



How does Flash get to another planet?  How does Goku die in the vacuum of space?  SJ's can survive in space seeing as Vegeta + every SJ that was on Planet Vegeta were seen floating around space without any equipment.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 7, 2005)

Lol if you want both characters to be full power at the very start of the fight then you would have to have Flash already in motion going all out fusing with the speed force straddling the time barrier. If you do this then Flash can kill Goku in -5 seconds lol

No one every said anything about them starting fully powerd up but if you want that then you should have both characters at their best. Flash at his most powerful state can tranverse dimensions, time, and space lol


----------



## Shiron (Dec 7, 2005)

uncle jafuncle said:
			
		

> SJ's can survive in space seeing as Vegeta + every SJ that was on Planet Vegeta were seen floating around space without any equipment.


Bardock Movie = Filler - Doesn't count


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## uncle jafuncle (Dec 7, 2005)

Meijin no Kori said:
			
		

> Bardock Movie = Filler - Doesn't count



And Vegeta on the asteroid?  Besides, that scene I'm talking about was a flashback in the anime...never read manga so maybe it is filler but whatever.

You've all convinced me that Flash could survive the Earth blowing up.  I never really read a whole lot of Flash material so I didn't realize he could traverse dimensions/time/space.


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## korican04 (Dec 7, 2005)

This would be better with zoom vs goku. Because 1, flash isn't cruel. So although vibrating his hand through goku's face would blow him up, he probably won't do it. Although an infinite mass punch to goku would put a hole in him that equals death. 
Zoom though would just kill goku. Goku would just wait till his opponent makes the first move to see how powerful he is, but when zoom reacts it's over.

If flash hesitates his pretty much screwed though. If he does something smart like actually use his powers he should be able to take down goku.


----------



## Viciousness (Dec 7, 2005)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Lol if you want both characters to be full power at the very start of the fight then you would have to have Flash already in motion going all out fusing with the speed force straddling the time barrier. If you do this then Flash can kill Goku in -5 seconds lol
> 
> No one every said anything about them starting fully powerd up but if you want that then you should have both characters at their best. Flash at his most powerful state can tranverse dimensions, time, and space lol



If this guys travelling through time then hes not fighting Goku. I thought the going back in time thing was an accident that happened to begin with.
I was saying if the guy says Flash starts the fight blitzing Goku at top speed then you cant just have Goku standing there to begin with. Either they both square off and Goku gets time to power up, or they both start off battle ready.
As for the space thing Gokus had plenty of enemies that could survive in space when he couldnt. And being surrounded by ki I doubt he'd die of cold immediately, so as long as he can hold his breath long enough to lock onto a ki source elsewhere and shunkan idou to another planet he should be okay if he decides to destroy earth.


----------



## Shiron (Dec 7, 2005)

uncle jafuncle said:
			
		

> And Vegeta on the asteroid?


Vegeta being on the asteroid (trying to obtain SSJ), I'm pretty sure is from the Gallic Jr. Arc, which yet again is anime filler. Saiyans just can't breath in space.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 7, 2005)

uncle jafuncle said:
			
		

> You've all convinced me that Flash could survive the Earth blowing up.  I never really read a whole lot of Flash material so I didn't realize he could traverse dimensions/time/space.









			
				korican04 said:
			
		

> This would be better with zoom vs goku. Because 1, flash isn't cruel. So although vibrating his hand through goku's face would blow him up, he probably won't do it. Although an infinite mass punch to goku would put a hole in him that equals death.
> Zoom though would just kill goku. Goku would just wait till his opponent makes the first move to see how powerful he is, but when zoom reacts it's over.
> 
> If flash hesitates his pretty much screwed though. If he does something smart like actually use his powers he should be able to take down goku.



While that is definatly true, when was the last time you saw Goku blowing up Earth or entire continents? lol Under realistic circumstances the fight would go like this.

Goku: Why are we fighting? Im hungry, want to go get something to eat?
Flash: Sure, I could sure go for about a 100 burgers right now.
Goku: Only a hundred? You must not be that hungry.
Flash: Oh ya, that sounds like a challange. Eating contest, lets go!
*Flash and Goku then go on to eat the entire worlds supply of food and both die off from hunger*

lol ok, exageration but you get my point. Neither would kill the other under normal circumstances.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 7, 2005)

ok, u guys are saying flash is faster than goku's thought, it doesn't require much thought to IT into the air so Goku will be in the air, like it or not.  IT is greater than flash considering it is instant, flash doesn't move in an instant, oh yeah and about the inconsistencies in Flash, i see a comic from probably korican the other day of flash getting to kenya in 7 seconds yet he runs around the world in .13, thats a nice thing to know.  

yall keep saying goku has to be far away to beat flash, well how far back is flash gonna be before he tries to speed blitz goku, up close flash is not that great of a fighter, which is why he's always running and most of the time sneaking people.  goku is a much better inside fighter, all goku has to do is land one punch and flash will be through.  and don't say nothing about vibrating, cause goku's attacks are much to fast for that shit.  this is the first time i've ever seen flash of all people be overrated this high, i understand superman and green lantern, but flash come on now.  the guy is good but not that damn great.  he sometimes struggled with captain boomerang of all people.

goku has faced the likes of cell and buu, people that would undoubtedly rape the flash and just about anyone else in DC.  flash has not had a one on one fight with a notable villain once u really think about it.


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## uncle jafuncle (Dec 7, 2005)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

>



Thanks.



			
				MnK said:
			
		

> Vegeta being on the asteroid (trying to obtain SSJ), I'm pretty sure is from the Gallic Jr. Arc, which yet again is anime filler. Saiyans just can't breath in space.



It may be filler, but I remember it being in the beginning of the whole android/cell situation.  I know it couldn't be Garlic Jr. since I never watched that...unless he trained on an asteroid twice.:S


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## unknowndanex (Dec 7, 2005)

well one that happened in Garlic Jr. filler was when vegeta was just lookin for goku and that was basically it.

but in the android saga vegeta explained how he transformed into SSJ and it was on another planet.


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## korican04 (Dec 7, 2005)

The problem with the flash, is that writers only make him as good as the person he is fighting. Against white martians he's got to pull out his powers, against zoom he runs in between time or some other nonsense so that he can battle him, and runs around the world a dozen times in less then a second. But when he goes against the likes of captain boomerang or captain cold, he forgets he even has powers lol.

somehow flash would win with some sort of nonsensical explanation about molecules, blah blah, speed, blah blah vibration, gravity, infinity some other time space continuum stuff, win.


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## Hiruma (Dec 7, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> ok, u guys are saying flash is faster than goku's thought, it doesn't require much thought to IT into the air so Goku will be in the air, like it or not.  IT is greater than flash considering it is instant, flash doesn't move in an instant, oh yeah and about the inconsistencies in Flash, i see a comic from probably korican the other day of flash getting to kenya in 7 seconds yet he runs around the world in .13, thats a nice thing to know.
> 
> The point is he STILL has to think it. During which Flash infinite mass punches.
> 
> ...



Flash is a fucking cosmic.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 7, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> The problem with the flash, is that writers only make him as good as the person he is fighting. Against white martians he's got to pull out his powers, against zoom he runs in between time or some other nonsense so that he can battle him, and runs around the world a dozen times in less then a second. But when he goes against the likes of captain boomerang or captain cold, he forgets he even has powers lol.
> 
> somehow flash would win with some sort of nonsensical explanation about molecules, blah blah, speed, blah blah vibration, gravity, infinity some other time space continuum stuff, win.



Unfortunatly, that is true of most comic book Hero's, Marvel and DC. The sticky on the Battledome about it is a good read SkOTW 32: New Life

Usually you consider people at there best though or atleast best for that incarnation as with Superman, Hulk, Green Lantern, etc...


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## pnoypridz (Dec 8, 2005)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Unfortunatly, that is true of most comic book Hero's, Marvel and DC. The sticky on the Battledome about it is a good read SkOTW 32: New Life
> 
> Usually you consider people at there best though or atleast best for that incarnation as with Superman, Hulk, Green Lantern, etc...



i think u should count the lows and the highs and find a good middle ground where things makes sense


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## uncle jafuncle (Dec 8, 2005)

pnoypridz said:
			
		

> i think u should count the lows and the highs and find a good middle ground where things makes sense



Fanboys would never allow that.


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## Viciousness (Dec 8, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and about the inconsistencies in Flash, i see a comic from probably korican the other day of flash getting to kenya in 7 seconds yet he runs around the world in .13, thats a nice thing to know.



Geez that was my main problem with  DC in debates to begin with. DC is completely inconsistent as Ive said before, and especially so when it comes to characters like flash. But fans choose to use abilities that have only appeared once or twice, and are by far the outliers as far as their power is concerned. If you have a guy who ussually has problems beating a guy that throws boomerangs, hows he going to have the reaction time to avoid planet destroying or continent destroying blasts moving at the speed of light?

You guys are saying he's just going to punch a hole through Goku's face because he has infinite mass. Thats just a phrase that came out of his mouth, there has to be some limit to the power he can dish out or else hed be better than superman considering he can alread move faster, because if his speed and power are instantly infinite then thats better than someone who actually has a limit. Has he never been beaten or something? If he cant punch a hole through Bizzarro's face then his weight obviously has some tangible limit or he's not going to pass that limit to say the least. And if thats so you cant say  that limit is high enough to break through Goku's face but not a superman caliber villains for some reason.

If Goku takes out the planet or a large chunk of it we know he can stop flash. but can flash really destroy Goku?


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## korican04 (Dec 8, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Geez that was my main problem with  DC in debates to begin with. DC is completely inconsistent as Ive said before, and especially so when it comes to characters like flash. But fans choose to use abilities that have only appeared once or twice, and are by far the outliers as far as their power is concerned. If you have a guy who ussually has problems beating a guy that throws boomerangs, hows he going to have the reaction time to avoid planet destroying or continent destroying blasts moving at the speed of light?
> 
> You guys are saying he's just going to punch a hole through Goku's face because he has infinite mass. Thats just a phrase that came out of his mouth, there has to be some limit to the power he can dish out or else hed be better than superman considering he can alread move faster, because if his speed and power are instantly infinite then thats better than someone who actually has a limit. Has he never been beaten or something? If he cant punch a hole through Bizzarro's face then his weight obviously has some tangible limit or he's not going to pass that limit to say the least. And if thats so you cant say  that limit is high enough to break through Goku's face but not a superman caliber villains for some reason.
> 
> If Goku takes out the planet or a large chunk of it we know he can stop flash. but can flash really destroy Goku?



Alright so to be "realistic" with goku too, when has he ever blown up earth or a large junk of it? And since when is a kamehameha blast the speed of light? Half the time they smack it with their fists and it takes a good while before it explodes, they just stand there with a pose and wait for it to hit a mountain and say omg you smacked my beam. lol


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## Viciousness (Dec 8, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> Alright so to be "realistic" with goku too, when has he ever blown up earth or a large junk of it? And since when is a kamehameha blash the speed of light? Half the time the smack it with their fists and it takes a good while before it explodes, they just stand there with a pose and wait for it to explode. lol



he killed off a 10th of the earths population when he acciidentally missed a kamehameha directed at buu. And by the time they fought super buu so much of earth had been killed by the genocide attack that they werent taking tolls, but Kid Buu destroyed the earth in an instant. Also Roshis blast towards the start of the series traveled to the moon and blew it up in a panel and definately seemed near light speed. The blasts are capable of moving faster as the series progresses.


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## korican04 (Dec 8, 2005)

Ok inconsitencies in dbz happend all the time too. 1, piccolo can blasts the moon which is 1/6th the mass of the earth in like a second. But when he was fighting napa, he shot at him after krillin knocked him a couple, but it missed, traveling the speed of light?? and it made a small dent in a hill. uh huh real consistent.
I know buu blew up the earth to win,but i'm asking if goku would do that?


----------



## uncle jafuncle (Dec 8, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> Alright so to be "realistic" with goku too, when has he ever blown up earth or a large junk of it? And since when is a kamehameha blast the speed of light? Half the time they smack it with their fists and it takes a good while before it explodes, they just stand there with a pose and wait for it to hit a mountain and say omg you smacked my beam. lol



Frieza blew up a planet.  Goku was stronger than Frieza.  There you go.  DBZ characters destroy large chunks of land simply by unsupressing their power all the time.


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## The Wanderer (Dec 8, 2005)

Hmmm . . . just because he didn't blow up the Earth doesn't mean he can do it. Cell (during his fight against Goku) said that Goku could destroy the planet with a non-fully powered Kame Hame Ha, so go figure 

Now about the fight itself . . . give me some time por favor


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## korican04 (Dec 8, 2005)

uncle jafuncle said:
			
		

> Frieza blew up a planet.  Goku was stronger than Frieza.  There you go.  DBZ characters destroy large chunks of land simply by unsupressing their power all the time.


dbz villains blow them up, goku isn't a villain, that's the point. He doesn't use those tactics, especially if it's the earth. I know that they can blow them up, especially the ones that can survive space, like frieza, cell and buu, but would goku?
If this was the flash vs cell, then go head and use that tactic, but goku won't do that, just like the flash wouldn't vibrate through goku's face to blow him up eventhough he can.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 8, 2005)

pnoypridz said:
			
		

> i think u should count the lows and the highs and find a good middle ground where things makes sense



True, but as uncle jafuncle pointed out it will never happen lol People will always argue where exactly that middle is. For examples see almost any thread made involving the Hulk, Wolverine, Magneto, Spiderman, Green Lantern, Superman, and the list goes on and on lol


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## Viciousness (Dec 8, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> Ok inconsitencies in dbz happend all the time too. 1, piccolo can blasts the moon which is 1/6th the mass of the earth in like a second. But when he was fighting napa, he shot at him after krillin knocked him a couple, but it missed, traveling the speed of light?? and it made a small dent in a hill. uh huh real consistent.
> I know buu blew up the earth to win,but i'm asking if goku would do that?



Not all ki blasts travel at the same speed, it was obvious from the death ball. But characters dodging reactions in close range combat are definately faster  than their ability to move around the world persay in the DB universe. Of course DB is more consistent. The manga is virtually plothole free and has a single writer, unlike the DC universe , and I suggested creating a "regular" superman before since he's inconsistent, but the fans werent having it.

The inconsistencies in DB even if there are plausible ones arent like someone struggling with a boomerang user then vibrating through people to make them explode.

As for Goku not using the tactic, he's never been in a desperate situation where it would be to his advantage before, but he said when buu did it that it wasnt a huge deal since the earth could be wished back, just like the people he killed with his stray blast could. Cell and Buu would be helped if he blew up the planet, so it wouldnt make any sense. But if Flash is as big a threat as you guys are making him out to be, and Goku had no choice you cant say hed be unwilling to destroy a portion of the earth. Hes done the necessary before like bringing Cell to North Kaiou's planet when he knew it'd kill him.


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## korican04 (Dec 8, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Not all ki blasts travel at the same speed, it was obvious from the death ball. But characters dodging reactions in close range combat are definately faster  than their ability to move around the world persay in the DB universe. Of course DB is more consistent. The manga is virtually plothole free and has a single writer, unlike the DC universe , and I suggested creating a "regular" superman before since he's inconsistent, but the fans werent having it.
> 
> The inconsistencies in DB even if there are plausible ones arent like someone struggling with a boomerang user then vibrating through people to make them explode.


Yeah i agree with almost everything that has been said, but people like bringing arguments from all of dbz. And that's where everything goes nutty. DB has few inconsistencies and overall ok.

 But you if can blow up the moon when you were weaker, why not use that attack against napa? c'mon, piccolo was impressed with the hole nappa made in the ground, did he forget that he and master roshi have blown up the moon? (most likely this blowing up the moon was filler on piccolo's part, but he's suppose to be more powerful then master roshi at that point).


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## uncle jafuncle (Dec 8, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> dbz villains blow them up, goku isn't a villain, that's the point. He doesn't use those tactics, especially if it's the earth. I know that they can blow them up, especially the ones that can survive space, like frieza, cell and buu, but would goku?
> If this was the flash vs cell, then go head and use that tactic, but goku won't do that, just like the flash wouldn't vibrate through goku's face to blow him up eventhough he can.



If we are assuming that these characters are using the same battle tactics/moral judgement they normally do then they wouldn't be fighting one another in the first place...


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## unknowndanex (Dec 8, 2005)

well i don't know about everyone else, but i'm not using goku's earth shattering moves as a reason he beats the flash.  i was pointing to it because i saw someone saying that flash could take out goku with his "infinite" mass punch, and i see goku defend against planet destroying or moon destroying attacks all the time.

its just in my honest opinion that goku would probably laugh or look somewhere else when flash hits him, i don't think it will do much damage to him.  we're talkin bout stuff goku has done in his normal form, imagine SSJ3 fighting Flash.  The speed factor isn't something we can really use because only DC sits around and thinks of a random number of how fast flash got from point A to point B.  

SIDE NOTE* Gotenks traveling the world was not done at SSJ and he wasn't traveling at max speed, he was actually toying around.  Plus gotenks also fought in SSJ in the time chamber so his whole skill level increased while fighting Buu so we really don't know gotenk's true speed to keep using that as comparison.

and based on Toriyama, 10 year skip after buu, Goku was the best. (just in case i see anymore based on gotenks responses)


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## korican04 (Dec 8, 2005)

uncle jafuncle said:
			
		

> If we are assuming that these characters are using the same battle tactics/moral judgement they normally do then they wouldn't be fighting one another in the first place...


Ok so whoever acts first would win in this case. With no morals, goku could just let all his ki out and blow everything up, or the flash would steal all his speed first and vibrate his hand through goku's face and win. But that's not how they fight, that's the point.

The thing with dc, is that the heros there do more than just fight. They do other things that show feats. DBZ is just fighting, we know how well they can fight, but we don't really know how fast they are or how strong they are numerically, we just know how strong and fast they are relative to each other.


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## uncle jafuncle (Dec 8, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> Ok so whoever acts first would win in this case. With no morals, goku could just let all his ki out and blow everything up, or the flash would steal all his speed first and vibrate his hand through goku's face and win. But that's not how they fight, that's the point.



And my point is that if they fight the way they normally do they wouldn't fight.


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## Viciousness (Dec 8, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> Yeah i agree with almost everything that has been said, but people like bringing arguments from all of dbz. And that's where everything goes nutty. DB has few inconsistencies and overall ok.
> 
> But you if can blow up thet moon when you were weaker, why not use that attack against napa? c'mon, piccolo was impressed with the hole nappa made in the ground, did he not forget that he and master roshi have blown up the moon? (most likely this blowing up the moon was filler on piccolo's part, but he's suppose to be more powerful then master roshi at that point).



I'd need to see the frame. Was he actually surprised by the size of the crater, or by feeling the amount of ki Nappa put into the attack and the crater  was just a result of the ki exploding in a condensed form on the surface (to note blasts in dbz can be condensed like Vegeta explains with his final flash).


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## korican04 (Dec 8, 2005)

uncle jafuncle said:
			
		

> And my point is that if they fight the way they normally do they wouldn't fight.


I understand your point completely, i just thought it was moot since this is the battledome and assumed they were going to fight anyways. But we have to see how the fight comes out based on how they will go about the fight. not just omg flash is faster than light and goku can blow planets up.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 8, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> I understand your point completely, i just thought it was moot since this is the battledome and assumed they were going to fight anyways.



Exactly. In every battledome fight I always consider a sinario similar to "Two (or more) contestants are thrown into a random place (unless the setting is otherwise stated) and they both really want to kill the other for whatever reason" If you dont do this, half the fights in the Battledome would never happen. You have two good guys fighting eachother or you have two mortal enemies fighting on the same team. You really have to ignore that stuff for the fight to work.


----------



## Green Lantern (Dec 8, 2005)

Hands up any of the DBZ fanboys who have actually read the Flash series?

If you haven't, then how exactly can you judge who would win?


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## Bullet (Dec 8, 2005)

Flash wins.

The speed difference means Flash can do pretty much anything he wants before Goku can even form or summon a single thought. If one technique doesn't work, Flash can move on to the next or stack attacks.

- Vibrational punch/pass-through/explosion - In Flash #209 he's gone through Superman's grip, so Goku's strength/density isn't a factor. Amazo (a being with the combined abilities of the JLA) has had his brain taken out with this technique... I wonder how Goku does without his internal organs?

- Infinite Mass Punch - Even a weaker version has been used to KO Mongul nevermind the full fledged hit. In his fight with Zoom he claims and shows that he can throw thousands of them in the blink of an eye, the Speed Force moderating his density and durability as appropriate. 

Flash speed blitzing a huge monster, fighting it in super-speed. Note that the speedsters become class 100 using the speed force.



Flash destroying the Tower of Lightning by running fast





Flash easily destroying a giant robot






- Time Travel - Back to before Goku even knows he's in a fight, then research him thoroughly. Travel to a point in time where Goku is weak, at the brink, etc. and tip the scales in favor of his destruction.

- Speed Force Dump - Drag Goku along for a ride and dump him in into the Speed Force dimension... alternatively, at the end of time.

- Speed Steal - As a de-aged teen he effortlessly and instantly stole a massive 500ft tall tidal wave of all it's energy, he's stopped bullets, trucks, buildings, people, strongmen, and Superman and even the whole planet... so capacity isn't really the issue. Flash could take all of Goku's speed and just do anything he wants with him.

Flash absorbing the speed of an entire population of a planet



Here's another Flash stealing some speed feat




After Goku has time to react, energy Blasts is about his only solution. A ground attack would no more trip up a speed-force speedster than wavy floor would you- their perceptions and interactions with the environment are on a higher plane of motion.

Taking to the air is purely defensive. Attacking from there, nothing he has- save the blasts or decimation of the planet- can catch Flash. Even if he decides to go planet-busting, as the ground is breaking up, Flash can speed up and move into the Speed Force (they do it even in-doors without enough running room) and from there travel back in time for his own defensive/offensive manuever.

Flash travelling through time and running through walls







Flash also knows a trick that helps him run in the air.


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## Hiruma (Dec 8, 2005)

RULES:
The two people are given the knowledge of the Living Tribunal and The Spectre and the Spectre rules DB universe and Tribunal rules DC. Flash and Goku appear on battlefield and they must fight to death to save their universe. Basically a no-holds-bar fight to the death.

In this case, what happens is Goku fires a blast on the battlefield(really needs to be specified), Flash dodges it and infinite mass punches/vibrates his hand thorugh Goku's face. Depends on the battlefield to see what's going to happen.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 8, 2005)

here we go again with the one sided images, do u have a flash vs capt boomerang image, prolly not cause that would downplay him a lot.  how bout an image of flash fighting Deathstroke<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Goku.  DC and DB are two totally different concepts more than DC and Marvel.  speed force is a concept only DC has and considering that the speed force is attained by people not born with the ability to run that damn fast, Goku would have attained that by DC theory.  no one has even really used the speed force as a factor in this thread, we're really going off of the fact Flash can run at the speed of light and higher and do things that running at or higher than the speed of light enables u to do.

with that being said goku could just charge his ki enough to cause a big explosive wave of ki, and u can't say flash can vibrate through it because he hasn't encountered anyone like goku.  there's a lot of things goku can and a lot of things flash can do and like i said, i don't care about that huge monster because most likely goku is stronger than that.

and about flash stealing speed, he steals speed based on kinetic energy where basically all of goku's abilities are ki enhanced which is a totally different concept.  goku could easily keep his ki down and flash stealing shit wouldn't really make a difference.

goku also fights by sensing large amounts of energy, flash moving at that speed would produce a lot of kinetic energy, goku wouldn't really have to think, he could just IT off instincts.


----------



## acritarch (Dec 8, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and based on Toriyama, 10 year skip after buu, Goku was the best. (just in case i see anymore based on gotenks responses)



Wrong. Mystic Gohan would still be above Goku. And Toriyama said nothing of the sort. In fact, if anything he would support that the human-saiyan half breeds are stronger than full blooded saiyans.

----------------------

Back on topic, Flash FTW.


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## korican04 (Dec 8, 2005)

But as soon as goku moves he's changing that ki energy to kinetic energy, he'll have plenty to steal. and once he IT's to flash what's he going to do, as soon as he IT's there flash is already moving and he'll have to IT again. 
I can see goku figuring out that as soon as he IT's there he'll have to release some ki blasts immediately so the flash can't have any where to run. If flash fights normally like he does half the time goku would win.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 8, 2005)

well i was saying IT into the air in which he would have the advantage. 

braindx, drunkenyoshimaster actually found an exerpt from toriyama saying that goku was slightly weaker than gotenks before the 10 year skip after buu, it was in the Goku vs Superman thread, considering goku does nothing but train i think in 10 years he got stronger than gohan who doesn't train at all.  he'll most likely vouch for me whenever he reads this


----------



## acritarch (Dec 8, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> braindx, drunkenyoshimaster actually found an exerpt from toriyama saying that goku was slightly weaker than gotenks before the 10 year skip after buu, it was in the Goku vs Superman thread, considering goku does nothing but train i think in 10 years he got stronger than gohan who doesn't train at all. he'll most likely vouch for me whenever he reads this



I read that and it didn't really say anything we didn't know already. And if you actually read the stuff posted by Kamendex and myself, you would know why *CHOU* Gohan will always be stronger than Goku. ALWAYS.


----------



## Hiruma (Dec 8, 2005)

I just don't see Goku winning if Flash actually vibrates his hand through Goku's face.


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## Bullet (Dec 8, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> But as soon as goku moves he's changing that ki energy to kinetic energy, he'll have plenty to steal. and once he IT's to flash what's he going to do, as soon as he IT's there flash is already moving and he'll have to IT again.
> I can see goku figuring out that as soon as he IT's there he'll have to release some ki blasts immediately so the flash can't have any where to run. If flash fights normally like he does half the time goku would win.



KI waves (which isn't light speed) and everything becomes slow around Flash, so I don't think that'll work once he use the speed force. 

Here's Flash running in a dark city so fast with a flash light he actually had to watch so he didnt run too fast otherwise he would have gotten ahead of the light.

What Gintama Character are you?

I also think IT whouldn't work, Flash fights a guy who moves through time (zoom), plus Goku still isn't fast enough to react to Flash, once he reappears Flash whould already have stolen his speed, moved away, or start biltzing Goku instead.


----------



## CABLE (Dec 8, 2005)

Goku is fasterthan flash


----------



## Bullet (Dec 8, 2005)

Cable said:
			
		

> Goku is fasterthan flash



What?:S  Prove it? Because Goku isn't even close to light speed.


----------



## uncle jafuncle (Dec 8, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> What?:S  Prove it? Because Goku isn't even close to light speed.



I doubt he's serious.  Goku's only faster with prep-time.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 8, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Flash wins.
> 
> The speed difference means Flash can do pretty much anything he wants before Goku can even form or summon a single thought. If one technique doesn't work, Flash can move on to the next or stack attacks.
> 
> ...



*Reps* Nice job, I didnt really feel like uploading a ton of pics so thanks  

Although I would like to add one thing.

Here is Flash single handedly destroying the body of the Anti-Moniter. Something Supergirl gave her life to barely be able to do (not nearly as well as Flash did too lol) and 2 Supermen and an army of super heros couldnt do.



FYI, the Anti-moniter is one of the most powerful villans in DC history. It took the combined efforts of almost every super hero and super villan in DC to defeat him and they barely succeded.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Dec 8, 2005)

well, that was Barry Allen Flash right(which he gave up his life for also) if not, then when did that happen in the time line b/c i thought Anti-Monitor was only associated with Crisis.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 8, 2005)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> well, that was Barry Allen Flash right(which he gave up his life for also) if not, then when did that happen in the time line b/c i thought Anti-Monitor was only associated with Crisis.



No, it was Wally West. 


*Spoiler*: _Small Flash comic spoiler_ 



There was a story arc in the Flash comic where a guy named Cobalt Blue tries to alter history and as a result Barry Allen is killed before the Crisis and without Barry the Anti-Moniter wins and takes over the universe. Flash(wally) then travels back to origional crisis to fix things and return them back to the way they were by helping destroy the moniter without anyone knowing he was there (to not mess with the timestream or something). It was in Flash v2 #143-150.




It was a interesting story to say the least. A good read even if it did mess with a classic (Crisis).


----------



## Deleted member 15401 (Dec 8, 2005)

BattousaiMS said:
			
		

> Flash Wins if he can time travel in this battle. All he has to do is time travel back to the time Goku first arrived on earth and kill him then.



does flash have enough brute force to kill a kid goku? ahah ;p


----------



## Deleted member 15401 (Dec 8, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> [SIZE=-1]A bullet of mass m=5g moving horizontally at the speed of 500m/s would merely equate to 2500 newtons.
> 
> Flash's punch is *BEYOND* [/SIZE]*99999999999999999999999999999999999**99999999999999999*^_99999999999999999999999999999999999999
> 
> ...



sorry for double posting, but im sure if the dc writers intended physics to be calculated and for flash's punch to be set at an infinite mass, he'd be more of a villain?

if his punch mass is "infite" it means hes stronger than supes post crisis.. and if he defeated the anti-monitor like that, doesnt that just make him..
oh i dunno, *BROKEN?*


----------



## Hiruma (Dec 8, 2005)

In fact the Flash IS broken, forget the infinite mass punch, what about vibrating thorugh a guy and making explode? That's why they had to give Wally an extreme flaw(arrogance).


----------



## Amatsu (Dec 8, 2005)

bah Goku needs to take forever yelling like a constipated idiot to do anything. Flash would just vibrate through him. Thus Goku explodes and dies.


----------



## Luciferxxxxx (Dec 8, 2005)

Goku would win by default. I agree with Cable, he is faster than Flash... 
he will destroyed Flash in sec.... >_>

BTW, I don't know about much too Flash............


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

vagnard said:
			
		

> Please...show me a picture of Flash doing an infinite mass punch hurting class 100 like Superman, Hulk or Captain Marvel. All of you are acting like Flash will start with his potential at max....we have seen Flash being owned by guys like Deathstroke. How about his regulars enemies?...Captain Boomerang, Captain Cold, Grood, Abra Kadabra....have any of them light speed?....why then Wally has problems defeating any of them?
> 
> 
> 
> uh?....Have you count the amount of Kame Hame and blasts capable to blow a mountain that are fired in DBZ per fight?...Goku FIGHTS in the sky, Goku shoots mega hyper blasts, Goku uses shunkanido.....can you tell me about Flash using in regular basis light speed, time travel, infinite mass punch, etc, etc ?


Flash doesnt go beyond the speed of sound on Earth so he cant create any destructive event around him.  Speed of sound = sonic boom = everything behind him destroyed.

LOOK AT FIRST PAGE:

They both enter arena to save their own universe and whoever kills the other one saves their universe.  Flash beat Quicksilver in this exact same situation in DC vs Marvel #1.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> here we go again with the one sided images, do u have a flash vs capt boomerang image, prolly not cause that would downplay him a lot. how bout an image of flash fighting Deathstroke<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Goku. DC and DB are two totally different concepts more than DC and Marvel. speed force is a concept only DC has and considering that the speed force is attained by people not born with the ability to run that damn fast, Goku would have attained that by DC theory. no one has even really used the speed force as a factor in this thread, we're really going off of the fact Flash can run at the speed of light and higher and do things that running at or higher than the speed of light enables u to do.
> 
> with that being said goku could just charge his ki enough to cause a big explosive wave of ki, and u can't say flash can vibrate through it because he hasn't encountered anyone like goku. there's a lot of things goku can and a lot of things flash can do and like i said, i don't care about that huge monster because most likely goku is stronger than that.
> 
> ...


Anything moving = kinetic energy

Ki moving = kinetic energy


----------



## ydraliskos (Dec 8, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> [SIZE=-1]A bullet of mass m=5g moving horizontally at the speed of 500m/s would merely equate to 2500 newtons.
> 
> Flash's punch is *BEYOND* [/SIZE]*99999999999999999999999999999999999**99999999999999999*^_99999999999999999999999999999999999999
> 
> ...



I can't believe you re using half assed physics to argue about this? How about the moment he turns his hand to infinte mass, he and the whole fuckin reality get sucked up in the reverse big bang and the universe gets uncreated? Yeah infinites can do that also, besides throwing punches and arguments.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

ydraliskos said:
			
		

> I can't believe you re using half assed physics to argue about this? How about the moment he turns his hand to infinte mass, he and the whole fuckin reality get sucked up in the reverse big bang and the universe gets uncreated? Yeah infinites can do that also, besides throwing punches and arguments.


 waiting to see if someone caught that heh.

Anyway he can still vibrate through his head.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

ydraliskos said:
			
		

> I can't believe you re using half assed physics to argue about this? How about the moment he turns his hand to infinte mass, he and the whole fuckin reality get sucked up in the reverse big bang and the universe gets uncreated? Yeah infinites can do that also, besides throwing punches and arguments.


actually now that i think about it, the speed force negates that clause.  Speed force supports other life forms he's carrying, you bring this to air around his hand (which im sure he can do) he has unlimited possibilites with the punch.


----------



## ydraliskos (Dec 8, 2005)

Gah... .. foiled by the speed force? such is the destiny of logic !


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

ydraliskos said:
			
		

> Gah... .. foiled by the speed force? such is the destiny of logic !



Speed Force > Logic


----------



## Viciousness (Dec 8, 2005)

Bullet, I have the utmost respect for you digging up these scans of Flash's feats. But destroying a robot isnt that impressive to begin with, and in the time travel one it clearly states he went through some sort of alien accelerator, Sure you may find one where he did it on his own, but that'd clearly be an outlier on the high end of the spectrum of what he's normally capable. If unknowndanex posted a pic of Flash struggling with Captain Boomerang would that mean Goku would just vaporize him instantly? Probably not because thats probably closer to the low end of the spectrum on Flash's inconsistent power.
But the middle ground flash which is truest to what was intended, more so than any writer that decides to get carried away with his power (say someone decides to make Flash create a blackhole by simply running, and hes now the strongest DC character???) its that flash, the truest representation of him that should be used in battledome fights. Not one thats going to vibrate inside of everyone on earth and make them blow up in an instant if he wanted.

 If Flash can just pull out a mass that is truly INFINITE, and INFINITE speed, then you have the strongest hero in the DC universe, which is definately not something he's intended to be.


			
				braindx said:
			
		

> I read that and it didn't really say anything we didn't know already. And if you actually read the stuff posted by Kamendex and myself, you would know why *CHOU* Gohan will always be stronger than Goku. ALWAYS.



Kamendex? man forget him, he ran off as soon as I posted that quote. The guy was saying pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks >>> SSJ3 Goku . Youre just mentioning his name because he was extremely anti-goku biased and on your side that time.

If anyone Kamendex definately didnt know that quote with a comment like that.  The point is Goku wasnt all that much weaker than Gohan pretimeskip, especially compared to their distance at the end of the Cell saga, and Goku also wasnt anywhere near his max power. If he has a power cap that has to be between the distance between him and Gohan then he wouldnt be much weaker than Gohan. 
Kamendex was quoting freaking Radditz as a reason why Goku couldnt be as strong as Gohan. As far as Radditz was concerned Goku was a 3rd class saiyajin who'd never become stronger than him to begin with. When Vegeta made the comment, he had never seen anything near what Super Saiyajin was capable of, and it's most likely if there is a Legendary Super Saiyajin then Goku is it. He broke whatever limits he should have had a long time ago. Gohan's had this hidden power bursting out of him for years now and he's been struggling to reach the limit ever since. None of the other main characters had some power they were supposed to achieve, they broke all barriers through training to get where they were at. Gohan just achieved the power he was supposed to have all along at the end.

If youre going to cite Toriyama wanting to end the fighting part of the series with Gohan beating Cell and him as the strongest then you could also say Toriyama originally wanted to end things at the end of the Freeza saga with Goku dying as the strongest, a Super Saiyajin. Every time skip Goku's gotten significantly stronger, and the changes got bigger each time, so to say he wouldnt at the end is ludicrous.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

People just seem to be ignorant and not reading what I'm writing, so I'm gonna stop replying here.


----------



## Viciousness (Dec 8, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> People just seem to be ignorant and not reading what I'm writing, so I'm gonna stop replying here.



You talking about the infinite mass stuff? Its not that I didnt read it, I didnt feel the need to adress your point specifically since Im already saying bringing up Infinite Mass simply because flash says he's capable of it is BS when there has to be some actual limit on his power. Like I said if we accept his mass can become Infinite then Flash whos already faster than Supes would now have to be better than him since youre basically saying because of physics And in the DC Universe thats definately not the case. So if Flash has a cap on his power you cant say its high enought to punch a hole through Goku's face but not Supes or the like.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> You talking about the infinite mass stuff? Its not that I didnt read it, I didnt feel the need to adress your point specifically since Im already saying bringing up Infinite Mass simply because flash says he's capable of it is BS when there has to be some actual limit on his power. Like I said if we accept his mass can become Infinite then Flash whos already faster than Supes would now have to be better than him since youre basically saying because of physics And in the DC Universe thats definately not the case. So if Flash has a cap on his power you cant say its high enought to punch a hole through Goku's face but not Supes or the like.


That's just it, HE DOES have the capability of doing it to supes, but since he's a good guy he WONT.  But in this fight, it's to save his universe so he WILL do it if it's NECESSARY.  Also, Flash's best is so incomprehensible that people just seem to act ignorant toward it since it's so cosmic-like.  All physical attacks are basically negated due to the fact that anything that touches him will simply turn to powder due to his vibrating.  And any ki blast he can just take the kinetic energy out of.  Flash seems incredibly over powered at his maximum, but come on they're both fictional characters.  And the reason WHY Flash has stupid enemies like captain boomerang was because at THAT point in time there was a different writer.  If we both use the maximum potential of both characters, Flash would obviously win.  But if we use the flash that fought cap boom vs Goku on namek,  Goku would obviously win.  As I said, the circumstances are listed on the first page.  It's to save their universe, so they would use their maximum potential.  Flash would win in the circumstance I posted in the first page.


----------



## Viciousness (Dec 8, 2005)

Then if were using the ultimate limit of flash created by that one writer who says Flash can whip out INFINITE speed and mass if he so chooses then flash is the most bullshit character of all time and no one can beat him. You might as well say if flash had to fight superman prime and go all out then Flash >>Superman Prime, and do you really think the majority of DC comic writers would agree with that?


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Then if were using the ultimate limit of flash created by that one writer who says Flash can whip out INFINITE speed and mass if he so chooses then flash is the most bullshit character of all time and no one can beat him. You might as well say if flash had to fight superman prime and go all out then Flash >>Superman Prime, and do you really think the majority of DC comic writers would agree with that?


Nope lol.  But Flash is incredibly overpowered for sure.  I certaintly agree with you on that.


----------



## CABLE (Dec 8, 2005)

LOL! someone negged me for this thread!


----------



## korican04 (Dec 8, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Then if were using the ultimate limit of flash created by that one writer who says Flash can whip out INFINITE speed and mass if he so chooses then flash is the most bullshit character of all time and no one can beat him. You might as well say if flash had to fight superman prime and go all out then Flash >>Superman Prime, and do you really think the majority of DC comic writers would agree with that?


Well actually, flash (barry allen) did stop the anti-monitor, arguably the most powerful threat in dc. Who was going to eradicate the entire multiverse, basically every universe that exists in dc. So yeah, using flash's powers he can be ridiculously powerful. I already said this, they make flash as powerful as they need to, to deal with threats. That's why if you read flash comics or justice league comics flash will either do something stupid, or something just ridiculous.

Flash doesn't have infinite speed, as something approaches the speed of light you obtain infinite mass, they try to tie in relativity from physics to explain some of the things the flash does, but it doesn't work half the time.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> Well actually, flash (barry allen) did stop the anti-monitor, arguably the most powerful threat in dc. Who was going to eradicate the entire multiverse, basically every universe that exists in dc. So yeah, using flash's powers he can be ridiculously powerful. I already said this, they make flash as powerful as they need to, to deal with threats. That's why if you read flash comics or justice league comics flash will either do something stupid, or something just ridiculous.


Exactly what I've been trying to get at.


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## link 2 oblivion (Dec 8, 2005)

Goku cause he's got speed and powah.


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## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

link 2 oblivion said:
			
		

> Goku cause he's got speed and powah.


read the damn thread.


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## Viciousness (Dec 8, 2005)

Yeah I think if we realized Goku was up against the most poweful character of all time besides the God of the Universe, we would have never spoke to begin with. Since DC is broken and Flash can become more powerful than anyone in the DC universe when he decides to and hes going to decide to against Goku then Goku loses. And all power comic ranking lists from now on shall put Flash at the top of their list, unless theyre including things like idea of evil or god of the Universe.


----------



## uncle jafuncle (Dec 8, 2005)

DC will make up some ridiculous physics tie-in so that Flash thinks at such a high velocity his brain waves cause Goku's Ki to explode inside his body...and then Toriyama will have the smoke clear and somehow Goku will have survived the unsurvivable as he has many times before.  This fight will never end I tell you!


----------



## ydraliskos (Dec 8, 2005)

You people take small comments and power descriptions WAY too seriously.

you take something that is not supposed to make sense, and apply normal physics to it, and you come up with some crazy rules and results, and then you wonder why flash is god.

But anyway, if it's fun for you.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

lol yeah i guess flash is a weeee bit too powerful...


----------



## unknowndanex (Dec 8, 2005)

um when did Flash beat the anti-monitor, wasn't it Doctor Light, Alexander Luthor, Darkseid, Superboy, and Earth-2 Superman.  Flash sacrificed himself along with supergirl and the anti-monitor was still kickin.  Must've have been the writers once again because Flash's "infinite" mass punch should've knocked him out just like yall supposedly have him being able to basically kill everyone else.

ydraliskos, we aren't the only one's applying physics, DC chooses to put some type of physics in their comic all the time, and then in another comic they will break every law.   its just the inconsistencies that bother me, sometimes they are bound by physics and then next time they aren't.  

and considering goku is the more consistent character, goku will win the fight considering flash in DC is good hero and pretty strong, but in the DB world, he wouldn't get that much respect forreal.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> um when did Flash beat the anti-monitor, wasn't it Doctor Light, Alexander Luthor, Darkseid, Superboy, and Earth-2 Superman. Flash sacrificed himself along with supergirl and the anti-monitor was still kickin. Must've have been the writers once again because Flash's "infinite" mass punch should've knocked him out just like yall supposedly have him being able to basically kill everyone else.
> 
> ydraliskos, we aren't the only one's applying physics, DC chooses to put some type of physics in their comic all the time, and then in another comic they will break every law. its just the inconsistencies that bother me, sometimes they are bound by physics and then next time they aren't.
> 
> and considering goku is the more consistent character, goku will win the fight considering flash in DC is good hero and pretty strong, but in the DB world, he wouldn't get that much respect forreal.


Bullet showed the picture of Flash beating him.  Go look for it in this thread.


----------



## Gooba (Dec 8, 2005)

Flash wins, I don't feel like reasing all of this, but I have read the end of DBZ (Freeza-Buu) and there is no way for Goku to touch Flash, and Flash can just punch him with infinite force (more than anyone in DBZ could ever dream of).


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

Gooba said:
			
		

> Flash wins, I don't feel like reasing all of this, but I have read the end of DBZ (Freeza-Buu) and there is no way for Goku to touch Flash, and Flash can just punch him with infinite force (more than anyone in DBZ could ever dream of).


THANK YOU, EXACTLY!


----------



## Viciousness (Dec 8, 2005)

Gooba said:
			
		

> Flash wins, I don't feel like reasing all of this, but I have read the end of DBZ (Freeza-Buu) and there is no way for Goku to touch Flash, and Flash can just punch him with infinite force (more than anyone in DBZ could ever dream of).



If its infinite I guess its more than anyone else in DC can dream of either.

and the point in gokus favor wasnt him touching flash or even expanding his ki to. It was that he could blow up the chunk of the earth they are on then the one closest to it if he has to to destroy flash, or blwow up the planet. But since the argument is being made that Flash can be the most powerful character of all time and that hes going to do that then I guess we have to hand it to him

But Luckey where is the picture of flash beating anti-moniter you say he posted? I looked through all of the pics he posted thsis thread and didnt see that one.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> If its infinite I guess its more than anyone else in DC can dream of either.
> 
> and the point in gokus favor wasnt him touching flash or even expanding his ki to. It was that he could blow up the chunk of the earth they are on then the one closest to it if he has to to destroy flash, or blwow up the planet. But since the argument is being made that Flash can be the most powerful character of all time and that hes going to do that then I guess we have to hand it to him
> 
> But Luckey where is the picture of flash beating anti-moniter you say he posted? I looked through all of the pics he posted thsis thread and didnt see that one.


----------



## korican04 (Dec 8, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> um when did Flash beat the anti-monitor, wasn't it Doctor Light, Alexander Luthor, Darkseid, Superboy, and Earth-2 Superman.  Flash sacrificed himself along with supergirl and the anti-monitor was still kickin.  Must've have been the writers once again because Flash's "infinite" mass punch should've knocked him out just like yall supposedly have him being able to basically kill everyone else.


I think this is corret, I know flash was able to stop him for a lil bit but antimonitor like a good villain came back.


----------



## Gene (Dec 8, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> Flash's mind thinks practically at the speed of light, he would have thought of trillions of different calculations and events to take out Goku before Goku can even count to ONE.



How come he couldn't think of a single calculation/event to take out these guys here by himself?  (picture is from you)
He's not as god-like as you think he is and even he sometimes needs help from other people to take out a bunch of giant-robots.



			
				Luckey said:
			
		

> *Supercharged Brain Activity:* The Flash's mental abilities are also increased in speed, simple computations can be done at lightning speeds, and his ability to perform normal feats at increased speeds has allow him to build hundreds of force field generators in a matter of hours, move sandbags to cover a beach or search an entire area for something as small as a paper clip.



Isn't there a possibility of his brain overloading from taking in too much information & doing too many things at once? Everybody's brain has a limit.

I'm am starting to see how Flash can beat Goku, but not quite yet.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

Techno Goku said:
			
		

> How come he couldn't think of a single calculation/event to take out these guys here by himself?  (picture is from you)
> He's not as god-like as you think he is and even he sometimes needs help from other people to take out a bunch of giant-robots.
> 
> 
> ...



Easy, because that story was done by a different writer.  What we've stated is that the maximum flash will *easily* kill the maximum goku.


----------



## Gene (Dec 8, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> Easy, because that story was done by a different writer.  What we've stated is that the maximum flash will *easily* kill the maximum goku.



I still don't get it. *sigh* If only I had read the comics (instead of watching JLU on cartoonnetwork), then this would be a lot easier on my head.:


----------



## Gooba (Dec 8, 2005)

The reason: Plot hole no jutsu.  They use it with the Flash all the time because none of his comics would be any fun, unless they were all against people with superspeed as well.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 8, 2005)

Techno Goku said:
			
		

> How come he couldn't think of a single calculation/event to take out these guys here by himself?  (picture is from you)
> He's not as god-like as you think he is and even he sometimes needs help from other people to take out a bunch of giant-robots.
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, they have to make Flash stupid sometimes or the comics would be boring. As for Flash's upper limit on brain activity lol There hasnt been one yet  

person's

person's

person's

Flash can out think the fastest computer from the *853rd* century. He can ran billions of calculations in a few nanoseconds. I also have a pic of two speedsters having a whole conversation in a couple of attoseconds (10^-18 seconds) but that was in the time stream  


Funny though, almost all Goku supporters take Goku at his best at the end of the series, yet they keep bringing up Flash's problem's earlier in the comics. Flash in is own comic isnt as arrogant as he used to be, Linda is his anchor as they say. Flash has also pretty much mastered faster then light travel and time travel in the later comics. How come you take Goku at his best but insist at talking about Flash vs Captain Boomerange or whatever? Just as Goku's power grows as the series goes on, so does the Flash's.


----------



## Arilou (Dec 8, 2005)

Still he was stabbed by a normal (okay, mostly normal) guy with a sword


----------



## The Wanderer (Dec 8, 2005)

The morale of the day compadres: 

The powers of comic characters can change dramatically according to the writer, that's why they're so broken, no more, no less. I can make Flash go screaming around, unable to think how to take a bunch or human thieves, and a week later, Flash will be able to defeat a whole army of Silver Surfers, Prescences and Living Tribunals with a plan he made up in 0.5 seconds. The source of their powers is the writers, don't you dare to forget that people . . .

I wonder how things would go if we could do the same with manga characters. There are huge chances that some mangaka would make a version of Goku with "updated powers" (1000X Faster than Max Flash, 1000X stronger than Guilt Hulk, Superman Prime and The Champion together, inmunity to reality manipulation, ki based attacks on a whole new level, who knows)  Chances are that some peope  wouldn't like the idea of upgrading a manga character to that extent (Claiming that they would be too broken . . . Yah sure, too broken  ), yet they don't say nothing about the ludicrous improvements of a comic character . . . Characters like Goku, Seiya, Lina Inverse, Dark Schenider, Edward Elric, Yoh Asakura, Killua and Ban Midou in the hands of that kind of writers would sodomize the comic universe huh ? I bet that some people in the outskirts battledome as mangakas would do that

This thread is just like the "Gold Saint vs a non-cosmic enemy" some people hate . . .

Now, about the fight itself: Flash wins, but he's no that godly . . .


----------



## Arilou (Dec 8, 2005)

It's really quite easy to explain.

Both comics and manga suffer from "power creep", that is, characters tends to gain new and improved powers as time goes on (actually, manga tends to suffer *more* from this, they seem to have basically a "level-up" system built into the story a lot of times) Now, one of the differneces here is that most comics are assumed to be running continously, while manga are supposed to go from A to B. This means that in a manga you can keep increasing the powers of the characters and just end it when they become too powerful.

You can't do that in a comic book, too powerful characters become boring if over-used. So hence comic character's power tends to go up and down like a yo-yo.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 8, 2005)

Arilou said:
			
		

> It's really quite easy to explain.
> 
> Both comics and manga suffer from "power creep", that is, characters tends to gain new and improved powers as time goes on (actually, manga tends to suffer *more* from this, they seem to have basically a "level-up" system built into the story a lot of times) Now, one of the differneces here is that most comics are assumed to be running continously, while manga are supposed to go from A to B. This means that in a manga you can keep increasing the powers of the characters and just end it when they become too powerful.
> 
> You can't do that in a comic book, too powerful characters become boring if over-used. So hence comic character's power tends to go up and down like a yo-yo.



*cough*DB GT*cough* lol


----------



## uncle jafuncle (Dec 8, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> THANK YOU, EXACTLY!



Why did you make the fucking fight then?  If you believe this is so one-sided what's the god damn point...


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> *cough*DB GT*cough* lol


HAHAHA THATS RIGHT!!!


A whole nother writer wrote dbgt.  In dbz it was said that frieza was one of the most feared in the universe yet super saiyans had trouble fighting people in space   AHAAAHA  they definately made some overpowered chars there, especially shenron evil and ssj4 gogeta


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

uncle jafuncle said:
			
		

> Why did you make the fucking fight then? If you believe this is so one-sided what's the god damn point...


because I wanted to make a point to all these tards that say goku would obviously win.


----------



## unknowndanex (Dec 8, 2005)

well, we've korican has basically agreed with me that flash did not actually beat the anti-monitor, flash died as an affect.  

now u were sayin earlier about flash in his later stages, lost to deathstroke or has anyone come up with an excuse for that yet.

i haven't seen one really good point of saying flash would win, u guys are overpowering him more than even DC does, yall have him basically as the greatest comic book creation ever, but DC would most likely give that to superman.

if we go off writers, DC will say superman is the best as far as DC heroes are concerned, that is one thing that would be consistent.  if we go off toriyama, goku is the best in dbz.  so stop overrating the guy.

u can't call people tards just because they have an opinion, maybe i can call u a tard because u still haven't showed me proof that flash beat anti-monitor, that one pic is not the whole comic.  a comic in which flash did not beat the anti-monitor.  but in actuallity i'm not gonna call u a tard because u were tryin to prove your opinion.

all in all, flash would be the top guy in DC if he were as strong as u guys claim but he is not.  DC doesnt have him rated that high, Wizard had him as number 5 on the top 10 under Supes, WW, Thor, and SS.  and has anyone neglect to mention sense we keep talkin bout vibrating and shit, that goku could just leave an image of himself in one spot considering thats how fast he was in the frieza saga in normal mode, not even kaioken.  he was so fast that it appeared he was standing in one spot while fireballs were going through him.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Dec 8, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> if we go off writers, DC will say superman is the best as far as DC heroes are concerned, that is one thing that would be consistent.  if we go off toriyama, goku is the best in dbz.  so stop overrating the guy.



A) This isn't a good compairison, as DC is to the publisher of DBZ, the writer of the Flash compairs to Toriyama.  Flash is probably the strongest character that's in almost every issue of "The Flash."

B) If you asked Toriyama, he'd tell you that Gohan is the strongest character in Dragonball.  That was ALWAYS his intent in the series.  Goku was bested by a number of different characters in the series people need to step back and stop thinking that he was the end-all-be-all of characters.

C) Even if he was the strongest character and Flash was one of the weakest it doesn't matter because they're different serieses.  The average levels of power are different between them.  Just like Bleach and Naruto are in the same publication doesn't mean that Naruto's a match for everyone in Bleach.  Bleach (generally speaking) has a higher class/power of bad guys, thus requires a higher class/power of good guys.  Hell, Ranma's the best fighter in his series but he wouldn't last 3 seconds against Goku.



> all in all, flash would be the top guy in DC if he were as strong as u guys claim but he is not. DC doesnt have him rated that high, Wizard had him as number 5 on the top 10 under Supes, WW, Thor, and SS. and has anyone neglect to mention sense we keep talkin bout vibrating and shit, that goku could just leave an image of himself in one spot considering thats how fast he was in the frieza saga in normal mode, not even kaioken. he was so fast that it appeared he was standing in one spot while fireballs were going through him.



Here the problem is Wizard is not DC, it's an independant magazine.  In your "Top 10" Thor and Silver Surfer are both Marvel characters, so even using that list puts him at number 3 in the entire DC universe.  Gohan and Cell were both above Goku so he's no better than 3 in his universe as well (substitue Buu in for Cell if you prefer).  Of course, as I said above this doesn't matter.

Gases have higher energy levels than liquids so if I can stand gassic oxygen I'm probably okay sticking my hand into liquid iron, right?


----------



## unknowndanex (Dec 8, 2005)

if drunkenyoshimaster would go ahead and post what toriyama said, then that basically validate that at the end goku was the strongest, but til then i guess i will have to hear this.

i don't have it but it was something along the lines of "before the timeskip SSJ3gotenks was SLIGHTLY stronger than Goku and of course Gohan was the strongest"  later "goku will alwasys tbe the best"  some of it could be messed up but that something like what DY posted i'll wait for him.  Now if u figure out that Gohan doesn't train and Goku does nothing but train, after 10 years Goku would be the strongest.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 8, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> well, we've korican has basically agreed with me that flash did not actually beat the anti-monitor, flash died as an affect.



First off, Korican was talking about the actual Crisis. Barry Allen did die saving the multiverse from the Anti-Moniter. However, what I was talking about and that picture is NOT from the Crisis. It was from the Flash comic where time gets screwed up and Flash (Wally West) has to go back in time to make sure (a stronger form of) the Anti-moniter is defeated so time can be fixed.

Second off, I never said Flash beat the Anti-moniter. I said he destroyed the Anti-moniter's physical body. Anti-moniters true form is pretty much just a bunch of energy. However, destroying the body of the Anti-moniter is a true feat since he was a cosmic and not even a army of superhero's includeing TWO superman's could do it. Also, the Anti-moniter whose body was destroyed by the Flash was stronger then the actual Anti-moniter in the crisis. Although, even then Anti-moniter was weakened from a superblast from Dr. Light and the army of superhero's, but even after that the Anti-moniter had the power to wipe out every superhero there excludeing the Flash who was invisiable (oh ya, I dont think people have mentioned that the Flash could turn invisible by vibrating himself lol). So, no, Flash is not > then the Anti-moniter. I just included that pic to show that the Flash is powerfull, definatly in Superman's league in strength if he has the motivation to be.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> now u were sayin earlier about flash in his later stages, lost to deathstroke or has anyone come up with an excuse for that yet.



Perfect example of plot no jutsu. I can give you hundreds of scans that prove that the real Flash would never have been caught by that trick. Heck I have a scan that shows Flash running with an exploding bomb in his hand and he has time to cover it with hundreds of tires before it even explodes, yet somehow Flash was stopped by Deathstrokes explosions. The writers of Identity Crisis are not the writters of The Flash.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> i haven't seen one really good point of saying flash would win, u guys are overpowering him more than even DC does, yall have him basically as the greatest comic book creation ever, but DC would most likely give that to superman.



True, some people my overhype Flash, but most of what has been said about Flash is true (although I do believe people over rate infinite mass punch, Its not truely "infinite" but definatly packs a HUGE punch, supermanstyle punch atleast). Flash is definatly in Superman's league atleast.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> u can't call people tards just because they have an opinion, maybe i can call u a tard because u still haven't showed me proof that flash beat anti-monitor, that one pic is not the whole comic.  a comic in which flash did not beat the anti-monitor.  but in actuallity i'm not gonna call u a tard because u were tryin to prove your opinion.



Again, I think my intent in giving that scan has been scewed. I said when I first posted the pic that Flash destroyed Anti-moniters body, perhaps I should have mentioned destroying the anti-moniters body =/= killing him buts its still hella impressive non-the-less though.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and has anyone neglect to mention sense we keep talkin bout vibrating and shit, that goku could just leave an image of himself in one spot considering thats how fast he was in the frieza saga in normal mode, not even kaioken.  he was so fast that it appeared he was standing in one spot while fireballs were going through him.



Forget afterimages, Flash can turn invisiable  Also, Flash in hyper-mode would be able to track Goku's movements and he would know which is the real one. After images only really work in the DB world when the person is slower or the same speed as you. I think you underestimate just how fast the speed of light is.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

> well, we've korican has basically agreed with me that flash did not actually beat the anti-monitor, flash died as an affect.


 He beat him, but he was put back together later on. He did in fact beat him. That's like saying Goku didn't defeat Frieza because he came back as mecha frieza and was destroyed by Future Trunks.



> now u were sayin earlier about flash in his later stages, lost to deathstroke or has anyone come up with an excuse for that yet.


 As I stated and you've stated, Flash has many different authors and writers. They display Flash in their own way with his own limitations. The writer that allowed Flash to be beaten by Deathstroke is different from the Writer that allowed Flash to travel to the end of the Universe or vibrate through a robot. Flash is displayed all throughout the series with different limitations to his powers. What we've stated is that we are using the strongest Flash ever written by anyone versus Goku in his ultimate and most powerful form.



> i haven't seen one really good point of saying flash would win, u guys are overpowering him more than even DC does, yall have him basically as the greatest comic book creation ever, but DC would most likely give that to superman.


 The Flash has beaten people with equivalent strength to Superman. They only use superman because he is the most widely-known superhero they have. Superman is limited in ways, but if you theoretically consider the maximum *potential* Flash has, he would be capable of defeating even Superman.



> if we go off writers, DC will say superman is the best as far as DC heroes are concerned, that is one thing that would be consistent.


 No, as I stated earlier, if you look at every fact throughout the history of both of them being written, Flash having the Speed Force enables him to actually overpower Superman. This in turn makes Flash a broken character. With his theoretical power, he could quite possibly even beat the best version of superman: PC Supes.




> if we go off toriyama, goku is the best in dbz. so stop overrating the guy.


 If you follow DBZ then gotenks is the strongest throughout the series. If you follow DBGT, then Goku is the strongest throughout the series.



> u can't call people tards just because they have an opinion, maybe i can call u a tard


 I can call people whatever I want whenever I want. Of course you can call me a tard, it's quite possible...



> u still haven't showed me proof that flash beat anti-monitor, that one pic is not the whole comic.


 You expect me to show every jpeg through that and show the events leading up to Flash defeating Anti-monitor? Flash defeated him and the comic stated that he did. Even though he came back, he still defeated him in THAT BATTLE. Ever heard of the term won the battle but not the war?




> a comic in which flash did not beat the anti-monitor.


 That's when the anti-monitor comes back.




> but in actuallity i'm not gonna call u a tard because u were tryin to prove your opinion.


 Thank you, <3



> all in all, flash would be the top guy in DC if he were as strong as u guys claim but he is not.


 I've already said how he is indeed the strongest. Read the aforementioned things that I've said. (basically speedforce makes him the best)



> DC doesnt have him rated that high,


 Show me where DC doesnt have him rated that high.



> Wizard had him as number 5 on the top 10 under Supes, WW, Thor, and SS.


 Wizard may be the most respected comic magazine, but pardon my language, Who gives a shit? Ever heard of the term People are entitled to their own opinion?



> and has anyone neglect to mention sense we keep talkin bout vibrating and shit, that goku could just leave an image of himself in one spot considering thats how fast he was in the frieza saga in normal mode, not even kaioken.


 I can't believe you brought a speed-related feat of Goku. It was already stated that to travel around the Earth at the speed of light 10 times would take 1.3 seconds. It took Gotenks 10+ minutes to circle it several times, and HE'S THE STRONGEST IN DBZ. Even if he wasnt the strongest in DBZ, he's still approximately 60 times slower than the speed of light (math explained below). If there was indeed someone stronger, how much stronger would he be than Gotenks, twice as strong? three times as strong? Even if that imaginary person were three times as strong, he'd still be 20 times slower than the speed of light (Flash can EXCEDE the speed of light).


10 minutes  =  600 seconds
600seconds / 10revolutions  =  60 seconds

Gotenks: 60 second to revolve around earth once
Speed of Light: 1 second to revolve around earth once
Flash = Faster than speed of light.


> he was so fast that it appeared he was standing in one spot while fireballs were going through him.


 Flash vibrated so fast that it appeared he was INVISIBILE.


----------



## TGC (Dec 8, 2005)

Goku would take this one IMO


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## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

the_genius_captain said:
			
		

> Goku would take this one IMO


lol nice one


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## Fenix (Dec 8, 2005)

Goku wins because the Flash like many of his friends, are poorly designed characters.......


----------



## Viciousness (Dec 8, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> if drunkenyoshimaster would go ahead and post what toriyama said, then that basically validate that at the end goku was the strongest, but til then i guess i will have to hear this.
> 
> i don't have it but it was something along the lines of "before the timeskip SSJ3gotenks was SLIGHTLY stronger than Goku and of course Gohan was the strongest"  later "goku will alwasys tbe the best"  some of it could be messed up but that something like what DY posted i'll wait for him.  Now if u figure out that Gohan doesn't train and Goku does nothing but train, after 10 years Goku would be the strongest.



"Nirazaki: I know that a lot of people want to hear more about fusion. With Gotenkusu now in the story, will he play that big of a role? And most of all, is he stronger than Son Goku himself?

Toriyama-san: Well I dont know yet. Ive planned some things with Gotenkusu, but he wont be the focus of the entire saga. Youll see as things develop. As for their strength, Gotenkusu is a little bit stronger, but you wouldnt notice a difference. Still, Son Goku will always be the most skilled martial artist! (Smiles) But Gotenkusu will not be the only person to go higher than son Goku. "

He mentions Super Gotenksu several times in this interview, and Gottenks only uses that phrase after he's gone SSJ3, Gohan was still being powered up regardless, but no one had seen what he was capable. People will cite Goku saying he and Vegeta couldnt beat super buu as a reason Goku << Gotenks, but the truth is Gotenks couldnt either, he was just cocky and kept trying everything thinking he could obliterate him. Goku's more realistic and knows knocking Buu around isnt going to defeat him, and Vegeta would probably get absorbed and make matters worse.

Anyway Gohan realized the potential he was always destined to have and that kept bursting out of him, but you guys are taking this potential thing too strictly. Its just the power he was always destined to have that kept bursting out of him since he was a toddler.  Goku's been acheived all the potential he was supposed to have as a 3rd class saiyajin, and surpassed that to become the legendary (full blooeded) super saiyajin. 

He was still getting stronger at the end and training those 10 years until the true end of the manga. If theres some absolute maximum he cant surpass their no matter how long he trains because you want to beleive the universe works like that all of a sudden, then he's not going to be that much weaker than gohan at the end and would probably beat him thanks to techniques and being "the most skilled martial artist" The gap between them was much larger at the end of the cell games, and he surpassed that by a long shot in 7 years.
If you want to say that earlier he wanted to end the series with Gohan on top, even before that he wanted Goku to be the strongest as the LSSJ who died on Namek. The guys changed his plans as much as he has bulma change her hair.

As for Flash's Infinite mass punch, people are saying he'd beat goku easily with it because it's infinite. Well if its infinite then he'd beat anyone with it and thats definately not the case, it has a limit. Wonder Woman said his punch felt like Supermans, the same superman that was seriously holding back on her, and even she with her subsonic max speed managed to practically fight evenly. Either this guy has a limit in power and its no where near superman's like most DC writers would probably agree, or he is on some infinite bullshit which is way above even superman prime, and theres no point in debating any character against him save God. 

The flash as he's most consistently used in the comics wouldnt be able to seriously damage Goku, and even if he could Goku can still resort to flying and blowing up a portion of the planet or the whole thing then teleporting elsewhere. He'd probably have problems just getting through the ki field as its a high level energy field like those that were said to mess up his molecular powers at the beggining of this thread. People act like Goku takes as long to notice things as a normal human, despite the fact that he's constantly fighting at speeds too fast to be visible, and dodging lightspeed blasts.

DB gets no respect since it became toonami fodder. Youd never hear half of these ridiculous physics bending arguments used in threads against other comic characters, but whenever theres a DBZ thread, you hear characters BSed to the fullest extent a line from their comics will allow, and in the flash's case that extent is infinite...


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## pnoypridz (Dec 8, 2005)

Flash most powerful dude in DC???

hes not even top 3 in JLA that belongs to

martian manhunter
superman
green lantern


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## uncle jafuncle (Dec 8, 2005)

pnoypridz said:
			
		

> Flash most powerful dude in DC???
> 
> hes not even top 3 in JLA that belongs to
> 
> ...



Not according to the Flash fanboys...apparently Flash is stronger than everyone as well as faster and he can beat anyone in less than a tenth of a second...fucking giant red vibrator...


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 8, 2005)

pnoypridz said:
			
		

> Flash most powerful dude in DC???
> 
> hes not even top 3 in JLA that belongs to
> 
> ...



Wizard has him 5th in all of comics and 3rd in DC. Of course I dont fully agree with Wizards list, but it still says something about Flash.

Martian manhunter? Didnt Flash beat a white martian who are more or less the same as the Martian manhunter?


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## korican04 (Dec 8, 2005)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Wizard has him 5th in all of comics and 3rd in DC. Of course I dont fully agree with Wizards list, but it still says something about Flash.
> 
> Martian manhunter? Didnt Flash beat a white martian who are more or less the same as the Martian manhunter?


yeah but jon jon knows the flash's powers and would become an invisible ghost and could  shut his mind down. That other white martian was clueless. jon jon probably has the most random assortment of powers in one being in the jla.


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## K I S K E (Dec 8, 2005)

Wally West is so fast he has to go slower then he actually could.  Barry Allen died when he went to fast, and West can naturally go faster then that.  If he wasnt a screw around, I'd give it to Wally, but he is.

Now, if he got his hand on Kyle Rayners ring, Goku is fucked.


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## Viciousness (Dec 8, 2005)

Missing Sannin said:
			
		

> Now, if he got his hand on Kyle Rayners ring, Goku is fucked.



Lol, thats like saying if Goku portarra fused with Vegeta, flash is fucked..


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## Deleted member 15401 (Dec 8, 2005)

okok, if the incarnation of flash you are talking about is as strong as you say, what villains, excluding cosmics can even pose a threat to him?


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## Amatsu (Dec 8, 2005)

hjkou said:
			
		

> okok, if the incarnation of flash you are talking about is as strong as you say, what villains, excluding cosmics can even pose a threat to him?



Bizarro Superman?


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## pnoypridz (Dec 8, 2005)

hjkou said:
			
		

> okok, if the incarnation of flash you are talking about is as strong as you say, what villains, excluding cosmics can even pose a threat to him?



Black Adam


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## Bullet (Dec 8, 2005)

uncle jafuncle said:
			
		

> Not according to the Flash fanboys...apparently Flash is stronger than everyone as well as faster and he can beat anyone in less than a tenth of a second...fucking giant red vibrator...



Why is it that every time someone go against Goku in a debate, people have to throw insults and call people fanboys? :S  True Flash is a very powerful character, but he could be deafeated just like every other character; Just not by Goku. You whould have to at least be light speed to even be able to fight with Flash. Flash isn't even the strongest in his own comic, Zoom (who is one of Flash's most powerful enemy) is even more powerful than Flash, who is much faster.

 Flash vs. Zoom II- which ends up in a draw


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## Deleted member 15401 (Dec 8, 2005)

is that an evil version of post crisis level supes?

because if it was.. wouldnt flash be faster than him, therefore he'd be able to land a hit, therefore he'd be able to kill him almost instantly seeing as his punch strength is infinite.

*edit* posted too slow, i was referring to "bizarro superman"


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## Amatsu (Dec 8, 2005)

well then how about Bizzaro Flash or Dark Flash or something. Bet Flash would have a hard time with that


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## Deleted member 15401 (Dec 8, 2005)

lol no offense, but i dont think that you can just post an "evil" or "dark" version of a character when that same character is being argued as broken..


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## korican04 (Dec 8, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Why is it that every time someone go against Goku in a debate, people have to throw insults and call people fanboys? :S  True Flash is a very powerful character, but he could be deafeated just like every other character; Just not by Goku. You whould have to at least be light speed to even be able to fight with Flash. Flash isn't even the strongest in his own comic, Zoom (who is one of Flash's most powerful enemy) is even more powerful than Flash, who is much faster.
> 
> Flash vs. Zoom II- which ends up in a draw


Oh jesus, you just uploaded the fight in between time. Where nothing was really making sense there lol. That entire fight was less than a second, shows really how broken flash can really be.


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## Amatsu (Dec 8, 2005)

lol well you were asking what villians could stand up to Flash... maybe a dark version of Flash is the only thing that can XD


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## pnoypridz (Dec 8, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> Oh jesus, you just uploaded the fight in between time. Where nothing was really making sense there lol.



that issue is already uploaded in Mangacult

i think its issue v2 #200


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## unknowndanex (Dec 8, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> He beat him, but he was put back together later on. He did in fact beat him. That's like saying Goku didn't defeat Frieza because he came back as mecha frieza and was destroyed by Future Trunks.
> 
> As I stated and you've stated, Flash has many different authors and writers. They display Flash in their own way with his own limitations. The writer that allowed Flash to be beaten by Deathstroke is different from the Writer that allowed Flash to travel to the end of the Universe or vibrate through a robot. Flash is displayed all throughout the series with different limitations to his powers. What we've stated is that we are using the strongest Flash ever written by anyone versus Goku in his ultimate and most powerful form.
> 
> ...




ok, luckey, gotenks is not the strongest in DBZ so don't just stop running off at the mouth.  The strongest person to appear in DBZ including fusions would be Super Vegito for all the rest of the people that feel like rating gohan and then gotenks.  Not fused would be Gohan before the time skip.  can u also please stop calculating gotenks traveling around the world in BASE form.  he wasn't even goin full speed, he was actually playin around to test out his body.

it just occurred to me after i kept reading about infinite mass, considering goku is far past that by using IT and can attack using it, shouldn't he be able to attack flash with "infinite mass".

i also was the main one that said people have a right to their opinion, but it seems u contradicted the hell outta yourself by saying "who gives a shit about wizard..........people have the right to there opinion".  i was just putting wizard there because they most likely read way more comics than u, so they have high much higher credibility on Flash than u.

now go get your red shirt with the gold lightning bolt and calculate with the factors of gotenks flyin full speed at SSJ3.

AND ONCE AGAIN SINCE U MIGHT READ OVER IT.
DBZ RATINGS (WITH FUSIONS) BEFORE TIME SKIP:
1. VEGETTO
2. GOHAN
3. GOTENKS
4. GOKU

TIME SKIP (WITH FUSIONS)
1. VEGETTO
2. GOKU
EVERYONE ELSE


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## uncle jafuncle (Dec 8, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Why is it that every time someone go against Goku in a debate, people have to throw insults and call people fanboys? :S



I just dislike broken characters.  I'm not too keen on Goku either it's just I knew he was ridiculous what with his surviving planet destroying attacks and instantly teleporting all over the place and getting stronger every time he's injured.  Being that I'm not a huge Flash follower, I didn't realize he was even worse.:sad


----------



## korican04 (Dec 8, 2005)

pnoypridz said:
			
		

> that issue is already uploaded in Mangacult
> 
> i think its issue v2 #200


yeah I know. I've read it before though, I didn't really get what was going on when zoom II came back, and then later they time traveled and had to fight 2 zooms. That gave me kind of a head ache.


----------



## Amatsu (Dec 8, 2005)

As I said it wouldn't matter. Goku takes so much time doing one freakin' attack that flash could just vibrate through him before he could say "Kamehameha"


----------



## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

uncle jafuncle said:
			
		

> I just dislike broken characters.  I'm not too keen on Goku either it's just I knew he was ridiculous what with his surviving planet destroying attacks and instantly teleporting all over the place and getting stronger every time he's injured.  Being that I'm not a huge Flash follower, I didn't realize he was even worse.:sad


oh, then you really shouldn't read anything with people more powerful than the flash. lol. It might upset you even more.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 9, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> yeah I know. I've read it before though, I didn't really get what was going on when zoom II came back, and then later they time traveled and had to fight 2 zooms. That gave me kind of a head ache.



And that why I love the Flash comics


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## pnoypridz (Dec 9, 2005)

Aethos could u post scans that Flash beats somebody by vibrating through them

i know he can vibrate but i never seen him use it in a offsense


----------



## Bullet (Dec 9, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> Oh jesus, you just uploaded the fight in between time. Where nothing was really making sense there lol. That entire fight was less than a second, shows really how broken flash can really be.



He was only able to do that because of Jesse though.:S I was just really trying to show that Flash even in his own comics, isn't invincible.


----------



## Amatsu (Dec 9, 2005)

pnoypridz said:
			
		

> Aethos could u post scans that Flash beats somebody by vibrating through them
> 
> i know he can vibrate but i never seen him use it in a offsense



I have no scans. I've just heard through MANY of the flash threads in this section that not only can he vibrate his body through solid objects but he can vibrate through people and make them explode on the molecular level.

Thus instant death.

If Goku prepares for his spirit bomb or Kamehameha all Flash would do is vibrate his molecules and run right through Goku causing Goku's body to explode.


----------



## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> ok, luckey, gotenks is not the strongest in DBZ so don't just stop running off at the mouth.  The strongest person to appear in DBZ including fusions would be Super Vegito for all the rest of the people that feel like rating gohan and then gotenks.  Not fused would be Gohan before the time skip.  can u also please stop calculating gotenks traveling around the world in BASE form.  he wasn't even goin full speed, he was actually playin around to test out his body.
> 
> it just occurred to me after i kept reading about infinite mass, considering goku is far past that by using IT and can attack using it, shouldn't he be able to attack flash with "infinite mass".
> 
> ...


good post, but isn't IT basically just limited teleportation, not really movement, so he doesn't really have a speed.


----------



## pnoypridz (Dec 9, 2005)

Aethos said:
			
		

> I have no scans. I've just heard through MANY of the flash threads in this section that not only can he vibrate his body through solid objects but he can vibrate through people and make them explode on the molecular level.
> 
> Thus instant death.
> 
> If Goku prepares for his spirit bomb or Kamehameha all Flash would do is vibrate his molecules and run right through Goku causing Goku's body to explode.



anyone else know wat issue he made something explode by vibrating.......


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 9, 2005)

pnoypridz said:
			
		

> Aethos could u post scans that Flash beats somebody by vibrating through them
> 
> i know he can vibrate but i never seen him use it in a offsense



Link removed

Zoom's powers = Flash's powers. Flash does not use it though because he dosnt kill under normal circumstances. Only under earth threatening circumstances or when his loved ones are in serious danger and there is no way around it. Which kinda happens to be the circumstances of this thread lol

EDIT: Link removed

Thought I would add that in too. Anyways, if you wanted a pic of him making inanimate objects explode, there are hundreds of them. I though you were refering specifically to people lol.


----------



## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

pnoypridz said:
			
		

> anyone else know wat issue he made something explode by vibrating.......


he's made a tomato explode and the weather wizards wand explode, are the issues that are on the ftp.  I could be wrong cause i read those when they came out.
edit.
ahh crap scorpio beat me to it.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

well basically, IT would require fast movement considering he's not dematerializing, and to move instant u have to past the speed of light


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## uncle jafuncle (Dec 9, 2005)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Link removed
> 
> Zoom's powers = Flash's powers. Flash does not use it though because he dosnt kill under normal circumstances. Only under earth threatening circumstances or when his loved ones are in serious danger and there is no way around it. Which kinda happens to be the circumstances of this thread lol



Okay, so why did neither of them explode?  Speed Force?


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## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

uncle jafuncle said:
			
		

> Okay, so why did neither of them explode?  Speed Force?


yeah something along those lines. When ever something the flash does that doesn't make sense just say speed force. Flash can also vibrate his body so he can vibrate them back before they can explode. Does this explanation work, sure, does it make sense, not really.


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## Amatsu (Dec 9, 2005)

uncle jafuncle said:
			
		

> Okay, so why did neither of them explode?  Speed Force?



Because he wasn't going to kill him duh.

Flash could have easily done it though if he wanted.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 9, 2005)

uncle jafuncle said:
			
		

> Okay, so why did neither of them explode?  Speed Force?



The reason why things explode when Flash phases through them is that he agitates the molecules and supercharges them to the point where they explode. However, one of the powers of the Flash is to have complete control over the vibration of their molecules (its what allows them to phase through things lol). So while Zoom could supercharge Flash's particles and hurt him (like he did) he wouldnt explode because Flash could shift his molecules back to a normal vibrational frequencey averting an explosion.

edit: Dang, this time korican beat me to it


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## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> well basically, IT would require fast movement considering he's not dematerializing, and to move instant u have to past the speed of light


I always thought it was teleportion. Since he can go into the world of dead and living through IT like the kai and his teleportation technique.


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## Viciousness (Dec 9, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Why is it that every time someone go against Goku in a debate, people have to throw insults and call people fanboys? :S



Because like I said DB gets no respect since it becamea US fad. As a result if Goku is brought up people generally throw out insults at those who try to defend him and they respond with more insults (even though I wasnt one who did). And once again it was someone arguing against goku who started labelling people fanboys:



			
				radishbak said:
			
		

> Hands up any of the DBZ fanboys who have actually read the Flash series?



and if people were giving arguments in a DC comic battle thread that made Flash seem better than pre-crisis supes or supe prime elsewhere Im sure theyd be called fanboys there too.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

well if its not speed, i would have to compare it to nightcrawler's teleportation then

a nightcrawler vs flash thread would be good, cause nightcrawler is a credible opponent for flash


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## Bullet (Dec 9, 2005)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> The reason why things explode when Flash phases through them is that he agitates the molecules and supercharges them to the point where they explode. However, one of the powers of the Flash is to have complete control over the vibration of their molecules (its what allows them to phase through things lol). So while Zoom could supercharge Flash's particles and hurt him (like he did) he wouldnt explode because Flash could shift his molecules back to a normal vibrational frequencey averting an explosion.
> 
> edit: Dang, this time korican beat me to it



Nice post!


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

give credit to bullet for this image, goku could easily pull this feat.  i can't see it on my computer anymore, but it is a pic of WW adapting to Flash's speed blindfolded.


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## konflikti (Dec 9, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> well if its not speed, i would have to compare it to nightcrawler's teleportation then
> 
> a nightcrawler vs flash thread would be good, cause nightcrawler is a credible opponent for flash


Err... What? That's like saying Nightcrawler is credible opponent for Goku too, because they both have teleportation techniques.

As far as I know, Nightcrawlers teleportation isn't even instant.


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## Luckey (Dec 9, 2005)

God I've had enough of this.  Did you see Zoom's fight?  ALL OF THAT HAPPEND IN A SECOND.  They were fighting in the realm of light speed.  He said his eyes were starting to adjust to meeting the light rather than taking it in.  Before Goku could EVEN  PUT HIS TWO little fingers on his forehead, he could vibrate through his head.  Same with nightcrawler, night crawler would have to think ahead to be flash, as in constantly teleport over and over with even staying in this world less than a billionth of a second, however even then flash could take him out---BILLIONTH OF A SECOND.  remember, speed of light travels around earth in .13 seconds.



Also give me the official power levels throughout dbz and I can calculate how fast they are."


Also in the anime you can see that it takes him one hell of a long time to lock onto a key signature to IT (hell of a long time as in longer than 1 second)


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

don't refer to anime please, they just wanna show the viewers what he's doin, they're not gonna do everything in super fast motion to make you say wow, thats DC's job when they throw numbers in comics.

for those of u who know nothing about nightcrawler, i said he would be a good match for flash because when he teleports he jumps into a dimension in which know one can see him, but he sees everything, even speedsters as fast as the Flash.  he wouldn't be credible for goku, cause goku can sense people in from the afterworld so it wouldn't be hard for him.

LOL

calculate how fast they are now, who the hell made you the Lord of DBZ.  i thought Toriyama made that show.

now go ahead and go search for nightcrawler information, cause yall obviously know nothing about him, and not that wikipedia shit, cause they leave out a lot on those types of charcters.

and i also see no one responded to the pic or the summary of the pic, must be to painful for yall to see, to crush your Flash is the greatest hopes.


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## EvilMoogle (Dec 9, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> for those of u who know nothing about nightcrawler, i said he would be a good match for flash because when he teleports he jumps into a dimension in which know one can see him, but he sees everything, even speedsters as fast as the Flash.  he wouldn't be credible for goku, cause goku can sense people in from the afterworld so it wouldn't be hard for him.



When Nightcrawler teleports he is indeed stepping through another dimension.  But last I heard it was still an "unknown" dimension and he has very little or no knowledge of it.

He certainly can't see anything and everything from within that dimension, as if he could, he wouldn't have to have been to a place before he teleports to it.

But even if we assume he _could_ see the Flash zipping around, it still wouldn't do him any good as he can't move quickly enough to do anything about it.

I'd almost say Nightcrawler vs. Goku might be a better matchup as if Nightcrawler gets a hand on Goku (slim but possible) he could teleport them both into a wall and manage a tie.

All of this is off topic anyway.  The fact is pretty simple, Goku can be hurt by physical attacks (I remember a scene after Goku and Gohan trained where Krillan thought "wow, they must be invincible now, I'll toss a rock at them and it'll shatter on their energy auras!" and it hurt Goku.  Sure not much but he felt it and didn't like it).  Since he will take at least a little damage from a physical attack, and he cannot hit the Flash eventually he'll go down to sheer quantity of hits (or eventually he'll run out of energy and revert from SSJ17 to normal Goku).

Goku might be a powerhouse in his own world, but DC sets the bar higher.  Superman, MM, The Flash, Green Lantern all crush Goku without it even being a fight.  If WW is really stronger than The Flash, she does too.

Just like on the Marvel side of things SS, Thantos, Adam Warlock, sufficiently strong incarnations of the Hulk all beat him without even realizing that it's a serious fight.

I really like Spider-man, but I'm aware that Spider-man can't fight the Flash (or at least he can't this month...) any more than he could fight Goku or Dark Schnieder.  Spider-man fights villians who threaten cities.  Goku fights planet-busters.  The Flash fights villians who threaten the entire Universe, this is the Majors.

/End Rant.


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## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

^ actually the elf found out, his dad is a satan mutant. And the dimension he passes through its his father's dimension. I have the comic.


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## Luckey (Dec 9, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> don't refer to anime please, they just wanna show the viewers what he's doin, they're not gonna do everything in super fast motion to make you say wow, thats DC's job when they throw numbers in comics.
> 
> for those of u who know nothing about nightcrawler, i said he would be a good match for flash because when he teleports he jumps into a dimension in which know one can see him, but he sees everything, even speedsters as fast as the Flash.  he wouldn't be credible for goku, cause goku can sense people in from the afterworld so it wouldn't be hard for him.
> 
> ...



i cant see the pic I get this error


*Warning*:  eregi(): REG_EMPTY in */home/image/www/my.php* on line *154*


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## Viciousness (Dec 9, 2005)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> All of this is off topic anyway.  The fact is pretty simple, Goku can be hurt by physical attacks (I remember a scene after Goku and Gohan trained where Krillan thought "wow, they must be invincible now, I'll toss a rock at them and it'll shatter on their energy auras!" and it hurt Goku.  Sure not much but he felt it and didn't like it).  Since he will take at least a little damage from a physical attack, and he cannot hit the Flash eventually he'll go down to sheer quantity of hits (or eventually he'll run out of energy and revert from SSJ17 to
> normal Goku).


Honestly, was this scene in the manga? If not why are you bringing it up.



> Goku might be a powerhouse in his own world, but DC sets the bar higher.  Superman, MM, The Flash, Green Lantern all crush Goku without it even being a fight.  If WW is really stronger than The Flash, she does too.


 just about every site I've looked up on WW shows she moves at about mach 3-10 max. The slowest you could theorize Goku moving is something substantially above 230 times the speed of sound, Especially after Base Gotenks feat. But the rest of this belongs in another debate.



> Just like on the Marvel side of things SS, Thantos, Adam Warlock, sufficiently strong incarnations of the Hulk all beat him without even realizing that it's a serious fight.
> 
> I really like Spider-man, but I'm aware that Spider-man can't fight the Flash (or at least he can't this month...) any more than he could fight Goku or Dark Schnieder.  Spider-man fights villians who threaten cities.  Goku fights planet-busters.  The Flash fights villians who threaten the entire Universe, this is the Majors.



And youre saying Buu didnt threaten the Universe? Flash fights villains with boomerangs and has a hard time, he cant fly, if the planet is destroyed his screwed, but in theory he is the most powerful character of all time with his infinite mass punch, which is bullshit since no writer from DC is going to put him above Superman Prime. Also since when does the Hulk move fast enough to keep up with a DBZ character?


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

me too i'm terribly sorry luckey, go to the WW vs Goku thread
its among bullets fifty images, sorry bout that.

u can't really say DC sets the bar so high, well u probably can because of all the numbers and the writers sitting around saying how fast they're going at all times.  while in DBZ the guys are just fighting.

DC has made excuses for a lot of people not losing in their own world.  Put them in a world where its all about powers and skill and goku would win.

DC excuses:
Flash: The Speed Force
Superman: The Source which is the only reason Darkseid hasn't killed him with the Omega Beams
GL: somehow and someway the ring adapted to yellow, and it takes a more powerful psychic to attack his mind
MM:  no excuses, but in his strongest form he lost to Plastic Man

Thank you for info Korican, and to add to that Nightcrawler has even gotten better at his teleportion, and he was able to see Quicksilver quite well ( i know flash is leaps and bounds, but this just shows he's pretty adept at speedsters).

now, u say Goku doesn't fight people who are a threat to the universe yet Buu was a threat and Cell was a threat (he actually was, but he had a urge just to fight people).

now u talkin bout the DBZ universe, tell me how the hell will Superman beat Buu and Buu is a magical being.  Superman weakness is magic.


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## EvilMoogle (Dec 9, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> just about every site I've looked up on WW shows she moves at about mach 3-10 max. The slowest you could theorize Goku moving is something substantially above 230 times the speed of sound, Especially after Base Gotenks feat. But the rest of this belongs in another debate.


Honestly I have no idea about WW, this was based on the quote from Dragon magazine above, but again, it doesn't matter in this debate (this is why I've been largely quiet in the WW vs. Goku thread).




			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> And youre saying Buu didnt threaten the Universe? Flash fights villains with boomerangs and has a hard time, he cant fly, if the planet is destroyed his screwed, but in theory he is the most powerful character of all time with his infinite mass punch, which is bullshit since no writer from DC is going to put him above Superman Prime. Also since when does the Hulk move fast enough to keep up with a DBZ character?


Well Buu only attacked one planet at a time as I recall so I'd really call him an exceptional planet-killer.  But regardless, it doesn't matter as Goku didn't exactly manage to beat Buu did he?

Flash has ran to other planets before, he can "fly" after a fashion.  Not as well as Goku can but the sheer difference in speed probably makes up for this.

Hulk doesn't move fast, this is correct, however he's been able to fight people faster than Goku before so he must be able to precieve fast.  The Hulk is less certain than the others, which is why I specified "some incarnations of the Hulk."  Some incarnations of the Hulk can take on Superman.

Really I don't get it, who drew the magical line in the sand and said that DBZ power is the highest level of power a comic is allowed before it's "broken"?  I like Ranma 1/2, who'd get his butt whupped by Goku, shouldn't I be whining that Goku's broken and say he should be stripped of his flight and Ki projection?

I don't follow the Flash religiously because I don't like that power level of characters, but that doesn't devalue it's existance (I feel the same way about DBZ and I'm nervious that Bleach and Naruto both might go this way soon).


//Edit:


> now, u say Goku doesn't fight people who are a threat to the universe yet Buu was a threat and Cell was a threat (he actually was, but he had a urge just to fight people).



I should clarify, when I say "threat to the universe" I don't mean a character that eventually will destroy enough populated planets to cause a threat to the universe (which even Freeza would qualify for), I mean someone that if allowed to complete their plan/scheme can make the entire universe cease to exist/subordinante to him/etc...

Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet, The Goddess, etc.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

ok, in actuallity they stopped doin schemes in DBZ like searching for Dragonballs for power and THE ABILITY TO DESTROY THE UNIVERSE AT WILL because during the Frieza saga in kinda took away from the excitement and action.  DBZ wants to focus on action, Buu actually could've destroyed the universe, he was destroying planets for fun with blasts that didn't too much energy.  

all the saiyans left, and the villains could destroy planets with a finger shot so lets not go to what they're true power could do if they decided they wanted to destroy something.

this is a fight, not a plan/scheme, Goku would take down Flash, this shouldn't have gone this long


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## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> DBZ wants to focus on action, Buu actually could've destroyed the universe, he was destroying planets for fun with blasts that didn't too much energy.


when did buu do this? I know he blew up the earth, but what other planets? I have all the manga and this never happend.


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## Viciousness (Dec 9, 2005)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> Well Buu only attacked one planet at a time as I recall so I'd really call him an exceptional planet-killer.  But regardless, it doesn't matter as Goku didn't exactly manage to beat Buu did he?



He destoyed planets in a matter of seconds. And Cell said he was going to obliterate the solar system before So if Buu wanted to aim at the Sun and cause a supernova theres nothing saying he couldnt. In fact some images in the background of stray blasts have definately resembled far off supernova's.
And Yes Goku did beat him, and by the end of the series would definately have beaten him on his own in a rematch.




> Flash has ran to other planets before, he can "fly" after a fashion.  Not as well as Goku can but the sheer difference in speed probably makes up for this.


With what? Green Lanters road like was made for him and Superman in their footrace? If Goku blows up the planet whats flash going to use to run off of? The space around his freezing feet?



> Hulk doesn't move fast, this is correct, however he's been able to fight people faster than Goku before so he must be able to precieve fast.  The Hulk is less certain than the others, which is why I specified "some incarnations of the Hulk."  Some incarnations of the Hulk can take on Superman.


 Who'd Hulk fight Faster than Goku in non cross over issues that were done by voting and complete bullshit to begin with as they tone down and tone up certain characters to correspond with the votes?



> Really I don't get it, who drew the magical line in the sand and said that DBZ power is the highest level of power a comic is allowed before it's "broken"?  I like Ranma 1/2, who'd get his butt whupped by Goku, shouldn't I be whining that Goku's broken and say he should be stripped of his flight and Ki projection?



No ones saying flash is broken because you can make the argument that hes better than Goku. Its because that same argument that makes him better than Goku also makes him better than anyone in his own universe when he wasnt intended to be, that makes him broken and its not even a legitimate argument. 

People are saying Flash is going to win using a punch with an Infinite amount of mass, and taking his statement to a ludicrous level. If flash can create this infinite punch with his limitless speed as some have said then he could take out anyone in the DC universe if he so chooses. But no writer is going to agree to that.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

the origin of buu, when the kais talked about it.  they had to stop him cause he was a crazy menace to the universe.  he destroyed galaxies and 5 kais.

and don't jump on me cause its filler, i know movies are filler.  but they do not overpower people or the parameters of DBZ.  Broly was actually destroying entire galaxies and wasn't using his strongest blasts as well.  its filler but DBZ characters posess this type of power.  if they wanted to they could destroy the universe in comics.  i don't wanna say universe in DBZ terms becasue they don't follow the multi-verse concept, DBZ universe is basically infinite and separated into galaxies.


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## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> People are saying Flash is going to win using a punch with an Infinite amount of mass, and taking his statement to a ludicrous level. If flash can create this infinite punch with his limitless speed as some have said then he could take out anyone in the DC universe if he so chooses. But no writer is going to agree to that.


it's not limitless speed, but whatever. 

Flash can only do this if he can go light speed. Prevent flash from going light speed and he can't do jack to you. That's how dc writers have been having villains fight the flash. It isn't always whose the buffest who wins like in dbz. 

There are other people in dc and marvel that can't be hurt by physical hits. Just because everyone in dbz can be punched doesn't mean that other beings are going to be hurt by the flash and the flash can't do crap to. I can list about a dozen more characters in dc that even if the flash tries an infinite mass punch to it won't work. It does work with characters that can't stop the flash.


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## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> the origin of buu, when the kais talked about it.  they had to stop him cause he was a crazy menace to the universe.  he destroyed galaxies and 5 kais.
> 
> and don't jump on me cause its filler, i know movies are filler.  but they do not overpower people or the parameters of DBZ.  Broly was actually destroying entire galaxies and wasn't using his strongest blasts as well.  its filler but DBZ characters posess this type of power.  if they wanted to they could destroy the universe in comics.  i don't wanna say universe in DBZ terms becasue they don't follow the multi-verse concept, DBZ universe is basically infinite and separated into galaxies.


I'm still confused. They had the origin of buu in a movie? or did they talk about it in the manga. I know they talked about the origin of buu in the manga when he changed back to kid buu and the 5 kais but that was it, nothing about destroying galaxies and what not.


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## Gunners (Dec 9, 2005)

Well my opinion is gokou would win, due to the fact that in terms of fighting he is smart, he could time where the falsh will run and send i kamehameha in the direction the flash comes.

Plus gokou himself is pretty fast not as fast as the flash but fast, i think gokou should move at lightspeed but due to miss calculations moves slower.

But flash is faster, gokou is a powerhouse and fast.


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## Viciousness (Dec 9, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> There are other people in dc and marvel that can't be hurt by physical hits. Just because everyone in dbz can be punched doesn't mean that other beings are going to be hurt by the flash and the flash can't do crap to. I can list about a dozen more characters in dc that even if the flash tries an infinite mass punch to it won't work. It does work with characters that can't stop the flash.



Then why arent these characters listed as the strongest whenever DC tier lists are given? Its almost always superman prime. But I suppose based on these infinite mass arguments and the fact that he's faster than Superman , who can be physically hit, then youre saying Flash is technically above Superman Prime based on a theory that hes never used to its full potential. Because his physical punch holds infinite power then Flash >>(to the infinite power)>> Superman Prime is what this theoretical argument is saying. As I said before do you really think theres a writer in DC that thinks that? Whose face did Flash punch a hole through with this infinite mass?
If most people are stopping him from using it thanks to some different tricks and its completely unreliable, chances are even if the theory's true, the energy of a ki field would give it problems too.


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## Bullet (Dec 9, 2005)

gunners said:
			
		

> Well my opinion is gokou would win, due to the fact that in terms of fighting he is smart, he could time where the falsh will run and send i kamehameha in the direction the flash comes.
> 
> Plus gokou himself is pretty fast not as fast as the flash but fast, i think gokou should move at lightspeed but due to miss calculations moves slower.
> 
> But flash is faster, gokou is a powerhouse and fast.




You forget that Flash could take his speed and that Goku isn't light speed. Flash got abilities that could cripple Goku for the rest of the fight. Flash isn't weak, he could fight with some of the top tier heros and win, he got the powers and ability to do it too.


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## Bullet (Dec 9, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> give credit to bullet for this image, goku could easily pull this feat.  i can't see it on my computer anymore, but it is a pic of WW adapting to Flash's speed blindfolded.



WW (a woman that proves to be able to keep up Jesse too) was adapting to a Flash that was holding back, in this match, he doesn't have to worry about that. So he still wins.


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## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Then why arent these characters listed as the strongest whenever DC tier lists are given? Its almost always superman prime. But I suppose based on these infinite mass arguments and the fact that he's faster than Superman , who can be physically hit, then youre saying Flash is technically above Superman Prime based on a theory that hes never used to its full potential. Because his physical punch holds infinite power then Flash >>(to the infinite power)>> Superman Prime is what this theoretical argument is saying. As I said before do you really think theres a writer in DC that thinks that? Whose face did Flash punch a hole through with this infinite mass?
> If most people are stopping him from using it thanks to some different tricks and its completely unreliable, chances are even if the theory's true, the energy of a ki field would give it problems too.



Superman prime is way past flash even in speed, so flash won't even be able to touch him with an i.m.p. Regular superman is 99% light speed, and superman prime is even beyond what flash can do in speed.
One of the people he gives powers too superman 1 million can punch through time, and is faster than flash. These powers don't even make sense, and it doesn't matter it's a comic.
That's already two people that are beyond flash, if you want me to keep listing them i'll be happy to.

You keep saying infinite power. I don't know how people are interpreting the scans that are up, but relax . When I say infinite mass punch i'm referring to what they use in the comic, not "theoretically", that's the move he does. It's like saying the kamehameha wave, it's not actually referring to a hawaiian king. The comics are writing these moves i.e. DC is writing this. If what they have flash do contradicts some standings of power tiers, so what? We already know DC is flip flopping powers and character abilities, it's nothing knew, and your getting worked up over some comic book hero, just take it as is, not everything has to make sense, especially when discussing things that someone else made up.

Also since you don't read flash or other dc comics.The "tricks" they use are usually something more than just powering up with ki. For example. Captain Cold can create "cold" barrier around him, (yes it sounds stupid). So it stops all movement of molecules from moving. Or they hold flash in a stasis field so that he can't vibrate his molecules to get out and he's floating so he can't run. 
These aren't just tricks, they try to put at least,  like marvel comics,some nonsensical science in it.


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## Viciousness (Dec 9, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> Superman prime is way past flash even in speed, so flash won't even be able to touch him with an i.m.p. Regular superman is 99% light speed, and superman prime is even beyond what flash can do in speed.
> One of the people he gives powers too superman 1 million can punch through time, and is faster than flash. These powers don't even make sense, and it doesn't matter it's a comic.
> That's already two people that are beyond flash, if you want me to keep listing them i'll be happy to.



people have already made the argument post crisis Superman is 10x the speed of light (of course in a dbz battle where characters are bsed to their fullest extent), since he flew to a distant planet in 4 minutes once, and the distance over time they calculated his speed to that point. And considering Flash Beat him in a race and Prime can only be but so much faster than 10x light.



> You keep saying infinite power. I don't know how people are interpreting the scans that are up, but relax . When I say infinite mass punch i'm referring to what they use in the comic, not "theoretically", that's the move he does. It's like saying the kamehameha wave, it's not actually referring to a hawaiian king. The comics are writing these moves i.e. DC is writing this. If what they have flash do contradicts some standings of power tiers, so what? We already know DC is flip flopping powers and character abilities, it's nothing knew, and your getting worked up over some comic book hero, just take it as is, not everything has to make sense, especially when discussing things that someone else made up.



Yeah I was just pointing out the argument of several pro flash people has been that Flash's punching power is infinite so Goku cant survive it automatically since infinite > 9999999^99999 or something along those lines. I know DC writers believe there is some limit to what he is capable of.



> Also since you don't read flash or other dc comics.The "tricks" they use are usually something more than just powering up with ki. For example. Captain Cold can create "cold" barrier around him, (yes it sounds stupid). So it stops all movement of molecules from moving. Or they hold flash in a stasis field so that he can't vibrate his molecules to get out and he's floating so he can't run.
> These aren't just tricks, they try to put at least,  like marvel comics,some nonsensical science in it.



Ive read DC before and alot of the Superman ones online. But yeah I dont read Flash much so I really wasnt aware of how they got around his power so thanks for the info.


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## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> people have already made the argument post crisis Superman is 10x the speed of light (of course in a dbz battle where characters are bsed to their fullest extent), since he flew to a distant planet in 4 minutes once, and the distance over time they calculated his speed to that point. And considering Flash Beat him in a race and Prime can only be but so much faster than 10x light.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When superman went to one of saturn's moons, if you did some calculation it would come out to something like 10-14x the speed of light. But then later they said he can only travel 99% the speed of light. 
Then in another flash comic flash saved some half million people by going, if you calculate the numbers comes out to be, 1 trillion times the speed of light. Yet in that same page it said he was going near speed of light -_-. This is exactly what you said about making up numbers that just ridiculously break the caps of characters they put on. Although this is one of the things i enjoy about reading these comics, they just don't make sense even for that comic lol.
That's why you just have to let it go sometimes, it's too much trying to put stuff together in dc and that's why people get very distorted versions of characters, and ignore things like fighting ability in matches.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

told u, there would be an excuse for why WW is adapting to Flash.  the reason DY kept bringin up Flash and Superman Prime is because it has been said in this thread that Flash is better than him, and that kinda threw him a bit, it threw me a lot cause the flash overration (i made it up) is exceeding far above expectations.  this flash stilling goku's energy is not gonna happen, because like i said before, DBZ characters hide energy, its not hide from power readers, its hiding their actual energy.

Goku could fake it when he figures out what flash is doing, because his martial arts teaches him to control external and internal parts of his body, goku is in the most control of his body than many people.  after the fake goku would own him, and goku is not to stupid to do that.

bullet have u proved goku isn't light speed?


----------



## Shiron (Dec 9, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> bullet have u proved goku isn't light speed?


Where's the proof that Goku can travel at the speed of light? Did I miss something? The IT isn't Goku's actual speed; it's a teleportation technique, if that's what you're referring to. Now while the IT may allow Goku to go from Point A to Point B instantly (which very well may be above the speed of light at some points), it still doesn't change the fact that the IT is a linear teleportation technique, is not Goku's actual speed (Goku can't fly/run as fast as he can move using IT), and the fact that Goku takes at least .1 of a second to use it.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 9, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> tthe reason DY kept bringin up Flash and Superman Prime is because it has been said in this thread that Flash is better than him, and that kinda threw him a bit, it threw me a lot cause the flash overration (i made it up) is exceeding far above expectations.



Ya, Flash is no where near Superman prime. Heck, Flash would lose to the superman from the 853rd century who's powers come from Superman prime lol.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> this flash stilling goku's energy is not gonna happen, because like i said before, DBZ characters hide energy, its not hide from power readers, its hiding their actual energy.



Flash steals kinetic energy, not Ki type energy. I dont think you can hide kinetic energy...


----------



## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

kinetic energy is a result of speed or energy of motion, someone has to be moving for flash to steal that.  he doesn't steal potential energy.

and considering goku uses ki energy for just about everything, he in fact would not be using much kinetic energy.


----------



## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> kinetic energy is a result of speed or energy of motion, someone has to be moving for flash to steal that.  he doesn't steal potential energy.
> 
> and considering goku uses ki energy for just about everything, he in fact would not be using much kinetic energy.


So in order for flash not to steal kinetic energy from goku, goku can not move at all. Because once goku transfers his ki energy into a movement for say a punch, that punch now has kinetic energy, it's going a certain velocity, hence flash can steal the punches speed. The only thing he would be able to do is fire ki blasts. ......This is one big circle we are going here.


----------



## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

well i wasn't saying that goku would turn his ki into kinetic energy, my thing is once goku gets in the air flash is pretty much disadvantage.  and he flies using ki.  i really don't think goku has to worry bout flash deciding to steal energy that day.

but this is one big circle.  u have a point there.


----------



## Hiruma (Dec 9, 2005)

Our point is Goku would be dead before he can get in the air.


----------



## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

that point had been dismissed a long time ago.  it was just that ridiculous.


----------



## Deleted member 15401 (Dec 9, 2005)

flash vs hulk should be fun then?


----------



## unknowndanex (Dec 10, 2005)

don't do it, that's another fight that would go on for 20 pages 

well i guess u should do it, even though i hate this overration(my new word) of flash, he has sparked some good debates


----------



## Deleted member 15401 (Dec 10, 2005)

okok i wont do hulk vs flash

hulk vs flash vs juggernaught vs superman

oh yeah. hulk is 'invincible' due to his regeneration, juggernaught is 'unstoppable', HOWEVER, flash seems to be able to punch infinite strength.. which brings the question of *what happens when an unstoppable force meets an unmoveable object?*

oh yeah i just added superman cos he can fly, and the other 3 cant ;D


----------



## Zoro - inactive (Dec 17, 2005)

Itachi Amaterasu said:
			
		

> Gokou would obliterate The Flash.


This is so true.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 17, 2005)

Zoro said:
			
		

> This is so true.


lol couldnt help but laugh.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 17, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> well i wasn't saying that goku would turn his ki into kinetic energy, my thing is once goku gets in the air flash is pretty much disadvantage.  and he flies using ki.  i really don't think goku has to worry bout flash deciding to steal energy that day.
> 
> but this is one big circle.  u have a point there.


ANY MOTION is kinetic energy.  Please, dear lord, look into physics.


----------



## vagnard (Dec 17, 2005)

If the fight starts with Goku flying then he can just shoot a KameHame against the Earth and then he just need to teleport to Namek, Oa or another planet with living beings (depending the universe) before the blast destroy the Earth.

Flash has no way to know that the Kame Hame can destroy the Earth...so he will not travel to the past or something like that.


----------



## ~ Masamune ~ (Dec 17, 2005)

Goku wins of course


----------



## Luckey (Dec 17, 2005)

vagnard said:
			
		

> If the fight starts with Goku flying then he can just shoot a KameHame against the Earth and then he just need to teleport to Namek, Oa or another planet with living beings (depending the universe) before the blast destroy the Earth.
> 
> Flash has no way to know that the Kame Hame can destroy the Earth...so he will not travel to the past or something like that.


Flash will steal Goku's speed so he cant move, then he'll vibrate his hand through his face.  This is of course if Flash doesn't just run up to him before Goku even begins to move.  Gotenks travelled the Earth 10 times in 10 minutes.  So it takes Base-form Gotenks 60 seconds to travel Earth one time.  Speed of light travels around Earth 10 times in 1.3 seconds.  Flash is over 300x faster than speed of light.  Flash can kill Goku before he even takes off flying.


One more thing, FLASH CAN FLY.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 18, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> Flash will steal Goku's speed so he cant move, then he'll vibrate his hand through his face.  This is of course if Flash doesn't just run up to him before Goku even begins to move.  Gotenks travelled the Earth 10 times in 10 minutes.  So it takes Base-form Gotenks 60 seconds to travel Earth one time.  Speed of light travels around Earth 10 times in 1.3 seconds.  Flash is over 300x faster than speed of light.  Flash can kill Goku before he even takes off flying.
> 
> 
> One more thing, FLASH CAN FLY.



I think that Gotenks thing is little off and Flash can't fly, but he's able to run in the air for a while.


----------



## Hiruma (Dec 18, 2005)

Marvel says he can fly by spinning like a helicopter.


----------



## vagnard (Dec 18, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> Flash will steal Goku's speed so he cant move, then he'll vibrate his hand through his face.  This is of course if Flash doesn't just run up to him before Goku even begins to move.  Gotenks travelled the Earth 10 times in 10 minutes.  So it takes Base-form Gotenks 60 seconds to travel Earth one time.  Speed of light travels around Earth 10 times in 1.3 seconds.  Flash is over 300x faster than speed of light.  Flash can kill Goku before he even takes off flying.
> 
> 
> One more thing, FLASH CAN FLY.



Last time I checked Flash couldn't fly. And please read my post....I said if Goku  START in the air at the beginning of the fight. Flash hasn't any means to reach him. It doesn't matter if Flash can run 40000 times around the earth before Goku can blink if Goku still is out of his reach and can blow the planet. 

Infinite mass punch doesn't have infinite mass really. It's only a very strong punch....a guy with enough power to damage a class 100 fighter. If guys like Captain Boomerang or Deathstroke can react before Flash kick their asses I'm sure that Goku can do better.


----------



## COWBOYX (Dec 18, 2005)

goku looses if he starts on the ground.Flash is too fast. but he wins if he starts somewhere extremly far away or in the air.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 18, 2005)

vagnard said:
			
		

> Last time I checked Flash couldn't fly. And please read my post....I said if Goku  START in the air at the beginning of the fight. Flash hasn't any means to reach him. It doesn't matter if Flash can run 40000 times around the earth before Goku can blink if Goku still is out of his reach and can blow the planet.



Flash has ways to effectively attack people in the air.


*Spoiler*: _one such way_ 









Flash can turn pretty much anything into a projectile with as much strikeing force as a mini nuke if he so desired


----------



## Luckey (Dec 18, 2005)

Flash can move each of his molecules at any speed he wants due to the speedforce.  He doesnt need to move just by running.  He can add kinetic energy to his body and fly.  He's done this a couple times.

Also infinite mass punch CAN indeed destroy anything, it's just that he hasn't used it's full potential, though even that would be impossible due to the shear destructivness of his capabilities.  He is capable of moving anything within his speed force barrier at any speed.  He can "telekinetically" lift up rocks and launch them at whatever speed he wants at goku, he can give them infinite mass without them being crushed (due to the speedforce)  He can steal speed from anything all over the universe as depicted when he stole all of the human's speed when they ran on Earth all at once.  When goku is in the air, he can force him to stop, then launch millions upon millions of rocks with a mass of over 100000000000^999999

He can also do the true infinite mass, he says infinite mass because of its potential as in it can be 1000000000^99 or 100000000000^99999999.  Do you understand now?



ALSO, STOP TALKING ABOUT Cap boom and deathstroke.  Those were done by different writers.  It's already been stated that we are using the strongest and best form of Flash vs the Strongest and best form of Goku.  which of course means that the form that had trouble fighting cap boom is different.  By form i mean different writers depict Flash in different ways.


----------



## vagnard (Dec 18, 2005)

So....Flash has Telescopic vision too like Superman to hit someone that is flying over the clouds?...and super speed don't mean super accuracy


----------



## Bullet (Dec 18, 2005)

vagnard said:
			
		

> So....Flash has Telescopic vision too like Superman to hit someone that is flying over the clouds?...and super speed don't mean super accuracy



Who said he had telescopic vision?


----------



## vagnard (Dec 18, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Who said he had telescopic vision?



He would need it to hit a target flying above the clouds


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 18, 2005)

vagnard said:
			
		

> He would need it to hit a target flying above the clouds



Whats the point of having a fight where one of the contestants starts tens of thousands of feet away from the other?

Its semi-reasonable to say that Goku might start the fight in the air, but so far in the air he couldnt even see his opponent? Whats the point in that?


----------



## ichinii30 (Dec 18, 2005)

goku wins- faster than flash, blows up mountains


----------



## Bullet (Dec 18, 2005)

ichinii30 said:
			
		

> goku wins- faster than flash, blows up mountains



Guess you didn't take the time to look at the thread huh? Goku gets  by Flash.


----------



## Luckey (Dec 18, 2005)

ichinii30 said:
			
		

> goku wins- faster than flash, blows up mountains


 Flash is obviously faster and can deal mega blows with pebbles on the ground since he can give them a mass of 99999999999^999 with his speedforce and throw them at 1000000000000000^9999 m/s.  That's stronger than any punch, especially due to the size of a pebble, it would probably pierce goku considering the size of it.  And even if he misses, he'll be throwing trillions upon trillions all at once, since he can extend his speedforce around him and throw projectiles--each pebble out of the trillion having a mass of 10000000000^99999999 kg and speed of 100000000000000000^9999999 m/s

Since each pebble has such a small size, there will be a LOT more force in the cm^2 radius.
EXAMPLE:  Which would you rather get thrown at you,  a pole with a blunt end, or a pole with a pointed end?  The pointed end can pierce since the same force is being applied to a much smaller radius.  If a small object with 100000000000000000^99999 mass travelled at 10000000000000000000^99999999999 m/s and hit something, the person will get split in half by such a small thing going at such a fast pace going through the person's torso.

*Since the objects are under the speedforce aura, they will not be crushed due to their massive mass and speed.*


----------



## uncanny_sama (Dec 19, 2005)

the flash suxx0rz

plus goku wins by default


----------



## Bullet (Dec 19, 2005)

uncanny_sama said:
			
		

> the flash suxx0rz
> 
> plus goku wins by default



And how is that please?


----------



## Luckey (Dec 21, 2005)

Do it's decided?  Goku < Flash


----------



## Gunners (Dec 21, 2005)

Hmm, if flash threw a pepple at gokou, would it actually damage him, i mean it might not be strong enough, somebody please explain?

And another thing, doesnt mass mean the amount of stuff inside, so throwing it at a certain speed shouldnt change it, i thought i would have changed the newtons/force of the object?


----------



## ISHIDA_AKIRA (Dec 21, 2005)

Momentum= Velocity (Flash has alot of this) x Mass 

Flash FTW


----------



## Luckey (Dec 21, 2005)

gunners said:
			
		

> Hmm, if flash threw a pepple at gokou, would it actually damage him, i mean it might not be strong enough, somebody please explain?
> 
> And another thing, doesnt mass mean the amount of stuff inside, so throwing it at a certain speed shouldnt change it, i thought i would have changed the newtons/force of the object?


When an object approaches lightspeed, its mass increases as well.  If Flash throws Trillions upon trillions of pebbles with a mass of over 100000^99999 at a speed slightly lower or even higher than lightspeed, goku would die.  read my last post for details.  The speedforce prevents the pebbles from imploding on their weightgain.


----------



## Nybarius (Dec 21, 2005)

A lesser known fact about objects approaching light-speed is that they would generate a lot of static electricity.  This has even been confirmed in a Flash comic (will post a scan if you really want to see), when somebody notices there is a ton of lint sticking to Flash's uniform.  I think that Goku would win, since if Flash tried to evade him, Goku's hair would be attracted to the Flash, thus powering up his own not inconsiderable speed.  Then the stronger Goku could ram into him, or do some sort of ridiculous energy move.

A few further words about speed.  Like most psychophysical phenomena, the perception of motion is a relative affair.  Thus, if somebody who is going 20 MPH appears to be going twice as fast as somebody going 10MPH, it would take a speed of 40MPH to double this perceptual speed once more.  Thus, there isn't that big of a difference between "close to light speed" and "light speed," in terms of reaction time and fighting; only if you're going, say, DOUBLE light speed *koff Dark Schneider koff *(or 50x light speed, for that matter) would it be a deciding factor in a fight.

In truth I just wanted to digress, what I really think is that Flash would win if he was serious about killing Goku right from the git-go.  One of the great appeals of a "speed-demon" is one has no time to power up...


----------



## acritarch (Dec 21, 2005)

Luckey said:
			
		

> When an object approaches lightspeed, its mass increases as well.  If Flash throws Trillions upon trillions of pebbles with a mass of over 100000^99999 at a speed slightly lower or even higher than lightspeed, goku would die.  read my last post for details.  The speedforce prevents the pebbles from imploding on their weightgain.



You really don't know much about special relativity do you? Objects will gain mass at high velocities, but they won't implode or anything. The speedforce doesn't have to protect anything except the Flash because the human body would get destroyed going that fast especially in an atmosphere.


----------



## Spacey (Dec 21, 2005)

The flash is a stupid idiot anyhow.. All you comic book nerds could you answer this thread pleasseee, normally I wouldn't have asked but it's gone daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyys and no reply.

Anyhow thanks in advance love y'all 


CHEERS


----------



## Luckey (Oct 16, 2006)

braindx said:


> You really don't know much about special relativity do you? Objects will gain mass at high velocities, but they won't implode or anything. The speedforce doesn't have to protect anything except the Flash because the human body would get destroyed going that fast especially in an atmosphere.


What are you talking about?  Perhaps not implode, but they will certaintly be crushed upon their own weight. 

(sorry about the long wait for the reply, I just got back)


----------



## Gunners (Oct 16, 2006)

Lmao one year later.....

Welcome back anyway.


----------



## Luckey (Oct 16, 2006)

gunners said:


> Lmao one year later.....
> 
> Welcome back anyway.


heh yeah it's been a while.


----------



## v_joshi12 (Oct 16, 2006)

Luckey said:


> [*]Hurl small projectiles at hypersonic velocities.



I'm sorry but all the Flash would have to do is throw a rock at Goku and he'd be dead. I'm a true Goku fanatic but I know a rape when I see one.


----------



## Apocalypes (Oct 20, 2006)

Well even in Dragonball As a kid Goku can move so fast that he leaves like 3 after images. i think that is already like faster then light because He moves so fast that when the light hits him and bounces back at the oponents eyes hes already somewhere else. Goku in the end of teh anime if they actually showed him moving at his actual speed then who fight would end in like a few second and that would be boring. the flash is way overated in this thread. Goku takes this


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## Comic Book Guy (Oct 20, 2006)

> Well even in Dragonball As a kid Goku can move so fast that he leaves like 3 after images. i think that is already like faster then light because He moves so fast that when the light hits him and bounces back at the oponents eyes hes already somewhere else. Goku in the end of teh anime if they actually showed him moving at his actual speed then who fight would end in like a few second and that would be boring. the flash is way overated in this thread. Goku takes this



3 after images?

Big deal.

Flash can move so fast, he can make it appear that there are two _tangible_ people in the room -- himself as the Flash and Wally West. Constantly changing costume. In addition, he comments that he can live two separate lives in doing so.


----------



## Apocalypes (Oct 20, 2006)

That was as a kid though. goku which is now like a billion times stronger and faster.


----------



## exmorte (Oct 20, 2006)

Its a fact kiddo's Flash Speed >>>>> Goku's speed.

Meh and b/c of the sheer speed of flash, he has the potintial to punch goku several times (while at peak velocity) with enough force to shatter every little bit of goku's body.

Edit: To Apocalypes, Goku has never shown speed faster than leaving a couple of afterimage's, or not being visible (inst trans =/= speed it is teleportation) Goku has never shown being anywhere near capable of approaching the velocity of the flash.

Double edit: 


			
				Apocalypes said:
			
		

> i think that is already like faster then light because He moves so fast that when the light hits him and bounces back at the oponents eyes hes already somewhere else


 Okay, as to that... I hope you know that for the opponent to see, the light must register, then the eyes send signal to brain, then brain produces image. So it is actually a long proccess (when put in terms of such high speed)


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 20, 2006)

> That was as a kid though. goku which is now like a billion times stronger and faster.



Not really. For all his strength, he struggled with the 40 tons in training. Already, that's far from billions.


----------



## Kazuma the Shell Bullet (Oct 26, 2006)

The Flash would end it in under a second. he could run up and vibrate his molecules to melt Goku to a puddle. He can do this in less than a second. Besides, never have the DBZ characters shown anything close to lightspeed


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

Kazuma the Shell Bullet said:


> The Flash would end it in under a second. he could run up and vibrate his molecules to melt Goku to a puddle. He can do this in less than a second. Besides, never have the DBZ characters shown anything close to lightspeed


They cant go the speed of light huh? well I was doing let's say just a little bit of thinking and here's my calculation's.
Goku was travelling at Mach 17 on the snakeway. 

(from other forums) 
"""" 
1,000,000 kilometer = 621,371 miles. 20 kilometer/hour = 12.427 423 845 mile/hour. Going at 12.5 miles an hour would not equal 2 days. It would be 2071 days. For it take 2 days he would have had to be going 13,000 mile/hour (mph) = 20,921.472 kilometer/hour. 

13,000 mile/hour (mph) = Mach 17?""" 


Now lets see, Goku was around powerlevel 8000 when he was going at mach 17. Now everybody here knows with training and every power upgrade speed always increases as well. 

Now if Goku was able to go mach17 on PL of 8000, Super Buu Gohan is said to have a powerlevel of 6,700,000,000. 

Now 6,700,000,000/8000=837500 
That means Super Buu Gohan was 837500 times more powerful than Base Goku that went on the snakeway. 

Mach17 = 12 940.5199 mph 
mach17*837500 = 10837685416.25mph 

Speed of Light = 670616629 mph.
But not only that but majin buu was beaten the crap out of by a regular vegetto who is even faster.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

goku flies and instantly KO's flash with a kienzen


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Dec 1, 2006)

Why do people keep on using Snake Way as a speed feat when he never traveled the entire thing? He was cutting corners by flying and leaping over many of the curves.

Seriously... 



> goku flies and instantly KO's flash with a kienzen


Yeah, because a slow-ass kienzen is going to tag someone who can phase through it or be on the other side of the planet before Goku could even release it.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

ShadowReplication1480 said:


> Why do people keep on using Snake Way as a speed feat when he never traveled the entire thing? He was cutting corners by flying and leaping over many of the curves.
> 
> Seriously...
> 
> ...



the same "slow ass kienzen" that managed to cut frieza's tail off then freiza proceeded to dodge like 10 straight. 

IT + Kienzen = flash in pieces 

get mad at it


----------



## BRANCHEAD33 (Dec 1, 2006)

i think barrey allen is better.

I mean isn't he faster than wally and bart?


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Dec 1, 2006)

> the same "slow ass kienzen" that managed to cut frieza's tail off then freiza proceeded to dodge like 10 straight.
> 
> IT + Kienzen = flash in pieces


Yeah, because Freiza is faster than Flash, right? Goku can IT all he wants, he still won't tag any of the Flashes(well, maybe Jay Garrick and even that's not certain) with slow-ass,"everybody can see it coming" kienzan.


----------



## Orion (Dec 1, 2006)

^^agreed,its all gonna depend on how much flash is outta character if this is both of them going for the kill goku's head and or whole body will be vibrated out of existance.


----------



## Kai (Dec 1, 2006)

This battle goes to the Flash.

Flash would just put Goku in a speedforce.
GG


----------



## Birkin (Dec 1, 2006)

Flash's speed is actually visible.
Goku's speed is in form of 'teleports'
Flash can only stay on the ground
Goku can fly.
Flash doesn't have any hidden power.
Goku can charge up energy bolts (Kamehameha/Spirit bomb)
Flash hits hard.
Goku hits harder.

Correct me if I'm wrong. 

So yes, Goku takes this rather easily.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 1, 2006)

> Flash's speed is actually visible.


No it isn't vicible to normal eyes.



> Flash doesn't have any hidden power.



Yes the Flash has a lot of hidden powers actually.

The other points I see as debatable somewhat. Regardless I think Goku would win this match up.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 1, 2006)

Infinite_Justice said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong.



Ok, I will 



Infinite_Justice said:


> Flash's speed is actually visible.
> Goku's speed is in form of 'teleports'



Flash's speed is anything but visible. He can run around the world before you can even perseve that he left his original spot  Furthermore Flash is faster then light so he can punch you before the photons even reach your eyes to tell you that he was there in the first place lol

Further more, Goku's IT is not "Speed", its teleportation which is something entirely different. 



Infinite_Justice said:


> Flash doesn't have any hidden power.
> Goku can charge up energy bolts (Kamehameha/Spirit bomb)



Define hidden powers. Flash, besides running fast can: Steal speed, give speed to other objects, make things explode by vibrating though them, become intangible, time travel, and more.

Yes, all these things are related to his speed. But then again all of Goku's powers are because of his Ki. 



Infinite_Justice said:


> Flash hits hard.
> Goku hits harder.



Has Goku ever punched someone into orbit or done anything equivalent to that before? Didn't think so


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

Infinite_Justice said:


> Flash's speed is actually visible.
> Goku's speed is in form of 'teleports'
> Flash can only stay on the ground
> Goku can fly.
> ...


Yep your bob on with that one mate.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:


> Has Goku ever punched someone into orbit or done anything equivalent to that before? Didn't think so



ummm goku has damaged foes that shrugged off planet destroying attacks. Can flash do that. Think not


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 1, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> ummm goku has damaged foes that shrugged off planet destroying attacks. Can flash do that. Think not



Please show me someone in DB shrugging off a planet destroying attack.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:


> Please show me someone in DB shrugging off a planet destroying attack.



one second

When you say DB you mean all of DBZ right not just Dragonball?


----------



## tanukibeast (Dec 1, 2006)

I really don't see how people still think Goku can win this.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 1, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> one second
> 
> When you say DB you mean all of DBZ right not just Dragonball?



Yes, the origonal manga is just called Dragon Ball and it covers everything in DB and DBZ. The Z was only added in the anime so I just left it off


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:


> Yes, the origonal manga is just called Dragon Ball and it covers everything in DB and DBZ. The Z was only added in the anime so I just left it off



Here's Frieza Casually Shrugging off a planet destroying blast by Vegeta 

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/


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## Thanatos (Dec 1, 2006)

I'm too lazy to read the previous 300 posts, so I'll just say the Flash. There is just no way that Goku can keep up with him. Flight and energy powers are meaningless when he'll never get a chance to use them.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 1, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> Here's Frieza Casually Shrugging off a planet destroying blast by Vegeta
> 
> cnn.com/165432/
> 
> ...



Frieza didn't take the blast, he deflected it...


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Here's frieza casually shrugging off a planet buster from kaoken X 20 Goku

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/


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## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

here's frieza shrugging off another planet buster from ssj goku

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/


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## Thanatos (Dec 1, 2006)

Let me just add, that if Goku could somehow miraculously get a hit in, he would win. However, unless the Flash trips over, or stops to tie a shoelace a couple of 100,000,000 times or something that would delay him long enough for Goku to see him, Goku will never get this chance.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

here's goku and vegeta in the saiyan saga's with weak PL's trading plaent destroying attacks and vegeta shrugging it off

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/

cnn.com/165432/

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Link removed

here's vegeta back after casually shrugging it off

Link removed


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

here's cell casually shrugging off vegeta's planet buster

[Yoroshiku]_Kekkaishi_-_03_(1024x576)_(H264)

[Yoroshiku]_Kekkaishi_-_03_(1024x576)_(H264)

[Yoroshiku]_Kekkaishi_-_03_(1024x576)_(H264)

[Yoroshiku]_Kekkaishi_-_03_(1024x576)_(H264)

[Yoroshiku]_Kekkaishi_-_03_(1024x576)_(H264)


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:


> Please show me someone in DB shrugging off a planet destroying attack.


Master roshi in Dragonball was able to destroy the moon with the Kamehameha blast.
Now my point is Tien in Dbz in the saiyan saga who by that time was easily 10time's more powerfull then roshi, fired a full powered tri beam attack at nappa which killed Tien because it consumed up all of his ki to do it, And Nappa came out of it completely unharmed.
So sorry but that's more then enough proof that even the earlier dbz character are able to shrug off planet destroying attack's.


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Dec 1, 2006)

This is all really irrelevent since Goku wouldn't be able to hit Flash with any ki blast to begin with unless Flash just stands still like a retard and does nothing.


----------



## Kai (Dec 1, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Master roshi in Dragonball was able to destroy the moon with the Kamehameha blast.
> Now my point is Tien in Dbz in the saiyan saga who by that time was easily 10time's more powerfull then roshi, *fired a full powered tri beam attack at nappa which killed Tien because it consumed up all of his ki to do it, And Nappa came out of it completely unharmed.*
> So sorry but that's more then enough proof that even the earlier dbz character are able to shrug off planet destroying attack's.



Oooh, I just had to respond to this one.
Considering Tien lost one ofhis arms, was on the ground grueling in pain, and consumed most of his ki already.

Seriously,  Flash can vibrate every single molecule in Goku's body to the point of oblivion all under a second.

I doubt it would result to this, but Flash can speedsteal Goku making him a rendering statue on the ground. Goku's feats are useless here if he's not fast enough to execute them.

Kamehameha- Too slow
Spirit bomb- much too slow
Trans. to SSJ1- hmm i'll give him that
Trans. to SSJ2- too slow
Trans. to SSJ3- much too slow


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Space said:


> Oooh, I just had to respond to this one.
> Considering Tien lost one ofhis arms, was on the ground grueling in pain, and consumed most of his ki already.
> 
> Seriously,  Flash can vibrate every single molecule in Goku's body to the point of oblivion all under a second.
> ...




wtf???? how the fukk is goku to slow in ssj2 and ssj3??


----------



## Kai (Dec 1, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> wtf???? how the fukk is goku to slow in ssj2 and ssj3??



Due to the fact of a humongous stats and abilities increase, it takes time for him  to concentrate and build enough energy to transform.

You're not going to see or read Goku in the park with a huge smile on his face and then POP super saiyan 3. There will be a serious face, a position, and some yelling involved.

He's highly used to SSJ as he was maintaining SSJ as his natural state for 7 days before the Cell games so he can go to SSJ form nearly instantly. It's a different case for the other forms. You, out of all people should know that jplaya.


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

^Umm, no
Goku can easily go ssj2 in less than a second. SSJ3 is another story, it'll take atleast 30 seconds to transform. SSJ1 and SSJ2 take the same amount of time

But on topic, flash rapes goku


----------



## Crimson King (Dec 1, 2006)

Right as the match begins, Flas hsteals Goku's speed and speedblitzes him.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Firemind said:


> ^Umm, no
> Goku can easily go ssj2 in less than a second. SSJ3 is another story, it'll take atleast 30 seconds to transform. SSJ1 and SSJ2 take the same amount of time
> 
> But on topic, flash rapes goku



does this look like 30 seconds??

[Yoroshiku]_Kekkaishi_-_03_(1024x576)_(H264)

[Yoroshiku]_Kekkaishi_-_03_(1024x576)_(H264)


----------



## Crimson King (Dec 1, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> does this look like 30 seconds??
> 
> [Yoroshiku]_Kekkaishi_-_03_(1024x576)_(H264)
> 
> [Yoroshiku]_Kekkaishi_-_03_(1024x576)_(H264)



yes it does


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Crimson King said:


> Right as the match begins, Flas hsteals Goku's speed and speedblitzes him.



lol @ speed blitz goku 

linear speed != combat speed

goku senses flash and carnally rapes him with ryuken 

goku in the air = flash has no chance

goku on the ground = flash has 5% chance of winning but wont because in battle he's a putz


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> does this look like 30 seconds??
> 
> [Yoroshiku]_Kekkaishi_-_03_(1024x576)_(H264)
> 
> [Yoroshiku]_Kekkaishi_-_03_(1024x576)_(H264)



I don't see how u measure time in manga, i just go by the anime and it took goku some time


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Firemind said:


> i just go by the anime



which is why debating with you is futile we're not even on the same page. Step your manga game up. I can link you to an online manga u have to paypal me 5 bucks though


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

It doesn't matter how long it takes goku, he loses either way


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

Space said:


> Oooh, I just had to respond to this one.
> Considering Tien lost one ofhis arms, was on the ground grueling in pain, and consumed most of his ki already.


Yes but he still managed to exercute the move sacrificing himself for the honor of his lost freind chotzu even though he new he would die in return because it's so powerful it comsume's your own life span.
And dont tell me that move wasn't powerful then roshi's kamehameha on the moon, even the other z fighter's were shocked how nappa even managed to survive it, plus this is the move that managed to keep cell from moving even though cell was about 1000 time's more powerful then Tien.
And even if Tien was at only 10% power against Nappa he was still more then 10 time's if not more powerfull then what roshi was.
So I think it's quite safe to say that move was more then strong enough.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Firemind said:


> It doesn't matter how long it takes goku, he loses either way



nope not letting it go that easy. First admit you were wrong and talking outta your ass when you stated 30 seconds. Second stop being so damn bias and open your damn eyes flash has no chance in hell in beating goku NONE.


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

Firemind said:


> I don't see how u measure time in manga, i just go by the anime and it took goku some time


No it didn't at all, what anime have you been watching? in the anime he say's okay here goe's as buu's about to attack and then straight away he turn's into ss3 from being normal.


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> nope not letting it go that easy. First admit you were wrong and talking outta your ass when you stated 30 seconds. Second stop being so damn bias and open your damn eyes flash has no chance in hell in beating goku NONE.



U still didn't answer my question of how u measure time in manga? And u're calling me biased 
Flash goes multiple times ftl, goku doesn't even go ftl, u do the math



> No it didn't at all, what anime have you been watching? in the anime he say's okay here goe's as buu's about to attack and then straight away he turn's into ss3 from being normal.



What anime r u watching? Go rewatch the buu fights, he actually screams for a while and then he transforms


----------



## Kai (Dec 1, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> lol @ speed blitz goku
> 
> linear speed != combat speed


Lol @ you thinking Goku can go SSJ3 instantly.
Tell me what goku will do RIGHT when the battle starts. The Flash would go straight for Goku and steal his speed. The instance he steals Goku's speed-it's over.



			
				jplaya said:
			
		

> goku senses flash and carnally rapes him with ryuken


Ryuken isn't canon and I'm not sure if OP is allowing it. 
How is he going to sense flash? And explain in detail please. 



			
				Jplaya said:
			
		

> goku in the air = flash has no chance


Stop making up your biased opinions please.

Barry Allen is known to be faster than thought, and he time travels all the time. He is faster than light, and can vibrate through any object(Goku would be even simpler). He can vibrate all of Goku's molecules and make Goku internally explode. Goku doesn't have any impressive inner body feats, as shown he was completely useless to a heart virus.



			
				jplaya said:
			
		

> goku on the ground = flash has 5% chance of winning but wont because in battle he's a putz


You're just denouncing Flash with no evidence of how Goku would win.


----------



## King-Oblivion (Dec 1, 2006)

I don't like either of them but Goku is immortal...I mean come on the guy comes back to life even when deemed imposible.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Space said:


> Lol @ you thinking Goku can go SSJ3 instantly.
> Tell me what goku will do RIGHT when the battle starts. The Flash would go straight for Goku and steal his speed. The instance he steals Goku's speed-it's over.
> 
> 
> ...




jesus your denser than scuzzybachi's adam's apple. I gave plenty evidence 

but i'll give you a summary

fighting style = goku by a mile
linear speed = flash (but who cares)
combat speed = goku by the length of the earth
power = goku by a longshot
strength = goku by a whole lot
technique's = goku by far
ability to increase one's power = goku by a green mile
flying = goku
combat experience = goku
durability in battle = goku
flash's only advantage is something thats only relevent in a race not a fight.


----------



## Kai (Dec 1, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Yes but he still managed to exercute the move sacrificing himself for the honor of his lost freind chotzu even though he new he would die in return because it's so powerful it comsume's your own life span.
> And dont tell me that move wasn't powerful then roshi's kamehameha on the moon, even the other z fighter's were shocked how nappa even managed to survive it, plus this is the move that managed to keep cell from moving even though cell was about *1000* time's more powerful then Tien.
> And even if Tien was at only 10% power against Nappa he was still more then 10 time's if not more powerfull then what roshi was.
> So I think it's quite safe to say that move was more then strong enough.



Where did you get that 1,000 number? 
Lol, yes Roshi's feat was impressive and fast, and Tien's kikoho cannon is much stronger, but it's far from equally fast. It would not be able to tag Flash. He's faster than thought.


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

> Firemind said:
> 
> 
> > U still didn't answer my question of how u measure time in manga? And u're calling me biased
> ...


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> > Where's is your proof that goku cant go ftl?
> >
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Firemind said:


> I don't have to prove that goku's not ftl, u're claiming he is, so u show us the proof that goku's ftl
> 
> I really don't feel like going to youtube and posting a link, just go watch the episode at around 230's. He takes atleast 20-30 seconds



here's episode 252 Kyle's mom is a bitch (Spanish Version)

notice it dont take no damn 30 seconds


----------



## Kai (Dec 1, 2006)

jplaya said:
			
		

> did u see the damn scans he went ssj3 from base instantly


Alright. Let's say I make a comic. In one panel, I say bye to my friend in Australia. In the next panel, it shows me in my home eating dinner. Does that mean i teleported from Australia to my home instantly?



			
				jplaya said:
			
		

> sense flash by his ki signal duh
> 
> ki = life force



1. Too bad Barry Allen is faster than the process of thought, and would speedsteal Goku before the senses process in Goku's brain.

2. You can't utilize the DB universe's law into Flash. Flash doesn't use Ki in any way, nor does he have any. (All humans in DB have Ki, but DC is not revolved by that principle)




			
				jplaya said:
			
		

> you god damn hypocrit


Shut up, please. I am far from biased here. I have nothing against DBZ at all.



			
				jplaya said:
			
		

> goku's IT >>>>>>>> flash's speed


True, but where's he going to go to? Flash will be there in a fraction of a second. IT consumes concentration and alot of energy from Goku, so his IT is strictly limited. And fighting at the same speed as the Flash would be impossible, and to concentrate is to think, and as I said earlier Flash is faster than thought.


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

> Space said:
> 
> 
> > Where did you get that 1,000 number?
> ...


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> here's episode 252 Kyle's mom is a bitch (Spanish Version)
> 
> notice it dont take no damn 30 seconds



Dude, i was using 30 seconds as an approximate, it's still pretty close to 30 seconds


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Space said:


> Alright. Let's say I make a comic. In one panel, I say bye to my friend in Australia. In the next panel, it shows me in my home eating dinner. Does that mean i teleported from Australia to my home instantly?
> 
> *there's no way you're this anal. Buu was on his way to attack goku now your gonna tell me it took buu 30 seconds to get to goku. Use your head man. Damn this sheeit is ridiculous*
> 
> ...



IT + Kamehameha = Game Over


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Firemind said:


> Dude, i was using 30 seconds as an approximate, it's still pretty close to 30 seconds



are you blind?? Look at the damn time interval 1 seconds or 2 seconds at the most. You talk outta your ass more than Crimson King after he's throttled by the local school bully and he's on all 4 pleading


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

> Firemind said:
> 
> 
> > [QUOTE
> ...


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

Firemind said:


> Dude, i was using 30 seconds as an approximate, it's still pretty close to 30 seconds


He say's the word's I allready told you and then doe's it in about a second where did you get 30 from? or is this just the extra shit your adding for your false argument?


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

Well, when goku first transforms to SSJ3, it took him 20-30 seconds, and i was using that, i forgot about the super buu fight. And i know that against kid buu it took him atleast 10 seconds.

And goku going SSJ3 isn't really going to be a factor in this battle, since goku gets raped the moment this battle starts. Prove that goku can keep up with flash then come and talk some shit


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Firemind said:


> Well, when goku first transforms to SSJ3, it took him 20-30 seconds, and i was using that, i forgot about the super buu fight. And i know that against kid buu it took him atleast 10 seconds.
> 
> *goku stated the transformation was new to him on earth thats why it seemed longer. Just bow out already please this is emberassing for the OB*
> 
> And goku going SSJ3 isn't really going to be a factor in this battle, since goku gets raped the moment this battle starts. Prove that goku can keep up with flash then come and talk some shit



RIGHT thats why flash gets raped by rogues much slower than goku


----------



## Kai (Dec 1, 2006)

jplaya said:
			
		

> there's no way you're this anal. Buu was on his way to attack goku now your gonna tell me it took buu 30 seconds to get to goku. Use your head man. Damn this sheeit is ridiculous


I never said it would take him 30 seconds, that was Firemind. However, still in that video Goku took a couple seconds to turn SSJ3, which is way too much time.



			
				jplaya said:
			
		

> just like you wanna use DC laws on goku. Prove flash can speed steal goku when different principles apply to their speed.


What? different principles? If someone like Superman punches Goku, the punch will effect him and he will be knocked back. There are no "different principles", it's common sense. *Flash is faster than thought, how are you going to go by arguing that?*
1. Sensing Flash(even though he can't, but I'll play by your way), the senses would have to process in his brain, and THEN he would have to react to it somehow. Too slow.

2. IT- True it is much faster than Flash as it is INSTANTANEOUS, but it takes Goku time to put 2 fingers up to his head and then sense. Tsk tsk, too slow.

3. Jplaya, do you understand that Goku will have to fight at top notch Class S and beyond superspeeds this ENTIRE FIGHT? He will have no small chances  to put 2 fingers to his head or adjust his pants or anything of the sort. He will have to fight what his body cannot handle the ENTIRE FIGHT.







			
				jplaya said:
			
		

> All living humans in all works of fiction have a life force otherwise they'd be dead


True, but you can't just automatically assume that it's Ki. Stan Lee and others would find it absurd.



			
				Jplaya said:
			
		

> bullshit i thought you wasnt one of them when i seen the post in the superman vs dbu thread but you were just putting up a front then. This is the real you


In that thread, it's so obviously that DBZ won that battle. Even a retarded monkey could figure it out. If there's someone stronger than a DBZ character, I'm going to state it. I'm not like you, whose going to stick by Goku no matter what.
Listen to yourself. That I wasn't "one of them?" Come on, that's so childish.


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

> Firemind said:
> 
> 
> > Well, when goku first transforms to SSJ3, it took him 20-30 seconds, and i was using that, i forgot about the super buu fight. And i know that against kid buu it took him atleast 10 seconds.
> ...


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 1, 2006)

Jplaya takes another foregone conclusion to support his idiotic fanwank.

Listen, the Flash reacts at attosecond intervals. Even if the neurons in Goku's brain travelled at a million times the speed of the neurons of normal humans, Flash would still be able to kill him before one neuron even moved the width of a human hair.


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

Wow, the great jaydaime and jplaya proved me wrong!!!!!! 
Great job (Hope u guys's brains understand the sarcasm)

And all u proved was that goku can transform into SSJ3 in about 2 seconds, how does that help him defeat flash?
Why don't u post a manga scan where goku's actualy going ftl?


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

Basically if goku want's it was just proven that he can go ss3 straight away, and if he really want's to he can use his energy to put a shield around him so how can the flash hurt him then?.
So all Goku doe's is fly up in the sky and do a warp kamehameha! end of.
Night night flash.


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Dec 1, 2006)

> Even if goku fired a blast at the flash and it missed the aftermath of the blast would still kill him.


Like hell it would. Wally would be far beyond the blast radius before it even hit.


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

Too bad goku can't react to the speed of flash who goes millions of times ftl


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Space said:


> I never said it would take him 30 seconds, that was Firemind. However, still in that video Goku took a couple seconds to turn SSJ3, which is way too much time.
> 
> *it took 1 damn second man what are u watching?*
> 
> ...



There is nothing flash can do to hurt goku. Goku can continue to increase his ki in a fight while flash remains the same throughout. Flash has no chance in hell beating goku

See what you did. Now endless mike is lurking this thread only god knows the nonsense he's bound to post.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Dec 1, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Basically if goku want's it was just proven that he can go ss3 straight away, and if he really want's to he can use his energy to put a shield around him so how can the flash hurt him then?.
> So all Goku doe's is fly up in the sky and do a warp kamehameha! end of.
> Night night flash.



You dont seem to understand just how fast the Flash is.


----------



## Kai (Dec 1, 2006)

Ok, I'm just going to lay out the foundation of Flash's victory.

Flash is faster than the process of thought, so before you or Jplaya state any of Goku's "amazing feats" it would have to process in his brain first.

Sorry but it's just too slow. Flash has got him, stolen his speed, and rendered his useless by then.

Then onto infinite mass punching him to death. GG goku, you can always be wished back by the Dragonballs.


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

Do DBZ tards ever learn?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 1, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Basically if goku want's it was just proven that he can go ss3 straight away, and i he really want to he can use his energy to put a shield around him so how can the flash hurt him then?.
> So all Goku doe's is fly up in the sky and do a warp kamehameha! end of
> Night night flash.



You're an idiot.

Goku won't even be able to react before he dies, he won't be able to think fast enough to do anything before Flash reaches him.

Furthermore, even if he does get a shield up, Flash can just vibrate through it, or go back in time to before it was up and hit him then, or IMP him, or do a billion other things.

He's not going to get up into the air before Flash reaches him, and even if he does, Flash will just jump up and hit him, from Flash's perspective he will be frozen still in time.

Warp kamehameha? You mean the move that he has to spend 15 seconds charging up first? LOL. Even Cell, who is nowhere near as fast as the Flash, had time to talk and react before it hit him. Assuming for some strange reason that Flash didn't kill him right away and actually gave him the time to charge it up and teleport next to him, Flash would still dodge it or vibrate through it.


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

Did goku ever create a shield?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 1, 2006)

I think once for a fraction of a second against Picollo Daimaoh and once against Cell.


----------



## Orion (Dec 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> You're an idiot.
> 
> Goku won't even be able to react before he dies, he won't be able to think fast enough to do anything before Flash reaches him.
> 
> ...



think endless mike sumed it up nicely  .and to answer your question firemind i believe he did it only in a movie which isnt canon.


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

ShadowReplication1480 said:


> Like hell it would. Wally would be far beyond the blast radius before it even hit.


That's if he seen it coming, goku could just go so high that flash couldn't see it and then fire what's he gonna do then?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 1, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> That's if he seen it coming, goku could just go so high that flash couldn't see it and then fire what's he gonna do then?


]

Assuming that for some reason Flash was being lazy and let him get up into the air in the first place, he would just jump in the air at superspeed and vibrate his hand through Goku's head and make it explode.


----------



## Orion (Dec 1, 2006)

^^flash moves so fast everything is in slow motion how many times do you have to be told this,goku trying to get away would still be frozen in time to flash.


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

I think there's a new jplaya around now


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Dec 1, 2006)

You know, I'm sick and tired of the DBZtards relying on the weak ass crutch that is the Warp Kamehameha against people whose reaction times would gurantee that it'd never hit.


----------



## Kai (Dec 1, 2006)

*For every single godamn thing Goku does oon the planet, he will have to think first.*

It's as simple as that. GAME OVER. The Flash can do a billion other things to toy with Goku. Going back in time is easy, and he can vibrate through any of goku's physical attacks.

Jplaya, you said goku takes a second to power up to SSJ3. No point. Too slow.


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> You're an idiot.
> 
> Goku won't even be able to react before he dies, he won't be able to think fast enough to do anything before Flash reaches him.
> 
> ...


Even if flash did reach him he wouldn't be able to hurt him if goku can take attack's that destroy planet's what the fuck is the flash gonna do? and how can flash attack him in the air? and just for the reconing cell didn't dodge that blast he got half his body blown off.



Firemind said:


> Did goku ever create a shield?


well if gohan can do it against garlic jr then im pretty dam sure goku can.



> vlaaad12345 said:
> 
> 
> > think endless mike sumed it up
> ...


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

ShadowReplication1480 said:


> You know, I'm sick and tired of the DBZtards relying on the weak ass crutch that is the Warp Kamehameha against people whose reaction times would gurantee that it'd never hit.




and im sick and tired of you flash dickriders talking about this speed force bullshit when he's been tagged by much slower people than goku


----------



## Suzumebachi (Dec 1, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> and im sick and tired of you flash dickriders talking about this speed force bullshit when he's been tagged by much slower people than goku



Like how Goku got tagged by a casually thrown rock?


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

ShadowReplication1480 said:


> You know, I'm sick and tired of the DBZtards relying on the weak ass crutch that is the Warp Kamehameha against people whose reaction times would gurantee that it'd never hit.


The feeling's mutual I feel exactly the same about you comic boy buff's, and that's your opinion, and Im not sticking up for dbz because I like it Im sticking up for it because it's fucking obvious that goku can beat the flash.


----------



## Kai (Dec 1, 2006)

Alright, Endless Mike and others don't be attempted by Jplaya to post Flash's feats please. It's just going to go on in a neverending cycle of pointless arguments and BS.

Jplaya and Jaydaime, you've yet to respond to my previous post.


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Even if flash did reach him he wouldn't be able to hurt him if goku can take attack's that destroy planet's what the fuck is the flash gonna do? and how can flash attack him in the air? and just for the reconing cell didn't dodge that blast he got half his body blown off.
> 
> 
> well if gohan can do it against garlic jr then im pretty dam sure goku can.
> ...


----------



## Orion (Dec 1, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Even if flash did reach him he wouldn't be able to hurt him if goku can take attack's that destroy planet's what the fuck is the flash gonna do? and how can flash attack him in the air? and just for the reconing cell didn't dodge that blast he got half his body blown off.
> 
> 
> well if gohan can do it against garlic jr then im pretty dam sure goku can.
> ...


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Space said:


> Alright, Endless Mike and others don't be attempted by Jplaya to post Flash's feats please. It's just going to go on in a neverending cycle of pointless arguments and BS.
> 
> Jplaya and Jaydaime, you've yet to respond to my previous post.



i dont want feats as they have no place in battledome i wanna see flash in actual fights going at speeds dickriders claim he can


----------



## Suzumebachi (Dec 1, 2006)

> Even if flash did reach him he wouldn't be able to hurt him if goku can take attack's that destroy planet's what the fuck is the flash gonna do? and how can flash attack him in the air? and just for the reconing cell didn't dodge that blast he got half his body blown off.



What can he do? Make Goku explode by vibrating through him. I fail to see how Goku would survive that.

Also, the only attack Goku ever took that destroyed a planet killed him. So your argument is fail.


> well if gohan can do it against garlic jr then im pretty dam sure goku can.



Garlic Jr. is not canon.


> Yeah and get your tonge from up his ass.



Said jplaya's dupe account.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Dec 1, 2006)

BTW, anyone have the Flash and Zoom fight on hand?


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

Space said:


> *For every single godamn thing Goku does oon the planet, he will have to think first.*
> 
> It's as simple as that. GAME OVER. The Flash can do a billion other things to toy with Goku. Going back in time is easy, and he can vibrate through any of goku's physical attacks.
> 
> Jplaya, you said goku takes a second to power up to SSJ3. No point. Too slow.



So basically by your logic the flash can beat anyone then?


----------



## Kai (Dec 1, 2006)

Flash has stole Goku's speed as soon as goku has even begun to process of thinking.

How can you counter that? I really want to know.


----------



## Orion (Dec 1, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> So basically by your logic the flash can beat anyone then?



is he is bloodlusted and using his abilities to the fullest like in this match he is broken as hell yes he would be able to take preety much every one of the rest of justice league except maybe j'onn(and thats a big maybe).


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:


> Said jplaya's dupe account.



dont be mad at me cause u got 10 aliases Rild. You're really pathetic


----------



## Orion (Dec 1, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> dont be mad at me cause u got 10 aliases Rild. You're really pathetic



suzu is rild...where did you pull that one from  .


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> suzu is rild...where did you pull that one from  .



IP lookup and its obvious


----------



## Orion (Dec 1, 2006)

so suzu is a schitzo and argues with himself over the internet....lol i find that kinda funny lol.even though i dont believe anything u say for a second.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 1, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> so suzu is a schitzo and argues with himself over the internet....lol i find that kinda funny lol.even though i dont believe anything u say for a second.



obviously just look at the post their always constructed the same no matter what alias IT logs into


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

> wow how can i argue against such  facts(/end sarcasm)first of all i dont have my head nor tongue or any other part up endless mikes ass,and second u just owned yourself since garlic jr. isnt canon,way to go showing off ur vast knowledge.


Sorry Im not a geek that read's endless comic's like you so I forgot.
And like your leader endless mike say's he's seen goku use shield's so just go with what your mate say's that's all you ever do.


> =Suzumebachi;6188768]What can he do? Make Goku explode by vibrating through him. I fail to see how Goku would survive that
> How do you that the flash's pathetic punch's can even hurt goku?
> Also, the only attack Goku ever took that destroyed a planet killed him. So your argument is fail.


Most ki blast's in dbz can destroy planet's and goku can handle them so how doe's my argument fail?


> Said jplaya's dupe account.


Why Im Intitled to my opinion's, and my opinion is goku would beat flash it's only comic geek's that think otherwise.
And Im not the one who just agree's with endless mike all the time like you guy's do.


> =Space;6188807]Flash has stole Goku's speed as soon as goku has even begun to process of thinking.


And what? he cant hurt him and goku's fighting speed sure aint slow.


> How can you counter that? I really want to know.


Like I just said he cant hurt him, so you counter that.
And it's 4.00am where I am now so Ill debate with you tomoz inabit.


----------



## Kai (Dec 1, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Space said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok awesome you agree that Flash can speed steal Goku. Now that Goku is rendered completely motionless, you think Flash can't damage Goku? Please.

Vibrating through his body, making him explode, infinite mass punching him, trap him in a speedcage, there's endless possibilities to it.

You basically surrendered the debate.

GG, and onto the next.


----------



## Orion (Dec 1, 2006)

^^u have yet to prove that being vibrated through wont kill goku.thats for jaydaime.


----------



## Kai (Dec 1, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> ^^u have yet to prove that being vibrated through wont kill goku.thats for jaydaime.



I just cleared up 95% of the debate. You handle the rest, Mike. I'm way exhausted today, but it was interesting.


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Dec 1, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Most ki blast's in dbz can destroy planet's and goku can handle them so how doe's my argument fail?


- Ummm, no. They have to charge them up in order to pierce the planet's core, so no, "most" ki blasts aren't planet-killers.



> And what? he cant hurt him
> 
> Like I just said he cant hurt him.
> And it's 4.00am where I am now so Ill debate with you tomoz inabit.


Goku has no protection from Flash vibrating his hand through Goku's chest and making him explode.


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

Space said:


> Ok awesome you agree that Flash can speed steal Goku. Now that Goku is rendered completely motionless, you think Flash can't damage Goku? Please.
> 
> Vibrating through his body, making him explode, infinite mass punching him, trap him in a speedcage, there's endless possibilities to it.
> 
> ...


I was just about to go to bed and then I noticed this, Im pretty tired so I was just agreeing like I said it's 4 in the morning, and the only thing I was admitting to just then is flash is faster then Goku which he is.


----------



## Jay (Dec 1, 2006)

Space said:


> I just cleared up 95% of the debate. You handle the rest, Mike. I'm way exhausted today, but it was interesting.


How fucking sad you handle the rest mike, there's my point follow your leader because you cant think for yourself's.
Anyway Im off.


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

Well, ur leader is jplaya, and that's pretty sad, jaydaime


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 1, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Even if flash did reach him he wouldn't be able to hurt him if goku can take attack's that destroy planet's what the fuck is the flash gonna do?



First of all, it's arguable that Goku has ever taken an attack head - on that had the power to destroy a planet. Second of all, the Flash can steal his speed, freezing him in place, by simply touching him or getting near him, or he can hit him with an Infinite Mass Punch, which delivers the kinetic impact of a White Dwarf Star (far more massive than the earth). He can vibrate his body through Goku and make him explode into a million pieces, or dump him into the speedforce where he will be trapped forever.



> and how can flash attack him in the air?



Create a whirlwind to suck him down, or jump up and hit him. He is fast enough to jump to escape velocity IIRC.



> and just for the reconing cell didn't dodge that blast he got half his body blown off.



I never said he did. However, he was able to react to it. When Goku teleported in front of him Cell said something like "WTF?" before he got hit.



> well if gohan can do it against garlic jr then im pretty dam sure goku can.



Garlic Jr. is non - canon....


----------



## Kai (Dec 1, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> How fucking sad you handle the rest mike, there's my point follow your leader because you cant think for yourself's.
> Anyway Im off.



Leader? I debate against Mike at times you don't need to get so defensive.

If you admit that Flash is faster than Goku, then just use common sense and it will guide you to see that Flash wins rather easily.

You're probably too stupid to figure it out now that it's 4 in the morning there, but once you wake up you'll understand hopefully.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 1, 2006)

I love how Jaydaime has never read a single Flash comic in his life yet he thinks it's obvious that Goku wins....


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 1, 2006)

DBZ tards will never accept anything


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> First of all, it's arguable that Goku has ever taken an attack head - on that had the power to destroy a planet. Second of all, the Flash can steal his speed, freezing him in place, by simply touching him or getting near him, or he can hit him with an Infinite Mass Punch, which delivers the kinetic impact of a White Dwarf Star (far more massive than the earth). He can vibrate his body through Goku and make him explode into a million pieces, or dump him into the speedforce where he will be trapped forever.



miss the vegeta goku fight in the saiyan saga where he fired a planet destroying blast at goku who deflected it with an even stronger planet estroying blast


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> miss the vegeta goku fight in the saiyan saga where he fired a planet destroying blast at goku who deflected it with an even stronger planet estroying blast



That's if you believe Vegeta, and irregardless of that, it didn't actually hit him, he intercepted it with another ki blast.


----------



## Kazuma the Shell Bullet (Dec 2, 2006)

Flash simply rapid vibrates and melts Goku to a puddle


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 2, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:


> BTW, anyone have the Flash and Zoom fight on hand?



Its a few hours late but I will post them anyways 













If Flash uses the speed formula the fight would be over before Goku even realized what was happening lol


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

IMO the race with Krakkl and the Cosmic Gambler was even more impressive.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> IMO the race with Krakkl and the Cosmic Gambler was even more impressive.



True, but those were special circumstances that will not be replicated in this fight so its kinda pointless. It was still awesome though


----------



## potential (Dec 2, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:


> Its a few hours late but I will post them anyways
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How fast is zoom and what is his power. Also WTF at the ending i dont get it. What happened. WHat does he mean he's won nothing


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

Luffylee5 said:


> How fast is zoom and what is his power. Also WTF at the ending i dont get it. What happened. WHat does he mean he's won nothing



1. How fast is Zoom?

- Fast.

2. What is his power?

- He is able to alter the passage of time around him to create superspeed. Sort of like the Shrike, except without all the other nifty abilities like temporal clones and such.

3. What happened at the end?

- Flash was trying to use his powers to send Zoom back to his own timeline but it backfired and something went wrong, I don't remember the details exactly because I haven't read the issue in context for a while.


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

Jplaya and Jaydaime unadmittingly concede to this battle. Onto the next one.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 2, 2006)

> That's if you believe Vegeta, and irregardless of that, it didn't actually hit him, he intercepted it with another ki blast.



And at the sametime that Vegeta could never hope to hurt Goku by the end of the series, he would take the attack on the chin and laugh. So if that blast could blow up the planet Goku could survive attacks on that level.

Anyway I don't really know who would win this match up. Flash vibrating through Goku's molecules and making him explode possibly wouldn't work, Goku's body is pretty tough as he can handle 400x earths gravity at least.


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

gunners said:


> And at the sametime that Vegeta could never hope to hurt Goku by the end of the series, he would take the attack on the chin and laugh. So if that blast could blow up the planet Goku could survive attacks on that level.


Enough of goku's feats.



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Anyway I don't really know who would win this match up. Flash vibrating through Goku's molecules and making him explode possibly wouldn't work, Goku's body is pretty tough as he can handle 400x earths gravity at least.



Why wouldn't it work? 400X earth's gravity doesn't do anything to the body INTERNALLY, and Goku's internal body doesn't have any special qualities.

Read these last few pages and then tell us your imput.

Goku can't escape from the speedsteal and Jplaya + Jaydaime have admitted it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

gunners said:


> And at the sametime that Vegeta could never hope to hurt Goku by the end of the series, he would take the attack on the chin and laugh. So if that blast could blow up the planet Goku could survive attacks on that level.



Unsupported Assertion.



> Anyway I don't really know who would win this match up. Flash vibrating through Goku's molecules and making him explode possibly wouldn't work, Goku's body is pretty tough as he can handle 400x earths gravity at least.



It's been implied to be effective on everything short of Superman, aka Mr. "I can sit comfy at the core of the sun and escape from black holes".


----------



## Gunners (Dec 2, 2006)

> Why wouldn't it work? 400X earth's gravity doesn't do anything to the body INTERNALLY, and Goku's internal body doesn't have any special qualities.
> 
> Read these last few pages and then tell us your imput.
> 
> ...



Training in 400x earths gravity would strengthen your insides. You organs would weight 400x the original amount, a reason why humans would die at 4x earths gravity.



> Unsupported Assertion.


Vegeta at the sajjin point in time could never dream off hurting Goku by the end of the series. He got his ass beat by Raccum who was swiftly owned by Goku. Vegeta has managed to score a clean hit with his ki attacks at later points but they don't damage some people.



> It's been implied to be effective on everything short of Superman, aka Mr. "I can sit comfy at the core of the sun and escape from black holes".



Can you show me people he has blown up with it then, like people with high durability.



			
				Space said:
			
		

> Enough of goku's feats.


Why? Isn't this Goku vs the Flash?

___________

And zoom was fast if Flash reached that speed he would take the match, I don't think he can reach that speed anyway, if he could he wouldn't have allowed zoom to beat his ass for so long and destroy his twins.


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Why? Isn't this Goku vs the Flash?



No. It's the Flash vs Goku



			
				Space said:
			
		

> Flash has stole Goku's speed as soon as goku has even begun to process of thinking



I love the power of copy+paste so you don't have to repeat everything over and over.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 2, 2006)

> No. It's the Flash vs Goku



Don't be a prick now.



> I love the power of copy+paste so you don't have to repeat everything over and over.



I am sorry, in the post did I bring up anything that was supposed to confront Flash stealing speed from Goku, I beleive I didn't adress that point so why you are copy and pasting it as though you have done some greatness I don't actually know.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 2, 2006)

Space said:


> Jplaya and Jaydaime unadmittingly concede to this battle. Onto the next one.



the hell are you talking about? forgive me if im not posting on the site every second of the day. SMH


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

gunners said:


> Don't be a prick now.


Just stating the obvious unnecessity.





			
				gunners said:
			
		

> I am sorry, in the post did I bring up anything that was supposed to confront Flash stealing speed from Goku, I beleive I didn't adress that point so why you are copy and pasting it as though you have done some greatness I don't actually know.



No, you didn't respond to me when I said read a few pages back so I wasn't sure if you actually read the entire battle or just skipped to the last page.

Yet I'm still waiting for your answer... what can Goku do to stop Flash? This Flash is faster than the process of thought....and Goku  has no superhuman thinking processes. Before he finishes his thought let alone react, his speed would have been stolen.


----------



## Orion (Dec 2, 2006)

^^and then vibrated to pieces.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 2, 2006)

> No, you didn't respond to me when I said read a few pages back so I wasn't sure if you actually read the entire battle or just skipped to the last page.
> 
> Yet I'm still waiting for your answer... what can Goku do to stop Flash? This Flash is faster than the process of thought....and Goku has no superhuman thinking processes. Before he finishes his thought let alone react, his speed would have been stolen.



You know I had a huge debate about Goku still being able to move through converting Ki energy to kinetic energy. If flash steals his Ek Goku could still probably transform Ki energy to Ek. Unless when he steals speed they are unable to think.

Anyway if Goku gets in the air how will the Flash steal his speed, doesn't he need contact to do so?


----------



## Gunners (Dec 2, 2006)

> No, you didn't respond to me when I said read a few pages back so I wasn't sure if you actually read the entire battle or just skipped to the last page.
> 
> Yet I'm still waiting for your answer... what can Goku do to stop Flash? This Flash is faster than the process of thought....and Goku has no superhuman thinking processes. Before he finishes his thought let alone react, his speed would have been stolen.



You know I had a huge debate about Goku still being able to move through converting Ki energy to kinetic energy. If flash steals his Ek Goku could still probably transform Ki energy to Ek. Unless when he steals speed they are unable to think.

Anyway if Goku gets in the air how will the Flash steal his speed, doesn't he need contact to do so?


----------



## Orion (Dec 2, 2006)

^^flash could jump and steal his speed faster then goku could even be aware of it happening,and besides unless goku starts out in the air  in this fight,which he doesnt he wont get up there anyways.


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> the hell are you talking about? forgive me if im not posting on the site every second of the day. SMH



Stop assuming and getting my statements all jumbled up in your brain.



			
				Space; said:
			
		

> Flash has stole Goku's speed as soon as goku has even begun to process of thinking.





			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> *And what?* he cant hurt him and goku's fighting speed sure aint slow.


There, Jaydaime admits that Flash can steal Goku's speed but then tries to defend himself by saying Flash won't be able to hurt Goku afterwards.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> and the only thing I was admitting to just then is flash is faster then Goku which he is.


Common sense to victory.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 2, 2006)

> ^^flash could jump and steal his speed faster then goku could even be aware of it happening,and besides unless goku starts out in the air in this fight,which he doesnt he wont get up there anyways.



Goku actually has a fast reaction time, Kamehameha reached the earth in about light speed and he can pretty much dodge them by after the first tourny. Also if Flash jumped in the air, he can't really fly and is less mobile he probably wouldn't die as he could slow down the rate he falls but he would still hurt himself.


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Anyway if Goku gets in the air how will the Flash steal his speed, doesn't he need contact to do so?


You're jumping the gun there.

Wouldn't goku have to think about jumping and then lift his feet off the ground to do so? Too slow.

Flash is just a broken character.


----------



## Orion (Dec 2, 2006)

^^not a single beam in dbz has ever gone lightspeed were are pulling this shit out of,and goku doesnt have reaction speed fast enough to not get tagged by a ftl person.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 2, 2006)

> ^^not a single beam in dbz has ever gone lightspeed were are pulling this shit out of,and goku doesnt have reaction speed fast enough to not get tagged by a ftl person.



Piccollo blew up the moon with his blast, the moon is about 278,000km away.

Roshi blew up the moon.

Each of these blasts reached the moon, for me I think they took about a second which makes them faster than light.


----------



## Orion (Dec 2, 2006)

they took longer then a second buddy,and every other beam in db history has been way slower then the speed of light,they take a few seconds to get to their target,or when they get deflected it takes a few second to blow up from hitting the ground they are nowhere neat lightspeed.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 2, 2006)

> they took longer then a second buddy,and every other beam in db history has been way slower then the speed of light,they take a few seconds to get to their target,or when they get deflected it takes a few second to blow up from hitting the ground they are nowhere neat lightspeed.



Because we see things from their eyes. Anyway I am holding a convo on the phone so I can't really deal with the long post and crap gonna end the post here.


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

gunners said:


> Piccollo blew up the moon with his blast, the moon is about 278,000km away.
> 
> Roshi blew up the moon.
> 
> Each of these blasts reached the moon, for me I think they took about a second which makes them faster than light.



Don't know about the Piccolo feat, but I'm well aware of the Roshi feat.
The blast probably reached the moon in about a second or two.

And you've yet to respond to my other statements.


----------



## Jay (Dec 2, 2006)

Right I dont plan on arguing all night again with a bunch of comic buff's, so Im gonna answer all your stupid question's the Im off out for the night, and I will probrably be daft enough to answer/argue with you all again tomoz  , when it's well and truley obvious this battle is completely opinion orientated.



> Endless Mike;6189251]First of all, it's arguable that Goku has ever taken an attack head - on that had the power to destroy a planet. Second of all, the Flash can steal his speed, freezing him in place, by simply touching him or getting near him, or he can hit him with an Infinite Mass Punch, which delivers the kinetic impact of a White Dwarf Star (far more massive than the earth). He can vibrate his body through Goku and make him explode into a million pieces, or dump him into the speedforce where he will be trapped forever.


Ive allready proven that alot of Ki attack's even in the early dbz can be strong enougth to destroy planet's go back and read Im not repeating myself. So if goku is tough enough to be able to with stand planet destroying attack's in early dbz, then what about late dbz? just think about it will you, the flash couldn't hurt him and you have no solid proof he could.
This speedsteal that your talking about can flash do this to the light's of thor and gladitor?


> Create a whirlwind to suck him down, or jump up and hit him. He is fast enough to jump to escape velocity IIRC


.
Yeah, lol and a whirlwind will really be strong enought to suck goku in and by the time he doe's it  goku will be ss3, inabit flash.


> Firemind;6189295]DBZ tards will never accept anything


I can say exactly the same about comic boy buff's to. And can I ask a question if you rip dbz so much why did you ever watch it? I know if I was ripping something all the time I wouldn't be a sad enough bastard to watch it, or if I did I would watch a few episode's and say this is shit, never again.


> Endless Mike;6190058]That's if you believe Vegeta, and irregardless of that, it didn't actually hit him, he intercepted it with another ki blast


Your so unbelievably biased, so if somebody in one of your comic's say's something it's completely right according to you and you use that as your point's of view, but if somebody say's something in dbz you say something stupid like prove he was telling the truth, how incredibly biased .
And Vegeta if you want proof that the attack vegeta fired on goku was powerfull enought to destrot the planet even though he stated this himself, but your to stubourn and stupid not to believe it, so can you please tell me how it was posible that vegeta before he even came to earth could destroy planet's a piece of piss with one hand with a ki blast, but his galick gun he fired at full power at goku wasn't?


Space said:


> Jplaya and Jaydaime unadmittingly concede to this battle. Onto the next one.


Do I? where did you get that one from? Ive not been up long I was up till 4.00am if you remember, and it's saturday my day off work so I didn't plan on getting up extra earlier just to have pretty much opinionated argument's with you.


> Space;6192557]Enough of goku's feats.


in other word's it's okay to hear about flash's, who your sticking up for, but when we say something about goku that you have no answer for you ethier  say something stupid because you dont have an answer or wait for for endless mike to answer with his endless completely biased comic buff opinion's. 


> Why wouldn't it work? 400X earth's gravity doesn't do anything to the body INTERNALLY, and Goku's internal body doesn't have any special qualities.


You see now this is idiotic, why on earth would all the outside of his body become competly stronger but all his internal body stay the same? please.. do shut up.


> Goku can't escape from the speedsteal and Jplaya + Jaydaime have admitted it


Have I? stop making shit up!


> It's been implied to be effective on everything short of Superman, aka Mr. "I can sit comfy at the core of the sun and escape from black holes".


And the argument that superman is harder then goku has never been completed, it's completely opinion orientated so dont use that as your fact's.


> Space;6193344]No. It's the Flash vs Goku


Another  once again stupid answer, because you have no answer.
Just wait for mike to answer for you then you have something you can go off from again, like I said.


----------



## Jay (Dec 2, 2006)

Ill answer these quick to.



> Yet I'm still waiting for your answer... what can Goku do to stop Flash? This Flash is faster than the process of thought....and Goku  has no superhuman thinking processes. Before he finishes his thought let alone react, his speed would have been stolen.


If he really want's he could blow up the planet and then instant transmission out of there.


> There, Jaydaime admits that Flash can steal Goku's speed but then tries to defend himself by saying Flash won't be able to hurt Goku afterwards.
> Common sense to victory.


So basically which ever character is faster then the other, the faster character allway's win's.  another stupid post by you.
And I never said the flash could steal his speed I said he was faster.


vlaaad12345 said:


> ^^not a single beam in dbz has ever gone lightspeed were are pulling this shit out of,and goku doesnt have reaction speed fast enough to not get tagged by a ftl person.


how do you no goku cant go ftl? go back about 4 page's and read my post about speed and tell me what you think?


vlaaad12345 said:


> they took longer then a second buddy,and every other beam in db history has been way slower then the speed of light,they take a few seconds to get to their target,or when they get deflected it takes a few second to blow up from hitting the ground they are nowhere neat lightspeed.


it took a second, and none of the dbz stats are really clear because they dont talk about it like they do in marvel/dc, so that's why AT (the author) quite clearly leave's it for the fan's to decide, so that's the thing YOU dont no how fast they can really go.


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Right I dont plan on arguing all night again with a bunch of comic buff's, so Im gonna answer all your stupid question's the Im *off out for the night*, and I will probrably be daft enough to answer/argue with you all again tomoz  , when it's well and truley obvious this battle is completely opinion orientated.


Wtf? It's fucking morning there. Don't give me that bs.
If you really think about, the hardcore DBZ fans answers are opinion oriented, since you never answer to the questions given and spout in a nonending cycle of trash. 



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Ive allready proven that alot of Ki attack's even in the early dbz can be strong enougth to destroy planet's go back and read Im not repeating myself. So if goku is tough enough to be able to with stand planet destroying attack's in early dbz, then what about late dbz? just think about it will you, the flash couldn't hurt him and you have no solid proof he could.
> This speedsteal that your talking about can flash do this to the light's of thor and gladitor?


What do you think? Have you ever read a comic in your life? Go read Calvin and Hobbes for starters, then work your way up to the big boys.
Thor is hundreds of times faster than the speed of light, and Mljnor is faster than Flash.
.


			
				jaydaime said:
			
		

> Yeah, lol and a whirlwind will really be strong enought to suck goku in and by the time he doe's it  goku will be ss3, inabit flash.


If you've actually been reading, this statement is totally jumping the gun. Goku wouldn't have time to finish his thinking, let alone jump in the air at a high enough height for Flash not to reach  him.



			
				jaydaime said:
			
		

> I can say exactly the same about comic boy buff's to. And can I ask a question if you rip dbz so much why did you ever watch it? I know if I was ripping something all the time I wouldn't be a sad enough bastard to watch it, or if I did I would watch a few episode's and say this is shit, never again.


Hope you're not calling me a comic boy buff, I probably don't know more than the average guy. 
I like Dragonball, and it was humerous at times with a nice adventure in it.



			
				jaydaime said:
			
		

> Do I? where did you get that one from? Ive not been up long I was up till 4.00am if you remember, and it's saturday my day off work so I didn't plan on getting up extra earlier just to have pretty much opinionated argument's with you.


But you did.



			
				jaydaime said:
			
		

> in other word's it's okay to hear about flash's, who your sticking up for, but when we say something about goku that you have no answer for you ethier  say something stupid because you dont have an answer or wait for for endless mike to answer with his endless completely biased comic buff opinion's.


Unless you've been reading the past 5 pages, stop getting all angry when you've overlooked something and then going uncontrollably mentally unstable.
I don't believe ANY sorts of feats would be able to resolve a big argument.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> You see now this is idiotic, why on earth would all the outside of his body become competly stronger but all his internal body stay the same? please.. do shut up.


So I suppose Goku's molecules are 400X stronger now. Wow, didn't know physics worked like that. 
I would say you probably have small knowledge of physics, but I'm afraid of Albert Einstein would come out of his grave and stab me in the back for using the words "physics" and "Jaydaime" in the same sentence.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Have I? stop making shit up!


You've said Flash was faster, and don't say you haven't. If Flash is faster, how the fuck can Gokku win? This is obviously a battle of speed.




			
				jaydaime said:
			
		

> Another  once again stupid answer, because you have no answer.
> Just wait for mike to answer for you then you have something you can go off from again, like I said.


Look, that was just a pun intended statement. You don't have to go all flipping bipolar on me. Do you have some kind of crappy social life?


----------



## Jay (Dec 2, 2006)

> =Space;6194384]Wtf? It's fucking morning there. Don't give me that bs.
> If you really think about, the hardcore DBZ fans answers are opinion oriented, since you never answer to the questions given and spout in a nonending cycle of trash.


I live in England you fucking plank!.
And it's 6.30pm here fool, so get your fact's straight first.
Anyway seeya.


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## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Space said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's got to be the most laughable comment ever made in the history of Western Civilization.

YEAH LIKE UHH FLASH IS JUST GOINT TO SIT AROUND WHILE GOKU TAKES 10 SECONDS TO THINK ABOUT KILLING FLASH, JUMP IN THE AIR, AND CHARGE A BLAST BIG ENOUGH TO KILL THE PLANET. 

AND THEN HE'S GOING TO IT TO AN UNKNOWN PLANET WITH ABSOLUTE *ZERO* KI SIGNAL. 

I'm sure Flash would let goku win and let his entire universe be destroyed.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Right I dont plan on arguing all night again with a bunch of comic buff's, so Im gonna answer all your stupid question's the Im off out for the night, and I will probrably be daft enough to answer/argue with you all again tomoz  , when it's well and truley obvious this battle is completely opinion orientated.



Troll....



> Ive allready proven that alot of Ki attack's even in the early dbz can be strong enougth to destroy planet's go back and read Im not repeating myself. So if goku is tough enough to be able to with stand planet destroying attack's in early dbz, then what about late dbz?



Except he's never been hit by one head - on....



> just think about it will you, the flash couldn't hurt him and you have no solid proof he could.
> This speedsteal that your talking about can flash do this to the light's of thor and gladitor?



Thor and Gladiator are from Marvel. Flash is from DC. You're just trolling now.



> Yeah, lol and a whirlwind will really be strong enought to suck goku in and by the time he doe's it  goku will be ss3, inabit flash.



Of course it will, considering it will happen faster than he can even think. You have no idea how fast the Flash is.



> Your so unbelievably biased, so if somebody in one of your comic's say's something it's completely right according to you and you use that as your point's of view, but if somebody say's something in dbz you say something stupid like prove he was telling the truth, how incredibly biased



I don't believe Darkseid is omnipotent.

There goes your theory down the drain.



> And Vegeta if you want proof that the attack vegeta fired on goku was powerfull enought to destrot the planet even though he stated this himself, but your to stubourn and stupid not to believe it, so can you please tell me how it was posible that vegeta before he even came to earth could destroy planet's a piece of piss with one hand with a ki blast, but his galick gun he fired at full power at goku wasn't?



Because that was a filler episode and non - canon. Never in the manga. 



> And the argument that superman is harder then goku has never been completed, it's completely opinion orientated so dont use that as your fact's.



Except for the fact that Superman's durability feats outclass Goku's by far....


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

gunners said:


> Piccollo blew up the moon with his blast, the moon is about 278,000km away.
> 
> Roshi blew up the moon.
> 
> Each of these blasts reached the moon, for me I think they took about a second which makes them faster than light.



For the last time, those were outliers. 99.99999999999% of blasts in DBZ travel nowhere near that fast.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> If he really want's he could blow up the planet and then instant transmission out of there.



Except before he can even process a thought to do so, he'll be dead. Not to mention that the Flash is fast enough to outrun the explosion of a planet (he has done so in the past)



> So basically which ever character is faster then the other, the faster character allway's win's. another stupid post by you.
> And I never said the flash could steal his speed I said he was faster.



Considering Flash has so many deadly techniques at hand, yes, it's common sense that Goku loses.



> how do you no goku cant go ftl? go back about 4 page's and read my post about speed and tell me what you think?



I think you're full of shit. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that DBZ characters are anywhere near lightspeed.



> it took a second, and none of the dbz stats are really clear because they dont talk about it like they do in marvel/dc, so that's why AT (the author) quite clearly leave's it for the fan's to decide, so that's the thing YOU dont no how fast they can really go.



If something is unclear, that doesn't mean you can make up any bullshit numbers you want and expect people to think they're correct.


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## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> *For the last time*, those were outliers. 99.99999999999% of blasts in DBZ travel nowhere near that fast.




It most likely will not be the last time.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

Space said:


> It most likely will not be the last time.



So true. I wonder if he realizes that if we use his logic, then Thor is above Celestial level since he got the best of Exitar and Galactus, Superman is above a universal cosmic being since he beat Dominus, Black Adam is above the Spectre, etc.


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## darkviper (Dec 2, 2006)

you should know that no one can beat Goku he can just blow up the earth and win...


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## Phenomenol (Dec 2, 2006)

This thread is daft, the Flash would get owned by Picollo let alone Goku!


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## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

darkviper said:


> you should know that no one can beat Goku he can just blow up the earth and win...



LoL, welcome to Naruto forums.


----------



## ~Shin~ (Dec 2, 2006)

Does millions of times ftl mean anything to u guys?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> This thread is daft, the Flash would get owned by Picollo let alone Goku!



And how is that when he could kill Goku before he neurons in his brain could even fire?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

darkviper said:


> you should know that no one can beat Goku he can just blow up the earth and win...



*sigh*

Not another DBZtard.

You do realize that by the time he can even think of doing anything, Flash would have stolen his speed?

Also Flash can outrun a planetary explosion.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> And how is that when he could kill Goku before he neurons in his brain could even fire?



Your not going to kill a super powered alien who has VAST senes, Goku will easily sense Flash movements and blow up the damn planet.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 2, 2006)

> *sigh*
> 
> Not another DBZtard.
> 
> ...



I think the ''......'' suggested he was saying something cliche and jeering it somewhat.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Your not going to kill a super powered alien who has VAST senes, Goku will easily sense Flash movements and blow up the damn planet.



You don't get it. He won't be able to sense, blow up, think, or do anything before Flash steals his speed, because he is simply too slow. At most DBZ characters are very low relativistic speed, Flash can get near lightspeed easily and even surpass it if he wants to.


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Your not going to kill a super powered alien who has VAST senes, Goku will easily sense Flash movements and blow up the damn planet.



Please understand.

Goku has keen senses, but the senses have to reach his brain and PROCESS.

Do you understand that the Flash is FASTER than that?

Speedsteal + Molecule Vibration = Goku for dinner.

And there's no proof that goku could sense Flash, but I'm not going to get into that right now.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

Next he's going to post something along the lines of

"Flash was tagged by Grodd (ignoring that Flash was talking to Nightwing and not even paying attention to Grodd at the time) therefore anyone faster than Grodd can easily tag him despite the fact he's dodged and defeated people way faster than Grodd"


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> You don't get it. He won't be able to sense, blow up, think, or do anything before Flash steals his speed, because he is simply too slow. At most DBZ characters are very low relativistic speed, Flash can get near lightspeed easily and even surpass it if he wants to.



My God you love to OVERRATE characters that you know nothing about. Flash takes a WHILE to reach lightspeed, Flash can NOT get next to Goku because Goku will sense his movements and simply move to the air and blow up the planet.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> My God you love to OVERRATE characters that you know nothing about. Flash takes a WHILE to reach lightspeed



Less than a second....



> Flash can NOT get next to Goku because Goku will sense his movements and simply move to the air and blow up the planet.



Except Goku is nowhere near fast enough to do so.... there's no solid proof that DBZ characters are even faster than sound across short distances.


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> My God you love to OVERRATE characters that you know nothing about. Flash takes a WHILE to reach lightspeed, Flash can NOT get next to Goku because Goku will sense his movements and simply move to the air and blow up the planet.




Alright. You should know that Flash is faster than thought.

Before you go into your crazed "omg goku is the 1337 pwnage" feats, he has to think about them first. You do realize his thinking is too slow don't you? His process of thinking is no more faster than the farmer with the shotgun.


----------



## konflikti (Dec 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> My God you love to OVERRATE characters that you know nothing about. Flash takes a WHILE to reach lightspeed, Flash can NOT get next to Goku because Goku will sense his movements and simply move to the air and blow up the planet.



Yes. Goku usually runs away from his opponents.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Less than a second....
> 
> 
> 
> Except Goku is nowhere near fast enough to do so.... there's no solid proof that DBZ characters are even faster than sound across short distances.



Nope, it takes longer than that. Flash has to run a long ways for his speed to increase and make his attacks formidable. Goku will EASILY see and sense this coming.

"DBZ characters no faster than sound?" Crappy ass Mr. Popo in Dragonball moved "FASTER than lightning," Goku as a child was trained to do the same thing. Goku will casually dismiss Flash with a planet destroying attack.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Nope, it takes longer than that. Flash has to run a long ways for his speed to increase and make his attacks formidable. Goku will EASILY see and sense this coming.



Bullshit. Flash can reach over 99% lightspeed near instantly, and only a second more to reach lightspeed. He'll be moving too fast even initially for Goku to possibly react to.



> "DBZ characters no faster than sound?" Crappy ass Mr. Popo in Dragonball moved "FASTER than lightning," Goku as a child was trained to do the same thing.



Yep, just like Flipper!



> Goku will casually dismiss Flash with a planet destroying attack.



You expect Flash to just sit there while Goku flies up in the air, powers up a planet - destroying attack, and fires it off? Before Goku can even process a thought he'll be dead.

What you need to understand is that all Flash needs to do is get within a few meters of Goku and then the fight is over. He wins.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Bullshit. Flash can reach over 99% lightspeed near instantly, and only a second more to reach lightspeed. He'll be moving too fast even initially for Goku to possibly react to.
> 
> Yep, just like Flipper!
> 
> ...



Flash can NOT reach lightspeed on a whim it takes him time, or do I need to post where it takes Flash FOUR pages to reach lightspeed against Zum.

Flash can do NOTHING to a guy who is more durable than a planet, Goku does not NEED to powerup a planet destroying blast, he can CASUSALLY shoot a blast no bigger than a tennis ball to shatter a planet.


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

Endless mike, don't respond to him. It seems he only responds when you post.

Phenomenol, you have yet to respond to my statements that I've said to you for 3 times.

How is Goku going to do ANYTHING when Flash speedsteals him before Goku finishes processing his thought?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Flash can NOT reach lightspeed on a whim it takes him time,



Not enough to be significant. Even half lightspeed is enough to mop up. When Flash is only just warming up, he'll be moving a mile for every inch Goku moves.



> or do I need to post where it takes Flash FOUR pages to reach lightspeed against Zum.



Because he wasn't aiming to go to full speed right away.... besides, he's gotten stronger since then.



> Flash can do NOTHING to a guy who is more durable than a planet



That's funny, since he's beaten multiple guys like that.

And Goku is not more durable than a planet.... that's more of your bullshit.



> Goku does not NEED to powerup a planet destroying blast, he can CASUSALLY shoot a blast no bigger than a tennis ball to shatter a planet.



You're getting Goku confused with non - canon Brolly. Every "Planet - destroying" blast in DBZ (with the exception of one by Kid Buu) took a significant amount of time to power up. They always point out when a blast is supposedly able to destroy a planet like it's a big deal.

Flash simply needs to get within a few meters of Goku and his speed is gone, frozen, and Flash wins. Goku will not even be aware of Flash's powers, he would never start a fight by using your tactic. Even if he did, he would perhaps be two inches in the air by the time Flash reached him and stole his speed.

Please, take your idiotic DBZ wanktarded fanwhorism trolling biased bullshit somewhere else, we were just finally putting this thread to rest.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Not enough to be significant. Even half lightspeed is enough to mop up. When Flash is only just warming up, he'll be moving a mile for every inch Goku moves. Because he wasn't aiming to go to full speed right away.... besides, he's gotten stronger since then.That's funny, since he's beaten multiple guys like that. And Goku is not more durable than a planet.... that's more of your bullshit.



Your chatting alot of garbage. first you say that he can go lightspeed "instantly" now you say he can go half the speed of light..... You are just speculating. I am posting facts which include Flash taking miles to even go Superspeed to even hurt his opponents. Flash had to do this against a low level being in Gorilla Grodd.



> You're getting Goku confused with non - canon Brolly. Every "Planet - destroying" blast in DBZ (with the exception of one by Kid Buu) took a significant amount of time to power up. They always point out when a blast is supposedly able to destroy a planet like it's a big deal. Flash simply needs to get within a few meters of Goku and his speed is gone, frozen, and Flash wins. Goku will not even be aware of Flash's powers, he would never start a fight by using your tactic. Even if he did, he would perhaps be two inches in the air by the time Flash reached him and stole his speed.
> 
> Please, take your idiotic DBZ wanktarded fanwhorism trolling biased bullshit somewhere else, we were just finally putting this thread to rest.



Kid Buu easily put out a planet destroying attack and Vegeta easily puts his own planet destroying attack out to repell kid buu's blast. Flash won't be able to touch Goku who has VAST senses and can tagg the Flash just as easily as Mongul did. One punch from Goku and the Flash turns into a smere on the family carpet.


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Not enough to be significant. *Even* half lightspeed is enough to mop up. When Flash is only just warming up, he'll be moving a mile for every inch Goku moves.



You're getting his statement jumbled up in your brain, Phenomenol. Sounds familiar


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Your chatting alot of garbage. first you say that he can go lightspeed "instantly" now you say he can go half the speed of light.....



Strawman. I said he can get to lightspeed "easily".



> You are just speculating. I am posting facts which include Flash taking miles to even go Superspeed to even hurt his opponents.



He goes miles in nanoseconds....



> Flash had to do this against a low level being in Gorilla Grodd.



Grodd uses offensive telepathy....



> Kid Buu easily put out a planet destroying attack and Vegeta easily puts his own planet destroying attack out to repell kid buu's blast.



Bullshit. There is no evidence that Vegeta's deflection was planet - destroying, DBZ ki blasts act more like bombs than actual energy beams, you don't need as much energy as a ki blast contains to deflect it.



> Flash won't be able to touch Goku who has VAST senses and can tagg the Flash just as easily as Mongul did.



You keep saying this, "VAST senses", like it's your new buzzword or something. However, it's not more than unquantified bullshit.

Let's analyze these "VAST senses"

When concentrating and knowing what to look for, he can sense strong and distinct ki signatures across the universe. However he can't sense a ki signature if it is too far away in space (New Namek).

He can sense beings in the afterlife, which is apparently easier than sensing them too far away in space.

He can sense beings around him, but if they're moving too fast, even if they have huge ki, he loses track of them.

Flash, who has only base human ki, and moves many orders of magnitude faster than any DBZ character, would never be sensed by him. Even if he was, Goku would be unable to react before Flash stole his speed.

Bringing up low showings is meaningless since you're trying to define the entire character on them.



> One punch from Goku and the Flash turns into a smere on the family carpet.



From Flash's perspective, Goku's fist would be moving in slow motion, and he could vibrate through it and make his arm explode, or just steal his speed, or use his speedforce barrier to protect himself (he's taken much stronger hits).

Let me put it simply:

To Flash, Goku is nothing more than a living STATUE who he can destroy at his mercy.

Flash is a confirmed FTL'er, Goku's speed is nowhere near that.


----------



## blueradio (Dec 2, 2006)

Goku is also fast. And the Flash can only run./
What I'm wondering is. Can the Flash like control time by running? If he could stop time and beat the shit of Goku than it'd be The Flash. Also what if The Flash ran through Goku!? Then it would be the Flash in a sinch. I don't know tough call.


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

Also, Flash can vibrate straight through ki based attacks. 

Flash would definitely be able to stop a planet buster produced by goku. It would take too much time for Goku to charge and fire. Planet busters are out of the question for him.

Flash can vibrate through Goku's entire body which is not durable enough, vibrate Goku's molecules so he explodes into a million pieces, and all under a second. Even if by a small chance Flash overlooks something and goku does something unexpected in the first place, Flash can always just go back in time to when the battle starts so he knows exactly how to fuck Goku up.

Needless to say none of those situations will go through because Flash would have easily stolen 100% of Goku's speed before he can crack a smile or shred a tear from his eyes making him stiller than a rock on the ground. Goku's connection from his brain to the rest of his body will never be met.

With Goku moving like a snail in Flash's point of view, Flash can maneuver around him in so many ways infinite mass punch him at lightspeeds shredding Goku to oblivion.
(Using this technique, he can play basketgokuball or volleygokuball or tennisgokuball, we can give you the choice of the sport).


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

Powers:

Superspeed
Wally West is the Fastest Man Alive, and so far as is known, the Fastest Man Ever. He is capable of moving at just under the speed of light, and in truth his top speed, if he has one, is hard to guage since once he goes beyond lightspeed, he enters the Speed Force. As far as is known Wally is the only speedster to enter the Speed Force entirely and re-emerge, which helps account for his incredible gifts. His connection he has with the Speed Force is stronger than any known person has ever attained. It's far more than enough to allow Wally West to run up sheer or even upside-down surfaces to defy gravity, or to allow him to run over liquids as if they were as firm as concrete. He can catch bullets out of the air as if they were stationary, and could quite probably dodge lasers.

 Molecular control
 The gifts of the Speed Force include the ability to control every molecule of Wally's body to where they can be vibrated and made to phase through solid matter. These days, doing so can charge whatever he phases through with kinetic energy and cause that matter to explode violently. This is both a good and bad thing, in that he can use the ability to charge matter to explode as a weapon, but in doing so he harms whatever he phases through. Since the Flash's recent increase in speed, his control has been enhanced to where he may choose either to kinetically charge what he vibrates through, or not do so and pass through solid matter harmlessly. Another facet of his molecular control is that Wally can vibrate himself to where his body becomes invisible and light just passes through it. Yet another ability related to his vibrational molecular control is that Wally can attune his ears and eyes to hear and see the vibrations of radio waves or other forms of light, thereby tuning into any frequencies he cares to listen to or see just as if they were normal sound and light. Through the control of his vibrations, he is even able to heat up substances that he touches or impart heat energy into an object on contact.

 Turbocharged brain
 When Wally moves into superspeed his perceptions change radically and the world appears to move by at a snail's pace. If he's going fast enough, the world even seems to have frozen. This altering of perception is vital in order for Wally to function at the extreme speeds that he can reach, and allows him to manage his movements and environment with awareness and accuracy. It's also a power that he can activate without physically moving any faster, throwing his thought processes into overdrive to where his perceptions and thoughts fire off faster than the processes of a supercomputer. He can, if he chooses, read a book (a big one like Lord of the Rings) in less than a second with full comprehension and the only speed motion required being the turning of the pages.

 Speed force aura
 When moving at superspeed, Wally West is able to surround himself with an aura of Speed Force Energy. It extends out from his body enough to cover objects or even persons carried by him, and allows him to treat them as extensions of his person for purposes of speed powers. The aura also protects Wally from the effects of hitting stationary objects (so instead of turning to hamburger he'd just hit as if he were running normally and ran into it) and keeps his passing from causing sonic booms and massive collateral damage everywhere he goes at superspeed. The aura can be controlled to where such sonic booms and effects on the environment are allowed, however.

 Kinetic energy control
 Wally West is able to both steal and give energy of motion from and to an object. He can take the velocity out of a moving object and cause it to stand still as well as charge an object with motion and propel it into possibly ridiculous amounts of speed. This is only possible in either case with objects that happen to be or are caught in Wally's wake as he passes or moves over them. In a sense it's really contact and proximity to his Speed Force Aura that enables him to add to or take away from the velocity of other objects, and he can either drag objects behind him at his speed or move past an already-moving object and take its speed away to leave it standing motionless behind.

 Speed tricks
 Among the various tricks that Wally can perform with his powers are:

 The Snap - Where through manipulation of the Speed Force Aura and a superspeed motion (often a snap of the fingers or clap of the hands) Wally causes a deafening and highly damaging sonic boom that can knock down walls and stun opponents.

 Cyclones - Where through moving his limbs in various fashions the Flash may cause extreme winds that can blow about objects with force similar to a tornado.

 Dismantling - Where through a simple series of appropriate motion Wally just dissects things like cars, weapons, furniture, down to the limit of his understanding of how to take apart a given device or object. That's assuming he wants it to be able to work when reassembled...

 Bombs - Where through taking advantage of the explosive kinetic charge that Wally endows an object by phasing through it, he intentionally charges things to explode in order to use them as weapons. They can be as simple as walls or trees, or as clever as throwing a rock without opening his fist and letting that rock phase through his fingers, charged to explode as it hurtles toward its intended target.

 Vibro Hands - Where Wally can saw through solid objects with his hands (as an example) by vibrating his body and basically blasting his way through said object on contact.

 Hot Touch - Where through vibrational control, Wally can heat up an object as much or as little as he likes just by touching it and concentrating on the energy he imparts to it.

 Speed force suit
 Through his control of Speed Force Energy, Wally is able to form a suit around his body in the approximate shape and color of his original Flash suit he inherited from Barry, only made of pure Speed Energy. This suit is more convenient than the old ring-pop-out suit, and it is capable of acting like armor to absorb great amounts of kinetic energy.

 Healing
 Wally is able to use the Speed Force in order to speed up the healing of injuries to himself. In essence, he is able to heal minor cuts, abrasions, and bruises in a matter of minutes. More major or deep wounds might take hours. The greatest limit to this ability are broken bones, as they take much longer to heal...perhaps days or weeks in spite of his powers of speed and healing.

 Sustenance
 Through his link with the Speed Force, Wally is able to draw sustenance from that energy field that allows his body to channel Speed Force Energy without having to stuff his body with carbs and food to keep going. It also provides him with the needed energy to keep running and running even if it's all the way around the globe.

 Time travel
 Wally West can travel through time in three ways:

 Speed Force - By reaching the Speed Force and bouncing off of the barrier at the edge of it, Wally will often skip forward or back in time unpredictably. Alternately he can cross that barrier and enter the Speed Force entirely, then exit to any possible point in history. Unfortunately by this method the Speed Force has a way of controlling when he comes out and ends up. About his best bet in doing this is to run right along the Speed Force wall. Doing so, Wally can read the different eras that he passes up and just stop at the one he wants. So far, Wally is the only speedster that can reliably perform this mode of time travel.

 Temporal Vibrations - By attuning his physical vibrations to those of another timeframe, Wally can basically fade into another time/dimension. The only trouble doing this is that he doesn't necessarily know the proper vibration for a given time in a given dimension, and just experimenting with different vibrations to see where you end up is about as smart as stabbing yourself in the brain with a needle to see what cool things you can make your leg do.

 Cosmic Treadmill - By using this invention of Barry Allen's, Wally has only to get on the treadmill, set it to the time and place he wants to go, and run to power it. It's been the cause of a few excellent adventures, as well as some bogus journeys.

 Speed force attunement
 Because of his link with the Speed Force, Wally West is able to commune with it and sense and track any speedster, no matter when or where they are. It's a subtle but very useful aspect of his power.

 Quick formula
 Wally knows the speed formula which gave Johnny and Jesse Quick their speed. He doesn't use it often, and the first time was to give him an extra boost on top of his natural superspeed and to help him reach the Speed Force. Since then, his natural speed has been adequate to get there alone, so he's never had to use it. He still knows the formula, however, and by reciting the equation "3x2(9yz)4a" and conceptualizing the fourth dimensional construct that goes with it, Wally can stack the added superspeed of the Quick's on top of his own. A side effect of when he does this is that for a brief moment, time is frozen for everyone except Wally during which the added link to the Speed Force seems to interfere with his natural one, or perhaps elbows it aside for a bit in order to provide its form of superspeed. The effect is unnoticeable to anyone in the normal timestream, however, and as soon as the "time-hiccup" or whatever one calls it passes, Wally has extra superspeed. This added link to the Speed Force neither supercedes nor interferes with his natural link besides that momentary timefreeze, and it allows him all of the normal powers that he normally has with his own superspeed.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Strawman. I said he can get to lightspeed "easily".He goes miles in nanoseconds....Grodd uses offensive telepathy....



Well your speculating on a character you know NOTHING about because he can NOT go lightspeed easily. It takes Flash time to charge up and he strains to get lightspeed (ala speedforce). Grodd is a low level being...oh and Flash's speed was NOT faster than Grodd's thought process. 



> Bullshit. There is no evidence that Vegeta's deflection was planet - destroying, DBZ ki blasts act more like bombs than actual energy beams, you don't need as much energy as a ki blast contains to deflect it.You keep saying this, "VAST senses", like it's your new buzzword or something. However, it's not more than unquantified bullshit.Let's analyze these "VAST senses"When concentrating and knowing what to look for, he can sense strong and distinct ki signatures across the universe. However he can't sense a ki signature if it is too far away in space (New Namek). He can sense beings in the afterlife, which is apparently easier than sensing them too far away in space.He can sense beings around him, but if they're moving too fast, even if they have huge ki, he loses track of them. Flash, who has only base human ki, and moves many orders of magnitude faster than any DBZ character, would never be sensed by him. Even if he was, Goku would be unable to react before Flash stole his speed. Bringing up low showings is meaningless since you're trying to define the entire character on them.



In DBZ it has always been a rule that if the characters powers are not equal or greater the blast has no shot of even competing. If the Ki blast is equal than it was planet destroying. Goku can sense beings lightyears....and even dimensions away! A flash right in front of him will be a walk in the park. 



> From Flash's perspective, Goku's fist would be moving in slow motion, and he could vibrate through it and make his arm explode, or just steal his speed, or use his speedforce barrier to protect himself (he's taken much stronger hits).
> 
> Let me put it simply:
> 
> ...



I wish your lies were true for the Flash because I recall Flash NOT seeing Mongul's attacks in slow motion. Goku can easily destroy the planet and it is over.


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Well your speculating on a character you know NOTHING about because he can NOT go lightspeed easily. It takes Flash time to charge up and he strains to get lightspeed (ala speedforce). Grodd is a low level being...oh and Flash's speed was NOT faster than Grodd's thought process.


Maybe for Jay Garrick.





			
				phenomenol said:
			
		

> In DBZ it has always been a rule that if the characters powers are not equal or greater the blast has no shot of even competing. If the Ki blast is equal than it was planet destroying. Goku can sense beings lightyears....and even dimensions away! A flash right in front of him will be a walk in the park.


Aw man I wish, like your feeble mind, that it were that easy too!
Unfortunately, it has to process in Goku's mind first :amazed and Barry Allen is much faster.



			
				phenomenol said:
			
		

> I wish your lies were true for the Flash because I recall Flash NOT seeing Mongul's attacks in slow motion. Goku can easily destroy the planet and it is over.


Tell us how much time it will take for Goku to even think about the destroying the planet they're on, jumping high enough in the air so Barry couldn't reach him, charge up and release a planet buster.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

Phenomenol, will you just give up already? It's obvious to everyone with at least half a brain that you're just arguing out of stuborn biased fanboyism and idiocy.



Phenomenol said:


> Well your speculating on a character you know NOTHING about because he can NOT go lightspeed easily.



Despite the many times he has done so....



> It takes Flash time to charge up and he strains to get lightspeed (ala speedforce).



Early on.... not in later portrayals.



> Grodd is a low level being...oh and Flash's speed was NOT faster than Grodd's thought process.



Yes, because it's a bit difficult to speedblitz a guy who is projecting an omnidirectional mindfuck at at least lightspeed from an unknown location. 



> In DBZ it has always been a rule that if the characters powers are not equal or greater the blast has no shot of even competing. If the Ki blast is equal than it was planet destroying.



Begging the question. Simply stating something doesn't make it true, retard.



> Goku can sense beings lightyears....and even dimensions away! A flash right in front of him will be a walk in the park.



Yeah, when he concentrates, and knows what to look for, and they have superhuman ki, and they are standing in one place.

He has trouble sensing enemies with large ki when they are right next to him but moving fast. He would never sense Flash, who has only normal human ki (which he can't sense at all without concentrating) and moving trillions of times faster than any DBZ character could ever hope to achieve.



> I wish your lies were true for the Flash because I recall Flash NOT seeing Mongul's attacks in slow motion. Goku can easily destroy the planet and it is over.



You can't define a character only by low - end showings. Besides, Mongul has superspeed, it's one of his powers. He's faster than DBZ characters as well. I'm not even sure of which comic you're referring to either, so I can't make sure you're not hiding information or being dishonest.

The fact remains, Flash can move, percieve, react, and fight at many times FTL. Goku can't. Flash can beat Goku just by entering his area. Goku will not even be able to think before Flash steals his speed. Even if by some miracle he was able to fly up in the air with his slow speed, spend 30 seconds powering up a planet destroying blast, and destroy the planet, Flash could just outrun the explosion, or go back in time to before the planet exploded and steal his speed.

Goku has no chance whatsoever. Accept it, and STFU.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 2, 2006)

Also, if you want to play this game:

Goku was tagged by Uub, who has no speed feats whatsoever, so therefore, according to your logic, he can be tagged by anyone.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 2, 2006)

Endless mike said:
			
		

> Phenomenol, will you just give up already? It's obvious to everyone with at least half a brain that you're just arguing out of stuborn biased fanboyism and idiocy. Despite the many times he has done so....Early on.... not in later portrayals. Yes, because it's a bit difficult to speedblitz a guy who is projecting an omnidirectional mindfuck at at least lightspeed from an unknown location.



"Fanboyism?".... I am not the one giving and making up things for Flash. Flash in the PAST and to this day takes time and STRAINS to reach light (speedforce). Grodd was right in front of the Flash when he mind raped Flash!... then Grodd even proceeds to punch the Flash. Oh yeah...that's faster than thought reflexes. 



> Yeah, when he concentrates, and knows what to look for, and they have superhuman ki, and they are standing in one place. He has trouble sensing enemies with large ki when they are right next to him but moving fast. He would never sense Flash, who has only normal human ki (which he can't sense at all without concentrating) and moving trillions of times faster than any DBZ character could ever hope to achieve.



Goku does NOT need to concentrate to sense.... Goku will easily sense a Flash right in front of him and that means trouble for Flash.



> You can't define a character only by low - end showings. Besides, Mongul has superspeed, it's one of his powers. He's faster than DBZ characters as well. I'm not even sure of which comic you're referring to either, so I can't make sure you're not hiding information or being dishonest.The fact remains, Flash can move, percieve, react, and fight at many times FTL. Goku can't. Flash can beat Goku just by entering his area. Goku will not even be able to think before Flash steals his speed. Even if by some miracle he was able to fly up in the air with his slow speed, spend 30 seconds powering up a planet destroying blast, and destroy the planet, Flash could just outrun the explosion, or go back in time to before the planet exploded and steal his speed.
> 
> Goku has no chance whatsoever. Accept it, and STFU.



Flash can NOT fight at faster than light.....you continue to make up things about a character that you know NOTHING about. Flash has been tagged by Grodd, Captain Boomerang he's even tripped over a VINE.... you can NOT tell me he fights at FTL speeds when it takes him to long to reach lightspeed (when he merges with Speedforce) while he is RUNNING. Goku will easily blow the damn planet...... up it is over.



> Also, if you want to play this game:
> 
> Goku was tagged by Uub, who has no speed feats whatsoever, so therefore, according to your logic, he can be tagged by anyone.



Uub is the reincarnation of Majin Buu! the most powerful villain in all of DBZ.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 2, 2006)

from the other thread there has still yet to be a response as to how Goku deals with Flash vibrating through anything he sends his way... although vibrating through ki blast I think is questionable.

...
 Ki blast are fast though...
Cell fired his Kamehameha at Goku who dodged and in the next panel the Kamehameha was in space and quite a distances from earth...
then there are the other previous instances and stuff. 

Actually, I don't think there is a necessity for the ki blast to get inherently faster by that much as the series progress; rather, the character can themselves move so fast the others can't even see the ki blast being fired. Oh shit! So then all you needto do is look at the instances of distance travlled in general from the enviromental perpective for speed. So, the ki blast are then actually all around Master Roshi/Piccolo. Although if one is being generous you could suppose they are twice as fast.

Imo, I have figured out ki blast speed!!!!!!!


----------



## Kai (Dec 2, 2006)

Under Powers and Abilities
Flash is faster than the speed of thought.


----------



## Rudox (Dec 3, 2006)

Goku would just IT to a random spot on Earth and blow it up. Flash won't be able to find him before it's too late.


----------



## Gohan (Dec 3, 2006)

im just curious Endless Mike, how did you come up with SSJ3 Goku's speed???


----------



## Suzumebachi (Dec 3, 2006)

> Flash won't be able to find him before it's too late.



Yes. He would. Not that Goku'd ever get the chance to IT anyways.


----------



## Rudox (Dec 3, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:


> Yes. He would. Not that Goku'd ever get the chance to IT anyways.



Yeah I guess if they start the fight face to face Flash might be able to interrupt him. If they're not within visual range from the start Goku wins easy.


----------



## Kai (Dec 3, 2006)

Rudox said:


> Goku would just IT to a random spot on Earth and blow it up. Flash won't be able to find him before it's too late.



*sigh* This is starting to get extremely irritating.

Flash would kill Goku before he even produced a thought. And it's fact.

Also, if Goku wanted to destroy the planet, he would have to charge it up and fire. Flash would just go back in time to when the fight started. Easy.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 3, 2006)

why is this thread still going. Only flash dickriders think he can win


----------



## Orion (Dec 3, 2006)

^^coming from the person who would suck goku's cock given the chance.


----------



## Kai (Dec 3, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> why is this thread still going. Only flash dickriders think he can win



We presented a point in how Flash would win and you couldn't debate against it. It's that simple.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 3, 2006)

Space said:


> We presented a point in how Flash would win and you couldn't debate against it. It's that simple.



and it was quickly debunked by phenom. We presented evidence of goku winning and idiots had no argument of than garbage chatter


----------



## Kai (Dec 3, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> and it was quickly debunked by phenom. We presented evidence of goku winning and idiots had no argument of than garbage chatter



Too bad Phenom never replied to me even once. 

What can Goku do if Flash is faster than Goku's thinking? He loses horribly.


----------



## Jay (Dec 3, 2006)

Just a few question's because like I said I watch justice league and stuff but I dont really read comic's that much.
doe's flash have the strength to be able to destroy planet's?
and can flash fight in light speed? and if so how long doe's it take? because Ive seen in a episode of justice league where the flash is running constantly around the earth I think in light speed Im not sure it doesn't say but I think it's the one where there fighting the justice lord's or it might be where superman is going to kill lex luthor and become a justice lord but he doesn't. Anyway Ive never seen him fight in light combat speed's nevermind that Ive never seen him fight as fast as what goku can, so how do you work out that he can take goku's speed when goku is super fast himself, and I asked a question earlier if the flash could speedsteal the like's of thor and gladitor but didn't get a decent reply even though this is a battledome so Ill ask if he can do it to superman who Ive also never seen fight in light speed? and if he cant do it to superman then why should he be able to do it to goku who's combat speed is incredibly fast if not faster then superman's?
And if flash doesn't have enough strength to destroy a planet then how can he hurt goku? and dont say something stupid like goku cant take planet destroying attack's because I allready proved it on my earlier post's but I will give some quick example's again.
If Nappa can take Tien's tri beam at full power in early dbz which could destroy a planet or he could take gohan's super mesenko blast which is also capable of destroying a planet, and they are because there a hell of alot stronger then master roshi who in db is no way near as powerful as tien or gohan but he could destroy the moon so Im 100% sure goku could take these hit's if nappa can, and goku in late dbz is how many time's harder? and if you argue against him being not you will just make yourself look really stupid when it's a fact he can just by judging roshi's kamehameha blast in plain old dragonball nevermind the other's.
So anyway how can flash win if he cant hurt him and who's to say flash's combat speed is faster then goku, and even if it is he will need time to get to that speed wherea's goku can go super fast straight away and all he has to do is hit the flash the once.


----------



## Jay (Dec 3, 2006)

Space said:


> Under Powers and Abilities
> Flash is faster than the speed of thought.



And I used wikipedia to back up some fact's on dbz, but I got quoted by endless mike and chum's that wikipedia is a tertiary source so shouldn't be valid.
Lol it's funny the way they dont say nothing to you though.


----------



## Kai (Dec 3, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Just a few question's because like I said I watch justice league and stuff but I dont really read comic's that much. doe's flash have the strength to be able to destroy planet's?
> and can flash fight in light speed? and if so how long doe's it take?



I don't read comics that much either.
From what I know, I don't think Flash can destroy a planet.
Yes, Flash can fight at light speed and it will probably take a second or a little over to reach that speed.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> because Ive seen in a episode of justice league where the flash is running constantly around the earth I think in light speed Im not sure it doesn't say but I think it's the one where there fighting the justice lord's or it might be where superman is going to kill lex luthor and become a justice lord but he doesn't.


Comic Flash > Animated Flash



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Anyway Ive never seen him fight in light combat speed's nevermind that Ive never seen him fight as fast as what goku can, so how do you work out that he can take goku's speed when goku is super fast himself, and I asked a question earlier if the flash could speedsteal the like's of thor and gladitor but didn't get a decent reply even though this is a battledome


Ah, you've never seen Flash fight, yet you think Goku is faster. That makes total sense.  

Even you admitted that Flash is faster than Goku. Don't deny it.

Wtf? I guess my hypothesis of you skipping over what people say is fact.
I already replied to you. Thor is hundreds of times faster than light and Mljonir is still faster than Flash.




			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> so Ill ask if he can do it to superman who Ive also never seen fight in light speed? and if he cant do it to superman then why should he be able to do it to goku who's combat speed is incredibly fast if not faster then superman's?


Because Superman's speed is extremely close to that of the Flash's. They had a race and it was inconclusive, but I think it was Wally west(Fastest of the Flash's which is the one we're using in this battle) that beat him. 

And YOU'RE the one that hasn't given me a decent reply although I've stated it 10,000 times.

*Flash is faster than thought. How is Goku going to do ANYTHING if he can't finish his thinking first?*



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> And if flash doesn't have enough strength to destroy a planet then how can he hurt goku? and dont say something stupid like goku cant take planet destroying attack's because I allready proved it on my earlier post's but I will give some quick example's again.


Why do you think planet destroying attacks are the only way to end a battle?

And yes, Goku can probably take planet destroying attacks, but that does not mean he's as durable as a planet(as said by Phenomenol).



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> If Nappa can take Tien's tri beam at *full power* in early dbz which could destroy a planet or he could take gohan's super mesenko blast which is also capable of destroying a planet, and they are because there a hell of alot stronger then master roshi who in db is no way near as powerful as tien or gohan but he could destroy the moon so Im 100% sure goku could take these hit's if nappa can,


Excuse me? Full power? You mean the little power he HAD LEFT?
He lost an arm, was losing lots of blood, grueling in pain, and lost most of his ki.
Gohan's super Masenko blast is no where near planet destroying. Don't give me that.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> and goku in late dbz is how many time's harder? and *if you argue against him being not* you will just make yourself look really stupid when it's a fact he can just by judging roshi's kamehameha blast in plain old dragonball nevermind the other's.


For some strange reason, you always say "if you deny it" or "if you argue against Goku that he's not blah blah" when I haven't said anything of the sort once.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> So anyway how can flash win if he cant hurt him and who's to say flash's combat speed is faster then goku, and even if it is he will need time to get to that speed wherea's goku can go super fast straight away and all he has to do is hit the flash the once.


Time? As in nanoseconds?
I think it's fair to say that you can outrule SSJ3 in this fight. That's much too slow.
1. Flash can just go back in time to when the battle starts. Goku has no idea what to do.
2. Flash can make himself invisible so Goku will have absolutely no clue where Flash is. As soon as he begins to turn his head a single centimeter, he would have his speed stolen and his body vibrated to pieces. Don't say the he can sense Flash because he can't. Flash doesn't have any Ki, he's not a Dragonball character.
3. Goku still has to think first too  
4. Flash can make a shield up instantly that would block all Goku's physical attacks.
5. Goku would take too much time to charge a planet buster and fire it, Flash can go back in time or steal his speed during that time.


----------



## Kai (Dec 3, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> And I used wikipedia to back up some fact's on dbz, but I got quoted by endless mike and chum's that wikipedia is a tertiary source so shouldn't be valid.
> Lol it's funny the way they dont say nothing to you though.



Eh for me I think wikipedia is a valuable source of information. It's just that it's open for editing but most things like this aren't edited by stupid 10 year olds.


----------



## atom (Dec 3, 2006)

This fight is biased. Extremely to begin with. Goku would automatically win.


Instanteous >>^Infinity>> Any Speed

It doesn't matter how fast Flash is, Instant Transmission will always get Goku to the spot faster. Also, don't give me that "He has to think" crap. Unless you prove that to use it he has to think about it. You don't have to think about walking. Or running. Why would he have to think about that?


Also, This is "THE Flash" Not "Kid Flash" And "THE Flash's" top speed is
700 mph (1127 km/h). Not "50 Times faster the speed of light". Goku rapes The Flash.


----------



## Kai (Dec 3, 2006)

Bijuukage said:


> This fight is biased. Extremely to begin with. Goku would automatically win.


You assume alot don't you? I have nothing against Dragonball.



			
				Bijuukage said:
			
		

> Instanteous >>^Infinity>> Any Speed


Thanks for the lesson college professor.



			
				bijuukage said:
			
		

> It doesn't matter how fast Flash is, Instant Transmission will always get Goku to the spot faster. Also, don't give me that "He has to think" crap. Unless you prove that to use it he has to think about it. You don't have to think about walking. Or running. Why would he have to think about that?


Your brain sends signals to the rest of your body. Your legs and arms don't have minds of their own. Flash has been proven to be faster then the time it takes for the brain to send signals to the rest of the body.




			
				bijuukage said:
			
		

> Also, This is "THE Flash" Not "Kid Flash" And "THE Flash's" top speed is
> 700 mph (1127 km/h). Not "50 Times faster the speed of light". Goku rapes The Flash.


Thanks for stating the obvious bull. If you read the first page, this is WALLY WEST and he surpasses the speed of light to hell.

Couple things about your godly IT. Although it's instant,
1. Goku has to get a Ki signal from somewhere. No ki signal, IT is useless.
2. Goku will have to put 2 fingers to his head. Too slow. Seriously.


----------



## atom (Dec 3, 2006)

> You assume alot don't you? I have nothing against Dragonball.


Ok...



> Instanteous >>^Infinity>> Any Speed


Your welcome?



> Your brain sends signals to the rest of your body. Your legs and arms don't have minds of their own. Flash has been proven to be faster then the time it takes for the brain to send signals to the rest of the body.


Any Proof?



> Thanks for stating the obvious bull. If you read the first page, this is WALLY WEST and he surpasses the speed of light to hell.
> 
> Couple things about your godly IT. Although it's instant,
> 1. Goku has to get a Ki signal from somewhere. No ki signal, IT is useless
> 2. Goku will have to put 2 fingers to his head. Too slow. Seriously.


Wall West as The Flash. Not Wally West as Kid Flash which is much faster.
(Hence the title, "The Flash" and not "Kid Flash")
1. No he doesn't.(There are times where he went somwehere without Ki.)
2. No he doesn't (There are times that he doesn't have to, and he hasn't)



Did you even read the Dragonball Theory. Curbstomp.


----------



## Jay (Dec 3, 2006)

Space said:


> I don't read comics that much either.
> From what I know, I don't think Flash can destroy a planet.
> Yes, Flash can fight at light speed and it will probably take a second or a little over to reach that speed.
> 
> ...


Who say's I havn't seen flash fight?


> Even you admitted that Flash is faster than Goku. Don't deny it.


I noticed you keep saying that Im denying that when Im not, but I didn't say anything about combat speed now did I?


> Wtf? I guess my hypothesis of you skipping over what people say is fact.
> I already replied to you. Thor is hundreds of times faster than light and Mljonir is still faster than Flash.


My apoligie's I must of skipped your post I was to busy reading endless mike's answer to it(Which he didn't have an answer for) because he know's  more about dc/marvel comic's wherea's you said you didn't


> Because Superman's speed is extremely close to that of the Flash's. They had a race and it was inconclusive, but I think it was Wally west(Fastest of the Flash's which is the one we're using in this battle) that beat him.
> And YOU'RE the one that hasn't given me a decent reply although I've stated it 10,000 times.


Dont be dramatic, Flash is faster then a thought according to wikipedia okay that's fine but who say's goku even has to think, just like 1 of his many teacher's mr popo say's clear your mind of everything (or summat like that can't be assed looking it up) and he use's his sense's which are now pretty much automatic once he has cleared his mind which is how he goe's into every battle now since then, so his his defense is extreamly good he is a master martial artist after all, plus flash cant hurt him.


> *Flash is faster than thought. How is Goku going to do ANYTHING if he can't finish his thinking first?*


And how is flash going to hurt him?


> Why do you think planet destroying attacks are the only way to end a battle?
> And yes, Goku can probably take planet destroying attacks, but that does not mean he's as durable as a planet(as said by Phenomenol).


Thankyou you have admited goku can take planet destroying attack's which flash cant do so how can he hurt him this battle is now finally over.


> Excuse me? Full power? You mean the little power he HAD LEFT?
> He lost an arm, was losing lots of blood, grueling in pain, and lost most of his ki.


Gohan's super Masenko blast is no where near planet destroying. Don't give me that.
Tien focused the rest of his power into a full tri-beam, gohan's power level was at 2800 when he fired that mesenko roshi has a power lv of about 160 when he destroyed the moon so dont you give me that.


> For some strange reason, you always say "if you deny it" or "if you argue against Goku that he's not blah blah" when I haven't said anything of the sort once.


When? that's the first time Ive said it, I think your getting me mixed up with somebody else, abit like how you called me a bs yesterday for saying it was night in england when it clearly was  .


> Time? As in nanoseconds?
> I think it's fair to say that you can outrule SSJ3 in this fight. That's much too slow.


 But you or your mate mike said it take's flash a second to go into lightspeed, and I proved to you the otherday that it take's goku a second to go ss3, and dont say it doesn't again when we showed you the proof with the episode and the manga scan's. 


> 1. Flash can just go back in time to when the battle starts. Goku has no idea what to do.


The best martial artist on planet earth I think he will have a good idea what to do dont you.


> 2. Flash can make himself invisible so Goku will have absolutely no clue where Flash is. As soon as he begins to turn his head a single centimeter, he would have his speed stolen and his body vibrated to pieces. Don't say the he can sense Flash because he can't. Flash doesn't have any Ki, he's not a Dragonball character.


And that's your opinion that flash could do that to goku not a solid fact and like you allready admited flash cant hurt goku so it doesn't matter (and you admited that goku can withstand planet destroying attack's which flash cant do)


> 3. Goku still has to think first too


aout what exactly flash cant hurt him 


> 4. Flash can make a shield up instantly that would block all Goku's physical attacks.


Lol and Im sure goku's attack's which are strong enough to destroy planet's couldn't get through  


> 5. Goku would take too much time to charge a planet buster and fire it, Flash can go back in time or steal his speed during that time.


Yeah he can go back in time and exactly the same shit will happen again.

*Sorry but you allready submitted in this argument when you admited goku can withstand planet destroying attack's which the flash ( a normal human with super speed) cant dish out, it's over*


----------



## Jay (Dec 3, 2006)

Space said:


> I don't read comics that much either.
> From what I know, I don't think Flash can destroy a planet.
> Yes, Flash can fight at light speed and it will probably take a second or a little over to reach that speed.
> 
> ...


Who say's I havn't seen flash fight?


> Even you admitted that Flash is faster than Goku. Don't deny it.


I noticed you keep saying that Im denying that when Im not, but I didn't say anything about combat speed now did I?


> Wtf? I guess my hypothesis of you skipping over what people say is fact.
> I already replied to you. Thor is hundreds of times faster than light and Mljonir is still faster than Flash.


My apoligie's I must of skipped your post I was to busy reading endless mike's answer to it(Which he didn't have an answer for) because he know's  more about dc/marvel comic's wherea's you said you didn't


> Because Superman's speed is extremely close to that of the Flash's. They had a race and it was inconclusive, but I think it was Wally west(Fastest of the Flash's which is the one we're using in this battle) that beat him.
> And YOU'RE the one that hasn't given me a decent reply although I've stated it 10,000 times.


Dont be dramatic, Flash is faster then a thought according to wikipedia okay that's fine but who say's goku even has to think, just like 1 of his many teacher's mr popo say's clear your mind of everything (or summat like that can't be assed looking it up) and he use's his sense's which are now pretty much automatic once he has cleared his mind which is how he goe's into every battle now since then, so his his defense is extreamly good he is a master martial artist after all, plus flash cant hurt him.


> *Flash is faster than thought. How is Goku going to do ANYTHING if he can't finish his thinking first?*


And how is flash going to hurt him?


> Why do you think planet destroying attacks are the only way to end a battle?
> And yes, Goku can probably take planet destroying attacks, but that does not mean he's as durable as a planet(as said by Phenomenol).


Thankyou you have admited goku can take planet destroying attack's which flash cant do so how can he hurt him this battle is now finally over.


> Excuse me? Full power? You mean the little power he HAD LEFT?
> He lost an arm, was losing lots of blood, grueling in pain, and lost most of his ki.
> Gohan's super Masenko blast is no where near planet destroying. Don't give me that.


Tien focused the rest of his power into a full tri-beam, gohan's power level was at 2800 when he fired that mesenko roshi has a power lv of about 160 when he destroyed the moon so dont you give me that.


> For some strange reason, you always say "if you deny it" or "if you argue against Goku that he's not blah blah" when I haven't said anything of the sort once.


When? that's the first time Ive said it, I think your getting me mixed up with somebody else, abit like how you called me a bs yesterday for saying it was night in england when it clearly was  .


> Time? As in nanoseconds?
> I think it's fair to say that you can outrule SSJ3 in this fight. That's much too slow.


 But you or your mate mike said it take's flash a second to go into lightspeed, and I proved to you the otherday that it take's goku a second to go ss3, and dont say it doesn't again when we showed you the proof with the episode and the manga scan's. 


> 1. Flash can just go back in time to when the battle starts. Goku has no idea what to do.


The best martial artist on planet earth I think he will have a good idea what to do dont you.


> 2. Flash can make himself invisible so Goku will have absolutely no clue where Flash is. As soon as he begins to turn his head a single centimeter, he would have his speed stolen and his body vibrated to pieces. Don't say the he can sense Flash because he can't. Flash doesn't have any Ki, he's not a Dragonball character.


And that's your opinion that flash could do that to goku not a solid fact and like you allready admited flash cant hurt goku so it doesn't matter (and you admited that goku can withstand planet destroying attack's which flash cant do)


> 3. Goku still has to think first too


aout what exactly flash cant hurt him 


> 4. Flash can make a shield up instantly that would block all Goku's physical attacks.


Lol and Im sure goku's attack's which are strong enough to destroy planet's couldn't get through  


> 5. Goku would take too much time to charge a planet buster and fire it, Flash can go back in time or steal his speed during that time.


Yeah he can go back in time and exactly the same shit will happen again.

*Sorry but you allready submitted in this argument when you admited goku can withstand planet destroying attack's which the flash ( a normal human with super speed) cant dish out, it's over*


----------



## Jay (Dec 3, 2006)

Space said:


> Eh for me I think wikipedia is a valuable source of information. It's just that it's open for editing but most things like this aren't edited by stupid 10 year olds.



And I completely agree with you, I was just saying that I find funny the way your mate's quote me for saying that but dont say jack when it's you.
Oh and by the way this thread is now over please close it down goku win's cheer's.


----------



## Kai (Dec 3, 2006)

Bijuukage said:


> Ok...


I don't understand why you're saying this.



			
				bijuukage said:
			
		

> Your welcome?


not really.



			
				Bijuukage said:
			
		

> Any Proof?


1. 

2. And I've already posted this, but like jaydaime you've failed to read.





			
				bijuukage said:
			
		

> Wall West as The Flash. Not Wally West as Kid Flash which is much faster.
> (Hence the title, "The Flash" and not "Kid Flash")
> 1. No he doesn't.(There are times where he went somwehere without Ki.)
> 2. No he doesn't (There are times that he doesn't have to, and he hasn't)


1. Show me
2. And you have any explanation for this? He can't achieve the same kind of concentration that he does when puts up his 2 fingers, which is even worse.





			
				bijuukage said:
			
		

> Did you even read the Dragonball Theory. Curbstomp.


Do you know enough about the Flash, or are you just basing off what you know?


----------



## Kai (Dec 3, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Who say's I havn't seen flash fight?


Noone, but you said you've never seen Flash fight at lightspeed or fight as the same speed as Goku which shows you haven't read enough to know.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> *I noticed you keep saying that Im denying* that when Im not, but I didn't say anything about combat speed now did I?


Another assumption. I never said anything of the sort.
You're speaking as if goku's normal punches and kicks can keep up with the Flash.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Dont be dramatic, Flash is faster then a thought according to wikipedia okay that's fine but who say's goku even has to think, just like 1 of his many teacher's mr popo say's clear your mind of everything (or summat like that can't be assed looking it up) and he use's his sense's which are now pretty much automatic once he has cleared his mind which is how he goe's into every battle now since then, so his his defense is extreamly good he is a master martial artist after all, plus flash cant hurt him.


So what you're saying is during extremely fast sequences of battle, Goku's mind is totally empty?

And as I've said before, Goku's senses have to process in his brain. Plus, there's no way he can sense flash besides the obvious human senses.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> And how is flash going to hurt him?


Once Flash steals his speed(which is alot), he can just infinite mass punch him which punch at the speed of light.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Thankyou you have admited goku can take planet destroying attack's which flash cant do so how can he hurt him this battle is now finally over.


Didn't I just say that Goku's not as *durable* as a planet?



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Tien focused the rest of his power into a full tri-beam, gohan's power level was at 2800 when he fired that mesenko *roshi has a power lv of about 160 when he destroyed the moon* so dont you give me that.


Ah, so by your logic, since Nappa blocked the Masenko Ha, Nappa's arms durability > Earth's durability?

Is there proof about Roshi at 160?



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> When? that's the first time Ive said it, I think your getting me mixed up with somebody else, abit like how you called me a bs yesterday for saying it was night in england when it clearly was  .


Well, the fact that you and jplaya post so similarly.....

You said it was 4 in the morning or something like that, then 5 or 6 hours later you said it was night again  




			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> But you or your mate mike said it take's flash a second to go into lightspeed, and I proved to you the otherday that it take's goku a second to go ss3, and dont say it doesn't again when we showed you the proof with the episode and the manga scan's.


It does not Goku a second to go SSJ3. It takes him more than that. And you can't measure time in manga. We have to rule the manga out in this specific case.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> The best martial artist on planet earth I think he will have a good idea what to do dont you.


Actually, not really. I recall that Goku has no plan in his fights, he just fights.
Trunks: "I'm sure Goku has found out Cell's weakness, right Goku?"
Goku: "I have no clue."



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> And that's your opinion that flash could do that to goku not a solid fact and like *you allready admited flash cant hurt goku* so it doesn't matter (and you admited that goku can withstand planet destroying attack's which flash cant do)


And when in hell did I admit that? You must be putting words in my mouth.

What does Flash not being able to withstand planet destroying attacks have to do with this fight?
1. Goku will NOT be fast enough to execute it.
2. Flash can just go back in time. Easy, and try a billion other things. 




			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Lol and Im sure goku's attack's which are strong enough to destroy planet's couldn't get through


Goku's physical attacks are nowhere near planet destroying.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Yeah he can go back in time and exactly the same shit will happen again.


Er...how? Flash isn't a dumbass, he knows what Goku will do.

*Sorry but you allready submitted in this argument when you admited goku can withstand planet destroying attack's which the flash ( a normal human with super speed) cant dish out, it's over*[/QUOTE]
Then I also said that he's not as durable as a planet. Goku's body much tinier compared to a planet, and Flash can infinite mass punch him at lightspeed. Can't be stopped.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 3, 2006)

space, i clearly posted canon scans that showed goku going ssj3 in an instant even posted the video link to the anime.


----------



## Kai (Dec 3, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> space, i clearly posted canon scans that showed goku going ssj3 in an instant even posted the video link to the anime.



Yes, I saw those.

Manga:
- You can't measure time in manga which meant it's assumptions

Anime:
-That did NOT take 1 second. It took like 2 seconds. BIG difference in this battle.


----------



## Jay (Dec 3, 2006)

> =Space;6207750]Noone, but you said you've never seen Flash fight at lightspeed or fight as the same speed as Goku which shows you haven't read enough to know.


And I could say the same for you considering your asking me to prove roshi's power lv, when anybody who has seen dbz know's that.




> Another assumption. I never said anything of the sort.
> You're speaking as if goku's normal punches and kicks can keep up with the Flash.


You keep saying Im denying flash's speed, man... your memory is bad.



> So what you're saying is during extremely fast sequences of battle, Goku's mind is totally empty?


No it's clear and focused.



> And as I've said before, Goku's senses have to process in his brain. Plus, there's no way he can sense flash besides the obvious human senses.


goku can sense people in other dimension's and people light's year's away so dont give me that crap




> Once Flash steals his speed(which is alot), he can just infinite mass punch him which punch at the speed of light.


Yeah because goku is really slow so he will really just stand there and get puched at the speed of light lol, plus it still wont hurt his body which is as tough as a planet flash can punch forever those skinny normal human arm's wont do shit to him no matter how fast there going.




> Didn't I just say that Goku's not as *durable* as a planet?


Yes and you also said goku can withstand planet destroying attack's so your just contradicting yourself.




> Ah, so by your logic, since Nappa blocked the Masenko Ha, Nappa's arms durability > Earth's durability?


As much as your feeble brain strugle's to believe how strong even the earliest of the dbz villan's are yes nappa is also strong enougth to withstand planet destroying attack's and this has been proven more then once by me so stop asking the same shit.



> Is there proof about Roshi at 160?


When bulma first got raditz scanner she tested it on krilen and roshi and even the turtle surely you remeber?



> Well, the fact that you and jplaya post so similarly.....
> 
> You said it was 4 in the morning or something like that, then 5 or 6 hours later you said it was night again


Now I know your a liar ethier that or once again your memory is pathetic go back and check my post's you fucking idiot my last one was 4am and the next day it was 6.30pm, there's no need for you to be making bullshit up. 




> It does not Goku a second to go SSJ3. It takes him more than that. And you can't measure time in manga. We have to rule the manga out in this specific case.


Once again taking more shit even when it's been proven to you or is it just your memory again. Oh and here's abit of advice if your brain can remember, to be a good lair you need a good memory otherwise you just look like a dick  .



> Actually, not really. I recall that Goku has no plan in his fights, he just fights.
> Trunks: "I'm sure Goku has found out Cell's weakness, right Goku?"
> Goku: "I have no clue."


So if your saying goku doesn't need to plan his fight's then why do you keep asking that he need's to think first?




> And when in hell did I admit that? You must be putting words in my mouth.


*Sigh* you really do have a shit memory, go up a couple of post's and read.


> What does Flash not being able to withstand planet destroying attacks have to do with this fight?


Huh? I never said it did


> 1. Goku will NOT be fast enough to execute it.
> 2. Flash can just go back in time. Easy, and try a billion other things.


He want get a billion chance's he will be dead.




> Goku's physical attacks are nowhere near planet destroying.


But his ki beam's are



> Er...how? Flash isn't a dumbass, he knows what Goku will do.


From what I have seen of flash he isn't the brightest spark in the world ethier.


> *Sorry but you allready submitted in this argument when you admited goku can withstand planet destroying attack's which the flash ( a normal human with super speed) cant dish out, it's over*
> Then I also said that he's not as durable as a planet. Goku's body much tinier compared to a planet, and Flash can infinite mass punch him at lightspeed. Can't be stopped.[/


So for flash to do this to goku how many time's faster then goku would he have to be?
and you also think when super alein's about a milion time's more powerfull then flash cant hurt goku that flash's skinny little super fast arm's will


----------



## Kai (Dec 3, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> And I could say the same for you considering your asking me to prove roshi's power lv, when anybody who has *seen* dbz know's that.


So when he destroyed the moon, everybody we're like "WOW ROSHI YOU'RE POWER LVL IS 160!!! I totally remember seeing that.  



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> You keep saying Im denying flash's speed, man... your memory is bad.


You make me laugh   Show me once where I said that you're denying things.
I told you don't deny things not you're denying things.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> No it's clear and focused.


Then drop youre talk about when Popo said empty your mind because that's different than what you're saying here.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> goku can sense people in other dimension's and people light's year's away so dont give me that crap


Why the hell are we at square 1? Goku has massive sensing distances *if the people have ki.* Flash has 0 ki whatsoever and you can't equip him with Ki because he's not a Dragonball character.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Yeah because goku is really slow so he will really just stand there and get puched at the speed of light lol, plus *it still wont hurt his body which is as tough as a planet* flash can punch forever those skinny normal human arm's wont do shit to him no matter how fast there going.


The whole world is laughing at that statement.
Goku got hurt when ChiChi hit him with a PAN when she was angry that he brought Gohan out to fight. Yeah, tough as a planet.  



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Yes and you also said goku can withstand planet destroying attack's so your just contradicting yourself.


And why do you think I said it and bolded it? Because they're obviously different things. I'm noticing you like taking things back to Square 1 and going on in a neverending cycle...
Withstanding a planet destroying blast and being as durable as a planet are two different things.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> As much as your feeble brain strugle's to believe how strong even the earliest of the dbz villan's are yes nappa is also strong enougth to withstand planet destroying attack's and this has been proven more then once by me so stop asking the same shit.


I'm not struggling at all whatsoever. You're struggling to convince me to believe that Nappa's arm is more durable then planet Earth.  



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> When bulma first got raditz scanner she tested it on krilen and roshi and even the turtle surely you remeber?


Yeah, at that time, the Master Roshi in DBZ that's retired and skinny has the *exact* same power level as the Master roshi in Dragonball 10 years ago , with muscles 3X his size and firing a Super Kamehameha at the moon.




			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Once again taking more shit even when it's been proven to you or is it just your memory again. Oh and here's abit of advice if your brain can remember, to be a good lair you need a good memory otherwise you just look like a dick  .


I don't understand how *you* out of all people could get so angry when you're the one repeating things over and over when we've already passed the points. "How will Flash damage Goku?" After I explain it you say "Flash can't damage Goku!" Your arguments are totally moot at this point.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> So if your saying goku doesn't need to plan his fight's then why do you keep asking that he need's to think first?


Thinking does not mean making a plan. 



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> *Sigh* you really do have a shit memory, go up a couple of post's and read.





			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> you allready admited flash cant hurt goku


I didn't say anything even remotely close to that. Stop deciding what I say. It's a debate, not a monologue.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Huh? I never said it did


^^^^


			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> And if flash doesn't have enough strength to destroy a planet then how can he hurt goku


*news flash* you're the one with memory difficulties.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> He want get a billion chance's he will be dead.


This post makes 0 sense. But I'll try to make out what you're nonsensical posts are trying to say.
The Flash can go back in time in nanoseconds, he has infinite possible tricks that he can try on Goku and all Goku can do is stand and maybe move a few mm if he's lucky.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> But his ki beam's are


We were on the subject of Goku's physical attacks here, and now you say his ki beams are powerful enough to destroy a planet. You're escaping the subject, so you admit that his physical attacks aren't all that great. Flash's speed barrier is much stronger than you give it credit for.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> From what I have seen of flash he isn't the brightest spark in the world ethier.


Now I know for sure that even *you* can't deny this, but he's much more intelligent than goku. Goku can't even get a job, and the Flash can speedread a book in seconds. He has superhuman thinking too.

And that sentence you said had nothing really to do with what I said earlier. I said flash could go back in time to do a billion other things to Goku. Goku has an inch of action at most in this fight.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> So for flash to do this to goku how many time's faster then goku would he have to be?
> and you also think when super alein's about a milion time's more powerfull then flash cant hurt goku that flash's skinny little super fast arm's will


Let's see: Goku gets hurt by a punch that at best can cause an earthquake.
Flash's Infinite Mass punch: Flash can punch infinitely at the speed of light, granted by the speedforce. Each of his punches impart blows equivalent to a white dwarf star, which is 60% of the Sun's mass compressed into the size of Earth and has a mass of 600 tons(Note that while Goku was training in Kai world he was struggling with 40 tons).

The coolest temperature of a white dwarf star was about 3500 Kelvin while the hottest was about 190,000 K and if you don't know how to convert, the hottest would be around 350,000 degrees Farenheit.

Each punch dealing that much infinitely and at light speed


----------



## ZABUZA = GOD! (Dec 3, 2006)

Goku istant transmission will make him move as fast as the flash 
then he blows him up 
Goku wins


----------



## Kai (Dec 3, 2006)

ZABUZA = GOD! said:


> Goku istant transmission will make him move as fast as the flash
> then he blows him up
> Goku wins



Where's he going to sense a ki signal?

Read the rest of the thread instead of just coming in here and trolling.


----------



## atom (Dec 3, 2006)

> Do you know enough about the Flash, or are you just basing off what you know?


I own the comics. DC Comic changes the power levels of their Super Hero's according to their popularity, thats why "The Flash" is alot slower then "Kid Flash". And since this is "THE Flash" then Goku would win. Kid Flash would most likely beat Goku.

Curbstomp.


----------



## Orion (Dec 3, 2006)

the current flash isnt weak at all and can still go lightspeed so i dont see how goku wins heres how the fight goes,goku attemps to fly flash vibrates through gokus head,about 1 second later or less goku's head explodes THE END.


----------



## atom (Dec 3, 2006)

> the current flash isnt weak at all and can still go lightspeed so i dont see how goku wins heres how the fight goes,goku attemps to fly flash vibrates through gokus head,about 1 second later or less goku's head explodes THE END.


The Current Flash isnt Wally West though. The Current "Flash" is Bart Allen. The Current Wally West would be curbstomped by Goku. Since hes "The Flash" right now and is in a weakened state, if he was "Kid Flash" that would be different.. very different.


----------



## Orion (Dec 3, 2006)

thread maker says wally west is flash in this battle.and i meant current as in were using  in this fight not actual current one.


----------



## atom (Dec 3, 2006)

Yes, I know Wally West is the flash in this battle. But in the post and the thread title it says "The Flash" as in "THE FLASH". Yes. Goku wins. Even if it was Kid Flash, Goku would still win. Goku would just blow off Kid Flash's suit, making his speed useless. And just kill him.


----------



## Orion (Dec 3, 2006)

^^and how will he do that when he alrdy got speedblitzed.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 3, 2006)

According to the first post, Wally West is in his prime. It was very clearly defined that this flash could tap into the Speed Force at will and had all of his prior abilities. That Flash wins, by alot.


----------



## Kai (Dec 3, 2006)

Bijuukage said:


> Yes, I know Wally West is the flash in this battle. But in the post and the thread title it says "The Flash" as in "THE FLASH". Yes. Goku wins. Even if it was Kid Flash, Goku would still win. Goku would just blow off Kid Flash's suit, making his speed useless. And just kill him.





			
				Bijuukage said:
			
		

> if he was "Kid Flash" that would be different.. very different.


^^^


			
				bijuukage said:
			
		

> Even if it was Kid Flash, Goku would still win.



Tsk tsk.

Yet you've still to say how Goku would pull a win from out of nowhere. All you've basically stated was that this wasn't Kid Flash, and Goku can atain victory by no means.


----------



## atom (Dec 3, 2006)

What difference does it make, Flash is nothing without that suit. Goku will just rip it apart. (By destroying the entire planet, also destroying the suit and teh flash). Win. Not to mention that Goku can use his Ki to change gravity


----------



## Orion (Dec 3, 2006)

^^now your just spouting bullshit how does goku manage to get off the planet charge a planet destroying blast and destroy flashes suit before he gets blitzed speed stolen and vibrated outta existance.


----------



## Kai (Dec 3, 2006)

Bijuukage said:


> What difference does it make, Flash is nothing without that suit. Goku will just rip it apart. (By destroying the entire planet, also destroying the suit and teh flash). Win. Not to mention that Goku can use his Ki to change gravity



It's apparent now that all you're doing is trolling. Read the last few pages as I've debated against Jaydaime how slow Goku is to fire a planet destroying blast.

For the last time Flash would have stolen his speed and vibrated him to pieces by then. He can also just go back in time. It's not that hard for him, and a ki blast from Goku can't catch the Flash yet he can probably just vibrate through the ki blast.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 3, 2006)

..and then Goku wakes up from a coma realising his victory was just a distant dream and he already lost.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 3, 2006)

This is still going on?

Goku loses. Admit it.

Geez, DBZ fanboys are some of the worst ever, no matter what kind of impossible odds you put against them they always refuse to admit their characters will lose.

As an aside, I have a comment on the Mr. Popo "faster than lightning" thing. It's amazing how DBZtards are allowed to get away with using that as a legitimate argument. I mean, if we applied the same kind of logic they use to One Piece, for example, we would get something like this:

Enel could turn into lightning. That means he could move as fast as lightning, which is at least 1/3rd lightspeed. Luffy not only beat him, he was actually blitzing him too fast for Enel to even react, which makes Luffy high relativistic speed. This was before he even learned Gear 2 and Soru, which means Soru is probably at least lightspeed. That means Lucci's Kamisori must be FTL!

Now, not even the most hardcore OPtard on the forums would seriously make a claim like that, and if they did, they would be laughed out of the OBD and negrepped to hell. But DBZ fans are allowed to use the exact same logic all the time and people actually support them! The worst thing is that the One Piece argument actually makes more sense, since Enel actually _was_ lightning, as opposed to having some goofy - looking midget tell him he was "faster than lightning".


----------



## atom (Dec 3, 2006)

Heh, the argument must go on (but really, wasn't already obvious Flash was faster then Goku?)

Goku can use is ulimate SS4 Super Speed techinque.


----------



## Shiron (Dec 3, 2006)

The Flash wins. If nothing else, then speed-steal+Speed Force Cage+Dump in Black Hole/Speed Force FTW.


----------



## Kai (Dec 3, 2006)

Bijuukage said:


> Heh, the argument must go on (but really, wasn't already obvious Flash was faster then Goku?)
> 
> Goku can use is ulimate SS4 Super Speed techinque.



Now *this* is something that Jplaya or Jaydaime should say when they're at the end of their rope.

Aside from even if this noncanon material is included, Goku going SSJ4 is much too much time. don't think about including that in this fight.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 3, 2006)

Bijuukage said:


> Heh, the argument must go on (but really, wasn't already obvious Flash was faster then Goku?)
> 
> Goku can use is ulimate SS4 Super Speed techinque.



Which is not only non - canon, but doesn't even exist anywhere except in your mind.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> As an aside, I have a comment on the Mr. Popo "faster than lightning" thing. It's amazing how DBZtards are allowed to get away with using that as a legitimate argument. I mean, if we applied the same kind of logic they use to One Piece, for example, we would get something like this:
> 
> Enel could turn into lightning. That means he could move as fast as lightning, which is at least 1/3rd lightspeed. Luffy not only beat him, he was actually blitzing him too fast for Enel to even react, which makes Luffy high relativistic speed. This was before he even learned Gear 2 and Soru, which means Soru is probably at least lightspeed. That means Lucci's Kamisori must be FTL!
> 
> Now, not even the most hardcore OPtard on the forums would seriously make a claim like that, and if they did, they would be laughed out of the OBD and negrepped to hell. But DBZ fans are allowed to use the exact same logic all the time and people actually support them! The worst thing is that the One Piece argument actually makes more sense, since Enel actually _was_ lightning, as opposed to having some goofy - looking midget tell him he was "faster than lightning".



You are a twit, as said you aren't actually making an argument. You're simple saying "Mr. Popo did NOT move "FASTER than lightning" because I said so Nyar nyar nyar". You do NOT override Canon material nor the author.......

Guess you don't know what Canon means..

Toriyama is telling (one of his traits) a story, anyone with more than one brain cell who has ever read a comic book would see that. 

Do you think Toriyama just allows the characters to have dialogue for no reason what so ever? Do you actually understand the concept of story telling??!!

Toriyama put the words in the characters mouth HIMSELF and He said Popo moved FASTER than lightning. You whiners can drone about how he's not a scientist and what ever crap you say (LOL like THAT is relevent). But the author decides what his characters can do...end....of ....story


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 4, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> You are a twit, as said you aren't actually making an argument. You're simple saying "Mr. Popo did NOT move "FASTER than lightning" because I said so Nyar nyar nyar". You do NOT override Canon material nor the author.......
> 
> Guess you don't know what Canon means..
> 
> ...



Wait so how does this impact Flash's speed advantage over Goku?

EDIT: Before I go to bed I'd like to note that they had to develop a Time Machine to travel thru time and this Flash could do it under his own power. So I think its Clear that Goku won't be hitting Flash. Also there was an issue where Kid Flash busted Superboy Prime's lip with his super-speed punches. Anyway if people have scans go for it I'm off to bed on that note.


----------



## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

Phenomenol could use a PAGE TIME MACHINE so he can actually go back a few pages to read wtf has actually been presented to him, instead of skipping to the last page(present) and just spouting off what is irrelevant to the fight.


----------



## SoulTaker (Dec 4, 2006)

Can anyone actually say why or how Goku beats the Flash?


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 4, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:


> Can anyone actually say why or how Goku beats the Flash?



IT+ kamehameha = dead red roadkill


----------



## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:


> Can anyone actually say why or how Goku beats the Flash?



I'll say it for them.

"ZOMG GOKU CAN LIKE DESTROY THE PLANET WHEN IT TAKES 10 SECONDS TO POWER UP A BLAST LIKE THAT. It's ok because Goku will IT away to a randomn place that has *0* ki whatsoever."
*after given evidence that Flash is faster than the speed of thought*
"Goku is faster with IT"
"Flash can't catch Goku if he can go in the air"
 
"Goku can sense beings lightyears, dimensions away! A Flash right in front of him will be a walk in the park."
Considering the Flash has no ki and then the DBZ fans try to input Ki in him even though DC doesn't revolve around that principle.  
"Goku's as durable as a planet, how is he going to get hurt by the Flash?"

Basically those same damn things getting repeated in a neverending cycle. Either that or a mouthoff off of Goku's feats that have no relevance to the battle.


----------



## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> IT+ kamehameha = dead red roadkill



Just wondering what Ki signal he's going to receive before he uses IT. 

You're telling someone to hear without any ears. It's impossible for Goku to use IT if there's no ki signal at all.

Plus Flash would outrun a Kamehameha, and even before that, he would stop it before it's activated, stuff Goku's hands making the kamehameha down his pants , cut his hair, and steal his speed before Goku can even make eye contact with him.

Stop repeating things as it does NOT give ANY positive attributes whatsoever except raise your post count by 1.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 4, 2006)

Space said:


> Just wondering what Ki signal he's going to receive before he uses IT.



life energy = ki 

flash has life energy therefore he has ki 

no life energy = dead

got it?


----------



## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> life energy = ki
> 
> flash has life energy therefore he has ki
> 
> ...



So...by your logic, Goku has chakra(Naruto), reiatsu(Bleach), Karma(Hindu Religion), and the Love of Jesus Christ.

You can't input Ki into Flash because he's *not a Dragonball character* Gardner Fox doesn't have any relations with Dragonball whatsoever and he implies physics into Flash just like any other of the creators in the DCU.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> You are a twit, as said you aren't actually making an argument. You're simple saying "Mr. Popo did NOT move "FASTER than lightning" because I said so Nyar nyar nyar". You do NOT override Canon material nor the author.......



I never said I did, idiot. I merely said it's not literal. It's a figure of speech, like "empty your soul" "as calm as the sky".



> Guess you don't know what Canon means..
> 
> Toriyama is telling (one of his traits) a story, anyone with more than one brain cell who has ever read a comic book would see that.
> 
> Do you think Toriyama just allows the characters to have dialogue for no reason what so ever? Do you actually understand the concept of story telling??!!



Do you understand the concept of FIGURES OF SPEECH?



> Toriyama put the words in the characters mouth HIMSELF and He said Popo moved FASTER than lightning. You whiners can drone about how he's not a scientist and what ever crap you say (LOL like THAT is relevent). But the author decides what his characters can do...end....of ....story



So I guess Flipper the Dolphin is faster than lightning, Bart Allen is a living lightning rod, Golden Age Captain America is lightspeed, Darkseid is omnipotent, the Death Star is the Ultimate Power in the Universe, etc....


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

In addition, Goku needs to think to use IT, he needs to lock onto a ki signature (even if we say Flash has ki, he would only have normal human equivalent ki, and moving faster than anyone in the DBU by orders of magnitude would be impossible to track since Goku loses track of much slower people with much higher ki) and he would have to take time to power up the Kamehameha (people forget that before he IT'd next to Cell, he spent like 30 seconds in the sky powering it up making people think he was going to shoot it at earth), then fire it (considering Cell had time to talk it would be easy for Flash to dodge or vibrate through).


----------



## Jay (Dec 4, 2006)

> Space;6208854]So when he destroyed the moon, everybody we're like "WOW ROSHI YOU'RE POWER LVL IS 160!!! I totally remember seeing that.


Because I never said that, idiot stop making shit up! , I said when bulma first got the scanner she checked roshi's pl out, or are you having difficulty's remembering again. 


> Then drop youre talk about when Popo said empty your mind because that's different than what you're saying here.


Having your mind clear or empty is pretty much the same thing.


> Why the hell are we at square 1? Goku has massive sensing distances *if the people have ki.* Flash has 0 ki whatsoever and you can't equip him with Ki because he's not a Dragonball character.


All human's have ki you fool


> The whole world is laughing at that statement.
> Goku got hurt when ChiChi hit him with a PAN when she was angry that he brought Gohan out to fight. Yeah, tough as a planet.


Okay so there are super being's that cant hurt goku, but chichi his *wife* hit's him and his say's ouch, jesus.. goku's scared of needle's for god sake's it has to have some comedy in it it's a cartoon.
And Im not sure or not but I think your a girl just by the way how bitchy you talk, but when a man's wife/girlfrend hit's them in temper even if it doesn't hurt most men will say ouch what you doing.
But if a man get's in a fight with another man and that man hit's them Im pretty sure they wont say ouch they'll fight back.


> And why do you think I said it and bolded it? Because they're obviously different things. I'm noticing you like taking things back to Square 1 and going on in a neverending cycle...
> Withstanding a planet destroying blast and being as durable as a planet are two different things.


Okay so roshi can detstroy the moon with a pl of let's just say 320 because like you say it was 10 year's ago, but goku who has a pl of 1500000 when he is fighting freeza but your saying he coudn't withstand attack's that are at around 300? ( and if your going to ask how i knowthe pl? I used the same site you got your flash is faster then a thought statement off, wikipedia) so I think that prove's alone he is as durable if not more durable then a planet if a planet's durabilitie can ony withstand attack's at 300.


> I'm not struggling at all whatsoever. You're struggling to convince me to believe that Nappa's arm is more durable then planet Earth.


Well if his one arm could also withstand an attack at 2800 then work it out for yourself or read above again.


> Yeah, at that time, the Master Roshi in DBZ that's retired and skinny has the *exact* same power level as the Master roshi in Dragonball 10 years ago , with muscles 3X his size and firing a Super Kamehameha at the moon.
> His muscle's were 3x the size 10 year's ago you really do like to make shit up  .


Okay just to make you feel better Ill be generous because your argument's are getting really petty, let's just say we go back ten year's and roshi was twice as strong (which I highly doubt) his power lv would still only have been 320, so sorry but that's still nothing compared to all the other dbz fighter's.


> I don't understand how *you* out of all people could get so angry when you're the one repeating things over and over when we've already passed the points. "How will Flash damage Goku?" After I explain it you say "Flash can't damage Goku!" Your arguments are totally moot at this point.


So your saying flash could forever hit goku that's how he woud hurt him yes? but wouldn't flash have to be forever time's faster?


> Thinking does not mean making a plan.


You tell me what exactly will he have to think about? do you need to think to walk eat run even when you learn to drive you can drive with just your subconsion's mind well I can I dont have to think to change the gear's use the break or put my foot on the clutch I just do it automatically.


> *news flash* you're the one with memory difficulties.


Okay you said


> What does Flash not being able to withstand planet destroying attacks have to do with this fight?


I never fucking asked that so * news flash* your the one with memory difficulties 


> This post makes 0 sense. But I'll try to make out what you're nonsensical posts are trying to say.
> The Flash can go back in time in nanoseconds, he has infinite possible tricks that he can try on Goku and all Goku can do is stand and maybe move a few mm if he's lucky.


He can do it in nanosecond's I thought it take's flash at least a second to go into lightspeed?


> We were on the subject of Goku's physical attacks here, and now you say his ki beams are powerful enough to destroy a planet. You're escaping the subject, so you admit that his physical attacks aren't all that great. Flash's speed barrier is much stronger than you give it credit for.


We wern't talking about goku's phsical attack's at all you just assumed that so now your chatting more shit.


> Now I know for sure that even *you* can't deny this, but he's much more intelligent than goku. Goku can't even get a job, and the Flash can speedread a book in seconds. He has superhuman thinking too


.
But were talking about his combat intelligence not who can read a book faster, stop asking stupid question's.


> And that sentence you said had nothing really to do with what I said earlier. I said flash could go back in time to do a billion other things to Goku. Goku has an inch of action at most in this fight.


I don't think flash's first attack will be to go back in time he will obviously try fighting goku first as he know's nothing about him, and by that time flash will be dead.


> Let's see: Goku gets hurt by a punch that at best can cause an earthquake.
> Flash's Infinite Mass punch: Flash can punch infinitely at the speed of light, granted by the speedforce. Each of his punches impart blows equivalent to a white dwarf star, which is 60% of the Sun's mass compressed into the size of Earth and has a mass of 600 tons(Note that while Goku was training in Kai world he was struggling with 40 tons).
> 
> The coolest temperature of a white dwarf star was about 3500 Kelvin while the hottest was about 190,000 K and if you don't know how to convert, the hottest would be around 350,000 degrees Farenheit.
> ...


Those 40 ton's were strapped to his limb's there's a big difference why cant some people understand that, so basically now your saying flash can do planet destroying atack's? and for this to work on goku which I allready asked how many time's faster then goku would he have to be?
because I think goku's combat speed can also be classed at lightspeed but just to make you happy let's just say it's a quarter of that, would flash's attack's work on somebody who is only 4 time's slower then him?

*And for the reckoning I cant be arsed answering the same shite all over again! Ive got better thing's to do then argue with a pitiful fangirl like you.*


----------



## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Because I never said that, idiot stop making shit up! , *I said when bulma first got the scanner she checked roshi's pl out, or are you having difficulty's remembering again*.


For *this* specific argument, you DID NOT say that. All you said was "Anyone who's seen DBZ should know Roshi's power level is 160"

I'm going to stop arguing the small arguments because they are so basic, but you surprise me that you don't understand such basic concepts.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> All human's have ki you fool


Well, now you are I'm 100% sure you're pure fanboy because of this statement. You said you weren't before but now it's obvious that you are.

Flash is not a DB character, how many times do I have to say that? 
Then I can just say Goku has chakra, reiatsu, and karma.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> *Okay so there are super being's that cant hurt goku*, but chichi his *wife* hit's him and his say's ouch, jesus.. goku's scared of needle's for god sake's it has to have some comedy in it it's a cartoon.



Like who? If they attack and he takes it head on, he'll get damaged.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Okay so roshi can detstroy the moon with a pl of let's just say 320 because like you say it was 10 year's ago, but goku who has a pl of 1500000 when he is fighting freeza but your saying he coudn't withstand attack's that are at around 300? ( and if your going to ask how i knowthe pl? I used the same site you got your flash is faster then a thought statement off, wikipedia) so I think that prove's alone he is as durable if not more durable then a planet if a planet's durabilitie can ony withstand attack's at 300.


Another one of those stupid comments.
"and if your going to ask how i knowthe pl?" or "don't say that he can't because blah blah"
Keep mark of it, because if you don't and you start lying and trolling for no reason again, I'm getting a mod involved.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Well if his one arm could also withstand an attack at 2800 then work it out for yourself or read above again.


LoL, then why doesn't anyone say that Gohan's attack could destroy a planet? You're actually underestimating how massive a planet is. 

When Vegeta was charging his Final Flash against Cell, Krilin said something like "Omg, Vegeta's going to destroy the planet!!" oh but when he does normal ki balls(stronger than Roshi's) noone says anything. Because they're no where near planet destroying. Toriyama will put note of it inside the manga if it was planet destroying.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Okay just to make you feel better Ill be generous because your argument's are getting really petty, let's just say we go back ten year's and roshi was twice as strong (which I highly doubt) his power lv would still only have been 320, so sorry but that's still nothing compared to all the other dbz fighter's.


Your point? You proved that other DBZ fighters are stronger than Master Roshi, that really helps this fight.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> So your saying flash could forever hit goku that's how he woud hurt him yes? but wouldn't flash have to be forever time's faster?


Lightspeed punches.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> You tell me what exactly will he have to think about? do you need to think to walk eat run even when you learn to drive you can drive with just your subconsion's mind well I can I dont have to think to change the gear's use the break or put my foot on the clutch I just do it automatically.


The brain sends signals to the body, and in case you deny it and don't know how it works I posted a site a couple pages back on exactly how the brain works and sends signals to the body. 
Flash is still faster than thought, regardless subconscious or not.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> I never fucking asked that so * news flash* your the one with memory difficulties


HELLOO? The quote is RIGHT THERE, I just posted it and now you're saying "Omg i didn't post that?"



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> We wern't talking about goku's phsical attack's at all you just assumed that so now your chatting more shit.





			
				Space said:
			
		

> Flash can make a shield up instantly that would block all Goku's physical attacks.


^^^^


			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Lol and Im sure goku's attack's which are strong enough to destroy planet's couldn't get through


Undeniable fucking proof right in front of your eyes.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> *I don't think flash's first attack will be to go back in time *he will obviously try fighting goku first as he know's nothing about him, and by that time flash will be dead.


I never said it would...
Plus, I doubt Flash would have to go back in time for this battle. He can win by just stealing Goku's speed which is AS SOON as the battle starts.
1. Obviously Goku *cannot* use IT here seeing as the Flash has 0 ki whatsoever. Also, it's in the stage set by the OP so if he tries to IT away to some randomn planet, the Living Tribunal would just make him cease to exist and Flash would win.
2. Without the aid of IT in this battle, Goku would have to use his superspeed to win. You said that Flash is faster than Goku, but not in combat speed correct? Well once the battle starts(for a few nanoseconds) those moments are pure linear speed. Goku won't have time for any of his limbs to react before Flash has stolen his speed.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Those 40 ton's were strapped to his limb's there's a big difference why cant some people understand that, *so basically now your saying flash can do planet destroying atack's?* and for this to work on goku which I allready asked how many time's faster then goku would he have to be?


I'm going to change my mind on that one to say "I don't know". Maybe he can, but I'm not a comic book genius.
Doesn't matter, since you said yourself that Flash was faster than Goku....remember?




			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> because *I think goku's combat speed can also be classed at lightspeed* but just to make you happy let's just say it's a quarter of that, would flash's attack's work on somebody who is only 4 time's slower then him?


Ok let's play your way. Let's say his combat speed is lightspeed. Using the same principle you asked about Flash "Doesn't flash have to take time to get to lightspeed?" ,well Goku doesn't fight at lightspeed instantly.

I remember seeing once that Goku was hurt by a fire(I know comically), but nevertheless still got burned. Flash's infinite mass punches would be at 350,000 degress farenheight. It'll punch massive holes in his body, and it'll go down in miliseconds.




			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> *And for the reckoning I cant be arsed answering the same shite all over again! Ive got better thing's to do then argue with a pitiful fangirl like you.*


You're immature comments are really pissing me off. Tells me that there's randomn 8 year olds that like to whine endlessly instead of debate.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 4, 2006)

Space said:


> So...by your logic, Goku has chakra(Naruto), reiatsu(Bleach), Karma(Hindu Religion), and the Love of Jesus Christ.
> 
> You can't input Ki into Flash because he's *not a Dragonball character* Gardner Fox doesn't have any relations with Dragonball whatsoever and he implies physics into Flash just like any other of the creators in the DCU.




chakra, karma, reiatsu = life energy

everyone has it or they dead

If you dont want flash to have ki then goku doesnt have that type of "speed" flash can steal since he isnt a DC character. Now be a hypocrit and get mad


----------



## Gohan (Dec 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> This is still going on?
> 
> Goku loses. Admit it.
> 
> ...



All "electricity" doesn't move at the same speed. Just because lightning moves at 1/3 speed of light you assume Enel's electricity does too? Lightning is the speed of a lightning discharge from cloud-to-ground, ground-to-cloud, or cloud-to-cloud. Much different from enels hand to his opponent. And Lightnings speed depends upon the path and speed that the atmospheric plasma advances and that depends upon many factors. 

Also saying lightning moves at 1/3 speed of light is being lenient, in actual reality, the speed is normally no more than half the speed of light BUT is _*usually substantially less*_. So saying this is like saying the upperend.

Electricity speed depends on the current. Electricity in wires for example  moves very, very slowly, almost as slowly as the minute hand on a clock. Electric current is like a flow of syrup. Even maple syrup moves too fast, so that's not a good analogy.

You tell us not to make up assumptions, yet you see luffy speedblitzing enel and then you say if enel was 1/3 speed of lightning then luffy is suddenly high reelativistic speeds...how can you determine this big jump of difference when

1) We cannot do it for DBZ

2) Approaching relatavistic speeds, the different between 1/3 sol and 1/2.9 sol is HUGE.

So all this and then you suddenly jump to Soru etc. FTL. Even if Enel was 1/3 SOL soru wouldn't even be close to SOL yet alone faster than speed of light...the difference between 1/3 and 1/2.99 SOL already means spedblitzing due to the size of the fighters, if they were earth size or larger, this wouldn't be the case.

So you see, the reason people don't use that logic is because it doesn't make sense at all. Enel is electricity, not lightning, because lightning is "abrupt electric discharge from cloud to cloud or from cloud to earth accompanied by the emission of light". Enel is electricity. not lightning. However, many people recognise him as the lightning because thats the form of electricity that they are familiar with.


----------



## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> chakra, karma, reiatsu = life energy
> 
> everyone has it or they dead



Proof that you're making assumptions out of thin air.
Reiatsu = Spirit energy
Karma= The principle in which rewards or consequences are judged by your deeds and is applied to everyone if you're of the Hindu religion(of course by Jplaya's logic that applies to every single being even in other universes )
Chakra= 7 centers of Spiritual energy in the human body



			
				Flash said:
			
		

> If you dont want flash to have ki then goku doesnt have that type of "speed" flash can steal since he isnt a DC character. Now be a hypocrit and get mad


Yeah you would *expect* me to get mad because it's something that you would do. You're calling a bird a cat which makes no sense.
You're saying that Goku has "types" of speed? What kind of made up nonsense is that? 
You're being the hypocrite now when you told Endless Mike that he doesn't overrule canon and that's basically what you're doing now because of you're extreme fanboyism of Goku.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 4, 2006)

Endless mike said:
			
		

> Phenomenol, will you just give up already? It's obvious to everyone with at least half a brain that you're just arguing out of stuborn biased fanboyism and idiocy. Despite the many times he has done so....Early on.... not in later portrayals. Yes, because it's a bit difficult to speedblitz a guy who is projecting an omnidirectional mindfuck at at least lightspeed from an unknown location.



"Fanboyism?".... You are the one giving and making up things for Flash. Flash in the PAST and to this day takes time and STRAINS to reach light (speedforce). Grodd was right in front of the Flash when he mind raped Flash!... then Grodd even proceeds to punch the Flash. Oh yeah...that's faster than thought reflexes. 



> Yeah, when he concentrates, and knows what to look for, and they have superhuman ki, and they are standing in one place. He has trouble sensing enemies with large ki when they are right next to him but moving fast. He would never sense Flash, who has only normal human ki (which he can't sense at all without concentrating) and moving trillions of times faster than any DBZ character could ever hope to achieve.



Goku does NOT need to concentrate to sense.... Goku will easily sense a Flash right in front of him and that means trouble for Flash.



> You can't define a character only by low - end showings. Besides, Mongul has superspeed, it's one of his powers. He's faster than DBZ characters as well. I'm not even sure of which comic you're referring to either, so I can't make sure you're not hiding information or being dishonest.The fact remains, Flash can move, percieve, react, and fight at many times FTL. Goku can't. Flash can beat Goku just by entering his area. Goku will not even be able to think before Flash steals his speed. Even if by some miracle he was able to fly up in the air with his slow speed, spend 30 seconds powering up a planet destroying blast, and destroy the planet, Flash could just outrun the explosion, or go back in time to before the planet exploded and steal his speed.
> 
> Goku has no chance whatsoever. Accept it, and STFU.



Flash can NOT fight at faster than light.....you continue to make up things about a character that you know NOTHING about. Flash has been tagged by Grodd, Captain Boomerang he's even tripped over a VINE.... you can NOT tell me he fights at FTL speeds when it takes him to long to reach lightspeed (when he merges with Speedforce) while he is RUNNING. Goku will easily blow the damn planet...... up it is over.



> Also, if you want to play this game:
> 
> Goku was tagged by Uub, who has no speed feats whatsoever, so therefore, according to your logic, he can be tagged by anyone.



Uub is the reincarnation of Majin Buu! the most powerful villain in all of DBZ.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

Gohan said:


> All "electricity" doesn't move at the same speed. Just because lightning moves at 1/3 speed of light you assume Enel's electricity does too? Lightning is the speed of a lightning discharge from cloud-to-ground, ground-to-cloud, or cloud-to-cloud. Much different from enels hand to his opponent. And Lightnings speed depends upon the path and speed that the atmospheric plasma advances and that depends upon many factors.



Enel's power was the ability to turn into lightning. That's the exact same type of energy, in the exact same conditions. If anything, he should be faster than normal lightning since the atmosphere in Skypeia is thinner and would impede the lightning's speed less. 



> Also saying lightning moves at 1/3 speed of light is being lenient, in actual reality, the speed is normally no more than half the speed of light BUT is _*usually substantially less*_. So saying this is like saying the upperend.



Which is why I am using it to illustrate the illogic of DBZ fanwhores....



> Electricity speed depends on the current. Electricity in wires for example  moves very, very slowly, almost as slowly as the minute hand on a clock. Electric current is like a flow of syrup. Even maple syrup moves too fast, so that's not a good analogy.



And Enel's power was not electricity in a wire, it was lightning.... as in the kind you see in the sky.



> You tell us not to make up assumptions, yet you see luffy speedblitzing enel and then you say if enel was 1/3 speed of lightning then luffy is suddenly high reelativistic speeds...how can you determine this big jump of difference when
> 
> 1) We cannot do it for DBZ
> 
> 2) Approaching relatavistic speeds, the different between 1/3 sol and 1/2.9 sol is HUGE.



That's just it: I CAN'T.

I never thought someone could be so dense, so I'll spell it out for you:

*THAT WAS NOT A SERIOUS ARGUMENT. I WAS APPLYING DBZ FAN-LOGIC TO ONE PIECE TO SHOW HOW IT DOESN'T WORK.*



> So all this and then you suddenly jump to Soru etc. FTL. Even if Enel was 1/3 SOL soru wouldn't even be close to SOL yet alone faster than speed of light...the difference between 1/3 and 1/2.99 SOL already means spedblitzing due to the size of the fighters, if they were earth size or larger, this wouldn't be the case.



Not really.... if you speed is only less than someone else by 1% or so you can still keep up with them well enough....



> So you see, the reason people don't use that logic is because it doesn't make sense at all. Enel is electricity, not lightning, because lightning is "abrupt electric discharge from cloud to cloud or from cloud to earth accompanied by the emission of light". Enel is electricity. not lightning. However, many people recognise him as the lightning because thats the form of electricity that they are familiar with.



No, he's lightning. Simply because it's his body and not originating in a cloud doesn't suddenly make him a completely different type of energy with completely different properties. He even used clouds for his Raigoh attack.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

Geez Phenomen - LOL, would you just STFU already? Everyone knows you're full of shit.



Phenomenol said:


> "Fanboyism?".... You are the one giving and making up things for Flash. Flash in the PAST and to this day takes time and STRAINS to reach light (speedforce). Grodd was right in front of the Flash when he mind raped Flash!... then Grodd even proceeds to punch the Flash. Oh yeah...that's faster than thought reflexes.



You're an idiot. Flash doesn't "strain" to reach lightspeed after he mastered the speedforce, he can do it easily. Furthermore, I don't even know which comic you're talking about with Grodd, so post a scan or STFU. (In addition it should be mentioned that telepathy is invisible, undetectable unless you're a telepath yourself, and has no warning.... it can't be dodged, anticipated, or outrun). Goku doesn't have telepathic attacks, so I fail to see how this is relevant....



> Goku does NOT need to concentrate to sense.... Goku will easily sense a Flash right in front of him and that means trouble for Flash.



Bullshit. Fucking prove it. I've already explained this to you: He has trouble sensing people with normal human - equivalent ki even if they're standing in one place.... he needs quite a while to concentrate on them. Flash will be moving too fast for him to sense at all, and he'll be dead before he can even process a thought.* DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?*



> Flash can NOT fight at faster than light.....you continue to make up things about a character that you know NOTHING about.



What the fuck? Did you even read the Flash vs. Zoom fight?

Oh, right, that wasn't "fighting" because it wasn't drawn in the same style as DBZ. 

You're a real piece of work, you know that?



> Flash has been tagged by Grodd



With telepathy and when he wasn't even paying attention to Grodd....



> Captain Boomerang



With prep time and a trap.... and he wasn't going anywhere near all - out....



> he's even tripped over a VINE



When there was magic involved (something you conveniantly forgot to mention) 



> .... you can NOT tell me he fights at FTL speeds when it takes him to long to reach lightspeed (when he merges with Speedforce) while he is RUNNING.



Flash vs. Zoom. Dozens of laps around the planet in under a second. Fighting the whole time. You can't define a character by low - end showings and ignore everything else, you biased fucktard.



> Goku will easily blow the damn planet...... up it is over.



*HE WILL NOT HAVE TIME. FLASH WILL STEAL HIS SPEED AND KILL HIM BEFORE HE CAN EVEN REACT.*

Geez.



> Uub is the reincarnation of Majin Buu! the most powerful villain in all of DBZ.



And he has no speed feats whatsoever. Therefore Goku can be tagged by anyone, using your shitty excuse for logic.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 4, 2006)

> Geez Phenomen - LOL, would you just STFU already? Everyone knows you're full of shit.



Actually he brings some points to the thread, so from that point of view not everyone gets annoyed. Stop riding the bandwagon and lower the hostility, to both of you actually lower the hostility. You both make good points at times but you see this as an outright war you take an agressive tone to everything.



> HE WILL NOT HAVE TIME. FLASH WILL STEAL HIS SPEED AND KILL HIM BEFORE HE CAN EVEN REACT.
> 
> Geez.



If the Flash steals Goku's energy, couldn't Goku use his Ki which serves as potential energy and transform it to Ek and move again. Or does speed stealing prevent thought.

Also speed stealing what distance is needed for it? Because cheetah girl laid the smackdown on the flash for a good while and he never stole her speed till she made contact with him.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

gunners said:


> Actually he brings some points to the thread, so from that point of view not everyone gets annoyed. Stop riding the bandwagon and lower the hostility, to both of you actually lower the hostility. You both make good points at times but you see this as an outright war you take an agressive tone to everything.



Well excuse me if I get fed up with all of his annoying BS that he posts over and over and over again.



> If the Flash steals Goku's energy, couldn't Goku use his Ki which serves as potential energy and transform it to Ek and move again. Or does speed stealing prevent thought.



Of course not. The power doesn't work like that. Superman could get his speed stolen despite the fact that he has massive reservoires of internal energy that he can use for locomotion. Even if it did, Flash would have his original speed, plus Goku's speed, and could just kill him even faster.



> Also speed stealing what distance is needed for it? Because cheetah girl laid the smackdown on the flash for a good while and he never stole her speed till she made contact with him.



Later on he needs to be just within a few meters of the target....


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## Phenomenol (Dec 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Geez Phenomen - LOL, would you just STFU already? Everyone knows you're full of shit.You're an idiot. Flash doesn't "strain" to reach lightspeed after he mastered the speedforce, he can do it easily. Furthermore, I don't even know which comic you're talking about with Grodd, so post a scan or STFU. (In addition it should be mentioned that telepathy is invisible, undetectable unless you're a telepath yourself, and has no warning.... it can't be dodged, anticipated, or outrun). Goku doesn't have telepathic attacks, so I fail to see how this is relevant....



Flash takes a while to even REACH the Speedforce he just does not attain it on a whim. I am talking about the comic with Flash and Nightwing getting their asses handed to them by Grodd. Oh yeah need I mention that Flash needed 8 seconds...yes 8..... to charge up to the speed of sound. 



> Bullshit. Fucking prove it. I've already explained this to you: He has trouble sensing people with normal human - equivalent ki even if they're standing in one place.... he needs quite a while to concentrate on them. Flash will be moving too fast for him to sense at all, and he'll be dead before he can even process a thought.* DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?*



Your talking out of your ass...how does Goku have problems sensing ki when he casually sensed a DYING Gohan and Kurrin's Ki miles away? Flash right in front of Goku is going to be a walk in the park. Goku will easily sense Flash's movements.



> What the fuck? Did you even read the Flash vs. Zoom fight?Oh, right, that wasn't "fighting" because it wasn't drawn in the same style as DBZ. You're a real piece of work, you know that? With telepathy and when he wasn't even paying attention to Grodd....With prep time and a trap.... and he wasn't going anywhere near all - out....When there was magic involved (something you conveniantly forgot to mention) Flash vs. Zoom. Dozens of laps around the planet in under a second. Fighting the whole time. You can't define a character by low - end showings and ignore everything else, you biased fucktard.*HE WILL NOT HAVE TIME. FLASH WILL STEAL HIS SPEED AND KILL HIM BEFORE HE CAN EVEN REACT.*Geez.



The Flash vs. Zoom fight was nothing but RUNNING they did not stand their and exchange blows. Even then the Flash needed to steel speed from the other Flash's... so that does not count. Grodd was physically tagging the Flash and he even bit into the Flash's arm. Where is all of that faster than thought reflexes then? Flash can not steel Goku's speed...Goku will blow up the damn planet.



> And he has no speed feats whatsoever. Therefore Goku can be tagged by anyone, using your shitty excuse for logic.



Uub is Majin Buu the most powerful character in DBZ.....


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## Gunners (Dec 4, 2006)

> Well excuse me if I get fed up with all of his annoying BS that he posts over and over and over again.



Just lower the hostility, I am seeing things on both sides and you each make good points time to time there is just too much hostility.



> Of course not. The power doesn't work like that. Superman could get his speed stolen despite the fact that he has massive reservoires of internal energy that he can use for locomotion. Even if it did, Flash would have his original speed, plus Goku's speed, and could just kill him even faster.



And if Superman has his speed stolen why can't he transform internal energy too kinetic?


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## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Flash takes a while to even REACH the Speedforce he just does not attain it on a whim.



If by "a while" you mean "under a second". That's when he's going all out, which he rarely does (but he is for this fight).



> I am talking about the comic with Flash and Nightwing getting their asses handed to them by Grodd. Oh yeah need I mention that Flash needed 8 seconds...yes 8..... to charge up to the speed of sound.



Scans or STFU.

You're obviously leaving something out because when he is really trying he can reach lightspeed in under a second.... Against Cobalt Blue he was reacting in the Attosecond range! Do you have any idea how fast that is?



> Your talking out of your ass...how does Goku have problems sensing ki when he casually sensed a DYING Gohan and Kurrin's Ki miles away?



Because they still had more ki than a normal human being, and their ki was recognizable because he knew them, and because they were staying in one place? He loses track of people like Frieza when they are simply moving around, nowhere near Flash's speed.



> Flash right in front of Goku is going to be a walk in the park. Goku will easily sense Flash's movements.



BULL.
SHIT.

Goku has trouble even sensing Bulma's ki, which is normal human ki, when she is standing in one place. He's not sensing someone with human equivalent speed who is moving faster than light. 



> The Flash vs. Zoom fight was nothing but RUNNING they did not stand their and exchange blows. Even then the Flash needed to steel speed from the other Flash's... so that does not count.



More Bullshit. They were fighting all across the earth, dodging, punching, attacking, parrying, reacting, at a speed that no DBZ character is anywhere near. Furthermore, Flash didn't "steal" any speed, he just used the Speed Formula (which has has memorized and can use whenever he wants if he needs to). Jesse just gave it to him then because he was reluctant to use it, afterwards he can use it whenever he wants.



> Grodd was physically tagging the Flash and he even bit into the Flash's arm.



When he was worried about Nightwing and not paying attention.... and had hit him with telepathy.

STOP DEFINING A CHARACTER BY LOW - END SHOWINGS.



> Where is all of that faster than thought reflexes then? Flash can not steel Goku's speed...Goku will blow up the damn planet.



Of course he can. He just needs to get near him to do so, and Flash is far faster than Goku could ever hope to be. Goku would need to spend several seconds flying up into the air, 15 to 30 seconds powering up a planet destroying blast, and more second to fire it. You think Flash would let him do that? Even if he does, Flash can just go back in time.



> Uub is Majin Buu the most powerful character in DBZ.....



Who has no speed feats whatsoever. He is slow, and he tagged Goku. Deal with it.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

gunners said:


> Just lower the hostility, I am seeing things on both sides and you each make good points time to time there is just too much hostility.



So defining a character by nothing other than low - end showings, making unsupported claims and simply repeating them when they're challenged, arguing about situations and leaving out important details that cast them in a completely different light, and ignoring canon material when it suits him is "making good points"?

If you think that you're as deluded as he is.



> And if Superman has his speed stolen why can't he transform internal energy too kinetic?



Because he can't. That's the way the power works.


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## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Your talking out of your ass...how does Goku have problems sensing ki when he casually sensed a DYING Gohan and Kurrin's Ki miles away? Flash right in front of Goku is going to be a walk in the park. Goku will easily sense Flash's movements.
> .



A high power level like Gohan and Kurrurin going down fast is *not* hard to miss at all.

It's proven that Goku won't be able to sense the Flash in this fight.

What I also don't understand is why the DBZfans are all using Goku destroying the planet as a victory. Goku is too slow to do that, he has a much better chance(which doesn't really count for much) just fighting hand to hand with Wally.

Goku's physical features are not as durable as a planet, he got hurt by  a pan when ChiChi was angry that he let Gohan fight, which is prone to Flash's vibrating straight through his flesh.

First off, Flash does not have Ki. Goku can't sense him. Flash is not a Dragonball character. We don't need to argue about if Goku can sense him or not. He *can't.*

Before Goku even processes a thought, Flash can just go steal his speed, go back in time and steal his speed 100X to just play around with him. 

If Flash wants, he can just vibrate his molecules so rapidly that he becomes invisible to Goku. Since Goku can't sense as Flash has 0 ki whatsoever, he would have no idea where Flash is, and once he moves his pupil a single mm, Flash would have vibrated through his skull.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> If by "a while" you mean "under a second". That's when he's going all out, which he rarely does (but he is for this fight).Scans or STFU.You're obviously leaving something out because when he is really trying he can reach lightspeed in under a second.... Against Cobalt Blue he was reacting in the Attosecond range! Do you have any idea how fast that is?



No it takes his ass MILES to reach lightspeed (speedforce)!!!! Or do I need to post where it took Flash four pages to do it against Zum?




Yeah faster than thought reflexes..... 



> Because they still had more ki than a normal human being, and their ki was recognizable because he knew them, and because they were staying in one place? He loses track of people like Frieza when they are simply moving around, nowhere near Flash's speed.[BULL.SHIT.Goku has trouble even sensing Bulma's ki, which is normal human ki, when she is standing in one place. He's not sensing someone with human equivalent speed who is moving faster than light.



You continue to talk on stuff you know NOTHING about.... Goku states Gohan and Kuririn are both on the "brink of death." that is way lower than any human's ki. Goku NEVER lost track of Freeza, Freeza lost track of Goku because Goku comments on how Freeeza can NOT sense Ki. Goku had to SEARCH for Bulma' Ki throughout the ENTIRE earth... out of every single being on the planet Flash will be right in FRONT of Goku so his movements will be easily sensed.



> More Bullshit. They were fighting all across the earth, dodging, punching, attacking, parrying, reacting, at a speed that no DBZ character is anywhere near. Furthermore, Flash didn't "steal" any speed, he just used the Speed Formula (which has has memorized and can use whenever he wants if he needs to). Jesse just gave it to him then because he was reluctant to use it, afterwards he can use it whenever he wants.When he was worried about Nightwing and not paying attention.... and had hit him with telepathy.STOP DEFINING A CHARACTER BY LOW - END SHOWINGS. Of course he can. He just needs to get near him to do so, and Flash is far faster than Goku could ever hope to be. Goku would need to spend several seconds flying up into the air, 15 to 30 seconds powering up a planet destroying blast, and more second to fire it. You think Flash would let him do that? Even if he does, Flash can just go back in time.



Wrong Flash and Zoom were RUNNING all over the world and then Zoom trips Flash's slow ass...even in the second fight Flash ABSORBED speed to even do that, Flash will have none of that in this fight. Gorilla Grodd tagged the Flash many a time...Flash was going to die if Nightwing did NOT save him, where is the Faster than thought reflexes? Flash can NOT absorb Goku's spped because the speedforce does NOT exist in the DBU, Goku will easily be up in the sky Casually throwing a tennis ball sized planet buster at earth and the fight is over.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> No it takes his ass MILES to reach lightspeed (speedforce)!!!! Or do I need to post where it took Flash four pages to do it against Zum?



Yes, it did take miles. What you neglect to mention, however, is that all of those miles were covered in under a second, since they were moving at super speed around the earth!



> *snip*
> 
> Yeah faster than thought reflexes.....



Yeah, here we go. I knew you were leaving something out. Considering you have to use an *INJURED* Flash for your arguments, they hold no water whatsoever.

Should I mention when he evacuated that city he reached over 99% lightspeed instantly? Or recently in Infinite Crisis when he ran from his house to a city hundreds of miles away in under a second?

You know, if you weren't such a damn hypocrite and you applied your own logic to your precious DBZ characters, you would come to the conclusion that they can't destroy planets, because 99% of DBZ ki blasts do not destroy planets.... all that would be needed to prove that DBZ characters cannot destroy planets, using your logic, is showing a ki blast hitting a planet and not destroying it. 



> You continue to talk on stuff you know NOTHING about.... Goku states Gohan and Kuririn are both on the "brink of death." that is way lower than any human's ki.



Prove it....



> Goku NEVER lost track of Freeza, Freeza lost track of Goku because Goku comments on how Freeeza can NOT sense Ki.



No, when they were fighting Frieza appeared right behind Goku and he surprised him, he didn't expect it. Cell and Buu have done the same thing.... I think Vegeta did too.



> Goku had to SEARCH for Bulma' Ki throughout the ENTIRE earth... out of every single being on the planet Flash will be right in FRONT of Goku so his movements will be easily sensed.



Not when he's not even familiar with Flash's ki and Flash is moving far too fast for him to detect.... even if he could sense him Flash would be moving so fast that by the time he processed where he thought Flash was, Flash would be 100 miles away.



> Wrong Flash and Zoom were RUNNING all over the world and then Zoom trips Flash's slow ass...



Are we even reading the same fight? At first Zoom tripped Flash because Zoom was FASTER than Flash. Then Flash uses the speed formula and matches his speed, and they are punching, parrying, dodging, and FIGHTING all across the earth.

Just becuase it's not drawn in exactly the same style as DBZ doesn't mean it's not fighting.



> even in the second fight Flash ABSORBED speed to even do that, Flash will have none of that in this fight.



Wrong, Jesse simply gave him the speed formula, which he later learned to use himself at will.



> Gorilla Grodd tagged the Flash many a time...Flash was going to die if Nightwing did NOT save him, where is the Faster than thought reflexes?



Because Flash was INJURED, and Grodd was using telepathy.



> Flash can NOT absorb Goku's spped because the speedforce does NOT exist in the DBU



And yet Flash has DBU ki? 

Speedforce absorbs kinetic energy. Anything that moves has kinetic energy. You're really getting pathetic now.



> Goku will easily be up in the sky Casually throwing a tennis ball sized planet buster at earth and the fight is over.



Goku is not Brolly, he needs to charge up for a few seconds to create an attack that powerful, and he would not even be up in the air fast enough. Even if we say he can reach the maximum known speed of a DBZ character (1/898th lightspeed) instantly, which is not supported at all, then Flash would still reach him way before he got even a few inches off of the ground, since Flash can reach lightspeed in under a second.


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## Gunners (Dec 4, 2006)

> So defining a character by nothing other than low - end showings, making unsupported claims and simply repeating them when they're challenged, arguing about situations and leaving out important details that cast them in a completely different light, and ignoring canon material when it suits him is "making good points"?
> 
> If you think that you're as deluded as he is.



Sometimes it is like that yes, and sometimes points are made which is why I said ''some of the time both of you make good points''. Regardless of whether they are low showings or high showings lower the hostility as it isn't needed. Half the reason why this goes on is how you present the infomation.

If you are argueing and insulting someone they are not going to see the points you are making they will see the insults and it will go back and forth. If you make your point without insults people are more likely too reach a balance.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

gunners said:


> Sometimes it is like that yes, and sometimes points are made which is why I said ''some of the time both of you make good points''. Regardless of whether they are low showings or high showings lower the hostility as it isn't needed. Half the reason why this goes on is how you present the infomation.



I've presented the information so many times by now it's obvious he's never going to listen. That's why it's so frustrating.



> If you are argueing and insulting someone they are not going to see the points you are making they will see the insults and it will go back and forth.



Except he didn't see my points at first, at all! No matter how much evidence I gave and how much explaining I did, he just was so blinded and stubborn he wouldn't listen.

I tried being polite, I gave him his chances, but he just wouldn't listen.



> If you make your point without insults people are more likely too reach a balance.



Not Phenom.


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## jplaya2023 (Dec 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Prove it....



"Sakura new move??"


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## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> "Sakura new move??"



Uh - huh. And how does this prove that their kis were less than a normal human?


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## jplaya2023 (Dec 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Uh - huh. And how does this prove that their kis were less than a normal human?



well for one gohan was paralyzed so his ki was problably at 1 or something and krilian was beaten to death. But your dense ass wont see that right


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## Phenomenol (Dec 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Yes, it did take miles. What you neglect to mention, however, is that all of those miles were covered in under a second, since they were moving at super speed around the earth!Yeah, here we go. I knew you were leaving something out. Considering you have to use an *INJURED* Flash for your arguments, they hold no water whatsoever.Should I mention when he evacuated that city he reached over 99% lightspeed instantly? Or recently in Infinite Crisis when he ran from his house to a city hundreds of miles away in under a second?You know, if you weren't such a damn hypocrite and you applied your own logic to your precious DBZ characters, you would come to the conclusion that they can't destroy planets, because 99% of DBZ ki blasts do not destroy planets.... all that would be needed to prove that DBZ characters cannot destroy planets, using your logic, is showing a ki blast hitting a planet and not destroying it.



No, those miles were not covered in seconds your chatting crap.... Gorilla Grodd INJURED the Flash..I thought he had faster than thought reflexes. Characters weaker than Goku are able to tagg the Flash Goku will surely kill him.




> even if he could sense him Flash would be moving so fast that by the time he processed where he thought Flash was, Flash would be 100 miles away.



Your chatting crap!..... Dodging a light speed attack has nothing to do with going the speed of light or more, it has to do with their detection abilities. DB characters can sense people dimensions away long before the time it would take the light to reach them from that place. So, if a lightspeed attack comes at them, they can detect it en route to them and have a chance to dodge it, even if they move a fraction of the speed of light. Goku's senses are BEYOND that of the flash.




> Are we even reading the same fight? At first Zoom tripped Flash because Zoom was FASTER than Flash. Then Flash uses the speed formula and matches his speed, and they are punching, parrying, dodging, and FIGHTING all across the earth.Just becuase it's not drawn in exactly the same style as DBZ doesn't mean it's not fighting.Wrong, Jesse simply gave him the speed formula, which he later learned to use himself at will.Because Flash was INJURED, and Grodd was using telepathy.And yet Flash has DBU ki? Speedforce absorbs kinetic energy. Anything that moves has kinetic energy. You're really getting pathetic now. Goku is not Brolly, he needs to charge up for a few seconds to create an attack that powerful, and he would not even be up in the air fast enough. Even if we say he can reach the maximum known speed of a DBZ character (1/898th lightspeed) instantly, which is not supported at all, then Flash would still reach him way before he got even a few inches off of the ground, since Flash can reach lightspeed in under a second.



The Flash was AUGMENTED from BOTH of his fights with Zoom, he does not get the chance to absorb speed. Ki is in the DC universe everyone has it and so does the Flash. Kidd Buu CASUALLY shot a planet buster and Vegeta CASUALLY dismissed it with his OWN planet buster. Goku will do the same.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

You have yet to even support this assertion. Generally a dying superbeing is still stronger than a healthy normal being.

Evidence that this is true in DBZ: When Goku was dying and being crushed by Oozaru Vegeta, he still survived that, while a normal human would have been smashed to pulp.


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## jplaya2023 (Dec 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> You have yet to even support this assertion. Generally a dying superbeing is still stronger than a healthy normal being.
> 
> Evidence that this is true in DBZ: When Goku was dying and being crushed by Oozaru Vegeta, he still survived that, while a normal human would have been smashed to pulp.






idiot

goku's bone's were crushed his body damages

gohan has his beck broken 

now pretend you dont see the difference


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## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

gunners said:


> Sometimes it is like that yes, and sometimes points are made which is why I said ''some of the time both of you make good points''. Regardless of whether they are low showings or high showings lower the hostility as it isn't needed. Half the reason why this goes on is how you present the infomation.
> 
> If you are argueing and insulting someone they are not going to see the points you are making they will see the insults and it will go back and forth. If you make your point without insults people are more likely too reach a balance.



Exactly. That's how I debated peacefully against Dr Boskov in Zerg vs Flood!

But seriously, let's go over the points and try to get this damn point across once and for all without repeating things over and over.

This will decide the victor of this battle

1. Who is faster, Flash or Goku? Flash is faster than the process of thought, faster than what Goku has demonstrated. This is at the beginning of the fight, and Flash is going all out. If you can't debate against this, Flash is faster.

2. Can Goku use IT? Nope, goku can't use IT in this battle because there is no ki signal for him to trace. Flash does not have ki because he is not a DB character and DCU doesn't revolve around the ki principle. If you can't present an argument for this, Goku can't use IT for this battle.

3. Can't Goku blow up the planet= Game over? No, Goku would have to go up in the air and charge a planet buster for about 10-15 seconds at least which is way too much time for Flash to just steal his speed or vibrate him to pieces. Goku blowing the planet up has been proven too slow. If you can't debate against this  point, Goku can't blow up the planet.

4. Is goku as durable as a planet? No, Goku is not as durable as a planet as he is hit with punches that can cause earthquakes at best. Therefore, he is open to Flash's infinite mass punch which punch him at lightspeed at a heat of 350,000 degrees Farenheit. If you can't debate against this, Goku can be killed by this attack.

5. Can Goku destroy Flash with one ki blast? It's possible, but there are many factors to consider.
1. Goku would have to point his hand to Flash and fire. It takes about half a second to do this which is more than enough time for Flash to go behind Goku at superspeed and vibrate his lungs out.
2. (Considering an impossible hypothetical situation) If Goku's ki blast gets to Flash and is about to hit him, Flash can vibrate straight through the ki blast as it is a solid object.
3. Another alternative is that if Goku fires many ki blasts, Flash can just go back in time to when the fight started and he will have prior knowledge to Goku's attacks and strategies.
If you can't debate against this, Flash can avoid Ki blasts.

With all these in mind:
1. Flash can go invisible and Goku will not be able to sense him
2. Goku can get his speed stolen as soon as the fight begins
3. Goku does not have the ability or time to use IT and planet destroying attacks
4. Goku's ki blasts are not fast enough to catch Flash as he as many ways to get around it
5. Goku's body is not even close to being as durable as a planet, therefore he is open to Flash's Infinite Mass punch and molecule vibration.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> No, those miles were not covered in seconds your chatting crap....



Wrong.... it only took seconds, they were zooming by Beijing one second and over the Atlantic ocean the next.



> Gorilla Grodd INJURED the Flash..I thought he had faster than thought reflexes. Characters weaker than Goku are able to tagg the Flash Goku will surely kill him.



See, this is your bullshit logic. According to you, if a character is beaten by someone, then he cannot beat anyone stronger than that, even if he was not going all - out, was taken by surprise by an unorthodox attack (telepathy), or there are other circumstances. Are you ignoring all the enemies Flash has beaten that are way stronger than any DBZ character?

Using your logic: Characters who have hurt Goku have hit planets with ki blasts and not destroyed them. Therefore Goku can't destroy planets.



> Your chatting crap!..... Dodging a light speed attack has nothing to do with going the speed of light or more, it has to do with their detection abilities. DB characters can sense people dimensions away long before the time it would take the light to reach them from that place.



Yes, if they concentrate, and person is in the same place, and their ki is familiar and strong so they know what to look for.... not if they are moving at FTL speed right next to them and have barely noticeable ki.



> So, if a lightspeed attack comes at them, they can detect it en route to them and have a chance to dodge it, even if they move a fraction of the speed of light.



Which would be a good point, if said attack had powerful ki behind it, and the ki was familiar to them, and it started far enough away so that they had time to react to it, and it travelled in a straight line.

*NONE OF WHICH APPLY TO THE FLASH.*



> Goku's senses are BEYOND that of the flash.



Which won't help him one bit when he is killed before he can react.



> The Flash was AUGMENTED from BOTH of his fights with Zoom, he does not get the chance to absorb speed.



He doesn't need to. He just uses the speed formula which he can use at will....



> Ki is in the DC universe everyone has it and so does the Flash.



Except what's your proof that Goku can sense DCU ki, which is fundamentally different from DBU ki?

Also, anything that moves has kinetic energy, by definition. Flash can steal that.



> Kidd Buu CASUALLY shot a planet buster and Vegeta CASUALLY dismissed it with his OWN planet buster.



I already refuted this bullshit. Vegeta's attack did not have to be a planet buster to deflect Buu's attack, it just had to have enough kinetic energy to direct it away from earth. DBZ ki blasts do not do their damage through kinetic energy, they are like exploding bombs or vaporizing beams.



> Goku will do the same.



Is this before or after he gets his head exploded by vibration before he can even process a thought?


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## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> idiot
> 
> goku's bone's were crushed his body damages
> 
> ...



No, I don't see the difference, since I don't know what a "beck" is.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 4, 2006)

> Wrong.... it only took seconds, they were zooming by Beijing one second and over the Atlantic ocean the next.See, this is your bullshit logic. According to you, if a character is beaten by someone, then he cannot beat anyone stronger than that, even if he was not going all - out, was taken by surprise by an unorthodox attack (telepathy), or there are other circumstances. Are you ignoring all the enemies Flash has beaten that are way stronger than any DBZ character?Using your logic: Characters who have hurt Goku have hit planets with ki blasts and not destroyed them. Therefore Goku can't destroy planets.



Post the scan of them going everywhere it seconds? Flash has beaten nobody but second rate characters. Goku has faced more powerful characters in his career.



> Yes, if they concentrate, and person is in the same place, and their ki is familiar and strong so they know what to look for.... not if they are moving at FTL speed right next to them and have barely noticeable ki.Which would be a good point, if said attack had powerful ki behind it, and the ki was familiar to them, and it started far enough away so that they had time to react to it, and it travelled in a straight line.
> 
> *NONE OF WHICH APPLY TO THE FLASH.*



The Flash has SPIRIT!!!!!! Goku can sense his slow ass...




> He doesn't need to. He just uses the speed formula which he can use at will....Except what's your proof that Goku can sense DCU ki, which is fundamentally different from DBU ki?Also, anything that moves has kinetic energy, by definition. Flash can steal that.I already refuted this bullshit. Vegeta's attack did not have to be a planet buster to deflect Buu's attack, it just had to have enough kinetic energy to direct it away from earth. DBZ ki blasts do not do their damage through kinetic energy, they are like exploding bombs or vaporizing beams.



Ki is SPIRIT energy as long as you are alive and not a damn android Goku can sense the Flash sorry ass. Flash steals kinetic energy, Goku's speed is really an action of his Ki and i do not believe flash can steal that. Wrong in DBZ if your power is not equal or greater you can NOT stop an incoming attack. Vegeta's blast was planet destroying......


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## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

Alright guys stop the long posts as you're starting to go off into goku's and flash's feats in a neverending cycle. 

*Read my last post and then we can end this argument once and for all. NOW.*


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## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Post the scan of them going everywhere it seconds? Flash has beaten nobody but second rate characters. Goku has faced more powerful characters in his career.



Oh, really? Like the Anti - Monitor, who destroyed thousands of universes?

The Black Flash, who is the very incarnation of Death?

Zoom, who is even faster than the Flash himself and can travel through time?

I'd like to see Goku take on one of those guys.

Oh, and as for the scans, look:



They're going across miles and miles of terrain way too fast for anyone to see or detect them.



> The Flash has SPIRIT!!!!!! Goku can sense his slow ass...



You're calling the fucking Flash slow? Compared to a guy who isn't even confirmed to go sound speed over slow distances? Now this is rich.

Goku CANNOT sense unfamiliar ki signals when they are as weak as normal human ki and moving around him due to parallax way faster than anything he has ever experienced before. Even if he could, he wouldn't be able to react in time (Sasuke vs. Rock Lee, anyone)?



> Ki is SPIRIT energy as long as you are alive and not a damn android Goku can sense the Flash sorry ass.



This brings up another thing. Androids 17, 18, and 20 used to be humans, and still had human body parts. Therefore, they were alive, but they still couldn't be sensed?

LOL, I guess DBZ ki senses aren't as infallible as you make them out to be.



> Flash steals kinetic energy, Goku's speed is really an action of his Ki and i do not believe flash can steal that.



Are you a total idiot or something? Wait, stupid question.

DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT KINETIC ENERGY IS?

Kinetic energy is energy from motion. Anything that moves has kinetic energy. Goku moves, he can have his speed stolen.

The only type of speed that Flash can't steal is temporal based speed, like Zoom's. That's because Zoom is not actually moving that fast, he is manipulating time to make it seem like he's moving that fast.



> Wrong in DBZ if your power is not equal or greater you can NOT stop an incoming attack.



Wrong, you can't completely negate it, but you can deflect it or otherwise knock it away. Goku was weaker than Frieza when they first started fighting and yet he was deflecting Frieza's attacks.


----------



## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

This will decide the victor of this battle

1. Who is faster, Flash or Goku? Flash is faster than the process of thought, faster than what Goku has demonstrated. This is at the beginning of the fight, and Flash is going all out. If you can't debate against this, Flash is faster.

2. Can Goku use IT? Nope, goku can't use IT in this battle because there is no ki signal for him to trace. Flash does not have ki because he is not a DB character and DCU doesn't revolve around the ki principle. If you can't present an argument for this, Goku can't use IT for this battle.

3. Can't Goku blow up the planet= Game over? No, Goku would have to go up in the air and charge a planet buster for about 10-15 seconds at least which is way too much time for Flash to just steal his speed or vibrate him to pieces. Goku blowing the planet up has been proven too slow. If you can't debate against this point, Goku can't blow up the planet.

4. Is goku as durable as a planet? No, Goku is not as durable as a planet as he is hit with punches that can cause earthquakes at best. Therefore, he is open to Flash's infinite mass punch which punch him at lightspeed at a heat of 350,000 degrees Farenheit. If you can't debate against this, Goku can be killed by this attack.

5. Can Goku destroy Flash with one ki blast? It's possible, but there are many factors to consider.
1. Goku would have to point his hand to Flash and fire. It takes about half a second to do this which is more than enough time for Flash to go behind Goku at superspeed and vibrate his lungs out.
2. (Considering an impossible hypothetical situation) If Goku's ki blast gets to Flash and is about to hit him, Flash can vibrate straight through the ki blast as it is a solid object.
3. Another alternative is that if Goku fires many ki blasts, Flash can just go back in time to when the fight started and he will have prior knowledge to Goku's attacks and strategies.
If you can't debate against this, Flash can avoid Ki blasts.

With all these in mind:
1. Flash can go invisible and Goku will not be able to sense him
2. Goku can get his speed stolen as soon as the fight begins
3. Goku does not have the ability or time to use IT and planet destroying attacks
4. Goku's ki blasts are not fast enough to catch Flash as he as many ways to get around it
5. Goku's body is not even close to being as durable as a planet, therefore he is open to Flash's Infinite Mass punch and molecule vibration.

There it is again. Endless Mike if you keep debating against him in this way, you know it's never going to end. Why waste your time and energy? Put it in this post.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> No, I don't see the difference, since I don't know what a "beck" is.



damn server and its neck


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

You know he's not going to listen, he's just going to spew out some more bullshit about Goku sensing Flash and stopping him, or firing a tennis - ball sized planet buster in under a second, or pointing out Flash's low showings and saying that means he can never do any better than that....


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> damn server and its neck



Where was it stated his neck was broken?


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Where was it stated his neck was broken?



do you even read DBZ???????

Naruto Gekitou Ninja Taisen EX


Naruto Gekitou Ninja Taisen EX


----------



## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> damn server and its neck



In that scan, it took a while for Goku to notice a dying Krilin and Gohan. He didn't instantly pick them up.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 4, 2006)

Space said:


> In that scan, it took a while for Goku to notice a dying Krilin and Gohan. He didn't instantly pick them up.



the hell he was scanning for PL's on the planet problably from highest to lowest. Since gohan had basically no ki and krilian couldnt move their ki would be much lower


----------



## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> the hell he was scanning for PL's on the planet problably from highest to lowest. Since gohan had basically no ki and krilian couldnt move their ki would be much lower



That still doesn't prove anything. Goku can't sense the Flash since he has no ki. You don't overrule Gardner Fox and his canon.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 4, 2006)

Space said:


> That still doesn't prove anything. Goku can't sense the Flash since he has no ki. You don't overrule Gardner Fox and his canon.



flash cant speak goku's speed because speed is interprited differently in each universe. You dont overrule AT and his canon

get mad at it


----------



## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> flash cant speak goku's speed because speed is interprited differently in each universe. You dont overrule AT and his canon
> 
> get mad at it



How does Goku have different speed? AT never said anything of the sort. You're overriding your own fanboyismed author's canon.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 4, 2006)

Space said:


> You're overriding your own fanboyismed author's canon.



Irony X 10 

flash has life energy because he's alive

life energy = ki

goku vs flash is a walk in the park for goku


R.I.P. fast man


----------



## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> Irony X 10
> 
> flash has life energy because he's alive
> 
> ...



.....And you're inputting Ki into Flash...why? Did Gardner Fox state that Flash has ki or anything even remotely close to it? You're inputting Ki into Flash's ass.

Ex: With the example of Videl being able to fly, all humans in the DBU have the ability to fly if they concentrate and know how to utilize their ki.

Can humans in the DCU fly over the place? You sound so ridiculous.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 4, 2006)

Ki is life force, unless Flash is dead or not organic he has a ki signature.

Anyway something I remembered, if Goku is powering up, how could the flash get close to Goku, apart from being fast he is pretty weak. If the characters let of their ki it makes it hard for those in the area to move doesn't it?

Like orignal piccollo vs Kid Goku, or was that filler?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 4, 2006)

> Oh, really? Like the Anti - Monitor, who destroyed thousands of universes?The Black Flash, who is the very incarnation of Death?Zoom, who is even faster than the Flash himself and can travel through time?I'd like to see Goku take on one of those guys.Oh, and as for the scans, look:
> 
> 
> 
> They're going across miles and miles of terrain way too fast for anyone to see or detect them.



Flash died and didn't beat the anti-monitor. last time i checked AM came right back. Superboy Prime, E2 Superman, Alexander Luthor, Dr Light, and Darkseid defeated him though. Zoom got KO'd by a BLIND Wonder Woman..but yeah Flash's villains are so great. One Of Goku's WEAKEST rogues can STOP time. Your scan says NOTHING about covering miles in seconds...fabrication and fanboyism on your part.



> You're calling the fucking Flash slow? Compared to a guy who isn't even confirmed to go sound speed over slow distances? Now this is rich. Goku CANNOT sense unfamiliar ki signals when they are as weak as normal human ki and moving around him due to parallax way faster than anything he has ever experienced before. Even if he could, he wouldn't be able to react in time (Sasuke vs. Rock Lee, anyone)?



Your argument is weak....Goku can sense ANYBODY's Spirit! and Sharingan is NO comparison to the sensing abilities in Dragonball. 



> This brings up another thing. Androids 17, 18, and 20 used to be humans, and still had human body parts. Therefore, they were alive, but they still couldn't be sensed?LOL, I guess DBZ ki senses aren't as infallible as you make them out to be.



They were dead! note Gohan saying that they have no spirit so they could not be sensed.



> Are you a total idiot or something? Wait, stupid question.
> 
> DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT KINETIC ENERGY IS?
> 
> ...



Cause Son Goku isn't governed by the speedforce. the only reason Flash can still speed from people is because the speedforce governs their movement and he happens to tap into the speedforce. the speedforce doesn't govern anything Goku does.


----------



## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

gunners said:


> Ki is life force, unless Flash is dead or not organic he has a ki signature.


You're not understanding that Flash isn't a DB character... he does not revolve around that principle. You're saying he has ki when Gardner Fox(creator) didn't give him anything of the sort.



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Anyway something I remembered, if Goku is powering up, how could the flash get close to Goku, apart from being fast he is pretty weak. If the characters let of their ki it makes it hard for those in the area to move doesn't it?


No Flash  has the speed force aura which protects him when he's going at superspeeds... so if he goes through buildings it won't push him back at all- he would pass through it like he was normally running.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> do you even read DBZ???????
> 
> *snip*



And yet he was just fine a few chapters later....

A normal human would have been torn in half by that kick.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

gunners said:


> Ki is life force, unless Flash is dead or not organic he has a ki signature.
> 
> Anyway something I remembered, if Goku is powering up, how could the flash get close to Goku, apart from being fast he is pretty weak. If the characters let of their ki it makes it hard for those in the area to move doesn't it?
> 
> Like orignal piccollo vs Kid Goku, or was that filler?



If he can run fast enough to reach escape velocity, and his IMP has the momentum of a white dwarf star, somehow I don't see that being a problem.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 4, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Flash died and didn't beat the anti-monitor. last time i checked AM came right back.



Only because Wally's vibration frequency wasn't the right kind like Barry's. He sure did better than any DBZ character could ever do.



> Superboy Prime, E2 Superman, Alexander Luthor, Dr Light, and Darkseid defeated him though.



And previously all of their efforts couldn't even break his armor, but Flash tore it to pieces.



> Zoom got KO'd by a BLIND Wonder Woman..



When he wasn't being serious at all and just testing her.... STOP DEFINING CHARACTERS BY LOW - END SHOWINGS ONLY.



> but yeah Flash's villains are so great. One Of Goku's WEAKEST rogues can STOP time.



For about 30 seconds, and he spontaneously loses his powers and can't even hurt his opponents when it's stopped.... and Goku never even fought him so you're spewing more bullshit.



> Your scan says NOTHING about covering miles in seconds...fabrication and fanboyism on your part.



It's obvious to anyone with at least half a brain cell. One moment they're leaving the shore going onto the ocean, the next moment they've crossed the ocean and are in the city.... In the next panel they talk about how they just passed Beijing a second ago.... Flash was reacting fast enough to recognize it.



> Your argument is weak....Goku can sense ANYBODY's Spirit! and Sharingan is NO comparison to the sensing abilities in Dragonball.



Not only a no - limits fallacy, but a no - limits fallacy that is proven to be false. Goku cannot sense someone if they are hiding their ki, he cannot sense the androids (who have biological components and used to be human), he cannot sense people from other planets and dimensions unless he concentrates and knows what their ki feels like so he knows what to look for.... even if those conditions are met he can't feel people on planets that are too far away (that's why he had to teleport to King Kai's planet to find New Namek). He even loses track of people with strong ki moving fast around him.... Flash has much weaker and difficult ki to sense than them and he moves much faster.

The Sharingan example was to show that even if he senses him, it's no use if he can't react in time.



> They were dead! note Gohan saying that they have no spirit so they could not be sensed.



Dead? 

They sure didn't seem dead to me....

How could Dr. Gero think if his brain in that brain tank was dead?



> Cause Son Goku isn't governed by the speedforce. the only reason Flash can still speed from people is because the speedforce governs their movement and he happens to tap into the speedforce. the speedforce doesn't govern anything Goku does.



In that case, Goku's ki powers won't work in the Flash's universe or affect him at all.


----------



## Kai (Dec 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> If he can run fast enough to reach escape velocity, and his IMP has the momentum of a white dwarf star, somehow I don't see that being a problem.



Which I've already stated has a heat of 350,000 degrees farenheit and at lightspeed.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 4, 2006)

7 seconds to travel to and back so he traveled roughly 1,500 miles in 3 seconds or less assuming he was going faster on his charge. So he was going roughly 1/370 the speed of light while injured. So Injured it would take Flash roughly 50 seconds to circle the earth once and 6mins and 38secs for 8 times. Gotenks spent 7 or 10 mins I can't remember and I can't find the disc with all my scans so until someone posts a scan to verify or un-verify we'll go with 7mins.

So Injured Flash during one of his weaker showings is faster than Gotenks.


----------



## RoyalCreed (Dec 4, 2006)

no i think the flash is way to fast for goku to even c  didnt he go around the world in like a second or 2?


----------



## RoyalCreed (Dec 4, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> 7 seconds to travel to and back so he traveled roughly 1,500 miles in 3 seconds or less assuming he was going faster on his charge. So he was going roughly 1/370 the speed of light while injured. So Injured it would take Flash roughly 50 seconds to circle the earth once and 6mins and 38secs for 8 times. Gotenks spent 7 or 10 mins I can't remember and I can't find the disc with all my scans so until someone posts a scan to verify or un-verify we'll go with 7mins.
> 
> So Injured Flash during one of his weaker showings is faster than Gotenks.



 i ment this  :] ^^^


----------



## Crimson King (Dec 4, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> *snip*



Well, if you want the fight to be low end only, then...

-Goku had trouble lifting 40 tons

-A rock going subsonic (hell, sub everything) smacked into his head and it hurts him

-He had to go SSJ to knock aside rocks (during the wait for the Cell games)

-It took him over half a year to run 1 million miles, where Flash could do it in seconds or less.

-He cant' even fly supersonic since he makes no sinicbooms when he flys

Want more?


----------



## atom (Dec 4, 2006)

> Now this is something that Jplaya or Jaydaime should say when they're at the end of their rope.
> 
> Aside from even if this noncanon material is included, Goku going SSJ4 is much too much time. don't think about including that in this fight.


As ignorant as I am, I know my limit


----------



## Gohan (Dec 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Enel's power was the ability to turn into lightning. That's the exact same type of energy, in the exact same conditions. If anything, he should be faster than normal lightning since the atmosphere in Skypeia is thinner and would impede the lightning's speed less.



except is isn't lightning...i just gave you a definition of lightning, and you still don't get it...




> Which is why I am using it to illustrate the illogic of DBZ fanwhores....



No...your demonstration of the illogic of DBZ fanwhores was to claim that they take statements too literally, not concerning the speed of lightning.



> And Enel's power was not electricity in a wire, it was lightning.... as in the kind you see in the sky.



The speed of lightning proportional to the current remains. And lightning isn't enel, enel just calls himself that. lightning is the discharge from cloud-cloud or cloud-ground or ground-cloud, enel is just electricity trying to imitate lightning. Discharge from these points is what makes lightning fast... 
Even nami, a normal human, was able to see Enel and warn him about it to luffy when Enel was attacking. Nami and usoop had time ot chat while Enel lightning attack was reaching sanji when he encountered enel for the second time...




> That's just it: I CAN'T.
> 
> I never thought someone could be so dense, so I'll spell it out for you:
> 
> *THAT WAS NOT A SERIOUS ARGUMENT. I WAS APPLYING DBZ FAN-LOGIC TO ONE PIECE TO SHOW HOW IT DOESN'T WORK.*



Actually, your making up stuff now. Even though it wasn't a serious argument, the whole point in it was to show that you can't take statements literally from the characters...not the groundless estimation of jumps in character powers/speed. That is why your example is stupid, because if you try to prove one point, the rest of the example has to be at least true, for that point to work. Its like saying, hey goku was able to dodge rocks at the start of db so now he should be FTL due to the jump in power, as opposed to goku was able to dodge rocks at the start db so now he should be at least more than sound speed etc...



> Not really.... if you speed is only less than someone else by 1% or so you can still keep up with them well enough....



Wrong. Not for relatavistic speeds it cant. You know why? Its because a persons vision and sight are you going to say approaches more than 100m? At relativistic speeds at a fraction of a second you can reach much much more than even a km, thats why speed blitzing in relatavistic speeds occur even in the slightest fraction of lightspeed. In a fraction of a second you'll be miles ahead of them, and this is a large difference concerning the size of the things that are doing this speed. If they were all the size of the earth and such, then relativistic speeds dont become too big at all when comparing the slightest increase/decrease.




> No, he's lightning. Simply because it's his body and not originating in a cloud doesn't suddenly make him a completely different type of energy with completely different properties. He even used clouds for his Raigoh attack.



It does, because thats what affects the speed depending on how it discharges. So why is 'electricity' in a wire not lightning? because by your logic, its the still the same type of energy and has the same properties...And we all know the speed of 'electricity' in a wire moves extremely slow and only fast if the energy is flowing in an electric circuit. Also lightning isn't even energy its a plasma.


----------



## Kai (Dec 5, 2006)

Crimson King said:


> -It took him over half a year to run 1 million miles, where Flash could do it in seconds or less.



Not to mention he didn't even run the whole thing. He jumped over lots of the curves and even flew.



			
				Crimson King said:
			
		

> Want more?


It won't be enough for them


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 5, 2006)

Gohan said:


> except is isn't lightning...i just gave you a definition of lightning, and you still don't get it...



Except the key part of your definition relies on the process that generates the lightning and its location. It has nothing to do with the type of energy, and thus would not affect the speed.

Just because Enel's lightning isn't generated naturally in clouds, you suddenly think it's millions of times slower?



> No...your demonstration of the illogic of DBZ fanwhores was to claim that they take statements too literally, not concerning the speed of lightning.



Not only that, but to show that the kind of "logic" they use would come up with ridiculous conclusions when applied to other universes.



> The speed of lightning proportional to the current remains. And lightning isn't enel, enel just calls himself that. lightning is the discharge from cloud-cloud or cloud-ground or ground-cloud, enel is just electricity trying to imitate lightning. Discharge from these points is what makes lightning fast...



So according to you, lightning travels relativistic speed because it is in clouds? If it happened anywhere other than a cloud, it wouldn't be as fast?

You do realize that scientists have created lightning artificially in laboratories at speeds even greater than lightning in nature, right? No clouds there.



> Even nami, a normal human, was able to see Enel and warn him about it to luffy when Enel was attacking. Nami and usoop had time ot chat while Enel lightning attack was reaching sanji when he encountered enel for the second time...



[DBZ fan logic]Then that obviously means that Nami, Ussop, and Sanji are near lightspeed![/DBZ fan logic]



> Actually, your making up stuff now. Even though it wasn't a serious argument, the whole point in it was to show that you can't take statements literally from the characters...not the groundless estimation of jumps in character powers/speed.



Which are two things that DBZtards do.



> That is why your example is stupid, because if you try to prove one point, the rest of the example has to be at least true, for that point to work. Its like saying, hey goku was able to dodge rocks at the start of db so now he should be FTL due to the jump in power, as opposed to goku was able to dodge rocks at the start db so now he should be at least more than sound speed etc...



And both of those are fallacious, since there is no way to quantify exactly how much faster he's gotten.



> Wrong. Not for relatavistic speeds it cant. You know why? Its because a persons vision and sight are you going to say approaches more than 100m? At relativistic speeds at a fraction of a second you can reach much much more than even a km, thats why speed blitzing in relatavistic speeds occur even in the slightest fraction of lightspeed. In a fraction of a second you'll be miles ahead of them, and this is a large difference concerning the size of the things that are doing this speed. If they were all the size of the earth and such, then relativistic speeds dont become too big at all when comparing the slightest increase/decrease.



Not quite. Let's say you can move 100 km in one millisecond, and your opponent can move 110 km in one millisecond. If he is chasing after you, he'll catch up to you, but you still have the majority of a millisecond to prepare for him, which should be enough if you can react that fast.



> It does, because thats what affects the speed depending on how it discharges. So why is 'electricity' in a wire not lightning? because by your logic, its the still the same type of energy and has the same properties...And we all know the speed of 'electricity' in a wire moves extremely slow and only fast if the energy is flowing in an electric circuit. Also lightning isn't even energy its a plasma.



Stop trying to obfuscate the issue. The only difference between Enel's lightning and natural lightning is that the latter comes from a cloud, while the former comes from Enel's body. This doesn't change the properties of it at all.

Electricity in a wire is completely different, it moves through conductors inside the wire instead of jumping through the air from one charge to another of the opposite polarity.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 5, 2006)

Space said:


> Not to mention he didn't even run the whole thing. He jumped over lots of the curves and even flew.
> 
> 
> It won't be enough for them




he also took multiple rest and slept as well. Your point is flawed


----------



## Kai (Dec 5, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> he also took multiple rest and slept as well. Your point is flawed



You didn't *flaw* anything. That argument would go back to Crimson King because he said it took Goku half a year to cross a million miles.

Jplaya you're much worse than when you started out... Instead of debating you're finding one sentence lines and correcting little mistakes that are irrevelant to the fight. You know Flash wins, just stop trying to prolong the fight even further.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 5, 2006)

Space said:


> You didn't *flaw* anything. That argument would go back to Crimson King because he said it took Goku half a year to cross a million miles.
> 
> Jplaya you're much worse than when you started out... Instead of debating you're finding one sentence lines and correcting little mistakes that are irrevelant to the fight. You know Flash wins, just stop trying to prolong the fight even further.



no goku wins for the reasons i posted earlier. I'm tired of rehasing the same shyt over and over and over again. I stated my canon and sticking 2 it. If you disagree thats your fault not mine. Good day


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 5, 2006)

Contrary to what you might think, "canon" doesn't mean the same thing as "any random shit you pull out of your ass".


----------



## Kai (Dec 5, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> no goku wins for the reasons i posted earlier. I'm tired of rehasing the same shyt over and over and over again. I stated my canon and sticking 2 it. If you disagree thats your fault not mine.



"How to tell if someone is a DBZ fantard...."

Jplaya, you didn't provide any *new* arguments when we proved to you that Goku's IT is useless in this fight. You just go further into saying that he can blow up the planet and would blast Flash. 
You're being hypocritical when *you're* overriding even AT's canon and by spouting more bs like Goku has a different speed so Flash can't steal it which makes 0 sense at all.



			
				Jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> Good day


Translation: "Good Day so I can spend the rest of the day to think of more garbage to spout out that make no sense and with no explanation that also overrides authors, including the one that I worship."  
DEBATE. You're obviously not, and you don't even have to concede the battle. Just get out because you're a nuisance and a waste in this thread.


----------



## warrior1000 (Dec 5, 2006)

Crimson King said:


> -It took him over half a year to run 1 million miles, where Flash could do it in seconds or less.
> ?



And it took him less time when he finished his training, Correst me if i am wrong, two days.

And Flash cannot travel 1 million miles in a second, even if he is going at the speed of light, the speed of light is 186,282.397 miles per second. So even for Flash it will take atleast Four seconds.

Even so i said this, rememeber, Goku was not as strong at the begginning of the series as he was at the end, so even two days will get reduced severly.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 5, 2006)

warrior1000 said:


> And it took him less time when he finished his training, Correst me if i am wrong, two days.
> 
> And Flash cannot travel 1 million miles in a second, even if he is going at the speed of light, the speed of light is 186,282.397 miles per second. So even for Flash it will take atleast Four seconds.
> 
> Even so i said this, rememeber, Goku was not as strong at the begginning of the series as he was at the end, so even two days will get reduced severly.



Except he can go faster than light.....


----------



## Kage no Yume (Dec 5, 2006)

Couldn't the Flash simply steal all of Goku's speed (leaving Goku a motionless statue), then either supercharge Goku's atoms causing him to explode, or drop him into a blackhole/quasar/beginning of time/end of the universe?

Unless speed stealing was banned sometime after the first post?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 5, 2006)

Kage no Yume said:


> Couldn't the Flash simply steal all of Goku's speed (leaving Goku a motionless statue), then either supercharge Goku's atoms causing him to explode, or drop him into a blackhole/quasar/beginning of time/end of the universe?
> 
> Unless speed stealing was banned sometime after the first post?



That's what I've been saying, but people just aren't listening....


----------



## Kage no Yume (Dec 5, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> That's what I've been saying, but people just aren't listening....



Pray tell, just what are they using to defend Goku's non-existent resistance to Flash's speed stealing?

I mean, didn't he at one time steal the speed of an entire planet?


And then you have the whole speed dimension thing where, if I recall, Flash can move from any place to anywhere and anytime (thus ruling out "Goku blows up the planet ending it in a tie").


I simply don't see Goku winning this at all.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 5, 2006)

Kage no Yume said:


> Pray tell, just what are they using to defend Goku's non-existent resistance to Flash's speed stealing?
> 
> I mean, didn't he at one time steal the speed of an entire planet?
> 
> ...



Tell that to the DBZtards....


----------



## ram619 (Dec 5, 2006)

*about dc speedsters (Flash) limitation at fighting speed/short distance speed:

1.Flash and other speedsters in dc comics have their limit in fighting speed or short distance travel only 99% speed of light otherwise if they become faster than that at short distance the results are they will be breaking the Time Barrier, Dimensional Barrier, and finally the 
Speed Force Barrier (either of that when their at 100% light speed or greater) that will result the user to phase out of reality in other words die.(This was happened at Wally West when he beat Braniac/Luthor fused if Hawkgirl didnt pull Falsh back,Flash would certainly phase out of reality,JLU ep. "divide we fall")

2.Infinite Mass Punch - Introduced under Grant Morrison's (definitely not Wally West) run in the JLA title, Flash, travelling NEAR the speed of light (99% speed of light NOT the actual 100% speed of light) acquired the relativistic mass of such speed to impart blows which could hit with the force of "a white dwarf star" (almost certainly hyperbole, nonetheless quite hard indeed), Flash's own durability is regulated by the Speed Force in such cases.


3.About Speed Steal/Lend,before flash could rob the motion of an object he should be at close range of that object.
let me remind you that vegetto was turned into coffe candy (senseless,mindless and motionless coffe candy) still no effect at him and beats buu at the end in his coffee candy form.
ssj4 goku>ssj vegetto





*dbz speeds have no bound or limits at their speed specially 
   fighting speed (reflexes) through ki manipulation:

1.Ki, the energy or life force found within all living things. This ki can be manipulated and projected, allowing a trained individual to possess powers far above a common person. Flight, super strength/SPEED/toughness, and manipulation of numerous forms of energy are all possible to a being who is trained to control their ki.

2.Zanzoken leaves two images behind at few meters.Fact,in order to leave a blur image of the zanzoken user,he need to move faster than light.This technique was used to trick the oponent basically not for attacking.

3.Hasshuken makes the user's arms into 8 and able to block/attack at the same time.Actually its impossible to do this with just a super speed coz 8 arms are attacking/blocking at the same time like real arms,that was only possible at the speed of light in that range.

4.DBZ Characters are like a black hole, their power is so strong that their able bend time and gravity himself.Dont you know that one can travel at the speed of light without actually going the speed of light. If you can squeeze the gravity ahead of you, you can get past the object faster but still going at the same speed. That's because there's less distance between you and your desired point. What DBZ Characters does are bend gravity ahead of him so they can get close. The higher one's powerlevel, the higher one's "gravity". So they can get to their opponent without actually traveling faster than the speed of sound / light in which ladies and gentleman, without making a 
sonic boom / going faster than lightspeed without actually going at the lightspeed. 

5.100% faster than the speed of light was Kaiohken x (N) which MULTIPLY the user's SPEED and power.

6.dbz speed:
fighting speed =/= flight travelling speed
fighting speed > flight travelling speed





*FACT*

1.fighting speed:
dbz characters (goku) > dc speedster (flash)

2.travelling speed:
dbz characters (goku) < dc speedsters (flash)


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## Kage no Yume (Dec 5, 2006)

ram619 said:


> *about dc speedsters (Flash) limitation at fighting speed/short distance speed:
> 
> 1.Flash and other speedsters in dc comics have their limit in fighting speed or short distance travel only 99% speed of light otherwise if they become faster than that at short distance the results are they will be breaking the Time Barrier, Dimensional Barrier, and finally the
> Speed Force Barrier (either of that when their at 100% light speed or greater) that will result the user to phase out of reality in other words die.(This was happened at Wally West when he beat Braniac/Luthor fused if Hawkgirl didnt pull Falsh back,Flash would certainly phase out of reality,JLU ep. "divide we fall")



Flash can move over to his own speed dimension in which he isn't limited to light speed.  And using the cartoon to prove anything is essentially useless.



> 2.Infinite Mass Punch - Introduced under Grant Morrison's (definitely not Wally West) run in the JLA title, Flash, travelling NEAR the speed of light (99% speed of light NOT the actual 100% speed of light) acquired the relativistic mass of such speed to impart blows which could hit with the force of "a white dwarf star" (almost certainly hyperbole, nonetheless quite hard indeed), Flash's own durability is regulated by the Speed Force in such cases.



Considering that his strongest blow destroyed the armor of a multiversal threat, I doubt it's hyperbole.




> 3.About Speed Steal/Lend,before flash could rob the motion of an object he should be at close range of that object.
> let me remind you that vegetto was turned into coffe candy (senseless,mindless and motionless coffe candy) still no effect at him and beats buu at the end in his coffee candy form.
> ssj4 goku>ssj vegetto



I'm pretty sure that Flash has stolen the speed of an entire planet before, while staying in one place.  And there's a big difference in Flash's speed stealing and Buu's magic.  Flash is essentially the avatar of the idea of speed, and his stealing of speed is a constant thing.  Buu's magic was just that: magic that mysteriously transforms people into candy.

I'm pretty sure it's much easier to break out of a magic based transformation than going against what is essentially a universal law.  



> *dbz speeds have no bound or limits at their speed specially
> fighting speed (reflexes) through ki manipulation:
> 
> 1.Ki, the energy or life force found within all living things. This ki can be manipulated and projected, allowing a trained individual to possess powers far above a common person. Flight, super strength/SPEED/toughness, and manipulation of numerous forms of energy are all possible to a being who is trained to control their ki.



Okay.



> 2.Zanzoken leaves two images behind at few meters.Fact,in order to leave a blur image of the zanzoken user,he need to move faster than light.This technique was used to trick the oponent basically not for attacking.



Proof?

I'm quite sure Goku mastered this move long before he gained a major speed boost, which in turn was long before he could even begin to imagine dodging lightning.  Thus, I highly doubt this to be anything more than BS.



> 3.Hasshuken makes the user's arms into 8 and able to block/attack at the same time.Actually its impossible to do this with just a super speed coz 8 arms are attacking/blocking at the same time like real arms,that was only possible at the speed of light in that range.



Interesting, but still lacking in proof...



> 4.DBZ Characters are like a black hole, their power is so strong that their able bend time and gravity himself.Dont you know that one can travel at the speed of light without actually going the speed of light. If you can squeeze the gravity ahead of you, you can get past the object faster but still going at the same speed. That's because there's less distance between you and your desired point. What DBZ Characters does are bend gravity ahead of him so they can get close. The higher one's powerlevel, the higher one's "gravity". So they can get to their opponent without actually traveling faster than the speed of sound / light in which ladies and gentleman, without making a
> sonic boom / going faster than lightspeed without actually going at the lightspeed.



Did you verify this with the author?  If not, this is nothing more than a theory, which IIRC doesn't happen to be very convincing evidence in the Battledome.



> 5.100% faster than the speed of light was Kaiohken x (N) which MULTIPLY the user's SPEED and power.



Still no proof of them moving at the speed of light to begin with...



> 6.dbz speed:
> fighting speed =/= flight travelling speed
> fighting speed > flight travelling speed



Finally something I can agree with...sorta.



> *FACT*
> 
> 1.fighting speed:
> dbz characters (goku) > dc speedster (flash)
> ...



Amazing how you can make theory and made up info into "*FACT*".


Anyways, I see now what you were talking about Endless Mike.  I think I'll just throw in the towel before getting too involved in this thread .


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## Gohan (Dec 5, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Except the key part of your definition relies on the process that generates the lightning and its location. It has nothing to do with the type of energy, and thus would not affect the speed.



It does, because lightning from cloud-ground for example requires a stronger electric field, therefore lightning such as positive lightning have as much as 300,000 amperes and one billion volts and therefore the transfer of electrical energy(charge) through the air is alot faster. 



> Just because Enel's lightning isn't generated naturally in clouds, you suddenly think it's millions of times slower?



I never said it was millions of times slower, i said that not all electrical energy transfer are the same. Enel's max is 200 million volts so obviously its faster, but im saying that saying it is 1/3 sol depends since the speed of lightning varies, and usually the higher end like 500 millions volts + = 1/3 SOL + and sometihng like 1 billion volts = 1/2 SOL.



> Not only that, but to show that the kind of "logic" they use would come up with ridiculous conclusions when applied to other universes.



Except you just added in that argument now. But the point was, you can't show 2 arguments in the one because the latter impedes your first argument. You see you were trying to show that you shouldn't take the statements literally because it could become ridiculous when you look at people like Luffy moving SOL, except it didn't become ridiculous because of taking the statements literally but it became ridiculous because you made groundless jumps in speed, meaning your example to prove a point does not work.



> So according to you, lightning travels relativistic speed because it is in clouds? If it happened anywhere other than a cloud, it wouldn't be as fast?



No, im saying that because it is from say cloud-ground it has a very high voltage and therefore a fast electrical energy transfer. Enel also has 200 million volts but to say that it is as fast as _*any*_ lightning is the same is wrong, because the speed of lightning varies depending on the lightning strike.



> You do realize that scientists have created lightning artificially in laboratories at speeds even greater than lightning in nature, right? No clouds there.



NO i didn't realise that, but that is irrelevant to what i am saying.



> Which are two things that DBZtards do.



Well you havn't really shown why taken the statements literrally are wrong because in your example the reason luffy's speed was ridiculous was NOT because we took Enel's statement but because you made ridiculous jumps in speed as well as you missed out other factors.




> And both of those are fallacious, since there is no way to quantify exactly how much faster he's gotten.



I know they are fallacious, as the examples were to demonstrate how much you could of been off, and thus this 'off' was what was making the speeds of luffy ridiculous, not the factor of taking statements literally, which was what you were using to try to show how much it would make speeds of people such as luffy seem ridiculous.



> Not quite. Let's say you can move 100 km in one millisecond, and your opponent can move 110 km in one millisecond. If he is chasing after you, he'll catch up to you, but you still have the majority of a millisecond to prepare for him, which should be enough if you can react that fast.



not really. That actually depends on how much head start you giving me, which would mean i already had a head start in distance and that wouldn't be an even speed comparison. 

But you see, if we were at the exact same place and were fighting, i would only need to fly 1/20th of a millisecond before i am out of your sight and behind you, that also includes if you use that 1/20th of a millisecond yourself to gain some distance, because i would be 5km ahead, and 1km is already more than enough to be out of your sight, and the other 4km to curve around and be behind you.



> Stop trying to obfuscate the issue. The only difference between Enel's lightning and natural lightning is that the latter comes from a cloud, while the former comes from Enel's body. This doesn't change the properties of it at all.



Except to simply say the speed of enel's electricity is the same as any lightning in the book that you have seen traveld at blah blah speed is wrong.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 5, 2006)

ram619 said:


> *about dc speedsters (Flash) limitation at fighting speed/short distance speed:
> 
> 1.Flash and other speedsters in dc comics have their limit in fighting speed or short distance travel only 99% speed of light otherwise if they become faster than that at short distance the results are they will be breaking the Time Barrier, Dimensional Barrier, and finally the
> Speed Force Barrier (either of that when their at 100% light speed or greater) that will result the user to phase out of reality in other words die.(This was happened at Wally West when he beat Braniac/Luthor fused if Hawkgirl didnt pull Falsh back,Flash would certainly phase out of reality,JLU ep. "divide we fall")
> ...





great post 

*closes thread*


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 5, 2006)

Ah, the Ultimate Tard posts.

Anyways, that post was wrong on so many levels. Using Cartoon Flash, saying that wasn't Wally West for the IMP (Who else was the Flash up until now?), saying that Wally can't go beyond Lightspeed without going into the Speedforce (Wally can due to his special connection with the Speedforce), plus the attrocious overstatements of things like DBZ's speed.

You fail in every way.


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## jplaya2023 (Dec 5, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> Ah, the Ultimate Tard posts.
> 
> Anyways, that post was wrong on so many levels. Using Cartoon Flash, saying that wasn't Wally West for the IMP (Who else was the Flash up until now?), saying that Wally can't go beyond Lightspeed without going into the Speedforce (Wally can due to his special connection with the Speedforce), plus the attrocious overstatements of things like DBZ's speed.
> 
> You fail in every way.




instead of being a homotional stan why dont you debate to what he's said


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 5, 2006)

Coming from a person who can't debate anything. 

I pointed out that they used a great deal of flawed information for the Flash: He used JLU Flash, he didn't know that it was Wally that used the Infinite Mass punch, he just reposted the stuff on relativistic mass from wiki without actually disproving it or commenting on it, mistook what stealing speed is (It's not like a transformation, it's just STOPS you), didn't know that Wally can excede Lightspeed without getting absorbed into the Speedforce due to his special connection...

There's not really much to debate. Plus his entire post on DB was based on heresay and conjecture.


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## jplaya2023 (Dec 5, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> There's not really much to debate. Plus his entire post on DB was based on heresay and conjecture.



care to further elaborate this heresay and conjecture you speak of on specific points?


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## Kai (Dec 5, 2006)

Kage no Yume said:


> Pray tell, just what are they using to defend Goku's non-existent resistance to Flash's speed stealing?
> 
> I mean, didn't he at one time steal the speed of an entire planet?
> 
> ...



God I've said this in my long ass posts between 23-29 just read the pages I've explained everything there to Jaydaime and Jplaya yet they they're only arguments are that Goku can use IT(which he can't) and blowing up the planet.

Plus, I see you just entered this thread so you're also debating against them about Goku's feats which will never end, trust me. You have to debate against the battle, the facts, and corner them until they have nothing to say.


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## Jay (Dec 5, 2006)

> Endless Mike;6219442]You're calling the fucking Flash slow? Compared to a guy *who isn't even confirmed to go sound speed* over slow distances? Now this is rich.


No what's rich is all you do is try your very best to put dbz down with your so call fact's, well according to you they are, and then when we put are fact's across you call us dbz fan tard's because not everybody agree's with your opinion's of how shit you seem to think dbz is, so what doe's that make you? it's clearly obvious your a dbz hater and comic boy buff, but in your own word's if we are dbz tard's then you must be a comic book tard.
Anyway it's clear you haven't read my first post on this thread because you've been waffling on so much about your opinion how it's absolutely certain that goku can't win, and how he is no faster then the speed of sound, so Ill post it again just to prove dbz character's can go faster then the speed of sound and why I think they can also go as fast if not faster then light, here it is.

Goku was travelling at Mach 17 on the snakeway.

(from other forums) 
"""" 
1,000,000 kilometer = 621,371 miles. 20 kilometer/hour = 12.427 423 845 mile/hour. Going at 12.5 miles an hour would not equal 2 days. It would be 2071 days. For it take 2 days he would have had to be going 13,000 mile/hour (mph) = 20,921.472 kilometer/hour. 

13,000 mile/hour (mph) = Mach 17”""" 


Now lets see, Goku was around powerlevel 8000 when he was going at mach 17. Now everybody here knows with training and every power upgrade speed always increases as well. 

Now if Goku was able to go mach17 on PL of 8000, Super Buu Gohan is said to have a powerlevel of 6,700,000,000. 

Now 6,700,000,000/8000=837500 
That means Super Buu Gohan was 837500 times more powerful than Base Goku that went on the snakeway. 

Mach17 = 12 940.5199 mph 
mach17*837500 = 10837685416.25mph 

Speed of Light = 670616629 mph.
But not only that but majin buu was beaten the crap out of by a regular vegetto who is even faster.



> Crimson King;6220688]Goku had trouble lifting 40 tons


Right okay, but as usual dbz hater's forget the fact that goku was punching and kicking witht weight's strapped to his limb's which is a hell of alot different then just throwing them above your head.
Oh and I allmost forgot arn't the kai planet's at least 10 time's normal gravity which would make them 400 ton's not 40.


> -It took him over half a year to run 1 million miles, where Flash could do it in seconds or less.


Lol and that was when he had a pl of about 450 yes? and I find it funny the way your trying your very best to put dbz down by typing only about him getting to king kai's planet but not how fast he got back.
Also read my post above or at least compare flash with the goku of now, not at the very start of dbz  .



> -He cant' even fly supersonic since he makes no sinicbooms when he flys
> 
> Want more?


What more shite? no thank's, Anyway if you’re wondering howcome if they all can travel soundspeed or lightspeed but they didn’t, is because they had no protection from Sonic Boom. Flash has super speed so he can go lightspeed without hurting his environment but sadly, this is not in DBZ, and fights that take place at speeds faster than light in DBZ which are generally shown as shockwaves crumble mountains and land beneath them. 
That’s because of Sonic booms generated by little flight at sound or light speed while fighting.

So rest assured, DBZ can trip lightspeed by mid-DBZ i think.
And I also think goku's combat speed which is in light speed should be able to keep up with flash's.
So tell me how is flash going to lightspeed punch somebody who is equally as fast or maybe the slightest bit slower then him?


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## Vynjira (Dec 5, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> 7 seconds to travel to and back so he traveled roughly 1,500 miles in 3 seconds or less assuming he was going faster on his charge. So he was going roughly 1/370 the speed of light while injured. So Injured it would take Flash roughly 50 seconds to circle the earth once and 6mins and 38secs for 8 times. Gotenks spent 7 or 10 mins I can't remember and I can't find the disc with all my scans so until someone posts a scan to verify or un-verify we'll go with 7mins.
> 
> So Injured Flash during one of his weaker showings is faster than Gotenks.



Gotenks took 7 minutes to travel around the earth 8 times. Lightspeed would circle the earth 7.5 times in 1 second. Thats around the equator. Flash injured was faster and he wasn't pushing for his fastest. So Injured Flash(building momentum) faster than Gotenks(testing his limits).

Make up all the numbers you like, Gotenks is slower than Flash on one of his weakest showings.


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## Jay (Dec 5, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Gotenks took 7 minutes to travel around the earth 8 times. Lightspeed would circle the earth 7.5 times in 1 second. Thats around the equator. Flash injured was faster and he wasn't pushing for his fastest. So Injured Flash(building momentum) faster than Gotenks(testing his limits).
> 
> Make up all the numbers you like, Gotenks is slower than Flash on one of his weakest showings.



I wont use as many number's this time for you then.
In the manga itself, Gotenks states that he went a few dozen times around earth and took a nap. Gotenks limit was 30 mins. A Nap, if you ask any person out there is at least half an hour to 2 hours. That means. And by a few, if Gotenks at least means 3-5, that means he went around the world 36-50 times in a matter of mere seconds. 
A light takes 7 rounds of earth in one second.


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## Kai (Dec 5, 2006)

Unfortunately, Goku can't use IT in this battle and what Goku can lift doesn't determine at all how he would be able to defeat the Flash.

1. Jplaya, lol you *still* haven't provided any argument on how Goku would get out of his speedd stolen since Flash is faster than the speed of thought. 

You're going on and on about Goku's feats which is a surprising pattern when you or Jaydaime are at the end of their rope. You know Goku has lost so if you can't debate against it at least get out of the thread if you won't admit defeat.

2. You *still* haven't provided argument on why you're inputting ki into Flash when Gardner Fox put no such thing in him whatsoever. AT revolves the principle of ki in the DBU, not to every single show/comic ever made. You're basically saying that DC, Naruto, Superman, and Garfield have ki which is completely absurd.

3. You *still* haven't provided argument on what Goku would do(I wouldn't blame you) if Flash went back in time. Goku would do the exact same loser strategy while the Flash can just vibrate through his predictable feeble skull.

4. You *still* go on and on how Goku would just blow up the planet. You yourself knows he's too slow but you're just trying to prolong the fight even further. It takes him 10 seconds to charge such a planet buster, and Flash would finish reading a book in 9.5 seconds than use the last .5 seconds to steal Goku's speed and vibrate through him.

5. You *still* haven't provided any evidence that Goku takes 1 second to go SSJ3. You gave us a manga scan, which we said you can't measure time in manga(which you STILL didn't reply to). You then posted the anime episode against Super Buu and it CLEARLY took Goku 2 seconds to go SSJ3. You haven't replied to this either. You're ultimate moves for Goku have been refuted.

6. Although some mild concentration, Goku needs it to go SSJ and further. Flash is faster than speed of thought(as it's been stated to you 10X32854982342840234982 times. 

7. You *still* haven't replied back to how Goku is going to blast Flash off the planet. Flash is faster than Goku even extending his arm to fire a ki blast, and even faster than the ki blasts themselves. It's debatable that Flash can just vibrate straight through the ki blasts and then go straight for Goku.

8. You *still* haven't replied to how Goku would see Flash. Flash can vibrate his molecules so fast that he would appear invisible. Since Ki sense is useless and IT is useless, Goku can only rely on human senses. Flash would infinite mass punch his damn body. His body is not as durable as a planet, and it can't withstand 350,000 degrees Farenheit.

9. You *still* haven't given evidence to why Flash has ki, all you said was that he has "life force." You don't override the Gardner Fox's canon, stick the Ki principle in the DBU and let it stay there.

Instead, you use a pattern of:
1. Goku's feats in the DBU repeatedly
2. Saying things that make no sense with no explanation as a constant way to defend yourself
3. Finding one sentence lines and correcting them that are 100& irrelevant to this fight.

Yeah that basically summons it up for Jplaya  and the rest like Phenomenol and Jaydaime have very similar characteristics....


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## Vynjira (Dec 5, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> In the manga itself, Gotenks states that he went a few dozen times around earth and took a nap.


 In the manga it states he circled the Earth 8 times in 7 mins. Gotenks limit was 30 mins. 





Jaydaime said:


> A Nap, if you ask any person out there is at least half an hour to 2 hours.


Prove Gotenks took a half hour nap. Your numbers are bullshit.





Jaydaime said:


> And by a few, if Gotenks at least means 3-5, that means he went around the world 36-50 times in a matter of mere seconds.


Despite the fact he went around the earth 8 times?

Your reasoning for time to take a nap is flawed. Your Manga doesn't support your 36-50 times. He went around the earth 8 times in 7 mins. Prove otherwise with numbers in the manga or show, and I can conceed that arguement to you. Otherwise stop making up numbers off the top of your head that hold no weight in the arguement.


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## jplaya2023 (Dec 5, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> In the manga it states he circled the Earth 8 times in 7 mins.




do post scans of the manga your reading it took 7 minutes and he circled 8 times??


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## Vynjira (Dec 5, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> do post scans of the manga your reading it took 7 minutes and he circled 8 times??



better you post where it says he didn't.


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## jplaya2023 (Dec 5, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> better you post where it says he didn't.



nice


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## Jay (Dec 5, 2006)

> Space;6228678]You're going on and on about Goku's feats which is a surprising pattern when you or *Jaydaime* are at the end of their rope.


Wow.. I take it by that comment your trying to get my attention to start another endless argument again?
How can you say Im at the end of my rope when I answer all your question's whenever I get the chance, and forgive me that Im not on here all day like you constantly posting essay's out all the time, I just couldn't be assed.
Anyway these question's you keep constantly asking Ive allready answered them, why dont you answer any of mine for a change?, rather then making up poor excusse's about how your going to get a mod on me for trolling just because you dont have an answer to my question's or just answering some of them.
Read my calculation's above (how geeky) which are correct yes? and then tell me how flash can beat goku when goku's combat speed is equally as fast, plus goku is as hard as a planet, and you haven't proved shit that he isn't so stop saying that, and I answered your petty question about the chi chi thing on why you say he isn't but I noticed you deleted half my answer on the reply and just answered abit of it  .
I have proved goku can take attack's that some planet's cant take so if the flash can't destroy a planet how is he going to beat an alien that is just as fast at fighting and can take all of flash's attack's?
And you keep forever asking jplaya why doe's flash have ki? and he must of answered you 10 time's now, ki = life energy.
And if your going to be biased and say that it doesn't just because there from different universes then you shouldn't be stating your so called fact's and proof on here whatsoever.


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## Jay (Dec 5, 2006)

BiggyPinkston21 said:


> so according to my calculations Jaydaime and Jplaya are the most narrow minded people. they dont listen to anyone. for all i know there lil whiney ass butt buddies. flash would cleary rape goku in da anus. end of story. so...if u guys dont stop bitching im gonna have to find u and back hand u in da face.


Lol funny a 25 year old bitch with no ball's trying to act hard on the naruto forum's  .
Why dont you explain why flash would beat goku? or go home and shag your blow up doll ya ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) .


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## Orion (Dec 5, 2006)

weve explained why 1000 million fucking times your just a moron who thinks goku can instantly use it with no ki signature and blow up the planet which takes him awhile to charge a planet destroying blast.


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## ram619 (Dec 5, 2006)

kage no yume if you really know about the dc speedsters you should know that it did happen in comics that any speedsters could break the time barrier,dimension barrier and speed force barrier if they come equal or greater than light at short distance otherwise dc comics wont make any rules for speedsters about speedforce......

fact:if dc speedsters has no limit then why do they time travel?
dc speedster has their limit coz they were bound by speed force.

all of this has connection with light/ vision so its impossible that this was just an assumption:   "action speaks louder than words"

1.about zanzoken i did not really said that they travel and fight faster than light,what i said was they can become faster than light through the use of zanzoken.why?coz no speed of sound/light can leave a blur of image within short distance.that's fact and not assumption.leaving a blur of image is enough proof that is faster than light,coz how can you leave your image which we see coz there is light if you not moving faster than light."action speaks louder than words"

2.about hasshuken i did not really said that the user can travel or move at the speed of light but no speed of sound or near the speed of light can make your 8 arms real that can attack/block at the same time and that's fact.imagine all 8 arms are real because of its speed that is enough proof again "action speaks louder than words".

3.remember ssj gotenks who went around the world few dozen times that leaves trail of light around the world while still circling around the planet and he did take a nap after that.fact:leaving a circled trail of light around the planet while still circling around the planet was enough proof that was faster than light.no speed of sound/light can do that,"action speaks louder than words"

4.remember vegeta at planet namek who read ginew forces ki at their space pod which travels galaxy-to-galaxy (speed of light) while on vegeta's fight with 4th form freeza,vegeta cannot felt freeza's ki that moves so fast.fact,only with the same speed or greater can react at that speed.

5.is it obvious that when goku uses his kaiohken it multiply his speed,some of you makes yourself blind to the truth.why?coz at the end of dbz goku was fighting (not travel) quicker than lightning and able to read ki while fighting just as mr. popo mention that he must learn.

lightning was 93000 miles per sec
light was 186000 miles per sec = kaiohken x 2


6.when vegeta/nappa approaching on earth no z- warriors read their ki as they come close at the planet unlike vegeta at planet namek who read ginew forces ki despite that their in space pod (galaxy o galaxy=speed of light),factnly with the same speed can react at that speed.


answers:

about magic it breaks the law of science and no law of science can counter it only greater power,unlike the law of science you just need to follow its law and reverse the effects.

which is more dangerous turn into coffe candy or steal your speed?

question:how can dc speedsters steal speed if he hasnt moving.speed steal/lend was not telekinetic that the user dont need to move,the user must partcipate.

ex.*flash did steal the speed of bullet by going close at it.
*flash did lend some of his speed at the bus allowing him to throw it at sonar.

about theory your talking about kage no yume,we all see  dbz characters raising their ki and all the rocks/stones are levitating then earth is shaking.that is enough proof that they alter the gravity or create their own gravity.fact light can escape a blackhole,well dbz characters shown they can alter gravity their just like a blackhole,the higher the ki the greater it is.

about infinite mass punch it is just near the speed fo light,yes its true that it can demolish anyone but dbz characters are faster.

my proof here is "action speaks louder than words",you dont need to wait for someone to say it,just to see the fact was enough proof.

dont count dbz scenes when there were no speed feats


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 5, 2006)

ram619 said:


> kage no yume if you really know about the dc speedsters you should know that it did happen in comics that any speedsters could break the time barrier,dimension barrier and speed force barrier if they come equal or greater than light at short distance otherwise dc comics wont make any rules for speedsters about speedforce......
> 
> fact:if dc speedsters has no limit then why do they time travel?
> dc speedster has their limit coz they were bound by speed force.
> ...



Ok you pretend to actually know about DC speedsters but you clearly dont. As someone who has read hundreds of Flash/Flash related comics, I will tell you that he can go faster then light.

Confirmed times the Flash has gone Faster then Light (just off the top of my head): Issue 99, 147, 148, 199, 200, and 209

Your right, actions speak louder then words. Please explain these *actions* if the Flash has a limit of the speed of light.


----------



## ram619 (Dec 5, 2006)

i know flash can go faster than light but not in a fight coz time travel is dependent on distance and fighting is at short distance.

in fighting flash was at 99% speed of light

in travel flash can become infinite faster than light.

speed of light,faster than light on short ditance =breaking time barrier,dimension barrier/speedforce barrier.

time travel,dimension travel and become one with the force was a limit in speed at short distance.

plz read what i wrote here coz this is not a race,this is a fight.

race:
goku<flash

fight:
goku>flash


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 5, 2006)

ram619 said:


> kage no yume if you really know about the dc speedsters you should know that it did happen in comics that any speedsters could break the time barrier,dimension barrier and speed force barrier if they come equal or greater than light at short distance otherwise dc comics wont make any rules for speedsters about speedforce......



Not true at all. Both Bart and Wally have exceded light multiple times without joining the Speedforce. At any rate, Wally won't become 'one' with the Speedforce until he actually wants to, since he has a 'lightning rod' (Linda).

Thusly, you're wrong. He's exceded lightspeed multiple times. Just look at his battle with Zoom, where they circle the Earth 99 times in 1 second, but _*never*_ merged with the Speedforce. He's emptied a city of 1,000,000 and desposited them miles away to save them from a nuclear blast without reaching into the speedforce. That's not possible without goign the speed of light or beyond. He's gone past the speed of light testing the speed of Blue Energy Superman without entering the Speedforce.

You do not know anything about the Flash outside of what you must have looked up on Wikipedia.



> fact:if dc speedsters has no limit then why do they time travel?
> dc speedster has their limit coz they were bound by speed force.



That... that doesn't even make sense. That's like saying "I like pasta because my house is made of bricks". Speedsters go back in time to, well, _stop past events_. It serves a completely different need than just going light speed.



> all of this has connection with light/ vision so its impossible that this was just an assumption:   "action speaks louder than words"



Huh? You're not even making sense anymore.



> 1.about zanzoken i did not really said that they are faster than light,what i said was they can become faster than light through the use of zanzoken.why?







> coz no speed of sound/light can leave a blur of image within short distance.that's fact and not assumption.leaving a blur of image is enough proof that is faster than light,coz how can you leave your image which we see coz there is light if you not moving faster than light."action speaks louder than words"



You're a moron. That's not true at all. They simply disappear. By the by, Flash does this _all the time_. He's been able to act as both the Flash and Wally West all at the same time by switching in and out of his costume at rapid speeds.

All this needs to go faster than the eye can actually register it. Even then, people can go slower than that and leave blurs.

Plus, time moves while they fight. Visible time changes, with bystanders at least seeing a passage of minutes. Saying it is anywhere near lightspeed is completely ignoring the fact that most battles are fairly decisively won within a few 'relative minutes' (If we are going by DBZ fans arguing that time passes slower when fighting), which would be, oh, over before we even knew it began.

Physics speaks louder than DBZ Fanboys.



> 2.about hasshuken no speed of sound or near the speed of light can make your 8 arms real that can attack/block at the same time and that's fact.imagine all 8 arms are real because of its speed that is enough proof again "action speaks louder than words".



That's not true. That's purely opinion. If he was moving at the speed of light, he wouldn't need to block. He could strike someone in the millions, perhaps even BILLIONS of times.



> 3.remember ssj gotenks who went around the world few dozen times that leaves trail of light around the world while still circling around the planet and he did take a nap after that.fact:leaving a circled trail of light around the planet while still circling around the planet was enough proof that was faster than light.no speed of sound/light can do that,"action speaks louder than words"



Got a time on that? NO? Didn't think so. You can't judge the time from the manga, thusly it's a useless feat because it's unquantifiable. We don't know how many times he circled, how long he napped, etc...

Thusly, it's unusable UNLESS THEY SAID IT. This is a distinct case of "WORDS SPEAK LOUDER THAN INTERPRETATIONS"



> 4.remember vegeta at planet namek who read ginew forces ki at their space pod which travels galaxy-to-galaxy (speed of light) while on vegeta's fight with 4th form freeza,vegeta cannot felt freeza's ki that moves so fast.fact,only with the same speed or greater can react at that speed.



That's not true, though. It's easier to follow a ki following a straight, predictable line, especially when they aren't trying to conceal their ki. Trying to compare that with someone who is switching direction in the middle of a heated battle, and you're arguing two completely different things.

Plus, you have no proof that they are flying speed of light all the time. If they were, they'd throw off the orbits of planets and such without something like the Speedforce or Warp Speed to allow for it. LOGICALLY (I know this is a stretch for you to understand), that means that they may travel FTL before they get in system, but afterwards they settle off at subluminal speeds.



> 5.is it obvious that when goku uses his kaiohken it multiply his speed,some of you makes yourself blind to the truth.



There's no proof that it's exponential, it could be simply linear. Plus, we don't even KNOW his speed, thusly this is moot.



> 6.when vegeta/nappa approaching on earth no z- warriors read their ki as they coming close at the planet unlike vegeta at planet namek who read ginew forces ki despite that their in space pod (galaxy o galaxy=speed of light)



Spacecraft, yes. Then again, we see them actually speed past planets. It stands to reason that they make a lightspeed jump, then once in system (where becoming 'infinite mass' would throw off crucial things like orbits) it just goes down to a sublight speed.



> answers:
> 
> about magic no law of science can break that only greater power,unlike the law of science you just need to follow its law and reverse the effects.



... Oooookay. You want to rethink that so it comes out as an actual _thought_ or...?



> which is more dangerous turn into coffe candy or steal your speed?



Stealing speed. It's pretty simple, actually: Having enough ki allows you to break out of the candy transformation. It doesn't stop you from acting. Losing all your kinetic energy means that you are in complete stasis. You can't move, can't do anything. It's not a matter of using ki, because you aren't thinking because everythign in you body has stopped.



> [question:how can dc speedsters steal speed if he hasnt moving.
> ex. flash did steal the speed of bullet by going close at it.



Huh? You make no sense.



> about theory your talking about kage no yume,we all see  dbz characters raising their ki and all the rocks/stones are levitating then earth is shaking.that is enough proof that they alter the gravity or create their own gravity.fact light can escape a blackhole,well dbz characters shown they can alter gravity their just like a blackhole,the higher the ki the greater it is.



Not true. If they had permanently altered their gravity to increase their speed, then they'd create massive ditches when they moved due to the increased gravity. Thusly, you're wrong.



> about infinite mass punch it is just near the speed fo light,yes its true that it can demolish anyone but dbz characters are faster.



Except you have absolutely no proof at all.



> my proof here is "action speaks louder than words",you dont need to wait for someone to say it,just to see the fact was enough proof.



Then again, your actions have yet to prove that they've broken the sound barrier, and you only say that "Well, obviously they must be at light speed!" This negates the fact that time passes during fights regularly: If they were fighting at light speed, or even near it, their fights would not last even a 1/100th of a second.

Actions speak louder than words. Their fights are too long for them to be moving at light speed. Leaving an after-image is not a requiste for light speed, it's just you moving faster than someone's eye can process.

Once again, Physics speaks louder than DBZ fanboys.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 5, 2006)

ram619 said:


> i know flash can go faster than light but not in a fight coz time travel is dependent on distance and fighting is at short distance.



That's... that's not even true. What the heck are you talking about?



> in fighting flash was at 99% speed of light



So you're completely ignoring when he and Zoom fought around the Earth at multiples of the speed of light.



> in travel flash can become infinite faster than light.



Read above. He fought Zoom at far above the speed of light.



> speed of light,faster than light on short ditance =breaking time barrier,dimension barrier/speedforce barrier.



... No. NO. It doesn't matter distance at all. When Wally talks about going from 0 to the Speed of Light against Zoom, he has no worries about time travel or the speedforce. Time Travel is something beyond speed of light, as we've seen other people (Like Superman and Wonder Woman) travel at the SPeed of Light. It's more to due with the vibrational qualities of the Flash than anything else.



> time travel,dimension travel and become one with the force was a limit in speed at short distance.



No. This is not true, and this is how we know that you don't know what you are talking about.



> plz read what i wrote here coz this is not a race,this is a fight.



We know. You don't know anything about the Flash or the Speedforce, though.



> race:
> goku<flash



Okay...



> fight:
> goku>flash



Seriously, is distance the only thing that stops Flash from winning? If he's faster, then he could just run around the world and nail Goku from behind if distance is the problem. Considering you have _absolutely no proof_ that they are anywhere even CLOSE to _c_ (An afterimage is NOT proof of light speed), Goku couldn't do a thing.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 5, 2006)

Superman can perform Zanzoken as he has left afterimages(In exactly the same way Goku has in the show.)

I'll take a moment to add to "Justice and Rule's" post the Cell Games being televised kinda proves in several ways they weren't going FTL Speeds.

Back to the point, Flash and Goku are Both in their prime. Til now its been comparing and exaggerating some of the greater feats in Dragonball against some of Flash's weaker showings. Flash in his prime was able to achieve virtually any speed he could think of. Flash wins, especially once Goku charges an attack or tries to transform.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 5, 2006)

Simpliest question to ask ram is this:

If you are going at FTL speeds, how can discernible time pass during fights?


----------



## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

ram619 said:


> i know flash can go faster than light but not in a fight coz time travel is dependent on distance and fighting is at short distance.
> 
> in fighting flash was at 99% speed of light
> 
> ...



You should know that at the very very start of the battle, those few nanoseconds are just pure linear speed. Flash would go up to goku and steal his speed instantly before Goku blinks.


----------



## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Wow.. I take it by that comment your trying to get my attention to start another endless argument again?


Alright, I have to debate with you AGAIN. and I know for sure 100% you're going to include something that you've repeated lots of times before although we've proved you absolutely wrong. Let's roll.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> How can you say Im at the end of my rope when I answer all your question's whenever I get the chance, and forgive me that Im not on here all day like you constantly posting essay's out all the time, I just couldn't be assed.


Neither am I. When you answer my questions, all you repeat is that Flash has ki and Goku can blow up the planet. You can't even prove how he can be fast enough yet you totally ignore our evidence that he isn't. Then you start blabbing on about Goku's feats and how he can sense people dimensions, lightyears away! ZOMG! Neverending cycle that you just won't admit  



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Anyway these question's you keep constantly asking Ive allready answered them, why dont you answer any of mine for a change?


I would be glad to, and take them into consideration. We're taking this one step at a time so even you can understand.

,





			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> rather then making up poor excusse's about how your going to get a mod on me for trolling just because you dont have an answer to my question's or just answering some of them.


I've answered the few questions you've ever asked me. I've asked you very straightforward questions on how Goku would destroy the planet if he's too slow and you just ignore it probably because you don't know how to answer it. I'll answer all your questions, and if there's conflict, we'll debate without neglecting it.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Read my calculation's above (how geeky) which are correct yes? and then tell me how flash can beat goku when goku's combat speed is equally as fast,


Combat speed is equally fast? Goku won't even be able to *go into combat* for this fight. You're thinking too ahead. Flash would steal his speed once the battle begins, which for the first nanoseconds are pure linear speed. It would be a straightforward easy speedsteal speedblitz win for Flash. You have on idea how fast this guy is.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> plus goku is as hard as a planet,


  You have ZERO proof for this statement. It's the most laughable comment I've ever seen made by a DBZ fan. 
Goku gets hurt by regular ki blasts, how is he as hard as a planet? He got burnt by a fire- how's that as hard as a planet?
 He got crushed on King Kai's planet which was only 10X Earth's gravity- how's that hard as a planet? 
Goku gets hurt by regular punches- how's that hard as a planet?
Goku got his stomach pierced by Piccolo's Special Beam cannon-how's that hard as a planet?(and no Piccolo's SBC was not planet destroying at that point of DBZ  )
 You're making unsupported claims(except supported by you) *and* you're trying to override AT canon because he never said anything of the sort. Just like you guys.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> a*nd you haven't proved shit that he isn't* so stop saying that, and I answered your petty question about the chi chi thing on why you say he isn't but I noticed you deleted half my answer on the reply and just answered abit of it  .


Read above. I think even Phenomenol is smart enough that Goku isn't as durable as a planet, you must be joking. 

If you even read what I said before that, I told you I wasn't going to argue little petty things like that since you obvioiusly are too childish and attached to Goku. But now I changed my mind- I need to know what you're thinking and see why you're Fanboyism > all evidence?



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> I have proved goku can take attack's that some planet's cant take


Wth? Where? In fact, you don't have to post any scans or vids. Just tell me one time when goku took a blast *right to his body* that was planet destroying and survived(seeing how you say Goku's as hard as a planet).



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> so if the flash can't destroy a planet how is he going to beat an alien that is just as fast at fighting and can take all of flash's attack's?


Oh..my..God GAYDAIME I already explained this!!! And no, Goku CANNOT take all of Flash's attacks. You don't know enough about the Flash. Seriously. Go read a comic when he vs Anti-monitor, races Zoom, or vs any villain and you would see how fast this guy is and the unreal techniques he possesses.
I told you that Flash can Infinite Mass punch which is equivalent to a White Dwarf Star with each punch at a heat of 350,000 degrees Farenheit(like about 9,000X more than Goku can handle[calculating heat from a normal fire]
Flash's speed > Goku's punches and kicks
Flash's speedforce shield> Goku's punches and kicks[w/e i won't debate against you on that, I don't know]
Flash's speed> Goku's time to extend his arm and fire ki blasts
Flash's control over goku's molecule vibration> Goku's body

Goku was on the verge of death from a simple heart virus. Flash controlling every single molecule in his body would be overkill. You can't say that he's more durable than a planet now. 



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> And you keep forever asking jplaya why doe's flash have ki? and he must of answered you 10 time's now, ki = life energy.


Yet I answered him BACK yet again 10 times that he doesn't override Gardner Fox's canon because he does not revolve around such a principle. And what do you know, Jplaya and you avoid it completely  and repeat the same thing over again. Here, I just proved it again.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> And if your going to be biased and say that it doesn't just because there from different universes then you shouldn't be stating your so called fact's and proof on here whatsoever.


Facts = not biased
I told you that I have nothing against Dragonball. What is your reasoning for me being biased? Just because I think Flash will win? You're being a hypocrite right now. Even in the face of defeat and when the facts are right in front of your noses, you still stick to Goku for no reason whatsoever with the exception of fanboyism.

Are you saying Garfield and Odie have ki too? ZOMG SO THEY CAN FLY AND BE TRAINED HOW TO DO SPIRIT BOMB?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Space said:


> Unfortunately, Goku can't use IT in this battle and what Goku can lift doesn't determine at all how he would be able to defeat the Flash.....



WTF? 
The Revolution will not be televised The Revolution will not be televised The Revolution will not be televised The Revolution will not be televised The Revolution will not be televised The Revolution will not be televised 

Goku can easily use Shunkan Idou! in battle....

None of your arguments will work..Goku can sense the Flash's movements easily because he is a living being, he has spirit... and he will be right in front of Goku fighting. Goku Dodging a light speed attack has nothing to do with going the speed of light or more, it has to do with his detection abilities. DB characters can sense people dimensions away long before the time it would take the light to reach them from that place. So, if a lightspeed attack comes at them, they can detect it en route to them and have a chance to dodge it, even if they move a fraction of the speed of light. Goku's senses are BEYOND that of the flash.

Flash can't steal Goku's speed because he is NOT governed by the speedforce! 

Goku wins this battle.


----------



## SoulTaker (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> WTF?
> *Cut wall of links that don't work*
> 
> Goku can easily use Shunkan Idou! in battle....



If you're using the Cell fight,he didn't instantly use it.He had to charge the kamehameha and then lock onto Cell.The Flash won't sit here and let him do any of that,hell he won't even see the Flash.



Phenomenol said:


> None of your arguments will work..Goku can sense the Flash's movements easily because he is a living being, he has spirit... and he will be right in front of Goku fighting. Goku Dodging a light speed attack has nothing to do with going the speed of light or more, it has to do with his detection abilities. DB characters can sense people dimensions away long before the time it would take the light to reach them from that place. So, if a lightspeed attack comes at them, they can detect it en route to them and have a chance to dodge it, even if they move a fraction of the speed of light. Goku's senses are BEYOND that of the flash.
> 
> Flash can't steal Goku's speed because he is NOT governed by the speedforce!
> 
> Goku wins this battle.


Because Goku has never lost track of anyone during a fight,especially someone with a relatively large ki and considerably slower than the Flash.So my question is if Goku can lose track of huge ki signatures larger than the Flash but also slower than him then how does he keep track of the Flash.

Flash Fact: The Flash owns Goku hard.


Superman isn't governed by the Speedforce yet Flash can affect his speed.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:


> If you're using the Cell fight,he didn't instantly use it.He had to charge the kamehameha and then lock onto Cell.The Flash won't sit here and let him do any of that,hell he won't even see the Flash.
> 
> Because Goku has never lost track of anyone during a fight,especially someone with a relatively large ki and considerably slower than the Flash.So my question is if Goku can lose track of huge ki signatures larger than the Flash but also slower than him then how does he keep track of the Flash.
> 
> ...



Goku INSTANTLY used the Shunkan Idou technique...It was the POWER UP for the Kamehameha that took long. The Flash can't beat that.

Prove to me what the speed of Dragonball characters is? If their able to shake Goku's senses they must be FASTER than light. Goku only loses track of people when he uses his eyes. As you see he was able to fight Cell even after he lost track because he was using his senses to keep up. The Flash speed argument is not going to work.

Cause Goku isn't governed by the speedforce. the only reason Flash can still speed from people like Superman  is because the speedforce governs their movement and he happens to tap into the speedforce. the speedforce doesn't govern anything Goku does.


----------



## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> WTF?
> The Revolution will not be televised The Revolution will not be televised The Revolution will not be televised The Revolution will not be televised The Revolution will not be televised The Revolution will not be televised
> 
> Goku can easily use Shunkan Idou! in battle....


WOW! Flash can run in battle!



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> None of your arguments will work..Goku can sense the Flash's movements easily because he is a living being, he has spirit... and he will be right in front of Goku fighting.


By your logic, since you're inputting Flash with Ki, Garfield has ki so he can fly if he trained hard enough, Calvin and Hobbes can both fly, Naruto can fly, heck I can fly!



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku Dodging a light speed attack has nothing to do with going the speed of light or more, it has to do with his detection abilities.
> DB characters can sense people dimensions away long before the time it would take the light to reach them from that place.


Yet Goku had trouble sensing Cell when he was going at a speed far beyond that of  Goku's. And Goku can't casually just sense a being dimensions away. He has to concentrate and search and even you should know it's too much time for him before Flash kills him.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> So, if a lightspeed attack comes at them, they can detect it en route to them and have a chance to dodge it, even if they move a fraction of the speed of light. Goku's senses are BEYOND that of the flash.


Yeah, senses for food.
Flash does not have Ki, you're trying to override Gardner Fox's canon even though you have no right to....



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Flash can't steal Goku's speed because he is NOT governed by the speedforce!


Fine, then don't be a hypocrite and say that Flash has Ki. I can say that EVERYONE is governed by the Speedforce because almost everyone in the DCU is governed by the speedforce.

Same with DBZ: Almost everyone in the DBU uses Ki and you say that Goku isn't governed by the speedforce. It's the same analogy. No speedstealing = no Ki sense and no IT for Goku.




			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku wins this battle.


In your mind, because it's one small tape recorder that resets itself after every single time you post and you, jplaya, and Jaydaime just repeat the same thing over and over again.


----------



## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Goku INSTANTLY used the Shunkan Idou technique...It was the POWER UP for the Kamehameha that took long. The Flash can't beat that.


The Flash would be moving at lightspeed and with human equivalent Ki(using an impossible hypothetical situation that he has Ki), yet Cell was standing still and when Goku It'D in front of him, he was able to utter a word before he was blasted.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Prove to me what the speed of Dragonball characters is? If their able to shake Goku's senses they must be FASTER than light. Goku only loses track of people when he uses his eyes. *As you see he was able to fight Cell even after he lost track because he was using his senses to keep up.* The Flash speed argument is not going to work.


More like as soon as Cell got to a speed where Goku could sense him again.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Space said:


> WOW! Flash can run in battle! By your logic, since you're inputting Flash with Ki, Garfield has ki so he can fly if he trained hard enough, Calvin and Hobbes can both fly, Naruto can fly, heck I can fly!Yet Goku had trouble sensing Cell when he was going at a speed far beyond that of  Goku's. And Goku can't casually just sense a being dimensions away. He has to concentrate and search and even you should know it's too much time for him before Flash kills him.Yeah, senses for food. Flash does not have Ki, you're trying to override Gardner Fox's canon even though you have no right to....Fine, then don't be a hypocrite and say that Flash has Ki. I can say that EVERYONE is governed by the Speedforce because almost everyone in the DCU is governed by the speedforce.Same with DBZ: Almost everyone in the DBU uses Ki and you say that Goku isn't governed by the speedforce. It's the same analogy. No speedstealing = no Ki sense and no IT for Goku.
> 
> In your mind, because it's one small tape recorder that resets itself after every single time you post and you, jplaya, and Jaydaime just repeat the same thing over and over again.



Ki is spirit!! EVERYTHING that lives from trees to birds has KI!!! Ki even exists everywhere.....Your spirit is ki. Yes, you even have Ki....Your argument on that is NOT working. Goku will be able to sense Flash with no problems at all.
The Speedforce is not working, Cause Goku isn't governed by the speedforce. the only reason Flash can still speed from people like Superman is because the speedforce governs their movement and he happens to tap into the speedforce. the speedforce doesn't govern anything Goku does.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Space said:


> The Flash would be moving at lightspeed and with human equivalent Ki(using an impossible hypothetical situation that he has Ki), yet Cell was standing still and when Goku It'D in front of him, he was able to utter a word before he was blasted.
> 
> 
> More like as soon as Cell got to a speed where Goku could sense him again.



The Flash takes too long to reach lightspeed, he has to merge with speedforce for that. Goku was using his eyes to track cell NOT his senses. As you see Goku was keeping up with Cell just fine after that altercation. Goku will sense the Flash's movemets.

Cell slowed down for Goku? Your just chatting crap now.


----------



## SoulTaker (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Goku INSTANTLY used the Shunkan Idou technique...It was the POWER UP for the Kamehameha that took long. The Flash can't beat that.



Proof?And before you ask me to prove it,the burden of proof is on you.



Phenomenol said:


> Prove to me what the speed of Dragonball characters is? If their able to shake Goku's senses they must be FASTER than light. Goku only loses track of people when he uses his eyes. As you see he was able to fight Cell even after he lost track because he was using his senses to keep up. The Flash speed argument is not going to work.



We know that they aren't faster than light because time passes from the start of their battles to the end of their battles.People can converse about the events of the battle,and if you argue otherwise you're saying people in the DBverse speak at FTL speeds.By the way what happened to Goku has god like senses and can sense anything?What makes it impossible for Goku to lose the Flash like he did Cell,the same Flash who is much faster than Cell and has a signifigantly lower ki.



Phenomenol said:


> Cause Goku isn't governed by the speedforce. the only reason Flash can still speed from people like Superman  is because the speedforce governs their movement and he happens to tap into the speedforce. the speedforce doesn't govern anything Goku does.



Superman is not governed by the Speedforce,you've even said it yourself in the Superman vs Goku topic.Superman's speed is his own and not from the Speedforce.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:


> Proof?And before you ask me to prove it,the burden of proof is on you.
> 
> We know that they aren't faster than light because time passes from the start of their battles to the end of their battles.People can converse about the events of the battle,and if you argue otherwise you're saying people in the DBverse speak at FTL speeds.By the way what happened to Goku has god like senses and can sense anything?What makes it impossible for Goku to lose the Flash like he did Cell,the same Flash who is much faster than Cell and has a signifigantly lower ki. Superman is not governed by the Speedforce,you've even said it yourself in the Superman vs Goku topic.Superman's speed is his own and not from the Speedforce.



Proof? Are you that dense? Goku did NOT need to lock on because CEll was right in front of his face, otherwise you would see the two fingers to his head. 

You still didn't prove the speed of Dragonball? Goku's senses are godlike, Goku only loses track of people when he uses his eyes. As you see he was able to fight Cell even after he lost track because he was using his senses to keep up with him in battle. I stated that Superman CAN'T use the speedforce, all motion is governed by the speedforce in DC and not in dragonball.


----------



## SoulTaker (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Ki is spirit!! EVERYTHING that lives from trees to birds has KI!!! Ki even exists everywhere.....Your spirit is ki. Yes, you even have Ki....Your argument on that is NOT working. Goku will be able to sense Flash with no problems at all.
> The Speedforce is not working, Cause Goku isn't governed by the speedforce. the only reason Flash can still speed from people like Superman is because the speedforce governs their movement and he happens to tap into the speedforce. the speedforce doesn't govern anything Goku does.



Lets pretend that Superman taps into the speedforce,and that parts similar to that are true of your post.You're saying that the Flash has ki,but Goku does not have speed for the Flash to steal?Thats called a double standard,andis wrong anyway since Superman is not connected to the Speedforce.



Phenomenol said:


> The Flash takes too long to reach lightspeed, he has to merge with speedforce for that. Goku was using his eyes to track cell NOT his senses. As you see Goku was keeping up with Cell just fine after that altercation. Goku will sense the Flash's movemets.
> 
> Cell slowed down for Goku? Your just chatting crap now.



Yet we have showings that show the Flash doesn't need to merge with the speedforce to go FTL.Such as fighting Zoom and circling the world 99 times I believe in 1 second.Sight is a sense btw/

It's plausible seeing as how they don't fight at super speeds for the complete duration of their fights.


----------



## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> The Flash takes too long to reach lightspeed, he has to merge with speedforce for that. *Goku was using his eyes to track cell NOT his senses. *As you see Goku was keeping up with Cell just fine after that altercation. Goku will sense the Flash's movemets.


Wth....? and your proof for that statement? Why the hell would Goku "turn off" his ki sense on the biggest battle that would decide the fate of the universe? That's got to be the most idiotic move on Goku's part.

Flash does not need to merge with the speedforce. The speedforce supports him and he's long past that stage. 




			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Cell slowed down for Goku? Your just chatting crap now.


Then prove how in hell Goku's senses can "catch up." AT never explained anything of the sort.

You're making an abridged series of Dragonball as you go.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:


> Lets pretend that Superman taps into the speedforce,and that parts similar to that are true of your post.You're saying that the Flash has ki,but Goku does not have speed for the Flash to steal?Thats called a double standard,andis wrong anyway since Superman is not connected to the Speedforce.Yet we have showings that show the Flash doesn't need to merge with the speedforce to go FTL.Such as fighting Zoom and circling the world 99 times I believe in 1 second.Sight is a sense btw/
> 
> It's plausible seeing as how they don't fight at super speeds for the complete duration of their fights.



Ki RESIDES IN EVERYTHING the SPEEDFORCE does NOT. Goku is NOT governed by the speedforce period.

Flash had to ABSORB speed to fight Zoom so that does not count. You still have yet to prove that DBZ don't move at FTL speeds?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Space said:


> Wth....? and your proof for that statement? Why the hell would Goku "turn off" his ki sense on the biggest battle that would decide the fate of the universe? That's got to be the most idiotic move on Goku's part.Flash does not need to merge with the speedforce. The speedforce supports him and he's long past that stage. Then prove how in hell Goku's senses can "catch up." AT never explained anything of the sort.
> 
> You're making an abridged series of Dragonball as you go.



Have you ever heard of underestimating an opponent! He is a Saiya-jin a guy who fights just for the hell of it. AT already had it explained in the manga! DBZ characters don't follow their opponents with their eyes they sense the movements!!!! That is how Goku was able to keep up with Cell otherwise his ass would have been dead instantly. Flash does need to merge with the speedforce to achieve lightspeed or faster.... Your speed argument is not going to work.


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## SoulTaker (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Ki RESIDES IN EVERYTHING the SPEEDFORCE does NOT. Goku is NOT governed by the speedforce period.



In the DBU it may,but not in the DCU.And the Speedforce does not govern all speed in the DCU,or else Superman would no longer have his speed since the Speedforce is trapped inside of Bart.



Phenomenol said:


> Flash had to ABSORB speed to fight Zoom so that does not count. You still have yet to prove that DBZ don't move at FTL speeds?



It's your job to prove that DBZ characters move FTL,the burden of proof is on you buddy.And even then I've proven before that they don't fight at super speeds for whole fights.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:


> In the DBU it may,but not in the DCU.And the Speedforce does not govern all speed in the DCU,or else Superman would no longer have his speed since the Speedforce is trapped inside of Bart. It's your job to prove that DBZ characters move FTL,the burden of proof is on you buddy.And even then I've proven before that they don't fight at super speeds for whole fights.



Superman's motion is GOVERNED by the speedforce hence why Flash can steel his speed. Nobody knows how fast the dbz characters are and nobody can prove it because the powers fluctuate throughout the series. I am not the one saying that DBZ characters are slow, So I ask all of you......prove to me that they don't move at FTL speeds?


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## Endless Mike (Dec 6, 2006)

Gohan said:


> It does, because lightning from cloud-ground for example requires a stronger electric field, therefore lightning such as positive lightning have as much as 300,000 amperes and one billion volts and therefore the transfer of electrical energy(charge) through the air is alot faster.



And lightning which can destroy islands, zap giant beanstalks in half, and blow holes in mountains _doesn't_ require a strong charge?  



> I never said it was millions of times slower, i said that not all electrical energy transfer are the same. Enel's max is 200 million volts so obviously its faster, but im saying that saying it is 1/3 sol depends since the speed of lightning varies, and usually the higher end like 500 millions volts + = 1/3 SOL + and sometihng like 1 billion volts = 1/2 SOL.



Don't say "SOL". It's a ridiculously stupid abbreviation. Say "c".

Also, as long as you admit it's relativistic, my argument holds.



> Except you just added in that argument now. But the point was, you can't show 2 arguments in the one because the latter impedes your first argument. You see you were trying to show that you shouldn't take the statements literally because it could become ridiculous when you look at people like Luffy moving SOL, except it didn't become ridiculous because of taking the statements literally but it became ridiculous because you made groundless jumps in speed, meaning your example to prove a point does not work.



Speak clearly, I can't parse your run - on sentence. But the "groundless jumps in speed" is another thing DBZ fans do, I was applying that as well.



> No, im saying that because it is from say cloud-ground it has a very high voltage and therefore a fast electrical energy transfer. Enel also has 200 million volts but to say that it is as fast as _*any*_ lightning is the same is wrong, because the speed of lightning varies depending on the lightning strike.



Yet it's still a significant fraction of c, perhaps even more than 1/3rd.



> NO i didn't realise that, but that is irrelevant to what i am saying.



Doesn't seem that way to me....



> Well you havn't really shown why taken the statements literrally are wrong because in your example the reason luffy's speed was ridiculous was NOT because we took Enel's statement but because you made ridiculous jumps in speed as well as you missed out other factors.



Which is, again, the exact kind of thing that DBZ fans use for their arguments. I'm simply applying their tactics to One Piece to show how they don't work.



> I know they are fallacious, as the examples were to demonstrate how much you could of been off, and thus this 'off' was what was making the speeds of luffy ridiculous, not the factor of taking statements literally, which was what you were using to try to show how much it would make speeds of people such as luffy seem ridiculous.



Of course I'm off! I already said that I didn't seriously believe OP characters were that fast, I just made that argument to show that the kind of logic most DBZ supporters use doesn't work.



> not really. That actually depends on how much head start you giving me, which would mean i already had a head start in distance and that wouldn't be an even speed comparison.
> 
> But you see, if we were at the exact same place and were fighting, i would only need to fly 1/20th of a millisecond before i am out of your sight and behind you, that also includes if you use that 1/20th of a millisecond yourself to gain some distance, because i would be 5km ahead, and 1km is already more than enough to be out of your sight, and the other 4km to curve around and be behind you.



Yet you will still be moving slow enough for your opponent to track you, if he can move and react at over 90% of your speed....



> Except to simply say the speed of enel's electricity is the same as any lightning in the book that you have seen traveld at blah blah speed is wrong.



The speed of lightning in nature varies, so I was trying to come up with an average....


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 6, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> *snip bullshit*



Blah blah blah, appeal to motive and ad hominems don't impress me.



> Goku was travelling at Mach 17 on the snakeway.
> 
> (from other forums)
> """"
> ...



Brilliant, Einstein, yet you ignored the fact that I said he's not confirmed to be sound speed OVER SHORT DISTANCES. I don't doubt his travelling speed (Gotenks' feat also has a lower limit above sound speed).



> Now lets see, Goku was around powerlevel 8000 when he was going at mach 17. Now everybody here knows with training and every power upgrade speed always increases as well.



Yet it's not stated or confirmed exactly how much it increases. Power levels are meaningless, they don't quantify anything in a linear way that can be effectively modeled mathematically.



> Now if Goku was able to go mach17 on PL of 8000, Super Buu Gohan is said to have a powerlevel of 6,700,000,000.



And here's another steaming pile of bullshit.

NO POWER LEVELS WERE GIVEN AFTER THE FRIEZA SAGA.

Any that you see are simply fanon.



> Now 6,700,000,000/8000=837500
> That means Super Buu Gohan was 837500 times more powerful than Base Goku that went on the snakeway.



See above.



> Mach17 = 12 940.5199 mph
> mach17*837500 = 10837685416.25mph
> 
> Speed of Light = 670616629 mph.



Even if that power level figure was canon, this wouldn't be true either, since power levels do not grant linear speed increases.



> But not only that but majin buu was beaten the crap out of by a regular vegetto who is even faster.



Yet, IN CANON, there's no way to determine their speed.



> Right okay, but as usual dbz hater's forget the fact that goku was punching and kicking witht weight's strapped to his limb's which is a hell of alot different then just throwing them above your head.
> Oh and I allmost forgot arn't the kai planet's at least 10 time's normal gravity which would make them 400 ton's not 40.



*sigh*

I've refuted this so many times it's getting tiring.

1. He was punching and kicking before he had 40 tons. He only had like one or two tons when he was doing that. When he had 40 tons, he couldn't even move until he went SSJ.

Secondly, the gravity of that particular planet was never stated, and even if it was 10 times, it would still be 40 tons, since tons is a measure of weight, not mass, and thus is geared specifically for the gravity it's in.

In other words, if you are lifting 40 tons, you will be experiencing the same amount of pressure on you no matter what gravity you're in, although a 40 ton weight in one gravity well could be less massive than a 40 ton weight in another gravity well. If it was 400 tons, they would call it 400 tons.



> Lol and that was when he had a pl of about 450 yes?



And, again, power levels are meaningless except in saying that one DBZ character is stronger than another.



> and I find it funny the way your trying your very best to put dbz down by typing only about him getting to king kai's planet but not how fast he got back.
> Also read my post above or at least compare flash with the goku of now, not at the very start of dbz



Check your facts first.



> What more shite? no thank's, Anyway if you?re wondering howcome if they all can travel soundspeed or lightspeed but they didn?t, is because they had no protection from Sonic Boom. Flash has super speed so he can go lightspeed without hurting his environment but sadly, this is not in DBZ, and fights that take place at speeds faster than light in DBZ which are generally shown as shockwaves crumble mountains and land beneath them.



Because Flash is protected by the speedforce, he can pick and choose how he interacts with his environment.



> That?s because of Sonic booms generated by little flight at sound or light speed while fighting.
> 
> So rest assured, DBZ can trip lightspeed by mid-DBZ i think.
> And I also think goku's combat speed which is in light speed should be able to keep up with flash's.
> So tell me how is flash going to lightspeed punch somebody who is equally as fast or maybe the slightest bit slower then him?



He's not, because GOKU ISN'T THAT FAST. Which I just proved.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 6, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> I wont use as many number's this time for you then.
> In the manga itself, Gotenks states that he went a few dozen times around earth and took a nap. Gotenks limit was 30 mins. A Nap, if you ask any person out there is at least half an hour to 2 hours. That means. And by a few, if Gotenks at least means 3-5, that means he went around the world 36-50 times in a matter of mere seconds.
> A light takes 7 rounds of earth in one second.



Bullshit. Saying he went around the earth that fast in only a few seconds when he had 29 whole minutes is the pinacle of dishonesty. Did you forget that afterwards, it took him a whole minute to reach Buu's house?


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## warrior1000 (Dec 6, 2006)

but he was not ssj 3 then.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 6, 2006)

ram619 said:


> 1.about zanzoken i did not really said that they travel and fight faster than light,what i said was they can become faster than light through the use of zanzoken.why?coz no speed of sound/light can leave a blur of image within short distance.that's fact and not assumption.leaving a blur of image is enough proof that is faster than light,coz how can you leave your image which we see coz there is light if you not moving faster than light."action speaks louder than words"



This is the oldest argument in the book. You don't have to be faster than light to leave an afterimage, you just have to be faster than the eye can track. According to your logic, characters in Naruto, Bleach, Hunter X Hunter, and Rorouni Kenshin, for example, are FTL. 



> 2.about hasshuken i did not really said that the user can travel or move at the speed of light but no speed of sound or near the speed of light can make your 8 arms real that can attack/block at the same time and that's fact.imagine all 8 arms are real because of its speed that is enough proof again "action speaks louder than words".



Do you have any actual calculations for this that put it anywhere near lightspeed? If not, shut up.



> 3.remember ssj gotenks who went around the world few dozen times that leaves trail of light around the world while still circling around the planet and he did take a nap after that. leaving a circled trail of light around the planet while still circling around the planet was enough proof that was faster than light.no speed of sound/light can do that,"action speaks louder than words"



And yet I am still seeing no numbers.... saying it is FTL without even doing the calculations is just lazy and ignorant.

Not to mention it took him a whole minute afterwards to reach Buu's house.



> 4.remember vegeta at planet namek who read ginew forces ki at their space pod which travels galaxy-to-galaxy (speed of light) while on vegeta's fight with 4th form freeza,vegeta cannot felt freeza's ki that moves so fast.fact,only with the same speed or greater can react at that speed.



I refuted this one a long time ago.

1. Vegeta didn't sense the Ginyu's ki until only a minute or so before they arrived. That means their ships were likely entering into orbit around the planet and decelerating to prepare for landing.

2. Even though the Ginyu's ships would have been moving faster than Frieza objectively, from Vegeta's perspective, the Ginyu's ki would have been moving hardly at all, in a straight, predictable path, since they were so far away. However, Freiza was so close that he could be on one side of Vegeta one second and on the other side the next. This effect is called parallax, the Ginyu's ki was coming from one sustained source in one direction, while Freiza was moving all around him in all directions. It's the same reason you can easily see a jet plane moving across the sky, but have trouble tracking a fly buzzing around erratically. It doesn't mean the fly is faster than the plane.



> 5.is it obvious that when goku uses his kaiohken it multiply his speed,some of you makes yourself blind to the truth.why?coz at the end of dbz goku was fighting (not travel) quicker than lightning and able to read ki while fighting just as mr. popo mention that he must learn.



According to a midget who was speaking in metaphors and poetic language like "empty your soul" and "be calm as the sky". "Faster than lightning" is a very common figure of speech, do you think Flipper the dolphin can travel at relativistic speed?



> lightning was 93000 miles per sec



That's its maximum speed, in vacuum. In nature it's usually much slower.



> light was 186000 miles per sec = kaiohken x 2



Since when is kaioken a linear speed increase? Provide evidence of this claim.



> 6.when vegeta/nappa approaching on earth no z- warriors read their ki as they come close at the planet unlike vegeta at planet namek who read ginew forces ki despite that their in space pod (galaxy o galaxy=speed of light),factnly with the same speed can react at that speed.



What? I remember their arrival being detected....



> about magic it breaks the law of science and no law of science can counter it only greater power,unlike the law of science you just need to follow its law and reverse the effects.



Bullshit. Magic doesn't exist in the real world, the speedforce (which is a law of science in DC) doesn't exist in the real world either. So you can't arbitrarily apply properties to it.



> which is more dangerous turn into coffe candy or steal your speed?



I fail to see how that is relevant since Goku can't transmute people....



> question:how can dc speedsters steal speed if he hasnt moving.speed steal/lend was not telekinetic that the user dont need to move,the user must partcipate.



So your strategy for Goku is for him to just stand still? Wonderful, that'll just make it easier for Flash.



> about theory your talking about kage no yume,we all see  dbz characters raising their ki and all the rocks/stones are levitating then earth is shaking.that is enough proof that they alter the gravity or create their own gravity.



Total bullshit. This theory ignores the very predictions of the science it is predicated on. If they could really create enough gravity to negate the pull of the earth's gravitational pull on such large objects as those rocks, they would rip the earth apart. The logical explanation is that their ki creates an invisible force that counters the gravity that holds the rocks down, pushing them up.



> fact light can escape a blackhole,well dbz characters shown they can alter gravity their just like a blackhole,the higher the ki the greater it is.



Bullshit. See above.



> about infinite mass punch it is just near the speed fo light,yes its true that it can demolish anyone but dbz characters are faster.



More bullshit.



> my proof here is "action speaks louder than words",you dont need to wait for someone to say it,just to see the fact was enough proof.



And yet your "facts" are completely unsubstantiated assumptions with no numbers to back them up. 



> dont count dbz scenes when there were no speed feats



So we should only pay attention to the scenes that support your side?


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## Endless Mike (Dec 6, 2006)

ram619 said:


> i know flash can go faster than light but not in a fight coz time travel is dependent on distance and fighting is at short distance.
> 
> in fighting flash was at 99% speed of light
> 
> ...



Flash vs. Zoom. They fought at FTL speed around the entire world dozens of times in under a second.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> WTF?*snip*
> 
> Goku can easily use Shunkan Idou! in battle....



Here we see your idiotic hypocrisy again.

So apparently, simply jumping it to rescue Tien and Picollo and then jumping out, without exchanging a single punch or attack, is "battle", while Flash fighting Zoom all over the world, punching, dodging, blocking, etc. is not "battle". I don't know what kind of bullshit definition of "battle" you're using, but it certainly isn't the one that 99.9999% of people are familiar with.

Furthermore, he never said Goku couldn't use IT in battle, he said he couldn't use it in *this* battle. That's because he can't think fast enough to use it before he dies.



> None of your arguments will work..Goku can sense the Flash's movements easily because he is a living being, he has spirit... and he will be right in front of Goku fighting.



You keep claiming this over and over again, so I ask you: PROVE IT.

If you don't prove it, then I will accept your concession.

Keep in mind Goku loses track of people with ki comparable to his own when they are just moving fast around him, nowhere near Flash's speed. He would not be able to track someone with speed far beyond any DBZ character and ki only equivalent to that of a normal human.



> Goku Dodging a light speed attack has nothing to do with going the speed of light or more, it has to do with his detection abilities.



That's nice, but Goku has never dodged a lightspeed attack.



> DB characters can sense people dimensions away long before the time it would take the light to reach them from that place. So, if a lightspeed attack comes at them, they can detect it en route to them and have a chance to dodge it, even if they move a fraction of the speed of light.



That's assuming it starts off far away enough that they have time to dodge, and that it moves in a straight line like a beam or a bullet and can't change its course to home in on Goku.

If there was some villain on the moon who fired a ki beam that could be sensed towards Goku on earth at lightspeed, Goku would have a chance to dodge it, since it would take a little over a second to reach him and he could sense it in advance.

However, if a lightspeed guy starts off only a few hundred meters away from him and has negligible ki, then even if he senses him, he won't be able to move fast enough to dodge. Even if he can, the guy can simply change his course to home in on Goku and hit him.



> Goku's senses are BEYOND that of the flash.



Which is irrelevant, since he will not have time to sense or react to anything.



> Flash can't steal Goku's speed because he is NOT governed by the speedforce!



Bullshit. Goku moves, therefore he has kinetic energy. Therefore Flash can steal it.



> Goku wins this battle.



Maybe on Bizarro World....


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## Endless Mike (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Goku INSTANTLY used the Shunkan Idou technique...It was the POWER UP for the Kamehameha that took long. The Flash can't beat that.



Yes, because Flash is just going to sit there for 15 seconds while he powers up his kamehameha..... 



> Prove to me what the speed of Dragonball characters is?



The highest reliable calc we have is around 1/898th lightspeed.



> If their able to shake Goku's senses they must be FASTER than light.



Oh, FFS.

This is circular reasoning....

A much more likely possibility is that they are simply moving so fast that he can't process the ki signals' precise location in his mind before the enemy moves.



> Goku only loses track of people when he uses his eyes. As you see he was able to fight Cell even after he lost track because he was using his senses to keep up. The Flash speed argument is not going to work.



Really, is that why Freiza appeared right behind him when he didn't even expect it? 



> Cause Goku isn't governed by the speedforce. the only reason Flash can still speed from people like Superman  is because the speedforce governs their movement and he happens to tap into the speedforce. the speedforce doesn't govern anything Goku does.



Bullshit. You say Goku doesn't have speed to be stolen, yet you say the Flash has ki.... do you realize the hypocrisy in your position?

It was never stated that the Flash has ki.... yet you assume he does. You say he has ki because all living beings have ki.... I could just as easily say that Goku's speed can be stolen because everything that moves has kinetic energy, and thus can have their speed stolen....

I might as well ask you to prove that any of Goku's powers would work at all in the DCU.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Ki is spirit!! EVERYTHING that lives from trees to birds has KI!!! Ki even exists everywhere.....Your spirit is ki. Yes, you even have Ki....



Wrong, bucko.

The concept of "ki" or "chi" stems from Eastern philosophy.... there's absolutely no scientific evidence that it actually exists in real life.



> Your argument on that is NOT working. Goku will be able to sense Flash with no problems at all.



I ask you again:

*PROVE.

IT.*



> The Speedforce is not working, Cause Goku isn't governed by the speedforce. the only reason Flash can still speed from people like Superman is because the speedforce governs their movement and he happens to tap into the speedforce. the speedforce doesn't govern anything Goku does.



He moves, therefore he has kinetic energy. If he has kinetic energy, his speed can be stolen.

This makes more sense than your ki arguments, since kinetic energy is something that is actually confirmed to exist in real life.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> The Flash takes too long to reach lightspeed, he has to merge with speedforce for that.



Bullshit. He fought Zoom without merging with the Speedforce, raced Krakkl without doing so, Scorpio and CBG have way more examples, I'm sure.



> Goku was using his eyes to track cell NOT his senses. As you see Goku was keeping up with Cell just fine after that altercation. Goku will sense the Flash's movemets.



What?

Prove this with a scan or something, because I don't remember him using his eyes.



> Cell slowed down for Goku? Your just chatting crap now.



No, Cell was taken by surprise and couldn't move out of the way fast enough.

Because he's not that fast.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Ki RESIDES IN EVERYTHING the SPEEDFORCE does NOT. Goku is NOT governed by the speedforce period.



Bullshit. He moves, therefore he has kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is in everything that moves. Therefore his speed can be stolen.



> Flash had to ABSORB speed to fight Zoom so that does not count.



Again, bullshit. I already explained this, Jesse Quick just gave him the Speed Formula, which he was reluctant to use, but he memorized it and later can use it at will.



> You still have yet to prove that DBZ don't move at FTL speeds?



Burden of proof is on you.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Have you ever heard of underestimating an opponent! He is a Saiya-jin a guy who fights just for the hell of it. AT already had it explained in the manga! DBZ characters don't follow their opponents with their eyes they sense the movements!!!! That is how Goku was able to keep up with Cell otherwise his ass would have been dead instantly.



Wait, let me get this straight:

DBZ character's sense their opponents' movements by their ki, without using their eyes.

Yet Goku was only trying to use his eyes to sense Cell?

  

Do you have a scan to prove this? Because it sounds pretty stupid.



> Flash does need to merge with the speedforce to achieve lightspeed or faster.... Your speed argument is not going to work.



I've already disproved that, simply saying something over and over again doesn't make it true.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Superman's motion is GOVERNED by the speedforce hence why Flash can steel his speed.



Then how come he can still move, while the entire Speed Force is inside of Bart Allen? 



> Nobody knows how fast the dbz characters are and nobody can prove it because the powers fluctuate throughout the series.



For once, you've made a reasonable statement.



> I am not the one saying that DBZ characters are slow, So I ask all of you......prove to me that they don't move at FTL speeds?



And now you're back to the bullshit.

We can't prove a negative, the burden of proof is always on the positive claim. You have to prove they *do* move FTL, or else they don't.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 6, 2006)

warrior1000 said:


> but he was not ssj 3 then.



And your point is....?

Unless SSJ3 increases your speed by over 1000 times, then it's completely irrelevant. Considering that no speed increase of that magnitude was ever seen anywhere else in DBZ, that is highly unlikely. Besides, we have virtually no speed feats from SSJ3 - level or above characters, so proving something like that would be impossible anyway.


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## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Have you ever heard of underestimating an opponent! He is a Saiya-jin a guy who fights just for the hell of it. AT already had it explained in the manga! *DBZ characters don't follow their opponents with their eyes they sense the movements!!!! That is how Goku was able to keep up with Cell otherwise his ass would have been dead instantly.* Flash does need to merge with the speedforce to achieve lightspeed or faster.... Your speed argument is not going to work.



Yet earlier you said Goku was only using his eyes to track Cell...

If you're not including speedstealing from Flash, then there's no ki sense or IT from Goku. It's the exact same analogy. You saying otherwise is pure fanboyism and overriding *both* author's canon.


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## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Ki is spirit!! EVERYTHING that lives from trees to birds has KI!!! Ki even exists everywhere.....Your spirit is ki. Yes, you even have Ki....Your argument on that is NOT working. Goku will be able to sense Flash with no problems at all.
> The Speedforce is not working, Cause Goku isn't governed by the speedforce. the only reason Flash can still speed from people like Superman is because the speedforce governs their movement and he happens to tap into the speedforce. the speedforce doesn't govern anything Goku does.



Then Goku has Chakra, reiatsu, and Karma, judging by your fanbased logic. 

Mind telling me why you're "inputting" Ki into Flash when Gardner never equipped Flash with such a life force in the first place? I doubt AT would say every single character in any show/comic has Ki. Even people in real life. 

Phenom, you've become delusional. Since humans in DBU can fly(from Gohan teaching Videl how to fly), you're saying that people in real life can fly as well? This has gone way beyond the canon and now it's Phenomenol's delusional mind with Goku's face everywhere.

You've gotta teach me how to fly like Goku then. I would do it all day.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Space said:


> Yet earlier you said Goku was only using his eyes to track Cell...*If you're not including speedstealing from Flash, then there's no ki sense or IT from Goku. It's the exact same analogy*. You saying otherwise is pure fanboyism and overriding *both* author's canon.
> 
> Then Goku has Chakra, reiatsu, and Karma, judging by your fanbased logic.
> 
> ...



No, Ki is SPIRIT! if you are a LIVING BEING.....and last time I checked Flash is ALIVE. Goku can use IT EASILY to kill the Flash if he wanted but it is not needed in this battle. Flash can NOT steel Goku's speed because Goku's motion is NOT governed by the Speedforce.

Chakra is SPIRIT!!!.It is all the same..... It is another way of saying Ki....... Ki RESIDES in everyone from plants to humans, even you yourself has KI (spirit). Are you breathing and talking?....Then you are alive which means you have a SPIRIT and that is what Goku senses....your spirit.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 6, 2006)

Hey I just thought of something. Anyway here it is.

In dragonball, Goten threw the rocks through the mountain they went through clearly the mass of the rock would have to be high overwise it would shatter.

Throwing the rock at relative speeds wouldn't increase the mass that greatly so the rock would have to travel at a relavistic speed for the mass to increase that greatly?

Anyway Gohan dodged multiple rocks travelling at a high speed.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 6, 2006)

gunners said:


> Hey I just thought of something. Anyway here it is.
> 
> In dragonball, Goten threw the rocks through the mountain they went through clearly the mass of the rock would have to be high overwise it would shatter.
> 
> ...



Actually if the rocks had enough kinetic energy it wouldn't matter if it shattered or not, it would still punch through the mountain. Mass is only part of it, its all about kinetic energy. A marshmallow hitting the earth at even 1/2 or 1/3 the speed of light would have the kinetic energy of a nuclear bomb lol If those rocks were traveling anywhere near relativistic speeds it would cause A LOT more damage to the mountain when it hit then making small holes in it


----------



## Gunners (Dec 6, 2006)

> Actually if the rocks had enough kinetic energy it wouldn't matter if it shattered or not, it would still punch through the mountain. Mass is only part of it, its all about kinetic energy. A marshmallow hitting the earth at even 1/2 or 1/3 the speed of light would have the kinetic energy of a nuclear bomb lol If those rocks were traveling anywhere near relativistic speeds it would cause A LOT more damage to the mountain when it hit then making small holes in it



Ooohh shame. What happens when you use fucked up knowledge XD.

How fast do you think those rocks were travelling to bust through the mountain clear? It is possible to work it out I think thinking about it.


----------



## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> No, Ki is SPIRIT! *if you are a LIVING BEING.....and last time I checked Flash is ALIVE*. Goku can use IT EASILY to kill the Flash if he wanted but it is not needed in this battle. Flash can NOT steel Goku's speed because Goku's motion is NOT governed by the Speedforce.
> 
> Chakra is SPIRIT!!!.It is all the same..... It is another way of saying Ki....... Ki RESIDES in everyone from plants to humans, even you yourself has KI (spirit). Are you breathing and talking?....Then you are alive which means you have a SPIRIT and that is what Goku senses....your spirit.



Then are you saying Garfield has ki?

If everyone in real life has Ki, how come we aren't zooming through the air and throwing airplanes in the recycle bin?

The first nanoseconds of this battle starts with pure linear speed. Flash can go up to Goku and vibrate him to death. And no, his body is not as durable as a planet it will not resist it.

Flash would go lightspeed then go back in time, and when he goes back to when the battle first starts, he would be come out still at lightspeed and can IMP Goku's brains out.
Goku has no defense or endurance to match that of Flash's.
I'm not being a fanboy either- and Phenomenol stop repeating things over when even you know they're lost causes.
Ki *DOES NOT* reside in everyone, why don't you argue with scientists


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 6, 2006)

Space said:


> Then are you saying Garfield has ki?




yes he does


----------



## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:


> yes he does



The most laughable comment in the history of Western Civilization.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 6, 2006)

> The most laughable comment in the history of Western Civilization.



No it isn't actually. Ki is life force so unless Garfield is dead or robotic he will have a life source which Goku would read as ki and be able to lock on to.


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## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

gunners said:


> No it isn't actually. Ki is life force so unless Garfield is dead or robotic he will have a life source which Goku would read as ki and be able to lock on to.



I don't understand why you're applying AT's principle to everything else. I can understand that maybe you're a firm believer of the concept of Ki. 

That doesn't mean that you can apply it to everything else because it hasn't been confirmed to be an actual spiritual/life force that everyone shares.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 6, 2006)

Space said:


> I don't understand why you're applying AT's principle to everything else. I can understand that maybe you're a firm believer of the concept of Ki.



just like u apply speed force principle on everyone else hypocrit


----------



## Gunners (Dec 6, 2006)

> I don't understand why you're applying AT's principle to everything else. I can understand that maybe you're a firm believer of the concept of Ki.
> 
> That doesn't mean that you can apply it to everything else because it hasn't been confirmed to be an actual spiritual/life force that everyone shares.



It was stated that Ki is people life force, when someone is dieing he can sense it.

Regardless of where he is, if someone is alive he will feel their presense of life, unless they are dead.


----------



## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

gunners said:


> It was stated that Ki is people life force, when someone is dieing he can sense it.
> 
> Regardless of where he is, if someone is alive he will feel their presense of life, unless they are dead.



You didn't answer my question.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 6, 2006)

> You didn't answer my question.


What was your question? and if people have a heart beat or they are a person they have ki,

I guess this is a vitalistic Idea still. Put it this way if someone is creeping up behind you you can feel them so people actually have a presence. Since Flash is alive he has a life force in him which Goku could log onto.


----------



## Orion (Dec 6, 2006)

except the problem is the if the flash has ki then it would be like the farmer with shotgun(5) and goku has lost track of much larger ki's simply by the enemy going fast which flash is many times faster then any enemy goku has faced,hes still getting his speed stolen and vibrated outta existance in the first .00000001 seconds of the fight.


----------



## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

gunners said:


> What was your question? and if people have a heart beat or they are a person they have ki,
> 
> I guess this is a vitalistic Idea still. Put it this way if someone is creeping up behind you you can feel them so people actually have a presence. Since Flash is alive he has a life force in him which Goku could log onto.



It's all in the DBU, not here.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Space said:


> Then are you saying Garfield has ki?
> 
> If everyone in real life has Ki, how come we aren't zooming through the air and throwing airplanes in the recycle bin?
> 
> ...



Every living being has SPIRIT......Flash slow ass is not just running up to Goku and vibrating his fingers, they will get BROKEN. Goku is more durable than a planet he can take planet destroying attacks without batting an eyelid.  Goku will sense his movements and Flash is like a candle light...one blow from Goku and he's out.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

Outside the token trolling of Phenom and Jplaya, I pose this question to the intelligent masses of DBZ fans once again:

If DBZ fights occur at highly relativistic speeds, how can time pass seconds, even minutes between, when in reality the fight would be over in a millionth of a second?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> Outside the token trolling of Phenom and Jplaya, I pose this question to the intelligent masses of DBZ fans once again:
> 
> If DBZ fights occur at highly relativistic speeds, how can time pass seconds, even minutes between, when in reality the fight would be over in a millionth of a second?



Your the only ignorant troll around here! Saying DBZ does NOT fight at lightspeed with no proof. Especially since NOBODY knows their speed, unless your high and mighty ass can prove to me the speed of Dragonball?


----------



## Piekage (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Every living being has SPIRIT......Flash slow ass is not just running up to Goku and vibrating his fingers, they will get BROKEN. Goku is more durable than a planet he can take planet destroying attacks without batting an eyelid.  Goku will sense his movements and Flash is like a candle light...one blow from Goku and he's out.



When has Goku ever taken a Planet Buster?


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

Can't prove a negative, thusly burden falls on you to prove that it does. Otherwise you can't prove that I'm not actually Goku in disguise, because you can't prove it without 100% certainty!

Anyways:

Time passes during their battles in seconds and minutes. Things fall, collapse, and move in real time. Thusly the battle is relative to normal measurements of time rather than time in respect to the speed of _c_.

Do _you_ have proof?



> When has Goku ever taken a Planet Buster?



Each of the times that he's died.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Piekage said:


> When has Goku ever taken a Planet Buster?



It was stated that Goku can survive a planet buster in the canon manga. Besides WEAKER opponents that he could kill with his toe shrugged off planet destroying attacks EASILY.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> Time passes during their battles in seconds and minutes. Things fall, collapse, and move in real time. Thusly the battle is relative to normal measurements of time rather than time in respect to the speed of _c_.
> 
> Do *you* have proof?



*Cough Cough*


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> Can't prove a negative, thusly burden falls on you to prove that it does. Otherwise you can't prove that I'm not actually Goku in disguise, because you can't prove it without 100% certainty! Anyways:Time passes during their battles in seconds and minutes. Things fall, collapse, and move in real time. Thusly the battle is relative to normal measurements of time rather than time in respect to the speed of _c_.
> 
> Do _you_ have proof?.



I NEVER said they can move or fight at lightspeed and I never said that they can't. You are the one always stating that they can't with NO proof and what you just stated is NOT proof at all. I wish I had the Dragonball in MOTION manga so I can see where all of the rocks and everything collapse in real time...wow you are such a genious...Try again...


----------



## Piekage (Dec 6, 2006)

> It was stated that Goku can survive a planet buster in the canon manga.
> .



When? 



> Besides WEAKER opponents that he could kill with his toe shrugged off planet destroying attacks EASILY.



The only character I recall surviving a Planet Buster is Cell. And he was pretty messed up afterward.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

But I do have proof. Time passes at a regular pace between fights. Since fights at the speed of light would be measured in milliseconds, no discernible time would pass to civilians. But it does. People talk during the fights, thusly they are fighting at well below sub-luminal speeds. Flash can move at super-luminal speeds. Thusly, he's far faster than them.

So you've lost. Congrats.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Piekage said:


> When? The only character I recall surviving a Planet Buster is Cell. And he was pretty messed up afterward.



Volume 27
伝説の超サイヤ人 
Densetsu no Suupaa Saiyajin 
The Legendary Super Saiyan

Chapter 320: 消え去るナメック星と希望 
Kiesaru Namekkusei to Kibou 
Vanishing Planet Nameck and Hope

Kaiou-sama:"Son Gokuu did well, and he certainly could've won one-on-one, but Freeza has destroyed Planet Nameck, and he'll survive its destruction."

Vegeta (saiya-jin saga), Freeza, Cell, and Majin Buu can all take on planet busters.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> But I do have proof. Time passes at a regular pace between fights. Since fights at the speed of light would be measured in milliseconds, no discernible time would pass to civilians. But it does. People talk during the fights, thusly they are fighting at well below sub-luminal speeds. Flash can move at super-luminal speeds. Thusly, he's far faster than them.
> 
> So you've lost. Congrats.



*Cough Cough*

Still no actually proof from your side to refute my own.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> But I do have proof. Time passes at a regular pace between fights. Since fights at the speed of light would be measured in milliseconds, no discernible time would pass to civilians. But it does. People talk during the fights, thusly they are fighting at well below sub-luminal speeds. Flash can move at super-luminal speeds. Thusly, he's far faster than them.
> 
> So you've lost. Congrats.



That's NOT proof at all mororn.... I would love to see where it is stated in the manga that "Time passes at a regular pace between fights." Oh yeah you got me their.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> That's NOT proof at all mororn.... I would love to see where it is stated in the manga that "Time passes at a regular pace between fights." Oh yeah you got me their.



Its proof that they aren't moving lightspeed. If they were than time wouldn't be passing at a normal rate.


----------



## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> *Every living being has SPIRIT*......Flash slow ass is not just running up to Goku and vibrating his fingers, they will get BROKEN. Goku is more durable than a planet he can take planet destroying attacks without batting an eyelid.  Goku will sense his movements and Flash is like a candle light...one blow from Goku and he's out.



Then teach me how to fly. You have no evidence that ki exists in real life, and it's not even documented as a confirmed spiritual force. DC revolves around real world physics, not spiritual forces in the DBU.

Goku is NOT more durable than a planet. He's never taken a planet buster straight to his body and survived. Show us evidence or you lose the debate. Goku has very minimal options in this fight, while Flash can do over 100 possible fun tricks.


----------



## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> That's NOT proof at all mororn.... I would love to see where it is stated in the manga that "Time passes at a regular pace between fights." Oh yeah you got me their.



Care to explain to me when goku It'D in front of cell , Cell was able to utter a word before he was blasted by Goku's kamehameha?

Too slow, not lightspeed.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

Even low relativistic speeds would be over in seconds. DBZ fights last minutes. Thusly, they are far below the Speed of Light.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

That is NOT proof at all..if "TIME passes slower in their fights" was NOT stated in the manga than it is pure SPECULATION. You can NOT prove if they move at lightspeed or not. Hell, what a bold assumption to make where the Dragonball world has a Dog as President.

I know why don't I post where the PUBLIC can see Superman and Flash racing, or how about humans being able to see most of the Zoom and Flash fight!!! I wish I had the Dragonball in MOTION manga so I can see the time passing slower or where all of the rocks and everything collapses in real time...wow you are such a genious...Try again...


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Empty threats, baseless claims, and still no proof



So you still can't explain it, eh?


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> So you still can't explain it, eh?



You can't prove anything... Give me the volume and chapter where it states all of your claims? When has Akira toriyama stated that time passes slower in the dragonball world?

"TIME passes slower in their fights" was NOT stated in the manga than it is pure SPECULATION on your part. I need to pick up the copy of Dragonball in MOTION manga so I can see the "time passing slower or where all of the rocks and everything collapses in real time..."


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

He states it by showing it. He shows people talking and making observations during a fight. If even a second passes, it's far below light speed. Minutes pass in DBZ fights due to the amount of dialogue they try cramming in.

That alone is enough. People talk. Thusly, it's far below luminal speed. You lose.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> You can't prove anything... Give me the volume and chapter where it states all of your claims? When has Akira toriyama stated that time passes slower in the dragonball world?
> 
> "TIME passes slower in their fights" was NOT stated in the manga than it is pure SPECULATION on your part. I need to pick up the copy of Dragonball in MOTION manga so I can see the "time passing slower or where all of the rocks and everything collapses in real time..."



Proof, Cell has time to speak while being hit by the supposed lightspeed attack..
More Proof? Televised fights minutes pass they watch as the fight takes place granted they don't see much more than blurs but more importantly they have time to have conversations during the fight that should be over halfway thru sentances. Not mountains of dialogue.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> He states it by showing it. He shows people talking and making observations during a fight. If even a second passes, it's far below light speed. Minutes pass in DBZ fights due to the amount of dialogue they try cramming in.
> 
> That alone is enough. People talk. Thusly, it's far below luminal speed. You lose.



Oh really! I guess that is why Trunks killing Freeza and his men "instantly" while TALKING is slow.  Oh need I mention that I can post people talking and making observations about the Flash vs. Zoom fight.....your claims are pathetic.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Proof, Cell has time to speak while being hit by the supposed lightspeed attack..More Proof? Televised fights minutes pass they watch as the fight takes place granted they don't see much more than blurs but more importantly they have time to have conversations during the fight that should be over halfway thru sentances. Not mountains of dialogue.



So and....people make comments when Flash runs and fights this can go both ways because it is comics real life physics really don't matter.

Prove to me that their words are NOT at super speed!! especially when you have Freeza and Goku's ENTIRE fight in five minutes at Superspeed!!! Or how about Trunks killing Freeza and his men instantly and their was talking.?


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## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Oh really! I guess that is why Trunks killing Freeza and his men and  "instantly" while TALKING is slow.  Oh need I mention that I can post people talking nd making observations about the Flash vs. Zoom fight.....your claims are pathetic.



How do you know he talked while killing them? 

And you *still* haven't answered my points Phenomenol.

If every being in real life and in all shows/comics that has life has ki, how come I can't fly? Tell me how to fly! Because obviously you're fanboyism > canon and physics.  

Flash vibrates straight through Goku in the first nanoseconds of this fight. I don't see hw you're not getting that. You haven't shown anything except you're mind as a tape recorder by saying comments in a nonending cycle.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

> Oh really! I guess that is why Trunks killing Freeza and his men and "instantly" while TALKING is slow.



You mean on your 'fan-trans' that you have yet to provide a raw for us to get translated? Bwuahahahaha...

Anyways, Chi Chi comments on the Gohan vs. Cell fight. The news crew watch the fight, even if they can't see _all_ of it. For them to be able to make comments, it's obvious that it's way below light speed. The time is measured conventionally because people watching these extended fights are able to make comments on them.



> Oh need I mention that I can post people talking nd making observations about the Flash vs. Zoom fight.....your claims are pathetic



Then do it or shut up. Stop acting like you're trying to scare me or something.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Space said:


> How do you know he talked while killing them?
> 
> And you *still* haven't answered my points Phenomenol.
> 
> ...



It Shows Trunks talking.....

Ki is SPIRIT if you are living Goku can SENSE your ass, you don't have to fly to have Ki ki is not power it is simply your SPIRIT.

Flash vibrates in nanoseconds? Bwhahwhhahahahaha just like he did when Gorilla Grodd slow ass bit into his arm. Flash has NEVER done that...


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

> Prove to me that their words are NOT at super speed!!



Because we have no reason to believe they ever were at super-speed. There's just nothing to suggest it.



> especially when you have Freeza and Goku's ENTIRE fight in five minutes at Superspeed!!!



Because in the manga, the fight is actually around that time. Since the manga = canon and the anime=/=canon, there's no reason to believe they ever spoke at Super Speed.



> Or how about Trunks killing Freeza and his men instantly and their was talking.?



Because "Instantly" is an expression and not an actual physical measurement of time. How long is 'an instant'? How far do you measure it down to? A micro-second? A nano-second?

Instantly means nothing. An actual semi-measureable of time (Like regular people talking, ala Chi Chi and the News Crew during the Cell Games) shows that time passes at a regular rate.

You lose. Again. And again. And again.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

By the by, I see ram619 is reading this, so I'm going to be real quick and take care of you now:

Actions, for the most part, are able to be defined in some part by physics. Physics gives us definite concepts to base our opinions on.

Physics are louder than your interpretations. Everything you said in your previous posts could be done easily at well below luminal speeds. Nothing you've shown requires even the hint of light speed.

Not only this, but your knowledge of the Flash seems to be purely gleemed from speed-reading the wikipedia articles rather than actually knowing the source material (Who else could say that Wally West wasn't the Flash during the Morrison run? He's the only Flash they've had for _20 years_...). You caught an episode of JLU. Congrats. But you don't know anything about the Flash. Please don't try and form up an argument that we've already thoroughly deconstructed.

You know what? Just don't post and save us all a bunch of time. We'll all be happier for it in the end.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 6, 2006)

I would say interesting points are being made but they haven't made any and they keep repeating factless information as if it has to be fact.

EDIT: And nothing we say is an interesting point because its common sense..


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## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> It Shows Trunks talking.....
> 
> Ki is SPIRIT if you are living Goku can SENSE your ass, you don't have to fly to have Ki ki is not power it is simply your SPIRIT.
> 
> Flash vibrates in nanoseconds? Bwhahwhhahahahaha just like he did when Gorilla Grodd slow ass bit into his arm. Flash has NEVER done that...



But If Videl can utilize her ki to fly, I should be able to do the same right??? 

And I remember that... Flash's attention was towards Nightwing because he was worried for him and he was hit by telepathy. You're trying to show negative things about Flash when you know there's more to it than your biased logic.

You should just stop reading comics, period. You apparently just look at Flash or Superman losing a battle and you totally ignore *how* it even happens. Get a full analysis instead bits of speculation.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

There really isn't anything interesting about having to hammer out trolls who add nothing to any discussion other than moronic quips, nonsensical claims, and constant avoiding of the actual issue at hand, which means that you yourself have to keep pounding the same point home as much as possible to scare them off.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> Because we have no reason to believe they ever were at super-speed. There's just nothing to suggest it.Because in the manga, the fight is actually around that time. Since the manga = canon and the anime=/=canon, there's no reason to believe they ever spoke at Super Speed.Because "Instantly" is an expression and not an actual physical measurement of time. How long is 'an instant'? How far do you measure it down to? A micro-second? A nano-second?nstantly means nothing. An actual semi-measureable of time (Like regular people talking, ala Chi Chi and the News Crew during the Cell Games) shows that time passes at a regular rate.
> 
> You lose. Again. And again. And again.



You haven't proved anything.....

Freeza and Goku were talking and even standing STILL at Supers speed! they did an hours worth of fighting in minutes that is Super speed. Trunks killed Freeza and his men instantly this is stated like four times in the manga! Even in the anime Piccolo states that Freeza and his men were killed in a "split second." That is canon and fact.

As for your whack ass Cell game argument which is PIS because I can post Krillin and Master Roshi fight in DRAGONBALL that was under a second. and they explained to the judge that they played Three games of Rock paper scissors and even sparred after that game! Unless your telling me Kurrin back in dragfonball is faster than Cell and Goku in DBZ your full of it.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 6, 2006)

Space said:


> But If Videl can utilize her ki to fly, I should be able to do the same right???



As well as Flash, Gambit, Batman, Elektra, Daredevil, hell Archangel wouldn't need his wings.. 

Some beings also have  I don't see them utilising or teaching anyone how to use their "Ki"


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Space said:


> But If Videl can utilize her ki to fly, I should be able to do the same right???
> 
> And I remember that... Flash's attention was towards Nightwing because he was worried for him and he was hit by telepathy. You're trying to show negative things about Flash when you know there's more to it than your biased logic.
> 
> You should just stop reading comics, period. You apparently just look at Flash or Superman losing a battle and you totally ignore *how* it even happens. Get a full analysis instead bits of speculation.



Nope, you aare an average human...Videl was NOT a normal human her father already had a higher power than most average humans. Videl was TRAINED to fly and Gohan taught her how to use her "SPIRIT" to fly.

Who cares if Flash was hit with telepathy you claim that he is faster than thought..didn't see it in that fight.


----------



## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> You haven't proved anything.....
> 
> Freeza and Goku were talking *1.and even standing STILL at Supers speed*! they did an hours worth of fighting in minutes that is Super speed. *2. Trunks killed Freeza and his men instantly this is stated like four times in the manga*!*3. Even in the anime Piccolo states that Freeza and his men were killed in a "split second." That is canon and fact.*


1.Care to explain how the hell that makes sense?
2. Trunks did not kill Freeza and his men instantly. You're delusional. He did not talk as he was killing them. He killed his men in probably a second or less(there's no time given), and it took him a few seconds to kill Freeza.
3. Yeah because whatever Piccolo says is canon.
"Split second" can be 100% hypothetical. " I made  a split second decision" or "I dodged the ball at the last split second". It wasn't confirmed whether it was an actual split second or not. Stop trying to override AT's canon again.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> As for your whack ass Cell game argument which is PIS because I can post Krillin and Master Roshi fight in DRAGONBALL that was under a second.


No, it stated that it was a second. Flash can do that and more in a second's time. You have no idea.


----------



## ram619 (Dec 6, 2006)

here's the proof that dbz characters are faster than light:
you dont need numbers here coz "action speaks louder than words"

1.ssj gotenks move around the planet few dozen times which leaves a trail of light around the planet that did vanish even while he is still cirlcling around the planet.he even take a nap after that,an average nap is about 30 mins.

fact:"no speed of sound can do what gotenks did"

everyone prove to me that speed of sound can do what gotenks did and i will believe that dbz are not at lightspeed.

about goku taking planet buster its true:

1.muten-roshi with a power level power level of 139 destroyed a moon.

2.ginew with power level of 120000,blasts goku and it was nothing.

dont tell me that muten roshi's blast was more powerful than ginew's blast.

reason why planet didnt explode is through ki manipulation/control.

moon is about 1/3 of the earth,divide ginew's power level to muten roshi's power level and that's exactly how powerful ginew is.


fact:
1.freeza can destroy any planet.

2.cell can wipe out an entire solar system.

3.majin boo can destroy galaxies,dimensions and space time continuum.

4.ssj4 goku can break the black star dragon's wish by turning back to his adult form.

i dont see anyone from dc/marvel that fights will surpass that (except the presence/the one above all)


----------



## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Videl was NOT a normal human her father already had a higher power than most average humans. Videl was TRAINED to fly and Gohan taught her how to use her "SPIRIT" to fly.


WTF? Videl wasn't a normal human? Then wtf was she? Wolverine? Videl was pure 100% human. All people in the DBU have ki, but don't know how to use it.

Gohan taught Videl how to fly by utilizing her ki and lifting herself off the ground. It's caled Bukujutsu I believe. Hercule was the strongest human Non Z fighter on the planet. Videl surpassed him later on.

When you're burdened by a heavy load of proof, you become super delusional and create your own Dragonball manga. All you're doing now is trolling, Phenomenol. You fail.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Who cares if Flash was hit with telepathy you claim that he is faster than thought..didn't see it in that fight.


1. You KNOW that Flash is faster than thought. Stop denying it. There's tons of proof, actually READ THEM.
2. Flash wasn't even paying attention to Grodd and was worried about Nightwing's safety. And a telepathic hit that can go lightspeed that Flash can't even sense is not something you should put down on Flash.


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## ram619 (Dec 6, 2006)

about mr.popo mention that goku must move quicker than lightning if that was not true then why toei make a anime filler of goku dodging a lightning.toei was not dumb you know,anyone dont compare yourself to toei.

i know flash was travels faster than lightspeed but he cannot fight faster than lightspeed (at short distance) its either of these three:

1.break the time barrier and travel through time

2.break the dimension barrier and travel through dimensions

3.break the speed force barrier,phase out of reality and become one with the force.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

> Freeza and Goku were talking and even standing STILL at Supers speed! they did an hours worth of fighting in minutes that is Super speed.



Of course, you have proof of this?

Nope? Didn't think so. They fought for 5 minutes. It didn't feel like an hour. It felt like 5 minutes. Give me proof that it was an 'hour' in the manga (And provide a raw as well), and I'll believe you.



> Trunks killed Freeza and his men instantly this is stated like four times in the manga!



How long is an 'instant'. It can be anything from a second to a pico-second. "Instantly" tells us nothing than it was 'fast'. It doesn't have an upper or lower limit. A person's talking does have an upper limit to be understood. That's why we can judge speed from it.



> Even in the anime Piccolo states that Freeza and his men were killed in a "split second." That is canon and fact.



So .5 seconds, right? Oh wait, that doesn't have a defined time, either. So you still don't have any proof.



> As for your whack ass Cell game argument which is PIS



It happens during the Kid Buu fight, too. If it were going at low, medium, or high relativistic speeds, the people of Earth wouldn't even have time to think to give their ki to Goku because Buu would have killed them all. It's not the exception, it's the rule.



> I can post Krillin and Master Roshi fight in DRAGONBALL that was under a second. and they explained to the judge that they played Three games of Rock paper scissors and even sparred after that game!



OMG THREE ROUNDS OF ROCK PAPER SCISSORS!(*#)$@(*$)(#@

Post it with the raw, and then we'll judge it. Otherwise, shut up.



> Unless your telling me Kurrin back in dragfonball is faster than Cell and Goku in DBZ your full of it.



Well, post the manga and a raw. We'll judge from there. If not, then just shut up.


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## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

ram619 said:


> about mr.popo mention that goku must move quicker than lightning if that was not true then why toei make a anime filler of goku dodging a lightning.toei was not dumb you know,anyone dont compare yourself to toei.



The fact that Goku is faster than lightning may be true, however...
1. Popo could have been metaphorically speaking and moving at a high speed. It wasn't confirmed.
2. Toei has made errors in translation like making Raditz say that he was quicker than lightspeed.
3. You should know that lightning =/= lightspeed. It's about 1/3 lightspeed.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

ram619 said:


> about mr.popo mention that goku must move quicker than lightning if that was not true then why toei make a anime filler of goku dodging a lightning.



Because they needed to fill up a 30 minute space, while Kishimoto only needed to fill a set number of pages?



> toei was not dumb you know,anyone dont compare yourself to toei.



Toei

1) Made it so Goku had trouble lifting a bus.
2) Made him get hit with a rock and get hurt by it.
3) Have shown his powers so inconsistantly that GT was an utter wreck.

Toei are looking to fill space and money. Nothing they do constitutes in any way canon DBZ, just as JLU doesn't constitute canon facts about the Flash. You should have just listened to my post and not posted. Now you've wasted _everyone's_ time.


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## ram619 (Dec 6, 2006)

nope its not toei makes the dubbed radits say that he at lightspeed its funimation not the toei.

i know flash was travels faster than lightspeed but he cannot fight faster than lightspeed (at short distance) its either of these three:

1.break the time barrier and travel through time

2.break the dimension barrier and travel through dimensions

3.break the speed force barrier,phase out of reality and become one with the force.

the time when goku hit by a rock and get hurt when he was at a nap.dont you know that when dbz characters are outcold or at sleep they are vulnerable coz their ki was down.


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## Kai (Dec 6, 2006)

ram619 said:


> nope its not toei makes the dubbed radits say that he at lightspeed its funimation not the toei.
> 
> i know flash was travels faster than lightspeed but he cannot fight faster than lightspeed (at short distance) its either of these three:
> 
> ...


You forgot:
1. Vibrating his molecules so rapidly that he becomes invisible
2. Speed stealing making the enemy totally motionless
3. Doing an *infinite mass punch* with the same heat as a white dwarf star which is 350,000 degrees Farenheit.
4. Vibrating Goku's molecules so rapidly that he explodes
5. Making speed barrier that can repel GOKU's physical attacks[I won't argue against you for this one, just stating it]
6. Putting goku and trapping him in the speedforce forever.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Space said:


> 1.Care to explain how the hell that makes sense?
> 2. Trunks did not kill Freeza and his men instantly. You're delusional. He did not talk as he was killing them. He killed his men in probably a second or less(there's no time given), and it took him a few seconds to kill Freeza.
> 3. Yeah because whatever Piccolo says is canon.
> "Split second" can be 100% hypothetical. " I made  a split second decision" or "I dodged the ball at the last split second". It wasn't confirmed whether it was an actual split second or not. Stop trying to override AT's canon again.
> ...



WTF?...are you chatting Freeza and Goku fought a Super speed battle in five minutes they even stood still and had conversations in between the fight.

Trunks killed Freeza and his men instantly it is stated like five times. And whatever the Author has the characters say it means CANON! The author lets the reader know that he killed Freeza in a "SPLIT SECOND." The Author just DEFINED the characters fighting speed for you, but your to damn silly to understand that.

Toon Zone Schedule Toon Zone Schedule Toon Zone Schedule Toon Zone Schedule Toon Zone Schedule Toon Zone Schedule


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

ram619 said:


> nope its not toei makes the dubbed radits say that he at lightspeed its funimation not the toei.



Toei is still full of morons. Their opinion of Goku isn't at all canon and isn't indicative of his actual powers.



> i know flash was travels faster than lightspeed but he cannot fight faster than lightspeed (at short distance) its either of these three:



What is with the "(At short distance)"? If he hits lightspeed, no matter what, the same thing would happen no matter the distance.



> 1.break the time barrier and travel through time



Not true. He can mentally control that.



> 2.break the dimension barrier and travel through dimensions



He does that through vibrations, you tard. He can phase in and out of dimensions without even moving.



> 3.break the speed force barrier,phase out of reality and become one with the force.



He's broken the Light barrier dozens of times without getting absorbed. Just look at Zoom vs. Flash, him evac-ing a city from a nuclear explosion in seconds, and him testing the speed of Blue Superman.

Please, go away and play with some blocks or something.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Space said:


> You forgot:
> 1. Vibrating his molecules so rapidly that he becomes invisible
> 2. Speed stealing making the enemy totally motionless
> 3. Doing an *infinite mass punch* with the same heat as a white dwarf star which is 350,000 degrees Farenheit.
> ...



Wow!!! do you want a damn cookie for these so called feats. None of these are impressive to Goku. Goku as a CHILD in dragonball can become invisible....big whoop.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

Define an 'instant' and a 'split-second' in actual measurements. If you can't, then the sheer amount of difference between the upper limit and the lower limit makes such comments meaningless.

Come on, DBZ people: Explain why these fights aren't over in less than a millionth of a second if they are fighting at the Speed of Light.


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## Nexas (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Wow!!! do you want a damn cookie for these so called feats. None of these are impressive to Goku. Goku as a CHILD in dragonball can become invisible....big whoop.



Wait so stealing Goku's speed, or an infinite mass punch won't affect Goku? Since when did Goku become some sort of cosmic being?


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## ram619 (Dec 6, 2006)

here's the proof that dbz characters are faster than light:
you dont need numbers here coz "action speaks louder than words"

canon:ssj gotenks move around the planet few dozen times which leaves a trail of light around the planet that did vanish even while he is still moving around the planet.he even take a nap after that,an average nap is about 30 mins.

fact:"no speed of sound can do what gotenks did"

everyone prove to me that speed of sound can do what gotenks did and i will believe that dbz are not at lightspeed.

i know you have doubts,here's the reason:

1.flight travelling speed =/= fighting speed

2.there's no speed feats at that time


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> Define an 'instant' and a 'split-second' in actual measurements. If you can't, then the sheer amount of difference between the upper limit and the lower limit makes such comments meaningless.
> 
> Come on, DBZ people: Explain why these fights aren't over in less than a millionth of a second if they are fighting at the Speed of Light.



Trunks killed Freeza and his men instantaneously which is done without DELAY, A split second is the SHORTEST POSSIBLE TIME!!!!! That is Super speed at it's best.


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## ram619 (Dec 6, 2006)

is this cosmic enough for you:

ssj4 goku can break the black star dragon's wish by turning back to his adult form.

black star dragon ball scatters all over the universe after you make a wish.

infinite punch will affect him but flash cant fight at light speed 
(only travels).and infinite punch was only near at lightspeed (99%) not lightspeed.

most evidence of dbz at lightspeed was at action.

"action speaks louder than words"

here's the proof that dbz characters are faster than light:
you dont need numbers here coz "action speaks louder than words"

canon:ssj gotenks move around the planet few dozen times which leaves a trail of light around the planet that did vanish even while he is still moving around the planet.he even take a nap after that,an average nap is about 30 mins.

fact:"no speed of sound can do what gotenks did"

everyone prove to me that speed of sound can do what gotenks did and i will believe that dbz are not at lightspeed.

i know you have doubts,here's the reason:

1.flight travelling speed =/= fighting speed

2.there's no speed feats at that time


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

> here's the proof that dbz characters are faster than light:
> you dont need numbers here coz "action speaks louder than words"



Physics speaks louder than Tards.



> canon:ssj gotenks move around the planet few dozen times which leaves a trail of light around the planet that did vanish even while he is still moving around the planet.he even take a nap after that,an average nap is about 30 mins.



*Canon*: The exact amount that Gotenks went around was never actually stated, nor was the length of his nap or anything like that. Leaving a trail of light doesn't indicate speed as much as it may indicate time-lapse actions.

Thusly, you lose again.



> everyone prove to me that speed of sound can do what gotenks did and i will believe that dbz are not at lightspeed.



Okay. Whenever someone fights, there is no sonic booms and time passes in a regular fashion. Thusly, they are fighting just below the speed of sound since they are fighting in regular time.



> 1.flight travelling speed =/= fighting speed



Indeed. Travelling speed is higher: We do hear sonic booms when they power past, plus it's easier to run in a straight line than just jump all over the place. Plus, moving erratically at top speed sacrifices precision. One would want to move slower and more erratically rather than faster and in a linear path because linear pathes are easier to track.

Plus, Goku couldn't even save his family when Buu destroyed the planet. He was obviously close enough to use fighting speed, and if he had, he would have saved them all no problem. Instead, he only had time to save Mr. Satan.

So Flight Speed > Fighting Speed.



> 2.there's no speed feats at that time



People talk during fights. That alone confirms a speed far less than light.


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## ram619 (Dec 6, 2006)

here's the proof that dbz characters are faster than light:
you dont need numbers here coz "action speaks louder than words"

canon:ssj gotenks move around the planet few dozen times which leaves a trail of light around the planet that did vanish even while he is still moving around the planet.he even take a nap after that,an average nap is about 30 mins.

fact:"no speed of sound can do what gotenks did"

everyone prove to me that speed of sound can do what gotenks did and i will believe that dbz are not at lightspeed.

i know you have doubts,here's the reason:

1.flight travelling speed =/= fighting speed

2.there's no speed feats at that time


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 6, 2006)

Wow, quadruple post without even any new information. Can we get a ban on this tard?

And GT =/= Canon, you moron.


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## Nexas (Dec 6, 2006)

ram619 said:


> is this cosmic enough for you:
> 
> ssj4 goku can break the black star dragon's wish by turning back to his adult form.
> 
> black star dragon ball scatters all over the universe after you make a wish.



Actually I was hoping for something canon.



> Trunks killed Freeza and his men instantaneously which is done without DELAY, A split second is the SHORTEST POSSIBLE TIME!!!!! That is Super speed at it's best.



A split second isn't even a unit of measure. It just means something happened really really fast. Something like that can range from .0000000000000000001s to 1s. 

And don't tell thats super speed at its best. Kingdom Come Flash-Now thats super speed.


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## ram619 (Dec 6, 2006)

hahaha ,ehem we can see images because of light,basically how can leave an images if you are slower than light.that is basic physics.your are tards (retarded) here coz shown it shown and yet you didnt believe it,your like a kid that always need a words to believe it.im sure your not even at college now.


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## Crimson King (Dec 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> I'm spewing out bullshit like jplaya!


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## ram619 (Dec 6, 2006)

hahaha ,ehem we can see images because of light,basically how can leave an images if you are slower than light.that is basic physics.

answer that first and if you answer that correctly,i will believe that dbz is not at lightspeed


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Nexas said:


> A split second isn't even a unit of measure. It just means something happened really really fast. Something like that can range from .0000000000000000001s to 1s.
> 
> And don't tell thats super speed at its best. Kingdom Come Flash-Now thats super speed.



A split second is better than anything Flash has done in a FIGHT!!!!!! without absorbing speed he can NOT achieve such speed reflexes.

Goku wins....


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## ram619 (Dec 6, 2006)

split second was speed of light,if you subject circuit you will know that kids.


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## Nexas (Dec 6, 2006)

ram619 said:


> hahaha ,ehem we can see images because of light,basically how can leave an images if you are slower than light.that is basic physics.your are tards (retarded) here coz shown it shown and yet you didnt believe it,your like a kid that always need a words to believe it.im sure your not even at college now.



Wow....just......wow. Your calling us kids? I can hardly read your rape of the english language.


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## ram619 (Dec 6, 2006)

phenomenol we are debating with kids here hahaha,im an ee student and i know basically what split second is.

to move at split second is to move at lightspeed.

take an ee course someday to find out if im lying here


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Well Okay ram619, I do like your avatar!!!! but please don't double post thankyou.


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## Nexas (Dec 6, 2006)

ram619 said:
			
		

> to move at split second is to move at lightspeed.



A split second is nothing more than a *FRACTION* of a second. It can range from to something like .99999999s to .000000000000000001s and beyond.


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## ram619 (Dec 6, 2006)

i know flash was travels faster than lightspeed but he cannot fight faster than lightspeed (at short distance) its either of these three:

1.break the time barrier and travel through time

2.break the dimension barrier and travel through dimensions

3.break the speed force barrier,phase out of reality and become one with the force.



quicker than lightning was true coz if not reading ki was not.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 6, 2006)

Nexas said:


> A split second is nothing more than a *FRACTION* of a second. It can range from to something like .99999999s to .000000000000000001s and beyond.



A split second is defined as THE SHORTEST POSSIBLE TIME!!!!!


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## ram619 (Dec 6, 2006)

A split second is nothing more than a FRACTION of a second. It can range from to something like .99999999s to .000000000000000001s and beyond.

that is true but to move at a split second,to us EE it measures as lightspeed.

and physics was a part of our major subject so i have no doubt about dbz at lightspeed.

light moves at the shortest possible time.........


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## Gooba (Dec 6, 2006)

This thread shows all that is wrong with the OB.  I am going to start needing to hand out short bans for flamish stuff if it doesn't get better soon.


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