# Akainu VS WB Pirates (Multiple Scenarios)



## Mihawk (Feb 25, 2013)

Time to settile this argument once and for all, and also setting to argue if Akainu could have kept up his performance against the crew at the later stage of MF.

I just want this to be discussed with what people think, and one of the purposes in this thread is to see how much of a difference one top commander can make.

Location: Marineford

Restrictions: None. 

Additional Term: Whitebeard himself does *NOT* enter the fight and the combatants on Team 2 are the WB Pirates.

Scenario 1: Akainu VS Marco & Vista 

Scenario 2: Akainu VS Marco, Jozu, Vista

Scenario 3: Akainu VS Marco, Vista, Crocodile, Lower Commanders(divisions 6-16)

Scenario 4: Akainu VS Marco, Vista, Jozu, Croc, Lower Commanders

Scenario 5: Akainu VS Marco,  Vista, Jozu, Thatch, Croc, Teach, Ace, Lower Commanders

Scenario 6: Akainu VS Jozu, Vista, Teach, Ace (No Thatch, he's featless anyways)

Scenario 7: Akainu VS Jozu, Vista, Teach, Ace, Lower Commanders (No Thatch) 

Additional Note: I advise people to not look at numbers, as any Admiral including Akainu has the potential to one shot any of the lower Commanders individually, and several of them at the same time as well, since they are around VA level. Remember that *individually*, the lower Commanders, Croc, Ace, & Teach are all non factors in their own scenarios. The true factors whom make any difference at all here are Marco, Vista, Jozu. 


My opinion is:

Scenario 1: I think Akainu clears this high diff and Vista would not be able to be that big of an advantage for being on Marco's side, since Akainu is a terrible match up for Vista. My belief is that Akainu can mid-high diff Marco in a one on one fight, and adding Vista on his side doesn't somehow automatically change things so drastically. Also, might I remind everyone that they failed to amount to anything more than causing Akainu an annoyance, *despite catching him off guard *. Still, they would give him some trouble for sure.

Scenario 2: Could go either way, but I think Akainu clears extreme diff. Like I said above, I believe  Akainu can mid-high diff Marco in a one on one fight, and against Admirals, numbers don't always necessarily equate to increased chance of victory, so please remember that. Jozu does make some difference here and his presence should *not* be seen as a negligible factor. However, Akainu would most certainly one shot Jozu in the same way Aokiji did if he was in the same position of catching him off guard.

Scenario 3: Akainu clears extreme diff. Jozu is not here and that makes some difference. A lot of people use the logic that if Akainu can mid-high diff Marco, then adding sheer numbers would tip the balance, but even if you add a bunch of VA level opponents(the lower Commanders) against an Admiral, it makes little difference when they can be one shotted and taken out in quick succession, and VA level fighters are very much fodder against Admirals, so don't automatically assume numbers tip the advantage. Individually, Croc & the Lower Commanders might as well not be factors. Marco & Vista are the only real threats here, but I think Akainu would take them both down at high diff. He would beat Marco and is a terrible match up for someone like Vista. 

Scenario 4: WB Pirates take this high-extreme diff. Adding Jozu *AND* the lower Commanders is simply too much, and it does make a difference. Akainu gets overwhelmed.

Scenario 5: WB Pirates take this mid-high diff I'd say. Thatch is featless, but I think we can assume he was a top commander, as he was in the division above Vista and he was around since the old days of the crew unlike Ace. Nonetheless, I hold to the notion that Ace & Teach won't be factors and they would both get one shotted. Still, the sheer numbers here once again, and the fact that Ace & Teach, despite being fodder in this situation IMO, can still open an opportunity for the others. Adding the lower Commanders  whom are weaker than Ace & Teach, whom would also get fodderized, there would be enough stalling for Jozu, Marco, Vista, and Thatch to handily defeat Akainu.

Scenario 6: I'd say Akainu takes this mid-high diff. Teach & Ace are not really factors here, and Marco's absense does make a big difference. Even with veterans with great feats like Jozu & Vista, I believe Akainu would eventually overwhelm them and since Vista can't really hurt him too much and is badly matched here, Akainu would take him out pretty soon. I grade Jozu as being along the same wavelengths of Marco but I say if Akainu fodderizes the weaker ones (Teach, Ace), and takes out Vista, then once he fixes his attention on Jozu, he would win.

Scenario 7: Once again, Marco's absense causes a significant loss, numbers don't amount to much against Admirals with AoE moves that can one shot several VA level opponents at will if they wanted to, and I do believe that this battle could go either way, extreme diff.


So discuss these scenarios and give out your thoughts. 

(Reminding oneself that Teach, Ace, and any of the lower commanders(whom are weaker than Ace & Teach) are non factors against an Akainu individually makes all the difference with the mentality and outlook with which you look at these scenarios.)

Also, I want to add that while they can't do much of anything against an Admiral, the Lower Commanders are impressive and strong VA level fighters in their own right.

Also Croc is a non factor


----------



## Shinthia (Feb 25, 2013)

lol. i did not read all those but here is my post as u asked.

S1: could go either way xtrm diff.
S2: Akaino loses .
S3: Akaino loses after killing a lot of commanders.
S4 : Akaino loses for sure.
S5: Akaino loses for sure.

S6: Akaino wins. no Marco
S7: Akaino wins. no Marco


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 25, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> lol. i did not read all those but here is my post as u asked.
> 
> S1: could go either way xtrm diff.
> S2: Akaino loses .
> ...



Cool, while I disagree with a few of them, I respect your opinion and your right to express it.


----------



## Skream (Feb 25, 2013)

1 - Akainu solos-
When you powerscale many of vista/marco's feats, together they should be stronger than Akainu. But we saw that they couldn't even harm Akainu.
Akainu borderline High diff

2 - Honestly I don't know if Akainu could one shot Jozu. His haki isn't godly, he was toyed around with by doflamingo. I think Jozu is overrated as hell and could get 2 shotted. Akainu *max* difficulty *OR* team whitebeard wins with only one man standing.

3- Akainu high high diff 
Crocodile? Time to rant on about that ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) 
Crocodile goes nearly unconscious from an alabasta base luffy's pistol. Crocodile gets a drop of magma on him then jumps in to sea and dies by drowning instead of getting melted. His durability is horrid. Akainu might think his magma would be wasted so he uses a reality marble to take them to middle earth and throws crocodile in mount doom. The other WB commanders can't hit through Akainu's haki and therefore are a complete non factor. Even if they could they'll get one shotted by an attack that wasn't directed towards them.


4- Team WB wins with vista dead and marco unconscious

5- WB pirates - Akainu gets a decakill in this clusterfuck then dies

6- WB pirates (Ace dies for sure)

7 -WB pirates (Ace dies first because akainu just wants to kill him)


----------



## Gibbs (Feb 25, 2013)

What does Teach have here? Yami alone? or does he have the Gura too?


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 25, 2013)

The Phoenix King said:


> What does Teach have here? Yami alone? or does he have the Gura too?



Teach is Yami Teach, which was why I said he would get fodderized or one shotted by any Admiral.


----------



## RF (Feb 25, 2013)

1. Akainu
2. Can go either way extreme difficulty
3. Basically same as scenario 1
4. Same as scenario 2
5. Commanders with high difficulty. Akainu ain't pushing this army to the extremes
6. Akainu
7. Akainu


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 25, 2013)

-Sakazuki- said:


> 1. Akainu
> 2. Can go either way extreme difficulty
> 3. Basically same as scenario 1
> 4. Same as scenario 2
> ...



Ye I agree with this, our opinions are pretty much the same in this situation.


----------



## LB04 (Feb 25, 2013)

Scenario 1: 
Akainu wins with high diff. While Marco and Vista failed to inflick damage on Akainu; Marco can stall him for a long time and Vista can use long range attacks to cut off Akainu's legs, arms etc and generally be annoying. Vista might not cause damage but he can interrupt Akainu's attacks and thus aid Marco. 
Akainu will need to keep his Haki shield or whatever he uses to prevent Haki users from hurting him up all the time and he will likely need to take Marco down first. Marco can block Akainu all the time until his regen runs out and Vista himself should be rather fast, making it hard to put him down if he spams long range attacks. Once Marco is down it's however quickly over.

Scenario 2: 
Akainu loses. Marco and Jozu vs Akainu would be a bit like Zoro vs those cat brothers in the Kuro arc in my opinion.
Individually Zoro beats either of them with one sword, against both of them he was on the defense and if Nami was right would have been overwhelmed. Now Zoro was not much skilled in fightning with just one sword at that point, which makes some difference to this scenario. 
Akainu is perhaps not used to be on the defense but an experienced fighter like him should quickly adapt. He would not be out of his normal fightning style, just be on the defense. He would still be capable to counterattack if given the chance and would outlast them thanks to his superior stamina in my opinion. But that victory would be won with nearly the same diff as against Aokiji.
Vista can spam long range attacks on Akainu. Those themself would not cause Akainu damage, but a cut off arm when needed to block an attack by Marco and Jozu or a cut off leg when needing to fall back a bit etc would all help Marco and Jozu in landing hits on Akainu. Therefore they win this with the absolut max diff in my opinion.

Scenario 3
Akainu extrem diff.
The lower commanders and Croc can do the same as Vista and Croc can probably use his sand to slow incoming attacks a bit, but that is it. Here they lack the firepower to keep Akainu stucked on the defense for the most part of the fight. Akainu will need to invest more energy than in scenario 1 though, therefore extrem diff.

Scenario 4
WB pirates with extrem diff. Marco and Jozu get more openings to use in this scenario than in 2. 

Scenario 5
WB pirates with high diff. 

Scenario 6
Akainu high-extrem diff. Ace and Vista can support Jozu with long range attacks, but that's it. Teach can't really do anything here. Go into cqc with Akainu? Teach loses his head. Blackhole won't help either since it will work against Jozu too. If Teach could somehow surprise Akainu and disable his DF then they have a good chance, but I don't see that happening. I can however see Teach losing his head in a reckless/desperate move.
And if Vista, Teach and Ace don't watchout Akainu gets past Jozu and attacks them. Jozu is fast, yes, but I think Marco is faster and has more maneuverability, making it harder to get past him than Jozu. 

Scenario 7
Akainu with extrem diff. The lower commanders make this a solid extrem diff win for Akainu.


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 25, 2013)

LB04 said:


> Scenario 1:
> Akainu wins with high diff. While Marco and Vista failed to inflick damage on Akainu; Marco can stall him for a long time and Vista can use long range attacks to cut off Akainu's legs, arms etc and generally be annoying. Vista might not cause damage but he can interrupt Akainu's attacks and thus aid Marco.
> Akainu will need to keep his Haki shield or whatever he uses to prevent Haki users from hurting him up all the time and he will likely need to take Marco down first. Marco can block Akainu all the time until his regen runs out and Vista himself should be rather fast, making it hard to put him down if he spams long range attacks. Once Marco is down it's however quickly over.
> 
> ...



A great post as usual sir


----------



## Shinthia (Feb 25, 2013)

LB04 said:


> Scenario 1:
> Akainu wins with high diff. While Marco and Vista failed to inflick damage on Akainu; Marco can stall him for a long time and Vista can use long range attacks to cut off Akainu's legs, arms etc and generally be annoying. Vista might not cause damage but he can interrupt Akainu's attacks and thus aid Marco.
> Akainu will need to keep his Haki shield or whatever he uses to prevent Haki users from hurting him up all the time and he will likely need to take Marco down first. Marco can block Akainu all the time until his regen runs out and Vista himself should be rather fast, making it hard to put him down if he spams long range attacks. Once Marco is down it's however quickly over.
> 
> ...



i can somewhat agree with this


----------



## Marcο (Feb 25, 2013)

> Scenario 1: Akainu VS Marco & Vista


Either way extreme difficulty. 


> Scenario 2: Akainu VS Marco, Jozu, Vista


The WB pirates take this.


> Scenario 3: Akainu VS Marco, Vista, Crocodile, Lower Commanders(divisions 6-16)


Either way extreme difficulty. This isn't very different from scenario one, Croc & and the rest of the commanders are no match for an Admiral. Though, I guess they could serve as distractions, so team WB has a greater probability of taking this than scenario 1.


> Scenario 4: Akainu VS Marco, Vista, Jozu, Croc, Lower Commanders


WB Pirates.


> Scenario 5: Akainu VS Marco, Vista, Jozu, Thatch, Croc, Teach, Ace, Lower Commanders


WB pirates .


> Scenario 6: Akainu VS Jozu, Vista, Teach, Ace (No Thatch, he's featless anyways)


Akainu high difficulty.


> Scenario 7: Akainu VS Jozu, Vista, Teach, Ace, Lower Commanders (No Thatch)


Akainu extreme difficulty.


----------



## Lmao (Feb 25, 2013)

>Jozu alone can take on Aokiji
>Marco and Vista *combined *merely annoy Akainu with their attacks
>Akainu need 10 days to narrowly beat Kuzan

This has always bothered me, now unless Jozu is that much more superior to other commanders he is _not _really a match for Aokiji and the only way to justify what happened at MF is most likely: The Admirals were massively restricted (pirates too but still), given Aokiji's lazy personality he didn't fight Jozu as seriously as Akainu would fight his opponents.


----------



## RF (Feb 25, 2013)

Lmao said:


> he didn't fight Jozu as seriously as Akainu would fight his opponents.



pretty much this

also Jozu gave Aokiji only a bloody lip with a direct hit,while Aokiji was off-guard...

that really isn't so impressive when you think about it


----------



## Coruscation (Feb 25, 2013)

Akainu beating Marco, Jozu and Vista at once is really, really ridiculous. Get a grip people. Numbers of weaker people not mattering as much against a top class Logia is all well and good but these are not weak people. They are the three strongest individuals in the strongest pirate crew in the world captain aside. Ponder that for just a second. Whitebeard's crew would be an embarassment if his three strongest individuals, which are way above any others, at the same time would lose to a single one of the Marine top fighters. Nothing justifies a stance like that. Akainu actually taking down Marco and Vista at once is already pushing it. You can't disregard Marco's feats against Kizaru and Aokiji and look only at what happened later. A moment of reading between the lines suggests that Oda made Akainu look a little extra badass at times and let Marco temporarily be the hype device, so to speak. There is nothing that justifies thinking Whitebeard's first mate is -that- far below the Admirals in power, even given that Akainu is the strongest of them.

Also, thinking that Thatch will matter but not Ace & Teach is pretty ridiculous too considering that...... you know...... Teach killed Thatch and Ace went after Teach fully confident in his ability to beat him. Think about that for a moment. Makes absolutely no sense for Thatch to be on a different level than those two.


----------



## Lord Melkor (Feb 25, 2013)

Lmao said:


> >Jozu alone can take on Aokiji
> >Marco and Vista *combined *merely annoy Akainu with their attacks
> >Akainu need 10 days to narrowly beat Kuzan
> 
> This has always bothered me, now unless Jozu is that much more superior to other commanders he is _not _really a match for Aokiji and the only way to justify what happened at MF is most likely: The Admirals were massively restricted (pirates too but still), given Aokiji's lazy personality he didn't fight Jozu as seriously as Akainu would fight his opponents.


 Why do you think that Akainu could not be hurt by Marco and Vista in a prolonged fight after we saw him tanking one attack from them? Battles between top tiers can take days after all, obviously admirals cannot seriously injure each other in one attack as well.


----------



## RF (Feb 25, 2013)

Lord Melkor said:


> obviously admirals cannot seriously injure each other in one attack as well.



They can.


Every admiral can potentially one-shoot a fellow top tier.


----------



## Lord Melkor (Feb 25, 2013)

-Sakazuki- said:


> They can.
> 
> 
> Every admiral can potentially one-shoot a fellow top tier.



Show me a OP fight where people on the same level one shot each other whie being focussed on each other. Aokiji and Akainu fought 10 days.


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 25, 2013)

Lmao said:


> >Jozu alone can take on Aokiji
> >Marco and Vista *combined *merely annoy Akainu with their attacks
> >Akainu need 10 days to narrowly beat Kuzan
> 
> This has always bothered me, now unless Jozu is that much more superior to other commanders he is _not _really a match for Aokiji and the only way to justify what happened at MF is most likely: The Admirals were massively restricted (pirates too but still), given Aokiji's lazy personality he didn't fight Jozu as seriously as Akainu would fight his opponents.



As you said, the Admirals were far more restricted than their enemies.



Coruscation said:


> Akainu beating Marco, Jozu and Vista at once is really, really ridiculous. Get a grip people. Numbers of weaker people not mattering as much against a top class Logia is all well and good but these are not weak people. They are the three strongest individuals in the strongest pirate crew in the world captain aside. Ponder that for just a second. Whitebeard's crew would be an embarassment if his three strongest individuals, which are way above any others, at the same time would lose to a single one of the Marine top fighters. Nothing justifies a stance like that. Akainu actually taking down Marco and Vista at once is already pushing it. You can't disregard Marco's feats against Kizaru and Aokiji and look only at what happened later. A moment of reading between the lines suggests that Oda made Akainu look a little extra badass at times and let Marco temporarily be the hype device, so to speak. There is nothing that justifies thinking Whitebeard's first mate is -that- far below the Admirals in power, even given that Akainu is the strongest of them.
> 
> Also, thinking that Thatch will matter but not Ace & Teach is pretty ridiculous too considering that...... you know...... Teach killed Thatch and Ace went after Teach fully confident in his ability to beat him. Think about that for a moment. Makes absolutely no sense for Thatch to be on a different level than those two.



It is not that far fetched, as we all know the Admirals were very restricted in Marineford, and due to their potential destructive output, might I add that they were most likely more restricted than the WB Pirates, whom are purely physical fighters. 

No one is implying that Marco is that far below the Admirals at all. I believe that in a one on one fight, any Admiral would need high difficulty to beat just him, but my point is that adding Vista to the fray makes little difference against a fighter like Akainu. Whereas, Marco has the ability suited for fighting a proficient magma user like Akainu, if Vista gets tagged, then he would automatically get killed by Akainu. Marco's feats against Kizaru & Aokiji are both great, but fact of the matter is, he caught Aokiji off guard in the same way the Admirals caught the Commanders off guard, and STILL couldn't cause damage. He saved Luffy and did his job, and that was sufficient. Him fighting Kizaru on equal terms for a little while is probably his best feat so far, but once again, he didn't make Kizaru budge, even though it is very impressive that he managed to hold him back. 

Saying that Oda made Akainu a little badass or Marco being the hype device aren't really valid reasons. Oda allowed Smoker to be off paneled by Doflamingo, and had his heart taken by Law. Even if he was the hype device or the worf effect so to speak, in this situation, it doesn't disregard that the ones whom beat him, and that is that. We *saw* Marco & Vista failing to cause damage, and we *saw* Akainu holding his own against all of the Commanders except Jozu.

 I never said that Thatch was on the same level as Teach & Ace. I even put it into brackets that the man is featless. We don't know how Teach killed the man. For all we know, it could have been a stealthy kill. Nonetheless neither of those 3 are going to be factors.

Also, you and I both know that the Admirals, Mihawk & WB were far more restricted during much of the war than the other top tiers, whom were also restricted in their own rights. As I said before, since many of the WB Pirates, in particular the top commanders, are all very physical fighters, despite having been restricted in Marineford, due to their fighting style, their individual destructive output when unrestricted is going to be far less than an unrestricted Admiral's, who would rely on larger scale AoE attacks from their Logias while not having to need to worry about their men being around them. 

I recognize that Marco is only a tier below the admirals, but the any fight with the Admirals are largely dependent on matchups, and caution, as adding fighters doesn't increase powerscaling to an automatic victory.

And I never said Akainu would solo Marco, Vista & Jozu with ease. I even said its one of those fights that could go either way, but imo I think Akainu could take it through extreme diff. I just think that Akainu is a terrible matchup for Vista, who is gonna be more of a factor than Ace, Teach, Thatch, and any of the lower Commanders, but wouldn't really hurt Akainu in any significant way. It would fall to Marco & Jozu, and a full health Akainu should be able to take it. While Marco has his regen and what not, Akainu has shown that he has the durability to tank two quakes from the WSM, and still keep going shortly after. 

Like I said though, it could go either way, as Jozu is very powerful, and is enough to tip the balance to their favor, and putting Jozu on the same team as Marco does make a very significant difference

Nonetheless, I respect your opinions and value your reasoning.


----------



## Lawliet (Feb 25, 2013)

Scenario 1: Akainu VS Marco & Vista
Akainu wins

Scenario 2: Akainu VS Marco, Jozu, Vista
Akainu loses cuz of Jozu. I have high expectations for Jozu.

Scenario 3: Akainu VS Marco, Vista, Crocodile, Lower Commanders(divisions 6-16)
Akainu wins, Jozu is not here.
Scenario 4: Akainu VS Marco, Vista, Jozu, Croc, Lower Commanders
Akainu loses.
Scenario 5: Akainu VS Marco, Vista, Jozu, Thatch, Croc, Teach, Ace, Lower Commanders
Akainu loses.
Scenario 6: Akainu VS Jozu, Vista, Teach, Ace (No Thatch, he's featless anyways)
Akainu wins, Marco is not here.
Scenario 7: Akainu VS Jozu, Vista, Teach, Ace, Lower Commanders (No Thatch)
Akainu wins, Marco is not here.


----------



## Whimsy (Feb 26, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Akainu beating Marco, Jozu and Vista at once is really, really ridiculous. Get a grip people. Numbers of weaker people not mattering as much against a top class Logia is all well and good but these are not weak people. They are the three strongest individuals in the strongest pirate crew in the world captain aside. Ponder that for just a second. Whitebeard's crew would be an embarassment if his three strongest individuals, which are way above any others, at the same time would lose to a single one of the Marine top fighters. Nothing justifies a stance like that. Akainu actually taking down Marco and Vista at once is already pushing it. You can't disregard Marco's feats against Kizaru and Aokiji and look only at what happened later. A moment of reading between the lines suggests that Oda made Akainu look a little extra badass at times and let Marco temporarily be the hype device, so to speak. There is nothing that justifies thinking Whitebeard's first mate is -that- far below the Admirals in power, even given that Akainu is the strongest of them.
> 
> Also, thinking that Thatch will matter but not Ace & Teach is pretty ridiculous too considering that...... you know...... Teach killed Thatch and Ace went after Teach fully confident in his ability to beat him. Think about that for a moment. Makes absolutely no sense for Thatch to be on a different level than those two.



I agree with this. The underestimation of the top Whitebeard commanders is staggering.


----------



## Coruscation (Feb 26, 2013)

> I believe that in a one on one fight, any Admiral would need high difficulty to beat just him, but my point is that adding Vista to the fray makes little difference against a fighter like Akainu



I can even accept that to a degree. Though you sure are taking the fact that Vista is someone respected by Mihawk awfully lightly by saying he is practically useless. But that does NOT even remotely justify the conclusion of giving Akainu the win against Marco, Vista _and_ Jozu. Vista is a controversy here, but Jozu much less so. It was all along Marco and Jozu that were hyped as Whitebeard's two best men and who were 2/3 of the "monster trio" of the pirates' side of the war. Obviously Oda wanted to show that Vista is up there as well by giving him basically identical hype through Mihawk. There's just absolutely no basis whatsoever for the conclusion you're arriving at. Whitebeard's three strongest fighters at once would beat a single Admiral.



> Even if he was the hype device or the worf effect so to speak, in this situation, it doesn't disregard that the ones whom beat him, and that is that. We saw Marco & Vista failing to cause damage, and we saw Akainu holding his own against all of the Commanders except Jozu.



And we *saw* that Marco casually tanked a huge Kizaru attack and sent him flying with massive force through his block. Yet you basically disregard that in favor of sweeping statements like the ones here, counting only the feats you prefer to count. We actually didn't see very much of Akainu fighting the commanders. We don't know exactly how that battle played out. You move back and forth so much between saying that people like Ace and Teach won't even be factors, and saying that weaker people will be factors, that I'm not sure if you should even be holding that the boatload of weaker commanders even mattered in that instance. Marco and Vista didn't hurt Akainu that one time, and yet? Akainu was irritated, which he would have no reason to be if they could not hurt him at all, and he was pushed back. And the two of them were not shaken by their failure to inflict damage. They didn't even seem to give it a split second's thought, actually. So it looks like you're reading more into that scene that's really there, while fully disregarding the hype device perspective. With respect to that, we of course can't disregard feats as we please but it's still important to keep in mind and it can be rather safely said that Akainu was being made to look very badass at that time, which corresponded with showing him in a most positive light. If Marco and Jozu were slightly overhyped early on, Akainu was it later. The truth is somewhere in the middle and I agree with your conclusion that an Admiral would take down Marco with high difficulty and no more than that. But there is no logical step at all from that to the same Admiral somehow beating Marco + Jozu + Vista all at once.



> I never said that Thatch was on the same level as Teach & Ace.



Misreading me? You spoke in one of your paragraphs as if Ace and Blackbeard wouldn't even be factors, but Thatch would. That is an absolutely baseless and illogical conclusion because of what I described to you. I guess you're backpedaling on that now.



> I just think that Akainu is a terrible matchup for Vista



How could Akainu be a "terrible matchup" for Vista? That doesn't make any sense. He's a Logia, Vista is a swordsman... what in that tells of a "terrible" match-up? Vista might have a bit of difficulty landing a proper hit on Akainu, sure. But with MARCO AND JOZU fighting together with him - you seriously need to start taking into account the difficulty of fighting multiple people at once, for all your talk of how adding people "doesn't increase powerscaling to an automatic victory" - that's pretty much a non-issue. Especially now that we've learned that Haki can easily be put into ranged slashes.


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 26, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> 1. I can even accept that to a degree. Though you sure are taking the fact that Vista is someone respected by Mihawk awfully lightly by saying he is practically useless. But that does NOT even remotely justify the conclusion of giving Akainu the win against Marco, Vista _and_ Jozu. Vista is a controversy here, but Jozu much less so. It was all along Marco and Jozu that were hyped as Whitebeard's two best men and who were 2/3 of the "monster trio" of the pirates' side of the war. Obviously Oda wanted to show that Vista is up there as well by giving him basically identical hype through Mihawk. There's just absolutely no basis whatsoever for the conclusion you're arriving at. Whitebeard's three strongest fighters at once would beat a single Admiral.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. I said that the fight could go either way with extreme difficulty. Vista is a very impressive fighter with a great feat of lasting in a fight against Mihawk. I don't take the fact that he was praised by Mihawk lightly at all, but we have seen through Mihawk's feats so far, that there is quite a large gap between the two fighters. Some of you take Vista's feat of clashing with Mihawk as them fighting on equal terms, while ignoring the fact that Mihawk had his eyes fixed on Luffy half the time, without looking at Vista, and still parried his attacks without much effort. Then there is the fact that it took several people just to stop Mihawk's carnage on the battlefield, and Vista was one of them(doing a damn good job at it too). 

Vista's feat of stalling Mihawk was great, but I think even you know that a serious Mihawk would assuredly mid-diff him in a fight. 

 Like I said, I made an opinion that I think the fight between Marco, Jozu, Vista & Akainu could go either way, because all it takes is one moment of having one's guard down(as proven by Aokiji VS Jozu), and both Jozu and Vista would be handily defeated, individually. Whereas, even if Akainu had his guard down, while he most definitely would be hurt and dealt heavy damage, it wouldn't be enough to take him out of the fight, due to his outstanding durability. That is how I arrived to such a conclusion.

2. I never disregarded Marco's feat of taking Yasakani No Magatama. It is very impressive considering that the attack is a non-stop barrage of lasers, which shows that Marco is still far above fighters like Post TS Luffy, as his Elephant Gattling wouldn't bypass his regen at all(unless u think Elephant Gattling is faster and more relentless than Yasakani No Magatama). However, we saw that the moment Marco had his guard down, Kizaru's lasers which pierced through them made him quite weary, although he did keep going. If Kizaru was to put a beam through the back of his head in that situation, do you think he would be able to keep going? Whereas, if Marco were to catch Kizaru off guard with a pretty dangerous attack, as he did to Akainu, do you think he can cause or inflict damage anywhere near that output? Especially when he was able to catch Aokiji off guard, but only managed to send him across a distance, rather than hurting him? In terms of dealing damage while catching their opponents off guard, Jozu actually did better than Marco, as he actually made his opponent bleed a bit, as little as it was. You also have to take into account that Kizaru did not even use Yata No Kagami, his lasers with greater DC, or his town level kicks against Marco within their brief clash. He also did not use Ama No Murakumo, his light based sword, to parry Marco's kick, and used his wrist instead, and even then, it did practically nothing and did not faze him. However, Marco did push him back a great distance, which like I said in a past thread is a great feat, and I do acknowledge this.

As for the Vista + Marco VS Akainu scenario back in MF, when they came out of nowhere and attacked him, Akainu said, "This is getting irritating. Haki users now"? He was trying to kill Luffy, who Jinbe saved, before Marco & Vista intervened. The "irritation" he felt could have been due to the fact that more and more people were getting in his way, as he was just facing the "traitor" he wanted to punish seconds ago, before two more fighters, haki users this time, came and interrupted him. Or of course, that could mean that their attacks did actually irritate him. In fact, it could have been both cases. Although Marco & Vista made contact, they were not able to wound him, and he even negated the impact. However, to be fair, neither Marco & Vista were of stable mindset at the time, and they were flustered. 

As for them not being shaken of their failure to inflict damage, really? Vista clearly said, "Such regret, we failed to stop him in his tracks", and Marco said, "How could we let this happen"(likely about Ace), so yes, they were shaken. Had they not have intervened, Jinbe would have been killed.

Nonetheless, I do agree with you with what you said about how hype devices work. It is a good point and I agree that it is important to note that Akainu was supposed to be made to look badass at the time, espcially since those couple of chapters were supposed to have raised his pedestal as a villain whom just caused the situation to become very grim, by killing the brother of the protagonist. I recognize and appreciate that notion of a hype device being placed there, in the same way that Marco, Vista & Jozu had their time and moments to shine in the early chapters of the war of taking attacks from, and clashing with opponents whom were both above them(Kizaru, Mihawk), so that's fine. My point is simply that I think the scene in which Akainu took their attacks and negated them, was to show us, the readers, that he has an incredible haki defense. Either that, or haki prowess in CoA which correlates to the way he fixes the intanbility of his logia due to his mastery of his DF, which is unique to him, or something of that nature.

Continued below...


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 26, 2013)

Continued...


3. Ok, let me explain. First of all, Ace has an elemental disadvantage against Akainu, which adds more to his chances of being one shotted, and thus being a non-factor. Teach is a fighter whom tends to "tank", take, or use his durability against an opponent's attack, rather then dodging or evading, since we all know about his durability, the nature of his powers, the fact that he lacks speed, and how he is the only logia who can't phase through. That type of approach on his part would get him one shotted by Akainu, unless you think that Yami Teach can tank even one Dai Funka head on. If you agree that he can't, then yes, he is a non-factor. You've used hype as one of the parts of the basis of your argument, as evident when you said that Vista was praised by Mihawk( Mihawk would dispose of Vista, however the praise is still good hype nonetheless). In the same logic of using hype as a part of my argument, I was making assumptions of Thatch's strength. There were two assumptions I had:

a. Either Thatch was likely to get one shotted and wouldn't be a factor(which is why I said, "no Thatch, since he is featless", because I was hesitant in where I would place him)

or 

b. to use hype as I said so above, and to deduce that since Thatch was the 4th Division Commander of the WB Pirates, in which he would be above Vista, then he would be one of the top commanders as well. Unlike Ace, he was supposedly around for quite a long time, and was not some replacement of his division like Ace. While Oda said that all the Commanders are equal, some say he meant "by authority", and even if he did mean that they were equal by strength, we all know better. Marco, is the strongest bar the captain, thus the 1st division commander. Ace was a special case and replaced the former 2nd division commander, while Jozu, the second strongest bar the captain followed as the 3rd division commander, despite being stronger than Ace. Then we have Vista as the 5th Division Commander, being the 3rd strongest commander bar the captain before the time skip. Since Thatch was around for some time, was the 4th division commander, and was not a replacement for some previous commander like Ace, wouldn't that mean that by rank, he would have been stronger than Vista? See what I'm trying to grasp at now? Like I said, I'm not trying to suggest that he was stronger than Ace, or Teach, but my above point stands. 

Also you didn't respond to my other point of Teach killing Thatch. We don't know how he did it. For all that is concerned, he could have just snuck behind and murdered him. It would have been unwise to start a fight with a presumably VA level Commander to kill him and take his fruit, while alarming the rest of the crew, and making them aware of your treachery, wouldn't it? So whether Pre Yami Teach was stronger than Thatch, remains unknown. Just saying that he might not have even killed him in a straight up fight. Not every plot-related murder has to somehow lead to a battle. 

Also, in response to this statement: 

"You move back and forth so much between saying that people like Ace and Teach won't even be factors, and* saying that weaker people will be factors, that I'm not sure if you should even be holding that the boatload of weaker commanders even mattered in that instance*". 

When did I ever say that the lower commanders from divisions 6-16 would be factors? Ace & Yami Teach are assuredly stronger than any of them, but all of them(Teach, Ace, Lowe Commanders) are still individual non-factors. I even said it several times that the lower Commanders are most likely VA level, and would get one shotted, thus amounting to nothing but non-factors. 



4. Akainu is a terrible match up for Vista because while I'm sure his long ranged, haki imbued slashes are going to cause damage, unlike other logia, Akainu's magma/lava is far more fluid. This isn't gonna be like trying to slash through a solid logia like Aokiji, or disassembling light particles with a slash like Rayleigh did to Kizaru. You might say that the slash might ignore the logia properties due to haki, but since Vista has shown that he can't cut Akainu or hurt him as Akainu's haki is stronger than his, which thus negates the damage he inflicts, then his haki completely ignoring Akainu's logia properties won't be much of an issue.

Whereas for example, if Mihawk were to fight Akainu, he would far more likely inflict actual damage against Akainu because: 

a. We can powerscale Mihawk's haki to be around the same ballpark as Akainu's.

b. Mihawk's slashes exhibited from the type of sword style he uses, causes far more destructive capacity, and AoE through raw physical strength and top tier CoA, which would make Akainu's magma intangibility completely irrelevant anyways. 

Vista however, doesn't use the same fighting style. While we can powerscale him to have great range in his slashes, beyond town level durability, and all of that, Vista's fighting style shows that he is more of a swordsman who uses close combat, fast paced parrying etc. and while his CoA and haki is presumably very impressive, it isn't enough to make Akainu budge, whereas despite not having shown haki feats on panel, we can assume that if Mihawk imbues his (powerscaled) top tier haki in his highly destructive, and extremely wide & long ranged slashes, he can cause far more damage to Akainu, fully bypass his CoA to cause more injuries, than Vista's haki imbued in his own slashes, and his haki which is shown to not be able to bypass Akainu's defences.

That is why I said Akainu is a terrible matchup for a swordsman who fights the way Vista does. He doesn't have the level of haki which lets him get away with fighting someone of Akainu's caliber at close range, and if he can't bypass his defences, for him to get so close to Akainu, would be a very bad move; especially if he's not lucky enough to catch him off guard anymore.

Hopefully I've presented things good enough for my point to be at least conveyed and reach to your side, so that you know what I'm trying to say here, thanks.


----------



## Shinthia (Feb 26, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> Scenario 2: Could go either way, but I think Akainu clears extreme diff. Like I said above, I believe  Akainu can mid-high diff Marco in a one on one fight, and against Admirals, numbers don't always necessarily equate to increased chance of victory, so please remember that. Jozu does make some difference here and his presence should *not* be seen as a negligible factor. However, Akainu would most certainly *one shot Jozu in the same way Aokiji did if he was in the same position of catching him off guard*.


Same way, Mihawk or even lolLAW can cut in half/one shoot Akaino,Aokiji or Kizaru if catch them off guard.


----------



## Lord Melkor (Feb 26, 2013)

My humble opinion is that Marco and Jozu are slightly underestimated, if the Admirals could beat them easily in duels with no interference they would do so in MF battle. It didn`t seem like the 3 Admirals can solo the WB Pirates (including WB) to me. Akainu could get past the WB commanders in off-panel fight but it didn`t seem to me like he could take them all alone.

*
Scenario 1: Akainu VS Marco & Vista *

Hmm, the question here is how close is Vista to Jozu, I will assume that he is not that far from him based on Mihawk's hype. The outcome depends on whether Akainu can get past Marco quickly to put down Vista, I quess that the commanders could take it with extreme difficulty and Vista dieing, but I am not sure. 


*Scenario 2: Akainu VS Marco, Jozu, Vista*

Akainu definately loses here, lower end of high difficulty for the commanders. Marco and Jozu together are too much, adding Vista gives commanders a comfortable advantage. Marco can block most attacks from Akainu while Jozu repeatedly uses Brilliant Punk and Vista slashes many times. Akainu may get some attacks through, but propably not enough to eliminate even one commander.

*Scenario 3: Akainu VS Marco, Vista, Crocodile, Lower Commanders(divisions 6-16)*

Commanders win with similar difficulty as the Scenario 2. The combined power of the lower commanders should at least match Jozu, though the problem is that they wouldn`t be able to all attack Akainu at once. But they could occupy him while Marco and Vista attack constantly.

*Scenario 4: Akainu VS Marco, Vista, Jozu, Croc, Lower Commanders*

Commanders win with medium-high difficulty. Easier than Scenarios 2 and 3. Akainu may incacipate one or two weaker commanders like Curiel before being overwhelmed.

Add another Admiral to help Akainu and they could take it extreme difficulty, perhaps.

*Scenario 5: Akainu VS Marco, Vista, Jozu, Thatch, Croc, Teach, Ace, Lower Commanders. *

Similar to 4, though Thatch, Teach and Ace are a minor advantage to commanders. Commanders win with medium difficulty. Even two Admirals may lose here.

*Scenario 6: Akainu VS Jozu, Vista, Teach, Ace (No Thatch, he's featless anyways)*

The odds are a bit similar to Scenario 1, if they have good teamwork with Teach and his DF they can win it.

*Scenario 7: Akainu VS Jozu, Vista, Teach, Ace, Lower Commanders (No Thatch) 
*
Commanders win with high difficulty, Jozu could engage Akainu in melee for a long time while others, in particular Vista and Teach, look for the openings.


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 26, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> Same way, Mihawk or even lolLAW can cut in half/one shoot Akaino,Aokiji or Kizaru if catch them off guard.



No Law can't.


The Admirals can one shot anyone they catch off guard, due to their abilities, which incapacitate or destroy, but why is it that others can't do the same to them? It's due to the nature of their logias, and their outstanding durability + endurance.


 if you think Law can one shot any of them if he catches them off guard..then I have nothing to say.

 They will just put themselves back together. 

Law wouldn't be able to one shot Marco or Jozu if he caught them off guard. 

Mihawk & Law aren't even comparable, since one uses raw strength which would kill anyone he catches off guard and is a top tier, while Law doesn't cut to kill and isn't even a top tier.

You can't just ignore powerscaling. Law isn't at a level where he can one shot distracted top tiers.


----------



## Coruscation (Feb 26, 2013)

Ugh, do you mind trying to trim down/focus your paragraphs? You don't need to type out absolutely everything at great length, especially when it's a big part speculation. Focus on the core, important points instead to make this bearable.



> I don't take the fact that he was praised by Mihawk lightly at all



Calling Vista useless against Akainu, someone roughly as strong as Mihawk, is taking it _pretty_ lightly. And please don't pretend that you aren't doing that. You say that Marco alone would lose with high difficulty and all three of them lose with extreme, a single step up. This doesn't make any sense at all if you have any degree of proper respect for the strength of Vista and Jozu. You refer to your idea of "a single moment can be devastating" to justify it. What you disregard is the hype surrounding Marco and Jozu, that they are the strongest fighters of the world's strongest crew, and the extreme difficulty of fighting multiple people at once. There is nothing that justifies a single one of the Marines top fighters beating Whitebeard's 3 strongest, that make up by far and away the majority of his crew's power, at once. At absolute BEST you can make the argument for Marco + Vista because we sort of saw them fight, even if briefly and off-panel. But to add the same Jozu in there that was WB's left hand man, stopped a gigantic slash from Mihawk with ease and fought Kuzan one on one for an extended period of time, is absolutely and totally baseless.

And please don't respond to this by writing ten paragraphs about why Jozu would have lost if the fight went on or Mihawk could have cut him if he went all-out. That's missing the point completely. The relevant part is their hype and feats.



> 2. I never disregarded Marco's feat of taking Yasakani No Magatama.



Saying you don't doesn't make it so. You cited only the later feats as if those were all we had to judge their powers by. You need to look at the big picture. Neither Marco taking on Admirals left and right through the war nor Akainu's feats are fake and/or useless, they both mean something. You seem to understand that perfectly well sometimes but then jump to unjustified conclusions.

Do you really not realize that their statements about regret and "how could we let this happen" were referring to Ace? They pushed Akainu back right after that, kept him away from Ace and Luffy. If them failing to hurt Akainu was a huge deal they should have been disturbed by it. Instead Marco alone stops Akainu's next attempt only moments later.



> In the same logic of using hype as a part of my argument, I was making assumptions of Thatch's strength.



Your assumptions boil down to "he was 4th commander, so he is stronger than Vista". You said in your opening post that Thatch would be a top commander while Ace & Teach are nonfactors that get one-shotted. But Blackbeard killed Thatch and Ace went after BB fully confident in his ability to kill him. Given that, it _does not make sense_ for Thatch to have been a level above Ace&Teach, that he would be a "factor" while not them.



> 4. Akainu is a terrible match up for Vista because (...)



None of this remotely justifies your conclusion that it's about "match-ups". All you did was effectively to say "Mihawk is stronger and would do better because he's stronger". That's not an argument for why Vista is a terrible match-up. It's an argument for why Akainu is simply stronger than Vista with all that brings with it. You don't need to write multiple paragraphs to express the simple point that Vista is a lot weaker than Akainu and would thus have some problems landing good hits on him. I said it in my last post, but your argument doesn't justify your conclusion. Vista is _fighting together with Marco and Jozu_. It is Akainu, not Vista, who will have his hands more than full in close quarters combat. And in your paragraphs you speak as if it were a 1v1 context thus completely ignoring the salient point I made even in my last post.


----------



## Shinthia (Feb 26, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> No Law can't.
> The Admirals can one shot anyone they catch off guard, due to their abilities, which incapacitate or destroy, but why is it that others can't do the same to them? It's due to the nature of their logias, and their outstanding durability + endurance.
> if you think Law can one shot any of them if he catches them off guard..then I have nothing to say.
> They will just put themselves back together.
> ...


1st:
U did not ans the Mihawk part.

2nd:
Law's DF ability is to cut everyfucking thing within his room. outstanding durability + endurance does not mean anything against his DF (if haki defense is not ON in other word if they r off guard)

Edit: Law does not have to cut a logia . He will just use MES just like the last logia he defeated.


----------



## Lord Melkor (Feb 26, 2013)

By the way, while the Akainu vs WB commanders at the end of war was offpaneled you can see here: , that Akainu wasn`t fighting alone, there are other Marines shown behind him.

Frankly, I do not think that WB would show at MF if he was sure he would lose, he would not let his other sons die if he didn`t think that there was a decent chance of saving Ace. And he knew what kind of Marine force he was facing, if Admirals could stop his entire force by themselves he wouldn`t come at all. I would say that fighting force of three Admirals was comparable to Whitebeard, Marco and Jozu at the start of MF.


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 26, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Ugh, do you mind trying to trim down/focus your paragraphs? You don't need to type out absolutely everything at great length, especially when it's a big part speculation. Focus on the core, important points instead to make this bearable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting points. 

I've trimmed the following down  a bit for the sake of saving time and convenience.

 I am not undermining Vista's feat, as he stalemated the WSS in a short skirmish, but nope, Vista isn't roughly as strong as Mihawk. Since you take hype into account as well, I think you know that, and before you say that he clashed equally with Mihawk, you've got to take into account that character mindset is very important. We have never seen Mihawk go serious, in the same way we haven't seen Aokiji or Kizaru go serious. Mihawk was more interested and curious with Luffy's latent ability to have people help him than he was with prolonging his duel with Vista. Half the time, he was not even looking at him. Moments before, he was casually cutting apart a mountain-sized iceburg, sending similar length slashes against Jozu, while fodderizing and toying around with anyone whom got in the way of his onslaught. Fighting against Vista was an opportunity for him to face the only other genuine swordsman in the war, and it was a duel instead of an all out fight. He didn't display anything nearly as impressive as what he did before, in terms of range, so yes, if the fight went on, Mihawk would have made short work of Vista.

Yes you are right, it is important to look at the big picture, which is why if Marco's feats against the Admirals are seen as noteworthy(which they are), then Akainu's feat of fighting the majority of the commanders and warding off Marco & Vista should be seen as being just as noteworthy.

In that scenario, Vista even said, "We failed to stop him".


You keep saying Teach killed Thatch and that makes him stronger, while ignoring what I said earlier about how we don't know about the circumstances which the muder went down. Ace isn't exactly a rhodes scholar. Him being confident was impulsiveness. WB even told him to let it go this time, while Ace became reckless, and went anyways, so it doesn't really support the whole, "Ace going after Teach despite knowing he killed Thatch". Like I said before, not every murder has to boil down to a fight.

Uh nope, it did justify my argument of it having to do with match ups, and if all you got out of that was me saying, "Mihawk was stronger than Vista so he would do better", then you completely missed my point. Either that or I didn't present my argument well enough, so allow me to do it again. I was using a 1 VS 1 context because you asked why Akainu would be a terrible match up for him. Why else would I? I was trying to use Mihawk as a reflective example of someone whose fighting style, range, and haki  prowess are crucial in dealing and causing damage against Akainu, and how Vista isn't. That was my intention. You asked in your first post why would Akainu be a terrible matchup for Vista, and that Vista is a swordsman, while Akainu is a logia, and that's it. 

But that's not it. My basis of Akainu being a bad match up for Vista isn't just based on the simple fact that Akainu is stronger. It is based on the fact that Vista's style of swordsmanship from what we have seen so far, shows that he is the type of swordsman to get up in someone's face to try to cut them, and how that kind of approach is bad against someone like Akainu, whom is not only extremely durable, but also possess a near untouchable(for people whose haki aren't on his level) and dangerous, fluid body, enough haki to negate his slashes, and is a very devastating CQC fighter with his logia up close. If Vista can't hurt Akainu up close, and if his haki prowess can't compensate for him bypassing Akainu's defense, then having so little distance between himself and Akainu would prove to be dangerous for Vista. 

You tell me not to say why an all out Mihawk would beat Jozu, and that hype and feats are relevant,  when hype dicates that Mihawk would demolish Jozu, and if we go by feats, while Vista has shown the skill and power to parry strong, long range slashes, he himself has never showed that his sword style is based on long range slashes.  Therefore, he won't distance himself from Akainu, and that is another reason for why I said he was badly matched.

As for why this 1 on 1 context is relevant to the discussion of Marco + Jozu + Vista fighting Akainu? If both teams have good starting distance between them, and if Akainu acts smart, then he can send large scale attacks against them, which would then be blocked or warded by either Marco or Jozu. He can then use Ryusei Kazan, to keep distance between them, and seperate the fighters. As this occurs, the other two would try to gang up on Akainu, and the best thing Akainu can do is take out the weakest one, this being Vista. He wouldn't be able to pull it off unscathed, or unattended by the other two, but he would pull it off, if he was serious and focused. Vista doesn't have the advantageous regenration or ultimate defence as the abilities of Marco & Jozu. As all 3 are physical fighters, they would try to get up close against Akainu, especially Jozu, who would use his diamond coated tackles, and Vista, who needs to get up close to slash Akainu. The same applies for Marco, who would try to kick Akainu. Marco & Jozu's abilities give them an advantage over Vista which allows them to get away with attacking a magma man with high haki mastery, up close. Vista's haki isn't on the level of the other 2, and he wouldn't cause much damage. Akainu plays it smart, takes out Vista in quick succession, then turns his attention to the other two for an extensive and tough battle, with Marco being the last standing of his team, before Akainu engages him with Akainu being more injured than Marco due to Marco's regen, and the contribution of the other two prior, but he outlasts him. 

I'm not trying to contradict your belief of Marco, Jozu, Vista beating Akainu. I'm just saying why I think it could go either way, and why Akainu might be able to pull it off.


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 26, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> 1st:
> U did not ans the Mihawk part.
> 
> 2nd:
> ...



Mihawk can't oneshot the Admirals in the same way the Admirals can't one shot Mihawk or any fighter in their own class, as Mihawk is definitely Admiral level, while Jozu & Marco aren't.

However yes, Mihawk can one shot an Admiral if they are not on their guard, and if Mihawk is not on his guard then an Admiral can one shot him too.

The same can't be said for Law.

Akainu was caught off guard by Vista & Marco, and his haki still negated their damage, so no Law can't do shit. 

And there is no way that Law would be able to use MES on a top tier logia like an Admiral even if they are off guard, for the reasons above.

Law is utter fodder compared to an Admiral, while Jozu & Marco are not.

Are you seriously going to compare the Admirals to Smoker?


----------



## Shinthia (Feb 26, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> Mihawk can't oneshot the Admirals in the same way the Admirals can't one shot Mihawk or any fighter in their own class, as Mihawk is definitely Admiral level, while Jozu & Marco aren't.
> 
> However yes, Mihawk can one shot an Admiral if they are not on their guard, and *if Mihawk is not on his guard then an Admiral can one shot him too.
> *
> ...


1st:
So, u wont disagree if i say this,
_"Akaino vs Marco, Jozu and Mihawk:
Akainu would most certainly one shot Mihawk in the same way Aokiji did if he was in the same position of catching him off guard."_

2nd:
Law's magic DF power and a physical force is not the same. Marco and Jozu did hurt (even tho close to 0 pain) or hit Akaino ,that means it made contact. Thats all Law need . No Haki defense + a clean hit = good bye to any level of outstanding durability + endurance.

I mentioned Smoker cause u said the Admirals will just put themselves back together AFTER being cut or MESed because they r logia.


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 26, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> 1st:
> So, u wont disagree if i say this,
> _"Akaino vs Marco, Jozu and Mihawk:
> Akainu would most certainly one shot Mihawk in the same way Aokiji did if he was in the same position of catching him off guard."_
> ...




If Mihawk joins the fight, then that team would take it low diff. Mihawk is around the same level as Akainu man, don't throw around matchups that don't make sense. It doesn't make any sense. It's like saying Shanks + Marco + Jozu VS Akainu or Kizaru + Marco + Jozu VS Akainu. 

And no, don't try to twist what I say. In that type of fight, Akainu wouldn't one shot him if Mihawk was caught off guard for the reasons I am about to state below in the next paragraph. Why? Because the Admirals, Mihawk and the Yonko can one shot anyone below their level. They have that capability. But Mihawk *IS* on their level.

1. It depends on the extent of how much they are being caught off guard. Let's say Akainu was caught off guard when not moving, in the same way that WB was caught off guard by Squard, and does not recover quickly after getting caught off guard, then of course Mihawk can one shot him. The same applies vice versa in that type of situation of being caught off guard. Why wouldn't Law be able to one shot either in the same situation? Because Akainu's haki defense, from what we have seen, seems to be automatic. Law doesn't have nearly enough haki to bypass his defenses, whereas Mihawk probably has just as much haki mastery as Akainu, allowing his attack to make contact. If they are in a fight, then no, since they are both top tiers, it would take more than a one shot for either party. The one shotting off guard scenario would only apply if a Admiral/Yonko level fighter caught someone below them off guard, and it depends on how quickly they recover from being caught off guard. So depending on the extent of being caught off guard, results may vary and aren't predictable, but most of the times, it might take more than a one shot for one top tier to deal to another top tier who is off guard. WB nearly one shotting Akainu, were it not for his quick recovery from being pummeled to the ground, which then prolonged the result into being a two hit K.O. instead of a one shot in their fight, is a perfect example.


On the other hand, while I did say Jozu would get one shotted by an Admiral-Yonko level fighter if he was caught off guard, I never said Marco would be. 

His abilities make him pretty much an exception to that rule. 

The reason is because, even if he were to be caught off guard in a one on one fight, and receive an attack of one-shot capabilities by an Admiral or Yonko, he would survive due to his outstanding regeneration capabilities, even if he would get pummeled eventually.

2. What do you mean magic df power? And Akainu not being affected by Marco & Vista catching him off guard isn't due to physical endurance  The point is that even when off guard, his haki is still automatic, and that is what negated the damage and impact of Vista & Marco's attack. The same applies if Law tries to cut Akainu if he catches him off guard. Akainu, despite being caught off guard, would still automatically negate that damage. It is by reflex.

With the same logic, Mes wouldn't be able to do anything to a distracted Admiral, due to their automatic defenses, even IF they are caught off guard.

Sorry If I sound rustled, but just take these points into account, and you'll see what I mean.


----------



## Shinthia (Feb 26, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> If Mihawk joins the fight, then that team would take it low diff. Mihawk is around the same level as Akainu man, don't throw around matchups that don't make sense. It doesn't make any sense. It's like saying Shanks + Marco + Jozu VS Akainu or Kizaru + Marco + Jozu VS Akainu.
> 
> And no, don't try to twist what I say. In that type of fight, Akainu wouldn't one shot him if Mihawk was caught off guard for the reasons below.
> 
> ...


1st:
u r not sure what u r saying. Cause

1.u say Mihawk can oneshoot Akaino if Akaino is not moving. or vv
2.then u say, in a fight Mihawk/Akaino cant do that . So, why bring that up ?
3.then u say, Akaino can one shoot everyone who is not Admiral or Yonko level *if they r off guard*. Should not this apply to the Admirals too BYO and also aint Jozu and Marco is below admiral level too. Why did not u mentioned their name to be oneshooted list in ur OP ?

all 3 point cant be true at the same time . Can it?

2nd Part:
I was talking about Marco and Vista's attack power not akaino's physical endurance .
So, Marco and Vista broke through Akainou's (automatic :rofl ) haki defense ? Since when haki is automatic  that assumption beyond assamption? If u r off guard /defenseless how is there a defense ? They attacked him and it hit Akaino while off guard/defenseless. Its just simple as that.

And the advantage of being Law is that if there is no haki defense then he will cut u. PreTS Law could have cut PX-5 if he could made a contact despite being very weaker than PX-5.

Did not u say earlier, Admiral can just put themselves back together (after being hit by Law ) ? and now u r saying law cant cut them ? 
I dont think u r sure about anything today.So, no matter what u reply i wont post until tomorrow . This will give u time to think what u really believe and what u dont. Cause r8 now u r not the reasonable guy that u normally r. Sorry. See u in 24 hours. And good luck . In the mean time Coru is there for u


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 26, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> 1st:
> u r not sure what u r saying. Cause
> 
> 1.u say Mihawk can oneshoot Akaino if Akaino is not moving. or vv
> ...



Once again, you misread nearly everything I said.
1st Part:

1. We were discussing about being caught off guard. There are multiple variable factors.

2. Cause it's a different way of getting caught off guard. Come on you are smarter than this, you should know the difference. 

3. No Admiral can one shot another Admiral, caught off guard or not. I mentioned that Jozu can be oneshotted by them if caught off guard later anyways, and Marco is an exception to that rule due to his regen. 


2nd Part: 

1. No you weren't. You said that "No Haki defense+a clean hit=goodbye to any durability or physical endurance." You were clearly referring to a scenario where if Law cut an off guard Akainu. This is what you said.



Lionel Messi said:


> 1st:
> So, u wont disagree if i say this,
> _"Akaino vs Marco, Jozu and Mihawk:
> Akainu would most certainly one shot Mihawk in the same way Aokiji did if he was in the same position of catching him off guard."_
> ...



You were clearly referring to  Akainu's level of durability and physical endurance.


2. No it is not as simple as that. They didn't hurt him for the tenth fucking time  Saying that Akainu's haki defense was automatic isn't an assumption beyond an assumption any more than saying that Law can cut through everyone and anyone jesus christ. Akainu showed that despite being caught off guard, he was able to negate Marco & Vista's haki attacks with his own haki, which was why they couldn't hurt him, because his haki defenses were not bypassed. Since he was caught off guard, then he had the defense activated by reflex. It isn't that hard to grasp. 

3. How is PX-5 even comparable? Bypassing haki defense has nothing to do with strength. It's about haki prowess. While a PX-5 has no haki to counter Law, his abilites aren't as broken as you make them out to be. If Law could one shot a PX-5 and cut it, then why didn't he do that back in the SA, and had to struggle with Eustass, Jean Bart, Killer, and Bepo?

I'm being unreasonable? No that is you. The point is this:

1. If Law cut Akainu, then yes he can reform. It is a bonus option available to top tiers whom are Logia.

2. But Akainu has a second option which is default for top tiers proficent in CoA. That is using a haki defense in reflex despite being caught off guard, so that wouldn't even matter. He showed this when he negated Marco & Vista's haki imbued attacks with his own haki, DESPITE being caught off guard. This proves that his haki defense was by reflex, despite the fact that they came out of nowhere.

You say that Law can one shot an Admiral who is off guard, but then if they can reform themselves anyways, how does that equate to Law one shotting them at all? You are the one contradicting yourself. 

You missed the point of my arguments, went on to claim that they were contradicting each other, when it was in fact, you, the association between them, and why they could be true together, and you also claimed that Akainu somehow negating Marco & Vista's haki attacks being unrelated to him having automatic haki defenses, despite being caught off guard. If he negated their haki with his, despite being caught off guard, then it is obvious that he did so by reflex. 



As for Law's MES: He can try to resort using that since his cut won't do shit against off guard Akainu who can, as I stated many times, put up a defense of haki by reflex, or simply reform himself.

If he uses MES, it still would be the same situation as Marco & Vista catching Akainu off guard and slashing him to no avail, as Akainu's haki defense would simply negate that shit.

The only way Law can take down or one shot an off guard Akainu, is if Akainu willingly take down his own haki defenses which he has shown to use by reflex, does not go intangible by reflex, and does not move at all. Then Law can pull it off. But if that is so you might as well tell Akainu to jump in the ocean if your gonna restrict him that much just so Law can get a chance in his current level one shot an off guard Akainu. It just doesn't work like that.

@Coruscation Sorry man, I'm gonna sign out for the night. If you happen to post anything, I will be sure to read them when I am up and catch up on them soon enough.

Thank you all for taking part in this discussion.


----------



## Lord Melkor (Feb 26, 2013)

Doflamingo, why do you think that Vista is incapable of ranged slashes if Zoro and Mihawk can use them? We did not see him fight enough to draw such conclusion but I really doubt that he cannot use them at all.

And do you believe that Admirals could solo the WB`s crew (including WB) at the start of MF? If you count Sengoku, Garp, Mihawk, Vice Admirals etc. then the Admirals weren`t even 50% of WG's strenght at Marineford. Yet they cared enough to devise elaborate strategy to cause Squardo to stab WB, which is a testament to how much they were wary of WB's strenght, of course, but his commanders were not highligted as unimportant.


----------



## Harard (Feb 26, 2013)

LOL at people saying a fight between Akainu vs Marco, Jozu, and Vista could go either way.   The WB commanders should comfortably win this one.


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 26, 2013)

Lord Melkor said:


> Doflamingo, why do you think that Vista is incapable of ranged slashes if Zoro and Mihawk can use them? We did not see him fight enough to draw such conclusion but I really doubt that he cannot use them at all.
> 
> And do you believe that Admirals could solo the WB`s crew (including WB) at the start of MF? If you count Sengoku, Garp, Mihawk, Vice Admirals etc. then the Admirals weren`t even 50% of WG's strenght at Marineford. Yet they cared enough to devise elaborate strategy to cause Squardo to stab WB, which is a testament to how much they were wary of WB's strenght, of course, but his commanders were not highligted as unimportant.



Nah I know he can do it since Zoro can as well, and Vista is definitely above Zoro, but it would be irrelevant since his haki won't bypass Akainu's. Powerscaling dicates that he has long range slashes though, so I'm sure he can.

I do believe that if all 3 Admirals were to fight the WB Pirates unrestricted, they would solo the crew, yes. We're talking about three fighters whom are very close and can fight on par against the Yonko. 

Two Admirals and below though, then no, since WB makes a huuge difference, as opposed to the OP excluding him.

Three of them however, then they got it in the bag. 

If you look at Marineford, imagine how much of a difference it would make to lift the restrictions by removing the fodder marines below the Admirals, and let all 3 of them spam their large scale AoE attacks. 

If the WB Pirates also lifted their restrictions, WB would be even more devastating that what he was. The same with his top commanders. However the unrestricted commanders' destructive output wouldn't be anywhere close to that of the unrestricted Admirals. 

The restricions in MF were the main reason why many people conclude that none of the top tiers went all out.


----------



## Lord Melkor (Feb 26, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> Nah I know he can do it since Zoro can as well, and Vista is definitely above Zoro, but it would be irrelevant since his haki won't bypass Akainu's. Powerscaling dicates that he has long range slashes though, so I'm sure he can.
> 
> I do believe that if all 3 Admirals were to fight the WB Pirates unrestricted, they would solo the crew, yes. We're talking about three fighters whom are very close and can fight on par against the Yonko. Two Admirals and below though, no way.
> 
> ...



And what about WB pirates vs Admirals if WB was in his prime i.e. better Haki defense and no heart attacks, among other things? 

They used a bit of large scale attacks though, in particular Akainu. My impression was that top tiers were focussed on fighting other top tiers . Also, the weaker commanders are not that irrelevant, because they can at least distract the Admirals and help create openings for stronger ones. Several weaker commanders helped Luffy get past Kizaru, so they are not a total non-factor in such a fight.

Myself I would say that the Admirals would need two other Admiral level fighters (like Sengoku and Garp) to solo the WB crew (including WB of course) and it could go either way with four Admiral level fighters, in particular if WB didn`t get that wound from Squardo and didn`t suffer heart attacks in the middle of the fight.


----------



## Urouge (Feb 26, 2013)

Harard said:


> LOL at people saying a fight between Akainu vs Marco, Jozu, and Vista could go either way.   The WB commanders should comfortably win this one.



Yeah this

Akainu is strong but he's not strong enough to beat two low top tiers a really stron high tier.


----------



## Shinthia (Feb 26, 2013)

Plz Doflaming try to keep ur post short. It really does not help. Reply to the point plz.



> Once again, you misread nearly everything I said.
> 1st Part:
> 
> 1. We were discussing about being caught off guard. *There are multiple variable factors.*



why? we r talking about the moment when Aokiji one shooted Jozu. Why shgould there be multiple factors ?



> 1. No you weren't. You said that "No Haki defense+a clean hit=goodbye to any durability or physical endurance." You were clearly referring to a scenario where if Law cut an off guard Akainu. This is what you said.
> ............
> You were clearly referring to  Akainu's level of durability and physical endurance.



Yes. Whats wrong with dat ? It does not matter at all for Law. But for Marco and Vista it does.



> 2. No it is not as simple as that. They didn't hurt him for the tenth fucking time
> 3. How is PX-5 even comparable? Bypassing haki defense has nothing to do with strength. It's about haki prowess. While a PX-5 has no haki to counter Law, his abilites aren't as broken as you make them out to be. If Law could one shot a PX-5 and cut it, then why didn't he do that back in the SA, and had to struggle with Eustass, Jean Bart, Killer, and Bepo?


So, Akaino was not affected at all by that ? Then i suppose Akaino should have just ignored him and walk calmly as Marco and Vista's attack cant even hurt him. He had nothing to fear than after WB's death. Nothing can even hurt him on that point if the strongest WB commander can't. 

Px-5 = no haki , Off Guard (no guard at all including haki guard) Akaino = no haki.

Its basically the same for Law's ability. And i should also tell u i said* if* Law can hit PX-5, which is not easy.



> I'm being unreasonable? No that is you. The point is this:
> 
> 1. If Law cut Akainu, then yes he can reform. It is a bonus option available to top tiers whom are Logia.



Have u seen any Logia get up after Law's cut. Ans: no.
Have u seen Law capable of one shooting a logia. Ans: yes. 
So, weather its a cut or MES does not matter as long he is hakiless and within his room , one shoot is a obviously possible.


Besides, I think its already clear that *Marco + Jozu + Vista > Akaino*  (seeing the thread) .
 So, there is no need for pointless argument. and if u still cant see it, i am afraid no one can convince u.


----------



## Pink Matter (Feb 26, 2013)

Have we actually seen Law cut a Logia in his Room?


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 26, 2013)

Lord Melkor said:


> And what about WB pirates vs Admirals if WB was in his prime i.e. better Haki defense and no heart attacks, among other things?
> 
> They used a bit of large scale attacks though, in particular Akainu. My impression was that top tiers were focussed on fighting other top tiers . Also, the weaker commanders are not that irrelevant, because they can at least distract the Admirals and help create openings for stronger ones. Several weaker commanders helped Luffy get past Kizaru, so they are not a total non-factor in such a fight.
> 
> Myself I would say that the Admirals would need two other Admiral level fighters (like Sengoku and Garp) to solo the WB crew (including WB of course) and it could go either way with four Admiral level fighters, in particular if WB didn`t get that wound from Squardo and didn`t suffer heart attacks in the middle of the fight.



If its WB in his prime I guess it makes it a different story.



Lionel Messi said:


> Plz Doflaming try to keep ur post short. It really does not help. Reply to the point plz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We were talking about the issue of being "caught off guard" and if there are different level of fighters who might recover faster after that, then it is kind of different.

That applies only if Law's haki is superior to someone else. 

Uh, that is your assumption. The fact of the matter was that Marco & Vista used their haki and hit Akainu. Akainu negated the damage and impact of the blow completely with his haki, and the only thing they achieved was irritating him during that moment. Law, whose haki isn't even on par with Marco and presumably Vista, won't make Akainu budge even as much in the same situation, especially since in that moment, it was the *combined* efforts of both of those guys which didn't amount to much. So yes, Law can't do shit, since his haki is below Marco's. 

Who said Akainu's situation was even comparable to PX-5? How many times do I have to say it. Marco & Vista used their haki but Akainu countered it with his own defense. They caught him off guard for christ' sake   

As Pink Matter said, we've never even seen Law one shot a logia. Law couldn't because if he did it against Smoker, whose haki isn't even on par with Law's or Akainu's, he would have just reformed as a logia. That is the reason why he resorted to MES. Akainu's haki is far superior to both Law or Smoker's, so Smoker isn't even comparable just because he's a logia. 

And you didn't prove that why Akainu DIDN'T use his haki by reflex *despite being caught off guard*. 

I'm fine with people disagreeing with me and saying that Marco+Vista+Jozu>Akainu, but as for the Law one-shotting Akainu while he's off guard, the answer is no he can't, and if the points above did not convince you why, then I cannot help you any further.



Pink Matter said:


> Have we actually seen Law cut a Logia in his Room?




Exactly, which is why he resorted to Mes. Not only that, but Smoker's haki defense isn't even on the same level as Akainu's. If he was attacked by Marco & Vista in that same situation Akainu was in, Smoker would have been down for the count.


----------



## Shinthia (Feb 27, 2013)

Pink Matter said:


> Have we actually seen Law cut a Logia in his Room?


but we did saw he one shoot a logia tho.


@Doflamingo



> We were talking about the issue of being "caught off guard" and if there are different level of fighters who might recover faster after that, then it is kind of different.



*caught* off guard mean *catching* 100% off guard  . So, recover is not an option here



> That applies only if Law's haki is superior to someone else ETC ETC



U r missing my point over and over again. *Off guard* means no guard at all (that includes haki guard) and *catching* off guard means Law caugh/hit him while no haki guard is active.
It does not has to be a cut, MES can do the trick just fine for logia as proven. Smoker having crappy haki than Admirals has nothing to do with this (as it is basically hakiless Akaino).


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 27, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> but we did saw he one shoot a logia tho.
> 
> 
> @Doflamingo
> ...



It wasn't a one shot man. A one shot is where a fight ends in one move. They exchanged for a while, before Law resorted to MES. And he's never cut a logia on panel yet.

If you were talking about the Jozu scenario, then there is a chance for recovery. Jozu turned his attention back to Aokiji, despite it being too late, did he not? That in itself is a recovery of reaction. That is crucial in a fight.


Then why did you say it was the Jozu scenario and not the Squard/WB scenario if that was the case? You might as well tell the Admiral to not move, sleep, and let Law do his thing.


You are speaking in circles.

But guess what? Top tiers have proven to put up instinctive and haki by reflex, be it CoO, or CoA.

Take Ace trying to sneak up and kill WB for example. The man was asleep, and was not on guard at all. Yet, his CoO was automatic, and that allowed him to react and punch the shit out of Ace, unless you think that somehow, he was asleep and on guard at the same time, which makes no sense.

The same applied in CoA with what happened to Akainu VS Marco + Vista. They caught him off guard, yet his CoA was proven to be activated by reflex.

The only way Law can one shot a top tier or an Admiral, is if you asked them to take that reflective instinct away from them, and not move a single muscle. 

Other than that, even if he catches them off guard, as long as his haki can't bypass his automatic CoA defenses, then he can't one shot them.

I've used evidence from what happened in the plot and past fights to support why top tiers have a CoA defense by reflex, while you insinuate that Law can one shot a top tier caught off guard, despite us having seen two top tiers being in situations where they are completely off guard, and were still not touched.

Do you mean caught off guard, or do you simply mean being paralyzed? Cause I'll admit that if a top tier is paraplegic, unable to react, etc then Law would be able to pull it off. But being caught off guard is totally different. Unless you are saying that he can do it to a top tier who is paralyzed, unable to move, unable to react and frozen in motion, then your argument of the whole "off guard" scenario makes little sense in this case.

You claim that Law can one shot any distracted or off guard Logia, when his fight against Smoker was far from a one shot, and when law has never cut a logia(even though I know he can, despite them reforming or the top tier logias countering it with their CoA by reflex). 

Also Smoker having weaker haki than the Admirals have EVERYTHING to do with it. Why? Because Smoker's haki isn't at a level where he can be at liberty to have his CoA defenses activated by reflex, while Akainu is, and has shown that he can do it.


----------



## Shinthia (Feb 27, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> It wasn't a one shot man. A one shot is where a fight ends in one move. They exchanged for a while, before Law resorted to MES. And he's never cut a logia on panel yet.
> 
> If you
> (....................................................) has shown that he can do it.



U have to stop with this huge reply try to make it small. Plz ,plz ,plz.

Smoker :
Oh God. They exchanged for a while cause law did not find any opening, same is true for Smoker. and when he did , it was one shoot . Was it not ?

ur Example:
 WB's haki defense is not automatic . No ones is. If it was automatic than Squard could not even dream to stab WB. Just switch Law with Squard and make Law use MES. Reasult= WB (the WSM above anyone) is defeated / one shooted. Thats what off guard is no defense at all ,whatsoever.


----------



## Sayonara (Feb 27, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> U have to stop with this huge reply try to make it small. Plz ,plz ,plz.
> 
> Smoker :
> Oh God. They exchanged for a while cause law did not find any opening, same is true for Smoker. and when he did , it was one shoot . Was it not ?
> ...



I understand your point and agree to some extent , anyone can be killed in the right situation regardless of how strong they are, but WB is really a special guy even after taking/crushing his heart hes probably still capable of performing one last attack, so I would rule out one shot and go with they both die.


----------



## Lmao (Feb 27, 2013)

Marco implied a healthy Whitebeard could've easily dodged Squard's attack even if he wasn't _expecting _it from an _ally_. That's the kind of reactions top tiers, and specifically WB possess, that make Law's chances of catching them off guard nonexistent.


----------



## Shinthia (Feb 27, 2013)

Sayonara said:


> I understand your point and agree to some extent , anyone can be killed in the right situation regardless of how strong they are, but WB is really a special guy even after taking/crushing his heart hes probably still capable of performing one last attack, so I would rule out one shot and go with they both die.


Yes. may be. Cause WB was the one who did not die after half of his face got melted . Logic does not apply to him , i guess. lol




Lmao said:


> Marco implied a healthy Whitebeard could've easily dodged Squard's attack even if he wasn't _expecting _it from an _ally_. That's the kind of reactions top tiers, and specifically WB possess, that make Law's chances of catching them off guard nonexistent.



Law does not have a ghost of a chance to *catch* any Admirals or Yonko off guard. I know that very well.
But, i was debating about , *what if* Law do *catch* them off guard.


----------



## DoflaMihawk (Feb 27, 2013)

Akainu loses to any two-man combination of Marco, Jozu and Vista.

Honestly, people seriously underrate Marco and Vista just because they couldn't damage Akainu that one time.


----------



## Mihawk (Feb 27, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> U have to stop with this huge reply try to make it small. Plz ,plz ,plz.
> 
> Smoker :
> Oh God. They exchanged for a while cause law did not find any opening, same is true for Smoker. and when he did , it was one shoot . Was it not ?
> ...



But Squard isn't a character who has a devil fruit 

He was an ally to the WBs and considered one of his sons. Of course WB was not expecting. Totally different situations and one where WB's haki wouldn't be involved, since your talking about reacting to a generic stab, not some hax devil fruit one shot technique where you need a CoA defense to negate the properties of the attack itself. Haki doesn't counter everything and anything. It acts as a combat counter and defense against other haki users, or devil fruit users



Lionel Messi said:


> Law does not have a ghost of a chance to *catch* any Admirals or Yonko off guard. I know that very well.
> But, i was debating about , *what if* Law do *catch* them off guard.




If you know this very well, then there is no point in this discussion, as that means you've grasped what I've said, so good on you.


----------



## Shinthia (Feb 27, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> But Squard isn't a character who has a devil fruit
> 
> He was an ally to the WBs and considered one of his sons. Of course *WB was not expecting*. Totally different situations and one where WB's haki wouldn't be involved, since your talking about reacting to a generic stab, not some hax devil fruit one shot technique where you need a CoA defense to negate the properties of the attack itself. Haki doesn't counter everything and anything. It acts as a combat counter and defense against *other haki users*, or devil fruit users


not expecting and catching off guard is kinda the same thing. Cause , if he is not expecting a attack he will not be on his guard (he will be off guard )

Who said Squard cant be a haki user ? He is NW captain , he has haki(when tashigi has it). As for DF power ,Mihawk does not have it but u agreed b4 that Mihawk can one shoot. So, i cant see the point here.



> If you know this very well, then there is no point in this discussion, as that means you've grasped what I've said, so good on you.


i knew this from the very start. But, u did not . See my first post about Law,


> Same way, Mihawk or even lolLAW can cut in half/one shoot Akaino,Aokiji or Kizaru* if catch* them off guard.


ur reply


Doflαmingo said:


> No Law can't.
> if you think Law can *one shot any of them if he catches them off guard*..then I have nothing to say.
> 
> Law wouldn't be able to one shot Marco or Jozu if he caught them off guard.
> ...


----------



## HappyHalloween (Feb 28, 2013)

WB's crew themselves were weak, however the threat of WB was immense.  WB's crew is completely opposite of Shank's crew.

WB's crew = 75% of the entire crew's strength comes from WB and the remainder 25% is the crewmates
Shank's crew = 50% of the crew's strength is Shanks and the other 50% comes from the crew.

That's why Akainu wins every scenario, Akainu already has the manga feat of taking on the entire WB crew solo after a tough win against Whitebeard.


----------



## Lord Melkor (Feb 28, 2013)

HappyHalloween said:


> WB's crew themselves were weak, however the threat of WB was immense.  WB's crew is completely opposite of Shank's crew.
> 
> WB's crew = 75% of the entire crew's strength comes from WB and the remainder 25% is the crewmates
> Shank's crew = 50% of the crew's strength is Shanks and the other 50% comes from the crew.
> ...



No, he does not have such feat, I even posted a link to page when he beats Curiel and there are Marines next to him. This was a huge battle with a lot of people involved, we didn`t see Akainu actually fighting them all by himself. Actually, what we saw was that Admirals were fighting WB, Marco and Jozu during the war mostly, as these are the guys that could match them.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 1, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> not expecting and catching off guard is kinda the same thing. Cause , if he is not expecting a attack he will not be on his guard (he will be off guard )
> 
> Who said Squard cant be a haki user ? He is NW captain , he has haki(when tashigi has it). As for DF power ,Mihawk does not have it but u agreed b4 that Mihawk can one shoot. So, i cant see the point here.
> 
> ...



*sigh*

it's not the same thing, there are different circumstances. The one with Jozu & the one with WB are perfect examples.

I didn't say he wasn't a haki user. Pretty sure he is, since as u said, he's a NW captain, so its a basic requirement. I just said that we don't know if he imbued haki to stab WB or if it was just a stab. Of course, I am not ruling out that he did use haki that moment, but at the same time, he might not have done so, since it would have been wise to not give the impression that your imbuing haki if your gonna pull off a dirty and underhanded stab like that.

And what does Mihawk having a df or not have to do with this? As long as he has CoA defenses then it's fine.


----------



## Pink Matter (Mar 1, 2013)

Akainu can beat any WB commander 1v1 and maybe, just maybe edge out a win against Marco+Vista with nothing short of extreme difficulty. He loses if Jozu's added to the mix.


----------



## Shinthia (Mar 1, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> *sigh*
> 
> it's not the same thing, there are different circumstances. The one with Jozu & the one with WB are perfect examples.
> 
> ...





> "But Squard isn't a character *who has a devil fruit *"


This gave me the impression that u think DF user is the only one who can one shoot others. Thats why Mihawk was mentioned. 



> " Of course *WB was not expecting.*"



Thats why he was off guard bro.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 3, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> This gave me the impression that u think DF user is the only one who can one shoot others. Thats why Mihawk was mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats why he was off guard bro.



Yes that is why he was off guard..why are you using my own arguments against me then? I said there it is a different type of catching off guard. Squard was one of his sons, while Vista & Marco were no friendly guys to Akainu.

Also, Akainu was caught off guard by Crocodile, whom cut him, despite Akainu having sustained no injuries. 

Are you going to tell me that Akainu still has no automatic Haki defense despite him being caught off guard by Croc, which clearly proves that his CoA is by reflex? This proves that Law can't do shit to Akainu despite catching him off guard because Law's haki is nowhere near his, which wouldn't bypass his automatic defense


----------



## Shinthia (Mar 3, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> Yes that is why he was off guard..why are you using my own arguments against me then? I said there it is a different type of catching off guard. Squard was one of his sons, while Vista & Marco were no friendly guys to Akainu.
> 
> Also, Akainu was caught off guard by Crocodile, whom cut him, despite Akainu having sustained no injuries.
> 
> Are you going to tell me that Akainu still has no automatic Haki defense despite him being caught off guard by Croc, which clearly proves that his CoA is by reflex? This proves that Law can't do shit to Akainu despite catching him off guard because Law's haki is nowhere near his, which wouldn't bypass his automatic defense



U think Haki defense is automatic, if u truly believe that (which i dont) then Squard being a friend or enemy should not matter .Cause Haki defense is AUTOMATIC (iyo).

Cause Crocodile does not have haki.

Yes. Cause Akaino is logia and Croc doe not have haki. Akaino can even go to sleep and still Croc cant hit him. Smoker would solo the whole SH crew preTS cause Smoker is logia and SH's does not have haki to hit him. Law can make Akaino his bitch if he can catch him off guard.


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Mar 3, 2013)

DoflaMihawk said:


> Akainu loses to any two-man combination of Marco, Jozu and Vista.
> 
> Honestly, people seriously underrate Marco and Vista just because they couldn't damage Akainu that one time.



Yeah but it's pretty sad that they both got a *free shot* on Akainu and it didn't do shit


----------



## Lord Melkor (Mar 3, 2013)

Haruhifan6969 said:


> Yeah but it's pretty sad that they both got a *free shot* on Akainu and it didn't do shit



Well, if it wasn`t for that feat I would say that Marco is Admiral's equal, but Akainu got a major hype after WB's death at the expense of Marco. On the other hand, we didn`t see Admirals being able to hurt Marco until he was distracted or without his DF fruit and it still didn`t stop him. So he is a match to Admiral in defense and speed but lacks a bit in attack power, by MF feats.

I also wouldn`t say that this attack "did nothing". If Akainu could completely ignore it he wouldn`t say that "annoying" part. I quess that if his overall stamina/health was at 100 it lowered it to 95 or something like this.


----------



## RF (Mar 3, 2013)

Lord Melkor said:


> I also wouldn`t say that this attack "did nothing". If Akainu could completely ignore it he wouldn`t say that "annoying" part. I quess that if his overall stamina/health was at 100 it lowered it to 95 or something like this.



It doesn't work like that lol...

if that attack was in the least bit effective Akainu would have died.

cutting attacks are far superior to anything else when inflicting damage to an individual


----------



## Renegade Knight (Mar 3, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> lol. i did not read all those but here is my post as u asked.
> 
> S1: could go either way xtrm diff.
> S2: Akaino loses .
> ...



Pretty much this.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 4, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> U think Haki defense is automatic, if u truly believe that (which i dont) then Squard being a friend or enemy should not matter .Cause Haki defense is AUTOMATIC (iyo).
> 
> Cause Crocodile does not have haki.
> 
> Yes. Cause Akaino is logia and Croc doe not have haki. Akaino can even go to sleep and still Croc cant hit him. Smoker would solo the whole SH crew preTS cause Smoker is logia and SH's does not have haki to hit him. Law can make Akaino his bitch if he can catch him off guard.




Uh no, WB was not even going forth to fight yet. He was still relaying orders. Don't you get it? Squard isn't a DF user. Even though we all know haki reacts as a good defense against both DF attacks or non DF attacks, I think that pure weapons work differently that DF imbued attacks or projectiles. Sure, DF attacks or haki-imbued attacks are a lot more devastating, but I doubt that regular weapons can be countered with in the same way DF ones can. I migh be wrong of course.

WB was charging forth against a bunch of fodder marines and chose to tank all of their attacks. Wouldn't it have been wiser to counter their attacks with haki somehow, despite the fact they were simply using regular weapons?

Explain then, how despite Ace caught WB off guard, WB still punked him. His CoO was obviously automatic, unless u think he was pretending to sleep.


Then explain what the fuck happened during the Marco & Vista scuffle against Akainu. He obviously negated their own haki with his own, and he was caught off guard. I guess it wasn't automatic then? 

The croc part was correct, I forgot about that, my bad. However, the thing is Croc doesn't have haki, while Marco & Vista does, so once again, explain what happened in the above.



Uh no, off guard or not, Law won't be able to do shit against Akainu. What the fuck is he going to do to Akainu exactly? We know that his cuts won't do shit. 

MES? Seems like you are just wanking Law if you think he can one shot any off guard top tier just because of his one shot capabilties. 

Take a look at what happened when Jozu caught Aokiji off guard for example. Jozu obviously caught Aokiji off guard, and obviously had to use haki to make Aokiji's lip bleed, and to cause any sort of damage. Yet Aokiji simply reformed afterwards and only had a bleeding lip. This was after getting caught off guard and being hit by a haki imbued tackle, which still barely fazed him.

So what would Law do that could possibly oneshot an off guard Akainu??

Akainu makes Law his bitch, one way or another. We were talking about getting caught off guard like how Jozu did it to Aokiji, or how Aokiji did it to Jozu later right??  

Unless it is the scenario where Akainu is paralyzed, sleeping, and cannot move, and is not expecting Law, then no, Law can't one shot him in a situation where he catches him off guard.


----------



## Shinthia (Mar 4, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> Uh no, WB was not even going forth to fight yet. He was still relaying orders. Don't you get it? Squard isn't a DF user. Even though we all know haki reacts as a good defense against both DF attacks or non DF attacks, Squard stabbed him because he wasn't expecting it from him.
> 
> Explain then, how despite Ace caught WB off guard, WB still punked him. His CoO was obviously automatic, unless u think he was pretending to sleep.
> 
> ...



I explained and stated my reason many times. If u want to see just re-read the whole thread.

Ace:
When Ace attacked WB in his sleep. WB was not off guard. He woke up just b4 Ace attacked him. Re-read it and u will see.

U asked this same question b4 and i answered it.
Marco's haki was strong enough to hit and send other 2 logia Admiral flying (specially Kizaru in 1 vs 1 fight) b4 but why it did not work against off guard Akaino ?  Cause ,Ace just died in front of them , this (may) cause their haki (will power) to decrease or they could not concentrate on it.

R u seriously comparing Jozu's diamond with Ope Ope no mi. Jozu could not one shoot Crocodile but even preTS Law can one shoot Croc. Why ? its not strength its DF power. Its not Law that one shoot its his DF that one shoot. (btw, Jozu > > > > > > > > > PreTS Law)

For the last time, talking about *caught* off guard. That means the victim has already got *caught*.  Law already made contact . If its logia than with MES and if not with cut. Its so so simple. 

I know u r DD fan but dont underrate Law just because u dont like him. Law is hex . Law can do thing which even the WSM , WB could not do.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 4, 2013)

@Doflamingo. Current Law obviously can't. But future Law? who knows.

The thing is, people don't know what it means to be up against a swordsman ( Law isn't a pure swordsman I know, and I know that you know what it means, just saying in general ). Being up against a swordsman means, you cannot have your guard down for one sec, if you do that against a high level swordsman, you're done. An example, Aokiji vs WB, in their little skirmish, Jozu steps in and sneak attack Aokiji causing him to bleed.

If that was Shanks for example instead of Jozu, Aokiji would have been done for, or at least, seriously seriously injured. Jozu attacks with fists, shoulder, whatever. a sneak attack from him would just knock people down, but a swordsman is different, you'll be cut in half if you let your guard down.


----------



## Heretic (Mar 4, 2013)

In a one V. one match, Akainu would clear Marco with about mid diff, maybe a tiny bit more. He'd clear Jozu with the lower end of mid diff, and about higher end of low diff for Vista. Haki is the deciding factor in these fights against super logias, not so much the skill or strength that would be invaluable for the WB commanders otherwise.

I don't recall Marco bypassing an Admiral's logia + haki defenses even once in the war, and Vista either. Jozu got Aokiji only when he was attacking Whitebeard, which meant he was probably focusing haki into his haki moreso than his defenses. I'd say overall:
Marco could bypass Akainu's defenses 30% of the time. Jozu can bypass about 20% of the time, and Vista could bypass about 10% of the time. Any other commander has a 0-5% chance IMO. Overall, Akainu is significantly stronger and his haki is greater. That said, the lower commanders and the numbers here will give openings, increasing the commanders' hit rates IMO.

Scenario 1: Akainu VS Marco & Vista

Akainu high diff, maybe a tiny bit higher.

This will be a difficult battle for Akainu even though he is a good bit about them. If you wanted to look at tiers, Akainu is either higher end of mid top tier or lower end of high top tier. Vista is probably the lowest top tier we've seen, and Marco is barely into mid top tier. Together, after a while, they'll start to land hits here and there, though it'll take a bit of wearing Akainu down and even a bit of timing and luck. But still, I'd say Akainu can take this because even when the duo do bypass his defenses with hits, he'd tank them and keep gunning, like how he did with WB. Vista will fall first, and then it'll be a gruelingly long battle before Marco's regen is fully reached and he's beaten. Akainu high diff. For the record, I'd say Mihawk could probably mid diff Vista, and Akainu could high diff Jozu and Vista too. 

Scenario 2: Akainu VS Marco, Jozu, Vista

WB trio mid-high diff.

Adding Jozu is too much, clearly. The first two could fight admirals, even a bit, no matter how ineffective it was, and the third could fight Mihawk, an admiral level opponent. For the record, I'd say Mihawk could probably mid diff Vista, and Akainu could lower end high diff Jozu and Vista too. But all three will cause more openings and it'll be harder for Akainu to even KO one when its a constant barrage. WB trio with mid-high diff. Vista may fall in the battle too, though I doubt it.

Scenario 3: Akainu VS Marco, Vista, Crocodile, Lower Commanders(divisions 6-16)

WB pirates high diff.

Though Akainu did well in the war against them with help (he must have held them off at least briefly on his own before Marine help came and he fried at least Curiel) and some are nigh-worthless with their inability to bypass his defenses, the sheer numbers probably meant that not all the commanders could attack at once, which means some might have held back and let the other commanders do the fighting. This'll be a long, grueling battle, but the commanders can attack in waves like they did against Kizaru, and slowly but surely, they'll give Marco and Vista the openings needed to win. They can also stall for time to let Marco or Vista recuperate a bit. Like the all the other admiral battles, it'll be really long just because of the logia defense, but it makes the most sense that Akainu would lose this battle.

*If Akainu could beat this group, then that means about two admirals would be more than enough to fully solo a Yonkou core crew. Throw in another admiral for the captain, and it would mean three Yonkou could beat a full Yonkou team. Though it makes sense that three admirals are comparable to a Yonkou fleet level power, that's a pretty extreme power scale since the Marines could easily solo the enemies like that. So its more realistic that the core crew's majority can beat an admiral, especially when two monster members are fighting.*

Scenario 4: Akainu VS Marco, Vista, Jozu, Croc, Lower Commanders

Same as last one, WB pirates win mid diff.

This is just overwhelming against Akainu, and I'd say the commanders could take this without losing anyone, whereas in most of the other scenarios, they probably would lose one or two. I don't think many people believe Akainu would actually have beaten the commanders together at the war, do they?

Scenario 5: Akainu VS Marco, Vista, Jozu, Thatch, Croc, Teach, Ace, Lower Commanders

WB pirates with low-mid diff.

Ace, Teach, and Thatch are probably the best outside the WB monster trio of Marco, Jozu, and Vista. I don't think they're as worthless against admirals as most think, but even they'd only have a 5% or so chance of bypassing an admiral. Ace doesn't against Akainu though, but against other admirals, it'd be fine. Regardless, this is even more stacked than last time and I'd say the extra two push this one to the higher end of low difficulty.

Scenario 6: Akainu VS Jozu, Vista, Teach, Ace (No Thatch, he's featless anyways)

Akainu high diff win.

I think Akainu could probably high diff Jozu and Vista together, and Ace's magma weakness is a big handicap here. If it was Aokiji, I'd say he barely loses since Ace could effect him. Yes, I see Jozu, Teach, and Ace together as a greater threat than Marco.

Scenario 7: Akainu VS Jozu, Vista, Teach, Ace, Lower Commanders (No Thatch)

Akainu extreme diff.

Akainu is just highly effective against lots of weaker people. These lower commanders are around current Smoker's level, give or take, who is far below Doflamingo, who is sizeably below Aokiji. Together they can't do too much more.



I'm curious - how do people think these battles would turn out if it was Garp, Sengoku, WB, or Rayleigh fighting instead of Akainu?


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 5, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> I explained and stated my reason many times. If u want to see just re-read the whole thread.
> 
> Ace:
> When Ace attacked WB in his sleep. WB was not off guard. He woke up just b4 Ace attacked him. Re-read it and u will see.
> ...



I never said I don't like Law lol, it's just that you wank him to the high heavens. How the fuck can Pre TS Law one shot croc? Croc is a logia, if he tried one shotting Croc, he'll just put himself back together lol.

Forget it man, no sense debating this since you've missed my point again. I wasn't even talking about strength, and I acknowledge Law's DF power and its nature.
LOL what? When did I even compare Croc to Law?

 I was talking about how Aokiji, despite being caught off guard, still negated a lot of Jozu's damage with either his haki, or his logia properties. I was saying how since Law's haki should be weaker than Jozu's, he wouldn't be able to pull off the same feat, whether he caught an admiral off guard or not. Your speaking as if Law's powers work on anyone and everyone and that haki isn't even a factor for him, when it was proven in the fight against Vergo that he needed to have superior haki to Vergo to bypass his defenses and full Armaments form.

Uh no, being caught off guard means being distracted or letting your guard down. Jozu was caught off guard but he almost reacted quick enough, but he didn't, and that cost him. 

And the whole Marco & Vista not having enough will=haki at that moment is pure fan fic. They might not have been in the right mindset, but we don't even know if that is how haki even works. 



As for the last line,


----------



## Shinthia (Mar 5, 2013)

i really cant believe this kind of unreasonable response is coming from u. Dont let one debate get the best of u.



Doflαmingo said:


> As for the last line,


what so funny about this sentence ?





> Law can do thing which even the WSM , WB could not do


 share it. i wanna laugh too.



> I never said I don't like Law lol, it's just that you wank him to the high heavens. How the fuck can Pre TS Law one shot croc? Croc is a logia, if he tried one shotting Croc, he'll just put himself back together lol.



A hakiless pre Gear Luffy can beat Croc and also u cant say for sure Law did not have haki (Sh did not had it ,thats why they needed training, which was not the case for other SN) or vv. There is more than 1 way to deal with Croc (water,blood,haki)



> LOL what? When did I even compare Croc to Law?
> 
> I was talking about how Aokiji, despite being caught off guard, still negated a lot of Jozu's damage with either his haki, or his logia properties.



Crocodile (does not have haki ) vs Jozu and Aokij vs Jozu:
Can u see any difference ?



> Forget it man, no sense debating this since you've missed my point again. I wasn't even talking about strength, and I acknowledge Law's DF power and its nature.
> I was saying how since Law's haki should be weaker than Jozu's, he wouldn't be able to pull off the same feat, whether he caught an admiral off guard or not. Your speaking as if Law's powers work on anyone and everyone and that haki isn't even a factor for him, when it was proven in the fight against Vergo that he needed to have superior haki to Vergo to bypass his defenses and full Armaments form.


U r so obsessed with Powerlevel. Its not DBZ . Its OP. Here nature of ur ability will give u huge advantage.
Lets give u an Law-less example , so that u will stop it with the "WANK" word.

S1: Luffy is sleeping and a Shadow Asgard Moria punched (island splitting) Luffy in his balls .
S2: Garp is sleeping and a Shadow Asgard Moria punched (island splitting) Garp in his balls.
Who will get hurt . Luffy or Garp ?


Seriously, Vergo example ? Seriously ? 
Law break through his full body CoA defense and CoA demon bamboo head on.  Vergo was nowhere near off guard 


> Uh no, being caught off guard means being distracted or letting your guard down. Jozu was caught off guard but he almost reacted quick enough, but he didn't, and that cost him.


For the last time :
Being Off Guard and *Catching* Off Guard r 2 different thing.
Jozu let his guard down/was *off guard* when he looked at WB then Aokiji said something and Jozu tried to react but it was too let as Jozu was already *caught *



> And the whole Marco & Vista not having enough will=haki at that moment is pure fan fic. They might not have been in the right mindset, but we don't even know if that is how haki even works.


so ans my previous question then

Marco's haki was strong enough to hit and *send other 2 logia Admiral flying* (specially Kizaru in 1 vs 1 fight) b4 but *why it did not work against off guard Akaino *?



And yes reply every to quote , point by point. Not just the point what u wanna reply. U have done this for the last couple of post.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 5, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> 1. i really cant believe this kind of unreasonable response is coming from u. Dont let one debate get the best of u.
> 
> 
> 2. what so funny about this sentence ? share it. i wanna laugh too.
> ...



1. Sorry you feel that way

2. Nah it's just because I really don't think Law can one shot any top tier whom is off guard, that's all.

3. I know there is more than one way to deal with Croc, but you have no proof that Law had haki before the TS, and we're talking about Pre TS Law one shotting Croc while he's off guard here. I have no doubt that Pre TS Law was definitely stronger than Croc and would beat him in a fight since Alabasta Luffy>Croc, but for him to one shot him? I don't know man, especially when cutting Croc is useless since he is a logia, unless Pre TS Law applied haki, which you can't really prove that he had it back then.

4. I wasn't comparing Jozu VS Croc to Jozu VS Aokiji though. I was comparing what Jozu did to Aokiji while the latter was off guard, and what current Law could have been able to do in the same shoes. 

5. Nah, in my previous post, I already acknowledged that Law can do a lot of shit that others can't due to the nature of his devil fruit. I fully acknowledge that. It's just that I don't think he can one shot a top tier who's guard is off, even if one shotting people is the basis of his abilities, simply due to the fact that I believe that people like Akainu do have a CoA defense by reflex, and I proved it. 

And of course Garp would be hurt instead of Luffy, due to Luffy's rubber, but the thing is CoA and haki makes all the difference. If Moriah, whom is the basis of this comparison of yours, had haki, then it wouldn't make any difference whether Luffy had rubber immunity against blunt damage at all. The same applies to Law's abilities. If his CoA can't overpower someone else's CoA, or bypass that person's CoA defenses(this person's haki has to be superior to Law's), then Law ain't cutting shit.

6. I wasn't using Vergo as an example of being off guard lol, I know he wasn't off guard. I was using his fight with Law as proof that Law's CoA needs to be superior to someone else's in order to cut them, as he needs to bypass their CoA defenses for his Ope Ope no mi's cut to do its thing. Which means that if someone like Akainu who does have CoA defense by reflex, or the situation where Jozu was definitely arming his CoA against Aokiji but was one shotted by him when he was distracted, it means that Law can't do the same as Aokiji did to Jozu, or one shot an off guard Akainu, that's all. Now you can say that this CoA by reflex doesn't exist, but there is more evidence for than against its placement. Also, if your definition of being caught off guard is that of what happened to Jozu, then it helps my case as well, since I'm pretty sure Jozu had his CoA armed the whole time against Aokiji, and him being one shotted while distracted, was simply because he couldn't react fast enough, and also because his CoA most likely isn't strong enough to break out Aokiji's ice. This coupled with the fact that Aokiji was a really bad matchup for Jozu. Diamond is impenetrable, but Aokiji doesn't need to break through Jozu's body to defeat him. Freezing Jozu and incapacitating him was all he needed to do, as using his ice to beat Jozu doesn't require him to break through the diamond. Freezing Jozu's diamond body would add weight to his already large fortitude, making it all the more easier to subdue him. So, of course, not everything is about powerlevels. As the above indicated, Haki mastery, distraction, and matchups are all factors. Thing is, since Jozu was likely arming himself with CoA the whole time, Law wouldn't have been able to one shot him if he were in Aokiji's position within that situation, even though Jozu was caught off guard. Why? Because Law isn't Aokiji, which means that his CoA isn't above Jozu's, which also means that he won't be able to cut him. I'm pretty sure you know what I am getting at.

7. And if Akainu was in Jozu's position, while Law was in Aokiji's position, Law still wouldn't have been able to one shot him. Unless I missed your point. 

8. Sure I'll answer your question. 

Marco clashed Kizaru for a brief period, but did he inflict any injury upon him? I mean sure, he managed to push him back a bit, which is very impressive, but he failed to inflict any damage. His haki was only good enough to allow him to make contact with Kizaru and touch him, but the kick didn't do anything.

As for Marco kicking Aokiji, it's the same thing. His haki allowed him to touch Aokiji, who would have been untouchable like other Logia under normal circumstances, and he managed to kick and sent Aokiji flying to a wall....Yet it practically caused no damage to the Admiral.

Remember when Luffy fought Aokiji on Long Ring Long Island? During the fight, before he used Gomu Gomu no Storm, he kicked Aokiji and the kick sent Aokiji flying in the air. Yet it did no damage whatsoever. Now of course, Luffy had no haki at the time and Marco did, but the results of those two kicks were pretty much the same. Both kicks sent Aokiji flying, but it practically didn't faze him. Jozu did a better job than Marco in terms of fazing Aokiji, cause he actually made him bleed. 

So in short, none of Marco's attacks, kicks, or talon slashes really had any effect on any of the Admirals he clashed with. Being able to keep up, fight on par with and against them are very good feats, and shows us that this guy is definitely good enough to fight them on an even ballpark for a while, and is more than capable enough to stall them, and that is good enough for someone who has to fight under the circumstances of distractions, scuffles going on, and clashes occuring everywhere in an open war.

I'd say that even though Marco would still lose to any Admiral  in a fight, he would last longer in a one on one fight without any distractions around him.


----------



## Shinthia (Mar 5, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> 1 to 8



1. 

2.I  don't think Law can one shot any top tier *whom is off guard* , I think Law can one shot any top tier who get *caught *off guard. There is a huge difference.

3.I said even preTS Law *can* one shoot Croc , i did not say Law will one shoot Croc. There is a slight different ? PreTS Law *can* one shoot Croc if Law cover his hand with water/blood (thats assuming preTS Law did not had haki)

4.


> despite being caught off guard, *still negated a lot of Jozu's damage* with either his haki, or his logia properties


I just response to that as Croc was in the same situation and did not get KOed even without any haki defense. So, haki defense did not neglected any damage because there was no haki defense at all  and there was no logia advantage there as Jozu can use haki.

5. 





> Akainu do have a CoA defense by reflex, and I proved it.



I dont think u can ever prove anyone that CoA is automatic. But reflex is another thing. By reflex Akaino can magmafist Law in any situation because *Law is not fast enough to catch Akaino off guard*. But we r not talking about that. We are talking about *What If* Law do *catch* (catch is the key word here) them off guard. Then its a one shoot and Akaino/Shanks lose his heart (MES) . Despite having  10 days worth of stamina.

also u did not ans is it Luffy or Garp ? lol

6. see no 5

7. Actually u did miss my point. Its not about positioning , its about WHAT IF law do make a contact while they r off guard.

8. From ur ans i have just 2 question

8.1) Why was not Akaino send flying when other 2 Admiral did ?

8.2) So, if Marco's attack cant do anything to an Admiral even in off guard position. Why do u think Marco will give Akaino Mid-High Diff ? Should it not be a stomp based on ur ans ?


Doflαmingo said:


> *Ur First Post/OP:*
> I believe  Akainu can mid-high diff Marco in a one on one fight.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Mar 5, 2013)

It's true, Law could one shot Crocodile but jozu can't cuz of his stupid DF
Jozu >>>>>> Law but law can one shot people that jozu can't


----------



## Pink Matter (Mar 5, 2013)

Scenario 1: Akainu with extreme difficulty
Scenario 2: Akainu loses with high difficulty
Scenario 3: Same as scenario 2
Scenario 4: Same as above
Scenario 5: same as above
Scenario 6: Toss up
Scenario 7: Toss up


----------

