# Pokemon Mechanics



## Negrito (Jan 16, 2014)

Hey guys. 

I would like to ask you your opinion on some of the Pokemon game mechanics and if they're a good way to balance the games.

The first question is about the Natures. What are your thoughts on them? Is the plus to one stat and the minus to another a good balanced mechanic? How would you improve them? Would they need improvement?


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## Jimin (Jan 16, 2014)

Natures are quite annoying tbph. It takes forever to get the one you want. 

I enjoyed how critical hits worked in generation 1 though. Victreebel and Venusaur were great in the RBY days. :>


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## Xiammes (Jan 16, 2014)

Natures are great and pretty balanced in my opinion, it allows you to maximize the effectiveness of a pokemon.

Crits should never go back to the way of Gen 1, Deoxy's A would be a monster.

Only balancing thing I would do is make normal poison(not toxic) halve special attack just like Burn, Special attackers are way to safe offensively.


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## Platinum (Jan 16, 2014)

We don't need statuses to be even more annoying.

And natures are fine, if anything I would replace the neutral ones with ones that modify HP instead. Makes no sense that all stats except HP can be boosted by natures.


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## BiNexus (Jan 16, 2014)

Xiammes said:


> *Natures are great and pretty balanced in my opinion, it allows you to maximize the effectiveness of a pokemon.*
> 
> Crits should never go back to the way of Gen 1, Deoxy's A would be a monster.
> 
> *Only balancing thing I would do is make normal poison(not toxic) halve special attack just like Burn, Special attackers are way to safe offensively*.



Agree with the bolded. I think it should be applied to regular poison, and not badly poisoned (such as that received from Toxic). This would give regular poison a reason to exist, diversify what you can do with TSpikes (i.e. do I lay 1 layer and weaken their special attacker? or lay 2 and kill them faster), as well as justifying a move, like Toxic, solely for poisoning the target regularly.

I, myself, have been of the opinion for a while that crits should just be removed. 

@Platinum, HP has a boost of its own and doesn't function like other stats. You'd have more HP than Def even if the Pokemon was neutral, had its HP and Def base stats the same, EVs, IVs, etc. But the neutral natures just _being_ there is a bit weird. They don't really serve a purpose...


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## Platinum (Jan 16, 2014)

Physical attackers have all the priority moves and special moves have been nerfed in this gen. I don't really think there is as big of a gulf now as there was. 

And I know HP runs on a different scale, but it still makes no sense that it functions the exact same way as the other stats but doesn't have boosting natures. It's just odd and never made much sense.


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## Xiammes (Jan 16, 2014)

> Physical attackers have all the priority moves and special moves have been nerfed in this gen. I don't really think there is as big of a gulf now as there was.



Priority is nice, but that can be fixed by making some special priority moves. 

Special attackers have a better move pool, better coverage, there moves are still more powerful on average, no recoil for the most powerful moves, and don't have a status that decreases their special attack stat like physical attackers. Not counting there are moves like secret sword/psyshock/psystrike that allows special attackers to hit pokemon on their defensive stat, making them them incredible hard to wall.

I'm not saying they need a big nerf, but allowing normal poison to cripple special attackers would help balance things and make poison a much more viable type.


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## Platinum (Jan 16, 2014)

Everyone and their mother can learn toxic, that would table flip the scales way in physical's favor. Also you will find far more special walls than you do physical on average.  I do think they should introduce a special attacker version of intimidate though.

Also priority is a far bigger deal than you are letting on. Priority is what makes some pokemon viable, and others trash. Physical attacks may have recoil, but their equivalents on the special side only have 70% accuracy, and most will take the recoil over uncertainty every time. There is a discrepancy between the two, but it is not as big as it used to be.


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## BiNexus (Jan 16, 2014)

Xiammes said:


> Priority is nice, but that can be fixed by making some special priority moves.
> 
> Special attackers have a better move pool, better coverage, there moves are still more powerful on average, no recoil for the most powerful moves, and don't have a status that decreases their special attack stat like physical attackers. Not counting there are moves like secret sword/psyshock/psystrike that allows special attackers to hit pokemon on their defensive stat, making them them incredible hard to wall.
> 
> I'm not saying they need a big nerf, but allowing normal poison to cripple special attackers would help balance things and make poison a much more viable type.



And make things like Poison Point and Poison Touch moderately uselful, rather than worthless.

I never really thought about it before, but I really like how they set up the higher end of both types of moves. Special moves, such as Pyscho Boost, Draco Meteor go higher (with the exceptions of Explosion/SDestruct/GImpact, which are, coincidentally, normal oh and V-Create) than physical but they're set up in such a way that they are actually weaker when used twice in a row. Continuing in this trend, moves like Focus Blast, Thunder, Hurricane and Blizzard, thanks to their 70% accuracy (and if the latter 3 aren't used under their appropriate weather), work out to only being able to hit ~50% of the time twice in succession, making physical hits not only more reliable, but, essentially, _stronger_ on average in the long run. This trend continues with Fire Blast and Hydro Pump, but they have higher chances of hitting twice in a row(~73%). This is the drawback special moves bear; physical moves suffer from stat drops and recoil, but have the accuracy factor on their side.

These attributes are fair I feel, and, especially with the special nerf, I don't think it would be right for any physical moves to break the 120/130 benchmark just yet. The only things I will say is that the poison idea is good, but potentially adding a physical no-miss move that contends with Aura Sphere is necessary. And maybe one or two moves that hit the special side, but, heck, doesn't Sacred Sword and Chip Away kind of serve that role physical attackers?

Priority would be nice to see more on the special side, however, a lot of the special attackers are faster than physical ones, so it's less of a factor that they can take advantage of. Maybe priority is something they feel should be predominantly physical?  I'd like a special priority Fire move though


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## Xiammes (Jan 16, 2014)

> Everyone and their mother can learn toxic, that would table flip the scales way in physical's favor. Also you will find far more special walls than you do physical on average. I do think they should introduce a special attacker version of intimidate though.



Not toxic, normal poison, you know the one that only does 12% hp damage at the end of the turn?

Priority is a big deal, it still doesn't compare to the versatility of special attackers. Aside from Focus Blast, what is a common special attack that is below 80% accuracy? Thunder is only used with rain support otherwise most people go with thunderbolt.

This isn't even counting that moves like Brave Bird/Flareblitz and other powerful recoil moves have absolutely terrible distribution and most physical attacks don't get the opportunity to take advantage of it.


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## Platinum (Jan 16, 2014)

Xiammes said:


> Not toxic, normal poison, you know the one that only does 12% hp damage at the end of the turn?
> 
> Priority is a big deal, it still doesn't compare to the versatility of special attackers. Aside from Focus Blast, what is a common special attack that is below 80% accuracy? Thunder is only used with rain support otherwise most people go with thunderbolt.
> 
> This isn't even counting that moves like Brave Bird/Flareblitz and other powerful recoil moves have absolutely terrible distribution and most physical attacks don't get the opportunity to take advantage of it.



Gamefreak would never do that, because they would feel it would make it unnecessarily convoluted. They would probably have to invent a new status for that.

And you kind of made my point for me. All of specials super attacks like thunder and hurricane are never used because they are unreliable unless you are running some niche gravity team or weather. And the standard boltbeam combo got it's power reduced this gen as did hydro pump. Brave Bird and Flare blitz are used by every pokemon that gets them because the recoil is worth it for perfect accuracy. And priority is a huge deal as it makes the typical frail special sweeper irrelevant. It is why no one runs megazam over normal alakazam because speed means nothing when aegislash is just going to shadow sneak you to death. 

Again special is still the better attacking method, but the gap is nowhere near where it was.


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## sworder (Jan 16, 2014)

Most sweepers are physical because of dragon dance. Unless quiver dance gets a whole lot more distribution, hard to see that changing soon

Besides, accuracy is king. Most people use flamethrower, ice beam, thunderbolt, scald, etc because they don't miss. Those moves are weaker than earthquake, close combat, outrage, stone edge, and whatever else are the most common physical moves

Special isn't really that great to need a nerf


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## Yami Munesanzun (Jan 16, 2014)

I've always been of the mind that Poison-status should reduce Defense/Sp. Defense.


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## BiNexus (Jan 16, 2014)

Platinum said:


> Gamefreak would never do that, because they would feel it would make it *unnecessarily convoluted.* They would probably have to invent a new status for that.
> 
> And you kind of made my point for me. All of specials super attacks like thunder and hurricane are never used because they are unreliable unless you are running some niche gravity team or weather. And the standard boltbeam combo got it's power reduced this gen as did hydro pump. Brave Bird and Flare blitz are used by every pokemon that gets them because the recoil is worth it for perfect accuracy. And priority is a huge deal as it makes the typical frail special sweeper irrelevant. It is why no one runs megazam over normal alakazam because speed means nothing when aegislash is just going to shadow sneak you to death.
> 
> Again special is still the better attacking method, but the gap is nowhere near where it was.



I don't think so. As it stands now there are no upsides of simply giving an opponent regular poison. Sure, it takes 12% per turn, but it does nothing else. It can be worked around with recover moves and it doesn't do anything other than the whittling effect. Hell, before Gen VI, the most used poison move was Toxic, but with the introduction of Fairies, Poison attacks have a bit of a niche. 

Sometimes, getting regularly poisoned is considered a boon; you can't get any other status; if you have guts it's a free boost with the same "clock" as a burn. It makes less sense to _have_ it in its present form than to tweak it in some way. Inventing a new status wouldn't make sense, when you have a perfectly legitimate one to tweak. It also makes sense stylistically; different poisons having different effects.

And no one use MegaZam because it's still frail as shit and loses Magic Guard.  Regular Zam + MG + Sash/LO are way better.


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## Negrito (Jan 16, 2014)

Edward Cullen said:


> I enjoyed how critical hits worked in generation 1 though. Victreebel and Venusaur were great in the RBY days. :>





Xiammes said:


> Crits should never go back to the way of Gen 1, Deoxy's A would be a monster.



I'm not familiar with how crits worked on Gen 1, what was good/bad about them?

How would you guys improve the way to obtain a Nature? Would having certain Pokemon lean more towards a specific Nature be a good solution?

I also think making normal Poison affect Special Attack would be a good balancing method. Since we already have Burn doing so for the Attack stat.

Or may be make Burn affect both Attacking stats while Poison affects both Defensive stats?


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## Xiammes (Jan 16, 2014)

Negrito said:


> I'm not familiar with how crits worked on Gen 1, what was good/bad about them?



Crits were determined by pokemon speed, so the faster the pokemon the more critical hits you would land. This would give pokemon like Tarous(King of Gen 1 OU) a 25% crit chance and Mewtwo had a 30% crit chance. Also crits would ignore any attack boosts, meaning you had situations where getting a crit would do less damage then a normal attack.


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## BiNexus (Jan 16, 2014)

Negrito said:


> I'm not familiar with how crits worked on Gen 1, what was good/bad about them?
> 
> How would you guys improve the way to obtain a Nature? Would having certain Pokemon lean more towards a specific Nature be a good solution?
> 
> ...



Crits were based off of your speed stat in Gen I. So, at the time, things like Alakazam, Gengar and Mewtwo got crits 4 dayz.

I don't think having certain species leaning towards a certain nature is all that great; natures are fine the way they are. What do you not like about them?

Poison would be OP if it affected both defensive stats and everyone would try to use TSpikes and Toxic.


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## Xiammes (Jan 16, 2014)

Gen 1 would have been a nightmare to play competitively. Now retrospectively its fun metagame on showdown.


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## Totally not a cat (Jan 17, 2014)

How would it be if confusion prevented a pokemon from being switched out, that way confusion would have purpose outside of parfuse, and may migrate to toxfuse. Or infatuation not being removed by switching out and lowering physical defense 1 stage (thus giving comboing with confusion).


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## TheCupOfBrew (Jan 17, 2014)

You guys want added effect to poison?


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## Totally not a cat (Jan 17, 2014)

Considering is the most useless status, yeah.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Jan 17, 2014)

Most useless? I mean no-one cares about poison,unless it's toxic poison. Adding extra effects to that status only seems like a cheap gimmick instead of something the game mechanics need. The only mechanic that should honestly be changed is the sleep one if you're not using the one where the sleep counters stay constant, even upon switching.


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## Xiammes (Jan 17, 2014)

Iron Man said:


> Most useless? I mean no-one cares about poison,unless it's toxic poison. Adding extra effects to that status only seems like a cheap gimmick instead of something the game mechanics need. The only mechanic that should honestly be changed is the sleep one if you're not using the one where the sleep counters stay constant, even upon switching.



Its easily the most useless, burn does the same damage and cripples physical attackers, toxic does more damage after 3 turns, paralysis reduces speed to 1/4 and has a 25% chance to make the target immobile, sleep/freeze makes the target unable to do anything.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Jan 17, 2014)

No one is going to try to use poison just to reduce a sp atk stat. Especially when toxic is infinitely better. There's no need whatsoever to add onto current statuses. Again except for sleep resetting counters.


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## Xiammes (Jan 17, 2014)

Iron Man said:


> No one is going to try to use poison just to reduce a sp atk stat. Especially when toxic is infinitely better. There's no need whatsoever to add onto current statuses. Again except for sleep resetting counters.



I think you are really underestimating how useful it would be to cripple special attackers.

It would be a buff to poison types and poison type attackers and helps bridge the gap between physical attackers and special attackers. 

Its not a game changer, but it will add a new element to the game and give the type more utility.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Jan 17, 2014)

There aren't even reliable ways to get poison set except one layer of toxic spikes


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## Xiammes (Jan 17, 2014)

Iron Man said:


> There aren't even reliable ways to get poison set except one layer of toxic spikes



There is a lot of moves out there that can inflict regular poison, they aren't used because poison is a terrible attacking type.

Gunk Shot - 30% chance
Poison Jab - 30% chance
Poison Gas - 90% accuracy (more accurate then Will-o-wisp)
Poison Powder - 75% accuracy 
Sludge Bomb - 30% chance
Sludge Wave - 10% chance(base 95 power)


Note that Poison Jab/Sludge Bomb has great distribution


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## Yami Munesanzun (Jan 17, 2014)

Iron Man said:


> You guys want added effect to poison?



regular poison.

defense or special defense.

because poisons/venoms attack the nervous system n' shit.

y'know.



speaking of which, I'm actually retro'ing right now.

Nidoqueen herpderp - lvl 31
Charmeleon - lvl 31
Gyarados - lvl 31

I need a fourth so I can go from there, but I can't decide.


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## Tutpup (Jan 17, 2014)

Imo natures are kind of OP. 90% of the time you get a good nature (10%+ in a good stat and -10% in a stat you would never have to use). Due to this I think that a nature should give +10% in 1 stat and lower 2 stats by 10%. This would also make neutral natures such as ''serious'' much better.


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## Xiammes (Jan 17, 2014)

Tutpup said:


> Imo natures are kind of OP. 90% of the time you get a good nature (10%+ in a good stat and -10% in a stat you would never have to use). Due to this I think that a nature should give +10% in 1 stat and lower 2 stats by 10%. This would also make neutral natures such as ''serious'' much better.



Actually this gives me a idea.

+10% in one stat but -5% in two stats, but that would require a major reworking of the nature system.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Jan 17, 2014)

Xiammes said:


> There is a lot of moves out there that can inflict regular poison, they aren't used because poison is a terrible attacking type.
> 
> Gunk Shot - 30% chance
> Poison Jab - 30% chance
> ...



Bote most chances to poison are grosly under 50% meaning you'll only get to hit posion 20-25% of the time hardly worth trying over toxic.


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## Xiammes (Jan 17, 2014)

Iron Man said:


> Bote most chances to poison are grosly under 50% meaning you'll only get to hit posion 20-25% of the time hardly worth trying over toxic.



You know there are people who willing use scald over surf, just because of the 30% burn chance. Scald is a incredible move because of its burn chance, you can't tell me you haven't heard the groaning about how scald is OP. Not counting the fact that water is a great attacking type

Toxic is more useful because of its distribution and the ability to cripple walls, thats not going to change, however this adds a new element to poison types and poison type attacks.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Jan 17, 2014)

It frankly would be a stupid, and under utilized mechanic.


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## Xiammes (Jan 17, 2014)

Iron Man said:


> It frankly would be a stupid, and under utilized mechanic.



You would be amazed how certain tweeks can completely change the usage of something in the metagame. Knock-Off is a prime example, its become one of the most used moves in the metagame simple because of the damage buff.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Jan 17, 2014)

Touch?, maybe I could be swayed.


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## BiNexus (Jan 17, 2014)

Yami Munesanzun said:


> regular poison.
> 
> defense or special defense.
> 
> ...



Rhyhorn or Eevee.

I think changing the Natures system to 2 reductions is an unnecessary complication. I'm not sure if the natures system should be changed, but I don't think I've ever seen one I think would work better than what we have now.


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## Negrito (Jan 17, 2014)

BiNexus said:


> Crits were based off of your speed stat in Gen I. So, at the time, things like Alakazam, Gengar and Mewtwo got crits 4 dayz.
> 
> I don't think having certain species leaning towards a certain nature is all that great; natures are fine the way they are. What do you not like about them?
> 
> Poison would be OP if it affected both defensive stats and everyone would try to use TSpikes and Toxic.



I see about Gen 1 Crits.

I have no issues with them per say, just wondering what the general consensus about them is.

Well just normal Poison, badly Poison would drop the stat modifier for progressive damage. Also if something like that where to be implemented i believe the regular stat drop would be over powered.

Say Burn now cripples both Attacking stats then  the stat drop wouldn't be 50% for both, may be around 30%. Same could be done with Poison but the drop should be a little less then the Burn one, maybe 20-25%?



Xiammes said:


> Actually this gives me a idea.
> 
> +10% in one stat but -5% in two stats, but that would require a major reworking of the nature system.



I think this would be a good idea and I agree that a major rework would be needed.

GF would have to come up with more Natures to give people the choice of which stat to drop accordingly with the stat they want to raise. Also a reverse of the +/- would be in order as well.

E.i.

Adamant = +10% in attack. -5% Special Attack and -5% Special Defense.
Some new Nature = +5% Special Attack and +5% Special Defense. -10% Attack.


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## Platinum (Jan 17, 2014)

Oh god no fuck that.

Breeding natures is annoying enough currently without 35 new ones to worry.


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## Negrito (Jan 17, 2014)

Platinum said:


> Oh god no fuck that.
> 
> Breeding natures is annoying enough currently without 35 new ones to worry.



I understand your concerns with breeding and how annoying it would be.

But there could always be solutions, one that would make even breeding them now better.

I'm not adept at breeding but how about a held item for each Nature?

Regardless of what Natures the parents have if a parent is holding say an "adamant band" the offspring would always come out with the Adamant Nature.

That in and of itself would make breeding the Natures you want very easy; you wouldn't have to spend an absurd amount of time trying to get the right one.


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## Yami Munesanzun (Jan 17, 2014)

Remember when Poison-type moves were super effective against Bug types?

Remember when Bug-type moves were super effective against Poison types?

Professor Oak remembers. No he doesn't.


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## Bioness (Jan 23, 2014)

Xiammes said:


> Gen 1 would have been a nightmare to play competitively. Now retrospectively its fun metagame on showdown.



Quoting because of how true this image is. I frequently use this as a weapon to anyone who says the 1st generation was good.



Xiammes said:


> Natures are great and pretty balanced in my opinion, it allows you to maximize the effectiveness of a pokemon.
> 
> Crits should never go back to the way of Gen 1, Deoxy's A would be a monster.
> 
> Only balancing thing I would do is make normal poison(not toxic) halve special attack just like Burn, Special attackers are way to safe offensively.



Completely agree, and you are evil for suggesting generation 1 crit mechanics.


Platinum said:


> Oh god no fuck that.
> 
> Breeding natures is annoying enough currently without 35 new ones to worry.



With an Everstone you pass down natures with a 100% chance.


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## Platinum (Jan 23, 2014)

I'm aware of that Bioness .

You still have to catch a ditto or a synchornizer with the respective nature which was what I was getting at.


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