# Parents pray instead of seeking medical help, girl dies



## batanga (Mar 26, 2008)

> WESTON, Wis. ? An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.
> 
> Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.
> 
> ...



Yaaaay... -1 to god.


----------



## neko-sennin (Mar 26, 2008)

Somehow, these accounts never fail to sicken me.

How can someone just _sit there doing nothing_, begging _God_ to do something when they have all the miracles of modern medicine right here on Earth? I'm not a terribly religious person, but I could see praying for someone... _after_ you take them to the fucking hospital for treatment.

There's a reason why she died. Did no one ever tell these brain-dead morons that God helps those who help themselves?


----------



## Rock Lee (Mar 26, 2008)

Those other kids should be taken away ASAP and those parents should be charged with neglect.


----------



## Cirus (Mar 26, 2008)

This proves why religion taken to extremes is wrong on all fronts, cause people always die because of it.


----------



## Jazz (Mar 26, 2008)

WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?


----------



## ShangDOh (Mar 26, 2008)

From the article:


> "They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."



No signs of abuse? Are you telling me that fucking letting a girl die from refusing to seek out proper treatment is _not_ abuse? I feel sorry for the other three kids stuck in that house.


----------



## Sasuke (Mar 26, 2008)

This disgusts me.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Mar 26, 2008)

God helps those who helps themselves. The point is to help yourself before asking for God's help


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Mar 26, 2008)

> The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.



Conclusion? Bigger nutcases than you thought.


----------



## d3l (Mar 26, 2008)

The parents didn't lack faith, they lacked reason.


----------



## Mintaka (Mar 26, 2008)

It's official.

Praying kills.


----------



## ɒiƨʜɒɿ ƚɘivoƨ (Mar 26, 2008)

That's not faith, that's fanaticism.


----------



## Longcat is Long (Mar 26, 2008)

Sigh..

Those parents are completely idiotic, and/or delusional.

Faith has no place in curing physical illnesses, and it, if at all, should be used only as a supplement to real medicine.

Picture related.


----------



## Casyle (Mar 26, 2008)

*Shakes his head*  I'd love to know where people like this get this idea that you should completely shun help from people *medicine* and only pray for help...

Guess I missed the, "Thou shalt shun human medicines." verse.


----------



## Believe It! (Mar 26, 2008)

All they had was a Bible study group. They weren't even saved. If you're not saved then your prayers for God to help you do not even reach Him. You have to pray to Jesus Christ to save you from your sins first.

However, I think that God's answer to this prayer WAS medical attention for the girl.


----------



## 2Shea (Mar 26, 2008)

Rock Lee said:


> Those other kids should be taken away ASAP and those parents should be charged with neglect.



QFT.

This is just sad, wow. And people think that religion doesn't have an adverse effect on society? Not it may not happen all the time, but still, one case is enough.

And no, I'm not trying to bash anyone or their religion at all, but this is just terrible.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Mar 26, 2008)

Giovanni Rild said:


> God helps those who helps themselves. The point is to help yourself before asking for God's help



but if i helpped myself why would i still need god's help



Mario said:


> WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?



agreed


----------



## Catterix (Mar 26, 2008)

Amazing how an example of human stupidity and ignorance so quickly boiled down to religion bashing...

*yawn*


----------



## Ennoea (Mar 26, 2008)

Sadly my parents are the same, my Father never goes to doctors, he always say's "I leave it to God". 

Even God can't cure stupidity


----------



## E (Mar 26, 2008)

so basically they blamed god for their lazyness, fucken idiots, its not God's fault


----------



## GrimaH (Mar 26, 2008)

Catterix said:


> Amazing how an example of human stupidity and ignorance so quickly boiled down to religion bashing...
> 
> *yawn*



We're getting bashed for killing another ignorant person BAAAAAAAWWW

Oh wait.
Maybe religion does have its use after all


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Mar 26, 2008)

Catterix said:


> Amazing how an example of human stupidity and ignorance so quickly boiled down to religion bashing...
> 
> *yawn*



That's the Cafe for you. Ran by atheists. I'm used to it by now


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Mar 26, 2008)

Tokoyami said:


> It's official.
> 
> Praying kills.



Nice way to insult a religion. Praying doesn't, ignorant fools like the parents kill people. Praying can help people when it comes to some people, but these people obviously have some kind of mental problem for rejecting proven science.

I don't believe in praying, but I believe it helps people at times.


----------



## Quiet Storm (Mar 26, 2008)

lol wow......


----------



## Sexta Espada (Mar 26, 2008)

The best part is Wisconsin law says that prayer like this is a reasonable form of treatment and the parents can't be prosecuted or even lose their kids because of this.


----------



## hellkitten (Mar 26, 2008)

d3leterious said:


> The parents didn't lack faith, they lacked reason.



they lacked hatred.

...

I'm sorry, I couldnt resist, this is still a Naruto forum, above all...

but on topic: Oh my god... or lack thereof... I feel bad for the other kids that have to live w/ them. And embarassed for the chumps who thought praying was the cure for diabetes. It's a bit shocking to know science and logic are still being ignored so hugely by people in the US.

...Oh, Wisconsin. What good are you besides at offering us bountiful dairy products? *giggle*


----------



## Sexta Espada (Mar 26, 2008)

They have one of the shittiest football teams with the most dedicated fans ever.


----------



## Psycho (Mar 26, 2008)

my daughter died cause i refused to sick medical atention for cause i thought god would cure her if we prayed enough... BLAME GOD HE WASN'T DO HIS JOB CORRECTLY

why god when we already do his role? we ressucitate people who died a minute before, we keep obviously dead people alive, and we kill people who we think don't deserve life, you ask where is god? walking on earth, day to day, in the shoes of everyone who think he can cheat death or give life


----------



## RokubiFox (Mar 26, 2008)

im mormon and i do believe in faith, but not that much so i would have it tattooed to my forehead!


----------



## Juanita Tequila (Mar 26, 2008)

I'm sorry, but I couldn't finish the article. I read half way and I started getting more and more irritated. 

These parent's are pretty delusional. I just don't understand these over-the-top religious people...thinking that God can solve everything in life just makes me go .


----------



## Byakkö (Mar 26, 2008)

But God resurrected Jesus therefore the girl could've lived if they had prayed harder 


This is the very proof of religion gone too far.


----------



## Kahvehane (Mar 26, 2008)

Unbelievable.

It amazes me that there are people THAT stupid. The girl has a curable form of diabetes yet her parents are completely ignorant of the fact that by simply dishing out oh so much money that their daughter will be healed of her devastating disease. So, they decide to go the easy way out and pray to their _God_.
They thought they could petition the Lord with _prayer_.


...

*YOU
CANNOT
PETITION
THE LORD
WITH
PRAYER!!!*


----------



## nejix3reminisce (Mar 26, 2008)

this is the downside to extremeness with any religion
i'm agnostic myself, but i have nothing against religion or praying
i just think they REALLY should of thought reasonably and gotten her some help

its very sad that the girls diabetes was treatable too.


----------



## Coteaz (Mar 26, 2008)

Ah, the power of prayer...


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Mar 26, 2008)

Byakk? said:


> But God resurrected Jesus therefore the girl could've lived if they had prayed harder
> 
> 
> This is the very proof of religion gone too far.



It's really the case of stupid people people gone too far. Most religious people have the common sense to go to the doctor when they get sick.

These people are just imbeciles


----------



## Deamiel (Mar 26, 2008)

Hmm... praying to an entity that doesn't exist?  Pfft, stupidity indeed.


----------



## Rock Lee (Mar 26, 2008)

Man i'm sitting her watching nancy grace and its a damn shame they let that cute little girl die like that,it seems the mother was apart of some prayer group and they are still looking into it but i think she is some kind of religist nutcase.


----------



## Rock Lee (Mar 26, 2008)

F**k i had to change the channel i can't listen to that 911 call.


----------



## Kyuubi Whisker (Mar 26, 2008)

There's an old Arab saying, "Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel".


----------



## Hitomi_No_Ryu (Mar 26, 2008)

> "They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."



No abuse...NO ABUSE? I seen neglect cases for DOGS stir up more reactions from police officers then what this police chief is saying! The chief should be looking into prosecuting the parents to the full extent of the laws.

How dare the parents think they can stay in utter denial even after witnessing their child DIE A SLOW PAINFUL DEATH FROM AN EASILY PREVENTABLE ILLNESS!!

It absolutely sickening!


----------



## The Sentry (Mar 26, 2008)

It's not God's fault. He doesn't go "Bibbidi-bobbidi-boo" and wave his magic wand of miracles. God gave people brains to find ways to cure medical problems. being stupid and not going to get help will not catalyze a mind-boggling act of God. On the contrary, he will say, "Fool. Tonight the life was taken becuase of your stupid, insolent, idiocy."


----------



## Keile (Mar 26, 2008)

Giovanni Rild said:


> God helps those who helps themselves. The point is to help yourself before asking for God's help



That defeats the point of asking for his help.

If you've already helped yourself, then what use is his help after the fact?

. I find this a paradox of sorts.


----------



## Jagon Fox (Mar 26, 2008)

That poor little girl. RIP sweetie.


----------



## Gary (Mar 26, 2008)

well they were asking god to help them they had all they needed at the house


----------



## Kyuubi Whisker (Mar 26, 2008)

It had been raining for days and days. The waters rose so high that one man was forced to climb onto the roof of his house.

As the waters rose higher, a man in a rowboat appeared, and told him to get in. “No,” replied the man on the roof. “I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me.” So the man in the rowboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.

The waters rose higher and higher, and suddenly a speedboat appeared. “Climb in!” shouted a man in the boat. “No,” replied the man on the roof. “I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me.” So the man in the speedboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.

The waters continued to rise. A helicopter appeared and over the loudspeaker, the pilot announced he would lower a rope to the man on the roof. “No,” replied the man on the roof. “I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me.” So the helicopter went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.

The waters rose higher and higher, and eventually they rose so high that the man on the roof was washed away, and alas, the poor man drowned.

Upon arriving in heaven, the man marched straight over to God. “Heavenly Father,” he said, “I had faith in you… I prayed to you to save me, and yet you did nothing. Why?” God gave him a puzzled look, and replied “I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what more did you expect?”


----------



## Jazz (Mar 26, 2008)

Hoh-Lee-Shit

I just laughed my ass off


----------



## Ennoea (Mar 26, 2008)

> This is the very proof of religion gone too far.



Yes this is religions fault, lets forget that the parents were delusional

And lol at the joke.


----------



## PerveeSage (Mar 26, 2008)

Mario said:


> WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?



win! /thread


----------



## Deamiel (Mar 26, 2008)

CrimemasterGogo said:


> Yes this is religions fault, lets forget that the parents were delusional
> 
> And lol at the joke.



Hmm... I see an obvious misinterpretation on your part in regards to what you quoted.

It didn't say religion was at fault.  It simply stated that this is what happens when religion is taken out of context and taken to an extreme.


----------



## Denji (Mar 27, 2008)

Absolutely irresponsible and foolish.

Poor girl.


----------



## colours (Mar 27, 2008)

People like this make me wonder if our species is getting smarter or dumber throughout the years.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

I think we should take this exceptional case and use it to make a gross generalization about a lot of people who are in no way associated with this.


----------



## Neji64 (Mar 27, 2008)

> The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.


Just wow... they just never learn.



colours said:


> People like this make me wonder if our species is getting smarter or dumber throughout the years.



Well, if we aren't, Natural Selection isn't doing its job.


----------



## Suigetsu (Mar 27, 2008)

Ohh yeah! lets pray so god cures our daughter for free so we dont have to spend a pennie on her medics.

Fanatics reallly impress me you know, with their dumbness.


----------



## Pilaf (Mar 27, 2008)

Catterix said:


> Amazing how an example of human stupidity and ignorance so quickly boiled down to religion bashing...
> 
> *yawn*



Amazing how every day of every year, religion shows another reason it deserves to be bashed.

*yawn*


----------



## Munak (Mar 27, 2008)

+1 to Atheism. Sadly.

I'll still stick to modern medicine for my cure. Mysticism will always fail.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Pilaf said:


> Amazing how every day of every year, religion shows another reason it deserves to be bashed.
> 
> *yawn*


Yes, because if religion didn't exist then stupid people wouldn't either. 

It's a science fact!


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Put them in therapy. Religion is cureable


----------



## Pilaf (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> Yes, because if religion didn't exist then stupid people wouldn't either.
> 
> It's a science fact!



They'd exist, but they wouldn't be encouraged and coddled so.


----------



## .Reiko (Mar 27, 2008)

The law is pathetic.
The parents can pray and they can be arrested for child indagerment or anything? that state has some issues..


----------



## Pilaf (Mar 27, 2008)

.Reiko said:


> The law is pathetic.
> The parents can pray and they can be arrested for child indagerment or anything? that state has some issues..



They weren't arrested _immediately_, but there's gonna be an investigation. Re read the article. I'd be very surprised indeed if they got away with this, and I'll write a letter to the law enforcement officials in that state.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Pilaf said:


> They'd exist, but they wouldn't be encouraged and coddled so.


 Coddled? What are you talking about?


----------



## Pilaf (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> Coddled? What are you talking about?



I'm talking about how a society supposedly built on a foundation which discourages thought encourages people who don't think. One of the founding principles of Abrahamic religion is that knowledge is bad, and those who would give it are the devil.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Pilaf said:


> I'm talking about how a society supposedly built on a foundation which discourages thought encourages people who don't think. One of the founding principles of Abrahamic religion is that knowledge is bad, and those who would give it are the devil.


 You are so lost in your own hysteria that I'd laugh if it weren't so sad.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> You are so lost in your own hysteria that I'd laugh if it weren't so sad.



Wasn't it god himself who forbid the humans to eat apples and thereby gain knowledge?


----------



## Verdius (Mar 27, 2008)

Giovanni Rild said:


> It's really the case of stupid people people gone too far. Most religious people have the common sense to go to the doctor when they get sick.
> 
> These people are just imbeciles



Your lack of faith disturbs me.

As for wah-ing over a few people trash talking about religion well what did you expect? If not for it this wouldn't have happened it's a little obvious.

Still, those parents should have their children taken away.


----------



## Pilaf (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Wasn't it god himself who forbid the humans to eat apples and thereby gain knowledge?



My precise point. From chapter one, the Bible sets itself against knowledge.


----------



## Lezard Valeth (Mar 27, 2008)

Believe It! said:


> All they had was a Bible study group. They weren't even saved. If you're not saved then your prayers for God to help you do not even reach Him. You have to pray to Jesus Christ to save you from your sins first.
> 
> However, I think that God's answer to this prayer WAS medical attention for the girl.



She died because parents did not pray God correctly? I see.

[YOUTUBE]JiMNbGZayuQ[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Pilaf (Mar 27, 2008)

Don't debate with Believe It. He enjoys it too much.


----------



## Jagon Fox (Mar 27, 2008)

Pilaf said:


> I'm talking about how a society supposedly built on a foundation which discourages thought encourages people who don't think. One of the founding principles of Abrahamic religion is that knowledge is bad, and those who would give it are the devil.



actually in this case fortunately people who believe this way are a teeny minority. unfortunately there are still people who believe this way.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Wasn't it god himself who forbid the humans to eat apples and thereby gain knowledge?


 I want everybody to take a minute and meditate on this post. This is what happens when people who don't understand scripture attempt to quote it. 

All done meditating? okay. 

The fruit they were forbidden to eat was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The Bible makes it very clear that God is considered "good", and they knew of him. Knowledge itself is never labeled as undesirable, only the knowledge of evil is bad. Adam and Eve didn't need to have first-hand experience with evil to live a good life, or to gain knowledge of things beyond evil. (aka; the good) Saying or even implying that God forbade _knowledge in general_ is a gross misconception, to put it nicely. 



Pilaf said:


> My precise point. From chapter one, the Bible sets itself against knowledge.


----------



## Pilaf (Mar 27, 2008)

You _do_ realize that good and evil don't actually exist, right? They're arbitrary social constructs designed to entrap mankind in a system of servitude. It's convenient to label things you don't like as "evil" because that doesn't require much thought or examination of the social systems that cause people to do hurtful things.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> I want everybody to take a minute and meditate on this post. This is what happens when people who don't understand scripture attempt to quote it.
> 
> All done meditating? okay.
> 
> The fruit they were forbidden to eat was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The Bible makes it very clear that God is considered "good", and they knew of him. Knowledge itself is never labeled as undesirable, only the knowledge of evil is bad. Adam and Eve didn't need to have first-hand experience with evil to live a good life, or to gain knowledge of things beyond evil. (aka; the good) Saying or even implying that God forbade _knowledge in general_ is a gross misconception, to put it nicely.



Three things:

1. Even if he didn't forbid knowledge in general, he censored our knowledge, basically telling us what we should and shoudn't know.

2. Eve ate the apple out of curiousity, she had the desire to gain knowledge:



			
				Genesis 3:6 said:
			
		

> And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and *a tree to be desired to make one wise*, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.



God apparently condemns the scientific spirit.

3. Apparently it gave them more knowledge than just that of good and evil:



			
				Genesis 3:11 said:
			
		

> And he [god] said, *Who told thee [Adam] that thou wast naked?* Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?



This question indicated that Adam didn't even know he was naked before he ate the apple.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Pilaf said:


> You _do_ realize that good and evil don't actually exist, right? They're arbitrary social constructs designed to entrap mankind in a system of servitude. It's convenient to label things you don't like as "evil" because that doesn't require much thought or examination of the social systems that cause people to do hurtful things.


 You're partly right but mostly wrong. It's easy to fall into a pluralistic view of life but that's because it inherently removes blame for one's actions, and with it the consequences. ("what may be murder and theft for you is a way of life for me; if I stop murdering and stealing then I can't live my life") 

The difference between good and evil is hardly arbitrary; on the contrary, it's very objective. Actions and ideologies that degrade life on either the micro or macro level are ultimately regressive and undesirable. I'd go so far as to assume that you have your own set of values of what is desirable and undesirable. (obviously, you view religion, or at least some religions, as undesirable if not outright evil) 

You're also wrong about the examination process. Knowing what is good implies that it must be identified and studied; how else would one be able to gain knowledge of it, and know that it is good?


----------



## hustler's ambition (Mar 27, 2008)

Well, I see the athesists are having a field day with this one. Let the bashing commence! 

But on topic, yes it was fucked up what happened to that girl, but to blame FAITH and RELIGION instead of placing CHILD ABUSE and NEGLECT on the parents is stupid. The situation was already fucked up to begin with, but how the girl's parents handled it was even MORE fucked up.

I don't believe in an "organized religion", but I do believe Jesus Christ died for our sins so we can live eternal life. I also believe we'll be judged when Judgement comes, but I DON'T believe in seeking help to save a loved from falling ill and dying, and then BLAMING GOD because of it. That's just an EXCUSE to COVER UP the negelectful way the parents treated that girl.


----------



## Traveller~ (Mar 27, 2008)

wow, thats pretty shocking and rather depressing to read about. Some people :/


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Three things:
> 
> 1. Even if he didn't forbid knowledge in general, he censored our knowledge, basically telling us what we should and shoudn't know.
> 
> 2. Eve ate the apple out of curiousity, she had the desire to gain knowledge:


 a1. If there is a Creator whose wisdom is so deep, and whose power is unlimited, that He could forge our universe from the largest galactic system down to the smallest atomic particles, wouldn't He be worth listening to? 

a2. She ate the fruit because she coveted the power that God had. And where in the Bible does it say that the fruit was an apple? I'm starting to think that your knowledge of biblical events comes out of Sunday morning cartoons. 



> God apparently condemns the scientific spirit.


 She _thought_ it was fruit that would make her wise. That was a lie. If she were exercising the true spirit of science then she would have gone and asked God if the snake was speaking the truth, much like a scientist gathers information about an object or substance before subjecting himself to the dangers it presents. Eve was not being reasonable, rational, or even merely curious: she was being greedy and stupid. 



> 3. Apparently it gave them more knowledge than just that of good and evil:
> 
> This question indicated that Adam didn't even know he was naked before he ate the apple.


 Humans, while existing in a state of perfection as described in the Bible, are endowed with the Light of God to cover them. Ever heard of "robes of light" or becoming "whiter than snow"? You lose that when you sin, as sin is a separation from God, and the Light comes from God.


----------



## Enter Shikari (Mar 27, 2008)

Where is God when you need him?


----------



## hustler's ambition (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> a1. If there is a Creator whose wisdom is so deep, and whose power is unlimited, that He could forge our universe from the largest galactic system down to the smallest atomic particles, wouldn't He be worth listening to?
> 
> a2. She ate the fruit because she coveted the power that God had. And where in the Bible does it say that the fruit was an apple? I'm starting to think that your knowledge of biblical events comes out of Sunday morning cartoons.
> 
> ...




*applauds* Well spoken! I agree with everything you said. I find it amusing that no one mentioned the serpent that convinced Eve to "eat the apple" in the first place.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> a1. If there is a Creator whose wisdom is so deep, and whose power is unlimited, that He could forge our universe from the largest galactic system down to the smallest atomic particles, wouldn't He be worth listening to?



Listening to yes, of course, but abhere to his word no matter what? No thanks, that's against our nature.



> a2. She ate the fruit because she coveted the power that God had. And where in the Bible does it say that the fruit was an apple? I'm starting to think that your knowledge of biblical events comes out of Sunday morning cartoons.



I don't care about your interpretation of Eve's motivation. The bible says that she ate it because she wanted to get smarter. Period.

Also, you're right about the apple (I never noticed it before). Kind of makes me wonder where the whole idea of the forbidden fruit being an apple came from  (Still no reason for insults, though)



> She _thought_ it was fruit that would make her wise. That was a lie. If she were exercising the true spirit of science then she would have gone and asked God if the snake was speaking the truth, much like a scientist gathers information about an object or substance before subjecting himself to the dangers it presents. Eve was not being reasonable, rational, or even merely curious: she was being greedy and selfish.



God would've said no, it's not true. Now what? Snake says yes, god says no, Eve is curious. What's the only logical thing to do if you have scientific spirit? Right, eat it. Also, since when is the desire to gain knowledge greedy?



> Humans, while existing in a state of perfection as described in the Bible, are endowed with the Light of God to cover them. Ever heard of "robes of light" or becoming "whiter than snow"? You lose that when you sin, as sin is a separation from God, and the Light comes from God.



State of perfection? We're far far far away from perfection. We're physically weak compared to other animals and certain parts of the brain (like memory) are a lot better for other animals, too. If we're perfect, there will always be something more perfect.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Nesha said:


> *applauds* Well spoken! I agree with everything you said. I find it amusing that no one mentioned the serpent that convinced Eve to "eat the apple" in the first place.



The snake, as created by god while he knew that the snake was going to tempt Eve. Good job, god.


----------



## Pilaf (Mar 27, 2008)

Yeah really...nice smokescreen, faith heads. Blame the fucking serpent _who was created by_ your false god.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Listening to yes, of course, but abhere to his word no matter what? No thanks, that's against our nature.


 So, you're assuming that following human nature, even into death, is better than adhering to the Eternal? 

Huh.



> I don't care about your interpretation of Eve's motivation. The bible says that she ate it because she wanted to get smarter. Period.


 And that is why you fail.  



> Also, you're right about the apple (I never noticed it before). Kind of makes me wonder where the whole idea of the forbidden fruit being an apple came from  (Still no reason for insults, though)


 Apples are plentiful in the West, making them easily used as a reference object for theater and such. 



> God would've said no, it's not true. Now what? Snake says yes, god says no, Eve is curious. What's the only logical thing to do if you have scientific spirit? Right, eat it. Also, since when is the desire to gain knowledge greedy?


 So, you honestly wouldn't be able to make a decision based on the sources of the information? (that is, a talking snake and the Source of All Creation) 

Huh.



> State of perfection? We're far far far away from perfection. We're physically weak compared to other animals and certain parts of the brain (like memory) are a lot better for other animals, too. If we're perfect, there will always be something more perfect.


 You're partly right, but I'm sure that's accidental. Only God is truly perfect; He lends His perfection to those who follow Him. The Light is one of those things. Also, modern man is nothing like the original plan. If you'd care to check the Biblical genealogy you'd see that Antediluvian people lived ten times as long as modern man, and that started to decline sharply after the Flood. This would mean that there was something about the pre-Flood world that does not exist today, and we are merely children in comparison to them. And they, in turn, are merely children compared to Adam and Eve before the Fall, who themselves were children under God.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Pilaf said:


> Yeah really...nice smokescreen, faith heads. Blame the fucking serpent _who was created by_ your false god.


You're so funky fresh and in-my-face.  

Did you ever wonder how a snake could talk?


----------



## hustler's ambition (Mar 27, 2008)

And God created man, man created weapons, which leads to violence. What's your point? I'm not here to bash or insult, so I'd appreciate the same respect.

I DO believe in a higher power, but (getting back on the original topic) responsibility holds dear here. Those parents need to be responsible for their actions. Prayer helps, but seeking professional help would've been a wise choice as well.

Speaking of which, God created man, and man created medicine. See how this works...?


----------



## Pilaf (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> You're so funky fresh and in-my-face.
> 
> Did you ever wonder how a snake could talk?



Parseltongue? He must by a Slytherin! 

But more seriously, snakes can't fucking talk for one. I obviously don't believe a damn thing in the Book of Genesis, least of all the anthropomorphism of the snake character. I just find it odd that the values most people have in regards to knowledge being powerful are contradicted by the opening book of their own religion.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Pilaf said:


> Parseltongue? He must by a Slytherin!
> 
> But more seriously, snakes can't fucking talk for one. I obviously don't believe a damn thing in the Book of Genesis, least of all the anthropomorphism of the snake character. I just find it odd that the values most people have in regards to knowledge being powerful are contradicted by the opening book of their own religion.


 There was one other example of a real talking animal in the Bible, the mount of Saul on the road to Damascus. It was possessed by a spirit sent from God. What sort of spirit do you think would use a snake to tell Eve such lies about the fruit of the tree? But, if you really don't care you don't have to answer, simple as the question is. 

You assume knowledge is power. This is as much a falsehood as the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil being able to confer godhood. Actually, it's the exact same falsehood.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> So, you're assuming that following human nature, even into death, is better than adhering to the Eternal?
> 
> Huh.



We can't change the way we are  According to your beliefs, god created us this way so he has to deal with the consequences.



> And that is why you fail.



Because I use actual arguments which I can back up with scripture instead of your subjective interpretation of the bible? Excuse my failure, but I fail to see how this is fail.

 Apples are plentiful in the West, making them easily used as a reference object for theater and such. 



> So, you honestly wouldn't be able to make a decision based on the sources of the information? (that is, a talking snake and the Source of All Creation)
> 
> Huh.



Daddy says fire is hot, brother says it's not, what is kid gonna do?



> You're partly right, but I'm sure that's accidental. Only God is truly perfect; He lends His perfection to those who follow Him. The Light is one of those things. Also, modern man is nothing like the original plan. If you'd care to check the Biblical genealogy you'd see that Antediluvian people lived ten times as long as modern man, and that started to decline sharply after the Flood. This would mean that there was something about the pre-Flood world that does not exist today, and we are merely children in comparison to them. And they, in turn, are merely children compared to Adam and Eve before the Fall, who themselves were children under God.



Yeah I've read the genealogy. And I happen to know that no human being can possibly get that old. Every cell in our body has a maximum of how often it can divide, therefore it doesn't matter whether there is are no illnesses or if you never got injured, you cannot possibly get 900 years old.

Some of the Sumerian kings that lived before the flood were as old as 30,000 years. Do we believe that bullshit? No, then why are these absurd claims from the bible any more realistic?


----------



## Pilaf (Mar 27, 2008)

Speaking of ridiculous biblican genealogies...

Adam and Eve?

Noah's family?  

i*c*st, much? We know that a species cannot survive when its numbers are so few. Most species' are considered functionally extinct when their numbers reach fewer than 100, much less groups of less than ten. That applies for the animals on the boat, too.


----------



## HedKandi (Mar 27, 2008)

This reminds me of this joke that went something like this: a man was drowning (or lost at sea, can?t remember which) and a boat came past, asking him if he needed help.

The man said, ?No, God will save me?

So the boat left. Another boat then came by, with a similar offer. 

The man gave the same reply, and ended up dying.

When he finally met God, he said, ?God why didn?t you save me??

And God told him, ?I sent you two boats dummy.? 

Point of this post: Prayer is good if that?s what you believe in, but in situations like this it?s essential to take advantage of every facility possible and leave no stone unturned. It doesn?t need to be said that, that family should have gotten that poor little girl medical help.


----------



## Pilaf (Mar 27, 2008)

HedKandi said:


> This reminds me of this joke that went something like this: a man was drowning (or lost at sea, can?t remember which) and a boat came past, asking him if he needed help.
> 
> The man said, ?No, God will save me?
> 
> ...



Someone told that joke already, and they did it better than you did.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> We can't change the way we are  According to your beliefs, god created us this way so he has to deal with the consequences.


 He didn't just wind them up and kick them into the wild. He made the paradise Eden for them to live in, and gave them work to do, (tending the garden and procreation, both of which people still do and enjoy) as well as warned against eating from that one tree - the only forbidden tree in the entire world. Plus, in those early days He'd even come by every evening to spend time when them and see how they were doing. (when He came after they ate the fruit they were already hiding because they were expecting Him) Your desire to put blame where it's not due is worrying. 



> Because I use actual arguments which I can back up with scripture instead of your subjective interpretation of the bible? Excuse my failure, but I fail to see how this is fail.


 The scripture is not just some common book that can be understood simply by reading the text. It takes wisdom to understand it. You lack that necessary element to comprehend the scripture. Your points are based on misconceptions, so it's little wonder why you're so lost. 



> Daddy says fire is hot, brother says it's not, what is kid gonna do?


 Not touch in the fire, if he has cause to trust his father at all. Or maybe, if the kid has a special _scientific spirit_ (at least the kind that you promote) he'd jump in just to make sure of who was right and who was wrong. I also find it funny that you equate a talking snake to one's own brother. What kind of family did _you_ grow up in? 



> Yeah I've read the genealogy. And I happen to know that no human being can possibly get that old. Every cell in our body has a maximum of how often it can divide, therefore it doesn't matter whether there is are no illnesses or if you never got injured, you cannot possibly get 900 years old.


 The functions of a cell can be affected by a number of forces: food, water, air, stress. Air pockets found in glacier formations show that the air from the time that the glaciers were formed was much more rich in oxygen than it is today, which would promote longevity. This change, along with the loss of better vegetation and water sources, could easily be explained by a global catastrophe. 



> Some of the Sumerian kings that lived before the flood were as old as 30,000 years. Do we believe that bullshit? No, then why are these absurd claims from the bible any more realistic?


 Because biblical stories are not as absurd as you so disparately believe. 



> Speaking of ridiculous biblican genealogies...
> 
> Adam and Eve?
> 
> ...


 The i*c*st is a primary cause of humanity depredation. Take note that it wasn't outlawed by God until the time of Moses, and I assume it was eventually made forbidden because humanity had fallen so far that the destructive genes finally started to surface. But by then it was unnecessary. Very conveniently timed, almost as if there were some kind of _plan_ behind it all.


----------



## HedKandi (Mar 27, 2008)

Pilaf said:


> Someone told that joke already, and they did it better than you did.



They certainly deserve a sticker, then.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> He didn't just wind them up and kick them into the wild. He made the paradise Eden for them to live in, and gave them work to do, (tending the garden and procreation, both of which people still do and enjoy) as well as warned against eating from that one tree - the only forbidden tree in the entire world. Plus, in those early days He'd even come by every evening to spend time when them and see how they were doing. (when He came after they ate the fruit they were already hiding because they were expecting Him) Your desire to put blame where it's not due is worrying.



He built it for them to live? Ok, let's ignore that he's supposedly omniscient and would've known that they're going to eat the forbidden fruit. Let's also ignore that he constantly tempted them by putting the tree in the middle of the garden instead of just not creating it or placing it somewhere Adam and Eve can't reach it...



> The scripture is not just some common book that can be understood simply by reading the text. It takes wisdom to understand it. You lack that necessary element to comprehend the scripture. Your points are based on misconceptions, so it's little wonder why you're so lost.



Ok, so here we should interprete but when it comes to ridiculous ages like 900 years we take literally? Spare me your cherry picking, please.



> Not touch in the fire, if he has cause to trust his father at all. Or maybe, if the kid has a special _scientific spirit_ (at least the kind that you promote) he'd jump in just to make sure of who was right and who was wrong. I also find it funny that you equate a talking snake to one's own brother. What kind of family did _you_ grow up in?



You're telling me that you never did something your parents told you not to do? That's either bullshit or you should go see a therapist about it.



> The functions of a cell can be affected by a number of forces: food, water, air, stress. Air pockets found in glacier formations show that the air from the time that the glaciers were formed was much more rich in oxygen than it is today, which would promote longevity. This change, along with the loss of better vegetation and water sources, could easily be explained by a global catastrophe.



You don't have a clue what you're talking about here. It sounds like "there was some more oxygen a few million years ago, this could explain magically increasing the number of times a cell can divide". No, sir, that's not how biology works, I'm afraid.



> Because biblical stories are not as absurd as you so disparately believe.



But Sumerian king chronicles are, I assume?



> The i*c*st is a primary cause of humanity depredation. Take note that it wasn't outlawed by God until the time of Moses, and I assume it was eventually made forbidden because humanity had fallen so far that the destructive genes finally started to surface. But by then it was unnecessary. Very conveniently timed, almost as if there were some kind of _plan_ behind it all.



Forbidden? This is not about what god allows, these are biological processes (unless you go for the poof-magic explanation of course...)


----------



## Casyle (Mar 27, 2008)

Kyuubi Whisker said:


> It had been raining for days and days. The waters rose so high that one man was forced to climb onto the roof of his house.
> 
> As the waters rose higher, a man in a rowboat appeared, and told him to get in. ?No,? replied the man on the roof. ?I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me.? So the man in the rowboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.
> 
> ...



*Laughs*  That reminds me of the lottery ticket joke!

We'lll call her Patricia.

Patricia was poor and in debt and really needed money, so she prayed and asked God to let her win the lottery.  She watches to see if she won, and she didn't.  She prayed again, "Please, God, I desperately need money, let me win the lottery."  Again, she watches tv to see if she won and she didn't.  Frustrated, she asks God why he won't let her win the lottery.  Finally, God replies, "C'mon, Patricia, help me out here!  Buy a lottery ticket!".  



> That defeats the point of asking for his help.
> 
> If you've already helped yourself, then what use is his help after the fact?
> 
> . I find this a paradox of sorts.



No, it doesn't.  It doesn't mean you have to do everything yourself, it just means you have to TRY and help yourself, not just sit around asking Him to do things for you.  

Just like the above jokes, you just have to put some effort into whatever it is you need help with too, not just keep asking Him while doing nothing.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> He built it for them to live? Ok, let's ignore that he's supposedly omniscient and would've known that they're going to eat the forbidden fruit. Let's also ignore that he constantly tempted them by putting the tree in the middle of the garden instead of just not creating it or placing it somewhere Adam and Eve can't reach it...


 Why ignore it? He put it in the center of the garden to make it easily visible, and told them to simply stay away from it, and that the man and woman should stick together so to keep a constant watch over each other. It was only because Eve strayed away from Adam that she was even alone by the tree in the first place. 

And, the tree was made to give them the freedom of choice. As Eve saw upon inspection, there was nothing wrong with the tree or the fruit: the entire danger was in disobeying the word of the Lord. And this is a God that proclaims Himself to be a God of love. He freely gives love to everyone, and only asks that it be freely returned. (trusting Him is one way to show love) If one doesn't want to love the Lord then they don't have to. He made them aware that if they chose to be against Him then the only other option was death, so that they would be able to make an informed decision about whether or not to trust Him. So, if there was no forbidden tree then there would be no choice, and without choice there is no freedom, no freedom no love. They made their choice, but it is impossible to understand it if you don't understand Him. 



> Ok, so here we should interprete but when it comes to ridiculous ages like 900 years we take literally? Spare me your cherry picking, please.


 It's only ridiculous from your point of view. 



> You're telling me that you never did something your parents told you not to do? That's either bullshit or you should go see a therapist about it.


 Of course I have. When did I ever imply otherwise? Hell, did you even ask that question? Either way, I don't blame them for my choices: my choices are mine. This is especially true when they told me to not do something, and afterwards they made sure that I understood that the punishment for my action was my own fault. If you believe they were at fault for my choices, as you believe Adam and Eve's actions were God's fault, then perhaps you're the one who needs therapy. 



> You don't have a clue what you're talking about here. It sounds like "there was some more oxygen a few million years ago, this could explain magically increasing the number of times a cell can divide". No, sir, that's not how biology works, I'm afraid.


 Science disagrees. Cells are not alloted some arbitrary number for divisions, they divide based on the quality of the cell that they originated from. The better the parent cell, the better the offspring. Better food sources, water sources, air sources, and even a better mentality are proven to improve one's quality and quantity of life, all the way down to the cellular level. 



> But Sumerian king chronicles are, I assume?


 Do you have any basis on which to believe that it's not? 



> Forbidden? This is not about what god allows, these are biological processes (unless you go for the poof-magic explanation of course...)


 Since you understand so little about biology I'm going to ask you to stop bringing it up until you learn something worth saying. In fact, this is getting very much off-topic, so unless you have something on-topic or of some kind of value to post then, for your own benefit, we should drop this.


----------



## captain salad (Mar 27, 2008)

wat a stupid bitch


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> Why ignore it? He put it in the center of the garden to make it easily visible, and told them to simply stay away from it, and that the man and woman should stick together so to keep a constant watch over each other. It was only because Eve strayed away from Adam that she was even alone by the tree in the first place.
> 
> And, the tree was made to give them the freedom of choice. As Eve saw upon inspection, there was nothing wrong with the tree or the fruit: the entire danger was in disobeying the word of the Lord. And this is a God that proclaims Himself to be a God of love. He freely gives love to everyone, and only asks that it be freely returned. (trusting Him is one way to show love) If one doesn't want to love the Lord then they don't have to. He made them aware that if they chose to be against Him then the only other option was death, so that they would be able to make an informed decision about whether or not to trust Him. So, if there was no forbidden tree then there would be no choice, and without choice there is no freedom, no freedom no love. They made their choice, but it is impossible to understand it if you don't understand Him.



You forgot, that he told them they'd die when they eat of the tree.



> It's only ridiculous from your point of view.



Way to completely ignore my point. I asked why you interprete in Genesis 3 but you take literally only a few chapter later.

How can any sane person believe that someone gets 900 years old? That's absurd ridiculous and a lot more. Not just from my point of view but from any halfway sane point of view.



> Of course I have. When did I ever imply otherwise? Hell, did you even ask that question? Either way, I don't blame them for my choices: my choices are mine. This is especially true when they told me to not do something, and afterwards they made sure that I understood that the punishment for my action was my own fault. If you believe they were at fault for my choices, as you believe Adam and Eve's actions were God's fault, then perhaps you're the one who needs therapy.



Did your parents cast you out of their house into the wilderness when you did something wrong for the first time? Probably not, but god did.



> Science disagrees. Cells are not alloted some arbitrary number for divisions, they divide based on the quality of the cell that they originated from. The better the parent cell, the better the offspring. Better food sources, water sources, air sources, and even a better mentality are proven to improve one's quality and quantity of life, all the way down to the cellular level.







> Do you have any basis on which to believe that it's not?



The bible or the Sumerian king chronicles? I believe the latter more as it only contains one part of bullshitting while the rest seems to be historically correct. Unlike the bible which just keeps bullshitting and spilling out scientifical impossibilities.



> Since you understand so little about biology I'm going to ask you to stop bringing it up until you learn something worth saying. In fact, this is getting very much off-topic, so unless you have something on-topic or of some kind of value to post then, for your own benefit, we should drop this.



Nice ad hominem + cop out.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> You forgot, that he told them they'd die when they eat of the tree.


 I implied that when I said that He told them that death was the other option. 



> Way to completely ignore my point. I asked why you interprete in Genesis 3 but you take literally only a few chapter later.
> 
> How can any sane person believe that someone gets 900 years old? That's absurd ridiculous and a lot more. Not just from my point of view but from any halfway sane point of view.


 Because I believe what it says, and I have no reason to believe that it's not literal. 



> Did your parents cast you out of their house into the wilderness when you did something wrong for the first time? Probably not, but god did.


 No they didn't, but I didn't drag the whole world and the rest of humanity into darkness when I did something wrong. May the punishment fit the crime. 

 I'm only responding to this post because of this link. 

And, my response is: do you believe that the Hayflick dynamic has always been set to this level, or that it's unchangeable (by any factor), or that it hasn't ever changed? 



> The bible or the Sumerian king chronicles? I believe the latter more as it only contains one part of bullshitting while the rest seems to be historically correct. Unlike the bible which just keeps bullshitting and spilling out scientifical impossibilities.


 The Sumerian chronicles. If you're getting confused then you should be more specific in your posts. 



> Nice ad hominem + cop out.


 You made the automatic assumption that God has no say in the nature of biology. To take your point seriously would be a self-defeating position.


----------



## element_fighter (Mar 27, 2008)

Even if they prayed tehy should still trust in modern medicine.  As has been said if they believe God will provide a way....why not through the med


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> Because I believe what it says, and I have no reason to believe that it's not literal.



But you don't believe it's literal when it comes to Eve's motivation for eating from the tree?



> No they didn't, but I didn't drag the whole world and the rest of humanity into darkness when I did something wrong. *May the punishment fit the crime*.



Interesting that you mention it. I didn't know that knowing right from wrong = dragging humanity into darkness.



> I'm only responding to this post because of this link.
> 
> And, my response is: do you believe that the Hayflick dynamic has always been set to this level, or that it's unchangeable (by any factor), or that it hasn't ever changed?



It has changed throughout evolution. But it doesn't evolve within 6000 years (which is the age of humanity since you take the bible literally).



> The Sumerian chronicles. If you're getting confused then you should be more specific in your posts.



They're still more reliable than the bible which has false prophecies and scientific impossibilities all over it.



> You made the automatic assumption that God has no say in the nature of biology. To take your point seriously would be a self-defeating position.



Biology is a natural science. God is supernatural. Does not match.


----------



## Jin-E (Mar 27, 2008)

Seriously, i wonder about some religious people's scepticism towards the Medical profession.

Perhaps they thought she was possesed or something


----------



## HyperKnuckles22 (Mar 27, 2008)

another sad example of why religion cant solve any of man's problems.


----------



## Acidblood7 (Mar 27, 2008)

This reminds me of a story:

As the land was flooding a man ran on top of the roof and started praying. A boat came to rescue him and he said no thank you, God will save me. So later another boat comes and they say come on get on, and he said no thanks God will save me. So finally the water reaches deep level and a helicopter comes and tries to rescue the guy, and the man say no God will save me. So the man finally drowns, and he ask God why didn't you save me and God responds I did you idiot I sent you 2 boats and a helicopter!  

Some people are complete man utter idiots depend on religion so much they become mindless fools.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Acidblood7 said:


> This reminds me of a story:
> 
> As the land was flooding a man ran on top of the roof and started praying. A boat came to rescue him and he said no thank you, God will save me. So later another boat comes and they say come on get on, and he said no thanks God will save me. So finally the water reaches deep level and a helicopter comes and tries to rescue the guy, and the man say no God will save me. So the man finally drowns, and he ask God why didn't you save me and God responds I did you idiot I sent you 2 boats and a helicopter!
> 
> Some people are complete man utter idiots depend on religion so much they become mindless fools.



Bravo, the third time we heard that story


----------



## Ennoea (Mar 27, 2008)

She was possesed by the diabetes monster



> another sad example of why religion cant solve any of man's problems.



Yes it religions fault that these people were complete idiots

Religion solved in killing my sex drive, it can work at times


----------



## Acidblood7 (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Bravo, the third time we heard that story



And just like the Head on commercial you will never forget it now lol.


----------



## Ennoea (Mar 27, 2008)

Heres a great joke:

There was a Christian lady who lived next door to an atheist. Every day, when the lady prayed, the atheist guy could hear her. He thought to himself, "She sure is crazy, praying all the time like that. Doesn't she know there isn't a God?" 

Many times while she was praying, he would go to her house and harass her, saying "Lady, why do you pray all the time? Don't you know there is no God?" But she kept on praying. 

One day, she ran out of groceries. As usual, she was praying to the Lord explaining her situation and thanking Him for what He was gonna do. As usual, the atheist heard her praying and thought to himself, "Humph! I'll fix her."

He went to the grocery store, bought a whole bunch of groceries, took them to her house, dropped them off on the front porch, rang the door bell and then hid in the bushes to see what she would do. When she opened the door and saw the groceries, she began to praise the Lord with all her heart, jumping, singing and shouting everywhere! The atheist then jumped out of the bushes and told her, "You ol' crazy lady, God didn't buy you those groceries, I bought those groceries!" At hearing this, she broke out and started running down the street, shouting and praising the Lord.

When he finally caught her, he asked what her problem was. She said, "I knew the Lord would provide me with some groceries, but I didn't know he was gonna make the devil pay for them!"


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Wait, I have a better joke:

When the land was flooding a man ran on his roof and prayed for god to save him. A boat came and wanted to rescue him but he refused and said "God will save me". Later another boat came and offers him help but again he refused saying "God will save me". When the water reached deep level a helicopter came to save him but again he refuses saying "God will save me". So he kept praying until he drowned. When he finally reaches heaven he complains to God why he didn't save him and God suddenly turned into the Flying Spagetthi Monster proclaiming "WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?"

...or something along those lines


----------



## Ennoea (Mar 27, 2008)

I've never heard of that joke before


----------



## Wolfarus (Mar 27, 2008)

i read about this in the paper a cple days ago. They are seeing if they can press charges and take the other kids away under a new-ish law that protects the wellfare of children first, even when it goes against religious reasons.

Hopefully they can.


----------



## temporarymadness (Mar 27, 2008)

wtf?! what are they uneducated?

I'm sorry but that's just disgusting...I understand praying to God and all, but refusing to send your own kid who's dying to the hospital is sick and twisted


----------



## Stalin (Mar 27, 2008)

Even my very religious grandma knows that you have to go to the hospital when you're ill.


----------



## 64palms (Mar 27, 2008)

lol, Theism.

Obviously God hates them.


----------



## Klavіer (Mar 27, 2008)

It's pretty sad when you hear stories like these.


----------



## "LADY KISS" (Mar 27, 2008)

Once again..

Prove that Faith isn't everything


----------



## Koi (Mar 27, 2008)

Wait, why aren't they taking the other kids away?  So, when something dire happens to them, they're allowed to die too, right?


Man.. this is what's wrong with the world.


----------



## Giorno Giovannax (Mar 27, 2008)

Pilaf said:


> Amazing how every day of every year, religion shows another reason it deserves to be bashed.
> 
> *yawn*




RIGHT...because that is completely the fault of religion, not pure ignorance and stupidity.

The comments of atheists make me shake my head sometimes.


Again people, this was caused by ignorance and stupidity, not God or religion. If they had taken the girl to the doctor to get checked and then prayed that God will help her daughter get through this, then this would have never happened and that is a fact! 

The fact that they believe the girl would be resurrected is just a sign of pure stupidity since anyway, only Jesus resurrected and he is the son of God. No human has ever resurrected.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Giorno Giovanna said:


> RIGHT...because that is completely the fault of religion, not pure ignorance and stupidity.
> 
> The comments of atheists make me shake my head sometimes.



Shake your head as much as you want. If they hadn't been religious, this wouldn't have happened.



> Again people, this was caused by ignorance and stupidity, not God or religion. If they had taken the girl to the doctor to get checked and then prayed that God will help her daughter get through this, then this would have never happened and that is a fact!



They should've been able to distinguish between bible and reality.



> The fact that they believe the girl would be resurrected is just a sign of pure stupidity since anyway, only Jesus resurrected and he is the son of God. No human has ever resurrected.



Re-read the NT, Jesus ressurected some humans.


----------



## Giorno Giovannax (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Shake your head as much as you want. If they hadn't been religious, this wouldn't have happened.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My parents are Christians as well and they brought me to the doctor when I needed to be brought there. Again, religion had nothing to do with this as much as you wish it did, it's pure stupidity and ignorance. And yes, they should have been able to realize that you need to bring your daughter to a doctor to get herself checked and not just stand there and just pray and hope that she gets resurrected. 

And yes, I did forget about Lazarus but guess, he didn't resurrect himself, he was resurrected by the son of God which again proves my point that this was stupidity in them believing that their daughter would have been resurrected.

The whole point and lesson behind all this is simple: BRING YOU DAUGHTER TO A DOCTOR, REGARDLESS AND IF YOU ARE RELIGIOUS, THEN YOU PRAY AFTER THE PERSON IS BROUGHT TO A DOCTOR AND CHECKED. Everyone in my church does it, hence proving that this was not caused by religion, but by stupidity and ignorance, no matter how much you want to believe otherwise.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Giorno Giovanna said:


> My parents are Christians as well and they brought me to the doctor when I needed to be brought there. Again, religion had nothing to do with this as much as you wish it did, it's pure stupidity and ignorance. And yes, they should have been able to realize that you need to bring your daughter to a doctor to get herself checked and not just stand there and just pray and hope that she gets resurrected.
> 
> And yes, I did forget about Lazarus but guess, he didn't resurrect himself, he was resurrected by the son of God which again proves my point that this was stupidity in them believing that their daughter would have been resurrected.
> 
> The whole point and lesson behind all this is simple: BRING YOU DAUGHTER TO A DOCTOR, REGARDLESS AND IF YOU ARE RELIGIOUS, THEN YOU PRAY AFTER THE PERSON IS BROUGHT TO A DOCTOR AND CHECKED. Everyone in my church does it, hence proving that this was not caused by religion, but by stupidity and ignorance, no matter how much you want to believe otherwise.



I'm not saying it was caused by religion, I'm just saying it wouldn't have happened if the parents hadn't been religious.

Also if the son of god could resuerrect someone, why shouldn't the parents believe that god can do so, too?


----------



## Stalin (Mar 27, 2008)

It was the combination of their stupidity and faith, even my religious grandma knows that you have to go to the hospital when you're extremely ill and she's like the most relgious person I know.


----------



## Giorno Giovannax (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> I'm not saying it was caused by religion, I'm just saying it wouldn't have happened if the parents hadn't been religious.
> 
> Also if the son of god could resuerrect someone, why shouldn't the parents believe that god can do so, too?




Regardless of them being religious, it was their stupidity and ignorance that was the main cause of this and because of those two major attributes, they mis-used religion and hence caused all of this. It is because they are stupid and ignorant, that is why this happened. If they were simply religious but not stupid and ignorant, would that have happened?

So because they believe God could resurrect someone, that should excuse them from their stupidity and ignorance? There is a reason why doctors exist, it is to help people with their health and that is the people God uses to heal people, hence why you see miracles in the medical field. If they were smart, they would have realized that, just like every other Christian does.

Again, this was caused by stupidity and ignorance and because they were religious, they mis-used religion.


----------



## +Kohana_Ame+ (Mar 27, 2008)

...Freaks. This proves again, that sometimes/most of times faith causes more bad things than good things. How could these people let their daughter die like that?!


----------



## Giorno Giovannax (Mar 27, 2008)

The Cheat said:


> It was the combination of their stupidity and faith, even my religious grandma knows that you have to go to the hospital when you're extremely ill and she's like the most relgious person I know.




That's a better way to look at it though I would say stupidity and misunderstanding of their beliefs caused this to happen.

@MileyWinters: Yes, let's ignore the fact that they were incredibly stupid and didn't even understand their own beliefs. 

That's it, I'm out of here. It's obvious that people rather blame this on religion than pure stupidity and ignorance when it's obviously clear that it is the latter's fault and that the former was unfortunately included in all of this.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Giorno Giovanna said:


> Regardless of them being religious, it was their stupidity and ignorance that was the main cause of this and because of those two major attributes, they mis-used religion and hence caused all of this. It is because they are stupid and ignorant, that is why this happened. *If they were simply religious but not stupid and ignorant, would that have happened?*



If they were simply stupid and ignorant but not religious, would that have happened?



> So because they believe God could resurrect someone, that should excuse them from their stupidity and ignorance? There is a reason why doctors exist, it is to help people with their health and that is the people God uses to heal people, hence why you see miracles in the medical field. If they were smart, they would have realized that, just like every other Christian does.
> 
> Again, this was caused by stupidity and ignorance and because they were religious, they mis-used religion.



God uses doctors? Many doctors are just fine without god, don't insult them.

Still, they learned from the bible that miracles are possible, what reason would they have to not believe that?


----------



## Giorno Giovannax (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> If they were simply stupid and ignorant but not religious, would that have happened?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There's no way of knowing and nice way of just avoiding my previous question, shows incredible intellectual honesty there.. So basically, you concede that point then?

And how do you know about that? And by the way, if God didn't use doctors then I wouldn't be here today because it was thanks to God using the doctors, the very same ones who told my mom not to have me since my birth would have been too complicated and the fact that I would have Down's syndrome (which was an obvious lie), and my mother praying to God, that I am here today, 22 years old and healthy so yes, God does use doctors, it's just that because of your beliefs, you do not believe so.

Yes, they learned miracles are possible and miracles do happen, the problem is the way they did things didn't really guarantee a miracle. Who isn't to say that a miracle wouldn't have happened if they took their daughter to a doctor?

Again, your argument holds no ground since every Christian I know, including myself, go to a doctor first and then ask for God's help. The situation was this: They had a chance to bring their daughter to a doctor which would have been very beneficial. They did not and instead decided that they would let their daughter die and pray for resurrection so basically, they allowed their daughter to die and thus killed her. And you think God is going to answer that prayer?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Giorno Giovanna said:


> There's no way of knowing and nice way of just avoiding my previous question, shows incredible intellectual honesty there.. So basically, you concede that point then?



I'm not conceding anything, I simply never claimed that religion caused this. For the third time I just said that it wouldn't have happened without religion. There are a lot of people on this planet who are stupid and ignorant. Many of them have kids but we don't hear about kids dying every day because their parents were stupid, do we? No, here their stupidity collided with delusion about a higher power magically interfering in their lives.



> And how do you know about that? And by the way, if God didn't use doctors then I wouldn't be here today because it was thanks to God using the doctors, the very same ones who told my mom not to have me since my birth would have been too complicated and the fact that I would have Down's syndrome (which was an obvious lie), and my mother praying to God, that I am here today, 22 years old and healthy so yes, God does use doctors, it's just that because of your beliefs, you do not believe so.



There's an old proverb which says "Shit happens"  We can't blame god for everything. Doctors make mistakes because they're human (again you insulted atheist doctors but nevermind...). You're story is sad but that doesn't change anything. In 99% of the cases they're right without some god helping them.



> Yes, they learned miracles are possible and miracles do happen, the problem is the way they did things didn't really guarantee a miracle. Who isn't to say that a miracle wouldn't have happened if they took their daughter to a doctor?



Well, that's what happens when you let stupid people hear stupid stories. They're going to believe them.



> Again, *your argument* holds no ground since every Christian I know, including myself, go to a doctor first and then ask for God's help. The situation was this: They had a chance to bring their daughter to a doctor which would have been very beneficial. They did not and instead decided that they would let their daughter die and pray for resurrection so basically, they allowed their daughter to die and thus killed her. And you think God is going to answer that prayer?



Which argument are you talking about?


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Mar 27, 2008)

There are limits to freedom of religion.  If you're a fire worshiper and your religion says you can't put out a fire and as a result you sit there and watch your child burn to death, you can't cry freedom of religion.  You have a responsibility for your childs life that takes precedent over all things.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> But you don't believe it's literal when it comes to Eve's motivation for eating from the tree?


 Of course I believe Eve's motivation is what is stated in the Bible, but what I'm disagreeing with is your interpretation of it. You're still clinging to the misconception that Eve was trying to gain mere knowledge, when the Bible clearly states that she ate the fruit because she accepted the lie that the fruit would make her as wise as God (knowledge and wisdom are not the same thing) and that it wouldn't kill her. (the snake was eating the fruit to "prove" that it was harmless, and even claimed that the fruit is what gave it the ability to speak, whereas God directly stated that eating the fruit - which inherently involved disobeying Him - would result in death) There is much more to the story than what you are focusing on. 



> Interesting that you mention it. I didn't know that knowing right from wrong = dragging humanity into darkness.


 Again, this is your misconception. The fruit wasn't knowledge _between_ right and wrong, it was _experience of_ good and evil. There were other ways to experience good (work and procreation being the two good objectives given to mankind before the Fall) while there is no need to experience evil. 



> It has changed throughout evolution. But it doesn't evolve within 6000 years (which is the age of humanity since you take the bible literally).


 Evolution is the process of mutation. Mutation rates are imposed more by environment (food, water, air) rather than by time. Only if there is no external interference and the world is left to its natural devices would your supposed time limits even begin to have any relevance. 



> They're still more reliable than the bible which has false prophecies and scientific impossibilities all over it.


 How many times do I have to say "I disagree" before it sinks into your skull? Just give me a number, I'll copy/paste it up. 



> Biology is a natural science. God is supernatural. Does not match.


 



Tsukiyomi said:


> There are limits to freedom of religion.  If you're a fire worshiper and your religion says you can't put out a fire and as a result you sit there and watch your child burn to death, you can't cry freedom of religion.  You have a responsibility for your childs life that takes precedent over all things.


 This is a bad analogy. These imaginary people who worship fire would have to take action which results in an unnatural death, whereas the people referred to in the article refused to take action which resulted in a death by natural causes. Your imagination and reality couldn't be more different.


----------



## Mintaka (Mar 27, 2008)

> So because they believe God could resurrect someone, that should excuse them from their stupidity and ignorance? There is a reason why doctors exist, it is to help people with their health and that is the people God uses to heal people, hence why you see miracles in the medical field. If they were smart, they would have realized that, just like every other Christian does.


Way to downplay every breakthrough made by doctors in the medicinal field as a miracle of god.  People use medicine and years of research into how chemicals and our bodies work god has nothing to do with it.  It's through medical/biological knowhow and science that medicine is where it is today not his noodly almightyness.


----------



## +Kohana_Ame+ (Mar 27, 2008)

@Giovanna:
If they were just stupid and ignorant, they wouldn't have prayed. Their praying shows off, that they were religious after all, and 'knew', what they were doing.
I could (sounds insane, I know) forgive someone for ignoring somebodys pain, but their praying was their kind of help! They knew what the fuck they were doing! They watched her die because of extreme faith! They put their kid in extreme danger because of faith!
It's the mixture of faith and naivity, that killed the girl in the end! Don't you agree?
Well, if you don't: GET ALONG WITH IT.

I just needed to add those things above to my statement^^


----------



## Leen (Mar 27, 2008)

> 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if people claim to have faith but have no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. - James 2:14-17



Faith without action is dead. There's no need to pray if you don't want to go see a doctor to get well. This incident has nothing to do with the religion since Christianity does talk about how faith alone is not enough because work is needed as well. It is the mother herself who misread/misinterpret the bible or she is just too ignorant and uneducated in the bible knowledge. Don't put the whole blame on the religion alone.


----------



## Coteaz (Mar 27, 2008)

Tell me this - if the parents had been nonreligious, would they have simply stood by and mumbled words whilst their daughter dies?


Giorno Giovanna said:


> Again, this was caused by stupidity and ignorance and because they were religious, *they mis-used religion.*


I'd love to hear your view of how to use religion correctly, then.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> Of course I believe Eve's motivation is what is stated in the Bible, but what I'm disagreeing with is your interpretation of it. You're still clinging to the misconception that Eve was trying to gain mere knowledge, when the Bible clearly states that she ate the fruit because she accepted the lie that the fruit would make her as wise as God (knowledge and wisdom are not the same thing) and that it wouldn't kill her. (*the snake was eating the fruit to "prove" that it was harmless, and even claimed that the fruit is what gave it the ability to speak*, whereas God directly stated that eating the fruit - which inherently involved disobeying Him - would result in death) There is much more to the story than what you are focusing on.



I'd like bible reference for the bolded part.

Also she wanted to become wise. She wanted to gain wisdom. How is that something bad (apart from the disobeying thingy). It is, again, human nature.



> Again, this is your misconception. The fruit wasn't knowledge _between_ right and wrong, it was _experience of_ good and evil. There were other ways to experience good (work and procreation being the two good objectives given to mankind before the Fall) while there is no need to experience evil.



Without evil, there cannot be subjective good.



> Evolution is the process of mutation.



Wrong, evolution is mutations + natural selection + time.



> Mutation rates are imposed more by environment (food, water, air) rather than by time.



Wrong, mutations are random.



> Only if there is no external interference and the world is left to its natural devices would your supposed time limits even begin to have any relevance.



Bullshit, life reproduced with mutations. That's a fact (unless you go for the poof-magic explantion once again...)



> How many times do I have to say "I disagree" before it sinks into your skull? Just give me a number, I'll copy/paste it up.



Until you give me reason to believe you 



>



Look here, a breef definition of natural science. Important parts bolded:



			
				wiki said:
			
		

> In science, the term natural science refers to a *rational* approach to the study of the universe, which is understood as obeying rules or law of *natural origin*.



Indeed, it says natural. God is supernatural, no matter how hard you facepalm.


----------



## NaruTayu forever (Mar 27, 2008)

foolish, petty mortals. How dare they! *shaking with anger* Its the bastards like these, who give us a bad name. I'd prefer the company of a 100 atheists than 1 of them.


----------



## Leen (Mar 27, 2008)

Coteaz said:


> I'd love to hear your view of how to use religion correctly, then.



Refer to my earlier post.


----------



## Azira (Mar 27, 2008)

I really hate stories like this, well I hate the people who allow it to happen.  Its horrible what some people Do to their children, espically if they think 'God' is going to help them. 

and the worst part is There is actually a large number of people that think God can cure Illnesses in the manner the parents thought would work. 
I brought up this issue when talking to a person I know who is...._.insanely _religious. She was trying to make the argument that God can cure you if you have enough faith. She even went as so far as saying God could Cure Aids or Cancer.


----------



## T4R0K (Mar 27, 2008)

...

FUCKING DAMNIT IDIOTS !!! Who's their local church responsible ? He needs to be sentenced as well for implementing such stupid things in their heads !!


----------



## auto-matic (Mar 27, 2008)

WOW the parent dont seem regretful at all, how sad (not really) "dont worrie she'll be resurrected" (hopefuly she wont have the same illness)


----------



## NaruTayu forever (Mar 27, 2008)

I'd prefer the company of a 100 atheists than 1 of them.


yo saufsoldat man. sorry yo dude. did'n mean it like that. Most religious ppl hate/dislike atheists from the bottom of their soul. Not me though. I find you guys actually smart. Infact you influenced me.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

NaruTayu forever said:


> yo sausoldat man. sorry yo dude. did'n mean it like that. Most religious ppl hate/dislike atheists from the bottom of their soul. Not me though. I find you guys actually smart. Infact you influenced me.



 calm down, it was a joke

(How did I influence you, though? )


----------



## NaruTayu forever (Mar 27, 2008)

in one thread you said 1 reason you hated religion was because parents usually pass on the religion to their children. I was moved by that, and made sure that my children will make their own choice. They'll be raised as Hindu, and then will be given freedom to take whichever path they like. As all paths lead to 1 destination.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Mar 27, 2008)

NaruTayu forever said:


> in one thread you said 1 reason you hated religion was because parents usually pass on the religion to their children. I was moved by that, and made sure that my children will make their own choice. They'll be raised as Hindu, and then will be given freedom to take whichever path they like. As all paths lead to 1 destination.



It's normal to pass your culture to your children. But I see no problem with letting children make their own choices about religion


----------



## spaZ (Mar 27, 2008)

And thats why religion is pointless in todays day and age.


----------



## NaruTayu forever (Mar 27, 2008)

Giovanni Rild said:


> It's normal to pass your culture to your children. But I see no problem with letting children make their own choices about religion




but you shouldnt force it on them of course. If you have any questions, just go the "Ask a Dharmist" in my sig.


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> This is a bad analogy. These imaginary people who worship fire would have to take action which results in an unnatural death, whereas the people referred to in the article refused to take action which resulted in a death by natural causes. Your imagination and reality couldn't be more different.



My analogy was perfectly valid.  In BOTH instances the person can VERY easily save the childs life, but CHOOSES not to for religious reasons.  You simply chose to focus on the unimportant part of my analogy.

Fine, how about this.  A person who worships germs and chooses not to get life saving treatment for their child based on that.

Its ludicrous.  If it were for any reason other than religion then people would want their heads for criminal negligence, but just because they said its because of their special invisible man, its suddenly ok.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Mar 27, 2008)

spaZ said:


> And thats why religion is pointless in todays day and age.



I disagree. Religion still has a place in this world. You are basically saying a large part of the world's culture is pointless.  

If religion is important to a large portion of the world, then how is it pointless?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Giovanni Rild said:


> I disagree. Religion still has a place in this world. *You are basically saying a large part of the world's culture is pointless.*
> 
> If religion is important to a large portion of the world, then how is it pointless?



Bullshit, culture has been around for centuries, that's why he said in this day and age.


----------



## Red Viking (Mar 27, 2008)

This reminds me of a story I heard awhile back:

There was once a flood that devoured a town and left people stranded on their roofs while the water lever kept rising.  One group of people started praying, believing that God would deliver them from the flood and save them.

Soon, a boat passed by and the captain told them they could get on.  The group declined the offer, saying that their faith would keep them safe.  The captain pleaded with them, but, in the end, it was to no avail and the captain left in search for other survivors.

The water level steadily rose and another boat passed by and the 2nd captain said they would die if they didn't get on.  But again, the group declined, saying that their faith would save them.  Frustrated, the 2nd captain left to search for other survivors.

The water level continued to rise and a third boat passed by.  The 3rd captain stated that the previous captains told him of the group of people who refused to be saved and asked if he could talk some sense into them.  But again, the faithful stated that the captains didn't understand: As long as their faith was strong, God would protect them.  Seeing that he couldn't do anything to change their minds, the 3rd captain told them to make their peace and left.

The water level rose and the group prayed harder and louder as it finally reached them and then, they were all swept away.

When they next came to their senses, they realized they were all dead and were now standing before God in Heaven.  Hurt and confused, they asked Him why He had left them to die when they had needed Him the most.

God looked at them and responded sadly: "I sent you three boats."


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Red Viking said:


> This reminds me of a story I heard awhile back:
> 
> There was once a flood that devoured a town and left people stranded on their roofs while the water lever kept rising.  One group of people started praying, believing that God would deliver them from the flood and save them.
> 
> ...



Oh god, you're not serious, are you?


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Bullshit, culture has been around for centuries, that's why he said in this day and age.



And it would be you to misunderstand me on purpose. Religion still has a purpose in this day and age.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> I'd like bible reference for the bolded part.


 Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.



> Also she wanted to become wise. She wanted to gain wisdom. How is that something bad (apart from the disobeying thingy). It is, again, human nature.


 Seeking wisdom isn't wrong, and the Bible never claims that it is. However, the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not a source of wisdom; that was a lie that Eve chose to believe. 



> Without evil, there cannot be subjective good.


 Good doesn't need to be subjective. Actually, "good" is at it's best when it's purely objective. 



> Wrong, evolution is mutations + natural selection + time.


 Mutation = selection + time. Both selection and time are variables, a mutation is the result. 



> Wrong, mutations are random.


 Mutations are complex results that only appear to be random from a limited perspective. 



> Bullshit, life reproduced with mutations. That's a fact (unless you go for the poof-magic explantion once again...)


 Life involves mutations, that much is true. However, life is impossible through purely "natural" means (as I see it, the existence of a Creator-God is quite natural) and the belief that life began without direction is to ignore that very basic fact. 



> Until you give me reason to believe you


 This sounds like troll behavior. 



> Look here, a breef definition of natural science. Important parts bolded:
> 
> Indeed, it says natural. God is supernatural, no matter how hard you facepalm.


 Actually, studying the natural world is what cemented my belief in God. Consider the principles of Quantum Mechanics. QM gives credence to the occurrence of events that seemingly do not have sufficient energy to cause them, which is the definition of a miracle. Also, even if the effects of QM could multiply energy (which it doesn't; QM merely shows us that we don't understand the full potential of energy) it still couldn't explain the genesis of the universe. If there was a point before the Big Bang when nothing existed in this physical four-dimensional realm we call our universe then QM would have nothing to act upon: the old adage that nothing comes from nothing still holds true. 

With String Theory, the idea that there is, in fact, multiple other dimensions which we cannot directly interact with, things become much more interesting.

Then, when you combine the two, a *rational* person comes to the conclusion that natural science not only defends, but _necessitates_, that there is an extra-dimensional force whose power is unfathomable (it can cross dimensions, which is something that could not be accomplished from our end even if all the energy in this universe were harnessed and used to its fullest capacity for that purpose) and is the source of our origin. I like to call that force "God", and I facepalm a lot when people try to use natural science to deny His existence. 

  :   :   :


----------



## T4R0K (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Oh god, you're not serious, are you?



It's just a tale about how too much faith can lead to a bad end. And he didn't say it really happened.


----------



## Azure Ihrat (Mar 27, 2008)

they were praying for her to die, duh

she was a little bitch. of course you're gonna want to disguise your death wish as "seeking alternative healing"

if i were her parents i'd do that too


----------



## Suzume (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Oh god, you're not serious, are you?



What's wrong with the story?  It's a pretty good analogy to this situation, and I've heard it before, it didn't actually happen.  It's more of a teaching story.


----------



## Red Viking (Mar 27, 2008)

T4R0K said:


> It's just a tale about how too much faith can lead to a bad end. And he didn't say it really happened.



Exactly.  People who are too focused on the miracle parts will lose sight of what's in front of them.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 27, 2008)

Tsukiyomi said:


> My analogy was perfectly valid.  In BOTH instances the person can VERY easily save the childs life, but CHOOSES not to for religious reasons.  You simply chose to focus on the unimportant part of my analogy.


 You're comparing a religion of humility which depends on the intervention of a benevolent God to a cult of people who set their children on fire. The former could save more lives by taking responsibility for the events around them, while the latter could prevent senseless death by simply not acting. 

Bad. Analogy. 



> Fine, how about this.  A person who worships germs and chooses not to get life saving treatment for their child based on that.
> 
> Its ludicrous.  If it were for any reason other than religion then people would want their heads for criminal negligence, but just because they said its because of their special invisible man, its suddenly ok.


 Your idea is dangerously close to fascism, if it's not actually fascism. In the States, people are free to act as they please so long as it's not inflicting harm on others. If the dead child's illness was caused by the negligence or actions by the parents, then there would be a basis for criminal charges. They responded to the illness based on their beliefs, but they did not cause it. What you're advocating is the criminalization of thought.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.



I said for the bolded part, but ok, it's obvious that that wasn't canon.



> Seeking wisdom isn't wrong, and the Bible never claims that it is. However, the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not a source of wisdom; that was a lie that *Eve chose to believe*.



A common misconception of believers. You don't choose to believe. You're brain does that job subconsciously.



> Good doesn't need to be subjective. Actually, "good" is at it's best when it's purely objective.



Objective good is inherently flawed, because a human simply deosn't accept something as good if he doesn't think himself that it's good.



> Mutation = selection + time. Both selection and time are variables, a mutation is the result.



No, no, no, no. Please hit your biology teacher on the head with a copy of "The Origin of Species" for me. Mutations are usually copy errors in cell division.



> Mutations are complex results that only appear to be random from a limited perspective.



Mutations are not results. Evolution is the result.



> Life involves mutations, that much is true. However, life is impossible through purely "natural" means (as I see it, the existence of a Creator-God is quite natural) and the belief that life began without direction is to ignore that very basic fact.



Why is life impossible through natural means? What fact are you talking about?



> This sounds like troll behavior.



Actually it's normal sceptic behavior as you haven't provided any evidence why the bible is a historical account, while I have brought evidence against it.



> Actually, studying the natural world is what cemented my belief in God. Consider the principles of Quantum Mechanics. QM gives credence to the occurrence of events that seemingly do not have sufficient energy to cause them, which is the definition of a miracle.



Unexplained phenomenon =/= miracle



> Also, even if the effects of QM could multiply energy (which it doesn't; QM merely shows us that we don't understand the full potential of energy) it still couldn't explain the genesis of the universe. If there was a point before the Big Bang when nothing existed in this physical four-dimensional realm we call our universe then QM would have nothing to act upon: the old adage that nothing comes from nothing still holds true.
> 
> With String Theory, the idea that there is, in fact, multiple other dimensions which we cannot directly interact with, things become much more interesting.
> 
> Then, when you combine the two, a *rational* person comes to the conclusion that natural science not only defends, but _necessitates_, that there is an extra-dimensional force whose power is unfathomable (it can cross dimensions, which is something that could not be accomplished from our end even if all the energy in this universe were harnessed and used to its fullest capacity for that purpose) and is the source of our origin. I like to call that force "God", and I facepalm a lot when people try to use natural science to deny His existence.



Let's call everything in science that we don't understand, yet, "God". It is of course unscientific and you completely miss the point of natural sciences but, yes, it does indeed work.

You just pile up some incomplete hypothesises if yours and use god as magic superglue between them.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

T4R0K said:


> It's just a tale about how too much faith can lead to a bad end. And he didn't say it really happened.



That's not what I meant.



Suzume said:


> What's wrong with the story?  It's a pretty good analogy to this situation, and I've heard it before, it didn't actually happen.  It's more of a teaching story.



What is wrong with the story is that it's been posted about exactly 5 times before in this thread


----------



## Aruarian (Mar 27, 2008)

Nature beats faith!


----------



## T4R0K (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> That's not what I meant.
> 
> 
> 
> What is wrong with the story is that it's been posted about exactly 5 times before in this thread



Oh...  

I really should consider reading whole threads, but this one has grown so fast, I couldn't get myself to do it...


----------



## Red Viking (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> What is wrong with the story is that it's been posted about exactly 5 times before in this thread



And it will continue to be posted until the message sinks in!


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Red Viking said:


> And it will continue to be posted until the message sinks in!





Kyuubi Whisker said:


> It had been raining for days and days. The waters rose so high that one man was forced to climb onto the roof of his house.
> 
> As the waters rose higher, a man in a rowboat appeared, and told him to get in. ?No,? replied the man on the roof. ?I have faith in the Lord; the Lord will save me.? So the man in the rowboat went away. The man on the roof prayed for God to save him.
> 
> ...





HedKandi said:


> This reminds me of this joke that went something like this: a man was drowning (or lost at sea, can?t remember which) and a boat came past, asking him if he needed help.
> 
> The man said, ?No, God will save me?
> 
> ...





Acidblood7 said:


> This reminds me of a story:
> 
> As the land was flooding a man ran on top of the roof and started praying. A boat came to rescue him and he said no thank you, God will save me. So later another boat comes and they say come on get on, and he said no thanks God will save me. So finally the water reaches deep level and a helicopter comes and tries to rescue the guy, and the man say no God will save me. So the man finally drowns, and he ask God why didn't you save me and God responds I did you idiot I sent you 2 boats and a helicopter!
> 
> Some people are complete man utter idiots depend on religion so much they become mindless fools.





Saufsoldat said:


> Wait, I have a better joke:
> 
> When the land was flooding a man ran on his roof and prayed for god to save him. A boat came and wanted to rescue him but he refused and said "God will save me". Later another boat came and offers him help but again he refused saying "God will save me". When the water reached deep level a helicopter came to save him but again he refuses saying "God will save me". So he kept praying until he drowned. When he finally reaches heaven he complains to God why he didn't save him and God suddenly turned into the Flying Spagetthi Monster proclaiming "WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?"
> 
> ...or something along those lines





Red Viking said:


> This reminds me of a story I heard awhile back:
> 
> There was once a flood that devoured a town and left people stranded on their roofs while the water lever kept rising.  One group of people started praying, believing that God would deliver them from the flood and save them.
> 
> ...



Now read them all carefully and tell me if you find any parellels


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Mar 27, 2008)

Simulacrum said:


> You're comparing a religion of humility which depends on the intervention of a benevolent God to a cult of people who set their children on fire. The former could save more lives by taking responsibility for the events around them, while the latter could prevent senseless death by simply not acting.
> 
> Bad. Analogy.



I didn't mention SETTING anyone on fire, so don't put words in my mouth for the sake of you choosing to take an analogy the wrong way and focus on the wrong point.

A religion of humility which depends on the intervention of a benevolent God?  Ok, so suppose I say "I won't get food for my daugher, I'm instead going to pray to god and he'll bring her food" is that somehow ok?  How about if someone breaks into my house and stabs her and I decide I'm not going to get her medical treatment, instead I'll pray to god to heal her?

Its CRIMINAL neglect, plain and simple.



Simulacrum said:


> Your idea is dangerously close to fascism, if it's not actually fascism. In the States, people are free to act as they please so long as it's not inflicting harm on others. If the dead child's illness was caused by the negligence or actions by the parents, then there would be a basis for criminal charges. They responded to the illness based on their beliefs, but they did not cause it. What you're advocating is the criminalization of thought.



You are required as a parent to preserve your childs life, to protect and provide for them.  Its your responsibility and it takes precedent over anything else in your life, otherwise you get your child taken away by the government.

I'm not advocating on criminalization of thought, I'm advocating criminalization of LETTING your child DIE.  Because regardless of their reasoning, thats what they did.  Just like when that vegan couple was charged with negligence when their baby died from malnutrition.


----------



## temporarymadness (Mar 27, 2008)

fanaticism is what made them choose wrong, not faith


----------



## Moonshine (Mar 27, 2008)

I feel bad for this girl who had to have parents like this, she didn't deserve to die. The parents said they didn't pray enough? Did they ever think that maybe medicine would answer their pray from god? There is such thing to believe in god and also modern medicine, because if you believe in god maybe he wanted medicine to be created for diesease and such? He created the world, believers think, so why can't some of them understand this?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 27, 2008)

Mitsuru said:


> I feel bad for this girl who had to have parents like this, she didn't deserve to die. The parents said they didn't pray enough? Did they ever think that maybe medicine would answer their pray from god? There is such thing to believe in god and also modern medicine, because if you believe in god maybe he wanted medicine to be created for diesease and such? He created the world, believers think, so why can't some of them understand this?



But if he wanted the disease to be cured, why did he create it in the first place?


----------



## Moonshine (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> But if he wanted the disease to be cured, why did he create it in the first place?



i don't know. I am actually atheist, so thats why i wrote believers all the time. I tried to post it from  what i thought was a  believer perspective.


----------



## auto-matic (Mar 27, 2008)

Paracetamol Boy said:


> they were praying for her to die, duh
> 
> she was a little bitch. of course you're gonna want to disguise your death wish as "seeking alternative healing"
> 
> if i were her parents i'd do that too



THats really mean?? they could've pretended they're was nothing wrong with her / the parents should burn for their sinns


----------



## Snow (Mar 27, 2008)

God created a flood to kill everyone because he didn't like them.

Yet, people still count on him to help with a sick kid.


----------



## SENTINEL (Mar 27, 2008)

Snow said:


> God created a flood to kill everyone because he didn't like them.
> 
> Yet, people still count on him to help with a sick kid.



what..?

Source?


----------



## DremolitoX (Mar 27, 2008)

Damn these atheists piss me off sometimes....

Religion is not at fault. If these idiots hadn't been Christian, then they would have used some other reason to not bring her to a doctor. _Like "lolol, ie bett dis ilnes hear iz symilar too a comoun cold, sheal pul thru cuz no 1 frum mie famelys dyed frum a cold befor."_


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Mar 27, 2008)

DremolitoX said:


> Damn these atheists piss me off sometimes....
> 
> Religion is not at fault. If these idiots hadn't been Christian, then they would have used some other reason to not bring her to a doctor. _Like "lolol, ie bett dis ilnes hear iz symilar too a comoun cold, sheal pul thru cuz no 1 frum mie famelys dyed frum a cold befor."_



Some other reason?  Like what?

Religion is most certainly to blame because they did it for RELIGIOUS REASONS.  Its pretty clear.


----------



## DremolitoX (Mar 27, 2008)

Tsukiyomi said:


> Some other reason?  Like what?





DremolitoX said:


> Damn these atheists piss me off sometimes....
> 
> Religion is not at fault. If these idiots hadn't been Christian, then they would have used some other reason to not bring her to a doctor. _Like "lolol, ie bett dis ilnes hear iz symilar too a comoun cold, sheal pul thru cuz no 1 frum mie famelys dyed frum a cold befor."_




Hahaha

You just sort of made my day.

Religion is not to blame. They did not do it for religious reasons. They did it out of sheer stupidity. Its not like Christianity promotes these kinds of acts...Christ himself said *"I help those that help themselves."*


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Mar 27, 2008)

DremolitoX said:


> Hahaha
> 
> You just sort of made my day.
> 
> Religion is not to blame. They did not do it for religious reasons. They did it out of sheer stupidity. Its not like Christianity promotes these kinds of acts...Christ himself said *"I help those that help themselves."*



But the atheists will ignore that part of the bible. I already said what you bolded and it was ignored.


Stupidity is to blame, not religion.


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Mar 27, 2008)

DremolitoX said:


> Hahaha
> 
> You just sort of made my day.
> 
> Religion is not to blame. They did not do it for religious reasons. They did it out of sheer stupidity. Its not like Christianity promotes these kinds of acts...Christ himself said *"I help those that help themselves."*



There are religious people that promote this, ever heard of christian scientists?

Religion is what prompted them not to get medical treatment, they were stupid enough to follow it, hence religion is indeed to blame.


----------



## DremolitoX (Mar 27, 2008)

Tsukiyomi said:


> There are religious people that promote this, ever heard of christian scientists?
> 
> Religion is what prompted them not to get medical treatment, they were stupid enough to follow it, hence religion is indeed to blame.



Hmm I usually don't post like this, but, whatever.

Who cares what people say? Their stupidity will cause them to twist and turn words in the bible, just like how these people did.


Again, no its not. You may think that way, but like I said in my two posts you quoted, these people manipulated religion with stupidity.

Ive explained it already. These people would have acted on different motives had religion not existed:


> Religion is not at fault. If these idiots hadn't been Christian, then they would have used some other reason to not bring her to a doctor. Like "lolol, ie bett dis ilnes hear iz symilar too a comoun cold, sheal pul thru cuz no 1 frum mie famelys dyed frum a cold befor."


Why? Because their *stupidity* drove them to it.


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Mar 27, 2008)

DremolitoX said:


> Hmm I usually don't post like this, but, whatever.
> 
> Who cares what people say?* Their stupidity will cause them to twist and turn words in the bible, just like how these people did.*
> 
> ...



By that logic, the bible and religion has never caused anything good or bad.  Good people would have otherwise done good and bad people would have otherwise done bad, religion is therefore meaningless.


----------



## The Sentry (Mar 27, 2008)

Tsukiyomi said:


> There are religious people that promote this, ever heard of christian scientists?
> 
> Religion is what prompted them not to get medical treatment, they were stupid enough to follow it, hence religion is indeed to blame.



How did religion promote it. Did the Bible say when someone is sick and about to die do not seek medical treatment?


----------



## DremolitoX (Mar 27, 2008)

Tsukiyomi said:


> By that logic, the bible and religion has never caused anything good or bad.  Good people would have otherwise done good and bad people would have otherwise done bad, religion is therefore meaningless.



The New testament only encourages good actions. It does not promote violence whatsoever.

If some regular idiot _somehow_ manages to go out and kill their neighbor because the bible said "Love your neighbor," well then...what the hell? How is the bible responsible for this action of the idiot? It clearly speaks against this action.

If I give you 1000 dollars to take to a local charity because for some reason I can't, but instead you go out, buy a gun, and shoot a school up, does that make me evil? Even though I never encouraged you to do violence.

My point is this:
*The New Testament is only capable of influencing positive actions. Until it tells you to go out and kill people, drop the debate*


----------



## Sasori (Mar 27, 2008)

batanga said:


> Yaaaay... -1 to god.


More like God is facepalming.


----------



## Masaki (Mar 27, 2008)

> The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.
> 
> "They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."



I'm sorry, but seeing your sibling die due to your parents' incompetence is abuse enough by my book.  Are these people waiting for these kids to get terminally ill before they take them away from the parents?


----------



## Coteaz (Mar 27, 2008)

DremolitoX said:


> My point is this:
> *The New Testament is only capable of influencing positive actions. Until it tells you to go out and kill people, drop the debate*


It clearly states that anyone who disagrees with your 'god' gets tortured for all eternity.

Damn, that's positive.



			
				The Sentry said:
			
		

> How did religion promote it. Did the Bible say when someone is sick and about to die do not seek medical treatment?


Their stupidity was given the go-ahead by their religion. "Why take the daughter to the clinic when all we have to do is pray?"


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Mar 27, 2008)

Coteaz said:


> It clearly states that anyone who disagrees with your 'god' gets tortured for all eternity.
> 
> Damn, that's positive.
> 
> ...



I'll say it again. God helps those who helps themselves. They didn't help themselves.

So their stupidity wasn't given the go-ahead by Christianity


----------



## DremolitoX (Mar 27, 2008)

Coteaz said:


> It clearly states that anyone who disagrees with your 'god' gets tortured for all eternity.
> 
> Damn, that's positive.
> 
> ...



That's extremely positive. If you go out against God, what does that mean? It means that you are doing everything you aren't supposed to, like rape, murder, etc. I don't see how anybody can disagree that such things are not acceptable

No it wasn't. For the second time, *"I help those that help themeselves."* In case you can't think, that means that Jesus discourages you to pray for what you want.


----------



## Coteaz (Mar 27, 2008)

Giovanni Rild said:


> I'll say it again. God helps those who helps themselves. They didn't help themselves.
> 
> So their stupidity wasn't given the go-ahead by Christianity





DremolitoX said:


> No it wasn't. For the second time, *"I help those that help themeselves."* In case you can't think, that means that Jesus discourages you to pray for what you want.


Why even bother with prayer then? If your 'god' won't help no matter how much you beg and plead, there really is no reason to waste one's time with meaningless mutterings. 

Do whatever deed needs to be done yourself, without relying on some magical friend.

EDIT - I am so stupid. How could I forget the amazing line of "Ask and it shall be given"...my parent's church loves to repeat that. Over and over.



> That's extremely positive. If you go out against God, what does that mean? It means that you are doing everything you aren't supposed to, like rape, murder, etc. I don't see how anybody can disagree that such things are not acceptable




Oddly enough, I don't rape or murder. Yet I am destined for some 'hell', while convicted murderers and rapists 'repent' and are bound for 'heaven'.

Why? Because I have a different viewpoint. I don't see the need for some all-powerful being to explain things we cannot. Thus, I am sentenced to infinite pain.

That's the true message of Jesus: *Disagree and burn.*


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Mar 27, 2008)

Coteaz said:


> Why even bother with prayer then? If your 'god' won't help no matter how much you beg and plead, there really is no reason to waste one's time with meaningless mutterings.
> 
> Do whatever deed needs to be done yourself, without relying on some magical friend.
> 
> ...




You don't understand. What is meant by "God helps those who helps themselves" is that you take the first step in helping yourself and God will take the second step.


----------



## DremolitoX (Mar 27, 2008)

Coteaz said:


> Why even bother with prayer then? If your 'god' won't help no matter how much you beg and plead, there really is no reason to waste one's time with meaningless mutterings.
> 
> Do whatever deed needs to be done yourself, without relying on some magical friend.
> 
> ...



I sure as hell don't pray. God knows what I feel

I am well aware that God won't intervene until the end.

If you are generally a good person, then there is no reason for you to be sent to hell. What the hell do I know though....well, I do know one thing. An all loving God will judge you on your person and actions, not on what god you believe in.

As for the murderer repenting thing... I really can't say how that works, except for the fact that just saying sorry should in no way pardon you.

Well, if you disagree with the basic principles of Christianity, then yea, you should go ahead and burn. If you do agree with the principles and are a non believer then I would say youre ok. That's just how I view Christianity though.

Damn. All these colors sure are making me look gay.


----------



## Tleilaxu (Mar 27, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> But if he wanted the disease to be cured, why did he create it in the first place?



I believe that there are diseases and other bad things because God wants us to overcome them ourselves, in other words become closer to perfection, While he lends some moral support here and there.having said that I think God would have preferred that the family get medical treatment for the child instead of sitting on their asses.

In short God wants people to begin the process of getting help and then he will workout and arrange the finer detailes like the doctors giving the child medicine and supportive care, but ONLY if the family takes that first step and brings the child to the doctor in the first place.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> I believe that there are diseases and other bad things because God wants us to overcome them ourselves, in other words become closer to perfection, While he lends some moral support here and there.having said that I think God would have preferred that the family get medical treatment for the child instead of sitting on their asses.
> 
> In short God wants people to begin the process of getting help and then he will workout and arrange the finer detailes like the doctors giving the child medicine and supportive care, but ONLY if the family takes that first step and brings the child to the doctor in the first place.



Yeah that's why billions of people die from terminal diseases. Because god wanted them to overcome it. Your logic might work for white middle class families with health insurance, but everyone else is fucked then.


----------



## Snow (Mar 28, 2008)

SENTINEL said:


> what..?
> 
> Source?



Some book.

I think Oprah's book club read it one week.

Hell if I remember the name.


----------



## 海外ニキ (Mar 28, 2008)

Seek fucking medical help, THEN you can pray for her good health.


What the bloody hell?


----------



## Vangelis (Mar 28, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Somehow, these accounts never fail to sicken me.
> 
> How can someone just _sit there doing nothing_, begging _God_ to do something when they have all the miracles of modern medicine right here on Earth? I'm not a terribly religious person, but I could see praying for someone... _after_ you take them to the fucking hospital for treatment.
> 
> There's a reason why she died. Did no one ever tell these brain-dead morons that God helps those who help themselves?



Exactly, couldnt have said it better myself.


----------



## Jagon Fox (Mar 28, 2008)

Giovanni Rild said:


> I'll say it again. God helps those who helps themselves. They didn't help themselves.
> 
> So their stupidity wasn't given the go-ahead by Christianity



actually it doesn't have jack squat to do with helping themselves! They are the parents, they are in charge of their kids overall good health! and should be charged with gross negligence



OT Dremolitox I don't worship your God, not everyone does but that doesn't mean that non christias are a bunch of moralless, cruel sex predators and murderers! get over yourself


----------



## Aldrick (Mar 28, 2008)

> Seek fucking medical help



Having with sex with nurses cures cancer


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2008)

DremolitoX said:


> If you are generally a good person, then there is no reason for you to be sent to hell. What the hell do I know though....well, I do know one thing. An all loving God will judge you on your person and actions, not on what god you believe in.
> 
> As for the murderer repenting thing... I really can't say how that works, except for the fact that just saying sorry should in no way pardon you.



Jesus disagrees:



			
				John 14:6 said:
			
		

> Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: *no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.*





			
				John 3:18 said:
			
		

> *He that believeth on him is not condemned*: but *he that believeth not is condemned already*, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.



Effectively, that means: No Jesus, no heaven


----------



## Aldrick (Mar 28, 2008)

Can we debate less and laugh more?


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Mar 28, 2008)

Aldrick said:


> Can we debate less and laugh more?



This shit isn't a laughing matter.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2008)

Giovanni Rild said:


> This shit isn't a laughing matter.



A very subjective interpretation


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Mar 28, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> A very subjective interpretation



Oh, you think the death of a innocent child is funny?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2008)

Giovanni Rild said:


> Oh, you think the death of a innocent child is funny?



Not generally, but in this case...

Meh, humans die, children die. If I'd really feel sorry for every innocent person dying, I would've committed suicide a long time ago


----------



## saint_Reginold (Mar 28, 2008)

sad... It's too bad her parents were fools.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Mar 28, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Not generally, but in this case...
> 
> Meh, humans die, children die. If I'd really feel sorry for every innocent person dying, I would've committed suicide a long time ago



Well unlike you, I feel sorrow for every innocent person that is taken from this world unjustly.

I may not feel their loss like someone close to me, but I still feel it

Shit may happen, but don't lose your humanity and become heartless and apathetic


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2008)

Giovanni Rild said:


> Well unlike you, I feel sorrow for every innocent person that is taken from this world unjustly.
> 
> I may not feel their loss like someone close to me, but I still feel it
> 
> Shit may happen, but don't lose your humanity and become heartless and apathetic



I would become heartless and apathetic if I'd feel sorrow for all those strangers dying. I'd just get used to it.

If I don't know them, I don't care about them.


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Mar 28, 2008)

this is so sad 

I fail to understand why people stop using their brains just because they think that they found god.


----------



## Simulacrum (Mar 28, 2008)

Tsukiyomi said:


> I didn't mention SETTING anyone on fire, so don't put words in my mouth for the sake of you choosing to take an analogy the wrong way and focus on the wrong point.
> 
> A religion of humility which depends on the intervention of a benevolent God?  Ok, so suppose I say "I won't get food for my daugher, I'm instead going to pray to god and he'll bring her food" is that somehow ok?  How about if someone breaks into my house and stabs her and I decide I'm not going to get her medical treatment, instead I'll pray to god to heal her?
> 
> Its CRIMINAL neglect, plain and simple.


  It's clearly stated in the New Testament that faith without work is dead. Of all the instances where divine intervention happens, it's only when the efforts of people just aren't enough - not when people just want to push God into granting their wishes, and whenever that's the intention bad things tend to happen. 



> You are required as a parent to preserve your childs life, to protect and provide for them.  Its your responsibility and it takes precedent over anything else in your life, otherwise you get your child taken away by the government.
> 
> I'm not advocating on criminalization of thought, I'm advocating criminalization of LETTING your child DIE.  Because regardless of their reasoning, thats what they did.  Just like when that vegan couple was charged with negligence when their baby died from malnutrition.


 Preservation is not the same as protection. This is where you're becoming disconnected. And while you might not be directly advocating the criminalization of thought, that is what this amounts to. But now I've become curious: you seem so vehement about preservation of life, so what are your thoughts about abortion?


----------



## Ichiban-nin (Mar 28, 2008)

> The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.


Divine beings are not man's shortcut to solving problems. I'm neutral on the atheism/religious scale but anyone who is actually smart on the spectrum should realise that asking someone like God to solve your problems will result in no response.

God is not your repairman, will not pay your bills, cannot make you cool etc. Anything that you can do yourself should be done by yourself. Don't Christians praise honest work? So yeah, only stupid people will pray for things that can be easily achieved in alternative ways. The parents had their chance, maybe this death will eventually lead them to change their way of thinking.


----------



## Atema (Mar 28, 2008)

GOD KNOWS THE GIRL MUST DIE.

Also, if you're in their religion, they just say "No, there must be a reason for her death and we won't question it" .


----------



## Watchman (Mar 28, 2008)

Whilst an interesting debate, this is rather off-topic.

On-Topic:

Stupid parents, poor girl. Tragedy.

It's not necessarily Christianity's fault, merely the stupidity of the parents.


----------



## DremolitoX (Mar 28, 2008)

DremolitoX said:


> Jesus stands for love, tolerance, etc. What those quotes mean is that none that don't believe in these traits may come unto the Father. But if you aren't willing to accept that then we will just around in circles. No one will win this.



I'll stand by this quote. How anyone can oppose such a tolerant view is beyond me.


Saufsoldat said:


> Without any scripture supporting your claims. I backed up my claims, you didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fuck, you don't need scriptures when I have common sense. Tell me an instance when I ignored a post I was supposed to respond to. RIIIGHHTTTT you won't find any!!

Ive got to go anyways.


----------



## Dimezanime88 (Mar 28, 2008)

This plot-hole coverage known as "god helps those who help themselves" is sickening. People need to stop making excuses just so they can remain faithful to their beliefs. The parents were ridiculous.


----------



## FrostXian (Mar 28, 2008)

This happens all the time, all around the world. 
It brings us to the question, is God a jerk, powerless, or does he have something else in mind?


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Mar 28, 2008)

Dimezanime19 said:


> This plot-hole coverage known as "god helps those who help themselves" is sickening. People need to stop making excuses just so they can remain faithful to their beliefs. The parents were ridiculous.



Call it what you what, but God really helps those who helps themselves. It's no excuse.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2008)

Giovanni Rild said:


> Call it what you what, but God really helps those who helps themselves. It's no excuse.



I helped myself all my life. Call it what you want but god really never helped me.


----------



## Hwon (Mar 28, 2008)

Giovanni Rild said:


> Call it what you what, but God really helps those who helps themselves. It's no excuse.



No, you only assume God helps those who help themselves.  You don't know how.  You don't know when.  You have no way of observing it.  You can't test it.  You don't know anything.  You just claim it then shrug off any need to substantiate it to others and to yourself.  All that can be said about it is that you believe it like faith is some kind of validation.  

Those parents had faith.  They believed everything to the point they let their child die.  Even after their child died they still believe.  Faith blinds people.  Faith blinds you.


----------



## lord_itachi (Mar 28, 2008)

i know a christian guy whose dad is a priest...
when he gets sick, his dad takes him to the hospital/doctor and prays that it works...
that makes a little more sense, no?


----------



## Tatsuki (Mar 28, 2008)

Some people compared this with ghost in a shell. Parents are strict in religion, let the son die and the son comes back to kill them as a robot XD

Seriously, if you believe in god, believe in him. He'll help you, only if you work hard.
Like, pray, but still get the treatment, and thank him that she was cured 8D


----------



## impersonal (Mar 28, 2008)

In other news:

_Parents seek medical help instead of praying, girl dies_


----------



## Hothien (Mar 28, 2008)

Hugo_Pratt said:


> In other news:
> 
> _Parents seek medical help instead of praying, girl dies_



I assume that was sarcasm.

The form of diabetes that this woman has is easily treatable with insulin. Medicine held the answers, yet they turned to religion, instead, and watched her die.


----------



## Amane Misa (Mar 28, 2008)

> "A religious man is on top of a roof during a great flood. A man comes by in a boat and says "get in, get in!" The religous man replies, " no I have faith in God, he will grant me a miracle."
> 
> Later the water is up to his waist and another boat comes by and the guy tells him to get in again. He responds that he has faith in god and god will give him a miracle. With the water at about chest high, another boat comes to rescue him, but he turns down the offer again cause "God will grant him a miracle."
> 
> With the water at chin high, a helicopter throws down a ladder and they tell him to get in, mumbling with the water in his mouth, he again turns down the request for help for the faith of God. He arrives at the gates of heaven with broken faith and says to Peter, I thought God would grand me a miracle and I have been let down." St. Peter chuckles and responds, "I don't know what you're complaining about, we sent you three boats and a helicopter."



I think that pretty much expresses my views on this subject. Faith is one thing, but blind trust in something that you don't KNOW exists, now that's just ignorant. Any Christian (or any religious person) with a sense of reality, rational thought, an open mind will accept that they don't KNOW that what they believe in exists. We KNOW that the medicine given to diabetics works. How these people can truly put their child in danger through this sheer small minded stupidity is absolutely beyond me.

I want to make clear that I'm not bashing religious people. Just those who have no perspective. This blind belief makes me sick. Challenge your faith, and THEN, if you still believe, that's great. But believing just because you're told to from when you were born, programmed to believe....is that true belief? Think, people!


----------



## Tleilaxu (Mar 28, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Yeah that's why billions of people die from terminal diseases. Because god wanted them to overcome it. Your logic might work for white middle class families with health insurance, but everyone else is fucked then.



He wants us to cure the disease, and yes people die from diseases all the time, I do not support what the parents did and was trying to explain in the best way I could what I thought of all this...

In short the parents fail utterly.


----------



## impersonal (Mar 28, 2008)

Willaien said:


> I assume that was sarcasm.
> 
> The form of diabetes that this woman has is easily treatable with insulin. Medicine held the answers, yet they turned to religion, instead, and watched her die.



It wasn't sarcasm. I sure would go for medical help. But I was expressing the point of view of those terrible parents who let their daughter die. How many times do parents send their daughter to a doctor instead of praying - only to see her die?

From a scientific point of view, only a probabilistic study can tell us which works. I'm not even going into the justification of the use of probabilistic studies.

The point I'm making is that the reason most people don't pray their daughter to death is not intelligence, it's just sheep-like behavior.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 28, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> He wants us to cure the disease



"Hey, ima gonna create some diseases so people will find ways to cure them in some tenthousand years  until then hundreds of billions will have died, but i rly wanna see some humans cure those diseases i created "

Sounds like a truly benevolent god...


----------



## Pringer Lagann (Mar 28, 2008)

Dumb ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)


----------



## Hwon (Mar 28, 2008)

I'm going to make a drastic assumption that life saving medical treatments have the same rate of success and failure with or without prayer.  Inversely, I would be making the assumption that survival rates without life saving medical treatments would be the same with or without prayer.


----------



## Verdius (Mar 28, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> "Hey, ima gonna create some diseases so people will find ways to cure them in some tenthousand years  until then hundreds of billions will have died, but i rly wanna see some humans cure those diseases i created "
> 
> Sounds like a truly benevolent god...



You don't know anything at all do you? He wants us to help ourselves and to learn and to do that he gave us those diseases.

beh

There's always some way for them to wiggle out of a tight spot by pulling assumptions from out of their asses. It's so pointless to even argue.


----------



## Dementia (Mar 28, 2008)

Religion is worse than terrorism. 

No, seriously, all bad things seem to come from it.


----------



## batanga (Mar 28, 2008)

Pringer Lagann said:


> Dumb ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)



/thread

1111


----------



## Hwon (Mar 28, 2008)

Dementia said:


> Religion is worse than terrorism.
> 
> No, seriously, all bad things seem to come from it.



Religion is a place where bad ideas and beliefs are safe to grow and fester because they are disgused by people's own rationalizations that doing something for or because of God must be right.


----------



## lunar rainbow (Mar 28, 2008)

Her parents are idiots... You can't rely on god to fix all your problems. You could pray to god for support, but you have to fix your problems yourself.


----------



## Lilykt7 (Mar 28, 2008)

If it was treatable they should have taken her to a doctors. Praying for a terminaly ill patient in the hospital are anyone thats really sick is normal, going to that extreme and depending on miracles alone isn't a good idea.


----------



## tryagain (Mar 29, 2008)

i hope they lost faith in god now


----------



## Neco (Mar 29, 2008)

Dementia said:


> Religion is worse than terrorism.
> 
> No, seriously, all bad things seem to come from it.



Most terrorism comes from religion, think of extremists, the crusades, holy wars though the centuries the list goes on.  Most the violence in this world can be directly tied to religion.

WW2 = Religion


----------



## Hubbahubba (Mar 29, 2008)

I think god wants you to not be stupid and the the right thing, not pray.


----------



## Giorno Giovannax (Mar 29, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> I'm not conceding anything, I simply never claimed that religion caused this. For the third time I just said that it wouldn't have happened without religion. There are a lot of people on this planet who are stupid and ignorant. Many of them have kids but we don't hear about kids dying every day because their parents were stupid, do we? No, here their stupidity collided with delusion about a higher power magically interfering in their lives.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I understand that but my point is that people are blaming this mostly on religion beliefs as if religion was 80% of the cause and stupidity and ignorance were 20% of the cause combined, and that is not true because nowhere in the Bible does it say for people to not bring their loved one to a hospital if they are sick. And also, that was the point of my question and I repeat: Would this have happened if the parents believed in God but were also intelligent? And so far, no one has answered it and the fact that you don't hear about incidents like that much on the news proves my point that believing in God was not the main cause and in fact was the tertiary cause for it and I would even say that their religious views were highly twisted from the normal view of religion and thus makes religion less of a cause for all this. In the end, it was their stupidity and ignorance that was the main cause, no matter how much you want to believe otherwise.

2. First of all, where did I blame God? And what does that sentence have to do with our conversation?  Also, the doctors (and first of all, where is your proof that they were atheists?) obviously lied to my mother since I have never been in my life diagnosed with Down Syndrome. Hell, I wasn't even born with it so my question, where did they get this idea that I would be born with it? I know, they made up that idea in order to force my mom into not having me anymore. You do know that people, no matter of their profession, can lie to their clients, right? And also, can you prove to me that I would be here talking to you if my mom didn't pray? Can you? And where did you get that 99% that they are right without god telling them? Do you have evidence? Interviews? 


3. Yes because in those "stupid" stories, it said to let your loved one die while all you do is pray instead of bringing them to a doctor and it also said for them to pray for resurrection of that person if they do die. Right...

And don't bring the story of Lazarus, it is a totally different story.

4. Your Argument: Trying to prove that religion was the main cause of this incident. You can hide it all you want but your posts pretty much lead me to this conclusion.


@Tokoyami:

Did even you bother trying to understand the jest of my argument? Obviously you didn't because nowhere did I even insinuate that every medical breakthrough is an act of God or a miracle. Besides, a miracle is an impossibility or unlikely event becoming a possibility or true and I don't recall the advancements in medicine being described as miracles. All I said was that when people pray for the health of a loved one, for example, to overcome a disease or have a successful operation, they pray to God for his help and then God will then use the doctors to answer that person's prayer unless it's their time to go and I speak from experience because I've seen it happen multiple times. Again, I never downplayed medicine or its advancements.

@MilkeyWinters: I will ask this question again and this time, in large fonts:

*IF THE PARENTS WERE INTELLIGENT AND RELIGIOUS, WOULD THAT HAVE HAPPENED?*

Simple question and I know its hard for some of you to actually believe that a belief in God does not decrease your intelligence or that intellectuals can believe in God (I have to this day yet to understand where this claim ever come from) but just answer me that question? 

Dude, I trust God and I believe in him, but you'll never see me or any other Christian do what this couple did unless we are complete morons or just straight retarded. Even the BIBLE doesn't approve of what they did! Doesn't that ring a bell in your head? And yet, people still want to bash religion and make it the main cause of that and excuse their stupidity and ignorance? Yes, their belief in God did factor into their decision, true even though it was highly misguided, but the main causes of it all and what ultimately influenced everything was their STUPIDITY. If they weren't so stupid, they would have brought their daughter to a doctor and then pray for her health and await the results.

@Coteaz:

1. First of all, you don't pray and then do nothing and expect something to happen. No one in the Bible that I recall just prayed and then did nothing. Since the basis of Christianity is to build a relationship with God, a relationship cannot be one-sided. You cannot expect God to do everything for you, it works both ways. God will provide for you but you're the one who then has to take what God has provided for you. 

2. You don't take what is said in the Bible and use it for your own selfish agenda or try to twist what is said in the Bible to fit your views. The Bible supports that as well since it warns multiple times of false preachers.

3. You don't do what is opposite of what is in the Bible and then say that it was in the name of God.

4. Christianity doesn't make life easy for you or coddle you and if you belive so then you are sadly mistaken. It is not a band-aid for your life but does build a character that helps you in life. The Bible again supports that since no one was ever coddle or had an easy life in the Bible.

5. Expecting God to give you cars, women, riches is a delusion. God provides what is necessary for you  and provides it at the right time.

6. There is no such thing as blind faith. Every Christian have faith or trust in God because of personal experiences.

7. All you have to do is to trust God (just like you trust any other people or yourself), love him, and live your life according to his word in order to correctly use Christianity.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 29, 2008)

Religion was just as important as the parents' stupidity. Without either of the two none of this would've happened.


----------



## Giorno Giovannax (Mar 29, 2008)

Konoha no Kīroi Senkō said:


> Most terrorism comes from religion, think of extremists, the crusades, holy wars though the centuries the list goes on.  Most the violence in this world can be directly tied to religion.
> 
> *WW2 = Religion*






You have GOT to be kidding me? WW2 was started for multiple reasons but the biggest reasons were fanatical nationalism (Japan and Italy mostly) and racism (Germany). Please brush up on your history before saying stupid things like this again. 

Again, for the non-bolded events like the crusades or extremists, it is people using religion for their own selfish means and twisting it around to make it match their own ideology or perception of reality that led to all of those, not the beliefs themselves.


----------



## Giorno Giovannax (Mar 29, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Religion was just as important as the parents' stupidity. Without either of the two none of this would've happened.



And yet you still haven't answered my question...How strange.

And I don't disagree that religion had something to do with this but it was not the greater cause of all this like people assume it is. I don't see how hard is that to understand but I guess when people just hate or dislike religion, they can't see that.

Here's my question again:

*WOULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED IF THE PARENTS WERE INTELLIGENT AND RELIGIOUS?*


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 29, 2008)

Giorno Giovanna said:


> *WOULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED IF THE PARENTS WERE INTELLIGENT AND RELIGIOUS?*



Obviously not but shouldn't religion be foolproof if you're even allowed to teach it to little children?


----------



## dreams lie (Mar 29, 2008)

The parents aren't even getting fined.


----------



## MaxJenius (Mar 29, 2008)

Why can't God keep the kid alive by inspiring man to create newer medical technologies? People need to use common sense.


----------



## Rod (Mar 29, 2008)

Giovanni Rild said:


> God helps those who helps themselves. The point is to help yourself before asking for God's help



QFT

I believe in god too since im a catholic

but some ppl are just fanatics...


----------



## Verdius (Mar 29, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Obviously not but shouldn't religion be foolproof if you're even allowed to teach it to little children?



Not true, it all depends on how devout they are and how literally they take their religion. They can be intelligent but then when it comes to religion they can drop off all rational at the door for it.


----------



## Get F*cked Stud (Mar 30, 2008)

Maybe now they will have the common sense to now believe that their silly god doesn't exist.


----------



## Disturbia (Mar 30, 2008)

I can' t believe this...


----------



## Rated R Superstar (Mar 30, 2008)

I believe in God, but I do not believe in praying. I dont think it works, like people say. It was stupid for the parents to think it would actually work.


----------



## ZeroBlack (Mar 30, 2008)

i believe in God but this is juz 

of course could it be stated that their stupidity was a result of their religious fanaticism =/


----------



## Axl Low (Mar 30, 2008)

Well, maybe she is meeting God right since you two fail as parents.


----------



## Die (Mar 30, 2008)

fanaticism.... aaaaa a sad thing, sometimes drives people mad and takes the reason of of them...

-_- These persons FAIL as parents


----------



## fieryfalcon (Mar 30, 2008)

I fail to see what all the hubbub is about.  Sounds like a late term abortion to me.

Seriously, people have a right to be stupid; the law recognizes the right to refuse medical care and children are wards of their parents.  Additionally, the law does not recognize nonfeasance in these kinds of situations.


----------



## Jackal (Mar 30, 2008)




----------



## maximilyan (Mar 31, 2008)

Damn, why doesnt God take his chances to show and prove when they arise?

poor little girl.


----------



## Dimezanime88 (Apr 3, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> "Hey, ima gonna create some diseases so people will find ways to cure them in some tenthousand years  until then hundreds of billions will have died, but i rly wanna see some humans cure those diseases i created "
> 
> Sounds like a truly benevolent god...


----------



## mister_manji (Apr 3, 2008)

CrimemasterGogo said:


> Sadly my parents are the same, my Father never goes to doctors, he always say's "I leave it to God".
> 
> *Even God can't cure stupidity*



God cures those stupid enough to depend on faith-healing by killing them.

If god does exist, then he doesn't give a shit about us, so don't waste your time on him, and instead invest in god's true miracle: modern medicine


----------



## Alucard (Apr 4, 2008)

ignorant fanatics....i may not like religion at all..but i do respect it.( except the fanatics of course )

its funny when they try to disprove proven science


----------



## Adonis (Apr 4, 2008)

Giovanni Rild said:


> God helps those who helps themselves.



You do realize that's a Benjamin Franklin quote that appears nowhere in your Bible in any form, right? Also, note that Ben Franklin was deist...

In other words, 

Plus, frankly, have people ever stopped to think that maybe "helping yourself" does the helping?


----------



## ~Shin~ (Apr 4, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Obviously not but shouldn't religion be foolproof if you're even allowed to teach it to little children?



What the hell kind of logical fallacy is this? Anything that's taught to children are supposed to be "foolproof"? 

Yeah....okay. Try something other than strawman. 



Adonis said:


> You do realize that's a Benjamin Franklin quote that appears nowhere in your Bible, right? Also, note that Ben Franklin was deist...
> 
> In other words,



So in other words, you have no way to counter it so you're using some red herring bullshit? 

sigh



Ichiban-nin said:


> Divine beings are not man's shortcut to solving problems. I'm neutral on the atheism/religious scale but anyone who is actually smart on the spectrum should realise that asking someone like God to solve your problems will result in no response.
> 
> God is not your repairman, will not pay your bills, cannot make you cool etc. Anything that you can do yourself should be done by yourself. Don't Christians praise honest work? So yeah, only stupid people will pray for things that can be easily achieved in alternative ways. The parents had their chance, maybe this death will eventually lead them to change their way of thinking.



IS THAT SOME COMMON SENSE I SEE????

Seriously this is all there is to it. I'm no religious fanatic but goddamn someone dies because a prayer doesn't work and people just point the finger at God? If you want to point the finger to anybody, point it to the idiots who didn't think and spread their own view of religious bullshit. Seriously this shit's pathetic. Every time something bad happens, it's "WHERE IS YOUR GOD NAO?" Instead of that ask yourself "WHERE IS YOUR FUCKING BRAIN?"


----------



## The Question (Apr 4, 2008)

Who's to say that the medical treatment wasn't the answer to their prayers?  Most miracles in life don't come with flashy thunder and lightning (if they do, I'd like to know), they're done through ordinary people doing ordinary (and some times extraodinary) things.  My personal belief is that God _does_ provide the answers to most of our prayers...we just can't be blind to them.

We may not always get what we want, but we'll get what we need.

Besides, why ask God for help if you're perfectly capable of having it done yourself?


----------



## fghj (Apr 4, 2008)

Konoha no Kīroi Senkō said:


> Most terrorism comes from religion, think of extremists, the crusades, holy wars though the centuries the list goes on.  Most the violence in this world can be directly tied to religion.
> 
> WW2 = Religion


5/10                .


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 4, 2008)

~Shin~ said:


> What the hell kind of logical fallacy is this? Anything that's taught to children are supposed to be "foolproof"?
> 
> Yeah....okay. Try something other than strawman.



Strawman? So you're saying we should be allowed to teach dangerous stuff to kids that might kill them or others?


----------



## Willy Wonka (Apr 4, 2008)

poor kid ._. im not a big fan of med. but if it keeps me alive ill take it!


----------



## Tunafish (Apr 5, 2008)

Nothing will happen unless you make it happen.
God is just there to give us something to believe in when we're lost.

Apparently, they see otherwise.


----------



## Adonis (Apr 5, 2008)

~Shin~ said:


> So in other words, you have no way to counter it so you're using some red herring bullshit?



Counter? I just called him out for using the opinion of a deist to support his Christian dogma; how thoroughly do you expect me to counter it?

Are you fucking stupid or something?

Rild attempted to rationalize God's absence and failed. 

Plus, does no one else find it suspicious God only works his miracles after you do the work yourself? Ever stop to think that maybe doing the work did it and there was no divine intervention?

If you're talking about the legitimacy of prayer, it doesn't work and it's as simple as that. At best, prayer has the same effect as meditation.


----------



## Aldrick (Apr 5, 2008)

> im not a big fan of med.



Don't tell me your into homeopathic bullshit.


----------



## Dimezanime88 (Apr 5, 2008)

Adonis said:


> You do realize that's a Benjamin Franklin quote that appears nowhere in your Bible in any form, right? Also, note that Ben Franklin was deist...
> 
> In other words,


 
Really? I'm gonna have to look more into that.


----------



## Pilaf (Apr 5, 2008)

Aldrick said:


> Don't tell me your into homeopathic bullshit.



 lol..it doesn't have to mean that. I'm not a big fan of medications either...I don't like how they make me feel. I'd prefer to have a clean system so I avoid them unless I need them.


----------



## ~Shin~ (Apr 5, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Strawman? So you're saying we should be allowed to teach dangerous stuff to kids that might kill them or others?



Again, STRAWMAN. 

Instead of answering what Giorno Giovanna said, you just added your own question. Which was "If they were intelligent and religious, would they do something like that?"

Pretty simple question really.



Adonis said:


> Counter? I just called him out for using the opinion of a deist to support his Christian dogma; how thoroughly do you expect me to counter it?



Oh gee I don't know. How about actually counter the argument not the source of it? 

Sounds like a wonderful idea, AMIRITE?



> Are you fucking stupid or something?



U MAD?

And fucking ironic that you neg me for getting "emotional". Go listen to your Linkin' Park.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 5, 2008)

~Shin~ said:


> Again, STRAWMAN.
> 
> Instead of answering what Giorno Giovanna said, you just added your own question. Which was "If they were intelligent and religious, would they do something like that?"
> 
> Pretty simple question really.



_Instead_ of answering? Maybe you should've read my post:



Saufsoldat said:


> *Obviously not* but shouldn't religion be foolproof if you're even allowed to teach it to little children?



Yes, that was an answer right there. Might surprise you now but it's true and with some training you can even learn how to identify answers on your own.


----------



## ~Shin~ (Apr 5, 2008)

And again you might want to go do some research on fallacies and learn what strawman is.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 5, 2008)

Having debated christians for quite some time, I know pretty well what a strawman is. (Take offense, please)

If you're not going to say anything other than "ZOMG, it's a strawman" we might as well end this as you have obviously no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## Adonis (Apr 5, 2008)

~Shin~ said:


> Oh gee I don't know. How about actually counter the argument not the source of it?
> 
> Sounds like a wonderful idea, AMIRITE?



The source is relevant, retard, because he's using an argument that has no basis in his religion, which he's arguing the legitimacy of. The logical question would be "How do you know?" Don't get me wrong, the Bible, even if it were in there, would be a shoddy base but at least it'd be understandable. As is, Rild's argument boils down to, "Ben Franklin said so!"

The point was that using Deist quotes to validate a Christian standpoint is fallacious.

As for the content of the claim, it's asinine. To assume not only does God exist but he operates in such a way is presumptuous. It's a petty rationalization to explain why God, being omnibenevolent and omnipotent, "lets" (put in quotes to emphasize I don't personally believe a fictitious being permits anything) people, good people, fall flat on their face. You argue, God would have helped had the family sought medical attention. I say, crazy thoughts, it's the DOCTORS and MEDICINE doing all of the work. To appeal to divine intervention at this point is vain and hypocritical.




> U MAD?
> 
> And fucking ironic that you neg me for getting "emotional". Go listen to your Linkin' Park.



Linkin Park? Really? That's the best you can do? You'll be happy to know I don't have such shitty taste in music nor am I "emo".

In response to your neg rep:

This

I'M NOT YOUR BUDDY, GUY!


----------



## Miki Aiko (Apr 5, 2008)

Prayed for healing? Like faith healing? 

I feel sorry for the kid.


----------



## Pilaf (Apr 5, 2008)

Spoken said:


> Prayed for healing? Like faith healing?
> 
> I feel sorry for the kid.



Pity more the system that called Critical Harvest to pluck this bright young child before it had the chance to blossom into adulthood.


----------



## Obscurity (Apr 5, 2008)

If they were intelligent and religious, they should/would have admitted the child into the hospital and then start praying for her to get better.


----------



## Satsuki (Apr 5, 2008)

It's fine to pray, but they really should have gotten some medical help, _*then*_ prayed.


----------



## Axl Low (Apr 5, 2008)

So your parents praying to God will make you able to live while your life support's plug has been pulled?
*reads article*
HAHAHA!
Nope.


----------



## Chiyo (Apr 5, 2008)

I couldn't believe what I was reading. This brings tears of both anger and sadness to my eyes. Religion is one thing, blind 'faith' is another. If my daughter was ill, I would fight with her with all I have. She would get everything. She would have every doctor under the sun, even if I had to sell my body and soul to get them for her, and as an atheist, I'd even bloody pray to every god I'd ever heard of. If there was any possible way I thought I could make her better, I'd chase it with a ferocity I cannot put into words.

So to hear that a girl died of a treatable condition sickens me. I can't believe a parent would do that. If there's a god that says I should follow it with faith rather than saving my own child, then there's a god that I don't give a crap about. My duty is with care, not unseeing hope.


----------



## Aldrick (Apr 5, 2008)

> lol..it doesn't have to mean that. I'm not a big fan of medications either...I don't like how they make me feel. I'd prefer to have a clean system so I avoid them unless I need them.



I don't really use a lot of medications but I'm a fan of asthma medication because I need it to live.


----------



## Veriantor (Apr 5, 2008)

I live in Wausau, Wi a city that is like 5 miles away from Weston. This story is all over the news by me.


----------



## crabman (Apr 6, 2008)

Mario said:


> WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?







> "You see me in the photograph, one against many, but that is only an illusion ? behind the many stands one man ? (Prime Minister Ehud) Olmert, but behind me stand the lord and the people of Israel."







			
				Mr. T said:
			
		

> "Somebody told the doctors I was in town, so they called me down there. I closed the curtains and prayed. Then, as I was walking down the hall, the kid suddenly came out of the coma and hollered out.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 6, 2008)

Wow, a women protesting. That's like totally a miracle.


Wow, Mr T pulling a boy out of coma who always moved when the name of Mr T was mentioned. Yeah, totally a miracle. He could've prayed to FSM as well, the boy would've woken up anyway...


----------



## Pilaf (Apr 6, 2008)

The kid had a psychological thing for Mr. T...obviously hearing his voice triggered a reaction in his brain.

As for the woman in the first photograph - she has leverage against them, and it's just a momentary snapshot. I'd be willing to bed she was on her ass being trampled within seconds.


----------



## Sasori-puppet#66 (Apr 6, 2008)

Religion can be great, but when it is placed in the hands of a moron, nothing good comes out of it.


----------



## dora ♥ (Apr 6, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> How can someone just _sit there doing nothing_, begging _God_ to do something when they have all the miracles of modern medicine right here on Earth? I'm not a terribly religious person, *but I could see praying for someone... after you take them to the fucking hospital for treatment.*



My thoughts exactly.


----------



## ~rocka (Apr 6, 2008)

Those kids should be taken away from those parents immediately, poor girl having such ignorant parents.


----------



## fghj (Apr 6, 2008)

Saufsoldat said:


> Wow, Mr T pulling a boy out of coma who always moved when the name of Mr T was mentioned. Yeah, totally a miracle. He could've prayed to FSM as well, the boy would've woken up anyway...



So why you want to ban it again?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 6, 2008)

fghj said:


> So why you want to ban it again?



Ban what?


----------



## Black Wraith (Apr 6, 2008)

The parents should be charged with gross neglegent manslaughter.


----------



## Kyousuke (Apr 6, 2008)

I wonder if the parents are sick.......


----------



## moneeeb (Apr 6, 2008)

I really feel sorry for the little girl...poor child...

These parents deserve public humility...

We should have a parade just for them walking with their pants down in a cold day....and everyone laugh at them ...till they commit suicide...


----------

