# Juubito vs Various Sage Mode Characters



## lordcloud121 (Aug 7, 2013)

Hello, and yes I know Juubito is pretty much God Tier in Naruto, but with his new found weakness to Senjutsu, I was wondering how he would fare against the following characters so far with all their feats... 

Also this is my first post in a while XD

Restriction: No Nuking 
Location: The Final Valley 
Distance: 20m
SoM: IC
Knowledge: Manga

Juubito takes on all the Sage Mode characters gauntlet style, and then slowly faces them 1v2 1v3 and 1v4. All Characters are healed after their respective fights.

Juubito vs Sage Mode Jiraiya 
Juubito vs Sage Mode Kabuto 
Juubito vs Sage Mode Naruto 
Juubito vs Sage Mode Hashirama 

Juubito vs SM Jiraiya, and SM Kabuto 
Juubito vs SM Jiraiya, SM Kabuto, and SM Naruto
Juubito vs SM Jiraiya, SM Kabuto, SM Naruto, and SM Hashirama 

Who wins? You decide


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## iJutsu (Aug 7, 2013)

SM Kabuto destroys Obito.

Why didn't you include Oro? He already absorbed all of Kabuto's enhancements.


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## lordcloud121 (Aug 7, 2013)

iJutsu said:


> SM Kabuto destroys Obito.
> 
> Why didn't you include Oro? He already absorbed all of Kabuto's enhancements.




Yeah but he hasn't shown any feats proving he can use SM


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 7, 2013)

All don't have FTG to match him in speed and can't even hit him. Let's not forget Juubito still has hax Kamui......


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## lordcloud121 (Aug 7, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> All don't have FTG to match him in speed and can't even hit him. Let's not forget Juubito still has hax Kamui......



Naruto still has BM too so that could even the speed a bit, also Hashirama is quite fast too XD


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 7, 2013)

lordcloud121 said:


> Naruto still has BM too so that could even the speed a bit, also Hashirama is quite fast too XD



But BM can't use together with SM as well.

For SM Hashirama, I think I should give him more credit suppose he is the strongest Shinobi next to Juubito and Rinnegan Madara, but for now his arsenal isn't enough to beat Juubito.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 7, 2013)

*Sage Mode Jiraiya - 20% Chance of defeating Jyuubito*
1. I am assuming this is Jiraiya with Ma and Pa on his shoulder
2. Jiraiya puts up a good fight but loses. He will probably seriously injure Jyuubito with goemon but that's about it

*Sage Mode Kabuto - 40% Chance of defeating Jyuubito*
Kabuto puts up an even better fight. Senpō: Hakugeki no Jutsu would seriously mess up Obito and Kabuto can follow it up with other attacks. I see Obito defending himself with his 4 element jutsu but even his attacks will have a hard time killing Kabuto due to his Uzumaki / Hozuki body. This would be a long fight but in the end, I see Jyuubito winning 

*Sage Mode Naruto - 40% Chance of defeating Jyuubito*
1. Does Naruto get the help of Ma and Pa or not?
2. If Naruto has Ma and Pa, he would be a serious threat. Senpou:kawazu naki + rasengan will be a serious blow to jyuubito but in the end I still favor Obito because of the power of the six paths. I am assuming that he can heal himself

*Sage Mode Hashirama - 50% Chance of defeating Jyuubito*
1. I am assuming that Hashirama starts in sage mode
2. IF Hashirama uses kage bunshin from the get go, he would win. If he does not, he loses as well. My reasoning is simple. The best chance Hashirama has is a senpou mokuton: kajukai korin. However, without knowledge, he won't know to go for this automatically. The sheer level of Hashirama's defense (hobi no jutsu) is enough for him to defend against Obito's attacks. IF he can use kajukai korin seeds to put Jyuubito to sleep, then Shin Sūsenju can kill him

*SM Jiraiya, and SM Kabuto - 75% Chance of defeating Jyuubito*
Jyuubito definitely loses if they have Ma and Pa. Kawazu naki + 	Zessenzan or Senpō: Hakugeki + pretty much anything else and he is in trouble

*SM Jiraiya, SM Kabuto, and SM Naruto - 95% Chance of defeating Jyuubito*
This is too much for Jyuubito

*SM Jiraiya, SM Kabuto, SM Naruto, and SM Hashirama - 100% Certainty*

Hashirama will just chill and work on his Bonsai while the rest take care of him


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## Jagger (Aug 7, 2013)

Depends.

Is Juubito going to stand there while he gets attacked by everyone or actually do something?


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## Kai (Aug 7, 2013)

SM Hashirama outright admitted inferiority to the previous stage of Juubito.

None of these characters are beating the 10 tailed jinchuuriki at such levels.


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## blk (Aug 7, 2013)

Kai said:


> SM Hashirama outright admitted inferiority to the previous stage of Juubito.
> 
> None of these characters are beating the 10 tailed jinchuuriki at such levels.



Because he didn't know that jutsu powered with natural energy can damage Obito.

Assuming that, for some reason, he can't utilize Kamui, i don't know how he is supposed to survive against the Buddha's punches.
He can't block nor dodge them (the statue and its punches are too big), and considering that a single Rasengan was able to make him bleed, he supposedly can't even tank a stream of that kind of punches.

Juubito doesn't seem that strong after the last chapter.


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## Rocky (Aug 7, 2013)

blk said:


> Because he didn't know that jutsu powered with natural energy can damage Obito.



Hashirama didn't know that Senjutsu was Obito's weakness, yes. However, Hashirama didn't actually know that other Ninjutsu wouldn't work on Obito. They just found that out, after he shrugged off the Enton Rasenshuriken.

Hashirama was assuming all his techniques would work on Obito when he made that statement. It still stands true, and thus, Obito cleans house here.


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## Kai (Aug 7, 2013)

Juubito's bijuudama control would wreck Shinsuusenju. His power far exceeds that of Kurama and Perfect Susano'o, which destroyed all of the statue's 1,000 hands.

And blk, your interpretation is very typical of a chapter by chapter reader instead of one that would be looking at the full picture. This is the ten tails jinchuuriki with perfect Onmyouton control. Sage Mode by itself has never approached powers on such a level.

Just because Tobi is susceptible to senjutsu doesn't disregard manga canon and Kishi's intent to portray the ten tails jinchuuriki as dwarfing even Hashirama in power.

Naruto stated he would need Kyuubi's chakra to beat Sasuke, and will most likely combine Sage Mode and Bijuu Mode to fight Tobi. SM alone is nothing but a step in the right direction, and still far from the solution in defeating the host of the Juubi.


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## blk (Aug 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Hashirama didn't know that Senjutsu was Obito's weakness, yes. However, Hashirama didn't actually know that other Ninjutsu wouldn't work on Obito. They just found that out, after he shrugged off the Enton Rasenshuriken.
> 
> Hashirama was assuming all his techniques would work on Obito when he made that statement. It still stands true, and thus, Obito cleans house here.



If Hashirama thought that all of his tecniques could work on Obito (i.e potentially kill him more times than not), he wouldn't have claimed that the latter was stronger.
He probably thought that Obito could have countered the most part of his arsenal without much trouble.

Anyway, Hashirama here starts in SM and has knowledge that Obito is the Juubi Jin; so, he won't hold back.
As far as we saw, any large scale Mokuton attack infused with Senjutsu should be able to kill Obito.




Kai said:


> Juubito's bijuudama control would wreck Shinsuusenju. His power far exceeds that of Kurama and Perfect Susano'o, which destroyed all of the statue's 1,000 hands.
> 
> And blk, your interpretation is very typical of a chapter by chapter reader instead of one that would be looking at the full picture. This is the ten tails jinchuuriki with perfect Onmyouton control. Sage Mode by itself has never approached powers on such a level.
> 
> ...



Juubito's black spheres can't destroy Senjutsu based stuff (as we saw in this last chapter). If they could, i wouldn't be claiming that Hashirama can beat Juubito (considering what we saw so far).
Any regular Bijuudama (not made with that special black material) will be redirected by the Mokuton's hands or tanked with the Mokuton shield (many of it powered by SM if the Bijuudama is particularly powerfull).

What Kishi portrays via words is being contradicted by facts, which are what is of importance.
Not only he shown that Hashirama was able to restrain the Juubi with his wood gates alone, but he also possesses a power that Juubito can't supposedly stop; if anything, he is being portrayed as someone who can do something against the Juubi (in whatever form it is).

I still don't see how Juubito is supposed to survive to Senjutsu powered Mokuton when a Rasengan made him bleed.


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## Chad (Aug 7, 2013)

Here is my take on DSM Kabuto vs Juubito. I believe that Kabuto can win if he has enough starting distance and a short amount of preparatory time.

We all know that Juubito has the fastest non-jigukan shunshin speed shown so far, thus why I believe that with enough starting distance, it can prevent a speed blitz victory. But just because he is fast, does not mean that he is immune to immobilization. Kabuto's senjutsu enhanced Mugen Onsa will be very effective in immobilizing Obito. Since Obito does not have another Sharingan user beside him to dispel the Mugen Onsa with a reverse genjutsu, it's safe to say he will not break out of it. Especially considering that it's senjutsu enhanced.

Since Obito is unable to move at this point, Kabuto will use his Hashirama Negater Drug. What this will do to Obito's body is get rid of all the Hashirama cells inside of Obito that Madara used to heal Obito. Once the cells are gone, Obito will not be able to use the Rinnegan, due to lack of the requirements for the Rinnegan, Senju DNA. Without the Rinnegan, Obito cannot contain the Juubi. Thus, resulting in the Juubi ripping himself out of Obito's stomach and killing Obito.

As for SM Naruto, he also has a chance with enough starting distance. With enough starting distance, Ma and Pa can use the stun senjutsu called Kawazunaki. Since he isn't Kabuto and does not have a body suit to deal with stuns, Obito will be paralyzed. In the mean time, Naruto can throw two frs and seal the deal.


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## Veracity (Aug 7, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> But BM can't use together with SM as well.
> 
> For SM Hashirama, I think I should give him more credit suppose he is the strongest Shinobi next to Juubito and Rinnegan Madara, but for now his arsenal isn't enough to beat Juubito.



If Naruto's resengan damaged Obito, imagine the Buddha statue. He easily has the arsenal to deal a ton of damage.


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## Veracity (Aug 7, 2013)

blk said:


> If Hashirama thought that all of his tecniques could work on Obito (i.e potentially kill him more times than not), he wouldn't have claimed that the latter was stronger.
> He probably thought that Obito could have countered the most part of his arsenal without much trouble.
> 
> Anyway, Hashirama here starts in SM and has knowledge that Obito is the Juubi Jin; so, he won't hold back.
> ...



Yes, I agree with this. Hashirama may not have the speed and reflexes to actually hot Obito, but if he does , he's going to cause SEVERE damage. Possibly kill Him. If the Statue manages to barrage Obito, it will end his life.

Especially since it's heavily implied that with the help of Hashirama they can end Obito, hence the reason Madara is fighting off Hashi.


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## ueharakk (Aug 7, 2013)

If it wasn't for FTG, none of the big four's attacks would have landed, all of it would've been blocked by super jinton (actually even with FTG, juubito still blocked his own attack Tobirama sent back at him).



blk said:


> Juubito's black spheres can't destroy Senjutsu based stuff (as we saw in this last chapter). If they could, i wouldn't be claiming that Hashirama can beat Juubito (considering what we saw so far).



That's not actually true.  Senjutsu isn't immune to the black spheres, it just isn't treated like ninjutsu which gets turned into nothing on contact.  If the black spheres only could destroy ninjutsu, then we wouldn't see them create giant craters in the ground since the ground isn't made up of ninjutsu.  If senjutsu was immune to the black spheres, then obito can't kill a SM clone.  

Also, Mokuton buddah has never ever caught or redirected something as powerful as the damas that V1 juubi were pushing, let alone V2 and then the super juubidama minato warped away.  It also can't catch a juubidama fired as a laser beam, so no Mokuton buddah does not catch and redirect attacks magnitudes more powerful than it has ever gone up against.  It gets vaporized as all of the damas the juubi has used were more powerful than what we've seen it do at VoTe.


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## TheDestroyer (Aug 7, 2013)

He does this and soloes all of them.


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## blk (Aug 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> That's not actually true.  Senjutsu isn't immune to the black spheres, it just isn't treated like ninjutsu which gets turned into nothing on contact.  If the black spheres only could destroy ninjutsu, then we wouldn't see them create giant craters in the ground since the ground isn't made up of ninjutsu.  If senjutsu was immune to the black spheres, then obito can't kill a SM clone.
> 
> Also, Mokuton buddah has never ever caught or redirected something as powerful as the damas that V1 juubi were pushing, let alone V2 and then the super juubidama minato warped away.  It also can't catch a juubidama fired as a laser beam, so no Mokuton buddah does not catch and redirect attacks magnitudes more powerful than it has ever gone up against.  It gets vaporized as all of the damas the juubi has used were more powerful than what we've seen it do at VoTe.



The oil of Gamakichi wasn't destroyed by the black spheres.
It's not that those spheres can't destroy anything expect for ninjutsu (even though i don't remember any of those black spheres destroying the ground), it's that they can't destroy Senjutsu based stuff.
Obito can kill an SM clone, but not with that black stuff.

Obito never used any particularly powerful Bijuudama, so those are not a problem.
I don't see why Hashirama shouldn't be able to grab and redirect regular Juubidamas, they aren't very big.
The laser can be tanked by multiple Mokuton shields powered by SM.
The bottom line is that the moment when Obito/the Juubi itself or whoever it is, starts a Bijuudama, Hashirama can make wood under his feet and disrupt his aim.


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## LostSelf (Aug 7, 2013)

They stand zero chance against Jubito. Hashirama, the strongest of the sage users by far, admitted inferiority. He puts up a much better fight than the others, but all of them loses.


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## ueharakk (Aug 7, 2013)

blk said:


> The oil of Gamakichi wasn't destroyed by the black spheres.


correction: it wasn't instantly destroyed by the black spheres like all the other ninjutsu that the black spheres touch.  Obito's black orbs were stated to be just like oonoki's dust release, except a more advanced version.  I'm pretty sure oonoki's dust release can destroy things created by sage chakra.



blk said:


> It's not that those spheres can't destroy anything expect for ninjutsu (even though i don't remember any of those black spheres destroying the ground), *it's that they can't destroy Senjutsu based stuff.*


where is the bolded stated or implied? 

The black sphere made *a gigantic crater in the ground.* twice.



blk said:


> Obito can kill an SM clone, but not with that black stuff.


with what then? 



blk said:


> Obito never used any particularly powerful Bijuudama, so those are not a problem.
> I don't see why Hashirama shouldn't be able to grab and redirect regular Juubidamas, they aren't very big.


Show the weakest bijuudama obito used.  And the standard juubidamas are not only as large as bijuu, but they are magnitudes more powerful than a bijuudama of the same size.  not only that, but they are conical in shape.  So no, Hashirama doesn't get the ability to grab something that's magnitudes more powerful than the total firepower he and madara were outputting at VoTe.

What's to stop obito from firing one at the ground? Or firing one at another?  



blk said:


> The laser can be tanked by multiple Mokuton shields powered by SM.


what mokuton shields are you referring to and what feat/reasoning would give them the ability to do so?



blk said:


> The bottom line is that the moment when Obito/the Juubi itself or whoever it is, starts a Bijuudama, Hashirama can make wood under his feet and disrupt his aim.


When has hashirama able to do this?  Why didn't he do this to kurama at VoTe?  Obito is not only a sensor, but he can generate chakra arms that can tear apart the giant barrier to defend himself with.  When has hashirama ever generated mokuton from underneath someone that can even budge something as large and powerful as the juubi?


Black jinton isn't limited to only destroying ninjutsu, and if it couldn't destroy senjutsu, then it would have been explicitly stated to not have that ability.  It's obito's entire body and jutsus that has the ability to neg any ninjutsu  which is why enton rasenshuriken didn't work on him despite no black orbs defending him.  

If the negging ability only applied to the black orbs and was the only thing the orbs could do, then why would naruto even need to enter SM to hurt Obito? Why wouldn't a KCM rasengan or base rasengan work on him if he can't defend with the black orbs?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 7, 2013)

Obito is fucking god body right now...even with the senjutsu kryptonite shit his flight, minato type speed(even above maybe), tsunade level raw strength(maybe above) and yin yang release still being able to obliterate his opponents bodies means he is steamrolling most teams sages or not.


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## joshhookway (Aug 7, 2013)

TheDestroyer said:


> He does this and soloes all of them.



Sage Mode relfexes


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## Rocky (Aug 8, 2013)

blk said:


> If Hashirama thought that all of his tecniques could work on Obito (i.e potentially kill him more times than not), he wouldn't have claimed that the latter was stronger.



That's hardly true. I don't understand where this belief originated. 

Wielding a technique capable of damaging (or even killing) Obito does not automatically place Hashirama on a higher level. This isn't Dragonball Z.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 8, 2013)

PIS Obito?
Hashirama stomps.

Intent to kill?
50/50

You don't wanna mess with Hashirama Senju. 
Jiraiya and Naruto won't survive very long, but Kabuto has the potential to defeat PIS Obito - with an extreme amount of difficulty, nonetheless - unless he is allowed to summon Edo Madara, which would make the match-up an automatic win.


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## Rocky (Aug 8, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> unless he is allowed to summon Edo Madara, which would make the match-up an automatic win.



Madara isn't a Sage, so he actually looses. Badly.

Even if he was a Sage, he would probably loose. Badly.

I think Obito said he had the power of Rikudou Sennin in the last chapter. He stomps everything no diff if he actually _tries_. I'm fairly certain only Rikudou Naruto (Like SM 100% Kurama Bijuu Mode) can win, and that's after an extreme difficulty battle.


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## TheDestroyer (Aug 8, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Sage Mode relfexes



Show me a panel where they're better than Minato's reflexes


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## blk (Aug 8, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> correction: it wasn't instantly destroyed by the black spheres like all the other ninjutsu that the black spheres touch.  Obito's black orbs were stated to be just like oonoki's dust release, except a more advanced version.  I'm pretty sure oonoki's dust release can destroy things created by sage chakra.
> 
> 
> where is the bolded stated or implied?
> ...



Tobirama stated that the black spheres can't erase Senjutsu based stuff in this last chapter [1]. Gamakichi's oil was simply falling down, it wasn't being erased.
The black spheres were stated to be similar to Onoki's Jinton just because both are able to disintegrate things, not because they are exactly the same jutsu (infact, Onoki's Jinton can't be manipulated as much as the black spheres but at the same time it doesn't have this particular weakness against Senjutsu).

Without the black sphere's erasing ability, Juubito has no way to stop the Buddha's punches or any large scale Mokuton infused with Senjutsu.

An SM clone can be destroyed by a random taijutsu hit.



> Show the weakest bijuudama obito used.  And the standard juubidamas are not only as large as bijuu, but they are magnitudes more powerful than a bijuudama of the same size.  not only that, but they are conical in shape.  So no, Hashirama doesn't get the ability to grab something that's magnitudes more powerful than the total firepower he and madara were outputting at VoTe.
> 
> What's to stop obito from firing one at the ground? Or firing one at another?



Juubito used only this kind of weak Bijuudama so far [2].
Juubi's conical Bijuudamas were pretty small, not sure why Hashirama shouldn't be able to grab them.



> what mokuton shields are you referring to and what feat/reasoning would give them the ability to do so?



The one that he used for protect himself against the Kyuubi's Bijuudama.



> When has hashirama able to do this?  Why didn't he do this to kurama at VoTe?  Obito is not only a sensor, but he can generate chakra arms that can tear apart the giant barrier to defend himself with.  When has hashirama ever generated mokuton from underneath someone that can even budge something as large and powerful as the juubi?



Hashirama can create Mokuton from below and around the enemy, as you can see here [3].



> Black jinton isn't limited to only destroying ninjutsu, and if it couldn't destroy senjutsu, then it would have been explicitly stated to not have that ability.  It's obito's entire body and jutsus that has the ability to neg any ninjutsu  which is why enton rasenshuriken didn't work on him despite no black orbs defending him.
> 
> If the negging ability only applied to the black orbs and was the only thing the orbs could do, then why would naruto even need to enter SM to hurt Obito? Why wouldn't a KCM rasengan or base rasengan work on him if he can't defend with the black orbs?



I never wrote that the black orbs are the only thing that can erase ninjutsu.




Rocky said:


> That's hardly true. I don't understand where this belief originated.
> 
> Wielding a technique capable of damaging (or even killing) Obito does not automatically place Hashirama on a higher level. This isn't Dragonball Z.



What exactly makes someone stronger than someone else if not the capability to kill the latter in a fight more times than not?



> Madara isn't a Sage, so he actually looses. Badly.
> 
> Even if he was a Sage, he would probably loose. Badly.
> 
> I think Obito said he had the power of Rikudou Sennin in the last chapter. He stomps everything no diff if he actually tries. I'm fairly certain only Rikudou Naruto (Like SM 100% Kurama Bijuu Mode) can win, and that's after an extreme difficulty battle.



Yeah, and the power of Rikudo Sennin is evidently not that great.
As far as we saw, SM Hashirama can solo Juubito with mid difficulty in a battle with a mid-long starting distance and enough knowledge.
If Preta Path works against the black orbs, Madara can do this too.


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## ueharakk (Aug 8, 2013)

blk said:


> Tobirama stated that the black spheres can't erase Senjutsu based stuff in this last chapter [1]. Gamakichi's oil was simply falling down, it wasn't being erased.


It wasn't being erased int he same way that it just makes ninjutsu disappear.  However it doesn't mean that it can't erase senjutsu.



blk said:


> The black spheres were stated to be similar to Onoki's Jinton just because both are able to disintegrate things, not because they are exactly the same jutsu (infact, Onoki's Jinton can't be manipulated as much as the black spheres but at the same time it doesn't have this particular weakness against Senjutsu).


Sure their not exactly the same, because juubito's jutsu is on another level t han oonoki's which is why hiruzen states he's manipulating at least 4 elements verses oonoki's 3.  



blk said:


> Without the black sphere's erasing ability, Juubito has no way to stop the Buddha's punches or any large scale Mokuton infused with Senjutsu.


Except the black sphere's can simply erase things just like jinton erases things.  The only difference is that the black spheres and obito himself can't simply erase raw senjutsu.



blk said:


> An SM clone can be destroyed by a random taijutsu hit.


Based on what?




blk said:


> Juubito used only this kind of weak Bijuudama so far [2].
> Juubi's conical Bijuudamas were pretty small, not sure why Hashirama shouldn't be able to grab them.


What the hell?  How is that a bijuudama?  That's naruto slamming a rasengan into obito, and the resulting force is what causes that explosion.  Juubito has never made a bijuudama yet.

Juubi's conical bijuudamas were as big as the juubi's head which in turn is larger than a bijuu.  And i've listed exactly why hashirama shouldn't be able to grab them, to ignore those points would be a concession on your part.




blk said:


> The one that he used for protect himself against the Kyuubi's Bijuudama.


THat's mokuton hobi, and that protected himself from the mere blast radius of the bijuudama, if it was a direct hit it would have been a different story.

And of course from there, you leap from him being able to make one mokuton hobi, to making multiple mokuton hobis, and further make the leap that because it protected him from one standard bijuudama, it's going to protect him from a laser that casually overpowered 9 bijuudamas.  And of course his laserdama is going to be levels beyond what he did earlier since it's coming from V2 muscular juubi.  Finally, if hashirama actually can do that, then that would mean he has a much more powerful defense in the form of mokuton hobi than his SM buddah, which the manga obviously doesn't imply.




blk said:


> Hashirama can create Mokuton from below and around the enemy, as you can see here [3].


sure he can, yet that doesn't mean it interferes with juubito charging the bijuudama as juubito senses it and has many ways to counter it, some of which i've listed, none of which you've replied to.




blk said:


> I never wrote that the black orbs are the only thing that can erase ninjutsu.


Then what exactly is the difference between the black orbs and juubito's body?  Why is Tobirama able to touch juubito without getting his arm erased?  

Obviously the ability to erase ninjutsu is only one trait of the black orbs, it's not the definition of the black orbs as they have already erased natural constructs and protected obito from explosions, both which are not ninjutsu nor made of chakra.


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## Ghost (Aug 8, 2013)

Obito rapestomps.


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## blk (Aug 8, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> It wasn't being erased int he same way that it just makes ninjutsu disappear.  However it doesn't mean that it can't erase senjutsu.
> 
> 
> Sure their not exactly the same, because juubito's jutsu is on another level t han oonoki's which is why hiruzen states he's manipulating at least 4 elements verses oonoki's 3.
> ...



Even if the black spheres were erasing the oil (a notion that i doesn't accept, since it was clearly just falling down and because they found out that Obito can't erase Senjutsu exactly because of that evenience), they were doing so extremely slowly, which means that it won't be an efficient defense against the hundreds of (gigantic) punches of the Buddha.

But considering that you accepted that Obito can't simply erase Senjutsu, i don't know why we are arguing.



> Based on what?



Based on the many instances where clones got destroyed by taijutsu.



> What the hell?  How is that a bijuudama?  That's naruto slamming a rasengan into obito, and the resulting force is what causes that explosion.  Juubito has never made a bijuudama yet.
> 
> Juubi's conical bijuudamas were as big as the juubi's head which in turn is larger than a bijuu.  And i've listed exactly why hashirama shouldn't be able to grab them, to ignore those points would be a concession on your part.



I linked the wrong scan, here's the correct one [1].

If Juubi's conical Bijuudama were as big as you claim, then you are right. Otherwise i don't see why the greater power should impede Hashirama from grabbing the Bijuudama, if its dimension is not particularly big.



> THat's mokuton hobi, and that protected himself from the mere blast radius of the bijuudama, if it was a direct hit it would have been a different story.
> 
> And of course from there, you leap from him being able to make one mokuton hobi, to making multiple mokuton hobis, and further make the leap that because it protected him from one standard bijuudama, it's going to protect him from a laser that casually overpowered 9 bijuudamas.  And of course his laserdama is going to be levels beyond what he did earlier since it's coming from V2 muscular juubi.  Finally, if hashirama actually can do that, then that would mean he has a much more powerful defense in the form of mokuton hobi than his SM buddah, which the manga obviously doesn't imply.



I don't know why he shouldn't be able to make more than one Mokuton Hobi, he certainly has enough chakra for it.
The Mokuton shield wasn't even scratched after the detonation, so it's safe to claim that multiple shields powered with Senjutsu can tank the Juubi's laser (which wasn't able to pass through Naruto's BM construct).



> sure he can, yet that doesn't mean it interferes with juubito charging the bijuudama as juubito senses it and has many ways to counter it, some of which i've listed, none of which you've replied to.



Which ways? Can he move while making a Bijuudama? Can he dodge Mokuton jutsus bigger than the Kyuubi that appear from below and around him?



> Then what exactly is the difference between the black orbs and juubito's body?  Why is Tobirama able to touch juubito without getting his arm erased?
> 
> Obviously the ability to erase ninjutsu is only one trait of the black orbs, it's not the definition of the black orbs as they have already erased natural constructs and protected obito from explosions, both which are not ninjutsu nor made of chakra.



Who knows?
What we are certain of is that Obito's black spheres can't erase Senjutsu (as shown and stated by Tobirama).


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## ueharakk (Aug 8, 2013)

blk said:


> Even if the black spheres were erasing the oil (a notion that i doesn't accept, since it was clearly just falling down and because they found out that Obito can't erase Senjutsu exactly because of that evenience), they were doing so extremely slowly, which means that it won't be an efficient defense against the hundreds of (gigantic) punches of the Buddha.


Why would it not be a sufficient defense? If the black sphere is surrounding juubito, what implies that the punches would get through the black sphere defense?  Does the black spheres not destroying the oil very quickly = punches having the ability to destroy or get through the black spheres?



blk said:


> But considering that you accepted that Obito can't simply erase Senjutsu, i don't know why we are arguing.


because jinton doesn't simply erase ninjutsu, it destroys it at a molecular level.  Erasing means blotting out of existence, something that you can't do with mere power.




blk said:


> Based on the many instances where clones got destroyed by taijutsu.


really?  Show me one time that a sage mode clone was destroyed by taijutsu.




blk said:


> I linked the wrong scan, here's the correct one [1].


That's not a bijuudama, that's simply one of his black spheres expanding, then contracting, and then flying back to him...... 



blk said:


> If Juubi's conical Bijuudama were as big as you claim, then you are right. Otherwise i don't see why the greater power should impede Hashirama from grabbing the Bijuudama, if its dimension is not particularly big.


Then Hashirama can't grab it since it is as big as I am claiming it to be.  In addition to that, I've also listed another reason why he can't grab it, please respond to it.




blk said:


> I don't know why he shouldn't be able to make more than one Mokuton Hobi, he certainly has enough chakra for it.


It's because using multiple jutsu simultaneously not only takes chakra into consideration, but skill and concentration. 



blk said:


> The Mokuton shield wasn't even scratched after the detonation, so it's safe to claim that multiple shields powered with Senjutsu can tank the Juubi's laser (which wasn't able to pass through Naruto's BM construct).


Yeah, it wasn't scratched because it wasn't directly hit.  Deva path was able to withstand the AoE of a bijuudama (albeit he was sort of away from the epicenter), KN6 wasn't damaged at all.  The juubilaser even from the weakest form easily overpowers 9 bijuudamas without even getting weaker (noticeably).  

The laser being blocked by BM Naruto is irrelevant to your case since BM Naruto's shroud has never been damaged by anything before.




blk said:


> Which ways? Can he move while making a Bijuudama? Can he dodge Mokuton jutsus bigger than the Kyuubi that appear from below and around him?


Chakra arms that can easily tear away the barrier, fire the bijuudama quickly like the juubi was doing in V2, black orbs to block the arms.  And you still havent adressed the issue of how large the Juubi is compared to the mokuton jutsus.




blk said:


> Who knows?
> What we are certain of is that Obito's black spheres can't erase Senjutsu (as shown and stated by Tobirama).


Nope, you can't say "who knows" since that's a huge hole in your view of the black orbs and obito's erasing ability.  This is a question that most definitely affects the view about the black orbs being able to erase things.


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## Grimm6Jack (Aug 8, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> *Sage Mode Jiraiya - 20% Chance of defeating Jyuubito*
> 1. I am assuming this is Jiraiya with Ma and Pa on his shoulder
> 2. Jiraiya puts up a good fight but loses. He will probably seriously injure Jyuubito with goemon but that's about it
> 
> ...



Wut??????


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 8, 2013)

Yeah, weighing in with ueharakk: the feature of Juubito's jutsu that is of no use against senjutsu is Omyouton, which was added once Obito managed to fully control the Juubi's chakras and took on the appearance of the Sage of Six Paths from whence his jutsu is derived. Without that ability, his jutsu cannot simply erase ninjutsu, but it still has the destructive power that combines at least four elements and completely surpasses even Jinton. He merely shielded himself from Gamikachi's attack, and as of yet, there is no set limit to his defense. There is no reason to think a senjutsu move would be immune to the destructive force of the sudden and violent expansion of the black orbs that Juubito wields. Without the ability to erase ninjutsu, it would simply be a test of offensive power vs defensive capability, and in that department, I suspect Juubito will pretty much always have the advantage.


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## Rocky (Aug 8, 2013)

blk said:


> Yeah, and the power of Rikudo Sennin is evidently not that great.
> As far as we saw, SM Hashirama can solo Juubito with mid difficulty in a battle with a mid-long starting distance and enough knowledge.
> If Preta Path works against the black orbs, Madara can do this too.



:sanji

Who the fuck put acid in your cereal. 

SM Hashirama admitted inferiority after his Senjutsu Gate failed. Having you attacks not get negated is helpful, but having them do any actual damage is a different story.


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## Kai (Aug 8, 2013)

blk said:
			
		

> What Kishi portrays via words is being contradicted by facts, which are what is of importance.


Those words are fact. The most powerful characters to ever assemble against one character is a testament to that fact.

Juubito is stronger than SM Hashirama as outright stressed. Senjutsu does nothing to falsify that matter.

You're the one pretending a contradiction exists.



blk said:


> Yeah, and the power of Rikudo Sennin is evidently not that great.




There is nothing evident about this unreasonable nonsense.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Aug 8, 2013)

Holy shit, just because Senjutsu can damage someone doesn't automatically mean they'll win.

Take EMS Madara for example: He can get "damaged" by Sage jutsu as well, doesn't mean every sage jutsu user ever will automatically destroy him.

Senjutsu won't get erased by Onmyoten, that's all that means.

Juubito has been standing around all day not even attacking. He's literally watching them. Not to mention he's already shown top tier speed and none of these guys can catch him or even touch him without Hiraishin.

The only reason they were able to even touch him is because of Hiraishin, other than that he can easily block their attacks with the ball.


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## blk (Aug 8, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Why would it not be a sufficient defense? If the black sphere is surrounding juubito, what implies that the punches would get through the black sphere defense?  Does the black spheres not destroying the oil very quickly = punches having the ability to destroy or get through the black spheres?
> 
> 
> because jinton doesn't simply erase ninjutsu, it destroys it at a molecular level.  Erasing means blotting out of existence, something that you can't do with mere power.



Do the black spheres have feats that suggest that they can withstand the Buddha's punches, without their ability to erase? If yes, i concede.
Otherwise, for now i have no reasons for believe that they would tank the stream of punches.

I'm pretty sure that Kishimoto doesn't took into consideration the difference between terms like vaporization/sublimation and "erase".
Infact, Gamakichi's oil was not only not being vaporized, but it was also stuck in the black orbs [1 ; 2 ; 3].



> really?  Show me one time that a sage mode clone was destroyed by taijutsu.



When Deva destroyed an SM clone with a weak ST.
Yes, it isn't a taijutsu hit, but the force of that ST can be replicated by most of the characters with just taijutsu (even more Obito, who in his weaker form was able to destroy KCM clones with a single hit of Madara's fan).
Anyway, Juubito can also use chakra arms and generic Bijuudamas for destroy SM clones.



> That's not a bijuudama, that's simply one of his black spheres expanding, then contracting, and then flying back to him......



Hmm, after seeing it more carefully, it seems that you are correct.



> Then Hashirama can't grab it since it is as big as I am claiming it to be.  In addition to that, I've also listed another reason why he can't grab it, please respond to it.



Ok.
The reason that you listed (the one about the difference in power i guess?) was addressed.
However, it doesn't matter anymore since i conceded the argument by virtue of the dimension of the Juubidamas (i remembered that they weren't very big, but after checking that chapters again i saw that one of them was as big as the Hachibi).



> It's because using multiple jutsu simultaneously not only takes chakra into consideration, but skill and concentration.
> 
> 
> Yeah, it wasn't scratched because it wasn't directly hit.  Deva path was able to withstand the AoE of a bijuudama (albeit he was sort of away from the epicenter), KN6 wasn't damaged at all.  The juubilaser even from the weakest form easily overpowers 9 bijuudamas without even getting weaker (noticeably).
> ...



If Hashirama managed to create multiple Mokuton hands (almost as big as the Kyuubi) at the same time i don't know why he should have a problem at doing so with the shields.
He was also able to create Bunshins and Senjutsu gates while he was busy at keeping the barrier. 
The likelihood that concentration will be a problem is fairly low. 

Regarding the rest, i disagree. The detonation is by far the most damaging part of the Bijuudama, a direct hit by the ball itself changes nothing.
The only reasonable solution in Deva's case is that he used at the last moment an ST.



> Chakra arms that can easily tear away the barrier, fire the bijuudama quickly like the juubi was doing in V2, black orbs to block the arms.  And you still havent adressed the issue of how large the Juubi is compared to the mokuton jutsus.



The size of the Juubi isn't a problem, Hashirama can replicate what was done here but with Mokuton [4].
This is all what's needed for disrupt the aim of the Juubi or Juubito.



> Nope, you can't say "who knows" since that's a huge hole in your view of the black orbs and obito's erasing ability.  This is a question that most definitely affects the view about the black orbs being able to erase things.



Now that i think about it, Tobirama was also able to touch the black spheres without being erased [5].
So, there doesn't seem to be problems with my interpretation.




Rocky said:


> :sanji
> 
> Who the fuck put acid in your cereal.
> 
> SM Hashirama admitted inferiority after his Senjutsu Gate failed. Having you attacks not get negated is helpful, but having them do any actual damage is a different story.



You would have a point if the SM Rasengan didn't do damage to Juubito.




Kai said:


> There is nothing evident about this unreasonable nonsense.



Well, same as above.


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## Alita (Aug 8, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> *Sage Mode Jiraiya - 20% Chance of defeating Jyuubito*
> 1. I am assuming this is Jiraiya with Ma and Pa on his shoulder
> 2. Jiraiya puts up a good fight but loses. He will probably seriously injure Jyuubito with goemon but that's about it
> 
> ...



I want what your smoking bro.



Kai said:


> SM Hashirama outright admitted inferiority to the previous stage of Juubito.
> 
> None of these characters are beating the 10 tailed jinchuuriki at such levels.



Thread should have ended here.


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## ueharakk (Aug 8, 2013)

blk said:


> Do the black spheres have feats that suggest that they can withstand the Buddha's punches, without their ability to erase? If yes, i concede.


sure they do.  Just one of the black spheres protected a mindless juubito from Tobirama's infinite explosions.  



blk said:


> Otherwise, for now i have no reasons for believe that they would tank the stream of punches.


yet you are the one making the positive assertion that it CAN'T tank the stream of punches.  You have just as much of a burden of proof to support that assertion as I have. 



blk said:


> I'm pretty sure that Kishimoto doesn't took into consideration the difference between terms like vaporization/sublimation and "erase".
> Infact, Gamakichi's oil was not only not being vaporized, but it was also stuck in the black orbs [1 ; 2 ; 3].


Yes he does, there's all kinds of different forms of vaporization, there's complete annihilation which is what obito has the ability to do to ninjutsu, then there's destroying at the molecular level, destroying at the cellular level etc.  




blk said:


> *When Deva destroyed an SM clone with a weak ST.*
> Yes, it isn't a taijutsu hit, but the force of that ST can be replicated by most of the characters with just taijutsu (even more Obito, who in his weaker form was able to destroy KCM clones with a single hit of Madara's fan).
> Anyway, Juubito can also use chakra arms and generic Bijuudamas for destroy SM clones.


Nope, shinra tensei's nature can't be replicated by anyone, it's not even a shockwave but a gravity wave that has the unique property of negating ninjutsu.  Unless of course you want to assert that people can make amaterasu disappear by kicking it.



blk said:


> If Hashirama managed to create multiple Mokuton hands (almost as big as the Kyuubi) at the same time i don't know why he should have a problem at doing so with the shields.


The only way your mokuton hands = mokuton hobi logic would be true is if you pressupose that it's just as easy to create a mokuton hand as it is to create mokuton hobi.  Which is pretty darn false as mokuhobi isn't anything resembling a normal mokuton, it's durability craps all over mokujins, the same one that got vaporized by being in the blast of a bijuudama.

So the burden of proof is on you to show how moku hobi is comparable to a giant mokuton arm.



blk said:


> He was also able to create Bunshins and Senjutsu gates while he was busy at keeping the barrier.
> The likelihood that concentration will be a problem is fairly low.


yet the bunshins he created were fodder, madara fodderized one while sitting down, the ones on the battlefield were having a hard time against the big juubispawn.



blk said:


> Regarding the rest, i disagree. The detonation is by far the most damaging part of the Bijuudama, a direct hit by the ball itself changes nothing.
> The only reasonable solution in Deva's case is that he used at the last moment an ST.


When did I ever say that the detonation is less damaging than an UNDETONATED bijuudama?  Never, I said that getting hit directly by the bijuudama, like how bee did is way more damaging than just being within the damas AoE.

And no, deva had just used banshou tennin so he couldn't have used a shinra tensei, and if he did, he wouldn't have been damaged by the blast.




blk said:


> The size of the Juubi isn't a problem, Hashirama can replicate what was done here but with Mokuton [4].
> This is all what's needed for disrupt the aim of the Juubi or Juubito.


Except if you read a page later, you'll see the reason why that technique worked.  In addition to that, datara is fighting thousands of people, thus his focus isn't fixed on one person and thus is another reason why kitsuchi could pull that off and not hashirama.




blk said:


> Now that i think about it, Tobirama was also able to touch the black spheres without being erased [5].
> So, there doesn't seem to be problems with my interpretation.


Wait, so Tobirama is made of senjutsu now?  Because your interpretation is that it erases all ninjutsu, so it's necessary for Tobirama to be made of senjutsu in order to be able to touch the black sphere.  Anyways, address those points I've made, don't try to avoid them, they are questions that are integral to the mechanics of juubito's black spheres and his negating ability.


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## Rocky (Aug 9, 2013)

blk said:


> You would have a point if the SM Rasengan didn't do damage to Juubito.



It most likely did no more damage to Jubito than Kakashi's punch did to Obito.

Also, hitting him is a rather large problem. And oh, he can fight back. 

With power greater than that of the Ten-Tails. 

So they die.

All of them. 

All.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Aug 9, 2013)

He's no more weak to Senjutsu than any other character. The word you're looking for is vulnerable.


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