# Killer Bee vs Madara (Taijutsu/ Kenjutsu only)



## StickaStick (Oct 9, 2014)

*Location*: Bee vs Taka
*Distance*: 5 meters
*Knowledge*: Full
*Mindset*: I.C. To Kill
*Restrictions*: Anything that isn't taijutsu/ kenjutsu; EMS; Tailed-Beast forms

Assume they will start out in taijutsu, but if either feels they're beeing overpowered badly they'll quickly bring out their respective weapons and the other will follow suit; Bee's swords for his Seven Sword Dance and Mads his Gunbai and Kama.

*Scenario 2*: EMS is unrestricted and Bee can use up to a seven-tailed chakra cloak.


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## Rocky (Oct 9, 2014)

Madara can't even hurt B with his bare hands, so there's that. If he pulls out his Gunbai, he can guard against both B's taijutsu and kenjutsu...but that's really all he can do. Madara still isn't hitting B enough times with the thing to actually down him before B stabs him once.

Scenario 2 is a massacre. V1 B against Madara with taijutsu only? Unless Susano'o is allowed, B tears Madara's chest off. The sheer difference in physical strength is like astronomical. Madara can evade B all day, but the moment he attacks B at melee range, he gets broken by any wrestling technique. 

The only form of Madara that can do anything to v1 B with just his taijutsu is Jubidara.


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## KyuubiFan (Oct 9, 2014)

Rocky, I think you did not read some of the latter chapters.

Base Madara managed to blitz and knock back Sage Naruto, while being blind! That's an even stronger Sage Naruto than the one who stopped a boss-sized Rhino with his bare hands and tossed it like nothing. There's literally nothing Bee can do in S1 against him as Madara casually reacted to V2 Raikage, a freshly teleported Tsunade's attack and KCM Naruto's surprise attack. 

S2 is more even, Bee has better chances here. Madara should still be faster though and Bee's attack pattern is linear, unless it's the sword dance, but that's countered by his fan and sickle.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 9, 2014)

Naruto blocked Madara so it wasn't a blitz.


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## Mercurial (Oct 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Madara can't even hurt B with his bare hands, so there's that. If he pulls out his Gunbai, he can guard against both B's taijutsu and kenjutsu...but that's really all he can do. Madara still isn't hitting B enough times with the thing to actually down him before B stabs him once.
> 
> Scenario 2 is a massacre. V1 B against Madara with taijutsu only? Unless Susano'o is allowed, B tears Madara's chest off. The sheer difference in physical strength is like astronomical. Madara can evade B all day, but the moment he attacks B at melee range, he gets broken by any wrestling technique.
> 
> The only form of Madara that can do anything to v1 B with just his taijutsu is Jubidara.



SM Madara   far better speed and reflexes + chakra rod GG


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## Rocky (Oct 9, 2014)

KyuubiFan said:


> Base Madara managed to blitz and knock back Sage Naruto, while being blind! That's an even stronger Sage Naruto than the one who stopped a boss-sized Rhino with his bare hands and tossed it like nothing. There's literally nothing Bee can do in S1 against him as Madara casually reacted to V2 Raikage, a freshly teleported Tsunade's attack and KCM Naruto's surprise attack.



Madara kicked Naruto (btw Naruto blocked it). 

Wow. 

Weaker shinobi can send stronger ones flying with an unexpected strike. Even though Madara is faster than B, he isn't strong enough to do any meaningful damage, nor can he reliably fend off B's _*swirling steel hurricane of doom*_ long enough to literally beat B to death with a blunt fan. That would take ages...

Madara may be able to evade quick linear attacks, but that's _far_ different than beating a guy that can skillfully wield a blade with his fucking stomach. Madara had like Hashirama level taijutsu, and neither are besting the best swordsman in the manga in a kenjutsu fight. 



Raikiri19 said:


> SM Madara   far better speed and reflexes + chakra rod GG



Chakra Rod = Rinnegan Ninjutsu. 

Though I honestly don't know if that would even pierce B's biju enhanced body.


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## Veracity (Oct 9, 2014)

Madara destroys base bee. Well not really destroys but wins comfortably. 

•He has shown kenjustu skills that essentially parallel bees sword skill
• He has blocked a fucking mini tailed beats Bomb with his Gunbai( as well as lesser obito man handling KCM naruto with it)
• The Durabilty to tank a V1 punch unscathed
•speed to almost outright blitz sage Naruto
• Strength to lift a perfect sage off its fucking feet.
• and far superior reacts to that off base bee

Considering Itachi was able to CQC handle bee for a sec, Id wager Madara would outright rape.

Scenario 2 is just a terrible match up , as if it was made for Madara to lose. Give him ribcaged Sussano and we'll see.


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## Rocky (Oct 9, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> ?He has shown kenjustu skills that essentially parallel bees sword skill







> ? He has blocked a fucking mini tailed beats Bomb with his Gunbai( as well as lesser obito man handling KCM naruto with it)



He used Uchihagaeshi. I don't know what that would even do to a sword, but regardless, camping behind that will get him nowhere fast.

Also, the only reason Obito was "manhandling" Naruto was because he could turn that Gunbai intangible and swing it through fucking boulders.



> ? The Durabilty to tank a V1 punch unscathed



B has swords, and swords can go through _Sage Madara._



> ? Strength to lift a perfect sage off its fucking feet.



Naruto is not heavy. 



> ? and far superior reacts to that off base bee



Where...? I could understand superior, but by far?


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## Mercurial (Oct 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Where...? I could understand superior, but by far?



Far? I'd say far, far, far, far above.


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## Rocky (Oct 9, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Far? I'd say far, far, far, far above.



Based on which reaction feat, exactly?


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## Veracity (Oct 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> He used Uchihagaeshi. I don't know what that would even do to a sword, but regardless, camping behind that will get him nowhere fast.
> 
> Also, the only reason Obito was "manhandling" Naruto was because he could turn that Gunbai intangible and swing it through fucking boulders.
> 
> ...


Here: _tagging_
Bee and Madara are the only people in the manga to have that exact illustration when swinging swords. You can call it bullshit , but it's something I believe.

Can I get some specifics to this Justu ? It's actually important to the discussion.

True. But so can bee. I doubt his base incarnation is more Duarble then his BM form which gets chopped and screwed by large shiruken. So bee can be stabbed just as easily.

Id wager he's pretty heavy given how he smashed through this columns of stone from not even a high distance. And given this: _tagging_

I doubt spiderman is heavy either. But it be a hella of a job to knock him over.

But the main reason is that Naruto has strong ass legs like here: _tagging_

Okay just better then which helps a lot here .


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## ueharakk (Oct 9, 2014)

Rocky, ima make things harder for ya.

the gunbai was strong enough to hurt KCM Naruto who could take V2 claw attacks to the face and edo madara was casually slicing the shinjuu branches in half with that.

I donʻt think bee wins this, madara is a lott more reflexive, his weapon is strong enough to probably kill bee or seriously injure him and having such a wide weapon would allow him to block all of beeʻs swords with a single swing (since it encompasses such a large area) making beeʻs kenjutsu skills a lot less effective.


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## Rocky (Oct 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Rocky, ima make things harder for ya.
> 
> the gunbai was strong enough to hurt KCM Naruto who could take V2 claw attacks to the face and edo madara was casually slicing the shinjuu branches in half with that.





That Gunbai did shit all to Naruto, and Tobirama was cutting through those branches with some random water technique. Seriously, I want the scans of the weapon doing damage to Naruto. All I recall is it popping a clone in one instance and Naruto blocking it in another.


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## Veracity (Oct 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That Gunbai did shit all to Naruto, and Tobirama was cutting through those branches with some random water technique. Seriously, I want the scans of the weapon doing damage to Naruto. All I recall is it popping a clone in one instance and Naruto blocking it in another.



It doesn't really even matter to be honest. Bee can be hurt by Shiruken.

Madara who is already is a physical beast could prolly chop limbs off with his sword. 

And Tobirama can prolly create water waves the same scale a Madaras Katon( first appearance) I don't think TOBIRAMA is a good example to use. You should have used Mifune or Hirzuen.


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## trance (Oct 10, 2014)

Bee is physically superior to Madara. Speed wise, Madara is likely faster. Since he's far superior to Sasuke was at the time, I'd wager Madara can also counter Bee's swordsmanship. I'd give it to Madara more times than not.


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## Thunder (Oct 10, 2014)

I see no reason why Madara would fail to evade Kirābī's seven sword dance and land some counters. He's got the gunbai and kama on hand so it's not like blocking is out of the question, either.

Kirābī is very exceptional with the blade. However, Madara is no slouch in the art of kenjutsu himself, demonstrated when he tore through the alliance with ease. Now that I look back I'm noticing Madara's graceful movements are drawn in a similar manner to Kirābī's. And it's important to note a reverse grip was employed by Madara during those clashes. Very impressive stuff.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 10, 2014)

Madara's feats of humiliating SM Naruto while blind is pretty crazy. With actual eyes and not simple eyes but 3-tomoe Sharingan he is comfortably above Base B and V1 B(judging by weakened Sasuke's being able to dodge his Lariat) in terms of speed. In pure CQC B's strength advantage makes makes it close but still I see Madara winnings. He was guarding himself from Raikage's attack, same attacks KCM Naruto called powerful so his own strength and durability are pretty decent. With weapons I see Madara winning. Superior speed + ability to hurt B easier.


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## Rocky (Oct 10, 2014)

Jesus, this sounds like a Tsunade thread. Superior flicker speed and an attack that can damage B somehow translate to victory despite being horribly outclassed in actual blade skill and physical strength.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 10, 2014)

this is very close, i personally believe bee to be the most skilled swordsman in the manga, after a long drawn out battle i see madara winning simply because of the gunbai and it's broken properties.


Seven sword dance from bee is one of the most dangerous kenjutsu moves in the manga and i think it's safe to say it's his best move in base, but if itachi evaded or (retreated from it) however you guy's want to word it, itachi came out unharmed, and madara should be able to replicate the feat, however unlike itachi he is armed with more then a kunai and he will be able to use the gunabai and blow bee back.

madara also has been shown to move similar to how bee moves using the seven sword style


close call but due to the gunbai's long range like properties, and due to itachi being able to tango with bee and come out unharmed im giving it to madara with 6/10 extreme difficulty 


scenario 2 makes no damn sense 

 

why not give madara v4 susano but restrict the susano to only using taijutsu and physical attacks because as it stands bee is going to rape a madara restricted to just taijutsu


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## IchLiebe (Oct 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Jesus, this sounds like a Tsunade thread. Superior flicker speed and an attack that can damage B somehow translate to victory despite being horribly outclassed in actual blade skill and physical strength.



I wouldn't say Madara is horribly outclassed. What he did to the fourth division with kenjutsu was pretty damn good. I see Bee as being better and stronger while Madara is faster and it's not shunsin. What he did to Naruto and Sai (and I know Naruto blocked it) showed that it was actual footspeed as he stepped forward hit Naruto, hit a 90 degree almost to the right to hit sai and then again with a 90 degree turn and straight to Hashi.

The OP says they start in taijutsu and if they feel overwhelmed they bring out their weapons. This is where Bee loses because I don't see Madara letting him bring them out. He's shown he doesn't fuck around in taijutsu. When Madara goes to put it on Bee it's going to be a barrage. If Bee gets his swords out in time, he wins. If he doesn't, he loses.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 10, 2014)

Unless Madara hits alot harder than Juugo, which B casually tanked clean hits to his face, then he is doing 0 damage to B. 

B brings out the swords, and from there on he wears Madara down gradually and defeats him.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 10, 2014)

Whats to say Madara can't snap his neck? Or what stops Madara from grabbing the enemy's sword and using it to his advantage as he did in canon.


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## Legend777 (Oct 10, 2014)

Alex Payne said:


> Madara's feats of humiliating SM Naruto while blind is pretty crazy.



That was Madara boosted by Hashirama's DNA .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 10, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Whats to say Madara can't snap his neck?


He could if you think he is fast enough to outmanuver him and strong enough to wrestle him down.



> Or what stops Madara from grabbing the enemy's sword and using it to his advantage as he did in canon.



Hmm what stops Madara from grabbing B's swords and using it to his advantage as he did in canon... Hmm.. Let me think.

Maybe because doing that to a fucking fodder doesn't mean he can do it to the most skilled swordsman in the manga ? 

A better question is why doesn't ichliebe use his brain before he posts ?


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## IchLiebe (Oct 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He could if you think he is fast enough to outmanuver him and strong enough to wrestle him down.



What the hell does he have to wrestle him down for?



> Hmm what stops Madara from grabbing B's swords and using it to his advantage as he did in canon... Hmm.. Let me think.
> 
> Maybe because doing that to a fucking fodder doesn't mean he can do it to the most skilled swordsman in the manga ?
> 
> A better question is why doesn't ichliebe use his brain before he posts ?



Madara's quicker and can grab a sword during a taijutsu scuffle. That's some common sense there. But you are currently arguing that attacks that hurt Madara won't do anything to Yata Mirror so...


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## Alex Payne (Oct 10, 2014)

Legend777 said:


> That was Madara boosted by Hashirama's DNA .


Hashirama himself rated his performance as something he could do in his living days. 



Rocky said:


> Jesus, this sounds like a Tsunade thread. Superior flicker speed and an attack that can damage B somehow translate to victory despite being horribly outclassed in actual blade skill and physical strength.


Madara isn't _horribly outclassed_ in anything. I'd argue that difference in speed is larger than between strength/skill. Madara is the guy who can casually drop Sage Mode Naruto on his ass. SM Naruto who can completely stop giant Rhino's charge. His performance against fodders shouldn't be discarded either. Madara constantly carries weapons and uses them in battle. I don't see why we can't scale skills in one of his main areas to other fields. I mean - what is the point of constantly using advanced weaponry if your ninjutsu and genjutsu are 5 tiers above. Both Madara and Hashirama are monsters in every field and every stat.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 10, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> What the hell does he have to wrestle him down for?


People generally resist when someone attempts to break their neck.



> Madara's quicker and can grab a sword during a taijutsu scuffle. That's some common sense there. But you are currently arguing that attacks that hurt Madara won't do anything to Yata Mirror so...



Saying the same thing with different wording doesn't change anything regarding the subject.

B isn't some fodder Madara can casually fetch swords from. The chances are he loses a couple of limbs trying to do that.


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## Rocky (Oct 10, 2014)

Alex Payne said:


> Madara isn't _horribly outclassed_ in anything.



Yes, yes he is. Until I see Madara doing anything close to wielding seven swords simultaneously with enough skill to crush _another_ master swordsman (with magical eyeballs that determine attack placement before the attack occurs), then I'm sticking with "he's horribly outclassed."

I honestly have no reason to believe that Madara is a better with a sword than Sasuke is.



> Madara is the guy who can casually drop Sage Mode Naruto on his ass. SM Naruto who can completely stop giant Rhino's charge.



Omg.

Stahp.

Naruto probably wasn't expecting that random speed increase and was caught off guard. Lifting Naruto off his feet isn't hard to do if you get the jump on him, particularly because he isn't very heavy and ninja are inherently superhuman. 

If Madara had actually overpowered Naruto, it would be different. All Madara did was knock him down. Sakura did more damage to Kaguya than Madara did to Naruto there...



> His performance against fodders shouldn't be discarded either.



Should I get the scan of Sasuke wrecking 1000 cannon fodder ninja without being touched?

Fodder will _never_ perform well against relevant characters. The entire purpose of fodder is to make those characters look good by getting shitstomped.



> Madara constantly carries weapons and uses them in battle. I don't see why we can't scale skills in one of his main areas to other fields.
> 
> I mean - what is the point of constantly using advanced weaponry if your ninjutsu and genjutsu are 5 tiers above.



I don't even understand the point you're trying to make with that comment. 

Every top tier has ninjutsu (and genjutsu in some cases) that blows away their hand to hand (or weapon to weapon) skill. Carrying a weapon with you in battle does not make you some weapon god. 

Sasuke still to this day carries a sword with him, and he soloed all nine biju in less than a minute. That doesn't mean Sasuke is now 500x more skilled with that sword because his ninjutsu and genjutsu are 500x better than they were against B.


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## Hachibi (Oct 10, 2014)

Too bad Sasuke lost his sword in the Kaguya fight.

OT: It could go either way.


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## Lord Aizen (Oct 10, 2014)

The only one who can beat madara is hashirama in taijutsu/kenjutsu


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## Veracity (Oct 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Unless Madara hits alot harder than Juugo, which B casually tanked clean hits to his face, then he is doing 0 damage to B.
> 
> B brings out the swords, and from there on he wears Madara down gradually and defeats him.



Why would Madara need to hit as hard as Jugo when he has a sword ?


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## Rocky (Oct 10, 2014)

He was talking about combat without weapons, which is what they start off doing. 

If Madara brings out his sword, B will take out seven. He isn't winning that.


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## Veracity (Oct 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> He was talking about combat without weapons, which is what they start off doing.
> 
> If Madara brings out his sword, B will take out seven. He isn't winning that.



Lol yeah Madara prolly is going to win that. Being able to parallel bees seven sword dance with a single sword means he's extremely skilled in kenjustu. Then having a Gunbai that can stop all of bees swords with a single block , as well as flicker that's outright superior to bees means he's going to be overwhelming bee constantly. Bee also doesn't have the stamina to outlast Madara and certainly doesn't have the physical advantage. Then mix in the fact that Madara has better reactions then bee and Id say Madara wins.


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## Jagger (Oct 10, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> The only one who can beat madara is hashirama in taijutsu/kenjutsu


Uhm...Not really. Unless you believe Gai can be defeated by Madara in a Taijutsu match.


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