# "Prime" Nagato vs. "Healthy" Itachi



## StickaStick (May 19, 2015)

Since this still seems to be in contention I'm curious.

*Location*: Mads vs. Gokage
*Distance*: 25m
*Knowledge*: Full
*Mindset*: I.C.; To Kill
*Stipulations*: They each can use they're own powers.

Seeing as both a "Prime Nagato" and "Healthy Itachi" are misnomers are far as the manga canon is concerned, some imagination will have to come into play based on reasonable expectations.


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## UchihaX28 (May 19, 2015)

Healthy Itachi wins considering Prime Nagato's reckless and inexperienced in using his Rinnegan.

 If this is Adult, Mobile Nagato, then Nagato does win, but he doesn't totally outclass Itachi. Itachi's intelligence and perceptive abilities (managing to identify the Rinnegan's strengths despite lack of knowledge on it) implies he'd give Adult Nagato some form of difficulty.

 I can see Nagato winning with at least mid-difficulty. Low difficulty is straight-up underestimating Itachi here IMO.


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## Rocky (May 19, 2015)

There was an entire great debate to be had over this, so I'm going to try and stay general here.

I lean towards a mobile Nagato because his abilities cover all bases. Ninjutsu is useless, Itachi's taijutsu is not powerful enough to be relevant, and genjutsu may or may not be useless against Nagato's Rinnegan. Nagato's Deva & Animal powers should be capable of combating Susano'o, and with the superior Chakra pool, Itachi will tire first. Chibaku Tensei is also a game ender that Itachi cannot replicate. 

Itachi has a shot because he's always been one to rely more on precision than power, and Nagato, in all of his showings, has been seen as mistake prone. Mistakes get you dead against shinobi like Itachi, so even as the on-paper superior fighter Nagato could find himself on the losing end here.

Nagato 7/10, High diff.


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## Bonly (May 19, 2015)

As always I believe Nagato will win more times then not. He's got a counter to almost everything Itachi can throw his way while at the same time his arsenal has the potenial to keep Itachi constantly on defense while wasting chakra. Either Itachi outright gets overwhelmed before he tires out or he gets tired and then overwhelmed.


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## Eliyua23 (May 19, 2015)

Lets see 

Nagato has the better feats , the better eyes , more stamina , better ninjutsu , counters for everything Itachi has to throw at him , had a higher standing within the same organization , Itachi only defeated Nagato with the help of two other Kage level shinobi , all around Nagato is the stronger character by probably at least a tier.


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## Dr. Leonard Church (May 19, 2015)

With full knowledge Nagato's mindset is going to be something along the lines of "make distance" and "ranged fuckstorm". Itachi has no strong ranged attacks  outside of Amaterasu (which Hebi Sasuke outran) and Yasakani Magatama (chakra based...yeah). Itachi's goal has to involve blitzing forward with genjutsu/crows as cover, and sealing Nagato with the Totsuka or managing a sneak attack with his kunai (lol).

Even though the distance does favor Itachi (like, 25m is really good for blitz-focused teams) I'm still giving the advantage to Nagato. Nagato has many counters to Itachi's blitz/genjutsu attempts in the forms of summons, missiles, and Shinra Tensei. Offensively the former two won't kill Itachi due to his Susanoo, but Shinra Tensei is a nigh-unblockable technique that definitely would buy Nagato significant time. Pop on the bird, fly away, gg.


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## Empathy (May 19, 2015)

I always saw Edo Itachi's fights against Edo Nagato and Kabuto as Itachi losing to them on an individual basis just before defeating them. I think that's reflective of the not-being-able-to-shoulder-burdens-on-your-own thing that he promoted after his death, and it's what changed about him compared to when he was living (failing on your own, but being able to accomplish things when working together). For example, he was cut in half just before completing _Izanami_ (though, there might be a convincing argument that was on purpose). He needed Sasuke to save him before then, but that was only because he misread and tried to protect Sasuke; it wouldn't apply to him on an individual level if Sasuke's presence were removed. The same I think is the case with Nagato. 

Nagato had Itachi defeated on his own the moment he brought out _Chibaku Tensei_ when Itachi wouldn't have been able to escape alone, in the same vein that Nagato had Naruto and Bee defeated on individual levels just before Itachi saved them; none of them could defeat Edo Nagato on their own (which is reflective of the fight being 3v1—I really couldn't imagine Itachi posing a credible threat if Nagato had somehow broken free instead). Nagato also had Naruto and Bee individually defeated again when he brought out _Chibaku Tensei_ just as with Itachi, because they needed Itachi's insight to know to attack the core (the only one I think had enough firepower to get out alone was Bee). The point is, if you remove anyone's presence in Edo Itachi's fights then he couldn't have succeeded in the same way. Well I guess Itachi and Bee had enough firepower between them that you could remove Naruto (though Bee couldn't have lasted before Itachi switched sides), but he's the main character.

*Edit:* I also always found the BD's, "_Itachi soloes_," thing funny after Edo Itachi started preaching teamwork so hard. It's like the author saw that in the BD and then decided to go in the complete opposite direction of that.


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## LostSelf (May 19, 2015)

Empathy summarized it perfectly. The point of the chapter was getting farther relying on your friends and failing trying to do it alone. That fight perfectly showcased that. They needed to team up to defeat Nagato.

In the same fight, Nagato showed to be able to counter most of Itachi's deadliest attacks. If Nagato were Itachi's enemy, what would've happened when he sensed Itachi building up chakra in his eye? He did so with enough time for Naruto to jump and Bee to attack, and he had to protect Itachi with that.

The Shinra Tensei Nagato used to deflect Bee's sword could've been the one that killed or badly injured Itachi, and the fight would've been over right there.

Nagato showcased the reflexes to react to Itachi, the AoE necessary to force him to retreat, the durability to take Itachi's hits and the finisher to kill him if somehow things gets worse.

A blitz or a surprise attack physically is also the worst someone can do when their enemy has a jutsu that activates on thought. We've seen how helpful those have been all over the manga. And Nagato happens to have a very deadly one if he desires it to be.

Nagato wins this hands down.

Edit: I thought Rocky was Strategoob. I was thinking '_WTF am i reading?_' when i was reading his (very good) argument. I couldn't believe Strategoob would've been saying something like this. Then i read the name .


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## Kai (May 19, 2015)

Nagato high difficulty.

They may have a CQC exchange sequence- Asura's mechanical arms will defend against Itachi's taijutsu kicks and Preta Path will be used against Itachi's elemental ninjutsu. Nagato may point out that Itachi has the fastest hand seals. 

At some point Nagato will be introducing more paths, and an Animal Path combined with an array of Asura missiles aimed at Itachi will force Itachi to release Susanoo. Susanoo defends from the missiles and kills animal summons. Sharingan genjutsu isn't likely to work on summons controlled by the Rinnegan. Itachi can kill Cerberus with Amaterasu at a cost, but any attempts made at Nagato will be sensed and absorbed. Yata's Mirror + Totsuka blade is strong enough to clear Nagato's conventional offenses though. 

At this point Nagato can still opt for either of his two gravitational trump cards while Itachi is struggling in pain to keep up. A fight against the Rinnegan's power would demand for a heavy amount of chakra from anyone.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2015)

Keep in mind that mobile Nagato ultimately failed to kill Hanzou and was crippled by exploding tags. Flashy giant ninjutsu comes second to ninja brilliance, and Itachi's as brilliant as they come. 



^ pointedly said after Itachi sealed Nagato.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 20, 2015)

I believe Nagato to be stronger overall, but Itachi is the better shinobi.

Itachi wins this. Kicks a dust cloud and stabs Nagato with Totsuka.



Strategoob said:


> Keep in mind that mobile Nagato ultimately failed to kill Hanzou and was crippled by exploding tags. Flashy giant ninjutsu comes second to ninja brilliance, and Itachi's as brilliant as they come.
> 
> 
> 
> ^ pointedly said after Itachi sealed Nagato.​



Itachi hype train 

Seriously, I hate how people misinterpret the whole Nagato Itachi battle. It wasn't a battle between Nagato and 3 other guys. It was a battle between Itachi & Nagato. B & Naruto were there to ensure Itachi's swift victory. 

When everything was said and done, Nagato's apology was directed @ Itachi, because Itachi was his peer, not the others. And B's wank clearly shows who the top dog in that battle was.

Kabuto shitting his pants a couple of times leaves no doubt about Itachi's supremacy.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Since this still seems to be in contention I'm curious.
> 
> *Location*: Mads vs. Gokage
> *Distance*: 25m
> ...



Healthy Itachi is just the same Itachi that Hebi Sasuke owned who can dodge shuriken and doesn't cough. 

Prime Nagato is the shinobi who had impressive speed and full Rinnegan mastery. 

Nagato wins, easily. Like always. Remember guys, Edo Nagato's ST turned Edo Itachi into dust whilst super tanks like KCM Naruto and Bee could witstand it. 

Itachi gets stomped; Shinra Tensei cannot be anticipated and always catches the victims off guard. This time, Itachi can't reform into dust, or hope that Nagato (who isn't even mind controlled and immobile) is paying attentions on foes who're 100x stronger than Itachi.

I said it, one Shinra Tensei will end this. Since it comes from a Nagato who isn't emaciated whose got an authentic Rinnegan, it'll be more powerful than the one that turned Edo Itachi into dust.

No, taking the comments and feats from the the trio vs Edo Nagato far out of context isn't good evidence. It is very bad evidence that isn't convincing... just like when the notion was first introduced.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

itachi looses mid diff
eventually he wont be able to keep his susanoo up which would be the only thing saving him from nukes nagato can throw at him 

nagato got counters to everything bar totsuka which can be deflected with ST


itachi lasts a few minutes then drops to the ground exhausted

though he could trick nagato seeing that he is smarter. but nagato got the clear upper hand


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## LostSelf (May 20, 2015)

Being smarter or being the better shinobi are not i win buttons. I am pretty sure Hashirama would stomp Itachi while the latter is smarter and the "better shinobi" .

But it's like Kai said. Itachi dies in his Susano'o. Nagato has too much firepower for him to handle.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 20, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Being smarter or being the better shinobi are not i win buttons. I am pretty sure Hashirama would stomp Itachi while the latter is smarter and the "better shinobi" .
> 
> But it's like Kai said. Itachi dies in his Susano'o. Nagato has too much firepower for him to handle.



Hashirama would stomp Nagato too. 

Being smarter  and more skilled can close some gaps in power, unless the gap is extreme, like in the case of Hashirama/Madara & Itachi. The gap between Nagato and Itachi isn't as big as the gap between Itachi & Hashirama.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

true though nagato can be an idiot or you can think he is 
doesnt stop him from using village busting ST
which itachi must be camped in susanoo to not miserably die from 

difference nagato can keep spamming nukes of that size. itachi simply cannot keep susanoo that long


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## LostSelf (May 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hashirama would stomp Nagato too.
> 
> Being smarter  and more skilled can close some gaps in power, unless the gap is extreme, like in the case of Hashirama/Madara & Itachi. The gap between Nagato and Itachi isn't as big as the gap between Itachi & Hashirama.



Yes, he would. I wouldn't say Itachi is more skilled. In what? Because when it comes to developing jutsus, Nagato developed more. And developed incredibly strong jutsus like creating an exact copy of the fighter, etc. And, not counting the young one rampaging, has shown not to be an idiot.

Smarter, yeah. However, when you have the right tools for that, its hardly a game changer. Kakashi is way smarter than Gai, and they both were presented as equals without the eight gate.

Nagato and Itachi are not equals and the inteligence gap between Kakashi and Gai is not bigger than the one between Itachi and Nagato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

Every person who fights the Preta Path always agrees that Ninjutsu is out of the picture. The databook says Taijutsu is useless due to Demon Realm (Itachi doesn't have the Taijutsu abilities to be an exception to the rule). 

Being a top tier sensor, Nagato can easily see when he's under any illusion, or see if Itachi is planning to use such jutsu coupled with his Rinnegan's own vision. Genjutsu is pretty much out.

Kakashi was able to resist Tsukuyomi, just a little. That's a non-Uchiha with just a Sharingan. An Uchiha with the Sharingan was able to completely resist Tsukuyomi. 
It is doubtful Tsukuyomi will work on a Rikudou (one with Uchiha-Senju chakra) with the highest level the Sharingan could possibly reach. 

Itachi's pretty fucked... especially considering canonically he became dust after one Shinra Tensei. Here he'll probably he dead with that. Lets not forget you cannot anticipate Shinra Tensei as per the manga and databook.


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## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

> I am pretty sure Hashirama would stomp Itachi while the latter is smarter and the "better shinobi" .



Itachi is smarter then Hashirama? Wat?

Hashirama created a new world system, Hashirama survived during so many years of war, Hashirama beat Madara twice (the same Madara who has better intelligence feats then Itachi).

The "better' shinobi? Probably. But smarter? No way.


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## Pocalypse (May 20, 2015)

Nagato wins this with mid difficulty. 

Edo Nagato's battle was to showcase his superiorty on an individual basis compared to the other three characters, Naruto, Bee and Itachi. Heck, even the chapter was called "Stop Nagato" It took three of them to take out his strongest attack. Nagato already had Naruto and Bee defeated, took Itachi to save them and if Naruto and Bee weren't there, Itachi would have been defeated too. Itachi got blown the fuck away by a normal Shinra Tensei. If Nagato decided to up the ante with these attacks, it's just too much for Itachi. 

Also, this battle isn't in Amegakure either so Nagato can just go full force if he wished. He has everything to counter Itachi's arsenal plus even more deadlier attacks with more stamina.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

tskuyomi, amaterasu and susanoo can be trolled by nagato quite simply 
itachi cant beat those odds .

but itachi+KCM+killer bee>>>>>>>>>nagato just thought i should say that


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 20, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Yes, he would. I wouldn't say Itachi is more skilled. In what? Because when it comes to developing jutsus, Nagato developed more.
> 
> And developed incredibly strong jutsus like creating an exact copy of the fighter, etc. And, not counting the young one rampaging, has shown not to be an idiot.



What did Nagato develop ? Everything he has shown is more or less rinnegan related(if it isn't an innate rinnegan ability, then it is something rinnegan allowed him to master). 

I'm talking about being skilled @ using tools @ their disposal, tactics etc. Jutsu developing doesn't transfer directly into the battleground.



> Smarter, yeah. However, when you have the right tools for that, its hardly a game changer. Kakashi is way smarter than Gai, and they both were presented as equals without the eight gate.
> 
> Nagato and Itachi are not equals and the inteligence gap between Kakashi and Gai is not bigger than the one between Itachi and Nagato.



Umm.. correct me If I'm wrong but no one claimed Kakashi and Gai are equals in power right ? 

They are equals when everything at their disposal are taken into account, which includes Kakashi's intelligence and tactical prowess and skill. If you remove them, Gai'd bust out gates and prisonrape him.



StarWanderer said:


> Itachi is smarter then Hashirama? Wat?
> 
> Hashirama created a new world system, Hashirama survived during so many years of war, Hashirama beat Madara twice (the same Madara who has better intelligence feats then Itachi).
> 
> The "better' shinobi? Probably. But smarter? No way.



Madara is more intelligent than Itachi ? 


He was the dumbest friend alive(bar obito) 

Also Hashirama has no intelligence feats or whatsoever. He is just a goofy guy with a hugeass dick.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

What stops Nagato from using the chameleon Itachi's Sharingan couldn't perceive to hide and surprise Itachi with the Shinra Tensei which turned his Edo form into dust? There is literally no counter to this.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 20, 2015)

Sharingan can see the chamelon.


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## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

> Madara is more intelligent than Itachi ?



Yes.



> He was the dumbest friend alive(bar obito)



Yeah, the same Obito who manipulated the whole shinobi world and dragged it into 4th Shinobi World War. The dumbest friend alive. Who, by the way, tricked Itachi himself (Itachi thought Obito doesnt know about his "truth").

Madara survived a fight with Hashirama by storing one of the best sharingan's techniques in his aye before the battle happened, tricked Obito, and made up a plan that almost doomed the world. Such a dumb friend. 

Madara has better intelligence feats then Itachi.



> Also Hashirama has no intelligence feats or whatsoever. He is just a goofy guy with a hugeass dick.



Re-shaped shinobi world by his new village-kage system, survived years of war conflicts and beat Madara, one of the most, feats-wise, intelligent shinobi, 2 times. Yeah, no intelligence feats. Just a goofy guy. Yeah.

Maybe we should talk about Itachi's intelligence feats?


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## Empathy (May 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kicks a dust cloud and stabs Nagato with Totsuka.



And what if Nagato flies?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sharingan can see the chamelon.



The chameleon was right in front of him and he didn't see it. That's why he became dust after being owned by ST.


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## T-Bag (May 20, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What stops Nagato from using the chameleon Itachi's Sharingan couldn't perceive to hide and surprise Itachi with the Shinra Tensei which turned his Edo form into dust? There is literally no counter to this.



There is always a counter when itachi is involved, we have seen this over and over lol

Itachi was stated to be on a different level from nagato altogether. He might not have the raw power nagato does, but with his mangekyo combined with his ability to think 3 steps ahead makes him a better shinobi


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## Ashi (May 20, 2015)

Empathy said:


> And what if Nagato flies?



Nagato can fly?


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## ShadoLord (May 20, 2015)

Nagato is the stronger ninja overall, so Nagato defeats Healthy Itachi.


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## Empathy (May 20, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Nagato can fly?



He flew on his bird summon and Deva could levitate. If Nagato flies then the _Totsuka_ can't reach him. _Yasaka no Magatama_ and _Amaterasu_ are pretty easily mitigated through _Shinra Tensei_ and _Fuujutsu Kyuuin_.


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## StickaStick (May 20, 2015)

It still baffles me how after all this time and all the evidence, including , that some people still don't understand that Itachi was one of thee worst decision makers around based on the goals he wanted to achieve. Some would call this a sign of being "dumb". In terms of overall intelligence Madara, Obito, and Hashirama have Itachi beat. This is hardly debatable when one looks at the plethora of evidence _without bias_.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Itachi was one of thee worst decision makers around based on the goals he wanted to achieve. In terms of overall intelligence Madara, Obito, and Hashirama have Itachi beat.





> Obito





> Obito





> *Obito*



Obito wanted to enslave the planet in an illusion because his kindergarten crush bit the dust.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 20, 2015)

How one can interpret intelligence in such "unbiased" way when all these guys have different extent of knowledge and tools possessed under vastly different circumstances is so funny. 

Achieving goals with hax power and tons of information doesn't equate to the smartest guy ever lives, Jesus Christ. By that logic Crapguya should be the smartest person ever lived in this world.


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## LostSelf (May 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What did Nagato develop ? Everything he has shown is more or less rinnegan related(if it isn't an innate rinnegan ability, then it is something rinnegan allowed him to master).
> 
> I'm talking about being skilled @ using tools @ their disposal, tactics etc. Jutsu developing doesn't transfer directly into the battleground.



But he developed them. I mean, we don't know if Rinnegan allowed him to create those jutsus that are not related to the 6 paths of Pain or Gedo Mazo. Rinnegan might've allowed it, but he had to create them and master them, and the copy trap jutsu it's a freaking broken one if used correctly. If you mean tactically using their jutsus, i think both are pretty good using their own attacks.

Tools at their disposal, yeah, i agree. Even though Nagato doesn't use anything outside of his jutsus. 


> Umm.. correct me If I'm wrong but no one claimed Kakashi and Gai are equals in power right ?
> 
> They are equals when everything at their disposal are taken into account, which includes Kakashi's intelligence and tactical prowess and skill. If you remove them, Gai'd bust out gates and prisonrape him.



Rivals tends to be similar in power. Both have been praised (By Itachi himself, atcually), their record at fighting that, i think should've been mostly battles considering Gai developed the anti-genjutsu tactic, etc.  If you add inteligence to power, then yeah, i have no problem with that.

However, adding it to power overall wouldn't be used as a game changer even if both are similar in inteligence. Using one example, if Itachi is below Nagato overall, his inteligence won't be the game changer as he is below him with inteligence included. Removing it or giving him a normal IQ would increase the gap.

The same would be said if, (another example) Itachi were equal to SM Naruto. Inteligence wouldn't be a game changer here considering he is equal to Naruto with his inteligence included.


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## StickaStick (May 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Obito wanted to enslave the planet in an illusion because his kindergarten crush bit the dust.



That's actually not even true (see Obito's conversation with Kakashi in Kamuiland), but I digress. 

Now tell me, what does this have to do with Obito's intelligence?



Legendary Itachi said:


> How one can interpret intelligence in such "unbiased" way when all these guys have different extent of knowledge and tools possessed under vastly different circumstances is so funny.


We do this all the time in the BD by taking feats and portrayal from the manga canon and applying them to how we think things would turn out in a hypothetical fight. We can do the same with portrayed and demonstrated intelligence. As far as the being "unbiased" part, I admit that must be harder for some than others  But frankly that's inherent in any kind of discussion.  



> Achieving goals with hax power and tons of information doesn't equate to the smartest guy ever lives, Jesus Christ. *By that logic Crapguya should be the smartest person ever lived in this world.*


Replace Kaguya with BZ and you're close to being right on the money.


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## StarWanderer (May 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> That's actually not even true (see Obito's conversation with Kakashi in Kamuiland), but I digress.
> 
> Now tell me, what does this have to do with Obito's intelligence?



Obito is one of the most intelligent characters in Narutoverse and he has better intelligence feats then Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Obito is one of the most intelligent characters in Narutoverse and he has better intelligence feats then Itachi.



He was also "" by Itachi.

Indicating Itachi was on a higher level.

Not that Obito isn't smart. Itachi's just _the_ smartest in Narutoverse.


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## StarWanderer (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> He was also "" by Itachi.
> 
> Indicating Itachi was on a higher level.
> 
> Not that Obito isn't smart. Itachi's just _the_ smartest in Narutoverse.



1. A teacher in school can be amazed by his pupil, does that mean pupil is smarter then teacher?
2. Itachi isnt the smartest in Narutoverse. He doesnt  have *feats* good enough to put him at a top of the mountain.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> 1. A teacher in school can be amazed by his pupil, does that mean pupil is smarter then teacher?



If a teacher is "ceaselessly amazed" by his pupil, then _yeah_.

Note that intelligence or talent is not knowledge.



StarWanderer said:


> 2. Itachi isnt the smartest in Narutoverse. He doesnt  have *feats* good enough to put him at a top of the mountain.



His feat of foreseeing  of a Kage level fight is the best one.

Kabuto likens his predictive/planning power to reading souls.


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## StarWanderer (May 21, 2015)

> If a teacher is "ceaselessly amazed" by his pupil, then yeah.
> 
> Note that intelligence or talent is not knowledge.



No. Teacher can be always amazed by his pupil, but that doesnt prove pupil is smarter then teacher. I can be always/ceaselessly amazed by a debater, yet i know i am better. 

So those words prove nothing at all.

Yeah, i know. Obito is still smarter then Itachi. 



> His feat of foreseeing every aspect of a Kage level fight is the best one.



Because he knew Sasuke. And Sasuke wasnt as smart as Obito at that time.



> Kabuto likens his predictive/planning power to reading souls.



Yeah, thats great. I knew Itachi is smart. But he is not the smartest character in Narutoverse. Obito manipulated the whole Akatsuki, manipulated Fourth Mizukage and dragged the whole world into 4th Shinobi World War.

Madara tricked Obito, tricked lots of shinobi during 4th Shinobi World War and came up with a plan which almost completely doomed Narutoverse.

Hashirama re-shaped the world with his new village-kage system and beat Madara twice. 

Itachi is clearly not the smartest.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> It still baffles me how after all this time and all the evidence, including , that some people still don't understand that Itachi was one of thee worst decision makers around based on the goals he wanted to achieve. Some would call this a sign of being "dumb". In terms of overall intelligence Madara, Obito, and Hashirama have Itachi beat. This is hardly debatable when one looks at the plethora of evidence _without bias_.



You gotta read  the manga.



Empathy said:


> And what if Nagato flies?



Totsuka extends.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The chameleon was right in front of him and he didn't see it. That's why he became dust after being owned by ST.



We actually never got to see Itachi get hit. It is your imagination running wild again.

Also sharingan doesn't see chakra by default, unless you activate chakra vision. 


StarWanderer said:


> Yes.



No.



> Yeah, the same Obito who manipulated the whole shinobi world and dragged it into 4th Shinobi World War. The dumbest friend alive. Who, by the way, tricked Itachi himself (Itachi thought Obito doesnt know about his "truth").


Obito was a manipulated individual himself. He was just a puppet. Tricking someone doesn't mean you'r more intelligent than them. 
Obito had more resources and knowledge than 13 year old Itachi, so it iwasn't hard from him to simply lie to Itachi and pretend. 



> Madara survived a fight with Hashirama by storing one of the best sharingan's techniques in his aye before the battle happened,


Itachi's feats dwarf his.


> tricked Obito, and made up a plan that almost doomed the world. Such a dumb friend.


Yes, tricking a stupid 13 year old makes you smart




> Madara has better intelligence feats then Itachi.


He doesn't have notable intelligence feats.



> Re-shaped shinobi world by his new village-kage system


Thats leadership and charisma. Hashirama simply became stronger than everyone else and made things his way. 



> , survived years of war conflicts and beat Madara, one of the most, feats-wise, intelligent shinobi, 2 times. Yeah, no intelligence feats. Just a goofy guy. Yeah.


Lol.


> Maybe we should talk about Itachi's intelligence feats?


We'd go over the word limit.



LostSelf said:


> Rivals tends to be similar in power. Both have been praised (By Itachi himself, atcually), their record at fighting that, i think should've been mostly battles considering Gai developed the anti-genjutsu tactic, etc.  If you add inteligence to power, then yeah, i have no problem with that.
> 
> However, adding it to power overall wouldn't be used as a game changer even if both are similar in inteligence. Using one example, if Itachi is below Nagato overall, his inteligence won't be the game changer as he is below him with inteligence included. Removing it or giving him a normal IQ would increase the gap.
> 
> The same would be said if, (another example) Itachi were equal to SM Naruto. Inteligence wouldn't be a game changer here considering he is equal to Naruto with his inteligence included.




You completely lost me here(no pun intended).

My argument is that, a weaker shinobi can defeat a stronger one(talking about power here)by closing the gap with their skill and intelligence. As long as the gap in power isn't huge and as long as they have to tools to defeat the other shinobi of course.
From my point of view, it applies to Itachi & Nagato.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> No. Teacher can be always amazed by his pupil, but that doesnt prove pupil is smarter then teacher. I can be always/ceaselessly amazed by a debater, yet i know i am better.



Smarts and knowledge aren't the same thing.

The teacher may have more knowledge, but that doesn't mean he/she is smarter.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 21, 2015)

When we've resorted to distorting the context of statements made about Itachi's intelligence and using the token Totsuka comments (also out of context): it is clear the Itachi arguments don't hold any water. 

The dude literally lack the firepower to take on the mega tier foes on his own. Luckily he had allies 100x stronger than him both times. We should stick to Jiraiya vs Itachi, since that's the sort of tier Itachi actually stands a chance of not being lolstomped.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> When we've resorted to distorting the context of statements made about Itachi's intelligence and using the token Totsuka comments (also out of context): it is clear the Itachi arguments don't hold any water.
> 
> The dude literally lack the firepower to take on the mega tier foes on his own. Luckily he had allies 100x stronger than him both times. We should stick to Jiraiya vs Itachi, since that's the sort of tier Itachi actually stands a chance of not being lolstomped.



Totsuka is powerful enough to oneshot Nagato though. What are your thoughts on that ?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Totsuka is powerful enough to oneshot Nagato though. What are your thoughts on that ?



Another out of context argument. Really speaks volumes about the Itachi stance here.

I guess I gotta ignore Kabuto controlling Nagato (without knowing all his powers like sensing) and the fact that Totsuka could always be repelled or absorbed. Then again, with your logic I gotta ignore that Kabuto set it so Edo Tensei (without Koto re-writes) cannot attack other Edo.

The problem with your arguments are I have to ignore a lot of manga facts and distort a lot of context in the manga. Perfect if I wanted to make a weak-ass argument, but not good if I wanted to make a sensible argument. 'Cause sensible doesn't mean I ignore and distort evidence.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 21, 2015)

Prime Nagato should defeat Healthy Itachi more often than not, but he'd experience lots of difficulty in the process.The thing is, I think Itachi would utilize full knowledge better than Nagato and formulate counters that are tactically superior, so he might be able to pull out some victories in this kind of scenario.

With full knowledge, Itachi can force Nagato to use his best abilities - Chou Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei - which would make the fight high-diff at the very least, considering the former even shortens his life. Final Susano'o w/ Yata no Kagami should be fully capable of tanking Chou Shinra Tensei, though he'd probably feel the impact a bit from within. Similarly, I'm under the impression that Yasaka no Magatama or concentrated forms of Amaterasu can incinerate Chibaku Tensei's gravitational orb in earlier stages. Unless Nagato summons the statue, Itachi steamrolls the other summons with Amaterasu and Totsuka. Nagato's best approach would be playing defense and levitating more frequently to exhaust Itachi's chakra reserves - all the while avoiding Totsuka - and he can spam from the skies with Shuradou.

Prime Nagato. 6/10 times with high-very high difficulty


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## Pocalypse (May 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Totsuka is powerful enough to oneshot Nagato though. What are your thoughts on that ?



This isn't a great method is it?

Nagato has CT, what's Itachi's answer to that? Or Chou ST where he can keep blowing away Itachi until he crumbles? The Totsuka landed due to 3 people's help, not 1.

Let's not forget that once CT even starts in its baby phase, targets are automatically being absorbed by the attack. Itachi's Magatama attack isn't enough to destroy it, only in combination with other powerhouse attacks.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Another out of context argument. Really speaks volumes about the Itachi stance here.
> 
> I guess I gotta ignore Kabuto controlling Nagato (without knowing all his powers like sensing) and the fact that Totsuka could always be repelled or absorbed. Then again, with your logic I gotta ignore that Kabuto set it so Edo Tensei (without Koto re-writes) cannot attack other Edo.
> 
> The problem with your arguments are I have to ignore a lot of manga facts and distort a lot of context in the manga. Perfect if I wanted to make a weak-ass argument, but not good if I wanted to make a sensible argument. 'Cause sensible doesn't mean I ignore and distort evidence.



Actually Kabuto didn't control Nagato, he simply killed his personality and turned him into a robot. In which case Nagato was less prone to IC errors he'd make normally. And with that in mind, its arguable whether it was a bad thing or not.



Pocalypse said:


> This isn't a great method is it?
> 
> Nagato has CT, what's Itachi's answer to that? Or Chou ST where he can keep blowing away Itachi until he crumbles? The Totsuka landed due to 3 people's help, not 1.
> 
> Let's not forget that once CT even starts in its baby phase, targets are automatically being absorbed by the attack. Itachi's Magatama attack isn't enough to destroy it, only in combination with other powerhouse attacks.



Yours isn't a great method either. Munboy is arguing that Itachi doesn't have fire power to kill Nagato, but manga proves otherwise. 

CT is destroyed by Magatama initially, CST can be tanked by Susano'o and Yata. 
Totsuka landed because Itachi thrusted it through a dust cloud, not because B and Naruto did something.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Actually Kabuto didn't control Nagato, he simply killed his personality and turned him into a robot. In which case Nagato was less prone to IC errors he'd make normally. And with that in mind, its arguable whether it was a bad thing or not.



So despite Kabuto controlling Nagato's movements, actions and the jutsu he used... Nagato wasn't controlled. Saying he's less prone to IC errors he'd normally make when he didn't even sense; he sensed Amaterasu and outsensed an entire platoon. 

Do you see what I'm talking about when I say your stance involves a lot of ignoring manga facts and distorting context? This is the main reason why I never buy the Itachi arguments I see in this forum


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So despite Kabuto controlling Nagato's movements, actions and the jutsu he used... Nagato wasn't controlled. Saying he's less prone to IC errors he'd normally make when he didn't even sense; he sensed Amaterasu and outsensed an entire platoon.
> 
> Do you see what I'm talking about when I say your stance involves a lot of ignoring manga facts and distorting context? This is the main reason why I never buy the Itachi arguments I see in this forum



Where is it stated or shown that Kabuto was controlling Nagato(Kabuto is smarter than Nagato anyways) ? 

Also sensing =/= omnipotence, you can't react to everything you can sense. Kabuto surely didn't lose his sensory abilities when Sasuke's arrow nailed him in the tail, the same arrow he was able to dodge comfortably a minute ago.

It might also be the fact that Nagato was caught off guard because he was busy trying to maintain CT.


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## StickaStick (May 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You gotta read  the manga.


I have and the evidence indicates that you're highly overrating Itachi's intelligence in comparison to other characters. Itachi's plans have failed at basically every step of the way--in some very predictable ways to boot. And, again, we have Itachi himself telling us in the end "he only failed". You refuse to acknowledge the character Kishi had developed for him in favor of cherry picking select statements and feats and either blowing them out of proportion or outright distorting them. That's on you bro, not me.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Um no. Itachi's contigency succeeded. Hence Itachi _saving Naruto and Bee_, and _converting Sasuke_ into helping Konoha save the world from the Akatsuki machinations. His plans saved the world.

And despite Itachi saying he failed, which is _modesty_, we have many characters praising him to the absolute highest degree, especially those who knew he "failed." (Obito, Kabuto, Sasuke.)​


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I have and the evidence indicates that you're highly overrating Itachi's intelligence in comparison to other characters. Itachi's plans have failed at basically every step of the way--in some very predictable ways to boot. And, again, we have Itachi himself telling us in the end "he only failed". You refuse to acknowledge the character Kishi had developed for him in favor of cherry picking select statements and feats and either blowing them out of proportion or outright distorting them. That's on you bro, not me.



Itachi was simply being modest. And his plan only failed because Tobi threw a wrench in it, after Itachi died.

Itachi's point was trying to do everything yourself was too much of a burden and would eventually lead to failiure. Not that his decisions were terrible or anything. 

BTW, Madara's, Obito's, Kabuto's, Nagato's and Black Zetsu's plans failed too and their motives and decisions were much worse than Itachi's.

After hearing Itachi's story, Hashirama called him a better shinobi than himself, he didn't say anything like "he is the worst decision maker" as you'r claiming him to be. So you gotta read that manga, bruv.

edit : And yes, Itachi's plan succeeded in the end, he just needed to come back and fix a few things(things he and some others broke).


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Itachi also made his plans with _very_ limited knowledge about his enemies plans and knowledge due to Obito being extraordinarily cautious (read: scared) of him, even saying that Itachi could "certainly kill him" with more knowledge.

So Itachi adjusting his contingency plan when possible, or even having a contingency plan in the first place given he didn't know Obito knew the truth about him, is a boon to his intelligence. With so little knowledge, Itachi planned well, hence Obito's amazement.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

Yeah that too... That foresight and Amaterasu trap. Too bad Obito had Izanagi.


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## StickaStick (May 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi was simply being modest.


Prove it. Managa disagree with you btw so GL with that.



> And his plan only failed because Tobi threw a wrench in it, after Itachi died.


You'd have a solid point if his plan didn't fail _predictably_. What did Itachi think Tobi/Obito was going to do?



> Itachi's point was trying to do everything yourself was too much of a burden and would eventually lead to failiure. Not that his decisions were terrible or anything.


What would you call mind-fucking Sasuke and turning him batshit?



> BTW, Madara's, Obito's, Kabuto's, Nagato's and Black Zetsu's plans failed too and their motives and decisions were much worse than Itachi's.


So that basically puts them all into the same basket. 

Somehow that makes them idiots and Itachi a genius.



> After hearing Itachi's story, Hashirama called him a better shinobi than himself, he didn't say anything like "he is the worst decision maker" as you'r claiming him to be. So you gotta read that manga, bruv.


Hashirama heard about his selflessness and made the comment. He didn't hear about everything else.

I wonder what he would think about Itachi mind-rapping Sasuke multiple times?



> edit : And yes, Itachi's plan succeeded in the end, he just needed to come back and fix a few things(things he and some others broke).


What? 

Itachi's goal was to bring Sasuke back to the leaf. He was so counter-productive in doing so it's almost unbelievable. Sasuke was out to kill Naruto (et al.) and reshape the shinobi system til the very end until Naruto finally beat the shit out of him and out-willed him.



Strategoob said:


> Um no. Itachi's contigency succeeded. Hence Itachi _saving Naruto and Bee_, and _converting Sasuke_ into helping Konoha save the world from the Akatsuki machinations. His plans saved the world.
> 
> And despite Itachi saying he failed, which is _modesty_, we have many characters praising him to the absolute highest degree, especially those who knew he "failed." (Obito, Kabuto, Sasuke.)​


No offense man but this is part of the reason why I don't take you guys seriously on this stuff.

Itachi admitting he failed (w/ plenty of support to back it up) = modestly

Hashirama telling Sasuke (who was obviously very fickle ATM) Itachi was a better shinobi = truthful



Don't get me wrong: Itachi is a smart friend but when we start saying he blows everyone else out of the water in terms of intelligence, despite mass evidence to the contrary, then we start stepping into delusional land.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Given the _results_, it was factually modesty. It's not debatable. Itachi foresaw the possibility of Obito knowing more than he thought, messing up his plan, and so he set up two contingency plans.

The second contingency plan resulted in Naruto and Bee being saved, and Sasuke converted. _What part sounds like only failure?_ He saved Konoha and the world despite knowing so little. 

You're overly focused on his _factually modest_ response to Kabuto after Kabuto exclaimed that there was no greater foil to his Edo Tensei than Itachi and his unique abilities and personal strengths.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

I was gonna reply but Strategoob did for me. 

Itachi had 2 fail safes for Sasuke. One of them was to shut Obito up with the Amaterasu trap, which failed, the other was to Koto Sasuke. The Koto part didn't happen solely because Itachi ended up meeting Naruto first.

Are you going to tell me that Itachi being ET'd and meeting Naruto, thus being suspect to Koto was predictable ? I'm talking about your "failed predictably" remark.

No you'r not.


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## StickaStick (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Given the results, it was modesty.​



The result was Sasuke trying to kill Naruto (et al.) and reform the shinobi system. Scan to Itachi saying this is what he wanted pls?



> It's not debatable. Itachi foresaw the possibility of Obito knowing more than he thought, messing up his plan, and so he set up two contingency plans.


His contingency plan was to Koto Sasuke into "protecting the leaf" and that failed. The fact that he instead was Koto'd and was able to be of some further use does not negate that. 

Should I also point out that Itachi's goal at that point was to leave Sasuke to Naruto and end the threat of ET and he failed at both of those as well? 



> The second contingency plan resulted in Naruto and Bee being saved, and Sasuke being converted. What part of that is a failure? He saved Konoha and the world despite knowing so little.


Saving Naruto and Bee was not his original intention. You're trying to give him credit for an unforeseen externality. 

You're also denying credit to the numerous number of individuals who helped along the way.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi had 2 fail safes for Sasuke. One of them was to shut Obito up with the Amaterasu trap, which failed, the other was to Koto Sasuke. The Koto part didn't happen solely because Itachi ended up meeting Naruto first.
> 
> Are you going to tell me that Itachi being ET'd and meeting Naruto, thus being suspect to Koto was predictable ? I'm talking about your "failed predictably" remark.
> 
> No you'r not.


My failed predictably remark was in regards to the Obito part. 

Now tell me how Itachi didn't suspect Madara Uchiha of all people to know how to use Izanagi. I'll wait ​


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

You're just being biased now. Sasuke was no longer manipulated by Obito (noted by Orochimaru,) which was the intention. Naruto and Bee were saved as an opportunistic adjustment to the plan. 

Without Itachi's contigency plan, Naruto and be Bee would be dead, and Sasuke would continue being manipulated by Obito flaming his hatred and guilt over Itachi. Madara would've won.

Despite knowing Itachi "failed" (saved the world with his actions,) Sasuke, Bee, Hashirama, Kabuto, Obito, and Danzou considered Itachi to be a "brilliant" and "near-perfect" and shinobi. 

That's all the people that knew the truth. Nobody considered him somebody that "only ever failed in the end" except for himself. Hence it being modesty, if you're not a complete tard about it.​


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## StickaStick (May 21, 2015)

@Strat

Instead of responding to my points you basically regurgitated what you're already said and I've already responded to. If you want to address my previous counter-points one by one I'd be glad to continue this dialogue.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Because what I'm saying is very straightforward and you're not getting it:

A. Itachi's plan was instrumental in Obito's (and his master's) defeat.

B. Therefore the plan was not a failure.

C. Therefore him saying he only failed was modesty.

Why would I respond to your tangential points when the above is clear?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> My failed predictably remark was in regards to the Obito part.
> 
> Now tell me how Itachi didn't suspect Madara Uchiha of all people to know how to use Izanagi. I'll wait



Now why do you think Itachi put a crow inside Naruto if he was 100% certain Amaterasu would work on Obito/Uchiha Madara. I'll wait.


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## StickaStick (May 21, 2015)

Strat, surely you see the problem with what you're saying. Itachi's statement came _before _the outcome with who he had believed to be the masked-man had been decided, so we have to look at what happened prior. And in that case, he's aboslutley right in that he "failed" in what he sought out to achieve. This isn't necessarily a mark against Itachi, it's acceptance of what his character (and many characters in the manga canon quite frankly) is about. Deep down I think you know this but are arguing for the sake of discussion. Grimm I'm not so sure.

BTW, you can be incredibly smart and be a failure at the same time. Why you guys refuse to except this is beyond me. It adds layers to his character instead of him simply being another Gary Stu.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Now why do you think Itachi put a crow inside Naruto if he was 100% certain Amaterasu would work on Obito/Uchiha Madara. I'll wait.


Tell me what this has to do with Tensha Fūin predictably failing first.


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## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

I'm not understanding what your point is.

What does Itachi's failure have to do with his intelligence? Madara & Obito also failed, yet they are considered smarter than Itachi? 

And lolHashirama?


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## Veracity (May 21, 2015)

I think Itachi is top tier in foresight. But in tactics and overall knowledge he falls short to ninja like Tobirama and Madara.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Strat, surely you see the problem with what you're saying. Itachi's statement came _before _the outcome



Already saving Naruto and Bee was a _*critical*_ success. So again. Not "only ever failed." And he was mid-process in doubling up and converting Sasuke and Kabuto away from Obito. So not "in the end."​


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## StickaStick (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm not understanding what your point is.
> 
> What does Itachi's failure have to do with his intelligence? Madara & Obito also failed, yet they are considered smarter than Itachi?
> 
> And lolHashirama?



I probably overreacted when I stated that they were smarter then him. I admit that. A more accurate statement would be to say that depending on the particular aspect of intelligence one is focusing on they beat Itachi in certain areas and vise-versa. On a whole they're about on par with each other.

And lolHashirama what?



Strategoob said:


> Before the entirety of the outcome yes, but saving Naruto and Bee was a _*critical*_ success. So again. Not only a failure.​


I have one very simple request here: show me where it was stated or implied to be his *plan *to save Naruto and Bee and not an instance of improvising.


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## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> A more accurate statement would be to say that depending on the particular aspect of intelligence one is focusing on they beat Itachi in certain areas and vise-versa. On a whole they're about on par with each other.



Can you give me some examples? I know what you might say for Madara but I'm curious as to how Obito could be considered smarter.



> And lolHashirama what?



He's the goofball protagonist type like Naruto or Goku. They have their moments, but I wouldn't consider them super smart.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I have one very simple request here: show me where it was stated or implied to be his *plan *to save Naruto and Bee and not an instance of improvising.



And how does improvising a plan (extremely successfully) detract from intelligence? The original would have worked. The improvisation worked out even better.​


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## StickaStick (May 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Can you give me some examples? I know what you might say for Madara but I'm curious as to how Obito could be considered smarter.


How about running a criminal organization behind the scenes or developing a strategy to have the curse seal removed from his heart without him dying as a result against a highly lethal ninja. Or learning the Rikudō no Jutsu at a young age in a short period of time. 

These all compare favorable with anything Itachi has done, and I even feel that is an understatement in some ways.



> He's the goofball protagonist type like Naruto or Goku. They have their moments, but I wouldn't consider them super smart.


Since when does having odd quirks detract from intelligence? 

I suppose developing and cultivating an entire village doesn't require immense intelligence. Or mastering a nature transformation of a level no one had done since or before him.



Strategoob said:


> And how does improvising a plan (extremely successfully) detract from intelligence?​


Except there was no calculated plan. Koto backfired in regards to it's original intention and Itachi, Naruto, and Bee all worked to stop Nagato. And then Itachi and Sasuke (who Itachi did not intend on meeting with) worked to stop Kabuto.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Except there was no calculated plan. Koto backfired in regards to it's original intention.



"Backfired" as in worked out better than its original purpose?​


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## Veracity (May 21, 2015)

Hashirama and Naruto are both extremely tactical. At times Id even go far enough to put them above Itachi or Minato( given the parallelization between the two) by virtue of Naruto tactically outplaying Minato during the war. You can blame it on Minato's personal connection with Obito, but Naruto and tobirama were making Minato look like a child in terms of strategy and perception.


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## StickaStick (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> "Backfired" as in worked out better than its original purpose?​


Yes, thanks to Naruto, Bee, and Sasuke the potential damage was mitigated. 

I'm also dubious of the idea that it led to a better result, as in: 

(1) Koto'ing Sasuke which would have put him on the straight-and-narrow without a hitch; or,

(2) Itachi being koto'd which led to Kabuto's defeat but failed to result in Madara's removal from the battlefield.

In both instances Mads and Obito are still threats but with the way in turned out Naruto had to literally beat sense into Sasuke as opposed to Sasuke being pacified by Koto. It sounds to me like the former was the more ideal outcome (as Itachi originally inteded), but props to Itachi for making the best of an unwanted situation (with the help of others),


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## Rocky (May 21, 2015)

Hashirama & Naruto _may_ be better tacticians than Kakashi & Minato (who are better strategists), but Itachi proved himself a pretty decent tactician against Nagato, and orchestrating his entire fight with Sasuke is a Shikamaru-level strategy feat.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I'm also dubious of the idea that it led to a better result, as in:
> 
> (1) Koto'ing Sasuke which would have put him on the straight-and-narrow without a hitch; or,



On the other hand, Nagato and Itachi would've extracted Kurama and Gyuki and killed Naruto and Bee without much difficulty.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Tell me what this has to do with Tensha Fūin predictably failing first.



It has to do with the fact that Itachi has taken the chance of Tensha fuuin's potential failiure into account


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## StickaStick (May 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It has to do with the fact that Itachi has taken the chance of Tensha fuuin's potential failiure into account


Go back to the original quote. You questioned why I stated that Tensha Fūin predictably failed, which is a separate issue from his back-up plan. 

The fact that Koto sorta-kinda worked in the end doesn't detract from the fact that Itachi essentially handed Sasuke over to Obito in a position to be easily influenced and cultivated with EMS. 



Strategoob said:


> On the other hand, Nagato and Itachi would've extracted Kurama and Gyuki and killed Naruto and Bee without much difficulty.​


I'll grant you that but it was still unintended and it's success was nonetheless contingent on Naruto and Bee pitching in and then latter Sasuke.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> The fact that Koto sorta-kinda worked in the end doesn't detract from the fact that* Itachi essentially handed Sasuke over to Obito in a position to be easily influenced and cultivated with EMS. *


And had already taken the counter measure against such influence, Koto inside Naruto.

So again, Itachi's Tensha Fuuin was just the part of a grander plan, it wasn't the plan itself.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I'll grant you that but it was still unintended and it's success was nonetheless contingent on Naruto and Bee pitching in and then latter Sasuke.



I wouldn't say _unintended_. The goal was always to insure Itachi's end goals: Sasuke's continued life, and Konoha's continued existence (in that order.) And in that sense, it succeeded.

Itachi's not a seer and nobody's claiming that he is. But he planned a _contingency for his contingency_ when he had almost scarce knowledge, and was ultimately successful. It's not too shabby.

But this is _not_ what impresses me most about Itachi's ortrayed intellect. We just got side-tracked over his modesty to Kabuto regarding whether he could truly say he failed or not.
​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Where is it stated or shown that Kabuto was controlling Nagato(Kabuto is smarter than Nagato anyways) ?



You mean apart from him saying first *he'll* store their souls in the Hell Realm and use CT? After he said *he* tried to use shared vision to compensate for movement?

Kabuto didn't know about Nagato's sensing, however. So your intelligence argument fails, especially if you tried to link it to that faulty and distorted Itachi intelligence argument you're using atm.



> Also sensing =/= omnipotence, you can't react to everything you can sense. Kabuto surely didn't lose his sensory abilities when Sasuke's arrow nailed him in the tail, the same arrow he was able to dodge comfortably a minute ago.



You can sense a giant ass mass of chakra if you can sense something. Especially when you've got two jutsu which you can activate pretty much instantly to react to it. 

Kabuto was distracted by Itachi, that's how Sasuke's insanely fast arrows (faster than Totsuka) got Kabuto. 
Of course Kabuto didn't know Nagato could even sense in the first place.



> It might also be the fact that Nagato was caught off guard because he was busy trying to maintain CT.



It isn't hard to maintain CT. Once it was destroyed, the mass of chakra could be sensed and reacted to. That didn't happen because Kabuto didn't know Nagato could sense chakra.

He thought Itachi could sense chakra. Tells you a lot about his knowledge of characters he controls.


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## StickaStick (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I wouldn't say _unintended_. The goal was always to insure Itachi's end goals: Sasuke's continued life, and Konoha's continued existence (in that order.) And in that sense, it succeeded.
> 
> Itachi's not a seer and nobody's claiming that he is. But he planned a _contingency for his contingency_ when he had almost scarce knowledge, and was ultimately successful. It's not too shabby.
> 
> ...


I took the time to find it, but here it is--Itachi explaining why he considered himself a failute:
2

Here's Itachi talking about how if Sasuke became a threat to Konoha he would have considered that an act of betraying Shisui's trust (i.e.; in his mind an act of "failure):
2

And Sasuke _did _turn into a very big threat to Konoha.

Even if one considers the means a moderate success (Koto, etc.), the end (bringing Sasuke back to Konoha) was very much a failure as Itachi saw it on his part because Sasuke at that point when he made the statement to Kabuto had not been swayed back to the leaf and furthermore it took many more chapters and characters, including an ass beating from Naruto, to force Sasuke to concede. If you consider this a "success" on Itachi's part and not an emergency plan that barely came through then I don't know what else to say.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And had already taken the counter measure against such influence, Koto inside Naruto.
> 
> So again, Itachi's Tensha Fuuin was just the part of a grander plan, it wasn't the plan itself.


A counter-measure with no guarantee of success. Given the mystery surrounding the masked-man I would call Itachi's overall strategy here questionable at best. I don't doubt he did what he thought was best, but to rely on Naruto coming into contact with Sasuke before something else disastrous happened was anything but a safe proposition. One has to admire Itachi's effort but the results leave you a bit disappointed.

I mean, suppose Obito had said forget it and decided to sync Sasuke with the GM right away instead of opting to go after Naruto and Bee first? Then what?


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## ZE (May 21, 2015)

It's a close fight. It could go either way. But if you want to know a likely winner, Nagato would be a good pick due to having a superior dojutsu. That's the best way to access strength in any manga. If a character has a power up, weapon or some kind of advantage over another, then it should take the benefit of the doubt.


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## StarWanderer (May 22, 2015)

> No.



Yes.



> Obito was a manipulated individual himself. He was just a puppet. Tricking someone doesn't mean you'r more intelligent than them.
> Obito had more resources and knowledge than 13 year old Itachi, so it iwasn't hard from him to simply lie to Itachi and pretend.



Obito wasnt manipulated during Shippuden. He was simply tricked during 4 Shinobi World War. 



> He doesn't have notable intelligence feats.



He has planty of them during 4th Shinobi World War. ANd only a stupid guy can come up with a plan which almost doomed the world, lol.



> Thats leadership and charisma. Hashirama simply became stronger than everyone else and made things his way.



Not every little boy can come up with such an idea, you know.



> We'd go over the word limit.



LOL, just bring here his feats.



> Smarts and knowledge aren't the same thing.
> 
> The teacher may have more knowledge, but that doesn't mean he/she is smarter.



I know. A teacher can have intellectual abilities superior to those of his pupil, but nevertheless, can be amazed by pupil's abilities.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 22, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> A counter-measure with no guarantee of success.


Given what we know about Koto, it was guaranteed to succeed.



> Given the mystery surrounding the masked-man I would call Itachi's overall strategy here questionable at best. I don't doubt he did what he thought was best, but to rely on Naruto coming into contact with Sasuke before something else disastrous happened was anything but a safe proposition. One has to admire Itachi's effort but the results leave you a bit disappointed.


Naruto is a Konoha shinobi, he'd protect Konoha no matter what. So their face off was inevitable had Sasuke gone after Konoha. 



> I mean, suppose Obito had said forget it and decided to sync Sasuke with the GM right away instead of opting to go after Naruto and Bee first? Then what?


What does it change anything in regards to Koto ?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You mean apart from him saying first *he'll* store their souls in the Hell Realm and use CT? After he said *he* tried to use shared vision to compensate for movement?
> 
> Kabuto didn't know about Nagato's sensing, however. So your intelligence argument fails, especially if you tried to link it to that faulty and distorted Itachi intelligence argument you're using atm.


Kabuto s  the one issuing commands, so yes he is the one doing everything.
He thought Edo were chess pieces and he was the mastermind.

By control, I mean literally controlling every action, like Nagato controlled his paths. 
That never happened with Nagato and Kabuto.
The only time Kabuto came close to doing something like that was when he Spoke through Muu.



> You can sense a giant ass mass of chakra if you can sense something. Especially when you've got two jutsu which you can activate pretty much instantly to react to it.


I guess Totsuka was faster.
Nagato was briefly distracted by CT's destruction too.



> Kabuto was distracted by Itachi, that's how Sasuke's insanely fast arrows (faster than Totsuka) got Kabuto.
> Of course Kabuto didn't know Nagato could even sense in the first place.


I know, thats why I mentioned sensing =/= omnipotence. A sensor can still be distracted or caught off guard.



> It isn't hard to maintain CT. Once it was destroyed, the mass of chakra could be sensed and reacted to. That didn't happen because Kabuto didn't know Nagato could sense chakra.


Actually it was pretty hard for Nagato. We've seen him struggle when he was trying to capture KN6. So I'm pretty sure it required significant concentration and effort on his part.

It was different for Madara and Sasuke, but they were original Rinnegan users and were fuckloads stronger than him.



> He thought Itachi could sense chakra. Tells you a lot about his knowledge of characters he controls.



I agree, but I'm telling you that he didn't control Nagato. He simply killed his personality.


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## pluuuuffff (May 22, 2015)

I don't know why does people think that Itachi can win against Nagato's prime.

He doesn't have Gai feats on Taijutsu and because of that that he can't win against Shinra Tensei.

He doesn't have enough Ninjutsu feats (Katons, Suitons and Amaterasu) if he wants to "surpass" Preta Path or Shinra Tensei.

He has Genjutsu feats, but like he said, there's two ways to fight Tsukuyomi: Being a Uchiha or having the same eye than him. Nagato has Rinnegan, 2 levels ahead of the Mangekyou.

If this is mobile Nagato, his speed feats are the same than Itachi's, and he doesn't need to do seals for the 6 paths technique. (Nagato even without mobility fought Bee, and had fast reactions).

Itachi's more inteligent than Nagato, but Nagato isn't dumb. Nagato analysed every play that Kakashi made with his clones,  and on top of that he has sensor (that he didn't have with the 6 paths).

And Nagato's chakra and stamina feats completely stomps Itachi's.

After reading this, do u still think that Itachi has more chances than nagato of winning this fight?

8/10 for Nagato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 22, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kabuto s  the one issuing commands, so yes he is the one doing everything.
> He thought Edo were chess pieces and he was the mastermind.
> 
> By control, I mean literally controlling every action, like Nagato controlled his paths.
> ...



It happened with Kabuto and Nagato, it happened before he acted through Muu. The only thing Kabuto didn't do with Nagato was speak through him. There was no need to.



> I guess Totsuka was faster.
> Nagato was briefly distracted by CT's destruction too.



Totsuka wasn't faster than activating the next level of Susanoo, both of which could be sensed. If this was Sasuke's arrows, you'd have an argument.

Nagato wasn't distracted by CT's destruction, he stood there. Kabuto didn't have him use the ability (sensing) that Kabuto was unaware he had. In fact, Kabuto had Nagato use shared vision, not sensing, the latter would've been a perfect check to see when Edo Itachi reformed after being turned into dust.



> I know, thats why I mentioned sensing =/= omnipotence. A sensor can still be distracted or caught off guard.



Or a sensor cannot be sensed by not sensing, just like what happened with Nagato. 



> Actually it was pretty hard for Nagato. We've seen him struggle when he was trying to capture KN6. So I'm pretty sure it required significant concentration and effort on his part.
> 
> It was different for Madara and Sasuke, but they were original Rinnegan users and were fuckloads stronger than him.



We saw a distanced God Realm, using an emaciated Nagato struggle with KN6 using a ST. We saw Nagato, crippled and controlled, not struggle at all against what is effectively KN9 and KB8 (Bee). 

Original Rinnegan users are leaps and bounds above Nagato. Nagato, with an authentic Rinnegan, is leaps and bounds above a Nagato with a fake Rinnegan (Edo Tensei). Nagato, with a fake Rinnegan is leaps and bounds above Pain Rikudou; God Realm, for instance.

Now it doesn't help the Itachi argument when the weakest set of Rinnegan (Pain Rikudou) can stomp Itachi. It makes it laughable to think he can take anything beyond Pain. 



> I agree, but I'm telling you that he didn't control Nagato. He simply killed his personality.



Killing his personality and leaving him be, like that Kiri nin, is killing their personality. Killing Nagato's personality and personally choosing which foes he targeted (after turning Itachi into dust) while personally choosing which Paths/jutsu he'd use indicates control. When Kabuto controlled Nagato, he used the same hand seal he used to control Muu. 


Now your argument has boiled down to conflating Pain Rikudou's strength (from a emaciated Nagato) to that of a fake Edo Rinnegan Nagato to that of a real Rinnegan Nagato. While making a reference (and again conflating) Rinnegan Madara and Rinnegan Sasuke's powers (hint: the former is stronger).

Couple that with having to *ignore* Kabuto controlled Nagato... the Itachi side involves far too much context distortion and evidence neglect to be seen as a sound stance.


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## ARGUS (May 22, 2015)

Nagato beats him mid diff, 
Itachi cant counter CT, his ninjutsu including susanoo is rendered useless by preta and he cant anticipate ST 
and considering that nagato this time only has to worry about itachi rather than kcm naruto and bee, then sneak attacks wont be working either when wwe take sensing and shared vision into consideration


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## Icegaze (May 22, 2015)

restrict nagato 
no preta and only 1 or 2 uses of ST and then we might have a fight
also no summoning as well 

otherwise its an ungodly stomp


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## Six (May 22, 2015)

Didn't prime Nagato get his legs blasted by Hanzo and was unable to kill him until he became the six paths of pain? 
Don't get me wrong, he is extremely powerful, but we might be overrating him a bit.


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## StarWanderer (May 22, 2015)

Itachi cant beat Nagato.


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Didn't prime Nagato get his legs blasted by Hanzo and was unable to kill him until he became the six paths of pain?



Made that point at the beginning of the thread, yep. Big jutsu aren't everything.


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## Six (May 22, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Made that point at the beginning of the thread, yep. Big jutsu aren't everything.



People are so enamored by giant explosions, forgetting these ninja are all still human who can be killed by mere kunai if hit in the right spot. Madara was near killed by a sword strike. Its sad that with all the gigantic ninjutsu people think that is the only way to die.

Hanzo was strong enough to fight, damage and escape Nagato with his paper bomb strategy. No matter how you look at it, strategy beats raw power more times than it loses.


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## LostSelf (May 22, 2015)

Using that Nagato is like using part 1 Itachi and not his edo feats.

Nagato shrugged off V2 Bee's Lariat, so the man became very durable or Hanzo's attack was powerful. With the mastery over Rinnegan he has now and the cool headed shinobi he is, his performance against Hanzo is irrelevant.

Also, huge jutsus are almost everything in this manga unless you're fighting Obito. Why do you think the Bijuus are so powerful? Let's talk about CT. A huge jutsu that Itachi cannot counter himself.  Or Hashirama's Budha, etc.


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Using that Nagato is like using part 1 Itachi and not his edo feats.



Use dat insta-incineration of fireproof material Amaterasu feat.


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## LostSelf (May 22, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Use dat insta-incineration of fireproof material Amaterasu feat.



I've always said Itachi's Amaterasu burns quite fast. Sasuke's the one killed by plot.


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## S (May 22, 2015)

Nagato is at least 1 tier above Itachi.


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## UchihaX28 (May 22, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Didn't prime Nagato get his legs blasted by Hanzo and was unable to kill him until he became the six paths of pain?
> Don't get me wrong, he is extremely powerful, but we might be overrating him a bit.



 That same Nagato couldn't kill Hanzo while Pain slaughtered Hanzo and his followers and Pain << Nagato implying that that Nagato was weaker than the Nagato that fought Itachi, Naruto, and Bee.

 Furthermore, Nagato got his legs blasted due to having to protect Konan. Since that was a predictable maneuver, Hanzo used it to his advantage and managed a hit, but Nagato still managed to defend it. I still wouldn't say that it hurts Nagato here as he's less of a speedster and more of a ninjutsu user with high reactions.


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## StickaStick (May 22, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Didn't prime Nagato get his legs blasted by Hanzo and was unable to kill him until he became the six paths of pain?
> Don't get me wrong, he is extremely powerful, but we might be overrating him a bit.


I'm glad you brought this up because it actually shows the desperation in any argument in favor of Itachi beating Nagato.

The problems with what you're citing is that:

The circumstances of the Hanzo situation and Nagato's fight ITT are not similar; e.i.; Itachi is not holding Konan captive as an easy incitement to work Nagato into a trap. Furthermore, it's doubtful Itachi would be working from any kind of high-ground against Nagato like Hanzo did which made the possibility of discerning a trap more difficult then it would have been on even ground. Chances are with his ability to levitate Nagato would be working from a vantage point throughout the contest, assuming it even got that far.

I say it shows desperation because Itachi-pro arguments are forced to resort to taking shaky comparisons and trying to apply them where they don't fit (such as here) in order to make a case.

And no, he's hardly overrated; if any underrated considering it took three high level shinobi working together in order to seal a _mind-controlled_ version of him with a _fake _Rinnegan and some ppl still somehow think that Itachi is in his class. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Given what we know about Koto, it was guaranteed to succeed.


Except it didn't  Itachi ended up Koto'ing himself.



> Naruto is a Konoha shinobi, he'd protect Konoha no matter what. So their face off was inevitable had Sasuke gone after Konoha.


_If_ Sasuke had gone after Konoha. There was no guarantee of that and in fact he never did. Itachi suspected Naruto would come into contact with Sasuke at some point but that was never a given considering all the variables involved. 



> What does it change anything in regards to Koto ?


I'm saying that if Obito had instead opted to go straight to syncing Sasuke and himself with the GM then Koto never would have come into play until possibly too late.


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## Six (May 22, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I'm glad you brought this up because it actually shows the desperation in any argument in favor of Itachi beating Nagato.
> 
> *The problems with what you're citing is that:
> 
> ...


 Don't see any desperation.
I'll admit that terrain can change a match considerably.
Doesn't change the fact that this is a match between ninja, not Z warriors, you're still stuck up on that retarded war arc, read the first 100 chapters or so and you'll see ninja fight with traps and all sorts of strategy. 
Plus it doesn't change the fact that Nagato has pretty crappy reflexes, look how long it took for him to react to the paper bombs Nice
He should have alright pushed it the moment they started climbing up him, instead he didn't realize until it was too late.
Just like how he couldn't react to amaterasu(Though i'll concede that even if he could react he probably would have stayed still so he could be defeated.) Nice
I wonder how much damage he would have suffered had he not been a zombie

Since when do you need to be working from high ground to set raps? Have you forgotten about smokeballs and other ninja tools? Naruto tricked pain using smokeballs, you think Itachi couldn't do the same?

Yeah, I wonder what stopped him from levitating when he got his legs blown up like you said, or why he wasn't using his levitational powers the entire fight against bee, naruto and itachi.

And no, Kabuto took his personality away from Nagato so he wouldn't hold back or give tips to Bee and Naruto. Last time I checked Bee and Naruto were getting trolled and nearly killed had Itachi not intervened, and when CT was destroyed Itachi cleverly made use of the current environment and totsuka blitzed Nagato while Naruto and Bee stood there wondering what was going to happen next.
Itachi's nature to think 11 steps ahead is the reason why they/he sealed Nagato and why Naruto is hokage today.


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## joshhookway (May 23, 2015)

Itachi outsmarts nagato, and totsuka blitz him.


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## StickaStick (May 23, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> and you'll see ninja fight with traps and all sorts of strategy.


The problem is that these instances you're referring to are hardly comparable to a fight of this scale and particularly with a ninja the caliber of Nagato. Itachi might (and often will) be able to turn the tide in many fights with superior strategy and maneuvering, I'll grant you, but this isn't one of them.



> Plus it doesn't change the fact that Nagato has pretty crappy reflexes, look how long it took for him to react to the paper bombs Nice


I wouldn't attribute it to crappy reflexes. Nagato was trying to save Konan and would have done so paper bombs or not. 

A more accurate representation of Nagato's reflexes I would say is when he impressively kept pace with his own ST:
Nice



> He should have alright pushed it the moment they started climbing up him, instead he didn't realize until it was too late.
> Just like how he couldn't react to amaterasu(Though i'll concede that even if he could react he probably would have stayed still so he could be defeated.)


Nagato has just used ST so he was probably on the 5-sec cool-down interval.



> Nice
> I wonder how much damage he would have suffered had he not been a zombie


Preta Path, ST, and sensing all help take care of Ama so he'd be fine.



> Since when do you need to be working from high ground to set raps? Have you forgotten about smokeballs and other ninja tools? Naruto tricked pain using smokeballs, you think Itachi couldn't do the same?


Smoke balls aren't going to do much against a sensor of Nagato's level. The only reason the dusk cloud worked is because Kabuto didn't know Nagato was such a proficient sensor.



> Yeah, I wonder what stopped him from levitating when he got his legs blown up like you said, or why he wasn't using his levitational powers the entire fight against bee, naruto and itachi.


IDK, we'd have to ask Kabuto about that. 



> And no, Kabuto took his personality away from Nagato so he wouldn't hold back or give tips to Bee and Naruto.


No, Kabuto was clearly in control. Seriously, all one has to do is ask themselves why would Kabuto risk Nagato actually killing Naruto and Bee when he wanted their bijuu.



> Last time I checked Bee and Naruto were getting trolled and nearly killed had Itachi not intervened, and when CT was destroyed Itachi cleverly made use of the current environment and totsuka blitzed Nagato while Naruto and Bee stood there wondering what was going to happen next.
> Itachi's nature to think 11 steps ahead is the reason why they/he sealed Nagato and why Naruto is hokage today.


Naruto and Bee provided a convenient distraction and helped Itachi care of CT--it was a team effort. Totsuka-blitz through the dust doesn't work if Kabuto knows Nagato is a high-level sensor.


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Itachi cant counter Nagato's CT, he wont be able to get out of there.
Itachi cant counter Nagato's most powerfull ST (Yata Mirror has no feats on that level and Itachi's Susanoo got destroyed by Kirin).
Itachi cant do anything to Nagato. The only option is Totsuka blade, which is negated by Nagato's ST and CT.
And Nagato is definetely fast enough to fight with Itachi and use his ninjutsu just in time. 

Nagato babyshakes. He is on a completely different level.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Itachi cant counter Nagato's CT, he wont be able to get out of there.
> Itachi cant counter Nagato's most powerfull ST (Yata Mirror has no feats on that level and Itachi's Susanoo got destroyed by Kirin).
> Itachi cant do anything to Nagato. The only option is Totsuka blade, which is negated by Nagato's ST and CT.
> And Nagato is definetely fast enough to fight with Itachi and use his ninjutsu just in time.
> ...



Those powers made living Nagato cough up blood and become temporarily helpless. Many Konoha ninja without Susano'o and the Yata Mirror survived CST, so Itachi likely can.

The debate centralizes around CT, and there's another thread devoted to that. Even if Itachi can't counter it, the similar argument can be made that Nagato lacks the reflexes to counter the Totsuka.​


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> Those powers made living Nagato cough up blood and become temporarily helpless. Many Konoha ninja without Susano'o and the Yata Mirror survived CST, so Itachi likely can.



Yes, after he spent lots of chakra to destroy Konoha. 

And Itachi cant escape CT. Even if his Susanoo wont be destroyed, he will suffocate there for sure.



> The debate centralizes around CT, and there's another thread devoted to that. Even if Itachi can't counter it, the similar argument can be made that Nagato lacks the reflexes to counter the Totsuka.



Nagato has good enough reflexes to dodge Totsuka. But anyway, Itachi wont even come close to use Totsuka on Nagato due to Nagato's ST. He wasnt caughing blood after STing SM Naruto's Bijuu Sized frogs, breaking their bones.

Nagato either CT's him, or ST's him, or exhaustes him. Itachi is not in Nagato's tier.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> And Itachi cant escape CT. Even if his Susanoo wont be destroyed, he will suffocate there for sure.



Putting aside the Izanagi or destroying the core arguments, why couldn't Itachi cut himself out with the Totsuka? KN8 broke out with its blunt face, so why wouldn't the Totsuka pierce to the outside?​


StarWanderer said:


> Nagato has good enough reflexes to dodge Totsuka.



I don't think so. He was unable to avoid or deflect the blade despite looking at the dust cloud it came out of and having a very solid amount of distance between him and the dust cloud.​


StarWanderer said:


> But anyway, Itachi wont even come close to use Totsuka on Nagato due to Nagato's ST. He wasnt caughing blood after STing SM Naruto's Bijuu Sized frogs, breaking their bones.



On the other hand, KN6 tanked it and stood its ground without an issue. So I think Susano'o and the Yata Mirror would be just fine. And if tanked, guess who can't use ST again for several seconds? Which means he'd might get Totsuka pierced right then and there.​


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> Putting aside the Izanagi or destroying the core arguments, why couldn't Itachi cut himself out with the Totsuka? KN8 broke out with its blunt face, so why wouldn't the Totsuka pierce to the outside?



Totsuka doesnt have the destruction power KN8 has. He'll need tons of time to get out of it and during that time, he can suffocate. Also, i highly doubt he will be able to move at all under the effects of numerous rocks and Core's gravity. 

Izanagi is a good option, but what if core's gravity is still active after Itachi used Izanagi? Its very debatable if his Susanoo wont be destroyed by numerous rocks much larger then his Susanoo, which was destroyed by Kirin.

Anyway, even after that big CT, Nagato could control his Path's bodies. He will ST Itachi after he uses Izanagi.

And Nagato was caughing of blood partly because he used lots of chakra before CT.



> I don't think so. He was unable to avoid or deflect the blade despite looking at the dust cloud it came out of and having a very solid amount of distance between him and the dust cloud.



He was under Kabuto's control. 

Anyway, Itachi needs to come close to Nagato in order to use Totsuka, which he wont be able to do thanks to ST and CT.



> On the other hand, KN6 tanked it and stood its ground without an issue. So I think Susano'o and the Yata Mirror would be just fine. And if tanked, guess who can't use ST again for several seconds? Which means he'd might get Totsuka pierced right then and there.



It wasnt fine after Sasuke's Kirin. And even if Itachi's Susanoo can tank it, it will be in a long distance from Nagato. Nagato can push his Susanoo away all the time and exhauste Itachi. Did KN6 Naruto tank it and stood in his place after such a ST? I dont remember such a thing.


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## Umbrella (May 23, 2015)

Edo Itachi might have a chance here under favorable circumstances, but a living one is fucked. This 'prime' Nagato should be be able to pressure Itachi into using Susano'o rather casually and may even be able to go toe to toe with it if not just avoid it before Itachi inevitably succumbs to the strain of it's usage.


Or he could just two panel Itachi with Chibaku Tensei. Either or.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

kn6 tanked ST from deva 
I don't see why once itachi has knowledge on ST he cant anchor himself to tank ST
its basically a tough fight till itachi runs out of steam 

nagato just has too much stamina. worse he can absorb itachi jutsu while standing still

itachi is no doubt smarter however nagato is simply a hard counter to all his abilities 

susanoo is what will keep itachi alive for a while. while izanagi gives him 1 more shot at it. though izanagi would be pointless. nagato will sense him once he reappears and kill him again


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## LostSelf (May 23, 2015)

If Kyuubi can, Susano'o can.

If SSJ4 Gogeta fused with Omega Shenron can, Susano'o can. 

I've always loved that type of logic .


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

kn6 isn't kyuubi or remotely close 
also V3 susanoo already anchored itself when sucked in by baku. so lets not make it sound like its impossible to anchor oneself with susanoo

note kakashi and gai were stated to have counters to nagato jutsu. the only counter to ST stated on panel is simply latching on with chakra. here itachi got a giant megazord chakra structure to do that for him

I don't see how its ridiculous 

ill neg ur post, didn't get the pointless jab there


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## LostSelf (May 23, 2015)

Shinra Tensei is more powerful than Baku, unless you think that Baku can pull 3 giant boss summons at insane speeds.

Four tails Kyuubi Naruto could create a huge shockwave with an arm-swing. KN6 is vastly more powerful. Susano'o, save the legged versions of EMS, hasn't shown that kind of sheer strenght.

Itachi cannot even sense or see ST, so unless he stays the entire fight anchored or Nagato makes the hand-stance, he won't anchor in time.

The same again, it seems? The only proven counter ST had was the cooldown. That's the strategy they made towards that jutsu. Chakra to the feet is puny and not even proven as a viable method, as you're still damaged by the initial blast.

Wich makes you know why Katsuyu never told Naruto to hold himself with chakra to the feet and the only way Naruto was told to do was take advantage of the cooldown.

Neg whatever you want, there was no jab at all. You should take an anime forum less seriously. .


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> kn6 isn't kyuubi or remotely close
> also V3 susanoo already anchored itself when sucked in by baku. so lets not make it sound like its impossible to anchor oneself with susanoo
> 
> note kakashi and gai were stated to have counters to nagato jutsu. the only counter to ST stated on panel is simply latching on with chakra. here itachi got a giant megazord chakra structure to do that for him
> ...



Am i the only one who think negging someone is the worst thing to do in the Battledome? You cant argue with words, so you'll neg your opponent? *Pathetic*.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Totsuka doesnt have the destruction power KN8 has.



The Totsuka has more piercing power than KN8's face though, as the KN8 did not use a beast bomb. It just shoved its face through rock. The Totsuka can pierce through rock better, don't you agree?​


StarWanderer said:


> Anyway, Itachi needs to come close to Nagato in order to use Totsuka, which he wont be able to do thanks to ST and CT.



The Yata Mirror can block ST. Clones also make getting close possible. If Itachi clone feinted a perfect Sage twice, then he can clone feint a normal sensor. We're debating CT elsewhere.​


StarWanderer said:


> Did KN6 Naruto tank it and stood in his place after such a ST? I dont remember such a thing.



KN6 easily repelled ST back at Deva. The legendary Yata Mirror has the  to do likewise, backed by black Zetsu of all people, who knew about Shinra Tensei and much much more.​


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## LostSelf (May 23, 2015)

I don't think it has to do with piercing. A kunai has more piercing power than Susano'o. But it would fail trying to breach Gaara and Onoki's defenses. And Madara ran through it.


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

> The Totsuka has more piercing power than KN8's face though, as the KN8 did not use a beast bomb. It just shoved its face through rock. The Totsuka can pierce through rock better, don't you agree?



Lets compare 9 Tails punch and Sword of Kusanagi. Sword of Kusanagi has more piercing power, but 9 Tails punch can crush a house, or tons of rocks. 

Sword of Kusanagi lacks destruction power to easily get out of so many rocks. Plus, there is a gravity power. Its highly debatable if his Susanoo will be able to move at all under gravity effects and rocks. Its also debatable if his Susanoo will be crushed, or not.



> The Yata Mirror can block ST. Clones also make getting close possible. If Itachi clone feinted a perfect Sage twice, then he can clone feint a normal sensor. We're debating CT elsewhere.



Some of his most powerfull ST? Yata Mirror, which was destroyed by Kirin? No. It lacks feats. And anyway, there is no proof he wont fly away because of the ST's pushing force. 

ST around himself will send anyone around flying away, including clones.



> KN6 easily repelled ST back at Deva. The legendary Yata Mirror has the hype to do likewise, backed by black Zetsu of all people, who knew about Shinra Tensei and much much more.



Yet it didnt repel Kirin.

And even Black Zetsu said "they say" and "legendary items". He just knew a legend about those items.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

I don't consider the Totsuka and Kusanagi at all comparable. Restrict Orochimaru to only his Kusanagi against Itachi's Totsuka and see what happens. Not comparable.

We don't know if the Yata Mirror was used on Kirin, but Zetsu's comment led us to believe that it was not, and even if it were, Kirin shattered a mountain kilometers high. It's far beyond ST.​


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Shinra Tensei is more powerful than Baku, unless you think that Baku can pull 3 giant boss summons at insane speeds.
> 
> Four tails Kyuubi Naruto could create a huge shockwave with an arm-swing. KN6 is vastly more powerful. Susano'o, save the legged versions of EMS, hasn't shown that kind of sheer strenght.
> 
> ...



if it sound like a jab its a jab. 

why does baku need to pull them at insane speeds? what does that have to do with boss summons running into a gravity push that repels them?

yes 4 tails Naruto could create shockwaves this is good. bunta could do the same with 1 jump. 
doesn't make bunta more powerful than those who can do the same with a jump now does it

note V4 susanoo 1 panelled a jutsu said to be stronger than boss summons. 

itachi cant see ST never said he could however when hit by it, while flying back, nothing stops a susanoo limb from reaching for the ground and holding itself in place. 

also after ST nagato cant use another 1. nothing stops itachi from throwing a YM his way and 
hide a fuma shiruken in its shadow, preta takes YM out and the fuma shiruken bisects nagato

possible chakra on feet method isn't viable if you want to believe that. itachi doesn't need it, he got an automatic shield which he would and should have up the second he sees rinnegan. no reason to assume he would start with basic abilities


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I don't consider the Totsuka and Kusanagi at all comparable. Restrict Orochimaru to only his Kusanagi against Itachi's Totsuka and see what happens. Not comparable.
> 
> We don't know if the Yata Mirror was used on Kirin, but Zetsu's comment led us to believe that it was not, and even if it were, Kirin shattered a mountain kilometers high. It's far beyond ST.​



Totsuka Blade can pierce a huge mass of rocks, but KN8 could easily destroy larger rock masses, although it doesnt have piercing power as good as that of Totsuka.

Itachi could die right there. He most likely used it. 

ST can shatter the whole village and create huge crater.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

common

ST has done far more damage than kirin

btw yata mirror wasn't used. kirin wasn't nullified therefore it wasn't used. that's more kirin dehype if anything 

unlike against any sannin where itachi has quicker access to hax jutsu which is why he wins. here nagato access to his jutsu are just as quick. 

*however note. if deva powers are restricted then itachi could win this *


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## LostSelf (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> if it sound like a jab its a jab.



It's not a jab. But i sicerely apologize if you felt offended.


> why does baku need to pull them at insane speeds? what does that have to do with boss summons running into a gravity push that repels them?



Because anchoring against Baku's sucking force is not the same as anchoring with Shinra Tensei's incredibly strong push.



> yes 4 tails Naruto could create shockwaves this is good. bunta could do the same with 1 jump.
> doesn't make bunta more powerful than those who can do the same with a jump now does it



When did Bunta created it by jumping? And an arm swing as powerful as the one a "small being" such as KN4 created are two different things. Hasn't shown that strenght.



> note V4 susanoo 1 panelled a jutsu said to be stronger than boss summons.



Boss summon that Nagato can send flying as well with ST like a bug without even resorting to his trump card.



> itachi cant see ST never said he could however when hit by it, while flying back, nothing stops a susanoo limb from reaching for the ground and holding itself in place.



If he can. But let's assume he can. He is still damaged by the initial blast. Not very good either yet. Then again, that's assuming the ST isn't strong enough to knock him out cold or killing him instantly.



> also after ST nagato cant use another 1. nothing stops itachi from throwing a YM his way and
> hide a fuma shiruken in its shadow, preta takes YM out and the fuma shiruken bisects nagato



He blocks it with Asura Path, or grabs the shuriken exactly how Zabuza grabbed it. Itachi's not fighting a genin. And Itachi going face to face with Nagato is overkill. He would end grabbed and killed.



> possible chakra on feet method isn't viable if you want to believe that. itachi doesn't need it, he got an automatic shield which he would and should have up the second he sees rinnegan. no reason to assume he would start with basic abilities



Chakra to the feets it's not viable. Tsunade used it because it's all she had at the moment. If that was the perfect counter to it, then Naruto would've been told of that one.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> It's not a jab. But i sicerely apologize if you felt offended.



 I don't need the apology. 


> Because anchoring against Baku's sucking force is not the same as anchoring with Shinra Tensei's incredibly strong push.



to make it incredibly strong he would need to know he needs to. not like the one KN6 pushed back was deva strongest ever. but deva or nagato didn't expect it to anchor itself. so why imply nagato uses the strongest ST ever when his ST ranges from things kakashi can tank, or KCM Naruto can be completely unaffected by to destroying a village



> When did Bunta created it by jumping? And an arm swing as powerful as the one a "small being" such as KN4 created are two different things. Hasn't shown that strenght.



against gaara in part 1. go read it. nice couple of chapters. you using shockwave to defend its power. bunta is less powerful than susanoo and can do so with a jump. so the arm swing thing is nice and all but that doesn't suddenly make kn4 more powerful. KCM Naruto cant create any shockwave with an arm swing yet he is well above kn4. 


notice susanoo level 4 with just swinging its sword is causing mountains and caves to tremble 

arm canon


> Boss summon that Nagato can send flying as well with ST like a bug without even resorting to his trump card.



true. he can send it flying. and damage. it sending susanoo flying doesn't damage itachi. you know the same susanoo that stood next to the combined blast of BD+YM+FRS



> If he can. But let's assume he can. He is still damaged by the initial blast. Not very good either yet. Then again, that's assuming the ST isn't strong enough to knock him out cold or killing him instantly.



ST<<BD+ FRS+YM so no he wont be damaged so long as susanoo is up.  arm canon

completely undamaged susanoo from that. so I doubt nagato with 1 St gets through 4 layers of susanoo+the mirror and still damage itachi. 
AOE doesn't always mean power so levelling a village doesn't mean ST can shatter susanoo. 

This is why on  a separate note I have always been an advocate of sandaime raikage can tank nagato ST. seeing that FRS would be a far more lethal attack based on what they do 



> He blocks it with Asura Path, or grabs the shuriken exactly how Zabuza grabbed it. Itachi's not fighting a genin. And Itachi going face to face with Nagato is overkill. He would end grabbed and killed.



and if the shiruken is rigged? u know something that it can very well be. itachi is excellent at coming up with 3 prong attacks. 



> Chakra to the feets it's not viable. Tsunade used it because it's all she had at the moment. If that was the perfect counter to it, then Naruto would've been told of that one.



I agree.


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## LostSelf (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I don't need the apology.



What's done it's done.



> to make it incredibly strong he would need to know he needs to. not like the one KN6 pushed back was deva strongest ever. but deva or nagato didn't expect it to anchor itself. so why imply nagato uses the strongest ST ever when his ST ranges from things kakashi can tank, or KCM Naruto can be completely unaffected by to destroying a village



Sure it is. The better wording would be "If Nagato wants". Doesn't mean he can't. He took down Kakashi the very moment he felt he was a threat. You can bet he will know Itachi is one very fast.



> against gaara in part 1. go read it. nice couple of chapters. you using shockwave to defend its power. bunta is less powerful than susanoo and can do so with a jump. so the arm swing thing is nice and all but that doesn't suddenly make kn4 more powerful. KCM Naruto cant create any shockwave with an arm swing yet he is well above kn4.



I read it. No shockwave. It is no surprise that he creates some either way, he is incredibly big, and that size would create some. But even then, i see no shockwave.

You are also diminishing it. A huge being can do so because of it's size. KN4 is human sized and was able to create such. Kishi bothered to highlight said feat for something. How do we know KCM Naruto is above KN4 in strenght? 



> notice susanoo level 4 with just swinging its sword is causing mountains and caves to tremble
> 
> 
> here



It wasn't  just swinging it's sword. The entity was destroying the cave, wich caused the thing to crumble. Even then, i am not denying Susano'o is strong. It sure is.

Now, Sasuke's Susano'o couldn't even move with Baku's suction. As Danzo indicates. Wich means Susano'o was having a bad time anchoring itself with it. Baku is no where near the potency Shinra Tensei can create, depending on the power. Therefore Susano'o can be overpowered by it.

Then again, that's assuming it can anchor itself. Shinra Tensei, unlike Baku's suction, is incredibly fast and it's a one shot technique.


> true. he can send it flying. and damage. it sending susanoo flying doesn't damage itachi. you know the same susanoo that stood next to the combined blast of BD+YM+FRS



Yes, it can damage Itachi, if he is hit without it. To avoid Shinra Tensei he will need to have Susano'o up all times, as he cannot predict it. And that'll only take Itachi to the grave,



> ST<<BD+ FRS+YM so no he wont be damaged so long as susanoo is up.  here



Huh? Unless you're trying to say that Susano'o survived that (Something it didn't happen as the explosion didn't even hit Susano'o, nor the blasts), then it's irrelevant.



> completely undamaged susanoo from that. so I doubt nagato with 1 St gets through 4 layers of susanoo+the mirror and still damage itachi.
> AOE doesn't always mean power so levelling a village doesn't mean ST can shatter susanoo.



Completely undamaged because Susano'o didn't receive the explosion. Going by that logic, we can say that Nagato tanked it too 



> This is why on  a separate note I have always been an advocate of sandaime raikage can tank nagato ST. seeing that FRS would be a far more lethal attack based on what they do



Sandaime can. Even though Shinra Tensei would dispell his cloack. Nobody is saying Itachi is going to be damaged inside Susano'o. Outside, even if he activates it while flying, it's going to damage him. Shinra Tensei doesn't only damage you by making you crash.


> and if the shiruken is rigged? u know something that it can very well be. itachi is excellent at coming up with 3 prong attacks.



And Nagato is a sensor. The Shuriken has something to be grabbed in the center, like Zabuza did. If it's not, Asura's arms or blade takes it down. And why are you assuming a simple shuriken would force Nagato to use Shinra Tensei?  He has a lot of other options to block/deflect it. Such as the huge AoE explosions that Asura can create.

YM and any other ninjutsu is meaningless in front of Preta Path.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> *however note. if deva powers are restricted then itachi could win this *



Preta Path still forces Itachi to use Taijutsu; Itachi's Taijutsu isn't good enough to overcome the Asura Path.

You'll have to restrict at least 3 Paths (Preta, Asura and Deva) to let Itachi stand a chance of winning... of course having to restrict key powers of Nagato in the first place so Itachi has a shot of winning only shows you how far beneath Nagato, Itachi really is.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> What's done it's done.



 the north remembers. 



> Sure it is. The better wording would be "If Nagato wants". Doesn't mean he can't. He took down Kakashi the very moment he felt he was a threat. You can bet he will know Itachi is one very fast.



took 4 tries to down kakashi though. just saying  



> I read it. No shockwave. It is no surprise that he creates some either way, he is incredibly big, and that size would create some. But even then, i see no shockwave


.

read again shockwave



> You are also diminishing it. A huge being can do so because of it's size. KN4 is human sized and was able to create such. Kishi bothered to highlight said feat for something. How do we know KCM Naruto is above KN4 in strenght?



I never said in strength I mean overall. or does KCM need to be superior in strength? or does susanoo? 



> It wasn't  just swinging it's sword. The entity was destroying the cave, wich caused the thing to crumble. Even then, i am not denying Susano'o is strong. It sure is.




ok good. 



> Now, Sasuke's Susano'o couldn't even move with Baku's suction. As Danzo indicates. Wich means Susano'o was having a bad time anchoring itself with it. Baku is no where near the potency Shinra Tensei can create, depending on the power. Therefore Susano'o can be overpowered by it.



sasuke susanoo couldn't move. true sasuke however could. which is the point of anchoring himself to perform an attack. 


> Then again, that's assuming it can anchor itself. Shinra Tensei, unlike Baku's suction, is incredibly fast and it's a one shot technique.



ST has never been implied or stated to be fast. its invisible not fast. I don't get why people get confused by that. 



> Yes, it can damage Itachi, if he is hit without it. To avoid Shinra Tensei he will need to have Susano'o up all times, as he cannot predict it. And that'll only take Itachi to the grave,



why would he be hit without it. I already said itachi dies due to stamina. if he could keep susanoo up forever he would win.


> Huh? Unless you're trying to say that Susano'o survived that (Something it didn't happen as the explosion didn't even hit Susano'o, nor the blasts), then it's irrelevant.[/COLOR


]

so they were that close to the blast but were unaffected by it. oh yh I get you. 
so all u need to be is a few meters away from a blast to not need to defend from it. suuuuuuuure 




> Completely undamaged because Susano'o didn't receive the explosion. Going by that logic, we can say that Nagato tanked it too




nagato was no where near it. 
itachi and the others were being pulled towards it before it exploded and were in the vicinity of the explosion. don't troll 

[





> COLOR="Green"]
> Sandaime can. Even though Shinra Tensei would dispell his cloack. Nobody is saying Itachi is going to be damaged inside Susano'o. Outside, even if he activates it while flying, it's going to damage him. Shinra Tensei doesn't only damage you by making you crash.




St don't got the feats to suggest it can dispel susanoo



> And Nagato is a sensor. The Shuriken has something to be grabbed in the center, like Zabuza did. If it's not, Asura's arms or blade takes it down. And why are you assuming a simple shuriken would force Nagato to use Shinra Tensei?  He has a lot of other options to block/deflect it. Such as the huge AoE explosions that Asura can create.



being a sensor doesn't help u figure out a shiruken is rigged. I never said forced I was just suggesting itachi attack options here. 



> YM and any other ninjutsu is meaningless in front of Preta Path.



true but could be a good distraction


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 23, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Preta Path still forces Itachi to use Taijutsu; Itachi's Taijutsu isn't good enough to overcome the Asura Path.
> 
> You'll have to restrict at least 3 Paths (Preta, Asura and Deva) to let Itachi stand a chance of winning... of course having to restrict key powers of Nagato in the first place so Itachi has a shot of winning only shows you how far beneath Nagato, Itachi really is.



This. Itachi can only win this with extremely favorable conditions. Nagato is on a higher step mainly due to his better eye powers but also his stamina pool, physical stats and other things.


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## pluuuuffff (May 24, 2015)

Hey guys, I've remembered something.

What about Izanami? We all know that Nagato died and was reanimated as "immune" to Izanami. However, when he was the Akatsuki leader (on his prime "alive"), he had some problems with his personality. We saw that when Naruto convinced him, since he said: "I stopped believing in myself".

And, from what  I know Rinnegan being immune to visual genjutsu was "fake"... In that case, Itachi has a lot of chances to suceed here, even knowing the "gap" between them.

Depends on what "Prime Nagato" we're talking about.


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## UchihaX28 (May 24, 2015)

Izanami requires prep, something Itachi will not have here.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2015)

Nagato lacked the inner pain/denial that Kabuto had. Izanami will not be that useful, and Itachi shouldn't cost himself a MS jutsu to try a useless jutsu. 

Izanami seemed to be designed for denialists such as Izanagi users and people like Kabuto who had totally lost their sense of self.


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## pluuuuffff (May 24, 2015)

Indeed it's true.

It's hard to use, but i still count that as a chance. Nagato still wins more times than not tho


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

Before he died, Nagato had the delusion that he was God. Perfect Izanami victim right there.

Although pulling it off against him would be pretty hard, given his diverse moveset.


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

itachi cannot even slightly pull off izanami against nagato
izanagi however yh sure but that wont help him slightly 

nagato>>itachi and everyone on that level. nagato is on a level of his own just below hashirama and madara


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## Amol (May 24, 2015)

Nagato is simply better fighter than Itachi. He has counter for everything that Itachi has.
Rinnegan is better than Sharingan.
It won't be a close fight .


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Before he died, Nagato had the delusion that he was God. Perfect Izanami victim right there.
> 
> Although pulling it off against him would be pretty hard, given his diverse moveset.



He just had the reputation that he was a God. He used the puppet Pain jutsu to maintain that illusion. 

Indeed, pulling out Izanami against the guy who literally one-shotted Itachi into Edo Tensei dust before focusing on two Jinchuriki will be hard. Especially now that they're living and Nagato isn't emaciated/chakra deprived.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He just had the reputation that he was a God. He used the puppet Pain jutsu to maintain that illusion.


He kept repeating that nonsense to Jiraiya & Tsunade too, it wasn't an act. He was pretty delusional.



> Indeed, pulling out Izanami against the guy who literally one-shotted Itachi into Edo Tensei dust before focusing on two Jinchuriki will be hard. Especially now that they're living and Nagato isn't emaciated/chakra deprived.



You mean the ST ambush on Itachi & co while they were talking ? But we didn't even see Itachi get hit.

Although Itach tore Nagato apart 3 seperate times in that fight


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## UchihaX28 (May 24, 2015)

I don't recall Itachi being obliterated by Nagato's ST.


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## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I don't recall Itachi being obliterated by Nagato's ST.



That's because it didn't happen.

Munboy assumes it happened though.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

I don't see why it would have happened. 
perhaps the assumption is because itachi was off panelled for abit after that 

we will never know. in any case so long as susanoo is up 

ST isn't going to be killing or harming itachi. sadly itachi don't got the stamina to keep it up

and nagato can take susanoo from him 

the more I think about the akatsuki the more I believe nagato and itachi are actually stronger than obito.


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## Baroxio (Jan 21, 2016)

Itachi without knowledge likely looses to Chibaku Tensei. With knowledge, however, he can just Amaterasu the core before it gathers enough earth to shield itself. Another possibility is using Totsika to seal the core the way he sealed Orochimaru's Hydra. Theoretically that could work, and may work even regardless of knowledge, but that's dependent on the range of Totsuka compared to the size of Chibaku Tensei at the time. Totsuka may have decent range on it, but as we've seen from the KN6 vs Deva fight, Chibaku Tensei can get extraordinarily large.

The rest of the matchup plays pretty similarly in that Itachi with knowledge has a far better chance of claiming victory over Nagato than an Itachi without knowledge. Even without knowledge though, it's not impossible for Itachi to win since he has the best bunshin feints in the manga combined with the strongest intellect, but then it becomes a question of how much knowledge Itachi can gain before running out of the minimum chakra needed to seal the deal.


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## Garcher (Jan 21, 2016)

stop necro Itachi still wins, this is not debatable


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 21, 2016)

Nagato is on a whole other level than itachi. Itachi and Minato have their own level below nagato. The only two above nagato are Hashirama and madara


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 21, 2016)

This has been done so many times and Nagato was always the winner, hell one of the longest threads on here is EMS Madara vs Prime Nagato and Itachi is no where near Madara's level.

Itachi may be one of the best ninja in the entire series but you can't deny Nagato has a counter for everything Itachi can dish out not to mention Itachi's strongest feats like Genjustu don't even work on Rinnegan users.

Nagato also has many ways of just depleting Itachi's stamina or nuking him off to the planet. Again Nagato could hold his own vs Madara at least for a little while because that was the general consensus in that thread.

Im sorry to say but unless Nagato is careless Itachi has no chance I know many of you will argue that is not the case but from a logical perspective it is indeed.

And just for the icing on the cake if Nagato thought Itachi was such a great threat he could just use CT or spam Asura nukes or hell just soul rip him. Itachi is not on Nagato's level end of story.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 21, 2016)

StickaStick said:


> Since this still seems to be in contention I'm curious.
> 
> Seeing as both a "Prime Nagato" and "Healthy Itachi" are misnomers are far as the manga canon is concerned, some imagination will have to come into play based on reasonable expectations.




It shouldn't be in contention because the winner is clear. His name is Nagato. 

Prime Nagato is not a misnomer. We don't need imagination. We know what he can do. Itachi is the only one who we have to 'imagine' feats for and wank, which speaks for itself that Nagato wins. Totsuka is dodged or repelled  by ST. Everything else is blocked, dodged or absorbed. Genjutsu ain't a problem against a Rinnegan user. CST topples Itachi over. Yata won't help because the shock from the crater that is created will rumble Itachi like an earthquake. Let's not even go in the CT direction. Hell, Nagato could even use BT from the get go and win this. Healthy Itachi really has no feats. Prime Nagato sort of does.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 21, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> It shouldn't be in contention because the winner is clear. His name is Nagato.
> 
> Prime Nagato is not a misnomer. We don't need imagination. We know what he can do. Itachi is the only one who we have to 'imagine' feats for and wank, which speaks for itself that Nagato wins. Totsuka is dodged or repelled  by ST. Everything else is blocked, dodged or absorbed. Genjutsu ain't a problem against a Rinnegan user. CST topples Itachi over. Yata won't help because the shock from the crater that is created will rumble Itachi like an earthquake. Let's not even go in the CT direction. Hell, Nagato could even use BT from the get go and win this. Healthy Itachi really has no feats. Prime Nagato sort of does.



Your wasting your time the Itachi Wankers like to ride him and never seem to get off. Notice how they always try to put him against super strong opponents like vs all 3 sanin at once and against madara, and I have even seen a thread of Itachi vs the gokage but in reality Jiraiya more times then not could kill Itachi...


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## ARGUS (Jan 21, 2016)

2016 and this still goes on, smh, 
nagato mid diffs 

preta and deva completely shut itachi out here


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 22, 2016)

CST > Itachi
CT > Itachi
Rinnegan > Sharingan


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## DavyChan (Jan 22, 2016)

Nagato wins without a doubt

Prime Nagato>Pain>Prime  Itachi


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## Sadgoob (Jan 22, 2016)

In the manga, "Prime Nagato" was crippled by Hanzo, whereas "healthy Itachi" effortlessly destroyed Orochimaru and Deidara and kept Obito from moving on Konoha. 

People can rightfully give Nagato the nod in overall movepool, but it's silly to overlook the fact that Itachi's much better at using his own great movepool more effectively...​


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## Rocky (Jan 22, 2016)

I don't even remember that post. Surprisingly, I actually still think the match goes like that. Usually I change my mind like every week.


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## LostSelf (Jan 22, 2016)

Itachi destroyed two shinobis who would be manhandled by Nagato (wich i wouldn't consider Prime, considering didn't have that much experience).

Hardly a good comparison .


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## Sadgoob (Jan 22, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Itachi destroyed two shinobis who would be manhandled by Nagato (wich i wouldn't consider Prime, considering didn't have that much experience).
> 
> Hardly a good comparison .



On the other hand, (IMO) Itachi wouldn't have lost his legs to Hanzo.


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## Rocky (Jan 22, 2016)

Hanzō would have lost his own legs against Itachi.


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## LostSelf (Jan 22, 2016)

Itachi in Nagato's position would've gotten his legs blasted off instead of keeping himself on foot after sacrificing himself to save Konan.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 22, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Itachi in Nagato's position would've gotten his legs blasted off instead of keeping himself on foot after sacrificing himself to save Konan.



Nope, because Hanzo would've been caught in Itachi's genjutsu.


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## LostSelf (Jan 23, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Nope, because Hanzo would've been caught in Itachi's genjutsu.



That depends. I'm very sure Itachi, this Itachi, would beat Hanzo. BI said that because SadGoob used a Nagato that was a young, mindless and rampaging kid who saw his legs blown off and didn't care a bit, he was decided to kill Hanzo even if he died, and that was what he did.

It's not a fair comparison because that Nagato is far from his prime. He was inexperienced with the Rinnegan, inpexperienced with battles (or he'd just pull Konan to his side and blast everyone with Shinra Tensei, leaving Yahiko alive and Hanzo running for his life. Add Danzo there and Danzo as well is fucked up together.

Like, i say Itachi's superior to Hashirama because Hashirama at X age was a bit stronger as someone with a base sharingan and Itachi had MS at the time. You can't make someone superior like that.

Itachi had to master MS, some eyes that were easily used by Sasuke by the first time. And was willing to kill. Nagato as a kid had to handle some eyes that were too powerful for Obito with Hashirama's cells to use at the same time, and he had no desire of fighting, he basically felt great being Yahiko's right arm.

At the end of the day, Nagato ended up superior. Itachi beat Deidara and Oro. Nagato destroyed a village, killed Jiraiya (Oro's equal), Killed Kakashi (Deidara's superior), Two-panneled SM Naruto (strongest in Konoha) and had KCM Naruto and Bee in checkmate.

I bet you Prime Itachi wouldn't do that.

But sure, Itachi was more level-headed than Nagato and he always took things with much more calm, wich was a plus in their growth. Considering Nagato fucked himself up. But that's still far from Prime Nagato.


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## Itachі (Jan 23, 2016)

Why is this thread even open? 



LostSelf said:


> Nagato as a kid had to handle some eyes that were too powerful for Obito with Hashirama's cells to use at the same time



That was completely retarded. I get that he's an Uzumaki but a fucking child could handle the Rinnegan while an Uchiha with Senju DNA couldn't?


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## LostSelf (Jan 23, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Why is this thread even open?
> 
> 
> 
> That was completely retarded. I get that he's an Uzumaki but a fucking child could handle the Rinnegan while an Uchiha with Senju DNA couldn't?



That's why Nagato passed out a lot when he used them, probably. And probably is a reason why he took so long to master it (and had nobody that knew about it, unlike having Sharingan, in an village full of Sharingans ).

I think Nagato would've been a lot more powerful if Madara had trained him.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 23, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> At the end of the day, Nagato ended up superior.



As far as Obito, Kabuto, Orochimaru, etc. were concerned it was clear Itachi was the superior ninja, albeit with inferior eyes. But having better eyes doesn't make you the better fighter.​


LostSelf said:


> Nagato destroyed a village



Both Deidara and Orochimaru were either shown or stated to be capable of destroying villages, and Itachi was blatantly portrayed to be on a much higher level than either.

If you take Ao and Shikaku and Nagato's hype of Itachi's genjutsu abilities on the global war scale, then Itachi would likewise be capable of doing so. And if not, it's apples and oranges anyway.​


LostSelf said:


> killed Jiraiya (Oro's equal)



Jiraiya was consistently portrayed as Orochimaru's inferior, albeit on a similar level. We saw this when they were mutually handicapped, from their past when Jiriaya couldn't stop Orochimaru, etc.​


LostSelf said:


> Killed Kakashi (Deidara's superior)



"But Kakashi couldn't destroy a village," right? And didn't Deidara's clone nearly kill Kakashi with huge amounts of backup, requiring Kakashi to use a better Kamui feat than he ever used on Nagato?​


LostSelf said:


> and had KCM Naruto and Bee in checkmate. I bet you Prime Itachi wouldn't do that.



That was definitely PIS on Naruto's part, who conveniently forgot that Nagato could use Preta right after seeing it e.g. _"Doh! I just saw Itachi use Tsukuyomi on Bee. Why'd I look in his eyes!?_​


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## LostSelf (Jan 23, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> As far as Obito, Kabuto, Orochimaru, etc. were concerned it was clear Itachi was the superior ninja, albeit with inferior eyes. But having better eyes doesn't make you the better fighter.​



Kabuto didn't care when he lost Itachi, yet, was ranting a lot when he lost Nagato.



> Both Deidara and Orochimaru were either shown or stated to be capable of destroying villages, and Itachi was blatantly portrayed to be on a much higher level than either.​





Not Pain arc Konoha.



> If you take Ao and Shikaku and Nagato's hype of Itachi's genjutsu abilities on the global war scale, then Itachi would likewise be capable of doing so. And if not, it's apples and oranges anyway.




That's unsustained. Itachi was the best genjutsu user they've known. They also knew Itachi was resurrected, or at the very least, presumed it. It's easy to get to a conclusion if they thought it was genjutsu wich was controlling the alance.

Also, controlling masses with genjutsu is not always superior to wipe the entire battlefield with the same difficulty or less. 



> Jiraiya was consistently portrayed as Orochimaru's inferior, albeit on a similar level. We saw this when they were mutually handicapped, from their past when Jiriaya couldn't stop Orochimaru, etc.​



From the past. And probably Jiraiya didn't want to kill Orochimaru just like Naruto couldn't kill Sasuke. Jiraiya has more hype than Oro behind. Giving Pain troubles is one of the very hype that beats Oro's.

In fact, i bet Oro wouldn't dare to face Pain.



> "But Kakashi couldn't destroy a village," right? And didn't Deidara's clone nearly kill Kakashi with huge amounts of backup, requiring Kakashi to use a better Kamui feat than he ever used on Nagato?​



Put them in Konoha, and let's see if they can destroy it. Deidara'd be terribly stomped, Kakashi as well. None of these guys (not even Itachi) can fight a village, make their Hokage pass out, fight the village's MVP, two-panel him, face a Bijuu who was likely Sannin level, and win again. In a manga where huge Megazords and big AoE blasts are the thing, Nagato outshines every other Akatsuki member.



> That was definitely PIS on Naruto's part, who conveniently forgot that Nagato could use Preta right after seeing it e.g. _"Doh! I just saw Itachi use Tsukuyomi on Bee. Why'd I look in his eyes!?_​



As well as it was PIS that Kabuto forgot about Itachi. The author's intentions there were to portray Nagato as a fierce force that required teamwork to take on. Even the chapter's name implies it.


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## Dr. White (Jan 23, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> That's unsustained. Itachi was the best genjutsu user they've known. They also knew Itachi was resurrected, or at the very least, presumed it. It's easy to get to a conclusion if they thought it was genjutsu wich was controlling the alance.
> 
> Also, controlling masses with genjutsu is not always superior to wipe the entire battlefield with the same difficulty or less.


I disagree with this notion. Both Ao and Shukuku (from different villages) claimed that Itachi could accomplish a feat such as just not on the same scale.

forcing team members to fight eachother to the death via mind control is a pretty good way to pre empt invading a village.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 23, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Kabuto didn't care when he lost Itachi, yet, was ranting a lot when he lost Nagato.



I think you're misunderstanding the situation. He was ranting when he _lost_. The chance for Shisui's eye, two tailed beasts, as well as his two best Edo Tensei (barring Madara) was stripped from him. Later, when facing Itachi and Sasuke, he claimed Itachi was the greatest pawn of his Edo Tensei due to his variety of techniques, knowledge, and other qualities that made him who he was.​


LostSelf said:


> Not Pain arc Konoha.



Without massive PNJ, a split-up Six Paths would've been horribly raped based on feats with people like Gai, Lee, Danzo, Tsunade, Kakashi, Hiashi, Yamato, Neji, plus thousands of others in the village. Seriously, think about it. Gai can solo. Danzo and Tsunade can at least take three weaker ones. Kakashi can take two weaker ones. _Konohamaru_ can take the weakest one...​


LostSelf said:


> Also, controlling masses with genjutsu is not always superior to wipe the entire battlefield with the same difficulty or less.



Itachi himself, upon being questioned by Nagato as to why Kabuto wasn't using his genjutsu abilities, told Nagato that he believed Kabuto was saving his genjutsu as the trump card in the war. Presumably the same hype Ao was referring to in knowing Itachi could control large numbers over wide areas. Raw destruction doesn't offer the same utility as mass genjutsu control.​


LostSelf said:


> In fact, i bet Oro wouldn't dare to face Pain.



One of the many reasons Orochimaru was Jiraiya's superior is because he's smarter.​


LostSelf said:


> As well as it was PIS that Kabuto forgot about Itachi. The author's intentions there were to portray Nagato as a fierce force that required teamwork to take on. Even the chapter's name implies it.



The author also intended to have Itachi look better than Nagato. Itachi took out Nagato with Amaterasu. Nagato regenerated. Then cut him apart with Susano'o. Nagato regenerated. Then sealed him. Then Nagato apologized. Then Bee said Itachi was brilliant, not just all about power (like Nagato.) Then Itachi gave Naruto Hokage advice, and said he'd handle one Big Bad.​


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## LostSelf (Jan 23, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I think you're misunderstanding the situation. He was ranting when he _lost_. The chance for Shisui's eye, two tailed beasts, as well as his two best Edo Tensei (barring Madara) was stripped from him. Later, when facing Itachi and Sasuke, he claimed Itachi was the greatest pawn of his Edo Tensei due to his variety of techniques, knowledge, and other qualities that made him who he was.​



He still had Madara. Nagato was the one that forced him to do so. If Kabuto was so desperate and feeling Itachi was superior, he would've ranted when Itachi broke free. Not when he lost Nagato. But he didn't care, because he had Nagato and was fapping with his powers.



> Without massive PNJ, a split-up Six Paths would've been horribly raped based on feats with people like Gai, Lee, Danzo, Tsunade, Kakashi, Hiashi, Yamato, Neji, plus thousands of others in the village. Seriously, think about it. Gai can solo. Danzo and Tsunade can at least take three weaker ones. Kakashi can take two weaker ones. _Konohamaru_ can take the weakest one...​



Of course, with Gai there, the village wouldn't have suffered that much. However, i meant with Gai not being there. Deidara and Kakashi still can't do it. Konohamaru got a lucky shot, that's it. Pain didn't care, he kept his search and Naraka was unscathed. Just a bit disabled for some time. And that's probably Nagato didn't feel Konohamaru as a threat or cared to fight him. He had more attention on Tsunade and Kakashi.



> Itachi himself, upon being questioned by Nagato as to why Kabuto wasn't using his genjutsu abilities, told Nagato that he believed Kabuto was saving his genjutsu as the trump card in the war. Presumably the same hype Ao was referring to in knowing Itachi could control large numbers over wide areas. Raw destruction doesn't offer the same utility as mass genjutsu control.​




But he said combining both powers. Itachi didn't know Kabuto had Madara, wich is like a combination of both, under his sleeve. I agree Itachi's genjutsu abilities are more than amazing, though., and both are different. But raw destruction often does what Genjutsu tries to do. Win a war. No need to put your enemies under an ilusion if they're dead. Madara Uchiha doesn't rely much on it, Hashirama doesn't, Juubito/Juudara doesn't, etc. They all rely on sheer power. The strongest jutsu of the Uchiha (Susano'o) is pure power and destruction.



> One of the many reasons Orochimaru was Jiraiya's superior is because he's smarter.​



But he dared to face Itachi.



> The author also intended to have Itachi look better than Nagato. Itachi took out Nagato with Amaterasu. Nagato regenerated. Then cut him apart with Susano'o. Nagato regenerated. Then sealed him. Then Nagato apologized. Then Bee said Itachi was brilliant, not just all about power (like Nagato.) Then Itachi gave Naruto Hokage advice, and said he'd handle one Big Bad.​



Of course. Itachi looked great. The author managed to combine two things: Show us Nagato's powers and show Itachi being amazing. And he did. Itachi looked amazing, and the one who saved Naruto and Bee from Nagato's powers.But that doesn't mean Itachi can do so alone. As the author intended.  Nagato showcased it, the chapter name says it, and Itachi lecturing Naruto on overcoming bigger obstacles relying on friends actually implies it.

Again, i agree Itachi is great (i love his character, appearance, fighting method, wich is brilliant, etc). But i just don't see him on Nagato's level.

*Dr White*: I gotta agree with you. But where AO stated that? I don't remember.


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## Ghoztly (Jan 23, 2016)

Comes down to the Rinnegan being OP.

Itachi shits on Nagato fundamentally, but Nagato has the better eyes.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 24, 2016)

Could go either way. Really depends on how they use their abilities and respond to each other, and what works or what doesn't.


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## Dr. White (Jan 24, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> But he said combining both powers. Itachi didn't know Kabuto had Madara, wich is like a combination of both, under his sleeve. I agree Itachi's genjutsu abilities are more than amazing, though., and both are different. But raw destruction often does what Genjutsu tries to do. Win a war. No need to put your enemies under an ilusion if they're dead. Madara Uchiha doesn't rely much on it, Hashirama doesn't, Juubito/Juudara doesn't, etc. They all rely on sheer power. The strongest jutsu of the Uchiha (Susano'o) is pure power and destruction.


But Madara's end Game was to use Mugen Tsukuyomi to rule the world, and the most hax Susano weapon is gen/Fuinjutsu. Part of the reason Kaguya was feared was because of her genjutsu range.




> *Dr White*: I gotta agree with you. But where AO stated that? I don't remember.


Shikaku wondered who could be responsible for divisions urning on eachother, and hypothesized Itachi., but not on a scale of multiple divisions, hundreds of people, and across countries (right before they found out the real cause of course).


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## Matty (Jan 24, 2016)

Full knowledge Nagato knows he's dead if he doesn't use the big guns immediately. Avoids any eye or finger contact and claps his hands together for a massive CT or CST. Could also summon GM.

Itachi is the better shinobi but he lacks the firepower necessary to take someone like Nagato down quickly so I have to give it to nagato. Ammy gets gakido'd and Susano'o isn't helping when he's drifting towards the core/flying backwards from CST


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## Sadgoob (Jan 24, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> He still had Madara. Nagato was the one that forced him to do so. If Kabuto was so desperate and feeling Itachi was superior, he would've ranted when Itachi broke free. Not when he lost Nagato. But he didn't care, because he had Nagato and was fapping with his powers.



He believed he could re-acquire everything there with Chibaku Tensei. He ranted when that wasn't the case. As a chessmaster, he was frustrated that the opportunity slipped by him.​


LostSelf said:


> Of course, with Gai there, the village wouldn't have suffered that much. However, i meant with Gai not being there. Deidara and Kakashi still can't do it. Konohamaru got a lucky shot, that's it. Pain didn't care, he kept his search and Naraka was unscathed. Just a bit disabled for some time. And that's probably Nagato didn't feel Konohamaru as a threat or cared to fight him. He had more attention on Tsunade and Kakashi.



If you make a thread of Pain vs Kakashi, Tsunade, Danzo, Hiashi, Yamato, and Sakura, then based on feats, most people would correctly say Team Konoha win without 10,000 backup. It was PNJ.​


LostSelf said:


> But he dared to face Itachi.



Orochimaru was avoiding going anywhere near Itachi for most of the series, the exceptions being when Itachi was 11 with a 3-tomoe, and when Itachi was blind, exhausted, and moments from death.​


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 24, 2016)

When will the Itachi wankers just give it a rest? Itachi's genjutsu DOES NOT WORK on Nagato. Itachi LACKS THE FIRE POWER to stop CT.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 24, 2016)

Nagato lacks the mobility to avoid the Totsuka.


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## Empathy (Jan 24, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> People can rightfully give Nagato the nod in overall movepool, but it's silly to overlook the fact that Itachi's much better at using his own great movepool more effectively...​



But what does he do about _Chibaku Tensei_?



Sadgoob said:


> Nagato lacks the mobility to avoid the Totsuka.



He can fly, though.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 24, 2016)

Empathy said:


> But what does he do about _Chibaku Tensei_?



Kill Nagato before he uses it. He did cut apart Edo Nagato a few times before CT came out. Itachi with knowledge on CT would be that much more motivated to prevent the technique's use.​


Empathy said:


> He can fly, though.



Not too frequently IC though, and perhaps not with the precision or speed that ninja on foot can acquire. Kabuto said Nagato wasn't mobile _enough_ to avoid Itachi's attack.

Nagato did appear pretty mobile in flanking Naruto and Bee and handling them well, but not enough for the Totsuka, at least according to Kabuto.​


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## Empathy (Jan 24, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Kill Nagato before he uses it. He did cut apart Edo Nagato a few times before CT came out. Itachi with knowledge on CT would be that much more motivated to prevent the technique's use.​
> Not too frequently IC though, and perhaps not with the precision or speed that ninja on foot can acquire. Kabuto said Nagato wasn't mobile _enough_ to avoid Itachi's attack.
> 
> Nagato did appear pretty mobile in flanking Naruto and Bee and handling them well, but not enough for the Totsuka, at least according to Kabuto.​



So Nagato basically has to decide to not fly and not use _Chibaku Tensei_? Most people can defeat anybody if the other person lets them win.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jan 24, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Kill Nagato before he uses it. *He did cut apart Edo Nagato a few times before CT came out.* Itachi with knowledge on CT would be that much more motivated to prevent the technique's use.​
> 
> 
> Not too frequently IC though, and perhaps not with the precision or speed that ninja on foot can acquire. Kabuto said Nagato wasn't mobile _enough_ to avoid Itachi's attack.
> ...



Yeah because Nagato was already fighting 2 extremely powerful shinobi and raping them. He was only caught off guard because he was fighting 3 people.

Itachi is by himself in this fight he dies no question about it.


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## Kai (Jan 24, 2016)

Three on one is all the thought that is needed to determine the winner here. 

MVP, yes, but three on one


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## LostSelf (Jan 25, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> He believed he could re-acquire everything there with Chibaku Tensei. He ranted when that wasn't the case. As a chessmaster, he was frustrated that the opportunity slipped by him.​



But that still implies Nagato was more valuable than Itachi. If Itachi was the superior Edo Tensei, Kabuto wouldn't have been so "meh" when Itachi broke free. He would've ranted _when_ Itachi did. And if Itachi was superior to Nagato there, Kabuto would've just summoned Madara and would've never tried with a weaker edo tensei than the one he lost and two more as backup.

That is considering he needed Naruto and Bee to have Obito on his back. Yet, he didn't. He held Nagato higher than Itachi.



> If you make a thread of Pain vs Kakashi, Tsunade, Danzo, Hiashi, Yamato, and Sakura, then based on feats, most people would correctly say Team Konoha win without 10,000 backup. It was PNJ.​



None of these guys, even together, have a shot of busting CT (So, they'd need to kill Pain before). But they can take on Itachi easily. But that's not the point. The point is Itachi/Kakashi/Deidara/Oro facing the village like Pain did. They wouldn't get far.

Talking about PNJ. Nothing says Nagato can't summon Deva Path back to his side (or all his destroyed paths) and re-send them to the village right away. Or re-summon Deva Path to his side and use Chibaku Tensei. Without PNJ, he as well has what it takes to solo, given the right mindset. 



> Orochimaru was avoiding going anywhere near Itachi for most of the series, the exceptions being when Itachi was 11 with a 3-tomoe, and when Itachi was blind, exhausted, and moments from death.​



Itachi had MS in his first fight with Oro. And Orochimaru wasn't stomped like in two moves. He just knew he was not going to win. Nagato can do the same with a ST and make Oro know he's not on his level. If he dares to even try to fight the Rinnegan, though.

Also: What *Kai* said is what i've been saying for years.


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## LostSelf (Jan 25, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> But Madara's end Game was to use Mugen Tsukuyomi to rule the world, and the most hax Susano weapon is gen/Fuinjutsu. Part of the reason Kaguya was feared was because of her genjutsu range.



That was a goal he wanted, and genjutsu was the best method. Madara could've had wiped out the entire world if he desired.



> Shikaku wondered who could be responsible for divisions urning on eachother, and hypothesized Itachi., but not on a scale of multiple divisions, hundreds of people, and across countries (right before they found out the real cause of course).



They hypothesized Itachi, because they were looking for answers. Their premise was "genjutsu controlling the aliance", so, they were basically thinking of possible answers, and Itachi was one. But that doesn't mean he is capable of, because Ao already discarded Itachi being the one. Not because of an army. Ao said "_To control somebody that precisely_". He was speaking of controlling one person at that distance to be impossible for Itachi, let alone an army.

But i know Itachi can control people, he did it like twice in the manga. However, one of the had to be controlled with Tsukuyomi


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 25, 2016)

We're going off topic here ...
This is my input
Nagato pushes Madara to high/extreme diff till PS Comes out then he loses


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## Sadgoob (Jan 25, 2016)

Empathy said:


> So Nagato basically has to decide to not fly and not use _Chibaku Tensei_? Most people can defeat anybody if the other person lets them win.



Nagato has to not immediately fly and use Chibaku Tensei, which isn't what he's done in any fight ever. If Nagato to follows your Colosseum strategy, then sure he can win.​


Kai said:


> Three on one is all the thought that is needed to determine the winner here.



By that logic, Gai < Shoten Kisame. You should factor in the fact that when Itachi or Gai used their offensive techniques, Nagato and Kisame died instantly. Being outnumbered doesn't mean anything.​


LostSelf said:


> But that still implies Nagato was more valuable than Itachi. If Itachi was the superior Edo Tensei, Kabuto wouldn't have been so "meh" when Itachi broke free.



Kabuto was basically in shock and had technically lost at that point, because Nagato needed to regenerate for awhile from Amaterasu. PNJ kept Itachi from sealing Nagato then.​


LostSelf said:


> Itachi had MS in his first fight with Oro.



No he didn't. According to the timeline, was before Itachi attained the MS. It was 7 years before part one. Itachi awoke MS jutsu on the day of the massacre 4 years prior. Plus the MS was never shown.​


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## Empathy (Jan 26, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Nagato has to not immediately fly and use Chibaku Tensei, which isn't what he's done in any fight ever. If Nagato to follows your Colosseum strategy, then sure he can win.​



I'm not saying Nagato will immediately fly up and use CT right off the bat as part of my KC strategy, but why will "_Itachi with knowledge on CT would be that much more motivated to prevent the technique's use_," while Nagato ostensibly doesn't benefit from his knowledge at all? If he knows the _Totsuka_ is fast and dangerous to him (and he apparently can't absorb it), then flying is a no-brainer, simple preemptive measure that can be accomplished with ease. 

Meanwhile, Itachi has to go from zero to sixty and quickly use his best trump card before Nagato has a chance to use the jutsu that Itachi can't counter, whilst Nagato already possesses an easy countermeasure toward Itachi's aforementioned trump card. I don't see how Itachi winning in that situation can be an unbiased view. We've seen IC Nagato fly to cope with his lacking mobility before and we've seen him elevate high before using extremely taxing jutsu.


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## LostSelf (Jan 26, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Kabuto was basically in shock and had technically lost at that point, because Nagato needed to regenerate for awhile from Amaterasu. PNJ kept Itachi from sealing Nagato then.​




Yes, he was. But not because he lost Itachi. He was in shock because Itachi surprised him. Yes, Itachi could've sealed Nagato there. Under the circunstances he was. One on one is a different thing.



> No he didn't. According to the timeline, was before Itachi attained the MS. It was 7 years before part one. Itachi awoke MS jutsu on the day of the massacre 4 years prior. Plus the MS was never shown.​



Didn't Itachi have the Akatsuki robe when he fought Oro?
​


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 27, 2016)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> When will the Itachi wankers just give it a rest? Itachi's genjutsu DOES NOT WORK on Nagato. Itachi LACKS THE FIRE POWER to stop CT.



The replies to this thread should have ended after this post.


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