# Great Debate Redux: Munboy vs EnergySage: Kabuto vs Pain



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2013)

*Munboy Dracule O'Brian*




VS

* Energy Sage*



Range - Short
Location - Naruto's Wind Training Area
Judge - *Puppetry *
Restrictions: No Edo Tensei for Kabuto
Knowledge - Manga
Clarification: For CT purposes assume Nagato is about the same distance away from Pain as he was in the Naruto battle. 

Grading Rubric Reference:

*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Feasibility - 25 Points




How likely a strategy purposed is to work. For example if I purpose something basic like someone uses a sound based Jutsu to target someone through Susano'o, that's high feasible since we've seen it done in the manga. However if someone were to purpose an extremely complex strategy like someone bushin fients someone into hitting another bushin, which than paralyzes them so that another bushin can perform x jutsu, than another bushin comes in and does XYZ, well you get the picture; that would certainly score low in this category.




2. IC - 25 PointsF




Basically how likely it is for that specific character to use the strategy you purpose. For example if I say Jiraiya summons a Toad, that's pretty IC and would be scored highly here. However If I were to instead say Itachi starts a match using Izanami right away i'm going to need a dam good explanation for why this is IC otherwise i'm probably looking at a low score here.




3. How Well It Works - 35 Points




The difference between this and Feasibility is that this measures how effective your strategy would be in countering X ability if it worked, while Feasibility simply measures the likelihood that your strategy would in-fact work in the first place. The reason why I gave this a bit higher point value in the score is I want there to be a little extra incentive for people to take some risks once and awhile and be creative with their strategies, thinking outside the box. So this way even if they loose some points in feasibility and IC, they can make some up here.




4. Post Formating - 15 Points




Basically how well you put your post together. Is it easy to read, are any links you used accessible, and most importantly did you spend your word count wisely, I.E. did you come up with strategies for jutsu which are defining ones in the match such as how Jiriaya can counter MS techs or did you dick around wasting your word count talking about how Jiriaya's can counter Itachi's base Katons. That sort of stuff. 



​


----------



## Axiom (Jul 31, 2013)

So this is just unrestricted Deva Realm Vs Kabuto?


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2013)

Axiom said:


> So this is just unrestricted Deva Realm Vs Kabuto?


It all 6 Pain Paths vs Kabuto. If by unrestricted you mean he can use all of his Jutsu than yes, however  it's not like he can use CST w/o deactivating the Pain paths first or that he can use CT w/o getting closer to Nagato first.


----------



## Axiom (Jul 31, 2013)

Oh okay.  The picture made me think it was just Deva.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2013)

Lol pain stomps. At least put them in the cave and give Kabuto full knowledge.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 31, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lol pain stomps. At least put them in the cave and give Kabuto full knowledge.



That will be for the two to argue and Puppetry to judge.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> That will be for the two to argue and Puppetry to judge.



We can't contribute ?


----------



## Language of Life (Jul 31, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We can't contribute ?



Unless you believe what you said will somehow impact either debaters posts or the judge i really don't think it is possible to contribute to this thread. At least not for it's intended purpose.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2013)

You can give your opinions on what the posters offer up in their post and it's encouraged, but just saying Pain Stomps is kind of missing the point.


----------



## Chad (Jul 31, 2013)

With one handsign, Kabuto can defeat all 6 bodies instantly. I won't say what jutsu it is to be fair, but it isn't Edo Tensei.

Good luck to the debaters.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jul 31, 2013)

This all depends on Kabuto's counter to CT. If Munboy counters that efficiently (MANDA II), then he wins.


----------



## Jagger (Jul 31, 2013)

Bonly Jr. said:


> This all depends on Kabuto's counter to CT. If Munboy counters that efficiently (MANDA II), then he wins.


I fail to see how Manda II is capable of protecting Kabuto from the pressure made by the CT's core and rocks crushing its body. Also, the temperature generated inside such a huge rock is a counter for Kabuto's ability to slip through most attacks.


----------



## UchihaSasukeSama (Jul 31, 2013)

Bonly Jr. said:


> This all depends on Kabuto's counter to CT. If Munboy counters that efficiently (MANDA II), then he wins.




There is another way for Kabuto to get out (Not Suika no Jutsu/Hydrification Technique).


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 1, 2013)

Turrin said:


> You can give your opinions on what the posters offer up in their post and it's encouraged, but just saying Pain Stomps is kind of missing the point.



I just thought the conditions were a bit unfair. I think location means alot for Kabuto.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Aug 1, 2013)

The match isn't going to come down to CT. 
The contestants have to put forth what is their characters most plausible win scenario that is IC.

Good luck convincing the judge Pain uses CT immediately GG IC. 

And without him using those big jutsu at the very start, Sage Kabuto's chances of victory drastically increase.

edit: Since they have to keep IC in mind I'm actually kind of leaning towards Kabuto here.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 1, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _Things to consider_ 



Kabuto's got knowledge on Pain's abilities which would help him immensely. He knows about the Rinnegan's shared vision and all of the powers it provides, considering that he was using Pain Rikudou's abilities while he was controlling Nagato.

Pain is likely to take a formation in battle, Naruto understood why Hell Realm went at the back after witnessing his power. Kabuto who knows the Rinnegan's powers would instantly know why Hell Realm went at the back given his Rinnegan knowledge. As Kabuto knows about CT and Hell Realm, he's likely going to try to take out God Realm and Hell Realm as soon as possible.

We also have to consider that Kabuto arguably knows which bodies are which considering he showed awareness of Pain Rikudou.

Kabuto has Orochimaru's regeneration (seeing as he has Orochimaru's DNA) and Karin's; Kabuto also has his own regeneration jutsu from part 1. That jutsu was limited due to Kabuto's chakra levels. _Now_ Kabuto has all those abilities together, rapidly enhanced by Sage Mode alongside Sage Mode's healing factor. 
Note, in Sage Mode Kabuto doesn't seem to have any chakra issues, meaning his now enhanced jutsu would mean he can recover from just about any hit.

At short range, Kabuto would likely try to break the distance so he can enter Sage Mode. As we know, he thinks very highly of the Rinnegan's power considering his first and second strongest Edo Tensei had its power. On top of that, you can argue that Kabuto isn't comfortable fighting a Rinnegan user without Sage Mode (I'm not considering Edo Tensei in that page as its banned ITT).

It is worth noting that if Sage Mode Feats have shown that if the foe isn't expecting a Sage to attack, the price is quite high.​





*Spoiler*: _Strategy_ 



Normally in areas where Kabuto can hide easily, he would use this jutsu as a diversion then hide to enter Sage Mode. However given the location, he can't simply hide in the area. So I reckon that Kabuto would go underground to enter Sage Mode; *he could do that right after using oral rebirth if Pain uses BT*. He'll then emerge at a safe distance considering who his opponent is, and he'll be able to easily achieve this as he's a sage sensor - Sage Mode makes you a sensor - he'll know where Pain is at all times.

Once Kabuto surfaces, I think Pain is going to start with BT; it is exactly what happens whenever God Realm is with another body fighting a powerful foe -- it is Pain's IC thing. _That_ could allow Kabuto to take out God Realm and Hell Realm with one assault. Indeed, the usual BT combo which helps Pain stomp people can be used against him.
Kabuto can use Sage Mode to perfectly time, he said his perception was rapidly enhanced, as his fight showed many times, same his reflexes. In fact, we even saw a perfect Sage perfectly time a last minute attack against someone who was as fast as V1 A. This shouldn't really be argued against given Sage Mode provides the same core benefits (enhanced abilities like sensing and body/reflexes).

I mentioned that because that is going to be key to how Kabuto could take out God Realm and Hell Realm if/when God Realm uses BT. Inevitably a body like Human Realm, or Demon Realm (remember Pain lacks knowledge on Kabuto's enhancements) would be used for this BT combo. Using his Sage sensing, Kabuto would be able to anticipate any incoming Pain bodies and use oral rebirth at the perfect time to reach the perfect position to slash God Realm. Then right away try to make his way, using a Sage Mode enhanced Shunshun to use the same trick (surprise oral rebirth and the Sage Mode enhanced chakra scaple) to take out Hell Realm. It is possible considering in this scenario, Kabuto would've caught Pain off guard. 

Kabuto tends to cripple his opposition to the best of his ability. For instance against Obito he used Madara; against Yamato he used a specially designed poison; against Sasuke/Itachi he purposely rendered their Genjutsu and melee attacks useless; he even used Tsunade's phobia against her. He even outright said he doesn't let his opposition get the upper hand.
In short, if Kabuto can cripple someone, he will. To reiterate Kabuto would only know which body is Hell Realm because of Pain's formation and he'll know God Realm when he gets BT'd.

Without God Realm and Hell Realm, Kabuto won't have a difficult time against Pain. For obvious reasons, the Outer Path weapons won't work on a perfect Sage. With Kabuto's regeneration, no summon or missile spam is going to do any meaningful damage.

I know, you're wondering what Kabuto can do if Animal Realm summon spams and gets on the bird or within the chameleon. The moment Animal Realm summons, considering Kabuto knows the application of both summons, he's likely to summon Manda two who can sense biological life forms (like Shima) i.e. the chameleon is useless; lets nor forget Kabuto is capable of finding the chameleon too. 
Further Manda II is bigger and faster than Manda, who was pretty fast... Manda 2 also has sharper perceptions i.e. it likely won't be hit with sneak attacks. 
So it could be useful with taking out a few Pains if needed (probably by crushing them) and it could swiftly deal with most summons Pain brings out. While Manda II deals with summons, Kabuto could take advantage of the chaos and use underground sneak attacks (alongside jutsu like the chakra scalpel) to take out any Pain bodies - assuming they'll be on the ground.

Now if Animal Realm (and possibly the remaining Paths) is too high up (on the bird) to reach and if Cerberus is too troublesome, Manda II can stall whilst Kabuto sets up Tayuya's enhanced Genjutsu. Once that lands Kabuto can take them out with Manda II or Kimimaro's jutsu.


*Spoiler*: __ 



_Argued against Pain... feels bad._


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Aug 1, 2013)

Jagger said:


> I fail to see how Manda II is capable of protecting Kabuto from the pressure made by the CT's core and rocks crushing its body. Also, the temperature generated inside such a huge rock is a counter for Kabuto's ability to slip through most attacks.



Not exactly what I had in mind but cool.


----------



## EnergySage (Aug 1, 2013)

Quick question. Is Nagato himself included here, or is it strictly the six paths?


----------



## Puppetry (Aug 1, 2013)

It's just the paths, I think. The title, picture, and most importantly, Munboy's strategy all reference solely the paths.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Aug 1, 2013)

six paths domesticate kabuto animal path can just summon the dog who keeps splitting everytime he gets hit


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 1, 2013)

I don't see how Kabuto dies


----------



## EnergySage (Aug 2, 2013)

*VS*
​





Initial notes-

Location- This location is much different than what Kabuto had at his disposal when fighting the Uchiha Brothers. He will not have the benefit of having as many places to hide, like he did in the cave. This is a relatively open plain, with trees on one side, and a waterfall on the other. Either one takes Kabuto a (relatively) decent amount of time to get to, and to use to hide himself.

Knowledge notes- Kabuto has specific knowledge of the powers of the Paths of Pain, he does not know which body has which power. This will make him unsure of his priorities initially, and give us a major advantage. Finally, Pain has specific knowledge of what Natural Energy Gathering looks like, having witnessed it in both Jiraiya and Naruto.

Strategy- The following strategy will have opening moves, followed by a contingency plan for various events.

Picture of plan-

Opening Moves- Animal Path Pain will begin the match by summoning the Multi-headed Dog, which will charge at the opponent. This one has the highest attack capability of all of Pain's summons. It's ability to constantly harass Pain's opponent, resilience against attacks, and increasing numbers will give extra fields of vision, making it that much harder to combat Pain.


Asura Path will utilize his Chakra Boosters to intercept Kabuto, either attacking him directly, or getting in the path of his escape. He was able to pass roughly the starting distance faster than anyone except SM precognition Naruto was able to react, and thus should have no trouble getting between Kabuto and wherever Kabuto is headed.




> Something important to note here-Base Kabuto has not shown the speed feats to keep up with the Paths of Pain, and thus should be unable to escape easily. Deva Path, at the minimum, has high level speed, shown in his ability to outrun the 6 tailed version of Naruto. Another important note is that, if superthrowing Animal Realm and having Asura Realm summoned will be faster, Pain would opt to go that route.



With Asura Path stalling Kabuto, even slightly, that should be plenty of time for the Paths to catch up with Kabuto. Base Kabuto does not have the might, or the skill to contend with the Six Paths of Pain. He has no way to resist Bansho Tenin, no way to overpower Asura Realm, no Ninjutsu to damage due to Preta Realm, and no where to escape due to the multiple eyes tracking his every movement.

Suffice to say, there is little chance of Kabuto escaping. The next section entertains the unlikely scenario.


Kabuto's state of mind at this point-
From here, the assumption is that Kabuto will be escaping to attempt to get into Sage Mode, given that his abilities in Base are dubious at best. I'd imagine he'd use the same chakra snake tactic to trick the Rinnegan, much like he used it against Itachi and Sasuke's Sharingan. He would have to retreat into the woods to be able to hide effectively.

There are several reasons that won't work, beyond my interception/ harassment plan.

Firstly, as the dogs multiply, they'll be able to sniff out the various snakes, reducing their numbers quite quickly, leaving Kabuto with fewer and fewer decoys. They will multiply as Kabuto attacks them, and if he doesn't attack the dogs, then he'll leave himself open to being attacked. Jiraiya, with the assistance of a summon, and a motion detecting barrier, had a hard time keeping the dogs off of him. This, coupled with Nagato's unparalelled sensing ability(he sensed Kabuto through a barrier miles away), will keep us on top of Kabuto at all times. His ability to absorb natural energy and get into Sage Mode is drastically effected by being constantly harassed and attacked.

Another note is that, if he manages to escape into the forest, we have massive AoE to damage the entire woodland area, sweeping the forest clear. This such as , Deva's larger scale Shinra Tensei, Animal Path's summons such as the Ox, the Rhino, and the Centipede. If Kabuto is moving too fast for us to pursue by normal means, Asura path can always Superthrow Animal Path, who can summon all of Pain's bodies at once. From there, we can use any of the above tactics to stall Kabuto and kill him. A well timed Bansho Tenin plus Asura Head Laser/Black Chakra Rod/ Soul Rip/Fuujutsu Kyuuin can damage/kill Kabuto, or in the case of Black Chakra Rod or Fuujutsu Kyuuin, shut down Sage Mode via absorbtion or chakra disruption(something SM Naruto needed the Kyuubi power to resist.), making him a much easier target. 

Finally, knowing how dangerous Sage Mode is, Deva Path can always opt for Chibaku Tensei, saving himself the time and effort, and potential loss, of dying against a Sage Mode user.

Hypothetically, Deva Path doesn't want to go that route, and still wants to kill Kabuto, who has obtained Sage Mode at this point. The easiest solution is to play hide and seek, and wear him down. Animal Realm will summon the Chameleon. He and Naraka Realm will hide in the Chameleon and go to a remote location while the other four Paths combat Sage Mode Kabuto. With shared vision, we'll know when the Paths die, and Animal will summon the bodies, Naraka Realm will revive them, and they will attack again. The beauty of this plan is that we can revive the bodies ad infinitum.

Kabuto will be completely unable to find the chameleon. Ma and Pa's standard SM sensing didn't work. Naruto's KCM sensing didn't work. The chameleon shuts down all attempts to sense, outside of unconventional means such as a motion detection barrier or Ma's tongue. Kabuto has no sensing besides Sage Mode sensing, something that already was ineffective against the Chameleon. 

I lied earlier. The true beauty of this plan is that Kabuto has to get everything right, all the time. Pain on has to get it right *ONCE*

tl;dr

The Paths of Pain are fast and versatile enough to prevent Kabuto from getting into Sage Mode, and even if by some miracle he succeeds, we have an infinite influx of bodies to counter him.






Final Note- Good Luck Munboy. Thanks in advance to Puppetry for judging


----------



## Turrin (Aug 2, 2013)

Nice posts on both competitors parts, even though i'm not the judge i'll try and give my thoughts on this match when i get a chance.


----------



## Puppetry (Aug 4, 2013)

I'd like to start off by saying that I'm honored to judge this match. I thoroughly enjoyed reading and analyzing both of your arguments, and wish luck to the victor.

*Munboy Dracule O'Brian​*

Feasibility​
Having Kabuto tunnel through the earth is a major tactical blunder that only has a slim possibility of success, especially since you didn't consider Pein's movements. How will Pein be spending his time? What is Kabuto's counter? You addressed _Banshō Tennin_ adequately, but Pein's arsenal is incredibly diverse and even that says nothing about what he will do while Kabuto gathers natural energy.

Things go a bit smoother once Kabuto starts truly fighting. Your _Banshō Tennin_ counter is perfect; it neatly addresses Pein's IC strategy while emphasizing Kabuto's potent countermeasures. The same holds true for Manda's use when Chikushōdō begins launching _Kuchiyose._

I'm apprehensive about Kabuto going underground to take out the paths once more, though. Pein's already witnessed this trick before, and if it does work against one body, it will doubtlessly fail against the others. What worries me further is that you don't have a purposed counter to _Chō Shinra Tensei_ or _Chibaku Tensei,_ Pein's strongest jutsu. I think its fair to say that if you want to portray Kabuto as a lethal opponent, you must also be prepared for Pein's last resort moves.  

I think roughly half of your proposed moves are viable, but the fact that several vital gambits were poorly planned drags you slightly below the halfway point.

*Score: 12*

IC​
Again, your missteps are where I have the most reservations. I don't think Kabuto's going to just burrow underground without some way to occupy the paths or actually do the digging himself. Likely he would get a large snake such as Manda to do it for him while hides in it mouth, or use multiple snakes splitting off in different directions underground. That's a smarter option, and given Kabuto's intellect, one he's much more likely to take. Similarly burrowing underground once again to covertly take out the paths is unlikely without more distractions, though you at least used Manda 2.

Aside from that, nothing really strikes me as out of character - even the actions I had an issue with weren't outlandish, they just weren't the most likely or the smartest.

*Score: 18*

How Well It Works​
I'm going to be frank - it doesn't, because their wasn't enough ambition. To me, this will likely be a bit of a chaotic match given the sweeping offensive techniques that Pein has, and many of your movements feel so reserved. You don't mention _Senpō: Muki Tensei,_ _Senpō: Hakugeki,_ and only dabble in the potential of _senjutsu_-powered Sound 4 abilities. Instead, you focus on subtler tactics such as digging underground and _Chakura no Mesu_ sneak tactics- which are fine, but without the counterbalance of grander assaults, you picked the wrong approach.

It's this lack of aggression, this lack of ferocity that truly hinders your strategy from success. I think it you had been a bit more adventurous and taken a few more liberties with Kabuto's admittedly ambiguous skillset, your strategy would have possessed the verve it lacks. 

*Score: 20*

Post-Formatting​
I didn't really care for the fact that you only used two categories - I think more subdivisions would have given your strategy a bit more structure, but that isn't the real issue. The true problem is poor pacing. Reminding me that Sage mode makes you a sensor, spending multiple paragraphs on countering _Banshō Tennin,_ glossing over Kabuto attaining sage mode, your overlong Things to Consider section - by condensing these points and expounding upon others, you could have crafted a much more muscular strategy.

This is easily the biggest problem of your strategy, and it's also what pulled your score down in other areas; you didn't put the detail, the nuances needed for a strategy to work. Often, I feel like I'm grabbing at mist - there's something there, but it's largely insubstantial.

*Score: 5

Total: 55*

_*EnergySage*​_
Feasibility​
The first few sections are fine. I think you underestimate base Kabuto's swiftness - he was capable of jumping away from Tobito and then summoning _Edo Tensei,_ blitzed Yamato, and did manage to escape within the depths of the cave against the Uchiha brothers, but that's really it. I don't see Shuradō being much more than a minor distraction for him, which you slightly acknowledge.

However, your relentless attempt to portray Kabuto is desperate, weak and confused wears thin with lines such as this:



EnergySage said:


> He has no way to resist Bansho Tenin, no way to overpower Asura Realm, no Ninjutsu to damage due to Preta Realm, and no where to escape due to the multiple eyes tracking his every movement.



This simply isn't true. Oral Rebirth as well as Manda 2 are both effective responses to these techniques. 

Sensing Kabuto is where real issues arise - Cerberus never located anything through smell, but he's a shinobi dog, so I suppose it's plausible. Nagato's sensing is much more outlandish. The one instance he did was the result of Kabuto's chakra _flowing_ through him. He also didn't have the mental and physical demands of the six paths, both of which explain why he couldn't find Jiraiya when he fled into Amegakure's pipes.

The forest clearing is a nice touch; Kabuto's advantage lies in the forest, so removing it while keeping Pein from harm was smart. It's more likely than the hide and seek tactic that you proposed afterwards, which doesn't play towards Pein's strengths.

The chameleon is clever but infeasible; the databook states she sensed it through smell, and according to Sasuke, snakes heavily rely on their noses.

But these are comparatively small issues in the face of your total neglect for Kabuto's jutsu. Nowhere in your strategies do you outline any of Kabuto's techniques and explain their counters - you're too busy constructing the artifice of Kabuto hopelessly outmatched and perilously exposed. 

*Score: 13*

IC​
The spamming is slightly unwarranted given your portrayal of Kabuto as helpless and scared, as well as Pain's nigh-total unawareness of his techniques. The hidden resurrection strategy is clever but seems a little of out of character - it has two paths essentially doing not much of anything until another dies. Everything else aligns well with Pein's mindset, so I won't subtract too many points.

*Score: 20*

How Well It Works​
This is where your strategy truly shines, because you picked the right move. Going full-throttle against Kabuto - whose now going to be attempting to tunnel underground - was an excellent move that's likely to quickly disrupt Kabuto gathering natural while exposing his location. Preventing him from attaining _Sennin Mōdo_ is highly likely to happen, ending the match right there. Perhaps is the chaos that ensues grants Kabuto a slender opening to become a sage, but that's the only flaw.

Fortunately, you've still prepared for even that. The forest is clearing is smart, and more importantly, effective. Kabuto isn't helpless in an exposed setting, but being obscured is where he shines, so taking away his domain is a good move. Of course, sensing and the chameleon aren't feasible, but neither is instrumental to your argument. These creative flourishes that will cost you, but don't prevent other aspects of your strategy from working.

It's a solid strategy that has Pein hitting hard and fast, which is fairly basic, but works given the depth of his power. Still, the lack of countersteps is disheartening, but you developed a strong hypothetical scenario, which helps to even things out.

*Score: 25*

Post Formatting​
Formatting was basic but adequate. I would have liked a little more structure, but it isn't detrimental. Similar to Munboy's analysis, your biggest problem is your poor use of words. Your constant downgrading of Kabuto with pictures and occasionally outlandish statements often detracted from your well-constructed strategy and highlighted your hollow examination of his abilities. It reads like a KC strategy, but this debate is more than that.

*Score: 5

Total: 63*

Overall I think this was certainly a fair effort from both contestants, but I would have liked to see a bit more detail and ambition. Often I found myself subtracting points more for that than anything else. These were still enjoyable speeches, and I am looking forward to what is ahead. But for now...

*Winner: EnergySage*


----------



## EnergySage (Aug 6, 2013)

Sorry this took so long to get to.
Thanks to Munboy for the competition, and Puppetry for the judging


----------



## DaVizWiz (Aug 6, 2013)

Read both arguments, my opinion is it was scored rather horribly. 

I see no reason why Pein should win by a margin of 13 points over Sage Kabuto with Manda II, full knowledge and forest cover. 

Nagato doesn't even know who Kabuto is. He might know him as Orochimaru's assistant because Sasori and Obito did, but that's plain speculation. He doesn't know a third of his arsenal, he doesn't even know his powerscale as a Sage Mode user- because he doesn't know he's a Sage, nor does he know Orochimaru is. 

EnergySage's strategy consists of bringing out all of the guns when Kabuto immediately attempts to avoid head-on combat, which is completely illogical and OOC. Nagato is not ordering Asura to Head Laser, or Animal to bring out the entire summoning arsenal to pressure and disallow an opponent he only knows to be a second-hand assistant to an equal Sannin in Jiraiya (Orochimaru) who he already defeated with Pein to enter SM- a mode he does not know Kabuto can enter. He's certainly not ordering Deva to level the forest, because he simply can't- with a 6 way chakra split he won't be clearing much of a forest out and that means he's also going to damage the paths around him. His largest fast-paced Boss sized ST was when he was the only path out, and it couldn't even kill Gamabunta. Kabuto tanks it with a smile while burrowing. 

My opinions on the judging system are pretty prevalent already on my own debate thread. This one only goes to further prove the inconsistencies of this system.


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Read both arguments, I see no logical counter to Manda II- a near unavoidable FCD, stealth killing by Kabuto and Tayuya's Flute.
> 
> How the fuck did this guy win by 13 points? Nagato doesn't even know a third of Kabuto's arsenal.



Relax, this is fantasy discussion. You can't take the points seriously.


----------



## EnergySage (Aug 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Read both arguments, my opinion is it was scored rather horribly.
> 
> I see no reason why Pein should win by a margin of 13 points over Sage Kabuto with Manda II, full knowledge and forest cover.
> 
> ...





joshhookway said:


> Relax, this is fantasy discussion. You can't take the points seriously.



Once again Viz....its not about which character would win. It's about many, many factors.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Aug 7, 2013)

EnergySage said:


> Once again Viz....its not about which character would win. It's about many, many factors.


I'm sorry Sage, you cannot win if you're debating for a character, in a simulated battle, who ultimately loses.

It's illogical.

The entire point of the debate is to decide out who defeats who by simulating strategies which bridge to that end.

The bottom line is simple- Kabuto can and will defeat Pein majority of the time.

I read your strategy, and your opponent's- you did not change my mind.

Not mentioning the fact that I outright disagreed with most of the judge's scoring, forget the scoring- Pein loses, IMO, based on the strategy you both provided. If Pein loses, you should not be given a higher score than the person who debated for the winning Kabuto.


----------



## Puppetry (Aug 7, 2013)

DaVizWiz, I think the issue here is that you're not seeing things from someone else's perspective. I don't believe that Pein loses, and judging by several of the replies found in this thread as well as the fact that this was chosen as a debate, quite a few are in agreement with that

The same holds true for your beliefs on what the purpose of these debates are. You may simplify the matches as to which character wins, but I don't, and I don't think others do, either.

There will always be dissenters questioning whether my judgement was accurate, but I don't mind. I stand by my judgement.


----------



## EnergySage (Aug 7, 2013)

He doesn't understand that this competition is more about debate quality than it is about which character wins


----------

