# How strong is Tobirama Senju?



## IzayaOrihara (Jan 26, 2016)

*How strong is Tobirama Senju (alive, not Edo) Discuss and answer these questions:*
*1.* _Who is the strongest person Tobirama could defeat? (can be restricted versions of character ie 3T Madara or Golem restricted Hashirama for example)_
*2. *_Who is the weakest person that could defeat Tobirama?_
*3.* _Pay attention while answering this and think about it deeply: Is Tobirama stronger than Tsunade? Yes or No? Please justify your answer._


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## Matty (Jan 26, 2016)

Why put the weakest. The weakest is like any infant in any village. Strongest is probably somebody like EMS Sasuke from the kabuto fight or Itachi. Also could possibly be Ms Obito.

Tobirama is stronger than tsunade. Battle tactics, FTG, Edo Tensei and superior speed and reflexes alow him to match up well against her


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

1. Pain w/ Full knowledge

2. Orochimaru [Poison]

3. Yes. Tobirama has Suiton, Hiraishin and Edo Tensei. He has speed and reflexes going for him too. Tsunade's limited in that she's really good at healing and punching but apart from that she's not got much. In terms of how they would fare against each other, Tobirama would easily bisect her with Suidanha or decapitate her.


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## Saru (Jan 26, 2016)

Isn't this just like the other thread? 

The weakest who I think can beat Tobirama with a high degree of confidence is probably Base Hashirama. Orochimaru with Poison is also possible (but kind of cheap, and doesn't really say a lot about where I think Tobirama stands).

The strongest person I think Tobirama can defeat with a high degree of confidence is probably Madara (MS) or Gai (without opening the final Gate).

Tobirama's a good deal stronger than Tsunade. Hiraishin allows him to tangle with top-tier characters who Tsunade doesn't stand a chance at beating, like Nagato, Minato, Itachi, Kakashi (War Arc), Obito (MS), and Killer B, and Tobirama's overall capabilities allow him to do far better against a wider range of strong opponents than I think Tsunade ever would.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Tobirama is as strong as Uchiha Madara before he acquired the EMS according to the author. 

1. The strongest person he could defeat is Itachi and potentially six paths of Pein
2. Kirabi
3. Tobirama baby shakes Tsunade


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 26, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> Why put the weakest. The weakest is like any infant in any village.



When i say this what i mean is i want to gauge his strength
I want to know the "range of his strength" if you know what i mean

As for the answers to question 3, ive never really seen Tobirama as better than tsunade but its nice to get a clearer perspective from you guys but be honest is he really got the firepower to put her down or the stamina to outlast her or the ability to survive against Katsuyu


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## Matty (Jan 26, 2016)

Haha read that wrong, my bad. Weakest that could beat him... hmmm I would say maybe someone like Minato. I think he is a really strong fighter. It would be tough for anyone below Minato level to beat him

Sorry izaya. I thought you meant the weakest Tobirama can defeat. That would be like any baby in Konoha


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Tobirama is as strong as Uchiha Madara before he acquired the EMS according to the author.



This

I put him easily above the Sanin and Itachi.
Defeats Obito since he has the perfect counter
Pain/Nagato could go either way imo but I would give the edge to Pain
So probably around MS Madara level...

Tobirama destroys tsunade with ease lol


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## Matty (Jan 26, 2016)

He can't beat pein but might have a chance with full knowledge. Still tough when he can break out CT whenever he wants. If he gets deva first though it's over most likely


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> He can't beat pein but might have a chance with full knowledge. Still tough when he can break out CT whenever he wants. If he gets deva first though it's over most likely



It's not over unless he gets Naraka right afterwards, Naraka would try to revive Deva as quickly as possible.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> He can't beat pein but might have a chance with full knowledge. Still tough when he can break out CT whenever he wants. If he gets deva first though it's over most likely



Chibaku tensei is useless against a space-time user. He just gets out of it


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## hbcaptain (Jan 26, 2016)

1-Probably Nagato .
2-Pain .
3-Tobirama is far stonger than Tsunade , he is far more reflexive , faster , he is also Suiton master and has Edo Tensei Explosive tags . Clearly the two of them aren't the same category .


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## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> This
> 
> I put him easily above the Sanin and Itachi.
> Defeats Obito since he has the perfect counter
> ...



You are right. I change my answer. The strongest he can defeat is Obito. I think Obito is stronger than Itachi and Pein but Tobirama is a bad match up against him


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 26, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> This
> I put him easily above the Sanin and Itachi.
> Defeats Obito since he has the perfect counter
> l



That being said i dont see Tobirama beating Orochimaru or even SM Jiraiya for that matter. I could be wrong about Jiraiya but im pretty certain Tobirama aint got the firepower to put down Orochimaru. The guy tanked a reduced menacing ball. Whats Hiraishingiri gonna do to Orochimaru? Tickle him? Dont make me laugh. But i guess Orochimaru is an anomaly due to his durability because Tobirama can beat people equal to him and stronger than him.

And im still not sure if Tobirama can beat Tsunade or maybe even Jiraiya.

I dunno anymore. Tobirama's strong but just doesnt have that ... 'oomph' to take him to the tier where he was portrayed to be


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> You are right. I change my answer. The strongest he can defeat is Obito. I think Obito is stronger than Itachi and Pein but Tobirama is a bad match up against him



I think that he would defeat Young Obito in Minato's position but I can't see him defeating War Arc Obito.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I think that he would defeat Young Obito in Minato's position but I can't see him defeating War Arc Obito.



He absolutely wrecks him. He still has superior reflexes to him and is smarter than him. Unless Obito has jinchirukis with him, Tobirama wrecks him


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> That being said i dont see Tobirama beating Orochimaru or even SM Jiraiya for that matter. I could be wrong about Jiraiya but im pretty certain Tobirama aint got the firepower to put down Orochimaru. The guy tanked a reduced menacing ball. Whats Hiraishingiri gonna do to Orochimaru? Tickle him? Dont make me laugh. But i guess Orochimaru is an anomaly due to his durability because Tobirama can beat people equal to him and stronger than him.
> 
> And im still not sure if Tobirama can beat Tsunade or maybe even Jiraiya.
> 
> I dunno anymore. Tobirama's strong but just doesnt have that ... 'oomph' to take him to the tier where he was portrayed to be



Isn't really durability, it's that Orochimaru can repair his body and just render all damage irrelevant. Suidanha could tear Oro in half but the problem is that Orochimaru can put himself back together. Tobirama wins by just wearing Orochimaru down until he runs out of Chakra, either that or Orochimaru poisons Tobirama imo.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 26, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> 1-Probably Nagato .
> 2-Pain .
> 3-Tobirama is far stonger than Tsunade , he is far more reflexive , faster , he is also Suiton master and has Edo Tensei Explosive tags . Clearly the two of them aren't the same category .



Tobirama has weaker Suiton feats than Kisame, Mei and Zabuza, all of whom are people Tsunade can defeat. And why're you assuming Tobirama comes to battle with ET sacrifices prepped. Who would he even revive let alone sacrifice for Gojo Kibaku Fuda. The best hes doing without ET is a Kibaku Enjin level attack. This is why im reluctant to just wank Tobirama into the tier above the Sannin. He hasnt shown me how he can defeat any of them. This is why ive always believed Hashirama > Prime Hiruzen > Minato > Tsunade/Sannin > Tobirama. And im not just gonna assume Tsunade wont dodge Suidanha just because people think she is slow when in reality she is not. And like i asked the others before, how is Tobirama getting around Katsuyu? How is he answering Byakugo constant regen. Have you even considered Ranshinsho? These FTG users may be fast bit that doesnt mean its impossible to land hits on them.Tobirama took damge from Izuna and the guy didnt show any speed to write home about.





Itachі said:


> Isn't really durability, it's that Orochimaru can repair his body and just render all damage irrelevant. Suidanha could tear Oro in half but the problem is that Orochimaru can put himself back together. Tobirama wins by just wearing Orochimaru down until he runs out of Chakra, either that or Orochimaru poisons Tobirama imo.



Orochimaru stamin/resilience/chakra capacity > Tobirama IIRC. I know he is a Senju but come on, Orochimaru was competing with Tsunade, who had higher than average Senju reserves due to Yin seal top up.


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Orochimaru stamin/resilience/chakra capacity > Tobirama IIRC. I know he is a Senju but come on, Orochimaru was competing with Tsunade, who had higher than average Senju reserves due to Yin seal top up



Tobirama can actually keep up his performance consistently though, all he has to do is keep going at Orochimaru until he finally puts him down. I agree that Tobirama can't win via conventional means though, he's going to have to just persevere.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Orochimaru stamin/resilience/chakra capacity > Tobirama IIRC. I know he is a Senju but come on, Orochimaru was competing with Tsunade, who had higher than average Senju reserves due to Yin seal top up.



Tobirama could use hiraishin to transport two bijuus while transporting one left Minato tired. Both Tsunade and Orochimaru had less chakra than Jiraiya. We know it takes a truckload of chakra to learn sage mode, so we have to conclude that Minato had more chakra than Tsunade and Orochimaru if he learned sage mode. That means Tobirama had more chakra than Orochimaru


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Tobirama could use hiraishin to transport two bijuus while transporting one left Minato tired. Both Tsunade and Orochimaru had less chakra than Jiraiya. We know it takes a truckload of chakra to learn sage mode, so we have to conclude that Minato had more chakra than Tsunade and Orochimaru if he learned sage mode. That means Tobirama had more chakra than Orochimaru



Orochimaru didn't learn Sage Mode because he didn't have the body for it, we can't go assuming things about Tsunade either.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 26, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Tobirama has weaker Suiton feats than Kisame, Mei and Zabuza, all of whom are people Tsunade can defeat. And why're you assuming Tobirama comes to battle with ET sacrifices prepped. Who would he even revive let alone sacrifice for Gojo Kibaku Fuda. The best hes doing without ET is a Kibaku Enjin level attack. This is why im reluctant to just wank Tobirama into the tier above the Sannin. He hasnt shown me how he can defeat any of them. This is why ive always believed Hashirama > Prime Hiruzen > Minato > Tsunade/Sannin > Tobirama. And im not just gonna assume Tsunade wont dodge Suidanha just because people think she is slow when in reality she is not. And like i asked the others before, how is Tobirama getting around Katsuyu? How is he answering Byakugo constant regen. Have you even considered Ranshinsho? These FTG users may be fast bit that doesnt mean its impossible to land hits on them.Tobirama took damge from Izuna and the guy didnt show any speed to write home about.


No , Minato was stronger than Hiruzen in his prime , according to Jiraya "eveyone pales in comparison" , Iruka only heared Hiruzen is the strongest , basically , I would say :
Hashirama>>others due to his chakra's quantity and quality far above others .
then :
Minato>=Prime Hiruzen>=Tobirama>>Sannin

And well , all Kages bar Hashirama are slow in Minato/Tobirama standars , so basically Tsunade is slow against him , Hiraishin combined to cutting Suiton is low diffing the sannin , Byakugou or not . Katsuyu isn't a factor , he slices it with Suiton , well Katsuyu will not die from that but he isn't fast enough to stop Tobirama instantly killing Tsunade .


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## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Orochimaru didn't learn Sage Mode because he didn't have the body for it, we can't go assuming things about Tsunade either.



I am not assuming anything. The third databook gave them lower chakra points than Jiraiya. Fact. That is the author's intent to communicate to us that Jiraiya had more chakra than them regardless of feats


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> I am not assuming anything. The third databook gave them lower chakra points than Jiraiya. Fact. That is the author's intent to communicate to us that Jiraiya had more chakra than them regardless of feats



But it doesn't mean that Tsunade lacked the Chakra required to learn Sage Mode.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> But it doesn't mean that Tsunade lacked the Chakra required to learn Sage Mode.



More likely than not ... Given that her own grandfather had sage mode and apparently slug sage mode


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> More likely than not



We don't really know, Kabuto has a 3 in stamina but he was still able to learn SM.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 26, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> That being said i dont see Tobirama beating Orochimaru or even SM Jiraiya for that matter. I could be wrong about Jiraiya but im pretty certain Tobirama aint got the firepower to put down Orochimaru. The guy tanked a reduced menacing ball. Whats Hiraishingiri gonna do to Orochimaru? Tickle him? Dont make me laugh. But i guess Orochimaru is an anomaly due to his durability because Tobirama can beat people equal to him and stronger than him.
> 
> And im still not sure if Tobirama can beat Tsunade or maybe even Jiraiya.
> 
> I dunno anymore. Tobirama's strong but just doesnt have that ... 'oomph' to take him to the tier where he was portrayed to be



Orochimaru has nothing in his arsenal that can hit or defeat Tobirama. I don't buy into the whole poison thing as he would use it in his matches. Why did he not poison Itachi or etc. I think that's scrapping the bottom of the barrel for ideas

Tobirama on the hand will have a hard time putting down orochimaru due to his regenerating abilities however Orochimaru must consume chakra to do so. He will eventually be worn down. I also do not see him surviving the paper bomb blasts(forget name) if tagged

Tsunade is not even in the same ballpark as Tobirama. That's almost a joke


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## Ghoztly (Jan 26, 2016)

Tobirama was above the sannin. He was around Itachi and possibly Minato (alive) tier, arguably a bit above them. He would have given pain a run for his money IMO.

He was faster than Madara and Hashirama, infact I think Madara even admitted as much, that egomaniac admitting anything is superior to him is hype no non-troll fan can downplay.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> We don't really know, Kabuto has a 3 in stamina but he was still able to learn SM.



He learned sage mode because he absorbed genes that allowed him to do so (Juugo's genes) ... He could not on his own


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> He learned sage mode because he absorbed genes that allowed him to do so (Juugo's genes) ... He could not on his own



But if you're talking about Chakra capacity how do genes factor into this?


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## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> But if you're talking about Chakra capacity how do genes factor into this?



Juugo's genes have a latent ability to absorb natural energy. Kabuto learned sage mode because of that ability


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Juugo's genes have a latent ability to absorb natural energy. Kabuto learned sage mode because of that ability



That's got nothing to do with Kabuto's inherent Chakra capacity, he couldn't learn SM if he didn't have enough Chakra in the first place, regardless of how well he could absorb natural energy.


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## fyhb (Jan 26, 2016)

Tobirama is as strong as MS Madara if not even slightly stronger!

Tsunade doesn't have the slightest chance against Tobirama even without ET!Tobirama is way faster and more experienced and has better knowledge,tactics !

Tobirama can deal with Jiraya too even in SM! He has more Chakra Elements and with Hiraishin he can dodge anything Juraya can throw at him!

Orochimaru will be tougher but eventually Tobirama will beat him,well not head on like Tsunade or Jiraya but still can beat him and considering how Oro was afraid by one finger and Charka Tobirama it proves enough!

Tobirama has better reflexes than KCM Minato and SG Naruto so this gives him advantage over most opponents!

The strongest he can beat are probably MS Madar,Minato Alive ,Pain(with high diff) ,Nagato,Itachi and then Sannin! 

Kisame and Mei may have shown more Suiton but none of then has made 1 Sign Water Dragon which basically proves how great Tobirama Chakra Control is and his Skill with Suiton!


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 26, 2016)

On a good day, Tsunade, or Orochimaru sans Edo Tensei. Maybe Jiraiya too, but he mostly loses to him.

inb4 shit storm of quote wars​​


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## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> That's got nothing to do with Kabuto's inherent Chakra capacity, he couldn't learn SM if he didn't have enough Chakra in the first place, regardless of how well he could absorb natural energy.



Except that's how Kabuto learned sage mode. He learned it because he could absorb natural energy by using juugo's cells. Take issue with Kish


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> On a good day, Tsunade, or Orochimaru sans Edo Tensei. Maybe Jiraiya too, but he mostly loses to him.
> 
> inb4 shit storm of quote wars​​



I can't see Tobirama losing to Tsunade in 90% of scenarios tbh. Even if she fakes her death she's not fast enough to actually land a hit on Tobirama when he can Hiraishin away. He's a speedster and she's going to have extreme difficulty even landing a hit on him, combine that with her limited and predictable move pool and she's a goner.


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Except that's how Kabuto learned sage mode. He learned it because he could absorb natural energy by using juugo's cells. Take issue with Kish



But Kabuto would have to have the initial Chakra supply required to even begin learning Sage Mode, it's a pre-requisite. So yeah, I think that Tsunade could learn SM since she has a 4 in Stamina and she's shown exquisite Chakra control.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> But Kabuto would have to have the initial Chakra supply required to even begin learning Sage Mode, it's a pre-requisite. So yeah, I think that Tsunade could learn SM since she has a 4 in Stamina and she's shown exquisite Chakra control.



Apparently not when you have the cursed seal. What you need to learn sage mode with the cursed seal is a strong body not plenty of chakra


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Apparently not when you have the cursed seal. What you need to learn sage mode with the cursed seal is a strong body not plenty of chakra



Could you show me where it's stated that CS circumvents the need of a large Chakra pool?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I can't see Tobirama losing to Tsunade in 90% of scenarios tbh. Even if she fakes her death she's not fast enough to actually land a hit on Tobirama when he can Hiraishin away. He's a speedster and she's going to have extreme difficulty even landing a hit on him, combine that with her limited and predictable move pool and she's a goner.



Tsunade just outlasts him with Byakugou if she has enough chakra stored up. He doesn't have the fire power to put her down, as Gojo Kibaku Fuda is far too impractical without an Edo body. With Orochimaru, his venom blood might paralyse Tobirama and leave him a cripple. Tsunade is just as strong as Orochimaru, so it only makes sense that Tobirama is around Tsunade's level too.​​


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## Ghoztly (Jan 26, 2016)

Actually, out of the sannin I honestly see Tsunade being the only threat to Tobirama because of his lack of firepower, the others would go down to him I think.


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade just outlasts him with Byakugou if she has enough chakra stored up. He doesn't have the fire power to put her down, as Gojo Kibaku Fuda is far too impractical without an Edo body. With Orochimaru, his venom blood might paralyse Tobirama and leave him a cripple. Tsunade is just as strong as Orochimaru, so it only makes sense that Tobirama is around Tsunade's level too.​​



He definitely does have the firepower. What can she do when she's bisected by Suidanha or beheaded? If Tobirama lacks knowledge and tries a conventional attack he just pulls out and tries again. Tobirama's not going to keep slashing her body with Kunai. I agree about Orochimaru since he's smart enough to realise that his only option against Tobirama is poison.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Could you show me where it's stated that CS circumvents the need of a large Chakra pool?



Can't find Juugo stamina stats anymore but they were not top tier as I remember


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## fyhb (Jan 26, 2016)

While we can't be sure of Tobirama full fire power due to the lack of proper 1 on 1 fight and screen time ,we have clearly saw Everything Tsunade can offer!

She has Physical Strength and Strong and Fast Regeneration/Healing and yet she has no means of landing a hit on Tobirama considering his Natural Speed and Reflexes yet alone Hiraishin!So the first time she tries to hit him on Close he Marka her and Escapes and then Beaheads her,I doubt she can heal that!
Probably Tobirama beats her in Chakra Pool too but even if they are even or equal the Healing is taking much more Chakra than Huraishin ,not tp mention Tobirama has more Elements and Techniques while Tsunade is basically Taijutsu with Healing!

I honestly can't see a way for her to even make it difficult for Tobirama.


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## Veracity (Jan 26, 2016)

Portryal and Feat wise, Tobirama is comfortably above the Sannin. I place him in that gap between Itachi and EMS Madara without Kurama- which can be a fairly large gap.

The problem with Tobirama however, is that outside of Edo , he lacks powerful offensive attacks. Characters like Killer Bee, who would find themselves completely overwhelmed could pull of a  win via battle of attrition. 

All in All, he beats almost all mid-tier kage, yet would catch L's against high tier kage like KCM Naruto or Nagato. He could also lose to mid tier kage, with insane resilience or durability like Oro or the Sandaime Raikage.


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## Bonly (Jan 26, 2016)

> 1) Who is the strongest person Tobirama could defeat?



Strongest that he could beat would prolly be either Itachi or Minato although I find those matches to be able to go either way.



> 2) Who is the weakest person that could defeat Tobirama?



Weakest might be Gaara depending on how that battle plays out or I'd go with the Sandaime Raikage. 



> 3)Pay attention while answering this and think about it deeply: Is Tobirama stronger than Tsunade? Yes or No? Please justify your answer.



Not imo. I got them in the same tier and in the same spot, I see him as equal to the Sannin so he's down near the bottom of High Kage lvl for me, only above Onoki.


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

^ Depends on if you think that Tobirama can teleport to Gaara by touching his sand since the Chakra is linked. I remember some people saying that Minato could do it.


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## Bonly (Jan 26, 2016)

Gaara also has sand armor and his auto sand defense so even if he teleports to him that doesn't mean much unless he uses something that can get through the sand and if Gaara manages to flood the place with sand(assuming the location isn't already a desert like area) then that method isn't gonna work out to well.


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## fyhb (Jan 26, 2016)

How exactly can Tsunade defeat Tobirama!?Healing and Punching I doubt that is enough,considering Tobirama is may be Stronger than MS Madara or Equal to him!
I think Tobirama can beat each of the Sannin with different difficulty,Tsunade easiest anf Oro toughest!

And the only Kage Tobirama can't beat is Hashirama and probably Third Raikage(not sure there) but against all I think he has very goos chance to beat,with Speed,Techs and Intelligence,plus really good Chakra and Stamina,although some have greater than him for sure ,but as I said Reflexes,Speed and Intelligence and may be the best or one of the best Sensing Abilities too! 

P.S.Gaara can be difficult but still.he can teleport him far from his Sand and Drown him in big.quantity of Water where not only he has advantage but the Sand will soak and become a burden to Gaard I mean Armor and thats it!


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 26, 2016)

Ghoztly said:


> Actually, out of the sannin I honestly see Tsunade being the only threat to Tobirama because of his lack of firepower, the others would go down to him I think.


Its harder to kill Orochimaru than it is to kill tsunade so what are you talking about? And tell me why you think Sage mode Jiraiya would lose to Tobirama?


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## fyhb (Jan 26, 2016)

Tobirama can escape all SM Jiraya attacks and is faster like whole than him and can Mark him and that's when he gets the Edge,plus probably bigger Arsenal with More Elements and better tactician and strategy with more experience plus and Sensing whichcan help detect J Man Attacks and all,and if he manages to slice Jiraye head or deal enough DMG and leave with Hiraishin I think he can beat Jiraya but with quite some difficulty!


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## Duhul10 (Jan 26, 2016)

Izaya, if you start arguing with this new guy, you will feel exactly what most of the other members are feeling when arguing with you about Oro. Not being mean or something, you are better now than you were when you came here and got banned again and again as I remember. have fun debating ! 
though, he is not as salty as you are


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## Veracity (Jan 26, 2016)

Tobirama would edge out Jirayia via his tremdous speed advantage . Frog Song would literally be the only obstacle.


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## Rocky (Jan 26, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> And the only Kage Tobirama can't beat is Hashirama and probably Third Raikage(not sure there)



Naruto, Hashirama, Minato, Tsunade, A, and AAA are all Kage that Tobirama probably loses too. I suppose that he might have a chance against Tsunade if there's a limit to her Byakugō: Creation Rebirth, but I don't like his chances against the others.


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## Veracity (Jan 26, 2016)

With or without Edo?


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## Rocky (Jan 26, 2016)

I don't think it matters. Reviving cannon fodder who are going to be more gimped than Hashirama was against Hiruzen aren't going to turn the tide against anyone up there.


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## Trojan (Jan 26, 2016)

Tobirama is decent as a Kage. I would place him around the same level as his generation of the Kages
like the Mizukage and Mu. I don't think he's that extraordinary, nor do I believe in the crap about his overrated
speed/reaction and thinking that someone needs to be almost as fast as light to defeat him.

He was never portrayed in that sense as we know that Kin/Gin with no extraordinary speed, reaction or
anything are far stronger than he is. Which means, all those argument about almost no one can hit him
is rubbish at best to be honest.

I also think he is below the sannin-level as well. As Oro was portrayed superior to him in
1- ET (since part 1) which is one of his strongest moves, and obviously Oro is far better
2- Being more talented than Hiruzen who's also more talented than Tobirama.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Naruto, Hashirama, Minato, Tsunade, A, and AAA are all Kage that Tobirama probably loses too. I suppose that he might have a chance against Tsunade if there's a limit to her Byakugō: Creation Rebirth, but I don't like his chances against the others.



I will grant you Naruto and Hashirama. but all the others he beats or beats most of the time.

A and AAA rely on raiton for their fights. Tobirama is faster than them and has mastered all five elements. He can use fuuton to remove their raiton shroud and defeat them. 

Tsunade he kills without much difficulty. She can't touch him but he can repeatedly kill her (directly or through edo tensei explosion), which forces her to use her seal and at she runs out of chakra

Minato could go either way but Tobirama edges out because of edo tensei.




Rocky said:


> I don't think it matters. Reviving cannon fodder who are going to be more gimped than Hashirama was against Hiruzen aren't going to turn the tide against anyone up there.



Tobirama's edo tensei usage is actually better than Orochimaru or Kabuto's. In addition to their jutsus, he can mark them with hiraishin and move them at will and also, they can spam explosions. Do you think that Hiruzen would have won against gimped Hashirama if he was marked with hiraishin and Tobirama could teleport him whenever he wanted?


----------



## Veracity (Jan 26, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I don't think it matters. Reviving cannon fodder who are going to be more gimped than Hashirama was against Hiruzen aren't going to turn the tide against anyone up there.



? Yes it does. Multiple infinite explosions kill A, Tsuande and AAA. The only reason he ever lost againt any of those people is via a lack of offenisve ability. With Edo he gains that.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 26, 2016)

> A and AAA rely on raiton for their fights. Tobirama is faster than them and has mastered all five elements. He can use fuuton to remove their raiton shroud and defeat them.



How do you know that his Wind style is strong and fast enough? 



> Tobirama's edo tensei usage is actually better than Orochimaru or Kabuto's. In addition to their jutsus, he can mark them with hiraishin and move them at will and also, they can spam explosions. Do you think that Hiruzen would have won against gimped Hashirama if he was marked with hiraishin and Tobirama could teleport him whenever he wanted?



How do you know it's IC for Tobirama to fight that way with his ET? 
What about the risks that the Databook mentions about the Explosions?

What about the preparations that the ET required? 



> Minato could go either way but Tobirama edges out because of edo tensei.


How is ET better than the sealing jutsu? Especially Contract Seal in this case?


----------



## Rocky (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> A and AAA rely on raiton for their fights. Tobirama is faster than them and has mastered all five elements. He can use fuuton to remove their raiton shroud and defeat them.



Knowing how to use fūton doesn't make him good enough at it to overpower their raiton and damage their bodies underneath. 



Senjuclan said:


> She can't touch him but he can repeatedly kill her (directly or through edo tensei explosion), which forces her to use her seal and at she runs out of chakra



You're assuming he can outlast her. 



Senjuclan said:


> Minato could go either way but Tobirama edges out because of edo tensei.



Why does Tobirama edge out because of Edo Tensei?


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 26, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I don't think it matters. Reviving cannon fodder who are going to be more gimped than Hashirama was against Hiruzen aren't going to turn the tide against anyone up there.



Even Jonin level Edo are dangrous. They can be filled with explosives, or just be CqC nuisances with weapons. They also act as a conduit for his strongest DC move, which allows him to beat stronger people.


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Hussain said:


> How do you know that his Wind style is strong and fast enough?



The element does not have to be fast. The user has to be. He is faster than them because of space-time ninjutsu. Wind is ALWAYS stronger than lightning. So, that part of the question is moot



Hussain said:


> How do you know it's IC for Tobirama to fight that way with his ET?



Because Madara said it was the reason why Tobirama invented edo tensei



Hussain said:


> What about the risks that the Databook mentions about the Explosions?



Meangless when one has space-time ninjutsu



Hussain said:


> What about the preparations that the ET required?



Once a zombie is created, you can summon it and unsummon at will until it is sealed



Hussain said:


> How is ET better than the sealing jutsu? Especially Contract Seal in this case?



Contract seal requires that Minato touches the summoner and keep his hand on him and keep it there for a while, enough time for Tobirama to teleport


----------



## Rocky (Jan 26, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Even Jonin level Edo are dangrous.



They're not going to be jōnin-level. Orochimaru brought back the top-tier Hashirama and he was barely Kage-level. If Tobirama brings back a jōnin, it's going to be genin or chūnin level. Against the Kage I mentioned, they're irrelevant.


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Knowing how to use fūton doesn't make him good enough at it to overpower their raiton and damage their bodies underneath.



Except it does. Fuuton is > raiton and fodder Suna ninjas hurt sandaime raikage with fuuton after he told them to repeatedly attack him with fuuton. 



Rocky said:


> You're assuming he can outlast her.



Of course. There is nothing she can do to cause him to expand chakra



Rocky said:


> Why does Tobirama edge out because of Edo Tensei?



Because they both have S-T ninjutsu but Tobirama has been portrayed as the superior tactical genius and he has help through edo tensei



Rocky said:


> They're not going to be jōnin-level. Orochimaru brought back the top-tier Hashirama and he was barely Kage-level. If Tobirama brings back a jōnin, it's going to be genin or chūnin level. Against the Kage I mentioned, they're irrelevant.



And if he bring back a kage, it will low jounin level but now this jounin gains unlimited explosions and can be moved with hiraishin, which makes it probably as dangerous if not more than the kage.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 26, 2016)

Rocky said:


> They're not going to be jōnin-level. Orochimaru brought back the top-tier Hashirama and he was barely Kage-level. If Tobirama brings back a jōnin, it's going to be genin or chūnin level. Against the Kage I mentioned, they're irrelevant.



I don't think that's how it works. I'm pretty sure Tobirama and Hashirama outside of having their original strength being upgraded due to power inflation, were just to strong for the Orochimaru's quality of Edo Tensei. I highly doubt that if he could even craft the powers that of Low Kage level ninja that people under that would get gimped a tier. It's more likely Oro couldn't summon power outside of Low Kage level, no matter who it was. Even if we scale tobirama's down to elite Jounin or Jounin level cap, my points about CqC weapons nuisances that keep regenerating, and access to his strongest technique still stand.

Even if we took your interpretation we have seen fodder like Kotetsu and Izuna be helpful against stronger opponents vs akatsuki and in the war. with someone of Tobirama's caliber backing them up (as opposed to War Arc Darui, or Asuma) and inability to die, it would no doubt boost Tobirama inherently.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Except it does. Fuuton is > raiton and fodder Suna ninjas hurt sandaime raikage with fuuton after he told them to repeatedly attack him with fuuton.



Temari working with Suna cannon fodder were _unable_ to do meaningful damage to him. We have no reason to believe that Tobirama is better than Temari by herself at Wind Release. He probably won't be able to do any damage at all.  



Senjuclan said:


> Of course. There is nothing she can do to cause him to expand chakra



Dodging & attacking her expends stamina. 



Senjuclan said:


> Because they both have S-T ninjutsu but Tobirama has been portrayed as the superior tactical genius and he has help through edo tensei



Tobirama was not portrayed as a tactical genius, Minato's Hiraishin is better than Tobirama's, and Minato has help from the toads who actually have feats. 



Senjuclan said:


> And if he bring back a kage



Link me to the scan that implies Tobirama can revive a Kage.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 26, 2016)

Tobirama was pretty much implied to be intelligent and tactical AF. Or at least he made minato look like a child during the War.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 26, 2016)

> [=Senjuclan;55108072]The element does not have to be fast. The user has to be. He is faster than them because of space-time ninjutsu.


His FTG is something, and his ability to use his jutsu (which might require hand-seals) is something
else. 



> Wind is ALWAYS stronger than lightning. So, that part of the question is moot


This is ridiculous. Wind is only superior when it is from the same-level, and stronger/more chakra.
Are you going to tell me for example that Nagato's Wind-Style (C-level)
nonsense
Or those fodders jutsu
nonsense
Can stop Sasuke's Kirin or Indra's Arrow for example? 


> Because Madara said it was the reason why Tobirama invented edo tensei


I am talking about the whole control them with FTG and teleport them to here and there.
When he couldn't even think of teleporting himself and his students out of harm.

And we don't even know how many people he can summon to add to all of that. 


> Meangless when one has space-time ninjutsu


It really isn't. You are here assuming that Tobirama also has pre-marked locations to run away
into that are far away, which also an extra preparation needed. 



> Once a zombie is created, you can summon it and unsummon at will until it is sealed


This is based on nothing, I'll guess?
Like when we see characters cut their fingers to bring some blood to summon an animal, do we not
see them do that over and over again every time? What makes you the summoning changes here?


> Contract seal requires that Minato touches the summoner and keep his hand on him and keep it there for a while, enough time for Tobirama to teleport



Who said so? Did Madara touch Kabuto to break his Contract? No he did not.
The Contract is in both ends. Hence how Narudo can summon the frogs, and how the frogs can
summon Narudo as well.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 26, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Tobirama was pretty much implied to be intelligent and tactical AF. Or at least he made minato look like a child during the War.



Not really...


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Temari working with Suna cannon fodder were _unable_ to do meaningful damage to him. We have no reason to believe that Tobirama is better than Temari by herself at Wind Release. He probably won't be able to do any damage at all.



Except they were able to damage him and we saw edo tensei ashes flying around. So, your argument is moot



Rocky said:


> Dodging & attacking her expends stamina.



dodging and attacking expands little chakra while she uses ninjutsu, which expands lots of chakra. Remember when Danzou used taijutsu to beat Karin? Obito said he did so to conserve chakra. 



Rocky said:


> Tobirama was not portrayed as a tactical genius, Minato's Hiraishin is better than Tobirama's, and Minato has help from the toads who actually have feats.



Except he was portrayed as being able to figure out things Minato could not. He figured out the weakness of the jyuubi jin when Minato could not. He came up with the idea of using mawashu goshin and Minato followed his lead. He figured out what Obito meant as the reason for Minato's edo tensei arm not regrowing when Minato could not



Rocky said:


> Link me to the scan that implies Tobirama can revive a Kage.



I don't need to. Edo tensei allows one to revive anyone whose DNA you have access to. He has access to Izuna, Hashirama and Madara's DNA.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 26, 2016)

So, Tobirama was only able to do so when Minato was actually busy with his student? Lol



> He came up with the idea of using mawashu goshin and Minato followed his lead.


Except Minato was already aware of that, otherwise, he would have asked what is the plan. Unless he somehow
can read the minds.


----------



## fyhb (Jan 26, 2016)

Minato probably figured out why Tobirama would want to Mark Each other knowing about the Techniques but he didn't thought of the idea to use it there in the situation!!

And Minato being busy with his Student is just and excuse!Hiruzen was busy with feeling fighting his Student and Teachers and still had the braind and fast thinking to fight them!


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jan 26, 2016)

Tobirama is a high kage level ninja on par with the Sannin , Minato, Itachi(Healthy), how he stacks up against the other Hokage 

Hashirama and Minato have more hype and are benchmarks for naruto so it goes without saying they are stronger, Hiruzen in his Prime I'm uncertain same as Tsunade both could go either way 

Hashirama>Minato>Tobirama=Hiruzen=Tsunade


----------



## Veracity (Jan 26, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Not really...



Pretty much... Especially considering how short his panel time was. He developed the bulk of Konoha himself and I'd wager he was the smartest of Madara and Hashirama. Once he was revived he caught Juubito and Madara off gaurd while creating counter-attacks off the fly. He created a counter-attack with Naruto against Obito( while Minato didn't even notice the senjustu weakness ) and developed the combo assault against Obito with Minato. Not to mention the Sage, Uchiha, and Senjutsu attacks he could notice on the fly, and the fact that he deduced the abilities of Juubitos black orbs, while Minato didn't even realize he was missing an arm. I'd say its blatantly obvious Tobirama outshines Minato in tactics.


----------



## Kyu (Jan 26, 2016)

All wanking bullshit aside, Tobirama is stronger than the Sannin(individually) and weaker than base Minato and healthy Itachi by a _very_ small margin. 

He isn't fucking with KCM Naruto or Nagato.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 26, 2016)

Kyu said:


> *All wanking bullshit aside*, Tobirama is stronger than the Sannin(individually) and weaker than base Minato and healthy Itachi by a _very_ small margin.
> 
> He isn't fucking with KCM Naruto or Nagato.



Isn't what u said wanking tho?


----------



## Itachi san88 (Jan 26, 2016)

Equal to Minato, more or less....


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Hussain said:


> His FTG is something, and his ability to use his jutsu (which might require hand-seals) is something
> else.



Irrelevant. They won't know where he is, which creates an opening



Hussain said:


> This is ridiculous. Wind is only superior when it is from the same-level, and stronger/more chakra.
> Are you going to tell me for example that Nagato's Wind-Style (C-level)
> nonsense
> Or those fodders jutsu
> ...



1. A jutsu level has nothing to do with strength. I am surprised you don't know this
2. To answer your question, yes. The elemental wheel is what it is. Indra's arrow has sage chakra in it, so it is a totally different level



Hussain said:


> I am talking about the who control them with FTG and teleport them to here and there.
> When he couldn't even think of teleporting himself and his students out of harm.



Canon that he fought by teleporting people during battle. We have seen during the war multiple times and he said he used to teleport his brother for combo attacks



Hussain said:


> And we don't even know how many people he can summon to add to all of that.



Still irrelevant. It does not have to be many people



Hussain said:


> It really isn't. You are here assuming that Tobirama also has pre-marked locations to run away
> into that are far away, which also an extra preparation needed.



 

He only has to throw a kunai out of the explosion range. He knows the explosion range




Hussain said:


> This is based on nothing, I'll guess?
> Like when we characters cut their fingers to bring some blood to summon an animal, do we not
> see them do that over and over again every time? What makes you the summoning changes here?



Based on Kabuto summoning and unsommoning edo tensei at will 



Hussain said:


> Who said so? Did Madara touch Kabuto to break his Contract? No he did not.
> The Contract is in both ends. Hence why Narudo can summon the frogs, and how the frogs can
> summon Narudo as well.



I have no idea what you are talking 

You talked about Minato's contract seal, which requires that Minato touches the summoner to break his control over the summon. I responded to that.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 26, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Isn't what u said wanking tho?



No. Weaker than Itcahi is outright downplay. Tobirama was laying hands on Juubito. Enough said..


----------



## Kyu (Jan 26, 2016)

Dat Juubi level speed.


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> No. Weaker than Itcahi is outright downplay. Tobirama was laying hands on Juubito. Enough said..



I find it funny that people want to act like Kishi himself did not tell us that Tobirama was on the same level as MS Madara and Izuna. If the author says that, it is weird that some want to act like he is on the level of Tsunade


----------



## Trojan (Jan 26, 2016)

> [=Senjuclan;55108267]Irrelevant. They won't know where he is, which creates an opening


No it isn't. Also, not only are u debating about moves that we don't even know, but you seem
to have settled that they are long range and strong enough as well! So many assumptions. 


> 1. A jutsu level has nothing to do with strength. I am surprised you don't know this
> 2. To answer your question, yes. The elemental wheel is what it is. Indra's arrow has sage chakra in it, so it is a totally different level


No offense, but thinking that C-level move will stop Kirin is perhaps one of the most idioitc claims
I have seen in so long.  

Also, I wonder why didn't Indra's Arrow got redirected at Sasuke when it was against Narudo's Wind style move. 


> Canon that he fought by teleporting people during battle. We have seen during the war multiple times and he said he used to teleport his brother for combo attacks


 
Those people have brains to function by themselves, the ET require him to control them as well.
And those multiple times you're talking about, most of them he was actually going with those whom
he teleport as he teleported with Narudo to attack Obito, he teleported with BM Narudo and Minato directly to the target to land the attacks, and he teleported with Minato to let Narudo/Sasuke attack Obito.

And when he teleport them, you will also have to take in consideration the ET reaction and speed.
And so on. 


> Still irrelevant. It does not have to be many people


If Hashirama and Tobirama themselves couldn't handle an old geezer, I wonder how even weaker
people and less will do.  


> He only has to throw a kunai out of the explosion range. He knows the explosion range



Tell that to Kishi. Not to mention for this to land, he will have to make the target stuck as Hashi did to Obito, otherwise getting away is easy especially with someone as fast at the Raikage. 




> Based on Kabuto summoning and unsommoning edo tensei at will


We have seen Kabuto  preparing people to sacrifice. And really, all the ET in the War Arc were
summoned for 1 time. 


> I have no idea what you are talking
> 
> You talked about Minato's contract seal, which requires that Minato touches the summoner to break his control over the summon. I responded to that.





I am telling you the contract is between the summoner AND the summons. Which means it's from both sides

If Minato touches the ET, the contract WILL break, you do NOT need to touch the summoner necessarily.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 26, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> No. Weaker than Itcahi is outright downplay. Tobirama was laying hands on Juubito. Enough said..



He isn't weaker than itachi, nor is he weaker than Minato by "very small margin" 
nor is he stronger than the Sannin. Hence, why that statement was kinda funny
because the second part is kinda full with wank. lol

Sorry Kyu 



> Tobirama was laying hands on Juubito.



And Bolt killed Momoshiki and destroyed his Rinnegan and sent him flying 
So?


----------



## Veracity (Jan 26, 2016)

I guess. Movie feats are always like that though.


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Hussain said:


> No it isn't. Also, not only are u debating about moves that we don't even know, but you seem
> to have settled that they are long range and strong enough as well! So many assuptions.



Long or short range is irrelevant. He has ST jutsu, which means he can get close to them if desired



Hussain said:


> No offense, but thinking that C-level move will stop Kirin is perhaps one of the most idioitc claims
> I have seen in so long.



I would refrain from insults if I were you. I can dish them out too

I will stick to the manga. Level denote the difficulty of learning a jutsu not the power of the jutsu. Furthermore, a fuuton is superior to a raiton regardless of the difficulty of learning either of those jutsus



Hussain said:


> Also, I wonder why didn't Indra's Arrow got redirected at Sasuke when it was against Narudo's Wind style move.



Already addressed so will ignore



Hussain said:


> Those people have brains to function by themselves, the ET require him to control them as well.
> And those multiple times you're talking about, most of them he was actually going with those whom
> he teleport as he teleported with Narudo to attack Obito, he teleported with BM Narudo and Minato directly to the target to land the attacks, and he teleported with Minato to let Narudo/Sasuke attack Obito.



1. Edo tensei don't have to be controlled. They are compelled to act
2. He teleported ninjas away from the god tree as well when he was nowhere near them. Are you really just trying to waste time?



Hussain said:


> And when he teleport them, you will also have to take in consideration the ET reaction and speed.
> And so on.



Irrelevant when they just explode after teleportation. He does not even have to transport them as he did with fodder ninjas. He remote controlled them



Hussain said:


> If Hashirama and Tobirama themselves couldn't handle an old geezer, I wonder how even weaker
> people and less will do.



Irrelevant to your question, which was we don't know how many people he can control.I don't know about you but I am doing this at work. I won't waste my time. Stick to the actual argument we are having



Hussain said:


> Tell that to Kishi. Not to mention for this to land, he will have to make the target stuck as Hashi did to Obito, otherwise getting away is easy especially with someone as fast at the Raikage.



Irrelevant to the question we were discussing, which was whether or not he would get caught in the explosion as well. 



Hussain said:


> We have seen Kabuto  preparing people to sacrifice. And really, all the ET in the War Arc were
> summoned for 1 time.



Sure. Because Kabuto did not summon and unsommon Deidara to prove himself to Obito. Then, summon and unsommed him against Oonoki and then resummoned him for the war




Hussain said:


> I am telling you the contract is between the summoner AND the summons. Which means it's from both sides
> 
> If Minato touches the ET, the contract WILL break, you do NOT need to touch the summoner necessarily.



Baloney. Unless of course you have manga or databook proof. 

At any rate, Tobirama can teleport his edo tensei if he marks them so Minato won't have time to apply the seal and if Minato wants to touch them, he can always say hi to a nice explosion


----------



## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Wind is ALWAYS stronger than lightning. So, that part of the question is moot



No it isn't...


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> No it isn't...



Sure ... You know better than Kishi


----------



## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Sure ... You know better than Kishi



Show me where Kishi has said that all techniques of one nature affinity trump the weaker one.


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Show me where Kishi has said that all techniques of one nature affinity trump the weaker one.



Show me where he said they did not


----------



## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Show me where he said they did not



You're the one that made the claim bro, back it up.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 26, 2016)

@SC

I guess when we can't even agree the most obvious and basic thing like the element stuff, we will  not agree
on anything else. So I guess to each his own...


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> You're the one that made the claim bro, back it up.



I am playing your game bro ... you are also making a claim when you contradict me ... Two can play your game


----------



## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> I am playing your game bro ... you are also making a claim when you contradict me ... Two can play your game



You started it.


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> You started it.



Who cares. I am holding you to the same standard. Anyways, done for the day. Will be busy tonight. Speak tomorrow ... Ta Da!


----------



## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Who cares. I am holding you to the same standard. Anyways, done for the day. Will be busy tonight. Speak tomorrow ... Ta Da!



A Futon & Bijudama Rasenshuriken vs Raiton

Still equalled out


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> He definitely does have the firepower. What can she do when she's bisected by Suidanha or beheaded? If Tobirama lacks knowledge and tries a conventional attack he just pulls out and tries again. Tobirama's not going to keep slashing her body with Kunai. I agree about Orochimaru since he's smart enough to realise that his only option against Tobirama is poison.



She'd never need to worry about that, because Suidanha's only feat is slicing through a mediocre wooden branch, and he certainly doesn't possess the physical strength to behead her. Her durability is high enough to not even take a scratch from a Magatama (a sharp, bladed, spinning object) slamming into her chest, so Tobirama's techniques simply can't cut all the way through her.​​


----------



## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> She'd never need to worry about that, because Suidanha's only feat is slicing through a mediocre wooden branch, and he certainly doesn't possess the physical strength to behead her. Her durability is high enough to not even take a scratch from a Magatama (a sharp, bladed, spinning object) slamming into her chest, so Tobirama's techniques simply can't cut all the way through her.​​



Even if Suidanha can't cut through Tsunade's mid section he should be able to behead her with it. 

Lies about Magatama tho (i think)


----------



## fyhb (Jan 26, 2016)

Does Tsunade have Kakuzu Skin Hardening Techniques so that he can't be Beaheaded with Sword or Suidanha frim mid distance or point blank with Hiraishin!?


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 26, 2016)

Slicing Damage is completely different tan blunt force damage which is what Magatama does. It burrows through things with blunt concentrated force. Nothing suggest Tsunade would get a paper cut from his Water Jet.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 26, 2016)

Itachі said:


> A Futon & Bijudama Rasenshuriken vs Raiton
> 
> Still equalled out



It makes you wonder why it needed all those people to *counter-balanced* madara's katon


Even tho, according to him, it shouldn't have taken more than 1 fodder to *overwhelm* madara's katon.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

To be fair Hussain, Madara's Katon was massive so one could say that it was more about the size than the actual power of the technique. But I agree with you in general, elemental advantages can't make up for everything.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 26, 2016)

Sasuke's Kirin is massive as well and he thinks Nagato's C-Rank jutsu can counter it because
Wind is ALWAYS > Lightning according to him. 

Here is what I said


> This is ridiculous. Wind is only superior when it is from the same-level, and stronger/more chakra.
> Are you going to tell me for example that Nagato's Wind-Style (C-level)
> lightning Arrows
> Or those fodders jutsu
> ...




and here is what he said


> 2. To answer your question, yes. The elemental wheel is what it is. Indra's arrow has sage chakra in it, so it is a totally different level




He just excluded Indra's Arrow cuz of "Sage chakra" 
Or at least that's how I understood him.


----------



## fyhb (Jan 26, 2016)

I think it depends on the user like whole!True not every weaker Jutsu can beat a weaker Element but stronger Jutsu but some times it depends on the strength of the user!

For instance Mei Watter Pillar did pretty well against Madara Katon ! It is possible but not with everyone every time!


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## Icegaze (Jan 26, 2016)

think tobirama is being wanked hard here

he is itachi level and that's as good a claim as he deserves

being good in specific situations doesn't suddenly put him above that

he is good in speed related battles and cqc oriented opponents that don't have the ability brush off his attacks like A and his dad


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

@Hussain

Main power from Nagato's Futon Jutsu came from the Shuriken that was used with it. 

Well, Naruto's FRS had Rikudo Chakra.


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## fyhb (Jan 26, 2016)

Against Forth and Third Raikage I think Tobirama can lose ,mostly against Third but that doesn't make him weaker than MS Madara or Izuna,or Itachi!


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Against Forth and Third Raikage I think Tobirama can lose ,mostly against Third but that doesn't make him weaker than MS Madara or Izuna,or Itachi!



Hah, love the friendly tone from your posts, keep it up man.


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## fyhb (Jan 26, 2016)

I don't know if you are being sarcastic with me ,but I always try to be objective! 
It's a fact Tobirama killed Izuna and Madara himself stated Tobirama was close to him in life! So against the Third Raikage is a matter if Tobirama have Futon Strong enough or s way to hurt him in Raiton Armor!I don't think Tobirama has something to hurt both A's once in Armor but if he manages to strip them off enough is different,but I can clearly see Tobirama losing even if he has a chance or a tie!While Susanoo there are better ways of going around it than Raiton Armor and even we don't know how Tobirama managed to bear a Two MS User!


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## Itachі (Jan 26, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> I don't know if you are being sarcastic with me ,but I always try to be objective!
> It's a fact Tobirama killed Izuna and Madara himself stated Tobirama was close to him in life! So against the Third Raikage is a matter if Tobirama have Futon Strong enough or s way to hurt him in Raiton Armor!I don't think Tobirama has something to hurt both A's once in Armor but if he manages to strip them off enough is different,but I can clearly see Tobirama losing even if he has a chance or a tie!While Susanoo there are better ways of going around it than Raiton Armor and even we don't know how Tobirama managed to bear a Two MS User!



I'm not being sarcastic mate, I agree with you in general. I'd say that it could go either way if Tobirama fought against Itachi, 50/50.


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## fyhb (Jan 26, 2016)

I am glad to hear it!


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## Itachi san88 (Jan 26, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> I don't know if you are being sarcastic with me ,but I always try to be objective!
> It's a fact Tobirama killed Izuna and Madara himself stated Tobirama was close to him in life! So against the Third Raikage is a matter if Tobirama have Futon Strong enough or s way to hurt him in Raiton Armor!I don't think Tobirama has something to hurt both A's once in Armor but if he manages to strip them off enough is different,but I can clearly see Tobirama losing even if he has a chance or a tie!While Susanoo there are better ways of going around it than Raiton Armor and even we don't know how Tobirama managed to bear a Two MS User!


Mmh Madara has never said. He only said that Tobirama it was the fastest ninja...


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## fyhb (Jan 26, 2016)

Madara said something like this"Call it a fate or fortune,but there is a difference/gap in our power NOW" the Quote is not 100% the same due to my memory but I think this pretty much suggests that in life they were close to equal if not even.equal!
And Tobirama defeated MS Izuna who at the time was equal to MS Madara means that Tobirama is equal if not stronger than MS Madara but I can call them equal!


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## Turrin (Jan 26, 2016)

Tobirama has the potential to beat anyone that can't outright tank Multiple Tandem Explosive Tags. Madara and Hashirama would no sell that w/ P-Susano'o and Mokuton Constructs so he's not that strong, but Nagato/Pain could be killed by that, so could Kabuto, also he could outlast Danzo, so I feel like he could take down those guys with the right Tensei. Maybe even BM-Naruto and EMS-Sauce depending on the durability of Susano'o and Kurama avatar versus Tandem Explosive Tags, but that may be pushing it.

As far as the weakest that could beat him, I'd say it would be characters like Jiraiya, Gengetsu, Mu, B, Itachi, Minato, if he doesn't have access to Edo-Tensei or his Edo-Tensei is really underwhelming. 

When it comes to his general level i'd say he ranges from ether slightly weaker than Minato, to at best around BM-Naruto and EMS-Sasuke level if his Edo-Tensei is really good, but still decisively bellow people like Hashi and Madara


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## copydog123 (Jan 26, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Chibaku tensei is useless against a space-time user. He just gets out of it



but extreme gravity warps space and time (relativity). 

joke. I know there is no place for physics here .


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## Trojan (Jan 27, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama has the potential to beat anyone that can't outright tank Multiple Tandem Explosive Tags. Madara and Hashirama would no sell that w/ P-Susano'o and Mokuton Constructs so he's not that strong, but Nagato/Pain could be killed by that, so could Kabuto, also he could outlast Danzo, so I feel like he could take down those guys with the right Tensei. *Maybe even BM-Naruto and EMS-Sauce depending on the durability of Susano'o and Kurama avatar versus Tandem Explosive Tags, but that may be pushing it.*
> 
> As far as the weakest that could beat him, I'd say it would be characters like Jiraiya, Gengetsu, Mu, B, Itachi, Minato, if he doesn't have access to Edo-Tensei or his Edo-Tensei is really underwhelming.
> 
> When it comes to his general level i'd say he ranges from ether slightly weaker than Minato, to at best around BM-Naruto and EMS-Sasuke level if his Edo-Tensei is really good, but still decisively bellow people like Hashi and Madara



@Bold: He wouldn't even dream of that. lol
No way in hell is someone who couldn't defeat Kin/Gin would even stand a ghost of a chance against
BM Narudo, heck, he is not even defeating KCM Narudo.



> but still decisively bellow people like Hashi and Madara


That does not even make sense with your previous statement when comparing him to BM Narudo/EMS Sasuke 

tho about this


> Mokuton Constructs


His explosion tags can destroy them, except for the Buddha because of the massive size...


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## Itachi san88 (Jan 27, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Madara said something like this"Call it a fate or fortune,but there is a difference/gap in our power NOW" the Quote is not 100% the same due to my memory but I think this pretty much suggests that in life they were close to equal if not even.equal!
> And Tobirama defeated MS Izuna who at the time was equal to MS Madara means that Tobirama is equal if not stronger than MS Madara but I can call them equal!



*Spoiler*: __ 







This does not mean that Tobirama it was equal to Madara.

Then come on, I think it's clear that Madara has always been superior to Izuna


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 27, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Even if Suidanha can't cut through Tsunade's mid section he should be able to behead her with it.
> 
> Lies about Magatama tho (i think)



Thats from the _sword that pierced her abdomen_, the Magatama _hit her chest_, and did no visible piercing damage.

And, if the Magatama couldn't even make a scratch on her skin, why should Suidanha be able to slice the entire way through her neck? Furthermore, what feats are there to suggest that Suidanha is even fast enough to blitz her?​​


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## Senjuclan (Jan 27, 2016)

Itachі said:


> A Futon & Bijudama Rasenshuriken vs Raiton
> 
> Still equalled out



That is not just elemental jutsus clashing. You have sage and bijuu chakra included. So, let me answer your question from yesterday

1. When Tsunade went to fight Uchiha Madara, the most powerful katon user. Here is what she said Madara is still a Uchiha. Mei's suiton will defeat his katon ... She did not say well Madara is at a different level. She clearly says, regardless of how strong he is, he is STILL a katon user and suiton will defeat his katon
2. Read databook three entry on when two jutsus of the same element clash. It talks about the Kakashi vs. Kakuzu fight when they both used raiton. Kishi said the only thing that determines the outcome is the amount of chakra in the jutsu not the rank of the jutsu. Kakashi used a higher "level" jutsu to counter Kakazu's gian but guess what? They cancelled each out because they contained the same amount of chakra. So, it goes without saying that if two jutsus of opposing nature clash with the same amount of chakra infused, the fuuton will ALWAYS defeat the raiton. 
3. You guys are confused by jutsu ranks. Read databook I. Jutsu ranks show the difficulty for a ninja to learn a jutsu not the power of a jutsu. The power of a jutsu is determined by the chakra of the user


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 27, 2016)

I think Tobirama is Itachi level. I think thats fair seeing as I consider Izuna to be Itachi's equal. But anyway y'all are making some valid points. Continue discussing and I might even change my mind as to how strong Tobirama is. At least I made an entertaining thread. Continue debating.


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## Turrin (Jan 27, 2016)

Hussain said:


> @Bold: He wouldn't even dream of that. lol
> No way in hell is someone who couldn't defeat Kin/Gin would even stand a ghost of a chance against
> BM Narudo, heck,


Hussain we've seen plenty of Legendary Ninja loose or struggle with weaker ones, due to becoming rusty or lacking all the tools they once had. Tobirama could have not had Edo-Tensei prepared against Gin and Kin, or could have declined in his later years no longer having major threats like Izuna and Madara around to spur on his growth. These are of course just possibilities, and don't necessarily need to be true, but than I didn't say Tobirama was definitely that strong ether, just that he has the potential to be that strong.



> he is not even defeating KCM Narudo.


KCM-Naruto's performances vary widely, so even Edo-Tensei aside, I could certainly see Tobirama beating KCM-Naruto at his worst; though w/o Edo-Tensei he's probably not beating KCM-Naruto at his best. 



> That does not even make sense with your previous statement when comparing him to BM Narudo/EMS Sasuke


What's not to make sense about it; Hashirama > BM-Naruto and Madara > EMS-Sasuke.



> His explosion tags can destroy them, except for the Buddha because of the massive size.


Hashirama defended a 100% Kurama TBB w/ his Mokuton constructs in Base, So no I don't think Buddha is the only one that can do so


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## Senjuclan (Jan 27, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I think Tobirama is Itachi level. I think thats fair seeing as I consider Izuna to be Itachi's equal. But anyway y'all are making some valid points. Continue discussing and I might even change my mind as to how strong Tobirama is. At least I made an entertaining thread. Continue debating.



If Izuna is Madara's equal according the fourth databook and Madara has enough chakra to fight for a full day, then both Izuna and Madara with MS are stronger than Itachi by a good margin


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## Itachі (Jan 27, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> So, it goes without saying that if two jutsus of opposing nature clash with the same amount of chakra infused, the fuuton will ALWAYS defeat the raiton.



So you admit that you were wrong. Previously you said that a Futon would _always_ defeat Raiton. With the same amount of Chakra or Chakra quality a Futon would win, yes.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 27, 2016)

Itachі said:


> So you admit that you were wrong. Previously you said that a Futon would _always_ defeat Raiton. With the same amount of Chakra or Chakra quality a Futon would win, yes.



Nope ... Read my comments carefully. Hussain picked up on it yesterday while you could not and even mentioned it to you ... I had already made a comment about chakra.

However, the question we were discussing was whether or not RANK of jutsu was sufficient, i.e. how do you know that Tobirama has fuuton of a high enough caliber to hurt the raikages. The answer to that question is it does NOT matter. Even a Z rank fuuton will hurt the raikage


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 27, 2016)

Far stronger than any version of Minato besides Kurama Mode.


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## Trojan (Jan 27, 2016)

> [=Turrin;55111599]Hussain we've seen plenty of Legendary Ninja loose or struggle with weaker ones, due to becoming rusty or lacking all the tools they once had.


War Arc Narudo is not rusty tho, and if you mean Gaiden Narudo, then still he will trash Tobirama. 



> Tobirama could have not had Edo-Tensei prepared against Gin and Kin, or could have declined in his later years no longer having major threats like Izuna and Madara around to spur on his growth.


Chiyo mentioned that Tobirama was using the ET in the war, so chances are that not the reason.
As for threats that really even less likely during a war. 

But regardless, the overall portrayed was that Tobirama is weaker than them, and even weaker than Kin alone.
To put him anywhere above that is given him way too much credits that he does not deserve... 



> These are of course just possibilities, and don't necessarily need to be true, but than I didn't say Tobirama was definitely that strong ether, just that he has the potential to be that strong.


True.


> KCM-Naruto's performances vary widely, so even Edo-Tensei aside, I could certainly see Tobirama beating KCM-Naruto at his worst; though w/o Edo-Tensei he's probably not beating KCM-Naruto at his best.


KCM Narudo's performances changes indeed, but that is more noticeable when he is against
several foes at the same time (say like all 6 hosts, or itachi & Nagato)...etc

And even if we give tobirama the preperation here, Narudo's Rassengan made Mu takes too long
to recover


Now, imagine a far worst ET



> What's not to make sense about it; Hashirama > BM-Naruto and Madara > EMS-Sasuke.


At the very least, BM Narudo = EMS madara, which is more than enough to stomp Tobirama.




> Hashirama defended a 100% Kurama TBB w/ his Mokuton constructs in Base, So no I don't think Buddha is the only one that can do so



The Explosion tags destroyed SM Hashirama's gates easily
who outread A _with_ Raiton no Yoroi using 3-TS

and really most of Hashirama's wood (or wood in general) does not have the best feats with durability.
The Wooden Human was almost completely gone after Kurama's tiny TBB (which it resist)


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## Veracity (Jan 27, 2016)

Did it destroy the gates? 

If so then Infinite explosion > Juubidama. Cause IRCC, the gated weren't even effected by a Juubidama.


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## fyhb (Jan 27, 2016)

How BM Naruto equals EMS Madara!? I really can't see that happening,Madara was toying with Naruto ,heck he deflected his attack with his Pan like nothign happened and he didnt even activated Susanoo!?


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## Trojan (Jan 27, 2016)

That ET Madara who had Hashirama's cells, Rinnegan, and limitless chakra and regeneration.

Unlike Narudo who has chakra that is not limitless, and who was fighting 6 Jinchuurikis, 6 Bijuus, itachi, Nagato, WZ, Mu, 3rd Raikage, Kimmimaro, Chiyo, GM, Obito....etc etc


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## fyhb (Jan 27, 2016)

Hmm Madara stoping Naruto with his Pan has nothing to do with being Edo or Chakra and etc!


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## fyhb (Jan 27, 2016)

Clone with Bijuudama is nothing really! OK and even after it I didnt saw BM Naruto dealing anything special again Madara,EMS Madara with Perfect Susanoo owns BM Naruto bad!


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## Trojan (Jan 27, 2016)

And what has madara done to him exactly? 

Did he not say he will catch him, and failed? lol



> EMS Madara with Perfect Susanoo owns BM Naruto bad!



Nice Fanfiction.

PS's sword can't even SCRATCH BM 
who outread A _with_ Raiton no Yoroi using 3-TS
who outread A _with_ Raiton no Yoroi using 3-TS

And before the "This is RM Narudo" and so is Sasuke's PS.


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## fyhb (Jan 27, 2016)

Haha ok then remind me how did BM Naruto deafeated Madara!? With Hashirama big help!


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## Trojan (Jan 27, 2016)

Again, we are talking about EMS, please try to focus. 

Narudo does not have sealing jutsu, so he can't win against ET (except after gaining Hago's power)

Just like how Hashirama was waiting for someone to seal madara cuz he can't seal someone/something.

And in case you haven't noticed, that madara is stronger than EMS madara.


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## Turrin (Jan 27, 2016)

Hussain said:


> War Arc Narudo is not rusty tho, and if you mean Gaiden Narudo, then still he will trash Tobirama.


I'm talking about Tobirama against Gin and Kin.



> Chiyo mentioned that Tobirama was using the ET in the war, so chances are that not the reason.
> As for threats that really even less likely during a war.


Using Edo Tensei in the war doesn't mean he had access to it against Gin and Kin. We literally saw a situation in the war, where an Edo-Tensei user did not have access to their Tensei.



> But regardless, the overall portrayed was that Tobirama is weaker than them, and even weaker than Kin alone.
> To put him anywhere above that is given him way too much credits that he does not deserve...


Nowhere was it implied that Kin alone is stronger than Tobirama. Your really reaching there. There portrayal was that they beat Tobirama once in the past through an Ambush and a second time 1v20, I wouldn't necessarily say that this is a clear portrayal of superiority. Tobirama also was certainly more hyped and performed better once he actually appeared in the war.



> KCM Narudo's performances changes indeed, but that is more noticeable when he is against
> several foes at the same time (say like all 6 hosts, or itachi & Nagato)...etc
> 
> And even if we give tobirama the preperation here, Narudo's Rassengan made Mu takes too long
> ...


The point of Tobirama's Tensei seems to be to act as Suicide bombers, so I don't really think it matters too much if KCM-Naruto One-Shots them or not, because that's their purpose, to run in and get one-shot, while dropping a Tandem Explosive Note or FTG Marking.

So I absolutely can see a scenario where one runs in, Naruto Planetary Rasengan's his ass, but he was Marked, and Tobirama in that moment Naruto gets close to him uses it to teleport behind Naruto and run him through with Hiraishingiri. Or Naruto charges a Tensei and one-shots, but a Tandem Explosive note is dropped and Naruto get's consumed in the explosion.



> At the very least, BM Narudo = EMS madara, which is more than enough to stomp Tobirama.


No he doesn't. EMS-Madara had the power of 100% Kurama + EMS + His Base Skills, Naruto just had the power of 50% Kurama + His Base Skills, even after Naruto can use SM w/ BM, at best SM is making up the difference of EMS, and at best Naruto's base skills make up the difference between Madara's base skills, and that is being extremely generous to Naruto in both of those comparison, but still Madara would have 50% Kurama over Naruto. 

Naruto didn't surpass Madara and Hashirama, until he got RSM.



> The Explosion tags destroyed SM Hashirama's gates easily
> Konoha Training Ground
> 
> and really most of Hashirama's wood (or wood in general) does not have the best feats with durability.
> The Wooden Human was almost completely gone after Kurama's tiny TBB (which it resist)


Did I say Gate or did I say Mokuton Construct? Blocking a Kurama TBB is a huge feat, stop short changing Hashirama


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> 1. Using Edo Tensei in the war doesn't mean he had access to it against Gin and Kin. We literally saw a situation in the war, where an Edo-Tensei user did not have access to their Tensei.
> 
> 2. Nowhere was it implied that Kin alone is stronger than Tobirama. Your really reaching there. There portrayal was that they beat Tobirama once in the past through an Ambush and a second time 1v20, I wouldn't necessarily say that this is a clear portrayal of superiority. Tobirama also was certainly more hyped and performed better once he actually appeared in the war.
> 
> ...



1. Exactly. Using Edo Tensei at one point doesn't mean you had access to it every single time you were in danger. Orochimaru has had about 7 fights over the course of this manga. In how many of them did he have access to sacrifices? So thank you for this post Turrin.

2. Kinkaku and Ginkaku's power levels will forever be unknown. At one point they brought Tobirama Senju to his deathbed and murdered the Second Raikage. Even Madara (bar PS) would have difficulty doing this did. They were powerful enough to survive a battle with the same Kyuubi that murdered Minato and was able to ignore Prime Hiruzen. Then the same guys got negged by Darui. Its the same situation as Hanzo so we have to use their imagination with characters like this. Hanzo could be as strong as Prime Hiruzen yet Kishi shortchanged him as well.

And what evidence is there to suggest Kinkaku was anything to do with the Kinkaku force. Kinkaku and Ginkaku had fled Kumo by then. In fact, they had fled Kumo around the time of the first fight. Why do you think they tried to assassinate the Second Raikage. Zabuza tried the same thing with Yagura.

3. You're on a roll here

4. Correct

5. Blocking a Kurama for a TBB is a feat that no one in the manga bar the Top Tiers and above can do. Even Prime Nagato can't do anything there so correct you are.



IzayaOrihara said:


> *How strong is Tobirama Senju (alive, not Edo) Discuss and answer these questions:*
> *1.* _Who is the strongest person Tobirama could defeat? (can be restricted versions of character ie 3T Madara or Golem restricted Hashirama for example)_
> *2. *_Who is the weakest person that could defeat Tobirama?_
> *3.* _Pay attention while answering this and think about it deeply: Is Tobirama stronger than Tsunade? Yes or No? Please justify your answer._



I guess we've gotten past question 3. So Tobirama > Tsunade? Is that everyone's final answer?

Do we know who the strongest person that can beat Tobirama is? Is it Prime Kinkaku + Ginkaku (who i'm assuming are much better than their shitty Edo selves) and who the strongest person Tobirama can beat? Is it MS Madara/MS Izuna? 

Keep debating if you'd like to. If not then i'll take all of this as everyone's final answer as its the only conclusion we can reach.


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## fyhb (Jan 29, 2016)

I absolutely positive Tobirama can beat Tsunade,he can beat each Sannin but with Different difficulty and Tsunade will be easiest probably,not that she is weak,it is just he is really bad match for her! 
I think Tobirama can beat Kinkaku and Ginkaku 1 on 1 but 2 against 1 with the Rikudou Tools is too much ,hmm I think Tobirama can beat MS Madara and Izuna as well as Hashirama  (without SM and  Budha) ! Plus I still find Tobirama death really unbelievable after I learned he has FTG and I think is more like Plot  needed him death there! 

This is my humble opinion.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 29, 2016)

50% Kurama Naruto tanked the Juubi's beam so PS wouldnt even scratch him.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 29, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> 50% Kurama Naruto tanked the Juubi's beam so PS wouldnt even scratch him.



scan please
im not saying you're lying but i just wanna see the scan so i can see if 50% Kurama took any damage there of the whole attack even engulfed him point blank cos i vaguely remember the opposite happening


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 29, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> I absolutely positive Tobirama can beat Tsunade,he can beat each Sannin but with Different difficulty and Tsunade will be easiest probably,not that she is weak,it is just he is really bad match for her!
> I think Tobirama can beat Kinkaku and Ginkaku 1 on 1 but 2 against 1 with the Rikudou Tools is too much ,hmm I think Tobirama can beat MS Madara and Izuna as well as Hashirama  (without SM and  Budha) ! Plus I still find Tobirama death really unbelievable after I learned he has FTG and I think is more like Plot  needed him death there!
> 
> This is my humble opinion.



HOW IS HE BEATING OROCHIMARU
HOW IS HE PUTTING TSUNADE DOWN
STOP THIS

If KinGin with Rikudou tools (who got beaten by someone with less smarts and waay less power than the Sannin aka Darui) can beat Tobirama then any Sannin flattens him

Sannin >>>>>>>>> Darui > KinGin (based on feats) > Tobirama via your analogy

And Tobirama isnt putting down Mokujin so how is he beating Hashirama


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## fyhb (Jan 29, 2016)

So Tsunade has skin tougher than Kakuzu and can't be cut with Sword or Suidanha and she can outrun Tobirama ok then XD

Edo Tense weren't at full power plus Darui had a lot of help from yhe division and then Ino-Shika-Cho but yeah ok Daruu beat them all alone !

So Jiraya can hit Tobirama who has Reflexes to match Juubito and Hiraishin and More Elements,Experience and FTG ok then!

And Oro can't keep up with Tobirama but has way more ways to escape death and yet its more close to a tie!  

Why does Tobirama has to put Mokujin down when all he need is go to Hashirama vie FTG or climb it XD Plus Suidanha cutted trough many Shinju Branches but can't cut trough Mokujin ok then! 

You got me I lose!


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## Senjuclan (Jan 29, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> HOW IS HE BEATING OROCHIMARU
> HOW IS HE PUTTING TSUNADE DOWN
> STOP THIS
> 
> ...



Orochimaru and Tsunade require chakra to use their regeneration jutsus. Both jutsus are chakra intensive. All he needs to do is wear them out

Kin-Gin needed 18 other people to defeat him and even then, they could not kill him. Also, Darui did not beat Kin-Gin. Are we going to just ignore all the other ninjas present?

Kin-Gin are perfect pseudo jins with KN6. KN4 almost killed Jiraiya and spanked Orochimaru. You want me to believe that these guys stand a chance against two KN6 jins with the help of 18 other people?


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## Itachi san88 (Jan 29, 2016)

Tobirama stomps the sannin, but he can not beat base Hashirama.

Mokujin spanks Tobirama, he has the same size of PS and the same power of kyuubi (by databook), without forgetting Kajukai Korin, Mokuryu and Mokuton spam. Tobirama that beats base Hashirama is so absurd that even the same Tobirama does not believe it. Come on, stop wank


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## Senjuclan (Jan 29, 2016)

Itachi san88 said:


> Tobirama stomps the sannin, but he can not beat base Hashirama.
> 
> Mokujin spanks Tobirama, he has same size of PS and the same power of kyuubi (by databook), without forgetting Kajukai Korin, Mokuryu and Mokuton spam. Tobirama that beats base Hashirama is so absurd that even the same Tobirama does not believe it. Come on, stop wank



I am one of the most ardent supporters of Tobirama on this board but even I would say Tobirama cannot defeat base Hashirama. 

He does however beat the sannin


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## Itachi san88 (Jan 29, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> I am one of the most ardent supporters of Tobirama on this board but even I would say Tobirama cannot defeat base Hashirama.
> 
> He does however beat the sannin


I also support Tobirama, is a monster, but Hashirama is clearly on another level 

And yes, Tobirama stomps the sannin.


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## fyhb (Jan 29, 2016)

I really thought Tobirama can go around Mokujin and get to Hashirama and Behead him or something but I will agree that he can't beat Base Hashirama .

But true he beats the Sannin and MS Madara and Izuna!


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 29, 2016)

Do people honestly not read the manga and realise that Orochimaru & Tsunade require chakra(massive amounts in some cases) to heal/regen....People think its like a passive jutsu. This is 2016 this shit was figured out 10 years ago

The Kin & Gin debate:

We know they ambushed Tobirama & 2nd Raikage during the peace pact  leaving Tobirama near death
We know Tobirama sacrificed himself in order to save his students during the second encounter

Then let's look at the war arc...

Darui was holding his own against the brothers with Intel on the sage tools before the Kyubi's chakra - Tobirama is god tier compared to Darui
From what we have seen of Tobirama during the war arc he would pretty much shit all over kin/gin from what they have shown as Edo Zombies. This leads us to more questions:

1) Did Tobirama along with kin/gin get retconned like the hundreds of other things
2) Did the ET brothers underperform just like Hanzo for example
3) What happened prior to the final battle before Tobirama sacrificed himself?
a) Was he out of chakra from a previous event before being surrounded
b) We know he had a marker on top of the Hokage mountain so why not Teleport his entire team
c) Who were the other 18 members?
d) why not summon some Edo Zombies to "lay waste" to the battlefield while they escaped

This is another exampe of events getting retconned or just the lack of knowledge prior to Tobiramas death and etc. From What Tobirama has shown durring the war arc he would fodder stomp the brothers


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## fyhb (Jan 29, 2016)

I believed Tobirama death till we learned he had FTG and then it became really hard to believe! 

We don't know if Kin/Gin or either was in the 20 Shinobi ,but still I agree there are too many unknowns and variables!

Darui had knowledge on the Brothers and big back up !


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## Senjuclan (Jan 29, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Do people honestly not read the manga and realise that Orochimaru & Tsunade require chakra(massive amounts in some cases) to heal/regen....People think its like a passive jutsu. This is 2016 this shit was figured out 10 years ago
> 
> The Kin & Gin debate:
> 
> ...



I don't get where this idea of two encounters came from. Even DB4 does not mention two encounters. There was only one encounter. The two encounters scenario does not make sense.

When Kin and Gin are revived, they don't say "look we are under the nidaime jutsu even though he killed him". They only say they defeated him. This is strange if they had killed him. Why in the world would they not say they killed him?


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 29, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Orochimaru and Tsunade require chakra to use their regeneration jutsus. Both jutsus are chakra intensive. All he needs to do is wear them out
> 
> Kin-Gin needed 18 other people to defeat him and even then, they could not kill him. Also, Darui did not beat Kin-Gin. Are we going to just ignore all the other ninjas present?
> 
> Kin-Gin are perfect pseudo jins with KN6. KN4 almost killed Jiraiya and spanked Orochimaru. You want me to believe that these guys stand a chance against two KN6 jins with the help of 18 other people?



Who told you Kin and Gin were there? Did you see them? how do you know the squad wasnt named after them? Well?

Kin-Gin left Kumo after they killed Nidaime Raikage and put Tobirama in hospital. They weren't in Kumo at the time that Tobirama was killed.


Senjuclan said:


> Orochimaru and Tsunade require chakra to use their regeneration jutsus. Both jutsus are chakra intensive. All he needs to do is wear them out
> 
> Kin-Gin needed 18 other people to defeat him and even then, they could not kill him. Also, Darui did not beat Kin-Gin. Are we going to just ignore all the other ninjas present?
> 
> Kin-Gin are perfect pseudo jins with KN6. KN4 almost killed Jiraiya and spanked Orochimaru. You want me to believe that these guys stand a chance against two KN6 jins with the help of 18 other people?



The one time we saw Tsunade get outlasted, she was fighting Madara Uchiha (who was Edo and had unlimited chakra). Tell me why you think Tobirama can outlast her. That was wank and you know it.
Tobirama has Senju Reserves
Tsunade has Senju Reserves (from Hashirama, not from a fodder Senju like Hashi/Tobi's father + Uzumaki Reserves - reserves enough to tank Pain and heal all of Konoha / heal a battlefield during 2nd and 4th war + Yin Seal Reserves)
In Byakugo she just plays with her granduncle till he gets tired. FTG allows Tobirama to slash Tsunade with a sword or kunai. The woman took Kusanagi/V3 Susanoo blades through her chest and she was fine. Tobirama doesnt have anything to put Tsunade down. How is he avoiding Katsuyu. Its such a double standard. You say Tsunade requires chakra for regen but so does Tobirama for FTG and he has less chakra than Tsunade so he loses

Orochimaru outlasted KN4 Naruto on his deathbed. When he was passing over to the next world he managed to physically down the same man that killed Deidara (then lost the mental battle). And like i said Tobirama aint got the firepower to do anything. I dont care if he cut through a Shinju Root. So did Kongou Nyoi, yet Orochimaru blocked the same blade with Kusanagi and wouldnt die if he got hit by hit like when you hit someone with a stick so no, Orochimaru beats Tobirama.

Jiraiya is a different story as hes the most vulnerabel of the Sannin but with his sensing hell know where Tobirama teleports to. And where he gonna go? jiraiya just sinks the whole battlefield with Yomi Numa.  
So imagine the size of that at 100% capacity. Then imagine it in Sage Mode. 
Tobirama can only play whack a mole for so long. At some point he's gonna get swallowed by that swamp. Now don't even get me started over what Gamabunta can do.

How does Tobirama get out of  if his marking is on Jiraiya (who is also inside here).

Tobirama also has no viable counter for Gamarinshō. Its just wank to say he can beat a Sannin. Honestly. He's the weakest Hokage. The best he could do was defeat Izuna, who i see as an equal to Itachi,, whom stated jiraiya was stronger than he is. I dont care if people wanna say Itachi > Oro/Tsunade but still their huge reserves and regeneration makes up for it.

*Hashirama > Prime Hiruzen > Alive Minato > Legendary Sannin > Tobirama > Old Hiruzen*


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## Senjuclan (Jan 29, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Who told you Kin and Gin were there? Did you see them? how do you know the squad wasnt named after them? Well?



So, you are saying that Kin-Gin did not kill Tobirama since the squad was named after them but they were not there? Great! There was one fight only. Thank you for making my point



IzayaOrihara said:


> Kin-Gin left Kumo after they killed Nidaime Raikage and put Tobirama in hospital. They weren't in Kumo at the time that Tobirama was killed.



Who cares where they were? Tobirama was talking about were they were FROM not their physical location


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 29, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> So, you are saying that Kin-Gin did not kill Tobirama since the squad was named after them but they were not there? Great! There was one fight only. Thank you for making my point


What im saying is you have no evidence to suggest that Tobirama was killed by Kin-Gin. Show me a panel that proves they were actually there. Team Asuma helped Kakashi etc defeat Immortal Duo. Was Asuma there when this happened? No he was dead. Kin-Gin left the village before Tobirama was killed. But the team they used to lead in kumo still operated under their name. Besides their Darui level so what're you crying about?





> Who cares where they were? Tobirama was talking about were they were FROM not their physical location


 I care where they were because you havent got evidence. Dont think ill just sit here and twiddle my thumbs when i dont know for certain that what yu are saying is true. 


> Tobirama was talking about were they were FROM not their physical location


I don't understand what you mean here. Please explain this to me.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 29, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> The one time we saw Tsunade get outlasted, she was fighting Madara Uchiha (who was Edo and had unlimited chakra). Tell me why you think Tobirama can outlast her. That was wank and you know it.



It is not a matter of time but rather the number of times she needs to use byakugou. With hiraishin, he can "kill" her at will and she is too slow to pressure him



IzayaOrihara said:


> Tobirama has Senju Reserves
> Tsunade has Senju Reserves (from Hashirama, not from a fodder Senju like Hashi/Tobi's father + Uzumaki Reserves - reserves enough to tank Pain and heal all of Konoha / heal a battlefield during 2nd and 4th war + Yin Seal Reserves)
> In Byakugo she just plays with her granduncle till he gets tired. FTG allows Tobirama to slash Tsunade with a sword or kunai. The woman took Kusanagi/V3 Susanoo blades through her chest and she was fine. Tobirama doesnt have anything to put Tsunade down. How is he avoiding Katsuyu. Its such a double standard. You say Tsunade requires chakra for regen but so does Tobirama for FTG and he has less chakra than Tsunade so he loses



You sound unhinged. Manda avoided katsuyu. Do you think Manda is faster than Tobirama?

Tsunade is slow. She can't touch him. He does not even need FTG 90% of the time



IzayaOrihara said:


> Orochimaru outlasted KN4 Naruto on his deathbed. When he was passing over to the next world he managed to physically down the same man that killed Deidara (then lost the mental battle). And like i said Tobirama aint got the firepower to do anything. I dont care if he cut through a Shinju Root. So did Kongou Nyoi, yet Orochimaru blocked the same blade with Kusanagi and wouldnt die if he got hit by hit like when you hit someone with a stick so no, Orochimaru beats Tobirama.



You forget the part where the manga says that using oral rebirth takes a lot of chakra. He is slow as hell too and cannot touch Tobirama. Tobirama will run a sword through him enough time that he can no longer use oral rebirth



IzayaOrihara said:


> Jiraiya is a different story as hes the most vulnerabel of the Sannin but with his sensing hell know where Tobirama teleports to. And where he gonna go? jiraiya just sinks the whole battlefield with Yomi Numa.
> So imagine the size of that at 100% capacity. Then imagine it in Sage Mode.
> Tobirama can only play whack a mole for so long. At some point he's gonna get swallowed by that swamp. Now don't even get me started over what Gamabunta can do.
> 
> How does Tobirama get out of  if his marking is on Jiraiya (who is also inside here).



Tobirama mastered all 5 elements. Yomi numa gets countered. 

I would advise you read what the requirements are for using toad mouth bind and then tell me how the hell Jiraiya succeeds in dragging Tobirama.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 29, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> It is not a matter of time but rather the number of times she needs to use byakugou. With hiraishin, he can "kill" her at will and she is too slow to pressure him
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didnt mention Manda so why are you talking about him and yes Manda is faster in movement speed. Tobirama uses a teleportation jutsu. He can not run from one side of the Land of Fire to the other side faster than Manda can slither there. Thats like saying Tenten can walk from her house to Konoha hospital faster than Kurama can do it.




> You forget the part where* the manga says that using oral rebirth takes a lot of chakra*. He is slow as hell too and cannot touch Tobirama. Tobirama will run a sword through him enough time that he can no longer use oral rebirth


*Bring me the scan. 
I know where it is but i want you to bring it so i can see if youll figure out the secret before i tell you. Its around chapter 395 somewhere there. go and read the page and bring it here and then ill discuss that issue.*



> Tobirama mastered all 5 elements. Yomi numa gets countered.


I don't care if Tobirama mastered the Ten tails. Show me a scan of Tobirama using a jutsu (bar FTG) that allows him to escape Yomi Numa (assuming hes been caught by it and is already sinking).

Nagato mastered all 5 elements (and can use them through his paths) yet a Pain body got caught in Yomi Numa.



> I would advise you read what the requirements are for using toad mouth bind and then tell me how the hell Jiraiya succeeds in dragging Tobirama.


He can set a trap like the one he lured Pain's subordinates into but im not about to start clutching at straws because theres other things he has to kill Tobirama.

I find it funny how you didnt reply to the comment i made about Gamarinshou.


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## fyhb (Jan 29, 2016)

Why Tobirama needs to outlast Tsunade,if he can FTG close to her and behead her with Suidanha or Sowrd!? I doubt she can heal from Beheading!? 

How will Jiraya know where Tobirama will teleport!? Does he read his mind!? He cant sense where he will go,he can sense after he is there and I doubt J Man has the Natural Speed and reflexes that surpass Tobirama!


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 29, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> I don't get where this idea of two encounters came from. Even DB4 does not mention two encounters. There was only one encounter. The two encounters scenario does not make sense.
> 
> When Kin and Gin are revived, they don't say "look we are under the nidaime jutsu even though he killed him". They only say they defeated him. This is strange if they had killed him. Why in the world would they not say they killed him?



Well it would make logic sense if the brothers were part of the Kinkaku Force. Why name it that way...If they were not part of the squard I do not see "20 highly skilled" shinobi taking down Tobirama and co. 

Kin & Gin may have thought they killed Tobirama during the coup d'etat not realising he survived. Could make sense but imo they had two encounters


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