# Doflamingo vs. Jozu



## Vengeance (Aug 13, 2015)

Location: Dressrosa
Distance: 30m
Restrictions: None
Character state of mind: Bloodlust
Versions: Post-TS Doflamingo, Pre-TS Jozu


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 13, 2015)

Did you change your mind, Juvia? 
For some reason, I thought you stated that Doffy is stronger or at least implied such.


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## Ajin (Aug 13, 2015)

Doflamingo wins 10/10 times. Better feats, hype and portrayal, also story-wise there is absolutely no sense for Jozu being stronger than Doflamingo. It's just that simple.


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## Imagine (Aug 13, 2015)

Jozu punts him over the horizon


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## Kaiser (Aug 13, 2015)

Jozu mid diffs him


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## Yuki (Aug 13, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Did you change your mind, Juvia?
> For some reason, I thought you stated that Doffy is stronger or at least implied such.



I never said that. I said Jozu was not stronger. I never stated DD was.


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## Canute87 (Aug 13, 2015)

If it's a fair fight josu wins.

If flamingo tries to get him in the water josu loses.


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## Jossaff (Aug 13, 2015)

DD wins High(high) diff


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## Tenma (Aug 13, 2015)

Doflamingo obviously.

If all Jozu can do with a surprise attack is give Aokiji a lip bleed (Sanji could probably deal more damage with such a direct hit to the face), he doesn't have what it takes to even put down Doflamingo.


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## Kaiser (Aug 13, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Doflamingo obviously.
> 
> If all Jozu can do with a surprise attack is give Aokiji a lip bleed (Sanji could probably deal more damage with such a direct hit to the face), he doesn't have what it takes to even put down Doflamingo.


Sanji gave a direct diable jambe kick to Vergo's face and the only damage he gave was superficial and Aokiji >>>>>>>> Vergo in durability. And you say Jozu only gave him a lip bleed? There was blood near his neck too with Aokiji even *holding his head in pain* and that was a no name attack.


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## Coruscation (Aug 13, 2015)

Jozu high-diff. To this day Jozu has the feat Doflamingo wishes he had and now never will get... actually 1v1ing an Admiral for an extended period of time in a serious combat situation.


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## Ajin (Aug 13, 2015)

Zoro > Luffy/Doflamingo confirmed by Coruscation.

inb4 Fujitora wasn't serious unlike Kuzan (yeah, he looked soooo serious when he low-diffed Jozu after quick fight)


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## Amol (Aug 13, 2015)

Jozu certainly has a better feat though it is not like Doflamingo is shabby in that department.
I think they are on similar general level with I would favor Jozu more times.
Though no nonsense of mid diffing is happening here . It would be a tough fight.


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## Imagine (Aug 13, 2015)

Ajin said:


> Zoro > Luffy/Doflamingo confirmed by Coruscation.
> 
> inb4 Fujitora wasn't serious unlike Kuzan (yeah, he looked soooo serious when he low-diffed Jozu after quick fight)



We know what you're trying to do but that doesn't work. 

The fight was off panel and we only got to see one part of it which was the end when WB was going down and everyone had all eyes on him. 

Try again.


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## Kaiser (Aug 13, 2015)

Ajin said:


> Zoro > Luffy/Doflamingo confirmed by Coruscation.
> 
> inb4 Fujitora wasn't serious unlike Kuzan (yeah, he looked soooo serious when he low-diffed Jozu after quick fight)


Yup it was so low diff that Kuzan couldn't scratch Jozu in a serious battle(it's a war where your collegues die uh) that lasted longer than the Akainu-WB clash until he was distracted, it was so low diff that Oda had to create a distraction for Kuzan to gain the advantage. It was so low diff that Oda decided to add a sentence where he clearly implies a simple misstep could have been the deciding factor for either side


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## TheWiggian (Aug 13, 2015)

Jozu high (low-mid) diff.


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## Coruscation (Aug 13, 2015)

Zoro vs. Fujitora can't even be called a fight and it doesn't help that Fujitora wasn't even remotely serious about capturing the Straw Hats. Since you know his whole plan was to let them do their thing without stopping them.


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## Tenma (Aug 13, 2015)

Jozu showed no ability to get out of Parasite in a race against time. If DD lands that it's over- and between walls of string, Awakening, up to 3 clones, I don't doubt he could land it if Jozu's distracted (which he has an apparent masterclass in).

The whole idea of Jozu winning predicates on the idea that M3 level fighters are total flies to Admirals which I thought had been disproven by now. Or that you need to have fought with an Admiral to be impressive. Personally, DD decisively crushing Law and pre-G4 Luffy, utterly curbstomping Smoker and Sanji and mowing down an entire island in like 20 minutes despite every notable combatant trying to hold you back, all without going remotely all out is more impressive than an ambiguous off-panel skirmish with an Admiral.



Kaiser said:


> Sanji gave a direct diable jambe kick to Vergo's face and the only damage he gave was superficial and Aokiji >>>>>>>> Vergo in durability. And you say Jozu only gave him a lip bleed? There was blood near his neck too with Aokiji even *holding his head in pain* and that was a no name attack.





Er, he's neither bleeding from the neck nor clutching his head in pain. On the contrary he looks like he was scarcely bothered, he doesn't even look like he's in pain. At least Sanji's kick put down Vergo for abit and caused visible pain to him.

The only named technique Jozu has is Brilliant Punk and as far as we know it sucks ass. Given he's a cripple now (also generally irrelevant) it's unlikely he will give us anything more.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 13, 2015)

I believe they're equal in overall stats or at least very close but i'd give the edge to Jozu due to his DF-advantage.
DD's attacks are mostly cutting ones and Jozu blocked a slash from Mihawk w/o a scratch.


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## Imagine (Aug 13, 2015)

Cripple like Shanks?


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## Ajin (Aug 13, 2015)

Amol said:
			
		

> Though no nonsense of mid diffing is happening here . It would be a tough fight.



How could it be tough fight when Jozu can't even touch Doflamingo? He is limited to his arm reach and nothing suggest he have a technique like Geppo or some long-distance attacks. As long as Doflamingo play it smart and stay mid-air, then he is absolutely safe for whole time. He have a kilometers range' attacks and can control whole battlefield, there is nothing what Jozu can do to catch him. 

All Doflamingo needs is to use Parasyte on Jozu and finish him off. There is multiple ways to do it (dropping him into water, penetrate his brain through eyeholes, using Awaking to take him underground and suffocate, burning him and so on). It will not be tough diff fight, it may be long, but that's all. I would say even Vista can do more trouble to Doflamingo, simply because of match-up.


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## Imagine (Aug 13, 2015)

It's not like Jozu can't grab Dofla's strings and reel his ass in. It's not like even Law can react to Dofla's strings or anything


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## Ajin (Aug 13, 2015)

Law have better feats than Jozu all day long and you can't even use "admirals" argument, because Law fought against one of them as well. Try again.


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## Imagine (Aug 13, 2015)

Yeah Law fought so evenly against Dofla/Fuji. Fuji was just sitting there like man this Law guy is pushing me to my very limits.


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## Kaiser (Aug 13, 2015)

Luffy came close in defeating Doffy by himself, when him, Law, strawhats and the entire alliance are currently running away from Fujitora


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## Imagine (Aug 13, 2015)

By Ajin's logic Zoro fought Fuji too


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## Kaiser (Aug 13, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Er, he's neither bleeding from the neck nor clutching his head in pain. On the contrary he looks like he was scarcely bothered, he doesn't even look like he's in pain. At least Sanji's kick put down Vergo for abit and caused visible pain to him.
> 
> The only named technique Jozu has is Brilliant Punk and as far as we know it sucks ass. Given he's a cripple now (also generally irrelevant) it's unlikely he will give us anything more.


I said near his neck. If you look closely, you will see blood dripping on his finger. The fact that Kuzan is holding his head shows that he was in pain

I consider brillant punk as an inconsistency personally unless you think it's weaker than his no name attack


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## Coruscation (Aug 13, 2015)

Ragging on Jozu for lack of attack power because Croc didn't get 1HKO'd by him is like saying that Mihawk's slashes are weak because preskip Luffy didn't get 1HKO'd by one. In other words don't do it, it's stupid and makes no sense. OP is full of these types of situations where characters don't 1HKO other characters even though they're fully capable of it. I can bring out more examples.


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## Freechoice (Aug 13, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> I can bring out more examples.



[YOUTUBE]oTz93Y-qeq0[/YOUTUBE]


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## Tenma (Aug 13, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> I said near his neck. If you look closely, you will see blood dripping on his finger. The fact that Kuzan is holding his head shows that he was in pain
> 
> I consider brillant punk as an inconsistency personally unless you think it's weaker than his no name attack



He's wiping the blood from his mouth, not holding his head (or holding anything). The very idea of holding involves wrapping your hand around something or pressing your hand against it. Aokiji is lightly brushing his fingers against his chin. He's wiping off blood. Its a completely inconsequential injury in a series where people shrug off getting impaled (or in DD's case, getting his organs busted).

Unfortunately neither Brilliant Punk nor Jozu has any particularly impressive feats of offensive power, so I can hardly consider it an outlier


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## barreltheif (Aug 13, 2015)

Doflamingo has better hype, better portrayal, far more relevance, and a more consistent performance. He's probably somewhat better overall. There are situations in which Jozu is better than Doffy. He has better defence and is better at holding off stronger opponents, and he's way stronger physically.
This is a bad matchup. Doffy can fly, and most of his attacks are ranged. Jozu has no ranged attacks. That pretty much already screws over Jozu. Doffy has already shown the ability to parasite Jozu, and we know he can't break out like Luffy can. I really, really can't see Jozu winning.


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## Coruscation (Aug 13, 2015)

Tenma said:


> He's wiping the blood from his mouth, not holding his head (or holding anything). The very idea of holding involves wrapping your hand around something or pressing your hand against it. Aokiji is lightly brushing his fingers against his chin. He's wiping off blood. Its a completely inconsequential injury in a series where people shrug off getting impaled (or in DD's case, getting his organs busted).
> 
> Unfortunately neither Brilliant Punk nor Jozu has any particularly impressive feats of offensive power, so I can hardly consider it an outlier



Because throwing an iceberg that utterly dwarves a giant isn't a particularly impressive strength feat. Uh-huh. I'm sure when Oda drew that he meant for fans to look at it and think "meh, not particularly impressive. This Jozu guy doesn't seem to have all that much power". That seems reasonable.


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## Tenma (Aug 13, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Because throwing an iceberg that utterly dwarves a giant isn't a particularly impressive strength feat. Uh-huh. I'm sure when Oda drew that he meant for fans to look at it and think "meh, not particularly impressive. This Jozu guy doesn't seem to have all that much power".



Eh, Zoro already exceeded his feat this arc. In fact, in an arc where a relative mook is terraforming islands and bringing cities down on people's heads Jozu's feat looks paltry in comparison.


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## Coruscation (Aug 13, 2015)

No he didn't. Zoro used a high-end sword technique. Jozu used purely brute strength. Show me anyone in Dressrosa pulling off a feat comparable to Jozu's with just raw strength. No special techniques or abilities, no Devil Fruits. The only thing that actually compares to it is Luffy's strength in G4, which was clobbering Doflamingo around like a ragdoll.

Jozu's feat was portrayed as a big deal in _Marineford_. The stage of the strongest in the world. Get out of here. It's only through poor interpretation on a reader's part that you could possibly conclude it isn't an impressive feat.


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## Tenma (Aug 13, 2015)

You can bet your ass off whatever Zoro can throw with his swords, Luffy and DD can do with their raw strength. And so what if Jozu didn't do it with fancy tricks? It's not like fighters suddenly don't have access to their DFs and skills. Jozu still did it with a considerable amount of effort.

Frankly, DD splitting 3 large buildings into half by the wind of his kick passing through the air requires more force and power than what Jozu did anyway.

It's a fairly impressive feat, but for me to conclude his offensive power is higher than an average M3 member just because 'Marineford' (which is more of an excuse these days for people to place anyone who didn't participate below Vista). Fact is Oda has been actively giving M3 level fighters feats of that level or higher since the TS and that cannot be ignored.

EDIT: It's not like DD didn't have some badass 2-page spread feat incapacitating Jozu using Parasite, not remotely a top technique for him.


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## Coruscation (Aug 13, 2015)

Oh hoh, really. Then show me Luffy and DD doing anything on that level with raw strength. I'm waiting. And I'll be waiting for a long time since it doesn't exist. Luffy requires either Elephant Gatling or King Kong Gun to compare favorably to that Zoro feat. His highest end Devil Fruit-based moves that are dozens if not hundreds of times stronger than what he can do with his raw strength alone.

What laughable nonsense. Dorry and Brogy slicing that sea king with the wind of their cuts is more impressive than Doffy's kick by that same token since they cut something much bigger from much, much farther away. Jozu's feat in turn makes that look like a drop in the ocean. He not only threw that iceberg but ripped it clean out of the ground all with raw muscle strength.

You said the feat doesn't look impressive by Dressrosa standards. But it UNARGUABLY was portrayed as impressive by Marineford standards, which are much higher than Dressrosa standards. So the idea that it doesn't look impressive by Dressrosa standards is nothing but bad interpretation on your end.


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## Ajin (Aug 13, 2015)

Coruscation said:
			
		

> *Jozu's feat was portrayed as a big deal in Marineford*. The stage of the strongest in the world. Get out of here. It's only through poor interpretation on a reader's part that you could possibly conclude it isn't an impressive feat.



Oda decided to embarrass Jozu by making him a chair for Doflamingo. So much about his portrayal.


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## Tenma (Aug 13, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> Luffy came close in defeating Doffy by himself, when him, Law, strawhats and the entire alliance are currently running away from Fujitora



Both Law and Luffy are probably still weakened. And Fuji is hardly alone- Tsuru, Sengoku, 2 VAs and 5000 marines are with him.

And the SHs run away from marines all the time. If forced to (ie; Fuji holds Rebecca as a hostage and kills Riku for kicks), Luffy would be certain to challenge him no matter what.


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## Tenma (Aug 13, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Oh hoh, really. Then show me Luffy and DD doing anything on that level with raw strength. I'm waiting. And I'll be waiting for a long time since it doesn't exist. Luffy requires either Elephant Gatling or King Kong Gun to compare favorably to that Zoro feat. His highest end Devil Fruit-based moves that are dozens if not hundreds of times stronger than what he can do with his raw strength alone.
> 
> What laughable nonsense. Dorry and Brogy slicing that sea king with the wind of their cuts is more impressive than Doffy's kick by that same token since they cut something much bigger from much, much farther away. Jozu's feat in turn makes that look like a drop in the ocean.
> 
> You said the feat doesn't look impressive by Dressrosa standards. But it UNARGUABLY was portrayed as impressive by Marineford standards, which are much higher than Dressrosa standards. So the idea that it doesn't look impressive by Dressrosa standards is nothing but bad interpretation on your end.



Why the fuck would they need raw strength? It's not like Luffy and DD regularly engage in throwing contests. They have shown feats of a higher level using their abilities, which they rely on massively in combat. Zoro doesn't require any more effort to toss Pica than Jozu does.

That's just circular logic. Instead of going the way of 'DD's feat is better, hence he's stronger than Jozu', all you are saying is 'Jozu is stronger than DD, hence his feat is better, hence he is stronger'. Drory and Brogy are just outliers whereas ever since entry into the New World the SHs and their enemies/rivals have consistently done insane feats.

It was portrayed as impressive because compared to 90% of the fighters there it definitely was. That doesn't make him better offensively than Zoro or his peers. If they were in Marineford, I don't doubt Zoro or Luffy would have some badass looking feat too (in fact, DD already did). Using 'Marineford' as an excuse to put Jozu or Vista on some sort of pedestal has what led to downplay of everyone else.


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## Marik Swift (Aug 13, 2015)

Already been through this debate far too much already, but DD wins this high difficulty at best.

- DD has better feats. Besides stopping Mihawk's slash (a no named one at that), Jozu's feats are terrible. He got parasited by DD and got taken out with a relatively casual attack by Aokiji.

- DD style completely nullifies Jozu's fighting style. Jozu will pretty much be tanking attacks throughout this fight rather than actually hitting DD. Doflamingo can even make this a mid diff fight if done right really.

- DD has a more significant role. Character significance is a important factor in strength. Jozu is one of WB's top three WB commanders and that's it. DD is a former noble, has relations to Kaido, has CoC, has conflicts with two Ds and his defeat has individually stirred things more than anyone bar WB & Ace.​


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## Coruscation (Aug 13, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Why the fuck would they need raw strength? It's not like Luffy and DD regularly engage in throwing contests. They have shown feats of a higher level using their abilities, which they rely on massively in combat. Zoro doesn't require any more effort to toss Pica than Jozu does.
> 
> That's just circular logic. Instead of going the way of 'DD's feat is better, hence he's stronger than Jozu', all you are saying is 'Jozu is stronger than DD, hence his feat is better, hence he is stronger'. Drory and Brogy are just outliers whereas ever since entry into the New World the SHs and their enemies/rivals have consistently done insane feats.
> 
> It was portrayed as impressive because compared to 90% of the fighters there it definitely was. That doesn't make him better offensively than Zoro or his peers. If they were in Marineford, I don't doubt Zoro or Luffy would have some badass looking feat too (in fact, DD already did). Using 'Marineford' as an excuse to put Jozu or Vista on some sort of pedestal has what led to downplay of everyone else.



I'm not saying they need it, I'm saying Jozu's feat is miles better than what they've shown any capacity of in terms of raw strength. You're right that Jozu's offensive power doesn't eclipse Luffy and DD's with their DFs taken into consideration but I never said otherwise.

I haven't said anything about Jozu being stronger than Doflamingo because of the iceberg feat. I'm bringing up the iceberg feat in response to the idea that Jozu doesn't have any impressive power feats. If you think DD wouldn't be majorly hurting from punches from the arms that ripped out and threw an iceberg of that size, you are being simply delusional. Nope, you don't get to claim outlier. DD's feat just plain isn't very impressive let alone anywhere near in hell as impressive as Jozu's feats. It's bog standard NW stuff. Not even that much more impressive than what Kaku did way back in EL in terms of just power.

It wasn't compared to the 90% fodder there. Stop being disingenuous. It was put right alongside the feats of certain pretty strong characters as oh, let's see: Whitebeard, Aokiji, Marco, Kizaru, Mihawk and Akainu. Those are the people whom Jozu was placed RIGHT ALONGSIDE in the war. Those are the people whose feats of comparable stature his massive iceberg throw was thumped down right in the midst of. You're not going to say that Kizaru's laser rain was only impressive compared to the 90% fodder. You're not going to say Aokiji's Ice Age was. You're not going to say Akainu's Great Eruption was. You're not going to say WB's tsunami quake was. So how about you stop singling out Jozu specifically to rag on and downplay like this board loves to do. Considering the feat comfortably shits on anything Luffy or DD has managed with _raw strength alone_, it's safe to say it's just as impressive as its portrayal indicated it to be. If you think it's unimpressive, if you think Jozu doesn't have any impressive feats of power, it's just you who are bad at interpreting the manga. No one who reads Marineford properly could possibly come away with the conclusion that Jozu lacks power of all things. Maybe his power doesn't quite cut it for Admirals, but Doflamingo is certainly no Admiral.


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## NO (Aug 13, 2015)

Why is this still a discussion? Jozu didn't break out of Parasite because he lacks the strength to do so. Luffy had that strength. Connect the dots. We done here.


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## savior2005 (Aug 13, 2015)

i'll give it to doflamingo extreme difficult.


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## Ghost (Aug 13, 2015)

Doffy wins. High diff probably. Extreme at worst. He has better feats and portrayal. Jozu has nothing to favor him.


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## Ekkologix (Aug 13, 2015)

Jozu appears to be very less agile in compared to Doffy :/

I wonder if Jozu can do CoA hardening on his diamond form. If he cant do that he will probably lose. Also maybe Jozu have some sort of DF awakening.

Jozu is just one of those tonnes of characters that got downplayed on the war arc. Nothing new...

But I'm putting my bets on Doffy > Jozu for now due to Jozu's lack of solid feats :/


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## Pocalypse (Aug 13, 2015)

Doflamingo wins. The manga has clearly stated this anyway, nothing is going to change. After getting caught in Dofla's parasite attack, Jozu didn't have the strength to resist or even try to break out of it. If he had some form of control over his body we would have seen him try to resist it with his own strength but he was fully in control by Dofla.


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## Kaiser (Aug 13, 2015)

Jozu's feats, hype and portrayal resolve around his strength more than any of the commanders including Marco, hell maybe even more than admirals. So if you really think strength was the issue, either you agree that Jozu can't break out and thus characters like Marco or admirals can't either or you agree that it was left uncertain and most probably can to remain consistent. It's that or physical strength isn't the way out of parasite. Indeed, it's not impossible that it's rather Luffy's drastical change in form that deflected the parasite strings rather than brute strength since after all, gear4 doesn't really increases Luffy's physical strengh. It increases his damage output however due to elasiticty and base Luffy couldn't get out of it


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## Quikdraw7777 (Aug 13, 2015)

Go D. Usopp said:


> Jozu appears to be very less agile in compared to Doffy :/
> 
> *I wonder if Jozu can do CoA hardening on his diamond form*. If he cant do that he will probably lose. Also maybe Jozu have some sort of DF awakening.
> 
> ...





......what would be the parameters restricting him from doing that?
His paramecia is like Luffy's (body altering).

If he can use it normally, he likely can coat his Diamond in it as well.


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## Gohara (Aug 13, 2015)

Doflamingo wins with high to extremely high difficulty.  Doflamingo has better portrayal than Jozu does and is more versatile than him.


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## savior2005 (Aug 13, 2015)

Doflamingo is more or less equal to the third strongest of an emperor. He'd lose to all the first mates, but can go either way with the second mates, aka the sanji of the crew


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## Bohemian Knight (Aug 14, 2015)

Jozu. Doffy edges him in several areas, but Jozu's Haki, DF defense, and vast physical strength advantage allow him to take it high diff. I see Jozu ploughing through Spider Web and that White Break awakening thing DD does, which is his best of maintaining his distance in a head to head matchup


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## X18999 (Aug 14, 2015)

I'd give this to Doflamingo...


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## Grimm6Jack (Aug 14, 2015)

lol Jozu doesn't have better Haki than Doflamingo...

And even here I see Admiral getting overrated. And people say Mihawk is the most wanked arround here.

Anyway, Doffy should win, I think he was portrayed as above Jozu. He may have way less physical strength and durability but he's faster, has better Haki and also has better DF ability.


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 14, 2015)

It could go either way imo but leaning towards Doffy 51 / 100 times.

They are both one of the strongest high tiers and scratching on  top ( low )  tier


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## Rob (Aug 14, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Jozu high-diff. To this day Jozu has the feat Doflamingo wishes he had and now never will get... actually 1v1ing an Admiral for an extended period of time in a serious combat situation.



I'm a bit rusty, but didn't he clash with Fuji at one point? 

It wasn't an extended fight, but I would put my money on him being able to hold his own for at least a short amount of time.


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## Atlas (Aug 14, 2015)

Couldn't Doffy just stay in the air out of range and overheat him until he dies?


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## Rob (Aug 14, 2015)

So could Rob Lucci


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## Atlas (Aug 14, 2015)

Roƅ said:


> So could Rob Lucci



Lucci>Jozu

This is a game changer.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Aug 15, 2015)

Overheat was blocked easily by Laws sword. Jozu being diamond could probably catch that with his bare hand tbh.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 15, 2015)

Doflamingo lures the fight next to the sea by flying and keeping his distance, parasites Jozu, and dumps him in the water.

GG.


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## convict (Aug 15, 2015)

^Doflamingo has shown the strength to temporarily halt Jozu he has not shown the strength to actually move him.


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## barreltheif (Aug 15, 2015)

convict said:


> ^Doflamingo has shown the strength to temporarily halt Jozu he has not shown the strength to actually move him.




Um, what? Jozu weighs maybe a few tons. Doffy easily has the strength to pick him up and dump him in the ocean. Even preskip Luffy is strong enough to do that.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 15, 2015)

convict said:


> ^Doflamingo has shown the strength to temporarily halt Jozu he has not shown the strength to actually move him.





barreltheif said:


> Um, what? Jozu weighs maybe a few tons. Doffy easily has the strength to pick him up and dump him in the ocean. Even preskip Luffy is strong enough to do that.



^Yep, this is what I meant.


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## barreltheif (Aug 15, 2015)

Set aside Doffy's better performance and portrayal and hype and relevance.

How does Jozu win here? What does Jozu do when Doffy takes to the sky and  surrounds Jozu with awakening? How does Jozu deal with parasite? How does Jozu deal with dark knights parasiting him while he's trying to deal with awakening? How does he even hurt Doffy? By throwing things at him?
I don't see how Jozu has a chance.


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## Imagine (Aug 15, 2015)

He grabs his strings and pummels the hell out of him.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 15, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> Set aside Doffy's better performance and portrayal and hype and relevance.
> 
> How does Jozu win here? What does Jozu do when Doffy takes to the sky.


 
Throws shit to distract/off balance Doflamingo and then jump?



> and  surrounds Jozu with awakening?



Hardening diamond with CoA?



> How does Jozu deal with parasite?



He doesn't.


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## barreltheif (Aug 15, 2015)

Imagine said:


> He grabs his strings and pummels the hell out of him.




You do realize that Doflamingo can let go of his strings? If Jozu grabs his strings, he'll just let go.




IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Throws shit to distract/off balance Doflamingo and then jump?
> Hardening diamond with CoA?
> He doesn't.




Doflamingo can just fly really high and move out of Jozu's trajectory if he tries to jump.
I'm sure Jozu can last against awakening for a while, but there's no way he can just sit there and tank Doffy's strongest attacks indefinitely and take no damage. Eventually he'll lose. He'll run out of CoA, for one thing.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 15, 2015)

Just out of curiosity how does DD actually  hurt Jozu with his strings when Mihawk couldn't even scratch him?


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## barreltheif (Aug 15, 2015)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Just out of curiosity how does DD actually  hurt Jozu with his strings when Mihawk couldn't even scratch him?




The attack Jozu blocked was an air slash from half a mile away. Remember that Mr. 1 blocked one of Mihawk's weaker air slashes, but then got one shotted by a close range attack. Actual attacks with a sword just have much greater cutting power than air slashes. This is not to downplay Jozu's feat. It is very impressive. But Mihawk can definitely hurt Jozu.

Doffy's awakening attacks can also definitely hurt Jozu. They can certainly hurt parts of Jozu's body when they're not in diamond form. They can certainly hurt Jozu when he runs out of CoA. Doffy also has other ways to win, like parasiting Jozu, picking him up, and dumping him in the ocean.


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## Imagine (Aug 15, 2015)

Doflamingo can't match Mihawk's slashes. The air slash Mihawk sent out at Luffy/Daz Bones was much, much smaller than the one he sent out at WB/Jozu. It clearly had less power too. The air slash he sent at WB/Jozu would absolutely decimate Luffy/Daz Bones.

You can't correlate the power of them simply because one is an air slash and the other is a physical one. They obviously vary in power based off on how much effort Mihawk puts into them. If Mihawk wants to he can have the power of an air slash match the power of a physical one.

Doflamingo cannot deal any significant damage to Jozu.


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 15, 2015)

Imagine said:


> Doflamingo can't match Mihawk's slashes. The air slash Mihawk sent out at Luffy/Daz Bones was much, much smaller than the one he sent out at WB/Jozu. It clearly had less power too. The air slash he went at WB/Jozu would absolutely decimate Luffy/Daz Bones.
> You can't correlate the power of them simply because one is an air slash and the is a physical one. They obviously vary in power slash based off on how much effort Mihawk puts into them. If Mihawk wants to he can have the power of an air slash match the power of a physical one.
> Doflamingo cannot deal any significant damage to Jozu.




Obviously, the attack Mr. 1 blocked was weaker than the attack Jozu blocked. I already said that.
Mihawk's stronger physical attacks have much better cutting power than his air slashes from half a mile away.
If you think that Jozu can indefinitely no sell Mihawk's or Doffy's strongest attacks, then you're delusional. At the absolute best, Jozu will last until he runs out of CoA.

You also never explained how Jozu can even get near Doffy (aside from the ridiculous idea of Jozu grabbing Doffy's strings and reeling him in).


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 15, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> Doflamingo can just fly really high and move out of Jozu's trajectory if he tries to jump.
> .



He sure didn't do that against Gear 4 luffy despite bragging about how an air battle would be dangerous with him


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 15, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> He sure didn't do that against Gear 4 luffy despite bragging about how an air battle would be dangerous with him




G4 Luffy can fly.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 15, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> G4 Luffy can fly.



But he doesn't have the same maneuverability that Doffy does. Doffy flew right at the punch and decided to defend instead of dodge.


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 15, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> But he doesn't have the same maneuverability that Doffy does. Doffy flew right at the punch and decided to defend instead of dodge.




Luffy has insane speed, flight, and huge range. Doffy is maybe a little better in the air than Luffy. I'm not sure. Jozu can't even fly and has zero range. Pretty gigantic difference.


----------



## Yuki (Aug 15, 2015)

Brings up feat of uncuttable guy tanking cutting attack. Says Jozu can no sell any attack lower than that level.


----------



## Kaiser (Aug 15, 2015)

How exactly does Doflamingo even win when Jozu has

- Better attack power
- Better durability
- Better armament
- Better combat speed

The only thing Doffy has over Jozu is range but it won't matter since Jozu could use it against him


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Aug 15, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> The attack Jozu blocked was an air slash from half a mile away. Remember that Mr. 1 blocked one of Mihawk's weaker air slashes, but then got one shotted by a close range attack. Actual attacks with a sword just have much greater cutting power than air slashes. This is not to downplay Jozu's feat. It is very impressive. But Mihawk can definitely hurt Jozu.
> 
> Doffy's awakening attacks can also definitely hurt Jozu. They can certainly hurt parts of Jozu's body when they're not in diamond form. They can certainly hurt Jozu when he runs out of CoA. Doffy also has other ways to win, like parasiting Jozu, picking him up, and dumping him in the ocean.



That can't translate to DD being able to cut Jozu though especially when Mihawks air slashes do more damage than DD's strings actually do at close range. You also can't assume Jozu's CoA would run out before for DD's and I went back to the scene where DD parasited Jozu if you look at Jozu expression it implies he was not expecting that from DD and lastly DD could not even make Jozu budge heck he could hardly move base Luffy move  foward so Its seems that even though one can't break out of parasite they can still resist it or change form while under the effects.


----------



## Yuki (Aug 15, 2015)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> That can't translate to DD being able to cut Jozu though especially when Mihawks air slashes do more damage than DD's strings actually do at close range. You also can't assume Jozu's CoA would run out before for DD's and I went back to the scene where DD parasited Jozu if you look at Jozu expression it implies he was not expecting that from DD and lastly DD could not even make Jozu budge heck he could hardly move base Luffy move  foward so Its seems that even though one can't break out of parasite they can still resist it or change form while under the effects.



...

1. He did not try to move Jozu.

2. He was making Luffy walk forward slowly, when he was making Luffy move Luffy was literally out of it from DDs attack...


----------



## Jossaff (Aug 15, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> How exactly does Doflamingo even win when Jozu has
> 
> - Better attack power


-Failed to 1-shot Crocodile 


Kaiser said:


> - Better durability


-got 1 shot by Aokiji while DD broke free from Aokiji's ice


Kaiser said:


> - Better armament



Same as above , other than that is pure speculation


Kaiser said:


> - Better combat speed


- lol , which manga are you reading ?



Kaiser said:


> The only thing Doffy has over Jozu is range but it won't matter since Jozu could use it against him



How ?, when all he showed in war was 1 lame attack and being unable to get rid of parasyte.


----------



## Freechoice (Aug 15, 2015)

Doflamingo is wholly unimpressive


----------



## Tenma (Aug 16, 2015)

Lol at Jozu having better armament, dude hasn't shown hardening, much less at DD's level.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 16, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Lol at Jozu having better armament, dude hasn't shown hardening, much less at DD's level.



No one at the war showed hardening. It wasn't a thing yet (haki was though)


----------



## RileyD (Aug 16, 2015)

Jozu got fodderized with both arms, gets fodderized again with one arm. Especially since this is post-TS dofla vs pre-TS joz increasing the differential slightly.


----------



## J★J♥ (Aug 16, 2015)

Doflamingo had to be nerfed at his worst with pis and him not using his basic skills whole fight for Luffy+Law + all Gladiators to stand a chance against him. 

Because of that Idiots will underrate him forever. He stomps with flick of his fingers.


----------



## RileyD (Aug 16, 2015)

J★J♥ said:


> Doflamingo had to be nerfed at his worst with pis and him not using his basic skills whole fight for Luffy+Law + all Gladiators to stand a chance against him.
> 
> Because of that Idiots will underrate him forever. He stomps with flick of his fingers.




Luffy proved Parasite is nothing to him directly, so the "nerf" you are talking about is irrelevant, Law can escape from Parasite as well.
Pre-ts luffy dodged the telegraphed "world's strongest slash", those large moves, like Overheat and g3 are easy for people to dodge.
Luffy in g2 dodged doffy's awakening, so it giving him trouble in g4 is PIS.


Luffy has been nerfed ever since the time skip with the way he holds back and still makes dumb mistakes for lol plot:

Luffy is substantially faster than Doflamingo, as seen from the way he intercepted his bloodlusted attack against Kyros and several other speed feats, but due to the need for a "fair fight", speed advantage is always nullified if it is in Luffy's favour.

He has CoO to know an opponents status and still he underestimates Doflamingo's endurance, messes around in G4 thinking he beat Doflamingo only to find that the birdcage is still up. (PURE PIS to allow for the 20 chapters of birdcage nonsense stalling for luffy to recharge his haki)

Using G4 he aims to hit people miles across rather than straight down, which both slows his follow up attacks and reduces the damage from the impact. A bloodlusted, non PIS luffy would attack his opponents while they are down and kill them fairly easily, PIS luffy has opponents tanking attacks that should kill them because they are "blunt damage".


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Aug 16, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> But he doesn't have the same maneuverability that Doffy does. Doffy flew right at the punch and decided to defend instead of dodge.



It's actually better... That technique Luffy is using is similar, if not outright the Geppou from the Rokushiki, he was so proficient at it that he outright blitzed Doflamingo while doing it and right after it drop kicked him in the face.

Doffy thought he had the advantage because of his awakening strings.


----------



## Bohemian Knight (Aug 16, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Lol at Jozu having better armament, dude hasn't shown hardening, much less at DD's level.



Whitebeard, Akainu, Kuzan, Kizaru, Sengoku, Rayleigh, and & Marco have not shown hardening.

Their Haki is all vastly superior to Doflamingo's. Jesus man


----------



## MYJC (Aug 16, 2015)

Doffy high-diffs. 

He's just overall better. Jozu may have the advantage in defense and pure brute strength, but Doffy wins in every other category (speed, haki, versatility, agility, etc.). Jozu gives him a good fight but goes down once Doffy uses his awakening.


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## blueframe01 (Aug 16, 2015)

Jozu high diff. 
Jozu fought against an admiral equally for a while and only went down when he got distracted. 
None of Doffy's feats comes close to that.


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## Yuki (Aug 16, 2015)

blueframe01 said:


> Jozu high diff.
> Jozu fought against an admiral equally for a while and only went down when he got distracted.
> None of Doffy's feats comes close to that.



Can you show me panels of him fighting equally with an admiral please?

All i saw was him sneak attacking Kuzan when Kuzan was trying to fight WB.


----------



## Ghost (Aug 16, 2015)

This undeserved Jozu wank is terrifying.


----------



## Tenma (Aug 18, 2015)

What's stopping DD from distracting Jozu with clones/Awakening while flying around an then Parasiting him?



Bohemian Knight said:


> Whitebeard, Akainu, Kuzan, Kizaru, Sengoku, Rayleigh, and & Marco have not shown hardening.
> 
> Their Haki is all vastly superior to Doflamingo's. Jesus man



A safe assumption for some of the above. But there's absolutely no reason to believe Jozu has better Haki than DD unless you already have a preconceived notion of him being on a different level.


----------



## Akitō (Aug 18, 2015)

We'll get a better idea once we see G4 Luffy's limit, but for now I'll just say it's 50/50. These two are definitely close and are at the lower end of the top-tier IMO.


----------



## Quipchaque (Aug 18, 2015)

Tenma said:


> What's stopping DD from distracting Jozu with clones/Awakening while flying around an then Parasiting him?
> 
> 
> 
> A safe assumption for some of the above. *But there's absolutely no reason to believe Jozu has better Haki than DD* unless you already have a preconceived notion of him being on a different level.



Even so the latter stalemated in a haki-clash with Luffy (who we know has horrible armament haki stats)? If I compare that to a guy whose theme revolves around strength and incredible defense I?d say it?s all but confirmed that Jozu has far superior haki to Dofla even so he is weaker.


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## Turrin (Aug 18, 2015)

Jozu wins hands down. People play up the fact that DD got Jozu with Parasite, but anyone can get caught off guard by an unknown hax DF ability; case and point Ceaser stomping Luffy with his oxygen trick; when Luffy was shown to be eons above him in DR. Additionally the next time we see Jozu he's totally fine, so he probably just muscled his way out or use CoA to break free once he realized the nature of DD's attack.

When comparing them feat wise, DD literally can't beat Jozu. Jozu took Mihawk's slash w/o a even a scratch. And this was an attack meant for WB, so I doubt Mihawk was pulling his punchs, albeit it was a range slash which we know is weaker, but still such an attack is beyond what DD is capable off, and still couldn't harm Jozu, so DD really can't do shit to put Jozu down. As far as Jozu putting DD down goes, he should be able to keep up with DD since he could keep up with Admirals. He has one of the best strength feats in the manga with his Iceburg Toss and has his DF as well as CoA to enhance his striking power on top of it, so he should have no problem damaging DD, despite DD's durability. The best DD could do is hold out for awhile like he did against G4-Luffy, but utlimately since Jozu has no cool down time on his skills, DD stands no chance will at most give Jozu Mid-Diff.

Beyond feats in terms of hype Jozu was competing against Admirals, who can now clearly be understood to be beyond DD in strength, by virtue of the very simple fact that DD was defeated before Luffy or any of the SH's got a chance to even make an Admiral get serious against them. Though I suppose there is still a chance that Zoro could fight a serious Fujitora at the end of the Arc, here, but I very much doubt it.


----------



## Kaiser (Aug 18, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Lol at Jozu having better armament, dude hasn't shown hardening, much less at DD's level.


Hardening wasn't shown preskip, so flawed logic. Jozu could bypass Admirals haki and could tank Mihawk's slash(yes i know he was in diamond form, but haki most likely played a role too). On the other side, Doflamingo couldn't protect himself from Law's sharp blade



Turrin said:


> Jozu wins hands down. People play up the fact that DD got Jozu with Parasite, but anyone can get caught off guard by an unknown hax DF ability; case and point Ceaser stomping Luffy with his oxygen trick; when Luffy was shown to be eons above him in DR. Additionally the next time we see Jozu he's totally fine, so he probably just muscled his way out or use CoA to break free once he realized the nature of DD's attack.
> 
> When comparing them feat wise, DD literally can't beat Jozu. Jozu took Mihawk's slash w/o a even a scratch. And this was an attack meant for WB, so I doubt Mihawk was pulling his punchs, albeit it was a range slash which we know is weaker, but still such an attack is beyond what DD is capable off, and still couldn't harm Jozu, so DD really can't do shit to put Jozu down. As far as Jozu putting DD down goes, he should be able to keep up with DD since he could keep up with Admirals. He has one of the best strength feats in the manga with his Iceburg Toss and has his DF as well as CoA to enhance his striking power on top of it, so he should have no problem damaging DD, despite DD's durability. The best DD could do is hold out for awhile like he did against G4-Luffy, but utlimately since Jozu has no cool down time on his skills, DD stands no chance will at most give Jozu Mid-Diff.
> 
> Beyond feats in terms of hype Jozu was competing against Admirals, who can now clearly be understood to be beyond DD in strength, by virtue of the very simple fact that DD was defeated before Luffy or any of the SH's got a chance to even make an Admiral get serious against them. Though I suppose there is still a chance that Zoro could fight a serious Fujitora at the end of the Arc, here, but I very much doubt it.


You summed it up perfectly


----------



## Yuki (Aug 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Jozu took Mihawk's slash w/o a even a scratch.



A diamond that cannot be scratched took a cutting attack without a scratch?

Oh my, much wow such feat.

The reason Jozu probably even had that DF was to take that stupid attack. >_> 

DD can fly, makes clones, stitch him self back together, turn everything around him into strings.

DD has 101 feats...

Jozu had fking 3. *THREE*.

Can Crocodile sake a serious DD attack? Fk no!


----------



## Kaiser (Aug 18, 2015)

^Why does it matter when Doflamingo's most powerful attacks are cutting attacks much weaker than that slash?


----------



## Yuki (Aug 18, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> ^Why does it matter when Doflamingo's most powerful attacks are cutting attacks much weaker than that slash?



DD strings him up and drops him into the water.

DD raps the Strings all around Jozu and crush's Jozu's diamond body with force.

There are plenty of ways for DD to hurt/win this fight. 

However, Jozu has nothing to deal with DD.


----------



## Tenma (Aug 18, 2015)

DD has a fair number of attacks dedicated to crushing Jozu being made of diamond doesn't matter that much. He can also just kick his face in.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Even so the latter stalemated in a haki-clash with Luffy (who we know has horrible armament haki stats)? If I compare that to a guy whose theme revolves around strength and incredible defense I?d say it?s all but confirmed that Jozu has far superior haki to Dofla even so he is weaker.



DD obviously had far better armament than Luffy (no-selling a Bazooka to the recently gamma-knifed chest). That was a CoC clash, not a CoA clash.

And Luffy obviously had a high level of COA mastery to the point he could manipulate it to create G4.



> Hardening wasn't shown preskip, so flawed logic. Jozu could bypass Admirals haki and could tank Mihawk's slash(yes i know he was in diamond form, but haki most likely played a role too). On the other side, Doflamingo couldn't protect himself from Law's sharp blade



Jozu being made of diamond pretty much had everything to do with it. You are comparing the resistance to cutting attacks of a fleshy dude and a diamond guy, of course there's not going to be a contest. It's silly to compare Haki like this.

As for hitting logias yeah of course you can do that if you have Haki. Unless you literally don't think people like the M3 or DD can touch the C3 for some reason.


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 18, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> ^Why does it matter when Doflamingo's most powerful attacks are cutting attacks much weaker than that slash?




First, it's extremely, extremely unlikely that Doflamingo's strongest awakening attacks are "much weaker" than an air slash from half a mile away. Unless you think that Mihawk is just light years above Doflamingo, you're basically guaranteed to be wrong about this.

Second, even if Doflamingo's strongest attacks are weaker, Jozu will eventually run of CoA, and then Doffy can start to do damage. Jozu also doesn't keep his whole body in diamond form all the time, so Doffy can attack him then.

Third, even if somehow Doffy can never break Jozu's defense, he can still parasite him, pick him up, and drop him in the ocean.

Fourth, Doffy has flight and tons of powerful ranged attacks. Jozu has neither flight nor range. He has basically no way of even touching Doffy, and no real hope of winning.


----------



## Quipchaque (Aug 18, 2015)

Tenma said:


> DD obviously had far better armament than Luffy (no-selling a Bazooka to the recently gamma-knifed chest). That was a CoC clash, not a CoA clash.
> 
> And Luffy obviously had a high level of COA mastery to the point he could manipulate it to create G4.




Far better? Come now he did just as much damage to Luffy as vice versa meaning their damage output and protection must be pretty close. Also at one point they clashed with armament hakis as well which ended in a stalemate. Not to mention that Doflamingo has been pressured by Sanji?s DJ that Vergo could take with minimum damage _without_ hardening.

And since you mention Luffy?s haki. Luffy flat-out confirmed that his haki is weak when up against Hody and so far there is notthing contradicting that. And creating gear 4 has nothing to do with armament mastery. It?s literally just fullbody haki combined with gear 3. Keep in mind Rayleigh told us that Luffy took 1.5 years to learn the BASICS of armament haki. That should be pretty telling if you ask me. I mean you cannot possibly believe this is hinting at him being GOOD at armament if it takes him this long to learn it at all?


----------



## Yuki (Aug 18, 2015)

I love how people say that DD would mid dif none G4 Luffy.

Then when it comes vs other people the DD downplay begins and. "His CoA was as weak as Luffy's." ect ect. 

Omg just no winning.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 18, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> A diamond that cannot be scratched took a cutting attack without a scratch?
> 
> Oh my, much wow such feat.
> 
> ...



All of DD's strongest attacks are piercing attacks. 




Juvia. said:


> DD strings him up and drops him into the water.
> 
> DD raps the Strings all around Jozu and crush's Jozu's diamond body with force.
> 
> ...


DD has no feats, and I mean absolutely no feats that would indicate his strings can crush Jozu's Diamond + CoA body. 

And what water is his tossing him into, in the middle of Dress Rosa.


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## barreltheif (Aug 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> And what water is his tossing him into, in the middle of Dress Rosa.




The ocean. Dressrosa is an island.




Juvia. said:


> I love how people say that DD would mid dif none G4 Luffy.




Non-G4 Luffy isn't pushing Doffy to mid diff. Luffy loses immediately to parasite and immediately to awakening.


----------



## Quuon (Aug 18, 2015)

He didn't lose immediately to Doflamingo when he broke out awakening for the first time, Barrel.


----------



## Yuki (Aug 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> All of DD's strongest attacks are piercing attacks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Emm ever heard of birdcage?

You know, the thing that was either slicing or crushing everything and took everything everyone on the island had just to stop it in it's tracks? Yeaaa....


----------



## GrizzlyClaws (Aug 18, 2015)

I question the usefulness of Birdcage in a combat scenario like this. Birdcage shrinking and closing in further and further will inevitably hurt Doffy too, seeing as he will be inside it fighting Jozu, and since Jozu unquestionably can take it better than Doffy, Birdcage would just result in Doffy committing suicide.

Yeah, Birdcage was bullshit the moment Oda decided to introduce it.


----------



## Yuki (Aug 18, 2015)

GrizzlyClaws said:


> I question the usefulness of Birdcage in a combat scenario like this. Birdcage shrinking and closing in further and further will inevitably hurt Doffy too, seeing as he will be inside it fighting Jozu, and since Jozu unquestionably can take it better than Doffy, Birdcage would just result in Doffy committing suicide.
> 
> Yeah, Birdcage was bullshit the moment Oda decided to introduce it.



The Birdcage was still just strings.

I did not mean he would use it. But if he wanted to, he could.

Just create a little string cloud, and make the clone use birdcage while DD sits just outside of it. Then all he has to do is wait for the Birdcage to crush Jozu. He can do this, because Jozu has no way to do anything to DD while in the air.

And no, Birdcage would not cut up DD, their his Strings ffs.


----------



## Pocalypse (Aug 18, 2015)

Funny how people say Doflamingo has no feats and they hype up Jozu as the next best thing to happen in this series when the manga has already shown who was the boss (Dofla) and who was the bitch (Jozu) in Marineford. What's even more funnier? Parasite was just a single part of Doflamingo's arsenal, he has shit load of other variety that can handle Jozu.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 18, 2015)

^DD is immune to his own strings now?


----------



## Yuki (Aug 18, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> ^DD is immune to his own strings now?



Have we ever saw his own Strings do anything to him?

Does Sabo's fire burn him?

Does Kuzan's ice freeze him?

C'mon now...


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 18, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Have we ever saw his own Strings do anything to him?
> 
> Does Sabo's fire burn him?
> 
> ...



I don't recall DD ever hitting himself with his strings.

And logias and paramecias are not the same thing. Of course sabos fire is not going to hurt fire which is what his body is.made.of.

DD'S body is not made of strings.


----------



## Yuki (Aug 18, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I don't recall DD ever hitting himself with his strings.
> 
> And logias and paramecias are not the same thing. Of course sabos fire is not going to hurt fire which is what his body is.made.of.
> 
> DD'S body is not made of strings.



We have never seen a single DF eater hurt them selves with their DFs. 

I am not just going to assume it starts now. >_>


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 18, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> We have never seen a single DF eater hurt them selves with their DFs.
> 
> I am not just going to assume it starts now. >_>



Foxy slowed himself down accidentally with his noro noro beam


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 18, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> We have never seen a single DF eater hurt them selves with their DFs.
> 
> I am not just going to assume it starts now. >_>



Remind me when a Devil Fruit user ever attempted to hurt themselves, or said devil fruit users attack was sent back at him?

 But whatever believe what you want it's not really important. If whitebeard can quake himself in the face and feel nothing whatever.


----------



## Yuki (Aug 18, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Foxy slowed himself down accidentally with his noro noro beam



O_O He did.

Well then i stand corrected. 

But i did not mean DDs strings cannot cut him. I meant he would not LET them. As in, he can stop that from happening.


----------



## barreltheif (Aug 18, 2015)

Quuon said:


> He didn't lose immediately to Doflamingo when he broke out awakening for the first time, Barrel.




He used basic awakening and it hit Luffy and pierced him and looked like it hurt him pretty badly. Then Doffy used Everwhite, Luffy blocked with hardening, and it still pierced Luffy and hurt him pretty badly. Then Doffy used parasite and Luffy had to use G4 or he would've lost.
And this was a Doffy who had just been hit by an unguarded Red Hawk, an unguarded Injection Shot that put a hole through Doffy, an unguarded Gamma Knife that shredded his organs, and who had then been beaten up by G4 for 20 minutes.
Luffy isn't giving Doffy mid diff without G4.




Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> ^DD is immune to his own strings now?





GrizzlyClaws said:


> I question the usefulness of Birdcage in a combat scenario like this. Birdcage shrinking and closing in further and further will inevitably hurt Doffy too, seeing as he will be inside it fighting Jozu, and since Jozu unquestionably can take it better than Doffy, Birdcage would just result in Doffy committing suicide.
> Yeah, Birdcage was bullshit the moment Oda decided to introduce it.




Doffy can just sit outside of birdcage while his clone makes it. Or he can create it around himself and make a hole and escape through it. Of course, this would be OoC, but he can do it if he wants.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 18, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> O_O He did.
> 
> Well then i stand corrected.
> 
> But i did not mean DDs strings cannot cut him. I meant he would not LET them. As in, he can stop that from happening.




Welp, it's not like we know the intricacies of how his cage works. I mean he used it back in the winter island in the flash back. It's vague af.


----------



## Pocalypse (Aug 18, 2015)

Not to mention Dofla can control Jozu by using his Parasite when Birdcage is used. If I remember he had a wide AoE with it when he started controlling multiple people with Parasite when Birdcage was used. So Jozu really has no escape plan when DD uses Birdcage, yeah Dofla will be inside but he'll Parasite Jozu on the spot with Birdcage.


----------



## Yuki (Aug 18, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Welp, it's not like we know the intricacies of how his cage works. I mean he used it back in the winter island in the flash back. It's vague af.



Even so, DD can control his strings, the changes of him not being able to move or bend the Strings of his birdcage is pretty much 0.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 18, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


> Not to mention Dofla can control Jozu by using his Parasite when Birdcage is used. If I remember he had a wide AoE with it when he started controlling multiple people with Parasite when Birdcage was used. So Jozu really has no escape plan when DD uses Birdcage, yeah Dofla will be inside but he'll Parasite Jozu on the spot with Birdcage.



Jozu can go to his diamond form though.... the kairoseki factory was not cut by hit.


----------



## Yuki (Aug 18, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Jozu can go to his diamond form though.... the kairoseki factory was not cut by hit.



I don't mean cut.

Once the birdcage gets too small Jozu will start to get pushed from all sides. The force of which will crush him completely.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 18, 2015)

I'm sure Dofla can escape his own Birdcage unless everyone thinks he was planning to commit suicide when he used it in Dresrossa


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 18, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


> I'm sure Dofla can escape his own Birdcage unless everyone thinks he was planning to commit suicide when he used it in Dresrossa



Well... he might've had to considering Kaido was going to come for his head anyway


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 18, 2015)

Dofla with easy.


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## Tenma (Aug 18, 2015)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Far better? Come now he did just as much damage to Luffy as vice versa meaning their damage output and protection must be pretty close. Also at one point they clashed with armament hakis as well which ended in a stalemate. Not to mention that Doflamingo has been pressured by Sanji?s DJ that Vergo could take with minimum damage _without_ hardening.
> 
> And since you mention Luffy?s haki. Luffy flat-out confirmed that his haki is weak when up against Hody and so far there is notthing contradicting that. And creating gear 4 has nothing to do with armament mastery. It?s literally just fullbody haki combined with gear 3. Keep in mind Rayleigh told us that Luffy took 1.5 years to learn the BASICS of armament haki. That should be pretty telling if you ask me. I mean you cannot possibly believe this is hinting at him being GOOD at armament if it takes him this long to learn it at all?



Dude DD didn't even use armament and suffered like a scuff or 2 from DJ. Them.proceeded to a rapid fire DJ (which Vergo never handled) with his fucking coat, again without using armament (he also blocked a Jet Gatling like this).

Luffy as you said got pierced by Hody (though IIRC he did block DD's strings). DD's obviously better by a distance


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## Bohemian Knight (Aug 18, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


> Not to mention Dofla can control Jozu by using his Parasite when Birdcage is used. If I remember he had a wide AoE with it when he started controlling multiple people with Parasite when Birdcage was used. So Jozu really has no escape plan when DD uses Birdcage, yeah Dofla will be inside but he'll Parasite Jozu on the spot with Birdcage.



Doflamingo has not shown the capacity to successfully use parasite on a healthy opponent in a 1v1 that is on his general level. He also was not shown to be able to do any more than restrict Jozu's movements with parasite


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## NO (Aug 18, 2015)

Bohemian Knight said:


> Doflamingo has not shown the capacity to successfully use parasite on a healthy opponent in a 1v1 that is on his general level.


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## Atlas (Aug 19, 2015)

jayjay?? said:


>



Let us also note that Jozu knew he was there the page before this one.


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## NUMBA1TROLL (Aug 19, 2015)

Doflamingo is a boss. Jozu is a scrub.

Boss > scrub


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## trance (Aug 19, 2015)

Jozu high difficulty.


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## Yuki (Aug 19, 2015)

trance said:


> Jozu high difficulty.



How is that?


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## Quipchaque (Aug 19, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Dude DD didn't even use armament and suffered like a scuff or 2 from DJ. Them.proceeded to a rapid fire DJ (which Vergo never handled) with his fucking coat, again without using armament (he also blocked a Jet Gatling like this).
> 
> Luffy as you said got pierced by Hody (though IIRC he did block DD's strings). DD's obviously better by a distance



oh come on stop this stupid wank now. Just because Doflamingo?s body durability and/or haki is at least good enough to block DJ doesn?t mean he?s an expert haki-user since Sanji?s normal DJ is weak as fuck. And mind telling me what makes you think that the rapid fire DJ is sooo much different from a normal DJ? It?s literally just a repeated DJ and Doflamingo blocked it with his haki ,yet could barely handle it. That?s embarrasing to say the least. And lol at the jet gatling-argument. Doflamingo mocked Luffy for the strength of this attack, nuff said.

No Doflamingo is not better by a distance at all. In fact I guarantee you his basic slice is way weaker than Hody?s bite. _Arlong_ could casually bite through _cannonballs_ and Hody is hundreds of times stronger than that. How in the world could a simple string sweep that merely scratches Sanji be comparable to a bite with such power? Also no Luffy did not block Doffy?s strings. He bleeded everytime Doffy hit him.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 19, 2015)

Btw the people that say that DD doesn't have offensive power remember that he cut Fuji's meteor with an unnamed attack, casually too?


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## Coruscation (Aug 19, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Dude DD didn't even use armament and suffered like a scuff or 2 from DJ. Them.proceeded to a rapid fire DJ (which Vergo never handled) with his fucking coat, again without using armament (he also blocked a Jet Gatling like this).
> 
> Luffy as you said got pierced by Hody (though IIRC he did block DD's strings). DD's obviously better by a distance



He used Hardening to block Jet Gatling. He most likely used invisible COA to block Spectre unless you think his feather coat is flame retardant. Which would be a pretty illogical conclusion to choose when there is a power that we know he has and that is invisible to the eye but protects a material from hazardous materials, such as fire.


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## Bohemian Knight (Aug 19, 2015)

jayjay?? said:


>



Oh. I did't realize that Jozu was hitting Doflamingo with those Brilliant Punks... oh wait, he wasn't. That doesn't qualify your argument. I want a panel of DD using parasite against a healthy opponent, not somebody else's opponent


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## Yuki (Aug 19, 2015)

Bohemian Knight said:


> Oh. I did't realize that Jozu was hitting Doflamingo with those Brilliant Punks... oh wait, he wasn't. That doesn't qualify your argument. I want a panel of DD using parasite against a healthy opponent, not somebody else's opponent





There you go. .


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## Bohemian Knight (Aug 19, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> There you go. .



That's better, since it's actually a valid example. Sanji definitely isn't on Doflamingo's level, considering he was getting absolutely nowhere some of his stronger shown techniques against a Doflamingo that was hardly showing anything. Nevertheless, this instance demonstrates how crucial knowledge against Doflamingo is when it comes to parasite


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## Yuki (Aug 19, 2015)

Bohemian Knight said:


> That's better, since it's actually a valid example. Sanji definitely isn't on Doflamingo's level, considering he was getting absolutely nowhere some of his stronger shown techniques against a Doflamingo that was hardly showing anything. Nevertheless, this instance demonstrates how crucial knowledge against Doflamingo is when it comes to parasite



It really is, all DD has to do is create a clone and then blind side him to get parasite off.

DD has way too many feats. He is not losing to Jozu who has 3.


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## Tenma (Aug 19, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> He used Hardening to block Jet Gatling. He most likely used invisible COA to block Spectre unless you think his feather coat is flame retardant. Which would be a pretty illogical conclusion to choose when there is a power that we know he has and that is invisible to the eye but protects a material from hazardous materials, such as fire.



That was my point. His invisible CoA is enough to handle DJ Spectre.


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## Tenma (Aug 19, 2015)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> oh come on stop this stupid wank now. Just because Doflamingo?s body durability and/or haki is at least good enough to block DJ doesn?t mean he?s an expert haki-user since Sanji?s normal DJ is weak as fuck. And mind telling me what makes you think that the rapid fire DJ is sooo much different from a normal DJ? It?s literally just a repeated DJ and Doflamingo blocked it with his haki ,yet could barely handle it. That?s embarrasing to say the least. And lol at the jet gatling-argument. Doflamingo mocked Luffy for the strength of this attack, nuff said.
> 
> No Doflamingo is not better by a distance at all. In fact I guarantee you his basic slice is way weaker than Hody?s bite. _Arlong_ could casually bite through _cannonballs_ and Hody is hundreds of times stronger than that. How in the world could a simple string sweep that merely scratches Sanji be comparable to a bite with such power? Also no Luffy did not block Doffy?s strings. He bleeded everytime Doffy hit him.



You compared Vergo's performance to DD and DD's is clearly better.

'Barely handled it'...sure, after you have seen all the stuff DD can take that Spectre was going to be the death of him even though he was blocking with his coat, smiling and not even using hardening. Blocking 1 DJ is easier than blocking several dozen in rapid succession, this is common fucking sense.

And obviously COA was involved when blocking DJ, DD always imbues Haki into his defenses. DD mocked Jet Gatling/Bazooka as it was nothing to him. Shows just how ahead of Luffy he was prior to G4.

Well, Law blocked it barehanded and so I'm guessing you suddenly think DD has worse COA than Law for some reason.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 20, 2015)

Tenma said:


> You compared Vergo's performance to DD and DD's is clearly better.
> 
> 'Barely handled it'...sure, after you have seen all the stuff DD can take that Spectre was going to be the death of him even though he was blocking with his coat, smiling and not even using hardening. Blocking 1 DJ is easier than blocking several dozen in rapid succession, this is common fucking sense.
> 
> ...



Yes DD is clearly better than Vergo but not in armament haki that should be fairly obvious.

"after you have seen all that stuff DD can take" that?s completely irrelevant. Doflamingo has great endurance I never argued against that and his haki might help him to take a lot of damage but that isn?t really telling us anything since even average haki can give you decent damage soak abilities. Just look at Zoro he didn?t even have a little dip of haki pre-skip yet he could take insane amounts of punishment. Now even if you add Luffy?s "weak" haki to that his endurance would still increase greatly. Same thing with Doflamingo. Most of his endurance and durability stem from his natural body. His haki is just there to make sure that he doesn?t suddenly become a glass cannon against high level attacks.

Blocking a singular DJ is only easier cause it doesn?t wear you down. The damage output will still be the same even when the attack is repeated rapdily, only difference is that you need to uphold your defense for longer periods of time and that will cause your haki to break sooner or later. And either way the only thing that matters in the Doflamingo/ Sanji interaction is Doflamingo?s reaction to DJ Spectre and that reaction certainly didn?t scream "yo look I?m the haki-pro". 

Being ahead of G2 Luffy means basically nothing cause everyone and his mother blocked G2 by now.

I?m not sure what you refer to when saying Law blocked "it" but regardless I can say with certainty yes, Law?s haki is stronger than Doflamingo?s. This is again fairly obvious given that he could overpower the likes of Vergo and that Doflamingo didn?t dare to block Law?s DF attacks with haki cause he knew that If Vergo can?t block Law then he won?t be able to either. Can you guess why that is? I?m sure you can.

And if you can?t then all I can say is that you should check your eyes and take a closer look at Doflamingo?s portrayal. We?ve never once seen Doflamingo successfully block a high level attack with haki nor has he ever been confident that he could. Instead whenever it mattered he opted to use his devil fruit or dodged as if he knew that his hardening would be useless. That?s completely different portrayal to the likes of Zoro, Law, Vergo or Pica who are all confident or hyped as fuck in haki-usage.


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## NO (Aug 20, 2015)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yes DD is clearly better than Vergo but not in armament haki that should be fairly obvious.



Law cuts through Vergo's CoA.

Law doesn't cut through DD's CoA.

CoA: DD > Law > Vergo/Pica​This is basic trigonometry. 

Also, just because someone isn't defending a high-level attack with CoA, it doesn't mean anything. CoA is a limited resource that can be used offensively and defensively. It needs to be used effectively in battle because there's only so much of it a person can use.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 20, 2015)

jayjay?? said:


> Law cuts through Vergo's CoA.
> 
> Law doesn't cut through DD's CoA.
> 
> ...



Some things need to be considered here... Law didn't cut Smoker's jitte (on which he was using invisible CoA).

Yet, I don't feel Smoker's invisible CoA is better than Vergo's black haki

Doflamingo was cut and shambles'd by Law too. 


It's not cut and dry and depends on how powerful the attack is in comparison to the haki.


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 20, 2015)

Jozu mid diffs


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## NO (Aug 21, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Some things need to be considered here... Law didn't cut Smoker's jitte (on which he was using invisible CoA).
> 
> Yet, I don't feel Smoker's invisible CoA is better than Vergo's black haki
> 
> ...


CoA isn't clear. During Zoro vs. Pica, when Pica pulled out his hardening and claimed that Zoro was going to lose against it, Zoro said that would only happen if Pica's CoA was superior to Zoro's, like the strength of Zoro's slashes were insignificant by comparison.

It's almost as if physical power didn't matter in that situation, according to Pica/Zoro.


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## barreltheif (Aug 21, 2015)

jayjay?? said:


> CoA isn't clear. During Zoro vs. Pica, when Pica pulled out his hardening and claimed that Zoro was going to lose against it, Zoro said that would only happen if Pica's CoA was superior to Zoro's, like the strength of Zoro's slashes were insignificant by comparison.
> 
> It's almost as if physical power didn't matter in that situation, according to Pica/Zoro.




Zoro said that Pica could be invulnerable to his attacks *only *if Pica's CoA were stronger. Zoro didn't say that this would be *sufficient* for Pica to be invulnerable.


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