# Akainu vs Sengoku



## Amol (Mar 22, 2015)

Location : MF
Intel : None
Mindset : To kill
*Scenario 1* :
Pre Skip Akainu vs Prime Sengoku
*Scenario 2* :
Pre skip Akainu vs MF Sengoku 
State difficulty level in *linear scale* of 0 to 100 where 100 means equal and extreme diff .


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## Amol (Mar 22, 2015)

It seems I made someone butthurt but this thread is really normal for that


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## Sherlōck (Mar 22, 2015)

> Scenario 1 :
> Pre Skip Akainu vs Prime Sengoku



Akainu High-extreme difficulty.



> Scenario 2 :
> Pre skip Akainu vs MF Sengoku



Akainu high difficulty.



> Scenario 3 :
> Post skip Akainu vs Prime Sengoku



Akainu high difficulty.


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## Bernkastel (Mar 22, 2015)

Scenario 1: Prime Sengoku wins with very high diff. somewhere between 90-95.

Scenario 2: Akainu wins with very high diff.Again somewhere between 90-95.


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## Pirao (Mar 22, 2015)

Prime Sengoku vs Akainu can go either way. MF Akainu vs MF Sengoku, Akainu high-diff.


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## Luke (Mar 22, 2015)

Akainu beats Prime Sengoku with extreme difficulty, and beats MF Sengoku with high difficulty.


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## Turrin (Mar 22, 2015)

I think it's fairly safe to say that Sengoku's gen were stronger than Akainu's. So I'd consider Prime-Sengoku stronger, as for what diff he faces, i'm not sure. Old-Sengoku would probably loose to Akainu though, but give him a considerable amount of difficulty.


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## Ghost (Mar 22, 2015)

Scenario 1: Akainu extreme diff
Scenario 2: Akainu high diff


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Mar 22, 2015)

Sengoku sucks he couldn't even hurt Luffy preskip despite getting a free hit on fuusen

If Akainu was guarding the execution platform, Luffy would have a hole in his gut and be dead


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## Gohara (Mar 22, 2015)

I consider Marineford Sengoku to be Prime Sengoku, so:

1. Sengoku wins with around mid difficulty.  Maybe mid to high (closer to mid than high) difficulty.

2. A fight between Pre Time Skip Akainu and Old Sengoku can go either way, but if I have to choose I lean towards Sengoku winning with high to extremely high difficulty.

Prime Sengoku => End Of Series Akainu > Current Akainu > Old Sengoku => Pre Time Skip Akainu IMO.


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## Ruse (Mar 22, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Prime Sengoku vs Akainu can go either way. MF Akainu vs MF Sengoku, Akainu high-diff.



Going with this


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## Turrin (Mar 22, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Sengoku suck


You do realize to be FA you need to be an Admiral first right. Not to mention Sengoku was an Admiral during a much more dangerous era than the one the color trio had to deal with, considering Roger and Prime-WB were running around. So at Sengoku's best he is at least qualified for Admiral, if not stronger than most other Admirals.

At his worst, when old and out of shape in Marine-Ford, he was still comfortably fighting off the entire BB crew, post-gura.



> s he couldn't even hurt Luffy preskip despite getting a free hit on fuusen


Come on now. Sengoku throw a single casual punch in his Buddha form and easily overpowered Luffy's Gear-Stacked Fuusen, leaving Luffy spitting up blood and destroying the scaffolding:


Fuusen only protected Luffy to the point where he didn't instantly die and one has to also remember Luffy was stacking adrenaline steroids, so shit that would normally KO him he was able to keep fighting through.


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## Amol (Mar 22, 2015)

Gohara said:


> I consider Marineford Sengoku to be Prime Sengoku, so:



Anyone with functioning brain would tell that people gets weaker when they age . You are exception to that.
There has to be some scientific reason for  it.


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## TheWiggian (Mar 22, 2015)

Prime Sengoker wins high high - extreme diff. 100 - 93/97
Old Sengoker loses with solid high diff. 75/85 - 100


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## Gohara (Mar 22, 2015)

@ Amol.

It's not just in old age that characters get weaker.  I think it's more so about activity rate.  Kong still looks like he's in amazing shape despite arguably being the oldest character we've seen or at least up there with Whitebeard and Rayleigh.  Sengoku didn't start showing signs of aging until he retired and started relaxing more, and at that point he aged rapidly.  I'm simply putting two and two together to come up with the opinion that activity rate may actually have more to do with it than them aging.  That being said I should clarify what I mean.  Although I do think Sengoku is still at his prime level of power at Marineford, what I said almost comes off as me saying he's in the middle of his prime.  There may even be a slight difference between the middle of his prime and Marineford, but I more or less think he was still in tip top shape due to being more active is mainly what I'm saying.


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## Dellinger (Mar 22, 2015)

Kong just has muscles,what shape are you talking about?Rayleigh had awesome muscles too,that doesn't mean that he did not get weaker.


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## savior2005 (Mar 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I think it's fairly safe to say that Sengoku's gen were stronger than Akainu's. So I'd consider Prime-Sengoku stronger, as for what diff he faces, i'm not sure. Old-Sengoku would probably loose to Akainu though, but give him a considerable amount of difficulty.



sengoku gen being stronger doesnt make sengoku himself stronger. akainu is the strongest marine of his generation. sengoku WASNT the strongest marine of his. that was garp. your logic would work if it was prime garp vs akainu, not sengoku.

 both scenarios go to akainu. scenario 1= 97-98.
scenario 2= 94-95


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## Canute87 (Mar 22, 2015)

As soon as Akainu turned FA he moved the entire headquarters.

Marines have become much stronger under his leadership.

I'd give it to akainu in all scenarios.  

Prime Sengoku is an extreme Diff battle  otherwise it's high.


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## Lawliet (Mar 22, 2015)

> You do realize to be FA you need to be an Admiral first right. Not to mention Sengoku was an Admiral during a much more dangerous era than the one the color trio had to deal with, considering Roger and Prime-WB were running around. So at Sengoku's best he is at least qualified for Admiral, if not stronger than most other Admirals.



The admirals of this era are facing the most dangerous group ever. So you agree that the admirals of now are stronger than any admiral alive before? Since you know, the likes of Luffy, Zoro, Teach, Law, Kidd will be running around.


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## Canute87 (Mar 22, 2015)

Whitebeard and Roger don't define the entire era.


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## Gohara (Mar 22, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> Kong just has muscles,what shape are you talking about?





Rayleigh had just gotten through swimming across the ocean.  Kong's just sitting there.


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## Dellinger (Mar 22, 2015)

So what         ?


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## Turrin (Mar 22, 2015)

savior2005 said:


> sengoku gen being stronger doesnt make sengoku himself stronger. akainu is the strongest marine of his generation. sengoku WASNT the strongest marine of his. that was garp. your logic would work if it was prime garp vs akainu, not sengoku.
> 
> both scenarios go to akainu. scenario 1= 97-98.
> scenario 2= 94-95


I think the second strongest Marine of the old-Gen is still considerably stronger than the strongest Admiral of this gen. Just like Prime-WB, while not the strongest Pirate of his gen, is still considerable stronger than the strongest pirate of this era, which is oddly enough Old/Sick-WB himself.



oOLawlietOo said:


> The admirals of this era are facing the most dangerous group ever. So you agree that the admirals of now are stronger than any admiral alive before? Since you know, the likes of Luffy, Zoro, Teach, Law, Kidd will be running around.


Yeah no... the color trio are Shank's era. They may face off against members of this era, just like Sengoku and Garp did at times, but they aren't the marines of Luffy's era. Those would be characters like Smoker and Coby. And yes I believe that Smoker and Coby will be stronger than any Admiral before once they reach their Prime.


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## Gohara (Mar 22, 2015)

@ White Hawk.

So look at the muscles of someone you know when they're relaxed and look at them when they're working out.


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## Dellinger (Mar 22, 2015)

Gohara said:


> @ White Hawk.
> 
> So look at the muscles of someone you know when they're relaxed and look at them when they're working out.



Wait,are you trying to say that Rayleigh got those muscles because he swam?


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## Vengeance (Mar 22, 2015)

Pre Skip Akainu vs Prime Sengoku - Can go either way
Pre skip Akainu vs MF Sengoku  - Akainu very high difficulty


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## LyricalMessiah (Mar 22, 2015)

People need to understand that Akainu winning against Prime-Sengoku isn't as farfetched as they would like to believe because Akainu is not only very powerful with the wide array of feats he has shown with his Haki, physical strength and amazing mastery over his Devil, but because he is in his Prime as well. Two relatively powerful fighters who're in their prime going at it in a one Vs one battle can go either way. 

Anyways, Akainu's lethality with his magma is dangerous for any hand to hand physical combatants once he engages an opponent in close quarter combat. However, Sengoku's buddha form with which he can enter at will to send large surges of shockwaves can be a great counter to Akainu's magma and really extend the duration of this match until either one of them falter. 

Scenario 1 can go either way.

Scenario 2 goes to Akainu with a lot of difficulty.


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## savior2005 (Mar 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I think the second strongest Marine of the old-Gen is still *considerably* stronger than the strongest Admiral of this gen.* Just like Prime-WB, while not the strongest Pirate of his gen*, is still considerable stronger than the strongest pirate of this era, which is oddly enough Old/Sick-WB himself.
> 
> 
> Yeah no... the color trio are Shank's era. They may face off against members of this era, just like Sengoku and Garp did at times, but they aren't the marines of Luffy's era. Those would be characters like Smoker and Coby. And yes I believe that Smoker and Coby will be stronger than any Admiral before once they reach their Prime.



1. nobody is considerably stronger than and admiral, even moreso, akainu. not even a Prime garp is considerably stronger than akainu. 
2. prime wb WAS 1 of the 2 WSM. stop making shit up. in his prime, he and roger were equal.
3. wb being stronger makes sense cuz we KNOW he is WSM. sengoku isnt even worlds strongest marine. nobody has said anything exceptional about sengoku's strength, unlike WB or garp. 
4. sengoku has no notable feat, and akainu's are extremely impressive. 

AINT NO WAY IN HELL WILL ODA MAKE AKAINU WEAKER THAN ANY VERSION OF SENGOKU. Y IN THE BLUE HELL WOULD HE MAKE EOS LUFFY FIGHT SOMEONE WHO IS WEAKER THAN SENGOKU. PPL NEED TO GET OVER THIS "*ALL *THE OLD GEN TOP TIERS ARE STRONGER THAN THE NEW GENS TOP TIER"


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## Gohara (Mar 22, 2015)

@ White Hawk.

No, not "got them" from swimming.  In my example, I say look at someone while they're relaxed and then *while* (not necessarily well after working out many times and becoming stronger) they're working out.


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## trance (Mar 23, 2015)

S1: Sengoku with high/very high difficulty.

S2: Sakazuki with very high difficulty


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## mykel23 (Mar 23, 2015)

Akainu wins both


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## Pirao (Mar 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I think the second strongest Marine of the old-Gen is still considerably stronger than the strongest Admiral of this gen. Just like *Prime-WB, while not the strongest Pirate of his gen,* is still considerable stronger than the strongest pirate of this era, which is oddly enough Old/Sick-WB himself.
> 
> 
> Yeah no... the color trio are Shank's era. They may face off against members of this era, just like Sengoku and Garp did at times, but they aren't the marines of Luffy's era. Those would be characters like Smoker and Coby. And yes I believe that Smoker and Coby will be stronger than any Admiral before once they reach their Prime.





Turring trying to pass his whack beliefs as fact again


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## Imagine (Mar 23, 2015)

That's not really a ''whack belief'' considering Roger existed in WB's era.

OT: Could go either way. Prime Sengoku was definitely at the top of the food chain like Akainu is now.

S2: Akainiu extreme diff. Old Sengoku just isn't about that life but he puts up a good fight.


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## Freechoice (Mar 23, 2015)

Sengoku very high diff, 80/100

Akainu extreme diff, 95/100


The lack of appreciation for Sengoku is horrendous.


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## Ghost (Mar 23, 2015)

Sengoku sucks bruh


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## Freechoice (Mar 23, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Sengoku sucks bruh



So does your mouth

BOOM!


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## Ghost (Mar 23, 2015)

lol said:


> So does your mouth
> 
> BOOM!


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## Beckman (Mar 23, 2015)

S1 either way probably


S2 Akainu is considerably stronger and would win pretty much every time, but not without alot of trouble.

Akainu > Old Ray > Old Sengoku


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## Pirao (Mar 23, 2015)

Imagine said:


> *That's not really a ''whack belief'' considering Roger existed in WB's era.*
> 
> OT: Could go either way. Prime Sengoku was definitely at the top of the food chain like Akainu is now.
> 
> S2: Akainiu extreme diff. Old Sengoku just isn't about that life but he puts up a good fight.



It is when the manga directly states that they were equal and portrays them as equal. Manga facts>>>>>>>>>what some random poster thinks.


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## Captain Altintop (Mar 23, 2015)

S1: Prime Sengoku wins with very high difficulty (85)

S2: Akainu wins with very high to extreme difficulty (90).


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## Imagine (Mar 23, 2015)

Pirao said:


> It is when the manga directly states that they were equal and portrays them as equal. Manga facts>>>>>>>>>what some random poster thinks.


That's not just what some random poster thinks. It's what the manga offers as well.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 23, 2015)

S1: IMO, Sengoku by the skin of his teeth, or they both die.
S2: Akainu with at least high diff.


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## Pirao (Mar 23, 2015)

Imagine said:


> That's not just what some random poster thinks. It's what the manga offers as well.



No, what the manga offers is exactly what I said: Prime Roger = Prime WB.


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## jNdee~ (Mar 23, 2015)

Akainu.

S1: 95
S2: 85-90


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## savior2005 (Mar 23, 2015)

cant believe some idiots on this forum actually think that luffy's generation's strongest marine is going to lose to roger's generation second or maybe third strongest marine. then theres the fact that akainu is known for his strength and ruthlessness while sengoku is simply known as a strategist.
imo, akainu is closer to garp in strength then he is to sengoku. hell i put aokiji over sengoku.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2015)

savior2005 said:


> 1. nobody is considerably stronger than and admiral, even moreso, akainu. not even a Prime garp is considerably stronger than akainu.


Prime-WB is obviously considerably stronger than Akainu, as he could still keep up with Akainu despite the massive handicaps of age, illness, and heavy injuries. That opens the door for there to be a class of characters that are considerably stronger than Akainu.



> prime wb WAS 1 of the 2 WSM. stop making shit up. in his prime, he and roger were equa


Unless there is something that directly states Roger at his best and WB at his best were equals, i'm going to go with the PK being at least slightly > than the man who was not PK.



> . wb being stronger makes sense cuz we KNOW he is WSM. sengoku isnt even worlds strongest marine.


So because he's not Prime-WB or Roger's level he can't be stronger than Akainu, please. There is more than enough of a gap in strength  between Prime-WB/Roger and Akainu, for other characters to fit.



> nobody has said anything exceptional about sengoku's strength, unlike WB or garp.


As far as Garp goes, Sengoku has always been portrayed side by side with Garp. The two are suppose to be viewed as close, not Garp being eons above Sengoku. Fuck Sengoku held down a pissed off Garp with a single handle in the war, while not even in his buddha form. Oda's not drawing Sengoku doing stuff like that if he's much weaker than Garp. And both were equally praised and extolled for their services during Roger's era, Garp became a hero of the marines, while Sengoku was promoted to the most decorated and highest position in the marines. Sengoku and Garp are both meant to be seen as top marines of their era, and considering that was an era where pirates as powerful as Prime-Roger, Prime-WB, and Prime-Raliegh were running amok, that is something truly remarkable.



> AINT NO WAY IN HELL WILL ODA MAKE AKAINU WEAKER THAN ANY VERSION OF SENGOKU. Y IN THE BLUE HELL WOULD HE MAKE EOS LUFFY FIGHT SOMEONE WHO IS WEAKER THAN SENGOKU


Where was it ever confirmed Akainu is Luffy's EOS opponent. Where was it ever confirmed Akainu couldn't become stronger by EOS, if he was FV. And so on. 

Your basically theorizing on what the ending of the manga will be and than bitching at everyone who disagrees with your theory or simply believes there are other options on the table. 



> . PPL NEED TO GET OVER THIS "ALL THE OLD GEN TOP TIERS ARE STRONGER THAN THE NEW GENS TOP TIER"


The manga cannon tells us this is the case. The Old gen was so much stronger compared to this one that WSM is still a member of that Old-Gen, despite his age and having fatal illness. And WB wasn't necessarily even the strongest man of his age, with Roger running around.

Than we also have shit like Ray, whose merely the FM of the PK not the PK himself, being able to still keep up with one of the strongest of this gen (Kizaru), while far past his Prime. Sengoku while being past his Prime showing the ability to beat back the entire Black-Beard crew post-gura. And so on. 

The manga makes it blantantly obvious that Roger's Gen top tiers are considerably stronger than the current ones, with Luffy's Gen being the only ones capable of reaching or surpassing that Gen.



Pirao said:


> It is when the manga directly states that they were equal and portrays them as equal. Manga facts>>>>>>>>>what some random poster thinks.


No the manga does not say that at all. It says WB managed to fight equally with Roger in multiple instances and implies a competitive rivalry between the two. But it does not at all state that Roger didn't eventually surpass WB, and in-fact the natural assumption would be that he did as he became PK and WB did not. Also in these moments of hype WB is drawing his hype off Roger, not the other way around. WB is so good in Buggy's mind because he once fought Roger equally. Roger respects WB because WB managed to give him good fights in multiple instance. WB's hype is just part of Roger's hype.



savior2005 said:


> cant believe some idiots on this forum actually think that luffy's generation's strongest marine is going to lose to roger's generation second or maybe third strongest marine. then theres the fact that akainu is known for his strength and ruthlessness while sengoku is simply known as a strategist.
> imo, akainu is closer to garp in strength then he is to sengoku. hell i put aokiji over sengoku.


How is Akainu part of Luffy's Generation lol, that's nonsense. Smoker and Coby are part of Luffy's gen; Akainu is part of Shank's gen.


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## Pirao (Mar 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> No the manga does not say that at all. It says WB managed to fight equally with Roger in multiple instances and implies a competitive rivalry between the two. *But it does not at all state that Roger didn't eventually surpass WB, and in-fact the natural assumption would be that he did as he became PK and WB did not. *Also in these moments of hype WB is drawing his hype off Roger, not the other way around. WB is so good in Buggy's mind because he once fought Roger equally. Roger respects WB because WB managed to give him good fights in multiple instance. WB's hype is just part of Roger's hype.



What a bunch of BS. Your reasoning makes no sense because the manga flat out tells us that WB gave no f*cks about being PK. Provide your proof that Roger eventually surpassed WB. Both Roger and WB draw hype from each other. 

All the evidence provided in the manga points to them being equal. They were also portrayed as equals. So, since you're the one contradicting manga canon, go ahead and present your evidence.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2015)

Pirao said:


> What a bunch of BS. Your reasoning makes no sense because the manga flat out tells us that WB gave no f*cks about being PK.


PK wasn't a title until Roger achieved it, he achieved it by accomplishing things WB did not and becoming the most infamous Pirate of that age, and potentially of all time. So it's not about WB not wanting to be PK, it's about the fact that despite all of WB's decorated accomplishments, they were not as good as what Roger accomplished. Does that necessarily mean WB was weaker than Roger, no it doesn't, I fully cop to that, but it does make it more likely to be the case.



> Provide your proof that Roger eventually surpassed WB


Provide your absolute proof that he didn't. Your the one claiming that he absolutely did not and that anyone even entertaining the possibility that he did are disregarding cannon. However nether Buggy's nor Roger's statements, which are the only ones I can imagine your drawing from, discount the possibility that Roger did surpass WB. So ether provide another statement or stop claiming everyone holding a different opinion than you is absolutely wrong. Your choice.



> Both Roger and WB draw hype from each other.


How does Roger draw hype from WB? Roger is the most infamous and greatest of all pirates, to our knowledge, so I don't see why he would need to draw hype from any other pirate. WB on the other hand draws hype from Roger, because he was able to perform so well against someone who is as legendary as Roger.



> All the evidence provided in the manga points to them being equal.


That's just outright not true. The manga points to them being close rivals, but not to direct everlasting equality.



> So, since you're the one contradicting manga canon, go ahead and present your evidence.


No one is contradicting manga-cannon. When you say they are equals or I say I think Roger was stronger, nether position contradicts manga-cannon at this point, because the manga-cannon has not stated as a fact which premise is true or false. We are just voicing opinions, and that's it.


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## Pirao (Mar 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> PK wasn't a title until Roger achieved it, *he achieved it by accomplishing things WB did not *and becoming the most infamous Pirate of that age, and potentially of all time. So it's not about WB not wanting to be PK, it's about the fact that despite all of WB's decorated accomplishments, they were not as good as what Roger accomplished. Does that necessarily mean WB was weaker than Roger, no it doesn't, I fully cop to that, but it does make it more likely to be the case.



WB didn't accomplish them because he didn't care, as stated in the manga. And no it doesn't. They're equal because the manga states they're equal and there's no evidence to the contrary, so until there is. WB=Roger.




> Provide your absolute proof that he didn't. Your the one claiming that he absolutely did not and that anyone even entertaining the possibility that he did are disregarding cannon. However nether Buggy's nor Roger's statements, which are the only ones I can imagine your drawing from, discount the possibility that Roger did surpass WB. So ether provide another statement or stop claiming everyone holding a different opinion than you is absolutely wrong. Your choice.



Trying to shift the the burden of proof to me when you're the one claiming something that contradicts the manga 

Nice try, but it ain't gonna work. Still waiting for your proof. 

You really went and pulled the "my opinion card"? That's Gohara tier, dude. Sorry, but if you think all opinions are equal, I've some bad news: they're not.



> How does Roger draw hype from WB? Roger is the most infamous and greatest of all pirates, to our knowledge, so I don't see why he would need to draw hype from any other pirate. WB on the other hand draws hype from Roger, because he was able to perform so well against someone who is as legendary as Roger.



Because Wb actually has feats while Roger has 0. Kinda obvious.



> That's just outright not true. The manga points to them being close rivals, but not to direct everlasting equality.



Yes, it in fact is. Unless you can provide proof of the inequality you're claiming, of course (which I know for a fact you can't do )



> No one is contradicting manga-cannon. When you say they are equals or I say I think Roger was stronger, nether position contradicts manga-cannon at this point, because the manga-cannon has not stated as a fact which premise is true or false. We are just voicing opinions, and that's it.



Except that you are. Manga provides evidence that they were equal. Manga doesn't provide evidence that there was the superiority you're claiming there is. Thus my opinion is supported by the manga, and yours isn't.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2015)

@Pirao

The problem is the stuff your presenting is not necessarily evidence of equality, it could also just as easily be evidence of WB and Roger being close in strength, like Akainu and Aokiji. That's the disconnect between the way your posting, which essentially boils down to calling people idiots who think differently than you, and the evidence your actually providing to back up that, which in reality is open to more than on interpretation.


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## Pirao (Mar 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> @Pirao
> 
> The problem is the stuff your presenting is not necessarily evidence of equality, it could also just as easily be evidence of WB and Roger being close in strength, like Akainu and Aokiji. That's the disconnect between the way your posting, which essentially boils down to calling people idiots who think differently than you, and the evidence your actually providing to back up that, which in reality is open to more than on interpretation.



Where did I call you an idiot and where's your proof about Roger being superior? Cuz I'm still waiting for it you know.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Where did I call you an idiot and where's your proof about Roger being superior? Cuz I'm still waiting for it you know.


I'm still waiting on your proof that WB is equal?

You don't seem to get the difference here. I acknowledge that both options are opinions and plausible, you on the other hand are treating your opinion as fact, and therefore the burden of proof is on you.
----

As for me I think Roger and WB having an Akainu and Aokiji type relationship is perfectly reasonable. WB can put up an amazing fighting against Roger, like Aokiji was able to against Akainu, but ultimately Roger would win if they took the battle to it's conclusion, just like Akainu beat Aokiji. This not only fits with the statements made by Roger and Buggy, but it also fits with the fact that Roger is ultimately the PK, more plot relevant than WB, and the MC's main benchmark in the series.


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## Pirao (Mar 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I'm still waiting on your proof that WB is equal?
> 
> You don't seem to get the difference here. I acknowledge that both options are opinions and plausible, you on the other hand are treating your opinion as fact, and therefore the burden of proof is on you.
> ----





I'm treating my opinion as the one supported by the manga, which is what it is. Your opinion is supported by... nothing.



> As for me I think Roger and WB having an Akainu and Aokiji type relationship is perfectly reasonable. WB can put up an amazing fighting against Roger, like Aokiji was able to against Akainu, but ultimately Roger would win if they took the battle to it's conclusion, just like Akainu beat Aokiji. This not only fits with the statements made by Roger and Buggy, but it also fits with the fact that Roger is ultimately the PK, more plot relevant than WB, and the MC's main benchmark in the series.



I don't care about what you think. I care about what Oda thinks and shows in his manga. So, where's your manga proof? Still waiting.


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## trance (Mar 24, 2015)

They were said to be equal and until something is shown to contradict that statement, it still has basis. Roger being Pirate King also demonstrates nothing because Whitebeard himself had no interest in being Pirate King.


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## Coruscation (Mar 24, 2015)

The fact that this is what Oda chose to end the entirety of part 1 with, the end of the era that Roger started with his dying words, is telling:



Not Roger in the middle of some epic spread with a bunch of players spread out around him... not Roger in some highlighted position... not Shiki or Garp or Sengoku or Rayleigh... simply two men, standing beside each other, each given equal space in the picture as they were given equal respect in the story and gave equal respect to one another, the one man who was called the Pirate King and the other who was called the King of the Sea and the Pirate King's one and only equal and never desired the title for himself.

You can decide to believe that Roger is Whitebeard's superior because Shounen logic, but don't come claiming it's the more likely scenario.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2015)

Pirao said:


> I'm treating my opinion as the one supported by the manga, which is what it is. Your opinion is supported by... nothing.


But the stuff your citing equally supports my stance.



> I don't care about what you think. I care about what Oda thinks and shows in his manga. So, where's your manga proof? Still waiting.


I already explained it to you.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> You can decide to believe that Roger is Whitebeard's superior because Shounen logic, but don't come claiming it's the more likely scenario.



Kind of like how Oda portrays Sengoku and Garp, or the three Color Admirals? 

And your really telling me that if WB fought Roger the PK, MC's main benchmark, and greatest of all pirates, to the death, Oda having him eventually win Akainu vs Aokiji style isn't even a little bit more likely then them killing each other. Come on.


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## LyricalMessiah (Mar 24, 2015)

Can we all agree that they were equals until further new evidence surfaces pointing to the contrary? There aren't any substantial clues leading to the fact that either one of them was superior to the other, and thus any argument(s) as to how either Rodger or Whitebeard was superior to the other is moot. In my honest opinion, I believe that both were equals to one another in regards to their strength. Of course, this is only my opinion.


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## mykel23 (Mar 24, 2015)

It's been stated and portrayed in the manga that they were equals. WB didn't care about the objects that Roger concerned himself with, pursuits that pushed him to become PK, but he has been acknowledge as Roger's equal many times in the manga.


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## Coruscation (Mar 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Kind of like how Oda portrays Sengoku and Garp, or the three Color Admirals?
> 
> And your really telling me that if WB fought Roger the PK, MC's main benchmark, and greatest of all pirates, to the death, Oda having him eventually win Akainu vs Aokiji style isn't even a little bit more likely then them killing each other. Come on.



When did Oda ever call Sengoku the only man who was Garp's equal? When did he call Kizaru and Aokiji the only men equal to Akainu? I must have forgotten.

No, as you're well aware I really don't care about your Shounen trope logic. I interpret the story of One Piece as the story of One Piece and that story tells me that Roger and Whitebeard were equal, not one superior to the other. Because there is absolutely nothing indicating Roger's superiority and their equality is hinted at multiple times, as well as directly stated. Why do you think Oda went out of his way to inform us that Whitebeard didn't even want to become the PK? Obviously to clear up the _exact _misconception you are now falling into, namely that Roger becoming the PK and WB "failing" somehow suggests Roger was stronger. Try to see the story of One Piece as an independent entity for once instead of being led blindly by your Shounen tropes.


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## Kanki (Mar 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> You do realize to be FA you need to be an Admiral first right. Not to mention Sengoku was an Admiral during a much more dangerous era than the one the color trio had to deal with, considering Roger and Prime-WB were running around. So at Sengoku's best he is at least qualified for Admiral, if not stronger than most other Admirals.
> 
> At his worst, when old and out of shape in Marine-Ford, he was still comfortably fighting off the entire BB crew, post-gura.
> 
> ...



Not totally true.

Roger inspired the great Pirate era - of which we've been just been living in. Overall the sea was more dangerous post-Roger IIRC.


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> When did Oda ever call Sengoku the only man who was Garp's equal? When did he call Kizaru and Aokiji the only men equal to Akainu? I must have forgotten.
> .


The better question is when did he call WB equal to Roger, because that never happened in the manga-cannon ether. What was said is that WB was able to fight equally with Roger on several occasions, which is not the same thing. People would likely describe a clash between the Color Trio members or Garp and Sengoku the same way; wait scratch that, Jinbei already did describe Akainu vs Aokiji in a similar fashion.



> No, as you're well aware I really don't care about your Shounen trope logic.


It's always cool to see someone who absolutely refuses to learn from history.



> Because there is absolutely nothing indicating Roger's superiority and their equality is hinted at multiple times, as well as directly stated.


Where is this statement of equality, because if your referring to Buggy's or Roger's statements, they do not say that. So unless i'm missing something, the manga isn't stating anything, rather it's your opinion based on two comments that are open to multiple interpretations.

As for nothing indicating Roger's superiority, Roger's character archetype and how said archetype is typically handled in this medium is what indicates his superiority. Whether you choose to take a head firmly planted in sand approach to past historical precedences, you should still at the very least be able to acknowledge why people believe this lends credence to the idea that Roger is stronger than WB.



> Why do you think Oda went out of his way to inform us that Whitebeard didn't even want to become the PK? Obviously to clear up the exact misconception you are now falling into, namely that Roger becoming the PK and WB "failing" somehow suggests Roger was stronger.


Lol, no I don't think Oda went out of his way to specifically draw those scenes to clear up confusion about Roger's standings next to WB. If Oda wanted to make that clear, he would have simply had Roger state that WB was equally as strong as him. So that absolutely was not Oda's reasoning, instead his reasoning for going out of the way to show those scenes was very clearly to build give readers a better sense of WB's character, and bring WB's character arch full circle. Basically they were there to explain what was most important to WB was having a family, so that when he died, we could see that he died with his dream fulfilled. 



> Try to see the story of One Piece as an independent entity for once instead of being led blindly by your Shounen tropes.


Sorry, but i will always use history as guide when developing my thoughts and ideas, because I consider it extremely narrow minded to completely disregard history.

However even if I did disregard the historical precedences set for Roger's character archetype, I would still consider it more likely that Roger and WB had an Akainu/Aokiji power relationship, because even when strictly talking about One-Piece itself i'm going to give the man whose PK the slight nod over the man who was not PK. You can say WB didn't become PK because he lacked the ambition to do so, but to me that lack of ambition is precisely why Roger who had that ambition and was able to move a step further than WB in his journey; making it Raftel and find one-piece, should still have the edge as far as combat is concerned. Even if that is manifested in them being equally skilled combatants, but Roger would beat WB because his will and ambition would carry him that slight step further to keep fighting longer than WB.

And once again nothing in the manga contradicts this. Did WB fight on equal terms with Roger in the past, sure he did. But that doesn't mean when fighting to the absolute death, where to quote Jinbei there had to be a victor, Roger wouldn't win out in the end. As again everything stated and portrayal wise about Roger and WB's relationship can very easily be applied to Aokiji and Akainu's relationships, and there battle if they had stopped at day 9 instead of day 10. 



Kanki said:


> Not totally true.
> 
> Roger inspired the great Pirate era - of which we've been just been living in. Overall the sea was more dangerous post-Roger IIRC.


The sea was more dangerous because there were more pirates roaming around in all areas of the world trying to make a name for themselves, but when discussing the strongest in each era, Roger's era is clearly above the current one. As I said before the strongest of Roger's era are so powerful that one of the top dogs back then even sick and old still held the title of WSM and even adding injuries ontop of that still could go toe to toe with top dogs from the Shanks era.


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## Kanki (Mar 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The sea was more dangerous because there were more pirates roaming around in all areas of the world trying to make a name for themselves, but when discussing the strongest in each era, Roger's era is clearly above the current one. As I said before the strongest of Roger's era are so powerful that one of the top dogs back then even sick and old still held the title of WSM and even adding injuries ontop of that still could go toe to toe with top dogs from the Shanks era.



No doubt it has the top 2, but the recent era did have Shanks, Mihawk, Doflamingo, Dragon, Whitebeard himself still, I assume Kaido/BM, many of the Whitebeard Pirates it seems...

Roger's death created an explosion - the waters became far more dangerous because everyone went crazy, looking for One Piece. And it seems like we're about to hit a second explosion with the new Generation which no doubt will become the greatest.

What's the greater era; a period with 4 dudes at 10/10 or a period with 25 dudes at 9/10?


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## Amol (Mar 25, 2015)

Roger and WB were equal in strength.
Anyone disagreeing this is writing a fanfiction and blatantly ignoring manga.


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2015)

Kanki said:


> No doubt it has the top 2, but the recent era did have Shanks, Mihawk, Doflamingo, Dragon, Whitebeard himself still, I assume Kaido/BM, many of the Whitebeard Pirates it seems...
> 
> Roger's death created an explosion - the waters became far more dangerous because everyone went crazy, looking for One Piece. And it seems like we're about to hit a second explosion with the new Generation which no doubt will become the greatest.
> 
> What's the greater era; a period with 4 dudes at 10/10 or a period with 25 dudes at 9/10?


From that Era we have: Garp, Sengoku, Roger, WB, and Raleigh. Thats 5. 

But I see your point, however I don't think it's a fair comparison. Of course we will see more top dogs from Shank's era, because that era is still active, while most people from Roger's era are dead, retired, or significantly decayed in strength, and are therefore less active in the current time-line. So seeing more from the current time-line is meaningless to me, as we don't have a full count from Roger's era to compare.

All we can compare is whose top dogs are better, and Roger's era wins that easily. 

I agree that the seas became more dangerous, but only so far as them being more dangers in the sense that more newbies were incentivized to become Pirates, so there were more pirates around the world running amuck. When you have people like Arlong coming to East-Blue things are more dangerous on average, but Arlong is absolute fodder when discussing the top dogs. So basically while there was more piracy and danger, I don't think there were necessarily more top dogs around, as I think most of them just end up getting weeded out before they reach the top. Or more simply I don't think becoming a top dog is simply a matter of probability, like 1k more pirates means more top dogs, rather I think only those with specifically special individuals can do it, which may end up as 5-10 whether you start with 1k or 100.


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## Pirao (Mar 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> But the stuff your citing equally supports my stance.





Sure it does, buddy, sure it does.



> I already explained it to you.



You explained what? I'm not requiring explanations. I'm requiring manga evidence that supports your claim, so let's see it... or you could just admit you don't have any and stop this charade you know.


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## trance (Mar 25, 2015)

Roger's era had stronger beings but the middle generation has a greater quantity of fighters, who aren't even _that_ much weaker than the big names of Roger's era.


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## Coruscation (Mar 25, 2015)

Turrin said:
			
		

> The better question is when did he call WB equal to Roger, because that never happened in the manga-cannon ether.



Yes it did.



			
				Buggy said:
			
		

> Whitebeard is...  he is...
> A legendary "MONSTER" who was once the only man who could ever match the Pirate King Roger!!!



This is Oda speaking through his characters, telling us the information he wants us to know. Whitebeard was the ONLY man who could EVER match the Pirate King. Match. This doesn't mean beating each other up real good, because we know Roger & Garp also did that, it means something else, something more, it means they were equal.



> People would likely describe a clash between the Color Trio members or Garp and Sengoku the same way; wait scratch that, Jinbei already did describe Akainu vs Aokiji in a similar fashion.



No, Jinbe said that they were _*almost*_ equally matched. Do you know what the word almost means? You are as wrong as you can possibly be.



> As for nothing indicating Roger's superiority, Roger's character archetype and how said archetype is typically handled in this medium is what indicates his superiority.



It doesn't indicate shit. It would indeed be reasonable to use it as a preliminary pointer if we had no other direction on the matter to go by. But we do, and so it doesn't mean a damn thing.



> Basically they were there to explain what was most important to WB was having a family, so that when he died, we could see that he died with his dream fulfilled.



No. The most important thing to WB being a family was explained in a completely different scene. By Whitebeard stating that the most important thing to him is to have a family. Oda going out of his way to tell us WB could've been the PK if he wanted to but simply didn't care about it is a completely different thing.



> You can say WB didn't become PK because he lacked the ambition to do so, but to me that lack of ambition is precisely why Roger who had that ambition and was able to move a step further than WB in his journey; making it Raftel and find one-piece, should still have the edge as far as combat is concerned



It's not a "step further". They were on different tracks altogether. Roger didn't reach a step further on the same path as Whitebeard; he was on a different path leading to a completely different place. Their paths just happened to often cross. Whitebeard's ambition to have and protect his family was equally as strong as Roger's ambition to reach the end of the Grand Line, which is why WB was the only man to equal Roger, why he was known as the King after Roger died, the WSM after Roger died, etc. No one other than Whitebeard had as strong a conviction as Roger. Just because that conviction was something qualitatively different than Roger's doesn't mean it was quantitatively weaker.



> Did WB fight on equal terms with Roger in the past, sure he did. But that doesn't mean when fighting to the absolute death, where to quote Jinbei there had to be a victor, Roger wouldn't win out in the end. As again everything stated and portrayal wise about Roger and WB's relationship can very easily be applied to Aokiji and Akainu's relationships, and there battle if they had stopped at day 9 instead of day 10



The situations aren't fucking comparable. Oda goes out of his way to paint Whitebeard and Roger as equals. Oda *has not* gone out of his way to paint Aokiji and Akainu as equals. He has explicitly told us that they were *not* equal. Your fictional bullshit about a 9 day instead of 10 battle means nothing. That's not how Oda chose to portray it, he chose to portray it by explicitly telling us that they were close but Akainu was stronger, he has done absolutely nothing of the sort for WB & Roger and has highlighted their equality over and over. That's what makes the scenarios completely different.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 25, 2015)

Roger would kill whitebeard in a all out fight.


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2015)

@Coruscation

The problem here is you and i have different translations of buggy's line. The translations iv'e seen all  say WB once fought Roger equally, not that he was the only man to match Roger , which are two different things


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## Freechoice (Mar 25, 2015)

Roger was matched by two people, WB _and_ Garp

Good guy Turrin.


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## Coruscation (Mar 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> @Coruscation
> 
> The problem here is you and i have different translations of buggy's line. The translations iv'e seen all  say WB once fought Roger equally, not that he was the only man to match Roger , which are two different things



I posted the translation made by Stephen, a notable translator who translated most of the manga a while back before he became Viz's translator for OP. I fully trust that translation; but if you don't know who he is and don't take my word for it, or the word of other people around here who I'm sure can chime in and confirm that he's known as credible, that's fine.


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> I posted the translation made by Stephen, a notable translator who translated most of the manga a while back before he became Viz's translator for OP. I fully trust that translation; but if you don't know who he is and don't take my word for it, or the word of other people around here who I'm sure can chime in and confirm that he's known as credible, that's fine.


Yeah i'd like the raw or raw text to translate myself,, or some other translations backing up his, or some translator that I trust telling me he's solid. The guy might be great, but again I don't know the context of how he translated it. Did he translate it just to give readers a sense of what's been said or did he translate it to be scrutinized in power-debates. The former style of translation focuses on making things flow the best, but doesn't capture the exact meaning of the text, the latter translation style abandons flow, and focus on just the exact meaning, which is most important for these discussions. Additionally even the best translators make mistakes, and since i've seen at least 2 translations I can recall differing, that makes this questionable to me.  

If you can provide any of the above things I mentioned to back up this trans, i'll gladly admit I was wrong or do a trans myself if you provide the Raw/Raw-Text, and i'll admit I was wrong if my translation concurs with his as well. However until then I don't see a reason to take this as word of god.


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2015)

Alright I found this shit, and here's the deal. The sentence itself doesn't make total sense in english, and i expect stephan ran into the same problem. So to make sense of it in english it needs rewording, which is what Stephan did, but potentially at the loss of some of the context. Stephan translates it this way:

"A legendary "MONSTER" who was once the only man who could ever match the Pirate King Roger!!!"

I know this is wrong because he clearly leaves out an entire word

 戦った means, fought.

The fact that it's not in his translations immediately told me he reworded this for the sake of flow.

Now let's look at it closer. Next up comes the part about matching

"唯一" = sole, only, etc...

so it's the only "互角"

Now here's part of the problem "互角", can mean equality, but it's a little more bendable than that, and can also just mean something is close, but not dead even, I.E. instead of "matched" it can mean "good match" or "close match". 

The second problem is that the text frames this within the confines of a specific time period by using the particle "に", which is used to express time. That's where stephan gets the "once" in his translation from. 

But it never tells us when this was or if this always was the case. It just says at a certain time they ether fought on par or fought a good match. Ultimately i'd translate it like this:

_"What!, the legendary monster that was the only one to have once fought on par [or a close match] with the Pirate King, Roger"_

--------

So no Buggy's statement does not confirm equality between WB and Roger. It confirms that once they fought a on par or good match against each other. Which is really no different than Roger's statement about how they fought to the death many times in the past. All it's telling us is that WB fought really well against the Pirate King in the past, not who at their absolute best, is stronger. 

And here's a link to the Raw that everyone can use verify that the Kanji and shit I spoke off are there:


That's why it pays to have the raws


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## Coruscation (Mar 25, 2015)

You really don't get any of this do you? *It's about context*. You said yourself that the word CAN mean equality. Well there you go. I'm guessing that's why a professional translator like Stephen translated it the way he did. Because *context* informs us that that's what it is. Equality. On par. _Match_. Not "a good fight" or whatever dumb shit you came up with to explain it away. We know that's not the meaning because Garp also once gave Roger really, really good fights to the point where he nearly killed him. But Whitebeard was the ONLY man who could EVER fight Roger in some way. Now if Garp nearly killed Roger, and WB did _more_ than that, what the hell is more than nearly killing a guy? That would be matching the guy. Like a professional translator put it.

_Context_ informs us what the intended meaning is. Comparing it with what Garp did, which was less and yet it was nearly killing Roger. Looking at Oda going out of his way to let us know that Whitebeard never ever "lost" to Roger, not remotely, he simply didn't give a crap about the PK title. Seeing how Oda ends part 1 of the entire manga with a picture of both WB & Roger standing side to side as the equals they were. The lack of so much as one. single. thing even remotely suggesting WB was Roger's inferior. But you choose to completely ignore all of the context the manga gives us in favor of slapping your generic Shounen trope logic onto it. _This is not analyzing a story_. This is not how a story is interpreted. All you're doing is stamping your old tired tropes on the series while giving no fucks about whether the story itself actually supports let alone suggests it. Thus any further discussion is ultimately pointless because your premise is to base everything off of your interpretation of tropes and cliches from completely different series and not what the story itself shows.


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## Kaiser (Mar 25, 2015)

First scenario can go either way. Akainu wins the second with about high-very high difficulty


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## Pirao (Mar 25, 2015)

Turrin you think anyone is gonna believe your claimed translations over that of a professional translator? Really?


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## Kaiser (Mar 25, 2015)

You don't need to be japanese to have an idea of what Turrin is trying to say. There exist translator web sites in internet between japanese and english for this and if the raw is actually right, what Turrin says is correct(i checked)


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## Pirao (Mar 25, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> You don't need to be japanese to have an idea of what Turrin is trying to say. There exist translator web sites in internet between japanese and english for this and if the raw is actually right, what Turrin says is correct(i checked)



Translator websites are usually sh*t, they don't take common idioms into account, nor context. Do you really think I'm going to take at face value the translation of a random poster with a clear agenda in an internet forum over that of a profesional translator?


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## Kaiser (Mar 25, 2015)

I guess you could be right concerning things like tonation, contexts or idioms


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> You really don't get any of this do you? *It's about context*. You said yourself that the word CAN mean equality. Well there you go. I'm guessing that's why a professional translator like Stephen translated it the way he did. Because *context* informs us that that's what it is. Equality. On par. _Match_. Not "a good fight" or whatever dumb shit you came up with to explain it away..


The context can make sense for equality or them just being close. Nothing differentiates the two. Stephan did make a choice, but not because the raw-japanese leans in one way or the other, but just to make the wording flow better in english.

Stephan was likely not translating this shit, to be held up as the word of god in strength debates. He was probably just translating this so people could read the manga in a smoother fashion than what truly crap online translations can many times produce. 



> We know that's not the meaning because Garp also once gave Roger really, really good fights to the point where he nearly killed him. But Whitebeard was the ONLY man who could EVER fight Roger in some way. Now if Garp nearly killed Roger, and WB did more than that, what the hell is more than nearly killing a guy? That would be matching the guy. Like a professional translator put it.


Or they simply happened at different time periods. Garp nearly killed Roger. Than Roger got stronger and at that point only WB could put up such a good fight against them. 

Again, because Buggy's statement lacks a sense of temporality outside of this happening once upon a time, and i'm assuming Garp's does as well (though I haven't seen it), there is no reason for them to be contradictory. 

Luffy could fight DD to the death in the next couple of chapters, but by EOS Law could be the only pirate left able to give him a good fight. So they aren't necessarily contradictory sentiments.



> Context informs us what the intended meaning is.


Yes and the context is Oda specifically phrased Buggy's statement to leave it open ended as to who was actually stronger between WB and Roger, or if they were equal. It would have been very simple for Oda to use 匹敵, which actually means match/equal with no leeway, but instead he choose a wording that did leave leeway.



> Looking at Oda going out of his way to let us know that Whitebeard never ever "lost" to Roger, not remotely, he simply didn't give a crap about the PK title. Seeing how Oda ends part 1 of the entire manga with a picture of both WB & Roger standing side to side as the equals they were.


Again Oda does this shit with characters that are close in strength, but not precisely equal. Look at the way Oda treats top marines.

Garp and Sengoku are constantly portrayed side by side:



When WB's age ends they both retire at the same time. They are both the heroes of the old era, in the marines. Do you think they are also dead even, or do you think Garp has a slight edge?

This is also how Oda portrays the Color Trio. They all share the title and hype of WG/Marines Greatest "senryoku" [war potential]. Constantly portrayed side by side. Have the same general theme, can fight on par with each other, etc... but at the end of the day Akainu is slightly stronger than Aokiji.

None of what your presenting is any different than these instances.



> But you choose to completely ignore all of the context the manga gives us in favor of slapping your generic Shounen trope logic onto it. This is not analyzing a story. This is not how a story is interpreted. All you're doing is stamping your old tired tropes on the series while giving no fucks about whether the story itself actually supports let alone suggests it..


Here's the facts Crocus.

The way Oda actually wrote Buggy's statement in the raw japanese leaves it open to other interpretation. You choose to interpret it one way, while I choose another interpretation. So far as that's concerned there is no right or wrong answer; except asserting that your interpretation is the only correct one, which is downright falsified by the text.

Beyond that statement you offer other bits of portrayal to support your premise, but again these things are open to interpretation. This stuff can support ether Roger = WB, or Roger and WB being extremely close, but Roger having the edge, like an Akainu/Aokiji or Garp/Sengoku. Again as far that's concerned there both these interpretations are valid.

Finally we come to the issue of historical precedence set for that character archetype. You don't want to buy into that, fine, that's your choice. But while it's not enough to say Roger is definitely stronger than WB, it certainly supports that premise whether you like it or not. And w/o anything else that makes one interpretation more valid than thee other, besides this, than i'm (as should anyone being fair) going to give the interpretation that has the weight of historical precedence behind it the edge in likelihood over the one that refuses to account for it at all.



> Thus any further discussion is ultimately pointless because your premise is to base everything off of your interpretation of tropes and cliches from completely different series and not what the story itself shows


It's more like further discussion is pointless because you refuse to acknowledge other view points than your own. I'm not saying you must believe my view point due to Shonen tropes, but you should be able to acknowledge it as viable interpretation, just like I acknowledge your interpretation as viable. But you seem completely incapable of doing that, and continue to insist that the manga only allows for your interpretation, even though your contradicting the raw-text to assert such.


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2015)

Pirao said:


> Translator websites are usually sh*t, they don't take common idioms into account, nor context. Do you really think I'm going to take at face value the translation of a random poster with a clear agenda in an internet forum over that of a profesional translator?



You don't have to take shit at face value. Stephan's translation leaves out an entire word. This is something that is easily verifiable for yourself, by simply looking at the Kanji used in the raw "戦", and than looking that shit up in a translator. Fuck I'll do it for you:


That may not tell you i'm right about everything, but it lets you know that Stephan's translation is not a Verbatim translation and as such shouldn't be treated as the word of god that you and crocus are treating it as. 

Also being a professional doesn't mean you don't make mistakes. The Viz translators made mistakes with Naruto all the time, and you can verify that by going back in the translator archieves and seeing the opinions of Shounensuki, Gottheim, etc... on why certain Viz translations are wrong. Shounensuki being a professional translator these days as well.

Finally even in Stephan's translation he still accounts for the temporarily of the statement by using "once". 

""A legendary "MONSTER" who was once the only man who could ever match the Pirate King Roger!!!""

WB matching him once upon a time, does not automatically means it always applies. So even his translation does accounts for that lack of definitive nature.

Sorry, but there is no good reason, whether someone believes me or not, to take this as a definitive statement of Roger at his best was equal to WB at his best.

Edit: Also in my own defense i'm not just some random person making shit up, I translated a great deal of DBIV, well before this post as well as other translations, and many of the times my translations were approved off by other translators or I worked directly with other translators. So it's not out of nowhere. 

And when it comes to having an agenda that applies to the person who is arguing against someone who can actually read Japanese and provides links to verify his work with quality online translators and raw scans, why because there might be some turn of phrase that magically invalidates this, a turn phrase that is not even remotely hinted at in even stephan's translator. Yeah, you should stop speaking towards bias bro.


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## Pirao (Mar 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> You don't have to take shit at face value. Stephan's translation leaves out an entire word. This is something that is easily verifiable for yourself, by simply looking at the Kanji used in the raw "戦", and than looking that shit up in a translator. Fuck I'll do it for you:
> 
> 
> That may not tell you i'm right about everything, but it lets you know that Stephan's translation is not a Verbatim translation and as such shouldn't be treated as the word of god that you and crocus are treating it as.
> ...



TL;DR.

Bring me a credible translator that says that page says what you say it says, until then I'll go with the profesional's translator's word.

I'll stop speaking of bias when you make your opinion based around the facts the manga offers, instead of twisting the facts so that they match the opinion that you're offering.


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2015)

Pirao said:


> TL;DR.
> 
> Bring me a credible translator that says that page says what you say it says, until then I'll go with the profesional's translator's word.
> .



I'm a credible translator considering I can actually cite sources and verifiable reasons for why I translated the text the way I did. Stephan is not credible in this instance, because he's not around to provide the same verification and his translation is blatantly not verbatim with him leaving out entire words.



> I'll stop speaking of bias when you make your opinion based around the facts the manga offers, instead of twisting the facts so that they match the opinion that you're offering


Whose bias, the person who translated the text and admits that the text is open to both interpretations. Or the guy whose calling everyone else biased because they don't agree with his interpretation, based on a single translation that can't be verified and can be factually shown to be not verbatim.

Get out of here dude, like seriously.


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## Amol (Mar 25, 2015)




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## Pirao (Mar 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> *I'm a credible translator* considering I can actually cite sources and verifiable reasons for why I translated the text the way I did. Stephan is not credible in this instance, because he's not around to provide the same verification and his translation is blatantly not verbatim with him leaving out entire words.



Lol. No you're not.



> Whose bias, the person who translated the text and admits that the text is open to both interpretations.* Or the guy whose calling everyone else biased because they don't agree with his interpretation*, based on a single translation that can't be verified and can be factually shown to be not verbatim.
> 
> Get out of here dude, like seriously.



Calling everyone else biased?  Must be what you're doing because most people are agreeing with me on this.


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## savior2005 (Mar 25, 2015)

cant believe ppl are still debating where or not roger was stronger than WB, when MUTHA FUCKIN ODA SAID ROGER=WB.

SOMEONE POST A BATISTA DEAL WITH IT PIC UNDER THIS POST PLEASE.


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