# The real reason we overrate King



## GiantForehead (Oct 2, 2021)

Zoro stans

Luffy beat a King equivalent 2 arcs ago, and for some that's hard to stomach. So far King has shown nothing special. In fact, he's been a bit disappointing. Marco held him off despite being tag teamed, not a good showing

Nothing suggests so far that King can beat pre Udon Luffy. Maybe something later on in the fight will, but nothing so far. 

I also believe this is the reason many are pre-emptively placing King above Katakuri, despite nothing suggesting this is the case. 

Katakuri: Future sight and awakening

King: cool hybrid ig?

Maybe he'll show something in future chapters, but nothing looks impressive at this point in time

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 19 | Winner 4 | Informative 1 | Creative 1 | Disagree 7 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 2, 2021)

King > Marco > Yamato > Katakuri

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## juju15112 (Oct 2, 2021)

King would destroy kat and can't count. That was 1 arc ago

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 3 | Dislike 4


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## Kobe (Oct 2, 2021)

Except Luffy didn't beat Katakuri.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Neutral 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## GiantForehead (Oct 2, 2021)

juju15112 said:


> King would destroy kat and can't count. That was 1 arc ago


Reverie


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## ice demon slayer (Oct 2, 2021)

King>Katakuri tho

Reactions: Informative 2


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## juju15112 (Oct 2, 2021)

GiantForehead said:


> Reverie


Reverie was 5 chapters and SH was not involve.


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## Vengarl (Oct 2, 2021)

Luffy with plot beat a King equivalent.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## Louis-954 (Oct 2, 2021)

Zoro > Kaido > King > Marco > Beckman

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 16 | Winner 2


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Oct 2, 2021)

No shit Sherlock.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kishido (Oct 2, 2021)

Luffy = Kaidou = Zoro > King > Marco > Yamato and Katakuri > Law and Kidd > Killer = Hawkins = Apoo = Drake >=  Queen  = Who is Who = Jinbe  > Jack

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 5 | Tier Specialist 9


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## Vengarl (Oct 2, 2021)

Kishido said:


> Luffy = Kaidou = Zoro > King > Marco > Yamato and Katakuri > Law and Kidd > Killer = Hawkins = Apoo = Drake >=  Queen  = Who is Who = Jinbe  > Jack


I never know if you're kidding or not

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 6


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## Eustathios (Oct 2, 2021)

First mistake is assuming King, Katakuri and Marco are equivalent because of their position.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5 | Winner 2 | Creative 1 | Disagree 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 2, 2021)

lives rent free

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Oda Report (Oct 2, 2021)

GiantForehead said:


> Zoro stans
> 
> Luffy beat a King equivalent 2 arcs ago, and for some that's hard to stomach. So far King has shown nothing special. In fact, he's been a bit disappointing. Marco held him off despite being tag teamed, not a good showing
> 
> ...



This thread fails for the fact that Luffy hasn't fought an equivalent to King....Kat isnt equivalent power vary's among chars. We haven't even see King fight fully.....King is fighting a Zoro who unlike pre-Udon Luffy couldn't permanently damage kaidou with broken bones...Zoro was the 1st char to make kaidou fear of damage and dodge.

It was Luffy WHO had to catch up to Zoro and get in the game of damaging kaidou.
Not surprised seeing how both Luffy and Zoro's goals on there way to end game puts them above entry-level yonkou, this tug of war of power between Luffy and his right hand isn't nothing new and yall should of came to accept it when Dark King silvers was introduced, Zoro is in that power talk regardless of yalls feelings. 

So Kat < King just with narrative.
King cooking up in the skys tonight.

Take the story for what it is and make sure you react with ya feels but remember canon > ya feels

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Creative 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## yantos (Oct 2, 2021)

You don't get to call people out when your argument is as baseless as it can get.
King > Katakuri has a sound logic, he is giving a tough time to someone who has comparable feats to a stronger version of luffy than the one katakuri fought which is post Udon (pre AdCoC luffy), it can be right it can be wrong but there is logic to it.
what is your argument ? "Kings equivalent" give me the manga panel that compares King to Kata and makes them equals. if it's because they are second in command to a yonko then I can use the same Logic as you and make him Marco's equivalent, see how silly this seems ?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4 | Neutral 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Duhul10 (Oct 2, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> King > Marco > Yamato > Katakuri

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lawliet (Oct 2, 2021)

GiantForehead said:


> Marco held him off despite being tag teamed, not a good showing


This stuff right there needs to stop right here. Marco did not hold him off and Queen. Marco slowly lost to King and Queen. Holding off means Marco successfully held them until they decided that they cant get past him , but that wasn't the case. He was on the floor beaten when they were completely fine. 

Also King showed insane feats in just 2 secs. He was able to blitz the entire floor. He was able to send a Zoro a huge distance twice. Keep in mind Zoro was also attacking. Not many people can overpower Zoro's attacks like that lol. Even Kaidou lost in a clash against Zoro. Not same circumstances but you know. 

King > Katakuri easily. Katakuri got nothing that can put a beast like King down unless King literally lets him rain on him which is not gonna happpen. Unlike Katakuri who was relying on Future Sight to dodge, King is actually you know, insanely fast and can dodge things easily. Even Luffy said if the person is not fast enough, FS doesn't matter. I'm pretty sure King will overpower Katakuri eventually.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Louis-954 (Oct 2, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> This thread fails for the fact that Luffy hasn't fought an equivalent to King....Kat isnt equivalent power vary's among chars. We haven't even see King fight fully.....King is fighting a Zoro who unlike pre-Udon Luffy couldn't permanently damage kaidou with broken bones...Zoro was the 1st char to make kaidou fear of damage and dodge.
> 
> *It was Luffy WHO had to catch up to Zoro and get in the game of damaging kaidou.*
> Not surprised seeing how both Luffy and Zoro's goals on there way to end game puts them above entry-level yonkou,* this tug of war of power between Luffy and his right hand isn't nothing new* and yall should of came to accept it when Dark King silvers was introduced, Zoro is in that power talk regardless of yalls feelings.
> ...


Blatantly false. Luffy damaged Kaido first and has damaged Kaido more times than Zoro. Zoro has indeed scarred Kaido and was the first to force him to dodge, but don't try and change the narrative and rewrite history to fit how you feel about Zoro.

There's no "tug of war" going on. Luffy has a much higher bounty and much higher quality scalps on his resume than Zoro does.

Buggy > Cabaji
Kuro > Buchi & Sham
Arlong > Hatchan
Crocodile > Daz Bones
Enel > Ohm & Braham
Foxy > Groggy Monsters
Lucci & Blueno > Beating just Kaku
Moriah > Ryuuma
Hody = Hyouzou, I suppose. But even then, Luffy fought his opponent underwater.
Caesar > Monet
Doflamingo > Pica
Cracker > Zoro chilling in Wano undercover
Katakuri > Zoro chilling in Wano undercover
Kaido > King

You get the picture.

If you want to say that King is objectively stronger than Katakuri? That's fine, I'm not gonna argue with you. Ultimately, I expect King to look more impressive than Katakuri did, but lets not sprinkle bullshit on top of it and push false narratives.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1 | Neutral 1 | Disagree 2


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## MrPopo (Oct 2, 2021)

Kishido said:


> Luffy = Kaidou = Zoro > King > Marco > Yamato and Katakuri > Law and Kidd > Killer = Hawkins = Apoo = Drake >=  Queen  = Who is Who = Jinbe  > Jack


Sanji didn't even make the list

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Kishido (Oct 2, 2021)

Vengarl said:


> I never know if you're kidding or not



That's the magic

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 2, 2021)

Keep telling yourself that


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## Oda Report (Oct 2, 2021)

Louis-954 said:


> Blatantly false.



You been wrong and bias against Zoro for years in favor of Luffy not understanding that you are doing Luffy a disservice.
Most of you OL don't even understand these chars. lol



Louis-954 said:


> *Zoro has indeed scarred Kaido and was the first to force him to dodge,* but don't try and change the narrative and rewrite history to fit how you feel about Zoro.



Thanks for agreeing with me and the story, no history to be made you already agreed your hate just wont let you move on gracfully.

Luffy had to catch up. 



Louis-954 said:


> There's no "tug of war" going on. Luffy has a much higher bounty and much higher quality scalps on his resume than Zoro does.



Did your hate really kill that many brain cells that you really ran back to bounties? with the mountain of evidence that suggest you should be a little more bright at this point in the game,  No wonder why you cant see the tug of war between Luffy and Zoro. I'm worried for yall  after all these years of studying One Piece.



Louis-954 said:


> Arlong > Hatchan
> Crocodile > Daz Bones
> Enel > Ohm & Braham
> Lucci & Blueno > Beating just Kaku
> ...



Please don't focus on what you want to see in the picture and focus on the whole picture.

You do know there is a story in play right?

Using your small logic.

You do know that Mihawk > Majority of guys Luffy fought.

When the hate dont work they start telling lies.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 3 | Dislike 2


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 2, 2021)

GiantForehead said:


> Nothing suggests so far that King can beat pre Udon Luffy.


Let's spell it out for you then

Pre Udon Luffy got one shotted by Kaido and was unable to damage him at all
Rooftop Zoro did not get one shotted by Kaido and was able to cut him, overpower his attack and scar him permanently

King is fighting and overpowering Zoro. So it's pretty clear that he'd beat pre Udon Luffy

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## Nardoguey (Oct 2, 2021)

I agree 
Zoro fans are annoying

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 3


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## walter18x (Oct 2, 2021)

Zoro solid high diff king was obvious
Only yonkous and admirals can mid diff yc1 people

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Louis-954 (Oct 2, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> You been wrong and bias against Zoro for years in favor of Luffy not understanding that you are doing Luffy a disservice.
> Most of you OL don't even understand these chars. lol
> 
> 
> ...


How would you know I've been "biased against Zoro for years" when you haven't even been here for a year yourself?  Classic Oda Report. 

I don't hate the character at all. In fact he's one of my favorites. I have no problem giving credit where credit is due and I don't deny what's on panel for everyone to see. I simply have a sober, unbiased approach to analyzing what I see. Unlike you, I don't have an emotional attachment to the character, so there's no agenda to push and I'm able to see things clearly.

What did Luffy have to "catch up" to exactly? You said he didn't damage Kaido first. That's just demonstrably false. If you had instead said, "he has to catch up in forcing him to dodge" or "he has to catch up in scarring him" you'd have a point and I wouldn't disagree, but that isn't what you said. Instead you blatantly lied to elevate your character and push a false narrative. Here's another truth for you, Big Mom had to tell Kaido to dodge Zoro, but Kaido himself -chose- to start dodging Luffy's attacks 

There's no hate from me. I enjoy both characters equally. I'm the first one to check Luffy fans when they start spouting nonsense too. It just so happens that you are the one that requires checking right now. Yes, I brought up bounties, but that's not the ONLY thing I brought up. I come prepared with multiple arguments.

I am focusing on the whole picture which is why I took you through nearly the entire story to date comparing their scalp resumes.

Yea, I understand that Mihawk is above a majority of those characters, but can you remind me when Zoro beat Mihawk?  I seem to have missed that chapter. If you could link it for me it that'd be fantastic! I'd love to read that fight and adjust my opinion and fact-checking accordingly. Thanks in advance!

Furthermore, if Mihawk is Zoro's best scalp... Luffy has a lot of really good ones coming up too. Blackbeard, Akainu, Big Mom (possibly). Zoro's gonna need more than Mihawk on his resume if he wants to appear more impressive by the end of the story.

What lies did I tell exactly? Specifically quote the lie I told and explain in detail how it's a lie. I've only reiterated what's on panel and available for everyone to read. I was unaware tbst

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## forkandspoon (Oct 2, 2021)

Flying DFs have been hyped since alibaster…. We are finally seeing why

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Kishido (Oct 2, 2021)

forkandspoon said:


> Flying DFs have been hyped since alibaster…. We are finally seeing why



Yeah that's the reason for sure

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Louis-954 (Oct 2, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> You been wrong and bias against Zoro for years in favor of Luffy not understanding that you are doing Luffy a disservice.


Hell, you yourself have even given positive ratings to PLENTY of my Zoro posts.  now you're here playing games pretending I'm biased.

All to push your silly narrative. Smh.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Quipchaque (Oct 2, 2021)

GiantForehead said:


> Zoro stans
> 
> Luffy beat a King equivalent 2 arcs ago, and for some that's hard to stomach. So far King has shown nothing special. In fact, he's been a bit disappointing. Marco held him off despite being tag teamed, not a good showing
> 
> ...



Zoro slicing up Kaido and King matches him. How is that not impressive...?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## OG sama (Oct 2, 2021)

People are still downplaying Katakuri even though he pretty much threw the damn fight with Luffy and had Luffy beat 99% of the battle. Luffy literally ran out the damn mirror world twice.

Like… what don’t you guys understand? This is a children’s story, Luffy absolutely could not be allowed to die against Katakuri even though logically he should have died a couple times over, put King in Katakuris position and it’s the same damn thing.

Reactions: Like 8 | Disagree 1


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## Togs (Oct 2, 2021)

Funny thing is the only YC who can be hyped through rooftop feat is Katakuri. Luffy in base dodged Thunder Bagua that means Katakuri who is faster than base Luffy and can shape shift his body would dodge Thunder Bagua without a scratch.

King can't be hyped through rooftop feat. Zoro scarred Kaido doesn't mean King can scar Kaido too. He's not pure swordsman so King probably doesn't have ryuo.  Zoro scarred Kaido also doesn't explain how King would dodge Thunder Bagua with his poor CoO or resist Thunder Bagua  when Marco knee drop which is way weaker than Thunder Bagua hurt King that bad.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 2, 2021)

OG sama said:


> People are still downplaying Katakuri even though he pretty much threw the damn fight with Luffy and had Luffy beat 99% of the battle. Luffy literally ran out the damn mirror world twice.
> 
> Like… what don’t you guys understand? This is a children’s story, Luffy absolutely could not be allowed to die against Katakuri even though logically he should have died a couple times over, put King in Katakuris position and it’s the same damn thing.


Luffy won. Move on.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Oct 2, 2021)

King right now is definitely weaker then Marco and maybe stronger then Kata, which doesn’t mean much because Kata should have been the weakest FM.


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## OG sama (Oct 2, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Luffy won. Move on.


He won so we ignore the circumstances that went in to him winning?

Im not even surprised that is all you have to say on the matter, you don’t care much for Kata and that’s been apparent for a long time.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Empathy (Oct 2, 2021)

King’s at least been making steps in the right direction with the more recent chapters. Best-case realistic scenario is that he proves to be definitively stronger than Katakuri.


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## Oda Report (Oct 2, 2021)

Louis-954 said:


> How would you know I've been "biased against Zoro for years" when you haven't even been here for a year yourself?  Classic Oda Report.



Oh but I have.



Louis-954 said:


> I don't hate the character at all. In fact he's one of my favorites. I have no problem giving credit where credit is due and I don't deny what's on panel for everyone to see. I simply have a sober, unbiased approach to analyzing what I see. Unlike you, I don't have an emotional attachment to the character, so there's no agenda to push and I'm able to see things clearly.



Save it. you just like this thread cant call anyone out.
We are not going to do this. Your history here is written all over these boards, and I'm cutting the fat out of this.



Louis-954 said:


> What did Luffy have to "catch up" to exactly?



Having Kaidou take Luffy's attack power as a legit threat...unlike Zoro who Big Mom even noted to kaidou to avoid Zoro, for fear of damage unlike Luffy, Luffy needed to catch up. Zoro was able to permanently damage Kaidou with broken bones.

here is another L



Louis-954 said:


> I am focusing on the whole picture which is why I took you through nearly the entire story to date comparing their scalp resumes.



Which was a fail and didnt prove anything, showed me how short sighted you still are when it comes to this simple story.



Louis-954 said:


> Yea, I understand that Mihawk is above a majority of those characters, but can you remind me when Zoro beat Mihawk?


Neither did Luffy who beat those guys you listed as if they all out class Zoro foes.

Even now with Kaidou, Luffy had to catch up to Zoro.


Louis-954 said:


> Furthermore, if Mihawk is Zoro's best scalp... Luffy has a lot of really good ones coming up too. Blackbeard, Akainu, Big Mom (possibly). Zoro's gonna need more than Mihawk on his resume if he wants to appear more impressive by the end of the story.



Mihawk is in good EOS company, your bias wont change that. Big Mom wont make it past Wano as a real threat, her or kaidou wont hold a candle to Shanks who Mihawk is currently waiting for Zoro to become stronger then in order to be surpassed.

Also Zoro had good showing vs Big Mom on the rooftop as well at this point no need to even possible bring her up but ya bias. LMAO

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Oda Report (Oct 2, 2021)

Louis-954 said:


> Hell, you yourself have even given positive ratings to PLENTY of my Zoro posts.  now you're here playing games pretending I'm biased.
> 
> All to push your silly narrative. Smh.



Proves I still got hope for you.

My rehabilitation process has always been A1, for bias posters like ya-self.


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## MO (Oct 2, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Let's spell it out for you then
> 
> Pre Udon Luffy got one shotted by Kaido and was unable to damage him at all
> Rooftop Zoro did not get one shotted by Kaido and was able to cut him, overpower his attack and scar him permanently
> ...


so would the scabbards beat pre udon Luffy too since they were damaging and overpowering kaido? and when did zoro overpower his attack?

Reactions: Like 5


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## lightcrowler (Oct 2, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Let's spell it out for you then
> 
> Pre Udon Luffy got one shotted by Kaido and was unable to damage him at all
> Rooftop Zoro did not get one shotted by Kaido and was able to cut him, overpower his attack and scar him permanently
> ...


So Kinemon beats pre Udon Luffy.
Good to know.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 2, 2021)

OG sama said:


> He won so we ignore the circumstances that went in to him winning?
> 
> Im not even surprised that is all you have to say on the matter, you don’t care much for Kata and that’s been apparent for a long time.


 

I love Katakuri. His design, his powers. That has nothing to do with this. Please.

Luffy beat him fair and square. Snakeman + future sight proved too much for the mochi man.


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## Togs (Oct 2, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> I love Katakuri. His design, his powers. That has nothing to do with this. Please.
> 
> Luffy beat him fair and square. Snakeman + future sight proved too much for the mochi man.


It's the opposite. Katakuri purposely didn't use Buzzcut, his strongest attack outside Mogura when he fought base Luffy to give Luffy a chance. Katakuri would have beaten Luffy way sooner with FS or not had Katakuri used Buzzcut from the start.

Katakuri also purposely let Luffy used Snakeman and even with Snakeman Katakuri was the one who stood first while Luffy was still recovering from the effect of Snakeman. Katakuri could have attacked Luffy when he stood in front of Luffy who just recovered from the effect of Snakeman.

If Luffy used Snakeman and FS from the start, Luffy would have ,lost 100%. In the dual exchange with Katakuri who was fresh, he would have tanked Luffy King CObra while Luffy would have lost haki from using Snakeman+taking Katakuri Buzzcut therefore he would have fallen down first and can't move afterward.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 2, 2021)

yantos said:


> You don't get to call people out when your argument is as baseless as it can get.
> King > Katakuri has a sound logic, he is giving a tough time to someone who has comparable feats to a stronger version of luffy than the one katakuri fought which is post Udon (pre AdCoC luffy), it can be right it can be wrong but there is logic to it.
> what is your argument ? "Kings equivalent" give me the manga panel that compares King to Kata and makes them equals. if it's because they are second in command to a yonko then I can use the same Logic as you and make him Marco's equivalent, see how silly this seems ?


Zoro doesnt have comparable feats to luffy though

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 3


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 2, 2021)

Togs said:


> It's the opposite. Katakuri purposely didn't use Buzzcut, his strongest attack outside Mogura when he fought base Luffy to give Luffy a chance. Katakuri would have beaten Luffy way sooner with FS or not had Katakuri used Buzzcut from the start.


I'm not arguing whether Katakuri could hav ebeaten Luffy earlier or not. He probably should have.


Togs said:


> Katakuri also purposely let Luffy used Snakeman and even with Snakeman Katakuri was the one who stood first while Luffy was still recovering from the effect of Snakeman. Katakuri could have attacked Luffy when he stood in front of Luffy who just recovered from the effect of Snakeman.


Did he fall before Luffy or not?


Togs said:


> If Luffy used Snakeman and FS from the start, Luffy would have ,lost 100%. In the dual exchange with Katakuri who was fresh, he would have tanked Luffy King CObra while Luffy would have lost haki from using Snakeman+taking Katakuri Buzzcut therefore he would have fallen down first and can't move afterward.


Luffy took a hundred more lethal hits than Katakuri in their fight and your argument is that Katakuri will outlast him?  

We already saw Katakuri not having enough firepower to put down Luffy, and Luffy having enough firepower to put down Katakuri.


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## yantos (Oct 2, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> Zoro doesnt have comparable feats to luffy though


Yeah, sure.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Canute87 (Oct 2, 2021)

GiantForehead said:


> Zoro stans
> 
> Luffy beat a King equivalent 2 arcs ago, and for some that's hard to stomach. So far King has shown nothing special. In fact, he's been a bit disappointing. Marco held him off despite being tag teamed, not a good showing
> 
> ...


If King stabbed his own backside as well  Zoro could pull off a win.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Grinningfox (Oct 2, 2021)

OG sama said:


> He won so we ignore the circumstances that went in to him winning?
> 
> Im not even surprised that is all you have to say on the matter, you don’t care much for Kata and that’s been apparent for a long time.


Any threat to Marco is downplayed


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## Canute87 (Oct 2, 2021)

OG sama said:


> People are still downplaying Katakuri even though he pretty much threw the damn fight with Luffy and had Luffy beat 99% of the battle. Luffy literally ran out the damn mirror world twice.
> 
> Like… what don’t you guys understand? This is a children’s story, Luffy absolutely could not be allowed to die against Katakuri even though logically he should have died a couple times over, put King in Katakuris position and it’s the same damn thing.


Everybody should be like katakuri and stab themselves in the middle of a fight.

Mofos clearly don't understand how much a plot driven event can fuck up a powerscale.

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Mylesime (Oct 2, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> Zoro doesnt have comparable feats to luffy though



One of the funniest thing in this whole debate?
How we conveniently ignore that Luffy just pulled off a feat on par with Shanks, Newgate, Roger, Big Mom and Kaido last chapter.
The dude just split the sky..... Yonkou style.
But nope he has no superior feats.


Hype and portrayal are handy all of a sudden, hum?


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## A Optimistic (Oct 2, 2021)

King > Katakuri 

Zoro > WCI Luffy

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 4 | Tier Specialist 3


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 2, 2021)

yantos said:


> Yeah, sure.


One fought toe to toe with a yonkou for an extended period of time, split the sky, defeated two yonkou commanders. One scarred a yonkou and slowed down an extremely strong attack for a second and then got saved.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TheOmega (Oct 2, 2021)

GiantForehead said:


> Zoro stans
> 
> Luffy beat a King equivalent 2 arcs ago, and for some that's hard to stomach. So far King has shown nothing special. In fact, he's been a bit disappointing. Marco held him off despite being tag teamed, not a good showing
> 
> ...


Luffy ain't beat Katakuri, Katakuri threw the fight. People fail to understand that and that's what's got their tierlists all fucked up

Reactions: Like 1


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## Oda Report (Oct 2, 2021)

King isn't overrated.

King is underrated even the Zoro fans underrated King.

King being this strong is a truly great for us readers.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Great Potato (Oct 2, 2021)

I actually don't blame this one on the Zoro fans, at least not entirely.

Katakuri's image took a hard hit when Oda had post-WCI Luffy get fodderized by base Kaido, and it didn't help his prestige any when Oda decided to give even Queen a notably higher bounty. If you take Act 1 Luffy vs Kaido at face value then it's hard to give Katakuri the nod over characters who have proven they can mess with the emperors and not be easily folded.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kobe (Oct 2, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> I actually don't blame this one on the Zoro fans, at least not entirely.
> 
> Katakuri's image took a hard hit when Oda had post-WCI Luffy get fodderized by base Kaido, and it didn't help his prestige any when Oda decided to give even Queen a notably higher bounty. If you take Act 1 Luffy vs Kaido at face value then it's hard to give Katakuri the nod over characters who have proven they can mess with the emperors and not be easily folded.


Katakuri never fought a Yonko though. These indirect assumptions are misleading when Katakuri would have killed Luffy with no PIS involved, similar to how Kaido one-shotted Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Oct 2, 2021)

So who’s gonna make the “the real reason we underrate King?” Thread? That’d be a lot more interesting.

King is proving himself each chapter. When Marco was fighting them both I definitely didn’t think King and Queen were impressive, but King pushing Zoro as hard as he is already is only making King look good. We know what Zoro can do already. The issue is however good King does, Queen continues to get scaled to him while doing nothing. The fan base guilty of that is the issue. I’m pretty sure the actual Queen fan base is a puddle.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 2, 2021)

Conxc said:


> So who’s gonna make the “the real reason we underrate King?” Thread? That’d be a lot more interesting.
> 
> King is proving himself each chapter. When Marco was fighting them both I definitely didn’t think King and Queen were impressive, but King pushing Zoro as hard as he is already is only making King look good. We know what Zoro can do already. The issue is however good King does, Queen continues to get scaled to him while doing nothing. The fan base guilty of that is the issue. I’m pretty sure the actual Queen fan base is a puddle.


We don't know what zoro can do in a 1 on 1 battle at all. His last two 1 on 1s were pica and a nerfed killer......

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Conxc (Oct 2, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> We don't know what zoro can do in a 1 on 1 battle at all. His last two 1 on 1s were pica and a nerfed killer......


Killer wasn’t nerfed. His base stats shouldn’t have been altered. He didn’t have his weapons of choice, but Zoro was also without Shusui and in a 1v2. Nice try though.

Anyway, his rooftop performance is indisputable. If you’re still trying to downplay/belittle it at this point you can argue with yourself.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Freechoice (Oct 2, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Let's spell it out for you then
> 
> Pre Udon Luffy got one shotted by Kaido and was unable to damage him at all
> Rooftop Zoro did not get one shotted by Kaido and was able to cut him, overpower his attack and scar him permanently
> ...



This is when the opportune selective use of power discrepancies comes into play. 

For example

- In MF, a preskip-Luffy-without-haki successfully defended himself against a hit from transformed Sengoku. 

- At the start of EL, Lucci nonchalantly destroyed Zoro and Luffy. 

These are properly identified as plot power discrepancies by the OL. However, when it comes to Zoro, this concept is thrown out the window. It is now being utilised to advance the Z Children's prejudices. 

The hypocrisy shown by that select group of individuals here is simply hilarious

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 1 | Winner 3 | Creative 2 | Disagree 1


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## Bonney (Oct 2, 2021)

Katakuri was nerfed without Mogura, it was his main weapon, it's like taking Kaido's Kanobo away. Luffy is durable with blunt force, Katakuri had to rely on it majorly, he also had to cop a bunch of damage from Gear 4th when he lost his cool, a plot based free shot. Fresh with all weapons at his disposal he would beat end of WCI Luffy high difficulty. Snakeman was the only thing that put Luffy at YC1 level in a real sense.

King is about the same level as Kata, he focus' on durability, raw power and strength, while Katakuri is all about evasion and speedy tricks with his DF. 

The overrating comes from 2 things. First the gap between Katakuri / King and their captains is not as big as believed. This is all because of the beatings Queen & Luffy took from Big Mom & Kaido. Queen tried to attack a Yonko headon recklessly, that was dumb as hell. He didn't use Hybrid or any of his weapons. Luffy lost his cool and couldn't think straight. We saw what he could do with future sight when he partly dodged the Bagura in base.

It overflows into the idea of Yonko being far above Admirals with some of the Yonko set. The gap isn't as big as they want to believe. 

Zoro fans want him to always be equal to Luffy, and they feel threatened by Yamato both joining the crew, but having an impressive showing against Hybrid Kaido. It's desperation to try and make sure Zoro is placed far above Katakuri & that level. Him having trouble with Apoo, Hawkins stalemating Killer (who did okay on the Roof) do show that the Rooftop group were overhyped, however so were the Yonko themselves.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Winner 3 | Disagree 1


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## Heart Over Blade (Oct 2, 2021)

GiantForehead said:


> Zoro stans


Exactly.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## juju15112 (Oct 2, 2021)

Serenity said:


> Katakuri was nerfed without Mogura, it was his main weapon, it's like taking Kaido's Kanobo away. Luffy is durable with blunt force, Katakuri had to rely on it majorly, he also had to cop a bunch of damage from Gear 4th when he lost his cool, a plot based free shot. Fresh with all weapons at his disposal he would beat end of WCI Luffy high difficulty. Snakeman was the only thing that put Luffy at YC1 level in a real sense.
> 
> King is about the same level as Kata, he focus' on durability, raw power and strength, while Katakuri is all about evasion and speedy tricks with his DF.
> 
> ...


Everything you just said is nonesense. Katakuri couldn't hit Luffy with that weapon to save his life and needed his sister help. 

King is about speed to which we just seen from his hybrid blitzing speed.

Rooftop luffy is stronger than beginning of Wano Luffy. You forget him training his body and haki in Odon. Wtf are you saying. Luffy got neg diff by Kaido.

The yonkous are not far above Admirals.

Why tf would Zoro fans feel threatened by Yamato? What crack are you smoking. I want Yamato to join.

Luffy literally got destroyed by Apoo. Zoro 1 shotted Killer with a low level move while getting jumped

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Oda Report (Oct 3, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Exactly.



Fairy tail.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## TheOmega (Oct 3, 2021)

Katakuri LET LUFFY WIN.

Rooftop Luffy had a whole month of training from start of Wano Luffy plus his experience of getting bopped and barely managed to dodge T. Bagua

And yea Yonko > Admirals

Reactions: Agree 5 | Disagree 2


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## Mihawk (Oct 3, 2021)

The problem is yall overrate the shit out of Pre Udon Luffy , or more like his performance against Katakuri and Kaido at that time  is overrated as hell.

He got absolutely floored, cooked, crushed, decimated. He wasn’t using FS properly, and he was flustered mentally/emotionally. Fools seriously think King would get one-shotted by Base Kaido and be unable to inflict any damage at all on his dragon form?

Zoro can cut through Kaido’s hide and bleed him multiple times. He even left a scar across his hybrid form, and you think that King who is currently giving him the work, would be equal to the Luffy who couldn’t inflict damage on Kaido?

WCI Luffy is trash at this level, let’s face it.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | GODA 1 | Dislike 2


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## Corax (Oct 3, 2021)

GiantForehead said:


> Zoro stans
> 
> Luffy beat a King equivalent 2 arcs ago, and for some that's hard to stomach. So far King has shown nothing special. In fact, he's been a bit disappointing. Marco held him off despite being tag teamed, not a good showing
> 
> ...


Not exactly true. His speed and strength displayed are at least above dragon Kaido's wind and fire attacks and physicals by feats. It is safe to use post roof Zoro regardless of are you his fan or not. Roof Zoro easily reacted to all dragon Kaido's attacks and overpowered them thrice (and even negged some of them). King kinda almost blitzed Zoro and his wind/hybrid attacks slammed him out of the island.


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## Lmao (Oct 3, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> The problem is yall overrate the shit out of Pre Udon Luffy


There's nothing to overrate bro Pre-Udon Luffy is in King's league, he already fought the equivalent of King in WCI. The only people who deny this are those who think King is leagues above Katakuri for whatever reason.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Mihawk (Oct 3, 2021)

Lmao said:


> There's nothing to overrate bro Pre-Udon Luffy is in King's league, he already fought the equivalent of King in WCI. The only people who deny this are those who think King is leagues above Katakuri for whatever reason.


And he got dominated by Katakuri 

Pre Udon Luffy performed like fodder to a Yonko  he had no means to injure Kaido, whom King’s opponent did.

Luffy’s inconsistent and fluctuation in portrayal is to be blamed. I’m inclined to think King could’ve performed Better not because he is amazing, but bc that version of Luffy shat the bed so badly.

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## Klarionan (Oct 3, 2021)

Zoro has some of the worst fanboys, that is nothing new.

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## Lmao (Oct 3, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> And he got dominated by Katakuri


He had trouble with his FS, once he got the hang of it he was fighting Katakuri just fine. Even bodied him in a few exchanges:




Katakuri is YC1 thus directly comparable to King, even if the latter is stronger it's not by a huge margin, it's abundantly clear Pre-Udon Luffy can compete with King.



Mihawk said:


> Pre Udon Luffy performed like fodder to a Yonko  he had no means to injure Kaido, whom King’s opponent did.


Funny you mention Luffy performing like a fodder against Yonko when even  against Base Kaido. Back on Luffy though, Kaido  on the rooftop despite Luffy using FS to defend himself, the only difference here being that Luffy was calm and managed to see part of the attack coming as opposed to their previous encounter  after seeing Kaido target his nakama. We know FS requires the user to be calm in order to be used effectively - Luffy was anything but calm there.


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## Tenma (Oct 3, 2021)

Whether Katakuri was stronger than Luffy or not it really wasn't by a big enough margin to matter. The whole point of the fight was to surpass Katakuri, and best him by truly reaching his level.

Unless Zoro really does mid diff King by "getting serious" ike some of his stans are saying Kata's pretty much gonna be weaker than King unfortunately.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Fujitora (Oct 3, 2021)

Didn’t need a thread to state the obvious.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Six (Oct 3, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> King > Marco > Yamato > Katakuri

Reactions: Funny 14


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 3, 2021)

nice selfie bro

Reactions: Funny 3 | Creative 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Freechoice (Oct 3, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> nice selfie bro


What a lame comeback

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 3 | Dislike 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 3, 2021)

Freechoice said:


> What a lame comeback


fathead

Reactions: Funny 2 | Informative 1


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## Mrdude (Oct 4, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> The problem is yall overrate the shit out of Pre Udon Luffy , or more like his performance against Katakuri and Kaido at that time  is overrated as hell.
> 
> He got absolutely floored, cooked, crushed, decimated. He wasn’t using FS properly, and he was flustered mentally/emotionally. F*ools seriously think King would get one-shotted by Base Kaido and be unable to inflict any damage at all on his dragon form?*
> 
> ...



Why not? Thunder Bagua has put everyone it's hit to sleep including Law, Luffy and Zoro. It's Kaido's signature move that is the hardest hitting attack he has.

King got sliced by Zoro so cutting isn't the issue for him.






The problem is when you use a team battle vs Kaido and immediately assume Zoro is on the same level. Speed and power are just as important as having the right kind of Haki.

WCI Luffy is still relevant even now. The only person who he would not be able to beat is Kaido because of his tough skin which is why armament training became necessary. Otherwise nothing King has shown so far indicates that Luffy would have difficulty with.

Right now King is overpowering Zoro. It's not a matter of cutting ability or armament. Do you really think Marco would be able to hurt Kaido in dragon form like he did with King?

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## o0Shinthi0o (Oct 4, 2021)

I don't see King tossing around FS Luffy , let alone in his Snake man form . King has better ap than Katakuri but he should be slower than Kata .

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Mrdude (Oct 4, 2021)

Reminder that Pre Udon Luffy did this to Katakuri:





Zoro lacks the ability to do this type of thing especially against someone with an aerial advantage like King.


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## Mihawk (Oct 4, 2021)

Mrdude said:


> Why not? Thunder Bagua has put everyone it's hit to sleep including Law, Luffy and Zoro. It's Kaido's signature move that is the hardest hitting attack he has.


You guys aren’t getting what I’m saying.

WCI luffy got fodderised that’s my point. Yall can bring up not using FS or not having advanced CoA but that just proves a deficiency in performance on his part.

I’ve seen Luffy supporters constantly claim that Rooftop Luffy (pre adCoC) was miles ahead of WCI Luffy, and yet you guys come to the conclusion that King would get fodderised by Kaido? Please.

Kaido’s TB knocks out Law, Luffy, and Zoro, but let’s not act like WCI Luffy’s performance was comparable. Only when it’s convenient for the Luffy brigade I guess. Also, let’s not forget that Zoro wasn’t injured by Hakai before getting taken out, and that Law went on to fight Big Mom....but I guess we should ignore all that, along with the fact that Zoro was taking on copious amounts of damage in that fight; in fact, a lot of it was in defence of Luffy. He didn’t get one-shotted.




Mrdude said:


> King got sliced by Zoro so cutting isn't the issue for him.


And King fucking tanked it easily, just as he’s been tanking every attack coming his way from Marco and Zoro so far.

There’s levels to this, and assuming WCI Luffy is equal to King and current Zoro is laughable.


Mrdude said:


> The problem is when you use a team battle vs Kaido and immediately assume Zoro is on the same level. Speed and power are just as important as having the right kind of Haki.


The problem is you guys assuming all first mates are on the same level. Marco proved that wasn’t the case. Zoro’s cutting power, lethality, Haki, etc. With Enma gives him a massive advantage over that version of Luffy. 

You speak of a team battle...yes, some of Zoro’s opportunities were indeed generated by Law. But how many of the yonko’s attacks did he help stop? And how many times did he help cover his teammates’ back? Shit goes both ways.

All I hear are excuses about why WCI luffy isn’t weaker, such as lacking the skills currently possessed by the top Supernovas and FMs.


Mrdude said:


> WCI Luffy is still relevant even now.


Not the one who was getting floored by Katakuri and winning via PIS. Kaido showed he was irrelevant when he tossed him aside like an unborn child. It is relevant only as it pertains to that version of Luffy himself.

The problem was all of you thinking that would somehow mean the same would happen to every other first mate.


Mrdude said:


> The only person who he would not be able to beat is Kaido because of his tough skin which is why armament training became necessary.


Yes and hence he lacked the skill necessary which made him weaker 

WCI luffy was not some top tier fighter lol. Neither is King or Zoro, but at least they have the skill and durability to take and dish out more than WCI luffy.


Mrdude said:


> Otherwise nothing King has shown so far indicates that Luffy would have difficulty with.


He’s shown the ability to bypass Marco’s regeneration and cut off his wing while pushing him far. He’s shown the ability to overpower Zoro and to take his attacks which cut even Kaido, without too much of an issue. He’s shown in terms of durability, speed, and offensive ability that he would make a dangerous opponent for any version of Luffy before his training in Udon. To imply that WCI luffy wouldn’t have difficulty with King would be misguided; he has FS over him but that’s about it.


Mrdude said:


> Right now King is overpowering Zoro. It's not a matter of cutting ability or armament. Do you really think Marco would be able to hurt Kaido in dragon form like he did with King?



Yes and he would overpower WCI luffy in the same way. The same Luffy who was getting tossed and turned and sonned by Katakuri throughout their fight. King’s cutting ability and armament was strong enough to cut off Marco’s wing and even injure him over time. If Zoro could inflict damage and hurt Kaido, then why shouldn’t King be able to approximate him? You think he can’t even scratch Kaido like WCI Luffy?

And why wouldn’t Marco be able to hurt Dragon Kaido. Like what? That version of Kaido was getting hurt by Kidd and Zoro. Even Killer could bypass his skin in base. The Scabbards can do the same. You really think Marco wouldn’t be able to inflict damage on Kaido?

Either you have a severe underestimation of the Yonko first mates because of Luffy, or a severe overestimation of Luffy(that version)...likely both.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Maruo (Oct 4, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Pre Udon Luffy got one shotted by Kaido and was unable to damage him at all



This argument keeps being used against Pre-Udon Luffy and Katakuri regardless of how many times it's been disproven.

This really isn't that hard - Luffy didn't use his FS against Kaido ergo his performance isn't reflective of his or Katakuri's full power.

I'm not sure whether some people here haven't realized this or if they have and are continuing to use this argument disingenuously.



Mihawk said:


> WCI luffy got fodderised that’s my point. Yall can bring up not using FS or not having advanced CoA but that just proves a deficiency in performance on his part.



This logic doesn't make sense to me. Under most conditions, pre-Udon Luffy would have FS active and that would have made a big difference in his performance against Kaido. Just ignoring this because it's due to a "deficiency" makes it seem like pre-Udon Luffy is weaker than he actually is, which throws a bunch of other character power levels into confusion.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## TheOmega (Oct 4, 2021)

Maruo said:


> This argument keeps being used against Pre-Udon Luffy and Katakuri regardless of how many times it's been disproven.
> 
> This really isn't that hard - Luffy didn't use his FS against Kaido ergo his performance isn't reflective of his or Katakuri's full power.
> 
> ...




Except that Rooftop Luffy had a month to train, already experienced TB, used FS and STILL got bopped in the fuckin dome


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## Heart Over Blade (Oct 4, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> Except that Rooftop Luffy had a month to train, already experienced TB, used FS and STILL got bopped in the fuckin dome


Only base Luffy and he still reduced the damage to a point where it didn't hurt his later performance. Everyone who took a TB later either got sent packing or complained about how badly it hurt them

Reactions: Like 2


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## Maruo (Oct 4, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> Except that Rooftop Luffy had a month to train, already experienced TB, used FS and STILL got bopped in the fuckin dome



Luffy basically took no damage because he was able to partially avoid it by using FS? I mean, this is how we know for sure that FS would have made a big difference in the first round had he been able to use it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TheOmega (Oct 4, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Only base Luffy and he still reduced the damage to a point where it didn't hurt his later performance. Everyone who took a TB later either got sent packing or complained about how badly it hurt them





Maruo said:


> Luffy basically took no damage because he was able to partially avoid it by using FS? I mean, this is how we know for sure that FS would have made a big difference in the first round had he been able to use it.




So we gonna act like encountering the move before, getting muscles in jail and improving his CoA aren't factors in why he managed to survive the hit and I do mean hit cuz ya actin like he dodged it successfully lol

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Heart Over Blade (Oct 4, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> *So we gonna act like encountering the move before, getting muscles in jail and improving his CoA aren't factors in why he managed to survive the hit *and I do mean hit cuz ya actin like he dodged it successfully lol


Nice attempt to move the goalpost. It wasn't slick though.

You're acting like Luffy's weakest form partially dodging Kaidou's fastest attack and minimizing its damage is supposed to be big deal that somehow downplays Luffy. Both Kaidou and Luffy confirmed it was only a partial hit.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Mylesime (Oct 4, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> So we gonna act like encountering the move before, getting muscles in jail and improving his CoA aren't factors in why he managed to survive the hit and I do mean hit cuz ya actin like he dodged it successfully lol



Gear 4 counter balance all those prison gains..... and i'm being nice.

Kaido would have ultimately destroyed Luffy but that's true and appliable regarding every relevant character that faced him on the Rooftop so far. Yamato, Kidd, Killer, Law, etc nobody was able to significantly injure Kaido and most of them benefitiated from the fact that they teamed up to attack him.
Future sight is a game changer since it would have allowed Luffy to do what all the others did..... buy time.
Every single one of them would have been clapped 1 vs 1, unable to severly injure the Yonko.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Corax (Oct 4, 2021)

King isn't a glass canon. He took an attack that KO Killer. Killer isn't famous for dura I guess,but anyway this+ancient zoan+half giant race. King isn't Kaido but has to be decently tough.


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 4, 2021)

Maruo said:


> This argument keeps being used against Pre-Udon Luffy and Katakuri regardless of how many times it's been disproven.
> 
> This really isn't that hard - Luffy didn't use his FS against Kaido ergo his performance isn't reflective of his or Katakuri's full power.


No it's not. And the fact that he didn't use his FS shows weakness, inexperience, and lack of training. Which is something that somehow always gets overlooked.

Also, FS wasn't the reason Luffy failed to hurt Kaido at all. And it also wasn't the reason he got 1HKO.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mylesime (Oct 4, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Also, FS wasn't the reason Luffy failed to hurt Kaido at all. And it also wasn't the reason he got 1HKO.



Kaido has barely been injured so far, and most of the damage he suffered is due to the cumulative effort of the alliance rather than caused by a single fighter (Luffy will obviously change that)

It's 100% one of the reason he got OHKO so fast, since the power allowed him to avoid the same outcome on the Rooftop. 
Obviously if Kaido lands a clean hit with that technique it's light out as proven against Oden, and recently with Yamato despite her defenses....

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Maruo (Oct 4, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> No it's not. And the fact that he didn't use his FS shows weakness, inexperience, and lack of training. Which is something that somehow always gets overlooked.
> 
> Also, FS wasn't the reason Luffy failed to hurt Kaido at all. And it also wasn't the reason he got 1HKO.



I see what you're saying with the first part with Luffy being able to keep his cool on the Rooftop. That doesn't change the fact that he'd still be capable of using FS in the average scenario even pre-Udon.

As for the latter, he literally did avoid being OHKO'd by the exact same attack on the rooftop by using FS.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheOmega (Oct 4, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Nice attempt to move the goalpost. It wasn't slick though.
> 
> You're acting like Luffy's weakest form partially dodging Kaidou's fastest attack and minimizing its damage is supposed to be big deal that somehow downplays Luffy. Both Kaidou and Luffy confirmed it was only a partial hit.


Except that Rooftop Luffy has all those advantages over Kuri Luffy and still got hit.

Kuri Luffy gets bopped against Kaido no matter how you try to spin it.

Kaido is the WSC, not Loofy

This is why Rooftop Luffy got bopped too



Mylesime said:


> Gear 4 counter balance all those prison gains..... and i'm being nice.
> 
> Kaido would have ultimately destroyed Luffy but that's true and appliable regarding every relevant character that faced him on the Rooftop so far. Yamato, Kidd, Killer, Law, etc nobody was able to significantly injure Kaido and most of them benefitiated from the fact that they teamed up to attack him.
> Future sight is a game changer since it would have allowed Luffy to do what all the others did..... buy time.
> Every single one of them would have been clapped 1 vs 1, unable to severly injure the Yonko.


G4 runs out and then Loofy gets bopped like he did originally and like he did on the rooftop 

Kaido > all those nova scrubs. The point is ya'll gassin up Kuri Loofy usin a feat that he performed after a month of hard training to his physique and haki and after experiencing the very technique in question. And even then the fear wasn't really shit cuz he didn't even succeed in dodging it properly


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## Mylesime (Oct 4, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> G4 runs out and then Loofy gets bopped like he did originally and like he did on the rooftop
> 
> Kaido > all those nova scrubs. The point is ya'll gassin up Kuri Loofy usin a feat that he performed after a month of hard training to his physique and haki and after experiencing the very technique in question. And even then the fear wasn't really shit cuz he didn't even succeed in dodging it properly



Kaido would bitchslap every single one of them 1 vs 1 after a certain amount of time.
He's the WSC, heck Yamato in hybrid form and with a defensive move could not prevent taking damages against Raime Hakke.......
She would have fallen too without causing much damages.

The fact that Luffy got clapped with his strongest mode is not a detail, it's why many concluded that YFM were OS material for Kaido. Had he fallen in base nobody would have dared to say something so over the top. We would have simply noticed that he was jobbing like he often does.
That's the point. Luffy was nerfed, not at 100%, knowing that Luffy at the maximum of his abilities was the only version of the character comparable to a YFM ( Snakeman + Future Sight was the only time Luffy was on par with Katakuri in the mirror world).
Even at full strength it would have been a simple matter of time, let alone nerfed, which undoubtedly influenced the perception of their level.


You're overselling them prison gains tough.
I'm sure his base stats improved, but the main/significant improvement was his advanced armement which he did not use to.defend against thunder bagua on the Rooftop, he relied on...... Future Sight.

Double punishment.  Katakuri was nerfed, then Luffy was nerfed and somehow a FM is OS material..... Crazy stuff.
Most of us are slowly realizing that the whole thing doesn't make sense, the more  character that faced Kaido are struggling against the emperor's subordinates.....

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheOmega (Oct 4, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Kaido would bitchslap every single one of them 1 vs 1 after a certain amount of time.
> He's the WSC, heck Yamato in hybrid form and with a defensive move could not prevent taking damages....
> The fact that Luffy got clapped with his strongest move is not a detail, it's why many concluded that YFM were OS material for Kaido. Had he fallen in base nobody would have dared to say something so over the top.
> 
> ...


Luffy wasn't YFM level at Kuri is something I BEEN said people didn't believe me and now all of a sudden they don't understand what happened in Wano 

I ain't oversellin shit lol. He was training with seastone and was NOTICEABLY more muscular. He was also competing with Kidd and got lessons from CoA expert Yoda

The physical boost and the experience of getting TB'd before is what allowed him to have the physique and knowledge to recognize, react and to survive the hit. Without either of those he goes right back to sleep like back in Kuri

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheOmega (Oct 4, 2021)

Future Sight ain't gon save you if you ain't got the Physical Stats to properly defend yourself

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mylesime (Oct 4, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> Luffy wasn't YFM level at Kuri is something I BEEN said people didn't believe me and now all of a sudden they don't understand what happened in Wano
> 
> I ain't oversellin shit lol. He was training with seastone and was NOTICEABLY more muscular. He was also competing with Kidd and got lessons from CoA expert Yoda
> 
> The physical boost and the experience of getting TB'd before is what allowed him to have the physique and knowledge to recognize, react and to survive the hit. Without either of those he goes right back to sleep like back in Kuri





TheOmega said:


> Future Sight ain't gon save you if you ain't got the Physical Stats to properly defend yourself



Luffy had the physical stats needed tough that's the point, aka Gear 4.
Yeah you're overselling those prison gains:
Base Luffy post Udon would get physically mandhandled by Gear 4 pre Udon.

Muscles are nice and all, but the significant upgrade come with Haki and weaponry at this point in the journey.
And Luffy did not use Advanced CoA to avoid thunder bagua the second time.
Again Oda highlighted the effectiveness and usefullness of Advanced CoO....

When it comes to experiencing beforehand the technique,  i'm sure it helped, but just like for Yamato skills and abilities were the main factors. She knows everything about that move, heck she can replicate it, still got hit.....
For argument purpose Ussop can take as many Raime Hakke as he wants, he's still getting folded the next time if he survives.
Heck you highlighted it yourself with Rock Lee , he was insisting on the importance of having the physical abilities to react and do something about it, no matter the amount of intel one person has regarding a technique he needs to be actually able to defend against. Which was obviously the case for Luffy back then.

We agree that Luffy wasn't YFM level, however he wasn't OS material for a Yonkou either under optimal circumstances.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## TheOmega (Oct 4, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Luffy had the physical stats needed tough that's the point, aka Gear 4.
> Yeah you're overselling those prison gains:
> Base Luffy post Udon would get physically mandhandled by Gear 4 pre Udon.
> 
> ...


Nah. You gassin it up brodie.

Kuri Loofy got both his cheeks clapped

Rooftop Luffy managed to only get one cheek clapped

But either way

Both versions got fucked by Kaido 

Luffy that's fighting for his crew's sake is the strongest Luffy. That nikka went up to the WSC determined as hell  got slapped like a cheap ho and was forced into human trafficking. I ain't tryna hear no more speculation

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mylesime (Oct 4, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> Rooftop Luffy managed to only get one cheek clapped



Thanks to the use of Future Sight mainly tough.
That's the point out. Advanced CoO matters.



TheOmega said:


> Both versions got fucked by Kaido


Indeed.
There is level to this shit tough, one struggled a bit



TheOmega said:


> Luffy that's fighting for his crew's sake is the strongest Luffy. That nikka went up to the WSC determined as hell got slapped like a cheap ho and was forced into human trafficking. I ain't tryna hear no more speculation



Both were fighting for his crew's sake, the second version on top of his improvements was calm and collected which made all the difference.
Katakuri was untouchable, when he got mad..... got abused by the same opponent. Power without mastery ain't worth shit.

It's simple really it comes down to this:
If we agree that Luffy's future sight was more or less equal on both occasions.
Does his physical gains in jail make his base post version Udon significantly stronger than his Gear 4 pre Udon ?
That's what you're implying.....


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## Mihawk (Oct 4, 2021)

Maruo said:


> This logic doesn't make sense to me. Under most conditions, pre-Udon Luffy would have FS active and that would have made a big difference in his performance against Kaido. Just ignoring this because it's due to a "deficiency" makes it seem like pre-Udon Luffy is weaker than he actually is, which throws a bunch of other character power levels into confusion.



What doesn’t make sense to me is the idea that King would be unable to inflict damage on Kaido (meaning he would have no ad.CoA like WCI Luffy) and would get one-shotted like fodder. No one has still answered this query of mine. It’s likely that these are the same ppl whom think that all YC1s are equal and equal to WCI Luffy, and that someone like Marco would’ve gotten the same exact treatment. And I never placed Katakuri and pre udon luffy on the same level so yea...

It’s a deficiency on his part because that’s how he performed. If you guys are looking for a culprit for power levels getting thrown off kilter or into confusion, look no further than Luffy’s performance against Kaido at Kuri. It is always his inconsistency. On one hand, we have those whom claim that Udon training made Luffy far stronger than he was at Kuri because his Base was able to evade a TB with FS. And yet, it seems to me that you guys are also implying at the same time that he should’ve/would’ve/could’ve done the same thing in Kuri during their first go around.

I think we should just accept that either: 1) Kaido vastly outclassed and stomped that version of Luffy, or 2) it was an outlier that didn’t reflect his true strength.

Regardless of what view one takes, there is nothing that compels King to the same level of treatment just because that version of Luffy was dismissed so easily..

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Mihawk (Oct 4, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> We agree that Luffy wasn't YFM level, however he wasn't OS material for a Yonkou either under optimal circumstances.


If this is the view or conclusion, then it is fair and I agree @Maruo 

What I have beef with are folks whom automatically think King gets the same exact treatment cuz “YC1” level.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Mylesime (Oct 4, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> If this is the view or conclusion, then it is fair and I agree @Maruo
> 
> What I have beef with are folks whom automatically think King gets the same exact treatment cuz “YC1” level.



Feats serve the plot.
King can obviously hold his own for a while against Kaido. It's so obvious that it doesn't even need explanations......

*Recently fucking Momonuske was able under certain circumstances to hurt Kaido and avoid his "boro breath".



So Momo too shits on the commanders because of them feats?*



Those for whom feats are the end all be all should automatically put him above a number of characters i guess ,which would  quite simply be laughable....

When those feats were isolated, tough he did not make any sense in terms of the structure and organization of these empires and the whole "geopolitical" system in One Piece. Excluding the White Beard pirates ( it should have been enough  really) there weren't immediate contradictions with the performances of commanders on Wano  overall since they had not done anything ( Smoothie, Snack , King,etc). Everyone was simply labeled as fodder, as a joke character.
People simply concluded that Katakuri was shit, as well as most YC1 with the exception of Beckman and Marco sometimes and that was it...... Queen too was shit, and really that was it.

I guess Oda intended to portray the paramount war as a conflict between Newgate and his 12 fodders against the Mighty Marines.....


Now that King mainly, and Queen have been introduced in the battle, it doesn't add up, it can't hold.
King should not be a challenge against Zoro if that was the case.
Queen survived clashes and fights against Big Mom, Marco without any significant injuries, heck he received friendly fire from King and is still fine. We're talking about dozens of minutes here.....
How can the character be so weak if he's still standing despite direct combat against relevant opponents (Marco for example)?

Rather than admitting a bad take, i often see revisionist history aka "Queen got 2 shot by Big Mom", "Marco got ragdolled by Big Mom"....
The term "OS" doesn't mean anything anymore. When one equates what happened with Queen against Big Mom with Luffy's fate at Kuri......(indepedently from the circumstances)




Yonkou empire aren't strictly equal, however the discrepency between them needs to be reasonable, knowing how the military powers are embodied in One Piece : Zoro is fighting King, Sanji VS Queen, Jinbei vs WsW, Robin vs Black Maria, etc....
We all know who would have to take on King in case of direct conflict between Kaido and Big Mom.
Katakuri has to be comparable to some extent, otherwise the advantage would be significant. King woud be free of his moves, chain reaction, etc,etc

We have seen Marco, Joz and Vista  have honorable feats at Marineford and we have  now seen Marco against King and Queen.
Those characters interact.....
It seems unsustainable to claim that Queen would not be a challenge for Joz for example.
Specially now that we have seen Perospero offer a decent showcase at Onigashima. Or now that we have seen Jinbei fare against WsW (he too has feats against top tiers, Big Mom included)

It was mandatory in order for the story to make sense, but it's becoming more and more difficult to deny at this point.
Several characters currently on Onigashima would have been a factor on the Rooftop.
The more evidence we get, the more ridiculous claiming otherwise gets.

Those gaps aren't as big as proclaimed previously; The Yonkous don't shit on Admirals either.

Personally i gave up. Shit makes no sense.
Folks would say the craziest things to push forward an agenda....

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Eustathios (Oct 4, 2021)

In reality Oda probably didn't give a darn and wasn't even thinking about YCs, Katakuri or whatever when he drew Luffy vs Kaido. Just establish that Kaido is still far more powerful than him and that's it. He doesn't overthink stuff like people in the battledome do

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## Oda Report (Oct 4, 2021)

So when Zoro beats King, we forget all about his rooftop stuff and just say Zoro is WCI Luffy kat level or a bit below that?

OL:Yes

got it.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TheOmega (Oct 4, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> So when Zoro beats King, we forget all about his rooftop stuff and just say Zoro is WCI Luffy kat level or a bit below that?
> 
> OL:Yes
> 
> got it.


Nah we say he grew and surpassed Kang

Reactions: Like 1


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## Danyboy (Oct 4, 2021)

I wonder if there going to be thread named: "The real reason we underrate King"
I mean, we all know why it happens.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mrdude (Oct 4, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> You guys aren’t getting what I’m saying.
> 
> WCI luffy got fodderised that’s my point. Yall can bring up not using FS or not having advanced CoA but that just proves a deficiency in performance on his part.
> 
> ...


Well that’s what happens when you assume anyone getting cut by Zoro would  instantly get 1 shotted just because he managed to cut Kaido. The scabbards are all capable of doing the same thing yet none of them would convincingly beat a commander with ease. The only time Zoro managed a deep cut on Kaido was either when he used Asura or when he charged up Enma using all his Haki. Neither of which has happened yet.

Like I said, King has been sliced twice already. Once when their attacks clsshed and once at the beginning. So it’s not a armament issue. If King is still standing it’s because he is a Zoan which shouldn’t be surprising. The reason you guys have shch difficulty accepting this is because you’ve put Zoro on a pedestal.

Marco is a unique case because he took on 2 yc1 and came out alive. He was considered strong enough by the Gorosei to be a pseudo yonko. So no King does not compare as he was the one on the end of that beating.

Fights are not determine by who has the better AP. 


As for TB and Luffy getting 1 hit koed in his initial fight. FS was clearly not being used at the time.

Even current Luffy after all his training is barely able to avoid Thunder Bagua and nearly got one shotted again. Point is there are very few people capable of taking that attack without being completely destroyed. Even Yamato uses defensive abilities to avoi

Reactions: Winner 1


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## juju15112 (Oct 4, 2021)

Danyboy said:


> I wonder if there going to be thread named: "The real reason we underrate King"
> I mean, we all know why it happens.


If thats shown like mr. 1 and Katakuri.  Zoro has never said King is someone he needs to surpass.


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## Mihawk (Oct 4, 2021)

Mrdude said:


> Well that’s what happens when you assume anyone getting cut by Zoro would  instantly get 1 shotted just because he managed to cut Kaido.


What? I never assumed Zoro was gonna 1 shot King broski lmao


> The scabbards are all capable of doing the same thing yet none of them would convincingly beat a commander with ease.


Most of them would lose to an elite commander.


> The only time Zoro managed a deep cut on Kaido was either when he used Asura or when he charged up Enma using all his Haki. Neither of which has happened yet.


Point?


Mrdude said:


> Like I said, King has been sliced twice already. Once when their attacks clsshed and once at the beginning. So it’s not a armament issue. If King is still standing it’s because he is a Zoan which shouldn’t be surprising.


Yes King’s Zoan durability is a part of his overall strength. It was strong enough to withstand multiple attacks from Zoro with Enma, as well as multiple attacks from Marco. It will be strong enough to withstand WCI Luffy with G4.


Mrdude said:


> The reason you guys have shch difficulty accepting this is because you’ve put Zoro on a pedestal.


What pedestal have I placed him on? King is just formidable and it shows. On the other hand, you folks have placed Luffy on an insane pedestal after his “win” over Katakuri and with every “power up” only to have been proven wrong. Luffy wasn’t on Kaido’s level on the rooftop, nowhere even close. Just as he isn’t his equal now.


Mrdude said:


> Marco is a unique case because he took on 2 yc1 and came out alive. He was considered strong enough by the Gorosei to be a pseudo yonko. So no King does not compare as he was the one on the end of that beating.


Agreed. Marco is just that impressive. Yes he is better than King...but he is also much better than the version of Luffy who fought Katakuri and Katakuri himself.


Mrdude said:


> Fights are not determine by who has the better AP.


Sure


Mrdude said:


> As for TB and Luffy getting 1 hit koed in his initial fight. FS was clearly not being used at the time.


Ok.


Mrdude said:


> Even current Luffy after all his training is barely able to avoid Thunder Bagua and nearly got one shotted again. Point is there are very few people capable of taking that attack without being completely destroyed. Even Yamato uses defensive abilities to avoi


That’s fine. Kaido is just vastly above all these characters on an individual level and I think we can leave it at that.


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## Rp4lyf (Oct 4, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Kaido has barely been injured so far, and most of the damage he suffered is due to the cumulative effort of the alliance rather than caused by a single fighter (Luffy will obviously change that)
> 
> It's 100% one of the reason he got OHKO so fast, since the power allowed him to avoid the same outcome on the Rooftop.
> Obviously if Kaido lands a clean hit with that technique it's light out as proven against Oden, and recently with Yamato despite her defenses....


Most of the damage Kaido has recieved HAS in facr been by a single fighter.

Not to mention that Hybrid Kaido was dodging Base Luffy attacks in 1 v 1 in chapter 1009, before Luffy got Advanced CoC, indicating that Luffy was doing real damage without Adv CoC.

Oda has stated in kaido's Vivre card that Kaido had not been pushed so hard by a foe( Luffy) since Oden's fight. It refferred to chapter 1003 and 1010.

So you are in fact wrong on many fronts.


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 4, 2021)

Rp4lyf said:


> Oda has stated in kaido's Vivre card that Kaido had not been pushed so hard by a foe( Luffy) since Oden's fight.


That's a mistranslation


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## Rp4lyf (Oct 4, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> That's a mistranslation


The correct translatiom still hyped Luffy so it does not matter either way. The correct translation still refers to Luffy with the pictures of chapter 1003 and 1010.

It states that the existant of a strong foe gets kaido's heart beating.


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## Perrin (Oct 4, 2021)

Oda would draw them clashing equally just as he drew admirals, yonkou and warlords clashing equally.


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## Oda Report (Oct 4, 2021)

Mrdude said:


> Well that’s what happens when you assume anyone getting cut by Zoro would  instantly get 1 shotted just because he managed to cut Kaido. The scabbards are all capable of doing the same thing yet none of them would convincingly beat a commander with ease. The only time Zoro managed a deep cut on Kaido was either when he used Asura or when he charged up Enma using all his Haki. Neither of which has happened yet.



You need to put names to these posters otherwise your argument gets lost n the shuffle.



Mrdude said:


> Marco is a unique case because he took on 2 yc1 and came out alive. He was considered strong enough by the Gorosei to be a pseudo yonko. So no King does not compare as he was the one on the end of that beating.



Marco stalled (not really a feat with that DF power) King and Queen yet still got folded, then started questioning if God Exist. I didn't know King took a beatin by Marco before fighting Zoro. If that's the case King Full health >> Zoro. lol


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## Mrdude (Oct 4, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> What? I never assumed Zoro was gonna 1 shot King broski lmao
> 
> Most of them would lose to an elite commander.
> 
> ...



The assumption most people made from the time he beat Katakuri to the time he entered Wano was that he would beat any YC1 at his level. Even in a situation where Luffy is outmatched, he would eventually find a way to win as he always has. 

So no it's not that Luffy hasn't proven himself against an elite commander. Luffy more so than anyone deserved to be on that pedestal because of what he has accomplished.

Zoro's situation is different because he hasn't had the chance to fight anyone of that level. He hasn't fought a single commander until now. Which is why the expectation for him isn't there.


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## Heart Over Blade (Oct 5, 2021)

TheOmega said:


> *Except that Rooftop Luffy has all those advantages over Kuri Luffy and still got hit.*
> 
> Kuri Luffy gets bopped against Kaido no matter how you try to spin it.
> 
> ...



So base Luffy didn't completely dodge TB, what of it? Are we supposed to applaud Kaidou for landing a partial hit with his fastest attack on Luffy's weakest form from two power ups ago?  Too bad the damage was only minor. You're still trying to make it out to be some big deal and failing at it. You're emphasizing pointless things that no one is disputing. Sounds like a concession that it didn't land cleanly.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Oct 5, 2021)

Nobody is overrating King. We saw Zoro was able to land some hits and decently defend against Kaido. We also see how difficult of a time he’s having against King.

Is King as strong as Kaido? No, probably not. Is King a scrub compared to Kaido who couldn’t give him a challenging fight? I definitely don’t think that’s the case.

Every strong, renowned pirate needs a first mate that is powerful, and could challenge them to a difficult fight. Basically the Luffy/Zoro dynamic but in Kaido’s crew.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Ascot (Oct 5, 2021)

the zoronboys are my favorite comedy show


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## GiantForehead (Oct 5, 2021)

King went from Marco's son and Yamato's Inferior to almost as strong as Kaido

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 2


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## Oda Report (Oct 5, 2021)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Nobody is overrating King. We saw Zoro was able to land some hits and decently defend against Kaido. We also see how difficult of a time he’s having against King.
> 
> Is King as strong as Kaido? No, probably not. Is King a scrub compared to Kaido who couldn’t give him a challenging fight? I definitely don’t think that’s the case.
> 
> Every strong, renowned pirate needs a first mate that is powerful, and could challenge them to a difficult fight. Basically the Luffy/Zoro dynamic but in Kaido’s crew.



This.


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## Kylo Ren (Oct 6, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> Fools seriously think King would get one-shotted by Base Kaido and *be unable to inflict any damage at all on his dragon form?*


Where is your evidence that he can? 


Mihawk said:


> Zoro can cut through Kaido’s hide and bleed him multiple times. He even left a scar across his hybrid form, and you think that King who is currently giving him the work, would be equal to the Luffy who couldn’t inflict damage on Kaido


So did Kinemon and Kiku but none of their attack that injured and made Kaido bleed are not as strong as G4 Luffy attack that Kaido easily tank without a scratch.

I mean, you couldnt expect that Kinemon and Kiku attack that made Kaido bleed would push Zoro if the attack was directed at Zoro but I could make the case that the G4 pre udon training Luffy has a higher chance of replicate what King does since we have previous opponents (Doffy and Katakuri) that had the same outcome.

Comparing what King does to Zoro to somewhat correlate that to Kaido's was flawed.

In the same chapter we had Queen also got hit by the same slash that Zoro having a hard time to stop and Queen was just fine and dandy lol and we will expect Kaido will going to get hurt by King attack without evidence of adcoa or adcoc from King? Without any feat against Kaido? This example is enough to refute that the one that Zoro having trouble with doesnt mean everyone below Kaido will have the same trouble as Zoro does. Queen react to it as a "fuking Gag" lmao. Boundman will just bounce that technique just like with Doffy as long as King's Haki is not highlighted to be something special.

And Zoro is not being push because of King haki's but because of the attack power of King's attack just like the G4 attack power but lacks the necessary haki(adcoa, adcoc) to be able to hurt Kaido pre udon training.

We had Kinemon that can hurt Kaido but that same Kinemon got low diff by Doffy who lack a certain haki to hurt Luffy G4 boundman, let alone Kaido.


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## Mihawk (Oct 6, 2021)

King isn't overrated...this thread actually shows that he is being underrated.



Kylo Ren said:


> Where is your evidence that he can?


Where is your evidence that King and Katakuri are equal? Where is your evidence that Katakuri wasn't stronger than the version of Luffy who won? Where is your evidence that King would get one-shotted in spite of his durability? WCI Luffy getting knocked on his ass by Kaido like a squirt is not evidence that the same would happen to King and this equivalence is tiresome and disingenuous.


Kylo Ren said:


> So did Kinemon and Kiku but none of their attack that injured and made Kaido bleed are not as strong as G4 Luffy attack that Kaido easily tank without a scratch.


So attacks that actually wounded and slightly injured Kaido < attacks that couldn't scratch him? It seems that you agree strength=/=level of CoA. Then I'm sure you have no problem accepting that King can do better than Kiku/Kinemon and hence inflict damage.


Kylo Ren said:


> I mean, you couldnt expect that Kinemon and Kiku attack that made Kaido bleed would push Zoro if the attack was directed at Zoro but I could make the case that the G4 pre udon training Luffy has a higher chance of replicate what King does since we have previous opponents (Doffy and Katakuri) that had the same outcome.


I don't see how he can considering Doflamingo and Katakuri are all different levels.

King had the cutting ability to cut Marco's wing in half, and is the only other person besides Garp to bypass his regen limit to date. There is no "proof" that WCI Luffy can replicate this. Doesn't mean he can't or would get stomped.


Kylo Ren said:


> Comparing what King does to Zoro to somewhat correlate that to Kaido's was flawed.


If they are truly on the same level, then he can replicate it. You have people claiming that King can't land a scratch on Kaido in this thread, yet you don't find that more absurd  You have fodder such as Okiku, Raizo, etc. fucking Izo along with Kidd, Killer, and Law on the roof whom were able to bleed and inflict damage, yet we are to assume that King is somehow impotent in this aspect in spite of being Kaido's right hand...are we really supposed to think this is the message Oda wants to send?

But let's stop running in circles and address the real issue. Nightbringer make a good point in the other thread about how this has more to do with the narrative than power levels. There is literally no reason for King to turn his blade against Kaido, and so this "lack of evidence" argument goes nowhere.



Kylo Ren said:


> In the same chapter we had Queen also got hit by the same slash that Zoro having a hard time to stop and Queen was just fine and dandy lol and we will expect Kaido will going to get hurt by King attack without evidence of adcoa or adcoc from King?


Queen wasn't his target. King was able to bypass Marco's defences which can easily no-sell attacks from Kizaru and Akainu. Doesn't make him superior to them, does it?


Kylo Ren said:


> Without any feat against Kaido?


Why would King have feats against Kaido? What is this mentality? He is his right hand man, not his enemy.

So because he lacks feats against him, are we supposed to put the Scabbards, Killer, etc. above King in attack potency _or _Haki level just because he never fought his captain? Come on now.


Kylo Ren said:


> This example is enough to refute that the one that Zoro having trouble with *doesnt mean everyone below Kaido will have the same trouble as Zoro *does. Queen react to it as a "fuking Gag" lmao.


I never said that though. But everyone below Zoro and King _will_ have trouble with it and that is my point 

Believing that King doesn't have the means to inflict _any _damage on Dragon Kaido which isn't even his most durable form is the same as thinking Marco can't, especially when characters far less skilled and weaker were able to. It's such tunnel-vision thinking that it doesn't even elicit a serious response.


Kylo Ren said:


> Boundman will just bounce that technique just like with Doffy as long as King's Haki is not highlighted to be something special.


And where is the "evidence" for this? Doffy and King aren't even comparable.


Kylo Ren said:


> And Zoro is not being push because of King haki's but because of the attack power of King's attack just like the G4 attack power but lacks the necessary haki(adcoa, adcoc) to be able to hurt Kaido pre udon training.


Evidence that King lacks the necessary Haki?

Also, if Killer, Momo, and Law were able to inflict damage and hurt Kaido (hybrid even) without the same type of training as Luffy and Kidd, why can't King do the same?


Kylo Ren said:


> We had Kinemon that can hurt Kaido but that same Kinemon got low diff by Doffy who lack a certain haki to hurt Luffy G4 boundman, let alone Kaido.


Ah so having that type of Haki isn't indicative of strength either, gotcha.

In that case, King has nothing to worry about either ways.

Reactions: Winner 1 | GODA 1


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 6, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Killer wasn’t nerfed. His base stats shouldn’t have been altered. He didn’t have his weapons of choice, but Zoro was also without Shusui and in a 1v2. Nice try though.
> 
> Anyway, his rooftop performance is indisputable. If you’re still trying to downplay/belittle it at this point you can argue with yourself.


Not having his weapons of choice is a nerf. His rooftop perfomance is indisputable but its of no indication on what he can do in a 1 on 1 fight at all. Zoro was given a sword that greatly enhances attack power and hes fighting a guy that typically likes to tank attacks who was fighting his captain for 95% of the fight
Killer even states if he had his weapons the fight would have been different indicated he was nerfed, its like you dont even read the manga you just cut out the panels zoro is in and modify them to make him look better


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## devil's bride (Oct 6, 2021)

It's the result of a condensation of factors, the biggest one being the fact that King is fighting Zoro post-rooftop, who have clearly greater feats than Luffy WCI and which may or may not tell us much about the level of overestimation of the King. It can tell us a lot if you believe that Oda cares the slightest bit about being consistent with his powerscaling, and maybe we might not say anything if you consider that Zoro momentarily blocking Hakai or branding Kaido with thirty broken bones is nothing more or nothing less than "Plot Armor".

By the way, speaking of Plot Armor, Oda has been exaggerating Plot Armor in Onigashima like never before:
* Law surviving a TB from Kaido imbued with CoC and shortly thereafter leaving to fight BM, when Luffy Pre-Udon was knocked out by a TB with no additional CoC;
* Kin'emon taking an attack from the CoC-imbued Kaido shortly after barely recovering from the previous beating he had taken at the top and not even being immediately incapacitated, which would contradictorily put him at much higher levels of stamina and endurance than the Luffy G4;
* Ulti surviving a string of powerful hits, including a Yonkou hit, even surpassing Jack in terms of vitality and stamina feats only to be finally defeated by a strong blow from Zeus;

In addition to these, there are also other examples that are quite inconsistent, such as:
  * Izo, Kiku and Momo dealing damage to Kaido's skin when Luffy Pre-Udon failed to be very effective against Kaido Dragon Form;
* Law and Kid making Kaido bleed for bashing damage, the first using sharp rocks and the second using Punk Gibson, when Luffy Pre-Udon couldn't be very effective against Kaido Dragon Form;

Therefore, there is a long list of moments where Oda has been sacrificing script consistency to create iconic or hype moments for a character, a playful moment or one of great emotional significance (Momo biting Kaido is one of those who enter this aspect), or simply keeping a character alive for his later importance in the story. And Zoro's rooftop exploits clearly seem to me to be part of this group of incoherent exploits as a whole, especially considering that King and Queen are placed in the same layer of power.

If King pushes Zoro to extreme diff or even wins, Queen by portrayal would also push Zoro to high-extreme diff... And if King is way above Katakuri for facing the guy who marked Kaido and temporarily blocked Hakai , so Queen and Sanji also fit in a layer above Katakuri and Luffy WCI.

It is this kind of inconsistency above that Zoro's exploits on the rooftop create.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## TheOmega (Oct 6, 2021)

little bitch said:


> It's the result of a condensation of factors, the biggest one being the fact that King is fighting Zoro post-rooftop, who have clearly greater feats than Luffy WCI and which may or may not tell us much about the level of overestimation of the King. It can tell us a lot if you believe that Oda cares the slightest bit about being consistent with his powerscaling, and maybe we might not say anything if you consider that Zoro momentarily blocking Hakai or branding Kaido with thirty broken bones is nothing more or nothing less than "Plot Armor".
> 
> By the way, speaking of Plot Armor, Oda has been exaggerating Plot Armor in Onigashima like never before:
> * Law surviving a TB from Kaido imbued with CoC and shortly thereafter leaving to fight BM, when Luffy Pre-Udon was knocked out by a TB with no additional CoC;
> ...


Every time Kaido has been hurt it has been with a non blunt attack.

Just cuz sharp attacks can injure Kaido don't mean any of those people who fought or injured Kaido are stronger than Round 1 Luffy


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## Conxc (Oct 6, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> Not having his weapons of choice is a nerf.


For one, his weapons are scythes minus the staff part. Not a huge difference in weapon to begin with. “Kamazou” could have used any weapons he chose and he chose scythes, so he has great proficiency with them. Second, Zoro had no problem using OniGiri (Santoryu attack) with the scythe, a weapon that he has literally never wielded before. Do with that info what you will. Anyway,


DarkRasengan said:


> His rooftop perfomance is indisputable but


“His rooftop performance is indisputable, but…I’m gonna downplay it anyway because I clearly have an agenda. No, I’m. It tired of pushing it.”


DarkRasengan said:


> its of no indication on what he can do in a 1 on 1 fight at all. Zoro was given a sword that greatly enhances attack power and hes fighting a guy that typically likes to tank attacks who was fighting his captain for 95% of the fight


Really? Because I’ll tell you what, he was one of only two people in this arc that did any sustainable damage to Kaido without durability bypassing techs. The only other person was Luffy. Every time Zoro hurt Kaido on the rooftop, he was the only one attacking. The one time he did a combined attack with someone, that was the least damage he managed, and ironically enough, that was with Killer. Tatsumaki injured Kaido by itself, and obviously Ashura permanently scarred him, full attention on Zoro. I’ll tell you another thing, if Zoro’s attacks can hurt Kaido, they can hurt anyone else in the OP verse, so your comment about a 1v1 is silly. He managed to blitz Kaido with almost all of his bones broken. He survived a TB in that state. Try again.

Enma enhances nothing. You guys are still with this argument? Enma provided the need for Zoro to train his Haki to *resist *it sapping more Haki per attack than what he wanted to release.it doesn’t add any Haki, it doesn’t make his Haki stronger. It provided the need for him to get better, and he still hasn’t mastered that so it’s still providing some drawbacks, as shown when he missed Kaido with the Dragon Slice attack and was instantly panting. If it were as cut and dry and you believe , I can’t imagine why Kinnemon would advise him to not take it and why only Oden was the only one to “tame” it.

Before Ashura everyone had their go at Kaido. Luffy was not the only one fighting him for 95% of anything while Zoro was still on the rooftop. 



DarkRasengan said:


> Killer even states if he had his weapons the fight would have been different indicated he was nerfed, its like you dont even read the manga you just cut out the panels zoro is in and modify them to make him look better


And Zoro told him the result would have been the same. Who’s right? I think you’re smarter than this.

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## DarkRasengan (Oct 6, 2021)

Conxc said:


> For one, his weapons are scythes minus the staff part. Not a huge difference in weapon to begin with. “Kamazou” could have used any weapons he chose and he chose scythes, so he has great proficiency with them. Second, Zoro had no problem using OniGiri (Santoryu attack) with the scythe, a weapon that he has literally never wielded before. Do with that info what you will. Anyway,
> 
> “His rooftop performance is indisputable, but…I’m gonna downplay it anyway because I clearly have an agenda. No, I’m. It tired of pushing it.”
> 
> ...


Youre not refuting any of my points, zoro still beating killer doesnt mean killer wasnt nerfed, the author said killer was nerfed. Zoro has a durability bypassing technique in enma, without enma zoro cant bypass kaidos durability. Enma maximizes the amount of haki zoro puts out which is enhancing his attack power. I am smarter than this i just dont live in your own delusional world.

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## Conxc (Oct 6, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> Youre not refuting any of my points, zoro still beating killer doesnt mean killer wasnt nerfed, the author said killer was nerfed. Zoro has a durability bypassing technique in enma, without enma zoro cant bypass kaidos durability. Enma maximizes the amount of haki zoro puts out which is enhancing his attack power. I am smarter than this i just dont live in your own delusional world.


Enma bypasses durability now. 
Despite multiple different 3 swords moves and a 9 sword move that injured Kaido, only Enma worked.

Holy tier specialist, Batman

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## Jay. (Oct 6, 2021)

King =/>Kata/Luffy>Zoro, Queen, Sanji

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## DarkRasengan (Oct 6, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Enma bypasses durability now.
> Despite multiple different 3 swords moves and a 9 sword move that injured Kaido, only Enma worked.
> 
> Holy tier specialist, Batman


Zoro wouldnt have cut him without enma so yes it does, you see 9 scars or 3 scars? This is literally enmas whole gimmick is to maximize attack power

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## Jay. (Oct 6, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Enma bypasses durability now.
> Despite multiple different 3 swords moves and a 9 sword move that injured Kaido, only Enma worked.
> 
> Holy tier specialist, Batman


by the shape of kaido's scars:

oden cut him with both swords
and zoro probably just with one sword cause ashura might create 9 swords but it's actually a 360° technique that ends in a single slash. it might end in 3 slashes if he can fully control it. As we can see Kaido's new scar is just a single scar. Kaido felt Odens presence so the indication is that Enma cut Kaido again.
Back to the 360 thingy it's Kinda like Sanji's DJ used to be a 360° in preparation to conjure heat (pretimeskip.) His fight with Jyabura and Zoro's fight with Kaku were two sides of same coin. It resonantes with the two drops in the pod chapter. and the current fights also got enies lonny vibes. Oda loves Circles. Sanji used rotation at first for DJ and now for other flashy attacks like when he does these insane saltos for concasser. Oda follows that pattern with Sanji and Zoro using a hella lot attacks that form circles, rotations and such for a while now. Sanji even kicked Queen around in a circle while holding Zoro some chapters ago. Lmao. Oda loves these minor details. Zoro and Sanji are both conn3cted to the number 3 but Zoro is not neccessary as good as he should be with every single sword. They all have different abilities and purposes. It's noteable which sword he uses in his right hand and which sword he uses in his left hand. Most of the time he had Shisui in the right hand and Sandai in the left and Wado for the Kuina promise thing in his mouth. He has preferences such as always holding Wado in his mouth for deeper reasons and for power reasons prefered Shusui and later on Enma in his strong right hand. But I'd argue that Zoro is trained too well in Nitoryuu that there is actually no differ3nce which of his hands is stronger. But it's noteable that he used Shusui for his Shishisonsons as soon as he got it. Wado is like chewing gum these days. Funny enough when he was down with one sword against Ryuma he used Wado for his One Sword Style iirc. Even Kaen was performed with Wado. That was not a coincidence at all. Wado has an insane durability and probably some hidden magic attached to it just like the Kitetsus. His third sword being broken was a necc3ssary coincidence.
Also Zoro fighting with two swords was not an accident that's why TB is a goat arc anyway cause of all the Shimotsuki and Wano references. Ushimaru and Oden are proud. But that's an entire different story. CBF to make it clear.


tl;dr
ashura is a single sword slash cause 3 and 9 are divine numbers

9 marks the end and the beginning

it's 3 slashes by each of his swords
3 slashes by enma 3 slashes by sandai and 3 slashes by wado

enma cut kaido 3 times in the exact same position and thus created a deep scar on his upper body

kaido confirmed that with his comm3nts
if wado or kitetsu would have also vut through him he would have 2 more scars

simple mathematics

ashura might manifest ittoryuu nitoryuu and santoryuu
zoros 3 inner dragons (ryuma, ushimaru/oden, zoro himself)


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## Conxc (Oct 6, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> Zoro wouldnt have cut him without enma so yes it does, you see 9 scars or 3 scars? This is literally enmas whole gimmick is to maximize attack power


That’s funny because I don’t recall 9 cuts being on Kaku when he lost to Zoro…just the one. Funny thing about shit logic. You’re making things up as you go, though, so off that alone I didn’t expect much. Take your time, bud.

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## Jay. (Oct 6, 2021)

Conxc said:


> That’s funny because I don’t recall 9 cuts being on Kaku when he lost to Zoro…just the one. Funny thing about shit logic. You’re making things up as you go, though, so off that alone I didn’t expect much. Take your time, bud.


ashura is one single slash but repeated 3 times

if he evovles it you get more slashes

he didnt have shusui under control against kaku, he didn't have enma against the pacifista in sa pretimeskip

zoro needs all 3 swords on the same level. that's never the case. wado and sandai cant cut kaido. accept it bro and let the frustration go

kaku, pacifista and kaido was one single slash


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 6, 2021)

Conxc said:


> That’s funny because I don’t recall 9 cuts being on Kaku when he lost to Zoro…just the one. Funny thing about shit logic. You’re making things up as you go, though, so off that alone I didn’t expect much. Take your time, bud.


What kind of logic is it going from not being able to cut the bird cage of a guy who is barely YC level to cutting kaido without the magic sword that maximizes attack power? I'm not making anything up I'm using the things that actually happened in the manga.


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## Conxc (Oct 6, 2021)

DarkRasengan said:


> What kind of logic is it going from not being able to cut the bird cage of a guy who is barely YC level to cutting kaido without the magic sword that maximizes attack power? I'm not making anything up I'm using the things that actually happened in the manga.


Are you still on about this and making the worst possible arguments possible? Zoro never tried to *cut *Birdcage, and if that's the case, I recall a Marine Admiral by the name of Fujitora that also couldn't cut Birdcage right? So what have we learned? In your case, probably fuck-all. Hang it up, bud.

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## MartyMcFly1 (Oct 6, 2021)

Jay. said:


> ashura is one single slash but repeated 3 times
> 
> if he evovles it you get more slashes
> 
> ...


He didn’t have shuusui at all against Kaku.


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 6, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Are you still on about this and making the worst possible arguments possible? Zoro never tried to *cut *Birdcage, and if that's the case, I recall a Marine Admiral by the name of Fujitora that also couldn't cut Birdcage right? So what have we learned? In your case, probably fuck-all. Hang it up, bud.


Lol at worst possible arguments, fujitora could have stopped it as he gave a shove and stopped it in it's tracks and then it kept going, it's been said in  the manga that fujitora wanted the strawhats to save dressrosa not himself. I didn't learn anything because I have already read the manga and know what has happened in it, apparently you haven't, just cut out zoro pics from every chapter and scrapbook them and make up stories to go with your little pictures. Just can't handle that you're wrong.

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## Mrdude (Oct 6, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Enma bypasses durability now.
> Despite multiple different 3 swords moves and a 9 sword move that injured Kaido, only Enma worked.
> 
> Holy tier specialist, Batman













Enma's attack power has always been superior to all of Zoro's blades. Even Zoro has said this:



"Once I've gotten used to this sword.....I'll be even stronger?"

This had been highlighted every time Zoro attacked Kaido. Kaido has said it and so has Big Mom. Even in the panel where Zoro uses Asura Enma is specifically being shown to us. This was done by Oda on purpose.

I don't know how much more evidence you guys need to admit truth.


Like I said before King has an aerial advantage over Zoro. This means he can fly at high speeds and because of that his attacks have a great knockback effect which is why Zoro is getting tossed around. Zoro as far as we can tell has no problems cutting King even when clashing with him.


So this whole thing about King being superior to other YC1 is completely baseless. There's 0 evidence for it.

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## Conxc (Oct 6, 2021)

Mrdude said:


>


Zzzzz. The official translation already debunked the “it was the *only*” blade bit. Long time ago, bud. It was *one of *the only blades known to scar Kaido, meaning he also cut Kaido with his other sword, meaning cutting Kaido was *always *an Oden feat. I wonder how silly you’ll feel when you finally realize that you can’t give Enma to the likes of say, Tashigi and expect for her to be able to do Jack shit to Kaido. Come on now.


Mrdude said:


> Enma's attack power has always been superior to all of Zoro's blades. Even Zoro has said this:
> 
> 
> 
> "Once I've gotten used to this sword.....I'll be even stronger?"


Enma is the same class blade as Wado and Shusui. It releases more of the user’s Haki against their will, which is *not *a good thing because you lose in a battle of attrition. Haki reserves are not infinite.


That statement highlights exactly what I said: Enma provided to opportunity for Zoro to train his CoA and get better control over it by being able to control how much Haki he uses with Enma and resisting it’s involuntary usage of his Haki reserves per attack.



Mrdude said:


> This had been highlighted every time Zoro attacked Kaido. Kaido has said it and so has Big Mom. Even in the panel where Zoro uses Asura Enma is specifically being shown to us. This was done by Oda on purpose.
> 
> I don't know how much more evidence you guys need to admit truth.


The truth is your argument is tired. Enma will always have the most relevance in this fight because of Kaido’s history with the weapon. Zoro cut Kaido with a few three-sword style moves, then Ashura. Never did it say that only Enma made any contact.


Mrdude said:


> Like I said before King has an aerial advantage over Zoro. This means he can fly at high speeds and because of that his attacks have a great knockback effect which is why Zoro is getting tossed around. Zoro as far as we can tell has no problems cutting King even when clashing with him.


Actually he did have problems seeing how King didn’t even flinch while being attacked by Rengoku Oni Giri…


Mrdude said:


> So this whole thing about King being superior to other YC1 is completely baseless. There's 0 evidence for it.


This I can agree with. I firmly believe that the Yonkou gridlock is in place for a reason. Kaido is the strongest in the world, so his commanders can’t also all be the strongest commanders out of the Yonko IMO.

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## Breadman (Oct 7, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Like… what don’t you guys understand? This is a children’s story,



Woah, woah, WOAH, slow down there hombre, you're moving a bit too fast for my liking.

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## TheWiggian (Oct 7, 2021)

Jay. said:


> ashura is one single slash but repeated 3 times
> 
> if he evovles it you get more slashes
> 
> ...



Yes? Against Kaku he had all 3 swords under proper control and it still was 1 slash. 

Your point?


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## randomsurfer (Oct 7, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> This thread fails for the fact that Luffy hasn't fought an equivalent to King....Kat isnt equivalent power vary's among chars. We haven't even see King fight fully.....King is fighting a Zoro who unlike pre-Udon Luffy couldn't permanently damage kaidou with broken bones...Zoro was the 1st char to make kaidou fear of damage and dodge.
> 
> It was Luffy WHO had to catch up to Zoro and get in the game of damaging kaidou.
> Not surprised seeing how both Luffy and Zoro's goals on there way to end game puts them above entry-level yonkou, this tug of war of power between Luffy and his right hand isn't nothing new and yall should of came to accept it when Dark King silvers was introduced, Zoro is in that power talk regardless of yalls feelings.
> ...


Correct me if I’m wrong, but the zoro attack you talked about was his final attack at kaidou, the one he unintentionally used advanced coc to injure kaidou. That was an attack that zoro haven’t learned to use yet and I suspect it will be something that zoro learns to defeat king, so as of the moment, zoro is still beneath Luffy.


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## TheWiggian (Oct 7, 2021)

randomsurfer said:


> Correct me if I’m wrong, but the zoro attack you talked about was his final attack at kaidou, the one he unintentionally used advanced coc to injure kaidou. That was an attack that zoro haven’t learned to use yet and I suspect it will be something that zoro learns to defeat king, so as of the moment, zoro is still beneath Luffy.



Why would he need advanced CoC to beat King? Is King Kaido's equal?

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## Jay. (Oct 7, 2021)

Mr. Prince, King and Queen

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## randomsurfer (Oct 7, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Why would he need advanced CoC to beat King? Is King Kaido's equal?


No, he’s not kaidou’s equivalent. Unless you’re suggesting that the current zoro can take on king without further development in power, like his past opponents, zoro will need a power up to make the story interesting and his next powerup was hinted at learning to control his advanced coc. Btw, king might have very high defense, thus, requiring advanced coc to cut him.


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## TheWiggian (Oct 7, 2021)

randomsurfer said:


> No, he’s not kaidou’s equivalent. Unless you’re suggesting that the current zoro can take on king without further development in power, like his past opponents, zoro will need a power up to make the story interesting and his next powerup was hinted at learning to control his advanced coc. Btw, king might have very high defense, thus, requiring advanced coc to cut him.



He was already cut without much effort. He got good endurance and recovery though. 

There's nothing that Zoro doesn't already have in his arsenal to beat king.


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## Oda Report (Oct 7, 2021)

randomsurfer said:


> Correct me if I’m wrong, but the zoro attack you talked about was his final attack at kaidou, the one he unintentionally used advanced coc to injure kaidou. That was an attack that zoro haven’t learned to use yet and I suspect it will be something that zoro learns to defeat king, so as of the moment, zoro is still beneath Luffy.



The attack that Zoro used to defeat Ryuuma is the attack that put fear of damage in both Yonkou that attack was pretty early. I could make the argument (not going to because so many don't have a open mind to foreshadowing and other story elements.) That Zoro has been unknowingly using advanced CoC, hence Zoro easier time damaging Kaidou even with broken bones, while Luffy had to catch up. Heck all the jokes (like some of ussops lies being true) about many thinking Zoro was using/has Coc.

On to Z v K

Zoro vs King we will see Zoro pull out a new attack to defeat King, not really gain a powerup. Zoro unlike a lot of the TS SH only needed a real threat to show off the fruits of his TS training. A lot of folks like to give the haki leech Enma or Even Oden dead spirit himself all credit when it comes to Zoros showings on the rooftop which is not real.

I bet Zoro's fox fire cutting tech wont even aid him in his battle vs King.

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## Mrdude (Oct 7, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Zzzzz. The official translation already debunked the “it was the *only*” blade bit. Long time ago, bud. It was *one of *the only blades known to scar Kaido, meaning he also cut Kaido with his other sword, meaning cutting Kaido was *always *an Oden feat. I wonder how silly you’ll feel when you finally realize that you can’t give Enma to the likes of say, Tashigi and expect for her to be able to do Jack shit to Kaido. Come on now.
> 
> Enma is the same class blade as Wado and Shusui. It releases more of the user’s Haki against their will, which is *not *a good thing because you lose in a battle of attrition. Haki reserves are not infinite.
> 
> ...


You do realize Oden was the one weilding both blades at the time. Unlike Zoro Oden isn’t a noob which is why Kaido constantly claims Oden’s Ryou can damage him. Same reason why the scabbards damaged Kaido because of Oden’s teachings. I don’t feel silly because I actually read one piece.

Sword Class doesn’t matter when a blade has unique trait like Enma’s. Zoro was training to tame Enma in order to use it without draining himself. Controlling how much haki you release doesn’t automatically make you haki stronger. That doesn’t even make sense. It only makes your Haki use more efficient. It doesn’t improve AP which is what Enma provides. Hence BM‘s comment about the Sword being dangerous.


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## Conxc (Oct 7, 2021)

Mrdude said:


> You do realize Oden was the one weilding both blades at the time. Unlike Zoro Oden isn’t a noob which is why Kaido constantly claims Oden’s Ryou can damage him. Same reason why the scabbards damaged Kaido because of Oden’s teachings. I don’t feel silly because I actually read one piece.


Oop. I’m so sorry sir. Didn’t realize you were a OP savant. That being said, you *must *have read when Kaido laughed at the Scabbard’s effort to hurt him and told them blatantly that they collectively cannot amount to Oden and that their cuts were too shallow? Was this a test, Mr. Savant?

The point is, Enma was *not *the only blade to pull off the feat. Such an implication has been debunked for a while. But I’m sure you knew that. Another test maybe, Oda?


Mrdude said:


> Sword Class doesn’t matter when a blade has unique trait like Enma’s. Zoro was training to tame Enma in order to use it without draining himself. Controlling how much haki you release doesn’t automatically make you haki stronger. That doesn’t even make sense. It only makes your Haki use more efficient. It doesn’t improve AP which is what Enma provides. Hence BM‘s comment about the Sword being dangerous.


Sword class obviously matters because that heirchy exists in the series, even at this point. Despite what you *think *it does, Hitetsu implied that the only thing that would make it a good enough led to
Jump to Supreme status is if Zoro blackens it. But I’m sure you actually know better, seeing how you’re a OP _savant _and Hitetsu is not. I don’t see how you think *training* your Haki in *any* way wouldn’t improve it Luffy trained merely the *application *of his Haki in prison, yet his CoA is obviously stronger than it was before he got there. Zoro was training for better Haki control, which itself is an underrated thing. His CoA is obviously stronger. Must be another test, Oda.

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## Mrdude (Oct 7, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Oop. I’m so sorry sir. Didn’t realize you were a OP savant. That being said, you *must *have read when Kaido laughed at the Scabbard’s effort to hurt him and told them blatantly that they collectively cannot amount to Oden and that their cuts were too shallow? Was this a test, Mr. Savant?
> 
> The point is, Enma was *not *the only blade to pull off the feat. Such an implication has been debunked for a while. But I’m sure you knew that. Another test maybe, Oda?
> 
> ...



Yeah because scabbards are not as skilled as Oden was at using Ryou which explains their shallow cuts.

These are Oda's own words. It still doesn't change the fact that Zoro had to specifically put more power into *Enma* to cut Kaido. Where as before he could not. This sentence alone completely throws away any argument that Enma is the same as any other blade that Zoro uses.

And like I said in the argument where Enma increases Zoro's AP has nothing to do with it's rank. Hitetsu said it would increase it's rank if he learned how to turn it permanently black. That has nothing to do with what this argument is about. Good luck convincing anyone that controlling the amount of haki used is somehow beneficial to increasing attack power.

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## Conxc (Oct 7, 2021)

Mrdude said:


> Yeah because scabbards are not as skilled as Oden was at using Ryou which explains their shallow cuts.


You're making no sense right now. At first , you used the fact that the Scabbards "hurt" Kaido somehow because of "Oden's teachings"...but when I just pointed out that they didn't...now you say that they're not as skilled with Haki.... I know you're pushing an agenda, but at least try and make the thoughts cohesive. You're all over the place, and I'm not even sure you remember the stance you took in the first place at this point.


Mrdude said:


> These are Oda's own words. It still doesn't change the fact that Zoro had to specifically put more power into *Enma* to cut Kaido. Where as before he could not. This sentence alone completely throws away any argument that Enma is the same as any other blade that Zoro uses.


Yeah, maybe because he didn't master it yet? Part of mastering something that drains you against your will is learning when what you allow is enough, too much, or too little. He's still struggling to control how much of his own Haki he uses with it. When he used the dual attack with Killer that didn't do anything to Kaido, he stated he had to used it more. When he tried to cut Kaido with the Dragon Slice move, after missing the attack, he was panting. Probably because he used too much. Either way, this is coming from his own Haki pool and the quality of his own Haki is the foundation.


Mrdude said:


> And like I said in the argument where Enma increases Zoro's AP has nothing to do with it's rank. Hitetsu said it would increase it's rank if he learned how to turn it permanently black.


Ahh, if it's that easy why doesn't he just dye the blade black? Since that's all turning it black would mean? 

Come on. This isn't even fun at this point. Turning Enma black is a Haki feat that even the original owner of the sword could not do. What does Haki do? Enhances AP. If you deny that, you're argument has no leg to stand on because now you're showing that you are willing to deny one of the most commonly known facts in this manga. Again, despite what you *think *it does, the only way for it to climb in rank is by turning it black with Haki, which would mean refining the sword even more, which clearly shows that sword rank remains relevent in OP. Maybe not in your dreams, or in No Piece, but in One Piece.


Mrdude said:


> That has nothing to do with what this argument is about. Good luck convincing anyone that controlling the amount of haki used is somehow beneficial to increasing attack power.


Good luck with critical thinking and connect 4 games that you might play in the future that you will for sure have trouble winning.

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## Mrdude (Oct 7, 2021)

Conxc said:


> You're making no sense right now. At first , you used the fact that the Scabbards "hurt" Kaido somehow because of "Oden's teachings"...but when I just pointed out that they didn't...now you say that they're not as skilled with Haki.... I know you're pushing an agenda, but at least try and make the thoughts cohesive. You're all over the place, and I'm not even sure you remember the stance you took in the first place at this point.
> 
> Yeah, maybe because he didn't master it yet? Part of mastering something that drains you against your will is learning when what you allow is enough, too much, or too little. He's still struggling to control how much of his own Haki he uses with it. When he used the dual attack with Killer that didn't do anything to Kaido, he stated he had to used it more. When he tried to cut Kaido with the Dragon Slice move, after missing the attack, he was panting. Probably because he used too much. Either way, this is coming from his own Haki pool and the quality of his own Haki is the foundation.
> 
> ...



Dude can you read?

I said they were taught how to use Oden's Ryou. However everybody has different level of talent when it comes to different types of Haki. Use your head man. Figure it out or don't. Idgaf.

Yes nobody is denying that Enma uses Zoro's haki. But Enma forms that haki and releases it. At the end of the day his attacks become more potent as the same thing cannot be replicated by Wado Ichimonji or his other blades. As indicated in that panel where Zoro fails to cut Kaido. That is a fact not something I made up as Enma would make him stronger by his own admission. There are far too many panels proving this very thing for you to keep arguing about it.

Turning Enma black makes the blade tough enough that it would never break or nick as explained by Mihawk. Nowhere does it say that it increases attack power.


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## Conxc (Oct 7, 2021)

Mrdude said:


> Dude can you read?
> 
> I said they were taught how to use Oden's Ryou. However everybody has different level of talent when it comes to different types of Haki. Use your head man. Figure it out or don't. Idgaf.


Dude, "Oden's" Ryou is literally just CoA...There is no specific category for CoA specifically for Oden. This is Kaido's PTSD talking. He mentioned Oden's Ryuo against the Scabbards because they're Oden's Scabbards. He mentioned Oden's Ryuo vs Zoro because Enma is Oden's sword. Last I checked, Haki is not transferable. You can't teach someone a specific subcategory of Haki. The Haki that Luffy uses isn't Rayleigh's Haki, is it?

Aside from that, you explicitly stated that the Scabbards hurt Kaido because of "Oden's teachings." When I pointed out that they didn't, as clearly stated in the manga by Kaido, you then backpedaled and said that they aren't as skilled as Oden. The only one confused here is you, bud.


Mrdude said:


> Yes nobody is denying that Enma uses Zoro's haki. But Enma forms that haki and releases it. At the end of the day his attacks become more potent as the same thing cannot be replicated by Wado Ichimonji or his other blades.


You're literally explaining the process of imbuement. Zoro can form his Haki in any of his swords and control the amount that he puts in. The difference with Enma is that it makes it much harder to do that. Even when wielded by Oden, Enma was never highlighted in favor of Ame no Habakiri. They were both known as the only two swords known to cut Kaido, and none of Oden's feats were cpecifically because of anything that Enma did. With Zoro, any time he uses a 3 sword or more style move, Enma still isn't highlighted. He damaged Kaido twice with a 3 sword style move and then Ashura and it was never stated or even implied that only Enma managed to cut Kaido and that Wado and Sandai didn't.


Mrdude said:


> As indicated in that panel where Zoro fails to cut Kaido. That is a fact not something I made up as Enma would make him stronger by his own admission. There are far too many panels proving this very thing for you to keep arguing about it.


Already addressed this. By his own admission he hasn't yet mastered or tamed Enma, meaning he's still wither using too little or too much Haki in his attacks. When he attacked Kaido that time, he used too little, probably to try and not exert too much of his Haki. When he used Dragon slice on Kaido but missed, he used too much and ended up showing signs of fatigue early in the fight.


Mrdude said:


> Turning Enma black makes the blade tough enough that it would never break or nick as explained by Mihawk. Nowhere does it say that it increases attack power.


Again, Haki is the what turns a blade black. Haki literally enhances AP. What do you not understand about that?


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## GiantForehead (Oct 7, 2021)

Make of these what you will, and ask yourself: can Zoro replicate these with Shusui or another blade of that rank? And why is Kaido so fixated on Enma?

[30 marks]


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## Oda Report (Oct 7, 2021)

GiantForehead said:


> Make of these what you will, and ask yourself: can Zoro replicate these with Shusui or another blade of that rank? And why is Kaido so fixated on Enma?
> 
> [30 marks]



Are we still saying its all Enma and not Zoro at this stage in the game?

Look at Thriller Bark or when Zoro got his new blades after Mihawk broke his other blades. Each blade has characteristics that make it there own. The demonic blade in east blue was dying for blood and cut more then what Zoro wanted....Zoro called it a problem child. The other was super light, lighter the his other blades so Zoro was able to cut extremely fast with it. (blade got rusted to death and Zoro buried it at thriller bark) Ryuuma blade was very heavy and powerful, as noted by Zoro when he was trying to use it along with his other blades vs Oz Jr and when the air slashes was absorbed by Ryuumas blade to create a powerful blast however thats not what Zoro intended it missed Oz jr.

Enma is a leech that drains the user of his Haki against the users will and if the user isn't strong enough they will be turned into a husk. Enma is still powered by Zoros haki, Zoro is using Enma along side his other 2 blades. Kaidou doesn't know more then the guy who knows Enma.

Enma is highlighted because its Zoros new blade (like the rest) and the significance, to the fight with Kaidou and the history with Oden.
Not to mention Enma is yet another problem child.

This is just a repeat of what Zoro has been doing with each new blade, enma is just tougher to tame, and can be blacked to rise grade.

Enma needs grace -Mihawk.


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## GiantForehead (Oct 7, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> Are we still saying its all Enma and not Zoro at this stage in the game?


Both


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## juju15112 (Oct 7, 2021)

Kylo Ren said:


> Where is your evidence that he can?
> 
> So did Kinemon and Kiku but none of their attack that injured and made Kaido bleed are not as strong as G4 Luffy attack that Kaido easily tank without a scratch.
> 
> ...


Kiku blade got ripped through like noting while Zoro swatted it away like its a joke. King just sent Zoro flying through walls opon walls. King was destroying thr sccabards 20 years ago and none of them are stronger than him or Zoro.

The attack hit graced queen butt not hit him head on like Zoro. Stop talking nonesense the sccabards are nowhere near Zoro level. Why do you think King doesn't have Haki.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mrdude (Oct 7, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Dude, "Oden's" Ryou is literally just CoA...There is no specific category for CoA specifically for Oden. This is Kaido's PTSD talking. He mentioned Oden's Ryuo against the Scabbards because they're Oden's Scabbards. He mentioned Oden's Ryuo vs Zoro because Enma is Oden's sword. Last I checked, Haki is not transferable. You can't teach someone a specific subcategory of Haki. The Haki that Luffy uses isn't Rayleigh's Haki, is it?
> 
> Aside from that, you explicitly stated that the Scabbards hurt Kaido because of "Oden's teachings." When I pointed out that they didn't, as clearly stated in the manga by Kaido, you then backpedaled and said that they aren't as skilled as Oden. The only one confused here is you, bud.
> 
> ...



Backpedal what? Kaido was heard screaming when the scabbards stabbed him. It was a shallow cut. But it was still Oden’s training that allowed them to break through Kaido’s scales.

You can teach somone how to utilize haki flow as hyogoro did with Luffy.  Ryou use is described by hyogoro to require finesse rather than brute force like buso is. Meaning it is more complex that simply adding haki to you fists. So there may not be subcategories but there are different methods to using the flow like for example adding it to weapons or having it enter anothers body. Oden didn’t just teach them haki use. He taught them his fighting style.

As far as we know Ame no habakiri does not forcibly take the users haki like Enma does. So no they are not the same.


There were a ton of panels with the aura and Enma specifically being shown when he used any attack on Kaido. Every time.


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## juju15112 (Oct 8, 2021)

Mrdude said:


> Yeah because scabbards are not as skilled as Oden was at using Ryou which explains their shallow cuts.
> 
> These are Oda's own words. It still doesn't change the fact that Zoro had to specifically put more power into *Enma* to cut Kaido. Where as before he could not. This sentence alone completely throws away any argument that Enma is the same as any other blade that Zoro uses.
> 
> And like I said in the argument where Enma increases Zoro's AP has nothing to do with it's rank. Hitetsu said it would increase it's rank if he learned how to turn it permanently black. That has nothing to do with what this argument is about. Good luck convincing anyone that controlling the amount of haki used is somehow beneficial to increasing attack power.


Where do you get Zoro couldn't cut Kaido before from? Did Zoro face Kaido before the roofpiece? Or are you making shit up? Also Zoro literally says mastering Enma he will be stronger



Mrdude said:


> Backpedal what? Kaido was heard screaming when the scabbards stabbed him. It was a shallow cut. But it was still Oden’s training that allowed them to break through Kaido’s scales.
> 
> You can teach somone how to utilize haki flow as hyogoro did with Luffy.  Ryou use is described by hyogoro to require finesse rather than brute force like buso is. Meaning it is more complex that simply adding haki to you fists. So there may not be subcategories but there are different methods to using the flow like for example adding it to weapons. Oden didn’tjust teach them haki use. He taught them his fighting style.
> 
> ...


Kaido been screaming for like 40 chapters bro. He screamed when Momo bite him. Thats not evidence.

Zoro cut Kaido with all his swords


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## Oda Report (Oct 8, 2021)

GiantForehead said:


> Both



Then you MUST read the actual story. The mechanics are explained. 

Now I see why the Zoro bros are so toxic.


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## watertaco (Oct 8, 2021)

Tbh, his hybrid form isn't even _that_ cool.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Conxc (Oct 8, 2021)

Mrdude said:


> Backpedal what? Kaido was heard screaming when the scabbards stabbed him. It was a shallow cut. But it was still Oden’s training that allowed them to break through Kaido’s scales.


Not for nothing, him screaming in pain in this case is completely cancelled out by the fact that when they were done he laughed at them and told them to get their weight up.


Mrdude said:


> You can teach somone how to utilize haki flow as hyogoro did with Luffy.  Ryou use is described by hyogoro to require finesse rather than brute force like buso is. Meaning it is more complex that simply adding haki to you fists.


And according to Hyou, Ryuo is literally just CoA, that’s just what they call it in Wano. It’s an application difference. In Wano, the application that Luffy was trying to learn is the standard application there that’s just what they call Ryuo. It’s all still CoA.


Mrdude said:


> So there may not be subcategories but there are different methods to using the flow like for example adding it to weapons or having it enter anothers body. Oden didn’t just teach them haki use. He taught them his fighting style.


Oden pretty much taught them CoA as Ray did for Luffy. We don’t call the Haki that Luffy uses “Rayleigh’s” Haki, right? IIRC the only person to refer to that style of Haki as “Oden’s” Haki when imbued with swords is Kaido himself, an outsider.


Mrdude said:


> As far as we know Ame no habakiri does not forcibly take the users haki like Enma does. So no they are not the same.


The point is, all of Oden’s feats were pulled off with both swords, not just Enma. Scarring Kaido, clashing with WB etc. Enma was never singled out, not even once. Same with Zoro’s rooftop feats minus the One sword style attack that he attempted to use on Kaido.


Mrdude said:


> There were a ton of panels with the aura and Enma specifically being shown when he used any attack on Kaido. Every time.


That doesn’t give you grounds to claim that it is the only one of his swords that managed to deal damage. It was never implied nor outright stated, and if that were the case you can bet Oda would specify that. In fact, when Zoro scarred Kaido, he himself cited ACoC imbuement as the reason Zoro managed the feat. So now I guess you’ll tell me that Enma gave Zoro CoC? Or that it was Oden’s CoC still present in the sword? Get that outta here dude

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Mrdude (Oct 8, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Not for nothing, him screaming in pain in this case is completely cancelled out by the fact that when they were done he laughed at them and told them to get their weight up.
> 
> And according to Hyou, Ryuo is literally just CoA, that’s just what they call it in Wano. It’s an application difference. In Wano, the application that Luffy was trying to learn is the standard application there that’s just what they call Ryuo. It’s all still CoA.
> 
> ...



Oden is extremely powerful. He doesn't need Enma to hurt Kaido. That's the point. Zoro didn't have that kind of skill which is why he needs Enma.


You have strayed significantly far from what original topic was.
What are you arguing exactly?

So far I have shown you numerous panels of Kaido and Big Mom claiming the blade is dangerous/unique. Multiple panels of Enma being shown with a strange aura before he cuts Kaido.  Even Zoro saying learning to control Enma will make him stronger. Hiyori claiming Enma is the only blade to injure Kaido. Your arguing against Oda's own words. 

Where is the evidence saying otherwise? 



At no point did Kaido attribute these attacks to Zoro until he used Asura with CoC. Whenever Zoro attacked Kaido it was always Enma he and Big Mom claimed was responsible for the damage. I am not saying Zoro doesn't contribute. But Enma is a significant factor.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 8, 2021)

Louis-954 said:


> Zoro > Kaido > King > Marco > Beckman



Close

Zoro>Beckman>Laidou>Marco>Ling

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Louis-954 (Oct 8, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Close
> 
> Zoro>Beckman>Laidou>Marco>Ling


My mistake. Forgive my ignorance.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Conxc (Oct 8, 2021)

Mrdude said:


> Oden is extremely powerful. He doesn't need Enma to hurt Kaido. That's the point. Zoro didn't have that kind of skill which is why he needs Enma.


Zoro is also extremely powerful, and he obviously doesn't *need *Enma to hurt Kaido either seeing how he successfully did so with Wado and Sandai Kitetsu as well as Enma. What he needed was the Haki progression that using Enma forced him to go through. Try again.


Mrdude said:


> You have strayed significantly far from what original topic was.
> What are you arguing exactly?


I'm arguing against the notion that "Oden's Haki" is a thing, let alone *the *thing necessary to hurt Kaido. Ryuo is merely a different name and application for CoA. There is no subcategory specifically that Oden taught to the Scabbards. What I find absolutely hilarious is that you believe that the Scabbards hurt Kaido. None of them have Enma, yet you're saying that Zoro cannot hurt Kaido without Enma, even though he's much stronger than any single Scabbard. Make that make sense please.


Mrdude said:


> So far I have shown you numerous panels of Kaido and Big Mom claiming the blade is dangerous/unique. Multiple panels of Enma being shown with a strange aura before he cuts Kaido.


Notice how there was no aura around it when Zoro did his attack at the same time as Killer and he stated that he needed to use more Haki? Then when he attempted to use Dragon Slice, the aura was overflowing and when he missed he was panting, implying that he put too much Haki? That's a visual effect thing. Absent when he doesn't apply enough, overwhelmingly apparent when he puts too much for himself to handle.


Mrdude said:


> Even Zoro saying learning to control Enma will make him stronger. Hiyori claiming Enma is the only blade to injure Kaido. Your arguing against Oda's own words.


Obviously because learning to tame and control his own Haki reserves, thus furthering his Haki mastery would make him stronger. That should be obvious? 

No matter how many times you say this, it won't be true. She said that it is *one *of the swords known to give Kaido his only scar.


The one arguing against Oda's words is you my friend.


Mrdude said:


> Where is the evidence saying otherwise?


How about the fact that he's injured Kaido with 3 sword style moves and there has been no indication that only Enma hurt him? Why would he even bother using more than Enma if his other swords weren't doing anything? Use your head.


Mrdude said:


> *At no point did Kaido attribute these attacks to Zoro until he used Asura with CoC*. Whenever Zoro attacked Kaido it was always Enma he and Big Mom claimed was responsible for the damage. I am not saying Zoro doesn't contribute. But Enma is a significant factor.




Dog, please stop. Kaido says plain as day that Zoro's best offensive feat to date was pulled of with CoC imbuement, not because of Enma. Need a break?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Kylo Ren (Oct 22, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> Where is your evidence that King and Katakuri are equal? Where is your evidence that Katakuri wasn't stronger than the version of Luffy who won? Where is your evidence that King would get one-shotted in spite of his durability? WCI Luffy getting knocked on his ass by Kaido like a squirt is not evidence that the same would happen to King and this equivalence is tiresome and disingenuous.


You're claiming that the one who thinks King was unalbe to hurt Kaido is a fool and I ask you why you think that way by showing me that your claim is right and you ask me question to answer me? Okay lol


Mihawk said:


> *So attacks that actually wounded and slightly injured Kaido < attacks that couldn't scratch him? *It seems that you agree strength=/=level of CoA. Then I'm sure you have no problem accepting that King can do better than Kiku/Kinemon and hence inflict damage.


No. If you lack the necessary haki to hurt Kaido this is not the case but if we said the reciever of the attack was not Kaido then the bold is right.


Mihawk said:


> King had the cutting ability to cut Marco's wing in half, and is the only other person besides Garp to bypass his regen limit to date. There is no "proof" that WCI Luffy can replicate this. Doesn't mean he can't or would get stomped.


Is it because of Haki or maybe as a lunarian he has an ability to also cut fire? Just like Zoro and Kin.

By passing Marco limit? I mean if he do it alone ill give him credit for that but lets not exaggerate things. Marco healing everybody and fighting two opponent at the same time.


Mihawk said:


> *You have people claiming that King can't land a scratch on Kaido in this thread, yet you don't find that more absurd  *You have fodder such as Okiku, Raizo, etc. fucking Izo along with Kidd, Killer, and Law on the roof whom were able to bleed and inflict damage, yet we are to assume that King is somehow impotent in this aspect in spite of being Kaido's right hand...are we really supposed to think this is the message Oda wants to send?


Im one of them lol is it ridiculous to wait for his feat rather than assume things that he could because some inferior char. can? thats the case if the likes of Dofla/Katakuri didnt exist. 

And I already give you example of fodder that have been able to hurt Kaido but the likes of Dofla and Katakuri cannot by the feat and evidence that we currently had just because the two of them doesnt have the tools to hurt Kaido. I mean did people forget this simple thing about Kaido? 


Mihawk said:


> Queen wasn't his target. King was able to bypass Marco's defences which can easily no-sell attacks from Kizaru and Akainu. Doesn't make him superior to them, does it?


Doesnt negate that the attack power is the same, unless if you can prove that those slashes that hit queen and zoro had different power in them. 

You see it as King bypass Marco regen because of Haki and I see it as King tech to be able to cut fire. Which is righ, which is wrong. Who knows. Lets see. 


Mihawk said:


> Why would King have feats against Kaido? What is this mentality? He is his right hand man, not his enemy.
> 
> So because he lacks feats against him, are we supposed to put the Scabbards, Killer, etc. above King in attack potency _or _Haki level just because he never fought his captain? Come on now.


My bad. 

But what I mean with that is, king lack the feat and hype that he has an amazing coa haki that can hurt Kaido. Thats all.


Mihawk said:


> I never said that though. But everyone below Zoro and King _will_ have trouble with it and that is my point
> 
> Believing that King doesn't have the means to inflict _any _damage on Dragon Kaido which isn't even his most durable form is the same as thinking Marco can't, especially when characters far less skilled and weaker were able to. It's such tunnel-vision thinking that it doesn't even elicit a serious response.


"Such tunnel vision thinking" lmao.

Why would I only consider that they can because far lesser character could do it. 

When, there is also a greater character that couldnt and far lesser character could? I guess you like to dismiss this part. 


Mihawk said:


> And where is the "evidence" for this? Doffy and King aren't even comparable.


Where's my evidence of this? I said as long as King's haki is not highlighted as someone strong coa user then I only suggest that the doffy case is likely to happen.

How about you? As far as im concern there is no single Haki feat king have or state that he is some special haki user just like Katakuri in terms of coo. 


Mihawk said:


> Evidence that King lacks the necessary Haki?


Well, he hasnt shown that he have necessary Haki. Its that simple but that doesnt mean it will stay that way. All I was asking is, he show me first before I believe that he can.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Jay. (Oct 22, 2021)

so what will happen if zoro won't beat king?


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## Oda Report (Oct 22, 2021)

Kylo Ren said:


> You're claiming that the one who thinks King was unalbe to hurt Kaido is a fool and I ask you why you think that way by showing me that your claim is right and you ask me question to answer me? Okay lol



The fact that Kings attack power is overwhelming Zoros attack power who was able to permanently damage kaidou with broken bones.
King is the right hand of Kaidou, and if you guys think King would get 1 shitted by Kaidou like Luffy did, yall crazy lmao thats not how right hands and captains get down.


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## Mihawk (Oct 22, 2021)

Kylo Ren said:


> You're claiming that the one who thinks King was unalbe to hurt Kaido is a fool and I ask you why you think that way by showing me that your claim is right and you ask me question to answer me? Okay lol


Those questions are not traps. They are legitimate questions for those who believe it has somehow been established that King would only perform as well as WCI Luffy.


Kylo Ren said:


> No. If you lack the necessary haki to hurt Kaido this is not the case but if we said the reciever of the attack was not Kaido then the bold is right.


In that case, you agree that it has nothing to do with strength after all? And that Kaido's durability is simply a unique trait which requires an exclusive ability to bypass?

If so, then that has nothing to do with WCI Luffy yes? Because that was what I was initially arguing against, bigger picture.


Kylo Ren said:


> Is it because of Haki or maybe as a lunarian he has an ability to also cut fire? Just like Zoro and Kin.


Who knows? King's cutting ability should be high, even if it isn't comparable to Zoro's. Like I said, if fodder like Kin and Okiku or even Izo and Raizo somehow possess it, wouldn't it be absurd if someone with King's level of combat strength doesn't? It is Haki related after all...I thought it should just be common sense.


Kylo Ren said:


> By passing Marco limit? I mean if he do it alone ill give him credit for that but lets not exaggerate things. Marco healing everybody and fighting two opponent at the same time.


No by bypassing his regen limit like Garp in a single instant, I meant the time when he cut Marco's wing off. He was the only person to actually pull that off by feats.

Sorry, I should've clarified. I meant his defences and regeneration. Garp did it when he left a small bruise on Marco which didn't immediately regenerate (even though he did when Kizaru blasted him full of holes or when Queen shot him). King bypassed that defence by severing one of his wings, although of course not permanently.

This was a pretty good cutting feat by King.



Kylo Ren said:


> Im one of them lol is it ridiculous to wait for his feat rather than assume things that he could because some inferior char. can?


Sure we can wait.


Kylo Ren said:


> thats the case if the likes of Dofla/Katakuri didnt exist.


What is it about Doflamingo and Katakuri?

They're decent Haki users.


Kylo Ren said:


> And I already give you example of fodder that have been able to hurt Kaido *but the likes of Dofla and Katakuri cannot by the feat and evidence that we currently had just because the two of them doesnt have the tools to hurt Kaido.* I mean did people forget this simple thing about Kaido?


But that's being dismissive of one thing.

Doflamingo and Katakuri were defeated in the previous arcs and are not even relevant at the moment. This method of "hurting" Kaido was only introduced in the current arc, in which they are not present and have no connection to its events. It's more honest to acknowledge that than concluding_ they don't have the tools to hurt Kaido. _We don't know if they do or not. Making a claim that they can't is just as lacking in actual evidence than making the claim that they could.

But while we're on that note, do I think Doflamingo or Katakuri would be able to deal a minor cut or injury to Kaido if they were to replace one of the Scabbards and assault him collectively as they did? You bet I do. In Katakuri's case, common sense would dictate that it would make the attack hurt even more.

But that is not the topic, so just giving my 2 cents. We may disagree on this.



Kylo Ren said:


> Doesnt negate that the attack power is the same, unless if you can prove that those slashes that hit queen and zoro had different power in them.


Wait...I forgot what this was about. Shit.


Kylo Ren said:


> You see it as King bypass Marco regen because of Haki and I see it as King tech to be able to cut fire. Which is righ, which is wrong. Who knows. Lets see.


Okay. But Haki is pretty much automatic at this level, at this point of the series lol.

If it was some other unique ability or just a skill that King has to cut his flames, hell I'd be all for it since it would at least be less repetitive.



Kylo Ren said:


> My bad.
> 
> But what I mean with that is, king lack the feat and hype that he has an amazing coa haki that can hurt Kaido. Thats all.


I think he has the hype...

The fact that he's matched up against Zoro and proving to be a tough adversary; the fact that he's Kaido's right hand man as I previously stated; the fact that he can push Marco, and the fact that the stronger the fighter in the New World usually means having stronger Haki. We'll see though.



Kylo Ren said:


> "Such tunnel vision thinking" lmao.
> 
> Why would I only consider that they can because far lesser character could do it.


Because it would be equally premature as claiming that they would. This is very much a chicken and the egg situation.


Kylo Ren said:


> When,* there is also a greater character that couldnt* and far lesser character could? I guess you like to dismiss this part.


Which one? Pre-Udon Luffy?

Why should one character, the main character (who has a history of initially stumbling against the arc boss) be used as a precedent for King?

I'm not dismissing it, but again there are just too many variables involved in all instances.



Kylo Ren said:


> Where's my evidence of this? I said as long as King's haki is not highlighted as someone strong coa user then I only suggest that the doffy case is likely to happen.


Fair.



Kylo Ren said:


> How about you? As far as im concern there is no single Haki feat king have or state that he is some special haki user just like Katakuri in terms of coo.


For me the feat doesn't really matter. Your claim becomes officially valid in the scenario when King actually falls/is defeated _without_ showing any CoA proficiency.

The fact that he's been matched up against and fought powerful Haki users is good enough for me. Of course, if he doesn't showcase this before going down, the same applies. I would be wrong and there would never be proof regardless. Advanced CoA isn't being treated like Advanced CoC. It doesn't have the visual cues or colour codes to distinguish it as being unique. The only visual requirement is hurting Kaido...which King can never prove, because he is never in a position in the plot where he has to fight or hurt Kaido.




Kylo Ren said:


> Well, he hasnt shown that he have necessary Haki. Its that simple but that doesnt mean it will stay that way. All I was asking is, he show me first before I believe that he can.



Alright then, I'll leave you to it.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Kylo Ren (Oct 22, 2021)

Oda Report said:


> The fact that Kings attack power is overwhelming Zoros attack power who was able to permanently damage kaidou with broken bones.
> King is the right hand of Kaidou, and if you guys think King would get 1 shitted by Kaidou like Luffy did, yall crazy lmao thats not how right hands and captains get down.


I never claim that King would get one shotted just the idea that he could take Kaido 1v1 and be able hurt him when we havent shown that King posses adcoa and adcoc or an attack similar to Killer sound attack and Kidd pressuring attack.

Also, that King overwhelming attack did nothing when it hit Queen.

The only Zoro attack that clash against King attack is tiger hunt if it's the one that Kaido dodge or asura then Ill admit King attack can hurt Kaido but its not and lets not act as if every Zoro attack have the same attack power of the one scar Kaido or the one that BM said he should dodge.


Mihawk said:


> But that's being dismissive of one thing.
> 
> Doflamingo and Katakuri were defeated in the previous arcs and are not even relevant at the moment. This method of "hurting" Kaido was only introduced in the current arc, in which they are not present and have no connection to its events. It's more honest to acknowledge that than concluding_ they don't have the tools to hurt Kaido. _We don't know if they do or not. Making a claim that they can't is just as lacking in actual evidence than making the claim that they could.
> 
> ...


Doffy and Katakuri, we know what they can do and we know all their skill set and none of their known ability had indication that they could hurt Kaido. Same goes for King at the moment.

even if they reappear like in your example if they replace the scabbard that will be a new feat that apparently doesnt exist yet. Thats all im asking instead of jumping the gun we should focus on what we currently have with them. I might be proven wrong by the time King and Zoro fight conclude and the chances are very high that im wrong but until they havent show that they have what it takes to hurt Kaido, I will continue to dismiss that they can.

Lets move on, this is an old topic anyway. Lets wait for a new one if King has been shown fighting again.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BladeofTheMorning (Oct 23, 2021)

Luffy to me, realistically died long time ago in Alabasta. . . TWICE. 

King is not overrated for those who are making that assumption. Zoro put a beat down on Kaido with a scar that's a beast of a feat and no he's being pushed by King through Onigashima. Who is to say King can't scar Kaido? He never would because he has no reason to fight him. Only time will tell.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Oda Report (Oct 23, 2021)

Kylo Ren said:


> I never claim that King would get one shotted just the idea that he could take Kaido 1v1 and be able hurt him when we havent shown that King posses adcoa and adcoc or an attack similar to Killer sound attack and Kidd pressuring attack.



I understand, however if King is overwhelming Zoro with random no name spam attacks and Zoro has issues just guarding wouldn't you say Kings AP is equal or greater to Zoros?



Kylo Ren said:


> Also, that King overwhelming attack did nothing when it hit Queen.



That's cool it wasn't anything serious for king either, sent Zoro into another area just by guarding. 



Kylo Ren said:


> The only Zoro attack that clash against King attack is tiger hunt if it's the one that Kaido dodge or asura then Ill admit King attack can hurt Kaido but its not and lets not act as if every Zoro attack have the same attack power of the one scar Kaido or the one that BM said he should dodge.



A Zoro with broken bones on his last leg < Healthy Zoro who King is rag dolling with casual attacks.


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## Nox (Oct 24, 2021)

Jay. said:


> so what will happen if zoro won't beat king?



He will kill Kaido.


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## stealthblack (Oct 24, 2021)

Doflamingo> king so far. King needs to show some crazy advanced haki FEATS, right now he just strippin

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Eustathios (Oct 24, 2021)

King is underrated if anything. He'd give Kaido a good fight.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Oct 24, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> King is underrated if anything. He'd give Kaido a good fight.


Doubt it, queen is very close to king in strength, and big mom beat queen in like 2 hits with no haki involved

pushes kaido to mid at best

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eustathios (Oct 24, 2021)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Doubt it, queen is very close to king in strength, and big mom beat queen in like 2 hits with no haki involved
> 
> pushes kaido to mid at best


Mid diff is a good fight. 

Queen's plan worked in the end. He was faking it to buy time, which was the best move.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## GreenEggsAHam (Oct 24, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Mid diff is a good fight.
> 
> Queen's plan worked in the end. He was faking it to buy time, which was the best move.


Oh ok, I thought you meant something like high-diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## Oda Report (Oct 24, 2021)

stealthblack said:


> Doflamingo> king so far. King needs to show some crazy advanced haki FEATS, right now he just strippin



Duffy would lose to Marco. King beat marco off panel 1v1 didn't even reveal hybrid. King is a right hand of kaidou whom is fighting another right hand in Zoro. 

Right hands take in a different air of power then let's say Queen or Jack who are also on the crew. 

It's been a long time since Zoro has been overwhelmed by no name attacks even while guarding them or clashing. 

The king always be greater than a joker in this card game.


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## Conxc (Oct 24, 2021)

This thread is a joke. No matter what King does people will just use his success to downplay Zoro rather than realizing that King is probably just that strong. There are kids that think Luffy low-mid diffs him after all. I don’t see how he’s overrated.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Jay. (Oct 25, 2021)

he'll use the move against pica and mihawk against king as well


issa poem

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Rob (Oct 25, 2021)

forkandspoon said:


> Flying DFs have been hyped since alibaster…. We are finally seeing why


Fucking loved the alibaster arc

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kishido (Oct 25, 2021)



Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 19, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jun 19, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jun 19, 2022)

Eustathios said:


> King is underrated if anything. He'd give Kaido a good fight.

Reactions: Funny 9


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## Eustathios (Jun 19, 2022)

o0Shinthi0o said:


>

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 4 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Jun 19, 2022)

They called OP a madman


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## Casval Rem Aznable (Jun 19, 2022)

Kaido's commanders are just fodders..king is still somewhat respectable despite being the weakest YC1, but Queen and Jack are simply disgustingly pathetic.
Beckman > Marco > Kata > King

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ludi (Jun 19, 2022)

Some comments aged worse than milk


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## Eustathios (Jun 19, 2022)

To my defense, I said a good fight would be a mid diff fight and I believe the general consensus was that people like Kata and King would push Kaido to low-mid diff


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## Amol (Jun 19, 2022)




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## Corax (Jun 19, 2022)

King is just on his place. YC1 hasn't been a thing since WCI.


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## GiantForehead (Jun 19, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## ShWanks (Jun 19, 2022)

I been telling people this with factual proof from panels. It was common sense. Katakuri is a CONQUEROR that conceded to Luffy. He could be stronger than Marco in a death match for all we know all out.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 19, 2022)

You're still wrong, King is still clearly stronger than Kata, and being low diffed by someone who would low diff Kata doesn't change that

Reactions: Optimistic 3 | Dislike 2


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## GiantForehead (Jun 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> You're still wrong, King is still clearly stronger than Kata, and being low diffed by someone who would low diff Kata doesn't change that


No advanced haki

No awakening

No hoes

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 3


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## ShWanks (Jun 19, 2022)

King would struggle massively to even hit Katakuri let alone Ko him...

Katakuri's reaction speed is significantly better than Zoro's who King could barely keep up with &/or touch. Katakuri's has noticably better armament Haki feats which means even if King could manage to hit him a few times he'd easily block everything.

King's only threat is his imperial dragon which is way too slow to touch Katakuri...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShWanks (Jun 19, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


>


"King's durability can no sell Kizaru's lasers"

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Gledania (Jun 19, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> lives rent free


He rent free in your head as well

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> "King's durability can no sell Kizaru's lasers"



_Lost to a branch   _

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 19, 2022)

GiantForehead said:


> No advanced haki
> 
> No awakening
> 
> No hoes


Katakuri was beat by someone who got one shotted by Kaido and couldn't damage him at all
King was soundly beating someone who didn't get one shotted by Kaido and could damage him significantly.

King > Kata is clear and obvious

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Katakuri was beat by someone who got one shotted by Kaido and couldn't damage him at all
> King was soundly beating someone who didn't get one shotted by Kaido and could damage him significantly.
> 
> King > Kata is clear and obvious



_King + Queen + army got no diffed by Green Bull

Green Bull  >>> Kaido   _

Reactions: Funny 2


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## GiantForehead (Jun 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Katakuri was beat by someone who got one shotted by Kaido and couldn't damage him at all
> King was soundly beating someone who didn't get one shotted by Kaido and could damage him significantly.
> 
> King > Kata is clear and obvious

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Casval Rem Aznable (Jun 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> You're still wrong, King is still clearly stronger than Kata, and being low diffed by someone who would low diff Kata doesn't change that


You should read One Piece instead of Two Piece. One Piece is on the shonen jump app/viz website.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 19, 2022)

Great argument 

Kata would be in the exact same position. Doesn't change the facts I stated.


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## Freechoice (Jun 19, 2022)

Eustathios said:


>


Instead of these talking heads as a response you should hang your head in shame and learn a valuable lesson

Despicable behaviour


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## ShWanks (Jun 19, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Lost to a branch  _


Like seriously, I'm honestly triggered people seriously believed he could tank Kizaru's lasers....like I rarely advocate for Admirals but that was way too much. It's like people don't even read OP.


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## GiantForehead (Jun 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Great argument
> 
> Kata would be in the exact same position. Doesn't change the facts I stated.


King is fodder bud. Marco kicked him around in a 2v1, and he got neg diffed by an admiral 

Even yc2 jozu managed to avoid a neg. I guess YC1 isn't a real indication of strength, since King is clearly the weakest when compared to his peers

Reactions: Like 2


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 19, 2022)

Casval Rem Aznable said:


> You should read One Piece instead of Two Piece. One Piece is on the shonen jump app/viz website.


King beating someone who has better feats than the guy who beat Kata is Two Piece?

Ok


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## ShWanks (Jun 19, 2022)

GiantForehead said:


> King is fodder bud. Marco kicked him around in a 2v1, and he got neg diffed by an admiral
> 
> Even yc2 jozu managed to avoid a neg. I guess YC1 isn't a real indication of strength, since King is clearly the weakest when compared to his peers


Lmao you're right even Doffy's lawn chair did better

Reactions: Winner 2


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## ShWanks (Jun 19, 2022)




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## Strobacaxi (Jun 19, 2022)

GiantForehead said:


> King is fodder bud. Marco kicked him around in a 2v1, and he got neg diffed by an admiral


King beat Marco in a 1v1
Marco did no damage to him
King wasn't even panting after beating him

King after beating Marco: "Am I sweating? No, it's raining, this fool could never make me sweat"

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Garcher (Jun 19, 2022)

King > Marco > Kata

Marco and Kata fanboys need to lay down the copium.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## GiantForehead (Jun 19, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Lmao you're right even Doffy's lawn chair did better


Damn you're right, he did

Reactions: Funny 1


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## GiantForehead (Jun 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> King beat Marco in a 1v1
> Marco did no damage to him
> King wasn't even panting after beating him
> 
> King after beating Marco: "Am I sweating? No, it's raining, this fool could never make me sweat"





Garcher said:


> King > Marco > Kata
> 
> Marco and Kata fanboys need to lay down the *copium*.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## GiantForehead (Jun 19, 2022)

Basically this thread

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Garcher (Jun 19, 2022)

What has all commanders being fodder to Admirals to do with anything?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShWanks (Jun 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> King beat Marco in a 1v1
> Marco did no damage to him
> King wasn't even panting after beating him
> 
> King after beating Marco: "Am I sweating? No, it's raining, this fool could never make me sweat"


So we gonna ignore Marco simultaneously healing THOUSANDS of fodder after solo fighting King & Queen before fighting King + flying gifters?

Marco > King

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jun 19, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> So we gonna ignore Marco simultaneously healing THOUSANDS of fodder after solo fighting King & Queen before fighting King + flying gifters?
> 
> Marco > King


We are. Marco never even remotely hinted at that one move having a significant impact on his stamina. Headcanon is just that. Headcanon. Also, he wasn't healing, the fire was warming them up and stopping the virus, he wasn't healing their damage

It's one move. The fire then continues burning, Marco doesn't need to keep it burning.


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## ShWanks (Jun 19, 2022)

Don't ever compare that bozo "Princess" to Warco


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## GiantForehead (Jun 19, 2022)

Garcher said:


> What does all commanders being fodder to Admirals to do with anything?


Jozu vs Aokiji:




Marco vs Kizaru




Marco vs Aokiji





...King vs GB


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## TheTwelfthKenpachi (Jun 19, 2022)

In my opinion, Marco>King=Katakuri

Maybe King would have the edge over Katakuri but yeah it's how I rank them overall


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## ShWanks (Jun 19, 2022)

TheTwelfthKenpachi said:


> In my opinion, Marco>King=Katakuri
> 
> Maybe King would have the edge over Katakuri but yeah it's how I rank them overall


Tbh I have it that way as well if we're talking WCI Katakuri. Katakuri is a conquer & they have insane potential. He probably got a buff after that 12hr battle with Luffy. Newbie Gains, he never had an extreme diff fight before Luffy despite BM Pirates knowing how strong King is. That begs the question, did Katakuri & BM defeat Kaido & King in the past leading to King swearing to Kaido he'd never get defeated like Zoro & Luffy? Kaido does have 7 loses excluding Oden.

Reactions: Like 2


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## TheTwelfthKenpachi (Jun 19, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Tbh I have it that way as well if we're talking WCI Katakuri. Katakuri is a conquer & they have insane potential. He probably got a buff after that 12hr battle with Luffy. Newbie Gains, he never had an extreme diff fight before Luffy despite BM Pirates knowing how strong King is. That begs the question, did Katakuri & BM defeat Kaido & King in the past leading to King swearing to Kaido he'd never get defeated?


Yup, talking about WCI Katakuri.
If we were to see him again, I would expect him to be even slitghtly stronger.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 19, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 6 | Winner 3


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## ShWanks (Jun 19, 2022)

TheTwelfthKenpachi said:


> Yup, talking about WCI Katakuri.
> If we were to see him again, I would expect him to be even slitghtly stronger.


Yea I don't think we got a good grasp on Katakuri's true strength because he fought Luffy who's can't take fall damage & is massively resistant to blunt force. Katakuri's Finisher is heavily fall damage & blunt force based & even then Luffy still said it hurts meaning that Diced Mochi Slam has serious impact to it

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheTwelfthKenpachi (Jun 19, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Yea I don't think we got a good grasp on Katakuri's true strength because he fought Luffy who's can't take fall damage & is massively resistant to blunt force. Katakuri's Finisher is heavily fall damage & blunt force based & even then Luffy still said it hurts meaning that Diced Mochi Slam has serious impact to it


Also imo Luffy did not surpass Katakuri until post-Udon, up until that point, Katakuri would've won in a fair 1v1 fight to death to me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Casval Rem Aznable (Jun 19, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> King beating someone who has better feats than the guy who beat Kata is Two Piece.
> 
> Ok


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