# Doflamingo vs Yonko Commanders.



## Extravlad (Sep 1, 2016)

Individually.

Doflamingo vs Vista

Doflamingo vs Jozu

Doflamingo vs Jack

Doflamingov vs Cracker.

I think he doesn't win any of those fights, share your opinions guys.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 1, 2016)

Loses to Jozu/Jack with high-diff at most
Loses to Cracker with high-extreme difficulty
Defeats Vista with high-extreme difficulty


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## Quipchaque (Sep 1, 2016)

I see Dofla win against Vista by current feats. Jozu probably wins his defense and probably armament haki (given how he relies on tanking) are better and parasite was left amigous how effective it would be against Jozu. Against Jack no idea but Cracker would definitely win with his devil fruit gimmicks and powerful haki and chances are that guy is merely warming up so no doubt about that one.


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## gajoobwalrus (Sep 1, 2016)

Doflamingo high-extreme diffs Vista w/ superior versatility, physicals, & likely Haki
Doflamingo vs Jozu is a toss-up imo. MF Jozu takes down Doffy extreme diff imo, while I believe it's the other way around with one-armed Jozu.
I see Jack tanking most of what Doffy can do, & matching, if not surpassing his endurance levels. But Doflamingo has a serious edge in versatility & manuverability, so he takes it extreme diff, unless Jack is Kaido's FM, which I don't see happening. 
Cracker is going to high-extreme diff Doffy. He has stronger "clones" than Doffy, better Haki, & more potent offensive power, shown when he was able to hurt G4 several times like Doffy couldn't, with less effort. & I have the feeling that this is only the beginning of his power as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## zoro (Sep 1, 2016)

He loses them all


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## TheWiggian (Sep 1, 2016)

He loses all, my opinion haven't changed.


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## Imagine (Sep 1, 2016)

Current chap drives home Doflamingo not being yonkou commander level (minus Ace)


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## Amol (Sep 1, 2016)

Yeah I am going with he loses all too. He may have shot with Vista though. Though that would be still a toss up.


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## Mr. Good vibes (Sep 1, 2016)

Beats Vista loses to the rest.


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## Kaiser (Sep 1, 2016)

I'd have said he'd defeat Vista and lose to the rest before, but with the past chapters revealing Cracker this powerful(looking stronger than Mingo) when he may not even be the strongest swordsman in Big Mom's crew(Bobbins is another possibility), i'd find it weird if it was Whitebeard who had a weaker swordsman in his crew when Oda usually tends to place them very high in crews ranking, and with Cracker's displayed lethality against g4, Vista probably can do as much especially since Cracker isn't portrayed to be as offensive as Vista is implied to be, so he may actually lose them all


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## Dunno (Sep 1, 2016)

Doflamingo vs Vista - Doflamingo wins with high diff.

Doflamingo vs Jozu - Doflamingo wins with high diff.

Doflamingo vs Jack - Doflamingo wins with mid diff.

Doflamingov vs Cracker - Doflamingo wins with high diff.


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## Gohara (Sep 1, 2016)

1. Doflamingo wins with around mid difficulty at most.  Doflamingo has better portrayal than Jozu, who is more powerful than Vista.  Additionally, Doflamingo is more versatile than Vista is from what we've seen so far.

2. Doflamingo wins with high to extremely high difficulty for similar reasoning as above.

3. It depends on where Jack ranks in The Beast Pirates.  I would lean towards Doflamingo winning if Jack is the 4th or 5th most powerful Beast Commander.  I'm not sure who would win if Jack is the 2nd or 3rd most powerful Beast Commander.  I would likely lean towards Jack winning if he's the 2nd most powerful Beast Commander, and Doflamingo winning if Jack is the 3rd most powerful Beast Commander, although I think that it would be a great match up either way.  If Jack is the 1st most powerful Beast Commander, then he likely wins.

4. Similar as above.

Of course, this is all just IMO.


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## Spirit King (Sep 2, 2016)

DD loses to all bar Vista due to his fairly poor dc (If he can't damage G4 and Luffy can I find it difficult to believe he can even hurt most of these guys is they're at a similar level.


Gohara said:


> 1. Doflamingo wins with around mid difficulty at most.  Doflamingo has better portrayal than Jozu, who is more powerful than Vista.  Additionally, Doflamingo is more versatile than Vista is from what we've seen so far.
> 
> 2. Doflamingo wins with high to extremely high difficulty for similar reasoning as above.
> 
> ...



Why would Crackers rank matter at all and determine whether doffy wins wins or loses. He has much better featsvin all categories bar versatility in which he's roughly equal and endurance which was not shown, but he can use his armour and can make an army of clones that doffy won't be able to Handle. Powerscaling also works against doffy not for him


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## Nekochako (Sep 2, 2016)

Doflamingo vs Vista-I don't think Vista is Yonko top level so Doflamingo wins high diff. 

Doflamingo vs Jozu-Jozu wins high/extreme diff. 

Doflamingo vs Jack-I still see Jack as stronger as Cracker so he wins high diff probably. 

Doflamingo vs Cracker-After the latest chapter Cracker is most likely stronger. Doubt he is much stronger since you have to consider that Doflamingo was injured when he got owned by the G4 that Cracker is now giving a challenge too but regardless of what i see no reason to put Doffy above Cracker for now.


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## Quipchaque (Sep 2, 2016)

Nekomamushi said:


> Doflamingo vs Vista-I don't think Vista is Yonko top level so Doflamingo wins high diff.
> 
> Doflamingo vs Jozu-Jozu wins high/extreme diff.
> 
> ...



You have a point about Doflamingo´s injuries but remember so did Luffy. Sure his injuries were less severe but overall they had just as much of an impact on Luffy as Doffy´s had because while it´s true Luffy took less damage we have to keep in mind that he also is less tanky than Dofla so overall they could very well have been at the same health state.

Example:

Let´s say these are their health points---> Luffy 100 in total, Doflamingo 150

and after the damage inflicted on both of them---> luffy takes 25 damage and goes down to 75 and Doflamingo takes 75 damage and goes down to 75 as well. That´s very possible and imo what the autor tried to say when he made Luffy say "you too seem pretty roughed up just like me".


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## MYJC (Sep 2, 2016)

Vista - Doffy high diffs
Jozu - Doffy high/extreme diffs (Jozu can't get out of Parasite)
Jack -  Not sure, need more feats
Cracker - Not sure, Cracker is overall more powerful but it depends on how he can deal with Parasite and Awakening


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## Spirit King (Sep 2, 2016)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You have a point about Doflamingo´s injuries but remember so did Luffy. Sure his injuries were less severe but overall they had just as much of an impact on Luffy as Doffy´s had because while it´s true Luffy took less damage we have to keep in mind that he also is less tanky than Dofla so overall they could very well have been at the same health state.
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...


The thing with Doffy is we know his max damage output which is awakening it's completely external from him and would not be affected by his own injuries, he still couldn't damage G4 despite trying his hardest to. Cracker can spam clones with durability Doffy can't even get past. If he tried to control Cracker could liquify and reform ignoring whether Doffy can even get past the clear gap in Haki. 

There's also a very high chance we're never going to see Doffy fight like the again, so assumed top limits is nothing but fanwank we won't see it so it shouldn't be relevant outside of the damage he can take and feats prior to that. Oda made Doffy show everything considering his role as a villain and position there's no reason to secretly hide powers that doffy has but will never be displayed.


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## savior2005 (Sep 2, 2016)

i think it depends on what cracker's and jack's rank is. also, if luffy beats cracker, how would that look? i mean an injured doffy managed to withstand g4.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Sep 2, 2016)

Spirit King said:


> The thing with Doffy is we know his max damage output which is awakening it's completely external from him and would not be affected by his own injuries, he still couldn't damage G4 despite trying his hardest to. Cracker can spam clones with durability Doffy can't even get past. If he tried to control Cracker could liquify and reform ignoring whether Doffy can even get past the clear gap in Haki.
> 
> There's also a very high chance we're never going to see Doffy fight like the again, so assumed top limits is nothing but fanwank we won't see it so it shouldn't be relevant outside of the damage he can take and feats prior to that. Oda made Doffy show everything considering his role as a villain and position there's no reason to secretly hide powers that doffy has but will never be displayed.




True tho I am just bringing this up since Neko was saying that Doflamingo could have done better without the injures and thus the gap between him and Cracker should be small which I don´t believe for the simple fact that the same would apply to Luffy and considering what you said actually even more so to him since Gear 4 relies on stamina while awakening does not. So yeah I think we can agree that Cracker is noticably stronger by current portrayal.


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## Beast (Sep 3, 2016)

savior2005 said:


> i think it depends on what cracker's and jack's rank is. also, if luffy beats cracker, how would that look? i mean an injured doffy managed to withstand g4.


We've seen on panel crackers army with stand a G4 gatling which I have no doubt would KO any version of DD... fresh or not. Doesn't matter How Luffy wins at this point.


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## Sherlōck (Sep 3, 2016)

He loses all of them.


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## savior2005 (Sep 3, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> We've seen on panel crackers army with stand a G4 gatling which I have no doubt would KO any version of DD... fresh or not. Doesn't matter How Luffy wins at this point.


didnt each of the cracker get only hit by one punch. luffy did the gatling to hit each of them. plus didnt doffy get hit by multiple g4 attacks and survive the ten minutes?


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## Spirit King (Sep 3, 2016)

savior2005 said:


> didnt each of the cracker get only hit by one punch. luffy did the gatling to hit each of them. plus didnt doffy get hit by multiple g4 attacks and survive the ten minutes?


Doffy got ragdolled by every direct G4 hit. Crackers clones sustained and moved forward


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## Beast (Sep 3, 2016)

Spirit King said:


> Doffy got ragdolled by every direct G4 hit. Crackers clones sustained and moved forward


This.

There was only 6 or so clones. 
Gatling isn't only 6 hits.


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## Gohara (Sep 3, 2016)

@ Spirit King.

Ranks of similarly powerful Pirate Crews are likely to put similarly ranked characters around the same league of power.

I respectfully disagree that Cracker's level of versatility is comparable to Doflamingo's.  I'm not necessarily saying that Doflamingo is leagues more versatile than Cracker is, but Doflamingo excels in virtually every category.  Cracker might too, but we've barely seen him fight, so I wouldn't yet rank him around Doflamingo's league in terms of versatility.


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## Empathy (Sep 3, 2016)

Beats Vista and Cracker (for now), loses to Jozu, and no clue about Jack (for now he beats him I guess, since he's barely shown anything).


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## barreltheif (Sep 4, 2016)

Spirit King said:


> Doffy got ragdolled by every direct G4 hit. Crackers clones sustained and moved forward



Doffy's defense (awakening) stalled G4 just as well as Cracker's defense (a team of soldiers).




savior2005 said:


> didnt each of the cracker get only hit by one punch. luffy did the gatling to hit each of them. plus didnt doffy get hit by multiple g4 attacks and survive the ten minutes?



Where did you get 10 minutes? It was 20 minutes. Right before Luffy uses G4, Doffy says that there are 30 minutes until people start dying from birdcage. Then after awakening there are 10 minutes left.


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## savior2005 (Sep 4, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Where did you get 10 minutes? It was 20 minutes. Right before Luffy uses G4, Doffy says that there are 30 minutes until people start dying from birdcage. Then after awakening there are 10 minutes left.


sorry my bad. i thought g4 was 10 minutes. altho this just helps my case so thanks


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## BackFromtheDead (Sep 4, 2016)

Gohara said:


> 1. Doflamingo wins with around mid difficulty at most.  Doflamingo has better portrayal than Jozu, who is more powerful than Vista.  Additionally, Doflamingo is more versatile than Vista is from what we've seen so far.
> 
> 2. Doflamingo wins with high to extremely high difficulty for similar reasoning as above.
> 
> ...


How is Jozu (WB's second mate) gonna lose against Doffy but Jack would win if he's in the same position on the Beasts Pirates? Lol WB>=Kaido

Reactions: Agree 1


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## barreltheif (Sep 4, 2016)

BackFromtheDead said:


> How is Jozu (WB's second mate) gonna lose against Doffy but Jack would win if he's in the same position on the Beasts Pirates? Lol WB>=Kaido



WB being stronger than Kaido doesn't mean his subordinates are stronger than Kaido's. If anything, it's the opposite, since the yonkou crews were probably fairly balanced despite WB being the strongest captain.


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## BackFromtheDead (Sep 4, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> WB being stronger than Kaido doesn't mean his subordinates are stronger than Kaido's. If anything, it's the opposite, since the yonkou crews were probably fairly balanced despite WB being the strongest captain.


I mean that might be a fair theory you have but when has that shown itself true? Benn Beckman certainly didn't look better against Marco at Marineford.


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## Typhon (Sep 4, 2016)

Definitely beats Jozu and Vista.


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## Harard (Sep 4, 2016)

For the people who are not sure whether Cracker is stronger than Doffy, know this. Big Mom specifically sent him to deal with Luffy because of the fact that Luffy defeated Doflamingo. That alone should be enough reason to give Cracker the benefit of the doubt vs Doffy.


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## convict (Sep 4, 2016)

^No it should not. How many times does Oda have to draw antagonists overestimating their underlings for us to take their own opinions with a giant grain of salt?

With that said Jozu and Jack take him mid-high diff, while Vista and Cracker take him solid high diff.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Sep 4, 2016)

convict said:


> ^No it should not. How many times does Oda have to draw antagonists overestimating their underlings for us to take their own opinions with a giant grain of salt?
> 
> With that said Jozu and Jack take him mid-high diff, while Vista and Cracker take him solid high diff.



No antagonists has ever sent a subordinate to deal with Luffy strictly because he was strong enough to beat a certain opponent it's clearly different from the other situations that Luffy has been in.

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## ShadoLord (Sep 4, 2016)

Doflamingo should be around the weakest member of the Yonko's top three. 

Going to favor Doffy over Cracker and it could go either way with Vista and Jack.


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## Harard (Sep 4, 2016)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> No antagonists underling has ever sent a subordinate to deal with Luffy strictly because he was strong enough to beat a certain opponent it's clearly different from the other situations that Luffy has been in.



Exactly!

it's clear that Oda was trying to imply that Cracker should be even stronger than Dofla. Dofla isn't Luffy nor Zoro for that matter....Oda isn't going to give him the same treatment he gives those two. Why would he? And then on top of that, you have Luffy mentioning Cracker's CoA was unlike anything he's ever faced. 

Based on hype alone, Cracker should get the benefit of the doubt.


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## Yuki (Sep 4, 2016)

Harard said:


> Exactly!
> 
> it's clear that Oda was trying to imply that Cracker should be even stronger than Dofla. Dofla isn't Luffy nor Zoro for that matter....Oda isn't going to give him the same treatment he gives those two. Why would he? And then on top of that, you have Luffy mentioning Cracker's CoA was unlike anything he's ever faced.
> 
> Based on hype alone, Cracker should get the benefit of the doubt.



1. Every pirate overrates their own people and underrates everyone else. This has been shown way too many times for you to remain ignorant to it.

2. That was a mistranslation. Luffy only said it was strong.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Sep 4, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> 1. Every pirate overrates their own people and underrates everyone else. This has been shown way too many times for you to remain ignorant to it.
> 
> 2. That was a mistranslation. Luffy only said it was strong.


Which Antagonist has ever sent his/her underling to deal with Luffy strictly because of his accomplishment based on strength?


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## Yuki (Sep 4, 2016)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Which Antagonist has ever sent his/her underling to deal with Luffy strictly because of his accomplishment based on strength?



Crocodile sent Mr 2 to deal with the entire SH crew and Mr 3.

Enel sent his men out to take out the SHs not intending to lift a finger him self.

There are probably a couple more examples but yea...


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## Imagine (Sep 5, 2016)

Harard said:


> For the people who are not sure whether Cracker is stronger than Doffy, know this. Big Mom specifically sent him to deal with Luffy because of the fact that Luffy defeated Doflamingo. That alone should be enough reason to give Cracker the benefit of the doubt vs Doffy.


He doesn't even need the benefit of the doubt. Cracker cut G4 Luffy's arm with a plain slash whereas Dofla couldn't even scratch him. Base Luffy blocked Dofla's awakened strings with his haki, then he goes on to say that Cracker has the hardest haki he's come across.

Dofla could just barely react to G4 Luffy while Cracker has no problems doing so even in one of his armors.

Cracker blatantly has the feats that Dofla doesn't.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Sep 5, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Crocodile sent Mr 2 to deal with the entire SH crew and Mr 3.
> 
> Enel sent his men out to take out the SHs not intending to lift a finger him self.
> 
> There are probably a couple more examples but yea...



Did you even read what I posted ? I never asked when have subordinates capabilities been overestimated but rather when have they been *specifically sent to deal with Luffy because of his accomplishment based on strength.* 

Big mom clearly took a different approach from all those examples she specifically sent Cracker not because she loves to dick ride her crew but because Luffy was strong enough to beat Doflamingo. There is a clear distinction there as apposed to the previous antagonist. If she really was underestimating Luffy she wouldn't have even bother to send Cracker to help out brulee.


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## Yuki (Sep 5, 2016)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Did you even read what I posted ? I never asked when have subordinates capabilities been overestimated but rather when have they been *specifically sent to deal with Luffy because of his accomplishment based on strength.*
> 
> Big mom clearly took a different approach from all those examples she specifically sent Cracker not because she loves to dick ride her crew but because Luffy was strong enough to beat Doflamingo. There is a clear distinction there as apposed to the previous antagonist. If she really was underestimating Luffy she wouldn't have even bother to send Cracker to help out brulee.



Not really, it just means she thinks Cracker was capable of taking down DD.

Which in and off it's self is overrating her own crew member.

It's just like Marco when he asked Vista to take care of Mihawk.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Sep 5, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Not really, it just means she thinks Cracker was capable of taking down DD.
> 
> Which in and off it's self is overrating her own crew member.
> 
> *It's just like Marco when he asked Vista to take care of Mihawk.*


Don't see how her thinking Cracker a man worth 860mil been capable of taking down DD constitutes to overrating. 


Vista was actually capable of stopping Mihawk so how exactly did Marco overate his capabilities?


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## Yuki (Sep 5, 2016)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> Don't see how her thinking Cracker a man worth 860mil been capable of taking down DD constitutes to overrating.
> 
> 
> Vista was actually capable of stopping Mihawk so how exactly did Marco overate his capabilities?



As said by many bounty means very little, even more so as DDs was frozen a hell of a long time ago. 

She is overrating Cracker because she thinks he could handle Luffy+ friends by him self even though Luffy took down DD and she does not even know the specifics. For all she knows Luffy man handed and then stomped DD. 

A Mihawk that was barely even trying, yes of course.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Sep 5, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> As said by many bounty means very little, even more so as DDs was frozen a hell of a long time ago.
> 
> She is overrating Cracker because she thinks he could handle Luffy+ friends by him self even though Luffy took down DD and she does not even know the specifics. For all she knows Luffy man handed and then stomped DD.
> 
> A Mihawk that was barely even trying, yes of course.



Bounty isn't everything sure but it's stupid to think that somebody with a bounty of over 800mil would be on Franky's level. DD's bounty would probably be 680 at max but Luffy's bounty only rose to 500mil for taking down DD so that should say it all.

She sent Cracker to deal with Luffy not the rest geez. Brulee, Randolph, the crane and the homies were all present Cracker was there to take care of Luffy because Big mom knew Brulee would not be capable of bringing down Luffy. 

I could easily say the same thing for Vista. Marco never sent Vista because he knew Mihawk was barely trying he sent him because he knew Vista could actually stall Mihawk it's straight forward portrayal


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## Spirit King (Sep 5, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Crocodile sent Mr 2 to deal with the entire SH crew and Mr 3.
> 
> Enel sent his men out to take out the SHs not intending to lift a finger him self.
> 
> There are probably a couple more examples but yea...


Big Mom isn't underestimating anyone that much is obvious. She was surprised Luffy didn't manage to defeat Cracker despite it being obvious by feats that he was stronger than Doffy. Even remarking maybe he was all talk and had contingency plans in case Luffy won.
She is one of the most careful calculating and influencial characters introduced and I'm struggling how people are even pretending to consider Donflamingo is stronger when his strongerst attacks can do jack shit to Crackers clones and the difference in haki levels between the two. Oda really couldn't be more explicit. Might as well be arguing Crocodile late into pretimskip. Which is exactly what Donflamingo is. Post timeskip Crocodile. It took Luffy 3 battles to defeat him and by the end it was by the skin of his teeth. Even during Luffy's battle with donflamingo it was obvious he was above him outside of durability and the at the time limitations to his form.

Donflamingo is no beast in the new world, there's a reason he was shit scared of the yonkou and admirals anytime it was implied they would go after him. He's a better than average NW pirate.


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## Extravlad (Sep 5, 2016)

Spirit King said:


> Big Mom isn't underestimating anyone that much is obvious. She was surprised Luffy didn't manage to defeat Cracker despite it being obvious by feats that he was stronger than Doffy. Even remarking maybe he was all talk and had contingency plans in case Luffy won.


Bigmom thinks Cracker > Doffy


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## Spirit King (Sep 5, 2016)

Extravlad said:


> Bigmom thinks Cracker > Doffy


Yeah and I'm pretty sure a Yonkou in story would have greater grasp of power levels than you or I currently do. Considering she's about as top tier as it comes. There's absolutely no logical reason story wise or others to assume she's wrong, Doffy's role in the story is already done.


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## Bogard (Sep 5, 2016)

Offensive power: Cracker, he could cut 1/3 of gear4 Luffy's arm with no name attack when Doflamingo had issues going through Base Luffy's defense with awakening attacks

Defense: Cracker, could block a barrage of kong gun attacks when gear4's raw strength was going through Doflamingo's strongest awakening attacks and sending him flying himself

Haki: Cracker, could block elephant gun and hawk gatling when Doflamingo was sent flying by hawk bazooka with base Luffy's punches going through his hardening defense. Not to mention with the hype of having "too hard haki" that Luffy never gave to anyone before

Reaction/Combat speed: Cracker, could counter-attack a Kong Gun offense move from a geppo moving Luffy who blitzed Doflamingo with a similar maneuver using rhino schneider, could cut gear4 Kong Gun mid attack

Versatility: Could go either way. Doflamingo can fly, create a clone(gear2 can one shot it with jet gatling), transform a city into awakening strings upgrading his environmental control, and can parasite people weaker than gear2&3 Luffy. On the other side Cracker may have only displayed infinite clones as variety, but the infinite clones not only have the vast advantage of number, but they are all individually vastly stronger than gear2&3 Luffy, as well as perfectly applicable both for offensive and defensive strategy

I'm not sure with the durability part though because Cracker has yet to be hit, but so far Cracker is looking better and depending on his position in the Big Mom pirates, all the yonko commanders can very well take this


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## Gohara (Sep 5, 2016)

"How is Jozu (WB's second mate) gonna lose against Doffy but Jack would win if he's in the same position on the Beasts Pirates?"

It's partially speculative, but I think that The Whitebeard Commanders are the weakest Yonkou Commanders, since we know that the Yonkou Crews are around the same level of power, and The Whitebeard Pirates are by far the biggest Yonkou Crew that we've seen so far.

Plus, we don't know if The Whitebeard Commanders that we've seen are the original Whitebeard Commanders.  So was Jozu originally the 2nd most powerful Whitebeard Commander?


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## Tenma (Sep 6, 2016)

Bogard said:


> Offensive power: Cracker, he could cut 1/3 of gear4 Luffy's arm with no name attack when Doflamingo had issues going through Base Luffy's defense with awakening attacks
> 
> Defense: Cracker, could block a barrage of kong gun attacks when gear4's raw strength was going through Doflamingo's strongest awakening attacks and sending him flying himself
> 
> ...



Doflamingo only had trouble avoiding or blocking G2/G3 attacks after Law fried his organs- that is highly conspicuous. He was treating Luffy like a toy prior and blitzing him with ease. Doflamingo still managed to blitz and land a direct hit on G4 in this weakened state without element of surprise, which is a better feat than Cracker's sneak attack.

Any advantages Cracker holds in the defense department are negated by the implication that he can't take a jot of pain while Doflamingo has shown ridiculous degrees of endurance and stamina.


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## Spirit King (Sep 6, 2016)

Tenma said:


> Doflamingo only had trouble avoiding or blocking G2/G3 attacks after Law fried his organs- that is highly conspicuous. He was treating Luffy like a toy prior and blitzing him with ease. Doflamingo still managed to blitz and land a direct hit on G4 in this weakened state without element of surprise, which is a better feat than Cracker's sneak attack.
> 
> Any advantages Cracker holds in the defense department are negated by the implication that he can't take a jot of pain while Doflamingo has shown ridiculous degrees of endurance and stamina.


Doesnt matter when he's he's constantly in armour and has an army of clones with better durability than donflamingo has with a speed and reactions to match. We also don't know what his durability even is, so it might not even be low. Magellan hadn't taken a hit for years and still kicked the ass of BB and Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Imagine (Sep 6, 2016)

Tenma said:


> Doflamingo only had trouble avoiding or blocking G2/G3 attacks after Law fried his organs- that is highly conspicuous. He was treating Luffy like a toy prior and blitzing him with ease. Doflamingo still managed to blitz and land a direct hit on G4 in this weakened state without element of surprise, which is a better feat than Cracker's sneak attack.
> 
> Any advantages Cracker holds in the defense department are negated by the implication that he can't take a jot of pain while Doflamingo has shown ridiculous degrees of endurance and stamina.


Doflamingo didn't blitz Luffy. You guys like to throw that word around far too much. 

Luffy flat out turned his head and looked at Dofla.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tenma (Sep 6, 2016)

Spirit King said:


> Doesnt matter when he's he's constantly in armour and has an army of clones with better durability than donflamingo has with a speed and reactions to match. We also don't know what his durability even is, so it might not even be low. Magellan hadn't taken a hit for years and still kicked the ass of BB and Luffy.



'Clones with better durability than DD' which get dismantled in 2 Kong Guns (both of which were blocked in some way) while it took KKG to finally put an already fucked-up DD down, right.  His durability may be high, but the fact he aopparently can't take pain at all means DD just has to touch him once, which won't be difficult considering his level of AoE. Magellan is a different case- he too, is good at avoiding hits but its never stated he had explicitly low endurance.



Imagine said:


> Doflamingo didn't blitz Luffy. You guys like to throw that word around far too much.
> 
> Luffy flat out turned his head and looked at Dofla.



Blitzed isn't the right term but he still managed to score a direct hit Luffy with raw speed alone without need for sneak attacks (like Cracker) or distraction. Cracker, even with Luffy occupied with his clones, still couldn't tag Luffy once he lost the benefit of surprise (Luffy not knowing there was a guy in the cracker suit), and we are comparing a fresh Cracker and an injured DD.


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## Imagine (Sep 6, 2016)

Tenma said:


> Blitzed isn't the right term but he still managed to score a direct hit Luffy with raw speed alone without need for sneak attacks (like Cracker) or distraction. Cracker, even with Luffy occupied with his clones, still couldn't tag Luffy once he lost the benefit of surprise (Luffy not knowing there was a guy in the cracker suit), and we are comparing a fresh Cracker and an injured DD.


Cracker had no problem reacting to and matching a charging G4 Luffy, and that was after he had got hit the first time. Doflamingo was just barely reacting to G4 Luffy. The least he could do was defend himself from him by putting up his guard or trying to slow him down with his awakened strings.

You  could drag out an argument with Dofla being weakened, but fact is, Cracker cut G4 Luffy and is having a much easier time dealing with G4 Luffy than Dofla did. Whether or not Dofla could do the same prior to Gamma Knife is all assumption.

Cracker has superior haki as well mentioned by Luffy and he dealt with G2/G3 Luffy better than Dofla dealt with Law or G2/G3 Luffy.

Doflamingo is not stronger than Cracker.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Amol (Sep 6, 2016)

Being hurt never stops characters in One Piece to fight with full potential.
Only thing that gets affected by injuries is endurance.
Whitebeard took down Akainu after he had lost his half face.
Luffy gave his best gatling gun in entire fight against Lucci when he was seconds away from losing consciousness.
Luffy gave his best performance against Crocodile after he was stabbed and poisoned.
Zoro who couldn't give so much as scratch to Mr.1 cut him down after getting blooded and on brink of death.
One Piece characters doesn't follow normal biology rules. As long as they are motivated they gives their all till the last breath regardless of injuries.
DD was comparatively in lot better condition than them.
So trying to equalize DD getting utterly dominated by G4 and Cracker keeping up with G4 while actually hurting him on the account of DD's injuries is just a lame excuse.
Truth couldn't be far from it.
Cracker did something that DD couldn't. DD just didn't have the DC to hurt G4 Luffy. 
It is a fact. Get over it already.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Tenma (Sep 6, 2016)

Amol said:


> Being hurt never stops characters in One Piece to fight with full potential.
> Only thing that gets affected by injuries is endurance.
> Whitebeard took down Akainu after he had lost his half face.
> Luffy gave his best gatling gun in entire fight against Lucci when he was seconds away from losing consciousness.
> ...



You are literally talking one or two attacks, not an extended fight. Whitebeard was not at 100% in Marineford, Oda deliberately weakened him. His attack against Akainu might have been at 100% but his general performance clearly wasn't for the entire arc. Using an attack delivered with all of Luffy's remaining might like the Lucci Gatling to say Doflamingo wasn't operating below 100% in his duel with G4 is retarded especially when Luffy explicitly pointed out he had been weakened. There's a reason Oda gave Whitebeard a heart attack and went out of his way to nerf him in Marineford, just like there was a reason Oda had Law fuck up Doflamingo's organs. 

Furthermore all 3 of your examples involved the characters using an emotional push or motivator to briefly exceed their performances for the rest of the arc, which DD obviously did not have. You need to stop sweeping stuff that doesn't fit your narrative under the carpet. It's awful convenient and easy to claim DD was at 100% in his Luffy's fight so we can directly compare his performance to Cracker but it is also blatantly not true.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Sep 6, 2016)

Tenma said:


> and we are comparing a fresh Cracker and an injured DD.



Yeah, but the Luffy Cracker fights atm is stronger than the one DD fought tho.


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## Tenma (Sep 6, 2016)

GrizzlyClaws said:


> Yeah, but the Luffy Cracker fights atm is stronger than the one DD fought tho.



I can agree with this. Granted, not a whole lot has happened between DR and WCI, but he should be slightly stronger.


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## Spirit King (Sep 6, 2016)

Tenma said:


> 'Clones with better durability than DD' which get dismantled in 2 Kong Guns (both of which were blocked in some way) while it took KKG to finally put an already fucked-up DD down, right.  His durability may be high, but the fact he aopparently can't take pain at all means DD just has to touch him once, which won't be difficult considering his level of AoE. Magellan is a different case- he too, is good at avoiding hits but its never stated he had explicitly low endurance.
> 
> 
> 
> Blitzed isn't the right term but he still managed to score a direct hit Luffy with raw speed alone without need for sneak attacks (like Cracker) or distraction. Cracker, even with Luffy occupied with his clones, still couldn't tag Luffy once he lost the benefit of surprise (Luffy not knowing there was a guy in the cracker suit), and we are comparing a fresh Cracker and an injured DD.


Show me a single hit DD took without being ragdolled. Whereas Crackers clones could actually take G4 gatling and progress (Gatling is one of Luffy's best attacks). Just because you survive so you can get ragdolled some more doesn't mean you have meaningful durability. Luffy only needed a KK gun to finish that fight DD wasn't doing shit to him awakening or not. Crackers clones can fight evenly with G4.


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## Tenma (Sep 6, 2016)

Spirit King said:


> Show me a single hit DD took without being ragdolled. Whereas Crackers clones could actually take G4 gatling and progressed (Gatling is one of Luffy's best attacks). Just because you survive so you can get ragdolled so more doesn't mean you have meaningful durability. Luffy only needed a KK gun to finish that fight DD wasn't doing shit to him awakening or not. Crackers clones can fight evenly ith G4.



Yeah, 5 clones blocking G4 Gatling at the same time. And they didn't even get hit, since they were blocking and distributing the overall attack between all 5 of them.

Again, DD just needs to hit Cracker _once _while Cracker's going to deliver a fuckton of G4 level punishment to put down DD. DD can literally turn the entire battlefield into strings, so he's going to have a much easier time bypassing the biscuit soldiers than Luffy.


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## zoro (Sep 6, 2016)

Can we wait a bit before we claim Cracker will go down in one hit? 

Especially when his haki is most likely good enough to protect him from Doffy's direct attacks anyway


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## Spirit King (Sep 6, 2016)

Tenma said:


> Yeah, 5 clones blocking G4 Gatling at the same time. And they didn't even get hit, since they were blocking and distributing the overall attack between all 5 of them.
> 
> Again, DD just needs to hit Cracker _once _while Cracker's going to deliver a fuckton of G4 level punishment to put down DD. DD can literally turn the entire battlefield into strings, so he's going to have a much easier time bypassing the biscuit soldiers than Luffy.


Clearly they did get hit and it's not like that changes anything. Gatling has always wasted bunch of shots in every use it's had unless it's a massive target Luffy rarely concentrates it on completely on one target. It's damage doesn't randomly drop now that it's actually hitting another target rather than air or a wall.

Your he only needs to hit cracker once is a massive assumption itself. Even when not clad in armour this guy has better haki and defense than Doffy does. Just because he doesn't like pain he should still be able to tank attacks better than Dofy can hope to should he wish, unless he faints at the sight of blood. We don't know his bare durability but to say one of Doffy's shitty attacks can OHKO him is a bit of stretch considering he'll be going down to a G4 attack anyway (something way beyond Doffy's DC capability and something Doffy himself went down to). 

If he goes down to a KK gun what exactly would your arguement be we don't even know if a fresh Doffy can survive such a attack.


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## Lord Stark (Sep 6, 2016)

Spirit King said:


> Show me a single hit DD took without being ragdolled. Whereas Crackers clones could actually take G4 gatling and progress (Gatling is one of Luffy's best attacks). Just because you survive so you can get ragdolled some more doesn't mean you have meaningful durability. Luffy only needed a KK gun to finish that fight DD wasn't doing shit to him awakening or not. Crackers clones can fight evenly with G4.



Well if you are comparing Doffy to Cracker's Clones its only fair to then compare Doflamingo w. awakening


In which case Doffy easily blocked Luffy's Double Culverin here.


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## Lawliet (Sep 6, 2016)

Doffy beats Jozu, Cracker and Jack individually.


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## Spirit King (Sep 6, 2016)

Lord Stark said:


> Well if you are comparing Doffy to Cracker's Clones its only fair to then compare Doflamingo w. awakening
> 
> 
> In which case Doffy easily blocked Luffy's Double Culverin here.


Culverine is like G4 Luffy's weakest attack as it it swaps power for maneuverablility but double is kinda impressive, though Luffy did break through it with a different attack. Organ should for all intents and purposes be a fair bit above tha level of attack.


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## savior2005 (Sep 6, 2016)

cracker has more strength, but doffy has more endurance. cracker will prolly be beaten in this burst of g4, wheras doffy survived g4 onslaught and could have killed luffy. i think if cracker loses, him vs doffy could go either way (leaning towards doffy very slightly).


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## Lord Stark (Sep 6, 2016)

Spirit King said:


> Culverine is like G4 Luffy's weakest attack as it it swaps power for maneuverablility but double is kinda impressive, though Luffy did break through it with a different attack. Organ should for all intents and purposes be a fair bit above tha level of attack.



I never argued that Culverin was superior to organ.  You asserted Doffy never took a single hit without being ragdolled.  I just wanted to input that point of information, as I think this pretty much proves that with Awakening Doffy can indeed block G4 attacks without being ragdolled.  

That being said, Luffy clearly wasn't using Culverin for its manuverability.  For all intents and purposes it should be roughly on par with a double Kong Gun.  Either way you slice it Doffy blocked his attack and also the fact that it took Luffy roughly 20 minutes to break through Doffy's awakening as per chapter 785's "20 minutes later" means he wasn't as outclassed by G4 post awakening as you are inferring.  

Frankly, 20 minutes against G4 while your organs are fucked up is impressive no matter how you slice it.


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## Turrin (Sep 7, 2016)

I think at this point the best case scenario for DD against any of these commanders is an extreme-diff win, worst case scenario some may be able to Mid/High-diff him.


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## Spirit King (Sep 7, 2016)

Lord Stark said:


> I never argued that Culverin was superior to organ.  You asserted Doffy never took a single hit without being ragdolled.  I just wanted to input that point of information, as I think this pretty much proves that with Awakening Doffy can indeed block G4 attacks without being ragdolled.
> 
> That being said, Luffy clearly wasn't using Culverin for its manuverability.  For all intents and purposes it should be roughly on par with a double Kong Gun.  Either way you slice it Doffy blocked his attack and also the fact that it took Luffy roughly 20 minutes to break through Doffy's awakening as per chapter 785's "20 minutes later" means he wasn't as outclassed by G4 post awakening as you are inferring.
> 
> Frankly, 20 minutes against G4 while your organs are fucked up is impressive no matter how you slice it.


No it shouldn't because kong gun is a close range attack it's not a long range attack. It being close range is the whole point, it's where the strength of the ability lies (rather than elastic potential energy converted to momentum, it's a contraction based impact attack that gets weaker the further away you are). That's why it' twin version counterpart is a leo bazooka. Donflamingo cannot handle kong gun attacks awakening on not. That's why after failing that attack Luffy used the head equivalent of a kong gun which broke through.

That fight was filled with PIS on Luffy's end either way. He would have defeated Donflamingo in the first bout if he didn't waste his time thinking he was dead and used a King Kong gun. gun.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Lord Stark (Sep 7, 2016)

Spirit King said:


> No it shouldn't because kong gun is a close range attack it's not a long range attack. It being close range is the whole point, it's where the strength of the ability lies (rather than elastic potential energy converted to momentum, it's a contraction based impact attack that gets weaker the further away you are). That's why it' twin version counterpart is a leo bazooka. Donflamingo cannot handle kong gun attacks awakening on not. That's why after failing that attack Luffy used the head equivalent of a kong gun which broke through.



Yes that's the point.  Are you reading the scan I posted?  Luffy used it like a Kong Gun, there was no extension there.  There was no stretching there.  And no its not Leo Bazooka is a palm strike, Kong Gun is a punch.  



> That fight was filled with PIS on Luffy's end either way. He would have defeated Donflamingo in the first bout if he didn't waste his time thinking he was dead and used a King Kong gun. gun.



Luffy could not have busted out King Kong Gun there, he was on the verge of transforming back.  King Kong Gun is confirmed to lower his time in G4 so there's frankly no way he would have been able to do that.   There's also frankly no proof Luffy would have been able to end it right there.  But I imagine King Kong Gun was out of the question at that time.  And really? PIS on the side of Luffy?  What about Doffy?


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## Yuki (Sep 7, 2016)

Lord Stark said:


> Yes that's the point.  Are you reading the scan I posted?  Luffy used it like a Kong Gun, there was no extension there.  There was no stretching there.  And no its not Leo Bazooka is a palm strike, Kong Gun is a punch.
> 
> 
> 
> Luffy could not have busted out King Kong Gun there, he was on the verge of transforming back.  King Kong Gun is confirmed to lower his time in G4 so there's frankly no way he would have been able to do that.   There's also frankly no proof Luffy would have been able to end it right there.  But I imagine King Kong Gun was out of the question at that time.  And really? PIS on the side of Luffy?  What about Doffy?



Please show us where it is confirmed that King Kong Gun reduces Luffy's time in G4.

And even if it did, please show us where it is confirmed that he cannot do it right at the end of G4's duration.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 7, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Please show us where it is confirmed that King Kong Gun reduces Luffy's time in G4.


When Luffy collapsed right after using it.


Juvia. said:


> And even if it did, please show us where it is confirmed that he cannot do it right at the end of G4's duration.


If Luffy could have done that then he should have finished off Doflamingo on the first go, instead, G4 ran out steam and Gatz had to carry Luffy away to safety.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 8, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> That's because he had already used G4 before and had only just recovered what he needed in order to use KKG. There is a reason he went right into the move instead of trying something else.
> 
> He was about too, Luffy even says all it takes is one more move, clearly he was thinking of KKG. But Luffy does not seem to possess an accurate time that he has left in G4, so just when he was about to do it *he got hit by the luck train* and it ran out.


Luffy ran out of Haki to use G4. That's not luck. If KKG didn't take a lot out of G4, then Luffy would have been using it no problem in his fight with Doflamingo. Yet for some reason, he chose to save it for the final blow, and then was put out of commission for several days.


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## Yuki (Sep 8, 2016)

Jigen said:


> Luffy ran out of Haki to use G4. That's not luck. If KKG didn't take a lot out of G4, then Luffy would have been using it no problem in his fight with Doflamingo. Yet for some reason, he chose to save it for the final blow, and then was put out of commission for several days.



Sorry to break it to you, but saving your best attack for last is just something that happens in manga.

Why is Luffy not using EGG at the start of every fight, why did Zoro not just oneshot Pica with Asura and get it out of the way and go help someone else. Ect ect.

Thinking things up to explain this kinda stuff will always just be wrong.


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## Lord Stark (Sep 8, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> A little more taxing on his body yes, but this does not mean it legit decreases the time he has in G4.



That's literally what more taxing means 

Am I being trolled right now? 



> See above.
> 
> It took Luffy days to recover all of his haki and energy after the DD fight, 10 minutes is not enough to refresh all the haki he had used up until that point. >_> It was just enough to get off one solid move.



Have you ever worked out before?  It takes me 48 hours for my muscles to actually recover from an intense work out.  But that doesn't mean 10 minutes of rest mid work out doesn't help get through another set.



> DD even says did Luffy really recover his haki, because to him it didn't seem like it, and that's right... because all Luffy recovered was enough to get off one more move.



1 more move that's far more taxing.  Rayleigh says G4 is too taxing on his body and Kong Gun isn't strong enough for every opponent.  Luffy says "Okay King Kong Gun". Rayleigh is like -_- 'bruh thats even more taxing'.  No shit if its more taxing its going to have an effect on how long he can maintain it


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 23, 2016)

Dof Vs Vista: Vista is have not good enough feat to take down Dof. So ım gonna say Dof.
Dof Vs Jozu: With high-diff Dof can take this.. Jozu is a tank but not invulnerable and Awakening is the solution.
Dof Vs Jack: With that feats ım gonna say Dof win this with ease
Dof Vs Cracker: Win this with  high diff. Doflamingo still has better feats.


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## SacredX (Sep 29, 2016)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, with recent chapters we can easily see Cracker isn't at Doflamingo's level just yet.




We need to see more of Jack, but I'm going to give Doflamingo the benefit of the doubt for now.

Vista and Jozu don't stand a chance against Doflamingo, I have no idea why they're even listed, troll tactics aside.  Marco would've been a better comparison.

~Added a spoiler tag for minor spoilers~


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## savior2005 (Sep 29, 2016)

its just like i said, cracker is doffy level at best. here is how a fight against luffy would go with doffy and cracker:
doffy vs luffy- doffy gets a beating from g4 but weathers to storm and then destroys luffy
cracker vs luffy- cracker, with his fruit, is capable of hurting luffy, with luffy being able to do the same. luffy has a chance to oneshot cracker. however, after g4 runs out, cracker is incapable of beating luffy.


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## Ekkologix (Sep 29, 2016)

Lets not forget Luffy still had alot of help to beat Doflamingo. I'd say Vista < Jozu <=Doffy < Cracker <= Jack.


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