# Prime Nagato vs Gokage



## ShadowSoul (Oct 21, 2015)

Location- War Arc Battlefield
Knowledge - Full for both
Distance- 100m
Mindset- Nagato is bloodlusted, Gokage is IC
Restrictions - Gedo


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2015)

This is done all the time.

The five kage take Nagato apart in my opinion. He's not on the level of true top tiers like Edo Madara is. He doesn't have enough defense to stop two kage from killing him while he attempts to fight three kage at once.


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## ShadowSoul (Oct 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> This is done all the time.
> 
> The five kage take Nagato apart in my opinion. He's not on the level of true top tiers like Edo Madara is. He doesn't have enough defense to stop two kage from killing him while he attempts to fight three kage at once.



Oh is it ? My mistake I did'nt know it just occurred to me and I thought it would be a good match up


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2015)

It's cool. It is a good match up, which is why it's done all the time.


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## t0xeus (Oct 21, 2015)

Gokage win, but give both sides just manga knowledge and Nagato wins.


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## LostSelf (Oct 21, 2015)

I actually think Nagato can kill them. You don't need to be Madara level to beat the Gokage when Madara's clones were proving to be too much for them (until they reunited).

But i don't think, of course, he can do so as easily. But if he manages to take out one with Shinra Tensei, Nagato's more than capable of defeating then, especially if this is Onoki, the most fragile.

An "easy" way to do so is ambushing them with the Chameleon and separate them or using a powerful enough ST that goes with killing intent. They can't sense the Chameleon if this one moves via flight, and that way they're hardly countering an ambush.

But there's 5 set of eyes here, so it's hard to say. I say CST is a good option too, if Nagato doesn't aim to the floor instead of hitting them.


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2015)

But they did reunite, and they got rid of the clones. Madara's Susano'o army would probably beat Nagato anyway.

There's full knowledge here. As soon as Nagato summons that thing, Raikage runs over and breaks it by punting it into some cliff. Nagato can stop him with Shinra Tensei, but that's when a sand hand emerges from the ground and puts Nagato's scrotum in a vice-grip while he's distracted. 

Nagato bends over in agony and gets rid of the hand, but Tsunade is suddenly on his ass. Nagato sees her coming with his shared vision, sticks out that giant saw thing with the Asura Realm, and instinctively stabs her. It does nothing, so he's forced to reflect her punch with Shinra Tensei. 

Out of nowhere, Ōnoki bear-hugs him and changes his weight to ten thousand tons. Nagato grabs Ōnoki (with the Asura Realm, because he can't move), and...his skull is collapsed by a v2 haymaker that he didn't see coming because Mei was going around melting the eyes of all of his summons.

Nagato stands no chance. His defense isn't good enough.


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## LostSelf (Oct 21, 2015)

They did reunite, because Madara allowed them. Tsunade, Mei and Gaara were defensless in front of their five set of clones before, in and after Onoki's speech.

Madara's Susano'o army has no way to beat Chibaku Tensei, nor bypass Preta Path.

And Ei's not likely running 100 meters before Nagato summons and goes invisible. And if he does, he will get there far faster than the other kages. And him going to fight Nagato alone spells death for him.

Gaara, Tsunade and Onoki won't cover the 100 meters along with Ei to avoid Nagato going invisible, levitating out some's reach, or busting CST when they don't expect it.


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## Mercurial (Oct 21, 2015)

Nagato stomps them, Preta Path barrier around just shits on all their offense with is chakra based. Quantity isn't going to defeat quality, you can put ten or fifteen Mei Terumi or Tsunade or even Onoki against Nagato and he would still win easily because he is much more powerful and has a perfect skillset to face them. That's how the Gokage would end. Their power isn't enough and they don't have hax.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 21, 2015)

Nagato drops these guys. Gakido's barrier voids all their ninjutsu. Once Ei is taken out, Nagato has a field day with the rest of them. Control some of them with chakra distruptor blades, camp inside the chameleon and set of an amped up ST at with no warnings, have Cerberus run wild, and anyone who comes in close gets soul hunted. Couple all that shit with very adept sensing and shared vision, and the Gokage get taxed completely.


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> And Ei's not likely running 100 meters before Nagato summons and goes invisible.



He's one of the fastest people to ever exist, and he's going to be on his way to Nagato as soon as this fight starts.

If Nagato summons that chameleon, A's going to see that, speed up, and punt it into the stratosphere before it goes anywhere.



LostSelf said:


> And if he does, he will get there far faster than the other kages. And him going to fight Nagato alone spells death for him.



He's not fighting alone just because the others are a few dozen meters away.

If Nagato is trying to keep A away from his lizard, his attention won't be on the giant hand coming out of the ground to smash his nutsack. Gaara doesn't need to be all that close to Nagato to try this.

While he's dealing with that, Tsunade attacks him, and while he deals with her, Ōnoki attacks him, and while he's dealing with him, A attacks him again, and he's probably dead by this point.


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## Bonly (Oct 21, 2015)

I usually don't rank characters based on they can and can not beat besides the "Top tier" characters imo upon which having a good 50/50 or being able to beat this group of Gokage more times then not is one of things I look at. I rank Nagato as top tier so you can pretty much guess who I think would come out on top but to make a long story short I'd say that Nagato would overwhelm them eventually since he's got a counter to pretty much everything they can do and what not but depending on how things play out it could go either way.


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## Ersa (Oct 21, 2015)

You don't need to be anywhere near the level of Edo Madara to beat the Gokage, weaker characters like War Arc Obito and Edo Minato can do it with minimal difficulty. At 100m, Nagato has more then enough time to setup Chameleon and then start isolating and picking them off with ST, summons and Asura nukes.

And quite frankly considering how dumb Raikage and Gaara are they might not figure out they need to blow up the CT core in time so Chibaku Tensei could be a game changer here.

It took KN8 to break out of a weakened Pain's CT and Nagato's version is of a higher level as Naruto pointed out. Not only that but Bijuudama, FRS and YM combined are way more firepower then the Gokage *can output in the same time frame.* So yeah I don't see it, the members of the Gokage aren't even a factor when compared to someone like Edo Itachi and Nagato is stronger. It's like Tsunade fighting five Chunin.


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## Mercurial (Oct 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He's one of the fastest people to ever exist, and he's going to be on his way to Nagato as soon as this fight starts.
> 
> If Nagato summons that chameleon, A's going to see that, speed up, and punt it into the stratosphere before it goes anywhere.
> 
> ...



Preta Path and Shinra Tensei, actually Preta Path alone, renders all of their attacks useless. Ei is boosted with Raiton Chakra Mode made of chakra around the body. Tsunade focuses chakra in her punches. Mei's ninjutsu are all made of chakra. Onoki's ninjutsu are all made of chakra. Gaara's sand isn't made of chakra but Shinra Tensei casually takes care of it.


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2015)

My scenario factored in Preta Path.


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## LostSelf (Oct 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He's one of the fastest people to ever exist, and he's going to be on his way to Nagato as soon as this fight starts.
> 
> If Nagato summons that chameleon, A's going to see that, speed up, and punt it into the stratosphere before it goes anywhere.



The thing is, nothing stops Nagato from returning Ei farther than 100 meters away with a powerful Shinra Tensei and badly injure him if not killing him.

Full knowledge doesn't only favor Ei.

In fact, what stops Nagato from eliminating Ei's shroud with Preta Path, restrain him like he did to Bee and soul rip his ass?



> He's not fighting alone just because the others are a few dozen meters away.



If he rushes to Nagato the very moment the match starts in V2, yes, he's going to be alone fighting Nagato because he will cross the 100 meters way, but way before the others. And doing so against Nagato is not the best behavior.

The speed between full speed Ei and the other Gokage is not few dozen meter away. Unless you mean he will be like 90 meters or more ahead of the others.



> If Nagato is trying to keep A away from his lizard, his attention won't be on the giant hand coming out of the ground to smash his nutsack. Gaara doesn't need to be all that close to Nagato to try this.
> 
> While he's dealing with that, Tsunade attacks him, and while he deals with her, Ōnoki attacks him, and while he's dealing with him, A attacks him again, and he's probably dead by this point.



And why can't Nagato shoot a powerful Shinra Tensei to clean the landscape and send flying Ei and Tsunade at the same time while keeping Preta Path on to troll Onoki? (Tsunade's speed is not enough to effectively force Nagato to only use Shinra Tensei to counter her. He can send Ei flying and dodge Tsunade levitating) It's not like the kages can tank every version of Shinra Tensei Nagato possesses.

And with full knowledge, expect Ei to be hit by one that he will never forget in his life. If he lives after.

Of course, that's assuming he rushes in, leaving the others behind.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 21, 2015)

The Gokage trashes Nagato.

 Nagato's not portrayed to be able to handle the Gokage and even the Gokage gave Madara trouble and forced him to use his Perfect Susano'o despite him having enhancements thanks to Hashi's DNA and the Rinnegan.


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## Matty (Oct 21, 2015)

Stop  Nagato dismantles them. CT ftw


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> You don't need to be anywhere near the level of Edo Madara to beat the Gokage, weaker characters like War Arc Obito and Edo Minato can do it with minimal difficulty.



They are Edo Madara's peers. All top tiers.



Ersatz said:


> And quite frankly considering how dumb Raikage and Gaara are.



Neither of them are close to dumb.



Ersatz said:


> Not only that but Bijuudama, FRS and YM combined are way more firepower then the Gokage *can output in the same time frame.*



Super Jinton [1] will erase Chibaku Tensei, but Nagato would probably be dead before it came to that.



Ersatz said:


> So yeah I don't see it, the members of the Gokage aren't even a factor when compared to someone like Edo Itachi and Nagato is stronger. It's like Tsunade fighting five Chunin.



What

Edo Itachi & Nagato are high-tiers. Tsunade is a mid-tier. That is a one tier gap, or in Nagato's case, maybe 1.5. That gap is *significantly* smaller than the one between Tsunade and Exams Neji. 

Top-tier: BM Naruto

High-tier: Itachi

Mid-tier: Tsunade

Low-tier: Kakuzu

Jōnin-tier: Asuma

Chūnin-tier: Jirōbō

Genin-tier: Exams Kiba

The low, mid, and high tiers are all pretty close together too.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 21, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> It's like Tsunade fighting five Chunin.



C'mon dude, Tsunade's much weaker than Nagato or Itachi, but Tsunade could literally flick Chūnin and win. Itachi would most definitely have to resort to Mangekyō Sharingan to beat Tsunade, which taxes at least 30% of his chakra.

The gap is more akin to Tsunade to an Elite Jōnin, such as Asuma. Wins the battle quite quickly, but not without effort.


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## Ersa (Oct 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They are Edo Madara's peers. All top tiers.


Still a gap between people like Madara and Obito even if generally they're on the same tier. The point is you don't need to near his level to defeat the Gokage.



> Neither of them are close to dumb.


But dumb perhaps but neither are they the brightest bulbs of the bunch.
*[1][2]*

Certainly neither of them will realize they can blow up the CT core. And I don't rate Mei that highly either. Perhaps Onoki or Tsunade can figure it out but not as fast as someone who is arguably the best on-the-fly thinker in the entire manga.



> Super Jinton [1] will erase Chibaku Tensei, but Nagato would probably be dead before it came to that.


Between the charge up time for Super Jinton and the Kages taking time to figure out the core weakness I think Nagato can amass a CT strong enough to survive it. It was implied Pain could create something to contain even KN9.



> What
> 
> Edo Itachi & Nagato are high-tiers. Tsunade is a mid-tier. That is a one tier gap, or in Nagato's case, maybe 1.5. That gap is *significantly* smaller than the one between Tsunade and Exams Neji.
> 
> ...


Works differently for me, I rate people like Killer B and sick Itachi a tier above Tsunade and likewise I rate Minato/Nagato a tier above sick Itachi. The gap is simply too big for them to be considered on the same general "level".

So perhaps I exaggerated but the gap between someone like Mei and Nagato or Edo Itachi is uh, very, very substantial. Together they make this hard for Nagato but I don't see him losing.


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## ARGUS (Oct 22, 2015)

100m starting distance, full knowledge and bloodlusted Nagato? 
Nagato should win this 

The only thing that gets him is the lightened Ay combo but with full Intel he gains distance from summons till he rips apart each gokage one by one


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Still a gap between people like Madara and Obito even if generally they're on the same tier.



Not in my opinion. EMS Sasuke though Edo Madara is the top tier. Rinnegan Obito's in the middle somewhere.

Nagato would get stomped into the ground by EMS Sasuke. He's not on that tier.



Ersatz said:


> But dumb perhaps but neither are they the brightest bulbs of the bunch.
> *[1][2]*



A was aware the fire was bad. That would be why he initially evaded it. He just stopped caring because his emotions were starting to get out of control. He's rash, not slow. 

No clue what the Gaara scan is about. 



Ersatz said:


> Between the charge up time for Super Jinton and the Kages taking time to figure out the core weakness I think Nagato can amass a CT strong enough to survive it.



Full knowledge.

They'd blow up the core as soon as they saw Nagato make it (I still doubt he'd even get this far).



Ersatz said:


> Works differently for me, I rate people like Killer B and sick Itachi a tier above Tsunade and likewise I rate Minato/Nagato a tier above sick Itachi. The gap is simply too big for them to be considered on the same general "level".



B is a high tier _easily._

Sick Itachi is still Itachi, a high tier. He still has all of his high tier abilities. He has the potential to end fights quickly, so I don't see a reason to drop him down in a tier list. Sick Itachi's fights are just more circumstantial than normal/Edo Itachi's.

Tsunade is a mid tier, like the other Sannin are.

Nagato is comfortably above any of the five Kage (far above Mei & indoors Gaara, who are low tiers imo), but one high tier does not beat four mid tiers and a low tier. That is my take.


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## ARGUS (Oct 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> This is done all the time.
> 
> The five kage take Nagato apart in my opinion. He's not on the level of true top tiers like Edo Madara is. He doesn't have enough defense to stop two kage from killing him while he attempts to fight three kage at once.



Since when was being at edo Madara level the criteria to beat the gokage? 
Last time I checked, he humuliated them

Just look at EMS sasuke, KCSM/BM Naruto and KCM Minato 

They are nowhere near Edo Madara yet they can beat the gokage, comfortably I might add


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 22, 2015)

bare characters would fuck up the gokage

you don't have to be edo madara level to do it

nine-tails chakra mode naruto makes four clones and promptly fucks up all five of them no sweat


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Just look at EMS sasuke, KCSM/BM Naruto and KCM Minato



All Madara level guys.



ATastyMuffin said:


> nine-tails chakra mode naruto makes four clones and promptly fucks up all five of them no sweat



I don't believe in the hype anymore. Datclone was an anomaly. Every other clone KCM made got popped in one go like any other clone. KCM Naruto is not beating five kage at one time.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 22, 2015)

Who popped where in one go?

When was a Nine-Tails Chakra Mode clone ever seen on-panel being defeated?

idek what you mean by one go, as in, one attack? By who?


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2015)

Obito paneled one with a Gunbai. I'll look for the scan if you force me, but I assure you it happened. 

Also, Datclone is the only clone that did anything iirc. Didn't the others fail to stop the likes of Kimimaro & Zetsu?


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 22, 2015)

Oh yeah I recall that, but none of the Kages bar Raikage are touching a Nine-Tails Chakra Mode clone so ?\_(ツ)_/?

Zetsu tripped a clone. Wouldn't call that having failed, because that was literally one instant where the clone was outplayed lol

We don't see if the clone isn't there or not when Kimimaro disappears

Not that it would matter, because to suggest Kimimaro, a Jōnin-level shinobi at best, is > Nine-Tails Chakra Mode would hilariously disingenuous


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 22, 2015)

Nagato wrecks, with utter ease, this beyond a stomp truly.

Nothing the Gokage can do can stop a bloodlusted Nagato, it took took 2 Jinchuriki and another ET Uchiha to put him down. You'd have to restrict all aspects of Deva Realm in order for this to be a fair fight.

By Prime, I assume he has mobility (even if he doesn't, it really doesn't make a difference in the outcome).


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2015)

My point is that clones are fodder. And they are fodder.

Do you remember when each of the five kage, who range from mid to low tier, held their own against five Susano'o-Madaras each? It's because they were clones.

How about when Madara sat on his ass and stabbed Hashirama wood clones while bitching to the real one? Is that because Madara >x50 Hashirama? 

Clones stink.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 22, 2015)

that's cuz they're wood clones fam

shadow clones have been stated to be equal to the original since time

why do you think dat clone seemed so powerful

It's because he was given the most panel-time

I mean when u look at it, we didn't see any other clone fighting except for brief snippets


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## FlamingRain (Oct 22, 2015)

It's stated that the shadow clone technique divides Chakra evenly, not that they're equal to the original.

We wouldn't have gotten Tobirama's "it's too slow with the clones" comment if they were equal to the original.


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2015)

I also think wood & shadow clones work the same way.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 22, 2015)

Each type of clone has a unique property to it, I mean Kakashi's RKB had the ability to stun/paralyze a person. Itachi's clones were used to conserve chakra...most of these unique clones probably have a special skill set associated with it.


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## ARGUS (Oct 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> All Madara level guys.


Lol No  theyre not, 
KCM Minato or Naruto dont stand a chance against a single stroke of PS,
thhey get bisected within a second,hes on a whole other level 
they also dont have a counter for CST, (inb4 ''he cant use it'') 

as for EMS sasuke, well he is nowhere near his level either, 
when you compare theiir PS, madaras PS is on a whole other level so that results in sasuke getting shit stomped 

and outside of PS, theres practically nothing that sasuke could do to madara when preta alone shits on his entire arsenal 


so NO, they are not madara level guys,


> I don't believe in the hype anymore. Datclone was an anomaly. Every other clone KCM made got popped in one go like any other clone. KCM Naruto is not beating five kage at one time.



If you dont believe  in hype anymore then ill bring out feats. 

please tell me, can any of the gokage bar Ay even react to KCM narutos speed? 
can gaaras defense even tank a single FRS? 
what is mei even gonna do? when her attackks are just dodged till she gets blitzed and finished 
what is tsundae doing? she gets diced by an FRS
what the hell can Onoki do? same as  Mei 
what the hell can Ay do against faster and multiple opponents? 


the whole kage level argument isnt cutting it, when KCM naruto is a good 2-3 tiers above every gokage individuallly. 
They get defeated, possibly mid diffd


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## Ersa (Oct 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Not in my opinion. EMS Sasuke though Edo Madara is the top tier. Rinnegan Obito's in the middle somewhere.


I agree but that doesn't contradict what I said. Namely that Obito is a fair bit weaker then guys like Madara/Hashirama and he effortlessly stomps the Gokage. The point is, you don't need to be anywhere near Madara's level to beat (not stomp) the Gokage.



> Nagato would get stomped into the ground by EMS Sasuke. He's not on that tier.


Let's be real, he'd put up a fair fight. Sasuke's PS until his Rikudo power-up was not as impressive as Madara's. Sasuke wins but it's still tough.



> A was aware the fire was bad. That would be why he initially evaded it. He just stopped caring because his emotions were starting to get out of control. He's rash, not slow.
> 
> No clue what the Gaara scan is about.


Emotionally unstable and rash is a far cry from being smart. He doesn't have any good intelligence feats anyway.

Let's tell everyone to look into the most powerful Uchiha's eyes!




> Full knowledge.
> 
> They'd blow up the core as soon as they saw Nagato make it (I still doubt he'd even get this far).


Hm that is true.

CT is off the table then. Charmeleon and picking them off is still valid though.



> B is a high tier _easily._


He gets rolled by Nagato, Edo Itachi and Minato so I'd say not, even though he's leagues ahead of your average Kage.



> Sick Itachi is still Itachi, a high tier. He still has all of his high tier abilities. He has the potential to end fights quickly, so I don't see a reason to drop him down in a tier list. Sick Itachi's fights are just more circumstantial than normal/Edo Itachi's.


Sick Itachi is much more hesitant with his arsenal which can cost him, he puts up a fight against the likes of his zombie counterpart and Minato for example but he'll never ever win.



> Tsunade is a mid tier, like the other Sannin are.


No problem with this.



> Nagato is comfortably above any of the five Kage (far above Mei & indoors Gaara, who are low tiers imo), but one high tier does not beat four mid tiers and a low tier. That is my take.


Nagato is at the divide between top and high tier so him being stronger then four mid tiers and one low tier is fairly reasonable at least to me. This guy was only taken down by 3 high tiers (KCM Naruto although weakened was still stated to be stronger then Pain Arc SM Naruto).

Three high tiers are massively ahead of four mid/one low.


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> The point is, you don't need to be anywhere near Madara's level to beat (not stomp) the Gokage.



Rinnegan Obito is very close to Madara, even if he isn't _quite_ there. Nagato is nowhere near Edo Madara, nor is he anywhere near Rinnegan Obito with six bijū.



Ersatz said:


> Sasuke's PS until his Rikudo power-up was not as impressive as Madara's.



I have never believed there to be a difference.



Ersatz said:


> Emotionally unstable and rash is a far cry from being smart.



Sasuke is very smart, but was rash at times because of his emotions, which resulted in poor decision making. It happens. 

A seemed like a pretty normal kage in regards to intellect. A stupid person would have been lost against Minato's Hiraishin, for example. 




Ersatz said:


> Charmeleon and picking them off is still valid though.



A kills that thing when Nagato summons it.



Ersatz said:


> He gets rolled by Nagato, Edo Itachi and Minato so I'd say not, even though he's leagues ahead of your average Kage.



Minato wouldn't roll him, and the other two match up well. B also rolls every mid tier, and some high tiers like Kabuto, so I put him in the high tier. 



Ersatz said:


> Sick Itachi is much more hesitant with his arsenal which can cost him, he puts up a fight against the likes of his zombie counterpart and Minato for example but he'll never ever win.



Those are other high tiers though. Sick Itachi probably wins against every single mid tier under manga knowledge. 

MS Spam isn't what makes Itachi high tier imo. 



Ersatz said:


> This guy was only taken down by 3 high tiers (KCM Naruto although weakened was still stated to be stronger then Pain Arc SM Naruto).



He got raped. 

While he was burning to death, Itachi could've stabbed him with the Totsuka Sword, but plot gonna plot.

While he was fighting base B and a clone-less Naruto, Itachi could've stabbed him there with the Totsuka sword, but plot gonna plot. 

We needed more drama, so they had to blow up his best jutsu first and _then_ stab him.


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## LostSelf (Oct 22, 2015)

How do you know Itachi wasn't regenerating from being hit by ST and he only managed to save his comrades when he did?

And why do we use Itachi hitting Nagato with Amaterasu, when Nagato was not Itachi's enemy, wasn't mentally controlled at the time, and showed us he could've counter attacked Itachi way before that happened if he wanted, but had no reason to believe the crow broke Itachi out of Edo Tensei?

Naruto's also hit by Sakura almost all the times. But he never expects it, considering she's his friend. Go tell Sakura to do it in a straight fight.

That's some bad downplaying right there.


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## Ersa (Oct 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Rinnegan Obito is very close to Madara, even if he isn't _quite_ there. Nagato is nowhere near Edo Madara, nor is he anywhere near Rinnegan Obito with six bijū.


Obito is generally weaker then War Arc Naruto whom I consider slightly inferior to Edo Madara and Hashirama. I'd suggest the gap between Madara/Obito is similar to the gap between Obito/Nagato. 



> I have never believed there to be a difference.


Sasuke's PS lacks the feats and at that point in time Tobirama noted Madara >> Sasuke. Scaling his PS to Madara's doesn't work at that point in time.



> Sasuke is very smart, but was rash at times because of his emotions, which resulted in poor decision making. It happens.


Sasuke is a far cry from his brother. 



> A seemed like a pretty normal kage in regards to intellect. A stupid person would have been lost against Minato's Hiraishin, for example.


Normal Kage intellect who is overly rash. Point being he will never, ever figure out CT.



> A kills that thing when Nagato summons it.


Doubtful from 100m.




> Minato wouldn't roll him, and the other two match up well. B also rolls every mid tier, and some high tiers like Kabuto, so I put him in the high tier.


Minato would in all honesty considering how A&B vs. Jounin Minato played out. B doesn't roll over Kisame and he honestly loses to Pain Arc SM Naruto and sickly Itachi whom I have a step below Nagato and Minato. He's in a weird place, far stronger then any mid tier but not strong enough to be a high tier. I suppose I can concede he could be with the Minato/EItachi/Nagato group but he definitely doesn't pose a threat to any of them.



> Those are other high tiers though. Sick Itachi probably wins against every single mid tier under manga knowledge.
> 
> MS Spam isn't what makes Itachi high tier imo.


Hm, I can go with sick Itachi being in high tier but classifying him in the same tier as people who generally win quite handily against him is a bit iffy. Sure, he poses a threat but his sickness and stamina issues can be exploited.

Edo Itachi is essentially a smarter EMS Sasuke without PS. I feel that gives him an enormous edge over his sick counterpart, arguably removing his biggest weakness, terminal illness and offering regeneration. Plus free reign on Karasu Bunshin or Kage Bunshin. Stylistically that gives him a higher ranking in my book because Edo Itachi can better handle people like Minato, Six Paths of Pain and KCM Naruto while sickly Itachi honestly gets murdered.




> He got raped.
> 
> While he was burning to death, Itachi could've stabbed him with the Totsuka Sword, but plot gonna plot.
> 
> ...


And Madara could've wiped the Gokage off the map from the getgo but plot gonna plot.

It still required the three of them by manga portrayal. And honestly for me gimped Naruto and B working together...is honestly pretty damn close to the Gokage in power. And Nagato moped the floor with the duo. The Gokage is superior to them two no doubt but how much? Gimped KCM Naruto is superior to SM Naruto who is a notch ahead of Tsunade as the Pain arc showed.


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I'd suggest the gap between Madara/Obito is similar to the gap between Obito/Nagato.



Madara would need an extreme level of difficulty to get past Kamui & six bijū, yet Obito doesn't even need the bijū to beat Nagato. You are underestimating Obito, or maybe overestimating Madara.



Ersatz said:


> Normal Kage intellect who is overly rash. Point being he will never, ever figure out CT.



He isn't emotional here. Nagato didn't "kill" B. Even if there wasn't full knowledge, Chibaku Tensei is easy to figure out. Target the thing pulling you in. 



Ersatz said:


> Doubtful from 100m.



I hear Raikage is pretty fast.



Ersatz said:


> I suppose I can concede B could be with the Minato/EItachi/Nagato group but he definitely doesn't pose a threat to any of them.



If you are a casual mountain buster, you are a threat to those three. They just happen to have counters to Bijū Mode. Match ups are real. Minato may lose to Sage Kabuto (another high tier) because his offense is completely reliant on speed, but B can just nuke Kabuto with Continuous Bijūdama.



Ersatz said:


> And Madara could've wiped the Gokage off the map from the getgo but plot gonna plot.



This is why I still say Madara raped the five kage.



Ersatz said:


> gimped Naruto and B working together...is honestly pretty damn close to the Gokage in power. And Nagato moped the floor with the duo. .



Gimped Naruto & B without Bijū Mode would struggle with A & Tsunade alone. 

You need to keep things in perspective. What we saw was not Nagato shutting down the best B & KCM Naruto had to offer. We saw Nagato best a clone-less Naruto, who was inexplicably stripped of his speed & intelligence, and base B without proper knowledge, who thought an _ambush_ would work on Nagato.

The five kage will have none of those problems. None of the high tiers are complete enough to favorably match up against five different mid tiers. That is exclusive to top tiers, who all have offense _and_ defense sitting at mountain level or higher.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 22, 2015)

Just realized Nagato is bloodlusted…

One CST ends the match.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 22, 2015)

Blood lusted Nagato with a 100m starting distance? 

Bloodlust Nagato IC summons Gedo Mazo and at that moment the fight goes downhill for the Gokage

Even with mutual full knowledge at that distance the Gokage get fodder stomped into oblivion under these conditions


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## Ghoztly (Oct 22, 2015)

Literally took an FRS, Bijudama, and Yasaka Magatama to destroy that core. The Gokage have nothing of that level. Jinton you could argue potentially (doubt it.), but he would never get it off. 

Nagato erases all of them.


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> Bloodlust Nagato IC summons Gedo Mazo



Restricted.



Ghoztly said:


> but he would never get it off.



Why not.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> But they did reunite, and they got rid of the clones. Madara's Susano'o army would probably beat Nagato anyway.



CST, CT or Gedo Mazo could all individually lol solo the _Sasuno'o_ army



Rocky said:


> There's full knowledge here. As soon as Nagato summons that thing, Raikage runs over and breaks it by punting it into some cliff. Nagato can stop him with Shinra Tensei, but that's when a sand hand emerges from the ground and puts Nagato's scrotum in a vice-grip while he's distracted.



Nagato ST's the Raikage and fodders Garra's sand with _Fujutsu Kuyin_

Nagato getting distracted? He single handedly invade Konoha and fought hundreds of ninja with almost zero error. He's not being _blindsided/distracted_ at any single point in time during a fight with 5 people 



Rocky said:


> Nagato bends over in agony and gets rid of the hand, but Tsunade is suddenly on his ass. Nagato sees her coming with his shared vision, sticks out that giant saw thing with the Asura Realm, and instinctively stabs her. It does nothing, so he's forced to reflect her punch with Shinra Tensei.



The sand is a none factor again due to _Fujutsu Kuyin_ and with full knowledge Nagato is going to ram a chakra rod or two through her so she drops like a rock due to her proximity to him. If it can stop Naruto or SM Jiraiya, Tsunade fairs no better 

Lets just say for _arguments sake_ your right and that doesn't stop her and he ST's her to the moon



Rocky said:


> Out of nowhere, Ōnoki bear-hugs him and changes his weight to ten thousand tons. Nagato grabs Ōnoki (with the Asura Realm, because he can't move), and...his skull is collapsed by a v2 haymaker that he didn't see coming because Mei was going around melting the eyes of all of his summons.



Onoki bear hugs him and would get his entire chakra reserves drained within seconds. Nagato would simply _keep Fujutsu Kuyin_ active 24/7. No we have a Ei & Tsuande who are god knows where due to being launched several hundred meters, an Onoki who has no chakra and zero support from Gaara & Mei who are being chased by god knows how many summons. 

Assuming Ei recovers in time, Nagato senses Ei approaching, puts up _Fujutsu Kuyin_ again and gives him the Killer B treatment. Tsuande is still making her way back and Onoki & Ei are about to die via Shurado powers.

Assuming Tsunade does make it back, she gets her ass ST again into the horizon, while Nagato turns team backup into raisins for the sake of chakra concerns



Rocky said:


> Nagato stands no chance. His defense isn't good enough.



His defense is completely adequate. The Kages _HAVE_ to engage him in CqC something only Tsuande has the power to pose a threat in. Fujitsu Kuyin kills any chance of the kages providing an opening as Gaara can't rely on his sand and if Ei decides to risk his own CqC attempt he gets completely foddered like his brother




Again this is all under the assumption that a bloodlusted Nagato doesn't just nuke them from the jump to save himself the risk and effort


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## Joakim3 (Oct 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Restricted.



The fact that people feel the need to restrict Nagato against the Gokage should show you his standing relative to them



Rocky said:


> Why not.



Because Nagato has full knowledge and would target Tsunade & Onoki first, something the Kages have zero ways of preventing?


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> Nagato ST's the Raikage and fodders Garra's sand with _Fujutsu Kuyin_



That's where Tsunade comes in.



DaVizWiz said:


> Nagato getting distracted? He single handedly invade Konoha and fought hundreds of ninja with almost zero error.



He literally lost a path to Konahamaru. 



Joakim3 said:


> Onoki bear hugs him and would get his entire chakra reserves drained within seconds. Nagato would simply _keep Fujutsu Kuyin_ active 24/7.



Okay, then they trade techniques. 



Joakim3 said:


> Nagato senses Ei, and seeing he'd still have _Fujutsu Kuyin_ up his haymaker would do nothing.



Sensory types do not passively sense iirc. They can't respond to blindside attacks all that well either way. [1]

Preta Path can't absorb base A's strength, and he'd still be accelerating towards Nagato's head at v2 speeds, so Nagato's going to die regardless.



Joakim3 said:


> Because Nagato has full knowledge and would target Tsunade & Onoki first, something the Kages have zero ways of preventing?



Nagato won't be killing any of them because he's going to get overwhelmed.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 22, 2015)

Which is why I said nearly zero error. 

Konomhamaru managed to do what an entire army of shinobi could not- distract an individual path to surprise attack them. 

Kudos to the fan service king Kishimoto for allowing the child friend of Naruto to not be murdered.

To date, Neji is the only friend Naruto lost after multiple attacks on Konoha & an entire war.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That's where Tsunade comes in.



To which _Bansho Tenin_ and Shurado powers can deal with her, even in the worst of worst case and She somehow manages to make contact, so long as it's not a head shot Nagato is _plenty_ durable enough to eat a punch or two



Rocky said:


> He literally lost a path to Konahamaru.



K/O for several minutes due to a _Kage Bunshin_ feint with zero knowledge on the opponent. It was still functioning when CST was used

..and again, how many other people where the Paths fighting at that particular time. Tendo, Ningendo, Shurado, Gakido & Chikushodo were all engaging multiple individual battles against multiple people simultaneously  

Baring _Kage: Bunshin_ users and Sasori, no one does multi-tasking better than Nagato



Rocky said:


> Okay, then they trade techniques.



Which helps in what way? Ei & Onoki get boned by either _Shurado_ or _Fujutu Kuyin_. Neither have any way of circumnavigating the techniques?



Rocky said:


> Sensory types do not passively sense iirc. They can't respond to blindside attacks all that well either way. [1]



Except that Nagato has shared vision in the form of himself (via Shurado powers) or the 8+ Summons he can bring out. Something Mei *cannot* handle by herself



Rocky said:


> Preta Path can't absorb base A's strength, and he'd still be accelerating towards Nagato's head at v2 speeds, so Nagato's going to die regardless.



Ei would be dropping at the same speed Killer B did?. He can't accelerate himself in the air if he's doing an ariel haymaker? Second an emaciated Nagato flat out tanked Killer B's V2 Lariat (something that is *substantially* more powerful than a V2 strike). 

Nagato is a walking tank. Sure he's not Tsuande or Raikagenaut lvl but he is fully capable of taking a significant beating


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2015)

Oops     .


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> To which _Bansho Tenin_ and Shurado powers can deal with her, even in the worst of worst case and She somehow manages to make contact, so long as it's not a head shot Nagato is _plenty_ durable enough to eat a punch or two



My scenario accounts for Nagato dealing with Tsunade by using Shuradō. I wouldn't see him eating her punch though. 



Joakim3 said:


> K/O for several minutes due to a _Kage Bunshin_ feint with zero knowledge on the opponent.


 
Proving that he can be caught off guard. I just wanted to put that silly argument to bed. Nagato needs his shared vision to cover his blind spots. 



Joakim3 said:


> Which helps in what way?



Well, he wouldn't be able to move.



Joakim3 said:


> the 8+ Summons he can bring out. Something Mei *cannot*



She could probably handle whatever he managed to summon (if anything at all) before A is there and my scenario begins. 



Joakim3 said:


> Ei would be dropping at the same speed Killer B did?. He can't accelerate himself in the air if he's doing an ariel haymaker? Second an emaciated Nagato flat out tanked Killer B's V2 Lariat (something that is *substantially* more powerful than a V2 strike).



B was in midair when he turned around and tried a half-assed Lariat with barley any momentum. A would be pushing off the ground in my scenario and moving at v2 speeds right towards Nagato's face. 

Hell, Nagato probably isn't even capable of reacting in time.


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## ShadowSoul (Oct 22, 2015)

Do you guys think restricting gedo was fair? I was just trying to make this as even more or less as I could.


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## t0xeus (Oct 22, 2015)

ShadowSoul said:


> Do you guys think restricting gedo was fair? I was just trying to make this as even more or less as I could.



No, it's fine, with GM not restricted Nagato would stomp and Gokage would have no chance whatsoever.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> My scenario accounts for Nagato dealing with Tsunade by using Shuradō. I wouldn't see him eating her punch though.



Which is fine, you act like Shurado cant deal with multiple multiple people at once? 

Killer B was restrained by _one_ arm... _one_. Shurado can generate 3 additional ones. If _any_ Kage is grabbed by Nagato (Tsunade included) they are _as good as dead_



Rocky said:


> Proving that he can be caught off guard. I just wanted to put that silly argument to bed. Nagato needs his shared vision to cover his blind spots.



And look at the pure amount of mayhem that Nagato was addressing for such event to happen?

Shared vision just brings that down to zero (something he can physically manifest on his person), and again even without it Nagato has sensing to fall back on



Rocky said:


> Well, he wouldn't be able to move.



Gingers fighting style doesn't even require movement, second I'd imagine the effects wear off or would be negated the second Onoki's own chakra started to be fucked with. _Doton: Chōkajūgan no Jutsu_ would best be used for the summons to allow Mei to support?



Rocky said:


> She could probably handle whatever he managed to summon (if anything at all) before A is there and my scenario begins.



I'd _love_ to see her deal with an the Bird summon that was fast enough to pressure SM Naruto in speed as well as multiple Cerberus (that she can't kill) gunning for her from multiple direections 

Again Nagato can hit them all before Ei can reach him. Nagato has something called AoE, that same thing of which the Kage a painfully lacking, your constantly under the assumption he can and will only attack one person at a time, when he has canonically done the opposite to give himself and advantage

There is nada preventing Nagato from spam nuking them with a boss sized _Shinra Tensei_ from the jump, hopping in the Chameleon and playing the deadliest game of hide and seek... Completely trolling your entire scenario.



Rocky said:


> B was in midair when he turned around and tried a half-assed Lariat with barley any momentum. A would be pushing off the ground in my scenario and moving at v2 speeds right towards Nagato's face.



Killer B definitely put his hand on the ground to stop his moment and then pushed off the ground (as you can see Nagato landing in front of him)

V2 Killer B would easily be tier above Ei in strength, consider base B can edge out V1 Ei in a Lariat strength math. Hell V1 Killer B nuked the _entire Unraikyo platform_ him & Hebi were fighting on... off the map.... from a distance of _hundreds_ of meters

Nagato can eat anything Ei alone can dish out. The only physical threat he has to work about is a Onoki+Ei back combo or Tsunade getting a direct clean shot it



Rocky said:


> Hell, Nagato probably isn't even capable of reacting in time.



He can react to hypersonic FRS's while exhausted, chakra depleted and through a medium. He'd be just fine against Ei concedering he can sense chakra buildup as well.


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2015)

We disagree too much. I know you're the ultimate Nagato fan, so it's cool. There is one point I'll address though. 



			
				Joakim said:
			
		

> He can react to hypersonic FRS's while exhausted, chakra depleted and through a medium. He'd be just fine against Ei concedering he can sense chakra buildup as well



A is far faster than Rasenshuriken, and has come quite close to tearing the heads off of speedsters twice now. I'm not going to grant Nagato the ability to do _anything_ in response to the v2 Shunshin when the Yellow Flash barely had time to flash, especially if he's forced to rely on sensing.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 22, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> Which is fine, you act like Shurado cant deal with multiple multiple people at once?
> 
> Killer B was restrained by _one_ arm... _one_. Shurado can generate 3 additional ones. If _any_ Kage is grabbed by Nagato (Tsunade included) they are _as good as dead_



 V2 Ei has the required speed and power to chop through it if Nagato's forced to rely on sensing. Likewise, Onoki can just increase Nagato's weight and that hinders him quite a bit.





> And look at the pure amount of mayhem that Nagato was addressing for such event to happen?
> 
> Shared vision just brings that down to zero (something he can physically manifest on his person), and again even without it Nagato has sensing to fall back on



 Your initial point is each of the Path's ability to handle multiple individuals individually. However, that's not really true, esp. when we consider the fact that the Kages actually have knowledge on his moveset, combined with the fact that the strongest Path, Deva Path, could barely handle Kakashi, Choji, and Choza even with Asura Path present. That, along with the fact that the Gokage held their own against Madara's Susano'o clones and forced him to use his PS despite having a superior usage with his Rinnegan in comparison to Nagato makes it seem silly for Nagato to be able to handle the Gokage IMO. Only way he wins is with Gedo Mazo which is restricted.



> I'd _love_ to see her deal with an the Bird summon that was fast enough to pressure SM Naruto in speed as well as multiple Cerberus (that she can't kill) gunning for her from multiple direections



 Onoki alone is well equipped to handling it based on the fact that he managed to block Madara's Susano'o's Clones blades and managed to weigh them down. 



> Again Nagato can hit them all before Ei can reach him. Nagato has something called AoE, that same thing of which the Kage a painfully lacking, your constantly under the assumption he can and will only attack one person at a time, when he has canonically done the opposite to give himself and advantage



 Mass Jinton, Massive Suiton, and Sand Tsunami's hardly qualifies as being unequipped an AoE. The only time Nagato managed to gain the upperhand using the tactic you described was when Kabuto used a moment where Naruto, Bee, and Itachi were distracted and thus, shot them with an S/T when they weren't expecting it. Because of this, Nagato managed to grab Bee who's completely oblivious to the Rinnegan's abililties and thus, gained the upperhand.

 This isn't applicable here. The Gokage already demonstrated they were aware of the Rinnegan's abilities and devised counters around it as such when they used the Mist along with Onoki's + Ei's blitz attacks to add in pressure when Madara's Increased Field of Vision was countered, likewise, they also countered Preta Path which is deemed to be one of the most beneficial abilities Nagato has, yet they managed to counter Preta Path on a user with superior Chakra and Dojutsu.



> There is nada preventing Nagato from spam nuking them with a boss sized _Shinra Tensei_ from the jump, hopping in the Chameleon and playing the deadliest game of hide and seek... Completely trolling your entire scenario.



 That never happened in the manga. If Nagato was truly capable of doing so, Kabuto would've done so instead of using a Chibaku Tensei and admitting defeat after his Shared Vision and Chibaku Tensei, the former which can be countered by Mei's HIdden Mist and the latter with Jinton. Once Chibaku Tensei and his Shared Vision is countered, there's not much Nagato can do and that was literally shown in the manga.





> Killer B definitely put his hand on the ground to stop his moment and then pushed off the ground (as you can see Nagato landing in front of him)
> 
> V2 Killer B would easily be tier above Ei in strength, consider base B can edge out V1 Ei in a Lariat strength math. Hell V1 Killer B nuked the _entire Unraikyo platform_ him & Hebi were fighting on... off the map.... from a distance of _hundreds_ of meters



 True, though Nagato's Edo Tensei body resists pain and he did manage to use Preta Path fairly early which reduced his momentum.



> Nagato can eat anything Ei alone can dish out. The only physical threat he has to work about is a Onoki+Ei back combo or Tsunade getting a direct clean shot it



 Nagato can't tank a hit from Ei, that's crazy.

 Likewise, Mei's Hidden Mist or Onoki's Jinton can easily block his Field of Vision and allow them to get the upperhand in a similar way that they did against a stronger Dojutsu user.




> He can react to hypersonic FRS's while exhausted, chakra depleted and through a medium. He'd be just fine against Ei concedering he can sense chakra buildup as well.



 Except Sandaime Raikage effortlessly dodged FRS twice. It really doesn't mean much when Deva Path barely reacted to KN6 Naruto's Shunshin who's speed feats are inferior to Ei's.


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## Ersa (Oct 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Madara would need an extreme level of difficulty to get past Kamui & six bijū, yet Obito doesn't even need the bijū to beat Nagato. You are underestimating Obito, or maybe overestimating Madara.


Mokuton and Perfect Susanoo are more then capable of dealing with the Bijuu in a similar fashion to Naruto. Kamui is a pickle but I'm confident with his moveset that Madara gets the better of him eventually. And honestly Obito does need the Bijuu to win, I think you're underestimating Nagato if you think he loses to just Kamui.



> I hear Raikage is pretty fast.


I've never seen a 100m Shunshin from Raikage and Nagato can react to Ei I'd imagine at 100m.



> If you are a casual mountain buster, you are a threat to those three. They just happen to have counters to Bijū Mode. Match ups are real. Minato may lose to Sage Kabuto (another high tier) because his offense is completely reliant on speed, but B can just nuke Kabuto with Continuous Bijūdama.


Not really, B would've been forced to retreat by injured, Taka Sasuke. He's considerably weaker then anyone at the upper echelon of high tiers. Is he a threat? Yes, but a normal shinobi with a kunai is a threat to Hashirama. It doesn't ever mean B will win against the likes of Minato and Nagato because they'll beat him every single time.

B never goes Bijuu Mode off the bat which could leave him open to a 	Senpō: Hakugeki + senjutsu chakra scapel in his head. Manda II could also be a pain in the ass. It's a better matchup for B but I think Kabuto should win it under fair conditions.



> Gimped Naruto & B without Bijū Mode would struggle with A & Tsunade alone.


I don't see what Bijuu Mode B brings against Nagato. He eats CST or boss-sized ST and then gets put in a CT that was implied to contain KN9. And we both know 50% Kurama is leagues ahead of the Hachibi. And no, I think gimped Naruto stands a small chance of soloing because Pain Arc SM Naruto was already ahead of Tsunade by miles. Add B and they easily beat Tsunade and Ei.



> You need to keep things in perspective. What we saw was not Nagato shutting down the best B & KCM Naruto had to offer. We saw Nagato best a clone-less Naruto, who was inexplicably stripped of his speed & intelligence, and base B without proper knowledge, who thought an _ambush_ would work on Nagato.


If we want to play the perspective game. We saw a Nagato being controlled using a fraction of his total power to mop the floor with B and Naruto. Nothing in that scene doesn't suggest Nagato >> gimped KCM Naruto + B.



> The five kage will have none of those problems. None of the high tiers are complete enough to favorably match up against five different mid tiers. That is exclusive to top tiers, who all have offense _and_ defense sitting at mountain level or higher.


Knowledge doesn't change the fact they are hilariously outgunned. It also doesn't change the fact that Nagato is almost three tiers ahead of individual members of Gokage (Gaara, Mei). And ultimately portrayal wise it took Edo Itachi, KCM Naruto and B to win against the closest thing to Prime Nagato. A team which would wipe the Gokage off the map in less then a minute.

So yeah I don't see the feats nor the portrayal for the Gokage to take down a city/island buster when their best feat was catching a jocking Madara off-guard. It's not an easy fight and it's probably a very high difficulty win under these conditions.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A is far faster than Rasenshuriken, and has come quite close to tearing the heads off of speedsters twice now. I'm not going to grant Nagato the ability to do _anything_ in response to the v2 Shunshin when the Yellow Flash barely had time to flash, especially if he's forced to rely on sensing.



A's probably a tad bit faster but not by much when compared to a V2 Jinchuriki's speed feat, because Nagato was able to take a lariat from KB head on and in the same process suck the chakra out of it. At the very least the attack is going to be either weakened before he can take the full force of it or Nagato will rip away chakra to heal the damage inflicted on himself. Further to the point, Nagato has a dojutsu to see the chakra and is an apt sensor to boot. I don't see any of the Gokage winning this fight, whether they work together or not, there's no universe where Naruto, Killer Bee and Itachi are = Gokage.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 23, 2015)

Rocky, I'm still firmly of the opinion that all of NTCM Naruto's are easily kage-level

Nothing really contradicts it. Nothing shows said clones being defeated by Jōnin-levels or whathaveyou

They simply weren't shown nearly as frequently as the one

And all shadow clones are equal

The only thing separating clones and their original is how much punishment they can take

Otherwise they have the exact same co.bat traits. I'm.not sure about Tobirama's statement but it goes against everything we've learned about shadow clones

lolkishi

And @ersatz, Kabuto can't beat Bijū Mode Killer Bee or even V2 Killer Bee if we're being real

Bijū Mode is materialized _very_ quickly as seen in the Naruto-Itachi-Killer-Bee vs. Nagato fight, whereas V2 is summoned nigh-instantly ala Gates

In both those scenarios Kabuto can't do shit to him lol

He doesn't exactly have effective techniques against anybody above city-block level in DC and durability


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## trance (Oct 23, 2015)

Nagato rapes. A demonstration of might around the mountain range level is enough to leave the Gokage utterly helpless and if he's fast enough to react to Nine-Tails Chakra Mode's speed, he can react to Ei.


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## Trojan (Oct 23, 2015)

The Gokage fodderstomps the hell out of him. Low difficult.
There is nothing Nagato can do here.

Tsunade already know (and granted full knowledge anyway) that the chakra in their feats will protect them from his gravity abilities. In addition to
Katsuyu to make ST useless, and even CST. Onoki's Jinton will shit on Nagato's CT.

Mei's Mist against the shared vision. The strategy they used against Madara to make Preta Path useless.

A completely crushes him in term of Taijutsu as well

and so on...


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## trance (Oct 23, 2015)

Bee is physically stronger than Ei and Nagato casually restrained him.


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## Trojan (Oct 23, 2015)

B did not have Tsunade to make ST useless, nor did he have Onoki to make him attack much stronger either.
Not to mention the different in speed...

Edit:
and also Nagato was able to him coming with the Shared Vision, which, surprise surprise, is useless here because
of Mei's mist, so that is not happening here either...

You can argue that Nagato will sense them, but he is still not going to be able to react.


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## trance (Oct 23, 2015)

Just looked and even a far superior version of Bee did jack shit with a _direct_ hit [x]. 

Then, a bit later, his Asura Path physically restrains Bee like a helpless child [x] and was on the verge of being killed before Itachi intervened [x].

In a single instance, he nearly lolstomped two ninja who are individually stronger than any of the Gokage. A _bloodlusted_ Nagato uses Chibaku Tensei and it becomes the Gokage's new tomb.


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## Trojan (Oct 23, 2015)

- Nagato absorbed B's chakra. How can absorb Onoki's jutsu on A? 
- Again, A is faster than B. Nagato reacting to B does not mean he can react to A. 



> and was on the verge of being killed before Itachi intervened


Good. So, Nagato was not able to handle 1 extra person. How is he going to handle 3 extra people? 



> In a single instance, he nearly lolstomped two ninja who are individually stronger than any of the Gokage.



Let's pretend that Naruto did not divided his chakra into 13 clones, and he barely used his power.
Not to mention, your comparison does not mean much here because of the fact that the Gokage actually do have
counters, and they were facing someone who has everything Nagato has and even more....



> A bloodlusted Nagato uses Chibaku Tensei and it becomes the Gokage's new tomb.


That sweet and all, except for the fact that the Gokage has a Jinton user. 
The same jinton that will EASILY go through all the rocks and destroy the core of CT.


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## Matty (Oct 23, 2015)

They really can't stop CT or CST. So I don't see my man, Nagato, losing this one. He is probably one of the best all around fighters ever shown and his attacks are incredibly powerful. He is easily the strongest non-god tier shinobi and I would not be afraid to say he is transcendent. Not quite a god-tier character but above all non-god tier opponents similar to Healthy Itachi in certain ways.


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## Trojan (Oct 23, 2015)

Tsunade already did saved her people from CST. Have you ever read Pain Arc?


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## Matty (Oct 23, 2015)

Did she take one to the face? No. And I would Imagine Prime Nagato's CST is superior to a sick Nagato who was channeling through Yahiko. And they still can't stop CT, unless Jinton can destroy the core, but I'm not buying it.


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## Trojan (Oct 23, 2015)

Pff, why the fuck would she take some attack"to the face" in order to "They really can't stop CT or CST."

For example, did Hashirama take Madara's PS's sword direct hit to his face and survived? No? Oh shit, I guess he can't
deal with PS.  



> And I would Imagine Prime Nagato's CST is superior to a sick Nagato who was channeling through Yahiko


Irrelevant with Katsuyu being there.



> And they still can't stop CT, unless Jinton can destroy the core, but I'm not buying it.


and why wouldn't the Jinton go right through that exactly?


----------



## Matty (Oct 23, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Pff, why the fuck would she take some attack"to the face" in order to "They really can't stop CT or CST."
> 
> For example, did Hashirama to Madara's PS's sword direct hit to his face and survived? No? Oh shit, I guess he can't
> deal with PS.
> ...



Because a CST at point blank and aimed at someone would obviously do a lot more damage than a CST just aimed at a general village.

Why irrelevant? If she's dead she's dead, Katsuyu can't bring her back (can she?)

There is no evidense suggesting Jinton being able to destroy a CT core, so I am going to go with probably not going to work.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 23, 2015)

Prime Nagato is nearly as powerful as Madara...pretty much the only reason Madara>him is PS. Madara trolled the Gokage and the nature of Nagato's techniques would fodderstomp the shit out of them.

He would take out the threat of Jinton instantly before anything he's not an idiot.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 23, 2015)

1- Again, it does not matter because Katsyuy's durability is off the chart. Not to mention, I don't even see why
would Nagato do something that powerful/big (which has a side effects on him) against small/little targets anyway. 



> Why irrelevant? If she's dead she's dead, Katsuyu can't bring her back (can she?)



It's irrelevant because she will be inside Katsuyu whose durability is much stronger and can tank any attack more
or less. So, the kages will not be the ones to take a direct hit here, but Katsuyu...



> There is no evidense suggesting Jinton being able to destroy a CT core, so I am going to go with probably not going to work.


Says who?
We know for a fact that the Jinton destroy anything in its path. It was stated AND shown. 
the CT is made of rocks that are being pulled to the core. We have seen the Jinton being able to destroy rocks, Susanoo and other shit...

If anything, there is no evidence that the CT core is Jinton-proof. 
What makes that any better?


----------



## Rocky (Oct 23, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Mokuton and Perfect Susanoo are more then capable of dealing with the Bijuu in a similar fashion to Naruto. Kamui is a pickle but I'm confident with his moveset that Madara gets the better of him eventually.



What about that isn't extreme difficulty for Madara.



Ersatz said:


> I've never seen a 100m Shunshin from Raikage and Nagato can react to Ei I'd imagine at 100m.



He'd be closer than 100m when the Chameleon actually appeared, but I account for Nagato reacting to him in my scenario anyway.



Ersatz said:


> Not really, B would've been forced to retreat by injured, Taka Sasuke.



B killed Sasuke three times in that fight. 



Ersatz said:


> I don't see what Bijuu Mode B brings against Nagato. He eats CST or boss-sized ST and then...



...he gets up, crawls over to Nagato, and punches him until he's a red stain on the ground. CST temporarily turns off the Deva Path, which means Nagato has no defense against that.

He needs to use Chibaku Tensei first and _pray_ that a large Bijūdama can't destroy the unprotected core.



Ersatz said:


> A team which would wipe the Gokage off the map in less then a minute.



They wiped Nagato off the map in around five, and he only lasted that long because of PIS.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 23, 2015)

kyouko said:


> Bee is physically stronger than Ei and Nagato casually restrained him.



 Base Bee is also much slower than Ei, likewise, Ei actually has powerful Karate chops whereas Bee did not. I also have a hard time believing that Nagato's Asura Path can touch Raikage through his Raiton Armor.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 23, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Prime Nagato is nearly as powerful as Madara...pretty much the only reason Madara>him is PS. Madara trolled the Gokage and the nature of Nagato's techniques would fodderstomp the shit out of them.
> 
> He would take out the threat of Jinton instantly before anything he's not an idiot.



 No way dude.

 Madara's essentially Nagato with only his Rinnegan abilities if not, greater due to having higher reflexes and better usage of the Rinnegan. Factor in that the Gokage countered his Increased Field of Vision, Mokuton, V3 Susano'o clones and forced him to go above a V3 Susano'o implies they can handle Nagato's abilities.

 Nagato has absolutely nothing. He'd at least need a Susano'o to survive against the Gokage in a similar way that Madara did.


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## Ersa (Oct 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What about that isn't extreme difficulty for Madara.


I'd say it'd be mid-high difficulty, extreme difficulty is Hashirama vs. Madara at VOTE and Hashirama only barely edging it out. I don't see the same happening here. Dispatching the Bijuu is rough but handling essentially MS Obito after is not going to be too difficult for a top tier of Madara's calibre. 



> He'd be closer than 100m when the Chameleon actually appeared, but I account for Nagato reacting to him in my scenario anyway.


Which means ST, summons and Asura Path could potentially stop him from killing the Chameleon. 



> B killed Sasuke three times in that fight.


He killed an injured, base Sasuke with no knowledge. A weaker, injured Hebi Sasuke basically.

Once Amaterasu came out, the tide shifted considerably to Taka's side.



> ...he gets up, crawls over to Nagato, and punches him until he's a red stain on the ground. CST temporarily turns off the Deva Path, which means Nagato has no defense against that.


In what universe is B crawling back from this unscathed? *[1]*

I mean Gamabunta was one-shot by a regular ST and he could match Shukaku. Somehow I doubt Hachibi is going to just get up and crawl back over to punch Nagato. 



> He needs to use Chibaku Tensei first and _pray_ that a large Bijūdama can't destroy the unprotected core.


Considering B, it'll take him a while to figure out he can aim the core. KN6 did but it was too late and once the core builds up, it was said to contain Kurama so yeah B isn't doing shit then.



> They wiped Nagato off the map in around five, and he only lasted that long because of PIS.


Nagato's performance is leagues ahead of what I think would happen in a fight between Edo Itachi, B and KCM Naruto and the Gokage. I'm inclined to believe B and Itachi or Itachi and Naruto alone winning against the Gokage.

It's simple power-scaling. Pain Arc SM Naruto is much stronger then any of the Gokage. KCM Naruto [gimped] and Edo Itachi are significantly stronger then he is.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 23, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> but handling essentially MS Obito after is not going to be too difficult for a top tier of Madara's calibre.



Tell that to BM Naruto, Gai, B, and Kakashi.

There's no discernable gap between Rinnegan Obito & Edo Madara. Give me one person Madara could beat that Obito couldn't.



Ersatz said:


> Which means ST, summons and Asura Path could potentially stop him from killing the Chameleon.



Indeed. My scenario accounted for this. []



Ersatz said:


> Once Amaterasu came out, the tide shifted considerably to Taka's side.



Amaterasu only came out because Sasuke was given a fourth chance at life by his team. B humiliated Sasuke.



Ersatz said:


> In what universe is B crawling back from this unscathed?



It's weaker than Bijūdama, isn't it? Gyūki actually has good damage soak, and I hear that's pretty good versus a giant "push." I suggest you remember that Tsunade & Katsuyu teamed up and "soaked" CST right up. B may not be as unscathed as Katsuyu was, but I doubt it'll take him out of the fight.



Ersatz said:


> Considering B, it'll take him a while to figure out he can aim the core.



One, he has knowledge. Two, Gyūki is smart. Three, lol@ comparing B to an apeshit Naruto. 



Ersatz said:


> It's simple power-scaling. Pain Arc SM Naruto is much stronger then any of the Gokage. KCM Naruto [gimped] and Edo Itachi are significantly stronger then he is.



A, Ōnoki, Tsunade, and Gaara (in a desert) would _all_ dispatch Pain Naruto before he reached Sage Mode.

If you start him in Sage Mode, he might beat Tsunade or Ōnoki before he runs out, but that's debatable. 

If you start him with the ridiculous preparation he had against Pain, he beats Nerfed KCM Naruto and has a respectable chance to win against Edo Itachi.


----------



## Ersa (Oct 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tell that to BM Naruto, Gai, B, and Kakashi.
> 
> There's no discernable gap between Rinnegan Obito & Edo Madara. Give me one person Madara could beat that Obito couldn't.


There is a discernable gap, Madara can beat Naruto (and by extension Minato) while Obito would struggle and lose against both under fair conditions most of the time.



> Indeed. My scenario accounted for this. []


This is a prime, mobile Nagato so he can just dodge the sand...



> Amaterasu only came out because Sasuke was given a fourth chance at life by his team. B humiliated Sasuke.


He humiliated a injured, base version of Sasuke yes. He struggled once Sasuke got just one of his MS powers. The fact he can struggle with people like Kisame and pre-Susanoo low mastery, injured Sasuke prevents me from putting him in the top part of the high tiers where Nagato, Minato and Edo Itachi reside. Someone at that level shouldn't struggle, irregardless of match-up.



> It's weaker than Bijūdama, isn't it? Gyūki actually has good damage soak, and I hear that's pretty good versus a giant "push." I suggest you remember that Tsunade & Katsuyu teamed up and "soaked" CST right up. B may not be as unscathed as Katsuyu was, but I doubt it'll take him out of the fight.


Weaker then the Bijuudama that took B out? *[1]*

Maybe not cause that's smaller then KN6 Bijuudama. *[1]*

CST > KN6 Bijuudama > Uncharged B Bijuudama judging by sheer AOE alone. I think CST does more then a moderate amount of damage to B considering his uncharged Bijuudama put him down.



> One, he has knowledge. Two, Gyūki is smart. Three, lol@ comparing B to an apeshit Naruto.


I'd assume we're talking about the Nagato fight B in which case he doesn't. Secondly he sometimes refuses to listen to Gyuki (Kisame fight) and thirdly B is just as dumb as Naruto.



> A, Ōnoki, Tsunade, and Gaara (in a desert) would _all_ dispatch Pain Naruto before he reached Sage Mode.


Clones.

Plus if we're talking about SM Naruto, I'm assuming he's in SM already.



> If you start him in Sage Mode, he might beat Tsunade or Ōnoki before he runs out, but that's debatable.


Might beat Tsunade? He outmanoeuvres her and counters regeneration with Senpo: FRS.

He stomps Mei, lol.

Yeah Gaara being a threat to SM Naruto is a joke in itself.

Ei could be debatable, but if he baits him with a clone and catches him with FRS it could work. 

He can sense and detect Jinton as well. Given his all around superior stats I'd bank on him taking down Onoki, only further aided if his back kicks in.



> If you start him with the ridiculous preparation he had against Pain, he beats Nerfed KCM Naruto and has a respectable chance to win against Edo Itachi.


Naruto begs to differ.


There is absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. Nagato seemed impressed by his power even while gimped. And there is little evidence to suggest Edo Itachi loses to Pain Arc Naruto when he outperformed a stronger version of him. War Arc SM Naruto you could make a case for but Pain Arc without genjutsu protection and better feats? No way in hell.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 24, 2015)

> Maybe not cause that's smaller then KN6 Bijuudama. *[1]*


I know how much you people hate calculations, but even with that low-end size of Bijūdama (the one that hit Gyūki), it's _still_ bigger than the one Naruto fired.

Let alone the high-end sizes that the rest of the Bijū fired and was deflected by Naruto to separate mountain ranges.

An half-charged Bijūdama from a V2 Jinchūriki has no business being superior to a full Bijū's anyways. I know, i know, Kyūbi is so much stronger than everyone else, yada, yada, yada, but Bijūdama's power is proportional to its size. If the Two-Tails fired a regular-sized ball against Kyūbi's, they'd be equal.




> CST > KN6 Bijuudama > Uncharged B Bijuudama judging by sheer AOE alone. I think CST does more then a moderate amount of damage to B considering his uncharged Bijuudama put him down.



Typical uncharged Bijūdama are a lot bigger than Konoha.



> There is absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. Nagato seemed impressed by his power even while gimped. And there is little evidence to suggest Edo Itachi loses to Pain Arc Naruto when he outperformed a stronger version of him. War Arc SM Naruto you could make a case for but Pain Arc without genjutsu protection and better feats? No way in hell.



Outperforming a gimped version of NTCM Naruto because he was smarter has nothing to do with actual combat strength.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 24, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Obito would struggle and lose against both under fair conditions most of the time.



Naruto couldn't take Obito alone in the manga. Edo Minato would probably beat him, though. I'd honestly attribute that to match up, and Edo Madara is no sure thing against Edo Minato anyway.



Ersatz said:


> This is a prime, mobile Nagato so he can just dodge the sand...



Sure. The point of Gaara is to distract Nagato momentarily. Then "Tsunade is on his ass," etc.



Ersatz said:


> Someone at that level shouldn't struggle, irregardless of match-up.



Hashirama would "struggle" if he got pegged by an Amaterasu out of nowhere. 



Ersatz said:


> Five kage vs Naruto stuff...



If Naruto does not start in Sage Mode, then Ōnoki Jintons, A blitzes, Gaara Sand Tsunamis, and Tsunade kinda just chases him down.

If he does start Sage Mode, then Tsunade, A, and Gaara stall for five minutes, and then do the aforementioned. Ōnoki's back might give, but if not, then he'd last more than five minutes too.  

You should probably not downplay Sage Mode's fatal flaw.



Ersatz said:


> Naruto begs to differ. And there is little evidence to suggest Edo Itachi loses to Pain Arc Naruto when he outperformed a stronger version of him.



KCM Naruto is stronger than Pain Naruto.

KCM Naruto w/ no clones is most certainly *not* stronger than Pain Naruto beginning in Sage Mode with three nature batteries next to five battle toads (two of which are also sages) that he did not have to summon.

The disparity grows if we factor in KCM Naruto's over the top PIS.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 24, 2015)

gaara and certainly not tsunade are not going to last five minutes against Sage Naruto, Pain Arc or otherwise.

have you seen tsunade's fight style

that's like begging for a rasenshuriken

with Gaara, Rasenshuriken goes through every single one of his defenses like a hot knife through butter, until the expansion fucks him over

Sage Naruto is decisively above those two. Without a doubt. Even with that restriction in place.

Onoki and Ei are the only contestable ones, and even the latter's doubtful given naruto's ability to trick much smarter opponents

I can see Onoki winning, because his Jinton is a hard counter. But sky-jumping clones will make it extremely hard for him.


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## Rocky (Oct 24, 2015)

Tsunade will adapt, and Gaara could block C3 in a desert. 

Raikage evades the fuck out of Naruto's everything.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 24, 2015)

lol Tsunade will adapt

Tsunade doesn't ever adapt beforehand, she gets hit then adapts

Except FRS is a one-shot kill for her so ya

C'mon, Rocky, do you really believe in your heart of hearts that Tsunade would ever beat Sage Naruto

Like, after all the hints we got back in the Invasion of Pain that no one in the Leaf Village was on Naruto's level

I'd guarantee FRS' ultra-thin blades could sever through Gaara's _regular_ defenses, which is what he's going to employ because he has no reason to pull up village-sized fields of sand to defend against a technique barely the size of a human being lol

besides, FRS' energetic power > C3 IMO given the Chibaku Tensei crater detonation

Smoke bombs fuck over Ā, if Naruto's cautious enough. Ā comes swinging in or pops a clone, then gets blindsided by Rasengans or a surprise FRS


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## Rocky (Oct 24, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> C'mon, Rocky, do you really believe in your heart of hearts that Tsunade would ever beat Sage Naruto



I think she can last five minutes against him. ck



ATastyMuffin said:


> he has no reason to pull up village-sized fields of sand to defend against a technique barely the size of a human being lol



He _literally_ did just that against C3.



ATastyMuffin said:


> besides, FRS' energetic power > C3 IMO given the Chibaku Tensei crater detonation



Gtfo with that crater feat. It's a Sakura-level outlier. 



ATastyMuffin said:


> Ā comes swinging in or pops a clone, then gets blindsided by Rasengans or a surprise FRS



I hear super reflexes are pretty good against surprise attacks.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Oct 24, 2015)

C'mon, the 3rd Raikage evaded a blindside RasenShuriken attempt from KCM Naruto. 

 RasenShurikens are no issue for the Raikage.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I think she can last five minutes against him. ck



Against a fighter who can implode in her own head with senjutsu-enhanced Rasengans and two Rasenshuriken faster than her and can turn her into paste, plus Naruto's tactical ability which would make short work of her reckless and frankly moronic fighting style...

LOL 




> He _literally_ did just that against C3.



Deidara straight-up told Gaara to his face, that he was going to destroy the town lol

Why would Gaara ever ever suspect Rasenshuriken is something that requires town-level amounts of sand to deflect

Finally, the C3 is a technique that fell from hundreds of meters in the sky with nothing but the speed of gravity to pull it towards the Sand Village

Naruto's Rasenshuriken has canonically crossed _kilometers_ in a single second

The idea that Gaara could form a massive defense in time is...well...

you know where i'm getting at eh



> Gtfo with that crater feat. It's a Sakura-level outlier.



After seeing this thing pretty severely hurt the strongest Bijū?  

I don't think an explosion that size would be unjustified.




> I hear super reflexes are pretty good against surprise attacks.


[/QUOTE]

Not attacks he can't see, though.

Naruto can sense him in the smoke gas, Raikage can't.

If he eats a single senjutsu-enhanced Rasengan or two to the back, it's over.


----------



## Tarot (Oct 24, 2015)

The Gokage already countered Madara's absorption with their Electric-sand-water dragon, so Preta is a null point. Nagato puts up a fight but he eventually gets destroyed. His only defense would be a chou shinra tensei, and then he's screwed for the rest of the match since he can't use Deva anymore. After that, the only crutch Nagato has to lean on is his summons and those are easily dealt with via any of the Gokage. The only problematic one is the dog, but Mei or Onoki can easily deal with it. Gaara's sand sensing could detect Mu, the chameleon is also non-factor. They totally shut down all of Nagato's Rinnegan abilities. His only hope is the Gedo Mazo and even that can possibly be killed by Mega Jinton. As usual, the Gokage are getting severely underrated even though Madara had to use his strongest tech to beat them.


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## Ersa (Oct 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Naruto couldn't take Obito alone in the manga. Edo Minato would probably beat him, though. I'd honestly attribute that to match up, and Edo Madara is no sure thing against Edo Minato anyway.


He dispatched the 6 Bijuu with relative ease (for his first BM transformation) and made Obito actually sweat. BM Naruto with solid mastery of his BM is generally stronger then Obito, he can dispatch his Bijuu and his insane speed/clones are solid workarounds to Kamui. Surely it's not easy but he's stronger and he matches up better against Hashirama/Madara/god tiers.



> Sure. The point of Gaara is to distract Nagato momentarily. Then "Tsunade is on his ass," etc.


Tsunade gets occupied by Cerberus and surprise BT + Soul Ripped. 



> Hashirama would "struggle" if he got pegged by an Amaterasu out of nowhere.


He'd never be in such a position. As far as "tiering" going, B has never shown to be that far ahead of people like Taka Sasuke.



> If he does start Sage Mode, then Tsunade, A, and Gaara stall for five minutes, and then do the aforementioned. Ōnoki's back might give, but if not, then he'd last more than five minutes too.


How on earth does Tsunade stall?

By outrunning someone who is much faster then her 3.5 speed? Naruto chases her down, uses Sage sensing to dodge her strikes and tags her in the head with FRS. Good luck regenerating a head with your chakra cells severed.

Gaara's best defense (Sand Mom) could barely tank Yasaka Magatama (the weakest variant) from Madara, Senpo: FRS blows right through it.

Ei isn't going to stall. He's going in and he risks getting clone feinted and tagged with FRS there. Granted, he has the best chance of winning.



> You should probably not downplay Sage Mode's fatal flaw.


It is a flaw.

But SM Naruto is much stronger then all of the Gokage bar Onoki.



> KCM Naruto is stronger than Pain Naruto.


Yes.



> KCM Naruto w/ no clones is most certainly *not* stronger than Pain Naruto beginning in Sage Mode with three nature batteries next to five battle toads (two of which are also sages) that he did not have to summon.


I'd argue he could be, depending on the conditions.

But that's neither here nor there. Without the summons, the quote means weakened KCM Naruto is stronger SM Naruto. And that doesn't change my point that Team Nagato would walk over The Gokage just as easily as Madara did (easier since they won't jock around).


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## Rocky (Oct 24, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> BM Naruto with solid mastery of his BM is generally stronger then Obito, he can dispatch his Bijuu and his insane speed/clones are solid workarounds to Kamui.



This fight happened in the manga. Clones & speed did not work on Obito. He needed Kakashi's Kamui to hit him. 



Ersatz said:


> Tsunade gets occupied by Cerberus and surprise BT + Soul Ripped.



If Nagato summoned Cerberus with the Chameleon, Ōnoki would hit it with Jinton before going in for his bear-hug. 



Ersatz said:


> He'd never be in such a position.



BL Taka Sasuke who starts with MS activated vs. IC Hashirama with no knowledge. Five-meter distance. 



Ersatz said:


> Five kage stuff



Tsunade stalls by hitting the ground when Naruto attempts to aim Rasenshuriken. It's likely he could figure out a way to hit her through trial & error, but he cannot apply that method with a five-minute Sage Mode that is shortened further by using the one technique that can kill her. 

Gaara's best defensive feat is blocking C3. C3 > Magatama. 

A will stall if he knows about Sage Mode's flaw. It's a different story if he does not know, but Naruto cannot feint A without a smoke bomb. Even if Naruto attempts a feint for his first Rasenshuriken (which he probably wouldn't do), A has the reflexes to evade the "surprise attack," even if it's thrown from point-blank range. 



Ersatz said:


> And that doesn't change my point that Team Nagato would walk over The Gokage just as easily as Madara did (easier since they won't jock around).



One, Team Nagato < Perfect Susano'o. It wouldn't be_ that_ easy.

Two, Team Nagato easily walked over Nagato.


----------



## Daenerys Stormborn (Oct 24, 2015)

If Nagato's bloodlusted, he's probably going to start the match with CT.  Gaara won't have had time to grind much sand, so he won't be able to stop the Gokage from being pulled up by the core.  The only thing the Kages have that could destroy the CT core is Jinton--and because of full knowledge, they'll know that they need to do this.  But full knowledge _also_ means that Nagato knows Jinton is a threat, and the fact that the Gokage are hurtling upward through the air with no way to stop themselves means they're traveling in an easily predictable path.  So Nagato will probably snipe Oonoki with the Asura laser, which allow the other Kages to be killed by CT.


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## Rocky (Oct 24, 2015)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> So Nagato will probably snipe Oonoki with the Asura laser, which allow the other Kages to be killed by CT.



We're not sure if Nagato can do anything else while forming the Chibaku Tensei mini-moon (sniping B or Naruto with the Asura laser might've saved him in the manga).

Maybe that's because the laser would fly towards the core, like everything else.


----------



## Daenerys Stormborn (Oct 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> We're not sure if Nagato can do anything else while forming the Chibaku Tensei mini-moon (sniping B or Naruto with the Asura laser might've saved him in the manga).
> 
> Maybe that's because the laser would fly towards the core, like everything else.



Oh, that's a good point. "Laser" makes me think of something composed entirely of light, but immense gravitational pull can still act on light (light not being able to escape black holes, for example).


----------



## Ersa (Oct 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> This fight happened in the manga. Clones & speed did not work on Obito. He needed Kakashi's Kamui to hit him.


Without Kakashi I'm of the opinion Naruto would've won but it would've been much harder. His reactions are nigh roof tier and he had sensing and clones to avoid being warped.



> If Nagato summoned Cerberus with the Chameleon, Ōnoki would hit it with Jinton before going in for his bear-hug.


From 100m? Doubt it.

And if he just tags the dog, it'll just multiply. *[1]*



> BL Taka Sasuke who starts with MS activated vs. IC Hashirama with no knowledge. Five-meter distance.


As soon as he sees the MS, it's likely Hashirama pulls something out.



> Tsunade stalls by hitting the ground when Naruto attempts to aim Rasenshuriken. It's likely he could figure out a way to hit her through trial & error, but he cannot apply that method with a five-minute Sage Mode that is shortened further by using the one technique that can kill her.


If she smashes up the landscape he uses his sensing to find her.

I think you're underestimating the speed difference between a tanky, 3.5 speed character and Sage-enhanced version of someone who's already comparable to Tsunade in speed. *[1]*



> Gaara's best defensive feat is blocking C3. C3 > Magatama.


C3 defense takes ages and requires a desert. The best defense Gaara can whip up in an instant is Sand Mom and that was busted by the weakest Magatama.



> A will stall if he knows about Sage Mode's flaw. It's a different story if he does not know, but Naruto cannot feint A without a smoke bomb. Even if Naruto attempts a feint for his first Rasenshuriken (which he probably wouldn't do), A has the reflexes to evade the "surprise attack," even if it's thrown from point-blank range.


Perhaps but surprise attacks do have a pretty high chance of working in the manga against fastest characters.



> One, Team Nagato < Perfect Susano'o. It wouldn't be_ that_ easy.


Yes but not by much. They have similar firepower (Bijuudama/Amaterasu/FRS), ample amounts of hax and Itachi who's pretty smart. Most opponents PS can take down, Team Nagato can replicate.

I'm not talking about Madara btw, just strictly PS.



> Two, Team Nagato easily walked over Nagato.


Easily is not the word I'd use when B and Naruto got their shit kicked in by Nagato until Itachi saved them. They did defeat a Kabuto-controlled Nagato yes but his performance is ahead of what the Gokage could do against the same team in my mind.

Edo Itachi literally won't die at all if Gaara can't wrench him out of V4 Susanoo with Imperial Treasures. And it's too bad there's 2 other high tiers running around helping him. Tsunade eats a FRS to the head and dies. Ei breaks his fist on Susanoo. Mei gets sniped by Itachi or nuked by B. Gaara dies somehow. Onoki is a threat but between B/Naruto running interference he gets sniped by Amaterasu or distracted by an Itachi clone and blown up by B or Naruto. I don't see them lasting 5 minutes. They probably lose 1-2 members in the opening few seconds under equal conditions.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 24, 2015)

Weighing down Cerebrus ultimately takes it down.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 25, 2015)

Chibaku Tensei is destroyed with Jinton. Tsunade can protect everyone from Pain's max-power Shinra Tensei using Katsuyu and chakra from her Yin Seal, like she did for all the people in Konoha.

With effective means to neutralize his best moves, Nagato is left to fight the five Kage directly. They've already got a proven way to get around his Ninjutsu absorption, too: that lame-ass combo attack they used on Madara.

The five Kage should win this, although Nagato will put up a fight.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 25, 2015)

I don't think the Gokage can d?molish CT , the Jutsu execution is super fast , it's already maintains range before KN6 can use his BD :

*Spoiler*: __ 








Even heated by KN6 BD , the CT was still growing even more and at a super fast rate :

*Spoiler*: __ 








Even the Mega Jinton witch blitzed 25 Susano'o clones isn't large enough , the PS is about at least two times biger itself much much smaller than moutains range :


War Arc Gokage can't blitz such a huge Jutsu .

In other hands , flying guys like Gaara and Onoki are a good counter to that kind of Jutsu , they can easily escape earth as well as CT gravity attraction I think .

So Gokage members should win I think :
-Mei and Onoki long range ninjutsu is countered by Gakidou .
-Same goes for Raikage's lightening armour .
-Gaara's sand is like physical attacks so , Nagato will be forced to use ST .
-4 Kage's attacks will make enough distraction for Tsunade , at this rate she can definitly blitz him by one of her punches .


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## Ersa (Oct 25, 2015)

^ Adding to this Jinton amped by Tsunade takes more time then KN6 Bijuudama.

Also

*Pain was stated to be able to create a CT that could contain KN9.*


*Nagato's techniques are much faster and stronger then Pein's.*


But I mean I'm sure Ei's punches, Katsuyu's acid and Gaara are capable of outputting more damage then Kurama so I'm probably just biased as fuck.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 25, 2015)

The thread says Prime Nagato, does this also mean, he can move? If so, then the kages are royally fucked.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 25, 2015)

Ersatz said:
			
		

> ^ Adding to this Jinton amped by Tsunade takes more time then KN6 Bijuudama.
> 
> Also
> 
> ...


No , Kurama's tails strikes and physical attacks are on a whole another level compared the Gokgae (Jinton isn't included) , Tsunade's Byakogou punches are on FRS level I think (and base punches at rasengan level) , Gaara's attacks can't even scratch a little Susano'o while he was attacking at the same time with Temari's Futon , Kankuro's Kugutsu and Darui's Ranton . Ei's punches boosted by Onoki may reach Tsunade's level , but in base he is much weaker . 1/2 Kurama is 1/2 Madara's PS power , average Kage level can't be compared to it .


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 25, 2015)

Nagato wins.

The Rinnegan alone forces the Gokage to use CQC, but that's useless with the Demon Path.
Combine that with Nagato's Ninjutsu mastery and he'll win.

Madara was capable of winning with much less than Nagato has *and* he was fucking around.


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2015)

Madara was "fucking around" by throwing Hashirama's jutsu at them, defending with both Susano'o & the Rinnegan. That is > Nagato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Madara was "fucking around" by throwing Hashirama's jutsu at them, defending with both Susano'o & the Rinnegan. That is > Nagato.



He said himself he was fucking around till the end. Madara could've ended that in several different ways.

Sadly for you, you're wrong. The standard of Hashirama jutsu that Madara used were actually shut down by the Preta Path. That's why Hashirama invented a whole new jutsu just to deal with the Preta Path. Even then, Madara probably wasn't using all he had. He probably just used Preta Path and the Outer Path stakes with EMS jutsu... if he went all out against Hashirama then Hashirama would have known that Madara could use Mokuton. 
Susanoo was just a constant defence, Madara's approach would've been different and quicker if he used more paths.

Any Gokage that comes close to Nagato after his Preta shuts down their Ninjutsu is fucked. Oonoki will have more than just back problems with a Shinra Tensei; a lot of the Gokage will be injured if it went omnidirectional.

Anyone not Oonoki has to find a way to deal with the many weapons Asura Path can spawn. 

The combo that they worked so hard to get Madara in? Shut down by a single Shinra Tensei... which can take out at least 3 of the Gokage all at once. 

The Rinnegan is beyond what the Gokage can handle. So much so that Madara himself didn't even think it was work using the Rinnegan's powers against them, except to fuck with them. 
When Madara got serious, he decided they weren't worthy and opted for PS.

Manga's ended and we're still in a position where users underestimate one of the two supreme eyes.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 25, 2015)

If we are comparing quality jutsu arsenals as a measuring stick for who has got in the bag then the Kage obviously don't. The greatest issue they'll have is attempting to fight the Six Paths of Pein, a unit whose cohesion is just as formidable as the Gokage's team-work. If not for his performance as an ET, then sure we could talk about how he was essentially a shell for the Rin'engan, but his performance against Itachi, Naruto and Killer Bee is an obvious indicator that if serious, he could solo the Gokage without question.

The argument that because Madara used Susano'o to defend himself, therefore since Nagato doesn't have that, he automatically loses is incorrect all together. Madara did not rely on the Rin'engan like Nagato did in any of his performances, which is something the Gokage are not prepared for. I mean, the Gokage don't even have a solid sensor in their team that could help pinpoint Nagato while they are engaging the Paths.

The only shinobi who stands a chance against Nagato is the Raikage, since his speed is the only thing that may give him trouble but again these one-trick ponies aren't enough to cut it against a Rin'negan user. The Gokage lack the extra juice required to take down someone like Nagato, the stuff that sets Nagato apart is not only his Rin'negan abilities, but his sensor-capabilities on top of his several boss-sized summons, to either take a flight advantage or hide with camouflage.

This is on top of any basic ninjutsu he may have access to within the Paths body, i.e. water-element via Deva Realm.


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2015)

Can somebody show me where Nagato handled a coordinated offense of five kage-level ninja with detailed knowledge on his abilities?


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 25, 2015)

Just re-read Chapter 549-551, honestly, I don't feel like posting every page and you'll see just why Nagato > Gokage. This is without the potential massive BT / CST / CT he can do given his chakra capacities.


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2015)

After a surprise attack on all three, Nagato singled out Killer B (who was unaware of Preta Path) and absorbed his cloak. Then Nagato played tug-of-war with Naruto, and caught base Killer B (who was unaware of shared vision) in midair. Then Itachi chopped his fucking arms off. Nagato then tried Chibaku Tensei, but the opposing team blew it up and sealed Nagato. Naruto, B, and Itachi were _uninjured_ after winning. 

So, where in that anal pounding people like to call a "fight" did Nagato display the ability to handle a coordinated offense of five kage-level ninja with detailed knowledge on him?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Can somebody show me where Nagato handled a coordinated offense of five kage-level ninja with detailed knowledge on his abilities?



The same time you show that *one* Rinnegan power didn't shut down all the Gokage's offensive power. You know, the one power that made them use a combo that Shinra Tensei would own.


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2015)

There is no one power that shuts all of them down.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> There is no one power that shuts all of them down.



Disagreeing with the manga? Madara explicitly said the Rinnegan forces them to engage in CQC simply because all their jutsu become useless due to Preta Path. 

One power allowed Madara to do some chilling while letting clones do the dirty work, while he wasn't going all out. One Rinnegan power allowed this. 

And what's the best the Gokage came up with to counteract this? A combo which could be owned by Shinra Tensei. Shinra Tensei, a jutsu which is capable of actually taking out a few Kage while getting the user out of binds. 

Based on just Preta Path, Shikaku Nara said only CQC would work on Madara. Via the manga and databook, we know that Shinra Tensei and Demon Realm make CQC pointless too.

Are there characters who could push the Rinnegan? Of course. Are the Gokage ITT among those characters? Of course not.

The Rinnegan was one of the two strongest eyes for a reason.


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Disagreeing with the manga? Madara explicitly said the Rinnegan forces them to engage in CQC simply because all their jutsu become useless due to Preta Path.



Well then, I guess it's a good thing that the five kage have elite close quarters specialists among them.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Well then, I guess it's a good thing that the five kage have elite close quarters specialists among them.


Not only can Nagato one shot Onoki and CT the rest, in which the rest of them are rendered helpless, but Nagato is also bloodlusted. Meaning, he can end all of them with an a CST at the start of the match…


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2015)

Nagato can't one-shot Ōnoki with the other four kage there.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Well then, I guess it's a good thing that the five kage have elite close quarters specialists among them.



Oddly enough you can't seem to full post. I say this because your point, a poor one addressed several times, was already addressed in the sections you chose to omit.

Basically if you think the Gokage having CQC specialists among them is a good point vs the Rinnegan. Then you've got an incredibly weak point.


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2015)

Your original point was too dumb to merit a full response. It actually contradicts itself, because Shinra Tensei & Preta Path are two powers.

Anyway, this:



			
				You said:
			
		

> One power allowed Madara to do some chilling while letting clones do the dirty work, while he wasn't going all out. One Rinnegan power allowed this.
> 
> And what's the best the Gokage came up with to counteract this? A combo which could be owned by Shinra Tensei.



...is dumb. The Mokuton~Susano'o clones themselves are what allowed Madara to "chill." The five kage had to find a way around Preta Path _and Susano'o._ Since Nagato has no Susano'o, A can ram a weighted fist into his nose at speeds he can't respond to, and the five kage can call it a day.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nagato can't one-shot Ōnoki with the other four kage there.


And why might that be? He can trash Onoki whenever he wants regardless of the other clowns.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nagato can't one-shot Ōnoki with the other four kage there.



Nagato basically used a small scaled ST which if not for Killer Bee and Naruto being Jinchuriki's would have basically been one-shot. Outside of Tsunade and Raikage none of the other kage are durable enough.

On top of that Nagato still has summons which would keep some kage occupied  but he basically used multiple Rin'negan powers all at once. I don't see how how one can use ST and then follow up with BT + Soul Rip. That fucken combo w/the summons would kill someone.

Nagato takes this in a stride.


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> And why might that be? He can trash Onoki whenever he wants regardless of the other clowns.



Nagato attempts Banshō Ten'in on Ōnoki, but Raikage grabs onto him and pulls the other way. Meanwhile, Mei uses mist to cloud the Rinnegan's vision while Tsunade simultaneously picks up a giant-ass boulder and launches it towards Nagato at 100mph. 

Nagato stops Banshō Ten'in in order to instinctively deflect the boulder back at the five kage with Shinra Tensei, but Gaara catches it with sand. Nagato is having difficulty seeing, so he decides to try and sense their position. He goes to change his chakra to the sensory type, but his head is suddenly collapsed by Backpack Raikage. 

Nagato stands no chance.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Your original point was too dumb to merit a full response. It actually contradicts itself, because Shinra Tensei & Preta Path are two powers.



Or you couldn't actually construct a proper counter argument. Oh so you're saying two Rinnegan powers can't used concurrently? 



> Anyway, this:
> ...is dumb. The Mokuton~Susano'o clones themselves are what allowed Madara to "chill." The five kage had to find a way around Preta Path _and Susano'o._ Since Nagato has no Susano'o, A can ram a weighted fist into his nose at speeds he can't respond to, and the five kage can call it a day.



Yeah if you read the post you'd see that the Mokuton and Susanoo were just means to allow Madara to chill knowing that the Preta Path would protect him from everything they'd throw at him.

If Madara used just the Rinnegan, he would still stomp the Kage.

Yes, because this speed really helped him crush Madara. 
Madara blocked A's hit without being crippled. Demon Path or a easy Shinra Tensei can handle this.

I'm interested now to see if you can actually form on argument.


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yeah if you read the post you'd see that the Mokuton and Susanoo were just means to allow Madara to chill knowing that the Preta Path would protect him from everything they'd throw at him.



Funny how Susano'o was used to defend against most of what the five kage were doing. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yes, because this speed really helped him crush Madara. Madara blocked A's hit without being crippled.



He never blocked weighted A or Byakugō Tsunade.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nagato attempts Banshō Ten'in on Ōnoki, but Raikage grabs onto him and pulls the other way. Meanwhile, Mei uses mist to cloud the Rinnegan's vision while Tsunade simultaneously picks up a giant-ass boulder and launches it towards Nagato at 100mph.
> 
> Nagato stops Banshō Ten'in in order to instinctively deflect the boulder back at the five kage with Shinra Tensei, but Gaara catches it with sand. Nagato is having difficulty seeing, so he decides to try and sense their position. He goes to change his chakra to the sensory type, but his head is suddenly collapsed by Backpack Raikage.
> 
> Nagato stands no chance.


What type of garbage scenario is that? Nagato uses one amped up ST on Onoki and expunges every bone in his body. Then, he can proceed to use CT on the rest of them. And honestly, that's being generous, as Nagato can just start off with a CST and eradicate all of them in one shot, considering he's BL. 

Oh, and actually reply with a scenario that doesn't result in Nagato one-shotting the Gokage. (If you can at least?)


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> What type of garbage scenario is that? Nagato uses one amped up ST on Onoki and expunges every bone in his body. Then, he can proceed to use CT on the rest of them. And honestly, that's being generous, as Nagato can just start off with a CST and eradicate all of them in one shot, considering he's BL.



Tsunade protects them all from CST with the Katusyu-Byakugō combination. 



sanninme rikudo said:


> Oh, and actually reply with a scenario that doesn't result in Nagato one-shotting the Gokage. (If you can at least?)



Nagato attempts Banshō Ten'in on Ōnoki, but Raikage grabs onto him and pulls the other way. Meanwhile, Mei uses mist to cloud the Rinnegan's vision while Tsunade simultaneously picks up a giant-ass boulder and launches it towards Nagato at 100mph.

Nagato stops Banshō Ten'in in order to instinctively deflect the boulder back at the five kage with Shinra Tensei, but Gaara catches it with sand. Nagato is having difficulty seeing, so he decides to try and sense their position. He goes to change his chakra to the sensory type, but his head is suddenly collapsed by Backpack Raikage.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Funny how Susano'o was used to defend against most of what the five kage were doing.



Funny how that was Madara fucking around. A serious Madara ended stronger foes with just 3 Rinnegan jutsu.



> He never blocked weighted A or Byakugō Tsunade.



He was also fucking around till Perfect Susanoo. I.E. these points would be meaningful if the Rinnegan user wasn't fucking around.


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A serious Madara ended stronger foes with just 3 Rinnegan jutsu.



Justu that Nagato can't use.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He was also fucking around till Perfect Susanoo.



Okay. Nagato still gets crushed without Susano'o.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade protects them all from CST with the Katusyu-Byakugō combination.



_Assuming_ she can summon Katusyu and have it protect them in time.. and _assuming_ Katusya can tank an attack with _substantially_ more power than a PS swing, from <100m

At best.... They'd all be launched into the next fucking time zone and loose track of Nagato's location. 
Which is going to be a MASSIVE tactical advantage for the guy that can sense you, has full knowledge on your own abilities, can hide his chakra signature and stay invisible inside a Chameleon and prevent you from finding them

Good luck gokage



Rocky said:


> Nagato attempts Banshō Ten'in on Ōnoki, but Raikage grabs onto him and pulls the other way. Meanwhile, Mei uses mist to cloud the Rinnegan's vision while Tsunade simultaneously picks up a giant-ass boulder and launches it towards Nagato at 100mph.



Because Nagato can't increase the pull of _Bansho Tenin'_? A _casual_ BT flung a 200+ ton bolder like a paper in the wind against Naruto. Logically he'd be able to increase the force the same way he does with ST as they are sister techniques

Because Nagato couldn't just meat shield a summon to prevent the boulder from hitting him?

And if Mei is using the _Kirikagure no Justu_, she's blinding her team as well



Rocky said:


> Nagato stops Banshō Ten'in in order to *instinctively* deflect the boulder back at the five kage with Shinra Tensei,



Nagato instinctively used _Shinra Tensei_ when fighting through Tendo as that was the *only* method the path had of defending itself. 



Rocky said:


> Gaara catches it with sand. Nagato is having difficulty seeing, so he decides to try and sense their position. He goes to change his chakra to the sensory type, but his head is suddenly collapsed by Backpack Raikage.



Gaara's going to catch a massive boulder being _launched at him_ by _Shinra Tensei_?.... let me know how that works

Nagato _very much has_ passive sensing. I.e him figuring out Naruto was approaching them and his immediate shock of Itachi building up _Amaterasu_. Someone with Ei's chakra signature is going to be like a flare in the basement


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## Sarry (Oct 25, 2015)

If the Gokage are fighting properly as a team, then Nagato has no chance even with his eye power. 
If the Gokage are fighting like they did when Madara was toying with them, Nagato will win. 


Nagato's best chance is to separate the Gokage and play on their weaknesses. The rinnengan is very potent, but like any other power, it can be defeated.


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2015)

@Joakim

Tsunade uses all of her Byakugō chakra to boost A's lightning shroud, and he tears Nagato in half with a v4 Lariat.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade protects them all from CST with the Katusyu-Byakugō combination.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that before or after they all get crushed by a force they fail to perceive?

Yeah, a bloodlusted Nagato uses a BT rather than a move that could smoke all his opponents in one go…


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade protects them all from CST with the Katusyu-Byakugō combination.



Well, to do that, she has to activate Byakugo and summon Katsuyu, and then Katsuyu has to split up and engulf each of the Kages.  It's going to take more time for her to do that than it will take Nagato to activate Shinra Tensei.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> @Joakim
> 
> Tsunade uses all of her Byakugō chakra to boost A's lightning shroud, and he tears Nagato in half with a v4 Lariat.



....and exactly _how long_ do you think that would take to charge?

Because I can assure it's not going to happen before Nagato figures out whats about to come his way and goes into full on assault mode or maximum layered defense mode


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> @Joakim
> 
> Tsunade uses all of her Byakugō chakra to boost A's lightning shroud, and he tears Nagato in half with a v4 Lariat.



Yeah, I don't see that happening, Preta nullfies that, neither of those two have chakra levels as large as Nagato, he can suck them dry should need to


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## Bonly (Oct 26, 2015)

Damn the last four post are replying to Rocky about how he wrong more or less. Well I don't wanna be "that guy" and do a combo breaker so I'll join in



Rocky said:


> Nagato attempts Banshō Ten'in on Ōnoki, but Raikage grabs onto him and pulls the other way.



Would that even work? The force would still constantly pull in Onoki and Nagato could prolly increase the pull so A might get pulled along for the ride as well.



> Meanwhile, Mei uses mist to cloud the Rinnegan's vision while Tsunade simultaneously picks up a giant-ass boulder and launches it towards Nagato at 100mph.



Asura path lasers could take care for that.



> Nagato stops Banshō Ten'in in order to instinctively deflect the boulder back at the five kage with Shinra Tensei, but Gaara catches it with sand. Nagato is having difficulty seeing, so he decides to try and sense their position. He goes to change his chakra to the sensory type, but his head is suddenly collapsed by Backpack Raikage.



Nagato can use Asura path instead of Deva path to get rid of the boulder though it seems like the boulder more likely end up getting destroyed by ST rather then simply repelled. Preta path be sucking up all that chakra and tanks the hit like Nagato did when B attacked him.


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## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> It's going to take more time for her to do that than it will take Nagato to activate Shinra Tensei.



Nagato has to jump up and aim down in order to crush them. If he just blasts them from an even ground, they'll all go flying like Naruto, Itachi, and B, but they won't die. 



Joakim3 said:


> Because I can assure it's not going to happen before Nagato figures out whats about to come his way and goes into full on assault mode or maximum layered defense mode



The other three can simply distract Nagato. Then, his entire upper body gets obliterated by a v4 lariat out of nowhere. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, I don't see that happening, Preta nullfies that



Nagato can't react to it. Even if he activated Fūjutsu Kyūin prior to A moving, ninjutsu absorption won't stop speed, which is what A uses to generate power, unlike B who uses bijū chakra.


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## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Nagato could prolly increase the pull so A might get pulled along for the ride as well.



Not if he needs to stop to use Shinra Tensei.



Bonly said:


> Asura path lasers could take care for that.



Likely too slow a process. Even if that worked, Tsunade can follow the boulder in and punch Nagato to pieces after he laser beams it.



Bonly said:


> Preta path be sucking up all that chakra and tanks the hit like Nagato did when B attacked him.



Nagato has no feats of reacting to v3 speeds, nor would preta stop the momentum garnered from such speeds.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nagato has to jump up and aim down in order to crush them. If he just blasts them from an even ground, they'll all go flying like Naruto, Itachi, and B, but they won't die.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He was able to react to KB's V2 charge, I'd give him the go ahead


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## FlamingRain (Oct 26, 2015)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> Well, to do that, she has to activate Byakugo and summon Katsuyu, and then Katsuyu has to split up and engulf each of the Kages.  It's going to take more time for her to do that than it will take Nagato to activate Shinra Tensei.



Even if Nagato can use the Rinnegan techniques more quickly than Pain, a Shinra Tensei with such scale that it was stated it had an effect on Nagato's lifespan is likely to take a few seconds to ready.

Tsunade could just summon the boss-sized Katsuyu in front of the Kages and have it cover them. Then they're protected by a slug more than a thousand times the size of the ones that could beast through the CST that leveled Konoha.


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## Tarot (Oct 26, 2015)

Again, I have yet to hear how the Nagato gets around their collective abilities. All of his Rinnegan abilities get shut down.
-Gaara detects the chameleon like he did Mu
-Cerberus is taken out by Jinton or Youton 
-Asura Path is nice and all, but pails in comparison to giant katons, mokuton, and 25 susanoos.
-Preta Path was already beaten by Dragon combo or be circumvented by Lightened Ay  
-CT is destroyed by Mega Jinton 
-Chou Shinra Tensei is the only things that would put the Gokage on the defensive but then Nagato loses his strongest ability for the rest of the match and is effectively screwed. If the match only comes down to that then the kage do have the proper defense. They have Katsuya, Sand Shield, and doton defense to protect them from the force of the attack. Tsunade herself tanked CST with no major injuries while taxing the rest of her chakra to heal the rest of the village. This time, she's only protecting the Gokage, whom are much more durable than the average shinobi. If we're going to bring up "she can't summon fast enough" that too is false. Jiraiya summoned a toad that protected Naruto from a point blank attack from Kisame in P1, Hashirama summoned Rashoman fast enough to intercept a TBB, and our favorite example, Sasuke summoned Manda fast enough to react to C0. Offensively and defensively, the Gokage collectively outperform Nagato.


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## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> He was able to react to KB's V2 charge, I'd give him the go ahead



B literally generated speed by pushing off the ground _with his hand._ [1]

V2 B lunge <<<<< v4 Raikage Shunshin.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 26, 2015)

Doesn't really matter considering Amaterasu burned him down slower than it did Killer Bee's Bijuu Mode, and he managed to use Shinra Tensei while it was severely damaging him. 

Nagato tanking a dozen explosive tags from Hanzo and coming out with his legs intact and enough grit to remain standing to summon Gedo Mazo & manipulate it is also quite an impressive durability feature. We're generally talking about his legs tanking the combined power of 12 of Itachi's Yasaka Magatamas. 

These aren't really needed though, the author wouldn't have drawn Nagato capable of using Preta Path while being hit with a V2 Lariat, however weakened it may have been, unless he meant to showcase him as superhuman durable. That is a tank and counter maneuver by Nagato, only durable ninja like Kisame, CS2 Jugo & KCM Naruto are written doing that kind of thing (in fact he did the exact same thing against Killer Bee).


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## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

Nagato being durable enough to withstand a lackluster Lariat with very little momentum behind it does not make him durable enough to withstand A punching him in the face at v4 speeds.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 26, 2015)

Meh, if you don't like that one you can take the Amaterasu or 12 Explosion Tag tanking feats.

He'd be better off using Raiton Chop than the punch, especially considering it only ever dented Jugo's flesh arm.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 26, 2015)

To be frank, I don't understand how a Bloodlusted Nagato doesn't win.

None of his adversaries are sensor-types. So while they're getting into gear and preparing for their assault (i.e., Ōnoki's entering Backpack Mode, Tsunade charging whoever, etc), Nagato charges Chō Shinra Tensei and wipes them clean off the map.

They won't anticipate it. They won't see it coming. They can't dodge it. All that happens is they get pulverized.

Gokage supporters befuddle me in how they envision Tsunade somehow knowing Nagato would use CST beforehand, summon Katsuyu, relay to her her instructions, and engulf everyone in slug flesh all before the blast happens.


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## Bonly (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Not if he needs to stop to use Shinra Tensei.



He doesn't need to stop and use ST so yeah



> Likely too slow a process. Even if that worked, Tsunade can follow the boulder in and punch Nagato to pieces after he laser beams it.



What suggest that Nagato using Asura path is slower then Tsunade throwing a boulder and it reaching his location hitting him?



> Nagato has no feats of reacting to v3 speeds, nor would preta stop the momentum garnered from such speeds.



Preta path stopped the momentum of V2 B, A goes the same way and if Onoki can react to A's speed in order to use a weighted jutsu I don't see Nagato having much of a problem either.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Meh, if you don't like that one you can take the Amaterasu or 12 Explosion Tag tanking feats.



The burning rate of the black flames is far too inconsistent to use as a measurement for anything. Nagato clearly wasn't tanking Amaterasu anyway.

It's also funny that you bring up the exploding tags. They crippled Nagato so badly that Edo Nagato was the only person revived with an injury from his actual life. 



DaVizWiz said:


> He'd be better off using Raiton Chop than the punch, especially considering it only ever dented Jugo's flesh arm.





If v1 Raikage's punch put a dent in a multi-layered Curse Mark shield, I would _love_ to see what a v4 punch would do to Nagato's face. 





ATastyMuffin said:


> Gokage supporters befuddle me in how they envision Tsunade somehow knowing Nagato would use CST beforehand, summon Katsuyu, relay to her her instructions, and engulf everyone in slug flesh all before the blast happens.



This is exactly what happened in the manga, except Tsunade had to protect an entire village of people instead of five.


----------



## FlamingRain (Oct 26, 2015)

Nagato starts floating.

Tsunade- "(That's-!!) Summoning Jutsu!" *POOF*

Nagato- "Shinra Tensei!" *Ka-BOOM*

...

The Five Kage emerge from Katsuyu when the dust settles.


----------



## Bonly (Oct 26, 2015)

What if Nagato doesn't start floating but just uses CST instead?


----------



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

Bonly said:


> He doesn't need to stop and use ST so yeah



He does, thanks to Tsunade. 



Bonly said:


> What suggest that Nagato using Asura path is slower then Tsunade throwing a boulder and it reaching his location hitting him?



It doesn't matter if it is or isn't, as Tsunade can easily follow the thrown boulder and attack Nagato herself while he tries to deal with it. 



Bonly said:


> Preta path stopped the momentum of V2 B



No, it didn't.



Bonly said:


> If Onoki can react to A's speed in order to use a weighted jutsu I don't see Nagato having much of a problem either.



Nagato doesn't get Ōnoki's feats.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Oct 26, 2015)

> The burning rate of the black flames is far too inconsistent to use as a measurement for anything. Nagato clearly wasn't tanking Amaterasu anyway.


Welp, if it burns down colossal summons, one of which was tanking FRS, nigh instantaneously in the same chapter it's safe to say Nagato is one durable bastard. 

I've never seen the same exact use of an attack (literally it was the same activation, he streamed the same Amaterasu activation on two summons and Nagato's body) inconsistent in damage feats. 

What we do know is every single Amaterasu feat with Itachi (CS2 Sasuke armor/body, Forest, Cerberus, Bird) has soread and destroyed at a rapid rate. It's only Sasuke's that are inconsistent. 

Somehow Nagato resisted incineration and the flames spreading longer and better than them. 



> It's also funny that you bring up the exploding tags. They crippled Nagato so badly that Edo Nagato was the only person revived with an injury from his actual life.


The crazy part was he was still standing upright and shunshining. That's actually far from crippled.

He certainly wasn't crippled directly after taking the explosions when he shunshin'd back while carrying Konan's dead weight, continued to stand upright, summoned Gedo Mazo and hard-penetrated his entire back and limbs with black receivers severely wounding himself, and still continued to stand upright to attack the entire division without receiving treatment for his burned limbs. 

All things considered Ei's greatest punching feat was denting CS2 Jugo's relatively thin arm shield, he required further seconds to dig-in-deeper with it to wound Jugo through the chest. As it turns out Jugo still had the ability to manifest a dozen chakra cannons during this, which breeds suspicion upon whether or not he intended for the Raikage to do what he did so he could kill him with his cannons. 

In other words, you'd be better off rolling with the Raiton Chop that took out Gyuki's horn. 



> If v1 Raikage's punch put a dent in a multi-layered Curse Mark shield, I would _love_ to see what a v4 punch would do to Nagato's face.


Multi-layered? Looked pretty thin to me.

V4? Where's this coming from?

I don't see his punch succeeding where a dozen explosion tags and amaterasu failed.

Roll with the Bijuu Horn Chop, trust me.


----------



## FlamingRain (Oct 26, 2015)

Bonly said:


> What if Nagato doesn't start floating but just uses CST instead?



IMO the levitation just kind of goes with the technique.


Nagato standing there would be suspicious, too, though...when the Kage have full knowledge.


----------



## Bonly (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He does, thanks to Tsunade.



Tsunade's not worthy, now if we were talking bout Katsuyu-Sama then I can understand 



> It doesn't matter if it is or isn't, as Tsunade can easily follow the thrown boulder and attack Nagato herself while he tries to deal with it.



Then Tsunade catches what Asura path is dishing out, being able to use at least three paths at once would be a good help I'd guess.



> No, it didn't.



So B kept going and sent Nagato flying like he did Kisame+Sasuke or did he get stopped and sent flying away? I'm pretty sure it wasn't the former.



> Nagato doesn't get Ōnoki's feats.



When he's got better feats he does.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> I've never seen the same exact use of an attack (literally it was the same activation, he streamed the same Amaterasu activation on two summons and Nagato's body) inconsistent in damage feats.



Karin's cloak. 



DaVizWiz said:


> The crazy part was he was still standing upright and shunshining. That's actually far from crippled.



Idk. Itachi needed to help him walk, so I say he was crippled. 

Also, if those tags had wrapped around his head and blew up, I doubt he's doing much of anything afterwards. 



DaVizWiz said:


> All things considered Ei's greatest punching feat was denting CS2 Jugo's relatively thin arm shield.



V1 A, yes. Not v4.



DaVizWiz said:


> Multi-layered? Looked pretty thin to me.



Well it wasn't:





DaVizWiz said:


> V4? Where's this coming from?



ITT:

V1- RCM Raikage

V2- RCM Max Power Raikage

V3- Lightened RCM Max Power Raikage.

V4- Byakugō-boosted RCM Max Power Raikage

V5- Byakugō-boosted Lightened RCM Max Power Raikage 

V6-  Minato's kunai.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Oct 26, 2015)

> Karin's cloak.


Lol clothes damage inconsistencies. 

Female Character, I'd love for the author to draw a naked Karin in his PG Manga.

Reminds me of the totally-male Itachi clone dying to a KN0 Odama Rasengan that blew up the entire landscape without a scratch on his cloak.

My favorite is actually Kisame's pants tanking Afternoon Tiger. 

Kisame's pants > Madara's V3 Susano

Confirmed. 

Gai staring at his mauled dick would've been interesting though. 



> Idk. Itachi needed to help him walk, so I say he was crippled.


Well I assume a lot of that had to do with the fact that he was not only revived with the damaged legs, but as likely the most unhealthy and malnourished shinobi in the entire manga. 

By and large if any other shinobi used to look like this , but turned into this , I'd imagine their power and physical abilities would wain considerably. Nobody gives a shit about that though.

So I don't just chalk that up to the injures he suffered against Hanzo, that man was barely a man. 

Natural age alone turned Hiruzen, largely known for his skill not so much his power as a shinobi into basically the dump by which the weakest kage (low kage level crossing line) can be measured. 

That being said Nagato was standing by himself, and he was moving by himself as that shelled version of himself. He was not crippled. 



> Also, if those tags had wrapped around his head and blew up, I doubt he's doing much of anything afterwards.


Eh, possibly. Of course the head is protected by a far more dense bone structure than his legs. 



> V1 A, yes. Not v4.


Indeed. 



> Well it wasn't:


You got me there.

Of course CS2 Sasuke's wing was nigh instantaneously incinerated by Itachi's Amaterasu. 



> ITT:
> 
> V1- RCM Raikage
> 
> ...


Not exactly sure Byakugo would do much. It's my opinion that the Raikage is pumping as much chakra into his shunshin as he is capable of. Having bijuu reserves himself, I'm not so sure increasing his reserves by any amount will somehow magically allow him to pump more into his shunshin.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Then Tsunade catches what Asura path is dishing out, being able to use at least three paths at once would be a good help I'd guess.



It would sure be interesting to see Nagato shoot both a large boulder & Tsunade simultaneously with one arm cannon while maintaining Banshō Ten'in on Ōnoki. 



Bonly said:


> So B kept going and sent Nagato flying like he did Kisame+Sasuke or did he get stopped and sent flying away?



B hit Nagato, and the chakra sucking held Nagato in place. Nagato wasn't obliterated (like he would be against v4 A) because a lunging B is not that fast.



Bonly said:


> When he's got better feats he does.



If Nagato has better reaction feats than Ōnoki, then why did you bring up Ōnoki in the first place?

Got 'em kid. ck


----------



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Of course CS2 Sasuke's wing was nigh instantaneously incinerated by Itachi's Amaterasu.



...and the same flames failed to burn down the surrounding trees, right? We should avoid Amaterasu for durability scaling at all costs. 

Nagato may be somewhat durable because he's an Uzumaki, but he's not Susano'o-level, and v3 Raikage ragdoll'd Madara's after putting a hole in it. Nagato is dead if he gets hit.



DaVizWiz said:


> Not exactly sure Byakugo would do much. It's my opinion that the Raikage is pumping as much chakra into his shunshin as he is capable of.



I'm pretty sure Byakugō pushes one past their limits. I doubt that Ōnoki can produce Jinton cubes that obliterate Susano'o armies on his own, or that Obito can normally power Kaguya-level techniques. 

Tsunade Byakugōs A's RCM, allowing him to control godly speeds. Now instead of v2 Raikage, he's v4 Raikage. V4 Raikage > Nagato.


----------



## Bonly (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It would sure be interesting to see Nagato shoot both a large boulder & Tsunade simultaneously with one arm cannon while maintaining Banshō Ten'in on Ōnoki.



Asura path can create six arms and Asura path can have the canon in either an arm or the head so I don't think Nagato will need to use one arm to try and shoot things and what not but I agree it would be interesting to see Nagato have fun with target practice.



> B hit Nagato, and the chakra sucking held Nagato in place.



Which would happen to A when he meets Preta path.



> Nagato wasn't obliterated (like he would be against v4 A) because a lunging B is not that fast.



Since when?



> If Nagato has better reaction feats than Ōnoki, then why did you bring up Ōnoki in the first place?
> 
> Got 'em kid. ck



To let you know that Nagato would react to the speed which you think he wouldn't ck


----------



## DaVizWiz (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> ...and the same flames failed to burn down the surrounding trees, right? We should avoid Amaterasu for durability scaling at all costs.
> 
> Nagato may be somewhat durable because he's an Uzumaki, but he's not Susano'o-level, and v3 Raikage ragdoll'd Madara's after putting a hole in it. Nagato is dead if he gets hit.
> 
> ...


How dare you ignore my clothes damaging inconsistency points. I wanted you to acknowledge Kishimoto doesn't like to destroy clothes, especially on females. 

Did they fail to burn them down? Damn that's embarrassing Itachi. 

Well surely Ei with Onoki's doton weight increase upon striking would take a dump on Nagato. He doesn't even need that, I already told you the Raiton Chop would suffice. He took out a bijuu's horn and his own arm off with it, Nagato gets bisected with a lightning channeled chop coming from Ei moving at V2 with the level strength and speed he can put behind that chop.

Onoki's Jinton use is viable, Byakugo definitely allowed him to make a bigger Jinton by using more chakra at the same rate,

But I do think Obito could already put that kind of chakra into his Kamui, he simply needed the chakra to put into it. Case and point Kakashi using Multiple Kamui through PS after gaining Obito's ability. Not to mention Obito didn't direct state he needed Byakugou to do it, he only stated he needed the chakra to do it. I don't know though, Kakashi getting more chakra from Kurama allowed him to make much larger Kamui warp holes nearly instantly, might be just Kurama's Chakra & Byakugou that allow people to literally augment the power of their abilities, not just use more and more of them before they run out of their chakra. Obito was definitely asking Naruto (Kurama) for chakra, and he did know about that chakra allowing normal shinobi to use their techniques in multiplied scale and power instantly as he witnessed Hinata & Kakashi using more powerful versions of their techniques, not just letting them use them more before dropping of exhaustion, maybe that's why he asked Naruto.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> This is exactly what happened in the manga, except Tsunade had to protect an entire village of people instead of five.



Bro, you have to stop ignoring context. First the Deidara example, now this....lol.

Tsunade was tipped off that Pain was going to blow up the village when he started monologuing about how Konoha needed to learn its lessons and needed to feel pain *after* he made a little remark about how everything was meaningless in the face of *overwhelming* power

Here's comparison panel

Tsunade started having suspicions before Pain ever took off the ground. She suspected it based off his words.

Here? Tsunade won't get that luxury.

To be frank, CST isn't even needed. Nagato points his hands and activates a boss-summon crippling Shinra Tensei that's leagues above Shukaku's own Wind Drilling Bullets and casually one-shots at least half the collective group.

Something of that level would probably knock out the Fourth Raikage, to be honest.


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## Ersa (Oct 26, 2015)

Tsunade has less time to react to Nagato then she did to Pain.

And CST will be even stronger.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nagato being durable enough to withstand a lackluster Lariat with very little momentum behind it does not make him durable enough to withstand A punching him in the face at v4 speeds.



Same said lackluster lariat decapitated one of the more durable characters in the manga. But Nagato is a sensor so despite the speeds, he'll have a heads up before getting hit and that's all he really needs.


----------



## FlamingRain (Oct 26, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Bro, you have to stop ignoring context.



And you ought to take your own advice.

Tsunade started having suspicions and then _chased after Pain herself_. That's how she was originally intending to deal with whatever he might have up his sleeve- _go stop him before he does it_.

She hadn't poured her Chakra into Katsuyu and had her surround everybody even as she was chasing him, as evidenced by her mark still being there and several of the characters being shown outside of Katsuyu just before the blast hit.

Yet, they were all protected in time.

In a situation where Tsunade is participating in a fight with Nagato and has full knowledge this time around, CST will be blocked again.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Asura path can create six arms



I've never seen him create two cannons, though. Have you? 



Bonly said:


> Which would happen to A when he meets Preta path.



It's unfortunate that Nagato would be too dead to absorb any of A's chakra.



Bonly said:


> Since when?



What's B's best speed feat when he pushes off with his hand?



Bonly said:


> To let you know that Nagato would react to the speed which you think he wouldn't



You don't seem to know what you're doing Bonly. Going in circles will not work. 

If Nagato has a better reaction feat than Ōnoki's combination with A, then you should probably go ahead and link it. It would have saved you the trouble of having to bring up Ōnoki at all.



Ryuzaki said:


> Same said lackluster lariat decapitated one of the more durable characters in the manga.



Um, do you mean the AB Double Lariat?


----------



## Joakim3 (Oct 26, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> And you ought to take your own advice.
> 
> Tsunade started having suspicions and then _chased after Pain herself_. That's how she was originally intending to deal with whatever he might have up his sleeve- _go stop him before he does it_.



You act as if Tendo immediately used CST. 

Nagato had all his paths fall back first, argued with Konan.. _then_ blew the city up. Thats _ample_ time for Tsunade off-panel chakra dump her reserves into the village 



FlamingRain said:


> She hadn't poured her Chakra into Katsuyu and had her surround everybody even as she was chasing him, as evidenced by her mark still being there and several of the characters being shown outside of Katsuyu just before the blast hit.
> 
> Yet, they were all protected in time.



Yeah it helps when Tendo is used CST several _km above the city_.... not from within <100m aimed 

Second no they were all protected unless you think _every single person_ Nagato revived with _Rinne Tensei_ was killed before CST? Anyone who was at ground zero died.... point blank



FlamingRain said:


> In a situation where Tsunade is participating in a fight with Nagato and has full knowledge this time around, CST will be blocked again.



He doesn't even need to use CST, as instant boss sized _Shinra Tensei_ would be quicker to execute and would allow him to selectively target her, once she's dead, then yes CST nukes them off the planet


----------



## Joakim3 (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What's B's best speed feat when he pushes off with his hand?



He used his hand to slow down (Nagato was already making contact with the ground by that time) and pushed off from his legs (as you can see the jump lines/dust)


----------



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> He used his hand to slow down (Nagato was already making contact with the ground by that time) and pushed off from his legs (as you can see the jump lines/dust)



B has two legs, so there would be two "jump lines" if he had used his legs. Instead, there is one. Furthermore, B's right arm, the one he used to "slow down," was hanging behind him as if he had used it to push off.


----------



## Joakim3 (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> B has two legs, so there would be two "jump lines" if he had used his legs. Instead, there is one. Furthermore, B's right arm, the one he used to "slow down," was hanging behind him as if he had used it to push off.



Assuming you are right (which you very well may be), Nagato was still carrying his own momentum (which was absurdly massive considering he blitzed Killer B _post_ Shinra Tensei) so either way you look at... it it was not a casually hit


----------



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

I wouldn't say it was casual. V2 B is still quite strong, regardless of whether or not he forms the Ox-Skull and gets a running start.

However, A is pretty powerful too, and weighted Raikage moving at v3 speeds (or Tsunade-boosted A moving at v4 speeds ) exerts more than enough force to obliterate Nagato's upper-body. [1]


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Oct 26, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> IMO the levitation just kind of goes with the technique.
> 
> 
> Nagato standing there would be suspicious, too, though...when the Kage have full knowledge.


Tendo never showed that he needed to charge up for a CST, and the only reason he levitated upward was some he can obliterate the entire village. Here, he specific opponents in front of him so levitation isn't needed. 

With that being said Nagato ends them all with CST.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I've never seen him create two cannons, though. Have you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now why would the Asura Lazer be exclusive to only one of his arms?


----------



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

The Path itself has one cannon. Without an indication that Nagato can form more than one cannon, the argument that he uses multiple cannons is not a strong one.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky still fighting the good fight 


Rocky said:


> Um, do you mean the AB Double Lariat?


Yeah, both were depicted at roughly the same level of speed and then Nagato took B's head on. He's going to do the same with A.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

Oh. No. 

In speed: B < A < v1 B < v1 A~v2 B < v2 A (< v3 A < v4 A).

If A lunged at Nagato with a Lariat, he'd do worse than B. If A successfully accelerated his fist into Nagato's face at the speed of his v2 lightning flicker, he'd win the fight. He'd win harder if Ōnoki or Tsunade made him faster (v3 & v4). Or if Ōnoki _and_ Tsunade made him faster (v5).

This is so fun.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Oh. No.
> 
> In speed: B < A < v1 B < v1 A~v2 B < v2 A (< v3 A < v4 A).
> 
> ...


So you ignored the part where Nagato is an apt sensor? 

Tsunade can't make A faster, that's just bullshit Tsunade fans made up that would give her something to do after seeing her increase the output of Jinton, while Oonoki can make him faster and their combo would injure Nagato, not kill him.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> So you ignored the part where Nagato is an apt sensor?



Chakra sensing doesn't enhance reflexes.



Ryuzaki said:


> Tsunade can't make A faster, that's just bullshit Tsunade fans made up that would give her something to do after seeing her increase the output of Jinton



I'm no Tsunade fan. 

Byakugō chakra pushes ninja past their usual limits. A cannot _usually_ move at v4 speeds, but Ōnoki cannot _usually_ obliterate an army of Susano'o with one Jinton, nor can Obito _usually_ move between  dimensions in a way that tires the goddess of chakra.



Ryuzaki said:


> while Oonoki can make him faster and their combo would injure Nagato, not kill him.



V3 Raikage circled _Madara_, punched a hole through his stage three Susano'o, and sent it flying into a boulder. 

He inverts Nagato's face.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Path itself has one cannon. Without an indication that Nagato can form more than one cannon, the argument that he uses multiple cannons is not a strong one.


Yeah, because regardless of the several other arms created by the Shurado, only one can use them…


----------



## FlamingRain (Oct 26, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> You act as if Tendo immediately used CST.


 
He didn't, _because_ he was building up the Chakra for it.

Do you really think that a technique that has an affect on Nagato's lifespan and shuts off the Deva Path's powers for quite a time can just be fired off in the blink of an eye?



> Nagato had all his paths fall back first, argued with Konan.. _then_ blew the city up. Thats _ample_ time for Tsunade off-panel chakra dump her reserves into the village



If you had actually read my post you'd know that doesn't matter, since I already pointed out the fact that Tsunade only poured her reserves into the giant slug _*after all of that*_, or else her mark would have been gone in the panel she's depicted in right before the blast and Katsuyu would have already been surrounding everyone.



> Yeah it helps when Tendo is used CST several _km above the city_.... not from within <100m aimed



It also helps when Tsunade has full knowledge and can just summon Katsuyu directly in front of the Kage.



> Second no they were all protected unless you think _every single person_ Nagato revived with _Rinne Tensei_ was killed before CST? Anyone who was at ground zero died.... point blank



Yes?

Why not? We were told that Tsunade used her Chakra to protect the village from the attack, not that she missed or failed to save a ton of people.

Rinne-Tensei is just a technique that allows souls to return to their physical bodies. It could only revive the people who had bodies for their souls to return to in the first place, and had Katsuyu not protected everybody they wouldn't have even had them.



> He doesn't even need to use CST, as instant boss sized _Shinra Tensei_ would be quicker to execute and would allow him to selectively target her, once she's dead, then yes CST nukes them off the planet



Well we're talking about CST.

But if it were instant, it wouldn't have mattered whether Deva was so high in the air or not when he blew up Konoha.

The Shinra Tensei that sent the boss summons flying was no bigger than any of the ones he used against Kakashi, which is why Deva ran up between them and only released it when they all lunged at him simultaneously (i.e.- got into a ST-able range).

He won't be selectively targeting her from 100 meters.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Chakra sensing doesn't enhance reflexes.


Yeah, but it's enough to give you the heads up, sensing dangerous chakra is one of those things. For instance, it gave Nagato the heads up when Itachi was about to use Amaterasu. 



Rocky said:


> I'm no Tsunade fan.
> 
> Byakugō chakra pushes ninja past their usual limits. A cannot _usually_ move at v4 speeds, but Ōnoki cannot _usually_ obliterate an army of Susano'o with one Jinton, nor can Obito _usually_ move between  dimensions in a way that tires the goddess of chakra.


The chakra itself only enhances the raw power and chakra pool, it's not going to make the Raikage infinitely more faster, rather just increase the efficacy of the raiton armor.



Rocky said:


> V3 Raikage circled _Madara_, punched a hole through his stage three Susano'o, and sent it flying into a boulder.


Going to need a scan Raikage, by himself, never came close to breaking Madara's Susano'o.



Rocky said:


> He inverts Nagato's face.


Yeah, highly unlikely given the shit they will be dealing with, shared-vision + sensing + rin'nengan is more than plenty to dodge and/or put up a ST/BT.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, but it's enough to give you the heads up, sensing dangerous chakra is one of those things. For instance, it gave Nagato the heads up when Itachi was about to use Amaterasu.



Nagato will sense A's ridiculous chakra and he may expect a blitz, but he can't do anything about it. He can't throw up a continuous defense like Susano'o to protect him. 



Ryuzaki said:


> it's not going to make the Raikage infinitely more faster, rather just increase the efficacy of the raiton armor.





The Raiton armor is what allows the Raikage to control such ridiculous speeds in the first place. When A amplifies his lightning armor to maximum power, he can move at what most typically refer to in the Battledome as "v2."

Tsunade can amplify A's armor _way _past its normal ceiling. I think this new, suped-up armor will allow Raikage to go even faster than Backpack Raikage (v3), which is why I'm calling it v4.

Either way, Nagato is dying. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Going to need a scan Raikage, by himself, never came close to breaking Madara's Susano'o.



V3 Raikage = Backpack Raikage in my terminology. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, highly unlikely given the shit they will be dealing with, shared-vision + sensing + rin'nengan is more than plenty to dodge and/or put up a ST/BT.



Nagato actually has to react. 

V3 punch is like a top three attack, speed-wise, outside of the god tier.

Nagato is not a speedster.

Nagato dies.


----------



## LostSelf (Oct 26, 2015)

I think Ei's shroud will inmediately disappear once it touches Preta.

If Jinton couldn't bypass it, his shroud won't either. Ei will punch Nagato, but he will get up inmediately. I do think the one that can fuck him here is Gaara. Gaara would be the one to put Nagato in a bad position for the others to strike as he's in a desert and is the only thing he can blow away but come back inmediately.


----------



## Bonly (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I've never seen him create two cannons, though. Have you?



I've never seen Tsunade walk on water, though. Have you? 



> It's unfortunate that Nagato would be too dead to absorb any of A's chakra.



It's unfortunate that Nagato won't be dead like you said as he'll brush it off just like he did to B who overpowered A 



> What's B's best speed feat when he pushes off with his hand?



Can you show me him pushing off forward with his hands?



> You don't seem to know what you're doing Bonly. Going in circles will not work.
> 
> If Nagato has a better reaction feat than Ōnoki's combination with A, then you should probably go ahead and link it. It would have saved you the trouble of having to bring up Ōnoki at all.



If you've read the pain arc and realize that everything each path did was due to Nagato when he can see everything he's seen then it's self explanatory.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

Bonly said:


> I've never seen Tsunade walk on water, though. Have you?



It's likely that Tsunade could walk on water.

I'm not sure what makes Nagato's ability to use 2-6 Asura Cannons simultaneously likely.



Bonly said:


> he'll brush it off just like he did to B who overpowered A



B never overpowered a v2 lightning flicker punch, let alone v3 or v4.



Bonly said:


> Can you show me him pushing off forward with his hands?



[


Bonly said:


> If you've read the pain arc and realize that everything each path did was due to Nagato when he can see everything he's seen then it's self explanatory.



I don't know which of Pain's feats are as good as reacting to v2 A, let alone v3 or v4.


----------



## Bonly (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It's likely that Tsunade could walk on water.
> 
> I'm not sure what makes Nagato's ability to use 2-6 Asura Cannons simultaneously likely.



Is there anything to suggest he can't make more then one canon because from what I remember nothing suggest such a thing?



> B never overpowered a v2 lightning flicker punch, let alone v3 or v4.



That's true as Base B only overpowered V2 A's lariat with his own 



> [



Read it but I'm iffy on it. We know Itachi has two legs yet I don't see two jump lines when he jumped off Nagato's bird and there's quite a few examples of this throughout the manga but I don't feel like looking through the manga to show some more examples so the whole speed lines point doesn't mean much to me. And his arm being behind him might be a case of him of him pushing off his arm or it can simple be a case of him leaving it hanging behind



> I don't know which of Pain's feats are as good as reacting to v2 A, let alone v3 or v4.



Nagato controls the paths so he see's everything they see along with what their summonings can see. Kakashi who is no slow poke got stabbed and got his Raikiri dodged at point blank range. This is when Nagato had to focus on Kakashi while seeing what the other five paths can do and controlling said paths which means looking for Naruto, kicking ass for the most part, asking questions, ect. while also seeing what the summonings do. Again that's when his attention is divide, think about how great his reactions are gonna be if he has his chakra sensing to help him and his attention isn't dividenot to mention a weakened tired Nagato could still react to a FRS that could cross multiple mountain ranges in less then a second. Do you think Onoki would be able to react to Kakashi's point blank Raikiri if he had his attention divided sic+ different ways?


----------



## Rocky (Oct 26, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Is there anything to suggest he can't make more then one canon because from what I remember nothing suggest such a thing?



It was never commented on. Where are you going with this?



Bonly said:


> That's true as Base B only overpowered V2 A's lariat with his own



Indeed. B overpowered Lariat, not a lightning flicker punch. 



Bonly said:


> Read it but I'm iffy on it.



You're not actually proving my views wrong, and I still find them more likely than yours. If you want to see it differently, go right ahead. I promise I won't stop you.



Bonly said:


> Do you think Onoki would be able to react to Kakashi's point blank Raikiri if he had his attention divided sic+ different ways?



React with what? Weight transfer? Sure, provided he was already touching the material he wanted to alter.


----------



## Kai (Oct 26, 2015)

Gokage win extreme difficulty.

Tsunade will be MVP in this fight, as her support role is critical against Nagato. Katsuyu infused with Sozo Saisei can keep her and the Kage alive from CST; IC Nagato with knowledge is smarter than that and, more often than not, won't use CST. Tsunade boosting Onoki's chakra with support of the other Kage can bust Chibaku Tensei, especially with full knowledge facilitating their physical reactions upon witnessing Chibaku Tensei form. Individually, they can counter Nagato's conventional path abilities. Ultimately, the Gokage use the combination ninjutsu they used against Madara, a technique in which Nagato has no counter for. They should be willing to use their full strength knowing full well of the Rinnegan's lore and powers.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 26, 2015)

> because Madara allowed them.



I dislike this view.  Zabuzu didn't "allow," the genin to free Kakashi from the water prison, anymore than Madara "allowed," the gokage to reunite.  Madara wouldn't have been angry that they reunited if he allowed it.


----------



## Bonly (Oct 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It was never commented on. Where are you going with this?



I'm just asking is there anything to suggest he can't make more then one canon because without anything in the DB or manga to say otherwise then I don't see any reason to think he can't.



> Indeed. B overpowered Lariat, not a lightning flicker punch.



Glad we agree and we know that B just gets stronger in V1 and stronger in V2 so it's should be as strong if not stronger the A's punch



> You're not actually proving my views wrong, and I still find them more likely than yours. If you want to see it differently, go right ahead. I promise I won't stop you.



I wasn't trying to prove it wrong as i'm iffy on it, I just pointed out that using jump lines isn't that good of an argument but we'll agree to disagree. 



> React with what? Weight transfer? Sure, provided he was already touching the material he wanted to alter.



What has he done that would suggest he could do such successfully in time if he has his attention spread across six+ different places and what not like Nagato was doing?


----------



## Joakim3 (Oct 27, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> He didn't, _because_ he was building up the Chakra for it.



Do you really think that a technique that has an affect on Nagato's lifespan and shuts off the Deva Path's powers for quite a time can just be fired off in the blink of an eye?[/QUOTE]

Nagato started sending chakra to Tendo after the paths dropped, he argues with Konan (something he's not going to do here) and CST is used literally the next panel

Nagato doesn't even need to send chakra to a external source to use CST when using it himself, making the technique _that much faster_. It is by _far_ the fastest executed technique of it's scale 



FlamingRain said:


> If you had actually read my post you'd know that doesn't matter, since I already pointed out the fact that Tsunade only poured her reserves into the giant slug _*after all of that*_, or else her mark would have been gone in the panel she's depicted in right before the blast and Katsuyu would have already been surrounding everyone.



Again she had to have summoned Katsuyu and divided before CST was used. In the same manner Shima & was summoning Naruto & the Gama Trio.

Tsunade was knocked unconscious and woke up wondering why her village didn't exist anymore.

If you think she was hit by the blast head on and managed to summon Katsuyu, have her divide to cover most of the village and chakra dump her entire reserves _all why being smeared into the ground but a city busting gravity wave_..... we are just going to have to agree to disagree




FlamingRain said:


> It also helps when Tsunade has full knowledge and can just summon Katsuyu directly in front of the Kage.



Which helps in what way... Katsuyu and the Kage are _still_ flung 30km into the horizon?

Now Nagato has distance, can formulate a plan on who and how to take them out and use the fact that he can locate them before they can do the same. The Kages now have to be on absolute max defense mode as Nagato has the element of surprise as they know he can find them before they can do the same (because full knowledge)

Good fucking luck Gokage 



FlamingRain said:


> Yes?
> 
> Why not? We were told that Tsunade used her Chakra to protect the village from the attack, not that she missed or failed to save a ton of people.
> 
> Rinne-Tensei is just a technique that allows souls to return to their physical bodies. It could only revive the people who had bodies for their souls to return to in the first place, and had Katsuyu not protected everybody they wouldn't have even had them.



Protecting a village from the attack =/= no casualties

Shikamaru was km's away from ground zero _and_ inside a mini-katsuyu, and still received serious injuries. Do you _honestly think_ anyone at ground zero who Tsunade may have missed survived _that_ explosion

Um Shinra Tensei doesn't vaporize bodies.... mangles beyond recognition absoultely 

So long as there was some semblance of a physical body, _Rinne Tensei_ can revive said person



FlamingRain said:


> Well we're talking about CST.
> 
> But if it were instant, it wouldn't have mattered whether Deva was so high in the air or not when he blew up Konoha.



It's activation is instant, the _actual gravity well is not_.

That being said, it still moves a ludicrously massive speed to the point no one in the village proceeded what happened, it was _over_



FlamingRain said:


> The Shinra Tensei that sent the boss summons flying was no bigger than any of the ones he used against Kakashi, which is why Deva ran up between them and only released it when they all lunged at him simultaneously (i.e.- got into a ST-able range).
> 
> He won't be selectively targeting her from 100 meters.





The frogs attacked him, he jumped to avoid said attack, attempted to attack Tendo mid air and he responded by oneshotting them all via a zip code changing _Shinra Tensei_ 

This is the AoE of the boss sized Shinra Tensei... the dirt cloud is the maximum effect of the ST, if you use the size of the boss summons it's AoE is at _minimum_ hundreds of meters

The ST the leveled Kakashi and company was _nowhere near_ that level of firepower to the one that curbed the frogs, it was on the same lvl of the one the KN6 tanked and redirect (at best)

Considering he did just that against Killer B from more than 2/3 the distance as an emaciated skeleton lacking his _real_ eyes.... Yes a healthy Nagato could selectively target her (and casually at that) from 100m.


----------



## Cormag (Oct 27, 2015)

gokage dismantle shitgato.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Oct 27, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> And you ought to take your own advice.
> 
> Tsunade started having suspicions and then _chased after Pain herself_. That's how she was originally intending to deal with whatever he might have up his sleeve- _go stop him before he does it_.
> 
> ...


 
Never mind, I didn't read the OP properly. It seems both have full knowledge, so yes, Tsunade should be able to anticipate the giant Shinra Tensei.

That said, in a no-holds-barred, no-knowledge scenario, I believe Nagato would easily wipe the floor with the Five Kage.

He still can, even with full knowledge. Can Tsunade summon Katsuyu and have her summon protect her peers before Nagato points his hands and launches a boss-summon-levelling Shinra Tensei?

Half the team gone in one fell swoop. Tsunade and the Fourth Raikage sure as hell aren't enough to deal with Nagato on their lonesome.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 27, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Tsunade and the Fourth Raikage sure as hell aren't enough to deal with Nagato on their lonesome.



Tsunade flows her Byakugō chakra into A's lightning mode, and he goes on to blitz Nagato in half with a v4 chop.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Oct 27, 2015)

To boost one's abilities to ultra-levels takes time, as Ōnoki showed

Time that allows Nagato to unleash another mega Shinra Tensei that, to be honest, I can't see Raikage taking multiple of.

Or Chibaku Tensei, which is an end-game for both Kage

Pick your poison.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 27, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> To boost one's abilities to ultra-levels takes time, as Ōnoki showed



Time granted to them by Nagato, who had just blown his load killing everyone else.  



ATastyMuffin said:


> Time that allows Nagato to unleash another mega Shinra Tensei that, to be honest, I can't see Raikage taking multiple of.



Shinra Tensei isn't going to do anything to Raikage. It does damage by quickly accelerating you. Raikage tanked being accelerated to lightspeed in base.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Oct 27, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Time granted to them by Nagato, who had just blown his load killing everyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> Shinra Tensei isn't going to do anything to Raikage. It does damage by quickly accelerating you. Raikage tanked being accelerated to lightspeed in base.



Blowing what load? Deva Path didn't show a single falter after throwing the toads to the next zip code; the _moment_ after he flattened them, he used Bansho Ten'in on Sage Naruto.

I can't tell if you're being serious with that Raikage comment.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm as serious as t0xeus is suspect. 

I don't see how Shinra Tensei is supposed to do anything. It isn't a shockwave. It forcibly accelerates you. Raikage was forcibly accelerated to the speed of light in base _and it didn't do shit to him. _ Good game Nagato.  

Anyway, I thought Nagato was using CST to set up this whole scenario. If he's just using a big Shinra Tensei, everyone should be fine like Team Stop Nagato was.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Oct 27, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm as serious as t0xeus is suspect.
> 
> I don't see how Shinra Tensei is supposed to do anything. It isn't a shockwave. It forcibly accelerates you. Raikage was forcibly accelerated to the speed of light in base _and it didn't do shit to him. _ Good game Nagato.
> 
> Anyway, I thought Nagato was using CST to set up this whole scenario. If he's just using a big Shinra Tensei, everyone should be fine like Team Stop Nagato was.



L O L

Tell me, if Superman threw Raikage at the speed of light, what do you think would happen?

We've no idea what happened to Itachi after that Shinra Tensei, he could have been obliterated and regenerated off-panel. Whereas only Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto and Bee managed to survive it; equating the former to three of the Kage in durability doesn't even need to be discussed lol,, and Bee isn't a slouch either.

He took Ay's V2 Lariat to his neck. I cannot say the same for Mei, Gaara, and Ōnoki lol.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 27, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Tell me, if you think Superman threw Raikage at the speed of light, do you think the latter would shrug it off?



Um, yes? Am I missing something? Tensō no Jutsu, aka Mabui's transfer technique, moves you at light speed. [1] Raikage tanked that. [2] 

Offensive Shinra Tensei is a super shitty version of Tensō no Jutsu. 



ATastyMuffin said:


> We've no idea what happened to Itachi after that Shinra Tensei, he could have been obliterated and regenerated off-panel.



I'm 99% certain this would have been mentioned if it happened. I cannot think of a single instance where a zombie regenerated off-panel without us ever knowing it had been destroyed.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Oct 27, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nagato will sense A's ridiculous chakra and he may expect a blitz, but he can't do anything about it. He can't throw up a continuous defense like Susano'o to protect him.


He was able to predict Amaterasu accurately enough to warn Naruto, I don't see him making incorrect assumptions about the Raikage, who has the hype of being one of the fastest shinobi in the world.



Rocky said:


> The Raiton armor is what allows the Raikage to control such ridiculous speeds in the first place. When A amplifies his lightning armor to maximum power, he can move at what most typically refer to in the Battledome as "v2."
> 
> Tsunade can amplify A's armor _way _past its normal ceiling. I think this new, suped-up armor will allow Raikage to go even faster than Backpack Raikage (v3), which is why I'm calling it v4.
> 
> Either way, Nagato is dying.


However, he hits a plateau which are his own observation and sensation.



Rocky said:


> Nagato actually has to react.
> 
> V3 punch is like a top three attack, speed-wise, outside of the god tier.
> 
> ...


Nagato has shared vision, abilities as a sensor and on top of that a dojutsu which can track and assess chakra as it is formed. Those tools are more than enough for Nagato to hold his own because even though the individual bodies may not be fast enough through both shared-vision and sensor abilities, Nagato can evade the blitz or activate Preta in time.


----------



## FlamingRain (Oct 27, 2015)

Joakim3 said:


> Nagato started sending chakra to Tendo after the paths dropped, he argues with Konan (something he's not going to do here) and CST is used literally the next panel



The Pains collapsing does not mean that was the point at which Nagato _started_ refocusing their Chakra. He should have been doing that as soon as they got out of the village, since he was already planning on using the Jutsu. If anything, that was the point at which Nagato _finished_ refocusing that Chakra, unless you got the impression that the guy just decided to go for a stroll in the clouds for no apparent reason before finally wondering later on what he was up there for again.



> Nagato doesn't even need to send chakra to a external source to use CST when using it himself, making the technique _that much faster_.



Yeah, but _"that much faster"_ than the process we saw in the Invasion of Pain, still isn't _that_ fast. Not fast enough that Tsunade wouldn't be able to call Katsuyu to defend her team anyway.



> Again she had to have summoned Katsuyu and divided before CST was used. In the same manner Shima & was summoning Naruto & the Gama Trio.
> 
> Tsunade was knocked unconscious and woke up wondering why her village didn't exist anymore.
> 
> If you think she was hit by the blast head on and managed to summon Katsuyu, have her divide to cover most of the village and chakra dump her entire reserves _all why being smeared into the ground but a city busting gravity wave_..... we are just going to have to agree to disagree



Were you reading the post _I made_, bro?

What is this about thinking Tsunade took the blast head-on and then summoned?

What she did was pour her Chakra into Katsuyu in time for the slug to reach everybody when she didn't have full knowledge of what was coming like she does here.

She also wasn't knocked unconscious, she had a ton of debris to dig through.



> Which helps in what way... Katsuyu and the Kage are _still_ flung 30km into the horizon?



Keeping the Kage from getting pasted by CST. The only thing I'm talking about is whether or not the Kage can survive an amplified Shinra Tensei, so...



> Protecting a village from the attack =/= no casualties



Look at what I said. We weren't told about any casualties as a result of Shinra Tensei. We were only told that Tsunade protected the village by pouring her Chakra into Katsuyu. Considering it from a narrative standpoint the person reading is supposed to go _"Phew, they're saved."_ not think "the Hokage just removed herself from the equation in her attempt to protect the villagers and all those people over there died anyway".

There _were_ casualties, as you point out citing Nagato's use of Rinne-Tensei, but since we know that there were a great number of casualties _before_ Katsuyu got to everyone in the village (and also that the only thing Nagato sent back where souls, not physical bodies) that doesn't in and of itself mean that CST was responsible for killing anyone.



> Shikamaru was km's away from ground zero _and_ inside a mini-katsuyu, and still received serious injuries.



How do you know where Shikamaru was?

And he only had a fractured leg. That isn't a serious injury.



> Do you _honestly think_ anyone at ground zero who Tsunade may have missed survived _that_ explosion



I don't think they were missed, since Katsuyu said she got to everyone.

What happened to anybody who may have been missed wouldn't detract from Katsuyu's ability to protect people from the blast anyway.



> Um Shinra Tensei doesn't vaporize bodies.... mangles beyond recognition absoultely
> 
> So long as there was some semblance of a physical body, _Rinne Tensei_ can revive said person



A Shinra Tensei that sends a village several hundred meters below ground-level would have turned them into ribbons and paste. Rinne Tensei can't negate that.



> It's activation is instant, the _actual gravity well is not_.



Okay.



> That being said, it still moves a ludicrously massive speed to the point no one in the village proceeded what happened, it was _over_



_It's gravity._ It wouldn't have even been visible _until_ it kicked something up (in that case, until it hit, since Pain was in midair), and if you turned around and saw the village suddenly collapse you'd wonder what happened, too.



> The frogs attacked him, he jumped to avoid said attack.



Exactly. He didn't just Shinra Tensei them right there when they first swung at him, he waited until all three had gotten close enough for him to strike at once before he smacked them with Shinra Tensei.

The scan you provided shows the dust of such gigantic creatures being launched backwards. It comes from the ground up, meaning it's not from the area-of-effect of the attack that started in mid-air.



> The ST the leveled Kakashi and company was _nowhere near_ that level of firepower to the one that curbed the frogs, it was on the same lvl of the one the KN6 tanked and redirect (at best)



I mentioned that it wasn't any _larger_. I didn't say it was no more powerful.



> Considering he did just that against Killer B



Tsunade doesn't start on the ground while the other Kage are standing atop a giant multplying dog like Naruto was.


----------



## LostSelf (Oct 27, 2015)

I do think ST was larger than the one on Kakashi. On the floor you can see the hole is way bigger. Also, i still don't see ST as just depending on the size of the target. That's never mentioned. Fukusaku only says that the more power Deva uses, the stronger it is. Not bigger, not larger, not reaching longer distances. Just stronger.

Meaning that the jutsu itself can do a lot of damage independently on size.

My apologies if i understood wrong.


----------



## Joakim3 (Oct 27, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The Pains collapsing does not mean that was the point at which Nagato _started_ refocusing their Chakra. He should have been doing that as soon as they got out of the village, since he was already planning on using the Jutsu. If anything, that was the point at which Nagato _finished_ refocusing that Chakra, unless you got the impression that the guy just decided to go for a stroll in the clouds for no apparent reason before finally wondering later on what he was up there for again.



We don't know the minimum chakra requirement to keep a path active. _All the paths_ dropping at once rather than one by one, gives weight to the argument that Nagato started funneling _all_ available chakra at that moment. Even _if_ your right, that doesn't help the Gokage as negate can still fight while building up chakra for CST

Even assuming your right, the _minimum time_ Nagato couldn't use another path would be the time frame of the paths dropping to the justu's usage (all of which happened before Shima could summon Naruto & company)

Or Nagato simply kept Tendo up there to avoid it being shot down by the village wide manhunt for it?



FlamingRain said:


> Yeah, but _"that much faster"_ than the process we saw in the Invasion of Pain, still isn't _that_ fast. Not fast enough that Tsunade wouldn't be able to call Katsuyu to defend her team anyway.



Your entire argument stems on the fact that Tsunade can somehow predict Nagato using CST and summing Katsuyu in advance. Theres no visual que for it's initiation. Nagato isn't going to rant about overwhelming power and ominously fly into the air.



FlamingRain said:


> Were you reading the post _I made_, bro?



probably not



FlamingRain said:


> What is this about thinking Tsunade took the blast head-on and then summoned?
> 
> What she did was pour her Chakra into Katsuyu in time for the slug to reach everybody when she didn't have full knowledge of what was coming like she does here.
> 
> She also wasn't knocked unconscious, she had a ton of debris to dig through.



Except this time Katsuyu doesn't _start_ on the field



FlamingRain said:


> Keeping the Kage from getting pasted by CST. The only thing I'm talking about is whether or not the Kage can survive an amplified Shinra Tensei, so...



Yeah they can if Tsunade has Katsuyu out before Nagato uses CST... which is not a guarantee 



FlamingRain said:


> Look at what I said. We weren't told about any casualties as a result of Shinra Tensei. We were only told that Tsunade protected the village by pouring her Chakra into Katsuyu. Considering it from a narrative standpoint the person reading is supposed to go _"Phew, they're saved."_ not think "the Hokage just removed herself from the equation in her attempt to protect the villagers and all those people over there died anyway".



Do we have to be told about casualties for us to assume their where? Nagato nuked a village off the face of the earth. Logic would dictate Tsunade could not _save every single last person_ especially when substantial people weren't covered literally right before it's usage



FlamingRain said:


> There _were_ casualties, as you point out citing Nagato's use of Rinne-Tensei, but since we know that there were a great number of casualties _before_ Katsuyu got to everyone in the village (and also that the only thing Nagato sent back where souls, not physical bodies) that doesn't in and of itself mean that CST was responsible for killing anyone.



Yes because these people in the foreground at ground zero with Katsuyu.... survived that? Come on man

Sure it's not concrete evidence, but unless you think Nagato was _that_ efficient at killing everyone via a summon or a paths direct encounter, it's by no means a solid argument 

_Rinne Tensei_ recreated the body of Madara from _ash_ and restored his soul in said body... we have zero idea on what the limits the technique has or doesn't have



FlamingRain said:


> How do you know where Shikamaru was?
> 
> And he only had a fractured leg. That isn't a serious injury.



_All_ the survivours where shown to be on the craters outer edge where the debris was pushed up agains Konoha's wall



FlamingRain said:


> I don't think they were missed, since Katsuyu said she got to everyone.
> 
> What happened to anybody who may have been missed wouldn't detract from Katsuyu's ability to protect people from the blast anyway.



... and how many times have people/entities say one thing and thing are shown different.

The point I'm making is that if Tsunade doesn't not have Katsuyu up before Nagato thinks of using CST, _everyone_ dies.



FlamingRain said:


> A Shinra Tensei that sends a village several hundred meters below ground-level would have turned them into ribbons and paste. Rinne Tensei can't negate that.



Sure... 

and we saw _Rinne Tensei_ create Madara's body out of _ash_.

Madara's real body would have been a _skeleton_ had Akatsuki stayed on track and Nagato been the one to revive him, so i'd think it's fair play to say _Rinne Tensei_ supersedes any physical damage done to the revived body



FlamingRain said:


> Exactly. He didn't just Shinra Tensei them right there when they first swung at him, he waited until all three had gotten close enough for him to strike at once before he smacked them with Shinra Tensei.
> 
> The scan you provided shows the dust of such gigantic creatures being launched backwards. It comes from the ground up, meaning it's not from the area-of-effect of the attack that started in mid-air.



Tendo was on cool down. It had literally just finished smearing SM Naruto across the ground and the Toads jumped at the opertunity. 

Tendo's only option was to jump up to avoid being buttered by a 50ft tanto sword at which point the cool down was over and the frogs were in the wort possible place at the worst possible time

You see where there toads dust trail ends as it followed there trajectory, the inner/outer circle is the AoE of that particular ST



FlamingRain said:


> I mentioned that it wasn't any _larger_. I didn't say it was no more powerful.



Shinra Tensei is a very linear technique, chakra behind it, the more power, the bigger the AoE.

Nagato has _never shown_ the ability to compress the AoE of _Shinra Tensei_ to make it more powerful.



FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade doesn't start on the ground while the other Kage are standing atop a giant multplying dog like Naruto was.



They were all on top of the tree canopy. 

Nagato ST'd them and reach Killer B before he made contact with the ground? granted it wasn't 100m, but it wasn't 15m either, disregarding the fact he was in his post _Rinne Tensei_ state


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 29, 2015)

Sarry said:


> If the Gokage are fighting properly as a team, then Nagato has no chance even with his eye power.
> If the Gokage are fighting like they did when Madara was toying with them, Nagato will win.
> 
> 
> Nagato's best chance is to separate the Gokage and play on their weaknesses. The rinnengan is very potent, but like any other power, it can be defeated.





Rocky said:


> Justu that Nagato can't use.



CT is usable by Nagato. Now it is extremely lolworthy you think Madara level CT followed by two further powers are needed by the Gokage.
Considering one Preta Path shut them all down to the point where they used a combo which ST can fodderise.



> Okay. Nagato still gets crushed without Susano'o.



Cute. 

However you're probably one of the few people who still thinks the Gokage can stand up to the Rinnegan.

Preta forces CQC; Asura and Deva stomp them when they try. Face it, bro. The Gokage lose this. If Nagato uses Kage Bunshins, or any sort of clones for that matter. They are screwed.
Especially as, unlike Madara, Nagato has no issues using the Rinnegan more often.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 29, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Now it is extremely lolworthy



You haven't earned the right to say that.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> However you're probably one of the few people who still thinks the Gokage can stand up to the Rinnegan.



It is indeed a shame that so few people have gotten it right.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Preta forces CQC; Asura and Deva stomp them when they try.



Tsunade baits Shinra Tensei and v3 Raikage tears Nagato in half during the interval.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You haven't earned the right to say that.



I've seen your points: they defo are.



> It is indeed a shame that so few people have gotten it right.



Sure, if they choose to ignore what the manga says, then yeah: they got it right.



> Tsunade baits Shinra Tensei and v3 Raikage tears Nagato in half during the interval.



That is just stupid. That is a proper reply? 

Nagato is really going to focus on one foe when he's fighting five, just so Rocky can say Tsunade somehow baits Shinra Tensei (from a guy who has more options like slicing her a million ways with Asura or taking her soul) to allow A to tear him in half. 

For a guy who is one of the "few people have gotten it right", you make arguments a lot like the few people have gotten it wrong.


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## LostSelf (Oct 29, 2015)

Rocky vs the world.


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> just so Rocky can say Tsunade somehow baits Shinra Tensei (from a guy who has more options like slicing her a million ways with Asura or taking her soul).



Kyūkon can't really be applied as a defense to one of Byakugō Tsunade's punches, and Shuradō isn't going to stop someone who doesn't mind being shredded or stabbed.[1][2]

Tsunade baits Shinra Tensei and provides an opening for Raikge & Ōnoki to tear him in half with a v3 punch. The end.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kyūkon can't really be applied as a defense to one of Byakugō Tsunade's punches, and Shuradō isn't going to stop someone who doesn't mind being shredded or stabbed.[1][2]
> 
> Tsunade baits Shinra Tensei and provides an opening for Raikge & Ōnoki to tear him in half with a v3 punch. The end.



Go in, tell me if Tsunade is going to have limbs chopped off, she will be able to fight.  Would've been useful when she actually was chopped in half.
There's still the matter of if she is stopped, similar to how Madara's Susanoo swords were stuck in her, her soul would be extracred. 

Again, Rocky chooses to ignore a lot just so he can say Tsunade "baits" ST from someone who has other options just so he can say A and Oonoki can blast through. 

I'm beginning to think you don't have that much of an argument. I may follow suit with the everyone else who said you're wrong since you're obviously set on one outcome. Well, I'll judge from the next reply.


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2015)

Nagato has no other options against Tsunade. He can't cut her limbs off. You tell me which feats of his suggest he's doing that to a close quarters specialist durable enough to survive lightspeed travel and strong enough to manhandle Susano'o. 

So, once Shinra Tensei is used, v3 Raikage swoops in and dropkicks Nagato's head out of his anus. The. End.


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## LostSelf (Oct 29, 2015)

I think a laser/missil blast can send her backwards or previously stop her, or summon a rhino/bull to force her to deal with it. I don't see Tsunade by herself being able to bait ST, IMO.


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2015)

She ducks under/jumps over the laser, catches the missile and throws it back at Nagato, or [panels] whatever creature Nagato decides to summon (or knocks it to the side if it's Cerberus).


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 29, 2015)

Gokage will win this. They were trolling Edo Madara and only lost due to powers that stemmed from the EMS and Hashirama's Cells (providing Mokuton). Between themselves as a whole, the Gokage are stronger than Jiraiya, collectively as a team, so they should be able to pull a win here.

Preta Path - Tsunade and Raikage use physical attacks to negate this path
Animal Path - Gaara's sand / Katsuyu
Deva Path - can't do anything Tsunade can't heal them from or help tank via Katsuyu
Asura Path - featless (as in the Asura laser people make so much noise about)
Naraka Path - won't work when there is a team
Human Path - same as Naraka

Honestly Mei isnt even needed
Nagato is basically Pain's paths all in one. Jiraiya has the ability to defeat that by virtue of Nagato's own words and Tsunade is more or less Jiraiya's equal. Whatever difference in power Nagato has, is equalised by Onoki. Gaara and Raikage will be useful here. Honestly, Mei can sit in a bikini and sip on a glass of wine while the others take care of business.


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## LostSelf (Oct 29, 2015)

I think the laser is a bit harder to dodge than that. Considering Nagato can  move his arm while shooting (grabbing a missil will stop her to be hit by the others, unless Nagato just shoots one). Also, Tsunade moves like leaping. If she's caught mid-leap, she might not be able to dodge. I know she can stomp either summon (barring maybe Cerberus) but that'd just give Nagato enough time to still make distance.

Even then, Nagato should just levitate and fight from above.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 29, 2015)

If we are not being misogynists and/or down players, Tsunade should be able to take this on he own, and in worst case scenario, help from Raikage and/or Tsuchikage. The others aren't necessary.

Raikage = Killer B
Onoki >>> KCM Naruto
Tsunade = Itachi (in my opinion, because i don't suffer from fav. character syndrome and I'm not a misogynist)


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 29, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I think the laser is a bit harder to dodge than that. Considering Nagato can  move his arm while shooting (grabbing a missil will stop her to be hit by the others, unless Nagato just shoots one). Also, Tsunade moves like leaping. If she's caught mid-leap, she might not be able to dodge. I know she can stomp either summon (barring maybe Cerberus) but that'd just give Nagato enough time to still make distance.
> 
> Even then, Nagato should just levitate and fight from above.


Laser has no feats from Nagato
If I'm wrong, please provide me with a scan or a link


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nagato has no other options against Tsunade. He can't cut her limbs off. You tell me which feats of his suggest he's doing that to a close quarters specialist durable enough to survive lightspeed travel and strong enough to manhandle Susano'o.



Demon Realm's sharp objects are actually blunt? The databook lied when it said Demon Realm can bring a range of weapons? Now since we know the truth, Demon Realm will have no problem handling Tsunade. Even if it pins her down, her soul is there for the taking.

A CQC specialist will always be owned by Shinra Tensei. 



> So, once Shinra Tensei is used, v3 Raikage swoops in and dropkicks Nagato's head out of his anus. The. End.



Only in a world where Nagato has no other options.

Now Rocky, m'boy. You're making it look like this is the only way the Gokage can win. That is the Gokage can only beat Rinnegan users who only believe they have Shinra Tensei and no other jutsu.
What's more you seem to ignore the probability that Nagato will just use an omnidirectional ST, since he's facing 5 foes.

However till you have any plausible scenarios that could actually happen, not ones which involve us ignoring a shit ton of manga and databook facts, we're done here. Your lack of a proper argument will be taken as a concession on your part.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 29, 2015)

You say levitate, but Onoki can fly, and so can Gaara and what ever height they get to can be matched by Katsuyu who is bigger than Gamabunta slightly, and Bunta = a Bijuu in size


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 29, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Demon Realm's sharp objects are actually blunt? The databook lied when it said Demon Realm can bring a range of weapons? Now since we know the truth, Demon Realm will have no problem handling Tsunade. Even if it pins her down, her soul is there for the taking.
> 
> A CQC specialist will always be owned by Shinra Tensei.
> 
> ...


Demon realm has nothing sharper than Kusanagi (diamond cutter) and Tsunade had no major problems with it. I doubt Demon Realm > Madara's Susanoo.

Tsunade can deal with Asura Path on a bad hair day. She tanked Deva's strongest technique when she was almost out of chakra. Katsuyu > Animal Path as a whole. The other paths are useless since Tsunade is physical so ignores Preta, and Soul Rip (Human)/Tongue Snatch (Naraka) isn't happening when there are four other Kages here as well to help whoever is about to get killed.

Tsunade can take this with minimal input from the other Kages. Thats not so impossible considering Jiraiya, another Sannin (who Tsunade once brought close to death, and outperformed in the Sannin fight) could probably take care of Nagato. What Jiraiya has that she lacks is made up for by the other Kages. Only someone who downplays the Sannin can say otherwise..


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## LostSelf (Oct 29, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> If we are not being misogynists and/or down players, *Tsunade should be able to take this on he own*, and in worst case scenario, help from Raikage and/or Tsuchikage. The others aren't necessary.
> 
> Raikage = Killer B
> Onoki >>> KCM Naruto
> Tsunade = Itachi (in my opinion, because i don't suffer from fav. character syndrome and I'm not a misogynist)



Not even in her wildest dreams.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Laser has no feats from Nagato
> If I'm wrong, please provide me with a scan or a link



What feat the laser should have? . Or are you implying Asura can use a laser but Nagato can't?


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I think the laser is a bit harder to dodge than that. Considering Nagato can  move his arm while shooting (grabbing a missil will stop her to be hit by the others, unless Nagato just shoots one). Also, Tsunade moves like leaping. If she's caught mid-leap, she might not be able to dodge. I know she can stomp either summon (barring maybe Cerberus) but that'd just give Nagato enough time to still make distance.
> 
> Even then, Nagato should just levitate and fight from above.



The laser has no speeds feats because Nagato decided to hold B in place. Tsunade is trained in anticipation and evasion. She gets the benefit of the doubt.

If Nagato shoots a barrage of missiles, she can either dodge them too or call for Gaara to intercept them with Rendan Sand Drizzle.  

If Nagato summons only in an attempt to stall for time, Ōnoki can mess with his footing with Chidōkaku, giving Tsunade time to regain distance.

If Nagato levitates away, Gaara can help the kages maneuver in the air.

I have the abilities of five kage to work with here. You are not going to win this argument.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 29, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Demon realm has nothing sharper than Kusanagi (diamond cutter) and Tsunade had no major problems with it. I doubt Demon Realm > Madara's Susanoo.



You're telling me that you need Kusanagi to cut through Tsunade?  Wow, damn. I guess all those sharp objects Demon Realm was going to use to cut up Tsunade weren't sharp enough. 

Jokes aside Demon Realm has a range of weapons that can deal with her, whether it is taking her head with a laser or just cutting off her limbs. If you think Tsunade is so durable that you need Susanoo or Kusanagi to cut her, go re-read the manga and find something meaningful to suggest such.



> Tsunade can deal with Asura Path on a bad hair day. She tanked Deva's strongest technique when she was almost out of chakra. Katsuyu > Animal Path as a whole. The other paths are useless since Tsunade is physical so ignores Preta, and Soul Rip (Human)/Tongue Snatch (Naraka) isn't happening when there are four other Kages here as well to help whoever is about to get killed.



Congrats she can barely tank a powerful ST which comes from a distanced Tendo that comes from a chakra deprived Nagato. She'd be finished without her milotic regeneration here. 

Other Paths useless, yet you make very bad arguments. Tsunade can deal with Asura Path, yet like Rocky, you have no plausible reason for why. Demon Realm will school her. 
Being physical won't ignore Preta: Nagato can absorb chakra from Tsunade then just kill her with her regeneration being effectively negated. 
Soul rip will happen if Tsunade is stupid enough to jump ahead and try to "bait" Shinra Tensei. Plus all Nagato has to do is grap and jump, simple. 

If the Kage try Rocky's strategy: Tsunade jumps in to "bait" Shinra Tensei while all the others wait till she has, she'll be owned by a combo of Demon Realm and Human Realm.
Other threats will be sensed and taken care of by an omni-ST or the relevant Demon Path powers- Animal Path will be a good diversion too. 

The Gokage are no match for the Rinnegan.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 29, 2015)

TBH Nagato can't deal with this amount of versatility. 
With full knowledge, the kage can counter his big moves like CT and CST.

Mei tsunade and Gaara can force him on the defensive while Onoki + A blindside him and break his windpipe with an elbow. 
More one sided than what people think.


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## LostSelf (Oct 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The laser has no speeds feats because Nagato decided to hold B in place. Tsunade is trained in anticipation and evasion. She gets the benefit of the doubt.



Tsunade has no evasion feats either. Holding Bee in place doesn't mean the laser was too slow to hit somebody. The laser in one panel was shown reaching and destroying multiple buildings. It's AoE is too huge for Tsunade to dodge and Gaara to effectively block.



> If Nagato shoots a barrage of missiles, she can either dodge them too or call for Gaara to intercept them with Rendan Sand Drizzle.



Gaara will intercept, blocking her (and the others) field's of vision, allowing Nagato for more counter attack.



> If Nagato summons only in an attempt to stall for time, Ōnoki can mess with his footing with Chidōkaku, giving Tsunade time to regain distance.



Is Onoki close too? Because if the 5 are close, ST hits them and badly injure/kills some of them. If they're keeping distance, they are (or at least Onoki) hardly getting in the other's way to help. Onoki's not getting close to Nagato without being noticed. And getting close means being beheaded or killed by Asura. You know, having the attention divided by 6 is something Nagato exceeds at .



> If Nagato levitates away, Gaara can help the kages maneuver in the air.



Maneuver in the air won't do much. Gaara's sand is not fast enough to pressure Nagato. In the air, only Onoki and Ei combo is what Nagato needs to fear.



> I have the abilities of five kage to work with here. You are not going to win this argument.



Do not be so sure. The Gokage with knowledge won't dare to face Shinra targetting Nagato at the same time, or being remotely close to each other as to help the other when Nagato counter attacks. Nagato can counter them this way, and if they're too close to each other, expect Onoki, Gaara and Mei to die by a powerful blast and Ei and Tsunade being stomped afterwards.

I can accept the Gokage beating Nagato (seriously, it's not like it's crazy to say it). But it's not as simple like you're saying ,


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 29, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Tsunade has no evasion feats either. Holding Bee in place doesn't mean the laser was too slow to hit somebody. The laser in one panel was shown reaching and destroying multiple buildings. It's AoE is too huge for Tsunade to dodge and Gaara to effectively block.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tsunade has evasion AND tanking feats

What counter attack?

Tsunade heals anyone that gets hit by ST. 

Gaara has shown speed when flying on sand cloud whereas i have never seen Nagato flying before

Gaara and Mei arent dying when Tsunade and Katsuyu are around

Tsunade can take this alone with maybe a little input from the others.


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## Rocky (Oct 29, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Holding Bee in place doesn't mean the laser was too slow to hit somebody.



I didn't say that. I said Tsunade _"gets the benefit of the doubt_," 'cause she has hype in evasion while the laser has a big, fat "0" in speed hype. If you think it's fast enough to hit her, explain why. 



LostSelf said:


> Gaara will intercept, blocking her (and the others) field's of vision, allowing Nagato for more counter attack.



Tsunade'd keep running towards where Nagato was, right through the smoke. Nagato then has to counter with Shinra Tensei. 



LostSelf said:


> Is Onoki close too?



The others are scattered, assisting when necessary with ranged techniques. Nagato's focus will be not on them, but on the virtually un-killable tank sprinting at him.



LostSelf said:


> Maneuver in the air won't do much. Gaara's sand is not fast enough to pressure Nagato.



It's plenty fast enough to carry Tsunade towards Nagato. It isn't as if Nagato's some speed demon in the air. 



LostSelf said:


> The Gokage with knowledge won't dare to face Shinra targetting Nagato at the same time, or being remotely close to each other as to help the other when Nagato counter attacks.



This is why Tsunade's batting out Shinra Tensei.

In a worse-case, highly unlikely scenario where everyone dies but Tsunade & A, it's v4 Lariat time.


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## LostSelf (Oct 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I didn't say that. I said Tsunade _"gets the benefit of the doubt_," 'cause she has hype in evasion while the laser has a big, fat "0" in speed hype. If you think it's fast enough to hit her, explain why.



Well, the one panel after Asura activated it, several buildings where destroyed (1)(2). Even if the laser were too slow to hit Tsunade (something i doubt, considering she's not especially fast), the AoE would cause chaos, will surely hit her and she won't find Nagato in all of this.



> Tsunade'd keep running towards where Nagato was, right through the smoke. Nagato then has to counter with Shinra Tensei.



Why would he? Nagato used Shunshin to get behind Killer Bee before he even rubbed the floor. And that was cripple, and kept up with Kakashi with his atention divided. He just dodge her jumping, or put a blade through her skull (if we go with the full knowledge thing). Tsunade's speed is not something Nagato can't handle to the point of only countering her with ST. And considering he senses, he will always know where each kage is.



> The others are scattered, assisting when necessary with ranged techniques. Nagato's focus will be not on them, but on the virtually un-killable tank sprinting at him.


Scatterted, but i pressume that close enough to intervene in case? In that case, they're not safe from a powered up Shinra Tensei that can put the fight in Nagato's favor. And Nagato can just shoot it and dodge Tsunade via levitating (like he jumped several times the height of a boss summon with a single jump/levitation with Deva Path. Tsunade ain't catching him.



> It's plenty fast enough to carry Tsunade towards Nagato. It isn't as if Nagato's some speed demon in the air.



Well, like i said, put Katsuyu as an example. She's as tall as the Hokage building. Nagato levitated fast enough so far above Konoha that he could see it entirely and quite small. Gaara's sand has never done such a thing that fast. 



> This is why Tsunade's batting out Shinra Tensei.



How would she do that?



> In a worse-case, highly unlikely scenario where everyone dies but Tsunade & A, it's v4 Lariat time.



 I wouldn't call unlikely being hit by a invisible and powerful blast they cannot expect and die by it.
Giving Ei more chakra might not make him faster. Either way, with the conmotion (kages dead after powerful Shinra Tensei, Ei and Tsunade needing to return to the battlefield, etc.) Nagato has enough time to go invisible and play with them .

It's hard for me to see Nagato winning, as is hard for me to see Gokage winning with this conditions, however, if Nagato loses, i think it will be because of Ei. I don't see Tsunade pressuring him, though.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 29, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> TBH Nagato can't deal with this amount of versatility.
> With full knowledge, the kage can counter his big moves like CT and CST.
> 
> Mei tsunade and Gaara can force him on the defensive while Onoki + A blindside him and break his windpipe with an elbow.
> More one sided than what people think.


my point exactly


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 29, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> TBH Nagato can't deal with this amount of versatility.
> With full knowledge, the kage can counter his big moves like CT and CST.
> 
> Mei tsunade and Gaara can force him on the defensive while Onoki + A blindside him and break his windpipe with an elbow.
> More one sided than what people think.



A versatile eye can't deal with the Kage. 
I like how you read it as full knowledge for just the Kage. 

Though what you miss is that full knowledge for Nagato means he knows very well that the Kage's options become limited when he uses Preta Path. CST, there is no countering: it is a jutsu which will always catch them off guard. CT is a game ender if Oonoki dies. 

It one sided as you say only if we choose to ignore the Rinnegan's powers.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 29, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> my point exactly


Your going to blindside a man who not only shares visions with multiple other summonings, including one that multiplies making for an even greater field of vision, but also has proficient sensory prowess. Good joke…

He can one shot the majority of them with a Boss-size ST that even from a Deva path who previously had fought beforehand and leveled a village with a CST and was getting chakra processed to him by an emaciated Nagato who was relatively far away was able to sent 3 massive toads flying and rendered them ineffective. This, in case you didn't notice is a healthy Bloodlusted Nagato who won't only be far more powerful and potent than that variant of Tendo, but also won't be as merciful as to use his variant of the Boss-size ST, but rather a CST right off the bat that sends the Gokage to the next world.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 29, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> my point exactly


Shared Vision + Sensing > Gokage.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 29, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Your going to blindside a man who not only shares visions with multiple other summonings, including one that multiplies making for an even greater field of vision, but also has proficient sensory prowess. Good joke?
> 
> He can one shot the majority of them with a Boss-size ST that even from a Deva path who previously had fought beforehand and leveled a village with a CST and was getting chakra processed to him by an emaciated Nagato who was relatively far away was able to sent 3 massive toads flying and rendered them ineffective. This, in case you didn't notice is a healthy Bloodlusted Nagato who won't only be far more powerful and potent than that variant of Tendo, but also won't be as merciful as to use his variant of the Boss-size ST, but rather a CST right off the bat that sends the Gokage to the next world.


Katsuyu kills animal path summonings and no one will die from CST
Tsunade can tank
A can tank
Onoki can hide in a golem
Gaara has sand
Maybe Mei dies
But Tsunade heals everyone afterwards

When has any form of Shinra Tensei ever killed someone?


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 29, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> *Katsuyu kills animal path summonings and no one will die from CST*
> Tsunade can tank
> A can tank
> Onoki can hide in a golem
> ...


Katsuyu never used for offensive purposes not even when fighting against Madara's 5 Susano'o and you expect it to kill Animal Path? 

Plus, Nagato can summon them back since he is the original summoner to begin with.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 29, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Shared Vision + Sensing > Gokage.


Raikages speed + Katsuyus AOE > Nagato?

*How is mega Jinton from Tsunade+Onoki countered? Madara got out of the whole sequence because of PS. Shinra Tenseis can't be spammed, especially the stronger variants.*


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 29, 2015)

Going by some of what I read here, those arguing for the Gokage hinge on ignoring a lot of Rinnegan powers, their effects and capabilities, while also counting on PIS on Nagato's part such as just wasting a powerful jutsu with a time limit when he has other options. Or ignoring the fact they were in a bind due to Preta Path... which meant CQC was the only option but then there's other powers that deal with CQC.

Tbh when a stance involved ignoring one party's capabilities to the point of underestimating them (pretending Nagato's only real options are Tendo powers) and overestimating the others... it will make you think Nagato has this win solidly simply because the opposition has no convincing way to tell us how he's beaten. The best we get are things like "Tsunade can handle Demon Realm powers" (no explanation as to how) or "Raikage will slice Nagato in half" (ignoring ST).


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 29, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Raikages speed + Katsuyus AOE > Nagato?
> 
> *How is mega Jinton from Tsunade+Onoki countered? Madara got out of the whole sequence because of PS. Shinra Tenseis can't be spammed, especially the stronger variants.*



Nagato uses Preta Path to absorb it or he absorbs it himself. Unlike Madara, he doesn't rely on clones and wouldn't have to worry about absorption time being slowed.

Also, that rule about ST not being spammed only applies to the Paths, for the purposes of the actual Rin'negan user, it doesn't matter.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 29, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Katsuyu never used for offensive purposes not even when fighting against Madara's 5 Susano'o and you expect it to kill Animal Path?
> 
> Plus, Nagato can summon them back since he is the original summoner to begin with.


Katsyu not being used was PIS/CIS. The plot restricted it because its acid would melt Susanoo and solo the clones. You know Kishi likes to make Sannin and women look weak then make Uchiha look unbeatable


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 29, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Going by some of what I read here, those arguing for the Gokage hinge on ignoring a lot of Rinnegan powers, their effects and capabilities, while also counting on PIS on Nagato's part such as just wasting a powerful jutsu with a time limit when he has other options. Or ignoring the fact they were in a bind due to Preta Path... which meant CQC was the only option but then there's other powers that deal with CQC.
> 
> Tbh when a stance involved ignoring one party's capabilities to the point of underestimating them (pretending Nagato's only real options are Tendo powers) and overestimating the others... it will make you think Nagato has this win solidly simply because the opposition has no convincing way to tell us how he's beaten. The best we get are things like "Tsunade can handle Demon Realm powers" (no explanation as to how) or "Raikage will slice Nagato in half" (ignoring ST).


*But at the end of the day Nagato/Pain can be beaten by jiraiya. Tsunade is on the same tier as Jiraiya and the other kages aren't far off that tier.*


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 29, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Katsuyu never used for offensive purposes not even when fighting against Madara's 5 Susano'o and you expect it to kill Animal Path?
> 
> Plus, Nagato can summon them back since he is the original summoner to begin with.


Gamaken handled Animal Path
Gamaken < Gamabunta <<<<< Part 1 gamabunta (you know his size got nerfed in part 2 for the plot to make the doujtusu users look stronger when really shukaku is the same size as Bunta and he is massive) = Katsuyu


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 29, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Katsuyu kills animal path summonings and no one will die from CST



Here is an example of a poster choosing to ignore manga facts. Let Katsuyu make dozens of copies of the Cerberus summon just 'cause Katsuyu can kill them. 



> Tsunade can tank
> A can tank



Tsunade barely held on against a CST coming from Tendo who was far from a chakra deprived Nagato as his source of chakra. 

A might be able to tank, based on what we saw from B. 



> Onoki can hide in a golem



The golem will be fodderised like all other jutsu which come into contact with ST.



> Gaara has sand



Which too becomes useless. 



> Maybe Mei dies



Yes, the woman with no super durability _maybe_ dies. 



> But Tsunade heals everyone afterwards



Because after sensing survivors, Nagato will just let her do so. 



> When has any form of Shinra Tensei ever killed someone?



Super tanks like Naruto and Bee survived... but Edo Tensei Itachi turned into dust. Itachi in real life would've died. 

Also tell me you think characters like Oonoki, Gaara and Mei have the bodies to handle a repulsion force which was described as gravity's direct opposite.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 29, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> *But at the end of the day Nagato/Pain can be beaten by jiraiya. Tsunade is on the same tier as Jiraiya and the other kages aren't far off that tier.*



Sure Jiraiya who fought Pain while Nagato didn't know about the Genjutsu who knew about Nagato. 

A crippled mindless Nagato actually beat KCM Naruto who far outranks SM Naruto who is beyond Minato's level. Minato is far beyond Jiraiya's tier. So by your logic a prime Nagato would be out of their level. 

Oh and a cripple Nagato turned a Edo Itachi into dust. Edo Itachi, whom I suspect you'll say is above Jiraiya and the Gokage.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 29, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Gamaken handled Animal Path
> Gamaken < Gamabunta <<<<< Part 1 gamabunta (you know his size got nerfed in part 2 for the plot to make the doujtusu users look stronger when really shukaku is the same size as Bunta and he is massive) = Katsuyu



Pain has about 10 different summons all together, if we include the ones he fought with Jiraiya and then whatever he used in Konoha. I don't see Katsuyu making the difference at all, the best she can do is cancel out Cerberus since Cerberus will just multiply infinitely. That still leaves 9 other summons for which the kage will have their hands full. 

After that, they have to fight Six Paths of Pain and then they get served by Nagato, that's far too much for them to do, both Gaara and Mei will be out of juice by then, since they seem to have the shittiest stamina. Even Oonoki, the  most useful, will eventually fall since Jinton will get absorbed. 

Nagato casually solos the Gokage, especially this bloodlusted version.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 29, 2015)

If we're applying OOC stuff to the Gokage, then why can't we say Nagato applies the B-Ranked summoning amplification jutsu on all his summons rather than just the dog?

We're willing to say Tsunade can force a Shinra Tensei despite Demon Realm's abilities to blast or cut her up, so why can't we counter unlikely notions like that with a plausible notion of Nagato being able to apply a jutsu to any summon?

Or if we're willing to say rock golems can withstand Shinra Tensei, why not counter it with Nagato using a buck load of mainstream Ninjutsu to help himself out whether it be high level elemental jutsu or clones?

No matter how you wanna play, Nagato wins when you consider all the facts. Especially when we want to bring guys like Jiraiya into this thread.


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## sanninme rikudo (Oct 29, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Katsuyu kills animal path summonings and no one will die from CST
> Tsunade can tank
> A can tank
> Onoki can hide in a golem
> ...


Yeah, Katsuyu attacks Cerberus and it makes more of itself. Problem solved…

Tsunade could barely do anything after a CST from Tendo was landed. And it wasn't even landed specifically on her, but rather the entire village. Now picture CST landed directly on all the Gokage. 
A, Mei, and Gaara tanking even one of Nagato's Boss-Size ST is comical, let alone CST. The majority of there moves is absorbed by Preta, leaving them with the only option Taijutsu, and you resort to Taijutsu on Nagato and you get subdued by Shurado, then Soulhunted by Ningendo. 

Then you have the other option of Nagato oneshotting Onoki with an amped up ST, then use CT for the rest.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 29, 2015)

Izaya vs Munboy


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## LostSelf (Oct 29, 2015)

Ryuzaki, Munboy and Izaya should agree to disagree. If people couldn't convince her about 8th gated Gai beating Manda, listen, *motherfucking Manda*, then do not expect to convince a Sannin opposition to win. 

Because Sannin are god tier levels individually in her eyes.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 29, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Ryuzaki, Munboy and Izaya should agree to disagree. If people couldn't convince her about 8th gated Gai beating Manda, listen, *motherfucking Manda*, then do not expect to convince a Sannin opposition to win.
> 
> Because Sannin are god tier levels individually in her eyes.


What I find more interesting is that both of us think it's a she


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## Matty (Mar 12, 2016)

Prime Nagato should fuckin wreck


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 12, 2016)

My opinion probably wont be considered due to my avatar but whatever I'm going to speak anyway. Nagato was able to control Six Paths, simultaneously see through and control all of the Paths and the dozens of boss-level summons, simultaneously change his chakra nature/signature while being tracked by sensors (and his own sensing skills are so great that he was able to  sense Naruto's approach without any conscious effort, pinpoint Kabuto's exact location through a sensor-proof barrier which was something no one else could do and sense when Itachi was about to use a Jutsu ) to confuse them while fighting hundreds of shinobi (including high-level ones such as Kakashi, SM Naruto, and the toads), use a village-sized CST, use a landscape-sized CT, and then revive all of the people he had killed with the last of his chakra while he was severely weakened and crippled over the span of one day.

Later, it took the combined efforts of NTCM Naruto, V2 - TBM B, and Edo MS Itachi to finish him off while he was mindless, mostly immobile, and his sensing was turned off (considering Kabuto had no idea he was sensor to begin with) when he was revived. If this is some type of hypothetical prime Nagato who is mobile, is fully in control of himself, and is bloodlusted with killing intent then quite simply the Gokage are fucked. 

People keep trying to use examples of their performance against Madara to prove that they would beat Nagato yet Madara and Nagato have completely different fighting styles, Nagato has shown superior mastery and usage over the Rinnegan, and Nagato is bloodlusted whilst Madara was mostly toying with the Kage. So those arguments are heavily flawed. All of the paths are faster and stronger when used through himself as stated and shown. The Preta Path nullifies all ninjutsu, the Animal Path creates much more bodies of vision and they can act as offense and defense to keep pinning down the Kage, the Asura Path can further pressure them by launching missiles and chakra lasers at them from afar, the Human and Naraka Paths eliminate any CQC (Nagato is also rather durable so one hit from Tsunade or A will not kill him) as one grab paralyzes you and that spells certain death (Your chakra, life-force, and/or soul can now be ripped out), and the Deva Path definitely spells the end if he starts out with CT. 

I'm just not seeing how the Gokage take this, this is literally the weakest generation of Kage verse one of the most OP and haxed characters in the whole series who managed to hard press 3 high-tier Kage-levels while he was nearly immobile and being controlled by a guy who had a one-track mind (chose to go after Naruto and B, completely ignored Itachi leaving him open to attack) and didn't even know how to use his abilities correctly (nor was he aware of them all to begin with). A Prime Nagato would be a complete monster.


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