# Killer vs Sanji



## Kinjin (Jan 18, 2021)

Location: Ringo Snowland Region
Distance: 20m
Character state of mind: Bloodlusted
No restrictions

This is current Killer vs Sanji with his Raid Suit. Who wins?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Thdyingbreed (Jan 18, 2021)

Killer loses high diff.

I need to see way more from him and I have my doubts if he’s be able to damage the raidsuit.

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 2 | Optimistic 4 | Dislike 2


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## muchentuchen (Jan 18, 2021)

Killer makes mincemeat out of Sanji and serves it to the strawhats. Mid diff, can reach low diff on his best day.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## VileNotice (Jan 18, 2021)

Extreme diff either way but I’m leaning Sanji, people’s expectations of Killer are too high.

He’s a step below Zoro like Kid is a step below Luffy, they are simply counterparts which is why Oda groups them together.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Fel1x (Jan 18, 2021)

Zoro~Sanji~Killer

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jan 18, 2021)

I've always had Sanji over Killer and Bepo (whenever he fights).  


I think Sanji's EOS cap is like Beckman while Killer would cap at regular smegular YFM like King or Katakuri.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Sloan (Jan 18, 2021)

Killer high(low) diffs :x


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## Beast (Jan 18, 2021)

Killer extreme diff


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 18, 2021)

Killer gets the benefit of the doubt

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 18, 2021)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Killer loses high diff.
> 
> I need to see way more from him and I have my doubts if he’s be able to damage the raidsuit.



Is this a troll post? 

Killer is gonna hurt kaidou or big mom probably both

But you doubt if he can hurt sanji

Reactions: Funny 1


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## convict (Jan 18, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> I've always had Sanji over Killer *and Bepo* (whenever he fights).



Bepo?

No way really?

Reactions: Funny 11


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## Thdyingbreed (Jan 19, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Is this a troll post?
> 
> Killer is gonna hurt kaidou or big mom probably both
> 
> But you doubt if he can hurt sanji


It’s based off current feats until otherwise Sanji gets the benefit of the doubt.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 19, 2021)

Sanji gets the benefit of doubt imo.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 19, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Is this a troll post?
> 
> Killer is gonna hurt kaidou or big mom probably both


And when he gets the feat, we can talk about it.


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## Corax (Jan 19, 2021)

Killer is bound to surpass Sanji as fight escalates. He was already complemented by Kaido for his speed and close combat skill. And he has yet to show us his strongest attacks I think.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 19, 2021)

Without the Germa suit, Killer would win for sure, easily at that (most likely). With it, it becomes debatable as we saw him clashing with King a bit before getting overwhelmed. So, I'd say it can go either way.


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## bil02 (Jan 19, 2021)

If killer damages Kaido,then it is a given he can hurt Sanji through the raid suit, but for now he hasn't shown much aside in the agility department where he should be able to match Sanji's speed and mobility.
The greatest problem for killer will be finding Invisible Sanji throughout the fight, if Killer's Coo is good enough,he should win in a high diff fight,if not I can see him losing high diff (will depend on his endurance to Sanji's attacks).


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> And when he gets the feat, we can talk about it.



Sure you could do that.

Still a dumb statement to make though.



Thdyingbreed said:


> It’s based off current feats until otherwise Sanji gets the benefit of the doubt.



I don't care about you giving Sanji the win here i am referring to you saying you doubt Killer can hurt him.


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## Mylesime (Jan 19, 2021)

Killer is good but he takes an L.
Sanji high diff.
The only areas where he should have an edge are  AP and COA;
Sanji has the edge almost everywhere else:
COO, Mobility, Durability, stealth
I'm sure he can injure Sanji, but he needs to go all out and use his ultimate moves to get pass the suit.
Reiju was no selling Big Mom's "heavenly Fire"  a move that Zoro countered to protect Luffy, King failed to break through that suit.
On the other hand we've seen what was Kamazou's limit: an Onigiri.

I'm also sure that Killer will grow through that battle, but Sanji too.
Killer is good , Sanji is just better.


It's basically a weaker Zoro VS Sanji. Doesn't make the cut.
A guy with better durability and invisibility, yeah, that's not gonna do it most of the time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## muchentuchen (Jan 19, 2021)

There's a reason why Killer is part of the worst generation, the supernovas, and Sanji is NOT. Again, just because Zoro one shot Killer doesn't mean Sanji stands a chance because Zoro would one shot Sanji even faster. Sanji was portrayed as the number 3 throughout the manga but Oda decided push that number to the right, so he became the backside of the crew, aka, top 3 lowest.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 19, 2021)

muchentuchen said:


> There's a reason why Killer is part of the worst generation, the supernovas, and Sanji is NOT. Again, just because Zoro one shot Killer doesn't mean Sanji stands a chance because Zoro would one shot Sanji even faster. Sanji was portrayed as the number 3 throughout the manga but Oda decided push that number to the right, so he became the backside of the crew, aka, top 3 lowest.



At this point Sanji may legit beat Zoro .
Until he masters Enma that is.

Sanji is a *strawhat.
*
What are you talking about?


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## Kroczilla (Jan 19, 2021)

I don't like calling out specific members, but I swear @muchentuchen must be a really lonely adolescent or something.

Christ, we get it. You hate sanji and live off zoro's nuts. You don't have to spam the dislike button single time someone has an opinion different from yours.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> I don't like calling out specific members, but I swear @muchentuchen must be a really lonely adolescent or something.
> 
> Christ, we get it. You hate sanji and live off zoro's nuts. You don't have to spam the dislike button single time someone has an opinion different from yours.


The archetype of a Zorotard, i swear to God, looks like an algorithm or someone created in some lab.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Lewd 1


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## muchentuchen (Jan 19, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> At this point Sanji may legit beat Zoro .
> Until he masters Enma that is.
> 
> Sanji is a *strawhat.*
> What are you talking about?


Sanji's has been overpowered post TS, he has been beaten and had trouble with fodder. So many L's, from breaking his bones to crying and being a reject, so bad, Oda gave him a significant power-up, the raid suit just to fight a flying 6 equally. Franky and brook are matched with a flying 6 right now. Whereas Zoro hasn't even broken a sweat yet and didn't even consider the number 2 of the  beast pirates a threat while casually slashing his main weapon to pieces. He didn't even get serious nor have we seen anything new yet. The guy is an universe of hype and mystery and his power is limitless. We'll see where he stands in this Kaido fight. Unlike the raidsuit, Enma is just a sword that hogs the owner's power and releases it involuntarily, dependant on WHO uses it, it's not magic. So if anything, Enma is actually nerfing Zoro right now against the freaking strongest creature in the manga. Oda's saying, YES, Zoro is THAT GOOD.

Zoro is a supernova
Killer is a supernova
Sanji is NOT a supernova

These 2 are the only non-captains in the group but if you see their interactions with their captains then you notice they're equal in rank.

Let's goooooo

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Chaos Hokage (Jan 19, 2021)

I think Sanji would win. With his Raid suit,  Sanji would easily block Killer's attacks and deliver powerful blows invisible or not that would KO the Joker face Supernova.


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## Mylesime (Jan 19, 2021)

muchentuchen said:


> Whereas Zoro hasn't even broken a sweat yet


, give me some, please. Escaping reality for a moment....




muchentuchen said:


> and didn't even consider the number 2 of the beast pirates a threat while casually slashing his main weapon to pieces.



*Spoiler*: _Why are you blatantly lying. You do know we have access to these panels and we've read the story right?_ 











muchentuchen said:


> The guy is an universe of hype and mystery and his power is limitless



You're a legend, that's the best depiction i've ever read related to One Piece.
A lil' bit cheesy though.
God bless you.



muchentuchen said:


> Unlike the raidsuit, Enma is just a sword that hogs the owner's power and releases it involuntarily, dependant on WHO uses it, it's not magic. So if anything, Enma is actually nerfing Zoro right now against the freaking strongest creature in the manga. Oda's saying, YES, Zoro is THAT GOOD.



Nice try.
So it is magical .

  Again , there is no point lying, we have access to the source material.
Enma is a double edged sword, and a dangerous power up , i'll give you that, it ain't nerfing shit though, don't see the difference with Law ope ope no mi and his impact on his stamina/life force or the medical knowledge required to use it.
Get Zoro's sword out of you mouth it's starting to become uncomfortable . So Zoro is deliberatly nerfed in order to fight the world strongest creature while Kidd is gathering every single piece of metal available? You're unbelievable, the scary part is that i don't think you're trolling, if that's the case you're the best troll i've ever encountered. I sure hope so.

You're a hater so no point arguing about this with you, i have time to waste though, nothing specific to Sanji when it comes to his weapon.
*If he's so strong with it it's because Sanji is that good like you say with the Grandmaster.*
You're so biased that you don't realize that the same principle applies to Sanji.

*His brother had the same suit*, he fought him  bare handed and beat the leaving  shit out of Yonji, *a mean for Oda to highlight the user importance*, a trope displayed ad nauseam, be it in marvel (iron man,etc,etc), dc comics (batman), my hero academia (deku chosen as the heir to ALL Might for his spirit),etc,etc.
Stop hating dude, Killer the character we're talking about was explaining that he was weaker without his *punishers *last chapter.
*Everybody and his mother is enhanced or use weapons..... Zoro included.



*

Stop blatantly lying, there is no point.....

You and the few others trying to convince us that Sanji is nothing without his suit , are laughable and bound to fail when Oda used Yonji to debunk that theory, and when the monsters on the rooftop of Onigashima are all literally  using weapons and/or overpowered devil fruits, with killer and zoro stating themselves the importance of their weaponry.....
It's hilarious seeing you deny what is literally shown and written.
everyone is juiced.
God bless you.





muchentuchen said:


> Zoro is a supernova
> Killer is a supernova
> Sanji is NOT a supernova
> 
> These 2 are the only non-captains in the group but if you see their interactions with their captains then you notice they're equal in rank.










I guess Apoo has more relevance than Jinbei, he's a SN after all. Guess it's settled.
Let's be real.....
Being a SN is not enough to have more relevance in that story compared to Sanji, nor being stronger.
Law a former warlord , being a D and looking for the meaning of that legacy? Sure he's got a shot.
Kidd being a conqueror on top of that and in the pirate king race? Sure he's got a shot.
Zoro future WSS and a strawhat himself? Sure.
Killer won't.
Sanji's father and family are linked to Vegapunk, Caesar, Queen, big mom, the WG,  ruled North Blue, are part of North blue culture via the World Economy News paper. His ex fiance is the daughter of a Yonkou , a descendant of the three eyed tribe and bound to be able to read the poneglyphs.
Killer has no shot at outshining Sanji, get a clue. Keep praying though.

I'm looking forward to Sanji future feats and actions, alongside you among others. It will be fun:

Reactions: Winner 3


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## muchentuchen (Jan 19, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> , give me some, please. Escaping reality for a moment....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Man, this was a painful read. The entire post can be summarized with one word: diversion.

The hit Killer -supposedly Zoro's rival- got in was clearly pointed out by the author and Zoro himself as naivety on his part. It had nothing to do with lack of power such as Vergo cracking Sanji's leg bones, his main weapon. Zoro still improvised on the spot and made that an advantage, one shotting a supernova like he's fodder.

How am I lying when it's on panel? Is your Zoro hate that strong that even vision is affected? He literally threw a flying slash at the #2 of the beast pirates, broke his weapon and on the page after he said he's going up to beat the crap out of Kaido. His only concern was how to get there without having the ability to fly.

[spoil][/spoiler]

If you throw a jab in real life and then wear some type of glove that sucks the energy out of you by unintentionally throwing the jab much harder, you'll have to make serious adjustments for your bout or you'll end up out of breath unexpectedly. Zoro threw a casual slash with it before and it drained a lot, so in a serious situation  (Kaido) he's more cautious and logically spent less power on that onigiri than usual to match Enma's appetite. He then realized that he needs to use a lil more power to match his usual attack. He's literally in the middle of a fight adjusting things on a whim, how hard is that to get? While Sanji's case is clear, everything is enhanced and some are listed on panel. 

Also, who da fook is Yonji? You know someone's irrelevant when they have a number as a name. 1,2,3,4,5. These guys that can't even count to 10 rely on science for their bodily deficiencies, aka weak genes, it's in the family after all. So you're surprised that number 3, who relied on training most of his life and not a science suit was able to beat up his bro who never lifted in his life?

You're using the loser's argument for Killer. "If I had this, I'd have won". Zoro had his best sword taken, was fighting TWO guys that surrounded him, he didn't even know the guy in the back was for real and still never complained. You know what he did? He won and then told Killer to sit his ass down cause no matter what excuse he comes up with, the result wouldn't change.

Supernovas > bigger potential that no name shmucks. Jinbe = former SHICHIBUKAI and fought equal with a whitebeard commander for 5 days straight. The guy's resume is established, Sanji's isn't. If you want to make arguments don't mix apples with oranges cause you did that for all your points. 

@Kroczilla Why you getting your panties twisted over an emoji? Your statement was absurd and received it's grading. Benefit of the doubt is given to those who didn't struggle or went all out. A flying 6 sent Sanji flying.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Great Potato (Jan 19, 2021)

I'm leaning Killer for now, though it's a tough one to evaluate because we haven't seen the true limits of either of them.

Sanji looks really good in terms of defense, but Killer is packing the more impressive offense from what I've seen. I highly doubt that Killer is going down before dealing some real damage to Kaido or Big Mom; his Beheading Claws were portrayed in the same respect as Purgatory Onigiri and left an indentation on Kaido's neck which he praised them for, and that was just his opening move. He's bound to have more powerful attacks up his sleeve and should be at the threshold to damage Sanji through his Raid Suit.

I'd say the invisibility is the more problematic, but not insurmountable. Killer is smart and because of the setting he can try kicking up a lot of snow to cover Sanji or look for imprints whenever he touches the ground to see where he is. Sanji was able to find ways to detect Absalom, who has even better invisibility, with a lot less to work with.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kroczilla (Jan 19, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Sanji looks really good in terms of defense, but Killer is packing the more impressive offense from what I've seen. I highly doubt that Killer is going down before dealing some real damage to Kaido or Big Mom; his Beheading Claws were portrayed in the same respect as Purgatory Onigiri and left an indentation on Kaido's neck which he praised them for


Working on the assumption that this is raid suit sanji.

Not trying to downplay killer but so far, his offensive output hasn't been impressive (or atleast impressive enough that it would get through the raid suit).

While it is possible he might actually damage either Kaido or big mom (though I am guessing this thread is based on current feats as opposed to what each character might accomplish in future), his attack being comparable to onigiri in itself doesn't put him above sanji even in that regard. Sanji's DJ was presented in that same light as being about on par with G3 elephant gun which I think is comparable if not more impressive.



Great Potato said:


> and that was just his opening move. He's bound to have more powerful attacks up his sleeve and should be at the threshold to damage Sanji through his Raid Suit.


See above.

Again it is possible that killer might get that feat, but it remains to be seen. Whereas the raid suit has withstood a serious attack from an FM which we can all agree is significantly above current killer's pay grade.




Great Potato said:


> I'd say the invisibility is the more problematic, but not insurmountable. Killer is smart and because of the setting he can try kicking up a lot of snow to cover Sanji or look for imprints whenever he touches the ground to see where he is. Sanji was able to find ways to detect Absalom, who has even better invisibility, with a lot less to work with.




There are two issues here:

First is Sanji is an equally smart fighter who has multiple feats of combining his smarts and strength to great effect. It would seem out of character to make a retarded mistake like leaving foot prints when you have a suit capable of flight and a technique that allows you to walk on air.

Second and perhaps more importantly, the Absalom example is not the right fit. Like,at all. Absalom was absolutely fodder to sanji. Literally 95% of the "fight" was sanji kicking him around and blitzing him to an embarrassing degree. Iirc, he only got some legit hits in thanks to invisibility + sanji protecting Nami with his body.

Contrast that with the present circumstance. You have sanji who even without the raid suit is undoubtedly a top class fighter capable of clashing even with yonko vets like daifuku in base,  curbstomping yonji who was using a raid suit and would arguably have won against judge but for his torrid state of mind +judge cheating. Even without the raid suit, he is definitely a match for most SNs. With it, I don't see a path for killer.


Also note to everyone else, my post giving sanji the benefit of doubt assumed that we were debating sanji without raid suit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> I don't like calling out specific members, but I swear @muchentuchen must be a really lonely adolescent or something.
> 
> Christ, we get it. You hate sanji and live off zoro's nuts. You don't have to spam the dislike button single time someone has an opinion different from yours.


Ouch dude damn



Mylesime said:


> At this point Sanji may legit beat Zoro .
> Until he masters Enma that is.


That's a big nono


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## Great Potato (Jan 19, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Working on the assumption that this is raid suit sanji.
> 
> Not trying to downplay killer but so far, his offensive output hasn't been impressive (or atleast impressive enough that it would get through the raid suit).
> 
> While it is possible he might actually damage either Kaido or big mom (though I am guessing this thread is based on current feats as opposed to what each character might accomplish in future), his attack being comparable to onigiri in itself doesn't put him above sanji even in that regard. Sanji's DJ was presented in that same light as being about on par with G3 elephant gun which I think is comparable if not more impressive.



Sanji's offense hasn't impressed me too much. Page One overpowered him in a clash earlier this arc and was bouncing back from his kicks in pretty good condition, last arc Daifuku also overpowered him at the Tea Party and matched him on the ship. Not buying DJ being on par with Gear 3rd attacks either, Vergo wouldn't have been eating Gear 3rd hits like that and Doflamingo wouldn't have casually blocked G3 attacks with his shin or feather jacket back on Dressrosa. I'm sure Sanji will showcase more impressive offense this arc, but I'm not betting on him over Killer in that department as long as he's a player in the fight against two Yonko.

Outside of the Beheading Claws actually leaving an impression on Kaido's neck and him finding it worthy of praise, there's also the feat of nerfed Killer piercing clean through Zoro with a scythe, and his Punishers are much more deadly which should speak to their lethality. I doubt Sanji wants to mess around with being on the receiving end of those.



Kroczilla said:


> See above.
> 
> Again it is possible that killer might get that feat, but it remains to be seen. Whereas the raid suit has withstood a serious attack from an FM which we can all agree is significantly above current killer's pay grade.



I wouldn't say some unnamed beak attack from King is significantly above anything in Killer's paygrade. It's impressive, but nothing says that was one of King's most powerful attacks or anything, and it did bloody up Sanji and took him a moment to jump back into the fray afterwards. At this stage I don't think King would have an easy fight on his hands against Killer who is hanging in battle as part of the rooftop 5.



Kroczilla said:


> There are two issues here:
> 
> First is Sanji is an equally smart fighter who has multiple feats of combining his smarts and strength to great effect. It would seem out of character to make a retarded mistake like leaving foot prints when you have a suit capable of flight and a technique that allows you to walk on air.
> 
> Second and perhaps more importantly, the Absalom example is not the right fit. Like,at all. Absalom was absolutely fodder to sanji. Literally 95% of the "fight" was sanji kicking him around and blitzing him to an embarrassing degree. Iirc, he only got some legit hits in thanks to invisibility + sanji protecting Nami with his body.



The Absalom example does fit because it shows there are ways to counteract invisibility, and having a higher power-level doesn't change that. Sanji's invisibility is actually more exploitable because he can't make things he touches invisible; if Sanji can find Absalom by exploding a salt packet then Killer certainly has the means to reveal Sanji in a snowstorm, and Killer would also have haki which should help alleviate things. Sanji making imprints on the ground doesn't have to be because he made a retarded mistake either, if Killer grounds him with an attack or something happens where he needs to quickly find footing then he can take advantage of that, not being able to touch the ground would basically be fighting at a handicap.



Kroczilla said:


> Contrast that with the present circumstance. You have sanji who even without the raid suit is undoubtedly a top class fighter capable of clashing even with yonko vets like daifuku in base,  curbstomping yonji who was using a raid suit and would arguably have won against judge but for his torrid state of mind +judge cheating. Even without the raid suit, he is definitely a match for most SNs. With it, I don't see a path for killer.
> 
> Also note to everyone else, my post giving sanji the benefit of doubt assumed that we were debating sanji without raid suit.



I see all of the Supernova punking Daifuku and Yonji, so that doesn't mean a whole lot to me. I don't think it's unreasonable to think Sanji can pull through with what we know so far, it should be a very close battle either way, but I lean Killer for the time being.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 19, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Sanji's offense hasn't impressed me too much. Page One overpowered him in a clash earlier this arc


It wasn't a clash. It was sanji raising his leg to stop an attack and getting blown back because of course ancient zoans are monsters in terms of strength, something Law pointed out. Not to mention P1 was an opponent Law at the time was reluctant to take on.




Great Potato said:


> and was bouncing back from his kicks in pretty good condition,


Yeah, ancient zoans recover quickly. Not to mention those were base kicks. Raid suit only improves durability.




Great Potato said:


> last arc Daifuku also overpowered him at the Tea Party and matched him on the ship.



Daifuku overpowered him when he was on the defensive. When it was a clash of attacks as with what happened on the ship, they were even.



Great Potato said:


> Not buying DJ being on par with Gear 3rd attacks either, Vergo wouldn't have been eating Gear 3rd hits like that and Doflamingo wouldn't have casually blocked G3 attacks with his shin or feather jacket back on Dressrosa.


DJ being about on par with G3 is legit as they cancelled out big mom's attack which is certainly far above an elephant gun. It should be noted that said attack was aimed at Reiju after she had just tanked an attack from Prometheus so big mom certainly wasn't playing around.

There isn't a need to address the things you raised from the other arcs. If you can buy killer suddenly going from being a nonentity against Kaido to being able to actually hurt him in a single arc, with zero power ups (after being mentally broken once no less for the most parts) in a single arc, I don't see how it's difficult to buy a clear feat of sanji outputting same lvl as G3. Especially considering his base kicks can match one of big mom's strongest ministers and one shot headliner lvl characters with ease.

I feel like there is a fair bit of double standards at play here.




Great Potato said:


> Outside of the Beheading Claws actually leaving an impression on Kaido's neck and him finding it worthy of praise, there's also the feat of nerfed Killer piercing clean through Zoro with a scythe, and his Punishers are much more deadly which should speak to their lethality. I doubt Sanji wants to mess around with being on the receiving end of those.



Killer's attack power isn't even as impressive as what the scabbards managed to achieve. Yeah, sanji wouldn't want to outright tank them, but even without raid suit, sanji is easily once of the more agile and mobile characters especially when his head is in the game. Even Judge couldn't tag him until he got distracted reminiscing about his awful childhood.



Great Potato said:


> I wouldn't say some unnamed beak attack from King is significantly above anything in Killer's paygrade. It's impressive, but nothing says that was one of King's most powerful attacks or anything, and it did bloody up Sanji and took him a moment to jump back into the fray afterwards. At this stage I don't think King would have an easy fight on his hands against Killer who is hanging in battle as part of the rooftop 5.


The point is the raid suit was undamaged. Now what you re suggesting is that killer on top of having to deal with sanji's strength, invisibility, speed, mobility, smarts etc. will get the opportunity to land shots of that nature, against someone with all of those attributes.




Great Potato said:


> The Absalom example does fit because it shows there are ways to counteract invisibility, and having a higher power-level doesn't change that. Sanji's invisibility is actually more exploitable because he can't make things he touches invisible; if Sanji can find Absalom by exploding a salt packet then Killer certainly has the means to reveal Sanji in a snowstorm



The only way it fits is if you have someone like say, Sheephead with a stealth black raid suit Vs killer i.e. someone whom killer would absolutely shit stomp without the raid suit. Killer hasn't even shown enough to prove he can beat regular sanji talkless of the added advantages the raid suit brings.
You also keep bringing up that killer will find a way while ignoring the fact that Sanji is the only one among them who has the actual experience of facing off against an invisible opponent. Or that sanji would just wait around and wouldnt immediately start smashing killer's face in given his speed and the suit's rocket boost.




Great Potato said:


> Killer would also have haki which should help alleviate things.


Yeah, that didn't work out well for P1.




Great Potato said:


> be because he made a retarded mistake either, if Killer grounds him with an attack or something happens where he needs to quickly find footing then he can take advantage of that, not being able to touch the ground would basically be fighting at a handicap.


Leaving footprints while invisible in a snow storm is retarded. Also again, you keep making up scenerios where sanji apparently isn't going to do anything and will just wait around for killer to make the first move.




Great Potato said:


> I see all of the Supernova punking Daifuku and Yonji, so that doesn't mean a whole lot to me.


Yonji, yes.
Daifuku, not so sure. Seems about the same lvl as the F6 whom law wasn't too eager to mess around with and a bracket where most of the SNs fall into.




Great Potato said:


> don't think it's unreasonable to think Sanji can pull through with what we know so far, it should be a very close battle either way, but I lean Killer for the time being.




It would be a close battle... Without the raid suit.


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## Mylesime (Jan 19, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> That's a big nono


There is nothing big about it ck
It's more debatable with Zoro thanks to his incredible endurance.
I'd still give the edge to RS Sanji who has better durability.
Zoro absolutely needs Enma, and he needs to totally unlock it though, if Apoo was able to stand up despite a clear opening and a clean hit from Zoro, he would struggle putting down Sanji, and Killer managed to put him down with one successful hit on the other hand.

Killer and Zoro are similar fighters.
They have better AP and CoA than Sanji, Zoro has on top of that an exceptional endurance.
Sanji has better Coo and mobility, as well as superior durability.
It all boils down to whether Sanji would be able to put them down before getting damaged enough to get KOed or vice versa.
With the added proprieties of flight and invisibility.....
The favorite is clear, specially when it comes to Killer.


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 19, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Zoro absolutely needs Enma, and he needs to totally unlock it though, if Apoo was able to stand up despite a clear opening and a clean hit from Zoro, he would struggle putting down Sanji, and Killer managed to put him down with one successful hit on the other hand.


lol be more biased

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 19, 2021)

Hard to tell. Pretty sure in terms of relevance Killer is more important than Sanji in the fight against the yonks so far. It would depend on how it continues but just based on that I'd give Killer the nod here since he's basically his replacement.


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## Mylesime (Jan 19, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> lol be more biased



  You call it biased i call it objectivity and think you're biased and vice versa. It's a matter of perspective really. I guess we're all more or less biased, we try to take a step back and call it as we see it though.
I don't care about which one any poster sees as the potential winner, these guys are on the same tier.
There is a legitimate argument possible either way, high or extreme diff.
Only those who see a stomp or a low diff fight are fools, a d i might want to childishly and jokingly call them out.
So once again doesn't matter.

  You're underestimating Sanji tough.
The only SN with comparable or superior durability are Drake, Hawkins, Capone and Luffy.
He's more mobile and agile than all of them except Law and Luffy.
He has better Coo than most of them.
Can become invisible on top of that.....
He's a problem for any of them.
Zoro needs all he's got to put him down.
He's superior in terms of endurance, coa and Ap so nice match up. He needs all his advantage though nerfing his PU won't cut it. He needs Enma full power
I'm just stating facts, he got a clean hit on Apoo, yet Apoo got up, he's not fucking up Sanji easily with a shield and an armor. He needs Enma. Unless you think Apoo has better durability than Raid Suit Sanji?
It's not science though we're just deducing stuffs.
With Zoro letting Enma loose, yeah i can see him fuck up the raid suit, its cape, and dealing serious damages to Sanji 's body (original durability). Without his maximum AP, offensive output, good luck with that...specially since can be invisible.
You're actually  the one disrespecting Sanji. Could you imagine what Zoro would do to Sanji with Enma at full strength while depriving him of the raid suit?
Exactly.
Let's be real folks.


It's worse for Killer who's got less endurance and would go down sooner than Zoro, while being less powerful offensively.
Sanji high diff. I said what i said.


Looking forward to the incoming battles.
Want to see Sanji going all out against Queen or King, having his suit destroyed, before finally seeing Judge's son.
Whatever happens it's going to be savage

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 2


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## Intus Legere (Jan 19, 2021)

Zoro and Killer got a reaction from Kaido and had their attacks praised by him. I rate that as better feat than what Sanji did against King (which was impressive as well, just not as impressive imo) and I really doubt Sanji could replicate the feat.

Of course we need to see more from both sides. I expect great things from Sanji with the raid suit but so far, considering the feats, my money is on Killer.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 19, 2021)

Yeah, I am seeing a lot of double standards here.

Not putting a scratch on Kaido is more impressive than cancelling out a serious attack from big mom.

Smh.

Reactions: Like 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 19, 2021)

Before his pairing with zoro I would’ve said sanji extreme. Now I think killer extreme but hard to say. Sanji has mostly looked like shit post ts but I think him clashing (even if briefly) king was a huge jump to where he always should be (somewhere not far off from zoro). Killer tho is fighting yonko and is paired with sanji’s superior in the crew.


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## Great Potato (Jan 20, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> It wasn't a clash. It was sanji raising his leg to stop an attack and getting blown back because of course ancient zoans are monsters in terms of strength, something Law pointed out. Not to mention P1 was an opponent Law at the time was reluctant to take on. Yeah, ancient zoans recover quickly. Not to mention those were base kicks. Raid suit only improves durability.



And if Page One was taking hits from the Punishers which impressed Kaido and are more powerful than the sickles that gored Zoro then I doubt he would have just been brushing it off the next panel after taking those hits.



Kroczilla said:


> Daifuku overpowered him when he was on the defensive. When it was a clash of attacks as with what happened on the ship, they were even.
> 
> 
> DJ being about on par with G3 is legit as they cancelled out big mom's attack which is certainly far above an elephant gun. It should be noted that said attack was aimed at Reiju after she had just tanked an attack from Prometheus so big mom certainly wasn't playing around.
> ...



I'm looking at an entire post-skip run from Sanji failing to dish out any crazy damage to fighters worth their salt against one feat of him and Luffy intercepting an attack from a laughing Big Mom meant for Reiju. When it comes to dishing out damage the best we have from Sanji is kicking Oven into a house, while Killer pierced clean through Zoro with his offense nerfed. Sanji will no doubt show much better firepower by the end of this arc, but Killer is playing a role against the Yonko so he's likely not losing out.



Kroczilla said:


> The point is the raid suit was undamaged. Now what you re suggesting is that killer on top of having to deal with sanji's strength, invisibility, speed, mobility, smarts etc. will get the opportunity to land shots of that nature, against someone with all of those attributes.



Killer has strength, speed, mobility, and smarts as well.



Kroczilla said:


> The only way it fits is if you have someone like say, Sheephead with a stealth black raid suit Vs killer i.e. someone whom killer would absolutely shit stomp without the raid suit. Killer hasn't even shown enough to prove he can beat regular sanji talkless of the added advantages the raid suit brings.
> You also keep bringing up that killer will find a way while ignoring the fact that Sanji is the only one among them who has the actual experience of facing off against an invisible opponent. Or that sanji would just wait around and wouldnt immediately start smashing killer's face in given his speed and the suit's rocket boost. Yeah, that didn't work out well for P1. Leaving footprints while invisible in a snow storm is retarded. Also again, you keep making up scenerios where sanji apparently isn't going to do anything and will just wait around for killer to make the first move.



It fits because it's a proven method to bypass invisibility, you haven't provided a single actual reason why it wouldn't work. Sanji having a higher power-level doesn't suddenly make him immune to being covered in snow, if Killer was the invisible fighter in this match then Sanji would be able to use the same methods to expose him; if Big Mom had the invisible fruit the same tactic could be used to reveal her location. If the Absalom comparison upsets you so much then liken it to something like Nami coating Cracker in water instead.

Killer doesn't need to have experience fighting invisible opponents to realize what he's up against and go for the obvious strategies, this is the same guy who deduced Apoo's weakness while everyone else was getting blasted and slashed clueless on what to do. Invisibility is problematic like I said, but it's not insurmountable especially with a favorable setting to help square off against it.

I don't think Sanji is going to sit there and do nothing either. That should have been made apparent when I said this will be a close fight and that I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to give Sanji the win. Saying a technique of his isn't insurmountable is not the same as saying he'll stand there picking his nose while Killer attacks him.



Kroczilla said:


> Yonji, yes.
> Daifuku, not so sure. Seems about the same lvl as the F6 whom law wasn't too eager to mess around with and a bracket where most of the SNs fall into.



Law didn't want to cause a scene because they were trying to stay under the radar and he didn't want Drake and Hawkins showing up or their identities getting outed, it had nothing to do with him being scared of Page One's strength; Law would absolutely body Page One and Daifuku in a fight. Urouge knocked out a Sweet Commander, Capone embarrassed Oven and took hits from Big Mom, Apoo made post-Udon Luffy slip out of consciousness, etc. all of the [Blocked Domain] are dunking on Daifuku as far as I'm concerned.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 20, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> And if Page One was taking hits from the Punishers which impressed Kaido and are more powerful than the sickles that gored Zoro then I doubt he would have just been brushing it off the next panel after taking those hits.


There's a few things to point put here. First off, P1 took a point blank hit from G3 and barely took damage. The fact that sanji's base kicks (which again is what we are talking about, not taking into account named attacks, DJ and Hell's memories) can make him actually cry out in pain is more impressive than a feat of not even scratching Kaido despite a free shot at his neck. Heck, G3 Luffy's attack on dragon Kaido atleast knocked him out of the sky.

More importantly, zoro has had zero durability feats since the timeskip. Not saying goring zoro isn't impressive but doffy with his awakening couldn't even gore an exhausted luffy.

Lastly, sanji has tanked attacks from judge and doffy even in base. So it's debatable if killer would have been able to gore him the way he did zoro, and that's without the raid suit.



Great Potato said:


> I'm looking at an entire post-skip run from Sanji failing to dish out any crazy damage to fighters worth their salt against one feat of him and Luffy intercepting an attack from a laughing Big Mom meant for Reiju. When it comes to dishing out damage the best we have from Sanji is kicking Oven into a house, while Killer pierced clean through Zoro with his offense nerfed. Sanji will no doubt show much better firepower by the end of this arc, but Killer is playing a role against the Yonko so he's likely not losing out.


The attack was aimed at someone who just took an attack from Prometheus without a scratch. Big mom laughing doesn't change the fact that she wasn't mad after they had literally just tried to kill her.

Secondly, I don't need to defend sanji's previous records even though it is quite defensible coz you have accepted that killer will go from fodder to threat in a single arc. So it's not much of a stretch to imagine sanji would also experience a similar leap (again going solely by your logic here). Heck Ennies Lobby had sanji go from struggling against a CP8 agent to straight up styling all over kalifa.

Yes, killer is playing a role against a yonko, but sanji HAS played a role against a yonko and nothing says he won't repeat same in this arc.




Great Potato said:


> Killer has strength, speed, mobility, and smarts as well


Missing the point which is that sanji has all those arguably to an equal degree without factoring in the raid suit.




Great Potato said:


> It fits because it's a proven method to bypass invisibility, you haven't provided a single actual reason why it wouldn't work.



Again you keep missing the point. Killer is facing someone who is just a skilled and experienced as he is without the added advantage of invisibility. This isn't the case of Absalom who without invisibility wouldn't even register on sanji's radar.


Not to mention the experience with invisible opponents means sanji would know what to look out for should killer try to determine his location.



Great Potato said:


> Sanji having a higher power-level doesn't suddenly make him immune to being covered in snow, if Killer was the invisible fighter in this match then Sanji would be able to use the same methods to expose him


You keep bringing up that killer will cover him in snow. But forget that killer would have to actually determine his location before he can even start thinking of how to go about not only covering him in snow, getting past the suit's durability, making sure sanji for some reason doesn't simply shake the snow off, making sure sanji doesn't simply remain in the air in which case how will he go about covering him in snow in the first place, making sure sanji doesn't land a serious attack coz let's be honest, a DJ would fuck up killer's day.

As I said before the scenerios you keep painting dont seem to take into account the fact that Sanji isn't just gonna be some passive fighter.




Great Potato said:


> ; if Big Mom had the invisible fruit the same tactic could be used to reveal her location. If the Absalom comparison upsets you so much then liken it to something like Nami coating Cracker in water instead.


See above.

the big mom and Nami examples equally do not work for reasons which I feel are too obvious to explain.




Great Potato said:


> Killer doesn't need to have experience fighting invisible opponents to realize what he's up against and go for the obvious strategies, this is the same guy who deduced Apoo's weakness while everyone else was getting blasted and slashed clueless on what to do. Invisibility is problematic like I said, but it's not insurmountable especially with a favorable setting to help square off against it.


It is possible that killer had intel about Apoo's ability. Would make sense since he seemed to be the brains behind their alliance. Also they aren't quite the same thing.

I am not saying invisibility is unsurmountable. I am saying that invisibility+ high class durability+ top tier skill = killer getting outmatched.






Great Potato said:


> I don't think Sanji is going to sit there and do nothing either. That should have been made apparent when I said this will be a close fight and that I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to give Sanji the win. Saying a technique of his isn't insurmountable is not the same as saying he'll stand there picking his nose while Killer attacks him.


No, it's not apparent. Coz all your scenerios involve sanji not doing nothing about being covered in snow, not being smart enough to not leave foot prints while it's snowing etc.

I have never said that invisibility is unsurmountable. Rather that invisibility + him being a top class fighter makes this an impossible match for killer.

It would be like zod Vs superman. But you give zod a suit that makes it impossible for superman to sense him and increases his durability several folds. It shouldn't be controversial to say that except for massive PIS or outside help, supes would be screwed.




Great Potato said:


> Law didn't want to cause a scene because they were trying to stay under the radar and he didn't want Drake and Hawkins showing up or their identities getting outed, it had nothing to do with him being scared of Page One's strength


Law stated that he didn't want to risk injuries before the big fight. If it was about Hawkins and Drake, well P1 is placed within the same general group as they are.




Great Potato said:


> Law would absolutely body Page One and Daifuku in a fight. Urouge knocked out a Sweet Commander, Capone embarrassed Oven and took hits from Big Mom, Apoo made post-Udon Luffy slip out of consciousness, etc. all of the [Blocked Domain] are dunking on Daifuku as far as I'm concerned.


Sanji clashed evenly with daifuku using an unnamed kick. I don't doubt that Law would beat daifuku, but with an unnamed attack?

Urouge took down snack. And Sanji despite being distracted by awful memories as well as underhanded tricks, gave judge a good fight without even going all out. Iirc Judge was match up against snack when the vinsmokes were trying to escape from WCI.

Capone's DF is literally made for defense with nigh zero offensive ability. Not saying it isn't impressive taking hits from Big mom, but queen took more damage and I am pretty sure he would shit on Capone in an actual fight.
Capone embarrassed oven, and so did Sanji arguably in a more impressive manner.

Apoo koed Luffy in what was essentially a surprise attack. Not saying daifuku wouldnt get wrecked against Luffy, but are seriously Luffy wouldn't take real damage if he gave the latter two free shots?

Note again that Sanji match daifuku with an unnamed attack.

This is sort of my broader point. Sanji even without the raid suit is perfectly comparable in strength to most members of the [Blocked Domain]. Add that with the advantages of a Raid suit and I don't see killer doing much.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Mylesime (Jan 20, 2021)

Yeah don't seem very fair and rigorous.
Basically Killer would have the edge based on potential future events and feats.
Possible, but no one has a clue concerning Sanji's future actions during this battle, one could build a similar argument based on the same headcanons.
We could estimate that Killer is stronger or on par with characters like Marco or Jinbei with his potential future feats......
Depends a whole lot on his incomingperformance on the rooftop, who may or may not seal the deal.
Similarly, Sanji's performance could change a lot regarding those hypothetic fights.

  Concerning the ability to deal with invisibility,  same lenience.
I can see based on portrayal, their skills or feats how Law, Luffy and Kidd would deal with it.
Luffy got FS and can fly himself, he also got advanced armement offensively and defensively.
Kidd got massive AoE and can protect himself inside his "punk rotten". Law has massive AoE (tact ) and can teleport.
Here Sanji is at least as smart, fast and mobile as Killer if not better. Got better durability and probably COO, and roughly similar reflexes. Killer just got the nod on AP and Coa.
We can't just dismiss that skill.
It's a problem, even without invisibility Killer would struggle to tag raid suit Sanji , let alone with that added skill.
I'd give him the edge if we take away the Raid suit though, without invisibility and the added durability,  Killer and his "punishers"  have clearly the upper hand.
It's not the same difficulty to deal with Sanji for killer, would be even more difficult against Shiryu , compared to Sanji with Absalom.
Strip away all their power and weapon, Sanji vs Killer is still an hard fought match, do the same with Absalom and Sanji at thriller bark it would be an utter stomp.
Sanji was way smarter,  faster, stronger and agile than Absalom. Killer has not the same margin to compensate at all, he would get hit significantly more than Sanji in a fight while being less durable.
Heck Absalom landed more hits than Sanji and stabbed him.
Who of the two would go down first?
A matter of perspective, depending on the extent of the damages of killer's potential successful hits on Kaido seems odd, could build an equally shaky argument based on Sanji potentially putting Down , King or Queen, or even injuring Big Mom or Kaido based on "potential " feats.
Interesting match up though.
It's plausible to argue for a difficult win for Killer, depends on his endurance,  his Coa and his AP. Basically can he win Zoro style.
Doubt it personally.


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## convict (Jan 20, 2021)

Thinking about Killer more we unfairly rank him lower in the SN hierarchy because he isn't a captain when it should be the opposite as he made Supernova status _despite_ not being captain. After Luffy, Zoro, Kid, and Law he is vying for the 5th Supernova spot contending with Drake and Urouge.

In the future I see Kid as Yonkou level and as his vice captain Killer will likely be Beckman level. I don't see Sanji being stronger than that EoS. So Killer might even be stronger than Sanji now and will be about even with him EoS.

Overall, extreme diff either way. I would rate Zoro vs Kid the same way.


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## Great Potato (Jan 20, 2021)

@Kroczilla

We're going in circles with a lot of this, but the argument has went down some weird rabbit hole where you now seem to be pretending that Zoro doesn't have great durability, Law was intimidated by Page One, or that jabroni's like Daifuku are the same caliber as the [Blocked Domain]. I don't feel I understand what your actual positions even on are this stage, like where are you even placing Killer and Sanji in the grand scheme of things?

Right now Killer is featured as part of the highly prestigious lineup of Luffy, Kid, Law, and Zoro; all four of whom are stronger than Sanji. Jack trashed 5 Sulong Guardians/Musketeers as the prelude before the fight and you think Oda is having a Daifuku level dude as a main player against Big Mom and Kaido? Oda's built something of a rivalry between Zoro and Killer, with their attack even deliberately mimicking the Zoro + Sanji combo on the Pacifista at the start of the skip.

I think it's a fairly universal consensus that Kid and Zoro are both > Sanji, yet Vinsmoke somehow finds a way to be so much stronger than Killer that he can take him out in base and kicks his ass in some landslide victory that's impossible for Killer to win with RS? Either you're heavily underrating Killer's value or there's some serious Sanji wank going on there. I can respect Mylesime's reasoning since he gives Killer his fair shake and recognizes that Sanji will have a tough fight on his hands which is an understandable conclusion. I gave my two cents on the topic and largely that there's a lot left in the air because we're waiting to see the true limits on both of them, but the impartial responses recognize that Killer is clearly presented in that ballpark with the feats and portrayal.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 5


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## Bash24 (Jan 20, 2021)

I think Sanji would win more often times than not. I put Sanji on a similar level to Kid/Law/Zoro. 

Killer's attack power & CoA is likely better than Sanji's but Sanji almost certainly has him beat in everything else.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 20, 2021)

@Great Potato
It was my understanding that you could be reasoned with, but apparently it seems I was wrong coz apparently me saying that Law (as stated in the manga) thought fighting the F6 would risk injury = me saying Law was "intimidated" by P1.

Apparently stating that Daifuku isn't getting one shot by an attack from base law = me saying Daifuku is in the same lvl as the [Blocked Domain].


And my pointing out that zoro has no durability feats post time skip = me saying he does not have great durability.


Or my suggesting that Sanji with the advantages of flight, higher durability, and flight would fight like anything other than a complete retard who leaves footprints on snow is somehow controversial.

Or that sanji with RS can't be compared to Absalom coz Absalom was next to canon fodder against sanji.


This ultimately is what I perceive to be your problem. You completely fail to actually understand the point being made. Which is that sanji even without the suit is fairly comparable to most SNs (note the key word being comparable).

Frankly I feel this came down to one thing which is that you seem to believe sanji is complete canon fodder to Killer without the suit while I believe quite the opposite is the case, coz why else would you keep trying to force the Absalom example?

You mentioned some feats produced by the various SNs and I pointed out how sanji has either matched said feats or how said feats werent being taken in the proper context (e.g. Apoo knocking out Luffy with surprise attacks).

You give killer's growth in strength the benefit of doubt but God forbid sanji gets extended the same benefit....


Not sure what note to end this on, so just.. have a good one.


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## TheRealSJ (Jan 21, 2021)

Killer is a weaker, slower version of zoro so sanji blitzes on terms of speed and he's better observation haki in terms of strength, killer should have an edge but raid suit buffs durability so much that sanji's brothers went from trash to be able to tank yonko commanders.

I don't see what killer can do to sanji's raid suit, and I don't see why people are hyping up for making kaidos muscles move after a joint attack, saying Kaido "praised him".

Doflamingo praised sanji too back in dressrosa then proceeded to low diff him, so praising doesn't mean shit in one piece.

Nobody takes into account sanji's intelligence and battle strategies which will be very useful against someone like killer. 

Of course killer is still no slouch so sanji high diffs


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## TheWiggian (Jan 21, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> Killer is a weaker, slower version of zoro so sanji blitzes on terms of speed and he's better observation haki in terms of strength, killer should have an edge but raid suit buffs durability so much that sanji's brothers went from trash to be able to tank yonko commanders.



Didn't look that way. Kamazou handily kept up with Zoro and even against Kaido they've been portrayed equal in speed even considering oni giri is portrayed as a nigh-instant charge attack.



TheRealSJ said:


> I don't see what killer can do to sanji's raid suit, and I don't see why people are hyping up for making kaidos muscles move after a joint attack, saying Kaido "praised him".



Kaido is by all means more durable than that suit, that's why people acknowledge that feat.



TheRealSJ said:


> Doflamingo praised sanji too back in dressrosa then proceeded to low diff him, so praising doesn't mean shit in one piece.



Doflamingo is the guy that been called a weakling after his loss by Kaido.



TheRealSJ said:


> Nobody takes into account sanji's intelligence and battle strategies which will be very useful against someone like killer.



Killer is resembling Law in terms of calm head and tactics.



TheRealSJ said:


> Of course killer is still no slouch so sanji high diffs





I feel like you guys still underestimate Killer as one of the weakest SN's yet he is on the roof against 2 yonks currently. The non-captain syndrome.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## MYJC (Jan 21, 2021)

I'd give Killer the benefit of the doubt due to portrayal. 

After all, Killer is fighting two Yonko while Sanji is off simping somewhere.


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## stealthblack (Jan 21, 2021)

there is no way for sanji to lose. flight+invisibility+armor shield. so best kamazo can hope for is a draw.


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## Captain Altintop (Jan 21, 2021)

Could almost go either way, leaning towards Sanji with *extreme *(high) difficulty. Kamazo was definitely affected by the SMILE drug when fighting Zoro, but overall I see Killer deserving being on Sanji's level to be fair, maybe not EoS where Sanji will outshine him a bit.

Luffy > Kidd > Zoro > Sanji ~ or ~/> Killer ... The difference gap between Killer and Kidd is slightly higher than Luffy and Zoro's gap, but still somewhat Right Hand Man worthy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Great Potato (Jan 21, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> @Great Potato
> It was my understanding that you could be reasoned with, but apparently it seems I was wrong coz apparently me saying that Law (as stated in the manga) thought fighting the F6 would risk injury = me saying Law was "intimidated" by P1.
> 
> Apparently stating that Daifuku isn't getting one shot by an attack from base law = me saying Daifuku is in the same lvl as the [Blocked Domain].
> ...



The _"woe is me"_ routine about how I think Sanji is canon fodder and refuse to give him the benefit of the doubt doesn't fit here when I've been saying this whole time that it should be a close fight with a lot up in the air, or that I don't even find it unreasonable if people were to give Sanji the benefit of the doubt. I feel like that's being rather fair to Sanji, whereas you're the one that finds it super problematic to suggest Sanji would even have a difficult fight on his hands against a guy who's being portrayed as a peer among the rooftop 5.

I was asking for clarification on what your actual positions were because I felt it was getting more and more muddied and hard to keep up with as the discussion went on, but instead you cycled back to these same circular arguments again. Nothing in this post tells me where you actually evaluate these characters which is a crux of the discussion; other than the vague notion that base Sanji is comparable to the SN, but I'm not even sure what point you're trying to get across with that when the top Supernova would still defeat Raid Suit Sanji.

Earlier you were saying that Daifuku was in the same bracket as the Supernova and now you're changing that to saying he wouldn't get one-shot by base Law. What even is base Law? I wasn't aware that Law had a power-up, do you mean Law without his room? I don't know what I'm supposed to make of that information.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## VileNotice (Jan 21, 2021)

convict said:


> Thinking about Killer more we unfairly rank him lower in the SN hierarchy because he isn't a captain when it should be the opposite as he made Supernova status _despite_ not being captain. After Luffy, Zoro, Kid, and Law he is vying for the 5th Supernova spot contending with Drake and Urouge.
> 
> In the future I see Kid as Yonkou level and as his vice captain Killer will likely be Beckman level. I don't see Sanji being stronger than that EoS. So Killer might even be stronger than Sanji now and will be about even with him EoS.
> 
> Overall, extreme diff either way. I would rate Zoro vs Kid the same way.


I generally agree but you don’t think Sanji, the 3rd strongest SH, will be close to admiral level EoS? Based on Luffy and Zoro reaching PK and Yonko level that would make sense to me.


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## convict (Jan 21, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> I generally agree but you don’t think Sanji, the 3rd strongest SH, will be close to admiral level EoS? Based on Luffy and Zoro reaching PK and Yonko level that would make sense to me.



I think Admirals and Yonkou criss-cross in overall level with Yonkou generally a bit stronger but people like Akainu as strong as Shanks/Meme. Beckman is the closest thing to that level which is a fair place to put prime Sanji. He would put up a fair fight against any of them but ultimately lose.


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## Draco Bolton (Jan 21, 2021)

Sanji high-extrem diff. Speed+Flying+Invisibility will still be very effective, assuming that Killer's attacks can seriously damage Sanji through his armor (very possible if Killer manages to do even light damage to Kaido. I was impressed by his attack in last chapter).

But Sanji's velocity (he's probably faster, Killer need to show a bit more here, although obviously I think he's still fast, to do his sneaky attacks, and also synch up with Zoro against Kaido), should give him a slight advantage even if he has less striking power than Killer.

And so far I have nothing assert that Killer is an endurance monster (here again, he need to show more).

IMO Sanji will eventually beat him in the long run. He will have to fight very seriously and intelligently.

But in any case Killer has nothing to be ashamed of. Before chapter 1001, I saw him YC4. Now I feel that he has the potential not to be widely dumped by the other supernovas on the roof, I think he can be YC3.


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## Gotenks92 (Jan 21, 2021)

Killer extreme diffs RS Sanji


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## Mylesime (Jan 21, 2021)

Overall pretty legitimate argument from each side.
However there is a point that i find strange.
It's regarding Killer's ability to injure Sanji and bypass his raid suit+Coa+Natural durability.
It's true, since he has a good chance to hurt significantly Kaido, or to a lesser extent Big Mom.
He certainly would hurt Sanji.

Then we have to use the same logic for Sanji too.
I often see people talk about the damages, or lack thereof  he inflicted to P1, or more generally since the time skip.
Is he not supposed to soon far surpass those feats just like Killer?
If Sanji beat Queen, King or injure a yonkou too.
Would he not inflict potentially incredible damages to killer too?

Let's be real.
Killer will injure Kaido, he should have better AP, and coa , than Sanji.
If not he would not compete which is a silly notion.
He also will be undoubtedly , among the 5 supernovas on the rooftop the one to deal the less damages of them all.
If sanji put down a commander, both being ancient Zoan, one from an almost extincted specy on top of that, the other being a cyborg.
Sanji could obviously badly injure Killer too....


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## Gokou08 (Jan 21, 2021)

convict said:


> I think Admirals and Yonkou criss-cross in overall level with Yonkou generally a bit stronger but people like Akainu as strong as Shanks/Meme. Beckman is the closest thing to that level which is a fair place to put prime Sanji. He would put up a fair fight against any of them but ultimately lose.


Sanji is not going to be only Beckmann level, he is surely gonna be stronger than that


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## convict (Jan 21, 2021)

Gokou08 said:


> Sanji is not going to be only Beckmann level, he is surely gonna be stronger than that



Why should the third strongest player in the Pirate King crew have to be stronger than the strongest Nr. 2 in a Yonkou crew, one who is said to be close in power to his captain? One who made an Admiral hesitate and can likely fight them to an extent? PK is a step above Yonkou but wouldn't necessarily obliterate Yonkou crews.


Luffy-PK level (Roger)
Zoro-At the top of the Yonkou/Admiral level (Kaido)
Sanji-Strongest character just short of that level and can still put up a fight against them (Beckman)


Add in the rest and any Yonkou crew would get beat the hell up by a vanguard of these 3.

I also see:

Kid: Yonkou level (Meme)
Killer: Beckman level


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## Gokou08 (Jan 21, 2021)

convict said:


> Why should the third strongest player in the Pirate King crew have to be stronger than the strongest Nr. 2 in a Yonkou crew, one who is said to be close in power to his captain? One who made an Admiral hesitate and can likely fight them to an extent? PK is a step above Yonkou but wouldn't necessarily obliterate Yonkou crews.
> 
> 
> Luffy-PK level (Roger)
> ...


SHs will be a stronger version of Roger's crew, If Zoro is gonna get stronger than Shanks who is Yonko himself, there is no reason to believe Sanji=Beckmann, Sanji is likely to be Low Yonkou level (current Teach)

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 21, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> The _"woe is me"_ routine about how I think Sanji is canon fodder and refuse to give him the benefit of the doubt doesn't fit here when I've been saying this whole time that it should be a close fight with a lot up in the air, or that I don't even find it unreasonable if people were to give Sanji the benefit of the doubt


Yeah, not sure what you mean by "woe is me" but sure, let's see what we have here.
My belief of you likening sanji to canon fodder is the fact that you keep trying to compare the situation of RS sanji Vs Killer to Sanji Vs Absalom.

As I said over and over, Absalom without invisibility was complete canon fodder for Sanji (it literally wasn't even a fight) whereas Sanji even without RS is at the very least someone that can give killer a very good fight.

I honestly don't know how I could have made this fact much clearer. Seriously, point out exactly where I somehow strayed or muddled up this central point.

So yes, given the added advantages of raid suit along with sanji's other abilities, I don't see any path to victory for killer. Note that saying killer is certain to lose doesn't mean I think he is fodder to RS sanji.




Great Potato said:


> I feel like that's being rather fair to Sanji, whereas you're the one that finds it super problematic to suggest Sanji would even have a difficult fight on his hands against a guy who's being portrayed as a peer among the rooftop 5.


See above.

Also Killer hasn't done anything much at the moment. He has even been less impressive than every individual scabbard. Heck he apparently didn't think there was any hope going up against Kaido until he saw Luffy damage him which implies that at the moment, even he isn't certain of his ability to cut Kaido.

I have never doubted that he would but I have also said that we should like always, go by current feats and the fact is currently killer simply doesn't have the feats to suggest he can meaningfully harm RS sanji (and that is in addition to dealing with the suit's other advantages) whereas Sanji doesn't have that same problem.

Again, you will have to point out exactly where I somehow strayed or muddled up this point.


Great Potato said:


> I was asking for clarification on what your actual positions were because I felt it was getting more and more muddied and hard to keep up with as the discussion went on


See above. As well as my previous posts coz I don't see where said muddling took place.


Great Potato said:


> Nothing in this post tells me where you actually evaluate these characters which is a crux of the discussion


Then you haven't been paying attention. I have evaluated both characters. I know that killer is pretty strong. His performance against zoro despite his fractured mind and unfamiliar weapons tell me that. I know that he will eventually hurt Kaido. But I also know that he just doesn't have the feats yet.

I also know that even without the raid suit, sanji is more than capable of fighting on par with him. Hence I believe taking into account the raid suit, Killer doesn't really have any real chance of victory.

Heck I would argue that you are the one guilty of not evaluating the characters. I mentioned that by feats, Sanji with DJ could match G3 and somehow that's a problem for you, despite no contradictory evidence particularly after the fact.




Great Potato said:


> other than the vague notion that base Sanji is comparable to the SN, but I'm not even sure what point you're trying to get across with that when the top Supernova would still defeat Raid Suit Sanji.


Yeah, the top supernova would defeat Sanji, said top supernova being Luffy, someone who would absolutely destroy killer.

And before you try and point out that you might mean the A3, let me just make my opinion on that known to you. Currently, it is my belief that apart from Luffy, no other SN has a guaranteed chance of victory against RS sanji.




Great Potato said:


> Earlier you were saying that Daifuku was in the same bracket as the Supernova and now you're changing that to saying he wouldn't get one-shot by base Law


Not sure how those two statements contradict each other tbh.
Daifuku is a high tier, which is basically the same bracket as nearly every supernova .

Hence, he is not some fodder/low tier that law can one shot in base (i.e. with regular swordsmanship).
For reference, law could barely hurt vergo in a surprise counter shock attack which is one of his room techniques. I think it's fair to say that Daifuku is most likely on par with or stronger than vergo.




Great Potato said:


> What even is base Law?


Yeah I am pretty sure in verses where people have abilities, "base" would imply that they aren't using said ability.




Great Potato said:


> I wasn't aware that Law had a power-up, do you mean Law without his room? I


Yes, I think it was pretty obvious I meant law without room


Great Potato said:


> I don't know what I'm supposed to make of that information.




Given the context in which it was made (i.e. sanji's performance in comparison to the other SNs), I don't see where your confusion arose.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 2 | Dislike 1


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## Great Potato (Jan 22, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> And before you try and point out that you might mean the A3, let me just make my opinion on that known to you. Currently, it is my belief that apart from Luffy, no other SN has a guaranteed chance of victory against RS sanji.



Alright, good to know.

Reactions: Funny 8


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## convict (Jan 22, 2021)

^I haven't been following this debate in detail, but just seeing the above quotation...

If someone is that far gone there is no hope of resuscitating any sense via thoughtful arguments

Reactions: GODA 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 22, 2021)

convict said:


> ^I haven't been following this debate in detail, but just seeing the above quotation...
> 
> If someone is that far gone there is no hope of resuscitating any sense via thoughtful arguments


It's a good thing you have actual points to make.

Oh wait...

Then again if someone is so far gone to think sanji won't be solidly above beckman lvl by EOS, "there is no hope of resuscitating any sense via thoughtful arguments".



Great Potato said:


> Alright, good to know.


I am guessing this means we are done?

Reactions: Like 1


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## convict (Jan 22, 2021)

> It's a good thing you have actual points to make.



I don't need to. Your opinion that Sanji can possibly beat Kid, Law, or Zoro speaks for itself. Cheers on that one.




> Then again if someone is so far gone to think sanji won't be solidly above beckman lvl by EOS



Believing the cook won't be able to beat Shanks or Kizaru but will be just one step below them. The nerve of me for thinking that.


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## Furinji Saiga (Jan 22, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> And before you try and point out that you might mean the A3, let me just make my opinion on that known to you. Currently, it is my belief that apart from Luffy, no other SN has a guaranteed chance of victory against RS sanji.


I rarely post here. But my god, we have reached new levels of humor.

you are joking right ?

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Kroczilla (Jan 22, 2021)

Furinji Saiga said:


> I rarely post here. But my god, we have reached new levels of humor.
> 
> you are joking right ?


Not really, no.

I do think that Luffy is the only SN with every single tool to beat RS sanji

Above average COO
Excellent durability
Excellent offensive ability
Flight/Mobility.

No other SN has as good a mix of those attributes as Luffy. It's not even close tbh.

Hence, my choice of words that No other SN has a GUARANTEED chance of victory against RS sanji. Key word being GUARANTEED.

Not sure how this is a controversial. They are generally speaking on similar tiers except for Luffy even by Kaido's estimation who is a clear cut above the rest. More importantly, they do not have some or all of the tools I believe are required especially when taking into account sanji's smarts in combat.

This is not the same as saying some of them do not outright outclass him in some regard, but I am hoping we are atleast sensible enough to understand that not every shounen is fucking dragon ball.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 22, 2021)

convict said:


> I don't need to. Your opinion that Sanji can possibly beat Kid, Law



*Shrugs* Guess we can leave it at that.



convict said:


> Believing the cook won't be able to beat Shanks or Kizaru but will be just one step below them. The nerve of me for thinking that.


>Believing sanji isn't far more than just "the cook"

Yeah, we can definitely leave things here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 22, 2021)

convict said:


> Why should the third strongest player in the Pirate King crew have to be stronger than the strongest Nr. 2 in a Yonkou crew, one who is said to be close in power to his captain? One who made an Admiral hesitate and can likely fight them to an extent? PK is a step above Yonkou but wouldn't necessarily obliterate Yonkou crews.
> 
> 
> Luffy-PK level (Roger)
> ...


Roger's crew is quite a bit above the current yonko crews though. The fact that Old WB, Roger's rival, was still considered world's strongest man while old and sickly is an indication of this, not to mention Old, way out of practice, Rayleigh putting up a great fight against one of the current admirals. Rayleigh was easily current yonko level in his prime and Scooper, Sanji's equivalent in Roger's crew, probably wasn't that much weaker.

And the strawhats are going to surpass them. It's not a stretch of the imagination at all that Sanji at minimum is going to be stronger than some admirals. Beckmann is definitely not his ceiling.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 22, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Roger's crew is quite a bit above the current yonko crews though. The fact that Old WB, Roger's rival, was still considered world's strongest man while old and sickly is an indication of this, not to mention Old, way out of practice, Rayleigh putting up a great fight against one of the current admirals. Rayleigh was easily current yonko level in his prime and Scooper, Sanji's equivalent in Roger's crew, probably wasn't that much weaker.
> 
> And the strawhats are going to surpass them. It's not a stretch of the imagination at all that Sanji at minimum is going to be stronger than some admirals. Beckmann is definitely not his ceiling.



Nah it's exactly Beckman ceiling if you consider Prime Ray = current yonks, the next best thing to them are Old Ray and Beckman, possibly current Luffy. This is based on your own understanding of the power structure.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 22, 2021)

Anyway, narratively, there is no way Killer is going to end up being as strong as Zoro long term, which means he won't be stronger than Sanji.

Right now, who knows, just because none of the supernovas on the roof have gotten oneshot, that doesn't suddenly make all of them above YFM. It's still a team setting right now. If Kaido had done a thunder bagua on anyone else than Luffy at the start of the battle, they would probably be laying out the ground KO'd just like Luffy was at the start of Wano.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 4


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 22, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Nah it's exactly Beckman ceiling if you consider Prime Ray = current yonks, the next best thing to them are Old Ray and Beckman, possibly current Luffy. This is based on your own understanding of the power structure.


I don't think Beck is as strong as Old Ray 

And I already said strawhats are going to surpass them, so Zoro is going to be stronger than prime Ray, which makes Sanji as strong or stronger than Prime Ray by proxy.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 22, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> I don't think Beck is as strong as Old Ray
> 
> And I already said strawhats are going to surpass them, so Zoro is going to be stronger than prime Ray, which makes Sanji as strong or stronger than Prime Ray by proxy.



So Zoro becomes vastly stronger than Prime Rayleigh? 

Even I don't wank him that hard  

I think I underestimated the Zoro fan "inside" you


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 22, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> So Zoro becomes vastly stronger than Prime Rayleigh?


That's based on your assumption that the gap between Zoro and Sanji is vast, which it's not. Hence why Zoro surpassing Prime Rayleigh even a little bit means Sanji could at least match him   


TheWiggian said:


> Even I don't wank him that hard
> 
> I think I underestimated the Zoro fan "inside" you


Don't get carried away now


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## TheWiggian (Jan 22, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> That's based on your assumption that the gap between Zoro and Sanji is vast, which it's not. Hence why Zoro surpassing Prime Rayleigh even a little bit means Sanji could at least match him
> 
> Don't get carried away now



Still holding onto the doriki numbers?


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 22, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Still holding onto the doriki numbers?


Still holding onto what Oda's established and continued reiterating since the beginning of the series in the canon, yes


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## Intus Legere (Jan 22, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Not really, no.
> 
> I do think that Luffy is the only SN with every single tool to beat RS sanji


Didn't Law show that he can easily neutralize Sanji? With the personality transplant.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 22, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Still holding onto what Oda's established and continued reiterating since the beginning of the series in the canon, yes



Guess he is also on the roof, just invisible then


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## Kroczilla (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> Didn't Law show that he can easily neutralize Sanji? With the personality transplant.


Two things:

First off, Sanji was caught off guard and had zero knowledge at the time. Iirc they didn't even know Law was an enemy. I don't he would give law the chance to do that in an actual 1v1 battle (what would law even switch him with?)

Second, this is RS sanji. Can't imagine it would be easy to switch personalities when you are focused on finding your opponent (for reference, from P1 and King's perspective, Sanji was said to have simply "disappeared" while invisible).

And finding him only gets harder due to flight and top class speed.

Again, not saying sanji definitely beats law, but i don't see it being a guaranteed win for law either.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> Didn't Law show that he can easily neutralize Sanji? With the personality transplant.



Not only is that ability confirmed to work on Sanji already, Law also surpasses any sort of durability advantage his fans claim he has. And his CoA doesn't suggest he can protect against it. His best option would be to run/dodge.


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## Intus Legere (Jan 22, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> First off, Sanji was caught off guard and had zero knowledge at the time. Iirc they didn't even know Law was an enemy. I don't he would give law the chance to do that in an actual 1v1 battle (what would law even switch him with?)



I think it was more of a "lack of busoshoku skill" for Sanji. Because one can resist Law's powers through busoshoku, as confirmed by Vergo who did so in the past. If one can resist Amputate, one can resist the Personality Transplant. Sanji had less skill in busoshoku than Vergo, so if Vergo can't resist Law's powers, Sanji shouldn't be able to either.

@TheWiggian As fast as Sanji may be, I'm not sure dodging is an option here, because how in the world do you dodge a "personality transplant" attack?



Kroczilla said:


> Second, this is RS sanji. Can't imagine it would be easy to switch personalities when you are focused on finding your opponent (for reference, from P1 and King's perspective, Sanji was said to have simply "disappeared" while invisible).


Can't Law just use ROOM - Scan to detect Sanji?


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> I think it was more of a "lack of busoshoku skill" for Sanji.


He was hit in the back while running away from Law....I dont think it speaks to combat power or haki skill in any way.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> I think it was more of a "lack of busoshoku skill" for Sanji. Because one can resist Law's powers through busoshoku, as confirmed by Vergo who did so in the past. If one can resist Amputate, one can resist the Personality Transplant. Sanji had less skill in busoshoku than Vergo, so if Vergo can't resist Law's powers, Sanji shouldn't be able to either.
> 
> @TheWiggian As fast as Sanji may be, I'm not sure dodging is an option here, because how in the world do you dodge a "personality transplant" attack?
> 
> ...


That's a reach if I ever saw one. Vergo was in an actual combat situation against Law and had knowledge of his abilities, Sanji was running towards somewhere with some other strawhats, they weren't even sure what was happening. How are those two scenarios are comparable at all?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Intus Legere (Jan 22, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> That's a reach if I ever saw one. Vergo was in an actual combat situation against Law and had knowledge of his abilities, Sanji was running towards somewhere with some other strawhats, they weren't even sure what was happening. How are those two scenarios are comparable at all?





Oberyn Nymeros said:


> He was hit in the back while running away from Law....I dont think it speaks to combat power or haki skill in any way.



I never said it did speak of combat power. I said:

*(1)* Sanji is inferior to Vergo in busoshoku haki.
*(2)* Law's powers can be resisted through busoshoku haki.

From the two premises, you can conclude safely that:

*(3)* Sanji can't resist Law's powers through busoshoku haki.

From the conclusion 3 you can infer that, whether he's aware of the attack or not, personality transplant would have worked on him either way. I'm not comparing the scenarios, I'm applying a logical conclusion to the scenario.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> I never said it did speak of combat power.
> 
> I said:
> 
> ...


You do know that haki isn't just "on" all the time, right?

Like, Sanji would have to know that an attack is coming or that he's in a combat situation to even activate busoshoku.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> I think it was more of a "lack of busoshoku skill" for Sanji. Because one can resist Law's powers through busoshoku, as confirmed by Vergo who did so in the past. If one can resist Amputate, one can also resist the Personality Transplant



You are speculating without actual proof. There isn't any proof that COA resists personality switch. Vergo iirc was only confirmed to be unaffected by Law's cutting ability.

But even if that were the case, it will not be relevant coz... detecting sanji alone would require him to focus on one ability (i.e. scan) which leave him open for counter attacks.



Intus Legere said:


> Furthermore, Sanji had less ability in busoshoku than Vergo, so if Vergo can't resist Law's powers, Sanji shouldn't be able to either. Also, as fast as Sanji may be, I'm not sure dodging is an option here, because how in the world do you dodge a "personality transplant" attack?



I don't quite believe Sanji's COA hasn't improved to be above Vergo's at this stage given he clashed evenly with Daifuku and match G3 Luffy's attack against big mom.

But more importantly, law's personality switch attack is perfectly dodge able. He needs to do a thrusting motion with his blade aimed at his enemy's heart to use it.

Don't imagine sanji would have trouble dodging that.



Intus Legere said:


> Can't Law just use ROOM - Scan to detect Sanji?



Yeah, scan will probably detect him, but sanji will be in constant motion, meaning scan must effectively always be up. This would most likely drain law. Not to mention not sure how proficient law is using two room abilities simultaneously. 

And that's without mentioning the incredible difficulty in tagging sanji given his speed, flight and COO.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 22, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> That's a reach if I ever saw one. Vergo was in an actual combat situation against Law and had knowledge of his abilities, Sanji was running towards somewhere with some other strawhats, they weren't even sure what was happening. How are those two scenarios are comparable at all?





Vivo Diez said:


> You do know that haki isn't just "on" all the time, right?
> 
> Like, Sanji would have to know that an attack is coming or that he's in a combat situation to even activate busoshoku.


Also these.


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## Intus Legere (Jan 22, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> You do know that haki isn't just "on" all the time, right?



Yes.

*(1)* Vergo was fully prepared to receive Law's attack and failed, he got bisected.
*(2)* Sanji was fully prepared to receive Vergo's attack and failed, his leg bones were damaged through his own busoshoku.

There's your basis for comparison. I thought the manga was crystal clear that Vergo is superior to Sanji in busoshoku during Punk Hazard, but if you disagree, there's no point in discussing.


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## Intus Legere (Jan 22, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> You are speculating without actual proof. There isn't any proof that COA resists personality switch. Vergo iirc was only confirmed to be unaffected by Law's cutting ability.



If the concept created to resist magical attacks doesn't resist a magical attack, I wonder what does. If nothing does, then Law is unstoppable.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> Yes.
> 
> *(1)* Vergo was fully prepared to receive Law's attack and failed, he got bisected.
> *(2)* Sanji was fully prepared to receive Vergo's attack and failed, his leg bones were damaged through his own busoshoku.
> ...


Now you're moving the goal post. Initially, you were comparing Sanji affected by the transplant attack to Vergo being able to negate Law's attacks with his busoshoku.

Admit that you were wrong instead of grandstanding


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## Kroczilla (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> Sanji was fully prepared to receive Vergo's attack and failed, his leg bones were damaged through his own busoshoku.


Ehhhh...we don't know if sanji was using haki in that instance. Not to mention after, he kept clashing with vergo on even terms without any further incidence of broken bones. Seems like he underestimated vergo initially imho.

Also wasn't it stated that sanji's body had gotten damaged while Nami was using it?



Intus Legere said:


> If the concept created to resist magical attacks doesn't resist a magical attack, I wonder what does.
> 
> If nothing does, then Law is unstoppable.


I guess you are probably right, though I think the other points I made can stand for themselves.


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## Intus Legere (Jan 22, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Now you're moving the goal post. Initially, you were comparing Sanji affected by the transplant attack to Vergo being able to negate Law's attacks with his busoshoku.
> 
> Admit that you were wrong instead of grandstanding



No, the goal is the same. You're the one who came up with an excuse: "You do know that haki isn't just "on" all the time, right?". I just said both were fully aware of attacks in both instances.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> No, the goal is the same. You're the one who came up with an excuse: "You do know that haki isn't just "on" all the time, right?". I just said both were fully aware of attacks in both instances.





"What's this thin film in the air?"
"That was weird. What happened?"
Ye, they were totally aware an attack was happening, you're right...

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Intus Legere (Jan 22, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Ehhhh...we don't know if sanji was using haki in that instance. Not to mention after, he kept clashing with vergo on even terms without any further incidence of broken bones. Seems like he underestimated vergo initially imho.



If he didn't, then that very stupid of him. He shouldn't risk injuring his legs and this isn't the first time he hits something that risks breaking his legs. But I know it's impossible to know, with his black clothes and all.

Anyway, I was sure the consensus was that Vergo had the better busoshoku out of the two in Punk Hazard. I didn't know people actually questioned it.



Kroczilla said:


> Also wasn't it stated that sanji's body had gotten damaged while Nami was using it?



Honestly, I don't remember.


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## Intus Legere (Jan 22, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Ye, they were totally aware an attack was happening, you're right...



You have trouble with reading comprehension, don't you? (Or is this guy a troll?)

I'll repeat the two attacks I compared for you. Because I didn't compare Law's attack on Sanji.



> *(1)* Vergo was fully prepared to receive Law's attack and failed, he got bisected.
> *(2)* Sanji was fully prepared to receive Vergo's attack and failed, his leg bones were damaged through his own busoshoku.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> You have trouble with reading comprehension, don't you? Or is this guy a troll?


Seems like you have trouble keeping your own train of thought:


Intus Legere said:


> Didn't Law show that he can easily neutralize Sanji? With the personality transplant.





Kroczilla said:


> First off, Sanji was caught off guard and had zero knowledge at the time. Iirc they didn't even know Law was an enemy. I don't he would give law the chance to do that in an actual 1v1 battle (what would law even switch him with?)





Intus Legere said:


> *I think it was more of a "lack of busoshoku skill" for Sanji. Because one can resist Law's powers through busoshoku, as confirmed by Vergo who did so in the past. If one can resist Amputate, one can resist the Personality Transplant.* Sanji had less skill in busoshoku than Vergo, so if Vergo can't resist Law's powers, Sanji shouldn't be able to either.
> 
> @TheWiggian As fast as Sanji may be, I'm not sure dodging is an option here, because how in the world do you dodge a "personality transplant" attack?
> 
> ...



Then everyone pointed out how Sanji wasn't aware of it being a combat situation so how could it be a measure of busoshoku skill, and then you brought up him fighting against Vergo which is a completely different point.

Not that it matters, because him fighting Vergo wasn't a measure of CoA either.

Reactions: Like 1


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## stealthblack (Jan 22, 2021)

not sure how did this turn into law vs sanji lol?


kamazo is weakas, he got 1 shot by 2 sword zoro, his weaker swords and zoro that was also heavely wounded and not at his best. sanji raid suit failed to get pierced even by kaidou's YC1 after a crazy attack. another YC1 sanji dodges easily in base mode is YC1 of BM.

sanji can just fly and stay in the air and kamazo will cry because he can't reach him.

kamazo has no haki feats at all, so can't even pretend like he has better haki.


endurance low, attacks mediocre, no haki feats, no special power like df or anything, you are lucky if I feel like kamazo can push sanji medium diff.



Considering the size difference, king attacking sanji was like this airplane attacking you point blank and bodyslam you


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> *(2)* Sanji was fully prepared to receive Vergo's attack and failed, his leg bones were damaged *through his own busoshoku.*


And you still don't understand how haki works after stating that you understand that busoshoku haki is not "on" all the time.


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## Mylesime (Jan 22, 2021)

Law is well equiped to fight Sanji and should be favored in an hypothetic match up based on portrayal.
But Law is closer to Sanji than he is to Luffy, the way they were both clearly dominated by Doflamingo shows that Luffy operated on an higher level, and the gap just widened.
Contrary to killer in his room he's got ways to detect his target, can teleport and has hax that can bypass physical defenses.
Though:
1) Law is not Killer, so....
2) We've seen Law against smoker and how he had to manoeuver in order to land his technique.
On this instance he was literally attacking Sanji in the back while the latter was running away from him and smoker.

Without context, one could perfectly act like the yeti cool brothers, Hody jones, Monet or Caesar were threats to Luffy, Zoro, Smoker and fighters of that caliber.
Apoo Low diff Luffy too i guess, because he got him with his hax in the hall?
Are we really seriously debating if Law can Low diff Raid suit Sanji?


That's why @Kroczilla is right, Raid suit Sanji is an high diff fight at the bar minimum for all the SNs on the rooftop with the exception of luffy, hence why he said victory wasn't *guaranteed* for the others.
In an actual fight against comparable fighters such as hawkins or Smoker why the fuck Law did not end it instantly with that swap of personalities?
Come on.
These scenarios are more and more crazy, i guess Sanji has just to get behind Law, like he did successfully with Queen and King and break his neck?


On topic, Killer is nowhere near Law in terms of AP, AoE,  hax (bypassing to some extent physical defenses, detecting foes in his room) nor mobility (teleportation), so yeah Law could be favored (i would), that is not killer's case though.....

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## Kroczilla (Jan 22, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Raid suit Sanji is an high diff fight at the bar minimum for all the SNs on the rooftop with the exception of luffy, hence why he said victory wasn't *guaranteed* for the others.


Thank you

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## Intus Legere (Jan 22, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Seems like you have trouble keeping your own train of thought:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm can't be bothered to explain again. So sure, whatever floats your boat.





Kroczilla said:


> I guess you are probably right, though I think the other points I made can stand for themselves.



Remind me, what were those again? I'm guessing these:




> "But more importantly, law's personality switch attack is perfectly dodge able. He needs to do a thrusting motion with his blade aimed at his enemy's heart to use it. Don't imagine sanji would have trouble dodging that."



Dodging an attack that has no visual cue and might be instantaneous is easy? How do you dodge easily an attack that is just a matter of someone pointing a sword at you?

Or am I missing something?



> "I don't quite believe Sanji's COA hasn't improved to be above Vergo's at this stage given he clashed evenly with Daifuku and match G3 Luffy's attack against big mom."



I do agree that Sanji has surpassed Vergo by now. But chances are Law also improved his ability, and chances are that it's harder to resist his personality transplant. Sanji improved, but presumably so did Law, maybe even more so than Sanji given he is about to fight Kaido and didn't improve through technology.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> Dodging an attack that has no visual cue and might be instantaneous is easy? Or am I missing something?


Sanji now has knowledge of how law's spatial ability works. Meaning for him, no motion would be "useless" and he would likely be even more careful.

There is also the problem that Law needs to get a good aim, maintain scan and also has nothing to switch sanji with in a 1v1 scenerio.

Law has never shown he can do those things. Heck he only ever used personality switch on opponents who were either already incapacitated (smoker/tashigi) or were straight up unaware (sanji and co.). He's never used it in combat against a competent fighter.

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## Mylesime (Jan 22, 2021)

That's without taking into account COO in a 1 VS 1, focused on your opponent, using precognition, or sensing your opponent's intent.
Contrary to him attacking you in the back while you're fleeing, you know.....


I'm not comparing caesar vs luffy to an hypothetic law vs sanji, that fight showcased how focus and awarness play a part in a fight though, with Zoro telling Luffy to stop fucking around.
I have no doubt that Law could land a critical hit on Sanji like he did with Smoker, but there is no way he's pulling that shit off casually without difficulty.
Come on now, we're better than this


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## stealthblack (Jan 22, 2021)

debating the 5 billion df worth as much as the 2 legendary pirates

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## Intus Legere (Jan 22, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Law has never shown he can do those things. Heck he only ever used personality switch on opponents who were either already incapacitated (smoker/tashigi) or were straight up unaware (sanji and co.). He's never used it in combat against a competent fighter.



Yeah, you may be right about this. And it is a bit overpowered of a move to have no limitation in battle. But if I were to bet, I'd bet the mechanics of the move (or how to resist it) are the same as those of Amputate.





Mylesime said:


> Are we really seriously debating if Law can Low diff Raid suit Sanji?



Isn't that exactly what Law's fruit does? Low diff enemies he shouldn't be able to by the virtue of hax.

As far as I can tell, against Law, either you have a certain threshold of haki and is able to take his hits normally, or you don't and get one shot (if he connects the attack).

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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> I never said it did speak of combat power. I said:
> 
> *(1)* Sanji is inferior to Vergo in busoshoku haki.
> *(2)* Law's powers can be resisted through busoshoku haki.
> ...


So a few things you should take into account:

-Smoker had weaker CoA to Vergo and was able to resist Law's powers without issue and without hardening.
-Vergo had amazing CoA and Law had to pull out a mountain sized room to overwhelm his defense. Not all of Law's abilities pack the same punch.
-Law was able to twice teleport Doflamingo when Doflamingo's attention was not focused on him. When Doflamingo was directly engaging him, he did no such thing.

Sanji is weaker than Law though; Im not arguing that he isnt.


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## Mylesime (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> Isn't that exactly what Law's fruit does? Low diff enemies he shouldn't be able to by the virtue of hax.
> 
> As far as I can tell, against Law, either you have a certain threshold of haki and is able to take his hits normally, or you don't and get one shot (if he connects the attack).



I saw Law fight Hawkins and Smoker, he did not low  diff any of them.
Haki and their own skills, special abilities allowed them to counter to some extent and react to it.

Vergo was cocky and fought he was invincible and that Law was not a threat , he acted stupidly and paid the price. He did not even defend, or tried to avoid.
Knowing what smoker pulled of, he had the means to fare far better had he fought approprietly.
Law is like any other strong characters,  which with the introduction of Haki on top of devil fruits, and more and more advanced weapons, are god like fighters with extraordinary abilities at this point in the story ( destroying your opponent thanks to haki emitted in his body, hashoken, fishmen karate, fire, electricity, predicting the future, feeling your opponent feelings and intents,etc , etc).
Law is only low diffing far weaker characters than him in a standard set up.
Again he fought Hawkins and Smoker, did not low diff any of them.
That was clearly portrayed through Tashigi and Smoker. Anyone with smoker level coa can fight law, which is the case for Sanji.
Vergo acting like a fool does not change that.
All of law's attacks don't pack the same destructive power. He's got incredible AP that's true, but in a similar situation if Vergo tried the same foolish approach with a chatacter like Zoro or Denjiro who also got great AP on their tier, without defending, he would have been put down.


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## Ren. (Jan 22, 2021)

Kinjin said:


> Location: Ringo Snowland Region
> Distance: 20m
> Character state of mind: Bloodlusted
> No restrictions
> ...


Why do I smell bait from this Kinjin?


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## Kinjin (Jan 22, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Why do I smell bait from this Kinjin?


How is this bait? Replies show that this is a close match-up which could go either way.

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## Ren. (Jan 22, 2021)

Kinjin said:


> How is this bait? Replies show that this is a close match-up which could go either way.


Both showed so little and you know it.

It is kind of pointless and you can see the result of the thread.

We don't know how strong an all-out non-nerfed Killer is and the same for RS Sanji.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Intus Legere (Jan 22, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> -Smoker had weaker CoA to Vergo and was able to resist Law's powers without issue and without hardening.



Smoker is an intangible logia user with a seastone weapon. Even then, if I recall correctly, he only got directly hit one (MES) and that's was game over.



Oberyn Nymeros said:


> -Vergo had amazing CoA and Law had to pull out a mountain sized room to overwhelm his defense. Not all of Law's abilities pack the same punch.



The point is, as far as I can tell, it's basically a "who outputs more haki" contest. Because the nature of Law fruit is to completely control a cut, as if there's no resistance, and the only things that resist it are haki and seastone.




Mylesime said:


> I saw Law fight Hawkins and Smoker, he did not low  diff any of them.



Law vs Smoker would definitely be a much tougher battle without Ope fruit. It didn't last long at all.

Hawkins fruit is basically extra lives, which were much needed against Law.

Vergo was a low diff, and it definitely shouldn't be.



Anyway, this is way off topic already.

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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> Smoker is an intangible logia user with a seastone weapon. Even then, if I recall correctly, he only got directly hit one (MES) and that's was game over.


No idea what you're referring to when bringing up Smokers fruit. 

We see that Vergo smashed Smokers haki hardened jutte with his hardened bamboo when Smoker didnt even need hardening to block Laws slicing power. 



> The point is, as far as I can tell, it's basically a "who outputs more haki" contest. Because the nature of Law fruit is to completely control a cut, as if there's no resistance, and the only things that resist it are haki and seastone.


And also who can output the most power. Law wouldn't have created a mountain sized room if he didnt need to. That would needlessly drain his stamina if it had no other affect like increasing the difficulty of blocking. It also explains how Law went from being deflected by Smoker on every swing to powering through Vergo's guard in one swipe.




> Law vs Smoker would definitely be a much tougher battle without Ope fruit. It didn't last long at all.


Whatever that means.



> Hawkins fruit is basically extra lives, which were much needed against Law.


We clearly saw that Hawkins could block Laws power once he understood it though. Vergo lost in one swing because it was a mighty swing.


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## Mylesime (Jan 22, 2021)

Intus Legere said:


> Law vs Smoker would definitely be a much tougher battle without Ope fruit. It didn't last long at all.
> 
> Hawkins fruit is basically extra lives, which were much needed against Law.
> 
> Vergo was a low diff, and it definitely shouldn't be.



The duration of the fight is not the only indicator when it comes to difficulty. Was highligthed during Zoro's fight vs Ryuma.
Smoker and Law were each trying to OS the other (smoker relying on his jitte), Law landed his hit first, it was closer than most give him credit for.
I'm not a fan of striping a character of his weapons/skills, etc,etc. They are who they are, and i'm fine with it.
So whatever the specifics, it was clear that Hawkins could hold his own, be it against Zoro or Law.
We also saw that the more his "real life" was in danger, the more cautious and serious Hawkins was.
Anyway Law fights against Hawkins and Smoker were not low diff fights, and make the notion that Law could simply bitch slap Sanji very dubious to say the least 

Concerning Vergo, CIS was his downfall, it was not explained by strength, but by his mental state, a kin to what is going own with the yonkous currently, but worse since Vergo was actually weaker than his targets. He fought he was invincible, and did not take them seriously, he got complacent, Law made him pay, taking into account smoker's performances it's clear he could have done better.
To highlight that, Doffy sent Vergo to deal with Sanji, Zoro, Smoker, Law, Luffy with the help of Monet and Caesar, basically he was in over his head.

Going back to the topic, Law's arsenal is far more useful than Killer's.Don't see any area where Killer got the upper hand on Law really.
Sanji can push Law, let alone killer.

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## Beast (Jan 22, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Not really, no.
> 
> I do think that Luffy is the only SN with every single tool to beat RS sanji
> 
> ...


Sanji has no hope against the A3.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 22, 2021)

Beast said:


> Sanji has no hope against the A3.


If their name starts with 'L' and ends with 'uffy', the yeah I would absolutely agree with you.
Note: referring to RS sanji.

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## convict (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> That's why @Kroczilla is right, Raid suit Sanji is an high diff fight at the bar minimum for all the SNs on the rooftop with the exception of luffy, hence why he said victory wasn't *guaranteed* for the others.



This is another quote your best friend had:



> Rather that invisibility + him being a top class fighter makes this an impossible match for killer.



Once again. Per your close buddy @Kroczilla Sanji can possibly beat Kid, Law, and Zoro but it is IMPOSSIBLE for killer to beat Sanji. When it comes to Sanji of course we can't guarantee that the likes of Kid and Zoro can beat him and he is so far beyond Killer that there is no way whatsoever that Killer has a chance.

This is the level of delusion we are dealing with here.

And even if we take a step back the explanation that "victory isn't guaranteed as anything can happen" in a fight is a complete cop-out. Heck Akainu isn't 100% guaranteed a victory against Marco because in the middle of the fight he might have a coronary vasospasm. But that isn't how the battledome works. In a battledome it is a hypothetical fight in which each combatant is at their best (unless otherwise specified) and we postulate who would win in a scenario purely based on their narrative portrayal and feats within the story. If you believe Zoro beats Sanji high diff, that is it. No need to peddle nonsense that he isn't "guaranteed" a victory. Zoro simply wins with high difficulty that is it.

The only time in which a "victory isn't guaranteed" is in which there is significant doubt in portrayal. For example. We don't quite know Mihawk's level. Is he as strong Shanks or much weaker? Based on portrayal we can say he might win, tie, or lose depending on which side of the coin you are on.

In Sanji's case we know he is the third strongest that has been drilled into us from the start. One without ambition of strength like Zoro but still strong nontheless to fulfill his own role in the crew. Portrayed to have far more positive qualities than stupid Luffy and Zoro who are pure combatants to more than make up for their combat superiority. There is no way Oda would make him beat Luffy's first mate or his biggest contemporary rival. There are no ifs in those fights. Zoro WILL beat Sanji and Kid will as well in a hypothetical match. Oda has crafted a universe in which those who are equal in power fight indefinitely for days and days if they have the stamina or alternatively share victories and defeats if not. If you are stronger and don't suffer from a matchup disadvantage you will win. With what difficulty you do so remains to be seen.

And having the gall to say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Killer to beat Sanji when we have never seen a non-nerfed Killer go all out all the while saying Sanji might beat Kid or Zoro is just asinine.

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## Kroczilla (Jan 23, 2021)

convict said:


> This is another quote your best friend had


But I thought you were my best friend








convict said:


> Once again. Per your close buddy @Kroczilla Sanji can possibly beat Kid, Law, and Zoro but it is IMPOSSIBLE for killer to beat Sanji. When it comes to Sanji of course we can't guarantee that the likes of Kid and Zoro can beat him and he is so far beyond Killer that there is no way whatsoever that Killer has a chance


As per usual, you fail at basic reading comprehension.

Literally stated that my saying it's impossible for killer to beat RS SANJI doesn't mean I think sanji is stomping or it would be an easy fight.  Never in any of my post did I say that RS SANJI is FAR BEYOND Killer as you are trying to imply that I did.

Regarding the others SN, if you can provide a tangible argument for how they can deal with invisibility without great COO and how they can counter flight + speed, then a discussion can be had.

@Intus Legere raised some good points about Law and a discussion was had. That's how grow ups do things regardless of the fact that yes, we are debating power lvls in a fictional series

If you have some argument to make, make it.




convict said:


> And even if we take a step back the explanation that "victory isn't guaranteed as anything can happen" in a fight is a complete cop-out. Heck Akainu isn't 100% guaranteed a victory against Marco *because in the middle of the fight he might have a coronary vasospasm*. But that isn't how the battledome works. In a battledome it is a hypothetical fight in which each combatant is at their best (unless otherwise specified) and we postulate who would win in a scenario purely based on their narrative portrayal and feats within the story. If you believe Zoro beats Sanji high diff, that is it. No need to peddle nonsense that he isn't "guaranteed" a victory. Zoro simply wins with high difficulty that is it.



Yeah, this is one of the silliest take away from a point thag I have ever seen in a battledome, and I have seen quite a lot.


I clearly provided the reasoning behind why it is possible for raid suit sanji to get victories over those folks i.e invisibility, increased durability, mobility, high class COO etc. I literally pointed out that Luffy had all the tools to make it absolutely impossible for RS SANJI to get a win.

Yes, a battledome is as you described, a hypothetical scenario where characters are assumed to be fighting at their best. So tell be how exactly the best zoro/kid has shown would not have a significantly difficult if not out right impossible time detecting RS SANJI who even from the perception of an FM, seemed to have disappeared.

The point is not about whether you think character A beats character B with xxx diff. The point is that it can be reasonably argued that character B has the tools to beat character A with XXX diff.
For fucks sake, the entire battledome model is built on this i.e. making reasonable arguments about why you think X will occur as opposed to Y.

Again, if you have an argument, I am all ears.



convict said:


> The only time in which a "victory isn't guaranteed" is in which there is significant doubt in portrayal. For example. We don't quite know Mihawk's level. Is he as strong Shanks or much weaker? Based on portrayal we can say he might win, tie, or lose depending on which side of the coin you are on.



Well, we could say there is a significant doubt in portrayal given that we haven't even come close to see the suit's upper limit not sanji combination of his abilities with the suit.

However going by current FEATS (which are what matter most in a battledome), killer will lose to RS SANJI.



convict said:


> In Sanji's case we know he is the third strongest that has been drilled into us from the start. One without ambition of strength like Zoro but still strong nontheless to fulfill his own role in the crew. Portrayed to have far more positive qualities than stupid Luffy and Zoro who are pure combatants to more than make up for their combat superiority. There is no way Oda would make him beat Luffy's first mate or his biggest contemporary rival.


You keep inferring what you think Oda would or wouldn't do like you are some kind of oracle.

I could using this same reasoning equally say _Oda portrays sanji as the man who will rival the future WSS (literally calling them "a duo like no other"), will cause the most trouble for the overwhelming villains of the series (the WG) and will certainly be king of the most technologically advanced kingdom in the world. Hence no one has a guaranteed chance of beating him._


If we try to go the 'portrayal' route, anyone can come up with anything.



convict said:


> There are no ifs in those fights. Zoro WILL beat Sanji and Kid will as well in a hypothetical match. Oda has crafted a universe in which those who are equal in power fight indefinitely for days and days if they have the stamina or alternatively share victories and defeats if not. If you are stronger and don't suffer from a matchup disadvantage you will win. With what difficulty you do so remains to be seen.


See above.




convict said:


> And having the gall to say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Killer to beat Sanji when we have never seen a non-nerfed Killer go all out all the while saying Sanji might beat Kid or Zoro is just asinine.




We haven't seen RS SANJI go all out either. However going by CURRENT FEATS, Killer doesn't have the COO to detect RS SANJI, he doesn't yet have the feats yet to suggest he can or would not have a very tough time breaching the suit (assuming he finds sanji first), doesn't have the feats to suggest he can recover from Sanji's attacks (which he can't do much about in the first place) and he doesn't have a good answer to the combination of all of this attributes added with flight, top class speed and straight up superior COO.

If you have an argument, make it.


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## convict (Jan 23, 2021)

> As per usual, you fail at basic reading comprehension.
> 
> Literally stated that my saying it's impossible for killer to beat RS SANJI doesn't mean I think sanji is stomping or it would be an easy fight. Never in any of my post did I say that RS SANJI is FAR BEYOND Killer as you are trying to imply that I did.
> 
> Regarding the others SN, if you can provide a tangible argument for how they can deal with invisibility without great COO and how they can counter flight + speed, then a discussion can be had.



Don't go backing down on your point. This is what Mylesime quoted about you:



> Raid suit Sanji is an high diff fight at the bar minimum for all the SNs on the rooftop with the exception of luffy, hence why he said victory wasn't *guaranteed* for the others.



And you directly quoted him back and agreed with him. So in summary your argument for why Sanji has a chance against them is that he is close to Kid and Zoro in overall power. Yet it is impossible for Killer to beat Sanji according to you. If being close in power means you have a chance against your opponent, that implies having NO chance against your opponent (as you say is the case for Killer against Sanji) means you are not close in power.

Might want to adjust your logic a bit.



> I clearly provided the reasoning behind why it is possible for raid suit sanji to get victories over those folks i.e invisibility, increased durability, mobility, high class COO etc. I literally pointed out that Luffy had all the tools to make it absolutely impossible for RS SANJI to get a win.
> 
> Yes, a battledome is as you described, a hypothetical scenario where characters are assumed to be fighting at their best. So tell be how exactly the best zoro/kid has shown would not have a significantly difficult if not out right impossible time detecting RS SANJI who even from the perception of an FM, seemed to have disappeared.



You did not provide any reasoning as to why Sanji would win. Nothing whatsoever. All you provided are generalized facts that everyone and their mother know about his raidsuit - that would help him put up a fight. If your argument is that Zoro/Kid cannot tag Sanji or cannot get past his durability then they simply have no chance against him. And that is beyond delusional.

Sanji has poor base durability/endurance as seen by how a casual 5 colored string messed him up or Vergo cracked his shin. The Raid suit attempts to circumvent that by giving him an all or none durability boost. If you get past that durability then you can deal major damage. Zoro's forte especially with Enma is lethality. He may not pack overall power than Gear 4 but lethality is different to power. The most the Raid Suit has done is withstand a piercing unnamed attack from King without any evidence of Haki. That is impressive. But once again. If Zoro cannot get past that durability then he gets wrecked by Sanji. Same with Kid. Zoro superficially making Kaido bleed and Kid making him groan...how does that translate to their ability to overcome the raid suit? Could those attacks do that? Could that unnamed beak attack from King elicit a response from Kaido like theirs did?

We don't know as of yet but feats are only part of the story. We look at the characters' role in the story. We look at the author's intent. Where Oda narratively places Zoro/Kid. What Oda considers Zoro's primary meaning in life. His goals. Would he circumvent the entire history of the the Luffy/Zoro/Sanji dynamic throughout the story or would he remain consistent by giving each of them powerups without overturning the hierarchy. That is why you shouldn't be a robot without a mind for yourself and think outside the box a little.

You shouldn't claim rubbish that because we don't know the limit of the RS durability Sanji can possibly beat Zoro or Kid when obviously Oda wouldn't write that in the story. That is no limit fallacy to a T.

And in regards to invisibility? They get around that as all top level combatants would feasibly do. With Haki and combat reflexes. Once again, if they have no answer to it they get stomped if that is what you believe own up to it.



> The point is not about whether you think character A beats character B with xxx diff. *The point is that it can be reasonably argued that character B has the tools to beat character A with XXX diff.*



That is my point. You use the bolded to figure out the former. You give reasons and arguments as to why character A beats character B. But then in your case you start giving your favorite character chances to win after you arrive at that obvious conclusion. If Sanji loses to Kid in your opinion then own up to it. If you think it is up in the air you are an imbecile and likely almost alone in your opinion - but also, you should own up to it and not craft imaginary scenarios where he will win despite being weaker because it makes you feel better.



> You keep inferring what you think Oda would or wouldn't do like you are some kind of oracle.
> 
> I could using this same reasoning equally say _Oda portrays sanji as the man who will rival the future WSS (literally calling them "a duo like no other"), will cause the most trouble for the overwhelming villains of the series (the WG) and will certainly be king of the most technologically advanced kingdom in the world. Hence no one has a guaranteed chance of beating him._
> 
> ...



I am merely retelling what Oda has done in the manga. If 2 strong individuals are portrayed as equal or close to it they fight for days and days without a clear outcome for a long time. That shows Oda'a mentality. If 2 individuals are equal they will be portrayed as such. If one is stronger he will win in a fair match. If one is weaker he will lose. That is just how One Piece rolls.

In what world will Sanji certainly become a King of a technologically adavnced Kingdom? He wants to do nothing of the sort. He was booted out from that environment and never wants to go back. And being a King of scientific Kingdom has no necessary relation to individual strength.

And it is absolutely hilarious that your claim to fame for Sanji's portrayal is that he is Zoro's rival. You are piggybacking of Zoro's portrayal and hype to uplift Sanji to his level which just displays to me that you also agree that Zoro's portrayal and role as a combatant is superior.



> We haven't seen RS SANJI go all out either. *However going by CURRENT FEATS, Killer doesn't have the COO to detect RS SANJI, he doesn't yet have the feats yet to suggest he can or would not have a very tough time breaching the suit (assuming he finds sanji first), doesn't have the feats to suggest he can recover from Sanji's attacks* (which he can't do much about in the first place) and he doesn't have a good answer to the combination of all of this attributes added with flight, top class speed and straight up superior COO.



Neither does Greenbull. But guess what? His role in the story suggests he would beat the tar out of Judge's son. Killer has not gone all out yet in a healthy state.

Obviously the Greenbull example is an extreme one, but this is when I suggest you stop being a pure feat monkey and evaluate things holistically. Killer is the first mate of the man who competes with Luffy directly. Obviously he has way more to show us than he already did. Which is why we wait before making claims that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Killer to beat Sanji. I am not arguing against the fact that Sanji has the feats to beat him. Look at my original post. But Killer himself is no slouch. With much weaker weapons he injured Zoro. Is it possible he can get passed the raid suit? Maybe. I also don't think Killer has more hype than Sanji. But they are portrayed to be of a similar level so I won't make a final judgement call until I see more from both.

Zoro and Kid (and Green Bull) on the other hand are 100% going to beat Sanji in a fight. I don't need to to see more feats from them because their narrative role in the story is such. You can debate the difficulty all you want but arguing the outcome is lunacy.

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## Kroczilla (Jan 23, 2021)

convict said:


> Don't go backing down on your point. This is what Mylesime quoted about you:



I didn't back down from my original point though.



convict said:


> And you directly quoted him back and agreed with him. So in summary your argument for why Sanji has a chance against them is that he is close to Kid and Zoro in overall power. Yet it is impossible for Killer to beat Sanji according to you. If being close in power means you have a chance against your opponent, that implies having NO chance against your opponent (as you say is the case for Killer against Sanji) means you are not close in power.



You clearly don't know how to read.

What I have said and implied multiple times is that the raid suit combined with sanji's natural ability as a fighter (which is easily super nova class though that's a very broad term) makes it so that they cannot guarantee a win coz unlike Luffy, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE BALANCE OF *TOOLS* NEEDED TO GUARANTEE A WIN.

Never in any of my post did I make mention of overall power levels. Heck I made sure to not that some of the SNs outright outclass him in some regards.

This quite literally my first substantive response when the issue was raised



Kroczilla said:


> Not really, no.
> 
> I do think that *Luffy is the only SN with every single tool to beat RS sanji*
> 
> ...




I place killer beneath either king or zoro hence I don't think he can win which again like I said doesn't mean it will be some no-diff fight.



convict said:


> *You did not provide any reasoning as to why Sanji would win*. Nothing whatsoever. All you provided are generalized facts that everyone and their mother know about his raidsuit - that would help him put up a fight. If your argument is that Zoro/Kid cannot tag Sanji or cannot get past his durability then they simply have no chance against him. And that is beyond delusional



As my post have shown, @bolded is a clear lie.

Also providing facts about a character in support of why you think they would win is *spoiler alert* how this whole debate thing works.

I didn't ever say they could definitely not find a way but what I have suggested is that unlike Luffy, it's not a certain that they would.


convict said:


> Sanji has poor base durability/endurance as seen by how a casual 5 colored string messed him up or Vergo cracked his shin.


Against vergo, his body was said to have suffered extensive damage before hand while Nami was using in (a punch from her for real hurt him).
Five coloured strings was earlier shown dicing up a fucking meteor yet sanji getting superficial injuries that didn't even slow him down on bit from a direct hit to the face is somehow a bad feat for him?

Not to mention, sanji tanked hits from Judge as well as zoan drake and both times ended with him only receiving a slight bruise.

This fairy tale of sanji having poor base durability based on a single showing without taking context into account is just that, a fairy tale.

If we go by your logic of Sanji having poor base durability, then killer's must be said to be shit tier base durability given that he got taken down in a single named attack.






convict said:


> The Raid suit attempts to circumvent that by giving him an all or none durability boost. If you get past that durability then you can deal major damage.



The raid suit is simply naturally durable.  It wasn't an attempt to circumvent a non existent problem.



convict said:


> Zoro's forte especially with Enma is lethality. He may not pack overall power than Gear 4 but lethality is different to power.



I believe I pointed out that some outright outclass sanji in some aspects. Something you would know if you actually read what was posted.

Never questioned that zoro with Enma could possibly get past the suit's durability. Heck I give him the benefit of doubt in that regard (not quite as enthused about giving Killer that same benefit coz he doesn't have something similar to Emma).

But as my earlier point about the right tools indicated, getting past its durability is only one part of the whole when it comes to the suit's advantages.




convict said:


> The most the Raid Suit has done is withstand a piercing unnamed attack from King without any evidence of Haki. That is impressive. But once again. If Zoro cannot get past that durability then he gets wrecked by Sanji. Same with Kid.



It was an attack from him in ancient zoan, an arguably more powerful version of Queen's attack that stunned big mom. And while sanji was out for a but due to the impact, the suit took no damage.

Never said zoro and kid couldn't possibly get past that (again giving them the benefit of doubt on this) but again that's only a part of the whole.



convict said:


> Zoro superficially making Kaido bleed and Kid making him groan...how does that translate to their ability to overcome the raid suit? Could those attacks do that? Could that unnamed beak attack from King elicit a response from Kaido like theirs did?


Zoro made Kaido bleed? Huh.


Also given that a similar attack from Queen stunned big mom, I am willing to bet that King's attack would elicit a response. Heck since you are so big on narrative/author's intent, it wouldn't make sense for Kaido to have as his strongest surbodinates, people who couldnt make him groan from a literal free shot at him.




convict said:


> We don't know as of yet but feats are only part of the story. We look at the characters' role in the story. We look at the author's intent. Where Oda narratively places Zoro/Kid. What Oda considers Zoro's primary meaning in life. His goals. Would he circumvent the entire history of the the Luffy/Zoro/Sanji dynamic throughout the story or would he remain consistent by giving each of them powerups without overturning the hierarchy. That is why you shouldn't be a robot without a mind for yourself and think outside the box a little


Yes, concepts such as character role in the story are important. As I pointed out, going solely by that dynamic, Sanji is portrayed as zoro's rival and someone considered his nigh equal in strength I.e. neither is definitively going to be said to be capable of beating the other. Oda Himself lives by this, refusing to comment on which one of them would prevail against the other. Like I said, if you want to bring up these concepts, then you have already lost the plot coz the story itself disagrees with your insinuating a clear gap between them.

The story literally has them constantly comparing their respective strengths. The story has thee crew and their captain placing equal lvl of trust in their respective strength and ability to protect the crew.

  Heck not too long ago, he drew a cover page wherein the both imagined beating the other as something to be extremely proud of.



Does that sound like something where a definitive win is guaranteed.


Christ, and you call me the robot without a mind






convict said:


> You shouldn't claim rubbish that because we don't know the limit of the RS durability Sanji can possibly beat Zoro or Kid when obviously Oda wouldn't write that in the story. That is no limit fallacy to a T.


I was only following your logic. I made that statement in direct response to your point about Mihawk's portrayal.

And again, durability is just one of the other points brought up.



convict said:


> And in regards to invisibility? They get around that as all top level combatants would feasibly do. With Haki and combat reflexes. Once again, if they have no answer to it they get stomped if that is what you believe own up to it.



Haki wouldn't be of much use. P1 and King seem fairly proficient and from their POV, sanji outright disappeared. Now you could probably be referring to COA though none of them have full body. Also it will be difficult to know exactly where is going to attack from particularly as he can fly.

And you are bringing up combat reflex? Like sanji doesn't have that easily in equal measure?

As for answers, I believe the point I made regarding tools (which I think in the case can be used interchangeably with answers) is that Luffy has all the "answers" and even worse, has them in the perfect mix hence it is impossible for Sanji to beat him.



convict said:


> That is my point. You use the bolded to figure out the former. You give reasons and arguments as to why character A beats character B. But then in your case you start giving your favorite character chances to win after you arrive at that obvious conclusion.


How exactly did you infere that I came to my conclusion before my reasoning?

Are you some sort of mind reader? Couldnt the same be said about you as well?

And even if I did (which I certainly didn't) if you have good arguments, isn't it a simple matter of presenting them?

Like why do you think killer can win this? (And please don't bring up portrayal coz I think I have shown conclusively that its something that easily cuts both ways)



convict said:


> If Sanji loses to Kid in your opinion then own up to it. If you think it is up in the air you are an imbecile and likely almost alone in your opinion -


It is possible to conclude that character A would probably lose to Character B more often than not while also concluding that Character B chances of victory aren't set in stone.

I am after all, not just "some robot without a mind"






convict said:


> but also, you should own up to it and not craft imaginary scenarios where he will win despite being weaker because it makes you feel better.



See above.



convict said:


> I am merely retelling what Oda has done in the manga. If 2 strong individuals are portrayed as equal or close to it they fight for days and days without a clear outcome for a long time. That shows Oda'a mentality. If 2 individuals are equal they will be portrayed as such. If one is stronger he will win in a fair match. If one is weaker he will lose. That is just how One Piece rolls.


Except this isn't always the case now is it?


If anything, Oda seems to also favour banter between characters who are considered equals by other members of the group and wider public. Case in point, zoro and Sanji.





convict said:


> In what world will Sanji certainly become a King of a technologically adavnced Kingdom? He wants to do nothing of the sort. He was booted out from that environment and never wants to go back. And being a King of scientific Kingdom


Given that sanji is already decided to use the tech when necessary and seems to be coming to terms with the concept of accepting his own name, yeah I think it's a certainty.

There also the fact that no one is more fit for the role of repairing the damage done by Germa.




convict said:


> And it is absolutely hilarious that your claim to fame for Sanji's portrayal is that he is Zoro's rival. You are piggybacking of Zoro's portrayal and hype to uplift Sanji to his level which just displays to me that you also agree that Zoro's portrayal and role as a combatant is superior.


I think zoro's goal to be WSS means he will always aim to get stronger and push himself beyond his limits. I also believe that Oda is a fan of the rivalry between sanji and zoro and while he highlights zoro superiority in some areas relevant to fighting (e.g endurance, attack power, top tier intimidation, beast like instincts) he also highlights Sanji's superiority in other areas equally relevant to fighting (Mobility, better COO, actual battle smarts) and has been careful to maintain a structure whereby the subject of who is superior remains a highly debated topic even among the wider fanbase, even going to far tease the fact that they both acknowledge the rivalry exists (e.g. zoro claiming he is worth 2000 men after Luffy compared Sanji's worth to a thousand).

It's funny coz you relentlessly bring up important concepts such as author's intent but seem to have no qualms about throwing it all way once is disrupts your narrative.




convict said:


> Neither does Greenbull. But guess what? His role in the story suggests he would beat the tar out of Judge's son. Killer has not gone all out yet in a healthy state.



Christ, if you cannot come to a conclusion by yourself as the why Greenbull is a retarded example, then you really need to stop reading One Piece and pick up nursery rhymes.



convict said:


> Obviously the Greenbull example is an extreme one, but this is when I suggest you stop being a pure feat monkey and evaluate things holistically. Killer is the first mate of the man who competes with Luffy directly. Obviously he has way more to show us than he already did. Which is why we wait before making claims that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Killer to beat Sanji. I am not arguing against the fact that Sanji has the feats to beat him. Look at my original post. But Killer himself is no slouch. With much weaker weapons he injured Zoro. Is it possible he can get passed the raid suit? Maybe. I also don't think Killer has more hype than Sanji. But they are portrayed to be of a similar level so I won't make a final judgement call until I see more from both.



Greenbull isn't an extreme example. It's an extremely retarded example. If I have to explain that to you, then really what the hell have you been reading all these years?

And why the hell am I being called a 'feat monkey" for bringing up feats IN A BATTLEDOME like its some kind of taboo?

As I pointed out, even portrayal and such doesn't work in Killer's favour, at all.

I have made a point of saying that sanji is on a similar level with the super novas baring Luffy who is on his own tier. My saying killer can't beat him =\= saying sanji is on a completely different tier. Rather that the suit offers advantages that Killer is yet to show he can overcome. I literally used the point about tools in relation to why I think Luffy is the sole definite exception. I literally pointed out that some outright outclass sanji in some regards. But I pointed out again that in the end the suit's advantages are such that even with that, it isn't a guarantee of victory.





convict said:


> Zoro and Kid (and Green Bull) on the other hand are 100% going to beat Sanji in a fight. I don't need to to see more feats from them because their narrative role in the story is such.


Greenbull=retarded example.

Also narrative wise it doesn't exactly work in your favour except you are being "a robot without a mind for yourself".


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

convict said:


> And even if we take a step back the explanation that "victory isn't guaranteed as anything can happen" in a fight is a complete cop-out.





convict said:


> If you believe Zoro beats Sanji high diff, that is it. No need to peddle nonsense that he isn't "guaranteed" a victory. Zoro simply wins with high difficulty that is it.




I disagree but based on that you have the exact same stance as @Kroczilla, with one significant difference, in his opinion Sanji is clearly stronger than Killer, just like you consider Zoro clearly stronger than Sanji, to the point where victory is guaranteed.
So you should not have any issue in principle....
I agreed with his stance regarding the possibility for Sanji to reasonably potentially beat any of the SN with the excePtion of luffy.
I don't share his opinion regarding Killer's ability to beat Sanji, similalrly Killer is a threat to Sanji, so he has a chance , even if Sanji is clearly favored in this match up in my opinion.
There is room for some divergence with your buddies you know, like i'm sure although you may share similar opinions compared to others in this debate you don't think that Law could low diff Sanji.....



convict said:


> And having the gall to say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Killer to beat Sanji when we have never seen a non-nerfed Killer go all out all the while saying Sanji might beat Kid or Zoro is just asinine.



I do not think that it's impossible for Killer to beat Sanji.
I do not think either that it's impossible for Sanji to beat Kidd or Zoro.
I agreed with @Kroczilla on his stance that Sanji had a legitimate shot at victory against the SNs (except Luffy), it's clear in my sentence, did not talk about it being impossible for Killer to beat Sanji.



convict said:


> I am merely retelling what Oda has done in the manga. If 2 strong individuals are portrayed as equal or close to it they fight for days and days without a clear outcome for a long time. That shows Oda'a mentality. If 2 individuals are equal they will be portrayed as such. If one is stronger he will win in a fair match. If one is weaker he will lose. That is just how One Piece rolls.



Duration is not mandatory, Lucci could have absolutely beaten Luffy he lost they did not fight for days.
Strict equality doesn't exist, proximity is the most important element hence why i do not particularly care about rankings, but find tiers more relevant.
My stance is clear, with the exception of luffy, most of the SN's and Sanji are on the same tier currently.
*So any of them has a legitimate shot at winning against the others*.
However you then have to look at match ups (which is only relevant because they are of a similar level, basically no matter Nami skills and abilities Craker would have destroyed her regardless of his weaknesses, extreme example to drive home the point).

That's why @Kinjin match up is interesting, Killer and Sanji are on the same tier.
So by principle Killer can win potentially, depending on a lot of factor.
We can pick up a favorite though, and based on their skills, Killer is not the most suited of the bunch to take down Sanji, so i would favor Sanji, even if i would not go as far as @Kroczilla, you share similar principles since you're stating that Sanji can't win against some of them.
You should not have any problem with his position, if you think that Sanji winning against Law is delusional, this should not bother you.
You disagree on the characters but not the notion in itself.

So like i said since they are on the same tier, it's interesting, we then look at their abilities comparatively.
Kidd is for example the worst match up of the bunch for Zoro, so i would favor him, but i can see Zoro reasonably winning against the odds, even tough Kidd should win more times than not based on their skills, and their levels.
Killer and Zoro have the same style, skillset.
@Kroczilla does bring up some very strong argument, which highlight that victory would be difficult for him in this match up, not impossible imo, but clearly compromised.
Kidd and Law have huge AoE which can neutralize to some extent Sanji's invisibility, attacking randomly.
Kidd can protect himself inside his "punk rotten" and fly, Law can teleport.
Law can bypass physical defense, so the shield force and Sanji's haki are the only obstacle.....

Luffy is self explanatory.
Killer and Zoro are swordmen, fight with blade, and physical fighters, with inferior COO and mobility.
They do have superior AP and COA.
So i can see Zoro endure several attacks and put down Sanji through an insane attack, like he did with Killer. I can give him the benefit of the doubt.
I don't see it for Killer.

Last point, Sanji's durability is fine. Based on his fights against Vergo and Doflamingo, i don't see how he doesn't compare equally with Law and Smoker. For most of the story he was fighting barehanded, the others have DF and /or weapon.
This notion that Sanji had shit durability is simply false, when the others are relying on weapons and various devices to parry and block.
Which was highlighted when Killer fought Zoro, their AP far exceeded their respective durability.
Zoro was parrying Killers scythe with his swords not his torso.....
With his suit his durability is one of the best in their tier.
Another difficulty for Killer.

Reactions: Like 1


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## convict (Jan 23, 2021)

*Spoiler*: __ 







> You clearly don't know how to read.
> 
> What I have said and implied multiple times is that the raid suit combined with sanji's natural ability as a fighter (which is easily super nova class though that's a very broad term) makes it so that they cannot guarantee a win coz unlike Luffy, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE BALANCE OF *TOOLS* NEEDED TO GUARANTEE A WIN.
> 
> Never in any of my post did I make mention of overall power levels. Heck I made sure to not that some of the SNs outright outclass him in some regards.




This is your quote in response to his:



> Raid suit Sanji is an high diff fight at the bar minimum for all the SNs on the rooftop with the exception of luffy, hence why he said victory wasn't guaranteed for the others.





> *Kroczilla:* Thank you



So yes. You thanked him for his seemingly correct interpretation of your reasoning. Saying RS Sanji is a high diff fight for them all is stating he is close in power level. 

That is the crux of the matter. I don't care if you mention that the supernova outclass him in some regard. What you believe is that taken all tools in to consideration Sanji would give high diff and thus is close in overall power to Zoro and Kid and that is what makes victory for them not a guarantee.

Feel free to walk back on your opinion all you want.



> Also providing facts about a character in support of why you think they would win is *spoiler alert* how this whole debate thing works.
> 
> I didn't ever say they could definitely not find a way but what I have suggested is that unlike Luffy, it's not a certain that they would.



You have to make such facts compelling reasons to support your case though. Which you obviously didn't. Your "arguments" boil down to "RS invisibility will be hard to counter and durability hasn't been breached". 

It is 100% certain that they would be able to do both. Zoro's forte is reaction time and cutting/piercing attacks. And Kid's attack power (soon to be shown against Frikkin Kaido) will easily be more than enough given his narrative weight.



> Against vergo, his body was said to have suffered extensive damage before hand while Nami was using in (a punch from her for real hurt him).
> Five coloured strings was earlier shown dicing up a fucking meteor yet sanji getting superficial injuries that didn't even slow him down on bit from a direct hit to the face is somehow a bad feat for him?
> 
> Not to mention, sanji tanked hits from Judge as well as zoan drake and both times ended with him only receiving a slight bruise.
> ...



There is no evidence whatsoever that his leg bones were weakened in Nami's body. He was using that leg without any issue prior to this and even used it to block Vergo's attack which implies the bones seemed to be at least fine. His leg cracked with one hit and he was even shown to limp a bit afterward after that Vergo strike. Don't pull shit out of your ass that him receiving some damage earlier on is the cause of his weak bones. The "fucking meteor" was a bunch of rocks. It is no hard feat to cut them as long as you have the reaction time and range because there is no Haki protecting them. Doflamingo was cackling and swinging around the air casually while putting Sanji in bandages.

Judge has minimal good feats to his name and Zoan Drake just swung at him once with his tail. Fairy Tale my ass. You are trying to make as much excuses as possible when Oda directly tried to accomodate Sanji's poor base defense by giving him the raid suit. Sanji absolutely needed it as a powerup to keep up in the monster trio. 

Killer got taken out by a Wano Zoro Onigiri. Nothing to scoff at and definitely stronger than a casual 5 colored strings. That is what Zoro's fights are typically like. He takes much less attacks than most to down opponents due to his lethality as a function of being a swordsman. Look at Apoo. After Zoro struck him he was out knocked down and out of scene for a bit after before limping back to the fray, compared to how he smiled and countered Kid's attack easily.



> I believe I pointed out that some outright outclass sanji in some aspects. Something you would know if you actually read what was posted.
> 
> Never questioned that zoro with Enma could possibly get past the suit's durability. Heck I give him the benefit of doubt in that regard (not quite as enthused about giving Killer that same benefit coz he doesn't have something similar to Emma).
> 
> But as my earlier point about the right tools indicated, getting past its durability is only one part of the whole when it comes to the suit's advantages.



It is one of the 2 biggest things. The invisibility and the durability. Durability won't be a problem as we know Zoro is just getting started and will make an impact against the 2 most durable freaks in the planet. Guess what? Killer may just get a good hit with his punisher. He is in a prime position to show how his attack power is by no means weak either. And invisibility is once again something that high tier fighters should be able to handle. Zoro especially with his combat reflexes. These raid suit characteristics combined make the fight more interesting. They don't point to Sanji winning. That is ludicrous. Sanji may be overall more intelligent but when it comes to pure combat Zoro is just as intelligent. Sanji's more mobile and Zoro's range would counter that as has been the case pre-skip as well.



> It was an attack from him in ancient zoan, an arguably more powerful version of Queen's attack that stunned big mom. And while sanji was out for a but due to the impact, the suit took no damage.



Queen hit Big Mom with a fully named last-ditch attack directed at a Yonkou. King casually impaled Sanji into a building and if he truly cared about finishing Sanji off he would have stayed to do so. Not remotely comparable. Impressive feat but not enough against people like Zoro and Kid once they release their big guns. And lets not even talk about Law as he bypasses durability entirely.

And yes there was some blood in the panel. Kaido was also impressed and *this is Zoro just getting started.*



> Yes, concepts such as character role in the story are important. As I pointed out, going solely by that dynamic, *Sanji is portrayed as zoro's rival and someone considered his nigh equal in strength* I.e. neither is definitively going to be said to be capable of beating the other. Oda Himself lives by this, refusing to comment on which one of them would prevail against the other. Like I said, if you want to bring up these concepts, then you have already lost the plot coz the story itself disagrees with your insinuating a clear gap between them.
> 
> The story literally has them constantly comparing their respective strengths. The story has thee crew and their captain placing equal lvl of trust in their respective strength and ability to protect the crew.
> 
> Heck not too long ago, he drew a cover page wherein the both imagined beating the other as something to be extremely proud of.



By you and your fellow stans they are almost equal maybe. Not that they are far apart. But there is a clear difference in strength.

Oda himself also refuses to comment on who would win between Luffy and Zoro as well. So? In fact @Louis-954 specifically asked Oda that question if I recall and Oda ignored the question but gave him a signed picture. Oda doesn't like being direct like that as he knows this would annoy one portion of his fanbase.

Zoro and Sanji have a brotherly dynamic. Brothers don't have to be equal to rival each other. Lucci and Jyabura are the same. On the same team but their personalities clash. They will never fight to truly hurt each other but they are close enough that when not serious they can have their squabbles without a victor. 

In the wider world Zoro is the one whose name shines after Luffy. He is a supernova. He was regarded by multiple people to be the first mate. If he is in a different group Luffy will call that group "Zoro and the others". There is a distinction. Zoro and Sanji are not far apart but one is the first mate and the other is number 3. And it is stupid to think that the number 3 has a chance to be stronger than the number 2  who has a specific strength related goal.

And showing me a gag panel to make your case. Incredible. Obviously because no serious panel supports what you say.



> I was only following your logic. I made that statement in direct response to your point about Mihawk's portrayal.



It had nothing to do with my response. You clearly didn't grasp it. Mihawk's portrayal is really up in the air. It is a mystery. Narratively he can either be the same level or weaker than Shanks as there are a lot of clues both ways. The RS is obviously has a limit to its durability that Zoro and Kid can reach.



> Haki wouldn't be of much use. P1 and King seem fairly proficient and from their POV, sanji outright disappeared. Now you could probably be referring to COA though none of them have full body. Also it will be difficult to know exactly where is going to attack from particularly as he can fly.
> 
> And you are bringing up combat reflex? Like sanji doesn't have that easily in equal measure?
> 
> As for answers, I believe the point I made regarding tools (which I think in the case can be used interchangeably with answers) is that Luffy has all the "answers" and even worse, has them in the perfect mix hence it is impossible for Sanji to beat him.



Of course it would be of use. CoO isn't future sight but it will give you an idea of how your opponent is attacking. Did I say Sanji didn't have good combat reflexes? However, reacting to close quarter sword swings is how Zoro fights. Zoro really needs one good hit in to get past the RS durability and that will end the fight as his fights go that way. Kid likely needs multiple attacks. But his power output and likely magnetism and AoE would circumvent the invisibility and mobility. Law's room will allow him to counter with his own mobility and he has superior CoA feats and he doesn't have to worry about the RS durability. Killer is like a slightly lesser version of Zoro.

Against Luffy it will be an easier fight sure. But based on how the above 3 rank, they will also win convincingly just not as easily.



> *How exactly did you infere that I came to my conclusion before my reasoning?*
> 
> Are you some sort of mind reader? Couldnt the same be said about you as well?
> 
> ...



At the bolded read my post again because I never said that.

Of course we are going to talk about portrayal. Killer is portrayed to be at Sanji's level narratively and even you cannot deny that. If we add the fact that his Punisher may be able to injure Kaido or Big Mom and then we know for sure he can get past the durability. We already know he injured Zoro with a basic scythe. He has shown to be able to tango with Zoro so his combat reflexes are no slouch either. But we have only seen him in one short fight. Depending on his feats there are a myriad of ways he can deal with the Invisibility and mobility. 



> It is possible to conclude that character A would probably lose to Character B more often than not while also concluding that Character B chances of victory aren't set in stone.



And as I said it doesn't work like that in One Piece or this battledome unless you are equal in strength or just about. If you believe that about Sanji compared to Kid/Zoro/Law you are a fool. Simple as that.  

If Dory and Broggy can fight every day for eons with a draw every day, that means that if Dory was a bit stronger than Broggy (say high diff) he would have won high diff every day. Since Zoro or Kid are stronger than Sanji and if they will fight every day fully serious without any handicaps then they will win high diff every day. Unless one of them gets your personal favorite example of a coronary vasospasm in the middle of a fight which is the reason why Kid isn't "guaranteed" a win against Sanji. But extraneous factors like that are not included in the battledome.



> If anything, Oda seems to also favour banter between characters who are considered equals by other members of the group and wider public. Case in point, zoro and Sanji.



*Yawn*

Lucci/Jyabura
Kid/Apoo

Its about the prideful personality more than anything.



> Given that sanji is already decided to use the tech when necessary and seems to be coming to terms with the concept of accepting his own name, yeah I think it's a certainty.



Think it  happening in all likelihood all you want but don't start yapping about your fantasies as fact in this discussion. Sanji is no scientist. Usopp and Franky are. He is going to continue going on adventures with the strawhats he doesn't give 2 shits about those Germa shitheads. He is over them.



> I think zoro's goal to be WSS means he will always aim to get stronger and push himself beyond his limits. I also believe that Oda is a fan of the rivalry between sanji and zoro and while he highlights zoro superiority in some areas relevant to fighting (e.g endurance, attack power, top tier intimidation, beast like instincts) he also highlights Sanji's superiority in other areas equally relevant to fighting (Mobility, better COO, actual battle smarts) and has been careful to maintain a structure whereby the subject of who is superior remains a highly debated topic even among the wider fanbase, even going to far tease the fact that they both acknowledge the rivalry exists (e.g. zoro claiming he is worth 2000 men after Luffy compared Sanji's worth to a thousand).



All of this already addressed. They are two similarly competitive people who are like brothers. Never ever have they had a serious fight against the other. Rivalries can exist without parity especially amongst close ones. The debate isn't whether Zoro is stronger than Sanji for the most part except for some rare breed of imbeciles, rather it is about how big is the gap. If Oda wanted to continue the parity he wouldn't isolate Zoro as the first mate, a supernova, and generally lauded by everyone around him as the number 2. He also would have given Sanji a similar goal to become stronger. 



> Christ, if you cannot come to a conclusion by yourself as the why Greenbull is a retarded example, then you really need to stop reading One Piece and pick up nursery rhymes.



I choose my examples to fit the person I am trying to rationalize with so I guess you hit the money.

And clearly you can't counter my point that portrayal matters and it isn't just about feats so we'll move on. Giving you a glaring in-your-face example served its purpose it seems.



> And why the hell am I being called a 'feat monkey" for bringing up feats IN A BATTLEDOME like its some kind of taboo?
> 
> As I pointed out, even portrayal and such doesn't work in Killer's favour, at all.



Because feats is just one part of the dual tools we use to craft our arguments in the battledome genius. There can be many cases in which feats of one character are simply not enough. For example - and I don't want you to strain yourself - Killer only has had one small post-skip fight in which he was nerfed. That isn't enough to say it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to beat Sanji. That is nuts. And then you have the audacity to continue your absolute autistic opinion that not only Killer SURELY can't beat Sanji but Sanji also possibly beats kid. And you didn't point out jack shit about portrayal. Killer is Kid's number 2 and Sanji is Luffy's number 3. Portrayal is about even as Kid is weaker than Luffy even while being his main generational rival.



> I literally pointed out that some outright outclass sanji in some regards. But I pointed out again that in the end the suit's advantages are such that even with that, it isn't a guarantee of victory.



Nobody cares that you said Kid/Zoro/Law are better than Sanji in some regards. What is completely irredeemable is your position that Sanji might actually beat them. Giving them a lot of difficulty is one thing but your almost unprecedented wank is on another level.

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## Gianfi (Jan 23, 2021)

Sanji by feats win high diff.

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## convict (Jan 23, 2021)

> Last point, Sanji's durability is fine. Based on his fights against Vergo and Doflamingo, i don't see how he doesn't compare equally with Law and Smoker. For most of the story he was fighting barehanded, the others have DV and /or weapon.
> This notion that Sanji had shit durability is simply false, when the other are relying on weapons and various devices to parry and block.
> With his suit his durability is one of the best in their tier.
> Another difficulty for Killer.



A lot of what you say I already talk about to your partner in crime but at least you are reasonable in claiming Killer has a chance to beat Sanji as well. Regardless I think it patently ridiculous to suggest Sanji might beat Kid or Zoro and frankly speaking, utter wank.



> Duration is not mandatory, Lucci could have absolutely beaten Luffy he lost they did not fight for days.
> Strict equality doesn't exist, proximity is the most important element hence why i do not particularly care about rankings, but find tiers more relevant.



I said it in the last post but these 2 (and people like Ace/Sabo) were simply not seasoned enough to have a fight for days.

And sure strict equality exists. Dory and Broggy. Luffy and Lucci were nigh equal. This is the level of comparability in which anyone can win. Sanji compared to Kid or Zoro isn't remotely as close.


In regards to your last point Smoker doesn't have great durability either but Law actually blocked Doflamingo's 5 strings. His is alright and is definitely greater than Sanji:

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## Kroczilla (Jan 23, 2021)

So given the shit I stared up (sort of), I think it's best if I highlight how I think a fight btwn RS sanji and the SNs would go. Also tbh given I am on mobile, not quite enthused at typing another text wall so hopefully this will be my last word on the issue.

Bonney: yeah, don't think there's any controversy here

Hawkins: See above. Having multiple lives only gets you so far with less than impressive stats in other regards.

Capone: sort of the same as Hawkins in that he excels in one stat (defense) and is lacklustre in the rest. Eventually sanji wears down his defence imo.

Apoo: has a proper DF and above average cqc ability imho. Ultimately he literally couldn't have picked a worst opponent. One who has head phones and relies exclusively on kicks

Urouge: things start to get a bit dicey. Still give sanji the solid win given in held his own against judge in a less than ideal frame of mind and circumstances, whom I put at snack lvl.

Drake: same as above. Think he puts up more of a fight than P1 but ultimately goes down. Doesn't help that Apoo went against his hybrid form and held in his in what should have been Drake's speciality.

Killer: think my thoughts on this are clear. Can't give him the benefit of doubt as to whether he can currently breach raid suit's defense (this will almost certainly change as the roof top fight continues but till then...). Also doesn't have something which I will go into a bit more detail below...

Zoro: yeah, with Enma in hand, I have zero issue giving him benefit of doubt regarding whether or not he can cut through raid suit's defense. But moreso, he has something which killer sorely seems to lack. The sheer will and grit to straight up take damage all throughout a fight and still pull the win with one big well timed move. Also think he has some kind of sharingan hybrid behind his eyes. Nothing guaranteed here. 

To Guarantee a win would be to ignore the fact that sanji is no slouch when it comes to grit and he's also a very level headed and rounded fighter

If pushed, inclined to call it a draw. At the very least the possibility is high that neither is walking away on their own two feets afterwards.

Kid: basically same as zoro but with better range and defense. Also can't discount the possibility that he can sense any metal parts in the raid suit. Still again, sanji is smart, has no qualms using tricks to get an advantage not to mention regardless of the circumstance, fighting an opponent you can't see is bound to makes things much more difficult.

Again can't give a guarantee. Though if pushed, I would be inclined to give Kidd the win with high diff.

Law: yeah, this imho is the guy will be the toughest. Room is stupid op and all but guarantees that if he lands a half decent hit, sanji will almost certainly be screwed regardless of where said hit lands. He can teleport, his COO appears to be good too, he is smart (likely moreso than sanji), has a way to detect him via scan and is no slouch when in comes to sheet grit.

Frankly, but for his seemingly weak constitution, i was going to regard law as getting a guaranteed win. Not sure about that though coz with him, sanji will likely need fewer attacks to put him down that he would Kidd and zoro.


Note: this isn't me ranking the supernovas. This is just me placing them in accordance with how I feel they would do 1v1 with RS sanji.

Yeah, I think this should settle things (hopefully).

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## Kroczilla (Jan 23, 2021)

convict said:


> In regards to your last point Smoker doesn't have great durability either but Law actually blocked Doflamingo's 5 strings. His is alright and is definitely greater than Sanji:


It's sad to see hate for a character warps ones mind to the extent that they cannot tell the difference between using your hands/hardening to stop an attack and taking same attack straight to the face with no defense.

Gonna respond to your other post though it will be a will. My thumbs are tired.


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## convict (Jan 23, 2021)

^And Sanji has displayed the level of hardening needed to block such an attack in Dressrosa? No? I thought so.

Never been implied that Dressrosa Sanji could do so. Neither feats nor portrayal. We are just going to say Sanji can do it just because Law can?

Expected.

My opinion is that Drake, Urouge, and Killer have an equal chance to win. Zoro, Law, Kid, Luffy surely win ranking from mid to high depending on which one of them we are talking about. Apoo is a bad matchup and loses otherwise would have a good shot. Hawkins loses extreme difficulty. Bonney and Capone lose.

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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

convict said:


> A lot of what you say I already talk about to your partner in crime but at least you are reasonable in claiming Killer has a chance to beat Sanji as well. Regardless I think it patently ridiculous to suggest Sanji might beat Kid or Zoro and frankly speaking, utter wank.
> 
> In regards to your last point Smoker doesn't have great durability either but Law actually blocked Doflamingo's 5 strings. His is alright and is definitely greater than Sanji:



This is not an exemple of his durability though, he is blocking Doffy's attack using a defensive stance and hardening.
Law's durability is comparable to smoker's and sanji's own durability.
Sanji actually endured doflamingo 5 strings just fine.





Again law and the others comparable fighters had often a weapon to block, swords, smoker jitte, luffy relied on his devil fruit.
In terms of pure durability Sanji was always fine, his body was just in direct contact.....


 Afterward Doflamingo literally cut law's arm.
Vergo had better durability than the 3 of them (smoker, law, sanji) on Punk Hazard



convict said:


> Zoro and Kid (and Green Bull) on the other hand are 100% going to beat Sanji in a fight


Green Bull is 100% murdering Sanji at the minute, however remotely associating him with Zoro and Kidd comparatively to Sanji is pure wank in my book.


convict said:


> A lot of what you say I already talk about to your partner in crime but at least you are reasonable in claiming Killer has a chance to beat Sanji as well. Regardless I think it patently ridiculous to suggest Sanji might beat Kid or Zoro and frankly speaking, utter wank.


We disagree, but i get where you stand, however it's only sustainable depending on your answer to this question:
Can Zoro potentially beat Luffy or is it absolutely impossible for him no matter the circumstances?


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## convict (Jan 23, 2021)

^Before Gear 2 I would have said Luffy isn't guaranteed to beat Zoro as I considered them around equal back in the day. Afterwards not so much unless we see new evidence vs Kaido. I consider it high diff now. And thus I am not beating around the bush. If Zoro fights Luffy fairly he will lose.



> Green Bull is 100% murdering Sanji at the minute, however remotely associating him with Zoro and Kidd comparatively to Sanji is pure wank in my book.



I used that example simply because he kept badgering me with BY FEATS Killer can't beat Sanji.

By feats Killer has had only one short fight.

And he was nerfed. Portrayal counts too.



> his is not an exemple of his durability though, he is blocking Doffy's attack using a defensive stance and hardening.
> Law's durability is comparable to smoker's and sanji's own durability.
> Sanji actually endured doflamingo 5 strings just fine.



CoA prevents you from getting damaged thus it should count as part of your durability. Otherwise all non crazies like Kaido and Big Mom aren't too different in durability. See Shanks and his arm or Garp and Luffy. It is Haki that gives you good durability and Law showed a strong Haki/Durability feat more than anything Sanji could or has implied to be able to do so at the time.

Thus Law has greater durability.

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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

convict said:


> ^Before Gear 2 I would have said Luffy isn't guaranteed to beat Zoro as I considered them around equal back in the day. Afterwards not so much unless we see new evidence vs Kaido. I consider it high diff now. And thus I am not beating around the bush. If Zoro fights Luffy fairly he will lose.


Your stance is coherent.
I don't agree, but i can understand where you're coming from.



convict said:


> I used that example simply because he kept badgering me with BY FEATS Killer can't beat Sanji.
> 
> By feats Killer has had only one short fight.
> 
> And he was nerfed. Portrayal counts too.



Yeah but Greenbull is not an appropriate example.
It's true that Killer hasn't shown all he has, but neither did Sanji , his fight against P1 was just a warm up.
So both are bounds to exceed their current feats.
Based on portrayal a legitimate argument could be made where Greenbull solos the 3 SNs and Sanji.
Portrayal wise, Sanji is comparable to the 3 SNs, you will not find a single person claiming so regarding an admiral.....



convict said:


> CoA prevents you from getting damaged thus it should count as part of your durability. Otherwise all non crazies like Kaido and Big Mom aren't too different in durability. See Shanks and his arm or Garp and Luffy. It is Haki that gives you good durability and Law showed a strong Haki/Durability feat more than anything Sanji could or has implied to be able to do so.
> 
> Thus Law has greater durability.


But Sanji has COA too and can use defensive stances, specially with his suit, like law did in this situation.
Raid suit Sanji has better durability thAn Law, i don't think that debatable, specially taking into account law's commentary on the prehistoric zoan physical abilities.
We've seen Law getting beaten down by Vergo, shot by Doflamingo , his durability was perfectly on par with characters on his tier imo, nothing out of this world. Doflamingo severed his arm just fine. His endurance was actually praise worthy.
I can give him the nod compared to sanji when it comes to COA, tough there is no significant gap here, but i don't think that Law has better COA than Zoro or killer.
All in all i can give him the edge compared to base sanji *defensively (on a physical stand point)*, certainly not compared to Raid suit Sanji.

Anyway we're more and more talking about Law in this thread, which should be a clear sign that Killer ain't got what it takes.
I'm not disputing law's superiority.

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## convict (Jan 23, 2021)

^You are the one who brought up Law which is why we are talking about him.



> I can give him the nod compared to sanji when it comes to COA, tough there is no significant gap here, but i don't think that Law has better COA than Zoro or killer.



I agree. Zoro is a CoA specialist after all unlike Sanji.



> It's true that Killer hasn't shown all he has, but neither did Sanji , his fight against P1 was just a warm up.



Yes. Exactly. We are both about to see how it will go down. We shouldn't judge based on limited feats and ignore the author's intent. That is exactly why I mentioned Greenbull or any other top tier like Dragon. They are prime examples that feats aren't be-all-end-all and are just a part of the equation. We all know Greenball trashes Sanji or even Kid solo. But he doesn't have any feats so how do we know that? His portrayal of course. It is something we should weigh just as much as feats when appropriate.

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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

convict said:


> ^You are the one who brought up Law which is why we are talking about him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree.
Then it depends on how we interpret those portrayals.
I see all these characters on the same tier.
Luffy is their daddy, something Law had an hard time with last chapter.
So they're all a tier below. There is a hierarchy within that group, with Kidd or Law portrayed as the strongest, but they're still pretty close , as showcased through Hawkins and Apoo.....

And based on portrayal, Sanji was put alongside Capone and Jinbei following the events of WCI as luffy's underlings.
He was also portrayed countless times as Zoro's partner and one  of Luffy's representatives the last time at Yasuie's execution.
He's got similar bounties than them.
So Sanji has been compared to several SNs, even a guy like killer indirectly where his dynamic with zoro resonated with sanji and zoro relationship (Oda even mimiced their attacks on the PX at sabaody)

Portrayal wise ,Greenbull absolutely destroys Sanji, no one will debate that.
You could pair him with Big Mom, Kaido or Dragon another character with no feats.
Sanji's portrayal is similar to most of the SNs.
Hence why associating Greenbull to Kidd and Zoro relatively to Sanji is not pertinent....

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## Kroczilla (Jan 23, 2021)

convict said:


> This is your quote in response to his:


Yeah, lay it on me.


convict said:


> So yes. You thanked him for his seemingly correct interpretation of your reasoning. Saying RS Sanji is a high diff fight for them all is stating he is close in power level.


This goes to show your absolute lack of basic comprehension. Then again, coming from the guy trying to compare taking an attack head on to taking same while actively using defensive abilities, I don't know how I came to expect much tbh.

Let's go back to the sanji Vs Absalom fight shall we. Without invisibility, Absalom was a literal curbstomp in sanji's favour. With it, it became more of a low - mid diff fight.

Now does that mean Absalom is anywhere close to Sanji's power lvl. Only a retard would think that.

Does that mean that Absalom power lvl grew mid fight? See above answer.

Does it simply mean that Absalom's ability gave him an advantage that allowed him to actually put up a fight? Bingo.

Literally all I have talked about in this thread are the ADVANTAGES offered by the raid suit. The fact that you could only find such a piss poor example only goes to show that you really have nothing in that regard.




convict said:


> That is the crux of the matter. I don't care if you mention that the supernova outclass him in some regard. What you believe is that taken all tools in to consideration Sanji would give high diff and thus is close in overall power to Zoro and Kid and that is what makes victory for them not a guarantee.


Not sure what is being said here. Might be a typo.




convict said:


> Feel free to walk back on your opinion all you want.



Yep, no walking back here.



convict said:


> You have to make such facts compelling reasons to support your case though. Which you obviously didn't. Your "arguments" boil down to "RS invisibility will be hard to counter and durability hasn't been breached


Yeah, so now is the part in which you tell me how killer gets past invisibility, flight, speed and the increased durability.

I have said that I don't see killer breaching the defense coz he doesn't have the feats yet. When he does I will be the first one here to give my concession in that regard.

I have said that even if he did, the advantages are simply too much and as I laid out in my post, unlike zoro, killer hasn't shown the sheer grit and tenacity to keep going.




convict said:


> It is 100% certain that they would be able to do both. Zoro's forte is reaction time and cutting/piercing attacks. And Kid's attack power (soon to be shown against Frikkin Kaido) will easily be more than enough given his narrative weight.


Sanji's forte is also reaction time. Like you keep bringing up reaction all over your post like its not something sanji excels at.

Not really gonna get into the rest. Already gave my full opinion on how I think a fight would go down.




convict said:


> There is no evidence whatsoever that his leg bones were weakened in Nami's body. He was using that leg without any issue prior to this and even used it to block Vergo's attack which implies the bones seemed to be at least fine. His leg cracked with one hit and he was even shown to limp a bit afterward after that Vergo strike.


There is no evidence that it wasn't. And except we take the premise that his legs no longer constitute a part of his body, it is a fair assumption to be made.




convict said:


> The "fucking meteor" was a bunch of rocks. It is no hard feat to cut them as long as you have the reaction time and range because there is no Haki protecting them. Doflamingo was cackling and swinging around the air casually while putting Sanji in bandages.



If you think cutting up a meteor is the same as cutting up a bunch of rocks, then I honestly have to question how old you are.

Doffy always cackles in fights except for when something is said that annoys him. Heck after radio knife, he took hits from G2 Luffy and kept cackling.



convict said:


> Judge has minimal good feats to his name and Zoan Drake just swung at him once with his tail.



Judge seems to be snack tier. And tails are some of the strongest parts of a dinosaur more so Drake's model which clearly has weak arms.



convict said:


> Killer got taken out by a Wano Zoro Onigiri. Nothing to scoff at and definitely stronger than a casual 5 colored strings.




Yeah, I am going to need proof of that. Not to mention said five coloured string attack literally didn't slow sanji down until he got restrained by Parasite which would own most top commanders by feats.


convict said:


> It is one of the 2 biggest things. The invisibility and the durability. Durability won't be a problem as we know Zoro is just getting started and will make an impact against the 2 most durable freaks in the planet.



The mobility, COO and speed are arguably just as important. It will be hard to land a hit when you can't tell were your opponent is.



convict said:


> Guess what? Killer may just get a good hit with his punisher. He is in a prime position to show how his attack power is by no means weak either.



Well when that happens give me a call. Even if it did, see my thoughts on that.


convict said:


> And invisibility is once again something that high tier fighters should be able to handle



Yeah, if it was being used by an regular fighter which sanji is certainly not.



convict said:


> Zoro especially with his combat reflexes


So does sanji. Like this point keeps appearing over and over for some reason.




convict said:


> These raid suit characteristics combined make the fight more interesting. They don't point to Sanji winning. That is ludicrous. Sanji may be overall more intelligent but when it comes to pure combat Zoro is just as intelligent. Sanji's more mobile and Zoro's range would counter that as has been the case pre-skip as well.


Zoro is intelligent in that he learns moves easily. However when it comes to actually battle smarts, he is a good fighter but not as smart as sanji in that regard. Nearly all of zoro's fight involve him using a technique to power through whereas a lot of sanji fights involve him using a bit of trickery, underhanded tactics etc. to get the edge.

As for range, you really think sanji is going to get tagged by a ranged attack. The guy who dodge a surprise ranged attacks from Katakuri with zero issues is going to get hit by a ranged attack from zoro. Fucking pre timeskip Luffy was dodging ranged attacks from Mihawk. It's quite clear that ranged attacks aren't nearly on the same level of speed as the real thing.




convict said:


> Queen hit Big Mom with a fully named last-ditch attack directed at a Yonkou. King casually impaled Sanji into a building and if he truly cared about finishing Sanji off he would have stayed to do so. Not remotely comparable. Impressive feat but not enough against people like Zoro and Kid once they release their big guns. And lets not even talk about Law as he bypasses durability entirely


The fact that queen named his doesn't change the fact that they are literally the same attack i.e. using zoan body mass and acceleration to ram into your opponent.

Already gave my thoughts on the various supernovas.




convict said:


> And yes there was some blood in the panel. Kaido was also impressed and *this is Zoro just getting started*




Yeah, that isn't blood.


convict said:


> By you and your fellow stans they are almost equal maybe. Not that they are far apart. But there is a clear difference in strength.


Oh, I agree that zoro has strength on lock. But who said sanji is relying pure on strength. This goes back the subject I raised i.e. ADVANTAGES.




convict said:


> Oda himself also refuses to comment on who would win between Luffy and Zoro as well. So? In fact @Louis-954 specifically asked Oda that question if I recall and Oda ignored the question but gave him a signed picture. Oda doesn't like being direct like that as he knows this would annoy one portion of his fanbase



Cool story. Still doesn't change the fact that they are depicted as equals by the manga.



convict said:


> In the wider world Zoro is the one whose name shines after Luffy. He is a supernova. He was regarded by multiple people to be the first mate. If he is in a different group Luffy will call that group "Zoro and the others". There is a distinction. Zoro and Sanji are not far apart but one is the first mate and the other is number 3. And it is stupid to think that the number 3 has a chance to be stronger than the number 2 who has a specific strength related goal.


It was part of the troupe though. Zoro gets more recognition outside the crew, but within the crew dynamics, they are both regarded as equals. Not to mention not being known worldwide arguably helped Oda craft the WCI story arc which relied on Sanji not having any world renow else his family would have found him easily.




convict said:


> And showing me a gag panel to make your case. Incredible. Obviously because no serious panel supports what you say.


Well then show me a serious panel that disrupts the dynamics I mentioned.




convict said:


> It had nothing to do with my response. You clearly didn't grasp it. Mihawk's portrayal is really up in the air. It is a mystery. Narratively he can either be the same level or weaker than Shanks as there are a lot of clues both ways. The RS is obviously has a limit to its durability that Zoro and Kid can reach.


See my other posts. Heck it should be easy to comprehend that the fact that I didn't outright say sanji would win means I believe they can get past the suit's durability.




convict said:


> Of course it would be of use. CoO isn't future sight but it will give you an idea of how your opponent is attacking. Did I say Sanji didn't have good combat reflexes?



You clearly seem to insinuate it given you keep bringing it up like its some sort of thing unique to zoro.



convict said:


> However, reacting to close quarter sword swings is how Zoro fights.


Yeah, it's also how sanji fights.
Due was casually dancing around multiple attacks from Judge and only started getting tagged when he lost focus due to him reminiscing about the past.

Again you keep bringing up things that sanji also possesses in arguably equal measure.



convict said:


> Zoro really needs one good hit in to get past the RS durability and that will end the fight as his fights go that way. Kid likely needs multiple attacks. But his power output and likely magnetism and AoE would circumvent the invisibility and mobility. Law's room will allow him to counter with his own mobility and he has superior CoA feats and he doesn't have to worry about the RS durability. Killer is like a slightly lesser version of Zoro.



See my posts on the super novas



convict said:


> Of course we are going to talk about portrayal. Killer is portrayed to be at Sanji's level narratively and even you cannot deny that.



I have said countless times that sanji is on the same level as the super novas save for Luffy him self who is basically on a whole other tier imho. That doesn't mean I believe killer can get a win against him same way I don't believe zoro can get a win against law despite them all being on the same tier (though it's a subject for another day).




convict said:


> If we add the fact that his Punisher may be able to injure Kaido or Big Mom and then we know for sure he can get past the durability.




Already addressed this.


convict said:


> We already know he injured Zoro with a basic scythe



Yeah. And exactly whose durability does zoro scale to exactly?

Sanji (coz who else). And we know that the raid suit is far more durable than base sanji, to an almost ridiculous degree.




convict said:


> He has shown to be able to tango with Zoro so his combat reflexes are no slouch either. But we have only seen him in one short fight. Depending on his feats there are a myriad of ways he can deal with the Invisibility and mobility



Again the topic of combat reflexes arises. Honestly....

So there are myriad of ways he can deal with invisibility and mobility? Mind sharing some for us?



convict said:


> And as I said it doesn't work like that in One Piece or this battledome unless you are equal in strength or just about. If you believe that about Sanji compared to Kid/Zoro/Law you are a fool. Simple as that.


Except strength isn't literally everything, even in a battledome. The respective abilities of the characters are also taken into account, particularly where said ability is a game changer (which the RS certainly is).




You brought up portrayal so yes, by portrayal sanji is equal to zoro. I also happen to think you are a fool so I guess we have that  in common.




convict said:


> If Dory and Broggy can fight every day for eons with a draw every day, that means that if Dory was a bit stronger than Broggy (say high diff) he would have won high diff every day. Since Zoro or Kid are stronger than Sanji and if they will fight every day fully serious without any handicaps then they will win high diff every day. Unless one of them gets your personal favorite example of a coronary vasospasm in the middle of a fight which is the reason why Kid isn't "guaranteed" a win against Sanji. But extraneous factors like that are not included in the battledome.


Abilities such as invisibility aren't extraneous factors. The RS is an ability intrinsic to the abilities of RS SANJI. it isn't a fucking random brain aneurysm or whatever bull shit idiocy you are probably going to spout.




convict said:


> Lucci/Jyabura
> Kid/Apoo
> 
> Its about the prideful personality more than anything



Jyabura's beef was mostly with Kaku who was his nigh equal. Obviously Kid will surpass Apoo but Apoo tanking his punk rotten and seriously injuring kid in one hit tells us that it isn't exactly a picnic (except off course kid gets some ear phones)



convict said:


> Think it happening in all likelihood all you want but don't start yapping about your fantasies as fact in this discussion. Sanji is no scientist. Usopp and Franky are. He is going to continue going on adventures with the strawhats he doesn't give 2 shits about those Germa shitheads. He is over them.


>Implying you need to be a scientist to rule germa

One of judge's children is going to take over and as far as we can tell, none of them are scientist. Also the kingdom had several scientists other than Judge who clearly knew their stuff regarding the tech.

The adventures of the SH is not going to continue in perpetuity. Just as with the original pirate king, the journey will end.

If you think he doesn't give a shit about the germa, you haven't been paying attention, though then again, that seems to be the story of your life.




convict said:


> All of this already addressed. They are two similarly competitive people who are like brothers. Never ever have they had a serious fight against the other. Rivalries can exist without parity especially amongst close ones. The debate isn't whether Zoro is stronger than Sanji for the most part except for some rare breed of imbeciles, rather it is about how big is the gap. If Oda wanted to continue the parity he wouldn't isolate Zoro as the first mate, a supernova, and generally lauded by everyone around him as the number 2. He also would have given Sanji a similar goal to become stronger.


Except as we have come to see, the storyline necessitated that sanji remain in the back ground (they even got his wanted poster wrong) until after his issue with his family was resolved.

Yes, zoro will be recognised by the world as the FM, but until someone within the crew refers to as such. Until the crew regard him as the clear superior to sanji, then I am sorry mate, but the debate will continue.

As for the last part, everyone and their mother knows that wanting to get stronger isn't the end all be all regarding strength. Further wanting to be strong enough to protect the crew of the one you believe will be pirate king is as great a motivator as any




convict said:


> I choose my examples to fit the person I am trying to rationalize with so I guess you hit the money.


Yeah, I don't buy it. It was a legit retarded example, something you have a habit of making.




convict said:


> And clearly you can't counter my point that portrayal matters and it isn't just about feats so we'll move on. Giving you a glaring in-your-face example served its purpose it seems.



I already pointed that portrayal is a two edged sword as sanji is portrayed as being zoro's equal.



convict said:


> Because feats is just one part of the dual tools we use to craft our arguments in the battledome genius. There can be many cases in which feats of one character are simply not enough. For example - and I don't want you to strain yourself - Killer only has had one small post-skip fight in which he was nerfed. That isn't enough to say it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to beat Sanji. That is nuts. And then you have the audacity to continue your absolute autistic opinion that not only Killer SURELY can't beat Sanji but Sanji also possibly beats kid. And you didn't point out jack shit about portrayal. Killer is Kid's number 2 and Sanji is Luffy's number 3. Portrayal is about even as Kid is weaker than Luffy even while being his main generational rival.



*Yawns* yeah, nothing of value said here. Moving on.




convict said:


> Nobody cares that you said Kid/Zoro/Law are better than Sanji in some regards. What is completely irredeemable is your position that Sanji might actually beat them. Giving them a lot of difficulty is one thing but your almost unprecedented wank is on another level.




So I am guessing nothing I say will change your mind, in which case .... I don't know.


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## Beast (Jan 23, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> If their name starts with 'L' and ends with 'uffy', the yeah I would absolutely agree with you.
> Note: referring to RS sanji.


Nah bruh, the weakest A3 member is much much stronger then RS Sanji... who is Law. 
kidd would crush him inside his shit and luffy probably 1HKOd with the given feats.

your holding Sanji way too high, Zoro and Killer I could understand but Luffy and Kidd, when his feats don’t even cut close to Laws? Yeah I don’t think so bruh.

Reactions: GODA 1 | Neutral 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 23, 2021)

Beast said:


> Nah bruh, the weakest A3 member is much much stronger then RS Sanji... who is Law.
> kidd would crush him inside his shit and luffy probably 1HKOd with the given feats.
> 
> your holding Sanji way too high, Zoro and Killer I could understand but Luffy and Kidd, when his feats don’t even cut close to Laws? Yeah I don’t think so bruh.


Sort of lost most of my zeal for this, so agree to disagree

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Beast (Jan 23, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Sort of lost most of my zeal for this, so agree to disagree


Good good... This ain’t Zoro so I don’t wanna bash too hard.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## muchentuchen (Jan 23, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> It's sad to see hate for a character warps ones mind to the extent that they cannot tell the difference between using your hands/hardening to stop an attack and taking same attack straight to the face with no defense.
> 
> Gonna respond to your other post though it will be a will. My thumbs are tired.


I'm skimming through and skipped a lot of context but I read Convict's entire quality post and then this quote of yours. I'm assuming you assume Sanji >= Law atleast in the CoA department? How do you rationalize Sanji's leg cracking to a relaxed, casual Vergo who then goes full power CoA bodybuilder against Law, only to be seriously embarrased by the doc? The neg diff by Doffy in the next arc didn't help Sanji's progress but Law played a key role - otherwise known as plot armor for Luffy - by showing one of the most hax abilities in the OPverse, the gamma knife, permanently damaging Doffy's insides no-okama (Sanji island flashbacks).

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## convict (Jan 23, 2021)

*Spoiler*: __ 







> This goes to show your absolute lack of basic comprehension. Then again, coming from the guy trying to compare taking an attack head on to taking same while actively using defensive abilities, I don't know how I came to expect much tbh.



I never did and you are jumping the gun like a lunatic again. I was told Law didn’t have good durability feats. I showed Law with good durability feats. Sanji has none that can compare. He doesn’t have hype that would point him to doing that either. Thus Law has better durability as of now. And it makes sense as Law is one of the Auction House Trio that he would have superior CoA to Luffy’s number 3 who doesn’t even specialize in CoA.




> Let's go back to the sanji Vs Absalom fight shall we. Without invisibility, Absalom was a literal curbstomp in sanji's favour. With it, it became more of a low - mid diff fight.
> 
> Now does that mean Absalom is anywhere close to Sanji's power lvl. Only a retard would think that.
> 
> ...



So not once did you refute my point. Once again. You acknowledged the fact that Sanji giving Zoro/Kid a high diff fight is evidence that they are not guaranteed to beat him. That is fact in front of everyone and you can’t take that back. You directly stated as such and I quoted you. Once again, you didn’t refute it. You can choose to take that back now and concede this point if you want instead of skating around it.

And remember that this is pre-skip. Haki is not a factor. No one is saying having invisibility is not an advantage and you are stupid for assuming as such. However, Zoro and Kid have the tools to deal with it. As I have described time and time again and they will deal with that. And nami being a hostage was another reason the fight was hard. Citing these advantages as evidence that it would be impossible for Killer to overcome them or as evidence that Kid or Zoro may not be able to is delusional just as saying Sanji’s increased mobility would. 

Zoro and Kid have their own advantages in a fight. Even prior to their powerups Zoro had much more endurance, he was more durable, physically stronger, he was more lethal, he had more range, he had more tenacity and willpower. These are all still there. But now to combat Sanji’s increased durability and invisibility Zoro’s attack power is significantly increased as is his ability to control Haki which he has been training non-stop the past few days for this very fight. And Kid has been training with Luffy all this time improving his own power in separate ways.



> Not sure what is being said here. Might be a typo.



It isn’t. Check again. On your laptop maybe if scrolling back and forth through your phone is too much trouble.



> Yeah, so now is the part in which you tell me how killer gets past invisibility, flight, speed and the increased durability.
> 
> I have said that I don't see killer breaching the defense coz he doesn't have the feats yet. When he does I will be the first one here to give my concession in that regard.
> 
> I have said that even if he did, the advantages are simply too much and as I laid out in my post, unlike zoro, killer hasn't shown the sheer grit and tenacity to keep going.



The same way Zoro does. The same way I have been talking about consistently. Through combat reflexes and Haki. Haki doesn’t make invisibility obsolete but it is a way to make it manageable.

So looks like you actually agree that Killer might be able to beat Sanji but he doesn’t have the feats yet. Based on their portrayal I agree with that. But I also would like to reiterate that he is surely about to mount up some feats against Kaido and Meme.



> Yeah, I am going to need proof of that. Not to mention said five coloured string attack literally didn't slow sanji down until he got restrained by Parasite which would own most top commanders by feats.



How about the fact that Law blocked it with his arms. You think he can block Rengoku Onigiri with his arms?

Knowing you I wouldn’t be surprised. Of course it slowed Sanji down. It made him bloody all over. But he recovered. If he got close to getting oneshot by an attack Law could block with his arms and innate CoA that would be beyond embarrassing and the gulf between him and Law would be overwhelming. Not just very obvious as is the caser.



> The mobility, COO and speed are arguably just as important. It will be hard to land a hit when you can't tell were your opponent is.



No by far the biggest advantages are Durability and invisibility. The mobility, CoO, and speed were always there. Durability was severely lacking and this provides a good buff. The invisibility is also something new that Sanji never had before. These are the 2 facets which Oda highlighted to show Sanji surviving against King. Without them he would have been dead. As would he if King actually stayed on to fight as opposed to ignoring him and moving on.



> Sanji's forte is also reaction time. Like you keep bringing up reaction all over your post like its not something sanji excels at.



Reaction time is more relevant in context of defending against unseen attacks. Which is why I am focusing on Zoro’s reaction time. Reaction time is integral in defending than attacking. Since Sanji is invisible Zoro’s reaction time against Sanji’s attacks will be invaluable. Sanji will also need good reaction time to avoid Zoro’s Big Guns. Which he will for a while. But he will be tagged eventually and that spells the end. Sanji hasn’t shown the ability to withstand Zoro’s heavy hitters when the suit is eventually overcome.



> There is no evidence that it wasn't. And except we take the premise that his legs no longer constitute a part of his body, it is a fair assumption to be made.



Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that. You can’t ask me to prove a negative. That is a fundamental aspect of debate. You need evidence to prove it impacted Sanji’s leg. What do we know about it? Sanji wasn’t limping beforehand. Using it freely. Oda never drew an image of Sanji receiving a fracture before, he only drew it when Vergo hits him.

Human bones either fracture or they don’t What determines how easily they fracture is the strength and consistency of the bones, not whether the surrounding tissue is bruised as much. Vergo fractured Sanji’s leg. Try to skirt around that fact all you want. It is fact.



> If you think cutting up a meteor is the same as cutting up a bunch of rocks, then I honestly have to question how old you are.
> 
> Doffy always cackles in fights except for when something is said that annoys him. Heck after radio knife, he took hits from G2 Luffy and kept cackling.



When Doffy gets serious he doesn’t just monkey around casually. When he actually went battle mode against Luffy it was a serious fight until he thought Luffy was exhausted and had nothing more to offer.

And once again, you fail to comprehend my point. My point was that it is not a good offensive feat to cut up part of a meteor as there is no Haki protecting the meteor from being cut up. Pre-skip Zoro could cut a smaller chunk of it. It does not speak to how that would allow Doffy to cut up top tier fighters who are defending. Even Law’s arms coated with CoA was enough to defend. This was a speed and range feat more than anything.



> Judge seems to be snack tier. And tails are some of the strongest parts of a dinosaur more so Drake's model which clearly has weak arms.



No he isn’t. That is like saying Reiju is smoothie tier or Ace is Aokiji tier. Really embarrassing opinion to shove in out of the blue just because he is Sanji’s father. No reason to assume he is stronger than Daifuku/Oven if that.

It was a casual swipe of his tail as if he was swiping a fly. That’s like Hyouzu protecting himself from Luffy’s attack in Fishman Island. If that is your claim to fame about Sanji’s durability it shows to me you truly don’t have much ground to stand on when trying to defend his durability.



> Zoro is intelligent in that he learns moves easily. However when it comes to actually battle smarts, he is a good fighter but not as smart as sanji in that regard. Nearly all of zoro's fight involve him using a technique to power through whereas a lot of sanji fights involve him using a bit of trickery, underhanded tactics etc. to get the edge.
> 
> As for range, you really think sanji is going to get tagged by a ranged attack. The guy who dodge a surprise ranged attacks from Katakuri with zero issues is going to get hit by a ranged attack from zoro. Fucking pre timeskip Luffy was dodging ranged attacks from Mihawk. It's quite clear that ranged attacks aren't nearly on the same level of speed as the real thing.



Figuring out the essence of the opponents' advantage and creating new attacks to counter that is the epitome of combat intelligence and quick thinking. Combat and situational awareness is Zoro’s forte. When the Yeti Cool brothers sneak attacked them, who was the one who saved everyone (Sanji included) with split-second decision making to cut up the point of landing so that when they are passed out they would have a safeplace to be unconscious?

This surprise attack of Katakuri was flicking a Jelly bean that he never once used again when he got serious. A whole fight with Zoro’s serious swings harassing Sanji are bound to at least limit his mobility so that Zoro can come in for the clincher.



> The fact that queen named his doesn't change the fact that they are literally the same attack i.e. using zoan body mass and acceleration to ram into your opponent.



One was directed at a Yonkou. An attack that Queen knew was a last stand attack to tame the raging monster who could kill them all. He obviously had to put in his all. The other was against some guy who King didn’t even bother to make sure was dead.

Very poor analogy. A punch is basically using your shoulder and arm to swing – does that mean all punches are the same? Come on now.



> Yeah, that isn't blood.



Dark splotches getting sprayed in the general vicinity that wasn’t even the point of impact? Sure looks like it to me.




> Oh, I agree that zoro has strength on lock. But who said sanji is relying pure on strength. This goes back the subject I raised i.e. ADVANTAGES.



By more strength I meant more overall power.



> Cool story. Still doesn't change the fact that they are depicted as equals by the manga.



Good. At least you won’t start spewing garbage that Oda never answers the question of Zoro vs Sanji as implication that it is debateable. Oda won’t directly answer these questions. He never answers Zoro vs Luffy either.

And portrayed as equals my ass. One of them is known as the first mate. One of them was a supernova. One of them is acknowledged the most after the captain in strength. One of them is always spoken by Luffy as the protector when he is away and only when Zoro isn’t around is Sanji then spoken of. One of them was originally given a bounty alongside his captain (Which Sanji had required a whole other arc to increase to Zoro’s level when Zoro was absent). One of them is given the role of combating the strongest villain after the main one. Only one of them is fixated on a strength related goal and tirelessly works to achieve that.



> It was part of the troupe though. Zoro gets more recognition outside the crew, but within the crew dynamics, they are both regarded as equals. Not to mention not being known worldwide arguably helped Oda craft the WCI story arc which relied on Sanji not having any world renow else his family would have found him easily.



Nami specifically said Zoro is the toughest is one of the few times I recall about power being mentioned. Zoro, Luffy, and Sanji are known as the strongest overall, that much is sure within the crew, but never was it stated internally that Luffy is the strongest in that trio because the crew doesn't talk in such terms. Neither does Oda as I already proved.

And it isn’t like Zoro was very well known worldwide either having only been able to catch 5million level pirates. It was only during the start of their adventures that they became recognized worldwide. So he didn't really have much of a starting advantage either.



> Well then show me a serious panel that disrupts the dynamics I mentioned.



All the panels showing Zoro specifically highlighted as the number 2? They simply aren’t serious rivals when shit is going down which is why you don’t have any panels depicting this anymore than brotherly fun. If there are no panels seriously depicting them as equals it serves to reason that there are no panels to disrupt that. You can't disrupt what isn't there in the first place.



> You clearly seem to insinuate it given you keep bringing it up like its some sort of thing unique to zoro.



Again, Combat reflexes are essential to defending against attacks last minute which might be necessary with Sanji’s invisibility. They aren’t as necessary when launching attacks. Because they may be more relevant to defend against Sanji I am highlighting Zoro’s combat reflexes.



> Yeah, it's also how sanji fights.
> Due was casually dancing around multiple attacks from Judge and only started getting tagged when he lost focus due to him reminiscing about the past.



Zoro’s fights are literally all blocking and parrying in which reflexes are essential as one hit could spell the end of the fight. And Sanji has good reflexes too but once again, this is more relevant for Zoro in context of defending against an invisible person’s attacks.



> I have said countless times that sanji is on the same level as the super novas save for Luffy him self who is basically on a whole other tier imho. That doesn't mean I believe killer can get a win against him same way I don't believe zoro can get a win against law despite them all being on the same tier (though it's a subject for another day).



So Killer CAN’T beat Sanji. Zoro CAN’T beat Law. Sanji CAN possibly beat Zoro, Kid, or Law.

You keep outdoing yourself with these fascinating hot takes.



> Yeah. And exactly whose durability does zoro scale to exactly?
> 
> Sanji (coz who else). And we know that the raid suit is far more durable than base sanji, to an almost ridiculous degree.



No Zoro is more durable than Sanji. He is a CoA specialist and Sanji is a CoO specialist. Zoro’s is probably more on the level of high tier supernova who are also likely CoA specialists like Kid perhaps. Honestly the level of pure wank. It is directly stated that Zoro focuses on armament but still you scale broken leg to Zoro in durability.



> So there are myriad of ways he can deal with invisibility and mobility? Mind sharing some for us?



I have talked about this multiple times. Utilizing Haki to anticipate attacks and using his defensive ability and reflexes to block. Counter with his own strikes. Sanji will get more hits in but one good hit is all Zoro needs. Victory is inexorable for Zoro.



> Except strength isn't literally everything, even in a battledome. The respective abilities of the characters are also taken into account, particularly where said ability is a game changer (which the RS certainly is).



Once again I mean overall strength ie power. Taking everything into account including all abilities.



> I also happen to think you are a fool



Congratulations.



> Abilities such as invisibility aren't extraneous factors. The RS is an ability intrinsic to the abilities of RS SANJI. it isn't a fucking random brain aneurysm or whatever bull shit idiocy you are probably going to spout.



Read my post again dingus. The raid suit is an intrinsic part of Sanji’s power. I have always maintained that.



> Jyabura's beef was mostly with Kaku who was his nigh equal. Obviously Kid will surpass Apoo but Apoo tanking his punk rotten and seriously injuring kid in one hit tells us that it isn't exactly a picnic (except off course kid gets some ear phones)



No Jyabura and Kaku were in the same vicinity which is when they argued. When all of them were in the same spot it was Lucci and Jyabura who kept arguing back and forth. And Kid and Apoo were acting as bickering rivals whenever they were together even though Kid is displayed as one of the closest to Luffy and Apoo is middle of the pack when it comes to supernova. These examples dismantle your notion that friendly bickering only happens to nigh equals.



> Implying you need to be a scientist to rule germa
> 
> One of judge's children is going to take over and as far as we can tell, none of them are scientist. Also the kingdom had several scientists other than Judge who clearly knew their stuff regarding the tech.
> 
> ...



He wants nothing to do with the Germa Kingdom. Whole Cake was a character development for Sanji to completely erase their shadow and stain from his life. Once again your raving fantasies should be kept in your bedroom and serve no place in a debate here. Until something like that happens don’t say stupid shit like “as the certain future king of a science kingdom Sanji is equal to Zoro”. Nonsensical.

Just because he wants them out of his life which he obviously does, doesn’t preclude him from saving them. He has no reason to go back especially since Reiju and co. are there. He can continue his own life. Sanji will be with the strawhats until very late. Why shouldn’t he retire and do his own thing when he is an old man? And even if your wet dream comes to pass Sanji probably wouldn’t be in his prime anyway so that role has nothing to do with strength.



> Yes, zoro will be recognised by the world as the FM, but until someone within the crew refers to as such. Until the crew regard him as the clear superior to sanji, then I am sorry mate, but the debate will continue.
> 
> As for the last part, everyone and their mother knows that wanting to get stronger isn't the end all be all regarding strength. Further wanting to be strong enough to protect the crew of the one you believe will be pirate king is as great a motivator as any



The crew internally don’t even comment that Luffy is superior to the rest but he is. Luffy is socially at the top of the hierarchy and strength wise as well but the crew doesn’t need to say it. Just like Oda doesn’t need to say it. He will never have the monster trio directly be compared in strength like that. But when shit hits the fan Zoro is next up to lead. Afterwards it is Sanji.

That motivation to wanting to be strong enough to protect the crew is shared by all strawhats it isn’t specific to Sanji. Sanji’s specific goal is to find all blue. You have got to be blind as a bat to discount the significance of Zoro’s goal. That Sanji will also passively surpass all other swordsmen alongside Zoro in strength just because he is so called “rival equal in strength” according to you. Having a goal isn’t the be-all-end-all but Zoro will surely surpass that goal. And if Sanji can surpass all other swordsmen too in addition to finding his own goals and without training to do so that is a pure insult to Zoro’s goal. Sanji will end up strong too in order to protect everyone he will be top tier and close to admirals in strength but he won’t be as strong as Zoro. Impossible.



> Yeah, I don't buy it. It was a legit retarded example, something you have a habit of making.



We are continuing with the streak of having nothing worthwhile to actually combat the example. Concession accepted then.



> I already pointed that portrayal is a two edged sword as sanji is portrayed as being zoro's equal.



Which was debunked thoroughly. You said nothing to counter any of my points and in fact evade them, all the while scribbling this rubbish in the end.



> *Yawns* yeah, nothing of value said here. Moving on.



Again. Concession accepted. I notice a theme.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Igor (Jan 23, 2021)

muchentuchen said:


> I'm skimming through and skipped a lot of context but I read Convict's entire quality post and then this quote of yours. I'm assuming you assume Sanji >= Law atleast in the CoA department? How do you rationalize Sanji's leg cracking to a relaxed, casual Vergo who then goes full power CoA bodybuilder against Law, only to be seriously embarrased by the doc? The neg diff by Doffy in the next arc didn't help Sanji's progress but Law played a key role - otherwise known as plot armor for Luffy - by showing one of the most hax abilities in the OPverse, the gamma knife, permanently damaging Doffy's insides no-okama (Sanji island flashbacks).



Now let's talk about updated achievements:

Daifuku with the genius could slice a fleet of ships using casual attacks:


Then he turned into a huge genius (which must be even stronger) and Sanji could block several of his attacks with his blade, and Sanji just using CoA:



If Sanji can block Daifuku's bisent, whether with his giant genius he was extremely powerful, do you really think Sanji falls behind Smoker and Law when it comes to haki?

Even more adding the durability of the costume, which should make its durability and its kicks much harder, I doubt Sanji is losing in that department to PH Smoker lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

Law cutting Vergo despite his full body hardening is a testament to his insane attack power who heavily relies on his devil fruit.
Hence why Vergo was still alive despite being split in half, no okama.
It's like previously where we talked about his durability, ignoring his COA and his block.

*Sanji in base was fighting X Drake in his full Zoan form and did not sustain any injury,* and he would physically (durability) or energy wise ( coa) be outclassed by Law?
Yeah, doesn't make sense. Law has one of the most OP fruit in the story, hence why i would favor him, he's not beating Sanji simply relying on his physical stats though.
If Sanji can fuck with XDrake despite his Zoan form, a fellow Supernova, in base, yeah i'm not worried about his ability to handle Law 's COA nor his durability...

Law fought. Smoker did not see him overwhelm him through the use of his coa nor thanks to his durability. He was teleporting, using "mes", and "tact" all over the place.
I don't know where Law clear superiority was  portrayed when it comes to COA or durability.
Are we disscussing if Law poses a threat to Sanji without the Ope ope?
in which case, i'm out guys. It was fun.


Anyway, we were initially talking about Killer....who doesn't pose the same threat at all.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 23, 2021)

convict said:


> I never did and you are jumping the gun like a lunatic again. I was told Law didn’t have good durability feats. I showed Law with good durability feats.



the context was directly in comparison to sanji afterwhich you produced said feat of Law using haki to block doffy's five coloured strings.




convict said:


> Sanji has none that can compare. He doesn’t have hype that would point him to doing that either.


sanji literally tanked the attack without haki. he does have the hype as being the man who will rival the WSS.




convict said:


> Thus Law has better durability as of now. And it makes sense as Law is one of the Auction House Trio that he would have superior CoA to Luffy’s number 3 who doesn’t even specialize in CoA.



Law really doesnt though. also just because COA isnt sanji's speciality doesnt make it Law's either. hence it is reasonable for them to be comparable in that regard.



convict said:


> So not once did you refute my point. Once again. You acknowledged the fact that Sanji giving Zoro/Kid a high diff fight is evidence that they are not guaranteed to beat him. That is fact in front of everyone and you can’t take that back. You directly stated as such and I quoted you. Once again, you didn’t refute it. You can choose to take that back now and concede this point if you want instead of skating around it.


it seems that you are finally getting closer to understanding what was being debated though in the end your comprehension seems to have failed you. i said that sanji with the raid suit has advantages that make it difficult for them to guarantee a win against him. the level of difficulty for the fight is tbh secondary to the primary point.




convict said:


> And remember that this is pre-skip. Haki is not a factor. No one is saying having invisibility is not an advantage and you are stupid for assuming as such.


haki isnt a factor here either except you are talking about COA. From everyone's perception, once sanji went invisible, he said to have literally disappeared. 




convict said:


> However, Zoro and Kid have the tools to deal with it.


Now we are talking. Lets seee...




convict said:


> As I have described time and time again and they will deal with that.


Nope. Nope. all you have done is scream COMBAT REFLEX .... COMBAT REFLEX like a retard as if it something sanji doesnt have in equal measure. hopefully things will be different this time.




convict said:


> And nami being a hostage was another reason the fight was hard. Citing these advantages as evidence that it would be impossible for Killer to overcome them or as evidence that Kid or Zoro may not be able to is delusional just as saying Sanji’s increased mobility would.


ahhh.. and he misses the point again. the moment absalom turned invisible, even without his threat to nami, it automatically became harder to actually win against him because, HE WAS INVISIBLE. Now sanji isnt fodder to Killer, at all. and he has the added advantage of the suit which means Killer just isnt getting a W from this fight. kidd and zoro are another matter entirely. again, already gave my comprehensive view in that regard




convict said:


> Zoro and Kid have their own advantages in a fight. Even prior to their powerups Zoro had much more endurance, he was more durable, physically stronger, he was more lethal, he had more range, he had more tenacity and willpower.


Edurance. yes
Durability. nope. not exactly had a lot of feats in this regard post time skip
physically stronger. nope
Lethal. Depends on the context
Range. yes but cancelled out by mobility
Tenacity. yes but cancelled out by battle smarts
willpower. Debateable




convict said:


> hese are all still there. But now to combat Sanji’s increased durability and invisibility Zoro’s attack power is significantly increased as is his ability to control Haki which he has been training non-stop the past few days for this very fight. And Kid has been training with Luffy all this time improving his own power in separate ways.


yeah, these are all cool stories except i already gave both of them the benefit of doubt regarding their ability to hurt RS Sanji so not sure why this is being brought up.





convict said:


> The same way Zoro does. The same way I have been talking about consistently. Through combat reflexes and Haki. Haki doesn’t make invisibility obsolete but it is a way to make it manageable


again, sanji also has combat reflexes. and once again RS SANJI LITERAL APPEARS TO HAVE DISAPPEARED WHEN HE GOES INVISIBLE. ing even asked him to try disappearing again coz he legit thought that was what happened. P1 also thought sanji had disappeared even when sanji was right there.

there is also the fact that none of them are particularly good at COO.



convict said:


> So looks like you actually agree that Killer might be able to beat Sanji but he doesn’t have the feats yet.


Comprehension, boy. Seriously. i said even IF killer had the feat to breach RS SANJI' s Defense, he doesnt have the sheer grit and tenacity to suggest he can keep up the fight after several hits.




convict said:


> How about the fact that Law blocked it with his arms. You think he can block Rengoku Onigiri with his arms?


if i said yes, how would you prove me wrong exactly?

what feats does rengoku onigiri from pre enma zoro have exactly?




convict said:


> Knowing you I wouldn’t be surprised. Of course it slowed Sanji down. It made him bloody all over.


how exactly was sanji slowed down? he kept at it and even put doffy on the defensive. the fact that he was bleeding from superficial wounds really doesnt help your case considering all the strawhates have been through. he had a fucking knife put through his torso and not only pulled it out, wrecked his assailant but also went on to fight oz with the rest of the SH like nothing happened




convict said:


> If he got close to getting oneshot by an attack Law could block with his arms and innate CoA that would be beyond embarrassing and the gulf between him and Law would be overwhelming. Not just very obvious as is the caser.


how was he close to being oneshot? and how is law using COA being compared to sanji who wasnt using COA?


wow, you really are special, arent you?




convict said:


> No by far the biggest advantages are Durability and invisibility. The mobility, CoO, and speed were always there.



Mobility and speed are greatly increased thanks to the rocket boots. COO is always there, but its clear that when your enemy literally cant see you, having the better COO decrease the already bleak likelihood of them tagging you.



convict said:


> Durability was severely lacking and this provides a good buff.




it never really wasnt.





convict said:


> Reaction time is more relevant in context of defending against unseen attacks.


Reaction time is equally as relevant in the context of anticipating counter attacks which sanji will certainly anticipate given who his opponents are.



convict said:


> Which is why I am focusing on Zoro’s reaction time.


you are focusing on zoro's coz you believe he wins. i am focusing on sanji's because i believe that isnt the case. 




convict said:


> Reaction time is integral in defending than attacking. Since Sanji is invisible Zoro’s reaction time against Sanji’s attacks will be invaluable.


Reaction time is equally integral to avoiding counter attacks which sanji certainly knows will come. since sanji know's zoro's attacking strength, his reaction time will be equally invaluable.


convict said:


> Sanji will also need good reaction time to avoid Zoro’s Big Guns.


yes. and he has the reaction time.


convict said:


> Which he will for a while. But he will be tagged eventually and that spells the end.


why exactly will he be tagged eventually? why is it a certainty exactly? coz i already accepted that it COULD happen hence the lack of guarantees, but you believe it to be a certainty. so please, educate us.


convict said:


> Sanji hasn’t shown the ability to withstand Zoro’s heavy hitters when the suit is eventually overcome.


he doesnt need to now does he. heck my arguments are and were always premised on zoro, kid and law being able to get past raid suit's durability. you would know this if you actually read.



convict said:


> Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that. You can’t ask me to prove a negative. That is a fundamental aspect of debate. You need evidence to prove it impacted Sanji’s leg. What do we know about it? Sanji wasn’t limping beforehand. Using it freely. Oda never drew an image of Sanji receiving a fracture before, he only drew it when Vergo hits him.


imagine asking me to prove that sanji's legs are part of his body. if it was said that sanji's body except for his legs were damaged, you might have a point. But it wasnt now was it?

it was said that his body was damaged. hence since you appear to be GODA himself, kindly explain to us why his body wouldnt include his legs.



convict said:


> Human bones either fracture or they don’t What determines how easily they fracture is the strength and consistency of the bones, not whether the surrounding tissue is bruised as much. Vergo fractured Sanji’s leg. Try to skirt around that fact all you want. It is fact.


there is only one fact. Sanji's body was damaged and thus, wasnt in peak condition. at all. 




convict said:


> And once again, you fail to comprehend my point. My point was that it is not a good offensive feat to cut up part of a meteor as there is no Haki protecting the meteor from being cut up. Pre-skip Zoro could cut a smaller chunk of it. It does not speak to how that would allow Doffy to cut up top tier fighters who are defending. Even Law’s arms coated with CoA was enough to defend. This was a speed and range feat more than anything.


if that was your point (i.e. the meteor wasnt protected by haki) then its a fiercely stupid one. by that logic, zoro cutting pica's body sint impressive coz it had no haki protection. and please, i am legit dying to see you legit argue that pre-time skip zoro could cut up meteors

law defending against doffy's attack simply means his haki is strong. it doesnt mean that any hilly billy with a sword can cut a meeor coz its JuST rOCkS. 



convict said:


> No he isn’t. That is like saying Reiju is smoothie tier or Ace is Aokiji tier. Really embarrassing opinion to shove in out of the blue just because he is Sanji’s father. No reason to assume he is stronger than Daifuku/Oven if that.


given that Judge was matched up against snack during the germa escape, it is a reasonable assumption to make. Oven? the same dude that got blitz by sanji? Sanji matched daifuku's largest genie form in base. doesnt seem like something he could do to Judge's attack.


convict said:


> It was a casual swipe of his tail as if he was swiping a fly. That’s like Hyouzu protecting himself from Luffy’s attack in Fishman Island. If that is your claim to fame about Sanji’s durability it shows to me you truly don’t have much ground to stand on when trying to defend his durability.


nice touch trying to compare drake's attack to swiping a fly. again for reptiles, the tail is literally oen of the strongest, if not the strongest part of the body. he took the attack and was barely bruised.


now, where are those durability feats for Killer again? 


convict said:


> Figuring out the essence of the opponents' advantage and creating new attacks to counter that is the epitome of combat intelligence and quick thinking.


yeah, and its something sanji has numerous feats of doing. whereas for zoro, all you can get for zoro is ...


convict said:


> Combat and situational awareness is Zoro’s forte.


yeah, its sanji's forte moreso than zoro's.


convict said:


> When the Yeti Cool brothers sneak attacked them, who was the one who saved everyone (Sanji included) with split-second decision making to cut up the point of landing so that when they are passed out they would have a safeplace to be unconscious?


this is the best you can bring up? at that moment sanji was in nami's much weaker body hence obviously he will be taken out briefly. Cutting away a threat is common sense. its not some massive feat of situational awareness you seem to make it out to be. i mean if i was falling on sharp rocks, its only common sense to try and change my landing point




convict said:


> This surprise attack of Katakuri was flicking a Jelly bean that he never once used again when he got serious.


yeah, the point is whether or not katakuri was serious (though he was serious about killing sanji and the jelly bean was his onlly ranged option). the point is that sanji wasnt even aware of him in the first place. thats is actaul situational awareness by the way. Not just detecting the obvious, but being aware of the obscured. heck, sanji showed that he could detect and take down a sniper when he was literally in the scope. 




convict said:


> A whole fight with Zoro’s serious swings harassing Sanji are bound to at least limit his mobility so that Zoro can come in for the clincher.


how so? sanji can fly. zoro isnt very good at COO and wouldnt even know what to swing at. sanji could literally be 100 of meters over his head like with P1, and he wouldnt know it.


convict said:


> One was directed at a Yonkou. An attack that Queen knew was a last stand attack to tame the raging monster who could kill them all. He obviously had to put in his all. The other was against some guy who King didn’t even bother to make sure was dead.
> 
> Very poor analogy. A punch is basically using your shoulder and arm to swing – does that mean all punches are the same? Come on now.


very poor analogy. the punch analogy i mean. they are literally the same attack. diving headlong at the opponent using speed and zoan mass. literally all Queen did was jump upside down and let gravity do the work. 


convict said:


> Dark splotches getting sprayed in the general vicinity that wasn’t even the point of impact? Sure looks like it to me.


yes, it doesnt look like that.


convict said:


> By more strength I meant more overall power.


sure, sure...


convict said:


> and portrayed as equals my ass. One of them is known as the first mate. One of them was a supernova. One of them is acknowledged the most after the captain in strength.


you keep bringing up external acknowledgments and i keep pointing to what matters more in the context of the story i.e. the crew's internal dynamics. 



convict said:


> One of them is always spoken by Luffy as the protector when he is away and only when Zoro isn’t around is Sanji


when has luffy ever referred to zoro as 'the protector' when sanji was there?



convict said:


> One of them was originally given a bounty alongside his captain (Which Sanji had required a whole other arc to increase to Zoro’s level when Zoro was absent).


 Sanji was absent for nearly all of dressrosa. as for the bounty as i pointed out, sanji being relatively unknown was a crucial part of why WCI was possible in the first place. hence why even when he got a bounty, it was the wrong face.


convict said:


> One of them is given the role of combating the strongest villain after the main one.


yet sanji consistently has an easier time taking down his opponent.




convict said:


> Only one of them is fixated on a strength related goal and tirelessly works to achieve that.


yet Sanji has never been left behind despite barely being shown training. Clearly Oda is invested in the dynamic as well.


convict said:


> Nami specifically said Zoro is the toughest is one of the few times I recall about power being mentioned.


yeah, can i get a scan for this.


convict said:


> Zoro, Luffy, and Sanji are known as the strongest overall, that much is sure within the crew, but never was it stated internally that Luffy is the strongest in that trio because the crew doesn't talk in such terms. Neither does Oda as I already proved.


the fact that Luffy is the strongest is something that is acknowledge, particularly by zoro. he is also consistently the guy whom they all put their faith in to beat the strongest villian of each arc, indicating that he is clearly the one they regard as the strongest.


convict said:


> And it isn’t like Zoro was very well known worldwide either having only been able to catch 5million level pirates. It was only during the start of their adventures that they became recognized worldwide. So he didn't really have much of a starting advantage either.


they became recognized as the SH crew with zoro being the only one other than Luffy to have a bounty hence them being the only ones that were world famous. it wasnt until Ennies Lobby that sanji got a bounty and even then, it was the wrong face which would obviously make it difficullt for his familiy to know for sure that it was him.




convict said:


> All the panels showing Zoro specifically highlighted as the number 2?



the panels highlight zoro and sanji as luffy's most trusted subordinates. 



convict said:


> They simply aren’t serious rivals when shit is going down


yeah obviously they arent going to be bickering when things are serious. 


convict said:


> which is why you don’t have any panels depicting this anymore than brotherly fun.


and you dont have any panel depicting zoro as the clear superior


convict said:


> If there are no panels seriously depicting them as equals it serves to reason that there are no panels to disrupt that.


see above. also the fact that sanji has an easier time taking down his opponents than zoro clearly depicts equality. further, in their fight as zombies of moria, they were dead even.


convict said:


> You can't disrupt what isn't there in the first place.


it is there though.


convict said:


> Again, Combat reflexes are essential to defending against attacks last minute which might be necessary with Sanji’s invisibility.


and they are essential to defend against last minute counter attacks which will be necessary given zoro's cutting ability.


convict said:


> They aren’t as necessary when launching attacks.


except for when a counter will be expected. literally no one in the crew knows how tenacious zoro is than sanji.


convict said:


> Because they may be more relevant to defend against Sanji I am highlighting Zoro’s combat reflexes.


see above. combat reflexes are relevant whether you are attacking or defending. moreso when you know what your opponent is capable of.


convict said:


> Zoro’s fights are literally all blocking and parrying in which reflexes are essential as one hit could spell the end of the fight.


 and sanji's fights involve him using his skills and smarts to pull a win or gain an advantage.




convict said:


> And Sanji has good reflexes too but once again, this is more relevant for Zoro in context of defending against an invisible person’s attacks.



it is just as relevant in the context of expecting a counter attack.


convict said:


> So Killer CAN’T beat Sanji. Zoro CAN’T beat Law. Sanji CAN possibly beat Zoro, Kid, or Law.
> 
> You keep outdoing yourself with these fascinating hot takes.



yeah, just when you were getting so close to understanding the simple concept of advantages and how they relate to fights.


convict said:


> No Zoro is more durable than Sanji.


feats?



convict said:


> He is a CoA specialist and Sanji is a CoO specialist.


yes he is, and his focus is almost entirely on channeling COA into his swords. he isnt a full body specialist like vergo.




convict said:


> Zoro’s is probably more on the level of high tier supernova who are also likely CoA specialists like Kid perhaps.


well thats good for them i guess



convict said:


> It is directly stated that Zoro focuses on armament but still you scale broken leg to Zoro in durability.


its directly shown that sanji has the strongest body able to withstand high water pressure like a fishman. again, zoro's focus has been almost entirely on his use of hardened blades. 


convict said:


> I have talked about this multiple times. Utilizing Haki to anticipate attacks and using his defensive ability and reflexes to block.



except you cant use haki to anticipate RS coz from the perspective of other haki users, he literally disappears. and reflexes arent exclusive to them either.

again already gave my full thoughts on this in my other post.



convict said:


> Counter with his own strikes. Sanji will get more hits in but one good hit is all Zoro needs.



there is no guarantee that zoro will get that good hit in the first place, you knwo sort of the point.


convict said:


> Victory is inexorable for Zoro.


yeah, i can see why i am wasting my time


convict said:


> Once again I mean overall strength ie power. Taking everything into account including all abilities.




well you clearly arent doing that. as i have explained countless time, haki so far cant sense RS sanji (again it is like he literal disappears). and thats only the half of it. you keep relying on something that has not been shown to work against RS Sanji


convict said:


> Congratulations


thanks.


convict said:


> Read my post again dingus. The raid suit is an intrinsic part of Sanji’s power. I have always maintained that.


yet you keep bringing retarded examples like Akainu suffering from... cant be bothered to type it out coz it absolutely retarded in the first place. also "dingus"? again, how old are you?




convict said:


> And Kid and Apoo were acting as bickering rivals whenever they were together even though Kid is displayed as one of the closest to Luffy and Apoo is middle of the pack when it comes to supernova.


dont recall Lucci and Jyabura bickering. as for kid and Apoo, kid has zero feats to put him even approach Luffy's level. law was also depiceted as a fellow rival of luffy and we all know how that turned out.


convict said:


> He wants nothing to do with the Germa Kingdom. Whole Cake was a character development for Sanji to completely erase their shadow and stain from his life. Once again your raving fantasies should be kept in your bedroom and serve no place in a debate here. Until something like that happens don’t say stupid shit like “as the certain future king of a science kingdom Sanji is equal to Zoro”. Nonsensical.


yep, no reading comprehension. WCI did have sanji overcoming and (in a literal sense) rising above his childhood trauma. but it also had sanji and his captain being saved by the germa. it also had him being finally acknowledged as a true germa hence the gift of the stealth black, his literal birthright. the current arc has him show that he is more than willing to use the suit and he has consistently brought up the fact that the tech is quite impressive showing that even germa tech can do good if used with the right intent. it also had him praising Momo for standing up for his name, something sanji will clearly also deal with given that everyone on the planet knows it now.

is it possible that i could be wrong? yes. is it possible that i could be right? also yes.

i dont have fantasies. i read information from the manga and i make speculations i find reasonable based on the information at present. this is what most fans of any piece of fiction do., including nearly everyone here. i dont know why it makes you so mad though clearly it does.

from the rest of your post, i can tell that you are a child or at least special. so i have lost interest in doing this (with you atleast). just gonna finish up real quick.




convict said:


> Just because he wants them out of his life which he obviously does, doesn’t preclude him from saving them. He has no reason to go back especially since Reiju and co. are there. He can continue his own life. Sanji will be with the strawhats until very late. Why shouldn’t he retire and do his own thing when he is an old man? And even if your wet dream comes to pass Sanji probably wouldn’t be in his prime anyway so that role has nothing to do with strength.


again, based on my interpretation of the information we have, it is far more likely that the crew will be disbanded after the last war. the fact that reiju is there gives him a reason to go back. the fact that he can see the utility of germa tech gives him a reason to go back. and sanji would be doing his own thing, using tech and his culinary skills to help people.

again most of your post here is just childish rant. sad really.




convict said:


> The crew internally don’t even comment that Luffy is superior to the rest but he is.


they acknowledge this fact by putting all their faith in him to take down the biggest threats in every arc. 


convict said:


> Luffy is socially at the top of the hierarchy and strength wise as well but the crew doesn’t need to say it. Just like Oda doesn’t need to say it. He will never have the monster trio directly be compared in strength like that. But when shit hits the fan Zoro is next up to lead. Afterwards it is Sanji.



such as. and please dont say thriller bark coz literally everyone contributed equally.



convict said:


> That motivation to wanting to be strong enough to protect the crew is shared by all strawhats it isn’t specific to Sanji.


yet sanji is the one with the talent and skill to take that motivation and turn it into real strength.


convict said:


> Sanji’s specific goal is to find all blue. You have got to be blind as a bat to discount the significance of Zoro’s goal.


yeah, you will have to take that up with Oda. 




convict said:


> That Sanji will also passively surpass all other swordsmen alongside Zoro in strength just because he is so called “rival equal in strength” according to you.


again, take it up with oda.


convict said:


> Having a goal isn’t the be-all-end-all but Zoro will surely surpass that goal. And if Sanji can surpass all other swordsmen too in addition to finding his own goals and without training to do so that is a pure insult to Zoro’s goal.


see above. not my fault Oda wrote his story the way he did.


convict said:


> Sanji will end up strong too in order to protect everyone he will be top tier and close to admirals in strength but he won’t be as strong as Zoro. *Impossible*.


yeah, well when that happens, be sure to take it up with GODA.


convict said:


> We are continuing with the streak of having nothing worthwhile to actually combat the example. Concession accepted then.


coz you keep provding retarded examples. cant combat retarded examples since they are you know... retarded.


convict said:


> Which was debunked thoroughly. You said nothing to counter any of my points and in fact evade them, all the while scribbling this rubbish in the end.


yeah, dont see any debunking being done. not sure why you so mad.


convict said:


> Again. Concession accepted. I notice a theme.


yeah, saying that makes you feel better.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 23, 2021)

Yeah, so it's been real but I think I am done with @convict

Cant reason with folks who don't know how to reason. Also typing text walls on mobile is a bit too much for me tbh.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 23, 2021)

Igor said:


> If Sanji can block Daifuku's bisent, whether with his giant genius he was extremely powerful, do you really think Sanji falls behind Smoker and Law when it comes to haki?


Daifuku is the equivalent of mid tier F6. Being able to block his attacks without pushing him back isn't the feat you think it is

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Daifuku is the equivalent of mid tier F6. Being able to block his attacks without pushing him back isn't the feat you think it is



What about X Drake?
In what world Sanji can hold his own and stale XDrake without his suit, dressed with a kimono, but would be overwhelmed by Law's COA, unable to bypass his durability?
ck

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 23, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Daifuku is the equivalent of mid tier F6. Being able to block his attacks without pushing him back isn't the feat you think it is


I reckon the point being made is that this was done by sanji in base form. Not taking into account his other abilities talkless of the raid suit.


And pushing him back?

Ulti sent Luffy flying in a clash of heads. Regardless of where you place daifuku, it is an impressive feat all things considered. Especially as a smaller genie totalled multiple attack ships in one blow.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 23, 2021)

Daifucks genie is weaker than Judge:


*Spoiler*: __ 









Just to clear out the confusion. Continue to bark at each other


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Daifucks genie is weaker than Judge:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



It's possible.
Maybe, maybe not.
It would not have been proven by those panels as you can clearly see Sanji being disturbed by old memories.....
You know haki, focus and stuff.
What about XDrake though?ck

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jan 23, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Daifucks genie is weaker than Judge:


Yes. I think we learned this when Judge took on Snack +  another with no issue.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 23, 2021)

sanji being stronger than any of the ah3 just doesn't make sense story wise like at all. zoro doesn't need an explanation. On the actual topic of the thread i think arguing killer should get the benefit of the doubt because he's on the roof is fine, but sanji very well could edge him out. eos sanji should be stronger no reason he can't be now.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Neutral 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

You can clearly see that arguments are starting to make less and less sense., when you see overall how disingenuous it becomes. So let me get this straight:

1) Zoro and Killer can somehow manage to follow an invisible Sanji and react to his moves.
I agree to some extent, even though he would clearly lands more hits than any of them in the hypothetic fights. Those guys are overall on the same level, let's be real.
That's despite the fact that Sanji is better at Coo than any of them....

2) Law has better durability and Coa than Sanji to the point that it would make a significant difference.
Despite the fact that base Sanji had no problem fucking with Zoan form Drake.



That's the type of arguments i expect from @muchentuchen no cap. How the fuck anyone can defend those two stances simultaneously ?

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> It's possible.
> Maybe, maybe not.
> It would not have been proven by those panels as you can clearly see Sanji being disturbed by old memories.....
> You know haki, focus and stuff.
> What about XDrake though?ck



Poor Sanji always nerfed


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Poor Sanji always nerfed



So true.
You still did not answer tough.


Oh an regarding your remark, i have only two words:
*Stomach aches*.
"Food poisoning" works too.....
I could also have indicated to you some topics where fellow readers are adamant that Zoro is currently nerfed against two Yonkous


The pot and the kettle,etc,etc.
Thank you, you guys are the best.
It was entertaining.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> So true.
> You still did not answer tough.
> 
> 
> ...



Which question?


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Which question?



Sorry, my bad, i did not ask it directly to you.

How come *base* Sanji was able to fight full Zoan form XDrake and did not sustain any injury if his durability and his COA are significantly weaker than Law's?
Law durability and COA far exceed XDrake's ones too?


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## TheWiggian (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Sorry, my bad, i did not ask it directly to you.
> 
> How come Sanji was able to fight XDrake and did not sustain any injury if his durability and his COA are significantly weaker than Law's?



He did fight X. Drake? I only know about a clash where he was looking inferior, so nothing new here

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> He did fight X. Drake? I only know about a clash where he was looking inferior, so nothing new here



Thank you.
Nothing more to see here.


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## Igor (Jan 23, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Daifucks genie is weaker than Judge:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Perhaps Judge may be stronger, but it is because of technological powers, not physical strength.

You can see that against Daifuku, Sanji is countering at the same intensity. Already against Judge, Sanji is standing just raising his leg to block the attack


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## TheWiggian (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Thank you.
> Nothing more to see here.



Exactly Judge breached through Sanji's armament while the genie failed to do so. And Sanji was on the receiving end against X. Drake too 

That's exactly why Niji handed him the suit. He is too weak, too slow and lacks durability.


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Exactly Judge breached through Sanji's armament while the genie failed to do so. And Sanji was on the receiving end against X. Drake too
> 
> That's exactly why Niji handed him the suit. He is too weak, too slow and lacks durability.



Such a pity your last reply was perfect.

Daifuku: A paramecia.
XDrake: A zoan
Niji: Raid Suit
Judge: Raid Suit.
Performance enhancement everywhere, in just 5 sentences, who all fought base Sanji.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Such a pity your last reply was perfect.
> 
> Daifuku: A paramecia.
> XDrake: A zoan
> ...



And he looked bad against everyone of them, Niji even two shotted him in base 

That's why Oda gave him the suit


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## Igor (Jan 23, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Exactly Judge breached through Sanji's armament while the genie failed to do so. And Sanji was on the receiving end against X. Drake too
> 
> That's exactly why Niji handed him the suit. He is too weak, too slow and lacks durability.



Why do you continue to ignore the circumstances?
Or don't you know the difference between a counterattack and a block?


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> And he looked bad against everyone of them
> 
> That's why Oda gave him the suit




Praise the prince he lasted 900 chapters in base, when others had to rely on some serious weaponry since day 1
ck


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## TheWiggian (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Praise the prince he lasted 900 chapters in base, when others had to rely on weaponry since day 1
> ck



Good to know he caps under top tiers in base. I mean it was just a matter of time.



Igor said:


> Why do you continue to ignore the circumstances?
> Or don't you know the difference between a counterattack and a block?



I merely state facts of his feats.


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Good to know he caps under top tiers in base. I mean it was just a matter of time.



Currently sure.
All his physical stats ,equipments, and  haki are bound to gradually increase tough.
So what's your point?
Enlighten us Whose base stats are currently on par with top tiers?
Luffy?
Killer?
Zoro?


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## TheWiggian (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Currently sure.
> All his physical stats ,equipments, and  haki are bound to gradually increase tough.
> So what's your point?
> Enlighten us Whose base stats are currently par with top tiers?
> ...



If they would increase gradually he wouldn't need a new tool in his arsenal. Luffy just trains and becomes strong in terms of stats and haki, so does Zoro and Killer.

Sanji pulls over his cape that he hates to make up for the lack of willpower and physical attributes.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> If they would increase gradually he wouldn't need a new tool in his arsenal. Luffy just trains and becomes strong in terms of stats and haki, so does Zoro and Killer.
> 
> Sanji pulls over his cape that he hates to make up for the lack of willpower and physical attributes.


I'm confused.
Acting like:
1) There aren't new levels, untapped potential for devil fruits , with ultimately awakening.
Sabo caped too?
2) We're supposed to act like Zoro did not replace along the way his swords with better  new toys? Shisui anyone ? Enma?


Do you really believe that Sanji's stats aren't increasing until the end of story just like Kidd or Luffy did in jail? His overall strength is related to his base, you do realize that?
His haki won't evolve through battle?

Like, is this even up for debate?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Captain Altintop (Jan 23, 2021)

As much as I love Sanji as character supported by the fact he's in the same generall ballpark as Luffy and Zoro by merely using only his legs without any weapons (RS being recent exception) and DF, but he will never reach any of the Top Supernova Captains competing for the upcoming Yonko roles.

Sanji by EoS will be around "average" Yonko/Admiral level. EoS Killer slightly below around "lower average" Y/A level. Old healthy WB was probably "above average" Y/A-level. (See my signature)
Prime Garp, Primebeard and Roger were definitely on high Y/A level where the PK competitors stay.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> I'm confused.
> Acting like:
> 1) There aren't new levels, untapped potential for devil fruits , with ultimately awakening.
> Sabo caped too?
> 2) We're supposed to act like Zoro did not replace along the way his swords with better  new toys? Shisui anyone ?





He doesn't do anything to become stronger so what do you expect that he will forever magically keep up with Luffy and Zoro?

I suspect it's his TS training, you shouldn't forget that he is a cook in the first place and focussed on cooking, you saw the progress in WCI how he climbed the ladder from a simple SN cook to Yonkou level cook when he made the cake.

He receives island growth but apart from that nothing indicates he massively improved, that's why he got the RS, the question is how long will it last? 

Anyway it's good that he got it else Jinbei certainly would've replaced him.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

Captain Altintop said:


> but he will never reach any of the Top Supernova Captains competing for the upcoming Yonko roles.
> 
> Sanji by EoS will be around "average" Yonko/Admiral level. EoS Killer slightly below around "lower average" Y/A level. Old healthy WB was probably "above average" Y/A-level. (See my signature)



You think Law and Kidd are reaching a level where characters like Kizaru are not able to compete against them?


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## Captain Altintop (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> You think Law and Kidd are reaching a level where characters like Kizaru are not able to compete against them?


No you got me wrong, I said in other threads few times that each fight from 97+ up to 100 in my signature are going to be *at least* *high* (mid) difficult fights. Kizaru gives Roger high (mid to high) difficulty such as Kidd and he gives EoS Law probably even high (high) difficulty.


Kizaru could get a little bit stronger with same potential as Sakazuki - obviously - but he is too high  and doesn't give a f*** anymore, btw my most fav. char Top 3 definitely

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Despite the fact that base Sanji had no problem fucking with Zoan form Drake.


Sanji didn't even tickle Drake lol

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Sanji didn't even tickle Drake lol


And Drake damaged Sanji?



Unconscious bias, wrong assumption.
Their Coa are not drastically apart imo.
Drake> Law~Sanji
If Drake's armement far exceeded sanji's, should he not have been seriously injured facing him in base while the tobi rappo was using his Zoan form?


Unless law's Coa also shit on Drake's own armement ?
Or you're gonna claim that haki was not used?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> And Drake damaged Sanji?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wait so what’s your position here? It can’t be that sanji is equal to law or Zoro right?


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> If Drake's armement far exceeded sanji's, should he not have been seriously injured facing him in base while the tobi rappo was using his Zoan form?


In 1 attack? No one's claiming Drake is Kaido level lol

But he was bruised

Pre getting hit:



After getting hit:





Mylesime said:


> Or you're gonna claim that haki was not used?


Well you're free to show us where it was. I sure don't see it

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 23, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Wait so what’s your position here? It can’t be that sanji is equal to law or Zoro right?



No Sanji is stronger than Law and Zoro and they're not guaranteed to win against him in the RS.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Wait so what’s your position here? It can’t be that sanji is equal to law or Zoro right?


Luffy>>Law>Zoro>Sanji>Killer
The gaps are pretty close, such that Law is favored in the match up high (low) Diff.

It's mainly due to Law's mastery of his devil fruit though.
Doesn't make it more or less worthy of praise. Hence why i don't see where Law 's Coa has been showcased as significantly superior when Sanji actually got the better feat on that end.


Strobacaxi said:


> In 1 attack? No one's claiming Drake is Kaido level lol
> 
> But he was bruised
> 
> ...



1) Pretending that one needs to be Kaido to badly injure Sanji while using his zoan form on  base Sanji.
Disingenuous much.
Based on feats Sanji would have been decimated with Kings attack without his suit.
You're highlighting bruises here....

2) Let's stay consistant.
a) Their durability does not vary. We were talking about their physical prowess. Law supposedly significantly more durable base on their feat with Doffy. With @convict's example clearly showcasing armement, which led us to talk about their hakis....
So law's durability outclasses Sanji and Drake own durability?
b) it was never specified that Sanji used Coa against Vergo neither.
Yet we all assume that both did.
Are we supposed to only take low end feats from Sanji and always assume the worst outcome?


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> 1) Pretending that one needs to be Kaido to badly injure Sanji while using his zoan form on base Sanji.


You said it yourself, Vet level characters are comparable to base Sanji. Why would a Vet/YC3 level character like Drake be able to seriously damage base Sanji with 1 hit?



Mylesime said:


> a) Their durability does not vary. We were talking about their physical prowess. Law supposedly significantly more durable base on their feat with Doffy.
> So law's durability outclasses Sanji and Drake own durability?


I don't even know what you're talking about, I'm not discussing Law at all



Mylesime said:


> b) it was never specified that Sanji used Coa against Vergo neither.
> Yet we all assume that both did.


Who is this all? I've never seen anyone say Sanji used CoA against Vergo lol


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## Mylesime (Jan 23, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> You said it yourself, Vet level characters are comparable to base Sanji. Why would a Vet/YC3 level character like Drake be able to seriously damage base Sanji with 1 hit?


I assume that high level fighters usually use haki when they fight.
Silly me.
There is a general discussion where we're talking about various characters defense, durability and haki. Sanji obviously being one of them.
Sanji was able to fight Drake in full Zoan form. Undisputable.
How is that possible if Sanji can't match Law in terms of durability and haki.
That was the whole point, which was pretty clear.
We can assume that base Sanji durability is good enough to fight XDrake in his full Zoan form, in which case what would it mean for Sanji and Drake durability relatively to Law?



Strobacaxi said:


> I don't even know what you're talking about, I'm not discussing Law at all


You don't see why i brought up Law's name in my answer?
Have you read the last two pages?

**



Strobacaxi said:


> Who is this all? I've never seen anyone say Sanji used CoA against Vergo lol



I guess haki is rarely used in Sanji's fights.
And @TheWiggian thinks i'm the one who thinks that Sanji is nerfed....
We can also assume that Sanji did not use haki against Vergo.
Not detrimental considering my stance.
I think they both did though.


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## A Optimistic (Jan 23, 2021)

Killer vs Sanji without a raid suit is a low difficult victory for Killer.

Killer vs Sanji with a raid suit is a high difficulty victory for Killer.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> I assume that high level fighters usually use haki when they fight.
> Silly me.


Silly you indeed. There's no invisible haki anymore, except barrier haki, which although invisible, is noticeable when used. If you don't see a barrier, black coating or the black lightning around an attack, that attack did not have haki.



Mylesime said:


> Sanji was able to fight Drake in full Zoan form. Undisputable.


Was he? His one attack didn't even tickle Drake, Drake's one casual swing of his tail bruised Sanji. It was very very clear that without RS Sanji wasn't going to beat Drake.
I can't tell for sure, but Sanji's leg looks blackened in here




Mylesime said:


> You don't see why i brought up Law's name in my answer?
> Have you read the last two pages?


No, I only replied to a small part of your coment, where you said that blocking Daifuku's attacks meant his CoA was on Law/Smoker level. I'm not particularly interested in this discussion in general just didn't agree with that point.



Mylesime said:


> I guess haki is rarely used in Sanji's fights.


Well you can have it one of two ways:

Sanji didn't use haki against Vergo
Sanji used haki against Vergo and his haki was so  weak. that a non haki kick from Vergo broke his bone

So which one is it?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 23, 2021)

Mylesime said:
			
		

> There is nothing big about it ck
> It's more debatable with Zoro thanks to his incredible endurance.
> I'd still give the edge to RS Sanji who has better durability.
> Zoro absolutely needs Enma, and he needs to totally unlock it though, if Apoo was able to stand up despite a clear opening and a clean hit from Zoro, he would struggle putting down Sanji, and Killer managed to put him down with one successful hit on the other hand.
> ...



First posting this then disagreeing lol

A troll and liar ^^


Mylesime said:


> I assume that high level fighters usually use haki when they fight.
> Silly me.
> There is a general discussion where we're talking about various characters defense, durability and haki. Sanji obviously being one of them.
> Sanji was able to fight Drake in full Zoan form. Undisputable.
> ...



Iam just a spectator dude

It's funny to see those mental gymnastics to make Sanji as relevant as the SN's. It could've been so easy for Oda to add 23 more million to his bounty and he would be one aswell but Oda didn't ...

Reactions: Funny 3 | Disagree 1


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## A Optimistic (Jan 23, 2021)

Sanji without his raid suit can't even defeat Page One. Sanji without his raid suit couldn't do anything to Drake. Sanji admitted that without his raidsuit that he was going to die from a single no-named attacked from King. Sanji without his raid suit can't even defeat Daifuku.

But somehow Sanji is magically going to defeat someone who can leave an impression on Kaido's neck, receive praise from Kaido, and keep up speed wise with Zoro? What manga are you people reading?

There is a reason Sanji wasn't invited to the rooftop, and that's because he's weaker than every member of the Worst Generation.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## convict (Jan 23, 2021)

@Kroczilla please enjoy. I scare myself with how much I wrote  


*Spoiler*: __ 






> the context was directly in comparison to sanji after which you produced said feat of Law using haki to block doffy's five coloured strings.




Yes. And that is a good feat for Law. Does Sanji have an equivalent one in Dressrosa? No? Ok then.




> sanji literally tanked the attack without haki. he does have the hype as being the man who will rival the WSS.



He got wounded significantly. Of course he wouldn’t be knocked out by such a basic attack. Would be quite embarrassing if he did. Jesus how weak are your standards if merely staying conscious after that attack is something you shout at the top of your lungs about.



> Law really doesnt though. also just because COA isnt sanji's speciality doesnt make it Law's either. hence it is reasonable for them to be comparable in that regard.



Law Is A) Portrayed to be a step above Sanji in overall power. Anyone with half a cell in their cranium knows that. Your own co-Sanji fan is saying as much to you. B) He has a good CoA Haki feat which Sanji does not. Sanji has nothing going for him that implies his CoA is Law level. Neither feats, nor hype.



> it seems that you are finally getting closer to understanding what was being debated though in the end your comprehension seems to have failed you. i said that sanji with the raid suit has advantages that make it difficult for them to guarantee a win against him. the level of difficulty for the fight is tbh secondary to the primary point.



Unfortunately, in your case you started off clueless and you continue clueless. I have been hammering again and again how stupid that is but you don’t get it. You close your ears and go “Lalalala”. You actually made your true opinion known very well that in your prior post that Sanji and Zoro are equal and he is at the same level as Kid as well. You said as much when you talked about how these fights will go down. Embarrassing opinion I reiterate.



> haki isnt a factor here either except you are talking about COA. From everyone's perception, once sanji went invisible, he said to have literally disappeared.



What do you mean Haki isn’t a factor? That is literally the purpose of CoO. To observe that which the naked eye cannot. To sense the presence of others. It is also not always activated. Surprising them with invisibility for moments doesn’t mean they will be clueless about his whereabouts the whole fight. As soon as King locked on to him the invisibility vanished. Of course if they literally can’t tell where any attacks are coming from and are helpless against his invisibility, they stand no chance against him. Which is obviously bullshit.



> Nope. Nope. all you have done is scream COMBAT REFLEX .... COMBAT REFLEX like a retard as if it something sanji doesnt have in equal measure. hopefully things will be different this time.



Shame looks like I am getting to you. Sorry for being persistent about something that you can’t get through your thick skull.



> ahhh.. and he misses the point again. the moment absalom turned invisible, even without his threat to nami, it automatically became harder to actually win against him because, HE WAS INVISIBLE. Now sanji isnt fodder to Killer, at all. and he has the added advantage of the suit which means Killer just isnt getting a W from this fight. kidd and zoro are another matter entirely. again, already gave my comprehensive view in that regard



How many times do we have to go over the fact that invisibility is an advantage? Something that Zoro and Kid do have the tools to get around and potentially Killer as well. Why do you moronically keep screeching this as if it isn’t blatantly obvious that invisibility will help. Pre RS Sanji would get beat the fuck up by Killer. He simply won’t be able to tank multiple of Killer’s attacks especially if a simple 5 colored strings can injure him so. The raid suit brings him to Killer’s level – potentially.



> Edurance. yes
> Durability. nope. not exactly had a lot of feats in this regard post time skip
> physically stronger. nope
> Lethal. Depends on the context
> ...



Zoro doesn’t have more durability than Sanji despite specializing in armament while Sanji has better CoO? So you are too boneheaded to even give Zoro that much huh? He doesn’t have more willpower despite thriller bark? Sanji with his eyes out of their sockets at Zoro still  standing after all that? It is also apparently debatable that Zoro has more lethal attacks? You are absolutely a riot with your drivel.

Also, as I said Sanji is overall smarter but Zoro is at least as smart purely in a fight.



> again, sanji also has combat reflexes. and once again RS SANJI LITERAL APPEARS TO HAVE DISAPPEARED WHEN HE GOES INVISIBLE. ing even asked him to try disappearing again coz he legit thought that was what happened. P1 also thought sanji had disappeared even when sanji was right there.
> 
> there is also the fact that none of them are particularly good at COO.



Yes Sanji has invisibility. We all know that. Anything new you want to bring up beyond that? I already talked about how they get around it.



> Comprehension, boy. Seriously. i said even IF killer had the feat to breach RS SANJI' s Defense, he doesnt have the sheer grit and tenacity to suggest he can keep up the fight after several hits.



Exactly you are open to the possibility of Killer being able to breach Sanji’s defense and what if it turned out he has Zoro’s tenacity a well? Impossible may not seem as such. Remember Killer was tortured prior to fighting Zoro. Once again laughable opinion that Zoro would be on the run against Friggin Sanji and only through his sheer grit and endurance might he have a chance against the legendary Judge’s son.



> what feats does rengoku onigiri from pre enma zoro have exactly?



It is one of Zoro’s mid range attacks. A completely serious attack that back in the day was equivalent to Luffy’s Bazooka level attacks. If we powerscale that he got stronger after Dressrosa you think Law with his bloody arms can block that without much damage? Repeatedly you go above and beyond in your insanity.



> how exactly was sanji slowed down? he kept at it and even put doffy on the defensive. the fact that he was bleeding from superficial wounds really doesnt help your case considering all the strawhates have been through. he had a fucking knife put through his torso and not only pulled it out, wrecked his assailant but also went on to fight oz with the rest of the SH like nothing happened



It was directly on panel that he slowed down. Read the fight again amateur. Sanji was in front attacking him. Doffy stringed his ass and moved past him to attack the others. Sanji was then a good distance behind him and had to catch up. Ergo, the attack slowed him down.

Large scale cutting damage thoughout his body is significant even if not as significant as getting your internal organ damage. Sanji isn’t Kaido.



> how was he close to being oneshot? and how is law using COA being compared to sanji who wasnt using COA?



Sanji has Zero CoA feats at the level of Law despite having far more panel time. That should tell you something. No it won’t. Because you are too far gone obviously. You will ignore this fact as usual.



> Mobility and speed are greatly increased thanks to the rocket boots. COO is always there, but its clear that when your enemy literally cant see you, having the better COO decrease the already bleak likelihood of them tagging you.



When did I say he didn’t get a boost? Invisibility and Durability boosts were the most significant however. Sanji was already mobile and could fly. He desperately needed a durability increase and the invisibility is a completely new power for him.



> it never really wasnt.



Yeah I agree that Sanji’s durability never really wasn’t lacking aka double negative -> It was lacking.




> Reaction time is equally as relevant in the context of anticipating counter attacks which sanji will certainly anticipate given who his opponents are.



Yes it will help with counter attacks. But once again, one hit is all Zoro needs to to breach the RS and deal major damage. It will help him fend off some attacks but one landing from someone as quick and lethal as Zoro is inevitable.



> you are focusing on zoro's coz you believe he wins. i am focusing on sanji's because i believe that isnt the case.



I am focusing on Zoro’s reaction time because you keep harping to me about how Zoro will be able to deal with the invisibility. This. Is. How. He. Will. Do. So. Imbecile. You keep asking me about how Zoro will deal with it and I keep telling you that combat reflexes are an essential part of it and then you keep getting offended at me using that term. Sanji has reaction time too I know. But that isn’t as relevant when discussing how Zoro will deal with invisibility. He doesn’t necessarily need greater reflexes than Sanji to deal with his invisibility as attacking isn’t a reflex driven game as much as defending is (as is counterattacking sure).



> Reaction time is equally integral to avoiding counter attacks which sanji certainly knows will come. since sanji know's zoro's attacking strength, his reaction time will be equally invaluable.



Yes it would be invaluable. Zoro’s reaction time would be essential to dealing with invisibility and Sanji’s would be to get away from counter attacks. Ultimately Sanji might even land more hits but Zoro just needs one good one to overcome the raid suit and finish the fight.



> why exactly will he be tagged eventually? why is it a certainty exactly? coz i already accepted that it COULD happen hence the lack of guarantees, but you believe it to be a certainty. so please, educate us.



Because Zoro is a highly skilled swordsman who knows what the fuck he is doing and can tag faster foes? His attacks - from tornadoes, to quick strikes, to large damage dealers, to long range attacks, to counters all coalesce into someone who is very hard to fight against without a weapon. It is inevitable that he tags Sanji. You think Sanji may beat Zoro without getting hit once?

Add that to the list of your autistic opinions. The list is getting very large here.



> he doesnt need to now does he. heck my arguments are and were always premised on zoro, kid and law being able to get past raid suit's durability. you would know this if you actually read.



Your stupid argument can take a backseat to the point I am making which is that Zoro needs one good clean strike to end it. He has the versatility in his moveset to make that happen. He has the endurance to take on Sanji’s comparatively ineffectual strikes and wait for the opening. Sanji might get more hits in but Zoro will eat them and triumph. And it would definitely not be an extreme difficulty fight.



> *imagine asking me to prove that sanji's legs are part of his body.* if it was said that sanji's body except for his legs were damaged, you might have a point. But it wasnt now was it?
> 
> it was said that his body was damaged. hence since you appear to be GODA himself, kindly explain to us why his body wouldnt include his legs.



You can’t be this moronic can you? Who in God’s name is asking that? The burden of proof lies in the one making the claim that Sanji’s leg was already on its way to being broken. Damage does not mean breakage. That is separate. Oda never implied that Sanji’s leg was at breaking point before Vergo’s fight. He highlighted the fracture as soon as Vergo hit. Sanji was dancing around with that leg just fine. Not even a limp before. Trying so hard to find excuses for his poor durability.



> there is only one fact. Sanji's body was damaged and thus, wasnt in peak condition. at all.



Being in peak condition or not has nothing to do with broken bones. I am not in peak condition after muay thai practice with my trainer who keeps hitting me. Doesn’t mean my bones are any more likely to break.



> if that was your point (i.e. the meteor wasnt protected by haki) then its a fiercely stupid one. by that logic, zoro cutting pica's body sint impressive coz it had no haki protection. and please, i am legit dying to see you legit argue that pre-time skip zoro could cut up meteors
> 
> law defending against doffy's attack simply means his haki is strong. it doesnt mean that any hilly billy with a sword can cut a meeor coz its JuST rOCkS.



It is a fiercely relevant one. Zoro cutting Pica’s body was impressive because of the range and that he oneshotted Hakified Pica himself. The rock itself wasn’t hard to cut. Yes. There is no argument to be had. Zoro could likely have cut PART of that meter pre-skip as even as far back as Arabasta he could cut steel. The impressive thing about cutting the meteor was the reaction time and the range which pre-skip Zoro wouldn’t have had. Stop being daft.



> this is the best you can bring up? at that moment sanji was in nami's much weaker body hence obviously he will be taken out briefly. Cutting away a threat is common sense. its not some massive feat of situational awareness you seem to make it out to be. i mean if i was falling on sharp rocks, its only common sense to try and change my landing point



Yes. On the spot thinking within seconds of passing out. Sanji was in Nami’s body but his mind was present. Just because he is weaker doesn’t mean that it isn’t still Sanji in there. Zoro straight up was quicker on his feet and saved everyone due to his awareness.



> yeah, the point is whether or not katakuri was serious (though he was serious about killing sanji and the jelly bean was his onlly ranged option). the point is that sanji wasnt even aware of him in the first place. thats is actaul situational awareness by the way. Not just detecting the obvious, but being aware of the obscured. heck, sanji showed that he could detect and take down a sniper when he was literally in the scope.



There is this thing called CoO which allows you to do stuff like that. It also helps you fight against invisible enemies. There is a difference between quick thinking and CoO. Sanji’s specialty is CoO which is why he can detect things better than Zoro and Zoro has better CoA which is why he has better defensive and offensive Haki than Sanji.



> how so? sanji can fly. zoro isnt very good at COO and wouldnt even know what to swing at. sanji could literally be 100 of meters over his head like with P1, and he wouldnt know it.



Sanji has to come in close to attack and then jump back to get out of range. That is where Haki, awareness, quick thinking, and reflexes come in.



> yes, it doesnt look like that.



I’m just describing what is on panel word for word.



> sure, sure...



Yes. Those words can be interchangeable and strength can mean 2 different things. Whitebeard was known as the worlds strongest man because he was most powerful Not because he could bench the most. Mihawk is the strongest swordsman because he is most powerful with a sword. He isn’t a swordsman who can lift the most.

It is like having to explain to a baby.



> you keep bringing up external acknowledgments and i keep pointing to what matters more in the context of the story i.e. the crew's internal dynamics.



Stop brushing off external acknowledgements as if they are nothing. Why are they nothing? Of course they should be looked at. Oda puts them in for a reason. And as I said, The crew has never said Luffy is stronger than Sanji let alone Zoro so you are asking for something Oda will never give. But as with Luffy, that doesn’t mean that Zoro is equal to Judge’s son.



> when has luffy ever referred to zoro as 'the protector' when sanji was there?



He has referred to groups with as "Zoro and them" multiple times. He clearly sees Zoro as the one leading them. Even in Arabasta.



> Sanji was absent for nearly all of dressrosa. as for the bounty as i pointed out, sanji being relatively unknown was a crucial part of why WCI was possible in the first place. hence why even when he got a bounty, it was the wrong face.



No. The reason why Zoro got a higher bounty than Sanji to start with is because he defeated a famous Assassin with a high bounty. Sanji simply wasn’t able to beat someone as strong. Sanji was still at least present for half of Dressrosa. Zoro was MIA for the whole arc and only then did Sanji catch up. And guess what Zoro is doing in Wano? Who he is tangoing against? Am eagerly awaiting their next bounties.



> yet sanji consistently has an easier time taking down his opponent



Luffy finishes last has the strongest foe and hardest time, Zoro finishes second last and second strongest foe and second hardest time, Sanji before them fights the third strongest foe and has the third hardest time. It is clear what hierarchy Oda likes.



> yet Sanji has never been left behind despite barely being shown training. Clearly Oda is invested in the dynamic as well.



Sanji hasn’t been left in the dust because his precious pappy created a wonderful all-inclusive suit for him. Zoro at least had to work for his powerup as did Luffy. And clearly Sanji trains, he just doesn’t train as much. And isn’t as strong. Obviously.



> yeah, can i get a scan for this.







> the fact that Luffy is the strongest is something that is acknowledge, particularly by zoro. he is also consistently the guy whom they all put their faith in to beat the strongest villian of each arc, indicating that he is clearly the one they regard as the strongest.



Nope. No one ever specifically said that. Cop out answer. I can say everyone trusts Zoro to beat the second strongest of the arc clearly indicating he is second strongest.



> they became recognized as the SH crew with zoro being the only one other than Luffy to have a bounty hence them being the only ones that were world famous. it wasnt until Ennies Lobby that sanji got a bounty and even then, it was the wrong face which would obviously make it difficullt for his familiy to know for sure that it was him.



Whether his family knew it was him or not, the world government didn’t think his contributions were as significant as Zoro’s



> the panels highlight zoro and sanji as luffy's most trusted subordinates



You mean like when Zoro is lecturing or admonishing Luffy? Like when Zoro is the one with his captain’s back in his first full fight against the Yonkou? Like How Zoro was the one with Luffy equally contributing to fighting a natural cataclysm when they were all together? When Zoro protected the whole crew against Kuma’s seeming malice? Come of it. Zoro is the first mate and the first guy Luffy will go to to protect the crew.



> yeah obviously they arent going to be bickering when things are serious.



Exactly. The rivalry is for gags. It isn’t serious.



> see above. also the fact that sanji has an easier time taking down his opponents than zoro clearly depicts equality. further, in their fight as zombies of moria, they were dead even.



That is like me saying the fact that Zoro has an easier time than Luffy depicts equality.



> it is there though.



You yourself just conceded that they don’t bicker during serious events. Yet here you are saying the serious rivalry is there. You are contradicting yourself.



> see above. combat reflexes are relevant whether you are attacking or defending. moreso when you know what your opponent is capable of.



They are relevant to both but particularly so if you are defending against attacks you aren’t 100% sure from where they will land.



> and sanji's fights involve him using his skills and smarts to pull a win or gain an advantage.



Uh yes? When did I say other wise? Is irrelevant to what we were just talking about though.



> yeah, just when you were getting so close to understanding the simple concept of advantages and how they relate to fights.



Listen man I am just regurgitating what you told me. Do you deny any of the above statements (which you specifically mentioned in your recent posts)?



> yes he is, and his focus is almost entirely on channeling COA into his swords. he isnt a full body specialist like vergo.



If he can coat his swords, he can coat parts of his body in Haki. When he faced Pica he talked about how Pica’s haki wasn’t strong enough. Basic armament/hardening can be used both offensively and defensively. It is the same type of Haki.



> its directly shown that sanji has the strongest body able to withstand high water pressure like a fishman. again, zoro's focus has been almost entirely on his use of hardened blades



Sanji surving that water pressure is a meaningless feat as all these guys are superhuman and it is expected of these superpowered freaks to do that. Just because Sanji has weak durability compared to Zoro and Vergo doesn’t mean he isn’t a superhuman compared to regular folks. That is like me claiming Zoro is faster than Sanji because people were shocked that he blitzed a fishman underwater. Zoro and Sanji are obviously far more capable than regular people in speed and durability even if one is superior to the other in certain aspects.



> except you cant use haki to anticipate RS coz from the perspective of other haki users, he literally disappears. and reflexes arent exclusive to them either.



Sanji hasn’t used this ability in an extended fight. At the very beginning when combatants have no idea of his power they are more susceptible to its effects. It remains to be seen whether he can sustain that against Zoro/Kid level fighters and beyond.



> yeah, i can see why i am wasting my time



Yes. If you keep spouting nonsense that Sanji is equal to Zoro or can beat Kid/Law you are wasting everyone’s time.



> well you clearly arent doing that. as i have explained countless time, haki so far cant sense RS sanji (again it is like he literal disappears). and thats only the half of it. you keep relying on something that has not been shown to work against RS Sanji



Have you seriously forgotten how color of observation works? It isn’t on all the time. Haki has to be activated. Just recall how usopp saw Sugars “form” or “presence” through solid objects. King simply wasn’t using it. The invisibility is visual. Haki is something beyond that if using it properly.



> yet you keep bringing retarded examples like Akainu suffering from... cant be bothered to type it out coz it absolutely retarded in the first place. also "dingus"? again, how old are you?



The fact that I used this term actually speaks to more advanced age than otherwise. It fits though. And I find it funny that you keep writing long-winded and stupid posts but never were able to counter any of my “retarted” examples. Either you can’t and are projecting. Or you still don’t have a sense of why I used his example. Hint: It had nothing to do with power levels.



> dont recall Lucci and Jyabura bickering. as for kid and Apoo, kid has zero feats to put him even approach Luffy's level. law was also depiceted as a fellow rival of luffy and we all know how that turned out.



Allow me to reeducate you. This is the first exchange when Lucci/Kaku and Jyabura see each other:



These two are the bickering rivals. But not in power. Just like Zoro and Sanji I guess. Kaku is ignored and alleviating the situation.



> yep, no reading comprehension. WCI did have sanji overcoming and (in a literal sense) rising above his childhood trauma. but it also had sanji and his captain being saved by the germa. it also had him being finally acknowledged as a true germa hence the gift of the stealth black, his literal birthright. the current arc has him show that he is more than willing to use the suit and he has consistently brought up the fact that the tech is quite impressive showing that even germa tech can do good if used with the right intent. it also had him praising Momo for standing up for his name, something sanji will clearly also deal with given that everyone on the planet knows it now.
> 
> is it possible that i could be wrong? yes. is it possible that i could be right? also yes.
> 
> i dont have fantasies. i read information from the manga and i make speculations i find reasonable based on the information at present. this is what most fans of any piece of fiction do., including nearly everyone here. i dont know why it makes you so mad though clearly it does.




None of this basic ass explanation is against what I said or points to him being Germa’s next King. As I said, he is over them. He doesn’t give a shit about them. Their hold over him is finished. That is why he can now use the suit as he doesn’t care that it is from Germa. Not that he likes them again all of a sudden.

Yes I would definitely prefer you keep your wet Germa fantasies to yourself thanks.



> again, based on my interpretation of the information we have, it is far more likely that the crew will be disbanded after the last war. the fact that reiju is there gives him a reason to go back. the fact that he can see the utility of germa tech gives him a reason to go back. and sanji would be doing his own thing, using tech and his culinary skills to help people.



Sanji is not a tech guy. He would much rather go back and be a chef than be a King. After finding all blue he will be the world’s best chef. That is a much more realistic post-Straw Hat destination for Sanji. Additionally, I believe the strawhats will continue their adventures into the epilogue. But that is speculation so I wont use it in my argument unliked some genius I know.



> they acknowledge this fact by putting all their faith in him to take down the biggest threats in every arc.



Yeah and they put their faith in Zoro to take down the second strongest. Hence Zoro is the second strongest.



> such as. and please dont say thriller bark coz literally everyone contributed equally.



Well among others…Thriller Bark obviously and you know that is true. “Contributed equally my ass”. Arabasta as well. It was to Zoro that Luffy looked at to lead the way and protect vivi when he stayed back to fight crocodile.



And then the next panel Zoro is giving orders to keep driving on despite protests:



And following that he lectures Vivi and the rest about priorities and goals and the reason Luffy is left behind.



> yet sanji is the one with the talent and skill to take that motivation and turn it into real strength.



No of course they all do and are progressively getting stronger. Sanji more than most of the others. And Zoro more than Sanji.



> see above. not my fault Oda wrote his story the way he did.



So you have no retort to me saying EoS Sanji being equal to Zoro takes away from Zoro’s goal as world’s strongest as to be at that level was never Sanji’s goal? I thought so. And just hilarious how you are telling me to take it up with Oda as if Oda has set in stone in the future that Sanji will be equal to Zoro.



> yeah, dont see any debunking being done. not sure why you so mad.



Projecting then are we?

Reactions: Winner 4


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## stealthblack (Jan 23, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> Sanji without his raid suit can't even defeat Page One. Sanji without his raid suit couldn't do anything to Drake. Sanji admitted that without his raidsuit that he was going to die from a single no-named attacked from King. Sanji without his raid suit can't even defeat Daifuku.
> 
> But somehow Sanji is magically going to defeat someone who can leave an impression on Kaido's neck, receive praise from Kaido, and keep up speed wise with Zoro? What manga are you people reading?
> 
> There is a reason Sanji wasn't invited to the rooftop, and that's because he's weaker than every member of the Worst Generation.


kamazo was orochi's betch. nuff said


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## Mr. Good vibes (Jan 23, 2021)

I'm still waiting on what puts Sanji over Jinbei outside of muh m3 let alone Killer or Zoro.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 23, 2021)

Looks like the general consensus believes Killer takes it after a good fight.

Hope in humanity has been restored

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

You know,since you love me so much, I thought I would just pick through the thrash and see what's worthwhile



convict said:


> What do you mean Haki isn’t a factor? That is literally the purpose of CoO. To observe that which the naked eye cannot. To sense the presence of others. It is also not always activated. Surprising them with invisibility for moments doesn’t mean they will be clueless about his whereabouts the whole fight. As soon as King locked on to him the invisibility vanished. Of course if they literally can’t tell where any attacks are coming from and are helpless against his invisibility, they stand no chance against him. Which is obviously bullshit.


So much stupidity tbh. Yes, COO can do all that. P1 for example come sense Luffy coming despite not actually being able to see. But against the Raid Suit, it was his perception that the user had disappeared.

King didn't lock on to him. King could see someone broke the chains and was carrying Momo. Now except King is an idiot who wouldn't use COO haki to try and detect his something he couldn't see it only makes sense that based on feats, the suit can't be perceived via COO. King even held on the sanji to prevent him from DISAPPEARING again. Key word, disappearing.
But for the fact that sanji was holding Momo, there's isn't any proof that king would have been able to track him. The fact that he thought sanji was disappearing proves that.

Even Hawkins and Drake couldn't sense him still be became visible, and they were actively searching for osoba mask so clearly their COO would be engaged.

More to the point, Judge knows about haki which we atleast know isn't a metaphysical concept. Hence it seems quite clear that he has found a way to conceal it.




convict said:


> Pre RS Sanji would get beat the fuck up by Killer. He simply won’t be able to tank multiple of Killer’s attacks especially if a simple 5 colored strings can injure him so.


Killer can at best hope to get an extreme diff win with pre RS sanji.  Tanking 5 coloured string with base durability alone and matching G3 luffy easily shits on all of killer's feats.




convict said:


> Zoro doesn’t have more durability than Sanji despite specializing in armament while Sanji has better CoO? So you are too boneheaded to even give Zoro that much huh? He doesn’t have more willpower despite thriller bark? Sanji with his eyes out of their sockets at Zoro still standing after all that?


Zoro specializes in COA but sanji clearly has the stronger body. Except zoro can use full body COA, then no, he doesn't have more durability.

Thriller bark was more a feat of tenacity for zoro. We already know that zoro is second only to Luffy in that regard. Will power would be them both *willing* to put it all on the line for Luffy and the crew.




convict said:


> It is also apparently debatable that Zoro has more lethal attacks?


Yes, it indeed is.

Edit: Trolling here. Thought it was pretty obvious since I already agreed that getting hit by a serious move fro zoro would be bad for RS Sanji

The rest though, I am terribly serious with, I am afraid.




convict said:


> Yes Sanji has invisibility. We all know that. Anything new you want to bring up beyond that? I already talked about how they get around it.


Again all you have said is pure nonsense. COO haki has been shown several times to be incapable of detecting RS invisibility tech.




convict said:


> Remember Killer was tortured prior to fighting Zoro.


Killer had been serving as Orochi's bitch for a while before zoro even came along.  He wasn't just tortured and sent out willy nilly.

Also the fact that his mind broke completely really doesn't inspire confidence. I bet Nami could have done better.



convict said:


> It is one of Zoro’s mid range attacks. A completely serious attack that back in the day was equivalent to Luffy’s Bazooka level attacks



So basically the equivalent of base Luffy's bazooka. An attack that doffy are to the guts after just getting hit by radio knife, and literally laughed off.

Yeah, not inspiring any real confidence my man  

Especially given that regular sanji scales to G3 Luffy. Yep, don't even need RS for this one





convict said:


> It was directly on panel that he slowed down. Read the fight again amateur. Sanji was in front attacking him. Doffy stringed his ass and moved past him to attack the others. Sanji was then a good distance behind him and had to catch up. Ergo, the attack slowed him down.


Getting sent flying by an attack =/= getting slowed down. This is literally third grade shit. Getting slowed down would mean Sanji's ability to fight was hindered after the attack which is clearly wasn't given that doffy had to restrain him with Parasite.




convict said:


> When did I say he didn’t get a boost? Invisibility and Durability boosts were the most significant however. Sanji was already mobile and could fly


Yeah, now he can do those two things much faster.




convict said:


> It was lacking.


Compared to killer, he might as well have been a durability God


Getting one shot by the equivalent of a base Luffy lvl attack... Damnit




convict said:


> one landing from someone as quick and lethal as Zoro is inevitable.


And avoiding a hit is inevitable for someone who is quicker, smarter and far better as COO i.e. Sanji.



convict said:


> but Zoro just needs one good one to overcome the raid suit and finish the fight.


There's no reason it's a he is guaranteed to get that good hit. As I pointed out, your point about Haki holds no water. Sanji has great combat reflexes of his own. Sanji is much quicker, has better smarts etc.

Zoro gets some benefit coz it is possible he could pull it off,but it is equally possible that he couldn't.




convict said:


> Because Zoro is a highly skilled swordsman who knows what the fuck he is doing and can tag faster foes?



When has zoro tagged faster foes?
Also Sanji is a highly skilled martial artist who knows what the fuck he is doing.

See, I can say that too.



convict said:


> It is a fiercely relevant one. Zoro cutting Pica’s body was impressive because of the range and that he oneshotted Hakified Pica himself. The rock itself wasn’t hard to cut. Yes. There is no argument to be had. Zoro could likely have cut PART of that meter pre-skip as even as far back as Arabasta he could cut steel. The impressive thing about cutting the meteor was the reaction time and the range which pre-skip Zoro wouldn’t have had. Stop being daft.



If you really think this, then it's either you are still a child or must have been really behind in your physics class.



convict said:


> Yes. On the spot thinking within seconds of passing out. Sanji was in Nami’s body but his mind was present. Just because he is weaker doesn’t mean that it isn’t still Sanji in there.



He is in a much weaker body, ergo he would be completely Koed by attacks that his regular body can normally withstand, ergo it doesn't matter.

Also as I pointed out, not only is that feat for zoro unimpressive in the grand scheme of things, but dodging surprise attacks from Katakuri and detecting and taking out a sniper who literally had you in his scopes easily shit on zoro's so called situational awareness feat.



convict said:


> Sanji has to come in close to attack and then jump back to get out of range. That is where Haki, awareness, quick thinking, and reflexes come in.


Haki is useless. Heck he is even better at it that they are. Sanji is also a quick thinker and also has impressive reflexes.




convict said:


> Sanji was still at least present for half of Dressrosa. Zoro was MIA for the whole arc



Sanji was present in dressrosa when they were all still in disguises. There isn't any proof the Marines (who give bounties) had any idea he was there.


convict said:


> Luffy finishes last has the strongest foe and hardest time, Zoro finishes second last and second strongest foe and second hardest time, Sanji before them fights the third strongest foe and has the third hardest time


Yeah. If Oda wanted to portray sanji as inferior to zoro, he would have sanji have just as much difficulty taking down his opponent as zoro did taking down his own.

Note that same cannot be said for Luffy and zoro as Luffy's opponents are always tiers above the others.




convict said:


> Nope. No one ever specifically said that. Cop out answer. I can say everyone trusts Zoro to beat the second strongest of the arc clearly indicating he is second strongest.



Except they never have. They trust zoro and Sanji to take care to the strong opponents. However the strongest is always made clear enough that it is always Luffy who gets their faith to take him out.



convict said:


> You yourself just conceded that they don’t bicker during serious events



Yes, they cooperate during serious events such as the Davies fight back and Vs Oz. Bickering mid fight isn't something either ever really does.



convict said:


> If he can coat his swords, he can coat parts of his body in Haki.



Yes, but knowing what part to protect would be a problem coz he literally can't sense his opponent.



convict said:


> Sanji hasn’t used this ability in an extended fight. At the very beginning when combatants have no idea of his power they are more susceptible to its effects.


He was in the bath house the entire time using the ability. And several times he is thought to have disappeared




convict said:


> Have you seriously forgotten how color of observation works? It isn’t on all the time. Haki has to be activated. Just recall how usopp saw Sugars “form” or “presence” through solid objects. King simply wasn’t using it


It isn't accurate to say COO isn't on all the time. The M3 detected Caribou while eating and drinking despite them having no reason to do so. There have been 3 occasions when sanji has faced COO users with raid suit and in all occasions, he was not found out.

Heck in the bath house, they were literally looking for him.

Edit: just to add, COO isn't like COA. it has shown multiple times that it is usually used passively to allow a user detect surprise attacks.


It's seem very likely that Judge found a way to conceal haki.





convict said:


> Well among others…Thriller Bark obviously and you know that is true. “Contributed equally my ass”. Arabasta as well. It was to Zoro that Luffy looked at to lead the way and protect vivi when he stayed back to fight crocodile.


They all contributed equally towards the defeat of Oz.

You are reading far too much into the Arabasta scene.




convict said:


> So you have no retort to me saying EoS Sanji being equal to Zoro takes away from Zoro’s goal as world’s strongest *swordsman*




Added the key word for you since you forgot. So tell me when exactly did Sanji become a swordsman


convict said:


> Projecting then are we?



Nah. Just pointing out the obvious.

Reactions: Like 7 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 1


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## stealthblack (Jan 24, 2021)

Mr. Good vibes said:


> I'm still waiting on what puts Sanji over Jinbei outside of muh m3 let alone Killer or Zoro.


Flight+ invisibility+Speed+coo+ fire kicks+ Cook knowledge on how to Cook fish
Base sanji swims as fast as a fishman


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## convict (Jan 24, 2021)

> You know,since you love me so much, I thought I would just pick through the thrash and see what's worthwhile



Ok now the following is my attempt to tease out what was worthwhile in your post:





And with that done, on to addressing the typical Zoro = Sanji, Sanji-might-beat-Kid nonsense:


*Spoiler*: __ 






> So much stupidity tbh. Yes, COO can do all that. P1 for example come sense Luffy coming despite not actually being able to see. But against the Raid Suit, it was his perception that the user had disappeared.



It was his eyes that told him the Raid Suit disappeared. Jesus. Invisibility is a visual thing. That can be alleviated by focused CoO. Still a pain, and we have established that it would help Sanji in a fight, but definitely manageable.


> King didn't lock on to him. King could see someone broke the chains and was carrying Momo. Now except King is an idiot who wouldn't use COO haki to try and detect his something he couldn't see it only makes sense that based on feats, the suit can't be perceived via COO. King even held on the sanji to prevent him from DISAPPEARING again. Key word, disappearing.



Yes as soon as he saw Momo floating away he locked on to what was causing that and surprise…Sanji was no longer invisible. King didn’t attempt to see what was causing Momo’s floatation. He went straight for a knee strike.

And speaking of King and Queen. Even Shinobu got behind those 2 retards and was freeing Momo right behind them. They clearly were not utilizing observation. Only after Shinobu was fiddling around with the chains, unable to open them did King realize what was going on. The same when Sanji broke the chains.


> But for the fact that sanji was holding Momo, there's isn't any proof that king would have been able to track him. The fact that he thought sanji was disappearing proves that.



If you don’t want to bother listening to me then maybe Sanji can explain it on my behalf:



End of story. Sanji’s invisibilityis just a visual thing. Nothing more. Observation should work. As stated by Sanji himself.


> Even Hawkins and Drake couldn't sense him still be became visible, and they were actively searching for osoba mask so clearly their COO would be engaged.


Observation doesn’t help you ID people specifically. It helps you feel presences around you. There were a ton of women in the bathouse and Drake didn’t want anything to do with that.


> More to the point, Judge knows about haki which we atleast know isn't a metaphysical concept. Hence it seems quite clear that he has found a way to conceal it.







> Killer can at best hope to get an extreme diff win with pre RS sanji. Tanking 5 coloured string with base durability alone and matching G3 luffy easily shits on all of killer's feats.



Killer mid diffs pre-RS Sanji. 1 or 2 hits is all it will take for someone who got significantly wounded by Doffy’s weakest known attack that Law could literally block with his arms and not even a weapon even though he is a swordsman. And then he broke his leg to Vergo.



> Zoro specializes in COA but *sanji clearly has the stronger body.*





Sanji has a stronger body than Zoro?



Entertaining. It is honestly entertaining



> Yes, it indeed is.



Sanji even with the RS kept clobbering Page 1 and couldn’t put him down. Zoro Cut the dragon’s head off, oneshotted Killer, onesthotted full Hakified Pica, Oneshotted Apoo (or close to it). Someone who even Kaido was impressed by? Kaido gave similar comments to Zoro as Doffy did to Sanji and this is Kaido we are talking about. Even preskip he would end his fights by slicing up enemies form high health to almost zero. That is how swordfights go.

Who is the strongest person Sanji has beaten? A wounded Wadatsumi.

Edit: You just mention that your were trolling with that. How about not do that when we are having multiple 1000 word long arguments






> Killer had been serving as Orochi's bitch for a while before zoro even came along. He wasn't just tortured and sent out willy nilly.
> 
> Also the fact that his mind broke completely really doesn't inspire confidence. I bet Nami could have done better



You blind? He was bandaged up.

Nami do a better job than Kamazo in doing what? Fighting Zoro?




> So basically the equivalent of base Luffy's bazooka. An attack that doffy are to the guts after just getting hit by radio knife, and literally laughed off.



I am talking pre-skip and even Pre-G2/G3 they were shown to be equivalent. That was when Bazooka was one of Luffy’s stronger attacks. Post skip, Luffy’s G2/G3 are his new base and Zoro learned an advanced version of Onigiri and obviously trained his techinques significantly (for example his pound attacks went up by a factor of 10).

And you seriously think Law can block Zoro’s onigiri with just his arms? Someone else who isn’t known for his durability? And who actually is a swordsman of all people can just easily block rengoku onigiri with his arms? And even then this is Wano Zoro’s attack, who is already stronger than his Dressrosa version.



> Getting sent flying by an attack =/= getting slowed down. This is literally third grade shit. Getting slowed down would mean Sanji's ability to fight was hindered after the attack which is clearly wasn't given that doffy had to restrain him with Parasite.



5 Color string isn’t a mass based attack and didn’t send him flying. It stopped Sanji in his tracks by cutting and wounding him, and Doffy moved past him after which Sanji recovered. You are being an ignoramus. Getting slowed down has multiple contexts. One is being held up. And guess what? Sanji was held up for a bit after that attack.

And no Doffy didn’t HAVE to restrain Sanji or anything of the sort. Sanji was fodder to him. Doffy chose to restrain him.



> There's no reason it's a he is guaranteed to get that good hit. As I pointed out, your point about Haki holds no water. Sanji has great combat reflexes of his own. Sanji is much quicker, has better smarts etc.



I already talked about Zoro’s versatile attacks, range, reaction time, and the fact that I just proved that the RS is purely invisibility and nothing more. With that in mind 100% Zoro would be able to tag him. Again, hilarious of you to think that Sanji can beat Zoro without even getting touched once.



> Zoro gets some benefit coz it is possible he could pull it off,but it is equally possible that he couldn't.



Frank Delusion.



> When has zoro tagged faster foes?



Kaku. A prime example of someone with far more mobility advantage and he was faster but Zoro kept up just fine with his reflexes and range.



> If you really think this, then it's either you are still a child or must have been really behind in your physics class.



Stop acting like you in any way, shape, or form are an expert on this you phony. You would have even tried to give an explanation as to what I said is incorrect. Almost all meteorite ore are already found on Earth and steel is harder than the vast majority of them. Meteorite ore can contain granite, Iron, etc. Stony meteorites are only slightly more dense than typical rocks and Iron ore in meteorites are typically harder than regular iron but not steel.

At the end of the day Law’s CoA arms are canonically far more durable than these incredible meteors of yours as Doffy’s string easily dusted up the meteor but couldn’t get past that.



> He is in a much weaker body, ergo he would be completely Koed by attacks that his regular body can normally withstand, ergo it doesn't matter.
> 
> Also as I pointed out, not only is that feat for zoro unimpressive in the grand scheme of things, but dodging surprise attacks from Katakuri and detecting and taking out a sniper who literally had you in his scopes easily shit on zoro's so called situational awareness feat.



Dodging a jelly bean with observation Haki and taking out a random fodder is not comparable to saving everyone's lives with a split second decision all the while poisoned by gas. People including Sanji whose presence of mind was still intact even if his body was weaker.



> Sanji was present in dressrosa when they were all still in disguises. There isn't any proof the Marines (who give bounties) had any idea he was there.



Stop being obtuse. He wasn’t disguised the whole time at all. Just look at the Doffy fight. There isn’t proof that they saw Zoro beat Mr. 1. either but Morgans has eyes and ears everywhere.



> Yeah. If Oda wanted to portray sanji as inferior to zoro, he would have sanji have just as much difficulty taking down his opponent as zoro did taking down his own.



Same can be said with Luffy. Crocodile was notably stronger but not multiple tiers stronger than Mr. 1 who was significantly stronger than Mr. 2. Against Enel Luffy had a matchup advantage. Against Kaku/Jyabura, Zoro oneshotted them with his powerup while Sanji 2 shoted his opponent and Lucci was stronger but not multiple tiers stronger. In Dressrosa it doesn’t really matter as Zoro trashed the shit out of Pica. In Wano they have the same opponent.



> Except they never have. They trust zoro and Sanji to take care to the strong opponents. However the strongest is always made clear enough that it is always Luffy who gets their faith to take him out.



Have you even read One Piece? They don’t trust Zoro to take out the second strongest? Good Lord amusement is morphing into pity.

Yes Sherlock you have teased it out. Luffy gets the strongest. Zoro the second strongest. Sanji the third. With rare exceptions.



> Yes, they cooperate during serious events such as the Davies fight back and Vs Oz. Bickering mid fight isn't something either ever really does.



Yes. Hence that bickering in gag moments isn’t a reflection of their strength in serious situations.



> Yes, but knowing what part to protect would be a problem coz he literally can't sense his opponent.



I’ll repeat myself: Haki.

It literally allows you to sense your opponent.



> It isn't accurate to say CoO isn't on all the time. The M3 detected Caribou while eating and drinking despite them having no reason to do so. There have been 3 occasions when sanji has faced COO users with raid suit and in all occasions, he was not found out.
> 
> Heck in the bath house, they were literally looking for him.
> 
> Edit: just to add, COO isn't like COA. it has shown multiple times that it is usually used passively to allow a user detect surprise attacks.



An individual has to use Haki for it to be effective. Whether individuals keep it on passively or are much more focused on specific targets like Usopp was or Luffy with future sight, Haki is a reflection of an individuals will. Just like CoA and CoC it manifests when you want it to.



> They all contributed equally towards the defeat of Oz.
> 
> You are reading far too much into the Arabasta scene.



I brought the receipts in my last post buddy. And you have no counter.



> Added the key word for you since you forgot. So tell me when exactly did Sanji become a swordsman



Classic comprehension. Zoro’s goal is to be stronger than all other swordsman. According to your genius logic Sanji EoS will be stronger than all of those swordsman as well as he is equal to Zoro without even having Zoro’s dream of strength to pursue such power.

Asinine opinion.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> First posting this then disagreeing lol
> 
> A troll and liar ^^
> 
> ...



You've been part of this debate since the begining, so you're either misrepresenting my stance on purpose or simply too dumb to discern when someone is fucking around (trolling) or when he's making a legitimate argument. It could be both.
I'm optimistic so i think you're playing dumb, either way it's a sign that continuing this discussion is pointless.



Mylesime said:


> Law is well equiped to fight Sanji and should be favored in an hypothetic match up based on portrayal.





Mylesime said:


> So like i said since they are on the same tier, it's interesting, we then look at their abilities comparatively.
> Kidd is for example the worst match up of the bunch for Zoro, so i would favor him, but i can see Zoro reasonably winning against the odds, even tough Kidd should win more times than not based on their skills, and their levels.
> Killer and Zoro have the same style, skillset.
> @Kroczilla does bring up some very strong argument, which highlight that victory would be difficult for him in this match up, not impossible imo, but clearly compromised.
> ...



That's my stance on this match up, and how i see Sanji faring against the SNs overall.
I'm a lot of things, certainly not a liar. Stop being disingenuous and misrepresenting my arguments.



TheWiggian said:


> And he looked bad against everyone of them, Niji even two shotted him in base
> 
> That's why Oda gave him the suit


However, i overestimated you, you've been disingenuous and dishonest without even being funny, which is a no no in a debate.
You know perfectly well the tone of the exchanges and are perfectly able to differentiate when we are talking shit.
What you did is a kin to me claiming that you think that base Niji was able to two shot Sanji.
You're not that Dumb, it's worse you're being dishonest.

Concerning Sanji's development, i don't give a darn about Sanji being a SN or not  ck
Sanji's portrayal matches , no shit on most of theirs, and his place and role in the story is incomparable with most of them, with a few exceptions for whom i'm perfectly aware that they're stronger, and i wrote it (Zoro, Kidd, Law, Drake is a wildcard). Killer is not one of them.
I'm honestly trying to understand  what you're trying to say, so unlike you , i'm not going to be full of shit.
*You're not stupid enough to seriously think that a character is more relevant than Sanji in the story simply because he's a SN not when the last fucking arc was centered around him.
You're not dumb enough to think that let's say fucking Apoo is more relevant in One Piece than Sanji.*

Don't give a darn about how folks feel about it, might be wrong, not likely, does not matter.
There is no point debating on that matter with you anymore evidently.
We'll soon be fixed whether Killer is a more important character in the plot and the battle, and whether Sanji is a stronger and more impactful character or not.
Looking forward to it.


It was fun while it lasted

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 24, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Silly you indeed. There's no invisible haki anymore, except barrier haki, which although invisible, is noticeable when used. If you don't see a barrier, black coating or the black lightning around an attack, that attack did not have haki.



You seem very sure, when there are legitimate doubts.
There were no graphic signs of haki being used when Sanji fought Judge or when Law and Smoker fought.
It was indicated through dialogues, or when we assumed that Law used it to bypass Smoker intangibility.
When fighters of that caliber engage in battle i assume that haki is used commonly.
Might be wrong.



Strobacaxi said:


> Was he? His one attack didn't even tickle Drake, Drake's one casual swing of his tail bruised Sanji. It was very very clear that without RS Sanji wasn't going to beat Drake.
> I can't tell for sure, but Sanji's leg looks blackened in here



It's not politics.
None of us is trying to get elected at any costs.
We're debating and genuinely exchanging ideas and interpretations, we might disagree and call it quits, however let's try to honestly exchange and discuss, trying to understand the other side stance.
*In this debate, this specific point was about Law's superiority on a physical stand point compared to Sanji. So we talked about their durability and their COA.*
@convict was the one who introduced the question about law's durability comparatively to Sanji if i remember correctly.

That was the initial point:
Whether Law has a significant advantage compared to Sanji when it comes to durability and coa.
*I don't expect Sanji to be able to beat Drake or even dominate him in base when the tobbi ropo is using his fucking Zoan Form. These guys are on the same tier.*
However if Sanji is able to do that, is it really plausible that he would be at a significant disadvantage compared to Law when it comes to these stats?
Would Law fare far better fighting Drake like that relying on his durability and his haki without most of his skillset just like Sanji did?

I agree with you i think he used hardening which seems to be confirmed by the anime where he's using hardening all over the place.
A point contested for many years despite fodders using said ability, which is telling regarding the bias toward the character.




Strobacaxi said:


> No, I only replied to a small part of your coment, where you said that blocking Daifuku's attacks meant his CoA was on Law/Smoker level. I'm not particularly interested in this discussion in general just didn't agree with that point.


That argument wasn't mine.
Coupled with other instances however, like smoker and sanji comparable performances against vergo (all nerfed by plot, smoker using proportionally more of his arsenal like vergo did, compared to what vergo and sanji displayed), taking into account law and smoker dual.

*And Specially taking into account Sanji's COA clash against King:

*

Based on all of these datas, is it really plausible that Sanji would be significantly inferior to Law when it comes to durability and Haki?
Honestly?



Strobacaxi said:


> Well you can have it one of two ways:
> 
> Sanji didn't use haki against Vergo
> Sanji used haki against Vergo and his haki was so weak. that a non haki kick from Vergo broke his bone
> ...



That's the type of fallacy, and BS arguments that leads to nowhere.
I'm guilty of it too often, i admit it. Will try to be better.
This is partial and biased as fuck, you know why?
There is a third option who would favor Sanji but that you did not include, which intellectually speaking is disingenuous:
*Vergo using haki while sanji did not.*

Do i think it's plausible. No
I get it now, subtility and rethorical question are not for everyone, we must be careful some seem emotional (i'm not specifically talking about you).

*What i said was clear, i think that both used haki.
Might not be the case.*

And overall what was portrayed on WCI was clear, Vergo COA and durability stats were superior to Sanji and Smoker owns.
However based on Law's fight with Smoker and how he put down Vergo, i don't think at all that Law was physically superior to Vergo overall, simply by using his devil fruit on top of his physical strength+haki, he was able to take him down.
Hence why he used "room" before slicing him.....

All in all, the only thing i was saying and the discussion on which you commented was simply to highlight one point:
1) Law is stronger than Sanji, but they're on the same tier, which means that he would not stomp him.
How controversial!
2) I don't even think that Sanji's durability and COA far exceed law's own. Just that the opposite is also false. There is no significant gap.
If Law was physically (durability specially )  and when it comes to COA significantly superior to Sanji, he would absolutely destroy him.

I don't think that Law can fuck with Raid suit Sanji without his Ope Ope no mi.
*That should be telling, let's stripe them of all their weapons and inventory:
How would a sparring where they're only allowed to use their hakis and bodies go?
Law is clearly dominating Sanji in that scenario?
Which would be the case with significantly better coa and durability.
Let's be real.*
It's my opinion, not trying to convince anyone, we were just debating, an opportunity to educate ourselves by confronting our ideas.

I said my piece, it was fun while it lasted.
Peace.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> You've been part of this debate since the begining, so you're either misrepresenting my stance on purpose or simply too dumb to discern when someone is fucking around (trolling) or when he's making a legitimate argument. It could be both.
> I'm optimistic so i think you're playing dumb, either way it's a sign that continuing this discussion is pointless.



Nah I exactly know your stance and observed it for quite a while at this point.



> At this point Sanji may legit beat Zoro .
> Until he masters Enma that is.





> It's more debatable with Zoro thanks to his incredible endurance.
> I'd still give the edge to RS Sanji who has better durability.
> Zoro absolutely needs Enma, and he needs to totally unlock it though





> The favorite is clear, specially when it comes to Killer.





> Zoro needs all he's got to put him down.
> He's superior in terms of endurance, coa and Ap so nice match up. He needs all his advantage though nerfing his PU won't cut it. He needs Enma full power



I could keep going because alone this thread provides enough bullshit from you but I what use would it have.

At this point everyone here knows you're a greedy Sanji fanboy who puts Zoro high in the list of SN's just to claim Sanji is his nigh-equal and even stronger with the RS.




Mylesime said:


> That's my stance on this match up, and how i see Sanji faring against the SNs overall.
> I'm a lot of things, certainly not a liar. Stop being disingenuous and misrepresenting my arguments.



Spare me your bullshit, you believe Sanji beats Killer and Zoro and you're agreeing with your fellow Stan that Law and Kid aren't guaranteed to win against him.

Everyone here witnessed it.



Mylesime said:


> However, i overestimated you, you've been disingenuous and dishonest without even being funny, which is a no no in a debate.
> You know perfectly well the tone of the exchanges and are perfectly able to differentiate when we are talking shit.
> What you did is a kin to me claiming that you think that base Niji was able to two shot Sanji.
> You're not that Dumb, it's worse you're being dishonest.



Like I care about the opinion of a blatant troll and liar  



Mylesime said:


> Concerning Sanji's development, i don't give a darn about Sanji being a SN or not  ck
> Sanji's portrayal matches , no shit on most of theirs, and his place and role in the story is incomparable with most of them, with a few exceptions for whom i'm perfectly aware that they're stronger, and i wrote it (Zoro, Kidd, Law, Drake is a wildcard). Killer is not one of them.
> I'm honestly trying to understand  what you're trying to say, so unlike you , i'm not going to be full of shit.



> I don't give a darn about Sanji being a SN or not





Mylesime said:


> *You're not stupid enough to seriously think that a character is more relevant than Sanji in the story simply because he's a SN not when the last fucking arc was centered around him.
> You're not dumb enough to think that let's say fucking Apoo is more relevant in One Piece than Sanji.*



The only importance Sanji has going for him is being part of the main cast.

He is neither a SN nor has he any strength related dream which pushes most of them further away from his already weak-willed persona.

They started out as superior to him as top pirates of the current generation and so far most of them outshine Sanji.



Mylesime said:


> Don't give a darn how folks feel about it, might be wrong, not likely, does not matter.



Very likely but ignorance shall guide you.



Mylesime said:


> There is no point debating on that matter with you anymore evidently.
> We'll soon be fixed whether Killer is a more important character in the plot and the battle, and whether Sanji is a stronger and more impactful character or not.
> Looking forward to it.
> 
> ...



Enjoy the upcoming content especially after witnessing peak Sanji with his wedding cake at WCI.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

>it's 2021
>Still thinks strength related dream is necessary to achieve great strength
>Thinks sanji has a weak willed persona


>Thinks the super novas far "outshine" sanji
> Despite him having a bounty superior to most of them


>With sanji being hyped as the one to cause the WG the most trouble



Yep, @Mylesime , you can't be wasting time with these clowns

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 24, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> >With sanji being hyped as the one to cause the WG the most trouble


lol he was hyped by himself

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> lol he was hyped by himself


Given how Oda tends to bring declarations in One Piece into fruition, yeah the hype is real.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> >it's 2021
> >Still thinks strength related dream is necessary to achieve great strength
> >Thinks sanji has a weak willed persona



Remind me please where is Sanji right now? Or what the all blue is compared to the PK or Yonks?



Kroczilla said:


> >Thinks the super novas far "outshine" sanji
> > Despite him having a bounty superior to most of them



Yea but what has Sanji to do with the bounty his daddy raised for him? He should be happy Luffy pushed this bitch in WCI else he's still be stuck at 177M or without daddy at 77M.





Kroczilla said:


> >With sanji being hyped as the one to cause the WG the most trouble




*Spoiler*: __ 











"The Marines might not think much of me now..." 

Words so true, that's where his daddy asks to return a favour with a raise for his son or Luffy hard carries 



Kroczilla said:


> Yep, @Mylesime , you can't be wasting time with these clowns



We all just laugh together with you don't worry

Reactions: Funny 2 | Friendly 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Remind me please where is Sanji right now?


Getting held up by a female F6 and her gang. Which clearly means they are no longer on his lvl. Think Kalifa and Viola.




TheWiggian said:


> Or what the all blue is compared to the PK or Yonks?



Only Luffy is gonna be PK. Maybe Kid and Law (if he lives long enough) become Yonko tier. So what, that 3 out of 11.

Where the rest of the novas at?



TheWiggian said:


> Yea but what has Sanji to do with the bounty his daddy raised for him? He should be happy Luffy pushed this bitch in WCI else he's still be stuck at 177M or without daddy at 77M.


True, WCI wasn't the best, but my boy still put in the work while styling all a minister of big mom and clashing with the Empress herself.

My boy is ready for bigger things   






TheWiggian said:


> "The Marines might not think much of me now..."



He's being honest. They don't know what's coming





TheWiggian said:


> We all just laugh together with you don't worry




I have a feeling I will be the only one laughing, but sure, I'll keep you company

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## NotTommy (Jan 24, 2021)

Somehow Zoro and other Supernova got involved in this... I think Killer vs Sanji would be a high difficulty fight either way, personally. Killer has the better offense since he wounded Kaido a bit. That's better than anything Sanji has done so far. Killer also has the hype that comes with being on the roof against a Yonko. 

Sanji, with the raid suit, has the better durability, based on feats, e.g. tanking King's beak attack. Sanji has better Observation haki, speed and can turn invisible (I don't recall any Obsevation haki feats from Killer and considering no one has got past Sanji's invisibility so far, I don't feel as though Killer just gets the benefit of the doubt). 

I don't see what Page One has to do with this. Sanji was kicking the dude around and didn't take any damage from the fight. Page One didn't seem all that harmed but he was able to get up after an Elephant Gun so Sanji not being able to knock him out with a few Raid Suit kicks doesn't seem like that much of an anti-feat. Sanji didn't have the time to finish the fight (if we deduce that he ran) so him not knocking Page One out is understandable (especially when he didn't even bust out Diable Jambe).

The only reason Bonney (I'm mentioning her since someone claimed Sanji would lose to all Supernova, they were probably trolling but still...) would beat Sanji is cause she's female but with that in mind, she'd beat him easily. If Sanji was able to bring himself to harm her then he'd beat her just as easily. He's way faster and stronger than her (off feats as Bonney doesn't really have many).

Sanji gets floored by Luffy, obviously. Kid, Law and Zoro might have issues with Sanji's invisibility but they'd still probably beat him without too much issues. Can't say the same for Killer though.

By the end of Wano, there'll be more feats from both, Killer and Sanji, to compare so it'll be clearer then.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Neutral 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Getting held up by a female F6 and her gang. Which clearly means they are no longer on his lvl. Think Kalifa and Viola.



Oh so he is getting folded by fodder like most of the time. Good that you dodge the other question so i guess you won't even try to use mental gymnastics there.



Kroczilla said:


> Only Luffy is gonna be PK. Maybe Kid and Law (if he lives long enough) become Yonko tier. So what, that 3 out of 11.
> 
> *Where the rest of the novas at?*



On the roof unlike Sanji.



Kroczilla said:


> True, WCI wasn't the best, but my boy still put in the work while styling all a minister of big mom and clashing with the Empress herself.



Yea he put down YFM Bobbins and jobbed to battered base Luffy.



Kroczilla said:


> My boy is ready for bigger things



He definitely is





Kroczilla said:


> He's being honest. They don't know what's coming



How should they know whats coming if Marines don't even take him seriously by his own words? Post TS didn't seem to change anything as both his raises were thanks to other characters.   



Kroczilla said:


> I have a feeling I will be the only one laughing, but sure, I'll keep you company



Good so you know Sanji's place below the SN's.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

NotTommy said:


> Somehow Zoro and other Supernova got involved in this... I think Killer vs Sanji would be a high difficulty fight either way, personally. Killer has the better offense since he wounded Kaido a bit. That's better than anything Sanji has done so far. Killer also has the hype that comes with being on the roof against a Yonko.
> 
> Sanji, with the raid suit, has the better durability, based on feats, e.g. tanking King's beak attack. Sanji has better Observation haki, speed and can turn invisible (I don't recall any Obsevation haki feats from Killer and considering no one has got past Sanji's invisibility so far, I don't feel as though Killer just gets the benefit of the doubt).
> 
> ...



Here take a proper look at a true Sanji fan. He knows exactly what's up, he understands the character that comes with strengths and weaknesses. He is neutral.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 24, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> True, WCI wasn't the best, but my boy still put in the work



*Spoiler*: __ 












OT: could go either way, depends on the next couple of chapters.

Reactions: Funny 5 | Winner 1


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Here take a proper look at a true Sanji fan. He knows exactly what's up, he understands the character that comes with strengths and weaknesses. He is neutral.


You should learn a thing or two when it comes it your obsession with Zoro

Reactions: Winner 1 | Creative 1


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> OT: could go either way, depends on the next couple of chapters.


This guy just solved the thread.

/thread

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

Daisuke Jigen said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> You should learn a thing or two when it comes it your obsession with Zoro



Sry that iam not placing Sanji at 99,9% of Zoro in strength on top of mainly being the cook and having other qualities other than fighting.

I consider what the characters revolve around and what their dreams are, that 1 wants to stand at the top of the world in the fighting style he practices since he was a kid. Trains most of the time and is literally shown to be superior throughough the whole story by feats, hype and portrayal to the guy who wants to find a sea and cooks most of the time with not a single panel of training other than during the TS.

Iam such a biased Zoro wanker


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Sry that iam not placing Sanji at 99,9% of Zoro in strength on top of mainly being the cook and having other qualities other than fighting.
> 
> *I consider what the characters revolve around and what their dreams are*, that 1 wants to stand at the top of the world in the fighting style he practices since he was a kid. Trains most of the time and is literally shown to be superior throughough the whole story by feats, hype and portrayal to the guy who wants to find a sea and cooks most of the time with not a single panel of training other than during the TS.
> 
> Iam such a biased Zoro wanker


Ye and Robin is an archeologist that wants to make out the meaning of ancient texts and is stronger than the guy that wants to become a brave warrior of the sea


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Ye and Robin is an archeologist that wants to make out the meaning of ancient texts and is stronger than the guy that wants to become a brave warrior of the sea


usopp's dream is to not be a pussy

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> usopp's dream is to not be a pussy


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Ye and Robin is an archeologist that wants to make out the meaning of ancient texts and is stronger than the guy that wants to become a brave warrior of the sea





truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> usopp's dream is to not be a pussy



 ninja'd


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


>



Not sure what that dream has to do with strength and would make more sense if he actually meant that for real instead of still being a coward.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Not sure what that dream has to do with strength and would make more sense if he actually meant that for real instead of still being a coward.


Ye being a warrior has no correlation with strength, you're right

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Ye being a warrior has no correlation with strength, you're right




*Spoiler*: __ 













You can become brave despite being a weakling as Coby excellently proven here. All you do is arguing the definition of the word "warrior", warriors doesn't necessarily means to be strong:

_*warrior
noun


US *_

* /ˈwɔr·jər, ˈwɔr·i·ər/*

_*a person who has experience and skill in fighting, esp. as a soldier:*_
*The Apache chief Geronimo had a reputation as a fearless warrior.*


No one denies Usopp has skill as a sniper. No one denies strawhats get stronger, even the ones that aren't combatants. He even got reputation as God Usopp even if it's a gag, doesn't mean Usopp's dream is strength related.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I could use your logic to imply that Luffy's dreams isn't directly related to combat either. He's an adventurer that wants to find a treasure. But due to the difficulties involved in obtaining that treasure, it has become a goal that involves a lot of strength and combat.

You could say the same thing, or even more appropriately, about Usopp. Due to the nature of combatants the strawhats are facing, for him to become a "proud warrior" that doesn't just get oneshot, it's also clearly a strength related goal. Whether that strength is expressed through his preferred mode of combat, such as sniping, is irrelevant.

Also, we're dealing in dreams relative to other dreams. Obviously being a "proud warrior" is a dream that's more involved with combat and strength than the dreams of Sanji, Robin, Franky, Brook, Nami or Chopper on paper. That's just undisputable, sorry.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> I could use your logic to imply that Luffy's dreams isn't directly related to combat either. He's an adventurer that wants to find a treasure. But due to the difficulties involved in obtaining that treasure, it has become a goal that involves a lot of strength and combat.
> 
> You could say the same thing, or even more appropriately, about Usopp. Due to the nature of combatants the strawhats are facing, for him to become a "proud warrior" that doesn't just get oneshot, it's also clearly a strength related goal. Whether that strength is expressed through his preferred mode of combat, such as sniping, is irrelevant.
> 
> Also, we're dealing in dreams relative to other dreams. Obviously being a "proud warrior" is a dream that's more involved with combat and strength than the dreams of Sanji, Robin, Franky, Brook, Nami or Chopper on paper. That's just undisputable, sorry.



Iam not arguing about Luffy, although if he wants to be the person with the most freedom he needs to be the strongest else he always going to be under someone's wheels, while Usopp just needs to be brave, which he rarely is, but he can become brave with hundreds of characters above him.

I know that Zoro is clearly bound to a strength related goal.

No one else in the crew is remotely close to those 2 in terms of goals and willpower to reach them. That's why they're always referred to as the strongest of that crew and i see no issue with that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Igor (Jan 24, 2021)

Reply to topic:
From the point of view of achievements and creating a hypothetical scenario of struggle, I would give Sanji the victory.
But from a potrayal point of view, Sanji and Killer are comparable to Zoro, but definitely 1 step back, so this fight will be extremely difficult for either side.
But we will see until the end of the arc, I'm sure we will have more configurations and panels of how they compare

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Iam not arguing about Luffy, although if he wants to be the person with the most freedom he needs to be the strongest else he always going to be under someone's wheels, while Usopp just needs to be brave, which he rarely is, but he can become brave with hundreds of characters above him.


And if Usopp wants to be a "proud warrior" in a pirate king's crew, his dream is more strength related than the crew's navigator that wants to draw a bunch of maps, the cook that wants to discover a particular sea or archeologist that wants to read some ancient texts. They could all achieve their dreams while hiding out in the basement of the ship even if it's the pirate king's ship, yet they're all stronger than Usopp who has more strength related goal and at least as much resolve as those three.


TheWiggian said:


> I know that Zoro is clearly bound to a strength related goal.


Zoro has _the most _strength related goal in the crew yet he's not the strongest.


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## Igor (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> I know that Zoro is clearly bound to a strength related goal.
> 
> No one else in the crew is remotely close to those 2 in terms of goals and willpower to reach them. That's why they're always referred to as the strongest of that crew and i see no issue with that.



This is completely untrue, Sanji has already shown a high willpower too, although Zoro's is greater, Sanji's willpower is still highlighted above the other members of the mugiwaras.

Furthermore, the force group that has always been called ''strong'' or ''monsters'' throughout history has always been Luffy / Zoro / Sanji together: acting together and being the peak power of the crew, you are reading two piece if you're trying to get Sanji out of that equation


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> And if Usopp wants to be a "proud warrior" in a pirate king's crew, his dream is more strength related than the crew's navigator that wants to draw a bunch of maps, the cook that wants to discover a particular sea or archeologist that wants to read some ancient texts. They could all achieve their dreams while hiding out in the basement of the ship even if it's the pirate king's ship, yet they're all stronger than Usopp who has more strength related goal and at least as much resolve as those three.



I truly don't want to argue against Oda's own words:

*Usopp has been and will be the weakest in strawhats. ONE PIECE 10th Treasures (2007)*


So i see no reason to argue further that Usopp's dream is strength related.



Vivo Diez said:


> Zoro has _the most _strength related goal in the crew yet he's not the strongest.



No he has a clearly defined "strength related" dream. That's why he is the strongest after the captain.


*Spoiler*: __ 









There goes your argument.





Igor said:


> *This is completely untrue*, Sanji has already shown a high willpower too, *although Zoro's is greater*, Sanji's willpower is still highlighted above the other members of the mugiwaras.



What is untrue? Zoro's willpower is greater as you agree yourself. 

And where did i disagree with Sanji's willpower being stronger than the other strawhats minus Zoro and Luffy?



Igor said:


> Furthermore, the force group that has always been called ''strong'' or ''monsters'' throughout history has always been Luffy / Zoro / Sanji together: acting together and being the peak power of the crew, you are reading two piece if you're trying to get Sanji out of that equation



Never denied the monster trio. So no idea why you insult me for reading two piece.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> I truly don't want to argue against Oda's own words:
> 
> *Usopp has been and will be the weakest in strawhats. ONE PIECE 10th Treasures (2007)*
> 
> ...


I think you're misunderstanding your own argument. You said Zoro was stronger than Sanji on the basis of his dream and resolve. I AGREE with Oda that Usopp IS the weakest, despite having a strength related goal and the resolve, hence disproving your theory.


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## Great Potato (Jan 24, 2021)

stealthblack said:


> kamazo was orochi's betch. nuff said





Kroczilla said:


> Killer had been serving as Orochi's bitch for a while before zoro even came along.  He wasn't just tortured and sent out willy nilly.
> 
> Also the fact that his mind broke completely really doesn't inspire confidence. I bet Nami could have done better.



People are now dogging on Killer for becoming a hitman of Orochi after he was tortured and Kaido actually had his entire crew hostage... as though Sanji didn't literally beat up his own captain just because Big Mom and his family threw a few threats his direction.

Funny that you'd bring up Nami, because she proved against Ulti that she'd literally choose death before speaking a fraction o the disrespect Sanji was spewing on WCI.

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 3 | Useful 1


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Funny that you'd bring up Nami, because she proved against Ulti that she'd literally choose death before speaking a fraction o the disrespect Sanji was spewing on WCI.


Wasn't that just because he wanted to the protect the strawhats from getting involved in his affairs? Nami did the exact same thing in the Arlong Park arc.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> People are now dogging on Killer for becoming a hitman of Orochi after he was tortured and Kaido actually had his entire crew hostage... as though Sanji didn't literally beat up his own captain just because Big Mom and his family threw a few threats his direction


If you cannot tell the difference between what happened to Killer and the choices sanji made in WCI, then I don't know what to tell you.




Great Potato said:


> Funny that you'd bring up Nami, because she proved against Ulti that she'd literally choose death before speaking a fraction o the disrespect Sanji was spewing on WCI.


If you cannot tell the difference between Nami's circumstance and the choices sanji made in WCI....see above.

Also shout out to @Crispy Noodles 

Reviving your account just to diss me?

I am touched

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

Also my beef was never with Killer working for Orochi. It's the fact that he completely broke and couldn't recognise his own Captain/Partner.

Even sanji when he got caught up in the okama island bs (which in canon is his worst nightmare) was completely back to his normal self the moment he saw the newspaper with Ace's death. Coz he automatically knew his captain needed him.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> I think you're misunderstanding your own argument. You said Zoro was stronger than Sanji on the basis of his dream and resolve. I AGREE with Oda that Usopp IS the weakest, despite having a strength related goal and the resolve, hence disproving your theory.



Becoming a warrior is not something you need physical strength for as the word definition itself says that i posted before. So nothing was disproved especially by calling it my theory when it's clearly established in the story at this point is laughable.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Becoming a warrior is not something you need physical strength for as the word definition itself says that i posted before. So nothing was disproved especially by calling it my theory when it's clearly established in the story at this point is laughable.


And becoming the "the most free person" doesn't _by definition_ require strength, surely less strength than a warrior by any definition you can find, but you brought in the context of the series for that dream, so I brought in context for Usopp's dream


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## Lord Melkor (Jan 24, 2021)

I think they are at the same level, so it would be close fight. I believe Luffy is a bit above Kidd and Zoro a bit above Killer, placing Luffy's left hand at similar level as Kidd's right hand. Though it is possible that Luffy will be potrayed much stronger than Kidd by the end of this arc. Even though I would prefer for the power scaling to be closer - Kidd and Zoro being high difficulty fight for Luffy while Sanji and Killer are high difficulty fights for Kidd and Zoro.

Let's see how much Killer contributes to Yonkou defeat and how Sanji fight a Calamity.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Typhon (Jan 24, 2021)

The recency bias in this thread is ridiculous, especially coming from Zoro fans. All these "bad" feats Sanji had leading up to this battle while Killer's greatest claim to fame was putting a scythe in nerfed Zoro who was being attacked on two fronts... 

I'll remember this thread later this arc

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 4


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## Igor (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> What is untrue? Zoro's willpower is greater as you agree yourself.
> 
> And where did i disagree with Sanji's willpower being stronger than the other strawhats minus Zoro and Luffy?
> 
> ...


Well, you're saying as if Sanji didn't have the willpower to be compared to Zoro, which is not true.
Sanji's willpower is fine, and he too has a vested interest in getting stronger to protect the crew, due to his own words

''That's why they're always referred to as the strongest of that crew''
Well, this is where you go wrong by excluding Sanji, you are going directly against what Oda wanted to deal with the monster trio in the manga.
Luffy/Zoro/Sanji is what Oda wanted to treat as the crew’s strongest monsters, not just Luffy / Zoro


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> And becoming the "the most free person" doesn't _by definition_ require strength, surely less strength than a warrior by any definition you can find, but you brought in the context of the series for that dream, so I brought in context for Usopp's dream



Mihawk clearly says it's harder than becoming WSS so your argument has no legs to stand on. Usopp doesn't need to grow strong to become brave. Nothing else needs to be said. 

Once you prove why Usopp needs to become strong to become brave we can discuss this further.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Igor said:


> Well, you're saying as if Sanji didn't have the willpower to be compared to Zoro, which is not true.



He doesn't have you agreed yourself that Zoro's willpower is greater. I don't see your problem here.



Igor said:


> Sanji's willpower is fine, and he too has a vested interest in getting stronger to protect the crew, due to his own words



It is, never disagreed with that so again not sure why you bring that up.  



Igor said:


> ''That's why they're always referred to as the strongest of that crew''
> Well, this is where you go wrong by excluding Sanji, you are going directly against what Oda wanted to deal with the monster trio in the manga.
> Luffy/Zoro/Sanji is what Oda wanted to treat as the crew’s strongest monsters, not just Luffy / Zoro



_Never denied the monster trio. So no idea why you insult me for reading two piece._

Zoro and Luffy are simply above him as you yourself agree:



> Sanji has already shown a high willpower too, although Zoro's is greater, Sanji's willpower is still highlighted above the other members of the mugiwaras.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Mihawk clearly says it's harder than becoming WSS so your argument has no legs to stand on.


Mihawk gave context to Luffy's dream, whether it's based on strength or not wasn't stated. You can give context to Sanji's dream of finding All Blue being harder to achieve too. All Blue's existence isn't even confirmed, Zoro knew who was the world's strongest swordsman and met him at the beginning of the series.


TheWiggian said:


> Usopp doesn't need to grow strong to become brave. Nothing else needs to be said.
> 
> Once you prove why Usopp needs to become strong to become brave we can discuss this further.


Once you prove why becoming a brave _warrior, _in a _pirate king's_ crew, doesn't involve strength, we can discuss this further.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Mihawk gave context to Luffy's dream, whether it's based on strength or not wasn't stated. You can give context to Sanji's dream of finding All Blue being harder to achieve too. All Blue's existence isn't even confirmed, Zoro knew who was the world's strongest swordsman and met him at the beginning of the series.



*Harder than surpassing me (WSS strength).*

Nothing else needs to be said.



Vivo Diez said:


> Once you prove why becoming a brave _warrior, _in a _pirate king's_ crew, doesn't involve strength, we can discuss this further.



Brave = not related to do strength in any way. Try again.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> *Harder than surpassing me (WSS strength).*
> 
> Nothing else needs to be said.
> 
> ...


Why do you keep cutting out "warrior" out of the "brave warrior" equation? Are you that desperate   ?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Why do you keep cutting out "warrior" out of the "brave warrior" equation? Are you that desperate   ?



Because neither is declared to go hand in hand with physical strength, so it makes no difference to which i refer to. 

As i said before once you somehow prove his dream has something to do with strength we can continue this ^^

Reactions: Creative 1


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## stealthblack (Jan 24, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> People are now dogging on Killer for becoming a hitman of Orochi after he was tortured and Kaido actually had his entire crew hostage... as though Sanji didn't literally beat up his own captain just because Big Mom and his family threw a few threats his direction.
> 
> Funny that you'd bring up Nami, because she proved against Ulti that she'd literally choose death before speaking a fraction o the disrespect Sanji was spewing on WCI.


yeah, kamazo was kaidou's betch... betch, and not because his crew was captured, fake news


sanji situation is different, it's like all shs had entire friends captured, not same as nami thing


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Why do you keep cutting out "warrior" out of the "brave warrior" equation? Are you that desperate   ?


Because the brave part is the important one. A warrior doesn't have to be strong to be a warrior. Usopp already is a warrior, every SH is, but he's not brave. His dream is to be brave, not strong

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Because neither is declared to go hand in hand with physical strength, so it makes no difference to which i refer to.
> 
> As i said before once you somehow prove his dream has something to do with strength we can continue this ^^


Alright guys, I got beat by @TheWiggian.

He can't see how being a *warrior*, that involves *fighting*, has anything to do with *strength   *

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## Mylesime (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Alright guys, I got beat by @TheWiggian.
> 
> He can't see how being a *warrior*, that involves *fighting*, has anything to do with *strength  *



These guys are the best.

You just have to not be the one engaging in a debate with them in order to thouroughly enjoy the discussion.
Incredible mental gymnastic.
Warrior? Not related to strength. Nope.
Sanji? He's a fucking cook



You made my day.
God bless you all.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## NotTommy (Jan 24, 2021)

Personally, I feel like Usopp's dream is somewhat connected with strength but it depends. Considering a lot of his plotlines involve his weakness and inability, it would make sense that his dream is finally fulfilled with him becoming strong but at the end of the day it's all about Usopp and what he defines as a brave warrior and what he'll be satisfied with. If he becomes strong then he'll have nothing to fear but at the same time he might gain his confidence before becoming that a lot stronger. Depends how Oda takes it but based on how he's progresses so far, I'm not so sure anymore. The dude's almost at Elbalf. It's now (Wano) or never but I have hope.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Because the brave part is the important one. A warrior doesn't have to be strong to be a warrior. Usopp already is a warrior, every SH is, but he's not brave. His dream is to be brave, not strong


But that doesn't make sense particularly in the context of the story. Ussop has always romanticised strength. It the reason why he was so enamored by the giants at little garden and is obsessed with going to elbaf, the strongest country in the world.

Clearly in taking those facts into account, it seems to be a no-brainer that Ussop wants to be a mighty warrior. Just like the giants he idolises.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Alright guys, I got beat by @TheWiggian.
> 
> He can't see how being a *warrior*, that involves *fighting*, has anything to do with *strength  *



Just look up the word, i believe is posted 1 definition already. 



Mylesime said:


> These guys are the best.
> 
> You just have to don't be the one engaging in a debate with them in order to thouroughly enjoy the discussion.
> Incredible mental gymnastic.
> ...



I know it's hard to accept facts that warrior is closely tied to bravery and being fearless more than anything related to physical might. 

I mean i was not the one who defined that word. It's up for you guys to disprove that.

It won't change the fact that Oda forever will have Usopp as the weakest strawhat either.


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 24, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> But that doesn't make sense particularly in the context of the story. Ussop has always romanticised strength. It the reason why he was so enamored by the giants at little garden and is obsessed with going to elbaf, the strongest country in the world.
> 
> Clearly in taking those facts into account, it seems to be a no-brainer that Ussop wants to be a mighty warrior. Just like the giants he idolises.


Pretty sure he was enamored by the giants at little garden because of their pride as warriors, not their strength

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Because the brave part is the important one. A warrior doesn't have to be strong to be a warrior. Usopp already is a warrior, every SH is, but he's not brave. His dream is to be brave, not strong


And a person that wants to be the most "free person" has even less to do with being strong than a warrior until you give it in-verse context. On paper, which is what I've bee saying this whole time, Usopp's dream involves the most strength after Zoro.

If the context for Luffy's dream of being the freeist person and/or finding one piece is that suddenly he has to beat a bunch of yonko, then in the same vein suddenly Ussop's "brave warrior" dream becomes that he has to prove that he's a brave warrior when pitted against the strongest crews in the verse.

I'm not even arguing if Usopp will manage it or not, my whole argument is a _counter argument _to the claim that the type of dream someone has and the resolve behind the dream is a primary indicator of how strong one person is to another.

Whitebeard never had any grand dreams of finding One Piece or becoming world's strongest, his dream was to have a family. But because of the circumstances he found himself in he became one of the strongest people in the verse. Rayleigh didn't even seem to have a dream, he just followed Roger and his dream, and still became one of the strongest in the verse. In the same vein, Sanji's dream can be unrelated to becoming world's strongest at anything, but because of the circumstances he finds himself in, hypothetically he can become stronger than those people that had a "world's strongest" type goal.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> And a person that wants to be the most "free person" has even less to do with being strong than a warrior until you give it inverse context. On paper, which is what I've bee saying this whole time, Usopp's dream involves the most strength after Zoro.
> 
> If the context for Luffy's dream of being the freeist person and/or finding one piece is that suddenly he has to beat a bunch of yonko, then in the same vein suddenly Ussop's "brave warrior" dream becomes that he has to prove that he's a brave warrior when pitted against the strongest crews in the verse.
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 















Manga clearly disagrees with you.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Pretty sure he was enamored by the giants at little garden because of their pride as warriors, not their strength


It was both. A part of Ussop's reason for wanting to go to Elbaf is the train with the giants and become a brave warrior of the sea.


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## Mylesime (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> I know it's hard to accept facts that warrior is closely tied to bravery and being fearless more than anything related to physical might.
> 
> I mean i was not the one who defined that word. It's up for you guys to disprove that.
> 
> It won't change the fact that Oda forever will have Usopp as the weakest strawhat either.



You can't be that dumb like i already told you.
You're disingenuous.
To the point where you're trying to argue that wanting to be a warrior is not strength related.
This is self explanatory.
Ussop wants to be both, brave and strong.
Otohime is not the symbol, the archetype he wants to reach, it's related to fucking Vikings and Giants.

This is not power level related. We had a whole arc where this was touched upon:
*Ennies loby and Water 7:
Ussop was brave when he tried to resist to Franky , he was brave when he faced Luffy while everybody knew he could not win.*
The other strawhats were then trying to preserve his pride as a warrior.
He was brave against Jyabura.
What killed him and hurt his pride was his inability to protect the money, his inability to match Jyabura.
His inferiority complex, his fear to be a dead weight like the merry,etc,etc.

But go ahead enlighten us and explain to us how Ussop's dream is not strength related, more so than Robin focused on Knowledge (law too for that matter).
You're being ridiculous.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I literally said that if Luffy's "on paper" dream got adjusted because he was given context of what it means to find one piece and be king of pirates in reality, and how that would shift the realities of Usopp's dream as well because he would be involved in battles against some of the strongest crews in the verse because suddenly Luffy needs to beat those crews to fulfill his dream. Did I say that hasn't happened? What are you even trying to prove here  ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## NotTommy (Jan 24, 2021)

Considering that this thread has gone on for so long and that right now Sanji isn't even getting panels and Killer is on the roof, I feel like this would make a better bet thread since things can change pretty quickly after each week.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Sloan (Jan 24, 2021)

Ussop’s dream doesn’t neccesarily mean he would become strong but he’s obviously not Pre-TS Coby level who himself was brave for standing up to Akainu despite knowing he was about to die after already seeing him kill a marine soldier prior.  Ussop will get stronger still from now to the end.


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## Ruse (Jan 24, 2021)

RS Sanji >= Killer > Base Sanji

Probably

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

NotTommy said:


> Considering that this thread has gone on for so long and that right now, Sanji isn't even getting panels and Killer is on the roof, I feel like this would make a better bet thread since things can change pretty quickly after each week.


Yeah, I can get behind this.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> I literally said that if Luffy's "on paper" dream got adjusted because he was given context of what it means to find one piece and be king of pirates in reality, and how that would shift the realities of Usopp's dream as well because he would be involved in battles against some of the strongest crews in the verse because suddenly Luffy needs to beat those crews to fulfill his dream. Did I say that hasn't happened? What are you even trying to prove here  ?



PK is the man with the most freedom on the sea


*Spoiler*: __ 









He can't be the man with the most freedom if he doesn't become PK. By his own dream he needs to beat admirals and Yonko to become PK:


*Spoiler*: __ 











Luffy's dream is directly bound to overcome the strongest alive characters in the verse.

You haven't provided a single panel of who Usopp wants to surpass other than him wanting to become a "brave warrior" of the sea, while Luffy and Zoro clearly have to prove and overcome massive opponents to reach their goal. You can't prove warrior is tied to becoming physically strong, even by definition you failed to give us an example how it's tied to strength.




Mylesime said:


> You can't be that dumb like i already told you.
> You're disingenuous.
> To the point where you're trying to argue that wanting to be a warrior is not strength related.
> This is self explanatory.
> ...



I never disagreed that Usopp will become stronger just that the "brave warrior" dream isn't strength related 

You guys had ample opportunities to prove otherwise but decided to stop with this panel:



Which isn't related to strength in any way. He clearly reflects that he would like to look back at his adventures and see a brave man that doesn't run from fights like a coward but faces his fears, heck "brave warrior".



Mylesime said:


> This is not power level related. We had a whole arc where this was touched upon:
> *Ennies loby and Water 7:
> Ussop was brave when he tried to resist to Franky , he was brave when he faced Luffy while everybody knew he could not win.*
> The other strawhats were then trying to preserve his pride as a warrior.
> ...



So why didn't he get stronger then? Why is he still hiding with Nami and Chopper or runs from opponents?





That's what he wants to overcome, his fear, nothing indicates he needs to physically become stronger for that but man up and grow a set of balls which he even manages sometimes for which you even gave the examples above. He is weak-willed, that's why he constantly goes back to hiding.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Great Potato (Jan 24, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Also my beef was never with Killer working for Orochi. It's the fact that he completely broke and couldn't recognise his own Captain/Partner.
> 
> Even sanji when he got caught up in the okama island bs (which in canon is his worst nightmare) was completely back to his normal self the moment he saw the newspaper with Ace's death. Coz he automatically knew his captain needed him.



Killer not recognizing Kid is some head-canon you just made up; they got dragged to the prison together and the second they were free he was following Kid no questions asked. Never once was he seen questioning who Kid was.

Lol at thinking Sanji being homophobic, in a scenario that's played for laughs, is at all comparable to Killer's situation.



stealthblack said:


> yeah, kamazo was kaidou's betch... betch, and not because his crew was captured, fake news
> 
> 
> sanji situation is different, it's like all shs had entire friends captured, not same as nami thing



Hawkins straight up told Law that the reason Killer was forced into compliance is because they had Kid captured and were using him as leverage threatening to kill him if he did not follow their orders. Once Kid was freed their first move was to then go rescue the rest of the crew.

Unlike Killer's situation, nobody was actually captured when Sanji attacked his captain, they were just threatening to do so. Luffy and Nami then got captured afterwards because of Sanji's actions.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 6


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> PK is the man with the most freedom on the sea
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


>Usopp doesn't have a goal of becoming stronger
>Posts a panel of Usopp showing that he wants to become stronger than Nami and Chopper

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | GODA 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Killer not recognizing Kid is some head-canon you just made up; they got dragged to the prison together and the second they were free he was following Kid no questions asked. Never once was he seen questioning who Kid was.


Yeah I got that absolutely wrong. 


Great Potato said:


> Lol at thinking Sanji being homophobic, in a scenario that's played for laughs, is at all comparable to Killer's situation.



Except okamas are literally his worst nightmare. His most powerful state so far is having memories of his time there. It's a gag but at the same time a real fear of Sanji's



Great Potato said:


> Unlike Killer's situation, nobody was actually captured when Sanji attacked his captain, they were just threatening to do so.


Not remotely the same scenario. Sanji was trying to get them to leave, by making an open show of breaking off from the crew to go ahead with the wedding.




Great Potato said:


> Luffy and Nami then got captured afterwards because of Sanji's actions.




Because of Sanji's actions? You really think they wouldn't have gotten captured in the middle of yonko territory after just taking out a commander?

Regardless of what sanji did, their getting captured was a forgone conclusion the moment they trusted pudding to help them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> >Usopp doesn't have a goal of becoming stronger
> >Posts a panel of Usopp showing that he wants to become stronger than Nami and Chopper



@Vivo Diez  looks at the left panel: "My headcanon is true, Usopp became stronger than Nami and Chopper".

Ignores the right panel 300 chapters later where Usopp hides with Nami and Chopper.

Ignores Oda saying Usopp will always be the weakest strawhat member.



Never change my man, never change


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## NotTommy (Jan 24, 2021)

I always wondered if Usopp referring to them as the "weakling trio" was in the official translation. If so, have Luffy, Zoro and Sanji ever been referred to as the "Monster trio," or is it just them being highlighted as the monsters of the crew like at Alabasta?


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

NotTommy said:


> I always wondered if Usopp referring to them as the "weakling trio" was in the official translation. If so, have Luffy, Zoro and Sanji ever been referred to as the "Monster trio," or is it just them being highlighted as the monsters of the crew like at Alabasta?


I think Nami referred to them as the 3 monsters (of the crew) in Thriller bark.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Ignores Oda saying Usopp will always be the weakest strawhat member.


But Ussop isn't the weakest member.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> @Vivo Diez  looks at the left panel: "My headcanon is true, Usopp became stronger than Nami and Chopper".
> 
> Ignores the right panel 300 chapters later where Usopp hides with Nami and Chopper.
> 
> ...


Wiggian: Dream and resolve is a primary indicator of strength that would put certain strawhats over others
Wiggian: Argues for Usopp being the weakest, _despite_ having a more strength related goal than the majority of the strawhats. Even posts manga panels to support him having strength related goals. Proving his own theory false.
Wiggian: Haha, I win!

Do I even need to post? I should just wait for you to self destruct on your own

Reactions: Funny 1 | GODA 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

NotTommy said:


> I always wondered if Usopp referring to them as the "weakling trio" was in the official translation. If so, have Luffy, Zoro and Sanji ever been referred to as the "Monster trio," or is it just them being highlighted as the monsters of the crew like at Alabasta?



@Kishido look at this guys sig, it explains the monster trio.



Kroczilla said:


> But Ussop isn't the weakest member.



Oda's words:

*Usopp has been and will be the weakest in strawhats. ONE PIECE 10th Treasures (2007)*





Vivo Diez said:


> Wiggian: Dream and resolve is a primary indicator of strength that would put certain strawhats over others
> Wiggian: Argues for Usopp being the weakest, _despite_ having a more strength related goal than the majority of the strawhats. Even posts manga panels to support him having strength related goals. Proving his own theory false.
> Wiggian: Haha, I win!
> 
> Do I even need to post? I should just wait for you to self destruct on your own



Please if Usopp has a strength related dream there should be some panels of it no? Who does he wants to surpass? Nami and Chopper?

Show me those strength related panels, i believe i showed you enough of Luffy and Zoro, why can't you even muster up a single panel then?


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## stealthblack (Jan 24, 2021)

I still didn't see answer on how killer deals with flight, invisibility, Speed, just random kamazo blabering

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Oda's words:
> 
> *Usopp has been and will be the weakest in strawhats. ONE PIECE 10th Treasures (2007)*


But Ussop isn't the weakest member.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> But Ussop isn't the weakest member.



Discuss that with Oda

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Discuss that with Oda


Just got off the phone with him. Apparently he was high as fuck when he made that comment.

Gonna be issuing a retraction pretty soon.


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Just got off the phone with him. Apparently he was high as fuck when he made that comment.
> 
> Gonna be issuing a retraction pretty soon.



I can't do more than showing the evidence, source and translation. If you decide to ignore that well that's just how it is


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## NotTommy (Jan 24, 2021)

Ya'll could've just made another thread to discuss this. As far as the Usopp being the "weakest member" goes, it's unclear if Oda simply means physical strength or overall. Maybe Usopp will simply focus on his haki and slingshot. The guy has already faced 2 Flying Six members this arc and he stalled them and even took plenty of hits from them. I'd say he isn't really the weakest anymore, not after Nami lost Zeus and Chopper's sat around doing nothing, combat-wise, most arcs (though atleast he has Monster Point). Usopp's resourceful and he relies on the supplies he has (as well as his haki but we haven't seen too much from that). He's already beaten pretty strong opponents before, e.g. Chew, Perona. He'll probably always rely on his smarts though (hence his arsenal and Observation haki).


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## Sloan (Jan 24, 2021)

NotTommy said:


> Ya'll could've just made another thread to discuss this. As far as the Usopp being the "weakest member" goes, it's unclear if Oda simply means physical strength or overall. Maybe Usopp will simply focus on his haki and slingshot. The guy has already faced 2 Flying Six members this arc and he stalled them and even took plenty of hits from them. I'd say he isn't really the weakest anymore, not after Nami lost Zeus and Chopper's sat around doing nothing, combat-wise, most arcs (though atleast he has Monster Point). Usopp's resourceful and he relies on the supplies he has (as well as his haki but we haven't seen too much from that). He's already beaten pretty strong opponents before, e.g. Chew, Perona. He'll probably always rely on his smarts though (hence his arsenal and Observation haki).


I don’t think it really matters if Ussop remains the weakest even EoS.  I’d wager the weakest three SH’s EoS could defeat a Flying 6 or someone like Oven/Daifuku by themselves 1on1.  Which is still incredibly strong.

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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2021)

NotTommy said:


> Ya'll could've just made another thread to discuss this. As far as the Usopp being the "weakest member" goes, it's unclear if Oda simply means physical strength or overall. Maybe Usopp will simply focus on his haki and slingshot. The guy has already faced 2 Flying Six members this arc and he stalled them and even took plenty of hits from them. I'd say he isn't really the weakest anymore, not after Nami lost Zeus and Chopper's sat around doing nothing, combat-wise, most arcs (though atleast he has Monster Point). Usopp's resourceful and he relies on the supplies he has (as well as his haki but we haven't seen too much from that). He's already beaten pretty strong opponents before, e.g. Chew, Perona. He'll probably always rely on his smarts though (hence his arsenal and Observation haki).



Nami is right there with Usopp. Nothing indicates he surpassed her or Chopper in some way and Oda's statement isn't contradicted. Usopp's endurance and tenacity has always been shown to be plenty good even at the time of Oda's statement.

Point is he is still within that trio and most probably will remain there till EoS as his goal is not to become stronger than them but being brave.

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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 24, 2021)

Usopp wants to be a brave warrior of the sea. He wants to get over his weaknesses which is both being a coward and not being able to pull his weight at times. His goal has to do with strength insofar as he wants to overcome who he is. Strong for usopp is ambiguous he’s not aiming to be some kind of pinnacle. In the case of wsm, wss, wsc, pk they’re looking at far more definite levels of strength that they have to reach to achieve their goal. We have a benchmark. For all we know usopp could become a brave warrior of the sea by becoming as strong as vergo.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Usopp wants to be a brave warrior of the sea. He wants to get over his weaknesses which is both being a coward and not being able to pull his weight at times. His goal has to do with strength insofar as he wants to overcome who he is. Strong for usopp is ambiguous he’s not aiming to be some kind of pinnacle. In the case of wsm, wss, wsc, pk they’re looking at far more definite levels of strength that they have to reach to achieve their goal. We have a benchmark. For all we know usopp could become a brave warrior of the sea by becoming as strong as vergo.


I personally think Ussop will become a brave warrior of the sea mostly due to reputation as a sniper and his uncanny luck. 

It's been hinted that Ussop parallels Noland in that while Noland was a absolutely honest person whose fantastic tales were seen as falsehoods, Ussop is a liar whose tales will unwittingly come true.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jan 24, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> I personally think Ussop will become a brave warrior of the sea mostly due to reputation as a sniper and his uncanny luck.
> 
> It's been hinted that Ussop parallels Noland in that while Noland was a absolutely honest person whose fantastic tales were seen as falsehoods, Ussop is a liar whose tales will unwittingly come true.


I think his achievement will be more poetic than say zoro’s being a better slasher than everyone else so I agree essentially. My only point is that usopp’s goal is tied to self improvement as a means of self worth so he’s going to become “strong” whatever that means.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 24, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> I think his achievement will be more poetic than say zoro’s being a better slasher than everyone else so I agree essentially. My only point is that usopp’s goal is tied to self improvement as a means of self worth so he’s going to become “strong” whatever that means.


Seems like he got over his self worth issues at Ennies Lobby after Sanji's speech given that he could pull off what the "monsters" of the crew couldn't.

Not sure there's anywhere up from that moment for him.

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## Vivo Diez (Jan 24, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Usopp wants to be a brave warrior of the sea. He wants to get over his weaknesses which is both being a coward and not being able to pull his weight at times. His goal has to do with strength insofar as he wants to overcome who he is. Strong for usopp is ambiguous he’s not aiming to be some kind of pinnacle. In the case of wsm, wss, wsc, pk they’re looking at far more definite levels of strength that they have to reach to achieve their goal. We have a benchmark. For all we know usopp could become a brave warrior of the sea by becoming as strong as vergo.


I agree, but the definition of "pulling your own weight" basically means he has to keep getting stronger as the strawhats face stronger enemies. Naturally, everyone is getting stronger, but most of their self worth, outside of Zoro and maybe Luffy, isn't tied to being strong and brave. Hence the whole discussion about it being partly a strength orientated goal as you acknowledge.

So taking all of that into account, Usopp still being one of the weakest members of the crew while having a strength orientated goal, proves once and for all that the type of dream your have isn't enough to dictate how strong you'll become . Hence one cannot claim Zoro is stronger than Sanji just on the basis of the type of dream Zoro has   .

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Kinjin (Jan 24, 2021)

I'm receiving reports left and right so...

Please go back to the original topic which is Sanji vs Killer and keep it civil.


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## convict (Jan 26, 2021)

*Spoiler*: __ 






> So I guess this is a concession of the whole Killer Vs Sanji bit.



Seeing your comprehension over the past several posts I am not surprised this is the conclusion you drew.



> Again, there is the example of P1, you know, the guy who sensed Luffy despite not being able to see him. Yet from his perspective, sanji disappeared. It's quite clear based on his scuffle with Luffy that P1 uses COO in combat to atleast sense his opponent. Yet he couldn't sense sanji



As the runt of the flying 6 who might face Usopp Sanji should theoretically be able to blitz him regardless of being invisible or not. Add in invisibility and P1 has no chance. P1 was also completely unaware about this power initially. If you recall, even without turning invisible he didn’t sense Sanji above him so clearly he was sporadically using CoO.

Regardless. I already posted that it was just invisibility and nothing more.



> He locked on based on common sense that something or someone was lifting Momo up.



Yes. I never stated otherwise. But as soon as he went in to battle mode then there was no further evidence of the him being unable to locate Sanji as Sanji was fully uncovered afterwards. And once again how much you can glean about someone depends on your mastery of observation. Which is why someone with only basic mastery might not deduce another presence in the middle of many.



> Sanji is literally a novice at the raid suit. You literally ranted in your post about how sanji isn't a scientist, yet suddenly now sanji is an expert on a tech he doesn't fully understand yet.



Really?  

I posted evidence directly from the horse’s mouth that the raid suit just makes you invisible, it doesn’t make you vanish as QUOTED by Sanji and you think Sanji isn’t smart enough to know what he is talking about? You are? You know better about the raid suit than Sanji? You have to be a scientist to USE the raid suit? Take your L. The raid suit makes you invisible as stated by its user. That is it.



> Still bringing up law using COA in comparison to sanji not using it.



What I am doing is trying to hammer into your thick skull that Law not only has more hype than Sanji he also has an impressive CoA feat than Sanji. What defensive feat does Sanji have without the raid suit that can compare? Thought so.

Law’s armament > Sanji’s. His mountain buster also completely overwhelmed Vergo’s Haki.



> >Using feats from sanji in an injured body
> >Ignoring the fact sanji has far better feats since
> >Still can't produce any for zoro



Zoro doesn’t have any negative feats that Sanji has unfortunately. And it is clear as day you are trying your best to weasel your way with excuses. Nami being in Sanji’s body gives him osteoporosis apparently. No evidence that his bones were damaged beforehand. You fail to show evidence of that.

Once again those who make the positive claim have to prove it. I can’t prove that they weren’t weakened as that is a fundamental tenet of debate. You can’t prove a negative. Just like how atheists can’t prove that God isn’t real. Onus is on theologists for proving it.

There wasn’t even any allusion to his bones being weakened. No mention of it at all.



> Which seemed to be part of his new get up as Kamazou. He had been working for Orochi even before the SHs came to town


Bandages were his fashion sense? 

Come off it man.



> Yeah, this is all just a load of bull. Zoro improved onigiri and Luffy equally drastically improved his base stats.
> 
> G2/3 aren't the new base and even if they were, you can't prove that improved onigiri has somehow transcended a regular bazooka when Luffy equally improved every single stats including his base stats.
> 
> So yeah, Killer gets one shot. My boi probably won't even need a diable jambe for this



Jet pistol was blocked by Hyouzou genius. The same guy that Rengoku Onigiri oneshotted. Pre skip a G2 jet pistol was stronger than base attacks.

You should look yourself in the mirror and slap yourself for saying something so amateur.

Zoro doesn’t have new forms so of course his base attacks grew much stronger while Luffy focused on G2/G3 and G4 during the timeskip.

Sanji hasn’t ever knocked anyone notable out without DJ. Heck he has only knocked Wadatsumi out an injured Wadatsumi WITH DJ. He probably wouldn’t knock Killer out if Killer closed his eyes and Sanji was wailing away for an hour without DJ.



> Does zoro have the feats of cutting through armament using onigiri?
> 
> Do you believe law's armament is weaker than Pica whom zoro used a move miles above onigiri to cut through?
> 
> Now if we were talking post Enma zoro, I give him the benefit of doubt. But when you provide feats of zoro using onigiri to cut armament, we can talk.



He’s used onigiri twice before Enma. Once oneshotting a fellow supernova and once Hyouzou. Are you under the impression that Zoro is Luffy that he would display such attacks 10 times to readers? This is what I am talking about calling you a feat-monkey. Now we use portrayal to rationalize a little bit. Zoro and Law are close in power and Zoro is a stronger pure swordsman. Zoro is the type to pretty much eliminate peers of his level if he gets one strike in. That is why whenever we see him fight he always does that. Be it Hyouzou, The tentacles. The dragon (who was easily withstanding G2 Haki attacks), Pica, Killer, Hawkins’s card, or Apoo. If Law can easily withstand a rengoku onigiri with just his arms without even using his sword, knowing Zoro is a CoA specialist, then Law with his fruit is tiers above Zoro.

Zoro against Pica was chasing him throughout Dressrosa and at that point was going all out so that Pica couldn’t escape. It was overkill. Just like Law and Vergo.



> The fact is sanji has doffy on the defensive.
> 
> You think a fodder could have done that?
> 
> Fact is doffy called sanji strong


“Defensive”. Doffy was as defensive against Sanji as Big Mom was against Luffy.

No I don’t think Zoro could beat Doffy at that time but I do think Doffy wouldn’t make the mistake of casually blocking his attacks with his arm while sniggering.

Doffy calling Sanji strong was also not mocking. Similar to Kaido calling Zoro’s attack impressive. For the expectations placed on Zoro/Sanji by their opponents they did overall well even though they weren’t remotely comparable to their opponents at the time.



> All of which sanji knows by heart or atleast has an idea of. And what exactly is versatile about slicing people?



Knowing about them and dealing with them are two different things. Come on. Tornadoes, piercing attacks, range slashes, AoE slahes, Asura etc. Slashing is how he achieves damage but the techniques used to reach that end game are very different.



> Range as I explained is a non factor. Fucking Luffy was styling all over Mihawk's ranged attacks and jozu could straight up run over and intercept them. Neither is at Sanji's lvl of speed and mobility. And that's without raid suit.



Mihawk was testing him. Luffy was also dodging Mihawk’s close combat attacks too. The extended running scene of Jozu was anime only. Of course it isn’t a non-factor. Just because Sanji can get around it doesn’t mean it is something he has to look out for and take measures against (just like invisibility). It is one factor of many.



> Kaku had Mobility which he rarely used in the fight, instead straight up clashing head on with zoro for the most parts. And ^ (use bro) stop lying. Kaku was in no way, shape or form faster than zoro. By the time the arrive at the tower of justice, all the M3 and even franky had already adapted to soru



Zoro was of course slower than Kaki. Kaku is someone with stats comparable to Zoro but literally trained in a speed technique. Put 1 and 1 together. Read the fight again there were multiple attacks performed by Kaki in which he closed the distance rapidly and Zoro barely reacted to them but he did. Zoro made up for it with his reflexes which is why I keep bringing those up. Zoro doesn’t have close to the movement feats as Kaku. Just because you adapt to a skill doesn’t mean you are more adept at that skill.



> Bringing up geology
> >When talking about a SPEEDING METEOR
> 
> >Thinks basic physics required expertise



Of course I am bringing up the hardness of the rocks in a debate about whether Zoro can cut the rock. Jesus.

Also, despite pretending to know something you haven’t even given any sort of explanation about your position for me to debunk. So all you are doing is blowing hot air.



> "Slicing up rocks in in front of you is a better situational awareness feat that avoiding a surprise attack from an FM and detecting a sniper"
> 
> You heard is here first, folks



You aren’t getting it. Dodging the bean and locating the sniper are observation Haki feats. We already know Sanji has good observation. That is different from being a quick decision maker. Someone who is aware of not just people but the overall environment and can react. Zoro was on the cusp of oblivion. All of them were aware they were being poisoned but Zoro held out longest analyzed how to create a safe landing for everyone a despite being almost knocked out and barely was able to do so. But in doing so he saved everyone.



> Again sanji was in a weaker body. I really ought to find a retard-proof method of explaining the concept
> 
> *Thinks for a bit*
> 
> ...



You need to read that scene again with correct translation. The cool brothers linked tolerating the gas to the ability to tolerate drinks. And we know Nami is numero uno in that. Sanji in Nami’s body even got up before Zoro and woke him up. Sanji/Zoro lost consciousness moments apart but Zoro kept pushing further to make sure everyone was safe before passing out.



> Or could it simply be that they got the idea of zoro's feat from capturing Mr. 1 post defeat. Btw, Mr. 2 wasn't captured until well after Arabasta (there's apparently an entire cover story on this)
> 
> Lol this ^ (use bro) trying to paint Morgans as some big brother type figure



Oh so they made Mr 1 talk?

Playing with hypotheticals then to prove your nonsense? If I was as stupid as you I could claim they made Doffy talk about all the events of Dressrosa post-defeat. Lets be real Doffy is way more talkative than Mr. 1. They probably wouldn’t need to ask.

Morgans is pretty much that. He is portrayed to having eyes and ears everywere. Nami, Chopper, and Brook also had bounty bumps despite minimal presence in Dressrosa.



> Crocodile would make scrap metal out of Mr. 1. Heck even his hook is more durable as it clashed evenly with Mihawk right after Mr. 1 got out down.
> 
> Lucci would based on feats ripped jyabura and Kaku to shreds. Apart from douriki he was the only one to have mastered all roushiki techniques.
> 
> In dressrosa, doffy would shit all over pica with far greater ease and without any assistance.



As I said in Dressrosa the difference is irrelevant as Zoro sandbagged Pica who was pretty much just running away from him. Lucci was obviously stronger than them and would beat them handily. But he wasn’t multiple tiers stronger. Mr. 1 blocked Mihawk’s attack before going down. Crocodile is obviously stronger, but give Mr 1 some water and he would get some good hits in before going down. He would be able to defend multiple attacks from arabasta croc as he was far more durable than Luffy at the time but would get dehydrated in the end.



> Who has acknowledged Luffy as being on his way to the very heights of power. And yeah, he called them all monsters but Luffy has by far the most hype and worthwhile acknowledgement.



This is just the beginning of that fight. Lets wait and see how Zoro will impress him.



> Yeah, sorry. I missed the part where the crew were like
> 
> " That guy is tots the second strongest. Only zoro can deal with him"



And they never said “this guy is the strongest and only Luffy can deal with him” either. They have commented that Luffy takes it upon itself to go for the strongest and they were worried about him. As I said, internally no one is ever going to say Luffy is stronger than Zoro or Zoro is stronger than Sanji. That is just not how the crew characterizes things.



> Yet in a serious moment, zoro has never been shown straight up outclassing sanji. If anything their performance is generally about par.



They have never fought each other and rarely fought side by side. Against the Pacista when they fought together Zoro was injured yet still he was given the honors of the second last strike before Luffy.

Against Oars Zoro was overall head and shoulders more impressive:

Sanji was closest and attacked first and the attack didn’t even register and he was stomped
Zoro used his gorilla strike and actually made Oars dodge it partially but he was stomped too
Then Zoro was the first to actually hurt oars with the pillar strike
The whole team including Sanji then utilized that to trip him
Zoro was able to singlehandedly block Oars’s attack
He then used the twin tower attack  that ran up Oars, drew blood and made him scream out
He launched a Pound canon that again Oars was forced to dodge.
Sanji then used DJ to individually deflect Oars’s attack
Sanji and Chopper use a combined attack that elicits no reaction from Oars
Sanji gets stomped and knocked out
Zoro launches demonic raven causing Oars to scream and bleed all over his arm
Zoro gets stomped.
Nightmare Luffy comes
Then the team make a plan, Sanji kicks a chain around Oars. Zoro hits him with 3000 worlds drawing a good amount of blood as well as internal bleeding and sets him up for Luffy who breaks him with G3
Sanji couldn’t do a lick of damage to Oars. Zoro was hurting him left and right. And throughout the whole fight Zoro was commanding the team.

I can also say that Luffy never directly outclassed Zoro side by side unless it was due to innate advantages. Their fight was a draw. They did equivalent damage to the wave. Arlong doesn’t count due to injuries as Arlong shat his pants at the thought of an uninjured Zoro. Against Wiper they were both equivalent. Against Enel Luffy had immunity. Against Lucci they both got stomped. Against the Pacifista they all were beaten and battered. Luffy only contributed at the end against Oars (Lets see how the Kaido fight progresses).

Yet we know Luffy is stronger for other reasons. Same with Zoro and Sanji.



> COO has shown to not be like the others and can be maintained passively. Luffy literally had no reason to use yet he sensed Caribou. Katakuri already pointed out that COO relies most on mental state of a person. It isn't like COA and COC which are more will power oriented.



Just because it can be doesn’t mean it always is. That is why they got wrecked by Yeti Cool brothers.



> If by receipts, you mean that Arabasta scan, yeah I am sure I addressed that shit.



Nope.



> Bruh, chill. I don't write the manga. If you have an issue, take it up with Oda. Also WB, heck even Oden, Fujitora, Kizaru and Rayleigh are proof that one doesn't need to dream solely of great strength to achieve it.



Why should I take up an imaginary issue with Oda? As I said, Oda would never usurp Zoro’s dream like that and only in the imaginary universe inside your head where Sanji is King of the Germa would EoS Sanji remain equal to Zoro.

And I never said having a strength-related ultimate dream is the only reason for you to become strong. It definitely is a plus when it comes to becoming strong but not mandatory. Hence Sanji will be a top tier almost as strong as Yonkou/admirals.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 27, 2021)

convict said:


> As the runt of the flying 6 who might face Usopp Sanji should theoretically be able to blitz him regardless of being invisible or not.



And Law should theoretically have been able to do the same. But he didn't, warning that there was a real risk of injury facing an F6. Heck iirc he was even 100% on their chances of winning.




convict said:


> Add in invisibility and P1 has no chance. P1 was also completely unaware about this power initially. If you recall, even without turning invisible he didn’t sense Sanji above him so clearly he was sporadically using CoO.


P1 was equally completely aware of Luffy's power but he easily sensed that Luffy wasn't out of the fight. The burdens' on you to prove that P1 wouldn't use COO while in battle.

As for why he didn't sense sanji, we saw that after sanji turned visible, P1's attack sent him a fair distance away with P1 thinking he was dead. This would imply that he was out of P1's COO range as even after Ulti smashed Luffy, P1 immediately sense Luffy was making a comeback.




convict said:


> Regardless. I already posted that it was just invisibility and nothing more.


I sure you think you did.




convict said:


> Yes. I never stated otherwise. But as soon as he went in to battle mode then there was no further evidence of the him being unable to locate Sanji as Sanji was fully uncovered afterwards. And once again how much you can glean about someone depends on your mastery of observation. Which is why someone with only basic mastery might not deduce another presence in the middle of many.


Again, even if we take into account your exception on King, it is still a fact that neither Hawkins or Drake could find him, and they were actively looking.




convict said:


> Really?
> 
> I posted evidence directly from the horse’s mouth that the raid suit just makes you invisible, it doesn’t make you vanish as QUOTED by Sanji and you think Sanji isn’t smart enough to know what he is talking about? You are? You know better about the raid suit than Sanji? You have to be a scientist to USE the raid suit? Take your L. The raid suit makes you invisible as stated by its user. That is it.


But sanji isn't a scientist now, is he? Nothing I said implied that you have to be a scientist to use the raid suit, but clearly an actual scientist would be more knowledgeable on the suit's capabilities whereas to sanji, he is simply turning invisible.




convict said:


> What I am doing is trying to hammer into your thick skull that Law not only has more hype than Sanji he also has an impressive CoA feat than Sanji. What defensive feat does Sanji have without the raid suit that can compare? Thought so.


I would say stopping Judge's and Daifuku's attacks with his legs certainly compare.




convict said:


> Zoro doesn’t have any negative feats that Sanji has unfortunately. And it is clear as day you are trying your best to weasel your way with excuses. Nami being in Sanji’s body gives him osteoporosis apparently. No evidence that his bones were damaged beforehand. You fail to show evidence of that.
> 
> Once again those who make the positive claim have to prove it. I can’t prove that they weren’t weakened as that is a fundamental tenet of debate. You can’t prove a negative. Just like how atheists can’t prove that God isn’t real. Onus is on theologists for proving it.
> 
> There wasn’t even any allusion to his bones being weakened. No mention of it at all.


So basically, no actual evidence, just rants as per usual. I will take your concession thank you.

Also lol comparing this issue to atheism. It's fucking stupid coz
A) this is a manga i.e. feats are what we go by.
B) even pretime skip, zoro has never shown more impressive durability feats that sanji. At all. What he has shown is better tenacity but I am hoping you are atleast intelligent enough to tell the difference between tenacity and durability.
C) Sanji's training regiment was specifically focused on improving his body's strength. Zoro's was focused on skills and channelling COA into his blades.
D) Sanji is a martial artist I.e. his body does all the work including competing with top class weapon users. Zoro is a swordsman. He style involves most parrying attacks with his weapons.

And last but not least,
E) zoro has no feats in that regard.




convict said:


> Bandages were his fashion sense?
> 
> Come off it man.


Again, except they tortured killer for fun, he was already broken long before the SHs even showed up at Wano. There isn't any reason why they would torture him again after he had long agreed to their terms.




convict said:


> Jet pistol was blocked by Hyouzou genius. The same guy that Rengoku Onigiri oneshotted. Pre skip a G2 jet pistol was stronger than base attacks.
> 
> You should look yourself in the mirror and slap yourself for saying something so amateur.
> 
> ...


So basically let's get this straight shall we.

Zoro one shot the near equivalent of a fishman fodder with it. Someone whom to quote zoro "couldn't even kill his boredom".

Killer got absolutely destroyed by a similar attack.

Yet this post is supposed to make killer look good? 

Sanji's DJ has shown to be on par with G3 luffy and even in base, he can match Daifuku's strongest attacks. Yet you think killer is taking anything more than a few shots of his kicks?

As for not knocking anyone out, he knocked out Luffy, someone who for reference has Katakuri wailing on his for literally hours but still kept standing.

He's also one shot headliners and some of big mom's veterans (Raisin and Bobbins) with casual attacks.






convict said:


> He’s used onigiri twice before Enma. Once oneshotting a fellow supernova and once Hyouzou. Are you under the impression that Zoro is Luffy that he would display such attacks 10 times to readers? This is what I am talking about calling you a feat-monkey. Now we use portrayal to rationalize a little bit. Zoro and Law are close in power and Zoro is a stronger pure swordsman. Zoro is the type to pretty much eliminate peers of his level if he gets one strike in. That is why whenever we see him fight he always does that. Be it Hyouzou, The tentacles. The dragon (who was easily withstanding G2 Haki attacks), Pica, Killer, Hawkins’s card, or Apoo. If Law can easily withstand a rengoku onigiri with just his arms without even using his sword, knowing Zoro is a CoA specialist, then Law with his fruit is tiers above Zoro.


A Rengoku Onigiri is not even among his top attacks. He used it on someone he thought was weak AF for Pete's sake.

Okay, let me put it to you in a way you might understand.

I think we can all agree that Law > Pica in terms of COA

Now Pica boosted that his COA was stronger than his mountain sized rock body which zoro required moves much stronger than Rengoku Onigiri to cut.

It therefore stands to reason that yes, Law can block a Rengoku Onigiri with his armament because it certainly wouldn't have done as much damage to Pica's stone body which Law's COA >>> scaling off Pica.






convict said:


> Zoro against Pica was chasing him throughout Dressrosa and at that point was going all out so that Pica couldn’t escape. It was overkill. Just like Law and Vergo.



See above. You can't say with a straight face that Rengoku Onigiri would have gotten the job done Vs Pica. Heck even his 1080 pound canon while it did damage was nothing compared to the move he pulled to eventually separate Pica's stone body.





convict said:


> No I don’t think Zoro could beat Doffy at that time but I do think Doffy wouldn’t make the mistake of casually blocking his attacks with his arm while sniggering.


Which would mean zoro has more lethal attacks. But again, attacking power isn't everything. Doffy would still dance around him and still catch him with Parasite.




convict said:


> Knowing about them and dealing with them are two different things. Come on. Tornadoes, piercing attacks, range slashes, AoE slahes, Asura etc. Slashing is how he achieves damage but the techniques used to reach that end game are very different.


If he knows about them, it makes it all the more easier to deal with them. It doesn't matter that the technique is different. The end result is relatively speaking, still the same.




convict said:


> Mihawk was testing him. Luffy was also dodging Mihawk’s close combat attacks too. The extended running scene of Jozu was anime only. Of course it isn’t a non-factor. Just because Sanji can get around it doesn’t mean it is something he has to look out for and take measures against (just like invisibility). It is one factor of many.



Yeah, thats a no. Mihawk literally states that he wouldn't hold back against Luffy.

As for Jozu, clearly wasn't in front of WB before Mihawk fired off his attack so clearly he still made to move to intercept, which he did with zero issues.

Again,not seeing anything to help your case regarding the possibility of zoro landing a ranged attack.


convict said:


> Zoro was of course slower than Kaki. Kaku is someone with stats comparable to Zoro but literally trained in a speed technique. Put 1 and 1 together. Read the fight again there were multiple attacks performed by Kaki in which he closed the distance rapidly and Zoro barely reacted to them but he did. Zoro made up for it with his reflexes which is why I keep bringing those up. Zoro doesn’t have close to the movement feats as Kaku. Just because you adapt to a skill doesn’t mean you are more adept at that skill.



The fact that Kaku trained in speed techniques does not even help your case. Neither Luffy nor sanji actually trained in speed techniques but could easily keep up. Zoro isn't slower, his fighting style simply lacks mobility, hence Kaku would naturally be doing most of the movement while zoro would be countering.

The lack of mobility was highlighted against Pica where he needed an assist getting within range.



convict said:


> Of course I am bringing up the hardness of the rocks in a debate about whether Zoro can cut the rock. Jesus.
> 
> Also, despite pretending to know something you haven’t even given any sort of explanation about your position for me to debunk. So all you are doing is blowing hot air.


The debate is about whether zoro can cut a METEOR. You still for some reason think it is the equivalent of cutting rocks despite my repeatedly pointing out that this is a subject that concerns PHYSICS.

A smart person would have gotten the hint and locked at the PHYSICS behind Meteors.

I am not in the mode to wipe your ass for you, so I will give you a hint;

what happens to objects as they go faster





convict said:


> You aren’t getting it. Dodging the bean and locating the sniper are observation Haki feats. We already know Sanji has good observation. That is different from being a quick decision maker. Someone who is aware of not just people but the overall environment and can react. Zoro was on the cusp of oblivion. All of them were aware they were being poisoned but Zoro held out longest analyzed how to create a safe landing for everyone a despite being almost knocked out and barely was able to do so. But in doing so he saved everyone.


Again, observation haki is key to situational awareness. That is literally it's core function. Second, slicing an obvious threat is in no universe other than the fantastical farts your brain seems to generate, more impressive than detecting and countering unknown threats.





convict said:


> You need to read that scene again with correct translation. The cool brothers linked tolerating the gas to the ability to tolerate drinks. And we know Nami is numero uno in that. Sanji in Nami’s body even got up before Zoro and woke him up. Sanji/Zoro lost consciousness moments apart but Zoro kept pushing further to make sure everyone was safe before passing out.


Don't recall Nami being able to outdrink the guy who literally does nothing but drink all day. Further, the attack sent them flying, meaning it had some concussive force, meaning it would almost certainly have knocked out Nami even from the sheer force alone.




convict said:


> Oh so they made Mr 1 talk?
> 
> Playing with hypotheticals then to prove your nonsense? If I was as stupid as you I could claim they made Doffy talk about all the events of Dressrosa post-defeat. Lets be real Doffy is way more talkative than Mr. 1. They probably wouldn’t need to ask.


Yeah, that's stupid. Fujitora and a ton of marines were there and clearly saw what lead up to Doffy and Pica's defeats. Not to mention, doffy is more talkative than Mr. 1 but he talks more about completely different things.




convict said:


> Morgans is pretty much that. He is portrayed to having eyes and ears everywere. Nami, Chopper, and Brook also had bounty bumps despite minimal presence in Dressrosa.


Morgans is a man with sources but he clearly doesn't have them every where. Except his sources could fly with doffy and Fujitora to green bit, there was no way they would know what went on with sanji. And that's assuming he had sources within dressrosa at the time.

Oda has already explained that generally, all crew members get a bump in their bounties when their captain gets a bump.




convict said:


> As I said in Dressrosa the difference is irrelevant as Zoro sandbagged Pica who was pretty much just running away from him. Lucci was obviously stronger than them and would beat them handily. But he wasn’t multiple tiers stronger. Mr. 1 blocked Mihawk’s attack before going down. Crocodile is obviously stronger, but give Mr 1 some water and he would get some good hits in before going down. He would be able to defend multiple attacks from arabasta croc as he was far more durable than Luffy at the time but would get dehydrated in the end.



So let's say it isn't multiple tiers. Let's say it just a single tier. We know for a fact that there exists a massive gap in just a single tier. So at the end, it really makes no difference given the massive gap

Also Mr. 1 was more durable than Luffy regarding SLICING AND PIERCING ATTACKS. Not that it matters as Luffy would have smashed him to bits.



convict said:


> This is just the beginning of that fight. Lets wait and see how Zoro will impress him.


Yeah, let's do that.


convict said:


> And they never said “this guy is the strongest and only Luffy can deal with him” either. They have commented that Luffy takes it upon itself to go for the strongest and they were worried about him. As I said, internally no one is ever going to say Luffy is stronger than Zoro or Zoro is stronger than Sanji. That is just not how the crew characterizes things.


The main point is that Luffy is the one they put their faith in to take down the strongest. Zoro and Sanji get their faith to take down the STRONG FIGHTERS.




convict said:


> They have never fought each other and rarely fought side by side. Against the Pacista when they fought together Zoro was injured yet still he was given the honors of the second last strike before Luffy.


Ehhh...they fought each other as zombies and were dead even. Zoro was too weak to move about and asked sanji to smash the Pacifista towards him. He was given the chance because he asked for it.


convict said:


> Against Oars Zoro was overall head and shoulders more impressive:
> 
> Sanji was closest and attacked first and the attack didn’t even register and he was stomped
> Zoro used his gorilla strike and actually made Oars dodge it partially but he was stomped too
> ...




Oz exhibited traits similar to Luffy's rubber man body meaning he would be far more resistant to blunt force attacks than piercing attacks hence it makes sense that zoro hurt him. However the most impressive feat in the fight would be sanji matching and deflecting the bazooka which was Oz's strongest attack.


convict said:


> I can also say that Luffy never directly outclassed Zoro side by side unless it was due to innate advantages. Their fight was a draw. They did equivalent damage to the wave. Arlong doesn’t count due to injuries as Arlong shat his pants at the thought of an uninjured Zoro.


They did equivalent damage against the wave but this was base Luffy. Their "fight" was a draw but by Arabasta, it was clear that zoro wasn't even close.

Arlong shat his pants at the fact that zoro was standing in spite of his injury. He never implied that zoro at the time could have beaten him uninjured. Rather that zoro would be a real threat in future if he didn't kill him them hence his saying he could not let a man like zoro live.




convict said:


> Luffy only contributed at the end against Oars


Which was by far the largest contribution. He also was the one who beat Asgard Moria.


convict said:


> Just because it can be doesn’t mean it always is. That is why they got wrecked by Yeti Cool brothers.



But one would think in would be on while in battle or actively looking for a strong fighter.



convict said:


> Nope


Yep


convict said:


> Why should I take up an imaginary issue with Oda? As I said, Oda would never usurp Zoro’s dream like that and only in the imaginary universe inside your head where Sanji is King of the Germa would EoS Sanji remain equal to Zoro.



How would sanji being zoro's equal usurp his dream?
Is sanji in that deluded head space of yours, also a swordsman?

And lols, I just made a theory on how where EOS sanji will end up the same way you made a theory about Admiral lvl Coby by the final war. Don't know why you are so mad coz I don't believe your "imaginary universe" the same way you apparently don't believe mine.





convict said:


> And I never said having a strength-related ultimate dream is the only reason for you to become strong. It definitely is a plus when it comes to becoming strong but not mandatory. Hence *Sanji will be a top tier almost as strong as Yonkou/admirals.*



The fact that it isn't mandatory is the end of your argument tbh.

Also forgive me if I don't buy into your imaginary universe @bolded.


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## Admiral Akanezumi (Jan 29, 2021)

Killer (rooftop version) and Sanji (onigashima version) duke it out on the rooftop. Both go for the kill but have no prior knowledge of the opponent.

Who wins?


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## Chronophage (Jan 29, 2021)

Killer mid diffs.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2021)

Killer high-diff vs RS

low-mid diff vs base Sanji


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## Delta Shell (Jan 29, 2021)




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## A Optimistic (Jan 29, 2021)

People were crying a week ago when I was saying Sanji is no match for Killer (or any of the [Blocked Domain]). As usual, the manga always supports me.

Killer would destroy Raid Suit Sanji.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 29, 2021)

He's shown the ability to bypass the suit's durability, and base sanji has durability on Vergo-breaks-his-leg tier, so yeah, Killer wins

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 9


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## Lurko (Jan 29, 2021)

Killer.


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## Kinjin (Jan 29, 2021)

Might merge this thread with the Battledome one on Sunday.

After this chapter Killer wins with high difficulty at worst against RS Sanji going by feats. Sanji might close the gap by the end of the arc.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

Depends on whether or not killer can land that attack. Don't see that happening.


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 29, 2021)

Yeah let's not forget Sanjibros go-to argument of "Killer can't touch Sanji he's too fast"

Reactions: Funny 2


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## JustSumGuy (Jan 29, 2021)

Killer definitely looks better as of right now no denying that.


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## Delta Shell (Jan 29, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Yeah let's not forget Sanjibros go-to argument of "Killer can't touch Sanji he's too fast"


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## Corax (Jan 29, 2021)

Depends on how Killer is going to fight Sanji's CoO and invisibility. He is strong enough to one shot or seriously damage him,true. But he has to land an attack first. Probably Killer extreme diff if he uses a bait tactics (like Kenpachi did in Bleach) and after many failed attempts grabs careless Sanji and finishes him with his new Sonic Scythe attack.


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## A Optimistic (Jan 29, 2021)

Not even sure how anyone reading this manga can compare these two characters.

Raid Suit Sanji was struggling against Page One. Raid Suit Sanji was sent flying by a un-named attack from King. Meanwhile Killer is slicing a Yonko with giant magical blades.

Raid Suit Sanji can give Killer low difficulty at the very most.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 2


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## ice demon slayer (Jan 29, 2021)

Killer definitely atm


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## Corax (Jan 29, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> Not even sure how anyone reading this manga can compare these two characters.
> 
> Raid Suit Sanji was struggling against Page One. Raid Suit Sanji was sent flying by a un-named attack from King. Meanwhile Killer is slicing a Yonko with giant magical blades.
> 
> Raid Suit Sanji can give Killer low difficulty at the very most.


In a fair one on one battle Killer obviously trashes him low diff. But Sajni might use guerilla and sucker punch tactics here.


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## Mylesime (Jan 29, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Depends on whether or not killer can land that attack. Don't see that happening.



There is no way Killer would fail to land hits on Sanji in a simulation.
That would not be enough though, Sanji high diff.
Killer had a free hit after climbing on the back of his target.
How would Killer technique work against the suit shield force?
Hard to say.
Anyway not much changed, Killer can hurt Sanji obviously. Sanji should land more hits, who would go down first?
Durability doesn't seem to be his strong suit.

Sanji is currently fucking around with bitches on the 3rd floor while Killer is having the fight of his life.
Based on current feats it obviously favors one character, but we all know this arc is far from over.....
Once this arc is done  the answer will be clear, no sweating , no point debating.


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## Draco Bolton (Jan 29, 2021)

Killer can bypass  "muh adamantium skin" with his sonic slash technique.

meanwhile Sanji.....



 

Killer did the most damage to Kaido to the point BM had to interfere

I Apologize... I thought he was vet level but now I see him above mere YC3

I'm sorry his captain is such a joke  

Killer high-extrem diff RS Sanji (now it's Sanji who need to show more, only his invisibility can really help him), I can see him bypass raid suit armor. He have the speed, and if he stand up in next chapters, then Killer will really have everything to resist Sanji's attacks and win more easily.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

Draco Bolton said:


> and if he stand up in next chapters,


Wtf...Reiju took zero damage from big mom's elemental attacks. Her actual physical strikes pack far more of a punch and sanji contributed to matching it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Flame (Jan 29, 2021)

Yeah for now I'd favor Killer. I have no doubts Sanji could close the gap (if there is) in no time but until then it's Killer thanks to recent feat.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bobybobster (Jan 29, 2021)

killer is above sanji at this point, literally too.


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## T.D.A (Jan 29, 2021)

Need to see what Raid Suit does for Sanji *offensively* and whether it can match Killer's but for now I'd give the edge to Killer.


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## Mylesime (Jan 29, 2021)

Based on feats Killer is stronger than Kid.
And we all know that's BS.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Patrick (Jan 29, 2021)

They should be around the same level but we've already seen most of what Killer is capable of at full strength, while we've only had glimpses of Sanji's full strength with his raid suit. So with the feats and portrayal they both have right now Killer wins but I'm not sure that will still be the case at the end of Wano.


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## Beast (Jan 29, 2021)

Same thing I said last time... Killer extreme or high high diff RS Sanji. 
zoro~Killer>~ Sanji


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## Mercurial (Jan 29, 2021)

Killer is clearly portrayed as on a higher level.

Being one of the Top Five WG Supernovas that are fighting decently against two Yonkos is obviously >>> not being recognized as relevant enough to even be a WG Supernova. 

But due to Sanji's RS, maybe Sanji could give a high diff fight to Killer. Of course, nothing more than that, and It Killer goes serious from the start, he murders.
Sorry but based on portrayal and feats, that's it.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Optimistic 1


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## A Optimistic (Jan 29, 2021)

T.D.A said:


> Need to see what Raid Suit does for Sanji *offensively* and whether it can match Killer's but for now I'd give the edge to Killer.



We saw Raid suit kicking Page One though.


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## Mylesime (Jan 29, 2021)

Knowing that the fights are currently taking place and that we have inconclusive elements until they all go all out.
It's a matter of beliefs and interpretations, so rather than pointlessly debate.
Let's test our resolves, let's bet.
There is always the possibility of Oda being ambiguous, preventing us from having a clear conclusion.

But i think that will be clear, once Vinsmoke's son awakens and Sanji pulls out his CoC.
If the performances are telling.
If Killer is stronger than Sanji at the end of this arc, i join the Zoro church, wear his colors, change my user name etc.
But if Sanji undoubtedly displays his superiority, the loud legion of Sanji haters have to bend the Knee and wear the Prince, the priest of love colors.

It's too easy to shit talk, let's have a minor incentive.
ck

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 29, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Knowing that the fights are currently taking place and that we have inconclusive elements until they all go all out.
> It's a matter of beliefs and interpretations, so rather than pointlessly debate.
> Let's test our resolves, let's bet.
> There is always the possibility of Oda being ambiguous, preventing us from having a clear conclusion.
> ...


He'll always be below Zoro though, so might as well just join the church now

Reactions: Agree 2


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## T.D.A (Jan 29, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> We saw Raid suit kicking Page One though.



I'm sure he can use stronger attacks than the one vs P1.


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## Mylesime (Jan 29, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> He'll always be below Zoro though, so might as well just join the church now



Zoro will always be below Luffy.
It doesn't bother you.
Same shit here pal
ck


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jan 29, 2021)

I'm giving it to Sanji. We'll see if I'm proven wrong when Sanji goes all out.


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## Venom (Jan 29, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Depends on whether or not killer can land that attack. Don't see that happening.


Killer is undoubtedly agile as fuck. Why wouldn't he be able to land his hits?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 29, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> People were crying a week ago when I was saying Sanji is no match for Killer (or any of the [Blocked Domain]). As usual, the manga always supports me.
> 
> Killer would destroy Raid Suit Sanji.


Last week there were no feats to support your statement really. This week you could make a more solid argument until we see more feats from Sanji who hasn't gotten close to going all out.

You're not really "enligtened and proven right" just because the guy you were cheering for has gotten feats from going all out against a yonko vs the guy who we just saw have a short skirmish against King

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kamina. (Jan 29, 2021)

Come on guys can we just wank the SN on the roof this week? There's no need for this atm people are just going to get angry when a great chapter is out.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Beast (Jan 29, 2021)

Kamina. said:


> Come on guys can we just wank the SN on the roof this week? There's no need for this atm people are just going to get angry when a great chapter is out.


The wank has to be fair 
Luffy and Kidd at the top!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

Venom said:


> Killer is undoubtedly agile as fuck. Why wouldn't he be able to land his hits?


I agree killer is agile and quick. Sanji isn't a giant target like Kaido, is equally as fast and agile, invisible and can fly.

I guess the question rather isn't whether killer can land hits but rather if he can land a decisive hit before he goes down.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Beast (Jan 29, 2021)

Kidd should be using his powers to power up Killers attacks ngl.


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## savior2005 (Jan 29, 2021)

Killer Low Diff.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Isazi (Jan 29, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> People were crying a week ago when I was saying Sanji is no match for Killer (or any of the [Blocked Domain]). As usual, the manga always supports me.
> 
> Killer would destroy Raid Suit Sanji.


As far as baseless statements go this is pretty powerful.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## convict (Jan 29, 2021)

Killer high for now


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## Great Potato (Jan 29, 2021)

When Sanji's saving grace was being able to turn himself invisible, but then the rooftop Supernova showed they can easily handle Kaido's invisible flying slashes.

Reactions: Funny 7 | Winner 1 | Creative 2


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> When Sanji's saving grace was being able to turn himself invisible, but then the rooftop Supernova showed they can easily handle Kaido's invisible flying slashes.


Since when were wind slashes invisible in one piece?


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## Mercurial (Jan 29, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> I agree killer is agile and quick. Sanji isn't a giant target like Kaido, is equally as fast and agile, invisible and can fly.
> 
> I guess the question rather isn't whether killer can land hits but rather if he can land a decisive hit before he goes down.


A decisive hit??

The move he used on Kaido in the last chapter, would kill Sanji 15 times!
How can you be that biased?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Since when were wind slashes invisible in one piece?


Denjiro said Kaidos were


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Denjiro said Kaidos were


Yet we can literally see them. Clearly a mistranslation.


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## Strobacaxi (Jan 29, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Since when were wind slashes invisible in one piece?




EDIT: This is the official translation AFAIK


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## B Rabbit (Jan 29, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Yet we can literally see them. Clearly a mistranslation.


I mean us the reader can. For visual rep of what is going on. Maybe not for the people in the story.

Anyways. Killer high diffs.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Magentabeard (Jan 29, 2021)

High diffs maybe very high diffs RS sanji if he has more to show
Mid diffs regular Sanji


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> EDIT: This is the official translation AFAIK



I have seen other translations calling it wind sycthes i.e. Kamui Itachi which makes far more sense.



B Rabbit said:


> I mean us the reader can. For visual rep of what is going on. Maybe not for the people in the story.


If that were the case, then we the readers should equally be able to spot sanji everytime he went invisible.


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## B Rabbit (Jan 29, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> I have seen other translations calling it wind sycthes i.e. Kamui Itachi which makes far more sense.
> 
> 
> If that were the case, then we the readers should equally be able to spot sanji everytime he went invisible.


I mean could be inconsistent writing. But Iirc it was directly translation as invisible and we go we official unless strongly evidence against.


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## ho11ow (Jan 29, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> EDIT: This is the official translation AFAIK


The translation is make sense when we can see Denjiro get shocked after realized the rock on left get cut

Reactions: Winner 3


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## A Optimistic (Jan 29, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Last week there were no feats to support your statement really. This week you could make a more solid argument until we see more feats from Sanji who hasn't gotten close to going all out.
> 
> You're not really "enligtened and proven right" just because the guy you were cheering for has gotten feats from going all out against a yonko vs the guy who we just saw have a short skirmish against King



Sani had a long list of awful feats before this chapter. Did you not see his performance agansit Page One, Drake,  Daifuku? All those poor feats existed before this chapter. To say there were no feats to support my argument makes you a confirmed liar and shows me that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

I can tell you’re another biased and ignorant Sanji fanboy because you phrase it as “a short skirmish” against King when in reality it was Sanji admitting he would be dead without his suit, and you ignoring Sanji’s fights against much weaker opponents.

Reactions: Winner 3 | Disagree 1


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## Venom (Jan 29, 2021)

The dilemma of Sanji fans right now.
Is Killer stronger than Zoro, who is also stronger than Sanji, or is Sanji stronger than Killer?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3 | Winner 1


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## A Optimistic (Jan 29, 2021)

Isazi said:


> As far as baseless statements go this is pretty powerful.



How is it baseless? We’ve seen Raid Suit Sanji versus Page One and King. And we saw Base Sanji versus Drake and Daifuku. We have a very good idea where Sanji stands.

Do you even know what the word baseless means?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Draffut (Jan 29, 2021)

Killer 2v1 Sanji+Zoro

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

B Rabbit said:


> I mean could be inconsistent writing. But Iirc it was directly translation as invisible and we go we official unless strongly evidence against.


Seems inconsistent. Also official translation aren't always accurate from my experience. I will check to see what the raws say, but Kamuitachi makes more sense imho.




ho11ow said:


> The translation is make sense when we can see Denjiro get shocked after realized the rock on left get cut


Something to consider. 


A Optimistic said:


> How is it baseless? We’ve seen Raid Suit Sanji versus Page One and King. And we saw Base Sanji versus Drake and Daifuku





A Optimistic said:


> We have a very good idea where Sanji stands.



And pray do tell, how many of those fights approached anything close to "conclusive"?

Where do your "good ideas" come from given the lack of any .... Conclusion?


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 29, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> Sani had a long list of awful feats before this chapter. Did you not see his performance agansit Page One, Drake,  Daifuku? All those poor feats existed before this chapter. To say there were no feats to support my argument makes you a confirmed liar.


What poor feats against Page One? The Daifuku thing can be excused because he was preoccupied with something else, you knowing keeping tabs on his family. This can be reaffirmed when you see Sanji blitzing Oven and blocking Daifuku's genie later on in the arc.


A Optimistic said:


> I can tell you’re another biased and ignorant Sanji fanboy because you phrase it as “a short skirmish” against King when in reality it was Sanji admitting he would be dead without his suit,


Irrelevant? Raid suit is part of his arsenal.


A Optimistic said:


> and you ignoring Sanji’s fights against much weaker opponents.


Much weaker relative to whom?


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## B Rabbit (Jan 29, 2021)

Sanji in the raid suit couldn't take down Page One permanently.

Killer is getting back up from Mom's Indra. 

Levels to this shit.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## A Optimistic (Jan 29, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Seems inconsistent. Also official translation aren't always accurate from my experience. I will check to see what the raws say, but Kamuitachi makes more sense imho.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So fights have to have a conclusive conclusion otherwise you can’t discuss what happened? Since when? Oda has shown plenty of inconclusive fights and that hasn’t stopped or prevented discussion before. When did Sanji become immune to this?

Reactions: Winner 3


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## B Rabbit (Jan 29, 2021)

Sanji cracks his leg against Vergo. Law one shots Vergo.

Sorry it's inconclusive Sanji = Law

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 6


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

B Rabbit said:


> Sanji in the raid suit couldn't take down Page One permanently.


The fuck are they even comparable. P1's next appearance after his bout with sanji happened well over a week after. Iirc he was no longer shown alongside drake, with Drake looking for Sanji alongside Hawkins.

Except P1 suddenly decided to take a break from hunting the guy who hurt him, it makes sense that he was out for a bit.

Did I also mention that Ancient zoans are known for high level recovery ability. Ulti took a thunder bagua from Yamato and was up and running literally minutes later like nothing happened.




B Rabbit said:


> Killer is getting back up from Mom's Indra




Remains to be seen. Though then again Reiju was barely faced by her elemental attacks so I don't think it speak well for killer that he was completely out cold from one hit.


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## Beast (Jan 29, 2021)

The fight isn’t as bad as the feats.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> So fights have to have a conclusive conclusion otherwise you can’t discuss what happened? Since when? Oda has shown plenty of inconclusive fights and that hasn’t stopped or prevented discussion before. When did Sanji become immune to this?



No, fights don't have to be conclusive but you can't infer how things would have gone from brief skirmish were NEITHER PARTY GAINED ANY REAL ADVANTAGE.

The King skirmish being the sole exception for reasons that are unlikely to repeat themselves in an actual fight.



B Rabbit said:


> Sanji cracks his leg against Vergo. Law one shots Vergo.
> 
> Sorry it's inconclusive Sanji = Law


See above.


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## B Rabbit (Jan 29, 2021)

Seems like to many copouts for Sanji than any real evidence that he can put out Killer.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## A Optimistic (Jan 29, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> What poor feats against Page One?



Sanji was slammed through multiple buildings, failed to deal any real damage to Page One, and failed to defeat Page One like he promised.

And why are you ignoring Sanji’s fights agansit Drake and Daifuku? You’re just gonna pretend I didn’t bring those characters up? 



Vivo Diez said:


> Irrelevant? Raid suit is part of his arsenal.



It’s only irrelevant as long as you admit Base Sanji stands no chance against Killer. If you agree with that, we can only discuss Killer vs Raid Suit Sanji. But if you think Base Sanji can give a fight to Killer, then yes King being able to kill Base Sanji with an un-named attack is very relevant.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 29, 2021)

B Rabbit said:


> Sanji cracks his leg against Vergo. Law one shots Vergo.
> 
> Sorry it's inconclusive Sanji = Law


As a Law fan you should be aware that Law did not one-shot Vergo

Reactions: Funny 2


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## B Rabbit (Jan 29, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> As a Law fan you should be aware that Law did not one-shot Vergo


Once Law got his heart back didn't he? Or you trying to say a nerfed Law where Vergo had his heart pumping was Law at 100%?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## A Optimistic (Jan 29, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> No, fights don't have to be conclusive but you can't infer how things would have gone from brief skirmish were NEITHER PARTY GAINED ANY REAL ADVANTAGE.



What do you mean no real advantage?  Sanji kicking Drake, Drake feeling no pain, and then Drake swatting Sanji into a building with his tail isn’t an advantage for Drake? Page One smashing Sanji through 5 buildings isn’f an advantage for Page One? Daifuku physically overpowering Sanji isn’t an advantage for Daifuku? Vergo cracking Sanji’s leg isn’t an advantage for Vergo?


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> Sanji was slammed through multiple buildings, failed to deal any real damage to Page One, and failed to defeat Page One like he promised.


We don't know that he failed to defeat Pageone.

The fight happened weeks before the current events. Ancient zoans recover extremely quickly as has been highlighted repeatedly in this arc alone.


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## A Optimistic (Jan 29, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> As a Law fan you should be aware that Law did not one-shot Vergo



Law literally did one shot Vergo. 

Vergo is powerless against a Law that actually possesses his own heart.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Cursemark (Jan 29, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Wtf...Reiju took zero damage from big mom's elemental attacks. Her actual physical strikes pack far more of a punch and sanji contributed to matching it.


The raid suit's have fire resistance so that's the only reason she took it. Judge was one-shotted.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> What do you mean no real advantage? Sanji kicking Drake, Drake feeling no pain


An unnamed kick with zero momentum behind it.  


A Optimistic said:


> Drake swatting Sanji into a building with his tail isn’t an advantage


Exactly what advantage did that offer Drake? Sanji was completely fine and hadn't even begun to go all out whereas Drake was already in fight mode.


A Optimistic said:


> Page One smashing Sanji through 5 buildings isn’f an advantage for Page One?



Given that again sanji suffered zero damage, no it isn't.
Like the next panel had him smashing Pageone from above.



A Optimistic said:


> Daifuku physically overpowering Sanji isn’t an advantage for Daifuku?




In the wedding when sanji was on the defensive, he got overpowered.

When it was a clash of attacks i.e. sanji actually countering with his own attack instead of just blocking, they were even. Heck the genie was the biggest daifuku ever summoned and sanji's attack matched it.




A Optimistic said:


> Vergo cracking Sanji’s leg isn’t an advantage for Vergo?




Yes, though this wasn't in your original post which I responded to.


Also clearly sanji is not only much stronger than in Punk hazard but it was stated that his body was already damaged prior by Nami using it.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 29, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> Sanji was slammed through multiple buildings, failed to deal any real damage to Page One, and failed to defeat Page One like he promised.


1. Page One got slammed to the ground by Sanji without his raid suit on.
2. Then he got slammed again by Sanji with the raid suit on as he was testing it's powers
3. Then P1 literally tags him once, and we see Sanji getting up with barely a scratch on him as he marvels at how durable the suit is
4. Sanji proceeds to slam P1 again
--action moves away to something else--

Am I missing something? Does this seem unfavorable to Sanji? Do we know if he did put P1 down or not? No.


A Optimistic said:


> And why are you ignoring Sanji’s fights agansit Drake and Daifuku? You’re just gonna pretend I didn’t bring those characters up?


I edit the orig post before you posted on Daifuku. Drake tagged base Sanji once with his tail and did no damage.


A Optimistic said:


> It’s only irrelevant as long as you admit Base Sanji stands no chance against Killer. If you agree with that, we can only discuss Killer vs Raid Suit Sanji. But if you think Base Sanji can give a fight to Killer, then yes King being able to kill Base Sanji with an un-named attack is very relevant.


? You said that Killer would beat Raid Suit Sanji, that is what we're comparing.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

Cursemark said:


> The raid suit's have fire resistance so that's the only reason she took it. Judge was one-shotted.


Judge was one shot by a literal punch aimed at his skull which just happened to have been charged up by lightning.

Same punch which sanji and G3 Luffy matched btw.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 29, 2021)

B Rabbit said:


> Once Law got his heart back didn't he? Or you trying to say a nerfed Law where Vergo had his heart pumping was Law at 100%?


How did Vergo having his heart nerf his counter shock?


A Optimistic said:


> Law literally did one shot Vergo.
> 
> Vergo is powerless against a Law that actually possesses his own heart.


He did not *literally *one shot Vergo.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Draffut (Jan 29, 2021)

B Rabbit said:


> Sanji in the raid suit couldn't take down Page One permanently.



Luffy didn't permanently take down Holdem either.

The idea that Oda didn't off screen a Tobiroppo permanently that early into the arc therefor it means something is nonsense.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 2


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> Luffy didn't permanently take down Holdem either.
> 
> The idea that Oda didn't off screen a Tobiroppo permanently that early into the arc therefor it means something is nonsense.


Not to mention how it has been stated over and over that ancient zoans recover very quickly.


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## Typhon (Jan 29, 2021)

I ask again what did Killer really do before these last two chapters? Maybe wait for Sanji to actually go all out before claiming he can't even beat Killer

Reactions: Winner 2


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## B Rabbit (Jan 29, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> How did Vergo having his heart nerf his counter shock?
> 
> He did not *literally *one shot Vergo.


The fact Vergo powered up his whole body to full body armament that boost his attack and defense and got one shotted. Why quote a panel I directly told you happened.


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## Kishido (Jan 29, 2021)

Killer right now has the edge

Reactions: Winner 1


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## convict (Jan 29, 2021)

I didn't incorporate the latest chapter in to this discussion yet due to spoilers, but will do so next post.


*Spoiler*: __ 






> And Law should theoretically have been able to do the same. But he didn't, warning that there was a real risk of injury facing an F6. Heck iirc he was even 100% on their chances of winning.



Drake was also in the vicinity. Law never faced Page 1 before and lets be real here. Law going all out against Page 1 would be a massacre. Come on.



> P1 was equally completely aware of Luffy's power but he easily sensed that Luffy wasn't out of the fight. *The burdens' on you to prove that P1 wouldn't use COO while in battle.*
> 
> As for why he didn't sense sanji, we saw that after sanji turned visible, P1's attack sent him a fair distance away with P1 thinking he was dead. This would imply that he was out of P1's COO range as even after Ulti smashed Luffy, P1 immediately sense Luffy was making a comeba



Page 1 couldn’t sense Sanji on top of him? You think Page 1’s range is only 50m when Usopp first learned it his range went on for a huge distance in Dressrosa and Zoro Sanji in FI also had long range? Law and Franky were right next to Sanji and Page 1 didn't make any comment of their potential strength. He never even noticed Sanji coming towards him when he was trashing the city. Face it. He isn't very consistent in utilizing observation.



> Again, even if we take into account your exception on King, it is still a fact that neither Hawkins or Drake could find him, and they were actively looking.



Come on I already talked about this. Sanji’s presence was hidden amongst many.



> But sanji isn't a scientist now, is he? Nothing I said implied that you have to be a scientist to use the raid suit, but clearly an actual scientist would be more knowledgeable on the suit's capabilities whereas to sanji, he is simply turning invisible.



So we are still going with YOU know more about the raid suit than Sanji then.



> I would say stopping Judge's and Daifuku's attacks with his legs certainly compare.



Delusional. I guess Vergo’s base leg kick are also far stronger than Doffy’s 5 colored string too.



> So basically, no actual evidence, just rants as per usual. I will take your concession thank you.



Sure think it more and might become true.


> Also lol comparing this issue to atheism. It's fucking stupid coz



You know, consistently I have noticed you have no capability to think remotely logically about analogies. No


> A) this is a manga i.e. feats are what we go by.
> B) even pretime skip, zoro has never shown more impressive durability feats that sanji. At all. What he has shown is better tenacity but I am hoping you are atleast intelligent enough to tell the difference between tenacity and durability.
> C) Sanji's training regiment was specifically focused on improving his body's strength. Zoro's was focused on skills and channelling COA into his blades.
> D) Sanji is a martial artist I.e. his body does all the work including competing with top class weapon users. Zoro is a swordsman. He style involves most parrying attacks with his weapons.



Feats and portrayal are both what we go by.

Pre-timeskip none of them had Haki which is the biggest distinguishing factor of durability. Otherwise Garp wouldn’t get bloodied by Luffy, Shanks wouldn’t get his arm chewed off etc. Unless you have a freak body there wouldn’t be a huge difference in durability between people of similar level. Luffy and Zoro had similar durability that is why they were equally bloodied from Bellamy’s attacks.That is where Haki comes in to play.

And Zoro trains his body far more than anyone. That isn’t even up for debate. In their free time I don’t think I have ever seen Sanji being shown to train. Sanji focuses on his legs in his fighting style and Zoro his upper body. Either way he trains the most. Baseless to claim Sanji’s focus was on improving his body’s strength and not Zoro. Especially by someone who gets sent flying by Page 1 while blocking WITH his legs. They all trained in Haki, their bodies, and their tecnhniques. A lot of Sanji’s training was focused on flight speed/mobility.


> And last but not least,
> E) zoro has no feats in that regard.



Once again, at least he doesn’t have negative feats like vs Zoro and getting taken out by a couple minor electricity attacks



That one was actually embarrassing. Imaging if Killer and Zoro are near that poor in durability considering they are facing the lightning of an emperor.



> Again, except they tortured killer for fun, he was already broken long before the SHs even showed up at Wano. There isn't any reason why they would torture him again after he had long agreed to their terms.



Because they are evil fuckers that is why. Jesus, bandages are not his fashion sense. Again. This doesn’t need to be repeated.



> So basically let's get this straight shall we.
> 
> Zoro one shot the near equivalent of a fishman fodder with it. Someone whom to quote zoro "couldn't even kill his boredom".
> 
> ...



Read the context of my post again man…

You claimed like a pure ignoramus that Luffy’s base bazooka should still be equivalent to Rengoku Onigiri when that is clearly not the case. He used G2 on Hyouzu which was easily blocked and that is stronger than his base attacks. That is why I used Hyouzou as an example. Zoro’s current Rengoku onigiri is completely different from Luffy’s base bazooka now. Luffy had to focus on a lot of other things like G4 while Zoro worked on strengthening existing techniques in the TS.

And Sanji knocked out Luffy? That is your claim to fame?  

Luffy was on his last legs.

Geez really scraping the bottom of the barrel for offensive Sanji feats

I hope you are trolling again with that example
Also congratulations on Sanji knocking out headliners 





> A Rengoku Onigiri is not even among his top attacks. He used it on someone he thought was weak AF for Pete's sake.
> 
> Okay, let me put it to you in a way you might understand.
> 
> ...



He also used it on FRIKKIN KAIDO. It is a mid tier attack of his. Or course not one of his strongest.

Zoro “Required” to use 3000 worlds on Pica’s body the same way Luffy “required” to use King Kong Gun on a half dead Doffy.

Just hilarious that you think Law can block such attacks with purely his CoA. In a swordsmanship duel with Zoro he doesn’t even need to use his sword to block unless Zoro goes 3000 worlds or above 



> See above. You can't say with a straight face that Rengoku Onigiri would have gotten the job done Vs Pica. Heck even his 1080 pound canon while it did damage was nothing compared to the move he pulled to eventually separate Pica's stone body.



100% I can.


It wouldn’t get the job done against the Gollum because it lacks AoE but it would get the job done against the Hakified Pica that was without any rock to hide in.



> Which would mean zoro has more lethal attacks. But again, attacking power isn't everything. Doffy would still dance around him and still catch him with Parasite.



I already said Dressrosa Doffy beats Zoro.




> If he knows about them, it makes it all the more easier to deal with them.




But again, he will get caught eventually even with knowledge. Ludacris to suggest Zoro wouldn’t be able to tag Sanji once. He doesn’t have the feats of dodging someone on Zoro’s level for extended periods, nor the hype to do so.



> Yeah, thats a no. Mihawk literally states that he wouldn't hold back against Luffy.
> 
> As for Jozu, clearly wasn't in front of WB before Mihawk fired off his attack so clearly he still made to move to intercept, which he did with zero issues.
> 
> Again,not seeing anything to help your case regarding the possibility of zoro landing a ranged attack.




Thinking God Damn Mihawk was going all out against pre-skip Luffy and couldn’t tag him...

Mihawk was testing Luffy and wouldn’t hesitate to cut him if he failed.

Current Zoro or Sanji would instantly blitz and oneshot pre-skip Luffy if they went all out yet Mihawk can't?

All we know is most of the commanders got out right in front of the ship right before Mihawk attacked.

At the very least those ranged attacks thoroughly distracted Luffy and helped Mihawk close the distance. Which is all Zoro needs



> The fact that Kaku trained in speed techniques does not even help your case. Neither Luffy nor sanji actually trained in speed techniques but could easily keep up. Zoro isn't slower, his fighting style simply lacks mobility, hence Kaku would naturally be doing most of the movement while zoro would be countering.
> 
> The lack of mobility was highlighted against Pica where he needed an assist getting within range.



The fact that Kaku trained in speed techniques does not help my case in arguing for his speed? 

G2 Luffy isn’t a speed technique and didn’t make him MUCH faster? 



Sanji was faster than Zoro which is why it was easier to keep up with Jyabura. He also doesn’t have poor reaction time by any means.




> The debate is about whether zoro can cut a METEOR. You still for some reason think it is the equivalent of cutting rocks despite my repeatedly pointing out that this is a subject that concerns PHYSICS.
> 
> A smart person would have gotten the hint and locked at the PHYSICS behind Meteors.
> 
> ...



You keep repeatedly harping about PHYSICS but have not remotely attempted to go in depth about this with me for the past 3-4 posts now and continue to evade.

I guess you are unable to properly represent your reasoning. In that case we can move on.



> Again, observation haki is key to situational awareness. That is literally it's core function. Second, slicing an obvious threat is in no universe other than the fantastical farts your brain seems to generate, more impressive than detecting and countering unknown threats.



It is only part of the equation. And who has better observation was never up for debate just like who has better armament. Quick thinking, adaptability, working with what you have etc. are all very important for battle intelligence. And it was Zoro who shined in this regard despite being on the cusp of oblivion. And sure it wasn’t impressive, but as much as you downplay it, he saved useless Sanij’s life in that critical moment.



> Don't recall Nami being able to outdrink the guy who literally does nothing but drink all day. Further, the attack sent them flying, meaning it had some concussive force, meaning it would almost certainly have knocked out Nami even from the sheer force alone.



Reread Whiskey Peak buddy



> Yeah, that's stupid. Fujitora and a ton of marines were there and clearly saw what lead up to Doffy and Pica's defeats. Not to mention, doffy is more talkative than Mr. 1 but he talks more about completely different things.



Yeah having Doffy squeal is stupid but having Mr. 1 squealmakes perfect sense. Sure. Whatever suits the agenda.

Seriously though both are stupid scenarios, but if one is more likely to talk it is Doffy.



> Morgans is a man with sources but he clearly doesn't have them every where. Except his sources could fly with doffy and Fujitora to green bit, there was no way they would know what went on with sanji. And that's assuming he had sources within dressrosa at the time.
> 
> *Oda has already explained that generally, all crew members get a bump in their bounties when their captain gets a bump.*



That is not always the case. Wano group didn’t get major bumps after Whole Cake. And there are clearly many ways to assess his presence in Dressrosa that can be pulled out of your ass like you did with Zoro and Mr. 1 where there were no marines to witness. Heck since meme and Morgans are in good terms the meme pirates could have discussed with him about Sanji leading the swirly hat pirates.

Ultimately It is all conjecture but typically those who deserve spikes get their spikes even if we don’t see overtly any marine there to witness.



> So let's say it isn't multiple tiers. Let's say it just a single tier. We know for a fact that there exists a massive gap in just a single tier. So at the end, it really makes no difference given the massive gap
> 
> Also Mr. 1 was more durable than Luffy regarding SLICING AND PIERCING ATTACKS. Not that it matters as Luffy would have smashed him to bits.



Crocodile wasn’t some amazing slugger who could smash him to bits. Dehydration is how he would end up winning. And I still maintain that Daz could put up a fight if given liquid as purely as a combatant Croc wasn’t too special and and a lot of his AoE could be blocked. Croc also wouldn’t be able to poison him easily. Even if his hook is hard, he has shown no evidence of cutting steel at the time.



> The main point is that Luffy is the one they put their faith in to take down the strongest. Zoro and Sanji get their faith to take down the STRONG FIGHTERS.



Yes they put their faith in the monster trio to put down the main fighters. Luffy typically goes for the strongest, Zoro second strongest, Sanji third strongest. They never specifically say that only Luffy can do it. Luffy simply does it due to his nature.



> *Ehhh...they fought each other as zombies and were dead even.* Zoro was too weak to move about and asked sanji to smash the Pacifista towards him. He was given the chance because he asked for it.



Come on man 



> Oz exhibited traits similar to Luffy's rubber man body meaning he would be far more resistant to blunt force attacks than piercing attacks hence it makes sense that zoro hurt him. However the most impressive feat in the fight would be sanji matching and deflecting the bazooka which was Oz's strongest attack.



Luffy broke his back with a blunt G3 attack. Of course he was susceptible to that. And Sanji’s and Zoro’s blocks were equivalent in how much they impressed. Oars’s attack against Sanji was stronger but remember DJ at that time was a huge deal it was sanji’s trump card. He used his ultimate move to barely change the downward trajectory of the attack a small angle. Zoro without any special attack or run up simply deflected the horizontal attack side ways. And additionally, he did far more overall to Oars in the fight. He was overall definitely more impressive.



> They did equivalent damage against the wave but this was base Luffy. Their "fight" was a draw but by Arabasta, it was clear that zoro wasn't even close.
> 
> Arlong shat his pants at the fact that zoro was standing in spite of his injury. He never implied that zoro at the time could have beaten him uninjured. Rather that zoro would be a real threat in future if he didn't kill him them hence his saying he could not let a man like zoro live.



And Zoro didn’t use his special power up or strongest attack either. He specifically

He specifically talked about finishing Zoro off here and then implying Zoro would be a big threat in the future if he survived.



> Which was by far the largest contribution. He also was the one who beat Asgard Moria.



Not it wasn’t it was the final contribution. Multiple factors needed to be in play to set up for the kill, without which the attack wouldn’t have worked. He did something that others couldn’t and others did things that he couldn’t.

His blunt damage is what kept him alive against Shadows asgard. The rest of the crew would have been crushed. He never looked superior if we take matchup advantages out of the picture.



> But one would think in would be on while in battle or actively looking for a strong fighter



Again, there are many exceptions to this. Oda has been very inconsistent with his application fo CoO with people using it some times and ignoring it on others. Some examples of which I already provided.



> How would sanji being zoro's equal usurp his dream?
> Is sanji in that deluded head space of yours, also a swordsman?



Once again your ability to compute when it comes to concepts that require a modicum of thought is outstanding

It is simple. Zoro strives so hard to become the world’s strongest and ends up beating the world’s strongest and finally achieves his goal. If Sanji can also beat that same person as well without all of Zoro’s tireless effort and emotional weight attached to it that kind of craps all over the feat. Sanji Is the cook of the crew, also one of the most intelligent planners, and the guy who has his own dreams. Zoro is literally the combatant who also leads when Luffy is gone. Sanji equalling that role as well would simply crap all over it. And the fact that a very very rare minority want this just shows yourself as being greedy.


> And lols, I just made a theory on how where EOS sanji will end up the same way you made a theory about Admiral lvl Coby by the final war. Don't know why you are so mad coz I don't believe your "imaginary universe" the same way you apparently don't believe mine.



Can’t defend yourself in this debate so you are randomly bringing up Coby? 



> The fact that it isn't mandatory is the end of your argument tbh



Yeah no. It is not mandatory but important and a big reason for why Zoro will ALWAYS end up stronger. Heck the main reason.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shunsuiju (Jan 29, 2021)

Killer is up there for a reason and isn't just standing around either. Sanji would make it close but the benefit of the doubt is still with Killer.


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## Great Potato (Jan 29, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> He's also one shot headliners and some of big mom's veterans (Raisin and Bobbins) with casual attacks.



Imagine unironically using 4 Tricks to try hyping Sanji against the Supernova who are fighting Kaido, that must be one of the silliest things I've seen come from the battledome.

The funny thing is not only are you scraping the bottom of the barrel with these examples, but Sanji did not even one shot Bobbin with his kick, he didn't even put him down temporarily. Sanji kicked an off guard Bobbin in the head and the Fixer got up instantly to start chasing him down, it was Vito who had to step in to clean up Sanji's mess and actually put down Bobbin. 

Sanji jumping out and kicking Raisin by surprise with Diable Jambe (the technique that's not casual that you compared to Gear 3rd) was immediately followed up with him getting swatted out of the sky like a bug by Yuen and needing to be saved by his family who then mocked him for being slow. How are these the examples you come up with in support of Sanji?

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 3 | Winner 2 | Useful 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Imagine unironically using 4 Tricks to try hyping Sanji against the Supernova who are fighting Kaido, that must be one of the silliest things I've seen come from the battledome.


If you had followed the conversation, the question being answered was whether sanji has one shot any for at all and this was answered.  

I don't understand your malice tbh. 4 tricks is a headliner. One shotting him with a casual kick is impressive within the context of the story.




Great Potato said:


> The funny thing is not only are you scraping the bottom of the barrel with these examples, but Sanji did not even one shot Bobbin with his kick, he didn't even put him down temporarily. Sanji kicked an off guard Bobbin in the head and the Fixer got up instantly to start chasing him down, it was Vito who had to step in to clean up Sanji's mess and actually put down Bobbin.


I am "scrapping the bottom of the barrel" as opposed to killer who has *checks note* nothing to actually scrap off. Not to mention the super novas themselves don't have a lot of feats where they straight up one shot foes. 

As for the Bobbins example, yes Bobbins wasn't on guard but it was a casual unnamed kick. And yes, Bobbins got up AFTER sanji had already left and his allies came around.

Sanji didn't bother trying to finish off Bobbins so I don't get the whole Vito cleaning his mess bit. Heck it was a betrayal which bobbins from his statement clearly didn't see coming as opposed to a straight up match up.




Great Potato said:


> Sanji jumping out and kicking Raisin by surprise with Diable Jambe (the technique that's not casual that you compared to Gear 3rd) was immediately followed up with him getting swatted out of the sky like a bug by Yuen and needing to be saved by his family who then mocked him for being slow.


Surprise? Raisin came at him and Sanji counter attacked. Also stop talking like a novice. Just because he is using DJ doesn't mean every single attack is equal to the other. Zoro and Luffy aren't the only ones with different attack grades.

Heck G3 isnt one shotting anyone of note in the story either (referring to Luffy at that stage in the story) so again, I don't see how G3 comes out looking superior.

Not even gonna bother with the rest coz it ain't relevant to the question being answered.




Great Potato said:


> How are these the examples you come up with in support of Sanji?


In support of a particular point raised, yes.

Now be a good boy and bring something/anything for Killer.


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## Great Potato (Jan 29, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> If you had followed the conversation, the question being answered was whether sanji has one shot any for at all and this was answered.
> 
> I don't understand your malice tbh. 4 tricks is a headliner. One shotting him with a casual kick is impressive within the context of the story.
> 
> I am "scrapping the bottom of the barrel" as opposed to killer who has *checks note* nothing to actually scrap off. Not to mention the super novas themselves don't have a lot of feats where they straight up one shot foes.



4 Tricks is some scrub gag character that I'm certain even Chopper would slap silly, his whole existence is a one page gag for the audience to laugh at how much of a joke he is. You've lost the plot if you're unironically trying to prop up 4 Tricks as a noteworthy feat that should be held in high regard.



Kroczilla said:


> As for the Bobbins example, yes Bobbins wasn't on guard but it was a casual unnamed kick. And yes, Bobbins got up AFTER sanji had already left and his allies came around.



This is literally the next page after Sanji kicks him...



In what universe did he get one-shot?



Kroczilla said:


> Surprise? Raisin came at him and Sanji counter attacked. Also stop talking like a novice. Just because he is using DJ doesn't mean every single attack is equal to the other. Zoro and Luffy aren't the only ones with different attack grades.



No, Raisin had his full attention on Luffy. None of the Big Mom pirates even knew Sanji was there at the time because he had been hiding in disguise up until he jumped out and struck Raisin with the Diable Jambe, then he instantly got wrecked once they all knew he was there.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 29, 2021)

convict said:


> I didn't incorporate the latest chapter in to this discussion yet due to spoilers, but will do so next post.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I doubt anyone will truly check that wall of text for spoilers, not even a mod that gets paid for that job 

 

No hate

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Kroczilla (Jan 29, 2021)

convict said:


> Drake was also in the vicinity. Law never faced Page 1 before and lets be real here. Law going all out against Page 1 would be a massacre. Come on.


Almost didn't notice your response coz for some reason, I don't get notifications despite being responded to. But anyways, to the point....


Yes Law has never faced Page1, but he's never faced Drake either.
Yes, Drake was in the vicinity, but Page1 was right in front of them. And he fleeing he mentioned the F6 i.e. P1 AND DRAKE.

Whatever you may think of how Law would have performed against P1 doesn't change the fact that he was at the time PORTRAYED as someone whom Law could not guarantee a victory against (Oda's words, not mine).




convict said:


> Page 1 couldn’t sense Sanji on top of him? You think Page 1’s range is only 50m when Usopp first learned it his range went on for a huge distance in Dressrosa and Zoro Sanji in FI also had long range? Law and Franky were right next to Sanji and Page 1 didn't make any comment of their potential strength. He never even noticed Sanji coming towards him when he was trashing the city. Face it. He isn't very consistent in utilizing observation.



Apples and oranges. Ussop is the sniper of the crew. Him having long range COO is in line with his role in the story as a SNIPER.

FI M3's range wasn't particularly long iirc. They detected Caribou who was just a few floors above as opposed to sanji who was atleast several dozen metres away.

After which sanji came at him from high up in the sky.

P1's focus and sole concern was the Soba seller hence he didn't bother with the others.



convict said:


> Come on I already talked about this. Sanji’s presence was hidden amongst many.


And I have called that pure BS. Sanji is miles stronger than all those ladies combined. Literally the first use of COO as shown by Rayleigh is to detect the strong within a given area. There is no way Hawkins and Drake would have missed someone with that strength in spirit.




convict said:


> So we are still going with YOU know more about the raid suit than Sanji then.


I am going with the FEATS speak for themselves. Not mention, I believe you made a rant earlier about sanji not "being a scientist" so I don't know why you mad that he possibly doesn't understand what he truly has.




convict said:


> Delusional. I guess Vergo’s base leg kick are also far stronger than Doffy’s 5 colored string too.


Already addressed this point with you.

Sanji's body was damaged before Vergo even came along. If anything, this only further proves that Sanji wasn't in peak form Vs Vergo.




convict said:


> Sure think it more and might become true.


Well when it does, give me a call.




convict said:


> And Zoro trains his body far more than anyone. That isn’t even up for debate. In their free time I don’t think I have ever seen Sanji being shown to train. Sanji focuses on his legs in his fighting style and Zoro his upper body. Either way he trains the most. Baseless to claim Sanji’s focus was on improving his body’s strength and not Zoro


Zoro trains his STRENGTH more than anyone, focus exclusively on arm strength for presumably greater striking power. Sanji's entire 2 year training focused almost exclusively on body strength in general (from running, fighting and actually winning the ability to cook meals that are said to improve body development).




convict said:


> Especially by someone who gets sent flying by Page 1 while blocking WITH his legs.


Again, it's been said that Ancient zoans are brute force monsters. Not to mention sanji was blocking as opposed to actually countering with his own kick. As shown in his brief skirmishes with Daifuku, that makes all the difference.





convict said:


> Once again, at least he doesn’t have negative feats like vs Zoro and getting taken out by a couple minor electricity attacks
> 
> 
> 
> That one was actually embarrassing. Imaging if Killer and Zoro are near that poor in durability considering they are facing the lightning of an emperor


Apart from the fact that it is unknown how zoro or killer would have dealt with the attack (which sanji absolutely dropped all defense against due to the threat on Zeff's life), we have seen sanji tank a stronger attack from raid suit judge to the face with barely any damage.




Again, other than getting laid out cold by any attack that hits, Killer has no actual feats to speak off.



convict said:


> Because they are evil fuckers that is why. Jesus, bandages are not his fashion sense. Again. This doesn’t need to be repeated.



They are evil but not unreasonable. Heck they came to an understanding with killer after conventional torture didn't work. If they were still torturing him after the deal they made, it would certainly have been mentioned.



convict said:


> Read the context of my post again man…
> 
> You claimed like a pure ignoramus that Luffy’s base bazooka should still be equivalent to Rengoku Onigiri when that is clearly not the case. He used G2 on Hyouzu which was easily blocked and that is stronger than his base attacks. That is why I used Hyouzou as an example. Zoro’s current Rengoku onigiri is completely different from Luffy’s base bazooka now. Luffy had to focus on a lot of other things like G4 while Zoro worked on strengthening existing techniques in the TS.



So how strong exactly is Rengoku Onigiri?

Is it stronger than red hawk? G3 elephant gun? Coz if it's not, you have already lost the plot.



convict said:


> And Sanji knocked out Luffy? That is your claim to fame?
> 
> Luffy was on his last legs.
> 
> ...


Luffy on his "last legs" held out for hours of Katakuri wailing on him.

Knocking out headliners with casual kicks is impressive within the story's context.

You asked for feats of sanji K.O. which were provided. Now I trust you will do same for Killer?




convict said:


> He also used it on FRIKKIN KAIDO. It is a mid tier attack of his. Or course not one of his



The fact that he used it on Kaido while using Emma which he clearly relied on to get the job done, is not helping your case.

Again, how strong exactly do you think Rengoku Onigiri is compared with Luffy's attacks?



convict said:


> Zoro “Required” to use 3000 worlds on Pica’s body the same way Luffy “required” to use King Kong Gun on a half dead Doffy.


Lol, not even remotely the same. 1080 phoenix pound canon showed that it could cut pica but couldn't outright separate the body parts i.e. it didn't have any thing close to the power of 3000 worlds.




convict said:


> Just hilarious that you think Law can block such attacks with purely his CoA. In a swordsmanship duel with Zoro he doesn’t even need to use his sword to block unless Zoro goes 3000 worlds or above


Given Law's COA blocked strings which even room couldn't cut at the time, and given that his COA >>> Pica's, he absolutely gets the benefit of doubt.




convict said:


> 100% I can.
> 
> 
> It wouldn’t get the job done against the Gollum because it lacks AoE but it would get the job done against the Hakified Pica that was without any rock to hide in.


Except you can't. If anything the context doesn't even give you anything to work with as Pica despite seeing an attack that sent his body parts flying, a feats which Rengoku Onigiri could certainly not come close to achieving, didn't think it would get past his COA. He might have underestimated the actual strength of the attack, but he certainly saw its feats.





convict said:


> But again, he will get caught eventually even with knowledge. Ludacris to suggest Zoro wouldn’t be able to tag Sanji once. He doesn’t have the feats of dodging someone on Zoro’s level for extended periods, nor the hype to do so.




Sanji has the feat of dodging repeated strikes from Judge. Further, zoro doesn't have the feat of tagging someone on his level in an extended fight. Heck dragon kaido outright dodge his attack and he ain't exactly the fastest or hardest to hit target in the verse.



convict said:


> Thinking God Damn Mihawk was going all out against pre-skip Luffy and couldn’t tag him...


I agree Mihawk wasn't going all out. Butler his own words, he wasn't holding back either.


convict said:


> Mihawk was testing Luffy and wouldn’t hesitate to cut him if he failed.


See above. He even asked that Shanks forgave him coz he didn't plan on holding back




convict said:


> Current Zoro or Sanji would instantly blitz and oneshot pre-skip Luffy if they went all out yet Mihawk can't


Yes, they would. But again Mihawk per his own words, wasn't holding back.




convict said:


> All we know is most of the commanders got out right in front of the ship right before Mihawk attacked.



But we know that Mihawk aimed specifically at WB. Something no one expected hence it is ludicrous to think Jozu was just standing in front waiting for an attack they didn't expect. It is equally Ludicrous to think that HAWKEYES could not see a clear path to his target before attacking.


convict said:


> At the very least those ranged attacks thoroughly distracted Luffy and helped



Yeah, but it wouldn't have worked so well if Luffy had been invisible and had flight.



convict said:


> The fact that Kaku trained in speed techniques does not help my case in arguing for his speed?



We are debating zoro's speed in relation to Kaku's. Zoro isn't a mobile fighter at all, hence he isn't going to be zipping around a room or some shit like that. It doesn't mean he is slower. If he was, Ashura Path would never have tagged Kaku.



convict said:


> G2 Luffy isn’t a speed technique and didn’t make him MUCH faster?



Even without G2, Luffy was keeping up with and saw through Cp9's signature speed technique (i.e. Soru).



convict said:


> You keep repeatedly harping about PHYSICS but have not remotely attempted to go in depth about this with me for the past 3-4 posts now and continue to evade.
> 
> I guess you are unable to properly represent your reasoning. In that case we can move on.


When I first mentioned that cutting a meteor would be far more difficult, you went on to bring facts about the rock composition of meteors. This tells me atleast that you are more than capable of doing your own homework in that regard, hence I gave you a hint i.e. the physics behind Meteors, heck even what happens as an object moves faster.

This is foundational shit. I am not gonna hold your hand for you all the way.




convict said:


> It is only part of the equation. And who has better observation was never up for debate just like who has better armament. *Quick thinking, adaptability, working with what you have* etc. are all very important for battle intelligence.


It's a good thing sanji has a truck load of feats in those regards as opposed to zoro's single feat of slicing a rock that was right in front of him.




convict said:


> And it was Zoro who shined in this regard despite being on the cusp of oblivion. And sure it wasn’t impressive, but as much as you downplay it, he saved useless Sanij’s life in that critical moment.



Okay, he saved the life of Sanji in Nami's body. So what , do we give him a medal?



convict said:


> Yeah having Doffy squeal is stupid but having Mr. 1 squealmakes perfect sense. Sure. Whatever suits the agenda.
> 
> Seriously though both are stupid scenarios, but if one is more likely to talk it is Doffy.



Again Doffy talks but all he ever blabs about are the things that are going to result from his defeat. There is also no need to quiz him as Fujitora already gave Luffy full credits for beating him.

Daz on the other hand is a man made of steel who managed to get cut and defeated by a swordsman. It doesn't take much to guess that said swordsman is zoro.



convict said:


> That is not always the case. Wano group didn’t get major bumps after Whole Cake. And there are clearly many ways to assess his presence in Dressrosa that can be pulled out of your ass like you did with Zoro and Mr. 1 where there were no marines to witness. Heck since meme and Morgans are in good terms the meme pirates could have discussed with him about Sanji leading the swirly hat pirates.



Jesus, this is a VERY LONG REACH. See above. The two scenerios are completely different. Sanji Vs Doffy wasn't even a major event in itself that would warrant any kind of look into. Also thinking sanji would tell the BM crew jack about that it just plain silly. Not to mention, Dressrosa was over with Fujitora's admission pretty much removing any doubt as to who was actually responsible for Doffy's defeat.



convict said:


> Crocodile wasn’t some amazing slugger who could smash him to bits. Dehydration is how he would end up winning. And I still maintain that Daz could put up a fight if given liquid as purely as a combatant Croc wasn’t too special and and a lot of his AoE could be blocked. Croc also wouldn’t be able to poison him easily. Even if his hook is hard, he has shown no evidence of cutting steel at the time.


Crocodile doesn't need dehydration. His slices him up with his sand blades. Also daz isn't even close to being as agile and quick a fighter as Luffy was which was the only reason Luffy was able to actually get hits in. Giving daz water would change absolutely nothing.




convict said:


> Yes they put their faith in the monster trio to put down the main fighters. Luffy typically goes for the strongest, Zoro second strongest, Sanji third strongest. They never specifically say that only Luffy can do it. Luffy simply does it due to his nature.


Again this is false. Heck even in alabasta, it was clear that Crocodile was top dog and everyone simply believed Luffy could pull it off. Ditto Lucci and Moria.




convict said:


> Come on man


What? Isn't that a portrayal (which you seem to be in love with) of equality? Not to mention per the context, neither had any of their morals.


convict said:


> Luffy broke his back with a blunt G3 attack. Of course he was susceptible to that. And Sanji’s and Zoro’s blocks were equivalent in how much they impressed. Oars’s attack against Sanji was stronger but remember DJ at that time was a huge deal it was sanji’s trump card. He used his ultimate move to barely change the downward trajectory of the attack a small angle. Zoro without any special attack or run up simply deflected the horizontal attack side ways. And additionally, he did far more overall to Oars in the fight. He was overall definitely more impressive.


A regular punch which was what zoro deflected doesn't even come close to a bazooka which is miles above in terms of power.

Sanji matched the attack briefly, then changed the trajectory enough that Robin wasn't hurt by its massive AOE.


convict said:


> And Zoro didn’t use his special power up or strongest attack either.


Pound canon at that stage of the story was one of his Strongest moves.




convict said:


> He specifically talked about finishing Zoro off here and then implying Zoro would be a big threat in the future if he survived.



Yes, exactly, a big  threat in the future which undoubtedly became the case after zoro defeated daz and transcended his former self. But at the time, there is absolutely nothing to suggest healthy zoro would have faired better.



convict said:


> Not it wasn’t it was the final contribution. Multiple factors needed to be in play to set up for the kill, without which the attack wouldn’t have worked. He did something that others couldn’t and others did things that he couldn’t.
> 
> His blunt damage is what kept him alive against Shadows asgard. The rest of the crew would have been crushed. He never looked superior if we take matchup advantages out of the picture.


His blunt damage resistance is part of his arsenal, no?




convict said:


> Again, there are many exceptions to this. Oda has been very inconsistent with his application fo CoO with people using it some times and ignoring it on others. Some examples of which I already provided.



Given that we have atleast two examples to work with, its more of a pattern being established.



convict said:


> It is simple. Zoro strives so hard to become the world’s strongest *swordsman* and ends up beating the world’s strongest *swordsman* and finally achieves his goal. If Sanji can also beat that same person as well without all of Zoro’s tireless effort and emotional weight attached to it that kind of craps all over the feat. Sanji Is the cook of the crew, also one of the most intelligent planners, and the guy who has his own dreams. Zoro is literally the combatant who also leads when Luffy is gone. Sanji equalling that role as well would simply crap all over it. And the fact that a very very rare minority want this just shows yourself as being greedy.


I noticed you keep leaving out the most important context so I decided to help you with that.

Now, to address the points behind raised, zoro AND sanji are the combatants of the crew. It's a role they both share as acknowledged by the rest of the crew. Sanji is the cook but is equally as great a fighter again, as highlighted by the crew who have the same amount of confidence in their respective abilities.


If all this about emotional weight and whatnot were things Oda cared about, then he would have long ago dropped all pretences of a rivalry as he did regarding Luffy and most of his fellow Super novas.



convict said:


> Can’t defend yourself in this debate so you are randomly bringing up Coby?



There was no point debating an irrelevant point, especially on an issue that is absolute speculation at this stage.



convict said:


> Yeah no. It is not mandatory but important and a big reason for why Zoro will ALWAYS end up stronger. Heck the main reason.



It is neither mandatory nor of great importance in the grand scheme of things. Also being rivals wouldn't mean zoro wouldn't be stronger. It would mean that their strength is just about equal.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 30, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> 4 Tricks is some scrub gag character that I'm certain even Chopper would slap silly, his whole existence is a one page gag for the audience to laugh at how much of a joke he is. You've lost the plot if you're unironically trying to prop up 4 Tricks as a noteworthy feat that should be held in high regard.


So chopper can also slap a headliner silly now?

It doesn't matter that his appearance was rubbish, the fact is at the end, he is a headliner. And Sanji one shot him without even being serious.




Great Potato said:


> This is literally the next page after Sanji kicks him...
> 
> *Spoiler*:
> 
> In what universe did he get one-shot



Bobbins could not pursue. Not to mention this was an unnamed attack and given sanji's state of mind at the time, likely had no haki behind it.



Great Potato said:


> No, Raisin had his full attention on Luffy. None of the Big Mom pirates even knew Sanji was there at the time because he had been hiding in disguise up until he jumped out and struck Raisin with the Diable Jambe, then he instantly got wrecked once they all knew he was there.


Him getting caught off guard by Fuen as a result of him being distracted by Pekoms' screams is besides the point being made which is that sanji one shot a veteran with an regular DJ attack.

Mind pointing me to the feats for Killer?


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## convict (Jan 30, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> I doubt anyone will truly check that wall of text for spoilers, not even a mod that gets paid for that job
> 
> 
> 
> No hate



True 

I mainly spoiler tag it to reduce clutter from tl:drs for normal people so they can go about their day


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## TheWiggian (Jan 30, 2021)

convict said:


> True
> 
> I mainly spoiler tag it to reduce clutter from tl:drs for normal people so they can go about there day



Makes sense and a wise choice, no wonder you wear a Grandmaster avatar. It's a sign of experience, mastery and competence

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Funny 3


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## TheWiggian (Jan 30, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Apples and oranges. Ussop is the sniper of the crew. Him having long range COO is in line with his role in the story as a SNIPER.
> 
> FI M3's range wasn't particularly long iirc. They detected Caribou who was just a few floors above as opposed to sanji who was atleast several dozen metres away.



You kidding right? Zoro the one with the worst CoO from the M3 as alot of people you included like to claim was capable of pinpointing the arrival and order of each strawhat when he returned from the TS over the whole SA. 

M3 CoO shits on Usopp.



Kroczilla said:


> Zoro trains his STRENGTH more than anyone, focus exclusively on arm strength for presumably greater striking power. Sanji's entire 2 year training focused almost exclusively on body strength in general (from running, fighting and actually winning the ability to cook meals that are said to improve body development).



I fucking hope he cooks a massive, revitalising meal soon, PH is too long ago and cooking for an enemy especially a fat, disgusting bitch that still tries to kill his nakama isn't cutting it for me.





Kroczilla said:


> So how strong exactly is Rengoku Onigiri?



Strong enough to one shot a guy you compare base Sanji to.


Kroczilla said:


> Lol, not even remotely the same. 1080 phoenix pound canon showed that it could cut pica but couldn't outright separate the body parts i.e. it didn't have any thing close to the power of 3000 worlds.



1080 PH cleanly bisected the Pica golem so yea it's compareable to Ichidai Sanzen slashes:


*Spoiler*: __ 














Kroczilla said:


> Except you can't. If anything the context doesn't even give you anything to work with as Pica despite seeing an attack that sent his body parts flying, a feats which Rengoku Onigiri could certainly not come close to achieving, didn't think it would get past his COA. He might have underestimated the actual strength of the attack, but he certainly saw its feats.



Pica was a cornered rat that had no way out, it's after 1080 PH that he decided to only run away as he knew he was hopeless against the grandmaster.



Kroczilla said:


> Sanji has the feat of dodging repeated strikes from Judge. Further, zoro doesn't have the feat of tagging someone on his level in an extended fight. Heck dragon kaido outright dodge his attack and he ain't exactly the fastest or hardest to hit target in the verse.



Kaido is a Yonko who tagged multiple scabbards in a 1 Vs 9 in dragon form. His stats are among the strongest characters in every category, not to mention that you spoil things here.



Kroczilla said:


> Crocodile doesn't need dehydration. His slices him up with his sand blades. Also daz isn't even close to being as agile and quick a fighter as Luffy was which was the only reason Luffy was able to actually get hits in. Giving daz water would change absolutely nothing.



Croc hasn't shown the ability to cut steel before MF. Give him liquid and if it lands each attack Atomic Spar, Sparkling Daisy, Spar Break, Spiral Hollow fucks Croc up very, very well.

You're very greedy here in terms of props towards the assassin.



Kroczilla said:


> A regular punch which was what zoro deflected doesn't even come close to a bazooka which is miles above in terms of power.
> 
> Sanji matched the attack briefly, then changed the trajectory enough that Robin wasn't hurt by its massive AOE.
> 
> Pound canon at that stage of the story was one of his Strongest moves.



And Oars decided to dodge it instead of tanking or matching.




Kroczilla said:


> Yes, exactly, a big  threat in the future which undoubtedly became the case after zoro defeated daz and transcended his former self. But at the time, there is absolutely nothing to suggest healthy zoro would have faired better.



The wound disagrees and your favourite character too:


*Spoiler*: __ 











Kroczilla said:


> Now, to address the points behind raised, zoro AND sanji are the combatants of the crew. It's a role they both share as acknowledged by the rest of the crew. Sanji is the cook but is equally as great a fighter again, as highlighted by the crew who have the same amount of confidence in their respective abilities.



Sanji is the cook and Zoro the combatant if you want to be factually correct.



Kroczilla said:


> It is neither mandatory nor of great importance in the grand scheme of things. Also being rivals wouldn't mean zoro wouldn't be stronger. It would mean that their strength is just about equal.


 
Since when does Sanji compete with Zoro by trying to become the WSS? Or Zoro with Sanji as to who finds the all blue first?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Great Potato (Jan 30, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Mind pointing me to the feats for Killer?



Killer's feats have already been pointed out to you.

For example critically wounding Zoro while nerfed and without his main weapons, to which you then pretended didn't mean anything because "Zoro has no durability feats". Makes it doubly hilarious that you then turned around and started praising scrubs like 4 Tricks, Bobbin, and Raisin who have fuck all for feats or hype, like any of the Supernova wouldn't stomp the three of them combined.

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 30, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> You kidding right? Zoro the one with the worst CoO from the M3 as alot of people you included like to claim was capable of pinpointing the arrival and order of each strawhat when he returned from the TS over the whole SA.
> 
> M3 CoO shits on Usopp.


Not that I doubt you, but I would like a scan of that zoro feat of possible.

Further, that seems like a massive inconsistency. Even in Wano, zoro couldn't pinpoint Luffy's arrival until they were literally face to face.

Heck in that same Sabody, he and Sanji got to find where Luffy was due to the ruckus he was causing despite being relatively close by.



TheWiggian said:


> Strong enough to one shot a guy you compare base Sanji to.


Touché. Still doesn't address my broader point in that regard which is killer is anywhere near the sheer tank/mass of tenacity that is zoro i.e. he isn't holding out against an onslaught of kicks.


TheWiggian said:


> 1080 PH cleanly bisected the Pica golem so yea it's compareable to Ichidai Sanzen slashes:



Yes it bisected him, but Ichidai Sanzen straight up sent the different parts to completely different directions. Thats another level of power entirely



TheWiggian said:


> Pica was a cornered rat that had no way out, it's after 1080 PH that he decided to only run away as he knew he was hopeless against the grandmaster.


*Sighs* Pica losing to zoro is besides the point. Zoro would not have gotten it done so quickly and in that manners with Rengoku Onigiri. 




TheWiggian said:


> Kaido is a Yonko who tagged multiple scabbards in a 1 Vs 9 in dragon form. His stats are among the strongest characters in every category, not to mention that you spoil things here.


Yeah, but he is also a very very VERY large target. Sanji's agility, invisibility and mobility more than make up any stats difference




TheWiggian said:


> Croc hasn't shown the ability to cut steel before MF. Give him liquid and if it lands each attack Atomic Spar, Sparkling Daisy, Spar Break, Spiral Hollow fucks Croc up very, very well.
> 
> You're very greedy here in terms of props towards the assassin.


Mr 1 isn't landing hits on croc. His fighting style is way too static unlike Luffy's. I would also say croc slicing through the royal palace in a single move (which >>> any of daz's techniques) is more that enough to get past daz's steel body.




TheWiggian said:


> And Oars decided to dodge it instead of tanking or matching.




Yeah, Oz is clearly more vulnerable to cutting attacks.


TheWiggian said:


> The wound disagrees and your favourite character too:



I didn't say that the would didn't hinder him. I said even healthy there is no proof that it would at the time, have allowed him take on Arlong.



TheWiggian said:


> Sanji is the cook and Zoro the combatant if you want to be factually correct.


They are both the primary combatants. Hence the nickname M3.




TheWiggian said:


> Since when does Sanji compete with Zoro by trying to become the WSS




They clearly have a competition regarding who can do the most with regards to strength, something that was established since little garden where they paralleled two giants in an eternal rivalry (for @convict given his love relationship with MUH PORTRAYALS)


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## Kroczilla (Jan 30, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Killer's feats have already been pointed out to you



Let's see,



Great Potato said:


> For example critically wounding Zoro while nerfed and without his main weapons, to which you then pretended didn't mean anything because "Zoro has no durability feats".



First off, my statement about zoro's durability was that it at best currently scales to Sanji's given zoro's lack of feats in that regard and there being no difference regarding their durability pretime skip.

Second, this is raid suit sanji i.e.miles more durable than that.

Third, Killer landed that hit when zoro was caught off guard. It's unlikely he would have landed it in a pure 1v1 match up. Even far more unlikely against RS Sanji.


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## p1X3 (Jan 30, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> If you had followed the conversation, the question being answered was whether sanji has one shot any for at all and this was answered.
> 
> I don't understand your malice tbh. 4 tricks is a headliner. One shotting him with a casual kick is impressive within the context of the story.
> 
> ...


Sanjis Diable Jambe Attacks have always been portrayed around Luffys Gear 2 Attacks not Gear 3.  Infact Diable Jambe and Gear 2 are both used in a very casual manner post timeskip.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 30, 2021)

p1X3 said:


> Sanjis Diable Jambe Attacks have always been portrayed around Luffys Gear 2 Attacks not Gear 3.  Infact Diable Jambe and Gear 2 are both used in a very casual manner post timeskip.


Depending on the attack sanji is using.

For example, moves like concasser and poele a frite are clearly much stronger that his standard diable jambe hits

Edit: also iirc, Sanji's DJ was shown comparatively with Ashura Path and G3 at the conclusion of the Pacifista battle.

Not to mention multiple G2 hits could not put down Blueno for good. Whereas Sanji two shot a much stronger opponent with DJ.


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## p1X3 (Jan 30, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Depending on the attack sanji is using.
> 
> For example, moves like concasser and poele a frite are clearly much stronger that his standard diable jambe hits


Sanjis Stronger attacks  in diable jambe are probably* near* Gear 3 *but not quite Gear 3*. People dont understand *Gear 3 is pretty damn powerful/destructive , * it  covers* A LOT *of ground.  *Sanjis way of fighting functions more like Gear 2 *with the use of high speed attacks and fire.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Jan 30, 2021)

p1X3 said:


> Sanjis Stronger attacks  in diable jambe are probably* near* Gear 3 *but not quite Gear 3*. People dont understand *Gear 3 is pretty damn powerful/destructive , * it  covers* A LOT *of ground.  *Sanjis way of fighting functions more like Gear 2 *with the use of high speed attacks and fire.


Yes, G3 has more destructive force, but based in their joint feat against Big mom, it seems clear that with the right technique behind it, DJ can compete, attack potency wise.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bobybobster (Jan 30, 2021)

are kaido's wind scythes supposed to be invisible?


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## TheWiggian (Jan 30, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> are kaido's wind scythes supposed to be invisible?



translations seems to say invisible, maybe someone else translated it differently?


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## Lawliet (Jan 30, 2021)

I'm pretty sure Sanji is stronger with the Raid Suit. He just needs to prove it.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Skaddix (Jan 30, 2021)

Oda told you Sanji Fans the truth, Goda didnt lie to you mfers but you didnt want to believe the gospel truth. Sanji has peaked, he aint ever going to be that cool again so he can warm that fucking bench.

Killer >>> Sanji.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Typhon (Jan 30, 2021)

"Sanji has peaked"

Sanji hasn't used Hell's memories since Fishmen Island... It's crazy how for years I've had to hear "Zolo hasn't gone all out yet", but Sanji can't get the same courtesy.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Thdyingbreed (Jan 30, 2021)

I think right now it’s fair to say Killer could win in an extreme difficulty fight imo.



Typhon said:


> "Sanji has peaked"
> 
> Sanji hasn't used Hell's memories since Fishmen Island... It's crazy how for years I've had to hear "Zolo hasn't gone all out yet", but Sanji can't get the same courtesy.


I’m still waiting for him to use a DJ/HM enhanced version of Anti Manner kick course..but that never even happened pre-ts who knows if it’ll ever happen.


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 30, 2021)

Thdyingbreed said:


> I think right now it’s fair to say Killer could win in an extreme difficulty fight imo.
> 
> 
> *I’m still waiting for him to use a DJ/HM enhanced version of* *Anti Manner kick course*..but that never even happened pre-ts who knows if it’ll ever happen.


Me too bro, me too


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## convict (Feb 1, 2021)

@Kroczilla

Gonna level with you very bored of this now especially since I have 75 hr work weeks.

I haven't even bothered to read your latest response but will do so if you want and reply (by the weekend). I typically get annoyed if there is not even a modicum of resolution after so much writing but whatever I doubt it would happen anyway.

I'll end it with this:

My initial post to the topic was extreme diff/either way. But now that Killer has shown a specific attack to counter the raid suit: Internal damage and has canonically been able to react to invisible slashes (as stated in the manga) I change to Killer winning high diff.

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 2 | Informative 1 | Friendly 1


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## Great Potato (Feb 2, 2021)

The cherry on top of all of this is that Oda has now revealed he considers the Sanji becoming "King of Germa" to literally be the _bad ending _for his character. It's like he saw this thread and made it his mission this week to debunk everything @Kroczilla was saying.



Anyways, if you still want an offensive feats from Killer that are better than Sanji's then just read the latest chapter, any one of the attacks we saw in chapter 1002 would have massively overkilled Oven or Page One on the spot. Killer damaging Kaido and causing him to scream in agony absolutely eclipses one shotting 4 Tricks or Raisin by leaps and bounds, and the attack counters Raid Suit since it bypasses armor and hits the marshmallow center. By feats offense clearly goes to [Blocked Domain] and they all just easily reacted to invisible attacks as well. Cards are all in the Worst Gens favor right now and Sanji's chances boil down to benefit of the doubt that he'll pull something equally impressive later on.

Reactions: Winner 9


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## Vivo Diez (Feb 2, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> The cherry on top of all of this is that Oda has now revealed he considers the Sanji becoming "King of Germa" to literally be the _bad ending _for his character. It's like he saw this thread and made it his mission this week to debunk everything @Kroczilla was saying.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, if you still want an offensive feats from Killer that are better than Sanji's then just read the latest chapter, any one of the attacks we saw in chapter 1002 would have massively overkilled Oven or Page One on the spot. Killer damaging Kaido and causing him to scream in agony absolutely eclipses one shotting 4 Tricks or Raisin by leaps and bounds, and the attack counters Raid Suit since it bypasses armor and hits the marshmallow center. By feats offense is clearly in the Worst Gens favor and they all easily reacted to invisible attacks as well. Cards are all in the Worst Gens favor right now and Sanji's chances boil down to benefit of the doubt that he'll pull something equally impressive later on.


Would Killer beat Zoro ?


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## Kroczilla (Feb 2, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> The cherry on top of all of this is that Oda has now revealed he considers the Sanji becoming "King of Germa" to literally be the _bad ending _for his character. It's like he saw this thread and made it his mission this week to debunk everything @Kroczilla was saying.


If anything, I would say this proves that Sanji was/is the most suited to to take the role. Him doing that while being a Chef (you know, the hobby of his that was looked down upon) would make sense. The two roles are not mutually incompatible, particularly given that the Germa Kingdom is basically a floating resort in the making.

The Bad ending seems to sees him turn out exactly like Judge (i.e an evil bastard, uncaring about any one or anything). 

Any ways, even I pointed out that it's all speculation at this point given I can't see the future and all. I mean, isn't that part of the fun of following a series. Making speculations and theories.

I get being mad about the whole Vs battle thread thing, but I didn't expect to get such strong reactions from you and @convict over a theory.


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## Fang (Feb 2, 2021)

Why does Sanji not being a Supernova matter here at all? The entire thing about the Worst Generation of Rookie Pirates is that they have absurdly high bounties for their age and relative "experience" and its a running gag in the manga for Sanji to have a low bounty compared to Zoro and Luffy.  Its legitimately not relevant at all to discuss Sanji's abilities.


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## B Rabbit (Feb 2, 2021)

Fang said:


> Why does Sanji not being a Supernova matter here at all? The entire thing about the Worst Generation of Rookie Pirates is that they have absurdly high bounties for their age and relative "experience" and its a running gag in the manga for Sanji to have a low bounty compared to Zoro and Luffy.  Its legitimately not relevant at all to discuss Sanji's abilities.


Because they are hurt Sanji isn't on the roof.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 2, 2021)

Skaddix said:


> Oda told you Sanji Fans the truth, Goda didnt lie to you mfers but you didnt want to believe the gospel truth. Sanji has peaked, he aint ever going to be that cool again so he can warm that fucking bench.
> 
> Killer >>> Sanji.





Holy fuck i just looked up the whole interview and this pic/screenshot in particular is just killing me

Reactions: Funny 6


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## B Rabbit (Feb 2, 2021)

That can't be real.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 2, 2021)

B Rabbit said:


> That can't be real.



It's real man, majority is linked on twitter

Reactions: Funny 1


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## B Rabbit (Feb 2, 2021)

What the hell did Sanji do?


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## TheWiggian (Feb 2, 2021)

B Rabbit said:


> What the hell did Sanji do?



You've read WCI right? If not not: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



He was baking a big wedding cake.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## B Rabbit (Feb 2, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> You've read WCI right? If not not:
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


Oh I know I mean what did Sanji do to Oda.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 2, 2021)

B Rabbit said:


> Oh I know I mean what did Sanji do to Oda.



Who knows. But apparently baking that cake was the peak moment in Sanji's life according to Oda.

Reactions: Like 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Feb 2, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Would Killer beat Zoro ?


no


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## p1X3 (Feb 2, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Who knows. But apparently baking that cake was the peak moment in Sanji's life according to Oda.


Statements clearly not true, cause Oda's given Sanji more moments in Wano then Wholecake Island.  Idk why anybody actually believed that interview. When the entire thing was a joke. Did you read the rest of what Sanjis voice actor said?


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## LordVinsmoke (Feb 16, 2021)

just wondering people say zoro is one tier above sanji and they say zoro beat killer high diff so would sanji beat killer extreme diff i do not even think he needs raid suit with raid suit its a high diff without raid suit extreme


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## maupp (Feb 16, 2021)

"Sanji without Raid suit".

Reactions: Funny 5


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Killer high diff

Reactions: Like 2


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## TheWiggian (Feb 16, 2021)

maupp said:


> "Sanji without Raid suit".



Did you know that Killer can block Kaido's wind scythes with his punishers while RS Sanji gets damaged by King's unnamed beak attack.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## fenaker (Feb 16, 2021)

*- Sanji gets destroyed he extreme diffed Gifters  *

Reactions: Funny 2


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Sanji without the RS gets babyshaked

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## fenaker (Feb 16, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Sanji without the RS gets babyshaked


*- he needs another time skip *

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

fenaker said:


> *- he needs another time skip *


Base Sanji is probably below page one level

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 3 | Dislike 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 16, 2021)

fenaker said:


> *- Sanji gets destroyed he extreme diffed Gifters  *





ice demon slayer said:


> Sanji without the RS gets babyshaked





fenaker said:


> *- he needs another time skip *



Either give good argument or go back to your baby forum called WG .


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Either give good argument or go back to your baby forum called WG .


Lol what has base Sanji done to be anywhere near Killer ?

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## fenaker (Feb 16, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Either give good argument or go back to your baby forum called WG .


*yeah chrono 
Sasaki injured and made one of the strongest tobi roppo bleeding while lanji couldn't , Killer is fighting kaido and injuring him and doing better while lanji extreme diffed gifters and bled
*


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## fenaker (Feb 16, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> So has Zoro eh ???
> 
> Magical Enma up his ass !!


*Give us a panel that shows that it is called a magical sword *


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## Kingslayer (Feb 16, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Lol what has base Sanji done to be anywhere near Killer ?


Maybe you are reading two piece did you skip entire pre time skip ?


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Maybe you are reading two piece did you skip entire pre time skip ?


Pre skip ? Why are you bringing up this ? Still waiting for you to show me what has base Sanji done to be anywhere near Killer


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## fenaker (Feb 16, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Pre skip ? Why are you bringing up this ? Still waiting for you to show me what has base Sanji done to be anywhere near Killer


*WE NEED MORE FEATS FROM SANJI TO BE ON PAR WITH SHOGUN FRANKY LET ALONE A LEADER LIKE KILLER *

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 5


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Yeah Sanji will show what he can do but atm he doesn't stand a chance against Killer without the RS

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 16, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Pre skip ? Why are you bringing up this ? Still waiting for you to show me what has base Sanji done to be anywhere near Killer



Did you skip Fishman Island post ts if you did i am not going to argue with Sanji hater here .


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Did you skip Fishman Island post ts if you did i am not going to argue with Sanji hater here .


I didn't skip fi and in fi
Sanji hasn't done anything to say that he's anywhere near current Killer

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kingslayer (Feb 16, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> I didn't skip fi and in fi
> Sanji hasn't done anything to say that he's anywhere near current Killer


Changing narrative eeyh first you said Sanji do not have feat but again switches to Sanji is nowhere near Killer . 

I mean you havent posted any single panel that shows Killer above Sanji's feats yet so how will things roll in . Make subtle argument like your friend Cinera does  .


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 16, 2021)

Dark Shadow said:


> Changing narrative eeyh first you said Sanji do not have feat but again switches to Sanji is nowhere near Killer .
> 
> I mean you havent posted any single panel that shows Killer above Sanji's feats yet so how will things roll in . Make subtle argument like your friend Cinera does  .


Whatever you say Chrono

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kingslayer (Feb 16, 2021)

ice demon slayer said:


> Whatever you say Chrono


Name calling thats the Z boys from your forum  are good at . Btw I am Fallen Prince not Chrono .

He is one of those idiot i did not tolerate on your forum he keeps on making stupid argument like Sanji vs King with no hints . OL is far better i respect my G  Z bois here at least they dont resort to name calling people . Earn and take respect that how it rolls in .


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## NotTommy (Feb 16, 2021)

Currently, Sanji's lacking in the feats department. It's best to wait till he atleast starts his main fight before saying him and Killer aren't comparable. Killer is superior, by feats, in a lot as of right now but Sanji will display what he has soon enough.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## LordVinsmoke (Apr 5, 2021)

By feats he wins    KIller has no haki Sanji breaks his weapons then he goes no sword style  sanji he wins high extreme diff


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## Strobacaxi (Apr 5, 2021)

LordRice said:


> KIller has no haki

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Great Potato (Apr 5, 2021)

You'd have to be a masochist if you're a Sanji fan that's reviving this thread right now, it just gets worse for him each passing week.

Just pray he takes down a calamity and then we may have a bit of room for discussion.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Funny 3 | Useful 1


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## Draffut (Apr 5, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> You'd have to be a masochist if you're a Sanji fan that's reviving this thread right now, it just gets worse for him each passing week.
> 
> Just pray he takes down a calamity and then we may have a bit of room for discussion.



Clearly he's going to solo BM when she lands below.


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## Mylesime (Apr 5, 2021)

Chopper has better feats than Sanji on Onigashima at the minute.....

Stop playing yourselves, it's the hope that kills.....

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Van Basten (Apr 5, 2021)

If Sanji wasn’t a major character and Luffy’s second strongest subordinate, I’d say he would get the low end of mid-diffed at best.


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## Draffut (Apr 5, 2021)

Van Basten said:


> If Sanji wasn’t a major character and Luffy’s second strongest subordinate, I’d say he would get the low end of mid-diffed at best.



Second?  We forgot about first Yamato, second Jinbei, and third Zoro?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Van Basten (Apr 5, 2021)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> Second?  We forgot about first Yamato, second Jinbei, and third Zoro?




....

Reactions: Like 2


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## convict (Apr 5, 2021)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> Second?  We forgot about first Yamato, second Jinbei,* and third Zoro*?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 9


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## Skaddix (Apr 5, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> You'd have to be a masochist if you're a Sanji fan that's reviving this thread right now, it just gets worse for him each passing week.
> 
> Just pray he takes down a calamity and then we may have a bit of room for discussion.



Is he even 2nd Strongest right now lol?

Chopper and Frank the Tank look pretty good right now lol. Jinbe is no slouch.


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Apr 5, 2021)

Killer got low diffed by Zoro, but again Zoro can do the same to Sanji as well.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Daisuke Jigen (Apr 5, 2021)

Killer wins, obviously.

Reactions: Funny 10


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## A Optimistic (Apr 5, 2021)

Pretty sure Sonic Scythe can one shot Sanji if he wasn't wearing his raid suit, that attacked looked dangerous af.


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## Great Potato (Apr 5, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> Pretty sure Sonic Scythe can one shot Sanji if he wasn't wearing his raid suit, that attacked looked dangerous af.



The attack bypasses defenses and strikes internally, so I don't think the Raid Suit would do much to save him.


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## A Optimistic (Apr 5, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> The attack bypasses defenses and strikes internally, so I don't think the Raid Suit would do much to save him.



I suppose you're right,


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## Skaddix (Apr 5, 2021)

Why Sanji fans doing this to themselves...Sanji is on the road to being fucking Sakura lol....but worse cause he was great but then fell off lol.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## NotTommy (Apr 6, 2021)

Let's wait till Sanji makes an appearance again in the manga. He's still running somewhere off-panel. No need for this right now. Ya'll saw Killer last week? Nah...wait a while. 

All Sanji has at the moment is pretty good durability (that Killer could probably bypass since Killer didn't directly cut through Kaido's scales but still injured him). Sanji will get his arc fight but at the moment, he's lacking in the feats department.



Skaddix said:


> Is he even 2nd Strongest right now lol?
> 
> Chopper and Frank the Tank look pretty good right now lol. Jinbe is no slouch.


I mean...Chopper got a free hit on Queen but he ain't competing with Sanji, in my opinion. General Franky vs Raid Suit Sanji? I'd still give it to Sanji for his performance against Page One and being ok after the King clash. Jimbei still has better feats than Sanji though.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Geomancertactics (May 12, 2021)

This is actually a really good fight, Killer could bypass the RS dura with the sonic scythe but Sanji's raw speed and observation haki could make it so it never lands.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perrin (May 13, 2021)

Tricky. Killer has a mask so Sanji can’t feed him anything to defeat him. He will have to use his leg skills. Killer seems much more agile and crazy than Zoro. Killer appears to have built in face protection which is tricky for Sanji as he loves kicking people in the face. Equally the upper extent of durability for the raid suit is unknown but unlikely to be higher than Kaido’s scales so we know killer can damage Sanji.
I think I’ll have to give it to Killer for now.

Reactions: Like 2


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