# Gaara vs. Aang



## Wan (Nov 2, 2012)

Round 1: Aang vs part 1 Gaara
Round 2: Aang vs current Gaara

Battlefield: Chameleon Bay



Fight! Who is more powerful, and who wins?  (may not necessarily be the same answer).

Edit: By request, speed is equalized.


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## Wasabifold (Nov 2, 2012)

People are gonna come to this thread and say by powerscaling Gaara(or his sand) should be Mach *insert number here* from doing *insert reasoning here* and say he blitzes.

Equalize this speed for me bro. NOW.


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 2, 2012)

Sand Coffin GG.


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## Wan (Nov 2, 2012)

Wasabifold said:


> People are gonna come to this thread and say by powerscaling Gaara(or his sand) should be Mach *insert number here* from doing *insert reasoning here* and say he blitzes.
> 
> Equalize this speed for me bro. NOW.



Done.



Onomatopoeia said:


> Sand Coffin GG.



You serious?  I mean, there are arguments that can be made for Gaara winning...a simple sand coffin isn't one of them.


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## Expelsword (Nov 2, 2012)

AS Aang may MAY beat Part 1 Gaara, I dunno, but PTS Gaara blitzes him before he can put up any sort of defensive sphere.


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## Wan (Nov 2, 2012)

Wasabifold had me ninja your speedblitz claim.


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## Expelsword (Nov 2, 2012)

Part 2 Gaara's capacity is still way over Aang's. Didn't he like, sink something huge into the desert?


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## Imagine (Nov 2, 2012)

Didn't PT 1 Gaara have a supersonic sand shuriken feat? 


PT 2 Gaara's sand blitzes though.


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## Wasabifold (Nov 2, 2012)

See bro? Blitz is all you gonna here. Unfortunately,. equalizing speed doesn't equalize attack speed, when referring to speed of projectile attacks and what not. Aang is gonna lose this anyways based on this argument.


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## OS (Nov 2, 2012)

Didn't Aang win this last time?


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## Plague (Nov 2, 2012)

Can't Gaara fire out Sand bullets? That actually move that fast. I think Gaara should take this since his basic ninja techniques get him through most avatar characters. 

Substitution Jutsu + Kunai to the Neck = Dead Aang

EDIT: Okay, maybe it won't be that easy, but you get the idea.


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## Luna (Nov 2, 2012)

Gaara probably takes this.


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## Jouten (Nov 2, 2012)

Can Aang bend sand? Only some earthbender bend sand, but if Aang can do it what will Gaara do against him? In Avatar state Aang should take this, though I doubt that Gaara would would let him meditate during battle...


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## Plague (Nov 2, 2012)

Jouten said:


> Can Aang bend sand? Only some earthbender bend sand, but if Aang can do it what will Gaara do against him? In Avatar state Aang should take this, though I doubt that Gaara would would let him meditate during battle...



Gaara doesn't even need to use sand. Basic ninja arts should win it for him. Can't bend a kunai lol.

Plus even if Aang could bend sand, he'd have to focus on it, and Gaara could just attack him with it from another angle.


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## Wan (Nov 3, 2012)

Jouten said:


> Can Aang bend sand? Only some earthbender bend sand, but if Aang can do it what will Gaara do against him? In Avatar state Aang should take this, though I doubt that Gaara would would let him meditate during battle...



Yes Aang can bend sand; it's just another form of earth.



Rosuto_and_Meshi said:


> Gaara doesn't even need to use sand. Basic ninja arts should win it for him. Can't bend a kunai lol.
> 
> Plus even if Aang could bend sand, he'd have to focus on it, and Gaara could just attack him with it from another angle.



Why does Aang need to bend kunai when a simple air shield can deflect it?  You've got to be joking if you think standard ninja techniques would be enough to beat Aang.  Come on now, make a real argument.


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## Expelsword (Nov 3, 2012)

Aang is SLOOOOOOOOOOOW.


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## Wan (Nov 3, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> Aang is SLOOOOOOOOOOOW.



Well he does have a supersonic reaction feat.  But either way speed is equalized.  This goes for the sand as well; it's roughly equalized to the speed of Aang's earthbending.


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## Plague (Nov 3, 2012)

Sand Ocean, Sand Coffin, Shukaku Air Drill Bullet, Sand Bullet, Sand Waterfall either way, GG Aang. 

Nerfing Naruto characters just so they can fight weak ass Avatar chars is plain annoying and overdone.  

I've never seen Aang bend sand, and even if he does, I doubt he'd be able to block it all considering it takes up roughly 2-500ft. Most I've seen is Bumi change 20 feet of stone to sand. 

If Gaaras sand can break bones and level forests, then I'm sure it can kill Aang.

While Aang is waving around his arms to control the sand, the second or third waves he couldn't, tear his legs off. gg


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## Wan (Nov 3, 2012)

Aang should be able to bend an island's worth of sand.  Avatar Kyoshi moved an island using the Avatar State, cutting down to the earth's mantle, and the Avatar State gives Aang the energy, skills and knowledge of past Avatars.  Aang has his own feat of making a large earth chasm around the city of Yu Dao.


*Spoiler*: __ 









There's also the details that Aang can just fly away to escape the sand, and his air shield should give him a moment to counter the sand if Gaara does manage to grab him.

Aang isn't just going to be on the defensive.  The very sand Gaara uses can be turned against him by Aang.


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## Expelsword (Nov 3, 2012)

We have no idea if Aang would be able to bend Gaara's sand anyway, it has his chakra in it.


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## Plague (Nov 3, 2012)

^ That and I don't think he'll be able to do it fast enough if Gaara just decides to Sand Bullet. Their speed may be equal, but their attack speeds shouldn't be. Unless you're nerfing that too.


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## Wan (Nov 3, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> We have no idea if Aang would be able to bend Gaara's sand anyway, it has his chakra in it.



Why would that make a difference?  That's how Gaara cobtrols the sand, but it would still come down to his amount of power vs Aang's.



Rosuto_and_Meshi said:


> ^ That and I don't think he'll be able to do it fast enough if Gaara just decides to Sand Bullet. Their speed may be equal, but their attack speeds shouldn't be. Unless you're nerfing that too.



Well how fast is Sand Bullet, and what's its destructive capacity?


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## Plague (Nov 3, 2012)

Sand Bullets ranges from enough strength to K.O. to enough to tear through someone (like a real person)

Even if Aang could make an airshield, he'd get hit before it'd make a difference.


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## Expelsword (Nov 3, 2012)

Gaara's Chakra should be much higher than Aang's endurance.


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## Wan (Nov 3, 2012)

Rosuto_and_Meshi said:


> Sand Bullets ranges from enough strength to K.O. to enough to tear through someone (like a real person)
> 
> Even if Aang could make an airshield, he'd get hit before it'd make a difference.



Doesn't sound like it would pierce Aang's airshield easily.  Aang has his own rock bullet attack, btw.  And how would Gaara hit Aang before he makes an air shield?  Even if the speed of such attacks remains the same, Gaara's reaction times are equalized with Aang's.



Expelsword said:


> Gaara's Chakra should be much higher than Aang's endurance.



Really?  IIRC it's Naruto ninja who have the weakness of a strict limit of chakra.  There's no such characteristic to bending or the Avatar State.  If you're going to claim Gaara would outlast Aang, and that this would matter in the fight, you need to back it up.


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## Qinglong (Nov 3, 2012)

Reaction times aren't equalized last I checked

tbf I remember little since the war arc began since it's been draging on for so long

Gaara's sand was crushing kimimmaro's hardened bones iirc (not sure if they're all steel or above hardness), he said he had to make extra plates to defend against it and he still took damage from the attack


EDIT: Took a look at older threads. No consensus reached on Avatar characters controlling chakra enhanced elemental attacks. February this year there was a ban for awhile on naruto vs avatar threads, it's probably been lifted. Speed equal consensus was he has a good shot against Gaara in neutral setting. Another thread consensus was Gaara wins with enough sand and Aang wins without, but I can't find it.


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## Wan (Nov 3, 2012)

> Edit: By request, speed is equalized.



Do I really have to specifically say reaction speeds?


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## Qinglong (Nov 3, 2012)

Yes, you do, because that is Red Hero level


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## Expelsword (Nov 3, 2012)

By equalizing so much, you only prove that Gaara destroys him.


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## Wan (Nov 3, 2012)

By the same token, if you keep bringing up speed when I ruled it out, are you conceding that Aang destroys Gaara if Gaara doesn't have a speed advantage?


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## Qinglong (Nov 3, 2012)

This match done earlier this year:


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## Expelsword (Nov 3, 2012)

Oman said:


> By the same token, if you keep bringing up speed when I ruled it out, are you conceding that Aang destroys Gaara if Gaara doesn't have a speed advantage?



Did you equalize projectile speed, too?


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## Wan (Nov 3, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> Did you equalize projectile speed, too?



No.  That makes about as much sense as equalizing a bullet. The time it takes for a person to do a technique, though, is equalized.


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## Expelsword (Nov 3, 2012)

Gaara takes 0 time to use sand shield


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## Plague (Nov 3, 2012)

Oman said:


> No.  That makes about as much sense as equalizing a bullet. The time it takes for a person to do a technique, though, is equalized.



Then Gaara wins both.


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## Expelsword (Nov 4, 2012)

Aang must be in the Avatar State to win, and by the time he enters it, Gaara blitzes with Sand Shuriken.


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## Wan (Nov 4, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> Gaara takes 0 time to use sand shield



I hope you're being facetious.  But regardless of the time it takes to use sand shield, that's irrelevant to whether or not Aang can break through it.



Rosuto_and_Meshi said:


> Then Gaara wins both.



Why?


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## Expelsword (Nov 4, 2012)

Oman said:


> I hope you're being facetious.  But regardless of the time it takes to use sand shield, that's irrelevant to whether or not Aang can break through it.



I was, but he wins for reasons above.


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## Wan (Nov 4, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> I was, but he wins for reasons above.



So, "Gaara wins if Aang is not allowed to use his full power"?  That's a cop-out, and you're continuing to act like speed isn't equalized.  The shuriken may be fast but not the time it takes for Gaara to use it.


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## Expelsword (Nov 4, 2012)

It should take about the time it takes for Aang to get to AS.


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## Qinglong (Nov 4, 2012)

Gaara doesn't take a lot of time to do anything short of Quicksand in the Style of a Waterfall, one of the few moves he actually used handseals for


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## Wan (Nov 4, 2012)

If you _really_ want to get technical with this "quick on the draw" argument,  Aang can quickly pull an earth shell around him -- the one that was able to withstand multiple sustained blasts from comet powered Ozai -- and use that to buy at least a few extra seconds in order to activate the Avatar State.


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## Qinglong (Nov 4, 2012)

And Gaara made a sand clone and switched himself with it in the split second gated Lee winced in pain during his assault on him during the chuunin exam to the point Kakashi and I think Gai were the only ones who saw him do it.


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## Foxve (Nov 4, 2012)

Any version of gaara can take this. Older gaara due to skill and part one gaara more often then not for the same reason but mostly due the fact that he has the shakaku (one-tails). I hope this is open later today so I can debate it more if someone else has an argument for why gaara loses..........


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## Saitomaru (Nov 4, 2012)

As others have said any thread that requires one character to be nerfed this much shouldn't be made in the first place. All this has shown us is that the only way Aang wins is if you slow Gaara down in every aspect AND assume that Aang can control Gaara's sand. This thread is bad (not the worst I've seen but still) and I wish people would stop pitting Avatar characters against Naruto characters, the Avatarverse just isn't powerful/fast/hax enough to really compete.


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## Wan (Nov 4, 2012)

Speed equalizing is not some new unfair thing, and I didn't equalize all attacks (there's still no response to my rock shell suggestion).  And what do you mean "assume that Aang can control Gaara's sand"?  That's an argument, not an OP condition.  Feel free to argue against it (and be shown to be wrong).

I agree in general that Avatar characters can't compete with Naruto characters; the thing is, no other Avatar character can compete with Aang in the Avatar State either.  And I'm pretty sure most Naruto characters don't have the sheer power to move an island with several mountains on it.


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## Expelsword (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> I agree in general that Avatar characters can't compete with Naruto characters; the thing is, no other Avatar character can compete with Aang in the Avatar State either.  And I'm pretty sure most Naruto characters don't have the sheer power to move an island with several mountains on it.



They are just too much faster. And Rasenshuriken pretty much beats every feat Aang has in, and out, of the AS.


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Yes, but when it comes to power and control the gap isn't so wide.  And it's sort of telling that you pick a feat from Naruto, not Gaara, as something that beats "every feat Aang has".

Is anyone going to make an actual argument for why Gaara wins?


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## Foxve (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> Speed equalizing is not some new unfair thing, and I didn't equalize all attacks (*there's still no response to my rock shell suggestion*).  And what do you mean "assume that Aang can control Gaara's sand"?  That's an argument, not an OP condition.  Feel free to argue against it (and be shown to be wrong).
> 
> I agree in general that Avatar characters can't compete with Naruto characters; the thing is, no other Avatar character can compete with Aang in the Avatar State either.  And I'm pretty sure most Naruto characters don't have the sheer power to move an island with several mountains on it.



Even if he makes a rock shell gaara's sand bullets are still strong enough to turn it to swiss (that i'd matter as gaara's sand attacks should easily be faster than aang can even process a thought) . 

Gaara and most characters from Narutoverse are just too strong and fast for the ones form Avatarverse. Gaara would kill Aang in avatar state as well.


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Foxve said:


> Even if he makes a rock shell gaara's sand bullets are still strong enough to turn it to swiss (that i'd matter as gaara's sand attacks should easily be faster than aang can even process a thought) .
> 
> Gaara and most characters from Narutoverse are just too strong and fast for the ones form Avatarverse. Gaara would kill Aang in avatar state as well.



How so?  As I said, Aang's earth shell was strong enough to withstand multiple sustained fireblasts from Ozai.  What's the destructive capacity of Gaara's sand bullets?  And the time to use techniques is equalized.  Stop using speed as an excuse to avoid actually arguing.  Just what can Gaara do that Aang can't counter in the Avatar State?


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## Foxve (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> How so?  As I said, Aang's earth shell was strong enough to withstand multiple sustained fireblasts from Ozai.  What's the destructive capacity of Gaara's sand bullets?  And the time to use techniques is equalized.  Stop using speed as an excuse to avoid actually arguing.  Just what can Gaara do that Aang can't counter in the Avatar State?



Pretty sure gaara's sand bullets can pierce rock at this point. And when the speed gap is so wide that the opposition doesn't even have time to think, then speed is going to be the a bigass factor in the fight not an excuse......


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## Expelsword (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> Yes, but when it comes to power and control the gap isn't so wide.  And it's sort of telling that you pick a feat from Naruto, not Gaara, as something that beats "every feat Aang has".
> 
> Is anyone going to make an actual argument for why Gaara wins?



I picked Naruto because it was an Air feat.
Gaara MURDERS Toph's feats.


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Foxve said:


> Pretty sure gaara's sand bullets can pierce rock at this point. And when the speed gap is so wide that the opposition doesn't even have time to think, then speed is going to be the a bigass factor in the fight not an excuse......



Yes, and so can Ozai's fireblasts. It's an excuse when it was specifically ruled out in the OP yet you keep bringing it up.



Expelsword said:


> I picked Naruto because it was an Air feat.
> Gaara MURDERS Toph's feats.



And?  Neither Naruto nor Toph are in this fight.


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## Foxve (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> Yes, and so can Ozai's fireblasts. It's an excuse when it was specifically ruled out in the OP yet you keep bringing it up.



yeah no. just one sand bullet would go through the rock barrier where as it took multiple blasts from Ozai to shatter it. Gaara's is just a much smaller and more concentrated piercing attack.

And when speed is equalized, that gos for *movement only* unless specified by the OP. And if you actully equalize attack speed and, of all thing's, *reaction speed*, then no ones even going to take this fight seriously and write it off as a victory for the one that got massively gimped. In this case Gaara.....


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Foxve said:


> yeah no. just one sand bullet would go through the rock barrier where as it took multiple blasts from Ozai to shatter it. Gaara's is just a much smaller and more concentrated piercing attack.



Indeed, Ozai took multiple blasts to shatter it while he had easily broken through rock walls with single blasts before.  Aang was reinforcing the sphere.  So I ask again: what is a sand bullet capable of?  It may be that many sand bullets could penetrate the shell, but that doesn't matter; Aang only needs a momentary reprieve within the shell in order to activate the Avatar State, in which case Gaara has a whole host of other problems to worry about than piercing a rock shell.



> And when speed is equalized, that gos for *movement only* unless specified by the OP. And if you actully equalize attack speed and, of all thing's, *reaction speed*, then no ones even going to take this fight seriously and write it off as a victory for the one that got massively gimped. In this case Gaara.....



Speed is equalized, period.  I don't know why we're actually arguing about this.  Move on.


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## Foxve (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> Indeed, Ozai took multiple blasts to shatter it while he had easily broken through rock walls with single blasts before.  Aang was reinforcing the sphere.  So I ask again: what is a sand bullet capable of?  It may be that many sand bullets could penetrate the shell, but that doesn't matter; Aang only needs a momentary reprieve within the shell in order to activate the Avatar State, in which case Gaara has a whole host of other problems to worry about than piercing a rock shell.



Just relooked it up and it looks like you are right about it needing to be more than one to shatter the rock sheild. It's is going to take multiple sand bullets to go through the rock barrier seeing as it was only shown to knock enemies unconscious and rip the sides of trees(it's obviously stronger than that but whatever). 

Not that it matters as it'll still knock out/kill aang before he processes a thought.



> Speed is equalized, period.  I don't know why we're actually arguing about this.  Move on.



Ok then, so are you saying every kind of speed is equlized?


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

> Ok then, so are you saying every kind of speed is equlized?



Not necessarily.  Just the OBD standard for equalizing speed, ie whatever it takes to remove "lol speedblitz", "kill him before he processes a thought", etc., as arguments.


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 5, 2012)

OBD standard is movement. Gaara doesn't rely on movement anyway, so speed equal is pointless unless you specify all speed.

And if you have to change the rules and/or give Aang a massive advantage just so he can win, that's a sure sign that this is a stomp, known in the common parlance as a bad thread (unless it's funny, like Dark Schneider vs Sasuke).


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## Foxve (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> Not necessarily.  Just the OBD standard for equalizing speed, ie whatever it takes to remove "lol speedblitz", "kill him before he processes a thought", etc., as arguments.



Considering that gaara can manipulate sand to even faster speeds than himself (which is already fast enough to be untraceable to aang's eyes), you can't stop an "lol blitz" scenario without equalizing the speed of his sand and considering their both BL, gaara wouldn't stand a chance in hell as all he can do is manipulate sand while aang can manipulate everything else *including* sand. 

In other words like i said before, everyone will say gaara still wins. Even though in that scenario Aang would take it in a literally GODLY curpstomp.

This is just a bad match in general Oman......


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Onomatopoeia said:


> OBD standard is movement. Gaara doesn't rely on movement anyway, so speed equal is pointless unless you specify all speed.
> 
> This is bad thread and you should feel bad for making it.



Come on now, this is not that bad of a stomp.  I would argue it's not a stomp at all. Edit:  I'm not changing fighting conditions except by request, and I'm not changing it to give Aang "a huge advantage", just leveling the field so to speak.  If there is an advantage after that it's one that Aang naturally has.

Really.  If Aang manages to go into the Avatar State -- which I argue that using a rock shell would give him time to do -- he has more raw power than Gaara.  Aang could strip away Gaara's defenses with earthbending and then hit him with a potent waterbending or firebending attack.  His air shield could keep Gaara's smaller sand attacks at bay, while Aang could brush aside larger attacks with earthbending.  And he would stay flying, out of easy range for much of Gaara's attacks.  If Gaara takes flight himself, Aang could actually target the sand that keeps Gaara up, making him fall and leaving him off balance for further attacks.

I said earlier that the sand's movement is roughly equalized with how fast Aang can move earth.  This doesn't apply to specifically fast techniques like sand bullets or Aang's earth bullets, just to general sand and earth movement.  That doesn't seem reasonable?  And I should mention that Aang does have his own supersonic reaction feat.


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## Foxve (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> Come on now, this is not that bad of a stomp.  I would argue it's not a stomp at all. Edit:  I'm not changing fighting conditions except by request, and I'm not changing it to give Aang "a huge advantage", just leveling the field so to speak.  If there is an advantage after that it's one that Aang naturally has.
> 
> Really.  If Aang manages to go into the Avatar State -- which I argue that using a rock shell would give him time to do -- he has more raw power than Gaara.  Aang could strip away Gaara's defenses with earthbending and then hit him with a potent waterbending or firebending attack.  His air shield could keep Gaara's smaller sand attacks at bay, while Aang could brush aside larger attacks with earthbending.  And he would stay flying, out of easy range for much of Gaara's attacks.  If Gaara takes flight himself, Aang could actually target the sand that keeps Gaara up, making him fall and leaving him off balance for further attacks.
> 
> I said earlier that the sand's movement is roughly equalized with how fast Aang can move earth.  This doesn't apply to specifically fast techniques like sand bullets or Aang's earth bullets, just to general sand and earth movement.  That doesn't seem reasonable?  And I should mention that Aang does have his own supersonic reaction feat.



Gaara has reaction speed in the hypersonic+ range but if you equalized attack speed then Aang still takes it in a massive curpstomp since, as i've already said, he can manipulate everything else on the battlefield *including *sand. 

This is a bad match. You can't make it fair in anyway. Speed is really that much of a difference (especially against someone who can move every element on the planet ).


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## Expelsword (Nov 5, 2012)

Doesn't Aang's supersonic reaction come from aimdodging CM's "laser"?
Gaara outruns it instead, or if he feels inclined, uses a sand shield to tank it.

There's no comparison between durability and speed of Naruto vs. Avatar.


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## Saitomaru (Nov 5, 2012)

Wait wait wait, since when was it decided that Aang could bend sand that has Gaara's chakra in it? I don't remember anyone agreeing on that point in the last thread that featured Gaara vs an Avatar character. I also don't remember Aang controlling nearly as much sand as Gaara does. I'm not hiding behind speed as a way of avoiding an argument, its just that speed IS a factor and equalizing speed does not equate to everything speed related being the same. If that is what you meant by speed equal then this is getting ridiculous. I should also point out that Gaara has superior durability/protection and an island moving feat isn't really useful as an attack unless you can prove that he can lift said island and drop it on Gaara. I feel that I should also point out that Gaara's sand can grind up "rock".


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Gaara's chakra is just how Gaara controls his sand; why would that make it immune to Aang influencing it with earthbending?  It should just come down to who has more raw power and control over earth; the island moving feat indicates that Aang has more power.

Edit:



Expelsword said:


> Doesn't Aang's supersonic reaction come from aimdodging CM's "laser"?
> Gaara outruns it instead, or if he feels inclined, uses a sand shield to tank it.
> 
> There's no comparison between durability and speed of Naruto vs. Avatar.



No, it comes from reacting to the explosion from Combustion Man's beam as it happens.


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## Expelsword (Nov 5, 2012)

When did Aang move an island?


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## Qinglong (Nov 5, 2012)

Never, Avatar Kyoshi did and the Avatar has the power of past Avatars according to Roku


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## Saitomaru (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> Gaara's chakra is just how Gaara controls his sand; why would that make it immune to Aang influencing it with earthbending?  It should just come down to who has more raw power and control over earth; the island moving feat indicates that Aang has more power.



Since when does raw power equate to superior control? Gaara has shown complete control over his sand, he uses it for both offense and defense. Aang has rarely controlled sand and IIRC when he did it was nothing impressive. Moving an island (I'm assuming you guys are correct in your claims that it is island sized) means that Aang can control large quantities of earth at once, I'm not sure that this is the same for sand since the Avatar series has made it obvious that controlling one facet of an element is not the same as controlling another. I should also point out that Gaara is no slouch in terms of raw power himself.


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Saitomaru said:


> Since when does raw power equate to superior control? Gaara has shown complete control over his sand, he uses it for both offense and defense. Aang has rarely controlled sand and IIRC when he did it was nothing impressive. Moving an island (I'm assuming you guys are correct in your claims that it is island sized) means that Aang can control large quantities of earth at once, I'm not sure that this is the same for sand since the Avatar series has made it obvious that controlling one facet of an element is not the same as controlling another. I should also point out that Gaara is no slouch in terms of raw power himself.



Power is _how_ the sand is controlled.  If Gaara runs out of chakra, he loses control over sand.  Just saying he keeps control no matter the power of his opponent is a no-limits fallacy.  And sand is earth; what do you mean by "Avatar has made it obvious that controlling one facet of an element is not the same as controlling another".  Sand is just earth.


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## Expelsword (Nov 5, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> Never, Avatar Kyoshi did and the Avatar has the power of past Avatars according to Roku



I'm not sure if that makes any sense. If he really had the power of a thousand master benders, shouldn't he be way, way above what he's shown?



Oman said:


> And sand is earth; what do you mean by "Avatar has made it obvious that controlling one facet of an element is not the same as controlling another".  Sand is just earth.



Toph had SERIOUS trouble bending sand.


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> I'm not sure if that makes any sense. If he really had the power of a thousand master benders, shouldn't he be way, way above what he's shown?



Kyoshi used the Avatar State herself for that feat, to be specific.  Roku's exact words are, "The Avatar State is a defense mechanism designed to give you the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars.  The glow is the combination of all your past lives focusing their energy through your body."


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## Expelsword (Nov 5, 2012)

Skills and knowledge...
I'd be willing to guess that Kyoshi was stronger than Aang, so her feats do not precisely carry to Aang that way.


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## Saitomaru (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> Power is _how_ the sand is controlled.  If Gaara runs out of chakra, he loses control over sand.  Just saying he keeps control no matter the power of his opponent is a no-limits fallacy.  And sand is earth; what do you mean by "Avatar has made it obvious that controlling one facet of an element is not the same as controlling another".  Sand is just earth.



I'm not saying he can't run out of steam but he has shown the capacity to fight with huge quantities of sand for long periods of time without tiring. In the Avatar series controlling sand was difficult for Toph, not all earthbenders can control metal, not all firebenders can use lightning, not all waterbenders can control blood or water that is within plants. Now do you understand? I have also NEVER seen Gaara lose control of his sand, even when he was on the ground severely injured he could still control his sand. I'm not saying he has no limit, its just really high.



Oman said:


> Kyoshi used the Avatar State herself for that feat, to be specific.  Roku's exact words are, "The Avatar State is a defense mechanism designed to give you the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars.  The glow is the combination of all your past lives focusing their energy through your body."





Expelsword said:


> Skills and knowledge...
> I'd be willing to guess that Kyoshi was stronger than Aang, so her feats do not precisely carry to Aang that way.



I always looked at this as them having the knowledge of each previous Avatar, NOT the power of all of them combined. I never liked how everyone assumed that it meant just because one person did it means Aang and Korra can too. If Aang was a metalbender than I could understand someone saying Korra could metalbend but if Aang could toss around a moon I would be completely against just assuming Korra could too with no proof to back it up. Your quote doesn't even say anything about having their raw power either.


----------



## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Toph's problem with sand had to do with her sense, not with her ability to actually control it.  This is what she says about it (from episode 210 "The Library"): 

"Of course, I'm more comfortable on the ground, where I can see. Well, I don't see the way you do. I feel the vibration in the ground with my feet,  but this sand is so loose and shifty, it makes everything look fuzzy."

She has no problem bending the same amount of sand as she would earth, she just can't bend it accurately when she's standing on sand (which is the only situation she has ever bent sand).


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## Saitomaru (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> -snip-



First, the island having sand on it does not mean she controlled all of that sand as well. For all we know all she did was control some of the earth and just move the rest along with it. You said that sand isn't its own unique thing but then my question is why does it have its own name i.e- Sandbenders are called Sandbenders because they bend sand.



> As for strength somehow correlating to bending power, let me remind you that one of the best earthbenders in the Avatar world happens to be a scrawny 12 year old girl.  Physical strength has little to do with bending power.



I was the one saying the raw power didn't correlate to bending power, you're the one who was making it seem like there was a correlation between them.


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Saitomaru said:


> First, the island having sand on it does not mean she controlled all of that sand as well. For all we know all she did was control some of the earth and just move the rest along with it. You said that sand isn't its own unique thing but then my question is why does it have its own name i.e- Sandbenders are called Sandbenders because they bend sand.



It's just a name.  The Foggy Swamp tribe are called swampbenders; does that mean they're the only people capable of bending swamp water?  Of course not.  There is no detail about sand that indicates it requires learning a specific skill to bend, as with metal or lightning.  I posted a video with Toph bending sand -- not accurately, due to her sense problem, but still bending sand.  Sand = earth in terms of controlling it, period.



> I was the one saying the raw power didn't correlate to bending power, you're the one who was making it seem like there was a correlation between them.



That comment was more directed to the last thing Expelsword said, specifically to the implication that Kyoshi is physically stronger than Aang therefore she should have more power in bending.  Physical strength doesn't role over to bending power.


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## Saitomaru (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> It's just a name.  The Foggy Swamp tribe are called swampbenders; does that mean they're the only people capable of bending swamp water?  Of course not.



They do have someone who can bend the water in plants which is apparently NOT something everyone can do. Also, neither Aang nor Toph has ever controlled nearly as much sand as Gaara slings around casually.



> That comment was more directed to the last thing Expelsword said, specifically to the implication that Kyoshi is physically stronger than Aang therefore she should have more power in bending.  Physical strength doesn't role over to bending power.



I thought he/she/it was just saying that Kyoshi was stronger in terms of bending than Aang. If each Avatar was the combination of every past avatar in terms of strength then Aang and Korra should own the entire verse with a casual wave of their hand.


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Saitomaru said:


> They do have someone who can bend the water in plants which is apparently NOT something everyone can do.



Yes, one person, but that's a technique associated with that one person and not the swampbender tribe in general.  Either way, there's nothing physically preventing the person from controlling plants or making it difficult if they try, as there is with lightning, metalbending, or bloodbending.  Katara quickly picks up on extracting water from plants just after Hama tells her that it's possible.  And again, I posted a video of Toph bending sand without any sort of training for it.  It's not some special substance that needs training to bend; it's just earth.



> I thought he/she/it was just saying that Kyoshi was stronger in terms of bending than Aang. If each Avatar was the combination of every past avatar in terms of strength then Aang and Korra should own the entire verse with a casual wave of their hand.



She might be, though we've hardly seen non-Avatar State feats from Kyoshi.  Really though, isn't the power we have seen demonstrated in the Avatar State enough to casually solo the verse already?  If you combine the power of all the past Avatars, then yeah, you get the power to move islands.  Kyoshi is an example of this as the feat is done with the Avatar State. The same energy flows through Aang with the Avatar State as it did Kyoshi, if not a little more thanks to Roku.


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## Expelsword (Nov 5, 2012)

First of all, I am a male.
Secondly, I did mean Kyoshi as a more powerful (or rather better) Bender vs. Aang, though she's probably stronger than he is physically, too.

There are, I believe, thousands of Avatars. If we assume that each is even half as strong as Roku, adding them together, he should have been able to lift that volcano clean out of the earth.

I really kind of view the whole island moving feat as an outlier, especially since she did it with just air, but how big was it? It may have been significantly less than a true island.


----------



## Saitomaru (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> Yes, one person, but that's a technique associated with that one person and not the swampbender tribe in general.  Either way, there's nothing physically preventing the person from controlling plants or making it difficult if they try, as there is with lightning, metalbending, or bloodbending.  Katara quickly picks up on extracting water from plants just after Hama tells her that it's possible.  And again, I posted a video of Toph bending sand without any sort of training for it.  It's not some special substance that needs training to bend; it's just earth.



It has been made very obvious that Katara was NOT a normal waterbender. She was able to bloodbend which was supposed to be a rare technique that few could do and even then only when under the effects of the full moon. You can't just assume that because one person can control something means another bender can too. I'm not really arguing that Aang can't control sand because I think he did in the show. But I am against this thought that he can usurp Gaara's control over his sand AND control the amount of sand Gaara controls casually. If Gaara's attack's speed isn't equalized with Aang's then Gaara just kills Aang with some of his sand before Aang can react. I am still kind of confused how Gaara is supposed to control his sand at his usual speed if you're also trying to equalize Gaara's reaction speed too. It would mean Gaara's attacks are faster than he himself can perceive.



> She might be, though we've hardly seen non-Avatar State feats from Kyoshi.  Really though, isn't the power we have seen demonstrated in the Avatar State enough to casually solo the verse already?  If you combine the power of all the past Avatars, then yeah, you get the power to move islands.  Kyoshi is an example of this as the feat is done with the Avatar State. The same energy flows through Aang with the Avatar State as it did Kyoshi, if not a little more thanks to Roku.



And as I've stated not only does moving an island not really translate into any useful attack feat it also can't really be assumed that Aang can do it. Hell, we don't even know if Kyoshi was controlling every bit of earth on that island or if she was simply controlling the bottom part of it while she moved it in the same way I move my food from one place to another by carrying the plate not the food itself. Aang might be able to solo his verse but I'm hesitant about whether he could do it casually since the verse has bloodbenders.



> *First of all, I am a male.*
> Secondly, I did mean Kyoshi as a more powerful (or rather better) Bender vs. Aang, though she's probably stronger than he is physically, too.



I figured it was safer not to assume the status of gender one way or the other.


----------



## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> First of all, I am a male.
> Secondly, I did mean Kyoshi as a more powerful (or rather better) Bender vs. Aang, though she's probably stronger than he is physically, too.



Ok, so what is the evidence for Kyoshi being a more powerful bender than Aang outside of using the Avatar State?



Saitomaru said:


> It has been made very obvious that Katara was NOT a normal waterbender. She was able to bloodbend which was supposed to be a rare technique that few could do and even then only when under the effects of the full moon. You can't just assume that because one person can control something means another bender can too. I'm not really arguing that Aang can't control sand because I think he did in the show. But I am against this thought that he can usurp Gaara's control over his sand AND control the amount of sand Gaara controls casually. If Gaara's attack's speed isn't equalized with Aang's then Gaara just kills Aang with some of his sand before Aang can react. I am still kind of confused how Gaara is supposed to control his sand at his usual speed if you're also trying to equalize Gaara's reaction speed too. It would mean Gaara's attacks are faster than he himself can perceive.



Sure, Katara is not a normal waterbender.  But the only situations where benders are not able to bend material like normal is when it's explained, along with explaining what it takes to do it.  With lightning, it's entirely different than fire and involves manipulating ying and yang energy.  With metal, you have to be able to sense the particles in the metal before you can bend them.  With bloodbending, you need to have the extra oomph the full moon gives (usually).  Sandbending has no such stated conditions, nor does plantbending for that matter (though having a flexible material like vines or seaweed seems to help).  You seem to be trying to separate controlling sand through earthbending and controlling earth in general through earthbending and then acting like feats for the latter don't count for the former.  There's simply no evidence for such a dichotomy.



> And as I've stated not only does moving an island not really translate into any useful attack feat it also can't really be assumed that Aang can do it. Hell, we don't even know if Kyoshi was controlling every bit of earth on that island or if she was simply controlling the bottom part of it while she moved it in the same way I move my food from one place to another by carrying the plate not the food itself. Aang might be able to solo his verse but I'm hesitant about whether he could do it casually since the verse has bloodbenders.



Why does it need to translate into a useful attack feat?  It still demonstrates his raw power to be greater than Gaara's, and Gaara mostly relies on raw power.  Aang has demonstrated the ability to resist bloodbending with the Avatar State against Yakone, btw.


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## Expelsword (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> Ok, so what is the evidence for Kyoshi being a more powerful bender than Aang outside of using the Avatar State?


Being not 12 and having more training time.


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## Saitomaru (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> -snip-



Not everything in avatar was explained, the whole chakra thing was left pretty vague. I have yet to see proof that normal waterbenders could control plants, Katara could suck them dry (she's not normal) and that fat guy could control them. That's it. I don't remember anyone else controlling plants. I'm not saying that its completely different but it isn't something that an average earthbender is just going to randomly do without practice and some trouble. As I have said Aang should be able to sandbend, as for controlling Gaara's sand... that's up for debate.



> Why does it need to translate into a useful attack feat?  It still demonstrates his raw power to be greater than Gaara's, and Gaara mostly relies on raw power.



No it doesn't all it shows is that Kyoshi can move an island through unspecified means. Yes we know earthbending was used but we do not know if every grain of sand and every pebble was under her control. See my food analogy, it demonstrates what I'm saying here. Gaara controls greater amounts of sand than Aang has ever shown to be able to and since his attacks are faster than Aang he should be able to tag Aang. Aang is a glass cannon so all it really takes is one hit. And as I have said, nothing has proven that Aang can usurp Gaara's control on his own sand. Now what is Aang supposed to do to Gaara? Has anyone given an example of an attack that Aang has that could not only hit Gaara but hurt him too.




> Aang has demonstrated the ability to resist bloodbending with the Avatar State against Yakone, btw.



Has he really? I must have missed that part. What kind of resistance are we talking about? A twitch or flat out ignoring it.



> Being not 12 and having more training time.



Technically he's older than Kyoshi...


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> Being not 12 and having more training time.



That's not really evidence.  Heck, for all we know Kyoshi was 20 at the time of the incident.  But if you want to get technical, the last time we see Aang in action is when he's 40 and presumably much more experienced than when he was 12.



Saitomaru said:


> Not everything in avatar was explained, the whole chakra thing was left pretty vague. I have yet to see proof that normal waterbenders could control plants, Katara could suck them dry (she's not normal) and that fat guy could control them. That's it. I don't remember anyone else controlling plants. I'm not saying that its completely different but it isn't something that an average earthbender is just going to randomly do without practice and some trouble. As I have said Aang should be able to sandbend, as for controlling Gaara's sand... that's up for debate.



There may be specific sandbending techniques that require training, like, oh, a sand cyclone or something.  Similarly, any waterbender should be able to influence the water in plants, but it takes practice to make the vine-monster-suit like Huu does.  As far as "average earthbender" goes, the sandbender tribes in the desert seem pretty average as far as power goes.  Toph was able to bend sand directly and harden sand without showing prior practice with it.  Aang doesn't need to know a complicated sand technique; simple massive pushes with earthbending should be all that's needed to defend against Gaara's sand or to try stripping away Gaara's defenses.  And when Gaara solidifies the sand to try crushing Aang or forming a defense, that just makes it that much easier for Aang to bend it.



> No it doesn't all it shows is that Kyoshi can move an island through unspecified means. Yes we know earthbending was used but we do not know if every grain of sand and every pebble was under her control. See my food analogy, it demonstrates what I'm saying here. Gaara controls greater amounts of sand than Aang has ever shown to be able to and since his attacks are faster than Aang he should be able to tag Aang. Aang is a glass cannon so all it really takes is one hit. And as I have said, nothing has proven that Aang can usurp Gaara's control on his own sand. Now what is Aang supposed to do to Gaara? Has anyone given an example of an attack that Aang has that could not only hit Gaara but hurt him too.



So you're saying Kyoshi could have used earthbending to focus on a smaller area of earth but still move a greater total mass than the earth she was directly influencing.  Wait, what?  How is this a negative?  If you put a large block of concrete on top of a smaller block of concrete and try moving it by pushing only the smaller lower block, does that make it easier to move the top block?  I don't see your point here.  Whatever the case, Occam's Razor would dictate that the explanation with the least assumptions is the preferred one, which would be Kyoshi directly moving the whole island with earthbending rather than moving the base which then moves the rest of the island.

Aang has an air shield which withstood crashing through several rock pillars at high speeds.  That should keep Gaara's quicker, smaller-scale attacks at bay and Aang doesn't even need to react to them because the shield is constant.  For slower, larger-scale attacks Aang can use earthbending to throw back the sand.  My argument hinges on the fact that Kyoshi's feat shows that Aang can move greater amounts of earth (sand) than Gaara.

(Aang does have a somewhat superhuman durability feat though, shown here: )

What can Aang do to Gaara?  He can start by pushing aside Gaara's sand defenses with the same earthbending force that made a large chasm around the city of Yu Dao.  With the sand pushed out of the way, he could do any number of things -- hit Gaara with an air blast that quickly stripped a rock pillar, several homing fireballs, water streams that could push through Ozai's fireblasts, or a rock bullet volley attack that destroy several rock pillars.  If Aang was in character though he would probably try closing the distance and energybending Gaara.  There's no way to tell who would come out on top if Aang used energybending on Gaara, but that would certainly be the end of the fight. 



> Has he really? I must have missed that part. What kind of resistance are we talking about? A twitch or flat out ignoring it.



Flat out ignoring it, as in Yakone had him in a bloodbending grip but Aang activated the Avatar State and shook off any control Yakone had.


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## Plague (Nov 5, 2012)

Fight starts, Gaara shoots a Sand Bullet at Aang. Aang moves his arms in an attempt to use some form of defense but isn't fast enough. 

gg

Why is this still being debated?


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Rosuto_and_Meshi said:


> Fight starts, Gaara shoots a Sand Bullet at Aang. Aang moves his arms in an attempt to use some form of defense but isn't fast enough.
> 
> gg
> 
> Why is this still being debated?



That proves about as much as saying a person with a pistol and a finger on the trigger could shoot Aang before he does anything.  Technically true?  Yes.  Does it prove the person with the pistol is more powerful or is a better fighter?  No.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> That proves about as much as saying a person with a pistol and a finger on the trigger could shoot Aang before he does anything.  Technically true?  Yes.  Does it prove the person with the pistol is more powerful or is a better fighter?  No.



We don't have to prove that. 

Aang dies.

Who cares if he's a more able fighter.

Also Gaara is sure as fuck more powerful than non-avatar state Aang.


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Endless said:


> We don't have to prove that.
> 
> Aang dies.
> 
> Who cares if he's a more able fighter.



Isn't that the point of the OBD?



> Also Gaara is sure as fuck more powerful than non-avatar state Aang.



Granted.  Your point?  That's like saying Avatar State Aang is more powerful than base Naruto.  It's true, but has no bearing on the result of a fight.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 5, 2012)

Riddle me this.

If a master swordsman fights a child with a gun (assuming his aim is good enough) the child will win. That doesn't make the child more powerful, as the adult obviously has greater ability pretty much everywhere. Neither is the child more skilled than the master swordsman who has spent years honing his craft to perfection. Yet the child still wins.

The crux of the issue is, the strength and skills of the warriors do not matter here. Just their ability to win.


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Endless said:


> Riddle me this.
> 
> If a master swordsman fights a child with a gun (assuming his aim is good enough) the child will win. That doesn't make the child more powerful, as the adult obviously has greater ability pretty much everywhere. Neither is the child more skilled than the master swordsman who has spent years honing his craft to perfection. Yet the child still wins.
> 
> The crux of the issue is, the strength and skills of the warriors do not matter here. Just their ability to win.



That's a boring approach to vs. fights.


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## igeku somrazunta (Nov 5, 2012)

Aang wins since hes not a shitty character  (unlike EVERY naruto character besides the old frog perv sincei got soem lulz from him.) 

on a OT sense. gaara wins. naruto is in a different league, sad as it is.


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## Expelsword (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> That's not really evidence.  Heck, for all we know Kyoshi was 20 at the time of the incident.  But if you want to get technical, the last time we see Aang in action is when he's 40 and presumably much more experienced than when he was 12.


So, do you want to use LoK Aang?
But to assume that Aang is as good as Avatars who got to recieve proper training and have years more experience is simply ridiculous.


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## Wan (Nov 5, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> So, do you want to use LoK Aang?
> But to assume that Aang is as good as Avatars who got to recieve proper training and have years more experience is simply ridiculous.



Sure.  I'm not making the assumption here though.  You are making the assumption that bending power outside the Avatar State determines what you can do with the Avatar State -- but that undermines the point of the Avatar State at all.  It's the same Avatar State -- the same skills and knowledge, the same energy being focused through the Avatar's body -- that Aang and Kyoshi use, with maybe a little extra for Aang.  Their normal skill and power is not involved.


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## Saitomaru (Nov 5, 2012)

Oman said:


> That's not really evidence.  Heck, for all we know Kyoshi was 20 at the time of the incident.  But if you want to get technical, the last time we see Aang in action is when he's 40 and presumably much more experienced than when he was 12.



Isn't directed at me.



> There may be specific sandbending techniques that require training, like, oh, a sand cyclone or something.  Similarly, any waterbender should be able to influence the water in plants, but it takes practice to make the vine-monster-suit like Huu does.  As far as "average earthbender" goes, the sandbender tribes in the desert seem pretty average as far as power goes.  Toph was able to bend sand directly and harden sand without showing prior practice with it.  Aang doesn't need to know a complicated sand technique; simple massive pushes with earthbending should be all that's needed to defend against Gaara's sand or to try stripping away Gaara's defenses.  And when Gaara solidifies the sand to try crushing Aang or forming a defense, that just makes it that much easier for Aang to bend it.



Please re-read what I said, I hate having to repeat myself just because some one missed something I typed. Toph is NOT an average bender (neither is katara) Toph is the same person who learned how to metalbend just cuz do not try to use her to back up a claim that other characters should be able to learn something quick. You have yet to prove that Aang can control Gaara's chakra infused sand whilst Gaara is controlling it. Gaara casually slings around larger quantities of sand than Aang has shown the ability to do. Gaara wouldn't need to harden his sand since his sand would kill Aang with no real trouble. What's the biggest hit that Aang's air shield has tanked?



> So you're saying Kyoshi could have used earthbending to focus on a smaller area of earth but still move a greater total mass than the earth she was directly influencing.  Wait, what?  How is this a negative?  If you put a large block of concrete on top of a smaller block of concrete and try moving it by pushing only the smaller lower block, does that make it easier to move the top block?  I don't see your point here.  Whatever the case, Occam's Razor would dictate that the explanation with the least assumptions is the preferred one, which would be Kyoshi directly moving the whole island with earthbending rather than moving the base which then moves the rest of the island.



It would mean that Kyoshi was not in direct control of every random pebble on the island. I'm pretty sure assuming Kyoshi was controlling every pebble and grain of sand is a bigger assumption than assuming it was something simpler (like just moving the base).



> Aang has an air shield which withstood crashing through several rock pillars at high speeds.  That should keep Gaara's quicker, smaller-scale attacks at bay and Aang doesn't even need to react to them because the shield is constant.  For slower, larger-scale attacks Aang can use earthbending to throw back the sand.  My argument hinges on the fact that Kyoshi's feat shows that Aang can move greater amounts of earth (sand) than Gaara.



So what you're saying is that Aang's air shield is weak as hell and can't hold up to Gaara's attacks? Good to know. Also, stop assuming Aang can usurp Gaara's control, that wasn't even agreed upon in the Toph v. Gaara debate.



> (Aang does have a somewhat superhuman durability feat though, shown here: )



superhuman isn't good enough to survive, sorry.



> What can Aang do to Gaara?  He can start by pushing aside Gaara's sand defenses with the same earthbending force that made a large chasm around the city of Yu Dao.



Prove Aang can usurp Gaara's control. Hell, prove that he can react to Gaara's attacks.



> With the sand pushed out of the way, he could do any number of things --



See above.



> ...hit Gaara with an air blast that quickly stripped a rock pillar,



And that's supposed to do what to him?



> several homing fireballs,



Do these even get past his shield?



> water streams *that could push through Ozai's fireblasts*,



And that proves what? Fire isn't even solid, it shouldn't really be hard to "push" through it.



> or a rock bullet volley attack that destroy several rock pillars.







> If Aang was in character though he would probably try closing the distance and energybending Gaara.  There's no way to tell who would come out on top if Aang used energybending on Gaara, but that would certainly be the end of the fight.



Aang gets close, Aang gets crushed. gg



> Flat out ignoring it, as in Yakone had him in a bloodbending grip but Aang activated the Avatar State and shook off any control Yakone had.



That's interesting, I guess I did miss that part.


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## sonic546 (Nov 6, 2012)

Equalizing attack speed? Really?


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## Wan (Nov 6, 2012)

Saitomaru said:


> Please re-read what I said, I hate having to repeat myself just because some one missed something I typed. Toph is NOT an average bender (neither is katara) Toph is the same person who learned how to metalbend just cuz do not try to use her to back up a claim that other characters should be able to learn something quick. You have yet to prove that Aang can control Gaara's chakra infused sand whilst Gaara is controlling it. Gaara casually slings around larger quantities of sand than Aang has shown the ability to do. Gaara wouldn't need to harden his sand since his sand would kill Aang with no real trouble. What's the biggest hit that Aang's air shield has tanked?



And please don't leave out what _I_ said.  I noted that the sandbender tribes don't seem to have any particularly unusual talent or skill, yet they sandbend without problem.  It's never said "Oh, they are such powerful benders, because they can bend sand!" like in the case of lightning or bloodbending.  Toph, who had no prior experience with sand and as you pointed out has a specific problem with sand, was still able to move the same amount of sand as she would earth.  There are two separate points to the idea that sand is different or more difficult to bend than ordinary earth, and they are both false:

"Sand could require more power than the average earthbender to bend."  Since the sandbender tribes seem to be no more than average joe earthbenders who happen to live out in the desert, this is not plausible.

"Sand could require training and learned skill to bend."  While this may apply to specific techniques with sandbending, it does not apply to simply moving sand; Toph was able to move sand without learning any prior skill. Metalbending is not comparable because Toph had to be stuck in a box for a day and purposefully design the technique whereas she just seemed to sandbend without putting much thought into it.  The sandbender tribes are also evidence against this point; really, do these guys:



look like particularly skilled people?

Sand is earth, there is no dichotomy.  Your assumptions are false, and even if they were true, all they would do is show that sand is a little different to bend but not necessarily harder.  Where is it stated that sand is physically harder to bend than earth?

Earthbending feats apply to Aang which are far greater than Gaara's feats with moving sand; that is the evidence for Aang overpowering Gaara's control over sand.  To say that Gaara can retain control over his sand even though Aang is more powerful is unfounded and is a no-limits fallacy.

As for what Aang's shield can take, here:


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## Saitomaru (Nov 6, 2012)

Oman said:


> And please don't leave out what _I_ said.  I noted that the sandbender tribes don't seem to have any particularly unusual talent or skill, yet they sandbend without problem.  It's never said "Oh, they are such powerful benders, because they can bend sand!" like in the case of lightning or bloodbending.  Toph, who had no prior experience with sand and as you pointed out has a specific problem with sand, was still able to move the same amount of sand as she would earth.  There are two separate points to the idea that sand is different or more difficult to bend than ordinary earth, and they are both false:
> 
> "Sand could require more power than the average earthbender to bend."  Since the sandbender tribes seem to be no more than average joe earthbenders who happen to live out in the desert, this is not plausible.
> 
> ...



Since when do looks matter? The sandbenders survive and thrive in the desert, they learned to sandbend (most likely) out of necessity. If you want to go by looks Aang doesn't even look remotely threatening so I guess that means Aang loses to every other verse just because he looks about as threatening as any other bald kid would.



> Sand is earth, there is no dichotomy.  Your assumptions are false, and even if they were true, all they would do is show that sand is a little different to bend but not necessarily harder.  Where is it stated that sand is physically harder to bend than earth?



I never said its harder but it is more difficult for an average joe earthbender to just randomly bend it since it is nothing like regular earthbending and instead requires an air/water bending like style.



> Earthbending feats apply to Aang which are far greater than Gaara's feats with moving sand; that is the evidence for Aang overpowering Gaara's control over sand.  To say that Gaara can retain control over his sand even though Aang is more powerful is unfounded and is a no-limits fallacy.



Feats of moving some rock does not equate to usurping Gaara's control over his sand. Aang's earthbending feats are largely unimpressive his only impressive earthbending feats aren't even his own they belong to other avatars and you seem to be operating under the assumption that AS gives Aang their knowledge, skill, AND power (which was never stated).



> As for what Aang's shield can take, here:


----------



## Wan (Nov 6, 2012)

Saitomaru said:


> Since when do looks matter? The sandbenders survive and thrive in the desert, they learned to sandbend (most likely) out of necessity. If you want to go by looks Aang doesn't even look remotely threatening so I guess that means Aang loses to every other verse just because he looks about as threatening as any other bald kid would.



So, out of all the points I typed out, you chose to focus on the one corroborating point I tacked on at the end and ignored the rest?  I'm not going to answer this until you give me a proper response in the first place.



> I never said its harder but it is more difficult for an average joe earthbender to just randomly bend it since it is nothing like regular earthbending and instead requires an air/water bending like style.



...exactly.  Prove it's difficult.  Heck, you just claimed it requires an air/waterbending like style, and I've never heard that before.  Got a source on that?



> Feats of moving some rock does not equate to usurping Gaara's control over his sand. Aang's earthbending feats are largely unimpressive his only impressive earthbending feats aren't even his own they belong to other avatars and you seem to be operating under the assumption that AS gives Aang their knowledge, skill, AND power (which was never stated).



On the contrary, feats of moving rock does equate to countering Gaara's control as long as the feat is powerful enough.  Do you have a source that Gaara's chakra makes his sand immune to influence by other forces?  Would Gaara keep his control if he was facing ten Avatars in the Avatar State?  A hundred?  It's a no-limits fallacy that doesn't have any evidence for the assumption that leads to the fallacy in the first place.

And I posted this before you entered the thread so I guess it's understandable if you didn't see it:


*Spoiler*: __ 











> Youtube isn't working right for me but from what I did see its not very impressive. You're also assuming Aang even manages to get into AS before dying.



You don't say?



> He controlled enough to shield his entire village from an explosion, and quickly at that.
> Link removed



Ok, so town level, possibly (we don't get a picture that could be used for directly scaling the sand to the town).  At best that puts Gaara on par with Aang's above feat of surrounding a town with a chasm.  At worst it's way, way below what Kyoshi demonstrated and Aang should be able to do with the Avatar State.



> And Gaara has controlled sand with enough force to block high powered explosions on numerous occasions. What I'm saying is that their is no proof that Kyoshi was in control of every single pebble on that island so you trying to use that as a control feat was pointless (and that's without pointing out that such feats don't necessarily even transfer to Aang).



Actually, there is, or at least proof that she controlled most of the island as she moved it.  If she had been only controlling small portions of the island, the thing would have come apart when it was moved.  The village would have been destroyed in a massive earthquake, and Kyoshi would be a hated villainess rather than a revered heroine.  In order to keep the island stable she had to be controlling most of it.



> Gaara has larger sand control feats than anything I have seen Aang do. Kyoshi moved an island, cool. Too bad this is Aang vs Gaara and not Kyoshi vs Gaara. What's Aang's greatest Earthbending feat, more specifically what's his greatest Sand feat (I want both).



I posted it above.  Aang has no direct sandbending feats, but you haven't provided a reason as to why that would matter.  Sand is earth; feats relating to the scale of earth Aang can move apply to sand as well.

Edit: I was going to address Kyoshi's feats applying to Aang later on presumably when you actually addressed it, but then I realized that you seem to have basically given up on actually arguing that point.  So, does that mean you concede?  Great.  Due to Roku's statements, feats done by past Avatars apply to later Avatars when using the Avatar State.  Alternatively, the Avatar State is the same between each Avatar, with maybe each Avatar adding to it a little more than before.  Either way Kyoshi's island moving feat applies to Aang when in the Avatar State.



> If you're going to try and take away all of Gaara's advantages/stats why even make this thread? This is like making a Itachi vs TenTen match but taking away all of Itachi's limbs, his eyes, and any other ability he may have. Even without his speed Gaara is still stronger and with enough sand he could literally flood the battlefield and just kill Aang that way.



Quit exaggerating, it's just speed equalization which is hardly anything new for the OBD.  If you don't like the terms, feel free leave.



> A normal person? Yeah that's bad. Too bad Gaara isn't normal



Fair enough.  Can you provide a durability feat for Gaara without the sand armor?



> An assumption that is baseless, none of Aang's feats (brought up so far) trump the feats Gaara has for control over his sand.



Nope, for the reasons I've already been over, some in this post.



> How much? You can't just assume that its equal/greater in terms of power to Gaara.



Probably enough to harm him without the sand armor, but I'm waiting on a durability feat before claiming it for sure.



> My point was that that would be the end result, not that the attacks were equal in terms of power. Oh and does that bullet thing count as an earthbending attack? If so how fast is it, and can Aang react to it? Since this debate is OBVIOUSLY catering to Aang I have to figure out what kind of attacks you're allowing Gaara to use. We don't want to miss something and have Gaara win now do we?



Again, my argument was predicated on Aang clearing away Gaara's sand shield and possibly his sand armor before executing the attack.  The bullet attack does not fall under general earthbending speed (and neither would sand techniques that specifically rely on speed, like sand bullets).  Though you could say the speed of such attacks stay the same relative to normal speed earthbending or sand control.



> To bad Gaara has better control of his sand and therefore he simply crushes Aang. They didn't tunnel through earth via physical means, they used their bending. For that to help Aang here he'd have to be able to usurp Gaara's control of his Sand.



"Better"?  How is it "better"?  Because you say so?  Oh right, because it "has his chakra in it".  Like that proves anything.  I can throw something out and fail to connect it with my conclusion also, watch:  Aang uses his chi to control earth.  Therefore his control is better than Gaara's.  Now be careful when refuting that to not indict your own argument.


----------



## Qinglong (Nov 6, 2012)

No it's equalizing things which are not done in normal matches which makes people facepalm and not take the thread seriously, which is why it looks like you're just proving Aang wouldn't stand a chance unless you heavily nerf the opposition


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## Reyes (Nov 6, 2012)

Gara destroys aang HARD!!!!!


----------



## Saitomaru (Nov 6, 2012)

Oman said:


> So, out of all the points I typed out, you chose to focus on the one corroborating point I tacked on at the end and ignored the rest?  I'm not going to answer this until you give me a proper response in the first place.



To be honest, that was the biggest point of your first paragraph. You were calling the Sandbenders average and using a picture of them to try and prove it.



> ...exactly.  Prove it's difficult.  Heck, you just claimed it requires an air/waterbending like style, and I've never heard that before.  Got a source on that?



How about the fact that Toph had trouble bending it or the fact that the Sandbenders not only have their own unique name but they are also feared by the cast to an extent. Yes I know Toph had trouble because she couldn't "see" properly and such but that doesn't change the fact that it was more difficult for her.



> On the contrary, feats of moving rock does equate to countering Gaara's control as long as the feat is powerful enough.  Do you have a source that Gaara's chakra makes his sand immune to influence by other forces?  Would Gaara keep his control if he was facing ten Avatars in the Avatar State?  A hundred?  It's a no-limits fallacy that doesn't have any evidence for the assumption that leads to the fallacy in the first place.



See, now your shoving words in my mouth. I never said his sand was immune, all I said is that Gaara has shown the ability to control massive amounts of sand and Aang hasn't. The feat you posted below, is that from a canon source? I thought only the show was canon for the Avatar series... or is that also in the show too? Now, do you have a source that shows that Aang can control Sand that has another person's chakra in it? Or that proves he can control the sand that acts independently of Gaara? Pretty sure that's not normal sand.



> And I posted this before you entered the thread so I guess it's understandable if you didn't see it:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Is this even canon?



> You don't say?



Okay.



> Ok, so town level, possibly (we don't get a picture that could be used for directly scaling the sand to the town).  At best that puts Gaara on par with Aang's above feat of surrounding a town with a chasm.  At worst it's way, way below what Kyoshi demonstrated and Aang should be able to do with the Avatar State.



His profile says town level and no one has ever seemed to dispute that so yeah. And I think I should point out that surrounding a town with a chasm isn't as impressive as if he had lifted the entire thing. And it damn sure isn't an impressive control feat since you don't have to control the entire town to create a gap between it and the outer area. And if you REALLY want to use it as a control feat it STILL doesn't trump Gaara's feat which he did quickly I might add.



> Actually, there is, or at least proof that she controlled most of the island as she moved it.  If she had been only controlling small portions of the island, the thing would have come apart when it was moved.  The village would have been destroyed in a massive earthquake, and Kyoshi would be a hated villainess rather than a revered heroine.  In order to keep the island stable she had to be controlling most of it.



You do realize that even if she were controlling the entire thing and earthquake would have still been caused right? You know why one wasn't shown? Because its fiction. So that doesn't really prove that she controlled all of it.



> I posted it above.  Aang has no direct sandbending feats, but you haven't provided a reason as to why that would matter.  Sand is earth; feats relating to the scale of earth Aang can move apply to sand as well.



Wait, does he have ANY sandbending feats at all? I've been assuming that he did since you made it seem that way. If he doesn't then you fail, you can't just assume he can do something he hasn't shown to be able to do (kind of like how I don't remember him lightningbending). Now, if he does have some random and most likely unimpressive sandbending feat why are you also assuming that that can be equalized with the rest of his earthbending feats? You claimed that they're the same thing, prove it.



> Edit: I was going to address Kyoshi's feats applying to Aang later on presumably when you actually addressed it, but then I realized that you seem to have basically given up on actually arguing that point.



You obviously haven't been reading my posts if you think I gave up arguing that. You haven't proven that her actual bending feats transfer to Aang, I've been waiting on that proof for a while.



> So, does that mean you concede?



Hell no. Reading comprehension, you lack it.



> Great.  Due to Roku's statements, feats done by past Avatars apply to later Avatars when using the Avatar State.  Alternatively, the Avatar State is the same between each Avatar, with maybe each Avatar adding to it a little more than before.  Either way Kyoshi's island moving feat applies to Aang when in the Avatar State.



You quoted Roku's statement earlier and all it said was knowledge and skill. I fail to see how any of that translates to bending power feats being transferred too. So either way Kyoshi's island moving feat does not apply to Aang when in AS.



> Quit exaggerating, it's just speed equalization which is hardly anything new for the OBD.  If you don't like the terms, feel free leave.



Either you're really incompetent or you never read up on the terms. I'm new and even I know what speed equalization means. It refers to equalizing movement speed NOT everything that has to do with speed. Had this been speed equalization all the replies you got back would have been some sort of speedblitz comment. But since you have so thoroughly nerfed Gaara this thread is VERY hard to take seriously, which is the main reason I and one other person are the only ones even replying now.



> Fair enough.  Can you provide a durability feat for Gaara without the sand armor?



Not without re-reading the series, sorry about that. I just never payed to much attention to Gaara since his sand is usually ever present. The fact that he can cover himself with sand armor also makes it difficult to tell when he is or isn't using the armor.



> Nope, for the reasons I've already been over, some in this post.



It is baseless since you have yet to definitively prove anything. You've been skating around arguments to the point that I'm starting to wonder why I'm even bothering with this thread since it won't prove anything. Out of the two outcomes that are possible one ends with "Gaara obviously stomped so the thread was unnecessary" and the other ends with "Gaara was nerfed and Aang was wanked to victory".



> Probably enough to harm him without the sand armor, but I'm waiting on a durability feat before claiming it for sure.



Okay, so you don't even know how powerful those things are? Okay... And too bad I don't see Gaara dropping his defense so good luck trying to hit him "without his sand armor".



> Again, my argument was predicated on Aang clearing away Gaara's sand shield and possibly his sand armor before executing the attack.  The bullet attack does not fall under general earthbending speed (and neither would sand techniques that specifically rely on speed, like sand bullets).  Though you could say the speed of such attacks stay the same relative to normal speed earthbending or sand control.



So you were basing your argument one a baseless claim made by you... never a good idea bro. And you have got me so confused regarding what speed is allowed how about this:

Match begins-
Gaara controls town levels of sand and kills Aang. gg. That way you can't claim some sort of speed nerfing covers that.



> "Better"?  How is it "better"?  Because you say so?  Oh right, because it "has his chakra in it".  Like that proves anything.  I can throw something out and fail to connect it with my conclusion also, watch:  Aang uses his chi to control earth.  Therefore his control is better than Gaara's.  Now be careful when refuting that to not indict your own argument.



No not because I say so but because you have yet to prove Aang can control town levels of sand. Hell you've yet to prove that Aang could control Gaara's chakra infused sand whilst Gaara is actively controlling it. You wanted me to provide a feat for Gaara controlling a lot of sand, I did. I asked you for the same thing, you didn't provide anything other than him digging some ditches. Troll harder.


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## Wan (Nov 6, 2012)

Saitomaru said:


> To be honest, that was the biggest point of your first paragraph. You were calling the Sandbenders average and using a picture of them to try and prove it.



No, it was literally something I tacked on at the end.  I see you're still refusing to address the main parts of that argument.



> How about the fact that Toph had trouble bending it or the fact that the Sandbenders not only have their own unique name but they are also feared by the cast to an extent. Yes I know Toph had trouble because she couldn't "see" properly and such but that doesn't change the fact that it was more difficult for her.



Actually it does.  Toph's problem had nothing to do with her ability to influence the sand, and you're being dishonest or stupid if you pretend otherwise.  I posted the video earlier showing that she could bend sand just fine, it was just as if she had a blindfold.  This problem wouldn't effect Aang.



> See, now your shoving words in my mouth. I never said his sand was immune, all I said is that Gaara has shown the ability to control massive amounts of sand and Aang hasn't. The feat you posted below, is that from a canon source? I thought only the show was canon for the Avatar series... or is that also in the show too? Now, do you have a source that shows that Aang can control Sand that has another person's chakra in it? Or that proves he can control the sand that acts independently of Gaara? Pretty sure that's not normal sand.



Aang has controlled massive amounts of earth and a feat applies to him which far exceeds Gaara.  In light of that, the only reason Gaara would retain control of his sand is if it was downright immune to outside control, which there is no evidence for and is a no-limits fallacy to boot.  Asking me if "Aang can control sand that has another person's chakra in it" is essentially implying that claim that Gaara's chakra makes the sand somehow immune to outside control.  You have to show that his chakra makes a difference in the first place.



> Is this even canon?



Yes, it's from  graphic novel series set one year after the show.


> Not without re-reading the series, sorry about that. I just never payed to much attention to Gaara since his sand is usually ever present. The fact that he can cover himself with sand armor also makes it difficult to tell when he is or isn't using the armor.



Okay.





> His profile says town level and no one has ever seemed to dispute that so yeah. And I think I should point out that surrounding a town with a chasm isn't as impressive as if he had lifted the entire thing. And it damn sure isn't an impressive control feat since you don't have to control the entire town to create a gap between it and the outer area. And if you REALLY want to use it as a control feat it STILL doesn't trump Gaara's feat which he did quickly I might add.



Note that I don't mean town level _destructive capacity_, just the ability to move town-sized amounts of sand at most.  Aang can pulls in an amount of water far larger than a town at the end of Sozin's Comet, but that hardly makes him a town buster.  Aang's earthbending is still shown to be on a town level through that feat since it surrounds the area of the town.



> You do realize that even if she were controlling the entire thing and earthquake would have still been caused right? You know why one wasn't shown? Because its fiction. So that doesn't really prove that she controlled all of it.



Do you have proof such an earthquake happened?  The fact that Kyoshi is not demonized for wrecking the village implies that the earthquake did not happen because Kyoshi had thorough and close control over moving the island.



> Wait, does he have ANY sandbending feats at all? I've been assuming that he did since you made it seem that way. If he doesn't then you fail, you can't just assume he can do something he hasn't shown to be able to do (kind of like how I don't remember him lightningbending). Now, if he does have some random and most likely unimpressive sandbending feat why are you also assuming that that can be equalized with the rest of his earthbending feats? You claimed that they're the same thing, prove it.



...it's earth.  Might as well ask me to prove he can bend a bunch of slate.  Has he been shown specifically moving slate?  No.  Does that suddenly mean he can't bend slate?  Of course not.  The burden of proof is on you to prove that sand is different enough that general earthbending feats don't apply to it.  It's not like lightning, where it's a totally different technique physically and mechanically.



> You obviously haven't been reading my posts if you think I gave up arguing that. You haven't proven that her actual bending feats transfer to Aang, I've been waiting on that proof for a while.





> You quoted Roku's statement earlier and all it said was knowledge and skill. I fail to see how any of that translates to bending power feats being transferred too. So either way Kyoshi's island moving feat does not apply to Aang when in AS.



False.  Are you being deliberately ignorant now?  Roku also says the Avatar's past lives focus their energy through the body of the Avatar during the Avatar State.  And it's clear just from outside that the Avatar State gives more than knowledge and skill, as the Avatar does techniques which far exceed their normal scale when not using the Avatar State.



> Either you're really incompetent or you never read up on the terms. I'm new and even I know what speed equalization means. It refers to equalizing movement speed NOT everything that has to do with speed. Had this been speed equalization all the replies you got back would have been some sort of speedblitz comment. But since you have so thoroughly nerfed Gaara this thread is VERY hard to take seriously, which is the main reason I and one other person are the only ones even replying now.



Can Gaara still attack with his full destructive capacity....? Yes.
Can Gaara still defend with his full defensive force...? Yes.
Can Gaara still endure the fight as long as normal...? Yes.
Can Gaara still formulate plans and tactics as he might otherwise...?  Yes.
Can Gaara still sense the battlefield like before...? Yes.
etc., etc.

I fail to see how this is "thoroughly nerfing Gaara" when so much about him is unchanged.  If anything, Gaara isn't nerfed at all, Aang is simply brought up to his level.



> Not without re-reading the series, sorry about that. I just never payed to much attention to Gaara since his sand is usually ever present. The fact that he can cover himself with sand armor also makes it difficult to tell when he is or isn't using the armor.



Ok.




> It is baseless since you have yet to definitively prove anything. You've been skating around arguments to the point that I'm starting to wonder why I'm even bothering with this thread since it won't prove anything. Out of the two outcomes that are possible one ends with "Gaara obviously stomped so the thread was unnecessary" and the other ends with "Gaara was nerfed and Aang was wanked to victory".



Skating around arguments?  You're the one who outright _ignored_ parts of my argument even when I pointed it out to you and asked for a proper response.



> Okay, so you don't even know how powerful those things are? Okay... And too bad I don't see Gaara dropping his defense so good luck trying to hit him "without his sand armor".



Did I say that? No, I don't believe I did.



> So you were basing your argument one a baseless claim made by you... never a good idea bro. And you have got me so confused regarding what speed is allowed how about this:
> 
> Match begins-
> Gaara controls town levels of sand and kills Aang. gg. That way you can't claim some sort of speed nerfing covers that.



Aang uses Island-bending earthbending power to push back Gaara's sand and strip away Gaara's defenses.  He lets loose a volley of rock bullets which rip through Gaara.  gg.



> No not because I say so but because you have yet to prove Aang can control town levels of sand. Hell you've yet to prove that Aang could control Gaara's chakra infused sand whilst Gaara is actively controlling it. You wanted me to provide a feat for Gaara controlling a lot of sand, I did. I asked you for the same thing, you didn't provide anything other than him digging some ditches. Troll harder.



You have yet to prove Gaara could control sand while Aang is actively controlling it with his chi.  See?  More statements which fail to be connected to the conclusion.  There is no evidence that Gaara's chakra in and of itself would somehow prevent Aang from bending sand if Aang's scale of control was greater.

But alright, let's look at an outside source.  What does Wikipedia have to say on the nature of sand?

"Sand is a naturally occurring granular material composed of finely divided rock and mineral particles."

Hmm...rocks and minerals...sure sounds like "earth" to me.

If you haven't gotten this through your head yet, let me make it easier:

Sand=Earth
Sand=Earth
Sand=Earth
Sand=Earth
Sand=Earth

If you disagree, _you_ give evidence.  Give a statement from a character that it's hard to bend or it takes special techniques to bend, because from what we know it shouldn't.  In fact, I'll repost the points I made earlier, maybe you won't ignore them this time.

I noted that the sandbender tribes don't seem to have any particularly unusual talent or skill, yet they sandbend without problem. It's never said "Oh, they are such powerful benders, because they can bend sand!" like in the case of lightning or bloodbending. Toph, who had no prior experience with sand and as you pointed out has a specific problem with sand, was still able to move the same amount of sand as she would earth. There are two separate points to the idea that sand is different or more difficult to bend than ordinary earth, and they are both false:

"Sand could require more power than the average earthbender to bend." Since the sandbender tribes seem to be no more than average joe earthbenders who happen to live out in the desert, this is not plausible.

"Sand could require training and learned skill to bend." While this may apply to specific techniques with sandbending, it does not apply to simply moving sand; Toph was able to move sand without learning any prior skill. Metalbending is not comparable because Toph had to be stuck in a box for a day and purposefully design the technique whereas she just seemed to sandbend without putting much thought into it.


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## Expelsword (Nov 6, 2012)

I have a great idea.
Roy Mustang takes an Avatar gauntlet
He's IC and starts 500 feet underwater.

Seriously though, Even if you take away Gaara's movement speed, nearly all Naruto techniques execute and connect faster than Avatar's Bending. Naruto characters also seem to take much heftier beatdowns. They are on two different scales.


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## Saitomaru (Nov 6, 2012)

Oman said:


> No, it was literally something I tacked on at the end.  I see you're still refusing to address the main parts of that argument.



You're point was that the Sandbenders weren't particularly powerful or different than earthbenders in anyway. You then posted a picture as if that helps to prove anything. They are different in that they live in the desert and bend sand with ease (due to the fact that they have practice). The cast was afraid of them to an extent as well.



> Actually it does.  Toph's problem had nothing to do with her ability to influence the sand, and you're being dishonest or stupid if you pretend otherwise.  I posted the video earlier showing that she could bend sand just fine, it was just as if she had a blindfold.  This problem wouldn't effect Aang.



I'm being neither dishonest or stupid, she had trouble bending it those are the facts. It doesn't matter if that was due in part to having trouble seeing it. She also never controlled very large amounts of sand either.



> Aang has controlled massive amounts of earth and a feat applies to him which far exceeds Gaara.



What feat is this?



> In light of that, the only reason Gaara would retain control of his sand is if it was downright immune to outside control, which there is no evidence for and is a no-limits fallacy to boot.



Or maybe he retains control because he has better sand controlling feat. It doesn't have to be immune, but if his control feats are better and if Aang has no sandbending feats it might as well be.



> Asking me if "Aang can control sand that has another person's chakra in it" is essentially implying that claim that Gaara's chakra makes the sand somehow immune to outside control.  You have to show that his chakra makes a difference in the first place.



The point is that his Chakra is infused in the sand (in large quantities to boot) and some of his sand even acts of its own accord. Its obviously not normal sand (the sand that controls itself). His Chakra being in the sand allows him to control each particle. Now you prove that:

-Aang can control sand (give me a feat).
-Control Gaara's self-moving sand.

This debate has been done before in the Toph debate and it was never decided whether or not they can control Chakra infused elements.



> Yes, it's from  graphic novel series set one year after the show.



So where does that sit canonwise? I'm just curious.



> Note that I don't mean town level _destructive capacity_, just the ability to move town-sized amounts of sand at most.  Aang can pulls in an amount of water far larger than a town at the end of Sozin's Comet, but that hardly makes him a town buster.  Aang's earthbending is still shown to be on a town level through that feat since it surrounds the area of the town.



I wasn't saying that he's a townbuster. I was referring to the volume of sand being town level. Surrounding a town does not equal town level.



> Do you have proof such an earthquake happened?  The fact that Kyoshi is not demonized for wrecking the village implies that the earthquake did not happen because Kyoshi had thorough and close control over moving the island.



Reading comprehension. I said that it would have still occurred even if Kyoshi had controlled all of the earth on that island. My point was that there not being an earthquake is not substantial proof that Kyoshi controlled the entire island.



> ...it's earth.  Might as well ask me to prove he can bend a bunch of slate.  Has he been shown specifically moving slate?  No.  Does that suddenly mean he can't bend slate?  Of course not.  The burden of proof is on you to prove that sand is different enough that general earthbending feats don't apply to it.  It's not like lightning, where it's a totally different technique physically and mechanically.


 
Actually, the burden of proof is on you to prove that he can even bend sand. If he hasn't done it before and Toph had trouble doing so her first time you can't just assume that he'll be able to usurp Gaara's control his first try.



> False.  Are you being deliberately ignorant now?  Roku also says the Avatar's past lives focus their energy through the body of the Avatar during the Avatar State.  And it's clear just from outside that the Avatar State gives more than knowledge and skill, as the Avatar does techniques which far exceed their normal scale when not using the Avatar State.



That quote contained nothing about bending power being transferred. Life energy does not equal bending feats. This has been debated before, long story short: Bending feats don't get passed on.



> Can Gaara still attack with his full destructive capacity....? Yes.
> Can Gaara still defend with his full defensive force...? Yes.
> Can Gaara still endure the fight as long as normal...? Yes.
> Can Gaara still formulate plans and tactics as he might otherwise...?  Yes.
> ...



You're preventing Gaara from even landing a hit by nerfing attack speed to something Aang can manage.



> Ok.





> Skating around arguments?  You're the one who outright _ignored_ parts of my argument even when I pointed it out to you and asked for a proper response.



I didn't ignore anything, I addressed the prevailing argument. The other stuff you listed was random crap that had little to do with the matter at hand due to the fact that there are more options than those you listed.



> Did I say that? No, I don't believe I did.



My point was that you haven't proved that Aang can usurp Gaara's control. Therefore the only way he's attacking Gaara whilst his sand shield isn't present is if Gaara just sheds his defense.



> Aang uses Island-bending earthbending power to push back Gaara's sand and strip away Gaara's defenses.  He lets loose a volley of rock bullets which rip through Gaara.  gg.



You meant the same island-bending feat that doesn't even apply to him? Nice try.



> You have yet to prove Gaara could control sand while Aang is actively controlling it with his chi.  See?



Because seem so intent on me replying to everything I guess I'll point out that since Gaara keeps sand on his person at all times he wouldn't even need to try and take over control from Aang but going by "controlling feats" Gaara can control a greater amount of sand at a time than Aang and therefore according to you that means he could just kill Aang with the very sand Aang thinks he's controlling.



> More statements which fail to be connected to the conclusion.  There is no evidence that Gaara's chakra in and of itself would somehow prevent Aang from bending sand if Aang's scale of control was greater.



The point is that not only is Gaara's sand different than regular sand when its saturated with his Chakra, his ability to control sand (going by feats) is leagues above Aang's apparent lack of feats for the same thing. Factor in the fact that Gaara also has sand that likes to act of its own accord and there is no reason to assume his sand is normal.



> But alright, let's look at an outside source.  What does Wikipedia have to say on the nature of sand?
> 
> "Sand is a naturally occurring granular material composed of finely divided rock and mineral particles."
> 
> ...



lol I can do that too: 

Your thread=Bad
Your thread=Bad
Your thread=Bad
Your thread=Bad
Your thread=Bad

See


----------



## Saitomaru (Nov 6, 2012)

> If you disagree, _you_ give evidence.  Give a statement from a character that it's hard to bend or it takes special techniques to bend, because from what we know it shouldn't.  In fact, I'll repost the points I made earlier, maybe you won't ignore them this time.



Okay since we're apparently using outside sources here you go:



> Sandbending: Sandbenders are earthbenders who have adapted to life in the Si Wong Desert. They use earthbending in a specialized style, which emphasizes the manipulation of sand. They move quickly in the desert on specialized wooden sailers that are propelled by bending miniature, localized sandstorms behind their sails. Because sand is sediment which travels in flows, their style resembles air and waterbending more than earthbending. It is implied that most, if not all, earthbenders are capable of easily bending sand, *but because of the loose shifty nature of sand it is not an easy transition for the average earthbender.* _The sandbenders of the desert are especially proficient with it due to their particular habitat_.[11] After the events at Si Wong Desert, Toph practiced her sandbending, achieving a mastery over it that allowed her to create an extremely detailed miniature sand version of Ba Sing Se.



Underlined is what I admitted a while back, bold is what I'm saying affects Aang since you said he has no sandbending feats. Italicized applies to the thing below.



> I noted that the sandbender tribes don't seem to have any particularly unusual talent or skill, yet they sandbend without problem. It's never said "Oh, they are such powerful benders, because they can bend sand!" like in the case of lightning or bloodbending. Toph, who had no prior experience with sand and as you pointed out has a specific problem with sand, was still able to move the same amount of sand as she would earth. There are two separate points to the idea that sand is different or more difficult to bend than ordinary earth, and they are both false:



If Aang hasn't controlled sand before why are you assuming he can match Gaara his first try?



> "Sand could require more power than the average earthbender to bend." Since the sandbender tribes seem to be no more than average joe earthbenders who happen to live out in the desert, this is not plausible.



See, the reason why I didn't reply to this is because it has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I never once said or operated under the idea that the above was true. Your attempt to put words in my mouth fails. Now prove Aang can control Gaara's chakra saturated, self-operating sand.



> "Sand could require training and learned skill to bend." While this may apply to specific techniques with sandbending, it does not apply to simply moving sand; Toph was able to move sand without learning any prior skill.



Toph wasn't able to do anything impressive with out practice. Gaara creates clones, shurikan, shields, statues, etc out of sand casually and on a much larger scale.



> Metalbending is not comparable because Toph had to be stuck in a box for a day and purposefully design the technique whereas she just seemed to sandbend without putting much thought into it.



Her unpracticed sandbending was piss poor, are you implying that an unpracticed Aang can match Gaara?


----------



## Expelsword (Nov 6, 2012)

The question is, is Aang stronger than the Shukaku?
If he is, he can move Gaara's sand.


----------



## Wan (Nov 7, 2012)

Saitomaru said:


> You're point was that the Sandbenders weren't particularly powerful or different than earthbenders in anyway. You then posted a picture as if that helps to prove anything. They are different in that they live in the desert and bend sand with ease (due to the fact that they have practice). The cast was afraid of them to an extent as well.



Not exactly.  Your claim is that sand is more difficult to bend than earth.  My counterpoint to that is that earthbenders who are not established as being extraordinary other than living in the desert bend sand just as well as ordinary earthbenders bend earth elsewhere (meaning it does not require extra power); there is nothing about sandbender that necessitates that bending sand is difficult. Also, Toph could bend sand without difficulty (in moving it), which shows that influencing sand is not a learned skill like metalbending or lightning bending is.

And no, the cast was not afraid of sandbenders in particular.  Provide a quote if you think otherwise.



> I'm being neither dishonest or stupid, she had trouble bending it those are the facts. It doesn't matter if that was due in part to having trouble seeing it. She also never controlled very large amounts of sand either.



She did not have trouble _bending_ it.  She had trouble _seeing_ with sand.  That is the fact.  Sand gives Toph trouble but not when it comes to actually bending it.



> What feat is this?



Again, are you being deliberately obtuse or just stupid?  It's the Kyoshi island moving feat.



> Or maybe he retains control because he has better sand controlling feat. It doesn't have to be immune, but if his control feats are better and if Aang has no sandbending feats it might as well be.



If Gaara had a larger controlling feat than Aang, then I would concede the point.  But the island moving feat exceeds Gaara's sand control feats.



> The point is that his Chakra is infused in the sand (in large quantities to boot) and some of his sand even acts of its own accord. Its obviously not normal sand (the sand that controls itself). His Chakra being in the sand allows him to control each particle. Now you prove that:
> 
> -Aang can control sand (give me a feat).
> -Control Gaara's self-moving sand.
> ...



How about you prove that Gaara's "self-moving sand" is somehow resistant to earth control which exceeds Gaara's power?  And again, sand is earth, and Aang controls earth.  I've already posted feats of Aang controlling large amounts of earth.

With regards to Toph, I would not argue that she could control Gaara's sand because her earth control feats do not exceed Gaara's.  What's the point of citing that it was "never decided"?  If anything, that would just indicate that Aang might be able to control Gaara's sand.  If you support that line of thought you should just concede that Aang might be able to control sand and leave it at that.



> So where does that sit canonwise? I'm just curious.



It's fully canon.  It was made with close involvement by the co-creators of Avatar.



> I wasn't saying that he's a townbuster. I was referring to the volume of sand being town level. Surrounding a town does not equal town level.



I know, I was just making that clear. And by the same token, covering a town doesn't necessarily equal town level either.




> Reading comprehension. I said that it would have still occurred even if Kyoshi had controlled all of the earth on that island. My point was that there not being an earthquake is not substantial proof that Kyoshi controlled the entire island.



My point is that the earthquake would have had to happen if Kyoshi was not controlling the whole island stably.  The earthquake could have happened even with the control, but it would definitely happened without full control.  The earthquake did _not_ happen, therefore Kyoshi was controlling the whole island stably.  Modus tollens, look it up.



> Actually, the burden of proof is on you to prove that he can even bend sand. If he hasn't done it before and Toph had trouble doing so her first time you can't just assume that he'll be able to usurp Gaara's control his first try.



Sand is earth and Toph did not have trouble bending sand.



> That quote contained nothing about bending power being transferred. Life energy does not equal bending feats. This has been debated before, long story short: Bending feats don't get passed on.



Alright, let's get technical, shall we?

Roku's exact words are "The glow is the combination of all your past lives focusing their energy through your body." Energy.  Where else is that term used? Oh yeah, by the lion turtle...

"In the era before the Avatar, we bent not the elements, but the energy within ourselves."

Personal energy is where the ability to bend comes from, shown by energybending removing people's bending abilities.  The Avatar State focuses the energy of all the past Avatars into the current Avatar.  Therefore, the Avatar State gives the current Avatar the bending abilities of the past Avatars.

No matter how you look at it, the way the Avatar State is explained indicates that the Avatar gets the bending abilities of past Avatars.  If not, then where does the Avatar get that huge increase in power at all?



> You're preventing Gaara from even landing a hit by nerfing attack speed to something Aang can manage.



I'm not making it so Aang can outright avoid Gaara's attacks, just interact and defend against the attacks.  Gaara can land hits, the hits just have to get through Aang's defenses.



> My point was that you haven't proved that Aang can usurp Gaara's control. Therefore the only way he's attacking Gaara whilst his sand shield isn't present is if Gaara just sheds his defense.



It does go back to that one point.  Would you say that if Aang is able to bend sand just as well as earth and if the Kyoshi feat applies to him, he could break through Gaara's defenses?



> Because seem so intent on me replying to everything I guess I'll point out that since Gaara keeps sand on his person at all times he wouldn't even need to try and take over control from Aang but going by "controlling feats" Gaara can control a greater amount of sand at a time than Aang and therefore according to you that means he could just kill Aang with the very sand Aang thinks he's controlling.



What does Gaara having the sand on him have to do with overwhelming Aang's control through chi?  And no, according to me it stops at Aang controlling a greater amount of earth than Gaara has controlled sand.



> The point is that not only is Gaara's sand different than regular sand when its saturated with his Chakra, his ability to control sand (going by feats) is leagues above Aang's apparent lack of feats for the same thing. Factor in the fact that Gaara also has sand that likes to act of its own accord and there is no reason to assume his sand is normal.



Ok?  It's still sand.  How does being "not normal" change anything in the battle?   See, you seem to be working on two premises:  "Gaara's sand is not normal for reasons".  Granted.  The second premise is "Aang cannot control sand that is not normal".  Then you get the conclusion "Aang cannot control Gaara's sand".  The thing is, that second premise is unfounded. I could dye some sand green and say it's "not normal".  Would that mean Gaara can't control it? There is no evidence for that statement or your implied premise.  Therefore, there is no proof for your claim that Aang cannot control Gaara's sand.



> lol I can do that too:
> 
> See



At least mine was relevant to the argument. 



Saitomaru said:


> Okay since we're apparently using outside sources here you go:
> 
> Underlined is what I admitted a while back, bold is what I'm saying affects Aang since you said he has no sandbending feats. Italicized applies to the thing below.



The Avatar Wiki is not a canon source for Avatar.  I cited Wikipedia as a defintion of sand in general, which applies to both the Avatarverse and Narutoverse unless otherwise stated.



> If Aang hasn't controlled sand before why are you assuming he can match Gaara his first try?




Sand is earth.  Do you disagree with this?



> See, the reason why I didn't reply to this is because it has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I never once said or operated under the idea that the above was true. Your attempt to put words in my mouth fails. Now prove Aang can control Gaara's chakra saturated, self-operating sand.



Really?  Then why is controlling sand difficult?  And please, prove being chakra saturated and self-operating means Aang can't control sand



> Toph wasn't able to do anything impressive with out practice. Gaara creates clones, shurikan, shields, statues, etc out of sand casually and on a much larger scale.
> 
> Her unpracticed sandbending was piss poor, are you implying that an unpracticed Aang can match Gaara?



The point is not that she was able to do anything impressive, but that she was able to do anything at all.  If bending sand was like generating lightning or metalbending, as you have claimed, then Toph would have needed previous practice with sand to even effect it.  She did not have practice, therefore controlling sand is not specially difficult like generating lightning or metalbending.  Modus tollens, again.



Expelsword said:


> The question is, is Aang stronger than the Shukaku?
> If he is, he can move Gaara's sand.



The question that needs to be answered first is just how strong is Shukaku.  Current Gaara does not have Shukaku at all, anyways.


----------



## Saitomaru (Nov 7, 2012)

Oman said:


> Not exactly.  Your claim is that sand is more difficult to bend than earth.  My counterpoint to that is that earthbenders who are not established as being extraordinary other than living in the desert bend sand just as well as ordinary earthbenders bend earth elsewhere (meaning it does not require extra power); there is nothing about sandbender that necessitates that bending sand is difficult. Also, Toph could bend sand without difficulty (in moving it), which shows that influencing sand is not a learned skill like metalbending or lightning bending is.



And simply moving it is impressive how? Had she done with it what she has done with earth I would have considered that a solid feat and conceded long ago on this point. Its not solid, and all she's really doing is moving a LITTLE amount of sand. 



> And no, the cast was not afraid of sandbenders in particular.  Provide a quote if you think otherwise.



Go back and re-watch the episodes, I can't watch videos so I can't really help you with quotes. Now if this was a manga we were talking about I'd be able to post scans for you no problem. Sorry.



> She did not have trouble _bending_ it.  She had trouble _seeing_ with sand.  That is the fact.  Sand gives Toph trouble but not when it comes to actually bending it.



See, you keep claiming she had no trouble bending it yet you seem to leave out that all she was doing was simply moving it. There were no techniques or complex movements mixed in there. So technically her control over that sand she managed to move was piss poor to begin with. Gaara not only moves sand, he makes it behave in ways it damn well shouldn't (i.e- clones, various weapons, giant shields, etc).



> Again, are you being deliberately obtuse or just stupid?  It's the Kyoshi island moving feat.


 
No I'm not being stupid, you said "Aang has controlled massive amounts of earth *and a feat applies to him which far exceeds Gaara.*"
Kyoshi feat doesn't apply to Aang. And I'm still waiting on something that shows Aang has some good, solid, and complex control of sand. Gaara has all of that.



> If Gaara had a larger controlling feat than Aang, then I would concede the point.  But the island moving feat exceeds Gaara's sand control feats.



Not only does that feat not apply to Aang, it doesn't even state whether or not she's really even controlling the entire island or just part of it.



> How about you prove that Gaara's "self-moving sand" is somehow resistant to earth control which exceeds Gaara's power?  And again, sand is earth, and Aang controls earth.  I've already posted feats of Aang controlling large amounts of earth.



How about _YOU_ prove Aang can control it. It doesn't have to be resistant to 'earth control' if it isn't covered under the things an earthbender can control. Or are you trying to say that as long as something looks like an element a bender can control its fair game? You asked me to prove it wasn't normal so I pointed out the fact that it controls itself. How is that not abnormal? You've only provided one large earthmoving feat that even applies to Aang, and that didn't trump Gaara's. At most it matched it.



> With regards to Toph, I would not argue that she could control Gaara's sand because her earth control feats do not exceed Gaara's.  What's the point of citing that it was "never decided"?  If anything, that would just indicate that Aang might be able to control Gaara's sand.  If you support that line of thought you should just concede that Aang might be able to control sand and leave it at that.



I've already said Aang might (and should) be able to control sand. The point is that he hasn't shown anything impressive in regards to sandbending nor has he shown any complex earthbending. So if none of his feats trump Gaara's and out of the two of them the one who has shown the most complex feats is Gaara I don't see why we're even debating over who has better control feats.



> It's fully canon.  It was made with close involvement by the co-creators of Avatar.



Okay, I was just curious. I wasn't aware the series had anything other than just a show.



> I know, I was just making that clear. And by the same token, covering a town doesn't necessarily equal town level either.



I think it was considered town level for two reasons: the amount of sand, and the fact that it tanked a "town level" explosion. If you want proof of the town level explosion part go search for calcs or something because I'm just as skeptical as you in regards to that.



> My point is that the earthquake would have had to happen if Kyoshi was not controlling the whole island stably.  The earthquake could have happened even with the control, but it would definitely happened without full control.  The earthquake did _not_ happen, therefore Kyoshi was controlling the whole island stably.  Modus tollens, look it up.



And my point is it would have happened both ways. The only way it might not have happened is if she lifted the entire island into the air, transported it to its spot, and then gently set it down. The feat shows it moving in a sliding, horizontal way, which would have caused an earthquake either way unless she was controlling the surrounding tectonic plates as well. 



> Sand is earth and Toph did not have trouble bending sand.



She didn't have trouble moving it, that is correct. She did however have trouble doing anything more complex than that, and she couldn't even move an amount equivalent to her typical earth feats. It wasn't until she had practice that she was doing anything complex with it.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Here's a question: How does having someones life energy (which explains the boost in power) some how extend to having their bending feats? As expelsword said maybe kyoshi was stronger than him. The fact that the majority of her feats were non-AS lends credence to this. Aang on the other hand, has shown little to nothing impressive while in base and only a few impressive feats while in AS and even then they weren't on par with some of the past avatar's feats (Well, I can't remember any feat of his that matched their's).


----------



## Saitomaru (Nov 7, 2012)

> I'm not making it so Aang can outright avoid Gaara's attacks, just interact and defend against the attacks.  Gaara can land hits, the hits just have to get through Aang's defenses.



Aang has shown on numerous occasions that he has no trouble dodging normal earthbending techniques which you have equalized all of Gaara's attacks with. This means that you have essentially made Aang untouchable unless Gaara just covers enough area. And to make things worse you're claiming that an unpracticed Aang can sandbend on Gaara's level. Hell, Aang never even got on Toph's level (during the first series). Toph created metalbending which showed that she has some measure of skill regarding earthbending that Aang does not. So if you think about it, Toph moving sand despite having no practice might not even apply to Aang.



> It does go back to that one point.  Would you say that if Aang is able to bend sand just as well as earth and if the Kyoshi feat applies to him, he could break through Gaara's defenses?


 
If you could prove that she was in control of the entire island at the time and that Aang could match his eathbending feats I would be willing to admit that Aang could move a greater volume of sand than Gaara and that he could control all the sand that is normal. Gaara's self-moving sand is by no means normal and assuming Aang can control it just because you're assuming he can control sand is stupid and you must prove that he can control obviously abnormal versions of elements.



> What does Gaara having the sand on him have to do with overwhelming Aang's control through chi?  And no, according to me it stops at Aang controlling a greater amount of earth than Gaara has controlled sand.



My point was that he wouldn't need to overwhelm Aang's chi control because he could just use the sand he already has on him. You know, sand that wouldn't have Aang's chi in it. Not that any of this matters since Gaara has been nerfed so much its kind of a waste of time participating in this thread (I'm doing it mostly for the post count increase).



> Ok?  It's still sand.  How does being "not normal" change anything in the battle?   See, you seem to be working on two premises:  "Gaara's sand is not normal for reasons".  Granted.  The second premise is *"Aang cannot control sand that is not normal"*.  Then you get the conclusion "Aang cannot control Gaara's sand".  The thing is, *that second premise is unfounded.* I could dye some sand green and say it's "not normal".  Would that mean Gaara can't control it? There is no evidence for that statement or your implied premise.  Therefore, there is no proof for your claim that Aang cannot control Gaara's sand.



Okay, prove that Aang can control sand that isn't normal (his sand controls itself that trumps you're dyed green argument below).



> At least mine was relevant to the argument.



Fair enough. The thread is still bad. I haven't negged you because I don't like negging people. But this thread is definitely deserving of some neggs.



> The Avatar Wiki is not a canon source for Avatar.  I cited Wikipedia as a defintion of sand in general, which applies to both the Avatarverse and Narutoverse unless otherwise stated.



I never said it was. You used an out side source of information so I did too. And your definition of sand doesn't exactly work when some of Gaara's sand shows a measure of sentience.



> Sand is earth.  Do you disagree with this?



It's part of what makes up this planet... And if you want an answer to this question that is more direct look at my answer to the question of whether or not Aang should be able to control sand.



> Really?  Then why is controlling sand difficult?  And please, prove being chakra saturated and self-operating means Aang can't control sand


 
Burden of proof is on you. I have proven the sand is obviously not normal (or even something you'd find in the Avatarverse). Now you must prove his control of sand extends to things that are completely different (something you have yet to do).



> The point is not that she was able to do anything impressive, but that she was able to do anything at all.  If bending sand was like generating lightning or metalbending, as you have claimed, then Toph would have needed previous practice with sand to even effect it.  She did not have practice, therefore controlling sand is not specially difficult like generating lightning or metalbending.  Modus tollens, again.



Again, all she did was move it. Saying that that is equivalent of sandbending on levels equal to Gaara is like saying I'm an expert at driving an airplane because I manage to turn it on. She made it move. That's about it, that hardly stacks up incomparison to Gaara.



> The question that needs to be answered first is just how strong is Shukaku.  Current Gaara does not have Shukaku at all, anyways.



If we assume its body is made of sand then it has the ability to control huge quantities of sand and is able to fight on par with a toad . In all honesty, I don't think anyone has taken the time to even calc anything the shukaku has done. By virtue of being a bijuu it SHOULD have the ability to use the bijuu dama but I'm not going to say it can since it hasn't shown the ability. Just like how Aang SHOULD be able to control sand despite never showing the ability.


----------



## Qinglong (Nov 7, 2012)

He still has the Shield of Sand and it's fast enough to block Sasuke's Ameterasu (not necessarily in this pic however, this is just to note even without the Shukaku it still works independant of his will, it's explained later when he fights his father)



Gaara's Sand intercepts A's Guillotine Drop


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## Tir (Nov 7, 2012)

M-20 sand. Does Aang's reaction time come even close to this?


----------



## Expelsword (Nov 7, 2012)

Maybe 1/10 as close...


----------



## Wan (Nov 7, 2012)

Saitomaru said:


> And simply moving it is impressive how? Had she done with it what she has done with earth I would have considered that a solid feat and conceded long ago on this point. Its not solid, and all she's really doing is moving a LITTLE amount of sand.



It doesn't have to be impressive, it just has to indicate there's no particular difficulty in bending earth in order to disprove your claim that there is.  Though I will point out that Toph managed a similar sand-hardening feat to give herself better footing that the sandbenders did a little later, again without prior experience with sand:









> Go back and re-watch the episodes, I can't watch videos so I can't really help you with quotes. Now if this was a manga we were talking about I'd be able to post scans for you no problem. Sorry.



Here you go:



Find the quote, or your claim is unfounded.



> See, you keep claiming she had no trouble bending it yet you seem to leave out that all she was doing was simply moving it. There were no techniques or complex movements mixed in there. So technically her control over that sand she managed to move was piss poor to begin with. Gaara not only moves sand, he makes it behave in ways it damn well shouldn't (i.e- clones, various weapons, giant shields, etc).



Ok?  Not trying anything technically impressive is not the same as having trouble bending the sand.



> No I'm not being stupid, you said "Aang has controlled massive amounts of earth *and a feat applies to him which far exceeds Gaara.*"
> Kyoshi feat doesn't apply to Aang. And I'm still waiting on something that shows Aang has some good, solid, and complex control of sand. Gaara has all of that.
> Not only does that feat not apply to Aang, it doesn't even state whether or not she's really even controlling the entire island or just part of it.



The chasm feat works for that.



> How about _YOU_ prove Aang can control it. It doesn't have to be resistant to 'earth control' if it isn't covered under the things an earthbender can control. Or are you trying to say that as long as something looks like an element a bender can control its fair game? You asked me to prove it wasn't normal so I pointed out the fact that it controls itself. How is that not abnormal? You've only provided one large earthmoving feat that even applies to Aang, and that didn't trump Gaara's. At most it matched it.



It _is_ covered under what an earthbender can control.  We see earthbenders and Toph control sand.  And I asked how Gaara's sand being not normal makes a difference, not just how it's not normal.



> I've already said Aang might (and should) be able to control sand. The point is that he hasn't shown anything impressive in regards to sandbending nor has he shown any complex earthbending. So if none of his feats trump Gaara's and out of the two of them the one who has shown the most complex feats is Gaara I don't see why we're even debating over who has better control feats.



He doesn't have to directly show impressive sand control, because the scale of his earthbending control applies to sand.  I admit that Aang has not shown the same complexity of control over sand that Gaara has and likely could not replicate Gaara's more complex techniques, but "push sand back" or "push sand away" is not complex and thus does not require evidence of skill with complexity in order to show that Aang can do it.



> I think it was considered town level for two reasons: the amount of sand, and the fact that it tanked a "town level" explosion. If you want proof of the town level explosion part go search for calcs or something because I'm just as skeptical as you in regards to that.



Deidara's explosion has never been proven to be town-level; an unproven premise cannot be used to support a conclusion.



> And my point is it would have happened both ways. The only way it might not have happened is if she lifted the entire island into the air, transported it to its spot, and then gently set it down. The feat shows it moving in a sliding, horizontal way, which would have caused an earthquake either way unless she was controlling the surrounding tectonic plates as well.



That's demonstrably false, since we know that the earthquake did not destroy the town even though Kyoshi did not do what you suggested.



> She didn't have trouble moving it, that is correct. She did however have trouble doing anything more complex than that, and she couldn't even move an amount equivalent to her typical earth feats. It wasn't until she had practice that she was doing anything complex with it.



Again, complexity is not needed for simply keeping sand back.



> Here's a question: How does having someones life energy (which explains the boost in power) some how extend to having their bending feats? As expelsword said maybe kyoshi was stronger than him. The fact that the majority of her feats were non-AS lends credence to this. Aang on the other hand, has shown little to nothing impressive while in base and only a few impressive feats while in AS and even then they weren't on par with some of the past avatar's feats (Well, I can't remember any feat of his that matched their's).



So, you admit that the life energy explains the boost in power, or in other words, gives the Avatar the power of the past Avatars? Great.  The other piece to it is "skills and knowledge".  An Avatar in the Avatar State has the power and skill of past Avatars, all that's needed to apply their feats to him.  An Avatar's preexisting feats have no bearing on what he or she can do in the Avatar State, that's the entire point of it.



Saitomaru said:


> Aang has shown on numerous occasions that he has no trouble dodging normal earthbending techniques which you have equalized all of Gaara's attacks with. This means that you have essentially made Aang untouchable unless Gaara just covers enough area. And to make things worse you're claiming that an unpracticed Aang can sandbend on Gaara's level. Hell, Aang never even got on Toph's level (during the first series). Toph created metalbending which showed that she has some measure of skill regarding earthbending that Aang does not. So if you think about it, Toph moving sand despite having no practice might not even apply to Aang.



No, you're interpreting what I said to be worse than what I intended.  And are you somehow suggesting that Toph is better at earthbending than Aang in the Avatar State?  Toph created metalbending after extensive time and attempts, and metal had been directly stated to not fall under normal earthbending beforehand.  Toph had no such time and practice with sand, and there is no such statement about sand like there was metal.



> If you could prove that she was in control of the entire island at the time and that Aang could match his eathbending feats I would be willing to admit that Aang could move a greater volume of sand than Gaara and that he could control all the sand that is normal. Gaara's self-moving sand is by no means normal and assuming Aang can control it just because you're assuming he can control sand is stupid and you must prove that he can control obviously abnormal versions of elements.



So, he would still not be able to control it regardless of his power?  No-limits fallacy.



> My point was that he wouldn't need to overwhelm Aang's chi control because he could just use the sand he already has on him. You know, sand that wouldn't have Aang's chi in it. Not that any of this matters since Gaara has been nerfed so much its kind of a waste of time participating in this thread (I'm doing it mostly for the post count increase).



Why would that make a difference once Aang starts controlling it with his chi?



> Okay, prove that Aang can control sand that isn't normal (his sand controls itself that trumps you're dyed green argument below).



Prove that Gaara's sand is abnormal in a way that Aang couldn't control it; that's the very point of my green dye example.  There's no more reason that Gaara's chakra would prevent Aang from controlling sand (other than having more power, which it doesn't) than putting green dye in sand would prevent Aang from controlling it.



> I never said it was. You used an out side source of information so I did too. And your definition of sand doesn't exactly work when some of Gaara's sand shows a measure of sentience.



The reason my outside source was valid to the situation does not apply to the source you tried using.  And yes, the definition still works.  Gaara's sand is still a bunch of rock and minerals.



> Burden of proof is on you. I have proven the sand is obviously not normal (or even something you'd find in the Avatarverse). Now you must prove his control of sand extends to things that are completely different (something you have yet to do).



See above.  Showing a difference does not mean that difference matters.



> Again, all she did was move it. Saying that that is equivalent of sandbending on levels equal to Gaara is like saying I'm an expert at driving an airplane because I manage to turn it on. She made it move. That's about it, that hardly stacks up incomparison to Gaara.



Strawman; I'm not comparing Toph's raw power to Gaara's. Toph's feats establish that sand is earth and can be bent just as easily as earth; how "easy" that is depends on the power level of the individual bender, as with any amount of earth.



> If we assume its body is made of sand then it has the ability to control huge quantities of sand and is able to fight on par with a toad . In all honesty, I don't think anyone has taken the time to even calc anything the shukaku has done. By virtue of being a bijuu it SHOULD have the ability to use the bijuu dama but I'm not going to say it can since it hasn't shown the ability. Just like how Aang SHOULD be able to control sand despite never showing the ability.



Is it ever stated that all bijuus can use bijuu dama? Not all traits apply universally to bijuus; otherwise, they would all be composed of sand (or some other element) or Shukaku wouldn't be made of sand at all.  The ability to interact with earth applies to all earthbenders, and there is no reason to exclude sand from this.


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## Qinglong (Nov 7, 2012)

Gaara himself can't control the shield, it stops him from committing suicide. You can argue over the regular sand all you want but it doesn't matter his attack speed > anyone in Avatar


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## Saitomaru (Nov 7, 2012)

Oman said:


> It doesn't have to be impressive, it just has to indicate there's no particular difficulty in bending earth in order to disprove your claim that there is.  Though I will point out that Toph managed a similar sand-hardening feat to give herself better footing that the sandbenders did a little later, again without prior experience with sand:



It does have to be impressive if you're going to try and use it as grounds to say any one character in Avatar can usurp Gaara's control over his sand.



>



Thanks for these, I'm not sure what's wrong with videos. Oh and these sort of confused me... could you give me a few tips on how to work that site? The pictures themselves didn't seem to be showing anything that you are referring to.



> Here you go:



I'm not quite sure what you expect me to do with that... Do you really expect me to dig through all that when you have not only not provided proof for what I asked but you have also skated around many things I asked for. You throw links at me that require me to do a bunch of searching and actually expect me to do it... HAHAHA If I took this thread seriously I might go through the trouble but with Gaara nerfed so heavily and with you avoiding obvious holes in your argument I'm not even going to bother.



> Find the quote, *or your claim is unfounded.*



Like most of your claims?



> Ok?  Not trying anything technically impressive is not the same as having trouble bending the sand.



Not doing anything impressive is a lack of impressive control feats. Moving a little sand doesn't equal usurping Gaara's control.



> The chasm feat works for that.



You mean the very feat that ISN'T impressive either? Hell the high end for that tops out at town level, considering all he's really doing is digging a glorified ditch around a town its not impressive at all.



> It _is_ covered under what an earthbender can control.  We see earthbenders and Toph control sand.  And I asked how Gaara's sand being not normal makes a difference, not just how it's not normal.



So you're saying that Earthbenders can control all forms of sand including sand that is obviously not normal and even controls itself... Prove it. The sand shows sentience and acts on its own, you might as well consider it a living thing. I have proven that it is not normal and therefore doesn't line up perfectly with ANY feat from avatar. Now you prove that they can control sentient sand. Prove that they can control an element that is (for all intents and purposes) living.



> He doesn't have to directly show impressive sand control, because the scale of his earthbending control applies to sand.  I admit that Aang has not shown the same complexity of control over sand that Gaara has and likely could not replicate Gaara's more complex techniques, but "push sand back" or "push sand away" is not complex and thus does not require evidence of skill with complexity in order to show that Aang can do it.



Gaara's feats show that he can control huge quantities of sand (the town feat) and that he can control sand precisely and in complex ways (the various other feats involving sand clones, weapons, etc.). What does Aang have? Sandbending- Nothing. Earthbending- Digging a ditch and covering himself with rocks. So if we compare them side by side

Gaara- Town level sand quantities, high degree of control (this refers to the complexity of his control).
Aang- Town level earth quantities (yet no sand feats), low degree of control (unless you can post him doing something complex).

Now if for some strange reason their quantity control were even what would happen? I'd assume that the person with the best control (I can't come up with another word other than control for some reason...) wins. What happens if Gaara slings a sand clone at him? Its obviously too complex for Aang to handle so who wins?



> Deidara's explosion has never been proven to be town-level; an unproven premise cannot be used to support a conclusion.



Blame whoever gave the final word on that then. I'm not the one who decided to call it town level, but that's what its considered "officially".



> That's demonstrably false, since we know that the earthquake did not destroy the town even though Kyoshi did not do what you suggested.



lolfiction. Just because it didn't happen in the feat doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened IRL. My point was that the lack of an earthquake should not be considered proof that she was controlling the entire island because an earthquake would have occurred either way. So your attempt at appealing to realism is a double-edged sword.



> Again, complexity is not needed for simply keeping sand back.



It is when the best Aang can hope for is to match Gaara's quantity control. At least if he had more complex control you could argue that Aang had a stronger control grain for grain than Gaara did, unfortunately for you he doesn't.



> So, you admit that the life energy explains the boost in power, or in other words, gives the Avatar the power of the past Avatars? Great.  The other piece to it is "skills and knowledge".  An Avatar in the Avatar State has the power and skill of past Avatars, all that's needed to apply their feats to him.  An Avatar's preexisting feats have no bearing on what he or she can do in the Avatar State, that's the entire point of it.



Skills and knowledge don't cover bending feats, and energy only explains how where the power boost comes from. None of that means that Aang can create volcanoes, move islands, etc. unless he has shown the ability to do so. As others have said Kyoshi might just have been a stronger earthbender than Aang or maybe it was just an outlier 



> No, you're interpreting what I said to be worse than what I intended.  And are you somehow suggesting that Toph is better at earthbending than Aang in the Avatar State?  Toph created metalbending after extensive time and attempts, and metal had been directly stated to not fall under normal earthbending beforehand.  Toph had no such time and practice with sand, and there is no such statement about sand like there was metal.



Toph IS a better earthbender than Aang, AS or not. But she isn't a more powerful earthbender. You claim it was extensive time but IIRC it wasn't something she sat there studying once she figured out about the 'trace elements' she had no trouble metal bending. Toph is a very skilled earthbender, most likely one of if not the most skilled earthbender in the avatarverse.



> So, he would still not be able to control it regardless of his power?  No-limits fallacy.



No, its not a NLF. The sand is different (sentient) therefore its actually NLF for you to claim that Aang can control sand no matter what. Are you also going to claim that he could earthbend the thing just because the thing is rock (well I think he is)? No I don't think you would. The sand is sentient, the series implies/states that its his mother's "spirit" that lives in the sand and protects him. This is also supposedly why it takes on the shape of his mother so often.


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## Saitomaru (Nov 7, 2012)

> Why would that make a difference once Aang starts controlling it with his chi?



Prove Aang can control sentient sand with chi. The fact that it is sentient means it is no longer classified under anything Aang has controlled before and equalization doesn't cover this, sorry bro. Now that I have shown you that its not normal sand, and all that has been shown in Avatar is people controlling normal elements why don't you prove that there control extends to things that are abnormal in that they are sentient. Stop deflecting and just address this issue.



> Prove that Gaara's sand is abnormal in a way that Aang couldn't control it; that's the very point of my green dye example.  There's no more reason that Gaara's chakra would prevent Aang from controlling sand (other than having more power, which it doesn't) than putting green dye in sand would prevent Aang from controlling it.



Okay: Bending is the ability for an avatarverse character to manipulate one of four elements (a rather rough definition but it'll do). Now they have shown the ability to control pre-existing elements, AKA normal elements, things found in nature. There is one additional form of bending that is called energy bending but that doesn't matter right now. Now, going by feats and even character statements a bender's element must exist (so no creating shit out of nowhere) and in most cases must be within a certain range (varies amongst benders) to be manipulated. Gaara's sand is sentient and controls itself, so it is not normal sand. Sentient sand isn't covered under the list of bendable objects. Random question: Do you believe a bender could bend a logia's elemental form? Explain.



> The reason my outside source was valid to the situation does not apply to the source you tried using.  And yes, the definition still works.  Gaara's sand is still a bunch of rock and minerals.



A bunch of sentient minerals, something that doesn't exist in the avatarverse.



> See above.  Showing a difference does not mean that difference matters.



It does matter if you can't provide proof that Aang can control it. Its a serious difference, not nearly as petty and simple as your dye argument.



> Strawman; I'm not comparing Toph's raw power to Gaara's. Toph's feats establish that sand is earth and can be bent just as easily as earth; how "easy" that is depends on the power level of the individual bender, as with any amount of earth.



You were comparing it. After she had practice she controlled sand easily yet never on the sort of scale that she could control earth. Where are you getting the idea that a bender can control all forms of their element equally as long as its not some super unique element (lightning, metal, etc.). By you're argument a waterbender should be able to control as much ice as they do water, yet that was never shown. Yes, we could make these assumptions going by the fact that nothing to the contrary was stated. But then again we could also dismiss these assumptions because nothing supportive was ever shown/stated.



> Is it ever stated that all bijuus can use bijuu dama? Not all traits apply universally to bijuus; otherwise, they would all be composed of sand (or some other element) or Shukaku wouldn't be made of sand at all.  The ability to interact with earth applies to all earthbenders, and there is no reason to exclude sand from this.



It is implied by B that every Bijuu can use the Bijuu dama. Nothing was stated about their bodies other than them being a massive collection of chakra. So your attempt at debunking the "all bijuu can use the bijuu dama" theory fails. I feel that I should also point out that the Shukaku also has that attack Futon Renkūdan which is very similar to the Bijuu dama with the addition of air. So it could even be considered a sort of elemental variant of the bijuu dama.


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## Wan (Nov 7, 2012)

Saitomaru said:


> It does have to be impressive if you're going to try and use it as grounds to say any one character in Avatar can usurp Gaara's control over his sand.



It's the control over earth in general that's impressive.



> Thanks for these, I'm not sure what's wrong with videos. Oh and these sort of confused me... could you give me a few tips on how to work that site? The pictures themselves didn't seem to be showing anything that you are referring to.



I have to put together the videos myself, and the screenshots seemed to convey what I was saying effectively to anyone who's not blind.  But fine, have a video:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJMAvrz8w5I[/YOUTUBE]



> I'm not quite sure what you expect me to do with that... Do you really expect me to dig through all that when you have not only not provided proof for what I asked but you have also skated around many things I asked for. You throw links at me that require me to do a bunch of searching and actually expect me to do it... HAHAHA If I took this thread seriously I might go through the trouble but with Gaara nerfed so heavily and with you avoiding obvious holes in your argument I'm not even going to bother.
> 
> Like most of your claims?



Fine then, I accept your concession to not find evidence on this point.  Hint: there's a difference between an argument with evidence you don't agree about and flat out refusing to present evidence at all.



> Not doing anything impressive is a lack of impressive control feats. Moving a little sand doesn't equal usurping Gaara's control.



I would agree, in the case of Toph.  I'm not arguing that Toph could overpower Gaara's control of sand, I'm arguing that Toph shows that earthbenders can control sand like any part of earth.



> You mean the very feat that ISN'T impressive either? Hell the high end for that tops out at town level, considering all he's really doing is digging a glorified ditch around a town its not impressive at all.



I meant the "massive amounts of earth" part.



> So you're saying that Earthbenders can control all forms of sand including sand that is obviously not normal and even controls itself... Prove it. The sand shows sentience and acts on its own, you might as well consider it a living thing. I have proven that it is not normal and therefore doesn't line up perfectly with ANY feat from avatar. Now you prove that they can control sentient sand. Prove that they can control an element that is (for all intents and purposes) living.



Yes, because I have proved that earthbenders can control sand and you have not proved that being sentient somehow exempts it from being controlled by earthbending.  You just keep repeating that it's sentient as if that in itself makes it immune to earthbending.



> Gaara's feats show that he can control huge quantities of sand (the town feat) and that he can control sand precisely and in complex ways (the various other feats involving sand clones, weapons, etc.). What does Aang have? Sandbending- Nothing. Earthbending- Digging a ditch and covering himself with rocks. So if we compare them side by side
> 
> Gaara- Town level sand quantities, high degree of control (this refers to the complexity of his control).
> Aang- Town level earth quantities (yet no sand feats), low degree of control (unless you can post him doing something complex).
> ...



Aang would push it back, since complexity has nothing to do with raw power.



> Blame whoever gave the final word on that then. I'm not the one who decided to call it town level, but that's what its considered "officially"



No,  I disagree that there has been a "final word" on it at all.



> lolfiction. Just because it didn't happen in the feat doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened IRL. My point was that the lack of an earthquake should not be considered proof that she was controlling the entire island because an earthquake would have occurred either way. So your attempt at appealing to realism is a double-edged sword.



Wait, so you're flat out disagreeing with what _actually happened_ in Avatar just because it's not what you think should have happened -- not that you've proved it wouldn't happen, just that you don't think it?  Does that mean I get to say Gaara can't harden his sand because it can't be hardened in real life?

I'm appealing to "realism" in order to line up things as they actually happen on the show.  Your "realism" appeal does nothing to explain anything on the show and in fact contradicts the show and is therefore false.



> It is when the best Aang can hope for is to match Gaara's quantity control. At least if he had more complex control you could argue that Aang had a stronger control grain for grain than Gaara did, unfortunately for you he doesn't.



Complex control is just that -- complex control.  It doesn't prove Gaara has stronger control anymore than, say, making an origami swan proves I have stronger hands than someone who can't make one.



> Skills and knowledge don't cover bending feats, and energy only explains how where the power boost comes from. None of that means that Aang can create volcanoes, move islands, etc. unless he has shown the ability to do so. As others have said Kyoshi might just have been a stronger earthbender than Aang or maybe it was just an outlier



Since bending is skill-based as long as you have the power to do the techniques -- yes, yes it does.



> Toph IS a better earthbender than Aang, AS or not. But she isn't a more powerful earthbender. You claim it was extensive time but IIRC it wasn't something she sat there studying once she figured out about the 'trace elements' she had no trouble metal bending. Toph is a very skilled earthbender, most likely one of if not the most skilled earthbender in the avatarverse.



First of all:  no, Toph is not a better earthbender than AS Aang.  She has not made rock bullets, devastated an entire Earth Kingdom fortress, surrounded a town with a chasm, etc.  If she was "better" she could do those things.

She had to sit there figuring out about the trace elements in the first place.  The inability to interact with those trace elements is what made metalbending difficult; no such problem exists with sand.  And once she figured it out, it's not like she could instantly teach it to people even with the sense.  Aang never demonstrated metalbending, and Toph tried teaching a school of earthbenders how to metalbend (in the graphic novel series I cited earlier) but had no success after months of training.



> No, its not a NLF. The sand is different (sentient) therefore its actually NLF for you to claim that Aang can control sand no matter what. Are you also going to claim that he could earthbend the thing just because the thing is rock (well I think he is)? No I don't think you would. The sand is sentient, the series implies/states that its his mother's "spirit" that lives in the sand and protects him. This is also supposedly why it takes on the shape of his mother so often.



Yes, it is a NLF if you say Gaara's sand can't be controlled by Aang even if Aang's control is greater.

I'm saying Aang can control sand unless we are given a reason to think otherwise.  You have provided no reason why "sentience" should stop him from bending sand, it's effectively no different in that regard than if a bunch of green dye was in the sand; it's "different" but just being different proves nothing.  Or would you say Aang can't bend sand with green dye in it?



Saitomaru said:


> Prove Aang can control sentient sand with chi. The fact that it is sentient means it is no longer classified under anything Aang has controlled before and equalization doesn't cover this, sorry bro. Now that I have shown you that its not normal sand, and all that has been shown in Avatar is people controlling normal elements why don't you prove that there control extends to things that are abnormal in that they are sentient. Stop deflecting and just address this issue.



See above.  You haven't proven it to be abnormal in any way that would make a difference.



> Okay: Bending is the ability for an avatarverse character to manipulate one of four elements (a rather rough definition but it'll do). Now they have shown the ability to control pre-existing elements, AKA normal elements, things found in nature. There is one additional form of bending that is called energy bending but that doesn't matter right now. Now, going by feats and even character statements a bender's element must exist (so no creating shit out of nowhere) and in most cases must be within a certain range (varies amongst benders) to be manipulated. Gaara's sand is sentient and controls itself, so it is not normal sand. Sentient sand isn't covered under the list of bendable objects. Random question: Do you believe a bender could bend a logia's elemental form? Explain.



Circular reasoning.  Your assumption that earthbenders cannot control sand that is not normal in the sense of being sentient is included in the logic leading to your inclusion.  I'm asking why sentient sand wouldn't be included under what earthbenders can bend; you've provided no evidence of that.

To answer your question, yes, I do think a bender could control or interact with a logia's elemental form as long as they have enough power.  If the logia is more powerful, than the bender would not be able to control it.



> It does matter if you can't provide proof that Aang can control it. Its a serious difference, not nearly as petty and simple as your dye argument.



"It's a serious difference"?  See, you're just restating your claim as if it proves itself.  It doesn't.  Why is it more serious than the dye example?


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## Wan (Nov 7, 2012)

> You were comparing it. After she had practice she controlled sand easily yet never on the sort of scale that she could control earth. Where are you getting the idea that a bender can control all forms of their element equally as long as its not some super unique element (lightning, metal, etc.). By you're argument a waterbender should be able to control as much ice as they do water, yet that was never shown. Yes, we could make these assumptions going by the fact that nothing to the contrary was stated. But then again we could also dismiss these assumptions because nothing supportive was ever shown/stated.



I'm curious, what do you mean "after she had practice"?  Because she certainly didn't have practice before she went into the desert. 

The idea is self-evident.  An earthbender controls earth; anything with the definition "earth" should be equally controllable to the earthbender unless otherwise stated.  You're taking for granted that Gaara can convert the same amount of ground into the amount of sand that he's shown, correct?  What if the ground is different?  What if there's more clay in the ground?  Do we just assume that Gaara can't convert so much of that ground into sand?



> It is implied by B that every Bijuu can use the Bijuu dama. Nothing was stated about their bodies other than them being a massive collection of chakra. So your attempt at debunking the "all bijuu can use the bijuu dama" theory fails. I feel that I should also point out that the Shukaku also has that attack Futon Renkūdan which is very similar to the Bijuu dama with the addition of air. So it could even be considered a sort of elemental variant of the bijuu dama.



Can you show me where B states this?


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## Foxve (Nov 7, 2012)

Why is this *still* being debated? Gaara wins. That's it. Oman when you equalized attack speed (especially projetile attack speed) you pretty much destroyed your so called premise of a "fair" fight.


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## Wan (Nov 7, 2012)

So, if Gaara were to fight someone who's as fast or faster than him, would that be an unfair fight as well?


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## Qinglong (Nov 7, 2012)

And that would be the OP's fault for making a bad matchup.

Then trying to say the fight is 'fair' after the opposition has been nerfed 2 or 3 times.

You do know Gaara is pretty much fighting people as fast or faster than him in his own verse all the time, right?


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## Wan (Nov 7, 2012)

So Gaara vs Gaara would be unfair?


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## Qinglong (Nov 7, 2012)

No that'd just be stupid.

I shouldn't have to explain why.


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## Wan (Nov 7, 2012)

I asked if Gaara fighting someone _as fast_ or faster than Gaara would be unfair; the response I got implied the answer was "yes".  Gaara is as fast as himself, so that means fighting himself would somehow be unfair.  According to the answer I got.


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## Expelsword (Nov 7, 2012)

Gaara is extremely faster than Aang.
Most of the people Gaara fights do not outclass him by nearly as much (I think).


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## Qinglong (Nov 7, 2012)

No the answer you got was nerfing someone beyond what is generally done in is laughable and no one is going to take a match where the OP claims the opposing side wins after the opposition is nerfed so much serious.


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## Saitomaru (Nov 7, 2012)

Okay I've grown tired of this thread, it was fun back when I thought you were just trolling but now that it has become painfully obvious that you are being serious I feel as though this is going to go nowhere. So I'll just summarize everything, be warned I may miss some points because I'm not bothering to actually quote the posts.

Gaara's sand is sentient, because of that it isn't normal sand and if you think it is you have a really warped sense of what is and isn't realistic. Now since you don't seem to be arguing that Gaara's sand is normal I challenge you to provide a feat that proves that characters in the avatarverse (not just Aang, I'll accept any of them right now) can control "magical" sand. You keep telling me to prove that it matters but unless you can prove that their control extends to things that don't exist in their verse you might as well concede.

It isn't a NLF if Gaara's sand isn't covered under ANY of their feats or even hyped character statements. Literally nothing in the Avatarverse even hints that they could control "magical" sentient sand.

Toph is a better earthbender in that she has more skilled feats. I never said she was a more powerful bender, but she is more skilled. She can metalbend last I checked in order for a bender to be able to perform advanced bending feats (I.e- Metalbending, lightning bending, etc.) Aang hasn't shown metalbending so by virtue of that he isn't as skilled an earthbender as Toph.

You have proven that regular sand falls under the list of bendable materials for earthbenders. It being abnormal means you must provide proof if you are going to claim that it is just as bendable as regular sand. And just before you say it, I'm asking you to provide proof that the earthbenders can prove elements that are abnormal or that don't exist in their verse.

I am not disagreeing with what happened in the series. The end result was that the island was moved. What's up for debate is the method. You tried to prove your method by saying that had she done the other method an earthquake would have occurred. I pointed out that an earhtquake would have occurred using either method and now instead of actually debating you're trying to deflect attention by making it seem like I'm doing something that I'm not. The fact is that an earthquake did not occur this does, you tried to use this as proof unfortunately it doesn't prove anything. So your attempt to appeal to realism was a flop, just face it.

I restated my claim because not only does it throw a wrench in your argument it also has yet to be addressed by you. You either deflect attention, trying to use your dye argument as a counter, or just simply ignore it. This is getting old. The general consensus is that Gaara wins (this is not an appeal to majority its just an observation).

So to reiterate: unless you can prove Aang can control a substance that is completely different than anything he has been shown to control before you might as well concede. Its nice that you can toss terms around but sadly they do little to help when there is no substance to your argument. Also, if two equal but opposite forces collide one doesn't just push the other back. So if Gaara and Aang clashed and we were to assume they were equal they'd just cancel each other out; Physics, look it up.

As for your questions regarding the matches with Gaara:

If Gaara were to be put up against someone faster than him it wouldn't be unfair unless they massively outclassed him. If movement speed was the only thing preventing it from being a fair match up than speed equalization would fix the problem nicely. Unfortunately in the case of this thread Aang is so outclassed there is no purpose to this thread. But as others have said, the one at fault would be the creator of the thread which in this case is you. So shame on you. You didn't just equalize movement speed, you also nerfed his attack speed, and your assumption (that earthbenders can control sentient sand) nerfs Gaara even further. What were your intentions when you made this thread? It obviously wasn't to see who would win a match, nor was it to see who is strongest/fastest/most durable. So what was it? Were you hoping that people would be so disgusted with this thread that they wouldn't bother replying so that Aang could get a win just because no one contested it? This is like putting the DBverse against the marvel verse but equalizing stat for every character in marvel with Hercule's stats. Its stupid and unneeded. OBD has enough bad threads, we don't need another. And people say the 2012 members are bad...


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## Emperor Joker (Nov 7, 2012)

all right I think this thread's gone on long enough


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