# Only Madara and Sasuke can defeat Itachi.



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 20, 2011)

*"An eye for an eye, to defeat an Uchiha, they needed the sharingan..." - Madara to Sasuke *

Based on this quote, only Kakashi, Sasuke and Madara can defeat Itachi. 

*"Your body is well suited for sharingan...but only the one with same bloodline as me can defeat me." - Itachi to Kakashi*

But based on this quote only Sasuke and Madara can defeat Itachi.


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## Puppetry (Apr 20, 2011)

Pein disagrees.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 20, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> Pein disagrees.



No he doesn't.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Apr 20, 2011)

Hashirama who beat the strongest Uchiha who had Kyuubi with him also disagrees  Why do people take those hyperboll statements literaly is beyond me 
According to this kind of logic the lightning sword of the 7 swordsman >>>>> all because it can break through any deffence according to hyperboll statements


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 20, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Hashirama who beat the strongest Uchiha who had Kyuubi with him also disagrees  Why do people take those hyperboll statements literaly is beyond me
> According to this kind of logic the lightning sword of the 7 swordsman >>>>> all because it can break through any deffence according to hyperboll statements



Itachi Hype = Feats.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Apr 20, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Itachi Hype = Feats.



lol Feats, what feats ?  Itachi is the single most overrated character in the manga, his fanbase constantly usess no limits fallacy statemts and hyperboll from the manga that dont count shit 
Here is the list of the people who can school Itachi

Raikage
Tsuchikage
Minato
Hashirama
Prime Uchiha Madara
SM Jiraiya
Naruto
Killer Bee 
Tobi
Nagato


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## Puppetry (Apr 20, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> No he doesn't.



Itachi>Pain? Well, there goes your credibility.


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## Jak N Blak (Apr 20, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> lol Feats, what feats ?  Itachi is the single most overrated character in the manga, his fanbase constantly usess no limits fallacy statemts and hyperboll from the manga that dont count shit
> Here is the list of the people who can school Itachi
> 
> Raikage
> ...



LOL, he's been SKOOLED!


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## Snowman Sharingan (Apr 20, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> lol Feats, what feats ?  Itachi is the single most overrated character in the manga, his fanbase constantly usess no limits fallacy statemts and hyperboll from the manga that dont count shit
> Here is the list of the people who can school Itachi
> 
> Raikage
> ...



Haha uhoh. I predict a


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## tori22 (Apr 20, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> lol Feats, what feats ?  Itachi is the single most overrated character in the manga, his fanbase constantly usess no limits fallacy statemts and hyperboll from the manga that dont count shit
> Here is the list of the people who can school Itachi
> 
> Raikage
> ...



LMAO ITACHI GOT SCHOOLED! But naruto and B wouldn't school Itachi, naruto would probably have just as much trouble as sasuke did, while b would have a tough time.


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## Deadway (Apr 20, 2011)

lol'd. Ibuse the summon could rip Itachi a new one. Come at me.


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## T-Bag (Apr 20, 2011)

Only a uchiha (very skilled) can beat Itachi. Manga canon. Yes. Any body else gets shat on.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 20, 2011)

*Is this what the KL has turned into?*


Hashirama would rape the living shit out of Itachi and Minato would at least equal him or defeat him in combat. Pain would lose less than three bodies fighting Itachi before his shitty-ass stamina befalls him.


_ at OP using incredibly fallacious statements as an attempt to create a thread that has absolutely no value, let alone prove his own arguments_.


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## LostSelf (Apr 20, 2011)

Madara (If i recall correctly) also told Sasuke that only an Uchiha can defeat another Uchiha.

Ask Raikage, Bee, Lee and soon ask Naruto and let's see their answers


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## Ezekial (Apr 20, 2011)

Only Madara can beat Itachi, probs Bee and Naru aswell 
Lots can beat Sasuke though, Bee schooled him twice,
I doubt Edo Itachi will be as powerful as he was pre death


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## T-Bag (Apr 20, 2011)

ATastyMuffin said:


> *Is this what the KL has turned into?*
> 
> 
> Hashirama would rape the living shit out of Itachi and Minato would at least equal him or defeat him in combat. Pain would lose less than three bodies fighting Itachi before his shitty-ass stamina befalls him.
> ...



whoa whoa whoa. Hashirama defeat Itachi? Based on what exactly? calm down here.


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## gawsome (Apr 20, 2011)

That and a little virus called HIV.

Oh and a rock. Nearly apaper too (Madara needed senju powers to survive Konan). God knows what scissors would do.

Not to forget plot.

Or senju.


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## kazuri (Apr 20, 2011)

Because the sharingan can keep you from being poisoned while you're asleep, or any other infinite amount of ways of being outsmarted.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 20, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> whoa whoa whoa. Hashirama defeat Itachi? Based on what exactly? calm down here.






_You mean how Hashirama stomped Madara's ass to the point where the latter feels his severe injuries from over half a century ago?_

*If you're going to imply that a MS Itachi > EMS Madara + Kyuubi, are you even worth debating?*

Don't give me the same reheated bullshit about Madara losing on _purpose_, if that made even the slightest ounce of logical sense, why would Madara have his plans backtracked to over 50 years later than he originally planned, lose infinite chances of destroying Konoha, and his eye powers?


*If Hashirama can beat EMS Madara fairly, Itachi stands no chance.*


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## Gilgamesh (Apr 20, 2011)

> An eye for an eye, to defeat an Uchiha, they needed the sharingan



Shodai disagrees with you


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## tori22 (Apr 20, 2011)

ATastyMuffin said:


> _You mean how Hashirama stomped Madara's ass to the point where the latter feels his severe injuries from over half a century ago?_
> 
> *If you're going to imply that a MS Itachi > EMS Madara + Kyuubi, are you even worth debating?*
> 
> ...



I second this notion.


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## Tobirama Senju (Apr 20, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> Pein disagrees.



pretty sure he does, nough said.

and the other fella said enough about hashirama, which is well, pure truth so i'll spare my self the repeatin process


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## Uchihα Itαchi (Apr 20, 2011)

At this point, only an Uchiha can defeat Edo Itachi. Sasuke won't, of course, maybe Madara will? But that doesn't make any sense, Faildara would get defeated quite easily.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 20, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> Itachi>Pain? Well, there goes your credibility.


*
-snip-*

At this moment Pain is dead. Nagato is on Itachi side, so there is no one alive who can take down Itachi other than Madara and Sasuke.


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## Judecious (Apr 20, 2011)

Pain
Hashirama
Minato
Naruto
Bee
Jiraiya
Hiruzen
Hanzo(no conuter to poison)
Tobirama


Might have more


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 20, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> lol Feats, what feats ?  Itachi is the single most overrated character in the manga, his fanbase constantly usess no limits fallacy statemts and hyperboll from the manga that dont count shit
> Here is the list of the people who can school Itachi
> 
> Raikage < Tsukiyomi
> ...



Answer is in the quote. :quiet


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## Lelouch71 (Apr 20, 2011)

Hashirama, Pain, Minato, Hiruzen (based on hype), Killerbee, and most likely Naruto could defeat Itachi now.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 20, 2011)

Lelouch71 said:


> Hashirama, Pain, Minato, Hiruzen (based on hype), Killerbee, and most likely Naruto could defeat Itachi now.



Hashirama, Pain, Minato and Hiruzen is dead.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 20, 2011)

Itachi canonically admitted inferiority to Jiraiya, saying the best he could do is a stalemate. His so called 'invincible jutsu' Susano'o doesn't have the feats to boast it. Pain, Minato, SM Naruto, NTCM Naruto, A, Bee, MS Sasuke, Hashirama, Madara, Tobirama, Prime Hiruzen...

Lots of people can beat Itachi.


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## Bane (Apr 20, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> whoa whoa whoa. Hashirama defeat Itachi? Based on what exactly? calm down here.



Based on Madara getting his ass handed to him by Hashirama while Madara had the EMS and the Kyuubi under his control, based on that.


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## Judecious (Apr 20, 2011)

So MS Itachi>RM Naruto?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 20, 2011)

Judecious said:


> So MS Itachi>RM Naruto?


Look at his Tier List. He puts MS Itachi above both RM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Above SM Naruto and MS Sasuke...


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## Ezekial (Apr 20, 2011)

Darth Sidious said:


> Shodai disagrees with you



How do you know it wasnt Madara vs Shodai + Entire leaf?


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## Crow Master Apprentice (Apr 20, 2011)

It's threads like this that make Itachi so hated.


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## tori22 (Apr 20, 2011)

SuperEzekial19 said:


> How do you know it wasnt Madara vs Shodai + Entire leaf?



I have no way to clearly counter this except for saying that it WASN'T. There was no clear quote that said that they were ALONE but at the valley of the end Madara fought the Shodai I think it's pretty safe to assume that no one else was aiding the Shodai or Madara besides maybe some summons.

Anyway, guys seriously this is retarded Itachi is nowhere near the best you guys are all overhyping him Edo Itachi will probably get his ass whooped by naruto when he arrives now please lets end this stupid discussion.


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## Jak N Blak (Apr 20, 2011)

Kabutoooooooo can defeat him...
Thread./

Killer Bee can do it thanks to Samehada- Suck up Susanoo and Ama...Itachi's Tsukyomi F's up your real world-time perception  but in the dream Bee will have time to communicate with Eight so that means he wont have to go through 72 hours worth of torture, lol...maybe just 1 minute.
Raikage would humble him depending on the situation.
7(and 8 ) Gated guy can do it depending on the situation.
Gaara can do it if he's in a desert.
Oonoki can do depending on the situation
Mei can keep Edo Itachi down for eternity thanks to Lava release(it hardens rather quickly lets not forget)
Naruto can if Shima and Fugasaku are by his side(they should know everything sharingan related)
Kakashi can if he decides to one-shot with Kamui like he planned to do to Madara
Shikamaru can if you give him 24 hours worth of thinking and a team of his chosing.

I ownnnnnnnnn


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## Puppetry (Apr 20, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Maybe you should read like most people here before you post.



Flamebait. Concession accepted. It also doesn't help you're dead wrong in this instance. 



> At this moment Pain is dead.





†_Camorra_† said:


> lol Feats, what feats ?  Itachi is the single most overrated character in the manga, his fanbase constantly usess no limits fallacy statemts and hyperboll from the manga that dont count shit
> Here is the list of the people who can school Itachi
> 
> Raikage
> ...





Il Void said:


> lol'd. Ibuse the summon could rip Itachi a new one. Come at me.





ATastyMuffin said:


> *Is this what the KL has turned into?*
> 
> 
> Hashirama would rape the living shit out of Itachi and Minato would at least equal him or defeat him in combat. Pain would lose less than three bodies fighting Itachi before his shitty-ass stamina befalls him.
> ...





ATastyMuffin said:


> _You mean how Hashirama stomped Madara's ass to the point where the latter feels his severe injuries from over half a century ago?_
> 
> *If you're going to imply that a MS Itachi > EMS Madara + Kyuubi, are you even worth debating?*
> 
> ...





Darth Sidious said:


> Shodai disagrees with you





Hanzo Hasashi said:


> pretty sure he does, nough said.
> 
> and the other fella said enough about hashirama, which is well, pure truth so i'll spare my self the repeatin process





Judecious said:


> Pain
> Hashirama
> Minato
> Naruto
> ...





Lelouch71 said:


> Hashirama, Pain, Minato, Hiruzen (based on hype), Killerbee, and most likely Naruto could defeat Itachi now.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi canonically admitted inferiority to Jiraiya, saying the best he could do is a stalemate. His so called 'invincible jutsu' Susano'o doesn't have the feats to boast it. Pain, Minato, SM Naruto, NTCM Naruto, A, Bee, MS Sasuke, Hashirama, Madara, Tobirama, Prime Hiruzen...
> 
> Lots of people can beat Itachi.



Hashirama, Tobirama, Prime Hiruzen, Pain, Minato, Jiraiya, and Hanzo are all dead. Prime Madara doesn't exist anymore. Yet here, we see numerous people discussing and bringing them up. 

Now, if these are all misconceptions, than the only logical conclusion is that you didn't write a clear enough OP. So, please examine your own claims, which are infinitely more ridiculous than mine. 



> Nagato is on Itachi side, so there is _*no one alive *_who can take down Itachi other than Madara and Sasuke.



I am positive that SM/RM Naruto can defeat Itachi. But that's just me being logical.
*
-snip-*


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 20, 2011)

SuperEzekial19 said:


> How do you know it wasnt Madara vs Shodai + Entire leaf?



  


This is a_ terrible _burden of proof fallacy you keep shoving up other posters' asses - *YOU* claimed that Madara had to fight against Hashirama and the entire village, therefore *YOU* have to prove it.

EDIT: Hashirama _and the entire village_


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## Gin Ichimaru (Apr 20, 2011)

The only proper response for a thread like this is:


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## GunX2 (Apr 20, 2011)

Any thread with Itachi in the title always turns to flame bait.


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## tori22 (Apr 20, 2011)

I dont hate itachi I just hate his fanboys who think he's the strongest.


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## Santí (Apr 20, 2011)

OP doesn't realize that the Uchiha are a bunch of narcissist and talk out of their ass often?

They think they're better than everyone and consider anyone who isn't Uchiha lesser than they are. Sort of like France.


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## crisler (Apr 20, 2011)

*i kinda agree.*

first of all, itachi's greatest and his first ms skill is tsukuyomi, much stronger than sasuke's or anyother single genjutsu that we've seen

we've never seen anyone who's perfectly counter this besides sasuke, who was 1)an uchiha who madara/itachi refered to (and especially sasuke was special), 2)itachi was never intending for the kill and he did it multiple times to sasuke which would've have helped sasuke go through it

although we can claim that kakashi was the only one to fall for it, it's been mentioned multiple times how itachi's tsuku was special and that it isn't becuz of ms but his strength in genjutsu

i'm not saying itachi can solo everyone, nor am i saying his genjutsu is the strongest. what i'm saying is, there is no one who can counter itachi's tsukuyomi besides sasuke and madara who was stated to have pure uchiha blood mentioned by itachi. 

i'm saying this becuz genjutsu as strong as itachi's tsuku is strong enough to one-shot kill or damage like 70% of his opponent in a shot. alrighT?

besides itachi;s tsuku i don't think he's invulnerable, but his tsuku, ITACHI's tsuku makes him pretty godly if met with one single opponent. it's also why i think pein > nagato if he's fighting itachi. as he said, no single man can defeat itachi's tsuku without pure uchiha blood+  sharingan, thus i agree.


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## Meruem (Apr 20, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Here is the list of the people who can school Itachi
> Raikage
> Tsuchikage
> Minato
> ...


Raikage has no genjutsu resistance feats and isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, Itachi can beat him.

The Tsuchikage is featless and you just said not to rely on hyperboles, his only hype is a hyperbole so...

Minato can beat him.

Hashirama is featless unless you think Edo Hashirama can beat him which is ridiculous.

Prime Madara is featless.

Jiraiya can't beat Itachi.

Naruto with RM can for sure but pre-RM if he starts in base, I doubt it.

Killer Bee has no counter to Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, or Susano'o so I highly doubt that.

Tobi can beat him.

Nagato with Pain Rikudo can for sure.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 20, 2011)

Santisimo said:


> OP doesn't realize that the Uchiha are a bunch of narcissist and talk out of their ass often?
> 
> They think they're better than everyone and consider anyone who isn't Uchiha lesser than they are. Sort of like France.



But unlike france the Uchiha sit on top of the shinobi world. 

When is the last time france been a super power?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 20, 2011)

†_Camorra_† said:


> lol Feats, what feats ?  Itachi is the single most overrated character in the manga, his fanbase constantly usess no limits fallacy statemts and hyperboll from the manga that dont count shit
> Here is the list of the people who can school Itachi
> 
> Raikage
> ...



Raikage=Genjutsu.

Tsuchikage=Genjutsu.

Minato=Genjutsu.(Even if you go based on Hype, it can still be debated) 

Hashirama=Yes he can based on hype.

Prime Uchiha Madara=Yes.

SM Jiraiya=Im with itachi on this one, if you want a explanation just go to one of the many Itachi vs jiraiya debates.

Naruto= Naruto beating Itachi, thats very funny he gets Genjutsu rapped.

Killer Bee=Black Flames/Susanoo

Tobi=Maybe he has a good chance, but i can see it go either way.

Nagato= Pain>Everybody(Joking) so yes he can beat itachi.

*
General Question*: why do people always say Itachi and Sasuke have low stamina? I just don't understand it, a Elite Jounin Kakashi can only use his MS twice and hes bed ridden for a week. Itachi and Sasuke can spam other jutsu's, along with their MS sharingan moves quite a few times. They might not have Kisame Level chakra, but by no means do they have low stamina/chakra.


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## Santí (Apr 20, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> But unlike france the Uchiha sit on top of the shinobi world.
> 
> When is the last time france been a super power?



Uchiha are dead and got pwned by The Senju. Just like the French got pwned by America.

I'd also like to point out that Might Gai came up with an effective way to counter and evades Itachi's genjutsu in part 1.


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## JiraiyaTheGallant (Apr 20, 2011)

The "Only an Uchiha can defeat an Uchiha" quote has been contradicted and proven wrong time and time again.

OP is trolling.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 20, 2011)

Santisimo said:


> Uchiha are dead and got pwned by The Senju. Just like the French got pwned by America.


The Uchiha's maybe an endangered species, but the few alive >>>>>>>>>> your favorite character and then some.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 20, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> The Uchiha's maybe an endangered species, but the few alive >>>>>>>>>> your favorite character and then some.



This is true, unless his Favorite character is Madara, 1st Hokage, Pain, Third hokage, maybe even the 2nd Hokage-*(Based on Fan-boy wank)*


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## Santí (Apr 20, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> The Uchiha's maybe an endangered species, but the few alive >>>>>>>>>> your favorite character and then some.





RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> This is true, unless his Favorite character is Madara, 1st Hokage, Pain, Third hokage, maybe even the 2nd Hokage-*(Based on Fan-boy wank)*



Even better.


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## Deadway (Apr 20, 2011)

^Sasuke lost that fight right there.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 20, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> This is true, unless his Favorite character is Madara, 1st Hokage, Pain, Third hokage, maybe even the 2nd Hokage-*(Based on Fan-boy wank)*



Madara isn't a Uchiha? 

I could have sworn, his name had Uchiha in front of it.

Need to go back and confirm this from the manga................................


(goes back and rereads the last 150 chapters)

Yea I'm sure.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 20, 2011)

Santisimo said:


> Even better.



 Yes that will work as well.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Madara isn't a Uchiha?
> 
> I could have sworn, his name had Uchiha in front of it.
> 
> ...



Madara is dead(He is in the Six Coffin), i mean the person pretending to be Madara.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 20, 2011)

Santisimo said:


> Even better.



That's great, but I think I got one better.

Raikage before his fight with Sasuke.

Narutoverse

Raikage after.

Link removed

Can you spot what's missing????? I sure can't.

No. wait, wait I got another one

Can you spot the Raikage
Link removed

I almost didn't see him behind that pillar and C. What ever happened to getting back to destroying Sasuke?

Link removed

"Stop the BLEEDING SHI"

Wow I love going down memory lane. You are quite fun good sir.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 20, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> Yes that will work as well.
> 
> 
> *
> Madara is dead(He is in the Six Coffin), i mean the person pretending to be Madara.*



Really now? Never knew that was confirmed, need to start writing this down in my Naruto note book. 

Yea it's going to go write under Madara, is not a Uchiha.

And above my list of favorite Uchiha, which includes UCHIHA Madara.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 20, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Really now? Never knew that was confirmed, need to start writing this down in my Naruto note book.
> 
> Yea it's going to go write under Madara, is not a Uchiha.
> 
> And above my list of favorite Uchiha, which includes UCHIHA Madara.



You just wait and see, kabuto has a nice surprise for this man pretending to be Madara.


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## Santí (Apr 20, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> That's great, but I think I got one better.
> 
> Raikage before his fight with Sasuke.
> 
> ...



Let's play a fun game of _Where's Sasuke?_


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 20, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> You just wait and see, kabuto has a nice surprise for this man pretending to be Madara.



Kabuto is having trouble preventing his edo's from killing themselves at the moment. I suggest he gets some plot relevancy first, besides being the next person on Sasuke/Naruto's hit list before even addressing the invincible immortal that is Madara.



> Santisimo said:
> 
> 
> > Let's play a fun game of _Where's Sasuke?_
> ...


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## tori22 (Apr 20, 2011)

tedrocks123 said:


> Raikage has no genjutsu resistance feats and isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, Itachi can beat him.
> 
> The Tsuchikage is featless and you just said not to rely on hyperboles, his only hype is a hyperbole so...
> 
> ...



As long as they don't look into his eyes like a noob then they won't fall under his Genjutsu. And Itachi ADMITTED THAT Jiraiya was too strong for him during his first appearance.


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## Joakim3 (Apr 20, 2011)

These who *WILL* beat Itachi based on *feats*
*Pain:* for obvious reasons
*Hanzo:* Zero defense for Poison

People who *can* beat Itachi
*Madara:* S/T will cause HUGE problems
*Minato:* same reason as Madara
*SM Jirayia:* read the threads
*MS Sasuke:* he might be able to pull a win
*A:* its debatble if he's immune to genjustu
*Killer Bee:* Hachibi _might_ be able to break him out of genjustu

Hype is a different story....there are a shit load of people based on hype that can beat Itachi


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## Jak N Blak (Apr 20, 2011)

Santisimo said:


> Let's play a fun game of _Where's Sasuke?_



Lol c'mon now. Those two are equals if they fight. Raikage cant beat Sasuke unless Sasuke isnt in Susanoo and Sasuke cant defeat Raikage unless he's at base.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 20, 2011)

IMO only Sasuke, Naruto, Tobi, or Kabuto can beat Edo Itachi singlehandedly, and I'm not even sure about Kabuto or Naruto depening on what Itachi's implanted crow does.


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## dungsi27 (Apr 20, 2011)

Itachi had been a liar since the beginning of the manga.Both his fans and J-mans fans have been using selective reading in their argument('only an Uchiha can defeat Itachi' for his fan, and 'even with your help(Kisame)I wouldnt be able to defeat J-man' in the case of J-mans fans).
The Uchiha is an arrogant clan who talk highly of themselves every time.And throughout this manga their words have been proven wrong may times.


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## tori22 (Apr 20, 2011)

Guys the reason Sasuke survived that "Batisma Bomb" was because he could use his susanoo, but that put a TREMENDOUS strain on his eyes. That's itachi's weakness, he's practically blind.

If he really uses Amaterasu and Susanoo that much then it'll end up fighting someone like this:


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 20, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Lol c'mon now. Those two are equals if they fight. Raikage cant beat Sasuke unless Sasuke isnt in Susanoo and Sasuke cant defeat Raikage unless he's at base.



Didn't Sasuke defeat Sasuke in his shroud? Sasuke was certainly getting the better of Raikage in his enraged state, that is undeniable. Anytime you have to traded limbs for bruises, there is a problem.

Raikage in a none enraged state could certainly fair better, however Sasuke has gotten stronger sense then, who was holding back during their initial fight regardless.


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## Jak N Blak (Apr 20, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Didn't Sasuke defeat Sasuke in his shroud? Sasuke was certainly getting the better of Raikage in his enraged state, that is undeniable. Anytime you have to traded limbs for bruises, there is a problem.
> 
> Raikage in a none enraged state could certainly fair better, however Sasuke has gotten stronger sense then, who was holding back during their initial fight regardless.



Well I dont know about him holding back...lol...other than that, I get what you're saying


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## Skywalker (Apr 20, 2011)

Another quality thread.


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## Santí (Apr 20, 2011)

> I think he would be on that panel, but I can find a better picture.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



Although Raikage would have without a doubt lost his leg performing that guillotine leg-drop, it's quite obvious that Sasuke would have been crushed and finished if Gaara had not stepped in.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 20, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Well I dont know about him holding back...lol...other than that, I get what you're saying



He did not have a stronger Susano, under his belt.



Santisimo said:


> Although Raikage would have without a doubt lost his leg performing that guillotine leg-drop, it's quite obvious that Sasuke would have been crushed and finished if Gaara had not stepped in.



How is it obvious? I see nothing of the sort in this panel.

Link removed

And how did you figure Raikage would only lose a leg? Notice that fire was aimed at his entire rear end.

Link removed

The only one confirmed, to have come out badly in that exchange is the Raikage. Unless of course you have sufficient evidence to prove other whys.


----------



## Uchihα Itαchi (Apr 20, 2011)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Look at his Tier List. He puts MS Itachi above both RM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Above SM Naruto and *MS Sasuke*...



Don't you think healthy Itachi would handle MS Sasuke quite fine? He lost because he cared about Sasuke, it was all a plot, and he was blind and sick.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 20, 2011)

ItachiGaara said:


> Don't you think healthy Itachi would handle MS Sasuke quite fine? He lost because he cared about Sasuke, it was all a plot, and he was blind and sick.



Uh I don't think MS Sasuke ever fought Itachi, thus your excuses do not cut it.


----------



## Bahamut Slayer (Apr 20, 2011)

Some argue that 'Hashirama is dead.'

The point was to prove 'Only an Uchiha can defeat an Uchiha' was not true, the fact that Hashirama did win against Madara. Pretty much that.

As to the entire point of this thread, I'm sure Kishimoto would give some kind of plot reason on how and why a non-Uchiha will defeat Edo Itachi because I fail to see how Sasuke and Madara would even want to take out Edo Itachi in the first place. When this does happen, I'm sure by then people would go 'That wasn't a real fight! The real Itachi would have done much better than Edo Itachi. This is like Edo Sasori to Sasori and Edo Deidara to Deidara, Kishi fails to portray them.'


----------



## Mangeykou Byakugan (Apr 20, 2011)

tedrocks123 said:


> Raikage has no genjutsu resistance feats and isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, Itachi can beat him.
> 
> The Tsuchikage is featless and you just said not to rely on hyperboles, his only hype is a hyperbole so...
> 
> ...



Yep. I agree w/ this


To add on to this, Itachi is probably stronger than 95-99% of the Narutoverse


Madara, Minato, Pain, EMS Sasuke, RM Naruto, and Shodaime are stronger than Itachi

Tsuchikage, Danzo, Jiriaya, and Bee put up a fight though


----------



## Eternal Pein (Apr 20, 2011)

Didn't bother reading the thread because I know this is a troll thread


----------



## The Uchiha Hawk (Apr 21, 2011)

The konoha elders certainly seemed to buy into the whole "only a sharingan can defeat a sharingan" thing since they felt like  Itachi was the only person in the village who could take on the rest of the uchiha. I always wondered though why he was sent alone. I know they didn't want others to know that they gave the orders, but  the other ninja could have worn disguises or something. So why not send a couple of your other best ninja too?


----------



## Forlong (Apr 21, 2011)

Hashirama disagrees.


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## dungsi27 (Apr 21, 2011)

The Uchiha Hawk said:


> The konoha elders certainly seemed to buy into the whole "only a sharingan can defeat a sharingan" thing since they felt like  Itachi was the only person in the village who could take on the rest of the uchiha. I always wondered though why he was sent alone. I know they didn't want others to know that they gave the orders, but  the other ninja could have worn disguises or something. So why not send a couple of your other best ninja too?



Actually the Konoha elders werent impressed much by that statement since they were able to keep the entire Uchiha clan in check for such a long time.
And the logic there is very simple:You want to get rid of a gang,and theres someone from inside that clan whos willing to do that dirty job for you for free,then why not let him do that?Either way Konoha wouldnt lose.
Even if they sent some ninjas in disguise,there would still be some risk that they would be found out,and there goes the reputation of the Senju clan!


----------



## Uchihα Itαchi (Apr 21, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Uh I don't think MS Sasuke ever fought Itachi, thus your excuses do not cut it.



I don't think so either. Though I _believe_ that MS Itachi is stronger than MS Sasuke and I _believe_ that Itachi could handle MS Sasuke fine. I don't make excuses, but I'm predicting, just like you're predicting that MS Sasuke is stronger.


----------



## The Uchiha Hawk (Apr 21, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> Actually the Konoha elders werent impressed much by that statement since they were able to keep the entire Uchiha clan in check for such a long time.
> And the logic there is very simple:You want to get rid of a gang,and theres someone from inside that clan whos willing to do that dirty job for you for free,then why not let him do that?Either way Konoha wouldnt lose.
> Even if they sent some ninjas in disguise,there would still be some risk that they would be found out,and there goes the reputation of the Senju clan!



Keep the clan in check? You make it sound as though they had been keeping the uchiha in line by force or something. As far as we know fugaku's rebellion was the first one, until then the uchiha had just grit their teeth and accepted their discrimination out of loyalty to the village. That is until finally they decided  that enough was enough.  I was also trying to point out how ridiculous it was that they sent Itachi to fight the uchiha alone. Without Madara's help Itachi's mission would have been a failure. Sasuke realized that there must have been someone with Itachi that night simply because there was no way he could have taken on all of the clan himself.


----------



## dungsi27 (Apr 21, 2011)

The Uchiha Hawk said:


> Keep the clan in check? You make it sound as though they had been keeping the uchiha in line by force or something. As far as we know fugaku's rebellion was the first one, until then the uchiha had just grit their teeth and accepted their discrimination out of loyalty to the village. That is until finally they decided  that enough was enough.  I was also trying to point out how ridiculous it was that they sent Itachi to fight the uchiha alone. Without Madara's help Itachi's mission would have been a failure. Sasuke realized that there must have been someone with Itachi that night simply because there was no way he could have taken on all of the clan himself.



Madara said that before Fugaku some of the Uchiha had already realized the situation and followed his path.
However Fugaku's rebellion was the first time the entire clan got involved.
Even Madara,as arrogant as he is,never said that had the rebellion actually occured the Uchiha could have won.THe reason Konoha elders didnt want it to happen was because such a rebellion would weaken the village,thus giving a chance for other villages to attack Konoha.
And actually it wasnt vital for Itachi to wipe out the entire clan.IT was great enough if Itachi could just weaken the clan,and killed the key leaders of the rebellion.Itachi might die in the process,and Danzo wouldnt care at all(or in fact he would be even happier)


----------



## Addy (Apr 21, 2011)

"only uchiha can kill uchiha + rock"


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Apr 21, 2011)

So true..so true..


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> Flamebait. Concession accepted. It also doesn't help you're dead wrong in this instance.



That is so original.  
You think everything I say is flamebait. 



Puppetry said:


> Hashirama, Tobirama, Prime Hiruzen, Pain, Minato, Jiraiya, and Hanzo are all dead. Prime Madara doesn't exist anymore. Yet here, we see numerous people discussing and bringing them up.



Well, lets see, most of those people you quoted are known to be Itachi hater.  



Puppetry said:


> Now, if these are all misconceptions, than the only logical conclusion is that you didn't write a clear enough OP. So, please examine your own claims, which are infinitely more ridiculous than mine.



Way to go admitting your post is ridiculous. Firstly read the title before entering a topic. The title is "Only Madara and Sasuke can defeat Itachi" meaning they are the only Uchiha alive currently. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. 

Then if you read the OP, I stated Itachi's comment, which means only Uchiha can defeat Uchiha. By reading the title and that quote anyone could figure this out. But because of your off topic post people thought this mis-read this thread. 



Puppetry said:


> I am positive that SM/RM Naruto can defeat Itachi. But that's just me being logical.
> 
> Your revenge neg is noted, and is a blemish upon your thoroughly stained character.



SM/RM Naruto has not shown a counter to Yata Mirror or Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu, Itachi's strongest jutsu's. So its not logical.

If you think everytime I neg you its a revenge neg and everytime I reply to you its a flamebait then I suggest you place me on ignore list and stop trading post with me. You go in battledome and post all you like about Databook = Manga and that Sasori > Itachi. Just stop trading post with me and have anything to do with me. This is so you stop crying out I revenge negged you or flamebaited everytime I disagree with your opinion.

Either just deal with it or agree to disagree.


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (Apr 21, 2011)

People seriously, Itachi has only hype with absolute 0 feats  Staments such as Yata mirror being able to block all attacks and Amaterasu being as hot as the sun are total bullcrapp. Even some of the most hard core Itachi fans can admitt that Itachi is inferiour to people like Hashirama,prime Madara, Minato, Nagato......etc thats not even up to debate.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> People seriously, Itachi has only hype with absolute 0 feats  Staments such as Yata mirror being able to block all attacks and Amaterasu being as hot as the sun are total bullcrapp. Even some of the most hard core Itachi fans can admitt that Itachi is inferiour to people like Hashirama,prime Madara, Minato, Nagato......etc thats not even up to debate.



Not Minato.  He either => Minato.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Apr 21, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Not Minato.  He either => Minato.



At best Itachi is somewhere around Minato's level,still below SM/RM Naruto,EMS Sasuke,prime Madara, Hashirama, Nagato, Tsuchikage and most likely Muu, Nidaime Mizukage, Killer Bee ,Raikage and current Kabuto.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> At best Itachi is somewhere around Minato's level,still below SM/RM Naruto,EMS Sasuke,prime Madara, Hashirama, Nagato, Tsuchikage and most likely Muu, Nidaime Mizukage, Killer Bee ,Raikage and current Kabuto.



If Itachi is on Minato's level then Minato is also weaker than Killer Bee, A, Muu and etc.


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## dungsi27 (Apr 21, 2011)

MyNewLight said:


> Well guys..name one person in the manga that can break trough Itachi's Susano'o.
> ( not including Pain/Hashirama )
> well?
> no one.



You dont need to break through it.You only need to get through it,or wait until it kill Itachi itself.
->Teleportation tech:Madara,Minato.
->Sound based attack:J-man,Naruto.
->Outlive Susanooanzo,Minato,Madara.


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## Sorin (Apr 21, 2011)




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## dungsi27 (Apr 21, 2011)

MyNewLight said:


> Well but no one can resist Itachi's Tsukuyomi.
> Kakashi said that. if u want i'il give u a panel from the manga.



Kakashi also said that only Naruto would be able to surprass Minato.
Anyway,
Just make sure you dont get caught in it.For example:
+Minato: With hiraishin he doesnt need to worry about Amaterasu.
+Danzo: Itachi can kill him or hurt him anyway he wants with Tsukyomi,Amaterasu,or anything he has in his arsenal,then Izanagi would say:"just kidding."
+Raikage: Use his extreme speed to confuse Itachi and force him to keep Susanoo up until he dies.
+Sage J-man: Cover himself with hair and do a Doton:Yomi Numa.


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## Archangel Michael (Apr 21, 2011)

only madara and sasuke could beat itachi ? wrong naruto because of sm, rm and kyuubi ,pain all 6 of them,minato  first hokage , kabutoro many other but it base on hype. I forgot killerbee.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 21, 2011)

ItachiGaara said:


> I don't think so either. Though I _believe_ that MS Itachi is stronger than MS Sasuke and I _believe_ that Itachi could handle MS Sasuke fine. I don't make excuses, but I'm predicting, just like you're predicting that MS Sasuke is stronger.



I have no problem with the predicition, but you seem to be trying to utilize evidence from the Hebi vs. Itachi battle, to argue the case of Itachi being superior to MS. You may as well utilize 8 and 12 year old Sasuke why you are at it, as that is simply the same type of logic being applied.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

Based on hype, only Sasuke and Madara can defeat Itachi.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 21, 2011)

This thread is 100% PROOVED


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## Luxiano (Apr 21, 2011)

gawsome said:


> That and a little virus called HIV.
> 
> Oh and a rock. Nearly apaper too (Madara needed senju powers to survive Konan). God knows what scissors would do.
> 
> ...



Lmao.


Hmm Konan stated that Pain is invincible , where is he now ? 

Also Camorra kinda killed the thread.


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## supersaiyan146 (Apr 21, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Based on hype, only Sasuke and Madara can defeat Itachi.



So true..so true..

Come at me now bro..Oh wait you already negged me..


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> So true..so true..
> 
> Come at me now bro..Oh wait you already negged me..



Whats so funny.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> The amount of FAIL in your posts and your reading comprehension is just..



Provide evidence and an argument. If you can't then stop making off topic post and leave my thread.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> OMG I'm scared ..




Stop posting off topic posts.
Stop being annoying by posting silly smilies with no text and then edit it to include some words so you don't get banned.
Stop sending me flamebait VM.
Stop sending me flamebait rep.
Leave my thread if you can't stay on topic.

It really is just that simple. Your posts proves your the troll, so remember that you will never make me go down to your level and beat me with experience.


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## Taofizzle (Apr 21, 2011)

BAIT THREAD SUCCESFULL!!!


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## supersaiyan146 (Apr 21, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> It really is just that simple. Your posts proves your the troll, so remember that you will never make me go down to your level and beat me with experience.



Heh ?

 You claimed that Only Sauce and Madara an defeat Itachi and my reply was a sarcastic yes.

And you negged me by saying that its not true.

Points to be noted :

1) This thread is an obvious Troll thread and that you created it just to flamebait.

2) You have reading comprehension issues .

You want a serious reply here it is :

The answer is an obvious no .

Of the ones that are alive I believe that Kabuto with prep and RM Naruto can surely take him down .

If we include dead ninjas I think Hashirama and Pain will beat him most of the times .


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## Uchihα Itαchi (Apr 21, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I have no problem with the predicition, but you seem to be trying to utilize evidence from the Hebi vs. Itachi battle, to argue the case of Itachi being superior to MS. You may as well utilize 8 and 12 year old Sasuke why you are at it, as that is simply the same type of logic being applied.



I got my predictions and thoughts. 
Since Kishimoto made it so clear that Itachi was sick, blind and caring when he fought Sasuke, that means Itachi could be stronger. Since Sasuke got Itachi's powers, but not brain (Itachi would never run blindly at an enemy), I'm thinking that MS Itachi is stronger than MS Sasuke. Could just be an opinion. We both got opinions and thoughts of our favorite character, init?


----------



## Forlong (Apr 21, 2011)

I don't know where you got that quote, but it's cockbull.

Hashirama was equal to Madara, and he didn't have the Sharingan.
Naruto is roughly equal to Sasuke, and he doesn't have the Sharingan.
Lee was able to kick Sasuke's ass, and he doesn't have the Sharingan.
Gaara was able to kick Sasuke's ass and he doesn't have the Sharingan.
Deidara was roughly equal to Sasuke, and he didn't have the Sharingan.
Minato was able to kick Madara's ass and he didn't have the Sharingan.
Bee was able to kick Sasuke's ass and he doesn't have the Sharingan.
A vs. Sasuke.  Regardless of if A would have won or lost, he didn't have the Sharingan and pushed Sasuke to the limit.

This is obviously an incorrect assumption.  The Sharingan is a tool.  And like any other, it's only as powerful as the one who wields it.


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## Addy (Apr 21, 2011)

†_Camorra_† said:


> People seriously, Itachi has only hype with absolute 0 feats  Staments such as Yata mirror being able to block all attacks and Amaterasu being as hot as the sun are total bullcrapp. Even some of the most hard core Itachi fans can admitt that Itachi is inferiour to people like Hashirama,prime Madara, Minato, Nagato......etc* thats not even up to debate*.



if that was true then why is it debated?

no feet in the manga other than yatta mirror and ametrasu?

come on camorra. you got better arguments than that  


†_Camorra_† said:


> At best Itachi is somewhere around Minato's level,still below SM/RM Naruto,EMS Sasuke,prime Madara, Hashirama, Nagato, Tsuchikage and most likely Muu, Nidaime Mizukage, Killer Bee ,Raikage and current Kabuto.




madara, EMS sasuke and RM naruto yes but the rest?............ now your just trolling


----------



## Skywalker (Apr 21, 2011)

What is this?


----------



## Puppetry (Apr 21, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> That is so original.
> You think everything I say is flamebait.



I'm not attempting to be original or creative. I'm stating the truth. If I've stated it numerous times, you've flamebaited numerous times. 



> Well, lets see, most of those people you quoted are known to be Itachi hater.



Completely irrelevant. If, as you say, there was an implication in your opening with the meaning of "they're the only ones alive" than these "Itachi haters" would be listing live people. But they weren't. Nor is your lable of Itachi haters warranted, of course. 



> Way to go admitting your post is ridiculous.



"Which are infinitely more ridiculous than mine." I'm stating your claims are more outrageous than my own. How does this equate to me admitting my points are ridiculous? It doesn't, not by any stretch of the imagination.



> Firstly read the title before entering a topic. The title is "Only Madara and Sasuke can defeat Itachi" meaning they are the only Uchiha alive currently. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.



Sure. That's great. 



> Then if you read the OP, I stated Itachi's comment, which means only Uchiha can defeat Uchiha. By reading the title and that quote anyone could figure this out. But because of your off topic post people thought this mis-read this thread.



Your point is still horribly wrong. Are Madara and Sasuke the only Uchiha alive? Yes. Did Itachi state that only an Uchiha could beat an Uchiha? Yes. Is it true? Tell that to Hashirama. 

I still don't understand, however. What does this have to do with people listing others who are dead? They can still beat Itachi, and Itachi's statement is clearly untrue. 

My off topic post? Perhaps, you should apply your own logic instead spinning fiction. If there was the implication that you were talking about only the *live* people who could defeat Itachi, than others, should, logically, pick this up, and disregard my post. Do you know what happened? Pages and pages of people, who have presumably read the OP, still discussing the dead. Your OP wasn't clear.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> *"An eye for an eye, to defeat an Uchiha, they needed the sharingan..." - Madara to Sasuke *
> 
> Based on this quote, only Kakashi, Sasuke and Madara can defeat Itachi.
> 
> ...



I certainly don't see any implication that you are discussing the only _live_ people who could defeat Itachi. 



> SM/RM Naruto has not shown a counter to Yata Mirror or Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu, Itachi's strongest jutsu's. So its not logical.



RM/SM sensory feats allow him to avoid eye contact yet still percieve everything in perfect detail. Thus, he has a counter to Sharingan genjutsu.

Yata Mirror has next to zero feats, and is a defense. Totsuka sword can easily be dodged by Naruto, as it's only feat is stabbing an Orochimaru at a short range.

Amaterasu can be blocked, quite easily in fact. 



> If you think everytime I neg you its a revenge neg and everytime I reply to you its a flamebait then I suggest you place me on ignore list and stop trading post with me.



Your suggestion has been taken into consideration, and rejected. I debated putting you on ignore, but decided against it. Ignorance is unproductive, and I'm not about to ignore your unique brand of logic because you want me to.

I neg you, then you neg me. The very definition of a revenge neg, which is exactly what you did. Flamebait is merely your inability to act in a cordial manner. Not surprising, but nothing I can't deal with. 

How about, instead of trying to influence my decision, you do what you have been preaching? Put me on ignore. I'll still counter your points. You don't have to respond, after all. 



> You go in battledome and post all you like about Databook = Manga and that Sasori > Itachi.



Latter part is a misconception of yours, and one I won't attempt to clear up. Yes, I will go to the battledome. Yes, I will do those things. But I will still post on the Library, and I will still respond to your posts, should they conflict with my views. 



> Just stop trading post with me and have anything to do with me



I respectfully decline your offer.



> This is so you stop crying out I revenge negged you or flamebaited everytime I disagree with your opinion.



Illogical. I state the truth. You revenge neg, and you flamebait. You can agree with me or not, but in the end, a revenge ned is still a revenge neg, and a flamebait is still a flamebait. 



> Either just deal with it.



That's what I'm doing right now, actually.



> or agree to disagree.



No, thank you. There would be absolutely no point to this forum if everyone agreed to disagree.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 21, 2011)

by what logick did you come up that Sasuke can defeat itachi 
*Spoiler*: __ 



and dont give me the " he alredy defeted him " sh..t


 ????


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## Benzaiten (Apr 21, 2011)

Going by the logic that only an Uchiha can defeat an Uchiha is utter bull and you know it. If you thoroughly believe such a thing then by that logic Madara shouldn't have been defeated by Shodai, Sasuke shouldn't have been defeated by Haku and the Senju shouldn't have been equal to the Uchiha. Besides, Naruto is obviously going to defeat Madara, Sasuke and whoever you pit against him so there really is no point in making such a claim.

As for using quotes as proof, we all know Itachi endured his illness just so he can be murdered by Sasuke. His message to Kakashi could simply have meant that he believes only Sasuke (the only surviving Uchiha then) should kill him. Also, Uchiha are a bunch of arrogant arses who think they're better than anything because of their blood line. People bluff/brag about their feats all the time and more than half of them always end up proven wrong.

Also, stop complaining about people bringing up dead characters. Your OP made no mention of referring only to the living. You didn't say 'The only living people who can beat Itachi are...', you simply said 'Only Sasuke and Madara can beat Itachi', both in your title and your OP. Stop blaming others for your shortcomings.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 21, 2011)

Benzaiten said:


> Going by the logic that only an Uchiha can defeat an Uchiha is utter bull and you know it. If you thoroughly believe such a thing then by that logic Madara shouldn't have been defeated by Shodai, Sasuke shouldn't have been defeated by Haku and the Senju shouldn't have been equal to the Uchiha. Besides, Naruto is obviously going to defeat Madara, Sasuke and whoever you pit against him so there really is no point in making such a claim.
> 
> As for using quotes as proof, we all know Itachi endured his illness just so he can be murdered by Sasuke. His message to Kakashi could simply have meant that he believes only Sasuke (the only surviving Uchiha then) should kill him. Also, Uchiha are a bunch of arrogant arses who think they're better than anything because of their blood line. People bluff/brag about their feats all the time and more than half of them always end up proven wrong.
> 
> Also, stop complaining about people bringing up dead characters. Your OP made no mention of referring only to the living. You didn't say 'The only living people who can beat Itachi are...', you simply said 'Only Sasuke and Madara can beat Itachi', both in your title and your OP. Stop blaming others for your shortcomings.



I am so turned on by your speach 
but i agree with you itachi was with one foot in the grave when he fought sasuke and he only fought sasuke to kill orochimary and sasuke didnt won the fight he was just lucky itahci died


----------



## Addy (Apr 21, 2011)

zlatko said:


> by what logick did you come up that Sasuke can defeat itachi
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



you just pulled an aizen


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 21, 2011)

ItachiGaara said:


> I got my predictions and thoughts.
> Since Kishimoto made it so clear that Itachi was sick, blind and caring when he fought Sasuke, that means Itachi could be stronger. Since Sasuke got Itachi's powers, but not brain (Itachi would never run blindly at an enemy), I'm thinking that MS Itachi is stronger than MS Sasuke. Could just be an opinion. We both got opinions and thoughts of our favorite character, init?



Isn't Sasuke not having Itachi's brain a good thing???? Considering that the most complex strategy Itachi's brain has ever executed involved picking and choosing with sharingan move to spam next. 

I have no problem with your reasoning or your opinion of Itachi being greater than MS Sasuke. My problem is with your implication of using Itachi's superiority over Hebi Sasuke to argue his superiority over MS Sasuke. 

That is all.


----------



## BlinkST (Apr 21, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> *"An eye for an eye, to defeat an Uchiha, they needed the sharingan..." - Madara to Sasuke *
> 
> Based on this quote, only Kakashi, Sasuke and Madara can defeat Itachi.
> 
> ...


Don't you think that say, Nagato or Naruto can defeat Itachi at this time? He's grown pretty weak and on the verge of losing his jutsu. It doesn't take a lot to defeat someone like him these days.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 21, 2011)

Addy said:


> you just pulled an aizen



what's Aizen ???? i dont watch bleach so pleass explain


----------



## SaVaGe609 (Apr 21, 2011)

I have confindence in the Raikage and Tsuchikage. More so the Tsuchikage. They're no push overs. And Pain of course.

Bee would be a good fight. That one depends on how Kishi feels that day.


----------



## tori22 (Apr 21, 2011)

Ugh can someone just close this thread down it's obvious this guy is trolling seriously it's such flamebait it's actually making me kinda hungry


----------



## zlatko (Apr 21, 2011)

no i kind it like to argue plus he isnt online when he will read all the bashing he will close it him self D:


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## ? (Apr 21, 2011)

Itachi was likely Rikudo Sennin level or higher .


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

Wow, so many manga haters. I only posted what was in the manga.


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## zlatko (Apr 21, 2011)

we are not manga haters you havent done a reserched before posting and you have .249 post you should be shamed of the rank you hold


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## Skywalker (Apr 21, 2011)

Inu said:


> Itachi was likely Rikudo Sennin level or higher .


Itachi's incredibly powerful, but not _that_ strong.


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## zlatko (Apr 21, 2011)

Inu said:


> Itachi was likely Rikudo Sennin level or higher .



you over pushed it


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

zlatko said:


> we are not manga haters you havent done a reserched before posting and you have .249 post you should be shamed of the rank you hold



Your right, your just Itachi hater.

What rank do I hold? I don't even know.


----------



## Puppetry (Apr 21, 2011)

Correct. You did post statements in the manga. However, just because it was stated in the manga doesn't mean it's true. Is every hyperbolic statement true in the manga? No. We have a clear contradiction with a very iffy statement: Hashirama vs Madara. Hashirama defeated Madara, stripped him of the Kyuubi, and left wounds Madara feels to this very day. Clearly, Hashirama _Senju_ is not an Uchiha, thus, that statement has been flatly debunked.

Also: claiming haters is a horrible debating tactic. Merely, it's an excuse to not respond to the points provided. Are they haters? Perhaps, perhaps not. Did they makes points? Yes. Did you refute these points, and thus prove your original statement that they were manga haters? No. You merely made a statement, and thought this to be an argument.


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## zlatko (Apr 21, 2011)

i am not itachi hater actuali i like itachi very much and becouse your ridiculus statment that only madara and sasuke wich a hate can defeted itachi was wrong i mearly stated that sasuke couldnt defeted itachi even if he cryes all day


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

Someone on my ignore list posted. I hope he didn't waste his time posting TL;DR posts. 

^Itachi is invincible. Only Madara and Sasuke has a chance to beat Itachi based on hype. By feats, no one can counter Itachi's Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu and Susano except Madara and Sasuke.

So Itachi's hype is believable.


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## zlatko (Apr 21, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Someone on my ignore list posted. I hope he didn't waste his time posting TL;DR posts.
> 
> ^Itachi is invincible. Only Madara and Sasuke has a chance to beat Itachi based on hype. By feats, no one can counter Itachi's Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu and Susano except Madara and Sasuke.
> 
> So Itachi's hype is believable.



you are right itachi did had the most powerfull genjutsu and was a master of that but as was sown ther is many ways to tricked it shown by kakashi with kage bunshin


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

zlatko said:


> you are right itachi did had the most powerfull genjutsu and was a master of that but as was sown ther is many ways to tricked it shown by kakashi with kage bunshin



Are you sure Kakashi tricked Itachi when he used Tsukiyomi which only lasts few seconds.


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## Puppetry (Apr 21, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Someone on my ignore list posted. I hope he didn't waste his time posting TL;DR posts.



Dismantling shotty arguments is worth my time, I assure you. 



> ^Itachi is invincible.



The invincible do not get hurt, and cannot be defeated. Itachi falls into none of those categoiries.



> Only Madara and Sasuke has a chance to beat Itachi based on hype.



Hashirama, Minato, and Prime Hiruzen all disagree. 



> By feats, no one can counter Itachi's Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu and Susano except Madara and Sasuke.



Naruto can counter all three. 



> So Itachi's hype is believable.



No, merely you picking which statements to believe, then making a generalization to support your argument.


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## zlatko (Apr 21, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Are you sure Kakashi tricked Itachi when he used Tsukiyomi which only lasts few seconds.



yes i am talking about the naruo kakashi vs itachi fight when we firs saw the odama rasengan itachi used kage bunshin and the real was hieing underground


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

zlatko said:


> yes i am talking about the naruo kakashi vs itachi fight when we firs saw the odama rasengan itachi used kage bunshin and the real was hieing underground



That time Itachi used Genjutsu not Tsukiyomi.

Tsukiyomi lasts 1-3 seconds. It can kill an opponent instantly while genjutsu is completely different.


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## Addy (Apr 21, 2011)

zlatko said:


> what's Aizen ???? i dont watch bleach so pleass explain



aizen says somehting like 

you "i will win against you aizen"

aizen "since when were you under the impression that you could win?"

you said


> by what logick did you come up that Sasuke can defeat itachi



aizen translation "since when were you under the impression that sasuke can defeat itachi?"

read bleach just for epic aizen quotes and trolling


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## kazuri (Apr 21, 2011)

Tsukiyomi does not kill.. To quote kisame "Tsukiyomi is used to break the enemies spirit."

As for kagebunshin, it depends how kishimoto is feeling that week. Sometimes sharingan can tell which is a kagebunshin, other times it cannot.


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## T-Bag (Apr 21, 2011)

ATastyMuffin said:


> _You mean how Hashirama stomped Madara's ass to the point where the latter feels his severe injuries from over half a century ago?_
> 
> *If you're going to imply that a MS Itachi > EMS Madara + Kyuubi, are you even worth debating?*
> 
> ...



Itachi =/= Madara. Madara and Itachi have completely different skill sets for all we know.  A>B>C logic doesnt fly around here.

What Im saying is Hashirama might have had the right tools/skills to counter madara, especially after knowing him for so long, but Itachi is a different case.

Hanzo beat 3 sannins at once, yet he couldn't beat mifune. It dont mean shit.


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## zlatko (Apr 21, 2011)

The botom line is that itachi can be beat by more persons than madara and sasuke ( BTW i doubt that sasuke can defeat Itachi but still fans are fans )


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## Chocolate Donut (Apr 21, 2011)

The quote used in the OP is about as truthful as Haku being lightspeed.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

zlatko said:


> The botom line is that itachi can be beat by more persons than madara and sasuke ( BTW i doubt that sasuke can defeat Itachi but still fans are fans )



No thats not the bottom line, that is just your opinion. 

Based on manga no one has the feats which will enable them to KO Itachi except Madara and Sasuke.

Only Sasuke and Kakashi survived Itachi's Tsukiyomi due to having sharingan. Kakashi stated that Tsukiyomi would have killed him.


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## zlatko (Apr 21, 2011)

well the qoute is half true a simple shinobi couldnt defeat the sharingan a very skiled shinobi can defete who will have some advantage like a body of a senjy and the one you listed that can defeat the sharingan where almost all disendents of the youngerr son a senjy body type


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## Skywalker (Apr 21, 2011)

Chocolate Donut said:


> The quote used in the OP is about as truthful as Haku being lightspeed.


I see what you did there.


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## zlatko (Apr 21, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> No thats not the bottom line, that is just your opinion.
> 
> Based on manga no one has the feats which will enable them to KO Itachi except Madara and Sasuke.
> 
> Only Sasuke and Kakashi survived Itachi's Tsukiyomi due to having sharingan. Kakashi stated that Tsukiyomi would have killed him.



so by your statment if kakashi madara and sasuke wher to die and itachi was alive he whould be a god in the shinobi world right ?????


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

zlatko said:


> well the qoute is half true a simple shinobi couldnt defeat the sharingan a very skiled shinobi can defete who will have some advantage like a body of a senjy and the one you listed that can defeat the sharingan where almost all disendents of the youngerr son a senjy body type



I agree, but what does this has to do with Itachi. Uchiha can be defeated by non-Uchiha's except Itachi. Only Itachi can be defeated by Uchiha at this moment by feats and hype.

No one except Sasuke and Madara can counter Itachi's Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi.

Itachi Amaterasu can be shut of by Sasuke, Itachi Tsukiyomi won't be able to kill Sasuke since he weilds a sharingan. ETC.


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## zlatko (Apr 21, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> I agree, but what does this has to do with Itachi. Uchiha can be defeated by non-Uchiha's except Itachi. Only Itachi can be defeated by Uchiha at this moment by feats and hype.
> 
> No one except Sasuke and Madara can counter Itachi's Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi.
> 
> Itachi Amaterasu can be shut of by Sasuke, Itachi Tsukiyomi won't be able to kill Sasuke since he weilds a sharingan. ETC.



naruto can defaet him now there is a lot of tricks to counter the sharingan read my post in my sig


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

zlatko said:


> so by your statment if kakashi madara and sasuke wher to die and itachi was alive he whould be a god in the shinobi world right ?????



What is this...

By this statement I am guessing you think Madara is god in the shinobi world?

There is only one god in the shinobi world and that is Rikkoudou.



zlatko said:


> naruto can defaet him now there is a lot of tricks to counter the sharingan read my post in my sig



Your sig did not show how he can counter Itachi's Susano Yata Mirror, or the Totsuka Sword or Tsukiyomi..


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## zlatko (Apr 21, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> What is this...
> 
> By this statement I am guessing you think Madara is god in the shinobi world?
> 
> There is only one god in the shinobi world and that is Rikkoudou.



well you say that only sasuke and madara can kill itachi right and i say if they where dead and itachi was alive than by your logick noobady can kill itachi


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 21, 2011)

zlatko said:


> well you say that only sasuke and madara can kill itachi right and i say if they where dead and itachi was alive than by your logick noobady can kill itachi



No, if they work as a team, then they can beat Itachi. If all the shinobi join together and fight Itachi then they will be able to defeat him.

Especially when they combine their feats.


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## Forlong (Apr 21, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Someone on my ignore list posted. I hope he didn't waste his time posting TL;DR posts.
> 
> ^Itachi is invincible. Only Madara and Sasuke has a chance to beat Itachi based on hype. By feats, no one can counter Itachi's Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu and Susano except Madara and Sasuke.
> 
> So Itachi's hype is believable.



Yes, the acknowledgment of his actions farther cements how much you're ignoring him. 

Anyway, Itachi's high power is not because of the Sharingan.  It's because of his skill with it.  Sasuke has the Sharingan as well, and is said to be more gifted with it than Itachi, yet he gets his ass handed to him all the time.  It's quite clear that the statement "one the Sharingan can defeat the Sharingan" was made under misconception.  So it doesn't matter if you have the Sharingan, if you don't know how to use it.  It was also said in the manga that an expert with a rock can beat a novice with a shiruken.


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## Naruto Uciha (Apr 21, 2011)

If you mean current Madara then yeah, but prime Madara would prob destroy Itachi.


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## tori22 (Apr 21, 2011)

wait quick off topic question am I THE ONE on your ignore list? If im not then please respond to this.


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## Jak N Blak (Apr 21, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Isn't Sasuke not having Itachi's brain a good thing???? Considering that the most complex strategy Itachi's brain has ever executed involved picking and choosing with sharingan move to spam next.
> 
> I have no problem with your reasoning or your opinion of Itachi being greater than MS Sasuke. My problem is with your implication of using Itachi's superiority over Hebi Sasuke to argue his superiority over MS Sasuke.
> 
> That is all.



Itachi vs Kurenai and Kakashi disagrees with this statement about his intelligence


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## DarkRasengan (Apr 21, 2011)

Add pain, minato, bee, jiraiya,A to that list.


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## Jak N Blak (Apr 21, 2011)

To close this thread in all its madness for GOOD, let me give the OP his answer.

- Kabuto can defeat him. This alone should end all discussions.
- Kakashi can defeat him. Just how everyone wants to "assume" he'll be camping in Susanoo 24/7 I'll "assume" that if he does not know of Kakashi's pressence, he'll get warped. Game over.
- Oonoki can
- Gaara can if he burries Itachi under 1000 tons of sand
- Mei can, Lava release turns you into stone. How do you regenerate when you're STONE?!
- Raikage could've thanks to Amber pot, lol...anyway...

And I would suggest more people to beat him but its only because he's an Edo that only these people are effective.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 21, 2011)

If Sasuke can beat Itachi then anyone that can beat the Sauce should be able to also beat Itachi  Yes is a>b>c logic but even that beats OPs logic that only Sharingan beats Sharingan


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## Dashido (Apr 21, 2011)

tedrocks123 said:


> Raikage has no genjutsu resistance feats and isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, Itachi can beat him.
> 
> The Tsuchikage is featless and you just said not to rely on hyperboles, his only hype is a hyperbole so...
> 
> ...



You my friend are either an idiot or haven't been reading the manga. 

Raikage has genjutsu immunity.

Tschikage can fly and turn shit to dust. What he's shown already is enough to kill Itachi depending on the situation.

Jaraiya can't beat him? Not even going their thats you opinion its just annoying hw you say it like its canon, alot like other things you've stated.

Killer Bee have genjutsu immunity aswell basically.I could go into detail about how he would pawn him but. Sigh to much work right now.


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## Corruption (Apr 21, 2011)

Didn't Zabuza once say that nobody could beat Haku's master technique?

Do you really think that's true too?


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## goldendriger (Apr 22, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> *"To defeat an Uchiha, they needed the sharingan..." *



Part 1 Rock Lee says "Hi"


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## zlatko (Apr 22, 2011)

part two minato says wasuuuuup


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## PinkiePool (Apr 22, 2011)

zlatko said:


> part two minato says wasuuuuup


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## ZE (Apr 22, 2011)

The same Itachi who said only a sharingan user can resist tsukuyomi (that was what was said) admitted inferiority to Jiraiya. I guess that means Jiraiya has the sharingan... or maybe it just means what is stated in the manga:

-Only someone with uchiha blood can resist Tsukuyomi 
-Even if you're not an uchiha, you can still defeat a Tsukuyomi user (ask Itachi, he was the one who said it)
-So, non-sharingan users can still defeat Itachi, as Itachi's words about Jiraiya prove.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Wow, so many manga haters. I only posted what was in the manga.



Jiraiya>Itachi was also in the manga.


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## Nic (Apr 22, 2011)

which is why both Sasuke and Tobi will be beaten by non uchihas in the end. lol


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 22, 2011)

Nic said:


> which is why both Sasuke and Tobi will be beaten by non uchihas in the end. lol



Well every dog eventually has his day. Naruto I mean the person in question can only fail to beat one so many times, before eventually getting the better of 1 or 2.


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## αce (Apr 22, 2011)

> which is why both Sasuke and Tobi will be beaten by non uchihas in the end. lol



Unless Tobi is beaten by Sasuke and Naruto.


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## BrokenBonds (Apr 22, 2011)

Pain would crush Itachi beneath his heel.


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## jimbob631 (Apr 22, 2011)

Anti-Itachi fans are just as bad as Itachi fans when it comes to judging his power.  Only the hokages, Bee, current Naruto, Nagato, current Sasuke, Kabuto, and Madara can beat Itachi.  People saying Raikage and Jiraiya could beat him are being delusional and people saying Itachi can beat Nagato are just plain silly.


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## tori22 (Apr 22, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> Anti-Itachi fans are just as bad as Itachi fans when it comes to judging his power.  Only the hokages, Bee, current Naruto, Nagato, current Sasuke, Kabuto, and Madara can beat Itachi.  People saying Raikage and Jiraiya could beat him are being delusional and people saying Itachi can beat Nagato are just plain silly.



Raikage maybe but Itachi ADMITTED THAT Jiraiya was too strong for him...........


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## jimbob631 (Apr 22, 2011)

tori22 said:


> Raikage maybe but Itachi ADMITTED THAT Jiraiya was too strong for him...........



I think what he said was more along the lines of if they fought it would be a draw.  Regardless he would have had no reason to want to kill Jiraiya so anything Itachi was saying in terms of his strength was likely to give him an excuse for not having to fight.  I dont think Jiraiya is that much lower than Itachi, but look at how Itachi completely dominates Orochimaru.  Unless you think Jiraiya is way stronger than Orochimaru, even when the manga implies numerous times they're equal, you have to concede Jiraiya is not as strong as Itachi.


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## MihaiJ (Apr 22, 2011)

The bijuu can cheat genjutsu and, therefore, Naruto or Bee can outclass Itachi. I think the conversation with Edo Itachi would be far more interesting then the fight itself!


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## Sadgoob (Apr 22, 2011)

BrokenBonds said:


> Pain would crush Itachi beneath his heel.



Tsukuyomi or Susano'o might win the match.


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## zlatko (Apr 22, 2011)

ok tsukuyomi and sosano arent supstitution they use much chakra and exost the body i am itachi fan but still he isn't a god


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## KingBoo (Apr 22, 2011)

which madara are we talking about? the current one couldn't do anything while itachi was alive. sauske needs itachi's own power just to surpass him which is pretty sad. and even then ems is just a cure to blindness, and an upgraded black fire and mind rape genjutsu. doesn't mean sauske suddenly becomes even faster or better at hand to hand. so i doubt current sauske can do anything to itachi. unless of course the other jutsu ems gives is THAT overpowered. most uchihas are pathetic. don't get me wrong though, i usually root for the bad guys, so i still like those 2 remaining uchihas.

but yeah all the characters i've seen so far can't beat itachi. maybe if all of akatsuki and the kages team up, i think they can tie with itachi. but seriously if itachi was a bad guy, the only person that can possibly challenge him is aoba. his boss summon is a rasengan ready konohamaru so that can spell trouble for itachi.


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## tori22 (Apr 22, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> I think what he said was more along the lines of if they fought it would be a draw.  Regardless he would have had no reason to want to kill Jiraiya so anything Itachi was saying in terms of his strength was likely to give him an excuse for not having to fight.  I dont think Jiraiya is that much lower than Itachi, but look at how Itachi completely dominates Orochimaru.  Unless you think Jiraiya is way stronger than Orochimaru, even when the manga implies numerous times they're equal, you have to concede Jiraiya is not as strong as Itachi.



Well when you put it that way, I guess your right. But still I think they're evenly matched but now I think Jiraiya should be removed from the list of "People who'd pwn Itachi".


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## Skywalker (Apr 22, 2011)

Madara and Sasuke will both be beaten by Naruto.

So what's your point, OP?


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## supersaiyan146 (Apr 22, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Tsukuyomi or Susano'o might win the match.



Itachi gets destroyed by CT , ST , Missile/laser spam and summons.


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## BrokenBonds (Apr 22, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Tsukuyomi or Susano'o might win the match.


How is a torture genjutsu that targets one opponent going to work on Six zombies. Susanoo wont be able to take out 6 opponents, it's also counterable with Chibaku Tensei.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 22, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Itachi gets destroyed by CT , ST



This requires only one genjutsu-able Path to be acitve.



			
				BrokenBonds said:
			
		

> How is a torture genjutsu that targets one opponent going to work on Six zombies.



Not zombies, puppets. Tsukuyomi could affect Nagato himself.



			
				BrokenBonds said:
			
		

> Susanoo wont be able to take out 6 opponents



That's quite debatable.


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## T-Bag (Apr 22, 2011)

KingBoo said:


> which madara are we talking about? the current one couldn't do anything while itachi was alive. sauske needs itachi's own power just to surpass him which is pretty sad. and even then ems is just a cure to blindness, and an upgraded black fire and mind rape genjutsu. doesn't mean sauske suddenly becomes even faster or better at hand to hand. so i doubt current sauske can do anything to itachi. unless of course the other jutsu ems gives is THAT overpowered. most uchihas are pathetic. don't get me wrong though, i usually root for the bad guys, so i still like those 2 remaining uchihas.
> 
> but yeah all the characters i've seen so far can't beat itachi. maybe if all of akatsuki and the kages team up, i think they can tie with itachi. but seriously if itachi was a bad guy, the only person that can possibly challenge him is aoba. his boss summon is a rasengan ready konohamaru so that can spell trouble for itachi.



Itachi is beast. I agree 

Itachi is NOT overrated, he's literally that good. There was no need to give him a disease and make him go easy on fights, if he wasn't that strong. seriously. Give him one or the other, but not both. Thats obvious nerf.


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## Divinstrosity (Apr 22, 2011)

People refuse to accept it, but Itachi was portrayed as a transcendentally powerful character. Not saying he's the ONLY one...

...but you don't have a character pwn legendary and very powerful shinobi without breaking a sweat unless you're trying to convey that said character is ultra strong. What other story do you know where a character handles great fighters with ease and they're not top shelf material?

Come on, people...

...I know you all hate Uchiha's, but some shit would be as clear as day if you'd lay your biases on the floor. I know when I'm being biased. It's not serious enough for me to prop Itachi up to where he doesn't belong. I know it is for some of you, but life is bigger than your character being equal to or stronger than a Uchiha.


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## dungsi27 (Apr 22, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> Itachi is beast. I agree
> 
> Itachi is NOT overrated, he's literally that good. There was no need to give him a disease and make him go easy on fights, if he wasn't that strong. seriously. Give him one or the other, but not both. Thats obvious nerf.



After getting nerf he was lower than Hebi Sasuke.
But saying that without the nerf he would be able to match,say,the power of Hashirama Senju,or Pein is ridiculous.
Featwise Danzo with Izanagi,would take him out.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 22, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> After getting nerf he was lower than Hebi Sasuke.



LOL.



dungsi27 said:


> Hashirama Senju, or Pein is ridiculous.  Danzo with Izanagi.



A featless Hashirama, or Nagato and Danzō with preparation can defeat Itachi.


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## dungsi27 (Apr 22, 2011)

Strategos said:


> LOL. **



Yes that is the truth.


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 22, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> After getting nerf he was lower than Hebi Sasuke.
> But saying that without the nerf he would be able to match,say,the power of Hashirama Senju,or Pein is ridiculous.
> Featwise Danzo with Izanagi,would take him out.



Danzo couldn't even take out sasuke who didn't even master his MS, and you think he can take out Itachi who mastered it? Cmon now rly? lol don't make me laugh here.

To make it short, Itachi would have ended the battle in an instant with Tsukuyomi. Itachi's moves are simply too fast, for danzo to keep up.

Hashirama is not really that impressive, Legends are often exaggerated. he's mostly hype like Hanzo. And he was surpassed by sarutobi hiruzen.


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## ? (Apr 22, 2011)

Skywalker said:


> Itachi's incredibly powerful, but not _that_ strong.





zlatko said:


> you over pushed it



But what about Tsukuyomi? Only an Uchiwa with a powerful sharingan can HOPE to beat Tsukuyomi according to the manga. IIRC Rikudo Sennin had a Rinnegan, not a Sharingan...

Itachi> all


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## tori22 (Apr 22, 2011)

Everyone who's using tsukyomi as an arguement is clearly retarded. Only dumbsh*ts who actually look into their Itachi's eyes will get affected by it. Gai and Kakashi have already demonstrated ways of fighting Itachi without looking into his eyes. I'm pretty sure Nagato and the Raikage and everyone else on the list are smarter than that.


----------



## BrokenBonds (Apr 22, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Not zombies, puppets. Tsukuyomi could affect Nagato himself.


... He wouldn't be facing off against the real body if he fought Pain, now would he. Please don't tell me you think Tsukuyomi would just magically travel too Nagato if he used it on a path .


> That's quite debatable.


All ears, Shinra Tensei would also provide a good defense against the weapon.


----------



## dungsi27 (Apr 22, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> Danzo couldn't even take out sasuke who didn't even master his MS, and you think he can take out Itachi who mastered it? Cmon now rly? lol don't make me laugh here.
> 
> To make it short, Itachi would have ended the battle in an instant with Tsukuyomi. Itachi's moves are simply too fast, for danzo to keep up.
> 
> Hashirama is not really that impressive, Legends are often exaggerated. he's mostly hype like Hanzo. And he was surpassed by sarutobi hiruzen.



Sasuke had more stamina so he was able to survive through Izanagi.
Danzo doenst need to keep up with anything.Izanagi would take care of anything for him.

Hashiramas feat is to defeat a full-powered Madara Uchiha,along with his mighty Kyubi,without his Biju army.For someone who overcame the power of EMS and Kyubi,he shouldnt have any trouble dealing with someone with MS.Thats normal logic.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 23, 2011)

BrokenBonds said:


> ... He wouldn't be facing off against the real body if he fought Pain, now would he. Please don't tell me you think Tsukuyomi would just magically travel too Nagato if he used it on a path.



Tobi projecting his eye on the moon will put people in genjutsu. It's all about seeing the eye clearly, and Nagato can see the Sharingan clearly due to his shared vision with the Paths of Pain.



BrokenBonds said:


> All ears, Shinra Tensei would also provide a good defense against the weapon.



I'm not saying it would be a slaughter, but if the Yata Mirror can turn back Shinra Tensei and Kyuuin, and the Totsuka is ethereal and cannot be blocked or absorbed, then Pain is going to have serious problems.


----------



## Fiona (Apr 23, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> Hashirama is not really that impressive, Legends are often exaggerated. he's mostly hype like Hanzo. And he was surpassed by sarutobi hiruzen.



*raises hand quietly*


Except that Madara Himself considered Shodai one of the most powerful Ninja of his time. Madara says the he is a shell of his former self which means he used to be more powerful. and Hashirama defeated him.

"His prowess and abilities were so great that he was able to not only fight on equal footing with Madara despite the power of his Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan and having the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox at his side, but also survive the battle and gain victory in the end. The injuries which he caused to Madara were so great that even decades later they still affect him tremendously."

-Directly from Narutopedia



 Sooo............yeah.


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## Kotoamatsukami (Apr 23, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> lol Feats, what feats ?  Itachi is the single most overrated character in the manga, his fanbase constantly usess no limits fallacy statemts and hyperboll from the manga that dont count shit
> Here is the list of the people who can school Itachi
> 
> Raikage
> ...



Maybe you should stop drinking some...




People really need to get rid of their Itachi-antipathy. Face it, our Uchiha-King was the fucking greatest prodigy ever. Your list is unfortunetaly crappy because...

what kind of feat did Tsuchikage show you? Itachi would eat this old fucker for the lulz!!! His stupid Jinton would be okay for wiping away his own shit on a molecular-level. Other than that, Itachi would eat him for breakfast. And Tobi with his crappy ST-Jutsu would get sealed away by Itachis Susanoo. End of line. 

No on except of Nagato could have beaten Itachi, maybe also Minato because his hype-level is on equal grounds. Everyone else should stand in line and bow to Itachi when he passes by them.


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## supersaiyan146 (Apr 23, 2011)

Strategos said:


> This requires only one genjutsu-able Path to be acitve..



I never mentioned CST LOL . All the ones that I've specified doesn't require other paths to be deactivated .


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## zlatko (Apr 23, 2011)

Strategos said:


> Tobi projecting his eye on the moon will put people in genjutsu. It's all about seeing the eye clearly, and Nagato can see the Sharingan clearly due to his shared vision with the Paths of Pain.
> I'm not saying it would be a slaughter, but if the Yata Mirror can turn back Shinra Tensei and Kyuuin, and the Totsuka is ethereal and cannot be blocked or absorbed, then Pain is going to have serious problems.



you are forgeting that the Rinegan is the ultimate ocular vision and plus all the pain's are resistent to Genjutsu and dont feel pain even Ibiki couldnt make them feel pain so forget sharingan the rinegan will win at any time


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Apr 23, 2011)

I love this thread.

Though seriously, Itachi can probably beat anyone. Hashirama, Minato, Pain, they're all shit to him.


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## Btbgfel (Apr 23, 2011)

WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT?


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## zlatko (Apr 23, 2011)

Btbgfel said:


> WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT?



This is the Itachi is a God Thread Welcome


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## Black☆Star (Apr 23, 2011)

•Sharingan Squid• said:


> I love this thread.
> 
> Though seriously, Itachi can probably be beat by anyone. Hashirama, Minato, Pain, they're all superior to him.



Fixed


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## Emo_Princess (Apr 23, 2011)

Itachi was stronger than sasuke and held back his full strength during their fight,So i don't believe sasuke could beat itachi.


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Apr 23, 2011)

Yahiko said:


> Fixed



Couldn't think of anything else, huh?


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## Black☆Star (Apr 23, 2011)

?Sharingan Squid? said:


> Couldn't think of anything else, huh?



I only state the facts


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 23, 2011)

People who are capable of defeating Itachi : RS, Hashirama, Madara, Pain, EMS Sasuke, RM Naruto.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Apr 23, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> lol Feats, what feats ?  Itachi is the single most overrated character in the manga, his fanbase constantly usess no limits fallacy statemts and hyperboll from the manga that dont count shit
> Here is the list of the people who can school Itachi
> 
> Raikage
> ...



i agree that his fandom can take things too far, although that doesnt make him weak, as far as im concerned his susanoo with the legedary items was invincible and i honestly dont see anything breaking though it (apart from maybe a CST or CT)


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## navy (Apr 23, 2011)

Hashirama cant beat Itachi?


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 23, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> Itachi =/= Madara. Madara and Itachi have completely different skill sets for all we know.  A>B>C logic doesnt fly around here.



*Itachi stated he was inferior to EMS Madara*, yet you're still stuck on the notion that MS Itachi could put up a better fight against the man that completely stomped the latter?

*By hype, EMS Madara is superior to Itachi in every single way.*



> What Im saying is Hashirama might have had the right tools/skills to counter madara, especially after knowing him for so long, but Itachi is a different case.





So this is your argument? Saying that Itachi should be superior to EMS Madara and subsequently Hashirama because 'they have different skill sets'?

Try debating without using baseless fallacies over and over.

*EMS Madara should have every technique Itachi has, and more. *



> Hanzo beat 3 sannins at once, yet he couldn't beat mifune. It dont mean shit.



This was already addressed in the manga how Hanzo was drained of his abilities once his confidence level dropped again and again over the years.

*Son, you need to read the manga.*


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## tori22 (Apr 23, 2011)

Hey just a thought what about Danzo? Anyone think he can do it?


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## zlatko (Apr 23, 2011)

tori22 said:


> Hey just a thought what about Danzo? Anyone think he can do it?



i dont think so danzo is brute force attacks he doesnt have the brain power when sasuke was abble to kill him then itahi wont have to break a sweat


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## T-Bag (Apr 23, 2011)

ATastyMuffin said:


> *Itachi stated he was inferior to EMS Madara*, yet you're still stuck on the notion that MS Itachi could put up a better fight against the man that completely stomped the latter?
> 
> *By hype, EMS Madara is superior to Itachi in every single way.*


By hype, only a uchiha with the mangekyo can defeat Itachi. Which means EMS madara can defeat him, but Hashirama can't because he's not a uchiha.



And please stop with "completely stomp", Hashirama didn't stomp nobody, he was struggling just as much as Madara in their fight, and if he was so strong as to "stomp" Madara, he would have killed him way before the alliance was made. 


> So this is your argument? Saying that Itachi should be superior to EMS Madara and subsequently Hashirama because 'they have different skill sets'?
> 
> Try debating without using baseless fallacies over and over.
> 
> *EMS Madara should have every technique Itachi has, and more. *



Yes this is my argument. A>B>C logic doesn't work in Naruto. Itachi awoke the Susano, and had 2 legendary weapons. Did Madara accomplish this feat?
Can Madara even use Tsukuyomi on Itachi's level which can control space/time at his whim? No He can't.

His godly genjutsu is what makes Itachi so dangerous, you'll end up in checkmate before you know it. Nothing says hashirama can counter this lvl of genjutsu.



> This was already addressed in the manga how Hanzo was drained of his abilities once his confidence level dropped again and again over the years.
> 
> *Son, you need to read the manga.*



So he dropped that much huh? From single handidly defeating 3 sannin into somebody who couldn't even beat a samurai? All because he stopped believing...?

Here's another example of pointless hype. 2 silver/gold brothers who put the 2nd hokage in the verge of death, beaten by chouji+ shika+ ino... lolol.


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## BrickStyle (Apr 23, 2011)

Someone just got teabagged.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 23, 2011)

ATastyMuffin said:


> *Itachi stated he was inferior to EMS Madara*, yet you're still stuck on the notion that MS Itachi could put up a better fight against the man that completely stomped the latter?
> 
> *By hype, EMS Madara is superior to Itachi in every single way.*



Wrong, by Hype Itachi > Madara. 
-Itachi was known to be invincible.
-Itachi can only be defeated by an Uchiha
-Madara can only be defeated by a Sharingan User and Senju.

So in conclusion.

Uchiha > Itachi
Non Uchiha or Uchiha's > Madara 



ATastyMuffin said:


> So this is your argument? Saying that Itachi should be superior to EMS Madara and subsequently Hashirama because 'they have different skill sets'?
> 
> Try debating without using baseless fallacies over and over.
> 
> *EMS Madara should have every technique Itachi has, and more. *



Your wrong again, it was stated in the manga that Uchiha who unlocks MS does not necessarily get Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu and Susano. They might get one of two of those techniques but not all of them. So we do not know what kind of MS techs Madara Uchiha has not to mention EMS Madara did not have Yata Mirror or Totsuka Sword. If he did Hashirama would have been sealed in Totsuka Sword for all eternity.

So no, EMS Madara does not > Itachi. Only if he has Yata Mirror or Totsuka Sword and then he can be called Itachi superior until then Itachi is the god of Uchiha's.



ATastyMuffin said:


> This was already addressed in the manga how Hanzo was drained of his abilities once his confidence level dropped again and again over the years.
> 
> *Son, you need to read the manga.*



You need to read the manga again and stop underestimating the invincible Uchiha.


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## dungsi27 (Apr 23, 2011)

Lol it has been long since the last time I heard someone coming up with the idea about Itachi>Prime Madara and Prime Hashirama.
This is funny.


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## zlatko (Apr 24, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Wrong, by Hype Itachi > Madara.
> -Itachi was known to be invincible.
> -Itachi can only be defeated by an Uchiha
> -Madara can only be defeated by a Sharingan User and Senju.
> ...



By who's standard's was Itachi invincible he did was powerfull but not invincible he wasn't RS you all are forgething that the Sword and Shield of susano are very powerfull but they are alss bad for the users just like naruto's kyubi form is powerfull but it hurts narut's body and btw susano doesnt have very much speed so someone like raikage's speed and minato's will be abble to do a series of qouick attacks. and also bu your logick only uchiha can beat itachi and madara who has survived for 100 years can be beat even by konohamaru if he was strong, your theorys arent suportive by any fact you based your theorys on stuff said in the manga, like when zabuza said that haku's crystal miror was undefetabble then how was it beaten ??? and how is it posibble EMS madara to NOT be abble to kill itachi EMS stand for ETERNAl Mangekyou Sharingan and Itachi doesnt have it he is 50 % blind while madra isnt so again no logick sense 

*Spoiler*: __ 



and dont say that i am Itachi hater becous i am not i like itachi but this is bending the fact four your will


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## Moonraker_One (Apr 24, 2011)

The problem with the idea that only an Uchiha can defeat an Uchiha, is that you're listening to Uchihas say it. It's like taking beauty advice from a leper.

Madara lost an arm to the fourth hokage, and had to retreat from combat because he didn't want to have a prolonged fight with him. Also, he nearly died against Hashirama.

Sasuke was saved by Madara, an instant before Tsuchikage's dust release would've atomized him. If Madara had been a second too late, Sasuke would've died.

Itachi, despite all of his power, would not have survived against Pain, for example. Itachi would've gone quite a distance against him, but in the end, Pain's bodies have so many different capabilities. Almighty Push would've seriously fucked with his shit.

Any and all hyperbole about how amazing the Uchiha are, are coming from Madara. Sasuke's gotten too focused on killing anyone in his path to care what family they are, so we have Madara. Who himself admitted he was just a shell of his former self. The same former self, by the way, that almost died against Hashirama.

Except Madara is massively hypocritical because he took the powers of the Senju into him. He can't possibly be considered a valid source of information about the Uchiha when he's not pure-blooded anymore.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 25, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> By hype, only a uchiha with the mangekyo can defeat Itachi. *Which means EMS madara can defeat him, but Hashirama can't because he's not a uchiha*.



*Complete self-contradiction. Concession accepted.*



> And please stop with "completely stomp", Hashirama didn't stomp nobody, he was struggling just as much as Madara in their fight, and if he was so strong as to "stomp" Madara, he would have killed him way before the alliance was made.



Hashirama has defeated EMS Madara + Kyuubi. How big of a power gap do you suppose there is?

*It's a better feat that Itachi has ever done. By far*.



> Yes this is my argument. A>B>C logic doesn't work in Naruto. Itachi awoke the Susano, and had 2 legendary weapons.* Did Madara accomplish this feat?**Can Madara even use Tsukuyomi on Itachi's level which can control space/time at his whim? No He can't*.



*Give me evidence of this shit or kindly concede*. If you're going to imply that Itachi is superior to EMS Madara, why am I even debating with you?

Madara controlled a Jinchuuriki that had _perfect _Bijuu control, for quite a time, even, when he was a weakened shell of himself. That alone puts his genjutsu feats at least on par with Itachi's.




> His godly genjutsu is what makes Itachi so dangerous, you'll end up in checkmate before you know it. Nothing says hashirama can counter this lvl of genjutsu.



*Itachi.stated.he.was.inferior.to.EMS.Madara*

We have a character statement _completely _destroying your argument. You have an argument claiming because Itachi apparently has a different skill set that Madara's, he can defeat Itachi.

Does anybody else find this shit completely baseless? You have *no *evidence for either EMS Madara or Hashirama's skill sets, so you tangent off by claiming Itachi can defeat someone whose powers we haven't had even a glimpse of.



> So he dropped that much huh? From single handidly defeating 3 sannin into somebody who couldn't even beat a samurai? All because he stopped believing...?



*Implying that the most likely strongest, and the leader of the samurai is weak.* 

Like I said.* Read the damn manga*. It clearly shows just how much of a gap Hanzo dropped by over the subsequent years.


Oh, and Kinkaku/Ginkaku was pressuring a Tobirama alongside eighteen other Jonin+ shinobi. That's hardly "defeating him by themselves".


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## T-Bag (Apr 26, 2011)

ATastyMuffin said:


> *Complete self-contradiction. Concession accepted.*



o_O how? Itachi's tsukuyomi is that good, to the point where only someone with the same blood has a chance of defeating him.

So basically it's like this:

Hashirama > Madara
Madara > Itachi
Itachi > Hashirama

Forget the A > B > C logic lol, get that off your head.


> Hashirama has defeated EMS Madara + Kyuubi. How big of a power gap do you suppose there is?
> 
> *It's a better feat that Itachi has ever done. By far*.


 EMS Madara was just overall more superior, however Itachi is  _deadlier_, ESPECIALLY when dealing with non-uchihas.
His tsukuyomi literally kills you in a heart beat. 



> *Give me evidence of this shit or kindly concede*. If you're going to imply that Itachi is superior to EMS Madara, why am I even debating with you?




I didn't imply, not once Itachi > EMS Madara. Anyway
Replying to bolded part:
Easy, have you seen Madara use Tsukuyomi on anyone? Why does he have to capture, or weaken his opponents before he can use his genjutsu? After all Itachi said, his eyes powers are still intact, so where is his Tsukuyomi?  He doesn't have it. He's not Itachi. Madara didn't have the legendary weps either, because if he did, Itachi wouldn't be the one using them now would he? Simple as that. You dont even know for sure if Madara himself awoke the susano, since he said it was so rare for uchiha to awaken this.

Don't forget that Itachi was also an extraordinary uchiha, and one of the RARE FEW to awaken the Susano, let alone master it. So it's not much of a stretch to say Itachi > Hashirama, especially considering his fighting style.



> Madara controlled a Jinchuuriki that had _perfect _Bijuu control, for quite a time, even, when he was a weakened shell of himself. That alone puts his genjutsu feats at least on par with Itachi's.



Except he's never shown genjutsu in a straight up direct battle, unless they were already at his mercy.

However this isn't a requirement for Itachi Uchiha.





> *Itachi.stated.he.was.inferior.to.EMS.Madara*
> 
> We have a character statement _completely _destroying your argument. You have an argument claiming because Itachi apparently has a different skill set that Madara's, he can defeat Itachi.




Again who cares? A lion is superior to a King Cobra in terms of strength power, but a Cobra is far deadlier, you get bit, and it's bye bye for you.
That's how Itachi's Tsukuyomi works, you get caught (which you will eventually) and you're a goner. Then there's the Susano... in case things get too far.

Itachi is more suited for 1 on 1 battles, then Madara is. Itachi is strong and unique in his own right.



> Does anybody else find this shit completely baseless? You have *no *evidence for either EMS Madara or Hashirama's skill sets, so you tangent off by claiming Itachi can defeat someone whose powers we haven't had even a glimpse of.



 And you don't have all the details either on your side to support HOW Hashirama  defeated Madara. Did you ever consider he got reallly lucky, or had  help from a 3rd party Much like Naruto vs Kakuzu?

So how'd you come up with this analogy; Hashirama > Itachi, if you don't even know how he was able to beat Madara.




> *Implying that the most likely strongest, and the leader of the samurai is weak.*
> 
> 
> Like I said.* Read the damn manga*. It clearly shows just how much of a gap Hanzo dropped by over the subsequent years.



-sigh just kishi's way of saying Hanzo = Hype. He revived him, and came up with this bullshit where he got weaker, Lol gtfo here man.



> Oh, and Kinkaku/Ginkaku was pressuring a Tobirama alongside eighteen other Jonin+ shinobi. That's hardly "defeating him by themselves".



But the *hype*which im trying to get too, focused more on the brothers, than anyone else. They had rikudous legendary weps, and had Kyuubi's chakras. It's obvious only ninjas with hype like that are capable of raping a Kage.

And yet the 2 legendary stars died to 3 teenagers, who just recently hit puberty.

_"Legends are often exaggerated"_ - Shikaku


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## ovanz (Apr 26, 2011)

Ya hashirama already beat Madara, and several people defeated sasuke lol.


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## supersaiyan146 (Apr 26, 2011)

ovanz said:


> Ya hashirama already beat Madara, and several people defeated sasuke lol.



This discussion is not about "Only an Uchiha can beat an Uchiha"..its about "Only a Uchiha can beat Itachi"..


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## Bahamut Slayer (Apr 26, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> This discussion is not about "Only an Uchiha can beat an Uchiha"..its about "Only a Uchiha can beat Itachi"..



So? Itachi is an Uchiha. 

The fact that it doesn't take an Uchiha, but a really strong non-Uchiha, to defeat an Uchiha means that it is possible for a really strong non-Uchiha to beat Itachi.


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## supersaiyan146 (Apr 26, 2011)

Bahamut Slayer said:


> So? Itachi is an Uchiha.
> 
> The fact that it doesn't take an Uchiha, but a really strong non-Uchiha, to defeat an Uchiha means that it is possible for a really strong non-Uchiha to beat Itachi.



But apparently it seems none of the shown ninjas (non Uchihas) have a counter to Tsukoyomi and its inevitable that he'd put them in it . And to break the Tsukoyomi one needs to be an Uchiha . This is the argument thats being presented .

I believe that Pain beats him . Hashirama has a good chance since he has already beaten EMS Madara . And there are a few other who have a 50-50 chance.


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## Orochibuto (Apr 26, 2011)

Seriouly KL mods why did you ban me for just stating in 1 setence "claiming that Itachi can defeat Galactus is stupid" in reply to a post that was claiming that.

Yet you let obvious troll threads like this go pages and pages and the obviously troll OP unpunished? 

Isnt there an outright "No Fanboyism" rule just stated at the same tier of gravity than the "no flaming"? Isnt there a no trolling rule? Why isnt that I NEVER see any of these enforced? And I am not the only people here who have been saying that from a long time ago.

I was planning to participate in the thread, and just as always point that Itachi isnt invencible, but what for? I will get banned on "sightly veiled flamish posts" while obvious trolls will go unpunished here or either as always everything the trolls will get are a "terrible thread" from a mod and locked regardless they already did 10 pages of trolling.

There has to be a moratorium here for threads like these, that are ALWAYS known to cause flaimbait and are trollish in itself, this isnt a critique to the OP or trolls but to a system that simply does not enforce the rules it is set to enforce and is softer with a side and harsher with another. I then having voiced my opinion call the moderation to fully enforce the rules that are set here.

Theads like these arent a surprise in KL, it is only the natural consequence of fanboys knowing they can troll with fallacious evidence all they can and will get away with it on the premise that "we are just voicing our opinions". Of course there can always be some flaw in the forum a troll or another will appear, but when regularly threads like that appear over and over again most of them reaching almost the 10 pages and even surpassing them with trollish comments over the place then I think is obvious it is time to call the moderation to rethink about their strategies here.

This thread shouldnt have been allowed to go beyond page 1 and everyone who is not biased can see it, just like the "Itachi vs Galactus" thread was immediatly closed in the OBD preventing trolls from flooding the place.

With due respect, Orochibuto.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

zlatko said:


> By who's standard's was Itachi invincible he did was powerfull but not invincible he wasn't RS you all are forgething that the Sword and Shield of susano are very powerfull but they are alss bad for the users just like naruto's kyubi form is powerfull but it hurts narut's body and btw susano doesnt have very much speed so someone like raikage's speed and minato's will be abble to do a series of qouick attacks. and also bu your logick only uchiha can beat itachi and madara who has survived for 100 years can be beat even by konohamaru if he was strong, your theorys arent suportive by any fact you based your theorys on stuff said in the manga, like when zabuza said that haku's crystal miror was undefetabble then how was it beaten ??? and how is it posibble EMS madara to NOT be abble to kill itachi EMS stand for ETERNAl Mangekyou Sharingan and Itachi doesnt have it he is 50 % blind while madra isnt so again no logick sense
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



1. You don't need to be RS to be invincible.
2. Raikage and Minato attacks will not get pass Yata Mirror.
3. Yes, if Konohamaru shows the feats which surpasses Madara's, then he can beat him. After all Minato can beat Madara and his a non Uchiha. 
4. Itachi can beat featless EMS Madara. By hype sure, EMS Madara > Itachi, but by feats Itachi > EMS Madara. Itachi also posses MS which he can use to take control of the Kyubi from Madara.



ATastyMuffin said:


> *Complete self-contradiction. Concession accepted.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Hashirama defeated Madara is not a feat, its a hype. 
2. Itachi statement on Madara is false since he lied about his statement against Kisame.
3. You have no evidence on what really happened during Madara and Hashirama battle. Madara stated he fought Hashirama for his ability. In other words Madara lost the battle to gain Hashirama abilities. So as you can see everything is not clear yet. So your just speculating. EMS Madara has not shown any feats other than controlling Kyuubi which Itachi can easily take control over it with his MS. Itachi can also seal it using Totsuka Sword.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Seriouly KL mods why did you ban me for just stating in 1 setence "claiming that Itachi can defeat Galactus is stupid" in reply to a post that was claiming that.



You created off topic posts.



Orochibuto said:


> Yet you let obvious troll threads like this go pages and pages and the obviously troll OP unpunished?



This thread is within the rules, we are discussing about the manga aren't we. Its clear Itachi can only be defeated by a Uchiha, none of the non Uchiha has shown the ability to counter or survive Itachi's deadly one hit MS techniques.



Orochibuto said:


> Isnt there an outright "No Fanboyism" rule just stated at the same tier of gravity than the "no flaming"? Isnt there a no trolling rule? Why isnt that I NEVER see any of these enforced? And I am not the only people here who have been saying that from a long time ago.



Yes, you are, this isn't a troll thread which most haters claim it to be, its a serious thread were we are discussing about the manga in the library. If you don't like a thread you stay out of it. 

It really is just that simple.



Orochibuto said:


> I was planning to participate in the thread, and just as always point that Itachi isnt invencible, but what for? I will get banned on "sightly veiled flamish posts" while obvious trolls will go unpunished here or either as always everything the trolls will get are a "terrible thread" from a mod and locked regardless they already did 10 pages of trolling.



Trolling occured by you guys but not by the OP or most other people. You need to re-read the thread again and see who created the most off topic posts and one liner spam posts.



Orochibuto said:


> There has to be a moratorium here for threads like these, that are ALWAYS known to cause flaimbait and are trollish in itself, this isnt a critique to the OP or trolls but to a system that simply does not enforce the rules it is set to enforce and is softer with a side and harsher with another. I then having voiced my opinion call the moderation to fully enforce the rules that are set here.



You need to take this up to the mods not on this thread. You just created another off topic post which is not what I want to be discussed on this thread.



Orochibuto said:


> Theads like these arent a surprise in KL, it is only the natural consequence of fanboys knowing they can troll with fallacious evidence all they can and will get away with it on the premise that "we are just voicing our opinions". Of course there can always be some flaw in the forum a troll or another will appear, but when regularly threads like that appear over and over again most of them reaching almost the 10 pages and even surpassing them with trollish comments over the place then I think is obvious it is time to call the moderation to rethink about their strategies here.



I think you need to rethink. This thread is completely valid and has nothing to do with fanboyism. Itachi is invincible, his sword can one hit kill even those with bulletproof bodies like Superman has... equipped with Yata Mirror, a shield which can repel/negate whatever you call it every single attacks. It is invincible whether you like it or not.

Therefore a non-Uchiha will find its extremely difficult to beat Itachi. After all they will have to pass Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi which is very unlikely. We have only seen Raikage evade Amaterasu attack. But again Raikage is the fastest character in the manga. But it is impossible for Raikage to evade Tsukuyomi. After all it only requires an eye contact and then he'll be good as dead. 

So it makes sense that only Uchiha or a sharingan user can match Itachi's power. 



Orochibuto said:


> This thread shouldnt have been allowed to go beyond page 1 and everyone who is not biased can see it, just like the "Itachi vs Galactus" thread was immediatly closed in the OBD preventing trolls from flooding the place.
> 
> With due respect, Orochibuto.



Thanks for your biased opinion. Now next time take your complaints to the mods instead of posting it on a thread and attempting to completely derail it.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 26, 2011)

Lee beating Sasuke in Part I disagrees.
Not serious Orochimaru playing with Sasuke in Part I disagrees.
Gaara beating Sasuke in Part I disagrees.
Sound 4 decimating Sasuke in Part I disagrees.
Kirābī dancing around Sasuke and his team disagrees.
Hashirama disagrees.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Lee beating Sasuke in Part I disagrees.
> Not serious Orochimaru playing with Sasuke in Part I disagrees.
> Gaara beating Sasuke in Part I disagrees.
> Sound 4 decimating Sasuke in Part I disagrees.
> ...



Disagrees with what? Try quoting. 

Non of them could defeat Itachi.  
After all only Uchiha can beat him and non of them above disapproves his statement.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 26, 2011)

What you just said makes no sense. 'Try quoting.' Try quoting what? There's nothing to quote. The message I'm giving by saying 'character x disagrees' is clear. 

Itachi is _not _invincible. He's a strong character, I won't deny it. But there are plenty of characters that can defeat him. His Mangekyō Sharingan makes him a very tough foe to kill and grants him some great offensive abilities. However, they can be countered. Tsukuyomi is ineffective against those who can fly out of his range, fight without looking at his eyes, too fast to be captured or those who are immune to genjutsu. Assuming that he can indeed capture them within it, his in character action would be to try and kill them with a 'normal' jutsu due to the fatigue of using it. Against characters such as A, that wouldn't work due to the raiton no yoroi. Amaterasu is ineffective against characters who can simply block line of sight, get out of range (outside a certain range, it seems that the flames just try to home in rather than spawn on the target), seal it or can counter it like Orochimaru, Sasuke or Gaara. Susano'o is the only jutsu that can't really be countered. It's got a strong defense and a good offense. However, the jutsu takes a toll out of him. All the opponent has to do is evade being hit for long enough and Itachi eventually dies.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

Atlantic Storm said:


> What you just said makes no sense. 'Try quoting.' Try quoting what? There's nothing to quote. The message I'm giving by saying 'character x disagrees' is clear.
> 
> Are you really serious about Itachi being 'invincible'? There are plenty of characters that can defeat him.



You should try quoting because you made no sense. Your post just says this battle disagrees. With what???

Itachi said only Uchiha can defeat him. Just because Sasuke gets defeated by a non-Uchiha does not mean they can defeat Itachi. Are you seriously implying Lee can beat Itachi. 

Itachi is invincible when his in susano mode with Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror. Yes I truly believe that.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> You should try quoting because you made no sense. Your post just says this battle disagrees. With what???



Your thread is essentially suggesting that Uchihas can only be defeated by Uchihas. This is not the case, since both Sasuke and Madara have been defeated by non-Uchihas. Is this clear enough?



> Itachi said only Uchiha can defeat him. Just because Sasuke gets defeated by a non-Uchiha does not mean they can defeat Itachi. Are you seriously implying Lee can beat Itachi*?**



That is called an example.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Your thread is essentially suggesting that Uchihas can only be defeated by Uchihas. This is not the case, since both Sasuke and Madara have been defeated by non-Uchihas. Is this clear enough?



No its not. My thread is suggesting that only Uchiha can defeat Itachi. 



Atlantic Storm said:


> That is called an example.



That example was completely unrelated to this topic.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> No its not. My thread is suggesting that only Uchiha can defeat Itachi.



That's the outward meaning your thread has. 

'You have to see beneath the underneath'
- Kakashi Hatake


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## supersaiyan146 (Apr 26, 2011)

Dude Hatake Kakashi..why do you think Pain can't beat Itachi ?


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

Atlantic Storm said:


> That's the outward meaning your thread has.
> 
> 'You have to see beneath the underneath'
> - Kakashi Hatake



Concession accepted. Now don't post in any of my topics. You have a habit of posting off topic posts.



SuperMinato146 said:


> Dude Hatake Kakashi..why do you think Pain can't beat Itachi ?



When did I say he can't beat Itachi.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> When did I say he can't beat Itachi.



When you said that only Madara and Sasuke can defeat Itachi. Pain isn't Madara or Sasuke.


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## supersaiyan146 (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> When did I say he can't beat Itachi.



Then what exactly are you arguing about by making this thread ?

Pain beats Itachi..that itself invalidates the manga statement you have in the OP .


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## Setas1999 (Apr 26, 2011)

I believe Kakashi now would beat him
Pain would beat him
Raikage/Bee could beat him
Onoki/Gaara should be able to beat him 
and so on


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## dungsi27 (Apr 26, 2011)

Look.Itachi said that only an Uchiha can defeat him(conclusion).And he based that on the power of the sharingan(premise).But we know someone who can defeat the guy with a sharingan stronger than that of his.Therefore,the premise is wrong.And when the premise is wrong,the conclusion is wrong as well.

Your argument is not new at all.When he appeared the first time he said many things,two of them were paid special attention by his fan and J-man's fan.From that time on,both his fans and Jiraiya's fans have been using selective reading to try to support their argument,ignoring the fact that Itachi had been lying all the time.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Then what exactly are you arguing about by making this thread ?
> 
> Pain beats Itachi..that itself invalidates the manga statement you have in the OP .



I'm not to 100% sure what will happen when two invincible opponent fights each other. But I am certain by given feats Itachi > Pain. Since he has not shown the ability to take down Susano.


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## supersaiyan146 (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> I'm not to 100% sure what will happen when two invincible opponent fights each other. But I am certain by given feats Itachi > Pain. Since he has not shown the ability to take down Susano.



No..By feats Pain > Itachi . Chibaku Tensei takes care of Susanoo.


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## Setas1999 (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> I'm not to 100% sure what will happen when two invincible opponent fights each other. But I am certain by given feats Itachi > Pain. Since he has not shown the ability to take down Susano.



he doesn't have too.He could just keap making pains run and dodge.susano drains Itachi life.


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## zlatko (Apr 26, 2011)

Ok will someone close this thread becous this has went out of control. they have made itachi a god like he cant be deafeted by anyone. and the resent about that is becouse itachi wasnt long enough so we can see his potencial he had little part in the manga and than he was killed by sasuke wich made sasuke a "wery powerfull ninja" wich it wasnt fer if i beat mike tayson when he is sick and almost dead that wont made me a hero and plus you al are going by the logick that someone SAID that only and uchiha can deafeta a uchiha it's erelevand it was mentioned like if i say only a man can defet me so stop this troling and acept the fact that itachi can be deafeted by someone else not just by uchiha there was much powerfull ninjas that die before itachi by non uchiha's


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## Yakkai (Apr 26, 2011)

I predict that a lot of people are going to be butthurt when Itachi is taken out by someone other than Sasuke or Madara.


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## Gino (Apr 26, 2011)

You're wrong..............

The comments speak for Itself.......


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## Bahamut Slayer (Apr 26, 2011)

Yakkai said:


> I predict that a lot of people are going to be butthurt when Itachi is taken out by someone other than Sasuke or Madara.



Well I'm not one of them. Seriously, isn't it obvious that Edo Itachi will be taken down by someone other than Sasuke and Madara? Why would either one of them would want to take out Itachi in the first place? One hand, Sasuke would hate the thought of his brother being used again, a mere puppet in the war. On the other hand, Itachi will be killing ninjas of the Shinobi Alliance. Leaf-nins are to be wiped out, those who get in the way shall be wiped out too.


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## Kyu (Apr 26, 2011)

Wow just...wow this has been one hell of a shitstorm!:ho


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## PinkiePool (Apr 26, 2011)

KyuubiV3 said:


> Wow just...wow this has been one hell of a shitstorm!:ho



I enjoyed every second of it


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## zlatko (Apr 26, 2011)

ELT said:


> I enjoyed every second of it



it's a bit iritaiting when you tell someone that the sun is yelow and he is teling you is red that's how this thread went


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> No..By feats Pain > Itachi . Chibaku Tensei takes care of Susanoo.



Yata Mirror!



zlatko said:


> Ok will someone close this thread becous this has went out of control. they have made itachi a god like he cant be deafeted by anyone. and the resent about that is becouse itachi wasnt long enough so we can see his potencial he had little part in the manga and than he was killed by sasuke wich made sasuke a "wery powerfull ninja" wich it wasnt fer if i beat mike tayson when he is sick and almost dead that wont made me a hero and plus you al are going by the logick that someone SAID that only and uchiha can deafeta a uchiha it's erelevand it was mentioned like if i say only a man can defet me so stop this troling and acept the fact that itachi can be deafeted by someone else not just by uchiha there was much powerfull ninjas that die before itachi by non uchiha's



If you don't like a thread you stay out of it. This thread will go on as long people want to discuss about that statement made by Itachi.

I can't be bothered to understand you when you keep making a lot of spelling mistakes. Firstly we are discussing about Itachi's statement, nothing else. Secondly, Sasuke did not defeat Itachi. Itachi simply let Sasuke win. Thirdly, you have 0 evidence of a non Uchiha > Itachi.


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## Forlong (Apr 26, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> I didn't imply, not once Itachi > EMS Madara. Anyway
> Replying to bolded part:
> Easy, have you seen Madara use Tsukuyomi on anyone? Why does he have to capture, or weaken his opponents before he can use his genjutsu? After all Itachi said, his eyes powers are still intact, so where is his Tsukuyomi?  He doesn't have it. He's not Itachi. Madara didn't have the legendary weps either, because if he did, Itachi wouldn't be the one using them now would he? Simple as that. You dont even know for sure if Madara himself awoke the susano, since he said it was so rare for uchiha to awaken this.


Doesn't matter.  It doesn't matter what tools they have but how they use them.  Madara's genjutsu is not as powerful as Itachi's, but like Itachi, he uses what he has to it's fullest.  In terms of skill with genjutsu, Madara is in the same tier as Itachi.



> Don't forget that Itachi was also an extraordinary uchiha, and one of the RARE FEW to awaken the Susano, let alone master it. So it's not much of a stretch to say Itachi > Hashirama, especially considering his fighting style.


What we know of Hashirama's fighting style is that he was respected and admired by someone Itachi _couldn't_ beat.  How does that equate to Itachi>Hashirama?



> Except he's never shown genjutsu in a straight up direct battle, unless they were already at his mercy.


So what!?  To quote Marzgirl: "It's not what you have, it's how you use it."  Madara has easily overcome every advisory we've seen him fight, with only one exception.  All without using MS techs.  He doesn't need such powerful jutsu to be insanely powerful.  He's already skilled enough that he doesn't need them.



> Again who cares? A lion is superior to a King Cobra in terms of strength power, but a Cobra is far deadlier, you get bit, and it's bye bye for you.
> That's how Itachi's Tsukuyomi works, you get caught (which you will eventually) and you're a goner. Then there's the Susano... in case things get too far.


A matter of opinion.  A King Cobra can poison you, but that poison can be cured.  A lion can rip your throat out, and we don't have a cure for that.  That analogy doesn't work.



> And you don't have all the details either on your side to support HOW Hashirama  defeated Madara. Did you ever consider he got reallly lucky, or had  help from a 3rd party Much like Naruto vs Kakuzu?


That fight occurred on the boarder of the Land of Fire, far away from the village and Hishrama's allies.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> You should try quoting because you made no sense. Your post just says this battle disagrees. With what???


With your OP.  Anyone could have told you that.  I'd like to ask you to site these two quotes.  I recall when Itachi's was, but not Madara's.

Now I'll explain carefully why you are completely off your rocker.  First, here are various translations of Itachi's statement:
http://www.leafninja.com/ranks.php
aegon-rokudo
So there is another form of translation for the statement.  Which one is closer to the actual meaning of the Japanese?  I'm going to say the second because Itachi deliberately avoided fighting Jiraiya.  This implies the possibility of him losing to Jiraiya, even with Kisame's help.  Not only that, you forgot the context.  Kakashi and Itachi were referring to genjutsu.  Remember that Itachi has to put someone under genjutsu for it to work.  This can be avoided, as Naruto proved.  He has managed to keep Itachi from using his most powerful genjutsu _both_ times they tangled.  So it didn't matter if he could counter MS genjutsu, because Itachi couldn't put him under it and needed have a different strategy.

Saying that the Sharingan makes Itachi superior to everyone is an _insult_ to him.  His skill is what makes him such a spectacular shinobi.  It doesn't matter if he has the Sharingan eye or no eyes, his skill is the only thing that truly matters.  With fans like this, who needs haters.


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## ZE (Apr 26, 2011)

"Only Madara and Sasuke can defeat Itachi."

Proven wrong by Itachi when he said Jiraiya had a chance of beating him or when Kishimoto introduced characters much (and when I say much I mean infinitely stronger) than both Sasuke and Madara.


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## supersaiyan146 (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Yata Mirror!



Yata Mirror is going to do what?


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

Forlong said:


> With your OP.  Anyone could have told you that.  I'd like to ask you to site these two quotes.  I recall when Itachi's was, but not Madara's.
> 
> Now I'll explain carefully why you are completely off your rocker.  First, here are various translations of Itachi's statement:
> http://www.leafninja.com/ranks.php
> ...



-Itachi was on Konoha side from the start. So he did not fight Jiraiya because he did not want to weaken Konoha. Not to mention Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Sasuke which greatly drained his power. Itachi statement on losing against Jiraiya is 100% false since he said himself + Kisame + anyone from akatsuki including Nagato himself will not make any difference if they fought Jiraiya. The result will still be the same which will be a stalemate. Now if you think Jiraiya = or > Itachi, Kisame and someone else from Akatsuki then you are a hardcore Itachi hater. While your a hardcore Jiraiya fan.
-Itachi most powerful genjutsu was Tsukiyomi. And Itachi never tried to use it on Naruto so I'm not sure what your on about. The 30% chakra Itachi clone which used genjutsu on Naruto, did not have enough chakra to cast Tsukuyomi.
-I never said Sharingan makes Itachi superior to everyone. Next time you should also trying quoting. When your a hater, you need better logic and understanding of the manga. After all you think Jiraiya => Itachi + Kisame and possibly Pain. Now thats absurd.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

ZE said:


> "Only Madara and Sasuke can defeat Itachi."
> 
> Proven wrong by Itachi when he said Jiraiya had a chance of beating him or when Kishimoto introduced characters much (and when I say much I mean infinitely stronger) than both Sasuke and Madara.



That statement is false. 

Itachi said that Itachi + Kisame + Anyone from Akatsuki (Including Nagato) will still not be enough to beat Jiraiya. Now that is not believable, even Kisame questioned Itachi right after about this statement.


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## Raigamasa (Apr 26, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Yata Mirror is going to do what?



Drain his chakra, and fuck up his eyes. Itachi ain't touching Pain.

According to Madara, Rikudou > Uchiha/Senju. Guess what exactly Rikudou-Sennin and Nagato are 
And Hashirama > any Uchiha, too ^


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Yata Mirror is going to do what?



Databook:


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## supersaiyan146 (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Databook:



Expalin me how its magically gonna negate Chibaku Tensei .

Itachi is gonna just get pulled in to the mini moon and all Yata Mirror is gonna do is protect Itachi from getting crushed until his chakra is exhausted . Do you disagree?


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## PinkiePool (Apr 26, 2011)

Is this Edo Itachi you're speaknig about or Alive Itachi? Because either way there's pleanty of people that can beat him, Edo Itachi just has a larger range


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## Closet Pervert (Apr 26, 2011)

In other news, the whole of Akatsuki couldn't have beaten Jiraiya without at least Itachi and Kisame dying in part 1.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Expalin me how its magically gonna negate Chibaku Tensei .
> 
> Itachi is gonna just get pulled in to the mini moon and all Yata Mirror is gonna do is protect Itachi from getting crushed until his chakra is exhausted . Do you disagree?



Yes, I disagree. I do not know what will happen when these two jutsu goes head to head. But I do know that Itachi can beat Pain before he utilize this jutsu. Itachi is known to finish his battle quick and he can start with his MS jutsu if he wants to end the battle quick. Chibaku Tensei requires hand seal and a lot of time to use while Itachi can summon Susano faster than lightning. After that all he will need is one strike from Totsuka Sword to cut of Pain's head and ending the battle.


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## supersaiyan146 (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Yes, I disagree. I do not know what will happen when these two jutsu goes head to head. But I do know that Itachi can beat Pain before he utilize this jutsu. .



Dude c'mon 



> Itachi is known to finish his battle quick and he can start with his MS jutsu if he wants to end the battle quick. Chibaku Tensei requires hand seal and a lot of time to use while Itachi can summon Susano faster than lightning. After that all he will need is one strike from Totsuka Sword to cut of Pain's head and ending the battle



Itachi summons Susanoo ..Pain moves out of its  range and utilizes Chibaku Tensei . Why would the paths just blindly charge in to Susanoo ?


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## jimbob631 (Apr 26, 2011)

For the people who think Itachi is superior to pain I have a simple question.  If Itachi was superior why didn't he ever make a move against him?  If he's stronger than Pain he should be able to beat Madara too right, so how come he went along with akatsuki's plans and didn't try and stop them?


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## zlatko (Apr 26, 2011)

Ok pain= 6 bodys + difrent power's each even if he manages to kill the bodys he wont have chakra plus they all have RInegan the ULTIMATE ocular jutsu more powerfull then mangekyou sharingan


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Dude c'mon
> 
> Itachi summons Susanoo ..Pain moves out of its  range and utilizes Chibaku Tensei . Why would the paths just blindly charge in to Susanoo ?



Unless you have Pain speed feats his not moving out of Susano, the size of a building. After all Totsuka Sword can extend and strike faster than Orochimaru's reaction.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> For the people who think Itachi is superior to pain I have a simple question.  If Itachi was superior why didn't he ever make a move against him?  If he's stronger than Pain he should be able to beat Madara too right, so how come he went along with akatsuki's plans and didn't try and stop them?



I don't think Itachi is superior to Pain.

Pain has more powerful jutsu but Itachi has more deadly, one hit jutsu. 

Someone like Hidan can beat Sage Jiraiya if he gets his blood. 

It really is just that simple.


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## boohead (Apr 26, 2011)

*Shodai, Pain, and RMNaruto *can most likely beat him given manga feats and facts.  With the Kages, Minato, & Bee I think it can go both ways.  This is all considering he's healthy and not coughing up aids.  Coughing up aids version_ (how he actually was in the Manga)_ would probably lose to most of these, but possibly kill them first before dying.


I know Shodai is dead but so is Itachi, so its fair game


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## supersaiyan146 (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Unless you have Pain speed feats his not moving out of Susano, the size of a building. After all Totsuka Sword can extend and strike faster than Orochimaru's reaction.



I concede . Yep Itachi is gonna set up Susanoo and just slice through the Pain paths while they stand there helpless . 

Have a nice day . I am done with the debate.


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## Space Jam (Apr 26, 2011)

Hiruzen could counter ever technique even Mangekyo sharingan


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

zlatko said:


> Ok pain= 6 bodys + difrent power's each even if he manages to kill the bodys he wont have chakra plus they all have RInegan the ULTIMATE ocular jutsu more powerfull then mangekyou sharingan



Your just speculating. 

One amaterasu can take out all of the Pains if they stand together. Which they do in character. One strike from Susano takes care of all of them. Since they have no counter to Susano attacks. Totsuka Sword isn't a jutsu or has any chakra in it, its a weapon therefore Pain cannot absorb its attacks.


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## Algol (Apr 26, 2011)

i think killer bee would beat itachi, he is a bad matchup for itachi. also pain... pain would destroy itachi as well. i also still say jiraiya, maybe minato cuz of teleport speed, shodai most def, maybe nidaime cuz of s/t and edo tensai, possibly current naruto, and yes, current madara and sasuke.

hell, why isnt anyone saying onoki, he has island buster techs... that would def take care of susanoo

and again, i want to reiterate, pain's got this. i can enver imagine itachi soloing konoha like pain did. plus, if itachi doesn't know the secret, he can't beat real nagato anyway. fat pain absorbs amaterasu, tsukiyomi would need to hit ALL the bodies, and animal realm throwing summons at susannoo, while deva uses super shinra tensei or chibaku tensai would finish the job, and with that other dude reviving the bodies, i can't see itachi winning unless he knows all of pain's secrets like naruto did


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## PinkiePool (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Unless you have Pain *speed feats *his not moving out of Susano, the size of a building.


Show me sum Susanoo speed feats dude, can't get enough of them 


> After all *Totsuka Sword can extend and strike faster than Orochimaru's reaction*.


The only enemy we've seen Totsuke sword take down is a fucking huge target that for all we now was stationary. Orochimaru got slashed with he sword because he though he'd be immune to its effects, so he didn?t even _try_ to evade it, not to mention he didn?t posses a lower body section at the time.

There is no indication that Itachi?s Susanoo is faster than Orichimaru?s reactions because the Snake Sannin didn?t try to react to it


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## boohead (Apr 26, 2011)

Jfizz said:


> i think killer bee would beat itachi, he is a bad matchup for itachi. also pain... pain would destroy itachi as well. i also still say jiraiya, maybe minato cuz of teleport speed, shodai most def, maybe nidaime cuz of s/t and edo tensai, possibly current naruto, and yes, current madara and sasuke.
> 
> hell, why isnt anyone saying onoki, he has island buster techs... that would def take care of susanoo
> 
> and again, i want to reiterate, pain's got this. i can enver imagine itachi soloing konoha like pain did. plus, if itachi doesn't know the secret, he can't beat real nagato anyway. fat pain absorbs amaterasu, tsukiyomi would need to hit ALL the bodies, and animal realm throwing summons at susannoo, while deva uses super shinra tensei or chibaku tensai would finish the job, and with that other dude reviving the bodies, i can't see itachi winning unless he knows all of pain's secrets like naruto did



Agreed. I think most of these characters have a good chance of beating him, especially if  we are talking about the real Itachi and not the fan-fiction "healthy" Itachi.


Still need to see more Nidaimi and Onoki feats though, but the rest are very very plausible, if not certain.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

ELT said:


> Show me sum Susanoo speed feats dude, can't get enough of them



The Zaru smiley indicates you don't need them.  



ELT said:


> The only enemy we've seen Totsuke sword take down is a fucking huge target that for all we now was stationary. Orochimaru got slashed with he sword because he though he'd be immune to its effects, so he didn?t even _try_ to evade it, not to mention he didn?t posses a lower body section at the time.



Orochimaru isn't something I would call huge target. In the middle of his sentence Itachi stab Orochimaru straight through his heart. Of course he couldn't evade it since its faster than his reaction.



ELT said:


> There is no indication that Itachi?s Susanoo is faster than Orichimaru?s reactions because the Snake Sannin didn?t try to react to it



No proof or evidence to back up your point.


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## ZE (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> That statement is false.


The statement that my statement is false is false 



> Itachi said that Itachi + Kisame + Anyone from Akatsuki (Including Nagato) will still not be enough to beat Jiraiya. Now that is not believable, even Kisame questioned Itachi right after about this statement.


I'm afraid Itachi didn't mention Nagato and the other akatsuki members here: 


And about Susanoo... sure, it's one hell of a jutsu. I wonder how much better Gedo Mazo powered up by 7 bijuus is. You know who else besides Madara could summon it, don't you?


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## zlatko (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Your just speculating.
> 
> One amaterasu can take out all of the Pains if they stand together. Which they do in character. One strike from Susano takes care of all of them. Since they have no counter to Susano attacks. Totsuka Sword isn't a jutsu or has any chakra in it, its a weapon therefore Pain cannot absorb its attacks.



your forgeting one of them is resistant of ninjutsu and they stay in formation wich can be esy break plus how will he fight 6 bodys + a lot of sumonings


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## zlatko (Apr 26, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> I concede . Yep Itachi is gonna set up Susanoo and just slice through the Pain paths while they stand there helpless .
> 
> Have a nice day . I am done with the debate.



dont give up you have our suport


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## ZE (Apr 26, 2011)

I have a question. Why would Pain evade Susanoo's sword when he can repel it and send it flying out of Susanoo's hand? Susanoo ain't killing Deva Pain and that's at least one body he can't take out, precisely the body that can use CT to finish it.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

ZE said:


> The statement that my statement is false is false
> 
> I'm afraid Itachi didn't mention Nagato and the other akatsuki members here:


_
"Yeah if we faced off, we might end up killing each other. At very least we might end up hurting each other"_

-This part of the quote indicates that the match will equal draw. In other words Itachi is saying himself and Kisame will not be able to defeat Jiraiya.
_
"Even if I had more back up, it probably wouldn't change the outcome"_

Now in this part of the quote, Itachi tells us that even with more back up the outcome will still stay the same. Now I don't know about you, but that statement is 100% false. It is not believable which is why Kisame questioned Itachi.

At that time only back up Itachi had was the akatsuki. Therefore his saying that...

Jiraiya = or > Itachi + Kisame + Akatsuki (Nagato, Hidan, Kakuzu...)



ZE said:


> And about Susanoo... sure, it's one hell of a jutsu. I wonder how much better Gedo Mazo powered up by 7 bijuus is. You know who else besides Madara could summon it, don't you?



Yeah you can keep wondering about that. Yes I know Madara can summon it. Your point?


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## zlatko (Apr 26, 2011)

ZE said:


> I have a question. Why would Pain evade Susanoo's sword when he can repel it and send it flying out of Susanoo's hand? Susanoo ain't killing Deva Pain and that's at least one body he can't take out, precisely the body that can use CT to finish it.



well becous by there logick susano and pain are gods


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## S (Apr 26, 2011)

People that could beat Itachi:

1. Nagato/Pein 
2. RM Naruto/EMS Sasuke
3. Killerbee with Samehada
4. Jiraiya
5. Raikage
6. Gaara if he has home advantage
7. Gai with gates
8. Kabuto with edos
9. Hanzo
10. Tsuchikage
11. Ginkaku brothers
12. Kakashi 50/50
13. Shikamru with preb. 50/50
14. Butterfly Chouji 50/50

People that could beat Madara:
1. Kabuto for sure 
2. Nagato not so sure

This is how I see it. 
troll


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

zlatko said:


> your forgeting one of them is resistant of ninjutsu and they stay in formation wich can be esy break plus how will he fight 6 bodys + a lot of sumonings



Totsuka Sword is not a ninjutsu. One of them can resist ninjutsu but as we seen it takes time for him to absorb the attacks leaving himself open in the back. 

Susano, Amaterasu and MS genjutsu. 
Itachi can control summons with his MS, just like Sasuke did to Manda with his sharingan. 



zlatko said:


> dont give up you have our suport



His given up because he knows his wrong and can't back up his point with manga evidence. I asked him to provide manga evidence and he gives up.


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## zlatko (Apr 26, 2011)

S said:


> People that could beat Itachi:
> 
> 1. Nagato/Pein
> 2. RM Naruto/EMS Sasuke
> ...


 i dont think:kakashi, gai, raikgae,s shikamaru and chochi could defet hi


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 26, 2011)

CRI-MI-NI-MI-NAL said:


> How do you know it wasnt Madara vs Shodai + Entire leaf?



Shodai + Entire leaf is ridiculous. They would just get in the way, which would make Shodai's victory over Madara even more impressive.

As for "only an Uchiha can beat an Uchiha" that is just an exaggeration for effect. I mean, if he said "only an Uchiha (and anyone stronger than that Uchiha) can beat an Uchiha" it would be a decidedly less powerful statement. 



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Susano, Amaterasu and MS genjutsu.
> Itachi can control summons with his MS, just like Sasuke did to Manda with his sharingan.



Genjutsu shouldn't really work on dead bodies being manipulated, and Susanoo isn't nearly as good as people say it is. Itachi can't keep it up for long, and you can always do this thing called dodging, I hear Sakura is an expert at it.  But seriously, Itachi has a sword for offense, a sword with limited range (and Pain has long range attacks) that kills him pretty quickly. As for Amaterasu, just have hell realm eat the path being burned and it's made useless, while Itachi's bleeding more blood from his eyes than Sakura cries.

Pain's summons are also being controlled by Rinnegan (based on their eyes and the black chakra rods and the fact that they don't talk so probably have no will of their own). Since Rinnegan > Sharingan and Nagato's chakra has controlling properties too I'm guessing if Itachi tries controlling Pain's summons he would be controlled by Pain.

I know these are only arguments in Pain's favor, but surely these are enough to make it clear Pain could beat Itachi. And as for Prime/Healthy Itachi, screw that because Kishi made him injured because he would be too powerful to make sense in the manga if he wasn't so that's not a good argument. Plus, Nagato was also pretty badly ill but still solo'd a village.

tl;dr (what does this even stand for?)

Pain's feats > Itachi's. Pain's hype > Itachi's. Pain > Itachi.

I'm not gonna bother making arguments for other characters but there are other characters other than Pain who could beat Itachi,


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## zlatko (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Totsuka Sword is not a ninjutsu. One of them can resist ninjutsu but as we seen it takes time for him to absorb the attacks leaving himself open in the back.
> 
> Susano, Amaterasu and MS genjutsu.
> Itachi can control summons with his MS, just like Sasuke did to Manda with his sharingan.
> ...



i ment about the amaterasu the sword could be deal with tendo pain and plus that sumoning dog that can multiply


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

ZE said:


> I have a question. Why would Pain evade Susanoo's sword when he can repel it and send it flying out of Susanoo's hand? Susanoo ain't killing Deva Pain and that's at least one body he can't take out, precisely the body that can use CT to finish it.



And I have the answer. 

- I don't know why Pain will evade it, SuperMinato146 said that.
- Why? Pain Shinra Tensei requires 5 seconds intervals and CT requires handseal and some time to perform. While Itachi can utilize Susano faster than lightning. He could literally summon and unsummon Susano instantly.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 26, 2011)

Here's the really big target Itach's Susanoo cut down. Here's Oro In a possition that suggest he was stationary (note the arms and legs are still inside the serpent). And finally Oro here underestimating the effect of the sword and doesn't even _notice_ that Itachi has the Totsuka sword before he's cut, it is _after_ he is cut that he sees the ditch he's in.

So in short, Susano'o's "speed feats" are not in any way impressive since all that it has been shown to be able to do is A) Cut down a big target that was rushing directly at him with no knowledge of its capabilities; B) Cut down someone who was unable to move at the time; C) Someone who didn?t mind being cut (as he didn?t know he was facing the Totsuke sword) and wasn?t exactly expecting the need to react the a blow for he thought himself immortal.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

zlatko said:


> well becous by there logick susano and pain are gods



No, thats just what you think our logic is but in fact their is only 1 god in Narutoverse and that is Rikkoudou.


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## zlatko (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> No, thats just what you think our logic is but in fact their is only 1 god in Narutoverse and that is Rikkoudou.



then why are you sayng that itachi could beat by madara and sasuke when pain and naruto are more stronger


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## ZE (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> _
> "Yeah if we faced off, we might end up killing each other. At very least we might end up hurting each other"_
> 
> -This part of the quote indicates that the match will equal draw. In other words Itachi is saying himself and Kisame will not be able to defeat Jiraiya.


Proving your thread wrong.


Kakashi Hatake said:


> _
> "Even if I had more back up, it probably wouldn't change the outcome"_
> 
> Now in this part of the quote, Itachi tells us that even with more back up the outcome will still stay the same. Now I don't know about you, but that statement is 100% false. It is not believable which is why Kisame questioned Itachi.
> ...


One bijuu per person. Itachi's bijuu was the Kyuubi. The other akatsuki weren't going to help him capture it... it never happened. Itachi wasn't talking about the other akatsuki... much less the leader, who is the one who orders him around. 



> Yeah you can keep wondering about that. Yes I know Madara can summon it. Your point?


My logic is simple. In a manga where the two strongest bloodlines are from the sejuu and uchiha, the strongest characters are going to be those who attain both powers. In other words, those closer to RS. Nagato, Madara, and Rikudou Sennin. 

And if that wasn't enough, Pain was the akatsuki leader, not Itachi, and the character with the best on panel feats in the manga. That's all you need to follow... use logic and you'll get why Itachi isn't on Pain's level. But hey, if you like to be a fanboy, go ahead and dream of having a character who no longer has relevance power-wise as the strongest ever.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

zlatko said:


> i ment about the amaterasu the sword could be deal with tendo pain and plus that sumoning dog that can multiply



Amaterasu can deal with the dog. Itachi can control the dog with his sharingan. Also you haven't answered to the rest of my post.



zlatko said:


> then why are you sayng that itachi could beat by madara and sasuke when pain and naruto are more stronger



I'm not suggesting it, manga suggested it. The quotes in the OP is from the manga.


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## supersaiyan146 (Apr 26, 2011)

zlatko said:


> dont give up you have our suport



A smart enough guy should know when to stop something..


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## zlatko (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Amaterasu can deal with the dog. Itachi can control the dog with his sharingan. Also you haven't answered to the rest of my post.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not suggesting it, manga suggested it. The quotes in the OP is from the manga.



by what logick the sharingan can outpower the rinegan ????????


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

ZE said:


> Proving your thread wrong.
> 
> One bijuu per person. Itachi's bijuu was the Kyuubi. The other akatsuki weren't going to help him capture it... it never happened. Itachi wasn't talking about the other akatsuki... much less the leader, who is the one who orders him around.
> 
> ...



You haven't proved my thread wrong, since that statement was proven to be incorrect/false.

Also your just speculating.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

zlatko said:


> by what logick the sharingan can outpower the rinegan ????????



Who said that?

Rinnegan > Sharingan. 

Sharingan User can beat Pain. Simply because Pain has not mastered Rinnegan.


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## zlatko (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Who said that?
> 
> Rinnegan > Sharingan.
> 
> Sharingan User can beat Pain. Simply because Pain has not mastered Rinnegan.



you said the sharingan can control the dog Who are controled by rinegan.
who said that he hasn mastered the rinegan bringing people form the afterlifie is concidered somthing like mastering


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## ZE (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> You haven't proved my thread wrong, since that statement was proven to be incorrect/false.


Since when? 

And if that statement was proven incorrect, so was yours (proven wrong by Itachi himself). 



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Also your just speculating.


No, you are. You are speculating that Itachi had mystical powers that could somehow allow him to compete with his leader. Because, from what he has shown, he sure isn't on Pain's level. Call me when Itachi has a summon with the power of seven bijuus.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Sharingan User can beat Pain. Simply because Pain has not mastered Rinnegan.



Madara, someone who mastered the sharingan, disagrees.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

zlatko said:


> you said the sharingan can control the dog Who are controled by rinegan.
> who said that he hasn mastered the rinegan bringing people form the afterlifie is concidered somthing like mastering



Nagato himself said he is nothing compared to Rikkoudou who also possessed Rinnegan. 

Unless you think Nagato > Rikkoduou - God


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## zlatko (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Nagato himself said he is nothing compared to Rikkoudou who also possessed Rinnegan.
> 
> Unless you think Nagato > Rikkoduou - God



rikudo had the bijys in him that's a lot of chakra so thats why he wasnt to his level if nagato had the 10 tailed in him than he whould have made another moon to capture the kyubi


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## ZE (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Unless you think Nagato > Rikkoduou - God



Would such a statement be that unthinkable? Looking at this thread's title, you're the one who thinks Itachi>RS. Nagato, who was called RS' reincarnation, being stronger than RS wouldn't be more delusional than Itachi being >RS.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

ZE said:


> Since when?
> 
> And if that statement was proven incorrect, so was yours (proven wrong by Itachi himself).



Since part II. 

Unless you can prove Jiraiya > Itachi + Kisame + [Hidan, Kakuzu, Nagato, Madara, Dedaira]



ZE said:


> No, you are. You are speculating that Itachi had mystical powers that could somehow allow him to compete with his leader. Because, from what he has shown, he sure isn't on Pain's level. Call me when Itachi has a summon with the power of seven bijuus.
> 
> Madara, someone who mastered the sharingan, disagrees.



When did I say Itachi has mystical powers?

When do you need to have the power of the 7 bijuus to be on Pain's level? 
Naruto beat Pain without the power of the 7 Bijuus. He beat him with one bijuu sealed within him.

I never said Madara> Itachi. If you read the title, only Madara and Sasuke > Itachi.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

zlatko said:


> rikudo had the bijys in him that's a lot of chakra so thats why he wasnt to his level if nagato had the 10 tailed in him than he whould have made another moon to capture the kyubi



Rikkoudou created the moon. Nagato stated he has not mastered the rinnegan like Rikkoudou Senin.

Manga disagrees with you.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

ZE said:


> Would such a statement be that unthinkable? Looking at this thread's title, you're the one who thinks Itachi>RS. Nagato, who was called RS' reincarnation, being stronger than RS wouldn't be more delusional than Itachi being >RS.



When did I say Itachi > RS. 

RS has Uchiha blood.


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## ZE (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Since part II.
> 
> Unless you can prove Jiraiya > Itachi + Kisame + [Hidan, Kakuzu, Nagato, Madara, Dedaira]


Prove me that Itachi was refering to the other akatsuki and that the akatsuki would help him get bijuu if he requested their help!



> When do you need to have the power of the 7 bijuus to be on Pain's level?
> Naruto beat Pain without the power of the 7 Bijuus. He beat him with one bijuu sealed within him.


Naruto beat Pain? As far as I know Konoha+Kyuubi beat Pain and that was a Pain without killing intent and without using Gedo Mazo. 



> I never said Madara> Itachi. If you read the title, only Madara and Sasuke > Itachi.


I'm just saying that Madara thinks that this statement is bullshit: 
"Sharingan User can beat Pain".


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## Aleph-1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Gosh guys, you don't _have_ to be an Uchiha to defeat an Uchiha. Naruto and Killer Bee are testament to this.  Madara may be a legend of sorts in the storyline, but he's human and has talked out of his ass before in the manga, such as that quote from him regarding Sharingan being needed to defeat a Sharingan user.

Also, I never participated in the Jiraiya v. Itachi debate, but the simple fact that the debate even exists should tell you that it's possible for Jiraiya (and maybe Nagato/Pein as well) to defeat him. They may be dead now, but honestly, it's a huge stretch to assume that no currently living characters in the series can defeat Itachi.


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## ZE (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> When did I say Itachi > RS.
> 
> RS has Uchiha blood.



But he ain't Madara and Sasuke and according to you, only Madara and Sasuke can defeat Itachi, which is just


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## Santoryu (Apr 26, 2011)

Santisimo said:


> OP doesn't realize that the Uchiha are a bunch of narcissist and talk out of their ass often?
> 
> They think they're better than everyone and consider anyone who isn't Uchiha lesser than they are. Sort of like France.



This, I'm sure Itachi said only a true Uchiha could awaken the Mangekyo or something however Kakashi still managed to do it.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Rikkoudou created the moon. Nagato stated he has not mastered the rinnegan like Rikkoudou Senin.
> 
> Manga disagrees with you.





"_Compared to Rikkoudou this is nothing_" never it is implies Nagato lacks mastery over the Rinnegan. It is just a comparison on feats, not the mastery of the doujutsu.

Manga disagrees with you also in the matter of the moon since according to the manga Rikkoudou used the Jubbi's body to create the moon and not Chibaku Tensei


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## Closet Pervert (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Amaterasu can deal with the dog. Itachi can control the dog with his sharingan.


Anyone can control the dog they just need Shisui's eye. They can also switch eyes with someone who knows Amaterasu and turn the Amaterasu off.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 26, 2011)

Closet Pervert said:


> Anyone can control the dog they just need Shisui's eye.



But the point the otehr person is bringing in is that Nagato's summons are _already_ under the influence of a doujutsu (the Rinnegan). So for a Sharingan user to take over Nagato's summon they must be able to overpower the effect of the stronger doujutsu. Plus Pain is able to do *more than one* summon at a time. How many summons can the Sharingan take over at a given time? How fast can the do it? What's stopping pain to launch a shitoad of summons at the Uchiha and let them overwhelm him/her with superior number?


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

ZE said:


> Prove me that Itachi was refering to the other akatsuki and that the akatsuki would help him get bijuu if he requested their help!



Sure, by Back up Itachi meant Akatsuki because Itachi is in Akatsuki organisation. Only back up Itachi had was the akatsuki.

Unless you can prove Itachi was referring to someone else when he said back up.



ZE said:


> Naruto beat Pain? As far as I know Konoha+Kyuubi beat Pain and that was a Pain without killing intent and without using Gedo Mazo.



No it wasn't Kyuubi, Naruto > Pain. Kyuubi is sealed within Naruto.



ZE said:


> I'm just saying that Madara thinks that this statement is bullshit:
> "Sharingan User can beat Pain".



How do you know he thinks that? Provide manga proof please.

Or else your just speculating AGAIN.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

ZE said:


> But he ain't Madara and Sasuke and according to you, only Madara and Sasuke can defeat Itachi, which is just



Only Madara and Sasuke can defeat Itachi, RIGHT NOW. RS isn't alive.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

ELT said:


> "_Compared to Rikkoudou this is nothing_" never it is implies Nagato lacks mastery over the Rinnegan. It is just a comparison on feats, not the mastery of the doujutsu.
> 
> Manga disagrees with you also in the matter of the moon since according to the manga Rikkoudou used the Jubbi's body to create the moon and not Chibaku Tensei



The jutsu was Chibaku Tensei. He used Juubi's chakra.

That statement means that Rikkoudou is more powerful than him. Which is true since Rikkoudou created Ninjutsu which Nagato didn't.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

Closet Pervert said:


> Anyone can control the dog they just need Shisui's eye. They can also switch eyes with someone who knows Amaterasu and turn the Amaterasu off.



Shisui Eyes = Sharingan.

They just simply needs the sharingan to control a summon.


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## ZE (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Sure, by Back up Itachi meant Akatsuki because Itachi is in Akatsuki organisation. Only back up Itachi had was the akatsuki.
> 
> Unless you can prove Itachi was referring to someone else when he said back up.


Burden of proof is on you. I wasn't the one who made the thread. Itachi could've been referring to Yura for all we know and no akatsuki team has ever helped other team to catch a bijuu. 



> No it wasn't Kyuubi, Naruto > Pain. Kyuubi is sealed within Naruto.


Kyuubi and Naruto + Konoha proved to be quite a challenge for a non-bloodlusted Pain, indeed. 



> How do you know he thinks that? Provide manga proof please.
> 
> Or else your just speculating AGAIN.






Kakashi Hatake said:


> Only Madara and Sasuke can defeat Itachi, RIGHT NOW. RS isn't alive.


No "right now" in the thread title from what I can see.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> The jutsu was Chibaku Tensei. He used Juubi's chakra.
> 
> That statement means that Rikkoudou is more powerful than him. Which is true since Rikkoudou created Ninjutsu which Nagato didn't.



Right so Rikudo had the Juubi?s chakra at his disposal to managa the feat of moon creation. So the matter of Rinnegan mastery is never the issue, it simply that Rikudo had better reasources.

And why would Nagato need to create ninjutsu in the first place since it was already there? Why reinvent the wheel when you already got sports-cars? : zaru


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 26, 2011)

ZE said:


> Burden of proof is on you. I wasn't the one who made the thread. Itachi could've been referring to Yura for all we know and no akatsuki team has ever helped other team to catch a bijuu.



What proof do you want?

Itachi referred to Akatsuki since thats the only back up he had. Itachi said even with back up he still won't be able to beat Jiraiya. By back up he meant Akatsuki. 

Who else was he referring to? Who are you trying to say was Itachi's ally at that time?

I told you Itachi back up is akatsuki. If you don't think so then tell me who else could be his back up.



ZE said:


> Kyuubi and Naruto + Konoha proved to be quite a challenge for a non-bloodlusted Pain, indeed.





What are you trying to show me with just a link with no text?

Try expanding your points and explaining it.

Naruto > Pain.


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## ZE (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> What proof do you want?
> 
> Itachi referred to Akatsuki since thats the only back up he had.


Yuura disagrees. Not only that, but Itachi wouldn't get any help because Pain knows that the Kyuubi has to be sealed last. 



> By back up he meant Akatsuki.


Proof? 



> Who else was he referring to? Who are you trying to say was Itachi's ally at that time?
> 
> I told you Itachi back up is akatsuki. If you don't think so then tell me who else could be his back up.


Proof that akatsuki would serve as backup if requested? When has an akatsuki team ever helped another team? 



> What are you trying to show me with just a link with no text?
> 
> Try expanding your points and explaining it.


According to Madara, Pain is invincible, which shows that the statement "a sharingan user can beat Pain" was wrong because Madara doesn't believe a sharingan user can beat Pain.


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## butcher50 (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> *"An eye for an eye, to defeat an Uchiha, they needed the sharingan..." - Madara to Sasuke *
> Based on this quote, only Kakashi, Sasuke and Madara can defeat Itachi.



verbal hype was never meant to be taken with 100% literal seriousness.

however you do need an massively extraordinary advantage/quality/luck/ability/power/skill/talent to defeat an elite-class uchihan like sasuke, madara, itachi...etc.




Kakashi Hatake said:


> *"Your body is well suited for sharingan...but only the one with same bloodline as me can defeat me." - Itachi to Kakashi*
> But based on this quote only Sasuke and Madara can defeat Itachi.



a masking boast that means "only sasuke is allowed to have a one-on-one Highlander duel with me.......when he's ready"

Itachi always avoided (as much as possible) directly fighting/battling opponents which had nothing to do with his Highlander complex issues, which means nearly everyone else.


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## Jak N Blak (Apr 26, 2011)

OP is making people face Itachi in situations that suit Itachi best e.g them being in range of Totsuka's sword or Itachi is starting out with Susanoo activated or their in range of his eyesight...so I shall do the same.

1. Kabuto sending every last one of his Edo summons to fight him = Kabuto wins.
2. Kakashi can Kamui Itachi to another dimension if Itachi is not aware of his pressence.
3. Raikage has shown the capabilities to avoid amaterasu of all things. Susanoo does not last forever. As soon as Susanoo is deactivated Raikage will Lariat his head off.
4. Oonoki was capable of trapping a sharingan user in his cube before they can react. Itachi will die.
5. Gaara can defeat him depending on the location and distance. If they start out close range and around frikin water then Itachi can win. But if they start out with Gaara in the sky and around desert-level sand, Itachi will lose since Gaara's sand can already defend against Amaterasu...Itachi's only long range attack that has a shot of getting through Gaara's defense from long-range. Itachi will get buried under 10-tons of sand since he's a ground fighter. I dont see him getting out of his quicksand either.

These are the people that are alive that can defeat him. Try to counter, it will be humorous to read.


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## zlatko (Apr 26, 2011)

Ok this is the statment that only a sharingan can defeat a sharingan  here he say that only a sharingan can counter a mangekyou sharingan and the reason he cam to the viliga was to " find sasuke "  wich was a lie he intentionaly lead kakashi that he came to take sasuke " Fearing that only he can kill him" while the reason was to find the nine tailed host naruto and another more important reason  he came towarn Dazno to stay away from sasuke so this qoute  istn reliable becouse he was thinking about his mangekyou sharingan and if we start beliving evrybody what the will say than we will have:  Sasuke and naruto Dieing by Haky becouse they "cant beat him" lower right corner picture,  Kakashi dieing by haku becouse he is "more powerfull than him" said by zabuza lower left corner picture,  and naruto desteny was  to lose in the chunin exam in the first round said by neji second panel at top so the statments arent 100% true
PS: Dont bitch about my speling i understand english wery well but i am a bad speler when someone will talk and right in my language than he can judge me until than Shut up


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## Orochibuto (Apr 26, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> You created off topic posts.



And you created a troll thread based on fallacious statements. I was just making a big plea to the mods here to fucking enforce the NO FANBOYISM rule that is there, you clearly are a fanboy goos sir. Anyway well its irrelevant, I will limit myself just to try to discuss with you why Itahci isnt invincible, since lucky to you I know if I keep refering to this point I will get "offtopicness" ban from the moderation while fanboys and trolls go free as always in the KL, sometimes I wish the Outskirts Battledome moderation team took over KL .

So well, lets go into this hell and waste of time discussion trying to prove you Itachi isnt invincible, not that it changes a thing since you and fanboys as always will always find an excuse not to concede based on statements or hype and ignoring feats, having said that I just leave my plea poster here to the mods and they will know what to do, thus I will proceed now to debate the topic with you.

Shall we begin?



Kakashi Hatake said:


> I think you need to rethink. This thread is completely valid and has nothing to do with fanboyism. Itachi is invincible, *his sword can one hit kill even those with bulletproof bodies like Superman has*... equipped with Yata Mirror, a shield which can repel/negate whatever you call it every single attacks. It is invincible whether you like it or not.



WTF dude? Do you actually think that Itachi would beat Superman in a fight? Is this what you are saying? 

INVINCIBLE? INVINCIBLE?! Do you have a fucking idea of what the word invincible means? Do you think Itachi would beat RS in a fight? If not he is not invincible.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Therefore a non-Uchiha will find its extremely difficult to beat Itachi. After all they will have to pass Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi which is very unlikely. We have only seen Raikage evade Amaterasu attack. But again Raikage is the fastest character in the manga. But it is impossible for Raikage to evade Tsukuyomi. After all it only requires an eye contact and then he'll be good as dead.



Pain would beat Itachi, Hashirama beated EMS Madara with Kyuubi, henceforth would beat Itachi. And please dont come and tell me "Hashirama is dead so he doesnt count" you said with fallacious statements as proof that "Only an Uchiha can defeat Itachi" I am demonstrating to you that no it doesnt and Hashirama would beat Itachi if they fought unless you think Itachi > EMS Madara. And RS would beat Itachi too, who is technically not an Uchiha but half Uchiha and still contradicts the title of the thread which is that only Sasuke and Madara can defeat Itachi, RS can defeat Itachi and he isnt any of them.




Kakashi Hatake said:


> So it makes sense that only Uchiha or a sharingan user can match Itachi's power.



No it doesnt, considering Hashirama wasnt an Uchiha and defeated EMS thus could defeat Itachi.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Thanks for your biased opinion. Now next time take your complaints to the mods instead of posting it on a thread and attempting to completely derail it.



Biased opinion?  I am not the one who is calling a character invincible, people like you is the reason I hate Itachi. Itachi fandom is the only one in the fucking manga who claim that his favourite character is invincible.


----------



## Skywalker (Apr 26, 2011)

Sasuke defeating Madara is pretty laughable.


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 26, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> This thread is golden proof that Itachi fans (minus strategos and some others) are complete asswipes.



HEY! I'm an Itachi fan! And I'm agruing _against_ the notion Itachi > All-who aint Uchiha ....but i guess i'm new here so yeah...lol


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 26, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> .................................................................................................................................................................................................................No offense, but you would still fall into the category Ace described.



Maybe If you ahve bothered to read my post you would have realized that is the idea I am arguing _*against*_ as in i don’t believe that, as in that’s not my position, as in You didn't read my post ~snip~


----------



## Puppetry (Apr 26, 2011)

Oops.


----------



## Archangel Michael (Apr 26, 2011)

God  why is this thread still open this thread had a troll? How the hell can only sasuke and madara be the only one that can beat itachi when pain could also.Then there people stronger then sasuke and madara .Also itachi isn't invincible


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 26, 2011)

lancebob said:


> God  why is this thread still open this thread had a troll? How the hell can only sasuke and madara the only one that can beat itachi when pain could also.Also itachi isn't invincible



U MAD dude. CHill and enjoy yourself


----------



## Archangel Michael (Apr 26, 2011)

ELT said:


> U MAD dude. CHill and enjoy yourself



I am not mad . I am


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 26, 2011)

lancebob said:


> I am not mad . I am



Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice


----------



## Canute87 (Apr 27, 2011)

It's a shame we'll never see the true Itachi. With all the shit he did a young age if he never got sick he probably would have been the strongest in the manga.


----------



## Neelon (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> *"An eye for an eye, to defeat an Uchiha, they needed the sharingan..." - Madara to Sasuke *
> 
> Based on this quote, only Kakashi, Sasuke and Madara can defeat Itachi.
> 
> ...



Minato and Pein still babyshake that itachi fodder


----------



## Naruko (Apr 27, 2011)

C'mon guys, you can do better than this - you think a thread topic (or post) is trolling, report it or PM one of us. Even if you think the premise is ridiculously unlikely, if someone put a lot of thought into it and backs up their reasoning (again, even if you find it unlikely), yes, it might be left for people to argue for/against....might. Might might might. But never resort to insulting each other because you disagree with a viewpoint. Namecalling, "quoting for truth" and so forth...you guys are better than that. Have fun, just be a little more civil or find another thread to post in.


----------



## butcher50 (Apr 27, 2011)

Naruko said:


> But never resort to insulting each other because you disagree with a viewpoint.



not possible.


----------



## tori22 (Apr 27, 2011)

Goddammit I honestly was thinking this thread was finally dead and now it's back up again and you guys have been arguing for like EIGHT FRICKIN PAGES IN ONE DAY! FACE IT ITACHI'S OVERRATED HE'S GOOD BUT HE'S NOT A GOD AND HIS FANBASE IS HONESTLY REALLY ANNOYING I'M SORRY I KNOW THIS POST IS FLAME BAIT BUT PLEASE GUYS THIS IS ARGUMENT IS NEVER GONNA GET RESOLVED THERE'S NO REAL ANSWER UNTIL WE SEE EDO ITACHI DO SH*T!


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

And you just brought it right back up.  

Who said Itachi was god. His just invincible when his in Susano mode. Since he has the weapons made by the gods.


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> And you just brought it right back up.
> 
> Who said Itachi was god. His just invincible when his in Susano mode. Since he has the weapons made by the gods.



That is until he runs otu of fuel and can't do Susano'o anymore. Then he's weaksauce


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

ELT said:


> That is until he runs otu of fuel and can't do Susano'o anymore. Then he's weaksauce



Yeah, obviously.  

But during Susano mode his invincible.


----------



## tori22 (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> And you just brought it right back up.
> 
> Who said Itachi was god. His just invincible when his in Susano mode. Since he has the weapons made by the gods.



Ugh dammit ur right I just did. Anyway did u forget that Susanoo KILLED itachi. Sasuke could barely move after using it for like what 10 minutes. He even said that every cell in his body hurt.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

tori22 said:


> Ugh dammit ur right I just did. Anyway did u forget that Susanoo KILLED itachi. Sasuke could barely move after using it for like what 10 minutes. He even said that every cell in his body hurt.



No, Itachi illness killed him. Susano only reduced his life line.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Yeah, obviously.
> 
> But during Susano mode his invincible.



Mizukage disagreas  she can meltit


----------



## tori22 (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> No, Itachi illness killed him. Susano only reduced his life line.



His "illness" was his _overuse_ of the mangekyo.

Edit: Just to follow through with what Zlatko said, it's not invincible. But I thought that it was because sasuke was low on chakra that it was weakening. BTW chojuro also knocked him through the wall, case you forgot that.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

zlatko said:


> Mizukage disagreas  she can meltit



Itachi's Susano has Yata Mirror. Which will counter Mei attack.


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Yeah, obviously.
> 
> But during Susano mode his invincible.



Unless you've got something that breaks through it or are fast enough to not get hit by it...or better yet, if you can off Itachi _before_ he goes Susano'o


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

ELT said:


> Unless you've got something that breaks through it or are fast enough to not get hit by it...or better yet, if you can off Itachi _before_ he goes Susano'o



Impossible.

Itachi is the only shinobi who can defeat a Kage/Sannin level shinobi within seconds.  

No one except Itachi has this feats.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Itachi's Susano has Yata Mirror. Which will counter Mei attack.



why are you so sure how do you now that it will counter it


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 27, 2011)

zlatko said:


> Mizukage disagreas  she can meltit



She only manage to melt the rip cage(which is the first phase of Susano).

Against the second stage THE ENTIRE SKELETON, her acid did nothing.


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Impossible.
> 
> Itachi is the only shinobi who can defeat a Kage/Sannin level shinobi within seconds.
> 
> No one except Itachi has this feats.



C'mon there's a bunch of ppl that could defeat Itachi _before_ he gets a chance to pull out Susano'o


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

ELT said:


> C'mon there's a bunch of ppl that could defeat Itachi _before_ he gets a chance to pull out Susano'o



Like who?

They have to pass through Itachi Shuriken, genjutsu, finger genjutsu, crow genjutsu, Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu and then the Susano comes.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 27, 2011)

ELT said:


> C'mon there's a bunch of ppl that *could defeat Itachi before he gets a chance to pull out Susano'o*



Considering Itachi could activate Susano in the time span of a lightning strike, I find that hard to believe. 

Susano is instantaneous in it's activation.


----------



## tori22 (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Itachi is the only shinobi who can defeat a Kage/Sannin level shinobi within seconds.



*Headdesk. Come on dude really or are you just kidding around that was the sh**iest exaggeration of Itachi I've ever seen


----------



## butcher50 (Apr 27, 2011)

zlatko said:


> Mizukage disagreas  she can meltit



different Susanoo version, by a different user.


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Like who?
> 
> They have to pass through Itachi Shuriken, genjutsu, finger genjutsu, crow genjutsu, Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu and then the Susano comes.



Take Pain for example. Who as leader of the Akatsuki adn Itachi's superior has knowledge of Itachi's techniques and can avoid them plus his wide variety of attack options are bound to overpower Itachi one way or another.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

tori22 said:


> *Headdesk. Come on dude really or are you just kidding around that was the sh**iest exaggeration of Itachi I've ever seen



Well its based on the manga. 

Itachi defeated Sasuke with Tsukiyomi. <-- Within Seconds.
Itachi defeated Kurenai with genjutsu. <-- Within Seconds.
Itachi defeated Kakashi with Tsukiyomi. <-- Within Seconds.
Itachi defeated Orochimaru with Genjutsu. <--Within seconds.


----------



## tori22 (Apr 27, 2011)

butcher50 said:


> different Susanoo version, by a different user.



same technique. You can't prove their different.


----------



## butcher50 (Apr 27, 2011)

tori22 said:


> same technique. You can't prove their different.



not exactly

while source-pool is the same of where this particular power technique is coming from, the variation and the user's development/advancement/modification of it are quite different.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

ELT said:


> Take Pain for example. Who as leader of the Akatsuki adn Itachi's superior has knowledge of Itachi's techniques and can avoid them plus his wide variety of attack options are bound to overpower Itachi one way or another.



Which Pain, there is 6 of them. 

How do you know he has knowledge on Itachi's technique.  

Just because his the leader doesn't mean he has full knowledge on Itachi techniques without witnessing it. Itachi kept everything to himself during the time he was in Akatsuki.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

tori22 said:


> same technique. You can't prove their different.



Sure we can, Sasuke Susano is incomplete while Itachi's susano is complete. Not to mention Itachi Susano has Yata Mirror and Totsuka Sword, something which Sasuke susano didn't have.  

Obvious its obvious.


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Considering Itachi could activate Susano in the time span of a lightning strike, I find that hard to believe.
> 
> Susano is instantaneous in it's activation.



Instantaneous? Maybe the initial activation that doesn't have neitehr of the "Godly weapons" but the whole thing? There's a process. And again Itachi doesn't "spam" Susano'o nor does he start with it off the bat. And again the technique is detrimental to both his vision and body.

Itachi whips out Susano?o, opponent waits for Itachi to run out of energy. It it?s Pain then the does ?mini-moon? technique and pull Itachi, Susano?o and all of the ground. GG


----------



## tori22 (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Well its based on the manga.
> 
> Itachi defeated Sasuke with Tsukiyomi. <-- Within Seconds.
> Itachi defeated Kurenai with genjutsu. <-- Within Seconds.
> ...




Dude seriously are ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE KAGE LEVEL? So Orochimaru is, but again as I said before you have to look into his eyes in order to fall under his genjutsu. None of the kage are stupid enough to do that.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

tori22 said:


> Anyway, dude seriously are ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE KAGE LEVEL? So Orochimaru is, but again as I said before you have to look into his eyes in order to fall under his genjutsu. None of the kage are stupid enough to do that.



Orochimaru and the manga disagrees.

Itachi can put someone into genjutsu just by pointing his fingers at them. So there is other ways Itachi can get them into genjutsu/Tsukiyomi.


----------



## Prince Vegeta (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Orochimaru and the manga disagrees.
> 
> Itachi can put someone into genjutsu just by pointing his fingers at them. So there is other ways Itachi can get them into genjutsu/Tsukiyomi.



ONLY if his opponent is looking at his finger/s


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 27, 2011)

ELT said:


> Take Pain for example. Who as leader of the Akatsuki adn Itachi's superior has knowledge of Itachi's techniques and can avoid them plus his wide variety of attack options are bound to overpower Itachi one way or another.



If Zetsu who's everywhere at anytime, didnt have knowledge on Itachi's techs (minus tsukuyomi) it's unlikely Pain did.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 27, 2011)

Let's apply the OP's non-logic to other statements.

Onoki said he's the only one who could beat Muu, thus Muu is stronger than Itachi, but Itachi is invincible, thus Itachi is stronger than Onoki.

This is ridiculous.  Obviously those statements aren't as absolute as they appear.  Itachi can be beaten by Madara, Mei, Onoki, A, Killer Bee, Sasuke, and Naruto.  Deal with it.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

Wakattebayo said:


> ONLY if his opponent is looking at his finger/s



And which opponent isn't going to look at his fingers if his pointing at them and having no knowledge on the genjutsu.


----------



## dungsi27 (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Like who?
> 
> They have to pass through Itachi Shuriken, genjutsu, finger genjutsu, crow genjutsu, Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu and then the Susano comes.



For example,
+Madara can just walk through Susanoo and then suck him in his dimension(or just simply run a kunai through his chest).
+Raikage can just run around Itachi,forcing him to keep Susanoo activate all the time till that shit kills him.
+Minato can shunsin to Itachi and teleport both Itachi along with his Susanoo to one of his hiraishin mark,and thats when the fun begins.
+Pein can use the same strategy as Danzo: Using a Chibaku Tensei to keep Susanoo restrained(this time a katon isnt gonna undo Chibaku Tensei)and then attack from any angle he likes.
+J-manoton:Yomi Numa,again its a jutsu that sucks things.
+Naruto:The two old frogs has some solid sound based attacks,and Susanoo doest protect you from sound.
+Kakashi:He can oneshot almost anyone(except Madara apparently)with Kamui.Susanoo isnt gonna stop that shit.
+Tenten:shes gonna lure Itachi by her sexiness and then stab the guy from behind.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

Forlong said:


> Let's apply the OP's non-logic to other statements.
> 
> Onoki said he's the only one who could beat Muu, thus Muu is stronger than Itachi, but Itachi is invincible, thus Itachi is stronger than Onoki.
> 
> This is ridiculous.  Obviously those statements aren't as absolute as they appear.  Itachi can be beaten by Madara, Mei, Onoki, A, Killer Bee, Sasuke, and Naruto.  Deal with it.



Provide Proof/scans. 

I'm sure when placed in context it means something completely different.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> For example,
> +Madara can just walk through Susanoo and then suck him in his dimension(or just simply run a kunai through his chest).
> +Raikage can just run around Itachi,forcing him to keep Susanoo activate all the time till that shit kills him.
> +Minato can shunsin to Itachi and teleport both Itachi along with his Susanoo to one of his hiraishin mark,and thats when the fun begins.
> ...



Fanfiction. 

Your just imagining/creating battles in your mind as if Itachi will stand still and let them rape him. 

I could do that, look..

-Itachi can kill Minato just by throwing shurikens at his head before he dodges it.


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> If Zetsu who's everywhere at anytime, didnt have knowledge on Itachi's techs (minus tsukuyomi) it's unlikely Pain did.



For battle purposes around here when you grant knowledge to a character they know the full extent fo the other's abilites. Of course I would also comment on how Deva Path's Tensei techniques could blow away Susano'o and that Genjutsu is useless if you don't catch all the Six Path's at once.
But then Nagato was in legue with Madara an eternal Mangekyo user, he could've gotten info from him, which i see as possible since Konan seem to know more about Madara's teachique than anyway so far in the manga and we all know Konan and Nagato where pretty close.


----------



## dungsi27 (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Fanfiction.
> 
> Your just imagining/creating battles in your mind as if Itachi will stand still and let them rape him.
> 
> ...



Then you can provide Itachis counter to what I said.

For example,

Itachi throw kunai?Ten ten can dodge kunai.

Or I can,

Fanfiction. 

Your just imagining/creating battles in your mind as if Tenten will stand still and let Itachi rape her.


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Fanfiction.
> 
> Your just imagining/creating battles in your mind as if Itachi will stand still and let them rape him.
> 
> ...



Itachi's Black Flame didn't do a thing to Madara...and with his intangibility it is apossibility for him to avoid Susano'o...oh and if Sasuke can break out of Itachi's best genjutsu then i don't se a reason why Madara can't either. Unless you are implying pre-Mangekyo Sauce > Madara... in which acse


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Orochimaru and the manga disagrees.
> 
> Itachi can put someone into genjutsu just by pointing his fingers at them. So there is other ways Itachi can get them into genjutsu/Tsukiyomi.



if you look at his ring not to point at his finger and ther is a way to break a  regular genjutsu not and stop making someone who isnt God a god


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> For example,
> +Madara can just walk through Susanoo and then suck him in his dimension(or just simply run a kunai through his chest).
> +Raikage can just run around Itachi,forcing him to keep Susanoo activate all the time till that shit kills him.
> +Minato can shunsin to Itachi and teleport both Itachi along with his Susanoo to one of his hiraishin mark,and thats when the fun begins.
> ...



-Yata Mirror will prevent Madara from walking through Susano.
-Proving Itachi is invincible, since Raikage can't defeat him when Susano is up.
-Yata Mirror will prevent Minato from teleporting.
-Itachi will defeat Pain before CT is utilized.
-Yata Mirror will counter it.
-Yata Mirror will protect susano from Sound.
-Yata Mirror will stop Kamui.
-Itachi will genjutsu rape her.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

ELT said:


> Itachi's Black Flame didn't do a thing to Madara...and with his intangibility it is apossibility for him to avoid Susano'o...oh and if Sasuke can break out of Itachi's best genjutsu then i don't se a reason why Madara can't either. Unless you are implying pre-Mangekyo Sauce > Madara... in which acse



Genjutsu=/=Tsukiyomi.

Madara had to go back to his hideout and get a new body when Itachi destroyed it with Amaterasu.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Susano canot be up all the time if someone with large amount of chakra is fighting who will run out of chakra first = itachi and plus you have one big whole in your theory Itachi doesnt have the stamina to hold the susano for long perid of time so there itachi is dead


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

zlatko said:


> if you look at his ring not to point at his finger and ther is a way to break a  regular genjutsu not and stop making someone who isnt God a god



I'm not making Itachi a god. Your claiming I am, so basically you are calling Itachi a god. 

Yeah, your right, there is a way to break a genjutsu. Like there is a way to dodge Kunai, there is a way to run left and run, there is a way to jump, there is a way to throw kunai. etc...But what does that got to do with anything.

Itachi can genjutsu someone and then immediately cast amaterasu on their face. Unless you can prove someone can break Itachi's genjutsu within seconds before Itachi can amaterasu their head.



zlatko said:


> Susano canot be up all the time if someone with large amount of chakra is fighting who will run out of chakra first = itachi and plus you have one big whole in your theory Itachi doesnt have the stamina to hold the susano for long perid of time so there itachi is dead



Your right, but what does this has to do with anything?

I am talking about Itachi susano being invincible. Not Itachi himself. Its only when his in susano mode his invincible since no one at this moment has shown the feats that puts him to Rikkoudou weapon level which belongs to Itachi susano.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> I'm not making Itachi a god. Your claiming I am, so basically you are calling Itachi a god.
> 
> Yeah, your right, there is a way to break a genjutsu. Like there is a way to dodge Kunai, there is a way to run left and run, there is a way to jump, there is a way to throw kunai. etc...But what does that got to do with anything.
> 
> Itachi can genjutsu someone and then immediately cast amaterasu on their face. Unless you can prove someone can break Itachi's genjutsu within seconds before Itachi can amaterasu their head.



pains bodys are resistant to genjutsu and as i said itachi doesnt have the stamina and streight to ceep the susano up so i say pain can kill him


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

zlatko said:


> pains bodys are resistant to genjutsu and as i said itachi doesnt have the stamina and streight to ceep the susano up so i say pain can kill him



I agree, Pain can kill Itachi when his susano isn't up.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

then make the thread itachi susano is invincible not itachi


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> I agree, Pain can kill Itachi when his susano isn't up.



how long will he ceep it up who do you rely think can whold his ground itachi with susano or pain ?


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

zlatko said:


> then make the thread itachi susano is invincible not itachi



When did this thread implied Itachi is invincible. This thread is about Itachi can only be defeated by Madara and Sasuke.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> When did this thread implied Itachi is invincible. This thread is about Itachi can only be defeated by Madara and Sasuke.



well we are telling you that he can be killed by other like pain and RS


----------



## Forlong (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Provide Proof/scans.
> 
> I'm sure when placed in context it means something completely different.


That's funny coming from you.  I asked you to do just that, and you haven't.  Allow me to show you how it's done:
http://www.leafninja.com/ranks.php


----------



## dungsi27 (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> -Yata Mirror will prevent Madara from walking through Susano.
> -Proving Itachi is invincible, since Raikage can't defeat him when Susano is up.
> -Yata Mirror will prevent Minato from teleporting.
> -Itachi will defeat Pain before CT is utilized.
> ...



-How?Madara didnt attack the mirror he just walked through it.
-Hmm so you admit that in a fight Raikage would beat Itachi right?
-How?Again Minato didnt attack anything he teleported.
-How?There are six of him.
-How?Again this shit doenst attack anything it sucks things into it.
-How?Yata mirror is not an ultimate defense and sound comes from everywhere around you.
-How?TEchs like Kamui ignore the shield and collapse the space BEHIND the shield.
-How?I mean oh yeah Itachi is impotent he cant do a real rape.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

Forlong said:


> That's funny coming from you.  I asked you to do just that, and you haven't.  Allow me to show you how it's done:
> http://www.leafninja.com/ranks.php



Tsunade said Onoki is the only one who can stop him. 

Stop him =/= Defeat him.

There is a difference.


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> -Yata Mirror will prevent Madara from walking through Susano.
> -Proving Itachi is invincible, since Raikage can't defeat him when Susano is up.
> -Yata Mirror will prevent Minato from teleporting.
> -Itachi will defeat Pain before CT is utilized.
> ...



1) Madara goes throught he floor and appeard under Itachi GG
2) Itachi's stamina will decrease while Raikage?s running around him and it?s doubtful Itachi will be tagging Raikage since Susano?o doesn?t have feats against moving targets that can compare to Raikage?s speed. Once Itachi?s out of juice bye bye.
3) How can the Mirror protect him from teleporting? Is not like the teleportation send Minato in a straight line to him, his mass move literally through space instantaneousl. There is no contact with the Yata Miro whatsoever so it doesn?t work.
4)So how does Itachi defeats Pain before he can do CT? And if Susano?o is made of Itachi?s chakra can?t the Chakra Sucking Pain just nullify the thing?
5) Yata Mirror only ahs feats protecting against physical attacks, there never has been any indications if can?t protect against sound waves.
6) How does chakra mirros stop kumui? Again is time displacement teachnique that doesn?t _have_ to move through Susano?o, Kumi can literally appear inside of it.
7) TenTen is immune to Genjutsu because it has never been shown that she?s been affected by it.EVER. TenTen casually stomps on Itachi and then goes off to solo the whole Akatsuki.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

zlatko said:


> well we are telling you that he can be killed by other like pain and RS



Yeah I know, but when his susano is up no one can defeat him except the Uchiha. 

RS has Uchiha blood, so he counts as Uchiha.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Tsunade said Onoki is the only one who can stop him.
> 
> Stop him =/= Defeat him.
> 
> There is a difference.



how is turning him in to dust not killing him ?


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Yeah I know, but when his susano is up no one can defeat him except the Uchiha.
> 
> RS has Uchiha blood, so he counts as Uchiha.



yes he is powerfull with susano but the susano wont stay up for long time and you named your thread "Only Madara and Sasuke can defeat Itachi." wich implies that itachi other by madara and sasuke canot be killed by anyone no mather if he is in susano mode or not so you see your mistake


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

zlatko said:


> how is turning him in to dust not killing him ?



Dunno, maybe the allmight sharingan can somehow grant a free wish to come back to life?


----------



## Jak N Blak (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> And you just brought it right back up.
> 
> Who said Itachi was god. His just invincible when his in Susano mode. Since he has the weapons made by the gods.



I'm requote myself to this guy...

"OP is making people face Itachi in situations that suit Itachi best e.g them being in range of Totsuka's sword or Itachi is starting out with Susanoo activated or their in range of his eyesight...so I shall do the same."

1. Kabuto sending every last one of his Edo summons to fight him = Kabuto wins.
2. Kakashi can Kamui Itachi to another dimension if Itachi is not aware of his pressence.
3. Raikage has shown the capabilities to avoid amaterasu of all things. Susanoo does not last forever. As soon as Susanoo is deactivated Raikage will Lariat his head off.
4. Oonoki was capable of trapping a sharingan user in his cube before they can react. Itachi will die.
5. Gaara can defeat him depending on the location and distance. If they start out close range and around frikin water then Itachi can win. But if they start out with Gaara in the sky and around desert-level sand, Itachi will lose since Gaara's sand can already defend against Amaterasu...Itachi's only long range attack that has a shot of getting through Gaara's defense from long-range. Itachi will get buried under 10-tons of sand since he's a ground fighter. I dont see him getting out of his quicksand either.

NOW BEING ADDED - People that can defeat him if they were alive:
1. Kisame around a large body of water with or without Samehada in hand. If Samehada is in hand, it will be a rape. 
2. Pain, the smart people in here have elaborated enough as to why.
3. Danzo - it could go either way.
4. Orochimaru - both times Itachi defeated the guy he used abilities Orochimaru wasnt aware of. It wont be simple this time.
5. Hidan - Itachi dares to cough up blood around me? . Die! 

These are the people that are alive that can defeat him. Try to counter, it will be humorous to read. Matter of fact...the point this thread is trying to make is plain stupid. EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER EVER SHOWN IN NARUTO CAN KILL ITACHI. It just depends on the *SITUATION* their are in(e.g Ramen guy feeds him poisened food). And look at your statement right here,*"His just invincible when his in Susano mode."* Then why the flying fuck did you make this thread saying only Sasuke and Madara can defeat him? Theres a ton of people that can defeat him when he's NOT in Susanoo(as I've presented) and another bunch that can defeat him regardless.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> -How?Madara didnt attack the mirror he just walked through it.
> -Hmm so you admit that in a fight Raikage would beat Itachi right?
> -How?Again Minato didnt attack anything he teleported.
> -How?There are six of him.
> ...



-Yata Mirror stops chakra.
-Teleport requires chakra.
-What do you think Totsuka Sword will be doing.
-It requires chakra, Yata Mirror can negate it.
-According to the manga, Yata Mirror is the ultimate defense. Yata Mirror can expand. The sound will lose all of its chakra and it will simply be a normal sound and nothing else.
-Kamui requires chakra.
-Genjutsu.


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Yeah I know, but when his susano is up no one can defeat him except the Uchiha.
> 
> RS has Uchiha blood, so he counts as Uchiha.



Actually the Uchiha have RS blood, so the Uchiha are decendants of RS, not the other way around.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

ELT said:


> 1) Madara goes throught he floor and appeard under Itachi GG
> 2) Itachi's stamina will decrease while Raikage?s running around him and it?s doubtful Itachi will be tagging Raikage since Susano?o doesn?t have feats against moving targets that can compare to Raikage?s speed. Once Itachi?s out of juice bye bye.
> 3) How can the Mirror protect him from teleporting? Is not like the teleportation send Minato in a straight line to him, his mass move literally through space instantaneousl. There is no contact with the Yata Miro whatsoever so it doesn?t work.
> 4)So how does Itachi defeats Pain before he can do CT? And if Susano?o is made of Itachi?s chakra can?t the Chakra Sucking Pain just nullify the thing?
> ...



FanFiction.  

Lets stick to the manga.


----------



## Forlong (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Tsunade said Onoki is the only one who can stop him.
> 
> Stop him =/= Defeat him.
> 
> There is a difference.



And technically "destroy" doesn't mean "kill". 

The meaning behind both phrases is the same.  You stop a shinobi attacking people by defeating him in combat.  Tsunade is implying that Muu is unstoppable and only one who trained under him has a chance at beating him.  Despite the use of absolutes, I assume that they aren't absolute.  Besides, if you want to get real technical, Itachi can't be invisible, because he frickin' died.  Itachi, Nagato, and Muu were all said to be unstoppable, however they are all kind of dead now.  So they all could be stopped.  The only thing that makes Itachi different is that he _let_ himself be killed because he was a noble spirit.  That doesn't mean that he was truly unstoppable.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

zlatko said:


> how is turning him in to dust not killing him ?



Yata Mirror



zlatko said:


> yes he is powerfull with susano but the susano wont stay up for long time and you named your thread "Only Madara and Sasuke can defeat Itachi." wich implies that itachi other by madara and sasuke canot be killed by anyone no mather if he is in susano mode or not so you see your mistake



Only Madara and Sasuke can defeat Itachi right now.
Onoki and Raikage and others will die against genjutsu or Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu. Itachi doesn't need susano. Since Onoki and Raikage does not have counter to genjutsu. Therefore Itachi can end them in a flash just by getting eye contact.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Apr 27, 2011)

Naruko said:


> C'mon guys, you can do better than this - you think a thread topic (or post) is trolling, report it or PM one of us. Even if you think the premise is ridiculously unlikely, if someone put a lot of thought into it and backs up their reasoning (again, even if you find it unlikely), yes, it might be left for people to argue for/against....might. Might might might. But never resort to insulting each other because you disagree with a viewpoint. Namecalling, "quoting for truth" and so forth...you guys are better than that. Have fun, just be a little more civil or find another thread to post in.


Quoted for truth.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> FanFiction.
> 
> Lets stick to the *manga*.


Jiraiya >= Itachi + Kisame + other Akatsuki.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> FanFiction.
> 
> Lets stick to the manga.



actualy is not a fanfiction raikage has chakra eqoual to tailed beast while itachi has wery little below normal so it is posibble


----------



## Jak N Blak (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm getting brain damage


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Yata Mirror
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well answer me How WIll He kill Pian becous evry time someone aske you you diflect


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

zlatko said:


> actualy is not a fanfiction raikage has chakra eqoual to tailed beast while itachi has wery little below normal so it is posibble



True, but whats the point of this? 

Itachi can defeat Raikage withou Susano. 

Raikage has no counter to Tsukiyomi.


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> FanFiction.
> 
> Lets stick to the manga.



Well then why don't you use the manga to show why my answers as to why and how those situations are false?  Come at me, refute my point with actual manga evidence, show me scans that proves me wrong. Don?t tell me it?s fancficiton if you have not other way to prove it other than you say it is, I don?t take your word as face value. Show me manga evidence of Yata Mirror blocking a technique with time/space displacement properties or concede.


----------



## dungsi27 (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> -Yata Mirror stops chakra.
> -Teleport requires chakra.
> -What do you think Totsuka Sword will be doing.
> -It requires chakra, Yata Mirror can negate it.
> ...



-So?While MAdara was on the walk his chakra dissapeared,according to Fuu.
-Yata mirror stops chakra to get through it,teleporting tech does not push chakra through the mirror.
-Doing what?Against mortal opponents totsuka is just like any other super sized swords.
-Negate what?Again the tech does not try to push anything(including chakra)through the mirror.
-Nope it isnt.Ultimate defense are those which can protect you from any direction.Now if you can find me a manga page where we see the mirror protecting Itachi from every direction I would rest my case.
-Normal sound can hurt,and can kill.They torture people with sound in real life.
-Again the chakra doesnt travel through the mirror.
-Lol ok this is just for fun ignore it.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> True, but whats the point of this?
> 
> Itachi can defeat Raikage withou Susano.
> 
> Raikage has no counter to Tsukiyomi.



if he runs faster then light how wil lhe cas amaterasu or tsukuyomi ?????
and about onok he can trape him in the cube befor itachi reacts just like he did with sasuke


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

zlatko said:


> well answer me How WIll He kill Pian becous evry time someone aske you you diflect



Totsuka Sword, Susano and Amaterasu.


----------



## dungsi27 (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> True, but whats the point of this?
> 
> Itachi can defeat Raikage withou Susano.
> 
> Raikage has no counter to Tsukiyomi.



to do that he first needs to look into the guys eyes.

and to look into the guys eyes first he needs to look into the guys face.

and to look into the guys face first he needs to find out where the f*** the guy is.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

ELT said:


> Well then why don't you use the manga to show why my answers as to why and how those situations are false?  Come at me, refute my point with actual manga evidence, show me scans that proves me wrong. Don?t tell me it?s fancficiton if you have not other way to prove it other than you say it is, I don?t take your word as face value. Show me manga evidence of Yata Mirror blocking a technique with time/space displacement properties or concede.



evry time someone asked him somthing he just says 
yata miror , totsuka sword like he is under a genjutsu


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Totsuka Sword, Susano and Amaterasu.



you do now that totsuka sword and susano arent staying forewer itachi can only ceep tthem up for 20 min only and they are 6 pains with rinegan and evry nature element they can put itachi in a genjutsu


----------



## Closet Pervert (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> True, but whats the point of this?
> 
> Itachi can defeat Raikage withou Susano.
> 
> Raikage has no counter to Tsukiyomi.


Raikage's synapses fire too fast for Genjutsu to work. Sasuke didn't even try Genjutsu. He didn't try Tsukiyomi.

Besides... you don't fucking know that. But that kind of summarizes ruins the whole topic.


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Totsuka Sword, Susano and Amaterasu.



Totsuke Sword = never cut down anything that was not A) Giant Target B) Stationary Target. Pain dodges.

Susano'o = It's made of chakra, the Chakra Sucking Path could arguably nullify it, or Pein just uses Mini-Moon Tensei to pull Itachi Susano'o an all into the air

Black Flames = A simple Omnidirectional Tensei blows them away


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

ELT said:


> Well then why don't you use the manga to show why my answers as to why and how those situations are false?  Come at me, refute my point with actual manga evidence, show me scans that proves me wrong. Don?t tell me it?s fancficiton if you have not other way to prove it other than you say it is, I don?t take your word as face value. Show me manga evidence of Yata Mirror blocking a technique with time/space displacement properties or concede.



Sure, then Zetsu stated Itachi is invincible in susano mode. Proven when Itachi blocked all attacks.

Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror is the gods creation after all.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Sure, then Zetsu stated Itachi is invincible in susano mode. Proven when Itachi blocked all attacks.
> 
> Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror is the gods creation after all.



Ok statment by people arent trueeeeeee as i said with prof befor so dont belive evrybody are saying in the manga


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> to do that he first needs to look into the guys eyes.
> 
> and to look into the guys eyes first he needs to look into the guys face.
> 
> and to look into the guys face first he needs to find out where the f*** the guy is.



Yeah, whats your point. Without knowledge, there is no reason why kage level shinobi won't look into Itachi's eyes or fingers.

Kakashi had knowledge on Tsukiyomi yet Itachi was able to get Kakashi to look into his eyes.



zlatko said:


> evry time someone asked him somthing he just says
> yata miror , totsuka sword like he is under a genjutsu



That actually made me laugh.  



zlatko said:


> you do now that totsuka sword and susano arent staying forewer itachi can only ceep tthem up for 20 min only and they are 6 pains with rinegan and evry nature element they can put itachi in a genjutsu



Yeah so, whats your point.


----------



## zlatko (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Yeah so, whats your point.



my point is that all the pain have to do is stay on ofence for 20 min or 30 and than crush itach but there is no reason as ELT stated how they can protect from them


----------



## dungsi27 (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Yeah, whats your point. Without knowledge, there is no reason why kage level shinobi won't look into Itachi's eyes or fingers.
> 
> Kakashi had knowledge on Tsukiyomi yet Itachi was able to get Kakashi to look into his eyes.
> 
> ...



Raikage had knowledge.

Actually Itachi didnt get Kakashi to look into his eyes Kakashi did it willingly.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 27, 2011)

Rikudo Naruto would rape his ass.


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Sure, then Zetsu stated Itachi is invincible in susano mode. Proven when Itachi blocked all attacks.
> 
> Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror is the gods creation after all.



Zetsu also said Black Flames burn as hot as the sun. Taking character statements as face value without considering the actual feats of the technique is laughable at best. You still have not shown me evidence that the Yata Mirror can nullify techniques with time/space displacement properties, you are yet to show me how the Yata Mirror performs when facing techniques of non-physical properties, you are yet to show me how does Susano’o and Itachi manage to stay grounded when Pain does Mini-Moon Tensei. You are yet to show me evidence of how Susano’o (a big ass armor thing made of chakra) performs against the Chakra Sucking Pain.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

zlatko said:


> my point is that all the pain have to do is stay on ofence for 20 min or 30 and than crush itach but there is no reason as ELT stated how they can protect from them



Your right, but pain won't last long against Susano. The battle will finish in 5 minutes. Then Itachi can deactivate Susano.



dungsi27 said:


> Raikage had knowledge.
> 
> Actually Itachi didnt get Kakashi to look into his eyes Kakashi did it willingly.



Lol, Kakashi did not do it willingly. Why would he want to get himself killed.



ELT said:


> Zetsu also said Black Flames burn as hot as the sun. Taking character statements as face value without considering the actual feats of the technique is laughable at best. You still have not shown me evidence that the Yata Mirror can nullify techniques with time/space displacement properties, you are yet to show me how the Yata Mirror performs when facing techniques of non-physical properties, you are yet to show me how does Susano’o and Itachi manage to stay grounded when Pain does Mini-Moon Tensei. You are yet to show me evidence of how Susano’o (a big ass armor thing made of chakra) performs against the Chakra Sucking Pain.



Proof/evidence. Databook stated Amaterasu being hot as the sun not Zetsu.

Yata Mirror stops chakra. Its just that simple. Proven in the manga.


----------



## dungsi27 (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Lol, Kakashi did not do it willingly. Why would he want to get himself killed.



Read the manga again Kakashi overrestimated his own sharingan and thought that he could withstand Itachis genjutsu.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> Read the manga again Kakashi overrestimated his own sharingan and thought that he could withstand Itachis genjutsu.



I did and there is nothing that suggests that.


----------



## dungsi27 (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> I did and there is nothing that suggests that.



Nothing except Kakashis own words.


----------



## Csdabest (Apr 27, 2011)

Hmmm. well its not can. its could. Itachi is dead now. And judging by his record. of wins. The only person t ever defeat or own Itachi was an Uchiha.

Statement is damn near true


----------



## Jak N Blak (Apr 27, 2011)

K.A.B.U.T.O
C.A.N
D.E.F.E.A.T
H.I.M


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Proof/evidence. Databook stated Amaterasu being hot as the sun not Zetsu.
> 
> Yata Mirror stops chakra. Its just that simple. Proven in the manga.



Data book is secondary canon. Secondary canon is dismissed as not proof if it states something that is contradictory to the primary canon (aka the manga). In the manga we see how the Black Flames missed Sasuke and hit trees, these trees however are not disintegrated on contact, as you would expect from something that has the same burning capacity as the sun. Therefore secondary canon is contradictory with primary canon therefore it is not accepted as fact since it doesn?t match on-panel feats. It was also stated (on the same databook I believe) that the Black Flames burn forever until stopped by the original caster, now we know that shit is false since it only burn of a week. Then you have the same Black Flames (the ones that supposedly burn as hot as the Sun) not only failing to destroy a forest but been quenched by rain?you see the inconsistencies here? And then failing to severely burn Karin of all people later on.

Now then, you say Zetsu statement that Itachi is invincible while on Susano?o, I say that?s major BS because compared to the feats shown by later characters, it is very possible for him to be defeated by other people that are not those two you mentioned. While he not in Susano?o he?s defeated even easier and by more people. Then there?s the fact that you chose to throw at me character statements and contradictory databook info when I ask for feats or evidence that disproves what I?ve said. If you cannot then concede, if you don?t concede after failing to show the evidence and prove me wrong through on-panel proof then I?ll have to be force to assume you are a troll and biased Itachi fanboy that cannot accept that Itachi (as cool as he is) is not the streongest character in the series nor is he inpossible to defeat.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Apr 27, 2011)

Flame Suit on.....

People who can defeat Itachi:
1) Madara
2) Nagato
3) Minato
4) Kabuto 
5) Hashirama
6) Sasuke/Naruto - Should be able to with recent powerups


People who have the possibility:
1) Jiraiya 
2) Raikage 
3) Bee - Still on the border on this one
4) Sasori - Fighting style, genjutsu immunity(??), will force itachi to use Susanno
5) Kakuzu - Fighting style, genjutsu immunity(??), will force itachi to use Susanno
6) Danzo - Still on the border with this one
7) Nidaime - By hype of course
8) Izuna - By hype of course


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

I feel the need to flame a bit...


Three Hundred Spartans beat Itachi


----------



## butcher50 (Apr 27, 2011)

ELT said:


> Amaterasu been quenched by normal rain



prove it "ELT".

Amaterasu's spread was stopped by Yamato, via displacing and isolating the earth pieces on which amaterasu was ignited upon.

the entire point of Amaterasu is that it can be neutralized only through extraordinary means or by it's own users (or once the 7 days period is up)

granted the destructive power potential of Amaterasu's always wildly varied via all sorts of affecting factors (whatever it's focused, unfocused, short-distance, long-distance, how much Chakra amount was poured into it, used by itachi or used by sasuke...etc.)

but making the flames to disappear always required something unusual.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 27, 2011)

ELT said:


> Data book is secondary canon. Secondary canon is dismissed as not proof if it states something that is contradictory to the primary canon (aka the manga). In the manga we see how the Black Flames missed Sasuke and hit trees, these trees however are not disintegrated on contact, as you would expect from something that has the same burning capacity as the sun. Therefore secondary canon is contradictory with primary canon therefore it is not accepted as fact since it doesn?t match on-panel feats. It was also stated (on the same databook I believe) that the Black Flames burn forever until stopped by the original caster, now we know that shit is false since it only burn of a week. Then you have the same Black Flames (the ones that supposedly burn as hot as the Sun) not only failing to destroy a forest but been quenched by rain?you see the inconsistencies here? And then failing to severely burn Karin of all people later on.
> 
> Now then, you say Zetsu statement that Itachi is invincible while on Susano?o, I say that?s major BS because compared to the feats shown by later characters, it is very possible for him to be defeated by other people that are not those two you mentioned. While he not in Susano?o he?s defeated even easier and by more people. Then there?s the fact that you chose to throw at me character statements and contradictory databook info when I ask for feats or evidence that disproves what I?ve said. If you cannot then concede, if you don?t concede after failing to show the evidence and prove me wrong through on-panel proof then I?ll have to be force to assume you are a troll and biased Itachi fanboy that cannot accept that Itachi (as cool as he is) is not the streongest character in the series nor is he inpossible to defeat.



-Itachi is not strongest character in the manga. Thats Madara.
-Itachi is not impossible to defeat, because Madara and Sasuke can defeat him now.
-I never used databook, you did when you said Amaterasu is hot as the sun. That statement was from the databook. But you said it was from Zetsu. When in fact it wasn't.
-You concede, Yata Mirror has shown to block Kirin, Exploding Tags, attacks from 8 giant snakes head as well as expand. While doing so, Yata Mirror received 0 damage. 

-Your just disagreeing with the manga. You can do that in the complaint thread.


----------



## butcher50 (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> -Itachi is not strongest character in the manga. Thats Madara.



with the Rinnegan up-grade on ? (including Gedo-Mazo statue summon backing-him-up)




Kakashi Hatake said:


> -Itachi is not impossible to defeat, because Madara and Sasuke can defeat him now.



including other elite (non-uchiha) fighters of comparable caliber, under more favorable circumstances.




Kakashi Hatake said:


> -I never used databook, you did when you said Amaterasu is hot as the sun. That statement was from the databook. But you said it was from Zetsu. When in fact it wasn't.



verbal hype alone was always a pain in the ass.

be it inside the manga or databooks which followed later.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> -You concede, Yata Mirror has shown to block Kirin, Exploding Tags, attacks from 8 giant snakes head as well as expand. While doing so, Yata Mirror received 0 damage.



fact.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> -Your just disagreeing with the manga. You can do that in the complaint thread.



haters gonna hate KH


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> -Itachi is not strongest character in the manga. Thats Madara.
> *-Itachi is not impossible to defeat, because Madara and Sasuke can defeat him now*.


Them and a handfull of others also 



> -I never used databook, you did when you said Amaterasu is hot as the sun. That statement was from the databook. But you said it was from Zetsu. When in fact it wasn't.


 You said Databook burns as hot as the sun and you said Zetsu stated the Itachi in Susano'o in unbeatable. The similarities of the statements holds since on both cases something was stated and there is no evidence that proves the statements true which is why the comparison comes to play. And in fact tehre is contradictory evidence that proves the statements wrong on each case



> -You concede, Yata Mirror has shown to block Kirin, Exploding Tags, attacks from 8 giant snakes head as well as expand. While doing so, Yata Mirror received 0 damage.



You know what all those attacks have in common? Thay are *all* physical attacks. Each and every one of them. None of those attacks have any sort of time/space displacement properties and al of them attempted to go through the shield to get to Itachi. A time/space displacement techniques (thunder god, the madara thing, Kumui) does not need to do that. Also neither of those attacks had Chakra Sucking capabilities (Chakra sucking Pain) and Susano’o is nothing but a big ass amrod made of chakra; you tell me, how does it fare?


> -Your just disagreeing with the manga. You can do that in the complaint thread.



You are disregarding Susano’o lack of feats against the attacks mentioned and that in the OP you did not specify that Itachi cannot be beaten while he is in Susano’o (which he can, but by less people). In which case it doesn’t matter because the point the OP bring is that in a fight, Itachi cannot lose unless he’s fighting against Madara or Sasuke, not that only Madara or Sasuke are the only ones able to beat him while he’s using Susano’o. The fighters the other posters have sated can beat him, some of them are not able to while he’s got Susano’o active sure, but Susano’o doesn’t last forever and once its gone he’d be taking the smack by quite a handful of people.


----------



## tori22 (Apr 27, 2011)

Goddammit Im gone for like 2 hours and this thread goes thru like 5 pages. I cant reply to the people who replied to me now cuz it'd be irrelevant so Im just gonna wait until I see a chance or if someone would explain to me what happened the last 5 pages........


----------



## PinkiePool (Apr 27, 2011)

tori22 said:


> Goddammit Im gone for like 2 hours and this thread goes thru like 5 pages. I cant reply to the people who replied to me now cuz it'd be irrelevant so Im just gonna wait until I see a chance or if someone would explain to me what happened the last 5 pages........



Let it die c'mon. You know they have no argument so just let it go.


----------



## tori22 (Apr 27, 2011)

ELT said:


> Let it die c'mon. You know they have no argument so just let it go.



goddammit that's the second time ive done that with this thread....


----------



## Ezekial (Apr 27, 2011)

Everyones off topic, On topic I still Bee can handle Sasuke


----------



## JiraiyaTheGallant (Apr 27, 2011)

How has this not been closed yet?


----------



## Eternal Pein (Apr 27, 2011)

Because people won't let it die


----------



## Orochibuto (Apr 27, 2011)

Naruko said:


> C'mon guys, you can do better than this - you think a thread topic (or post) is trolling, report it or PM one of us. Even if you think the premise is ridiculously unlikely, if someone put a lot of thought into it and backs up their reasoning (again, even if you find it unlikely), yes, it might be left for people to argue for/against....might. Might might might. But never resort to insulting each other because you disagree with a viewpoint. Namecalling, "quoting for truth" and so forth...you guys are better than that. Have fun, just be a little more civil or find another thread to post in.



Fine, so then mod can I create a thread based only on fallacious statements and evidence proven wrong, bending it in such a way that I can make a thread claiming Hyuuga Hinata can solo the Uchiha clan with Itachi, EMS Sasuke and Madara included and you promise me you wont close the thread or ban me? Despite how obvious it is?

Because this is basically what the thread is, claiming that Hyuuga Hinata can defeat the entire Uchiha clan is no different that claiming that Itachi could defeat superman and that it is literally invincible. Can I do it mod? Afterall if you dont have a problem when threads like that are done pro-Uchiha you shouldnt have a problem when it is anti-Uchiha right? Will you allow said thread to surpass the 20 pages like you have done on this one?


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## BrickStyle (Apr 28, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Fine, so then mod can I create a thread based only on fallacious statements and evidence proven wrong, bending it in such a way that I can make a thread claiming Hyuuga Hinata can solo the Uchiha clan with Itachi, EMS Sasuke and Madara included and you promise me you wont close the thread or ban me? Despite how obvious it is?
> 
> Because this is basically what the thread is, claiming that Hyuuga Hinata can defeat the entire Uchiha clan is no different that claiming that Itachi could defeat superman and that it is literally invincible. Can I do it mod? Afterall if you dont have a problem when threads like that are done pro-Uchiha you shouldnt have a problem when it is anti-Uchiha right? Will you allow said thread to surpass the 20 pages like you have done on this one?



This guy has a point, mod. This thread is based on fallacious statements and the only thing that the other commenter's are trying to do, is to point it's fallacy in claiming something as a fact by pure hype. The other commenter's aren't wrong here, but the thread itself is a pure troll, therefore I don't think the commenter's are to be blamed. They can ignore the thread, but if they ignore it, then there is a chance that the OP will make another thread like this, which will eventually annoy people on this forum.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

Only Madara and Sasuke can make eye contact with Itachi and survive. Now is there anybody skilled enough to fight Itachi while avoiding eye contact? Maybe, but none of them are alive.


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## dungsi27 (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Only Madara and Sasuke can make eye contact with Itachi and survive. Now is there anybody skilled enough to fight Itachi while avoiding eye contact? Maybe, but none of them are alive.



How about Rikoudu Naruto,Raikage and Kabutomaru?


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## Jak N Blak (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Only Madara and Sasuke can make eye contact with Itachi and survive. Now is there anybody skilled enough to fight Itachi while avoiding eye contact? Maybe, but none of them are alive.



Kakashi survived. Your statement has been crushed.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> How about Rikoudu Naruto,Raikage and Kabutomaru?



All of them would die.



jaknblak said:


> Kakashi survived. Your statement has been crushed.



Kakashi survived but he questioned why Itachi didn't kill him. This in itself would suggest that Itachi can choose to kill or not to kill with TS and he chose not to kill Kakashi for obvious reasons.


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## Jak N Blak (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> All of them would die.
> 
> 
> 
> Kakashi survived but he questioned why Itachi didn't kill him. This in itself would suggest that Itachi can choose to kill or not to kill with TS and he chose not to kill Kakashi for obvious reasons.



Tsukuyomi last for 1 second in the real world. There are people in the manga right now with extreme stamina to endure 72 hours of "poking". Sage Naruto for example. His body will be activated during the whole process. He'll laugh during the process.

Anyway, Still Kakashi survived...theres nothing to argue about.


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## dungsi27 (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> All of them would die.



Kabuto had an Itachi himself

And the rest(including Kabuto)can avoid eye-contact fairly easily.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Tsukuyomi last for 1 second in the real world. There are people in the manga right now with extreme stamina to endure 72 hours of "poking". Sage Naruto for example. His body will be activated during the whole process. He'll laugh during the process.
> 
> Anyway, Still Kakashi survived...theres nothing to argue about.



Kakashi survived because Itachi didn't want to kill him. That's also why an 8 year old Sasuke survived. 

And the technique doesn't last a second. It is instant, in Tsukiyomi Itachi creates a world where he is god, he controls time and space in TS. He can create a world where you live happily, get married, have kids, and than have your wife and kids torture you for a decade.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle Bee would survive. Hell he'd even dispel the thing by merit of Hachibi interference. Then you've got Pain, unless you use can cast Genjustsu on all six _at the same time_ Genjutsu is useless, and going by Pain's fighting style and added that he knows Itachi's a Genjutsu-centric ninja I doubt he'd make all six do eye contact. Everyone and their mom with knowledge on Sharingan-based Genjutsu knows better than to make eye contact. And you can looks at your opponent without making direct eye contact too, keep an eye on his hands for example, or his eyebrows, his nose, chest, the friggin head band. Lost of options.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> AKmyWaffle Bee would survive. Hell he'd even dispel the thing by merit of Hachibi interference. Then you've got Pain, unless you use can cast Genjustsu on all six _at the same time_ Genjutsu is useless, and going by Pain's fighting style and added that he knows Itachi's a Genjutsu-centric ninja I doubt he'd make all six do eye contact. Everyone and their mom with knowledge on Sharingan-based Genjutsu knows better than to make eye contact. And you can looks at your opponent without making direct eye contact too, keep an eye on his hands for example, or his eyebrows, his nose, chest, the friggin head band. Lost of options.



No, it doesn't work that way. As Kakashi stated, because TS occurs so fast there is no time for a partner to break the genjutsu. 

Pain is just a collection of puppets which happen to be linked to Nagato. And through this link Nagato receives all the visual data the bodies see. Thus if a single body was to be attacked by TS so would Nagato. And once Nagato is dead Pain would seize to function.


And it is evident now that direct eye contact is not required for Sharingan genjutsu to work. As shown by Kakashi using sharingan genjutsu to knock out two ROOT members.


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## dungsi27 (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> And it is evident now that direct eye contact is not required for Sharingan genjutsu to work. As shown by Kakashi using sharingan genjutsu to knock out two ROOT members.



That was direct eye contact actually.Kakashi suddenly appeared and surprised the guys.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> That was direct eye contact actually.Kakashi suddenly appeared and surprised the guys.



You can't make direct eye contact with two people if you only have one eye.


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## dungsi27 (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> You can't make direct eye contact with two people if you only have one eye.



Yeah you cant look into their eyes but they can look into your eye.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

dungsi27 said:


> Yeah you cant look into their eyes but they can look into your eye.



Which means there is no eye contact.


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## ZE (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, it doesn't work that way. As Kakashi stated, because TS occurs so fast there is no time for a partner to break the genjutsu.
> 
> Pain is just a collection of puppets which happen to be linked to Nagato. And through this link Nagato receives all the visual data the bodies see. Thus if a single body was to be attacked by TS so would Nagato. And once Nagato is dead Pain would seize to function.
> 
> ...



Just like the frog song affected Nagato and not the three bodies who appeared in the genjutsu world, right? Oh wait, Nagato was nowhere to be seen...

Tsukuyomi affecting Nagato directly is an unlikely speculation because it would go against the info we have on tsukyomi and how a genjutsu works. You can?t put someone in a genjutsu without knowing of his existence because genjutsu works by taking control of someone?s chakra. The frog song took control of Pain?s chakra, not Nagato?s... because Pa and Ma had no idea there was someone controlling the Pains... meaning, they put the Pains in genjutsu, not Nagato and as we know, all Pains share earing (just like sight), so the way the frog song affected the Pains wouldn't be different from how tsukuyomi would work.  

And if you're going to enter the realm of speculation, then you could even speculate Nagato can break free from Tsukuyomi because, as a Rikudou, his uchiha powers are at its maximum.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, it doesn't work that way. As Kakashi stated, because TS occurs so fast there is no time for a partner to break the genjutsu.



Hachibi is literally inside of Bee, he knows the exact instant Bee is affected by a genjutsu and will auto-dispel is. Hachibi dispelling a genjutsu is way faster than a partner form _outside_ the consciousness of the _receiving end_ of the Genjutsu; it stands to reason that Hachibi be faster than Kakashi or Azon/Kurenai detecting and acting on a Genjutsu casted from Itachi. Which gives me reason to eblive TS wouldn’t work on Bee, or wouldn’t work effectively.



> Pain is just a collection of puppets which happen to be linked to Nagato. And through this link Nagato receives all the visual data the bodies see. Thus if a single body was to be attacked by TS so would Nagato. And once Nagato is dead Pain would seize to function.



But Nagato is also receiving visual info form the _other_ puppets that are not being affected by TS, five of them to be precise, which overpower the effect of the illusion with five different views of the reality. As I said, you need to get all six of them for Genjutsu to effectively affect Nagato himself. Recall also that the puppets _die_ which of course would cause mental strain on Nagato himself, however he never commented on it and the pain (pardon the pun) each puppet feels is not tranfered to Nagato himself either. Then there’s the matter that the Rinnegan is the stronger Doujutsu and that Genjutsu (even TS) is nothing but a disruption of the chakra to the receiving end and that _all_ the Doujutsus show indications of being able to observe chakra flow. In other words, even if Nagato is unable to overpower the illusion in the light of five other views of reality then the other puppets should now the their partner is being affected, and thus now Nagato knows of the Genjutsu and can simply ignore that puppet begin affected.

However, Itachi doesn’t know his Genjutsu is being ignored which gives the other Pains an opening.

I also would like to point out that every single time TS was casted the user stayed stationary and has been shown to affect only one person at a time.




> And it is evident now that direct eye contact is not required for Sharingan genjutsu to work. As shown by Kakashi using sharingan genjutsu to knock out two ROOT members.



Scan please? And either way, Sharigan is a doujutsu, its techniques are eye based. Every single time we’ve seen Sharingan genjutsu the caster has been staring at the eyes of his opponent. Saying that there’s no need for eye contact for  Sharigna gejutsu to eb effect is ludicrous. Does that meant that if I have my back turned on Itachi and he casts Ts it would *still* affect me? That’s laughable! Recall that Kurenai and Azuna where not affected by the TS (the strongest Shariga Genjutsu technique shown so far) by closing their eyes! No eye contact = not affected by Sharingan Genjutu.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ZE said:


> Just like the frog song affected Nagato and not the three bodies who appeared in the genjutsu world, right? Oh wait, Nagato was nowhere to be seen...



How do you know it didn't effect Nagato? If the song didn't effect Nagato why would it effect the bodies which have no mind of their own?



> Tsukuyomi affecting Nagato directly is an unlikely speculation because it would go against the info we have on tsukyomi and how a genjutsu works. You can?t put someone in a genjutsu without knowing of his existence because genjutsu works by taking control of someone?s chakra. The frog song took control of Pain?s chakra, not Nagato?s... because Pa and Ma had no idea there was someone controlling the Pains... meaning, they put the Pains in genjutsu, not Nagato and as we know, all Pains share earing (just like sight), so the way the frog song affected the Pains wouldn't be different from how tsukuyomi would work.



Yes you can put somebody in a genjutsu without knowing of their existence, for example Kabuto used a genjutsu to put everybody in the stadium during the chuunin exam to sleep. He most certainly didn't know where and who was being effected by the genjutsu.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> Hachibi is literally inside of Bee, he knows the exact instant Bee is affected by a genjutsu and will auto-dispel is. Hachibi dispelling a genjutsu is way faster than a partner form _outside_ the consciousness of the _receiving end_ of the Genjutsu; it stands to reason that Hachibi be faster than Kakashi or Azon/Kurenai detecting and acting on a Genjutsu casted from Itachi. Which gives me reason to eblive TS wouldn?t work on Bee, or wouldn?t work effectively.



They share a body but not a mind. TS attacks the mind thus Hachibi would not be affected by Bee being hit with a genjutsu. And by the time Hachibi would notice TS would already be over. 



> But Nagato is also receiving visual info form the _other_ puppets that are not being affected by TS, five of them to be precise, which overpower the effect of the illusion with five different views of the reality. As I said, you need to get all six of them for Genjutsu to effectively affect Nagato himself. Recall also that the puppets _die_ which of course would cause mental strain on Nagato himself, however he never commented on it and the pain (pardon the pun) each puppet feels is not tranfered to Nagato himself either. Then there?s the matter that the Rinnegan is the stronger Doujutsu and that Genjutsu (even TS) is nothing but a disruption of the chakra to the receiving end and that _all_ the Doujutsus show indications of being able to observe chakra flow. In other words, even if Nagato is unable to overpower the illusion in the light of five other views of reality then the other puppets should now the their partner is being affected, and thus now Nagato knows of the Genjutsu and can simply ignore that puppet begin affected.
> 
> However, Itachi doesn?t know his Genjutsu is being ignored which gives the other Pains an opening.
> 
> I also would like to point out that every single time TS was casted the user stayed stationary and has been shown to affect only one person at a time.



Again, that's not how it works. Nagato is the only one with an active mind. If Pain were to be attacked through one of it's senses than the only path for the genjutsu to take is to attack Nagato's mind. 




> Scan please? And either way, Sharigan is a doujutsu, its techniques are eye based. Every single time we?ve seen Sharingan genjutsu the caster has been staring at the eyes of his opponent. Saying that there?s no need for eye contact for  Sharigna gejutsu to eb effect is ludicrous. Does that meant that if I have my back turned on Itachi and he casts Ts it would *still* affect me? That?s laughable! Recall that Kurenai and Azuna where not affected by the TS (the strongest Shariga Genjutsu technique shown so far) by closing their eyes! No eye contact = not affected by Sharingan Genjutu.



This one in context
Two people, one eye.


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## ZE (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> How do you know it didn't effect Nagato?


Because Pa and Ma, the people who used the genjutsu, didn't know of Nagato's existence. 



> If the song didn't effect Nagato why would it effect the bodies which have no mind of their own?


The bodies are controlled through Nagato's chakra, not mind. They have their own chakra system as shown when Fat Pain absorbed Naruto's sage chakra and turned into a frog. That wouldn't have happened if Fat Pain was just a puppet. 



> Yes you can put somebody in a genjutsu without knowing of their existence, for example Kabuto used a genjutsu to put everybody in the stadium during the chuunin exam to sleep. He most certainly didn't know where and who was being effected by the genjutsu.


Proof he didn't know where and who was being affected? To put someone in a genjutsu, you have to manipulate his chakra. That's explained in the manga.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> They share a body but not a mind. TS attacks the mind thus Hachibi would not be affected by Bee being hit with a genjutsu. And by the time Hachibi would notice TS would already be over.



They share a body and are able to switch consciousness at will. Genjutsu is an attack to the mind that takes effect through the disruption of chakra flow. Hachibi is directly connected to the Bee?s chakra, he?d _know_ the *exact moment* Bee?s chakra is being disrupted and immediately snap Bee out of it. That?s how it?s gonna be.



> Again, that's not how it works. Nagato is the only one with an active mind. If Pain were to be attacked through one of it's senses than the only path for the genjutsu to take is to attack Nagato's mind.



By that logic the mental strain of dying and receiving wounds would _also_ transfer to Nagato?s mind, but he never comments on it, so it doesn?t happen, which renders your theory wrong. And again, why is affect a single puppet with an illusion overpower the effect of _five_ other puppets that are giving him input of the reality at the same time the illusion is going on. And once again, Genjutsu is a disruption of chakra, Itachi uses TS is disrupts Nagato?s chakra flow in that single Pain and the others take notice, Nagato cuts off his chakra flow to not be affected by the Genjutsu. Of course that later scenario is only necessary only _if_ Nagato cannot overpower TS with a *stronger* Doujutsu and the fact that he?s seeing reality five times as opposed to one illusion.




> This one in context
> Two people, one eye.


Alright I?ll give you that. Two people affected with one eye. However both where making eye contact. Which means that if the opponent _doesn?t_ make eye contact Sharingan-based Genjutsu is useless.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ZE said:


> Because Pa and Ma, the people who used the genjutsu, didn't know of Nagato's existence.



So what? Obviously they had to attack somebody's mind and the only person who's mind they could attack would be Nagato. It's not like they were trying to read Nagato's mind through the genjutsu.



> The bodies are controlled through Nagato's chakra, not mind. They have their own chakra system as shown when Fat Pain absorbed Naruto's sage chakra and turned into a frog. That wouldn't have happened if Fat Pain was just a puppet.



Fat Pain is a human puppet, so obviously it would happen. The chakra he absorbed stated in the puppet and didn't travel back to Nagato. So obviously only the puppet was effected. However if the unbalanced Sage chakra did travel back to Nagato, like the visual data does, than Nagato would have also turned to stone. 



> Proof he didn't know where and who was being affected? To put someone in a genjutsu, you have to manipulate his chakra. That's explained in the manga.



Where does it state that he had to know of their existence?


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Fat Pain is a human puppet, so obviously it would happen. The chakra he absorbed stated in the puppet and didn't travel back to Nagato. So obviously only the puppet was effected. However if the unbalanced Sage chakra did travel back to Nagato, like the visual data does, than Nagato would have also turned to stone.



ALL of Nagato's puppets are previous shinobi Jiraiya faced in the past *all* of them. Which means all are human. The only one that's shown to be _not_ to posses a human body was the one Kakashi killed, other than that one case there’s no indication the other puppets do not posses a convention human chakra flow


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> They share a body and are able to switch consciousness at will. Genjutsu is an attack to the mind that takes effect through the disruption of chakra flow. Hachibi is directly connected to the Bee?s chakra, he?d _know_ the *exact moment* Bee?s chakra is being disrupted and immediately snap Bee out of it. That?s how it?s gonna be.



Again, by the time Hachibi would notice it would be over because the technique is instant. 



> By that logic the mental strain of dying and receiving wounds would _also_ transfer to Nagato?s mind, but he never comments on it, so it doesn?t happen, which renders your theory wrong. And again, why is affect a single puppet with an illusion overpower the effect of _five_ other puppets that are giving him input of the reality at the same time the illusion is going on. And once again, Genjutsu is a disruption of chakra, Itachi uses TS is disrupts Nagato?s chakra flow in that single Pain and the others take notice, Nagato cuts off his chakra flow to not be affected by the Genjutsu. Of course that later scenario is only necessary only _if_ Nagato cannot overpower TS with a *stronger* Doujutsu and the fact that he?s seeing reality five times as opposed to one illusion.



No, no it doesn't. You're talking about something completely irrelevant which has nothing to do with genjutsu. If anything it just shows that you're confused. 

Genjutsu works by attacking the mind through one of the five senses. In other words since Nagato shares the sense of sight with each of the puppets than if any of the puppets are attack with a visual genjutsu it would effect Nagato.

Think of it this way. There are 7 computers, one which does all the work for the 6 others. In other words any program which is going to be executed is executed by one single computer. Any data which is received by the 6 computers is than transmitted to the central computer. If any of the 6 computers were to receive a virus they would than pass it on to the central computer which would than be infected with the virus. 



> Alright I?ll give you that. Two people affected with one eye. However both where making eye contact. Which means that if the opponent _doesn?t_ make eye contact Sharingan-based Genjutsu is useless.



Eye contact occurs when the eyes of two people meet. In other words it would be impossible for Kakashi to use one eye to make eye contact with two people.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> ALL of Nagato's puppets are previous shinobi Jiraiya faced in the past *all* of them. Which means all are human. The only one that's shown to be _not_ to posses a human body was the one Kakashi killed, other than that one case there?s no indication the other puppets do not posses a convention human chakra flow



No, they are not human. They previously were humans before they died and were turned into human puppets.


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## ZE (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> So what? Obviously they had to attack somebody's mind and the only person who's mind they could attack would be Nagato. It's not like they were trying to read Nagato's mind through the genjutsu.


To attack Nagato they would've to transfer their chakra all the way back to Nagato and that didn't happen because they didn't know of Nagato's existence. 



> Fat Pain is a human puppet, so obviously it would happen. The chakra he absorbed stated in the puppet and didn't travel back to Nagato. So obviously only the puppet was effected. However if the unbalanced Sage chakra did travel back to Nagato, like the visual data does, than Nagato would have also turned to stone.


Exactly. The chakra didn't travel back to Nagato. So why would Itachi's chakra when we know for a fact that Pa and Ma's chakra didn't travel back to Nagato? 



> Where does it state that he had to know of their existence?


You have to place your chakra into your enemy's brain.


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## Jak N Blak (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Kakashi survived because Itachi didn't want to kill him. That's also why an 8 year old Sasuke survived.
> 
> And the technique doesn't last a second. It is instant, in Tsukiyomi Itachi creates a world where he is god, he controls time and space in TS. He can create a world where you live happily, get married, have kids, and than have your wife and kids torture you for a decade.



1 second isnt an instant?
And not a decade, 3 days.


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## ? (Apr 28, 2011)

People still saying Tsukuyomi will affect Nagato through Pain?


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

Thanks Ze for providing the scna on how Genjustsu works 

See now? Genjutsu works by disrupting the opponents chakra in the head by injecting their own chakra.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ZE said:


> To attack Nagato they would've to transfer their chakra all the way back to Nagato and that didn't happen because they didn't know of Nagato's existence.



Who said they had to do anything? The chakra uses one of the sense to attack the mind. It's not like the caster's chakra actually attacks the mind. The genjutsu attacks one of the sense and this in turns takes control of the target's chakra which flows through the brain.

In other words it would be Nagato's chakra which does the work, not Itachi's. 



> Exactly. The chakra didn't travel back to Nagato. So why would Itachi's chakra when we know for a fact that Pa and Ma's chakra didn't travel back to Nagato?



Who said that chakra had to travel back to Nagato?



> You have to place your chakra into your enemy's brain.



Where does it say that? Look at what Jiraiya is saying:
"stop *your* chakra flow" He is saying that because it is the target's chakra which is being manipulated not the caster's chakra. 



jaknblak said:


> 1 second isnt an instant?
> And not a decade, 3 days.



You obviously don't know how TS works. Go look it up.


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## ZE (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Who said they had to do anything? The chakra uses one of the sense to attack the mind. It's not like the caster's chakra actually attacks the mind. The genjutsu attacks one of the sense and this in turns takes control of the target's chakra which flows through the brain.
> 
> In other words it would be Nagato's chakra which does the work, not Itachi's.


When you're in a genjutsu, your chakra is being manipulated by someone else's chakra. 

Karin knows Sasuke isn't in a genjutsu because his chakra isn't being manipulated here:


In other words, in order to put him a genjutsu, someone has to place their chakra in Nagato's brain, which didn't happen during the Pain vs Jiraiya fight. 




> Who said that chakra had to travel back to Nagato?


Because if the chakra doesn't travel back to Nagato, then you can't manipulate his brain and make him see things, which is what genjutsu does. 




> Where does it say that? Look at what Jiraiya is saying:
> "stop *your* chakra flow" He is saying that because it is the target's chakra which is being manipulated not the caster's chakra.


Jiriaya says: 
"to control the chakra flow through and linking their cranial nerves" (to put some in a genjutsu) 

"while in genjutsu, the chakra in your HEAD is being controlled by your oponnent".


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Again, by the time Hachibi would notice it would be over because the technique is instant.



Exept that Hachibi's interference is also instantaneous. Not only that but once he breaks Bee out of it, he'd assure him all was an illusion and the pain he felt though it or whatever wasn?t real and Be ewould be fine after shaking his head a bit. 

And of course you would have to show evidence that TS works faster than what Hachibi can dispel Genjutsu to prove me wrong. At any case Hachibi?s been shown to be fully aware of the circumstances of the battle, so again, the exact moment someone tries to Genjutsu Bee, Hachibi will know it and break him out of it, instantly.



> No, no it doesn't. You're talking about something completely irrelevant which has nothing to do with genjutsu. If anything it just shows that you're confused?...



Piggybacking on Ze a little here we have the explanation on the mechanics of Genjutsu. Clearly we see that it affects the senses by the disruption of the chakra flow to the brain (?head?).

And again, Nagato is getting really feeds that counter the illusion from the other five pains. For your scenario to work you?d have to show me an instance in which one of the Pains perspective overpowers the other five because of what he?s seeing. However it doesn?t work like that since even if the views are connected, the Pains are more than capable to work independently of each other.




> Eye contact occurs when the eyes of two people meet. In other words it would be impossible for Kakashi to use one eye to make eye contact with two people.


Except that the two Roots are looking at the exact same place the moment they were Genjutsu?d (aka Kakshi?s eye) Kakashi forcefully placed himself into their field of vision and once they looked into his eye they got Genjutsu?d. Therefore there was eye concat. Two people can look into the eyes of another person at the same time


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ZE said:


> When you're in a genjutsu, your chakra is being manipulated by someone else's chakra.
> 
> Karin knows Sasuke isn't in a genjutsu because his chakra isn't being manipulated here:
> 
> ...



Not so. As you wisely agreed the chakra which is being controlled and causing all the damage is the target's own chakra. And the way that chakra is controlled is through one of the five senses. Not because somebody is inserting their chakra into the target. 

Otherwise there would be no need to involve one of the five senses and the chakra could be inserted directly. Similarly to what the Yamanaka do. However as you might be aware the Yamanaka techniques are ninjutsu and not genjutsu. Because they do exactly what you think genjutsu does instead of what genjutsu actually does. 



> Because if the chakra doesn't travel back to Nagato, then you can't manipulate his brain and make him see things, which is what genjutsu does.



No, genjutsu controls the target's chakra though one of the five senses. Not by inserting their own chakra into the user's chakra. 



> Jiriaya says:
> "to control the chakra flow through and linking their cranial nerves" (to put some in a genjutsu)
> 
> "while in genjutsu, the chakra in your HEAD is being controlled by your oponnent".



Indeed, the chakra is being controlled because the Genjutsu is attacking one of the five senses. Not because the genjutsu caster is controling the target's chakra with his own.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well then provide a scan in which it stated or it's shown that the Chakra flow is disrupted *because* the disruption of the sense not the other way around. Because from where I'm standing it is pretty obvious that Genjutsu causes disruption to the senses _because_ chakra is being manipulated


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## T-Bag (Apr 28, 2011)

@ ELT.

If you're talking about _Itachi's_ Tsukuyomi which can control space/time then no, killerbee cannot disrupt it. Kakashi said there is NO canceling it's effects. Hachibi first has to realize he's in a genjutsu, and by the time he does that, and tries to break out the game would have already ended.

Tsukuyomi is Itachi's world, hachibi/killerbee cannot do anything.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> Exept that Hachibi's interference is also instantaneous. Not only that but once he breaks Bee out of it, he'd assure him all was an illusion and the pain he felt though it or whatever wasn?t real and Be ewould be fine after shaking his head a bit.
> 
> And of course you would have to show evidence that TS works faster than what Hachibi can dispel Genjutsu to prove me wrong. At any case Hachibi?s been shown to be fully aware of the circumstances of the battle, so again, the exact moment someone tries to Genjutsu Bee, Hachibi will know it and break him out of it, instantly.



No Hachibi's interference is not instantaneous. As proven by the fact that Bee was effected by Sasuke's genjutsu. 

And here is the proof you wanted:
Link removed
"There is no canceling the effects of it(TS)." ~Kakashi



> Except that the two Roots are looking at the exact same place the moment they were Genjutsu?d (aka Kakshi?s eye) Kakashi forcefully placed himself into their field of vision and once they looked into his eye they got Genjutsu?d. Therefore there was eye concat. Two people can look into the eyes of another person at the same time



Again, let me restate my previous statement. Eye contact requires two people to look into each others eyes. If only one person is looking into the eyes of another person while the other person is looking elsewhere that means there is no eye contact.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> Well then provide a scan in which it stated or it's shown that the Chakra flow is disrupted *because* the disruption of the sense not the other way around. Because from where I'm standing it is pretty obvious that Genjutsu causes disruption to the senses _because_ chakra is being manipulated



Link removed
"Genjutsu is something that works on your opponent's five senses."


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## ZE (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Not so. As you wisely agreed the chakra which is being controlled and causing all the damage is the target's own chakra. And the way that chakra is controlled is through one of the five senses. Not because somebody is inserting their chakra into the target.
> 
> Otherwise there would be no need to involve one of the five senses and the chakra could be inserted directly. Similarly to what the Yamanaka do. However as you might be aware the Yamanaka techniques are ninjutsu and not genjutsu. Because they do exactly what you think genjutsu does instead of what genjutsu actually does.





So you're saying Nagato's chakra was being controlled by Pa and Ma and yet they didn't know of him? How unlikely is that? You just admitted that to put someone in a genjutsu, you have to manipulate the chakra in your opponent's head... if you dont do that, no genjutsu. Nagato was never controlled by the frog song because his chakra was never controlled and I shouldn't even be explaining this because that's what the manga shows. The frog world only showed the three Pains who heard the frog song... not Nagato. Basically, you're saying Nagato's mind is represented by three Pains that have nothing to do with him. Why wasn't Nagato's mind just represented by his mind and not puppets? 

You use one of the five senses to insert your chakra into your opponent's brain. In this manga chakra does every single thing. All jutsus are chakra based and genjutsu is no exception.


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## Chidori Barrage (Apr 28, 2011)

Madara without Rinnegan? I am not sure if he can defeat Itachi. Because his has no powers beside his time-space Space?Time Migration. It can be argued that he can win itachi at his current level.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No Hachibi's interference is not instantaneous. As proven by the fact that Bee was effected by Sasuke's genjutsu.
> 
> And here is the proof you wanted:
> Link removed
> "There is no canceling the effects of it(TS)." ~Kakashi



Except that Hachibi broke Bee out of the Genjutsu in an instant also. Added to that Kakashi did not say the exact time TS took to take effect and ?an instant? is pretty damn ambiguous it could a second to it could a tenth of a second each of those count as an instant. Which ?instant? is faster, Hachibi?s Genjutsu dispelling or TS? Also where the prove one is faster than the other. If not proof is provided then we must assumed they hold similar ?speed? which cancel each other out, meaning Bee is ultimately unaffected by the gejutsu.
Furthermore the ?no canceling? thing is BS because Sasuke dispelled it, which contradicts the statement with physical prove that renders such statement as untrue.



> Again, let me restate my previous statement. Eye contact requires two people to look into each others eyes. If only one person is looking into the eyes of another person while the other person is looking elsewhere that means there is no eye contact.



Except that when both Roots where affected by the Genjutsu they were *both* looking at the same place, when Kakashi got in their field of vision they where both looking into his eye. Thus eye contact is established and the Genjutsu takes place. Provide me evidence that one of the Root was looking elsewhere when Kakashi Genjutsu?d them


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ZE said:


> So you're saying Nagato's chakra was being controlled by Pa and Ma and yet they didn't know of him? How unlikely is that? You just admitted that to put someone in a genjutsu, you have to manipulate the chakra in your opponent's head... if you dont do that, no genjutsu. Nagato was never controlled by the frog song because his chakra was never controlled and I shouldn't even be explaining this because that's what the manga shows. The frog world only showed the three Pains who heard the frog song... not Nagato. Basically, you're saying Nagato's mind is represented by three Pains that have nothing to do with him. Why wasn't Nagato's mind just represented by his mind and not puppets?



It is very likely. They would not even know they were controlling his chakra. Nor would they know they had attacked him though his sense of hearing. 

And the Genjutsu showed three Pains, however we know that those three Pains did not have an actual brain. In other words all three of those Pains were Nagato. And in interesting thing about genjutsu is that it allows the user to do lots of fun stuff such as turning to bats or snakes. Obviously Nagato chose to represent himself as the three Pains instead of his actual self. 



> You use one of the five senses to insert your chakra into your opponent's brain. In this manga chakra does every single thing. All jutsus are chakra based and genjutsu is no exception.



Then why are the Yamanaka techniques considered ninjutsu when they do exactly what you state genjutsu does?


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Link removed
> "Genjutsu is something that works on your opponent's five senses."



"_TO control the chakra flowing through and the linking of their cranial nerves_? 

Sound suspiciously like it control sense by manipulating chakra doesn?t it?


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> Except that Hachibi broke Bee out of the Genjutsu in an instant also. Added to that Kakashi did not say the exact time TS took to take effect and ?an instant? is pretty damn ambiguous it could a second to it could a tenth of a second each of those count as an instant. Which ?instant? is faster, Hachibi?s Genjutsu dispelling or TS? Also where the prove one is faster than the other. If not proof is provided then we must assumed they hold similar ?speed? which cancel each other out, meaning Bee is ultimately unaffected by the gejutsu.
> Furthermore the ?no canceling? thing is BS because Sasuke dispelled it, which contradicts the statement with physical prove that renders such statement as untrue.



Link removed
Hachibi didn't break Sasuke's genjutsu until after Bee had hit the ground. In other words it cannot break genjutsu instantly. 
Proof:
Bee thought "can't move" after he had already hit the ground which means the genjutsu was still effecting him. 



> Except that when both Roots where affected by the Genjutsu they were *both* looking at the same place, when Kakashi got in their field of vision they where both looking into his eye. Thus eye contact is established and the Genjutsu takes place. Provide me evidence that one of the Root was looking elsewhere when Kakashi Genjutsu?d them



eye con?tact
Noun: The state in which two people are aware of looking directly into one another's eyes


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> "_TO control the chakra flowing through and the linking of their cranial nerves_?
> 
> Sound suspiciously like it control sense by manipulating chakra doesn?t it?



No. It is stated to control the target's chakra by effecting one of the five senses.


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## ZE (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> It is very likely. They would not even know they were controlling his chakra.


So they are manipulating the chakra in Nagato's head and they don't even know of his existence? 



> Nor would they know they had attacked him though his sense of hearing.


They know they attacked and trapped the three Pains who heard the song, precisely the three Pains that appeared in the genjutsu world. What a coincidence. 



> And the Genjutsu showed three Pains, however we know that those three Pains did not have an actual brain.


Of course, they didn't have a brain, but Nagato's brain wasn't with them either. 



> In other words all three of those Pains were Nagato.


Nagato's brain was in his body. The manga showed him moving himself even when he was controlling the Pains. So his brain is always in his real body. What controls the bodies is his chakra, that's what the chakra rods are for. 



> Obviously Nagato chose to represent himself as the three Pains instead of his actual self.


When you mind is being controlled by your opponent, you have no saying in the matter. Pa and Ma were in control, not Nagato.  



> Then why are the Yamanaka techniques considered ninjutsu when they do exactly what you state genjutsu does?


Because Yamanaka techniques are mind jutsus, not illusionary jutsus.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Link removed
> Hachibi didn't break Sasuke's genjutsu until after Bee had hit the ground. In other words it cannot break genjutsu instantly.
> Proof:
> Bee thought "can't move" after he had already hit the ground which means the genjutsu was still effecting him.



And that Genjutsu was TS which Hachibi broke bee out off 





> eye con?tact
> Noun: The state in which two people are aware of looking directly into one another's eyes



 Doesn't that even change the fact that when the Roots whre Genjutsu'd the where *both* looking into Kakashi's eye?


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ZE said:


> So they are manipulating the chakra in Nagato's head and they don't even know of his existence?
> 
> They know they attacked and trapped the three Pains who heard the song, precisely the three Pains that appeared in the genjutsu world. What a coincidence.
> 
> Of course, they didn't have a brain, but Nagato's brain wasn't with them either.



If the thee Pains who were trapped in the genjutsu didn't have brains than obviously they wouldn't be trapped in the genjutsu. However somebody was actually trapped by the genjutsu. Which means Nagato had to be trapped by the genjutsu. 

There are two possible ways that the Frog song could have worked:
1. Nagato was effected and was displayed as the three Pains Jiraiya had already seen.
OR
2. Nagato was not effected. And neither were the three Pains since Nagato is controlling them.

Obviously what you're suggesting doesn't work. 



> Nagato's brain was in his body. The manga showed him moving himself even when he was controlling the Pains. So his brain is always in his real body. What controls the bodies is his chakra, that's what the chakra rods are for.



Yes. I am well aware of this. And this only serves to prove my point. 



> When you mind is being controlled by your opponent, you have no saying in the matter. Pa and Ma were in control, not Nagato.



So you're saying that Ma and Pa chose who would appear trapped inside the genjutsu. Well if they did than obviously the three Pain bodies would appear to be trapped because Ma and Pa don't know about Nagato. 



> Because Yamanaka techniques are mind jutsus, not illusionary jutsus.



And what's the difference between the genjutsu you're describing and the Yamanaka techniques?



ELT said:


> And that Genjutsu was TS which Hachibi broke bee out off



That genjutsu was never named, therefore it is an unknown genjutsu. 



> Doesn't that even change the fact that when the Roots whre Genjutsu'd the where *both* looking into Kakashi's eye?



No it doesn't I just wanted to point out that you don't know what the definition of eye contact is.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> That genjutsu was never named, therefore it is an unknown genjutsu.



Sasuke performed it while having the Mangekyo activated, the only Genjutsu the Mangekyo is known for it TS, the fact that it remained unnamed means there was no need to name it because it should be intuitive what technique it is, aka it was TS.



> No it doesn't I just wanted to point out that you don't know what the definition of eye contact is.


Which is irrelevant in the light that both Roots where looking into the eye of the Sharigan-based Genjutsu caster which is where the effect came form, aka looking into the eye.


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## jimbob631 (Apr 28, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> @ ELT.
> 
> If you're talking about _Itachi's_ Tsukuyomi which can control space/time then no, killerbee cannot disrupt it. Kakashi said there is NO canceling it's effects. Hachibi first has to realize he's in a genjutsu, and by the time he does that, and tries to break out the game would have already ended.
> 
> Tsukuyomi is Itachi's world, hachibi/killerbee cannot do anything.



Just because Kakashi said there is no canceling its effect doesn't mean nothing can stop Itachi's genjutsu.  Killer Bee also made a definite statement saying that genjutsu could not work on him.  The way it works is while Bee would be in a genjutsu, Hachibi is not so he can instantaneously break him out.  I guess an argument can be made that in that one instant Bee will already experience the full effects of his genjutsu as a nano second in the real world can be days in Itachi's genjutsu.  Im not sure it would work like that though, and remember  the hachibi's chakra does not move with killer bee so i see no reason why hachibi cant take over the body himself and continuing fighting.

Edit:  Also im of the opinion Sasuke can use the same MS genjutsu Itachi did, its just a lot weaker.  It was said you need amaterasu and tsukuyomi to awaken Susanno and when Sasuke used his genjutsu on Bee his eyes were in MS.  I think that shows Bee can break out of tsukuyomi.


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## ZE (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> If the thee Pains who were trapped in the genjutsu didn't have brains than obviously they wouldn't be trapped in the genjutsu. However somebody was actually trapped by the genjutsu. Which means Nagato had to be trapped by the genjutsu.


The chakra in Pain?s brains (the part of the chakra with which Nagato was controlling them) was being controlled by Pa and Ma?s chakra. They couldn?t move because Nagato?s chakra wasn?t in control. Instead, Pa and Ma were stopping the Pains from moving, not Nagato. Nagato just couldn?t control them anymore. 



> There are two possible ways that the Frog song could have worked:
> 1. Nagato was effected and was displayed as the three Pains Jiraiya had already seen.
> OR


What a coincidence that someone?s mind is represented by three bodies that have nothing to do with that person. 



> 2. Nagato was not effected. And neither were the three Pains since Nagato is controlling them.
> 
> Obviously what you're suggesting doesn't work.



There are a lot of other options, like the one I just gave you. The chakra with which Nagato was controlling the bodies was subdued by the frog?s chakra.Remember, chakra does everything in this manga. 




> Yes. I am well aware of this. And this only serves to prove my point.


Not at all. If Nagato?s mind is with his main body, that means the only contact between Nagato and the Pains is the chakra inside the Pains. So the only thing you can do is attack the bodies and the chakra that is in them. Nagato is safe.  


> So you're saying that Ma and Pa chose who would appear trapped inside the genjutsu. Well if they did than obviously the three Pain bodies would appear to be trapped because Ma and Pa don't know about Nagato.


No. I?m saying the frog genjutsu world just depicted what we saw? the three bodies who heard the song were caught, not Nagato. Nagato isn?t the Pains and Nagato isn?t there. 


> And what's the difference between the genjutsu you're describing and the Yamanaka techniques?


The Yamanata enters someone?s body transferring their mind. If a Yamanaka tried to use their jutsu in one of the Pains, he wouldn?t be magically transferred to Nagato?s real body. Just like if you tried to put the Pains in genjutsu, Nagato wouldn?t be affected. The manga already explained that Nagato sees what the Pains see like a camera, his eyes aren?t actually with the Pains.


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## Closet Pervert (Apr 28, 2011)

Not this fucking Tsukiyomi mass hypnosis shit again. I have no time to read your shitty arguments, but:

1. Genjutsu works by actively taking control of one's brain with your own chakra. Therefore, Shitachi would have to send his chakra to one Realm, then use that Realm's body to send his own chakra from that body to Nagato with Nagato's own chakra rods using the right encoded frequencies into Nagato's receivers, then from there to Nagato's brain. If the bodies are completely taken over by an invader they can't send chakra themselves, can they?

2. The Realms are well prepared with Genjutsu blocks as seen when Inoichi tried to enter Animal Realm's brain. It's not an easy thing to actively penetrate the mind of even the bodies. And we know Itacshit's Genjutsu are very personal, he likes to get into people's heads (his Genjutsu against Naruto had Gaara's eye in it IIRC, how did he know about that?) because he's a sick fuck unlike the Ni Dai Sennin who just want the victim incapacitated enough to kill him. To torture someone with Tsukiyomi you'd have to penetrate the Genjutsu barriers of the victim to enter the mind to actively mess with it, not just knock the bodily control away passively.

3. Say the Tsukiyomid body sends the sensory data to Nagato anyway. The other bodies send their data too. So Nagato will experience the pain but 5 other Pains too, plus his own body's senses. If you stick one of your fingers into sulfuric acid it will hurt like friend but you won't be incapacitated.

4. Say Nagato, who is Shitachi's boss and probably knows at least Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu, is put completely under Tsukiyomi, which he won't but let's bullshit that he is. Nagato has directly experienced being stabbed by several blades and having his legs burned (which didn't stop him from killing most of Hanzo's men and almost Hanzo himself or even slow him down), likes to mutilate his own bodies, and through his bodies has experienced being crushed to pieces and other violent DEATH many times. Whatcha gonna do Shitachi?

5. Rinnegan > Sharingan and can see chakra, Tsukiyomi works through the eye.

/Tsukiyomi

Now can we get back to the topic of wanking at Uchiha in general and insulting everybody else's fandom? Also, watch me get banned for calling out a thread made as a fuck you to everyone who doesn't have their heads up Uchiha ass.



AKmyWaffle said:


> Kakashi survived but he questioned why Itachi didn't kill him. This in itself would suggest that Itachi can choose to kill or not to kill with TS and he chose not to kill Kakashi for obvious reasons.


Or that he could've used that second Kakashi was incapacitated to throw a kunai at him.




Kakashi Hatake said:


> Lol, Kakashi did not do it willingly. Why would he want to get himself killed.


He said he was gonna fight Shitachi's Sharingan with his. Hey where can i read the fanfic where it says Kakashi knew anything of Tsukiyomi prior to that? Also where does it say Kakashi didn't look into Shitachi's eye willingly? Where did Kakashi say he would die if he looked in the eye?


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> Sasuke performed it while having the Mangekyo activated, the only Genjutsu the Mangekyo is known for it TS, the fact that it remained unnamed means there was no need to name it because it should be intuitive what technique it is, aka it was TS.



There are a bunch of different genjutsu Sasuke has used while having his MS activated. MS doesn't limit a sharingan user's ability to use genjutsu which are not TS. To assume that it does is simply ignorant. 



ZE said:


> The chakra in Pain?s brains (the part of the chakra with which Nagato was controlling them) was being controlled by Pa and Ma?s chakra. They couldn?t move because Nagato?s chakra wasn?t in control. Instead, Pa and Ma were stopping the Pains from moving, not Nagato. Nagato just couldn?t control them anymore.



I thought we already agreed that dead corpses don't have functioning brains. And since dead men tell no tales would you mind explaining why the Pain bodies were able to communicate with Jiraiya?



> What a coincidence that someone?s mind is represented by three bodies that have nothing to do with that person.



Well Nagato was physically representing himself with those three bodies, so why would he represent his mind any other way?



> There are a lot of other options, like the one I just gave you. The chakra with which Nagato was controlling the bodies was subdued by the frog?s chakra.Remember, chakra does everything in this manga.



And this is not an option because the Pain bodies would simply seize to function and Nagato wouldn't have been able to complement Jiraiya on the technique.



> Not at all. If Nagato?s mind is with his main body, that means the only contact between Nagato and the Pains is the chakra inside the Pains. So the only thing you can do is attack the bodies and the chakra that is in them. Nagato is safe.



No. Nagato and the Pain bodies have to communicate somehow. They do this by sending chakra signals back and forth. This means that Nagato can be attacked by one of the chakra signals sent by a Pain body. 

For example if that chakra signal carried corrupted or harmful data than the main body would be effected by it. 



> No. I?m saying the frog genjutsu world just depicted what we saw? the three bodies who heard the song were caught, not Nagato. Nagato isn?t the Pains and Nagato isn?t there.



Nagato has to be there, otherwise the Pain bodies would be unable to talk since they cannot communicate for themselves. 



> The Yamanata enters someone?s body transferring their mind. If a Yamanaka tried to use their jutsu in one of the Pains, he wouldn?t be magically transferred to Nagato?s real body. Just like if you tried to put the Pains in genjutsu, Nagato wouldn?t be affected. The manga already explained that Nagato sees what the Pains see like a camera, his eyes aren?t actually with the Pains.



You haven't answered the question. What's the difference between the Yamanaka ninjutsu and what you think genjutsu is?


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## Forlong (Apr 28, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Itachi is not impossible to defeat, because Madara and Sasuke can defeat him now.



By saying that, you're saying that Naruto can beat Itachi, as he is at least equal to Sasuke (most likely superior at this point, as Sasuke hasn't used the EMS yet).  And, if Sasuke can beat Itachi, all the characters that can beat Sasuke can beat Itachi.  Thus you are contradicting your own claim.

As I said, all these shinobi could beat Itachi:
Madara
Onoki
A
Killer Bee
Naruto
Sasuke
Mei

Itachi was said to be invincible, yet he hadn't fought a lot of opponents close to his level.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> There are a bunch of different genjutsu Sasuke has used while having his MS activated. MS doesn't limit a sharingan user's ability to use genjutsu which are not TS. To assume that it does is simply ignorant.



And you ignore the context  Sasuke is fighting an extremely tough opponent that is approaching him at high speed, he recons Genjutsu would stop him. Taking into account he considers Bee a tough opponent why would he even try an attack that is *not* his strongest? TS is the strongest Genjutsu known so far and Sasuke had Mangekyo active at the time; why would Sasuke use any other Genjutsu to stop Bee? Is not like he had unlocked the other Mangekyo powers at the time, so it?s logical to assume he used TS.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> And you ignore the context  Sasuke is fighting an extremely tough opponent that is approaching him at high speed, he recons Genjutsu would stop him. Taking into account he considers Bee a tough opponent why would he even try an attack that is *not* his strongest? TS is the strongest Genjutsu known so far and Sasuke had Mangekyo active at the time; why would Sasuke use any other Genjutsu to stop Bee? Is not like he had unlocked the other Mangekyo powers at the time, so it’s logical to assume he used TS.



Whatever genjutsu Sasuke used it has few if any similarities to Itachi's TS (the genjutsu we are discussing) and thus has no relevance to this conversation. 

Let me remind you where we are in our conversation. Itachi's TS is instant and therefore cannot be canceled. Hachibi cannot cancel genjutsu instantly. Therefore Itachi could easily defeat Bee with TS.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Let me remind you where we are in our conversation. Itachi's TS is instant and therefore cannot be canceled. Hachibi cannot cancel genjutsu instantly. Therefore Itachi could easily defeat Bee with TS.



Only that TS has been shown to both be countered and dispelled by Sasuke. Which means that even if the effect is instantaneous, it can still be countered. Itachi Genjutu?s Bee, Hachibi _instantly_ takes note of the chakra disruption (because he?s inhabiting Bee?s body) the Genjutsu causes and breaks Bee out of it. Hachibi can also take over Bee?s body and fight Itachi while Bee is recuperating over the effects of Genjutsu.

If you are only using Kakashi?s statement as based that TS cannot be cancelled then I can do the same and use Bee?s statement that Genjutsu wont stop him for long.


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## jimbob631 (Apr 28, 2011)

Forlong said:


> By saying that, you're saying that Naruto can beat Itachi, as he is at least equal to Sasuke (most likely superior at this point, as Sasuke hasn't used the EMS yet).  And, if Sasuke can beat Itachi, all the characters that can beat Sasuke can beat Itachi.  Thus you are contradicting your own claim.
> 
> As I said, all these shinobi could beat Itachi:
> Madara
> ...



Onoki, A, and Mei are not beating Itachi.  I doubt they can get past his genjutsu to be honest.  Itachi wasted Orochimaru multiple times, and none of these guys are above Orochimaru.  Raikage did well against Sasuke, but if he was up against a complete MS I don't think he has a chance.


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## butcher50 (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> And you ignore the context  Sasuke is fighting an extremely tough opponent that is approaching him at high speed, he recons Genjutsu would stop him. Taking into account he considers Bee a tough opponent why would he even try an attack that is *not* his strongest? TS is the strongest Genjutsu known so far and Sasuke had Mangekyo active at the time; why would Sasuke use any other Genjutsu to stop Bee? Is not like he had unlocked the other Mangekyo powers at the time, so it?s logical to assume he used TS.



sasuke's Tsuku is far weaker though, Dazo (the Fuhrer) confirmed it.


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## jimbob631 (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Whatever genjutsu Sasuke used it has few if any similarities to Itachi's TS (the genjutsu we are discussing) and thus has no relevance to this conversation.
> 
> Let me remind you where we are in our conversation. Itachi's TS is instant and therefore cannot be canceled. Hachibi cannot cancel genjutsu instantly. Therefore Itachi could easily defeat Bee with TS.



Didn't Sasuke's genjutsu also look very similar with the black and white stuff to Itachi's?  Or how about the fact that its stated you need TS and Amaterasu to awaken Susano?  How much sense does it make that Sasuke's MS genjutsu is a completely random genjutsu even though he awakens a jutsu that you need Ts to awaken?  Everything points to Sasuke having it.  

And even if Itachi's genjutsu works on Bee, Hachibi can take over and continue fighting.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

butcher50 said:


> sasuke's Tsuku is far weaker though, Dazo (the Fuhrer) confirmed it.



Even then it wont matter because Genjutsu is a disruption of the Chakra, Hachibi takes note of this, and even if Bee himself cannot react to the Genjutsu, Hachibi can normalize the flow thus cancelling TS.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> Only that TS has been shown to both be countered and dispelled by Sasuke. Which means that even if the effect is instantaneous, it can still be countered. Itachi Genjutu?s Bee, Hachibi _instantly_ takes note of the chakra disruption (because he?s inhabiting Bee?s body) the Genjutsu causes and breaks Bee out of it. Hachibi can also take over Bee?s body and fight Itachi while Bee is recuperating over the effects of Genjutsu.
> 
> If you are only using Kakashi?s statement as based that TS cannot be cancelled then I can do the same and use Bee?s statement that Genjutsu wont stop him for long.



Again, TS is instant. This means that by the time Hachibi notices anything the genjutsu is over. And bee explained the reason why genjutsu wouldn't work on him because Hachibi can cancel it. However TS would work because it is impossible to cancel. 



jimbob631 said:


> Didn't Sasuke's genjutsu also look very similar with the black and white stuff to Itachi's?  Or how about the fact that its stated you need TS and Amaterasu to awaken Susano?  How much sense does it make that Sasuke's MS genjutsu is a completely random genjutsu even though he awakens a jutsu that you need Ts to awaken?  Everything points to Sasuke having it.
> 
> And even if Itachi's genjutsu works on Bee, Hachibi can take over and continue fighting.



According to Sasuke you need to awaken the power in both of your eyes to use Susano. Sasuke's powers are Amaterasu and the ability to control the black flames, Enton.

Show me where the genjutsu used on Bee is stated to be Tsukiyomi.


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## Eternal Pein (Apr 28, 2011)

Sasuke's Mangekyou Sharingan tech's are Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi. I'm pretty sure every Genjutsu Sasuke has used has been just a normal Sharingan Genjutsu. Not once has it been hinted that Sasuke can use Tsukuyomi.

Also I don't believe Tsukuyomi is impossible to break though it's effect's my already have been done by the time you can break it, i'm not sure.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> Even then it wont matter because Genjutsu is a disruption of the Chakra, Hachibi takes note of this, and even if Bee himself cannot react to the Genjutsu, Hachibi can normalize the flow thus cancelling TS.



Bee can react to TS, however he is the only one who can react. When TS is used the target, in this case Bee, is trapped in Itachi's world where Itachi is god. This all happens instantly in the real world, that's why nobody besides the person who was hit with the genjutsu can break it. And to break the genjutsu a powerful sharingan is required. That's why nobody with the exception of Sasuke and Madara could defeat Itachi.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Again, TS is instant. This means that by the time Hachibi notices anything the genjutsu is over. And bee explained the reason why genjutsu wouldn't work on him because Hachibi can cancel it. *However TS would work because it is impossible to cancel. *



On the Bolded: and that's why Sasuke was able to cancel it despite not having a buddy inside of his consciousness to dispel it for him, even though its instantaneous and impossible to cancel, amiright?

TS being impossible to cancel is an hyperbolic statement proven wrong the moment Sasuke broek out of it, without the aid of a Bijuu. The effect of the Genjutsu might be instantaneous but that didn?t stop Sasuke from breaking out of it.

If the *only* basis that TS cannot be dispelled is a character statement that _was proven wrong_ then I see no reason why we shouldn?t take Bee?s own statement (_that so far hasn?t been contradicted btw_) that Gejutsu is useless on him as face value too.


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## Eternal Pein (Apr 28, 2011)

I'm sorry but saying that only Madara and Sasuke can beat Itachi because of Tsukuyomi is just bull. There are other ninja out there that are more then capable of beating Itachi.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> On the Bolded: and that's why Sasuke was able to cancel it despite not having a buddy inside of his consciousness to dispel it for him, even though its instantaneous and impossible to cancel, amiright?
> 
> TS being impossible to cancel is an hyperbolic statement proven wrong the moment Sasuke broek out of it, without the aid of a Bijuu. The effect of the Genjutsu might be instantaneous but that didn?t stop Sasuke from breaking out of it.
> 
> If the *only* basis that TS cannot be dispelled is a character statement that _was proven wrong_ then I see no reason why we shouldn?t take Bee?s own statement (_that so far hasn?t been contradicted btw_) that Gejutsu is useless on him as face value too.



Cancel in this case refers to the act of somebody other than the person trapped in the genjutsu breaking the genjutsu. What Sasuke did was break Itachi's TS himself. 

Again, Sasuke breaking the technique is different from somebody else canceling it. The effects of the genjutsu are instant in the real world. However the person trapped inside the genjutsu has all the time Itachi gives him to break the genjutsu. In Kakashi's case Kakashi had 72 hours to break TS.


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## ? (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> That's why nobody with the exception of Sasuke and Madara could defeat Itachi.



No. Itachi is most likely the weakest Uchiha to ever awaken the Mangekyo and we know for a fact that there are several characters that can and will defeat them in the story.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Bee can react to TS, however he is the only one who can react. *When TS is used the target, in this case Bee, is trapped in Itachi's world where Itachi is god*. This all happens instantly in the real world, that's why nobody besides the person who was hit with the genjutsu can break it. And to break the genjutsu a powerful sharingan is required. That's why nobody with the exception of Sasuke and Madara could defeat Itachi.



TS affects the perception of the victim by disruption of its chakra flow like every other Genjutsu in the world. TS just has the peculiarity of being far stronger and harder to break out of?.And with the bolded?are you suggesting that Itachi with TS has the ability to place the users mind into an alternate dimension? Is that really what you are implying? That the mind leaves the body into a place where Itachi has control? Because that is a complete contradiction to what the manga says are the megcanics for Genjutsu


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 28, 2011)

Closet Pervert said:


> He said he was gonna fight Shitachi's Sharingan with his. Hey where can i read the fanfic where it says Kakashi knew anything of Tsukiyomi prior to that? Also where does it say Kakashi didn't look into Shitachi's eye willingly? Where did Kakashi say he would die if he looked in the eye?



I don't know who your referring to when your calling them Shitachi, try reading the manga again and then you should be able to spell a characters name correctly.



Forlong said:


> By saying that, you're saying that Naruto can beat Itachi, as he is at least equal to Sasuke (most likely superior at this point, as Sasuke hasn't used the EMS yet).  And, if Sasuke can beat Itachi, all the characters that can beat Sasuke can beat Itachi.  Thus you are contradicting your own claim.
> 
> As I said, all these shinobi could beat Itachi:
> Madara
> ...



A>B>C logic doesn't work.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> TS affects the perception of the victim by disruption of its chakra flow like every other Genjutsu in the world. TS just has the peculiarity of being far stronger and harder to break out of?.And with the bolded?are you suggesting that Itachi with TS has the ability to place the users mind into an alternate dimension? Is that really what you are implying? That the mind leaves the body into a place where Itachi has control? Because that is a complete contradiction to what the manga says are the megcanics for Genjutsu



No, TS is special. Unlike the other genjutsu which drag on and on... TS ends instantly in the real world. That's why it cannot be canceled because it is over before anybody (Besides the target and user) can tell that it was used. 

TS places the target into Itachi's dimension where Itachi controls time and space. That's why TS is regarded as the most powerful genjutsu, and the reason why it requires MS.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
User: Uchiha Itachi
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!

Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, *the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible.* Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange *world of infinity*, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.

Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labeled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. *Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.*


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, TS is special. Unlike the other genjutsu which drag on and on... TS ends instantly in the real world. That's why it cannot be canceled because it is over before anybody (Besides the target and user) can tell that it was used.



But you failed to recognize just _what_ the technique is affecting. TS is Genjustu and by definition what is does is manipulate the chakra flow to the brain in order to mess around with what the senses perceive. Hachibi is inside Bee?s body therefore he can tell when Bee?s chakra is acting up because of a Genjutsu. He can easily break through the effect _in the middle_ of TS thus freeing Bee of the genjutsu, or better yet, normalize Bee?s chakra with his own canceling the Genjutsu.



> TS places the target into Itachi's dimension where Itachi controls time and space. That's why TS is regarded as the most powerful genjutsu, and the reason why it requires MS.


Controls the victims _perception_ of time and space. When Kakashi was Genjutsu?d his body never did not leave to anywhere nor did his mind. TS manipulated his perception the time and space as well as what Kasashi was  seeing and feeling which is what created the mental stress and knockout effect TS induces.


And again what is stopping Bee form simply *not* looking into Itachi's Mangakyo to avoid the effect all together?


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Logical fallacy by appeal to authority  Further more if that was taken from the databook I will be forced to dismiss it unless it is backed up by in-panel evidence since the databook _also_ stated Black Flames burn with the same heat as the Sun which compared to what we?ve seen in the Manga is false


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> But you failed to recognize just _what_ the technique is affecting. TS is Genjustu and by definition what is does is manipulate the chakra flow to the brain in order to mess around with what the senses perceive. Hachibi is inside Bee’s body therefore he can tell when Bee’s chakra is acting up because of a Genjutsu. He can easily break through the effect _in the middle_ of TS thus freeing Bee of the genjutsu, or better yet, normalize Bee’s chakra with his own canceling the Genjutsu.



That's not how TS works, read the databook entry I posted above. Like I've said about 50 times now. TS ends instantly, therefore it is impossible to cancel. This is a manga fact. 



> Controls the victims _perception_ of time and space. When Kakashi was Genjutsu’d his body never did not leave to anywhere nor did his mind. TS manipulated his perception the time and space as well as what Kasashi was  seeing and feeling which is what created the mental stress and knockout effect TS induces.



No, the body is never transfered anywhere. However the mind was trapped in Itachi's world. 



> And again what is stopping Bee form simply *not* looking into Itachi's Mangakyo to avoid the effect all together?



Because Itachi can move his eyes into Bee's field of vision. And if Bee isn't watching Itachi's eyes than Itachi can kill Bee with Amaterasu.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> Logical fallacy by appeal to authority  Further more if that was taken from the databook I will be forced to dismiss it unless it is backed up by in-panel evidence since the databook _also_ stated Black Flames burn with the same heat as the Sun which compared to what we?ve seen in the Manga is false



Fine, let's break down the situation. The manga states the following:
Only a sharingan user can beat Itachi.

Bee does not have the sharingan. He is fucked. Unless you can provide a scan which proves that statement wrong your argument is fucked. So do you have a scan which proves that a none sharingan user can defeat Itachi?


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> That's not how TS works, read the databook entry I posted above. Like I've said about 50 times now. TS ends instantly, therefore it is impossible to cancel. This is a manga fact. No, the body is never transfered anywhere. However the mind was trapped in Itachi's world.





ELT said:


> Logical fallacy by appeal to authority  Further more if that was taken from the databook I will be forced to dismiss it unless it is backed up by in-panel evidence since the databook _also_ stated Black Flames burn with the same heat as the Sun which compared to what we?ve seen in the Manga is false



 TS = Genjutsu = mechanics work by manipulation of chakra flow to the brain = mind doen?st go anywhere = victim?s *perception* (in this case of time and space) is manipulated



> Because Itachi can move his eyes into Bee's field of vision. And if Bee isn't watching Itachi's eyes than Itachi can kill Bee with Amaterasu.



Bee will still be watching Itahci himself, just not his eye. Plus is not like Bee is going to stay stationary while avoiding Itahci's Mangekyo eye


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> Logical fallacy by appeal to authority  Further more if that was taken from the databook I will be forced to dismiss it unless it is backed up by in-panel evidence since the databook _also_ stated Black Flames burn with the same heat as the Sun which compared to what we’ve seen in the Manga is false



Databooks are Secondary Canon, whenever the Secondary Canon contradicts something form the Primary Canon, the manga then whatever Databook says is taken as non canon. 

So, so far whatever manga said about Tsukiyomi is canon unless you can disprove it by using the manga. Until then you have been proven wrong and accept defeat.


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## ? (Apr 28, 2011)

The manga also said Jiraya> Itachi. That is more believable than Itachi only being beatable by an Uchiha. Infact, the databook said FCD can't be countered so if we went by the logic that always seems to get applied to Itachi, Itachi can't possibly block the attack.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Fine, let's break down the situation. The manga states the following:
> Only a sharingan user can beat Itachi.
> 
> Bee does not have the sharingan. He is fucked. Unless you can provide a scan which proves that statement wrong your argument is fucked. So do you have a scan which proves that a none sharingan user can defeat Itachi?



How about you show me a scan where Itachi?s TS was able o take down anyway who had knowledge ot it and not someone taken by surprise by the technique? 
Deva Pain does Mini-Moon Tensai. Good Game Itachi. Why? Because the only entity shown to be able to counter the technique is Eight-Tailed Kyuubi Naruto, Itachi doesn?t have that kind of fire power therefore eh gets squashed inside the mini-moon.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> How about you show me a scan where Itachi?s TS was able o take down anyway who had knowledge ot it and not someone taken by surprise by the technique?
> Deva Pain does Mini-Moon Tensai. Good Game Itachi. Why? Because the only entity shown to be able to counter the technique is Eight-Tailed Kyuubi Naruto, Itachi doesn?t have that kind of fire power therefore eh gets squashed inside the mini-moon.



I'm not the one trying to prove something. You are. Therefore the burden of providing evidence falls on you. Until than you don't even have an argument.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 28, 2011)

Inu said:


> The manga also said Jiraya> Itachi. That is more believable than Itachi only being beatable by an Uchiha. Infact, the databook said FCD can't be countered so if we went by the logic that always seems to get applied to Itachi, Itachi can't possibly block the attack.



When placed in context it means something completely different.

Itachi said to Kisame that he cannot defeat Jiraiya even if he had help from the akatsuki. Now in part 2 we found out Itachi was a good character. Therefore it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Itachi was only lying to make Kisame and Akatsuki scared of Jiraiya power. This is so that akatsuki doesn't go after Naruto or Jiraiya.

Whats FCD and where did it state in the databook. Provide evidence next time.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> I'm not the one trying to prove something. You are. Therefore the burden of providing evidence falls on you. Until than you don't even have an argument.



How about the fact that i cannot because Itachi was a lazy fuck who never bothered using TS on a non-sharingan user ever


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> How about the fact that i cannot because Itachi was a lazy fuck who never bothered using TS on a non-sharingan user ever



Than your argument is fucked.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Than your argument is fucked.



Because Itachi's never shown to be able to Tsukuyomi someone without sharingan?


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> Because Itachi's never shown to be able to Tsukuyomi someone without sharingan?



Because Kishimoto made Itachi virtually unbeatable.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Because Kishimoto made Itachi virtually unbeatable.



Baseless statement is baseless  Of course Itachi's never shown to Tsukiyomi someone withtout Sharigna on-panel that must be because he simply cannot


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## jimbob631 (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Again, TS is instant. This means that by the time Hachibi notices anything the genjutsu is over. And bee explained the reason why genjutsu wouldn't work on him because Hachibi can cancel it. However TS would work because it is impossible to cancel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



to read and defeat all types of gen, tai, and nin-jutsu
to read and defeat all types of gen, tai, and nin-jutsu

The first link shows Sasuke was using MS while casting the genjutsu, the second shows the actual genjutsu effect was similar to TS.  

Its not explicitly stated, but it doesn't have to be.  Thats enough to conclude he's using the same jutsu, especially because its stated to unlock Susano you need TS and Amaterasu, too many things point to Sasuke's genjutsu being TS.  

Even if it isn't TS I already explained that hachibi can take over Bees body and continuing fighting, but I really doubt that would be necessary.  Your comment that only Sasuke and Madara can beat Itachi is silly.  Think about it like this, Madara likely has or had TS or else he wouldn't be talking about casting an infinite one.  How then did he lose to Hashirama?  What probably happened was Hashirama's bijuu control allowed him to break out of Madara's genjutsu, or he just broke out of it himself.  Either way it proves TS isn't invincible.  Plus people like Pain who aren't actually looking at his eyes, and anyone fast enough can avoid eye contact.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> Baseless statement is baseless  Of course Itachi's never shown to Tsukiyomi someone withtout Sharigna on-panel that must be because he simply cannot



Itachi used TS on an 8yo Sasuke. At the time Sasuke did not have the sharingan. 
to read and defeat all types of gen, tai, and nin-jutsu
to read and defeat all types of gen, tai, and nin-jutsu
to read and defeat all types of gen, tai, and nin-jutsu


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> to read and defeat all types of gen, tai, and nin-jutsu
> to read and defeat all types of gen, tai, and nin-jutsu
> 
> The first link shows Sasuke was using MS while casting the genjutsu, the second shows the actual genjutsu effect was similar to TS.
> ...



TS is used to torture. The jutsu Sasuke used was used to restrain. They are two different techniques.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Itachi used TS on an 8yo Sasuke. At the time Sasuke did not have the sharingan.
> to read and defeat all types of gen, tai, and nin-jutsu
> to read and defeat all types of gen, tai, and nin-jutsu
> to read and defeat all types of gen, tai, and nin-jutsu



8 Yeard Old Sauce = Bellow Fodder level

I guess the only people that Itachi can Tsukuyomi are Sharigan users and 8 year olds. Cuz you know, there's no on-panel evidence of the contrary, just as there?s no on-panel evidence of Bee breaking of of Ictahi?s Tsukuyomi therefore be cannot (even though eh stated Gejutsu is useless against him _after_ he proved the point and so far has not been contradicted )


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## jimbob631 (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> TS is used to torture. The jutsu Sasuke used was used to restrain. They are two different techniques.



So Sasuke just has some random MS genjutsu even when you need TS for Susano and later Sasuke awakens it?

You also didn't respond to a single one of my points, Ill take it you realize its silly to say Itachi can only be beaten by Sasuke and Madara.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> 8 Yeard Old Sauce = Bellow Fodder level
> 
> I guess the only people that Itachi can Tsukuyomi are Sharigan users and 8 year olds. Cuz you know, there's no on-panel evidence of the contrary, just as there?s no on-panel evidence of Bee breaking of of Ictahi?s Tsukuyomi therefore be cannot (even though eh stated Gejutsu is useless against him _after_ he proved the point and so far has not been contradicted )



Sadly your argument is still fucked because you don't have a single piece of evidence which supports it. If you do find a scan which states that Itachi can only use TS on sharingan users and Sasuke than go ahead and post it. Until than your argument and Bee remain fucked.



jimbob631 said:


> So Sasuke just has some random MS genjutsu even when you need TS for Susano and later Sasuke awakens it?
> 
> You also didn't respond to a single one of my points, Ill take it you realize its silly to say Itachi can only be beaten by Sasuke and Madara.



First of all you didn't make a single point worth responding to. You keep talking about Sasuke and Madara while we are discussion Itachi. Sasuke's abilities with the sharingan are not relevant here.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Sadly your argument is still fucked because you don't have a single piece of evidence which supports it. If you do find a scan which states that Itachi can only use TS on sharingan users and Sasuke than go ahead and post it. Until than your argument and Bee remain fucked.



And so is yours since nothing supports the fact the TS can affect anyone who's not 8 year old sasuke or a sharingan user 

And of course there's no panel that states that Itachi's TS will do shit to Bee after the statement *and* confirmation he's pretty much immune to Genjutsu so I guess _your_ argument didn't even exist to begin with


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## jimbob631 (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> First of all you didn't make a single point worth responding to. You keep talking about Sasuke and Madara while we are discussion Itachi. Sasuke's abilities with the sharingan are not relevant here.



You said only Sasuke and Madara can beat Itachi, it had everything to do with the argument.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> And so is your since nothign supports the fact the TS can affect anyone who's not 8 year old sasuke or a sharingan user
> 
> And of course there's no panel that states that Itachi's TS will do shit to Bee after the statement *and* confirmation he's pretty much immune to Genjutsu so I guess _your_ argument didn't even exist to begin with



to read and defeat all types of gen, tai, and nin-jutsu
"Only another sharingan user with the same blood flowing in me could possibly defeat me!" ~Uchiha Itachi.

Unfortunately for you my argument is proven by that quote. Since Bee does not have the sharingan nor the Uchiha blood it would be impossible for him to defeat Itachi.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> You said only Sasuke and Madara can beat Itachi, it had everything to do with the argument.



Kishimoto said that only Sasuke and Madara could defeat Itachi.


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## kazuri (Apr 28, 2011)

> Kishimoto said that only Sasuke and Madara could defeat Itachi.



So you're saying no character in any manga, ever, has ever lied, because if a character says something, it means the writer said it, and that it is 100% true?


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> to read and defeat all types of gen, tai, and nin-jutsu
> "Only another sharingan user with the same blood flowing in me could possibly defeat me!" ~Uchiha Itachi.
> 
> Unfortunately for you my argument is proven by that quote. Since Bee does not have the sharingan nor the Uchiha blood it would be impossible for him to defeat Itachi.



Of course! Because character statements should be taken as face value even when there are no feats nor evidence to prove them right . Well i guess than since Superman has no Uchiha blood he cannot possibly be able to defeat Itachi, amiright?

Or even Pain! Who is Itachi?s superior and leader who orders him around could not possibly do it! I mean shit man, I guess that since he doesn?t have Uchiha blood all his techniques, ablates and feats are made null, void and irrelevant, right?

He gues what? Itachi *also* sated that even him and Kisame together wold not be enough totake on Jiraiya! So how does the two statemtns compare now?


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

kazuri said:


> So you're saying no character in any manga, ever, has ever lied, because if a character says something, it means the writer said it, and that it is 100% true?



No, if there is something which contradicts the character's words than that would be enough to prove the character wrong.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> He gues what? Itachi *also* sated that even him and Kisame together wold not be enough totake on Jiraiya! So how does the two statemtns compare now?



Actually Itachi stated that he, Kisame, and any amount of reinforcements would not be enough to defeat Jiraiya. 

This statement has been proven false when Pain defeated Jiraiya.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Apr 28, 2011)

Itachi is the most difficult character to defeat if you don't have sharingan or have any knowledge of his abilities. If one has 0 knowledge on his Tsukiyomi, then we can assume that character will get defeated within seconds. Even Kage level shinobi, Orochimaru was no match against Itachi's genjutsu. Not to mention, even if you have knowledge on Itachi's Tsukiyomi, and avoid eye contact to Itachi, then Itachi can still get you in Tsukiyomi since Itachi got elite jonin Kakashi Tsukiyomi'ed even though Kakashi had knowledge on it.

Tsukiyomi is Itachi's one hit kill and deadliest jutsu. Itachi has many ways to cast genjutsu, from crows and from just pointing his fingers at his opponent. Even if one avoids eye contact with Itachi to prevent getting Tsukiyomi'ed, they will be more vulnerable of getting hit by Amaterasu. This jutsu comes from the eyes, there for not paying attention to it mean they will get burnt by Amaterasu.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Actually Itachi stated that he, Kisame, and any amount of reinforcements would not be enough to defeat Jiraiya.
> 
> This statement has been proven false when Pain defeated Jiraiya.



So you admit that feats overpower character statements. Great! So, Bee's statement , which is also backed by a Genjutsu-breaking feat, should be enough to hold water on the notion he can withstand TS.

On that note, since it was Pain that proved Itachi wrong, it means that Itachi greatly underestimated his leader?s power. Take also into account Pain?s superior feats on damage output and that he defeated an opponent that Itachi said himself he could not and you have now two (even three candidates if you count J-man) that can defeat Itachi and don?t have Uchiha blood


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> So you admit that feats overpower character statements. Great! So, Bee's statement , which is also backed by a Genjutsu-breaking feat, should be enough to hold water on the notion he can withstand TS.
> 
> On that note, since it was Pain that proved Itachi wrong, it means that Itachi greatly underestimated his leader’s power. Take also into account Pain’s superior feats on damage output and that he defeated an opponent that Itachi said himself he could not and you have now two (even three candidates if you count J-man) that can defeat Itachi and don’t have Uchiha blood



Nope, as Kakashi stated it is impossible to cancel TS. Therefore Itachi would still rape Bee.

Itachi's statement in regards to Jiraiya was a lie. Itachi was well aware that he could wipe the floor with Jiraiya but chose not to because he was an ally of the leaf.


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## Chibason (Apr 28, 2011)

I'll just say this- Character statements do not always= Manga canon. 

What Itachi told Kakashi was true, mainly because he was referring to himself as the one who Kakashi couldn't defeat. 

His statement to Sasuke was for the purpose of ingraining the idea into Sasuke's mind that only he would be capable of defeating Madara. Not unlike everything else that Itachi ever told Sasuke, which was simply a way of training of him. 

I'm a huge fan of the big 3 Uchiha....but I still believe Minato pwns all.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Itachi is the most difficult character to defeat if you don't have sharingan or have any knowledge of his abilities. If one has 0 knowledge on his Tsukiyomi, then we can assume that character will get defeated within seconds.



But then wouldn?t that be deliberately placing Itachi in a situation that give [i[him[/i] advantages. As it?s stands right now, everyone in the Ninja Alliance has full knowledge of Mangekyo techniques, so I don?t see what would be the purpose of pitting him up against and opponent with no knowledge of them (other than to purposely give Itachi an easy win )



> Even Kage level shinobi, Orochimaru was no match against Itachi's genjutsu. *Not to mention, even if you have knowledge on Itachi's Tsukiyomi, and avoid eye contact to Itachi, then Itachi can still get you in Tsukiyomi since Itachi got elite jonin Kakashi Tsukiyomi'ed even though Kakashi had knowledge on it.*



Bolded is false. For two reasons. The first one is rather simple. TO use Tsukiyomi, you must use it while having Mangakyo active, Kakashi's sharingan was on "base" when the Gejutsu'd the Roots. Second, the *only* mangekyo justu Kakashi?shown so far is Kumui, and no other. A b onus reason is because the Roots where not focusing on Kakashi and didn?t know he was there, there they had no chance ot counter it. An extra bosun reason could be that even though the were Root members they are nameless _and_ face less fodder nin .



> Tsukiyomi is Itachi's one hit kill and deadliest jutsu.



His Tsukiyomi hasn't shown the ability to kill no one  It?s just shows it can knock ?em out for a extended period of time until someone normalizes their chakra flow 



> Itachi has many ways to cast genjutsu, from crows and from just pointing his fingers at his opponent.


He?s used the crow Genjutsu while on the Genjutsu battle with Sasuke, other than that the ?Corw Boddies? where bunshins 


> Even if one avoids eye contact with Itachi to prevent getting Tsukiyomi'ed, they will be more vulnerable of getting hit by Amaterasu. This jutsu comes from the eyes, there for not paying attention to it mean they will get burnt by Amaterasu.


They can also take the offensive while avoiding his eyes. Recall that when Itachi is casting Black Flames, he?s also got to close his TS eye; so they are immune to TS while he?s casting the Black Flames :crazy


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Nope, as Kakashi stated it is impossible to cancel TS. Therefore Itachi would still rape Bee.



And Itachi said the he cannot beat J-man and then said only someone with Uchiha blood can defeat him; this gives me reason to believe that character statements in this manga are contradictory. Bee said Genjutsu is useless against him and not only he said that but backed it up with a Genjutsu-breaking feat, added to that is the fact that so far nothing has contradicted that statement. TO me that tells me Bee?s word hold more weight that the self-contradictory Uchiha.



> Itachi's statement in regards to Jiraiya was a lie. Itachi was well aware that he could wipe the floor with Jiraiya but chose not to because he was an ally of the leaf.



Why do you choose to take the statement that goes against your position as lie? Because it renders you argument as invalid? Yes you are picking and choosing what Itachi says as lie or as truth. Why not compare the feats of both characters and see how a battle would play out, instead of taking what was stated and completely ignoring if it?s a contradiction to something else while also disregarding feats.


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> And *Itachi said the he cannot beat J-man* and then said only someone with Uchiha blood can defeat him; this gives me reason to believe that character statements in this manga are contradictory. Bee said Genjutsu is useless against him and not only he said that but backed it up with a Genjutsu-breaking feat, added to that is the fact that so far nothing has contradicted that statement. TO me that tells me Bee’s word hold more weight that the self-contradictory Uchiha.



Where did he say that? Provide a scan please. 



> Why do you choose to take the statement that goes against your position as lie? Because it renders you argument as invalid? Yes you are picking and choosing what Itachi says as lie or as truth. Why not compare the feats of both characters and see how a battle would play out, instead of taking what was stated and completely ignoring if it’s a contradiction to something else while also disregarding feats.



I could ask you the same question. Itachi's statement in regards to Jiriaiya was an obvious lie. There are plenty of lies that Itachi has told in order to keep Konoha safe. On the other hand there is nothing that suggests that Itachi was lying about Sasuke and Madara being the only ones capable of defeating him.


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## Chibason (Apr 28, 2011)

Itachi may have stalemated if he fought Jiraiya....but I doubt it. 

Itachi obviously avoided fighting J-man that day because he he was playing the act. Not to mention, he also knew he would risk injury to himself, Naruto and, even more importantly, Sasuke if he battled the Legendary Sennin that day, Win or No win.

Those two are *near equals*. Get over it, guys


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Where did he say that? Provide a scan please.



[/spoiler]

Here's your scan 



> I could ask you the same question. Itachi's statement in regards to Jiriaiya was an obvious lie. There are plenty of lies that Itachi has told in order to keep Konoha safe. On the other hand there is nothing that suggests that Itachi was lying about Sasuke and Madara being the only ones capable of defeating him.



Only that Itachi wasn't talking to anyone *but* Kisame when he said that. Why would he lie Kisame? I guess it must be some kind of ploy to protect the Leaf too


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

Chiba said:


> Itachi may have stalemated if he fought Jiraiya....but I doubt it.
> 
> Itachi obviously avoided fighting J-man that day because he he was playing the act. Not to mention, he also knew he would risk injury to himself, Naruto and, even more importantly, Sasuke if he battled the Legendary Sennin that day, Win or No win.
> 
> Those two are *near equals*. Get over it, guys



No, they are not. Saying that Jiraiya is Itachi's equal is the same as saying that Oro is Itachi's equal.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, they are not. Saying that Jiraiya is Itachi's equal is the same as saying that Oro is Itachi's equal.



But then wouldn't that be applying the A>B>C rule. And when i that case J-man is superior to Oro and has the knowledge that Oro didn't have when facing Itachi. On even grounds J-man is superior or at the very least equal to Itachi. Of course anyone can come up with a scenario that gives Itachit he upper hand against any opponent


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> [/spoiler]
> 
> Here's your scan



Itachi never said anything about being unable to defeat Jiraiya in that scan. Do you have another one?



> Only that Itachi wasn't talking to anyone *but* Kisame when he said that. Why would he lie Kisame? I guess it must be some kind of ploy to protect the Leaf too



Kisame was loyal to Madara and the Akatsuki. Kisame is the person who Itachi should have been most cautious around.


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## Closet Pervert (Apr 28, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Itachi got elite jonin Kakashi Tsukiyomi'ed even though Kakashi had knowledge on it.


Why do you lie? The first time Kakashi heard of Tsukiyomi was the panel of Itachi right before we see Kakashi having been Tsukiyomid. And even then he didn't hear more than the name of the jutsu and that's it's supposed to be powerful.



AKmyWaffle said:


> I could ask you the same question.


But he's not actually trying to prove that Jiraiya was stronger than Akatsuki, but questioning the OP. You are trying to prove the OP, therefore the question applies only to you, not him.



> Itachi's statement in regards to Jiriaiya was an obvious lie. There are plenty of lies that Itachi has told in order to keep Konoha safe. On the other hand there is nothing that suggests that Itachi was lying about Sasuke and Madara being the only ones capable of defeating him.


There's something: the fact that Pain, for example, was vastly more powerful than him, was his boss, and knew his moves. As for motivation, how about the fact that Itachi wanted to avoid fights except against Sasuke, and wanted Sasuke to be regarded as the hero who killed him; it would be pretty heroic to kill the bad guy no one else supposedly could. How much that means is up to you but there's _*nothing*_ more to point out Itachi was lying about not being able to defeat Jiraiya other than your wish that he was.



AKmyWaffle said:


> No, they are not. Saying that Jiraiya is Itachi's equal is the same as saying that Oro is Itachi's equal.


No it's not though maybe he was. There is an interview by Kishi where he says the Sannin were in power in relation to each other like jan ken pon.


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Itachi never said anything about being unable to defeat Jiraiya in that scan. Do you have another one?



Kisame brough up the point and Itachi agreed with it 




> Kisame was loyal to Madara and the Akatsuki. Kisame is the person who Itachi should have been most cautious around.



Of course! Kisame someone who Itachi regards as a friend! I mean he would totally lie to him about his strength because Madara doesn?t know the full extent of Itachi's abilities, amiright?


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## Chibason (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, they are not. Saying that Jiraiya is Itachi's equal is the same as saying that Oro is Itachi's equal.



That's incorrect because the outcome of each fight has to do, largely in part, with match-ups. 

Orochimaru was clearly a horrible match up for Itachi..simply Terrible!

...but Jiraiya would have fared better. I still believe Itachi would win in the end, but I don't believe J-man would get rapestomped like Oro did.


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## Chaelius (Apr 28, 2011)

>Make 4 sentence long flamebait OP
>Receive 28 pages of responses


Never change NF, never change


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

Chaelius said:


> >Make 4 sentence long flamebait OP
> >Receive 28 pages of responses
> *>????
> >Profit*
> ...



Fixed 

 It's cuz no one like Uchiha-wankers, also is amusing see them trying backing shit up with nothing but their faith and opinion and the occasional contradictory databook material and  baseless character statements


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## AKmyWaffle (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> Kisame brough up the point and Itachi agreed with it



Kisame said that Itachi could take on Jiraiya. So Itachi agreed. 



> Of course! Kisame someone who Itachi regards as a friend! I mean he would totally lie to him about his strength because Madara doesn’t know the full extent of Itachi's abilities, amiright?



Scans of Itachi regarding Kisame as a friend? They were partners. Kisame happened to be working for Akatsuki and Itachi was spying on Akatsuki. 

Itachi needed to lie to Kisame in order to keep Jiraiya alive. Had Itachi not lied than a fight would have occurred and Itachi would have had to kill Jiraiya. Remember that Itachi had already lied to Kisame about the purpose of their visit to Konoha. The purpose was to remind Danzou that Itachi was still alive, not to capture Naruto. 



Chiba said:


> That's incorrect because the outcome of each fight has to do, largely in part, with match-ups.
> 
> Orochimaru was clearly a horrible match up for Itachi..simply Terrible!
> 
> ...but Jiraiya would have fared better. I still believe Itachi would win in the end, but I don't believe J-man would get rapestomped like Oro did.



Oro had better chances against Itachi. Oro was at the very least competent and able to use genjutsu. Jiraiya on the other hand would get fucked sideways.


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## Summers (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Itachi's statement about being unable to defeat Jiraiya directly contradicts the OP. That's how, funny enough this is still on topic.



folks will forever ignore that statement.


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## butcher50 (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> [/spoiler]



don't you get the feeling of how politely modest Itachi and Kisame are about discussing this _"how well we will fare Vs. Jiraiya"_ issue ?


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Kisame said that Itachi could take on Jiraiya. So Itachi agreed.



Mayeb you didn't take time to read the scan? Or perhaps you do selective reading?  Kisame said “_with him as our enemy, even the titles Konoha’s Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist pale in comparision_” he obviously sizing himself and Itachi to Jiraiya. Bascially he’s saying their prowess doesn’t compare to someone like Jiraiya, and Itachi doesn’t disagree. How about a different scan then? obviously Kisame says that Jiraiya is more than capable of taking on both of them, again Itachi doesn’t disagree and later we see that he went out of his way to avoid conflict with J-man. That’s all the evindce that I need to say that the J-man could fight evenly with Itachi.





> Scans of Itachi regarding Kisame as a friend? They were partners. Kisame happened to be working for Akatsuki and Itachi was spying on Akatsuki.


Sure you got me there! Kisame’s Itachi’s partner and sure they are not friends. I guess the only thing I’m wrong in this debate so far is on something that is irrelevant to Itachi being unbeatable unless you’re Madara or Sauce 



> Itachi needed to lie to Kisame in order to keep Jiraiya alive. Had Itachi not lied than a fight would have occurred and Itachi would have had to kill Jiraiya. Remember that Itachi had already lied to Kisame about the purpose of their visit to Konoha. The purpose was to remind Danzou that Itachi was still alive, not to capture Naruto.



Proff that Kisame would’ve forced a fighting if he knew Itachi could beat J-man please. As far as we’ve seen Kisame has no trouble being ordered around by Itachi. Remember also that the true leader of Akatsuki, the person Itachi’s scheming against (Madara in case you’ve forgotten) is well aware of Itachi’s abilities and powers and can make statements regarding the growth of the Uchiha siblings (like who will surpass who and whatnot). There’s no reason for Itachi to avoid a conflict with Jiraiya if he could’ve gotten an easy win or rape-stomped him (like he did to Kakashi). Plus theirs is no indication of Itachi was there to remind Danzo he was still around (that mofo knew that already, he dind’t need a reminder! I mean is Danzo we’re talking about for Christ’s sake!) Rather I’d say he wanted to give the Sauce an extra push to get sum power.


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## butcher50 (Apr 28, 2011)

ELT said:


> Mayeb you didn't take time to read the scan? Or perhaps you do selective reading?  Kisame said “_with him as our enemy, even the titles Konoha’s Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist pale in comparision_” he obviously sizing himself and Itachi to Jiraiya. Bascially he’s saying their prowess doesn’t compare to someone like Jiraiya, and Itachi doesn’t disagree. How about a different scan then? obviously Kisame says that Jiraiya is more than capable of taking on both of them, again Itachi doesn’t disagree and later we see that he went out of his way to avoid conflict with J-man. That’s all the evindce that I need to say that the J-man could fight evenly with Itachi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



and then Kishi went out of his way to retcon this all into a: '_i took a short visit back to the leaf to just remind those old twats that *"I'm still alive you old fuckers. so don't touch my sauce"*_


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## PinkiePool (Apr 28, 2011)

butcher50 said:


> and then Kishi went out of his way to retcon this all into a: '_i took a short visit back to the leaf to just remind those old twats that *"I'm still alive you old fuckers"*_



Of course but does that change the fact that Itachi purposely avoided conflict with Jiraiya or that really at the end of the little encounter he was pretty much so out of chakra his sharingan reverted to normal eyes?


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## Yondaime (Apr 28, 2011)

Well, this thread has gone on far enough. Not only is it going in circles, but now it's off topic.

Locking.


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