# Rank These People (Kage)



## Rob (Mar 19, 2014)

Though I feel like I have a general idea of how to rank them (Probably not) I want to hear what the NBD thinks.... 

Rank these people, 
-Gaara
-Onoki
-Ay
-Mei
-Danzo 

Once this list is made, feel free to throw in, 
-Muu
-Raikaugernaut
-Trollkage
-Tsunade
-4th Kazekage

If you want, these too , 
-Hiruzen
-Tobirama
-Yagura (?) 
-3rd Kazekage (?) 

If possible, try to separate them into groups, where their strength is roughly the same... if that makes sense.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Mar 19, 2014)

Muu
Ohnoki
Raikagenaut(Or however you spell it)

Trollkage/Gaara/Ay
Tsunade
Danzo
Mei/4th Kazekage

My list is jacked up oh well.


----------



## Rob (Mar 19, 2014)

I recall, some time ago, people arguing that Mei could beat Ay. 
I'm unsure myself, but I would have guessed that Ay would win that one.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 19, 2014)

1.Hashirama

2. Minato

3. Tobirama
4. 3rd Raikage/4th Raikage
5. Danzou
6. Muu/2nd Mizukage
7. Oonoki
8. Yagura
9. Tsunade

10. 3rd Kazekage
11. Gaara
12. 4th Kazekage
13. Hiruzen
14. Mei


----------



## Bonly (Mar 19, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Though I feel like I have a general idea of how to rank them (Probably not) I want to hear what the NBD thinks....
> 
> Rank these people,
> -Gaara
> ...



Out of the first group I'd say:

Onoki
Gaara
Mei/A
Danzo

Although Danzo could moved up a few spots if he has Koto.

Out of the second group I'd say:

Muu/French Dude
Sandaime Raikage/Tsunade
Yondaime Kazekage


Out of the third group I'd say:

Tobi
Yagura
Hiruzen
Sandaime Kazekage

And ranked in one whole list:

Muu/French Dude/Tobi
Onoki
Gaara
Sandaime Raikage/Tsunade
Mei/A
Danzo(no Koto)

Yondaime Kazekage
Yagura
Hiruzen
Sandaime Kazekage


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 19, 2014)

Hashirama 
Minato 
Tobirama 
Muu 
Second Mizukage 
Third Raikage 
Onoki 
A 
Gaara 
Hiruzen
Tsunade 
Danzo
Mei 
4th Kazekage

Note - These rankings are based on the characters overall abilities,,, as it could be possible for someone below the other to beat the one whose higher


----------



## Cognitios (Mar 19, 2014)

*Kage list*

God

*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Hashirama - Sage Mode, Most Chakra in a person without a Bijuu we've seen, and his chakra dwarves some who even have Bijuu, and Mokuton, just too much for anyone else to keep up. Hashirama is where he should be the top.
- Defeated Full Kurama with EMS Madara

2. BM Minato - Hirashin, Sage Mode, Bijuu Mode, and probably the fastest ninja to ever exist. This guy summons Death Gods, and is one of the best sealers in the series. Not to mention his chakra makes him an absolute beast, second only to Hashirama. 
- About the level of BM Naruto




Demi-God

*Spoiler*: __ 



3.. Tobirama - The Father of some of the most OP justu in existence, Edo Tensei and Hirashin, not to mention he founded Shadow Clones, has probably the best suitons of anyone besides Kisame, and has chakra second to alive Hashirama, Naruto, BM Minato, and Madara only. 
-Was said to be at EMS Madara level

4. Minato - Hirashin, Sage Mode, Death Gods, and Sealing. While he lacks in pure offensive power, he makes up in his ability to land hits, which are second to none.
- Approximately at about Rinnegan Obito Level, a bit higher. 

5. Sandaime Raikage - Most Stamina for any non-clan member IMO, Best durability besides any Juubi-Jins, Knows Black lightning, has an uber defense and offense, with speed and strength to back it up. Not to mention Raiton technqiues.
-Above A



High Kage

*Spoiler*: __ 



6. Gaara - Pure Sand Manipulation, Sealing, Massive Aoe effects. Not to mention his chakra is one of the highest in the series. One of the best long range fighters in the series. Can make almost everywhere a battlefield he controls. At a level where he can be in Juubidara's presence and not be obliterated, can actually harm him too.
-Above Nidaime Mizukage and about the level of Health Itachi.

7. Ay - Speed, Strength, Stamina, and Ration Taijutsu. The guy is great and able to blitz almost everyone but the best of the best.
-Weaker than his Dad and Killer Bee, A bit weaker than Minato, but about the level of Gaara and Onoki


8. Muu - Sensing, Invisibility, and Splitting, those are OP in itself, add in Jinton and he is OP
-About the level of Nidaime Mizukage, A little above Onoki

9. Nidaime Mizukage - The only Kage to use Genjutsu, Jokey Boy can be used when he is on the weakened, not to mention he has a very versatile fighting style.
-Weaker than Gaara, about the level of Muu

10. Onoki - Jinton, Flight, Doton, and Weight Altering Techniques, with Flight. A valuable support character, Long range and close range, overall well balanced.
-Weaker than Muu, but not by much.

11. Hiruzen - The only person to master all 5 elements without cheating, a boss summon which can shapeshift into a weapon for him. While he doesn't have the chakra of his fellow hokage, he makes up with it for his versatility, his ability to analyze and his chakra control.
-At about the level of Kakashi without Kamui




Mid Kage

*Spoiler*: __ 



12. Tsunade - The Physically Strongest Kage, She can regenerate after being stabbed by Susanoo Swords, she can be the best support character when it comes to healing, and she has immense Stamina. 
-About the level of J-Man and Orochimaru.

13. Yagura - A Perfect Jinjuriki with presumably massive chakra levels. He can change into Sanbi, we don't know much about him.
- I'd put him as a weaker Killer Bee.14.

Danzou - Invinsibility for 11 minutes, the best genjutsu in the series, a Boss summon, powerful fuutons, and cursed seals. While not the best when it comes to outright firepower, he can make up with his his plenty of combat support techniques.
-About the level of MS weakened Sasuke.





Low Kage

*Spoiler*: __ 




15. Mei - Two Kekkai Genkai she is a long range fighter who can utilize Boil, Lava, Water, Fire, and Earth Elements to their fullest potential. 
- About the level of Heibi Sasuke

16. 3rd Kazekage - Magnet Release with Iron Sand, all we really know about him, except he was stronger than the 4th Kazekage. 
-Weaker than Sasori, but stronger than Yondaime Kazekage

17. 4th Kazekage - Magnet Release with Gold Dust, he was fodderized by Gaara, but was strong enough to subdue the Shukaku.
-Weaker than Gaara, Stronger than full power Shukaku


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Mar 19, 2014)

Hiruzen-Tsunade-Tobirama-Oonoki-Muu
Gaara-raikage-trollkage-kazekage-raikage-kazekage
Danzo-Mei


----------



## The Undying (Mar 19, 2014)

1. Hashirama 
2. Minato, Tobirama and vigorous Hiruzen
3. Muu, Nidaime Mizukage and Sandaime Raikage 
4. Onoki, Ey and Tsunade 
5. Mei, Gaara and Danzou
6. Yondaime Kazekage
?. Yagura and Sandaime Kazekage


----------



## Turrin (Mar 20, 2014)

Depends what type of ranking your looking for. Because feats reflect something very different than what the statements & portrayal have indicated. 

For example by feats Mu is one of the most broken fighters in the entire manga since his invisibility Jutsu and splitting is so hard to counter. So broken in-fact that he could even beat Minato if he used these abilities wisely enough. However by statements and portrayal he met his match in the form of Nindaime-Mizukage, and Minato's hype as well as accomplishments in the war are vastly superior. I mean Mu's got nothing on Minato's display against Obito, Kurama, or even Juubi/Juubi-Jins. So I think Kishi considers Mu to be around Mizukage's level, while he considers a character like Minato  superior to Mu, but he gave Mu such a broken ability that feat-wise an argument can be made for Mu being able to beat him. If the battle happened in the manga Kishi would probably just have Minato pull out some technique to counter, but in the NBD most people won't accept that argument, as many only think about feats.

It's kind of the same issue for Old-Hiruzen. According to the manga Old-Hiruzen is suppose to be stronger than any of the other old Gokage and Kishi currently sees nothing wrong with Old-Hiruzen [weakened further as an Oro Tensei] being able to hold back Shin-SuuSenju/Spiral or Old-Hiruzen leading the charge and holding back 100% Kurama. But Hiruzen's feats don't translate very well into the NBD, as his fighting style is primarily predicated on him pulling out specific Jutsu from his massive poll specific to the situation he is currently in, which unlike most other fighters whose hax is universally good. Not to mention being the least plot-relevant Hokage he is getting the least amount of panel time. So by feats Gokage like Yagura, Onoki, even debatably Gaara out-perform Old-Hiruzen have better feats to discuss in the NBD

Tobirama also creates problems, because while I think by portrayal/hype he is suppose to be one of the strongest Kages ever, his feats aren't quite up to that standard, as he suffers from both the fact that he's not as relevant as other Hokages, it being difficult for Kishi to display his Edo-Tensei, and the fact that Kishi has never found the right instance to demonstrate Tobirama's full power; the best we get is his "near" full-power as an Oro-Tensei.

I feel as if Sandaime-Raikage also suffers a bit as well. From hype/portrayal we know he held off a 10,000 strong army for, what was it 3 days!? And we know he stalemated the Hachibi. Both of which should place him quite high, but his spare panel time,  never showing Black-Lighting, which apparently was one of his signature Jutsu, being brought back w/o the Amber-Sealing-Jar, and getting a poor display simply because he went up against this manga's Mary-Sue-Modo [Sennin Modo] hurts him in the feats department.

Sandaime-Kazekage. Same deal, by portrayal/feats he's suppose to be the strongest of the 4-Past Kazekages by far, but he's hurt by his only feats being as Sasori's puppet, and that Sasori some-how killed him, and without Kishi bothering to give us the specifics that seems to limit his powers/feats to a level that Sasori [less the Kazekage-Puppet] could deal with. Though in reality there was probably some foul-play on Sasori's part. 

Danzo suffers from us never getting to see him use Koto in battle; and Koto being ill-defined in general. As well as Danzo's Mokuton abilities and Bijuu control abilities being glossed over. Though in reality the author seems to rate Danzo abilities very highly based on the hype/portrayal they have received throughout the manga.

Etc....

So it's like should I go off Feats or Portrayal/Hype/Statements? Both lists would look much different



> I recall, some time ago, people arguing that Mei could beat Ay.
> I'm unsure myself, but I would have guessed that Ay would win that one.


Imo, Ei really is the weakest. Ei gets overrated because he performed well against an MS-User and that is thee only reason people put him so high on their list. In-reality Ei's been extremely underwhelming. His arsenal is limited to CQC only, and even than the dude's physical attacks leave much to be desired considering pretty much every Kage can defend against them, same thing with his durability, almost any Kage can get past that. The only thing EI really has going for him is his speed, but even in that regard he isn't nearly dominating enough in that regard anymore for that to keep him afloat alone. Nor does his intelligence really stand-out as anything special ether. 

At least with Mei her moves have greater offensive might and she has a great degree of versatility, while her Demonic Mist, Producing Youton From her Body, Defensive Suitons, and Acid Mist, make her nearly as good defensively as Ei anyway; arguably better in certain instances.Though grant Mei is still very much the second weakest Kage from her display; though she is another one where the plot may not completely reflect the true scope of her abilities feat-wise.

With that said if someone put Ei one spot ahead of Mei, It wouldn't be a ridiculous error in logic and is certainly an understandable view point. Though people put Ei as one of the strongest Kage is utterly laughable. Ei's father Sandaime Raikage is far better than Ei in every regard, except perhaps speed where Ei might have a small edge, and Sandaime Raikage himself while much higher up than Ei still isn't one of the best.


----------



## Vice (Mar 20, 2014)

Tobirama

Danzo
Muu
Trollkage
Raikagenaut

Onoki
Gaara
A

Yagura
Tsunade
Hiruzen
Mei
4th Kazekage
3rd Kazekage


----------



## DaVizWiz (Mar 20, 2014)

I agree with Turrin that there is inconsistency in rankings.

Danzo's Koto obviously makes him one of the strongest 1v1 characters, with that being said, he would be fodderized against an army of marginally-talented chunin (Alliance). While Gaara, on the other hand, would bury the same army casually.

When ranking I do take power into consideration, but IMO _versatility_ puts you higher on a tier list.

This sums up my philosophy on power rankings:


> *His arsenal is limited to CQC only*, and even than the dude's physical attacks leave much to be desired considering pretty much every Kage can defend against them, same thing with his durability, almost any Kage can get past that.


Lacking versatility drops your value a great deal.


----------



## Vice (Mar 20, 2014)

Although characters can be ranked by their general strength, the problem lies in the fact that Naruto is more about match ups than power levels.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 20, 2014)

I just go by general efficacy against other shinobi and try to balance that out with other factors such as in-character tendencies and how easily they can reach their peak.

For example, I ranked Yagura below Danzou and the 2nd Mizukage *not* because I think they can beat the Sanbi, but because I think they can probably kill Yagura before he can go full Bijuu. Granted, we still know next to nothing about Yagura, so there's a very good chance I'm dead wrong about that. But you get the point.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 20, 2014)

Vice said:


> Although characters can be ranked by their general strength, the problem lies in the fact that Naruto is more about match ups than power levels.


The problem with this is that Kishi doesn't stay true to match ups. 

In theory someone like Kabuto should have been able to counter everything Itachi had, but than Kishi just has Itachi pull out a new Jutsu to bypass this and allow Itachi/Sasuke to win against Kabuto. So Kishi kind of manifests whatever abilities he wants a Shinobi to have, to fit the power-levels he has in his mind.

Another example is Naruto/Sasuke vs Juubito where Juubito should have been a great counter to Ninjutsu heavy characters like those 2, yet Kishi then had Senjutsu gain the power to bypass Juubito's Ninjutsu immunity. 

Another type of example is demonstrated in this recent chapter where 8th-Gate allows Gai to duke it out with Juubidara. Most people before recent events thought 8th Gate would make Gai more powerful, but they still thought he'd stay around Kakashi-level or some-what above, no one thought he'd become stronger than Hashirama. But Kishi stayed true to Part I-Statements of 8th-Gate Gai strength and made Gai become that strong. 

This makes me believe that portrayal/statements have a better chance of being correct than any type of calculations or simulations based on feats, no matter how unbiased one approaches such.


----------



## Rob (Mar 20, 2014)

I always thought Onoki would be very close to the top. 

I'll read through your posts later.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 20, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Rank these people,
> -Gaara
> -Onoki
> -Ay
> ...



Onoki
Gaara 
Mei
Ei
Danzou



> -Muu
> -Raikaugernaut
> -Trollkage
> -Tsunade
> -4th Kazekage



Sandaime Raikage
Tsunade
Muu/Nidaime Mizukage
Yondaime Kazekage



> -Hiruzen
> -Tobirama
> -Yagura
> -3rd Kazekage



Tobirama
Yagura
Sandaime Kazekage
Hiruzen​​


----------



## Turrin (Mar 20, 2014)

Well haven't hear whether OP wants Feats or Portrayal [Hype, Statements, Etc..] but I'm bored so I'll do both:

*Portrayal List*

1. Hiruzen 

2. Hashirama 

3. Minato 

4. Danzo

5. Tobirama

6. Onoki or Sandaime Raikage

7. Onoki or Sandaime Raikage

8.  Mu or Nindiame Mizukage or Yagura

9. Mu or Nindiame Mizukage or Yagura

10. Mu or Nindaime Mizukage or Yagura

11. Tsunade or Gaara or Sandaime Kazekage

12. Tsunade or Gaara or Sandaime Kazekage

13. Tsunade or Gaara or Sandaime Kazekage

14. Yondaime Kazekage or Mei or Ei

15. Yondaime Kazekage or Mei or Ei

16. Yondaime Kazekage or Mei or Ei

*Feats List*

1. Hashirama

2. Minato

3. Danzo 

4. Mu 

5. Onoki

6. Tobirama

7. Nindaime Mizukage

8. Yagura

9. Sandaime Raikage

10. Old Hiruzen 

11. Tsunade 

12. Gaara

13. Yondaime Kazekage

14. Mei

15. Ei

16. Sandaime Kazekage

There you go.


----------



## Cognitios (Mar 20, 2014)

> Well haven't hear whether OP wants Feats or Portrayal [Hype, Statements, Etc..] but I'm bored so I'll do both:
> 
> Portrayal List
> 
> ...



I agree with this mostly except for a few things.
Why is Hiruzen so high on portrayal? I mean yeah, he was hyped back in part one, but now Madara Uchiha been wanking Hashirama more than Transcendent Shinobi wanks Minato.
I can imagine him being 2nd, but not above Hashirama, who has had the same hype, but more recently and by more people.
Also why is Tobirama lower than Danzou? Danzou should be 1 lower than Tobirama, purely with hype Tobirama is on alive Madara level, not to mention Danzou really doesn't have much Hype. Tobirama on the other hand has fastest shinobi besides Minato, creater of half the techniques in the series and the Senju shit to back him up.
Everything else in the portrayal looks good to me.
The Feats:
I'd put Ei higher than Mei, he's just had more time to shine than her. Mei is a joke featwise compared to the other GoKage.
Yondaime Kazekage Higher than Mei and Ei? You're underestimating them. Yondaime Kazekage was fodderized by Gaara. He has almost no feats but controlling gold dust, which had almost no power.
Old Hiruzen? Better than Gaara? 
Danzou is way too high on feats. He only has genjutsu and iganazi, everything else on him sucks. his Fuutons are subpar and his would be fodderized  by half the people on this list.
Why is Nidaime Mizukage Higher than Gaara when Gaara beat him canonically?
A lot of issues with your feats imo.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 20, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> I agree with this mostly except for a few things.
> Why is Hiruzen so high on portrayal? I mean yeah, he was hyped back in part one, but now Madara Uchiha been wanking Hashirama more than Transcendent Shinobi wanks Minato.


The 8th-Gate stuff from the recent chapters, tells me that Kishi has not forgotten about Part I-Statements. It also takes away most of the arguments that have been made against Prime-Hiruzen's potential to fight at a level beyond Hashirama. Heck Prime Hiruzen could possible even have the 8th-Gate himself. He was called the strongest and therefore I go with that until Kishimoto says otherwise.



> I can imagine him being 2nd, but not above Hashirama, who has had the same hype, but more recently and by more people.


Hashirama doesn't have the same hype. No one has outright called him the strongest Hokage as was the case with Prime-Hiruzen.



> Also why is Tobirama lower than Danzou? Danzou should be 1 lower than Tobirama, purely with hype Tobirama is on alive Madara level, not to mention Danzou really doesn't have much Hype. Tobirama on the other hand has fastest shinobi besides Minato, creater of half the techniques in the series and the Senju shit to back him up.


Where is it indicated that Tobirama is on EMS-Madara level? I don't recall anything like that from the manga. Tobirama has a great deal of hype and good portrayal, but Danzo's is better, due to the extreme hype Kishimoto has placed on Danzo's abilities.

Kotoamatsukami and Izanagi have been hyped and outright stated to be the best Illusions in the manga [bar Mugen-Tsukuyomi, which so far no one has been able to cast]. Itachi was amazed Sasuke managed to survive against an Izanagi users and Kotoamatsukami was coveted by some of the strongest characters in the entire manga [Kabuto and Obito]. 

Beyond that even Obito hypes Danzo's ocular abilities combined with Senju DNA to be so good that he should be able to control the strongest of the Bijuu, besides Juubi, Kurama. 

Plus Danzo would have defeat MS-Sasuke even w/o Koto if not for Sasuke receiving aid from Karin, that speaks volumes about Danzo's abilities, when Kotoamatsukami is one of his strongest abilities according to the author. I could go on, but really Danzo has simply been hyped and potrayed better than Tobirama.



> I'd put Ei higher than Mei, he's just had more time to shine than her. Mei is a joke featwise compared to the other GoKage.


Mei has better feats than Ei as she actually has versatility, something Ei sorely lacks. Though if you were to put Ei above Mei by one spot I wouldn't call it outlandish. I just think Ei's one-dimensional fighting style makes him the easiest Kage to combat.



> Yondaime Kazekage Higher than Mei and Ei? You're underestimating them. Yondaime Kazekage was fodderized by Gaara. He has almost no feats but controlling gold dust, which had almost no power.


Feat-wise Ei would fair worse than Yondaime Kazekage, as Gaara could just fly away and Ei would be helpless to do anything to him; Yondaime Kazekage could casually counter Ei the same way. Mei it's debatable, but Yondaime Kazekage's Gold Dust Tsunami would probably cause other shinobi more difficulty than anything Mei is packing considering it's size and scope. Let's also not forget that part of Gaara's feats against Yondaime Kazekage benefit from him fighting in the desert.



> Old Hiruzen? Better than Gaara?


Old Hiruzen being able to make 4KB, means 5 Hiruzen's wielding Shiki Fuujin. This on-top of his massive 5 Elemental Jutsu. Yeah He's better than Gaara featwise.



> Danzou is way too high on feats. He only has genjutsu and iganazi, everything else on him sucks. his Fuutons are subpar and his would be fodderized by half the people on this list.


His Fuuton blew through Stage 3-Susano'o, so hardly sub-par.

But he doesn't need anything beyond his Genjtusu. Izanagi to respawn into someones face right there w/ Kotoamatsukami, is more than enough to GG almost every character. Quite honestly it so OP that even characters higher than him could loose to him.



> Why is Nidaime Mizukage Higher than Gaara when Gaara beat him canonically?


Gaara had a number of advantages. Onoki's help, fighting in the desert, his father's gold dust, intel, and he happens to be a good match for the Mizukage with motion detection the one confirmed method to find the clam.

Gaara very well may be higher than i'm giving him credit for on both lists, but Kishi hasn't yet given him the type of portrayal that would be indicative of such imo. Doesn't mean he won't in the future though, as Gaara clearly has potential he has yet to unlock, which was the point of the Nindaime Mizukage battle


----------



## Rocky (Mar 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> *Feats List*
> 
> 1. Hashirama
> 
> ...




Old Hiruzen shouldn't be above Tsunade & Raikage on a feat list imo.

Also, Yagura shouldn't be above Sandaime Raikage unless you're assuming he would get trolled by Yagura's mirror. Thing is, Sandaime doesn't have to use 1 Finger Nukite to kill Yagura.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Mar 20, 2014)

Hashirama
--
Minato w/ Kyuubi
--
Minato/Tobirama/2nd Mizukage
3rd Raikage/4th Raikage/Muu
Danzou/Oonoki
--
Tsunade/Gaara/Edo Hiruzen
4th Kazekage
Hiruzen
Mei


----------



## Turrin (Mar 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Old Hiruzen shouldn't be above Tsunade & Raikage on a feat list imo.
> 
> Also, Yagura shouldn't be above Sandaime Raikage unless you're assuming he would get trolled by Yagura's mirror. Thing is, Sandaime doesn't have to use 1 Finger Nukite to kill Yagura.


Dude Ei is the most universally exploitable character [among the kages] feat-wise, do to his 1-dimensional fighting style. If the match doesn't start at CQC, and the enemy has a good Long-Mid game, Ei is going to have an uphill or downright impossible battle, and that is against characters that are not even Kage-class. I mean for fucks sake, I don't even know how Ei would beat Sai, if the match started at long-range, that's how restrictive Ei's move-set is, feat wise, which is just sad.

Edit: Plus his offense outside of speed is very lack lust as well, so if the enemy has any kind of higher order defensive Jutsu, durability, or regen, Ei is also going to fight an uphill or impossible battle. He also lacks any form of sensory detections or Jutsu that would help draw out the enemy, so if the enemy has decent stealth capabilities, again he's fighting an uphill or impossible battle. 

Edit 2: Ei also performs poorly against AOE attacks, considering his inability to escape the area when Sasuke brought the roof down w/ Susano'o. And even in CQC Ei's inconsistent usage of his top speed, makes him much less dominating than he might otherwise be. 

I'm sorry to say but Ei kind of sucks; feat-wise.

Hiruzen has a much less restrictive move-set than Ei's, and 5 Hiruzen's wielding Shiki Fuujin is extremely hax on-top of that. That's why his feats are better than Tsunade and much much better than Ei's.

Why is Sandaime better than Yagura based purely on feats? Yagura has some really solid feats; Hax-Mirror, V2 where if he touches you he can seal your movements w/ Coral, Full-Bijuu form w/ Bijuudama and fat-roll-amattack.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Mar 20, 2014)

I'd argue Ei can dodge virtually anything that's coming from a distance that's out of his jumping reach. Until his opponent runs out of chakra due to his bijuu reserves.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 20, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> I'd argue Ei can dodge virtually anything that's coming from a distance that's out of his jumping reach. Until his opponent runs out of chakra due to his bijuu reserves.


Why would someone just waste all their chakra. People aren't that stupid. They'd just kick back in the air, rest, etc... while Ei would have to keep pumping his shroud as otherwise he exposes openings w/o it. So if anything Ei would run out of chakra first, despite having the much larger supply.

Not to mention Ei evading everything, is completely unsubstantiated by the manga. Any attack that has a large AOE and >= speed than the Kage summit roof collapsing, Ei can't avoid, according to feats. This is not even getting into any kind of trickery that his enemy could employ to hit Ei or the fact that Ei usually starting in Base or R1, also gives his enemy many openings in the beginning.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Mar 20, 2014)

> Why would someone just waste all their chakra. People aren't that stupid. They'd just kick back in the air, rest, etc... while Ei would have to keep pumping his shroud as otherwise he exposes openings w/o it. So if anything Ei would run out of chakra first, despite having the much larger supply.


Ei can switch between base and V1 whenever he wants, he doesn't need to maintain it [1] 



> Not to mention Ei evading everything, is completely unsubstantiated by the manga. Any attack that has a large AOE and >= speed than the Kage summit roof collapsing, Ei can't avoid, according to feats. This is not even getting into any kind of trickery that his enemy could employ to hit Ei or the fact that Ei usually starting in Base or R1, also gives his enemy many openings in the beginning.


Ei can be tricked but not everyone uses trickery IC. Ei didn't attempt to avoid the roof falling on him.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> In theory someone like Kabuto should have been able to counter everything Itachi had, but than Kishi just has Itachi pull out a new Jutsu to bypass this and allow Itachi/Sasuke to win against Kabuto.



Eh...no.

Itachi had no intel while Kabuto had near-full, and Itachi was not allowed to use killing force while Kabuto was.

Itachi already had the tools to beat Kabuto...he just wasn't allowed to use them and didn't know the exact counters (like Amaterasu negating Muki Tensei).

Of course, your basic point is true; Kishi is the author so it is within his power to alter the canon and introduce new material, which we have no way of anticipating.

Still, we're talking about what is--not what could be.






Putting that aside, holy fuck why is the 4th Raikage at the bottom of your list.

Nevermind. Just never fucking mind.

I can't.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Dude Ei is the most universally exploitable character [among the kages] feat-wise, do to his 1-dimensional fighting style. If the match doesn't start at CQC, and the enemy has a good Long-Mid game, Ei is going to have an uphill or downright impossible battle, and that is against characters that are not even Kage-class. I mean for fucks sake, I don't even know how Ei would beat Sai, if the match started at long-range, that's how restrictive Ei's move-set is, feat wise, which is just sad.




It's a good thing Raikage has an absolutely gargantuan speed advantage on a good majority of the verse and can close a large distance without issue.

I don't know why I'm bothering with a response to "how does he beat Sai." I used to think you were more intelligent than that. He beats Sai by flickering up to him and breaking him in half. Alternatively, he avoids everything Sai tries until Sai drops dead. Raikage has a multiple tier advantage in speed & stamina.



> Edit: Plus his offense outside of speed is very lack lust as well, so if the enemy has any kind of higher order defensive Jutsu, durability, or regen, Ei is also going to fight an uphill or impossible battle. He also lacks any form of sensory detections or Jutsu that would help draw out the enemy, so if the enemy has decent stealth capabilities, again he's fighting an uphill or impossible battle.




Ei can cut through something with his own durability, and there are very few things (not counting top tiers) that exceed that. 

On the flip side, I have seen very few Kage demonstrate a counter to body flickers that miss Minato & KCM Naruto by inches. If the Kage lacks a Jutsu on the speed tier of Hiraishin or "Flash Shunshin," they will fail to use it before the Raikage has successfully completed his blitz....unless the fight starts at some obscene distance. 



> Edit 2: Ei also performs poorly against AOE attacks, considering his inability to escape the area when Sasuke brought the roof down w/ Susano'o. And even in CQC Ei's inconsistent usage of his top speed, makes him much less dominating than he might otherwise be.



There was nowhere to really run to. Sauce brought down the entire ceiling. Regardless, Ei knew he could tank some falling rocks anyway.



> I'm sorry to say but Ei kind of sucks; feat-wise.




That would be Hiruzen.



> Hiruzen has a much less restrictive move-set than Ei's, and 5 Hiruzen's wielding Shiki Fuujin is extremely hax on-top of that. That's why his feats are better than Tsunade and much much better than Ei's.




Alive Hiruzen can barley use Shadow Clones......



> Why is Sandaime better than Yagura based purely on feats? Yagura has some really solid feats; Hax-Mirror, V2 where if he touches you he can seal your movements w/ Coral, Full-Bijuu form w/ Bijuudama and fat-roll-amattack.




Well, the Sandaime Raikage would beat Yagura. That was my point.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 21, 2014)

Has this thread seriously come to the Raikage vs. Sai?

We need to just...stop.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I mean for fucks sake, I don't even know how Ei would beat Sai, if the match started at long-range, that's how restrictive Ei's move-set is, feat wise, which is just sad.



Yep.

This is going in my sig for a while.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> It's a good thing Raikage has an absolutely gargantuan speed advantage on a good majority of the verse and can close a large distance without issue.


- Ei only has that large advantage your talking about if he uses his top speed Shunshin. His usage of which is not consistent

- Ei has no feats of covering a large distance as quickly as your proposing he can.



> I don't know why I'm bothering with a response to "how does he beat Sai." I used to think you were more intelligent than that.


Listen I don't think Kishi would ever have Sai beat Ei. However by feats, with the right conditions [good-starting distance], it's hard to see how Ei wins. This is because Ei has no mid-long range Jutsu to target Sai with once Sai starts flying on his Ink bird.




> He beats Sai by flickering up to him and breaking him in half.


Honestly you shouldn't be a dick about someone elses intelligence and than purpose that Ei can fly [or outright teleport] w/ Shunshin, which is utter nonsense and Ei has absolutely no feats to support it.



> Alternatively, he avoids everything Sai tries until Sai drops dead.


Why would Sai waste his chakra to the point of dropping dead. We've literally never seen anyone do that unless is was to protect someone else. Sai would just rest on his bird every time he got low on chakra. And he wouldn't bother to keep using useless attacks; he start using trickery with Ink Bushin/Animals or start using making an army of exploding Ink birds to bomb the entire battlefield. Whether ether would hit Ei or not, IDK, but I know for sure that Ei isn't hitting flying-Sai, based on feats.



> Raikage has a multiple tier advantage in speed & stamina.


It doesn't matter if Ei can't hit a flying enemy.



> Ei can cut through something with his own durability, and there are very few things (not counting top tiers) that exceed that.


What are you talking about. Most of Ei's attacks were defended by the weakest variant of Susano'o. It took Ei's best blows to break through it, but not even kill the user [Sasuke]. Than Ei's blows proved completely in effective against any Susano'o variant higher than the weakest on. Beyond that Base-B was clashing evenly with Ei's blows and eventually even overpowered Ei; again this is Base-B were talking about. Where are you getting the idea from that Ei's physical attacks are some amazing offense, that beats out most "top-tiers" [whatever the heck Top-Tier means too you].



> On the flip side, I have seen very few Kage demonstrate a counter to body flickers that miss Minato & KCM Naruto by inches. If the Kage lacks a Jutsu on the speed tier of Hiraishin or "Flash Shunshin," they will fail to use it before the Raikage has successfully completed his blitz....unless the fight starts at some obscene distance.


This assumes that the match starts at less than 5m and Ei's begins the battle with his top-speed Shunshin attack. The former of these conditions require the creation of a match that is extremely Biased-towards EI, and the latter of these conditions require Ei being totally OOC, as he has never opted to use top speed Shunshin before his enemy had a chance to do anything.



> There was nowhere to really run to. Sauce brought down the entire ceiling.


Your telling me that Ei can cover ridiculous distances before a single person can use a Jutsu, but he couldn't escape to another room; please spare me the BS..

There is blatant path way Ei could have taken to escape into another room:
2

Sasuke was also able to use Susano'o to throw Karin out of the way in time, and while Karin might have been further away from the collapsing ceiling, this shouldn't have matter to if he was as infallible in dodging Jutsu as you claim.



> Regardless, Ei knew he could tank some falling rocks anyway.


So Ei's going to try and tank every attack, he thinks won't effect him. If so that makes him exposes many openings. Plus even if he was confident in the rocks not hitting him with anything dangerous it exposes openings for Sasuke to attack him or others, which again makes him moronic if he decided to let the ceiling fall on him.



> That would be Hiruzen.


All 5 Elements and 5 Hiruzen utilizing Shiki Fuujin, one of the most broken Jutsu in the manga. Sorry, but your being dishonest and you know it.



> Alive Hiruzen can barley use Shadow Clones......


This is based on nothing. All that was stated is Alive Hiruzen can't use as many Shadow-Clones as in his prime. And Edos do not have more stamina than the original, if anything they have less because Oro brought them back at less than full power. Their stamina simply regens faster. But that
s not effecting how many clones Hiruzen can use at any given time



> Well, the Sandaime Raikage would beat Yagura. That was my point.


Sandaime Raikage beating Yagura is about as likely as Yagura beating Sandaime based on feats, considering like you, yourself noted Mirror can troll Sandaime hard. However who has the better feats isn't determined solely by how they would perform against each other, but by how they would perform against the Shinobi world at large.

With that said I don't really care about "feats" that much any more, because the author has made it clear he doesn't care ether and will just give shinobi whatever he wants to fit their power-level. So i'm more concerned with portrayal, and by portrayal Sandaime > Yagura. So if you want to say Sandaime's feats are better, I don't really care that much.



Lawrence777 said:


> Ei can switch between base and V1 whenever he wants, he doesn't need to maintain it [1]


Entering the mode quickly is not the same thing as entering the mode seamlessly, and therefore switching back and forth is still going to expose openings.



> Ei can be tricked but not everyone uses trickery IC. Ei didn't attempt to avoid the roof falling on him.


I don't see any evidence that Ei decided to just let the roof fall on him. But if he is willing to let shit hit him, than that opens up even worse openings in his defenses.




Nikushimi said:


> Eh...no.
> 
> Itachi had no intel while Kabuto had near-full, and Itachi was not allowed to use killing force while Kabuto was.
> 
> Itachi already had the tools to beat Kabuto...he just wasn't allowed to use them and didn't know the exact counters (like Amaterasu negating Muki Tensei).


I'm not going to engage in this nonsense about Itachi being able to beat Sennin Modo Kabuto, again, if he had killer intent. Because it's simply not true and even you know that. It also in no way reflects the point i'm trying to make that on paper Kabuto had everything he need to counter Itachi's moveset, yet the author gave him something new that could be effective, so Sasuke and Itachi could pull out the win in that scenario.



> Putting that aside, holy fuck why is the 4th Raikage at the bottom of your list.


Because I don't evaluate feats on how well someone performs against Uchiha Itachi's Jutsu or enemies, as you very clearly do.



Nikushimi said:


> Yep.
> 
> This is going in my sig for a while.


Why not also put the multiple paragraphs I wrote about how evaluating character match ups and level by feats has become extremely unreliable? Why not put the fact that I said Ei would actually never loose to Sai in Kishimoto's manga, and that it is soley based on the unrealiability of feats that Sai can possibly triumph over Ei, because Kishi hasn't bother or had the opportunity to give Ei a less restrictive arsenal, feat-wise, despite the fact that i'm sure if Ei went up against a flying enemy of Sai's caliber Kishi would give Ei something to combat him as Ei is clearly suppose to be above Sai? And the fact that the entire point I was trying to make is pointless nature of feats centric evaluations.

But of course you wouldn't put that in, because it doesn't fall in line with your dickery, and you pull shit like this, yet than come to me bitching about how I don't take your seriously or engage in serious discussion with you LOL.


----------



## Kazekage94 (Mar 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Well haven't hear whether OP wants Feats or Portrayal [Hype, Statements, Etc..] but I'm bored so I'll do both:
> 
> *Portrayal List*
> 
> ...



I disagree. Gaara and Ei should be higher than that. Gaara would beat Old Hiruzen, and Tsunade, and the Mizukage


----------



## Turrin (Mar 21, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> I disagree. Gaara and Ei should be higher than that. Gaara would beat Old Hiruzen, and Tsunade, and the Mizukage


On which list?


----------



## Bonly (Mar 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> it's hard to see how Ei wins. This is because *Ei has no mid-long range Jutsu to target Sai with once Sai starts flying on his Ink bird.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Turrin (Mar 21, 2014)

@Bonely

No one doubts Ei's ability to jump high. Dude is super-human. But there is definately a difference between the distance Ei jumped in the scan you posted and how high Sai has been shown to fly with his birds:
hyped
hyped
hyped
hyped
hyped

Ei has demonstrated zero feats that suggest he can jump that high and he has no Jutsu to increase his reach.


----------



## Super Chief (Mar 21, 2014)

Current Gokage.

1. Ōnoki
2. Gaara
3. A (interchangeable with Tsunade)
4. Tsunade (interchangeable with A)
5. Mei


----------



## Bonly (Mar 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Snip



Don't care, just showing you how A could hit Sai. If you wish to be ignorant of the fact that A can use his surrounds to help him Sai as well as the fact Sai isn't likely to fly that high along with the fact that nothing suggest he couldn't jump higher(he only jumped to stop Naruto, it would be pretty stupid to keep going higher) among other factors then that's on you. And with that said I'm gone


----------



## Kazekage94 (Mar 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> On which list?



Hey I'm from PA too. 
Anyway the feats list.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 21, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Don't care, just showing you how A could hit Sai.


You should care, because I blatantly showed why your example absolutely does not demonstrate Ei can hit flying- Sai



> If you wish to be ignorant of the fact that A can use his surrounds to help him Sai


If Ei were to say start climbing trees or something of the like than Sai could adjust his altitude in response to that. If that's not what your talking about than, yes I am ignorant of what your referring to; please enlighten me. 

Also this quite clearly only applies to certain battlefields. What about in an open field location?



> as well as the fact Sai isn't likely to fly that high


I just showed you multiple panels of Sai flying that high and fighting while flying that high. So this response is outright disingenuous. 

You can say maybe he wouldn't choose to fight that way against Ei, but that is assuming quite little of Sai's intelligence, and disregarding any scenario where Sai has knowledge of Ei's capabilities [or outright trolling in regards to Sai's intelligence]. 



> long with the fact that nothing suggest he couldn't jump higher(he only jumped to stop Naruto, it would be pretty stupid to keep going higher)


Seems to me that you just jumped in without reading any of the prior posting leading up to the Sai vs Ei discussion, which is based purely on feats, I.E. what's been shown. If Ei hasn't been shown to jump higher than against KCM-Naruto, than any further speculation on his jumping abilities is not germane to the feats-only- discussion at hand. 

To be more to the point, I have no doubt that Ei would beat Sai, if they fought in the manga; he'd probably stomp Sai in-fact. But when only taking into account feats, under certain conditions its hard to see how Ei would beat Sai, because Kishi [so far] has given him such a restrictive move-pool.



Kazekage94 said:


> Hey I'm from PA too.
> Anyway the feats list.


Nice to know there is another PA-guy in here. VM me some time. But anyway, I really don't care about the feats-list that much as I feel Kishi has adequately decimated the idea that feat centric comparisons mean anything in recent chapters. I'm only engagine in the Ei vs Sai, thing because I find it funny how but-hurt people are getting because Ei doesn't have great feats relative to his placement as a Kage, despite the fact that there is no doubt that in the manga Kishimoto would have him demolish Sai, given his portrayal.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Bonely
> 
> No one doubts Ei's ability to jump high. Dude is super-human. But there is definately a difference between the distance Ei jumped in the scan you posted and how high Sai has been shown to fly with his birds:
> hyped
> ...




I lost my entire response to you because my screen froze, but this is one of the points I would have brought up.

Sai can reach extreme heights on his ink creations, but if he files up that high, how is he going to reliably hit Ei? Juugo couldn't hit the Raikage with a large lazer cannon from point blank distance, so unless Sai flies extremely close to the ground, he'll have no chance. It'll just be an endless stalemate. But then again, Sai can stalemate a lot of people if he flies at airplane altitudes.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I lost my entire response to you because my screen froze, but this is one of the points I would have brought up.
> 
> Sai can reach extreme heights on his ink creations, but if he files up that high, how is he going to reliably hit Ei? Juugo couldn't hit the Raikage with a large lazer cannon from point blank distance, so unless Sai flies extremely close to the ground, he'll have no chance. It'll just be an endless stalemate. But then again, Sai can stalemate a lot of people if he flies at airplane altitudes.


Here's the thing, I could come up with strategies for how Sai * might* be able to hit Ei. However I know by feats that Ei can't hit flying Sai. So it's basically like ether the match ends in a stalemate or it ends with Sai's victory, which is pathetic considering Ei is the Yondaime Raikage. 

And I want to be clear here I'm not bashing Ei, i'm bashing Kishimoto, because clearly Kishimoto considers Ei much stronger than characters like Sai, but he has not given any fore-thought to how restrictive Ei's move-pool is and likely will never give that fore-thought unless he ends up writing Ei into a situation where he needs to fight at Long/Mid-Range, which since Ei is not a heavily featured character, may never occur. I'm also trying to exemplify the reason why feats-centrict discussion has become so pointless given recent chapters and Kishimoto's overall writing style.

Edit: to put it another way Kishi has a history of telling, but he isn't the best at showing or waits forever to show.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm not going to engage in this nonsense about Itachi being able to beat Sennin Modo Kabuto, again, if he had killer intent. Because it's simply not true and even you know that.



Itachi with killing intent and full knowledge would beat Sage Kabuto. He already proved he could catch Kabuto with Taijutsu/Kenjutsu, as well as Susano'o, so this isn't even up for debate. Kabuto had him on the ropes only because the Totsuka no Tsurugi was essentially restricted and the intel was totally one-sided.



> It also in no way reflects the point i'm trying to make that on paper Kabuto had everything he need to counter Itachi's moveset, yet the author gave him something new that could be effective, so Sasuke and Itachi could pull out the win in that scenario.



Kabuto would be very, very hard-pressed to counter the Totsuka no Tsurugi. It can cut through his Shikkotsumyaku and Itachi's fast enough to hit him with it; not a good combination for Kabuto to have to deal with.



> Because I don't evaluate feats on how well someone performs against Uchiha Itachi's Jutsu or enemies, as you very clearly do.



It's funny how you try to roleplay me and then use that in an argument, as if I'm responsible for the buffoonery _you_ concoct.



> Why not also put the multiple paragraphs I wrote about how evaluating character match ups and level by feats has become extremely unreliable? Why not put the fact that I said Ei would actually never loose to Sai in Kishimoto's manga, and that it is soley based on the unrealiability of feats that Sai can possibly triumph over Ei, because Kishi hasn't bother or had the opportunity to give Ei a less restrictive arsenal, feat-wise, despite the fact that i'm sure if Ei went up against a flying enemy of Sai's caliber Kishi would give Ei something to combat him as Ei is clearly suppose to be above Sai? And the fact that the entire point I was trying to make is pointless nature of feats centric evaluations.



Because that's all irrelevant. A blitzes and snaps Sai's neck. If Sai somehow gets airborne, the Raikage jumps and swats him so hard he dies before he hits the ground. If Sai somehow gets and stays out of reach in the air, the Raikage simply outlasts him with vastly greater stamina and the speed to make sure he can never land without immediately being intercepted, ultimately forcing Sai to choose death either by dehydration/starvation alone in the sky or a swifter killing-blow.



> But of course you wouldn't put that in, because it doesn't fall in line with your dickery,



-snip-



> and you pull shit like this, yet than come to me bitching about how I don't take your seriously or engage in serious discussion with you LOL.



I'm more-so just laughing at you at this point.



Turrin said:


> @Bonely
> 
> No one doubts Ei's ability to jump high. Dude is super-human. But there is definately a difference between the distance Ei jumped in the scan you posted and how high Sai has been shown to fly with his birds:
> hyped
> ...



Great, now show me Sai's feats of being able to damage or outlast the Raikage.


----------



## Alex Payne (Mar 21, 2014)

Onoki~Danzo>Gaara~A>Mei

Mu~2nd Mizukage~3rd Raikage>>Tsunade>4th Kazekage

Tobirama>Yagura(assuming full Sanbi Form)>3rd Kazekage~Hiruzen(Orochimaru fight)

They are all still close imo. I don't think that one top Kage(Danzo, Tobirama, Onoki) is beating two weaker ones without matchup advantages/prep/extremely high diff. 



Nikushimi said:


> Just so you're aware, I am compiling all of the ridiculous statements you've made into a single Word document for future citation. Unlike you, I don't need to pretend I'm you and invent surrogate nonsense to strawman my way out of an argument; I keep a record of the absurd shit people say and I use that when I need to make them look bad, as I intend to do with you. Keep up the good work; this stuff is gold.


I think you need a better hobby. Or maybe get laid.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 21, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi with killing intent and full knowledge would beat Sage Kabuto. He already proved he could catch Kabuto with Taijutsu/Kenjutsu, as well as Susano'o, so this isn't even up for debate.
> Kabuto had him on the ropes only because the Totsuka no Tsurugi was essentially restricted and the intel was totally one-sided
> .






> Kabuto would be very, very hard-pressed to counter the Totsuka no Tsurugi. It can cut through his Shikkotsumyaku and Itachi's fast enough to hit him with it; not a good combination for Kabuto to have to deal with.







> It's funny how you try to roleplay me and then use that in an argument, as if I'm responsible for the buffoonery you concoct.


Do I need to explain the difference to you between stating facts and attempting a role play?



> Because that's all irrelevant.


Context is Touts irrelevant



> A blitzes and snaps Sai's neck. If Sai somehow gets airborne, the Raikage jumps and swats him so hard he dies before he hits the ground. If Sai somehow gets and stays out of reach in the air, the Raikage simply outlasts him with vastly greater stamina and the speed to make sure he can never land without immediately being intercepted, ultimately forcing Sai to choose death either by dehydration/starvation alone in the sky or a swifter killing-blow.


I already addressed those points. 

-snip-


----------



## Rob (Mar 21, 2014)

Why do I always create shit-storms here 

So people like Danzo, Onoki, Gaara, Muu, and Hiruzen are deffo above Ei? 

I was never sure where to place Danzo... I mean... he did lose to Taka-Sauce...  

Ugh. Naruto match-ups are always the most confusing...


----------



## Turrin (Mar 21, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Why do I always create shit-storms here
> 
> So people like Danzo, Onoki, Gaara, Muu, and Hiruzen are deffo above Ei?
> 
> ...



By "feats" Ei is the weakest. 

By portrayal it's a tough call between who Kishi considers stronger; Yondaime-Kazekage, Ei, or Mei. However Ei is definitely seems to be one of the weaker Kages given his current-portrayal. As most of the Kages have better hype, statements, accomplishments, etc... than Ei.


----------



## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Mar 21, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Though I feel like I have a general idea of how to rank them (Probably not) I want to hear what the NBD thinks....
> 
> Rank these people,
> -Gaara
> ...



Ay
Danzo
Onoki
Gaara
Mei


----------



## Rob (Mar 21, 2014)

@Roronoa Zoro 

A lot of people seem to rank Ay lower than you did 

Question@Everyone

How would Danzo vs. Onoki turn out?


----------



## Turrin (Mar 21, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Question@Everyone
> 
> How would Danzo vs. Onoki turn out?


By portrayal Danzo > Onoki imo. Onoki's majorly hyped trait is Jinton, but Danzo has 3 abilities that are just as hyped as Jinton, possibly more so: Izanagi, Kotoamatsukami, and Kurama/Bijuu-Control. Also while Onoki's feats against Madara were indeed very impressive Danzo being able to defeat [or at least draw] with MS-Sasuke lacking his strongest ability [Koto] is simply more impressive in my eyes. Danzo was also treated as the main boss among the Gokage at the summit. So Danzo should be better than Onoki, even if the gap isn't monstrous.

By feats Danzo Iznagi's through everything Onoki throws at him and than re-spawns in his face with Kotoamatsukami winning the match.


----------



## Rob (Mar 21, 2014)

So, why wasn't Danzo able to use Koto during his fight with Sasuke? 
What does Koto do again? 

I'm a bit rusty


----------



## Turrin (Mar 21, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> So, why wasn't Danzo able to use Koto during his fight with Sasuke?
> What does Koto do again?
> 
> I'm a bit rusty


Kotoamatasukami was recharging when Danzo fought Sasuke, so he couldn't utilize it till the end, and at that point it was too late. 

Kotoamatsukami allows someone to impute a certain command on the target, without them being aware that such a command was issued. It's basically like Leluech's Geas, if you ever saw Code-Geas. 

So Danzo could issue a command like "defend me with you life" and Onoki will become his bitch till someone makes him realize he's within an illusion and breaks him out. Or in this case Danzo could be like "kill yourself" or "don't block my next attack", etc.... It's super OP.


----------



## Rob (Mar 21, 2014)

Recharging? When did Danzo use Koto before that?


----------



## Cognitios (Mar 21, 2014)

> Recharging? When did Danzo use Koto before that?


With Mifune is what I am thinking he is referring to.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 21, 2014)

Too busy with school...
...but I just wanted to come in and ask why Ei is so underestimated. 

Sure, his fighting style is pretty linear, but he would wreck any of the current Kage (bar Oonoki). 
A fight against Tsunade can go both ways, imo.

He would lose to the likes of Sai (going by feats)? 


Turrin, I used to think you were one of the better posters on this board, but your current reasoning has been very... strange.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Mar 21, 2014)

Debate civilly or don't debate at all.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 21, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Debate civilly or don't debate at all.



Sorry, AS...

On topic:

Tobirama
Muu
Danzou
Oonoki/Sandaime Raikage
Ei/Tsunade/Gaara (w/ Shukaku)
Gaara
Mei
Yondaime Kazekage


Old Hiruzen/Sandaime Kazekage/Yagura (in terms of hype) are basically featless, so it's difficult to rank them.

Additionally, I'm unsure where to rank Nidaime Mizukage, as I think Muu would do a better job against most opponents; there are things we're missing. He should be higher than Ei/Tsunade/Gaara (per the performance), but his placement - in relation to past Kage - could put him on the same level as Oonoki or marginally higher.


----------



## The Undying (Mar 21, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Ugh. Naruto match-ups are always the most confusing...




That's the beauty of this manga though. Nearly everything is up for debate, and tiers aren't as clear-cut as some people like to think.

Also, I think we can do without flamebaiting Turrin at every turn. We don't have to agree with him all the time but he has brought up quite a few perfectly reasonable arguments in the past and still does.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 21, 2014)

The Undying said:


> Also, I think we can do without flamebaiting Turrin at every turn. We don't have to agree with him all the time but he has brought up quite a few perfectly reasonable arguments in the past and still does.




*"I don't even know how Ei would beat Sai, if the match started at long-range, that's how restrictive Ei's move-set is, feat wise"*

It's getting difficult bro. It's getting difficult.


----------



## Rob (Mar 21, 2014)

lol AS going all SH4L on this thread. 

@Undying

Yea. I like that aspect of Naruto... but it sadly makes it hard to learn, you know. 
And that stupid-ass power-jump presumably made match-ups less interesting as well (The ones including Madara, Obito, Naruto, Sasuke and Kakashi, I mean) 
Turrin seems like one of the better posters, here, but so does Niku... so I won't side or bash


----------



## Turrin (Mar 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> *"I don't even know how Ei would beat Sai, if the match started at long-range, that's how restrictive Ei's move-set is, feat wise"*
> 
> It's getting difficult bro. It's getting difficult.


I'm sorry but I've addressed all of your posts nicely rocky, and have asked several times for you to provide a way for Ei to hit flying-Sai, using strictly feats, which is the sole medium in which I've asserted that I do not see how Ei beats Sai [given certain conditions. You and the other people who are complaining about my post, have been completely incapable of producing any reasonable means for Ei hitting flying-sai, based on feats. Yet continue to bitch at me because i'm saying I don't know how Ei wins. This is hardly a fair way to approach a conversation and quite frankly comes of as you and others just lacking a credible argument, so instead you resort to complaining. Not that I care what you guys say about me on the forum, I give no fucks, but it lowers my respect for you as someone who is worth wild to hold a logical conversation with; which is sad, because that is a dying breed int he NBD. Furthermore It always troubles me when I see someone who has a certain character in their sig, and goes out of their way to ignore logic and bash other people when it pertains to that character, as there agenda is just frighteningly transparent


----------



## Rocky (Mar 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm sorry but I've addressed all of your posts nicely rocky, and have asked several times for you to provide a way for Ei to hit flying-Sai, using strictly feats, which is the sole medium in which I've asserted that I do not see how Ei beats Sai [given certain conditions. You and the other people who are complaining about my post, have been completely incapable of producing any reasonable means for Ei hitting flying-sai, based on feats. Yet continue to bitch at me because i'm saying I don't know how Ei wins. This is hardly a fair way to approach a conversation and quite frankly comes of as you and others just lacking a credible argument, so instead you resort to complaining. Not that I care what you guys say about me on the forum, I give no fucks, but it lowers my respect for you as someone who is worth wild to hold a logical conversation with; which is sad, because that is a dying breed int he NBD. Furthermore It always troubles me when I see someone who has a certain character in their sig, and goes out of their way to ignore logic and bash other people when it pertains to that character, as there agenda is just frighteningly transparent




Logical discussion is not dying. Old posters will leave, and new ones will eventually rise. 

As for Sai, my opinion on that match up is so vastly different from your own that it makes me think you might be insane. Now, you aren't insane, but I do not see, AT ALL, how any person could come to the conclusion that Sai would trump the fucking Raikage based on what each character has displayed. 

Yes, Sai flies, but flight alone is not auto win versus Ei. Sai still has to engage the Raikage, as Sai cannot outlast nor connect with the Raikage from mile-high altitudes. Once he flies into combat range, the Raikage jumps – and that jump will be in the form of a body flicker that Sai is completely and utterly incapable of reacting to – and breaks Sai into multiple pieces. 

I do not get you. I used to love your posts, but recently it's like you purposely try and find an "opinion" that differs from everyone else's. I complain about you more than someone like, say, asstonine, because I had always felt like you were very reasonable. I found myself agreeing with you more often than not, and it helped that you put so much support into your posting. You weren't a troll.

THEN, out of _nowhere_, I found myself disgusted by some of your beliefs. Actually, nearly every one of them. I think you overestimate Katsuyu, Kushina, and the Sannin _horribly_, and your "new" debating style revolves _way_ too much around the saying "I don't think Kishi would write that." I feel like you've gone "100% portrayal all in", which imo is just as bad as the feat Nazis. When you do use feats, they're still interpreted poorly, like Sage Mode Jiraiya throwing around SAGE MODE BM Naruto based on Sage mode NARUTO throwing Kurama. That quite literally makes no sense.

At this point, all I can do is laugh. I find it funny, because your views are so outlandish to me that I think they're _literally_ crazy. Kushina being stronger than War Arc Obito, for example, is something I'd think a massive Kushina fangirl/super troll would claim, but I don't pay any mind to trolls. I pay mind to you, because in my head you were never a troll, so when I read something like that, I'm in disbelief that you're being serious....and that provokes laughter/"complaining." And it will continue if you keep making claims that I find too ridiculous to fathom.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Logical discussion is not dying. Old posters will leave, and new ones will eventually rise.
> As for Sai, my opinion on that match up is so vastly different from your own that it makes me think you might be insane. Now, you aren't insane, but I do not see, AT ALL, how any person could come to the conclusion that Sai would trump the fucking Raikage based on what each character has displayed.
> 
> Yes, Sai flies, but flight alone is not auto win versus Ei. Sai still has to engage the Raikage, as Sai cannot outlast nor connect with the Raikage from mile-high altitudes. Once he flies into combat range, the Raikage jumps ? and that jump will be in the form of a body flicker that Sai is completely and utterly incapable of reacting to ? and breaks Sai into multiple pieces.


Rocky the problem with your post continues to be that you do not substantiate them with anything tangible whatsoever or continue to fail to understand that we are talking; feats only. 

Ei does not have any feats of jumping to even the altitude at which Sai has been shown to discharge his exploding birds from [I.E. Sai's combat range]:
hyperbolic time chamber

How is Sai going to run out of chakra, when he can kick-back and rest any-time he needs to on his Ink-bird? You don't address the point, ever, you just take it for granted that it's to absurd that Sai wouldn't be out-lasted by Ei, so simply, and than move on from the point w/o providing any evidence whatsoever to support it.

This is not a logical way to hold a discussion or try to get your point across; than to add insult to injury you turn around and bash the person who is offering support for his conclusions [me].

With that said don't think that I don't sympathize with your plight. Saying Sai beats or even gives Ei high difficulty is stupid and ridiculous...in-fact that is indeed the entire point I am trying to make. That feats centric arguments are stupid and ridiculous, considering Kishimoto's writing style. In reality Ei would demolish Sai, no one contests that, least of all myself, but if we simply look at feats, than it's hard to see how Ei wins. This is the inherent limitation of feats, that should be acknowledge.

However instead of acknowledging such or addressing the issue head on, I.E. demonstrating a counter point to why feats are reliable and how Ei would stomp a flying-Sai; you choose to do nether, and take a bewildering middle position, that it's ridiculous that Ei would struggle with Sai, because of Ei's portrayal, yet do so within the context of a feat-centrict discussion, than turn around a say that I am being illogical because I am not also confusing the issues. This is awfully frustrating.



> I do not get you. I used to love your posts, but recently it's like you purposely try and find an "opinion" that differs from everyone else's. I complain about you more than someone like, say, asstonine, because I had always felt like you were very reasonable. I found myself agreeing with you more often than not, and it helped that you put so much support into your posting. You weren't a troll.


And I do not get you, because I've literally spelled out for you twice now, what I mean by Sai giving Ei difficulty, and the purposes of such an exercise, yet you still refuse to acknowledge any of the key points, while walking a nonsensical middle ground, that is not germane to a feat's only discussion, what-so-ever. And I consider you a smart guy, so I don't see why your failing to grasp how wildly nonsensical your view point is within the context of the points I was actually making.



> THEN, out of nowhere, I found myself disgusted by some of your beliefs. Actually, nearly every one of them. I think you overestimate Katsuyu, Kushina, and the Sannin horribly, and your "new" debating style revolves way too much around the saying "I don't think Kishi would write that." I feel like you've gone "100% portrayal all in", which imo is just as bad as the feat Nazis. When you do use feats, they're still interpreted poorly, like Sage Mode Jiraiya throwing around SAGE MODE BM Naruto based on Sage mode NARUTO throwing Kurama. That quite literally makes no sense.


Yes I have gone 100% portrayal, because feats have become pointless and crap given how Kishi has demonstrated he's willing to have any character pull out whatever they need in a given situation to conform to a specific power-level he is has in mind. Literally portrayal is all that we can use to guesstimate a characters strength, imo. If you believe differently and want me to here your beliefs than please give a logical and thought provoking argument for why feats matter. But keep in mind I have literally seen dozens of exceptionally well versed posters attempt to determine characters levels and who would win based on feats, only to have their arguments trolled horribly by the author. Feats are pointless an inaccurate, just like parallels as far as i'm concerned. Unless someone specifically wants to measure just feats, like in the KC, which is fine, but if we want to play around in an illogical world one shouldn't complaining to when we come to dumb conclusions like Ei struggling with flying-Sai.



> At this point, all I can do is laugh. I find it funny, because your views are so outlandish to me that I think they're literally crazy. Kushina being stronger than War Arc Obito, for example, is something I'd think a massive Kushina fangirl/super troll would claim, but I don't pay any mind to trolls. I pay mind to you, because in my head you were never a troll, so when I read something like that, I'm in disbelief that you're being serious....and that provokes laughter/"complaining." .


The reason you find it laughable is that you live in the world of feats. By portrayal, which has been proven infinitely more accurate than feats, the manga gives us every reason to believe Kushina is insanely strong. Simply put the same reasons I do not need to see Kushina fight an single Shinobi, to know that the author considers her extremely powerful, are the same reasons I do not need to see Ei demonstrate an ability to hit flying-sai, to know that Ei would WTFPWN Sai in the manga; none of which are feats. However take away these reasons, and only look at feats, and we end up in the world where Ei struggles with flying-Sai and Kushina's abilities can be laughed off.



> And it will continue if you keep making claims that I find too ridiculous to fathom.


Your calling me a Natzi, but literally this is more in line with that attitude. I provide rhyme and reason for my assertions, you do not provide anything for your own; your simply asserting that anything outlandish to you, will be disregard with mocking and ridicule. If your going to call something too ridiculous to fathom you better have a dam good argument, but you haven't even presented an argument, at all. So this is nothing, but blind assertions without substance, the same shit that Nikushimi does when something relates to Itachi, and is precisely that reason, that I don't bother with him or give any shits about his opinion.


----------



## Bonly (Mar 22, 2014)

Turrin you do realize that Sai actually has to use chakra to control his creature made out of his ink right? So you do realize that while he's high in the sky he's constantly losing chakra by having that bird out and fly or else it would turn into shapeless ink right?


----------



## Rocky (Mar 22, 2014)

Turrin said:
			
		

> ]Ei does not have any feats of jumping to even the altitude at which Sai has been shown to discharge his exploding birds from [I.E. Sai's combat range]:
> hyperbolic time chamber




What are the speed feats/DC feats of those exploding birds that would suggest they are capable of catching/damaging the Raikage?

When I speak of "combat range," I don't simply mean the distance at which Sai can drop an ink bomb. He can do that from any distance. What I mean is Sai must fly close enough to a point that he can realistically his someone of the Raikage's speed (hint: there is no distance close enough. Read the Juugo Raikage fight).



> How is Sai going to run out of chakra, when he can kick-back and rest any-time he needs to on his Ink-bird? You don't address the point, ever, you just take it for granted that it's to absurd that Sai wouldn't be out-lasted by Ei, so simply, and than move on from the point w/o providing any evidence whatsoever to support it.




Chakra just doesn't come back by taking.... power naps....? 

It can take days, like the Chidori limit Sasuke/Kakashi had in part one. "Resting on his bird" won't provide adequate Chakra recovery, and it's OOC anyway, just like Minato leaving to go to Konoha and returning later, rested with a prepared Frog Song for is opponent. 


_____

I'm still not seeing the difficulty. Sai will annoy Ei if he stays in the air, but then he's not really fighting, now is he? You also picked the Raikage's worst possible match-up, which he shares with other Kages. Tsunade has the same problem.


----------



## J★J♥ (Mar 22, 2014)

-Onoki
-Gaara
-Mei
-A
-Danzo


-Muu
-Trollkage
-Onoki
-Raikaugernaut
-Gaara
-Mei
-A
-Danzou
-Tsunade


-Hiruzen
-Muu
-Trollkage
-Onoki
-Tobirama
-Raikaugernaut
-3d Kazekage
-Gaara
-Mei
-A
-Danzou
-Tsunade
-Yagura


----------



## Kazekage94 (Mar 22, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Sorry, AS...
> 
> On topic:
> 
> ...



Are you serious? Do you mean Gaara with Shukaku at his side? If so, then you're mistaken. Gaara alone could beat Ay and Tsunade(Depending on Conditions). With Shukaku it won't be a problem, they just get overwhelmed. Gaara with Shukaku > The 2nd Mizukage. Dude get real.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 22, 2014)

@Rocky

I think most of your posts is basically Sai needs to come into range to fight Ei, but he doesn't have to do so, as he can send Ink-Bushin, Neo, and exploding Ink creations down at Ei. I don't think many of these will work and struggle to see Sai hitting Ei, but struggle to see Ei hitting Sai, which is the issue.  Power-Naps do recover chakra, but not a-lot, we saw that in the Pain arc, when Naruto collapses and than recovers after being unconscious for a bit. When I say rest I was thinking more lengthy solutions. Ei has no tracking ability, so Sai can escape his LOS and than go rest somewhere, than track Ei down later himself from the safety of his bird, or he loose Ei and than tunnel underground to rest. And days of rest is an exaggeration looking at the war arc, because they were constantly fighting and really the only time they got to rest was during the night, so it seems more like you just need a certain amount of hours of sleep to recover, and that's it,

Saying such methods are OOC is something that can't be said, because we've never seen an endurance struggle play out in the manga cannon before, but what does seem OOC is that Sai would ever enter Ei's range with knowledge of Ei's capabilities. 

Finally any match that turns into an endurance struggle seems like a high to extremely high difficulty match for whoever wins, as endurance struggles can take hours or even days, which is an insane amount of time to finish off the enemy, no matter who wins.

Tsunade does not share this problem as Katsuya rectifies it for her, Sai is one of Ei's worst match ups, but Ei by feats only has quite a few worse match ups because his move-pool has been so restricted by the author, which was my point. 

@Bonely 

Most of my response to your point can be seen in my response to rocky, assuming that Ink-Bird does keep zapping chakra, though it does not seem to be much at all, as Sai used Ink-Birds to fly the Ambush Squad for miles to from Alliance HQ, and than is still shown using more Ink-Creations during the ambush Squad battle, and more Ink-creations after the ambush squad battle.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @RockyI think most of your posts is basically Sai needs to come into range to fight Ei, but he doesn't have to do so, as he can send Ink-Bushin, Neo, and exploding Ink creations down at Ei.




And since they're falling from extreme altitudes, The Raikage will casually avoid them.

Or he'll stand there and tank them with no difficulty like Haku's random Ice Barrer. 



> When I say rest I was thinking more lengthy solutions. Ei has no tracking ability, so Sai can escape his LOS and than go rest somewhere, than track Ei down later himself from the safety of his bird, or he loose Ei and than tunnel underground to rest.




Retreating to rest?  That would be a loss in the Battledome. After debating for Minato so much, I would know. You can't just leave a fight to go take a break. 



> Saying such methods are OOC is something that can't be said, because we've never seen an endurance struggle play out in the manga cannon before, but what does seem OOC is that Sai would ever enter Ei's range with knowledge of Ei's capabilities.




Leaving to take a break is OOC for everyone, unless of course you've seen it happen before?



> Finally any match that turns into an endurance struggle seems like a high to extremely high difficulty match for whoever wins, as endurance struggles can take hours or even days, which is an insane amount of time to finish off the enemy, no matter who wins.




Difficulty is not determined by time. If Sai wants to stall, the Raikage can do some sit-ups or something. 

Seriously, Sai's offense is not a threat to the Raikage, so he can stay up there as long as he likes. Once he comes down, _OR RUNS OUT OF INK MAYBE,_ Raikage can proceed to blitz with no dif.



> Tsunade does not share this problem as Katsuya rectifies it for her, Sai is one of Ei's worst match ups, but Ei by feats only has quite a few worse match ups because his move-pool has been so restricted by the author, which was my point.




Sai can just fly out of Katsuyu's range. ck

Btw, you seem to be implying that Tsunade would lose to Sai (by feats) without godslug, which is just as lolzy as the Raikage.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Mar 22, 2014)

I haven't bothered to read the majority of the debate due to it's length, but I'm curious about two things:


How will Sai catch Ei, who is leagues faster than he is?
How will Sai damage or kill Ei?


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 22, 2014)

I usually disagree with Rocky and Bonly but I'm jumping on the what the shit bandwagon here. 

If Sai flies to a ridiculously high altitude and spams ink creations, he just exhausts himself and dies. I mean, Ei is a taijutsu master, he will just bat them all way and slice them into bits. His speed is such that he can effortlessly evade - he doesn't even need a raiton shroud. He has bijuu level chakra reserves and can survive lightning-speed travel without so much as a cut. Even whenever he does manage to sustain critical injuries, he can still fight without hesitation. Even if Ei can't hit Sai he will still beat him. He beats him without even needing to land a hit. _That is how big the difference is between them_.

I don't know why this was even brought up into discussion, but it's a pretty ridiculous claim and should just be dropped immediately.​​


----------



## The Undying (Mar 22, 2014)

^ I think Turrin's main point is that we can't rely only on feats to make a reliable argument about who beats who in a fight, which I agree with.

He just kinda chose a terrible example. Saying that Sai would have an advantage over the Raikage of all people, even by feats, is just... well...


----------



## Cognitios (Mar 22, 2014)

As much as I hate to bring this up, couldn't A just break the environment and make rubble then throw it in the sky at a rapid and fast pace and hope to bring Sai down? Sai would need to stay awake and dodge in the air, and I doubt that A will run out of stamina throwing rocks faster than Sai running out of chakra just plain dodging.

The reason I won't bring up anything anyone else said is Turrin is stuck in his opinion in those arguments, thus I bring up a new one.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 22, 2014)

The Undying said:


> ^ I think Turrin's main point is that we can't rely only on feats to make a reliable argument about who beats who in a fight, which I agree with.
> 
> He just kinda chose a terrible example. Saying that Sai would have an advantage over the Raikage of all people, even by feats, is just... well...




I see. Well, likewise we can't rely 100% on portrayal. The manga's feats, portrayals and the databook statistics that coincide with them are all hypocritical and contradict themselves at one point or another. It's important to use as many canon resources of information as possible when discussing Naruto so that we can actually get a view of the bigger-picture and make well-informed judgements. Using just one source of information - like portrayal, just doesn't work.​​


----------



## Bonly (Mar 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Bonely
> 
> Most of my response to your point can be seen in my response to rocky, assuming that Ink-Bird does keep zapping chakra, though it does not seem to be much at all, as Sai used Ink-Birds to fly the Ambush Squad for miles to from Alliance HQ, and than is still shown using more Ink-Creations during the ambush Squad battle, and more Ink-creations after the ambush squad battle.



True it may not seem like a lot but even if it's a little chakra being drained that still chakra being drained over time which means Sai could just sit of his bird all day.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> *I usually disagree with* Rocky *and Bonly*​​





I thought we connected on an emotional level and had a special bond, but looks like I was wrong ;_;. But that's ok at least I still have FlamingRain <3


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 22, 2014)

Bonly said:


> I thought we connected on an emotional level and had a special bond, but looks like I was wrong ;_;. But that's ok at least I still have FlamingRain <3



The Katsuyu joke has gotten old Bonly, I need new material. The GT love isn't given freely ​​


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Mar 22, 2014)

Based off the people on the list:

Hashirama
Tobirama
Minato - Alive with no access to Kyuubi chakra Edo Minato > Edo Tobirama
Muu
Onooki
Danzo - Was thinking about placing him above mu and onoki
Gaara
Raikaugernaut
Trollkage
Ay
Sarutobi - Sorry bro you need more feats besides your 5 chakra showing and death god
Tsunade
Yagura
third kazekage
fourth kazekage
Mei


----------



## Luftwaffles (Mar 22, 2014)

I'm sorry, I just read that Turrin wrote that Sai stood a chance against Ei. Are my eyes deceiving me?


----------



## Rocky (Mar 22, 2014)

Bonly said:


> I thought we connected on an emotional level and had a special bond, but looks like I was wrong ;_;. But that's ok at least I still have FlamingRain <3




It's better that he disagrees with you. Trust me, you want a fair amount of good posters to disagree with you so you can have fun debates.


----------



## Bonly (Mar 22, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> The Katsuyu joke has gotten old Bonly, I need new material. The GT love isn't given freely ​​





I can change and come up with something new, just give me time <3



Rocky said:


> It's better that he disagrees with you. Trust me, you want a fair amount of good posters to disagree with you so you can have fun debates.



I know but he still hit me in the feels pretty hard. My feels man, my feels ;_;


----------



## Turrin (Mar 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> And since they're falling from extreme altitudes, The Raikage will casually avoid them.
> 
> Or he'll stand there and tank them with no difficulty like Haku's random Ice Barrer.


Your probably right about that, but than we have a stalemate or drawn out endurance contest.



> Retreating to rest?  That would be a loss in the Battledome. After debating for Minato so much, I would know. You can't just leave a fight to go take a break.


If you find me where this is a written rule of the NBD I'll concede



> Leaving to take a break is OOC for everyone, unless of course you've seen it happen before?


We never seen someone in an endurance struggle, so how do you know it's OOC. And if given the choice between it being OOC for Sai to fall-back to rest, or Sai intentionally killing himself by entering Ei's range or using up all of his chakra to the point of dying, the former seems much more IC that those options.



> Difficulty is not determined by time. If Sai wants to stall, the Raikage can do some sit-ups or something.
> 
> Seriously, Sai's offense is not a threat to the Raikage, so he can stay up there as long as he likes. Once he comes down, OR RUNS OUT OF INK MAYBE, Raikage can proceed to blitz with no dif.


His offense is a threat unless Ei evades or tanks that shit with Raiton no Yoroi. I don't think Ei can just sit there doing nothing, he has to say on guard. 

And what determines difficulty is subjective I suppose, but for me if it takes a long-time for one shinobi to best another that is a high difficulty match.



> Sai can just fly out of Katsuyu's range


Than Tsunade uses her summon as a jumping point as we saw Gai demonstrate against Kisame to reach that range. 



> Btw, you seem to be implying that Tsunade would lose to Sai (by feats) without godslug, which is just as lolzy as the Raikage.


Which is why Feat-centrict arguments are lolz to begin with. And shit really starts getting lolz if we start taking shit away from one fighter or another. For example Ei can loose to Konohamaru if we take away Ei's physical capabilities and Raiton no Yoroi, which is dumb and lolzy, but by feats that would be the case, because Ei has nothing outside of his physical capabilities and Raiton no Yoroi; period.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I usually disagree with Rocky and Bonly but I'm jumping on the what the shit bandwagon here.
> 
> If Sai flies to a ridiculously high altitude and spams ink creations*, he just exhausts himself and dies.* I mean, Ei is a taijutsu master, he will just bat them all way and slice them into bits. His speed is such that he can effortlessly evade - he doesn't even need a raiton shroud. He has bijuu level chakra reserves and can survive lightning-speed travel without so much as a cut. Even whenever he does manage to sustain critical injuries, he can still fight without hesitation. Even if Ei can't hit Sai he will still beat him. He beats him without even needing to land a hit. _That is how big the difference is between them_.
> 
> I don't know why this was even brought up into discussion, but it's a pretty ridiculous claim and should just be dropped immediately.​​


Who in their right mind is going to kill themselves? How is the claim that Sai will kill himself less ridiculous than saying IDK how Ei beats a flying-Sai, in a full knowledge scenario, where Sai plays his cards right. And i'm begging you to consider this crucially; Sai killing himself vs not know how Ei deals the final blow on Sai, based on feats only.



> Bonly said:
> 
> 
> > True it may not seem like a lot but even if it's a little chakra being drained that still chakra being drained over time which means Sai could just sit of his bird all day.
> ...


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 22, 2014)

Rocky said:


> It's better that he disagrees with you. Trust me, you want a fair amount of *good posters* to disagree with you so you can have fun debates.







Bonly said:


> I can change and come up with something new, just give me time <3



I won't wait around forever, I'm going to move on eventually 



Turrin said:


> Who in their right mind is going to kill themselves? How is the claim that Sai will kill himself less ridiculous than saying IDK how Ei beats a flying-Sai, in a full knowledge scenario, where Sai plays his cards right. And i'm begging you to consider this crucially; Sai killing himself vs not know how Ei deals the final blow on Sai, based on feats only.



Sai is, if he decides to fly in the air and spam ink jutsu against the Raikage. And no, I don't know how Ei will land a deciding blow, but likewise I don't see how Sai can conceivably land a blow on/kill Ei either. Sai will exhaust his chakra long before that ever happens.​​


----------



## Turrin (Mar 22, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Sai is, if he decides to fly in the air and spam ink jutsu against the Raikage.


Or he'll stay in the air and spam ink-Jutsu, till he's getting low on chakra, and then rest.



> And no, I don't know how Ei will land a deciding blow, but likewise I don't see how Sai can conceivably land a blow on/kill Ei either.


So your saying the exact same thing I am.



> Sai will exhaust his chakra long before that ever happens.


Why can't Sai flee to some area to rest? or if his Ink-Bird doesn't zap more chakra than he can recover from resting, just rest on his bird?


----------



## Kaiser (Mar 22, 2014)

Well i wonder how Hiruzen actually defeats a flying Sai


----------



## Turrin (Mar 22, 2014)

Blake said:


> Well i wonder how Hiruzen actually defeats a flying Sai


Probably use KB as jumping points. But again this is why feat-centrict shit has become dumb.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Or he'll stay in the air and spam ink-Jutsu, till he's getting low on chakra, and then rest.
> 
> 
> So your saying the exact same thing I am.
> ...



When Sai runs away to rest then the Raikage is resting too. It works both ways. Also, if Sai just keeps running away then he isn't even fighting the Raikage, nor is he beating him. I should add, unless he rested for a _very significant_ period of time, his reserves still aren't going to be fully recovered. Ei has bijuu levels of chakra, so he's probably still going to outlast him.​​


----------



## Jad (Mar 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> *Who in their right mind is going to kill themselves?* How is the claim that Sai will kill himself less ridiculous than saying IDK how Ei beats a flying-Sai, in a full knowledge scenario, where Sai plays his cards right. And i'm begging you to consider this crucially; Sai killing himself vs not know how Ei deals the final blow on Sai, based on feats only.



Bolded - Exactly to the max. This is why I say in scenario's were Gai is forced with an option to either use a Kunai from his back pocket or go 8th Gate to win a battle, he would, you know, not want to die. See where I am going with this. Some people may think a typical situation is OOC for a ninja, but the way Kishimoto writes, they are very well IC. It's been shown for many characters.​


----------



## Rob (Mar 23, 2014)

... Kisame


----------



## Turrin (Mar 23, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> When Sai runs away to rest then the Raikage is resting too. It works both ways.​



Agreed which is why I don't see how the match would end, by feats.



> Also, if Sai just keeps running away then he isn't even fighting the Raikage, nor is he beating him. I should add, unless he rested for a _very significant_ period of time, his reserves still aren't going to be fully recovered. Ei has bijuu levels of chakra, so he's probably still going to outlast him.


​- Sai would be fighting him just using gorilla war-fare, which is a perfectly valid tactic
- Even if Ei eventually outlasts Sai after hours or days of fighting, that is a high difficulty win for Ei, which is my sole point.



Jad said:


> Bolded - Exactly to the max. This is why I say in scenario's were Gai is forced with an option to either use a Kunai from his back pocket or go 8th Gate to win a battle, he would, you know, not want to die. See where I am going with this. Some people may think a typical situation is OOC for a ninja, but the way Kishimoto writes, they are very well IC. It's been shown for many characters.​


Yet another reason feats are such an inconclusive way to evaluated the level of fighters or who would win between fighters. If there was someone Kishi viewed as weaker than Gai, but Gai couldn't win w/o a Kunai, he'd pull out that Kunai. Though who the hell is weaker than Gai at this point is another question entirely.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Agreed which is why I don't see how the match would end, by feats.
> 
> - Sai would be fighting him just using gorilla war-fare, which is a perfectly valid tactic
> - Even if Ei eventually outlasts Sai after hours or days of fighting, that is a high difficulty win for Ei, which is my sole point.



Sure, but it's only a high difficulty win on the basis that Sai keeps running away and hiding because he is infinitely weaker than the Raikage. Raikage doesn't face any chance of dying or being wounded in the match at all.

Also, this is still no reason to not use feats at all, using portrayal _alone_ to form an argument is going to be equally as inaccurate as just using feats.​​


----------



## Turrin (Mar 23, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Sure, but it's only a high difficulty win on the basis that Sai keeps running away and hiding because he is infinitely weaker than the Raikage. Raikage doesn't face any chance of dying or being wounded in the match at all.​​


So basically we agree. See that, went from, this is super ridiculous, to us saying the same exact thing. Isn't nice when people bother to actually read what your write; I wish more people were like you on the NBD Godaime.



> Also, this is still no reason to not use feats at all, using portrayal alone to form an argument is going to be equally as inaccurate as just using feats.


Sorry, but I think feats are pointless when the author is willing to have a character pull new Jutsu out at any given time. I mean tell me how a feat centrict argument works, when you can argue perfectly logically that someone can avoid all of Itachi's ocular Genjutsu, only for Kishimoto to be like, but whatever bro he can use physical-genjutsu now. So many other examples than this to but this is just the first that comes to mind.

Portrayal based arguments, can be wrong, because the author can change his mind, but they are the closest we can get to accuracy in discussions such as these. 

Though if you have a counter argument i'd love to hear it.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So basically we agree. See that, went from, this is super ridiculous, to us saying the same exact thing. Isn't nice when people bother to actually read what your write; I wish more people were like you on the NBD Godaime.







> Sorry, but I think feats are pointless when the author is willing to have a character pull new Jutsu out at any given time. I mean tell me how a feat centrict argument works, when you can argue perfectly logically that someone can avoid all of Itachi's ocular Genjutsu, only for Kishimoto to be like, but whatever bro he can use physical-genjutsu now. So many other examples than this to but this is just the first that comes to mind.
> 
> Portrayal based arguments, can be wrong, because the author can change his mind, but they are the closest we can get to accuracy in discussions such as these.
> 
> Though if you have a counter argument i'd love to hear it.



Feats, portrayal and statistics should all be used when constructing an argument. There should be no feat-centric or portrayal-centric arguments imo, we should be trying our best to get a decent balance of the three. 

I'm still not really getting your argument, though. Whenever Itachi busted out physical genjutsu Part II had only just began, and so Itachi quite naturally hadn't shown everything in his arsenal. Now, I can agree that in instances where Edo Itachi randomly pulled Izanami and Kotoamatsukami out his ass near the end of Part II, *that* was bullshit. However in most instances in the manga characters pulling out new jutsu is as a result of us either:

a) Not having seen much of said character's arsenal 
or
b) Said character learning a new technique at some point on/off-panel

This is why characters without many feats should not really be put into NBD match-ups, because they could potentially pull out random game-changing jutsu that we aren't aware of.​​


----------



## Turrin (Mar 23, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Feats, portrayal and statistics should all be used when constructing an argument. There should be no feat-centric or portrayal-centric arguments imo, we should be trying our best to get a decent balance of the three.


I disagree; feats, at least the way they are used in the NBD, are pointless. How can X-character doesn't have a counter for Z-Character's Y-Technique, tell me anything when the author will have X-Character pull out a counter for Y-Technique, if he believes X-Character > Z-Character. If that makes any-sense 



> I'm still not really getting your argument, though. Whenever Itachi busted out physical genjutsu Part II had only just began, and so Itachi quite naturally hadn't shown everything in his arsenal. Now, I can agree that in instances where Edo Itachi randomly pulled Izanami and Kotoamatsukami out his ass near the end of Part II, that was bullshit. However in most instances in the manga characters pulling out new jutsu is as a result of us either:
> 
> a) Not having seen much of said character's arsenal
> or
> b) Said character learning a new technique at some point on/off-panel


I was referring to Izanami, but yeah your two points are valid. However the questions I have are:

- What characters in the story have shown their complete arsenal? 
- Don't most characters develop their shit off panel?



> This is why characters without many feats should not really be put into NBD match-ups, because they could potentially pull out random game-changing jutsu that we aren't aware of.


Well my issue is at what point do we consider characters to have "many-feats"? Because Minato at this point had tons of panel time to accumulate feats, yet just recently pulled out Sennin Modo. Tobirama has had a-lot of times to pull out feats, but he is still talking about some-unknown spirit Jutsu and we still have no clue what his Tensei were capable of. Itachi had a-lot of panel time before being brought back as an Edo, it didn't stop him from displaying many new techniques. Gai had tons of panel time to show off new techniques, but it wasn't till now that we saw 8th-Gate/Evening Elephant. What about Tsunade she's had tons of panel time, but still we are learning more about her arsenal like that she can summon more than just Boss-Sized Katsuya. I could go on and on. Even the most featured characters like Naruto and Sasuke have been pulling out new shit left and right.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I disagree; feats, at least the way they are used in the NBD, are pointless. How can X-character doesn't have a counter for Z-Character's Y-Technique, tell me anything when the author will have X-Character pull out a counter for Y-Technique, if he believes X-Character > Z-Character. If that makes any-sense



Personally I think that's a big generalisation. It depends on the character and on the technique. If it was a character who could plausibly pull something out to retaliate then sure, but otherwise we can be reasonably sure that they're going to have to rely on what they've shown.



> I was referring to Izanami, but yeah your two points are valid. However the questions I have are:
> 
> - What characters in the story have shown their complete arsenal?
> - Don't most characters develop their shit off panel?



At this point, I'd say most relevant characters have shown the bulk of what they can do. Granted, there might be a few things like low-level genjutsu or basic elemental ninjutsu that a lot of characters could plausibly use, but nothing major. The only characters that may have more to show are characters that haven't really done much. That can be figured out on a case by case basis, though. It just depends on the match-up. 



> Well my issue is at what point do we consider characters to have "many-feats"? Because Minato at this point had tons of panel time to accumulate feats, yet just recently pulled out Sennin Modo.



I grant you that Sage Mode was kind of an asspull with Minato, but it was at least plausible, and there had been a reference to Minato being able to use Sage Mode previously that people overlooked. 



> Tobirama has had a-lot of times to pull out feats, but he is still talking about some-unknown spirit Jutsu and we still have no clue what his Tensei were capable of.



Tobirama was revered as a suiton master and has yet to use almost any suiton techniques, he also has that spirit jutsu, and could have very plausibly created other jutsu as well. He's been in the manga for less than 100 chapters so it's completely understandable that he has yet to show off his full arsenal. 



> Itachi had a-lot of panel time before being brought back as an Edo, it didn't stop him from displaying many new techniques.



Kishimoto pleasures himself violently when it comes to Itachi, so the asspulls were magnificent when it came to him. I'll give you that.



> Gai had tons of panel time to show off new techniques, but it wasn't till now that we saw 8th-Gate/Evening Elephant.



Gai obviously never used the eighth gate because it's a suicide technique, but even then it was never a secret, we were told back in Part I that it was a technique that exceeded the power of a normal Kage. 



> What about Tsunade she's had tons of panel time, but still we are learning more about her arsenal like that she can summon more than just Boss-Sized Katsuya.



Tsunade was only introduced near the end of Part I - she had one fight where she was rusty and out of shape, and then spent the next 200 chapters as a seated Hokage doing nothing but assigning missions. When she finally was shown using battle jutsu again Kishimoto offed her into a coma for 50 chapters. To be honest, until the Madara fight Tsunade really hadn't had that much panel time, so again, it is completely understandable that we are still learning about her jutsu. Unlike Jiraiya and Orochimaru who were consistently showing jutsu throughout Part I and II, Tsunade has shown the majority of her powers in the most recent arc.



> I could go on and on. Even the most featured characters like Naruto and Sasuke have been pulling out new shit left and right.



Naruto and Sasuke are the protagonists, though. They are constantly learning and gaining new powers, its not like they're randomly pulling things out their ass that we never knew they had.​


----------



## Turrin (Mar 23, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Personally I think that's a big generalisation. It depends on the character and on the technique. If it was a character who could plausibly pull something out to retaliate then sure, but otherwise we can be reasonably sure that they're going to have to rely on what they've shown.​



Well than my question becomes how to we define plausibly pull something out?



> *At this point, I'd say most relevant characters have shown the bulk of what they can do. *Granted, there might be a few things like low-level genjutsu or basic elemental ninjutsu that a lot of characters could plausibly use, but nothing major. The only characters that may have more to show are characters that haven't really done much. That can be figured out on a case by case basis, though. It just depends on the match-up.


What is this based on though. Lee is relevant character and just last chapter he showed a new ability 6th-Gate. In-fact all the rookies relatively recently showed new abilities. Gai just pulled out a new ability 8th-Gate [& Evening Elephant], yes it was talked about before, but we'd never seen it, and therefore would not be counted as feat until now. Garaa as a relevant character just recently showed yet another new ability, with his internal sand control. I could go on and on. And most characters discussed in the NBD are not nearly as featured in the manga-cannon as these characters.



> I grant you that Sage Mode was kind of an asspull with Minato, but it was at least plausible, and there had been a reference to Minato being able to use Sage Mode previously that people overlooked.


I'm not arguing the plausibility at all, in-fact I'm saying it's extremely plausible give how the manga is written that most [if not all] characters have more shit we haven't seen. 



> Tobirama was revered as a suiton master and has yet to use almost any suiton techniques, he also has that spirit jutsu, and could have very plausibly created other jutsu as well. He's been in the manga for less than 100 chapters so it's completely understandable that he has yet to show off his full arsenal.


Tobirama has been in the manga since Ch1 showed his face on the Hokage mountain and certainly since we saw him as an Edo in the CE Arc. Did he get featured all that time or fight consistently during that time; no way, but that applies to most characters in the manga cannon. The only ones that fight consistently are Naruto, Sasuke, and Kakashi, and even they pull out new shit all the time. It was only recently that Sennin Modo Naruto pulled out yet another new ability in the form of ridiculously huge FRS.



> Kishimoto pleasures himself violently when it comes to Itachi, so the asspulls were magnificent when it came to him. I'll give you that.


But Kishimoto does that shit for all the characters. 



> Gai obviously never used the eighth gate because it's a suicide technique, but even then it was never a secret, we were told back in Part I that it was a technique that exceeded the power of a normal Kage.


Yes based on portrayal, not feats.



> Tsunade was only introduced near the end of Part I - she had one fight where she was rusty and out of shape, and then spent the next 200 chapters as a seated Hokage doing nothing but assigning missions. When she finally was shown using battle jutsu again Kishimoto offed her into a coma for 50 chapters. To be honest, until the Madara fight Tsunade really hadn't had that much panel time, so again, it is completely understandable that we are still learning about her jutsu. Unlike Jiraiya and Orochimaru who were consistently showing jutsu throughout Part I and II, Tsunade has shown the majority of her powers in the most recent arc.


By the time Tsunade had finished fighting Madara we'd had seen her go up against more enemies in the manga than Jiriaya. Jiriaya fought drugged in the Sannin duel, than he fought Pain. Tsunade fought f'd up, for her own reasons, against Kabuto, than the Sannin duel; than she had a role in the Pain arc. Than fought Madara, and still we are seeing more shit from her after that. If someone needs as much panel time against enemies as Tsunade has, before we can start evaluating them based on feats, that eliminates almost everyone in the manga cannon. As for Orochimaru he is still showing new shit, like using his CS to disable Spiral, something people before that scene did not grant him based on feats.



> aruto and Sasuke are the protagonists, though. They are constantly learning and gaining new powers, its not like they're randomly pulling things out their ass that we never knew they had.


Agree with you man, but than if we eliminate the protagonist, and eliminate anyone who has had less panel time against enemies than Tsunade. Who do we really have left. Gaara, yet Gaara just showed new abilities a few chapters ago. Gai, who just showed new abilities a this chapter?​


----------



## ? (Mar 23, 2014)

Hashirama
Minato (edo)
Minato (base)
Tobirama
Hiruzen (hype)
Onoki
3rd Raikage
Ei
Gaara
2nd Mizukage/Muu
Tsunade
Gaara's dad
Mei


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 24, 2014)

*Godly Tier*
Hashirama
Minato (edo)

*High Kage Tier*
Tobirama
Minato (base)
2nd Mizukage/Muu

*Mid Kage Tier*
Oonoki
3rd Raikage
Gaara

*Low Kage Tier*
Tsunade
Hiruzen 
Ei

*Fodder Kage Tier*
Mei
Gaara's dad


----------



## Kai (Mar 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yes I have gone 100% portrayal, because feats have become pointless and crap given how Kishi has demonstrated he's willing to have any character pull out whatever they need in a given situation to conform to a specific power-level he is has in mind. Literally portrayal is all that we can use to guesstimate a characters strength, imo.


Just wanted to comment on this point. 

We used to campaign that feats aren't everything in here, but just because portrayal has a greater presence than before doesn't mean we should completely gravitate to the opposite extreme.

An issue with some of your controversial stances Turrin, is by arguing 100% portrayal there still exists a fat space for confusion over interpreted power levels. I see you giving side, oddball characters (Kin/Gin) credit that Kishimoto-sensei would never go the distance to expand on, and there presents itself an unbalance in judging a character's strength. You come off as a poster that delights in giving credit and notice to almost all shinobi in the series that people would ignore - the problem with this is in reality, Kishimoto simply doesn't make a big deal out of most of his side cast towards a level or performance you congratulate them for. 



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> But keep in mind I have literally seen dozens of exceptionally well versed posters attempt to determine characters levels and who would win based on feats, only to have their arguments trolled horribly by the author. Feats are pointless an inaccurate, just like parallels as far as i'm concerned.


Arguments and stances do not need to be changed in advance, in preparation of "trolling" by the author. They can and should change the moment events do in the manga.
Similarly, hyperbolic statements and some bad seed descriptions are not grounds for shunning all databook entries.

But alas, we will always be of similar stance in threads regarding Onoki


----------



## Mithos (Mar 24, 2014)

Blake said:


> Well i wonder how Hiruzen actually defeats a flying Sai



Hiruzen has shown he can use all 5 elements. He would have no problem blasting Sai out of the sky.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 24, 2014)

Kai said:


> Just wanted to comment on this point.
> 
> We used to campaign that feats aren't everything in here, but just because portrayal has a greater presence than before doesn't mean we should completely gravitate to the opposite extreme.


Yeah, and back then I would have agreed with you, but since than we have had ton of examples where feats just utterly fail to deliver a rational estimate of a characters strength. What I mean by this is back in the day, it used to seem like after a shinobi had a major battle & a overall a certain degree of panel time, than we could conclude that we had seen most of what a shinobi was capable of; maybe there would be some minor techniques we didn't know about like C-Rank techs or something, but nothing major. 

However,  the War-Arc has basically destroyed this notion. The war-arc brought many old characters back and allowed us to see many characters participate in multiple major battles. By seeing this we are now able to see that the amount of panel time most [if not all] characters have enjoyed in the manga, is not enough to actually grasp the full depth of their abilities, where feat centric discussion can come to any kind of accurate conclusion. 

I'll use Gaara as an example, since Gaara is one of thee most featured side characters in the entire manga, so he's had some of the greatest amount of time to accumulate feats. In-fact Gaara in the war-arc had a massive amount of panel time in comparison to other characters to show feats, between the Edo-Kage and Madara battles alone. However despite this Gaara is still pulling out new feats in the current Juubi battle; and it's not just minor new tricks, it's pretty substantial stuff. So if even someone with panel time as great as Gaara, still hadn't shown off all of his shit, by the Juubi battle, how can we possibly evaluated most characters in the manga-cannon based on feats? For example someone like Sandaime-Raikage had no where even remotely near the amount of panel time Gaara had to accumulate feats, so really there is absolutely no telling what the fuck the true scope of Sandaime Raikage's abilities are. So than to bring up feats based arguments, like Sandaime-Raikage lacks a counter to this Jutsu or that Jutsu, is utterly pointless when there is absolutely no way to know that. 

This is made even worse by Kishimoto making certian Jutsu and abilities interact in unexpected ways, that we has the fans wouldn't be able to know unless shown in the manga cannon; for example Oil shutting down Konan.



> An issue with some of your controversial stances Turrin, is by arguing 100% portrayal there still exists a fat space for confusion over interpreted power levels. I see you giving side, oddball characters (Kin/Gin) credit that Kishimoto-sensei would never go the distance to expand on, and there presents itself an unbalance in judging a character's strength. You come off as a poster that delights in giving credit and notice to almost all shinobi in the series that people would ignore - the problem with this is in reality, Kishimoto simply doesn't make a big deal out of most of his side cast towards a level or performance you congratulate them for.


He just had a side-cast member become stronger than anyone but Juubi-Jins; so there is that.

As for Gin & Kin specifically, they were stated to have defeated Tobirama and Kishi has spent a great deal of time portraying Tobirama as extremely powerful, so that is the major reason why I rate Gin/Kin highly; there are other reasons I rate them highly, but I'll leave at that to avoid Gin&Kin debate. I don't see anything wrong with that ether, unless yet again we go off of the completely pointless feats centric arguments, that won't even entertain the possibility that V2 Gin or Kin can use Bijuu-Bomb, Banan-Fan can use strong elemental attacks when more chakra is pumped into them, Gin&Kin having other Jutsu outside of the Sages Treasures, etc... Not saying Gin&Kin specifically have these things, but the problem ultimately is that we don't have any kind of grasp of the full scope of their capabilities, considering they have had 3-Chapters to accumulate feats, while characters like Gaara, have had countless and are still pulling out new major feats. So yes the fact that Kishimoto had it stated that Gin&Kin beat Tobirama is a more reliable means to judge their strength, than saying they loose to X,Y,Z characters because within the 3 chapters they had to show feats they didn't show counters to X,Y,Z characters Jutsu. 



> Arguments and stances do not need to be changed in advance, in preparation of "trolling" by the author. They can and should change the moment events do in the manga.
> Similarly, hyperbolic statements and some bad seed descriptions are not grounds for shunning all databook entries.


Nah I changed my positions because the author has demonstrated in this arc Feat-centrict arguments are pointless, time and time again. I can't sit here and keep denying it, and pretending that we can somehow come to rational estimate of who would win in a battle between 2 characters, based on feats when the manga has time and time again proved feat-centric shit won't work. I mean think about how many feat based discussions on Gai's strength were proven hopeless inaccurate with the appearance of 8th-Gate. If someone had said Gai beats Hashirama, heck even made the thread, they would get laughed out of here, until this recent chapter, and now we have threads far more ridiculous than that [not saying those are all accurate].

I mean you could literally create a composite character that has all the feats necessary to counter all the techniques/abilities of even a character as featured as Gaara, and that could still be proven horribly wrong; that's how inaccurate feats are.


----------

