# Itachi runs NNT



## Steven (Jul 16, 2018)

Speed equal

Where does he stop?


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## Lord Valgaav (Jul 16, 2018)

Merlin snaps her fingers.


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## EternalRage (Jul 16, 2018)

Gowther mindfucks


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## Divell (Jul 16, 2018)

Sun God swings in general direction.


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## Zihawk (Jul 16, 2018)

Ban snaps his neck


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## Lord Valgaav (Jul 16, 2018)

Divell said:


> Sun God swings in general direction.





Zihawk said:


> Ban snaps his neck



Genjutsu feints in both situations. 

Itachi can take Escanor and Ban out with speed equal.


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## Deleted member 267744 (Jul 16, 2018)

Now don't get mad this is an Obligatory Itachi shitpost


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## Lord Valgaav (Jul 16, 2018)

Mig35 said:


> Now don't get mad this is an Obligatory Itachi shitpost



You get out of here.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 16, 2018)

Lord Valgaav said:


> Itachi can take Escanor and Ban out with speed equal.



Time for that little emo boy to praise the Sun


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## Lord Valgaav (Jul 16, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Time for that little emo boy to praise the Sun



More like Mr. Sun enjoys a nice crowjob.

Totsuka or Izanami will end him. I doubt any other genjutsu or even Amaterasu will do the trick though. 

Same with Ban who can't be killed but also has no way of escaping loops and purgatory.


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## Foxve (Jul 16, 2018)

Speed equal means it's over for those without resistance to his level of mindfuck the moment they see him.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 16, 2018)

Foxve said:


> Speed equal means it's over for those without resistance to his level of mindfuck the moment they see him.





Lord Valgaav said:


> More like Mr. Sun enjoys a nice crowjob.
> 
> Totsuka or Izanami will end him. I doubt any other genjutsu or even Amaterasu will do the trick though.
> 
> Same with Ban who can't be killed but also has no way of escaping loops and purgatory.



Funny how both of you seem to forget that to many NNT Characters(Including, but not limited to Ban, Meliodas, Escanor, DK, Diane, Estarossa, Chandler, Tarmiel, etc) can end Itachi with a casual attack, making this at the very least a battle of "Itachi casts genjutsu at the same time he gets rammed by an attack at the Gt level and dies".


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## Lord Valgaav (Jul 16, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Funny how both of you seem to forget that to many NNT Characters(Including, but not limited to Ban, Meliodas, Escanor, DK, Diane, Estarossa, Chandler, Tarmiel, etc) can end Itachi with a casual attack, making this at the very least a battle of "Itachi casts genjutsu at the same time he gets rammed by an attack at the Gt level and dies".



I'm not arguing he can beat anyone. But with speed equal theres nothing Escanor or Ban can do to avoid getting the Nagato or Kabuto treatment. 

Sure, if one of the aforementioned people lands a solid hit he's done for. But again, speed equal really turns things around for a lot of characters. So yeah, how you described it really is how things would go.

Reactions: Like 1


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## EternalRage (Jul 16, 2018)

Gowther is the same way.


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## Foxve (Jul 16, 2018)

The thing with "lol genjutsu" is that Itachi simply has to look in your direction and it's done if you're not immune or have resistance to that level. 

Speed equal means everything is equal from movement speed to projectile speed. Itachi doesn't need either for his genjutsu though.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 16, 2018)

Foxve said:


> The thing with "lol genjutsu" is that Itachi simply has to look in your direction and it's done if you're not immune or have resistance to that level.
> 
> Speed equal means everything is equal from movement speed to projectile speed. Itachi doesn't need either for his genjutsu though.


*Sigh*

Yes, he does. He needs to activate the genjutsu, or the sharingan to then activate the genjutsu. He isn't always on some sort of "automatic genjutsu mode".

Not to mention that he has to follow the target in the line of his sight if the target starts moving. Which is quite difficult as seen with Amaterasu never being able to hit anything.


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## Gunstarvillain (Jul 16, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> *Sigh*
> 
> Yes, he does. He needs to activate the genjutsu, or the sharingan to then activate the genjutsu. He isn't always on some sort of "automatic genjutsu mode".
> 
> Not to mention that he has to follow the target in the line of his sight if the target starts moving. Which is quite difficult as seen with Amaterasu never being able to hit anything.


Yeah was about to say that aint KS mah boi...


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## Dr. White (Jul 16, 2018)

Lord Valgaav said:


> More like Mr. Sun enjoys a nice crowjob.
> 
> Totsuka or Izanami will end him. I doubt any other genjutsu or even Amaterasu will do the trick though.
> 
> Same with Ban who can't be killed but also has no way of escaping loops and purgatory.


No lmao. Ban can use zero sign and Itachi's life is over. Ban can also activate hunterfest at any time and still sap itachi's energy even if under illusion.

Totsuka isn't any where near powerful enough to pierce escanor and escanor can legit passively vaporize itachi by just existing and has resisted both a soul fuck and gowther's tsukuyomi like mindfuck.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Jackalinthebox (Jul 16, 2018)

This thread definitely isn't likely to become cancer or anything


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## Kaaant (Jul 16, 2018)

Pretty sure he has more firepower than most NNT characters


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## Dr. White (Jul 16, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Pretty sure he has more firepower than most NNT characters


He doesn't.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 16, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Pretty sure he has more firepower than most NNT characters



He doesn't. 

Even then, if he had, he still is laughably lacking in durability. A tap from Escanor is liable to kill Itachi.

But no, he doesn't.


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## Lord Valgaav (Jul 16, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> No lmao. Ban can use zero sign and Itachi's life is over. Ban can also activate hunterfest at any time and still sap itachi's energy even if under illusion.



Yeah...but which is likely to happen first? Ban activating one of those abilities or Itachi looking at him? I don't doubt either Sin being able to beat Itachi, I just believe Itachi can take them out sooner.



Dr. White said:


> Totsuka isn't any where near powerful enough to pierce escanor and escanor can legit passively vaporize itachi by just existing and has resisted both a soul fuck and gowther's tsukuyomi like mindfuck.



Totsuka is a spiritual blade. It should be able to stab him juat fine. 

As for his passive heat, he's fought around fodder and such before and they didn't melt. Same with the rest of the main cast. He won't reach dangerous levels of heat for Itachi till The One, but again, Itachi can genjutsu feint+Totsuka him before that happens. 

Now the thing about Gowther. He would've beaten Escanor in that match. His fuck up was choosing to use Merlin as a mindfuck and it back fired on him. Escanor doesn't have any actual resistance feats. 

Oh and he also didn't resist soulfuck. Things went as planned, but due to his Grace his soul was too hot for Mera to eat. Itachi won't be eating, just trapping in purgatory.


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## Kaaant (Jul 16, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> He doesn't.
> 
> Even then, if he had, he still is laughably lacking in durability. A tap from Escanor is liable to kill Itachi.
> 
> But no, he doesn't.



>lacking in durability
>can trade punches with KCM naruto

What are you talking about


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## Dr. White (Jul 16, 2018)

Lord Valgaav said:


> Yeah...but which is likely to happen first? Ban activating one of those abilities or Itachi looking at him? I don't doubt either Sin being able to beat Itachi, I just believe Itachi can take them out sooner.


Ban activating his abilities...? Ban has no pre reqs, Itachi has to activate sharingan, make eye contact, and then use the spell.

and like I said Ban can still take Itachi out while under illusion.



> Totsuka is a spiritual blade. It should be able to stab him juat fine.


No? Totsuka does not ignore durability lmao.



> As for his passive heat, he's fought around fodder and such before and they didn't melt. Same with the rest of the main cast. He won't reach dangerous levels of heat for Itachi till The One


why are you using bad PIS low ends?

Escanor casually vaporized the city + Vampire King and most of Edinburgh castle by simply expending his energy and saying boom. 

When escanor showed up to fight Estarossa they had to move the fight because Escanor presence was melting the knights armor and was going to vape Ban, Gil, Howzer, etc.

Itachi dies standing next to him.



> , but again, Itachi can genjutsu feint+Totsuka him before that happens.


Not really.



> Now the thing about Gowther. He would've beaten Escanor in that match. His fuck up was choosing to use Merlin as a mindfuck and it back fired on him. Escanor doesn't have any actual resistance feats.


> Escanor resist a mindfuck on panel due to his pride.
> Escanor has no resistance feats




> Oh and he also didn't resist soulfuck. Things went as planned, but due to his Grace his soul was too hot for Mera to eat. Itachi won't be eating, just trapping in purgatory.


True but his energy was too much for her body to handle. We've only seen totsuka seal hydra and Nagato.


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## Dr. White (Jul 16, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> >lacking in durability
> >can trade punches with KCM naruto
> 
> What are you talking about


KCM Naruto is city level. Which is legit 1st saga level sins. That is not > most of NNT.

Itachi does not get scaling in physicality for trading blows mid convo as an edo. Itachi cannot replicate KCM Naruto strength feats lmao.

Itachi is not city level with Susanoo/

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## Kaaant (Jul 16, 2018)

Kcm is stronger than his island level sage mode form


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## Dr. White (Jul 16, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Kcm is stronger than his island level sage mode form


Sage Naruto is not island level physically. The only island level thing Naruto has before BM is his FRS variants.

Even if that were true you would be saying SM Naruto < KCM Naruto = Base Itachi. Let me know when you see something wrong.


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## Kaaant (Jul 16, 2018)

Yes he is island level physically. Kcm naruto is as well so it does not matter.


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## Dr. White (Jul 16, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Yes he is island level physically. Kcm naruto is as well so it does not matter.


No he isn't.


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## Kaaant (Jul 16, 2018)

You can say that like it’s an argument.  But it isn’t.


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## Dr. White (Jul 16, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> You can say that like it’s an argument.  But it isn’t.


Good thing there is no positive evidence for him being island level, surely you'd have spent the time providing such evidence instead of "saying that like it's an argument" here.


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## Jackalinthebox (Jul 16, 2018)

Amaterasu scales to Senpo Rasenshuriken which is a dozen gigatons or so. Nothing else in Itachi's arsenal is island level. Only other tech you could argue being at that level is his charged Yasaka Magatama, but mehh it creates too many headaches


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## Kaaant (Jul 16, 2018)

>naruto and his clones physically resist the ST that can deflect his island level FRS
>not physically island level based off just this 

Ok

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## Kaaant (Jul 16, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Amaterasu scales to Senpo Rasenshuriken which is a dozen gigatons or so. Nothing else in Itachi's arsenal is island level. Only other tech you could argue being at that level is his charged Yasaka Magatama, but mehh it creates too many headaches



Amaterasu has a high end showing of knocking out the eight tales, that can physically contend with the juubi. It’s got another showing by hurting the juubi itself


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## Dr. White (Jul 16, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> >naruto and his clones physically resist the ST that can deflect his island level FRS
> >not physically island level based off just this
> 
> Ok


You realize ST disperses ninjutsu correct?

Also by your logic I guess we gotta go get the scaling book out. All ninja who survived the even stronger CST that leveled the village are now all island level. That island level shikamaru


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## Kaaant (Jul 16, 2018)

“It’s only ok to use scaling when it suits me”

An outright lie when pain said to tsunade that sticking herself to the ground with chakra wouldn’t stop his attack. 

And when KCM naruto can sit at ground zero of his own FRS going off. And actually leaving physical damage on a guy who can fight with the eight tails. So any reductionist bullshit you want to play is irrelevant here. 

>not physically island level


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## Jackalinthebox (Jul 16, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Amaterasu has a high end showing of knocking out the eight tales, that can physically contend with the juubi. It’s got another showing by hurting the juubi itself


To be fair, Ama's showings are all over the place. Low island level is a good low ball imo 

What was the Juubi's Tenpenchi calced at? Gigatons or Teratons? Madara tanked it with V3, Itachi's V4 when using Yata should scale to that


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## Dr. White (Jul 16, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> An outright lie when pain said to tsunade that sticking herself to the ground with chakra wouldn’t stop his attack.


Good thing that using chakra on your feat isn't a jutsu. Back to Naruto101 for you.


> And when KCM naruto can sit at ground zero of his own FRS going off.


Don't recall him ever being "ground zero" to one of his FRS.



> And actually leaving physical damage on a guy who can fight with the eight tails.


With his FRS? The one we already decided was island level? The one which barely hurt him? That one?



> So any reductionist bullshit you want to play is irrelevant here.
> 
> >not physically island level


Still waiting for actual proof. 

Dat island level mecha Nagato holding Naruto down, Dat island level Han injuring Naruto through his KCM shroud. Let me know when KCM Nardo Is actually island level outside of FRS.

Also I love how the whole point of this is you trying to prove that Itachi is island level physically (something tthat is factually wrong). Then we end up with island level Kurenai, Hebi Sauce, Kakashi, and base Naruto 
[/QUOTE]


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## Kaaant (Jul 16, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> To be fair, Ama's showings are all over the place. Low island level is a good low ball imo
> 
> What was the Juubi's Tenpenchi calced at? Gigatons or Teratons? Madara tanked it with V3, Itachi's V4 when using Yata should scale to that



Do you ever recall an instance where amaterasu was straight up tanked, and not subverted? I.e, a limb/skin/armour had to be removed to prevent death? Obito used his omnyouton or whatever to get rid of it. 

It’s incredibly potent iirc 

Second paragraph is entirely true.


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## Dr. White (Jul 16, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> What was the Juubi's Tenpenchi calced at? Gigatons or Teratons? Madara tanked it with V3, Itachi's V4 when using Yata should scale to that


You mean what was Kirin calc'd at

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## xenos5 (Jul 16, 2018)

Foxve said:


> Speed equal means it's over for those without resistance to his level of mindfuck the moment they see him.



I could very much see Ban having that level of mind resistance. 

He transformed into a wolf demon for hundreds of years in Purgatory but managed to turn himself back through sheer will power, and as soon as he started to transform into it again he stopped the transformation much quicker rather than losing his mind to it.


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## Affectugender (Jul 16, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> I could very much see Ban having that level of mind resistance.
> 
> He transformed into a wolf demon for hundreds of years in Purgatory but managed to turn himself back through sheer will power, and as soon as he started to transform into it again he stopped the transformation much quicker rather than losing his mind to it.



Completely different kind of mindfucks but ok.


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## Foxve (Jul 17, 2018)

If said character has the resistance, then I'm not referring to them as I already said. 

It's also normal for him to start with it activated. With speed equal and zero knowledge he just spams genjutsu and then stabs with the susanoo blade. Both meliodas and Diane got mind fucked without even realizing it at the beginning of the series. His genjutsu doesn't have to be torture necessarily. He could just make them fight each other or turn one person into a puppet. 

Yes it obvious that he's not going to solo the verse. There's plenty of characters that would transform him into a stain. But acting like he can't beat anyone whose name is worth mentioning is just straight up biased.....


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## Dr. White (Jul 17, 2018)

Foxve said:


> If said character has the resistance, then I'm not referring to them as I already said.
> 
> It's also normal for him to start with it activated. With speed equal and zero knowledge he just spams genjutsu and then stabs with the susanoo blade. Both meliodas and Diane got mind fucked without even realizing it at the beginning of the series. His genjutsu doesn't have to be torture necessarily. He could just make them fight each other or turn one person into a puppet.
> 
> Yes it obvious that he's not going to solo the verse. There's plenty of characters that would transform him into a stain. But acting like he can't beat anyone whose name is worth mentioning is just straight up biased.....


You are using feats from when the sins were jobbing which is why Guilla was "beating" Ban, Meliodas, and Diane in base. Mel or Diane could have easily AOE'd the place.

We assume characters will do their best and you are trying to have your cake and eat it to...You are saying Ban won't immediately pull out hunterfest or zero sign, and that is why Itachi can get him, yet claim Itachi will then try and immediately pull out Totsuka and soul fuck despite him never operating as such? Not how it works.


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## RavenSupreme (Jul 17, 2018)

Always enjoying these civil Itachi debates.


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## Foxve (Jul 17, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> You are using feats from when the sins were jobbing which is why Guilla was "beating" Ban, Meliodas, and Diane in base. Mel or Diane could have easily AOE'd the place.
> 
> We assume characters will do their best and you are trying to have your cake and eat it to...You are saying Ban won't immediately pull out hunterfest or zero sign, and that is why Itachi can get him, yet claim Itachi will then try and immediately pull out Totsuka and soul fuck despite him never operating as such? Not how it works.





Foxve said:


> If said character has the resistance, then I'm not referring to them as I already said.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 17, 2018)

Itachi is _noted _to be a ninja who has far superior skills than most others but lacks in physicals because of his ninja aids. 

Edo Itachi(And all the other Edos too) got a boost in pretty much any stat. 

You smoking crack if you think that Itachi can trade blows with KCM Nardo when he was alive(Even if we include his prime). You're basically saying that Itachi physically destroys fucking Kira A. Do you understand how dumb that is ?


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## Kaaant (Jul 17, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Edo Itachi(And all the other Edos too)



This is literally never stated and is in fact the opposite.

Are you going to ignore shit like him causing minor damage to Bee too?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 17, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> This is literally never stated and is in fact the opposite.



It is _clear_.

Zabuza and Haku were part one, scratch that, ARC ONE Nardo levels and suddenly they become remotely relevant again ? 

Not to mention the infinite boost of chakra that Edo has(That also should affect dura/DC and the character's physical traits since they utilize chakra to enhance their taijutsu strength and having unlimited supply of chakra is well, helpful at that) and being able to regen through anything ?

Madara also is a prime example, being revived in a level way superior to normal Madara, that is canon. 

Pain was revived in a non-ninja aids guy with his vitality and power at max.

Itachi too, non-ninja aids, with his power at max and his vitality at best. 

And you didn't addres the stupidity that it is to think that Itachi can handle Kira A in taijutsu.


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## Kaaant (Jul 17, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> It is _clear_.
> 
> Zabuza and Haku were part one, scratch that, ARC ONE Nardo levels and suddenly they become remotely relevant again ?
> 
> ...



Appealing to part one power levels is downright retarded and you know it. When hiruzen is the top shinobi going yet even fodder jounin have better feats than he does. It’s stated that even with orochimaru’s chakra enhancing kabuto’s ET they still weren’t properly revived. I don’t care what your head canon is.


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## Keishin (Jul 17, 2018)

People missing the fact that Ban's new heart stealing ability is long-rang with hundreds of meters . He's going to snatch the pump while Itachi is screaming in pain as he powers up to the maximum susanoo stage as if hes going SSJ3.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 17, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Itachi is _noted _to be a ninja who has far superior skills than most others but lacks in physicals because of his ninja aids.
> 
> Edo Itachi(And all the other Edos too) got a boost in pretty much any stat.
> 
> You smoking crack if you think that Itachi can trade blows with KCM Nardo when he was alive(Even if we include his prime). You're basically saying that Itachi physically destroys fucking Kira A. Do you understand how dumb that is ?


Dude, Base B threw A on his ass and couldnt take Itachi down in CQC even with his swords.


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## Dr. White (Jul 17, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Dude, Base B threw A on his ass and couldnt take Itachi down in CQC even with his swords.


Which had nothing to do with strength.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 17, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Which had nothing to do with strength.


Trashing A or not immediately overpowering Itachi? Cause both are strength related


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## Dr. White (Jul 17, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Trashing A or not immediately overpowering Itachi? Cause both are strength related


He never entered a contest of strength with Itachi. Itachi used speed, and diversions. Itachi has no physical feats suggesting he is on par with the stronger ninja in the universe like Ei, tsunade,Kisame, etc.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 17, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> He never entered a contest of strength with Itachi. Itachi used speed, and diversions. Itachi has no physical feats suggesting he is on par with the stronger ninja in the universe like Ei, tsunade,Kisame, etc.


>fights KCM Naruto in CQC 
>Fights B in CQC
>Engages SM Kabuto in CQC

??????

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## Dreams of Tommorow (Jul 17, 2018)

scans are needed at this point


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 17, 2018)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> scans are needed at this point



A psychologist is needed at this point, people are arguing that alive Itachi gets scaling from his Edo form, from the verse's GREATEST at PHYSICAL STRENGTH, THE RAIKAGE. 

That's like getting Kurenai to scale from Itachi's genjutsu. Physical might(Speed and power) are notably where the Raikage Family fall into(A, Raikagennaut and Bee too), all the more amplified by Jinchuuriki Cloak/Raiton Armor, to the point of A being considered the fastest ninja as Minato was dead, and Nardo was >> A in speed, and suddenly Itachi also is >> A in speed, because reasons ? That's simply not how the plot works. People claiming PIS and CIS for the Haku/Zabuza revival, but not wanting to admit that Edo Itachi being anywhere near A's speed(Or strength) is BULLSHIT SO BIG THAT YOU CAN SMELL FROM ANOTHER PLANET. 

Itachi was never noted to be exceptionally strong, so no he isn't city level in fucking durability and although he was fast, it was mostly reflexes and hand-seals speed. Not the "I'mma blitz the ever living shit out of you speed " that Raikage(And Nardo/Bee) have going for him. That is bullshit, if you ask anyone who ever read Nardo "In physical strength who is stronger A or Itachi?" you'll NEVER hear " Itachi". Scaling Itachi from this PIS/CIS fuck up that is the edo tensei is just as ridiculous of an argument as you all were bitching about me not "daring to use part 1 Nardo for measure of power ".


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 17, 2018)

Hes not stronger than them, they just cant straight up overpower him in a fight. Hes got the skill to compensate for the difference as well 

Edo Itachi is beyond what alive Itachi was cause the dude was sick for his entire apperance. New MS Sasuke could dodge max speed raikage, Itachi shits on that version of Sauce


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## uchihakil (Jul 18, 2018)

Itachi clears, with speed equalised, in a verse with no mind fuck resistance (even the demon king got shat on by mind fuck), itachi defo shits on anyone in NNT, eye contact GG.  And for the people arguing itachi has to activate his sharingan in a fight blah blah blah, Itachi always has his sharingan active

> against oro
> against deidara
> as an edo (that means against kabuto, naruto and bee)
> Against sasuke in both boushin and shippuden
> Against naruto when he installed KA in him
> against team kakashi and chiyo

hell in every fucking fight he's in his sharingan is already activated, so yea the sharingan activation argument is debunked and itachi clears.


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## Keishin (Jul 18, 2018)

The demon King exists in another dimension and he got mindfucked by Gowther. 





uchihakil said:


> Itachi clears, with speed equalised, in a verse with no mind fuck resistance (even the demon king got shat on by mind fuck), itachi defo shits on anyone in NNT, eye contact GG.  And for the people arguing itachi has to activate his sharingan in a fight blah blah blah, Itachi always has his sharingan active
> 
> > against oro
> > against deidara
> ...


Full counter


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## uchihakil (Jul 18, 2018)

Yea sure, full counter worked on TP, yea its not like we have'nt got any explanation on how FC works. Merlin should be able to perfect cube genjutsu, king petrifies it and escanor burns it *smh*. FYI @Keishin , i take your posts with a grain of salt.


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## Affectugender (Jul 18, 2018)

Keishin said:


> Full counter


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## Keishin (Jul 18, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> Yea sure, full counter worked on TP, yea its not like we have'nt got any explanation on how FC works. Merlin should be able to perfect cube genjutsu, king petrifies it and escanor burns it *smh*. FYI @Keishin , i take your posts with a grain of salt.


Full counter works on magic based abilities which the genjutsu is. Genjutsu is adding the users chakra to control the chakra flowing in the chakra network between the nerves.

And FC has also countered Dozen attacks from ~5 different users at the same time and King's better hax than just petrification.

Chandler Full Countered an illusion from Gowther once.


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## Steven (Jul 18, 2018)

Keishin said:


> Full counter works on magic based abilities which the genjutsu is. Genjutsu is adding the users chakra to control the chakra flowing in the chakra network between the nerves.
> 
> And FC has also countered Dozen attacks from ~5 different users at the same time and King's better hax than just petrification.
> 
> Chandler Full Countered an illusion from Gowther once.


Lol,he can Full Counter now a eyecontact?


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## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> >fights KCM Naruto in CQC
> >Fights B in CQC
> >Engages SM Kabuto in CQC
> 
> ??????


>He literally traded sparring blows with a Naruto who was doing the bare minimum as to not get hit lmao. There are numerous examples of stronger people sparring with weaker people in this manga. That does not mean they are equal in strength lmao. 

>And? He never hurt Bee physically or took one of his hits. The full extent of any activity they did involving strength was Itachi blocking his sword strikes with kunai. Which means absolutely nothing lmao. Sasuke did the same thing with a sword and you remember the fucking gap in strength between them?
 Sasuke tried to kick Killer Bee and that didn't work out to well for him...

Juugo went SM Arm mode, and punched him straight in his shit. What happened? Nothing, he needed the jets to even move him. He lol'd at suigetsu's water strength as well. 

Itachi is not closer in strength to Bee than he is to MS Sasuke. Kisame is someone on par with Bee in strength given his crazy strength and durability feats, and matching Bee with a head butt physically. 

> Once again Itachi was using speed, skill, and deception. His best strength feat that fight is blocking a scalpel with Kusanagi. 

You are trying to abuse powerscaling when Itachi is clearly not on a tier of strength or durability as the people you are trying to compare him to.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 18, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> >He literally traded sparring blows with a Naruto who was doing the bare minimum as to not get hit lmao. There are numerous examples of stronger people sparring with weaker people in this manga. That does not mean they are equal in strength lmao.
> 
> >And? He never hurt Bee physically or took one of his hits. The full extent of any activity they did involving strength was Itachi blocking his sword strikes with kunai. Which means absolutely nothing lmao. Sasuke did the same thing with a sword and you remember the fucking gap in strength between them?
> Sasuke tried to kick Killer Bee and that didn't work out to well for him...
> ...


B was fucking with Sasuke for most of the fight and not taking him seriously, but as soon as he engaged Itachi he tried to pressure him with his swords and used Hachibi to block flaming shuriken from him.

Dude slaughtered an entire elite clan with no effort at 13-14, is hailed as an incredibly powerful and dangerous ninja, and you’re really trying to say he cant be on A and B’s level because reasons. He has the feats to be on their level but okay, be in denial i guess


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> B was fucking with Sasuke for most of the fight and not taking him seriously, but as soon as he engaged Itachi he tried to pressure him with his swords and used Hachibi to block flaming shuriken from him.


Yea because Itachi is more skilled than Sasuke, and was a bigger threat than when he met some no named Uchiha with a scrub squad coming to fuck with him. 

Flaming shuriken and Genjutsu =/ physicality.



> Dude slaughtered an entire elite clan with no effort at 13-14,


Because Itachi was the most skilled and had the MS? His swordplay, shuriken skills, stealth, etc. Not to mention the only person of note in the clan besides shisui was his dad who didn't even fight him.

Not to mention Uchiha aren't known for physical strength.

You don't seem to get that City level physicality is something special in Naruto. Tsunade, Bee, Ei, Kisame, etc are all physical beast and why they get that scaling. Itachi is more about finesse, and has Susanoo for when he needs the power.



> is hailed as an incredibly powerful and dangerous ninja, and you’re really trying to say he cant be on A and B’s level because reasons. He has the feats to be on their level but okay, be in denial i guess


Are you purposefully being stupid?

Itachi is not a physical fighter lmao. He CAN fight physically but it's not his bread and butter, and when he does do so, like Kakashi, and Sasuke, he is a skilled fighter. He is on their level because he is skilled in taijutsu, has > city level amatrerasu and City level Susanoo, and dangerous ass genjutsu.

That doesn't fucking equalize him to Bee's and Ei's stats in the physical dept


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Jul 18, 2018)

This is still ongoing? Itachi should have town level durability at best but nothing higher. Definitely doesn't scale to Raikage or B in physical strength, though.

With Susano'o he should be somewhere in the megatons. Totsuka is...who fucking knows, Nardo's scaling is all over the place 

How fast were the Sins before the Galan shit?


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 18, 2018)

> Full Counter
> Eye contact
> FULL FUCKING COUNTER

Yeah. That time when even your side of the debate is retarded.

One side is saying that Itachi has Kira A levels of speed and dura and hailing Itachi as a physical beast in a verse where there are few people who have been hailed as such(3rd Raikage, 4th Raikage, Kisame, Guy, Tsunade, Lee and MAYBE ADD HASHIRAMA because his "vitality" or whatever was the same thing that made Tsunade strong or some bullshit like that, and that's about it in the department of people who get any scaling above town level in physical might aside from asspull Nardo, Sasuke and Sakura and MAYBE Senjutsu users, a big maybe because Jiraiya himself was town level physically and Kabuto showed nothing impressive even with senjutsu and other five or six abilities all stacked up his ass) and the other is saying that MELIODAS CAN FULL COUNTER GENJUTSU.

Edit: Oh and Juugo. But Juugo also falls in with Senjutsu I believe.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> This is still ongoing? Itachi should have town level durability at best but nothing higher.
> With Susano'o he should be somewhere in the megatons. Totsuka is...who fucking knows, Nardo's scaling is all over the place


pretty much.

Though Totsuka is pretty much stuck in the same boat as Susanoo's durability. The next step up is PS and I don't see justification in scaling his weapons to PS. 


> How fast were the Sins before the Galan shit?


Mach 277


----------



## Zihawk (Jul 18, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> > Full Counter
> > Eye contact
> > FULL FUCKING COUNTER
> 
> ...



Chandler full countered Gowther’s illusion in chapter 238. Genjutsu is magic, meaning it’s able to be full countered. Idk why, after all the years that I’ve lurked on this site, that genjutsu is still seen by some people as some sort of exception to a lot of rules when it comes to mindfuck/illusory techniques. It’s not exemplary, it’s not exotic, and it’s not particularly broken.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 18, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> pretty much.
> 
> Though Totsuka is pretty much stuck in the same boat as Susanoo's durability. The next step up is PS and I don't see justification in scaling his weapons to PS.



Actually, there's a calc that puts Itachi's Yasaka Magatama in the low Gt level from that confrontation with Nagato's CT.

It came out in low Gt I believe.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Actually, there's a calc that puts Itachi's Yasaka Magatama in the low Gt level from that confrontation with Nagato's CT.
> 
> It came out in low Gt I believe.


Was it accepted? Gonna bet that KCM FRS and Bjuudama did alot more work than his beads.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 18, 2018)

Zihawk said:


> Chandler full countered Gowther’s illusion in chapter 238. Genjutsu is magic, meaning it’s able to be full countered. Idk why, after all the years that I’ve lurked on this site, that genjutsu is still seen by some people as some sort of exception to a lot of rules when it comes to mindfuck/illusory techniques. It’s not exemplary, it’s not exotic, and it’s not particularly broken.



I fucking hate the treatment that is generally given to genjutsu myself but saying that Meliodas will FC a GAZE it is pretty retarded. Even assuming he can, which he can't, how the hell will he even KNOW "Oh his gaze has a illusion, so I'll use full counter ".

It is retarded.



Dr. White said:


> Was it accepted? Gonna bet that KCM FRS and Bjuudama did alot more work than his beads.



To my knowledge yes it was accepted, and because no one had the exact percentage of how much each attack dealt of DC they divided in three. 

Although I'm inclined to agree with you that one bijuudama and a KCM FRS are both >>> Yasaka Magatama, but as we can't prove shit, might as well run with the result. Which I don't seem to find anywhere on this fucking site with many broken links.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I fucking hate the treatment that is generally given to genjutsu myself but saying that Meliodas will FC a GAZE it is pretty retarded. Even assuming he can, which he can't, how the hell will he even KNOW "Oh his gaze has a illusion, so I'll use full counter ".
> 
> It is retarded.


He full countered King's Life/death manipulation which was remotely used to initiate at the target as well, so it's not that farfetched. Meliodas has pretty crazy sensing as well, and even your avg fodder nin can sense chakra build up.


----------



## Kaaant (Jul 18, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> as you all were bitching about me not "daring to use part 1 Nardo for measure of power ".



Could just respond to me directly if you have a problem with what I said.


----------



## Zihawk (Jul 18, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I fucking hate the treatment that is generally given to genjutsu myself but saying that Meliodas will FC a GAZE it is pretty retarded. Even assuming he can, which he can't, how the hell will he even KNOW "Oh his gaze has a illusion, so I'll use full counter ".
> 
> It is retarded.




You seem to be hung up on the fact that the illusion is transmitted through a gaze. That doesn’t fucking make in uncounterable. They can counter illusions while they are in the damn illusion. That’s what got Chandler fucked. He didn’t counter it as soon as it was fired at him, he was already in the illusion and then countered it. Also Gowther>>>Itachi when it comes to mindfucking, so Mel and Chandler will have no problem no-selling his weak shit illusions and reducing him to paste.


----------



## uchihakil (Jul 18, 2018)

No @Zihawk , chandler used absolute order on gowther, the illusion gowther used was successful creating an opening which they used to tag chandler. Tell me what exactly mel or chandler will FC in genjutsu?? The gaze? lol. Eitherway i'm not entertaining a notion like this.


----------



## uchihakil (Jul 18, 2018)

Zihawk said:


> You seem to be hung up on the fact that the illusion is transmitted through a gaze. That doesn’t fucking make in uncounterable. They can counter illusions while they are in the damn illusion. That’s what got Chandler fucked. He didn’t counter it as soon as it was fired at him, he was already in the illusion and then countered it. Also Gowther>>>Itachi when it comes to mindfucking, so Mel and Chandler will have no problem no-selling his weak shit illusions and reducing him to paste.



Gowther is not better than itachi, izanami and izanagi craps on any illusion gowther has because those techniques break the boundary between illusion and reality. Itachi also has tsukiyomi which he controls time and space with. Itachi can outright kill with his illusion unlike gowther, IMO both are good tp users and have different methods, saying gowther is better is biased.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2018)

Lmao
-Gowther can control inanimate objects like golems, or earth creations. He can also control the undead which Itachi can't.
- Gowther doesn't need eye contact and can administer his mindfuck from touch or his light arrows from range.
- Gowther can completely rewrite someones memories, and do so on a national scale to beings even such as gods immune to magic.
- Gowther can cast deceptive illusions on beings like Galan to make him believe he had killed the sins despite his sensing.
- Gowther can both read others minds, and send telepathic links to people to communicate.
- Gowther can concentrate his mindfuck into an aura and then expand it to mindfuck town level characters for kilometers.
- Gowther can shut off an opponents nervous system for a duration of 10s.
- Gowther has his own version of Tsukuyomi, which is admittedly inferior in terms of duration, but still accomplishes pretty much the same thing except on a more psychological level.

Edit: Oh yeah lets not forget with his sacred weapon he can shoot dozens of mindfuck arrows at once, and also has blackout arrow which is essentially an arrow made of magic aura which tracks the target and renders them unconscious when it hits and worked on someone as powerful as Escanor.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 18, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Could just respond to me directly if you have a problem with what I said.



There were two people tho, you and another poster. I knew you were tagged in this thread, if you like for me to tag you in my response when I'm talking about one of your points, then ok, I'll do it.



Zihawk said:


> You seem to be hung up on the fact that the illusion is transmitted through a gaze. That doesn’t fucking make in uncounterable.



No, it doesn't.



> They can counter illusions while they are in the damn illusion. That’s what got Chandler fucked. He didn’t counter it as soon as it was fired at him, he was already in the illusion and then countered it.



Not with FC. It was with absolute order.  



> Also Gowther>>>Itachi when it comes to mindfucking, so Mel and Chandler will have no problem no-selling his weak shit illusions and reducing him to paste.



That's another argument altogether which I don't object to. 



Dr. White said:


> He full countered King's Life/death manipulation which was remotely used to initiate at the target as well, so it's not that farfetched. Meliodas has pretty crazy sensing as well, and even your avg fodder nin can sense chakra build up.



That includes some things:

> Meliodas knowing both the effects and the cause
> Meliodas being able to reverse it with FC
> Meliodas knowing that he's in a genjutsu


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## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> > Meliodas knowing both the effects and the cause


Not really, if he senses a build up of chakra (or in his verse magical energy) then he may very well just decide to FC anything non physically based. 


> > Meliodas being able to reverse it with FC


think Zihawk already proved this case. Even if Mel is caught he should be able to expel the magic. 


> > Meliodas knowing that he's in a genjutsu


I mean Mel will eventually find out, when what he is sensing doesn't match what he's feeling. 

also it is not being taken into account that Mel has clones and Kakashi already cucked Itachi (albeit shoten Itachi) with one and showed you can't genjutsu them. Meliodas can literally finger flick, or swing a twig at Itachi and kill him, so any of them should be capable of punching him out.


----------



## Keishin (Jul 18, 2018)

Zihawk said:


> You seem to be hung up on the fact that the illusion is transmitted through a gaze. That doesn’t fucking make in uncounterable. They can counter illusions while they are in the damn illusion. That’s what got Chandler fucked. He didn’t counter it as soon as it was fired at him, he was already in the illusion and then countered it. Also Gowther>>>Itachi when it comes to mindfucking, so Mel and Chandler will have no problem no-selling his weak shit illusions and reducing him to paste.


You did itachi tards dirty just now


----------



## Zihawk (Jul 18, 2018)

Holy shit what is it with people saying he absolute ordered away the illusion? That’s not even how absolute order fucking WORKS. He casts that on a person and tells them to do/not to do something. You can’t absolute order an illusion LMAO. 

Read chapter 238 and you’ll see Gowther trapped him in an illusion and made him blow full counter in order to dispel the illusion. That opening is what allowed King and Gowther’s combo attack to hit in the first place.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 18, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Not really, if he senses a build up of chakra (or in his verse magical energy) then he may very well just decide to FC anything non physically based.



Sensors in Nardo can't sense that shit. C, couldn't sense his way out of genjutsu for example, AND HE WAS EXPECTING TO GET HIMSELF IN A GENJUTSU BECAUSE OF WHO HE WAS FIGHTING. 

It's not that easy my dude.



> think Zihawk already proved this case. Even if Mel is caught he should be able to expel the magic.



Nope, he didn't, because Chandler used absolute order. 



> I mean Mel will eventually find out, when what he is sensing doesn't match what he's feeling.



I'll agree to that if Meliodas has feats of resisting Gowther(Like Chandler does). My memory is a bit foggy, do you remember such a instance ?



> also it is not being taken into account that Mel has clones and Kakashi already cucked Itachi (albeit shoten Itachi) with one and showed you can't genjutsu them.



One of the billion ways Mel can murder Itachi straight up. 



> Meliodas can literally finger flick, or swing a twig at Itachi and kill him, so any of them should be capable of punching him out.



Yes.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 18, 2018)

Zihawk said:


> Holy shit what is it with people saying he absolute ordered away the illusion? That’s not even how absolute order fucking WORKS. He casts that on a person and tells them to do/not to do something. You can’t absolute order an illusion LMAO.
> 
> Read chapter 238 and you’ll see Gowther trapped him in an illusion and made him blow full counter in order to dispel the illusion. That opening is what allowed King and Gowther’s combo attack to hit in the first place.



I am pretty sure of what I remember. I'll go give it a look, I'll come back at you real quick.

Edit: Read it. He didn't dispell the illusion with neither FC or AO, he just simply noted it was an illusion.


----------



## Zihawk (Jul 18, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Nope, he didn't, because Chandler used absolute order.



Fucking stop. You haven’t read the chapter. I try not to flame but you remind me of Unknown with your blatant refusal to actually acknowledge the fact that you are wrong and have no clue about the position you are arguing against.

READ. CHAPTER. 238. Then come back here and recant all the dumb shit you said about Absolute order because that wasn’t used to dispel Gowther’s illusion.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Sensors in Nardo can't sense that shit. C, couldn't sense his way out of genjutsu for example, AND HE WAS EXPECTING TO GET HIMSELF IN A GENJUTSU BECAUSE OF WHO HE WAS FIGHTING.
> 
> It's not that easy my dude.


Completely false, and false equivocation. 

> Yes they can. Genjutsu uses chakra from the eye to manipulate the opponents mind via the nerves. We already have seen Nagato sense build up in Itachi's eyes, and warned Naruto (as he thought it was amaterasu or something), but it was really Itachi activating the crow.

> C example doesn't really do what you think it does. C got *blitzed*, and Sasuke *forced eye contact* with him before he could muster a reflex, and the genjutsu made him shit is pants and become immobilized. There is a panel with Sasuke, and Raikage staring eachother down around the time Shi tells us about raikage's cloak. That does not mean Shi couldn't sense it coming, he just wasn't fast enough to do shit. 





> Nope, he didn't, because Chandler used absolute order.


What are you talking about? You can't absolute order an illusion...This was when King and Gowther were comboing to attack him...If gowther was under absolute order then he wouldn't be able to attack him...and we see on panel chandlier using full counter to push away the illusion....





> I'll agree to that if Meliodas has feats of resisting Gowther(Like Chandler does). My memory is a bit foggy, do you remember such a instance ?


Meliodas has the same move that chandlier used.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 18, 2018)

Zihawk said:


> Fucking stop. You haven’t read the chapter. I try not to flame but you remind me of Unknown with your blatant refusal to actually acknowledge the fact that you are wrong and have no clue about the position you are arguing against.
> 
> READ. CHAPTER. 238. Then come back here and recant all the dumb shit you said about Absolute order because that wasn’t used to dispel Gowther’s illusion.





Mr. Black Leg said:


> Edit: Read it. He didn't dispell the illusion with neither FC or AO, he just simply noted it was an illusion.



^ I re-read it and that was what I said. I was partially wrong, but you weren't right either. He didn't dispell the illusion with FC, he dispelled the illusion with nothing. Not FC nor AO. He just realized he was in a illusion.


----------



## Steven (Jul 18, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Meliodas can literally finger flick, or swing a twig at Itachi and kill him, so any of them should be capable of punching him out.


What's stopping itachi from dodging it?

itachi have pre-cog and speed is equal


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 18, 2018)

Acnologia said:


> itachi have pre-cog and speed is equal



> Pre-cog
> Itachi

*sigh*

Oh, it's Acnologia.


----------



## Zihawk (Jul 18, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> ^ I re-read it and that was what I said. I was partially wrong, but you weren't right either. He didn't dispell the illusion with FC, he dispelled the illusion with nothing. Not FC nor AO. He just realized he was in a illusion.



What? If it wasn’t dispelled he would have believed that was the actual attack and wouldn’t have tried to ready himself for the real fusion arrow. We see him use full counter, we see a bright flash of light, and we see him realizing it was an illusion. 

FC clearly interacted with the illusion, else his cane would have passed right through it, and there wouldn’t have been a bright flash indicating that it had been dispelled.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2018)

Acnologia said:


> What's stopping itachi from dodging it?
> 
> itachi have pre-cog and speed is equal


Meliodas is thousands of times more agile, can make clones who can all oneshot Itachi, and they all of have AOE hellblaze/air sword strikes?

Itachi can literally not even block a punch or his whole body will crumble to pieces.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 18, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> bruh



That was him trying to FC the illusion in his head. Which led up to nothing. 



Zihawk said:


> What? If it wasn’t dispelled he would have believed that was the actual attack and wouldn’t have tried to ready himself for the real fusion arrow. We see him use full counter, we see a bright flash of light, and we see him realizing it was an illusion.



EXACTLY. Him using FC isn't on the fucking Illusion. The illusion didn't go back to Gowther and fucked Gowther up. 

He simply realized that what he had tried to FC was a illusion and not real.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> That was him trying to FC the illusion in his head. Which led up to nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bruh he fucking dispelled the illusion.

When Meliodas countered King's Disaster it didn't go back to King, it got dispelled. The same shit happened here.


----------



## Zihawk (Jul 18, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> That was him trying to FC the illusion in his head. Which led up to nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He FC’ed the illusion, and it just dispels it, it doesn’t make it jump to Gowther, it just disperses it’s effects. I never argued that FC would make Itachi mindfuck himself, but I did argue that FC would dispel the illusion. 

If it couldn’t dispel illusions, there would have been no interactions there, no flash of light and his cane wouldn’t have physically touched the illusion. Using FC allowed him to directly interact with the illusion.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 18, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> When Meliodas countered King's Disaster it didn't go back to King, it got dispelled. The same shit happened here.



Really ? Well, ok then, if that's the MO from FC in those cases, I concede, he used FC. Not that it really changes anything, Itachi was going to get raped anyway. 



Zihawk said:


> He FC’ed the illusion, and it just dispels it, it doesn’t make it jump to Gowther, it just disperses it’s effects. I never argued that FC would make Itachi mindfuck himself, but I did argue that FC would dispel the illusion.
> 
> If it couldn’t dispel illusions, there would have been no interactions there, no flash of light and his cane wouldn’t have physically touched the illusion. Using FC allowed him to directly interact with the illusion.



^ Conceded.


----------



## Steven (Jul 18, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> > Pre-cog
> > Itachi
> 
> *sigh*
> ...


Oh,sorry

Limited pre-cog


----------



## Steven (Jul 18, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Meliodas is thousands of times more agile, can make clones who can all oneshot Itachi, and they all of have AOE hellblaze/air sword strikes?
> 
> *Itachi can literally not even block a punch or his whole body will crumble to pieces.*


That was not the question but ok...

*True,Itachis physical strength is pretty weak*


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2018)

Acnologia said:


> That was not the question but ok...


It did. Itach isn't dodging meliodas lmao.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 18, 2018)

Acnologia said:


> Oh,sorry
> 
> Limited pre-cog



Movement reading would be a better term for it.


----------



## ho11ow (Jul 18, 2018)

He stop at Merlin, since her power level only 4k that mean she the weakest that can beat Itachi


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2018)

ho11ow said:


> He stop at Merlin, since her power level only 4k that mean she the weakest that can beat Itachi


Nah he stops earlier than that. 

Current Dreyfus, Gilthunder, one of the various Hendy forms and of course Vivian all come to mind of where he stops. Potentially someone even as low as Guilla depending on how the match plays out.


----------



## Mythoclast (Jul 18, 2018)

ho11ow said:


> He stop at Merlin, since her power level only 4k that mean she the weakest that can beat Itachi


No


----------



## Affectugender (Jul 18, 2018)

Chandler FC didn't do shit against Gowther illusion. The illusion was meant to distract him from the real attack by King and ended when the real attack was about to tag Chandler. Gowther also says now implying he knew how long to illusion was going to last too. Here is the scan


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 18, 2018)

Affectugender said:


> Chandler FC didn't do shit against Gowther illusion. The illusion was meant to distract him from the real attack by King and ended when the real attack was about to tag Chandler. Gowther also says now implying he knew how long to illusion was going to last too. Here is the scan


lmao, no.

Chand clearly dispells the illusion immediately after full countering it and it turning to mist. Gowther says now, because that was the moment where Chandlier was most vulnerable having just expended a full counter. It is literally explained in that panel.

Nice attempt at twisting there though lol


----------



## Zihawk (Jul 18, 2018)

Affectugender said:


> Chandler FC didn't do shit against Gowther illusion. The illusion was meant to distract him from the real attack by King and ended when the real attack was about to tag Chandler. Gowther also says now implying he knew how long to illusion was going to last too. Here is the scan



The scan you linked literally shoots your own argument in the foot. Gowther literally explains that the intent of the illusion 

was to bait him into full counter to break it. Nothing about the duration of the illusion LMAO. Grasp at more straws buddy 

you'll find the right one eventually.


----------



## Affectugender (Jul 19, 2018)

Zihawk said:


> The scan you linked literally shoots your own argument in the foot. Gowther literally explains that the intent of the illusion
> 
> was to bait him into full counter to break it. Nothing about the duration of the illusion LMAO. Grasp at more straws buddy
> 
> you'll find the right one eventually.



Yea I know the fucking scan explains the intent of the illusion but where does it say FC destroyed the illusion. The illusion served it purpose and was dispelled? is that hard to understand.




Dr. White said:


> lmao, no.
> 
> Chand clearly dispells the illusion immediately after full countering it and it turning to mist. Gowther says now, because that was the moment where Chandlier was most vulnerable having just expended a full counter. It is literally explained in that panel.
> 
> Nice attempt at twisting there though lol



Like I told the other guy did you both not read the last panel? There is literally no explanation about the illusion of getting FC. The fucking illusion turning into mist doesn't mean it was FC it can just mean it's getting dispelled.

Gowther puts an illusion of King attacking. Chandler tries to FC that thinking that's the attack but alas it was not. The illusion served it fucking purpose and disappeared and King attack. There is nothing in your and my scans that prove FC dispelled the illusion.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Affectugender said:


> Like I told the other guy did you both not read the last panel? There is literally no explanation about the illusion of getting FC. The fucking illusion turning into mist doesn't mean it was FC it can just mean it's getting dispelled.


Are you dense?

> Gowther puts him in an illusion.
> Chandlier "sees" the attack coming at him.
> He full counters.
> After interacting with the magic and us being shown visuals of FC hitting it, and the illusion dispersing we see Chandlier realize it was an illusion.
> Gowther explains "using full counter mid air breaks his stance, as a mage it should take 1second until he can use full counter again".

The plan was for him to full counter the illusion, he did which we saw on panel, then they hit him. Cut and dry.



> Gowther puts an illusion of King attacking. Chandler tries to FC that thinking that's the attack but alas it was not. The illusion served it fucking purpose and disappeared and King attack. There is nothing in your and my scans that prove FC dispelled the illusion.


except
> The plan was to bait his full counter.
> His fc clearly interacts with the magic and then dispels.
> He realizes it's an illusion after this and is freed from it.

We never see Gowther appeal to any timed illusion that you were trying to spin. Gowther knew that FC would dispel his magic, and thus knew they had to immediately punce on the 1 second gap. If FC couldn't dispel his illusion why wouldn't Gowther just have done the safer thing, and have Chandlier think he successfully blocked the attack back at them? The gap would have been much longer for them to hit him, but they didn't and the gap was one second because he dispelled the illusion.


----------



## Affectugender (Jul 19, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> > After interacting with the magic and us being shown visuals of FC hitting it, and the illusion dispersing we see Chandlier realize it was an illusion.



Again what I'm arguing is that you do not know what the visual for FC using on an illusion is. So prove the top left corner of the scan is the visual for FC working on an illusion. It could be also illusion dispelling due to time range.


----------



## uchihakil (Jul 19, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Lmao
> -Gowther can control inanimate objects like golems, or earth creations. He can also control the undead which Itachi can't.
> - Gowther doesn't need eye contact and can administer his mindfuck from touch or his light arrows from range.
> - Gowther can completely rewrite someones memories, and do so on a national scale to beings even such as gods immune to magic.
> ...



Just because i didn't list itachi's feats does'nt mean gowther is better.

> Itachi can mind control with genjutsu (which is a higher form of TP than mere illusion creation)

> Itachi can paralyse his opponents

> Itachi cast illusions so real that deidara almost killed himself.

> with izanagi one can rewrite reality, which shits on any illusion gowther has (does'nt require eyesight)

> with izanami he can alter peoples fate, which also shits on anything gowther has (doesn't require eyesight)

> with genjutsu one can enter a beings subconsciousness like how sasuke entered naruto's and suppressed kurama

> Itachi has tsukiyomi which is above gowthers version and can kill with it. See that? A genjutsu that can kill.

> Itachi can cast genjutsu with his finger (also doesn't require eyesight)

> sharingan provides a level of TP resistence, gowther got shat on in his own illusion

> itachi can reverse gejutsu on his opponent.

> kakashi was able to knockout 2 anbu members with genjutsu, itachi can do better.

As far as i'm concerned itachi's is more potent while gowther is a bit more versatile. And just cuz it worked on the demon king and he is immune to magic does'nt mean much here, because he has no TP defence that means his power cant defend against it. And galan being a sensor and getting fooled by an illusion is something itachi was praised by Ao for, itachi was said to be able to cast illusion that even the sensory hq (who are way better sensors than galan) can't detect. And of course, sensing does't provide resistance to illusions, so itachi is better in not being detected by sensors also.

Forgot to mention that itachi has feats of casting illusion on characters with illusion resistence (sharingan kakashi, kabuto and naruto after his genjutsu training) .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Keishin (Jul 19, 2018)

Izanami is useless in battle
Izanagi is not even mindfuck

"itachis is a but more potent"
The DK was mind fucked for over a million years.. Itachi cant even tuen people into puppets.

The sensory hq are fodder sensors.


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## Zihawk (Jul 19, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> *smh* not gonna entertain this stupid notion. It seems some people can't read manga to know what happened in the scan



Good thing your opinion is worth less than dirt. Your red rep precedes you my dude. Just remember that you didn’t even read the chapter because you believed that Chandler used Absolute Order on Gowther’s illusion, showing your complete lack of understanding towards Chandler’s powerset, and the chapter as a whole.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 19, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> > with izanagi one can rewrite reality, which shits on any illusion gowther has (does'nt require eyesight)



It can save Itachi if he was killed.

And twice.

After that he turns blind.



uchihakil said:


> > with izanami he can alter peoples fate, which also shits on anything gowther has (doesn't require eyesight)



It not only requires complicated steps(Time that Itachi doesn't have because he will get mauled by pretty much anything they can throw at him), but the way out of Izanami is ridiculously easy(Make peace with your mistakes and move on, basically) that is nothing really notable.



uchihakil said:


> > Itachi has tsukiyomi which is above gowthers version and can kill with it. See that? A genjutsu that can kill.



>  "A genjutsu that can kill"
> That literally killed zero people except fodder like Itachi's mom

topkek



uchihakil said:


> > Itachi can cast genjutsu with his finger (also doesn't require eyesight)




It literally involves Itachi pointing his finger at his target, how that doesn't require eyesight ? You are crazy, delusional, dumb or a mash of the three ?



Zihawk said:


> Good thing your opinion is worth less than dirt. Your red rep precedes you my dude. Just remember that you didn’t even read the chapter because you believed that Chandler used Absolute Order on Gowther’s illusion, showing your complete lack of understanding towards Chandler’s powerset, and the chapter as a whole.



Tbh, I had already read that chapter tho(It was actually in the next chapter that I took a break from NNT) and I remembered like that too, I guess hazy memory is hazy.


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## shunsui1 (Jul 19, 2018)

Itachi threads can't exist without at least 4 pages or More...


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## Keishin (Jul 19, 2018)

shunsui1 said:


> Itachi threads can't exist without at least 4 pages or More...


He can pretty much clear verses with Totsuka (bypass all dura), Yata (completely negate any attack, whether it be spiritual, or physical) and Genjutsu (no one can have resistance to tsukuyomi)


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## ho11ow (Jul 19, 2018)

Keishin said:


> He can pretty much clear verses with Totsuka (bypass all dura), Yata (completely negate any attack, whether it be spiritual, or physical) and Genjutsu (no one can have resistance to tsukuyomi)


Add, he also have Amaterasu which can burn for eternity and hotter than the sun


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## shunsui1 (Jul 19, 2018)

Keishin said:


> He can pretty much clear verses with Totsuka (bypass all dura), Yata (completely negate any attack, whether it be spiritual, or physical) and Genjutsu (no one can have resistance to tsukuyomi)



And he's not sick so there goes your only chance to beat him.


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Amaterasu has potentially planet level showings at its max potential. I would seriously like to be shown whenever a character has straight up tanked Amaterasu and not subverted it somehow.

>Nagato deflected it
>Danzo altered reality
>jiraiya sealed it
>Ay cut his arm off
>Obito transported it to his dimension
>Madara absorbed it
>the samurai was removed from his armour before it could kill him
>obito used his omnyouton on two separate occasions to negate it
>Sasuke had to manipulate it to save karin
>the ten tails split part off its body
>eight tails had to change form 

Didn’t Sasuke use Orochimaru’s snake body technique to avoid it too? Seriously, when has it ever been defeated? It sounds like hax to me with the reasonable limit being affecting juubi/obito tier characters and the low end hurting continent level characters like the eight tails.

The only debate to be had is on how fast it acts, that is what is inconsistent.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> >Nagato deflected it
> >Danzo altered reality
> >jiraiya sealed it
> >Ay cut his arm off
> ...



Fixed


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Karin is gay


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Karin is gay



Karin was entrusted with Lord Teuchi-sama-senpai's cloak.


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Damn boys we've done it. Planet level amaterasu.


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## shunsui1 (Jul 19, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Damn boys we've done it. Planet level amaterasu.


It was bound to happen eventually. Just like Universal Yhwach


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

uchihakil said:


> Just because i didn't list itachi's feats does'nt mean gowther is better.


Gowther is better.


> > Itachi can mind control with genjutsu (which is a higher form of TP than mere illusion creation)


And? Itachi can only mind control humans. Gowther can mind control as well, doesn't need eye contact, can do it from range, and can control non living or undead beings such as golems and vampires respectively. That shit's on Itachi. Check 1.



> > Itachi can paralyse his opponents


He can bind them, and even then it is not fullproof as we saw with Orochimaru who was able to slightly move in his attempt to Kai out of the illusion. Gowther can turn of your whole nervous system for 10s. That shits on Itachi. Check 2.



> > Itachi cast illusions so real that deidara almost killed himself.


Yes Itachi casted basic sensory illusions. Gowther did the same thing to Galan and had him believe he was cutting into the flesh of the sins and killing them. 



> > with izanagi one can rewrite reality, which shits on any illusion gowther has (does'nt require eyesight)


Show me a panel where it is shown, implied, or stated that Itachi knows Izanagi. 



> > with izanami he can alter peoples fate, which also shits on anything gowther has (doesn't require eyesight)


It is not fate manipulation, it is low tier brainwashing and only works on certain opponents. Gowther has brainwashed gods, and doesn't need the complicated set up to brainwash someone, just one touch.


> > with genjutsu one can enter a beings subconsciousness like how sasuke entered naruto's and suppressed kurama


That's cool, Gowther can do the same lol. He can also connect peoples minds to communicate like the yamanaka can. 



> > Itachi has tsukiyomi which is above gowthers version and can kill with it. See that? A genjutsu that can kill.


Gowther can theoretically kill with nightmare teller to. Tsukuyomi kills by a victim experiencing too much pain for their body to process. So if Gowther can do such then he would kill or disable as well. But yeah Tsukuyomi is slightly better.



> > Itachi can cast genjutsu with his finger (also doesn't require eyesight)


He can only cast deceptive illusions with his finger, and that is still leagues under gowthers tracking arrows.



> > sharingan provides a level of TP resistence, gowther got shat on in his own illusion


It only provides resistance to illusions that are transmitted visually. Gowther is a doll so sharingan wouldn't even work on him. 



> > itachi can reverse gejutsu on his opponent.


He can only reverse visual genjutsu once again, and he needs eye contact for this as well. 



> > kakashi was able to knockout 2 anbu members with genjutsu, itachi can do better.


Gowther knocked out 2 miles worth of Holy knights ranging from building level to small city, and can also knock out much stronger foes like escanor with his tracking blackout arrow. Try again.



> As far as i'm concerned itachi's is more potent while gowther is a bit more versatile.


Well you are wrong. Gowther's is much more potent, versatile, and qualitative. Itachi only beats him out with Tsukuyomi. Gowther has mindfucked two gods with resistance, Itachi can be resisted by Kai, sharingan users, MS users, etc. 



> And just cuz it worked on the demon king and he is immune to magic does'nt mean much here, because he has no TP defence that means his power cant defend against it.


This is just you being a dumbass and showing time and time again you know nothing about the series but will continue to talk as if you do to wank your series. 

Demon King is immune to all magic from pretty much anyone bar the supreme goddess. Which means all the mind hax in Nanatsu no Taizai can't affect him bar Gowther's strongest spell. That means every other aspect of invasion, Charm magic, Illusions like the type Merlin and Mera have, Ruin's sound based illusions, resistance to the commandment hax, etc. Fuck out of here trying to talk about what the DK immunity encompasses when you don't know shit.



> And galan being a sensor and getting fooled by an illusion is something itachi was praised by Ao for, itachi was said to be able to cast illusion that even the sensory hq (who are way better sensors than galan) can't detect.


No, he was praised for being the only ninja who would be able to cast illusions on a camp from outside those sensors distances that were already at the camp. Hence why the fucking sensors couldn't even sense the zetsu at first and needed reports to come in from Sakura and others before they knew anything about it and only saw people dissapearing. 

Shikaku even tells them to put sensors on the perimeter of the encampments.

Further more we already knew Itachi could do such (just not on the scale which Ao says himself). 
- He can already cast over range with crow genjutsu.
- He can control his victims (particularly fodder) from afar like what he did with the prostitute and Jiraiya for a distraction. 

Shikaku thought that Itachi was waiting outside the camps sensors range and casting his genjutsu on people and having them attack the camp remotely, which is why Ao says Itachi is the only genjutsu user he'd see capable but not across the vast majority of cases.

Furthermore none of the sensors are as good as galan lmao. They needed to morph their powers into the big ass ball of energy to be able to sense that far, and mostly get info from other people. A normal sensor can only read about a couple dozen meters or so, Galan can casualy sense for hundreds of miles. 




> And of course, sensing does't provide resistance to illusions, so itachi is better in not being detected by sensors also.


yes it does. Unless the illusions also fool the sixth sense than stuff will eventually start to not match up. If I think I stabbed a person I'm fighting but I sense their energy behind me, that's pretty much a dead ringer for illusions.



> Forgot to mention that itachi has feats of casting illusion on characters with illusion resistence (sharingan kakashi, kabuto and naruto after his genjutsu training) .


None of those people have any outright resistance, they have ways of escaping after being caught. Sharingan's have to actually see through the genjutsu first (which means you hav to be caught already) and only works vs visually induced illusions. Kabuto didn't have any resistance outside of him being able to sense with sage mode and snakes and therefore not need the use of his eyes (which were also covered with a scalera), and Itachi only got him by using his non visual genjutsu which happened to be tailor fit to beating Kabuto. So nah.


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Damn boys we've done it. Planet level amaterasu.



Seriously though. When has it been defeated?


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## shunsui1 (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Seriously though. When has it been defeated?



It hasn't been defeated but that doesn't make it planet level necessarily.It just makes it extremely broken if utilized the way it should be


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

>planet level threats have to take steps to stop it spreading. 

Pretty easy case to me. The low end is continent level here, and I’m satisfied with that.


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## Volt manta (Jul 19, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> > That literally killed zero people except fodder like Itachi's mom





Mr. Black Leg said:


> *Itachi's mom*


Man, too soon.


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> >planet level threats have to take steps to stop it spreading.
> 
> Pretty easy case to me. The low end is continent level here, and I’m satisfied with that.


*island level


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

The juubi is continent level in its weaker form lmao. 

The eight tails is solidly continent level also. 

So no.


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> The juubi is continent level in its weaker form lmao.
> 
> The eight tails is solidly continent level also.
> 
> So no.


Good thing it didn't solo either and works via island level DOT as opposed to straight damage at once.


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Literally harming either character at all is a continent level feat. 

Nice try.


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Literally harming either character at all is a continent level feat.
> 
> Nice try.


Damn, I burnt myself with a match, guess all my matches are street to building level.


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Trying to equate fucking fictional characters that can eat petatons for breakfast and ask for more to some bullshit real life shit with matches is definitely the most retarded thing I’ve seen today. 

Notice how he says that it’s somehow only island level and not say country level. Coincidentally the same level as NNT side


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Trying to equate fucking fictional characters that can eat petatons for breakfast and ask for more to some bullshit real life shit with matches is definitely the most retarded thing I’ve seen today.
> 
> Notice how he says that it’s somehow only island level and not say country level. Coincidentally the same level as NNT side


Yes because I am the one who arbitrated for amaterasu to be island level. Just pulled it out of thin air, not a consensus thing or anything.

Come back when you understand what aoe damage means, and how to scale.


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

how to scale?

>juubi can literally blow itself up fine with no issues at all
>has to split itself off to stop itself being destroyed despite being this powerful



Really makes me think


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> how to scale?
> 
> >juubi can literally blow itself up fine with no issues at all
> >has to split itself off to stop itself being destroyed despite being this powerful
> ...


Juubito blew himself up point blank range, yet got his shit drilled in by a sage mode rasengan. 

Continental rasengan confirmed.

Sakura punched kaguya and actually effected her. Planet level War arc sakura a go. 

Karin survived amaterasu on her for multiple seconds. Guess that uzumaki vitality is planet level.

Fodder samurai having the heat of the sun inches away from his skin? No problem cause them samurais are planet level.

Old decrepit nagato sitting with amaterasu on his body for several seconds? No problem, nagato won't be immediately burnt to ashes, just a little arm burn cause he is planet level.

Remember when the juubi was bothered by shit like ranton? All continent level.


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Such has a dishonest little shit he willfully ignores stuff like senjutsu specially affecting obito, or the fact I said the burn time for amaterasu is inconsistent and debatable.

Still no evidence of times Amaterasu has been tanked. Goes into aoe full well aware of how inconsistent it is in the very franchise he will wank off to the ends of the earth.

Literally cannot fathom NNT ever losing to anyone ever and can’t just be satisfied that it’s a good series and naruto is not.

Fuck off Dr ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

When has Amaterasu been tanked, whitey


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Lmao
> senjutsu just allowed them to effect obito past onmyouton and his passive defense against ninjutsu. It didn't make rasengan continental level. 
> never said ama was tanked so idk why I'd have to provide evidence for that.
> claims he excepts the inconsistency of amaterasu yet championed it being planet level and claimed "he was fine with consensus on continental level" here despite no such consensus ever being reached.

Keep trying kaant. Maybe you'll get that galactic toriko as well


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> When has Amaterasu been tanked, whitey


What do you not get about island level fire doing DoT that stays attached to a person until extinguished or dealt with don't you understand?


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> It didn't make rasengan continental level.



I don’t care about whatever this bullshit is. You’re brining it up not me. 



Dr. White said:


> > never said ama was tanked so idk why I'd have to provide evidence for that.



Then why are you even talking when I’m talking about it. 



Dr. White said:


> > claims he excepts the inconsistency of amaterasu yet championed it being planet level and claimed "he was fine with consensus on continental level" here despite no such consensus ever being reached.



I never said anything on a consensus. You are genuinely retarded if you can’t see how your previous statement literally contradicts you now. 



Dr. White said:


> Keep trying kaant. Maybe you'll get that galactic toriko as well



I don’t need to Dr ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".). When neo literally throws galaxies, what do you call that?

I don’t need to wank off multipliers and things that haven’t been accepted for other series.


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> What do you not get about island level fire doing DoT that stays attached to a person until extinguished or dealt with don't you understand?



Explain why it’s island level when it hurt Eight tails as soon as it touched him.


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## Steven (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> >planet level threats have to take steps to stop it spreading.
> 
> Pretty easy case to me. The low end is continent level here, and I’m satisfied with that.


You forgot 1 thing


Kaguya froze BOTH,Naruto and Sasuke and no one of them was able to break out without Amaterasu

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> I don’t care about whatever this bullshit is. You’re brining it up not me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You don't care because it's evidence contrary to your argument, this is the same reaponse given when black leg called you out. So when proven wrong you just "don't care"? Good to know.

Because I am proving your argument wrong but your so lost in what's being discussed it's like trying to take a checkers player and let them play 10D chess.

Yes you did, you claimed "the low end here" which implies consensus


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Explain why it’s island level when it hurt Eight tails as soon as it touched him.


Please re read the post you quoted again and respond.


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Because continent level juubi is the accepted low end. And senjutsu has special characteristics which you are aware of. 



Dr. White said:


> Because I am proving your argument wrong but your so lost in what's being discussed it's like trying to take a checkers player and let them play 10D chess.



Yeah lmao, you’re really smart.


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Because continent level juubi


for the Juubi.



> And senjutsu has special characteristics which you are aware of.


Yes. Obito was immune to ninjutsu which did not possess natural energy. Naruto added sage energy to his rasengan. Naruto injured him. Therefore by your logic that rasengan is continental level. Which means a whole slew of high tiers now become continental. 

Idk why think it being senjutsu magically made it eat Obito's back out. It had nothing to do with it, as Juubito was strong enough to physically toss aside Hashi's barriers, break the violet barrier with his hands, and survive Tobirama's never ending explosions. All of which are physical feats >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regular rasengan. But by your logic "it harmed Juubito" so it's continental level.




> Yeah lmao, you’re really smart.


admittance is the first step.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 19, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Damn, I burnt myself with a match, guess all my matches are street to building level.



I have nothing to do with this thread or either series

I do however want to point out your example here is grade A garbage and lacks a fundamental understanding of how fire works

...

On second reading, I'm not even sure you understood what you were trying to say 

Why does burning yourself with a match suddenly contextualize the power of a match as you've lain it out? Were you trying to imply something about your own durability? The power of the fire? What's the range stem from?

Do you fundamentally believe that a match sized fire somehow has the raw energy of a fire that's grown to the size of a building?

Would saying "keep surface area in mind" mean anything to you? Or would I be giving you too much credit to understand what I'm getting at without offering up another paragraph or two on energy density and such fun shit across a given meter squared?

Maybe I need to read the rest of this cancer to get the nuance, but feel free to fill me in on what I missed out on


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I have nothing to do with this thread or either series
> 
> I do however want to point out your example here is grade A garbage and lacks a fundamental understanding of how fire works
> 
> ...


From the whole argument you took my joking one liner out and decided to go on a full multi pargraph rant on trying to flex some sort of mental muscle by pointing out how it "doesn't work" while allowing the actual point to fly over your head? Nice chaos, maybe shine up the old boots first.

The whole point was while the Juubi may be continent level, that doesn't mean it can just lol at an inextinguishable fire that does island level damage every segment of time. I was grossly comparing the pain of match to my arm hurting me and causing me to put out being something akin here. I realize that the fucking actual area of fire of a match actually doing damage to my cells is not directly comparable, and it wasn't supposed to lmao. Not sure if bought of autism or..?


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Jesus Christ man this guy will literally start shit with anyone that ever disagrees with him. 

1000% cancer.


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Jesus Christ man this guy will literally start shit with anyone that ever disagrees with him.
> 
> 1000% cancer.


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> island level damage every segment of time.



You just made this up yourself. Digging yourself a deeper hole lmao. The fact it damages a continent level character implies it’s that level.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> You just made this up yourself. Digging yourself a deeper hole lmao. The fact it damages a continent level character implies it’s that level.


> Amaterasu does damage.
> It is fire that sticks on the opponent and continuously burns them.

Kaant: "It doesn't do damage > time!".

Did you miss where amaterasu beat out cerberus specifically due to this quality?

Unless you are talking about it being island level, in which case I refer you once again to the standard consensus across threads in the OBD.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 19, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> From the whole argument you took my joking one liner out



>Gets called on a poor rebuttal
>It's a joke bro 

Come on now, at least try to be entertaining 


> and decided to go on a full multi pargraph rant on trying to flex some sort of mental muscle by pointing out how it "doesn't work" while allowing the actual point to fly over your head?



No, I was pointing out how you failed to even make a point as none of the "joke" flowed together in any coherent manner

But wait, it was all a joke and this implies it wasn't supposed to add to the discussion in the first place

Silly me 



> The whole point was while the Juubi may be continent level, that doesn't mean it can just lol at an inextinguishable fire that does island level damage every segment of time.



Petatons vs Gigatons

Let's do some basic math

What's the difference in magnitude?

1,000,000+?

So, for this island level fire to exert equivalent energy, not even getting into how there's no direct correlation between damage over time and total energy exerted?

I'm pretty sure the attack isn't hitting its target for 1,000,000s of times longer than an attack millions of times stronger than it would last



> I was grossly comparing the pain of match to my arm hurting me and causing me to put out being something akin here.



You're getting warmer, but you're now channeling Saint Rider


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

You see Chaos, Whitey was merely _pretending _to be retarded


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

He also pulled island level out of his ass.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> You see Chaos, Whitey was merely _pretending _to be retarded



Like, I'm cool having someone explain to me my post and interpretation of their's is wrong

I'm human, we fuck up all the time

But he chooses to call it a joke?

As if that somehow saves him from being analyzed and dissected?



Kaaant said:


> He also pulled island level out of his ass.



Don't know, don't care

Just working with what I'm given to illustrate why it doesn't matter *shrugs*

South of island level makes it worse for him while going north to country level doesn't help him out much either anyway


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> >Gets called on a poor rebuttal
> >It's a joke bro
> 
> Come on now, at least try to be entertaining


I'm sorry, I forgot to add my autism settings for people who couldn't make out the 1 line sentence (out of pages of actual argument) with the obvious tone of someone being sarcastic being a joke. Will amend in the future.




> No, I was pointing out how you failed to even make a point as none of the "joke" flowed together in any coherent manner
> 
> But wait, it was all a joke and this implies it wasn't supposed to add to the discussion in the first place
> 
> Silly me


Yes because the point was that someone can be bothered by attacks lower than what we scale them to particularly in the case of DoT.





> Petatons vs Gigatons
> 
> Let's do some basic math
> 
> ...


Except in this specific case it explcitly shown to be potent because of the characteristic of it sticking to a target and continuously burning them. In multiple instances.



> So, for this island level fire to exert equivalent energy, not even getting into how there's no direct correlation between damage over time and total energy exerted?


See above, and yes it does? Island level fire continuously burning over time is going to begin stacking. 




> I'm pretty sure the attack isn't hitting its target for 1,000,000s of times longer than an attack millions of times stronger than it would last


Pretty sure it does given Amaterasu's range of DC, and the fact that in most instances it is the effect over time doing the damage. It has gone from instantly incinerating a fire resistant toad stomach to needing time to injure someone or burn them in general. Cerberus regened from the island level damage from FRS, amaterasu did the job because it is DoT. Killer Bee was put of commission because he couldn't get rid of the amaterasu flames. 





> You're getting warmer, but you're now channeling Saint Rider


Almost mustered a laugh there.


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> He also pulled island level out of his ass.


lmao at Kaant shamelessly running to Chaos and being active now 

and once again island level is the accepted result for a while now


----------



## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

I’m not running to him at all. I never asked for his input. 

I just think it’s funny watching you get shat on. 

Island level Amaterasu literally was not a thing till I started talking about it.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 19, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> I'm sorry, I forgot to add my autism settings for people who couldn't make out the 1 line sentence (out of pages of actual argument) with the obvious tone of someone being sarcastic being a joke. Will amend in the future.



You were quoting someone offering up an argument

Not my fault even that much fell flat and died *shrugs*



> Yes because the point was that someone can be bothered by attacks lower than what we scale them to particularly in the case of DoT.



A bit more nuanced than that

Mostly reliant on surface area

And the "joke" you made didn't even imply this much beyond segueing into a non-sequitur about street level to building level



> Except in this specific case it explcitly shown to be potent because of the characteristic of it sticking to a target and continuously burning them. In multiple instances.



And I'm sure those instances combined result in millions of instances of time 



> See above, and yes it does? Island level fire continuously burning over time is going to begin stacking.



Just to be clear, you're claiming the time the fire is on this fucker is equivalent to the gulf between 1 second and about half a month?




> Pretty sure it does given Amaterasu's range of DC, and the fact that in most instances it is the effect over time doing the damage.



Which ignores how the energy it exerts over time would need to come within spitting range of the material its burning to begin taking any effect in the first place

If it can't overcome the matter's specific heat capacity to raise its temperature, let alone in a timely manner, the heat's not going to affect anything



> It has gone from instantly incinerating a fire resistant toad stomach to needing time to injure someone or burn them in general. Cerberus regened from the island level damage from FRS, amaterasu did the job because it is DoT. Killer Bee was put of commission because he couldn't get rid of the amaterasu flames.



I have no context on the series to supply an explanation for why it sounds so retardedly inconsistent

Figure you could post scans?


----------



## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

The rate of burning is the only thing that’s debatable chaos, not its dc or the certainty that anything hit directly with it is dead in verse

It literally starts hurting bee as soon as it hits him


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> The rate of burning is the only thing that’s debatable chaos, not its dc or the certainty that anything hit directly with it is dead in verse
> 
> It literally starts hurting bee as soon as it hits him



How durable is Bee? What feat makes him that durable? If not feat, what powerscaling?

Like I said to start, I know nothing about either series

I saw a long thread, read the first page, wondered why it lasted so long and skipped to the final page at the time and read no further than post 2 of that page before I figured I found something to comment on *shrugs*


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Jul 19, 2018)

Bee can withstand a small country level attack without being ko'd iirc. He was still conscious after getting hit with his own charged Bijuudama which has a calc in the low single digit teratons. Might be missing some details, though, been years since I last read Nardo

Juubi is continent+ from one of it's own feats as well

Here are some scans that probably should've been posted a while ago, if they haven't been already. Too much shit to wade through to try & look

Vs B



Vs Juubi


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 19, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Bee can withstand a small country level attack without being ko'd iirc. He was still conscious after getting hit with his own charged Bijuudama which has a calc in the low single digit teratons. Might be missing some details, though, been years since I last read Nardo



Aren't these things themselves in possession of a significant heat energy component with some concussive force too?

And it was only a danger to KO his ass rather than vaporize the matter it was composed of?

Seems pretty straight forward to me if so *shrugs*



> Juubi is continent+ from one of it's own feats as well



It was hit by its own attack too?

Similar heat energy type shit on top of concussive force?



> Here are some scans that probably should've been posted a while ago, if they haven't been already. Too much shit to wade through to try & look
> 
> Vs B
> 
> ...



I mean, as I mentioned, to even feel pain in the first place indicates the flames are able to raise the temperature of the effected matter

If the bijuudama didn't prove anymore efficient in doing so, its a decent feat for the flames to harm them *shrugs*


----------



## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> How durable is Bee? What feat makes him that durable? If not feat, what powerscaling?
> 
> Like I said to start, I know nothing about either series
> 
> I saw a long thread, read the first page, wondered why it lasted so long and skipped to the final page at the time and read no further than post 2 of that page before I figured I found something to comment on *shrugs*



Being the second largest contributor out of nine in power to a being that can supply this level of energy for a start.



Jackal also posted some good scans too.

In every instance of Amaterasu being used it’s either had to be separated from the user via the removal of limbs or clothing, or absorbed/sealed away.

As soon as it hit bee it had him screaming in pain.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> You were quoting someone offering up an argument
> 
> Not my fault even that much fell flat and died *shrugs*


actually I was in a multi page debate with someone and after tiring of their arguments decided to make a one line joke, which you apparently thought was an analogy at the crux of my argument and decided to take paragraphs to dissect. Not my fault you couldn't perceive that. 




> A bit more nuanced than that
> 
> Mostly reliant on surface area


and in this case there was a fuck ton of it.

lest we also forget the fire was being amped by Nardo's FRS.


> And the "joke" you made didn't even imply this much beyond segueing into a non-sequitur about street level to building level


Yes my joke was about street to building level stuff was clearly just that, a joke. Not sure how you meandered in here, missed the actual argument, and then saw that and decided "I should thoroughly respond to this "argument"". *shrugs*. 





> And I'm sure those instances combined result in millions of instances of time


Given that amaterasu has failed to kill Karin despite her only being in a cloak, and failed to injure a fodder samurai who only had been covered in armor, was thwarted by Gaara's basic sand, and was barely affecting the city level Raikage (pain wise, he had to cut his arm to keep it from spreading) and yet has "harmed" Killer Bee who has taken Country+ level explosions to the face (not continental but still > island level) I'm gonna go ahead and say that's the case. 





> Just to be clear, you're claiming the time the fire is on this fucker is equivalent to the gulf between 1 second and about half a month?


nope.





> Which ignores how the energy it exerts over time would need to come within spitting range of the material its burning to begin taking any effect in the first place
> 
> If it can't overcome the matter's specific heat capacity to raise its temperature, let alone in a timely manner, the heat's not going to affect anything


What about when it's amped by say magic ninja Island level winds, in a verse where Amaterasu is not only the strongest fire, but canonically gets amped by fuuton?





> I have no context on the series to supply an explanation for why it sounds so retardedly inconsistent
> 
> Figure you could post scans?


Ok so then why are you trying to apply actual logic to scenes which have been inconsistent of themselves? 

Here is amaterasu's first appearence. Jiraiya summons a toad to encapsulate Itachi and Itachi immediately burns through it's stomach as he's being closed in on.


Next relevant one is Sasuke using it vs Hachibi (easily country level in durability)


*Spoiler*: __ 








Bee tries to extinguish the flames, and is in pain. Sasuke thinks he burns him out but it turns out Killer Bee escaped, and he only captured a clone. 

During said usage his fodder friend Karin is hit with some and survives being ablaze for multiple seconds, only to come out with a burnt cloak.


Then we see city level Raikage smash into amaterasu and get his arm on fire. He has to cut it off but he's in no pain.

*Spoiler*: __ 









Here is a legit fodder samurai being covered in the flames for some time before being saved by some puppet dude who gets the armor off of him.


Here is the feat where Itachi uses it to stop a regenerating dog who just ate a KCM FRS (the move that powers up amaterasu vs the juubi), Itachi lights it on fire and lets it spread which takes the dog out. 

Nagato was also set ablaze and we see the injuries to him here before he shoots it off.


Here is a being who absorbed the Jinchuriki (also continent level), eating a direct amaterasu/FRS combo.


Here is when Sasuke uses a ton of amaterasu on the Juubi while it's held down who then slaughs it off



Madara hit straight in the back and not effected


Here it melts ice from Kaguya's ice world (Kaguya didn't make this ice)


Kaguya eats that shit to the face


Pretty much all relevant scans to amaterasu. It's major feats are:
- Hurting Hachibi.
- Causing the Juubi to slough it off while it was trapped.

It gets scaled to FRS and has the property of doing said immense damage over time as we saw with the cerberus.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Also should be pointed out that Hachibi's durability itself can be inconsistent with City level Raikage using his Raiton to cut of it's horn. Is he continental now too?


----------



## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

He’s obviously not city level if he’s doing that.



Dr. White said:


> Madara hit straight in the back and not effected



You’re lying through your teeth as the next page states Madara absorbed the Jutsu.



Still no proof of anyone doing anything to amaterasu except subverting it.


----------



## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Here is a being who absorbed the Jinchuriki (also continent level), eating a direct amaterasu/FRS combo.
> *Spoiler*:


You seem to willfully be forgetting obito removed it with Jutsu cancelling techniques


----------



## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

We can clearly see in that panel he’s damaged with smoke coming off his skin. 

He didn’t tank anything.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> He’s obviously not city level if he’s doing that.


So ignore verse portrayal, feats of his own, and logical powerscaling and take this feat, and move Ei and pretty much every Naruto high tier up to continental level, so that they equal the strongest being in Naruto shippuden besides Kaguya. ok buddy. 



> You’re lying through your teeth as the next page states Madara absorbed the Jutsu.


They thought he did because he previously had rinnengan. On that very same page we see that Madara lost the rinnengan and needed to get the real ones back. Which is why Hashi questions why he closes his eyes.

Not to mention that Madara was on fire with amaterasu directly touching him for how many panels? He literally sits their ablaze and calls it childs play.


Also the only time the Juubi was hurt was when Amaterasu was amped by FRS. When Sasuke tried to do it alone (while juubi was trapped) the juubi didn't scream out like you claimed and simply sloughed it off. Juubito also ate a direct FRS/Amaterasu combo.

So yeah continental level?


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> We can clearly see in that panel he’s damaged with smoke coming off his skin.
> 
> He didn’t tank anything.


He's *barely* damaged from the COMBINED efforts of those two. amaterasu literally being amped by BM FRS. Yet regular amaterasu is the same level?


----------



## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> feats of his own,



>literally hurts the eight tails and tanks his attacks with no damage.
>city level

You are mentally unwell.



Dr. White said:


> They thought he did because he previously had rinnengan. On that very same page we see that Madara lost the rinnengan and needed to get the real ones back. Which is why Hashi questions why he closes his eyes.
> 
> Not to mention that Madara was on fire with amaterasu directly touching him for how many panels? He literally sits their ablaze and calls it childs play.



It’s literally fucking stated he absorbed the Jutsu.



Dr. White said:


> Also the only time the Juubi was hurt was when Amaterasu was amped by FRS



Doesn’t matter. Wasn’t tanked. Ever. Period. End of story. It was avoided every time.

And yet the juubi cut it off. Naruto helping is a bonus to him and not a route you want to go down. 


Dr. White said:


> He's *barely* damaged from the COMBINED efforts of those two



Because he fucking stopped it lmao. Are you retarded? I think you are, do have any idea what it means that they hurt a >>>>>>continent level character?


----------



## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

>physically harms a character so far above this level of power it’s not even funny

FORGIVER

“Yeah but barely”

Fuck off.


----------



## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Look what happens when the juubi tries to blow itself up



Not a single NNT character with island level stats is doing comparable damage to the juubi as what amaterasu has consistently done.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 19, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> actually I was in a multi page debate with someone and after tiring of their arguments decided to make a one line joke



A one line joke in response to a one line argument

Ergo, a rebuttal.

And as a "joke" it still falls flat as the response itself was asinine in presentation

You fucked up, its fine, it doesn't invalidate anything else you've said in this thread *shrugs*

That said, maybe revise your analogy/joke and make it actually relevant to the thread? Because this really does amount to "I'm only pretending to be stupid" as you currently have it sitting



> which you apparently thought was an analogy at the crux of my argument



No, pretty sure I think it was just a poor part of your argument 

The rest of your argument?

Haven't read it

Only figured I'd point out the weakness of what I could see



> and decided to take paragraphs to dissect.



It's almost like this is a debate forum, centered around debate, and I was reading a poorly constructed rebuttal and figured I'd point out what falls flat 



> and in this case there was a fuck ton of it.



Blocked on my end

Try imgur? *shrugs*



> lest we also forget the fire was being amped by Nardo's FRS.



Now, if that's the circumstance, you have a valid argument



> Yes my joke was about street to building level stuff was clearly just that, a joke.



A joke, mind you, that was functioning as a rebuttal

In a debate thread

I'm not unfamiliar to comedy and snark

I employ it around here all the time

If the "joke" fails to hold substance towards what it wants to convey, its a shit rebuttal and joke in the context its being employed *shrugs*



> Not sure how you meandered in here, missed the actual argument, and then saw that and decided "I should thoroughly respond to this "argument"". *shrugs*.



Boils down to

>Saw long thread
>Bored, figured I'd see if something decent was going on
>Read first page, seemed fairly civil
>Wondered why it lasted so long
>Skipped to the last page, read the first two posts, and thought I'd comment on a rebuttal I know to be flawed in the context the two provided

Whether it was the core of your argument or merely a tangent? Didn't matter. Poor is poor and should be pointed out so it can be revised and strengthened




> Given that amaterasu has failed to kill Karin despite her only being in a cloak, and failed to injure a fodder samurai who only had been covered in armor, was thwarted by Gaara's basic sand, and was barely affecting the city level Raikage (pain wise, he had to cut his arm to keep it from spreading) and yet has "harmed" Killer Bee who has taken Country+ level explosions to the face (not continental but still > island level) I'm gonna go ahead and say that's the case.



Sounds more like the attack is inconsistent and you fuckers need to figure out which reconcile with which in the narrative and cut off the branches that don't fit the final puzzle

Alternatively, some of the variables you're mentioning could be stronger than previously given credit for rather than be used as downplay (thinking the Sand and Raikage rather than the bitch that doesn't even have her cloak burnt or the samurai)

All that being said, I wouldn't conclude its rate of exertion over time as they first need to be able to alter the temperature of the matter being interacted with to begin effecting it

Which kind of requires bypassing a component of durability.



> nope.



If something that's continent level exerts its power all in the span of 1 second, it would take something millions of times weaker about half a month to exert that same energy by comparison, so that's kind of how it comes off as

Shift around the ratio to whatever fractions of a second the attacks last on the higher end of power or whatever, I just figured I'd convey the absurdity in a range more commonly understood first *shrugs*



> What about when it's amped by say magic ninja Island level winds, in a verse where Amaterasu is not only the strongest fire, but canonically gets amped by fuuton?



Like I said, if another attack was amping it in a given instance?

This is a valid argument against that particular instance



> Ok so then why are you trying to apply actual logic to scenes which have been inconsistent of themselves?



Pretty sure I never even directly discussed Amaterasu?

I addressed your example, then addressed some hypothetical gigaton level attack vs petaton level attack and the time it would take the gigaton level attack to exert the energy of the petaton level one



> Here is amaterasu's first appearence. Jiraiya summons a toad to encapsulate Itachi and Itachi immediately burns through it's stomach as he's being closed in on.



How durable are the Toads supposed to be?



> Next relevant one is Sasuke using it vs Hachibi (easily country level in durability)
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Alright, had seen this one just before your post

Cool



> During said usage his fodder friend Karin is hit with some and survives being ablaze for multiple seconds, only to come out with a burnt cloak.



Wait, burnt cloak?

Like, not entirely incinerated?

Clothing damage being non-indicative of attack power in any given franchise this side of shonen aside?

Let's work on the premise it does? Why would the fire failing to burn her and the cloak not be treated as an outlier low end in the context of the scene itself (namely harming the giant powerful demon)? Or, alternatively, it'd say something about the fodder' bitch's durability instead (not likely if she's consistently been harmed by weaker, but still a consideration)



> Then we see city level Raikage smash into amaterasu and get his arm on fire. He has to cut it off but he's in no pain.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



What makes him only city level I guess? You conflate using the numbers derived by calcs as being a hard cap rather than just informing us of a given feat's potency

As expecting all feats in a given series to genuinely fall into a nicely ordered and organized logical fashion is asinine, it comes to playing connect the dots to determine if something is stronger than previously calced feats attribute to them.

As for not being in pain... that can just be due to the fire destroying his nerves faster than the Demon's would have been or Raikage has a higher tolerance for it thus acts like less of a bitch when in pain *shrugs*



> Here is a legit fodder samurai being covered in the flames for some time before being saved by some puppet dude who gets the armor off of him.



Seems like an outlier in the same vain as the Karin moment

Though honestly, organizing which showings are legit and which are outliers should be left up to the fuckers that read this series, not me commenting on little snippets I suppose *shrugs*



> Here is the feat where Itachi uses it to stop a regenerating dog who just ate a KCM FRS (the move that powers up amaterasu vs the juubi), Itachi lights it on fire and lets it spread which takes the dog out.



The things to take from this is that the fire incinerates the dog's matter faster than it can regenerate

Which is pretty substantial especially depending on how harmed the previous attack left it



> Nagato was also set ablaze and we see the injuries to him here before he shoots it off.



Seems like another instance that could be construed as someone being more durable than being currently given credit for as an outsider looking in



> Here is a being who absorbed the Jinchuriki (also continent level), eating a direct amaterasu/FRS combo.



How durable is it to accomplish this?



> Here is when Sasuke uses a ton of amaterasu on the Juubi while it's held down who then slaughs it off



Seems decent as you don't remove matter that not in danger of being damaged or having it spread further

Is this an instance amped by FRS? How durable is the Juubi? From what feat?



> Madara hit straight in the back and not effected
> 
> 
> Here it melts ice from Kaguya's ice world (Kaguya didn't make this ice)
> ...



I take it these were just for completion's sake?

I have no idea how to judge these as I don't know how durable they are


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 19, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Also let's not forget planet level Sakura for this
> 
> 
> "Do YoU kNoW hOw MuCh EnErGy Is NeEdEd To BrEaK kAgUyA's HoRn!!!!!!!!!!"



No, that is a feat

Whether its an outlier or not is the question

I'm not sure why that's flying over your head


----------



## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

It is. 

You were right when you said he’s trying to hard apply fallible fan calcs to the manga. He’s literally saying x character cannot be a certain level of strength because calcs contradict it. 

It’s pigshit retarded.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 19, 2018)

im fine with bumping Ama and EMS Sauce/Itachi(?) to country level. Everyone gets an upgrade because fuck it haha

that would bump up quite a few others too tbh



ChaosTheory123 said:


> No, that is a feat
> 
> Whether its an outlier or not is the question
> 
> I'm not sure why that's flying over your head


its an outlier, she previously took hits from a Naruto that could turn Sakura into a stain with 1 hit.


----------



## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

If it’s not an outlier it’s the worst instance of power creep in the series. She’s implied by the way she’s portrayed to be ok equal footing with Sasuke and naruto even though they’ve taken several upgrades along the way and she hasn’t.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> If it’s not an outlier it’s the worst instance of power creep in the series. She’s implied by the way she’s portrayed to be ok equal footing with Sasuke and naruto even though they’ve taken several upgrades along the way and she hasn’t.


lolno, she states _more than once_ that she couldn't stop Sasuke from fighting Naruto and would be useless in the fight with Kaguya.

Unless she is just lying to the reader for some unimaginable reason


----------



## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

I’m referring at points up until that point when her head mark first appeared.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> I’m referring at points up until that point when her head mark first appeared.


okay? shes still not within even a fraction of Naruto and Sasuke's power at that point. Naruto could throw one chakra arm at her (which are insanely casual for him to use) and she would die.


----------



## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

Ok? I never said the attempt at painting her as their equal wasn’t bullshit, can you not read where I said it was retarded?


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Blocked on my end
> 
> Try imgur? *shrugs*
> 
> ...


 
Should work.

and yes, Naruto adds a potent FRS which combines with Sasuke's amaterasu (enton) arrow and it hits Juubi. THIS is the time where Juubi screams and is in visible pain.




> Sounds more like the attack is inconsistent and you fuckers need to figure out which reconcile with which in the narrative and cut off the branches that don't fit the final puzzle


Which we did and island level (scaling from Fuuton Rasenshuriken which is also Naruto's move that is analogous) was the result.



> Alternatively, some of the variables you're mentioning could be stronger than previously given credit for rather than be used as downplay (thinking the Sand and Raikage rather than the bitch that doesn't even have her cloak burnt or the samurai)


Her cloak was burnt right through to her back. For multiple panels. 





> If something that's continent level exerts its power all in the span of 1 second, it would take something millions of times weaker about half a month to exert that same energy by comparison, so that's kind of how it comes off as


Yes logically. Here we don't have that. We have a seriously inconsistent move that has had several effects and potencies through various showings.




> How durable are the Toads supposed to be?


Like city level, island level max. Pein broke the bones of every one of SM Naruto's toads with an ST. So somewhere in that range probably more toward city level. 





> Wait, burnt cloak?
> 
> Like, not entirely incinerated?
> 
> Clothing damage being non-indicative of attack power in any given franchise this side of shonen aside?


I mean you said it yourself.
to even hurt Bee it must be some crazy level of energy right? Bee is country level and he felt pain immediately. 

So then wouldn't Karin have been much more injured? Mind you the whole point of the scene was to outline Karin being in danger as well. 



> Why would the fire failing to burn her and the cloak not be treated as an outlier low end in the context of the scene itself (namely harming the giant powerful demon)? Or, alternatively, it'd say something about the fodder' bitch's durability instead (not likely if she's consistently been harmed by weaker, but still a consideration)


Not sure you understand the gaps here. Karin is fodder. She is durable and can heal, but at max is like town level. 

the whole point of all these examples is that amaterasu is fucking everywhere. Why discard multiple low ends for a high end that doesn't make much sense? It didn't just happen once on low end but multiple times?

I can buy it hurting Hachibi, but to try and use the fact that Juubi sloughs off an annoying attack while it's trying to get it's head out of a trap? Yeah no. 





> What makes him only city level I guess? You conflate using the numbers derived by calcs as being a hard cap rather than just informing us of a given feat's potency



What do you mean? Raikage is city level because...that's where feats, portrayal, and scaling deem him to be?

No I am not lmao. But at the same time there is a huge fucking gap between the city level raikage who can't even bust post ribcage susanoo by himself, to comparing him to the likes of Bjuu and the Juubi. It shits on internal logic.



> As expecting all feats in a given series to genuinely fall into a nicely ordered and organized logical fashion is asinine, it comes to playing connect the dots to determine if something is stronger than previously calced feats attribute to them.


Yes and in this case Ei is Frieza arc Krillen, and Juubi is Frieza. 

You're telling me if some bullshit, inconsistent attack, bothered frieza, and then Krillen survived it with maiming that Krillen would be scaled to Frieza? Even if it makes no sense for Krillen tier fighter to be on that level? Nah bro.

It is completely outlier territory for Raikage to be in continental range lmao. BM Nardo would kill him 700 times over with the flick of his wrist dude . BM Naruto <<< Juubi and Juubito.



> As for not being in pain... that can just be due to the fire destroying his nerves faster than the Demon's would have been or Raikage has a higher tolerance for it thus acts like less of a bitch when in pain *shrugs*


I mean I doubt it given that it didn't even cauterize the wound, and he needed Shi to close it up.




> The things to take from this is that the fire incinerates the dog's matter faster than it can regenerate
> 
> Which is pretty substantial especially depending on how harmed the previous attack left it


Yes, but FRS unleashes its energy all at once. amaterasu remains lit which is why it one out. I highly doubt the dog would have beaten FRS cell destroying potency if it lasted as long as amaterasu.




> Seems like another instance that could be construed as someone being more durable than being currently given credit for as an outsider looking in


I think this is your problem...Without context as to the powerscale of Naruto and where certain characters fit in, it may sound like less nonsense. 




> How durable is it to accomplish this?


It is continent level and once again that is country level BM Nardo adding his FRS to Sasuke's amaterasu, and once again it barely injures him.





> Seems decent as you don't remove matter that not in danger of being damaged or having it spread further


I mean I don't really agree with this. Even if Juubito is not gonna get damaged, its still fire and annoying and Juubidama is an animalistic creature who had its head being trapped by hashirama's gate in that scene. Basic self preservation is a thing. I can eat a 5 year olds punch to the gut, but does that mean I'm not gonna stop it from happening to me?

The most telling part is it's reaction. While being trapped it literally barely reacts and sloughs off the attack to keep from spreading. Fast forward to the FRS-amaterasu attack and it immediately screams in pain.

Is this an instance amped by FRS? How durable is the Juubi? From what feat?





> I take it these were just for completion's sake?
> 
> I have no idea how to judge these as I don't know how durable they are


indeed.

Madara in his base form should be small city to city level. He literally had those flames on his back, called them dogshit, and then dipped.


----------



## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> No, that is a feat
> 
> Whether its an outlier or not is the question
> 
> I'm not sure why that's flying over your head


When did I ever say it wasn't a feat? I'm clearly implying we don't scale Sakura to that and it is therefore an outlier. Like "I'm not sure why what I say is flying over your head."


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Ok? I never said the attempt at painting her as their equal wasn’t bullshit, can you not read where I said it was retarded?


then literally what was the point of saying it wasnt an outlier


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## Kaaant (Jul 19, 2018)

I didn’t say it wasn’t an outlier. I’m saying if it was Kishi’s intention it was poorly done.


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## Keishin (Jul 19, 2018)

Kaaant said:


> Look what happens when the juubi tries to blow itself up
> 
> 
> 
> Not a single NNT character with island level stats is doing comparable damage to the juubi as what amaterasu has consistently done.


That did like what? Cracked the ground a bit?


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## ho11ow (Jul 19, 2018)

Are people really scaling Itachi's Amaterasu with Sauce's Amaterasu? Sauce's eyes was EMS while itachi's only MS, the best feat from MS Amaterasu is from fight with B which Karen also survive from it


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## Steven (Jul 20, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> for the Juubi.
> 
> 
> Yes. Obito was immune to ninjutsu which did not possess natural energy. Naruto added sage energy to his rasengan. Naruto injured him. Therefore by your logic that rasengan is continental level. Which means a whole slew of high tiers now become continental.
> ...


Senchakra is Juubis/Juubi-Jins Kryptonit.A bad comparison

Amaterasu hurts the Juubi WITHOUT a Senchakra boost


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## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2018)

Acnologia said:


> Senchakra is Juubis/Juubi-Jins Kryptonit.A bad comparison
> 
> Amaterasu hurts the Juubi WITHOUT a Senchakra boost


No. Senjutsu allowed them to bypass jutsu nullification. It did not amp naruto's rasengan past basic sm amp which is no where near juubito levels. We already saw obito tank his own juubidama, the mass explosion jutsu, and was physically strong enough to touch the kage barrier and rip it apart. 

Amaterasu did not hurt the juubi on its own. When sasuke did it to a trapped juubi it didn't cry, it simply removed it.

When frs amaterasu hit it the juubi shrieked in pain.

Completely different.


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## RavenSupreme (Jul 20, 2018)

This thread deserves a medal.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 20, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> This thread deserves a medal.



We got:

> Planet level Amaterasu
> City level Itachi(Or maybe even Island), with punches
> Itachi > Kira A

This thread is OBD Gold.


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## Steven (Jul 20, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> This thread deserves a medal.


Thank me later for making this thread lol


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## Ayy lmao (Jul 20, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> We got:
> 
> > Planet level Amaterasu


To be fair, So6p Sasuke's amateratsu is at least small planet level, considering it instantly melted Kaguya's ice, which was able to prevent both Naruto and Sasuke from moving. Both Naruto and Ashura Naruto are small planet level physically, yet Sasuke still decided to use Amateratsu, indicating they couldn't physically break it.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 20, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> To be fair, So6p Sasuke's amateratsu is at least small planet level, considering it instantly melted Kaguya's ice, which was able to prevent both Naruto and Sasuke from moving. Both Naruto and Ashura Naruto are small planet level physically, yet Sasuke still decided to use Amateratsu, indicating they couldn't physically break it.



Not Itachi's that for sure.


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## Zihawk (Jul 20, 2018)

Holy shit this thread. Amaterasu is like the worst thing Itachi could do against the countless characters in NNT that could no-sell his fire attacks due to their resistance to it and the fact that they can lose limbs and regen them casually. His only chance is “lolgenjutsu” arguments, cause outside of that Itachi is nothing special. He’s not beating anything on gray demon tier or above.

He lacks the firepower and they can nuke him just as fast as he can genjutsu them. So he’s at or slightly above red demons and that’s solely assuming he can mindfuck. If he does dumb shit and tries to Amaterasu them he’s solidly losing to Red demons.


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## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> To be fair, So6p Sasuke's amateratsu is at least small planet level, considering it instantly melted Kaguya's ice, which was able to prevent both Naruto and Sasuke from moving. Both Naruto and Ashura Naruto are small planet level physically, yet Sasuke still decided to use Amateratsu, indicating they couldn't physically break it.


No. It wasn't "kaguya's" ice. She didn't cast a hyouton on them, she teleported ice around them making them immobile while mid combat. The ice has no relation to kaguya's power level.


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## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2018)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> We got:
> 
> > Planet level Amaterasu
> > City level Itachi(Or maybe even Island), with punches
> ...


Bruh don't forget continental Ei.


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## Ayy lmao (Jul 20, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> No. It wasn't "kaguya's" ice. She didn't cast a hyouton on them, she teleported ice around them making them immobile while mid combat. The ice has no relation to kaguya's power level.


Please do explain why they didnt physically break the ice, instead of wasting taxing chakra. Both of them, (and especially Ashura Naruto) are small planet level physically
>The ice has no relation to Kaguya's power level
>despite the dimension being literally created by Kaguya's power
Ok. Also this wasn't even my point anyway, so not sure why you bothered explaining that to me?


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## Steven (Jul 20, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> No. It wasn't "kaguya's" ice. She didn't cast a hyouton on them, she teleported ice around them making them immobile while mid combat. The ice has no relation to kaguya's power level.


The ice is from her own dimension.

So yes,it have relation to kaguyas power

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dr. White (Jul 20, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> So basically, Sasuke and Naruto can't break out of ice, if they are teleported inside it? Are you really implying Sasuke and Naruto with their small planet level casual attacks can't break out of regular ice, if they have been teleported inside it??? Does this apply to mud too? Or only ice??
> 
> 
> Sasuke can't spam amateratsu, he cant even spam his Rinnegan teleportation, as shown repeatedly everytime he uses it. We see him bleeding the 2nd time he uses it, but not the first, in the same chapter, and you are telling me that it doesnt tax his chakra? Sasuke has never been able to spam Amaterasu, hence he bleeds almost everytime he uses it. Even with SO6P's upgrade.
> ...


Ok yea I forgot about some of those environmental things and thought the ice was the only thing that ever had an effect on nardo and sauce. So assuming all of this is true I will concede the point for ema sauce


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## Ayy lmao (Jul 20, 2018)

alright then


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 20, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> So basically, Sasuke and Naruto can't break out of ice, if they are teleported inside it? Are you really implying Sasuke and Naruto with their small planet level casual attacks can't break out of regular ice, if they have been teleported inside it??? Does this apply to mud too? Or only ice??
> 
> 
> Sasuke can't spam amateratsu, he cant even spam his Rinnegan teleportation, as shown repeatedly everytime he uses it. We see him bleeding the 2nd time he uses it, but not the first, in the same chapter, and you are telling me that it doesnt tax his chakra? Sasuke has never been able to spam Amaterasu, hence he bleeds almost everytime he uses it. Even with SO6P's upgrade.
> ...


Actually once he got EMS he was spamming Ama pretty easily


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## Ayy lmao (Jul 20, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Actually once he got EMS he was spamming Ama pretty easily


 in which fight does he spam it? It has been a while since I read/ watched Naruto


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## Keishin (Jul 20, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> Please do explain why they didnt physically break the ice, instead of wasting taxing chakra. Both of them, (and especially Ashura Naruto) are small planet level physically
> >The ice has no relation to Kaguya's power level
> >despite the dimension being literally created by Kaguya's power
> Ok. Also this wasn't even my point anyway, so not sure why you bothered explaining that to me?


The same reason why gravity world fucks kaguya up and kakashi runs there like nothings wrong. Nothing to do qith strength the ice just blocks Anu movement


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## Ayy lmao (Jul 20, 2018)

Keishin said:


> The same reason why gravity world fucks kaguya up and kakashi runs there like nothings wrong. Nothing to do qith strength the ice just blocks Anu movement



So you missed the part in the same chapter and the following chapter where her ice harmed Ashura Naruto, by her controlling it and hitting him with it? 

And Kakashi being able to move is PIS. Same as base Sakura being able to harm Kaguya.


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## Keishin (Jul 20, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> So you missed the part in the same chapter and the following chapter where her ice harmed Ashura Naruto, by her controlling it and hitting him with it?
> 
> And Kakashi being able to move is PIS. Same as base Sakura being able to harm Kaguya.


Obito also moved. The worlds are just dangerous to living beings thats all.


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## Ayy lmao (Jul 20, 2018)

Keishin said:


> Obito also moved. The worlds are just dangerous to living beings thats all.


Obito and Kakashi moving is obvious PIS bullcrap. Explain how Kaguya's fodder ice managed to hurt Ashura Naruto, who, in a weaker form, tanked Toneri cutting the moon? I'm not talking about when she froze him.


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## Keishin (Jul 20, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> Obito and Kakashi moving is obvious PIS bullcrap. Explain how Kaguya's fodder ice managed to hurt Ashura Naruto, who, in a weaker form, tanked Toneri cutting the moon? I'm not talking about when she froze him.


Why the fuck you count "pis" one way but not the other?  Lmao... Sakura surviving that planet level acid bois.


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## Steven (Jul 20, 2018)

Keishin said:


> Why the fuck you count "pis" one way but not the other?  Lmao... Sakura surviving that planet level acid bois.


Plotarmor.Sakura had plenty of Plotarmor against Maddy and Kaguya.As well as many PIS moments

When madara stood in front of her, she forgot to breathe because she was too scared.Against Kaguya,a much stronger opponent,she jumped to her head and knocked her back.Which is as well a PIS Moment because she have not even close enough Power to hurt Kaguya


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## Ayy lmao (Jul 20, 2018)

Keishin said:


> Why the fuck you count "pis" one way but not the other? Lmao... Sakura surviving that planet level acid bois.


So you are actually implying that Kaguya's ice hurting Naruto is pis? When she is literally the strongest character in the series? Or Naruto tanking Toneri's moon level attack? Even though he is far above multiple characters that have continent level feats?


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## Steven (Jul 20, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> So you are actually implying that Kaguya's ice hurting Naruto is pis? When she is literally the strongest character in the series? Or Naruto tanking Toneri's moon level attack? Even though he is far above multiple characters that have continent level feats?


Dude,its Keishin.

In his vocabulary the word "logic" does not exist


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## Keishin (Jul 20, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> So you are actually implying that Kaguya's ice hurting Naruto is pis? When she is literally the strongest character in the series? Or Naruto tanking Toneri's moon level attack? Even though he is far above multiple characters that have continent level feats?


What moon level feat? It was hollow.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 20, 2018)

Ayy lmao said:


> in which fight does he spam it? It has been a while since I read/ watched Naruto


He used it when he murdered the Zetsu twice, during the fight with Kabuto twice, several times against the Juubi and Juubito, all without rest and seemingly no strain


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## Ayy lmao (Jul 20, 2018)

Keishin said:


> What moon level feat? It was hollow.


Care to share the evidence?



OneSimpleAnime said:


> He used it when he murdered the Zetsu twice, during the fight with Kabuto twice, several times against the Juubi and Juubito, all without rest and seemingly no strain


Dont know about the first 2, but yea I faintly recall he did against Juubito.


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## Ayy lmao (Jul 20, 2018)

Acnologia said:


> Dude,its Keishin.
> 
> In his vocabulary the word "logic" does not exist


It seems so but I'm bored


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## Iwandesu (Jul 20, 2018)

Tfw you Want to lock the thread but It is too fucking Gold :skullt


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## uchihakil (Jul 21, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Gowther is better.
> 
> And? Itachi can only mind control humans. Gowther can mind control as well, doesn't need eye contact, can do it from range, and can control non living or undead beings such as golems and vampires respectively. That shit's on Itachi. Check 1.
> 
> ...



 - Gowther has never killed with TP, and was never implied to do so. That's just your headcanon. Tsukiyomi and gowthers version are different, itachi's is more potent because he can freely do whatever he wants cuz as you know he controls everything in tsukiyomi.

- Itachi can use izanagi because he studied the uchiha kinjutsu tablet and that was how he knew izanami in the first pace.

-  Gowther has a mind and eyes, genjutsu will definitely work on him, he meets the requirement for genjutsu to work on.

- Gowther's 2 miles blackout worked on fodders with spirit level less than 100-400 or there about (forgot the exact value) depending on the value, they are all town level or less. Guila is definitely town level atmost and nothing more.

- Izanami IS fate manipulation, it was explained in the kabuto fight. Izanagi alters fate and izanami decides fate that was literally what was stated IN THE MANGA. It is far above what gowther has shown.

- Sharingan grants visual illusion resistance yes, but in narutoverse, TP can be resisted by other methods, even fodder like Sakura could resist an illusion that knocked out a stadium full of people, also obito and madara resisted inno's mind control. 

- it doesn't matter if they needed to morph their sensing. Buttom line is the group has a feat of sensing countries away which galan doesn't, as a group they are better.

As i said earlier, gowther has the edge in range and versatility but itachi has more potent TP. And in a one vs one (which is how most matchups are and how this current matchup is) itachi's is better because its more potent.


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## Steven (Jul 21, 2018)

Keishin said:


> What moon level feat? It was hollow.


Old topic

I dont know a single forum where accept the Hollow Moon shit.Maybe AnimeVice but thats it

But whatever,the "Hollow Moon" is fanfic and nothing more


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## Keishin (Jul 21, 2018)

Anyone with a brain can tell that shit is hollow  some narutards pushing their own agendas wont change whats in the movie.


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## Steven (Jul 21, 2018)

Maybe you start to prove that the Moon was hollow


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 21, 2018)

Keishin said:


> Anyone with a brain can tell that shit is hollow  some narutards pushing their own agendas wont change whats in the movie.


You realize it acts like the actual Moon irl so its GBE is the fucking same you dolt, hes not throwing it like some fucking rock he’s literally going against the gravity holding it in place


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## Keishin (Jul 21, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> You realize it acts like the actual Moon irl so its GBE is the fucking same you dolt, hes not throwing it like some fucking rock he’s literally going against the gravity holding it in place


Nah he's not.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 21, 2018)

Keishin said:


> Nah he's not.


So you dont know how gravity works then? Neat


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## Masterblack06 (Jul 21, 2018)

Popcorn anyone?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sleepless (Jul 24, 2018)

Itachi is much slower then most characters in NNT. Itachi has less AP and durability then most characters in NNT if he gets hit once by mid tiers or top tiers it's pretty much over so I won't go over hand to hand although he is a master hand to hand combatant. Itachi starts off his fights using genjutsu. Itachi never uses his Susanoo he only uses it as a last resort or when he can only beat a character through sealing. E.g. They couldn't beat Edo Nagato without Totska Blade.
I believe characters can resist the Totska blade we've seen people like Chandler resisting astral attacks although he is top tier
Tsukuyomi and Genjutsu  is a huge factor here and to be blunt it negs most characters but it wouldn't be a problem for Ban if he tries to use torture since he has been in purgatory for 1000s of years being tortured by the conditions and he is regularly stabbed and he doesn't even flinch.
Chandler has used full counter on illusions of Gowther: 
Characters may be able to absolute cancel the illusion.
I would say Itachi loses because most characters tend to blitz at the start and as we know Itachi is above lightning speed while characters in NNT are massively faster then this. He does have a good chance with illusions. Of course he doesn't beat the high tiers but maybe lower mid tiers and below.


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## Sleepless (Jul 24, 2018)

I just realize that Gowther illusions can work without any contact whatsoever so there's that.


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## Keishin (Jul 25, 2018)

Along with the three Absolutes, Itachi also has Destiny manipulation so he can't be beaten.


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## Lord Valgaav (Jul 25, 2018)

Why is this still going on? 

Seriously. Merlin fingersnaps, GG.


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## Lord Valgaav (Jul 25, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> *fixed



Eh, either way. This is not a 9 pages worth topic.


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## Keishin (Jul 25, 2018)

Lord Valgaav said:


> Eh, either way. This is not a 9 pages worth topic.


Infinite Sealing that Bypasses Durability
Genjutsu
Precog
Damage Reflection
Destiny Manipulation

That is Itachi Uchiha.


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## Juan (Jul 25, 2018)

Keishin said:


> Infinite Sealing that Bypasses Durability
> Genjutsu
> Precog
> Damage Reflection
> ...


Is he hollow?


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## Sleepless (Jul 26, 2018)

Keishin said:


> Infinite Sealing that Bypasses Durability
> Genjutsu
> Precog
> Damage Reflection
> ...



1. Uhhhh why does Totska bypass durability? The blade needs too actually pierce the opponent before it can seal anything.
2. Precog is only people he is relative in speed, in NNT he is slow 
3. Attack nullification maybe? Don't see any attack reflection 
4. Uhhhh he can't change fate bro. Destiny is fate which means a predetermined course of events basically what is already going to happen. He can't change this. He himself has his own fate he cannot manipulate it. All he does is make people realize who they actually are. Not change destiny.


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## Sleepless (Jul 26, 2018)

Also would genjutsu even work on Ban because apparently in purgatory you only use your 6th sense and not your 5 senses. Which means manipulating the 5 sense wouldn't do much to Ban.


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## Steven (Jul 26, 2018)

EmperorRorepme said:


> 2. Precog is only people he is relative in speed, in NNT he is slow


Speed is equal


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 26, 2018)

EmperorRorepme said:


> Also would genjutsu even work on Ban because apparently in purgatory you only use your 6th sense and not your 5 senses. Which means manipulating the 5 sense wouldn't do much to Ban.


Genjutsu can also mindfuck and outright control people


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## Sleepless (Jul 26, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Genjutsu can also mindfuck and outright control people


Mindfuck is also manipulating the 5 senses
Controlling how? Take control of the chakra stream? Or the brain or is it through illusions?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 26, 2018)

EmperorRorepme said:


> Mindfuck is also manipulating the 5 senses
> Controlling how? Take control of the chakra stream? Or the brain or is it through illusions?


Like controlling peoples movements and shit


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 26, 2018)

Keishin said:


> Infinite Sealing that Bypasses Durability


----------

