# Is the strongest Hokage debate finally over?



## Hamaru (Jun 6, 2012)

Seriously, the whole debate about who is stronger out of Shodai, Minato, and Sarutobi should be done away with. In the beginning it was thought that Shodai's biggest threat in his fight against Madara was the Kyuubi. Now we see that Madara has crazy destructive power on the same level as tailed beast, and out of all the tailed beast, I don't see any of them other than the 8 & 9 tails packing complete Susanoo's  destructive power. 

I use to always argue that Shodai was stronger since he had to go against EMS Madara + the Kyuubi. Now we see that it was a fight against two mountain busters and Shodai. NOBODY else in the manga could take on Prime Madara and his 9-tailed pet, period.


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## Frawstbite (Jun 6, 2012)

Yes, and people need to accept that Hashirama, much like Rikudo is beyond feats.


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## tnorbo (Jun 6, 2012)

seriously dude was called a fucking fairy tale

that beats all hype in the manga bar rikudo's


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## Thdyingbreed (Jun 6, 2012)

Yep. 

Hashirama>Minato>Hiruzen(Prime)>Tsunade>=Danzo


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## Faustus (Jun 6, 2012)

OP, you obviously forgot that manga has already confirmed Shodai gained control over Kurama and it was actually Shodai+Kurama against Madara 

But of course Hashirama is the strongest.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jun 6, 2012)

Yes
Long time ago.

Minato>Prime Hiruzen>Hashirama>Tobirama>Tsunade.


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## Turrin (Jun 6, 2012)

I think Hashirama is the strongest, but I'm going to wait till we see more from Prime Hiruzen & Minato, to be 100% sure.


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## Addy (Jun 6, 2012)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Yep.
> 
> Hashirama>Hiruzen(Prime)>Minato>Tsunade>=Danzo



truth


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Jun 6, 2012)

2nd hokage > 1st > your favorite character


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## Hamaru (Jun 6, 2012)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> 2nd hokage > 1st > your favorite character



That would be interesting.


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## The_Evil (Jun 6, 2012)

When Hashirama and Madara fought, maps needed to be redrawn.

Take that Lesser Kages!


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## DoflaMihawk (Jun 6, 2012)

There was never any doubt in my mind.


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## Black☆Star (Jun 6, 2012)

So much for the new generation surpasses the old, unless it only applies to Naruto and Sasuke


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## Ranma Saotome (Jun 6, 2012)

Hiruzen would fall to his knees and cry if he had to fight Madara and the Kyuubi at the same time.


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## Star★Platinum (Jun 6, 2012)

Hashirama is definitely based on hype, statements etc.


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## αce (Jun 6, 2012)

At this point fuck the databook.
That guy is fucking retarded.

Before current Madara, Hashirama was the strongest bar Rikudou.
No one tell me otherwise.


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## ? (Jun 6, 2012)

I think Hashirama was retconned to be the strongest Hokage.

Hashirama > Minato > Hiruzen > Tobirama> Tsunade.


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## Gabe (Jun 6, 2012)

should ahve been obvious after what kabuto and madara have been saying about shodai


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 6, 2012)

Wasn't it always Hashirama > Minato > Tobirama > Hiruzen > Tsunade?


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## Frawstbite (Jun 6, 2012)

If Tobirama was only as half as strong as his brother he would have been a beast as well. I wonder how big the gap between them was.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 6, 2012)

Give it a rest brah. There will be always people thinking like this :




Turrin said:


> I think Hashirama is the strongest, but I'm going to wait till we see more from Prime Hiruzen & Minato, to be 100% sure.


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## Ranma Saotome (Jun 6, 2012)

Inu said:


> I think Hashirama was retconned to be the strongest Hokage.
> 
> Hashirama > Minato > Hiruzen > Tobirama> Tsunade.



S'how I see it. Though it should be obvious, had Tobirama lived, he would've been Edo Tensei's master not Orochimaru or even Kabuto. I don't know if he'd actually use it, but if he was cruel enough to that'd place him above Minato, perhaps even Hashirama.. so I uno how to call it.


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## KnightGhost (Jun 6, 2012)

Hashirama >  Tobirama > Hiruzen > Minato> Tsunade


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## SageEnergyMode (Jun 6, 2012)

Only thing this says to me is that Hashirama most likely had the most raw, destructive power of all the kage, and was the biggest powerhouse in terms of likely chakra capacity, but that alone doesn't qualify someone as the strongest.

I will accept though that he is the strongest Hokage in those regards, but those aren't the only things that decide strength. I still believe that Minato was the greatest, most impressive ninja of all the Hokage to date.


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## The_Evil (Jun 6, 2012)

Hashirama power was regarded as Fairy Tale. Meaning people didn't even believe someone could  be so strong.

Those who Hyped other Hokages probably though that tales of 1st power were grossly exaggerated.

Turns out, they weren't.


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## Star★Platinum (Jun 6, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I think Hashirama is the strongest, but I'm going to wait till we see more from Prime Hiruzen & Minato, to be 100% sure.



Think you're going to be waiting a long, long time.


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## Danzio (Jun 6, 2012)

Did we read a new statement or something?


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## AoshiKun (Jun 6, 2012)

Kishimoto simply loves that wood...


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## Pretty Good Satan (Jun 6, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> So much for the new generation surpasses the old, unless it only applies to Naruto and Sasuke



Sage of Six Paths, ancient generation > Hashrima, older generation > Tsunade, old generation > Sakura, new generation

lol, it went out the window.


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## Closet Pervert (Jun 6, 2012)

I have to admit... Hashirama has earned his place as the 3rd strongest Hokage.


The_Evil said:


> When Hashirama and Madara fought, maps needed to be redrawn.


That's because Hashirama missed and couldn't one shot Madara.


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## Shattering (Jun 6, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I think Hashirama is the strongest, but I'm going to wait till we see more from Prime Hiruzen & Minato, to be 100% sure.





Danzio said:


> Did we read a new statement or something?





Closet Pervert said:


> I have to admit... Hashirama has earned his place as the 3rd strongest Hokage.
> That's because Hashirama missed and couldn't one shot Madara.


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## BlazingCobaltX (Jun 6, 2012)

Hashirama is the strongest Kage, deal with it guys.


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## lazer (Jun 6, 2012)

god of shinobi = hiruzen


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## tnorbo (Jun 6, 2012)

The_Evil said:


> Hashirama power was regarded as Fairy Tale. Meaning people didn't even believe someone could  be so strong.
> 
> Those who Hyped other Hokages probably though that tales of 1st power were grossly exaggerated.
> 
> Turns out, they weren't.



this is what people seem to fail to realize.


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## Leuconoe (Jun 6, 2012)

Straight from Mr. Madara himself!


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## sinjin long (Jun 6, 2012)

honestly,no its not over.

strongest as in who has the most raw power, then its looking like hashirama is the man.

but destructive capability and raw power does not = who can beat who.

lets be honest it really comes down to hashirama vs minato vs hiruzen.

hashi has the most AOE and raw power, hiruzen has the most jutsu,and minato has the most skill,

scenarios can be made that anyone of them can be the victor. and to be completely honest with what has been shown and implied i see both hashirama and minato defeating hiruzen. 

so it really comes down to hashi vs minato, the sledge hammer vs the scalpel.


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## CrazyMoronX (Jun 6, 2012)

Until we have solid manga proof of what happened in the fight, then no. It is not over.

Sarutobi in his prime is the best by feats.


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## T-Bag (Jun 6, 2012)

hashirama is the strongest, but that doesnt mean he cant lose to someone like minato


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## iJutsu (Jun 6, 2012)

Tobirama has edo, so he can summon Madara + Hashirama and rule the world. Until he gets koto'ed by Shisui.


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## sinjin long (Jun 6, 2012)

CrazyMoronX said:


> Until we have solid manga proof of what happened in the fight, then no. It is not over.
> 
> Sarutobi in his prime is the best by feats.



wait what??  what feats does prime hiruzen have?


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 6, 2012)

CrazyMoronX said:


> Until we have solid manga proof of what happened in the fight, then no. It is not over.
> 
> Sarutobi in his prime is the best by feats.



What feats?


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## JPongo (Jun 6, 2012)

S/T especially in Minato's hands are nothing to sneeze at.

And if all else fails, which shouldn't against a shinobi, there's the SF.

And Hiruzen's best feat was Minato's jutsu.


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## BatoKusanagi (Jun 6, 2012)

Hashirama = god. Confirmed!


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 6, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I'm going to wait till we see more from Prime Hiruzen & Minato, to be 100% sure.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 6, 2012)

I thought Tobirama Senju was said to be on Hashirama level?


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## hisoga (Jun 6, 2012)

3rd Hokage and 4th is the strongest Hokage... everything in part 2 is just a terrible filler, retcon and bad writing..


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## Corax (Jun 6, 2012)

Sarutobi should be the strongest. Though it was  retconned  in part 2.


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## TheProblem (Jun 6, 2012)

I don't understand how people can just throw out the "Regarded as a fairytale" thing while completely disregarding the fact that Hiruzen was said to be the "God of shinobi" and the "Strongest of all the hokages" now, from what we've seen on panel, and things that are indeed stated to be facts, it would definitely seem as if Hashirama is stronger than Hiruzen, why? because we have *yet* to see any major feats from the third; notice the "yet". The only real memorable feat worth mentioning would be of him being able to hold his own against Orochimaru and the first and second hokages while at a stage in his career,(As stated by Enma) said to be "miserable" when compared to his prime. Hell Madara wasn't even alive to see or witness the Sandaime in his prime to begin with, so how could he be totally sure if the Sandaime couldn't stop him? Or someone else for that matter? All I'm saying is I think people should wait on their final judgments as to who the strongest Hokage is, because at this time, most of the rest of their abilities are still shrouded in mystery.


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## n0thinglasts (Jun 6, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> Only thing this says to me is that Hashirama most likely had the most raw, destructive power of all the kage, and was the biggest powerhouse in terms of likely chakra capacity, but that alone doesn't qualify someone as the strongest.



Agree with that part
1 power 60 tactics/knowledge >>>>>>>> 1 knowledge/tactics 500 power
It seems people on these forums think power is more important. Madara has left himself open because of cockyness so many times and just doesn't seem to be a smart fighter. If he were say fighting Itachi and he just let Itachi hit him because hes so cocky and wants to show off hashi's face on his chest, he would of been sealed right there. His power has made him overconfident and he doesn't use any tactics at all. So far I'm quiet unimpressed with his knowledge/tactics.
I would rate it like this
3rd Hokage
Number of jutsu/versatility:1000
Tactics/knowledge:250
Raw power:200
Overall:3450

4th Hokage
Number of jutsu/versatility:100
Tactics/knowledge:300
Raw power:100
Overall:1800

Madara
Number of jutsu/versatility:200
Tactics/knowledge:100
Raw power:2000
Overall:2900

So putting 1st hokage above Madara would put him around the area of the 3rd Hokage. Although from what it sounds like to me, when Madara and the 1st fought, Madara didn't yet have the rinnegan. He survived the fight with the 1st and achieved the rinnegan at the later part of his life. So that means the 1st probably isn't stronger than current Madara.


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## Eros (Jun 6, 2012)

I doubt there will ever be 100% agreement on who is the strongest hokage. Having said that, the case for Hashirama is very strong, and on the surface, it would seem that he was. However, one must consider more than raw strength. All jutsu, except edo tensei, is said to have a weakness. Perhaps the bottom line is that only Hashirama Senju could stop Susanoo on Madara's level. Does that necessarily make him the strongest, or does it come down to a special technique that only Hashirama was able to use? I'm just playing devil's advocate here.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Jun 6, 2012)

Hashirama clearly has the most raw power. But Hiruzen as his student, knew him best so he still could conceivably get around his power and win. The problem being of course that the only thing Hiruzen has the directly neutralizes one of Hashirama's powers his Enma's Kongo Nyoi. Adamantine Bo beats wood.

Minato has a very nice very broken skill set that also could match up well against the First and a very wide knowledge base.

Hashirama's Raw power though apparently he was quite brilliant as well, but I think that though apparently the next generations don't become stronger as we generally believe...they may become smarter. Edo tensei has been improved on with each generation. Even though Naruto is an idiot, unlike Kakashi and Jiraiya, he was able to complete Rasengan. Minato improved Shiki Fujin and Hakke Fuin from what he learned from the Uzumaki. There's no need to be stronger if you can use less energy and think your way out of a problem that in the past required brute force.


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## Rios (Jun 6, 2012)

There are always loopholes. Hiruzen Prime will live.


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 6, 2012)

I'm reppin' Monkey 4 life.


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## Namikaze Minato Flash (Jun 6, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I think Hashirama is the strongest, but I'm going to wait till we see more from Prime Hiruzen & Minato, to be 100% sure.



I'm with you on this one because many characters have been hyped to hell so long as it suits the plot. Hanzou, who Jiraiya stated no single shinobi could ever defeat for Kishimoto to hype Pain, strikingly comes to mind. So I say Shodai is the strongest amongst the Hokages, but will keep that thought open until this manga's over. Still, Minato dying well before his prime doesn't sit too well with me but meh...


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 6, 2012)

Rios said:


> There are always loopholes. Hiruzen Prime will live.



Madura didn't mention Hiruzen as being one of the people capable of defeating him. Hashirama is the greatest.


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## Nidaime Mizukage (Jun 6, 2012)

Hiruzen Sarutobi is the God of all Shinobi, doesn't matter if Hashirama was STRONGER. 

Hiruzen would use his superior intelligence to wipe the floor with him.

Brains > Brawn.


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## Rios (Jun 6, 2012)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Madura didn't mention Hiruzen as being one of the people capable of defeating him. Hashirama is the greatest.



He wasnt alive when Hiruzen was in his "Prime" .


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## ShenLong Kazama (Jun 6, 2012)

This "Minato is stronger" or who cares "the Ramen guy is stronger" threads are appearing like ants.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 6, 2012)

Rios said:


> He wasnt alive when Hiruzen was in his "Prime" .



He was alive when Nagato was alive, so he must have been alive when Hiruzen was in his "prime."


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## Whirlpool (Jun 6, 2012)

The only reason Madara says that only Hashirama can beat him is because he has not witnessed thy Prime Hiruzen


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## DragonOfChoas (Jun 6, 2012)

Weren't we told the Kyubi was sealed by Shodai wife? As in he 77did7n't actually finish off Madara with Kyubi, but a 7normal EMS Madara.


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## Nidaime Mizukage (Jun 6, 2012)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> *He was alive when Nagato was alive*, so he must have been alive when Hiruzen was in his "prime."



lolwut.



Don't assume that. Tobi was around, not Madara.


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## kzk (Jun 6, 2012)

Yes, but based on what we saw of the First and Second vs the Third, I think this is one giant retcon.


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## Udontard4ever (Jun 6, 2012)

Hamaru said:


> That would be interesting.



that would mean that fodder bros> hashi

btw i'm starting to consider that a retcon might have happened

but as turrin said, im' gonna wait and see what happens

the other hokages are going to appear before the end, that's for sure


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## subscriber9 (Jun 6, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Hashirama is definitely based on hype, statements etc.



I still think Hashi/Madara were on equal footing and Hashi just got the advantage in that battle. Another battle, another result perhaps. Madara acknowledges only Hashi can take him on. He also keeps mentioning that only Taijutsu will work on him, which makes sense as physical power is what the Senju inherited. Conversly I think only Madaras Ninjutsu prowess can counter Hashi's Taijustu prowess.


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## city (Jun 6, 2012)

There are three main things that I think a lot of people are ignoring or overlooking.

1. This Madara isn't the one that was beaten by Shodai.  EMS Madara lost to Hashirama and then took some of Hashirama's DNA, added it to himself, and then acquired the Rinnengan.  This guy we're watching fight the five Kages isn't the one Shodai beat.

2. The power level inflation that has happened in this war is ridiculous.  Hiruzen's only real fight was in part 1 against Tobirama and Hashirama.  The 1st and 2nd were being praised by those watching ("omg, the 2nd can create water from nowhere") yet we've seen a ridiculous amount of people shit on that since.  Hell, the current Konoha 12 could have probably beat the part 1 edos

3. Minato has shown pretty much nothing.  He's shown FTG and Rasengan and I'd hope nobody believes he got the title as genius, greatest ever from Konoha, and younger Hokaga for those two abilities only (we're assuming nobody else knew about SF since it's not like he could do it more than once).  Kakashi also said that all Konoha Jounins have at least two elemental chakras and we haven't seen that from Minato.  In fact, he's yet to need to really go all out on any opponent (has not been shown to be touched in battle except after using SF).

Hashirama could very well be the strongest of them all, but these three things truly leave the debate open if you're objective


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## Garfield (Jun 6, 2012)

Thing is, it's not so easy. While Hashirama may have an edge over Minato as far as a vs Madara scenario is concerned, that doesn't necessarily mean he can defeat Minato because we aren't doing a one dimensional linear regression (well in fact, realistically speaking, this is in total Kishi controlled universe so we can't really make any 100 perc prediction).


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## Saturnine (Jun 6, 2012)

Madara with Hashirama DNA and Rinnegan > Hashirama > Madara


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## Fatal Warrior (Jun 6, 2012)

Nidaime Mizukage said:


> lolwut.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't assume that. Tobi was around, not Madara.



Well he wondered if Nagato was responsible for his revival. Did they plan to call the kid who got the Rin'negan Nagato?




CrazyMoronX said:


> Until we have solid manga proof of what happened in the fight, then no. It is not over.
> 
> *Sarutobi in his prime is the best by feats*.



This aught to be good. So tell us why you think the guy with the least feats in the manga is the best,* by feats*. Well, he has the least amount of feats after RS, since all his feats are told to us, we didn't see them...

Then again, we haven't seen any Prime Hiruzen feats...I guess we know where the nickname *God of Shinobi* came from


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## Nidaime Mizukage (Jun 6, 2012)

Fatal Warrior said:


> Well he wondered if Nagato was responsible for his revival. Did they plan to call the kid who got the Rin'negan Nagato?



 

forgot about that scene. I'm holding on to that Tobi is a conduit of Madara.


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## The_Evil (Jun 6, 2012)

Dan knew Sarutobi and yet he still though Hashirama was the only one who could stop Madara.

Now Madara says the same and we know he has info up to at least Nagato's childhood. 

In a world where shinobi who can take Bijuu head on, destroy entire villages, conquer countries by there lonesome etc. exist and it's all regarded as historical fact and unquestioned, Hashirama strength was still though of as a Fairy Tale as in *people couldn't believe that someone could actually be this strong.*

Seriously how much more hype does a guy need?


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## Tekkenman11 (Jun 6, 2012)

Saturnine said:


> Madara with Hashirama DNA *which leads to Rinnegan* > Hashirama > Madara



Fixed. /end thread


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## Skywalker (Jun 6, 2012)

Obviously, that was clear sometime ago.


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## Lelouch71 (Jun 6, 2012)

Unless Hiruzen has monkey SM and Minato has a secret perfect SM, I have no choice but to accept that Hashirama is stronger. He is still an overrated bland character who I still can't fathom why people like outside of his power. However, the man is clearly above the rest of the hokages. Of course it could change if Kishi wants to make Hiruzen and Minato even stronger but yeah this is the case. It doesn't really matter anyway my interest in this manga let alone these petty fan wars already faded. *shrugs*


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## King Scoop (Jun 6, 2012)

Hashirama hands down has the most power out of all of them, But that still doesn't mean he wouldn't lose in a fight against Hiruzen. Skill can trump power.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 6, 2012)

Prime Hiruzen is still the strongest Hokage until that's retconned.

After him, it apparently goes:

Hashirama>Minato>Tobirama or Tsunade


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## αce (Jun 6, 2012)

Except it was retconned.
Just face it.


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## The_Evil (Jun 6, 2012)

Some people cling to this "Prime Hiruzen" crap like their lives depended on that.

Seriously guys Hashirama is The Boss, deal with it


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## bearzerger (Jun 6, 2012)

Hasn't this debate been over for ages? Even the most stubborn should have realized it at the kage summit. Oonoki's reaction to Tobi's proclamation should have been enough. Oonoki believed that Madara on his own could dominate the world of the shinobi and Hashirama was his equal. So clearly Hashirama must have been the strongest hokage.

Honestly ever since part one I've felt that the guys who though Hiruzen was the strongest were deluded. All Kabuto said is that of all the five kages the hokage was said to be the strongest. And even back then it seemed obvious to me that at the very least Minato was stronger though I didn't know about Hashirama.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 6, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Except it was retconned.
> Just face it.



When?

/10char


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jun 6, 2012)

Hashirama is most monster raw power of the Hokages with his Mokuton but guess what? Hiruzen can counter it with Enma.

I think Message of  the fight of Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama vs Hiruzen is that he surpassed his predeccesor. Hiruzen was able to counter all Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama Techs.
I think the message was very clear for the readers


Still Hiruzen>Hashirama
Hiruzen solo's.

People think raw power is everything?


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## Thor (Jun 6, 2012)

Who cares? Minato gets more bitches than any Hokage.


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## Kisame (Jun 6, 2012)

Thor said:


> Who cares? Minato gets more bitches than any Hokage.



He lacks datwood


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## Hamaru (Jun 6, 2012)

Mickie said:


> Hashirama is most monster raw power of the Hokages with his Mokuton but guess what? Hiruzen can counter it with Enma.
> 
> I think Message of  the fight of Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama vs Hiruzen is that he surpassed his predeccesor. Hiruzen was able to counter all Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama Techs.
> I think the message was very clear for the readers
> ...





You silly little boy. Orochimaru didn't master the edo jutsu.


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## SasukeFan09 (Jun 6, 2012)

Susanoo Madara>flashback Tobi. So Hashirama>Minato.


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## Moon Fang (Jun 6, 2012)

If we are talking about sheer dominance and power. Defiantly shodai


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## Jizznificent (Jun 6, 2012)

too bad Senjuclan is banned. he would have had some fun with this thread, especially with all the hiruzen hype in this thread.


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## KAKASHI10 (Jun 6, 2012)

Mickie said:


> Hashirama is most monster raw power of the Hokages with his Mokuton but guess what? Hiruzen can counter it with Enma.
> 
> I think Message of  the fight of Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama vs Hiruzen is that he surpassed his predeccesor. Hiruzen was able to counter all Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama Techs.
> I think the message was very clear for the readers
> ...



^ What this guy said  
Professor solos


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## KAKASHI10 (Jun 6, 2012)

Jizznificent said:


> too bad *Senjuclan is banned*. he would have had some fun with this thread, especially with all the hiruzen hype in this thread.



  No wonder he has not been posting, and me talking so much about him and he not posting in obviously thread were he would have posted. 

When will he come back?


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## Danzio (Jun 6, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> wait what??  what feats does prime hiruzen have?


 
None, but as a old man he did fodderize the hype machine that is Hashirama  

Wah, but they toyed with Hiruzen... so freakin' what? the result will never change.  




Nikushimi said:


> *Prime Hiruzen is still the strongest Hokage until that's retconned.*
> 
> After him, it apparently goes:
> 
> Hashirama>Minato>Tobirama or Tsunade



Funny how everybody, pretty much, choose to ignore this little fact...


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## Nikushimi (Jun 6, 2012)

Considering how pathetic Hashirama looked in battle back in part 1, I would honestly not be surprised if prime Hiruzen turned out to be even stronger than current Madara.

Kishimoto's propensity for stunting the performance of his characters with jobbing is unreal.



Thor said:


> Who cares? Minato gets more bitches than any Hokage.



That's not a very nice way to talk about his fandom.


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## Ƶero (Jun 6, 2012)

Hashirama>=Minato>Hiruzen>Tobirama>Tsunade.


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## Robotron (Jun 6, 2012)

Tobirama solos them nubs. He can cast Suiton without a water source.


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## The_Evil (Jun 6, 2012)

Robotron said:


> Tobirama solos them nubs. He can cast Suiton without a water source.



So can everybody else, apparently.

Man Tobirama got trolled.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jun 6, 2012)

Hamaru said:


> You silly little boy. Orochimaru didn't master the edo jutsu.



I know Hashirama and Tobirama were toying against Old Hiruzen.
What I wanted to say is that the message of the fight: Hiruzen countered all Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama Techs suggest that he surpassed his Predeccesor.
That's what Kishi wanted to prove in the Fight.
That Hiruzen surpassed his predeccesor: Hashirama & Tobirama
Not Hiruzen>Hashirama & Tobirama in a fight at the same time.

It's obvious that is almost Impossible win against Hashirama & Tobirama at the same time.

If I'm not wrong in the DB said that Hiruzen surpassed his predeccesors: Hashirama & Tobirama
That's how he probably gained the title of the strongest hokage while  excluiding Minato.


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## shintebukuro (Jun 6, 2012)

Mickie said:


> I know Hashirama and Tobirama were toying against Old Hiruzen.
> What I wanted to say is that the message of the fight: Hiruzen countered all Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama Techs suggest that he surpassed his Predeccesor.
> That's what Kishi wanted to prove in the Fight.
> That Hiruzen surpassed his predeccesor: Hashirama & Tobirama
> ...



All of Hiruzen's hype of "strongest Hokage" was retconned. It only applied back when Hashirama was a nobody as far as we knew.


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## supersaiyan146 (Jun 6, 2012)

Yeah pretty much . Hashirama is  a beast  

Too bad raw power isn't everything in battles ..


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## hisoga (Jun 6, 2012)

This is a late post from March 2008 Shonen Jump


> SJ = Shonen Jump
> MK = Masashi Kishimoto
> 
> SJ: There's many rumours regarding Madara being the absolute final villain. Is this true?
> ...


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## Kinimaster (Jun 6, 2012)

its always been :

Hashirama Senju > Hiruzen Sarutobi > Minato Namikaze > Tobirama Senju > Tsunade Senju


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## Raiden (Jun 6, 2012)

As most of us suspected, the manga is going to end with a clash of mountain cutting large scale techniques. I'm a bit disturbed by how strong Madara's Susano-o is, but I'm looking forward to a good fight between him and Nardo.


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## Kisame (Jun 7, 2012)

hisoga said:


> This is a late post from March 2008 Shonen Jump



That interview is fake.


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## hisoga (Jun 7, 2012)

Shark said:


> That interview is fake.


too bad it was fake.. if it was really a fake.. but my point is not 3rd stronger than other hokages. my point is still Kishi retconed so many thing in part 2.


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## Yuna (Jun 7, 2012)

Faustus said:


> OP, you obviously forgot that manga has already confirmed Shodai gained control over Kurama and it was actually Shodai+Kurama against Madara
> 
> But of course Hashirama is the strongest.


1) They fought many times and it was always a draw. Unless you think Madara didn't get his complete Susano'o until the Valley of the End battle, Madara faced Prime Madara without Kurama.
2) Except it didn't. It's never been confirmed that it was Hashirama + Kurama vs. Madara. What has been stated or implied in the manga are two different mutually exclusive scenarios:
* Mito Uzumaki aided her husband by sealing Kurama inside of her (nothing was said of her using her new powers against Madara and I doubt she'd be able to. I'd think sealing Kurama inside of oneself would wear one down... seeing as how Minato was only able to seal half of Kurama's Chakra inside of Naruto.)
* Hashirama wrested Madara's control over Kurama from him. A wounded Hashirama then tells Kurama that he cannot allow Kurama to roam free any longer. It's possible this was after the battle.


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## Hamaru (Jun 7, 2012)

Mickie said:


> I know Hashirama and Tobirama were toying against Old Hiruzen.
> What I wanted to say is that the message of the fight: Hiruzen countered all Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama Techs suggest that he surpassed his Predeccesor.
> That's what Kishi wanted to prove in the Fight.
> That Hiruzen surpassed his predeccesor: Hashirama & Tobirama
> ...



The databook means close to nothing when compared to the actual manga. His fight against the First and Second didn't come close to showing their full power.  When feats are put side by side, Shodai is clearly the strongest Hokage.


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## αce (Jun 7, 2012)

> I would honestly not be surprised if prime Hiruzen turned out to be even stronger than current Madara.






*Spoiler*: __


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## Hamaru (Jun 7, 2012)

I second this ^


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## Namikaze Minato Flash (Jun 7, 2012)

city said:


> There are three main things that I think a lot of people are ignoring or overlooking.
> 
> 1. This Madara isn't the one that was beaten by Shodai.  EMS Madara lost to Hashirama and then took some of Hashirama's DNA, added it to himself, and then acquired the Rinnengan.  This guy we're watching fight the five Kages isn't the one Shodai beat.
> 
> ...



Your assessment is pretty spot on, but I just want to piggy-back on the bold...

One of the requirements for becoming Hokage is possessing 1000 or more jutsu. Clearly, Minato had that quantity in his arsenal because how else could he take the position? And we also have to take into consideration that he was Jiraiya's most stout student, so following his philosophy to endure to the bitter end as a shinobi contrary to Orochimaru's philosophy of acquiring all techniques is something you see in his skill-set. We simply don't see a wide array of jutsu from him much like the same reason we don't from Kakashi: if the same few trademark techniques have worked to efficiently disable or kill opponents, then there's simply no need to exert more effort than what's necessary... 

Elemental recomposition. What element he did have still has yet to be revealed, but we know he had at least one (two by default if we consider Kakashi's words the absolute standard). And the Fourth obviously had a grasp on the mechanics for the simple fact that he tried to apply it to his incomplete Rasengan (which was taken to the highest form of spatial manipulation)...

Simply put, Minato is a true force to be reckoned with. There's not too many who've achieved such level of mastery as him in various areas of Ninjutsu and Fuuinjutsu not only at such a young age, but without the aid of a Doujutsu or Kekkei Genkkai. He may lack the destructive power of Hashirama and the knowledge/experience of Hiruzen, but he was well on his way in surpassing them with just his genius and unbelievable talent...


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## Nidaime Mizukage (Jun 7, 2012)

Hiruzen Sarutobi > Hashirama Senju > Tobirama Senju > Minato Namikaze > Tsunade Senju > Danzo Shimura


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## G@R-chan (Jun 7, 2012)

Edo Madara isn't VotE Madara.

Edo Madara is the strongest shinobi since Rikudou: rinnegan, mokuton, EMS.

Madara vs Hashirama at VotE , he only had EMS with his strongest jutsu "complete Susano'o" but you should be reminded there's a huge drawback since it's a chakra consuming jutsu what Edo Madara doesn't lack. 

Madara never fought against Hiruzen and Minato so he doesn't know who's the strongest hokage.

Edo Madara is besting five kages but he's overpowered with Senju cells and rinnegan things he never used in battle in his lifetime, so his judgement is really biased.

I agree that the Gokages aren't on Hashirama tier according to him. 

So the only thing we can conclude according to Edo Madara is not "Hashirama is the strongest shinobi ever seen/hokage" but the strongest shinobi Madara ever fought. 

Isn't Tobirama the strongest hokage since he created edo tensei the strongest jutsu ever seen and could bring back the strongest fighter aka his brother Hashirama?

I can see Hiruzen, Minato or Tobirama defeating VotE Madara, but I don't think any Hokage could defeat Edo Madara even Shodai.

So the debate is still opened and they all have different specialities that it's silly to rank them in order of strength.


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## Kyuubi Naruto (Jun 7, 2012)

These threads are going to pop up repeatedly until the manga ends. The debate will never be over. There will always be something which propels a Hokage higher and in turn messes up the alignment.


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## balthosai (Jun 7, 2012)

Hiruzen already beat Shodaime and Nidaime.

Hiruzen and Minato share the number one spot, then Hashirama etc.


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## Grendel (Jun 7, 2012)

It definately looks that way at this point and I was resistant to it..

The only thing that could change this is if we somehow get more flashbacks of minato or something of that sort but even if we get them doesn't mean it. Will change this...(I was hoping minato had one more surprise in narutos seal but doesn't look like it)


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## Jason Brody (Jun 7, 2012)

Remember that our understanding of the first is completely limited to what we have seen in the battle between him and Madara. We don't know if he possibly had a second encounter with Madara, and what possibly happened in their known battle. Of course, this also depends on Kishimoto's creativity, but still. 

For all we know, that gigantic forest he created in the Valley of the End against Kurama might have cost him 2% of his chakra. Who knows what he could have cast with much more than that?


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## slickcat (Jun 7, 2012)

But Madara possibly Never met Minato and Hiruzen, so I fail to draw my conclusions so easily. Regardless Harashimas power level has been noted,but people seem to forget that this Madara is using these powers with no drawbacks.. stop being easily blinded like 10 yr olds because of explosive powers, we all know fights dont work that way.

Its like comparing a martial art flick with one master vs 10 guys and then in reality one master can only fend off 1 person. People jumping the wagon so easily.


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## Synn (Jun 7, 2012)

Yet Hashirama lost to old Hiruzen.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 7, 2012)

Hiruzen is possibly the weakest of the #1-4 Hokages 


Shodai - obviously a monster above others

Tobirama - unknown, but being even a fraction of Hashirama (younger bro & all) maybe be enough to put him over Hiruzen .. he had hax suitons IIRC and S/T too .. was almost killed by Gin & Kin though and then died to hunter nins (elite, but w/e) - not too good, but a benefit of the doubt here

Minato - kind of lacked offence, but FTG is broken and could always try for SF to tie .. + godly with seals


not too sure about Tobirama & Minato, but it's _possible_ .. obviously Hashirama > Prime Hiruzen

retcons gonna retcon


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## lazer (Jun 7, 2012)

kakazu fought hashirama and survived 

Prime hiruzen>all


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## Summers (Jun 7, 2012)

Namikaze Minato Flash said:


> Your assessment is pretty spot on, but I just want to piggy-back on the bold...
> 
> *One of the requirements for becoming Hokage is possessing 1000 or more jutsu.* Clearly, Minato had that quantity in his arsenal because how else could he take the position? And we also have to take into consideration that he was Jiraiya's most stout student, so following his philosophy to endure to the bitter end as a shinobi contrary to Orochimaru's philosophy of acquiring all techniques is something you see in his skill-set. We simply don't see a wide array of jutsu from him much like the same reason we don't from Kakashi: if the same few trademark techniques have worked to efficiently disable or kill opponents, then there's simply no need to exert more effort than what's necessary...
> 
> ...


Is that Cannon?


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## bearzerger (Jun 7, 2012)

summers said:


> Is that Cannon?


I doubt you could shoot it so, no.
If you mean canon, it sure as hell isn't either. There is no requirement on the number of jutsu one must possess or on elemental recompositions or anything. There are only two real requirements to get accepted as kage. Strength and the will to protect the village and one's comrades with one's life.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jun 7, 2012)

People will always bitch otherwise, but....

None of the other Hokages could redraw the goddamn map. Madara Vs Hashirama made the Valley of the End, Madara is a mountain buster, Hashirama grew entire forests, Hashirama's strength was so great people in-Verse think it's a _myth_.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 7, 2012)

slickcat said:


> But Madara possibly Never met Minato and Hiruzen, so I fail to draw my conclusions so easily. Regardless Harashimas power level has been noted,but people seem to forget that this Madara is using these powers with no drawbacks.. stop being easily blinded like 10 yr olds because of explosive powers, we all know fights dont work that way.
> 
> Its like comparing a martial art flick with one master vs 10 guys and then in reality one master can only fend off 1 person. People jumping the wagon so easily.



This ^^^

We can't take everything by face value, it isn't Kishi speaking through the character. Madara doesn't know who Minato or Prime Hiruzen was, only think is clear that Tobirama is not the strongest Hokage if he cannot beat Madara but his brother can. 

Therefore this debate is not over, yet. I still believe the strongest Hokage goes in the order they became hokage. So Hashirama > Tobirama > Hiruzen > Minato > Tsunade. That is the order I believe in for numerous reasons.


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## Nidaime Mizukage (Jun 7, 2012)

lazer said:


> kakazu fought hashirama and survived
> 
> Prime hiruzen>all



As for Kakuzu surviving against Hashirama.

"What kind of adult would fight seriously against a child?" 

And yes,

Old Hiruzen > ALL.

Prime Hiruzen = God of All Shinobi.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 7, 2012)

People still believe in the Prime Hiruzen myth. If he was so great why is everyone wishing for Hashirama to come back and destroy Madara? No one is crying out for Hiruzen. Hell, Hiruzen couldn't even properly protect the village from Kyuubi. It took Minato, the boss kage, to handle that situation.


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## Fruit Monger (Jun 7, 2012)

Yes, the debate is over and has been over for a long while IMO.  

Putting aside strength for a moment, Hashirama and Madara are pretty much Naruto and Sasuke incarnate...not to mention their benchmark.  

Similar to Hashirama bring Clans together and creating peace, Naruto will do the same, but in a larger scale, bringing peace to the Naruto-verse.  Sasuke will be the main force against Naruto.



Turrin said:


> I think Hashirama is the strongest, but I'm going to wait till we see more from Prime Hiruzen & Minato, to be 100% sure.



Don't hold your breath buddy.  Having them in battle at this point will only be fanservice.  Their roles have pretty much been fulfilled plotwise.  Only possible loose end is if Minato has something to do with "that justu".  Even then, that would be indirect hype, not on-panel battle.


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## Nidaime Mizukage (Jun 7, 2012)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> People still believe in the Prime Hiruzen myth. If he was so great why is everyone wishing for Hashirama to come back and destroy Madara? No one is crying out for Hiruzen. Hell, Hiruzen couldn't even properly protect the village from Kyuubi. It took Minato, the boss kage, to handle that situation.



Hashirama has more POWER than Hiruzen. Without a doubt.

Hiruzen is The Professor and God of Shinobi. What he lacks in power, he makes up for in Intellegence... in spades.

They're talking about Hashirama only because he's the only one who actually beat Madara.


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## lazer (Jun 7, 2012)

I still can't believe people are putting hashirama over prime hiruzen  Hiruzen was a genius and hashirama was not. Hashirama was not trained by any hokages but hiruzen was trained by 2 hokages! Tobirama Senju and Hashirama Senju himself.

While minato had "flee on sight", hashirama had "fairy tail prowess" hiruzen had "god of shinobi"... nuff said. Hiruzen mastered *all* the techniques in konoha except the bloodline limits. This means hiruzen knew space-time ninjutsu, all 5 elements, all ninjutsu, all genjutsu and all taijutsu in konoha. No wonder he was called the god of ninja, not only was hiruzen a genius, he was the epitome of a ninja.

Enma described old hiruzen's performance against 3 kage level ninja as "miserable" compared to his prime, yet he draws against all 3 
*old hiruzen:3 vs 1 = draw--------edo madara:5 vs 1 = won*

The above mathematical equation proves that, prime hiruzen can easily beat 3 kages and at max, beats 5 kages simultaneously without a sharingan, rinnegan and mokuton


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 7, 2012)

lazer said:


> I still can't believe people are putting hashirama over prime hiruzen  Hiruzen was a genius and hashirama was not. Hashirama was not trained by any hokages but hiruzen was trained by 2 hokages! Tobirama Senju and Hashirama Senju himself.
> 
> While minato had "flee on sight", hashirama had "fairy tail prowess" hiruzen had "god of shinobi"... nuff said. Hiruzen mastered *all* the techniques in konoha except the bloodline limits. This means hiruzen knew space-time ninjutsu, all 5 elements, all ninjutsu, all genjutsu and all taijutsu in konoha. No wonder he was called the god of ninja, not only was hiruzen a genius, he was the epitome of a ninja.
> 
> ...


Raikage speed blitzes Hiruzen's head off. Next.


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## lazer (Jun 7, 2012)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Raikage speed blitzes Hiruzen's head off. Next.



The same raikage that lost a hand vs ms sasuke?


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jun 7, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Therefore this debate is not over, yet. *I still believe the strongest Hokage goes in the order they became hokage*. So Hashirama > Tobirama > Hiruzen > Minato > Tsunade. That is the order I believe in for numerous reasons.





With that logic Naruto will be the weakest hokage.


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## Nidaime Mizukage (Jun 7, 2012)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Raikage speed blitzes Hiruzen's head off. Next.



Shadow Clone goes poof.

Hiruzen and Enma lariat A's head off.


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## Klue (Jun 7, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> All of Hiruzen's hype of "strongest Hokage" was retconned. It only applied back when Hashirama was a nobody as far as we knew.



Hashirama was never really a nobody. His legendary feats haven't changed. And it's more than clear that Kishi planned Hashirama and Madara's relationship quite some time ago - to some extent.

That said, I don't feel as if this is necessarily a bad retcon - it flows with the needs of the story pretty well. It's not as if he written himself into a corner.


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## Rouge Angle (Jun 7, 2012)

It certainly should be, but some people don't know when to quit.


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## King Scoop (Jun 7, 2012)

There should never have been a debate in the first place. It was directly stated that Hiruzen surpassed Hashirama. People keep saying it was retconned, but when you ask them to show you a page in manga/databooks they got nothing. They just feel that Hashirama is stronger from the panels they saw. Everyone is allowed to an opinion, but opinion doesn't trump fact. Kishi was VERY careful in how he worded all of Hashirama's hype.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 7, 2012)

lazer said:


> The same raikage that lost a hand vs ms sasuke?



Wasn't aware that Hiruzen had a magical eyeball that could shoot out black fire.


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## hitokugutsu (Jun 7, 2012)

I'd think prime Hiruzen, Minato and EMS Madara are all in the same tier. Perhaps some slight differences, but every one has a good chance at taking each other out


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## The_Evil (Jun 7, 2012)

Bitches will bitch.

The Wood remains supreme.


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## Saru (Jun 7, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I think Hashirama is the strongest, but I'm going to wait till we see more from Prime Hiruzen & Minato, to be 100% sure.



Don't hold your breath.

Hashirama has yet to be surpassed by any Kage.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jun 7, 2012)

I always find my self changing my mind on the hokage debate. There is no definite answer due to the immense hype Minato, Hashirama and Hiruzen received. They contradict each other so right now anyone who thinks either Minato, Hashirama, or Hiruzen is the strongest hokage is all right.


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## Missing_Nin (Jun 7, 2012)

yes and the third is 7 kage level minimum.

madara beat 5 kages.  the 1st beat madara.  the 3rd beat the 1st including the 2nd and oro who are both kage level.


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## Aazadan (Jun 8, 2012)

Missing_Nin said:


> yes and the third is 7 kage level minimum.
> 
> madara beat 5 kages.  the 1st beat madara.  the 3rd beat the 1st including the 2nd and oro who are both kage level.



To be fair here, Madara has taken two lethal hits so far (though he wasn't fighting at full power) and is more powerful than he was against Hashirama.  A Tsunade/Oonoki combo with Gaara/A/Mei on defense could beat a non Edo Madara in one shot.  Obviously Madara has the tools to fight 5 Kage's at once but I think it's been shown that he's only guaranteed to beat four at the same time.  He has a risk of losing once it's 5 vs 1.

When Hashirama fought him, Madara was weaker than now.  He probably had the full form Susano but he lacked the Rinnegan and Mokuton putting them him somewhere in the 3-4 Kage range (probably closer to 4 still, Mokuton and the Rinnegan haven't done that much for him this fight) while Hashirama beat that plus the Kyuubi.

When Hiruzen fought, they were clearly holding back a lot.  We now know that those explosive tags on Hashirama/Tobiramas legs wouldn't have ended the fight.  Hiruzen at his best was probably in the realm of being able to take on Oonoki+someone or Tsunade+Mei+A.  Saying he could handle 7 Kage's is over stating things a bit, especially since not all kage's are equal.


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## Missing_Nin (Jun 8, 2012)

Muusama said:


> How come the third can't beat Madara? How come people who saw his power said Hashirama power was a fairy tale. You can't believe a power is fairy tale like unless you have never witnessed that level of power



cause madara was already dead.  they never even fought...  you're the one believing in fairy tales.  the fact was the 3rd went against the 1st, 2nd, and oro.


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## Hamaru (Jun 8, 2012)

Okay kids, it is clear that some people don't understand many things stated and shown in the manga so lets go over it 

There are three main Hokages that people talk about

Shodai  Sarutobi  and Minato 

All three of them are strong and legends in their own right; however, only one could be the strongest. Using feats and statements in the MANGA, we have the following information about the three Kage:

*Shodai* - The first Hokage and the strongest of his era. With recent developments, it is very likely that he is the strongest of any era when discounting Rik. 

*The case for the statement*- Shodai's power was so great that people thought it was a fairy tail. That alone means that it was so far beyond anything that they've seen that it was to hard to believe such power could exist. This is also backed up by the huge gap in power between his rival Madara and the 5 Kage. Even when you only include Madara's Uchiha jutsu arsenal, it is far beyond the reach of the 5 kage. He is also able to deal with the Raikage's speed, who was the second fastest man alive during the Yellow Flash era. When Madara used his complete Susanno, he was easily able to destroy mountains, yet he mentioned that Shodai was the only person that was able to stop him. He also comments on the fact that they are lucky that Shodai wasn't alive because of all the land that would be destroyed as a result of a fight between Shodai and himself. This means that the First Hokage had great personal destructive power. 

Additional boost - On top of his destructive power, the 1st was able to heal himself without hand seals, and control all the bijuu at once; meaning, a prime Shodai would  have mountain busting fire-power on his own, the ability to heal himself, poison based jutsu, and all 9 beast under his control. 

*Minato* - Likely the most genius ninja born in Konoha, The Yellow Flash has proven to be the 2nd strongest Hokage in the History of the Leaf. 

*The case for the statement*- When Dan heard about Madara being out and about, he claimed that only the First would be able to stop him. Out of all the Hokages, the only one he didn't know about was Minato. While alive, he was the fastest man in the world when using his special jutsu. Almost more impressive was his ability to use the jutsu in order to transfer large scale attacks to another location. The effectiveness was shown when he teleported one of Kyuubi's bijuu bombs (a mountain buster) away. 

What makes the Yellow Flash a pain in the ass - The ability to teleport a mountain buster away shows that any chakra based attack that his thrown or shot at him will be useless. If you try to fight him up close, his speed will leave you in the dust. 

Why he is ranked #2 instead of 1 - Without a doubt Minato was powerful in his era; however, his strongest known rival is A...a man who can't hold a candle to Madara (as we all see). Also, his biggest feat is stopping the Kyuubi, which also took his life. It is a good enough feat to put him above Sarutobi, but not good enough to put him above or equal to Shodai.


*Sarutobi* - The third strongest of the 3 top Hokage. They called him the professor but he was also well hyped. 

Reason for the statement - To date we hear more about the aftermaths due to things that Sarutobi didn't do or didn't notice than we hear about great feats that he has performed. During his reign as the Hokage, he had respect but wasn't feared by the Raikage in the least (A's dad). Like Minato, he has no great/legendary rival that would place his level of power beyond the reach of the masses. He just has enough to be a legend, but not to the point that he would become a myth (like Shodai). Unlike Minato, he never tangled with a tailed beast or anything with their level of destructive power. 

Sarutobi's most impressive feat (and it is impressive) was fighting against Orochimaru and a non perfect edo 1st & 2nd Hokage. The feat is good enough to place him above most of the Narutoverse; however, not in the top Hokage spot. The reason for it is due to Orochimaru not mastering Edo, so the revived hokages were not at their full strength. Also, Orochimaru falls extremely short in comparable power to Madara or the Kyuubi. Granted he might not have been in his prime, but when he was younger, he still didn't have the gall to put the Raikage in his place.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jun 8, 2012)

The debate was over from the moment Hiruzen was called the history strongest hokage.
people justify a retcon based in : Hashirama has more raw power and that's a very pathetic excuse that people use just to try to justify a "retcon"
we had not seen anything from Prime Hiruzen yet  people just jump in conclusions.
Kishi  carefully worded Hashirama hype and there is no hype of Hashirama that contradict Hiruzen hype.

Hiruzen solo's.


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## Hamaru (Jun 8, 2012)

Mickie said:


> The debate was over from the moment Hiruzen was called the history strongest hokage.
> people justify a retcon based in : Hashirama has more raw power and that's a very pathetic excuse that people use just to try to justify a "retcon"
> we had not seen anything from Prime Hiruzen yet  people just jump in conclusions.
> Kishi  carefully worded Hashirama hype and there is no hype of Hashirama that contradict Hiruzen hype.
> ...



It was a retcon once Shodai was shown to be much more powerful than anything Sarutobi has ever shown. It was a retcon when feats put the two worlds apart. It was a retcon once people started saying that Shodai was the only one with the ability to beat Madara. It was a retcon once Shodai's power was so crazy that people thought it was just a fairy tail. It was a retcon once Kishi made it so that Orochimaru's Edo jutsu was incomplete and only Kabuto was able to summon people with their full powers.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jun 8, 2012)

Hamaru said:


> It was a retcon once Shodai was shown to be much more powerful than anything Sarutobi has ever shown. It was a retcon when feats put the two worlds apart. It was a retcon once people started saying that Shodai was the only one with the ability to beat Madara. It was a retcon once Shodai's power was so crazy that people thought it was just a fairy tail. It was a retcon once Kishi made it so that Orochimaru's Edo jutsu was incomplete and only Kabuto was able to summon people with their full powers.



...

All your "retcon" are based on what?
Show me at least one statement that made Hashirama>Hiruzen in the entire Manga.

Kishi carefully worded all Hashirama hype:

Tobi said that he was the greatest shinobi of his time.
Edo Madara said that he was the strongest shinobi of his time
Kabuto said that there is no shinobi "alive" who's as strong as Senju Hashirama
Only Hashirama can stop Madara: Hashirama has the tools: Mokuton, Bijuu control/Bijuu supression to defeat Madara.
Hiruzen has the tools to defeat Hashirama: Enma to counter his Mokuton.

A>B>C logic.

Furthermore, we only had seen little amount of Hiruzen jutsu arsenal and we don't know how strong is Prime Hiruzen.


What Orochimaru incomplete Edo Tensei?
Kabuto just surpassed Orochimaru Edo Tensei in quantity.

Prime Hiruzen will be the strongest hokage until Kishi retcon it in the Databook IV, Manga or using his own words.


Until then: Hiruzen solo's.

PD: I'm done here, people have 0 proof to prove Hashirama>Prime Hiruzen.


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## n0thinglasts (Jun 8, 2012)

Hamaru said:


> It was a retcon once Shodai was shown to be much more powerful than anything Sarutobi has ever shown. It was a retcon when feats put the two worlds apart. It was a retcon once people started saying that Shodai was the only one with the ability to beat Madara. It was a retcon once Shodai's power was so crazy that people thought it was just a fairy tail. It was a retcon once Kishi made it so that Orochimaru's Edo jutsu was incomplete and only Kabuto was able to summon people with their full powers.



Your post makes me think that you are ranking who is more powerful based only on their strength or level of destruction... which is a completely ignorant and childish way to think and rank people power wise. That's like idiots that say "this guy would win in a fight because hes 250 pounds of muscle! The other guy is only 150 pounds there's no way he can win!" <- What idiots say who don't know anything about fighting or think they do because they watch mma or something.

Sarutobi had many many more jutsu and was a much higher level tactical fighter, both of which count for farrrrrr more than strength or level of destruction. As someone else pointed out, Sarutobi knew every single jutsu in konoha at the very least, most likely much much more too from outside the village. He knew space-time ninjutsu, Minato's transportation jutsu, edo tensie, all 5 elements, all ninjutsu, all genjutsu and all taijutsu in konoha and every single other jutsu you can think of that isn't blood line related from konoha.


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## Kahvehane (Jun 8, 2012)

I still want Kishimoto to show Hashirama v. Madara. I want to see the sheer insanity he pulled out of his leafy-green ass to stop a fucking Perfect Susano'o, sharingan-controlled Kyuubi, AND Rinnegan meteors before I reach my verdict.


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## ImSerious (Jun 8, 2012)

Has Hashirama signed a contract with a god? Cuz Minato has


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## Kahvehane (Jun 8, 2012)

ImSerious said:


> Has Hashirama signed a contract with a god? Cuz Minato has



That was something of a temporary contract, really...


----------



## Mithos (Jun 8, 2012)

In my opinion people are basing their opinions too much on feats, when we have the author's words telling us the answer. Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage - Iruka and Kabuto said so, as did DB 1 and 2. Nowhere in the manga has there been a statement saying any other Hokage was the "strongest."

From Part I to Part II, jutsu became much more destructive, so characters from Part II look stronger - but that doesn't mean they are. Kishi hadn't thought of the power inflation when he was writing Part I, so direct feat comparisons aren't necessarily accurate. Instead, we should rely on information he has given us - character statements, Databook information, etc.

Shodai: Has been called the "greatest" shinobi of his time.

Minato: Has been called Konoha's "greatest" Hokage.

Hiruzen: Called the "strongest" Hokage in history, "God of Shinobi."

Also: Hiruzen knew how strong Shodai and Nidaime were, since he trained under them. However, despite this, he was not worried about losing to them. He told them "Prepare to be defeated!" 

Until Kishi tells us that Shodai is "stronger" or is the "strongest" Hokage through the DB or characters, Hiruzen's status has not been retconned. It's just fans saying so because they're more impressed with a character's performance. 

We may never know exactly how strong Prime Hiruzen is, but until we get official confirmation that there has been retcon, fans need to stop acting like they know more about the manga than the artist.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jun 8, 2012)

Muusama said:


> This whole thing about Hashirama had more raw power is Hiruzen fans argument. You are simply using a straw man argument here. Nowhere does the manga say Hadhirama had more raw power. You guys came up with that.
> 
> Here is the retcon:
> 1. A saying no one could surpass Minato when Iruka said Hiruzen was stronger than Minato.
> ...



1. A never said that no one could surpass Minato - He only said about Minato: " A noble man, A finer shinobi never lived": He only said Minato appeareance,skills and quality are unsurpassable.
2. * We have Hiruzen confident in able to defeat Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama
* The message  of the fight Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama vs Hiruzen: is that he surpassed his Predeccesor: Hashirama & Tobirama - He was able to counter all Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama Techs.
* We have Hiruzen consider himself as the strongest and now don't tell me Hiruzen don't knew or believed in his own sensei power.
* We have Databook and Statement that said Hiruzen>Hashirama
* Kishi can still made Hiruzen>Hashirama even  with that Statement
* Don't tell me konoha don't knew or believed in his own Hokage powers?
3. provide me a link or at least a reliable source of that statement and even it's true why bother to mention in all DB that he's the strongest Hokage?
4. Dan Statment is A>B>C logic

Furthermore none of the Hashirama hype contradict Hiruzen hype

PD: I'm done here, people only have 0 proof to prove Hashirama>Hiruzen.


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## Hamaru (Jun 8, 2012)

Mickie said:


> ...
> 
> All your "retcon" are based on what?
> Show me at least one statement that made Hashirama>Hiruzen in the entire Manga.
> ...


You have 0 proof that Hiruzen > Hashirama. All you have is a fight against a non perfected edo. We base things on feats and Shodai has the best. 



n0thinglasts said:


> Your post makes me think that you are ranking who is more powerful based only on their strength or level of destruction... which is a completely ignorant and childish way to think and rank people power wise. That's like idiots that say "this guy would win in a fight because hes 250 pounds of muscle! The other guy is only 150 pounds there's no way he can win!" <- What idiots say who don't know anything about fighting or think they do because they watch mma or something.
> 
> Sarutobi had many many more jutsu and was a much higher level tactical fighter, both of which count for farrrrrr more than strength or level of destruction. As someone else pointed out, Sarutobi knew every single jutsu in konoha at the very least, most likely much much more too from outside the village. He knew space-time ninjutsu, Minato's transportation jutsu, edo tensie, all 5 elements, all ninjutsu, all genjutsu and all taijutsu in konoha and every single other jutsu you can think of that isn't blood line related from konoha.



Don't respond to me with such a pathetic reply. Raw power is just one of Shodai's advantages over Sarutobi. His ability to heal himself is another. Without even counting the bijuu control, name how Sarutobi would beat Shodai. Tell me his advantage. You have no idea how tactical Shoai was as a fighter. If you do, tell me how you know. Don't act like destruction power means nothing when Sarutobi hasn't shown anything to deal with the level of power being talked about. 

Do yourself a favor and jump on Minato's dick, he would have a better chance.


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## Danzio (Jun 9, 2012)

Mickie said:


> ...
> 
> All your "retcon" are based on what?
> Show me at least one statement that made Hashirama>Hiruzen in the entire Manga.
> ...




I couldn't have said it any better myself. 

Kishi could change it all with a retcon, but so far we haven't seen one.

The bandwagon fans will support a character until someone else impresses them  more (power wise).How many Hashirama fans can you remember seeing  before the recent hype?


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## Robotron (Jun 9, 2012)

As I mentioned, the fact that Tobirama got hype for casting Suiton without a water source is a pretty clear indication even Kishi himself doesn't know who's the strongest hokage. Or rather, if the title of the strongest hokage has moved from one _dead_ character to another and Kishi simply doesn't care for consistency.

In the end it all comes down to what you like to believe, because no matter what arguments one makes, the other side can easily dismiss it as "selective reading" or "out of context" or "shallow".


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## alchemy1234 (Jun 9, 2012)

Mickie said:


> 1. A never said that no one could surpass Minato - He only said about Minato: " A noble man, A finer shinobi never lived": He only said Minato appeareance,skills and quality are unsurpassable.
> 2. ** We have Hiruzen confident in able to defeat Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama*
> * The message  of the fight Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama vs Hiruzen: is that he surpassed his Predeccesor: Hashirama & Tobirama - He was able to counter all Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama Techs.
> * We have Hiruzen consider himself as the strongest and now don't tell me Hiruzen don't knew or believed in his own sensei power.
> ...



Don't want to get into this debate, but had to point out that this point is a ridiculous one. hiruzen's confidence doesn't mean shit here. he was confident before the fight that he couldn't stop orochimaru. so would this mean orochimaru >>> Edo hashirama and tobirama?

anyway, its obvious this is a retcon. btw dan having witnessed hiruzen in his prime and still saying that only hashirama can beat madara does in fact contradict hiruzens position. Dans statement as a standalone statement wouldn't hold much weight, as you could argue the A>B>C logic doesn't apply (which btw to quite a degree in this manga it does, seeing how its all become about power levels), however other characters emphasizing this same point changes things. oonoki too btw thinks only hashirama can stop madara. surely he's witnessed what sarutobi can do? Why not mention him as well?

Hashirama and madara by virtue of their hype, feats, and by how naruto and sasuke are considered to be their parallels are clearly superior ninja.

btw if you take irukas statement about hiruzen so seriously, why don't you also take what jiraiya or A had to say about minato as seriously? Others have also been called strongest and unsurpassable as well... why not give those statements the credence you feel irukas statement deserves.


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## Sniffers (Jun 9, 2012)

The way I see it is that Hashirama is the strongest. His feats were largely waved off as fairy tales which made people consider Sarutobi as the strongest, but in reality Hashirama really was that ridiculously strong. Note how Hashirama's hype consists of having exceptional chakra and scale of Jutsu.

On the other hand we have Minato, who represents genius and skill. He's not the strongest, but his genius intellect and skill make up for the lack in raw power. Minato vs Hashirama would be a fight of raw power vs genius. Not sure which prevails (although Minato is a Sue) so I rate them equally high on the whole.


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## shintebukuro (Jun 9, 2012)

Mickie said:
			
		

> I'm done here, people have 0 proof to prove Hashirama>Prime Hiruzen.



Who gives a fuck?

Are we like fucking trial lawyers where were have to protect the innocent from being falsely accused and thus need to prove everything beyond a reasonable doubt, no questions asked?

No. We're talking about a comic book. The statement in the manga about Hiruzen was made 10 years ago, and tons of shit about Hashirama has been retconned like fucking crazy. 

We need to talk about what's most _probable_ and what will _likely be supported in the future_ by the author. Not hang on to a statement from 10 years ago and say "Hey dude, you can't technically prove my statement wrong, so that means I'm right." That's how a 12 year-old thinks.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 9, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> The way I see it is that Hashirama is the strongest. His feats were largely waved off as fairy tales which made people consider Sarutobi as the strongest, but in reality Hashirama really was that ridiculously strong. Note how Hashirama's hype consists of having exceptional chakra and scale of Jutsu.
> 
> On the other hand we have Minato, who represents genius and skill. He's not the strongest, but his genius intellect and skill make up for the lack in raw power. Minato vs Hashirama would be a fight of raw power vs genius. Not sure which prevails (although Minato is a Sue) so I rate them equally high on the whole.



At least we can take solace in the fact that he doesn't pull out hax eye techniques when the situation calls for it. He may win just about every fight he's in, but he does it with kunais, Rasengans, seals, and Hiraishin.


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 9, 2012)

considering Hashirama fought with 8 tailed beast I would think so.


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## Sniffers (Jun 9, 2012)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> At least we can take solace in the fact that he doesn't pull out hax eye techniques when the situation calls for it. He may win just about every fight he's in, but he does it with kunais, Rasengans, seals, and Hiraishin.


Honestly, that contract seal he used against Tobi was mighty convenient. So was the ability to teleport Biju blasts. Minato also has answers to whatever is thrown at him. That's why he's so good.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 9, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Honestly, that contract seal he used against Tobi was mighty convenient. So was the ability to teleport Biju blasts. Minato also has answers to whatever is thrown at him. That's why he's so good.



But they were natural extensions of what we already knew about him, no? Don't you think it's natural for Minato, a seal master, to have the contract seal? Also, the barrier falls in line with his use S/T Jutsu. Basically, they weren't hard to swallow, were they?


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## Sniffers (Jun 9, 2012)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> But they were natural extensions of what we already knew about him, no? Don't you think it's natural for Minato, a seal master, to have the contract seal? Also, the barrier falls in line with his use S/T Jutsu. Basically, they weren't hard to swallow, were they?


It's okay. It's just super convenient if you get what I mean. Izanami was also on the horizon, but it too was convenient in the current situation. It's not like they come out of nowhere, but they are still convenient.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jun 9, 2012)

Totally                     understandable.


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## King Scoop (Jun 9, 2012)

alchemy1234 said:


> Don't want to get into this debate, but had to point out that this point is a ridiculous one. hiruzen's confidence doesn't mean shit here. he was confident before the fight that he couldn't stop orochimaru. so would this mean orochimaru >>> Edo hashirama and tobirama?
> 
> anyway, its obvious this is a retcon. btw dan having witnessed hiruzen in his prime and still saying that only hashirama can beat madara does in fact contradict hiruzens position. Dans statement as a standalone statement wouldn't hold much weight, as you could argue the A>B>C logic doesn't apply (which btw to quite a degree in this manga it does, seeing how its all become about power levels), however other characters emphasizing this same point changes things. oonoki too btw thinks only hashirama can stop madara. surely he's witnessed what sarutobi can do? Why not mention him as well?
> 
> ...



The one good thing I like about this manga is that many of the fights are about matchups. Hiruzen can defeat Hashirama and still lose to Madara. All 3 were virtual equals, they all had the power to defeat one but not the other. The 3 of them are basically on the same level.




Sniffers said:


> The way I see it is that Hashirama is the strongest. His feats were largely waved off as fairy tales which made people consider Sarutobi as the strongest, but in reality Hashirama really was that ridiculously strong. Note how Hashirama's hype consists of having exceptional chakra and scale of Jutsu.
> 
> On the other hand we have Minato, who represents genius and skill. He's not the strongest, but his genius intellect and skill make up for the lack in raw power. Minato vs Hashirama would be a fight of raw power vs genius. Not sure which prevails (although Minato is a Sue) so I rate them equally high on the whole.



That's the thing, Hiruzen also represented genius and skill, just like Orochimaru, Sasuke, Kakashi, and Itachi. Hashirama was a powerhouse like Jiraiya, Naruto, Kisame, and the Raikage. Like I said earlier, it's all about matchups. A person's power can overcome someone's skill, but a person's skill can also overcome a person's power.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 9, 2012)

CrazyMoronX said:


> Until we have solid manga proof of what happened in the fight, then no. It is not over.



This. Without the specifics of the fight we don't know how or what was done to defeat Madara.

Fights do consist of more than just one dude punching the other really hard. Power does not always determine the winner.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 9, 2012)

Wasn't it stated in the manga that the 1st > 3rd Hokage?

I don't know why we are debating this.


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## Fatal Warrior (Jun 9, 2012)

Ah, I remember the days NarutoForums ended debates with "A>B>C logic doesn't work"



B Rabbit said:


> Wasn't it stated in the manga that the 1st > 3rd Hokage?
> 
> I don't know why we are debating this.



Because it was stated the other way around?


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## Gilgamesh (Jun 9, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> considering Hashirama fought with 8 tailed beast I would think so.



It was never said he used them in battle only that he gained some and then gave them away to the other villages


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 9, 2012)

Muusama said:


> .
> however we have the author telling us multiple times that Hashirama was more powerful than Madara.



More powerful or a superior ninja?


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## n0thinglasts (Jun 10, 2012)

Hamaru said:


> Don't respond to me with such a pathetic reply. Raw power is just one of Shodai's advantages over Sarutobi. His ability to heal himself is another. Without even counting the bijuu control, name how Sarutobi would beat Shodai. Tell me his advantage. You have no idea how tactical Shoai was as a fighter. If you do, tell me how you know. Don't act like destruction power means nothing when Sarutobi hasn't shown anything to deal with the level of power being talked about.
> 
> Do yourself a favor and jump on Minato's dick, he would have a better chance.



He would teleport behind him then seal him in the belly of the death god for all eternity before shodai knew what was going on 

Minato better chance than Sarutobi? LOL at least Shodai had wood jutsu which Sarutobi doesn't know, on the other hand Sarutobi has every jutsu Minato knows mastered to use along with his thousands of other S class jutsu's that we have never seen.


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## Grendel (Jun 10, 2012)

n0thinglasts said:


> He would teleport behind him then seal him in the belly of the death god for all eternity before shodai knew what was going on
> 
> Minato better chance than Sarutobi? LOL at least Shodai had wood jutsu which Sarutobi doesn't know, on the other hand Sarutobi has every jutsu Minato knows mastered to use along with his thousands of other S class jutsu's that we have never seen.



Hiruzen has shown no ability to duplicate any of Minato's s/t jutsu...


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## Prince Vegeta (Jun 10, 2012)

Prime Hiruzen> Hashirama> Minato > Tsunade>Tobirama


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## First Tsurugi (Jun 10, 2012)

Never doubt Shodai.



Prince Vegeta said:


> Prime Hiruzen> Hashirama> Minato > Tsunade>Tobirama



Prime Hiruzen is a myth.


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## Golden Circle (Jun 10, 2012)

Yes it is over. That is until we start seeing feats from the Second.

So don't hold your breath for this debate ever finishing.


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## Tony Lou (Jun 10, 2012)

I've never heard of a fandom that actually gave up. The battle will continue.

But for neutral people, it's surely over.


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## Final Jutsu (Jun 10, 2012)

There are problems.  Madara stated only hashirama could defeat him.  Did he ever witness Prime Hiruzen or Minato though?  His statement includes Tobirama by the looks.  Dan stated only Hashirama could defeat Madara.  His statement could include Prime Hiruzen.  Since he was around when Hiruzen was still fairly young.  Minato was still too young though when Dan died.  Minato is the only one excluded for the moment when both comments are taken into account.  Though, one could simply state that A>B>C logic doesn't always apply.  One also can't ignore that Hiruzen was clearly stated as being stronger in his prime than Hashirama and Tobirama.  That was part 1, but the retcon is still debatable, and not confirmed.  Hashirama has never been called the strongest hokage by anyone.  Him being called the strongest in the world has also been refrained to his own time period.


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## Hasan (Jun 10, 2012)

Eh, Sarutobi is still the strongest, no matter how you look at it. Hashirama's character is more developed than Sarutobi's, his abilities are explored in details—nothing more. I could enlist Kakashi's accomplishments and abilities, and judge him the strongest...would you agree then?

It's rather interesting to note, Hiruzen was shown to counter Mokuton _effortlessly_ [account for power-scaling]. Also, this isn't the first time we have heard of someone, capable of dealing with Bijuu-like power...

There's no retcon in any way; people are impatient, that's all....a while ago, they were saying the same thing about Kabuto's past being a retcon, The Kikyou Pass reference. It was cleared a chapter later...


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## Danzio (Jun 10, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Prime Hiruzen is a myth.



A myth that is said to be the strongest Hokage.


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## Namikaze Minato Flash (Sep 19, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> I doubt you could shoot it so, no.
> If you mean canon, it sure as hell isn't either. There is no requirement on the number of jutsu one must possess or on elemental recompositions or anything. There are only two real requirements to get accepted as kage. Strength and the will to protect the village and one's comrades with one's life.



Link removed
^Ebisu says hi...


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## eyeknockout (Sep 19, 2012)

itachi > rikudo sennin > hashirama > minato > third hokage > 2nd hokage >>>>>>> tsunade


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 19, 2012)

Minato > all as stated by Kishimoto countless times.

Minato's sperm cell > Minato at the end of the manga, as confirmed by Kishimoto.

Move on already.


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## HK-47 (Sep 19, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Minato > all as stated by Kishimoto countless times.
> 
> Minato's sperm cell > Minato at the end of the manga, as confirmed by Kishimoto.
> 
> Move on already.



Last I checked, all of the "Final Villains" and their grandmothers were using Hashirama Cells, not Minato cells. 

Try again son.


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## Namikaze Minato Flash (Sep 19, 2012)

@Elite - I necro bumped this thread after looking up some of my previous posts. Felt I had to address several replies to mine despite them being several months old since I forgot about the thread lol...


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 19, 2012)

HK-47 said:


> Last I checked, all of the "Final Villains" and their grandmothers were using Hashirama Cells, not Minato cells.
> 
> Try again son.



Last time I checked Minato's sperm cells shitted on the "Final Villains"


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## HK-47 (Sep 19, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Last time I checked Minato's sperm cells shitted on the "Final Villains"



What? Naruto? Who's still getting smacked around by Madara and his little pet?


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## God Hand (Sep 19, 2012)

This debate will finally be over when you all accept the fact Tobirama is better then the rest.................................at everything.


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## αce (Sep 19, 2012)

> Minato > all as stated by Kishimoto countless times.



Actually as stated directly by the author, and not statements by knowledgie lacking characters, Madara is the only top tier that was distinguished from the rest.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 19, 2012)

Tobirama is the strongest he had edo tensei.


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## αce (Sep 19, 2012)

His Edo Tensei is no where as good as Kabuto's.


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## Krippy (Sep 19, 2012)

Should have been obvious as soon we saw the strongest person in the manga masterbating to his mental image.


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## Fear (Sep 19, 2012)

I believe in Yondaime


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 19, 2012)

HK-47 said:


> What? Naruto? Who's still getting smacked around by Madara and his little pet?



Wanna bet our accounts that Minato's sperm cell > all at the end of the manga. Yes, 17yr old Minato sperm cell > all. 



@Ochema, Madara has never seen Minato. In fact, he probably doesnt know that Naruto, the new RS, is Minato's sperm cell.


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## shadowmaria (Sep 19, 2012)

Minato may be good in the sack, Kushina will tell, but that doesn't place him anywhere near the level of dat Madara


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## Turrin (Sep 19, 2012)

I don't see anything definitive that can be used to decided the strongest Hokage. At this point it all comes down to fan opinion as to whose hype or accomplishments are suppose to be seen as superior. 

My opinion right now is that it's a close call between Hashirama and Minato, based on the current information we have available to us.


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## raizen28 (Sep 19, 2012)

last time I checked if Minato didnt save Konoha and his son...
It wouldnt any "NARUTO"  that goes along with knowing the Existence of the FinalVillian Characters.


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## raizen28 (Sep 19, 2012)

Yeah when Hashirama Died I bet he Started Edo Tenseing him.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Sep 19, 2012)

Was there any need for a debate?

We all know the answer and its "FLEE ON SIGHT"



Too late, Minato just soloed your thread


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## PHAT Rasengan (Sep 19, 2012)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Yep.
> 
> Hashirama>Minato>Hiruzen(Prime)>Tsunade>=Danzo



This looks about right.


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## HoriMaori (Sep 19, 2012)

Namikaze Minato > Prime Hiruzen > Senju Hashirama > Senju Tobirama  > Tsunade

Based on what we've seen so far. 

Hashirama has Mokuton Kajukai Korin and Tobirama has Edo Tensei and S/T Jutsu, yet their Edo's got Reaped by Old Hiruzen WTF??

I personally think 

Namikaze Minato >  Senju Hashirama > Senju Tobirama  > Prime Hiruzen > Tsunade


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## Trojan (Sep 20, 2012)

Hamaru said:


> Seriously, the whole debate about who is stronger out of Shodai, Minato, and Sarutobi should be done away with. In the beginning it was thought that Shodai's biggest threat in his fight against Madara was the Kyuubi. Now we see that Madara has crazy destructive power on the same level as tailed beast, and out of all the tailed beast, I don't see any of them other than the 8 & 9 tails packing complete Susanoo's  destructive power.
> 
> I use to always argue that Shodai was stronger since he had to go against EMS Madara + the Kyuubi. Now we see that it was a fight against two mountain busters and Shodai. NOBODY else in the manga could take on Prime Madara and his 9-tailed pet, period.





> NOBODY else in the manga could take on Prime Madara and his 9-tailed pet, period



Kashi told you that? Anyway, if Hashi did that against Madara & Kurama

let's remember the third defeat him & his brother & he took oro's Jutsu
NOBODY else in the manga could take on Hashi and his brother together  NOT even Madara.


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## JPongo (Sep 20, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Prime Hiruzen is a myth.



Healthy Itachi is mythier.



eyeknockout said:


> itachi > rikudo sennin > hashirama > minato > third hokage > 2nd hokage >>>>>>> tsunade



Disturbing.



cosmovsgoku said:


> Minato may be good in the sack, Kushina will tell, but that doesn't place him anywhere near the level of dat Madara



An edo Madara that has been equipped with much more than he ever was in his prime?



TorJaN said:


> let's remember the third defeat him & his brother & he took oro's Jutsu
> NOBODY else in the manga could take on Hashi and his brother together  NOT even Madara.



Hashi beat Madara.
Hiruzen beat Hashi and Tobirama edos with MINATO's jutsu.
Minato outperformed old Hiruzen during the kyuubi attack along with schooling Obito one more time.

Only Naruto can ever hope to surpass the fourth hokage.

Believe IT!!


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 20, 2012)

Hashirama > Tobirama > Hiruzen (Prime) > Minato > Tsunade

Shodai can likely solo the other four shinobi.


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## Chuck (Sep 20, 2012)

The moment The Valley of the End was shown it immediately hinted that Hashirama was simply on another level compared to the other Hokages.


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## kuruizaki (Sep 20, 2012)

Wait til Naruto becomes Hokage... and the flaming debate will start anew.


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## Black☆Star (Sep 20, 2012)

It's pretty obvious that Hashirama is the strongest


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## kzk (Sep 20, 2012)

Really depends on whether or not you want to go with feats or hype. Both of them have their drawbacks.


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## Captain Dupe (Sep 20, 2012)

Hashirama>>Minato>=<Prime Hiruzen>>Tobirama>>Tsunade/Danzo.


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## Rain (Sep 20, 2012)

Hashirama > Tobirama > Minato > Danzo > Hiruzen > Tsunade.


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## Chibason (Sep 20, 2012)

Hashirama was the strongest, but Minato was the most skilled....thats how I see it.


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## lonesome devil (Sep 20, 2012)

sage of 6 paths 1st hokage madara ems top 3 but lots of powerful ninja from all villages and the lighting village look like a force the mist got off but the leaf by far product the best 1st hokage madara naruto sasuke .


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## ImSerious (Sep 20, 2012)

> Hiruzen defeated Hashi + Tobirama + Orochimaru
> Hiruzen directly admitted inferiority to Minato


Minato > Hiruzen > Hashirama > Madara


----------



## lazybum (Sep 20, 2012)

lonesome devil said:


> sage of 6 paths 1st hokage madara ems top 3 but lots of powerful ninja from all villages and the lighting village look like a force the mist got off but the leaf by far product the best 1st hokage madara naruto sasuke .



Ever heard of punctuation?


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 20, 2012)

*1)* Hashirama Senju
*2)* Hiruzen Sarutobi
*3)* Minato Namikaze
*4)* Tsunade 
*5)* Tobirama Senju

Hashirama's mokuton is incredibly hax, and he himself has the ability to combat a Perfect Susano'o Madara. I couldn't care less what a random ANBU said about Hiruzen, Hashirama is ; by a clear mile, the most powerful Hokage and indeed _Kage_ in history. Hiruzen in his prime was presumably very powerful, hence his title _God of Shinobi_ - though his Part I feats were very average, I gave him the benefit of the doubt by placing him as the second strongest.

Minato is obviously stronger than Tsunade or Tobirama - his feats are greater than any of the formers, and the latters few feats and hype he has is nothing compared to that of Minato's. Tobirama's hype as a suiton master was nullified whenever Mei Terumi, Kisame, and even fodder shinobi were able to replicate his feats, by performing suiton without a source. He was nearly defeated by Kinkaku and Ginkaku, and in terms of plot relevance, he's been mentioned nowhere near as much as the other Kage. As such, I believe Tsunade is a cut above him.​


----------



## Eliyua23 (Sep 20, 2012)

This debate is only between Minato and Hashirama and it ain't even close, Hiruzen deffered to Minato twice , Minato is the father of the main character and has been hyped as the savior of the world, Hashirama's very power is the power behind this entire war and the eye of the moon plan. VOTE hasn't even been discussed yet making me believe it's the highest level of power that will be displayed in the manga.


Hashirama=Minato>Tsunade>/=Hiruzen>Tobirama in my opinion based off feats, plot importance ect.


----------



## Khazzar (Sep 20, 2012)

*Thy wood and thy Bijuu comfort me.*


----------



## Shikamaru Shadowboy (Sep 20, 2012)

Obviously, the debate is not over.

Its always gonna be between Minato and Hashi until somebody comes along and says somebody is better than both of them, then people will get upset and move to an entirely differrent tier of ninja that has nothing to do with the strongest hokage.
If you wish to get serious and literal, Tsunade is the * strongest* hokage.


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## sakurateff (Sep 20, 2012)

Tsunade In my opinion, this being a woman, Let's look at in Chapter 601, was the only one conscious state unlike other Kagues.

Although I feel that this die.

So I frankly do not know who the sustitura, probably Kakashi.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 20, 2012)

As stated multiple times by countless characters and the creator, Kishimoto, Minato is the strongest Hokage ever and is unsurpassable. The only ninja who can surpass him is the Legendary New RS, Naruto, the sperm cell of Minato.

Minato > Shodai = Prime Hiruzen > Tobirama > Tsunade.

Sadly, even Minato died so young. Let Minato reach his prime or give the sharingan and he is clear above RS.


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## shintebukuro (Sep 20, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> As stated multiple times by countless characters and the creator, Kishimoto, Minato is the strongest Hokage ever and is unsurpassable. The only ninja who can surpass him is the Legendary New RS, Naruto, the sperm cell of Minato.
> 
> Minato > Shodai = Prime Hiruzen > Tobirama > Tsunade.
> 
> Sadly, even Minato died so young. Let Minato reach his prime or give the sharingan and he is clear above RS.



You should really make your trolling a little more subtle.


----------



## Vergil642 (Sep 20, 2012)

I think it's mostly accepted that Hashirama>all Kages ever.

Only a few diehard Minato and Hiruzen fans argue otherwise. Poorly at that.


----------



## Udontard4ever (Sep 20, 2012)

we're the new tobito believers


----------



## ThunderRaikage (Sep 20, 2012)

minato stronger than hasirama ? omg..
i want to see how minato could handle madara ems with perfect susanoo+kyuubi..


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## MinatoEMS (Sep 20, 2012)

Hamaru said:


> Seriously, the whole debate about who is stronger out of Shodai, Minato, and Sarutobi should be done away with. In the beginning it was thought that Shodai's biggest threat in his fight against Madara was the Kyuubi. Now we see that Madara has crazy destructive power on the same level as tailed beast, and out of all the tailed beast, I don't see any of them other than the 8 & 9 tails packing complete Susanoo's  destructive power.
> 
> I use to always argue that Shodai was stronger since he had to go against EMS Madara + the Kyuubi. Now we see that it was a fight against two mountain busters and Shodai. NOBODY else in the manga could take on Prime Madara and his 9-tailed pet, period.



I disagree..Minato has shown skills of dealing with mountain busting attacks with ease.

And besides A > B =/= > C 

It all depends on who your opponent is and his set of skills.


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## JPongo (Sep 20, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> You should really make your trolling a little more subtle.



But then it wouldn't sound so convincing



Vergil642 said:


> I think it's mostly accepted that Hashirama>all Kages ever.
> 
> Only a few diehard Minato and Hiruzen fans argue otherwise. Poorly at that.



At least it's a lot better than arguing for anything Uchiha, arsepull lot they are



ThunderRaikage said:


> minato stronger than hasirama ? omg..
> i want to see how minato could handle madara ems with perfect susanoo+kyuubi..



One word: SEALS.

And I'm not talking fat and lazy ones at the beach


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## Dr. White (Sep 20, 2012)

Faustus said:


> OP, you obviously forgot that manga has already confirmed Shodai gained control over Kurama and it was actually Shodai+Kurama against Madara
> 
> But of course Hashirama is the strongest.



IIRC the manga never stated he directly used Kyuubi.. In fact it suggest he wrest it from Madara, beat him and then sealed in Mito.

The one scan we have of Hashirama shows him actively binding the kyuubi while EMS Madara flies down with scythe and fan in hand on the attack. Both men are brushed and bleeding under the full moon indicating they had been fighting for quite sometime. No real de-hype and Hashirama's part there.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 20, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> *IIRC the manga never stated he directly used Kyuubi.. In fact it suggest he wrest it from Madara, beat him and then sealed in Mito.*
> 
> The one scan we have of Hashirama shows him actively binding the kyuubi while EMS Madara flies down with scythe and fan in hand on the attack. Both men are brushed and bleeding under the full moon indicating they had been fighting for quite sometime. No real de-hype and Hashirama's part there.



You dont remember correctly. "In order to better aid him [Shodai], Mito sealed it inside her own body"


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## αce (Sep 20, 2012)

Vergil642 said:


> I think it's mostly accepted that Hashirama>all Kages ever.
> 
> Only a few diehard Minato and Hiruzen fans argue otherwise. Poorly at that.




Sadly this.


----------



## Kor (Sep 20, 2012)

Hey guys, remember when Susano was first shown? That shit was balanced back then when Itachi showcased it. Now it's just 

The more levels of Susano there is the less impressive the lower levels get, or rather the more that it is shown the less impressive it becomes.



Elite Uchiha said:


> You dont remember correctly. "In order to better aid him [Shodai], Mito sealed it inside her own body"



Sealing it in her doesn't really guarantee instant mastery or expert control over the chakra.


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## Dr. White (Sep 20, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> You dont remember correctly. "In order to better aid him [Shodai], Mito sealed it inside her own body"



Lol that means that he took control of the Kyuubi and Sealed it inside Mito so he could finish Madara off 1v1..


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## HoriMaori (Sep 20, 2012)

The debate will never be over as long as there are fanboys who interpret the manga in such a way that makes their fav character seem strongest.

I'm a huge Minato fan, but Hashirama just seems too beast, even though Kishi is a Minato fanboy and portrays him as being the coolest cat out


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 20, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Lol that means that he took control of the Kyuubi and Sealed it inside Mito so he could finish Madara off 1v1..



Why does it say Mito sealed it? Please explain


----------



## zenieth (Sep 20, 2012)

Hashirama likely is the physical strongest.

Though honestly it doesn't really matter when 99% of the verse can't tank a kunai to the face. So the thing to question is if he was also the most skilled shinobi.


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## Dr. White (Sep 20, 2012)

zenieth said:


> Hashirama likely is the physical strongest.
> 
> Though honestly it doesn't really matter when 99% of the verse can't tank a kunai to the face. So the thing to question is if he was also the most skilled shinobi.



-Mokuton/Suiton/Doton soloes most of the damn verse.

-Bringer of Darkness can really only be countered by not looking when he cast jutsu.

-Mokuton clones with insta regen, really?

-Poisonous Plant pollen across a whole battlefield?

-Reactions/speed good enough to constantly fight on par with an MS user Madara Uchiha, and then EMS Madara + Kyuubi.

-Best healer in the manga.

-Inherited the Sage's body therefore gains tremendous life force/Chakra amounts. His DNA is still used by multiple Top Tiers today for purposes of Regen, Stamina boost, and his super rare and effective techniques.


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## Dr. White (Sep 20, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Why does it say Mito sealed it? Please explain



Because she sealed it....Hashirama still had to tame the beast and take it from Madara's control, also we have scans of EMS Madara with Kyuubi fighting Hashirama for extended amounts of time so I have all the proof I need


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## Charl55es (Sep 20, 2012)

I think Hashirama was retconned to be the strongest Hokage.


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## Burke (Sep 20, 2012)

Frawstbite said:


> If Tobirama was only as half as strong as his brother he would have been a beast as well. I wonder how big the gap between them was.



Tobirama invented spacetime jutsu and edo tensei
id say the gap isnt big


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 20, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> Because she sealed it....Hashirama still had to tame the beast and take it from Madara's control, also we have scans of EMS Madara with Kyuubi fighting Hashirama for extended amounts of time so I have all the proof I need



How does one scan show the whole fight. I can pull out any scan from a battle and have the same logic as you.

Mito + SHodai > Madara. Directly stated by the manga.


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## Punished Pathos (Sep 20, 2012)

Hiruzen Gaiden= NF closing and Posters getting permabanned.


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## αce (Sep 20, 2012)

elite uchiha, it was already stated that hashirama gained control over the kyuubi from madara, so mito sealing kyuubi doesn't mean jack shit since shodai already took it from madara. it was his power from that point on.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Sep 20, 2012)

The debate will never end as long as one person excercises their right to disagree. And people are entitled to their own opinions.



Dr. White said:


> -Mokuton/Suiton/Doton soloes most of the damn verse.
> 
> -Bringer of Darkness can really only be countered by not looking when he cast jutsu.



Or non-visual sensor abilities, like Sage Mode sensing or Minato's and Tobirama's finger sensing technique...

I agree though that Hashirama is the strongest Hokage in terms of raw power...but is he the most skilled? That's my question.


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## lathia (Sep 20, 2012)

As far as hype goes, I put them on equal grounds (even though Minato should be ahead just because of Naruto.) When comparing jutsu with large scale, there is no doubt Hashirama takes it. It's too bad that's never the deciding factor. Shikki Fujin, the great equalizer. Unless, you can prove me wrong.


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## zenieth (Sep 20, 2012)

Dr. White said:


> -Mokuton/Suiton/Doton soloes most of the damn verse.
> 
> -Bringer of Darkness can really only be countered by not looking when he cast jutsu.
> 
> ...



All of these are powerful techniques. These do not mean he's crazily skilled with them.

Also there's no proof he's the best Healer in the manga, only that he's got the best regen and I'd say not even that considering Jin's are comparable.


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## G Felon (Sep 20, 2012)

Seems like everyone's forgetting when hiruzen soloed hashirama and tobirama at the same time

Hiruzen > hashirama+tobirama > minato> tsunade


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## G Felon (Sep 20, 2012)

ImSerious said:


> > Hiruzen defeated Hashi + Tobirama + Orochimaru
> > Hiruzen directly admitted inferiority to Minato
> 
> 
> Minato > Hiruzen > Hashirama > Madara



When did hiruzen admit inferiority to minato?


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 20, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> elite uchiha, it was already stated that hashirama gained control over the kyuubi from madara, so mito sealing kyuubi doesn't mean jack shit since shodai already took it from madara. it was his power from that point on.



Mito sealed it for Shodai to aid him. Im not sure how else Kishimoto could have put it


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## Kahvehane (Sep 20, 2012)

None of the "strongest ever" debates will ever really be over.


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## JPongo (Sep 21, 2012)

Uchiha fans seem to cling to Hashi being strongest coz current Madara still faps to that Senju dude.  They got no excuse anymore but to accept it.

But Minato has SPEED, best use of S/T for both offense and defense and SEALS namely SF and hakke.  Seals trump anything and Minato has that skill in spades.

If it's comparable to David vs. Goliath, well you know what happened in that story.

Believe IT!!


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 21, 2012)

You speak the truth Jpongo. One of the very few logical people left on this forum. 

Anyone who beats an Uchiha automatically seems to be superior to any other ninja, even though the Senju have been kicking their asses for centuries.


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## HashiraMadara (Sep 21, 2012)

Hashirama by miles, then probably Tobirama since he has Edo Tensei, Jikukan, Kage level Suitons, and if none of that mattered he's still a Senju, the clan reputed as the strongest.
Minato would be a close 3rd, in fact with Rasengan, Hiraishin, Shikki Fuujin, Contract seal and his amazing reflexes along with his razor sharp analysis he's the one i'd consider being a perfect mixture of genius brains along with strong ninjutsu and good taijutsu.


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## Morgan (Sep 21, 2012)

Hiruzen was said to be the strongest of the Kage and his databook stats were 5 for Nin,  Tai, Gen and Int. This is the only reason why I would be inclined to think that he may actually be the strongest. However, I don't see Minato losing to either Hiruzen or Hashirama when such speed displayed by the fourth is involved. Yes, his techniques don't create valleys or blast away mountains, but that doesn't mean he can't overcome his opponents with his speed, precision and intelligence. Hashirama has no known technique that Minato could not get by, despite the Madara hype.


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## HashiraMadara (Sep 21, 2012)

That doesn't mean Minato could get in close to Hashirama either, Hashirama has Mokuton bunshin, Jukai Koutan and can rip you apart with Mokuton easily.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Sep 21, 2012)

HashiraMadara said:


> That doesn't mean Minato could get in close to Hashirama either, Hashirama has Mokuton bunshin, Jukai Koutan and can rip you apart with Mokuton easily.



The problem is that Hashirama would have a hard time hitting Minato. Minato only needs to touch Hashirama once to apply the Hiraishin seal. After that it's game over.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 21, 2012)

It all comes down to whether you think the fastest ninja in the world, who was hailed as the saviour of the ninja world and unsurpassable, can touch an opponent once.


----------



## Black☆Star (Sep 21, 2012)

What is Rasengan going to do to Hashirama ?


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## Federer (Sep 21, 2012)

Stronger than the Gokage, but weaker than a Sarutobi? 


Yeah right............you can put all the Hokage against Hashirama and the latter might still edge the win.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 21, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> What is Rasengan going to do to Hashirama ?



You mean what is a kunai to the head going to do


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## Shattering (Sep 21, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> You mean what is a kunai to the head going to do



Nothing


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Sep 21, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> What is Rasengan going to do to Hashirama ?


Instead of asking yourself what one rasengan will do, ask yourself what multiple rasengans in quick succession will do. Or do you really think that once Minato tags Hashirama, he's just going to hit him with one and one rasengan only and give up if it fails...


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## Black☆Star (Sep 21, 2012)

RikudouHiraishin813 said:


> Instead of asking yourself what one rasengan will do, ask yourself what multiple rasengans in quick succession will do. Or do you really think that once Minato tags Hashirama, he's just going to hit him with one and one rasengan only and give up if it fails...



You make it seem like Hashi is a training dummy, even so he tanks every Rasengan


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Sep 21, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> You make it seem like Hashi is a training dummy, even so he tanks every Rasengan


Hashi is a training dummy when Minato already has him tagged, which is what my post was assuming. If he gets tagged even just once, Minato can teleport to him at anytime and do this

this

except with a rasengan. And if that rasengan fails, he'll hit him with a continuous barrage of rasengan, which is much harder to tank


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## Black☆Star (Sep 21, 2012)

RikudouHiraishin813 said:


> Hashi is a training dummy when Minato already has him tagged, which is what my post was assuming. If he gets tagged even just once, Minato can teleport to him at anytime and do this
> 
> this
> 
> except with a rasengan. And if that rasengan fails, he'll hit him with a continuous barrage of rasengan, which is much harder to tank



Considering his medical powers surpasses even those of Tsunade, he tanks those Rasengan with low diff


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Sep 21, 2012)

You're underestimating how much damage multiple rasengans can do. Tobi has an inferior version of Hashi's regen, but just one rasengan took off an arm. Although Hashi's regen is obviously superior, is it enough to take multiple rasengans or even oodama rasengans in quick succession. And what if Minato blasts him in the head.

Of course, I'm not saying Minato wins, since it would be hard to get a tag on Hashi anyways. I'm just arguing under the assumption that he already has him tagged.


----------



## Oga Tatsumi (Sep 21, 2012)

Prime Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage.
Kishi even planned Madara vs Hashirama in Part 1 to be mountain buster yet still said Hiruzen was the history strongest Hokage.


----------



## Forlong (Sep 21, 2012)

Why does it matter, since Naruto will become Hokage in a short amount of time?  He pwns all!


----------



## insane111 (Sep 21, 2012)

Part 1: Sarutobi was the strongest
Part 2: Kishi changed his mind and retconned it, now Hashirama is the strongest

Anyone who thinks otherwise has their selective reading goggles tightly strapped on.


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## Elite Uchiha (Sep 21, 2012)

Shattering said:


> Nothing



This was actually pretty funny, since Shodai head would be rolling on the ground


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## egressmadara (Sep 21, 2012)

It depends on what you consider as more important evidence; feats or statements.


----------



## Kor (Sep 21, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> This was actually pretty funny, since Shodai head would be rolling on the ground



Not really.

Hashirama DNA activates and as the kunai goes through his head/neck his insta-healing kicks in and he's back to normal.


----------



## Addy (Sep 21, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I think Hashirama is the strongest, but I'm going to wait till we see more from Prime Hiruzen & Minato, to be 100% sure.



i doubt we will see anything to be honest. i mean, minato vs tobi was very disappointing for me simply because i expected more from minato. as for hiruzen, i don't think kishi even remembers him


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Sep 21, 2012)

Kor said:


> Not really.
> 
> Hashirama DNA activates and as the kunai goes through his head/neck his insta-healing kicks in and he's back to normal.


When has Hashirama regen'd at this level. Show me scans?


----------



## Ricky Sen (Sep 21, 2012)

Kor said:


> Not really.
> 
> Hashirama DNA activates and as the kunai goes through his head/neck his insta-healing kicks in and he's back to normal.




*Spoiler*: __ 




fanfiction.net




We don't know how good his healing factor was. This shit is almost battledome level.


----------



## Danzio (Sep 21, 2012)

I know a lot of people, naturally, adapted the whole “what have you done for me lately?” attitude, but without open contradictions within the discussed subject, by the author, the facts will remain the same. It doesn’t matter if it occurred 500 chapters ago or last week the manga is still the same.It seems most are confused what a retcon really is. 



Simply deal with it.


----------



## Quikdraw7777 (Sep 21, 2012)

Danzio said:


> I know a lot of people, naturally, adapted the whole ?what have you done for me lately?? attitude, but without open contradictions within the discussed subject, by the author, the facts will remain the same. It doesn?t matter if it occurred 500 chapters ago or last week the manga is still the same.It seems most are confused what a retcon really is.
> 
> 
> 
> Simply deal with it.



Taking an opinion from Iruka, eh?


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 21, 2012)

Kor said:


> Not really.
> 
> Hashirama DNA activates and as the kunai goes through his head/neck his insta-healing kicks in and he's back to normal.



fanfiction.net


----------



## JPongo (Sep 21, 2012)

Kor said:


> Not really.
> 
> Hashirama DNA activates and as the kunai goes through his head/neck his insta-healing kicks in and he's back to normal.



Sounds more like Oro than Hashi.


*Spoiler*: __ 



fanfiction.net


----------



## HashiraMadara (Dec 8, 2012)

I have no doubt Minato would fare decently against Shodai, But Minato was completely exhausted by the time he dealt with Tobi+Kurama and was near death when Kushina created a Kekkai to hold Kurama in place, Hashirama not only has Super Regen better than Byakugou, he also has super strength, and amazing vitality and stamina, Minato would be falling down dead from chakra exhaustion before Hashi even warms up.
Hashirama solos.


----------



## Inferno (Dec 8, 2012)

It's not hard to understand...it's been retcon'd many times.

Part 1: Prime Hiruzen >= Minato > Old Hiruzen > Hashirama

Early Part 2: Minato > ? (don't know rest of the order)

Current Part 2: Hashirama > Minato > Hiruzen


----------



## Revolution (Dec 8, 2012)




----------



## ZeroWolf123 (Dec 8, 2012)

Hashirama > minato > hiruzen


----------



## DeK3iDE (Dec 8, 2012)

it'll never be over because certain other Hokage's hardcore following will never want to accept it  They'll either claim retcon or that Hashirama was summoned as he was in his prime, even though Kabuto specifically said Madara was the only person ever summoned like that


----------



## Turrin (Dec 8, 2012)

Addy said:


> i doubt we will see anything to be honest. i mean, minato vs tobi was very disappointing for me simply because i expected more from minato. as for hiruzen, i don't think kishi even remembers him


I'm not sure what's more to expect. Minato handled Obito with greater ease than even Kakashi & BM Naruto, despite them having an even better tool for the Job (Kamui). On top of that he still had enough energy left to engage and seal the Fox. Also Kishimoto left things open ended so that he could even play the Minato was handicapped card, by saying he expended a great deal of his chakra suppressing Kurama during Kushina giving birth to Naruto.

As for Hiruzen, I tend to agree it's a long shot, but you never know.


----------



## Oga Tatsumi (Dec 8, 2012)

Minato> Prime Hiruzen>Hashirama>Tobirama>Tsunade


----------



## Mansali (Dec 8, 2012)

The next generation always surpassess the last one.

Hiruzen was most worried about facing Edo-Minato. He says so in the manga/anime that he must get rid of the coffin. Obviously it failed and Minato was not summoned (for obvious reasons that I wont go into) but it does show who Hiruzen feared more.

I say 4th > 3rd > [1st and 2nd]

The thing with Tsunade is that she was chosen out of necessity and for that reason does not fit this paatern. Also she is one generation above Minato.


----------



## The Prodigy (Dec 8, 2012)

They're all trash compared to Hashirama. 

None of the kages could've fought the 5 kages as well as Hashirama could have, none.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Dec 9, 2012)

I don't know why people can still realistically claim it's anyone but Hashirama.

People who say Minato are just clinging to their favorite character. 

People who say Hiruzen are clinging to Part 1 nostalgia. 

Funnily enough, nobody claims Tobirama is better even though he created the most haxxed jutsu in the manga. That kind of proves right there that it's all just favoritism and bias.

Feats and hype (and not only hype from Madara) both show that Hashirama was far and beyond anything the other four Hokage were shown or hyped to do.


----------



## SageEnergyMode (Dec 9, 2012)

Hashirama possesses the most raw power, but that's where it ends, I think. I see nothing about Hashirama that would make him incapable of being defeated by Minato's DeathGod Technique. Minato has the skill, the speed and the jutsu to defeat Hashirama.

Hashirama woulldn't even be able to see it coming, because nobody can see the DeathGod. Hashirama is incredibly powerful, I don't think he's better than Minato. The Third Hokage could also beat Hashirama, most likely, and he technically already has.

People are way too concerned with brute force power. Minato could absolutely take and likely defeat Hashirama.


----------



## Bonly (Dec 9, 2012)

I would say Hashirama is the strongest Kage. He got his own version of Byakugo,a genjutsu that takes away an enemy sight,Dat wood ,fought with EMS Madara with Kurama,create the leaf village,held the bijuu's at once and gave them to other villages and looked cool. The other kages just doesn't add up to him anymore.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Dec 9, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> Hashirama possesses the most raw power, but that's where it ends, I think. *I see nothing about Hashirama that would make him incapable of being defeated by Minato's DeathGod Technique.* Minato has the skill, the speed and the jutsu to defeat Hashirama.
> 
> Hashirama woulldn't even be able to see it coming, because *nobody can see the DeathGod*. Hashirama is incredibly powerful, I don't think he's better than Minato. *The Third Hokage could also beat Hashirama, most likely, and he technically already has.
> *
> People are way too concerned with brute force power. Minato could absolutely take and likely defeat Hashirama.



So basically, the only way any other hokage could defeat Hashirama is if they used a suicide jutsu that, once activated, is impossible to escape from.



Well, at least you have the courage to admit that.


----------



## Toonz (Dec 9, 2012)

Mickie said:


> Hashirama>Minato> Prime Hiruzen>>Tobirama>Tsunade



Fixed


----------



## SageEnergyMode (Dec 9, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> So basically, the only way any other hokage could defeat Hashirama is if they used a suicide jutsu that, once activated, is impossible to escape from.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, at least you have the courage to admit that.



Hey, it's the best argument I have, and that, in itself, is still very much a compliment to Hashirama. I really do believe that the Deathgod jutsu is the best technique in this entire manga. The only drawback is that you die when you use it, which is all the more reason why I'm convinced it is Naruto's "that jutsu."

There is literally nobody that Minato can't defeat with flying thunder god and the death god technique. The combination of those two things in the hands of a shinobi as outrageously skilled as Minato is, is the deadliest possible weapon.


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## Harbour (Dec 9, 2012)

Now its *Hashirama> Minato> Hiruzen>Tobirama>Tsunade obviously*
But i wont be surprised if it was Hashirama=Minato>Hiruzen>Tobirama>Tsunade
Why? I can explain.
1)The fight Hashirama+Mito vs Madara+Kyuubi and Minato+Kushina vs Obito+Kyuubi. Results: Mito sealed Kyuubi, Madara escaped; Obito escaped, Minato sealed Kyuubi and died. So, the winner(Hashirama) is obvious, right? Wrong.
The huge difference is the fact, that Mito wasnt the jinchuuriki before the Kyuubi sealing. So, she was healthy, alive and without troubles could seal Kyuubi. Kushina was the Jinchuuriki before the sealing, so she could only die after sealing. So, i can imaginge, that if Minato and Kushina met Madara+Kyuubi, Kushina could sealed Kyuubi and help her husband to defeat Madara.
2)The fact, that Kishimoto decide to make a HUGE upgrade of Madara. So, he really think, that Prime Madara too weak to be compared with Naruto, and compared with Rinnegan Obito. And we see, that Minato beat Obito with Kyuubi easily, and Naruto compared with Minato all times, even in RM. 
So, maybe the difference between Hashirama and Minato not so big, as we all imagine.


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## Xeogran (Dec 9, 2012)

Danzo with KA > Your favorite character.

=D


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## Trojan (Dec 9, 2012)

> Is the strongest Hokage debate finally over?



It's over since 8 or 9 years ago? 
The 3rd is the strongest, People who think Hashi is the strongest have no clue other than their own opinion which is not pretext. When Kishi told us that the 3rd is the strongest the other were died, so there is NO way that they will be stronger!

Just because we still see some of Hashi's power now that Never mean he didn't had them before. I think Madara's fan also want Hashi to be the strongest so there is no other character that become stronger that their favorite. @@


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## Godaime Kazekage (Dec 9, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> It's over since 8 or 9 years ago?
> The 3rd us the strongest, People who think Hashi is the strongest have no clue other that their own opinion which is not pretext. When Kishi told us that the 3rd is the strongest the other were died, so there is NO way that they will be stronger!
> 
> Just because we still see some of Hashi's power now that Never mean he didn't had them before. I think Madara's fan also want Hashi to be the strongest so there is no other character that become stronger that their favorite. @@



No. Hiruzen hasn't shown us anything that makes him truly extraordinary. He's shown us that he can't handle bijuus on his own, which likely means he can't handle Madara-level threats on his own. Guess who can, and did, do this. Hashirama did. Hashirama did and, to a far lesser extent, Minato as well.


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 9, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> It's over since 8 or 9 years ago?
> The 3rd us the strongest, People who think Hashi is the strongest have no clue other that their own opinion which is not pretext. When Kishi told us that the 3rd is the strongest the other were died, so there is NO way that they will be stronger!
> 
> Just because we still see some of Hashi's power now that Never mean he didn't had them before. I think Madara's fan also want Hashi to be the strongest so there is no other character that become stronger that their favorite. @@



How can people seriously still think it was Hiruzen, given the drastic power level changes since he died?

There is also the slight problem that Dan, who knew Hiruzen as a hokage, said that Hashirama was the only one who could stop Madara (unless I invented that, though I don't think I did). And this was significantly more recent.

Recent canon also shows just how powerful mokuton was. A single jutsu of Hashirama's was able to constrain the Kyuubi at VotE. Hiruzen couldn't do that at all.


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## Fluon (Dec 9, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I think Hashirama is the strongest, but I'm going to wait till we see more from Prime Hiruzen & Minato, to be 100% sure.



We already saw what Minato was able to do in his prime (30 yo is prime).



Black☆Star said:


> Considering his medical powers surpasses even those of Tsunade, he tanks those Rasengan with low diff



What will happend if he takes an Odama rasengan in the face ? Like on the nose not like the other when he just use it on the torso?


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## Pirao (Dec 9, 2012)

I go with author statements so until he states that someone other than Hiruzen is the strongest, he's still the strongest in my book.


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## Khazzar (Dec 9, 2012)

*I shall fear no shining eyes,thy wood and thy bijuu comfort me.*


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## ?_Camorra_? (Dec 9, 2012)

Id say its a tie between Minato and Hashirama. We havent seen enough of Minato to make a final judgement. The guy was known for his special sealing jutsus and we only saw Minato use 2 sealing techniques in his fight against Obito and Kurama. Plus even a Kage like Ei said that no one could surpass Minato, thats a lot of hype. The same Ei who loled at Sharingan's hype


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## Trojan (Dec 9, 2012)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> No. Hiruzen hasn't shown us anything that makes him truly extraordinary. He's shown us that he can't handle bijuus on his own, which likely means he can't handle Madara-level threats on his own. Guess who can, and did, do this. Hashirama did. Hashirama did and, to a far lesser extent, Minato as well.



He showed as he can defeat Hashi & his brother as once. 
Handle Bijuu? Please, and since when that's an argument? Kushina can
handle Bijuu by her own, that doesn't mean she's stronger than all. Lol

Oh, that so sweat, but guess what this old man who can't handle a Bijuu
what did to the one who defeated Madara & Kurama? Yes, he defeat Hashi
and his brother.

Not like Obito said this was his plan or anything .
destroyed their leg with simple tag
and took their life
Not like Obito said this was his plan or anything .



PikaCheeka said:


> How can people seriously still think it was Hiruzen, given the drastic power level changes since he died?
> 
> There is also the slight problem that Dan, who knew Hiruzen as a hokage, said that Hashirama was the only one who could stop Madara (unless I invented that, though I don't think I did). And this was significantly more recent.
> 
> Recent canon also shows just how powerful mokuton was. A single jutsu of Hashirama's was able to constrain the Kyuubi at VotE. Hiruzen couldn't do that at all.



Yes, the level does changed, but Haish's does not. 

No, it's only because Hashi was the one who fought Madara and defeat him
Also, Dan didn't say Sot6p does that mean Madara stronger than him? No
Next, we don't really know if Dan saw all of the 3rd power, just because he
lived around and died in the War that doesn't mean he know. 

What's up with these kind of Comparison? Just because he has power over
the Biju that doesn't mean he has the same over the others, otherwise,
Yamato should be stronger than all the Kages as well, other than Hashi! But
no, what helped him against the Biju didn't help him against the 3rd nor
even in the War when he died, did he fight against Biju? No they were normal
Ninja. More likely. 

Until Kishi said something other than that he's the strongest, no matter how
people think because sadly they can't change the reality.


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## MangaR (Dec 9, 2012)

*Hashirama* was know for his bijuu control(the ability itself is useless against shinobi) and enormous raw power. I was laughing at mokuton back then and i can't stop doing it right now. It is useless against most of top tier shinobies. Sure it can help you make some trees that genins can freely use to jump around. It can be destroyed or evade by any S class shinobi. It can't help you in close range if your fighting taijutsu expert as well. We saw alot of those techs from Madara and even some through Obito its not even close to give Minato or Hiruzen any kind of trouble. Madara constantly wanks him because Hashi was his rival back then. And even though he hates the guy after all those years fighting him he gain respect for his enemy. If someone thinks Madara right now would have any trouble facing Hashirama they are delusional.

*Tobirama.* Not much known about this guy. He created one of the most broken jutsu in history. But he used it for suicidal attacks, I can see him using fodders and not top tiers. Edo Tensei relies alot on ninja you're using and amount of them you can control at the same time. Thats why Kabuto's would be always classed as beyond S rank unlike original. 
He had some S/T technic even though we know nothing about it but the fact that it surely wasn't fast activating. Its possible that he was stronger than his brother as a ninja and not monster slayer.

*Old Hiruzen* handeled both Senju brothers at the same time. He showed himself to be more skilled and smart. He said that if he would be younger he wouldn't need to resort to suicidal technic. Obviously the guy knew sealing technics but couldn't use them because he had 2 constant strong opponents, 1 who backed them up, and 1 being his body. Hiruzen was a smoker, sure there are some people that smoke and are still in acceptable shape even at old age but mostly it dumps your health alot. Old Hiruzen feared only Minato. Obviously the guy was too smart, fast and didn't waste moves.

*Minato* was the greatest genius out of all hogakes, he had the best potential as well. For the enemies' luck he sacrificed himself way before his prime.

Minato > Old Hiruzen > Hashirama ? Tobirama

*God of Shinobi.* Hiruzen's arsenal should be way better, it was commented that even doing 2 clones is too much for him(smoker mind you) at his age. His stamina(needed to mold chakra as well) and strength dropped greatly and he was a taijutsu specialist in the same way he was ninjutsu pro. That took away alot from his overall strength.

Prime Minato* > God of Shinobi** > Minato> Hashirama*** > Old Hiruzen > Hashirama ? Tobirama

* will never exist for obvious reasons
** speculated by hype and its possible we'll see something close to this that will either prove or disprove the point
*** with multiple bijuus on his side

P.S. No Tsunade because her specialy is healing not killing. Even though i can see her dealing with Bijuuless Hashi or Tobirama with hard/mid difficulty.
No Old Danzo bacause he was too old and obviously had troubles with body. I can see any hokage outlasting him right now. Temporary immortality tech can help you so far.


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## Dominus (Dec 9, 2012)

Hiruzen (PRIME) is the strongest Hokage, no doubt about it ...


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## Rios (Dec 9, 2012)

Optimus Prime is the strongest Hokage.

Hiruzen is the Hypekage.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 9, 2012)

MangaR said:


> *Hashirama* was know for his bijuu control(the ability itself is useless against shinobi) and enormous raw power. I was laughing at mokuton back then and i can't stop doing it right now. It is useless against most of top tier shinobies. Sure it can help you make some trees that genins can freely use to jump around. It can be destroyed or evade by any S class shinobi. It can't help you in close range if your fighting taijutsu expert as well. We saw alot of those techs from Madara and even some through Obito its not even close to give Minato or Hiruzen any kind of trouble. Madara constantly wanks him because Hashi was his rival back then. And even though he hates the guy after all those years fighting him he gain respect for his enemy. If someone thinks Madara right now would have any trouble facing Hashirama they are delusional.
> 
> *Tobirama.* Not much known about this guy. He created one of the most broken jutsu in history. But he used it for suicidal attacks, I can see him using fodders and not top tiers. Edo Tensei relies alot on ninja you're using and amount of them you can control at the same time. Thats why Kabuto's would be always classed as beyond S rank unlike original.
> He had some S/T technic even though we know nothing about it but the fact that it surely wasn't fast activating. Its possible that he was stronger than his brother as a ninja and not monster slayer.
> ...



HASHIRAMA
1. If Hashirama bijuu control = suppressing bijuu, why is Kushina not said to be able to control bijuu? Why not Yamato? Why not Jiraiya? All those people could suppress bijuu chakra
2. You say that Mokuton cannot defeat top tier ninjas? That is interesting and makes me wonder if you read the manga. The only Justu we have seen in the manga defeat 5 kages is mokuton kajukai korin. Does Minato or Hiruzen have any such Justu? Also, mokuton sashiki defeated multiple jounin, ANBU ninjas. That Justu would give Hiruzen plenty of trouble given his defense leaves holes in a diamond cage he hides behind
3. Mokuton cannot help against CQC taijutsu? Read about mokuton: daijurin

TOBIRAMA
1. How do you conclude that he used fodder for edo tensei?
2. Where did you get that his space-time ninjutsu was not fast activating? If you are basing that on the comparison to kamui, your conclusion is illogical. Not being faster than the fastest activating does not make it slow. Do you consider hi raisin to be considered slow activating?

HIRUZEN
1. Hiruzen did not "handle" the Senju brothers, they toyed with him
2. He never said that if he was younger he would not use a suicidal Justu. Where the heck did you get that? He said if he was 10 years younger he would have enough chakra to seal Orochimaru's soul


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## Ricky Sen (Dec 9, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> So basically, the only way any other hokage could defeat Hashirama is if they used a suicide jutsu that, once activated, is impossible to escape from.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, at least you have the courage to admit that.



Can't be escaped? Orochimaru escaped from it the very first time that it was used in the manga. 

Death God is a really situational jutsu imo


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 9, 2012)

Orochimaru escaped from the 3rd's lame ass version of it. With Minato's version, he doesn't need to approach and grab you at all. Instead an invisible arm shoots out of his chest from a hundred feet away and yanks your soul out of your body: Sorry but that's unstoppable. You can't even see it until it's too late. There's absolutely nothing situational about that.

In any case, I have to put Hashirama first. There's just nobody in the manga who can hang with his chakra level and destructive haxed out abilities. Minato would be next. His jutsu is too versatile for any other Kage.


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## MS81 (Dec 9, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I think Hashirama is the strongest, but I'm going to wait till we see more from Prime Hiruzen to be 100% sure.


 I agree!!!


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 9, 2012)

Hashirama is on a seperate tier than the rest.

Its like

Hashirama >>>>>>> Minato >>> Hiruzen > Tsunade




CyberianGinseng said:


> Orochimaru escaped from the 3rd's lame ass version of it. With Minato's version, he doesn't need to approach and grab you at all. Instead an invisible arm shoots out of his chest from a hundred feet away and yanks your soul out of your body: Sorry but that's unstoppable. You can't even see it until it's too late. There's absolutely nothing situational about that.



unless ofc you have shield of Yata, which block spiritual attacks as well


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## PopoTime (Dec 9, 2012)

Minato = Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama > Tobirama = Tsunade > LolDanzo


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## sladky (Dec 9, 2012)

C'mon, if it comes to PvP fights, Minato is still the boss. I don't remember when he even got scratched.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 9, 2012)

sladky said:


> C'mon, if it comes to PvP fights, Minato is still the boss. I don't remember when he even got scratched.



You seem to forget that Minato would have a hard time defeating any of the other kages as well. Hashirama and Tsunade can regenerate. Tobirama has space-time ninjutsu as well and unlike Tobi is much more experienced.


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## sladky (Dec 9, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Hashirama and Tsunade can regenerate


Not a problem, if you manage to deal a death blow to it, aiming right to the heart. Doesn't look like a challenge at such speed.


> Tobirama has space-time ninjutsu as well and unlike Tobi is much more experienced.


I haven't seen his stn yet. So it's hard to make any conclusions.


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Dec 9, 2012)

One thing we can all agree...everyone else>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tsunade


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## Closet Pervert (Dec 9, 2012)

There hasn't been that much new from Prime Hiruzen and Minato, so we still don't know which one of those two was the strongest Hokage.





HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> One thing we can all agree...everyone else>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tsunade


Yeah at least there's that.


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## slickcat (Dec 9, 2012)

going with minato, hes batman. he can be defeated but has a back up plan guaranteed to take you out or stalemate


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## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> HASHIRAMA
> 1. If Hashirama bijuu control = suppressing bijuu, why is Kushina not said to be able to control bijuu? Why not Yamato? Why not Jiraiya? All those people could suppress bijuu chakra



because kushina's chains work on only the kyuubi due to being the jinchuriki. her chakras are special for jinchuriki.

yamato is shit, he can only suppress so far because his mokuton levels aren't on parallel with hashirama. he has trouble stopping a immature kyuubi ( 4 tails?). tailed beasts would destroy him

jiraiya... no. he uses a sealing tag. not really his own ability. anyone can do that

Hashirama's ability is to suppress bijuu and that is all. when has hashirama (or mokuton) shown to control bijuu in any other way? never. It's wood used to bind in other words used to make bijuu immobile. He can't control bijuu's like madara, not only is there nothing  to support it but it wouldn't really suit someone like hashirama to force bijuu's to do his will. that's a sharingan ability (which represents evil) not something that would exactly suit someone like hashirama/mokuton


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## Zoan Marco (Dec 9, 2012)

As long as retards exist the debate will never end.


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## αce (Dec 9, 2012)

Senjuclan is right, T-bag. Supression isn't the same as control. Hashirama was mentioned as one of only two people capable of controlling bijuu's along with Madara. Yagura and Bee were included because they managed to become perfect Jinchuuriki. If supression is what was meant by Danzo when he said that, he would have included Kushina, Yamato and Mito in that conversation.

It was explicitly stated that Hashirama had the ability to control bijuu's, not just supress them. Although why is this a surprise? The sharingan can do the exact same thing. They are two sides of the same coin. Senju and Uchiha.


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## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2012)

2 sides of the same coin, but do different shit. 

uchiha  = evil = control wills by force
senju = good = suppress evil 

also,

"only our eyes can control the nine tails" - "madara" obito. 

Hashirama's wood control is misinterpreted, his power is to render bijuu useless like madara and yamato have shown with _mokuton_. I don't see how you can control bijuu's any other way with wood, can you?


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 9, 2012)

The Shiki Fujin > Hashirama, and it's a proven fact at this point. The First Hokage may have been the most genetically gifted of all Hokage, and perhaps the one with the most raw power, but he wasn't the clear cut strongest of them all. How many times must it be proven that simply having special abilities or bloodline limit abilities doesn't guarantee you victory of any sort?


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## shintebukuro (Dec 9, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> The Shiki Fujin > Hashirama, and it's a proven fact at this point. The First Hokage may have been the most genetically gifted of all Hokage, and perhaps the one with the most raw power, but he wasn't the clear cut strongest of them all. How many times must it be proven that simply having special abilities or bloodline limit abilities doesn't guarantee you victory of any sort?



I don't think anyone is really considering Shiki Fuujin as part of the equation. It's a suicide jutsu that is used to force a tie when the user has otherwise been cornered. 

It's not much different than a DBZ character destroying the planet if they cannot win a fight. Or self-destructing.


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## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 9, 2012)

MangaR said:


> *Hashirama* was know for his bijuu control(the ability itself is useless against shinobi) and enormous raw power. I was laughing at mokuton back then and i can't stop doing it right now. It is useless against most of top tier shinobies. Sure it can help you make some trees that genins can freely use to jump around. It can be destroyed or evade by any S class shinobi. It can't help you in close range if your fighting taijutsu expert as well. We saw alot of those techs from Madara and even some through Obito its not even close to give Minato or Hiruzen any kind of trouble. Madara constantly wanks him because Hashi was his rival back then. And even though he hates the guy after all those years fighting him he gain respect for his enemy. If someone thinks Madara right now would have any trouble facing Hashirama they are delusional.


lol  I'm sure there was one or two high-class ninja during the _*Shinobi World Wars*_ where his powers were considered a *fairy tale* and he was _feared_ by *all*.


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## Blaze Release (Dec 9, 2012)

Strongest hokage is between Hiruzen and Hashirama that is canon. The reason id still stick to Hiruzen being the strongest hokage is firstly based on what iruka and kabuto said.

When people downgrade Hiruzen's hype they put it down because they say its Iruka talking or Irkua was brown nosing Hiruzne. However Iruka NEVER spoke in 1st person. He said "The third was said to be the strongest of all". That isn't his opinion if you understand the English language, but rather he is telling the readers what people thought of Hiruzen.

Then there is Kabuto's statement.

Iv'e already argued this many times so ill stop. Ill end by saying Hiruzen's hype was intentionally given by kishi and in order to give this hype feat he was intentionally pitted agains't the former kages and he overcame them. Yes both parties had limitations however Hiruzen's limitations were greater.

When people argu hashirama's strength then only argue his large scale technique and incredible power/abilities, however that isnt what makes him the strongest hokage


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## Senjuclan (Dec 9, 2012)

sladky said:


> Not a problem, if you manage to deal a death blow to it, aiming right to the heart. Doesn't look like a challenge at such speed.
> .



 Madara dealt a death blow to Tsunade and she regenerated. He cut her half and she lived. Minato ain't git shit on that



T-Bag said:


> because kushina's chains work on only the kyuubi due to being the jinchuriki. her chakras are special for jinchuriki.
> 
> yamato is shit, he can only suppress so far because his mokuton levels aren't on parallel with hashirama. he has trouble stopping a immature kyuubi ( 4 tails?). tailed beasts would destroy him
> 
> ...



1. Where was it stated that Kushina chains only work in kyuubi? Furthermore, kirabi has only controlled hachibi, yet it counts as bijuu control
2. 4 tailed kyuubi is stronger than some bijuu, the lower tailed one. Yamato should be able to deal with Shukaku for example. Plus, Madara can only control for a while, yet you don't count that against him
3. It does not matter how Jiraiya suppress a bijuu chakra, it only matters that he does. If you count it as controlling a bijuu, then anyone with Jiraiya's fuuinjutsu can control bijuu according to you
4. If your argument is that mokuton has never been shown to cause bijuu to do its bidding, therefore it cannot, that is a weak argument. Only Kakashi and Sasuke have shown the ability to copy Justus. Should we conclude that it is a unique ability of their sharingan? That is pretty much what you are saying. 
5. I don't see anything that says that Hashirama, because of his convictions could not use bijuu. Naruto has the same philosophy and yet he uses the kyuubi 



T-Bag said:


> 2 sides of the same coin, but do different shit.
> 
> uchiha  = evil = control wills by force
> senju = good = suppress evil
> ...



1. Funny how kyuubi did not see a difference between Madara and Hashirama. He said only Kirabi was different. To him even Hashirama saw bijuu only as a source of power
2. Only our eyes can control the kyuubi? When the hell did Naruto get a sharingan because be can control kyuubi just fine
3. Finally, think abut it. If Hashirama did not use bijuu, how the hell did distributing them to other villages balance power? If I am the only person in the world to own guns and yet do not have bullets and therefore cannot use my guns, no one would count them as part of my power. They are meaningless. They can't be used. Why did the other villages fear Konoha power with bijuu under their control if bijuu were never used?


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## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2012)

before I start answering your questions I wana make sure I'm clear how you view hashirama's control over bijuus. How do you think he controls bijuu? in what way?


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## Blaze Release (Dec 9, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> before I start answering your questions I wana make sure I'm clear how you view hashirama's control over bijuus. How do you think he controls bijuu? in what way?



The ability to suppress bijuu power falls under the definition of control. 
If you've noticed so far all the abilities that hashirama supposedly had which hints his control of the bijuu, fall in the suppression category. Control is to influence

Think people believe he could do what a ms user can do, however from what we have seen that isn't his version of control

charged a bijuudama right next to it.

charged a bijuudama right next to it.


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## Default (Dec 9, 2012)

Tobirama solos.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 9, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> I don't think anyone is really considering Shiki Fuujin as part of the equation. It's a suicide jutsu that is used to force a tie when the user has otherwise been cornered.
> 
> It's not much different than a DBZ character destroying the planet if they cannot win a fight. Or self-destructing.



That's true, I understand that, but it should definitely be factored in when Minato with the other abilities he has showcased, can probably kill just about any shinobi with it. In my honest opinion, it's probably the best jutsu in this entire manga. If there is somehow a way for somebody to master that jutsu in a way where they wouldn't die from it's use, that ninja would be one of the most powerful in history. It's precisely why I keep thinking there's a very good chance it ends up being "that jutsu," and combined with Naruto's abilities he may be able overcome its greatest weakness.

Also, some seem to be of this belief that Hashirama controls bijuu in a way that makes them do what he wants them to. He doesn't possess that kind of control and it has never been hinted that he does. What he possesses is an innate ability to suppress their power and this power allowed him to, at one point, have multiple bijuu under his control, possibly sealed away in some fashion. He doesn't control bijuu in the same way that Madara does, or that we've seen Rinnegan users successfully do. Their abilities, while sharing certain basic similarities, are still very much different.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 9, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> before I start answering your questions I wana make sure I'm clear how you view hashirama's control over bijuus. How do you think he controls bijuu? in what way?



To control bijuu is to use them to do one's bidding. How one does it does not matter.




SageEnergyMode said:


> Also, some seem to be of this belief that Hashirama controls bijuu in a way that makes them do what he wants them to. He doesn't possess that kind of control and it has never been hinted that he does. What he possesses is an innate ability to suppress their power and this power allowed him to, at one point, have multiple bijuu under his control, possibly sealed away in some fashion. He doesn't control bijuu in the same way that Madara does, or that we've seen Rinnegan users successfully do. Their abilities, while sharing certain basic similarities, are still very much different.



Since I am sure you are talking about me, let me ask you a simple question. You say that Hashirama had bijuu sealed away, then he concluded that in order to balance the military power of the villages, he would distribute bijuu amongst them in order to achieve peace. How the heck does that make sense? If bijuu are sealed away, how can distributing them balance power?


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 9, 2012)

What's funny is that we are supposed to believe that old man Hiruzen is stronger than a guy who can blitz Sharingan users and a guy who can fly around and disintegrate mountains.


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## HoriMaori (Dec 9, 2012)

Senju Hashirama ADED


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## jimbob631 (Dec 9, 2012)

The author's statement>Fanboy statement.  Hiruzen is the strongest period.  Until Kishi says otherwise its manga canon.


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## Anju Ratti (Dec 9, 2012)

Hashirama is the stongest


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## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2012)

Blaze Release said:


> The ability to suppress bijuu power falls under the definition of control.
> If you've noticed so far all the abilities that hashirama supposedly had which hints his control of the bijuu, fall in the suppression category. Control is to influence
> 
> Think people believe he could do what a ms user can do, however from what we have seen that isn't his version of control
> ...



exactly. 

but they seem to think he can control bijuu's similar to madara. control is a broad word, there are several different meaning of control


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## Senjuclan (Dec 9, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> exactly.
> 
> but they seem to think he can control bijuu's similar to madara. control is a broad word, there are several different meaning of control



What happened to you answering my questions if I answered yours


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## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2012)

im feeling lazy. and chances are i'd be wasting my time


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## Senjuclan (Dec 9, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> im feeling lazy. and chances are i'd be wasting my time



LOL. Sure brah


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## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2012)

son u a die hard hashirama fanboy. i got no chance. i lose by default


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 9, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hashirama is on a seperate tier than the rest.
> 
> Its like
> 
> ...


Prove:

1) Yata Mirror blocks spiritual attacks. Certainly didn't block Kabuto's genjutsu.

2) Yata wielder can even see the death god in time to block him.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 9, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> son u a die hard hashirama fanboy. i got no chance. i lose by default



Brah, you know you're lying. I am one of the most reasonable people on the board. I am not a fanboy. I defend Madara and Minato as much as I do Hashirama. You know this.


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## Bonly (Dec 9, 2012)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Prove:
> 
> 1) Yata Mirror blocks spiritual attacks. *Certainly didn't block Kabuto's genjutsu.*
> 
> 2) Yata wielder can even see the death god in time to block him.



Of course it didn't since he didn't pull out the Yata Mirror during the Kabuto fight. Don't really see the point in bringing this up but ok.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 9, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> To control bijuu is to use them to do one's bidding. How one does it does not matter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think that question even makes sense... He most likely had a way to store or impression the numerous bijuu whose powers he had suppressed using his own. It's pretty common sense. He likely had a way to help with the transfer of the bijuu to the other villages. It's not like he would have placed each one in a gigantic, wooden Lincoln Navigator, after all.

Even though Obito mixed in a few lies here and there, I believe the part where he said that Hashirama once held multiple bijuu under his control once upon a time and distributed them among the villages. We've seen a panel where Hashirama has some absolutely massive sealing scrolls. It's possibly that he kept bijuu inside those things. Of course Hashirama would've made it so that the bijuu could be safely transferred to the other villages in a way that they would, at the very least, be able to utilize them as nuclear deterrents of sorts. Sealed away, sure, but sealed in such a way that the other villages possessed the means to unseal and utilize them inside hosts.

Getting back to the main point -- it matters not that Minato's most powerful jutsu is one in which he gives up his life. The fact still remains that he could defeat Hashirama and just about any other ninja we know of using the technique in conjunction with the abilities he has showcased, particularly Hiraishin. Also, Obito should at least serve as a warning to anybody who thinks that a high level ninja doesn't possess many more jutsu than what they might initially reveal in any given situation. Just as Obito could have used other jutsu on that night, so too could have Minato. The more we learn about any ninja, the more we learn just how powerful they truly were.

If people think that Minato would somehow be any different, then folks simply just aren't being very realistic.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 9, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> I don't think that question even makes sense... He most likely had a way to store or impression the numerous bijuu whose powers he had suppressed using his own. It's pretty common sense. He likely had a way to help with the transfer of the bijuu to the other villages. It's not like he would have placed each one in a gigantic, wooden Lincoln Navigator, after all.
> 
> Even though Obito mixed in a few lies here and there, I believe the part where he said that Hashirama once held multiple bijuu under his control once upon a time and distributed them among the villages. We've seen a panel where Hashirama has some absolutely massive sealing scrolls. It's possibly that he kept bijuu inside those things. Of course Hashirama would've made it so that the bijuu could be safely transferred to the other villages in a way that they would, at the very least, be able to utilize them as nuclear deterrents of sorts. Sealed away, sure, but sealed in such a way that the other villages possessed the means to unseal and utilize them inside hosts.



Do you know your answer ain't got shit to do with my question, right? 

Question is why bijuu that are not used can be considered to tip the balance of power in favor of Konoha. All that shit about how he stored bijuu goes without saying


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## sladky (Dec 10, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Madara dealt a death blow to Tsunade and she regenerated. He cut her half and she lived. Minato ain't git shit on that


Kabuto damaged Naruto's heart and regeneration stopped. Minato can do the same or similar thing.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 10, 2012)

sladky said:


> Kabuto damaged Naruto's heart and regeneration stopped. Minato can do the same or similar thing.



Minato is not Kabuto and Part I Naruto is not Tsunade or Hashirama


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

You still don't seem to get it. He had them, as in captured them, and then likely sealed them away in some fashion because of how dangerous they were. *He didn't capture them to viciously use them against his enemies. Hashirama was not that kind of ninja AT ALL.*

He likely didn't seal them away in a fashion similar to what someone would do by putting them into jinchuuruki, he likely had something of an equivalent to how the sand kept Shukaku until they were ready to seal him into a new host. This is a science that is well documented in this manga. Villages have ways to store bijuu until they are ready to actually do something with them, and they don't often do so while that beast is busy rampaging around. 

They have numerous ways to, at least temporarily, seal them in pots (Cloud Village) or scrolls, what have you. Hashirama's method was most likely to use scrolls. We even have panels of him possessing multiple massive scrolls behind him. What could possibly be in those scrolls other than the bijuu?

Hashirama wasn't the power hungry type that went around using bijuu against his enemies and against villages. You're imaginging a version of Hashirama that simply DOES NOT exist. *The Hashirama you seem to be imaginging is one that possesses Hashirama's power, but has Madara's ideology. Hashirama defended his comrades and defeated his opponents using his own power, he didn't go around using bijuu against people, and this manga in no way suggests that he ever did such a thing. *

Even when he had determined that the Kyuubi was to be sealed away, he didn't have Mito do so in order to use the Kyuubi as some weapon. He did it to keep something so dangerous from being free and possibly becoming the pawn of some dangerous individual.


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## sladky (Dec 10, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Minato is not Kabuto and Part I Naruto is not Tsunade or Hashirama


And where the difference lies? You damage the heart, chakra flow stops, so enemy can't regenerate by himself. What makes Naruto or Kabuto so unique?


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

Also, it's fiction, pure fiction, that Hashirama had a similar power to Tsunade. What Hashirama possessed was the ability to perform high level medical ninjutsu to heal his wounds without needing to perform seals. However, we do not, and I repeat, we do not have any proof whatsoever that Hashirama could sustain the type of punishment that Tsunade does and just keep healing from it over and over and over in the fashion that Tsunade can.

Hashirama's healing ability was impressive, most impressive, but i think Tsunade's higher level mitotic regeneration goes much beyond what Hashirama was capable of, but some people are likely never to admit that much. Also, even if he did possess Tsunade's level of medical ninjutsu, it in no way protects him from the Shiki Fujin. Hashirama, at the very least, is an equal to Minato because Minato can certainly kill him using the Shiki Fujin in conjunction with Hiraishin.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 10, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> You still don't seem to get it. He had them, as in captured them, and then likely sealed them away in some fashion because of how dangerous they were. *He didn't capture them to viciously use them against his enemies. Hashirama was not that kind of ninja AT ALL.*
> 
> He likely didn't seal them away in a fashion similar to what someone would do by putting them into jinchuuruki, he likely had something of an equivalent to how the sand kept Shukaku until they were ready to seal him into a new host. This is a science that is well documented in this manga. Villages have ways to store bijuu until they are ready to actually do something with them, and they don't often do so while that beast is busy rampaging around.
> 
> ...



In other words, you can't answer the question. All the drivel you repeat is obvious as shit or unsubstantiated conjecture. You try to obfuscate the obvious by bloviating 



sladky said:


> And where the difference lies? You damage the heart, chakra flow stops, so enemy can't regenerate by himself. What makes Naruto or Kabuto so unique?



You can't compare Minato to Kabuto. Minato cannot do everything Kabuto can and Naruto Justu is different from Tsunade and Hashirama's, hence comparing them is meaningless


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## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 10, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> Also, it's fiction, pure fiction, that Hashirama had a similar power to Tsunade. What Hashirama possessed was the ability to perform high level medical ninjutsu to heal his wounds without needing to perform seals. However, we do not, and I repeat, we do not have any proof whatsoever that Hashirama could sustain the type of punishment that Tsunade does and just keep healing from it over and over and over in the fashion that Tsunade can.
> 
> Hashirama's healing ability was impressive, most impressive, but i think Tsunade's higher level mitotic regeneration goes much beyond what Hashirama was capable of, but some people are likely never to admit that much. Also, even if he did possess Tsunade's level of medical ninjutsu, it in no way protects him from the Shiki Fujin. Hashirama, at the very least, is an equal to Minato because Minato can certainly kill him using the Shiki Fujin in conjunction with Hiraishin.


It is interesting that you never mention Madara's name. He confirmed a while ago Hashirama's superior healing abilities. Tsunade doesn't hope to compare. You have nothing to disprove that.

As for Shiki Fuujin, this kind of self-destruct Jutsu is a broken argument. We can't really consider it as much as we can't consider Deidara's C0 or Danzou's seals. A Jutsu that kills you isn't really that useful if you want to win.

However, even if we take Shiki Fuujin into account, you are severely underestimating Hashirama if you think he couldn't avoid it. For example, he may use Mokuton Bunshin and deceive Minato while also manipulating the battlefied; Minato's tags are then rendered useless, and he gets crushed like a bug.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

Senjuclan, you fail to engage in the discussion because you know you have nothing to say. Not only did I answer your shitty question which I'm sure even you don't understand how stupid and ill conceived it was, I also destroyed your entire logic.

You are imaginging a version of Hashirama that this manga has never suggested even exists. At no point has Hashirama ever fought using bijuu under his command in a way similar to what we know Madara is capable of, or in the way that we've seen Obito do in this fight. The only way your argument is even close to true is unless at some point during his fight against Madara, the Kyuubi, once Hashirama got it under control with his power, somehow agreed to assist him against Madara.

The only basis by which Hashirama's healing abilities were suggested to be superior to Tsunade's was that he could heal without having to perform seals. Tsunade after using her jutsu essentially matched that same feat, something to which Madara confirmed.

On that basis alone Tsunade was already Hashirama's equal in the area of medical ninjutsu.

However, his confirmation of her healing herself without performing seals the way Hashirama used to, is in no way explicit confirmation that Hashirama's healing abilties worked on an equally advanced level, essentially making him immortal for the duration that the technique is active. We know Hashirama possessed amazing healing abilities, amazing healing abilities that he could use without performing seals. However, we have no information suggesting those healing abilities were anywhere near as extreme as what we've seen on display from Tsunade, and to suggest otherwise is, again, fiction.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> It is interesting that you never mention Madara's name. He confirmed a while ago Hashirama's superior healing abilities. Tsunade doesn't hope to compare. You have nothing to disprove that.
> 
> As for Shiki Fuujin, this kind of self-destruct Jutsu is a broken argument. We can't really consider it as much as we can't consider Deidara's C0 or Danzou's seals. A Jutsu that kills you isn't really that useful if you want to win.
> 
> However, even if we take Shiki Fuujin into account, you are severely underestimating Hashirama if you think he couldn't avoid it. For example, he may use Mokuton Bunshin and deceive Minato while also manipulating the battlefied; Minato's tags are then rendered useless, and he gets crushed like a bug.



So, a jutsu powerful enough to defeat and kill Hashirama, one he can't even see coming from the fastest ninja ever, isn't valid to a discussion? Come on, you guys aren't even trying to be serious. The shiki fujin was powerful enough to essentially come close to half way killing the Kyuubi.


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## CrimsonRex (Dec 10, 2012)

Mickie said:


> Minato> Prime Hiruzen>Hashirama>Tobirama>Tsunade



This.
"You're too slow." - Minato


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## raizen28 (Dec 10, 2012)

Minato Seals Hashirama like Hiruzen did except His Clones will be more
Fuck I forgot someone finish this


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## Rosi (Dec 10, 2012)

This thread pretty much shows how hard Kishi shat on his own ideas about "next generations being stronger than the previous ones". Now we have two old farts hyped up to be gods of Naruniverse, stronger than anyone, when by all logic Minato should be considered the strongest one, with Naruto overcoming him at the end of manga as part of the newer generation.


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## raizen28 (Dec 10, 2012)

Rosi said:


> This thread pretty much shows how hard Kishi shat on his own ideas about "next generations being stronger than the previous ones". Now we have two old farts hyped up to be gods of Naruniverse, stronger than anyone, when by all logic Minato should be considered the strongest one, with Naruto overcoming him at the end of manga as part of the newer generation.


Give this man the best goddamn cookie in the jar


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## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 10, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> So, a jutsu powerful enough to defeat and kill Hashirama, one he can't even see coming from the fastest ninja ever, isn't valid to a discussion? Come on, you guys aren't even trying to be serious. The shiki fujin was powerful enough to essentially come close to half way killing the Kyuubi.


If speed were everything, A and Guy would solo the world, but sadly, the other ninja are not blow up dolls and they have their own speed as well (see Deidara vs. Team Guy) and powerful Jutsu.

Minato needs to tag his opponent and the area before he can do anything anyway, which, like I said, makes a man that can manipulate the entire battlefield and create Mokuton Bunshin a most difficult opponent for him.

Minato sacrifices his life to seal half the Kyuubi's chakra.
Hashirama pets the Kyuubi like a puppy without losing a finger.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> If speed were everything, A and Guy would solo the world, but sadly, the other ninja are not blow up dolls and they have their own speed as well (see Deidara vs. Team Guy) and powerful Jutsu.
> 
> Minato needs to tag his opponent and the area before he can do anything anyway, which, like I said, makes a man that can manipulate the entire battlefield a most difficult opponent for him.
> 
> ...



None of those two are as fast nor as skilled as Minato is. Minato did not seal HALF the Kyuubi, he sealed 100% of it, he just chose to seal each half in different ways. 50% using Shiki Fujin, and the other half using the 8 Trigrams.

None of Deidara's jutsu can be compared with Minato's Shiki Fujin. Are we forgetting that Minato made even A look like a complete and utter joke? This is the same Minato that looked like he easily had the upperhand against both A and Killer Bee. First of all, Hiruzen beat Hashirama and his brother at the same time. So please stop telling me about what Hashirama can or can't do. Hiruzen surpassed both Hashirama and Tobirama, and he defeated the both of them using the Fourth Hokage's strongest jutsu.


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## raizen28 (Dec 10, 2012)

Have you seen Minato's Shunshin?

Put Minato in the Exact situation of Hiruzen vs. Oro and Senju Bros.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

People are so engufled in all the hype around Hashirama that they can't even bring themselves to contemplate that the Third and Fourth Hokages were no jokes.

Suicide jutsu or not, if Minato with his skillset can takeout Madara or Hashirama with his Shiki Fujin technique, then he is as strong as they are, even if he kills himself doing it. People always try to escape the reality of facing Minato by starting off immediately by saying, "Well, you can't count Shiki Fujin, because Minato kills himself to use that, so it doesn't count." 

To try and compare Minato to the likes of Gai or Deidara is simply a joke. Minato is a shinobi of the highest possible caliber, and everything that Kishimoto has shown us in this manga indicates that Kakashi, as skilled and as strong as he is, is just not in the same league as the Fourth Hokage. Minato is a shinobi up there with the likes of Madara/Hashirama. He didn't just beat Obito, for example, he made Obito look like he wasn't even in the same league as himself come the end. Minato flat out schooled him, and it's just so appropriate now that he turned out to be Minato's student, because he was simply out of his depth.

I mean, how many times must Kishi show us and tell us that Minato was an absolute monster? Killer Bee trembles at the mere mention of the dude's name! People have forgotten one of the earliest things that Kishimoto established in this war before Naruto got involved. He's simply taking the place of the savior, Minato, that decided to leave things in Naruto's hand. It's greatly implied that Minato, were he alive, would be able to somehow save the Shinobi world from the current threat.


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## raizen28 (Dec 10, 2012)

Like Minato cant Shiki Fujin a Clone like Hiruzen did


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## Looniie (Dec 10, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> Only thing this says to me is that Hashirama most likely had the most raw, destructive power of all the kage, and was the biggest powerhouse in terms of likely chakra capacity, but that alone doesn't qualify someone as the strongest.
> 
> I will accept though that he is the strongest Hokage in those regards, but *those aren't the only things that decide strength.* I still believe that Minato was the greatest, most impressive ninja of all the Hokage to date.



I also think this way, raw power is all cool and stuff but overall superior skills always will be > then just raw power, that's why  Minato > Hashirama


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## Rios (Dec 10, 2012)

How do you know how skillful Hashirama was exactly? Have you seen him fight other than being an incomplete edo puppet?


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## Looniie (Dec 10, 2012)

I don't know that of course, but am basing my opinion on the information we have been given so far and judging by it Hashirama wasn't known for his brilliant strategies, wide variety of skills or anything like that but for his raw power..


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## Rios (Dec 10, 2012)

blah blah blah I conjure up some imaginary advantage to give my fave an edge, its totally not an opinion, anyone who reads the manga would come to the same conclusion blah blah blah


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 10, 2012)

Looniie said:


> I don't know that of course, but am basing my opinion on the information we have been given so far and judging by it Hashirama wasn't known for his brilliant strategies, *wide variety of skills* or anything like that but for his raw power..



Based on Madara's copy-pasta style and his Part 1 cameo, we have already seen more jutsus of Hashirama's than we have of Tobirama's and Minato's combined.


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## Saturnine (Dec 10, 2012)

Minato? Oh come on, people. What can he do to you? Teleport behind you and slash you with a kunai? Hit you with a Rasengan? It may be unavoidable for most, but people tank things like that, mind you


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## Orochibuto (Dec 10, 2012)

Hamaru said:


> When feats are put side by side, Shodai is clearly the strongest Hokage.



The problem with Shodai and the reason that while I accpet he MAY be the strongest I wont take it as such until the manga ends, its outright confirmed by a character or shown by feats is that he has no clear feats.

All of Hashirama's thing is statements and I find amusing how people reading the manga can be swayed to state something as a fact based on nothing but statements. I guess if the Uzumaki Clan leader had a statement saying that he defeated the Juubi then everyone would be saying he > Madara and Hashirama despite beign just a statement.

Dont get me wrong we can have feats from stated accounts, but these feats need a examination and a level of certainty of near fact, for example we know RS is the strongest guy because he has the feat of making the moon out of a Chibaku Tensei on his deathbe and then creating the 9 Bijuus again on his deathbed. But here we had panels, we know its true and are concrete feats.

With Hashirama we are found with the same issue that we find with the hypothetical Uzumaki Clan Leader scenario I provided, his feats are nothing but statements since they are no concrete.

We just know he defeated EMS Madara and Kyuubi and thats it, that is all we have. Its an entire fight and we know in a fight a lot of variables can occur, this is not a concrete feat, because we dont know how he did it we just know he "somehow" defeated EMS Madara and Kyuubi, we dont know if he used Bijuu control to make Kyuubi a non factor, we dont know if he really fought it, we dont know a lot of things, we only know he "somehow" won the fight. We dont know if Hashirama had the same AOE output as the Perfect Susanoo or he used some chakra drain to cancel it.

Its not a concrete feat, its not as RS creating the moon which give us a direct glimpse of his power level. All the power relation we have about Hashiarama are statements and hype.

The situation is similar as I said as in 10 chapters continiously it was said the Uzumaki Leader defeated Juubi, you can bet that some naive people would start to say "Uzumaki Clan Leader > Current Madara" just because of statements without feats. Not taking in counts that winning a fight is a very very vague feat without the panel feats to see how it went.


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 10, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> Its over then, Kishi confirmed it, Minato > Hashirama.



Wut.

Seriously it's pretty damn clear that Kishi is setting it up so that Hashirama is Naruto's next benchmark. It's been said by multiple people that the only person who can even touch him is Hashirama, and now Naruto has to fight him.

The Minato wank on these forums is pathetic.

When Naruto's final benchmark becomes the RS, people are still going to say that Minato is superior.


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## Saturnine (Dec 10, 2012)

There was a great thread a while ago about the two main types of top tier shinobi, the raw power type and the precision type. The names are pretty self-explanatory, the Raw Power type has amazing strength, speed, stamina and area of effect techniques, while the Precision Type has amazing speed, intelligence, foresight, tactical prowess and haxed instakill jutsus, but no Bijuu-level raw power.

Examples of the Raw Power type would be: Hashirama, Madara, Kisame, Naruto
While the Precision type would include: Minato, Kakashi, Obito, Itachi

Now one should take notice that shinobi like Sasuke and Hiruzen could be viewed as a combination of these types - at least EMS Sasuke with his Susanoo's increased damage dealing potential.

As for Hokages, Minato is definitely the best Precision type Hokage (or Kage for that matter), while Hashirama is by far the best Raw Power type. Hiruzen possesses both of these qualities, being able to use large jutsus as well as learn Minato's own, like the Shiki Fujin. Therefore it's hard to compare the three of them. Pitting them against each other would be the only way to find out how one does against the others. And even if one defeated one or both of the others, he could have done worse than the one he beat against other shinobi. That's the way of the Naruverse.



Orochibuto said:


> All of Hashirama's thing is statements and I find amusing how people reading the manga can be swayed to state something as a fact based on nothing but statements.



Oh, and what is 90% of Minato's hype based on? Oh wait, it's the statements of other characters!


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## Orochibuto (Dec 10, 2012)

Saturnine said:


> Oh, and what is 90% of Minato's hype based on? Oh wait, it's the statements of other characters!



Where did I said Minato was free from this?


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## Orochibuto (Dec 10, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Wut.
> 
> Seriously it's pretty damn clear that Kishi is setting it up so that Hashirama is Naruto's next benchmark. It's been *said *by multiple people that the only person who can even touch him is Hashirama, and now Naruto has to fight him.
> 
> ...



About the comment you quoted please ignore it, I made it based on the assumption said interview was true, if it was then indeed Minato would be > Hashirama, but seeing it isnt I recant it.

About Hashirama himself:

Pika, when we got more than fucking statements I will gladly agree with your opinion.

See the bolded part? This is the problem I have with Hashirama. When we get the feats then I will agree, but as long as statements remain the primary source of Hashirama's meassure so will my skepticism of him.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Dec 10, 2012)

Minato>your favorite Hokage, Kage and Shinobi


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## Rios (Dec 10, 2012)

Thats fair. A flashback with Hashirama fighting could answer this once and for all. I'd gladly see him smashing Minato like the bug he is on the wall.


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## Cromer (Dec 10, 2012)

This debate is a never ending maze


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## Orochibuto (Dec 10, 2012)

Rios said:


> Thats fair. A flashback with Hashirama fighting could answer this once and for all. I'd gladly see him smashing Minato like the bug he is on the wall.



This is all I am asking, feats no statements.


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## Saturnine (Dec 10, 2012)

Can't rep you, Rios


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 10, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> About the comment you quoted please ignore it, I made it based on the assumption said interview was true, if it was then indeed Minato would be > Hashirama, but seeing it isnt I recant it.
> 
> About Hashirama himself:
> 
> ...



You yourself admitted a post ago that most of Minato's hype is just character statements too, yet you jump to the conclusion that Minato is superior. Why?

Off-panel feats are still feats. What did Hashirama do at VotE? Dominate the Kyuubi and PS-enabled Madara. What did Minato do? Incapacitate a 14-year-old for a second and die putting the Kyuubi down. 

Now going to sit back and wait for the flood of people who will cry about how it's 100% confirmed that Mito was there and was actually useful, and significantly more useful than Kushina, therefore Minato is still > Hashirama.


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> You yourself admitted a post ago that most of Minato's hype is just character statements too, yet you jump to the conclusion that Minato is superior. Why?
> 
> Off-panel feats are still feats. What did Hashirama do at VotE? Dominate the Kyuubi and PS-enabled Madara. What did Minato do? Incapacitate a 14-year-old for a second and die putting the Kyuubi down.
> 
> Now going to sit back and wait for the flood of people who will cry about how it's 100% confirmed that Mito was there and was actually useful, and significantly more useful than Kushina, therefore Minato is still > Hashirama.



Is this away to judge? Seriously? 
Oh let me use it, please! 

1- What Minato did against Obito & Kurama > Hiruzen (around 57)
So, Minato > Hiruzen 

Hiruzen (69) > Hashi & Tobirama (and actually he & Anko said if Minato was there ...)

and it said that if he were 10 year younger > Oro
so it's like this Minato > Hiruzen (57) > Hiruzen (59)> Oro + edo brother > Hiruzen (69) > Hashi & Tobirama at the same time?

Do you see? By this logic Minato and the 3rd faaaaaaaaaaaar away to
make Hashi even compare to them. (Of course I mean by this way that are stronger than him be far)

2- The same logic 
Minato ended the Third World War. On the other hand both
Hashi & Tobirama lost their life in other War! 

You see? This logic doesn't work!


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## Morgan (Dec 10, 2012)

Minato>/=Hiruzen>Hashirama, until we see some panel feat evidence that says otherwise, I'm sticking with this.


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## JPongo (Dec 10, 2012)

This debate can't be decided yet due specifically to Hiruzen manhandling his kage mentors with Minato's jutsu.  I repeat, the third had to rely on a jutsu taught to him by a young Minato.  How the heck does that not make Minato godly?

But lolol at Uchiha nuthuggers defiantly defending Hashi coz he beat their numero uno Madara.

Minato > ur fave.


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## Punished Pathos (Dec 10, 2012)

Hiruzen is the strongest. 
He didn't even have to run to be Hokage 
Tobirama made him Hokage and as soon as Hiruzen made it back it the leaf everyone went along with it.
The villages were like "aw Tobirama went off to his death? Oh, ur Hokage now? Fuck yeah."

Danzo: "My butt is hurting  "


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 10, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> Senjuclan, you fail to engage in the discussion because you know you have nothing to say.



That is funny because I have said but one thing. ANSWER MY QUESTION. How is that nothing to say. Funny man



SageEnergyMode said:


> Not only did I answer your shitty question which I'm sure even you don't understand how stupid and ill conceived it was, I also destroyed your entire logic.



1. You did not answer my question. You simply claimed that I don't understand my question. That is an ill conceived argument. When asked a question, an intelligent person answers the question not pretend that the question should not be asked
2. Generally speaking, an intelligent debater destroys the logic of a question by undermining the underpinning logic of said question. What you did my friend is an exercise in bloviation. You talked about how Hashirama could have kept bijuu sealed, which is irrelevant to my question. Also, next time you decide to indulge in ad hominem attacks, at least do it elegantly 



SageEnergyMode said:


> You are imaginging a version of Hashirama that this manga has never suggested even exists. At no point has Hashirama ever fought using bijuu under his command in a way similar to what we know Madara is capable of, or in the way that we've seen Obito do in this fight. The only way your argument is even close to true is unless at some point during his fight against Madara, the Kyuubi, once Hashirama got it under control with his power, somehow agreed to assist him against Madara.



I never once argued this point with you. I only asked you WHY THE HELL DOES IT MAKE SENSE TO DISTRIBUTE BIJUU TO OTHER NATIONS IN ORDER TO BALANCE MILITARY POWERS IF SAID BIJUU WERE NEVER USED IN THE FIRST PLACE. 

Try to stay on this subject



SageEnergyMode said:


> The only basis by which Hashirama's healing abilities were suggested to be superior to Tsunade's was that he could heal without having to perform seals. Tsunade after using her jutsu essentially matched that same feat, something to which Madara confirmed.



Funny I never even compared Hashirama to Tsunade. Why are you bringing up something relevant to my argument with you. Let me help you 

I never once argued this point with you. I only asked you WHY THE HELL DOES IT MAKE SENSE TO DISTRIBUTE BIJUU TO OTHER NATIONS IN ORDER TO BALANCE MILITARY POWERS IF SAID BIJUU WERE NEVER USED IN THE FIRST PLACE. 

Try to stay on this subject



SageEnergyMode said:


> On that basis alone Tsunade was already Hashirama's equal in the area of medical ninjutsu.
> 
> However, his confirmation of her healing herself without performing seals the way Hashirama used to, is in no way explicit confirmation that Hashirama's healing abilties worked on an equally advanced level, essentially making him immortal for the duration that the technique is active. We know Hashirama possessed amazing healing abilities, amazing healing abilities that he could use without performing seals. However, we have no information suggesting those healing abilities were anywhere near as extreme as what we've seen on display from Tsunade, and to suggest otherwise is, again, fiction.



I never once argued this point with you. I only asked you WHY THE HELL DOES IT MAKE SENSE TO DISTRIBUTE BIJUU TO OTHER NATIONS IN ORDER TO BALANCE MILITARY POWERS IF SAID BIJUU WERE NEVER USED IN THE FIRST PLACE. 

Try to stay on this subject


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## Danzio (Dec 10, 2012)

The debate was over before it really began 

All people have to do is simply_ read_ the manga, then they would know the senju bros were already soloed by an elder statesman, who also, coincidentally, happened to be called the strongest Hokage.

Deal with it.


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## Punished Pathos (Dec 10, 2012)

raizen28 said:


> Give this man the best goddamn cookie in the jar



Minato just lacks huge scale jutsus to properly fight Madara and Obito.
Minato has to resort to using S/T to get around those two Uchihas.


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## Liverbird (Dec 10, 2012)

the 2nd hokage was the strongest because fuck you


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Dec 10, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> That is funny because I have said but one thing. ANSWER MY QUESTION. How is that nothing to say. Funny man
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*It's a valid question you ask.* 

His objection is irrelevant because if you look at the political situation in Naruto the other nations will react with hostility to the presence of the bijuu *regardless *of Hashirama's intentions. Kumogakure and Iwagakure simply would not stand for Hashirama having all that power to himself whether or not he intended to use it. They'd end up forcing him to use it to keep them off of his ass. 

Hashirama was going for mutual assured destruction. However, it makes no sense for him to willing distribute the bijuu because that wouldn't bring peacefulness to hostile villages like Kumogakure and simply weakened his position. Any real nation who did this would only create more problems for itself, not less. Far better for him to keep the power in Konoha and demonstrate to the other nations that they have no choice but to accept it. This would of course result in a "cold war arms race."

There's really no known solution to this problem.


----------



## MR T (Dec 10, 2012)

Naruto & Sasuke whould prolly take on prime Madara, if they got to be a lil more mature before fighting him, instead as fighting an elderly man as children.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 10, 2012)

While I believe what's been depicted in the story based on overall feats , hype, statements made in the manga, ect would make us believe that Minato/Hashirama are interchangeable as far as being the strongest Kage, I can't completely buy that for a couple of reasons.

1. VOTE has been hyped as the ultimate battle between 2 shinobi , it was said by Madara that it displayed the pinnacle of shinobi strength, this is the fight in which the 2 main characters are directly compared they fought where their statues  stand, thesis the fight that Naruto/Sasuke have been hyped to have Senju vs Uchiha, Love vs Hate.

2. Hashirama's power is responsible for building Atakuski, Acquiring the Rinnegan, being able to achieve the eye of the moon plan, powering the zetsu army, and the power that everyone had to obtain to achieve their goals, this just makes it seem as if his power were that of a superhuman.

3. Minato based off what we seen is probably closer to Nagato's level based off portrayal, he's stronger than SM Naruto but weaker than the villains in this Arc.


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## Pirao (Dec 10, 2012)

Danzio said:


> The debate was over before it really began
> 
> All people have to do is simply_ read_ the manga, then they would know the senju bros were already soloed by an elder statesman, who also, coincidentally, happened to be called the strongest Hokage.
> 
> Deal with it.



Pretty much. It's funny how chapters that happened so long ago still cause so much butthurt.

Kishi said Hiruzen is the strongest, deal with it.


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## Rios (Dec 10, 2012)

Kishi said Hyuugas are the strongest Konoha clan, deal with it.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 10, 2012)

Rios said:


> Kishi said Hyuugas are the strongest Konoha clan, deal with it.



It's correct actually, I don't know why you used it this way though. 
If you want ti talk about Uchiha & Senju then you are wrong because
when that statement made, there was only Sasuke in the village which obviously not a clan by himself. And There wasn't any Senju at all, even later
it's only Tsunade which is the same case as Sasuke.


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Dec 10, 2012)

No debate whatsoever to begin with.
Minato was called a genius that appeared once every 10 years... so was Orochimaru. And look what happened every time he and Itachi met 


Rios said:


> Kishi said Hyuugas are the strongest Konoha clan, deal with it.


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (Dec 10, 2012)

Minato was thought to be a god by a Kage like Ei who lols at Sharingan. Id say its a tie between him Hashirama and prime Hiruzen. This debate will never be over


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## sladky (Dec 10, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> You can't compare Minato to Kabuto. Minato cannot do everything Kabuto can and Naruto Justu is different from Tsunade and Hashirama's, hence comparing them is meaningless


 It's so~ logical. Sorry, I just can't explain things more clearly for you.

Oh well, doesn't matter coz Itachi solos them all.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Dec 10, 2012)

•Sharingan Squid• said:


> No debate whatsoever to begin with.
> Minato was called a genius that appeared once every 10 years... so was Orochimaru. And look what happened every time he and Itachi met


Minato was also said to be such a genius that there hadn't been one since, and i think also GoaT maybe, and Jiraiya believed him to be the destined child IIRC. Chakra starved, ambushed in the middle of the birth of his only child Minato also beat up the main villain of the series and sealed Kyuubi.

Oh yeah, Itachi was after Minato so i guess that means...


----------



## Frosch (Dec 10, 2012)

Minato soloes


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## ?_Camorra_? (Dec 10, 2012)

Geijutsu said:


> Minato soloes



Indeed young grasshoper, indeed


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## Senjuclan (Dec 10, 2012)

sladky said:


> It's so~ logical. Sorry, I just can't explain things more clearly for you.
> 
> Oh well, doesn't matter coz Itachi solos them all.



1. How is it logical to infer a feats for one character based on the performance of another character? 
2. Itachi solo a hokage?  Itachi loses to a chuunin genjutsu. Compare him to Tayuya instead


----------



## αce (Dec 10, 2012)

This is so sad. It's so obvious Hashirama reigns above everyone else.


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## Olympian (Dec 10, 2012)

Rios said:


> Kishi said Hyuugas are the strongest Konoha clan, deal with it.



Well, Hiashi said it. Hiruzen`s hype came from other characters, thought. 

Conclusion: Hiashi is a damn liar.


----------



## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

SenjuClan, responding to you is a waste of time. You are way too big of a fanboy to have a decent discussion with. You continue to believe Hashirama had abilities that he does not. You can't win an argument against such a person, so you just ignore them. Hashirama has never, not once, been showcased or implied to be capable of directly influencing bijuu to do whatever he wants them to through the use of his power.

Whereas Naruto's method of getting through to the Kyuubi was one more of coercion and conditioning over a period of time, Madara's is one in which, through the use of his power, makes bijuu do whatever he wants regardless of their own personal freewill. Hashirama does not possess such a power. His power over bijuu focuses exclusively on suppressing and restraining their power, and that's all that we've ever seen of Hashirama's abilities.

Also, Hiashi was correct. There's no single clan inside Konoha that's more powerful than the Hyuga clan. Just because they might not have the single, strongest shinobi inside the village, doesn't mean they also don't collectively possess the strongest clan.


----------



## αce (Dec 10, 2012)

> Hashirama has never, not once, been showcased or *implied* to be capable  of directly influencing bijuu to do whatever he wants them to through  the use of his power.



Actually it's been implied twice. The first time being when Danzo was talking about people with the ability to control bijuu's. He mentioned the only perfect Jinchuuriki's at the time and also mentioned Hashirama along with Madara, who seemed to be the more prominent figures in the conversation. If he was simply talking about suppression of a bijuu's chakra he would have included Kushina, Mito and Yamato in that conversation. However, he was simply talking about getting a bijuu to exhibit ones own will - something that Madara was able to do, which is why Hashirama was showcased next to him - because he had the same ability. Danzo said very clearly - there were only 4. You can count Naruto now too. But even among those four he mentioned, Bee and Yagura were mentioned on the side because their control wasn't equivalent to Madara's and Hashirama's who could simply force the bijuu to obey their will.

The second time being in a conversation (forgive me I cannot remember the chapter) when I believe Obito said that Hashirama had the ability to bend bijuu's to his will and had several under his control at the height of his power.


Again, I'm not sure why this is surprising to anyone. Rikudou was Uchiha and Senju in one man. It makes sense that the pinnacle of Senju and Uchiha, can both, in their own respective ways, take control of a bijuu.


----------



## αce (Dec 10, 2012)

Although yes, it's never been directly observed by us (the readers). It has been implied though, I was simply addressing that part of your post.


----------



## αce (Dec 10, 2012)

I mean, this makes it pretty clear to me that he had full control over bijuu's. Take it for what you will though.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

I believe that part from Danzo has been taken out of context, in the sense that Killer Bee himself is also included in that list. And with the manga as it stands right now, even Naruto himself would be included in that list.

That in and of itself suggests that there are different definitions for "true control" over biju. One method is Madara's, where he gets them to do whatever and obey his will entirely through the power of his Sharingan, another method is Hashirama's, where he uses his power to completely suppress the power of a biju, essentially robbing them of their unbelievable power, and, finally, another form is Killer Bee and Naruto's method, where they actually become partners or friends with the biju sealed within their bodies.

"True control" has many meanings, and Killer Bee's inclusion in that list with the likes of Hashirama and Madara is proof of that. If anything, Hashirama's method of control was letting them know that he's the boss by easily suppressing their power. However, it has never been suggested that Hashirama used the power of the biju to engage directly in battle. That's the type of thing that Madara would do, not Hashirama. If it ever happened, I'm willing to bet that the Kyuubi willingly agreed to assist Hashirama against Madara on the night of their battle once Madara lost the ability to command the Kyuubi, because he saw Hashirama as the lesser of two evils.


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## αce (Dec 10, 2012)

To be fair though, controlling a bijuu when you have a genetic predisposition to doing so isn't really an indication of skill level and it's not really relevant in terms of who happens to be stronger between two individuals unless a bijuu is being included in the conversation or in a hypothetical match up.

Yes, at the height of his power, Hashirama had _several_ bijuu's under his control meaning he's far ahead of any other hokage power wise. And even without them he's already shown far more than any of them could possibly handle. Not to mention his hype probably exceeded all of theirs at this point. It just seems obvious to me, but perhaps I'm slightly bias here. Just as Madara, at the height of his ability, happened to have the Kyuubi. Now by logical powerscaling (and seeing as how it took Hashirama time to take the Kyuubi away from Madara, meaning he actually had to combat it for a while) it's fairly easy to see that a man who triumphed over a beefed up Sasuke with the most menacing bijuu around (while having none of his own that battle) would be considered the strongest of the hokage. 

Skill wise, it's arguable that Minato is better. But it seems to me that raw power exceeds intelligence at a certain point.


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## King Scoop (Dec 10, 2012)

Just because a statement was made long ago doesn't mean it's no longer true. Nothing shown of "Hashirama's power" makes Hiruzen > Hashirama invalid. Every statement made by Madara was carefully written by Kishi, not to contradict previous statements.



Rios said:


> Kishi said Hyuugas are the strongest Konoha clan, deal with it.



The Uchiha clan was wiped out, so that statement was true.


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 10, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> SenjuClan, responding to you is a waste of time.



If you care so much about your time, how is it that your answers are always a wall of text while mine are short? Plus, you refuse to answer my question. 



SageEnergyMode said:


> You are way too big of a fanboy to have a decent discussion with.



I am fanbody?  That was a good one



SageEnergyMode said:


> You continue to believe Hashirama had abilities that he does not. You can't win an argument against such a person, so you just ignore them. Hashirama has never, not once, been showcased or implied to be capable of directly influencing bijuu to do whatever he wants them to through the use of his power.



OK dude once more THIS IS NOT THE SUBJECT WE ARE DISCUSSING. So now, are you going to answer my question?



SageEnergyMode said:


> Whereas Naruto's method of getting through to the Kyuubi was one more of coercion and conditioning over a period of time, Madara's is one in which, through the use of his power, makes bijuu do whatever he wants regardless of their own personal freewill. Hashirama does not possess such a power. His power over bijuu focuses exclusively on suppressing and restraining their power, and that's all that we've ever seen of Hashirama's abilities.



Great thanks. Can you now answer my question?



SageEnergyMode said:


> Also, Hiashi was correct. There's no single clan inside Konoha that's more powerful than the Hyuga clan. Just because they might not have the single, strongest shinobi inside the village, doesn't mean they also don't collectively possess the strongest clan.



I care about this why?


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## αce (Dec 10, 2012)

Control through mutual agreements and control through forced conversion are two different things, yes. They are both forms of control though so it makes sense for Danzo to include them vaguely in the same topic. But suppression isn't really a form of control and given the context of what he's talking about I'm still leaning towards Hashirama having the ability to bend bijuu's to his will. Because, as I said, Kushina casually took out the Kyuubi and Mito apparently had the same ability - yet he excluded them from the conversation because suppression of a bijuu's chakra is not equivalent to controlling a bijuu's will or getting them to do what you please. 

In fact, the sharingan grants both the ability to supress _and_ control the Kyuubi. Sasuke supressed the Kyuubi's chakra in Naruto's mind but the sharingan also grants control over the Kyuubi when the user feels the need too. Assuming they meet the Mangekyo requirement. They are two different things.


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## αce (Dec 10, 2012)

> Every statement made by Madara was carefully written by Kishi, not to contradict previous statements.



This is kishi we're talking about son.


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## Jizznificent (Dec 10, 2012)

tsunade> hashirama> the rest.


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## King Scoop (Dec 10, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> This is kishi we're talking about son.



Overall yea, but in this one part he actually did a good job. He carefully chose his words.


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## Rios (Dec 10, 2012)

King Scoop said:


> The Uchiha clan was wiped out, so that statement was true.



So that makes Iruka's statement true because all other kages before Hiruzen were dead, obviously he is the current strongest.

See where this is going?


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## αce (Dec 10, 2012)

If people considered Hashirama's power mythical, or overrated, then it makes sense that Hiruzen would have been called the strongest hokage or history strongest. Why? Because no one in history could fathom that a man could take on the Kyuubi and redraw landscapes so they dismissed it as being hyperbole. They then concluded Hiruzen was stronger. 

It's probably why someone stated "legends of the past are always over-exaggerated"
No they fucking aren't. Did you see that perfect Susano-o son? 


Kids didn't even know about Hashirama's swag.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> To be fair though, controlling a bijuu when you have a genetic predisposition to doing so isn't really an indication of skill level and it's not really relevant in terms of who happens to be stronger between two individuals unless a bijuu is being included in the conversation or in a hypothetical match up.



I've said this forever. Hashirama's ability to control biju would be meaningless in a potential battle where there is no biju involved. That there, automatically, represents a level playing field.



> Yes, at the height of his power, Hashirama had _several_ bijuu's under his control meaning he's far ahead of any other hokage power wise. And even without them he's already shown far more than any of them could possibly handle. Not to mention his hype probably exceeded all of theirs at this point.



Does it really, though? Minato did precisely what Hashirama did in his battle against Madara, against Obito, and did so in a fashion where he could have come away from the entire thing without so much as a scratch, but he made a decision to sacrifice himself. He could have very easily allowed Kushina to seal the Kyuubi within her and die with it. Hashirama also had help from Mito, in that she is the one who sealed the Kyuubi inside her body. And unlike when Kushina assisted Minato, Mito was not, as far as we know, on her deathbed. It isn't Minato's fault that he essentially outclassed Obito.




> It just seems obvious to me, but perhaps I'm slightly bias here. Just as Madara, at the height of his ability, happened to have the Kyuubi. Now by logical powerscaling (and seeing as how it took Hashirama time to take the Kyuubi away from Madara, meaning he actually had to combat it for a while) it's fairly easy to see that a man who triumphed over a beefed up Sasuke with the most menacing bijuu around (while having none of his own that battle) would be considered the strongest of the hokage.
> 
> Skill wise, it's arguable that Minato is better. But it seems to me that raw power exceeds intelligence at a certain point.



Raw power exceeds intelligence at a certain point, but Minato, I don't think, is one of those cases. This is the guy that was essentially taking on both Killer Bee and A, and made it look like it was nothing for him. This is a guy who, with very little knowledge of his opponent's abilities, figured out and then utterly outclassed Obito, and then robbed him of his control over the Kyuubi, a method, might I add, that would be equally as successful on Madara if Minato caught him off guard and managed to place the contract seal on him as he did with Obito. On top of that, we must also consider that Madara back when Hashirama faced him, didn't possess Hashirama's abilities, nor unlimited chakra, or the Rinnegan.

Even now, Minato is still largely classified as the savior of the shinobi world who would have been able to save the shinobi world, if only he had not chosen to sacrifice himself, leaving the task for his son to complete instead. Also, I think we have to be very careful not to classify Minato's abilities as simply just a matter of intelligence and skill, he has extraordinary power, too. Consider for a moment that he uses Hiraishin as many times, or more, than Kakashi sometimes struggles to use Kamui, and does so with ease, and it wasn't until he warped the massive Kyuubi itself after summoning Gamabunta, that you actually saw signs of him becoming tired. Even so, he still possessed power enough to seal 100% of the Kyuubi away, an entire half into himself using the Shiki Fujin, and then the other half into Naruto using the 8 Trigrams seal.

Minato's death seems very remiscent of the way the Rikudou Sennin went out, using the last of his power to perform a specific set of tasks, one of which was creating all 9 bijuu. Minato prepared Naruto for what was to come in the future, and made sure that he would have help controlling the Kyuubi's power. Minato was extremely powerful. Madara and Hashirama certainly got tired when they were alive, too.


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## Punished Pathos (Dec 10, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> If people considered Hashirama's power mythical, or overrated, then it makes sense that Hiruzen would have been called the strongest hokage or history strongest. Why? Because no one in history could fathom that a man could take on the Kyuubi and redraw landscapes so they dismissed it as being hyperbole. They then concluded Hiruzen was stronger.
> 
> It's probably why someone stated "legends of the past are always over-exaggerated"
> No they fucking aren't. Did you see that perfect Susano-o son?
> ...



We all didn't know about dat Hanzo swag either.


----------



## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

Don't get me wrong, Hashirama was extraordinarily strong, but people are using everything they see from Madara as a sort of further propping up of Hashirama, even though there's no way Madara could go on quite like he has been if he didn't have unlimited chakra. Don't get me wrong, he'd still be enormously powerful, but not to this extent. For example, we found out through Minato that Madara could only maintain his control over the Kyuubi for a short period of time.

Madara as he is now would possess unlimited control and power over any bijuu, especially the Kyuubi. Madara had his limits, as did Hashirama, as powerful as they were. I mean, we are kinda casually dismissing what kind of power it takes to summon a boss toad and then immediately afterwards, space-time warp yourself, the full sized Kyuubi, and a biju dama over a massive distance. He didn't even flinch at the Kyuubi firing a biju dama directly at him. He treated it like it was nothing. If that isn't a clear indication of enormous power, what is?

Consider this: What if Hashirama didn't have Mito to seal away the Kyuubi on that night? He clearly looked to be at his limit in this panel, for example.

PAGE 

Kushina knew Mito very well, so if she says that Mito assisted Madara on that night, becoming the very first Kyuubi Jinchuuruki, then it's certainly accurate that she assisted Hashirama.


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## King Scoop (Dec 10, 2012)

Rios said:


> So that makes Iruka's statement true because all other kages before Hiruzen were dead, obviously he is the current strongest.
> 
> See where this is going?



No, Iruka's statement is true because that's what everyone actually thought. Hiruzen was standing right there and never corrected him. He felt that he surpassed his master.



♠Ace♠ said:


> If people considered Hashirama's power mythical, or overrated, then it makes sense that Hiruzen would have been called the strongest hokage or history strongest. Why? Because no one in history could fathom that a man could take on the Kyuubi and redraw landscapes so they dismissed it as being hyperbole. They then concluded Hiruzen was stronger.
> 
> It's probably why someone stated "legends of the past are always over-exaggerated"
> No they fucking aren't. Did you see that perfect Susano-o son?
> ...



For the younger generations, yes. But all the elders knew Hashirama personally and they all agreed that Hiruzen surpassed him.


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## blackbird (Dec 10, 2012)

Minato is #1. 

Because everything Kakashi says is true:


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

The Third most certainly surpassed the First and Second, that much is clear. And if his defeating the two of them isn't enough, I don't know what is.


----------



## The Prodigy (Dec 10, 2012)

^ the first and second were toying with Hiruzen, at least by Orochimaru's own statement.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

The problem is that people much too easily allow fresh hype to cloud us from the reality. 

Just consider this for a moment, Madara knows absolutely nothing about Obito's abilities, and is targeted by Obito in the same surprising way that Obito did Minato. Madara is not immortal, doesn't have Hashirama's power, and doesn't have the Rinnegan.

How does Madara escape Obito's warp jutsu the way Minato did? In fact, how does Hashirama accomplish the same? Minato deserves a great deal of credit for his power and abilities. Heck, it even takes 3 people just to perform Minato's Hiraishin technique.



Prodigy94 said:


> ^ the first and second were toying with Hiruzen, at least by Orochimaru's own statement.



That may indeed be true, but it matters not in the grand scheme of what actually happened. Hiruzen defeated the First and Second Hokages using a jutsu taught to him by the Fourth Hokage. It was an impressive victory, no matter the circumstances of that fight. Every battle usually has circumstantial situations that may or may not have changed the outcome, but at the end of the day, it still doesn't change what actually happened. If one of the kage had a jutsu as insane as the Shiki Fujin, it's very possible that Madara isn't even here currently. Madara couldn't even see Dan's ghost transformation jutsu, either. He can't see spiritual entities.


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## JPongo (Dec 10, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> Minato just lacks huge scale jutsus to properly fight Madara and Obito.
> Minato has to resort to using S/T to get around those two Uchihas.



Huge scale?  THAT is the problem with most posters arguing on the basis of AOE attacks.  Deidara says hi.

And don't try to underrate S/T, it's about the most broken thing there is.  Obito is basically shoulder to shoulder with Madara coz of it.



SageEnergyMode said:


> The problem is that people much too easily allow fresh hype to cloud us from the reality.



Exactly.  
Sadly it will continue with biased posters jumping the gun at every turn.


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 10, 2012)

I can't wait until it's proven that Minato can do this:All the haters will be like cry


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## AlphaReaver (Dec 10, 2012)

Old Retired Man Solos 2 Kages & Forces A Hokage Candidate to Retreat with the use of a Jutsu taught by the Young Man who Took Over for said Old Man.

Minato replicated Hashirama's feat vs Madara & Kyuubi
Minato can replicate Hiruzen's feat vs Edo Kages & Oro

I think it's pretty clear that Minato is THE best Kage in the history of Shinobi.

He's got parallels to Hashirama, Hiruzen, Naruto & Rikudo himself.

Minato is history's strongest Shinobi. Shinobi Perfection


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## shintebukuro (Dec 10, 2012)

I'm fully ready for Kishi to reprise Hiruzen as the strongest Hokage. Bring on Kinto'un and other Journey to the West abilities!!



...but until then, let's not pretend that Hashirama's strength wasn't retconned, and let's not pretend that anything involving him pre-retcon doesn't need to be thrown out the window.

If you don't want to admit Hashirama was retconned, and you don't want to admit that his fight in part 1 is completely moot, then you _do_ need to admit right now that Part 1 Orochimaru is one of the strongest ninjas to ever live, beyond EMS Madara and Hashirama, and strong enough to _easily_ steamroll the likes of Itachi and Jiraiya at the same time. 

See how much easier it is to just accept a retcon?


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## ~Kakashi~ (Dec 10, 2012)

The sad thing about Hiruzen is we don't even know how good old Hiruzen actually was. It's stated here he wasn't giving it his all vs Orochimaru/Hashi/Tobirama:



And after that he just went straight to Shiki Fuujin.

Hiruzen will probably forever be an "unknown". Because of that, you probably cannot put him above either Hashirama or Minato, going off feats, anyway.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

I don't think at all that Hiruzen is an unknown. I think he is very much a known quantity, and a known quantity that I think has made a legitimate case that he had surpassed the First Hokage, even if he hasn't surpassed him in terms of natural genetic gifts, which is exactly what so many (not all, mind you) on here are using as an argument to suggest that he's stronger than every other Hokage.

Once Hiruzen became completely fed up with what Orochimaru had become, there was a very clear difference in talent and skill between the two individuals. He got involved in direct weapons close quarters combat with Orochimaru, easily disarmed him of his weapon, and then used a very clever feint where he extended his staff weapon towards Orochimaru, forcing Orochimaru to react, thus leaving himself wide open for Hiruzen to catch him off guard by getting up close and personal with the Shiki Fujin. For some reason, not enough people seem to respect that kind of skill, and seem to brush it off as some sort of insignificant metric in a ninja's power.

Shintekuburo, you suffer from the worst possible condition a reader could ever be victim of, a lack of appreciation for anything that isn't flashy, new, or the latest. The only reason you're even remotely making that silly argument that you are now is because Hiruzen's hype, actions, feats came well in advance of this latest round of hype for Hashirama. If Kishi had decided to save Hashirama Edo for this war, and the Third were still alive, and took down both the First and the Second in the exact same way, you wouldn't be doubting the Third Hokage's strength.

That last bit of action from the true Hashirama, came when Hiruzen defeated both the First and his brother in the attack on Konoha arc. Only thing being thrown out the window is common sense to even attempt to mount a serious argument that nothing before these latest events and story details matter.


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## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 10, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> None of those two are as fast nor as skilled as Minato is.


At base speed, he can only hope of competing with them. Besides, it doesn't matter if he is a little faster; as much as your wank makes him out to be, Minato is not a god, what I said still holds true.




> None of Deidara's jutsu can be compared with Minato's Shiki Fujin. Are we forgetting that Minato made even A look like a complete and utter joke? This is the same Minato that looked like he easily had the upperhand against both A and Killer Bee. First of all, Hiruzen beat Hashirama and his brother at the same time. So please stop telling me about what Hashirama can or can't do. Hiruzen surpassed both Hashirama and Tobirama, and he defeated the both of them using the Fourth Hokage's strongest jutsu.


My point was that Deidara was able to dodge very fast oppnents. In other words, it is stupid to say that just because one opponent is faster, the other is just a sitting duck.

Also, you don't know half of what Hashirama (or Tobirama for that matter) can do. Like his brother, he was merely toying with Hiruzen, and still proved to be a most fearsome opponent, not to mention Sarutobi was a very strong guy that could easily keep up with and murderstomp Minato, even teaching him a few tricks while he's at it.

I see that you keep ignoring what I said about Hashirama being a particularly bad opponent to Minato because of his field-changing abilities. Ease up on the wank, argue objectively and don't bring up irrelevant topics.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Dec 10, 2012)

Prime Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage.

Minato had the potential to surpass Prime Hiruzen but died young.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

Every argument you just made is weak, *Hiko Seijuru*, and you know it. What the hell does field changing abiltiies matter to a guy who is more than likely too damn fast or skilled to be caught by such things in the first place? You're talking about field changing abilities against a ninja that treats field destroying techniques like the biju bomb like they're insignificant before his own abilities.

None of Deidara's opponents were ever as fast as Minato is, stop trying make two things out to be equals when they are not. Minato isn't just a little faster, he's tremendously faster than anyone Deidara has ever gone up against. There's a reason whenever we've seen Naruto move at his fastest, he has been compared with Minato himself, but even then we know Naruto can't be as fast as his father, because his father's space-time ninjutsu makes that impossible.

Yea, Sarutobi can easily keep up with and murderstomp Minato, and yet it was Minato shown saving Hiruzen's ass on the night of the Kyuubi attack, and not the other way around. Hiruzen was more afraid of the Fourth Hokage's coffin than he was of the First and Second's coffin in his fight against Orochimaru, and his statements more or less support this notion. You talk about Hiruzen murderstomping Minato, and yet without being taught a trick or two from Minato himself, Hiruzen would have stood zero chance of defeating the First and Second Hokages on that day. 

Don't accuse me of wank and then go off and spout that kind of nonsense. Please use stronger arguments or don't even waste your time, please


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## HoriMaori (Dec 10, 2012)

Over? 22 pages suggest it's only just begun.

Shouts out to Senju Hashirama


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## JPongo (Dec 10, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> Yea, Sarutobi can easily keep up with and murderstomp Minato, and yet it was Minato shown saving Hiruzen's ass on the night of the Kyuubi attack, and not the other way around. Hiruzen was more afraid of the Fourth Hokage's coffin than he was of the First and Second's coffin in his fight against Orochimaru, and his statements more or less support this notion. You talk about Hiruzen murderstomping Minato, and yet without being taught a trick or two from Minato himself, Hiruzen would have stood zero chance of defeating the First and Second Hokages on that day.



I was just gonna say something like this. 

Hiko, where the heck do you come off saying Hiruzen can KEEP UP and MURDERSTOMP Minato?  WTH?

Minato's use of SF was sick.

It's like Kenshin hitting Aoshi with his ultimate attack (Hiruzen), then hitting Shishio with the same attack albeit at a greater level (Minato).


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## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 10, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> Every argument you just made is weak, *Hiko Seijuru*, and you know it. What the hell does field changing abiltiies matter to a guy who is more than likely too damn fast or skilled to be caught by such things in the first place? You're talking about field changing abilities against a ninja that treats field destroying techniques like the biju bomb like they're insignificant before his own abilities.
> 
> None of Deidara's opponents were ever as fast as Minato is, stop trying make two things out to be equals when they are not. Minato isn't just a little faster, he's tremendously faster than anyone Deidara has ever gone up against. There's a reason whenever we've seen Naruto move at his fastest, he has been compared with Minato himself, but even then we know Naruto can't be as fast as his father, because his father's space-time ninjutsu makes that impossible.
> 
> ...


Again, you are bringing up irrelevant topics and underestimating experienced S-class ninja for the sake of wank. The Bijuudama shares nothing in common with Hashirama's Mokuton. Sure, Minato could probably dodge a few kunai, but when the landscape itself on which he stands caves and succumbs to his opponent's will, he simply has no chance. Note that I'm not talking about some Iwa Chuunin's Doton here; this is the leader of the Senjuu clan. Minato _would_ get caught.

As for Naruto, he was said to have surpassed Minato, and by the way, you must have reading comprehension issues, since Minato never defeated A or Bee; in fact, A said he fought Minato many times, and while he admitted that Minato was faster, he never claimed he was superior or stronger, and that is where your fanboyism gets in the way.

Hirzuen on the other hand wasn't 'more afraid' of Minato's coffin; it was just one more preventable hassle, and there is no proof it was Minato's anyway, as he was trapped in Shiki Fuujin. And during the Kyuubi's attack, Minato didn't do shit to 'save' Sarutobi, who was too old to deal with the situation, as he was retired already. It was simply Minato's job to deal with the threat.

I would call your arguments weak, but you don't really seem to have any. All I see is wank, baseless speculation, avoiding important subjects and misinterpretation of canon.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

Whatever you say, we aren't going to agree, so let's just leave it at that. Hiruzen and Minato are the best of the Hokage. The others were impressive, too, no surprise there, but Hiruzen and Minato are most likely the best.


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## JPongo (Dec 10, 2012)

^^Minato was the third coffin, proven when Kabuto told Tobi about ET.


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## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 10, 2012)

JPongo said:


> I was just gonna say something like this.
> 
> Hiko, where the heck do you come off saying Hiruzen can KEEP UP and MURDERSTOMP Minato?  WTH?
> 
> ...


You really think Minato's teacher's teacher, the Professor, easily gets fodderized? That is laughable. He knows over 1000 Jutsu; you haven't seen anything from him. I'm pretty sure one or two could give Minato a hard time.

As for Shiki Fuujin, two things:

1) There is no proof Minato's was greater than Hiruzen. The latter simply didn't have to make it reach far, which he probably could have if he had fought the Kyuubi.

2) This is a suicide Jutsu on a much smaller scale than C0, not some cool insta-pwn Jutsu; get over it.



SageEnergyMode said:


> Whatever you say, we aren't going to agree, so let's just leave it at that.


You're right about that. You must be tired.




> *Hiruzen and Minato are the best of the Hokage.* The others were impressive, too, no surprise there, but Hiruzen and Minato are most likely the best.


Don't clench your fists too hard during the future chapters.


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## shintebukuro (Dec 10, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:
			
		

> Shintekuburo, you suffer from the worst possible condition a reader could ever be victim of, a lack of appreciation for anything that isn't flashy, new, or the latest. The only reason you're even remotely making that silly argument that you are now is because Hiruzen's hype, actions, feats came well in advance of this latest round of hype for Hashirama. If Kishi had decided to save Hashirama Edo for this war, and the Third were still alive, and took down both the First and the Second in the exact same way, you wouldn't be doubting the Third Hokage's strength.



I specifically said that I'm willing to see Hiruzen have updated feats. I _want_ it to happen. I like Hiruzen and I want him to be strong, and I especially want him to have cool Journey to the West abilities. I'm *excited* at the thought of it.


Your first sentence up there is utterly ridiculous, by the way. Hashirama's ability in part 1 was called "Mokutonjutsu" and _was *not* a Kekkei Genkai_. Today, it is referred to as "Mokuton" and is the _*strongest*_ Kekkei Genkai after the Rinnegan itself. He is also the strongest descendent of the ninja _God_, Rikudou Sennin.. 

There's nothing "flashy" about the stuff above; *Kishimoto changed things*. It happens all the time and it's not a big deal.



> That last bit of action from the true Hashirama, came when Hiruzen defeated both the First and his brother in the attack on Konoha arc. Only thing being thrown out the window is common sense to even attempt to mount a serious argument that nothing before these latest events and story details matter.



It's funny; I'm willing to directly face your argument, yet you do not even glance at mine?

*How strong do you think Part 1 Orochimaru was in that fight? *

If EMS Madara's PS can handily defeat the 5 Kage, then that means Hashirama could certainly match that feat, which in turn means he should have been _easily_ able to use Hashi along with his brother to basically be the strongest ninja in the series. Akatsuki could be crushed, Itachi could be easily captured, and he wouldn't even need the Sand village or his own village to assault Konoha. His attacks would change the landscape, and someone as strong as Mei would give up all hope in face of his power.

Isn't that a sillier alternative to just...recognizing a retcon exists?



> Only thing being thrown out the window is common sense



What's "common sense" is that Kishimoto has completely retconned who and what Shodai Hokage was, and specifically ignored Hiruzen at all costs. Kishimoto essentially bends over backwards to insert Hashirama in the manga constantly, and hypes him to no end. There's no word of Hiruzen.

Let's use "common sense" here; Kishimoto changed things. To avoid the fact he made a retcon, he doesn't tread in the zone of Hiruzen's strength anymore. The "strongest" Hokage who used to be one of _the_ most important characters, is now _never_ mentioned or talked about. Meanwhile, all we hear about is Minato and especially Hashirama.

Let's put 2 and 2 together here.


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## αce (Dec 10, 2012)

If you don't think Hashirama's strength was retconned, you are in some serious fucking denial. And it's very sad to read.


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## JPongo (Dec 10, 2012)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> You really think Minato's teacher's teacher, the Professor, easily gets fodderized? That is laughable. He knows over 1000 Jutsu; you haven't seen anything from him. I'm pretty sure one or two could give Minato a hard time.
> 
> As for Shiki Fuujin, two things:
> 
> ...



Jiraiya was Minato's teacher.  Yet Minato taught Jiraiya's teacher and his sensei

You previously say that Hiruzen can keep up and murderstomp Minato and now you say you're pretty sure Hiruzen's got a couple of jutsus that could give Minato a hard time.  You got any proof for this or is it just unadulterated bias and hate towards not giving Minato the time of day at all?

Minato taught Hiruzen SF which really implies (and shown) Minato has greater use of it.

Sealing jutsus are THE top tier of jutsus that can deal with any shinobi, especially at the level of SF.  I doubt C0 can do anything to Kurama.

It's not all about AOE.


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## αce (Dec 10, 2012)

The Minato arguments are less stupid than the Hiruzen arguments. The Hiruzen arguments are centered around a single statement from _Iruka_ and statements from the databook - which Kishi has shown not to give two fucks about in the first place. And even then, all of the Minato arguments stem from statements from people who would have had no idea how strong Hashirama really was. 

Let's not sit here and pretend the guy with Tsunade level healing, landscale changing, Kage one shotting abilities, bijuu level dragons, Mokuton clone armies and landscape obscuring genjutsu isn't a step above the rest. Madara outright stated that the Kage's were nothing to Hashirama. Yet no one in their right minds thinks Minato can solo the current Gokage.


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## Blaze Release (Dec 10, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> ^ the first and second were toying with Hiruzen, at least by Orochimaru's own statement.



Actually you've shot yourself in the foot there.
Now im not saying Hiruzen can defeat 2 hokages at the same time, not at all, but ill bring up facts.


Edo tensei grants infinite chakra. Fact
The hokage brother's were brought back in the youth, most likely their time of death. FACT
It was a 3 vs 1 scenario. Fact


Hiruzen's reserves along with his strength was said to have diminished due to old age. Fact

He was past his prime. Fact

He was facing 3 kage level ninja's. Fact


Its obvious which team had the advantage and which team was at the disadvantage. Sure orochimaru didn't make full use of previous hokage's, however its still clear that Hiruzen was at a great disadvantage ans still showed off impressive feats


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## Samurai Fodder (Dec 10, 2012)

It is hard to determine who is the "strongest." In a debate like this "strong" is a totally subjective term that could mean many different things. It is important to recognize that sometimes ninja just do not have the required arnsenal of techs to defeat someone. Perfect example is Gai and Kisame. Gai is a perfect counter to Kisame, while Kisame is a perfect counter to all Bijuu. This does not mean that Gai is a perfect counter to Bijuu.

Now, if "strength" was based on 1v1 cage matches than Hashirama deffinately reigns supreme.

But, if "strength" was based on having a diverse arsenal of techniques fitting to potentially any situation Hiruzen reigns supreme.

Also, wasn't there a page introducing the idea of Kages before the Chuunin exam. The page then goes on to say that the Hiruzen is the stongest of all the current Kages? I totally believe that. The current Kages are pretty lame and one-dimensional.


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## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 10, 2012)

JPongo said:


> Jiraiya was Minato's teacher.  Yet Minato taught Jiraiya's teacher and his sensei
> 
> You previously say that Hiruzen can keep up and murderstomp Minato and now you say you're pretty sure Hiruzen's got a couple of jutsus that could give Minato a hard time.  You got any proof for this or is it just unadulterated bias and hate towards not giving Minato the time of day at all?
> 
> ...


It is sad that you can't see through obvious sarcasm.

'Not giving Minato the time of the day'? Despite people like you, I defended him in that troll thread that said Kushina 'has always been stronger than Minato' and when someone compared his feat against the Kyuubi to Tsunade's against Pain.

Minato may have taught his Sensei a couple of Jutsu he invented/had, but he received most of his training and abilities from the men you so easily dismiss.

As for what I said about Hiruzen, I was just mocking your need to have everything spelled out for you. Some things are simply common sense, like knowing the First Mizukage can beat Udon easily or that Itachi has Izanami's pair, Izanagi.

But even if you insist on having a very limited brain capacity, Hiruzen has shown abilities that puts that one-trick pony in his place: Doton, Katon, Enma's staff, Kage Bunshin; he would just be too much, especially if he knew Minato's abilities, which he did. Don't simply right off experience.

By the way, wipe off the jizz. Sealing Jutsu are not meant for fights, let alone being able to 'deal with any shinobi.' Shiki Fuujin is merely an exception. That is why the Whirlpool village, which specialized in such Jutsu, got erased a long time ago.

And again, suicide Jutsu are not really that practical.

Also, C0 actually killed Manda.


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## AlphaReaver (Dec 10, 2012)

Minato's such a g he taught his teacher & his teacher's teacher, lmao


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## The Prodigy (Dec 10, 2012)

Blaze Release said:


> Actually you've shot yourself in the foot there.
> Now im not saying Hiruzen can defeat 2 hokages at the same time, not at all, but ill bring up facts.
> 
> 
> ...



Everything said, is that Hiruzen wasn't at his best. Neither was the first or second hokage. They were used in a half assed manner, for one. And two, the retcon for both the first and second hokage are massive. 1st was considered a fairy tail and well would've shitted on the gokage, then we have second hokage that created ET, and had s/t jutsu unseen. Hiruzen in his prime barely worked the kyuubi. Minato outperformed hiruzen there, and we all know Hashi would've done better than both together.

Hashirama is the strongest. His hype > Hiruzens. And before you throw in the iruka said he was the strongest hokage card. You have to remember the hype given to minato only naruto will surpass him. Hashi being called a fairy tail and being able to stomp the gokage if serious trumps the other kages...........again kishi retconned the 2nd and especially the 1st hokage.


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## AlphaReaver (Dec 10, 2012)

I dunno bout no retconnin, but I know Minato's Jutsu shitted on Hashi & his baby bro!


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

The best argument some people have is, "Kishi decided to show or say this later, so it must clearly mean everything else before this is irrelevant and doesn't matter." Sorry, but things just don't work that way. It's faulty logic. I wonder if some even realize that this is the entire focal point of their arguments?

I saw Hiruzen fight against Hashirama, and besides Hiruzen obviously being older and out of his prime, and clearly conflicted about fighting Orochimaru in the first place, Hiruzen didn't somehow look way out of his depth. In fact, he looked pretty damn up to the task. There was a reason for the Third's confidence. He literally told the two of them to prepare to be defeated. I don't think that's something someone such as the Third would dare say lightly. Folks are more impressed by that with which they know so little about. 

Why else are people suddenly so quick to write off Obito the moment they found out he was Tobi, despite the fact that he's one of the strongest ninjas in history? Let's be honest here, a lot of people simply don't respect true strength when they see it. They feel much more comfortable idolozing people they know much less. It comes as no surprise at all that, now that they have a chance to see Madara in action, and he's heavily souped up compared to what he was when he was alive, and he has in many ways overdelivered, people are now using Madara's tremendously enhanced, chakra limitless existence to serve as a means to bolster every argument they ever wanted to make about the way things are in the manga, but they are missing a very key point: Madara has no limitations. He had his limits when he was alive, as did Hashirama.

What's this crap about Hashirama's strength being retconned. He was never considered weak to begin with. Simply because we saw a violent zombie version of the man defeated by one of the best shinobi ever, in the form of the Third Hokage, is no reason to think that Hashirama was somehow weak. And while his strength was no different, we all know Hashirama's performance would likely have been better if he weren't an Edo Tensei, because he would be in his right mind. However, I don't think that power and those abilities are something Hiruzen somehow can't handle.


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## The Prodigy (Dec 10, 2012)

AlphaReaver said:


> I dunno bout no retconnin, but I know Minato's Jutsu shitted on Hashi & his baby bro!



Paper bomb trap worked on Hashi and Tobi. Talk about nerf'd lmao

Moutkon bushin alone would've been a ball buster let alone pollen world or moukton dragon.

Moutkon was said a secret ninjutsu, but now we know it wasn't. It was a kind only hashi knew. Fairy tale dude beaten by exploding tag when madara pulled of an epic moukton bushin feint on tsunade out of nowhere. And only madaras eyes could see through the bushins? Safe to call that a retcon dude


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## Punished Pathos (Dec 10, 2012)

AlphaReaver said:


> I dunno bout no retconnin, but I know Minato's Jutsu shitted on Hashi & his baby bro!



You mean Kushina's Jutsu


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 10, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Paper bomb trap worked on Hashi and Tobi. Talk about nerf'd lmao
> 
> Moutkon bushin alone would've been a ball buster let alone pollen world or moukton dragon.
> 
> Moutkon was said a secret ninjutsu, but now we know it wasn't. It was a kind only hashi knew. Fairy tale dude beaten by exploding tag when madara pulled of an epic moukton bushin feint on tsunade out of nowhere. And only madaras eyes could see through the bushins? Safe to call that a retcon dude



You folks have a horrible definition of retcon. You guys pretty much just use the damn word to describe things you refuse to accept, not things that have actually be legitimately contradicted. Hiruzen is of a different caliber from all the shinobi that faced Madara. Maybe Kishi is trying to tell you all that he's just that damn good. He's good enough to sneak explosive tags onto two legendary shinobi such as the First and Second Hokage without their even realizing it.

What's more, whatever complain can be made about Hashirama and Tobirama being manipulated by Orochimaru, Hiruzen was old, way past his prime and holding back clearly, because he was conflicted about facing his own student.



Pathos Grim said:


> You mean Kushina's Jutsu



So we've officially come to this. People are now making shit up. She taught him about seals, and his best seals may be influenced by stuff she taught him, but there is absolutely zero evidence suggesting that the Shiki Fujin is Kushina's jutsu. Numerous times, and by more than one shinobi, it has been described as Minato's technique. Wouldn't the Third Hokage of all people know whose technique it is?


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## Punished Pathos (Dec 10, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> You folks have a horrible definition of retcon. You guys pretty much just use the damn word to describe things you refuse to accept, not things that have actually be legitimately contradicted. Hiruzen is of a different caliber from all the shinobi that faced Madara. Maybe Kishi is trying to tell you all that he's just that damn good. He's good enough to sneak explosive tags onto two legendary shinobi such as the First and Second Hokage without their even realizing it.
> 
> What's more, whatever complain can be made about Hashirama and Tobirama being manipulated by Orochimaru, Hiruzen was old, way past his prime and holding back clearly, because he was conflicted about facing his own student.
> 
> ...



Shiki Fujin is an Uzumaki Jutsu.
Minato couldn't have created something so beastly, and dark.
The Uzumaki were savage people and the Death God Seal fits the bill of being an Uzumaki Jutsu.


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 11, 2012)

AlphaReaver said:


> I *dunno* bout *no *retconnin, but I know Minato's Jutsu shitted on Hashi & his baby bro!



So you know about the retconning?

That was an Uzumaki seal, and Hashirama and Tobirama were being heavily controlled by a complete tactical moron. You're getting desperate now.


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## Edo Madara (Dec 11, 2012)

fuck you all. Tobirama is the shit.


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## DraconianMithril (Dec 11, 2012)

The_Evil said:


> When Hashirama and Madara fought, maps needed to be redrawn.
> 
> Take that Lesser Kages!



When Minato Entered an Area, Populations needed to be recounted.


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## Punished Pathos (Dec 11, 2012)

Edo Madara said:


> fuck you all. Tobirama is the shit.



Victim of plot no jutsu or PIS 

He had Prime Hiruzen with him and Danzo PLUS a Sharingan User; Kagami.
Tobirama wouldn't have died if he had those three backing him up.


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## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 11, 2012)

The_Evil said:


> When Hashirama and Madara fought, maps needed to be redrawn.
> 
> Take that Lesser Kages!


 lol must rep


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 11, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> Shiki Fujin is an Uzumaki Jutsu.
> Minato couldn't have created something so beastly, and dark.
> The Uzumaki were savage people and the Death God Seal fits the bill of being an Uzumaki Jutsu.



Cut it out. The only sealing jutsu that was directly mentioned to be explicitly derived from Uzumaki sealing jutsu techniques, is the 8 trigrams sealing technique used to seal the Kyuubi into Naruto. Kushina said that herself, she made absolutely no mention at all of the Shiki Fujin being derived from her village's jutsu.

And what's more, the Shiki Fujin is considered by "The Professor", Hiruzen, to be the Fourth Hokage's Jutsu. Minato taught it to Hiruzen. Because you can't believe Minato created something that beastly, you can't accept it to be his own jutsu? What the hell do you mean Minato can't create something that beastly? He's a genius among geniuses. This is the guy who created the Flying Thunder God Technique, who created the absolute max level for shape manipulation from inspiration he derived from observing a biju's ultimate attack, the Rasengan. Trying to doubt Minato's talent is a lost cause.


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## Punished Pathos (Dec 11, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> Cut it out. The only sealing jutsu that was directly mentioned to be explicitly derived from Uzumaki sealing jutsu techniques, is the 8 trigrams sealing technique used to seal the Kyuubi into Naruto. Kushina said that herself, she made absolutely no mention at all of the Shiki Fujin being derived from her village's jutsu.
> 
> And what's more, the Shiki Fujin is considered by "The Professor", Hiruzen, to be the Fourth Hokage's Jutsu. Minato taught it to Hiruzen. Because you can't believe Minato created something that beastly, you can't accept it to be his own jutsu? What the hell do you mean Minato can't create something that beastly? He's a genius among geniuses. This is the guy who created the Flying Thunder God Technique, who created the absolute max level for shape manipulation from inspiration he derived from observing a biju's ultimate attack, the Rasengan. Trying to doubt Minato's talent is a lost cause.



I'm not doubting anything regarding Minato.
I clearly dubbed the Jutsu Beastly and dark. DARK in nature.
No need to get riled up at me, I'm not dissing Minato.
I seen how people get chewed up in the other threads, bro.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 11, 2012)

Heh, well, the whole "God" thing is sorta Minato's identity. Flying Thunder God, Death God 

People also didn't think the Second Hokage would create a jutsu as dark as Edo Tensei, but he did.


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## Rios (Dec 11, 2012)

Minato is the god of blondes, thats the only thing going for him.


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## Punished Pathos (Dec 11, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> Heh, well, the whole "God" thing is sorta Minato's identity. Flying Thunder God, Death God
> 
> People also didn't think the Second Hokage would create a jutsu as dark as Edo Tensei, but he did.



Tobirama didn't create Edo Tensei on purpose.
He was trying to resurrect one of the 2nd Raikage's hookers.


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## Trojan (Dec 11, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> Tobirama didn't create Edo Tensei on purpose.
> *He was trying to resurrect one of the 2nd Raikage's hookers*.



I didn't know that. @@
from where did you get this info? 
*****

For the thread...
Hashi, Tobirama, Hiruzen and Minato are the strongest Ninja in History
Only, Sot6p, Edo Madara are excluded. The first one for being the start
for everything, and the second one for being Naruto's enemy, perhaps the last one, because Naruto will fight Sasuke as a friend more likely! 


aegon-rokudo


> The Road to Hokage
> The Konoha ninja promotion system
> *
> Standing not only at the top of Konoha, but above all ninja, is the Hokage*. Is it an endless, distant journey until one arrives at that name?



So, Kishi already told us that these four are the strongest characters 

Now among these, Hiruzen is the strongest, and even this Kishi told us
by Iruki who wasn't talk about his opinion, and again Kishi told us about
that in the Databook 1 & 2. 

For those who think Kishi didn't plan for Hashi to be strong, you are wrong
as I said above he already make them the strongest in the world, and he even said by that ANBU


> Anbu about them both: The raven-haired one is the first hokage
> and the white-haired one the second hokage. Both famed
> as the ultimate shinobi, they're the hokage who created and shaped
> Konoha into what it is.



So he was clear again that he made them the "ultimate shinobi" so what
Madara said is NOT a new thing. 



> Picture comment
> 
> -This hijutsu is a legend among legends. There's no one in Konoha who doesn't know about it.
> *Written normally, "Jukai"="broad expanse of dense woodland". The spelling was altered to add the "realm" meaning. "Koutan" means "Nativity", or refers to birth in a royal lineage.





For those who think Hashi was fairy tail! Look, Kishi said that from the beginning, and Konoha's ninjas know about their Hokage and their power
so this is not an excuse. 

Hashi, ultimate shinobi.
Tobirama, ultimate shinobi
Hiruzen, is the strongest, the professor, God of shinobi. 
Minato, unparalleled, unsurpassable, Savior ....etc

So, these are around the same level, the strongest is Hiruzen, and they
can give each other a strong fight and might win or lose, including the 3rd
because just because he's the strongest that doesn't mean necessarily win! 

End of the story.


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## Enclave (Dec 11, 2012)

As people have probably pointed out, no the debate isn't over since Madara isn't a good example of how strong Hashirama was, after all Madara is immortal with infinite chakra which obviously massively inflates his power level.

Edo Madara is logically much stronger than Hashirama.


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## Klue (Dec 11, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> For those who think Hashi was fairy tail! Look, Kishi said that from the beginning, and Konoha's ninjas know about their Hokage and their power
> so this is not an excuse.
> 
> Hashi, ultimate shinobi.
> ...



His legend is deemed a fairytale, because those that heard it, did not believe Hashirama was as strong as his legend foretold.

You've clearly failed to grasp the significance behind this piece of information.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 11, 2012)

I still get so annoyed by people misinterpreting what Iruka said. I don't mean to sound insulting, but the comprehension by most fans has been really terrible on that statement.

Iruka DID not say that the Third Hokage was stronger than all Hokage, including the Fourth Hokage. In fact, the Fourth Hokage is the ONLY Hokage explicitly left out of the comparison by Iruka's statements. What is my proof for this?

Let's analyze what Iruka really said. He was speaking in the context of the past tense, of a time when Hiruzen was nicknamed "The Professor." At such a time when Hiruzen was granted that nickname, *there was no 4th Hokage in existence for Hiruzen to be compared to, which means only a comparison to all existing Hokage as of that time makes sense, meaning the First and Second, not the Fourth.*

This past tense parsing of Iruka's words are only further confirmed by the Third's angry reaction to his strength being spoken of entirely in the past tense. He angrily told Iruka to stop doing so, to which Iruka prompty apologized for doing. How in god's name could the past tense that Iruka was referring to, the time Hiruzen was nicknamed the professor, possibly include a Hokage that simply did not even exist at the time? The official Viz translation also backs up this translation. Iruka was saying that The Third had surpassed the First and Second, not the 4th. The Fourth is the strongest of them all.

And Hashirama was classified a fairytale, but Minato had an explicit flee on sight order that extended throughout the entire shinobi world, even the Cloud, a village Kishi himself labeled the strongest village in terms of military power of all the five great shinobi nations.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 11, 2012)

Yep, Kishi did explicitly state that there is no shinobi alive who is like Hashirama, leaving out all the dead ones, and let's be serious on the fairytale line. Even Nagato pulled crap that most many years down the road probably won't even believe, including resurrecting every single dead person inside the entire Leaf Village.

That sounds pretty damn fairytale like to me.

A flee on sight order that extends across the entire shinobi world, however? Now that's friggin badass. Even the future kage for the Hidden Cloud was advised to run by a subordinate, and was shown to be in some serious shit if Bee didn't step in to protect him when he did. Remember when everyone and their mother on this forum thought Minato couldn't handle the Fourth Raikage or was weaker than Bee? How quickly did that one disappear, eh? This is the way I see it: Madara and Hashirama are simply, on the outside, better suited for battling biju and having landscape altering battles. However, with Minato's kind of speed, is anyone of the illusion that he couldn't probably tag the juubi with one of his markings, quickly change position, and then possibly redirect one of the Jubi's own biju dama right back at it with his space-time barrier?

Imagine Madara having Minato touch him just once, and then Minato using his space-time barrier to absorb the slash of Madara's perfect Susanoo, only for Minato to make the slash reappear right on Madara's very body? A lot of folks haven't considered just how dangerous Minato is truly capable of being with the abilities he has showcased.


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## Azula (Dec 11, 2012)

it isnt over till the end of series


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## Orochibuto (Dec 11, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> You yourself admitted a post ago that most of Minato's hype is just character statements too, yet you jump to the conclusion that Minato is superior. Why?



And when did I said Minato hype is still not hype? When did I said Minato was superior? I said he was superior because I assumed a fake Kishi interview to be true in WHICH KISHI CLAIMED Minato was stronger, this is why I said that, its simlple as that is the interview is true Minato > Hashirama, if not well then perhaps Hashirama is stronger.



PikaCheeka said:


> Off-panel feats are still feats.



They are when they are concrete feats, you surely must be aware that off-panel feats require a higher level of standards than on panel feats as its logical.



PikaCheeka said:


> What did Hashirama do at VotE? Dominate the Kyuubi and PS-enabled Madara.



But this is very vague, its not a concrete feat. Basically we only know that "Hashirama beat EMS Madara whom we dont know his exact level but we know he is very strong, and he beat Kyuubi in the same battle."

Its too vague, it isnt a concrete feat that can directly translate into a solid power level. Why? Because we dont know how they fought, how he did so. We dont know if Hashirama has the same AOE as PS or if he used some chakra drain like Wood Dragon to beat it, we dont know if Hashirama took Kyuubi head on or used Bijuu control to make it a non factor or even turn it against Madara who we know couldnt keep control of the Kyuubi a long time. Just by the top of my head I can already think of 4 scenarios each of with would place Hashirama on a different tier:

- Hashirama used a Bijuu control technique to make Kyuubi a non factor, then turned it on Madara making it Hashirama + Kyuubi vs Madara.

- Hashirama used a Bijuu control technique to make it a non factor, then took on Madara.

- Hashirama took on Madara and Kyuubi frontally without cheap Bijuu controlling techniques, he waited until Kyuubi's control ran out and then fought Madara alone.

- Hashirama took on Madara and Kyuubi head on during the entirety of the fight defeating them both clear and cut.

And this is without taking another important factor like, how as PS dealt with? Did Hashirama had some technique that allowed him to fight PS head on? Or did he used some chakra draining technique that cancelled the PS? Did Hashirama had ANY sort of help at any momment? Were Hashirama's techniques frontal techniques or they were basically specific Bijuus and anti-Uchiha counters? (Like draining chakra out of PS).

All of these questions are very important, all of these can mean a different tier for Hashirama and we dont know which one is true because we dont know how the fight went. Yes winning said fight is a feat, however this feat only tell us in which range of power Hashirama can be, said range is VERY vast. We know he at minimum was among the strongest Kage but thats it without the relevant information we dont know his exact standing, because said fight depending on how it went can go from among the stongest Kages to be the absolute strongest Kage.

Let me ask you something if it was said that the Uzumaki Clan Leader defeated Perfect Juubi would you place him above current Madara? I am sure you wouldnt because while the feat place him in a range, its a very large range, depending on how the fight went UCL can go from top tier Kage level to be able rapestomp current Madara.



PikaCheeka said:


> What did Minato do? Incapacitate a 14-year-old for a second and die putting the Kyuubi down.



I am not saying this necessarily makes him stronger than Hashirama, but we need Hashirama's feats. Minato at least we know how the fight went, we know his feats, we know on what level he can use his jutsus. We cant say the same about Hashirama, all his feats are from part 1, we cant even use current Madara because we dont know how his infinite chakra plus Kabuto's modification could amp Madara's use of Hashirama's jutsus.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 11, 2012)

I agree, real feats that we've seen have to be placed above ones that we don't entirely have the details on. The big exception, I feel, is the Rikudou Sennin's feats. Hashirama taking on a powerful shinobi that was wielding the Kyuubi? Shit, Minato, been there, done that, and he did in easier fashion than Hashirama did. The only reason why Minato ended up dead and impaled that day is because he refused to allow Kushina to seal the Kyuubi back insider her and die along with it. The only opponent to legitimately land on Minato, is when Minato himself decided to dive in front of the Kyuubi's attack to protect his son.

For example, without knowing the details of Sasuke's foolish attack on the kage summit, and knowing that he survived, you would think he went in there and straight dominated them all in the process of taking out one of the kage, Danzou. Details, however, would tell us that Danzou was not with the other 4 kage when he was killed, we would know Sasuke was in serious trouble at the summit and required saving by Obito, and we would also know that Sasuke was nursed back to health under Obito's orders and that Obito took care of Danzou's two most elite guards before Sasuke ever directly encountered Danzou. Details matter, details matter, details matter, and we have the very impressive details on Minato's accomplishments.

The fact that Kishi went through the trouble of displaying Minato's accomplishments in detail, speaks volumes to how impressive Kishimoto believes him to be.


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## JPongo (Dec 11, 2012)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> It is sad that you can't see through obvious *sarcasm.*
> 
> 'Not giving Minato the time of the day'? Despite people like you, I defended him in that troll thread that said Kushina 'has always been stronger than Minato' and when someone compared his feat against the Kyuubi to Tsunade's against Pain.
> 
> ...



Those two words say two things: you were wrong AND you're a troll.

And what's with the name-calling again? Is it the very limited brain capacity you were talking about?

The one-trick pony was revered by friends and enemies alike so that must mean he really wasn't a one-trick pony.  Note that feats shown does not encompass a shinobi's full arsenal all the time.  Now keep that in mind and count the panel time BAMFlash has gotten.  Get it now?

And sealing jutsus is what this war is all about with all these Edo Tensei running around so I don't understand your point.  And to think that SF, contract seal and hakke seal are the ONLY seals Minato knows is downright ridiculous.  There's been no other better sealer shown in the manga so far except for RS.

And again, what can C0 do to Kurama, not Manda?


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## Orochibuto (Dec 11, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> I feel, is the Rikudou Sennin's feats.



The difference is that RS is not a exception, is one of the cases of off-panel feats that fills the criterion. His feats are concrete, we know he created the moon using Chibaku Tensei, this is a concrete feat that tell us about his capability, we know that could destroy the planet, thus we know that at his deathbed RS could lifewipe.

If for example RS only feat was "He won the fight against Juubi" it would be a very vague feat. If we were said for example that Hashirama has a jutsu that can continent bust, this is a concrete feat.

Relating the outcome of an entire event is not a concrete feat, althought its a feat it cant be used to give an exact value.


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## Rios (Dec 11, 2012)

Enclave said:


> As people have probably pointed out, no the debate isn't over since Madara isn't a good example of how strong Hashirama was, after all Madara is immortal with infinite chakra which obviously massively inflates his power level.
> 
> Edo Madara is logically much stronger than Hashirama.



You can always try to figure out how "Prime" Hiruzen would have dealt with PS.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 11, 2012)

Yea, that's what I mean, actually. I'm referring to the Rikudou Sennin's more concreate and outrageous feats that clearly speak volumes to his abilities, like the creation of the 9biju, or his creation of the moon. 

For example, we know the Rikudou Sennin beat the Jubi, but we aren't exactly sure what the "defeat" of the Jubi constitutes, and what actually happened during that possible fight, or how it happened. Take, for example, how Sasuke was credited with the defeat of Zabuza by Chojuro, even though we know that isn't what actually took place.

Another example is Danzou having the power of Shisui's Koto Amatsukami, but Sasuke managed to defeat him anyway. For someone that maybe didn't know the details of their fight, but knew Danzou possessed such a power, they might be thinking Sasuke is/was far more powerful than he actually was. However, thanks to the details we have about that fight, we know that Danzou didn't have access to Koto Amatsukami at the start of his fight with Sasuke, and once he finally did, he was already well at his limit and decided not to use Koto Amatsukami. This is why details are important, and vague end results without actually knowing a detailed breakdown of what actually happened, can be so misleading and ill-serving to readers. 

Hashirama has epic feats, but then so does Minato. Warping the entire, fully sized Kyuubi using Hiraishin is no small feat. It's the kind of thing only an enormously powerful shinobi could hope to accomplish, one that is certainly at a similar level as the likes of Hashirama and Uchiha Madara. Minato also managed this feat immediately after summoning a gigantic boss toad, which we know requires a great deal of chakra, and these two feats came after impressively defeating Obito while stripping him of his control over the Kyuubi, and also after using his space-time barrier to absorb and redirect the Kyuubi's entire biju dama far away from the village.

These are no tiny, accomplishments. These are feats certainly worthy of ninja in the league of Uciha Madara and Hashirama Senju, made all the more impressive by the simple fact that Minato possessed no natural, genetic talent for bending biju completely to his will.



Rios said:


> You can always try to figure out how "Prime" Hiruzen would have dealt with PS.



It would certainly be dishonest to say that there is somehow an easy explanation for how he would do it, but in Minato's case, I certainly see potential paths by which he could be successful. However, it goes without saying that we truly can't know what any single shinobi's entire arsenal is like until they are in a situation where they are forced to reveal that arsenal. If Minato isn't in the situation that he's in on that night 16 years ago, we likely never see the space-time barrier, and we likely never see his contract seal. 

That contract seal is something that could VERY easily also have been used against Madara in the exact same way that it was used against Obito. Madara also utilized the Kyuubi in a similar fashion against Hashirama, and we know that Minato had a way to rob Madara of that control. And it's all too easy to say, "Well, he can just protect himself with Perfect Susanoo," but the fight likely wouldn't start out that way, and by then Minato probably already slipped a Hiraishin marker somewhere on Madara's body, which would allow Minato to invade even Madara's perfect Susanoo. I think Minato is surprisingly well equipped to challenge Uchiha Madara. Of course this current Madara would be much more difficult a challenge, but Minato wouldn't disappoint, especially when you factor in the Shiki Fujin.


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## Closet Pervert (Dec 11, 2012)

Rios said:


> You can always try to figure out how "Prime" Hiruzen would have dealt with PS.


How does one figure out the moves of the God?


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## The Prodigy (Dec 11, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:


> You folks have a horrible definition of retcon. You guys pretty much just use the damn word to describe things you refuse to accept, not things that have actually be legitimately contradicted. Hiruzen is of a different caliber from all the shinobi that faced Madara. Maybe Kishi is trying to tell you all that he's just that damn good. He's good enough to sneak explosive tags onto two legendary shinobi such as the First and Second Hokage without their even realizing it.
> 
> What's more, whatever complain can be made about Hashirama and Tobirama being manipulated by Orochimaru, Hiruzen was old, way past his prime and holding back clearly, because he was conflicted about facing his own student.
> 
> ...



Stop it 

Madara against the 5 kages was able to react to A, and Mei simeltaniously. To Onoki and A, to Tsunade. And was able to go undetected as a bushin for the longest using Hashirama's own jutsu. Hashirama could've created a moukton bushin feint right when hiruzen thought he had him but he didn't. Hiruzen couldn't even hold down the kyuubi, let alone change the scale of the maps. Hashirama > Hiruzen.

Part 1 Hashirama < Hiruzen
Hashirama now >> Hiruzen

I mean dude Madara looked freaking menacing attacking hashirama, whereas against the kages and alliance, he doesn't give a shit. The difference is truly mind numbing. Safe to call that a retcon.


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## Punished Pathos (Dec 11, 2012)

Closet Pervert said:


> How does one figure out the moves of the God?





lol...
Right...


*Spoiler*: __


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## Kid (Dec 11, 2012)

So we all agree that Hashirama is the strongest Hokage


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## The Prodigy (Dec 11, 2012)

Sugar. said:


> So we all agree that Hashirama is the strongest Hokage



Yes, we do


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## AvengeRpro (Dec 11, 2012)

Sugar. said:


> So we all agree that Hashirama is the strongest Hokage



Iruka does not, as he stated in part1 chapter 5 or something. That's the only character of the series that said prime hiruzen was the strongest, no matter the only hiruzen fights we know about were defeats: orochimaru, kyuubi (10 years younger), not saving the 2nd hokage from ginkaku and kinkaku (a portion of the kyuubi's power + weapons that are now in tenten's power) even when it was prime hiruzen.

And minato is out of the question. Dies to madara's/uchihas pet while hashirama laughed at it and sealed it np.

edit: and tsunade, forgot about her rofl. As you might have noticed by now there are indirect comparisons with all the hokages, for example the 2nd died to fodder and the 3rd just loses all the time, but in tsunade's case it is more direct since madara himself said hashirama>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tsunade.


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## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 11, 2012)

> And *what's with the name-calling* again? Is it the very limited brain capacity you were talking about?





JPongo said:


> Those two words say two things: you were wrong AND *you're a troll*.


I love arguing with you. 




> The one-trick pony was revered by friends and enemies alike so that must mean he really wasn't a one-trick pony.  Note that *feats shown does not encompass a shinobi's full arsenal all the time*.  Now keep that in mind and count the panel time BAMFlash has gotten.  Get it now?


Oh yeah? You're taking my own words against me now? When I used to say that about Itachi, you kept whining for proof. That's _pathetic_. What are you, 10?  At least Itachi had the Sharingan, which insta-copies Jutsu (like Hiraishin  ).




> And sealing jutsus is what this war is all about with all these Edo Tensei running around so I don't understand your point.  And to think that SF, contract seal and hakke seal are the ONLY seals Minato knows is downright ridiculous.  There's been no other better sealer shown in the manga so far except for RS.


Right, because every war in the Shinobi World was fought with Edo Tensei . . . 




> And again, what can C0 do to Kurama, not Manda?


More than Minato ever did to the Kyuubi, i.e., nothing. 




SageEnergyMode said:


> It would certainly be dishonest to say that there is somehow an easy explanation for how he would do it, but in Minato's case, I certainly see potential paths by which he could be successful. However, it goes without saying that *we truly can't know what any single shinobi's entire arsenal is like* until they are in a situation where they are forced to reveal that arsenal. If Minato isn't in the situation that he's in on that night 16 years ago, we likely never see the space-time barrier, and we likely never see his contract seal.


 lol look at who is using 'speculation' and no 'proof,' too, after arguing against such a thing. Oh Minato-tards. Gotta love their hypocrisy.


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## Senju Leader (Dec 11, 2012)

Prime Hiruzen>> All Hokage as stated by kishi's data books


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## AvengeRpro (Dec 11, 2012)

Senju Leader said:


> Prime Hiruzen>> All Hokage as stated by kishi's data books



it is common knowledge that databooks mean shit. Plenty of threads about that.

If it is not on the manga it did not happen, even more so if it is directly against it like in this case and several others.


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## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 11, 2012)

Senju Leader said:


> Prime Hiruzen>> All Hokage as stated by kishi's data books


Your name is ironic.


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## Bonly (Dec 11, 2012)

Can someone point me out the scan of Iruka's comment bout the 3rd being the strongest since I don't recall that?


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## Blaze Release (Dec 11, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Everything said, is that Hiruzen wasn't at his best. Neither was the first or second hokage. They were used in a half assed manner, for one. And two, the retcon for both the first and second hokage are massive. 1st was considered a fairy tail and well would've shitted on the gokage, then we have second hokage that created ET, and had s/t jutsu unseen. Hiruzen in his prime barely worked the kyuubi. Minato outperformed hiruzen there, and we all know Hashi would've done better than both together.



Hiruzen was still at the disadvantage from by previous post i made. Also who said prime hiruzen was the one we saw during the kyuubi's attack, not that it matters because that was minato's time to shine.

You also seem to forget that having a genetic trait that allows you to control bijuu's doesn't exactly mean that because Hashirama would do matter than Hiruzen, in that situation he is stronger



Prodigy94 said:


> Hashirama is the strongest. His hype > Hiruzens. And before you throw in the iruka said he was the strongest hokage card. You have to remember the hype given to minato only naruto will surpass him. Hashi being called a fairy tail and being able to stomp the gokage if serious trumps the other kages...........again kishi retconned the 2nd and especially the 1st hokage.




The reason why it was said that only naruto will surpass him is because of the father and son relationship. Its the same way orochimaru/obito have said sasuke will surpass itachi, because they are related. Its the relationship they share is why they will surpass the previous generation.

Also you talk about Hashirama's hype yet forget that the only ninja to share the title GOD of shinobi "Shinobi no Kami" with Rikudou is Hiruzen. Sorry bruh but all hype pales when you share a title with Rikudou. Obviously im not saying Hiruzen is equal to rikudou


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## Senjuclan (Dec 11, 2012)

All hokages are super strong but the first and the fourth hokage stand a cut above the rest. Their feats and hype are simply superior to the other hokages. The nidaime, the sandaime and even Tsunade are all a sight to behold but Hashirama's power was considered a fairy tale; So powerful that Uchiha Madara compared fighting the current five kages together to child's play. He compared fighting Muu and young Oonoki to child's play. Minato too has incredible hype and a killer move. Those two are the strongest. I still give a slight edge to Hashirama given his superior feats though. 

Hiruzen should be forgotten. God of shinobi my ass. Everything that Kishi said about Hiruzen, he turned around and shat on it. He said Hiruzen knew all the jutsu in Konoha. Then, he turned around and showed that that was not true. He said Hiruzen 10 years before Orochimaru's attack was not hampered by chakra. Then, he turned around and showed him being weak when the kyuubi attacked. He said Hiruzen was a god amongst shinobi. Then, he turned around and showed said god could not even protect his ANBU against Orochimaru and got blitzed the shit out by young Orochimaru. Weak, weak, weak. Don't blame me. Blame Kishi. While Hashirama and Minato are teaching kyuubi how to be a good pet, Hiruzen was praying that Minato would come save his ass. Man, should wear an apron and cook Hashirama and Minato dinner


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## Senju Leader (Dec 11, 2012)

AvengeRpro said:


> it is common knowledge that databooks mean shit. Plenty of threads about that.
> 
> If it is not on the manga it did not happen, even more so if it is directly against it like in this case and several others.



Ok but Ill take kishi's word over some random poster on the internet.

Plus old half strength Hiruzen beat a prime edo Hashirama, and a prime edo tobirama + orochimaru. That happened in the manga bro. Until Kishi draws a panel of hashirama soloing Hiruzen or a makes a direct claim that he is the strongest Hokage, *like he did for hiruzen*, then Ill have to go with Sarutobi


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## Rios (Dec 11, 2012)

Senju Leader said:


> Ok but Ill take kishi's word over some random poster on the internet.
> 
> Plus old half strength Hiruzen beat a prime edo Hashirama, and a prime edo tobirama + orochimaru. That happened in the manga bro. Until Kishi draws a panel of hashirama soloing Hiruzen or a makes a direct claim that he is the strongest Hokage, *like he did for hiruzen*, then Ill have to go with Sarutobi



Kabuto's edo tensei was more improved than Orochimaru's so prime my ass. And that doesnt even begin to cover the way Orochimaru played them around. It was stated in the manga, the thing you put above the rest but conveniently forget bits and pieces of it when they dont suit you.

Dont act so haughty, bro.


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## AvengeRpro (Dec 11, 2012)

Senju Leader said:


> Ok but Ill take kishi's word over some random poster on the internet.
> 
> Plus old half strength Hiruzen beat a prime edo Hashirama, and a prime edo tobirama + orochimaru. That happened in the manga bro. Until Kishi draws a panel of hashirama soloing Hiruzen or a makes a direct claim that he is the strongest Hokage, *like he did for hiruzen*, then Ill have to go with Sarutobi



DBs are not kishi's word. Again go google, as it is a shared issue with all animes, but the tl;dr version is springtime of youth is closer to being canon than databooks.

Suicide bombing brock lesnar does not mean beating him. Then you are not considering how much hashi's strength was rectified afterwards and that we now know letting edos free = much stronger and that didn't happen in the oro v. hiruzen fight.

Also did you forget orochimaru ultimately won that fight? 
Or that hiruzen lost to the kyuubi 10 years younger (closer to prime if not in prime itself), which is something like 10 characters can do these days? 
Or that prime hiruzen couldn't protect the 2nd hokage from what is considered to be fodder ninja by now?


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## Punished Pathos (Dec 11, 2012)

Hiruzen can lay bombtags on anyone without them noticing. You know how many  characters he can one shot/solo with just that? Most of them 

His chakra is so powerful that its causes a dense effect on the atmosphere when released.


----------



## InFam0us (Dec 11, 2012)

Shodai solos


----------



## Senju Leader (Dec 11, 2012)

Rios said:


> Kabuto's edo tensei was more improved than Orochimaru's so prime my ass. And that doesnt even begin to cover the way Orochimaru played them around. It was stated in the manga, the thing you put above the rest but conveniently forget bits and pieces of it when they dont suit you.
> 
> Dont act so haughty, bro.



lets see who had the bigger advantage in their battle

Hashirama:

unlimited chakra
unlimited regeneration
had two backups
"held back" by orochimaru

Hiruzen:

old body
half his prime chakra
went up against a 3 on 1
could not put down his enemies witout sealing them

Hiruzen had much more to overcome and he still won. Sorry but most of you are in denial about Hiruzen strength. If Hashirama was not edo his legs would have been blown off from old Hiruzens blitz at the beginning at the battle. Kishi has shown and stated Hiruzen to be superior to Hashirama in multiple ways, and I dont really care if you guys don't want to accept it.


----------



## AvengeRpro (Dec 11, 2012)

great way to dodge questions, but more than those the thing is all what you described was in part1. Now there's 5 times more story and it's completely clear hashirama's and madara's strength was rectified, or more like fairy tales becoming true.

Also it's not like old hiruzen won anyway. Orochimaru lived and hiruzen was getting roflstomped by the 2 former hokages before using death god, which is suicide bombing.

As for prime hiruzen, we know he lost 2/2 fights in 2 different eras so there's no excuse really (kyuubi and running away from the fodders that are kinkaku/ginkaku)


----------



## Senju Leader (Dec 11, 2012)

AvengeRpro said:


> great way to dodge questions, but more than those the thing is all what you described was in part1. Now there's 5 times more story and it's completely clear hashirama's and madara's strength was rectified, or more like fairy tales becoming true.
> 
> Also it's not like old hiruzen won anyway. Orochimaru lived and hiruzen was getting roflstomped by the 2 former hokages before using death god, which is suicide bombing.
> 
> As for prime hiruzen, we know he lost 2/2 fights in 2 different eras so there's no excuse really (kyuubi and running away from the fodders that are kinkaku/ginkaku)



Tell me moron, how else hiruzen is going to permanently put down two beings who cannot die ?

He held back the kyuubi from destroying the village until minato could deal with tobi so how did he lose?

And hashirama *died* against fodders in a random war that had no name or signifigance so that again would put him below hiruzen


----------



## Bonly (Dec 11, 2012)

Senju Leader said:


> lets see who had the bigger advantage in their battle
> 
> Hashirama:
> 
> ...



Didn't he die and fail to beat Orochimaru so how did he win?


----------



## The Prodigy (Dec 11, 2012)

Blaze Release said:


> Hiruzen was still at the disadvantage from by previous post i made. Also who said prime hiruzen was the one we saw during the kyuubi's attack, not that it matters because that was minato's time to shine.
> 
> You also seem to forget that having a genetic trait that allows you to control bijuu's doesn't exactly mean that because Hashirama would do matter than Hiruzen, in that situation he is stronger
> 
> ...



 precognition abilities
 precognition abilities
 Link removed
 Link removed

I'll take the hype from Kabuto, Dan, and Madara far before I believe the hype coming from Iruka. You say such things as Hiruzen has the best hype, yet here we have contradicting hype. "Hashirama was called the strongest shinobi" "there aren't shinobi like hashirama anymore all people agree with that" "considered a fairy tale like the rikudou sennin".

Yeah, nuff said


----------



## Kusa (Dec 11, 2012)

Hashirama for sure.


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 11, 2012)

Senju Leader said:


> Tell me moron, how else hiruzen is going to permanently put down two beings who cannot die ?



1. Never a good idea to insult people
2. To answer your question, he could seal them like Itachi did with Nagato for example. There are many ways to accomplish this



Senju Leader said:


> He held back the kyuubi from destroying the village until minato could deal with tobi so how did he lose?



He held back the kyuubi? Last time I checked the village of konoha no sato held back the kyuubi. Many people died in that effort. Hiruzen was not shown to have contributed more than anyone else. If anything, he was asking others to sacrifice themselves while he was in the back



Senju Leader said:


> And hashirama *died* against fodders in a random war that had no name or signifigance so that again would put him below hiruzen



Panel of Hashirama dying in a random war against fodders


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## AvengeRpro (Dec 11, 2012)

in the end "senju leader" thinks part1 iruka's word > kabutochimaru (the summoner), dan, madara, etc.

madara called fighting the 5 kages child's play and that the only worthy rival is hashirama, who he fought using the kyuubi, perfect susanoo and all his arsenal in an epic battle.
- "Senju leader", do you really, really think prime hiruzen (that got stomped by the kyuubi fighting it 999 against 1) can beat madara, considering you think he is stronger than hashirama, that hashirama beat madara and that madara fought hashi with the kyuubi?

Dude frieza is not the strongest in the universe, but it's obvious you are going to dodge this question like you dodged all mine's from last page.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 11, 2012)

AvengeRpro said:


> in the end "senju leader" thinks part1 iruka's word > kabutochimaru (the summoner), dan, madara, etc.
> 
> madara called fighting the 5 kages child's play and that the only worthy rival is hashirama, who he fought using the kyuubi, perfect susanoo and all his arsenal in an epic battle.
> - "Senju leader", do you really, really think prime hiruzen (that got stomped by the kyuubi fighting it 999 against 1) can beat madara, considering you think he is stronger than hashirama, that hashirama beat madara and that madara fought hashi with the kyuubi?



It seems people can't understand that part 1 is part of the story. :
It's not up to you to exclude something. 

Kabuto said Hashi stronger  than those who are alive, there is nothing hard in this to understand, all people who are died are excluded. 

Madara knows nothing about Hirezen, he doesn't know even the fact that the 3rd defeated Hashi.  he was hide in his hole like a mouse. 

Do you really. really think that madara can beat the 3rd who stomp Hashi and his brother? 

Too bad "truth" always hurt a lot of people. Lol


----------



## Bonly (Dec 11, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> Do you really. really think that madara can beat the 3rd who stomp Hashi and his brother?
> 
> Too bad "truth" always hurt a lot of people. Lol



Yes Current Madara as well as EMS Madara could easily beat the 3rd who didn't stomp the 1st and his bro.


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 11, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> It seems people can't understand that part 1 is part of the story. :
> It's not up to you to exclude something.
> 
> Kabuto said Hashi stronger  than those who are alive, there is nothing hard in this to understand, all people who are died are excluded.
> ...



1. No doubt Part I is part of the story but the story has evolved since then. In part I, mokuton was a hijutsu. In part II, it is a kekkei genkai. We accept it and move on. In part I, Shukaku was the spirit of a priest. In part II, it is part of the jyuubi
2. Kabuto did not just say that. He also said that Hashirama's power was considered too good to be true. How is this possible for people to write off his power if they have seen shinobis stronger than him?
3. Madara had Zetsu scout the shinobi universe. Claiming that he did not know about Hiruzen is pure fantasy
4. Dan who knows Hiruzen better than any other hokage certainly thinks Madara stomps with zero difficulty
5. The truth is that Hashirama's power has been retconned. Deal with it


----------



## Danzio (Dec 11, 2012)

Bonly said:


> Didn't he die and fail to beat Orochimaru so how did he win?



Did you really just ask that? 

What was Orochimaro's goal? Did he achieve it? Who stopped him  from achieving said goal?

Kishi > Fanfiction


Btw, I love the butthurt over Kishi refusing to state that Hashirama is now the strongest Hokage, despite Madara wanking to him every single chapter.The tears are marvelous...


----------



## Bonly (Dec 11, 2012)

Danzio said:


> Did your really just ask that?
> 
> What was Orochimaro's goal? Did he achieve it? Who stopped him  from achieving said goal?
> 
> ...



To destroy the leaf and kill the 3rd,upon which one happened did it not? Unless you have scans showing otherwise that is?


----------



## Danzio (Dec 11, 2012)

Bonly said:


> To destroy the leaf and kill the 3rd,upon which one happened did it not? Unless you have scans showing otherwise that is?



Keep playing ignorant.


----------



## Bonly (Dec 11, 2012)

Danzio said:


> Keep playing ignorant.



Concession accepted. Have a nice day my good sir .


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Dec 11, 2012)

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. The strongest Hokage debate will _never_ be over unless (A) Kishi explicitly says one of them is the strongest in an interview in a manner that leaves no room for doubt, or (B) someone casts Mugen Tsukiyomi on the members of NF, forcing them to all share one opinion.

This thread just proves my point...


----------



## Trojan (Dec 11, 2012)

Bonly said:


> Yes Current Madara as well as EMS Madara could easily beat the 3rd who didn't stomp the 1st and his bro.



Well, your opinion is something and reality is something else. It doesn't matter you want to accept it or not because that wont change anything. However, Yes, current Madara stronger than the 3rd, but EMS  not a chance. 



Senjuclan said:


> 1. No doubt Part I is part of the story but the story has evolved since then. In part I, mokuton was a hijutsu. In part II, it is a kekkei genkai. We accept it and move on. In part I, Shukaku was the spirit of a priest. In part II, it is part of the jyuubi
> 2. Kabuto did not just say that. He also said that Hashirama's power was considered too good to be true. How is this possible for people to write off his power if they have seen shinobis stronger than him?
> 3. Madara had Zetsu scout the shinobi universe. Claiming that he did not know about Hiruzen is pure fantasy
> 4. Dan who knows Hiruzen better than any other hokage certainly thinks Madara stomps with zero difficulty
> 5. The truth is that Hashirama's power has been retconned. Deal with it



1- Well, even though I don't see that different in this, but O.K Kashi changed these stuff, but did he said even for one time that Hashi is the strongest Hokage? No he did not. 

2- As I said before Konoha's ninja know that about his power. The 3rd himself is his student how come that he won't know his teacher's power? 

3- We don't know if he knows or not, and even if he does, that doesn't change the fact that the 3rd stronger than Haish. Also, if hashi can beat Madara up that doesn't mean he can do the same for the 3rd. The same the fact that Hiruzen beat Hiash up that doesn't mean necessarily he can win against Madara + Kurama. 

4- What Dan knows? He died early in the War + Dan didn't say that SoT6P can defeat Madara, are you telling me that Madara stronger than him? Furthermore, Dan said that because only Hashi who fought against Madara and won. Not to mention there are many years after Dan's death and the 3rd might become stronger at that time we don't know. Again just because Hashi can beat Madara that doesn't make him stronger than Hiruzen. 
Otherwise, Tayuya is stronger than Oro because she stomped Itashi & Sasuke.

5- Deal with it? Lol 
I'm O.K with what the writer said, and he said Hiruzen is the strongest
and he make him beat Hashi. Just because you like characters that doesn't make him/her stronger. Also, Kishi always make the 3rd kage is the strongest so nothing new. Lol and I wait for the 3rd Mizukage to be the strongest as well.


----------



## Bonly (Dec 11, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> Well, your opinion is something and reality is something else. It doesn't matter
> you want to accept it or not because that wont change anything. However,
> Yes, current Madara stronger than the 3rd, but EMS  not a chance.




How would the 3rd beat EMS Madara? You the guy who has perfect susanoo which the 3rd has nothing on is going to lose how again? Sir we don't use fanfiction here so im sorry to disappoint you on thinking the 3rd would beat EMS Madara .


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## Trojan (Dec 11, 2012)

Bonly said:


> How would the 3rd beat EMS Madara? You the guy who has perfect susanoo which the 3rd has nothing on is going to lose how again?



Give me a break, you are talking about the author here, do you think he can't give Hiruzen whatever he want or whatever he needs? 

Isn't Kishi is the same person who gave Hashi the ability to defeat PS? 
You think it's impossible for him to give Hiruzen anything? 

I can't answer your question, because I don't write this story and I don't know what the 3rd has at his prime. But Kishi knows and because of that he made  him the strongest. By the way from what we have seen about Hashi, I don't even know what he can do against PS, but just because we don't know what he used that doesn't mean it does not exist. The same for  the other Hokages, we don't know what all there power, but we know that they are the strongest in this story.  (Only the sage, current Madara and Naruto are excluded) 

That's it, and again you are talking about the author if he want  do something he will do it. 
Unfortunately we can do nothing.


----------



## Mastigos (Dec 11, 2012)

We will probably never know who was the strongest Hokage -- we have a distinct lack of feats, and even feats are open to a limited degree of interpretation.

What we do know is that the databook hypes Sarutobi as the strongest in his prime, and that Konoha in general considers Sarutobi as the strongest.

However, Hashirama's power is considered a "fairy tale" by the world, when it fact it was real. That means the villagers interpretation of events was wrong - their opinion would probably change if they learned the truth. 

But that still leaves the databook statement - and one other thing. Orochimaru said that if Sarutobi was 10 years younger (at age 69!) that he would have won their battle. Considering that the Edo Tensei of Hashirama AND Tobirama were there, I'd say that's a pretty strong indication of Sarutobi's dominance. 

There's also that small detail about Hashirama dying to fodder. 

In the end, I'm inclined to believe that Sarutobi was the strongest in his prime. This is doubted due to a huge lack of feats from Sarutobi prime, and huge hype for Hashirama by Madara. But I could easily see Kishi retconning the whole situation via flashbacks.

Until we see feats from Hashirama, I'm going to base my conclusions off the above and say that Sarutobi prime was a monster, and the strongest - at least without any outside powerups (i.e. tailed beasts). But this could easily change in the future, as more details are revealed.


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## Bonly (Dec 11, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> Give me a break, you are talking about the author here, do you think he can't
> give Hiruzen whatever he want or whatever he needs?
> 
> Isn't Kishi is the same person who gave Hashi the ability to defeat PS?
> ...



So pretty much your only basis is "Kishi would give him something to win" for you saying EMS Madara wouldn't beat the 3rd. And on this note good day sir because we are done here.


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## AvengeRpro (Dec 11, 2012)

it is canon that madara can roflstomp the 3rd just by summoning his pet and leave. No need for perfect susanoo, meteors and whatnot.


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## Danzio (Dec 11, 2012)

Bonly said:


> Concession accepted. Have a nice day my good sir .



I didn't you know you could accept a made-up concession..you learn something new every day:



Orochimaro's main goal was to destroy Konoha in which he failed, but you already knew that, since I'm sure you didn't gloss over the fact that Hiruzen was called a savoir/hero on multiple occasions.

Nobody said killing Hiruzen wasn't impressive.To kill off  the strongest Kage ( strongest  Kage at the age of _69_) was a nice consolation prize, which Kabuto made sure to notify Oro about.


Edit (fixed link)


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## Bonly (Dec 11, 2012)

Danzio said:


> I didn't you know you could accept a made-up concession..you learn something new everyday:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup thats the internet for ya . Did you also now that you can post links/IMG's that everyone can see also instead of one's that don't pop up for everyone like you did ?

Thats pretty neat. I don't remember anyone saying he didn't fail in destroy the leaf nor that the 3rd wasn't called a hero/savor but thanks for the recap.

Thats pretty neat,don't remember anyone saying otherwise but ok.


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 11, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> Well, your opinion is something and reality is something else. It doesn't matter you want to accept it or not because that wont change anything. However, Yes, current Madara stronger than the 3rd, but *EMS  not a chance. *



How do you explain that Dan said Hiruzen did not have a chance against Madara then? He said only Hashirama had a chance



TorJaN said:


> 1- Well, even though I don't see that different in this, but O.K Kashi changed these stuff, but did he said even for one time that Hashi is the strongest Hokage? No he did not.



Did Kishi ever once say that Shukaku is NOT the spirit of a priest? Did he ever once say that Hiruzen could not use all the jutsu in Konoha? 

I don't need the author to come out and say something for me to conclude that it is no longer valid



TorJaN said:


> 2- As I said before Konoha's ninja know that about his power. The 3rd himself is his student how come that he won't know his teacher's power?



So, you are saying that Kabuto lied. Right?



TorJaN said:


> 3- We don't know if he knows or not, and even if he does, that doesn't change the fact that the 3rd stronger than Haish. Also, if hashi can beat Madara up that doesn't mean he can do the same for the 3rd. The same the fact that Hiruzen beat Hiash up that doesn't mean necessarily he can win against Madara + Kurama.



So now you are singing a different tune?  Funny

The sandaime being stronger than Hashirama is based on Iruka's statement. Irukua's statement is based on hearsay from his era. However, people in his era underestimated Hashirama's power. That is manga canon



TorJaN said:


> 4- What Dan knows? He died early in the War + Dan didn't say that SoT6P can defeat Madara, are you telling me that Madara stronger than him? Furthermore, Dan said that because only Hashi who fought against Madara and won. Not to mention there are many years after Dan's death and the 3rd might become stronger at that time we don't know. Again just because Hashi can beat Madara that doesn't make him stronger than Hiruzen.
> Otherwise, Tayuya is stronger than Oro because she stomped Itashi & Sasuke.



1. What does Dan know? Well, what does Iruka know?
2. Dan died while Hiruzen was in his prime. You guys claim that Hiruzen regressed in power. So, Dan saw him while he was as strong as possible
3. Your argument is funny. You make a claim based on Iruka's statement and yet you question Dan, Madara and Kabuto's statements?
4. In case you have not noticed Shinobis thought the RS was a legend (even Fukasaka who is 800 years old). So, obviously Dan would not consider him



TorJaN said:


> 5- Deal with it? Lol
> I'm O.K with what the writer said, and he said Hiruzen is the strongest
> and he make him beat Hashi. Just because you like characters that doesn't make him/her stronger. Also, Kishi always make the 3rd kage is the strongest so nothing new. Lol and I wait for the 3rd Mizukage to be the strongest as well.



What the author showed is that he retconned Hiruzen and Hashirama's strength. I accept it and move. It has nothing to do with who my favorite character is


----------



## Danzio (Dec 11, 2012)

Bonly said:


> Yup thats the internet for ya . Did you also now that you can post links/IMG's that everyone can see also instead of one's that don't pop up for everyone like you did ?
> 
> _Thats pretty neat. I don't remember anyone saying he didn't fail in destroy the leaf nor that the 3rd wasn't called a hero/savor but thanks for the recap._
> 
> Thats pretty neat,don't remember anyone saying otherwise but ok.



It appears you needed the recap since you had some illogical illusion about the success of Orochimaro's mission 

You always help a brother out.


----------



## Bonly (Dec 11, 2012)

Danzio said:


> It appears you needed the recap since you had some illogical illusion about the success of Orochimaro's mission
> 
> You always help a brother out.



Yup because you ignored Orochi's second goal and think he didn't get some success as I pointed out and only referred to but keep living in that fantasy world


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## Mastigos (Dec 11, 2012)

> So, you are saying that Kabuto lied. Right?



Characters in a story are allowed to have and often do have views and opinions that do not reflect the authors personal views. You need to learn to understand this fact, instead of claiming someone is suggesting a character lied.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 11, 2012)

> So, you are saying that Kabuto lied. Right?



If you watch Kabuto & Itachi battle, you'll know that they're
legend at lying. XD
anyway as I said Kabuto claimed about who are alive. 

other than that it's only your opinion, and until Kishi said something else
Hiruzen is the strongest, regardless who believe in it or not.


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 11, 2012)

Mastigos said:


> Characters in a story are allowed to have and often do have views and opinions that do not reflect the authors personal views. You need to learn to understand this fact, instead of claiming someone is suggesting a character lied.



You need to learn to follow an argument before making an assumption about where I am standing. 

When a character has an opinion different from the author's, the author makes it quite clear. However, TorJan insists on claiming one character's opinion and ignoring other characters. So, it behooves him to either (1) say that Kabuto lied or (2) Kabuto was wrong. Either way, it is a trap I am laying for him. If character's opinions are subjective, then Iruka's opinion is subjective as well. IF he comes to that conclusion, he undermines his entire argument


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## Mastigos (Dec 11, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> When a character has an opinion different from the author's, the author makes it quite clear.



This is where you're mistaken, and this is why the rest of your post is moot.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 11, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> If you watch Kabuto & Itachi battle, you'll know that they're
> legend at lying. XD
> anyway as I said Kabuto claimed about who are alive.
> 
> ...



Kishi never said Hiruzen was the strongest. Iruka did. So, according to you it is Iruka's opinion only. Right?


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 11, 2012)

Mastigos said:


> This is where you're mistaken, and this is why the rest of your post is moot.



Sure tell that to Kishi who after having characters say that the third raikage had the ultimate defense had Naruto change it to "the best defense belongs to Gaara".


----------



## Mastigos (Dec 11, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Sure tell that to Kishi who after having characters say that the third raikage had the ultimate defense had Naruto change it to "the best defense belongs to Gaara".



You're just fortifying my point. Naruto has an opinion just like everyone else. He isn't Kishi's opinion incarnate: _not everything he says, thinks or does is true, correct or right_. You thinking so is just a figment of your imagination.


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 11, 2012)

Mastigos said:


> You're just fortifying my point. Naruto has an opinion just like everyone else. He isn't Kishi's opinion incarnate: _not everything he says, thinks or does is true, correct or right_. You thinking so is just a figment of your imagination.



Listen, I won't waste my time arguing you. For the sake of this argument if your opinion is that characters' statement are subjective, it means you cannot argue that Hiruzen is stronger than anyone else. Since that is the subject of this argument, I think for all intents and purposes, our discussion is done. Until you come here with a written letter from Kishi about which kage is strongest, please leave us to argue the figment of our imagination.


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## Mastigos (Dec 11, 2012)

> if your opinion is that characters' statement are subjective, it means you cannot argue that Hiruzen is stronger than anyone else



I referenced the databook, and supported myself with evidence and logic. Unlike some, I don't base my opinion on my own interpretation of _character statements in a fictional work_. Since you do that almost exclusively, I agree that arguing over this is a waste if time. This is because you're so infatuated with your own interpretation of other interpretations (made my fictional characters) that you can't be reasoned with. You assume the truth of your beliefs first, and then make an argument. You've got it backwards.

I would recommend everyone follow my lead and just ignore Senjuclan. It's apparent to me that all correct use of logic and reason directed at him will fall on deaf ears, if you will.


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 11, 2012)

Mastigos said:


> I referenced the databook, and supported myself with evidence and logic.



Evidence and logic should not be in the same sentence as "I referenced the databook"

The databook parrots whatever the manga says. It calls Tobi Madara. It says Itachi killed Shisui. Furthermore, it is not written by Kishi. 



Mastigos said:


> Unlike some, I don't base my opinion on my own interpretation of _character statements in a fictional work_. Since you do that almost exclusively, I agree that arguing over this is a waste if time. This is because you're so infatuated with your own interpretation of other interpretations (made my fictional characters) that you can't be reasoned with. You assume the truth of your beliefs first, and then make an argument. You've got it backwards.



 Unlike you I am informed and know that the databook is not written by Kishi. Therefore i don't make myself look foolish by pretending that an appeal to authority argument based on work not authored by Kishi is valid. Good try though

Also, I don't base my argument on character's statements. Maybe you should re-read this thread to look at my argument



Mastigos said:


> I would recommend everyone follow my lead and just ignore Senjuclan. It's apparent to me that all correct use of logic and reason directed at him will fall on deaf ears, if you will.



I would recommend that everyone follow my lead instead and ignore this Mastigos guy until he learns more about the manga and databook. Thanks for the laughter.


----------



## JPongo (Dec 11, 2012)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> I love arguing with you.
> 
> *Ya, it's easy to love arguing when you're trolling.  You actually fear me, lol.*
> 
> ...



You didn't make one lick of sense in that post.  You're easily pwned, and not just by me


----------



## shintebukuro (Dec 11, 2012)

TorJan said:
			
		

> I'm O.K with what the writer said, and he said Hiruzen is the strongest
> and he make him beat Hashi. Just because you like characters that doesn't make him/her stronger.



I like Hiruzen way more than I like Hashirama.

Here's the reality; he retconned everything about Hashirama and transformed him into a much more important, relevant, and stronger character. 

All the stuff about Hiruzen was written over 10 years ago. It was basically a different series back then; there was no Rikudou Sennin, no Rinnegan, no Jyuubi, no Senju clan, the MS didn't cause blindness, there weren't any elemental KKG's, etc etc...

Kishimoto is a human being. He works 15+ hour days, 7 days a week, and about 48 weeks a year. This results in tons and tons of retcons.  Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage was one of the many things that has changed. 

It's fucking weird for everyone to sit here and fight it tooth and nail. The author has not given you a reason to fight it, and he's given you *every* reason in the book to doubt what was written back then.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 11, 2012)

JPongo said:


> Ya, it's easy to love arguing when you're trolling. You actually fear me, lol.


How can I 'troll' and 'fear' you at the same time?  You are not making any sense. Please leave insults to those who actually know how to use them. Go back to what you do best: Wanking and trolling.

By the way, I don't think you're smart enough to get it, so I'll spell it out for you: I love arguing with you because you bury yourself quite well without needing my help.




> You're the one calling Minato a one-trick pony. Explain that.


Hiraishin and kunai Rasengan!!!

Need I say more?

His style works on only fodder and not high-level ninja. Hell, Bee and Tobi would have had him had they fought to the death.




> You said sealing is not practical for war (paraphrase). This is a war now right?


This is not a normal war, asshat. 




> LOL. This is just as bad as your claim that Itachi's Susano'o > Kurama. LOL.


Because it is true and you can't refute it?  




> You didn't make one lick of sense in that post.  You're easily pwned, and not just by me


Oh the irony. 


			
				Hiko Seijurou said:
			
		

> I love arguing with you because you bury yourself quite well without needing my help.


----------



## Senju Leader (Dec 11, 2012)

Fan boys are confusing "retcon" with more recent hype


----------



## Punished Pathos (Dec 11, 2012)




----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 12, 2012)

Senju Leader said:


> Fan boys are confusing "retcon" with more recent hype





			
				shintenbukuro said:
			
		

> *I like Hiruzen way more than I like Hashirama.*
> 
> Here's the reality; he retconned everything about Hashirama and transformed him into a much more important, relevant, and stronger character.
> 
> ...







___


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Dec 12, 2012)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> Hiraishin and kunai Rasengan!!!



ITs easy to say anyone is a one-trick pony when you say it like that. I could easily say that Itachi is just Sharingan. 

But really, its more like Minato is Hiraishin, Rasengan, Shunshin, Space-Time Barrier, Hakke Fuin, Shiki Fuin, Kuchiyose no Jutsu, Food Cart Destroyer, etc.

Need I say more?



Hiko Seijurou said:


> His style works on only fodder and not high-level ninja. Hell, Bee and Tobi would have had him had they fought to the death.



  

Not this shit again. I don't know why you find the need to constantly downplay Minato. I've proved over and over again why Minato spared Bee in that fight and could've killed both of them if he wanted to. He controlled that fight, and dominated two Kage level shinobi at the same time. 

Obito lost, and was forced to flee because of the tag on him, which spelled his defeat.


----------



## JPongo (Dec 12, 2012)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> How can I 'troll' and 'fear' you at the same time?  You are not making any sense. Please leave insults to those who actually know how to use them. Go back to what you do best: Wanking and trolling.
> 
> *You admit you insult others, great info.  You troll my posts coz you fear me, nuff said.*
> 
> ...



Irony?  Isn't that word above your level to comprehend?

Please explain how Hiruzen can KEEP UP with and MURDERSTOMP Minato.

EXPLAIN yourself.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 12, 2012)

RikudouHiraishin813 said:


> ITs easy to say anyone is a one-trick pony when you say it like that.


Interrupting for your dear Minato, who is not even a real competitor in the argument for the strongest Hokage (as much as your kind tries)?  I see you have also dropped the lame Zetsu act.




> I could easily say that Itachi is just Sharingan.


Except Itachi has Katon as well as various skills with kunai and shuriken, not to mention the incredibly large arsenal of Jutsu he possesses.




> But really, its more like Minato is Hiraishin, Rasengan, Shunshin, Space-Time Barrier, Hakke Fuin, Shiki Fuin, Kuchiyose no Jutsu, Food Cart Destroyer, etc.
> 
> Need I say more?


You can't say more. Seals are not combat material, and Kuchiyose is a cop out. His style comes down to Hiraishin. Funny, the other Minato-tard gave up and used the low-panel-time excuse, which I originally used before (and he didn't like it, but now it is convenient for him). Maybe you should heed his steps.




> Not this shit again. I don't know why you find the need to constantly downplay Minato. I've proved over and over again why Minato spared Bee in that fight and could've killed both of them if he wanted to. He controlled that fight, and dominated two Kage level shinobi at the same time.
> 
> Obito lost, and was forced to flee because of the tag on him, which spelled his defeat.


I will be sure to consult you when I am looking for Naruto fanfiction.




JPongo said:


> You admit you insult others, great info. You troll my posts coz you fear me, nuff said.


If I feared you, I would suck up to you or avoid you. I wouldn't have referred to you as the idiot that you are.

Wow, I can't believe I had to spell that out for you.




> I'm pretty sure I'm smarter than you, pretty sure. And I'm about as consistent as there is on this forum. You on the other hand, not so.


Fools do not realize their own foolishness.




> Yes, you need to say more like Minato had such short panel time and couldn't waste time on jutsus that just don't cut it. And how can Bee and Tobi get him coz what's shown is that Minato was better. Don't make sh*t up.


Stop making excuses. Minato admitted to being inferior to Tobi and Bee almost had him.




> A war is a war, asshit. Is there another kind?


A war with _living_ people is different, moron, and seals are obviously useless there.




> Nope, I'm pointing out how silly your arguments are and yet you continue to regurgitate nonsense as if you're the be all end all. lol.


I 'regurgitate' (looks like somebody has taken my advice and actually used a dictionary) logical canon. Of course it is the 'be all end all.' Your counters are pure nonsensical fanon wank.




> Irony?  Isn't that word above your level to comprehend?


Again using my style against me? Man you are pathetic. I thought I told you to leave insults to those who know how to use them




> Please explain how Hiruzen can KEEP UP with and MURDERSTOMP Minato.
> 
> EXPLAIN yourself.


I already did, but it won't go through your thick skull no matter how many times I repeat it.


----------



## AvengeRpro (Dec 12, 2012)

RikudouHiraishin813 said:


> ITs easy to say anyone is a one-trick pony when you say it like that. I could easily say that Itachi is just Sharingan.



Itachi is the character that showed the most jutsus in the whole series, enough said.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Dec 12, 2012)

Bonly said:


> Can someone point me out the scan of Iruka's comment bout the 3rd being the strongest since I don't recall that?


I spent many a dozen minutes trying to find this bitch, so enjoy it.Link removed

Goddamn the manga used to look good.


Senjuclan said:


> Furthermore, it is not written by Kishi.


It's not?


AvengeRpro said:


> Itachi is the character that showed the most jutsus in the whole series, enough said.


Probably not, but if he did, it's because he had waaaaay too much panel time.


----------



## Bonly (Dec 12, 2012)

Closet Pervert said:


> I spent many a dozen minutes trying to find this bitch, so enjoy it.Link removed
> 
> Goddamn the manga used to look good.



Thank you my good sir ,I read from chapter 1-chapter 45 because someone said around chapter 5 but gave up . Accept my rep please


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Dec 12, 2012)

Did I just see someone denounce Fuuinjutsu in the same post as they champion Katon jutsu.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Dec 12, 2012)

Bonly said:


> Thank you my good sir ,I read from chapter 1-chapter 45 because someone said around chapter 5 but gave up . Accept my rep please


Lol you should neg them.

Thanks for the rep, i was hoping to get some for that lol. I thought i would find it easy.


----------



## Miyoshi (Dec 12, 2012)

Though they have different styles, and Itachi has gotten more panel-time, Minato & Itachi are essentially the same person. Very reminiscent of yin & yang.

There's no need to debate their strength. Kishi has made it clear that Minato is a favorite, top tier, and in terms of 1vs1 - undefeated.

Kishi said himself that Minato and Hiruzen were 2 of the strongest dead shinobi.

Minato admitted Obito's means of s/t was more advanced.
He never stated that he himself was inferior.

The encounter with A & Bee wasn't actually Minato losing. That was Minato gaining respect, thus having a change of heart. Bee did a great job at finding a counter, but lets be honest, it was merely for that instance.
Any further into battle with a true intent to kill, and Bee would have been murdered just the same as A would have.

Hiruzen's prime is brought up a lot. It makes things unclear and very opinionated. But as strong as he was there is no for sure thing stating he was better than Minato during the time. What we were told is that Hiruzen resigned  during his reign as hokage to reccommend the job to a young Minato. This speaks volumes about Minato along with his success against Kyuubi compared to Hiruzen's success. Hiruzen was said to be the strongest kage during his reign. 

Of course we haven't seen all what Minato could do. Neither have we with almost every character in the series. Though, it sure does seem like a lot with Minato we have yet to see.

End of the day, Minato has been the benchmark for Naruto to surpass, just as Itachi has been for Sasuke. The 2 are only just starting to be truly surpassed.
With that said, Itachi's & and Minato's brilliance, in compatibility with their skill sets will never be surpassed.

But of course Hashirama's power is undisputed. There's no debating that.


----------



## The Prodigy (Dec 12, 2012)

Miyoshi, I don't think you understand what kinda shitstorm your about to create with that post...


----------



## Miyoshi (Dec 12, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Miyoshi, I don't think you understand what kinda shitstorm your about to create with that post...



On the contrary... I believe I.. Ok I'm bs'n you, I don't have a clue. Lol
I look forward to it though.


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Dec 12, 2012)

AvengeRpro said:


> Itachi is the character that showed the most jutsus in the whole series, enough said.



I am perfectly aware that Itachi does not fit the archetype of a one trick pony. I was merely pointing out the double standard of referring to Minato as a one trick pony by solely listing his signature technique, when a similar method of oversimplification could be utilized to attribute the same effect to Itachi's arsenal. 



Hiko Seijurou said:


> Interrupting for your dear Minato, who is not even a real competitor in the argument for the strongest Hokage (as much as your kind tries)?  I see you have also dropped the lame Zetsu act.



"Your kind". What, are we some kind of subspecies now for liking Minato. Ughh...you know what. I don't feel like dealing with this. We both know that neither of us is going to convince each other, Hikou, and that all we have are basically what amounts to opinions, heavily biased opinions at that (on my part and your part), and there's really no point in dragging it along. I could easily just respond to everyone one of your points, refute them all (with varying degrees of success), and then you'll just reply back and the cycle of hatred will just begin anew. 

Don't take this as a concession (because it really isn't one), but I really don't feel like debating with you anymore. Our perspectives and beliefs are far too conflicting and contradictory, there's no possible way to reconcile them. The best we can do is agree to disagree. I just need to accept that, while I don't agree with you at all on any matter, you have your own opinion that I need to respect. 

And of course, if you continue to insist after this, I could go with Plan B and just respond to your points as usual. Up to you...


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 12, 2012)

Itachi
Hashirama
Minato
Hiruzen
Tobirama
Tsunade


----------



## Miyoshi (Dec 12, 2012)

Minato-Itachi
Kakashi-Obito
Hashirama-Madara
Tobirama-Izuna
Naruto-Sasuke
Hiruzen-????

Almost a counterpart for each significant Uchiha.

Tsunade doesn't need one. -_-


----------



## The Prodigy (Dec 12, 2012)

Miyoshi said:


> Minato-Itachi
> Kakashi-Obito
> Hashirama-Madara
> Tobirama-Izuna
> ...



Hiruzen's counterpart parallel is Danzou.

But bro, seriously. Take my advice, stop with the Itachi Minato parallels. I mean I definitely know they're huge and a shitload. But seriously the level of hate and minato wank or jiriaya wank coming your way is unfathomable..... the threads about this in the KL on a weekly basis at one point wasjust


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Dec 12, 2012)

Miyoshi said:


> Minato-Itachi
> Kakashi-Obito
> Hashirama-Madara
> Tobirama-Izuna
> ...


Hiruzen's counterpart is Danzo, while Jiraiya's would be Orochimaru. They're non-Uchihas though.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Dec 13, 2012)

Who's that hoe in your set Prodigy?


Dr. White said:


> Itachi
> Hashirama
> Minato
> Hiruzen
> ...


Tobirama stronger than Hiruzen and Minato, and _Tsunade stronger than Tobirama_?? I don't even...


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Dec 13, 2012)

Closet Pervert said:


> Who's that hoe in your set Prodigy?
> Tobirama stronger than Hiruzen and Minato, and _Tsunade stronger than Tobirama_?? I don't even...


Lol I see what you did there...


----------



## Miyoshi (Dec 13, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Hiruzen's counterpart parallel is Danzou.
> 
> But bro, seriously. Take my advice, stop with the Itachi Minato parallels. I mean I definitely know they're huge and a shitload. But seriously the level of hate and minato wank or jiriaya wank coming your way is unfathomable..... the threads about this in the KL on a weekly basis at one point wasjust



Lol I'm not on here a lot but I've seen how crazy it gets. This is the most odd forum I visit. It's HILARIOUS!

It's just too much activity to check all the fuckery. 
But once you run through one forum unbeaten you kinda wanna run through another. I'll keep it filtered though.


----------



## Lezu (Dec 13, 2012)

Well you can do everything with Hashiramas DNA like gain more control of the juubi, control tailed beasts and everything else, so hashiramas DNA > everything else. So yeah, Hashirama is the strongest.


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 13, 2012)

Miyoshi said:


> Kishi said himself that Minato and Hiruzen were 2 of the strongest dead shinobi.




 I see you have not yet learned that that interview was fake. Kishi never said such a thing


----------



## The Prodigy (Dec 13, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> I see you have not yet learned that that interview was fake. Kishi never said such a thing



Is that interview your talking about the one where kishi goes on and on about that smile of minatos unrvivalled skill and shit? That ones fake?



Closet Pervert said:


> Who's that hoe in your set Prodigy?



Why? What's your mo CP?  if that's your real name


----------



## vinnycool sannin (Dec 13, 2012)

Faustus said:


> OP, you obviously forgot that manga has already confirmed Shodai gained control over Kurama and it was actually Shodai+Kurama against Madara
> 
> But of course Hashirama is the strongest.



NOOO!!!!
shodai took over control of kyuubi from madara as he stated the use of wooden dragon with chakra draining powers in the battle...so shodai took on madara+9tails  deal with it


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Dec 13, 2012)

Yes it is settled

Tobirama Senju > Rest of the fodder kages


----------



## jajanken (Dec 13, 2012)

Hamaru said:


> That would be interesting.


  *stares at sig* sorry... what?

Oh ya, well since this mostly all hype based, the most hype obviously wins, aka Hashirama


----------



## Closet Pervert (Dec 13, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Why? What's your mo CP?  if that's your real name


So i can find more pics to fap at. Are you calling me a liar?


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Dec 13, 2012)

*Not quite...*



Faustus said:


> OP, you obviously forgot that manga has already confirmed Shodai gained control over Kurama and it was actually Shodai+Kurama against Madara
> 
> But of course Hashirama is the strongest.


That's like saying two samurai start off fighting with swords and one samurai takes the other's sword away and then SLICE, SLASH!. Afterwards the other samurai is on his way to the hospital so they can zip his unzipped ass back up he tells the paramedics, "I never had a chance. He had two swords; I was going hand to hand."

See how that works?

If it's you and your Mini-Me against this other dude. And he steals your Mini-Me and beats you close to death with him then it was *still *you and your Mini-Me against this other dude. You just took that ass whooping that's all. *Own *that ass whooping. *It's yours.* No one will EVER be able to take that ass whooping away from you.


----------



## AvengeRpro (Dec 13, 2012)

now to finally get hiruzen out of the question: dat tongue

plus all that was said before (3 fights 3 defeats, including fodder on his prime and some chakra pet 10 years ago the fight were he died)


----------



## Blaze Release (Dec 13, 2012)

AvengeRpro said:


> now to finally get hiruzen out of the question: dat tongue
> 
> plus all that was said before (3 fights 3 defeats, including fodder on his prime and some chakra pet 10 years ago the fight were he died)



I'm confused. What exactly are you trying to say from that page?


----------



## Bonly (Dec 13, 2012)

Blaze Release said:


> I'm confused. What exactly are you trying to say from that page?



That the 3rd was not the strongest. He says that a ninja that can stand up to Orochi doesn't exist in the leaf (1)(2) thus implying that if he can't stand up to Orochi then he can't be the strongest Hokage. At least I think that was what  AvengeRpro was trying to say.


----------



## HashiraMadara (Dec 13, 2012)

That's exactly what he stated.
Also, Hiruzen knew the only way to deal with the 1st and 2nd was with a suicide sealing jutsu, which was Minato's, not his own. Basically meaning Minato helped from beyond the grave to protect the leaf, but Hashirama still solos.


----------



## Blaze Release (Dec 13, 2012)

Bonly said:


> That the 3rd was not the strongest. He says that a ninja that can stand up to Orochi doesn't exist in the leaf (1)(2) thus implying that if he can't stand up to Orochi then he can't be the strongest Hokage. At least I think that was what  AvengeRpro was trying to say.



But that is hardly an argument, firstly because the manga and DB has already established that Hiruzen wasn't exactly in his prime, that alone is enough to through that argument out of the window.

You also seem to forget that he is the hokage. Being hokage even if your opponent is deemed 'stronger' than you, you have to fight them. Minato at first thought Obito was Madara, however he said it didn't matter and he was right, whoever your opponent is you have to fight them. Tobirama knew that fighting those 20 bounty hunters would be his death, yet he took on the task.

Just because an opponent is deemed stronger hardly means anything.
Finally;



"The two shinobi's were *equally matched* and the battle seemed endless" 

This is Hiruzen at 69


----------



## AvengeRpro (Dec 13, 2012)

Blaze Release said:


> But that is hardly an argument, firstly because the manga and DB has already established that Hiruzen wasn't exactly in his prime, that alone is enough to through that argument out of the window.



We know about 2 "prime hiruzen" fights:
1.- When he was designed hokage by the second, that died to what's now considered to be semi fodder (kinkaku and ginkaku.....whose weapons are on tenten's power). If prime hiruzen can't defend the 2nd against tenten then he can't be the strongest.
2.- If you think he wasn't on his prime at that moment, there's a second fight which is when he faced the kyuubi (10 years before fighting orochimaru), which is nowadays stomped by several characters. In that occasion hiruzen was stomped too.

And again, there are plenty of reasons why databooks are not canon, particularly in naruto, which you can google. If you read the manga (not the anime) you'll see hiruzen was getting stomped before using death god so "equally matched" mA.

Hashirama was so strong he was considered to be a fairy tale. That's a class of his own.


----------



## Bonly (Dec 13, 2012)

Blaze Release said:


> But that is hardly an argument, firstly because the manga and DB has already established that Hiruzen wasn't exactly in his prime, that alone is enough to through that argument out of the window.
> 
> *You also seem to forget that he is the hokage*. Being hokage even if your opponent is deemed 'stronger' than you, you have to fight them. Minato at first thought Obito was Madara, however he said it didn't matter and he was right, whoever your opponent is you have to fight them. Tobirama knew that fighting those 20 bounty hunters would be his death, yet he took on the task.
> 
> ...



I agree he wasn't in his prime when he fought Orochi.

No I did not. You do realize that I was just explaining what AvengeRpro said, I am not saying these things myself .


----------



## Miyoshi (Dec 13, 2012)

Blaze Release said:


> But that is hardly an argument, firstly because the manga and DB has already established that Hiruzen wasn't exactly in his prime, that alone is enough to through that argument out of the window.
> 
> You also seem to forget that he is the hokage. Being hokage even if your opponent is deemed 'stronger' than you, you have to fight them. Minato at first thought Obito was Madara, however he said it didn't matter and he was right, whoever your opponent is you have to fight them. Tobirama knew that fighting those 20 bounty hunters would be his death, yet he took on the task.
> 
> ...



You think being 69 would stop Ftg from being instantaneous?


----------



## The Prodigy (Dec 13, 2012)

Closet Pervert said:


> So i can find more pics to fap at. Are you calling me a liar?



Oh really now?


----------



## Olympian (Dec 13, 2012)

AvengeRpro said:


> We know about 2 "prime hiruzen" fights:
> 1.- When he was designed hokage by the second, that died to what's now considered to be semi fodder (kinkaku and ginkaku.....whose weapons are on tenten's power). If prime hiruzen can't defend the 2nd against tenten then he can't be the strongest.



That doesn`t make any sense. Not only are the brothers nothing related to fodder, they weren`t alone and the weapons are still some of the strongest we have seen so far, by description. Ten Ten got nothing to do with this. She can use one weapon and be on the verge of death, so what?



AvengeRpro said:


> 2.- If you think he wasn't on his prime at that moment, there's a second fight which is when he faced the kyuubi (10 years before fighting orochimaru), which is nowadays stomped by several characters. In that occasion hiruzen was stomped too.



Hiruzen was already out of prime when the Kyubbi attacked. He was 57 years old and wasn`t the Hokage in active duty. "Nowaydays stomped by several characters" like who?



AvengeRpro said:


> And again, there are plenty of reasons why databooks are not canon, particularly in naruto, which you can google. If you read the manga (not the anime) you'll see hiruzen was getting stomped before using death god so "equally matched" mA.



I read the Manga and I see Hiruzen countering 3 high level opponents. 



AvengeRpro said:


> Hashirama was so strong he was considered to be a fairy tale. That's a class of his own.


Maybe. But Hiruzen is also called the God of Shinobi. That`s a fairly large title on itself.


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Dec 13, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> Oh really now?


That's the freak of the week right there. Gianna Michaels.


----------



## Geralt of Rivia (Dec 13, 2012)

Turrin said:


> I think Hashirama is the strongest, but I'm going to wait till we see more from Prime Hiruzen & Minato, to be 100% sure.



Why do you think Prime Minato or Hiruzen are getting any more panel time? I don't see a likely scenario.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Dec 13, 2012)

Blaze Release said:


> This is Hiruzen at 69


Yeah and it's Orochimaru _with_ immortal Hashirama and Tobirama.





CyberianGinseng said:


> That's the freak of the week right there. Gianna Michaels.


Yeah i know i googled it. But reps to you.


----------



## SageEnergyMode (Dec 13, 2012)

Listen, I think Minato was the strongest of the Hokage, but no way in hell are you going to find many shinobi that exist in the modern shinobi world, or that have been shown since his death, that would somehow walk all over a shinobi at Hiruzen's level.

Hell, I don't even entirely feel the current Madara would somehow have a complete walk in the park against Hiruzen, even though I can certainly admit that I just see plenty chance for Madara to prove simply too overwhelming an opponent to a certain point, but Hiruzen, I'm absolutely convinced, would still be incredibly impressive all the same.

People don't seem to properly take into consideration a ninja's intelligence and raw skill level into account nearly as much as they should when they are considering the strength of a ninja, and it's just massively, massively flawed. Kishi writes this manga a certain way where he doesn't feel he has to go well out of his way and create way overthetop feats to send a very clear message about the strength of the shinobi in question. What he does instead is he just sets up a fight, sets the circumstances of that fight, and then he has it play out in an obviously convenient enough way, so as to not have a particular ninja get beat on too badly. 

The very fact that Kishimoto setup a fight that involved Orochimaru, Hashirama AND Tobirama all teamed up against Hiruzen alone, and in a situation where Hiruzen was unable to escape from within the confines of the defined combat area, and Hiruzen under those circumstances performed as impressively as he did, is a clear indication from Kishimoto that Hiruzen is hardly a second fiddle to most ninjas. He's one of the strongest shinobi to ever live, and this is a big part of the reason he made sure to tell us that Hiruzen had the reputation as the strongest of the currently reigning kage. None of the other kage from this war, as impressive as they may be, are in Hiruzen's league.


----------



## The Prodigy (Dec 13, 2012)

CyberianGinseng said:


> That's the freak of the week right there. Gianna Michaels.



damn you grrrrr 



Closet Pervert said:


> Yeah and it's Orochimaru _with_ immortal Hashirama and Tobirama.Yeah i know i googled it. But reps to you.



happy fapping CP


----------



## AvengeRpro (Dec 13, 2012)

Olympian said:


> Maybe. But Hiruzen is also called the God of Shinobi. That`s a fairly large title on itself.



By iruka at the beginning of part1. Iruka.

Hashirama would have roflstomped kinkaku/ginkaku and the 20 fodders. Most probably minato could as well.

And hiruzen died fighting orochimaru, who got ridiculed lots of times by now. Dying on a suicide bombing mission is not an achievement, even less so if the opponent leaves.

edit: and controlling the kyuubi, well hashirama for once (a direct comparison) and all uchihas that have a 3 tomoe sharingan, not to mention naruto (with some support).


----------



## Samehadaman (Dec 13, 2012)

Not to get into the Kage business, but Hiruzen didn't exacly get stomped by the Kyuubi... His fighting style isn't ideal to fight a Tailed Beast, unlike Minato and his teleports or Hashirama with mokuton. We all know matchups matter, just because Hiruzen isn't first choice for a Godzilla like monster compared to Minato or Hashirama it doesn't mean against Kage level shinobi he isn't as dangerous or more than the other two.

Nothing was shown of Kurama hurting Hiruzen, or doing anything against him really. Hiruzen wainted for Minato because he could teleport him away, it was safer and more efficient than large scale battle jutsus, they were right in the village, even if Hiruzen had some massive technique that turned the ground to mud and ignited it in fire, to try to halt the beast, he couldn't use it in that location. And Hiruzen also knew the Reaper Seal as we know... In the anime they actually show him shoving Kurama outside the city walls using the extended adamantine staff. In short, Hiruzen had trouble getting the tailed beast out of the city, but he wasn't beaten by it.
And Kurama did kill Minato so nobody quite "owned" Kurama...

As for that being Hiruzen prime, no freaking way. Firstly, age. Secondly, Hokages don't nominate replacements in their prime, infact the one and only Kage we have seen deliberatly stepping down was Hiruzen. Onoki didn't quit. All the Raikages, Tsuchikages, Mizukages and Kazekages we have seen replaced had died. 
This clearly indicates Hiruzen wasn't at prime, Minato was still young, he was there to stay, and there was no reason to hurry things otherwise.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Dec 13, 2012)

Prodigy94 said:


> damn you grrrrr


Lol i already googled the image and it says her name in the gif you posted. I don't think i like her anyway.


----------



## AvengeRpro (Dec 13, 2012)

Samehadaman said:


> Not to get into the Kage business, but Hiruzen didn't exacly get stomped by the Kyuubi... His fighting style isn't ideal to fight a Tailed Beast, unlike Minato and his teleports or Hashirama with mokuton. We all know matchups matter, just because Hiruzen isn't first choice for a Godzilla like monster compared to Minato or Hashirama it doesn't mean against Kage level shinobi he isn't as dangerous or more than the other two.
> 
> Nothing was shown of Kurama hurting Hiruzen, or doing anything against him really. Hiruzen wainted for Minato because he could teleport him away, it was safer and more efficient than large scale battle jutsus, they were right in the village, even if Hiruzen had some massive technique that turned the ground to mud and ignited it in fire, to try to halt the beast, he couldn't use it in that location. And Hiruzen also knew the Reaper Seal as we know... In the anime they actually show him shoving Kurama outside the city walls using the extended adamantine staff. In short, Hiruzen had trouble getting the tailed beast out of the city, but he wasn't beaten by it.
> And Kurama did kill Minato so nobody quite "owned" Kurama...
> ...



The village was practically destroyed, lots of villagers died that day and the kyuubi was in the middle of konoha. That means hiruzen wasn't "waiting" but getting defeated.

As I said, we know that hiruzen fought in 3 battles in 3 completely different eras. First one was when he was designated hokage, in which he lost (ran away from kinkaku/ginkaku). If you don't believe that time was his prime, then there's a second one in which he stomped by the kyuubi (10 years before his death and at a very close age to what jiraiya had when he fought pain), and a third one in which he couldn't scratch orochimaru without suicide bombing.

3 defeats, 3 different eras, 3 opponents that were defeated afterwards by ino-shika-cho (1, prime hiruzen), lots of characters (2, as I mentioned on #581. That's his prime or 1) and itachi (third occasion, with 2 one panels).


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## Samehadaman (Dec 13, 2012)

AvengeRpro said:


> By iruka at the beginning of part1. Iruka.



Hiruzen's title comes from more than one place in the Manga and on the Databook, you may argue the best Kage but the nickname is as canon as it gets.



AvengeRpro said:


> And hiruzen died fighting orochimaru, who got ridiculed lots of times by now. Dying on a suicide bombing mission is not an achievement, even less so if the opponent leaves.



And Hashirama. And Tobirama. 
Besides Orochimaru was never ridiculed. He lost to Sasuke in his deathbed (sasuke said he wouldn't be able to do it if he wasn't weakned) and he lost to Itachi, one of the most powerfull characters in the series.
And Minato also suicide bombed. 

I'm not saying Hiruzen is the strongest Kage, I'm just saying implying him weak is ridiculous by any standard.


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## Samehadaman (Dec 13, 2012)

AvengeRpro said:


> As I said, we know that hiruzen fought in 3 battles in 3 completely different eras. First one was when he was designated hokage, in which he lost (ran away from kinkaku/ginkaku).



Where did this nonsense come from. Hiruzen was ordered to leave, he didn't fight.

And Kinkaku/Ginkaku weren't in the group that killed Tobirama.
They were stated to have almost killed him... On an attempted coup, with the second Raikage also present. Hiruzen wasn't there.
The Kinkaku Force was a group of loyal Kumo ninja, despite the name the Gold and Silver Brothers weren't there as they had already tried to kill their Kage and Tobirama, thus it's certain they already died or turned missing nin. And Hiruzen didn't fight!

And for christ sake are you seriously saying the Third Hokage, student of Hashirama and Tobirama, teacher of the three legendary Sannin, is weaker than 3 chuunin (Ino-Shika-Cho)?
I can't even argue that because it's so profoundly silly.
*The link to Kinkaku and Ginkaku doesn't exist! they never fought!*


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## AvengeRpro (Dec 13, 2012)

My point is not that he is weak. I'm just saying we saw prime hiruzen twice and he lost on both occasions, and those opponents were defeated afterwards by not top tier characters. 

That's why hiruzen cannot be the strongest hokage by any means whatsoever. That title has to go to hashirama, no question.

edit: and regarding #586, he accepted to run away from 20 jounins in a 7 man group. Cmon, hashirama trashes those.


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## Samehadaman (Dec 13, 2012)

AvengeRpro said:


> edit: and regarding #586, he accepted to run away from 20 jounins in a 7 man group. Cmon, hashirama trashes those.



We don't have info. They were stated to be the finest of their village, and jounins we have seen in the current era can include Kakashi, Gai, Darui, Kitsuchi, Choza + Inoichi + Shikaku, Kankuro, Temari, Dodai, Chojuro, Hiashi, Neji, Yamato, Asuma, Kurenai, Bee, etc. A young third raikage would be there aswell.
They could be fodders, or they could be S ranks. Anyone not a Kage is a jounin, even the 3 Sannin (had they not received that special title), would be jounin. Before they defected, Itachi, Kisame, Zabuza, Deidara and Sasori would be jounins... It wasn't one, it was *20*.
We just don't know. Besides, those were the old days, the days where horrible things happened, people followed orders...


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 13, 2012)

Samehadaman, I will agree with your argument on one key point. Matchups do matter, they really and truly do, and just because Hiruzen isn't as well suited to battling a gigantic monster such as the Kyuubi as Hashirama or even Minato might be, it doesn't mean that he's significantly weaker than either of those two. I also do indeed believe that Hiruzen has some pretty large scale and impressive techniques that he could have, and possibly did, use on some level to combat the Kyuubi on that night.

And even if he didn't, you would understand why he maybe didn't feel doing such a thing under the circumstances were appropriate. They were after all fighting in the middle of the village he loves so dearly. It isn't exactly an ideal free for all warzone where you can just entirely throw caution to the wind and let loose. That said, I think Minato is the best of them all, I really and truly do. That's the impression that I've gotten from Kishimoto, and I don't feel any of the new hype Hashirama has received, has somehow invalidated that general impression. People can't only judge power based on flashy, hyper destructive techniques. Sometimes power is showcased in the most unlikely of ways. 

Obito's unbelievable intangibility technique and his other impressive space-time abilities, as well as Minato's unbelievable display of capabilities, particularly in the space-time ninjutsu realm, are true examples of power from incredibly powerful shinobi. That said, as powerful as Obito is, as skilled as he is, Kishimoto wanted us to know that Minato is even better. I also don't feel anything I've seen changes this simple fact. Minato is a ninja shown plenty capable of taking on both Killer Bee and the Raikage at exactly the same time, and doing so with an incredible appearance of ease.

*Hiruzen was not called the god of shinobi -- He was called a ninja god. Minor difference, but I just wanted that corrected.*


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## αce (Dec 13, 2012)

> Minato is a ninja shown plenty capable of taking on both Killer Bee and  the Raikage at exactly the same time, and doing so with an incredible  appearance of ease.



Okay, to be fair Madara not only took on Oonoki and Muu simultaneously - he wasn't trying and still stomped them into the floor. Now imagine him trying, bloodlusted _and_ with the Kyuubi. 

:sanji

And we all know who his superior was.


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## The Prodigy (Dec 13, 2012)

Closet Pervert said:


> Lol i already googled the image and it says her name in the gif you posted. I don't think i like her anyway.





I can't believe...... those standards dayum


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## Blaze Release (Dec 14, 2012)

"*The deciding factor* for life and death in the fight between the sandaime and orochimaru is AGE".It follows by saying "If only the third were 10 years younger the outcome could have been different"

Implying that at 59 Hiruzen could've defeated orochimaru and his 2 edo's and even at 59 that is NOT Hiruzen's prime. He didn't do two bad of a job though at 69.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 14, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Okay, to be fair Madara not only took on Oonoki and Muu simultaneously - he wasn't trying and still stomped them into the floor. Now imagine him trying, bloodlusted _and_ with the Kyuubi.
> 
> :sanji
> 
> And we all know who his superior was.



The same is true for Minato against Bee and A. Minato didn't really seem all that serious. He appeared as if he was coasting against Bee and A, but still had the upper hand.

It was also pretty clear that neither Bee nor A felt as if they were stronger than Minato. In A's own words, he felt Minato was a man who would never be surpassed. That speaks volumes about his strength, and it's also a bit of an indication that, even though Hiruzen was considered to be stronger than all the kage from the other villages, Minato was largely still seen as having surpassed Hiruzen.


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 15, 2012)

*Oh Really?*



Closet Pervert said:


> Lol i already googled the image and it says her name in the gif you posted. *I don't think i like her anyway.*


You would if she were home alone with you right now and she sucked the skin off your dick from across the room. Your response would then be:


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## The World (Dec 15, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Okay, to be fair Madara not only took on Oonoki and Muu simultaneously - he wasn't trying and still stomped them into the floor. Now imagine him trying, bloodlusted _and_ with the Kyuubi.
> 
> :sanji
> 
> And we all know who his superior was.



You do realize that Madara is a Kabuto-amped, Hashirama empowered, insta-regenerating edo tensei right?


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## The World (Dec 15, 2012)




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## Hasan (Dec 15, 2012)

Is it just me or Minato > Hashirama rests solely upon the argument that the latter was defeated by Sarutobi using "his jutsu"? You can kill Hashirama with a kunai as well. It's equally effective in killing as Shiki Fuujin is. The problem, however, lies in individual's skill. 



SageEnergyMode said:


> I still get so annoyed by people misinterpreting what Iruka said. I don't mean to sound insulting, but the comprehension by most fans has been really terrible on that statement.
> 
> Iruka DID not say that the Third Hokage was stronger than all Hokage, including the Fourth Hokage. In fact, the Fourth Hokage is the ONLY Hokage explicitly left out of the comparison by Iruka's statements. What is my proof for this?
> 
> ...



No. That statement is very clear in terms of the message, it conveys. Iruka wasn't talking about some mythical prime Sarutobi; just that *"Sandaime is strongest of all the Hokage"*. His choice of words, however, gave an impression that Sarutobi was dead (when he was standing right beside). Hence the (don't-speak-in-past-tense) joke.

Whether or not the statement holds any longer, the words chosen to describe him ("history's strongest") certainly put him above Hashirama and Minato. I don't think anyone has ever questioned what it meant; they have just questioned its validity.





SageEnergyMode said:


> *Hiruzen was not called the god of shinobi -- He was called a ninja god. Minor difference, but I just wanted that corrected.*



The term ("Shinobi no Kami") is used for both Rikudou Sennin and Sarutobi. I gather you are trying to say that Sarutobi's moniker is different from the Sennin's? It's not.


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## Samehadaman (Dec 15, 2012)

Well, they are all fighting in the belly of the Shinigami right? Instead of arguing we should develop a jutsu to summon the Shinigami, and ask him to give us the "battle log" for those four.


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## Danzio (Dec 15, 2012)

AvengeRpro said:


> *By iruka at the beginning of part1. Iruka.*





AvengeRpro said:


> *By iruka at the beginning of part1. Iruka.*



Please read the manga. It'd make things much more easier for everybody....

So, Iruka gave/called Hiruzen the  "Shinobi God" moniker, eh?


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## αce (Dec 15, 2012)

> You do realize that Madara is a Kabuto-amped, Hashirama empowered, insta-regenerating edo tensei right?



And you do realize that I was talking about Madara when he was alive during Konoha's fouding, right?
:sanji


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## ?_Camorra_? (Dec 15, 2012)

People will be mad when Minato's jutsu arsenal get retconed again and also when "That jutsu" gets introduced  Till then lett the Hashirama and Madara bandwagoners have their time


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## αce (Dec 15, 2012)

Except "that jutsu", which probably doesn't even exist, didn't belong to Minato anyways. And if you think Minato or Hiruzen are getting fights again you have a terrible sense of how long this manga is going to last.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Dec 15, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Except "that jutsu", which probably doesn't even exist, didn't belong to Minato anyways. And if you think Minato or Hiruzen are getting fights again you have a terrible sense of how long this manga is going to last.



Aint it strange that Minato was known for his sealing jutsus and we got to see only two sealing jutsus from him ? We never got to see a bloodlusted Minato with 100% killing intent. 
According to Jiraiya "That jutsu" was left from Minato for Naruto to complete at some point after gaining control over Kurama's chakra. 
The fact that it is introduced after such power ups as Rinnegan,EMS, Mokuton.......etc should tell you its going to be the most hax thing ever.
Never doubt Minato, i remember back in the day when people use to say that Tobi owned Minato and look how it turned out.

But we shall see


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## shintebukuro (Dec 15, 2012)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Aint it strange that Minato was known for his sealing jutsus and we got to see only two sealing jutsus from him ? We never got to see a bloodlusted Minato with 100% killing intent.
> According to Jiraiya "That jutsu" was left from Minato for Naruto to complete at some point after gaining control over Kurama's chakra.
> The fact that it is introduced after such power ups as Rinnegan,EMS, Mokuton.......etc should tell you its going to be the most hax thing ever.
> Never doubt Minato, i remember back in the day when people use to say that Tobi owned Minato and look how it turned out.
> ...



Minato didn't have "that jutsu." That's why he wants Naruto to complete it.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Dec 15, 2012)

Blaze Release said:


> "*The deciding factor* for life and death in the fight between the sandaime and orochimaru is AGE".It follows by saying "If only the third were 10 years younger the outcome could have been different"
> 
> Implying that at 59 Hiruzen could've defeated orochimaru and his 2 edo's and even at 59 that is NOT Hiruzen's prime. He didn't do two bad of a job though at 69.



No.

It's referring that if Hiruzen were 10 years younger he would have been able to extract and seal Orochimaru's soul.

Also, Orochimaru was using Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama to toy with Hiruzen: He was playing with fire and burned himself.

Shiki Fūjin GG 

it doesn't mean: Old Hiruzen>Edo Tobirama and Edo Hashirama.

Prime Hiruzen>Hashirama
Prime Hiruzen>Tobirama 

Hiruzen was able to counter all their techniques.


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## αce (Dec 15, 2012)

^Countered all their techniques? You mean the half assed ones right? If you don't think Hashirama was nerfed you aren't reading this manga properly.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Dec 15, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Minato didn't have "that jutsu." That's why he wants Naruto to complete it.



How the hell can he not have a jutsu that he wants Naruto to complete ? Makes no sense.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Dec 15, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> ^Countered all their techniques? You mean the half assed ones right? If you don't think Hashirama was nerfed you aren't reading this manga properly.



Hiruzen was able to counter Hashirama's Wood Release
Hiruzen was able to counter Tobirama's Water Release
Hiruzen was able to caught Tobirama and Hashirama in Bringer of Darkness
Hiruzen can most likely counter Edo Tensei before they're completely summoned.

Edo Tobirama & Edo Hashirama were in their Prime: both of them have the Body of Rikudou Sennin.

You can said Edo Tobirama & Edo Hashirama jutsus weren't at 100% full power but Hiruzen was in his 69 years old.

Prime Hiruzen>Hashirama
Prime Hiruzen>Tobirama

FACT.


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## Vaeny (Dec 15, 2012)

Naruto and Sasuke, even with all their powerups, still seem to be nowhere close to Madara and Hashirama's level.

Currently, that is. Then again, the Madara they're fighting right now is stronger than the Madara that Hashirama fought, since Madara didn't have Hashirama's cells, powers AND the Rinnegan.


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## αce (Dec 15, 2012)

> Hiruzen was able to counter Hashirama's Wood Release



Yes, other than this, this and this.



> Hiruzen was able to counter Tobirama's Water Release



Tobirama was called the best Suiton user and yet fodder can replicate that feat now.
I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit on that one.



> Hiruzen was able to caught Tobirama and Hashirama in Bringer of Darkness



Yes, after Hashirama refused to use his bunshins and all the other things we know he is capable of.


> Hiruzen can most likely counter Edo Tensei before they're completely summoned.



sure.



> Edo Tobirama & Edo Hashirama were in their Prime: both of them have the Body of Rikudou Sennin.



Yet Hashirama didn't display any of the feats that Edo Madara credited him with.



> You can said Edo Tobirama & Edo Hashirama jutsu weren't at 100% full power but Hiruzen was in his 69 years old.



Hashirama wasn't even at 50%.



> Prime Hiruzen>Hashirama
> Prime Hiruzen>Tobirama
> 
> FACT.
















I mean, this is pretty pathetic. Flower Tree World, on it's first use, forced five Kage to take flight or else they would have been demolished casually. That's a single fucking technique that Hashi can pull out whenever he feels like. Yet the most he did against Hiruzen was make Mokuton roots that weren't even equivalent to the low end abilities that Madara was using.

You'd have to have a 2nd grade reading level to have a hard time comprehending just how weak Edo Hashirama was compared to what we know he can do via Madara. It was a combination of Orochimaru having a bad Edo Tensei and him having the Hokage toy with Hiruzen.

Hiruzen couldn't even combat the Kyuubi 12 years earlier without riding Minato's sac. Yet Hashirama has a *bijuu level* wood summon. If you're telling me that Hashirama wasn't nerfed after seeing a wood dragon tackle the Kyuubi you're beyond reasoning with. That dragon would have killed Hiruzen _casually. _


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## αce (Dec 15, 2012)

I'm geniunely surprised people are even bringing up the Hiruzen fight anymore.

I assumed even the more intense Hiruzen fans would have dropped the subject after Madara came in wanking Hashirama and throwing Kage slaying Mokuton's all over the place. Please, children, let's not pretend that Kishi didn't change his mind.


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## shintebukuro (Dec 15, 2012)

?_Camorra_? said:


> How the hell can he not have a jutsu that he wants Naruto to complete ? Makes no sense.



He wants Naruto to complete it because he couldn't. Like Rasengan.


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## αce (Dec 15, 2012)

That jutsu was mentioned in the same context as the Kyuubi and Minato giving the Kyuubi to Naruto for a specific reason. This isn't that hard to understand.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Dec 15, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Yes, other than this, this and this.




Prime Hiruzen can use all Jutsus in Konoha, has mastered over 1000 jutsus and his extendable summon(hard as the diamond) can protect him against any attack.





♠Ace♠ said:


> Tobirama was called the best Suiton user and yet fodder can replicate that feat now.
> I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit on that one.



No.

Mei did it and she's not fodder.



♠Ace♠ said:


> Yes, after Hashirama refused to use his bunshins and all the other things we know he is capable of.



Yeah and we know Prime Hiruzen can use Kage Bunshin no Jutsu and All Jutsus in Konoha.





♠Ace♠ said:


> Yet Hashirama didn't display any of the feats that Edo Madara credited him with.



I was talking that they were in their Prime Form/body.




♠Ace♠ said:


> Hashirama wasn't even at 50%.



And Hiruzen wasn't even at 10%



♠Ace♠ said:


> I mean, this is pretty pathetic. Flower Tree World, on it's first use, forced five Kage to take flight or else they would have been demolished casually. That's a single fucking technique that Hashi can pull out whenever he feels like. Yet the most he did against Hiruzen was make Mokuton roots that weren't even equivalent to the low end abilities that Madara was using.
> 
> You'd have to have a 2nd grade reading level to have a hard time comprehending just how weak Edo Hashirama was compared to what we know he can do via Madara. It was a combination of Orochimaru having a bad Edo Tensei and him having the Hokage toy with Hiruzen.



I said Edo Tobirama & Edo Hashirama jutsus weren't at 100% and that they were toying with Old Hiruzen.



♠Ace♠ said:


> Hiruzen couldn't even combat the Kyuubi 12 years earlier without riding Minato's sac. Yet Hashirama has a *bijuu level* wood summon. If you're telling me that Hashirama wasn't nerfed after seeing a wood dragon tackle the Kyuubi you're beyond reasoning with. That dragon would have killed Hiruzen _casually. _



Hiruzen was able to smash Kurama to the borders of the village and he probably tanked a Bijūdama from the Kyuubi with his Adamantine Staff.

Hiruzen was fighting face to face against the Kyuubi without any Kekkei Genkai. He clearly wasn't using his 1000 jutsus and all jutsus in Konoha.


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## αce (Dec 15, 2012)

> Hiruzen was able to smash Kurama to the borders of the village and he  probably tanked a Bijūdama from the Kyuubi with his Adamantine Staff.




:sanji
Okay I'm outta here


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## Punished Pathos (Dec 15, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> :sanji
> Okay I'm outta here



I'll put the nail in the coffin.

Hiruzen struggled with Orochimaru for an hour via Shiki Fijin with 1/3 of his soul left.
That's godly stamina for someone past his prime. :blindhiruzen


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## Mistshadow (Dec 15, 2012)

we all know the strongest hokage is naruto.




but its saroutobi for now.


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## Punished Pathos (Dec 15, 2012)

Prime Hiruzen bitchslaps Naruto with dat power pole.


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## Bontakun (Dec 15, 2012)

So... just dropping by to say one should not use "debate" and "finally over" in the same sentence, if you're in KL.

I chuckle every time I see this thread getting bumped.

Oh and dat Cammy ass in OP's set 

BTW Edo Madara obviously soloes all kages. If (Shodaime=Madara)=Edo Madara that means Shodaime is the strongest. But Madara < Edo Madara therefore it's impossible to know who's the strongest Hokage. IMO.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 15, 2012)

Actually, there's no proof that Minato didn't complete "that jutsu." It could just be the case that Naruto, with the Kyuubi's power, can take that jutsu to heights Minato never could.

It's also possible that it's a jutsu Minato never had the chance or ability to complete as well, but we won't know until Kishi shows us.


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## Blaze Release (Dec 15, 2012)

Mickie said:


> No.
> 
> It's referring that if Hiruzen were 10 years younger he would have been able to extract and seal Orochimaru's soul.
> 
> ...




There are many ways to translate it however if you read the quote again and full understand it, its saying they wouldve traded places, with orochimaru dead and Hiruzen alive


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 15, 2012)

Mickie said:


> Yeah and we know Prime Hiruzen can use Kage Bunshin no Jutsu and All Jutsus in Konoha.


Really?

Why didn't he use FTG? Or Kagemane no Jutsu? Or Mind Body Disturbance or multi-target soul transfer? Any of those jutsu would've come in real handy against Oro and the Hokage.

He didn't use them because he *doesn't* know ALL jutsu in Konoha. Obviously, that was just hype.


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## yrvd86 (Dec 15, 2012)

I'm sorry but I don't think this will ever end. In my opinion the strongest hokage is sarutobi in his prime. Please seriously consider this, he went against an edo tensei first and second hokage when he was old as dirt and STILL managed to beat them (irregardless of how). And he beat them more then once as he first got them with the explosive tags. We now see how strong madara is but I can only imagine that hashirima with edo tensei is just as strong if not stronger. And if your argument is that he did not use half of the jutsu he should have been able to use, you have to consider the fact that kishimoto had not given him those powers yet. He was called the professor for a reason, take you to school all day in his prime lol.


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## The Prodigy (Dec 15, 2012)

Still gonna go out on a limb and say, kishi forogt about "that" jutsu, like he did about Itachi having a girlfriend


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## Rios (Dec 15, 2012)

What are you talking about, "that" jutsu is the ultimate sexy jutsu Naruto was about to show to Konohamaru but got interrupted by Sakura.


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## Closet Pervert (Dec 15, 2012)

AvengeRpro said:


> By iruka at the beginning of part1. Iruka.
> 
> Hashirama would have roflstomped kinkaku/ginkaku and the 20 fodders. Most probably minato could as well.
> 
> And hiruzen died fighting orochimaru, who got ridiculed lots of times by now.


Iruka didn't state an opinion of his own. He stated a fact that Hiruzen was known by people in general as the strongest.

Orochimaru didn't have Edo Tensei when he was ridiculed. Most of the time, he didn't have much health and sometimes hands, either.


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## Hasan (Dec 15, 2012)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Really?
> 
> Why didn't he use FTG? Or Kagemane no Jutsu? Or Mind Body Disturbance or multi-target soul transfer? Any of those jutsu would've come in real handy against Oro and the Hokage.
> 
> He didn't use them because he *doesn't* know ALL jutsu in Konoha. Obviously, that was just hype.



It's only a generalization. The jutsu which 'can' be learned ? he knew them. Why didn't he use them? I suppose he made it clear that Shiki Fuujin was the only way he could defeat them. Otherwise Orochimaru was quite shocked to see the _Professor_ not using any ninjutsu. You could take it as him 'spamming ninjutsu' if he was up to it.


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## Blaze Release (Dec 15, 2012)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Really?
> 
> Why didn't he use FTG? Or Kagemane no Jutsu? Or Mind Body Disturbance or multi-target soul transfer? Any of those jutsu would've come in real handy against Oro and the Hokage.
> 
> He didn't use them because he *doesn't* know ALL jutsu in Konoha. Obviously, that was just hype.



No. By all the jutsu in Konoha it is not talking about individual techniques, either those developed by a ninja like hirashin/raikiri or hiden techniques or even kg techniques. By jutsu's of konoha its referring to the tons of scrolls that was left by Hashirama/Tobirama. Those are the jutsu's of konoha, or rather the jutsu's of the senju clan who were hailed as a clan with a thousand skills


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 15, 2012)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Really?
> 
> Why didn't he use FTG? Or Kagemane no Jutsu? Or Mind Body Disturbance or multi-target soul transfer? Any of those jutsu would've come in real handy against Oro and the Hokage.
> 
> He didn't use them because he *doesn't* know ALL jutsu in Konoha. Obviously, that was just hype.



I figured it was time we put this misconception to rest. It was never said that Hiruzen knew every jutsu in all of Konoha. It was said he was nicknamed the professor for, at one time, knowing and being able to perform *all existing KONOHA jutsu.*

Each of the major villages have their own unique jutsu that are designated as unique to their villages. By village jutsu, it doesn't mean the technique and abilities of every single ninja inside your village. It simply means the jutsu that have come to define your village, such as the way the Hidden Mist jutsu identifies with the Hidden Mist Village.

For example, Kisame once referred to the water clone jutsu that Kakashi used in front of him as his village's (the Hidden Mist's) jutsu. In other words, Hiruzen didn't know how to perform every ninja's techniques inside Konoha, but there was a time when he knew all existing Konoha village jutsu.

Want to hear some Konoha Village Jutsu?

Shadow Clone Technique.
Multiple Shadow Clone Technique.
Shadow Shuriken Technique.
Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique.

He was also a fire element user, and Konoha exists in the land of fire, which means there's a pretty good chance that there are some fire jutsu that are likely also designated as Konoha Village Jutsu as well. And I think there are some Konoha specific Genjutsu techniques, too.

I think the Genjutsu Kurenai used against Kisame and Itachi is also a Konoha Village jutsu, as well since they say it's a Genjutsu passed down through the generations.



There's no doubt hundreds of village specific jutsu, and we obviously haven't seen them all, and will never see them all, but I think the general point is for us to all accept that they do indeed exist, and Hiruzen was a master of all such jutsu that existed within the Konoha village at one time. We know Kakashi copied over 1,000 jutsu, but we haven't seen anywhere close to that many from him, but we know they exist and that he has them, or perhaps that's just one of those instances where legends and information spreads about a ninja that aren't entirely true? One way or the other, I choose to believe that it's true.

Some of Rock Lee's taijutsu moves are likely Konoha jutsu as well. Then there's that Konoha specific sword technique that involves the shadow clone technique, called the Leaf Dance of the Crescent moon, or something like that.


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 15, 2012)

In case you missed it, I was being sarcastic. Obviously, he can't use those jutsu.

In most debates I've been in people aren't allowed to bring up Minato's element that we know he had or the fact that he certainly seemed to think he could put up a barrier capable of holding the 9-tails. These aren't allowed because we've never actually seen him use these. 

Hiruzen can do exactly what we've seen him do. ANYTHING else is speculation.


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## SageEnergyMode (Dec 15, 2012)

Well, we know Minato can put up a barrier, because he said he could, and he was about to do just that. We know Minato had SOME kind of element because Kakashi confirmed that he did.

How he would go about setting up the barrier, or what elemental manipulation he may possess, we simply don't know, but he definitely had them in his arsenal. In fact, there's a possibility that his space-time ninjutsu abilities were apart of his nature manipulation.


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## yrvd86 (Dec 15, 2012)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Really?
> 
> Why didn't he use FTG? Or Kagemane no Jutsu? Or Mind Body Disturbance or multi-target soul transfer? Any of those jutsu would've come in real handy against Oro and the Hokage.
> 
> He didn't use them because he *doesn't* know ALL jutsu in Konoha. Obviously, that was just hype.



He may know all jutsu in Konoha but that doesn't mean he has the elemental affinity to use them. You also have to consider that he had very low chakra reserves since he was old. He couldn't waste it doing a bunch of different jutsu, especially against the first and second.


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## UzumakiMAAKU (Dec 15, 2012)

The new guys ain't got shit on Hashi. Had he been present at the Kage's with Madara, Obito would be on his own right now.


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## αce (Dec 15, 2012)

> Actually, there's no proof that Minato didn't complete "that jutsu." It  could just be the case that Naruto, with the Kyuubi's power, can take  that jutsu to heights Minato never could.



There's also no proof he didn't have a talking purple turtle as his first pet.
Burden of proof is on you to prove that he did have it - not just assume he did because he's Minato.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Dec 15, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> There's also no proof he didn't have a talking purple turtle as his first pet.



I'll have you know that Fido was a talking _magenta_ turtle, and he was his second pet. But as usual, no one bothers to remember Arcadia the flying zebra.


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## Shinryu (Dec 16, 2012)

the fact that madara used hashiramas cell to control the current juubi meant his power had to be insane


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## The World (Dec 17, 2012)

Vae said:


> *Naruto and Sasuke, even with all their powerups, still seem to be nowhere close to Madara and Hashirama's level.*
> 
> Currently, that is. Then again, the Madara they're fighting right now is stronger than the Madara that Hashirama fought, since Madara didn't have Hashirama's cells, powers AND the Rinnegan.



Nowhere close? wut

Naruto slapped away 5 bijuu bombs.

Might not be on the same level as Madara currently, but he's still pretty damn close.


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## The World (Dec 17, 2012)

Rios said:


> What are you talking about, "that" jutsu is the ultimate sexy jutsu Naruto was about to show to Konohamaru but got interrupted by Sakura.



That jutsu is buttsex with Hinata and Sakura at the same time


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## Senjuclan (Dec 19, 2012)

Last two chapters made it pretty clear that the argument is over. The guy who can control bijuu and had several of them under his control is boss. Dat Minato dude is boss too. So, forget the rest (except Tobirama of course).


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Dec 19, 2012)

Minato is obviously the strongest Kage... 

For one reason he would be able to easily take on any other kage...


His Speed!!! There is no possible way for any of the kage to possible compete with Minato when he could kill them in literally an instant...

1rst Hokage: Overrated IMO... He barely won a fight against madara who was merely fighting to gain hashirama's DNA with is wife's assistance and still could not kill madara... Madara lived, completed his mission to take hashi's DNA and went on to continue his plans... 
IMO... If hashirama's goal was to kill madara uchiha then he lost because madara obviously got what he wanted and did not even lose an eye either...

2nd Hokage: Obviously fodder.... Has a water jutsu that is created where there is no water... SO what, kakashi who doesn't even have an affinity for water element can do the same... and Tobirama also created an incomplete edo tensai and has some kind of time space jutsu... Big woop...
Last i heard, the shinning bro's of the cloud nearly killed tobirama and dariu took them on and hes just a jounin...

3rd Hokage: Is strong as a more technical shinobi like kakashi, however, is in no way stronger then even hashirama... He can use shadow clones, fire style and earth style... SO!!! Hiruzen could not even beat Orochimaru and itachi did that shit in seconds... Hiruzen is overrated because he fought some old edo kage's who were merely toying with hiruzen just as Oro was...
No way he could beat MInato in a fight... It would last a second before minato blitzed hiruzen...

5th Hokage: She is hard to kill like hashirama would be... But no one has simply tried to remove the head which would obviously be an instant kill even for them... SHe is likely the weakest kage... maybe stronger then tobirama...

IMO... Hashirama would have the only chance of beating minato because he is hard as hell to kill and can use wood jutsu to hide himself... However, hashirama's wood jutsu specilize in immobilizing the enemy which cannot be done with minato who can just reverse summon himself away from any attack of hashirama while placing seals on the wood for more reverse summoning...

In the end, after not being able to kill hashirama with a basic rasengan barrage... I think minato would reverse summon hashirama to another battle field, like far under the ocean where he would drown, or high up in the air so when he fell even he would die... Such is the power of minato who can summon himself an anyone else after gaining their dna or coming in contact with them...

pretty much mInato is the strongest because his speed is too much for any Hokage to possibly track, keep up and land an attack on him... much less defend themselves...


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## Senjuclan (Dec 19, 2012)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Minato is obviously the strongest Kage...
> 
> For one reason he would be able to easily take on any other kage...
> 
> ...



You are overrating speed. Naruto's speed is way above Nagato but he got schooled like a girl by Nagato who can't even move. Raikage is the second fastest man currently but he still got schooled by Uchiha Madara



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> 1rst Hokage: Overrated IMO... He barely won a fight against madara who was merely fighting to gain hashirama's DNA with is wife's assistance and still could not kill madara... Madara lived, completed his mission to take hashi's DNA and went on to continue his plans...
> IMO... If hashirama's goal was to kill madara uchiha then he lost because madara obviously got what he wanted and did not even lose an eye either...



1. Barely winning a fight against a man stronger than five kage, a man whose name alone can cause countries to create an alliance is not too shabby. Who else can boast of that? 
2. Madara told the kages that he fought to the death against Hashirama. Good try though
3. Mito was not in Konoha when they fought because she said herself that she came to Konoha to become a jinchiruki
4. Madara is not Minato or any of the other hokages. So, I don't see how bringing him up helps you make your case for Minato's strength



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> 2nd Hokage: Obviously fodder.... Has a water jutsu that is created where there is no water... SO what, kakashi who doesn't even have an affinity for water element can do the same... and Tobirama also created an incomplete edo tensai and has some kind of time space jutsu... Big woop...
> Last i heard, the shinning bro's of the cloud nearly killed tobirama and dariu took them on and hes just a jounin...



So you are saying that 2 pseudo jins of kyuubi and 18 others could not kill Tobirama and therefore he is fodder. Funny how Kirabi and Ei almost killed Minato. Kirabi could have committed Minato right there and died as well and killed Minato. So, since almost dying to two almost jins and 18 others makes Tobirama fodder, Minato is worse than fodder since he almost died against Kirabi, who was weaker than Kin-Gin back then and Ei



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> 3rd Hokage: Is strong as a more technical shinobi like kakashi, however, is in no way stronger then even hashirama... He can use shadow clones, fire style and earth style... SO!!! Hiruzen could not even beat Orochimaru and itachi did that shit in seconds... Hiruzen is overrated because he fought some old edo kage's who were merely toying with hiruzen just as Oro was...
> No way he could beat MInato in a fight... It would last a second before minato blitzed hiruzen...



I don't care for this scrub, so I won't defend him



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> 5th Hokage: She is hard to kill like hashirama would be... But no one has simply tried to remove the head which would obviously be an instant kill even for them... SHe is likely the weakest kage... maybe stronger then tobirama...



Funny how Madara has tried to cut her in two and succeeded but she did not die from that and her summon can put her back together.  Minato cannot kill her. His rasengan attacks are too weak



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> IMO... Hashirama would have the only chance of beating minato because he is hard as hell to kill and can use wood jutsu to hide himself... However, hashirama's wood jutsu specilize in immobilizing the enemy which cannot be done with minato who can just reverse summon himself away from any attack of hashirama while placing seals on the wood for more reverse summoning...
> 
> In the end, after not being able to kill hashirama with a basic rasengan barrage... I think minato would reverse summon hashirama to another battle field, like far under the ocean where he would drown, or high up in the air so when he fell even he would die... Such is the power of minato who can summon himself an anyone else after gaining their dna or coming in contact with them...



1. Hashirama can rob Minato of his sight with his genjutsu. A blind Minato cannot attack him
2. Mokuton kajukai korin creates pollen that would put Minato to sleep once he inhales them. How is he counter to counter that?
3. Minato cannot reverse summon anyone. What are talking about



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> pretty much mInato is the strongest because his speed is too much for any Hokage to possibly track, keep up and land an attack on him... much less defend themselves...



Hashirama can counter Minato's speed by making Minato unable to see him with his genjutsu. Speed won't help Minato if he can't see. Tobirama has space-time ninjutsu himself, how the heck would he not keep up with Minato? Tsunade can't keep up but she can't be killed either. Minato does not have the firepower. So, that really leaves just Hiruzen

While I agree that Minato is extremely strong, you seriously underrate the other hokages if you think that Minato's speed alone defeats them


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## AvengeRpro (Dec 19, 2012)

Hashirama summons 9tails. Watches tv while minato dies.


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## Vice (Dec 19, 2012)

1. Hashirama
2. Minato
3. Hiruzen (prime)
4. Tobirama




5. Tsunade


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## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 19, 2012)

_Before this thread snowballs anymore, I'm freezing it in place._


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