# tobirama vs itachi stat comparison



## richard lewis (Feb 3, 2014)

Ninjutsu
Offense: tie
Defense: tie
Versatility: itachi
Hand Sign Speed: itachi

Taijutsu
Striking Power: tobirama
Attack Speed: tobirama
Skill: itachi

Genjutsu
Offense: itachi
Resistance: itachi

Physical 
Speed: tobirama
Reflexes: tie
Durability: tobirama
Strength: tobirama

Mental 
Intelligence: tie
Tactics: itachi

Chakra
Reserves: tobirama
Control: tie

Other
Sensing/Tracking: tobirama

Overall
Itachi: 6
Tobirama: 7
Tie: 5


----------



## fior fior (Feb 3, 2014)

*Ninjutsu*
*Offense* - Itachi
*Defense* - Itachi
*Versatility* - Itachi
*Hand Sign Speed* - Itachi

*Taijutsu*
*Striking Power* - Tobirama
*Attack Speed* - Tie
*Skill* - Itachi

*Genjutsu*
*Offense* - Itachi
*Resistance* - Tie

*Physical *
*Speed* - Tobirama
*Reflexes* - Tobirama
*Durability* - Tobirama
*Strength* - Tobirama

*Mental *
*Intelligence* - Tie
*Tactics* - Tobirama

*Chakra*
*Reserves* - Tobirama
*Control* - Tie

*Other*
*Sensing/Tracking* - Tobirama



> *Overall*
> *Itachi* - 6
> *Tobirama* - 8
> *Tie* - 4


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 3, 2014)

Ninjutsu
Offense: tie 
Defense: Itachi
Versatility: itachi
Hand Sign Speed: Tobirama

Taijutsu
Striking Power: tobirama
Attack Speed: tobirama
Skill: itachi

Genjutsu
Offense: itachi
Resistance: itachi

Physical 
Speed: tobirama
Reflexes: tobirama
Durability: tobirama
Strength: tobirama

Mental 
Intelligence: tie
Tactics: itachi

Chakra
Reserves: tobirama
Control: tie

Other
Sensing/Tracking: tobirama

Overall
Itachi: 6
Tobirama: 8
Tie: 4


----------



## Trojan (Feb 3, 2014)

Ninjutsu
Offense: Tobirama. (I don't remember anything that itachi has stronger than Tobirama's explosion tags.)
Defense: itachi perhaps due to his mirror 
Versatility: Tobirama
Hand Sign Speed: Tobirama

Taijutsu
Striking Power: tobirama
Attack Speed: tobirama
Skill: tie

Genjutsu
Offense: itachi
Resistance: itachi

Physical
Speed: tobirama
Reflexes: Tobirama
Durability: tobirama
Strength: tobirama

Mental
Intelligence: Tobirama
Tactics: tobirama

Chakra
Reserves: tobirama
Control: tie

Other
Sensing/Tracking: tobirama

Overall
Itachi: 3
Tobirama: 13
Tie: 2


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

Ninjutsu
Offense: Itachi
Defense: Itachi
Versatility: Itachi has more feats, but they are both probably shinobi with tremendously versatile abilities. I'll give T-dawg the benefit of the doubt and call this a tie.
Hand Sign Speed: Itachi

Taijutsu
Striking Power: No apparent difference
Attack Speed: No apparent difference
Skill: No apparent difference

Genjutsu
Offense: Itachi
Resistance: Itachi, but maybe Tobirama has some special Senju resistance to it

Physical 
Speed: No apparent difference
Reflexes: No apparent difference
Durability: No apparent difference
Strength: No apparent difference

Mental 
Intelligence: Both are extremely intelligent in different ways; for lack of a more nuanced question, tie
Tactics: Again, both seem pretty sharp; Itachi may have the edge here due to his praised insight

Chakra
Reserves: Tobirama
Control: No apparent difference

Other
Sensing/Tracking: Tough to say; Tobirama is a sensor, but that doesn't automatically make him better at tracking, so...no apparent difference

Itachi: 6
Tobirama: 1
Tie: 2
No apparent difference: 9


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

Elia said:


> Ninjutsu
> Offense: Tobirama. (I don't remember anything that itachi has stronger than Tobirama's explosion tags.)



Amaterasu says hi.



> Hand Sign Speed: Tobirama



Tobirama hasn't shown hand sign speed out of the ordinary, much less on par with or faster than Itachi's.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Feb 3, 2014)

Ninjutsu
Offense: Itachi
Defense: Itachi
Versatility: Itachi
Hand Sign Speed: Itachi

Taijutsu
Striking Power: Tobirama
Attack Speed: Tie
Skill: Not enough information out of Tobirama

Genjutsu
Offense: Itachi
Resistance: Itachi

Physical 
Speed: Itachi (FTG is not speed)
Reflexes: Itachi
Durability: Tobirama
Strength: Tobirama

Mental 
Intelligence: Tobirama
Tactics: Tobirama

Chakra
Reserves: Tobirama
Control: Tie

Other
Sensing/Tracking: Tobirama 

Overall
Itachi: 8
Tobirama: 7
Tie: 2
Inconclusive: 1


----------



## Trojan (Feb 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Amaterasu says hi.
> 
> 
> 
> Tobirama hasn't shown hand sign speed out of the ordinary, much less on par with or faster than Itachi's.



- Amatersu is a fodder jutsu in my opinion. @>@
- When he fought Hiruzen he was doing jutsus that's need around 40+ seals with one hand seal. 
or since his fighting style is heavily based on FTG that does not really need hand seals as well. @>@


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

Elia said:


> - Amatersu is a fodder jutsu in my opinion. @>@



That's not really an opinion so much as it is a factually incorrect statement. Amaterasu was regarded as the strongest physical attack by Zetsu, it burned the Hachibi down to a single shape-shifted tentacle, and it was even used on a massive scale to wound the Juubi. Mere explosive tags, no matter how many there are, don't compare with what is effectively magic ninja napalm that incinerates Bijuu.



> - When he fought Hiruzen he was doing jutsus that's need around 40+ seals with one hand seal.
> or since his fighting style is heavily based on FTG that does not really need hand seals as well. @>@



But that says nothing about his seal speed--it just indicates that he has to weave fewer signs than a basic Jonin like Zabuza.

Incidentally, Itachi also performed that Jutsu with a single hand sign and he did it fast enough to blitz Sage Kabuto.

I'm pretty sure Mei also did that Jutsu with one seal; that's not such a big deal for Kage-level ninja.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> That's not really an opinion so much as it is a factually incorrect statement. Amaterasu was regarded as the strongest physical attack by Zetsu, it burned the Hachibi down to a single shape-shifted tentacle, and it was even used on a massive scale to wound the Juubi. Mere explosive tags, no matter how many there are, don't compare with what is effectively magic ninja napalm that incinerates Bijuu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- It failed at the end of the day. Also, even with that, aren't Tobirama's explosion tags going to do
more damage (for some character at least) and wiped them out MUCH faster? 

- O.K, you have a point there. @.@
itachi is faster apparently. @>@


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

Elia said:


> - It failed at the end of the day.



So has Jinton literally every time it's been used.

Plot is no excuse to ignore obvious displays of power and hype.



> Also, even with that, aren't Tobirama's explosion tags going to do
> more damage (for some character at least) and wiped them out MUCH faster?



If you mean kill a normal person faster, then yes.

But Amaterasu achieves the same result after a bit more time.

And if you're talking about fighting Bijuu or ninja with comparable brute power, I would damn sure rather be packing Amaterasu in my moveset, because T-dawg's fireworks are just gonna piss 'em off.


----------



## Ersa (Feb 3, 2014)

Amaterasu's success rate is better then FRS. Yet no one says FRS is a fodder jutsu.

Double standards


----------



## Trojan (Feb 3, 2014)

> =Nikushimi;49718538]So has Jinton literally every time it's been used.
> Plot is no excuse to ignore obvious displays of power and hype.



Not really, the Jinton destroyed one of Hashi's strongest jutsus (that annoying flower)
it also destroyed 25 susanoo + wood clones. It only fails against the Rinnegan. @.@



> But Amaterasu achieves the same result after a bit more time.


a millennial. 


> And if you're talking about fighting Bijuu or ninja with comparable brute power, I would damn sure rather be packing Amaterasu in my moveset, because T-dawg's fireworks are just gonna piss 'em off.



O.K. I'll give you that as well, it could be great against some Bijuus indeed.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Feb 3, 2014)

*Ninjutsu*

Offence: Itachi
Defence: Itachi
Verstility: Itachi
Hand sign speed: Tobirama 

*Taijutsu *

Striking power: Tobirama 
Attack speed: Tobirama
Skill: Itachi

*Genjutsu* 

Offence: Itachi
Defence: Itachi

*Physical *

Speed: Tobirama
Reflexes: Tobirama
Durability: Tobirama 
Strength: Tobirama 

*Mental *

Intelligence: Tobirama 
Tactics: Tie 

Chakra reserves: Tobirama
Control: Tie

*Other *

Sensing/tracking: Tobirama @Nikushima: Tobirama is a sensor and better tracker. Sensing is one of the 3 best ways to track someone, and he has his touching ground with finger technique that helps him get a better understanding of the numbers he is dealing with and act accordingly. 

*Overall*

Itachi: 6
Tobirama: 9
Tie: 2


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> So has Jinton literally every time it's been used.
> 
> *Plot is no excuse to ignore obvious displays of power and hype.*



Jinton has only failed against the rinnegan due to preta 
other than that,, it atomised 25 susanoos,, obliterated madaras wood clones,, destroyed Flower Tree World,,, even wouldve atomised sasuke if it werent for tobi
Jinton is one of the best one shot technique in the manga
i agree with the bold though


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 3, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Amaterasu's success rate is better then FRS. Yet no one says FRS is a fodder jutsu.
> 
> Double standards



loll if we look at success rates than CT is one of the fodder jutsus since it failed twice


----------



## asstonine (Feb 3, 2014)

fior fior said:


> *Ninjutsu*
> *Offense* - Itachi
> *Defense* - Itachi
> *Versatility* - Itachi
> ...



The sickly Itachi that could barely beat hebi sasuke?  The low tier Kage?
The only thing Itachi wins at is genjutsu.  The only other things he could arguably win at is defense, and even that is very very questionable seeing as he can only maintain Susanoo for a minute or two. As far as offense goes, you guys are looking at one skill rather than the whole set!


----------



## asstonine (Feb 3, 2014)

Elia said:


> Ninjutsu
> Offense: Tobirama. (I don't remember anything that itachi has stronger than Tobirama's explosion tags.)
> Defense: itachi perhaps due to his mirror
> Versatility: Tobirama
> ...



The only non-wank post.  Thank you for having a brain, and using it.


----------



## eyeknockout (Feb 3, 2014)

Ninjutsu

Offence: Itachi
Defence: Itachi
Verstility: Itachi
Hand sign speed: itachi

Taijutsu 

Striking power: Tobirama 
Attack speed: itachi
Skill: Itachi

Genjutsu 

Offence: Itachi
Defence: Itachi

Physical 

Speed: Tobirama
Reflexes: itachi
Durability: Tobirama 
Strength: Tobirama 

Mental 

Intelligence: itachi
Tactics: itachi

Chakra reserves: Tobirama
Control: itachi

Other 

Sensing/tracking: Tobirama 

Overall

Itachi: 12
Tobirama: 6
Tie: 0


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Amaterasu's success rate is better then FRS. Yet no one says FRS is a fodder jutsu.
> 
> Double standards



Pretty much.

Or look at Gamarinshou, Mugen Onsa, motherfucking Edo Tensei... They ultimately failed, so they're fodder Jutsu, right? No, that's not how it works.



Elia said:


> Not really, the Jinton destroyed one of Hashi's strongest jutsus (that annoying flower)
> it also destroyed 25 susanoo + wood clones. It only fails against the Rinnegan. @.@



Amaterasu destroyed Sasuke's Katon, burned through the Iwagama's fireproof throat, and torched Nagato's summons.

They both work well on enemy Jutsu, but not when lives are on the line. Plot.



> a millennial.







asstonine said:


> The only non-wank post.  Thank you for having a brain, and using it.



Get out.


----------



## asstonine (Feb 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> Or look at Gamarinshou, Mugen Onsa, motherfucking Edo Tensei... They ultimately failed, so they're fodder Jutsu, right? No, that's not how it works.
> 
> ...



Itachi wanker!
Why are you guys only looking at one jutsu for offense?  Because, Itachi's arsenal sucks, that's why!  His MS is a crutch, and without it he is nothing!

None of this even changes the fact Tobirama would rape Itachi!


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

asstonine said:


> Itachi wanker!
> Why are you guys only looking at one jutsu for offense?  Because, Itachi's arsenal sucks, that's why!  His MS is a crutch, and without it he is nothing!



Aside from the explosive tag Jutsu, Tobirama's known offense consists of exactly one B-Rank Suiton that Itachi can also use, basic Taijutsu, and kunai.

So get out.



> None of this even changes the fact Tobirama would rape Itachi!



Tobirama would be lucky to even beat Itachi.


----------



## Jagger (Feb 3, 2014)

Elia said:


> Not really, the Jinton destroyed one of Hashi's strongest jutsus (that annoying flower)
> it also destroyed 25 susanoo + wood clones. It only fails against the Rinnegan. @.@


And Itachi's Amaterasu destroyed Nagato's Cerberus (one of the most annoying summons so far in the manga) and his bird along with part of his body until Kabuto regained control of his body.

Amaterasu also neutralized Killer Bee  (as he didnt' expect that response from Sasuke) and Sasuke's Katon. It also forced A to cut off his arm.

Jinton hasn't killed anything so far. Madara let himself being hit the first time and he underestimated the Gokage far too much the second one.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Feb 3, 2014)

Ninjutsu:
Itachi: Susanoo + Amaterasu + Yasaka Magatama + crow clones + Uchiha fire techniques

Tobirama: Edo tensei + Sensing abiltiy + high level sutions(supposidly) + FTG

Winner: Draw


Taijutsu
Both incredibly skilled in taijutsu in this catergory however Tobirama might be a tad better

Winner: Tobirama by a small fraction


Genjutsu
Itachi easily takes the win in this department since we lack feats on Tobiramas ability to dispell Genjutsu. However one must think after battling Uchiha for his entire life he must be above average if not top tier in this catergory

Winner: Itachi

Intelligence
Both shinobi easily top the charts in this catergory
Itachi: Incredibly smart and great in analyzing battle strats and abilities
Tobirama: Incredibly smart and great in analyzing battle abilities, possibly the narutoverse sgreatest jutsu inventor, sensing ability to recognize clan traits and jutsus, incredible knowledge on clan abilities due to numerous years of fighting

Winner: Tobirama by a large margin


Stamina

Winner: Tobirama

Seals

Winner: Itachi via sword of totsuka

Kenjutsu
Both have incredible skills with the kunai or sword however Tobirama can tag his kunai
Winner: Tobirama

Kinjutsu
Itachi: Izanami
Tobirama: Edo Tensei

Winner: Take your pick

Physical stats
Both shinobi do not excell at this catergory however Tobirama should be more durable and stronger. He also has superior reflexes

Winner: Tobirama


----------



## asstonine (Feb 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Tobirama would be lucky to even beat Itachi.



Wank wank.  Fanfiction bullshit!
He barely beat an elite jounin!  A high tier kage would roflstomp him!



Complete_Ownage said:


> Ninjutsu:
> Itachi: Susanoo + Amaterasu + Yasaka Magatama + crow clones + Uchiha fire techniques
> 
> Tobirama: Edo tensei + Sensing abiltiy + high level sutions(supposidly) + FTG
> ...



This is a pretty good analysis, though I don't agree with taijutsu or kenjutsu.  You said it yourself, Tobi has much better physical stats.  Thus, logic dictates he wins these two categories.  This is sickly Itachi we are talking about too!  He was losing to hebi sasuke in ninjutsu, and taijutsu!


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

asstonine said:


> Wank wank.  Fanfiction bullshit!
> He barely beat an elite jounin!  A high tier kage would roflstomp him!



Itachi effortlessly raping Orochimaru kinda shoves a massive harpoon through your argument, buddy.


----------



## Bonly (Feb 3, 2014)

*Ninjutsu*
*Offense* - Itachi
*Defense* - Itachi
*Versatility* - Tie
*Hand Sign Speed* - Itachi

*Taijutsu*
*Striking Power* - Tie
*Attack Speed* - Tie
*Skill* - Itachi

*Genjutsu*
*Offense* - Itachi
*Resistance* - Itachi

*Physical *
*Speed* - Tobi
*Reflexes* - Tie
*Durability* - Tie
*Strength* - Tie

*Mental *
*Intelligence* - Tie
*Tactics* - Tie

*Chakra*
*Reserves* - Tobi
*Control* - Tie

*Other*
*Sensing/Tracking* -Tobi

Itachi- 5
Tobi- 3
Tie- 9


----------



## Veracity (Feb 3, 2014)

Itachi having equal speed to Tobirama is beyond my comprehension.

Also there were some pretty bias assumptions regarding Itachi. Like stuff that's just ridiculous.

Also FRS has a better success rate then Amaterasu. 

It vaporized a pain body, incapacitated Kakuzu, stopped Madara, knocked the Kyuubi on it's ass, and tore through the Juubis tail.

Amaterasu lite Sasukes wing on fire, killed some Zetsu, burned Ay's arm, and caught bee on fire.


----------



## asstonine (Feb 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi effortlessly raping Orochimaru kinda shoves a massive harpoon through your argument, buddy.



Haha, you wankers always come back to this, because you have nothing else.  
Orochimaru and Itachi never fought.  Orochimaru merely lost at genjutsu! 

In a real fight Orochimaru would rape Itachi!
He would Edo tensei, and go take a fucking nap!


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Itachi having equal speed to Tobirama is beyond my comprehension.
> 
> Also there were some pretty bias assumptions regarding Itachi. Like stuff that's just ridiculous.



Like what?



asstonine said:


> Haha, you wankers always come back to this, because you have nothing else.



Well there's also Itachi being able to decisively beat Hebi Sasuke, who was roughly Deidara's peer.

And fighting on par with Killer B, KCM Naruto, and EMS Sasuke.



> Orochimaru and Itachi never fought.  Orochimaru merely lost at genjutsu!



Orochimaru lost period; he couldn't make a single hand-sign before Itachi totally overwhelmed him.



> In a real fight Orochimaru would rape Itachi!



Orochimaru himself said otherwise, and he even got a second opinion from Sasuke.



> He would Edo tensei, and go take a fucking nap!



Sure--inside the Totsuka gourd, along with his zombies.

IF he can even put his hands together to use the Jutsu before Itachi cuts one off again.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 3, 2014)

Like Itachi having equal or better movement and striking speed to an FTG user who could catch Juubito Off guard.


----------



## asstonine (Feb 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Like Itachi having equal or better movement and striking speed to an FTG user who could catch Juubito Off guard.



Wasting your time on those wankers!   They are so brainwashed they don't know fact from fiction anymore.


----------



## IchLiebe (Feb 3, 2014)

Ninjutsu
Offense: Tobirama- He can spit at you an kill you. Edo tensei, exploding tag combo GG.
Defense: Tobirama- Hiraishin, best defense is a good offense which Itachi does not have.
Versatility: Tobirama- From spit to edo's to teleporting. Itachi is genjutsu, weak fire.
Hand Sign Speed: Tobirama- Fastest man alive

Taijutsu
Striking Power: Tobirama- He's a senju, not a weak bitch Itachi.
Attack Speed: Tobirama- Fastest man alive
Skill: Tobirama- killed a famous uchiha with taijutsu.

Genjutsu
Offense: Tobirama- Mad scientist is sure to have Genjutsu down. He probably invented it.
Resistance: Tobirama- Flexes chakra, brings down walls and shit.

Physical 
Speed: tobirama- Fastest man alive
Reflexes: Tobirama- Fastest man alive
Durability: Tobirama- Senju
Strength: Tobirama- Senju

Mental 
Intelligence: Tobirama- Knows everything, and invented everything
Tactics: Tobirama- Actually uses tactics when fighting

Chakra
Reserves: Tobirama- Senju
Control: Tobirama- He's made 1000 jutsu, S/T jutsu, just a boss.

Other
Sensing/Tracking: Tobirama- One finger tells him everything.

Tobirama is just in a class of his own compared to Itachi...you know, kage tier.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Like Itachi having equal or better movement and striking speed to an FTG user who could catch Juubito Off guard.



I think people are talking about movement speed, not space-time Jutsu; obviously he's faster than Itachi with Hiraishin.



asstonine said:


> Wasting your time on those wankers!   They are so brainwashed they don't know fact from fiction anymore.



You seem to be more concerned with name-calling people for thinking differently than you...than giving them any good reason to think otherwise.

So get out.


----------



## asstonine (Feb 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Well there's also Itachi being able to decisively beat Hebi Sasuke, who was roughly Deidara's peer.


What the fuck?  Sasuke was clearly superior in every way until Susanoo came out!  

Also, how do you die from chakra depletion, and win decisively?  

How can say Itachi had a decisive victory, when Itachi got his ass kicked 90% of the fight, then died of chakra depletion at it's conclusion?!?  Huh, how does that happen?

Rhetorical question,
WANK WANK



Nikushimi said:


> And fighting on par with Killer B, KCM Naruto, and EMS Sasuke.


That was edo Itachi!  Also, you are misrepresenting the facts.  They were never seriously taking him on!



Nikushimi said:


> Orochimaru lost period; he couldn't make a single hand-sign before Itachi totally overwhelmed him.


If by lost you mean he failed to steal his body, then sure.  Wasn't a fight though.



Nikushimi said:


> Orochimaru himself said otherwise, and he even got a second opinion from Sasuke.


Sasuke said it himself.  He only won, because orochimaru was sick, and his sharingan saved him from the body transfer jutsu.  Just as it did with Itachi!  Orochimaru never wanted Itachi dead!




Nikushimi said:


> Sure--inside the Totsuka gourd, along with his zombies.
> 
> IF he can even put his hands together to use the Jutsu before Itachi cuts one off again.


Wank wank.


Nikushimi said:


> So get out.



The tears of wankers are delicious.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 3, 2014)

@niku.

Yeah I know they are. And that's where they are wrong. Itachis movement speed doesn't hold a candle to Tobiramas. Itachis fastest incarnation couldn't  blitz Base bee. I think we both can agree that the man who is keeping up with KCM Minato and catching Juubito off guard even without FTG can outspeed Itachi.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @niku.
> 
> Yeah I know they are. And that's where they are wrong. Itachis movement speed doesn't hold a candle to Tobiramas. Itachis fastest incarnation couldn't  blitz Base bee. I think we both can agree that the man who is keeping up with KCM Minato and catching Juubito off guard even without FTG can outspeed Itachi.



I thought tobirama is slower than Lee & the Bijuus since he couldn't attack madara.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

asstonine said:


> What the fuck?  Sasuke was clearly superior in every way until Susanoo came out!



And Susano'o did come out.



> Also, how do you die from chakra depletion, and win decisively?
> 
> How can say Itachi had a decisive victory, when Itachi got his ass kicked 90% of the fight, then died of chakra depletion at it's conclusion?!?  Huh, how does that happen?



He didn't win, but Obito stated very plainly that he could have if he wanted to.



> Rhetorical question,
> WANK WANK



Dude...shut up. You are like a parrot with this shit.



> That was edo Itachi!



So?



> Also, you are misrepresenting the facts.  They were never seriously taking him on!



It sure looked like they were.



> If by lost you mean he failed to steal his body, then sure.  Wasn't a fight though.



No one said Oro was trying to take his body, or even why they confronted each other in the first place. But the fact remains that Itachi dismantled him before he could do anything.



> Sasuke said it himself.  He only won, because orochimaru was sick, and his sharingan saved him from the body transfer jutsu.  Just as it did with Itachi!  Orochimaru never wanted Itachi dead!



According to Orochimaru, he left Akatsuki because Itachi was stronger than him. And according to Sasuke, it was impossible for himself or Orochimaru to kill Itachi as separate beings.



> Wank wank.



I'm not seeing a rebuttal here.



> The tears of wankers are delicious.



That is hilarious in a way I'm sure you didn't intend when you typed it.



Likes boss said:


> @niku.
> 
> Yeah I know they are. And that's where they are wrong. Itachis movement speed doesn't hold a candle to Tobiramas. Itachis fastest incarnation couldn't  blitz Base bee. I think we both can agree that the man who is keeping up with KCM Minato and catching Juubito off guard even without FTG can outspeed Itachi.



Juubito blitzed KCM Minato and KCM Naruto, so I think Tobirama getting his back had more to do with surprise than anything. T-dawg couldn't even blitz Sage Mads with Minato's trick.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 4, 2014)

What ? Tobirama was able to shunshin a large distance before KCM Minato could move his arm an inch. He was also able to push Juubitos orb into his body before he could physically move an inch , and after being shredded was able to tag Juubito twice without him noticing. Not blitzing Sage Madara does not help your argument as Sage Madara is god tier and has the biggest plot shield to date.

@elia.

The Bjuiis were only able to hit Madara because he was unable to move. And the Lee feat was against Edo Madara. Not Alive, Real Rinnegan + Sage Enchanced Madara.


----------



## Ersa (Feb 4, 2014)

Tobirama's Shunshin is inferior to Base Minato's.

So Itachi having a comparable Shunshin to him is possible as B couldn't react to him once and needed a warning to keep up. *[1]  []*


----------



## asstonine (Feb 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @niku.
> 
> Yeah I know they are. And that's where they are wrong. Itachis movement speed doesn't hold a candle to Tobiramas. Itachis fastest incarnation couldn't  blitz Base bee. I think we both can agree that the man who is keeping up with KCM Minato and catching Juubito off guard even without FTG can outspeed Itachi.



Bee wasn't even trying either, lol!
They were casually having a chat as they easily thwarted his taijutsu!



Ersatz said:


> Tobirama's Shunshin is inferior to Base Minato's.
> 
> So Itachi having a comparable Shunshin to him is possible as B couldn't react to him once and needed a warning to keep up. *[1]  []*



More wank fanfiction.  There is no evidence for anything you said in that panel!  You are reading into it what you want, not what is there.


----------



## Ersa (Feb 4, 2014)

asstonine said:


> More wank fanfiction.  There is no evidence for anything you said in that panel!  You are reading into it what you want, not what is there.


I think you need to read the manga again bro.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 4, 2014)

Ninjutsu

Offence: Itachi
Defence: Itachi
Versatility: Itachi
Hand sign speed: itachi

Taijutsu

Striking power: comparable
Attack speed: comparable
Skill: Tobirama

Genjutsu

Offence: Itachi
Defence: Itachi

Physical

Speed: comparable
Reflexes: itachi
Durability: Tobirama
Strength: comparable

Mental

Intelligence: comparable
Tactics: itachi

Chakra reserves: Tobirama
Control: itachi

Other

Sensing/tracking: Tobirama

Overall
In terms of how'd they do against third party fighters there on the same tier imo but Itachi's higher up on it. 
I feel through statements its safe to say Tobi's > the average[unnamed] mangekyou sharingan user. Itachi's a top end ms user though so it remains to be seen how well he'd perform against him.


----------



## asstonine (Feb 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> And Susano'o did come out.


No rebuttal.



Nikushimi said:


> He didn't win, but Obito stated very plainly that he could have if he wanted to.


Unreliable source.  Context please! 
We saw the fight, and he barely barley won!  That's a fucking fact!



Nikushimi said:


> Dude...shut up. You are like a parrot with this shit.


Wank wank



Nikushimi said:


> So?


So Edo Itachi >>> Sick Itachi




Nikushimi said:


> It sure looked like they were.


They were casually thwarting the taijutsu of edo itachi, while having a conversation!



Nikushimi said:


> No one said Oro was trying to take his body, or even why they confronted each other in the first place. But the fact remains that Itachi dismantled him before he could do anything.


Yah, they did.  What did you think he was doing, taking him out on a date?  Wasn't a fight.  Sorry, bro!  Facts> Fiction




Nikushimi said:


> According to Orochimaru, he left Akatsuki because Itachi was stronger than him. And according to Sasuke, it was impossible for himself or Orochimaru to kill Itachi as separate beings.


Yah, he couldn't use the body possession technique, because the sharingan countered it.  Thus, he left the Akatsuki!
Orochimaru didn't know of his illness.  Regardless, obviously Orochimaru told Sasuke that?  Gee, I wonder why?


----------



## Veracity (Feb 4, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Tobirama's Shunshin is inferior to Base Minato's.
> 
> So Itachi having a comparable Shunshin to him is possible as B couldn't react to him once and needed a warning to keep up. *[1]  []*



How many times have we had this debate , and how many times have you lost ?

Viz translation says FTG. And Shunshin is sometimes mentioned to be FTG; 

Even if Tobirama had an inferior shunshin to Minato , Minato's shunshin is far better then Itachis.

Also we've had this debate regarding Itachi being massively superior to Oros equal ; Jirayia, yet Jirayia bring equal or even superior to Itachi ? Yeah okay.

The problem is that bee didn't even need that warning tbh. And the next problem is that Itachi was not only incapable of blitzing bee, but bee was able to Completley swing his sword before Itachi could even more. And ANOTHER problem with that is that Itachi warned Bee after he was mere inches from his body , meaning if Itachi had such a " immensely fast " shunshin then bee would not have been able to even move considering how late the warning was , let alone complete an entire swing before Itachi could move.

And lastly , even if Itachi blitzed BASE Bee, that still puts him far below Tobirama.


----------



## Ersa (Feb 4, 2014)

*Ninjutsu*
*Offense* - Itachi
*Defense* - Itachi
*Versatility* - Tie
*Hand Sign Speed* - Itachi

*Taijutsu*
*Striking Power* - Tie
*Attack Speed* - Tie
*Skill* - Itachi

*Genjutsu*
*Offense* - Itachi
*Resistance* - Itachi

*Physical *
*Speed* - Tie.
*Reflexes* - Itachi.
*Durability* - Tobirama
*Strength* - Tie

*Mental *
*Intelligence* - Itachi
*Tactics* - Itachi

*Chakra*
*Reserves* - Tobirama
*Control* - Itachi

*Other*
*Sensing/Tracking* -Tobirama

Itachi- 10
Tobi- 2
Tie- 5

Tobirama is stronger then sick Itachi but he gets defeated by Edo Itachi. These rankings mean little in a match-up to be honest.


----------



## Ersa (Feb 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> How many times have we had this debate , and how many times have you lost ?
> 
> Viz translation says FTG. And Shunshin is sometimes mentioned to be FTG;
> 
> ...


Show me the Viz translation then, also that post proves nothing.

Itachi's Shunshin is far inferior? Yeah show me base Minato's Shunshin feats. Has he ever near-blitzed someone who's faster then Hebi Sasuke with 4.5 in speed and Sharingan?

That panel where Itachi implied mutual KO means jackshit. It's not an admission of power or inferiority like Tobirama admitting he's Shunshin is inferior or Orochimaru admitting Itachi is stronger then him. 

Yeah the warning gave him time to react. And it doesn't explain how KCM Naruto reacted to his Shunshin and B didn't.


----------



## asstonine (Feb 4, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Show me the Viz translation then, also that post proves nothing.
> 
> Itachi's Shunshin is far inferior? Yeah show me base Minato's Shunshin feats. Has he ever near-blitzed someone who's faster then Hebi Sasuke with 4.5 in speed and Sharingan?
> 
> ...



What is this near blitz bullshit?  And why are you using the databook?  ROFL!

How does that panel not mean anything?  Ohh because it clearly proves you are wanking Itachi to insane levels, that's right!   Way to deny evidence you don't like!

Gave him time?  Bullshit assumption based on nothing!
They were casually toying with him in CQC while carrying on a conversation!
Let's not forget this was edo Itachi too!


Poor wanker can't face reality.
Itach isn't a speed demon... Fact, bro!


----------



## Trojan (Feb 4, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Show me the Viz translation then, also that post proves nothing.
> 
> Itachi's Shunshin is far inferior? Yeah show me base Minato's Shunshin feats. Has he ever near-blitzed someone who's faster then Hebi Sasuke with 4.5 in speed and Sharingan?
> 
> ...



- Which page do you want? I might be able to help. @>@
- 


1] 
From the mountain to Kurama in no time

1] 
1] 

covering a huge area, and no one even notice 

1] 
1] 

Stopped kakashi before he could move his hand. @.@


----------



## Veracity (Feb 4, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Show me the Viz translation then, also that post proves nothing.
> 
> Itachi's Shunshin is far inferior? Yeah show me base Minato's Shunshin feats. Has he ever near-blitzed someone who's faster then Hebi Sasuke with 4.5 in speed and Sharingan?
> 
> ...



Thanks Elia. Wish I could rep you.

The post shows a clear and cut instance where Madara called FTG A shunshin. Which proves my point.

It's admitting he's equal to Jirayia who is equal to Oro. But Oro was one paneled by a causal Itachi ? And Oro has more Genjustu skills then Jirayia ? And even if Jirayia was superior to Oro, Oro was paneled by Itachi and Jirayia is suppose to be able to stalemate Itachi ? Yeah you explain this. 

The warning does not give bee time to react if Itachi was literally inches away from his body , moved first, and was aiming to mortally wound bee. If anything you have to agree that Itachis shunshin isn't all that impressive, or that Itachi has some pretty pitiful striking speed considering bee could swing the entirety of Samehada before Itachi could land any attack, and that's AFTER Itachi was inches away from bee.

 And @elia since you have a lot of the biz translations, could you bring up the panel where Tobirama "admits inferiority to Minato's shunshin ".


----------



## Trojan (Feb 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Thanks Elia. Wish I could rep you.
> 
> 
> And @elia since you have a lot of the biz translations, could you bring up the panel where Tobirama "admits inferiority to Minato's shunshin ".



no problem. ^_^
*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Veracity (Feb 4, 2014)

Elia said:


> no problem. ^_^
> *Spoiler*: __



Thank you very much. 

This is the point where Kyokan decides not to repost back, Because his opinion has been absolutely obliterated.

You know I stay repping that Tobirama status. If only he was superior to KCM Minato . Then he'd be my favorite character.


----------



## Ersa (Feb 4, 2014)

So Minato moves faster then a 14 year old Obito without Kamui. Good job, adult Obito is not much faster then Base Kakashi who's slower then Base B. KCM Minato stopped Kakashi so that feat is invalid. The Kurama feat is mildly impressive 

And you do realize Shunshin translates to teleportation or body flicker yeah? 

Their FTG is the same speed, why would S/T speed be different? Minato's Shunshin is superior. Basically all translators say it's Shunshin, even Viz makes it pretty obvious.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 4, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> So Minato moves faster then a 14 year old Obito without Kamui. Good job, adult Obito is not much faster then Base Kakashi who's slower then Base B. KCM Minato stopped Kakashi so that feat is invalid. The Kurama feat is mildly impressive
> 
> And you do realize Shunshin translates to teleportation or body flicker yeah?
> 
> Their FTG is the same speed, why would S/T speed be different? Minato's Shunshin is superior. Basically all translators say it's Shunshin, even Viz makes it pretty obvious.



The feat where he Shunshins across the entirety of Konoha in an instant before even lord Kurama can move is not impressive ? The same lord Kurama who with his speed was pressuring SM Naruto. 

His feat where he completely grabs Kushina before the Kyyubi who was literal inches from hitting is not impressive?

Shunshin is not teleportation. So to you It's more understanding for quick movement to mean teleportation rather then actual teleportation ? 

Tobirama says Minato's teleportation is faster then him because he possesses level 2 FTG and not level one. Tobirama also said how a Kage Bunshins FTG is slower then the originals btw.

Anyway, id like you to reply to mine and everyone else's post also. You can't just walk away from those posts.

Edit: also being "better" at FTG does not mean faster. FTG lvl 2 maybe ?


----------



## Alex Payne (Feb 4, 2014)

Tobirama showed the same "lvl 2" when he warped to his kunai while attacking Madara.


----------



## asstonine (Feb 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> It's admitting he's equal to Jirayia who is equal to Oro. But Oro was one paneled by a causal Itachi ? And Oro has more Genjustu skills then Jirayia ? And even if Jirayia was superior to Oro, Oro was paneled by Itachi and Jirayia is suppose to be able to stalemate Itachi ? Yeah you explain this.
> ".



Simple.
First off, he said Itachi + Kisame < Jiraiya.  Not Itachi = Jiraiya....  In fact, he clearly said that wasn't the case!
A fact proven, when Jiraiya came to save Naruto.

Orochimaru admitted inferiority in genjutsu.  He couldn't take over Itachi's body, due to the sharingan.   Another thing to point out is that Orochimaru wasn't aware of his illness!

Itachi never beat Orochimaru in a fight.  He merely defeated him in genjutsu.  With some basic knowledge and a little prep Orochimaru would wipe the floor with sickly Itachi.


----------



## Turrin (Feb 4, 2014)

Ninjutsu
Offense: Tobirama - Edo Tensei edges this in Tobirama's favor
Defense: Tobirama - FTG having less drawbacks than Susano'o edges this in Tobirama's favor
Versatility: Tobirama - Edo Tensei edges this in Tobirama's favor
Hand Sign Speed: itachi - Fool Sharingan

Taijutsu
Striking Power: Tobirama - Great physical strength cracking the wall by simply touching it
Attack Speed: Tobirama - Fastest Man back in the day
Skill: N/A - hard to say

Genjutsu
Offense: itachi - Goes without saying
Resistance: Tie - Tobirama's Sensing is great for this and so is Itachi's Sharingan

Physical 
Speed: Tobirama -  Fastest Man back in the day
Reflexes: Tobirama - Fastest Man back in the day
Durability: Tobirama - on the basis of Senju body
Strength: Tobirama -  Great physical strength cracking the wall by simply touching it

Mental 
Intelligence: Tie - Both are really dam smart
Tactics: Tobirama - his Ninja like tactics seem more impressive than Itachi's

Chakra
Reserves: Tobirama - Senju
Control: Itachi - might edge this due to proficiency w/ Genjutsu

Other
Sensing/Tracking: Tobirama - Obivously due to Sensing

Overall
Itachi: 3
Tobirama: 12
Tie: 2
N/A - 1

But some of these categories overlap imo.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 4, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Tobirama showed the same "lvl 2" when he warped to his kunai while attacking Madara.



Yeah ? That was way after though. In the beginning of the war Tobirama didn't have FTG lvl 2. Trust me, I argued this for weeks. On how simple it was for Tobirama to simply touch a Kunai. But considering Minato had upgraded his FTG to level 2, and how Tobirama was never stated to have such .

It's also to be considered that this very feat would have been the very first time tobirama had seen FTG level 2. Him saying Minato was better at FTG at the moment was very true.


----------



## Ersa (Feb 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> The feat where he Shunshins across the entirety of Konoha in an instant before even lord Kurama can move is not impressive ? The same lord Kurama who with his speed was pressuring SM Naruto.
> 
> His feat where he completely grabs Kushina before the Kyyubi who was literal inches from hitting is not impressive?
> 
> ...


Pretty sure Minato has a tag on Kushina.


So it's more likely he FTG'ed in then used Shunshin.

Not more impressive then borderline blitzing Base B? Yeah I think so. Minato most likely has a superior Shunshin to Itachi but I doubt Tobirama does.

Well basically every translator says Shunshin, Viz simply leaves it more up in the air but Shunshin can be translated to teleportation I believe so even that translation doesn't really support your claim.

Tobirama has Hiraishin V2, he used it against Madara. Their FTG is the same as shown in their switch combo. It's clear Minato's Shunshin is better.

Whose post? Only Elia and asstofive agrees with you. One is a troll and the other believes Jiraiya can solo Itachi and Kisame in base soooo... Appealing to crowd is a fallacy as well, it doesn't make your argument better.


----------



## Alex Payne (Feb 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Yeah ? That was way after though. In the beginning of the war Tobirama didn't have FTG lvl 2. Trust me, I argued this for weeks. On how simple it was for Tobirama to simply touch a Kunai. But considering Minato had upgraded his FTG to level 2, and how Tobirama was never stated to have such .
> 
> It's also to be considered that this very feat would have been the very first time tobirama had seen FTG level 2. Him saying Minato was better at FTG at the moment was very true.


What? Are you serious? Tobirama obviously always had the same "level 2". And he never said that Minato had better Hiraishin. Stop it. They were physically moving towards the battlefield. Minato was first, hence the better shunshin. Never did Minato use Level 2 for Tobirama to see and copy anyway.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 4, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Pretty sure Minato has a tag on Kushina.
> 
> 
> So it's more likely he FTG'ed in then used Shunshin.
> ...



Not sure if that even an FTG seal, but yeah sure.

And nothing confirms he has anything to FTG to, and in the paneled he doesn't FTG to anything. There's nothing there to FTG to. He simply Shunshins there and summons Bunta.

First of off. He didn't even blitz bee. Second, he wasn't even close to blitzing bee as bee was able to strike first after being warned after. Third, Sasuke was able to mid air dodge a V1 Bee. This whole Base bee being a top tier in speed thing is getting a little out of hand.

What every translator says does not matter as long as we have viz clearly sayings it's teleportation. Which correlates to actual teleportation rather quick movement. 

Was this feat at the same time as when he battled Madara ? No. At the time he didn't even know what lvl 2 FTG was. That was the first time he had ever seen it, he simply stole the idea and used it against Madara.

You are done with it because it clearly contradicts your " whatever the character says is true " logic.

And reply to assoutine and Elia.


----------



## Alex Payne (Feb 4, 2014)

Weird choice of categories.

*Ninjutsu*

Offense: _Itachi _edges this with Amaterasu+Susano being better than Gojo Kibakufuda. It is possible that with Edo Tensei Nidaime could get his hands on comparable/superior offenses but very unlikely considering zombies weakened status. Base arsenal is roughly even featwise, hypewise Tobirama should have monstrous Suitons though but even with them he can't reach MS Itachi offensive level imo.

Defense: _Tobirama_. Hiraishin, gg.

Versatility: _Tobirama_. Edo Tensei alone grants access to vast number of potential ninjutsu. Hiraishin with variants, KB, Suitons... Tobirama takes this comfortably. 

Hand Sign Speed: _Itachi_. Obviously.

*Taijutsu*

Striking Power: _Tobirama_. Senju body

Attack Speed: Without Hiraishin _Itachi _looked more impressive in my opinion. 

Skill: _Tie_. Both are impressive. Nidaime lacks showings but I am willing to accept hype here.

*Genjutsu*

Offense: _Itachi_
Resistance: _Itachi_

*Physical *

Speed: _Itachi_. Without Hiraishin Itachi showed superior speed imo. vs Killer B and vs Kabuto are slightly more impressive than Tobirama's normal showings. With Hiraishin Nidaime obviously takes this.

Reflexes: _Tobirama_. "Fastest of his time" Hiraishin-user needs superb reflexes to outperform Hashirama and Madara. 

Durability: _Tobirama_ Senju
Strength: _Tobirama_ Senju

*Mental *
Intelligence: _Tobirama_. Genius inventor + high-end combat tactics

Tactics: _Itachi_. Itachi is better when in comes to pure combat intelligence. Numerous fights and statements.

*Chakra*
Reserves: _Tobirama_ Senju

Control: _Tie_ Both are awesome

*Other*
Sensing/Tracking: _Tobirama_. Duh

*Overall*
Itachi: 7
Tobirama: 9
Tie: 2


----------



## Veracity (Feb 4, 2014)

alex payne said:


> What? Are you serious? Tobirama obviously always had the same "level 2". And he never said that Minato had better Hiraishin. Stop it. They were physically moving towards the battlefield. Minato was first, hence the better shunshin. Never did Minato use Level 2 for Tobirama to see and copy anyway.



Are you kidding me ? Tobirama has NEVER been mentioned to have lvl 2 FTG. Matter of fact show me a damn scan for this.

He DIRECTLY says that Minato is better at teleporting then him.

Are you being serious with this last one ? Minato never used FTG lvl 2 around Tobirama when it's CLEARLY in the chapter we are talking about. And when he CLEARLY used FTG level 2 against Juubito a million times, and when Tobirama CLEARLY says( during god tree) that Minato has a more efficient use of FTG via having lvl 2.


----------



## Alex Payne (Feb 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Are you kidding me ? Tobirama has NEVER been mentioned to have lvl 2 FTG. Matter of fact show me a damn scan for this.
> 
> He DIRECTLY says that Minato is better at teleporting then him.
> 
> Are you being serious with this last one ? Minato never used FTG lvl 2 around Tobirama when it's CLEARLY in the chapter we are talking about. And when he CLEARLY used FTG level 2 against Juubito a million times, and when Tobirama CLEARLY says( during god tree) that Minato has a more efficient use of FTG via having lvl 2.


Oh, boy. And you force other people to counter your points.



Likes boss said:


> He DIRECTLY says that Minato is better at teleporting then him.


Where?


----------



## Veracity (Feb 4, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Oh, boy. And you force other people to counter your points.
> 
> 
> Where?



Kabuto did here.


----------



## Alex Payne (Feb 4, 2014)

Where he used Kyubi chakra-link and Minato's scattered seals? What this have to do with Hiraishin levels?

Here is another translation



> tobi: I will exploit your connection to naruto’s chakra, fourth\\
> tobi:  I will use my body flickering technique to support everyone\\ even if  differently from you, helping all of them together would be impossible  for me\\


Which more obviously points towards chakra-link being the difference.


----------



## Jad (Feb 4, 2014)

I'll try give my fair analysis.

*Ninjutsu*
*Offense*: *Tobirama*

Tobirama has FTG, that word alone means nothing, but if he combines it with a Kunai or his tag explosion technique, it can be sure kill for a lot of opponents. His also got the Jet Stream technique that can cut through most if not all ninjas. On top of all this, he has Edo's to work for him if he preps before.

However, Itachi has MS techniques which are all sure kills. Ameratsu lacks the _punch_. So you may get some Kamikaze ninja's. Mangekyo Sharingan is delibitating, but some ninja's can get through that mental barrier; Hidan for one. However, Itachi's strongest offensive technique is the Sealing Blade. But lacks the speed in mid-battle, it's basically been used on stationary or arrogant opponents.

Quite close, but I believe *Tobirama* can make most of his FTG. However, almost too close to call, but I made one.

*Defense*: *Itachi*
*
Itachi* has Sasuno, it's quite easy for me to make this point. Tobirama has absolutely no defensive ninjutsu.

*Versatility*: *Tobriama*

I believe *Tobirama* can make the most of his techniques, his got a larger chakra supply, combines FTG with his clones, and his techniques, and can utilise Edo Tensei with preparation.

When it comes to Itachi, he has B/C-rank techniques he can't spam in base. And when he does rely on MS, it's based on using them one at a time. He doesn't exactly mix and match techniques, for example like Sasuke who combined Ameterasu and Sasuno. Most likely based on his chakra supply

*Hand Sign Speed*: *Itachi*

It was stated *Itachi* has the fastest hand seal speed. Nothing suggests Tobirama is anything special.

*Taijutsu*
*Striking Power*: *Tobirama*

With the palm of his hand, *Tobirama* cracked a wall. His also got the _Thunder God Slash_, which when combined with his momentum, gives him more power. Itachi hasn't shown anything special in Taijutsu when it comes to _striking power_.

*Attack Speed*: *Tobirama*

This basically comes down to one technique in *Tobirama's* arsenal, _Thunder God Slash_. It's a taijutsu technique which seems simple, and so he gets the edge.

However without it, both Itachi and Tobirama are nothing special in attack speed, pretty much the same.

*Skill*: *Tobirama*

Again, it comes down to *Tobirama* having the _Thunder God Slash_ technique in his arsenal, a named technique.

However, without it, I'd say are pretty much in the same ball park.

*Genjutsu*
*Offense*: *Itachi*

Not need to elaborate. Sharingan was built for Genjutsu.

*Resistance*: *Itachi*

Not need to elaborate. Sharingan was built for Genjutsu.

*Physical *
*Speed*: *Same*

I was about to make a point about Tobirama's _Thunder God Slash_ technique, as it does show a boost of temporary speed. But I will make this an exception and leave that as _technique_.

*Reflexes*: *Same~*

I am not too confident on this, but I will say same. One has Sharingan, the other has to move in position when using FTG. I might give this to *Itachi*.

*Durability*: *Tobirama*

Guess it comes down to having the body of a Senju. Uchiha's got the eyes.

*Strength*: *Tobriama*

Palm crack wall example.

*Mental *
*Intelligence*: *Tobirama*

I say *Tobirama* because he was in a position of being a Hokage, has been in a war, and has lead teams. More then Itachi has done. However, *Itachi* has had the potential to be above Tobirama. But Itachi threw that away when he killed his clan. I think Tobirama also has more 'worldy' experince. I nearly forgot, he also created some ninjutsu techniques which have been used (and abused) by A-Class ninja's; Edo Tensei, FTG and Kage Bunshin.

*Tactics*: *Same*

Tobirama has been in a position of being a Hokage, has lead teams, and has war experience. While Itachi intelligence allowed him to set everything in motion, from the Hebi Sasuke fight, to using Shisui's sharingan. Also made a point to counter Nagato's planetary technique. He plans very well and thinks on his feet.

*Chakra*
*Reserves*: *Tobirama*

To me this was an easy point to make, he has the body of a pure Senju.

*Control*: *Itachi*

I say *Itachi* because in Part-1 he was falling on his knee after one usage of MS. But in Part-2, I guess he learned how to portion out his Chakra, and extended the fight against Hebi Sauske while facing a disease and blindness.

*Other*
*Sensing/Tracking*: *Tobirama*

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't *Tobirama *sense Madara was on the field? While I remember Itachi said he wasn't a sensor to Kabuto.

*Overall*
*Itachi*: 5
*Tobirama*: 10
*Tie*: 3


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Feb 4, 2014)

*Ninjutsu*
Offense: Itachi
Defense: Itachi
Versatility: Tie
Hand Sign Speed: Itachi

*Taijutsu*
Striking Power: Tobirama
Attack Speed: Tie
Skill: Itachi

*Genjutsu*
Offense: Itachi
Resistance: Itachi

*Physical*
Speed: Tobirama
Reflexes: Itachi
Durability: Tobirama
Strength: Tobirama

*Mental* 
Intelligence: Tie
Tactics: Tie

*Chakra*
Reserves: Tobirama
Control: Tie

*Other*
Sensing/Tracking: Tie


*Overall*
Itachi: 7
Tobirama: 5
Tie: 6


----------



## Veracity (Feb 4, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Where he used Kyubi chakra-link and Minato's scattered seals? What this have to do with Hiraishin levels?
> 
> Here is another translation
> 
> ...



I don't understand how that proves anything? 

I think it leads more towards Minato having scattered Kunai around the battlefield unlike Tobirama who could not at the time.

It's also to note that if Tobirama could very well use FTG level 2, why did he refrain from using it his entire life, and his entire battle with Juubito and when trying to save the alliance. 

Anywho, I'll shall ask Elia for a viz scan to end this confusion.


----------



## Dominus (Feb 4, 2014)

*Ninjutsu:*
_Offense:_ Itachi 
_Defense:_ Tobirama
_Versatility:_ Tie
_Hand Sign Speed:_ Itachi

*Taijutsu:*
_Striking Power:_ Tobirama
_Attack Speed:_ Tobirama
_Skill:_ Tie

*Genjutsu:*
_Offense:_ Itachi
_Resistance:_ Itachi

*Physical:*
_Speed:_ Tie
_Reflexes:_ Tie
_Durability:_ Tobirama
_Strength:_ Tobirama

*Mental:*
_Intelligence:_ Tie
_Tactics:_ Itachi

*Chakra:*
_Reserves:_ Tobirama
_Control:_ Tie

*Other:*
_Sensing/Tracking:_ Tobirama

*Overall:*
 - *5*
 - *7*
_Tie:_ *6*


----------



## Trojan (Feb 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I don't understand how that proves anything?
> 
> I think it leads more towards Minato having scattered Kunai around the battlefield unlike Tobirama who could not at the time.
> 
> ...



this page?


----------



## Alex Payne (Feb 4, 2014)

Still isn't clear but points towards Tobirama talking about chakra-connection imo. Assuming that Minato can warp a large group of people at the same time at once while Tobirama can't for some reason - this is still irrelevant in one-on-one fights.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 4, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Still isn't clear but points towards Tobirama talking about chakra-connection imo. Assuming that Minato can warp a large group of people at the same time at once while Tobirama can't for some reason - this is still irrelevant in one-on-one fights.



I did not read your posts from the start, so I' honestly don't know for sure what are you debating. 
But, in case you (all) have the debate on whether or not the FTG can be referred to as a shunshin,
then the answer is "Yes". 

from another thread 



Elia said:


> Viz translated that as teleporting
> 
> 
> Tobirama referred to FTG as a shunshin sometimes. [1][2][3]
> ...



So, there are around 9 times the characters called the FTG by shunshin, that's included Tobirama himself.  Viz on the other hand translate that as "Teleporting"


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Feb 4, 2014)

^ This is why I hate Tobirama's word choice. I wish Kishi would have made him differentiate.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Feb 4, 2014)

*NINJUTSU*

*Offense:* _Tie._
*Defense:* _Itachi._
*Versatility:* _Itachi._
*Hand Sign Speed:* _Itachi._

*TAIJUTSU*

*Striking Power:* _Tobirama._
*Attack Speed:* _Tobirama._
*Skill:* _Itachi._

*GENJUTSU*

*Offense:* _Itachi._
*Resistance:* _Itachi._

*PHYSICAL*

*Speed:* _Tobirama._
*Reflexes:* _Tobirama._
*Durability:* _Tobirama._
*Strength:* _Tobirama._

*MENTAL*

*Intelligence:* _Tie._
*Tactics:* _Itachi._

*CHAKRA*

*Reserves:* _Tobirama._
*Control:* _Itachi._

*OTHER*

*Sensing:* _Tobirama._

*OVERALL*

*Itachi:* _8_
*Tobirama:* _8_
*Tie:* _2_


*Conclusion:* _Edo Itachi≥Tobirama>Sick Itachi._


----------



## Jagger (Feb 4, 2014)

I lol'd at someone hinting the possibility Tobirama learned how to do a new and basic trick like Minato's.

He created both FTG and Edo Tensei not to mention several others sources of knowledge and are you suggesting he never came up with the idea of placing a seal in the kunai?


----------



## Kazekage94 (Feb 4, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Ninjutsu
> Offense: Itachi
> Defense: Itachi
> Versatility: Itachi
> ...


If it's not speed why is Minato the fastest guy???


----------



## Trojan (Feb 5, 2014)

spoiler 663

in this chapter the FTG was referred as a shunshin 3 more times, one of the by Tobirama. 

*Spoiler*: __ 










If those 3 times beside the 9 times previously do not make that obvious to some people, then
I don't know what will make it clear to them!


----------

