# Itachi Uchiha vs Minato Namikaze



## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

vs


Location: Open field
Knowledge: Manga
Distance: 25m
Restrictions: None
Stipulations/Notes: Itachi is healthy with full eyesight.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Not this again 
Shitstorm incoming

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## ARGUS (Jan 4, 2017)

Been done to death 

Minato outlasts susanoo and then kills him.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 4, 2017)

Itachi fans logic "Since Itachi beat one Sanin he is above other Sanin"
Taking that into account "Since Minato beat a ms warrior he is above other ms warrior"

Minato wins mid difficulty at most. Minatos base speed (1) (2-2) (3)  and his teleportation(which allowed him to faster than v2 Ay) means itachi is set up on the defensive while minato can react to amaterasu with ftg Susanoo attacks arenot not touching minato who could react V2 Ay,   minato can use  to redirect yasaka. Itachis only chance is a genjutsu but its difficult to put a guy in genjutsu who can constantly be out of your LOS while you are forced to defend. Itachi eventually gets tagged or outlasted.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Jan 4, 2017)

This shit again 

Minato rapes him like this

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 4, 2017)

Non-eye contact genjutsu GG. 

Fanfic Minato who fights outside of LoS is BS. He always stand in front of his opponent before making any move whatsoever and the only time he dodges is when he sees the attacks coming.

You don't see genjutsu coming......

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Blu-ray (Jan 4, 2017)

Don't you people ever get tired of this?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

Didn't Minato look straight into Obito's eyes?

Him completely fighting out of LoS is a little OOC no?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Rai (Jan 4, 2017)

We know that Itachi wins.

Close this thread.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Didn't Minato look straight into Obito's eyes?
> 
> Him completely fighting out of LoS is a little OOC no?


He looked in obitos general direaction doesnot mean he looked at his eyes. It could have been neck mask forehead anything.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

professor83 said:


> He looked in obitos general direaction doesnot mean he looked at his eyes. It could have been neck mask forehead anything.


They were extremely close together, and we have already seen Itachi place genjutsu from peripheral vision on Bee.

OT
Can go either way, imma have to think on this


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## Sapherosth (Jan 4, 2017)



Reactions: Like 3


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

Lemme propell the shit storm

Amaterasu gets countered by strategically placed, FTG kunais+ Minato ridiculous reflexes/reaction time.


Izanami...

Genjutsu gets countered by sensing, or simply not looking into Itachi's eyes. Lmfao, finger genjutsu is a literal non factor. He escapes it, like any other kage level shinobi would escape a kai'able genjutsu.

Susanoo is literally irrelevant because:
- It isn't fast enough to tag someone of minato's speed+ reflexes. INB4 Susanoo arm blitz
- yata mirror is useless due to Minato not giving excess amounts of DC
- toskua blade is a non factor, due to Minato's great sensing+speed and reflexes, he easily evades without zero trouble.
- It would be stupid for him to use it anyway, as it severly cuts away at his life force/chakra, and he has no way of actually touching Minato, so it would be used more on the defensive, than offensive. Trying to hit someone he in a slower form, that he already couldn't touch in his base form,  sounds like hell.
Well this is all under the assumption, that he doesn't immediately get tagged in his base form,(which would most likely be the case) then that would basically be game right their, as even his Susanoo would be irrelevant at that point.

Itachi simply gets outlasted, due to the significant difference in stamina, or he gets tagged early on in to match, and gives Itachi a rasengan to the back

"Lol genjutsu" is a trash argument, how much people on Minato's caliber just stand their looking straight into someone's eyes like a dumbass? None right? I guess I should just say "lol FTG+rasengan", because by that same logic, Itachi just stands their to be tagged and one shot by rasengan
Minato wins low-mid diff


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Amaterasu gets countered by strategically placed, FTG kunais+ Minato ridiculous reflexes/reaction time.



lol wtf. You can't avoid Amaterasu, it's literally instant. You have to be moving faster than the eye can track BEFORE it hits you. It's incredibly OOC for Minato to teleport randomly around the battlefield before it hits, he has no knowledge, so it's likely to hit.



> Lmfao, finger genjutsu is a literal non factor. He escapes it, like any other kage level shinobi would escape a kai'able genjutsu.



He has shown no genjutsu prowess.



> just stand their looking straight into someone's eyes like a dumbass?





Itachi has been shown to place genjutsu even under peripheral vision, he did it against Bee.


> Minato wins low-mid diff


It'd be a high extreme diff for whoever wins. Tired of seeing the unholy Minato wank everywhere


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## Rai (Jan 4, 2017)

Minato can't scratch Susano'o V1, Itachi doesn't have to use more than that. Genjutsu oneshot all of Minato's summons and Amaterasu can be used to counter his kunais spread in the battlefield.

Minato's mobility is restricted due to Amaterasu and with all his summons against him + Itachi, he loses.

Itachi solos

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

Minato wins.

Minato would litter the battlefield with kunai, right there from the get-go, Minato will have a means to teleport where he wants.
Madara actually teleported Sasuke out of Susanoo when he saved him from Juubito, he can do the same to Itachi; the same way Tobirama was teleporting people out of harm's way.

If Itachi so much as steps near a kunai, Minato can just get there and end him quick. Itachi wasn't quick enough to save Sasuke and then react to Muki Tensei to save himself, nor was he quick enough to notice Nagato *right in front of him *before his Edo Tensei became dust thanks to ST. In those situations, Minato would've been aware and been able to do something about it (e.g. teleport away). Ergo I do not think he'll be swift enough to react to Minato.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

ℜai said:


> Minato can't scratch Susano'o V1, Itachi doesn't have to use more than that. Genjutsu oneshot all of Minato's summons and Amaterasu can be used to counter his kunais spread in the battlefield.
> 
> Minato's mobility is restricted due to Amaterasu with all his summons against him + Itachi, he loses.
> 
> Itachi solos



I feel like you'd be a great debater if you actually tried.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> "Lol genjutsu" is a trash argument, how much people on Minato's caliber just stand their looking straight into someone's eyes like a dumbass?


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)



Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> lol wtf. *You can't avoid Amaterasu[*/QUOTE]
> Ay, disagrees.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

Can't see why. It hasn't been done in the last 5 pages, it's not unbalanced etc etc.

Nothing about this thread warrants a lock.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

You do realize it's possible for people to change their opinions when presented with information that makes them do so?

Not everyone can be as close minded as you


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

Ever wonder why Madara and Obito chose not to use Genjutsu on teleporters? Ocular Genjutsu requires focus from the user, they can't do it at a glance; Itachi isn't Sasuke, he can't do it. If Sasuke getting 9 targets under Genjutsu impresses *the Sage of the Six Paths *then it means the autsignaledlled Sasuke's ability with casting Genjutsu has exceeded Itachi's by a long shot.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> You do realize it's possible for people to change their opinions when presented with information that makes them do so?
> 
> Not everyone can be as close minded as you



Are you talking about me?


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

@The Death & The Strawberry

Lmfao, do you even know how Amaterasu works?
TO AVOID IT, YOU NEED TO BE MOVING FASTER THAN YOU CAN TRACK BEFORE IT HITS YOU.
THAT'S WHAT AY DID, HE WAS MOVING FASTER THAN EYE SPEED. IF HE WASN'T RUNNING AROUND, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN HIT.

IT'S OOC FOR MINATO TO TELEPORT ROUND AND ROUND AROUND THE BATTLEFIELD TO MOVE FASTER THAN EYE SPEED forever.

Got it? 
bring me panels of Minato showing genjutsu prowess, or being able to Kai it. If not, I'll take it as a concession.

Lmao, wtf? I love how you ignore the part where i point out that mere peripheral vision can be utilized, as per canon.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Can't see why. It hasn't been done in the last 5 pages, it's not unbalanced etc etc.
> 
> Nothing about this thread warrants a lock.


The fact that it causes a shitstorm each time it's posted does tho


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Are you talking about me?



No I was talking about PS, you quoted him with different opinions from the past.

I'm saying when presented with compelling evidence, one can change their opinions.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> The fact that it causes a shitstorm each time it's posted does tho



There's no reason for it to, it's arguably one of the most controversial, discussion-worthy debates on these forums. Both are so close in power.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> No I was talking about PS, you quoted him with different opinions from the past.
> 
> I'm saying when presented with compelling evidence, one can change their opinions.


And I never said I wouldn't. 
I said "it'd be a high diff battle, it's close for sure"

That's why I'm debating with him now.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

Needs evidence Minato can do basic things like using how to get out of illusions. Damn, next we'll be asked to prove Rinnegan Sasuke and SPSM Naruto can use kunai, or we'll need proof Hagoromo can use the Rinnegan's God and Demon Paths.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I love how you ignore the part where i point out that mere peripheral vision can be utilized, as per canon.



I mean, @StarWanderer believes Hashirama and VOTE Madara would have trouble with Minato.

The Minato wank is a little bit out of control. Whoever wins this battle, it's nothing short of high-extreme difficulty.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Needs evidence Minato can do basic things like using how to get out of illusions. Damn, next we'll be asked to prove Rinnegan Sasuke and SPSM Naruto can use kunai, or we'll need proof Hagoromo can use the Rinnegan's God and Demon Paths.


You're just reaching now.

 Minato who has never shown any genjutsu prowess, to being able to magically lol break it.
To god tiers who were smacking around Juudara, and who have ON PANEl used kunai.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Needs evidence Minato can do basic things like using how to get out of illusions. Damn, next we'll be asked to prove Rinnegan Sasuke and SPSM Naruto can use kunai, or we'll need proof Hagoromo can use the Rinnegan's God and Demon Paths.



Naruto canonically stalemated Sasuke with a Kunai at the beginning of P2.

Sasuke was incredible with Shurikenjutsu in P1, and able to contend with Itachi's Shurikenjutsu in P2.

Hagoromo is the son of the progenitor of chakra, to say he can't use those things would be insanity.


But Minato has canonically stared directly into an Uchiha's eyes.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> mean, @StarWanderer believes Hashirama and VOTE Madara would have trouble with Minato.


They both shit on him with low dif. It's not even BM minato, lol


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> The Minato wank is a little bit out of control. Whoever wins this battle, it's nothing short of high-extreme difficulty.


This is exactly the point I'm making, thank you! 

The thing is, both have dangerous arsenals and both have jutsu the other would be hardpressed to counter. It's not gonna be a stomp


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 4, 2017)

Knew this was gonna happen  

Any way let's continue

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Needs evidence Minato can do basic things like using how to get out of illusions. Damn, next we'll be asked to prove *Rinnegan Sasuke and SPSM Naruto can use kunai*, or we'll need proof Hagoromo can use the Rinnegan's God and Demon Paths.



A bit of background here, I shit you not there was a time we needed to prove in a thread that a character has particular weapons... even basic ones. Bonus then the section required people prove that Kage Bunshin actually duplicates items. They duplicated kunai, no problems but now prove they duplicate forms... but prove they duplicate X. 

While I get the necessity to support claims, it gets a bit ridiculous when we're contesting a character can do basic things in the manga's universe. e.g. when you ask if there is evidence that Juubidara can walk on water like other ninjas, then you've got to realise when it is getting out of hand.

Now if there is such a heavy emphasis on proving Minato can do a basic thing in the Naruto universe and the Itachi argument hinges on it, it suggests Itachi's chances are slim in battle.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

i'm not saying one side beats the other. I'm saying it's gonna be a close match.

inb4 the fanboys


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A bit of background here, I shit you not there was a time we needed to prove in a thread that a character has particular weapons... even basic ones. Bonus then the section required people prove that Kage Bunshin actually duplicates items. They duplicated kunai, no problems but now prove they duplicate forms... but prove they duplicate X.
> 
> While I get the necessity to support claims, it gets a bit ridiculous when we're contesting a character can do basic things in the manga's universe. e.g. when you ask if there is evidence that Juubidara can walk on water like other ninjas, then you've got to realise when it is getting out of hand.
> 
> Now if there is such a heavy emphasis on proving Minato can do a basic thing in the Naruto universe and the Itachi argument hinges on it, it suggests Itachi's chances are slim in battle.


Now, how the hell does my argument hinge on it? 
I'm not even arguing for a side here, just pushing that's it's not gonna be a stomp, it's gonna be close.
I just refuted something that I saw a bit erroneous in his post


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A bit of background here, I shit you not there was a time we needed to prove in a thread that a character has particular weapons... even basic ones. Bonus then the section required people prove that Kage Bunshin actually duplicates items. They duplicated kunai, no problems but now prove they duplicate forms... but prove they duplicate X.
> 
> While I get the necessity to support claims, it gets a bit ridiculous when we're contesting a character can do basic things in the manga's universe. e.g. when you ask if there is evidence that Juubidara can walk on water like other ninjas, then you've got to realise when it is getting out of hand.
> 
> Now if there is such a heavy emphasis on proving Minato can do a basic thing in the Naruto universe and the Itachi argument hinges on it, it suggests Itachi's chances are slim in battle.



I mean, do you really think RSBM Naruto is walking around with Kunai?

Seems ridiculous.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> You're just reaching now.
> 
> Minato who has never shown any genjutsu prowess, to being able to magically lol break it.
> To god tiers who were smacking around Juudara, and who have ON PANEl used kunai.



With your logic, I'd need to prove Naruto could actually use kunai since getting RSM. 

The one reaching is you. I can understand, though, you feel if Minato somehow lacks one of the most basic things in the Naruto universe, maybe... just maybe Itachi could win.

You should re-evaluate your stance when your main argument is the equivalent of "prove Juubidara can walk on water".


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Now, how the hell does my argument hinge on it?
> I'm not even arguing for a side here, just pushing that's it's not gonna be a stomp, it's gonna be close.
> I just refuted something that I saw a bit erroneous in his post



Your pushing involves the equivalent of saying "Minato can't do something basic", that line of logic is no different to you asking of Shinjudara can walk on walls.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> With your logic, I'd need to prove Naruto could actually use kunai since getting RSM.
> 
> The one reaching is you. I can understand, though, you feel if Minato somehow lacks one of the most basic things in the Naruto universe, maybe... just maybe Itachi could win.
> 
> You should re-evaluate your stance when your main argument is the equivalent of "prove Juubidara can walk on water".


IT'S BECAUSE HE HAS USED KUNAI BEFORE, WTF. 

And it's not my main argument, I already said I'm not pushing for either side, it's gonna be a close battle strawman.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Lmfao, do you even know how Amaterasu works?
> TO AVOID IT, YOU NEED TO BE MOVING FASTER THAN YOU CAN TRACK


Which is what AY did, lmao. Your not getting it, Amaterasu has travel distance, it does n't just appear out of nowhere. AY already admitted Minato is faster than him, so the only logical conclusion is that Minato can Dodge Amaterasu too, because someone who admit inferiority in terms of speed, reacted and dodged it.



PhantomSage said:


> MOVING FASTER THAN EYE SPEED. IF HE WASN'T RUNNING AROUND, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN HIT.


Lmfao, quote me in my argument where I said such nonsense.

OK let me break it down for you:

- Amaterasu has travel distance
- Ay was able to dodge Amaterasu
-Minato was canonically reacting to Ay, and was even said to be faster than Ay.

How does that equate to Minato not dodging Amaterasu?



PhantomSage said:


> IT'S OOC FOR MINATO TO TELEPORT ROUND AND ROUND AROUND THE BATTLEFIELD TO MOVE FASTER THAN EYE SPEED.


You mean it's OOC for Minato to be smart, and think ahead. Minato is gonna have a strategically placed kunai, just in case anything happens.


PhantomSage said:


> Got it?
> bring me panels of Minato showing genjutsu prowess, or being able to Kai it. If not, I'll take it as a concession.


Show me finger genjutsu, being used on someone of Minato's caliber in terms of skill and speed then I'll believe this bs. Again ignore that finger genjustu is kai'able, lmfao


PhantomSage said:


> Lmao, wtf? I love how you ignore the part where i point out that mere peripheral vision can be utilized, as per canon.


Like munboy pointed out. Itachi needs focus to put Minato is genjutsu. He can't put him in genjutsu, if he's constantly moving around from one place to another. He's gonna have trouble keeping up with Minato,nonetheless put him in a genjutsu.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> IT'S BECAUSE HE HAS USED KUNAI BEFORE, WTF.
> 
> And it's not my main argument, I already said I'm not pushing for either side, it's gonna be a close battle strawman.



Your main argument for this not being a stomp, is to prove Minato can do a basic Genjutsu. Are you going to tell me till Oonoki broke Ay out of Madara's Genjutsu, you would assume Oonoki couldn't get out of Genjutsu?


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Which is what AY did, lmao. Your not getting it, Amaterasu has travel distance, it does n't just qppeqr out of nowhere. AY already admitted Minato is faster than him, so the only logical conclusion is that Minato can Dodge Amaterasu too, because someone who admit inferiority in terms of speed, reacted and dodged it.





The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Lmfao, quote me in my argument where I said such nonsense.
> 
> OK let me break it down for you:
> 
> ...



Wow. I made it as clear cut as possible, lmfao.

1. AMATERASU DOES NOT HAVE TRAVEL DISTANCE, IT SPAWNS IMMEDIATELY ON THE FUCKING TARGET.
2. AY DODGED IT BECAUSE HE WAS MOVING FASTER THAN THE EYE COULD PROCESS BEFORE THE FLAMES HIT, THAT'S WHY IT DIDN'T HIT HIM.
3. FOR MINATO TO BE DOING THE SAME THING, HE'D HAVE TO BE TELEPORTING ROUND THE BATTLEFIELD, OOC BEHAVIOR.

IF HE ISN'T TELEPORTING AROUND, HE GETS HIT, SIMPLE. AY WAS FIRST MOVING AROUND FAST, THAT'S WHY. 



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> You mean it's OOC for Minato to be smart, and think ahead. Minato is gonna have a strategically placed kunai, just in case anything happens.


debunked above, lmao.


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Show me finger genjutsu, being used on someone of Minato's caliber in terms of skill and speedz the I'll believe this bs. Again ignore that finger genjustu is kai'able, lmfao



I'll concede to this, however it can definitely stun him and be a nuisance, it's asinine to assume an intelligent fighter like Itachi can't take advantage of that.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 4, 2017)

Minato could throw a kunai at 35m and appear before madara just when kamui wrap initiated 
While itachi got his ass impaled by a shuruiken and cut into two by kabuto if I remember correctly. Minato destroys itachi at 25m


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Minato could throw a kunai at 35m and appear before madara just when kamui wrap initiated
> While itachi got his ass impaled by a shuruiken and cut into two by kabuto if I remember correctly. Minato destroys itachi at 25m


But he can't react to Amaterasu


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Minato could throw a kunai at 35m and appear before madara just when kamui wrap initiated


Where are you getting that that was 35 m?
No duh, teleportation > kamui, so that's obvious.
Minato got clowned by Juudara with a single kick, lmao.




professor83 said:


> While itachi got his ass impaled by a shuruiken


- He was sick, even BZ noted this lol
- He was blind
- He intended to die



professor83 said:


> cut into two by kabuto


He put down Susanoo to bait Kabuto into striking him so he could complete the Izanami loop.
Other than that, he had already kept up and parried DSM Kabuto's strikes.

He got cleaved in half with Muki Tensei because he chose to protect Sasuke instead of himself.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> But he can't react to Amaterasu


So you went on this little tangent instead of countering my argument? 
Or are you gonna argue a kunai kills Itachi?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Naruto canonically stalemated Sasuke with a Kunai at the beginning of P2.
> 
> Sasuke was incredible with Shurikenjutsu in P1, and able to contend with Itachi's Shurikenjutsu in P2.



They didn't use kunai while one was in RSM or one had the Rinnegan, right?  



> Hagoromo is the son of the progenitor of chakra, to say he can't use those things would be insanity.



Right, so we used our discretion there. The same discretion would tell us that Naruto and Sasuke carry kunai and shuriken and the same discretion would tell us Minato knows the basics of the ninja world including how to get out of Genjutsu. 



> But Minato has canonically stared directly into an Uchiha's eyes.



The Uchiha didn't use Genjutsu on him, ever wonder why?


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The Uchiha didn't use Genjutsu on him, ever wonder why?




Plot armor

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Or are you gonna argue a kunai kills Itachi?



I don't think i've ever witnessed a non fodder come close to death from a Kunai.

Unless Death is gonna argue that Itachi is fodder.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I don't think i've ever witnessed a non fodder come close to death from a Kunai.
> 
> Unless Death is gonna argue that Itachi is fodder.


Well, Danzo decided to use Izanagi on a shuriken.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Where are you getting that that was 35 m?


Around that distance . there is obviously distance between them


PhantomSage said:


> No duh, teleportation > kamui, so that's obvious.


He could throw a *Fucking Kunai at *that distance shows his striking speed
Also could physically throw a kunai against a V2 AY


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Plot armor



Or it just wasn't efficient. 

Let's compare the Uchiha who like to use Genjutsu and the ones who don't.

Madara, Sasuke, Obito vs Itachi.

The first three have amazing chakra reserves so they can afford to do a lot of extra jutsu. Itachi has chakra comparable to the women and children of the manga as per databook 3. He has shown after about 5 uses of the MS, he's out of chakra; in a fight where he used low chakra intensive jutsu like 1 katon, Genjutsu and a clone specifically made to use less chakra than a Kage Bunshin.

Now, interestingly, when Itachi had infinite chakra he swayed away from relying on Genjutsu and started using more abilities. 

Or you could say that it was to do with the fact he fought higher calibre foes who would know how to counter basic Genjutsu... unless PhantomSage wants evidence of each and every average to top tier shinobi having the ability to break out of basic Genjutsu.

Reactions: Dislike 4


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I don't think i've ever witnessed a non fodder come close to death from a Kunai.


If your wind pipe is gone then you are dead. You dont need a tbb to kill people unless you are lord orochimaru.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Or you could say that it was to do with the fact he fought higher calibre foes who would know how to counter basic Genjutsu... unless PhantomSage wants evidence of each and every average to top tier shinobi having the ability to break out of basic Genjutsu.


I already said I conceded on that, but I'm not surprised since all you do is pick at straws.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Or it just wasn't efficient.
> 
> Let's compare the Uchiha who like to use Genjutsu and the ones who don't.
> 
> ...



Lol'd at Uchiha not liking to use genjutsu, considering Sasuke has canonically used it, and managed to put 9 Bijuu's under genjutsu simultaneously.

Madara casually put Ay under 3T Genjutsu

Obito casually put Kurama under genjutsu


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I already said I conceded on that, but I'm not surprised since all you do is pick at straws.



Minato gets taken by Amaterasu... now Ay dodged it, true. What about Sasuke? Sasuke a non-sensor could see it coming and reacted, so how can a sensor like Minato not be able to react to Amaterasu when it is being formed?


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Let me clear up some things on Amaterasu.
It's instant. What people are thinking about is Enton, which actually moves the flames. 

To counter it, you need.

- A physical layer of chakra (Like KN0 Naruto)
- A Kawarimi set up beforehand (Tentacle Switch)
- Izanagi
- Moving faster than eye procession speed before it hits you.

If you slow down and don't move at that speed it can get you. Adding onto that, you have to do it BEFORE the Amaterasu strikes you. Ay was doing just that. However, Minato only teleports away when the attack is oncoming, he can't react to Amaterasu, he can only move around at crazy speeds before hand.

Itachi's Amaterasu only failed against Sasuke because
- He was well out of range of sight (The other side of the Uchiha Temple)
- Itachi was almost dead, and almost blind

And he still caught him after a round of substained bursts.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Lol'd at Uchiha not liking to use genjutsu, considering Sasuke has canonically used it, and managed to put 9 Bijuu's under genjutsu simultaneously.



They'll use it when it is needed, but they do not rely on it. The only one who did had horrible chakra levels. The only other ones who did, Shisui and Danzo, has unique illusions which were game enders even in top tier battles.



> Madara casually put Ay under 3T Genjutsu



EMS powered plus Madara had stronger chakra than other Uchiha having Indra's chakra... well that Madara had Hagoromo's chakra considering he awakened the Rinnegan. 



> Obito casually put Kurama under genjutsu



That was a natural Uchiha Kekkei Genkai which allowed them to control the Bijuu. It wasn't like the basic Uchiha Genjutsu.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato gets taken by Amaterasu... now Ay dodged it, true. What about Sasuke? Sasuke a non-sensor could see it coming and reacted, so how can a sensor like Minato not be able to react to Amaterasu when it is being formed?


Itachi's Amaterasu only failed against Sasuke because
- He was well out of range of sight (The other side of the Uchiha Temple)
- Itachi was almost dead, and almost blind


That's what I think happened.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 4, 2017)

Minato got hit with (FRS+Amaterasu) swapped places with tobirama . Amaterasu did not affect him
Minato teleported with orbs against fifth step of seizko taking absolute no damage from the orbs.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

I think it's time for me to take a break from this thread considering I got 7 alerts in a minute from this thread alone.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Minato got hit with (FRS+Amaterasu) swapped places with tobirama . Amaterasu did not affect him
> Minato teleported with orbs against fifth step of seizko taking absolute no damage from the orbs.


Yeah, and he was an Edo Tensei.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> 1. AMATERASU DOES NOT HAVE *TRAVEL DISTANCE*, IT SPAWNS IMMEDIATELY ON THE FUCKING TARGET.


And this where you know you fucked up.

Lol, and one last thing. AY DODGED IT. That itself proves that it has fucking travel, distance.
So are you suggesting that Minato who has reacted, to faster things than Amaterasu, and was canonically said to be faster than Ay, can't dodge fucking amaterasu? Lmao.

Whats next? Amaterasu, flying?



PhantomSage said:


> IF HE ISN'T TELEPORTING AROUND, HE GETS HIT, SIMPLE. AY WAS FIRST MOVING AROUND FAST, THAT'S WHY.


The fuck are you talking about? He only needs to teleport once, to evade *one* Amaterasu, lol.



PhantomSage said:


> *I'll concede to this*, however it can definitely stun him and be a nuisance, it's asinine to assume an intelligent fighter like Itachi can't take advantage of that.


Thats all I needed to hear. The chances of him catching Minato in genjutsu while Minato, would be running all over the place, is close to impossible, especially since his eyes most likely can't keep up Minato's movements, you somehow expect his finger to?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Let me clear up some things on Amaterasu.
> It's instant. What people are thinking about is Enton, which actually moves the flames.
> 
> To counter it, you need.
> ...



Itachi's health did not impact his Amaterasu, and yes Sasuke was further than 5m hence it had to travel. Sasuke could not sense chakra but could detect the chakra pressure which gives away Amaterasu... no matter his distance Minato will feel the chakra pressure and be able to sense it to and will be able to avoid it. It basically makes using Amaterasu on Minato a non-factor.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> And this where you know you fucked up.
> 
> Lol, and one last thing. AY DODGED IT. That itself proves that it has fucking travel, distance.
> So are you suggesting that Minato who has reacted, to faster things than Amaterasu, and was canonically said to be faster than Ay, can't dodge fucking amaterasu? Lmao.
> ...


The first time was because he likely saw his eye bleeding, which is shown in the scan above. Based on the mechanics of the jutsu we've seen, he theoreticall shouldn't have been able to do that.

Ay dodged it because he was moving faster than the eye could track before it hits.
Think about it this way. If you are a sniper, who shoots an instant speed bullet, would you hit someone moving that fast? No, even though it's instant you can't move your barrel fast enough to keep up.

However, if there is someone who can move that fast, even faster maybe, but he doesn't run around the whole time, it'd be likely you could hit him.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Yeah, and he was an Edo Tensei.


Edo has nothing to with minato not being affected. Even the edos could not touch the black orbs or the (FRS +Amaterasu) would turned minato into a burning pieces of dust  if he had got hit.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Edo has nothing to with minato not being affected. Even the edos could not touch the black orbs or the (FRS +Amaterasu) would turned minato into a burning pieces of dust  if he had got hit.




Bottom right panel.

Minato probably switched a brief moment after the FRS made contact, so that'd explain why it wouldn't damage him.
Unless you are pushing that it makes sense that Minato can tanks an FRS + Amaterasu

and....


PhantomSage said:


> I think it's time for me to take a break from this thread considering I got 7 alerts in a minute from this thread alone.



Bye bye


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> The first time was because he likely saw his eye bleeding, which is shown in the scan above. Based on the mechanics of the jutsu we've seen, he theoreticall shouldn't have been able to do that.


Thats baseless, Amaterasu clearly has travel distance, as the scans I showed you prove it. Again heres another scan

We see a small part of the panel where Danzo actually sees amaterasu coming, meaning that it has a travel distance. It can only appear on things that are at an extremely close range, and are stand completely still. Minato could easily fill that "gap" of range, and can easily react to it, given his ridiculous reaction feats.

Oh lets not forget, its so simple:
Ay reacted to amaterasu
Amaterasu has a certain range, and travel distance
Minato canonically reacted to AY, and was stated by the *man* to be faster than him

Minato not doing amaterasu? I don't think so, the manga and his reaction feats, beg to differ.



PhantomSage said:


> Ay dodged it because he was moving faster than the eye could track before it hits.
> Think about it this way. If you are a sniper, who shoots an instant speed bullet, would you hit someone moving that fast? No, even though it's instant you can't move your barrel fast enough to keep up.


No, a bullet nor Amaterasu is instant. Im also not sure hwy your using real life concepts to a world where mentally reacting lightning is the norm. like I said before:
- Ay reacted to amaterasu
- Amaterasu has a certain range, and travel distance
- Minato canonically reacted to AY, and was stated by the *man* to be faster than him.



PhantomSage said:


> However, if there is someone who can move that fast, even faster maybe, but he doesn't run around the whole time, it'd be likely you could hit him.


No it can't. Amateraus had travel time. Ay was able to move faster than that said travel time. Minato was said by AY to be faster than him, and we've already seen that Minato has ridiculous reaction feats, so simply off of these few *manga facts*, Minato reacts to  Amaterasu and lands one a strategically placed kunai .


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Minato probably switched a brief moment after the FRS + *Black flames *made contact,





PhantomSage said:


> so that'd explain why it wouldn't damage him.


Why? 


PhantomSage said:


> Unless you are pushing that it makes sense that Minato can tanks an FRS + Amaterasu


No he cannot. It would have destroyed him if it hit him.
Same things with the black orbs the orbs agaitates users chakra on contact while minato took them away. Had he been hit by them he could not have teleported.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Thats baseless, Amaterasu clearly has travel distance, as the scans I showed you prove it. Again heres another scan
> 
> We see a small part of the panel where Danzo actually sees amaterasu coming, meaning that it has a travel distance. It can only appear on things that are at an extremely close range, and are stand completely still. Minato could easily fill that "gap" of range, and can easily react to it, given his ridiculous reaction feats.
> 
> ...


Danzo saw the eye bleeding, lol, that's why.

I dont know why u r still talki.g bout the other examples given I debunked them already.

That's why I said INSTANT SPEED BULLET. I thought an example like that would explain it, but i guess not. 

As Rai likes to say.
PD. Not gonna bother with this thread anymore.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Why?
> 
> No he cannot. It would have destroyed him if it hit him.
> Same things with the black orbs the orbs agaitates users chakra on contact while minato took them away. Had he been hit by them he could not have teleported.


So what you are saying is LIVING Minato can tank an FRS amped with Enton? ill let you debilitate on that one


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> So what you are saying is LIVING Minato can tank an FRS amped with Enton?





professor83 said:


> No he cannot. It would have destroyed him if it hit him


Even if he was hit with as an edo he would have been destroyed. FRS hits you in a atomic level while ama burns a target until it remains to nothingness whether it is Edo or not.

Also please dont use those uchihax type of english. Not my first language.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Oh, and people like Bee or Danzo sensed the buildup which initiates before.

Last I checked, Minato needs to touch the ground to sense or something.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Danzo saw the eye bleeding, lol, that's why.
> 
> I dont know why u r still talki.g bout the other examples given I debunked them already.


You never debunked them, lol. You said a notion, and I stated that it was baseless BS, given the fact that Amaterasu was shown in all* 3* panels to have a travel distance. It only doesn't have a travel distance for things that are extremely close, and that are standing completely still. So Danzo was able to set up izanagi prior to Amaterasu hitting him, clearly shows that Amaterasu has travel distance, he was also shown *SEEING* it before it hit him.

Minato reacts to it, simply off of these few *manga* facts:
- Ay reacted to amaterasu
- Amaterasu has a certain range, and travel distance
- Minato canonically reacted to AY, and was stated by the *man* to be faster than him

- Minato not doing amaterasu? I don't think so, the manga and his reaction feats, beg to differ.



PhantomSage said:


> That's why I said INSTANT SPEED BULLET. I thought an example like that would explain it, but i guess not.


It doesn't matter if you highlight or bold the world instant, it still makes no sense. NOTHING with travel distance is instant, lol I know that and so do you. You can't make a fallacious comparison to an anime where the people are sueprhuman.



PhantomSage said:


> As Rai likes to say.
> PD. Not gonna bother with this thread anymore.


Concession accpeted. Minato wins.


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## Bonly (Jan 4, 2017)

I'd say this could go either way. If Itachi lands Genjutsu on Minato then he can land a hit that would either kill Minato or badly wound Minato enough to give Itachi the edge while on the otherhand if Minato managed to tag Itachi it'll be over for Itachi as Minato's gonna bag him when the opportunity presents itself so it depends on how the battle plays out imo

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Now, interestingly, when Itachi had infinite chakra he swayed away from relying on Genjutsu and started using more abilities.
> 
> Or you could say that it was to do with the fact he fought higher calibre foes who would know how to counter basic Genjutsu... unless PhantomSage wants evidence of each and every average to top tier shinobi having the ability to break out of basic Genjutsu.




When Itachi was an Edo tensei he never had the opportunity to use it. 

1. Against a mindless Nagato who cannot be mindfucked or controlled. Furthermore, there wasn't really an opportunity to use it assuming it would work. The only clash they had was to save Naruto/Bee, destroy CT core and at that point, Tosuka seal was the best option, not genjutsu. 

2. Against someone who closes his eyes to avoid Itachi's genjutsu. Even during that battle, the whole purpose of it was to cast genjutsu. It was even used to break out of genjutsu too. There's always genjutsu involved one way or another.


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## Dr. White (Jan 4, 2017)

Amaterasu does not travel it summons around a concentrated target in LOS. When Raikage dodged amaterasu it was because he was able to escape Sasuke's framerate with sharingan and Ama then summoned around the next thing in his line of sight which was the samurai. This is why Sasuke with Kagatsuchi could use enton behind him because he doesn't need to project it from his eyes, it is conjured similar to Susanoo. He just escapes the need to have to be looking where he wants to send amaterasu.

The whole point behind revolving door jutsu is that you take advantage of teamwork and instant switch to send the damage about to destroy your ally into an enemy who cannot dodge the attack if tagged.  Why would KCM Minato be able to tank an attack that the whole team was trying to use to kill Juubito?


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## Dr. White (Jan 4, 2017)

Bonly said:


> I'd say this could go either way. If Itachi lands Genjutsu on Minato then he can land a hit that would either kill Minato or badly wound Minato enough to give Itachi the edge while on the otherhand if Minato managed to tag Itachi it'll be over for Itachi as Minato's gonna bag him when the opportunity presents itself so it depends on how the battle plays out imo


My thoughts on this


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 4, 2017)




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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

Do people even read another persons elaboration on a subject in the NBD anymore? Or do they just tune out everything, so they can hear what they want to hear? Its getting sad.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> You never debunked them, lol. You said a notion, and I stated that it was baseless BS, given the fact that Amaterasu was shown in all* 3* panels to have a travel distance. It only doesn't have a travel distance for things that are extremely close, and that are standing completely still.
> 
> Minato reacts to it, simply off of these few *manga* facts:
> - Ay reacted to amaterasu
> ...


Yes I did, and I explained why so its not baseless.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> It doesn't matter if you highlight or bold the world instant, it still makes no sense. NOTHING with travel distance is instant, lol I know that and so do you. You can't make a fallacious comparison to an anime where the people are sueprhuman.


Hypothetically speaking. still dodging the point I see.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Concession accpeted.


Keep thinking that


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Do people even read another persons elaboration on a subject in the NBD anymore? Or do they just tune out everything, so they can hear what they want to hear? Its getting sad.


Obviously you don't.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Yes I did, and I explained why so its not baseless.


No you didn't you explained the first part, which was baseless it still doesn;t change the fact that it has a travel distance Lmao, then you just ignored my danzo and killer bee example where they were literally looking at Amaterasu before it hit them.



PhantomSage said:


> Hypothetically speaking. still dodging the point I see.


Lmfao, Minato doesn't have to physically react. He just has to mentally react similar to how Danzo, and Killer bee did. Or are you suggesting that Danzo can form izanagi prior to Amaterasu hitting him, but Minato can't teleport to his kunai despite :

- Ay reacting. and moving before Amaterasu hit him.
- reacting to AY, and even had Ay admit inferiority in terms of speed.
- I showed you multiple fucking times Amaterasu has a travel distance

Amaterasu doesn't have a travel distance, only when it's target is standing still, and is at a close range.


PhantomSage said:


> Keep thinking that


Keep reaching fham, lmfao. You still haven't "proven" me wrong so just concede.



PhantomSage said:


> Obviously you don't.


Funny how I wasn't even talking about you.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> No you didn't you explained the first part, which was baseless it still doesn;t change the fact that it has a travel distance Lmao, then you just ignored my danzo and killer bee example where they were literally looking at Amaterasu before it hit them.



That's because they sensed the buildup. Last I recalled, I think, .


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> That's because they sensed the buildup. Last I recalled, I think, .


1. Killer Bee is not a sensory type, neither is danzo, not sure what you're on. They were clearly shown to see Amaterasu coming, and Danzo was even able to set up izanagi prior, you gotta be joking if you think Minato can't mentally react to Amaterasu, after he was able to mentally react to someone as fast as Ay. Amaterasu has a travel time, just expect it bro.
2. Lmao, you just said it instantly pops up, on whatever it sees. How could someone sense something thats instant, that makes no sense.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> *No you didn't you explained the first part, which was baseless it still doesn;t change the fact that it has a travel distance Lmao, then you just ignored my danzo and killer bee example where they were literally looking at Amaterasu before it hit them.*





The Death & The Strawberry said:


> *Lmfao, Minato doesn't have to physically react. He just has to mentally react similar to how Danzo, and Killer bee did. Or are you suggesting that Danzo can form izanagi prior to Amaterasu hitting him, but Minato can't teleport to his kunai despite :
> 
> - Ay reacting. and moving before Amaterasu hit him.
> - reacting to AY, and even had Ay admit inferiority in terms of speed.
> ...


My point still stands.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> 1. Killer Bee is not a sensory type, neither is danzo, not sure what you're on. They were clearly shown to see Amaterasu coming, and Danzo was even able to set up izanagi prior, you gotta be joking if you think Minato can't mentally react to Amaterasu, after he was able to mentally react to someone as fast as Ay.


They saw the blood.
Elaboration down below.


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> 2. Lmao, you just said it instantly pops up, on whatever it sees. How could someone sense something thats instant, that makes no sense.


No, because chakra builds up, and your eye bleeds first, if you make the decision to use it. Minato has no knowledge on it, so it's likely he gets caught,


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> When Itachi was an Edo tensei he never had the opportunity to use it.
> 
> 1. Against a mindless Nagato who cannot be mindfucked or controlled. Furthermore, there wasn't really an opportunity to use it assuming it would work. The only clash they had was to save Naruto/Bee, destroy CT core and at that point, Tosuka seal was the best option, not genjutsu.
> 
> 2. Against someone who closes his eyes to avoid Itachi's genjutsu. Even during that battle, the whole purpose of it was to cast genjutsu. It was even used to break out of genjutsu too. There's always genjutsu involved one way or another.



You mean Itachi can't easily land Genjutsu from his finger tips when fighting top tier foes?!

1. But couldn't he Genjutsu, Kabuto through a remote body (Nagato) he was controlling? 

2. You realise you main reference to how Genjutsu is always involved was an example where Sasuke, a top tier, *let *Itachi cast the Genjutsu on him... do you?


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> They saw the blood.
> Elaboration down below.


First you say they sensed it, now you say they "saw" the blood. Neither of them, have seen Amaterasu in battle, how does that make any of the slightest sense? Bee never *saw* Amaterasu is action, and that didn't stop him from seeing it before it hit him, Danzo never *saw* Amaterasu in a real battle, but that didn't stop him from seeing it, and setting up izanagi prior to it hitting him.
Killer: In this scan, we literally see the panels closing up on Killer Bee's face each time, indicating that something is coming, and its getting closer and closer each time.

Danzo: We literally see him looking at Amaterasu coming

And was not only able to see Amaterasu, but he was able to set up Izanagi, prior to it hitting him.

Then theirs the Sasuke and Itachi scan, which I don't think I need to show, and is probably as obvious as it gets.
Are you suggesting that Minato who has superior feats in terms fo reactions than both of those characters, couldn't repeat what they did? Amaterasu has a fucking travel distance, Bee saw it, Danzo saw it and the Sasuke and Itachi scan showed it. Amaterasu only doesn't have a travel distance for things that are:
- at close range
- standing still


PhantomSage said:


> No, because chakra builds up, and your eye bleeds first, if you make the decision to use it.





PhantomSage said:


> Minato has no knowledge on it, so it's likely he gets caught,


He doesn't need knowledge. All he has to do is mentally react, as he's *physically *and* Mentally *reacted to faster things, and yes Amaterasu has quantifiable speed at a certain range, because it has a travel distance as I have proven and stated a plethora of times.
I'll post my elab, once again.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> *No you didn't you explained the first part, which was baseless it still doesn;t change the fact that it has a travel distance Lmao, then you just ignored my danzo and killer bee example where they were literally looking at Amaterasu before it hit them.*





The Death & The Strawberry said:


> *Lmfao, Minato doesn't have to physically react. He just has to mentally react similar to how Danzo, and Killer bee did. Or are you suggesting that Danzo can form izanagi prior to Amaterasu hitting him, but Minato can't teleport to his kunai despite :
> 
> - Ay reacting. and moving before Amaterasu hit him.
> - reacting to AY, and even had Ay admit inferiority in terms of speed.
> ...


I'll say this again, my point still stands.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You mean Itachi can't easily land Genjutsu from his finger tips when fighting top tier foes?!
> 
> 1. But couldn't he Genjutsu, Kabuto through a remote body (Nagato) he was controlling?
> 
> 2. You realise you main reference to how Genjutsu is always involved was an example where Sasuke, a top tier, *let *Itachi cast the Genjutsu on him... do you?





1. Kabuto's connection to edo tensei is not the same connection Nagato shares with his paths. Edo's remain after the user is killed, whereas the paths would immediately stop when the user is killed. The difference is clear. 

2. Doesn't take away from the fact that genjutsu was still relevant. Not to mention the whole battle was to drag Kabuto into a genjutsu in the first place.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> First you say they sensed it, now you say they "saw" the blood. Neither of them, have seen Amaterasu in battle, how does that make any of the slightest sense? Bee never say Amaterasu is action, and that didn't stop him from seeing it before it hit him, Danzo never say Amaterasu in a real battle, but that didn't stop him from seeing it, and setting up izanagi prior to it hitting him.
> Killer: In this scan, we literally see the panels closing up on Killer Bee's face each time, indicating that something is coming, and its getting closer and closer each time.
> 
> Danzo: We literally see him looking at Amaterasu coming
> ...


Here's it from the DB. 

*Spoiler*: __ 









Obito couldn't escape it either.
I already addressed the sasuke scenario, Itachi was almost dead, sick, and nearly blind, plus Sasuke was almost out his sight range.

I doubt that Minato can throw a kunai in the time it takes for it to spawn onto his body.
since Amaterasu is faster than V2 Ay, since we see Ay barely shift his body to avoid it, in the time it takes for the Amaterasu to spawn to a Samurai halfway across the room.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I already addressed the sasuke scenario, Itachi was almost dead, sick, and nearly blind, plus Sasuke was almost out his sight range.


So you ignore the killer bee and danzo example where both of them, were looking at Amaterasu coming at them? Danzo was able to set up izanagi prior to Amaterasu hitting him,if you're telling me that Minato can't mentally react to teleport to his kunai, then that's laughable at best, considering that fact that Minato outclasses him in terms of speed and reaction time by a significant margin. Alright then, lol.


PhantomSage said:


> *Spoiler*:


I don't see anything about not having a travel distance.
For the last time, Amaterasu has a travel distance.


PhantomSage said:


> *Obito couldn't escape it either.*


Oh my god this is sooo frustrating.


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Amaterasu doesn't have a travel distance, *only when it's target is standing still, and is at a close range.*


Which were both the case for Obito, lets not forget it was a surprise attack. And I've quoted this part, a good amount of times, yet you just keep looking over it.



PhantomSage said:


> I doubt that Minato can throw a kunai in the time it takes for it to spawn onto his body.


*Facepalm* I already said Minato would have a strategically placed FTG kunai, just in case anything happened. Then again he's shown to be able to throw a kuani at ridiculous speeds, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch, considering the fact that Danzo was able to set up Izanagi before Amaterasu hit him.



PhantomSage said:


> since Amaterasu is faster than V2 Ay


What? How is it faster than him, when he DODGED it?


PhantomSage said:


> since we see Ay barely shift his body to avoid it


The point is he was still able to avoid it, so someone who he admits was faster than him can't mentally react to it? Doesn't make much sense imo.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> 1. Kabuto's connection to edo tensei is not the same connection Nagato shares with his paths. Edo's remain after the user is killed, whereas the paths would immediately stop when the user is killed. The difference is clear.
> 
> 2. Doesn't take away from the fact that genjutsu was still relevant. Not to mention the whole battle was to drag Kabuto into a genjutsu in the first place.



1. But Kabuto's chakra flows through them and he controls them! Besides can't Itachi send his Yin chakra back to where the chakra source from a body which contains the user's chakra? 
focusing

2. Yes, you demonstrated that basic Genjutsu was used on a top tier when he wanted it and a reality altering illusion — not a basic Genjutsu — was required.

It seems against top tiers, Genjutsu is mostly irrelevant. I'm afraid no top tier will be owned like a Naruto who could barely focus enough to control his chakra.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 1. But Kabuto's chakra flows through them and he controls them! Besides can't Itachi send his Yin chakra back to where the chakra source from a body which contains the user's chakra?



Kabuto's chakra exists in the tag he places in their head. Unless you can show me a panel of Kabuto speaking to people INSIDE genjutsu's via Edo tensei then this discussion is over. 





> 2. Yes, you demonstrated that basic Genjutsu was used on a top tier when he wanted it and a reality altering illusion — not a basic Genjutsu — was required.
> It seems against top tiers, Genjutsu is mostly irrelevant. I'm afraid no top tier will be owned like a Naruto who could barely focus enough to control his chakra.



If no top tier can be owned by genjutsu, why do they (especially Kabuto), try so hard to avoid it? 

It's obviously because it's a threat.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 4, 2017)

25m?

Itachi is overwhelmed from start to finish.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Kabuto's chakra exists in the tag he places in their head. Unless you can show me a panel of Kabuto speaking to people INSIDE genjutsu's via Edo tensei then this discussion is over.



Kabuto's chakra is sent to the chakra tag... you mean much like how Nagato's chakra is sent to the rods. So if Itachi can send his Yin chakra, somehow, back through Pain that means he can do it through Kabuto. Meaning he should be able to do it to Kabuto since Kabuto's chakra is being sent, right? 



> If no top tier can be owned by genjutsu, why do they (especially Kabuto), try so hard to avoid it?
> It's obviously because it's a threat.



Just to avoid minor setbacks like what Bee had. Complex Genjutsu which require more chakra, yes... basic Genjutsu, no. Now keep your argument less "reachy" and address the actual point, basic Sharingan Genjutsu. I'm aware that stronger Genjutsu obviously matter more in a top tier battle.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kabuto's chakra is sent to the chakra tag... you mean much like how Nagato's chakra is sent to the rods. So if Itachi can send his Yin chakra, somehow, back through Pain that means he can do it through Kabuto. Meaning he should be able to do it to Kabuto since Kabuto's chakra is being sent, right?





If you can't tell the difference between them then there's no point continuing. 





> Just to avoid minor setbacks like what Bee had. Complex Genjutsu which require more chakra, yes... basic Genjutsu, no. Now keep your argument less "reachy" and address the actual point, basic Sharingan Genjutsu. I'm aware that stronger Genjutsu obviously matter more in a top tier battle.



Pretty sure basic sharingan genjutsu was the reason Danzo was defeated. And also, Killer Bee turned it into a "minor" setback because he had the partner method inside of him to break him out. Nobody else has that advantage, so it's highly unlikely that you can break out of Itachi's 3T genjutsu on your own without your own sharingan or partner before Itachi can land a severe blow. 

Just look at Orochimaru. He's literally the perfect example of failing to break out of a genjutsu in time.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> If you can't tell the difference between them then there's no point continuing.




I'm waiting to read "Minato's tags have chakra in them, so Itachi can Genjutsu the tags and it will affect Minato". 




> Pretty sure basic sharingan genjutsu was the reason Danzo was defeated. And also, Killer Bee turned it into a "minor" setback because he had the partner method inside of him to break him out. Nobody else has that advantage, so it's highly unlikely that you can break out of Itachi's 3T genjutsu on your own without your own sharingan or partner before Itachi can land a severe blow.
> 
> Just look at Orochimaru. He's literally the perfect example of failing to break out of a genjutsu in time.



Danzo lost to Tsukuyomi, his perception of time was altered and Sasuke had the correct eye there. That's why Tobi recited Danzo's explanation as to why Tsukuyomi>normal Genjutsu. 

Killer Bee used an advantage he'd have. Other top tiers generally have advantages which turn basic Sharingan Genjutsu into a minor set back... like teleporting away and snapping out of it if you do get caught. Though, Minato would be able to sense when Itachi is trying Genjutsu.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Naruto canonically stalemated Sasuke with a Kunai at the beginning of P2.


Freaking excuse you???


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## Android (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi has chakra comparable to the women and children of the manga as per databook 3


Really ?


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 4, 2017)

Minato just trolls the ground itachi walks on, itachi literally cannot touch him. AAAA reacted to and dodged sasukes amaterasu, meaning minato can as well considering minato>A in speed and reactions by a country mile, BM bee was also able to guard himself from the brunt of amaterasu with his tentacles, and minato has >reactions than bee for damn sure. Minato wont fall for sharingan genjutsu as he would know its coming and would simply avoid eye contact, its not all that detrimental to minatos fighting style anyway considering he spends 90% of his time behind you  with a rasengan or kunai aimed at your skull. As for susanoo, im unsure if minato could port it away from itachi, id say he can, but even if he cant he would just dodge everything itachi throws at him until he gets tired and drops susanoo, and then minato blitzes. If minato manages to get a seal on itachi prior to itachi using susanoo, susanoo is a nonfactor as minato would just FTG inside the susanoo and snap itachis neck. Any mid/long range techs itachi has are trolled by S/T barrier that neg diffs TBBs and juubi bombs, minato is too fast for itachi to tag him with anything close/mid range and is legit immune to long range combat.

Seeing a lot of people throwing aound the "well minato looked right at obito so hes obviously gonna get genjutsued here" argument again...people continue to take that way out of context in an effort to make minato look bad i see.

Minato himself stated exactly why he had to do what he did, it was due to the fact he needed to fake out obitos kamui and land a decisive blow and he was forced to aim for a timed mutual strike, we were outright told that before the exchange happened...love how people either have selective memory or just blatantly didnt read that chapter correctly. As to how that pertains to this matchup, *does itachi have kamui? Nope.* So *does minato need to fake itachi out in this manner and aim for a precisely timed mutual strike to land a hit? Nope.* Ergo, he aint getting caught in genjutsu because one time during very specific circumstances, he had to take obito head on to win.

Minato can one shot itachi outside of susanoo whenever the hell he wants by blitzing with odama rasengan so itachi cant drop ribcage even once during this fight essentially. We know tachi cant maintain susanoo for jack periods of time, and taking into account anything weaker than at least a V3 susanoo is likely dusted by FCD, itachi is gonna be bullied into maintaining a higher level of susanoo practically the entire fight, which ruined sasuke who has far better stamina than itachi could ever dream of.

Long story short, minato can troll itachis entire kit, as itachi cant lay a finger on minato unless he royally fucks up, but minato can tag itachi with laughable ease outside of susanoo which itachi cant maintain for long and severly damages him in the long run. Minato can bust the any version of susanoo below V3, and anything higher than that he simply outlasts.

*Minato mid-high diffs itachi at best.*

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## Sapherosth (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm waiting to read "Minato's tags have chakra in them, so Itachi can Genjutsu the tags and it will affect Minato".










> Danzo lost to Tsukuyomi, his perception of time was altered and Sasuke had the correct eye there. That's why Tobi recited Danzo's explanation as to why Tsukuyomi>normal Genjutsu.



Pretty sure Danzo/Obito stated that Sasuke couldn't alter the perception of time, which is what made Itachi's Tsukuyomi uniquely different. 




> Killer Bee used an advantage he'd have. Other top tiers generally have advantages which turn basic Sharingan Genjutsu into a minor set back... like teleporting away and snapping out of it if you do get caught. *Though, Minato would be able to sense when Itachi is trying Genjutsu.*




May I ask why C was caught in a genjutsu despite being a sensor?

Why did Kabuto (a superior sensor) not utilise the same method as Minato if he could just sense Itachi trying to use genjutsu? 

Minato is literally not that special at all as a sensor.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bookworm (Jan 4, 2017)

Knowing Itachi he'll try to put Minato in a genjutsu straight away. He has several methods of doing so:

1. Ephemeral
2. Crows
3. Sharingan Eye Contact

This is how the battle is likely going to go down. Just like Deidara, Minato will look into Itachi eyes at the beginning of the battle, making him suspect to genjutsu. If he doesn't look into Itachi's sharingan, Itachi can bring his hands in front of his face, using the handseals for Ephemeral to bring attention to his eyes. If he still doesn't look at his eyes he can use Ephemeral to put Minato in a genjutsu.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> Really ?



Check the stats in that databook. 


Sapherosth said:


>




Can't he send Yin chakra to locations sensors have a hard time finding? 



> Pretty sure Danzo/Obito stated that Sasuke couldn't alter the perception of time, which is what made Itachi's Tsukuyomi uniquely different.



Your certainty was misplaced: Danzo said unlike Sasuke's Genjutsu, his basic Sharingan Genjutsu, Itachi's Tsukuyomi could alter the perception of time. Danzo wondered why Izanagi did not work, Tobi answered the question with the line Danzo about Tsukuyomi.



> May I ask why C was caught in a genjutsu despite being a sensor?



Why C was caught in a strong Genjutsu by an Uchiha who had Indra's chakra? Because Sasuke used a strong illusion and his chakra strength was growing every moment. Now this is another debate if you're going to tell me Itachi's chakra power is like a Indra transmigrant's.


> Why did Kabuto (a superior sensor) not utilise the same method as Minato if he could just sense Itachi trying to use genjutsu?



Well there is Sasuke who can cast Genjutsu on 9 Bijuu with just a glance. Of course, it is a matter of using his resources, why spend the extra time molding chakra to sense while focusing battling an EMS user and an immortal MS user when he can shut off his eyes.



> Minato is literally not that special at all as a sensor.



He can't shut off his eyes, but he can still use his sensory ability to check when Itachi is gathering chakra to use for Genjutsu.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Dr. White (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy's Itachi downplay is outright atrocious.

Chakra on par with women and children despite outlasting Hebi Sauce while using MS 

Itachi can't catch a sensor because he doesn't have chakra like an Indra transmigrant despite MS Sasuke just unlocking his MS?

Forgetting that sensors must actively check for chakra in battle which is why Minato has to concentrate on his sensing. The only exception is sudden appearences of chakra ala Obito coming at Fu or Minato. Not gonna help realtime scenarios where one isn't sensing (clone ambush, genjutsu, etc) as by the time one goes to sense it will be too late. Only SM gives automatic danger sensing.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Android (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why C was caught in a strong Genjutsu by an Uchiha who had Indra's chakra? Because Sasuke used a strong illusion and his chakra strength was growing every moment. Now this is another debate if you're going to tell me Itachi's chakra power is like a Indra transmigrant's.


That happened because Sasuke managed to use his team mates attacks as diversion .
C : " _ugh ! what is ...sharingan Genjutsu ? how did i ? ....these guys are really good at taking advantage of each other's attacks as distractions ....ugh !_".
Sasuke wouldn't be able to genjutsu him with his team's distraction .


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> That happened because Sasuke managed to use his team mates attacks as diversion .
> C : " _ugh ! what is ...sharingan Genjutsu ? how did i ? ....these guys are really good at taking advantage of each other's attacks as distractions ....ugh !_".
> Sasuke wouldn't be able to genjutsu him with his team's distraction .



That's a good point. Though, I still believe Sasuke having considerably stronger chakra than Itachi also contributed to why C got taken out like he did.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Munboy's Itachi downplay is outright atrocious.
> 
> Chakra on par with women and children despite outlasting Hebi Sauce while using MS



Check the databooks. 

Outlasted Sasuke? You mean using 5 MS jutsu at well-timed intervals and not using chakra intensive jutsu otherwise while Sasuke kept spamming chakra intensive jutsu? That doesn't suggest Itachi has Naruto chakra levels.



> Itachi can't catch a sensor because he doesn't have chakra like an Indra transmigrant despite MS Sasuke just unlocking his MS?



I said he can't get Minato with a glance, only Sasuke can do that which is why *the Sage of the Six Paths *was impressed with Sasuke.



> Forgetting that sensors must actively check for chakra in battle which is why Minato has to concentrate on his sensing. The only exception is sudden appearences of chakra ala Obito coming at Fu or Minato. Not gonna help realtime scenarios where one isn't sensing (clone ambush, genjutsu, etc) as by the time one goes to sense it will be too late. Only SM gives automatic danger sensing.



>_Forgetting that sensors must actively check for chakra in battle which is why Minato has to concentrate on his sensing._
I said sensors need to do that, but also said in Minato's case he can just warp away when he sees he's in a Genjutsu.

>_The only exception is sudden appearences of chakra ala Obito coming at Fu or Minato. Not gonna help realtime scenarios where one isn't sensing (clone ambush, genjutsu, etc) as by the time one goes to sense it will be too late._
Did you forget with Karin's sensing in the Danzo battle that changes in chakra are also instantly detected, how else do you think she detected Danzo using Genjutsu on himself... btw Izanagi is harder to sense than normal Genjutsu.

You can't cry "he's downplaying Itachi" everytime you or someone else fails to support the outrageous claims made by Itachi. Two lines I took from this section automatically showed you failed to do this where you didn't actually read my post and you outright disregarded a manga occurrence that didn't fit with your line of thinking.

As for Itachi's stamina, like I said: it is a fact, look in the databooks. Also, it doesn't help to claim people downplay a character when you actively make up facts like he had more chakra levels as a healthy guy when there are no manga facts to support you. Or you call Zetsu unreliable because he saw nothing wrong with Itachi's chakra levels and only saw minor instances of the illness effecting his fighting.


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## Icegaze (Jan 4, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Non-eye contact genjutsu GG.
> 
> Fanfic Minato who fights outside of LoS is BS. He always stand in front of his opponent before making any move whatsoever and the only time he dodges is when he sees the attacks coming.
> 
> You don't see genjutsu coming......



But he hasn't fought anyone who uses genjutsu that he had knowledge of 
OP says manga knowledge neither should have any reasonable knowledge of the other 

No one makes some conscious effort to deflect a harmless Kunai that far from themselves or jump that far away from it 

Manga knowledge which is basically no knowledge means itachi could simply shimmy to avoid a Kunai only to be blitz 

That's as likely as Minato looking at itachi 

Now you give them knowledge and neither of those things are likely to happen as both will take precautions

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## Dr. White (Jan 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Outlasted Sasuke? You mean using 5 MS jutsu at well-timed intervals and not using chakra intensive jutsu otherwise while Sasuke kept spamming chakra intensive jutsu? That doesn't suggest Itachi has Naruto chakra levels.


< 5 MS uses + a shitload of his base arsenal.
< being compared to woman and children.
< used more taxing jutsu than Sasuke and outlasted him.
You're batshit crazy.




> I said he can't get Minato with a glance, only Sasuke can do that which is why *the Sage of the Six Paths *was impressed with Sasuke.


Not at all. The sharingan's whole stick is only needing a glance to genjutsu someone lol. Itachi did so to Bee, Obito controlled a Perfect Jin Hokage continuously, Naruto fell to even a casual finger wave. This is why Suna banned conflict with them 1v1 lmao.

Nothing indicates you need to be a transmigrant of Indra in order to catch people with occular genjutsu via a glance 







> I said sensors need to do that, but also said in Minato's case he can just warp away when he sees he's in a Genjutsu.


Assuming he isn't hit before he realizes it like Danzo, or before he can break it like Orochimaru. 

Assuming he can properly teleport with his chakra all messed up whether he was hit with a mind flay, hypnosis, or binding genjutsu.

Assuming teleporting will do anything unless he teleports literally miles away. We've seen his kunai spread which usually covers a radius of a dozen meters or so, maybe two dozen.



> Did you forget with Karin's sensing in the Danzo battle that changes in chakra are also instantly detected, how else do you think she detected Danzo using Genjutsu on himself... btw Izanagi is harder to sense than normal Genjutsu.


Karin wasn't battling lmao, it's not like Sasuke was the one sensing mid battle. He had her there specifically to to aid him like she did vs Bee. The part of my post literally says that sudden appearences of chakra can be sensed like Obito popping up vs Minato and Fu, so why the heck would you posit an out of combat sensor sensing Danzo literally popping ionto reality as evidence against my argument?



> You can't cry "he's downplaying Itachi" everytime you or someone else fails to support the outrageous claims made by Itachi. Two lines I took from this section automatically showed you failed to do this where you didn't actually read my post and you outright disregarded a manga occurrence that didn't fit with your line of thinking.


No lmao you literally just have an objectively biased opinion towards Itachi and blatantly downplay him at every chance you get while also ingoring manga portrayal, feats, and hype. Like you literally still believe that every Susanoo users has Totsuka and Yata. That is just one example of how ridiculous your disillusioned view of Itachi really is.



> As for Itachi's stamina, like I said: it is a fact, look in the databooks. Also, it doesn't help to claim people downplay a character when you actively make up facts like he had more chakra levels as a healthy guy when there are no manga facts to support you. Or you call Zetsu unreliable because he saw nothing wrong with Itachi's chakra levels and only saw minor instances of the illness effecting his fighting.


Lmao I called Zetsu unreliable as a narrarator beause he didn't know Itachi was sick or holding back hence his comments about Itachi being surprised, Sasuke breaking "tsukuyomi", and the like mean nothing because he was ill informed. Zetsu's "Itachi must have been injured before the fight" comment is reliable because he was making a comparison between his performance in that fight and what he knew prior to that fight, and it had nothing to do with Sasuke breaking through his jutsu as it was in regards to Itachi's usual swiftness and reactions. 

He did not see "minor" instances of sickness effecting him, he literally fucking stated Itachi must have been gravely wounded due to the disparity in quality of skill he saw. Despite being terminally ill which Itachi had to prolong his life through medicine just like Kimmimaro, and despite Itachi throwing up blood and keeling over after a couple MS uses (when he did 3 casually in the pre skip and had none of those effects) Itachi was able to outlast Sauce despite using his base arsenal like sauce was, and MS jutsu which not even shouten Itachi could use because of the chakra cost. 

You are literally deluded when it comes to Itachi which is why I usually don't like to engage you on this subject, but this shit is just getting ridiculous.

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## Dr. White (Jan 4, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> No one makes some conscious effort to deflect a harmless Kunai that far from themselves or jump that far away from it
> 
> Manga knowledge which is basically no knowledge means itachi could simply shimmy to avoid a Kunai only to be blitz
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with your overall point but eye contact and upper body contact is wayyyyy more casual than letting a kunai get close to ones self. Eyesight is literally are bread and butter for navigation of space and attacking somone. Minato will eventually have to look at his upper body to strike and if he gets forced into eye contact or falls for a clone he can be fucked. Not to mention Itachi cna use his fingers as well.

 Ninja usually meet the projectile halfway to deflect their opponents weapons, not let it get close to them before deflecting. Itachi also made a clone while doing that exact same thing vs Sasuke and his sharingan pre cog couldn't track the switch. Not to mention he chose to use the clone feint to deal with Sasuke's use of the raiton shuriken but failed to dodge the rig because of his condition.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I mean, @StarWanderer believes Hashirama and VOTE Madara would have trouble with Minato.



Some trouble due to his speed. They both are more powerful than him anyway.

But Itachi is no match for Minato. The Yellow Flash f*cks him up.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 5, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> < 5 MS uses + a shitload of his base arsenal.
> < being compared to woman and children.
> < used more taxing jutsu than Sasuke and outlasted him.
> You're batshit crazy.



I'm using facts, not Itachi fan canon.



> Not at all. The sharingan's whole stick is only needing a glance to genjutsu someone lol. Itachi did so to Bee, Obito controlled a Perfect Jin Hokage continuously, Naruto fell to even a casual finger wave. This is why Suna banned conflict with them 1v1 lmao.
> 
> Nothing indicates you need to be a transmigrant of Indra in order to catch people with occular genjutsu via a glance




Sasuke impressed the *Sage of the Six Paths *because he could get 9 targets with a glance and he specifically was surprised it was at a glance. Go on, tell me you think Itachi and all Uchiha would impress Hagoromo the same.





> Assuming he isn't hit before he realizes it like Danzo, or before he can break it like Orochimaru.
> 
> Assuming he can properly teleport with his chakra all messed up whether he was hit with a mind flay, hypnosis, or binding genjutsu.
> 
> Assuming teleporting will do anything unless he teleports literally miles away. We've seen his kunai spread which usually covers a radius of a dozen meters or so, maybe two dozen.



Danzo wasn't a sensor and Orochimaru was.

I think you need to re-read the manga. Seals like what Orochimaru put on Naruto back in part 1 or something like the Outer Path stakes mess up chakra. Genjutsu just makes you see illusions, nothing more. So yes, teleporting will be easy.

He can teleport at an adeqaute distance just to break the illusion.



> Karin wasn't battling lmao, it's not like Sasuke was the one sensing mid battle. He had her there specifically to to aid him like she did vs Bee. The part of my post literally says that sudden appearences of chakra can be sensed like Obito popping up vs Minato and Fu, so why the heck would you posit an out of combat sensor sensing Danzo literally popping ionto reality as evidence against my argument?



Nor was she paying attention, till she noticed the change at which point she started to pay attention. If someone not paying attention can detect Genjutsu which is harder to detect than any Itachi would use, then it means Itachi won't be able to covertly use Genjutsu on a sensor. Read my response to that part of the post, or if you didn't get it, just let me know and I'll elaborate.



> No lmao you literally just have an objectively biased opinion towards Itachi and blatantly downplay him at every chance you get while also ingoring manga portrayal, feats, and hype. Like you literally still believe that every Susanoo users has Totsuka and Yata. That is just one example of how ridiculous your disillusioned view of Itachi really is.



I use actual manga portryal, feats, hype and databook facts, you yourself have demonstrated you didn't quite get a few manga facts. In fact, you even outright called Zetsu, the guy who was telling us about Itachi's condition and how he was affected, an unreliable source just because he didn't support your view. Is Zetsu a Itachi-hater too?



> Lmao I called Zetsu unreliable as a narrarator beause he didn't know Itachi was sick or holding back hence his comments about Itachi being surprised, Sasuke breaking "tsukuyomi", and the like mean nothing because he was ill informed. Zetsu's "Itachi must have been injured before the fight" comment is reliable because he was making a comparison between his performance in that fight and what he knew prior to that fight, and it had nothing to do with Sasuke breaking through his jutsu as it was in regards to Itachi's usual swiftness and reactions.



Tobi elaborated how Itachi held back, no Susanoo. But Zetsu wasn't wrong about what parts of Itachi were off, Tobi just told us why.
Now when you're trying to make out that Sasuke didn't break out of Tsukuyomi, something which was foreshadowed in part 1, based on literally nothing... it suggests your pro-Itachi bias.



> He did not see "minor" instances of sickness effecting him, he literally fucking stated Itachi must have been gravely wounded due to the disparity in quality of skill he saw. Despite being terminally ill which Itachi had to prolong his life through medicine just like Kimmimaro, and despite Itachi throwing up blood and keeling over after a couple MS uses (when he did 3 casually in the pre skip and had none of those effects) Itachi was able to outlast Sauce despite using his base arsenal like sauce was, and MS jutsu which not even shouten Itachi could use because of the chakra cost.



Zetsu literally said Itachi didn't dodge what he could have dodged (a shuriken) and he coughed blood. You can't disregard the elaboration because it disagrees with your "Itachi solos" agenda.

Kimimaro was so ill he was hooked onto a machine and he died mid battle due to the illness, not because he depleted his chakra levels like Itachi. You can't compare the two. Nor can you try to equate the two because the actual explanation of Itachi doesn't suit what you want to portray.

Itachi literally died after using the last of his chakra. Sasuke was "outlasted" because he used a lot of chakra intensive jutsu. The most chakra intensive jutsu Itachi used was the MS, and 5 uses of that made him drop dead. Not even the databook, or the manga, agrees with you about his chakra level hence his measily 2.5.



> You are literally deluded when it comes to Itachi which is why I usually don't like to engage you on this subject, but this shit is just getting ridiculous.



Based on the obvious facts you missed out, perhaps you ought to read the manga again? I say that mainly for the parts you miss out like Zetsu's elaboration, Tobi's actual meaning and trying to separate what is Kimimaro's illness (so ill he was hooked onto a machine) and Itachi's (who could still win an all out battle via Susanoo spam if he took medicine and didn't spam the MS beyond his low chakra level's capability).


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## Dr. White (Jan 5, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm using facts, not Itachi fan canon.






> Sasuke impressed the *Sage of the Six Paths *because he could get 9 targets with a glance and he specifically was surprised it was at a glance. Go on, tell me you think Itachi and all Uchiha would impress Hagoromo the same.



Sasuke impressed the sage because he genjutsu'd 9 fucking Bjuu with genjutsu in a second and made them his bitches a feat acheivable only by Rinnengan type powers of control and never done to the Kyuubi.

How the fuck does that translate to "only Sasuke can genjutsu other people with a glance" when we have seen other genjutsu users with sharingan such as Itachi himself do this on panel, and have even 3 tomoe generic uisers be hyped for this. This shit has been canon since pt. 1 dude.







> Danzo wasn't a sensor and Orochimaru was.


Your point? Danzo straight up no sold an MS genjutsu meant to make him feel the sensation of burning to death without using Izanagi. Not all sensors can tell when they are genjutsu and once again such would only be countering deceptive genjutsu not mindflay, hypnosis, or binding genjutsu. Still have no positive arguments for how Minato is seamlessly breaking out of genjutsu. Chiyo straight up knew about the sharingan yet was still pressed and did not even participate in the fight vs Shoten Itachi.



> I think you need to re-read the manga. Seals like what Orochimaru put on Naruto back in part 1 or something like the Outer Path stakes mess up chakra. Genjutsu just makes you see illusions, nothing more. So yes, teleporting will be easy.



Except Jiraiya telling us that  there which is obviously a disturbance and why Kai can be used to break free of genjutsu.

Obito straight up says 

Karin straight up attributes a 
Mindflay will fuck him like it did Shi and Shi obviously could not use genjutsu in such a state.

Binding will  and break the hold/pain on his body

and hypnosis could potentially put him out (although truth be told I don't think this would work on anyone past regular Jonin level like Anbu, Zetsu, etc unless the target was already weakened.).



> He can teleport at an adeqaute distance just to break the illusion.


Except that we know once someone is caught by . Similar to what he did to the woman vs Jiraiya while going after Naruto alone/fighting Sasuke.




> Nor was she paying attention, till she noticed the change at which point she started to pay attention. If someone not paying attention can detect Genjutsu which is harder to detect than any Itachi would use, then it means Itachi won't be able to covertly use Genjutsu on a sensor. Read my response to that part of the post, or if you didn't get it, just let me know and I'll elaborate.


Yes she was dude. She was in a fight with Sasuke and actively there to serve one purpose. Sensing. She straight up did not know what was going on with IZanagi hence why she checked to see if they were in genjutsu. By that in a genjutsu it's already too late, and you still have to break it... Not to mention the other confounding variables shutting down your argument such as Karin being a top tier sensor in verse, and her once again being a third party in the fight, not a sensor who is also battling like Shi was when Sasuke ran up on him and forced eye contact.

you cannot just deny the hypthesis and claims of AO the sensor fucking general who was at Hq and still said ti could be Itachi had it not been for the range of attacks, and Konoha general Shikaku was the first to posit him. Kishi ligets bolds and italicizes the "Itachi *Is* the only one"




> I use actual manga portryal, feats, hype and databook facts, you yourself have demonstrated you didn't quite get a few manga facts. In fact, you even outright called Zetsu, the guy who was telling us about Itachi's condition and how he was affected, an unreliable source just because he didn't support your view. Is Zetsu a Itachi-hater too?


No you're just purposefully dishonest. Zetsu being surprised at sasuke breaking a gimped Tsukuyomi holds no weight because he didn't know Itachi was throwing the fight and had no KI. He had no true context to the fight. Zetsu also didn't know Itachi was terminally ill, he attributed the effects of said condition to Itachi being gravely injured before tthe fight by using a comparative analysis of what he saw before and what he saw during the fight.

So using the argument of Zetsu's surprise for Sasuke breaking a true Tsukyomi makes no sense because he was ignorant and Itachi was feigning. I'm not gonna re explain the Obito telling Sasuke Itachi was holding back and telling him the MS jutsu were BS, but that directly explains to use the context.





> Tobi elaborated how Itachi held back, no Susanoo. But Zetsu wasn't wrong about what parts of Itachi were off, Tobi just told us why.
> Now when you're trying to make out that Sasuke didn't break out of Tsukuyomi, something which was foreshadowed in part 1, based on literally nothing... it suggests your pro-Itachi bias.


No Susanoo because that was obvious since Itachi had it passively in front of Sasuke without ever going to strike him. Despite blitzing up Yata Oroichi and spiking Oro with Totuska from range mid sentence. Sasuke said the other MS uses were proof of his intent (with Kishi specifically drawing them), and Obito said it was not to harm Sauce but make him rely on Oro, hence why Itachi hit him with a gimped Tsuku and only ama'd his CS2 body so Sasuke had time to use Jutsu.





> Zetsu literally said Itachi didn't dodge what he could have dodged (a shuriken) and he coughed blood. You can't disregard the elaboration because it disagrees with your "Itachi solos" agenda.


And both of those things are the only time Itachi was hit besides the slight fireball scorching his arm. They were the xplcit indifcators of the point of Itachi's sickness. You're argument is that Itachi wasn't gravely affected by his sickness and only in so much as he couldn't dodge one trap, and completely disregarding that his internal condition was affecting hsi reactions and actively making him keel over mid fight to toss up loads of blood. It's complete fucking nonsense and makes no logical sense. It obviously was translating to the difficulty Itachi had moving ebcause of his sickness which is why Zetsu hypothesized afterwards he must have been gravely injured.



> Kimimaro was so ill he was hooked onto a machine and he died mid battle due to the illness, not because he depleted his chakra levels like Itachi. You can't compare the two. Nor can you try to equate the two because the actual explanation of Itachi doesn't suit what you want to portray.


Oh my fucking god dude. both were terminally ill. Fact. Kimmimaro had Oro/Kabuto's lab to treat him, while Itachi did not and was an S ranked criminal. He had to rely on drugs to extend his life which means by the Sasuke fight he should have already been dead. You cannot fucking ignore someone being on their deathbed from terminal illness as a major factor mitigating one's performance especially when someone ignorant of the fight attributes said condition to being gravely injured.

Kimmimaro did deplete his chakra levels lmao. He fought Naruto, and Lee. Then fought Gaara and abused his Cursed Seal which you conveniently left out has negative effects on the users chakra and constitution. Both  their foes via their trump card jutsu's and showing signs of immense bleeding internally.

this is why you get straight  's when discussing Itachi.



> Itachi literally died after using the last of his chakra. Sasuke was "outlasted" because he used a lot of chakra intensive jutsu. The most chakra intensive jutsu Itachi used was the MS, and 5 uses of that made him drop dead. Not even the databook, or the manga, agrees with you about his chakra level hence his measily 2.5.


Uhm Itahci used a shadow clone which splits up chakra, he used genjutsu like Sasuke he used a katon like Sasuke. Sasuke never used one jutsu that compared remotely to the chakra cost of 1 MS genjutsu as Shouten Itachi could use katons, and regular genjutsu but not even 1 MS genjutsu







> Based on the obvious facts you missed out, perhaps you ought to read the manga again? I say that mainly for the parts you miss out like Zetsu's elaboration, Tobi's actual meaning and trying to separate what is Kimimaro's illness (so ill he was hooked onto a machine) and Itachi's (who could still win an all out battle via Susanoo spam if he took medicine and didn't spam the MS beyond his low chakra level's capability).




Yeah I'm good on this.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 5, 2017)

Can you not be concise?


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## Icegaze (Jan 5, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> I don't disagree with your overall point but eye contact and upper body contact is wayyyyy more casual than letting a kunai get close to ones self. Eyesight is literally are bread and butter for navigation of space and attacking somone. Minato will eventually have to look at his upper body to strike and if he gets forced into eye contact or falls for a clone he can be fucked. Not to mention Itachi cna use his fingers as well.
> 
> Ninja usually meet the projectile halfway to deflect their opponents weapons, not let it get close to them before deflecting. Itachi also made a clone while doing that exact same thing vs Sasuke and his sharingan pre cog couldn't track the switch. Not to mention he chose to use the clone feint to deal with Sasuke's use of the raiton shuriken but failed to dodge the rig because of his condition.



i am glad you mentioned the sasuke vs itachi example. as shown here according to kakashis statement regarding internal attacks, no matter how tough an opponents exterior, their interior is always vulnerable.

only problems with putting minato in sasuke situation is

1) minato as shown on panel can throw more weapons than itachi in 1 go. 30+ vs 10+ shiruken when fighting against bee

2) minato has shown quicker kunai throwing speed, especially in Sm.

3) minato has shown better reactions.

these 3 things mean unlike against sasuke where itachi had the reaction and speed advantage which allowed him to pull off a clone, he is at a disadvantage here

notice how close the projectiles deflected are to itachi in that scan

any kunai that close would mean an itachi without knowledge gets blitz by minato quite quickly. i mean we have seen juubi jins with no knowledge of hirashin mark placed on them get blitz. a kunai close to the enemy does the same thing

in short unless itachi has knowledge he gets murdered after the first kunai exchange. in the same way if minato has no knowledge he looks at itachi and gets trolled

one can imagine a blitz being even more likely if itachi decides to run at minato like he did with sasuke as shown here : according to kakashis statement regarding internal attacks, no matter how tough an opponents exterior, their interior is always vulnerable.

he runs into his own death if he does that.


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## Bookworm (Jan 5, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> i am glad you mentioned the sasuke vs itachi example. as shown here water jutsu
> 
> only problems with putting minato in sasuke situation is
> 
> ...



1. Itachi doesn't need to block all of them, just the most problematic of them. Besides all Minato did was put the several kunai in his hand and threw them, why wouldn't Itachi be able to do that?

2. Itachi has shown faster hand speed with his hand seals. Obito was able to react to Minato's Kunai throwing speed at close range.

3. Itachi reacted to lightening.


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## Icegaze (Jan 5, 2017)

Trolling said:


> 1. Itachi doesn't need to block all of them, just the most problematic of them. Besides all Minato did was put 30 in his hand and threw them, odds are Itachi can do that to.
> 
> 2. Itachi has shown faster hand speed with his hand seals. Obito was able to react to Minato's Kunai throwing speed at close range.
> 
> 3. Itachi reacted to lightening.



1. i never said he does, the ones he doesnt block will therefore still travel in his direction. i.e blitz, i dont even understand what you mean by the most problematic ones. minato can launch all of them at itachi direction. therefore all of them are problematic 

2. itachi has shown he can throw less kunai. therefore slower at launching kunai. the only thing to compare to is him throwing 10+ shiruken. obito subconsciously phased. feel free to read kamui entry in DB, its something he does on reflex like blink. hardly the same as getting out of the way. 

3.  lightning that requires sasuke hand to move first. funny you say lightning though, swear kakashi already cut through lightning hence "raikiri"


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## Bookworm (Jan 5, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> 1. i never said he does, the ones he doesnt block will therefore still travel in his direction. i.e blitz, i dont even understand what you mean by the most problematic ones. minato can launch all of them at itachi direction. therefore all of them are problematic
> 
> 2. itachi has shown he can throw less kunai. therefore slower at launching kunai. the only thing to compare to is him throwing 10+ shiruken. obito subconsciously phased. feel free to read kamui entry in DB, its something he does on reflex like blink. hardly the same as getting out of the way.
> 
> 3.  lightning that requires sasuke hand to move first. funny you say lightning though, swear kakashi already cut through lightning hence "raikiri"



1. Itachi can change the trajectory of Minato's Kunai, with his own. If Minato throws all of his Kunai in Itachi's direction instead of all over the place, Itachi can just Shunshin out of the way. Besides what's to stop Itachi from throwing 30 kunai to stop Minato's?

2. Itachi has shown faster hand speed, all Minato did was throw more at once, which is a very simple thing for a ninja to do. Obito still has to be able to react to it.

3. Itachi was looking at the sky when Kirin came down, not Sasuke's hand.


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## Icegaze (Jan 5, 2017)

Trolling said:


> 1. Itachi can change the trajectory of Minato's Kunai, with his own. If Minato throws all of his Kunai in Itachi's direction instead of all over the place, Itachi can just Shunshin out of the way. Besides what's to stop Itachi from throwing 30 kunai to stop Minato's?
> 
> 2. Itachi has shown faster hand speed, all Minato did was throw more at once, which is a very simple thing for a ninja to do. Obito still has to be able to react to it.
> 
> 3. Itachi was looking at the sky when Kirin came down, not Sasuke's hand.



Itachi can't throw 30 as quickly as Minato can as shown by their feats 
Scans of anyone casually avoiding a Kunai thrown 
We have seen itachi reactions to projectiles 
He barely moves 1m away from it even when he suspects it could be rigged 

Very simple to throw several at once yet itachi has shown he throws less than Minato does at anyone time 
Minato also has better reactions and quicker hand speed 
As shown when he tossed the Kunai at point blank range against Ay
Itachi has nothing that fast hand speed wise

Sure thing .
Itachi also got split in half by kabuto so this lightning feat sounds rather made up


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## Dr. White (Jan 5, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> i am glad you mentioned the sasuke vs itachi example. as shown here dead even
> 
> only problems with putting minato in sasuke situation is
> 
> 1) minato as shown on panel can throw more weapons than itachi in 1 go. 30+ vs 10+ shiruken when fighting against bee


Nah spreading kunai in an arc is not at all the same as throwing shuriken with power at a target, Itachi was literally matching Sasuke who was summoning shuriken...

Either way it still doesn't prove anything. All of those kunai were met mid way and Itachi would not battle Minato the same as his bro. You are also forgetting that half of the time sauce was throwing shuriken vs a clone.



> 2) minato has shown quicker kunai throwing speed, especially in Sm.


Minato needs to concentrate alot for SM and already called it impractical. Minato is not blitzing with a kunai when Obito ducked his swing speed, and reacted to his throw speed casually.



> 3) minato has shown better reactions.


Barely, Itachi outreacted EMS Sauce vs Mukai tensei, and reacted to Kirin.

Regardless of the hand wave nonsense argument (kishi threw in lightning speed number to show it was nigh unavoidable) Itachi didn't raise his susanoo until after it was fired. If you come up to me with a gun and tell me you are going to shoot me, and I react after the bullet was fired, I still reacted regardless of you telling me what you were doing/needing to "pull the trigger".



> these 3 things mean unlike against sasuke where itachi had the reaction and speed advantage which allowed him to pull off a clone, he is at a disadvantage here
> 
> notice how close the projectiles deflected are to itachi in that scan


Minato can track things better than sharingan pre cog.

Minato does not have better weapon skills than Itachi, nor can he do what Sasuke did with his summoned shuriken via his kunai.

Itachi literally ran up to Kabuto who had snake sensing/sage sensing and clone feinted him. Minato is not picking up on Itachi's clone feint speed. He also did the same to Killer Bee through a katon LOS blocker.



> any kunai that close would mean an itachi without knowledge gets blitz by minato quite quickly. i mean we have seen juubi jins with no knowledge of hirashin mark placed on them get blitz. a kunai close to the enemy does the same thing


No because in pretty much any weapons clash we have ever seen the person deflects the weapons mid way, not let the kunai get a couple feet from them. Anywho once again Minato looking at Itachi's eyes/finger or getting crow feinted are just as good if not better than Minato landing a kunai close to Itachi first.[/QUOTE]


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## Bookworm (Jan 5, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Itachi can't throw 30 as quickly as Minato can as shown by their feats
> Scans of anyone casually avoiding a Kunai thrown
> We have seen itachi reactions to projectiles
> He barely moves 1m away from it even when he suspects it could be rigged
> ...



1. Itachi never tried to throw 30 Kunai. When Minato threw the kunais against Raikage or Obito it wasn't particularly fast. Itachi only suspected it could be rigged while he was in air where he couldn't change which direction he went in.

2. So your saying Itachi can't throw 30 kunai?

3. Itachi didn't even think the fight against Kabuto was a actual fight. Itachi didn't need to stop Kabuto from cutting him in half he's an Edo Tensei.


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## Icegaze (Jan 5, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Nah spreading kunai in an arc is not at all the same as throwing shuriken with power at a target, Itachi was literally matching Sasuke who was summoning shuriken...



so you think minato didnt throw them with power despite the ones at high level getting stuck to trees ?? vs barely getting there and bouncing off. Yes sasuke who is physically slower than minato with slower reactions to boot. 



> Either way it still doesn't prove anything. All of those kunai were met mid way and Itachi would not battle Minato the same as his bro. You are also forgetting that half of the time sauce was throwing shuriken vs a clone.



again this is a no knowledge scenario we are discussing. why would itachi not use kunai to deflect incoming kunai? 

this half of the time thing is your fan fic. we have no idea at what point itachi created the clone since we didnt see it till after the exchange. 




> Minato needs to concentrate alot for SM and already called it impractical. Minato is not blitzing with a kunai when Obito ducked his swing speed, and reacted to his throw speed casually.


 so much concentration that it took all of 1 panel . 

obito ducked his swing speed?? . you making stuff up. obito never physically avoided minato attack. kamui is a subconscious thing though. check Db entry




> Barely, Itachi outreacted EMS Sauce vs Mukai tensei, and reacted to Kirin.



still minato has better reactions. reacted to 8G gai moving. call it outliner all you want. would label kirin reaction the same in that case. 



> Regardless of the hand wave nonsense argument (kishi threw in lightning speed number to show it was nigh unavoidable) Itachi didn't raise his susanoo until after it was fired. If you come up to me with a gun and tell me you are going to shoot me, and I react after the bullet was fired, I still reacted regardless of you telling me what you were doing/needing to "pull the trigger".



minato reacted to 8G gai.  




> Minato can track things better than sharingan pre cog.



i know he can . 



> Minato does not have better weapon skills than Itachi, nor can he do what Sasuke did with his summoned shuriken via his kunai.



no he cant. point is itachi barely moved 1m away from it. that against a marked kunai= blitz. thats my point



> Itachi literally ran up to Kabuto who had snake sensing/sage sensing and clone feinted him. Minato is not picking up on Itachi's clone feint speed. He also did the same to Killer Bee through a katon LOS blocker.



i am saying itachi would not even be able to pull said clone feint up to begin with. 




> No because in pretty much any weapons clash we have ever seen the person deflects the weapons mid way, not let the kunai get a couple feet from them. Anywho once again Minato looking at Itachi's eyes/finger or getting crow feinted are just as good if not better than Minato landing a kunai close to Itachi first.



this is a lie. 

toroi vs fodder- the fodder used a kunai on his person to deflect it

fuma shiruken vs zabuza- he jumps over the first one and gets surprised by the feint

fuma shiruken vs deidara- barely moves 1m away from it

fuma shiruken vs itachi- uses kunai on his person to block

shiruken vs itachi- blocks with his own

shiruken vs oro- barely moves 1m away from it

the list goes on but more often than not people side step or deflect with a weapon on their person. and those who throw their weapon to block it.  dont push said weapon that much further from themselves as per my scan in itachi vs sasuke

if those were marked weapons itachi gets blitz 

i agree itachi options are just as good. again these things degree of effectiveness drop severely with knowledge. 

afterall madara using 5 clones had to hold a slower Ay down just to genjutsu. i.e maintain eye contact

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## Icegaze (Jan 5, 2017)

Trolling said:


> 1. Itachi never tried to throw 30 Kunai. When Minato threw the kunais against Raikage or Obito it wasn't particularly fast. Itachi only suspected it could be rigged while he was in air where he couldn't change which direction he went in.
> 
> 2. So your saying Itachi can't throw 30 kunai?
> 
> 3. Itachi didn't even think the fight against Kabuto was a actual fight. Itachi didn't need to stop Kabuto from cutting him in half he's an Edo Tensei.



my point exactly. why throw less against your enemy like against bee for example when more weapons thrown would mean more damage. 

yh minato tossing the kunai against Ay was so slow that he didnt even see it when he rushed at minato. hence his surprise a kunai was behind him

rigging said fuma shiruken is a basic uchiha skill though, to not expect sasuke to use such during a battle is rather silly. point is he still only jumped to avoid it. vs casually running circles round the attack 

i am saying itachi cant throw 30 as quickly as minato can yes

yh sure all that scan shows is itachi getting blitz. 

or i can say edo minato didnt need to avoid juubito attack he was an edo

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 5, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Sasuke impressed the sage because he genjutsu'd 9 fucking Bjuu with genjutsu in a second and made them his bitches a feat acheivable only by Rinnengan type powers of control and never done to the Kyuubi.
> 
> How the fuck does that translate to "only Sasuke can genjutsu other people with a glance" when we have seen other genjutsu users with sharingan such as Itachi himself do this on panel, and have even 3 tomoe generic uisers be hyped for this. This shit has been canon since pt. 1 dude.



I'm surprised you didn't say Itachi could have done it better.  But Hagoromo was impressed that he used Genjutsu like that at a glance, he wouldn've specified the Bijuu if getting them under Genjutsu was notably difficult.

It translates to only Sasuke can do what you think Itachi can do in top tier battles... even then Sasuke doesn't do this in top tier battles. 



> Your point? Danzo straight up no sold an MS genjutsu meant to make him feel the sensation of burning to death without using Izanagi. Not all sensors can tell when they are genjutsu and once again such would only be countering deceptive genjutsu not mindflay, hypnosis, or binding genjutsu. Still have no positive arguments for how Minato is seamlessly breaking out of genjutsu. Chiyo straight up knew about the sharingan yet was still pressed and did not even participate in the fight vs Shoten Itachi.



Danzo was not a sensor. A sensor not paying attention to Danzo could tell Izanagi was used... which is harder to detect than normal Genjutsu. That alone speaks volumes. Using a non-sensor to say what sensors can do does not help you out. I hope you realise the fighers pitted against Itachi in the BD are well above average i.e. Chiyo's advice for average shinobi doesn't apply.



> Except Jiraiya telling us that  there which is obviously a disturbance and why Kai can be used to break free of genjutsu.
> 
> Obito straight up says
> 
> ...



You're actually trying to argue that Itachi's Genjutsu messed up people's chakra like the Outer Path stakes? 



> Except that we know once someone is caught by . Similar to what he did to the woman vs Jiraiya while going after Naruto alone/fighting Sasuke.



You're comparing Itachi controlling a non ninja woman... to controlling Minato. If you want someone who can control high calibre foes, you need to stop confusing Sasuke with Itachi. I know they're bros, but c'mon.




> No you're just purposefully dishonest. Zetsu being surprised at sasuke breaking a gimped Tsukuyomi holds no weight because he didn't know Itachi was throwing the fight and had no KI. He had no true context to the fight. Zetsu also didn't know Itachi was terminally ill, he attributed the effects of said condition to Itachi being gravely injured before tthe fight by using a comparative analysis of what he saw before and what he saw during the fight.
> 
> So using the argument of Zetsu's surprise for Sasuke breaking a true Tsukyomi makes no sense because he was ignorant and Itachi was feigning. I'm not gonna re explain the Obito telling Sasuke Itachi was holding back and telling him the MS jutsu were BS, but that directly explains to use the context.



You're telling us to ignore the manga and ignore Zetsu's elaboration as to how Itachi's sickness affected him, while also saying Itachi held back Tsukuyomi... because you feel it doesn't portray Itachi solos. And you're saying I'm being purposefully dishonest?





> Oh my fucking god dude. both were terminally ill. Fact. Kimmimaro had Oro/Kabuto's lab to treat him, while Itachi did not and was an S ranked criminal. He had to rely on drugs to extend his life which means by the Sasuke fight he should have already been dead. You cannot fucking ignore someone being on their deathbed from terminal illness as a major factor mitigating one's performance especially when someone ignorant of the fight attributes said condition to being gravely injured.
> 
> Kimmimaro did deplete his chakra levels lmao. He fought Naruto, and Lee. Then fought Gaara and abused his Cursed Seal which you conveniently left out has negative effects on the users chakra and constitution. Both  their foes via their trump card jutsu's and showing signs of immense bleeding internally.
> 
> this is why you get straight  's when discussing Itachi.



You're comparing Itachi to the guy who literally needed a machine to keep him alive. 



> Uhm Itahci used a shadow clone which splits up chakra, he used genjutsu like Sasuke he used a katon like Sasuke. Sasuke never used one jutsu that compared remotely to the chakra cost of 1 MS genjutsu as Shouten Itachi could use katons, and regular genjutsu but not even 1 MS genjuts.



He used a shadow clone and had a long rest before the next confrontation. Genjutsu doesn't use much chakra if a 2.5/5 in stamina guy loves to abuse it.
He used one Katon... just one.

Sasuke used Orochimaru's jutsu (one of which is notable for its chakra cost), 3 powerful Katon, Chidori and more Ninjutsu... he used a lot. Itachi used 5 MS jutsu and dropped dead... Sasuke spammed a lot of MS in a single battle before and after recovery, more than Itachi. That suggests Itachi doesn't have as much chakra as his brother. Unless now you're going to tell me Itachi has more chakra than the guy who keeps up with Naruto. 


You realise when you have to merge facts (conflating Kimimaro's illness with Itachi's), make up facts (such as Sasuke facing a gimped Tsukuyomi, and Itachi having a large capacity), deny facts which don't suit your agenda (Zetsu being unreliable lol), make invalid comparisons (using a non-sensor to say how a sensor would perform, for example), make bizzare comparisons (Genjutsu distrupts chakra like the Outer Path stakes ) and distort manga context (Itachi's range control means Minato has still lost even if he teleports): that generally suggests you have a weak stance and that you're aware of the fact.

Also, for goodness sake: typing walls of text often where you're repeating yourself does not make the fact many more true if you lack the proper support to back your claim.

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## Bookworm (Jan 5, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> my point exactly. why throw less against your enemy like against bee for example when more weapons thrown would mean more damage.
> 
> yh minato tossing the kunai against Ay was so slow that he didnt even see it when he rushed at minato. hence his surprise a kunai was behind him
> 
> ...



1. Who knows why he didn't use more weapons, it's may be because that jutsu uses, specifically, that many weapons. 

2. Raikage didn't have the eyes to see it. It just like Rock Lee said, if you attack directly at high speeds your susceptible to counter attacks.

3.  Well it's a basic skill for Sasuke. Itachi thought the trick Sasuke was using was the shadow shuriken, until he noticed it was rigged at the last moment.

4. Itachi was certain that he would get Izanami off before he even actually got it off. 

5. Minato arm wouldn't grow back from Madara attacking him, it's a little bit different


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## Icegaze (Jan 5, 2017)

Trolling said:


> 1. Who knows why he didn't use more weapons, it's may be because that jutsu uses, specifically, that many weapons.
> 
> 2. Raikage didn't have the eyes to see it. It just like Rock Lee said, if you attack directly at high speeds your susceptible to counter attacks.
> 
> ...



1.  yhat jutsu is throwing Katon chakra flow weapons at the enemy why would there be a Shiruken limit . It's only limited by itachi ability to throw a number with 1 hand at that speed 

2. So someone who has boosted his reactions with RCm can't see Minato arm move while running at him 
.

3. Point is he barely jumped over a rigged Shiruken why would he move several meters away from what he thinks is a harmless Kunai ?

4. Minato had no way to know that though . So it's not any different

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## Baroxio (Jan 5, 2017)

Trolling said:


> 4. Itachi was certain that he would get Izanami off before he even actually got it off.



Are people still talking about Itachi letting down Susano to "complete Izanami" when we all know for a fact that it can only be completed if Kabuto stabbed him with the sword Sasuke was holding?

Do people still not understand such an obvious bait? There was no reason to let down Susano. In order to "complete Izanami" Itachi would have to get stabbed. Ergo, Itachi let down Susano in order to get stabbed.

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## Sapherosth (Jan 5, 2017)

Baroxio said:


> Are people still talking about Itachi letting down Susano to "complete Izanami" when we all know for a fact that it can only be completed if Kabuto stabbed him with the sword Sasuke was holding?
> 
> Do people still not understand such an obvious bait? There was no reason to let down Susano. In order to "complete Izanami" Itachi would have to get stabbed. Ergo, Itachi let down Susano in order to get stabbed.




Don't be surprised...People will only see what they want to see. 

If they cannot comprehend the fact that it was a clear bait then there's no point.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 5, 2017)

I second Baroxio's point.
I always want to point out that he fell prey to Muki Tensei because he opted to protect Sasuke instead of himself.

Another thing is that during the Juubito fight, all of the reincarnations were taking advantage of their regeneration, so Itachi may have been doing that as well, to bait Kabuto so he could analyse his abilities, and to help set up the Izanami loop.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 5, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Don't be surprised...*People will only see what they want to see.*



I cannot be the only one who sees the irony.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Bookworm (Jan 5, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> 1.  yhat jutsu is throwing Katon chakra flow weapons at the enemy why would there be a Shiruken limit . It's only limited by itachi ability to throw a number with 1 hand at that speed
> 
> 2. So someone who has boosted his reactions with RCm can't see Minato arm move while running at him
> .
> ...



1. I just looked back and it's more then 18 weapons. Lol XD. Anyway the number shuriken's isn't what important, but the katon. The jutsu may only have a certain amount of Katon in it do to constraints of the jutsu. For instance the jutsu doesn't allow for fine control over the direction of the weapons unless you use only so many. 
2. Not when he's concentrating on his face. It wouldn't matter if he saw it, there's nothing he could of done about it anyway.
3. He only thought he needed to jump.
4. Minato should of known from his previous experience with obito


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## StarWanderer (Jan 5, 2017)

Itachi felt a victim for SMT because he cant do anything about it, because he cant react to it. The Databook says so. The Susanoo hand could be created right after Kabuto piercing Itachi with SMT.


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## Suoh (Jan 5, 2017)

Im usually on the Minato side in these matches but the knowledge has me wondering. I dont think its out of the question that Itachi would have knowledge on FTG given Minato's famed usage of it. On the other hand Minato shouldnt know anything about Itachi's arsenal. Minato could legitimately get cornered via Itachi targeting the kunai and he could mistakenly look in Itachi's eyes and fall victim to genjutsu. I have to go 55/45 Itachi

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dr. White (Jan 5, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> But Hagoromo was impressed that he used Genjutsu like that at a glance, he wouldn've specified the Bijuu if getting them under Genjutsu was notably difficult.


No. Hagaromo was impressed he could get all 9 bjuu before they could notice with a glance. We didn't even see Sasuke go and make eye contact with all of them. Itachi has never shown the ability to get multiple people looking into his eyes at once. So that's why Itachi can't do it not to mention he doesn't have Rinneshari.

Stop claiming to your bullshit argument from ignorance. Not everything has to been stated to be understood. Sasuke pulled off a feat only Rinne Obito and Hashirama could do with a casual glance. That is why Hagoromo hyped him end of story.



> It translates to only Sasuke can do what you think Itachi can do in top tier battles... even then Sasuke doesn't do this in top tier battles.


No because I never claimed Itachi can fully control 9 huge ass chakra entities at the same time via a casual glance. You are using strawmen to try and escape your shit tier arguments being refuted. Genjutsu is a hax, you need to have resistance to it (ala sharingan, great genjutsu skill/chakra control, partner method, etc) to beat it. Minato at best can be ranked with the best chakra controllers which still doesn't allow him to autoneg genjutsu lmao.

Itachi negged Orochimaru with 3 tomoe genjutsu and a kunai, stop acting like only Sasuke's sharingan has bettle efficacy lmao. 





> Danzo was not a sensor. A sensor not paying attention to Danzo could tell Izanagi was used... which is harder to detect than normal Genjutsu. That alone speaks volumes. Using a non-sensor to say what sensors can do does not help you out. I hope you realise the fighers pitted against Itachi in the BD are well above average i.e. Chiyo's advice for average shinobi doesn't apply.


Your point? Danzo still had a shit ton of genjutsu resistance. Sensors need to concentrate on their sensing so they aren't going to notice their other 5 senses going awry unless specifically sensing at the moment. 

Sensing has never been used in the manga as a counter to genjutsu except by Kabuto who used no eyesight to counter it because his sensing was top tier. SM Sensing >>> regular sensing.

lmao at still clinging to Karin not paying attention to Danzo when her whole reason for being there was to sense for Sasuke and she specifically stated after Danzo reappeared that she checked her and Sasuke's chakra for disruptions..




> You're actually trying to argue that Itachi's Genjutsu messed up people's chakra like the Outer Path stakes?


te
No, stop using strawmen to try and wiggle your way out of your shit arguments. I said genjutsu disrupts the targets chakra then went on to explain how. Minato can teleport if he is in deception jutsu but that's about it, all of the other genjutsu fry the targets nervous system which leaves them open to a counter attack. 

Once again teleporting does jackshit to Itachi's ability to control the chakra inside his victim.




> You're comparing Itachi controlling a non ninja woman... to controlling Minato. If you want someone who can control high calibre foes, you need to stop confusing Sasuke with Itachi. I know they're bros, but c'mon.


What does that matter? You argument is that teleporting will break Itachi's range of controlling yin chakra in his target. That is bullshit. Why would her cranial nerve be different than Minato's lmao? The only thing teleporting would do vs a deceptive genjutsu would be increasing the range giving Minato more time to try and break it. Telepoprting in of itself would no break Itachi's control.

You keep invoking this shit argument that high tiers can't be effected by 3 tomoe genjutsu with no mechanism for it, appealing to an argument from ignorance and completely keeping a blind eye to all manga evidence.





Yo





> u're telling us to ignore the manga and ignore Zetsu's elaboration as to how Itachi's sickness affected him, while also saying Itachi held back Tsukuyomi... because you feel it doesn't portray Itachi solos. And you're saying I'm being purposefully dishonest?


That's not at all what I said dickhead. Did you even read what you quoted? I said your summation in that Itachi was only affected in so much that he couldn't dodge a shuriken does not encapsulate said actual damage Itachi was portrayed to have. He was "eaten up from the inside" and already on borrowed time. The whole point of the sharingan scene was Itachi not being able to dodge somethign he normally would be able to. Kishi is not gonna waste several scenes on that point.

I already said where I feel Zetsu's narration mean jack shit but you just keep making strawmen like fucking bushin.

Itachi canonically held back vs sasuke lmao. Read the fucking manga. Zetsu did not know Itachi was throqwing the fight, and not trying to kill Itachi 







> You're comparing Itachi to the guy who literally needed a machine to keep him alive.


What a terrible argument. Kimmimaro had the luxury of being kept on machines to keep him alive. The plan was to prolong him for as long as possible as a backup to Sasuke. He felt his time as a best vessel was through and abused his fighting and died that same day. Itachi did the same fucking thing. Itachi did not have the luxury of high tech medicine and relied on drugs to prolong his life. You're argument fails in that Kimmimaro did not need the machines to survive. He was already dying, but he obviously was capable of taking the day without the machines and battling 3 shinobi by himself.... 





> He used a shadow clone and had a long rest before the next confrontation. Genjutsu doesn't use much chakra if a 2.5/5 in stamina guy loves to abuse it.
> He used one Katon... just one.


You are so dense. A shadow clone splits the users chakra in half bruh, read all of Kakashi's fights. Both Sasuke and Itachi were using a similar base arsenal the differences were Sasuke using Raiton and 3 katons vs Itachi using fucking 3 MS jutsu and shadow clone. Itachi still outlasted Sasuke in the end and then after Kirin abused Susanoo for long enough to solo Oro's summon 



> Sasuke used Orochimaru's jutsu (one of which is notable for its chakra cost), 3 powerful Katon, Chidori and more Ninjutsu... he used a lot. Itachi used 5 MS jutsu and dropped dead... Sasuke spammed a lot of MS in a single battle before and after recovery, more than Itachi. That suggests Itachi doesn't have as much chakra as his brother. Unless now you're going to tell me Itachi has more chakra than the guy who keeps up with Naruto.


Lmao what the fuck. You are blatantly ignroing the chakra tax of MS jutsu which was so much so that Shouten Itachi couldn't use it. Sasuke was said to be extremely low on chakra befotre he summoned Kirin lmao. that's even before Itachi used his Susanoo and before he sealed amaterasu into Sasuke. 



> You realise when you have to merge facts (conflating Kimimaro's illness with Itachi's), make up facts (such as Sasuke facing a gimped Tsukuyomi, and Itachi having a large capacity),


Both were terminally ill and needed medical intervention to prolong their life. Kabuto was amazed Kimmimaro could walk and Zetsu surmised Itachi's condition was due to being greviously injured prior to the fight instead of knowing that he was eaten from the inside by disease and holding back.

Sasuke did face a gimped Tsukuyomi. This is manga fact. Itachi did not want to put him into a coma and Obito told us with Kishi illustrating that Ama and Tsuku were not meant to kill him. 



> deny facts which don't suit your agenda (Zetsu being unreliable lol), make invalid comparisons (using a non-sensor to say how a sensor would perform, for example), make bizzare comparisons (Genjutsu distrupts chakra like the Outer Path stakes )


False, I claimed Minato would not be able to teleport out of mindflay or binding genjutsu, and sensing won't help him know he's in deception jutsu. There are all things you made up lmao. 

Zwtsu was unreliable in the Tsukuyomi exhancge because he didn't know Itachi's intentions, stop being a dickhead.



> and distort manga context (Itachi's range control means Minato has still lost even if he teleports): that generally suggests you have a weak stance and that you're aware of the fact.


Lmao you still ahven't given a positive argument for how teleportation frees someone from chakra inside them manipulating their brain 



> Also, for goodness sake: typing walls of text often where you're repeating yourself does not make the fact many more true if you lack the proper support to back your claim.


I back my points up with arguments unlike you who just spews bullshit one liners

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 5, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> No. Hagaromo was impressed he could get all 9 bjuu before they could notice with a glance. We didn't even see Sasuke go and make eye contact with all of them. Itachi has never shown the ability to get multiple people looking into his eyes at once. So that's why Itachi can't do it not to mention he doesn't have Rinneshari.
> 
> Stop claiming to your bullshit argument from ignorance. Not everything has to been stated to be understood. Sasuke pulled off a feat only Rinne Obito and Hashirama could do with a casual glance. That is why Hagoromo hyped him end of story.
> 
> ...



No walls of text, be concise. If you have to make rationalisation upon rationalisation without actual facts backing you up, I'm not inclined to think you have any real standing.

Besides I'm sure we'd rather get our main points in and have the debate go quicker rather than swfit through walls of text. 

It will be quite telling for me if you can't come up with sound salient points.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 5, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No walls of text, be concise. If you have to make rationalisation upon rationalisation without actual facts backing you up, I'm not inclined to think you have any real standing.
> 
> Besides I'm sure we'd rather get our main points in and have the debate go quicker rather than swfit through walls of text.
> 
> It will be quite telling for me if you can't come up with sound salient points.


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## Dr. White (Jan 5, 2017)

StarWanderer said:


> Itachi felt a victim for SMT because he cant do anything about it, because he cant react to it. The Databook says so. The Susanoo hand could be created right after Kabuto piercing Itachi with SMT.


No fuck out of here lmao, Kabuto straight up told Itachi he made the wrong mistake protecting Sasuke instead of himself. What ridiculous reaching is this?


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## Dr. White (Jan 5, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No walls of text, be concise. If you have to make rationalisation upon rationalisation without actual facts backing you up, I'm not inclined to think you have any real standing.
> 
> Besides I'm sure we'd rather get our main points in and have the debate go quicker rather than swfit through walls of text.
> 
> It will be quite telling for me if you can't come up with sound salient points.


lmao you're not gonna tell me how to debate. Learn to read take in full arguments, and actually debate or GTFO. 

Everypoint I bring up in the "wall" is relevant, I don't put it there for fun lmao. Invoking an argument based on length is not a real argument, try again.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 5, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> No fuck out of here lmao, Kabuto straight up told Itachi he made the wrong mistake protecting Sasuke instead of himself. What ridiculous reaching is this?




Pretty sure Kabuto said that Itachi protected Sasuke which made him slower and couldn't protect himself also.


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## Dr. White (Jan 5, 2017)

ee


Sapherosth said:


> Pretty sure Kabuto said that Itachi protected Sasuke which made him slower and couldn't protect himself also.


exactly, Itachi didn't take into account that Kabuto had as much control that he could selectively kill Itachi without harming Sasuke and chose to protect Sauce instead of himself.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2017)

Minato doesn't have any known special genjutsu defense. Hard to see him winning when Itachi can put him in a tricky illusion with a crow or his finger and take him out. On the flipside, Itachi can stay away from Hiraishin tags and use a temporary v1 Susano'o to block Rasengan. It's unlikely Minato could pressure Itachi enough to wear him out before Itachi lands a genjutsu IMO.



professor83 said:


> Itachi fans logic "Since Itachi beat one Sanin he is above other Sanin"
> Taking that into account "Since Minato beat a ms warrior he is above other ms warrior".



Let's be real. Obito walked into Konoha and absolutely fucked it up. Obito left with an injured arm, but because of his actions he left: a dead Hokage, a dead trained-jinchuriki, a dozen dead ANBU, and hundreds of other Konoha ninja dead in his wake. Minato "winning" is a subjective view made primarily by Minato fans. Konoha *as a whole* was thrashed by a young Obito.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Icegaze (Jan 6, 2017)

Trolling said:


> 1. I just looked back and it's more then 18 weapons. Lol XD. Anyway the number shuriken's isn't what important, but the katon. The jutsu may only have a certain amount of Katon in it do to constraints of the jutsu. For instance the jutsu doesn't allow for fine control over the direction of the weapons unless you use only so many.
> 2. Not when he's concentrating on his face. It wouldn't matter if he saw it, there's nothing he could of done about it anyway.
> 3. He only thought he needed to jump.
> 4. Minato should of known from his previous experience with obito



Thanks for looking back it's still less than 30
Again it's chakra flow . It's like saying sasuke can only use raiton chakra flow in his sword for a limited about of times

Nothing he could have done true because it happened too fast


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## Icegaze (Jan 6, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Minato doesn't have any known special genjutsu defense. Hard to see him winning when Itachi can put him in a tricky illusion with a crow or his finger and take him out. On the flipside, Itachi can stay away from Hiraishin tags and use a temporary v1 Susano'o to block Rasengan. It's unlikely Minato could pressure Itachi enough to wear him out before Itachi lands a genjutsu IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's be real. Obito walked into Konoha and absolutely fucked it up. Obito left with an injured arm, but because of his actions he left: a dead Hokage, a dead trained-jinchuriki, a dozen dead ANBU, and hundreds of other Konoha ninja dead in his wake. Minato "winning" is a subjective view made primarily by Minato fans. Konoha *as a whole* was thrashed by a young Obito.



But when kyuubi killed minato it had nothing to do with obito anymore 
Hard to say you trashed a village while running away half way through the fight


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 6, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> absolutely fucked it up. Obito left with an injured arm, but because of his actions he left: a dead Hokage, a dead trained-jinchuriki, a dozen dead ANBU, and hundreds of other Konoha ninja dead in his wake. Minato "winning" is a subjective view made primarily by Minato fans. Konoha *as a whole* was thrashed by a young Obito.


The match ended with minato using a single kunai and rasengan. Obito fled, minato needed to deal with kurama as well and could have saved his life had he opted for kushinas option taking kyubbi back in her.

Itachi could not do a shit against obito in 9 years of Akatsuki if you want to look that way.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2017)

professor83 said:


> The match ended with minato using a single kunai and rasengan.



Actually the match ended with Minato/Kushina's corpses in order to get rid of Obito's summon.



professor83 said:


> Itachi could not do a shit against obito in 9 years of Akatsuki if you want to look that way.



Obito didn't dare attack Konoha for 9 years while Itachi was alive if you want to look at it that way.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 6, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Actually the match ended with Minato/Kushina's corpses in order to get rid of Obito's summon.


The match ended with obito getting trashed with a single kunai and rasengan .Nine tails was no longer in obitos control.
Also *Minato could have saved his life had he opted for kushinas option taking kyubbi back in her.


Sadgoob said:



			I look at it as Obito not daring to attack Konoha (or even show his face in Akatsuki) while Itachi was around.
		
Click to expand...

*
Obviously obito did not attack the village later on because he was afraid of 7 or 8 years old itachi even before itachi joined akatsuki.
Then again kakazu and hidan went to hidden leaf to take a hot bath.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Also *Minato could have saved his life had he opted for *kushinas* option taking *kyubbi* back in her.*



Yeah, if Minato was smart he could have saved his life and Kushina's  but he wasn't so he didn't.



professor83 said:


> Obviously obito did not attack the village later on because he was afraid of 7 or 8 years old itachi



Yeah, that's just a big ol' plot hole to keep Minato from looking retarded. Baby Naruto would have been easy to steal, especially since Minato didn't tell anybody about Obito.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 6, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Yeah, if Minato was smart he could have saved his life but he wasn't so he didn't.


Let's talk about how smart itachi was then 


Sadgoob said:


> Yeah, that's just a big ol' plot hole to keep Minato from looking retarded. Baby Naruto would have been easy to steal.


Plot killed minato obviously
Naruto could be saved by putting The same kyubbi inside him. Kushina could not. Plot


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 6, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> lmao you're not gonna tell me how to debate. Learn to read take in full arguments, and actually debate or GTFO.
> 
> Everypoint I bring up in the "wall" is relevant, I don't put it there for fun lmao. Invoking an argument based on length is not a real argument, try again.



Let me ask you a question: do you have _any _real arguments? By that, I mean one which doesn't rely on you hoping a wall of text with points you've repeated a number times will get the job done.

The points are the same regardless of your wall of texts:

- I'm not going to ignore Zetsu because you feel he doesn't represent the Itachi solos agenda.
- Nor will I pretend Itachi's Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi were gimped because you and a select few were unhappy with how Sasuke broke out of it.
- In fact, I'm not going to exaggerate Itachi's illness by saying it is exactly the same as the guy who required a machine to live.
- I won't even distort manga facts or context as that's what's required to give the arguments you posit substance.

If I'm wrong, I'm happy to consider it. If you decide to post a wall of text repeating everything, I'm not going to respond and take it as you don't have any actual argument.


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## Dr. White (Jan 6, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Obviously obito did not attack the village later on because he was afraid of 7 or 8 years old itachi even before itachi joined akatsuki.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Useful 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 6, 2017)

When it comes to statements, if it's about Itachi it's automatically invalid.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 6, 2017)

The irony. Even Itachi doesn't think he's as good as his fans(And I'm a fan of him) think he is.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 6, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> The irony. Even Itachi doesn't think he's as good as his fans(And I'm a fan of him) think he is.




Was clearly referencing his failure regarding Sasukes attitude toward Konoha.

Stop reaching

Reactions: Agree 3


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 6, 2017)

Dr. White said:


>


Kakazu and Hidan go to hidden leaf because their plan was to take a hot bath

Obito did not attack village after the fourth death because he was afraid of 7-8 years old itachi

"What would itachi have done if pain was ordered to go to hidden leaf in the hidden rain" May  be he would  know that with his senses and amaterasu them or totsuka them from wherever he was or may be destroy both of them just by remaining calm.

Also we know for a fact that  itachi found everything about akatsuki and Tobi and played tobi like a voilin but the plot failed on him.
Sorry to not have understood the greatness of Lord
Itachi solos


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## Troyse22 (Jan 6, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Obito did not attack village after the fourth death because he was afraid of 7-8 years old itachi




Dumbest shit I've seen in a while


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## Parallaxis (Jan 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Dumbest shit I've seen in a while


Elaborate please.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 6, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Elaborate please.





Obito who was canonically able to battle Minato...Was afraid of kid Itachi?

Crap


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Obito who was canonically able to battle Minato...Was afraid of kid Itachi?
> 
> Crap


Look the post indirectly you will understand that.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 6, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> @Troyse22 seems like you don't have a good sense of humor.



My sense of humor is lacking when it comes to people on these forums, hard to joke with people who are literally out to get you 

But I do like when Prof posts those altered manga scans, they always give me a laugh


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 6, 2017)

Dr. White said:


>



Tobi keeping his promise - despite Hidan and Kakuzu going towards Konoha and Deidara/Tobi going for Sasuke - is a grand statement to prove a point about how Itachi wins against Minato.


I am hoping this really is just trolling and that you don't _seriously _believe these "statements" say what you've been saying they mean.


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## Dr. White (Jan 6, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Kakazu and Hidan go to hidden leaf because their plan was to take a hot bath


Did Obito order them to go to Konoha? Why would Obito say that if he wasn't holding out because of Itachi, answer that.


> Obito did not attack village after the fourth death because he was afraid of 7-8 years old itachi


Obito did not have the resources including the Kyuubi and element of surprise like he did before he was beaten by Minato. Obito did not attack Konoha because of his deal with Itachi that is fact, you can argue the words on the panel all day. There is one takeway from that translation, or does his character statement not count?


> "What would itachi have done if pain was ordered to go to hidden leaf in the hidden rain" May  be he would  know that with his senses and amaterasu them or totsuka them from wherever he was or may be destroy both of them just by remaining calm.


Complete non sequitur underscoring your lack of substantial argument. 

Funny how Pein was finally sent after Naruto when Itachi was dead and post Obito quote 


> Also we know for a fact that  itachi found everything about akatsuki and Tobi and played tobi like a voilin but the plot failed on him.
> Sorry to not have understood the greatness of Lord
> Itachi solos
> /QUOTE]
> Ok? I don't even understand this but I suspect it's some form of ad hominem.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 6, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Did Obito order them to go to Konoha? Why would Obito say that if he wasn't holding out because of Itachi, answer that.


He did not attack the leaf after minatos incident?
Nine tails being the strongest of bijjus needed to be sealed last.
The akatsuki just made their move. Waiting for sth like months wouldnot hamper a shit of tobis plan when he could wait for decades. He knew itachi would die
 What would itachi have done if pain was ordered to take on hidden leaf ?
Itachi was a spy a potential threat to organization had itachi been too much of a threat obito had pain under his control 
But facts itachi could not do anything. 


Dr. White said:


> Obito did not have the resources including the Kyuubi and element of surprise like he did before he was beaten by Minato


Yes


Dr. White said:


> Obito did not attack Konoha because of his deal with Itachi that is fact, you can argue the words on the panel all day. There is one takeway from that translation, or does his character statement not count?



"If we were to fight we would both die. Even with backups the result won't change." Does this count ?


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## Dr. White (Jan 6, 2017)

professor83 said:


> He did not attack the leaf after minatos incident?
> Nine tails being the strongest of bijjus needed to be sealed last.
> The akatsuki just made their move. Waiting for sth like months wouldnot hamper a shit of tobis plan when he could wait for decades. He knew itachi would die
> What would itachi have done if pain was ordered to take on hidden leaf ?
> ...


Still could have benefitted from having the jin hence why he sent Itachi and Kisame in the first place.

He knew Itachi would die so he waited until Sasuke was groomed betted on sauce beating Diedara and then sprung Pein on Konoha after Itachi all because Itachi posed no threat to his plans?





> "If we were to fight we would both die. Even with backups the result won't change." Does this count ?


Shifting le goalpost?
Except the DB and canon back up Itachi not being a true hostile and throwing said mission. Combined with Kisame being Obito's right hand man there is reason for us to doubt said statement especially given feats and portrayal.

Obito had no reason to lie to himself and zetsu after Itachi's death. He was not a double agent nor was he talking to someone he needed to hide the truth from.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 6, 2017)

Tobi was so scared that he didn't stop Hidan and Kakuzu from going to Konoha... the two even announced it in an Akatsuki meeting... in front of Itachi. Itachi's agreement didn't deter anything. Except, Tobi, but Tobi still played Itachi because he really wanted Sasuke i.e. the next Indra transmigrant.

But it isn't as important as distorting the facts to prop up Itachi!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 6, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Still could have benefitted from having the jin hence why he sent Itachi and Kisame in the first place.


They failed.


Dr. White said:


> He knew Itachi would die so he waited until Sasuke was groomed betted on sauce beating Diedara and then sprung Pein on Konoha after Itachi all because Itachi posed no threat to his plans?


Itachi didn't do anything to destroy his plans.
Tobi feared itachis insight that was never showcased. Instead itachi was played all along.What did tobi lose by waiting 2 or So months?
"*Had tobi wanted itachi dead he would have been dead*" It a his failure to do anything speak volumes.
Hidan and kakazu went to hidden leaf announcing it in front of itachi .
"*Dont see what sick itachi would have done if pain went to hidden leaf  or how itachi would know that*?"

"Also I am of the opinion that itachi actually could have beaten obito with knowledge repeating sth like  konan  did except he would have anticipated izanagi"


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## uchihakil (Jan 7, 2017)

Ocular genjutsu can only be broken by partner method (mangafact) no bs minato breaks out
- characters with 5 in genjutsu got genjutsu'ed (orochimaru)
- characters with sensing got genjutsu'ed (cee/torune)
- characters with bijuu level chakra got genjutsu'ed (raikage)
- hell ao a high level sensor who was sensing the whole war said itachi is the only one that can cast genjutsu without being detected.

Minato is'nt superior to these guys in any of the categories above (in simpler terms, he does'nt have more chakra than ay nor have a 5 in genjutsu like oro nor is he a better sensor than ao/cee or torune)


As for how itachi counters minato
- the frogs turn to itachi's allies via genjutsu
- itachi deflects any kunai thrown at him (best shuriken user)
- itachi's v1 no sells rasengan (he does'nt need to waste chakra and use v3 when v1 does the job)
- fcd gets countered by susano (sick/dying itachi could raise susano before lightning could strike him. Lightning striking >>> fcd speed) bunta or any frog gets a susano sword up his ass

Basically what i'm saying is

Itachi beats minato


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## uchihakil (Jan 7, 2017)

people mistake kagetsuchi with amaterasu, the two techniques are different, kagetsuchi controls flames therefore when used it moves unlike amaterasu (just look at when itachi was using it on nagato and his dog summon) the flames spawn at what the user is looking at, as many before me said, minato has only ftg reacted to opponents, not ftg around the way raikage moves around (raikage being a harder target as his speed wont allow you to even see him properly to land an attack like ama).

And if worse comes worse itachi can cheat death with izanagi (not that its needed) just letting yall know he also has that


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