# Deidara vs. Sai



## DaVizWiz (Feb 8, 2014)

*Location*: Same as in manga
*Distance*: 20m
*Knowledge*: Canon
*Mindset*: Sai is pissed, Deidara IC
*Restrictions*: C0

*Stipulations*: Deidara and Sai start on the ground, Sai is equipped as he was in the war


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## Nikushimi (Feb 8, 2014)

As of the third databook...

*Deidara*

Taijutsu: 3.5
Power: 3.5
Speed: 4.5

*Sai*

Taijutsu: 3.5
Power: 3
Speed: 3.5


Assuming a significant (but reasonable) increase in Sai's stats, he should still not be drastically different from Deidara in terms of physical abilities; it might even be generous to say that Sai has become as fast as Deidara now.

Deidara was able to fend off all of Team Gai at once, without any arms, which speaks well of his ability to defend against multiple assailants who are faster than Sai. He was able to fight and evade Oonoki and Sasuke, as well.

Since he's not immortal, Deidara doesn't have a reason to deliberately refuse dodging, either.

If Sai tries that Shunshin shit again, or whatever it is he did when he took Edo Deidara's back, Deidara will be in a better mindset to avoid it. In addition, Sai's blitz never did anything to Edo Deidara in the first place; even if he pulls it off again, Deidara will just bounce back and keep his guard up, get in the air again, and retaliate.

And Sai has nothing that can even block C1, much less Deidara's higher-grade explosives.

Deidara rapes the ever-loving shit out of this novice, and prior to the war arc, he could've done it with his bare hands.


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## ARGUS (Feb 8, 2014)

Despite sai being comparable in taijutsu apart from that deidara is leagues above him in most of the other aspects,,, One hit from Sai isnt going to be enough to kill deidara 
and the minute deidara flies off he would keep on spamming bombs on sais ass 
i dont even see sai survinvg C3 let alone C4 which would comfortably give deidara the win


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2014)

> One hit from Sai isnt going to be enough to kill deidara


[1]  

*tan?to1*
ˈt?ntō/Submit
noun
noun: tanto; plural noun: tantos
1.
a Japanese short sword or dagger.

*dag?ger*
ˈdagər/Submit
noun
noun: dagger; plural noun: daggers
1.
a short knife with a pointed and edged blade, used as a weapon.


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## Jad (Feb 9, 2014)

People like to overrate Deidara avoiding Team Gai in one clash I've seen. I mean Team Gai had just finished off their doubles, and were physically exhausted, while Deidara did not show any of the same signs. That's on top of Gai and his team having to travel right back to the location at top speed. Kishimoto didn't even _illustrate_ Gai, Lee or Neji doing anything. In fact they were very cautious when they approached Deidara, Tenten was the only one illustrated in doing anything. If Sai could disappear and appear infront of Deidara and wail on them in one hit, a fresh Gai could do just the same, better, without being exhausted from the get go.​


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## Empathy (Feb 9, 2014)

Jad said:


> People like to overrate Deidara avoiding Team Gai in one clash I've seen. I mean Team Gai had just finished off their doubles, and were physically exhausted, while Deidara did not show any of the same signs. That's on top of Gai and his team having to travel right back to the location at top speed. Kishimoto didn't even _illustrate_ Gai, Lee or Neji doing anything. In fact they were very cautious when they approached Deidara, Tenten was the only one illustrated in doing anything. If Sai could disappear and appear infront of Deidara and wail on them in one hit, a fresh Gai could do just the same, better, without being exhausted from the get go.​



Um, Deidara had lost both arms from fighting Gaara, and then later Kakashi and Naruto, after having run out of clay, and spending three straight days sealing the ichibi without rest. Gai's team fighting _shoten_ Kisame and their doubles can't possibly compare. Equating Deidara's level of exhaustion to Team Gai's would be _generous_. I don't need to link the page because I have it memorized, but feel free to double check me on this.

A figure is seen dodging projectiles which is obviously Deidara, and Tenten is seen in another panel. The figure (Deidara), is then seen clashing with another figure while two others pursue close behind on their left and right. Given that Gai scores a 5 while the other two close-range pursuers, Neji and Lee (Tenten was throwing projectiles at range) both score 4.5; moreover, when the chase ends we see a panel with Gai in the middle with Neji and Lee to his left and right. 

Thus we can safely presume Gai and armless Deidara clashed while Neji and Lee trailed. When it was all over Gai was happy to sprint through the desert back to Konoha with Kakashi on his back, so there's no way any traveling tired him out. If Sai's momentary burst really was too fast for Deidara, then it'd have to be faster than anything base Gai or Sasuke could come up with. Armless Deidara totally would've killed Gai without Kakashi.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 9, 2014)

Here is the thing that bothers me - it wasn't just Sai's bird speed, it was:

1) Sai draws bird
2) Bird dashes around Dei+Sasori
3) Sai draws Ink Bros
<Dei+Sasori only now notice Sai's repositioning>
4) Ink Bros smack Deidara+Sasori

And Deidara was looking straight at Sai when he was preparing his drawing tools. Sai getting WoF-esque speed-boost for one dash I can buy. Sai getting speed-boost good enough that his ninjutsu-chain of several steps is faster than Sasuke's one shunshin? Even assuming that Sauce's shunshin was too much and without Tobi's presence Dei would've been hit - one hyped shunshin ~ 2 drawings+dash+strike? Yeah, no.


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## ARGUS (Feb 9, 2014)

Jad said:


> People like to overrate Deidara avoiding Team Gai in one clash I've seen. I mean Team Gai had just finished off their doubles, and were physically exhausted, while Deidara did not show any of the same signs. That's on top of Gai and his team having to travel right back to the location at top speed. Kishimoto didn't even _illustrate_ Gai, Lee or Neji doing anything. In fact they were very cautious when they approached Deidara, Tenten was the only one illustrated in doing anything. If Sai could disappear and appear infront of Deidara and wail on them in one hit, a fresh Gai could do just the same, better, without being exhausted from the get go.​



Deidara had no arms 
was tired after fighting gaara to begin with,, then fought kakshi and naruto 
after having no arms 
he kept up with team guy in CQC which is not even his area of expertise 
he was also outnumbered and outclassed and still managed to escape 
Moreover even Pein said that Deidara is special,,,, 
Deidara maybe somtimes overrated but his feats are quite impressive


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## Destiny Monarch (Feb 9, 2014)

People gotta stop taking that Sai blitz feat for granted, there where many inconsistencies just like it that should and hav been ignored (for the most part). Deidara is better then Sai in almost every way.


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## LostSelf (Feb 9, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Here is the thing that bothers me - it wasn't just Sai's bird speed, it was:
> 
> 1) Sai draws bird
> 2) Bird dashes around Dei+Sasori
> ...



The sad thing is that this was exactly what happened .

Yeah, is weird and a lot. But the dude did everythig in front of both and appeared behind them without them noticing.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 12, 2014)

In order words, Sai blitzes him again with less difficulty this time around?

-snip-, I'll ask that you do not post databook stats below my OP again. You made the thread stink.


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## Bonly (Feb 12, 2014)

Since it's basically the same as the manga chances are Deidara blitz again. Deidara gets up and then goes to nuke him to hell as he'll no longer be messing around and he'll proceed to avoid Sai's attacks.


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## wooly Eullerex (Feb 12, 2014)

Um, they exchange jutsu whereby Sai is killed by a steady swarm of insect bombers while deidara is temporarily hindered by ink restraints that dissipate after Sai breathes his last?


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## richard lewis (Feb 12, 2014)

Empathy said:


> Um, Deidara had lost both arms from fighting Gaara, and then later Kakashi and Naruto, after having run out of clay, and spending three straight days sealing the ichibi without rest. Gai's team fighting _shoten_ Kisame and their doubles can't possibly compare. Equating Deidara's level of exhaustion to Team Gai's would be _generous_. I don't need to link the page because I have it memorized, but feel free to double check me on this.
> 
> A figure is seen dodging projectiles which is obviously Deidara, and Tenten is seen in another panel. The figure (Deidara), is then seen clashing with another figure while two others pursue close behind on their left and right. Given that Gai scores a 5 while the other two close-range pursuers, Neji and Lee (Tenten was throwing projectiles at range) both score 4.5; moreover, when the chase ends we see a panel with Gai in the middle with Neji and Lee to his left and right.
> 
> Thus we can safely presume Gai and armless Deidara clashed while Neji and Lee trailed. When it was all over Gai was happy to sprint through the desert back to Konoha with Kakashi on his back, so there's no way any traveling tired him out. If Sai's momentary burst really was too fast for Deidara, then it'd have to be faster than anything base Gai or Sasuke could come up with. Armless Deidara totally would've killed Gai without Kakashi.



first off deidara stated himself that he couldn't escape from team gai so trying to argue the opposite contradicts the manga. please take a look at what actually transpired when team gai encountered diedara X X X

The chase lasted less than 3 pages, how that equates to him "clashing" with gai is beyond me I think we all know that if diedara had "clashed" with gai head on he would get butchered, especially when he has no arms. So please stop this ridiculous argument.

BTW diedara beats sai mid diff, sai could probably prove to be a nuisance for him but he would win w/o too much trouble.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 13, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Here is the thing that bothers me - it wasn't just Sai's bird speed, it was:
> 
> 1) Sai draws bird
> 2) Bird dashes around Dei+Sasori
> ...





LostSelf said:


> The sad thing is that this was exactly what happened .
> 
> Yeah, is weird and a lot. But the dude did everythig in front of both and appeared behind them without them noticing.



It was pretty absurd, but there are only two things to conclude based on the outcome:

1. That Sai is now _monstrously_ faster than Hebi Sasuke, Team Gai, and Oonoki.

or

2. It was just plot fueling a one-time fluke.

I think, based on Sai's stats in the third databook, his performance against Haku, and his inability to blitz prior to having an emotional meltdown, that it's more reasonable to infer the latter.



DaVizWiz said:


> In order words, Sai blitzes him again with less difficulty this time around?



No.

Unless Deidara acts carelessly with his immortality again and unless he provokes Sai by using his brother as a bomb, Sai won't be blitzing him--just like he didn't blitz Deidara, Sasori, or Shin prior to that incident.



> NikuWankMcFuckingFanboy, I'll ask that you do not post databook stats below my OP again.



*Deidara*

Taijutsu: 3.5
Power: 3.5
Speed: 4.5

*Sai*

Taijutsu: 3.5
Power: 3
Speed: 3.5


You mean like that?

Yeah, if you want any sort of compliance or cooperation out of me, you'd better address me by my proper handle. And it wouldn't kill you to say "please," either.

That disrespectful attitude of yours pretty much guarantees that I'm just going to deliberately be as passive-aggressive as I possibly can.

Having said that, there's nothing wrong with the databook stats, anyway; I'll use them as I please, and if you don't like it, you may put me on your ignore list or simply curl up into the fetal position and curse the universe. I don't really care.



> You made the thread stink.



-snip-


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Feb 13, 2014)

Wait, using my flawless A>B>C logic, if Sai can beat Deidara, and Deidara>Gaara, and that some of you think Gaara>Itachi, wouldn't that mean Sai>Itachi?


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## tanman (Feb 13, 2014)

Canon Knowledge + Actual Offensive Power + C4 Contingency Plan = Obvious Win for Diedara


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## Nikushimi (Feb 13, 2014)

Kai Jr. said:


> Wait, using my flawless A>B>C logic, if Sai can beat Deidara, and Deidara>Gaara, and that some of you think Gaara>Itachi, wouldn't that mean Sai>Itachi?



Flawless victory.

Btw, Haku blitzed Sai, and Haku (4) is half a tier slower than Deidara (4.5). Even with the ice mirrors, this is the same guy who was intercepted by Wave Country Arc Sasuke with incomplete two-tomoe Sharingan.

Which basically confirms that Sai's blitz was plot-induced.


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## Kai (Feb 13, 2014)

Witnessing bursts of ability from characters' emotional states doesn't suggest consistency beyond the momentary instances. It's not something to reevaluate tiers on. 

Here's another discrepancy that fits the bill.




Shikamaru > Kakashi in speed and reflexes


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## Empathy (Feb 13, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> first off deidara stated himself that he couldn't escape from team gai so trying to argue the opposite contradicts the manga. please take a look at what actually transpired when team gai encountered diedara Link removed Link removed Link removed
> 
> The chase lasted less than 3 pages, how that equates to him "clashing" with gai is beyond me I think we all know that if diedara had "clashed" with gai head on he would get butchered, especially when he has no arms. So please stop this ridiculous argument.
> 
> BTW diedara beats sai mid diff, sai could probably prove to be a nuisance for him but he would win w/o too much trouble.



Deidara means he isn't gonna be able to just straight-up outrun. Deidara's own statement would be a contradiction to canon because he totally did escape. He feinted twice right in front of doujutsu users. I don't know how long it'd take to blitz, but obviously three pages would be much too long. The point was Team Gai tried to apprehend him and most notably Gai wasn't fast enough to in base. You need to take a better look at your second link, because in the top right panel it's Deidara clashing with what I showed to most likely be Gai.


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## PAWS (Feb 14, 2014)

Kai said:


> Witnessing bursts of ability from characters' emotional states doesn't suggest consistency beyond the momentary instances. It's not something to reevaluate tiers on.
> 
> Here's another discrepancy that fits the bill.
> 
> ...



Kakashi thought Kakuzu was dead, Shikamaru knew Hidan had a partner.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 14, 2014)

Maybe the contents of the attach? case gave Kakuzu away early when he tried attacking Shikamaru?

I don't see what that example has to do with emotional states, though.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 14, 2014)

Regardless, it's preposterously absurd to think that Sai will be blitzing and taking out Deidara at 20 fucking meters.

Deidara throws some C1 his way. Without Kankurou there to shield with his puppets, Sai and his flimsy ink animals get blown to shit before he can do anything meaningful.

Deidara stomps, no difficulty.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 14, 2014)

It's not absurd, he already did it, from a near identical distance, when Deidara was on a bird, in the manga.

You cannot dispute clear manga feats let alone suggest they're absurd. You do not have that power you -snip-


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## asstonine (Feb 14, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> As of the third databook...
> 
> .



And you lost all credibility there, not that you had any...



DaVizWiz said:


> It's not absurd, he already did it, from a near identical distance, when Deidara was on a bird, in the manga.
> 
> You cannot dispute clear manga feats let alone suggest they're absurd. You do not have that power you fucking whining fanboy.



Yah, he got caught off guard, and hit.

Sai gets crushed, well actually blown to bits.
Either, way it's low difficulty!


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 14, 2014)

Deidara murderstomps him. As an Edo Tensei, he got cocky when he realized he couldn't die and he could spam his CO. As a living fighter, he'll be fighting very differently, like how he fought against Gaara (higher level opponent than Sai), Team Gai (while armless), and Sasuke.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 14, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Deidara murderstomps him. As an Edo Tensei, he got cocky when he realized he couldn't die and he could spam his CO. As a living fighter, he'll be fighting very differently, like how he fought against Gaara (higher level opponent than Sai), Team Gai (while armless), and Sasuke.


The manga does not support this theory, and common sense dictates not caring about injury =/= being blitzed in a several jutsu series in plain sight without reaction.

Not sure how many times this has to be discussed. He was outright blitzed in a several jutsu series with the advantage of prepped flight, distance distribution and knowledge on Sai's ability to fly and manifest art. 

Please, stop fanboying this character in my thread with baseless arguments.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 14, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> The manga does not support this theory, and common sense dictates not caring about injury =/= being blitzed in a several jutsu series in plain sight without reaction.
> 
> Not sure how many times this has to be discussed. He was outright blitzed in a several jutsu series with the advantage of prepped flight, distance distribution and knowledge on Sai's ability to fly and manifest art.
> 
> Please, stop fanboying this character in my thread with baseless arguments.


...how am I fanboying Deidara? He's on a far higher tier than Sai. He defeated Gaara in the desert, toyed with Kakashi and KNO-KN2 Naruto, and while armless took on the entirety of Team Gai while armless and was holding his own. And at full power he pushed Hebi Sasuke to his limits despite Hebi Sasuke's elemental advantage and would have won if he kept his cool. 

As an Edo Tensei, Deidara realized he could spam his strongest jutsu (C0) with impunity due to his immortality. He was _extremely_ cocky during that battle. And even then he went one on one with Onoki and held his own.

Sorry, his track record supports him turning Sai and his Choju Giga into a pile of ash.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 14, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> It's not absurd, he already did it, from a near identical distance, when Deidara was on a bird, in the manga.



Sai was not 20m away from Deidara when he blitzed.



> You cannot dispute clear manga feats let alone suggest they're absurd. You do not have that power you -snip-



No one's disputing the feat--I'm disputing your errant explanation of the feat and your absurd expectations that it can be replicated consistently here and elsewhere.



asstonine said:


> And you lost all credibility there,



>Databooks are written by the author of the manga.
>Lose credibility for using them.

Lel.



> not that you had any...



Says the guy whose rep bar is redder than Gamabunta's anus.



DaVizWiz said:


> The manga does not support this theory, and common sense dictates not caring about injury =/= being blitzed in a several jutsu series in plain sight without reaction.
> 
> Not sure how many times this has to be discussed. He was outright blitzed in a several jutsu series with the advantage of prepped flight, distance distribution and knowledge on Sai's ability to fly and manifest art.
> 
> Please, stop fanboying this character in my thread with baseless arguments.



Stop clowning Deidara with the Sai blitz and completely neglecting all of his other speed feats.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 15, 2014)

> ...how am I fanboying Deidara? He's on a far higher tier than Sai. He defeated Gaara in the desert, toyed with Kakashi and KNO-KN2 Naruto, and while armless took on the entirety of Team Gai while armless and was holding his own. And at full power he pushed Hebi Sasuke to his limits despite Hebi Sasuke's elemental advantage and would have won if he kept his cool.


I clearly explained in detail how you were fanboying him.

Is that an actual question or complete denial and ignorance of your fanboyism? 

Your feats mean absolutely nothing, they were negated the moment Sai blitzed him. 

Aside from that, they're shit. I've broken them down in plenty of threads which essentially amounted to Hebi Sasuke having the ability to blitz Deidara at that canon start battle and there being no canon evidence Gai was going all out against an Akatsuki opponent he had no knowledge on in a blurred exchange where large weapons were released by TenTen that disallowed Gai and the other two to attack at full speed after the initial exchange between Deidara and someone else as he they would be hit with friendly fire they could not perceive.

The fact that the shadows upon shunshining were so close suggests one of two possibilities [1]
1. Gai was moving at a slower pace to ensure he did not get separated from his team and to attack at a pace where they could maximize team work effectiveness because they are slower than him 
2. Neji and Lee are only arguably a pace slower than Base Gai at full speed shunshin

Which is more likely?

Aside from that, TenTen's weapons were already on the tree with the trace of Deidara's movement still left on the tree. In other words, TenTen was reading Deidara's movement and firing weapons at a pace fast enough to nearly hit him from an extended distance, suggesting she was actually predicting his movement then attempting to fire them before he got to his position otherwise she would not have fired them, I.E. projectiles need to lead a moving target to hit them. 

If TenTen was reading his movement, predicting it and nearly hitting him, holy fuck that's sad. 

Aside from that, three shadows of that team were less than 5m from Deidara's shadow, who was at that time outnumbered 6 to 1 against one ninja he knew to be a Jinchuriki with multi-shadow clone ability and concrete busting power, another to be a Mangekyou Sharingan user with ranged dimensional warping capabilities and C1 avoidance capabilities and the other team adequate enough to find his hiding position without Deidara detecting them. This suggests all three close range members of that team (Gai, Lee, Neji) with the upper hand in numbers (less urgent situation) can move roughly at the same pace as Deidara, who was armless, supremely outnumbered  and running for his life against ninja of previously described caliber. 

In other words, Calm Neji and Base Lee = 100% Serious backed against the wall Deidara in speed

He comments "There's no way I can escape now" after the exchange. Pretty much proving he was moving at his top speed, and unable to create a viable distance of separation in that exchange, proving Calm Neji and Base Lee = 100% Serious backed against the wall Deidara in speed

Base Lee and Neji = fodder in speed

I.E.

Deidara = fodder in speed



> As an Edo Tensei, Deidara realized he could spam his strongest jutsu (C0) with impunity due to his immortality. He was _extremely_ cocky during that battle. And even then he went one on one with Onoki and held his own.


This does not serve as an excuse for his inability to notice Sai drawing a bird after he essentially signaled he was coming after him immediately (the "Try it!"), hopping on it, flying behind him, drawing two men, manifesting them, then ordering them to smash the bird without a single reaction from Deidara. 

Sasori was there too, he did not have C0, he was actually quite vulnerable (no puppets). Was he also being extremely cocky?

What your suggesting disregards logic, common intelligence mind you. It was not a simple blitz, he let Deidara know he was serious, then he pulled out a pallet to draw, he drew a bird, he manifested it, he jumped on it, he bagan flying, he appeared behind Deidara, he drew on his pallet two giant men, he manifested the men, the men lunged toward the bird, punched it, destroyed it, the shockwave sends Deidara flying into a puppet he also could not react to, in other words Kankuro read the sequence more efficiently than Deidara as he moved his puppet into position before Deidara attempted to manifest any type of counter (grabbing clay from his bag, spitting out a clay minion) or Sasori (attaching threads to a tree maybe?), suggesting he's also mentally a faster reactor. 

Your counter argument: "Deidara was being arrogant."

If I had a bat I'd beat you, and everyone else spewing this ridiculous shit out of their mouth everyday at this time starting now until you learned the definition of logic, and applied it to this situation truthfully. 



> Sorry, his track record supports him turning Sai and his Choju Giga into a pile of ash.


Sorry, his track record supports him being fodderized in a several jutsu series in plain sight without a single reaction. 

If you deny the fact Sai blitzed him again, I will not address you further in this thread.


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## Ersa (Feb 15, 2014)

I think the simplest method to solving this is to assume that Edo Deidara was gimped like Edo Madara was. Thus meaning Edo Itachi and Edo Nagato showed only a tiny fraction of their true power. Meaning both should be top tiers but Kishimoto decided not to go that way because Itachi was already powerful enough. I'd say the Itachi and Nagato we saw in Edo form were akin to Shoten. Thus Sai blitzed a Shoten Deidara.

Deidara >> Sai >>> Edo Deidara.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 15, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> I think the simplest method to solving this is to *assume* that Edo Deidara was gimped like Edo Madara was. Thus meaning Edo Itachi and Edo Nagato showed only a tiny fraction of their true power. Meaning both should be top tiers but Kishimoto decided not to go that way because Itachi was already powerful enough. I'd say the Itachi and Nagato we saw in Edo form were akin to Shoten. Thus Sai blitzed a Shoten Deidara.
> 
> Deidara >> Sai >>> Edo Deidara.


This is where I stopped reading your post.

This is a debating section, I have no respect for someone who presents an argument based on assumptions. You are no different than the rest of these fanboys who have presented that "assumption" time and time again.

I literally countered that argument months ago, several people have disputed it not just me. It was a common topic in the dome not too long ago. 

Do you honestly think what you're presenting is valid information and that it would solve anything? It's been presented time and time again since the moment Tobirama suggested he and his brother were brought back slightly less than perfect, then further supported when Hashirama suggested Madara was now at "full power" when revived.

Deidara wasn't the only Edo people tried to suggest was inferior to his living self. The funny part being there are more cases of ninja that came back more powerful than their living selves' feats, so the argument was effectively deemed baseless without an argument needing to be made. 

I'm not going through countering that ridiculous "assumption" again. The bottom line is there is no basis for it, there never was.


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## Tapion (Feb 15, 2014)

The plot induced blitz is being taken seriously?

*Spoiler*: __ 

















he blows sai up.


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## Weapon (Feb 15, 2014)

Not enough Sai technique development in comparison to Deidera, and I'm fairly sure that Deidera is more than qualified above Root A level. 

Also, Edo Deidera in his case is stronger than when he was alive.


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## Tom Servo (Feb 15, 2014)

So why exactly does Deidara consider Sasori to be stronger than him?

I mean with the amount of firepower he has an all...


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## Weapon (Feb 15, 2014)

godzillafan430 said:


> So why exactly does Deidara consider Sasori to be stronger than him?
> 
> I mean with the amount of firepower he has an all...



Sasori was double Deidera's age, giving him more experience and maturity already. Sasori is among the top tier when it comes to intelligence too. 

His superior defence and sustain [Living + Chakra wise] in comparison to Deidera was over 3-4x times as strong plus the fact that his abilities require multitasking and concentration makes him trump Deidera already.

Sasori took out nations who's accumulated power all up would of been the equivalent to about 5-10 Deidera's. Not to mention, Sasori had to go right in when taking out these places he couldn't just stand back and whip out a kamikaze bomb like Deidera can and destroy them (Which would of consumed most of his chakra) 

Sasori also can switch from close to ranged combat, both compensating eachother in any battle stipulation.

Deidera relies on ranged to win his battles mainly, and he doesn't have as much diversity in battle strategies and abilities in comparison to Sasori.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 15, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> I think the simplest method to solving this is to assume that Edo Deidara was gimped like Edo Madara was. Thus meaning Edo Itachi and Edo Nagato showed only a tiny fraction of their true power. Meaning both should be top tiers but Kishimoto decided not to go that way because Itachi was already powerful enough. I'd say the Itachi and Nagato we saw in Edo form were akin to Shoten. Thus Sai blitzed a Shoten Deidara.
> 
> Deidara >> Sai >>> Edo Deidara.



I don't agree with that.

As far as I can tell, the Edo Tensei are no weaker than the original shinobi--in fact, they're stronger due to having no chakra limit.

Sai blitzing Deidara was just PIS, plain and simple.



Starraver said:


> The plot induced blitz is being taken seriously?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Pretty much all that needs to be said here.



godzillafan430 said:


> So why exactly does Deidara consider Sasori to be stronger than him?
> 
> I mean with the amount of firepower he has an all...



1. Sasori's puppets can fly/levitate, so Deidara's usual strategy of staying out of reach won't work against him.
2. One scratch from Sasori is enough to get poisoned, and his poisoning=immediate paralysis and slow, agonizing death.
3. Sandaime Kazekage>Gaara.
4. The hundred puppets>a country.
5. It's all poisonous.

Pretty easy to see why Deidara deferred to Sasori as his superior, aside from the obvious difference in age and experience.



DaVizWiz said:


> Base Lee and Neji = fodder in speed
> 
> I.E.
> 
> Deidara = fodder in speed



Lee and Neji are "fodder in speed"? Two Taijutsu-specialists who focus largely on speed?

Even ignoring the fact that they both had a 4.5 as of the third databook (putting them in the same ballpark as Deidara, Kakashi, and Sasuke), that's just a downright laughable thing to say. Anyone who has read this manga other than you could tell you those two have always been fast. I have no idea what's writing your headcanon, but it evidently isn't Kishimoto.



DaVizWiz said:


> If I had a bat I'd beat you, and everyone else spewing this ridiculous shit out of their mouth everyday at this time starting now until you learned the definition of logic, and applied it to this situation truthfully.





Pure gold.

When you get back from your time-out, I hope you describe at length how you wish to physically punish the people you don't like on the internet. I'm sure it will be intelligent and taken 100% seriously by all of us.


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## Rios (Feb 15, 2014)

Deidara beats Sasori without a problem unless you are going to tell me his bulky home puppet can fly too.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 15, 2014)

Rios said:


> Deidara beats Sasori without a problem unless you are going to tell me his bulky home puppet can fly too.



Satetsu and the hundred puppets are more than enough to compete with Deidara while Sasori intercepts his bombs with fodder puppets from a comfortable distance.

Sasori has greater stamina, too.


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## LostSelf (Feb 15, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't agree with that.
> 
> As far as I can tell, the Edo Tensei are no weaker than the original shinobi--in fact, they're stronger due to having no chakra limit.
> 
> Sai blitzing Deidara was just PIS, plain and simple.



Tobirama and Hashirama weren't brought back at full power twice. Not even Orochimaru with senju cells could. Deidara coming weaker in almost everything (Even if not by much) is plausible.

But the unlimited chakra and unparallaled regeneration makes up for that if this is true.

Sai blitzing Deidara could also mean plot, but in favor of Sai. All this will of fire or Nakama power thing.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 15, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Tobirama and Hashirama weren't brought back at full power twice. Not even Orochimaru with senju cells could. Deidara coming weaker in almost everything (Even if not by much) is plausible.



The Senju Bros. were part of a different Edo Tensei--Orochimaru's Edo Tensei. In addition, they are both stronger than Deidara by a rather significant margin, though it's not really clear HOW their power was decreased, either.

Edo Nagato ended up being stronger than Pain. Edo Itachi ended up being stronger than Itachi. Whatever marginal power difference exists, immortality is more than compensation for it, although I don't see how that power difference would impact reaction time in the first place.



> But the unlimited chakra and unparallaled regeneration makes up for that if this is true.
> 
> Sai blitzing Deidara could also mean plot, but in favor of Sai. All this will of fire or Nakama power thing.



That's basically all it was.

It's not complicated.


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## LostSelf (Feb 15, 2014)

Before proceeding, i should say that i do say Deidara wins this.



Nikushimi said:


> The Senju Bros. were part of a different Edo Tensei--Orochimaru's Edo Tensei. In addition, they are both stronger than Deidara by a rather significant margin, though it's not really clear HOW their power was decreased, either.



But Edo Tensei mechanichs are the same. Orochimaru made it stronger than Kabuto, to the point of restraining Tobirama, when Kabuto's control was resisted and auto cancelled, plus his Edos showed worse performance than when they were alive. There are ample of examples out there that makes the theory of Edo not coming at full power something plausible.

However you have a point, because Nagato and Itachi couldn't resist it and they are in the same league as Tobirama, if not higher. But he himself stated that they weren't brought back at full power, if he wasn't, then Nagato and Madara couldn't have been either.



> Edo Nagato ended up being stronger than Pain. Edo Itachi ended up being stronger than Itachi. Whatever marginal power difference exists, immortality is more than compensation for it, although I don't see how that power difference would impact reaction time in the first place.



Nagato would've been weaker than in his prime version or the living version of that Edo Nagato since you cannot even summon Gedo Mazo with a fake Rinnegan.

Edo Nagato was stronger than the paths. About Itachi i don't know since he was sick, and in Edo Tensei we saw a better version because ilness was not affecting him. Living Itachi could've been stronger too, but still with the disadvantage of not having unlimited chakra and regen.



> That's basically all it was.
> 
> It's not complicated.



But even with how much bullshit that feat was, it is still a feat .

However, just because of this doesn't mean he will beat Deidara. Most of the people saying he loses here are the ones that claims almost everybody will blitz him.


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## Dominus (Feb 15, 2014)

Ōnoki said that Mū's power is _*exactly*_ the same as when he was alive.


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## LostSelf (Feb 15, 2014)

Mū's ninjutsu you mean?


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## Dominus (Feb 15, 2014)

Yeah, he was talking about Jinton.


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## joshhookway (Feb 15, 2014)

Deidara blows the shit out of sai


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## PAWS (Feb 15, 2014)

Ok sai got a hit on Deidara and he hit the floor hard, this guy has a high pain tolerance and he would just get back on his bird. All of Sai's ink attacks are blown apart but tiny spider explosives.


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## LostSelf (Feb 15, 2014)

That doesn't mean Mū is still as powerful, for example, Jinton might not take too much of Mū to see the diference between a prime version and a supposed watered version of himself.

To put it more clear. If Jinton, for example, takes 30% of Mū's chakra, even if Mū has 70% of his power, it won't matter, the 30% is going to be something he can handle and create it with the same power as if he were at 100%.

Now, the difference would be notable if Mū tried to use something that bypasses his rusty version used in the example.


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## Dominus (Feb 15, 2014)

I believe you're overthinking this.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 15, 2014)

The only three Edo Tensei who weren't at Full Power were Madara, Hashirama, and Tobirama. Orochimaru's binding and control is less than Hashirama's and Tobirama's version, while Madara just had so much power Edo Tensei couldn't bring it out fully. All other Edo Tensei's though were at full power, or even stronger. Edo Nagato was stronger than Pain, Edo Itachi was stronger than Itachi was in life, all the Akatsuki, Kages, and 'famous' shinobi were at full power too.


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## Ersa (Feb 15, 2014)

Pulling the plot card is a weak excuse. We look for explanations before we pull the plot card, unlike crap like Naruto and Sasuke taking down Juubito with the power of feelings. Edo Tensei have been known to be weaker then their living counterparts.

Mu's ninjutsu being the same has nothing to do with actual power. KCM Naruto went into the Nagato fight weakened and yet was still able to fire off two full power FRS. Kakashi noted Shoten Itachi's Katon was pretty close to the real thing. Deidara's Edo feats completely contradict his living feats, he was blitzed by someone Sakura blitzed. Nagato was brought back as a cripple so the possibility that the other Edo forms were weakened is very much possible. Itachi may still have been sick for all we know but Edo regen kept his chakra levels at a level where it didn't show. Remember Itachi was holding up decently in most of his fights while alive, it was only until he was on his death-bed that it started to show.

Base Jiraiya > Prime Healthy Itachi >> Edo Itachi >> Sick Itachi


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## LostSelf (Feb 15, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> *Mu's ninjutsu being the same has nothing to do with actual power. KCM Naruto went into the Nagato fight weakened and yet was still able to fire off two full power FRS. Kakashi noted Shoten Itachi's Katon was pretty close to the real thing. Deidara's Edo feats completely contradict his living feats, he was blitzed by someone Sakura blitzed. Nagato was brought back as a cripple so the possibility that the other Edo forms were weakened is very much possible. Itachi may still have been sick for all we know but Edo regen kept his chakra levels at a level where it didn't show. Remember Itachi was holding up decently in most of his fights while alive, it was only until he was on his death-bed that it started to show.*



This. 

I use this quote to respond to *Authoritah*. It's not overthinking. It's actually common sense. Mū doesn't need to be at full power in order to use a powerful Jinton. He only needs to have the chakra needed to use it, that's all. This doesn't imply that Mū was at his peak.

A lot of the revived shinobis's performance really left a lot to think, they were horribly worse than in their living version, add Tobirama's comments supported by that and you can actually say that Edos were weaker without sounding like a madman.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 15, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> This.
> 
> I use this quote to respond to *Authoritah*. It's not overthinking. It's actually common sense. Mū doesn't need to be at full power in order to use a powerful Jinton. He only needs to have the chakra needed to use it, that's all. This doesn't imply that Mū was at his peak.
> 
> A lot of the revived shinobis's performance really left a lot to think, they were horribly worse than in their living version, add Tobirama's comments supported by that and you can actually say that Edos were weaker without sounding like a madman.


Even though only _three Edo Tensei_ out of the entire summoned group were canonically said to be weakened? Edo Nagato is canonically said to be stronger than his living incarnation. Edo Itachi is stronger as well since he lacks the weaknesses he had in life. Edo Kimimaro as well since he's no longer sick. Edo Ginkaku and Kinkaku weren't weakened and Edo Kinkaku alone tore through the First Division like wet tissue paper. Edo Kakuzu was toying with the entire First Division and needed two high level Jonin characters on top of two Chunin to just neutralize him. Edo Dan was toying with Choza and could only be stopped via a barrier. The Edo Kage's showed they were just as strong as they were in life. 

Edo Sasori and Edo Chiyo were weakened-since their entire fighting style revolved around puppets. Which they lacked. Edo Deidara wasn't weaker, he just became more _arrogant_ and realized C0 with impunity, but didn't want to since it 'cheapens his art'. 

The Edo Seven Swordsmen were tearing through Kakashi's Third Division and Zabuza STILL put up a tough fight against Kakashi despite Kakashi's growth.

The only three Edo Tensei who aren't at full power are Madara Uchiha (due to all the enhancements he got from Kabuto), Hashirama Senju and Tobirama Senju (due to Orochimaru's inferior Edo Tensei compared to Kabuto's).


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## Nikushimi (Feb 15, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> But Edo Tensei mechanichs are the same. Orochimaru made it stronger than Kabuto, to the point of restraining Tobirama, when Kabuto's control was resisted and auto cancelled, plus his Edos showed worse performance than when they were alive. There are ample of examples out there that makes the theory of Edo not coming at full power something plausible.



Kabuto>Orochimaru and his Edo Tensei>Orochimaru's Edo Tensei.

Oro bound Tobirama? Great. Kabuto bound Hashirama-enhanced Rinnegan Madara and like forty other ninja.



> However you have a point, because Nagato and Itachi couldn't resist it and they are in the same league as Tobirama, if not higher. But he himself stated that they weren't brought back at full power, if he wasn't, then Nagato and Madara couldn't have been either.



But they were; Nagato was even stronger than Pain after absorbing B's V2 chakra, and Edo Itachi made EMS Sasuke look like a complete amateur.



> Nagato would've been weaker than in his prime version or the living version of that Edo Nagato since you cannot even summon Gedo Mazo with a fake Rinnegan.



I doubt Gedou Mazo would make any difference in a fight between Nagato and his Edo Tensei counterpart. Kakashi was a mortal threat to it because of Kamui and Obito protected it from Killer B with that Katon barrier. Considering that thing was too slow to stomp base Chouji, I can't imagine it being very effective against Kage-level ninja.



> Edo Nagato was stronger than the paths. About Itachi i don't know since he was sick, and in Edo Tensei we saw a better version because ilness was not affecting him. Living Itachi could've been stronger too, but still with the disadvantage of not having unlimited chakra and regen.



Again, based on his performance alongside EMS Sasuke, I really don't think the Edo Tensei version was weaker than the original--sick or not.


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## ARGUS (Feb 15, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I doubt Gedou Mazo would make any difference in a fight between Nagato and his Edo Tensei counterpart. Kakashi was a mortal threat to it because of Kamui and Obito protected it from Killer B with that Katon barrier. Considering that thing was too slow to stomp base Chouji, I can't imagine it being very effective against Kage-level ninja.



You might be right about the offensive feats of GM,, but still,,not enough Kage level opponents have counters to Soul Dragon,,,, one touch from it and GG


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## LostSelf (Feb 15, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Even though only _three Edo Tensei_ out of the entire summoned group were canonically said to be weakened? Edo Nagato is canonically said to be stronger than his living incarnation. Edo Itachi is stronger as well since he lacks the weaknesses he had in life. Edo Kimimaro as well since he's no longer sick. Edo Ginkaku and Kinkaku weren't weakened and Edo Kinkaku alone tore through the First Division like wet tissue paper. Edo Kakuzu was toying with the entire First Division and needed two high level Jonin characters on top of two Chunin to just neutralize him. Edo Dan was toying with Choza and could only be stopped via a barrier. The Edo Kage's showed they were just as strong as they were in life.



Edo Nagato was said to be cannonically stronger than his paths because he was using the jutsus by himself. However, that in no way implicates he would be as powerful as a living Nagato in the same conditions as Edo Nagato, but alive.

If we go technical, Deva Path could form Chibaku Tensei much faster than Edo Nagato, could Summon Gedo Mazo while Nagato couldn't, and Human Path soul ripped someone in an instant, while Nagato did all those, worse.

We don't know how powerful were Edo Ginkaku and Kinkaku and Dan to make an analisis about them, and Kakuzu did worse than his living self, since he here had backup. The Edo Kage's living feats are also, featless.



> Edo Sasori and Edo Chiyo were weakened-since their entire fighting style revolved around puppets. Which they lacked. Edo Deidara wasn't weaker, he just became more _arrogant_ and realized C0 with impunity, but didn't want to since it 'cheapens his art'.



Edo Deidara was outright blitzed by Sai, his expression says it all. I never saw Edo Chiyo, and Kimimaro was in the blink of death, he was healthy here, therefore he should be stronger.



> The Edo Seven Swordsmen were tearing through Kakashi's Third Division and Zabuza STILL put up a tough fight against Kakashi despite Kakashi's growth.



Zabuza was fodderized by Kakashi, though. And the other swordsmen are featless in their living forms to compare.



> The only three Edo Tensei who aren't at full power are Madara Uchiha (due to all the enhancements he got from Kabuto), Hashirama Senju and Tobirama Senju (due to Orochimaru's inferior Edo Tensei compared to Kabuto's).



But he could control Minato, who proved to be stronger than Tobirama, and more dumb than his living version.


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## LostSelf (Feb 15, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Kabuto>Orochimaru and his Edo Tensei>Orochimaru's Edo Tensei.



Kabuto could perfect Edo Tensei thanks to all the chakra he gathered. I don't see how he could've the better version than the one Oro with Senju cells used. However, i should bold here that i'm saying this is a _*plausible theory*_, not an affirmation.



> Oro bound Tobirama? Great. Kabuto bound Hashirama-enhanced Rinnegan Madara and like forty other ninja.



We don't know for sure if he bound it or not, since Madara never made an attempt to break it and was never bothered and  this words are not to be discarded.



> But they were; Nagato was even stronger than Pain after absorbing B's V2 chakra, and Edo Itachi made EMS Sasuke look like a complete amateur.



Nagato was stronger than Pain, surely. But would've not been stronger than the same version of Edo Nagato, but living. And Sasuke being an amateur in that fight was his fault, because his performance was being pretty good lately. Itachi would look stronger because of the unlimited chakra that helps his poor stamina, but comparing Edo Itachi with a sick one coughing blood and not being able to dodge Shurikens is not fair at all.



> I doubt Gedou Mazo would make any difference in a fight between Nagato and his Edo Tensei counterpart. Kakashi was a mortal threat to it because of Kamui and Obito protected it from Killer B with that Katon barrier. Considering that thing was too slow to stomp base Chouji, I can't imagine it being very effective against Kage-level ninja.



Gedou Mazo being a difference in a fight or not is not my point. It's not being able to summon it without the true Rinnegan. Also, a lot of Kage level ninjas would die against a combination of BT + Gedo Mazo's soul sucking dragons.



> Again, based on his performance alongside EMS Sasuke, I really don't think the Edo Tensei version was weaker than the original--sick or not.



Itachi didn't eclipse Sasuke, Sasuke fought like a noob, or was heavily affected by plot. Because current Sasuke, even without that sage Susano'o, would pretty much eclipse Itachi if both fought against the same opponent.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 15, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Edo Nagato was said to be cannonically stronger than his paths because he was using the jutsus by himself. However, that in no way implicates he would be as powerful as a living Nagato in the same conditions as Edo Nagato, but alive.


Yeah, it does implicate that he was stronger than he was alive. 


> If we go technical, Deva Path could form Chibaku Tensei much faster than Edo Nagato, could Summon Gedo Mazo while Nagato couldn't, and Human Path soul ripped someone in an instant, while Nagato did all those, worse.


That's explicitly false. Deva Path had to flee to where Nagato was to use Chibaku Tensei while Edo Nagato did it instantly. Edo Nagato was attempting to pull out Naruto's soul-someone who has experience with the chakra tug of war that Nagato uses to wipe out the soul. And Gedo Mazo should still be summoned by Nagato since he possessed the eyes in life. 

Madara couldn't as an Edo Tensei since he _had given his real eyes away_ and the Edo Tensei was enhanced to the point where he had a literal fake Rinnegan.


> We don't know how powerful were Edo Ginkaku and Kinkaku and Dan to make an analisis about them, and Kakuzu did worse than his living self, since he here had backup. The Edo Kage's living feats are also, featless.


Edo Ginkaku and Kinkaku were never said to be weaker, Kakuzu didn't do worse (we don't even know how the fight went), Dan wasn't said to be weaker, and the Edo Kage's were said to be as strong as in life. In essence, claiming all Edo Tensei are weaker than their living selves is a misnomer.




> Edo Deidara was outright blitzed by Sai, his expression says it all. I never saw Edo Chiyo, and Kimimaro was in the blink of death, he was healthy here, therefore he should be stronger.


Edo Deidara was blitzed *because he got cocky*. He knew he could wipe off the entire division with ease, but he didn't want to since it would, as I quote, CHEAPEN HIS ART. Do you ignore that?

We saw Edo Chiyo surviving until the Edo Tensei cancellation and wasn't said to be weaker. Kimimaro was effortlessly handling Jonin and Chunin level fighters when three genin pushed him to the brink in life.



> Zabuza was fodderized by Kakashi, though. And the other swordsmen are featless in their living forms to compare.


Kakashi had to get a lot of help just to beat Zabuza. Oh, and find a quote of him being weaker, and the other Swordsmen?




> But he could control Minato, who proved to be stronger than Tobirama, and more dumb than his living version.


Minato nor Hiruzen were said to be stronger nor less intelligent than their living versions. Tobirama and Hashirama are special, but still, Orochimaru's Edo Tensei is still weaker in terms of control and bringing power out compared to Kabuto's. 


Not all Edo Tensei were weakened. Unless you can PROVE it through qoutes?


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 15, 2014)

I think there's room to believe edo tensei are weaker than their living counterparts considering Tobirama's statement on being returned at "nearly full power".
That statement really opened up a can of worms since it didn't tell us conclusively which edo are or are not brought back at full, it just told us edo can potentially indeed not be brought back to full power. 

That being said, it can't be known which edo were or were not brought back to full, it could be argued either way but I don't think its absurd.
OT: Deidara solos w/ C1 .


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## Ersa (Feb 15, 2014)

Edo Tensei are likely more stupid.

Living Minato is a rare genius.



I'd say they have about half the intelligence of their living counterparts based on Minato's performance as an Edo Tensei. Their reflexes are likely dulled as well, Deidara avoids a blitz from Sasuke yet gets blitzed by someone who Sakura blitzed? Edo Itachi is stronger then a sickly Itachi yes but a healthy Itachi could be stronger simply because he can actuallyutilize his intelligence and is much faster with superior reflexes.


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## LostSelf (Feb 15, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yeah, it does implicate that he was stronger than he was alive.



Stronger than the paths =/= Stronger than living Nagato. Naruto never witnesed a full power Nagato either.



> That's explicitly false. Deva Path had to flee to where Nagato was to use Chibaku Tensei while Edo Nagato did it instantly.



Edo Nagato's Chibaku Tensei wasn't even half formed when Itachi was lecturing the other two [1], [2], [3], [4]

Living Nagato's Chibaku Tensei was like this in three pages. A living Nagato near death. And in five pages was complete, while Edo Nagato's wasn't even a quarter of what it was in Deva path's case.



> Edo Nagato was attempting to pull out Naruto's soul-someone who has experience with the chakra tug of war that Nagato uses to wipe out the soul. And Gedo Mazo should still be summoned by Nagato since he possessed the eyes in life.



It was stated that an Edo Tensei cannot summon Gedo Mazo with fake Rinnegan. Madara had them the same way Nagato had them, both were "fake".  Possessing the eye while alive doesn't change that fact.



> Madara couldn't as an Edo Tensei since he _had given his real eyes away_ and the Edo Tensei was enhanced to the point where he had a literal fake Rinnegan.



Nothing of this was stated. Just that in Edo Tensei he couldn't summon it. 



> Edo Ginkaku and Kinkaku were never said to be weaker, Kakuzu didn't do worse (we don't even know how the fight went), Dan wasn't said to be weaker, and the Edo Kage's were said to be as strong as in life. In essence, claiming all Edo Tensei are weaker than their living selves is a misnomer.



We don't have to be said in every chapter that X character was weaker in order to assume something. Ginkaku and Kinkaku were said to kill the Second Hokage, so if we go by hype, they didn't live up to that hype. Even though having backup.



> Edo Deidara was blitzed *because he got cocky*. He knew he could wipe off the entire division with ease, but he didn't want to since it would, as I quote, CHEAPEN HIS ART. Do you ignore that?



Sasori wasn't cocky, and he had the same expression as Deidara. They were both blindsided by a kid who was in front of them, being looked by them that drew the bird and flew in a straight direction at them. It doesn't matter how cocky he was, he was dodging attacks, and he didn't see this one coming, nor Sasori.



> We saw Edo Chiyo surviving until the Edo Tensei cancellation and wasn't said to be weaker. Kimimaro was effortlessly handling Jonin and Chunin level fighters when three genin pushed him to the brink in life.



They handled fodders.



> Kakashi had to get a lot of help just to beat Zabuza. Oh, and find a quote of him being weaker, and the other Swordsmen?



To seal him, he needed Zabuza inmobile, aside from that, Zabuza didn't even give him any troubles at all. Seriously, i don't see the need in putting a message in every panel saying "This guy is weaker than in his living form, in case you debate this in a foreign forum". Tobirama stated it and this is more than enough to make a theory.



> Minato nor Hiruzen were said to be stronger nor less intelligent than their living versions. Tobirama and Hashirama are special, but still, Orochimaru's Edo Tensei is still weaker in terms of control and bringing power out compared to Kabuto's.



Minato really proved to be less intelligent. Did you miss the latest chapter? Tobirama even called him stupid. Oro's edo Tensei being weaker than Kabuto's is plausible, but if it was, the four of them were weaker, not only Hashi and Tobi.



> Not all Edo Tensei were weakened. Unless you can PROVE it through qoutes?



Tobirama himself said that they were brought back at almost full power. 

How can some be weaker and some not? If by power we speak, how is Tobirama weaker and Minato/Nagato not when they are both in the same tier generally? The only explanation to this is Kabuto's Edo Tensei being better, but Minato was not bound by Kabuto's, therefore the question remains.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 15, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Stronger than the paths =/= Stronger than living Nagato. Naruto never witnesed a full power Nagato either.


Living Nagato was emaciated and could only fight through his paths. Pain Rikudou was his full power. Edo Nagato was stronger than that.




> Edo Nagato's Chibaku Tensei wasn't even half formed when Itachi was lecturing the other two [1], [2], [3], [4]
> 
> Living Nagato's Chibaku Tensei was like this in three pages. A living Nagato near death. And in five pages was complete, while Edo Nagato's wasn't even a quarter of what it was in Deva path's case.


Edo Nagato's never REACHED completion. It was halted beforehand. Itachi, Naruto, and Bee were caught in the beginning stages. 

The manga led us to believe it'd be larger and stronger if it was completed since Bee while fully transformed couldn't escape. 


> It was stated that an Edo Tensei cannot summon Gedo Mazo with fake Rinnegan. Madara had them the same way Nagato had them, both were "fake".  Possessing the eye while alive doesn't change that fact.


Except Nagato's as an Edo Tensei were not fake, if he had been Rinnei Tensei'd,  would have retained his eyes. Madara though died _blind_, those were genuine fake Rinnegan in his eyes. 




> Nothing of this was stated. Just that in Edo Tensei he couldn't summon it.


Only that Edo Madara couldn't since he was blind when he died. If Nagato was Rinnei Tenseied, his Rinnegan would still be possessed by him.




> We don't have to be said in every chapter that X character was weaker in order to assume something. Ginkaku and Kinkaku were said to kill the Second Hokage, so if we go by hype, they didn't live up to that hype. Even though having backup.


It took the Sage's Weapons to defeat Kinkaku and Ginkaku. How does that NOT live up to the hype? Kinkaku was plowing through the first division on his own without any difficulty.




> Sasori wasn't cocky, and he had the same expression as Deidara. They were both blindsided by a kid who was in front of them, being looked by them that drew the bird and flew in a straight direction at them. It doesn't matter how cocky he was, he was dodging attacks, and he didn't see this one coming, nor Sasori.


Sasori was weaker since he didn't have a puppet body. Deidara was explicitly said to be holding back and was shown to be extremely cocky since he knew he couldn't die. 

And yes, cockiness and arrogance comes into play. Why would Deidara dodge when he knows he can't die? 


> They handled fodders.


They handled ninja of jonin and chunin class easily.




> To seal him, he needed Zabuza inmobile, aside from that, Zabuza didn't even give him any troubles at all. Seriously, i don't see the need in putting a message in every panel saying "This guy is weaker than in his living form, in case you debate this in a foreign forum". Tobirama stated it and this is more than enough to make a theory.


Tobirama was referring to HIMSELF and Hashirama, no other Edo Tensei. Seriously, Tobirama and Hashirama, like Madara, were fucking special high level ninja. 




> Minato really proved to be less intelligent. Did you miss the latest chapter? Tobirama even called him stupid. Oro's edo Tensei being weaker than Kabuto's is plausible, but if it was, the four of them were weaker, not only Hashi and Tobi.


So smart people can't be outsmarted? And its hard to counter Black Zetsu's shifting body. And most of Minato being 'dumb' was for comedic sake.




> Tobirama himself said that they were brought back at almost full power.
> 
> How can some be weaker and some not? If by power we speak, how is Tobirama weaker and Minato/Nagato not when they are both in the same tier generally? The only explanation to this is Kabuto's Edo Tensei being better, but Minato was not bound by Kabuto's, therefore the question remains.


Tobirama and Hashirama are special ninja, like Madara. The former two were so strong in life Orochimaru's Edo Tensei couldn't bring them back fully. Edo Madara had so many enhancements (returning of his youth, the false Rinnegan installed, Mokuton usable) he couldn't bring out his full power until he was brought back to life.


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## LostSelf (Feb 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Living Nagato was emaciated and could only fight through his paths. Pain Rikudou was his full power. Edo Nagato was stronger than that.



I'm comparing, like i repeated myself like twice above, both Nagato in the same conditions. It'd be dumb of my part comparing the condition of Edo Nagato with the cripple one. Or Edo Itachi with the almost dead Itachi, or Edo Kimimaro with the sick and dying one. Of course they (edo version) would be stronger.



> Edo Nagato's never REACHED completion. It was halted beforehand. Itachi, Naruto, and Bee were caught in the beginning stages.



Living Nagato's formed faster, even if this one would've been larger, by the time Itachi and co. attacked, it should've been bigger than the one Nagato used.



> The manga led us to believe it'd be larger and stronger if it was completed since Bee while fully transformed couldn't escape.



Bee transformed to attack, he never did beforehand.



> Except Nagato's as an Edo Tensei were not fake, if he had been Rinnei Tensei'd,  would have retained his eyes. Madara though died _blind_, those were genuine fake Rinnegan in his eyes.
> 
> Only that Edo Madara couldn't since he was blind when he died. If Nagato was Rinnei Tenseied, his Rinnegan would still be possessed by him.



There's only one pair Rinnegan, and it was in possession of Tobi, every other Rinnegan created by Edo Tensei is fake.




> It took the Sage's Weapons to defeat Kinkaku and Ginkaku. How does that NOT live up to the hype? Kinkaku was plowing through the first division on his own without any difficulty.



Ginkaku and Kinkaku had the sage's weapons and even like that were trolled by a Jounin, they didn't display nothing impressive to the point of living to the hype of somebody that is so strong that Edo Tensei cannot revive him completely at full power while it revived someone like Nagato in a "better condition".



> Sasori was weaker since he didn't have a puppet body. Deidara was explicitly said to be holding back and was shown to be extremely cocky since he knew he couldn't die.



Deidara was not holding back. He was blowing Edo puppets all the way against them. Deidara was even taking his distance from the explosions. Having a puppet body or not doesn't reinforce reflexes, and Sasori was as surprised as Deidara.



> And yes, cockiness and arrogance comes into play. Why would Deidara dodge when he knows he can't die?



Are you implying they saw Sai moving all the way behind them with two giants and did nothing when that they were dodging attacks and avoiding it before? Those are not the faces of two cocky guys not caring they are hit. Those are the faces of two guys that were totally blindsided.



> They handled ninja of jonin and chunin class easily.



Fodders. Sasuke handled a much bigger number. Fodders are fodders, and they didn't even take most of them down, while Sasuke did it without killing them.



> Tobirama was referring to HIMSELF and Hashirama, no other Edo Tensei. Seriously, Tobirama and Hashirama, like Madara, were fucking special high level ninja.



Then Tobirama is so much powerful that him cannot be revived at full power, but Nagato, Itachi, Minato, Madara can be?



> So smart people can't be outsmarted? And its hard to counter Black Zetsu's shifting body. And most of Minato being 'dumb' was for comedic sake.



This wasn't outmarted. That was a bad action. The guy with reflexes to notice the Raikage and move too freaking fast could not see a black Zetsu moving to his hand while Kyuubi could notice. 




> Tobirama and Hashirama are special ninja, like Madara. The former two were so strong in life Orochimaru's Edo Tensei couldn't bring them back fully. Edo Madara had so many enhancements (returning of his youth, the false Rinnegan installed, Mokuton usable) he couldn't bring out his full power until he was brought back to life.



You are saying now that Kabuto's Edo Tensei couldn't bring back Madara at full power either. Then it's an effect of Edo Tensei. You are implying that Tobirama is leagues above Minato, Nagato and Itachi, that he cannot be revived at full power but the other guys can.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 16, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I'm comparing, like i repeated myself like twice above, both Nagato in the same conditions. It'd be dumb of my part comparing the condition of Edo Nagato with the cripple one. Or Edo Itachi with the almost dead Itachi, or Edo Kimimaro with the sick and dying one. Of course they (edo version) would be stronger.


But this flies right in the face of 'all Edo Tensei are weaker than their living versions' if that's the case, doesn't it?




> Living Nagato's formed faster, even if this one would've been larger, by the time Itachi and co. attacked, it should've been bigger than the one Nagato used.


Not really. Naruto, Bee, and Itachi attacked before it could get any bigger. It was still in the beginning stages. If KN6 Naruto had attacked at the same stage, Chibaku Tensei would have been obliterated.




> Bee transformed to attack, he never did beforehand.


Kabuto would have been thinking Bee transformed, hence why using Chibaku Tensei to capture him and Naruto since even if Bee fully transformed he wouldn't have broken out.




> There's only one pair Rinnegan, and it was in possession of Tobi, every other Rinnegan created by Edo Tensei is fake.


 I think you missed the point of Nagato and Madara's deaths. Nagato died still possessing the Rinnegan, Madara died blind. Why wouldn't Rinnei Tensei bring Nagato back with his eyes still there?





> Ginkaku and Kinkaku had the sage's weapons and even like that were trolled by a Jounin, they didn't display nothing impressive to the point of living to the hype of somebody that is so strong that Edo Tensei cannot revive him completely at full power while it revived someone like Nagato in a "better condition".


Ginkaku and Kinkaku _were beaten by the Sage Weapons themselves_. They were never 'trolled by Jonin', they were handily beating everyone who fought against them. It wasn't until Darui subconsciously changed his Kotodama Word that Ginkaku got sealed within the gourd. And Kinkaku was *destroying the entire First Division*, and required the Second Division *as well as the Kohaku no Johei* to defeat him. There's no way you can honestly claim they were weakened.




> Deidara was not holding back. He was blowing Edo puppets all the way against them. Deidara was even taking his distance from the explosions. Having a puppet body or not doesn't reinforce reflexes, and Sasori was as surprised as Deidara.


If Deidara wasn't holding back, why did he just use _C1_? That entire fucking battle he just used his *first level jutsu.* He didn't use C2, C3, C4, or C0. Hell when he was attacked by Sai he then said 'Ehh, not worth it, I'll just blow myself up despite it cheapening my art'! 

Deidara got arrogant, cocky, and since he believed he wouldn't die he never even used his best weapons.

And Sasori's puppet body would have enhanced his reflexes. He was completely bereft of his _entire arsenal._


> Are you implying they saw Sai moving all the way behind them with two giants and did nothing when that they were dodging attacks and avoiding it before? Those are not the faces of two cocky guys not caring they are hit. Those are the faces of two guys that were totally blindsided.


Are you ignoring Deidara's comments since they are immortal they can't lose? Deidara and Sasori were dicking around that entire battle.

You HONESTLY ignore Deidara's comments, his actions, and the fact he never used a higher level technique?


> Fodders. Sasuke handled a much bigger number. Fodders are fodders, and they didn't even take most of them down, while Sasuke did it without killing them.


1. What does Sasuke have to do with this? I'm comparing Edo Kimimaro's performance to living Kimimaro's.
2. Edo Chiyo was playing around so she could die.




> Then Tobirama is so much powerful that him cannot be revived at full power, but Nagato, Itachi, Minato, Madara can be?


Madara couldn't be since _Kabuto had explicitly enhanced his Edo Tensei_. Tobirama and Hashirama were so powerful in life, their full power couldn't be brought back in Edo Tensei form.

Nagato, Itachi, and Minato are alluded to be not on the same level of the Senju Brothers. Why even bring up Itachi there anyway?


> This wasn't outmarted. That was a bad action. The guy with reflexes to notice the Raikage and move too freaking fast could not see a black Zetsu moving to his hand while Kyuubi could notice.


Black Zetsu moved extremely quickly for that action. And since he doesn't have Evil Sensing then, he couldn't counter in time.





> You are saying now that Kabuto's Edo Tensei couldn't bring back Madara at full power either. Then it's an effect of Edo Tensei. You are implying that Tobirama is leagues above Minato, Nagato and Itachi, that he cannot be revived at full power but the other guys can.




Kabuto explicitly said he enhanced Madara's Edo Tensei. He brought Madara back to his youth, gave him a Rinnegan, and usable Mokuton. But _because_ of those enhancements Madara couldn't use his full power.

The manga alluded that Hashirama and Tobirama are extremely powerful. Minato is just faster than Tobirama and only more powerful since he is a Jinchuriki with full control over his beast (something he wasn't in life). Nagato was crippled most of his life. Itachi shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Minato is just faster than Tobirama and only more powerful since he is a Jinchuriki with full control over his beast (something he wasn't in life). Nagato was crippled most of his life. Itachi shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.



I would say Minato was stronger than Tobirama when they were alive; even if he's only faster by a little bit, we saw how much difference that made when he fought Obito. Hiraishin's like that.

And Itachi is on their level along with Nagato.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 16, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I would say Minato was stronger than Tobirama when they were alive; even if he's only faster by a little bit, we saw how much difference that made when he fought Obito. Hiraishin's like that.


Fair enough.


> And Itachi is on their level along with Nagato.


Which is why Itachi defeated Nagato alone right? Oh wait, he needed Naruto and Bee's help and their distractions, as well as Kabuto not knowing Nagato was a sensor to get his openings.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Fair enough.



I see there's no argument when it's Minato. 



> Which is why Itachi defeated Nagato alone right?



Yes, that's it exactly.



> Oh wait, he needed Naruto and Bee's help and their distractions, as well as Kabuto not knowing Nagato was a sensor to get his openings.



Being taken hostage isn't "help."

They helped blow up Chibaku Tensei; everything else was Itachi taking advantage of the fact that Kabuto was incompetent.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 16, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Yes, that's it exactly.


All Itachi did was _seal_ him. It took the combined efforts of all three ninja to defeat Nagato. Anything else is not only dishonest, but flies in the face of canon.




> Being taken hostage isn't "help."


Actually it does. Kabuto's, and by extension Nagato's, attention was fully focused on Naruto and Bee. The Shared Vision was pointed _right at them_ and Kabuto was focusing on extracting Naruto's soul who was fighting back. 

Itachi capitalizing on that doesn't mean he could have done it WITHOUT Naruto and Bee being there. 



> They helped blow up Chibaku Tensei; everything else was Itachi taking advantage of the fact that Kabuto was incompetent.


And the fact Naruto was actively resisting Human Path's soul extraction, all the eyes of the summons were focused on them, and Nagato's sensing wasn't used doesn't mean anything huh?


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## Nikushimi (Feb 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> All Itachi did was _seal_ him. It took the combined efforts of all three ninja to defeat Nagato. Anything else is not only dishonest, but flies in the face of canon.



It took the combined efforts of all three to blow up Chibaku Tensei, which Kabuto had Nagato use while Itachi's hands were full with the hostages/cannon fodder he rescued from Nagato. Then Itachi exploited a passing dust cloud and impaled Nagato, who couldn't physically avoid it due to being a gimp.



> Actually it does. Kabuto's, and by extension Nagato's, attention was fully focused on Naruto and Bee. The Shared Vision was pointed _right at them_ and Kabuto was focusing on extracting Naruto's soul who was fighting back.



The shared vision was supposed to catch blind spot attacks, which is what happened when Killer B tried to jump in; Itachi was skilled enough to get around it and disable it in one quick move. Then Nagato regenerated because lelEdoTensei and they faced each other directly, at which point, Nagato was able to freely get off Chibaku Tensei first (which Itachi had no knowledge of). Then Chibaku Tensei was broken by all three and lelTotsukaGG.



> Itachi capitalizing on that doesn't mean he could have done it WITHOUT Naruto and Bee being there.



Substitute Naruto and B for a Kage Bunshin. It doesn't matter.



> And the fact Naruto was actively resisting Human Path's soul extraction, all the eyes of the summons were focused on them, and Nagato's sensing wasn't used doesn't mean anything huh?



Sensing isn't a passive ability for Nagato, so it wouldn't be something he would be constantly using anyway.

Not that it would make a difference, considering the fact that Itachi pulled a clone feint right under Sage Kabuto's nose. That guy had every enhanced sensory/tracking ability in the book and Itachi _still_ faked him out.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 16, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> It took the combined efforts of all three to blow up Chibaku Tensei, which Kabuto had Nagato use while Itachi's hands were full with the hostages/cannon fodder he rescued from Nagato. Then Itachi exploited a passing dust cloud and impaled Nagato, who couldn't physically avoid it due to being a gimp.


And Kabuto couldn't have kept Nagato's Preta Path activated could he or levitated him huh? Itachi alone couldn't defeat Chibaku Tensei, it took all three of them to defeat Nagato.

You're still being dishonest.


> The shared vision was supposed to catch blind spot attacks, which is what happened when Killer B tried to jump in; Itachi was skilled enough to get around it and disable it in one quick move.


Kabuto had _all eyes focused on Bee and Naruto_, there were only two sets there. Itachi was skilled enough to get through the shoddy net that _Kabuto_ had made.


> Then Nagato regenerated because lelEdoTensei and they faced each other directly, at which point, Nagato was able to freely get off Chibaku Tensei first (which Itachi had no knowledge of). Then Chibaku Tensei was broken by all three and lelTotsukaGG.


Nagato would have regenerated anyway due to being an Uzumaki, or just recreated his arms with Asura Path. And Itachi alone can't defeat Chibaku Tensei.




> Substitute Naruto and B for a Kage Bunshin. It doesn't matter.


Kind of does. All Nagato would do is use Shinra Tensei to blow said clones away. Kabuto was explicitly in the middle of extracting Naruto's soul too. 




> Sensing isn't a passive ability for Nagato, so it wouldn't be something he would be constantly using anyway.


How ISN'T it passive? His method of fighting would require him to have it passive.


> Not that it would make a difference, considering the fact that Itachi pulled a clone feint right under Sage Kabuto's nose. That guy had every enhanced sensory/tracking ability in the book and Itachi _still_ faked him out.


You're mistaking a Clone Feint for a Substitution. And way to wank Itachi more than you normally do.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 16, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Kabuto couldn't have kept Nagato's Preta Path activated could he or levitated him huh?



Evidently not or he would have; he implied that he had enough time to dodge, after all.



> Itachi alone couldn't defeat Chibaku Tensei, it took all three of them to defeat Nagato.



Itachi _with no knowledge of Chibaku Tensei_ couldn't defeat it alone.

He still beat Nagato alone, though, after CT was broken.



> You're still being dishonest.



That hurt my feelings.



> Kabuto had _all eyes focused on Bee and Naruto_, there were only two sets there. Itachi was skilled enough to get through the shoddy net that _Kabuto_ had made.



Nagato normally only has one pair of eyes unless he's using Pain; shoddy or not, Kabuto gave him three--four, if you count the snake head on the tail of the chameleon that has Rinnegan (minus the one blind eye).



> Nagato would have regenerated anyway due to being an Uzumaki,



Like Karin. 



> or just recreated his arms with Asura Path.



Would still lose a ton of blood.



> And Itachi alone can't defeat Chibaku Tensei.



Not when he doesn't have intel on it, sure.

With intel, maybe he could've hit it with Amaterasu or the Magatama before it gathered any debris, or maybe he could've just feinted Nagato with a clone and let the core go flying off in the completely wrong direction away from him. Every Jutsu has a weakness. 



> Kind of does. All Nagato would do is use Shinra Tensei to blow said clones away. Kabuto was explicitly in the middle of extracting Naruto's soul too.



The point of the clone would be for Nagato to not know it was a clone; I am well aware that he could easily destroy it, but the clone is just supposed to be a diversion (like Naruto and B).



> How ISN'T it passive? His method of fighting would require him to have it passive.



Because if it wasn't passive, Edo Nagato wouldn't have gotten blind-sided.

Bam.



> You're mistaking a Clone Feint for a Substitution.



I'm afraid I don't understand the difference; there was definitely a clone involved, and Itachi switched out with it undetected, so whether you call it a "clone feint" or a "substitution" just seems like pointless word games.



> And way to wank Itachi more than you normally do.



I'm being serious, though.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 16, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Evidently not or he would have; he implied that he had enough time to dodge, after all.


And Kabuto implied a lot of things. He still couldn't even use Nagato's sensing ability.




> Itachi _with no knowledge of Chibaku Tensei_ couldn't defeat it alone.
> 
> He still beat Nagato alone, though, after CT was broken.


He sealed Nagato. It took Naruto, Bee, and Itachi to defeat Nagato. Not Itachi alone. Stop wanking and being dishonest.

Even with knowledge, Itachi has no way of stopping Chibaku Tensei. Yasaka Magatama lacks firepower, Amaterasu lacks range and wouldn't burn through solid stone. 


> That hurt my feelings.


When you flat out lie and be dishonest, I'll call you out on it.




> Nagato normally only has one pair of eyes unless he's using Pain; shoddy or not, Kabuto gave him three--four, if you count the snake head on the tail of the chameleon that has Rinnegan (minus the one blind eye).


Nagato regularly had a dozen eyes in his Shared Vision, several summons, on top of his sensing. Itachi faced three pairs of eyes, all of which were pointed inward since Kabuto forgot Itachi was even there.




> Like Karin.


The manga said Uzumaki's have regeneration. 




> Would still lose a ton of blood.


When has a limb loss done that in Naruto?




> Not when he doesn't have intel on it, sure.
> 
> With intel, maybe he could've hit it with Amaterasu or the Magatama before it gathered any debris, or maybe he could've just feinted Nagato with a clone and let the core go flying off in the completely wrong direction away from him. Every Jutsu has a weakness.


Are you fucking serious? The manga presented, knowledge or not, Itachi is helpless alone against Chibaku Tensei. Amaterasu lacks range, can't burn through solid stone, and Yasaka Magatama lacks the firepower needed. And Itachi sends a clone only for Nagato to destroy it.

You honestly wank Itachi so fucking much.


> The point of the clone would be for Nagato to not know it was a clone; I am well aware that he could easily destroy it, but the clone is just supposed to be a diversion (like Naruto and B).


And why would Nagato do the same thing he did to Naruto and Bee to Itachi's clones?




> Because if it wasn't passive, Edo Nagato wouldn't have gotten blind-sided.


His sensing was turned off. Edo Nagato sensed the build up of Amaterasu remember without even trying. 

Kabuto had no knowledge of Nagato's sensing ability, hence why he didn't use it.




> I'm afraid I don't understand the difference; there was definitely a clone involved, and Itachi switched out with it undetected, so whether you call it a "clone feint" or a "substitution" just seems like pointless word games.


The difference is a substitution replaces Itachi's body with one of his clones right when he's struck, a clone feint is letting the opponent think you got the real one and then attacking when their guard is let down. 




> I'm being serious, though.


which is why you lie, refuse to acknowledge the manga presented Nagato as the stronger of the two, act like Nagato is going to be as much of an idiot like Kabuto made him, ignore Nagato's sensing ability was turned off by Kabuto since Kabuto had no knowledge of it, etc. etc. etc.

In your world, only Itachi can move offensively. Only Itachi can counter. Everyone else stands in awe and doesn't even do basic defenses since he's the great King Itachi. Am I right?


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## Ersa (Feb 16, 2014)

Ad Hominem is a really poor way to debate just saying. 

Sick Itachi isn't on Minato's level but Edo Itachi can comfortably be lobbed in with monsters like Nagato and Minato. He's more or less a pre-PS EMS Sasuke who is smarter, has more stamina, more intelligent and trades firepower for Tsukiyomi.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 17, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Kabuto implied a lot of things.



So you're just dismissing it. 



> He still couldn't even use Nagato's sensing ability.



Don't see how this matters; he saw the sword coming and apparently had enough time to react.



> He sealed Nagato. It took Naruto, Bee, and Itachi to defeat Nagato. Not Itachi alone. Stop wanking and being dishonest.



Other than being taken hostage and blowing up Chibaku Tensei, which Itachi had no knowledge of, what did they do?

It was Itachi who blinded his summons, saved their asses, told them HOW to counter Chibaku Tensei after he got a chance to analyze it, and then blitzed Nagato through a dust cloud.



> Even with knowledge, Itachi has no way of stopping Chibaku Tensei. Yasaka Magatama lacks firepower,



It's not clear if the bare core of CT would be able to withstand that attack.



> Amaterasu lacks range



That isn't a problem as long as Itachi is close enough to use it.



> and wouldn't burn through solid stone.



So the one thing Amaterasu can't burn in this manga is generic, everyday stone? 



> When you flat out lie and be dishonest, I'll call you out on it.



What did I lie about and what was I dishonest about?

I can call you a plagiarist and a zoophile, but such accusations don't really mean anything if you can't point out instances of the behavior in question.

I know I didn't lie or say anything dishonest intentionally.



> Nagato regularly had a dozen eyes in his Shared Vision, several summons, on top of his sensing. Itachi faced three pairs of eyes, all of which were pointed inward since Kabuto forgot Itachi was even there.



Itachi did with a handful of kunai in an open space what Sage Jiraiya+Fukasaku+Shima needed a Katon, a Kage Bunshin, the shadow hiding Jutsu, and a narrow hallway to pull off.



> The manga said Uzumaki's have regeneration.



Yes, we've seen that. We also saw Edo Nagato (Uzumaki AND an Edo Tensei) disabled by Amaterasu, his regen failing to mitigate the damage on its own.



> When has a limb loss done that in Naruto?



Lose a ton of blood? Every single time.



> Are you fucking serious? The manga presented, knowledge or not, Itachi is helpless alone against Chibaku Tensei.



Yes, but that was when he had no knowledge of it; we never saw Itachi face it with the knowledge of how it works.



> Amaterasu lacks range,



It has enough range to hit anything within 5-10m--perhaps more, depending on how large the Cerberus and Nagato's bird are.



> can't burn through solid stone,



Yet it can burn through fireproof walls made from giant toad summon flesh, the Hachibi, Zetsu...



> and Yasaka Magatama lacks the firepower needed.



YnM was never tested against just the core.



> And Itachi sends a clone only for Nagato to destroy it.



How's Nagato going to do that while casting Chibaku Tensei?



> You honestly wank Itachi so fucking much.



You say that, but then you don't have answers for any of this...



> And why would Nagato do the same thing he did to Naruto and Bee to Itachi's clones?



It doesn't have to be the same thing, and I never said that it did.

As long as Nagato's attention is on the fake, the real Itachi can capitalize.



> His sensing was turned off. Edo Nagato sensed the build up of Amaterasu remember without even trying.



Yeah, he was using his chakra-sensing power at the time.



> Kabuto had no knowledge of Nagato's sensing ability, hence why he didn't use it.



Which means it's not a passive ability. There you go.



> The difference is a substitution replaces Itachi's body with one of his clones right when he's struck, a clone feint is letting the opponent think you got the real one and then attacking when their guard is let down.



I'm still not seeing the difference. Both are just using a clone to take an attack and distract the enemy. What else am I missing?



> which is why you lie,



I haven't lied about anything here. If I've been mistaken about something, it was unintentional, though I hope you're prepared to show me where I erred if you're going to make accusations like this.



> refuse to acknowledge the manga presented Nagato as the stronger of the two,



The manga presented no such thing, at least not in any direct capacity. No, that is merely something you inferred, and I have not seen good reasoning from you to make that inference.



> act like Nagato is going to be as much of an idiot like Kabuto made him,



I didn't say that; I've only said what Itachi did in the manga, not how he would contend with the real Nagato.



> ignore Nagato's sensing ability was turned off by Kabuto since Kabuto had no knowledge of it, etc. etc. etc.



I never ignored that (in fact, anyone who read my previous posts could have told you otherwise).



> In your world, only Itachi can move offensively. Only Itachi can counter. Everyone else stands in awe and doesn't even do basic defenses since he's the great King Itachi. Am I right?



Itachi only moves when he needs to; we've seen him fight and he's always very defensive and conservative with his style. Given his poor stamina, it's understandable. He's a minimalist when it comes to offense, and that really didn't seem to change even as an Edo Tensei. He was opportunistic, struck when there were distractions and blind spots, and didn't constantly pressure his opponents despite having the chakra to do it quite comfortably.

That said, that's all he would need to beat Nagato. Not saying it's guaranteed that he would, of course.



Ersatz said:


> Ad Hominem is a really poor way to debate just saying.



Yep.



> Sick Itachi isn't on Minato's level but Edo Itachi can comfortably be lobbed in with monsters like Nagato and Minato. He's more or less a pre-PS EMS Sasuke who is smarter, has more stamina, more intelligent and trades firepower for Tsukiyomi.



Sick Itachi is on Minato's level. LolTsukuyomi makes him a direct threat to Minato, and there are opponents like the 3rd Raikage who could force Minato to mutual death with Shiki Fujin but would lose pretty decisively to Itachi.

Regardless of match-up, they are pretty comparable shinobi. Minato wouldn't stand any chance against Edo Itachi outside of landing Shiki Fujin.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 17, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> So you're just dismissing it.


Since it doesn't matter since Nagato himself shows he can get around it.




> Don't see how this matters; he saw the sword coming and apparently had enough time to react.


The manga's shown that sensing an attack will allow you to avoid an attack before it even hits.




> Other than being taken hostage and blowing up Chibaku Tensei, which Itachi had no knowledge of, what did they do?


Kept all of Nagato's attention on them, stalled Nagato long enough for Itachi to recover from the Shinra Tensei blitz, and kept all attention OFF Itachi. You honestly don't see how that helps since you are a  Itachi wanker. 


> It was Itachi who blinded his summons, saved their asses, told them HOW to counter Chibaku Tensei after he got a chance to analyze it, and then blitzed Nagato through a dust cloud.


1. Summons who had their full attention on Naruto and Bee with blindspots created since Kabuto forgot Itachi was even there.
2. Since they were _actively keeping Nagato's attention._
3. Not that hard of a plan. 
4. No, he never did that. 

You wank, you make things up, and you exaggerate what Itachi did.


> It's not clear if the bare core of CT would be able to withstand that attack.


Are you serious? Yasaka Magatama is never going to dent Chibaku Tensei's core.




> That isn't a problem as long as Itachi is close enough to use it.


Chibaku Tensei's core is too high up in the sky for Amaterasu to reach.




> So the one thing Amaterasu can't burn in this manga is generic, everyday stone?


And steel. Seriously, Amaterasu has had trouble with stone and has never, not even ONCE even dented a stone wall.




> What did I lie about and what was I dishonest about?
> 
> I can call you a plagiarist and a zoophile, but such accusations don't really mean anything if you can't point out instances of the behavior in question.


You're being dishonest about the entire fight here and you're downplaying Naruto and Bee's involvement and making up crap each and every time.


> I know I didn't lie or say anything dishonest intentionally.


You do it every time when Itachi comes up.




> Itachi did with a handful of kunai in an open space what Sage Jiraiya+Fukasaku+Shima needed a Katon, a Kage Bunshin, the shadow hiding Jutsu, and a narrow hallway to pull off.


Itachi blinded two immobile summons who had their complete attention focused on Naruto and Bee and they had their back to where the Kunai actually came. Sorry, not the same feat as what Jiraiya did. 




> Yes, we've seen that. We also saw Edo Nagato (Uzumaki AND an Edo Tensei) disabled by Amaterasu, his regen failing to mitigate the damage on its own.


Yeah, ignore that Nagato intentionally didn't counter Amaterasu until forced.




> Lose a ton of blood? Every single time.


Never happened to Jiraiya. Never happened to Madara. This is a Shonen manga, that real life thing doesn't apply here.




> Yes, but that was when he had no knowledge of it; we never saw Itachi face it with the knowledge of how it works.


And Itachi is completely ill equipped to deal with it anyway. Any claim otherwise is a lie.




> It has enough range to hit anything within 5-10m--perhaps more, depending on how large the Cerberus and Nagato's bird are.


Not enough range to hit something as high up as Chibaku Tensei can go up to. Not to mention the fact its useless due to the gravitational force.




> Yet it can burn through fireproof walls made from giant toad summon flesh, the Hachibi, Zetsu...


And stone's consistently shown it hasn't even been singed by Amaterasu. 




> YnM was never tested against just the core.


It kind of was. Just to defeat Chibaku Tensei, two attacks of much higher power were needed.




> How's Nagato going to do that while casting Chibaku Tensei?


Asura Path? Shinra Tensei? Clones are useless. 




> You say that, but then you don't have answers for any of this...


Since all of these arguments you've presented were _shot down continuously in the past_ by Lightysnake, by Joakim3, by me, by Munboy, by Thunder. You are an Itachi Wanker. You even proudly proclaim yourself as one.




> It doesn't have to be the same thing, and I never said that it did.
> 
> As long as Nagato's attention is on the fake, the real Itachi can capitalize.


Hard to do with Nagato's wider Shared Vision field + sensing warnings + the ability to actually create eyes at the back of his head with Asura Path...

Only if you have Nagato act like a moron, Itachi can capitalize.


> Yeah, he was using his chakra-sensing power at the time.


And he passively sensed where Kabuto was a country away despite Kabuto's barrier. 




> Which means it's not a passive ability. There you go.


How could Kabuto use Nagato's sensing when he didn't know about it?




> I'm still not seeing the difference. Both are just using a clone to take an attack and distract the enemy. What else am I missing?


Can said clone distract Nagato long enough so he's completely focused on pulling out a soul via Human Path being resisted by chakra tug of war?




> I haven't lied about anything here. If I've been mistaken about something, it was unintentional, though I hope you're prepared to show me where I erred if you're going to make accusations like this.


I've pointed it out with every post here. 




> The manga presented no such thing, at least not in any direct capacity. No, that is merely something you inferred, and I have not seen good reasoning from you to make that inference.


Manga: Naruto, Itachi, and Bee are required to defeat Nagato. Nagato is defeated by the combined efforts of all three of them.
Nikushimi: Itachi and Nagato are on the same level and Itachi defeated Nagato without any help really needed.

Manga is on my side. Manga also pointed out Nagato IS the strongest Akatsuki. NOT. ITACHI.


> I didn't say that; I've only said what Itachi did in the manga, not how he would contend with the real Nagato.


And what Itachi did in the manga you've misled. You've ignored the chakra tug of war between Naruto and Nagato which caused the distraction. You've ignored that ALL eyes were on Naruto and Bee. You've ignored Kabuto forgetting Itachi was even there. Then you claim Itachi could do it all himself.



> Itachi only moves when he needs to; we've seen him fight and he's always very defensive and conservative with his style. Given his poor stamina, it's understandable. He's a minimalist when it comes to offense, and that really didn't seem to change even as an Edo Tensei. He was opportunistic, struck when there were distractions and blind spots, and didn't constantly pressure his opponents despite having the chakra to do it quite comfortably.
> 
> That said, that's all he would need to beat Nagato. Not saying it's guaranteed that he would, of course.


And Nagato routinely dealt with opponents as strong and as smart as Itachi. You operate that Nagato will do nothing and let Itachi just win.




> Sick Itachi is on Minato's level. LolTsukuyomi makes him a direct threat to Minato, and there are opponents like the 3rd Raikage who could force Minato to mutual death with Shiki Fujin but would lose pretty decisively to Itachi.


Tsukuyomi can't land on Minato due to Minato's sheer speed. The second Itachi focuses the chakra for it, Minato's broken eye contact, appears behind Itachi and slits his jugular or slams a Rasengan into his head.


> Regardless of match-up, they are pretty comparable shinobi. Minato wouldn't stand any chance against Edo Itachi outside of landing Shiki Fujin.


And Edo Itachi wouldn't stand any chance against KCM or BM Minato.


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## Ersa (Feb 17, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Sick Itachi is on Minato's level. LolTsukuyomi makes him a direct threat to Minato, and there are opponents like the 3rd Raikage who could force Minato to mutual death with Shiki Fujin but would lose pretty decisively to Itachi.


3rd Raikage is one exception I feel. Generally if matched up against say a bunch of opponents, Minato will come out ahead simply because although Itachi may be stronger at the beginning of a match, most high tiers won't be killed early on and the more stamina he uses the weaker he becomes. They both have nigh-perfect defense in Susanoo/Hiraishin but Hiraishin is far more spammable.

And in when looking at a fight between sick Itachi and Minato, the former simply has to spam Susanoo's lower forms to defend and will tire and deteriote as we saw in the Hebi Sasuke fight. Catching someone as fast as Minato in Tsukiyomi won't be easy if Minato stays relatively healthy.


> Regardless of match-up, they are pretty comparable shinobi. Minato wouldn't stand any chance against Edo Itachi outside of landing Shiki Fujin.


I'd peg Minato as a little stronger then sick Itachi, not a great deal but superior nonetheless. Edo Itachi is superior to Minato I'd say. Unlike his living terminally ill counterpart he can spam Susanoo and clones all day and wear Minato out then catch the sucker in Tsukiyomi. And I'd take unlimited Susanoo/Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu/clones over Hiraishin and Reaper Seal anyday when it comes to a tier placing.


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## Kickflip Uzumaki (Feb 17, 2014)

Why is this thread still alive?


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## Foxsikes (Feb 17, 2014)

People here have to realize that when Sai fought Deidara, Deidara was not at full power.  Over and Over again the manga has shown and hinted that the reincarnated shinobi were not at full power.  Hashirama and Tobirama were brought back TWICE in the manga and both times it was stated that they were not at full power.  Madara became so much more powerful when he actually did become alive again.  Sasori as an Edo wasn't even a puppet.  Sure Edos are immortal but that doesn't mean anything for their powerlevels.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 17, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since it doesn't matter since Nagato himself shows he can get around it.



Kabuto was using all of Nagato's powers except for chakra sensing and had enough time to physically dodge the sword, yet he was unable to do anything. So what makes you think Nagato would be able to do anything?



> The manga's shown that sensing an attack will allow you to avoid an attack before it even hits.



The manga also says that chakra sensing is not as accurate as actually seeing or communicating the nature of the attack. It's not like Nagato can discern the shape, speed, or exact placement of the attack just by the chakra signature coming from Itachi.



> Kept all of Nagato's attention on them, stalled Nagato long enough for Itachi to recover from the Shinra Tensei blitz, and kept all attention OFF Itachi. You honestly don't see how that helps since you are a  Itachi wanker.



I see how that helps Itachi, but it wasn't THEIR help; they had no control over those circumstances and I'm sure they wouldn't have let themselves be taken hostage if they could've done anything about it.

It was Kabuto being incompetent, like I said. Still, Itachi took advantage of that himself.



> 1. Summons who had their full attention on Naruto and Bee with blindspots created since Kabuto forgot Itachi was even there.



The manga also says that chakra sensing is not as accurate as actually seeing or communicating the nature of the attack.

According to Kabuto, he was relying on shared vision to keep watch around Nagato due to his lack of mobility, and Itachi got around it anyway.



> 2. Since they were _actively keeping Nagato's attention._



Kabuto said he was using shared vision to keep an eye on Nagato's surroundings, too.



> 3. Not that hard of a plan.



Never said it was; I was just pointing out that he was the one to think of it first and direct them to execute it.



> 4. No, he never did that.



The manga also says that chakra sensing is not as accurate as actually seeing or communicating the nature of the attack.

He did exactly that.



> You wank, you make things up, and you exaggerate what Itachi did.



Yet I am only describing exactly what Itachi did: He rescued Naruto and B when they were taken hostage by targeting the blind spots in Nagato's shared vision, then they broke Chibaku Tensei (which Itachi had no prior knowledge of) together, and then Itachi straight-up blitzed Nagato himself through a dust cloud.



> Are you serious? Yasaka Magatama is never going to dent Chibaku Tensei's core.



How would you know that? Individual beads can pierce Gaara's sand and almost go all the way through Oonoki's stone, and the core has zero durability feats other than withstanding the weight of its own debris cluster I guess.



> Chibaku Tensei's core is too high up in the sky for Amaterasu to reach.



Chibaku Tensei starts in Nagato's hands, not in the sky; he has to throw it into the sky.



> And steel. Seriously, Amaterasu has had trouble with stone and has never, not even ONCE even dented a stone wall.



Fire doesn't dent things.



> You're being dishonest about the entire fight here



What am I being dishonest about?



> and you're downplaying Naruto and Bee's involvement



They got taken hostage and then helped blow up Chibaku Tensei. That's all they did.



> and making up crap each and every time.



Like what, specifically?



> You do it every time when Itachi comes up.



Yet you can't seem to give me one clear example.



> Itachi blinded two immobile summons who had their complete attention focused on Naruto and Bee and they had their back to where the Kunai actually came. Sorry, not the same feat as what Jiraiya did.



Take a look at the scan again; there's no way Itachi could've hit their eyes if they had their backs to him.

Well, actually, he _could_ have, because he's awesome with throwing weapons, but that's clearly not what happened.



> Yeah, ignore that Nagato intentionally didn't counter Amaterasu until forced.



Last I checked, Uzumaki regen wasn't intentional and isn't something that ever turns off.

Same goes for Edo Tensei regen.



> Never happened to Jiraiya. Never happened to Madara. This is a Shonen manga, that real life thing doesn't apply here.



What? Jiraiya lost a shit ton of blood and Madara immediately replaced his arm with Zetsu's.



> And Itachi is completely ill equipped to deal with it anyway. Any claim otherwise is a lie.



How would you know if we never saw him face it with knowledge in advance?



> Not enough range to hit something as high up as Chibaku Tensei can go up to.



Chibaku Tensei starts at chest-level.



> Not to mention the fact its useless due to the gravitational force.



How is gravitational force going to render Amaterasu useless?



> And stone's consistently shown it hasn't even been singed by Amaterasu.



Uhhh...

The manga also says that chakra sensing is not as accurate as actually seeing or communicating the nature of the attack.

That sure looks like Amaterasu is burning on solid stone. That's literally the only time Amaterasu has been used on stone, and we never saw what it looked like after the flames dissipated. So how you reached the conclusion that stone can't be singed by Amaterasu is a mystery to me.



> It kind of was. Just to defeat Chibaku Tensei, two attacks of much higher power were needed.



The core had already gathered a large volume of debris by then.



> Asura Path? Shinra Tensei?



Evidence Nagato can use those while using Chibaku Tensei, please?



> Clones are useless.



If Nagato is attacking them with Asura Path and Shinra Tensei, then the clones are doing exactly what Itachi needs them to do.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 17, 2014)

> Since all of these arguments you've presented were _shot down continuously in the past_ by Lightysnake, by Joakim3, by me, by Munboy, by Thunder.



That's funny, considering the fact that you're generally regarded as the extremist around here and not me. Even funnier when you consider that you put yourself on that list despite the fact that you have never even once been able to hold your own in a debate with me, just like now.



> You are an Itachi Wanker. You even proudly proclaim yourself as one.



Irrelevant; who I am has no bearing on the argument at hand.



> Hard to do with Nagato's wider Shared Vision field + sensing warnings + the ability to actually create eyes at the back of his head with Asura Path...



Itachi showed that he can use pinpoint-accuracy to target the Rinnegan through blind spots, and he also showed that he can use clones to catch a chakra sensor off-guard. More eyes won't change anything; Naruto got around to Pain's blind spots a couple of times, too.



> Only if you have Nagato act like a moron, Itachi can capitalize.



That's exactly what happened, though.



> And he passively sensed where Kabuto was a country away despite Kabuto's barrier.



Location is something that chakra sensing can detect, yes. That doesn't tell him anything valuable about incoming attacks, though.



> How could Kabuto use Nagato's sensing when he didn't know about it?



I never said he could; I said chakra sensing isn't a passive ability for Nagato, as evidenced by the fact that Kabuto couldn't use it because he didn't know about it. If it was passive, Kabuto wouldn't have needed to know about it to use it because it would already be in effect all the time; that's what it means to have a passive ability.



> Can said clone distract Nagato long enough so he's completely focused on pulling out a soul via Human Path being resisted by chakra tug of war?



Itachi was able to execute a blitz almost at the exact same time his kunai blinded Nagato's Rinnegan, which means he did it between the time he threw them and the time they made contact; a clone would be able to distract Nagato for that long, yes.



> I've pointed it out with every post here.



You keep saying that, yet you refuse to actually do it... Like right now.

"I've pointed it out!" ... *doesn't point it out*



> Manga: Naruto, Itachi, and Bee are required to defeat Nagato. Nagato is defeated by the combined efforts of all three of them.



In one chapter, when Itachi has no knowledge. Yes, I agree with that.



> Nikushimi: Itachi and Nagato are on the same level and Itachi defeated Nagato without any help really needed.



Itachi and Nagato are on the same level and Itachi defeated Nagato (controlled by Kabuto) with a blitz through a dust cloud after Naruto and B helped him counter a Jutsu he didn't know about.



> Manga is on my side.



The manga doesn't take sides; you are putting your own spin on what happened and parading it as "the manga," but that's not what it is.

The full picture is this: Itachi, Naruto, and B were needed to defeat Nagato in a single chapter with no casualties or even damage on their side. All Naruto and B did was get taken hostage, while Itachi snuck around the Rinnegan's shared vision to save them. Then, they helped Itachi blow up Chibaku Tensei, which Itachi didn't know about in the first place. Then, Itachi blitzed Nagato in the aftermath of the explosion because Nagato couldn't move or counter it.



> Manga also pointed out Nagato IS the strongest Akatsuki. NOT. ITACHI.



The manga never pointed that out. Flavor text refers to Pain as "the strongest man in Akatsuki," but it also refers to Nagato and Itachi later on as Obito's strongest forces in the Edo Tensei army (prior to Madara) and I know you don't take that seriously because you actually believe the four Edo Kage (or three of them, anyway) can beat Itachi. If there's another source you're drawing from to determine that Nagato is the strongest, then I don't know what it is; you'll have to enlighten me.



> And what Itachi did in the manga you've misled.



Yet you won't tell me what that is, and instead keep insisting that you've already told me.



> You've ignored the chakra tug of war between Naruto and Nagato which caused the distraction.



I ignored it because it's not important. That doesn't mean I'm denying that it happened, though.



> You've ignored that ALL eyes were on Naruto and Bee.



The core had already gathered a large volume of debris by then
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That sure isn't what it looks like, and Kabuto seems to have thought that the shared vision would compensate for Nagato's immobility.



> You've ignored Kabuto forgetting Itachi was even there.



I'm not inside of Kabuto's head, or Kishi's; I don't know if he forgot or was just plain careless.



> Then you claim Itachi could do it all himself.



Yeah; substitute a Kage Bunshin or a Karasu Bunshin for Naruto and B, like I said. Hell, if it's a Karasu Bunshin, then Nagato gets a face full of crow and Itachi suddenly has plenty of blind spots to target.



> And Nagato routinely dealt with opponents as strong and as smart as Itachi.



Yet he lost to someone weaker and much, much dumber.

Circumstance and luck and tactical decisions in the heat of the moment are important, too.



> You operate that Nagato will do nothing and let Itachi just win.



It can go either way.



> Tsukuyomi can't land on Minato due to Minato's sheer speed. The second Itachi focuses the chakra for it, Minato's broken eye contact,



Minato has no way of detecting Itachi's chakra.



> appears behind Itachi and slits his jugular or slams a Rasengan into his head.



If Itachi knows about Hiraishin, then he can counter it just like Killer B did. Minato won't be touching him without getting cut as well.



> And Edo Itachi wouldn't stand any chance against KCM or BM Minato.



Actually, it would be a draw, since Minato needs Shiki Fujin to deal with Edo Tensei. :ignoramus

And of course Minato+Kyuubi would be stronger than Itachi, anyway; take the Kyuubi away and give it to Itachi and Minato gets stomped, too.

Without the Kyuubi, they are about the same--Edo Tensei or not.


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## Super Chief (Feb 18, 2014)

Not even a fight. Deidara stomps with low difficulty.


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