# Great Debate Redux: DaVizWiz vs Sloth; Orochimaru vs Deidara



## Turrin (Jul 31, 2013)

*DaVizWiz*



VS

*Sloth*


Range - Long
Location - Forest of Death
Judge - *Alex Payne *
Restrictions: No Edo Tensei for Orochimaru
Knowledge - Manga

Grading Rubric Reference:

*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Feasibility - 25 Points

How likely a strategy purposed is to work. For example if I purpose something basic like someone uses a sound based Jutsu to target someone through Susano'o, that's high feasible since we've seen it done in the manga. However if someone were to purpose an extremely complex strategy like someone bushin fients someone into hitting another bushin, which than paralyzes them so that another bushin can perform x jutsu, than another bushin comes in and does XYZ, well you get the picture; that would certainly score low in this category.

2. IC - 25 Points 

Basically how likely it is for that specific character to use the strategy you purpose. For example if I say Jiraiya summons a Toad, that's pretty IC and would be scored highly here. However If I were to instead say Itachi starts a match using Izanami right away i'm going to need a dam good explanation for why this is IC otherwise i'm probably looking at a low score here.

3. How Well It Works - 35 Points

The difference between this and Feasibility is that this measures how effective your strategy would be in countering X ability if it worked, while Feasibility simply measures the likelihood that your strategy would in-fact work in the first place. The reason why I gave this a bit higher point value in the score is I want there to be a little extra incentive for people to take some risks once and awhile and be creative with their strategies, thinking outside the box. So this way even if they loose some points in feasibility and IC, they can make some up here.

4. Post Formating - 15 Points

Basically how well you put your post together. Is it easy to read, are any links you used accessible, and most importantly did you spend your word count wisely, I.E. did you come up with strategies for jutsu which are defining ones in the match such as how Jiriaya can counter MS techs or did you dick around wasting your word count talking about how Jiriaya's can counter Itachi's base Katons. That sort of stuff. 


​


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## Edward Nygma (Jul 31, 2013)

I love how you went super artsy with the Deidara, and then just went with some dime a dozen screen cap for Oro. Biased much? 

Should be done some time to tomorrow.


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## trance (Jul 31, 2013)

Should be interesting...


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 1, 2013)

When we look at this matchup the big disadvantage for Orochimaru is obviously the distance, which is more or less a KM at start battle. With that being said, it's only a disadvantage to a certain point. Deidara is by far one of the most skilled long ranged fighters in the manga, but to the extent that he is effective will be limited also due to this location. The Forest of Death is an entrapping, gloomy no man's land hidden in massive trees. For some individuals, it can be the perfect stealth field. As it stands, Orochimaru has the tools to be considered one of those individuals who flourishes in this type of a location.

The stealth strategy will obviously be implemented by Orochimaru mainly because he understands Deidara can battle from an extended distance and height without the danger of counter or surprise attack [1], especially with the provided binocular vision of his eyepiece. Deidara understands Orochimaru is a member of the Sanin, a previous Akatsuki member and a man not to toy with. His "stay back and attack" philosophy will be utilized in this battle, and Orochimaru knows it. Orochimaru obviously had a lot of knowledge on the Akatsuki as he had a spy in Kabuto working under Sasori, he analyzed the entire war through Kabuto's eyes in which Deidara did perform, and Obito several times complimented Orochimaru's knowledge on the Akatsuki. He also viewed the entire battle between Sasuke and Deidara from within Sasuke. 

Orochimaru's counter strategy to Deidara's long range capacity will be very effective. His tools to perform at a high level as a stealth killer include:
*STEALTH OPTIONS*:
. LaC, which is a S/T that allows Orochimaru to phase into and become a part of the environment, traveling through and remaining hidden from Deidara.
Burrowing, which is a doton technique that allows the user to sense vibrations in the ground detecting movement and obviously move through it freely while remaining hidden.
and
3. Hiding in his snakes: Which is less conventional, but still a valid route for Orochimaru if he opts to summon several boss snakes to force Deidara in guessing which one he is in as he closes the distance. These snakes are astronomically large and durable [1] to the point of tanking explosive tags in the face and even protecting Sasuke from C0. 
. Mayfly- A jutsu he has not showcased, the standard earth transportation of all Zetsu, and the one he is currently inside. This will allow him to close the distance on the ground between him and Deidara rather quickly undetected. 

With that being said, having the ability to close separation and remain hidden from Deidara won't be effective if he does not have a way to sense his position and reach him to attack. Fortunately, Orochimaru has several options in accomplishing this as well:
*SENSORY OPTIONS*:
1. After taking over a Zetsu body he now has the inflation of Senju DNA which may grant him some type of sensor abilities. 
[2]. Snakes have temperature and scent detection which give him an idea where Deidara was.
[3]. He now has a body [1] that is not only able to sustain the harsh abuse of Nature chakra, but further enhance it (Senju DNA), thus allowing him achieve Sage Mode, a top tier sensory mode.

Orochimaru has the tools to essentially take the long range out of the fight by utilizing the location's stealthy nature. With that being said, once he reaches Deidara, he has several options in closing the distance vertically as we know Deidara will be hovering far above the sky line. Orochimaru's snakes are towering beasts that can stretch themselves a great distance above. By standing on Manda and leaping, Orochimaru can probably reach Deidara to destroy his bird wherever he may be hovering. This can be done on Manda, on anyone of his normal boss snakes which are also astronomically large, and he can probably reach Deidara in his own Hydra Form, which is his trump card in this battle.

Hydra Form's extended reach is enough to suggest Deidara wouldn't be able to escape. Moreover, it's made of white snake properties [1] that have already showcased a knack for tanking Deidara's explosive attacks [2]. Deidara won't be expecting this form of an attack, as such, he will likely be hovering around mid-level in the sky. 

Overall, I don't see Deidara's attacks being effective at all as Orochimaru can outright avoid them by playing stealthy until he reaches him for a blindside attempt through the use of Manda/Hydra's reach suddenly from below the tree line. Orochimaru kills Deidara eventually by traveling undetected through the forest, stopping directly below Deidara and attacking from below blindsiding and dropping Deidara out of the sky through the utilization of his snakes and Hydra Form reach and the offensive ability of a Food Cart Destroyer, his long-reach Kusanagi, overwhelming him with the Manda's striking speed and using his speed which will be enhanced in Sage Mode as a means of blindsiding. He can use all of these attacks in unison, as well as some other variants through the use of bunshins. Deidara cannot attack Orochimaru until he chooses, by which point he would have no chance at surviving his entrapping options which will include several boss summons striking at him in the sky at the same time, bunshins shunshining up to take him out with Kusanagi and wind variants, Orochimaru standing atop Manda dropping FCD Boss Snakes atop Deidara's birds and Sage Orochimaru leaping at him himself entering Hydra in the air and striking Deidara. I'd argue only a simple distraction from a bunshin or summon would allow Sage Orochimaru to land a kill shot, but the bottom line is he has so many more options that it isn't necessary for him to take that gamble.

Clay bunshins as a means of final defense are illogical as Orochimaru has shown the capacity to read into fake bunshins in the past against the likes of Sai, and with Sage Sensing, Zetsu/Senju DNA, Scent and Temperature detection, he's not going to be fooling Orochimaru with a clay clone. 

Deidara's Trump Card, C4, won't be used until Deidara is backed into corner where he has no other option. This won't happen until after he is killed, as explained above, he has no valid route to escape Orochimaru's blindside stealth tactics. Orochimaru also has the option of avoiding death by burrowing below the earth to avoid C2/C3/C4's bombs, leeching into the earth to avoid them, or hopping inside Manda, who burrows away from the AoE of C4 momentarily. He can sense the bombs through Sage Mode, though it's doubtful he does not already know about it since he was inside Sasuke when be battled Deidara. Normally, I don't expect any of Deidara's explosive attacks to be a factor as Orochimaru will blindside before a counter is applicable. 

If all else fails, we know Orochimaru can outlast Deidara as he is an immortal currently residing in a White Zetsu body that does not eat, sleep, drink or tire. Not that it matters, as all the water and food is obviously on the ground. Orochimaru is the one in control here, Deidara stands virtually no chance at avoiding his blindside entrapping techniques (Which include 3+ towering boss snakes, Manda, FCD, Super durable Hydra Form, Kusanagi, SM Orochimaru/Bunshins) once he closes the distance, and he certainly has no chance at outlasting Orochimaru should he opt to simply wait for him to come down to attacking distance as Deidara has no idea Orochimaru has the capacity to find him immediately. 

The bottom line here is Deidara has almost no chance at killing Orochimaru. He has the options of hiding indefinitely from Deidara (Burrowing, LaC, Mayfly), regenerating from his attacks outright should they manage to hit him [1] (Oral Rebirth, WS Regen, Zetsu Recovery), tanking the attacks through the use of his snake summons and white snake variants (Manda, Aoda, Snake Trio, Hydra, Zetsu Durability, SM Durability), and in Sage Mode he likely dances around the attacks regardless as even in base, armless, the guy could dodge and react to chakra arm variants [1] [2] [3] from KN4 Naruto, which were guided, unpredictable, and widely known for their speed. He cannot break Orochimaru's defense and he stands no chance at countering and surviving the meta attack Sage Orochimaru will surprise him with once he finds him.


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## Turrin (Aug 2, 2013)

Nice post DaVizWiz, hopefully sloth get his post out soon.


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## Edward Nygma (Aug 2, 2013)

Working on it now. I shan't abandon you guys.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 2, 2013)

I will judge you.

Harshly.


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## Edward Nygma (Aug 2, 2013)

Not sure I'm really cut out for this. Worked on this for *hours* still only got 707/2100 words. Pretty much reads like a 1v1 KC match 

Anyway, I promised not to abandon you guys, and I shan't. Be gentle AP, I'm sensitive. 
________________________________________________________________
*Mindset*
It?s safe to say that Deidara probably won?t like Orochimaru. Orchimaru is a scientist; he is clinical and calculating. He has no real artistic flare, and isn?t likely to appreciate Deidara?s ?art?.  This tells me Deidara?s mindset will be more or less as it was against Sasuke. 

*Knowledge*
Orochimaru?s reputation, coupled with information Sasori would have shared, should keep Deidara from being caught off guard. Orochimaru was being targeted by Akatsuki, so it makes sense that members would?ve been given any available intel.

*Strategy*
Deidara will begin by creating a Kage Bunshin (KB) and his CS2 Daragon that will immediately barf up landmines. The KB will take the landmines (save 1) and spread them underground, just like Tobi did during the Sasuke fight. When he?s done, he will resurface and wait for Orochimaru. He will also take the one mine he didn?t use, and break it back down into clay. His explosive , so this shouldn't be a problem.

While the KB works, Deidara will create a Nendo Bunshin (NB) to stay atop the dragon, while the real Deidara hides out inside. He will then fly up as high as he can while still being able to see the forest with his scouter. He will do his best to stay directly in front of the sun, so that any attempt to search the sky for him will be futile.  While he is chilling up in the clouds, Deidara will began prepping for the grand finale. He will create a C3 bomb and C1 bird. The bird will take the bomb, and just fly around the dragon waiting for its queue. 

Once both the KB and Deidara are in position, they wait for their prey. It shouldn?t take Orochimaru long to locate Deidara?s KB, with the help of his snakes acute senses. He will launch a long range assault of C1 birds, making it seem like he is doing everything in his power to prevent Orochimaru from entering the mind field. Deidara likes to talk; it is canon, so he?ll do that too. He?ll do whatever he can to make Orochimaru think that he doesn?t want him in the area he planted the mines.  This should ensure that Orochimaru will do just that. If the KB is hit by a lethal attack before Oro enters the mine field, it will throw a small C1 bomb out in front of its self, in order to hide its sudden disappearance. Making it appear as though Deidara just managed to escape.  

As soon as Oro enters the mine field, shit hits the fan.  The KB will disappear, informing Deidara that it?s time. The C1 Bird will then dive bomb straight at the mine field. Deidara will also detonate all of the mines simultaneously, in order to block off all of Oro?s means of escape.  As soon as the bird reaches the canopy of the forest, Deidara will activate the C3 bomb, causing it to expand and .  

This explosion should kill everything in a ?? radius. None of Oro?s summons are going to be able to survive an explosion of this magnitude. Orochimaru himself has never actually survived a direct hit from something this large, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt, simply based on who he is. However, he will not come out unscathed, and will have had to resort to Oral Rebirth in order to survive.

Working on the assumption that Oro survived. Deidara will move on to his finishing move. Working as quickly as he can, as not to give Oro too much time to recover, Deidara will create his C4 giant. Orochimaru isn?t likely to have any knowledge on this technique, so just like Sasuke, he will attempt to outrun the ensuing blast or shield himself with summons.  This will of course do nothing to protect him. 

Even Oral Rebirth should not be able to save him from this. For one, by the time he realizes what?s happening, he will already be disintegrating.  Even if he could spit up a new body before dying, that body would just inhale the bombs again. Sasuke was only able to counter this technique because he could see what was happening. Orochimaru is not so lucky.


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## Turrin (Aug 2, 2013)

So I'm not the judge but I thought I'd give my thoughts anyway:

*DaVizWiz*

*Feasibility*

 Some of your strategy of Orochimaru using stealth tactics and the cover of the forest seem very feasible, however i'm  a bit unsure how that will work if Deidara starts dropping bombs with huge AOE over and over again, so it seems like a temporary measure, except if Mayfly works. The  usage of Summons, Yamata, & Ksunagi to reach Deidara's height and attack him is good. Using Doton to escape underground to evade also good. 

However I do have a few concerns. The idea that Orochimaru can now use SM (it also seems like a Perfect SM since it has sensing) due to gaining Zetsu's body seems a bit less feasible to me as we don't know Orochimaru's level of skill with Senjutsu, just because he has the body for it doesn't mean he'll automatically be able to balance natural energy with physical/spiritual energy well enough to enter SM, let alone a PSM. With that said it's not something that would completely surprise me ether if Orochi pulled it out. Like-wise i view Orochimaru having the mayfly technique in similar way to PSM, as he just got the body so i'm not sure he could use all it's techniques yet.  

The C4 counter is a bit troubling as well since it relies so heavily on PSM working or Deidara already being dead, besides the basic he see's a giant bomb so he dotons part, which again I think is a fine counter so that makes up for it a bit. I didn't see any counter for CO though, which is a bit troubling as well.

Overall I was never thinking to myself this is impossible when reading the strat, but I was thinking to myself a few times that this might not work. So I think i'd place this somewhere in the middle of the road point wise: 15 points

*IC*
The idea of Orochimaru running away and hiding in the forest seems pretty OOC to me considering his arrogance as does him pulling out so many Snake Summons and Yamata no Orochi at the same time. With that said the rest of this seems IC, assuming he is capable of PSM. 

So again I think I'd give this middle of the road score maybe a bit better than feasibility since it's a little hard to tell of Orochimaru would be as arrogant against an Akatsuki member after this defeat at the hands of Itachi. So about; 18 points 

*How Well it Works*
The good news is if Orochimaru can use PSM and Mayfly that makes parts of this strat such hard counters to Deidara's abilities that this Strat would be insanely efficient in countering Deidara's abilities, especially mayfly because it will allow him to retreat in this forest area making use of the root system so quickly he'll be able to evade almost all of Deidara's bombs. I also tend to think Summons + Yamata no Orochi + Ksunagi would also be very effective in clipping Deidara's wings. 

I would have liked to see more usage of Orochimaru's other abilities though like Fuuton Daittopa and Kage Bushin as I think they could have been quite effective here. It also hurts you a bit that no strat for CO such a dangerous jutsu, means there's nothing to work with.

Overall Great Job here though, really creative with PSM/Mayfly, etc... So Points: 30

*Post Format*
Spent your word count pretty wisely, again a bit more time on CO would have been nice, but otherwise it was fine. It was formatted in a pretty easy way to read, though I do prefer a bit if you would have sectioned each jutsu off, like:

*C1-C2*
Here's how he counters Blah Blah

*C3*
Here's how he counters Blah Blah

See my post in the Sasori vs Deidara thread to see a better example. Though this might just be personal preference on my part anyway. Links are also used well

So: 12 Points

Total: 75

*Sloth*

*Feasibility*
Not much to say, nothing you suggest does not seem feasible to me, as much of it Deidara already displayed the capability to do.

So: 25 Points

*IC*
My problem with this is that there seems like a-lot of precautions being taken at many different phases of this strat that seem OOC for someone as arrogant as Deidara. Such as immediately pulling out both C2 Dragon and a KB right at the start. To me Deidara is kind of so dumb some times I feel like there is good odds IC he uses C1 first, heck he did it against Sasuke who he thought defeated Orochimaru. Like-wise the instant prep of C3 also seems like a precaution i'm not sure Deidara would take.

However the rest of it seems fairly IC to me, like using a KB to spread the mines since Obito isn't there, etc....

So about; 15 points

*How Well it Works*
A-lot of this is traditional Deidara strats, just happening a bit quicker than they normally would which makes them more effective. I did appreciate the idea of using a C1 bird to deploy C3, that would be especially effective an awesome at countering Orochimaru's chances to snipe it down. The thing is i'm not sure if Diedara uses KB, I thought he uses Clay Bushin which might not give him intel when they disperse. I also like the sun in the eyes idea.

I would have liked to see something a little bit more outside of the box and a little bit more focus on how to counter Orochimaru's Jutsu, considering at times it seems like you focusing more on how to kill Orochimaru than counter his Jutsu, and while that does show how to counter some of Oro's Jutsu from an offensive standpoint, but not as much from a defensive stand-point. I'm also not sure how much the traditional stuff Deidara has would work on Oro.

So it's about 23 points for me here

*Post Format*
Was easy to read, links were used alright, however your post is a bit on the small side and I feel like you had so many more words you could have used for your cause and considering even with a much smaller post than Daz you did quite well I just can't help thinking what the potential of a more fleshed out post would hold. 

Also like I said to Daz I kind of prefer to format where you have sectioned each jutsu off, like:

*C1-C2*
Here's how he counters Blah Blah

*C3*
Here's how he counters Blah Blah

See my post in the Sasori vs Deidara thread to see a better example. Though this might just be personal preference on my part anyway. Links are also used well


So about; 8 points 

Total: 71 points

*Conclusion*
Very close, both of you did great & excelled in different areas, but if I was judging (which maybe luckily for sloth i'm not) I'd give Daz the slight edge here due to his strat being a bit more effective and creative. I think this small edge is mostly due to Daz utilizing his word count a bit more than Sloth to flesh his strat out a bit more and offer a bit more strats as well.

So there are my thoughts, and now all we can do is wait for the actual judge (Alex) and see if we concur or disagree. Though I will also say that I personally think Sloth had the harder character to argue for as I generally consider Orochimaru stronger than Deidara and Deidara is held back by his own flights of stupidity where he tries to take people on with C1 and not fly away right away to C2. So i'm kind of glad i'm not the judge as I can admit a little bias towards Orochimaru or perhaps more accurately against Deidara due to his stupidity, even though I did try to be as impartial in my assessment as possible, I could see someone awarding Sloth a bit higher than I in the IC portion for this reason.


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## Edward Nygma (Aug 2, 2013)

Are we allowed to converse with non-judges about their comments?


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2013)

Sloth said:


> Are we allowed to converse with non-judges about their comments?


Sure why not, you just can't rebuttal your opponents argument, so as long as it just has to do with what I wrote about your post, than were cool.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 4, 2013)

Counters weren't really required for C1, C2, and C3. The stealth strategy I provided automatically makes targeting him impossible, all three require targeting. Moreover, I did sum up at the bottom how his speed, regeneration and advanced durability further make any of these techniques even less effective against Orochimaru. It's an overlapping defense that Deidara cannot overcome. 

C0 is a suicidial attack, he dies as soon as he explodes. Sasuke already countered it with Manda meat tank regardless. Moreover, LaC and burrowing clearly allow him to escape the blast radius- something I already provided in the thread against C4, something with a larger radius. 

I clearly didn't individually address C0, C1, C2, C3 and C4 because it didn't require such. 3 out of 5 require targeting which is impossible in this location with Orochimaru's skillset, another one is an automatic loss by default and highly OOC, and the last I did actually address individually with several counters (C4). 

Furthermore, at no point did I suggest Orochimaru running into the forest. You started this battle at long distance at a location where it is a forest. Orochimaru's strategy, through my words, was him stealthy moving through the forest via Mayfly, LaC, Burrowing and snakes to reach Deidara's position 1KM away. Once he reached him, he utilizes his arsenal and summons to kill Deidara via blindsiding. Deidara dropping bombs randomly would be a waste of clay, time, and effort. If you're actually suggesting Deidara randomly drops bombs in the forest wasting clay in the hope that his attack kills Orochimaru- who has 2-3 techniques that would allow him to avoid the damage altogether- wow. Burrowing, Leech all creation and Mayfly counter all of Deidara's techniques- not to mention his Durable and high-speed Summons, White Snake Durability, his Zetsu Durability, his sage mode speed/durability, his advanced regeneration, and his pre-cog sage sensing that would utterly make any of Deidara's techniques nearly pointless to begin with- all of which I provided. 

I actually think you scored it rather low, the fact that I came 4 points from losing is quite mind boggling as in no point in your conclusion post did you actually state how Deidara would threaten Orochimaru in any way.

Overall, my immediate thoughts on the scoring system through this example is it's highly flawed. By your score, I nearly lost because I did not address Deidara's different types of exploding bombs- when Orochimaru's strategy and the location/distance altogether nullified them to begin with- something I explained rather well. I nearly lost because you think Deidara's randomly dropped bombs, starting at a distance of 1KM, in a maze of endless tree cover would counter Orochimar's undetected stealth strategy and flawless sage sensing. I nearly lost because you think I didn't address a C0- an attack that destroys Deidara as soon as it's utilized- is highly out of character and could be avoided as easily as C4 was- giving Orochimaru the win by default. 

Thanks for the feedback.


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## Turrin (Aug 5, 2013)

We really need to judge in here.


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## EnergySage (Aug 5, 2013)

Have you PM'd AP to remind him? If he doesn't respond, let me know and I'll do it


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## Alex Payne (Aug 5, 2013)

Judgment is cooking, no worries


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## Alex Payne (Aug 5, 2013)

​

*DaVizWiz*

*Feasibility - 22/25*

Buying majority of Orochimaru's moves and tactics. With the exception of Sage Mode and Zetsu's abilities. Zetsu's abilities are likely to be available but there is still nothing definitive to suggest that he can use Sage Mode just like that. You didn't rely on them in your strat so I took just a couple of points. Rest is very Orochimaru-esque and plausible. 

*IC - 17/25* 

Not buying Oro IC choosing stealth-heavy strategy. He is overconfident and saw all of Deidara's abilities(and defeat). Oro does employ stealth-elements though and I see him starting the fight like you've described. But attrition strat is completely OOC imo. It isn't even needed - Deidara is reliant on his Clay supplies which are limited and easily exhausted by spamming powerful attacks(and he can't kill Oro without those... + should be aware of that). Aside of that - your choice of moves is Oro-esque.

*How Well It Works - 30/35 *

Choosing OOC attrition-based strat is extremely effective by itself. Everything else is solid too. Snakes, Kusanagi, etc. Decking points for  underestimating Garuda and Deidara's willingness to use it. And ignoring the possibility of close-proximity C0. You had full knowledge and all them counters in the world to write a better counter-orders.

*Post Formating - 11/15 *

Somewhat better formatting/part-splitting is needed imo. Was a bit difficult to read. Minor issue. Links are there. Normal-to-decent formatting.

*Overall - 80/100 *

*Sloth*

*Feasibility - 24/25*

Everything is good. Except Deidara's knowledge. He doesn't know _that_ much about Orochimaru to set some of his moves up. He knows a good amount for like 98% of your orders so it's not a problem. 

*IC - 24/25* 

Deidaralicious all right. But a bit too smart for him imo. 

*How Well It Works - 20/35 *

Sloth, my boy. Messing the Knowledge part again  Oro knows all and Garuda part is weakened by that. You also ignored the possibility of KBs or snake spam coming first - messing up your trap. This matchup isn't balanced imo so it was hard for you to score in this. But still, some contingencies/what-ifs would have been nice. Or a different order of C#(Oro doesn't know about C3). No FINAL ORDER with C0 usage. You still did good imo. 

*Post Formating - 11/15 *

It was neat and clean  Easier to read than your opponent's. But NO LINKS. Maybe I forgot something important about Deidara?? 

*Overall - 79/100 *​

Oh, well. I didn't play with overall score for it to be that close. Matchup is a bit unbalanced as I've said. But with more TIME AND EFFORT spent Sloth might've won with better orders and formating. Or bribing. Good job, both of you. It was a good read.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 6, 2013)

A near complete copy of Turrin's judging pattern.

It's truly sad that Orocihmaru outbeats Deidara, in a stealth location, with full knowledge, by only one fucking point. How is that even conceivable?

I should have received a 35 in "How well it works", as it was flawless. "IC" should have also been perfect. Stealth was Orochimaru's only option, starting 1KM from a flying long range opponent in a fucking rain forest. Arrogance means nothing with those stipulations- it's common sense to stealth to Deidara. 

I didn't categorize parts of my post with "Knowledge, Mindset and Strategy" so the dude takes off 4 points out of formatting, giving me the same score as Sloth- who used roughly 1/5 the links I provided and the same paragraph format. 

Thanks for the chance Turrin. Based on the double judging I've received, the scoring system is pretty ridiculous. In no way, shape or form should Deidara defeat Orochimaru in a stealth location, with full knowledge. Based on that fact alone, I feel the scoring system and judging is flawed as 1 point from a loss is fucking atrocious. If Deidara had won with what Sloth had provided, you can be sure I wouldn't even bother putting in my opinion. 

I won't be spending time formatting an essay again until there's more than one judge, and a different scoring system. This conclusion was pretty much garbage.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 6, 2013)

Two completely different people with completely different views(I disagree with Turrin on pretty much everything) had the same opinion on the subject. Seems to me that you you simply didn't fully get what was required from you. Presentation is a vital part of any debate btw.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 6, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Two completely different people with completely different views(I disagree with Turrin on pretty much everything) had the same opinion on the subject. Seems to me that you you simply didn't fully get what was required from you. Presentation is a vital part of any debate btw.


No it's not, what matters is which of the two win the battle.

I wrote a fucking essay. Did you actually just suggest I didn't understand the scoring system required for that essay? 

The scoring system provided is garbage, character formatting and IC are completely subjective to the judge's opinion and yours was pretty illogical.

You had a close win for me, just as Turrin did, anyone who scores this without a large win in the favor of Orochimaru, who had every advantage, shouldn't really be judging.

My criticisms largely go toward Turrin as to the flaws in the scoring and judging system, you had no reason to further reply.


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## Turrin (Aug 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> A near complete copy of Turrin's judging pattern.
> 
> It's truly sad that Orocihmaru outbeats Deidara, in a stealth location, with full knowledge, by only one fucking point. How is that even conceivable?
> 
> ...


Only part of this is about who would win in a fight, while the more major part is about how well the post and strategies you design are conducive to that, while keeping in mind what's IC. So who is stronger isn't going to decide matches

The reason the scoring for your post is low in certain areas as a great deal of it relies on techniques that Orochimaru might be able to use, but that he ultimately he hasn't shown them. That makes for a very interesting and creative read, but not one that is going to get perfect marks. Like wise you also utilized a strat that relies on Orochimaru being extremely cautious, which is not his typical MO, so you can't expect perfect marks in the IC portion ether. Remember there was a forest in the heaven and earth bridge confrontation yet Orochimaru did not rely on stealth tactics there ether, despite being up against KN Transformation which pack a great deal of raw power.

As for how it works, I took off 3 points because you provided no counter for CO, which is a major Jutsu of Deidara's in this match and when it comes to a strat that revolves around stealth tactics, since CO can level the entire forest rendering stealth useless and 2 point basically because I thought you could have made better usage of some of Orochimaru's other abilities, to give a basic break down of my ratings.

As for more judges, your match was actually the one match of the batch that had two different people giving their opinions on it and they were not that fart off from each other. I honestly don't get the gripe about winning by X amount of points, I mean who cares, you won after all and I don't think if you won by 1 point or 5 it really matters. Also I think it's kind of expected that your scores would be close, because on one hand you have someone who is using a very out of the box strategy (you) and the other person is using a very tried and true strategy (Sloth), so you represent opposite ends of the spectrum. Sloth will excel in IC and Feasibility, while you will excel more in how it works, and that's pretty much what decided. However it's still going to be close, because both of you also have weak areas; IC/feasibility for you and How it Works for Sloth. The best post would be one that tries to capture out of the box thinking and the tried and true strategies at the same time, which is a very difficult thing to do, which is why it's unlikely that someone is going to win by a massive point differential.

So yeah I don't see a problem here. The only thing I think you could argue is maybe that you deserve a bit more points than sloth in the formating, but even if Alex agreed to this and gave you a few more points, it's not going to change anything as you'd still won, but now you'd have just won but a few more points, and again it's like who cares.




alex payne said:


> Two completely different people with completely different views(I disagree with Turrin on pretty much everything) had the same opinion on the subject. Seems to me that you you simply didn't fully get what was required from you. Presentation is a vital part of any debate btw.


Alex would you want to judge my Sasori vs Deidara match since subtle could not do it?


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## EnergySage (Aug 6, 2013)

The scoring system is about the debator though. The only thing that is about the character themselves is the content. The feasibility is about whether or not what YOU came up with would work. YOUR presentation is judged. This is not a standard battledome where its Orochimaru vs Deidara with stipulations. Its not judged on who wins or loses in that format, or how much they win by. This is all based on you. I've seen Turrin and AP in here for a long time. There's no bias on their part. The judging system is perfectly fine. They both, separately, came to oughly the same conclusion about this matchup, though their opinions differ greatly on a lot of aspects. 

Rather than throw a fit about how someone, somewhere, doesn't think you're perfect, how about you give congrats to your opponent for a job well done, and thank the judges for taking their time to evaluate and organize.

They worked just as hard as you did, and their opinions just weren't the same. That's what happens in here.


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## Turrin (Aug 6, 2013)

EnergySage said:


> The scoring system is about the debator though. The only thing that is about the character themselves is the content. The feasibility is about whether or not what YOU came up with would work. YOUR presentation is judged. This is not a standard battledome where its Orochimaru vs Deidara with stipulations. Its not judged on who wins or loses in that format, or how much they win by. This is all based on you. I've seen Turrin and AP in here for a long time. There's no bias on their part. The judging system is perfectly fine. They both, separately, came to oughly the same conclusion about this matchup, though their opinions differ greatly on a lot of aspects.
> 
> Rather than throw a fit about how someone, somewhere, doesn't think you're perfect, how about you give congrats to your opponent for a job well done, and thank the judges for taking their time to evaluate and organize.
> 
> They worked just as hard as you did, and their opinions just weren't the same. That's what happens in here.



Yeah I actually think if anything this match shows that the rating system works well as Alex and had some differing opinions, but came to a same ultimate result that the match was close. If I saw a massive difference in Alex and my conclusions in terms of how close the match was, than I'd honestly be more worried about the rating system's then I am now.

PS: if you want to judge my Sasori vs Deidara match that would work too.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Alex would you want to judge my Sasori vs Deidara match since subtle could not do it?


No problem.


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## Language of Life (Aug 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> A near complete copy of Turrin's judging pattern.
> 
> It's truly sad that Orocihmaru outbeats Deidara, in a stealth location, with full knowledge, by only one fucking point. How is that even conceivable?
> 
> ...



Case and point of the one of the biggest problems i feel will plague this "Great Debate".
Poor sports who can't handle the fact that the judges will not see everything in the same way they do and will bitch and whine when the results do not come out as they had hoped. Even if they did win overall.
Your a good debater Davis, better than many i have seen on here, and quite a bit better than myself, but you have a poor attitude and you clearly did not know what you were getting into if you thought that your opinion on how well you did was going to matter. Turrin clearly laid out the guidelines of this debate, if you don't like how they turned out then leave respectably with your suggestions on how to improve the debate and stop whining on how you thought these results were a travesty.


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## Turrin (Aug 6, 2013)

alex payne said:


> No problem.


Thanks man

Here's a link to the thread, since it go pushed a few pages back:


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 6, 2013)

> Only part of this is about who would win in a fight, while the more major part is about how well the post and strategies you design are conducive to that, while keeping in mind what's IC. So who is stronger isn't going to decide matches


Are you suggesting the winner of a debate can be the one defending the losing character?

There should ALWAYS be an underlining mindset to judging that the person who is debating FOR the winning combatant SHOULD always win the debate. 



> The reason the scoring for your post is low in certain areas as a great deal of it relies on techniques that Orochimaru might be able to use, but that he ultimately he hasn't shown them. That makes for a very interesting and creative read, but not one that is going to get perfect marks. Like wise you also utilized a strat that relies on Orochimaru being extremely cautious, which is not his typical MO, so you can't expect perfect marks in the IC portion ether. Remember there was a forest in the heaven and earth bridge confrontation yet Orochimaru did not rely on stealth tactics there ether, despite being up against KN Transformation which pack a great deal of raw power.


What the fuck are you talking about Turrin?

Everything I brought about in the post were techniques that Orochimaru has shown the capability of using. Please, list examples of what is impossible or unlikely for him to use.

Likewise, list examples of what is OOC for Orocihmaru, starting 1KM out, in a gloomy forest with no idea where Deidara is. Please, educate me on how Orochimaru would approach the situation differently than how I specified. Is he going to run around the forest screaming Deidara's name hoping for him to drop a C3 on his fucking cranium? Or is he going to utilize the quiet, undetectable mobile techniques and his sensory abilities to find Deidara, attack and kill him?

Which is Orocihmaru MORE likely to do? 



> As for how it works, I took off 3 points because you provided no counter for CO, which is a major Jutsu of Deidara's in this match and when it comes to a strat that revolves around stealth tactics, since CO can level the entire forest rendering stealth useless and 2 point basically because I thought you could have made better usage of some of Orochimaru's other abilities, to give a basic break down of my ratings.


C0 is a fucking suicidal last resort nuke that is perhaps the most OOC technique than any in the manga. Once Deidara uses it- its' an automatic win for Orochimaru. He dies immediately. I listed examples on how he avoids C4- the same time of attack. How do you not make the connection- Burrowing, Leech all creation, Mayfly- they ALL counter it.

This, aside from the fact that SEVERAL times during the debate I boldly pointed out that Orochimaru's stealth strategy would allow him to kill Deidara before he could even find Orochimaru to target him. You both scored me a 30/35 in how well it works, meaning you pretty much agreed that Deidara had no chance at countering my stealth strategy. This being the most mind boggling part of it. 



> As for more judges, your match was actually the one match of the batch that had two different people giving their opinions on it and they were not that fart off from each other. I honestly don't get the gripe about winning by X amount of points, I mean who cares, you won after all and I don't think if you won by 1 point or 5 it really matters. Also I think it's kind of expected that your scores would be close, because on one hand you have someone who is using a very out of the box strategy (you) and the other person is using a very tried and true strategy (Sloth), so you represent opposite ends of the spectrum. Sloth will excel in IC and Feasibility, while you will excel more in how it works, and that's pretty much what decided. However it's still going to be close, because both of you also have weak areas; IC/feasibility for you and How it Works for Sloth. The best post would be one that tries to capture out of the box thinking and the tried and true strategies at the same time, which is a very difficult thing to do, which is why it's unlikely that someone is going to win by a massive point differential.


Dude, your blowing off the scoring system because I'm giving my opinion on how fucking terrible it is? I don't care if I won- the scoring system by which I won is flawed. 

Your scoring system is flawed Turrin. This is not me complaining, this is me trying to invoke wisdom on how ridiculous your stipulations are. You and Alex judged categories differently in some cases by a margin of 9 points. Do you understand how fucking terrible that is? The highest point count for a category in this debate is 35. In the category you two disagreed on, Sloth's "IC" (25), there was a 35% difference in scoring. *Turrin*: (15/25) *AP*: (24/25). Do you understand how many wins and loses that will affect? In a separate category you guys disagreed on there was a 7 point difference. My "Feasibility" *Turrin*: (15/25) *AP*: (22/25). That's a 28% difference in scoring. 

1. You need more judges
2. You need better categories
3. You need less points



> So yeah I don't see a problem here. The only thing I think you could argue is maybe that you deserve a bit more points than sloth in the formating, but even if Alex agreed to this and gave you a few more points, it's not going to change anything as you'd still won, but now you'd have just won but a few more points, and again it's like who cares.


That category alone needs to be taken out. The fact that you immediately suggested he was wrong in judging my formatting score means you agree that the category itself is subjective to purely the judge's opinion, which varies.



> Case and point of the one of the biggest problems i feel will plague this "Great Debate".
> Poor sports who can't handle the fact that the judges will not see everything in the same way they do and will bitch and whine when the results do not come out as they had hoped. Even if they did win overall.
> Your a good debater Davis, better than many i have seen on here, and quite a bit better than myself, but you have a poor attitude and you clearly did not know what you were getting into if you thought that your opinion on how well you did was going to matter. Turrin clearly laid out the guidelines of this debate, if you don't like how they turned out then leave respectably with your suggestions on how to improve the debate and stop whining on how you thought these results were a travesty.


I won, what reason do I have to complain in spite?

What I just witnessed is complete scoring inconsistency between two judges, and ridiculous categories that almost admitted Deidara a winner over Orochimaru with full knowledge in the Forest of Death.

This, after I spent time out of my day to write a 1600 word essay about how impossible it is for the former to kill the later. I competed, posted handsomely early in the time frame allowed, you WILL respect my opinion- I've earned my voice. 

I've laid out my suggestions, if you cannot read between the lines of my distasteful language in the advent of reviewing the ridiculously comical judging patterns of the two, then you're welcome to leave just as quickly.

The only reason why I use distasteful language that you consider "whining" is because as an adamant, dedicated debater I cannot begin to fathom how Deidara comes 1 point out of 100 from defeating Orochimaru in the Forest of Death, with full knowledge. Granted this was an evaluation of our strategies, the fact that the score was so close is a fucking slap in the face of logic itself. It won't go unaddressed on my watch, not on this forum, not when my name is part of this debate. I won't let logic tank over forum popularity, I don't give a darn how distasteful it is. As such, the categories need to be adjusted, as does the point counts. More judges means more opinions, lowering the chance of stupidity and/or prevalent bias.

If you took my comments as anything but constructive criticism, then you're blatantly, out of pure laziness, avoiding the flaws in your system.


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## Ennoia (Aug 6, 2013)

I would agree with Viz on the point of Oro playing stealth not to be OOC considering his skillset caters to that kind of fighting style. I would not consider Oro to be arrogant at all rather he knows his limitations and going out into an open field against a flying opponent with bombs where he has nothing to counter but Kusanagi is not really something a genius would do. He admitted inferiority to both Itachi and Sasuke when he was revived as well sa dying to the Bijuu Bomb so he is not arrogant enough to put his life on the line doing something stupid.

EDIT: If anything Deidara is the more arrogant character more likely to engage Oro in the forest.

While SM might be a bit of a stretch (but not really considering he forced Kabuto out of it implying he has some control over it) and using Mayfly may not be likely I would think that Viz's is the more likely to occur despite both arguments being really good. My main problem with the other post is that clones cut Deidara's chakra in half so his abilities will be extremely limited while it is out as well as the fact that placing bombs in the ground of a forest with huge trees isnt the brightest idea; last time we saw Oro in the forest he stayed on branches.

Looking strictly at the juding I would say that Alex shouldnt have removed so many points for IC and thus Viz should have won. At the same time perhaps raging isnt the best way to go about the problem.


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## EnergySage (Aug 6, 2013)

Viz did win. He's just complaining that he didn't win hard enough.

As far as the scoring, the margin of win is irrelevant to the characters involved. Its the quality of the post, how IC the strategy is, can your character do what you want them to,and how effective it would be.

For example, if the debate was something STUPIDLY lopsided. Like, Part 1 Kakashi vs SM Jiraiya. 

If I were the judge, under the effectiveness, i'd give Kakashi points based on how long he survives, not if he wins


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## Ennoia (Aug 6, 2013)

Oh ok I thought he was mad because he lost (Turrin's scoring was kind of hard for me to follow, not going to lie I skipped it). But yea Deidara doing that seems like it would be less IC and dependent on Oro falling for Deidara's taunts and walking into a mine field as well as the clone thing I mentioned before so less feasible to me as well. Perhaps the spread should have been larger but thats just my opinion.


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## Akitō (Aug 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> There should ALWAYS be an underlining mindset to judging that the person who is debating FOR the winning combatant SHOULD always win the debate.



Eh, no. Then there would be no point to these formal debates because the arguments wouldn't matter. The only thing that'd determine the outcome would be the judges' preconceived views on how the match would go. If it's a match that a judge is fixed on, the best poster in the world wouldn't be able to 'win' the debate if he's arguing for the side that the judge thinks is the losing one. Is that fair to you? Remember that the contestants were assigned the characters they're to argue for, so it's not like they have any say in the matter.


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## Turrin (Aug 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Are you suggesting the winner of a debate can be the one defending the losing character?
> 
> There should ALWAYS be an underlining mindset to judging that the person who is debating FOR the winning combatant SHOULD always win the debate.
> .


This tells me you don't understand what were doing here, since we're evaluating the debater, not what character would win the match.



> Likewise, list examples of what is OOC for Orocihmaru, starting 1KM out, in a gloomy forest with no idea where Deidara is. Please, educate me on how Orochimaru would approach the situation differently than how I specified. Is he going to run around the forest screaming Deidara's name hoping for him to drop a C3 on his fucking cranium? Or is he going to utilize the quiet, undetectable mobile techniques and his sensory abilities to find Deidara, attack and kill him?
> 
> Which is Orocihmaru MORE likely to do?


He's more likely to come out of the forest going "Kukuku"

Again that's exactly what he did at the heaven earth bridge despite Team 7 not knowing he was there.



> C0 is a fucking suicidal last resort nuke that is perhaps the most OOC technique than any in the manga. Once Deidara uses it- its' an automatic win for Orochimaru. He dies immediately. I listed examples on how he avoids C4- the same time of attack. How do you not make the connection- Burrowing, Leech all creation, Mayfly- they ALL counter it.
> 
> This, aside from the fact that SEVERAL times during the debate I boldly pointed out that Orochimaru's stealth strategy would allow him to kill Deidara before he could even find Orochimaru to target him. You both scored me a 30/35 in how well it works, meaning you pretty much agreed that Deidara had no chance at countering my stealth strategy. This being the most mind boggling part of it.


How is it mind boggling, I only took away a mere 5 points for this. It's not like you got a low score.



> Your scoring system is flawed Turrin. This is not me complaining, this is me trying to invoke wisdom on how ridiculous your stipulations are. You and Alex judged categories differently in some cases by a margin of 9 points. Do you understand how fucking terrible that is? The highest point count for a category in this debate is 35. In the category you two disagreed on, Sloth's "IC" (25), there was a 35% difference in scoring. Turrin: (15/25) AP: (24/25). Do you understand how many wins and loses that will affect? In a separate category you guys disagreed on there was a 7 point difference. My "Feasibility" Turrin: (15/25) AP: (22/25). That's a 28% difference in scoring.


People are going to have different opinions on certain areas, that is unavoidable. What matters is that despite our differing opinions, we came to the same conclusion, your victory.



> That category alone needs to be taken out. The fact that you immediately suggested he was wrong in judging my formatting score means you agree that the category itself is subjective to purely the judge's opinion, which varies.


I didn't say he was I said I find it debatable, again there are going to be differing opinions, what matters is the conclusion. If we had people doing full write ups and concluding sloth is the victor than i'd be worried.

Edit; Aside from that this is a trail for a reason and I will take everything into consideration when the trail is over, but i'm not seeing a problem with this particular match. After the trail is over we can re-assess and see how things worked.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 6, 2013)

Akitō said:


> Eh, no. Then there would be no point to these formal debates because the arguments wouldn't matter. The only thing that'd determine the outcome would be the judges' preconceived views on how the match would go. If it's a match that a judge is fixed on, the best poster in the world wouldn't be able to 'win' the debate if he's arguing for the side that the judge thinks is the losing one. Is that fair to you? Remember that the contestants were assigned the characters they're to argue for, so it's not like they have any say in the matter.


These "great" debates were selected because there wasn't a clear public view on who would win. IMO, this was and is a bad matchup. Initially, I don't know who came up with it or why- Orochimaru is at least a tier above Deidara. 

With that being said, to allow a debater to be named the winner over the other, when their combatant is a clear loser is far from logical. I don't want to take part in that form of a debate, it drives away from the purpose of why we're debating- to find a consensus on which combatant would defeat the other more times than not in matchups that make most debaters scratch their heads.



> This tells me you don't understand what were doing here, since we're evaluating the debater, not what character would win the match.


What the fuck are you talking about?

The point of these debates are to find a clear consensus on matchups that have plagued debaters for awhile and to subsequently eliminate fanboyism throughout the dome. In other words, who wins out of the two characters. 



> He's more likely to come out of the forest going "Kukuku"


You can't leave the forest- it's the fucking battlefield.

Orochimaru walks into an open field in plain sight against a man he understands fights at long range with massive explosive offensive Ninjutsu?

I hope to god you don't judge another competition. That level of logic warrants an immediate slap in the face and a junk kick. 



> How is it mind boggling, I only took away a mere 5 points for this. It's not like you got a low score.


5 points out of 100 is 5% of a score that I nearly lost by a margin of 1%. It means a lot, how the fuck can you say otherwise? 



> People are going to have different opinions on certain areas, that is unavoidable. What matters is that despite our differing opinions, we came to the same conclusion, your victory.


It won't work like that in every debate. Using this scoring system, you will fuck up and screw over a clear winner the next time around. 

IMO, you are ridiculous in suggesting you came to the same conclusion. With a 1% variation in AP's score this fucking debate would be a draw. 



> I didn't say he was I said I find it debatable, again there are going to be differing opinions, what matters is the conclusion. If we had people doing full write ups and concluding sloth is the victor than i'd be worried.


But that's exactly what nearly happened here- the dude came a point from drawing with me. One point out of 100. Dude, I beat him by 1%. You should be fucking worried. 



> Edit; Aside from that this is a trail for a reason and I will take everything into consideration when the trail is over, but i'm not seeing a problem with this particular match. After the trail is over we can re-assess and see how things worked.


The problem is prevalent- your scoring system warrants a 28-35% scoring difference on several categories between you and other judges. Your scoring system warrants a near win for Deidara over Current Orochimaru with full knowledge in a forest.

It's garbage. That level of variation between judging in any fucking competition is utter chaos. That's like watching a slam dunk competition, and one dude giving a 7 on a 360 behind the back dunk, when the other two judges give him a 10. The athlete would throw the fucking ball in his face. Here, take the ball Turrin, do something constructive with it.


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## Akitō (Aug 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> These "great" debates were selected because there wasn't a clear public view on who would win.



The public doesn't have a clear view (and even _that_ isn't the case in several of these matches), but almost every individual has a clear view, and that's what matters. Take Itachi vs. Sannin as an example: that's for some reason a match that the community is (sort of) split on. If I'm judging a formal debate that's using the match, and I clearly go in thinking that the Sannin would win, should I just automatically vote for whoever is arguing for the Sannin? That isn't fair at all. 

I get what you're saying, but it's a bit too idealistic. The individual judges almost all have their own opinions on which characters are the strongest, so if you want them to vote according to those opinions, then it's just a game of who the judges are. You could have a pool of Itachi fans who all think Itachi beats Nagato - even if you think your arguments are clearly better than your opponent's, they'd just be voting based on their own beliefs. That is, if we're to use your method of scoring at least. Because there's absolutely no way we could have a large enough sample size to accurately portray the unclear view of the public in total, it doesn't really matter that there's no general consensus. 

It'd be awesome if we had judges who were entirely unsure of who'd win a match, and then you'd have a good point: they'd just vote for whoever convinced them of the victor. That's a very rare case though, so really it's an unspoken rule amongst the judges that if you think it's extremely obvious as to who'd win, put aside those feelings and try to base your vote on who used what they had the best.

If I'm judging an Itachi vs. Sannin match (I  strongly favor the Sannin, by the way) and the Itachi contestant gives me this really well cited argument that used everything in the contestant's repertiore, and the Sannin contestant created a half-assed essay that didn't really highlight the key points, who should I vote for? The Itachi advocate, who obviously used the info he had available to its highest degree, or the Sannin advocate, who made an awful argument that was really only believable because his side was (IMO) the easier side to argue for? It's pretty obvious that if this contest is about crowning the best debater, I'd have to vote for the Itachi advocate. 



> IMO, this was and is a bad matchup. Initially, I don't know who came up with it or why- Orochimaru is at least a tier above Deidara.



Yeah, you're right about this. Not sure if it's as one-sided as you're making it out to be, but I think it's pretty obvious that Orochimaru is the clear favorite. 



> to find a consensus on which combatant would defeat the other more times than not in matchups that make most debaters scratch their heads.



No. That's where you're wrong, I think. The purpose of these debates is to find out who the best debater is. That's why when we declare a winner, we state the member's name, not the character's. If we wanted a consensus, we wouldn't be having so few judges judging these matches, nor would we make them write out a full analysis. We'd just plop a poll in the thread and see what the general pop. thinks.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 6, 2013)

> The public doesn't have a clear view (and even _that_ isn't the case in several of these matches), but almost every individual has a clear view, and that's what matters. Take Itachi vs. Sannin as an example: that's for some reason a match that the community is (sort of) split on. If I'm judging a formal debate that's using the match, and I clearly go in thinking that the Sannin would win, should I just automatically vote for whoever is arguing for the Sannin? That isn't fair at all.


No, because you wouldn't.

If it's selected as a "great debate", then the bottom line is you probably won't have a solid opinion on who would win the debate. If you do, you have clear bias. 

Moreover, that matchup obviously allows more flux than this one as it's clear Itachi is well rounded enough to put up a decent fight agaisnt the Sanin and maybe win. However, comparing that debate to this one- which is a clear cut mismatch in both power and plain abilities, is illogical. 



> I get what you're saying, but it's a bit too idealistic. The individual judges almost all have their own opinions on which characters are the strongest, so if you want them to vote according to those opinions, then it's just a game of who the judges are. You could have a pool of Itachi fans who all think Itachi beats Nagato - even if you think your arguments are clearly better than your opponent's, they'd just be voting based on their own beliefs. That is, if we're to use your method of scoring at least. Because there's absolutely no way we could have a large enough sample size to accurately portray the unclear view of the public in total, it doesn't really matter that there's no general consensus.


Then the job of the community is to ensure those who are known to view Itachi as an everwinning beast shouldn't be allowed to judge a debate with Itachi in it. 

Let's be honest here- the 'fanboys' in this dome are known as such. You, and I, can identify them rather easily. 

By adding judges we can increase the sample size of opinions on the matchup post-debate, and by making them explain their decisions individually- the public can determine whether or not the winner is truly better and we can finally come to a consensus. 



> It'd be awesome if we had judges who were entirely unsure of who'd win a match, and then you'd have a good point: they'd just vote for whoever convinced them of the victor. That's a very rare case though, so really it's an unspoken rule amongst the judges that if you think it's extremely obvious as to who'd win, put aside those feelings and try to base your vote on who used what they had the best.


If the match were good enough then you would have those types of judges. Orochimaru vs. Deidara- my immediate thought is Deidara is trashed. Unless Deidara has full knowledge and the location is on an ocean where Orochimaru cannot hide- then he'd lose.

I'm almost always open to new suggestions in debates that I don't already have an opinion on. In most circumstances, a debate where the general net of active debaters are split on, I am also. 

Itachi vs. Sannins
Itachi vs. Minato
Naruto vs. Hashirama
SM Naruto vs. MS Sasuke
Orochimaru vs. Raikagenaut
Jubito vs. Hokages
Kabuto vs. Nagato

These are matchups that my opinion can go either way if a solid case is brought about with different stipulations. 



> If I'm judging an Itachi vs. Sannin match (I  strongly favor the Sannin, by the way) and the Itachi contestant gives me this really well cited argument that used everything in the contestant's repertiore, and the Sannin contestant created a half-assed essay that didn't really highlight the key points, who should I vote for? The Itachi advocate, who obviously used the info he had available to its highest degree, or the Sannin advocate, who made an awful argument that was really only believable because his side was (IMO) the easier side to argue for? It's pretty obvious that if this contest is about crowning the best debater, I'd have to vote for the Itachi advocate.


The idea of debating the topic is to bring about an ultimate strategy for both characters that would eventually lead us to a winner between the two characters. 

If you have an unwavering opinion on who wins, that is- the person cannot change your mind at all- then you don't judge the matchup- it's that simple. 

The matchups selected should be so great that the judges are willing to change sides on willingly and say "Wow, I didn't think he could beat him- but he can." 



> No. That's where you're wrong, I think. The purpose of these debates is to find out who the best debater is. That's why when we declare a winner, we state the member's name, not the character's. If we wanted a consensus, we wouldn't be having so few judges judging these matches, nor would we make them write out a full analysis. We'd just plop a poll in the thread and see what the general pop. thinks.


That's not true, the purpose is to come to a common consensus through a high score process about who is the true winner between the two matchups.

When I went into this my immediate thoughts were that we were going to tackle difficult debating topics that the dome has had trouble commonly deciding a winner on previously. Otherwise, it's not a "great debate". 

That's the ultimate goal. The community decides on a superior ninja through the presentation and judging of a controversial debate. This, consequently will rule out the fanboys and one-liner debate replies of "Bamflash" and "Tsukuyomi GG" that is so prevalent in the dome.

If we're debating for the sake of the art of debating- and using the characters as nothing more than tools- it's nothing more than a random judge deciding who wins through popular debating styles and shining a spotlight on a single debater. That's boring, pointless- and will do nothing to eradicate the broken debating system that rules the dome now. 

With that being said, in order to achieve this goal, changes need to be made to the judging system, the scoring system and the ultimate decision.


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## EnergySage (Aug 6, 2013)

But....Viz....it IS about the debators

Read the Discussion Thread on it. It's about reviving the quality of debates.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> What the fuck are you talking about?
> 
> The point of these debates are to find a clear consensus on matchups that have plagued debaters for awhile and to subsequently eliminate fanboyism throughout the dome. In other words, who wins out of the two characters.


I was the one wrote up the designed guidelines and everything else for Great Debate Redux, so to tell me that I don't understand the point of these debates makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. But heck even if we take this back to the original Great Debate I was heavily involved in the beginning of that process and participated in the first of the Great Debates, and the focus there was also on skill of the debater, while who would actually win the match took a very distance back seat to that. So even than what your saying does not make any sense and honestly this is starting to just seem trollish to me



> You can't leave the forest- it's the fucking battlefield.


.
But you can come in close enough where their is clear LOS



> Orochimaru walks into an open field in plain sight against a man he understands fights at long range with massive explosive offensive Ninjutsu?


He's done it before, so manga cannon disagrees with you.



> points out of 100 is 5% of a score that I nearly lost by a margin of 1%. It means a lot, how the fuck can you say otherwise?


You nearly lost, but you won, so 5 more points isn't changing the outcome, because you'd still win. 



> It won't work like that in every debate. Using this scoring system, you will fuck up and screw over a clear winner the next time around.


The problem is from my perspective you did not produce a post good enough nor did your opponent produce a post that was bad enough where you were the "clear winner", someone who is "clear winner" should blow his/her competition out of the water, this did not occur in this match up. Instead both you and sloth were very evenly matched by excelling in different areas, I just thought you excelled slightly more, but it's close enough that if someone gave it to sloth I would not loose sleep over it like some great injustice had been done, I'd say okay that judge had a different opinion than me, but not by much and accept his/her ruling. But the fact that even with such a close match two very different posters such as Alex and myself came to the same conclusion of your victory, gives me even more confidence in the system instead of less.

If I thought that someone did produce a post that should be seen as "clear winner" and they lost than I'd actually be worried and I'd take a look at the system and the judge much more closely, but that did not happen here, so we'll wait and see how it goes in later matches.



> IMO, you are ridiculous in suggesting you came to the same conclusion. With a 1% variation in AP's score this fucking debate would be a draw


I'm ridiculous because I stated a fact lol. Alex and I did indeed come to the same conclusion that you won. Your being ridiculous by talking about a scenario that didn't even happen and than saying i'm wrong for citing the scenario that in-fact did happen.



> But that's exactly what nearly happened here- the dude came a point from drawing with me. One point out of 100. Dude, I beat him by 1%. You should be fucking worried.


No it's not really what happened here, because you won. Your talking about a hypothetical and honestly it would not bother me if you lost by a few points ether, because people are going to have different opinions than me and unless I see insane bias or a total fuck up I will respect the opinion of someone who took their time to judge. Hell Alex may have read each post closer than I did and saw something I did not, since I was not even the judge of this match so I didn't put quite as much effort into my evaluation as I would if I were the judge. 

Simply put if you had lost by a large point margin, than I'd be worried. If you had lost by a small point margin I wouldn't be worried. But since you won, it's beyond not being it's actually starting to become  annoyance at this point with you not showing any respect to people who took time to evaluate you and sloth's post, or showing any respect for Sloth.



> The problem is prevalent- your scoring system warrants a 28-35% scoring difference on several categories between you and other judges. Your scoring system warrants a near win for Deidara over Current Orochimaru with full knowledge in a forest.


I care about the conclusion, not differing opinions on certain categories which is unavoidable. 



> Your scoring system warrants a near win for Deidara over Current Orochimaru with full knowledge in a forest.


Shows you still don't get the point of this competition.



> t's garbage. That level of variation between judging in any fucking competition is utter chaos. That's like watching a slam dunk competition, and one dude giving a 7 on a 360 behind the back dunk, when the other two judges give him a 10. The athlete would throw the fucking ball in his face. Here, take the ball Turrin, do something constructive with it.


No one is awarding you a 10/10 or the equivalent though. That's what your not getting and why so many people are not sympathizing with your complaints.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 7, 2013)

> I was the one wrote up the designed guidelines and everything else for Great Debate Redux, so to tell me that I don't understand the point of these debates makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. But heck even if we take this back to the original Great Debate I was heavily involved in the beginning of that process and participated in the first of the Great Debates, and the focus there was also on skill of the debater, while who would actually win the match took a very distance back seat to that. So even than what your saying does not make any sense and honestly this is starting to just seem trollish to me


Trollish? 

You specifically stated the point behind creating this system was to rule out trolls, and take on debates that the community deemed "interesting" or otherwise "undecided". With that being said, you're in agreement that by awarding someone a win who is debating for a character who loses by public opinion- you are ruling out trollish behavior and justly taking on difficult debates?

How does giving someone a win, who is debating for a clear loser rule out trolling? How does giving someone a win, who is debating for a clear loser do justice to the "interesting difficult matchups"? 



> He's done it before, so manga cannon disagrees with you.


Please, provide the page where Orochimaru was matched up with Deidara in the Forest of Death, and found an open area in said massive forest, screamed out Deidara's name and waited for him to appear to attack him.

When you do that, you can say canon agrees with you. 



> You nearly lost, but you won, so 5 more points isn't changing the outcome, because you'd still win.


Do you understand that I won by only one point? Does that in anyway register in your fucking brain?

5 points compared to 1 that I nearly lost by. 

HMM, that 5 looks pretty valuable in this close of a matchup. Does it change the outcome? No. Is it's value 5x the amount I nearly lost by? Yes.

So it matters. Admit you fucked up in scoring, that your scoring system is flawed, and that you need to fix. 



> The problem is from my perspective you did not produce a post good enough nor did your opponent produce a post that was bad enough where you were the "clear winner", someone who is "clear winner" should blow his/her competition out of the water, this did not occur in this match up. Instead both you and sloth were very evenly matched by excelling in different areas, I just thought you excelled slightly more, but it's close enough that if someone gave it to sloth I would not loose sleep over it like some great injustice had been done, I'd say okay that judge had a different opinion than me, but not by much and accept his/her ruling. But the fact that even with such a close match two very different posters such as Alex and myself came to the same conclusion of your victory, gives me even more confidence in the system instead of less.


It did occur, in no way shape or form did I not provide a solid, IC case, well formatted with plenty of links that would suggest Deidara has 0 chance of defeating Orochimaru.

A person already agreed with me on the this thread. He literally gave a paragraph of explanation. The only two who disagreed are you and Alex Payne, the ones I'm currently baffled with. 

You and Alex differed by a margin of 28-35% in two different categories. There is NO FUCKING consistency with your judging system. DO NOT feel confident, I deeply employ you to be worried. I happened to win in two different ways based on your and AP's judging- that is not a good thing. 

The fact that you suggested it would not be an injustice that Sloth, debating on the part of Deidara in this location against Orochimaru with full knowledge defeated me, the guy debating for Orochimaru in this location with full knowledge- is fucking mind boggling. Do you not understand how ridiculous it is to suggest that Deidara would win a 100 point strategic debate against Orochimaru in a stealth field location with the limited knowledge he possesses against Orochimaru? 



> If I thought that someone did produce a post that should be seen as "clear winner" and they lost than I'd actually be worried and I'd take a look at the system and the judge much more closely, but that did not happen here, so we'll wait and see how it goes in later matches.


In your view it didn't happen. In my view, and the view of another debater, it did happen.

Your arrogance in not addressing the fact that I firmly believe your scoring was garbage is a true testament to your character. 



> I'm ridiculous because I stated a fact lol. Alex and I did indeed come to the same conclusion that you won. Your being ridiculous by talking about a scenario that didn't even happen and than saying i'm wrong for citing the scenario that in-fact did happen.





> No it's not really what happened here, because you won. Your talking about a hypothetical and honestly it would not bother me if you lost by a few points ether, because people are going to have different opinions than me and unless I see insane bias or a total fuck up I will respect the opinion of someone who took their time to judge. Hell Alex may have read each post closer than I did and saw something I did not, since I was not even the judge of this match so I didn't put quite as much effort into my evaluation as I would if I were the judge.





> Simply put if you had lost by a large point margin, than I'd be worried. If you had lost by a small point margin I wouldn't be worried. But since you won, it's beyond not being it's actually starting to become  annoyance at this point with you not showing any respect to people who took time to evaluate you and sloth's post, or showing any respect for Sloth.


28-35% difference in judging in two different categories between you and Alex Payne. Deidara nearly tying Orochimaru in a battle located in a stealth forest field.

At what point are you going to address the ridiculous nature of this system? 



> I care about the conclusion, not differing opinions on certain categories which is unavoidable.


It is avoidable. That is your fucking problem. 

When the conclusion and scoring gets wider in differential- you'll wish you'd made changes to the flawed format beforehand. There is clear evidence suggesting scoring in two different categories between two active judges was between 28-35% in 25 point categories in this debate. That's a major problem Turrin- for any scoring system. 



> No one is awarding you a 10/10 or the equivalent though. That's what your not getting and why so many people are not sympathizing with your complaints.


EnergySage and another poster basically suggested I was whining because I was using distasteful language and disagreeing with the judge's score considerably.

Another poster came on and outright agreed with everything I presented.

At what point in this thread did you see "so many people" not sympathizing with my "complaints".

I called  you and Alex out, you replied up to this point with "Stop whining you won". Alex replied with "That's my opinion deal with it". EnergySage said "It's not about the characters".

You DO NOT have a vass majority behind your opinion disagreeing with me Turrin. You can address the problem, or let it tank even further. Continued trial matches are pointless from what I've seen in this thread and the Kabuto/Pein thread. Note that I suggest you add more judges, subtract the category point counts and better choose the matchups further down the road, as this one was terrible. 

This will be my final post toward you, I've provided my case long enough. If you want to let this tank without making changes, and you've already written several paragraphs replying to my post before reading this, please, don't bother posting it. I will not take it as anything but you remaining adamant to your views, and as such, I won't reply.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to this point, however frivolous it was.


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## Akitō (Aug 7, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> If it's selected as a "great debate", then the bottom line is you probably won't have a solid opinion on who would win the debate. If you do, you have clear bias.



Then you're being _way_ to idealistic. There might be a solid five members in this section who are truly wavering on any given match - one, _maybe_ two of them would even be active enough to judge, and then you'd have to make sure they're interested and give them a good schedule to work from. The point is, there really aren't many matches where a good amount of people are going to be torn, and certainly not enough to fill an entire bracket full of debate matches. 

We ran into this problem the first time someone ran a formal debate tournament because we simply couldn't find enough matches that were considered even enough that the judges didn't have a clear-cut opinion. You overestimate the number of matches that are available and you overestimate the amount of judges who don't have a solid opinion on nearly every match. 

I mean, if you're a judge, you'll be experienced enough in the BD to have debated basically every topic quite a few times. If you _don't_ have a clear view on almost all of them, then you must be really indecisive. To find judges who aren't set on a particular topic and to find enough of those topics that allow for the possibility of indecisiveness is pretty hard. There are a few cases (where the judges are unsure of who'd win) in this 'great debate redux', but they're definitely the minority. 



> Then the job of the community is to ensure those who are known to view Itachi as an everwinning beast shouldn't be allowed to judge a debate with Itachi in it.



You don't have to be a fanboy to have a clear view on a match. 



> By adding judges we can increase the sample size of opinions on the matchup post-debate, and by making them explain their decisions individually- the public can determine whether or not the winner is truly better and we can finally come to a consensus.



Yes, but who's going to find enough judges where the sample size would always be indicative of who'd win? Remember that the judges _all_ have to be unsure of who'd win the match to begin with. 



> If we're debating for the sake of the art of debating- and using the characters as nothing more than tools- it's nothing more than a random judge deciding who wins through popular debating styles and shining a spotlight on a single debater. That's boring, pointless- and will do nothing to eradicate the broken debating system that rules the dome now.



Um, what? The point of these debates is to find the best poster in the section. Not sure what you mean by 'random' judge: the judges are all supposed to be good posters themselves so that they're able to find quality when they see it in a post (i.e., the 'best' post in terms of quality). The underlying goal of the debates is to improve the quality of the section. If you have bad posters participating in the debate, they'll learn from the critiques of the judges and from reading better essays throughout the debate. If you have good posters participating, it'll force them to shine. I don't see how that's boring or pointless: it's a contest to crown the best poster in the section. Whoever wins should logically be the greatest strategist/writer.

P.S. Your main qualm seems to be this particular match (Deidara vs. Orochimaru). I agree that it's kind of a dumb match to put in a great debate because it's not fair.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2013)

This is the last thing I'll say about this. The winner of the match is not primarily about how X character stacks up to Y character, it's about how X debater stacks up to Y debater. That is the reason why we declare X debater or Y debater the winner, not the X character or Y character. If this was just about what character would win, than we'd just open up a thread and poll the BD, not require someone to write up a strategy.

The secondary point of this is to promote good discussion/debate between battledome members that does not devolve into trolling. By trolling I do not mean a person who has a different opinion than me, you, or the next guy about who would win in a fight, I mean someone who does not present real arguments for why that character win and falls back on shit like "Minatoi is Minato so he'll figure out some way to win",  continues to argue points that are clearly false within the confines of the match, or is completely unreceptive to well put together argument that could suggest something contrary to their points. The reason that these great debates prevent that type of trolling is because if someone utilizes one of those arguments they are simply going to loose the match.

That's the goal here and that is not changing. So if you think the goal should be different, your more than welcome to make your own thread. The things that may need adjustment are tweaks to what categories are worth, maybe one category should be worth more while another is worth less. After the trail is over I have no problem with people voicing opinions on something like that and I encourage it. What I don't encourage is whining about how the point should be on the character & not the debater when the creator of the concept is telling you it's about the debater. Or someone whining because they think they deserved a higher score, while at the same time having no comprehension of what the main focus (the debater's skill) is and therefore could not hope to understand the scoring system properly.

@DaVizWiz
You have one person in here saying that maybe the spread on the IC rating should be higher, but making it clear that it is just his opinion and not agreeing with you that the judging system is fucked up because of it. 

On the other hand you have Alex, Akito, EnergySage, & myself telling you that you are missing the point of "Great Debate Redux", that the main focus is on "debater skill" not "character strength". That's 4 vs 1, but number of people don't even matter because all that matters is my opinion, because I created the concept lol. So if i'm telling you your missing the point, than you are defacto missing the point. The fact that you think you continue to argue against the creator of the concept, what the concept is, is what makes me see this as becoming trollish.

Again if you don't like the concept you don't have to participate.


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## HappyHalloween (Aug 8, 2013)

Orochimaru would win.


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