# Who is the strongest character alien x (ben 10) can defeat in dragon Ball super



## ACE NITRO (Dec 29, 2016)

Bloodlusted : (aka it wants to destroy every character in dragon Ball super) 
Speed equalized 
Scenario 2 :
Speed unequal


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## xenos5 (Dec 29, 2016)

Emperorofliberty said:


> Zeno



Uh, no. As far as I can recall Alien X's best feat is resetting the universe. Zen'o is multiversal. And he's also very far into the MFTL range (GM calced Zen'o at 2 quintillion c  ) so he should speed blitz Alien X.


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## Empress Angeline (Dec 29, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Uh, no. As far as I can recall Alien X's best feat is resetting the universe. Zen'o is multiversal. And he's also very far into the MFTL range (GM calced Zen'o at 2 quintillion c  ) so he should speed blitz Alien X.


Alien x can destroy multiverse according to word of god


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## xenos5 (Dec 29, 2016)

Emperorofliberty said:


> Alien x can destroy multiverse according to word of god



Link to evidence of this?

And how big is the multiverse in the Ben 10 verse? Zen'o can erase a 12-universe multiverse and tank said erasure.


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## Empress Angeline (Dec 29, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Link to evidence of this?
> 
> And how big is the multiverse in the Ben 10 verse? Zen'o can erase a 12-universe multiverse and tank said erasure.




Ben ten has dozens of universes at least


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## xenos5 (Dec 29, 2016)

Emperorofliberty said:


> Ben ten has dozens of universes at least



Really? A joke on twitter being taken as word of god? That's incredibly weak. Especially if nothing in the series backs it up. 

I'd say death of the author more than applies in this case. If he wanted to make Alien X multiversal he should've had it happen in the source material.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Empress Angeline (Dec 29, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Really? A joke on twitter being taken as word of god? That's incredibly weak. Especially if nothing in the series backs it up.
> 
> I'd say death of the author more than applies in this case. If he wanted to make Alien X multiversal he should've had it happen in the source material.


That can be said against word of god being used in any series. Are you implying WOG is invalid in general?

If WOG isn't allowed supreme Zamasu


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## BlaLig (Dec 29, 2016)

@Emperorofliberty you mean this? 





			
				Ben 10 wiki said:
			
		

> According to Derrick J. Wyatt, Celestialsapiens can destroy a multiverse, but it will take a Celestialsapien that performs it six thoughts.


 but wiki can be unreliable you know...

EDIT: I got ninja'd! By you no less...


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## xenos5 (Dec 29, 2016)

Emperorofliberty said:


> That can be said against word of god being used in any series. Are you implying WOG is invalid in general?



I'm implying if Word of God is directly contradictory to what we see it shouldn't be used. iirc one of the writers for Avatar: The last airbender said something about Toph being stronger than the Hulk. She showcases nowhere near that level of strength anywhere in the series. It's ridiculous to place her at that level.



Emperorofliberty said:


> If WOG isn't allowed supreme Zamasu



What are you trying to say with this? I don't remember any statements being given for him that drastically boosted his power and a statement from Toriyama isn't required to establish his power in the first place as it was already established well enough in the series.


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## shade0180 (Dec 29, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Link to evidence of this?
> 
> And how big is the multiverse in the Ben 10 verse? Zen'o can erase a 12-universe multiverse and tank said erasure.



There are multiple Celestial Sapien out there alien x is basically just one of the generic alien of his race out there.... Literally everyone of them  are able to create and destroy their own universes with their very own pocket universes and Ben can literally affect them as they can affect Ben if they wanted to.

 basically you have a race of multiversal that can literally just sap each other whenever they want to if they agreed to do but wouldn't do it because of their multiple persona which exist for every celestial sapien who can't agree to do shit.


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## xenos5 (Dec 29, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> There are multiple Celestial Sapien out there alien x is basically just one of the generic out there.... everyone of them literally are able to *create and destroy their own universes* and Ben can literally affect them as they can affect ben if they wanted to.
> 
> basically you have a *race of multiversal* that can literally just sap them and other if they agreed to do it but because of their multiple persona they wouldn't do it.



???

Creating/Destroying one universe at a time=/=Multiversal.


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## shade0180 (Dec 29, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> ???
> 
> Creating/Destroying one universe at a time=/=Multiversal.



that's not what I said.


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## xenos5 (Dec 29, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> that's not what I said.



You said they were a race of multiversal. What else was I supposed to take that as, rather than you saying they all are multiverse level?


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## BreakFlame (Dec 29, 2016)

We've seen at least two universes in the episode where the absorber guy went after a baby Celestialsapien.

The Annihilaarg took out everything and Ben put it back.

So at least minimum-scale multiversal. Dunno about dozens of them, but no one other than Zen'o can take him.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 29, 2016)

So because Ben is multiversal with "multi-" meaning 2, he's superior to the DBS top tiers that can bust a verse that's 10 times the size?
2 > 10 doesn't make sense to me


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## trance (Dec 29, 2016)

How fast is Alien X?

DB god tiers are quadrillions-quintillions times _c _

Reactions: Like 2


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## Galo de Lion (Dec 29, 2016)

From what I've heard, the Ben 10 multiverse has countless/infinite timelines. I'll have to check on that though.


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## Montanz (Dec 29, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> So because Ben is multiversal with "multi-" meaning 2, he's superior to the DBS top tiers that can bust a verse that's 10 times the size?
> 2 > 10 doesn't make sense to me



pretty sure that's not how it works, multiversal feats>Universal+ feats regardless of the apparent size of the individual universe because space-time doesn't have a determined size to begin with.


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## BreakFlame (Dec 29, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> So because Ben is multiversal with "multi-" meaning 2, he's superior to the DBS top tiers that can bust a verse that's 10 times the size?
> 2 > 10 doesn't make sense to me



The main universe, which was the size of our own, was a dot floating in the ether from their perspective.

The other was a noticeable distance away, significantly greater than ten times the length of the universe.

The Annihilaarg reached across the void and hit that one too, along with potentially many others. Size isn't in DB's favor here.


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## Agent9149 (Dec 29, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> So because Ben is multiversal with "multi-" meaning 2, he's superior to the DBS top tiers that can bust a verse that's 10 times the size?
> 2 > 10 doesn't make sense to me



Universe+++++++++++ is stilll less than two universes and will always be.

And once you hit multiversal, things like energy output and whatnot become meaningless and comes down to hax.


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## xenos5 (Dec 29, 2016)

BreakFlame said:


> We've seen at least two universes in the episode where the absorber guy went after a baby Celestialsapien.
> 
> The Annihilaarg took out everything and Ben put it back.
> 
> So at least minimum-scale multiversal. Dunno about dozens of them, but no one other than Zen'o can take him.



Link to this episode or a clip showing the feat you're referring to?

Also. Is it specifically said the "Annihilaarg" destroyed a multiverse? If it's just said he took out "everything" that could just be the universe Ben's residing in.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 29, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Link to this episode or a clip showing the feat you're referring to?
> 
> Also. Is it specifically said the "Annihilaarg" destroyed a multiverse? If it's just said he took out "everything" that could just be the universe Ben's residing in.



 dailymotion.com/video/x3t4t5u_ben-10-omniverse-so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-smoothies_shortfilms
Happens at the end of the episode.
This confirms Alien X being multiversal


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## xenos5 (Dec 29, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> dailymotion.com/video/x3t4t5u_ben-10-omniverse-so-long-and-thanks-for-all-the-smoothies_shortfilms
> Happens at the end of the episode.
> This confirms Alien X being multiversal





This is your evidence? I looked through that video. Only one universe was referred to as being destroyed and restored in that episode. "Multiverse" or "two universes" is never said once.

That image doesn't help your case either . It doesn't say Alien X can destroy multiple universes at a time or a multiverse.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 29, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> This is your evidence? I looked through that video. Only one universe was referred to as being destroyed and restored in that episode. "Multiverse" or "two universes" is never said once.
> 
> That image doesn't help your case either. It doesn't say Alien X can destroy multiple universes at a time or a multiverse.


You asked for the video, I sent the link. Never said the video proves he's multiversal. If he was only able to destroy 1 universe at a time, they would have said so. It specifically says "universes", as in plural. It's the same with Zeno, we accepted him as multiversal from a statement alone saying he's able to destroy all 12 universes at once, instead of assuming he's only able to do so with multiple blasts. Why even mention universes in his profile, if he's not able to destroy and create more than one universe at a time??


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## xenos5 (Dec 29, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> You asked for the video, I sent the link. Never said the video proves he's multiversal. If he was only able to destroy 1 universe at a time, they would have said so. It specifically says "universes", as in plural. It's the same with Zeno, we accepted him as multiversal from a statement alone saying he's able to destroy all 12 universes at once, instead of assuming he's only able to do so with multiple blasts. Why even mention universes in his profile, if he's not able to destroy and create more than one universe at a time??



It's the context of the statement about Zen'o destroying 6 universes that puts him at multiversal (and him destroying the entire Future Trunks timeline/multiverse). 

The statement "Alien X can create and destroy entire universes" does not point to Alien X being multiversal as it has no such context and the word "entire" being used for universes further implies it's only one at a time.


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## Flashlight237 (Dec 29, 2016)

It's kinda screwy... I mean supposedly, SSJG Goku and Beerus had a universe-level clash; however, Akira Toriyama keeps beefing Beerus and Whis up throughout the series, making things more inconsistent. If there was consistency, I would believe that Golden Frieza should be enough to take Alien X, but because of the last of consistency, Alien X would likely make it up to Beerus or Whis.


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## xenos5 (Dec 29, 2016)

Flashlight237 said:


> It's kinda screwy... I mean supposedly, SSJG Goku and Beerus had a universe-level clash; however, Akira Toriyama keeps beefing Beerus and Whis up throughout the series, making things more inconsistent. If there was consistency, I would believe that Golden Frieza should be enough to take Alien X, but because of the last of consistency, Alien X would likely make it up to Beerus or Whis.



?

Beerus and Goku had a universe-level clash and both Goku and Beerus destroyed/nullified universe level combined ki attacks. That's fact. Beerus just had that level of power even without using his full power. Beerus being far above even current SSB KKx10 Goku just means he's much further into universe level+ than Goku is.


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## Flashlight237 (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> ?
> 
> Beerus and Goku had a universe-level clash and both Goku and Beerus destroyed/nullified universe level combined ki attacks. That's fact. Beerus just had that level of power even without using his full power. Beerus being far above even current SSB KKx10 Goku just means he's much further into universe level+ than Goku is.


I'm just saying, before, Beerus's power was, as stated by himself, to be 70% (unless I misread), and a picture showing a power scale of SSJG Goku as opposed to Beerus and Whis showed power ratings of 6 for Goku, 10 for Beerus, and 15 for Whis. After that, in Return of Frieza, Goku and Vegeta became well-adapted to their god ki and managed to achieve a new level of power called Super Saiyan Blue, which is reportedly the combination of the Super Saiyan form and their god ki. Despite this boost in strategy, mastery, and power, it was stated that Golden Frieza (who at first surpassed the then-new SSJB Goku, but not to a point where Goku couldn't buy time) was weaker than Beerus "no matter what."

Now do you see what I mean by "inconsistency?"


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Flashlight237 said:


> I'm just saying, before, Beerus's power was, as stated by himself, to be 70% (unless I misread), and a picture showing a power scale of SSJG Goku as opposed to Beerus and Whis showed power ratings of 6 for Goku, 10 for Beerus, and 15 for Whis. After that, in Return of Frieza, Goku and Vegeta became well-adapted to their god ki and managed to achieve a new level of power called Super Saiyan Blue, which is reportedly the combination of the Super Saiyan form and their god ki. Despite this boost in strategy, mastery, and power, it was stated that Golden Frieza (who at first surpassed the then-new SSJB Goku, but not to a point where Goku couldn't buy time) was weaker than Beerus "no matter what."
> 
> Now do you see what I mean by "inconsistency?"



70% was only stated in the BoG movie. Not in DBS which is the main canon now.


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## Flashlight237 (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> 70% was only stated in the BoG movie. Not in DBS which is the main canon now.


While, yeah, this is true, the first two sagas were repeats of BoG and RoF in spite of some differences between both repeat sagas and the movies themselves. Unless you've thoroughly seen both the movies and their respective DBS sagas (which I'll admit I didn't do), it kinda makes ya wonder what's going on.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> It's the context of the statement about Zen'o destroying 6 universes that puts him at multiversal (and him destroying the entire Future Trunks timeline/multiverse).
> 
> The statement "Alien X can create and destroy entire universes" does not point to Alien X being multiversal as it has no such context and the word "entire" being used for universes further implies it's only one at a time.



It's never said he destroyed 6 universes at once, only that he destroyed 6 after getting pissed of.  (Note, I'm not doubting him being multiversal, I'm saying we have treated him as multiversal for months despite the similar statements from Alien X) If Alien x's profile had said billions or infinite universes, would you still be saying he's only able to destroy 1 at a time?

Regarding the creator's Ask answer, in the Ben 10 verse, Celestialsapiens( Alien x's race) are considered limitless and omnipotent( I know NLF), 2nd to none and nothing, so them being able to destroy the omniverse doesn't seem like a stretch. Not sure why it would be a joke answer as well. Furthermore, " And then there were none" starting from the 17:00 mark, uses the time bomb to destroy infinite timelines/multiverses, yet Celestialsapiens are still considered the most powerful thing in the universe.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> It's never said he destroyed 6 universes at once, only that he destroyed 6 after getting pissed of.  (Note, I'm not doubting him being multiversal, I'm saying we have treated him as multiversal for months despite the similar statements from Alien X) If Alien x's profile had said billions or infinite universes, would you still be saying he's only able to destroy 1 at a time?





"Zen'o sama can erase anything from existance in an instant. Not just evildoers, but stars, galaxies, and even universes. If he so wished he could, he could erase all existence"

In that context it's obvious Whis means all at once as he goes up in scale to eventually "all of existence" which is basically the 12-universe, multiverse.

And also "Yes. There used to be 18 universes. If you get on Zen'o sama's nerves even a little bit... Boom. It's over."

The way Whis emphasized "Boom. It's over" is not what you'd say if Zen'o destroyed the 6 universes one by one. He had to have done it all at once.

The statement in the image you presented has nowhere near the same phrasing.



Ayy lmao said:


> Regarding the creator's Ask answer, in the Ben 10 verse, Celestialsapiens( Alien x's race) are considered limitless and omnipotent( I know NLF), 2nd to none and nothing, so them being able to destroy the omniverse doesn't seem like a stretch. Not sure why it would be a joke answer as well. Furthermore, " And then there were none" starting from the 17:00 mark, uses the time bomb to destroy infinite timelines/universes, yet Celestialsapiens are still considered the most powerful thing in the universe.



I looked through that episode and saw that bomb destroying what looked like an adult Ben 10 transforming into his version of alien X he called atomic x. So it killed him while he was a celestialsapien.

Unless you can show a celestialsapien Alien X can scale to destroying a multiverse or Alien X destroying a multiverse the creator's statement matches nothing we've actually seen and should be disregarded.


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## Flashlight237 (Dec 30, 2016)

A multiversal time bomb destroying a celestialsapien? Now that's what I call a nerf.


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## Gordo solos (Dec 30, 2016)

Flashlight237 said:


> While, yeah, this is true, the first two sagas were repeats of BoG and RoF in spite of some differences between both repeat sagas and the movies themselves. Unless you've thoroughly seen both the movies and their respective DBS sagas (which I'll admit I didn't do), it kinda makes ya wonder what's going on.


No, that's not how it works. The 70% line was only in the movies and never mentioned once in the saga; it was retconned. Any percentages Beerus mentioned in the saga were lies he made up (and he admitted this IIRC)

Goku and Vegeta's power were literally compared as a plant to an entire castle (Beerus' power) post-BOG saga by Whis

Reactions: Like 2


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## shade0180 (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> And also "Yes. There used to be 18 universes. If you get on Zen'o sama's nerves even a little bit... Boom. It's over."


So you're telling all those six universes Piss off Zeno all at the same time??


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> So you're telling all those six universes Piss off Zeno all at the same time??



There's no kill like overkill


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## shade0180 (Dec 30, 2016)

I'm just curious how it was done. did all the citizen in those 6 universes rally right in front of Zeno's backyard or some shit.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> I'm just curious how it was done. did all the citizen in those 6 universes rally right in front of Zeno's backyard or some shit.



considering the Gods of destruction are kinda the representatives for each universe i'd just assume 6 of them teamed up and tried to play a prank on Zen'o or something like that.


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## reiko96 (Dec 30, 2016)

Clockwork's time powers were shown to affect multiple timelines. Timelines in Ben 10 are treated as separate universes/realities. Paradox described it as a "tree" where reality constantly branches off into new universes with each decision that is made. Clockwork brought several of those universes back into existence after they'd been destroyed by Vilgax's chronosapian timebomb, which is timeline buster by feats

Celestiapians>Chronosapian. So yes, Alien X is multiversal

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> I looked through that episode and saw that bomb destroying what looked like an adult Ben 10 transforming into his version of alien X he called atomic x. So it killed him while he was a celestialsapien.
> 
> Unless you can show a celestialsapien Alien X can scale to destroying a multiverse or Alien X destroying a multiverse the creator's statement matches nothing we've actually seen and should be disregarded.


Wrong, atomic x is not a complete celesitalsapien. It's a combination between  alien x and atomix's  dna, it's not a full celestialsapien.
  the creator's statement only further proves he's multiversal,it should not be disregarded. Alien X is in verse stated to be the strongest, most powerful thing in Ben 10, even referred to as Omnipotent by various smart characters. Being "omnipotent"  would include being more powerful than the time bomb too. Professor Paradox, one of the smartest in the series, called celestialsapiens  ( start of episode) as well as saying anyone with their power would have unlimited power. He says this even though he knows exactly what the time bomb is capable of.   Paradox and Azmuth, the creator of the omnitrix, also says that obtaining celesitalsapien power will get aggregor the greatest power in the universe, which means greater power than the time bomb.


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## Toaa (Dec 30, 2016)

And what about the naljians or sth like that.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

The universe in Ben 10 consists of dozens of dimensions. The Universe also isn't always referring to just 1 single universe. Agregor tried to steal the power of celestialsepians in the forge of creation, which is multiple times called " the greatest power in the universe", despite the forge of creation being outside the main universe where it is refered to as such. Paradox congratulates them for saving "the universe" from Aggregor, yet they saved several universes.  

While the universe was being destroyed by the Anihilaarg, Ben said the universe "is everything I know and everything there is".  Bellicus and Serena correct him saying "was, technically", meaning the Anihilaarg didn't just destroy the universe, but at least also all of its dimension and the other universes in the timeline. Ben has already been to multiple universes, timelines and dimensions dozens of times, knows dozens of people inside the null void and other dimensions so why would he say "everything" and "all there is" if he only referred to 1 single universe and 0 dimensions? Bellicus and Serena are in Forge of Creation, outside of the universe, yet they still didn't deny the Anihilaarg destroying "everything there is". It destroyed Forge of creation as well as other universes and dimensions, making the Anihilaarg and X at least multiversal.



Toaa said:


> And what about the naljians or sth like that.


What about them?


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Wrong, atomic x is not a complete celesitalsapien. It's a combination between  alien x and atomix's  dna, it's not a full celestialsapien.
> the creator's statement only further proves he's multiversal,it should not be disregarded. Alien X is in verse stated to be the strongest, most powerful thing in Ben 10, even referred to as Omnipotent by various smart characters. Being "omnipotent"  would include being more powerful than the time bomb too. Professor Paradox, one of the smartest in the series, called celestialsapiens  ( start of episode) as well as saying anyone with their power would have unlimited power. He says this even though he knows exactly what the time bomb is capable of.   Paradox and Azmuth, the creator of the omnitrix, also says that obtaining celesitalsapien power will get aggregor the greatest power in the universe, which means greater power than the time bomb.



How does him being a hybrid mean he'd be less powerful than an average celestialsapien? I'd think he'd be more powerful if anything. Do you have proof he was weaker? If he wasn't weaker your entire argument falls apart. So you better have proof of this.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> The universe in Ben 10 consists of dozens of dimensions. The Universe also isn't always referring to just 1 single universe. Agregor tried to steal the power of celestialsepians in the forge of creation, which is multiple times called " the greatest power in the universe", despite the forge of creation being outside the main universe where it is refered to as such. Paradox congratulates them for saving "the universe" from Aggregor, yet they saved several universes.
> 
> While the universe was being destroyed by the Anihilaarg, Ben said the universe "is everything I know and everything there is".  Bellicus and Serena correct him saying "was, technically", meaning the Anihilaarg didn't just destroy the universe, but at least also all of its dimension and the other universes in the timeline. Ben has already been to multiple universes, timelines and dimensions dozens of times, knows dozens of people inside the null void and other dimensions so why would he say "everything" and "all there is" if he only referred to 1 single universe and 0 dimensions? Bellicus and Serena are in Forge of Creation, outside of the universe, yet they still didn't deny the Anihilaarg destroying "everything there is". It destroyed Forge of creation as well as other universes and dimensions, making the Anihilaarg and X at least multiversal.



You're really stretching here. They only refer to one universe being destroyed in that episode. They never once refer to multiple dimensions or multiple universes. You can reach for that hidden subtext all you want but without solid proof I have no reason to accept it.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 30, 2016)

Ben Universe is the same as ours and his verse has a plethora of them. Beside Alien X, Ben 10 Omniverse introduced timelines and alternate versions of Ben treated like How DC treats various earths as alternate Universes. 

Alien X can casually reset a Universe, one of his weaker aliens can contain the blast of a devices capable of creating the universe.
So far in DBS from what I gather they can destroy universes by power, and they have a person has limited time powers. Care to explain to me hows this is relevant to someone who can wave his hand and he just reset everything?


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Ben Universe is the same as ours and his verse has a plethora of them. Beside Alien X, Ben 10 Omniverse introduced timelines and alternate versions of Ben treated like How DC treats various earths as alternate Universes.
> 
> Alien X can casually reset a Universe, one of his weaker aliens can contain the blast of a devices capable of creating the universe.
> So far in DBS from what I gather they can destroy universes by power, and they have a person has limited time powers. Care to explain to me hows this is relevant to someone who can wave his hand and he just reset everything?



If Alien X isn't in the billions-quadrillions c he's getting blitzed and destroyed before he can do anything by most DBS top tiers/god tiers who are universe level+ and in that range of speed. Omni King/Zen'o is multiverse level (he can destroy 12 universes at once and tank the erasure of said universes) and in the low quintillions c so there's absolutely nothing Alien X can do to defeat him. Another thing is that Beerus could just destroy its soul with Hakai (as I don't recall Alien X having soul hax/destruction resistance).


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> How does him being a hybrid mean he'd be less powerful than an average celestialsapien? I'd think he'd be more powerful if anything. Do you have proof he was weaker? If he wasn't weaker your entire argument falls apart. So you better have proof of this.


Any proof of the hybrid being stronger than a regular celestialsapien? YOU are the one claiming the hybrid is stronger, the burden of proof is on You not me. No proof, then don't bring it up then.  Paradox says they are the most powerful species, Paradox knows of Atomic X, of the chromosapien and their time bomb yet STILL says the celestialsapiens are the most powerful alien. Azmuth knows of atomic X and chromosapien as well, also says celesitalsapiens are the most poweful.



xenos5 said:


> You're really stretching here. They only refer to one universe being destroyed in that episode. They never once refer to multiple dimensions or multiple universes. You can reach for that hidden subtext all you want but without solid proof I have no reason to accept it.


Nice downplaying. Okay, Zeno only destroyed Earth when he killed Zamasu, they only mentioned " the world" getting destroyed. Saying otherwise is reaching.  I can also play that game. They never said universe or multiverse to Zeno's destruction.

Watch the episode, and watch other epiosdes, universe in Ben 10 doesn't always refer to a single universe, and a single universe consists of hundreds of dimensions, whether you like it or not. There is no hidden subtext. Paradox, Ben and Asmuth all refer the multiverse as "the universe".

Ben specifically says the universe is everything, the nigh omniscient celestialsapiens don't correct him. They are from another universe for crying out loud, if everything wasn't the universe they would have corrected him. Ben has been to other universes, other dimensions, other timelines dozens of times. Why would "everything" only refer to 1 universe, when he is fully aware of others? Because it's not plural? Or because they don't say multiverse/omniverse? Look at the Zeno example from before.  Kevin thought the universe was everything until they flew to another universe, Kevin has been in the null void dozens of times, which is another dimension. He has even stayted there for years.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> If Alien X isn't in the billions-quadrillions c he's getting blitzed and destroyed before he can do anything by most DBS top tiers/god tiers who are universe level+ and in that range of speed.


Celestialsapiens exist out of sync of all of time, in the forge of creation so don't think speed is relevant to them.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Any proof of the hybrid being stronger than a regular celestialsapien? YOU are the one claiming the hybrid is stronger, the burden of proof is on You not me. No proof, then don't bring it up then.  Paradox says they are the most powerful species, Paradox knows of Atomic X, of the chromosapien and their time bomb yet STILL says the celestialsapiens are the most powerful alien. Azmuth knows of atomic X and chromosapien as well, also says celesitalsapiens are the most poweful.



No i'm not claiming it's stronger. I'm just saying there's no reason for it to be weaker. It'd at least have the same strength as any other celestialsapien. You're the one who initially claimed it was weaker. I looked up the biomatrix and from my understanding of it the version of Ben who uses it can choose to either fuse two aliens together or just go with one. He chose to go with a combination of Alien X and Atomix  and he would have no reason to do that if going with Alien X alone would be more powerful.  



Ayy lmao said:


> Nice downplaying. Okay, Zeno only destroyed Earth when he killed Zamasu, they only mentioned " the world" getting destroyed. Saying otherwise is reaching.  I can also play that game. They never said universe or multiverse to Zeno's destruction.



The fact that Zeno stayed drifting in a void of nothingness after destroying everything instead of going back to his palace and had no choice but to go with Goku and co. to the main timeline is proof enough the entire future trunks multiverse/timeline was destroyed. 

And if "universe" is in fact used to refer to one universe and multiverses then there's still no proof they never mean one universe when referring to a universe. At least in DBS they use "the world" to refer to the multiverse rather than confusing things by having universe mean universe and multiverse.



Ayy lmao said:


> Watch the episode, and watch other epiosdes, universe in Ben 10 doesn't always refer to a single universe, *and a single universe consists of hundreds of dimensions*, whether you like it or not. There is no hidden subtext.



Proof of this? 



Ayy lmao said:


> Ben specifically says the universe is everything, the nigh omniscient celestialsapiens don't correct him. They are from another universe for crying out loud, if everything wasn't the universe they would have corrected him. Ben has been to other universes, other dimensions, other timelines dozens of times. Why would "everything" only refer to 1 universe, when he is fully aware of others? Because it's not plural? Or because they don't say multiverse/omniverse? Look at the Zeno example from before.  Kevin thought the universe was everything until they flew to another universe, Kevin has been in the null void dozens of times, which is another dimension. He has even stayted there for years.



The universe is everything there is TO BEN. Because It's his home. That's what he was referring to. There was no reason for the celestialsapiens to correct him on that because they knew that's what he meant as well.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Celestialsapiens exist out of sync of all of time, in the forge of creation so don't think speed is relevant to them.



Proof of this? 

Pretty sure their reactions are limited by Ben as he has to argue with the multiple personalities inside of Alien X in order to get anything done.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> If Alien X isn't in the billions-quadrillions c he's getting blitzed and destroyed before he can do anything by most DBS top tiers/god tiers who are universe level+ and in that range of speed. Omni King/Zen'o is multiverse level (he can destroy 12 universes at once and tank the erasure of said universes) and in the low quintillions c so there's absolutely nothing Alien X can do to defeat him. Another thing is that Beerus could just destroy its soul with Hakai (as I don't recall Alien X having soul hax/destruction resistance).


Alien X much like clockwork and paradox isn't bound to time thus speed and he isn't erasing the universe he is resetting it and rebuilding it this includes the entire timeline. Much different. Doesn't see why he would have a soul and him standing around tank a device set to destroy the universe.

Listen I get the power in DBS but they don't have much Hax that can contend with reality warpers.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Proof of this?
> 
> Pretty sure their reactions are limited by Ben as he has to argue with the multiple personalities inside of Alien X in order to get anything done.




6:25

Talking is a free action in fiction


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> 6:25
> 
> *Talking is a free action in fiction*



Nah m8 we see time pass normally as Ben is talking to the personalities and to the outside observer Alien X is as still as a statue.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Alien X much like clockwork and paradox isn't bound to time thus speed and he isn't erasing the universe he is resetting it and rebuilding it this includes the entire timeline. Much different. Doesn't see why he would have a soul and him standing around tank a device set to destroy the universe.
> 
> Listen I get the power in DBS but they don't have much Hax that can contend with reality warpers.



Didn't Alien X just create a new universe since the universe had already been destroyed? 

Why would he not have a soul? Default assumption is a character has a soul until proven otherwise. 

Even if Alien X is as haxy as you say it is, it doesn't matter much if it gets blitzed before it can use that hax. Alien X may be able to tank the universe being destroyed but the top tiers in DBS are ridiculously far above baseline universal not only because the DB universe is 10x larger than our own but also because the characters who reached universe level have gotten a ton of powerups and boosts from training since they reached it. Alien X isn't tanking their attacks.


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## shade0180 (Dec 30, 2016)

Every adult CelestialSapien is a statue to anyone observing them, Because of their 2 personality always disagreeing with each other. Alien X isn't going to change that.




xenos5 said:


> Why would he not have a soul? Default assumption is a character has a soul until proven otherwise.



Every Celestial Sapien is an amalgamation of 2 persona within their own pocket universe.

 Soul is the last thing of their problem.


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## shade0180 (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Yup.



 did you miss what I was pointing out.?

their body at most is just an Avatar to represent their existence within the ben 10 universe.

Anyone one of them are basically living within their own pocket universe debating shit endlessly.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Didn't Alien X just create a new universe since the universe had already been destroyed?
> 
> Why would he not have a soul? Default assumption is a character has a soul until proven otherwise.
> 
> Even if Alien X is as haxy as you say it is, it doesn't matter much if it gets blitzed before it can use that hax. Alien X may be able to tank the universe being destroyed but the top tiers in DBS are ridiculously far above baseline universal not only because the DB universe is 10x larger than our own but also because the characters who reached universe level have gotten a ton of powerups and boosts from training since they reached it. Alien X isn't tanking their attacks.


No the universe was in the process, just went and review the event you're right he did recreated it, but he did make some changes with in the new universe.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> No the universe was in the process, just went and review the event you're right he did recreated it, but he did make some changes with in the new universe.



So he created a new slightly different universe? Alright. I don't think that'll help him here.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> did you miss what I was pointing out.?
> 
> their body at most is just an Avatar to represent their existence within the ben 10 universe.
> 
> Anyone one of them are basically living within their own pocket universe debating shit endlessly.



Are you saying destroying Alien X's body wouldn't kill the persona's? Well we have gotten to the point where SSB Goku can destroy a pocket dimension by powering up (and anyone on his level or above in DBS could pretty much do the same thing) so it's pretty much a moot point.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> No i'm not claiming it's stronger. I'm just saying there's no reason for it to be weaker. It'd at least have the same strength as any other celestialsapien. You're the one who initially claimed it was weaker. I looked up the biomatrix and from my understanding of it the version of Ben who uses it can choose to either fuse two aliens together or just go with one. He chose to go with a combination of Alien X and Atomix and he would have no reason to do that if going with Alien X alone would be more powerful.



I never mentioned Atomic X, you did. I said the chromosapien and the time bomb are weaker than Alien X. Gwen, her father and Manny Armstrong are hybrid aliens weaker than their alien parent/grandparent.  Diamond Matter is weaker than Diamond Head or whatever its name is.  Stinky Arms struggles to fly, and is much weaker than four arms. Heat jaws is unable to use its power properly, due to being a hybrid. Hybrid aliens aren't always more powerful, they are often noticeably weaker. Sometimes they are just as powerful or more powerful, but not by default.




xenos5 said:


> The fact that Zeno stayed drifting in a void of nothingness after destroying everything instead of going back to his palace and had no choice but to go with Goku and co. to the main timeline is proof enough the entire future trunks multiverse/timeline was destroyed.
> 
> And if "universe" is in fact used to refer to one universe and multiverses then there's still no proof they never mean one universe when referring to a universe. At least in DBS they use "the world" to refer to the multiverse rather than confusing things by having universe mean universe and multiverse.



Again, I have no doubt zeno is multiversal and destroyed the 12 universes, i'm just going by the logic of world, universe or whatever refering to what it's called. The Ben 10 writers are fucking stupid honestly, they refer the multiverse and universe by saying universe in the same episode from the same character. They even mix up dimensions and universes as the same in a sentence.

Paradox couldn't have talked about only 1 universe when he said they saved the universe, because they saved the celestialsapiens in the FOG, the other unseen universe and their own universe. Aggregor was going to mess with all of it, not just 1, + aggregor is fully capable of traveling to other universes with the power of celesitalsapien + Map of Infinity so clearly Paradox and Asmuth meant multiverse. Why would they think "omnipotent" Aggregor is only going to ruin the universe and not others when he's easily able to do so with no one to stop him?



xenos5 said:


> Proof of this?


 Based of the wiki, Diagon rules 99 dimensions. At some point I will skim through some episodes to find it.



xenos5 said:


> The universe is everything there is TO BEN. Because It's his home. That's what he was referring to. There was no reason for the celestialsapiens to correct him on that because they knew that's what he meant as well.


 It's clearly not, some of his friends live in the null void, Max also did at some point and might have at the time not too sure. the CSP corrected him by saying was instead of is, but not on how the universe isn't/wasn't everything?


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Nah m8 we see time pass normally as Ben is talking to the personalities and to the outside observer Alien X is as still as a statue.


Ben was arguing with the personalities while Gladiator was attacking him, and manages to convince the personalities to give him control faster than the gladiator who just flew from planet to planet in seconds, could reach him. Time passes slower for them.

 dailymotion.com/video/x254ihx_ingles-ben-10-omniverse-universe-vs-tennyson_shortfilms

18:20


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> I never mentioned Atomic X, you did. I said the chromosapien and the time bomb are weaker than Alien X. Gwen, her father and Manny Armstrong are hybrid aliens weaker than their alien parent/grandparent.  Diamond Matter is weaker than Diamond Head or whatever its name is.  Stinky Arms struggles to fly, and is much weaker than four arms. Heat jaws is unable to use its power properly, due to being a hybrid. Hybrid aliens aren't always more powerful, they are often noticeably weaker. Sometimes they are just as powerful or more powerful, but not by default.



So are you saying the version of Ben who used Atomic X is a dumbass who would purposefully use a weaker combination than a more powerful single alien? Isn't that version an older much more experienced Ben? We have no reason to assume Atomic X is weaker. He should be at least, equal. 



Ayy lmao said:


> Again, I have no doubt zeno is multiversal and destroyed the 12 universes, i'm just going by the logic of world, universe or whatever refering to what it's called. The Ben 10 writers are fucking stupid honestly, they refer the multiverse and universe by saying universe in the same episode from the same character. They even mix up dimensions and universes as the same in a sentence.



Ben 10 was really at its best with the original series rather than Alien Force, Ultimate Alien, Omniverse, or whatever spinoff they come up with next IMO. 



Ayy lmao said:


> Paradox couldn't have talked about only 1 universe when he said they saved the universe, because they saved the celestialsapiens in the FOG, the other unseen universe and their own universe. Aggregor was going to mess with all of it, not just 1, + aggregor is fully capable of traveling to other universes with the power of celesitalsapien + Map of Infinity so clearly Paradox and Asmuth meant multiverse. WWhy would think omnipotent Aggregor is only going to ruin the universe and not others when he's fully able to do so with no one to stop him?



I'm not asking about that scenario. I'm asking what proof do you have universe meant multiverse when referring to the anhilarg's destruction. 



Ayy lmao said:


> Based of the wiki, I will skip through some episodes to find it.



Ok. 



Ayy lmao said:


> It's clearly not, some of his friends live in the null void, Max also did at some point and might had at the time not too sure. the CSP corrected him by saying was instead of is, but not on how the universe isn't everything?



Ben's home would be everything to him. And regardless the Celestialsapiens not correcting him isn't proof. We don't accept Cell as solar system level even though no one corrected him when he made the claim he'd destroy the solar system. This is like the reverse of that.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Ben was arguing with the personalities while Gladiator was attacking him, and manages to convince the personalities to give him control faster than the gladiator who just flew from planet to planet in seconds, could reach him. Time passes slower for them.
> 
> dailymotion.com/video/x254ihx_ingles-ben-10-omniverse-universe-vs-tennyson_shortfilms
> 
> 18:20



Passing from planet to planet in seconds is... low FTL at best iirc. And it still took until right before Gladiator could reach Alien X for the argument to finish. Certainly time doesn't move slower to him to the point he wouldn't be blitzed by a character in the billions or quadrillions of c (billions or quadrillions times the speed of light).


----------



## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Passing from planet to planet in seconds is... low FTL at best iirc. And it still took until right before Gladiator could reach Alien X for the argument to finish. Certainly time doesn't move slower to him to the point he wouldn't be blitzed by a character in the billions or quadrillions of c (billions or quadrillions times the speed of light).


 Gladiator is a celestialsapian, should had said moments instead of seconds. If Celestialsapiens are able to move from their universe where time doesn't exist, then speed means nothing to them.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Gladiator is a celestialsapian, should had said moments instead of seconds. If Celestialsapiens are able to move from their universe where time doesn't exist, then speed means nothing to them.



If it meant nothing to them than they should've been able to stop the anihilarg from detonating instead of the argument taking too long and the universe being destroyed so they have to end up recreating it.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> So are you saying the version of Ben who used Atomic X is a dumbass who would purposefully use a weaker combination than a more powerful single alien? Isn't that version an older much more experienced Ben? We have no reason to assume Atomic X is weaker. He should be at least, equal.


He is a dumbass, firstly he didn't use Atomic X to stomp the shit out of the other Bens and Vilgax which he should have even if it isn't as strong as Alien X. He also focused too little on Vilgax. Ben 10000 had no idea that Vilgax just fired a multiversal buster, since he would have no knowledge of such a thing, he probably thought it was just a regular nuke he could tank/absorb. If he did know Vilgax had such a thing, he would be an even bigger dumbass for not using atomic X from the get go and kill him before he had the chance to use the time bomb. Instead, he chose to fight the other Bens. All evidence in the series points to Alien X's race being the supreme one.




xenos5 said:


> Ben 10 was really at its best with the original series rather than Alien Force, Ultimate Alien, Omniverse, or whatever spinoff they come up with next IMO.


I couldn't agree more, it only gets progressively worse with each new series.



xenos5 said:


> I'm not asking about that scenario. I'm asking what proof do you have universe meant multiverse when referring to the anhilarg's destruction.


Only that Ben said everything was destroyed, and wasn't corrected, though I will admit you could still interpret it as just a universe. However, each universe does have several dimensions inside it, at least the null void .



xenos5 said:


> Ben's home would be everything to him. And regardless the Celestialsapiens not correcting him isn't proof. We don't accept Cell as solar system level even though no one corrected him when he made the claim he'd destroy the solar system. This is like the reverse of that.


If cell actually did fire his kamehameha in space, but far away to another solar system and then  said " I just destroyed a solar system", with no one correcting him I wouldn't doubt it being true. The annihilaarg had already destroyed everything, cell's statement is just hyperbole/ him boasting, the personalities like being smartasses and don't see why they wouldn't correct him on it.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> If it meant nothing to them than they should've been able to stop the anihilarg from detonating instead of the argument taking too long and the universe being destroyed so they have to end up recreating it.


as soon as Ben ask them to help him, they say it's too late to do anything, so It seems like he was transported to them after everything was destroyed. Ben transform to alien x 16 seconds before it detonates, and 30 seconds before the anniliaargh destroyed Earth, yet Ben only talks for a short time before it's too late to do anything. Even if we assume they're  just FTL, they should still have had plenty of time to do something before it detonated. 16 seconds is an eternity for FTL characters, but they only said a few sentences. Unless Ben talked to them after everything was destroyed or plot.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 30, 2016)

WoG said X is omniversal, you can try to dismiss his words saying he is joking. Doesnt make it less true.

Also future Ben use Atomix because unlike X, he doesnt have personalities.

The Ben 10 writer that died, confirmed Alien X as omnipotent in his forum Q&A.

Though X is not, supreme. When someone called X a god, Paradox said (I think it was Paradox) "not even close"

And at the end of the series Azmuth or Paradox, said Ben was destined to become something along the lines of "the legendary, ultimate, supreme" before being cut by Paradox by saying to not ruin the surprise.

With the show cancelled, we will never know what Ben was destined to become or why X is "not even close to a god"

Also I remember WoG saying X is not the strongest Alien of the Omnitrix but he is "the most dangerous"


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> He is a dumbass, firstly he didn't use Atomic X to stomp the shit out of the other Bens and Vilgax which he should have even if it isn't as strong as Alien X. Also he had no idea that Vilgax just fired a multiversal buster, since he would have no knowledge of such a thing, he probably though it was just a regular nuke he could tank/absorb. If he did know Vilgax had such a thing, he would be an even bigger dumbass for not using atomic X from the get go and kill him before he had the chance to use the time bomb. Instead, he chose to fight the other Bens.



Probably didn't use atomic x to defeat the other bens as that'd be overkill and they'd probably be killed. Plus the other bens likely have their own version of alien x they could use and the battle would get out of hand if they all started transforming into them. I still think Atomic X should at least be equal to the other celestialsapiens.



Ayy lmao said:


> All evidence in the series points to Alien X's race being the supreme one.



Them being the supreme race does not make them multiversal or mean the time bomb would not be able to destroy them.




Ayy lmao said:


> I couldn't agree more, it only gets progressively worse with each new series.



Yeah. Original Ben 10 just knew how to have the right amount of comedy, action, and seriousness in a way the other iterations don't. Alien Force started out way too dark and self-serious, and Omniverse's tone is just all over the place from what i've seen of it.




Ayy lmao said:


> Only that Ben said everything was destroyed, and wasn't corrected, though I will admit you could still interpret it as just a universe. However, each universe does have several dimensions inside it, at least the null void.



How do you know the size of these other dimensions? And considering Dragonball has separate realms inside the same universe like other world, and Beerus's realm in universe 7 wouldn't it even out even if they were full sized dimensions?


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> WoG said X is omniversal, you can try to dismiss his words saying he is joking. Doesnt make it less true.



WoG statements are not infallible. There still has to be enough evidence in verse to support them. Or do you also agree with the bullshit statement that Toph is stronger than Hulk made by one of the creators of avatar the last airbender?


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> as soon as Ben ask them to help him, they say it's too late to do anything, so It seems like he was transported to them after everything was destroyed. Ben transform to alien x 16 seconds before it detonates, and 30 seconds before the anniliaargh destroyed Earth, yet Ben only talks for a short time before it's too late to do anything. Even if we assume they're  just FTL, they should still have had plenty of time to do something before it detonated. 16 seconds is an eternity for FTL characters, but they only said a few sentences. Unless Ben talked to them after everything was destroyed or *plot.*



The bold probably. 

But yeah, everything i'm seeing doesn't really point to Alien X having infinite speed or anything. It seems to me it's just low FTL.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> WoG statements are not infallible. There still has to be enough evidence in verse to support them. Or do you also agree with the bullshit statement that Toph is stronger than Hulk made by one of the creators of avatar the last airbender?



WoG can only be dismissed by contradiction, not by lack of show.

Toph is not > Hulk, because her strenght has been put to the test at maximum and she didnt lived up to the claim.

Alien X omniversal claim has never been contradicted, it is just never shown.

So WoG stands, one thing is fallible characters saying it, perhaps even an authority, or WoG amiguous answers like "Well..... I suppose so" or "It should be obvious"

But when it comed to unamiguous clearly stated WoG, then it stands unless the claim is falsified.

Lack of evidence is not enough to disregard WoG because IT IS evidence, you need negative evidence to do so.

WoG is only second to feats in the proof standard, and the reason for that is thar WoG can be made invalid at any moment, while feats cant.

Also WoG can suffer ambiguity problems, for example if Kishi says Kaguya can destroy the universe, we will enter into debates about how long it will take her, how much will it cost her, if she needs special circumstances to do so, etc.

With X however we know in no uncertain terms he is omniversal and that it takes him exactly 6 thoughts to be so.

So in short, no, you cant dismiss it and say "it doesnt count"


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Probably didn't use atomic x to defeat the other bens as that'd be overkill and they'd probably be killed. Plus the other bens likely have their own version of alien x they could use and the battle would get out of hand if they all started transforming into them. I still think Atomic X should at least be equal to the other celestialsapiens.



You didn't answer the part of him not knowing about the bomb, nor going after Ben instead of Vilgax and Eon. Alien X is mostly useless, since Ben can't control it most of time. He will be sitting like a statue for a long time before doing anything. Alien X's profile also says Ben wont use it because its power is too great, unless he absolutely has to. Adult ben didn't know what degree of danger they were in, which could explain why he used Atomic instead of alien x..




xenos5 said:


> Them being the supreme race does not make them multiversal or mean the time bomb would not be able to destroy them.


If chromosapiens are able to create the time bombs, then Alien X being superior would mean he could do the same DC output. They are constantly called the most powerful alien race, by even Paradox who first hand witnessed chromosapien ben recreate the multiverse. He calls their power the greatest in the universe, so it has to be better than the time bomb.




xenos5 said:


> Yeah. Original Ben 10 just knew how to have the right amount of comedy, action, and seriousness in a way the other iterations don't. Alien Force started out way too dark and self-serious, and Omniverse's tone is just all over the place from what i've seen of it.




The biggest problem is Ben becoming too powerful, and him being able to stay alien for as long as he likes. It makes everyone else useless. Omniverse is weird and dumb and it doesn't help the amination is awful as well.



xenos5 said:


> How do you know the size of these other dimensions? And considering Dragonball has separate realms inside the same universe like other world, and Beerus's realm in universe 7 wouldn't it even out even if they were full sized dimensions?


Will look into the size of the null void. I have no clue as for now.



xenos5 said:


> But yeah, everything i'm seeing doesn't really point to Alien X having infinite speed or anything. It seems to me it's just low FTL.



Paradox was in a hurry to move away from the celestialsapiens, the same guy who is able to stop time, move outside of time etc. Time has no meaning to paradox, yet he still feared the celestialsapiens. Their race exists outside of time, any instance of them being " too slow" is just plot. The same with Ben's other fast alien's being too slow to dodge something he should be easily able to.

Or an  even better example, which is Bulma, Kid Trunks, Videl and other weak characters being able to see and talk to SSG Goku, Beerus, Hit, SSG Vegeta and other quadrillion X FTL while they're fighting just fine.


----------



## Toaa (Dec 30, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> WoG said X is omniversal, you can try to dismiss his words saying he is joking. Doesnt make it less true.
> 
> Also future Ben use Atomix because unlike X, he doesnt have personalities.
> 
> ...


Can you ellaborate on that for?Off topic to the discussion but the author died and the show went downhill?


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Can you ellaborate on that for?Off topic to the discussion but the author died and the show went downhill?


----------



## Orochibuto (Dec 30, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Can you ellaborate on that for?Off topic to the discussion but the author died and the show went downhill?



I dont know if it had to do with the show going downhill, but yeah one of Ben 10 main writers died in 2011.

He had a forum with Q&A and in one of them called X omnipotent.

Do note it is a different author than the one who said X could destroy the omniverse.

So indeed, it is a consensus among Ben 10 writers that X is that powerful.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> You didn't answer the part of him not knowing about the bomb, nor going after Ben instead of Vilgax and Eon. Alien X is mostly useless, since Ben can't control it most of time. He will be sitting like a statue for a long time before doing anything. Alien X's profile also says Ben wont use it because its power is too great, unless he absolutely has to. *Adult ben didn't know what degree of danger they were in, which could explain why he used Atomic instead of alien x..*



The fact that he used the most powerful alien in Ben's arsenal (Alien X) as part of the combination rather than just using Atomix must've meant he had some idea of the power of the bomb when he saw the explosion coming towards him and just thought Atomic X would be better equipped to handle it than Alien X. 



Ayy lmao said:


> If chromosapiens are able to create the time bombs, then Alien X being superior would mean he could do the same DC output. They are constantly called the most powerful alien race, by even Paradox who first hand witnessed chromosome ben recreate the multiverse. He calls their power the greatest in the universe, so it have to be better than the time bomb.



We don't know how long it took to create the time bomb or how how much power is stored in it. It could have the power of many chromosapiens. And thinking about it... maybe the time bomb just erases timelines and those from certain timelines through hax rather than power? 




Ayy lmao said:


> The biggest problem is Ben becoming too powerful, and him being able to stay alien for as long as he likes. It makes everyone else useless. Omniverse is weird and dumb and it doesn't help the amination is awful as well.



The villains were overall more interesting back in the original ben 10 as well. 



Ayy lmao said:


> Will look into the size of the null void. I have no clue as for now.



Alright. 



Ayy lmao said:


> Paradox was in a hurry to move away from the celestialsapiens, the same guy who is able to stop time, move outside of time etc. Time has no meaning to paradox, yet he still feared the celestialsapiens. Their race exists outside of time, any instance of them being " too slow" is just plot. The same with Ben's other fast alien's being too slow to dodge something he should be easily able to.



The gladiator shouldn't have needed to go back and charge forward against Alien X if he had infinite speed. He clearly realized the close up barrage of punches wasn't working and that he needed to build up momentum/speed for a more powerful blow.


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## Toaa (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> You didn't answer the part of him not knowing about the bomb, nor going after Ben instead of Vilgax and Eon. Alien X is mostly useless, since Ben can't control it most of time. He will be sitting like a statue for a long time before doing anything. Alien X's profile also says Ben wont use it because its power is too great, unless he absolutely has to. Adult ben didn't know what degree of danger they were in, which could explain why he used Atomic instead of alien x..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If they exosted outside time aggregor wouldnt manage to steal one or even enter the forge of creation.

Also something i just thought how can alien x have dna for the omnitrix to copy.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> *WoG can only be dismissed by contradiction, not by lack of show.*
> 
> Toph is not > Hulk, because her strenght has been put to the test at maximum and she didnt lived up to the claim.
> 
> ...



Bullshit. If the series does not have a clear feat that supports a WOG statement the source material and the power shown within it holds precedence.


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## Toaa (Dec 30, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> I dont know if it had to do with the show going downhill, but yeah one of Ben 10 main writers died in 2011.
> 
> He had a forum with Q&A and in one of them called X omnipotent.
> 
> ...


And what about the 6 thoughts part?Also there should be an alien that ben would eventually take that would surpass alien x and how do the naljians whose kids have toys much more advanced than the omnitricks compare.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Bullshit. If the series does not have a clear feat that supports a WOG statement the source material and the power shown within it holds precedence.



The author is the authority of the work.

You cant just dismiss his word unless proven false.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 30, 2016)

Toaa said:


> And what about the 6 thoughts part?Also there should be an alien that ben would eventually take that would surpass alien x and how do the naljians whose kids have toys much more advanced than the omnitricks compare.



Ah, then you can indeed dismiss the omnipotent claim, because it is indeed, contradicted and thus falsified.

But the omniverse thing has not been proven false at all, it just hasnt been shown.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> The author is the authority of the work.
> 
> You cant just dismiss his word unless proven false.



I mentioned it in this thread earlier but look at this 

If the author wanted Alien X being multiversal to be canon they should've put it in the source material. Statements after the fact do not speak for the intentions of the author when they were making the work. The best thing Alien X has shown is recreating one universe. That is the canon height of its power.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> The fact that he used the most powerful alien in Ben's arsenal (Alien X) as part of the combination rather than just using Atomix must've meant he had some idea of the power of the bomb when he saw the explosion coming towards him and just thought Atomic X would be better equipped to handle it than Alien X.



Had he used Alien X, it would most likely have taken him too long to do anything, which doesn't seem to be the case with atomic x. But all of this is speculation, really, "why didn't Ben use Alien X" can be asked in pretty much every episode where he uses a weak ass alien instead. Ben learned to control Alien X in an episode, yet doesn't always use it in later episodes, so clearly it could be plot as well. We will never know for sure if atomic x is more powerful, or heck even if adult Ben still has it in his omnitrix( Ben's omnitrix changes aliens as often as he changes his shirt), thus you can't say Alien X wouldn't survive the bomb just because Atomic didn't.  Regardless, Paradox and Azmuth( the creator of the omnitrix) have numerous times stated celesitalsapiens as being the most powerful, despite them knowing about atomic x.

Furthermore, after Bericus agrees to restore the universe, he also implies he isn't gonna do it again, which could also be a reason for ben 10000 not using him.



xenos5 said:


> We don't know how long it took to create the time bomb or how how much power is stored in it. It could have the power of many chromosapiens. And thinking about it... maybe the time bomb just erases timelines and those from certain timelines through hax rather than power?



We know it's multiversal, furthermore a single chromosapien is enough to reverse the damage done of the time bomb so most likely a single chromosapien can create a time bomb. Destroying timeline can never be done by power, only hax so it is hax indeed. Multiversal destruction nonetheless.




xenos5 said:


> The villains were overall more interesting back in the original ben 10 as well.


Exactly, such a shame what they did.



xenos5 said:


> The gladiator shouldn't have needed to go back and charge forward against Alien X if he had infinite speed. He clearly realized the close up barrage of punches wasn't working and that he needed to build up momentum/speed for a more powerful blow.



Physic doesn't work properly when characters are moving lightspeed or FTL, neither does laws of momentum. Also he didn't have to have infinite speed at the time, Ben was a statue. Gladiator was surprised when he saw ben move. Momentum still working makes as much as Flash, Ger, Goku Hit etc moving outside of time/ while time is stopped or being trancespeed. Or it's just a trope.



Toaa said:


> If they exosted outside time aggregor wouldnt manage to steal one or even enter the forge of creation.
> 
> Also something i just thought how can alien x have dna for the omnitrix to copy.



He's able to move outside of time with the map of infinity. Watch the episode I linked, Paradox clearly states forges of creation is outside of time and impossible to reach without the map of infinity or if you are him/ a celestialsapien. What do you think the whole point of them stopping aggregor from getting The map of infinity was, if you were able to travel to the forge of creation without it? Why do you think Paradox when to such hassle to prevent anyone from using it?If not for the whole out of sync from time, they would have teleported there easily.

How do you know Alien X doesn't have DNA, or how the omnitrix works? The omnitrix has DNA of ghostfreak, who is ALWAYS intangible.


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## Toaa (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Had he used Alien X, it would most likely have taken him too long to do anything, which doesn't seem to be the case with atomic x. But all of this is speculation, really, "why didn't Ben use Alien X" can be asked in pretty much every episode where he uses a weak ass alien instead. Ben learned to control Alien X in an episode, yet doesn't always use it in later episodes, so clearly it could be plot as well. We will never know for sure if atomic x is more powerful, or heck even if adult Ben still has it in his omnitrix( Ben's omnitrix changes aliens as often as he changes his shirt), thus you can't say Alien X wouldn't survive the bomb just because Atomic didn't.  Regardless, Paradox and Azmuth( the creator of the omnitrix) have numerous times stated celesitalsapiens as being the most powerful, despite them knowing about atomic x.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He can be hurt by light so no he isnt.Also it doesnt have to be outside of time to be inaccesable only ina diffrent time zone.Dont quite have timw to qatch the entire episode so sorry for that


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

Toaa said:


> He can be hurt by light so no he isnt.Also it doesnt have to be outside of time to be inaccesable only ina diffrent time zone.Dont quite have timw to qatch the entire episode so sorry for that


So being able to fly through walls, bodies and everything else than light doesn't make him intangible? Guess the ghost from Dr Slump beerus destroyed isn't intangible either, since Beerus hakaid it. Or giyagas zamasu, since Zeno destroyed him.

For the last time, Paradox, the overseer of time, says their nebula exists out of time, NOT a time zone or anything else. going to other timezones and universes is something done by Ben and numerous other characters dozens of time, yet forge of creation is inaccessible to almost any.


watch from 6:00


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Had he used Alien X, it would most likely have taken him too long to do anything, which doesn't seem to be the case with atomic x. But all of this is speculation, really, "why didn't Ben use Alien X" can be asked in pretty much every episode where he uses a weak ass alien instead. Ben learned to control Alien X in an episode, yet doesn't always use it in later episodes, so clearly it could be plot as well. We will never know for sure if atomic x is more powerful, or heck even if adult Ben still has it in his omnitrix( Ben's omnitrix changes aliens as often as he changes his shirt), thus you can't say Alien X wouldn't survive the bomb just because Atomic didn't.  Regardless, Paradox and Azmuth( the creator of the omnitrix) have numerous times stated celesitalsapiens as being the most powerful, despite them knowing about atomic x.
> 
> We know it's multiversal, furthermore a single chromosapien is enough to reverse the damage done of the time bomb so most likely a single chromosapien can create a time bomb. Destroying timeline can never be done by power, only hax so it is hax indeed. Multiversal destruction nonetheless.



How long did it take for the chromosapien to reverse the damage? And for that matter how long did it take for the time bomb to erase all other timelines? The timeframe could definitely affect the level of power it'd take. And if it's hax why would it scale to the celestialsapiens?



Ayy lmao said:


> *Physic doesn't work properly when characters are moving lightspeed or FTL, neither does laws of momentum.* Also he didn't have to had used infinite speed, Ben was a statue..



Do you think the writers knew or cared about that? What they portrayed was Gladiator building up speed for a more powerful blow. That doesn't match your claim of celestialsapiens having infinite speed. No wind up would be required if they did have infinite speed. For such a bold claim the most solid evidence as possible is required. And I'm just not seeing it here.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> How long did it take for the chromosapien to reverse the damage? And for that matter how long did it take for the time bomb to erase all other timelines? The timeframe could definitely affect the level of power it'd take. And if it's hax why would it scale to the celestialsapiens?


It took less than 30 seconds ( at 16:00) to  the destruction and minutes to  ( starting from 17:32) infinite timelines and it was done by a single "blast".
It would scale because Celestialsapiens still have more power than the time bomb, surely an alien race capable of destroying the omniverse minus 1 universe should be considered the more powerful than a universal alien. Destroying spacetime is only possible with hax, whether it's town area or universal area, dc alone can't destroy spacetime. If paradox and asmuth say celesitalsapien's power are>>>> everything else, then that also includes chromosapiens and their time bombs. Their power is specifically described as being the most powerful in the universe. And we have an author statement saying they can destroy the omniverse if they choose to.



xenos5 said:


> Do you think the writers knew or cared about that? What they portrayed was Gladiator building up speed for a more powerful blow. That doesn't match your claim of celestialsapiens having infinite speed. No wind up would be required if they did have infinite speed. For such a bold claim the most solid evidence as possible is required. And I'm just not seeing it here



The logic about them not caring or knowing applies to them portraying gladiator building up speed as well. The authors simply don't care whether it makes sense or not, because it's a trope. Nonetheless, in various fiction you can still build up speed after moving infinitely fast, the same way you can be stronger than someone with infinite strength and DC. Or something being too durable to destroy, or lift despite a character having infinite DC/ strength.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> It took less than 30 seconds ( at 16:00) to  the destruction and minutes to  ( starting from 17:32) infinite timelines and it was done by a single "blast".
> It would scale because Celestialsapiens still have more power than the time bomb, surely an alien race capable of destroying the omniverse minus 1 universe should be considered the more powerful than a universal alien. Destroying spacetime is only possible with hax, whether it's town area or universal area, dc alone can't destroy spacetime. If paradox and asmuth say celesitalsapien's power are>>>> everything else, then that also includes chromosapiens and their time bombs. Their power is specifically described as being the most powerful in the universe. And we have an author statement saying they can destroy the omniverse if they choose to.



If it's hax it wouldn't matter if the celestialsapiens have more power than the chromosapiens. Having more power=/= having more powerful hax.



Ayy lmao said:


> The logic about them not caring or knowing applies to them portraying gladiator building up speed as well. The authors simply don't care whether it makes sense or not, because it's a trope. Nonetheless, in various fiction you can still build up speed after moving infinitely fast, the same way you can be stronger than someone with infinite strength and DC. Or something being too durable to destroy, or lift despite a character having infinite DC/ strength.



If the only thing putting the celestialsapiens as having infinite speed is their realm "being outside of time" and everything else doesn't match them having infinite speed or goes against it than why should we not go with the more plentiful evidence rather than the one piece of evidence?


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> If it's hax it wouldn't matter if the celestialsapiens have more power than the chromosapiens. Having more power=/= having more powerful hax.


Celestialsapiens power is hax, creating universes, bfr'ing people, destroying universes and spacetime etc...
It's mostly hax, not raw strength. Regardless hax is power. GER and MIH are the stands with most power in their verse, despite their power being hax alone. The Anihilaarg like the timebomb, is also just hax, yet it is considered one of the most powerful weapons in the universe. The timebomb and Anihilaarg have no DC, they just erase universes from existence. If hax=/ power then a regular bomb would be more powerful than both the Anilaarg and the timebomb.

Trunks and Zamasu are able to destroy a universe and its spacetime( hax+dc), simply because they are more powerful than weaker characters that are able to do that , right? We don't consider Trunks, Vados or Zamasu as merely multi galaxy +, despite spacetime destruction being purely hax with 0 "power" behind it. Fully fed Galactus without the UN is also considered multiversal, from power scaling alone from abstracts at around his level.

It's the same deal with chromosapiens and celestialsapiens, no reason to believe weaker aliens can do more than the most powerful "omnipotent" aliens.



xenos5 said:


> If the only thing putting the celestialsapiens as having infinite speed is their realm "being outside of time" and everything else doesn't match them having infinite speed or goes against it than why should we not go with the more plentiful evidence rather than the one piece of evidence?



What plentiful evidence? A trope low showing of Gladiator using momentum to clash with Ben? Which could simply have been because he chose not to use infinite speed, since Ben was a statue at the time and he had no reason to? Or the author ignoring/ not knowing about the laws of physics like authors usualy don't? If momentum is the argument against infinite speed, then no characters in DBZ are FTL. There are plentiful of evidence against it, such as sound, gravity, light etc working as if they weren't fighting at FTL speed as well as dozens of other reasons. FTL speed goes against  relativistic momentum, it doesn't work at FTL speed unless God tiers have negative weight.
If authors can ignore E=Mc^2, then they can also ignore plenty of others laws. Momentum with Infinite speed is no more against the law of physic as lightspeed object  having mass.

It is really pointless to use physics to prove a character isn't infinitely fast, while at the same time acknowledging other characters moving FTL. Or acknowledge characters being able to destroy a universe/ multiverse, they both make equally little sense regarding the law of physics. Using momentum while infinitely fast isn't any more impossible than talking and not destroying the universe while moving FTL. Or nullifying energy.  The timebomb destroyed infinite universes, which somehow took minutes, and clockwork created infinite universes in 16 seconds, yet building up speed to become even more "infinitely fast" is impossible? Are you saying all characters in fiction with infinite speed are equally fast, and always take infinite little time to reach such speed?

And again, Gladiator could've simply not used infinite speed while Ben wasn't fighting back, since it  wasn't necessary.

Professor Paradox exists outside of time as well, and he's the one who said they do. Paradox has a total understanding of spacetime continuum.  Their realm being outside of time is the reason no one is able to go to the forge of creation, since no one can go outside of time except for Paradox and other celestialsapiens, unless they have the map of infinity. If Celestialsapiens weren't infinitely fast, they would be unable to leave their nebula, yet that's clearly not the case.


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## Edward Nygma (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> The best thing Alien X has shown is recreating one universe. That is the canon height of its power.


No, it isn't. The words of an author manifest canon the same way the words of a god would manifest reality. 

Anything out of an author's mouth is canon, unless he/she says otherwise. The only time we take the original canon over WoG is if they directly contradict one another. Nothing in the show ever directly implied that Alien X was incapable of destroying a multiverese, it just failed to provide the evidence needed to claim that he could - and absence of proof is not enough to over-ride WoG.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Sloth said:


> No, it isn't. The words of an author manifest canon the same way the words of a god would manifest reality.
> 
> Anything out of an author's mouth is canon, unless he/she says otherwise. The only time we take the original canon over WoG is if they directly contradict one another. Nothing in the show ever directly implied that Alien X was incapable of destroying a multiverese, it just failed to provide the evidence needed to claim that he could - and absence of proof is not enough to over-ride WoG.



How many times do I need to bring this up?



This has been used many times in the OBD when WOG does not match the showings in verse and it will be continue being used when situations like these pop up.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Celestialsapiens power is hax, creating universes, bfr'ing people, destroying universes and spacetime etc...
> It's mostly hax, not raw strength. Regardless hax is power. GER and MIH are the stands with most power in their verse, despite their power being hax alone. The Anihilaarg like the timebomb, is also just hax, yet it is considered one of the most powerful weapons in the universe. The timebomb and Anihilaarg have no DC, they just erase universes from existence. If hax=/ power then a regular bomb would be more powerful than both the Anilaarg and the timebomb.
> 
> Champa and Zamasu are able to destroy a universe and its spacetime( hax+dc), simply because they are more powerful than weaker characters that are able to do that , right? We don't consider Trunks or Champa or regular Zamasu as merely multi galaxy +, because spacetime destruction is purely hax , which none of them have shown/ statements that prove they can destroy. Fully fed Galactus without the UN is also considered multiversal, from power scaling alone from abstracts at around his level.
> ...



The time bomb erases timelines purely by messing with time. The chromosapiens are a race that specialize in time manipulation. Why would the celestialsapiens have better time manipulation than the chromosapiens? The celestialsapiens should have their own feats. It's ridiculous to scale them above every ability every other race shows just because it's said they're the strongest race. 



Ayy lmao said:


> What plentiful evidence? A trope low showing of Gladiator using momentum to clash with Ben? Which could simply have been because he chose not to use infinite speed, since Ben was a statue at the time and he had no reason to? Or the author ignoring/ not knowing about the laws of physics like authors usualy don't? If momentum is the argument against infinite speed, then no characters in DBZ are FTL. There are plentiful of evidence against it, such as sound, gravity, light etc working as if they weren't fighting at FTL speed as well as dozens of other reasons. FTL speed goes against  relativistic momentum, it doesn't work at FTL speed unless God tiers have negative weight.
> If authors can ignore E=Mc^2, then they can also ignore plenty of others laws. Momentum with Infinite speed is no more against the law of physic as lightspeed object with mass.
> 
> It is really pointless to use physics to prove a character isn't infinitely fast, while at the same time acknowledging other characters moving FTL. Or acknowledge characters being able to destroy a universe/ multiverse, they both make equally little sense regarding the law of physics. Using momentum while infinitely fast isn't any more impossible than talking and not destroying the universe while moving FTL. Or nullifying energy.  You just saw the timebomb destroying infinite universes, which somehow took minutes, and clockwork creating infinite universes in 16 seconds, yet building up speed to become even more "infinitely fast" is impossible? Are you saying all characters in fiction with infinite speed are equally fast, and always take infinite little time to reach such speed?
> ...



Every time Ben has a conversation with the other personalities time doesn't stand still (which it would if Alien X had infinite speed and thus infinite reaction speed). You can say it's limited because of Ben's reactions but that doesn't matter as it's Alien X in this fight not some other celestialsapien.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> The time bomb erases timelines purely by messing with time. The chromosapiens are a race that specialize in time manipulation. Why would the celestialsapiens have better time manipulation than the chromosapiens? The celestialsapiens should have their own feats. It's ridiculous to scale them above every ability every other race shows just because it's said they're the strongest race.



It is not ridiculous, it is ridiculous to not put them above, otherwise chromosapiens would be the most powerful alien race by far.  Multiversal DC>>>>>> Universal DC, no matter how you cut it. If celestialsapiens didn't have multiversal DC then they wouldn't be the strongest alien in the universe. They wouldn't be "omnipotent". 
The only reason they barely have any feats is because they're too stubborn. statements from reliable characters state they have the most power in the universe.  No ability can be more powerful than theirs. They are considered limitless, by characters that have observed multiversal destruction.  The celestialsapien are constantly stated to be capable of doing anything, if it wasn't for their opposing personalities. If the chronosapiens timebomb is unscalable, then they would be able to simply destroy everything in the omniverse, including the limitless celestialsapiens. Why would Azmuth and Paradox not consider the destruction of infinite universe more powerful than universal destruction?  How does that make sense? 



xenos5 said:


> Every time Ben has a conversation with the other personalities time doesn't stand still (which it would if Alien X had infinite speed and thus infinite reaction speed). You can say it's limited because of Ben's reactions but that doesn't matter as it's Alien X in this fight not some other celestialsapien.



As I said before talking is a free action. 

Sometimes inside Alien X times moves normally, sometimes it moves millions of times slower than normal, other times Ben is talking to them while time doesn't exist etc. Time moves however fast the plot demands. This is no different than Bulma, Kid Trunks, Chi Chi etc being able to for the most part  see Goku and Hit fighting as well as all the other battles in Super despite characters moving at quadrillion of times FTL, yet Bulma was unable to see Kid Goku, Teen Goku, Roshi and Krillin moving for a while in battles during the budokai tournament.


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## Edward Nygma (Dec 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> How many times do I need to bring this up?
> 
> 
> 
> This has been used many times in the OBD when WOG does not match the showings in verse and it will be continue being used when situations like these pop up.


Bring it up 100 more times, it still won't be relevant. The author isn't interrupting anything for us here, he is simply giving us additional information about the character.


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## creyzi4zb12 (Dec 30, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> WoG can only be dismissed by contradiction, not by lack of show.


Well, if that;s how we think, then Toribot is fourth dimensional and aint nobody can touch him


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Sloth said:


> Bring it up 100 more times, it still won't be relevant. The author isn't *interrupting* anything for us here, he is simply giving us additional information about the character.



I think you mean interpreting. And yeah he is. He's interpreting Alien X's power in a way completely different than portrayed in verse. No celestialsapien was ever shown effecting a whole multiverse.


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## Montanz (Dec 30, 2016)

Wasn't there a similar situation with DMC and Kamiya saying mundus created an universe and some shit? don't know how that went down in the OBD but if that's not accepted why would this tweet be any different?

but meh, most current verses are rated on a case-by-case basis so it probably doesn't matter.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> It is not ridiculous, it is ridiculous to not put them above, otherwise chromosapiens would be the most powerful alien race by far.  Multiversal DC>>>>>> Universal DC, no matter how you cut it. If celestialsapiens didn't have multiversal DC then they wouldn't be the strongest alien in the universe. They wouldn't be "omnipotent".
> The only reason they barely have any feats is because they're too stubborn. statements from reliable characters state they have the most power in the universe.  No ability can be more powerful than theirs. They are considered limitless, by characters that have observed multiversal destruction.  The celestialsapien are constantly stated to be capable of doing anything, if it wasn't for their opposing personalities. If the chronosapiens timebomb is unscalable, then they would be able to simply destroy everything in the omniverse, including the limitless celestialsapiens. Why would Azmuth and Paradox not consider the destruction of infinite universe more powerful than universal destruction?  How does that make sense?



Multiversal hax=/=Multiversal DC. It's not being achieved by power. The time bomb is pure hax. Hax from a race that is known for its time powers shouldn't scale to another race just because that race is said to be the strongest. They can be physically the strongest but still not have the best hax. 



Ayy lmao said:


> As I said before talking is a free action.
> 
> Sometimes inside Alien X times moves normally, sometimes it moves millions of times slower than normal, other times Ben is talking to them while time doesn't exist etc. Time moves however fast the plot demands. This is no different than Bulma, Kid Trunks, Chi Chi etc being able to for the most part  see Goku and Hit fighting as well as all the other battles in Super despite characters moving at quadrillion of times FTL, yet Bulma was unable to see Kid Goku, Teen Goku, Roshi and Krillin moving for a while in battles during the budokai tournament.



The multiple personalities arguing within a celestialsapien for way too long rendering them unable to perform an action immediately is a stated weakness which has shown itself time and time again. If they had infinite reaction speed and could have many arguments eventually reaching a resolution in the course of an instant they would. But they can't. Heck I think someone stated earlier in this thread that a celestialsapien was once trapped motionless for 1,000 years because of this. 

This is made worse with Ben who only has the reaction speed of a regular human arguing with the other two personalities. It's ridiculous to say that doesn't at all factor in to Alien X's own reaction speed.


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## xenos5 (Dec 30, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Wasn't there a similar situation with DMC and Kamiya saying mundus created an universe and some shit? don't know how that went down in the OBD but if that's not accepted why would this tweet be any different?



I agree completely. This is exactly the same as that.


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## Edward Nygma (Dec 31, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> I think you mean interpreting. And yeah he is. He's interpreting Alien X's power in a way completely different than portrayed in verse. No celestialsapien was ever shown effecting a whole multiverse.



As an author he sets the character's power, he doesn't interpret it. If he says that Alien X is a multiversal threat, it's not because that's what he thinks the canon implies, it's because that's objectively how powerful Alien X is and has always been. When an author talks about their universe, they are speaking with the knowledge and authority of a true omniscient. Anything the author says is, and has always been, a fact of their universe.

Again, if anything in the show directly contradicted this claim (ie Alien X trying and failing to affect multiple universes) that would be a different story. Absence of proof is not enough to override the word of an effectively omniscient source.


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## xenos5 (Dec 31, 2016)

Sloth said:


> As an author he sets the character's power, he doesn't interpret it. If he says that Alien X is a multiversal threat, it's not because that's what he thinks the canon implies, it's because that's objectively how powerful Alien X is and has always been. When an author talks about their universe, they are speaking with the knowledge and authority of a true omniscient. Anything the author says is, and has always been, a fact of their universe.
> 
> Again, if anything in the show directly contradicted this claim (ie Alien X trying and failing to affect multiple universes) that would be a different story. Absence of proof is not enough to override the word of an effectively omniscient source.



As Montanz pointed out. This is just like Kamiya's statement on twitter about Mundus's creating a universe that wasn't accepted. In both cases the feats of the character shown in universe don't match the power the WOG statment is putting them at. And another example (which I gave earlier in this thread) is that of how one of the Avatar: The Last Airbender creators said Toph was stronger than Hulk even though nothing in universe supported that level of power.

The source material always hold precedence. Statements made after the fact that aren't supported by anything from the source material < the source material.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 31, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> Well, if that;s how we think, then Toribot is fourth dimensional and aint nobody can touch him



When was Toribot called fourth dimensional or untouchable?

There is an official guide calling him the ruler of the universe above Kaioshins. Thats it as far as I know.

In fact there is no, as far as I know, WoG for Toribot.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 31, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> As Montanz pointed out. This is just like Kamiya's statement on twitter about Mundus's creating a universe that wasn't accepted. In both cases the feats of the character shown in universe don't match the power the WOG statment is putting them at.



That is because creating a universe by itself is a vague statement.

When was it created? How? In how much time? Was it taxing? Did it required an item? Did it required special circumstances?

With X we are told he can and the exact method he would use, we know how he operates.



xenos5 said:


> And another example (which I gave earlier in this thread) is that of how one of the Avatar: The Last Airbender creators said Toph was stronger than Hulk even though nothing in universe supported that level of power.



Toph being > Hulk is proven wrong, is falsified, is contradicted.

Thats way different than a simple lack of show.

Also Hulk is a character not created by the author and as such he has no power over him.

This is way different than X's situation. Here there is no contradictory proof, only lack of show. Also the author is using his creation to compare X, rather than characters outside his control.



xenos5 said:


> The source material always hold precedence. Statements made after the fact that aren't supported by anything from the source material < the source material.



Yes, which is why if the source material contradicts WoG, the source takes precedence.

Here however there is no precedence to take, there is no contradiction, here simply the secondary source is making a claim while the primary source is neither denying it, nor confirming it.

Also it is perfectly consistant with what has been shown in the series. It is not something outrageous, like lets say, the author stating Gwen can destroy the omniverse with a spell.

I mean, even then, it would be WoG, but its not even that.

X has been over and over called one of the most powerful beings in the universe, multiple authors treat him as limitless, he created an universe with zero effort.

All the author did was to confirm that indeed his abilities extend to the entirety of the Ben10verse rather than just what has been shown on screen.

If you want to argue "still doesnt count" in the face of this, then you are arguing for WoG not only being inferior to the source material, but having absolutely no relevance at all.

Basically you are saying WoG is invalid, until it shows what it says. Which is the same as saying WoG is utterly invalid, since you are saying WoG doesnt count until what is said is shown, and by then since it is shown, WoG would be irrelevant because it was shown, making it always invalid.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 31, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Multiversal hax=/=Multiversal DC. It's not being achieved by power. The time bomb is pure hax. Hax from a race that is known for its time powers shouldn't scale to another race just because that race is said to be the strongest. They can be physically the strongest but still not have the best hax.



Okay then, Vados, Whis, Trunks, Zamasu, Black etc are multi galaxy+++, not universal since space time destruction is pure hax. It is not achieved by power, and it is not something their race is known for doing. You're never gonna destroy time by having enough DC alone, thus none of them are universal by *power *scaling. 

They have to show it, or have statements confirming it, if it is the case with Alien X and the timebomb.

Pure hax or not, Chronosapiens are still less powerful than celestialsapiens . If being "powerful" is about the energy output, then a regular human punch is more powerful than the time bomb and the anihilaarg, yet the time bomb and the annihilaarg are called  the most* powerful *weapons in the universe. So the energy output have no value, it's about the destruction alone. How can the greatest power in the universe be held by celestialsapiens, if they're only universal +, when chronosapiens are infinitely above that? Alien X universal feat is pure hax as well, no energy was behind his feat. You cannot destroy or create a universe with energy.

 dailymotion.com/video/x3gyu6c 19:11

Serena: "We are the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and *time ". *Celestialsapien's main power is warping *time* and space, according to themselves. This is what their species is known for, not for telekinesis, super strength or flight but warping space and time. They are the most powerful alien race,  they are the best at manipulating *time *and space, thus they have better time- abilities than chronosapiens who also specify in time-manipulation. Their DC is multiversal.

Saying celesitalsapiens don't scale to the timebomb, is like saying TOAA doesn't scale to the living Tribunal, Galactus or everyone else in the Marvel omniverse, because TOAA  shouldn't scale to hax simply by being moe powerful. Specific races in Marvel specify in specific abilities, such as super speed, Hax and DC.

Regardless TOAA does scale, because numerous times in Marvel has he been stated to be the true supreme being, limitless as well as creating everything and everyone in the marvel omniverse. Thus everything scales to him.

The same can be said for the celestialsapiens really. They are constantly stated to be omnipotent, limitless and having the most power in the universe.  Alien X even created the universe. Know what he created in the universe? The freaking timebomb  Vilgax used AND chronosapiens, meaning Alien X is very capable of creating the time bomb, activating it and destroying infinite timelines.

In the end, it doesn't really matter if you believe Alien X should scale to chronosapiens or not, he has already proven that he can destroy infinite timelines, by creating the time bomb out of nothing. So this argument is redundant. Celestialsapiens are infinitely multiversal/omniversal by themselves or not.


With CIS and PIS off, Bellicus and Serena create a chronosapien time bomb, activates it and destroys everyone and everything in the DBZ-verse.  Or if you believe they can replicate multiversal destruction without the timebomb, they do that. No matter what, DBZ still loses.




xenos5 said:


> The multiple personalities arguing within a celestialsapien for way too long rendering them unable to perform an action immediately is a stated weakness which has shown itself time and time again. If they had infinite reaction speed and could have many arguments eventually reaching a resolution in the course of an instant they would. But they can't. Heck I think someone stated earlier in this thread that a celestialsapien was once trapped motionless for 1,000 years because of this.
> 
> This is made worse with Ben who only has the reaction speed of a regular human arguing with the other two personalities. It's ridiculous to say that doesn't at all factor in to Alien X's own reaction speed.



The only time it was stated that a celestialsapien could stay motionless for thousand of years, was when Ben, Gwen and Kevin went to the forge of creation. In there, Ben said they could argue for thousands of years or more rendering them motionless, but the thing is inside the forge of creation time doesn't exist, so a thousand of years is essentially nothing in that nebula. It has no meaning.

All the celestialsapiens, except for Alien X that aren't inside the forge of creation, don't have the personality issues at all. They move freely as they please.

Ben having human reaction could very easily be the reason he's not able to do anything instantly. Ben is not a celestialsapien, his personalities are, and his alien body. Alien X has 3 personalities, or 2 personalities and a human. All other celestialsapiens only have 2. Ben is just an outsider teleported inside alien X, so was Paradox whom by himself teleported inside Alien X. If Paradox could teleport inside Alien X and can teleport Ben + himself out of Alien X, he could also teleport say Ben's dad inside there. Ben's dad is not a celestialsapien, thus doesn't have infinite reaction speed. Time would flow normally for him there, the same with Ben.  Serena and Bellicus and Alien X's body are the celestialsapien, they are the one with infinite reaction speed, not Ben.

Ben doesn't literally become a celestialsapien, he's just teleported into their "pocket universe", or mind or whatever. If Ben did become Alien X, Paradox would not be able to teleport him out of there like he did. Furthermore Alien X, Serena and Bellicus existed before Ben had the omnitrix. They had been arguing for an eternity.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 31, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> Basically you are saying WoG is invalid, until it shows what it says. Which is the same as saying WoG is utterly invalid, since you are saying WoG doesnt count until what is said is shown, and by then since it is shown, WoG would be irrelevant because it was shown, making it always invalid.



This, WOG is constantly used to scale marvel, DC and other comic characters, if not for it, dozens of marvel/Dc characters would be nowhere as strong as they are considered now.
Saying WOG is unusable because nothing in the source material supports is, is the exact same as saying WOG is never usable.  WOG is valid unless we have reason to believe what it is claiming is wrong, which we don't have regarding Alien X. It contradicts nothing, it only confirms them being the most powerful in the universe, "limitless" and "omnipotent". "Not having feats supporting it", means jack.

Multiversal/Omniversal celestialsapiens can't be considered hyperbole or outlier, when the verse already have *weaker *aliens at that level. It is also not inconsistent with statements and showings.

WOG is accepted to upgrade Asura's wrath's top tiers from large planet level, to multi solar/ galaxy level. Nothing in the game proves they are beyond large planet level, only WOG does. This goes against your " death of the author" thing.


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## Seekingsoul (Dec 31, 2016)

WOG is the abbreviated form of the word "Word of *God*". In order words, the utterance of the creator of the universe we're so fascinated to talk about. As such, WOG *automatically* has uttermost authority over what transpires in his/her creation; though we -- the readers -- may discuss it's legitimacy at times, we're ultimately not placed at a position to oppose what WOG had said about his/her creation. *The only word that can oppose WOG is WOG.*


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## Seekingsoul (Dec 31, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> WOG is accepted to upgrade Asura's wrath's top tiers from large planet level, to multi solar/ galaxy level. Nothing in the game proves they are beyond large planet level, only WOG does. This goes against your " death of the author" thing.


I recall Asura fighting chakravartin on a much larger scale than large planet lvl


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 31, 2016)

Seekingsoul said:


> I recall Asura fighting chakravartin on a much larger scale than large planet lv


  it was hard to tell how big they were due to distance scaling in the game. They fight in the center of the galaxy.


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## xenos5 (Dec 31, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Okay then, Vados, Whis, Trunks, Zamasu, Black etc are multi galaxy+++, not universal since space time destruction is pure hax. It is not achieved by power, and it is not something their race is known for doing. You're never gonna destroy time by having enough DC alone, thus none of them are universal by *power *scaling.
> 
> They have to show it, or have statements confirming it, if it is the case with Alien X and the timebomb.
> 
> ...



I looked up some more about the time bomb.  So it was given to Vilgax by Maltruant. I then looked up Maltruant and he's the final villain of the series. It's not stated how he created the time bomb so it's very possible he fueled it over many years meaning it would have many times his individual power. I don't know why the celestialsapien race would scale to such a weapon that could have the concentrated energy of one of the most powerful characters in the series(he can ovepower the version of a chromosapien ben can turn into which he calls clockwork even when it's upgraded by a galvamorph). Reversing the effects of the time bomb would be simpler as all it would take was reverse time to before it happened and prevent it. And even if the possibility I'm presenting is wrong the fact of the matter is that there's no reason to scale celestialsapiens to a weapon that was created through unknown means.



Ayy lmao said:


> The only time it was stated that a celestialsapien could stay motionless for thousand of years, was when Ben, Gwen and Kevin went to the forge of creation. In there, Ben said they could argue for thousands of years or more rendering them motionless, but the thing is inside the forge of creation time doesn't exist, so a thousand of years is essentially nothing in that nebula. It has no meaning.
> 
> All the celestialsapiens, except for Alien X that aren't inside the forge of creation, don't have the personality issues at all. They move freely as they please.
> 
> ...



We're not using some random celestialsapien for this thread. We're using Alien X, Ben's transformation into one of them. So since you agree that Ben's reaction time hinders Alien X it hinders the character being used for this thread so it can be speedblitzed.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 31, 2016)

What happens in the story>What the Author says

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Empress Angeline (Dec 31, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> What happens in the story>What the Author says


But only slightly more.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 31, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> I looked up some more about the time bomb.  So it was given to Vilgax by Maltruant. I then looked up Maltruant and he's the final villain of the series. It's not stated how he created the time bomb so it's very possible he fueled it over many years meaning it would have many times his individual power. I don't know why the celestialsapien race would scale to such a weapon that could have the concentrated energy of one of the most powerful characters in the series(he can ovepower the version of a chromosapien ben can turn into which he calls clockwork even when it's upgraded by a galvamorph). Reversing the effects of the time bomb would be simpler as all it would take was reverse time to before it happened and prevent it. And even if the possibility I'm presenting is wrong the fact of the matter is that there's no reason to scale celestialsapiens to a weapon that was created through unknown means.



Maltruant is not  close to be as powerful as a celstialsapien, he gets killed by Ben using the power of a big bang in the final episode. Maltruant is also not one of the strongest aliens, dont know where you're getting that from. Alien X cut a barrier, that Maltruant deemed impossible to cut. Maltruant is more powerful than clockwork, doesn't prove he is more powerful than Alien X.

Doesn't matter how the timebomb was created, Alien X created the goddamn weapon in "moments" when time and space didn't exist. And you're still ignoring the fact that in verse, it is stated that the time bomb is less powerful than a celestialsapien. How it is created is still irrelevant.
What does reversing the effect of the time bomb have to do with anything?

And again you're missing the point, the time bomb as shown in the episode " A new Dawn" you are referring to, was created prior to the year 177x something.  Alien X created the time bomb, AFTER it was destroyed in the year 20xx, not before.

No matter how you look at it Alien X *created* the timebomb regardless of how it was first created, regardless of how long it took Maltruent, how much of his power and the amount of chronosapiens to create it. Alien X has observed what the time bomb can do, so it knows of its power, and has no reason not to use it if it indeed is more powerful than itself.  And again even if it took maltruent billions of years to create, so what? Alien X created it in 0 seconds, when time didn't exist. The means of how it was created by Maltruent is completely irrelevent.

You're still ignoring that Paradox and Azmuth both knew of the chronosapien time bomb, yet they still considered celestialsapiens to be more powerful than it.
This CANNOT be because they have more DC than the timebomb, because, as I have said before , it has 0 DC. Literally anything has more DC than the timebomb-explosion . The only way to consider celestialsapiens more powerful, is if they can destroy more. You're not getting around this.
And no you can't say " power=/hax, thus you can't scale the celestialsapiens to the timebomb", otherwise you're admitting Whis, Vados, Trunks, Black , Zamasu, Hit etc aren't universal in DC, because they have neither showings nor statements supporting that they can destroy spacetime. If power scaling doesn't work for Ben 10 Aliens' hax, then it doesn't work for DBZ either.



xenos5 said:


> We're not using some random celestialsapien for this thread. We're using Alien X, Ben's transformation into one of them. So since you agree that Ben's reaction time hinders Alien X it hinders the character being used for this thread so it can be speedblitzed.



Except Ben is not the one controlling Alien X, Bellicus and Serena are. Unless they agree, Alien X does nothing. Ben cannot control Alien X, if 1 of them doesn't want him to. Serena and Bellicus are part of Alien X, thus they can control his body without Ben's interference like they would've done if it wasn't for them always disagreeing. Alien X as I mentioned before, existed before and separately from Ben, Ben simply suggests what to do with the body. In a PIS and CIS off battle scenario,  Serena and Bellicus do everything before Ben can comprehend anything. The OP doesn't even specify if Ben  is part of the fight.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 31, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> What happens in the story>What the Author says


What are reckons from WOG then?


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## creyzi4zb12 (Dec 31, 2016)

Seekingsoul said:


> WOG is the abbreviated form of the word "Word of *God*". In order words, the utterance of the creator of the universe we're so fascinated to talk about. As such, WOG *automatically* has uttermost authority over what transpires in his/her creation; though we -- the readers -- may discuss it's legitimacy at times, we're ultimately not placed at a position to oppose what WOG had said about his/her creation. *The only word that can oppose WOG is WOG.*



WOG opposing WOG


It's a vast spike filled, rocky, honeycombed network of underground cathedral cave crypts. The caverns plunge so deep into the planet's crust that they are cut off from any light. All life was purged from the world during the Vladat extermination. Now, Anur Vladias is itself an undead planet. No life can exist there, not even the hardiest life, *not Celstialsapiens, *nor Ectonurites, nor water bears (



Alien X = not omnipotent


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 31, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> Alien X = not omnipotent


Omnipotence cannot be proven or disproven. Calling someone omnipotent, or saying someone isn't is meaningless.


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## creyzi4zb12 (Dec 31, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Omnipotence cannot be proven.



So WOG doesn't prove that Alien X is omnipotent?

Thanks, that's good to know that nobody here as actual proof that Alien X is omnipotent.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 31, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> What happens in the story>What the Author says



When the story contradicts what the author says.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 31, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> WOG opposing WOG
> 
> 
> It's a vast spike filled, rocky, honeycombed network of underground cathedral cave crypts. The caverns plunge so deep into the planet's crust that they are cut off from any light. All life was purged from the world during the Vladat extermination. Now, Anur Vladias is itself an undead planet. No life can exist there, not even the hardiest life, *not Celstialsapiens, *nor Ectonurites, nor water bears (
> ...



No one is arguing X for being omnipotent.

But omniversal, which is a WoG not contradicted.

Also do note X DID CREATED the planet that can kill him.

So Alien X could change himself and/or the planet to be able to survive it.


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## Ayy lmao (Dec 31, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> So WOG doesn't prove that Alien X is omnipotent?
> 
> Thanks, that's good to know that nobody here as actual proof that Alien X is omnipotent.


Neither is your precious Toribot, sorry.


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## creyzi4zb12 (Dec 31, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Neither is your precious Toribot, sorry.


Yeah, we're way beyond that issue right now. Sorry



Orochibuto said:


> *No one* is arguing X for being omnipotent.


....


[B]Orochibuto[/B] said:


> The Ben 10 writer that died, confirmed Alien X as *omnipotent* in his forum Q&A.


Say that again?


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## Orochibuto (Dec 31, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> Yeah, we're way beyond that issue right now. Sorry
> 
> 
> ....
> ...



Yeah and what Im really arguing is that X is omniversal.

I really dont give a shit about the omnipotent claim, if its contradicted, then it is contradicted and rendered invalid.

But again, the WoG about X being able to destroy the omniverse remains uncontradicted and is consistant with the way the character has been portrayed.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Agent9149 (Dec 31, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> What happens in the story>What the Author says



So dumbledore isn't gay

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## xenos5 (Dec 31, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Maltruant is not  close to be as powerful as a celstialsapien, he gets killed by Ben using the power of a big bang in the final episode. Maltruant is also not one of the strongest aliens, dont know where you're getting that from. Alien X cut a barrier, that Maltruant deemed impossible to cut. Maltruant is more powerful than clockwork, doesn't prove he is more powerful than Alien X.
> 
> Doesn't matter how the timebomb was created, Alien X created the goddamn weapon in "moments" when time and space didn't exist. And you're still ignoring the fact that in verse, it is stated that the time bomb is less powerful than a celestialsapien. How it is created is still irrelevant.
> What does reversing the effect of the time bomb have to do with anything?
> ...



Link to this episode you're talking about?



Ayy lmao said:


> Except Ben is not the one controlling Alien X, Bellicus and Serena are. Unless they agree, Alien X does nothing. Ben cannot control Alien X, if 1 of them doesn't want him to. Serena and Bellicus are part of Alien X, thus they can control his body without Ben's interference like they would've done if it wasn't for them always disagreeing. Alien X as I mentioned before, existed before and separately from Ben, Ben simply suggests what to do with the body. In a PIS and CIS off battle scenario,  Serena and Bellicus do everything before Ben can comprehend anything. *The OP doesn't even specify Ben if is part of the fight.*



Alien X is the name Ben gave to the specific Celestialsapien he transforms into. Ben would by default have to be included.

And regardless going back to the root of this argument. I still don't think the celestialsapiens have infinite speed. Goku and Trunks picked up the Future Trunks timeline Zen'o after the timeline had already been destroyed and there was no space-time. So they moved with there being no space-time. They aren't listed at infinite speed from that and neither should the celestialsapiens be listed at infinite speed from their home being "outside of time".


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## Gordo solos (Dec 31, 2016)

WOG is fine if it doesn't contradict what happens in the story. Otherwise, it's better to take what happens in the actual canon

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 1, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Link to this episode you're talking about?



Which part? Him creating the timebomb? That happened in the episode where he created the universe. He created the universe, along with the timebomb.

Or Asmuth and Paradox mentioning the celestialsapiens as the most powerful alien? I linked that in my previous post.



xenos5 said:


> Alien X is the name Ben gave to the specific Celestialsapien he transforms into. Ben would by default have to be included.
> 
> And regardless going back to the root of this argument. I still don't think the celestialsapiens have infinite speed. Goku and Trunks picked up the Future Trunks timeline Zen'o after the timeline had already been destroyed and there was no space-time. So they moved with there being no space-time. They aren't listed at infinite speed from that and neither should the celestialsapiens be listed at infinite speed from their home being "outside of time".


Ben being included doesn't mean he has to do anything, not with CIS and PIS off.

Trunks and Goku moved in a universe where time and *space *didn't exist, without space, no speed. No space means no distance, thus the spaceship, Zeno, Goku and trunks didn't even "move".

Alien X did something similar, it "moved" while space and time didn't exist after the Aniliargh destroyed the universe.

It's worth noting In the last episode, Alien X stops the expansion of the universe after it had already started. Later, in the same episode, the universe expanded from nothing into a universe in seconds.

   16:52

GER is listed as having infinite speed, for moving in King Crimson's time skip. Time didn't exist, but space did. GER has been considered infinitely fast or "beyond speed" for about a decade in the OBD, as well as other forums. Celestialsapiens move when time doesn't exist either, making them as fast as GER.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 1, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> WOG is fine if it doesn't contradict what happens in the story. Otherwise, it's better to take what happens in the actual canon



Then the omniversal WoG is valid as it remains uncontradicted.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The Runner (Jan 1, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> So dumbledore isn't gay


I think this be a joke, but in case you aren't imma just state my piece

Story doesn't contradict so he is gay.

Word of God is relevant, unless the story contradicts it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 1, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> I think this be a joke, but in case you aren't imma just state my piece
> 
> Story doesn't contradict so he is gay.
> 
> Word of God is relevant, unless the story contradicts it.


Why do we take Akira Toriyama's  rectons from interviews seriously? Such as Buu not being created by Bibidi  but existing since the beginning of time. In the same interview, Akira also said Buu is a force of nature, made evil by humans which also completely contradicts what was said in the manga, where Kaioshin specifically states that Buu ravaged and killed  before humans could walk upright.


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## The Runner (Jan 1, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> Why do we take Akira Toriyama's  rectons from interviews seriously? Such as Buu not being created by Bibidi  but existing since the beginning of time. In the same interview, Akira also said Buu is a force of nature, made evil by humans which also completely contradicts what was said in the manga, where Kaioshin specifically states that Buu ravaged and killed  before humans could walk upright.


I didn't know people accepted that, barely remembered it was a thing actually.

I guess we might have to ask. Not seen many people talk about it , but then again I'm not really that active


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## Gordo solos (Jan 1, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> Why do we take Akira Toriyama's  rectons from interviews seriously? Such as Buu not being created by Bibidi  but existing since the beginning of time. In the same interview, Akira also said Buu is a force of nature, made evil by humans which also completely contradicts what was said in the manga, where Kaioshin specifically states that Buu ravaged and killed  before humans could walk upright.


Depends on the interviews that are accepted without contradicting the manga, like 17 being a park ranger

I'm pretty sure the "mankind" shit refers to aliens across the universe. It's outright stated in the same interview he existed at the dawn of time  and it said he grew violent from their influence over time. Nothing actually contradicts Buu being that old afaik (even tho I personally like Bibidi being the one to create him)


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 1, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> Why do we take Akira Toriyama's rectons from interviews seriously? Such as Buu not being created by Bibidi but existing since the beginning of time. In the same interview, Akira also said Buu is a force of nature, made evil by humans which also completely contradicts what was said in the manga, where Kaioshin specifically states that Buu ravaged and killed before humans could walk upright.



nobody accepts this lol

especially coming from a creator who admits that he doesn't remember some of the fine details of his own work


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 1, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> Depends on the interviews that are accepted without contradicting the manga, like 17 being a park ranger
> 
> I'm pretty sure the "mankind" shit refers to aliens across the universe. It's outright stated in the same interview he existed at the dawn of time  nothing actually contradicts Buu being that old afaik (even tho I personally like Bibidi being the one to create him)


Can't remember exactly what it said, you might be right.
Buu can't be that old, unless Bibidi is as old as time as well. Bibidi is supposed to be older than him.



Sir Jogga said:


> I didn't know people accepted that, barely remembered it was a thing actually.
> 
> I guess we might have to ask. Not seen many people talk about it , but then again I'm not really that active





Nighty the Mighty said:


> nobody accepts this lol
> 
> especially coming from a creator who admits that he doesn't remember some of the fine details of his own work



Nevermind then


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## Gordo solos (Jan 1, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> Can't remember exactly what it said, you might be right.
> Buu can't be that old, unless Bibidi is as old as time as well. Bibidi is supposed to be older than him.


Just for the record I do agree with you that some of the shit Toriyama says in interviews are outlandish and shouldn't be used as evidence.

The one you mentioned has some reasoning to it compared to others tho


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## Orochibuto (Jan 2, 2017)

When Buu got super angry at Vegetto, he was opening gateways to unknown dimensions.

So the way I see it in light of everything Tori said?

My theory is Buu is from a dimension where he existed since the dawn of time.

Bibidi summoned him to Universe 7 and perhaps even shaped him to what he ended up being.

Maybe when he was first summoned he was just the gas in the pink egg we saw and from there Bibidi shaped him into Kid Buu.

I remember being also said Buu was made of magic and/or evil. So it would make sense if Bibidi shaped him from a more primal form.

Possibly a gas that had the property that it could be shaped into a new life form and thus Bibidi with his magic imprimted him with evil and shaped him specifically to defeat the Kaioshins.

I mean Buu has the "M" symbol in him, even Kid Buu who honestly shouldnt give a shit about symbols or clothing at all. That symbol is Bibidi's and Babidi's symbol, so Bibidi clearly had a permanent effect in him.


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 2, 2017)

Buu opening dimensions is filler. The M symbol is something many of Bibidi's/ Babidi's creation have, whether it's his minion or some clothing. Buu is not made of evil, not even sure if it's magic. Buu is only evil due to the influence of humans/mortals. Akira stated in the interview all Bibidi did was summon Buu,  he didn't do anything else. He likely gained somewhat control over him by threatening to seal him if he did not obey. Buu has been retconned to be a force of nature, that balances the universe or some shit.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 2, 2017)

Isnt the GoDs purpose to balance the universe? Why would Buu be needed then?

Unless Buu was the GoD of whatever place Bibidi summoned him from.


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 2, 2017)

He's not really the balance of the universe, but him becoming evil did something to the balance IIRC.
Buu cant be a god, all gods have god ki, even Dende. Anyway, this is off topic


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 2, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> It's not stated how he created the time bomb so it's very possible he fueled it over many years meaning it would have many times his individual power. I don't know why the celestialsapien race would scale to such a weapon that could have the concentrated energy of one of the most powerful characters in the series(he can ovepower the version of a chromosapien ben can turn into which he calls clockwork even when it's upgraded by a galvamorph). Reversing the effects of the time bomb would be simpler as all it would take was reverse time to before it happened and prevent it. And even if the possibility I'm presenting is wrong the fact of the matter is that there's no reason to scale celestialsapiens to a weapon that was created through unknown means.



 20:42

Asmuth says the omnitrix is the most powerful weapon in the universe, and then in another episode says Celestialsapiens posses the  power in the universe( 00:30) . The omnitrix=Celestialsapiens> The timebomb, according to someone who is fully aware of the power of both celestialsapiens and the timebomb.  Why would he say the omnitrix is the most powerful weapons  in the universe, if that only would be because it can create the timebomb by using the power of either a chronosapien or Alien x?
The timebomb is never called the most powerful weapon in the universe or equal to the omnitrix, meaning the omnitrix surpasses it in power. The only way it could do that would be by using Alien X's power, without creating the timebomb. Otherwise the timebomb would be *equal* to the omnitrix, yet it is not considered that. The Omnitrix would be called one of the most powerful weapons, not *the *most powerful weapon.  Basically saying otherwise is like saying Azmuth meant:

"The omnitrix is the most powerful weapon in the universe, because it can create the timebomb, which is the most powerful weapon ever, making the omnitrix the most powerful weapon in the universe. The timebomb however is not the most powerful weapon, neither is it equally as powerful as the Omnitrix, despite being able to make the timebomb being the reason the Omnitrix is considered the most powerful weapon in the universe".  The same logic applies regarding Alien X, replace the omnitrix with celestialsapiens, and weapon with source or thing.


5:03 Paradox says the Forge Of Creation is the source of the universe's greatest power,  and then later on says should Aggregor succeed in absorbing a baby celestialsapien, he would be omnipotent. Paradox has already witnessed the timebomb destroying all timelines, as Paradox knows what is going to happen in the future and other timelines he will be. Paradox and Azmuth do not think Alien X  has the most power in the universe, because it can create the timebomb, just like how Azmuth is not considered the most powerful being for creating the Omnitrix. With the Omnitrix Azmuth can become a chronosapien, which can create the timebomb, or a celestialsapien which can also create the timebomb.

If creating weapons were an indicator of power, Chronosapiens and Asmuth would be the most powerful in the universe, along with the Celestialsapiens, but they are not, Azmuth isn't even considered powerful by anyone, only smart.

Everything points to Celestialsapiens being able to replicate the timelines destruction feat without the timebomb. The author's statement only further proves it. Occam's razor points Alien X as being more powerful than the timebomb by itself, so the burden of proof is not on me to prove it is multiversal/omniversal without the timebomb, but on you to prove it isn't.

This is like saying Beerus is the most powerful in the DBverse. Beerus being afraid of Zeno is because he doesn't want anyone to know of his true strength. This is highly unlikely. Or like saying Zeno is not the strongest in DBS, since the strongest in the Dragon ball series never appears until the end of the story. Zalama, Whis's unseen and unmentioned brother or someone else is stronger than Zeno. This is less unlikely, but still just pure speculation, thus Occam's razor points to Zeno being the strongest until proven otherwise.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 2, 2017)

Celestialsapiens DO have an omniversal-multiversal feat.

But I prefer for now not bringing that up because I find the WoG debate more important.


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## Fang (Jan 2, 2017)

This thread is all kinds of awful.


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 2, 2017)

Orochibuto said:


> Celestialsapiens DO have an omniversal-multiversal feat.
> 
> But I prefer for now not bringing that up because I find the WoG debate more important.


What is the feat you're speaking of?


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## Orochibuto (Jan 2, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> What is the feat you're speaking of?



In the episode of the galactic gladiator, Celestialsapiens are credited with the different animation styles of the different Ben 10 series.

This affects not only 1 universe, but the entire Ben10verse.


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 2, 2017)

Orochibuto said:


> In the episode of the galactic gladiator, Celestialsapiens are credited with the different animation styles of the different Ben 10 series.
> 
> This affects not only 1 universe, but the entire Ben10verse.


It shows they have multiversal reality warping, not that they can destroy the multiverse. Still it shows multiversal/omniversal range.


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## Toaa (Jan 2, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> nobody accepts this lol
> 
> especially coming from a creator who admits that he doesn't remember some of the fine details of his own work


Fine details?He barely remembers the mc.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 2, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> It shows they have multiversal reality warping, not that they can destroy the multiverse. Still it shows multiversal/omniversal range.



If he can warp he should be able to destroy as well.

Coupled with GoD is clear as day.

You have to literally argue WoG is not only inferior to the source material, but that it has absolutely zero significance whatsoever if you want to say X cant bust the omniverse as the author said in the light of all the evidence.


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