# Shouldn't Mokujin be equal to Madara's Full Armored Susano'o?



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 26, 2014)

Instead of his Perfect Susano'o? I mean the discrepancy in size and power should be around there, with Madara's Perfect Susano'o being on the same level of power and size to Shinsusenju given how Hashirama and Madara are supposed to be near equals?


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## tari101190 (Sep 26, 2014)

No, because Hashirama was always superior.

Hashirama has potentially more chakra than a Bijuu when he uses Sage Mode.

The size needs to represent that. Madara's chakra can't reach those heights.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 26, 2014)

tari101190 said:


> No, because Hashirama was always superior.
> 
> Hashirama has potentially more chakra than a Bijuu when he uses Sage Mode.
> 
> The size needs to represent that. Madara's chakra can't reach those heights.


Except we saw how _close in power_ Madara and Hashirama were at VOTE. It wasn't power that decided the battle, it came down to cunning and strategy for god's sake. 

Hashirama's chakra level is comparable to an entire army which had been enhanced by Naruto's V1 Cloaks, all that chakra put together nearly equals him.


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## tari101190 (Sep 26, 2014)

You're mixing up two different things.

Chakra and power aren't the same thing.

Hashirama has more chakra than Madara and so his chakra construct is bigger.

And the manga has always said they're rivals, but it always said Hashirama was superior too, so there is nothing to debate.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 26, 2014)

tari101190 said:


> You're mixing up two different things.
> 
> Chakra and power aren't the same thing.
> 
> ...


Except the gap isn't that big. The gap between Madara and Hashirama was never large enough that one could outright crush the other in battle.


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## The Faceless Man (Sep 26, 2014)

Madara needed the kyuubi to stand against Hashirama.
You can't tell from that kishi wanted Hashirama to be stronger then Madara.

Rinnegan Madara was the point where Madara surpassed Hashirama.

Hashirama won the first battle then Madara won the second battle.


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## Kung Pow (Sep 26, 2014)

Someone has watched the latest anime episode.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 26, 2014)

the mokujin is equal to madaras fully formed perfect susano. the manga already showed this when madara and hashirama fought during the war.

using parallels, feats, statements and powerscaling:

V3 susano and the mokuryu are biju level.

PS and the mokujin are juubi level.

PS clad kyuubi and shinsuusenju are even beyond that.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Sep 26, 2014)

> *Shouldn't Mokujin be equal to Madara's Full Armored Susano'o?*



No. 

Because however people choose to interpret it the fact was always there and still remains, even in Madara's own estimation, that Hashirama was always stronger than him in life.

IIRC we didn't see the Mokujin go against the Susano'o _by itself_, without the assistance of Kurama.


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## krolk88 (Sep 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the mokujin is equal to madaras fully formed perfect susano. the manga already showed this when madara and hashirama fought during the war.
> 
> using parallels, feats, statements and powerscaling:
> 
> ...



Its more like:

V3 Susanoo >= mokuryu = Biju 1-8 lvl << Kurama level

PS = mokujin = Kurama level(be it 50 or 100%) << Juubi level

PS coated 100% Kurama <= Shinsuusenju < Juubi level


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 26, 2014)

krolk88 said:


> Its more like:
> 
> V3 Susanoo >= mokuryu = Biju 1-8 lvl
> 
> ...


PS should be inferior to Kurama's level given his level of firepower and durability. Hell even Shinsusenju doesn't equate to Kurama's output in firepower. And the Juubi is far, far, far above Shinsusenju in power.

V3 Susano'o isn't even on the level of Biju 1-8 since they can wipe out mountains and V3 Susano'o can't. Hell a V3 Susano'o was shattered by Biju 1-8's TAIL SLAPS.


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## Kung Pow (Sep 26, 2014)

A crucial point has been disregarded in this discussion.

Susanoo is a predestined power, whose origins and record go back thousands of years.
Mokuton was apparently not Ashura's weapon of choice with which he decided to counter Indra's Susanoo.


The Mokuton Golem is simply an undefined technique Hashirama created in order to match Madara's Susanoo.

However, Susanoo is an ability with both history and predetermination.

As of now, Hashirama has been the only known user of Mokuton and Ashura himself seemingly chose not to use it against Indra.

You must consider the obvious, though.


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## krolk88 (Sep 26, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> PS should be inferior to Kurama's level given his level of firepower and durability. Hell even Shinsusenju doesn't equate to Kurama's output in firepower. And the Juubi is far, far, far above Shinsusenju in power.
> 
> V3 Susano'o isn't even on the level of Biju 1-8 since they can wipe out mountains and V3 Susano'o can't. Hell a V3 Susano'o was shattered by Biju 1-8's TAIL SLAPS.




Well,Kurama is a bit > PS but they're in the same league nonethless.Shinsusenju is clearly > Kurama(at least when they fight each other due to mokuton's properties,but even if we take that away there's still an enormous size advantage for SS.)As for juubi level,it depends which version of  juubi we're talking about...the first one isnt far away in power but the others'd trash SS fairly easily.

As for V3 Susanoo getting shattered by Biju tail slaps...1v8 makes quite a difference,make it 1v1 and it'd block and cut their tails fairly easily if they tried that individually.

@Kung Pow

We only saw one panel of their fight,and if someone only shows one panel,then its usually the most crucial thing.

Its roughly

Biju-like avatar w/  Gudodamas = Indra PS(pretty much anyone's PS w/ close link to RS chakra/level)
Shinsuusenju = PS coated Biju Avatar(BSM Naruto + EMS Sauce vs Juubito)
Mokujin = PS
Mokuryu = Lower Susanoo versions

Why'd he use mokuton when his primary power was stronger than it?If he used wood then it was only for binding/chakra absorbing/defence value,not for its offensive power as material quality > material quantity and gudodamas > mokuton in quality.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 26, 2014)

krolk88 said:


> Well,Kurama is a bit > PS but they're in the same league nonethless.Shinsusenju is clearly > Kurama(at least when they fight each other due to mokuton's properties,but even if we take that away there's still an enormous size advantage for SS.)As for juubi level,it depends which version of  juubi we're talking about...the first one isnt far away in power but the others'd trash SS fairly easily.


Kurama is far above Perfect Susano'o in terms of power (unless we're talking about Rikudo Sasuke's). A single Cho Bijudama is equal to a combined Bijudama from five Biju. 

Size doesn't always matter too for Shinsusenju too. The trick is not facing it head on, facing it side on or from the back is the best strategy.

And even V1 Juubi is far above Shinsusenju. It did a same guantlet (a Renkozu Bijudama) and its power wasn't stymied like Shinsusenju's.


> As for V3 Susanoo getting shattered by Biju tail slaps...1v8 makes quite a difference,make it 1v1 and it'd block and cut their tails fairly easily if they tried that individually.


Not even. The size difference between a V3 Susano'o and one of the Biju means that the Biju have the advantage.


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## krolk88 (Sep 26, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kurama is far above Perfect Susano'o in terms of power (unless we're talking about Rikudo Sasuke's). A single Cho Bijudama is equal to a combined Bijudama from five Biju.
> 
> Size doesn't always matter too for Shinsusenju too. The trick is not facing it head on, facing it side on or from the back is the best strategy.
> 
> ...



Combined Bijudama from five Biju = 5 V3 Susano's worth of power = 1 PS worth of power = 1 Kurama Bijudama...

Seems about right,really,as Kurama is > 5 times stronger than 1-8 bijus(maybe a bit less so than hachibi)

How're you going to flank SS that has a thousand hands(each with potential to tame a tailed beast into a peacefull animal) and is 10x(or more) larger than kurama?You cant.

Now,with the V3...when its kurama vs SS its "size doesnt matter" according to you,and when its V3 vs other biju its suddenly "size does matter" 

As for V1 juubi vs SS there's a full tier difference but its not such an enormous difference that suddenly one hand swipe of juubi is going to completely thrash SS...


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## -Ziltoid- (Sep 26, 2014)

Madara 'used' the Kyuubi, and still could not defeat Hashirama.. I don't even get it, why bother to explain that they are equal? Madara eventually unlocked the rinnegan, and after being revived he probably got stronger than prime-Hashirama, but still.. That's basically cheating, isn't it?


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## Kung Pow (Sep 26, 2014)

-Ziltoid- said:


> Madara 'used' the Kyuubi, and still could not defeat Hashirama..



Because, that was not his intention.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 26, 2014)

krolk88 said:


> Combined Bijudama from five Biju = 5 V3 Susano's worth of power = 1 PS worth of power = 1 Kurama Bijudama...


So can V3 Susano'o's destroy entire forests and vaporize mountains? No, V3 Susano'o isn't even close in power to a Biju.

And Kurama can nuke entire countries while PS can just bisect mountains.


> Seems about right,really,as Kurama is > 5 times stronger than 1-8 bijus(maybe a bit less so than hachibi)


Gyuki is far weaker than Kurama. Even he was shocked by Kurama's power when he thrashed five Biju without trouble.


> How're you going to flank SS that has a thousand hands(each with potential to tame a tailed beast into a peacefull animal) and is 10x(or more) larger than kurama?You cant.


Actually, you can. Anyone sufficiently fast enough t can get the side or the back of Shinsusenju.


> Now,with the V3...when its kurama vs SS its "size doesnt matter" according to you,and when its V3 vs other biju its suddenly "size does matter"


Since unlike Kurama, V3 lacks the firepower to damage the other Biju while Kurama, if he can get off a Super Bijudama, can vape Shinsusenju.

How are the tiny swords that the V3 Susano'o has in comparison to a Biju going to do any lasting damage?


> As for V1 juubi vs SS there's a full tier difference but its not such an enormous difference that suddenly one hand swipe of juubi is going to completely thrash SS...


It should be able to. Its the fucking Juubi after all.


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## krolk88 (Sep 26, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> So can V3 Susano'o's destroy entire forests and vaporize mountains? No, V3 Susano'o isn't even close in power to a Biju.
> 
> And Kurama can nuke entire countries while PS can just bisect mountains.
> 
> ...




About the V3 vs Bijuu and the "tiny sword"...3rd raikage had no sword at all yet he managed to cut Hachibi quite severely and do lasting damage...

Hachibi,while a lot weaker than Kurama is still > Biju 1-7 so im not sure what you meant by that...

Kurama can nuke entire countries?Hell no,Juubi Bijudama could only nuke a city and by logic Juubi>Kyuubi...Also kurama has shown no speed feats that'd indicate that he can flank SS w/o it hitting him.And to nuke SS with bijudama he has to charge it,which gives SS a free 1000 hits,so a fully charged Bijudama isnt going to happen.

"it should be able to its the fucking Juubi after all"- remeber myojinmon gates immobilizing juubi hands?
Myojnmon gates << SS.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 26, 2014)

krolk88 said:


> About the V3 vs Bijuu and the "tiny sword"...3rd raikage had no sword at all yet he managed to cut Hachibi quite severely and do lasting damage...


Does a V3 Susano'o have the speed and sharpness of the Sandaime Raikage's one finger nukite? From feats it doesn't.


> Hachibi,while a lot weaker than Kurama is still > Biju 1-7 so im not sure what you meant by that...


Biju 1-8 seem to be on the same level of power kid.


> Kurama can nuke entire countries?Hell no,Juubi Bijudama could only nuke a city and by logic Juubi>Kyuubi...Also kurama has shown no speed feats that'd indicate that he can flank SS w/o it hitting him.And to nuke SS with bijudama he has to charge it,which gives SS a free 1000 hits,so a fully charged Bijudama isnt going to happen.


Kurama is a Country buster. The Juubi is a _continent to multi-continent buster_ Hell Kurama's Super Bijudama has a radius of 100 kilometers when exploded. The Juubi's? 300-1000 kilometers. 

And Kurama is fast enough to do that.


> "it should be able to its the fucking Juubi after all"- remeber myojinmon gates immobilizing juubi hands?
> Myojnmon gates << SS.


Myojinmon Gates only pinned a mostly IMMOBILE Juubi, without damaging it.


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## klutchii (Sep 26, 2014)

Sage powered mokujin = perfect susanoo = 100% kurama < shinsusenjuu


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 26, 2014)

krolk88 said:


> V3 Susanoo >= mokuryu = Biju 1-8 lvl << Kurama level


V3 susano and the mokuryu are biju level hence these instances:







> PS = mokujin = Kurama level(be it 50 or 100%) << Juubi level


nope, PS is juubi level and so is the mokujin since it equals it in combat.

PS is equal to the power of the biju, not a biju.

the scale of PS is equal to the juubis(as is the mokujin), based on the positions of hashiramas gates and the size of PS in the scan.


PS equals the firepower of six paths naruto whom has the power of all of the biju.




> PS coated 100% Kurama <= Shinsuusenju < Juubi level


both PS and the mokujin are juubi level.
PS clad kyuubi and shinsuusenju are on an even higher tier of power than that.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> V3 Susano'o isn't even on the level of Biju 1-8 since they can wipe out mountains and V3 Susano'o can't. Hell a V3 Susano'o was shattered by Biju 1-8's TAIL SLAPS.



kuramas movement speed and basic firepower were matched by V3 susano and it took eight biju,* not one*, to break a V3 susano.


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## krolk88 (Sep 26, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Does a V3 Susano'o have the speed and sharpness of the Sandaime Raikage's one finger nukite? From feats it doesn't.
> 
> Biju 1-8 seem to be on the same level of power kid.
> 
> ...



Show me a panel when juubi nukes a continent...

And then i read the "The juubi's? 300-1000 kilometers"...

Like seriously?Someone doesnt know how large continents are if he thinks something as tiny as a couple hundred km radius = multiple continents...its smallish country level,at best,and as i said,the most juubi bijudama could do was city nuking,if it could do anything more it wouldnt have to aim at SA HQ and minato wouldnt be able to teleport it far away from everyone.

Dont make me laugh at kurama = country nuke...Nagato wanted to use all the bjius to make a weapon that'd be able to destroy countries,but even then it wouldnt nuke them off the planet completely...

Hachibi > 1-7 biju and one surprise PIS panel with horn ram isnt enough to prove its any different than it.And dont call me a kid...

Mostly immobile juubi?Who cares,at least it pinned it down,on panel,unlike your continent busters bullshit


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## KeyofMiracles (Sep 26, 2014)

No, because Shinsuusenju and PS Clad Kurama were shown as equals. PS Clad Kurama>>>PS. Thus Mokujin can equal it.


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## Rocky (Sep 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami, can you do us all a favor and never post in another Hashirama thread ever again.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> using parallels, feats, statements and powerscaling:
> 
> PS and the mokujin are juubi level.
> 
> PS clad kyuubi and shinsuusenju are even beyond that.


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## Trojan (Sep 26, 2014)

IMO, Hashirama's Golem is on the same level as Madara's PS from the opposite side.

Like, Madara's PS has MUCH more fire power than Hashirama's Golem, but the later has
the defensive power, and the ability to stop the slashes, which is why they cancel each other out. 

I would rather fight the Golem who hasn't shown that much in term offensive power, than
fighting Madara's PS.



:rofl


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## Ashi (Sep 27, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> V3 susano and the mokuryu are biju level hence these instances:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is so wrong 

I just can't even


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## Hachibi (Sep 27, 2014)

PS being Juubi-level?
  

That's the most retarded shit I ever read.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 27, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except we saw how _close in power_ Madara and Hashirama were at VOTE. It wasn't power that decided the battle, it came down to cunning and strategy for god's sake.
> 
> Hashirama's chakra level is comparable to an entire army which had been enhanced by Naruto's V1 Cloaks, all that chakra put together nearly equals him.



Except you are wrong. Madara came prepared and with ultimate chakra battery (Kyuubi) and Hashirama did not want to kill them till the end 

Close in power ? There where in completely different dimensions in power


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## Raiken (Sep 27, 2014)

In their Adulthood, Hashirama was more powerful than Madara.

Madara needed control of the most powerful Bijuu, to be on Hashirama's level.
SM Hashirama >> Base Hashirama = EMS Madara
Rinnegan Madara is on a similar level to SM Hashirama, as is EMS+100% Kyuubi Madara

Varied Mokuton Techniques = "Standard Size" Upper Body and Full Body Susano'o L1-L4
Mokuryu =  "Giant Size" Full Body Susano'o L3-L5
Mokujin = "Super-Giant Size" Full Body Susano'o L3-L5
Senpou: Shinsuusenju = "No Susano'o has ever equalled, even 100% Kyuubi+Perfect Susano'o, while only just, lost to Senpou: Shinsuusenju."


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> PS being Juubi-level?
> 
> 
> That's the most retarded shit I ever read.



yet PS is what allows sasuke to match the firepower of all nine biju that are inside of naruto whom allow naruto to replicate a juubi jinchurikis body.


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## Hachibi (Sep 27, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> yet PS is what allows sasuke to match the firepower of all nine biju that are inside of naruto whom allow naruto to replicate a juubi jinchurikis body.



PS isn't what make him near Naruto, Rinnegan (and by proxy, Rikudo Chakra) is.


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## Jagger (Sep 27, 2014)

Kung Pow said:


> Because, that was not his intention.


Except for the fact he clearly lost and had to lock himself in a cave to heal himself from the injuries obtained during the fight.

He won at the end of the day as his influence started to spread and he survived, but it's clear as water he also intented to win the fight as it would have been a bonus as well. He placed that well-timed Izanagi to save himself in case things went wrong, but the fact he brought Kurama to the fight and even losing the beat in the process, proves he didn't want to lose on purpose.


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## Empathy (Sep 27, 2014)

A senjutsu-powered _Mokujin_ is probably on the same level as perfect _Susanoo_ (based on their battle during the Obito Juubi jinchuuriki fight). I doubt it's superior offensively, though. Madara with the full Kyuubi clad in perfect _Susanoo_ is the only thing he had to threaten Hashirama with, and even then it lost to _Senpou: Shin Suusenju_. The distinction between the full Kyuubi and perfect _Susanoo_ combined and separated is important. They're a threat to Hashirama combined, but separated Hashirama can compete with just senjutsu-bolstered _Mokujin_ and _Mokuryuu_ (though he wouldn't necessarily win).


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> PS isn't what make him near Naruto, Rinnegan (and by proxy, Rikudo Chakra) is.


Not to mention Naruto wiped out the entire Chibaku Tensei shower with a single move while Sasuke only destroyed what, two of them? That kind of shows Naruto's destructive power was greater than Sasuke's.


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## Trojan (Sep 27, 2014)

Not to mention Naruto has little chakra from each of them, rather than the entire thing, and he still
several times stronger than Sasuke's PS. :rofl

and it's very likely that Sasuke's PS is stronger than Madara's to begin with.


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## Hachibi (Sep 27, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Not to mention Naruto has little chakra from each of them, rather than the entire thing, and he still
> several times stronger than Sasuke's PS. :rofl
> 
> and it's very likely that Sasuke's PS is stronger than Madara's to begin with.



Several times would be like the difference between Ei and Base B in movement speed, so no.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> PS isn't what make him near Naruto, Rinnegan (and by proxy, Rikudo Chakra) is.



because when it came to destroying madaras meteors, sasuke used his rinnegan. oh wait, no he didnt.

when it came to holding off kaguya, sasuke used his rinnegan. oh wait, he used PS.

PS is sasukes full power just like PS is madaras full power(_when he isnt a juubi jin_) despite his rinnegan.


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## Hachibi (Sep 27, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> because when it came to destroying madaras meteors, sasuke used his rinnegan. oh wait, no he didnt.
> 
> when it came to holding off kaguya, sasuke used his rinnegan. oh wait, he used PS.
> 
> PS is sasukes full power just like PS is madaras full power(_when he isnt a juubi jin_) despite his rinnegan.



PS is like Sasuke's strongest offensive technique show so far while his Rinnegan is more in the hax field. That isn't comparable.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> PS is like Sasuke's strongest offensive technique show so far while his Rinnegan is more in the hax field. That isn't comparable.



powers arent separated into different categories in the narutoverse. a character has their full power and every other technique in their arsenal is considered inferior.

there are characters that dont have their full power determined by a single technique, but rather they use whats in their arsenal to their fullest potential when they go all out.

characters like hashirama, madara and sasuke have their full power determined by a single technique.

characters like shikamaru do not.

sasukes rinnegan does not allow sasuke to match narutos firepower. perfect susano does. if sasuke were to use his rinnegan instead of his susano to counter narutos firepower, he would lose quickly.


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## Hachibi (Sep 27, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> powers arent separated into different categories in the narutoverse. a character has their full power and every other technique in their arsenal is considered inferior.
> 
> there are characters that dont have their full power determined by a single technique, but rather they use whats in their arsenal to their fullest potential when they go all out.
> 
> ...



Sasuke used PS while he was learning how to use his Rinnegan. After it he was genjutsu'ing and Chibaku Tensei'ing Bijuus.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Sasuke used PS while he was learning how to use his Rinnegan. After it he was genjutsu'ing and Chibaku Tensei'ing Bijuus.



whats your point? sasukes feats with his rinnegan are still below his PS.

his perfect susano chopped up madaras mass CT which were much larger than sasukes.


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## Hachibi (Sep 27, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> whats your point? sasukes feats with his rinnegan are still below his PS.
> 
> his perfect susano chopped up madaras mass CT which were much larger than sasukes.



Sasuke didn't need them to be as large as possible unlike Madara.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Sasuke didn't need them to be as large as possible unlike Madara.



your going to need to prove that sasuke can make them as large as madaras and in the same amount then.

"im getting used to the rinnegan." is not sufficient evidence.


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## Hachibi (Sep 27, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> your going to need to prove that sasuke can make them as large as madaras and in the same amount then.
> 
> "im getting used to the rinnegan." is not sufficient evidence.





And it's counting that he just came back form fighting Kaguya and he isn't exhausted.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> And it's counting that he just came back form fighting Kaguya and he isn't exhausted.



this isnt proof that he can use CT just like madara did.


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## Hachibi (Sep 27, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> this isnt proof that he can use CT just like madara did.



Because they used them for two different purpose: Madara for stalling, Sasuke for restraining.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 28, 2014)

ℜai said:


> Perfect Susano'o = Yin Kurama
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perfect Susano'o's shown inferior power to what the Biju can do. Biju can casually vaporize mountains while Perfect Susano'o just slices them in half. Kurama, any half is far above Perfect Susano'o in power.


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## Ashi (Sep 28, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> And it's counting that he just came back form fighting Kaguya and he isn't exhausted.



He didn't do much in that fight XD he played decoy amane waited out so he could pat Grandma Otsutsuki's back


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## Rocky (Sep 28, 2014)

In my opinion:

Unstabilized Perfect Susano'o = Wood Human < Perfect Susano'o = Senjutsu Wood Human < Kyūsano'o < Senjutsu Shin Sūsenju.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 29, 2014)

For goodness sake, neither PS nor Mokujin are on the Juubi's level.

Using Sasuke's PS is a very idiotic stance to take for it IGNORES the Rikudou chakra Sasuke has as well as the RINNEGAN's chakra. *Those* powers are being used to rival Naruto's Juubi powers.

To answer the OP: Mokujin is several times larger than the normal full Susanoo. It would overwhelm it. That's why PS is is the equivalent to Mokujin. 
Shinsuusenju is like the trump card Hashirama has in case things get really bad e.g. Madara using Kurama alongside Susanoo.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 29, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Using Sasuke's PS is a very idiotic stance to take for it IGNORES the Rikudou chakra Sasuke has as well as the RINNEGAN's chakra. *Those* powers are being used to rival Naruto's Juubi powers.


the most rikudo chakra that sasuke ever had was the yin seal that was on his hand, which is now gone. 
all it was meant to do was combine with the power of narutos yang seal to perform chibaku tensei.

the rinnegan doesnt do anything to susano other than turning it from a ems susano into a rinnegan susano.
the power output is unaffected as seen with madara.


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## iJutsu (Sep 29, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> with Madara's Perfect Susano'o being on the same level of power and size to Shinsusenju



lolwut? My guess is you never read the manga. Comparing SS to PS is like comparing Shaq to a newborn baby. That thing literally baby shaked 100% Kurama.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 30, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the most rikudo chakra that sasuke ever had was the yin seal that was on his hand, which is now gone.
> all it was meant to do was combine with the power of narutos yang seal to perform chibaku tensei.
> 
> the rinnegan doesnt do anything to susano other than turning it from a ems susano into a rinnegan susano.
> the power output is unaffected as seen with madara.



Sasuke was given Six Paths power; Rinnegan is part of Six Paths power. 

The Rinnegan does power up jutsu with its supreme chakra strength. It is the same reason Obito could barely handle one Rinnegan. Also Zetsu explicitly said Sasuke's Rinnegan was able to fight Mugen Tsukuyomi... yet Sasuke used an EMS jutsu. Meaning the EMS jutsu was enhanced by the Rinnegan. 

Madara had an inauthentic Rinnegan when he was using PS.


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 30, 2014)

Rocky said:


> In my opinion:
> 
> Unstabilized Perfect Susano'o = Wood Human < Perfect Susano'o = Senjutsu Wood Human < Kyūsano'o < Senjutsu Shin Sūsenju.



That's exactly how i see it also


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 30, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke was given Six Paths power; Rinnegan is part of Six Paths power.


so anything that you use to benefit sasukes case will also be used for madara.


> The Rinnegan does power up jutsu with its supreme chakra strength. It is the same reason Obito could barely handle one Rinnegan. Also Zetsu explicitly said Sasuke's Rinnegan was able to fight Mugen Tsukuyomi... yet Sasuke used an EMS jutsu. Meaning the EMS jutsu was enhanced by the Rinnegan.


sasuke used susano through the rinnegan and since the rinnegan resists MT, his susano did as well. thats all there is to it. as seen with madara, the rinnegan does not increase the power of susano, it merely turns it into a rinnegan susano.



> Madara had an inauthentic Rinnegan when he was using PS.


the only stated canon drawback of a fake rinnegan is not being able to summon the gedo mazo.


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## Raiken (Sep 30, 2014)

PS = Mokujin
PS+Senju DNA = Senpou: Mokujin
PS+100% Kyuubi <= Senpou: Shinsuusenju


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 30, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> lolwut? My guess is you never read the manga. Comparing SS to PS is like comparing Shaq to a newborn baby. That thing literally baby shaked 100% Kurama.


1. I knwo they aren't equal, I said they SHOULD be equal.
2. Kurama was undamaged by Shinsusenju.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 30, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> so anything that you use to benefit sasukes case will also be used for madara.



Madara with an authentic Rinnegan, not those dust eyes you're trying to pass a Juubi power.



> the only stated canon drawback of a fake rinnegan is not being able to summon the gedo mazo.



Along with the fact it can't use powers like Limbo or even rival the power of an authentic Rinnegan user who has two eyes.

Bear in mind your point will look worse if you are going to claim that Edo Rinnegan Madara = living Rinnegan Madara.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 30, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara with an authentic Rinnegan, not those dust eyes you're trying to pass a Juubi power.


whether the eyes are dust or not makes no difference here. not when the manga stated the drawbacks that come with having a fake rinnegan and none of them have anything to do with how much it enhances the user.




> Along with the fact it can't use powers like Limbo or even rival the power of an authentic Rinnegan user who has two eyes.


a fake rinnegan can use the six paths abilities just fine, even when the fake rinnegan isnt even in the original owner.




> Bear in mind your point will look worse if you are going to claim that Edo Rinnegan Madara = living Rinnegan Madara.


one can summon the mazo, and the other cannot, so they are not equal.


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## ueharakk (Oct 1, 2014)

senpou mokujin = PS << Kyuusanoo < Shinsuusenjuu.

not sure how a base mokujin would fair against PS, considering it got fodderized by a bijuudamaʻs explosion, and a PS slash is suppose to be on that level of power, Iʻd say itʻs more like unstabilized PS or giant V4.


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