# Mega Sasuke vs Mega Naruto



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 3, 2013)

Conditions: 
Naruto has 100% Kurama (in this sort of form) fused with SM. *Naruto starts in this form.*

Sasuke has Perfect Susanoo, with two Kagutsuchi swords (instead of the normal swords) which can be freely turned into the orbs. It is fused with the CS2 chakra. *Sasuke starts in this form.*
Sasuke also has CS2.

Restrictions: none.

Battlefield and distance: Valley of the End. Naruto is on Hashirama's statue and Sasuke is on Madara's.

Knowledge: full.

Mindset: IC going for the kill.

Debate away. 

EDIT

Scenario 2: Sasuke has the Snake SM.


----------



## kaminogan (Oct 3, 2013)

prob naruto,

would a chakra roar go thru soosano?


----------



## Joakim3 (Oct 3, 2013)

The thought of PS sized version _Enton_ swords _Enton: Kagatsuchi_ spamming and BSM Naruto constantly nuking with Senpo: Bijudama's 

The only things that for certain is the planet fucking looses


----------



## Blu-ray (Oct 3, 2013)

They kill each other. I honestly can see any of them coming out alive from this.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 3, 2013)

funny thing is that 'mega' naruto and sasuke probably won't even be the height of their power by the end of the manga.

Anyways, as a flaming naruto fanboy, I'd have to say flaming naruto wins this one as amaterasu's flames don't mean much against the BM avatar.  

Unless the enton sword slashes are much stronger than madara's PS slashes (force/penetrating wise) I don't see them as being any more damaging to naruto than madara's normal PS slashes.  With mountain ranges getting lit up by enton, I think sasuke is also going to be spamming mountian busting kirin's which would require naruto to constantly use clones to counter those with FRSs.  Then there's the fact that SM >>>> CS as the cursed seal is described as a mere trick compared to SM, so naruto's jutsu should get a much stronger boost than sasuke's do from SM.

Win or lose, this battle is going to be an extremely difficult one for either side.


----------



## Psp123789 (Oct 3, 2013)

Naruto wins, with 100% kurama combined with sm he could easily create a TBB twice as powerful as this one Link removed
Either that or a tie.


----------



## Ninja Art (Oct 3, 2013)

The thought of Perfect Susanoo with Enton Arrows,Enton: Kagatsuchi  and Enton Swords  vs Super Bijuudama and Rasenshuriken

The fight will end with the planet exploding


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 3, 2013)

we already saw the power of an sm bijudama. it was mere mountain level. sm doesnt give BM naruto any increase in firepower. it only adds senjutsu to his attacks. the same pretty much applies to CS ems sasuke. neither has shown power above their previous counterparts.

sasuke wins since PS effortlessly tanks everything that naruto has then he bisects naruto.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 3, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Naruto wins, with 100% kurama combined with sm he could easily create a TBB twice as powerful as this one flies this distance
> Either that or a tie.



TBB are long ranged attacks, that require time to to charge. Sasuke will be on that ass, long before Naruto even gets a chance to think about TBB. 

Naruto would be force to engage Sasuke's chakara construct directly, and in a range battle Sasuke's arrows are much faster to deploy than Naruto's TBB's.

How does Naruto stop action long enough to charge TBB? And wouldn't such an attack harm him as well, given the distance?


----------



## Psp123789 (Oct 3, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> TBB are long ranged attacks, that require time to to charge. Sasuke will be on that ass, long before Naruto even gets a chance to think about TBB.


Naruto charged a super TBB in a second. Sasuke won't be touching him before he can charge a TBB. Naruto can also use this. 
flies this distance
The Valley of the end is huge and also the TBB would probably push sasuke back like it did bee.
Also in cqc Naruto can use chakra arms to restrain PS like he did the 5 tailed beasts which would leave him open for a super TBB or COFRS spam. Naruto in 100% kurama cloak would be twice the size he used to be so this is very possible.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 3, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Naruto charged a super TBB in a second. Sasuke won't be touching him before he can charge a TBB. Naruto can also use this.
> flies this distance



Where? Here? Here?

A small TBB isn't going to do much, and a larger one takes more time.
Look the current events. Naruto hasn't quite had time to charge anything atm, yet Sasuke switching weapons on the fly.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 3, 2013)

Naruto charged one equivalent to the power of 5 Bijuu in one panel. It takes him basically no time.


----------



## Psp123789 (Oct 3, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Where? Here? Here?


HereAlso TBB barrage can be charged almost instantly and sauske's arrows will hardly even scratch naruto. Sasuke has done barely anything since he arrived.


----------



## Joakim3 (Oct 3, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> HereAlso TBB barrage can be charged almost instantly and sauske's arrows won't damage him that much.



Sasuke would just have _Enton Magatama_ the size of standard Bijudama's and the piercing power of FRS or Kirin to counter _Renzuki Bijudama_ due to everything being upscaled to PS size

This is discounting Naruto having to spam FRS & BM/RM _Kage Bunshin_ 24/7 due to Sasuke nuking with _Kirin_ thanks to everything within 100sq.km being in a sea of _Amaterasu_ 

Naruto wins, but my god would it be a agonizingly hard fight


----------



## Psp123789 (Oct 3, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Sasuke would just have _Enton Magatama_ the size of standard Bijudama's and the piercing power of FRS or Kirin to counter _Renzuki Bijudama_ due to everything being upscaled to PS size
> 
> This is discounting Naruto having to spam FRS & BM/RM _Kage Bunshin_ 24/7 due to Sasuke nuking with _Kirin_ thanks to everything within 100sq.km being in a sea of _Amaterasu_
> 
> Naruto wins, but my god would it be a agonizingly hard fight


I never said anything about Naruto winning this easily. I already said Naruto wins or tie.


----------



## Joakim3 (Oct 3, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> I never said anything about Naruto winning this easily. I already said Naruto wins or tie.



I know...... I was just stating my opinion lol


----------



## Psp123789 (Oct 3, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> I know...... I was just stating my opinion lol


Lol sorry I thought you were implying that I said Naruto stomps. I didn't mean to sound rude.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 3, 2013)

Naruto should win. Perfect Susanoo has inferior firepower, CS2 is inferior to Sage Mode, and Naruto's 100% Kurama Biju Sage Mode is completely on another level when it comes to firepower, speed, durability, and pure physical strength.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Oct 3, 2013)

all of Naruto's powerups >Sasuke's


----------



## PopoTime (Oct 3, 2013)

Valley of the end becomes Nuclear Wasteland of the End.

Sasuke gets nuked by Continuous Senpou Bijuudama


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 3, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Where? Here? Here?
> 
> A small TBB isn't going to do much, and a larger one takes more time.
> Look the current events. Naruto hasn't quite had time to charge anything atm, yet Sasuke switching weapons on the fly.



Naruto's charged a super in the matter of moments, and in BM he blocked the V1 juubi's laser with just his tails, and rapidfire bijuudama still does good damage to PS.

in this thread, he not only has a far larger avatar which means far bigger tails but he's powered up by SM as well.  PS slashes are only on par with normal bijuudamas and amaterasu doesn't do jack to chakra cloaks, naruto can sit there and charge his bijuudama all day while protected by his tails.


you know what now that you've reminded me of naruto's tails, he wins this without being pushed to extreme difficulty.  100% Kurama's tails are *way larger than PS, Kurama's or mokujin's arms.*

Naruto just transforms them into *chakra arms* and Sasuke *can't even use his sword or fire arrows *anymore.  He'll just be forced to sit there and watch as Naruto charges and fires a senpou bijuudama larger than his own susanoo.


----------



## Ninja Art (Oct 3, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Naruto's charged a super in the matter of moments, and in BM he blocked the V1 juubi's laser with just his tails, and rapidfire bijuudama still does good damage to PS.
> 
> in this thread, he not only has a far larger avatar which means far bigger tails but he's powered up by SM as well.  PS slashes are only on par with normal bijuudamas and amaterasu doesn't do jack to chakra cloaks, naruto can sit there and charge his bijuudama all day while protected by his tails.
> 
> ...



Except the Susanoo you're showing was only unstabilized Perfect Susanoo and it didn't have a lower body on top of that....stabilized Perfect Susanoo is far bigger than an unstabilized PS without any lower....lol, i didn't even bring up stabilized Perfect Susanoo lower body...it's size alone is far superior without any lower body....


----------



## Kai (Oct 3, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> sm doesnt give BM naruto any increase in firepower. it only adds senjutsu to his attacks.


LOL, what am I reading?


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 3, 2013)

Ninja Art said:


> Except the Susanoo you're showing was only unstabilized Perfect Susanoo and it didn't have a lower body on top of that....stabilized Perfect Susanoo is far bigger than an unstabilized PS without any lower....lol, i didn't even bring up stabilized Perfect Susanoo lower body...it's size alone is far superior without any lower body....



that has absolutely nothing to do with my argument that 100% Kurama's tails are larger and thicker than PS's arms.   PS being unstabalized or not having a lower body has zero relevance to the general size of its arms.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 3, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> *can't even use his sword or fire arrows *Also TBB barrage can be charged almost instantly and sauske's arrows will hardly even scratch naruto. Sasuke has done barely anything since he arrived.



TBB barrage were far from Super TBB.

Those small scale TBB aren't going to do much.

Sasuke's done more offensively than Naruto since he's arrived. 
Sasuke's Enton arrows on a larger scale wouldn't harm Naruto? You're joking right?


----------



## Etherborn (Oct 3, 2013)

Isn't it kind of obvious that Naruto wins?


----------



## Csdabest (Oct 3, 2013)

Sasuke wins......Perfect Susano-o has already tanked. Bijuu-damas before. Naruto gets ate up by Enton swords. Naruto wont fight Sasuke until he has finished upgrading all his powers. Because its obvious Naruto is going to need something else to deal with enton manipulation.


----------



## Etherborn (Oct 3, 2013)

Sasuke's Susanoo can stand up to charged tailed beast bombs? Since when? Are we powerscaling his Susanoo based on how strong Madara's is? Because that makes no sense. 

I really don't see how Sasuke can win this. Naruto has the upper hand in everything. Speed, strength, durability, destructive capacity, reactions, stamina...

Just because their rivals doesn't mean they have to be close in strength at every moment in the series.


----------



## Psp123789 (Oct 3, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> TBB barrage were far from Super TBB.
> 
> Those small scale TBB aren't going to do much.


They're still able to destroy mountains and are enhanced by senjutsu. Naruto can fire 4 off instantly. PS isn't going to easily walk off TBB spam, but why does naruto even need to use those when he can just spam those multi mountain range busting super TBB's?


> Sasuke's done more offensively than Naruto since he's arrived.
> Sasuke's Enton arrows on a larger scale wouldn't harm Naruto? You're joking right?


Lol the only reason sasuke is even able to fight is because of the chakra boost naruto gave him and juugo's CM. Without those he would still be useless. Lol what has sasuke done since he arrived? Naruto so far is the only one who actually damaged juubito. The only thing Sasuke did was slice a large branch in half. You're saying sasuke's enton arrows are comparable to the juubi's laser? You're joking right?


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 3, 2013)

Csdabest said:


> Sasuke wins......Perfect Susano-o has already tanked. Bijuu-damas before.


PS was leveling up while it took the blast radius of a normal bijuudama.  That says nothing about how it takes even a direct hit from a normal bijuudama.

PS was busted open by an attack weaker than bee and naruto's combined bijuudama they used against the juubi.  BSM Naruto is already capable of a more powerful attack then that, and now you have 100% BSM Naruto. 



Csdabest said:


> Naruto gets ate up by Enton swords.


unless those enton swords have more penetrating power than Madara's PS sword, it doesn't do any better as enton couldn't even eat through ribcage susanoo and naruto blocked the juubi's laserdama in mere BM.



Csdabest said:


> Naruto wont fight Sasuke until he has finished upgrading all his powers. Because its obvious Naruto is going to need something else to deal with enton manipulation.


you've got it backwards.  Naruto is the protagonist of the manga his end of series limits aren't restricted to being on par with Sasuke.  It's Sasuke who's going to be maxed out when he faces naruto.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 3, 2013)

I'd like to point out that a Senpo: Bijudama is already strong enough to break through Obito's Yin-Yang Sphere which tanked four Jyubi Bijudamas going off simultaneously.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 3, 2013)

Naruto should take this. Perfect Susanoo can probably tank a few Bijū bombs, but Naruto can just spam them until Sasuke gets obliterated. Sasuke's gonna need some serious visual upgrades to hold a candle to Naruto in his current form.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 3, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Unless the enton sword slashes are much stronger than madara's PS slashes (force/penetrating wise) I don't see them as being any more damaging to naruto than madara's normal PS slashes.



I said Sasuke starts with the Enton version, he can switch to a normal version of the swords if he wants.

Though there's still the fact that Sasuke can manifest Enton orbs on the free PS hands, which implies Magatama spam.

Due to the CS2 factor, the PS ITT should be stronger than the one we've seen.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 3, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I said Sasuke starts with the Enton version, he can switch to a normal version of the swords if he wants.


i don't see why he'd switch to the normal version if the enton version is the same thing except lights everything on fire.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Though there's still the fact that Sasuke can manifest Enton orbs on the free PS hands, which implies Magatama spam.


true but enton magatamas aren't all that penetrating as seen when they were used on white zetsu, they merely burst into flame on contact.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Due to the CS2 factor, the PS ITT should be stronger than the one we've seen.


well, Naruto has the superior Sennin mode powering his defensive construct so it more than cancels the CS2 boost out.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 3, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> i don't see why he'd switch to the normal version if the enton version is the same thing except lights everything on fire.



Just laying that option out there in case anyone else feels different.



> true but enton magatamas aren't all that penetrating as seen when they were used on white zetsu, they merely burst into flame on contact.



That's the beauty of Enton coated Magatama, they don't need to penetrate anything. They ignite what they touch.



> well, Naruto has the superior Sennin mode powering his defensive construct so it more than cancels the CS2 boost out.



I'll add a scenario 2, Sasuke has Ryuchi Cave SM. Maybe that should even it out.


----------



## Etherborn (Oct 3, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Just laying that option out there in case anyone else feels different.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What is Ryuchi cave SM? Is that what Kabuto was using?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 3, 2013)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> What is Ryuchi cave SM? Is that what Kabuto was using?



Yes, the Snake Sm.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 3, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I'd like to point out that a Senpo: Bijudama is already strong enough to break through Obito's Yin-Yang Sphere which tanked four Jyubi Bijudamas going off simultaneously.



nope. it was a susano arrow and bijudama. the combo broke onmyoudon purely because senjutsu renders it as a normal shield. 

i guess you also want to claim that minatos rasengan>juubidamas right?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 3, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> nope. it was a susano arrow and bijudama. the combo broke onmyoudon purely because senjutsu renders it as a normal shield.
> 
> i guess you also want to claim that minatos rasengan>juubidamas right?


Susano'o Arrow launched _first_, and doesn't cause an explosion. Senpo: Bijudama launches after. Hell, Obito probably dodged the arrow first.

And Minato's Biju Mode Rasengan + Senjutsu is probably is stronger than the Jyubi Bijudama's. Even though the Yin Yang weapons are weak to Senjutsu, they are incredibly durable.

You just hate it when Naruto beats your favorite characters don't you, Shinobi no Kami?


----------



## Rocky (Oct 3, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Minato's Biju Mode Rasengan + Senjutsu is probably is stronger than the Jyubi Bijudama's



UMMMMM No, it isn't even comparable.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 3, 2013)

Rocky said:


> UMMMMM No, it isn't even comparable.


Not in terms of explosive damage, but due to the rapidly spinning chakra as well as the internal damage that it can inflict.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 3, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Susano'o Arrow launched _first_, and doesn't cause an explosion. Senpo: Bijudama launches after. Hell, Obito probably dodged the arrow first.


all of this is baseless. moving on.


> And Minato's Biju Mode Rasengan + Senjutsu is probably is stronger than the Jyubi Bijudama's. Even though the Yin Yang weapons are weak to Senjutsu, they are incredibly durable.


onmyoudon negating ninjutsu had nothing to do with its durability. the yin/yang properties turn anything thats not senjutsu into nothing.


> You just hate it when Naruto beats your favorite characters don't you, Shinobi no Kami?


sasuke isnt my favorite character. you sure do hate the fact that narutos power isnt omnipotent and nothing in the manga ever supports your stances dont you, SuperSaiyaMan12?


----------



## Kyu (Oct 3, 2013)

Fanfiction thread.

With both Yin+Yang Kurama's along with his own senjustu mastery added to his disposal, Nardo should be able to vaporize Sasuke's PS eventually if he spams bijudama at max power from the get go. I've yet to see a PS tank bijudama from a monster like this buffed up sage.

Biju 2-7 were fucking mountain busters and Naruto (in only Biju Mode) was able to match 5 combined Bijudama. Not saying it'll be easy as he'll have to get off his attack before getting his shit snapped up by an enton blade, however, in this 'complete' BSM, the kid should have enough firepower to get the job done.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 3, 2013)

Kyu said:


> I've yet to see a PS tank bijudama from a monster like this buffed up sage.



ITT Perfect Susanoo is buffed by up CS2; SM in the second scenario.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 3, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> all of this is baseless. moving on.


Not baseless at all. Susano'o crossbow arrows always pierce the target and never cause an explosion. Hell Obito wrapped himself for the Bijudama and directly addressed Naruto.


> onmyoudon negating ninjutsu had nothing to do with its durability. the yin/yang properties turn anything thats not senjutsu into nothing.


They've also shown high durability and Naruto explicitly called it tough, which we can get durability from. Its not that it just erases ninjutsu into nothing, its also highly protective and durable. Obito shielded himself from four Shinju caliber Bijudama-which he was never hit directly.


> sasuke isnt my favorite character. you sure do hate the fact that narutos power isnt omnipotent and nothing in the manga ever supports your stances dont you, SuperSaiyaMan12?


I've never said Naruto is omnipotent. And the manga continually pushes that Naruto and Hashirama are equals or, as of this chapter by Hashirama's own words, that Naruto is superior to him. 

And last reply to you, please don't respond.


----------



## Joakim3 (Oct 3, 2013)

Senpo PS, you have to be kidding me..... Sasuke cuts the fucking continent in half 

Who would have thought the level of fights would reach nuclear holocost scales back in Part I


----------



## Kyu (Oct 3, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> ITT Perfect Susanoo is buffed by up CS2; SM in the second scenario.



 I'm aware of the boost CS gives, but I don't recall CS2 ever boosting Sasuke to the extent SM ups Naruto's base techs & physical attributes. Heck even when it comes to durability Naruto was already able to take the V1 Juubi's lazer in 50% BM with the cost of only a few tails. Taking into account that ITT he has 100% BM(along with the enhanced dc & durability SM provides) Sasuke won't only be outgunned in dc, be wont able putting Naruto down all that easy either. Now if IF CS2 gives PS wings and shit things might go down a little different.

Now S2 is more even with both rivals having access to SM along with their chakra mechas. Could go either way there.


----------



## Gibbs (Oct 3, 2013)

I would say that firepower is irrelevant here, Sasuke's endurance vs. Naruto's is what should be under the microscope here.  Naruto has basically been fighting for 2 whole days straight against Kage level++++ Shinobi. With kage bunshins.


----------



## Krippy (Oct 3, 2013)

lol CS is a fucking joke compared to Juugo's Sage transformation, let alone SM. Sasuke gets destroyed in Scenario 1. 

If he has Juugo's Sage transformation like Kabuto then Naruto gets his shit smeared by an Island+ level Kirin.

High difficulty for either side in each scenario


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 4, 2013)

...Kabuto had _Sage Mode_ Krippy, not Senninka. Senninka is still a poor imitation of Sage Mode.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 4, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Naruto's charged a super in the matter of moments, and in BM he blocked the V1 juubi's laser with just his tails, and rapidfire bijuudama still does good damage to PS.


Naruto's never charged a SUPER TBB in a matter of moments, at least one capable of damaging PS.

Rapidfire Bijuudama's weren't very powerful, and such was against a stationary opponent. Here, Naruto would have to play keep away from a very fast moving opponent, one who possesses much faster moving attacks. 

Blocking Enton is a different ballgame, as Naruto would have to deal with the issue of Enton burning through his cloak. Oh, and dispelling it, even temporarily, is exactly what we want. And Naruto isn't the only character with a rapid moving anything, last I check.



> in this thread, he not only has a far larger avatar which means far bigger tails but he's powered up by SM as well.  PS slashes are only on par with normal bijuudamas and amaterasu doesn't do jack to chakra cloaks, naruto can sit there and charge his bijuudama all day while protected by his tails.


And enton will have no problem burning through all of that. Frankly, no matter how large Naruto avatar becomes, him or his tails aren't going to equal to this in size.

Lol PS slashes? How about PS/Enton slashes bro, everything Sasuke touches is going to be lit in enton flames. Naruto would be pressured at all times do to not only the slashes themselves, but THE BLACK FLAMES they leave behind as well. I don't see Naruto mounting much of a counter attack given that "counters" are much slower. I don't see Naruto mounting much of a counter attack given that "his counters" WILL AFFECT HIM AS WELL, IN CLOSE PROXIMITY. 

And Naruto can't protect himself with his tails and charge Bijudama. Please brush up on your feats, please.




> you know what now that you've reminded me of naruto's tails, he wins this without being pushed to extreme difficulty.  100% Kurama's tails are *way larger than PS, Kurama's or mokujin's arms.*


And Nartuto's tails are much smaller than this, and aren't much of a threat.

Naruto's tails will be lit on fire, then what. He would dispel them? Yea, that's GG for Sasuke either way buddy.

Naruto's form is at a disadvantages as it's less versatile than Susano'o, and Bijudama's don't last for seven days like enton, does.

Naruto's form is at a disadvantage because without Bijudama he has only his fist to rely on, and his fist hasn't shown much.  



> Naruto just transforms them into *chakra arms* and Sasuke *can't even use his sword or fire arrows *anymore.  He'll just be forced to sit there and watch as Naruto charges and fires a senpou bijuudama larger than his own susanoo.


Transforms them into chakara arms and gets chopped/burned up?

Naruto's transformation don't equate to a enton sword/arrows. Sasuke could potentially shape enton orb into anything, and all of it is poison to Naruto's transformation.

Sasuke's Susano'o has showcase it's capable of slicing through much, much thicker things than Naruto's tails, he'd beat Naruto soundly.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 4, 2013)

Krippy said:


> lol CS is a fucking joke compared to Juugo's Sage transformation, let alone SM. Sasuke gets destroyed in Scenario 1.
> 
> If he has Juugo's Sage transformation like Kabuto then Naruto gets his shit smeared by an Island+ level Kirin.
> 
> High difficulty for either side in each scenario



Uh......the CS is only needed to damage Juubito, Sasuke doesn't benefit much from a stat buffer considering, he uses this. 

Sasuke uses a sword and Enton, in which do not rely on strength or any special form of taijutsu. Sword and Enton, are static types of attacks. Meaning they remain equally as effective regardless of the circumstances.

Naruto needs super strength as he uses his fist, frog Kata's is needed as his range with is fist isn't anywhere as long as Sasuke with a sword. Naruto with super strength or slightly long ranged taijutsu isn't doing this.

The only beneficial part of any CS or SM transformation for Sasuke, is the potential effect it has on ninjutsu, but Sasuke's ninjutsu is a seven day DOT, I don't necessarily know if it can be enhanced by a mode that boost ones ninjutu.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 4, 2013)

It's finally out!




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Naruto's never charged a SUPER TBB in a matter of moments, at least one capable of damaging PS.


Then you are asserting that the one he used on the neo pain made much more powerful by adding senjutsu to it is incapable of damaging PS, then please back up that assertion with an argument.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Rapidfire Bijuudama's weren't very powerful, and such was against a stationary opponent. Here, Naruto would have to play keep away from a very fast moving opponent, one who possesses much faster moving attacks.


So you are asserting that Sasuke's PS is faster than the Juubi. Well, again back up that assertion with an argument.

You've also asserted that rapidfire bijuudamas weren't very powerful.  Well that's just an opinion without reason.  it doesn't matter if you think they are powerful or not, you'd have to assert how much damage you think they'd do to PS and back that assertion up with an argument.  



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Blocking Enton is a different ballgame, as Naruto would have to deal with the issue of Enton burning through his cloak. Oh, and dispelling it, even temporarily, is exactly what we want.


Well, I've already given you an argument as to why enton wouldn't do anything against naruto's cloak considering it didn't do anything to ribcage susanoo.  Thus if you want to make a counterargument and say it would burn significantly faster or given naruto problems you have to support it.  

and naruot doesn't have to dispel his cloak, he can simply make a chakra arm and disable it much like the juubi did.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> And Naruto isn't the only character with a rapid moving anything, last I check.


what exactly are you asserting here?



IpHr0z3nI said:


> *And enton will have no problem burning through all of that*. Frankly, no matter how large Naruto avatar becomes, him or his tails aren't going to equal to this in size.


The bolded is an assertion, back up that assertion with an argument.

The unbolded is irrelevant unless you want to assert that the god tree's wood is pound for pound just as durable as naruto's cloak.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Lol PS slashes? How about PS/Enton slashes bro, everything Sasuke touches is going to be lit in enton flames. Naruto would be pressured at all times do to not only the slashes themselves, but THE BLACK FLAMES they leave behind as well. I don't see Naruto mounting much of a counter attack given that "counters" are much slower. I don't see Naruto mounting much of a counter attack given that "his counters" WILL AFFECT HIM AS WELL, IN CLOSE PROXIMITY.


- why would the black flames a problem for naruto
- why would naruto not be able to mount a counterattack?
- show how naruto's counters are much slower



IpHr0z3nI said:


> And Naruto can't protect himself with his tails and charge Bijudama. Please brush up on your feats, please.


I don't see naruto trying to charge a bijuudama in that situation, how that feat would affect his ability to charge a bijuudama, nor why naruto would have to put up that kind of guard against a much much weaker attack while in a much much more powerful form.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> And Nartuto's tails are much smaller than this, and aren't much of a threat.


reread the OP, naruto has 100% Kurama which means his avatar is at least as large as 100% Kurama.  



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Naruto's tails will be lit on fire, then what. He would dispel them? Yea, that's GG for Sasuke either way buddy.


he doesn't need to dispel them as enton wouldn't do jack against his chakra cloak due to entons feats against ribcage susanoo and the durability of naruto's tails in a far inferior form.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Naruto's form is at a disadvantages as it's less versatile than Susano'o, and *Bijudama's don't last for seven days like enton, does*.


- naruto's form being less versatile than susanoo is an assertion, back up that assertion with an argument and show how that lesser versatility directly affects the matchup
- I don't know what assertion the bolded is trying to make.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Naruto's form is at a disadvantage because without Bijudama he has only his fist to rely on, and his fist hasn't shown much.


so you are asserting that outside of Bijuudama the only offensive thing naruto can do is punch or claw?

Obviously not, Naruto can make clones in his avatar that fire anything he or his clones have done that includes FRS, bijuurasengans, Chou oodama FRS, giant rasengans etc.

As explained in the post you've quoted naruto can transform his tails into arms which can attack or defend, and which can even use ninjutsu as naruto in KCM has used ninjutsu through his chakra arms.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Transforms them into chakara arms and gets chopped/burned up?


So you are asserting that Sasuke's sword is not only strong enough to chop off naruot's chakra limbs, but that he'd chop all of them off before they can grab his arm despite mokujin accomplishing that task with just one arm. 

Well back up that assertion with an argument.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Naruto's transformation don't equate to a enton sword/arrows. Sasuke could potentially shape enton orb into anything, and all of it is poison to Naruto's transformation.


again what exactly are you asserting here?



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Sasuke's Susano'o has showcase it's capable of slicing through much, much thicker things than Naruto's tails, he'd beat Naruto soundly.


So because sasuke can slice through an object thicker than naruto's tails, that means he can slice through naruto's tails?  By that logic, Naruto can blow up things much much larger than PS therefore Naruto beats Sasuke soundly.

Do not use bonehead logic, ain't nobody got time for dat.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 4, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Then you are asserting that the one he used on the neo pain made much more powerful by adding senjutsu to it is incapable of damaging PS, then please back up that assertion with an argument.


The one utilized against neo pain doesn't have any damaging feats.

The best thing you can say about the TBB in question is that it matched that of 5 LESSER bijuu's.

Again the TBB used by a YIN AND YANG KURAMA didn't do nothing to PS.

I doubt one from a 50% Kurama would do much.



> So you are asserting that Sasuke's PS is faster than the Juubi. Well, again back up that assertion with an argument.


Lol, Did the Juubi even move? 



> You've also asserted that rapidfire bijuudamas weren't very powerful.  Well that's just an opinion without reason.  it doesn't matter if you think they are powerful or not, you'd have to assert how much damage you think they'd do to PS and back that assertion up with an argument.


Not powerful enough to damage PS.

You seem to cosign TBB as if it's track record is anything beyond damaging mountains. This was a mountain buster was it not? Yet it failed to even scratch PS.



> Well, I've already given you an argument as to why enton wouldn't do anything against naruto's cloak considering it didn't do anything to ribcage susanoo.  Thus if you want to make a counterargument and say it would burn significantly faster or given naruto problems you have to support it.


Uh.....

You do know that Susano'o is a Uchiha jutsu right?

And deal how, Amaterasu appeared on skeleton frame of Susano'o, Naruto's cloak doesn't possess such a structure, it's more or less ambient chakara. And Enton manage to burn through the Raikage's shroud quite well, last I checked.

Naruto's cloak isn't Susano'o, a Uchiha jutsu, and it doesn't possess any reinforced skeletal structure.

Naruto's cloak would be effected by the flames no different than Raikage's cloak, buddy.

You talk about supporting arguments, yet you don't seek to do so. Naruto's cloak isn't Susano'o, and Sasuke isn't the one controlling both jutsu.



> and naruot doesn't have to dispel his cloak, he can simply make a chakra arm and disable it much like the juubi did.


Making Sasuke's job much easier in the process.

The Juubi got rid of his skin, Naruto can't quite do that.

The Juubi was hit by Amaterasu on it's VERY, VERY THICK HIDE. Naruto is going to receiving them through slashes and arrows.

The cutting power combine with Enton is going to overwhelm Naruto's defense, and given the ease of waving a sword oppose to charging up a chakara blast. Giving the fact that Sasuke has some control over enton oppose to Naruto over Bijudama. I must say I like Sasuke's chances.



> what exactly are you asserting here?


I think it's self explanatory, and the difference is if Sasuke's lands Naruto has to work to remove them.

Bijudama's can be tanked outright, enton not so much. Hence is why the Juubi had an easier time dealing with one, opposed to other.



> The bolded is an assertion, back up that assertion with an argument.


And your arguments aren't backed by anything, buddy.

What evidence do you have of TBB damaging Susano'o?
What evidence do you have of Enton not being effective against Naruto's shroud just because it was ineffective against SASUKE'S, THE USER OF AMATERASU/ENTON, shroud?



> The unbolded is irrelevant unless you want to assert that the god tree's wood is pound for pound just as durable as naruto's cloak.


It's relevant, as your response for TBB damaging Susano'o is that it damaged a mountain, right?

The width of that tree >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Naruto's tails.

Don't forget Mr. Ueharakk, Naruto's tails were lost tanking the Juubi's Bijudama.

Playing that game Sasuke's stage one Susano's tanked Obito's Jinton attack. But seeing as this happened, tanking wouldn't exactly be the word.

Sasuke isn't seeking to get a home run with one swing, he has several to get the job done, and every swing would be applying the enton property. Naruto would have to worry about keeping his distance, avoiding Sasuke's sword swings, dealing with enton on top of mountain an offense.

Sasuke has the advantage as he uses a sword, to his fist.
Sasuke has the advantage as his TREE CUTTING SWORD FEAT, is more relevant than Naruto's TBB mountain busting feat.

We've seen TBB fail to destroy a Mokuton jutsu before, yet Sasuke's/PS sword seems to work quite well against them, at least more so than a TBB.




> - why would the black flames a problem for naruto
> - why would naruto not be able to mount a counterattack?
> - show how naruto's counters are much slower


1. Because black flames don't exactly go away, they require one to manually remove them, which is rather hard to do when someone is constantly reapplying them. Removing them requires Naruto to downsize his defense, in which would make Sasuke's job easier.
2. Because he'd be defending with his tails like so, this isn't very hard to comprehend mate.
3.Because Naruto's counter attack is TBB, a range move. Because Naruto's counter attack is nuke, that effects him as well. A rocket launcher isn't a very good tool to utilize against against an opponent in CQC combat, is it? 



> I don't see naruto trying to charge a bijuudama in that situation, how that feat would affect his ability to charge a bijuudama, nor why naruto would have to put up that kind of guard against a much much weaker attack while in a much much more powerful form.


But Bijuudama is the only attack he possesses in which could even remotely scratch PS.

You're the one that arbitrated Naruto will use his tails, not me. 
I'm simply pointing out how that actually looks. 

And you must be joking about how it would effect his ability to charge bijuudama. Considering he charages it with is mouth, and the tails are covering his head, I'd think such was self explanatory mate.

Much weaker attacks, but these much weaker attacks are much more direct than any TBBO. These "much weaker attacks" feature an element that lingers, like a bad inch. Naruto would have to deal with that itch, while dealing with Sasuke's Susano'o. Naruto wouldn't be able to defend and attack at the same time. Combine with the range in which they are fighting, combine with the uncertainty of TBB, he is at a severe disadvantage.




> reread the OP, naruto has 100% Kurama which means his avatar is at least as large as 100% Kurama.


Oh I read, mate. And 100% isn't the size of this.

That branch dwarfed Sasuke's current Susano'o in which is as big as a Bijuu.

Certainly 100% Kurama is big, but it isn't anywhere near that branch.
PS is estimated to be about three times larger than Sasuke's current Susano'o. Well that branch is about ten, mate.

And Naruto's tails, which is what I was discussing, is quite the size of Sasuke's Susano'o here.


he doesn't need to dispel them as enton wouldn't do jack against his chakra cloak due to entons feats against ribcage susanoo and the durability of naruto's tails in a far inferior form.




> - naruto's form being less versatile than susanoo is an assertion, back up that assertion with an argument and show how that lesser versatility directly affects the matchup
> - I don't know what assertion the bolded is trying to make.


An assertion? Sasuke can switch weapons on the fly, Naruto has no weapons. 

An assertion? Sasuke's power stems from more than just what he can charge with his mouth, see current chapter for details. Sasuke's Susano can generate weapons, and coat those weapons with enton. 

On top of all of that Enton Kagutsuchi, makes what he can generate with his enton orb practically unlimited.

My argument about Naruto's form being less versatile stems from the advantage of having hands, standing upright, and being able to generate weapons designed to CUT AND PIERCE, more effective means of dealing with chakara constructs than the unreliable NUKE tactic.



> so you are asserting that outside of Bijuudama the only offensive thing naruto can do is punch or claw?


And Rasengan, can't forget rasengan.



> Obviously not, Naruto can make clones in his avatar that fire anything he or his clones have done that includes FRS, bijuurasengans, Chou oodama FRS, giant rasengans etc.


What clones? Better yet, when is the last time clones have been very effective for him? You know Naruto fans are losing when they start resorting to the clone argument.

Naruto's FRS aren't going to do much, besides fuel Sasuke's Enton attacks, and bijuurasengan are less effective than TBB.

What you churn out is Naruto's entire arsenal and Sasuke has more enton variants than that. LMAO.

I just don't see it.
I just don't see how Naruto deals with the issue of handling Sasuke and ENTON.
I just don't see how Naruto safely executes a TBB, given that Sasuke's Susano'o will likely be pressuring him.

Look at Naruto and Sasuke vs. Juubito now......
Sasuke's Susano'o seems to be much more versatile than Naruto's chakara cloak, and he isn't even utilizing the best properties of his Susano'o.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 4, 2013)

> As explained in the post you've quoted naruto can transform his tails into arms which can attack or defend, and which can even use ninjutsu as naruto in KCM has used ninjutsu through his chakra arms.


And arms < Swords.

Naruto didn't do much with those arms besides pull out the chakara rods, they haven't been seen or utilized sense.

Are those arms useful for combat? Thus far it doesn't look like it.



> So you are asserting that Sasuke's sword is not only strong enough to chop off naruot's chakra limbs, but that he'd chop all of them off before they can grab his arm despite mokujin accomplishing that task with just one arm.


If it can do this, I don't see why not.

Considering enton comes from a orb that exist on Sasuke's hand with can be reshaped, how is holding his hand going to change anything?

And lol did you even read your feats before posting them? Naruto's chakara hands are claws as well. Claws are not suited to with-strain, they lack the flexibility in their fingers to do so. 



> Well back up that assertion with an argument.


But you make nothing but assertion and you back none of them.

How do you demand something from me you're not given. No matter what new Iphr0z3nI tactic you seem to employ for disputing my points, you forget that in doing so, you failed to support any of yours.

You make assertion after assertion and many of them aren't even good.
Naruto shielding with his tail, but he can somehow manage to charge Bijudama at the same time? The assertion that Naruto can make clones would such small scale attacks would be effective against such an object? The assertion that he can somehow manage to restrain Sasuke's Susano'o arms, despite Sasuke's arms not being the problem at all?



> again what exactly are you asserting here?


Again, what is exactly hard to understand about that statement?




> So because sasuke can slice through an object thicker than naruto's tails, that means he can slice through naruto's tails?  By that logic, Naruto can blow up things much much larger than PS therefore Naruto beats Sasuke soundly.


It's not only much thicker, physically, physically that object is much denser than any of Naruto's chakara limbs by sheer logic.

Your logic doesn't quite work because we've seen TBB directly fail against PS. 



> Do not use bonehead logic, ain't nobody got time for dat.


Do not waist Iphr0z3nI's time posting an argument in which many can be disputed by click of a panel.

What counter argument have you made besides the piss poor assertion one? You dub something boneheaded, but your own counter response is even less supported, even more "boneheaded" etc. etc.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 4, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> The one utilized against neo pain doesn't have any damaging feats.
> 
> The best thing you can say about the TBB in question is that it matched that of 5 LESSER bijuu's.
> 
> ...


So once again, are you asserting that *this TBB* won't do any damage to PS?

And are you asserting that *this TBB* is weaker than *this TBB.*






IpHr0z3nI said:


> Lol, Did the Juubi even move?


yes how the heck do you think it bltized BM Naruto and Bee.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Not powerful enough to damage PS.
> 
> You seem to cosign TBB as if it's track record is anything beyond damaging mountains. This was a mountain buster was it not? Yet it failed to even scratch PS.


- PS wasn't hit directly by that bijuudama it blocked the blast with its swords and took the explosion
- PS was in the process of leveling up while it took the blast which means any damage it would have sustained would have been repaired offpanel, thus if the bijuudama did damage PS we wouldn't expect to see anything unless the damage was extreme

so no, none of that is positive evidence that PS can take rapidfire bijuudamas without damage.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Uh.....
> 
> You do know that Susano'o is a Uchiha jutsu right?
> 
> ...


- exactly how does susanoo being an uchiha ninjutsu give it the ability to resist enton?  Just because?
- oonoki and bee can touch ei through his shroud, enton attaching to ei's skin within his shroud doesn't mean anything about its ability to burn through Naruto's shroud.

If you want to assert that enton would interact the same with Nauto's shroud as it does with ei, you have a burden of proof to show how the shrouds are similar in their ability to block out attacks.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Making Sasuke's job much easier in the process.
> 
> The Juubi got rid of his skin, Naruto can't quite do that.
> 
> ...


Since you haven't disputed the point that naruto just chakra arm cancels whatever part of his cloak is caught ablaze, then you agree that naruto deals with enton by doing that.  

since the rest of your post only asserts does not make a comparison between sasuke's attacks and how well they would do against naruto's defenses, then it's basically just an irrelevant resume post.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> I think it's self explanatory, and the difference is if Sasuke's lands Naruto has to work to remove them.
> 
> Bijudama's can be tanked outright, enton not so much. Hence is why the Juubi had an easier time dealing with one, opposed to other.


The juubi is a living being which is why enton troubled it so much, naruto's chakra cloak isn't it's merely a chakra construct.  
Naruto doesn't have to remove the enton as it poses no danger to his shroud due to its extremely slow burning feats against chakra constructs. 



IpHr0z3nI said:


> It's relevant, as your response for TBB damaging Susano'o is that it damaged a mountain, right?


nope, I've never stated that TBB damages susanoo because it blew up a mountain. 



IpHr0z3nI said:


> The width of that tree >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Naruto's tails.
> 
> Don't forget Mr. Ueharakk, Naruto's tails were lost tanking the Juubi's Bijudama.
> 
> Playing that game Sasuke's stage one Susano's tanked Obito's Jinton attack. But seeing as this happened, tanking wouldn't exactly be the word.


You didn't answer my question.  are you or are you not asserting that the god tree is pound for pound more durable than Kurama's tails?  If you aren't and if you aren't making an attempt to relate the durability of both structures, then your argument holds no water as a contruct being larger than another in no way means that destroying or cutting the larger = destroying or cutting the smaller.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> We've seen TBB fail to destroy a Mokuton jutsu before, yet Sasuke's/PS sword seems to work quite well against them, at least more so than a TBB.


When did TBB fail to destroy a mokuton jutsu? And how did the amount of Mokuton that the TBB fail to destroy compare to the amount of mokuton that PS/Sasuke destroyed?  

Unless you actually find a way of comparing the TBB to the Sword slash, you simply listing their generalized track record is irrelevant.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> 2. Because he'd be defending with his tails like so, this isn't very hard to comprehend mate.


Why would naruto defending with his tails = not being able to counterattack?  Does a TBB require naruto to not defend with his tails?  Does naruto require all of his tails to defend?



IpHr0z3nI said:


> 3.Because Naruto's counter attack is TBB, a range move. Because Naruto's counter attack is nuke, that effects him as well. A rocket launcher isn't a very good tool to utilize against against an opponent in CQC combat, is it?


Except we've seen in the last chapter that the TBB explodes away from naruto when he fires it, or we've seen in other chapters that giant TBB carries the construct that it hits for miles before exploding.  So nope.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> But Bijuudama is the only attack he possesses in which could even remotely scratch PS.


really?  So you are asserting that Chou oodama FRS wouldn't scratch PS?  Or that multiple Giant rasengans wouldn't scratch PS? 



IpHr0z3nI said:


> You're the one that arbitrated Naruto will use his tails, not me.
> I'm simply pointing out how that actually looks.


well then if you are not asserting anything in that regards then you've got no argument against naruto charging a TBB while guarding with his tails.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> And you must be joking about how it would effect his ability to charge bijuudama. Considering he charages it with is mouth, and the tails are covering his head, I'd think such was self explanatory mate.




How does the tails covering naruto's head = him not being able to charge a TBB?  When he charges the one against neo pain or the one against obito, the *TBB stays tiny and compacted in his mouth* and only grows massive* the moment he fires it.
*



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Much weaker attacks, but these much weaker attacks are much more direct than any TBBO. These "much weaker attacks" feature an element that lingers, like a bad inch. Naruto would have to deal with that itch, while dealing with Sasuke's Susano'o. Naruto wouldn't be able to defend and attack at the same time. Combine with the range in which they are fighting, combine with the uncertainty of TBB, he is at a severe disadvantage.


A juubilaser that is as wide as 50% Kurama is much MUCH more directed than a PS slash that has an arc that encompasses multiple mountains.  The rest of your post has nothing to do with naruto needing to defend with more tails.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Oh I read, mate. And 100% isn't the size of this.
> 
> That branch dwarfed Sasuke's current Susano'o in which is as big as a Bijuu.
> 
> ...


this has nothing to do with the argument that my response was directed at.  Go back and reread what I responded to.  Failure to do so is a rescencion of your initial point.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 4, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> An assertion? Sasuke can switch weapons on the fly, Naruto has no weapons.
> 
> An assertion? Sasuke's power stems from more than just what he can charge with his mouth, see current chapter for details. Sasuke's Susano can generate weapons, and coat those weapons with enton.
> 
> ...


Yet Naruto's cloak has 13 limbs that can be used for attack or defense.  Naruto's cloak can actually use all the ninjutsu that naruto himself can use.  Naruto's cloak has claws and teeth.

So now you'd have to argue that sasuke's susanoo is advantages in versatility outweight naruto's advantages in versitility.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> What clones? Better yet, when is the last time clones have been very effective for him? You know Naruto fans are losing when they start resorting to the clone argument.


So since you havent' given an argument against naruto's ability to use clones or the clone's ability to use ninjutsu to aid naruto, then you concede then that naruto has this ability.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Naruto's FRS aren't going to do much, besides fuel Sasuke's Enton attacks, and bijuurasengan are less effective than TBB.


Not if they are hand delivered to Sasuke's susanoo, or fired from multiple different directions if the clones are in the chakra tails.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> And arms < Swords.


irrelevant unless you show how the swords deal with the arms



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Naruto didn't do much with those arms besides pull out the chakara rods, they haven't been seen or utilized sense.
> 
> Are those arms useful for combat? Thus far it doesn't look like it.


those arms are just like naruto's KCM chakra arms and thus have their abilities unless you want to give some kind of counterargument.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Considering enton comes from a orb that exist on Sasuke's hand with can be reshaped, how is holding his hand going to change anything?


because sasuke's and PS swords don't do anything unless they are swung.  Are you asserting that sasuke can slice through a chakra are by simply shape manipulating his enton?  If so, by what reasoning?



IpHr0z3nI said:


> And lol did you even read your feats before posting them? Naruto's chakara hands are claws as well. Claws are not suited to with-strain, they lack the flexibility in their fingers to do so.


Claws are only additions to the fingers of the hand.  By what reasoning logic or evidence do you suggest that having claws would not allow one to properly grip something?



IpHr0z3nI said:


> But you make nothing but assertion and you back none of them.
> 
> How do you demand something from me you're not given. No matter what new Iphr0z3nI tactic you seem to employ for disputing my points, you forget that in doing so, you failed to support any of yours.
> 
> ...


like usual, none of this has anything to do with the post you've quoted which asks you to back up your argument with reasoning.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Again, what is exactly hard to understand about that statement?


I've just told you what I don't understand about that statement.  Just tell me what you are trying to assert by bringing up the fact that enton burns for 7 days while a bijuudama doesnt.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> It's not only much thicker, physically, physically that object is much denser than any of Naruto's chakara limbs by sheer logic.


So are you asserting that the god tree is pound for pound denser than naruto's chakra limbs?  

If so, then are you asserting that if the juubi fired its laser at the god tree, it wouldn't even be able to make a crater in the tree the size of sasuke's susanoo?



IpHr0z3nI said:


> What counter argument have you made besides the piss poor assertion one? You dub something boneheaded, but your own counter response is even less supported, even more "boneheaded" etc. etc.


just baseless assertions.  When i call your arguments boneheaded, I actually show why they are.  And because I've done that, now I've forced you into saying that the god tree is pound for pound more durable than Naruto's chakra cloak.


----------



## iJutsu (Oct 4, 2013)

CS2 Sasuke couldn't even injure a dying Itachi. What makes you think it'll help him at all against a Sage Jinchuuriki?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 4, 2013)

iJutsu said:


> CS2 Sasuke couldn't even injure a dying Itachi. What makes you think it'll help him at all against a Sage Jinchuuriki?



Overall (factoring Susanoo), you'd be right. Though if you're referencing the fight where Sasuke managed to lodge a shuriken piece into Itachi's leg and the same fight where Sasuke burned Itachi (not including the Genjutsu stab).. then you'd be wrong.


----------



## Van Konzen (Oct 4, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Overall (factoring Susanoo), you'd be right. Though if you're referencing the fight where Sasuke managed to lodge a shuriken piece into Itachi's leg and the same fight where Sasuke burned Itachi (not including the Genjutsu stab).. then you'd be wrong.



Tobito says, Nei..


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 4, 2013)

Naruto gets chopped in half with Enton swords.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 4, 2013)

Sasuke get's blown up.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 4, 2013)

Couldn't you argue that Sasuke can set off the Bijuu-Dama prematurely by using a PS slash on it?



redfang45 said:


> Tobito says, Nei..



Tobito says Itachi could've killed Sasuke, not Itachi held back _everything_. 

Regardless, Itachi's capabilities are irrelevant as ITT Naruto and Sasuke's capabilities far exceed Itachi's.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 4, 2013)

Considering Naruto's superior speed & reflexes & Bijuudama's brief charge time compared to KN6, I don't see Sasuke preempting anything.


----------



## Panther (Oct 4, 2013)

Based on feats. BM Naruto is more than enough for Mega Sasuke. BSM Naruto would rapestomps considering how much SM amplifies one's attacks, let alone 100% kurama BSM...


----------



## Krippy (Oct 4, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...Kabuto had _Sage Mode_ Krippy, not Senninka. Senninka is still a poor imitation of Sage Mode.



No, the only difference between Juugo's Sage transformation and Kabuto's SM is that Kabuto can control the natural energy he absorbs, it's not a "poor imitation" it's a more refined version. They're both indefinite and give the same type of transformation/stat boost but one is used at it's maximum potential.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Oct 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Considering Naruto's superior speed & reflexes & Bijuudama's brief charge time compared to KN6, I don't see Sasuke preempting anything.



Sasuke having to react to the speed of the bijuudama isn't the same as Sasuke having to react to  Naruto's own speed. Unless Naruto's directly in front of Sasuke then the Sauce should have no problem swinging his sword at the bijuudama.

It's not that hard to have his susanoo swing its sword/swords. 

Anyway, neither is winning this with any less than extreme difficulty, but I'd peg Naruto as the winner more often than not.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 4, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Couldn't you argue that Sasuke can set off the Bijuu-Dama prematurely by using a PS slash on it?



you could argue that, but you'd have to support that with evidence, reason, and logic.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Considering Naruto's superior speed & reflexes & Bijuudama's brief charge time compared to KN6, I don't see Sasuke preempting anything.





Come on. There should be a limit to trolling.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Come on. There should be a limit to trolling.



It's my duty to troll trolls. 

But, you know, Kurama matched perfect Susano'o in attack rate when they attacked in unison against Madara.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Oct 4, 2013)

BM Naruto can handle this. Give me a break.

100% BSM Naruto? Lol. Naruto causally makes a Rasengan twice the size of Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo and sends him to another country.


----------



## Gibbs (Oct 4, 2013)

The Phoenix King said:


> I would say that firepower is irrelevant here, Sasuke's endurance vs. Naruto's is what should be under the microscope here.  Naruto has basically been fighting for 2 whole days straight against Kage level++++ Shinobi. With kage bunshins.


No one wants to counter this or acknowledge this?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It's my duty to troll trolls.
> 
> But, you know, Kurama matched perfect Susano'o in attack rate when they attacked in unison against Madara.



I don't know what you are talking about but let me say this :

Bijuudama have a charge time, and there hasn't been an instance where the opponent couldn't react to it.
So this "Sasuke can't preempt it" thing is basically BS.
Sasuke doesn't even have to preempt it, he'll just see Kurama charging it and he'll interrupt it.

PS happens to have greater durability than Kurama too, otherwise Madara wouldn't bother coating Kurama with it. 

I'd say PS is more or less equal to Kurama in brawling areas. And with their respective power ups, CS and SM they are pretty much equal again.

Only that the enton swords tip the scales in favor of Sasuke, given even Juubito(an entity 100x bigger than kurama) couldn't tank it but had to remove the portion of his body which was on fire.


----------



## Blu-ray (Oct 4, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> *Well, I've already given you an argument as to why enton wouldn't do anything against naruto's cloak considering it didn't do anything to ribcage susanoo.  Thus if you want to make a counterargument and say it would burn significantly faster or given naruto problems you have to support it.*



Are you serious? You do realize that the ribcage is Sasuke's own technique right? This is like saying Amaterasu doesn't burn flesh just because it doesn't burn Sasuke's hand.


----------



## Lurko (Oct 4, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> prob naruto,
> 
> would a chakra roar go thru soosano?



I swear you are so stupid.


----------



## Lurko (Oct 4, 2013)

VolatileSoul said:


> Are you serious? You do realize that the ribcage is Sasuke's own technique right? This is like saying Amaterasu doesn't burn flesh just because it doesn't burn Sasuke's hand.



I feel you bro that's sone serious bs he's pulling.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 4, 2013)

VolatileSoul said:


> Are you serious? You do realize that the ribcage is Sasuke's own technique right? This is like saying Amaterasu doesn't burn flesh just because it doesn't burn Sasuke's hand.


Why would enton being sasuke's own technique = sasuke's own techniques being immune to them?

Is naruto or his chakra cloaks immune to rasengans or bijuudamas?

And when did sasuke touch amaterasu with his own hand?

but anyways it doesn't really matter as even if we disregard that feat, amaterasu burns extremely slowly and now it's going up against chakra tails that are 10 times larger and boosted by SM than the ones that blocked the juubi's laserdama.


----------



## Lurko (Oct 4, 2013)

Omg this place is ten times worse then the obd, it's funny to read.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 4, 2013)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Omg this place is ten times worse then the obd, it's funny to read.



If you don't agree with an argument, attack the reasoning that leads to the conclusion of the argument.

If you can't then your just asserting a baseless opinion.  

If baselessly asserting opinions without backing those up with an argument is how they do it in the obd, then it falsifies your statement that it's ten times worse then the obd.


----------



## Lurko (Oct 4, 2013)

Dude we argue in the obd, there's just no point because some people aka you are blind to wank.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 4, 2013)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Dude we argue in the obd, there's just no point because some people aka you are blind to wank.



again, your simply baselessly asserting that I'm blind to wank yet you've given no argument or reason for that.

If you believe I am 'wanking' then show how I am doing so, it should be very easy for you considering something considered 'wank' means that it's a very unsupported position.  If you can't then your assertion means jack squat.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 4, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And with their respective power ups, CS and SM they are pretty much equal again.



The Juin is not equal to Sage Mode. 



> Sasuke doesn't even have to preempt it, he'll just see Kurama charging it and he'll interrupt it.



Naruto can fire off a Bijuudama in a panel, same as Sasuke can shoot an arrow. It would take a bit longer to make a big one, but he still made one in a panel against the 5 Bijuu,

Bijuu Mode Naruto's Bijuudama has never been interrupted, so where is this originating from anyway? You act like Bijuudama is a slow attack.



> Only that the enton swords tip the scales in favor of Sasuke, given even Juubito(an entity 100x bigger than kurama) couldn't tank it but had to remove the portion of his body which was on fire.



Jubito tanked Amaterasu without difficulty. The Ten-Tails failed to tank an extremely large and powerful Enton, but the Ten-Tails has skin. Naruto's Chakra Cloak is...well...pure Chakra. Fire is not going to hurt pure Chakra, just as it wouldn't hurt Susano'o.


----------



## Lurko (Oct 4, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> again, your simply baselessly asserting that I'm blind to wank yet you've given no argument or reason for that.
> 
> If you believe I am 'wanking' then show how I am doing so, it should be very easy for you considering something considered 'wank' means that it's a very unsupported position.  If you can't then your assertion means jack squat.



Dude even if I showed you proof  it wouldn't matter so stop making long posts of how your not an naruto wanker like supersayian man 12 because you are.


----------



## klutchii (Oct 4, 2013)

didn't sasuke touch the flames here? the Jinton Mu displayed against Onoki


----------



## Lurko (Oct 4, 2013)

Yup he sure does food job.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 4, 2013)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Dude even if I showed you proof  it wouldn't matter so stop making long posts of how your not an naruto wanker like supersayian man 12 because you are.



again calls me a naruto wanker yet gives zero arguments.

again says you can show me proof, yet doesn't do it.

YEah if im such a naruto wanker, it should be easy for you to at least give some kind of evidence for that.  The fact that you don't shows just how unsupported your baseless assertion that I am is.

Also, what are your thoughts on this matchup i'd like to hear your analysis of the fight because it's easy to not assert anything and just sit back and point fingers at everyone else who actually makes an effort to analyze the fight.



klutchii said:


> didn't sasuke touch the flames here? the Jinton Mu displayed against Onoki


not close enough to his hand to see that he is, he's just shape manipulating the blade without touching it like he did with all his other enton feats.  

And by that logic, you would have to assert that naruto is immune to his rasengan since *he touches his rasengan*.

But actually after looking back at how susanoo can touch enton directly i'd say that that's an good argument for why susanoo wouldn't be affected by it.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 4, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> you could argue that, but you'd have to support that with evidence, reason, and logic.



Sharingan precognition. With scenario 1 you can make a case for CS providing a watered down version of sage sensing. With scenario 2, you _must_ consider sage sensing. 

There's also the evidence that Naruto has never been able to blitz high leveled foes in battle which allows you to make a reasonable argument. That it is only logical that Naruto _can't_ blitz foes who've got a certain level of strength. The fact he's never been able to blitz Sharingan users with KCM/BM/BSM seems to say a lot... he couldn't even blitz a guy who couldn't move with KCM.

I reference blitzing because that seems to be the main argument for Naruto ITT.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 4, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sharingan precognition. With scenario 1 you can make a case for CS providing a watered down version of sage sensing. With scenario 2, you _must_ consider sage sensing.
> 
> There's also the evidence that Naruto has never been able to blitz high leveled foes in battle which allows you to make a reasonable argument. That it is only logical that Naruto _can't_ blitz foes who've got a certain level of strength. The fact he's never been able to blitz Sharingan users with KCM/BM/BSM seems to say a lot... he couldn't even blitz a guy who couldn't move with KCM.
> 
> I reference blitzing because that seems to be the main argument for Naruto ITT.



um bro, i don't think we were talking about blitzes, this your post that I responded to:


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Couldn't you argue that Sasuke can set off the Bijuu-Dama prematurely by using a PS slash on it?


----------



## Jak N Blak (Oct 4, 2013)

How does Sasuke NOT get blitzed right in the beginning of this match anyway?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 4, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> How does Sasuke NOT get blitzed right in the beginning of this match anyway?



The same way Naruto's other strong foes didn't?


----------



## Rocky (Oct 4, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The same way Naruto's other strong foes didn't?



To be fair, it was made clear that Sasuke is not comparable to Madara in terms of reflexes based on their respective performances against the Raikage, and Sasuke isn't even close to Jubito.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 4, 2013)

Too much fanon in this match-up... Way too much power-stacking. No real way to quantify any of it.

All I'm gonna say is this:

1. Naruto is not blitzing Sasuke, or anyone else in the Kakashi/Itachi/Pain/Nagato/Gai/Killer B ballpark.

2. If we assume Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o here is anything like Madara's, Bijuudama isn't doing jack shit to him, even with Sage enhancements; Madara's withstood an exchange between MULTIPLE Bijuudama and Hashirama's Senjutsu-powered Shinsuusenju. It's gonna take more than one shot to put him down, and the same is true for Naruto as well.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> To be fair, it was made clear that Sasuke is not comparable to Madara in terms of reflexes based on their respective performances against the Raikage, and Sasuke isn't even close to Jubito.



I disagree; I see no evident difference between Sasuke's reflexes and Madara's.

Both were able to react to the Raikage's standard movement physically and both of them were able to defend against his Shunshin with Susano'o. When Oonoki lightened the Raikage's body, Madara couldn't react to him at all.

Despite Juubito's clear speed advantage, Sasuke reacted to him as well when he protected Naruto from that deadly ink spill.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 4, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> 1. Naruto is not blitzing Sasuke, or anyone else in the Kakashi/Itachi/Pain/Nagato/Gai/Killer B ballpark.




If Ei can tickle the nose hair of Minato himself, then how are all of those characters, who are slower than Minato, going to react to Naruto, who is massively faster than Ei? Anyone faster than the Raikage would've blown the head off Naruto, or Minato, and those guys are reflexive roof tiers with access to Jutsu that grant unmatched speed. Naruto was faster than Ei in KCM, and the gap got bigger when Kurama allowed Naruto to access all of his Chakra. Now, with the Sage enhancement on Shunshin, the gap between Naruto & those listed characters should be _tiers_. Look what Senjutsu did to Mugen Onsa, Odama Rasengan, etc.

Bee, Sasuke, and guys of similar speed cannot perceive KCM Naruto, let alone Naruto 2 forms up.



> Madara's withstood an exchange between MULTIPLE Bijuudama and Hashirama's Senjutsu-powered Shinsuusenju.




Madara's Susano'o was ripped apart by that attack.



> Both were able to react to the Raikage's standard movement physically and both of them were able to defend against his Shunshin with Susano'o.




Madara physically reacted to the Raikage's flicker out of the corner of his eye. Sasuke did not.



> Despite Juubito's clear speed advantage, Sasuke reacted to him as well when he protected Naruto from that deadly ink spill.




You mean fat, dumb Jubito's vaporizer technique.

Not Perfect Jin Jubito's movement speed/body flicker.


----------



## Baroxio (Oct 4, 2013)

Is it wrong that I automatically thought of Pokemon when I saw "Mega" in the title?


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 4, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> 2. If we assume Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o here is anything like Madara's, Bijuudama isn't doing jack shit to him, even with Sage enhancements; Madara's withstood an exchange between MULTIPLE Bijuudama and Hashirama's Senjutsu-powered Shinsuusenju. It's gonna take more than one shot to put him down, and the same is true for Naruto as well.



Madara's susanoo didn't take the explosion of multiple bijuudamas, they cut through shinsuu senjuu's arms and exploded away from his construct, and even if he was caught by the blast, taking a bijuudamas blast at a distance has nothing to do with getting hit directly by one.  Tendou took way more damage from a normal rasengan than he did from the KN6 bijuudama is a perfect example of this.

Madara's susanoo is not surviving a bijuudama roughly the size of itself and most definitely is not surviving a bijuudama at least double that size due to senjutsu enhancement.

Madara's susanoo got busted by the equivalent of 11 normal bijuudamas + 11 susanoo blades.  A super bijuudama that's bigger than PS is definitely pushing that kind of power.  A super bijuudama that's enhanced by SM is above that power.

You can even compare the size of the bijuudamas explosions to half the explosion we saw at VoTe to see how a super bijuudama stacks up against the power that is required to bust PS.


----------



## Gibbs (Oct 4, 2013)

Why is everyone overlooking a stamina issue here?


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Oct 4, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Not baseless at all. Susano'o crossbow arrows always pierce the target and never cause an explosion. Hell Obito wrapped himself for the Bijudama and directly addressed Naruto.


whether the arrow causes an explosion or not is completely irrelevant to my point. sasuke fired an arrow, naruto fired a bijudama, so obito used onmyoudon to shield himself from both attacks.


> They've also shown high durability and Naruto explicitly called it tough, which we can get durability from. Its not that it just erases ninjutsu into nothing, its also highly protective and durable. Obito shielded himself from four Shinju caliber Bijudama-which he was never hit directly.


onmyoudon doesnt automatically negate senjutsu. senjutsu  renders it as a normal shield. onmyoudon negates any ninjutsu regardless of their power.


> I've never said Naruto is omnipotent. And the manga continually pushes that Naruto and Hashirama are equals or, as of this chapter by Hashirama's own words, that Naruto is superior to him.


only you would try to say that hashirama was talking about strength.


> And last reply to you, please don't respond.


i will respond if I feel like it. if you dont like it, then put me on your ignore list.


----------



## ElementX (Oct 4, 2013)

Narunite and Sasunite has not been released yet. Matchup invalid.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The Juin is not equal to Sage Mode.


From their recent portrayal, it pretty much is.




> Naruto can fire off a Bijuudama in a panel, same as Sasuke can shoot an arrow. It would take a bit longer to make a big one, but he still made one in a panel against the 5 Bijuu,


Naruto's Bijuudama is nowhere as fast as Sasuke's arrow.
Arrow doesn't have a charge time.



> Bijuu Mode Naruto's Bijuudama has never been interrupted, so where is this originating from anyway? You act like Bijuudama is a slow attack.


No one tried to interrupt it.
Absence of evidence is not evidence.
But we've seen on occasion that other bijuudama were interrupted or defended against. There are countless examples.



> Jubito tanked Amaterasu without difficulty.


Because of the nature of those ninjutsu devouring orbs. Not because he was durable enough to do so.
And he is Juubito, an entity stronger than Kurama, whom Hashirama admitted inferiority against, even before the perfected stage.



> The Ten-Tails failed to tank an extremely large and powerful Enton, but the Ten-Tails has skin.


And PS Susano'o's swords will be bigger than that and Kurama alot smaller than Juubi.




> Naruto's Chakra Cloak is...well...pure Chakra. Fire is not going to hurt pure Chakra, just as it wouldn't hurt Susano'o.


This is completely unsubstantiated.

Amaterasu devoured a Katon, a jutsu made of pseudo sage chakra(sasuke was empowering it with Juuin).


----------



## Rocky (Oct 5, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> From their recent portrayal, it pretty much is.




No, it isn't. 

Sasuke needs to coat his Jutsu with natural energy to even be effective. The Juin has always been a lower version of Sage Mode. Sasuke using it now to be relevant in the fight doesn't automatically make it equal to SM.



> Naruto's Bijuudama is nowhere as fast as Sasuke's arrow.
> Arrow doesn't have a charge time.




Then how did they fire them at the exact same time?




> No one tried to interrupt it.
> Absence of evidence is not evidence.
> But we've seen on occasion that other bijuudama were interrupted or defended against. There are countless examples.




There's two. Pain interrupted Rokubi Naruto's, and Minato interrupted Kurama's. Naruto's Bijuudama has a lesser charge time than those two. Sauce & Naruto will fire their attacks at the exact same time just as in canon, and by feats......Bijuu Bomb blows through an arrow that was stopped by half dead Obito's Chakra rod.



> And PS Susano'o's swords will be bigger than that and Kurama alot smaller than Juubi




Perfect Susano'o and Kurama are the same size. Reread Hashirama and Madara's battle.




> This is completely unsubstantiated.
> 
> Amaterasu devoured a Katon, a jutsu made of pseudo sage chakra(sasuke was empowering it with Juuin).




Naruto's Chakra avatar is more comparable to Susano'o then to a Katon Fireball. Naruto can just block the Jutsu with his tails like he's done with every other attack (including fire), and then proceed to disperse the tails to get rid of the flames.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Oct 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Perfect Susano'o and Kurama are the same size. Reread Hashirama and Madara's battle.



PS is actually bigger. Madara didn't use his legged PS during his battle with Hashirama. 



As you can see, it clearly has no legs. Not to mention it's not even stabilized.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 5, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> PS is actually bigger. Madara didn't use his legged PS during his battle with Hashirama.
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, it clearly has no legs. Not to mention it's not even stabilized.


Though the tails of Kurama are as tall as Perfect Susanoo's full form Prince.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> So once again, are you asserting that *this TBB* won't do any damage to PS?


No, and the feats of PS supports such.



> And are you asserting that *this TBB* is weaker than *this TBB.*


I'm asserting that the later failed miserably to damage PS, and there's nothing to suggest that the former would do any better.




> yes how the heck do you think it bltized BM Naruto and Bee.


It did? This is not blitzing.

The Juubi hardly moved from it's original position, it doesn't need too considering it's size.



> - PS wasn't hit directly by that bijuudama it blocked the blast with its swords and took the explosion


(Seen this argument before, and it is just as weak now as it was back then)

The swords are composed of the same material as Susano'o right? I fail to see how such arguments, make a difference.



> - PS was in the process of leveling up while it took the blast which means any damage it would have sustained would have been repaired offpanel, thus if the bijuudama did damage PS we wouldn't expect to see anything unless the damage was extreme


Whose making assertions now?

TBB didn't manage to damage anything in the area. Neither Hashi, his "Mokuryuu", or Susano'o was damage by the attack in question, thus why oh why should one even entertain the argument above?



> so no, none of that is positive evidence that PS can take rapidfire bijuudamas without damage.


And you've produced nothing to suggest it couldn't.

Proof is a two way street.
Debating is a two way street.

You was to disprove something you need proof. You want to validate something you need proof.

A single TBB has failed miserably to scratch PS.
A single TBB has been tanked by far lesser individuals than PS.

Susano'o is designed to be an "Absolute" defense. PS, more so. Why oh why, is it so hard to comprehend that it's capable of tanking almost any variation of TBB. Especially Naruto's, whose own, hasn't managed to harm anyone or anything, outside of LANDSCAPE. 




> - exactly how does susanoo being an uchiha ninjutsu give it the ability to resist enton?  Just because?


Are you serious? Please note that the user of the enton in question and the user of the Susano'o in question, is one in the same.

Sasuke, himself, can make contact with his own enton.

Does that mean other characters are capable of doing such, as well.



> - oonoki and bee can touch ei through his shroud, enton attaching to ei's skin within his shroud doesn't mean anything about its ability to burn through Naruto's shroud.


What, what are you talking about?

I don't recall oonoki and Bee doing such, please support your points with actual evidence.

Amaterasu/Enton burns anything, mate. It manage to burn through fire, I'm quite confident it can burn through Naruto's shroud over time.



> If you want to assert that enton would interact the same with Nauto's shroud as it does with ei, you have a burden of proof to show how the shrouds are similar in their ability to block out attacks.


Burden of proof, A? Does Iphr0z3nI ever fail in that area?
Please read em and weed em, Amaterasu/Enton burns through ANYTHING.

Sasuke was the wielder of Amaterasu/Enton and Susano'o....
Sasuke has shown such control over the former, that he's able to make contact with the flames without igniting himself. Your rookie mistake was ignoring the the prowess that Sasuke has with Amaterasu/Enton.



> Since you haven't disputed the point that naruto just chakra arm cancels whatever part of his cloak is caught ablaze, then you agree that naruto deals with enton by doing that.


Don't need the dispute it, I flipped it.

Naruto's chakara canceling, makes Sasuke's job easier. Sasuke isn't going to be giving Naruto the breathing room to do "chakara cancel" anything, without severe consequences.

You're clearly not applying common sense, as if the only thing standing between Naruto and Sasuke's attack is a chakara wall, then removing such wall would implicate that they'res nothing standing between Naruto's body and sasuke's attacks.



> since the rest of your post only asserts does not make a comparison between sasuke's attacks and how well they would do against naruto's defenses, then it's basically just an irrelevant resume post.


Your post is full of assertions. Mr. "PS was in the process of leveling up while it took the blast which means any damage it would have sustained would have been repaired offpanel, thus if the bijuudama did damage PS we wouldn't expect to see anything unless the damage was extreme"

Have you validated a point yet? Where are you even on the score board at the moment?


[QUOTE\The juubi is a living being which is why enton troubled it so much, naruto's chakra cloak isn't it's merely a chakra construct.[/QUOTE]
See above. Enton/Amaterasu burns through anything.

[QUOTE\Naruto doesn't have to remove the enton as it poses no danger to his shroud due to its extremely slow burning feats against chakra constructs.[/QUOTE]
Yet, you still present the argument of chakara canceling? Looks like you don't even believe your own BS.



> nope, I've never stated that TBB damages susanoo because it blew up a mountain.


Don't have too, that's the only damage in which Naruto's variation has ever did.



> You didn't answer my question.  are you or are you not asserting that the god tree is pound for pound more durable than Kurama's tails?  If you aren't and if you aren't making an attempt to relate the durability of both structures, then your argument holds no water as a contruct being larger than another in no way means that destroying or cutting the larger = destroying or cutting the smaller.


Answer your own question. 

Are you asserting that Naruto's tails are more pound for pound more durable than this? If you are, then you have no proof and your assessment cannot be taken seriously. If you aren't then you lose the argument, here.(Either way Iphr0z3nI wins)

Naruto's tails didn't tank the Juubi's attack, they were lost in the process.

Sasuke's feat here indicates that he'll had no trouble hacking away at Naruto's defenses.



> When did TBB fail to destroy a mokuton jutsu? And how did the amount of Mokuton that the TBB fail to destroy compare to the amount of mokuton that PS/Sasuke destroyed?


Kurama's TBB, yes.


Kurama's TBB never destroyed jack shit, and this BRANCH OF THE SHINJU > Shoriyuu (in terms of size/thickness)

What's so hard to comprehend about the above?



> Unless you actually find a way of comparing the TBB to the Sword slash, you simply listing their generalized track record is irrelevant.


How about the failure of one to deal with Shoriyuu vs. the success of the other.

What I arbitrated previously and what I could validate via panel.



> Why would naruto defending with his tails = not being able to counterattack?  Does a TBB require naruto to not defend with his tails?  Does naruto require all of his tails to defend?


Again look at the picture.

Look how he performs TBB.


Again,Look how he defends with his tails

Look how he performs TBB

He defends with his tails by placing them in front/around his body, shielding his face and therefore his mouth in the process. TBB is performed by manifesting chakara from the mouth region, and the orb is protruding from the area in question. Hence he cannot defend with his tails and charge TBB at the same time. 

[QUOTE\Except we've seen in the last chapter that the TBB explodes away from naruto when he fires it, or we've seen in other chapters that giant TBB carries the construct that it hits for miles before exploding.  So nope.[/QUOTE]
And the one in which Naruto's fired was extremely small, of no threat to a PS, right?



> really?  So you are asserting that Chou oodama FRS wouldn't scratch PS?  Or that multiple Giant rasengans wouldn't scratch PS?


You're asserting that FRS of any kind could scratch a smaller Susano'o?

Smaller Susano'o has tanked nukes as well. FRS was tanked by a 50% Kurama. The same 100% in which PS was utilized to shield. 50% Kurama also tanked multiple giant rasengans as well.

What feats does any of the above have to believe it is capable of scratching PS, whose size is on par with a 100%?

You talk about making assertions, but you make several here.

A. Naruto is capable of such feats, given he's never.....And the manga doesn't allude to him ever being......

B. That the maneuvers in question would be effective.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 5, 2013)

> well then if you are not asserting anything in that regards then you've got no argument against naruto charging a TBB while guarding with his tails.


I do, see above.




> How does the tails covering naruto's head = him not being able to charge a TBB?  When he charges the one against neo pain or the one against obito, the *TBB stays tiny and compacted in his mouth* and only grows massive* the moment he fires it.**
> *


See above.

In most cases it's not being charged in it's mouth.

Though I supposed he's probably capable of doing both, hence I'll concede this point. 

However he'd still not be able to fire it without removing his tails, thus creating a transition between offense and defense.



> A juubilaser that is as wide as 50% Kurama is much MUCH more directed than a PS slash that has an arc that encompasses multiple mountains.  The rest of your post has nothing to do with naruto needing to defend with more tails.


It was, or is that a baseless assertion on your part?

You post little to no argument as to why it's more directed, only suggesting that it is.





> this has nothing to do with the argument that my response was directed at.  Go back and reread what I responded to.  Failure to do so is a rescencion of your initial point.


LMAO, what?

Please note that it's your job, not mine, to clarify what you mean.





ueharakk said:


> Yet Naruto's cloak has 13 limbs that can be used for attack or defense.  Naruto's cloak can actually use all the ninjutsu that naruto himself can use.  Naruto's cloak has claws and teeth.


Naruto doesn't have many ninjutsu, and Naruto's cloak has shown to be only a major factor on the defensive end.

Manifesting claws and teeth are cool, but not on the lvl of producing swords and arrows.

Naruto's claws and teeth do not have the feats of a Susano'o sword, or arrow.



> So now you'd have to argue that sasuke's susanoo is advantages in versatility outweight naruto's advantages in versitility.


No, I don't. Your original argument was a assumption, and is not supported by actual facts.




> So since you havent' given an argument against naruto's ability to use clones or the clone's ability to use ninjutsu to aid naruto, then you concede then that naruto has this ability.


Don't have too, the manga doesn't support it.
Don't have too, it's a none factor regardless.



> Not if they are hand delivered to Sasuke's susanoo, or fired from multiple different directions if the clones are in the chakra tails.


What? How do you supposed they are going to do that? Are you aware that Sasuke's enton attacks will be on such a scale that Naruto would be hard press to connect any FRS attacks? Are you aware that Sasuke's PS will be on such a scale that Naruto's antics here will be pointless.

I fail to see how the above makes a difference. I fail to see how the above is a good argument to begin with.(What Iphr0z3nI can and can't counter, shouldn't be the means in which you post ideas by Mr.)



> irrelevant unless you show how the swords deal with the arms


But you haven't shown much of anything.

Outside of Naruto being able to charge TBB inside his mouth, you haven't produced much evidence for anything. 



> those arms are just like naruto's KCM chakra arms and thus have their abilities unless you want to give some kind of counterargument.


I don't have to give a counterargument, as the manga doesn't support your argument.

Naruto's BM has never done the feats you're citing and isn't hinted too.

Please oh please, take a course on debating as you aren't very good at it. You have to actually do what you are requesting from others.



> because sasuke's and PS swords don't do anything unless they are swung.  *Are you asserting that sasuke can slice through a chakra are by simply shape manipulating his enton?*  If so, by what reasoning?


Sasuke's sword stems from his chakara orb. An orb seen this chapter.

And yes the bold is exactly what I'm asserting by reasoning of this. Sasuke's magatama's still retained the properties of Madara and Itachi's own, while applying the enton property.

By reasoning of this. Sasuke's projectiles still retains the properties of a physical attack while simultaneously still being capable of applying enton flames.

Do you have to even ask? Iphr0z3nI always delivers. 




> Claws are only additions to the fingers of the hand.  By what reasoning logic or evidence do you suggest that having claws would not allow one to properly grip something?


Much like they are too a regular fox, oh wait.

I think you misquoted my point, as said naruto's arms haven't showcased the ability to retrain something on the level of PS.



> like usual, none of this has anything to do with the post you've quoted which asks you to back up your argument with reasoning.


It does, as it has something to do with the way you present your points.

Please don't be a hypocrite, please oh please, if you're to request something from Iphr0z3nI, strive to do it from yourself, first.

You haven't backed any of your arguments with reason, and the primary "reasons" behind most of your assessment is that "You don't think Iphr0z3nI" can counter it.



> I've just told you what I don't understand about that statement.  Just tell me what you are trying to assert by bringing up the fact that enton burns for 7 days while a bijuudama doesnt.


It's really simple.

Bijuudama isn't a seven day attack, once it's deployed IT'S EFFECTS ARE IMMEDIATE, and if it fails it fails. Enton on the other hand applies it's effects over time, and does what TBB can't, provide a distraction.

Naruto being tagged by Enton has to worry about removing it.
Sasuke being tagged by TBB only needs to worry about tanking the explosion, IN THE WORST CASE SCENERIO.(Catching it and deflecting it, has been done)



> So are you asserting that the god tree is pound for pound denser than naruto's *chakra limbs*?


Please stop asking stupid questions.

Yest, WTF do you think I'm alluding too?



> If so, then are you asserting that if the juubi fired its laser at the god tree, it wouldn't even be able to make a crater in the tree the size of sasuke's susanoo?


What, this doesn't even make since.

Please provide a more thorough explanation for your points.




> just baseless assertions.  When i call your arguments boneheaded, I actually show why they are.  And because I've done that, now I've forced you into saying that the god tree is pound for pound more durable than Naruto's chakra cloak.


And your assessment is even more baseless.

When you call my arguments anything, you don't take the time to show anything, the same effort in which can be seen in the rest of your post.

How do you contradict yourself? How do you dub "ones opinion on your shit" irrelevant to your point, yet think your own opinion on his shit, is.

You're light work Ueharakk, hence is why you come up short in every one of our debates.

And you haven't forced anything, note that you can't even keep up with your own points.

"So are you asserting that the god tree is pound for pound denser than naruto's *chakra limbs*"

Earlier you were discussing the Chakara's Tree limbs to Naruto's limbs, right? Thus why is your point here referring to the ENTIRE CLOAK?  I don't think Sasuke is capable of slicing through Naruto's ENTIRE cloak with one stroke, but I do see him doing quite well against it. Especially since Naruto's going to be helping him out by removing enton infected parts, right?


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 5, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> No, and the feats of PS supports such.


What feat of PS is a positive argument that it can take a Super bijuudama without getting damaged?  



IpHr0z3nI said:


> I'm asserting that the later failed miserably to damage PS, *and there's nothing to suggest that the former would do any better*.


So you believe that the size and power of a bijuudama has absolutely nothing to do with its ability to damage a target?  So are you saying that if someone tanks a chou mini bijuudama does that mean they can tank a Super juubidama?




IpHr0z3nI said:


> It did? This is not blitzing.
> 
> The Juubi hardly moved from it's original position, it doesn't need too considering it's size.


*The juubi started moving from all the way there*.  Don't make me refute the blatantly obvious.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> (Seen this argument before, and it is just as weak now as it was back then)
> 
> The swords are composed of the same material as Susano'o right? I fail to see how such arguments, make a difference.


And the swords were gone, PS now has new swords in addition to the fact that the swords instantly regenerate as seen when PS placed them in the bijuudamas.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Whose making assertions now?


We both are making assertions.  Please don't make me refute the blatantly obvious.  



IpHr0z3nI said:


> TBB didn't manage to damage anything in the area. Neither Hashi, his "Mokuryuu", or Susano'o was damage by the attack in question, thus why oh why should one even entertain the argument above?


*Before the bijuudama, mokuryu, mokujin and a battlefield of giant mokuton surrounds the area.* *After the bijuudama, all of that is gone.*  Again, Don't make me refute the blatantly obvious.

and since you haven't attacked the argument that ps was in the process of leveling up, then you concede then that due to it leveling up, we wouldn't expect any damage from the bijuudama to be seen.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> And you've produced nothing to suggest it couldn't.
> 
> Proof is a two way street.
> Debating is a two way street.
> ...


Already refuted your argument about the a PS that's in the process of leveling up taking an indirect hit from a bijuudama =/= it tanking a bijuudama with no damage.  

Please support the bolded with evidence.

What susanoo being designed for is irrelevant, in order to compare how well it accomplishes its purpose against a bijuudama you'd have to compare its defensive ability to the attack power of the bijuudama.  

We know that an equivalent of 11 sword damas is what it takes to blow open PS, rapidfire bijuudama is 5 bijuudamas, thus that's going to damage PS if it can only take 11 sword damas unless you want to argue that 5 bijuudamas are incomparably weaker than 11 sword damas.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Are you serious? Please note that the user of the enton in question and the user of the Susano'o in question, is one in the same.


are you serious?  Does bijuudama being a bijuu power mean bijuus are immune to bijuudamas?



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Sasuke, himself, can make contact with his own enton.
> 
> Does that mane other characters are capable of doing such, as well.


you don't know if he's touching enton, look at all his other enton feats specifically the one where we get a closeup of his hand when he combines it with FRS.  Does he touch enton there? Nope.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> What, what are you talking about?
> 
> I don't recall oonoki and Bee doing such, please support your points with actual evidence.


*Bee touching Ei* *through* *his shroud*,  *Oonoki touching Ei through his shroud.*  once again, do not make me refute the blatantly obvious.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Amaterasu/Enton burns anything, mate. It manage to burn through fire, I'm quite confident it can burn through Naruto's shroud over time.


unless you are saying that naruto's shroud is just as durable as fire, then enton burning through fire doesn't mean anything in that regard.   Oh and how long would it take enton to burn through naruto's shroud?



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Burden of proof, A? Does Iphr0z3nI ever fail in that area?
> Please read em and weed em, Amaterasu/Enton burns through ANYTHING.


Not only was zetsu not sure about that statement since he adds "oh so i've heard" but he's the same guy who said amaterasu was unavoidable which is a no limits statement that was proven false.  So nope.  and even if it could burn through anything, it has nothing to do with how long it takes to burn through something, all it means is that it would eventually do so.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Sasuke was the wielder of Amaterasu/Enton and Susano'o....
> Sasuke has shown such control over the former, that he's able to make contact with the flames without igniting himself. Your rookie mistake was ignoring the the prowess that Sasuke has with Amaterasu/Enton.


Since this has nothing to do with how amaterasu would interact with naruto's shroud in the same manner it interacts with Ei's shroud, then it's irrelevant and you concede then that you don't have an argument for why both shrouds would interact the same.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Don't need the dispute it, I flipped it.
> 
> Naruto's chakara canceling, makes Sasuke's job easier. Sasuke isn't going to be giving Naruto the breathing room to do "chakara cancel" anything, without severe consequences.
> 
> You're clearly not applying common sense, as if the only thing standing between Naruto and Sasuke's attack is a chakara wall, then removing such wall would implicate that they'res nothing standing between Naruto's body and sasuke's attacks.


So again, you do concede that cancelling his chakra constructs would cancel the amaterasu that's attached to them.  Good.

Naruto doesn't need to cancel his entire chakra wall since he has 9 tails to make that wall, and he simply reforms the tail immediately after canceling them.  So nope, there's no opening for Sasuke to take advantage of as he doesn't even need half of his tails to defend against sasukes attacks if his 6 of his BM tails are enough to block the juubi laser.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Your post is full of assertions. Mr. "PS was in the process of leveling up while it took the blast which means any damage it would have sustained would have been repaired offpanel, thus if the bijuudama did damage PS we wouldn't expect to see anything unless the damage was extreme"
> 
> Have you validated a point yet? Where are you even on the score board at the moment?


Since you haven't refuted that your post was just a resume post that hasn't made a direct comparison, then you concede that it was.

In addition to that, what you've just quoted isn't an assertion, it's an argument.  the assertion is that: we wouldn't expect to see PS damaged even if it was hurt by the bijuudama.  The reasoning for that assertion is that PS was leveling up offpanel and when susanoo levels up, it becomes more complete than it was before. 



IpHr0z3nI said:


> See above. Enton/Amaterasu burns through anything.


since you haven't attacked the argument that enton only bothered the juubi more than a bijuudama because the juubi was a living being, then you concede then that it was only because the juubi was a living being and thus enton doing such is irrelevant to its power compared to a bijuudama against a non-living being.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yet, you still present the argument of chakara canceling? Looks like you don't even believe your own BS.


Wait, so are you asserting that Naruto CAN'T cancel individual parts of his shroud?  If so, please back up that assertion with an argument.  

As for why naruto can do so, he's already shown that he can partially manifest his BM avatar and can easily cancel those parts in addition to and that the tails of the BM avatar being able to turn into chakra arms which we know he can simply cancel and reform.  and finally he being able to cancel his chakra tails after blocking obito's katon with it.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Don't have too, that's the only damage in which Naruto's variation has ever did.


Well since you haven't attacked the argument that I have said that because bijuudama destroys mountains it damages PS, then you concede then that I have not said that.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 5, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Answer your own question.
> 
> Are you asserting that Naruto's tails are more pound for pound more durable than this? If you are, then you have no proof and your assessment cannot be taken seriously. If you aren't then you lose the argument, here.(Either way Iphr0z3nI wins)


You are the one who made the argument that because Sasuke can cut through the god tree, then he cuts through naruto's tails.  The burden of proof is on YOU to show that the god tree is just as durable as Naruto's tails or that cutting through the god tree is equally as difficult or harder than it would be to cut through naruto's tails.  



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Naruto's tails didn't tank the Juubi's attack, they were lost in the process.


who said they tanked the juubi's attack?



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Sasuke's feat here indicates that he'll had no trouble hacking away at Naruto's defenses.


that's an assertion that you are trying to argue for and until you do it's baseless.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Kurama's TBB, yes.


that only shows that a PS slash possesses more power than the mere traveling force of a bijuudama.  When the bijuudama actually explodes, it wipes out mokuryu, mokujin and the entire battlefield worth of mokuton.  PS on the other hand hasn't done anything even close to that kind of damage to mokuton by itself, it couldn't even destroy one mokujin despite getting off more than one PS slashes.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> *Kurama's TBB never destroyed jack shit*, and this BRANCH OF THE SHINJU > Shoriyuu (in terms of size/thickness)
> 
> What's so hard to comprehend about the above?


the bolded has been easily falsifed already, the unbolded pales in comparison to wiping out an entire battlefield of giant mokuton, mokuryu and mokujin while PS by itself can't even defeat one mokujin.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> How about the failure of one to deal with Shoriyuu vs. the success of the other.
> 
> What I arbitrated previously and what I could validate via panel.


Again, that only shows that sasuke's PS slash is more powerful than the traveling force of a bijuudama which I don't think anyone is trying to argue.  So nope.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Again look at the picture.
> 
> Look how he performs TBB.
> 
> ...


In order for your argument to be relevant, you'd have to argue that the space between his tails and mouth would be too small to fit a charging TBB in and have to argue that naruto has to curl his tails up into a ball and place them as close to his face as he did against Kurama in order to defend himself from sasuke's attacks.

I've already showed you that he has more than enough space within his guard to create a TBB as seen when he charged it against Tobi and the inks.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> And the one in which Naruto's fired was extremely small, of no threat to a PS, right?


Since this has nothing to do with the argument that Naruto's TBB explode outwardly, then you agree that naruto is in no danger of his explosion if he launches one at PS. And since you haven't addressed my argument about the beast bomb carrying susanoo for miles before it explodes, then you also agree that even if it doesn't explode outwardly, naruto doesn't get caught in the blast.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> You're asserting that FRS of any kind could scratch a smaller Susano'o?
> 
> Smaller Susano'o has tanked nukes as well. FRS was tanked by a 50% Kurama. The same 100% in which PS was utilized to shield. 50% Kurama also tanked multiple giant rasengans as well.


Tenpen chii is a high AoE attack, not a highly damaging attack to singular targets which is why the entire alliance didn't even take heavy damage from those attacks despite only being protected by the kyuubi shroud.  Unless of course you want to assert that each cloaked member of the shinobi alliance has far more durability than Sandaime Raikage.

50% kurama didn't tank FRS, the attack layed him out and incapacitated him for almost a full chapter.  He couldn't even stand after taking the hit.  PS utilized to shield Kurama simply means that a bijuudama was capable of inflicting damage on Kurama not that PS is any more durable than Kurama.

So none of the scans you've given shows how PS or any susanoo can take a FRS without getting damaged.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> What feats does any of the above have to believe it is capable of scratching PS, whose size is on par with a 100%?
> 
> You talk about making assertions, but you make several here.
> 
> ...


Lets see the feats that allow Naruto's FRS to do damage to PS:

V3 Sasuke's susanoo was blown open by danzou's fuuton.  Even a base FRS is on a totally different level than Danzou's fuuton.  KCM or SM FRS >>>>>> Base FRS.  So a FRS just erases a V3 susanoo, and unless you want to assert that a V4 susanoo is hundreds of times more durable than a V3 (something you'd have to give an argument for) then a FRS is more than capable of doing very high damage to it. 

Then there's the fact that FRS cut through the juubi's tails.

And then we have Chou oodama FRS which is larger and thus completely envelope PS in its wind sphere.

So that's the reasoning for why FRS does damage PS.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 5, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> You post little to no argument as to why it's more directed, only suggesting that it is.


If given you the exact reasoning as to why a juubilaser is more directed that a PS slash: because the AoE of the laser is far smaller than the AoE of the slash as the slash is spread out across an entire arc while the laser only does damage to the surface area of what it touches which would be roughly the size of a bijuu. 

If you don't agree with this reasoning, show why.  If you can't then it means you can't formulate an argument for that and thus it would be u conceding this point.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> LMAO, what?
> 
> Please note that it's your job, not mine, to clarify what you mean.


I have clarified what I meant: which is that you are now arguing a completely different point from what I responded to.  And thus all you'd have to do is go back and reread what you initially asserted.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Naruto doesn't have many ninjutsu, and *Naruto's cloak has shown to be only a major factor on the defensive end.*
> 
> Manifesting claws and teeth are cool, but not on the lvl of producing swords and arrows.
> 
> Naruto's claws and teeth do not have the feats of a Susano'o sword, or arrow.


bolded is irrelevant to what the cloak is capable of doing which is its versatility.
naruto doesn't having many ninjutsu doesn't mean that with his limited ninjutsu, his BM is more versatile than Sasuke's susanoo

And none of that shows sasuke's susanoo is more versatile.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> No, I don't. Your original argument was a assumption, and is not supported by actual facts.


yes you do.  You were the one who asserted that Sasuke's susanoo was more versatile than Naruto's BM, the burden of proof is on you to give an argument that leads to that conclusion.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Don't have too, the manga doesn't support it.
> Don't have too, it's a none factor regardless.


Since those are simply assertions supported by no arguments then you concede that naruto can use clones who can in turn use ninjutsu while in the BM avatar.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> What? How do you supposed they are going to do that? Are you aware that Sasuke's enton attacks will be on such a scale that Naruto would be hard press to connect any FRS attacks? Are you aware that Sasuke's PS will be on such a scale that Naruto's antics here will be pointless.


I've already addressed those arguments.  Hand delivered FRS negate any enton interfearance.  PS does get damaged by Chou oodama FRS if a V3 susaoo was blown open by a far weaker fuuton.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> I fail to see how the above makes a difference. I fail to see how the above is a good argument to begin with.(What Iphr0z3nI can and can't counter, shouldn't be the means in which you post ideas by Mr.)


I've given you my reasoning, if you fail to see how the above makes a difference show or give reasoning why you fail to see that, else it's a baseless assertion on your part.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> But you haven't shown much of anything.
> 
> Outside of Naruto being able to charge TBB inside his mouth, you haven't produced much evidence for anything.


Well since you haven't shown how the swords deal with the arms, then you rescind your simple point that "swords>arms".  



IpHr0z3nI said:


> I don't have to give a counterargument, as the manga doesn't support your argument.
> 
> Naruto's BM has never done the feats you're citing and isn't hinted too.
> 
> Please oh please, take a course on debating as you aren't very good at it. You have to actually do what you are requesting from others.


Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.  BM Naruto not doing those feats is in no way some kind of positive argument that he can't do those feats.  I've given you the positive argument as to why those arms are just like KCM arms and thus should be awarded those feats.  Unless you can errect some kind of counterargument to show why they WOULDN'T be able to to do so, then it's a concession on your part.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Sasuke's sword stems from his chakara orb. An orb seen this chapter.
> 
> And yes the bold is exactly what I'm asserting by reasoning of this. Sasuke's magatama's still retained the properties of Madara and Itachi's own, while applying the enton property.
> 
> ...


Sasuke needs his arms both to swing his sword and fire his arrows regardless if they retain the physical properties of susanoo swords or arrows.  Thus how would sasuke simply making a sword he can't swing or an arrow that he can't fire cut through chakra arms?  

I can see him being able to fire enton magatamas since those don't require him to use his hands, but considering enton magatama couldn't even pierce white zetsu clones, I doubt they'd do anything to chakra arms that can block the juubi's laserdama.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Much like they are too a regular fox, oh wait.
> 
> I think you misquoted my point, as said naruto's arms haven't showcased the ability to retrain something on the level of PS.


Unless you want to assert that regular fox's can perform hand seals or grab mokuton or objects with their hands then restricting kurama to the feats of a normal fox is just flat out false.

Naruto's chakra tails are even larger than PS's own arms in addition to the fact that we saw that when both chakra arm and susanoo arms are the same size,* Naruto's can restrain Susanoo's even by catching the sword,* it doesn't even have to grab susanoo's arm.

If you don't agree with that reasoning, you have a burden of proof to show why chakra arms would NOT be able to do so.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> It's really simple.
> 
> Bijuudama isn't a seven day attack, once it's deployed IT'S EFFECTS ARE IMMEDIATE, and if it fails it fails. Enton on the other hand applies it's effects over time, and does what TBB can't, provide a distraction.
> 
> ...


sure I can agree with this, but it doesn't really matter though.  enton has some advantages over the bijuudama, but the bijuudama has advantages over enton and to analyze how they play a role in the fight, you'd have to compare how naruto would take enton and how sasuke would take a bijuudama and how much poewr sasuke can put into his enton strikes and how much power naruto can put into his bijuudamas.  



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Please stop asking stupid questions.
> 
> Yest, WTF do you think I'm alluding too?
> 
> ...


If you are asserting that the god tree is pound for pound just as durable as BM Naruto's chakra tails, then that means that if the juubi fired is laser at the tree, it would only remove an amount of wood equal to the size of 6 of BM Naruto's 9 tails.  Sasuke's susanoo is larger than 6 of naruto's 9 tails, so it wouldn't even remove enough wood to fit sasuke's susanoo in it.

Another way of putting this is that if Naruto's tails were just as large as that branch that sasuke cut off, then sasuke would cut off naruto's tail with similar ease.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> And your assessment is even more baseless.
> 
> When you call my arguments anything, you don't take the time to show anything, the same effort in which can be seen in the rest of your post.
> 
> ...


basically all of these statements are baseless and actually falsified if one were to read the discussion between you and me.

And in addition to forcing you to say that the god tree is pound for pound just as durable as Naruto's chakra tails, i've now forced you to say that the size and explosion of a bijuudama is completely irrelevant to the amount of damage it inflicts on its target.


----------



## Psp123789 (Oct 5, 2013)

Why can't naruto just roar the flames off of him?


----------



## Gibbs (Oct 5, 2013)

How about Sasuke runsout of stamina within 4 minutes trying to keep perfect susano'o up.


----------



## Lurko (Oct 6, 2013)

That's very possible and a lot better.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> What feat of PS is a positive argument that it can take a Super bijuudama without getting damaged?


What's super bijuudama done? Please oh please, remind me.





> So you believe that the size and power of a bijuudama has absolutely nothing to do with its ability to damage a target?  So are you saying that if someone tanks a chou mini bijuudama does that mean they can tank a Super juubidama?


That's a shaky issue.

Which is bigger. The Juubi's bijuudama, or Naruto + Bee's here? But the former has a statement dictating it to be on a different level than that of any Bijuudama.

The size of ones bijuudama may indicate power among the same user, but this stemmed from a ying and yang Kurama.

There's nothing to suggest that a Bijuudama from a 50% Kurama is stronger than one from a 100% Kurama.



> *The juubi started moving from all the way there*.  Don't make me refute the blatantly obvious.


Well it looks like you are going to have to put a bit more effort in your argument buddy, because I don't see it.



> And the swords were gone, PS now has new swords in addition to the fact that the swords instantly regenerate as seen when PS placed them in the bijuudamas.


Lol, they were? Stop me when I'm getting close.

The panel doesn't support what you are arbitrating, as it doesn't support your previous point. 



> We both are making assertions.  Please don't make me refute the blatantly obvious.


Except I can support most of mine.

Outside of Naruto being able to charge Bijudama within it's mouth, what have you validated?

The Juubi's speed? Nope.
Bijuudama hurting PS in any shape form or fashion?

Your assertion, such as naruto being able to do such and such, or particular maneuver being effective against PS, is all unsupported conjecture. 

Your argument in regards to Naruto is cool, but please validate it with an argument that incorporates the actual manga.  




> *Before the bijuudama, mokuryu, mokujin and a battlefield of giant mokuton surrounds the area.* *After the bijuudama, all of that is gone.*  Again, Don't make me refute the blatantly obvious.


All of it was gone, you sure about that.

All of it was gone, yet the panel showcases Susano'o having to deal with Hashi's wood variates. Not that the mokuryuu was still in tact until it was sliced in half here. 

Don't make you refute the obvious, yet you have a history of lying in your lines. Mr. Naruto destroyed Mokuryuu here.

"Don't make you refute the blatantly obvious:" yet, you're the only one one presenting such radical ideas, usually. 



> and since you haven't attacked the argument that ps was in the process of leveling up, then you concede then that due to it leveling up, we wouldn't expect any damage from the bijuudama to be seen.


Don't have to attack something that's not supported.

It's another baseless, BS, safe face argument by ueharakk. 
It's an "assertion" that's not supported by a shred of panel. It's an "assertion" in which YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR VALIDATING, SINCE YOU ARE THE ONE TRYING TO PRESENT THE POINT.

Please know your position in a discussion.



> Already refuted your argument about the a PS that's in the process of leveling up taking an indirect hit from a bijuudama =/= it tanking a bijuudama with no damage.


Refuted it with what? A baseless argument in which you can't support?
Refuted it with what? A ueharakk hypothesis?

Please oh please, learn to debate properly. To refute something you have to provide evidence that validates such, much like you provided evidence that showcases Naruto charging TBB in his mouth.



> Please support the bolded with evidence.


Because you are supporting your assessment with evidence?

Again for Iphr0z3nI, you don't even need to ask.

Iphr0z3nI isn't like you, we're not equal sided. How many times do I have to show and prove this to you.



> What susanoo being designed for is irrelevant, in order to compare how well it accomplishes its purpose against a bijuudama you'd have to compare its defensive ability to the attack power of the bijuudama.


I love how you are over using my "irrelevant" lines.(You weren't doing that initially, mate)

But I agree being a shield is irrelevant, as that's implicated by it's showcasing. However you still have the up hill battle of proving TBB is the answer to PS. Manga doesn't support such, and TBB has a history of COMING UP SHORT.



> We know that an equivalent of 11 sword damas is what it takes to blow open PS, rapidfire bijuudama is 5 bijuudamas, thus that's going to damage PS if it can only take 11 sword damas unless you want to argue that 5 bijuudamas are incomparably weaker than 11 sword damas.


What, what are you talking about?

It was Hashi's jutsu that was implied to have blow open, once again you arbitrate something not supported by the manga.



> are you serious?  Does bijuudama being a bijuu power mean bijuus are immune to bijuudamas?


Are you serious? Does any Bijuudama user possess the same control over enton that Sasuke does.

This isn't even a good counterpart, you are going to get bodied if you go down this road.



> you don't know if he's touching enton, look at all his other enton feats specifically the one where we get a closeup of his hand when he combines it with FRS.  Does he touch enton there? Nope.


What? Please stop playing with full grown posters, you sound just awful.

He's clearly making contact with his enton here. Such is not even debatable.



> *Bee touching Ei* *through* *his shroud*,  *Oonoki touching Ei through his shroud.*  once again, do not make me refute the blatantly obvious.


Once again, you make an excuses for the panel not exactly supporting what you are trying to arbitrate. Touching the raikage's shroud = touching A? I guess the Juubi touched Naruto through his shroud here, as well right?



> unless you are saying that naruto's shroud is just as durable as fire, then enton burning through fire doesn't mean anything in that regard.   Oh and how long would it take enton to burn through naruto's shroud?


It does if you are able to put two and two together without Iphr0z3nI giving you the "blatantly obvious" 

Fire is ambient chakara much like Naruto's shroud, thus burning one implicates it's capable of burning the other. 



> Not only was zetsu not sure about that statement since he adds "oh so i've heard" but he's the same guy who said amaterasu was unavoidable which is a no limits statement that was proven false.  So nope.  and even if it could burn through anything, it has nothing to do with how long it takes to burn through something, all it means is that it would eventually do so.


The "So I heard" is supported by Amaterasu's feats, outside of Obito's jutsu what has it failed to burn?

Please note that Zetsu reinforces the statement."They continue to burn until the target is completely eradicated"

And note that it wasn't zetsu who hyped Amaterasu to be unavoidable, that was Sasuke.(How many times are you going to get proven wrong by Iphr0z3nI, we should really start keeping score, A?)

I don't care how long it takes to burn, it's presence alone would put pressure on Naruto.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 6, 2013)

> Since this has nothing to do with how amaterasu would interact with naruto's shroud in the same manner it interacts with Ei's shroud, then it's irrelevant and you concede then that you don't have an argument for why both shrouds would interact the same.


This has to do with your initial point, which attempts to make Sasuke's interaction with Enton/Amaterasu universal, opposed to unique.

Stop dubbing things irrelevant just because you don't/can't deal with them, stop dubbing things irrelevant simply because you can't keep track of your own arguments.



> So again, you do concede that cancelling his chakra constructs would cancel the amaterasu that's attached to them.  Good.


So you concede that Amaterasu/Enton will burn Naruto's cloak, hence forcing him to take action.

So you concede that Naruto would be at a disadvantage against Sasuke?
Naruto dispelling his cloak, means death on this stage.



> Naruto doesn't need to cancel his entire chakra wall since he has 9 tails to make that wall, and he simply reforms the tail immediately after canceling them.  So nope, there's no opening for Sasuke to take advantage of as he doesn't even need half of his tails to defend against sasukes attacks if his 6 of his BM tails are enough to block the juubi laser.


No, Naruto would need to dispel any portion of his shroud in which was affected, tails, face, torso, leg, thigh all of them are potential targets for Sasuke's attacks.

Reforms the tail immediately, you make the assumption that only tails would be affected. You make the assumption that Naruto would be able to isolate the flames enough to do such. You make the assumption that he'll have time do all that while Sasuke is attacking.

He doesn't need half a tail to block Sasuke's attacks? Another baseless assertion by you, I take.



> In addition to that, what you've just quoted isn't an assertion, it's an argument.  the assertion is that: we wouldn't expect to see PS damaged even if it was hurt by the bijuudama.  The reasoning for that assertion is that PS was leveling up offpanel and when susanoo levels up, it becomes more complete than it was before.


It's an assertion, a baseless one at that.

You are hinting something not very supported. 



> since you haven't attacked the argument that enton only bothered the juubi more than a bijuudama because the juubi was a living being, then you concede then that it was only because the juubi was a living being and thus enton doing such is irrelevant to its power compared to a bijuudama against a non-living being.


I don't have to attack everything, as you are so quick to utilize. Some things are entirely "Irrelevant" to the overall discussion.

TBB hasn't done much to Susano'o, thus a comparison is irrelevant.



> Wait, so are you asserting that Naruto CAN'T cancel individual parts of his shroud?  If so, please back up that assertion with an argument.


Wait, so are you asserting that you cannot keep up with long arugments.

Note that my argument here served to debunk your initial argument of Amaterasu/Enton not being able to burn Kurama's cloak.

I never confirmed or denied your chakara canceling argument, and you know such, hence your action here. I simply argued that doing such would make Sasuke's job easier. Note Ueharakk, that Iphr0z3nI has flipped the argument upon you.

If you want to suggest he's capable of doing the in question, than you have to argue against the idea of Sasuke using such to his advantage. Note that earlier you tried to minimize the potential of Enton in this ecounter, by minimizing it's potential AOE to Naruto'[s tails..  



> As for why naruto can do so, he's already shown that he can partially manifest his BM avatar and can easily cancel those parts in addition to and that the tails of the BM avatar being able to turn into chakra arms which we know he can simply cancel and reform.  and finally he being able to cancel his chakra tails after blocking obito's katon with it.


Partial transformations are cool, but how do they help Naruto here?

Naruto isn't fighting against a smaller scale opponent, he's fighting another chakara construct, one that incorporates enton into all of his attacks. Naruto chakara canceling is rather inconvenient, and you know it as well.
Hence is why you are limiting it's effects to just things that can be canceled.

If your argument is that Naruto needs to do all things things to win: Chakara canceling, favorable location for Enton,......................



> Well since you haven't attacked the argument that I have said that because bijuudama destroys mountains it damages PS, then you concede then that I have not said that.


I haven't? Then what exactly is your definition of attacking?


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 6, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> What's super bijuudama done? Please oh please, remind me.


you said that the feats of PS support the assertion that a super bijuudama does no damage to it.  The burden of proof is on you to show the power of a super bijuudama and show why PS would be able to take such an attack without taking any damage.    If you can't fullfil that burden of proof, then your statement that 'the feats of PS supports that assertion' is baseless.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> That's a shaky issue.
> 
> Which is bigger. The Juubi's bijuudama, or Naruto + Bee's here? But the former has a statement dictating it to be on a different level than that of any Bijuudama.
> 
> The size of ones bijuudama may indicate power among the same user, but this stemmed from a ying and yang Kurama.


so you've shown that the size of a bijuudama from one being is not necessarily indicative of how its power relates to a bijuudama from another being.  Now you have to show that this would apply to 50% Kurama and 100% Kurama and their bijuudama.

Because I can show you that when both BM Naruto and Bee fire bijuudamas of the exact same size, *all their bijuudamas are equal in power.*

I can also show you how a bijuudama from the 7 tails is no more powerful than a bijuudama from the 2 tails when both *are the exact same size.*




IpHr0z3nI said:


> There's nothing to suggest that a Bijuudama from a 50% Kurama is stronger than one from a 100% Kurama.


um yes there is, and that's the fact that BM Naruto can make bijuudamas incomparably larger than the ones that 100% Kurama has shown at VoTe.  If you want to argue that a bijuudama of the same size from 50% Kurama and 100% Kurama aren't roughly equal, you have to give some kind of positive argument for that.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Well it looks like you are going to have to put a bit more effort in your argument buddy, because I don't see it.


Since none of this addresses my argument about the juubi moving a long distance to blitz naruto and bee, then Im guessing you concede the point that he did move a long distance very quickly.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Lol, they were? Stop me when I'm getting close.
> 
> The panel doesn't support what you are arbitrating, as it doesn't support your previous point.


since none of that addresses my argument that madara's old swords were gone which he has now replaced with new PS swords, then Im guessing you concede that point as well.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> All of it was gone, you sure about that.
> 
> All of it was gone, yet the panel showcases Susano'o having to deal with Hashi's wood variates. Not that the mokuryuu was still in tact until it was sliced in half here.


since none of the above addresses my argument that all the mokuton on the battlefield including mokujin and mokuryu were destroyed when the bijuudama went off, then I'm guessing you concede that point as well.

Mokuhobi survived the blast, but it wasn't there before the dama went off and I never said it was destroyed.  Mokuton arms were created after the bijuudama so obviously no one would expect the bijuudama to destroy something that wasn't there.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Don't make you refute the obvious, yet you have a history of lying in your lines. Mr. Naruto destroyed Mokuryuu here.


He did destroy it.  He blew up the entire head of mokuryu when he shunshined as you can see the pieces of the head are flying off in different directions in that panel.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> "Don't make you refute the blatantly obvious:" yet, you're the only one one presenting such radical ideas, usually.


you are the one who said sasuke's V4 susanoo can take an UNLIMITED amount of Fuuton rasenshurikens without a scratch.  That means if there were a billion Narutos firing billions of Fuuton rasenshurikens at sasukes V4 susanoo all day for a million years, sasuke's susanoo would never ever get scratched.

You have no right to ever EVER accuse another human being of making radical claims.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Don't have to attack something that's not supported.
> 
> It's another baseless, BS, safe face argument by ueharakk.
> It's an "assertion" that's not supported by a shred of panel. It's an "assertion" in which YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR VALIDATING, SINCE YOU ARE THE ONE TRYING TO PRESENT THE POINT.


If you want to say its not supported, then you have to show that it's not supported.  If not then like any assertion backed up by no argument, evidence or reasoning, your assertion is baseless, holds no water, and thus results in a concession of the point as you haven't given a counterargument other than the equivalent of "you are wrong."



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Refuted it with what? A baseless argument in which you can't support?
> Refuted it with what? A ueharakk hypothesis?


An argument is only baseless if it is supported by no reason, logic or evidence.  Calling my assertion baseless despite me giving an argument for it is even worse than making a baseless assertion since your assertion is actually falsified by the presence of an argument.  Whether you think my argument is a good one or not doesn't matter, if my assertion is supported by reason, logic or evidence then it's not baseless.

Now if you don't AGREE with my argument then you have to give a counterargument else you simply saying my arguments are baseless is a concession on your part as that's not only false but is not supported by any reasoning.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Again for Iphr0z3nI, you don't even need to ask.
> 
> Iphr0z3nI isn't like you, we're not equal sided. How many times do I have to show and prove this to you.


tanked = taking a direct hit from the attack with little to no damage.  

since none of those scans are instances of individuals who are weaker than PS tanking a direct hit of a bijuudama with little or no damage, then I guess you rescind your statement that lesser individuals than PS have tanked a bijuudama.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> What, what are you talking about?
> 
> It was Hashi's jutsu that was implied to have blow open, once again you arbitrate something not supported by the manga.


Hashirama's attack on PS and Kyuusanoos attack on Mokubuddah both were portrayed as roughly equal, and created the right half of *this symmetrical explosion.*  Thus is the reasoning that 11 sworddamas is the equivalent of what it took to do what hashi's attack did to susanoo.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Are you serious? Does any Bijuudama user possess the same control over enton that Sasuke does.
> 
> This isn't even a good counterpart, you are going to get bodied if you go down this road.


You said that susanoo isn't harmed by enton because both are an uchiha technique.  Now are you asserting that both being an uchiha technique is irrelevant and that it's simply the control of the user that stops it from harming the construct?



IpHr0z3nI said:


> What? Please stop playing with full grown posters, you sound just awful.
> 
> He's clearly making contact with his enton here. Such is not even debatable.


so you've pretty much just ignored my counterargument and reposted your argument which would be a concession on your part as an ignored argument is a conceded one.  



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Once again, you make an excuses for the panel not exactly supporting what you are trying to arbitrate. Touching the raikage's shroud = touching A? I guess the Juubi touched Naruto through his shroud here, as well right?


I'll post the scans again since it seems you didn't even see them.


*Bee touching Ei* *through* *his shroud*,  *Oonoki touching Ei through his shroud.*.

In the first scan what exactly do you see?  Is bee's fist not within the shroud and touching Ei?
In the second scan what exactly do you see?  Is bee's hand not grabbing Ei's hand while in the shroud?
In the third scan what do you see?  Is bee's tentacle not within the shroud and touching Ei's body?
In the fourth scan what do you see?  Is Oonoki not within the shroud clinging on to Ei's shoulder?

please debate honestly and do not lie about what you see in the manga scans.  Doing that just shows how weak and unsupported your argument is since you have to stoop to those tactics.

And finally even if they aren't touching ei and there is an infintesimally small distance between their skin and Ei's the fact is that they are able to simply place their hands within the shroud in otherwords the shroud is permeable unlike Naruto's shrouds which blocks off hits and doesn't let things through, it forms a solid distinct barrier between the outside and the inside.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> It does if you are able to put two and two together without Iphr0z3nI giving you the "blatantly obvious"
> 
> Fire is ambient chakara much like Naruto's shroud, thus burning one implicates it's capable of burning the other.


Since this has nothing to do with my post, then you concede that enton burning fire doesn't mean anything about how long it takes to burn naruto's shroud.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 6, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> The "So I heard" is supported by Amaterasu's feats, outside of Obito's jutsu what has it failed to burn?


How about what's the most durable thing it succeeded in burning till eradication.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Please note that Zetsu reinforces the statement."They continue to burn until the target is completely eradicated"
> 
> And note that it wasn't zetsu who hyped Amaterasu to be unavoidable, that was Sasuke.(How many times are you going to get proven wrong by Iphr0z3nI, we should really start keeping score, A?)


*Read the manga Iphr0z3nl* straight from zetsus mouth confirming his belief that amaterasu is unavoidable.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> So you concede that Amaterasu/Enton will burn Naruto's cloak, hence forcing him to take action.
> 
> So you concede that Naruto would be at a disadvantage against Sasuke?
> Naruto dispelling his cloak, means death on this stage.


Again, do you concede that canceling a burning charkra limb will cancel the amaterasu attached to it?

The concessions you are requesting have nothing to do with the argument you've addressed, thus they are irrelevant.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> No, Naruto would need to dispel any portion of his shroud in which was affected, tails, face, torso, leg, thigh all of them are potential targets for Sasuke's attacks.
> 
> *Reforms the tail immediately, you make the assumption that only tails would be affected. You make the assumption that Naruto would be able to isolate the flames enough to do such. You make the assumption that he'll have time do all that while Sasuke is attacking.*
> 
> He doesn't need half a tail to block Sasuke's attacks? Another baseless assertion by you, I take.


None of this is a counterargument for the post you've quoted which asserts that naruto wouldn't need all his tails to block his body from enton strikes and can cancel and reform his tails.

If you want to assert things like the bolded, then you have to back those assertions up with an argument.  If you want to assert that NOT only the tails would be affected or Naruto WOULDN't be able to isolate the flames, or Naruto WOULDN'T be able to do this while sasuke is attacking, then back those up with arguments else they are simply baseless assertions.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> It's an assertion, a baseless one at that.
> 
> You are hinting something not very supported.


since I've just explained how it's litterally impossible for that assertion to be baseless unless you want to change the definition of what baseless means, then it's a concession on your part as it's the equivalent of you straight up ignoring my argument.  And even if you didn't call my argument baseless it would still be a concession on your part as you simply assert that im hinting at something not very supported yet you give zero reasoning for that assertion, thus it would be you who is making the baseless assertion.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Note that my argument here served to debunk your initial argument of Amaterasu/Enton not being able to burn Kurama's cloak.


Hold on, when did i ever say that enton/amaterasu would not be able to burn kurama's cloak?  I've never said that. I've only said that it would burn the cloak so slowly that it wouldn't even be a factor in the match considering the durability of the cloak and 




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Partial transformations are cool, but how do they help Naruto here?
> 
> Naruto isn't fighting against a smaller scale opponent, he's fighting another chakara construct, one that incorporates enton into all of his attacks. Naruto chakara canceling is rather inconvenient, and you know it as well.
> Hence is why you are limiting it's effects to just things that can be canceled.
> ...


this was only brought up as a positive argument to show he can cancel and reform his chakra limbs



IpHr0z3nI said:


> I haven't? Then what exactly is your definition of attacking?


attacking would be giving evidence against your opponent's assertion.  The assertion was that 'I didn't say because bijuudamas blow up mountains they damage PS.'  your post didn't attack that assertion, thus you logically concede that argument.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 6, 2013)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> I hatw when people post long ass posts when there full of shit and they nake it more complex than it needs to be.



I know right, it would be so much easier if we just simplified it and said PS isn't going to *survive this bijuudama.* nor can it output *anything close to the power of the Juubi.*

and since BSM Naruto can make bijuudamas much more powerful than that, and BM Naruto can block the Juubi's laser the far far far more powerful 100% BSM Naruto should win.

see it's a simple, not complex, post for NF's version of "Joe the plumber": Former Obd Lurker.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> No, it isn't.
> 
> Sasuke needs to coat his Jutsu with natural energy to even be effective. The Juin has always been a lower version of Sage Mode. Sasuke using it now to be relevant in the fight doesn't automatically make it equal to SM.


Actually neither Naruto nor Sasuke are using SM to be stronger, they are using it because nature energy right now is the the only effective measure against Obito's defenses.

And while you are right to some extend, that they aren't completely equal, they more or less derive from the same thing and are portrayed to be close non the less.



> Then how did they fire them at the exact same time?



Sasuke waited for Naruto to charge it ? 

Like Itachi did here : Then how did they fire them at the exact same time?

Come on, you know better not to use strawman arguments like this 



> There's two. Pain interrupted Rokubi Naruto's, and Minato interrupted Kurama's.


Sasuke & co had plenty of time to get up and run away
Orochimaru casually weaved hand signs Sasuke & co had plenty of time to get up and run away

I bet there are more, but I am too lazy to dig up.




> Naruto's Bijuudama has a lesser charge time than those two.


Based on what ? 



> Sauce & Naruto will fire their attacks at the exact same time just as in canon,


What canon ? 



> and by feats......Bijuu Bomb blows through an arrow that was stopped by half dead Obito's Chakra rod.


I didn't say arrow can win against Bijuudama. Of course not.
I am saying that Sasuke can use it to detonate the bomb prematurely, which he easily can.






> Perfect Susano'o and Kurama are the same size. Reread Hashirama and Madara's battle.


Perfect Susano'o from the waist up is around the same size. It is bigger as a whole.
Also I was comparing PS susano'o's swords to the enton Sauce used on Juubi and Juubi's size to Kurama.
So you get the picture more clearly.




> Naruto's Chakra avatar is more comparable to Susano'o then to a Katon Fireball. Naruto can just block the Jutsu with his tails like he's done with every other attack (including fire), and then proceed to disperse the tails to get rid of the flames.


Sure he can sacrifice his tails to block the enton swords. But he has only 9 and a hit landing on any other area will cause significant damage, to the extend that it can cost him the fight.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 6, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't say arrow can win against Bijuudama. Of course not.
> I am saying that Sasuke can use it to detonate the bomb prematurely, which he easily can.



I'm only addressing this because im not sure how rocky will answer it.

An arrow will not prematurely set off a bijuudama.  In order to do so, you have to hit the dama with an attack at least somewhat comparable in power.  

That's why bee's bijuudamas merely served as an attempt to merely change the trajectory of the juubi's bijuudama, why naruto needed to match the power of 5 bijuu in order to equal the super bijuudama and why the supers clashed and went straight into the air.  We also know that madara can stick his PS blades inside of a bijuudama and it won't set the dama off.  So i really don't see how sasuke's susanoo arrows are going to set it off.

Honestly if you consider the penetrating feats of sasuke's arrows they'd sadly just bounce off of bijuudamas as bijuudamas are made up of he same material as the V2 jinchuriki cloak except super compressed thus much more durable.  It's the same cloak that wasn't pierced after riding the tip of kusanagi blade for a couple of kilometers and into a cliff.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 6, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And while you are right to some extend, that they aren't completely equal, they more or less derive from the same thing and are portrayed to be close non the less.




They derive from the same thing, but Sage Mode is just flat out more powerful and this is clear. Curse Seal is Kaioken, while Sage Mode is Super Saiyan.



> Sasuke waited for Naruto to charge it




Except there isn't any panel of Sasuke waiting for Naruto to charge it. 




> Sasuke & co had plenty of time to get up and run away
> Orochimaru casually weaved hand signs Sasuke & co had plenty of time to get up and run away




They got up and ran away. Suigetsu opted to try and tank it.





> Based on what ?




His showings.




> I didn't say arrow can win against Bijuudama. Of course not.
> I am saying that Sasuke can use it to detonate the bomb prematurely, which he easily can.




And what feat does that arrow have that lead to to claiming it can "easily" do that. Bijuudama don't just go off upon contact. The Juubi was able to physically swat one aside without the bomb going off in its face. Hashirama was able to _catch_ one. Naruto able to push one through a barrier. 

If the arrow doesn't pack enough force to blow through a Chakra rod, then it'll just bounce off Bijuudama. Even if it somehow went through, we'll just see something similar to Madara's Kyuubi-Susano'o attacks. Sasuke's arrows need to pack force greater than Bijuudama itself to set it of, otherwise it'll be a situation akin to Killer Bee hopelessly trying to change the trajectory of the Jubbi's Bijuubomb with his own.




> Sure he can sacrifice his tails to block the enton swords. But he has only 9 and a hit landing on any other area will cause significant damage, to the extend that it can cost him the fight.




That entire cloak is made up of Chakra. He can deactivate the on-fire cloak, leave Sasuke's vision with his flicker (just like the Raikage), and reactivate the cloak. Sasuke isn't going to be spamming Perfect Susano'o & Enton with his current Stamina, considering he couldn't even use a legged Susano'o without Naruto's cloak.

There are also other methods of avoiding Sasuke's attacks. Jumping over them and raining down multiple Bijuudama, giving summons the Kyuubi Cloak and having them target Sasuke's vulnerable spots, or even using clones to grab on to Sauce while Naruto charges his most powerful Bijuudama.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> They derive from the same thing, but Sage Mode is just flat out more powerful and this is clear. Curse Seal is Kaioken, while Sage Mode is Super Saiyan.



I don't get the dragonball reference since I haven't seen the series. Call it a retcon or whatever you want but here Naruto & Sasuke standing side by side, CS being portrayed as SM's equal.
And the gap between them is minor @ best.



> Except there isn't any panel of Sasuke waiting for Naruto to charge it.


I wonder why ? Maybe because everything prior to that exact moment was offpaneled ? 

There isn't panel of Naruto forming the bijuudama. Maybe he didn't even form it, pulled it out of his ass 




> They got up and ran away. Suigetsu opted to try and tank it.


And ? 

My examples back up what I already said. Bijuu-damas have significant charge times, and everytime the target had a chance to react one way or the other.



> His showings.


Care to share them with us ? 



> And what feat does that arrow have that lead to to claiming it can "easily" do that.



Arrow doesn't have a charge time, it can be launched before the Bijuudama is set off. 




> Bijuudama don't just go off upon contact. The Juubi was able to physically swat one aside without the bomb going off in its face. Hashirama was able to _catch_ one. Naruto able to push one through a barrier.



If it doesn't just go off upon contact with a high velocity object like arrow, then I am pretty sure Sasuke with his CS coated perfect susano'o can replicate those feats you meantioned above. Aka, redirect the Bijuudama by hitting it, since you know it won't go off upon contact.




> If the arrow doesn't pack enough force to blow through a Chakra rod, then it's just bounce off Bijuudama.


I think the chakra rod was used to absorb it, not withstand its force.
Because we know for a fact that the arrow can pierce Mokuton, and other solid objects of greater mass than the chakra rod. 

Perfect Susano'o's Enton arrows will be much larger and stronger.




> That entire cloak is made up of Chakra. He can deactivate the on-fire cloak, leave Sasuke's vision with his flicker (just like the Raikage), and reactivate the cloak.


Sounds a bit fanon to me. 
Also he won't be escaping *CS* Sasuke's vision, especially when Sasuke is inside Perfect Susano'o's head, such a high vantage point.



> Sasuke isn't going to be spamming Perfect Susano'o & Enton with his current Stamina, considering he couldn't even use a legged Susano'o without Naruto's cloak.


Speculation. 
You don't even know about Sasuke's current stamina. We haven't seen Sasuke getting tired since he got his EMS or have a proper 1on1 fight.


> There are also other methods of avoiding Sasuke's attacks. Jumping over them


When he is in the air, he is more susceptible to anything Sasuke throws @ him, given he can't manuever in mid air.



> and raining down multiple Bijuudama


And Sasuke is doing nothing while this is happning ? Or is he spamming enton Magatama/arrow/mountain slashing PS swords ? 



> giving summons the Kyuubi Cloak and having them target Sasuke's vulnerable spots,


summons are fodder with or without the cloak in a battle of this level.




> or even using clones to grab on to Sauce while Naruto charges his most powerful Bijuudama.


Clones grabbing on CS Perfect Susano'o ? Sasuke can instantly coat Susano'o with Enton, like he did against Raikage. Clones can't grab shit, even if they were physically capable of doing so.



ueharakk said:


> I'm only addressing this because im not sure how rocky will answer it.
> 
> An arrow will not prematurely set off a bijuudama.  In order to do so, you have to hit the dama with an attack at least somewhat comparable in power.
> 
> ...




Mokuton can withstand bijuudama and MS Sasuke's arrow pierced it.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 6, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> but here Naruto & Sasuke standing side by side, CS being portrayed as SM's equal.




No.

That doesn't logically follow through. That's like saying Magatama & Rasenshuriken were portrayed equal to Bijuudama. 



> I wonder why ? Maybe because everything prior to that exact moment was offpaneled ?
> 
> There isn't panel of Naruto forming the bijuudama. Maybe he didn't even form it, pulled it out of his ass




"It was off paneled" isn't an argument. Basically what I've gathered so far is that you have actually no proof that Sasuke waited.


My examples back up what I already said. Bijuu-damas have significant charge times, and everytime the target had a chance to react one way or the other.




> Care to share them with us ?




It's pretty much every time BM Naruto's used Bijuudama.



> Arrow doesn't have a charge time, it can be launched before the Bijuudama is set off.




Yes it does.  You ever fired an arrow from a bow? There's a process, it doesn't just magically happen. Sasuke must also form the bow.



> I am pretty sure Sasuke with his CS coated perfect susano'o can replicate those feats you meantioned above. Aka, redirect the Bijuudama by hitting it, since you know it won't go off upon contact.




Except it will either fail to do so, or go through the Bijuudama and just make it an Bijuudama with an arrow inside. I'm not sure what feat the arrow has to suggest it's going to change the course of Bijuudama.




> Because we know for a fact that the arrow can pierce Mokuton, and other solid objects of greater mass than the chakra rod.




The Mokuton tree had no opposing velocity, nor was there anything special about its durability.




> Sounds a bit fanon to me.
> Also he won't be escaping *CS* Sasuke's vision, especially when Sasuke is inside Perfect Susano'o's head, such a high vantage point.




"Sasuke spamming PS & Enton Swords & arrows" is a steaming pile of fanon.  KCM Naruto would leave Sasuke's vision, because KCM Naruto is faster than Ei. "*CS*" doesn't compensate for the Bijuu Mode boost, the Sage Mode boost to speed, reflexes, and Ninjutsu (Shunshin), and the other half of Kurama. 



> Speculation. You don't even know about Sasuke's current stamina. We haven't seen Sasuke getting tired since he got his EMS or have a proper 1on1 fight.




We know about Sauce's stamina from his previous showings. EMS doesn't change this. Of course he isn't going to tire out now. He has Naruto's Chakra. 



> When he is in the air, he is more susceptible to anything Sasuke throws @ him, given he can't manuever in mid air.And Sasuke is doing nothing while this is happning ? Or is he spamming enton Magatama/arrow/mountain slashing PS swords ?




This is a counter-attacking strategy. Sasuke attacks, Naruto jumps and _counter-attacks_ before Sasuke can regather himself. 




> summons are fodder with or without the cloak in a battle of this level.




 "This level"

Cloaked Hinata's attacks affected the Juubi.

Cloaked Boss Toads >>> Cloaked Hinata.

Juubi >>>>> Mega Sauce.

The attacks of the summons with definitely affect Sasuke.



> Clones grabbing on CS Perfect Susano'o ? Sasuke can instantly coat Susano'o with Enton, like he did against Raikage. Clones can't grab shit, even if they were physically capable of doing so.




Coating Rib-Cage =/= Coating the entire Perfect Susano'o. Stamina becomes an issue.

Clones can use the Chakra limbs of Kurama to momentarily grab on to Sasuke. Even if Susano'o is on fire, Naruto will pull a Raikage and ignore it. The arms are Chakra, so there isn't any immediate danger, and the clones are ultimately expendable.



> Mokuton can withstand bijuudama and MS Sasuke's arrow pierced it.




You did not just equate all Mokuton. 

Bijuudama blasted through the wood dragon without detonating, but failed to damage the Hōbi with its explosion. Mokuton varies in durability.

Danzou's tree has no feats.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 6, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Mokuton can withstand bijuudama and MS Sasuke's arrow pierced it.


unless you can show that the mokuton that withstood a bijuudama is somehow comparable to the mokuton that MS Sasuke's arrow pierced then your post is irrelevant in comparing the power of a bijuudama and the power of a susanoo arrow.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> No.
> 
> That doesn't logically follow through. That's like saying Magatama & Rasenshuriken were portrayed equal to Bijuudama.


First of it is a different case. Naruto & Sasuke have that rivalry going. Going by their history, their powers have all been in the same ballpark somehow. And we are comparing 2 similar things here, CS to SM.

As for those 3 attacks, they are completely different type of attacks, we know it. 
But yeah, I believe they are also in the same ballpark with respect to what they can accomplish.





> "It was off paneled" isn't an argument. Basically what I've gathered so far is that you have actually no proof that Sasuke waited.


So it is ok for you to use it ? 

You are claiming that Naruto can fire a bijuudama as fast as Sasuke can shoot an arrow. But everything prior to the moment the projectiles were used were off paneled.
So going by what we know, that Naruto needs to charge a bijuu dama, he charged it. Simple as that.
You can't claim he didn't because he wasn't shown doing it. It was off paneled afterall.




> It's pretty much every time BM Naruto's used Bijuudama.


So Naruto skipped the charge part ? Show me please.






> Yes it does.  You ever fired an arrow from a bow? There's a process, it doesn't just magically happen. Sasuke must also form the bow.


Bow is already formed, he just needs to release the string. 
Sasuke can shoot arrows so fast that Kakashi can do nothing but use Kamui to warp them. It is a much faster process than the bijuu dama charging.





> Except it will either fail to do so, or go through the Bijuudama and just make it an Bijuudama with an arrow inside. I'm not sure what feat the arrow has to suggest it's going to change the course of Bijuudama.


Hashirama can grab a bijuudama with his mokuton construct. Why can't Sasuke do the same with PS ? 




> The Mokuton tree had no opposing velocity, nor was there anything special about its durability.


It is mokuton non the less, a big one at that. Opposing velocity part is irrelevant, if anything it makes it easier for the arrow to penetrate it.





> "Sasuke spamming PS & Enton Swords & arrows" is a steaming pile of fanon.


How is that fanon ? 
The OP granted the ability to use them. 



> *KCM Naruto would leave Sasuke's vision*, because KCM Naruto is faster than Ei. "*CS*" doesn't compensate for the Bijuu Mode boost, the Sage Mode boost to speed, reflexes, and Ninjutsu (Shunshin), and the other half of Kurama.


No he won't. 
Read the last chapter 






> We know about Sauce's stamina from his previous showings. EMS doesn't change this. Of course he isn't going to tire out now. He has Naruto's Chakra.


You don't know his current stamina though.
And EMS negates all the backlashes from MS usage. 
Most of the problems Sasuke faced were related to that.





> This is a counter-attacking strategy. Sasuke attacks, Naruto jumps and _counter-attacks_ before Sasuke can regather himself.


 I am asking, what is Sasuke preoccupied with when Naruto jumps ? What is preventing him from matching Bijuudama's with enton magatama or arrows ?



> "This level"
> 
> Cloaked Hinata's attacks affected the Juubi.
> 
> ...



I only remember Hiashi or Neji stopping a single tail of juubi with air palm. 
That form of Juubi wasn't its peak form.
And yeah, fodder summons will remain fodder against CS powered PS.




> Coating Rib-Cage =/= Coating the entire Perfect Susano'o. Stamina becomes an issue.


Assumption.

So your whole argument relies on the fact that Sasuke can't use anything he had done so far in a bigger, PS scale, in a match where the OP granted Sasuke to freely use those abilities.

What is the purpose of discussing this match if we are to assume Sasuke can't comfortably use anything in this scale ? 



> Clones can use the Chakra limbs of Kurama to momentarily grab on to Sasuke. Even if Susano'o is on fire, Naruto will pull a Raikage and ignore it. The arms are Chakra, so there isn't any immediate danger, and the clones are ultimately expendable.


Clones can't pull a raikage. They poof with damage.




> You did not just equate all Mokuton.


Danzo used Hashirama's mokuton, he had hashirama's DNA and flesh. 



> Bijuudama blasted through the wood dragon without detonating, but failed to damage the Hōbi with its explosion. Mokuton varies in durability.


And the arrow that pierced Danzo's Mokuton was used by MS Sasuke's stage 3 Susano'o. 
The one in question is Perfect Susano'o's enton arrow. 
Arrows vary in power.



> Danzou's tree has no feats.


Nice argument.



ueharakk said:


> unless you can show that the mokuton that withstood a bijuudama is somehow comparable to the mokuton that MS Sasuke's arrow pierced then your post is irrelevant in comparing the power of a bijuudama and the power of a susanoo arrow.


Why don't you prove that the mokuton that withstood the bijuudama is more powerful ? 
Because you are the one making the distinction.

And as I already mentioned in my reply to rocky, we aren't talking about MS Sasuke'S regular arrow here.
We are talking about PS's enton arrow. If that mokuton is inferior to the mokuton that can withstand a bijuudama, the arrow which pierced it is infeiror to the arrow PS is going to use.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 8, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why don't you prove that the mokuton that withstood the bijuudama is more powerful ?
> Because you are the one making the distinction.


Okay, *size of mokuton that got blown up by bijuudama.*
*Size of mokuton that arrow pierced*

I think that point is done.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And as I already mentioned in my reply to rocky, we aren't talking about MS Sasuke'S regular arrow here.
> We are talking about PS's enton arrow. If that mokuton is inferior to the mokuton that can withstand a bijuudama, the arrow which pierced it is infeiror to the arrow PS is going to use.


well since you are saying that the PS arrow detonates the bijuudama, the burden of proof would be on you to show the PS arrow has comparable power to the bijuudama unless you don't believe that that is a requirement to detonate the dama.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 8, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Okay, *size of mokuton that got blown up by bijuudama.*
> *Size of mokuton that arrow pierced*
> 
> I think that point is done.
> ...



We both know that there is no burden of proof here, because this match up relies on an imaginary version of Sasuke and all we can do is to make assumptions.

But if we scale the enton arrow, based on the power of mountain slicing swords, then I don't think it is a stretch that an Enton PS arrow would be comparable to a Bijuudama(not in AOE damage but in terms of damage per unit).

And if I am wrong, and PS arrows fail to accomplish what I said they can, then Sasuke can just target the head or the mouth of Naruto and detonate the bomb prematurely like Deva realm did by smashing the boulder into Kn6's face. 
It might be the safer approach. Unless of course you believe that BM Naruto would be completely unphased by an attack of that caliber.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 8, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We both know that there is no burden of proof here, because this match up relies on an imaginary version of Sasuke and all we can do is to make assumptions.


no there always is a burden of proof if you make an assertion.  The matchup being imaginary just means that the proof you give is to support that assertion shouldn't be expected to have a lot of manga support for either the pro or con.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> But if we scale the enton arrow, based on the power of mountain slicing swords, then I don't think it is a stretch that an Enton PS arrow would be comparable to a Bijuudama(not in AOE damage but in terms of damage per unit).


I have to say though that the sword slashes from sasuke's lower susanoos seem to be much more powerful than the arrow (slicing through the god tree vs stopped by tree and bridge) but granting you that point but I think your point is a fair one, you have to specify which bijuudama because the damas naruto can output greatly vary in size.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And if I am wrong, and PS arrows fail to accomplish what I said they can, then Sasuke can just target the head or the mouth of Naruto and detonate the bomb prematurely like Deva realm did by smashing the boulder into Kn6's face.
> It might be the safer approach. Unless of course you believe that BM Naruto would be completely unphased by an attack of that caliber.


Well this sort of presupposes that sasuke can make, load, fire and land the arrow before naruto can charge a bijuudama.  Unless we are talking about his max bijuudamas, naruto has been shown the ability to create and fire bijuudamas much faster than sasuke can do those things.

Granting the arrow hits the face while in charge time, I'd agree that it'd either disrupt the dama or cause naruto to lose control of it like KN6 did.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 8, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> no there always is a burden of proof if you make an assertion.  The matchup being imaginary just means that the proof you give is to support that assertion shouldn't be expected to have a lot of manga support for either the pro or con.
> 
> 
> I have to say though that the sword slashes from sasuke's lower susanoos seem to be much more powerful than the arrow (slicing through the god tree vs stopped by tree and bridge) but granting you that point but I think your point is a fair one, you have to specify which bijuudama because the damas naruto can output greatly vary in size.
> ...



How can I provide proof regarding Sasuke's PS and its enton arrows ? They don't exist in the manga.


----------



## Etherborn (Oct 8, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How can I provide proof regarding Sasuke's PS and its enton arrows ? They don't exist in the manga.



That's why this thread is weird. We're basically giving Sasuke an upgrade that we have no way to power scale other than the fact that Madara has the same power and that he is hax with it. But to say that it would be as powerful as Madara's would saying that all Perfect Susanoos are the same, and that Sasuke is automatically as good at using it as Madara. If you want to make that assumption, fine, but it's kind of baseless.

It's like saying pre-war Sakura would be as strong as sage mode Naruto if she had sage mode.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 8, 2013)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> That's why this thread is weird. We're basically giving Sasuke an upgrade that we have no way to power scale other than the fact that Madara has the same power and that he is hax with it. But to say that it would be as powerful as Madara's would saying that all Perfect Susanoos are the same, and that Sasuke is automatically as good at using it as Madara. If you want to make that assumption, fine, but it's kind of baseless.
> 
> It's like saying pre-war Sakura would be as strong as sage mode Naruto if she had sage mode.



The difference is that, Madara bar rinnegan and Ps doesn't have anything on Sasuke. His EMS feats as an Edo weren't impressive enough to suggest that there is a gap between skill or talent between the two.
The only thing which I can see that Madara is outright superior to Sasuke is his chakra pool.

So the Sakura/Naruto example is a bit off the mark here.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 8, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So going by what we know, that Naruto needs to charge a bijuu dama, he charged it. Simple as that.




Yep, as fast as Sasuke can fire an arrow.



> You can't claim he didn't because he wasn't shown doing it. It was off paneled afterall.




I'm still waiting for you to prove Sasuke waited for Naruto to charge it. Naruto could've just charged it fast enough to launch along side Sasuke's arrow. 





> Sasuke can shoot arrows so fast that Kakashi can do nothing but use Kamui to warp them. It is a much faster process than the bijuu dama charging.




Actually the Bijuudama charging process matched the "shoot an arrow" process. 



> Hashirama can grab a bijuudama with his mokuton construct. Why can't Sasuke do the same with PS ?




Because Sauce isn't Hashirama.

Hashirama also grabbed on to Susano'os sword. I suppose Naruto just casually catches Sauce's swords now.



> It is mokuton non the less, a big one at that.




So?




> I am asking, what is Sasuke preoccupied with when Naruto jumps ? What is preventing him from matching Bijuudama's with enton magatama or arrows ?




Do you know what a counter attack is? 



> I only remember Hiashi or Neji stopping a single tail of juubi with air palm.
> That form of Juubi wasn't its peak form.
> And yeah, fodder summons will remain fodder against CS powered PS.




Reread. Hinata sent a Jubi tail flying across the battlefield into a mountain. If her attacks affect the ten-tails, then I fail to see how summons can't affect Sauce.




> Clones can't pull a raikage. They poof with damage.




Fire doesn't bother Naruto's chakra limbs.




> Danzo used Hashirama's mokuton, he had hashirama's DNA and flesh.




Hashirama's Mokuton differs in durability. The wood dragon was shattered by Bijuudama.


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 8, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How can I provide proof regarding Sasuke's PS and its enton arrows ? They don't exist in the manga.



Proof is just another way to say "argument" or "reasoning".  100% proof =/= proof and i'm not asking for that standard of evidence.

If you want to assert Sasuke's enton arrows do X action, all you have to do is provide reasoning as to why you believe it can do it or it would be powerful enough to do it.  After you do that, if I am not convinced by your argument, I have a burden of proof to show why the alternative is more plausible than your own.  You don't have to 'prove' your assertion is true, you just have to support why you believe it's the most plausible explanation by reasoning.


----------



## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 4, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Minato's Biju Mode Rasengan + Senjutsu is probably is stronger than the Jyubi Bijudama's.


lol 


I don't even know what this thread is about, but this is Fuckin' Fail.


----------



## ARGUS (Dec 4, 2013)

For sasuke to even compete with 100% BSM he needs rinnegan 
Theoretically he loses this mid diff at most


----------

