# [Official] Tobi's Identity Thread



## Mugivara (Aug 15, 2012)

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is .





Escargon said:


> But Tobi is whiter in every other panel, even after the fight if i remember correctly, just look at the feets.



This isn't the point:



Look at this, it's clear that skin color is brown. If the feets are different, that means the body parts may be belong to different people.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> The anime fucks up all the time. Just look at Tobi's skin color when he fought Minato. How he looked during his battle with Konan was just due to all the explosions.



You're saying all the time that the masked man was Madara until the x point of the story. And then Obito became Tobi and continued Madara's job.

But, when I say Tobi's skin color is darker, you're exemplifying that the one who fought Minato was white.

Why does it need to be as you told every time?

Actually both of you are missing a few things, I actually don't support Tobi is Hashirama's son theory it was just a quick example to be able to discuss with Jacamo.

But if we're trying to find out who Tobi is, his skin color has more value than assumptions like saying Madara gave his eyes to Nagato when Nagato was 9 and lived a short time10-15 years...


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## EvilHina (Aug 15, 2012)

*The Mistery behind Tobi !!!*

Hi there.
So there it is, my first and only predicition on how to solve the mistery that is Tobi. Im posting this now with 2-3 weeks to go until 600 hits, which in my mind will be the chapter to finally unmask Tobi. This theory stands now for about 135 chapters(in 462 tobi has the conversation with naruto during the "Meeting of the 5 Kages") and just needed the final piece of the puzzle to be completed.

It all begins with a quote from Tobi

This

"...it is to become complete..."

That quote basically gives us all the intel we need. Tobi desires to be complete. We already know that his aim is to become the Ten-Tails aka Juubi Jinchuuriki. But that is merely one of his aims. His ultimate aim would be to become the reincarnation of the Rikudo Sennin - Sage of the Six Paths. If we look closely at the info Tobi has given us, we can conclude that the legacy of the Rikudo Sage was built on 3 pillars of power.

1. The Sage possessed the ultimate Doujutsu, the Rinnegan, which enabled him to use the six paths' ninjutsu and making him the ruler over life and death itself.

2. The Rikudo-Sennin sealed the Juubi inside himself and thus was able to wield inconceivable power and made him the bearer of the ultimate chakra being.

3. He possessed the ultimate Body, gifted with life force and physical energy that allowed him to live an unnatural long life, possibly even centuries in which he tried to bring peace to the world.

Now that established this, it is safe to say that Tobi and his plan to "become complete" aims at these 3 pillars of power.

Now lets start with the Rinnegan. It is safe to say that Nagatos Rinnegan was a gift from Tobi, as he stated to Konan when he took the eyes back from Nagatos corpse. This really makes me wonder. How was Tobi able to get his hands on these blessed eyes? I have a theory for that which will be saved for the end.

Now to continue to the 2nd pillar of power. There is already a lot of info based around the juubi and how to awaken it and while there remain a few secrets when it comes to the Gedo-Mazou statue, it is safe to say that Tobi already has everything he needs to awaken the Juubi again. As of the Juubis body, Tobi stated that the real body was transformed into the moon when the Rikudo-Sennin sealed its chakra into himself. But this may very well be
part of the legend. We cannot say at this point but im positive that Kishi will adress this matter very soon, especially considering the so called "Moon-Eye-Project", in which the moon takes its role. I highly doubt this is a coincidence. I would even go as far and say that the Mugen-Tsukoyomi is Tobis last and biggest bluff and is just used as a big enough threat to draw the nations into war. But lets leave it at that and not spin this theory further.

Last but not least there is the ultimate life force body that the Rikudo-Sennin possessed. This third part goes hand in hand with the acquisition of the Rinnegan. I would like to look at this from a different angle.I will use another Tobi quote here.

This

"..time passed and though their blood had thinned, the descendants of the two brothers still warred with each other..."

When Shodai Hokage Senju Hashirama fought Uchiha Madara at the valley of the end, history itself proved Tobis statement to be correct.

I will now give you my final conclusion.

Full of rage about the Rikudo-Sennins decision, the elder son continually searched conflict with his younger brother until it all climaxed in a battle where the wielder of the Rinnegan would meet his fate in his younger brother.The younger brother who was picked as being best suited to be his fathers successor, would then continue to implement his late fathers last will to bring peace to the world. Given his unnatural long life it would take ages but inevitably the younger brother would then have to admit, that even he was not able to find an answer to the peace he so desperately longed for. Decade after decade witnessing the terror of the cursed shinobi world, he began to lose his faith in the good nature of men. The more suffering he witnessed the more he confessed to himself that if he would not be able to bring peace to the world, nobody else could achieve this either. It was around the time of the battle at the valley of the end when he decided to push things forward more drastically. He instated a long term plan in which he increases his own battle capacity to a point where fear would control the world and bring peace as a result of his own disastrous actions. But he no longer was a young man and to achieve his goals he would be forced to recreate the Juubi that his father split into 9 being of chakra as a source of power. He also knew that only his exceptional body could absorb such immense chakra without being torn apart. Knowing that even he was not immortal he researched to create something of his own body cells that would everlasting be able to hold the Juuubis power and force fear upon the world. The results of this research would be a creation further known as Zetsu. But the younger son was no fool. He Knew that the world would need more to be controlled. The people would need a certain concept of the enemy, which they could fear. It had to be someone or something everybody would acknowledge. This concept, this idea would go by the name of Uchiha Madara. He contacted Madara, who had lost his fight with the Shodai Hokage and offered him an increase in power in exchange for working with him and
further improving Zetsu.He would offer his older brothers accursed eyes, the Rinnegan. But already knowing that Madara would meet his end soon  enough, he was on the lookout for an even more promising prot?g?. After years of searching, he finally placed his eyes on a fitting candidate.
Born as an offspring to the Uzumaki-clan, a young war orphan named Nagato emerged in the Rain Country. This boy who inherited his clans superior life force would be later known to the world as "Pain". Having created an organsisation called "Akatsuki" the younger brother slowly but surely pushed things forward. Although having all those fail-safe systems established, the younger brother knew that the day would come when he had to face the world himself. Therefore, knowing that he already passed his prime, he would have to live long enough to bring his plan to fruition. Having lived in the shadows for many years, the younger brother would finally witness the event that would grant him the power to play an active role in his crusade. As he travelled through the world, one day he would come across the ruins of the Kannabi Bridge and find a young, dying shinobi burried alive under the crushing weight of rock boulders.This Shinobi was non other than Uchiha Obito. Unsuspecting, the younger brother watched the scene when Obito suddenly began to partially phase through the rocks. Yet unable to fully comprehend what he witnessed, the Sage?s son was assured that the young shinobi at the verge of death unknowingly used a complex jutsu, which allowed him to slip through solid objects. But it was to late for the young shinobi, solely his head reaching out, he was crushed to death. But it was in the sage?s son favor, Obito?s Sharingan, undoubtedly the source of this unknown power, was still intact. The younger brother would not hesitate for a second, he implanted the remaining eye into his own. Possessing the ultimate body and life force, the sage?s son was able to activate the Sharingans power to a massive extent, even withstanding the strain of Space-Time-Ninjutsu on himself.
The time for action had come, he was untouchable... So far!

Here it is, the final image.

This

In the mid-left section. Tobi, none other than the Rikudo Sage?s younger son. Even the resemblance is undeniable.

Thats about it, i hope you like it


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## Ezekial (Aug 15, 2012)

TL;DR I got the jist of it... Tobi is the younger son? almost as bad as Tobito theories


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## Hossaim (Aug 15, 2012)

Problem: He lived 1000 years ago. Should be dead at this point.


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## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> This isn't the point:
> 
> 
> 
> Look at this, it's clear that skin color is brown. If the feets are different, that means the body parts may be belong to different people.


If that picture's so accurate then what happened to the rest of his scars? -.-





> You're saying all the time that the masked man was Madara until the x point of the story. And then Obito became Tobi and continued Madara's job.


When did I say that? There's only one Tobi.



> But, when I say Tobi's skin color is darker, you're exemplifying that the one who fought Minato was white.


Well, yeah. There's only one Tobi.



> Why does it need to be as you told every time?


What do you mean? I'm stating the obvious. Tobi's skin color was white in the anime when he fought Minato. You think I can control skin color?



> But if we're trying to find out who Tobi is, his skin color has more value


Not if it's from the anime. Never look in the anime for evidence. 





> than assumptions like saying Madara gave his eyes to Nagato when Nagato was 9 and lived a short time10-15 years...


Or like the assumption that he died when Nagato was little?


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 15, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> They ask character designs to Kishi himself not me,


They actually don't. There is some communication but nothing that detailed.


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## EvilHina (Aug 15, 2012)

Where do you get your number from , is it stated when the sage lived ? and is there evidence on how long he lived? just asking , this would have to be answered to become a problem


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## That Draconian Guy (Aug 15, 2012)

EvilHina said:


> Where do you get your number from , is it stated when the sage lived ? and is there evidence on how long he lived? just asking , this would have to be answered to become a problem


but arent Ma and Pa nearly that old and think RS is a myth?


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## Mugivara (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> If that picture's so accurate then what happened to the rest of his scars? -.-
> 
> *If there are no scars doesn't it mean that there may be different bodies? The one who has scars and the other one who has darker face.*
> 
> ...



*Character design and story processing are different things. If Naruto is blond, designers have to peint him yellow. I'm sure that designers can't draw Tobi different then Kishi's "Tobi mold".*



Dragonus Nesha said:


> They actually don't. There is some communication but nothing that detailed.



Of course, you're right, if they asked everything, there wouldn't be these story changements.

But Tobi is not an ordinary thing, he's at the moment, the main villain of the manga. So, animators cannot draw him yellow or orange. In the pic I've attached there is an obvious diference between white Tobi and dark Tobi. I'm sure that they take advise from Kishi as he stated in his last interview that one of the designers asked him when he'll finish the manga.


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## Osaeri (Aug 15, 2012)

some people are forgetting that half his body could be made of zetsu goo, the zetsu goo could be different color from his actual body just a note.

from what i've noticed, the right side of his body doesn't seem to effect him at all,(fight with minato, konan, torune & fu) p.s i haven't double checked the mangas if its true but the zetsu goo as white and his diff skin color still stands


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## Footmax (Aug 15, 2012)

Link removed
Tobi's skin color is white in the manga... the anime isn't always accurate contrary to Kishimoto.



			
				Mugivara said:
			
		

> Look at this, it's clear that skin color is brown. If the feets are different, that means the body parts may be belong to different people.



Then it would be bad writing, because in the manga, his feets, arms and face have the same skin color (otherwise we could tell the difference)...


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## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

Mugivara said:
			
		

> If there are no scars doesn't it mean that there may be different bodies? The one who has scars and the other one who has darker face.


Except when you see that scene in the manga, he clearly still has scars. And why would Tobi constantly switch bodies. Why would they all have the same eye and hairstyle? Why the same eyeshape?



> You can find it as following:
> 
> "-Was the man controlling Yagura Tobi/Obito the whole time or it was originally Madara, then Obito took his role? "
> 
> ...


When did I wright that?



> If the difference is obvious it means you accepted that there are more than one body.


No I haven't. Not at all.



> Character design and story processing are different things. If Naruto is blond, designers have to peint him yellow. I'm sure that designers can't draw Tobi different then Kishi's "Tobi mold".


Mold?

Anyway, the anime is shit when it comes to theories. Tobi clearly had his scars in the manga at that scene, but not in the anime.


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## Escargon (Aug 15, 2012)

But you can clearly see that Tobi is white behind the mask and when he shows his old Madara/Obito with scars face to Sasuke. 

If Tobi darker, it would be painted gray in the manga. Either its a color failure, he got bombdust on his face or they are just retarded and do whatever they want as they did with Tobis left hand in the flashback of Kisame that never appeared in the manga. Same thing with making Pain look totally retarded.

And i noticed two other failures:

1. The wrinkles or scars magically disappears. 

2. They painted his shadowed  (look: chapter 510) face as it really were black, they didnt bother shadowing his eye on the right side.

I mean how the fk can they miss it? Suckers.


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## enix04 (Aug 15, 2012)

What if the scars aren't scars, what if they're actually impressions on his face from him wearing those goggles all the time, they're right where the goggles would be. Also, I've been waiting for this day, I really hope it's Obito but I feel like kishi is trolling hard ;_;


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## Mugivara (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Except when you see that scene in the manga, he clearly still has scars. And why would Tobi constantly switch bodies. Why would they all have the same eye and hairstyle? Why the same eyeshape?
> 
> When did I wright that?
> 
> ...





Footmax said:


> Link removed
> Tobi's skin color is white in the manga... the anime isn't always accurate contrary to Kishimoto.
> 
> 
> ...





Escargon said:


> But you can clearly see that Tobi is white behind the mask and when he shows his old Madara/Obito with scars face to Sasuke.
> 
> If Tobi darker, it would be painted gray in the manga. Either its a color failure, he got bombdust on his face or they are just retarded and do whatever they want as they did with Tobis left hand in the flashback of Kisame that never appeared in the manga. Same thing with making Pain look totally retarded.
> 
> ...



I guess you 3 are right about darker skin issue. But it still seems a little suspicious


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 15, 2012)

Okay, I think, barring some unforeseen posting hurricane, this should be the last thread we have about this before the reveal.


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## Cain (Aug 15, 2012)

He may be old but thats probably what u get for being evil.  It's clear now more than ever Obito = Tobi


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## Footmax (Aug 15, 2012)

How old was Kakashi during Kakashi Gaiden ?
I know that Rin and Obito were 13 because Obito died at that age and they graduated from the Academy at 9.
BUT Kakashi graduated at 5, if he joined Team Minato at that age (only an assumption), he should have been 9 during KG.

Is there any proof that Kakashi was 13 during the events of Kakashi Gaiden ?


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## Thebaxman (Aug 15, 2012)

Footmax said:


> How old was Kakashi during Kakashi Gaiden ?
> I know that Rin and Obito were 13 because Obito died at that age and they graduated from the Academy at 9.
> BUT Kakashi graduated at 5, if he joined Team Minato at that age (only an assumption), he should have been 9 during KG.
> 
> Is there any proof that Kakashi was 13 during the events of Kakashi Gaiden ?




 How about you learn the timeline, then come back and bring some valid points in to the discussion. Thank you


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 15, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> How about you learn the timeline, then come back and bring some valid points in to the discussion. Thank you



How about you bring proof instead of calling people out like that without any of your own?


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## insane111 (Aug 15, 2012)

Footmax said:


> How old was Kakashi during Kakashi Gaiden ?
> I know that Rin and Obito were 13 because Obito died at that age and they graduated from the Academy at 9.
> BUT Kakashi graduated at 5, if he joined Team Minato at that age (only an assumption), he should have been 9 during KG.
> 
> Is there any proof that Kakashi was 13 during the events of Kakashi Gaiden ?



Not sure, but it seems like common sense based off their appearance. A 9 year old Kakashi wouldn't be the same height as Obito and Rin


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## imsogettingbanned (Aug 15, 2012)

Tobito fans are so gonna get hit hard in the back!

Haven't you guys ever wondered, kishi never, never ever lets the obvious happen.

And for those people who consider tobi being obito is a *twist* 

It ain't.

Tobi is not, and when it will be revealed, could never have been obito.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 15, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> Haven't you guys ever wondered, kishi never, never ever lets the obvious happen.



Ahahaha, have you even read this manga? 

Minato being Naruto's dad was obvious from day 1.


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## insane111 (Aug 15, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Ahahaha, have you even read this manga?
> 
> Minato being Naruto's dad was obvious from day 1.



I think your sarcasm detector is broken 

edit: oh reading that in context I guess he actually is serious


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## imsogettingbanned (Aug 15, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Ahahaha, have you even read this manga?
> 
> Minato being Naruto's dad was obvious from day 1.



Minato being naruto's dad I guess was almost known from day one. -__-
Also Kishi himself had given many hints in jump interviews about naruto's father.


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## AMtrack (Aug 15, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> How about you learn the timeline, then come back and bring some valid points in to the discussion. Thank you



No one even knows the timeline >_> its never actually been given to us.  Only hints and pieces here and there.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Aug 15, 2012)

Tobi canot be Obito, that guy is dead. Kakashi even met him when he was temorary in the afterlife during the Pain invasion remember ? Plus , Tobi looked like an adult man when he was fighting Minato. 
My bett is that Tobi is Izuna using various eyes from different Uchiha.


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## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

baxman said:
			
		

> I seriously hope you don't think that the eye shape and what their eyes look like when they're closed matters to Kishi.


Yes, actually. it matters alot. Have you not noticed the difference between other characters eyes? Pay more attention to detail because, right now it just seems like you're in denial considering you can't come up with a good argument.



			
				enix04 said:
			
		

> What if the scars aren't scars, what if they're actually impressions on his face from him wearing those goggles all the time, they're right where the goggles would be.


Hm? No they're not. You can clearly see the scars all the way down the right side of his face. And how would wearing the goggles for so long give him a forever lasting impression like that? He didn't have it in Gaiden and he hasn't even had his goggles since. 





> Also, I've been waiting for this day, I really hope it's Obito but I feel like kishi is trolling hard ;_;


Don't worry. He's Obito. It will be revealed soon enough.



			
				First Tsurugi said:
			
		

> Okay, I think, barring some unforeseen posting hurricane, this should be the last thread we have about this before the reveal.


True.

 I'm gonna miss this thread.


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## Thebaxman (Aug 15, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> How about you bring proof instead of calling people out like that without any of your own?



Kakashi is 8-9 years older than Itachi. If Itachi was 4 during the Third Shinobi World War then how old is Kakashi during the Gaiden?

 You can do the math

Seriously, stop with the Kakashi was 9 years old bullshit. It's not true, anybody who reads Naruto should know this.

Also, Sasuke was an infant during Nine-tails Attack, Kakashi is 13-14 years older than Sasuke.

 You can do the math

Got it? Good.


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## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> Tobito fans are so gonna get hit hard in the back!






> Haven't you guys ever wondered, kishi never, never ever lets the obvious happen.


wut.

Who was the most obvious choice for Naruto's father?: *Minato*
Who was Naruto's father?: *Minato*

Who was the most obvious choice for Pain?: *Nagato*
Who was Pain?: *Nagato*

Who was the most obvious choice for the sixth coffin?: *Madara*
Who was in the sixth coffin?: *Madara*

I'm sensing a pattern here!



> And for those people who consider tobi being obito is a *twist*
> 
> It ain't.


It's one helluva twist for casual fans who don't spend all their time analyzing every single sentence and panel for clues to who Tobi is.



> Tobi is not, and when it will be revealed, could never have been obito.


U mad, bro?



†_Camorra_† said:


> Tobi canot be Obito, that guy is dead. Kakashi even met him when he was temorary in the afterlife during the Pain invasion remember ?


That was only in the anime. It was never in the manga.



> Plus , Tobi looked like an adult man when he was fighting Minato.
> My bett is that Tobi is Izuna using various eyes from different Uchiha.


What, so now it's impossible for a 15-16 year old to be 5'7?



			
				imsogettingbanned said:
			
		

> Tobi being Obito I guess was almost known from day one. -__-
> Also Kishi himself had given many hints in jump interviews and in the manga about Tobi's identity.


See, if you change Naruto's father with Tobi, the same thing still applies.

So basically, your logic sucks.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Who was the most obvious choice for Pain?: *Nagato*
> Who was Pain?: *Nagato*


Actually the obvious choice was Yahiko. Jiraiya had to go through and tell us, "No."


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## imsogettingbanned (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What, so now it's impossible for a 15-16 year old to be 5'7?



But isn't it impossible for 15-16 year old to master the techniques of shinobi nevertheless sharingan (MS for that matter) and be a match for his former sensei a.k.a almost invincible fourth hokage while controlling the Kyubi after killing elite guards that too after just about an year when he managed to awaken his sharingan??


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## Yachiru (Aug 15, 2012)

To be fair, everyone thought that the Akatsuki Leader is actually Minato and they had hints to back that up ._.

But yeh, you really can't deny the obvious evidence for Tobito. Tobi is screaming mad at Kakashi for making promises in front of his friends' graves. Only Obito would do such a thing, Izuna (or anyone else) has no reason to do such a thing.


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## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

thebaxman said:
			
		

> Yachiru said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Probably what he would say.


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## Sesshy55 (Aug 15, 2012)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Tobi canot be Obito, that guy is dead. Kakashi even met him when he was temorary in the afterlife during the Pain invasion remember?





ObitoUchiha111 said:


> :
> That was only in the anime. It was never in the manga.



There is no damn way Kishi would let that happen if he planned Obito to be Tobi, anime or not. That is proof enough for me that it is definitely not Obito.


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## imsogettingbanned (Aug 15, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> But yeh, you really can't deny the obvious evidence for Tobito. Tobi is screaming mad at Kakashi for making promises in front of his friends' graves. Only Obito would do such a thing, Izuna (or anyone else) has no reason to do such a thing.



LOL. And why in the world would obito give a damn for what jiraiya and Minato entrusted naruto with???
It is for everyone to acknowledge that tobi knows everything about everyone around him. 

Just answer this?
What made Obito so mad in just a year's time that he went as far as killing everyone in his way including his former sensei, controlling kyubi, and wanting to control the world??
Just a so called "excuse" from kakashi in front of his grave???


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 15, 2012)

Sesshy55 said:


> There is no damn way Kishi would let that happen if he planned Obito to be Tobi, anime or not. That is proof enough for me that it is definitely not Obito.



I don't watch the anime, did he actually meet Obito or did he just hear his words like he did in the manga?


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## Raventhal (Aug 15, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> But isn't it impossible for 15-16 year old to master the techniques of shinobi nevertheless sharingan (MS for that matter) and be a match for his former sensei a.k.a almost invincible fourth hokage while controlling the Kyubi after killing elite guards that too after just about an year when he managed to awaken his sharingan??



Are you being sarcastic or serious?  Have you seen Sasuke, Naruto, Gaara, Itachi lol?


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## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

Sesshy55 said:
			
		

> There is no damn way Kishi would let that happen if he planned Obito to be Tobi, anime or not. That is proof enough for me that it is definitely not Obito.



There's no way Kishi would let Pain turn into a roadrunner if he planned Pain to be a serious villain. That is proof enough for me that Pain was intended to be a joke villain.

There's no way Kishi would let Tobi's skin color be super dark during his fight with Konan when we've seen in the manga that it is much lighter than that. That is proof enough for me that Tobi's skin color constantly changes.

There's no way that Kishi would let Tobi's scars/wrinkles disappear during his anime fight with Konan. That is proof enough for me that Tobi can make his scars/wrinkles disappear at will.

See what I'm getting at. I doubt Kishi had any idea the anime team was putting that in there.



			
				First Tsurugi said:
			
		

> I don't watch the anime, did he actually meet Obito or did he just hear his words like he did in the manga?


He just saw Obito's ghost or something and he flew away. He was in some kind of rainbow land or some shit. I highly doubt Kishi was involved.

I don't watch the anime either but I did manage to catch that scene. It made no sense. -.-



			
				imsogettingbanned said:
			
		

> LOL. And why in the world would obito give a damn for what jiraiya and Minato entrusted naruto with???
> It is for everyone to acknowledge that tobi knows everything about everyone around him.


No. It's because Tobi understands what it's like to entrust someone with someone or something important and have them lazily fail you. (Obito entrusted Kakashi with Rin's safety.



> Just answer this?
> What made Obito so mad in just a year's time that he went as far as killing everyone in his way including his former sensei, controlling kyubi, and wanting to control the world??


Rin's death, war, Madara's mindfucking.

Btw it was more like 2-3 years.


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## imsogettingbanned (Aug 15, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Are you being sarcastic or serious?  Have you seen Sasuke, Naruto, Gaara, Itachi lol?



Sasuke used to pee in pants with horror after a year he activated his sharingan.

It took naruto 5 years (more or less) to reach where he is, that too with the help of kakashi, Jiraiya and toad sages.

Gaara was a jinchuuriki, natural for him to be strong. He is not over powerful either.

Itachi was a born genius who "mastered" his sharingan at the age of 8.
He didn't do anything special in such short span of time.


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## imsogettingbanned (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No. It's because Tobi understands what it's like to entrust someone with someone or something important and have them lazily fail you. (Obito entrusted Kakashi with Rin's safety.



I meant... now its obito's business all of a sudden to stalk naruto while training with his teacher or minato having final conversation with his only son.
Or was he stalking naruto so that someone sooner or later would entrust him with atleast something.


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## Raventhal (Aug 15, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> Sasuke used to pee in pants with horror after a year he activated his sharingan.
> 
> It took naruto 5 years (more or less) to reach where he is, that too with the help of kakashi, Jiraiya and toad sages.
> 
> ...



Gaara is one of the most powerful characters in the manga without being a Jin.  Naruto and Sasuke's power escalation started post time skip.  

We already saw Obito was a late bloomer and his eye opened up at 2 tomoe at 13 and 1-2 years later was MS with a powerful jutsu regardless if the eye is Obito's head or not.


----------



## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:
			
		

> I meant... now its obito's business all of a sudden to stalk naruto while training with his teacher or minato having final conversation with his only son.
> Or was he stalking naruto so that someone sooner or later would entrust him with atleast something.


?

What do you mean? He responded to Naruto's saying "There are many things I was entrusted with!"

He can relate because he entrusted Kakashi with Rin's safety.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> ?
> 
> What do you mean? He responded to Naruto's saying "There are many things I was entrusted with!"
> 
> He can relate because he entrusted Kakashi with Rin's safety.



He mentioned jiraiya and fourth hokage in his statement, if you check your sources again.


----------



## Sesshy55 (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> There's no way Kishi would let Pain turn into a roadrunner if he planned Pain to be a serious villain. That is proof enough for me that Pain was intended to be a joke villain.
> 
> There's no way Kishi would let Tobi's skin color be super dark during his fight with Konan when we've seen in the manga that it is much lighter than that. That is proof enough for me that Tobi's skin color constantly changes.
> 
> ...




You're in denial if you think Kishi had no say in something THAT big, even during that time in the anime, Tobito theories were all over the place, whoever deals with the anime would not throw him in there without consulting Kishi about it. Someone would get fired. Dark skin and scars/wrinkles are nothing compared to this.

So unless they're planning to have a completely different ending for the anime, I seriously doubt Obito is Tobi.


----------



## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:
			
		

> He mentioned jiraiya and fourth hokage in his statement, if you check your sources again.


What does that have to do with anything?



			
				Sesshy55 said:
			
		

> You're in denial if you think Kishi had no say in something THAT big, even during that time in the anime, Tobito theories were all over the place, whoever deals with the anime would not throw him in there without consulting Kishi about it. Someone would get fired. Dark skin and scars/wrinkles are nothing compared to this.
> 
> So unless they're planning to have a completely different ending for the anime, I seriously doubt Obito is Tobi.


I assure you I'm not in denial. I'm really confident in the Tobito theory.

Now, the anime fucks up literally everything. So I would suggest leaving it out of debates here unless _you_ want to come off as the one who's in denial. If you want to try to disprove the theory, then by all means, try. Just use strictly canon material. If it wasn't said by Kishi or in the manga then I don't care.


----------



## Talis (Aug 15, 2012)

Current Naruto anime sux, look at Zabuza's flashback.


----------



## Rika24 (Aug 15, 2012)

it says i can't vote in the poll because it's closed


----------



## Rick Hunter (Aug 15, 2012)

Never trust animes as canon. Look at dragon ball (GT or Z fillers) or saint seiya. From what I understand, mangakas don't own the anime rights. They can be consultants, but they don't have any decision making power over what the company wants to do with the anime.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Probably what he would say.



I love how I've never supported Kagami or Izuna once 

Everytime I post a fact that disproves a theory, it's guaranteed that you will reply to me something related to me supporting Kagami.

Do you think this is a good form of debating? Completely changing the subject instead of analysing the point I just made is the worst thing you can do in this situation.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 15, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Kakashi is 8-9 years older than Itachi. If Itachi was 4 during the Third Shinobi World War then how old is Kakashi during the Gaiden?
> 
> You can do the math
> 
> ...



First Tsurugi, did you see this? He just called you out and your bullshit and I've noticed how you have conveniently chosen to not reply to his statement. Is this what Tobito theorist do? They get proven wrong and they just stop answering?

Do the math bro, and come back and tell me that Kakashi was a 9 year old Jounin.


----------



## Golden Witch (Aug 15, 2012)

Still quite sure the Uchiha Rebels during Tobiramas Era play a role somehow considering they are stated to have wanted to follow into Madaras footsteps after getting screwed over by Tobirama.

Fits damn well to the fact of "Madara = Ideal".
Who best to follow this Ideal than the ones who are stated of wanting to follow him.


----------



## l1fted (Aug 15, 2012)

I logged on to this site for the first time in like 2 years just to say HAH! I knew it was Obito all along come on people TOBI - OBITO it's basically the same name, then the same hair, then the same eye hole, then the fact that he didn't take an eye out to put in the rinnegan, then the orange goggles to the orange mask. 

All the people saying "the only thing confirmed is that he has obito's eye" or "we still don't know for sure" are the people who were jumping down other peoples throat for posting threads like this: 



you were wrong, we were right, deal with it. 

Because if this is a red herring then it's a bad one, possessing like no tact what so ever. It's one thing to hint at something and then pull in a entirely different direction, it's an entirely different thing to scream something at the top of your lungs dead in the face of your reader and then go "lol jk I fooled you." give kishi some credit he's a pretty good story teller I strongly doubt he'd pull something as tactless as that. 

That said, wasn't this supposed to be the climax of the fight with Tobi? I could of sworn I read somewhere "Next week color page for climax of fight with Tobi!" or something of that nature, I'm not looking forward to it taking another 2 months to wrap this battle up. Then were going to have to deal with like a month of Sasuke finding whatever the hell it is he's looking for with pedorochimaru then he's going to come back and fight Madara for like 3 months possibly with Naruto. Sighhhh...


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 15, 2012)

To all the people who think only one year passed between Kakashi Gaiden and Tobi's attack:

Do you honestly think Minato was Hokage for less than a year?


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 15, 2012)

Once everyone said Tobi is Madara.... Or Izuna or elder son of SO6P... Or ramen guy...

Now, everyone is saying it was obvious that Tobi was Obito...

Ooo yes you're right

And I'm saying Tobi is only Obito's body and Danzo controls him...come at me all



Pretty Good Satan said:


> To all the people who think only one year passed between Kakashi Gaiden and Tobi's attack:
> 
> Do you honestly think Minato was Hokage for less than a year?



It's fact, we don't say it


----------



## Rika24 (Aug 15, 2012)

Rick Hunter said:


> Never trust animes as canon. Look at dragon ball (GT or Z fillers) or saint seiya. From what I understand, mangakas don't own the anime rights. They can be consultants, but they don't have any decision making power over what the company wants to do with the anime.



exactly, look at other anime like Flame of Recca and especially the first Fullmetal Alchemist

and for those going on about age, the Kyuubi attack happened October 10th (12 years before the start of the series), Kakashi's birthday is September 15th, so he was officially 14 at the time of the attack.

of course we don't know at what time Gaiden actually took place (sometime during the summer though most likely) only that Kakashi was 13. so we don't know exactly how long it had been since Obito "died." heck, if Gaiden took place in June or July it could have only been 4/5 months. 

from Kushina's flashback it looked like Kakashi was already in ANBU judging by his clothes, and he also looked like an adult already. 

Obito's birthday is February 2nd, and if they were all 13 during Gaiden, that would make Obito a few months younger than Kakashi, so he'd still be 13.

if Tobi is Obito, something had to have been done to him to make him that taller. so possibly Zetsu was slowly modifying his body?


----------



## Golden Witch (Aug 15, 2012)

> Do you honestly think Minato was Hokage for less than a year?



Yup.Whats so bad about that?
Oh I forgot, Minato fanboys can't take it.

Blame Tobi.Or this fantasy Natural Disaster.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 15, 2012)

ceralux said:


> First Tsurugi, did you see this? He just called you out and your bullshit and I've noticed how you have conveniently chosen to not reply to his statement. Is this what Tobito theorist do? They get proven wrong and they just stop answering?
> 
> Do the math bro, and come back and tell me that Kakashi was a 9 year old Jounin.



I never disputed that Kakashi was 13, I merely called him out on not providing any information in his rebuttal.

Would you like to engage me in debate or do you prefer to piggyback on the posting of other users?



Mugivara said:


> Once everyone said Tobi is Madara.... Or Izuna or elder son of SO6P... Or ramen guy...
> 
> Now, everyone is saying it was obvious that Tobi was Obito...
> 
> ...



Danzou is dead.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 15, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I never disputed that Kakashi was 13, I merely called him out on not providing any information in his rebuttal.
> 
> Would you like to engage me in debate or do you prefer to piggyback on the posting of other users?
> 
> ...



So, Obito and Madara and Orochimaru and Izuna and Deidara and more


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 15, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> So, Obito and Madara and Orochimaru and Izuna and Deidara and more



Izuna and Madara are/were canonically dead.

Deidara's first "death" was a fakeout which was revealed a few chapters after the fact.

Oro has made death a revolving door.

Obito's "death" is a case of "never found the body".

Danzou is canonically dead. He had his flashbacks, his emotional self realization, and his corpse was accounted for. There is no way he survived.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 15, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I never disputed that Kakashi was 13, I merely called him out on not providing any information in his rebuttal.
> 
> Would you like to engage me in debate or do you prefer to piggyback on the posting of other users?
> 
> ...



Well why do you choose to not respond? You reply to me acting like I really need proof to say why Kakashi wasn't 9 years old during the Gaiden. I'm not like you Tobito believers who go around talking about things that are ''confirmed'' yet have no *proof*.

Just don't go and start an argument and then stop replying. I don't think he wants to engage you in debate, you don't even reply most of the time.


----------



## Golden Witch (Aug 15, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> So, Obito and Madara and Orochimaru and Izuna and Deidara and more



In a manga where people refer to transplanting DNA,Eyes,Arms and faces, maybe.

....now I'm getting Cell vibes.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 15, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Izuna and Madara are/were canonically dead.
> 
> Deidara's first "death" was a fakeout which was revealed a few chapters after the fact.
> 
> ...



You're explaining their situations by using results. So in fact you did not know whether they can or they cannot return.

You(all members) think that you know who Danzo is and what he can do. Though, we're still finding out that Danzo was every where during ninja world is being dragged to destruction.

His philosophy is everywhere, his rules are everywhere... He's a real villain and real villains die last


----------



## ceralux (Aug 15, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I never disputed that Kakashi was 13, I merely called him out on not providing any information in his rebuttal.
> 
> Would you like to engage me in debate or do you prefer to piggyback on the posting of other users?



Why would I engage in a debate with someone who doesn't even reply back when proven wrong? He provided you with information after you called him out and you proceeded to continue posting in this thread without acknowledging him. Is that how you handle your debates? If so I don't want to bother with you.


----------



## Golden Witch (Aug 15, 2012)

I suppose Kishi does work in the typical manner of "Flashback = Death", unless you become a Edo Tensei, so Danzo can be ruled out.

Then again, Kishi is hardly a normal Mangaka however I doubt he takes it this far.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 15, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Well why do you choose to not respond? You reply to me acting like I really need proof to say why Kakashi wasn't 9 years old during the Gaiden. I'm not like you Tobito believers who go around talking about things that are ''confirmed'' yet have no *proof*.



The original poster asked if there was proof that Kakashi was 13 when he became a Jounin.

Your response was "lol learn the timeline loser".

There was no proof in this, it was more of a flame then anything. So I called you out on it.



ceralux said:


> Why would I engage in a debate with someone who doesn't even reply back when proven wrong? He provided you with information after you called him out and you proceeded to continue posting in this thread without acknowledging him. Is that how you handle your debates? If so I don't want to bother with you.



Okay so basically you have no content to add to this debate.

Kindly fuck off then.



Mugivara said:


> You're explaining their situations by using results. So in fact you did not know whether they can or they cannot return.
> 
> You(all members) think that you know who Danzo is and what he can do. Though, we're still finding out that Danzo was every where during ninja world is being dragged to destruction.
> 
> His philosophy is everywhere, his rules are everywhere... He's a real villain and real villains die last



Tobi's philosophy is nothing like Danzou's though.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 15, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> I suppose Kishi does work in the typical manner of "Flashback = Death", unless you become a Edo Tensei, so Danzo can be ruled out.
> 
> Then again, Kishi is hardly a normal Mangaka however I doubt he takes it this far.



Mine is a well fictionalised theory please read Explained 'em all in detail


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 15, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Tobi's philosophy is nothing like Danzou's though.



ROOT and the Bloody Mist Village had similar methods in forcing kids to kill each other as part of training...

..In a way that's similar to the Uchiha killing their closest friends to gain the MS.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 15, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> ROOT and the Bloody Mist Village had similar methods in forcing kids to kill each other as part of training...
> 
> ..In a way that's similar to the Uchiha killing their closest friends to gain the MS.



Not only this,

"I'm no one" comes from Danzo's root. And he made really important things in some part of all the characters.

- Kabuto
- Nagato
- Orochimaru
- Uchiha clan
- Itachi

Behind heavy suffer of these characters we can see Danzo.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 15, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> ROOT and the Bloody Mist Village had similar methods in forcing kids to kill each other as part of training...
> 
> ..In a way that's similar to the Uchiha killing their closest friends to gain the MS.



Tobi's time leading the Mist Village has barely been touched upon.

I don't think their similarly brutal methods are a substantial enough connection.



Mugivara said:


> Not only this,
> 
> "I'm no one" comes from Danzo's root. And he made really important things in some part of all the characters.
> 
> ...



None of the likely Tobi candidates were in Root at any point.

Obito never was, Izuna never was.

Kagami you could make an argument for I guess, but it would just be something else that would have to be invented along with the rest of his character. Not good writing.


----------



## Footmax (Aug 15, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Kakashi is 8-9 years older than Itachi. If Itachi was 4 during the Third Shinobi World War then how old is Kakashi during the Gaiden?
> 
> You can do the math
> 
> Seriously, stop with the Kakashi was 9 years old bullshit. It's not true, anybody who reads Naruto should know this.



How long did the Third Ninja World War last ?
It could have happened like this I think :

Kakashi Gaiden :
Kakashi : 9 yo
Itachi is born.

Around one year before that night :
Kakashi : 13 yo
Itachi : 4 yo 
End of the war.

That night (October 10th) :
Kakashi : 14 yo
Itachi : 4/5 yo
Sasuke is born.

Of course, I can be wrong... I don't know the timeline perfectly. I myself do not believe that Kakashi was 9 during Kakashi Gaiden because he looks older. I just wanted to know if there is evidence that he was indeed 13.


----------



## insane111 (Aug 15, 2012)

†_Camorra_† said:


> Tobi canot be Obito, that guy is dead. Kakashi even met him when he was temorary in the afterlife during the Pain invasion remember ? Plus , Tobi looked like an adult man when he was fighting Minato.
> My bett is that Tobi is Izuna using various eyes from different Uchiha.



Those scenes happened while he was still alive, they were just a dream. The Edo's pretty much flat out confirmed that there is no afterlife in Naruto.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 15, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> T
> 
> Okay so basically you have no content to add to this debate.
> 
> Kindly fuck off then.



You clearly have issues. I'm calling you out because all you're doing is debating and when you're proven wrong you IGNORE it and continue debating. What's the point of interacting with you when all you do is runaway when you're wrong? No point of talking with people like you.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 15, 2012)

ceralux said:


> You clearly have issues. I'm calling you out because all you're doing is debating and when you're proven wrong you IGNORE it and continue debating. What's the point of interacting with you when all you do is runaway when you're wrong? No point of talking with people like you.



You're obsessing over a single instance where I wasn't even proven wrong about anything.

I think you're the one with issues.


----------



## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> I love how I've never supported Kagami or Izuna once


Check your posts from a thread or 2 ago.



> Everytime I post a fact that disproves a theory, it's guaranteed that you will reply to me something related to me supporting Kagami.


Because that's what you seem to support. If it's not Kagami, then what theory do you support?



> Do you think this is a good form of debating? Completely changing the subject instead of analysing the point I just made is the worst thing you can do in this situation.


What do you mean? 



Scarlet Plague said:


> Still quite sure the Uchiha Rebels during Tobiramas Era play a role somehow considering they are stated to have wanted to follow into Madaras footsteps after getting screwed over by Tobirama.
> 
> Fits damn well to the fact of "Madara = Ideal".
> Who best to follow this Ideal than the ones who are stated of wanting to follow him.


*sigh* You don't have good reading comprehension, do you?



Mugivara said:


> Once everyone said Tobi is Madara.... Or Izuna or elder son of SO6P... Or ramen guy...


All more plausible than Danzo.



> Now, everyone is saying it was obvious that Tobi was Obito...


Because it is.



> Ooo yes you're right


Not sure if you're sarcastic or if we've converted you...



> And I'm saying Tobi is only Obito's body and Danzo controls him...come at me all


Tobi watched Danzo die...



Mugivara said:


> You(all members) think that you know who Danzo is and what he can do. Though, we're still finding out that Danzo was every where during ninja world is being dragged to destruction.






> His philosophy is everywhere, his rules are everywhere... He's a real villain and real villains die last


Tobi and Danzo have completely different philosophies.


----------



## Golden Witch (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *sigh* You don't have good reading comprehension, do you?



this point on
"Some Rebels began to follow into my footsteps."
/stand in front of Madara monument.

this point on
"Why did the masked man claim that he was Madara?"
"Madara is more than a man.He is an *IDEAL.*"

Definition of Ideal:


> One that is regarded as a standard or model of perfection or excellence.
> An ultimate object of endeavor; a goal.
> An honorable or worthy principle or aim.



Certainly I don't, more you being unable to accept anything else than Obito as a possibility.
Funny how I supposely lack reading comprehension, appearantly that only seems to be the case in this manga.
Read the SnK thread the Library 2.


----------



## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> this point on
> "Some Rebels began to follow into my footsteps."
> /stand in front of Madara monument.
> 
> ...


Maybe instead of reading comprehension I should have put that you don't understand Tobi's character.

Or the basic idea of a masked man in general.




> Certainly I don't, more you being unable to accept anything else than Obito as a possibility.


It's because I have reading comprehension that I can tell that Tobi is Obito. Re-read the past 4 chapters. If it doesn't tell you something then...


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Check your posts from a thread or 2 ago.
> 
> Because that's what you seem to support. If it's not Kagami, then what theory do you support?



That's what I seem to support? I never said it was Kagami once, I have never thought it was Kagami and I don't want it to be Kagami. 

Right now I think it's Izuna, but I don't have a stupid theory that goes along with some BS like the Tobito theory. I can't think of something so silly and expect people to believe it.


----------



## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

Thebaxman said:
			
		

> That's what I seem to support? I never said it was Kagami once, I have never thought it was Kagami and I don't want it to be Kagami.


Not sure what gave me that impression then. Well, whatever. Thanks for clearing that up.



> Right now I think it's Izuna, but I don't have a stupid theory that goes along with some BS like the Tobito theory. I can't think of something so silly and expect people to believe it.


Stupid? BS? Silly? You mean like Izuna just randomly stalking Kakashi and watching him at graves? Then mindfucking him in the recent chapters?


----------



## Rick Hunter (Aug 15, 2012)

You people are being too extreme in your opinions, why not just wait 1 more week?

Personnally I think everything tends to prove it's Obito. If half his body is indeed artifical, it explains everything. They both look like each others, his motivations are justified by Rin's death and brainwashing by Madara, his hate of Kakashi, his speeches about making the world a better place, etc... I don't understand how someone can deny all this.

But that's my personal opinion, and I don't really care about heated debates, and I can still be proven wrong, we never know. All I know is that some people will feel very stupid once we get a definitive answer concerning his identity.


----------



## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

I'd like to point out that Tobi and Obito having the exact same hairstyle actually _does_ have some significance.

Now look, for Tobi's reveal to be shocking we need to recognize the face behind the mask, right? Well, the more we can tell that Tobi looks like that person(whoever he is), the easier it will be to recognize him. Now, we can see that Tobi's face (or at least just the large amount that we can see of it) looks just like Obito's face. This, along with having the same hairstyle, would make it an almost instantaneous recognition.

With someone like Izuna, however, that we've only seen with long hair and only seen his face a few times, would make it hard to recognize him if he has a completely different hairstyle.

I know it's not extremely significant but I just felt it was something I should point out.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 15, 2012)

Rick Hunter said:


> You people are being too extreme in your opinions, why not just wait 1 more week?
> 
> Personnally I think everything tends to prove it's Obito. If half his body is indeed artifical, it explains everything. They both look like each others, his motivations are justified by Rin's death and brainwashing by Madara, his hate of Kakashi, his speeches about making the world a better place, etc... I don't understand how someone can deny all this.
> 
> But that's my personal opinion, and I don't really care about heated debates, and I can still be proven wrong, we never know. All I know is that some people will feel very stupid once we get a definitive answer concerning his identity.



I don't take these threads as seriously as most, which is why I'm not as active in them as some other posters.

I just tend to swoop in if I see an opportunity.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Stupid? BS? Silly? You mean like Izuna just randomly stalking Kakashi and watching him at graves? Then mindfucking him in the recent chapters?



Silly = Obito is Madara's disciple 
Silly = Obito had a personality change
Silly = Obito knows all these things
Silly = Tobito


----------



## Sesshy55 (Aug 15, 2012)

It's obviously Naruto. Those lines on his face are the lines Naruto has on his face!

An alternate timeline/dimension/whatever Naruto who went down a similar path but became the person Itachi warned Naruto not to become in their last encounter. Tobi also has a weird obsession with Sasuke, just like Naruto.

Simple as that.


----------



## Shadow Slayer (Aug 15, 2012)

Tobi is Obito. 597 says it all.


----------



## posternojutsu (Aug 15, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Silly = Obito is Madara's disciple
> *Silly = Obito had a personality change*
> Silly = Obito knows all these things
> Silly = Tobito



I guess Kishi doesn't find it to silly since the whole convo between Itachi and Naruto pretty much cements that he is willing to make such drastic changes. We have Naruto who tells people like Nagato bedtime stories even though he murdered Jiraya, brofists Bijuu and supposedly conquered his hate at the waterfall of truth....that...wait be careful you may become just like Tobi if you don't watch it. Given that, how is Obito turning into someone like Tobi so far fetched? It may be stupid...you may find it bad writing, but people have to stop acting like it isn't POSSIBLE given what Kishi has already shown us/hinted to us. 

Does this mean Tobi = Obito? No but as i said above what everyone else finds silly...Kishi seemingly does not.


----------



## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Silly = Obito is Madara's disciple


How's that silly?


> Silly = Obito had a personality change


This isn't silly either. Gaara, Neji, Zabuza, Kakashi, Sasuke, Kurama, Nagato, and Konan al had major personality changes. People can and do change.


> Silly = Obito knows all these things


So you're suggesting Tobi was born with all the knowledge he has now?


> Badass = Tobito


Fixed.

Now, for a list of my own:

*Silly = Izuna wearing a mask when he looks so much like Madara.*

*Silly = Madara claiming Izuna is dead when he's working with Tobi and Tobi is Izuna.*

*Silly = Izuna stalking Kakashi at graves and having such a personal vendetta against him.*

*Silly = Izuna being the main villain when we haven't even heard him utter one line.*

*SILLY = TOBIZUNA!*



Sesshy55 said:


> It's obviously Naruto. Those lines on his face are the lines Naruto has on his face!
> 
> An alternate timeline/dimension/whatever Naruto who went down a similar path but became the person Itachi warned Naruto not to become in their last encounter. Tobi also has a weird obsession with Sasuke, just like Naruto.
> 
> Simple as that.


I hope you're not serious. -.-



Shadow Slayer said:


> Tobi is Obito. 597 says it all.


----------



## Sesshy55 (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I hope you're not serious. -.-



Haven't you ever seen Fringe? There is an alternate dimension much like ours, but only slightly different. A black haired Naruto obviously went down a dark path at some point and failed in his moons eye plan in his dimension, so he's come to this one to do it.


----------



## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

Sesshy55 said:
			
		

> Haven't you ever seen Fringe? There is an alternate dimension much like ours, but only slightly different. A black haired Naruto obviously went down a dark path at some point and failed in his moons eye plan in his dimension, so he's come to this one to do it.


Or he's Obito who was just like Naruto and had the same hairstyle but black. Also had the same color scheme of orange and blue.


----------



## Shadow050 (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *I'd like to point out that Tobi and Obito having the exact same hairstyle actually does have some significance.*
> 
> Now look, for Tobi's reveal to be shocking we need to recognize the face behind the mask, right? Well, the more we can tell that Tobi looks like that person(whoever he is), the easier it will be to recognize him. Now, we can see that Tobi's face (or at least just the large amount that we can see of it) looks just like Obito's face. This, along with having the same hairstyle, would make it an almost instantaneous recognition.
> 
> ...



It has significance.... but the fact that his hair was long as all hell just a few years later has no significance?

his hair is short now, but when we saw him being found by Itachi his hair was long as hell.... 

Obito's hair was short... then like literally a year after his death, he's around the same height as minato and able to hold his own against Minato, and doesn't give the slightest clue AT ALL that he might be Obito... 

then a mere... 5-6 years later, his hair is all the way down his back... 



this guy's hair and height have grown at the most interesting rates ever....


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 15, 2012)

posternojutsu said:


> I guess Kishi doesn't find it to silly since the whole convo between Itachi and Naruto pretty much cements that he is willing to make such drastic changes. We have Naruto who tells people like Nagato bedtime stories even though he murdered Jiraya, brofists Bijuu and supposedly conquered his hate at the waterfall of truth....that...wait be careful you may become just like Tobi if you don't watch it. Given that, how is Obito turning into someone like Tobi so far fetched? It may be stupid...you may find it bad writing, but people have to stop acting like it isn't POSSIBLE given what Kishi has already shown us/hinted to us.
> 
> Does this mean Tobi = Obito? No but as i said above what everyone else finds silly...Kishi seemingly does not.



I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's silly. It is silly how Naruto changed Nagato, it would be silly if Obito had a personality change.


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## Yachiru (Aug 15, 2012)

Game over, it's Obito. Too much pointing at it.


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## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

Shadow050 said:


> It has significance.... but the fact that his hair was long as all hell just a few years later has no significance?
> 
> his hair is short now, but when we saw him being found by Itachi his hair was long as hell....


 I said it was significant for REVEAL purposes. And guess what, Tobi's hairstyle is currently the exact same as Obito's. Common sense, my friend. Use it.



> Obito's hair was short... then like literally a year after his death, he's around the same height as minato and able to hold his own against Minato,


Actually, it was more like 2 or even three years. 





> and doesn't give the slightest clue AT ALL that he might be Obito...


Why would he want to let Minato know he's Obito? but for the record, he did kind of give a small clue in the middle of their battle.



> then a mere... 5-6 years later, his hair is all the way down his back...
> 
> 
> 
> this guy's hair and height have grown at the most interesting rates ever....


I don't see the problem. Choji grew his hair out that long in only 2 years.



Thebaxman said:


> I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's silly. It is silly how Naruto changed Nagato, it would be silly if Obito had a personality change.


How is it silly for people to change personality? Do you know how boring and dull it would be if people just all stayed the same? It's not silly at all.

What would be the point if Tobi was just some douche bag who was evil all along? That would ruin the emotional part of his character.

If Tobi is Obito, it symbolizes and further expresses what Itachi said about how Naruto could become just like him. Quite a dramatic reveal.


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## Sareth (Aug 15, 2012)

Rikudou Sennin's Elder Son wasn't an option when I voted in this poll. I would've voted for him, otherwise.


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## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

Sareth said:
			
		

> Rikudou Sennin's Elder Son wasn't an option when I voted in this poll. I would've voted for him, otherwise.


Okay. Well, with that vote added, the Elder Son now has... 5 votes...


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## Sareth (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Okay. Well, with that vote added, the Elder Son now has... 5 votes...


Which makes it even sweeter when the big reveal comes.


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## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

Sareth said:
			
		

> Which makes it even sweeter when the big reveal comes.


**


----------



## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

*Spoiler*: _Check this out_ 







It fits. Kakashi said he still regrets it, and Tobi(Obito) said, "It's too late to regret". He said Kakashi opens his mouth so easily and no wish can ever come true in this world, then he goes on to tell Naruto about entrusting things. When Obito told Kakashi to protect Rin,  Kakashi easily opened his mouth and the WISH was ENTRUSTED.

The text on the page when Kakashi made the promise even specifically said "THE WISH IS ENTRUSTED!!"

This can't be a coincidence, guys. Seriously, why else would Rin's death still be unexplained, as well as how Kakashi got his MS? Think about that.

Kakashi talking to Obito at his grave was at the very end of Part 1, and those issues he has have yet to be resolved. What Kakashi said at the grave was obvious foreshadowing of Part 2 and it's main villain(Obito). Obito and Kakashi's relationship has also been foreshadowed ever since the beginning of Part 1. Tobi being Obito is the most logical way to tie up Kakashi's character and give him some closure. At a very early chapter, chapter 16, we see Kakashi sleeping and a picture of Team Minato by his bed. Then during Hiruzen's fight with Oro, he has flashbacks of all the recent shinobi, and Team Minato was one of the teams pictured: 
*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: _An extra note on Chapter 16_ 



Notice how the chapter that Obito first appears in(on that picture on the cover page) is titled: "Who are you?!" Referring to Haku, who was wearing a mask. Possible foreshadowing of Obito being a masked man?

Something else that's interesting is that the tree branch Haku was standing on looks exactly like the one Tobi was standing on after he got done fighting that 8-Man Squad. Obviously they're completely different places, but it was just a fun little observation.




Kakashi also visited the Memorial Stone for Obito during Hiruzen's funeral. 




The final villain having once been an exact parallel to Naruto and being an UCHIHA would mean alot. As well as him being a former pupil of Naruto's father. Obito would be like a Naruto gone evil and would fit as FV. It's like Minato entrusted his son to defeat his failed pupil who went evil. It fits perfectly. 

There's also Japanese mythology to support it and we all know how Kishi loves to base alot of his manga off of Japanese mythology. Here it is: 
*Spoiler*: __ 





> --------------Mythology in Japan-----------------
> First I'll present an overview of what some of you may know, as we will need it for further investigation, il'll keep it short, so bear with me:
> 
> 
> ...






One more thing. Kakashi was entrusted with protecting Rin, the girl Obito loved. But he failed and broke the promise. Now, Sakura entrusted Naruto with bringing Sasuke, the guy she loves, back from the darkness. Naruto has the chance to do what Kakashi couldn't, keep his promise. 

And this would fit in well with the theme of the new generation surpassing the previous. By defeating Obito, Naruto would be defeating and surpassing an essentially fallen, evil, Uchiha version of himself and a fallen evil friend of his sensei.

Obito also fits with the pupils surpassing their mentors theme, as Tobi's Space-Time Ninjutsu was stated on two occasions to be greater than Minato's.

Obito is like a Naruto gone wrong. Naruto is like an Obito gone right.

Kakashi's like a non-Uchiha Sasuke who went good. Obito's like an Uchiha Naruto who went evil.

There is also a parallel between Obito and Kakashi's and Naruto and Sasuke's techniques. naruto has the Rasengan(*Spiralling* chakra sphere) whereas Tobi(Obito) has that *spiral* teleporting Space-Time Ninjutsu. And there's obviously the parallels between Kakashi and Sasuke both having the chidori.

Also, take a good look at this: 
*Spoiler*: __ 





Pointing at someone is considered in Japan to signify that you know a person well and have an extreme "beef" with them.




Tobi being obito also fits with the theme of best friends becoming worst enemies:
Danzo Vs Hiruzen
Orochimaru Vs. Jiraiya
*Obito Vs. Kakashi*
Sasuke Vs. Naruto

Besides the supposed timeline issues, I don't see why people hate just the general concept of this theory. If fits with all of Kishi's themes, with Japanese mythology, and with Kishi's writing style. Tobi being Obito would be a fun and interesting way to tie up the story.

Now, to wrap things up, some complimentary images: 

But people still ignore all this in favor of supposed timeline "issues". Well, I say come at me, bros!


----------



## Sareth (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> But people still ignore all this in favor of supposed timeline "issues". Well, I say come at me, bros!


There are no timeline issues (at least none that can't be explained). The issue is, as I've told you before, that Tobi knows stuff, and speaks as if he was a very old person. That's why your theory fails. 

I'm certain that Obito's face is behind that mask, but he has to be possessed or controlled (maybe with genjutsu) by someone else. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense.

Madara implanting part of his soul into Obito is also possible, but that would be lame compared to what I think will be revealed.


----------



## Nic (Aug 15, 2012)

Sareth said:


> There are no timeline issues (at least none that can't be explained). The issue is, as I've told you before, that Tobi knows stuff, and speaks as if he was a very old person. That's why your theory fails.
> 
> I'm certain that Obito's face is behind that mask, but he has to be possessed or controlled (maybe with genjutsu) by someone else. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense.
> 
> Madara inplanting part of his soul into Obito is also possible, but that would be lame compared to what I think will be revealed.



Madara told him what he needed to know and the uchiha tablet did the rest.


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## Sareth (Aug 15, 2012)

Nic said:


> Madara told him what he needed to know and the uchiha tablet did the rest.


_"Do you have ANY idea how long I've waited for this moment?!"_

During the Kyuubi attack. Does that sound like a 14-15 year old Obito to you?


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## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 15, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> There's also Japanese mythology to support it(let me know if you want to see it) and we all know how Kishi loves to base alot of his manga off of Japanese mythology.



Sure.  I'd like to see it.


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## Sesshy55 (Aug 15, 2012)

Kisame recognized Tobi from when he was controlling Yagura and then now. Someone explain that.


----------



## Nic (Aug 15, 2012)

Sareth said:


> _"Do you have ANY idea how long I've waited for this moment?!"_
> 
> During the Kyuubi attack. Does that sound like a 14-15 year old Obito to you?



just like his words to Konan right?


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## Sareth (Aug 15, 2012)

Nic said:


> just like his words to Konan right?


Which are you referring to? He's spoken to Konan several times.


----------



## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

Nic said:
			
		

> just like his words to Konan right?


Tbh, he's actually got a point there. Tobi wasn't even posing as Madara so why say he was waiting such a long time? This, along with Tobi saying that he waited many years to complete the Moon's Eye Plan, are the only real problems I see with the theory.


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## NW (Aug 15, 2012)

Pretty Good Satan said:


> Sure.  I'd like to see it.


Kay. Here it is. It's a long read, lol.



> --------------Mythology in Japan-----------------
> First I'll present an overview of what some of you may know, as we will need it for further investigation, il'll keep it short, so bear with me:
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Rika24 (Aug 15, 2012)

Sareth said:


> There are no timeline issues (at least none that can't be explained). The issue is, as I've told you before, that Tobi knows stuff, and speaks as if he was a very old person. That's why your theory fails.
> 
> I'm certain that Obito's face is behind that mask, but he has to be possessed or controlled (maybe with genjutsu) by someone else. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense.
> 
> Madara implanting part of his soul into Obito is also possible, but that would be lame compared to what I think will be revealed.



that's my theory (though it was partially shot down when Madara was ETed) i still think he's being controlled somehow, but deep down i believe Obito's soul still remains be it possession or something else.  

plus, given the date of the Kyuubi attack, Obito would have still been 13 (the attack happened 12 years before the start of the series on Oct 10, Obito's birthday is Feb 2nd). Zetsu is involved somehow, especially since during the fight his arm dripped goo and blood

Obito was well aware that Minato could teleport
Minato asks if he's Madara, but after he pulls his hood down and Minato seemed shocked. why would he be shocked if he had guessed Madara, he was expecting him but realised Tobi was someone else

Obito was well aware that Minato could teleport
Zetsu goo mixed with blood

and someone said how Naruto and Obito have the same hair style and colors, and the goggles. i think the colors being reversed on Obito (more blue than orange) is also a sign of something


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## Mistshadow (Aug 16, 2012)

Sareth said:


> _"Do you have ANY idea how long I've waited for this moment?!"_
> 
> During the Kyuubi attack. Does that sound like a 14-15 year old Obito to you?





ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tbh, he's actually got a point there. Tobi wasn't even posing as Madara so why say he was waiting such a long time? This, along with Tobi saying that he waited many years to complete the Moon's Eye Plan, are the only real problems I see with the theory.



to a KID, 2 years is a LONG time. 
Also if you include the possibility that he saved himself without realizing it by entering the S/T dimension of his, and time flows differently, he may have been stuck there and waited a long time. 
When it comes to S/T you gotta look at the time factor too and not just the space attributes.

OK guys I'm going to give you TWO options and you pick the one that makes the MOST logical sense.
The eye came from Obito=FACT

Now first option: Was someone watching Kakashi and Obito the WHOLE time during this mission of the war, and during all missions of the war. Figured out that Obito's TWO tomoe sharingan which was nothing special would provide S/T jutsus. And thus decided to wait for him to die to steal so no one would notice. This someone who had no special S/T jutsu. How would he know it was special. Then said character TRAINED that sharingan to MS mode and was like "WOAH I GOT s/t now to use to get kyuubi"

Or second option: Obito somehow survived that cave in. Either his MS spontaneously and reactively activated to send him away, or Zetsu/Madara saved him in order to use for their plots. This makes more sense as he has always focuses on that ONE eye while tossing out left ones like candy. ALWAYS keeps that right eye. This would make more sense as Obito would have trained it and realized it himself, and no one had to know there was anything special about that eye to begin with until he gained that power.


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## BrisQuick (Aug 16, 2012)

I did not have time to read all of these posts. And I am a newbie to the forums so go easy on me, but it seems to me most of you are missing the obvious... Tobi could seemingly travel somewhere in time. Maybe not by traditional standards but with as crazy as the manga is getting these days it's more than possible he at least witnessed all the events he talks about without having his age at the time be an issue at all. His space/time jutsu is going to end up being the key to all of this I'm sure. I mean it really could be ANYONE when that comes into play. I have a buddy in Japan who is convinced (along with many of his friends) that it's actually Sasuke from the future. Now I don't buy that one bit but when you think about the implications of altering space and time there really isn't a wrong theory.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 16, 2012)

Sesshy55 said:


> Kisame recognized Tobi from when he was controlling Yagura and then now. Someone explain that.



What's there to explain?

They are the same person.



BrisQuick said:


> I did not have time to read all of these posts. And I am a newbie to the forums so go easy on me, but it seems to me most of you are missing the obvious... Tobi could seemingly travel somewhere in time. Maybe not by traditional standards but with as crazy as the manga is getting these days it's more than possible he at least witnessed all the events he talks about without having his age at the time be an issue at all. His space/time jutsu is going to end up being the key to all of this I'm sure. I mean it really could be ANYONE when that comes into play. I have a buddy in Japan who is convinced (along with many of his friends) that it's actually Sasuke from the future. Now I don't buy that one bit but when you think about the implications of altering space and time there really isn't a wrong theory.



I try not to suggest time travel as an explanation because the introduction of that element into the series would have the potential to screw with a lot of things.

That said, we do know of genjutsu that can alter one's perception of time.


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## BrisQuick (Aug 16, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I try not to suggest time travel as an explanation because the introduction of that element into the series would have the potential to screw with a lot of things.
> 
> That said, we do know of genjutsu that can alter one's perception of time.




I agree with that. But I am not suggesting Tobi actually travels through time with his body. But with his abilities its not crazy to think he could have "viewed" events through time. It would explain how he knows so much. And it wouldn't really makes things TOO crazy because he wouldn't be able to affect anything if he was just witnessing it.


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## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

Mistshadow said:
			
		

> to a KID, 2 years is a LONG time.
> Also if you include the possibility that he saved himself without realizing it by entering the S/T dimension of his, and time flows differently, he may have been stuck there and waited a long time.
> When it comes to S/T you gotta look at the time factor too and not just the space attributes.
> 
> ...


Holy shit, damn. I'm a supporter of this theory, you know.

Obviously, it's option 2. I was just saying that what Tobi said was suspicious, but never did I say that it put that big of a dent in the theory. I mean seriously, the Tobito theory is like the Titanic of Tobi theories, except it's so awesome and powerful that not even an iceberg can stop it.

....lol.


----------



## Shadow Slayer (Aug 16, 2012)

Tobi=Obito would be the biggest surprise. Aside from all the other evidence thats the only reason I see his identity being hidden for so long. That is gonn be a major shocker. It's either that or madara's brother


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## ShadeX23 (Aug 16, 2012)

Well, I got some theories myself, but first off, I just wanna say that I'm new and I'm glad to be here! I just hope I don't get tooled on too much if I have a few inaccuracies with my theory, but I'm definitely open to corrections and all that stuff.

The latest issue was very telling, and we learned 2 big things about Tobi: he has Obito's right eye, and he has a major beef with Kakashi for some unclear reason. Now, obvious spoilers ahead, with that said and all prior knowledge of Tobi out in the open, here's some guesses as to who he could be..

Now it could be Obito. Yeah, I know, predictable, but hey, this chapter majorly hinted at it, especially now that it's confirmed that Tobi has his eye. Plus, Tobi seems to not really be a whole person, given some of his dialog and the fact that he falls apart rather easily, and can put himself back together just as easily. Then there's the markings on his face, which might not be wrinkled, but may actually contain scars. Finally, there's the relationship to Kakashi. 

Okay, so we settled that, but how is this possible? I mean, Obito would have been only 16-17 during the 9-Tails attack, not to mention that he's just a kid when compared to Madara, who he intimately knows the history of.. so what gives? It just doesn't add up. But it's not so simple as saying that Tobi is Obito. Consider what Tobi's limbs seem to be made up of; the same material as White Zetsu. And this was practically confirmed when Tobi was seen regenerating a lost arm at the statue of Hashirama that he claimed to have cultivated. So is it possible that Obito was reconstructed by Zetsu? Perhaps.

But for what purpose, exactly? Why would Zetsu, or perhaps even Madara himself, take interest in a crushed-up kid who just woke up his sharingan? Plus, how would that explain how Tobi seems to BE Madara, down to the chakra? (which Kurama seemed to recognized when he was freed from Kushina) It just doesn't make sense.. unless you consider Zetsu's abilities. White Zetsu can make himself into a perfect physical clone of someone, _down to the chakra_, as proven when he made himself look like Neji or Kisame, whereas Black Zetsu has the power to "record" things that he sees.. and can show them to Tobi.

Now, we all know Madara is an egotistical monster who wants to lord over all creation with the Infinite Tsukuyomi. We also know that he knows Tobi, planned to be revived by Nagato's rinnegan, survived his fight with Hashirama and lived for an unspecified amount of time afterwards, and played a roll in founding Akatsuki. With this knowledge, is it a stretch to assume that Zetsu also worked for him? Also, who's to say that he may have wanted someone to continue his legacy while he was dead and waiting to be revived by Nagato? 

In short, what if Madara wanted a clone of himself to carry on his work while he was waiting to make his true return? Someone to carry the torch, so to speak, and keep his legacy alive while he wasn't? I mean, who would better serve Madara than himself? It makes sense considering just how much Tobi knows about Madara's history, and how Kurama could distinguish his chakra. But it goes beyond that - Madara probably needed an Uchiha for a base, one who he could manipulate and turn to his side in order to ensure cooperation. And this is the final piece of the puzzle, and how Obito's eye is able to use a mangekyo-like technique in order to manipulate time/space: Rin. 

Obito treasured Rin and even said he loved her. One of his last wishes to Kakashi was for him to keep Rin safe, and one of his dying regrets was being unable to confess his true feelings to her. What if her death (and yes, Kakashi confirmed that she died) is how both he and Kakashi awakened their mangekyo? Furthermore it would explain his grudge against Kakashi, because honestly, why else would he hate the guy? He didn't seem bitter about his own death after all. And finally, what if in a sick twist to manipulate Obito, Madara was the one who killed Rin himself in order to turn Obito into what we know him as today? 

Of course, Tobi was around even before Obito, but then he was sporting long hair and operated entirely in the shadows. I wholeheartedly believe that this was Madara, and the reason he wore a mask was to hide his shame and identity, since he was believed to be dead. Also, it may have had one eye due to the fact that, in order to escape his death at Hashirama's hands, he used Izinagi, which left his left eye blind. Food for thought.

Of course, there's a possibility that I'm wrong. Duh. I don't even think this theory covers quite all the bases, but it would make the most sense if he is Obito. Or, consider this: it's an Uchiha who was close to Obito. Someone who felt incredible anguish at his death, took his eye, and decided to make a better world in his memory? But perhaps, as all tragic villains do, he just became overwhelmed with grief and anger on the way. But who would this person be? 

Shisui? Is he related to Obito? Were they maybe brothers or friends? Possibly. I mean, he had to have awakened his own Mangekyo with the death of someone close to him, not to mention that he had genjutsus involving mental manipulation, which Tobi used in controlling Yagura, as well as getting the whereabouts of Nagato's corpse from Konan. Not to mention that Tobi met Danzo a little before the Uchiha clan was slaughtered, and we know that Shisui and Danzo had a scuffle at around that time in which Danzo obtained his eye. And of course he's been brought up an awful lot in the manga as of late....

But.. he just seemed like such a kind-hearted person, who loved his village and clan. He showed no malice whatsoever, so why would he do anything? Plus, from what we've seen, his eyes do not look anything like Tobi's (in part thanks to Shisui's man-scara marks at the ends of his eyes), plus Shisui didn't seem made up of Zetsu goo. Still, the similarities in hair, other facial features, and certain ocular powers give me the hunch that he's somehow connected to Tobi, as well as the fact that Tobi didn't seem too happy about Kabuto's offer to revive him with Edo Tensai, even though he could have had Tobi provided the DNA in his possession. 

Now what about Kagami or Izuna? Eh.. I'm not so sure. Tobi clearly knows Kakashi on a personal level. It's undeniable. Plus, why would Tobi's big dramatic reveal be someone none of the main characters recognize? His reveal should shock the protagonists just as much as it does us, or else it'd just be.. kinda silly. *Tobi takes off his mask* Kakashi: "Wait.. who are you?!" Yeah, it just would be kinda empty. Not to mention that Madara confirmed that Izuna died, and that's how he got his EMS (also confirming that Tobi lied about Izuna willingly giving his eyes to him). As for Kagami? He appeared in all of 3 pages, with no backstory, no motivations.. nothing. I won't say it's impossible that he's Tobi, but it seems highly improbable. 

Last but not least.. I think Tobi and the Uchiha clan, on some level, were conspirators. Danzo suspected the clan of playing a roll in the 9-Tails attack, and while that could just be attributed to his racism towards the Uchiha, it could be well-founded. Perhaps the real reason the clan was slaughtered was so Madara/Tobi could cover his tracks, as well as build his collection of Sharingan. Perhaps the leader of the coup d'tat, Fugaku, was allied with Madara/Tobi and knew of "the plan" before something went wrong? I dunno, but I get the feeling that he plays a part in this too, and that he knows something. It's just a hunch, but I think the scroll that Sasuke found, the one that he claimed he needs Orochimaru's help to use, involves an Edo Tensai that can revive the Uchiha clan, or more specifically, Sasuke's dad, or rather.. "the man who knows everything." Including who's behind the mask, his connection to Madara, and the clan's roll in it all. 

..okay, I may have gotten a bit off track, but this is just my guess as to how things will play out. All I can say is that I'm wicked hyped for the next few issues, and I really think they'll blow some minds. Hope you guys didn't mind my little ramble xD


----------



## DUNGEON (Aug 16, 2012)

He can be 
1. sasuke from future
2. elder son
3. danzo


----------



## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

ShadeX23 said:
			
		

> Well, I got some theories myself, but first off, I just wanna say that I'm new and I'm glad to be here! I just hope I don't get tooled on too much if I have a few inaccuracies with my theory, but I'm definitely open to corrections and all that stuff.
> 
> The latest issue was very telling, and we learned 2 big things about Tobi: he has Obito's right eye, and he has a major beef with Kakashi for some unclear reason. Now, obvious spoilers ahead, with that said and all prior knowledge of Tobi out in the open, here's some guesses as to who he could be..
> 
> ...


o__O

Holy crap, man. That was long and well thought out. But in the end I really didn't get your final conclusion on Tobi's identity. Could you simplify it, lol?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 16, 2012)

A: Sorry I don't read big blocks of text

B: People are saying its not Obito because of 'bad writing'. Now is it good writing? No, not necessarily, Do I enjoy it? No not really, I thought Izuna was going to be the best candidate a year or so ago. But is it the most likely? YES, that is what people need to get through their heads, it doesn't matter whether you like it or not, it seems to be the most likely thing, and simple thing, rather than some guy who spied for the 2 tomoe sharingan from obito to steal the moment he died and turn and train it into ms on his own...........occam's razor people, simplest solution is often right. Who else can be a better identity than Obito at this point. Just about everything would be considered 'bad writing' by your logic. Time line issues, as I've said, and IF Im correct about it being Obito, my possible explanations ALL make a shit ton of sense.
Also people who complain 'its too obvious', not really. Keep in mind this stuff is released hugely in volumes which is the purpose of how the authors write in when imagining time. Not really week by week, that's mostly to give us our little fill. The MAJOR hints have been just recently these past few months. Which is what you do, you release more and more hints as time goes on. Many believed him to be MADARA until like some months ago. But yes, Obito would work, and it wasn't so obvious until recently.


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## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

DUNGEON said:
			
		

> He can be
> 1. sasuke from future
> 2. elder son
> 3. danzo


..............

Dude, y-you're okay, right?


----------



## ShadeX23 (Aug 16, 2012)

> o__O
> 
> Holy crap, man. That was long and well thought out. But in the end I really didn't get your final conclusion on tobi's identity. Could you simplify it, lol?



Thanks a lot! And I'm sorry it was so long, but I tried to make it readable by spacing the paragraphs and stuff. There's a lot of thoughts, so I wanna convey it well without sounding like I'm pulling theories out of my butt haha

In short, I bet it's either Obito, but not simply Obito; his will and body was twisted by Zetsu, Madara, or both, as his disdain for the world, and Kakashi, was caused by Rin's mysterious death, which also explains how Kakashi awakened his mangekyo and how Tobi has similar ocular powers. His broken body became rebuilt by Zetsu, whose black half has the power to record whatever information he takes in, and whose white half can duplicate someone physically, down to their chakra, thus explaining how Tobi, somehow, IS Madara. Also, long-haired Tobi is Madara while shorted-haired is the Tobi we all know, or.. don't know, I should say, but just read my massive post which I put a lot of time in if you wanna know more about that xD

OR I think it's someone who was close to Obito, who was torn over his death. It may be Shisui, who somehow has the mangekyo, but even though he has genjutsu which can control people's minds (which Tobi also has been shown to use), he seemed to love his village and clan, and had no malice towards anyone. Plus he doesn't really look like what little we've seen of Tobi. 

Hope that makes it easier on understanding who I think Tobi is!


----------



## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

ShadeX23 said:


> Thanks a lot! And I'm sorry it was so long, but I tried to make it readable. There's a lot of thoughts, so I wanna convey it well without sounding like I'm pulling theories out of my butt haha
> 
> In short, I bet it's either Obito, but not simply Obito; his will and body was twisted by Zetsu, Madara, or both, as his disdain for the world, and Kakashi, was caused by Rin's mysterious death, which also explains how Kakashi awakened his mangekyo and how Tobi has similar ocular powers. His broken body became rebuilt by Zetsu, whose black half has the power to record whatever information he takes in, and whose white half can duplicate someone physically, down to their chakra, thus explaining how Tobi, somehow, IS Madara. Also, long-haired Tobi is Madara while shorted-haired is the Tobi we all know, or.. don't know, I should say, but just read my massive post which I put a lot of time in if you wanna know more about that xD
> 
> ...


oh, I read your original post, it was just so freaking long that I got confused, lol. So, yeah. I get what you're saying, and although I don't necessarily agree with all of it, it's always nice to see someone put some effort into typing a biju sized post.


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## kyubix2 (Aug 16, 2012)

all who thinks tobi is obito will fail, is a fail from the start, now is a fail guided by  kishi.

KAKASHI ASKED HIM "WHERE DO YOU GET IT", is clear for kakashi, that is the obito's eye. But that man cant be obito. Never his soul, either his body, tobi exist before obitos death, and tobi fought minato when kakashi was a kid. 

we know tobi have zetsu arms and obito's eye, also a rinnegan. that's all.


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## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

kyubix2 said:
			
		

> all who thinks tobi is obito will fail, is a fail from the start, now is a fail guided by kishi.
> 
> KAKASHI ASKED HIM "WHERE DO YOU GET IT", is clear for kakashi, that is the obito's eye. But that man cant be obito. Never his soul, either his body, tobi exist before obitos death, and tobi fought minato when kakashi was a kid.
> 
> we know tobi have zetsu arms and obito's eye, also a rinnegan. that's all.


Um, can you give reasons for why it can't be Obito, because, frankly, I don't see how your post disproves anything. Also, the very earliest we've seen Tobi comes chronologically after Obito's death. And I strongly believe that there is a specific reason for that.


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## ShadeX23 (Aug 16, 2012)

kyubix2 said:


> all who thinks tobi is obito will fail, is a fail from the start, now is a fail guided by  kishi.
> 
> KAKASHI ASKED HIM "WHERE DO YOU GET IT", is clear for kakashi, that is the obito's eye. But that man cant be obito. Never his soul, either his body, tobi exist before obitos death, and tobi fought minato when kakashi was a kid.
> 
> we know tobi have zetsu arms and obito's eye, also a rinnegan. that's all.



Not exactly... I'd read this page a bit more carefully: 

First, Kakashi wants to know where he got the eye. Then, Tobi says "The Fight at Kannabi Bridge.. where you came to be known as the hero of the sharingan!" And Kakashi visibly is shaken, and then, finally, says, "You..." Almost as if he knows EXACTLY who is behind the mask, and is shocked by it. Then, after Kakashi seems to put 2-and-2 together, on the next page, Tobi says, "I told you not to open your mouth so easily!", which harkens back to what the 4th Hokage told Obito not to do in regards to speaking to Kakashi.

Now, myself I have reservations about Obito as well, which is why I say it may be him OR someone close to him, but this chapter seemed to do nothing but enforce the theory that it could very well be him behind the mask, and it's a strong possibility that it's building towards that. It doesn't make sense at the moment, but there's a whole lotta stuff about Tobi that makes no sense whatsoever. There's gotta be a LOT of flashbacks explaining this monster that Kishi's created lol


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## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

ShadeX23 said:
			
		

> Not exactly... I'd read this page a bit more carefully:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I personally wouldn't be surprised if there are 10 chapters' worth of flashbacks!


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## Menacing Eyes (Aug 16, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> .occam's razor people, simplest solution is often right. Who else



The Tobito theory is no less complicated than any other theory out there. It involves several events that need to happen in a specific order, most of which are based on assumption, which is the basis for most, if not all of the other theories.

Just because it is the simplest solution to you, does not mean that it is the simplest solution for others. 

To me, Kishi is going to need to go out of his way and explain A LOT if he wants to make Tobito make sense. It involves all sorts of crazy theories, like Obito having a growth spurt or replacing his limbs with zetsu goo to get taller, or using genjutsu to trick Kisame, or the real Madara somehow surviving for ages and awakening his own rinnegan while somehow staging Nagato's parents death to ensure that he awakens his own so that he can bring Madara back to life after having Obito run around and do his dirty work while he's dead. Stuff like that seems pretty complicated to me.


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## Easley (Aug 16, 2012)

Tobito is definitely more convoluted than Izuna. It simply requires Izuna to be alive and Madara lying about his 'death'. The rest flows naturally from that. Obito needs a ton of things to happen 'just right' for him to be the way he is now. It also creates a possible plothole for Madara, since he would have to be alive way longer than we thought in order to meet Obito.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 16, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> The Tobito theory is no less complicated than any other theory out there. It involves several events that need to happen in a specific order, most of which are based on assumption, which is the basis for most, if not all of the other theories.
> 
> Just because it is the simplest solution to you, does not mean that it is the simplest solution for others.
> 
> To me, Kishi is going to need to go out of his way and explain A LOT if he wants to make Tobito make sense. It involves all sorts of crazy theories, like Obito having a growth spurt or replacing his limbs with zetsu goo to get taller, or using genjutsu to trick Kisame, or the real Madara somehow surviving for ages and awakening his own rinnegan while somehow staging Nagato's parents death to ensure that he awakens his own so that he can bring Madara back to life after having Obito run around and do his dirty work while he's dead. Stuff like that seems pretty complicated to me.



He's going to have to explain the same things for any and all characters.

Kagami: Empty slate, has to explain EVERYTHING from personality, to connections, to abilities, to why he was spying on Kakashi and Obito, to why he went rogue and how no one notice him go rogue. How his body is messed up.

Izuna: How he survived, Why he only treasures one eye, Why he is still alive of age compared to Madara, How his body is so mangled and messed up, Why Madara said that all was left was his eyes and power despite knowingTobi, why He was spying on Kakashi and Obito

Obito: We know how he ends up with eye its his fucking eye, it EXPLAINS why he has so many more subtle and outright obvious scenes with Tobi.
Only need to know where Madara plays in all this to see how timeline plays out. THAT IS ALL really. Know how Madara fits in with Obito, and BAM, explanations are essentially done.

Being Obito explains ALOT more than it leaves mystery compared to Izuna and Kagami or any other Uchiha which would require a novel of explanations to fill. We have the dots, just need to connect them, problem is we are missing the 2 special dots in between that make out the whole shape.

edit: madara beign longer than we though. I personally believe he died somewhere between obito's death and kyuubi attack. but really we have no idea.


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## Mugivara (Aug 16, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> None of the likely Tobi candidates were in Root at any point.
> 
> Obito never was, Izuna never was.
> 
> Kagami you could make an argument for I guess, but it would just be something else that would have to be invented along with the rest of his character. Not good writing.



I don't support any of them. 



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi and Danzo have completely different philosophies.



Lets check then:

PURPOSE:

DANZO:

TOBI:

EXACT SAME... 

METHOD:

DANZO:
*Spoiler*: __ 







TOBI:

EXACT SAME... BODY CONTROL

METHOD2:

DANZO-ROOT: 
*Spoiler*: __ 







> Danzō has also trained its members to lose their emotions by growing up as brothers from a young age, only to later be made to kill each other. This is done to kill any sense of sentiment or emotional attachment. This method was extremely similar, if not identical, to the Kirigakure Academy's former graduation test. Each member has a codename; even the members themselves apparently do not know their original names. Unlike normal ANBU, they carry a tip-less tantō instead of a katana. Also unlike normal ANBU, members of Root take orders only from Danzō instead of the Kage, unless ordered to otherwise. Another speciality of the organisation was slow, long-term brainwashing. In the case of one of their members, Nonō Yakushi, she was brainwashed through a series of photographs starting with photographs of Kabuto — one of her former wards at orphanage showing him growing up. Eventually, they switched the person in the photographs entirely and then gave her the order to kill the actual Kabuto. This resulted in Nonō not recognising the young man in their final confrontation.





TOBI-BLOODY MIST: 
*Spoiler*: __ 





> During the reign of Yagura, the Fourth Mizukage, Kirigakure began using a new graduation ritual for their academy. Students wishing to move on into the ranks of the ninja would be pitted against each other in one-on-one duels to the death, thus earning the village the nickname "Village of the Bloody Mist" (血霧の里, Chigiri no sato). Students who did exceptionally well during the graduation became prime candidates for the Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist, a group of ninja skilled with bladed weapons.
> The Fourth Mizukage being controlled by Tobi.
> The years of the "Bloody Mist" were a time of great turmoil for the village; ninja began craving power and took part in questionable activities. Kisame Hoshigaki, a member of the Seven Swordsmen and one of the strongest ninja to have been produced by the village, defected after he tried to overthrow the government and assassinated several officials. The graduation exam itself was discontinued after Zabuza Momochi, not yet in the academy, killed an entire graduating class. He too would join the Seven Swordsmen and then defect after his failed attempt to assassinate the Mizukage. Despite being the reason for the village's infamy, many Kirigakure ninja believe Yagura was being controlled by someone. Kisame was one of the few Kiri ninja to know this was true; he swore allegiance to the Mizukage's manipulator: Tobi.
> Bloody Tobi






EXACT SAME...

PHILOSOPHY:

DANZO-ROOT:

"I'm no one"



TOBI:

"I'm no one"



ROOT's KABUTO:

"I'm no one"

*Spoiler*: __ 








When Shishui wasn't even born, Look at Danzo's right eye socket:



You may deny my theory but you cannot deny the similarity of Tobi and Danzo's philosophies


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 16, 2012)

They are only similar in that they believe in doing whatever it takes to achieve their goals.


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## son_michael (Aug 16, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> I don't support any of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




everyone's going to deny your theory because it makes no sense. Danzou made sure to crush shisui's eye which is what Tobi wanted and tobi cursed Danzou in his head when he saw that Danzou crushed the eye.


Danzou is dead, he has absolutely nothing to do with tobi.


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## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> I don't support any of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay, I'll admit there are similarities. But this does not mean at all that Tobi is Danzo. Tobi watched Danzo die. how could they be in two places at once if they were the same person? Why would Danzo, if he's somehow able to be two places at once, not have his other self help him during his fight with Sasuke? And why did Tobi have to figure out for himself what Danzo's technique was? Why did Tobi MOCK Danzo in his head? Why did he crush the eye he wanted. It makes no sense for him to have gone through all of that for the eye if he already had it. Why did he curse Danzo's dead body in private? Why did he refer to Danzo as a different person in his head? Danzo already had his emotional flashbacks, he died to help protect the shinobi world. It doesn't make any sense for him to Tobi. Plus, his body was found.

So, no. Tobi being Danzo is IMPOSSIBLE!


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## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

Tobi isn't Obito. Making a thread about it soon, as it deserves its own one.


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## insane111 (Aug 16, 2012)

Couldn't help but laugh at the irony



Mistshadow said:


> A: Sorry I don't read big blocks of text
> 
> B: People are saying its not Obito because of 'bad writing'. Now is it good writing? No, not necessarily, Do I enjoy it? No not really, I thought Izuna was going to be the best candidate a year or so ago. But is it the most likely? YES, that is what people need to get through their heads, it doesn't matter whether you like it or not, it seems to be the most likely thing, and simple thing, rather than some guy who spied for the 2 tomoe sharingan from obito to steal the moment he died and turn and train it into ms on his own...........occam's razor people, simplest solution is often right. Who else can be a better identity than Obito at this point. Just about everything would be considered 'bad writing' by your logic. Time line issues, as I've said, and IF Im correct about it being Obito, my possible explanations ALL make a shit ton of sense. Also people who complain 'its too obvious', not really. Keep in mind this stuff is released hugely in volumes which is the purpose of how the authors write in when imagining time. Not really week by week, that's mostly to give us our little fill. The MAJOR hints have been just recently these past few months. Which is what you do, you release more and more hints as time goes on. Many believed him to be MADARA until like some months ago. But yes, Obito would work, and it wasn't so obvious until recently.


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## Easley (Aug 16, 2012)

Tobi=Danzo is extremely unlikely - less than 1% chance I reckon - but, it is something that you'd never see coming. I'm always in favor of mind-bending twists, if they make sense, but this would be pushing it. Even if Tobi is completely insane and speaks in third person, watching Sasuke's fight against "himself" is strange.


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## HakuGaara (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Kishi said it.



Where? State your sources.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> "Everyone close to me has already died."



Oh, so Gai, Kurenai etc. etc. don't know anything about Kakashi? He's just a complete mystery to everyone except Obito. 



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Also, why would anyone but Obito know the personal things about Kakashi that Tobi is saying? Just because someone else may know him doesn't mean they'd know this about him.



Because logically, Kakashi has personal relationships with more than just Obito.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> If Tobi's not Obito, then why would he even CARE about what was said?! He has to be Obito in order for what Tobi's saying to make sense.



He cares because he has a personal History with Kakashi and no it can't be Obito because it disrupts continuity.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I, unlike you, pay attention to Kishimoto's writing style, his influences, and the themes he conveys. They all point to Obito. Even Japanese mythology hints at it.



Kishi's writing style isn't to create enormous plot-holes. What *is* his writing style, is to convey characters as appearing as someone else. Since it appears that Tobi is 'physically' Obito, that most likely means that he isn't really Obito, as per usual Kishimoto writing.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi's first chronological appearance comes after Obito's death.
> 
> So how exactly is there any proof that he was around before Obito?



Link removed

Madara: This is something 'HE' would do (referring to the perpetrator of the war).
Madara: Who is using this Edo Tensai?
Kabuto: I'm Kabuto. I'm 'his' supporter ('his' being Tobi).

This confirms that Madara knows Tobi. Obviously he didn't go by 'Tobi' back in the day and Madara knows his real name, which is why the author didn't reveal it and had Madara say 'he'.

And then there's numerous other things that only further prove this fact. 

- Tobi saying how long he has been waiting when it was only a year or so since Obito died.

- Saying he took Hashirama's DNA when Madara fought him.

- Having an almost encyclopedic knowledge about anything and everything.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Btw, no one besides Obito fits Kishimoto's writing style and literary devices.



I'm sure you're more than happy to tell yourself that.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi and Obito have the exact same eyeshape, people. That's some very strong evidence towards them being the same person. People should think about this.



Yes, because genjutsu, transformation techniques, mind-body switching, transmigration and pretty much anything that makes someone look like someone else is not part of Kishi's 'writing style' at all , so because the ..lol.. 'eye shape' is the same, it *MUST* be Obito!!! lololol.


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## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

*Tobi is not Obito*

Tobi is not Obito. I urge you to read this whole thread before assuming things. In order to explain this, I'm going to have to reference Kakashi Gaiden several times.


*Spoiler*: _The original Kakashi_ 










Kakashi as we know him currently was not like this back when Obito was alive. In fact, he is more similar to the hollow shell of a man named Tobi. "Nothing matters but the mission." Tobi wants to make certain sacrifices to stop the wasting of lives even if it costs him his allies. Kakashi is no different. While Tobi and Gaiden Kakashi are surprisingly similar, Obito is the foil to Tobi and Kakashi.


*Spoiler*: _Kakashi's belief system_ 










It is well known that Kakashi changes... but what people don't realize is that he *becomes* Obito. The Obito in Kakashi Gaiden is the Kakashi that is alive. But what people don't see is that Tobi is remarkably similar to the Kakashi of the past. 

Kishi has been known to use visual foreshadowing in his manga quite often, as most mangaka do. One piece of visual foreshadowing has long been neglected by even the Tobito fans.


*Spoiler*: _Visual foreshadowing_ 





*Spoiler*: _1_ 












There were at least 3 images of Obito's and Kakashi's faces split like that. One thing remained constant - Obito was always on the right side while Kakashi was always on the left side. This was to show that Kakashi was the foil to Obito. But what panel looks awfully similar to the 3 in Kakashi gaiden...


*Spoiler*: _Kakashi becomes Obito_ 










*Spoiler*: _Kakashi on the right side_ 








Kakashi crying symbolizes his abandonment of his belief system. He strictly followed the code of the Shinobi as stated earlier on in Gaiden. In this scene, Kakashi cries, abandoning his belief for Obito's.

Kakashi (now represented by Obito) faces his foil (Tobi). Tobi is meant to represent the belief system Kakashi had in the past, while Kakashi being on the right side shows that he adopted Obito's belief system. 

Tobi wasn't lying when he said he is a shell of his former self. His belief system was crushed to the core and replaced by a belief system similar to the one Kakashi had. Tobi isn't Obito. He's simply a shell of his former self. *Kakashi* is Obito. If Tobi is anyone, it's a Gaiden Kakashi that is sick of war.


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## DUNGEON (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Okay, I'll admit there are similarities. But this does not mean at all that Tobi is Danzo. Tobi watched Danzo die. how could they be in two places at once if they were the same person? Why would Danzo, if he's somehow able to be two places at once, not have his other self help him during his fight with Sasuke? And why did Tobi have to figure out for himself what Danzo's technique was? Why did Tobi MOCK Danzo in his head? Why did he crush the eye he wanted. It makes no sense for him to have gone through all of that for the eye if he already had it. Why did he curse Danzo's dead body in private? Why did he refer to Danzo as a different person in his head? Danzo already had his emotional flashbacks, he died to help protect the shinobi world. It doesn't make any sense for him to Tobi. Plus, his body was found.
> 
> So, no. Tobi being Danzo is IMPOSSIBLE!



It was all a drama to calm down sasuke who eagerly wanted to kill Danzo. 
Him and karin were being manipulated by Danzo's ultimate genjustu.


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## Rios (Aug 16, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Tobi is not Obito. I urge you to read this whole thread before assuming things. In order to explain this, I'm going to have to reference Kakashi Gaiden several times.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _The original Kakashi_
> ...


So they switched places.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Awesome said:


> Tobi is not Obito. I urge you to read this whole  thread before assuming things. In order to explain this, I'm going to  have to reference Kakashi Gaiden several times.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _The original Kakashi_
> ...





That was more of an analysis on Tobi's character than it was about his identity. If it was about his identity, I would have posted it here, quite obviously.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 16, 2012)

You prefaced your opening post with _"Tobi is not Obito"_, bro. o_o


----------



## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

Awesome said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That was just a hook 

Advertising man. The title of my college essay said I was a tomato. Am I actually a tomato? It's not like I didn't spend a while making this thread. It's not like this going to be forgotten in the next page of this thread.


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## Mugivara (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Okay, I'll admit there are similarities. But this does not mean at all that Tobi is Danzo.
> 
> - Tobi watched Danzo die. how could they be in two places at once if they were the same person?
> 
> ...



*The only obstacle against Danzo being Tobi is above mentioned parts. If you haven't seen an artificial dead, I'm sure most of the forums on the world might have been supporting this theory.

At the end, Kishi needs to surprise you*


----------



## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> Where? State your sources.


It was in a manuscript Kishi wrote.





> Oh, so Gai, Kurenai etc. etc. don't know anything about Kakashi? He's just a complete mystery to everyone except Obito.


That's not what I meant by that.





> Because logically, Kakashi has personal relationships with more than just Obito.


Yes, but you think he's gonna go blabbering about how he's lived a life of regret and broke his promise to protect Rin? Only Obito has the right to say all the things that Tobi's been saying to Kakashi.





> He cares because he has a personal History with Kakashi and no it can't be Obito because it disrupts continuity.


You still haven't stated how Obito disrupts continuity and who the fuck else can it be besides Obito? Tobi has to be someone we know.





> Kishi's writing style isn't to create enormous plot-holes. What *is* his writing style, is to convey characters as appearing as someone else. Since it appears that Tobi is 'physically' Obito, that most likely means that he isn't really Obito, as per usual Kishimoto writing.


Your logic fails. The guy wears a mask. It's not as if Kishi just showed us Tobi's face and went "Oh look, he's Obito!" And the Obito theory doesn't have enormous plot holes. You still have yet to tell me what such "plotholes" are.





> Link removed
> 
> Madara: This is something 'HE' would do (referring to the perpetrator of the war).
> Madara: Who is using this Edo Tensai?
> ...


How does this go against him being Obito?



> And then there's numerous other things that only further prove this fact.
> 
> - Tobi saying how long he has been waiting when it was only a year or so since Obito died.


Actually, it was more like at least 2 years. Now, I don't see why he wouldn't be entitled to say that when he waited 2 years for a quick, ten second event.



> - Saying he took Hashirama's DNA when Madara fought him.






> - Having an almost encyclopedic knowledge about anything and everything.


He studied?





> I'm sure you're more than happy to tell yourself that.


No. I'm telling _other_ people that because I've studied the way Kishimoto writes.





> Yes, because genjutsu, transformation techniques, mind-body switching, transmigration and pretty much anything that makes someone look like someone else is not part of Kishi's 'writing style' at all


Why's he wearing a mask, then? 



> so because the ..lol.. 'eye shape' is the same, it *MUST* be Obito!!! lololol.


Eyeshape is a way that Kishimoto portrays his characters. If you can't comprehend the most basic character details then you need to use your brain, assuming you even have one going by how immature you're being.


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## Laura (Aug 16, 2012)

How is the poll already closed?!

Or was it carried on from the previous thread?


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## Escargon (Aug 16, 2012)

kyubix2 said:


> all who thinks tobi is obito will fail, is a fail from the start, now is a fail guided by  kishi.
> 
> KAKASHI ASKED HIM "WHERE DO YOU GET IT", is clear for kakashi, that is the obito's eye. But that man cant be obito. Never his soul, either his body, tobi exist before obitos death, and tobi fought minato when kakashi was a kid.
> 
> we know tobi have zetsu arms and obito's eye, also a rinnegan. that's all.



Time travel inc. 

The Zetsu is like Gaaras sand. 

Zetsugoo protected Tobis arm when Suigetsu slashed it.

Zetsugoo protected Tobi from the explosion as you can see in the coloured page.

The goo made Tobis arm soft enough to fall down VS the fourth.

Tobi didnt bother waiting for to fully make his arm like rubbergum when he fought Danzos dogs. He broke his arm instead. 

I would say that he implanted some goo to make it like a defense system but like every other theory it is ruined by that Tobi can create a new arm out of it.

And i wished that Tobi would be Kaiza:>


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## Arya Stark (Aug 16, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Hoho Papa epicness



This is quite awesome man.
Especially



Tobi literally uses this speech in the chapter. This LAP is the best of Tobi's characterization so far.


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## jacamo (Aug 16, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Kakashi crying symbolizes his abandonment of his belief system. He strictly followed the code of the Shinobi as stated earlier on in Gaiden. In this scene, Kakashi cries, abandoning his belief for Obito's.
> 
> Kakashi (now represented by Obito) faces his foil (Tobi). Tobi is meant to represent the belief system Kakashi had in the past, while Kakashi being on the right side shows that he adopted Obito's belief system.
> 
> Tobi wasn't lying when he said he is a shell of his former self. His belief system was crushed to the core and replaced by a belief system similar to the one Kakashi had. Tobi isn't Obito. He's simply a shell of his former self. *Kakashi* is Obito. If Tobi is anyone, it's a Gaiden Kakashi that is sick of war.



excellent points... especially this part


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## Mistshadow (Aug 16, 2012)

People who think tobi is someon from the future make me die a little inside. I mean seriously you are THAT against seeing the huge possibility of obito being tobi that you want to stretch that far. Same people who were simply saying that the eye CANT be Obitos and its common for any sharingan to be able to unlock that S/T jutsu. Seriously time and time again new things are going to point you to wrong.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 16, 2012)

I loved how when this week's chapter was released, people suddenly started saying stupid things like: "TOBI IS OBITO! THIS CHAPTER PROVES IT!! HE HAS OBITO'S EYE!!" They have to keep in mind that the eye doesn't make the man. Just because Tobi has Obito's eye, that doesn't automatically make him Obito.


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## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I loved how when this week's chapter was released, people suddenly started saying stupid things like: "TOBI IS OBITO! THIS CHAPTER PROVES IT!! HE HAS OBITO'S EYE!!" They have to keep in mind that the eye doesn't make the man. Just because Tobi has Obito's eye, that doesn't automatically make him Obito.



If it was just the eye people wouldn't think it's Obito. People will think it's someone with Obito's eye. There's a lot more to it than that. Scroll up and read my post.


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## Uchiha Q (Aug 16, 2012)

*Tobi is Naruto from another dimension*

I think that would be a better identity for tobi,

tobi is naruto, except naruto from either the FUTURE or another dimension

Naruto will go through a space time continuum faze sooner or later, everyone does, it's a trend.

so expect this.


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## Arya Stark (Aug 16, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think that would be a better identity for tobi,
> 
> tobi is naruto, except naruto from either the FUTURE or another dimension
> 
> ...


I'd so rage quit if this happens.

Seriously


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## Rios (Aug 16, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think that would be a better identity for tobi,
> 
> tobi is naruto, except naruto from either the FUTURE or another dimension
> 
> ...


This is getting a tad bit ridiculous. At least if you are going to proclaim something crazy, try to find "evidence" instead of saying "I'll just jump on the bandwagon with future incarnations of characters predictions, use someone who I havent seen being used and make an utterly pointless thread explaining how utterly pointless my idea is" .


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## General Mael Radec (Aug 16, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think that would be a better identity for tobi,
> 
> tobi is naruto, except naruto from either the FUTURE or another dimension
> 
> ...


I see, its very much possible. Naruto was charged with the burden of finding peace and after so many years as hokage and helping the world he noticed no such thing existed. hatred and killing never stoped, sadness was part of a daily life for some people. Seeing this he used a forbidden jutsu and went back in time, took obitos sharigan and decided to turn everything into an illusion to obtain peace in a way that no violance would happen, it would be a manipulated world but it will be a peaceful world.


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## KCMNaruto (Aug 16, 2012)

Hello, I am new on this forum

*This my theory: Tobi is ressurected Izuna with no eyes by Madara via Rinne Tensei.*


*Why Tobi should be Izuna?*

*Facts:*

- Tobi has huge knowledge about Ninja World, all jutsu and much more
- Tobi can use Uchiha jutsu exclusive
-Strong chakra and power is required to control Nine tails. Only Madara could do that unless his younger brother could do it too. When Madara and Izuna unlocked MS they were equal.
- Tobi switches eyes all the time.

*Explanation:*
- Madara talking with Kage that Izuna died, is simple to explain. Izuna really died, and Madara took  attempt to ressurect Izuna, but he didn't know if it worked. He didn't want to talk about soemthing which wasn't confirmed. Izuna ressurection wasn't confirmed but Izuna death was confirmed according to Madara.

*Assumptions:*

- Izuna knew about everything happened from Zetsu. Izuna knew about Mito Uzumaki so he studied about Uzumaki abilities and more.
- Madara had spy called Kagami Uchiha, who was Obito father. Izuna knew almost everything about Obito from his father or Obito himself as child.
- Zetsu spied Obito Uchiha so he knew when Obito unlocked sharingan. When Obito went with Kakashi to rescue Rin, Zetsu spied him
- Madara injected Senjuu Hashirama DNA in Izuna dead body, or maybe it was Tobirama Senjuu DNA after his death it would explain Tobi can't use Mokuton.
-  Madara, who had small time for Senjuu DNA to merge with his Uchiha DNA so he had only Hashirama face on his chest, because he died too early. In Opposite to Madara ressurected Izuna lived much longer so His Senjuu DNA perfectly merged with his Uchiha DNA allowing him to use perfect Izanagi. While Madara probably couldn't use Izanagi, at least not perfect.
- Madara was hidden for long time while process of injecting Senjuu DNA in his body lasted. It explains why Izuna was hidden and didn't take action for long time while process accepting Senjuu DNA in his body was lasting.
- Danzo confirmed that Senjuu cells are hard to control, so it could take much of time to do it. Izuna and Madara probably have to fight to didn;t let Senjuu DNA take control over them body
-When Obito was crushed and after Kakashi took Obito sharingan and left with Rin. Zetsu took obito other sharingan and gave it Izuna
- Izuna collected many sharingans becuase his eyes with Madara changed in Rinnengan was in Nagato. Izuna tried and tested all sharingans until he got Obito sharingan. He was master of sharingan and once developed sharingan to MS. He fast transformed Obito sharingan to MS and probably even perfected it.
-Madara didn't give Rinnengan to Izuna, because he wanted to give him first Senjuu DNA, and process of merging Senjuu DNA with Uchiha DNA took much time, so he gave it to Nagato Uzumaki. maybe Uchiha and Uzumaki child. Zetsu got order to spy Nagato Uzumaki and inform about this fact to ressurected Izuna.
-Izuna fought with Fourth Hokage as equal and could control Kyuubi at the same time. Minato Namikaze even thought him as Madara so Izuna is best candidate as Madara little brother. When Fourth Hokahe hit Izuna in arm, there was Senjuu DNA same as Zetsu goo, which didn't merge perfectly with Uchiha DNA yet.
- Izuna had reason to take revenge for Madara death. He had grudge against Uchiha clan, as they abandoned Madara. Izuna had grudge against Konoha  for Madara death. Izuna watched all crimes and evil happening in this world so he decided to do something with that. Zetsu told him about Moon eye plan, which Madara planned to do. Izuna wanted Moon eye plan to work so he continued Madara plan.
-Izuna as Tobi inspired Yahiko to create Akatsuki organization, so He did  it. After Yahiko death, Izuna as Tobi appeared before Nagato who began to recruit Akatsuki members.
- Izuna was hidden again until Senjuu DNA merged completly with Uchiha DNA. When process was completed Akatsuki had one place free after Sasori Death, so Zetsu introduced Tobi<Izuna> in organization.
- Izuna took great interest in Sasuke Uchiha, as he was Uchiha memeber as well as younger brother ,who was in shadow of Itachi, his older brother. Izuna felt bad for Sasuke to be in shadow of older brother. Sasuke reminded Izuna himself when he was younger.
-Izuna even fooled Itachi because he has chakra similliar to him. He has all knowledge as Madara from Zetsu.
- Izuna as Tobi traveled with Deidara to hunt three tailed beast, sanbi.  While Tobi was catched by three tailed beast, He was in ghost mode so he survived Deidara bomb.
-Tobi as Izuna survived all Deidara attacks, and he could survive even more. He behave silly to fool everyone to hide his really personality. He was great actor no doubt.
- After Diedara death He finally revealed himself as true leader before readers but took name of Uchiha Madara. However Nagato was still leader for Akatsuki memebers. Only Nagato, Konan, Itachi and Kisame<probably> knew about him being real leader.
- After Nagato death, He was busy prepearing for War while Meeting of 5 Kages was happening. After declaring fourth great war Tobi as Izuna was busy created Zetsu army from bijuu chakra.
- He wanted Sasuke to get stronger so send him on 5 kage meeting. He understands his feelings.
- He wanted Danzo to be dead becuase Danzo killed Kagami Uchiha, his teammate who was spy for Izuna, I mean Tobi.
-Thanks to Hashirama living clone Tobi as Izuna, who is perfectly compatible with Senjuu DNA so can regenerate his body or make his body look younger somehow.
-He retrived Rinnengan both eyes, which was  orginally his<Izuna> eyes ,from Nagato corpse. In Tobi vs Konan fight he used Izanagi which let him avoid death. It supports my theory that he mastered Izanagi.
-He saw Hashirama Senjuu in Naruto because as Izuna he met Hashirama for sure in battle.
- In short time He was able to use Rinnegan, probably Rinnengan paths as well because it was his eyes orginally.
- Izuna knew Madara personally so he could fool everyone behaving as him.
- Izuna planned to get Rinnengan, master using these eyes and then ressurect his brother but Kabuto appeared before and broke his plan by ressurecting Uchiha Madara, his older brother with Edo Tensei.
-Izuna wasn't afraid that Madara wanted to kill him or something. First reason he didn't want to fight him, second reason was he was afraid Kabuto will control Madara and force him to fight Tobi as Izuna.
- While telling Sasuke about everything he gripped his clothes when he mentioned about Izuna<himself> giving willingly brother eyes and die after.
He wasn't mad for Madara but he was sentimantal about his death and past.
- When He met Naruto and Killer bee, he told that he is nobody and don't want to anybody. He was forgotten by Ninja World, so he was nobody. He only care about Moon eye plan to be realised, because his brother Madara sacrificed many things to do it, besides Izuna himself watched corrupted Ninja World, so he decided it was only way to create peace.
-Izuna as Tobi know everything about Obito, which I explained in Kagami <obito father> as spy. He know about Kakashi regrets and personal actions thanks to Zetsu who spied Kakashi all time, maybe for Izuna to get other Obito eye as well.
- Izuna was ressurected with no eyes via Rinne Tensei, so that why he collected these sharingans. 
- I think Tobi was using Obito Sharingan almost all time. Tobi as Izuna has minimal drain using sharingan. Kakashi can use kamui only when he has Mangenkyou sharingan activated, so Tobi probably use Space time Ninjutsu only when he has Mangenkyou sharingan. Izuna mastered MS so he can use efficently as Obito would never use probably. He has Senjuu DNA in himself and even perfectly merged so he can use Space time Ninjutsu as much as he can, because Senjuu cells are healling Mangenkyou sharingan bad side effects.
- Tobi as Izuna's chakra amount is easy to epxlain. He has probably great amount of chakra but below Naruto own , Kisame and Nagato, but Senjuu cells accelerate procces of chakra restoring, so He looks like has infinite chakra. Besides mastery of sharingan and great mastery over Senjuu and Uchiha techniques, DNA let him for minimal chakra using.
- When Kisame met Tobi after he discovered Tobi was really Fourth Mizukage, who controlled Yagura. Kisame told him to come out from shadow and showed his face to Kisame. Izuna is similliar in look to Madara, so Kisame could be fooled or it was real Madara, who was living yet. 

I provided that I can fill any gap, plot hole or whatever with theory Izuna is Tobi.

*Summary: I know that this is great wall of text and in random order, but I hope someone read it. I hate Obito being Tobi idea, there is so much plot holes, inaccuracies that it isn't even funny.  Please Kishi make him Izuna, I hope I covered all plot holes, facts with Tobi being Izuna.




If you have any questions or doubts, just please wirite about them and I try to explain them.

Tob being Izuna would be epic. Sorry for my bad english or any grammar mistakes. I will try later to improve my post, but for now I left it in this form.

Now come at me Tobito fans, because I made Izuna more better candidate than Obito ever was or will be.*


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## Laura (Aug 16, 2012)

God dammit, not another page long theory.  Can't you summarize it?


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## Arya Stark (Aug 16, 2012)

Izuna is a boring ass candidate. Because it's pretty much predictable.
Also 0 emotional impact.

I want Kishi to blow my mind.



Agsrower said:


> God dammit, not another page long theory.  Can't you summarize it?



S/he says Izuna is Tobi. Nothing new.


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## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

Way too many assumptions, very little facts. Invalid theory.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 16, 2012)

Every time someone suggests Tobi is someone from the future I throw up a little.

Do you actually think about what you're proposing?


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## Arya Stark (Aug 16, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Every time someone suggests Tobi is someone from the future I throw up a little.
> 
> Do you actually think about what you're proposing?



The same people saying Tobito doesn't make sense because he can't travel in time makes it even more funnier.


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## KCMNaruto (Aug 16, 2012)

Agsrower said:


> God dammit, not another page long theory.  Can't you summarize it?



Don't worry I will sumarize for your asking.

*Summarry: Tobi is ressurected Izuna with no eyes by Madara Uchiha via Rinne Tensei*

My Theory: Tobi is ressurected Izuna with no eyes by Madara Uchiha via Rinne Tensei. Before Izuna was ressurected, he has Senjuu DNA injected in Izuna dead body. Madara has spy called Kagami Uchiha, who was Obito father, Madara created Zetsu before he injected Senjuu DNA in himself.
While process of Senjuu DNA accepting by Madara body or Izuna body took much of time and make them unable to fight, this is why they were hidden so long and took no action. Madara transfered all his knowledge to Zetsu. Zetsu transfered then all his knowledge and Madara to resurrected Izuna. Izuna met Kagami Uchiha, his spy and knew Obito child, he was inspired but this boy somehow or Obito took atention of Izuna. Kagami was killed by Danzo who discovered that Kagami was spy, this is why Izuna wanted Danzo dead, so Sasuke killed him later when Izuna created him oportunity to do this. Zetsu informed Izuna about Obito awake sharingan and he with guy called Kakashi go to rescue girl called Rin. Izuna with Zetsu spied on them, after Kakashi left with one Obito Sharingan, Zetsu took other Obito sharingan and give it Izuna who has random sharingans brought by Madara from Uchiha clan members was killed. Izuna begin to collect all powerfull eyes, sharingans so he agreed to help Itachi kill uchiha clan. I can write more...if you want.

-Izuna has chakra powerfull as Madara, they were equal. He is only person besides Madara who could control Nine Tails, only he could developed Obito Sharingan in short time and to MS level.
-Izuna looks simillliar to Madara
-Izuna desired to create peace
-Izuna was very skilled shinobi as his brother

There was only few facts and few assumptions. If you want to know more about my theory just read my previous post. I know it is wall of text but it is worth of reading. I explaind everything and gave example how Kishi could incorporated it in his manga "Naruto", I filled many gaps and holes and answered many questions. At least I hope

*Tobi is Izuna guys, at least it is mych better than Tobi is Obito, weak child with no talent!*


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 16, 2012)

So why is Izuna mad at Kakashi?


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## Arya Stark (Aug 16, 2012)

I know this one sucks but I love how in Kakashi Gaiden they point out Obito's prone to lie very casually.


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## KCMNaruto (Aug 16, 2012)

Moon~ said:


> Izuna is a boring ass candidate. Because it's pretty much predictable.
> Also 0 emotional impact.
> 
> I want Kishi to blow my mind.
> ...



I don't agree with you, Izuna is greaty candidate. Besides Kishi could fill his history by flashback and make readers care about him. He is close to Madara, so he is the best candidate simple. 

And nothing new, laughable. NO it is new, because If you read all my post, you would understand many events and facts. I showed HOW could Kishi fill Izuna story and incorporate it in his manga "Naruto". 


Come at me, and wirte your doubts or holes in theory I will explain all, try it


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 16, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> So why is Izuna mad at Kakashi?



**


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## KCMNaruto (Aug 16, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Way too many assumptions, very little facts. Invalid theory.



You are right but I didn't write it right. Many statments in assumptions part are facts. I mixed them for sure.

Izuna is better than Obito, crying weak boy. If Obito is Tobi, it is offense for Tobi character to be this weakling.

For these people who said Tobi is Obito or Obito could be beast, you funny. Zetsu once told that master with rock can defeat novice with shuriken and it exactly shows diference in Izuna and Obito potential. 

Izuna simply developed obito Sharingan to maximum potential, Obito would never do that even if he was alive.

If there is one reason why Tobi can't be Izuna, is Izuna is too much awesome to be Tobi.

If Obito is Tobi, please whoever, for example Naruto kill him fast and erease his existence completly. 

Madara and Orochimaru would be hell better

but if he is Izuna or at least not Obito, then he can be great villian at least.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 16, 2012)

Someone is mad that "weakling Uchiha boy" outlasted nearly every other villain.

Maybe he simply isn't as weak as you thought?


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## Paralakz (Aug 16, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think that would be a better identity for tobi,
> 
> tobi is naruto, except naruto from either the FUTURE or another dimension
> 
> ...


If its anyone from the future/another dimension it's Itachi.

If its anyone from the past involving time distortion/manipulation/travel but from this dimension, it's obito.

Moreover, if it is anyone from another dimension, that is about as pointless as it gets. People have enough to deal with in their own dimensions, they don't typically care for others. It is almost impossible to give someone compelling motivations to do something to a dimension that is not their own as whatever explanation used to justify their vendetta against ours/the one in question would not believable.

That is all.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 16, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think that would be a better identity for tobi,



You thought wrong.


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## KCMNaruto (Aug 16, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> So why is Izuna mad at Kakashi?



I know this is assumption, but I can show you way for Kishi to make it true.

*Please read all:*

In my theory Kagami uchiha was spy of Madara Uchiha, impossible?!, no way Madara could have spy in Konoha, so he informed him about everything. It could explain Madara knowledge as well, but comming back to topic Madara ressurected Izuna, Izuna was informed by Zetsu about Kagami Uchiha, his spy. Izuna met with Kagami, and met for first time that Kagami uchiha has son named Obito Uchiha. Kagami was killed by Danzo, who discovered that Kagami was spy. Izuna was interested in Obito because his personality or maybe something pulled his attention. Izuna ordered Zetsu to spy Obito in war time, maybe because he wanted to make him next spy. When Obito awake shaingan Zetsu informed Izuna about it. Izuna wanted to see potential of this boy Uchiha, remember he does't have own eyes, so he collected all Uchiha Powerfull sharingans. After Kakashi took Obito sharingan and left, zetsu took other Obito sharingan and give it to Zetsu. Izuna heard all promises entrusted to Kakashi by Obito. He ordered Zetsu to spy on Kakashi, he has two reasons. First reason:  he wanted someone to repleace Obito as next spy so he was interested in Kakashi, someone who Uchiha gave own Sharingan. Second reason: he wanted to see if someone from Uchiha clan can entrusted someone, who isn't from Uchiha. In other words he wanted to put  kakashi atempt, chance for World to not using Moon eye plan on world as his brother plan. Zetsu spied on Kakashi all time, so Izuna know all Kakashi regrets and personal promises, about Rin death.

Izuna was mad for Kakashi,for didn't keep promise from Uchiha Obito and failed although Obito give him Sharingan, great power of Uchiha and get nothing in return.


Assumptions in my theory:
*- Izuna has spy in Konoha
-Spy was called Kagami Uchiha
-Kagami Uchiha was Obito father
-Izuna was interested in Obito personality, dreams or whatever*


I hope I explained it well and convinced you to Tobi is Izuna theory

Obito is too certain candidate for Tobi, but Kishi like to trolling or fooling peoples.

Izuna would shock many readers, especially after Madara statment that Izuna is dead. Well explained and showed could be great.

*Brotherly connection and interractions of Madara and Izuna could be only epic*


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 16, 2012)

Too many assumptions for my liking.


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## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

Naruto was once this bitch as kid was weak as balls and didn't know what the hell he was doing. He was clumsy and constantly getting his ass saved. Who would have thought he's one of the most powerful people in the world?

Tobi is not just Kakashi's foil, but *Naruto's.* They both carry the will of Obito. Tobi being Obito further amplifies the significance of both of their characters.

And Madara *himself *stated that Izuna was DEAD. He didn't rinne tensei him.


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## KCMNaruto (Aug 16, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Someone is mad that "weakling Uchiha boy" outlasted nearly every other villain.
> 
> Maybe he simply isn't as weak as you thought?



Obito is weak simple and I am not mad. 

I will laugh when Kishi show Tobi face and reveal his identify, because he won't be obito, whoever but not him

Kishi reason: Obito?!, this weakling. No way in hell I could make my excellent villian Tobi to be Obito, huh. Are you mad?

Even Tobi in Manga could deny it.
Manga:
Kakashi: You..., You are Obito!
Tobi: NO!!!, don't insult me that badly. how could you confuse me with this weakling, what I did to you to insult me that badly
Kakashi: Right, sorry. I would't want to be him either

you mad?


Ok, It make no sense for me to argue with you. You have your opinions, I have mine, but we know who fans will be trolled, you mad Tobito fans?


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 16, 2012)

I look forward to you vanishing from this forum come chapter 600.


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## Mugivara (Aug 16, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> So why is Izuna mad at Kakashi?



I have a question for Tobito fans:

Why does Obito especially hates Uchiha? Why did he destruct them?

Why did he kill his own parents? What motive you see behind him?


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## KCMNaruto (Aug 16, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Too many assumptions for my liking.



you are right, but it could be filled well. It would get  information on Izuna, Kagami and even Obito for character development. Connection of Kagami with Obito and working for Madara/ Izuna would be epic for me. It could explain why Izuna know so much about Konoha, technique and how to pass trough barrier.
Even better it could explain how he could know so much about Danzo from Kagami.

But you are right, there is one big assumption, so It is not fact


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## KCMNaruto (Aug 16, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Naruto was once this bitch as kid was weak as balls and didn't know what the hell he was doing. He was clumsy and constantly getting his ass saved. Who would have thought he's one of the most powerful people in the world?
> 
> Tobi is not just Kakashi's foil, but *Naruto's.* They both carry the will of Obito. Tobi being Obito further amplifies the significance of both of their characters.
> 
> And Madara *himself *stated that Izuna was DEAD. He didn't rinne tensei him.



You are right. I can't deny your points and facts.

Ok, I give up in arguing with you. However I want Tobi to be epic villian, but Obito never was and never will be epic villian, epic heroes yes but no villian...

Please Kishi use logic and make him whoever but not Obito. Ignore Kakashi year, he got his 5 minute decpihering Space time Ninjutsu Tobi used and that Tobi has Obito sharingan. Now it is time for Naruto to fight really powerfull villian who was Izuna, Tobirama rival, who fought with Minato and Madara who fought with Hashirama.

Obito as heroes is ideal but as villian is joke. Get over with it


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## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

A joke as a villain? Are you kidding me? *Obito and Tobi represent everything that is wrong with the Shinobi World.*

This is the climax of the war. Naruto still doesn't have an answer to peace. I speculate that by defeating Tobi, he will conquer the darkness of the Shinboi of World, bringing about his goal of peace. 

Stop looking at all the godamn possibilities of who he can be.  That's how you'll truly know who Tobi is. Anyone besides Obito is a godamn joke and the only one who is even as close to being good as Obito is some random unknown shinobi Madara took as an apprentice.

You're biased and you show it.


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## KCMNaruto (Aug 16, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> I look forward to you vanishing from this forum come chapter 600.



Oh, really funny. We will see who is right

Don't get me wrong Obito is great and wonderfull well developed character as Heroes, but even in hell he completly not fit to be villian. It could destroy Obito character as well as Obito as heroes scheme and put it to trash...

Besides how could someone beastly and powerfull as Madara took someone as Obito and train him. There was many randoms Uchiha stronger than Obito.


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## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

KCMNaruto, seriously. . It will make a lot more sense to you especially with those arguments you're using.


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## Komoyaru (Aug 16, 2012)

I think it's Obito but Obito has a dark, hidden past after the war. Maybe an Uchiha/ Zetsu took him from the rubble, helped provide for his body parts. But I don't know because Tobi has two sharingans, one being down from Izanagi.


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## nadinkrah (Aug 16, 2012)

obi never sort out Kakashi and never thought about him before they fought. Tobi is mad at anyone who disagrees with his ideas. He never singled out Kakashi. Tobito fans, please find me a scan of Tobi bringing Kakashi up before they even met


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 16, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> I have a question for Tobito fans:
> 
> Why does Obito especially hates Uchiha? Why did he destruct them?
> 
> Why did he kill his own parents? What motive you see behind him?



Probably for the same reason he hates everyone else, he is a nihilist who sees no value in the world or the people that live in it.


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## DemonBorn4569 (Aug 16, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think that would be a better identity for tobi,
> 
> tobi is naruto, except naruto from either the FUTURE or another dimension
> 
> ...


That would be the ultimate fail because if true, that means he would have been caught off guard by his own signature move twice now.


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## KAKASHI10 (Aug 16, 2012)

tobi elder son, the younger son left him so fuck up he cant use any offensive jutsu. He is dead or prision on that dimension.


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## nadinkrah (Aug 16, 2012)

Then there's no reason to point out why he's mad at Kakashi to prove he's Obito. He never targeted Kakashi by himself


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## KCMNaruto (Aug 16, 2012)

Awesome said:


> A joke as a villain? Are you kidding me? *Obito and Tobi represent everything that is wrong with the Shinobi World.*
> 
> This is the climax of the war. Naruto still doesn't have an answer to peace. I speculate that by defeating Tobi, he will conquer the darkness of the Shinboi of World, bringing about his goal of peace.
> 
> ...



Maybe you are right, but only for Obito and Tobi represent. But he can't be same Obito who Kakashi consider as friend.
Obito could lack power, skills , strenght...
*Besides* I will never accept possiblility for Obito to control Nine tails by hi,self, which make him on par with Madara.

Only theory which I could accpet is that Madara transfered his knowledge, and powerfull chakra or somehow own DNA to Obito, who was repaired by Senjuu DNA or Zetsu goo. Even then I can't imagine him powerfull enough to fight with fourth Hokage on par.*Unless Kishi pull more asspulls about time flow is slower in other dimension*

Even If this theory or similliar will be right, I hope he doesn't look same as Obito but changed. He could represent darkness which was in Obito heart, and I would never call him Obito, because he wouldn't belive in evertyhing Obito belived long time ago.

Random theory: Tobi is Madara student. let's see who is right...


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## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

That's basically what I stated in my post. Tobi is no longer Obito as a character. If Obito is anybody, it's Kakashi. Tobi is a shell that Obito once was. Tobi is Obito the *person.*

And controlling the Kyuubi isn't as crazy as you make it seem. It's a *base* sharingan tech he probably learned from Madara.

And again... the strength argument . *Tobi was weaker than beginning of Part 2 Sasuke would be with Obito's sharingan.* Tobi was a little shit with a good ability when he fought Minato.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 16, 2012)

Honestly I think he's only targeting Kakashi now because he's quite clearly the most dangerous one in their group at the moment. He has the counter to Tobi's jutsu and is the only way that we know of besides FTG currently that allows the heroes to land hits on him. 

If Tobi crushes his spirit and his will to fight then he's basically won.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 16, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> Honestly I think he's only targeting Kakashi now because he's quite clearly the most dangerous one in their group at the moment. He has the counter to Tobi's jutsu and is the only way that we know of besides FTG currently that allows the heroes to land hits on him.
> 
> If Tobi crushes his spirit and his will to fight then he's basically won.



Still doesn't explain how he knows what he knows about him.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 16, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Probably for the same reason he hates everyone else, he is a nihilist who sees no value in the world or the people that live in it.



No, he has a special hate for Uchiha. Normally, he hates no one, he just care about his plan. Unless people interfere his plan...

edit:english


----------



## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

nadinkrah said:
			
		

> obi never sort out Kakashi and never thought about him before they fought. Tobi is mad at anyone who disagrees with his ideas. He never singled out Kakashi. Tobito fans, please find me a scan of Tobi bringing Kakashi up before they even met


Tobi made sure that Kakashi saw his sharingan. And he looked straight at him.

Tobi complimented Kakashi for his speed and referred to him as Hatake 'Sharingan' Kakashi. 

Tobi's been just getting more stressed because he's been around Kakashi more then normal. He obviously knows him.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

Where has Tobi shown this hate for his clan? He seems surprisingly indifferent about it.

*Itachi* stated that* Madara* hated the clan. Not Tobi.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 16, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Where has Tobi shown this hate for his clan? He seems surprisingly indifferent about it.
> 
> *Itachi* stated that* Madara* hated the clan. Not Tobi.



Really asking?


----------



## Komoyaru (Aug 16, 2012)

I got to think it's more than one person that makes up Tobi. There's the fun side which represents Obito's nature and then there's Izuna, who might have done something with Obito besides taking his eye.


----------



## gloomygrim (Aug 16, 2012)

"IF" tobi is not obito how could he know everything he does?   This one is one that pissed me off most, but its a fair easy answer and maks some sense.  Zetsu.  Zetsu's ability to record things and show them to other people fits the bill of how tobi can know so much,  zetsu's line "i am the land itself" (near enough i think) is his ability to meld with the land and move about unhindered or maybe he can feel or sense battles goin on,   as we know he eats dead folk, yum, and no were does it say he was made by tobi.

With his ability to record stuff and meld with the land maybe he was about when obito died and recorded the whole thing,  he could have shown tobi (im not sure if its long haired one or short haired one at that time) what he saw and brought back obitos body,  as his black side is the same as what was crushed of tobis,  could he not have seperated his black from white and attached himself to obitos body keeping him alive or at least allowing zetsu to move the body with the eye to who ever the tobi was back then.

i dunno probly not the case but fun to think on.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 16, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Still doesn't explain how he knows what he knows about him.



Whether he's Obito or not he was there in some way during the fight. That much is certain. It's not impossible to say that he witnessed their conversation and is now berating him because of it to fuck with his head.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 16, 2012)

Tobi = Obito's father = Uchiha Kagami

its coming folks... father-son tragedy round 2




Awesome said:


> Where has Tobi shown this hate for his clan? He seems surprisingly indifferent about it.
> 
> *Itachi* stated that* Madara* hated the clan. Not Tobi.



actually, he said it to Itachi's face "you know i have a grudge against the Uchiha Clan...." cant remember which but its in a very recent chapter


----------



## zantha (Aug 16, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think that would be a better identity for tobi,
> 
> tobi is naruto, except naruto from either the FUTURE or another dimension
> 
> ...


i had a simaler idea. tobi is menma, the AU naruto form the newest film.


----------



## nadinkrah (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi made sure that Kakashi saw his sharingan. And he looked straight at him.
> 
> Tobi complimented Kakashi for his speed and referred to him as Hatake 'Sharingan' Kakashi.
> 
> Tobi's been just getting more stressed because he's been around Kakashi more then normal. He obviously knows him.



Tobi has shown his sharingan to other people. Kakashi wasn't the only case.

So did Pain and a bunch of other ninjas? Everyone refers to Kakashi that way lmao.

Yea, it's not because Naruto made him sweat and he's fighting 4 top tier ninjas at the same time including bijuu.


----------



## Friday (Aug 16, 2012)

Everyone can see why Tobi is possibly Obito, but can they see why kids love cinnamon toast crunch?


----------



## KevKev (Aug 16, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think that would be a better identity for tobi,
> 
> tobi is naruto, except naruto from either the FUTURE or another dimension
> 
> ...


Tobi from the other dimension is Ten Ten.

And you know why if you compare both dimensions


----------



## Punished Pathos (Aug 16, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think that would be a better identity for tobi,
> 
> tobi is naruto, except naruto from either the FUTURE or another dimension
> 
> ...


There is a better chance of me getting a lapdance from Tsunade than Tobi being an AU Naruto.


----------



## HK-47 (Aug 16, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think that would be a better identity for tobi,
> 
> tobi is naruto, except naruto from either the FUTURE or another dimension
> 
> ...


And once again library quality comes down another few notches.

Bravo OP, Bravo.


----------



## Summers (Aug 16, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> There is a better chance of me getting a lapdance from Tsunade than Tobi being an AU Naruto.



May I recommend some Hentai?


----------



## Punished Pathos (Aug 16, 2012)

Summers said:


> May I recommend some Hentai?



No. I don't watch/read any of that mess. lol


----------



## Scizor (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi's been just getting more stressed because he's been around Kakashi more then normal. He obviously knows him.



That is pushing it.

I'm just saiyan


----------



## Shukumei (Aug 16, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think that would be a better identity for tobi,
> 
> tobi is naruto, except naruto from either the FUTURE or another dimension
> 
> ...


You must have been watching Noein.


----------



## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

nadinkrah said:


> Tobi has shown his sharingan to other people. Kakashi wasn't the only case.


True, but he needlessly looked directly down at Kakashi.



> So did Pain and a bunch of other ninjas? Everyone refers to Kakashi that way lmao.


True, but it's still suspicious how he said it.



> Yea, it's not because Naruto made him sweat and he's fighting 4 top tier ninjas at the same time including bijuu.


Has he gone off yelling and personally attacking anyone else? No. So why would he suddenly take out all his anger on Kakashi? Simple. He knows him. It's just obvious at this point. If you're seriously arguing against Tobi personally knowing Kakashi, then you're in denial.

Why else would Tobi point at him and start saying all these personal things to him. How would he even know it? It's because he's someone that knows Kakashi personally and was at the battle of Kannabi Bridge.



Scizor said:


> That is pushing it.
> 
> I'm just saiyan


How? We've seen that he's starting to get emotional and deep only when talking to Kakashi.


----------



## Scizor (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> How? We've seen that he's starting to get emotional and deep only when talking to Kakashi.



Emotional?

He seemed pretty 'cool' to me.


----------



## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

Scizor said:
			
		

> Emotional?
> 
> He seemed pretty 'cool' to me.


I'm referring to the way he was talking and what he was saying. You could also tell by his eyes that he was sad.


----------



## VanzZz (Aug 16, 2012)

By now it should be plenty obvious who Tobi is...


----------



## Scizor (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm referring to the way he was talking and what he was saying. You could also tell by his eyes that he was sad.



I couldn't tell he was sad.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

It looked like he was angry way more than he was sad.


----------



## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

Scizor said:
			
		

> I couldn't tell he was sad.


It was like a mixture of anger, hatred, and sadness. I can't tell 100% due to the mask but he definitely displayed some emotions towards Kakashi.

But then again, it only really seems like he's really sad if you think he's Obito. So, if you don't support the theory you probably won't notice the little things, I guess. I guess whether you support a certain theory or not effects which things you pick up and try to analyze.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 16, 2012)

Scizor said:


> I couldn't tell he was sad.


People see what they want to see. Some say they see anger, some say they see sorrow. Either way the only emotion you're probably going to actually "see" from Tobi in those panels is the emotion you're specifically looking for. Personal interpretation and whatnot.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 16, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> I have a question for Tobito fans:
> 
> Why does Obito especially hates Uchiha? Why did he destruct them?
> 
> Why did he kill his own parents? What motive you see behind him?



Who says his parents were alive during that time? He hates everyone. But he was called a loser amongst the genius Uchihas. That would piss me off. But mostly because he just saw it as an opportunity to kill.



First Tsurugi said:


> Probably for the same reason he hates everyone else, he is a nihilist who sees no value in the world or the people that live in it.



I like this.



Mugivara said:


> No, he has a special hate for Uchiha. Normally, he hates no one, he just care about his plan. Unless people interprete his plan...



Yeah a special hate for the Uchiha, such a huge hate that he has been taking care of Sasuke nonstop and making him more poweful. 



jacamo said:


> *Tobi = Obito's father = Uchiha Kagami*
> 
> its coming folks... father-son tragedy round 2
> 
> ...



Shut up already. You base this on ABSOLUTELY nothing. At least with Obito theories, its based on SOMETHING. But you, you go, OMG THATS AN OLD UCHIHA, must be his dad...................

And no I don't recall that page, Itachi assumed it I believe, but go ahead and find the page then I'll believe it. My memory is vague on this conversation. I may be wrong, I just remember the Itachi studying his movements and knowing stuff that he shouldn't.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

Yea, Tobi has never shown his grudge. The only one who said he had a grudge was Itachi, who mistook him for Madara. Like I said, Tobi is surprisingly indifferent about his clan.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 16, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Yea, Tobi has never shown his grudge. The only one who said he had a grudge was Itachi, who mistook him for Madara. Like I said, Tobi is surprisingly indifferent about his clan.



Seems like Tobi has a grudge against Kakashi though! =p


----------



## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Yeah a special hate for the Uchiha, such a huge hate that he has been taking care of Sasuke nonstop and making him more poweful.
> 
> And no I don't recall that page, Itachi assumed it I believe, but go ahead and find the page then I'll believe it. My memory is vague on this conversation. I may be wrong, I just remember the Itachi studying his movements and knowing stuff that he shouldn't.





Awesome said:


> Yea, Tobi has never shown his grudge. The only one who said he had a grudge was Itachi, who mistook him for Madara. Like I said, Tobi is surprisingly indifferent about his clan.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

Surprise surprise 

Must be Izuna. Only Izuna gets emotional over Kakashi.

edit:


----------



## Scizor (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It was like a mixture of anger, hatred, and sadness. I can't tell 100% due to the mask but he definitely displayed some emotions towards Kakashi.
> 
> But then again, it only really seems like he's really sad if you think he's Obito. So, if you don't support the theory you probably won't notice the little things, I guess. I guess whether you support a certain theory or not effects which things you pick up and try to analyze.



That you see what you want to see doesn't necissarily mean it's there.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


>



ah yes, now I remember, but even then he is under the guise of Madara.
Hates Konoha too. MUST BE MADARA. No I don't see how Obito hating the Uchiha is difficult. A group of people who would kill their siblings to unlock more power. I even hate them.


----------



## nadinkrah (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Has he gone off yelling and personally attacking anyone else? No. So why would he suddenly take out all his anger on Kakashi? Simple. He knows him. It's just obvious at this point. If you're seriously arguing against Tobi personally knowing Kakashi, then you're in denial.



How am I in denial when all you're doing is assuming things to support your argument.(like the rest of tobito fans) Why would Tobi say he got the eye at the bridge, instead of saying he already had it? tsk.tsk.



> Why else would Tobi point at him and start saying all these personal things to him. How would he even know it? It's because he's someone that knows Kakashi personally and was at the battle of Kannabi Bridge.



Tobi was rambling bout the way people live. Show me where he insulted Kakashi individually..


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 16, 2012)

nadinkrah said:


> Tobi was rambling bout the way people live. Show me where he insulted Kakashi individually..



Chou-Biju Dama
POINTING at Kakashi

Chou-Biju Dama
OBVIOUSLY knows Kakashi makes excuses in front of his own (OBITOS) Grave, makes much more sense


----------



## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Surprise surprise
> 
> Must be Izuna. Only Izuna gets emotional over Kakashi.
> 
> edit:


You're getting it all wrong. I'm still a Tobito believer too. It's just that it's not correct to say that Tobi doesn't hate the Uchiha, when he clearly does. Maybe Tobi(Obito) hates them because he was treated like an outcast for not being that strong.



Scizor said:


> That you see what you want to see doesn't necissarily mean it's there.


It is when Tobi is practically quoting Obito.



Mistshadow said:


> ah yes, now I remember, but even then he is under the guise of Madara.
> Hates Konoha too. MUST BE MADARA. No I don't see how Obito hating the Uchiha is difficult. A group of people who would kill their siblings to unlock more power. I even hate them.


Yeah, he could have easily accumulated a hatred for the Uchiha. Maybe some Uchiha were actually responsible for Rin's death.



nadinkrah said:


> How am I in denial when all you're doing is assuming things to support your argument.(like the rest of tobito fans) Why would Tobi say he got the eye at the bridge, instead of saying he already had it? tsk.tsk.




So, how exactly am I making assumptions?





> Tobi was rambling bout the way people live. Show me where he insulted Kakashi individually..


"Kakashi, you always open your mouth so easily. It's no wonder you've lived a life of regret."

"I've told you not to open your mouth so easily! You're just words and no actions! What someone like you says is worth absolutely nothing!"

Deal with it.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

I actually forgot about that scene with Itachi. Yea, he probably does have a grudge against the Uchiha.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 16, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> ah yes, now I remember, but even then he is under the guise of Madara.
> Hates Konoha too. MUST BE MADARA. No I don't see how Obito hating the Uchiha is difficult. A group of people who would kill their siblings to unlock more power. *I even hate them*.



So because you yourself hate the Uchiha that is supposed to convince us that Obito hated the Uchiha?


----------



## Scizor (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It is when Tobi is practically quoting Obito.



I disagree; as far as we _know_ right now it could be a red herring.

I'm getting sick of the assumptions that get thrown around as 'facts' in this thread by several users. I agree that as it stands now the manga is pointing towards Tobi being Obito, but the assumptions and the smug they're accompanied by are sickening imo because, as it stands now, Tobi's identity is still a secret.

Theorizing is fun, but acting like you _know_ the answer is not.


----------



## nadinkrah (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So, how exactly am I making assumptions?



You've ignored the fact that he also took shots at Naruto and only focus on Kakashi to support your argument. Then later he goes on rambling about the way people live/etc. Like I said before, why would he need to get something he already had? He sure was quick to point out that he gave NAgato the rinnengan, why wouldn't he correct Kakashi?



> "Kakashi, you always open your mouth so easily. It's no wonder you've lived a life of regret."
> 
> "I've told you not to open your mouth so easily! You're just words and no actions! What someone like you says is worth absolutely nothing!"
> 
> Deal with it.



Naruto is irrelevant and is just a pawn who is supposed to simulate Sasuke. Lets just focus and what he thinks about Kakashi lol. Tobi somehow gave Nagato the rinnengan, and fought Minato with no knowledge. Kisame after seeing "Obito" still chose to obey him. lol, denial denial everwhere.


----------



## Dantaeres (Aug 16, 2012)

nadinkrah said:


> You've ignored the fact that he also took shots at Naruto and only focus on Kakashi to support your argument. Then later he goes on rambling about the way people live/etc. Like I said before, why would he need to get something he already had? He sure was quick to point out that he gave NAgato the rinnengan, why wouldn't he correct Kakashi?
> 
> 
> 
> Naruto is irrelevant and is just a pawn who is supposed to simulate Sasuke. Lets just focus and what he thinks about Kakashi lol. Tobi somehow gave Nagato the rinnengan, and fought Minato with no knowledge. Kisame after seeing "Obito" still chose to obey him. lol, denial denial everwhere.



He was impersonating Madara, he needed to keep his fa?ade, if he shouted at Kakashi at the time and showed his personal grudge everyone would be suspicious about his identity now that everyone knows that he's not Madara he's starting to reveal himself.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 16, 2012)

I don't get it.

Obito, if he was Tobi, was willing to murder his sensei's newborn child, his sensei's wife, and his sensei himself, along with countless other citizens of Konoha.

Why is it any harder to believe that his hatred extends to his own clan?


----------



## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

nadinkrah said:


> You've ignored the fact that he also took shots at Naruto and only focus on Kakashi to support your argument.


It doesn't change the fact that he personally attacked Kakashi. He wasn't nearly as angry with everyone else as he was with Kakashi. 



> Then later he goes on rambling about the way people live/etc.


What?



> Like I said before, why would he need to get something he already had?


He didn't have the sharingan until the Battle of Kannabi bridge... 



> He sure was quick to point out that he gave NAgato the rinnengan, why wouldn't he correct Kakashi?


I'm pretty sure Kakashi didn't get the impression that Tobi simply stole the eye. Also, Kakashi said "You're..." and then was interrupted by Tobi.





> Naruto is irrelevant and is just a pawn who is supposed to simulate Sasuke. Lets just focus and what he thinks about Kakashi lol.


How was that a personal attack against Naruto? 



> Tobi somehow gave Nagato the rinnengan


Insisting Tobi's claims while posing as Madara are 100% irrefutable canon.



> Kisame after seeing Obito still chose to obey him. lol denial denial everwhere.


I don't see the point you're trying to make here. Because we know Tobi's not Madara, so he obviously got Kisame to join him some other way. So, this applies to any candidate. 

You're taking something completely irrelevant to all this and trying to use it against the Tobito theory, and you're saying I'M in denial? Lol. This is pathetic. Come back when you can debate better.


----------



## Dantaeres (Aug 16, 2012)

Ok I know that this may not be a valid argument, but still it may be a hint :
Chou-Biju Dama
The elder toad told Naruto that he would fight a young man with great powers in his eyes, it may refer to his fight againt Sasuke but it could be referring to his fight against Tobi.


----------



## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

Dantaeres said:
			
		

> Ok I know that this may not be a valid argument, but still it may be a hint :
> Chou-Biju Dama
> The elder toad told Naruto that he would fight a young man with great powers in his eyes, it may refer to his fight againt Sasuke but it could be referring to his fight against Tobi.


I doubt it...


----------



## Dantaeres (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I doubt it...



Sorry but doubt what ? that he's referring to Sasuke or to Tobi


----------



## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

Dantaeres said:
			
		

> Sorry but doubt what ? that he's referring to Sasuke or to Tobi


I doubt he was referring to Tobi. 

I mean, I don't think a 30 something year old would still be counted as a young man. Then again, considering how old the Sage Toad was, I guess it's not impossible.


----------



## nadinkrah (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It doesn't change the fact that he personally attacked Kakashi. He wasn't nearly as angry with everyone else as he was with Kakashi.



He took shots at the only people who talked to him...



> *He didn't have the sharingan until the Battle of Kannabi bridge... *
> 
> I'm pretty sure Kakashi didn't get the impression that Tobi simply stole the eye. Also, Kakashi said "You're..." and then was interrupted by Tobi.



Proof? Another baseless assumption. wow, no wonder tobito fans are laughed at everyday.



> How was that a personal attack against Naruto?



He's never targeted Kakashi until now. Tobi was going about his plan without hinting he knew Kakashi at all. Kakashi just happens to be fighting him, and talking back.



> Insisting Tobi's claims while posing as Madara are 100% irrefutable canon.



Timeline > you and your theory



> I don't see the point you're trying to make here. Because we know Tobi's not Madara, so he obviously got Kisame to join him some other way. So, this applies to any candidate.



We know Tobi is someone Kisame recognizes. Kisame said he felt confident after seeing the face of Tobi. 



> You're taking something completely irrelevant to all this and trying to use it against the Tobito theory, and you're saying I'M in denial? Lol. This is pathetic. Come back when you can debate better.



lol yea because Kisame would recognize obito right? Tired of debating against someone who wants to make his fav char relevant again. Get over it, he's dead.


----------



## Augors (Aug 16, 2012)

is it possible Tobi was created from the Rinngan before Madara death?


----------



## NW (Aug 16, 2012)




----------



## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

Obito didn't have the sharingan before the battle of the Bridge. The fuck you talking about? That's when he got his sharingan.

Tobi says that he got it at the BATTLE at the bridge. That's when Obito got his. If Tobi isn't Obito, Tobi would literally have to be at that battle.


----------



## NW (Aug 16, 2012)

nadinkrah said:


> He took shots at the only people who talked to him...


I reccomend re-reading what he said to Kakashi.





> Proof? Another baseless assumption. wow, no wonder tobito fans are laughed at everyday.


How do I need any proof of this? Obito had his normal eyes before the battle of Kannabi bridge. If you call that a baseless assumption then you need help.





> He's never targeted Kakashi until now. Tobi was going about his plan without hinting he knew Kakashi at all. Kakashi just happens to be fighting him, and talking back.


He's never even been around Kakashi this much to say anything like that to him.





> Timeline > you and your theory


Again, an assumed timeline based on Tobi's claims while posing as Madara. According to your logic, Kurama's attack never happened. 





> We know Tobi is someone Kisame recognizes. Kisame said he felt confident after seeing the face of Tobi.


He recognized him because he was the one controlling Yagura...





> lol yea because Kisame would recognize obito right?


Yes, because if he's Tobi, he's the one who was controlling Yagura. Learn to read.



> Tired of debating against someone who wants to make his fav char relevant again. Get over it, he's dead.


Correction: Tobi's my favorite character. But Obito's the only logical identity for him and that's why I support it. Plus I love the idea of Tobi being Obito. So, Obito'd be my favorite character if he's Tobi because they'd be the same person.


----------



## Dantaeres (Aug 16, 2012)

nadinkrah said:


> He took shots at the only people who talked to him...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I already gave you an answer for why Tobi never targeted Kakashi, he needed to keep his fa?ade as Madara so that he could go to war, Tsunade said it the name Madara is what made the war possible.

As for your other question, if Tobi is Obito and Madara knew him then why wouldn't Kisame know Obito too, Madara was working with Obito and so was 
Kisame, of course they could know each other.

Sincerely the only problem with the Tobito theory is his size and his power during his fight against Minato, the rest can be easily explained.


----------



## nadinkrah (Aug 16, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Obito didn't have the sharingan before the battle of the Bridge. The fuck you talking about? That's when he got his sharingan.
> 
> Tobi says that he got it at the BATTLE at the bridge. That's when Obito got his. If Tobi isn't Obito, Tobi would literally have to be at that battle.



Tobi isn't confirmed to be Obito, stop acting like Kishi flat out said he is. We know Tobi collects eyes..


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He recognized him because he was the one controlling Yagura...





> Yes, because if he's Tobi, he's the one who was controlling Yagura. Learn to read.



Two WTF statements that make absolutely no sense.

*Statement 1:* WTF did you type? It made no sense. Re-phrase it.
*Statement 2:* Kisame doesn't even know who the hell Obito is. So, how did he recognize Tobi when he took of his mask during their meeting? *Tobi is someone that Kisame knows and recognizes.*


----------



## Awesome (Aug 16, 2012)

nadinkrah said:


> Tobi isn't confirmed to be Obito, stop acting like Kishi flat out said he is. We know Tobi collects eyes..



Where are you coming up with this? I just said that Tobi had to be at that battle.


----------



## Osaeri (Aug 16, 2012)

that's a pretty strong statement from Obito.



look at his face those look like wrinkles even though he got hit by a boulder

Kakashi admits his regret in front of Obito, and this could be the start



Obito's right face, Tobi's left

*Spoiler*: __ 








*Spoiler*: __ 








Obito's full face no goggles no earmuff, headphones or w/e he has on his ears
and Tobi unmasked


*Spoiler*: __ 









This has got to be my weakest point for Obito-Tobi because i'm empty minded right now lol


----------



## nadinkrah (Aug 16, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Where are you coming up with this? I just said that Tobi had to be at that battle.



I misread his post. I thought you guys said "Tobi" didn't have sharingan eyes before the battle.


----------



## Dantaeres (Aug 16, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I reccomend re-reading what he said to Kakashi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How can Obito be the one who was controlling Yagura, do I miss something here ? maybe he was controlling him after Madara died but before that he was too young, Zabuza was born during the Bloody Mist era and he must be the same age as Obito.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 16, 2012)

More things I thought about while I was frolicking elsewhere.

Obito's eyes were normal Sharingan when he "died". A nice thing for sure sure, Sharingan is a precious gift, but it was only a two tomoe thingy. Why would Madara or Tobi, care about it? There is a wall of these and they aren't from the massacre, because Danzo is the one who snatched those. However, let's assume that wall comes from the massacre and whoever Tobi is, he needs that eye. Let's be realistic here. Kagami, Setsuna, neither need eyes, they have their own (and don't you Tobito naysayers say there can be a story spun for it, when there are stories Tobito supporters have for many things, and you accuse them of 'explaining too much' and that's why you dismiss them and make lists with plotholes that aren't really there). Only Izuna would care for that eye and even then, why would he settle for one eye alone? Because that's what Tobi's doing. He's settling for Obito's eye alone, when he has a full wall of eyes. He has more sharingans and he leaves the other hidden, clearly diminishing its importance to himself and his opponents and his readers. No matter how pathetic that sharingan would be, it's still a sharingan, so Tobi could use its powers, but he doesn't. He keeps it away, just a Izanagi condition. He gives it no importance _whatsoever_. This only makes sense if the eye is a personal thing. Who else but Obito?

Time travel is bullshit, either from Tobito or Tobisuke, even if I love Tobisuke in fanfiction (where... I've only encountered once, much to my eternal disappointment). Both their pains can be abolished by changing things from the past, therefore this isn't possible. Furthermore, lol at Sasuke having a hand in the Uchiha massacre, no matter how small it may be. Don't say Nagato, eh? After all that, his problem with the ninja system wasn't just because his dog and Yahiko died.

It's too obvious! There's no way he'd make Tobito! Don't forget Kishimoto thinks he writes for 12 year old boys (second year kids from middle school). He's not writing a Sherlock Holmes novel here.

One thing that is somewhat unrelated to the Tobi debacle (or not, considering some theories as to how Tobi's eye hasn't gotten blind yet). Zetsu's white part = hashirama / senju, but I don't understand black part = madara / uchiha. Thematically, yeah, I understand where that comes from, but was there ever said in the text? I guess black part recording is very sharingan-like, copying and all.

I'm very fearfull about the third tomoe on Tobi's forehead. That thing does not bode well. The fuck is that for there. I can guess what it could be and I don't like it one bit. 



Dantaeres said:


> Ok I know that this may not be a valid argument, but still it may be a hint :
> Chou-Biju Dama
> The elder toad told Naruto that he would fight a young man with great powers in his eyes, it may refer to his fight againt Sasuke but it could be referring to his fight against Tobi.



Naruto fought Nagato after that. That frog is old, Jiraiya was a young lad according to Pa frog and the elder is much older than him. People thought that was hinting at VS Sasuke, but truth is, it was VS Nagato the frog was hinting at.


----------



## Dantaeres (Aug 16, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> Naruto fought Nagato after that. That frog is old, Jiraiya was a young lad according to Pa frog and the elder is much older than him. People thought that was hinting at VS Sasuke, but truth is, it was VS Nagato the frog was hinting at.



You mean Edo Tensei Nagato, I highly doubt that, but that doesn't matter anyway it was just a minor point.

I still think that Tobi is Obito but as it stands now there's a lot of problems with the timeline. 

Well I'm bored of arguing just wait and see.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 16, 2012)

Dantaeres said:


> You mean Edo Tensei Nagato, I highly doubt that, but that doesn't matter anyway it was just a minor point.
> 
> I still think that Tobi is Obito but as it stands now there's a lot of problems with the timeline.
> 
> Well I'm bored of arguing just wait and see.



Either Edo Nagato or Edo Itachi, but I agree it can be Tobi too. They're fighting right now after all. It just isn't Sasuke. Too much 'you know who he is' and all that.  It makes sense chronologically too. Naruto's main events since then have been that, meeting Bee and then fighting Tobi. Frog Sage should have said, you'll fight a lot of young lads with special eyes. If VS Sasuke even happens, it will be four of them.


----------



## Dantaeres (Aug 16, 2012)

Yeah sure it isn't Sasuke but with all the freaks with super eyes I don't think this will ever be answered ; I shouldn't have brought the point in the first place it was stupid now that I think about it.


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 16, 2012)

Obito is pretty much confirmed


----------



## ch1p (Aug 17, 2012)

All signs point to it at the moment. I really hate excuses such as 'red herring'. They can be used for any theory, really. Tobi being Madara was a 'red herring' too.



Dantaeres said:


> Yeah sure it isn't Sasuke but with all the freaks with super eyes I don't think this will ever be answered ; I shouldn't have brought the point in the first place it was stupid now that I think about it.



It's not stupid. I liked that setup from the old frog very much.


----------



## Obito (Aug 17, 2012)

Zetsu parts + Obito = Tobi.

.


----------



## Nic (Aug 17, 2012)

Tobi being Madara was flat out stated.  Tobi being Obito was never stated even now Kishi kept Kakashi from telling the world that tobi was Obito by having Naruto interrupt so he'd could go and smash that mask.


----------



## Lawliet (Aug 17, 2012)

Dantaeres said:


> Ok I know that this may not be a valid argument, but still it may be a hint :
> Chou-Biju Dama
> The elder toad told Naruto that he would fight a young man with great powers in his eyes, it may refer to his fight againt Sasuke but it could be referring to his fight against Tobi.



I 100% agree with this, I once posted it but I dont think anyone replied lol..
The reason why I believe in this cuz, naruto said He knows, and the frog was like, you know?  and what he is? naruto was like yeah im prepared for everything, thinking the frog is talking about sasuky.
So Yeah, I believe he was talking about tobi..


----------



## Ricky Sen (Aug 17, 2012)

nadinkrah said:


> Proof? Another baseless assumption. wow, no wonder tobito fans are laughed at everyday.



Did you _seriously_ just say that we don't know when Obito unlocked his sharingan? It's a crucial plot point in Kakashi Gaiden. Do you actually read the manga or do you just berate people over it? Either way you are being *way*
 too aggressive over something you know so little about. Evern if you were right:  are you aware that this is a _children's manga_?

*tl;dr: Read the manga. Show a little freaking respect.*


----------



## nadinkrah (Aug 17, 2012)

Ricky Sen said:


> Did you _seriously_ just say that we don't know when Obito unlocked his sharingan? It's a crucial plot point in Kakashi Gaiden. Do you actually read the manga or do you just berate people over it? Either way you are being *way*
> too aggressive over something you know so little about. Evern if you were right:  are you aware that this is a _children's manga_?
> 
> *tl;dr: Read the manga. Show a little freaking respect.*



how about you read the last page


----------



## Nic (Aug 17, 2012)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I 100% agree with this, I once posted it but I dont think anyone replied lol..
> The reason why I believe in this cuz, naruto said He knows, and the frog was like, you know?  and what he is? naruto was like yeah im prepared for everything, thinking the frog is talking about sasuky.
> So Yeah, I believe he was talking about tobi..



I still think he's referring to Sasuke.  Kishi has plenty of time to build up that fight after this one.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 17, 2012)

Osaeri said:


> that's a pretty strong statement from Obito.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why are people trying to compare Obitos face to Tobis face?

Its Madaras face we have seen. 

The last two pictures do look alike tho.


----------



## alienworkshopguy (Aug 17, 2012)

100% NOT Obito, sry. Tobi DOES have Obitos eye, obviously. Like I have stated before, Tobi is a mix of Madara dna and hashirama dna (Basically a "perfect" version of zetsu) and takes on the memories and personalities of the eyes he uses (the eyes still contain chakra of their original user, which white zetsu can clone and receive the original persons memory from their chakra).

Remember the zetsu clone of Kisame had kisames memories of actions that happened to original Kisame in his fight with bee. Also would explain Tobis playfull personality when he was first introduced, having put back Obitos eyes; we can assume he was using someone elses to control yagura, and switched once tobi was publicly in akatsuki.


----------



## Combine (Aug 17, 2012)

The reason it cannot be Obito is this:

Tobi claimed he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. Nagato first started using his Rinnegan in the Second Ninja War

Tobi also claimed he inspired Yahiko to form Akatsuki. Akatsuki was formed prior to the Third Ninja War (at around which time, Yahiko died).

Obito died at the end of the Third Ninja War.

Oh, and if Nagato's Rinnegan is really Madara's, then it makes it even less likely Tobi is Obito, because Madara would likely have died prior to Nagato obtaining the eyes (since Madara himself claimed he died shortly after awakening them). Therefore, Madara couldn't have been around to inspire Yahiko for example.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 17, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Who says his parents were alive during that time? He hates everyone. But he was called a loser amongst the genius Uchihas. That would piss me off. But mostly because he just saw it as an opportunity to kill.
> 
> 
> I like this.
> Yeah a special hate for the Uchiha, such a huge hate that he has been taking care of Sasuke nonstop and making him more poweful.



I'm sorry but, you just ignore things which you can't explain and you assume things only because you want them to be.

What happened to his family? Did they disappear?

Who told you he hates everyone? We have been watching Tobi for so long and I've never seen him hating people. He always talks about an ideal world but not hate.

Even if people think that he was a loser, that doesn't make him especially hate and destruct Uchiha clan.

So, why did he kill his own parents? What motive made him do this?

You can claim that Tobi is Obito, it's ok but I really don't understand how you can claim that Tobi protects Sasuke. Do we read the same manga?

Tobi will fuck Sasuke when he needs. You all know this...


----------



## jacamo (Aug 17, 2012)

seeing as this thread moves so damn fast, let me say it again

*Tobi = Obito's father = Uchiha Kagami*

Tobi's tragedy will mirror Kakashi's tragedy



Mistshadow said:


> Shut up already. You base this on ABSOLUTELY nothing. At least with Obito theories, its based on SOMETHING. But you, you go, OMG THATS AN OLD UCHIHA, must be his dad...................



telling someone to shut up for expressing their opinion is just immature 

and i base it on the timeline, the same timeline that blows the Obito argument out of the water with its inconsistencies and plotholes




> And no I don't recall that page, Itachi assumed it I believe, but go ahead and find the page then I'll believe it. My memory is vague on this conversation. I may be wrong, I just remember the Itachi studying his movements and knowing stuff that he shouldn't.



Misty your memory is abysmal... it was less than 7 chapters ago

but then again, maybe youre just a kid who is less than half my age







nadinkrah said:


> Tobi isn't confirmed to be Obito, stop acting like Kishi flat out said he is. We know Tobi collects eyes..



but thats their specialty 




alienworkshopguy said:


> Remember the zetsu clone of Kisame had kisames memories of actions that happened to original Kisame in his fight with bee. Also would explain Tobis playfull personality when he was first introduced, having put back Obitos eyes; we can assume he was using someone elses to control yagura, and switched once tobi was publicly in akatsuki.



very good point, makes me think it might actually happen


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 17, 2012)

Combine said:


> The reason it cannot be Obito is this:
> 
> Tobi claimed he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. Nagato first started using his Rinnegan in the Second Ninja War
> 
> ...



Those were Madara's deeds, not Tobi's.

He straight up tells you, "I, Madara Uchiha, gave Nagato his Rinnegan, and had Yahiko create Akatsuki."

Since we know Tobi is not Madara, it can be assumed that the true Madara Uchiha was the one responsible.



Mugivara said:


> Who told you he hates everyone? We have been watching Tobi for so long and I've never seen him hating people. He always talks about an ideal world but not hate.



"This world is completely worthless. There is nothing left in it but misery."



jacamo said:


> seeing as this thread moves so damn fast, let me say it again
> 
> *Tobi = Obito's father = Uchiha Kagami*
> 
> Tobi's tragedy will mirror Kakashi's tragedy



Obito's hypothetical father wouldn't be able to relate to Kakashi at all.

Their situations are completely different: Kakashi lost his father, Obito's dad lost his son.


----------



## Nic (Aug 17, 2012)

Combine said:


> The reason it cannot be Obito is this:
> 
> Tobi claimed he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. Nagato first started using his Rinnegan in the Second Ninja War
> 
> ...




Tobi was impersonating Madara.

Madara is the one that gave Nagato the rin'negan.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 17, 2012)

Nic said:


> Tobi was impersonating Madara.
> 
> Madara is the one that gave Nagato the rin'negan.


Mind telling me how Madara did that if he was dead?



First Tsurugi said:


> Those were Madara's deeds, not Tobi's.
> 
> He straight up tells you, "I, Madara Uchiha, gave Nagato his Rinnegan, and had Yahiko create Akatsuki."
> 
> Since we know Tobi is not Madara, it can be assumed that the true Madara Uchiha was the one responsible.


I don't see the name "Madara Uchiha" mentioned when he says those things.

Chou-Biju Dama

Chou-Biju Dama

"Hehe... You're mistaken about two things, but since you're about to die, I'll enlighten you."

"I am the one who induced Yahiko to form Akatsuki."

"And... I am the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan."


----------



## Nic (Aug 17, 2012)

Madara basically confirmed it himself that he was still alive when Nagato got his eyes.  >.>


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 17, 2012)

Nic said:


> Madara basically confirmed it himself that he was still alive when Nagato got his eyes.  >.>


Chou-Biju Dama

"So it finally happened..." "It would appear that little brat Nagato managed to grow."

It's a vague statement that could mean what you're saying, but the fact that Edo Madara was brought back with his eyes is telling me otherwise, given the track record with Itachi and Nagato's eye cases. Perhaps he merely observed Nagato before he died and had Tobi give him the Rinnegan?

Either way, he refers to Nagato as a little brat so even if I'm wrong that's still a pretty big indicator that he died when Nagato was a kid... and what with Kishi's recent interview stating that Madara and Tobi know each other... how does Obito work in that case?


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 17, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> "This world is completely worthless. There is nothing left in it but misery."



No, this is not hate, if you were right, Tobi would kill humanity instead creating an ideal world.

But as he stated, he hates Uchiha... He killed 'em all including his own family(if he's Obito)...


----------



## Nic (Aug 17, 2012)

Then tobi would have called Nagato the fourth rikudou not the third.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 17, 2012)

Nic said:


> Then tobi would have called Nagato the fourth rikudou not the third.



Chou-Biju Dama

"I am Madara Uchiha with the power of Senju Hashirama! I am the only one who can be the second Sage of the 6 paths!"

He's posing in that sentence. He thinks of Madara as the 2nd Rikudou. Nagato being the 3rd just means he doesn't count himself. Remember. Tobi is no one. He doesn't want to be anyone.


----------



## Nic (Aug 17, 2012)

Isn't that convenient? >.>


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 17, 2012)

MrCoolguy said:


> Pretty sure Tobi is Obito guys you heard it first from me.



No, we haven't. You are not the first person to say Tobi is Obito.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 17, 2012)

Nic said:


> Isn't that convenient? >.>


At least you know for sure that he's lying when he mentions that he's Madara Uchiha in the same sentence. Anything else he says is up for debate.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 17, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Obito's hypothetical father wouldn't be able to relate to Kakashi at all.
> 
> Their situations are completely different: Kakashi lost his father, Obito's dad lost his son.



lmao listen to yourself... they would both be father-son tragedies

if Tobi = Obito's father then their situations are *very* relatable



Nic said:


> Madara basically confirmed it himself that he was still alive when Nagato got his eyes.  >.>



no he didnt

why do Obito fans lie about everything?


----------



## sjbluedog24 (Aug 17, 2012)

*Possible reincarnation jutsu?*

Do you think it would be possible for a Rinnegan user to have a jutsu that can actually reincarnate the caster into a host body they desired so that their soul(or part of your soul or conscience) could manifest into the host body? 

To clarify, lets say Madara used this reincarnation jutsu on Obito. Madara would reincarnate his soul into Obito's body, but the real Madara would still be present and alive. However, the result of this jutsu makes Obito(Tobi) a _second_  Madara, but with two seperate consciousness inhabiting the same body, with Tobi's("Madara's") being dominant personality, and Obito being pushed back into the subconscious. 

Maybe it could explain why he pretends to be Madara and why he considers himself shell of his former self?


----------



## Easley (Aug 17, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> At least you know for sure that he's lying when he mentions that he's Madara Uchiha in the same sentence. Anything else he says is up for debate.


I'm distinctly unimpressed that Kishi gave priority to a twist which made Tobi an unreliable source of information. His acting prowess leaves you guessing. It's impossible to know what is true and what is a fabrication. I find it somewhat amusing that people are willing to believe him, now that he supports their position. Obito seems likely but I'd love a good mindfuck. The unmasking being exactly as predicted would be a huge letdown.


----------



## Yuna (Aug 17, 2012)

That's not how reincarnation works. That's splitting your soul. And no.

Also, don't make Tobito threads. Keep it in the Official Tobi Identity thread.


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 17, 2012)

No.That's horcruxes and they don't exist in Naruto,

Also Tobi is not Obito.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 17, 2012)

I hope that Tobi is an elder Naruto that wants to fuck up this dimension.

Why you might ask? Cause this manga is named Naruto and its not fun atleast for me to have three Uchihas as FV..


----------



## Nic (Aug 17, 2012)

jacamo said:


> lmao listen to yourself... they would both be father-son tragedies
> 
> if Tobi = Obito's father then their situations are *very* relatable
> 
> ...



so he just learned about Nagato and his rin'negan while he was dead?


----------



## NW (Aug 17, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> *Statement 1:* WTF did you type? It made no sense. Re-phrase it.


Slow much?      Tobi.   was.   controlling.    Yagura.


> *Statement 2:* Kisame doesn't even know who the hell Obito is. So, how did he recognize Tobi when he took of his mask during their meeting? *Tobi is someone that Kisame knows and recognizes.*


 -____-


*Spoiler*: _I believe the following pages should answer your question_ 



*Kisame recognized HIM:*


*From HERE:*


*So it doesn't matter WHO Tobi is, because Kisame met him there for the first time. Honestly, I hate when people use this as an argument.*






Osaeri said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Wow. Good finds!



Dantaeres said:


> How can Obito be the one who was controlling Yagura, do I miss something here ? maybe he was controlling him after Madara died but before that he was too young, Zabuza was born during the Bloody Mist era and he must be the same age as Obito.


I'm thinking Madara switched out with Tobi. Tobi probably took over right after his battle with Minato.



Escargon said:


> Why are people trying to compare Obitos face to Tobis face?
> 
> Its Madaras face we have seen.
> 
> The last two pictures do look alike tho.


Why are you so convinced he has Madara's face? He doesn't. You should be able to tell they have different faces just by comparing them. Tobi's face is obviously the face of his true identity, so by comparing his facial features and facial structure to different tobi candidates, we could see who's more likely to be Tobi. Of course, appearance isn't all we need, but it is very helpful and is a big factor in figuring out his identity.



jacamo said:


> and i base it on the timeline,


How can you tell that Kagami is Obito's father just based on the timeline?



> the same timeline that blows the Obito argument out of the water with its inconsistencies and plotholes


You mean those "plotholes" you come up with and don't except any explanation for? You're saying there are timeline inconsistencies, but you don't even listen when people offer up possible explanations. Then you take a giant assumption with nothing to support it and say it's more plausible, when you only say it's more plausible because you deny every explanation for your "plotholes" that people come up with. What's the point of talking about this if you're not going to listen to what anyone says?

You're not debating. You're in fucking denial.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 17, 2012)

Escargon said:


> I hope that Tobi is an elder Naruto that wants to fuck up this dimension.
> 
> Why you might ask? Cause this manga is named Naruto and its not fun atleast for me to have three Uchihas as FV..




maybe Kishi did change his mind... but ever since Kabuto blackmailed Tobi with the 6th coffin, and then patronized him for being Madara... from that moment i knew the real Madara was in the 6th coffin

it could happen, but i personally dont want Tobi to have anything to do with time travel.... i just want Tobi to have his own story, his own motivations


----------



## NW (Aug 17, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> maybe Kishi did change his mind... but ever since Kabuto blackmailed Tobi with the 6th coffin, and then patronized him for being Madara... from that moment i knew the real Madara was in the 6th coffin
> 
> it could happen, but i personally dont want Tobi to have anything to do with time travel.... i just want Tobi to have his own story, his own motivations


Not sure if you're replying to me but about Kishi changing his mind, that would be wrong. Tobi's identity has been set from the stat.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> How can you tell that Kagami is Obito's father just based on the timeline?



i cant

but im not claiming its 100% proven like you are with Obito 



> You mean those "plotholes" you come up with and don't except any explanation for? You're saying there are timeline inconsistencies, but you don't even listen when people offer up possible explanations. Then you take a giant assumption with nothing to support it and say it's more plausible, when you only say it's more plausible because you deny every explanation for your "plotholes" that people come up with. What's the point of talking about this if you're not going to listen to what anyone says?
> 
> You're not debating. You're in fucking denial.



im not the only person who considers them to be plotholes... im also not the only person who considers your so-called "explanations" to be insufficient

agree to disagree... nothing more needs to be said


----------



## Escargon (Aug 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why are you so convinced he has Madara's face? He doesn't. You should be able to tell they have different faces just by comparing them. Tobi's face is obviously the face of his true identity, so by comparing his facial features and facial structure to different tobi candidates, we could see who's more likely to be Tobi. Of course, appearance isn't all we need, but it is very helpful and is a big factor in figuring out his identity.



They have the same face. Tobi got Madaras 90 years old face, so you cant really compare Tobi with Madara without adding those grannywrinkles.

Just compare young Mifune to elder Mifune.


----------



## Easley (Aug 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Not sure if you're replying to me but about Kishi changing his mind, that would be wrong. *Tobi's identity has been set from the stat.*


Tobi begging Zetsu to join Akatsuki creates some doubt. Why would the 'mastermind' be doing that? He called Tobi an idiot and then a "good kid", which is a bit disrespectful if you're talking to your boss.

Tobi's identity maybe was set from the start, but it's doubtful he was intended to be the main villain.


----------



## Talis (Aug 17, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi begging Zetsu to join Akatsuki creates some doubt. Why would the 'mastermind' be doing that? He called Tobi an idiot and then a "good kid", which is a bit disrespectful if you're talking to your boss.
> 
> Tobi's identity maybe was set from the start, but it's doubtful he was intended to be the main villain.


Makes me think more him being Obito, Kishi probably thought that Tobito probably wouldnt have that much of impact on the story but he probably realised people already discussing about his identity, so he started with the whole Madara plot and reached the plot as it is today.


----------



## NW (Aug 17, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i cant


Why make a theory without any evidence then?



> but im not claiming its 100% proven like you are with Obito








> im not the only person who considers them to be plotholes... im also not the only person who considers your so-called "explanations" to be insufficient


Yet you never explain why they're insufficient. You just ignore them.



> agree to disagree... nothing more needs to be said


That doesn't mean we should stop debating.



Escargon said:


> They have the same face. Tobi got Madaras 90 years old face, so you cant really compare Tobi with Madara without adding those grannywrinkles.


Yeah, I already removed those "grannywrinkles" and left the one under eye crease. He still doesn't look shit like Madara.



Easley said:


> Tobi begging Zetsu to join Akatsuki creates some doubt. Why would the 'mastermind' be doing that? He called Tobi an idiot and then a "good kid", which is a bit disrespectful if you're talking to your boss.
> 
> Tobi's identity maybe was set from the start, but it's doubtful he was intended to be the main villain.


We still don't have an explanation for that. But don't make a big deal out of it. Kishi is far from a sloppy writer, especially when it comes to important plot points. Tobi's identity has been set from the start. As has his position as main villain. Kishi said he'd had the ending planned even before Tobi was introduced. Changing his identity or how major his role in the story is bad storytelling.

There are already many hints at this and also things that confirm this. Remember in Part I when Itachi said that there was a third Uchiha? And who can forget Madara's statue at the VOTE?

Also, Obito, if Tobi, was first introduced in chapter 16, titled "Who are you?!" and featured a masked man(Haku). Foreshadowing?


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 17, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi begging Zetsu to join Akatsuki creates some doubt. Why would the 'mastermind' be doing that? He called Tobi an idiot and then a "good kid", which is a bit disrespectful if you're talking to your boss.
> 
> Tobi's identity maybe was set from the start, but it's doubtful he was intended to be the main villain.



This is really one of the biggest holes...

Why would Tobi beg Zetsu to be accepted in Akatsuki while there are no other witnesses? Wasn't he the mastermind?


----------



## Escargon (Aug 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Yeah, I already removed those "grannywrinkles" and left the one under eye crease. He still doesn't look shit like Madara.


Maybe cause he got short hair?

Try imaging Madara with short hair honeypie:>


----------



## Easley (Aug 17, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Makes me think more him being Obito, Kishi probably thought that Tobito probably wouldnt have that much of impact on the story but he probably realised people already discussing about his identity, so he started with the whole Madara plot and reached the plot as it is today.


It was certainly unexpected that's for sure. One minute Tobi is acting like an idiot with Deidara, and then he's talking to Pain about Sasuke, declares himself Uchiha Madara, and shows off his lovely sharingan. heh. That's a sudden change in character that may not have been the original plan. Kishi has done a decent job with Tobi but I think his Madara act went too far.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> We still don't have an explanation for that. But don't make a big deal out of it. Kishi is far from a sloppy writer, especially when it comes to important plot points. Tobi's identity has been set from the start. As has his position as main villain. Kishi said he'd had the ending planned even before Tobi was introduced. Changing his identity or how major his role in the story is is bad storytelling.
> 
> There are already many hints at this and also things that confirm this. Remember in Part I when Itachi said that there was a third Uchiha? And who can forget Madara's statue at the VOTE?
> 
> Also, Obito, if Tobi, was first introduced in chapter 16, titled "Who are you?!" and featured a masked man(Haku). Foreshadowing?


It's not a "big deal" but is a sign that maybe Tobi wasn't set in stone. You can change aspects of a character without starting from scratch. And to me, the introduction is very awkward when I consider his role now. Zetsu is supposed to have a close relationship with him, possibly reconstructed his body, but his attitude when Tobi joined is entirely inconsistent with that. 

Oh well, if Tobi is Obito, I look forward to Kishi making sense of it.



Mugivara said:


> This is really one of the biggest holes...
> 
> Why would Tobi beg Zetsu to be accepted in Akatsuki while there are no other witnesses? Wasn't he the mastermind?


Yeah, that scene casts doubt on whether Kishi intended him to be the mastermind.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 17, 2012)

Please name this thread to ''Tobito believers share your lies here''


----------



## NW (Aug 17, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Maybe cause he got short hair?
> 
> Try imaging Madara with short hair honeypie:>


I was looking at the face, not the hair. They still looked diferent.



Easley said:


> It's not a "big deal" but is a sign that maybe Tobi wasn't set in stone. You can change aspects of a character without starting from scratch. And to me, the introduction is very awkward when I consider his role now. Zetsu is supposed to have a close relationship with him, possibly reconstructed his body, but his attitude when Tobi joined is entirely inconsistent with that.
> 
> Oh well, if Tobi is Obito, I look forward to Kishi making sense of it.
> 
> Yeah, that scene casts doubt on whether Kishi intended him to be the mastermind.


One thing's for sure, his identity and villain status had been set from the start. I can see why you would have doubts, but there's no way Kishi would pull such a drastic plot change and make the idiot of Akatsuki the main villain. So, he had to have been planned from the start, which is proven by what Itachi said in Part I. I think Kishi just was focusing on silly Tobi and accidentally made his introduction incoherent with his character.



Thebaxman said:


> Please name this thread to ''Tobito believers share your lies here''


You know you love us.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You know you love us.



Good theory with so much evidence! So much evidence that you guys only fill us in with BS and not some good information. You think Tobi talking to Kakashi like that confirms it's Obito.

You guys are led in very easily, do you think Kishi would make a reveal like that where he had his readers saying ''it was confirmed'' much before the actual reveal? This would be the worst writing ever


----------



## Edward Nygma (Aug 17, 2012)




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## NW (Aug 17, 2012)

> Good theory with so much evidence! So much evidence that you guys only fill us in with BS and not some good information. You think Tobi talking to Kakashi like that confirms it's Obito.
> 
> You guys are led in very easily, do you think Kishi would make a reveal like that where he had his readers saying ''it was confirmed'' much before the actual reveal? This would be the worst writing ever


Kakashi's "You're..." was cut off by Tobi for a reason. And unless Kakashi specifically says "OBITO!" before the mask comes off then it's not bad writing. The casual fan probably is too mindfucked to make the connection.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Good theory with so much evidence! So much evidence that you guys only fill us in with BS and not some good information. You think Tobi talking to Kakashi like that confirms it's Obito.
> 
> You guys are led in very easily, do you think Kishi would make a reveal like that where he had his readers saying ''it was confirmed'' much before the actual reveal? This would be the worst writing ever



At this point if it's not Obito it's bad writing. Keep in mind that Kishi writes these intending for most to be read volume by volume, not chapter my chapter. Your argument is inconsequential because the lead ups are different.



If you want a good theory, then read that. Most provide evidence, you're just not looking for them. You're too biased from the looks of it.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why make a theory without any evidence then?



the only evidence i need is the timeline


Kagami is the perfect age to be Obito's father... Hiruzen is Kagami's age and Asuma is Obito's age (Hiruzen and Asuma are father and son)


Kagami is the prefect age to have known Madara pre-Konoha and conspired with him after VOTE... as Madara knows who Tobi is



> Yet you never explain why they're insufficient. You just ignore them.



i have explained it hundred of times, as have others


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## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

Except there's no proof Kagami is Obito's father. It would also make for a really shitty reveal. And it still doesn't explain how he got Obito's sharingan. He would have to be at the battle at the bridge.


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## Thebaxman (Aug 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Kakashi's "You're..." was cut off by Tobi for a reason. And unless *Kakashi specifically says "OBITO!"* before the mask comes off then it's not bad writing. The casual fan probably is too mindfucked to make the connection.



We don't know what was coming after ''You're...''

We don't know who is under the mask. Even if Kakashi ends up saying ''Obito'' that won't make Tobi Obito.

What if Kakashi ends up saying ''Obito'' and it's not him? Is it bad writing because Kakashi was wrong?


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## jacamo (Aug 17, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Except there's no proof Kagami is Obito's father. It would also make for a really shitty reveal. And it still doesn't explain how he got Obito's sharingan. He would have to be at the battle at the bridge.



none of the theories have "proof" - just circumstantial evidence and thematic parallels... and i would quite like the reveal, not shitty at all if you ask me

it would *mirror* the father-son tragedy Kakashi experienced.... akin to the thematic parallels Obito fans constantly point to

you have to admit *Kannabi* and *Kagami* sound very similar


----------



## Komoyaru (Aug 17, 2012)

Just face it guys, Tobi is having an identity crisis.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

It wouldn't mirror anything. Obito had no issues with his father. There's nothing like that hinted. At all. Nothing even hinted at Kagami being Obito's father. There isn't a shred of evidence anywhere that even leads to Tobi being Kagami, just fan theories. Izuna has more more weight as a theory than Kagami, and that's practically false.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 17, 2012)

Awesome said:


> *It wouldn't mirror anything. Obito had no issues with his father.* There's nothing like that hinted. At all. Nothing even hinted at Kagami being Obito's father. There isn't a shred of evidence anywhere that even leads to Tobi being Kagami, just fan theories. Izuna has more more weight as a theory than Kagami, and that's practically false.



you dont know that yet


----------



## NW (Aug 17, 2012)

jacamo said:


> the only evidence i need is the timeline
> 
> 
> Kagami is the perfect age to be Obito's father... Hiruzen is Kagami's age and Asuma is Obito's age (Hiruzen and Asuma are father and son)


Well, it's not impossible but there's still nothing to suggest Kagami is Obito's father.



> Kagami is the prefect age to have known Madara pre-Konoha and conspired with him after VOTE... as Madara knows who Tobi is


But why would Madara have conspired with Kagami. I guess he may have been Madara's son and wanted to be Hokage to give the Uchiha more power, and that's why you can see his face looking sad when Hiruzen is chosen as Hokage, but that's just fanfiction, and I still hate the theory.





> i have explained it hundred of times, as have others


"Your "explanations" weren't sufficient enough." - jacamo

:ho



Thebaxman said:


> We don't know what was coming after ''You're...''


So you think he suspected Tobi of being Kurenai? Or was he going to say "You're... a thief!" Tobi cut him off to prevent him from spilling the beans.

There's also the fact that Guy said "Kakashi... is he..."



> We don't know who is under the mask.


Obito, of course.


> Even if Kakashi ends up saying ''Obito'' that won't make Tobi Obito.


Obviously. I'm saying that if he in fact DID say Obito before the big reveal, then that would most likely be a red herring and greatly decrease Obito's chances of being Tobi. But he didn't say Obito, now did he?



> What if Kakashi ends up saying ''Obito'' and it's not him? Is it bad writing because Kakashi was wrong?


Of course not.



jacamo said:


> none of the theories have "proof" - just circumstantial evidence and thematic parallels... and i would quite like the reveal, not shitty at all if you ask me


But Kagami's not connected to the story at all. Firstly, we don't know if he's Obito's father and even if he was, he still wouldn't be as connected to Kakashi as Obito would. He also wouldn't parallel Naruto. I just need you to answer one thing: Why is Rin's death still unexplained?

Is Kagami pissed cuz the girl his son died for died too and it was because of Kakashi. I suppose you could say the source of his anger towards Kakashi is because he feels it's the reason Obito died and he thinks Kakashi stole his eye instead of being given to it, and letting Rin die put his son's death in vain, so he wants revenge on the shinobi world? But then why would he have been conspiring with Madara for so long if he wasn't evil until around Obito's and Rin's deaths? See, even the fanfiction makes no sense. >__>



> it would *mirror* the father-son tragedy Kakashi experienced.... akin to the thematic parallels Obito fans constantly point to


One parallel compared to over 9000?



> you have to admit *Kannabi* and *Kagami* sound very similar


Kagami means "mirror" while Kannabi Bridge means "Bridge where Gods don't help".


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## Combine (Aug 17, 2012)

I don't even know why Kagami is always brought up as some sort of legitimate option considering he was a random Uchiha who only had screen time in a few panels of a Danzo flashback.


First Tsurugi said:


> Those were Madara's deeds, not Tobi's.
> 
> He straight up tells you, "I, Madara Uchiha, gave Nagato his Rinnegan, and had Yahiko create Akatsuki."
> 
> Since we know Tobi is not Madara, it can be assumed that the true Madara Uchiha was the one responsible.


How could the real Madara, who himself stated 

_"I awakened these eyes (Rinnegan) *shortly before my death*"_ 

have been alive years later to inspire Yahiko and train Nagato (someone had to teach him to summon Gedo Mazo) and being consistent with the fact that those events transpired before Obito's death?

Again, if Nagato's Rinnegan is indeed Madara's.

Also your scentence is incorrect, he never stated "I, Uchiha Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan, etc."

Tobi's words were "I was the one who spurred Yahiko to create Akatsuki....and......I was the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan".


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## ceralux (Aug 17, 2012)

I haven't really been keeping up with these debates and I'm sure Tobito theorists have already "debunked" this plot-hole, but I want to hear it for myself.

Since Edo Madara has the Rinnegan isn't it safe to assume that he died with his eyes intact? Being said, who gave the Nagato the Rinnegan? Obito is much younger than Nagato so he's out of the question..

I'll also like to add in that Kabuto already knew that Tobi wasn't the real Madara by the time Tobi had said that Nagato's Rinnegan was actually HIS to begin with. Why would Tobi lie about something like that when Kabuto himself already knew that Tobi wasn't Madara.


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## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

A common theory is that Madara is actually the father to Nagato. Nagato unlocked his Rinnegan and can willingly turn it off and on, and common trait to those who actually own the eye. Those who don't own the eye can't turn it off (Kakashi, Danzou, etc) That would give Nagato Uchiha and Senju DNA.

Nagato was born with it. There's really no way around that.


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## Combine (Aug 17, 2012)

> Nagato unlocked his Rinnegan and can willingly turn it off and on


Huh? When has Nagato ever been able to turn his off. I've never seen him with normal non-rippled eyes.


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## ShadeX23 (Aug 17, 2012)

ceralux said:


> I haven't really been keeping up with these debates and I'm sure Tobito theorists have already "debunked" this plot-hole, but I want to hear it for myself.
> 
> Since Edo Madara has the Rinnegan isn't it safe to assume that he died with his eyes intact? Being said, who gave the Nagato the Rinnegan? Obito is much younger than Nagato so he's out of the question..
> 
> I'll also like to add in that Kabuto already knew that Tobi wasn't the real Madara by the time Tobi had said that Nagato's Rinnegan was actually HIS to begin with. Why would Tobi lie about something like that when Kabuto himself already knew that Tobi wasn't Madara.



I can't say for sure, but it's because he's not just Obito. That's what people seem to forget. It's not like Obito just crawled out from under the rock and decided to be a power-crazed megalomaniac who wanted to control the world. He knows Zetsu, and Madara as confirmed by Kishimoto, and they likely had a roll in rebuilding him, but not just as Obito, but as Madara himself. He intimately knows Madara's history, has similar chakra, and even Kisame recognized him once he took off the mask. And we all know Zetsu's powers: the White half replicates one's physical anatomy down to the chakra, whereas Black Zetsu can project all information that he knows. 

Plus, think back to how adamantly Tobi claimed that he was Madara, and how when he was revealed as a fraud, he didn't admit his identity outright; he just said he's no one. He's lost himself, as Obito is slowly fading away as Madara takes over. As for why he'd claim ownership over the Rinnegan? If he is a Madara clone, and if the eyes were Madara's and he gave them to Nagato, than as "Madara" he would call them his to begin with, as he is the continuation of Madara's legacy and thus claims ownership over what was once Madara's. 

Of course, this is all a big stretch, as when I stated in my overly-long theory, which I will admit has a lot of guesswork in it, but it would make sense in the long-run. The only other possibility, again, is that they're building up his identity as Obito, only to have it be someone else to double the shock. Perhaps someone close to Obito who is angered over his death, at Kakashi and the world itself. I dunno, we'll hopefully find out soon...


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## jacamo (Aug 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Well, it's not impossible but there's still nothing to suggest Kagami is Obito's father.
> 
> But why would Madara have conspired with Kagami. I guess he may have been Madara's son and wanted to be Hokage to give the Uchiha more power, and that's why you can see his face looking sad when Hiruzen is chosen as Hokage, but that's just fanfiction, and I still hate the theory.



you keep saying Kagami is not connected to the plot but thats false -- he is connected to Tobirama, Hiruzen, Danzo, Torifu, the Elders... Kagami was alive pre-Konoha AND during the founding of Konoha, his age also makes it very possible that Kagami knew Madara personally

i dont know what Kagami's motivations would be, it could literally be a million different things... all im saying is the timeline makes it possible



Awesome said:


> A common theory is that Madara is actually the father to Nagato. Nagato unlocked his Rinnegan and can willingly turn it off and on, and common trait to those who actually own the eye. Those who don't own the eye can't turn it off (Kakashi, Danzou, etc) That would give Nagato Uchiha and Senju DNA.
> 
> Nagato was born with it. There's really no way around that.



Nagato was not born with it... it has *never* been shown that Nagato can willingly turn his Rinnegan on and off... it was probably implanted


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## HiramsThoughts (Aug 17, 2012)

People should learn the difference, a theory is based on evidence, most of people theories are freaking fan-fiction.


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## Raventhal (Aug 17, 2012)

Combine said:


> Huh? When has Nagato ever been able to turn his off. I've never seen him with normal non-rippled eyes.



We don't know how the SoSP, Madara or Nagato got their eyes.  

SoSP likely was either born with it or it was a trait being the Juubi jin which to me is more like.  Since we know the Juubi was some kind of creator.  It's heavily implied that Senju body yang + Uchiha doujutsu yin = yin yang Doujutsu and body energy.  

Madara is a decendant of the SoSP's elder son who was granted doujutsu blah blah blah.  His awakening likely has to do with Senju DNA and his own eyes.  There is the possiblity that you must kill yourself or something extreme to awaken the Rinnegan in a Uchiha considering how they do other things.

Nagato is a decendant of the SoSP's younger son.  The younger son was granted the "body" of the SoSP.  Nagato has a panel of him awakening his eye that's similar an Uchiha awakening.  But people discard it because Tobi said he gave him his eyes. 

Nagato could have been given his eyes but we really don't know if it's what Tobi said or just base Uchiha eyes to Madara's old MS eyes.  He could also be Madara's son since natural Senju/Uzumaki + Uchiha seems like a logical thing to try and it hasn't been done.


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## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

If he was given a working Rinnegan it would be permanently on, proving that it wasn't physically transplanted.

If Nagato was giving a working Rinnegan, it would constantly be on. No, he was given eyes with the potential to be Rinnegan, proving that it wasn't transplanted. He unlocked the Rinnegan himself with eyes that were given by birth. If he had them transplanted, he would have had to turn them off at some point and then turn them back on, a feature that he was born with them. It contradicts itself, proving it false.

And jacamo, no one is saying it isn't possible. It is possible. Just like it is possible for Tobi to be some random person that has no relevance to the story. It is possible, but not *probable.*


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## jacamo (Aug 17, 2012)

Nagato's Rinnegan *is permanently on*... what are you talking about?

Nagato has never been shown with his Rinnegan eyes inactive

this means they were implanted


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## Menacing Eyes (Aug 17, 2012)

Awesome said:


> No, he was given eyes with the potential to be Rinnegan, proving that it wasn't transplanted. He unlocked the Rinnegan himself with eyes that were given by birth. If he had them transplanted, he would have had to turn them off at some point and then turn them back on, a feature that he was born with them. It contradicts itself, proving it false.


If those are Nagato's natural eyes then why did Tobi have to get them back? Where is Madara's Rinnegan then? Why would Tobi go through the trouble of getting Rinnegan from Nagato if Madara's were still somewhere? He decided to move the plan along himself without Madara so it's not like Madara's corpse would need them.

Do you really think that Tobi and Madara are the kind of people to let a perfectly good Rinnegan rot or waste away, especially if said eyes are vital to controlling the Gedo Mazo?


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## Raventhal (Aug 17, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Nagato's Rinnegan *is permanently on*... what are you talking about?
> 
> Nagato has never been shown with his Rinnegan eyes inactive
> 
> this means they were implanted



Actually we don't know.  His eyes were purposely covered before he "awakened" it.  You would assume that Nagato would know if his eyes were rinnegan before hand.  Maybe he was genjutsu'd into think they were never there or maybe he did awaken them.  We won't know until the timeline stuff is revealed if ever.  

Madara obviously can turn his on and off because he's a haxed character with Senju DNA and sharingans.  He's not a pure RS because he only has DNA and not the body.  

If Nagato was just given base Uchiha eyes and awakened them there is the possiblity that the effect is those are his naturally on because has natural younger son body and Uchiha eyes.


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## Raventhal (Aug 17, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> If those are Nagato's natural eyes then why did Tobi have to get them back? Where is Madara's Rinnegan then? Why would Tobi go through the trouble of getting Rinnegan from Nagato if Madara's were still somewhere? He decided to move the plan along himself without Madara so it's not like Madara's corpse would need them.
> 
> Do you really think that Tobi and Madara are the kind of people to let a perfectly good Rinnegan rot or waste away, especially if said eyes are vital to controlling the Gedo Mazo?



You also have to remember that he was not susposed to be brought back with EDO. It's possible that if your brought back by the Rinnegan and you will be brought back as how your body is. Meaning if the looted Madara's eyes and he was brought back he would be eyeless.


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## jacamo (Aug 17, 2012)

you dont have a panel of Nagato with his Rinnegan turned off

end of discussion


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## Menacing Eyes (Aug 17, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> You also have to remember that he was not susposed to be brought back with EDO. It's possible that if your brought back by the Rinnegan and you will be brought back as how your body is. Meaning if the looted Madara's eyes and he was brought back he would be eyeless.



That's what I just said. Tobi decided that he wasn't going to revive Madara and go through with the plan on his own anyways, so if he had Madara's Rinnegan somewhere then why didn't he use it instead of going after Nagato's?


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## SacredX (Aug 17, 2012)

I already posted this somewhere else, but I'll put it here too.  Basically to anyone who uses Tobi's "wrinkles" as any form of argument:

Naruto 397 - Read Naruto Chapter 397 Online - Page 3
Naruto 510 - Read Naruto Chapter 510 Online - Page 8
Naruto 510 - Read Naruto Chapter 510 Online - Page 10
Naruto 510 - Read Naruto Chapter 510 Online - Page 12
Naruto 510 - Read Naruto Chapter 510 Online - Page 13

The only side we've seen with wrinkles is the side that was supposedly crushed.  This also includes when he showed his face to Sasuke.  Not only that, but you can see in the link that the left side of his face is shadowed.  The reason I point this out is because those "wrinkles" could just be a result of the crushed side opposed to old age.  

In the first link, look how low the "wrinkles" go.  It seems a little strange, doesn't it?  I really don't think it has anything to do with old age.  Now that I think about it, it's almost eccentric how the left side of his face is always shadowed out like that (in the other links).


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## Shakar (Aug 17, 2012)

Good to see someone highlighting the "wrinkles" issue. I personally think they look nothing like real wrinkles.

The reason the left side is always shadowed is because it's smooth and young, like a the face of a barely 30 years old person () would be. Kishi showed us the whole right side except the mouth at this point, the sole glimpse of the left side we got is this. No markings there.


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## NW (Aug 17, 2012)

Awesome said:


> A common theory is that Madara is actually the father to Nagato. Nagato unlocked his Rinnegan and can willingly turn it off and on, and common trait to those who actually own the eye. Those who don't own the eye can't turn it off (Kakashi, Danzou, etc) That would give Nagato Uchiha and Senju DNA.
> 
> Nagato was born with it. There's really no way around that.


Could someone show me the chapter and page where Nagato unlocks the Rinnegan? I know he did but I'd like to examine the panels more.



jacamo said:


> he is connected to Tobirama, Hiruzen, Danzo, Torifu, the Elders... Kagami was alive pre-Konoha AND during the founding of Konoha


Still not that connected to the main plot or any of the main characters.



> he is connected to Tobirama, Hiruzen, Danzo, Torifu, the Elders... Kagami was alive pre-Konoha AND during the founding of Konoha, his anow what Kagami's motivations would be, it could literally be a million different things... all im saying is the timeline makes it possible





> *"Plothole": U-Turn Personality*
> Kagami was allied with Tobirama's squad. There's no way someone loyal like him would betray Konoha.








Raventhal said:


> We don't know how the SoSP, Madara or Nagato got their eyes.
> 
> SoSP likely was either born with it or it was a trait being the Juubi jin which to me is more like.  Since we know the Juubi was some kind of creator.  It's heavily implied that Senju body yang + Uchiha doujutsu yin = yin yang Doujutsu and body energy.
> 
> ...






jacamo said:


> you dont have a panel of Nagato with his Rinnegan turned off
> 
> end of discussion


You don't have a panel showing that Kagami is Obito's father. End of discusion.



SacredX said:


> I already posted this somewhere else, but I'll put it here too.  Basically to anyone who uses Tobi's "wrinkles" as any form of argument:
> 
> Naruto 397 - Read Naruto Chapter 397 Online - Page 3
> Naruto 510 - Read Naruto Chapter 510 Online - Page 8
> ...


Finally, someone sees the difference between those markings and wrinkles.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 17, 2012)

Good video after all


*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]22SutP1srbE[/YOUTUBE]




And still we have timeline and self Uchiha destruction inexplicableness for tobito theories...


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## Escargon (Aug 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I was looking at the face, not the hair. They still looked diferent.





Theres already a page of c510 of Tobi and Madaras face being compared when he says "I got both Madaras and Hashiramas power" or some crazy shit like that. ^^


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## blackhawkdown (Aug 17, 2012)

This is how tobi is

Here you go/


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Under the mask its another mask so we need to wait 500 more episodes to see next mask go off.


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## Obito (Aug 17, 2012)

*I'm starting to believe more that Kagami = Tobi.*

There's a lot of evidence

randomly saw this video on YouTube when I was looking for Tobi scenes

I haven't read any chapters with Kagami in it, but from the slight bit of research I've done... seems interesting. Especially if Kagami is Obito's father.

Here you go/

Meh. .


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## ch1p (Aug 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Could someone show me the chapter and page where Nagato unlocks the Rinnegan? I know he did but I'd like to examine the panels more.



Nagato "awakens" the Rinnegan when the Leaf ninjas kill his parents.

Link removed

It shows again, when he kills the guys that attack Yahiko and Konan.

Link removed

Nagato never shows his normal eyes. It is bizarre and the conclusions that can be drawn from it are interesting.



Shakar said:


> Good to see someone highlighting the "wrinkles" issue. I personally think they look nothing like real wrinkles.
> 
> The reason the left side is always shadowed is because it's smooth and young, like a the face of a barely 30 years old person () would be. Kishi showed us the whole right side except the mouth at this point, the sole glimpse of the left side we got is this. No markings there.



The problem with the sole glimpse of his left side is that it's prone to be taken with a grain of salt, because lol Kishi / assistants forgot. There has been one single moment in the manga where Tobi's eye was shown to be normal Sharingan while he phases. That is most likely an error, due to the mystery surrounding that eye when Tobi phases any other time. The fact that it has been shadowed several times is what should be taken into consideration more I think.


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## Hossaim (Aug 17, 2012)

Obito said:


> There's a lot of evidence
> 
> randomly saw this video on YouTube when I was looking for Tobi scenes
> 
> ...


Long haired Tobi and Short haired Tobi are the same person. 

Here is Kisame identifying Short haired tobi as long haired tobi:
this


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

But that was the only glimpse of his left side and Kishi has been really careful about showing parts of Tobi's face. I doubt something like that would be an error. What you mentioned was an error of something that is done repeatedly. Done enough times, everyone makes an error. Remember Pein's leaf headband? 

But I agree, the fact that it's never actually been shown aside from that one little section suggests that Kishi is hiding something about that side of the face.


----------



## jeffmusta (Aug 17, 2012)

Obito said:


> There's a lot of evidence
> 
> randomly saw this video on YouTube when I was looking for Tobi scenes
> 
> ...


Certainly a possibility at this point - him or Izuna are the biggest possibilities to me.  As for people who argue they aren't big enough characters in the story, it doesn't really matter as Kishimoto will end up spending many chapters explaining right after the reveal.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Kakashi's "You're..." was cut off by Tobi for a reason.



Kakashi never said "You're...", He said "You..." and then was interrupted by Tobi.

As shown here: this
Bottom left panel.

Stop changing the character's dialogue to fit your own liking and to prove your theory right.



> There's also the fact that Guy said "Kakashi... is he..."



Again, changing the character's dialogue. Gai clearly said "Kakashi. .. He...".

As shown here: this
First panel from the bottom.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 17, 2012)

Obito said:


> There's a lot of evidence
> 
> randomly saw this video on YouTube when I was looking for Tobi scenes
> 
> ...


+reps for coming to the good side and being a Kagami theory supporter.


----------



## Raiden (Aug 17, 2012)

Obito said:


> There's a lot of evidence
> 
> randomly saw this video on YouTube when I was looking for Tobi scenes
> 
> ...


I was completely resigned towards the theory (after last week) until I watched that video.

Pretty epic IMO:


*Spoiler*: __ 





Not sure if anyone here is going to be convinced by editing a fanart though. It would make far more sense if Kishimoto had shown us a face. There's also a bit of a problem with trying to "fit" the image of the mask on characters themselves...it really depends on the image of the mask you're using. 







Just a note about the evidence presented in the video..no Uchiha were present at the time of the Kyuubi attack. Interesting that no one brought this up.

EDIT: I love how Obito made this thread .


----------



## Obito (Aug 17, 2012)

Raiden said:


> I was completely resigned towards the theory (after last week) until I watched that video.
> 
> Pretty epic IMO:
> 
> ...



I missed many pieces of the video, I just skipped through and read his Description in the text. 

So I missed some pieces.


----------



## Raiden (Aug 17, 2012)

Oh nothing I said refutes anything in the video itself though. It's still a good point.


----------



## Obito (Aug 17, 2012)

Raiden said:


> Oh nothing I said refutes anything in the video itself though. It's still a good point.



Absolutely!

+ Reps


----------



## ShadeX23 (Aug 17, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> You also have to remember that he was not susposed to be brought back with EDO. It's possible that if your brought back by the Rinnegan and you will be brought back as how your body is. Meaning if the looted Madara's eyes and he was brought back he would be eyeless.



Actually, Kabuto said that he revived Madara "in his prime," rather than how he was when he died. It's likely to assume that his edo tensai body, especially with the Hashirama face on it, and considering how he's pretty much identical in physical age to when he fought Hashirama, is not the same as the body he died in. 

Still, this doesn't confirm that he gave his own eyes to Nagato, they could very well be natural. But given how they are extremely rare and were considered to be nothing but a myth, and given the recent revelation they that are actually the 4th stage of the Sharingan, I think it's very likely that they are indeed Madara's eyes. Plus, Madara planned for Nagato to revive him, and that right there seems telling that Nagato at least possessing the Rinnegan was a part of his plan.


----------



## Hossaim (Aug 17, 2012)

Obito said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> + Reps



>blatantly ignores my proof


----------



## ch1p (Aug 17, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Remember Pein's leaf headband?



Yes. 



> But I agree, the fact that it's never actually been shown aside from that one little section suggests that Kishi is hiding something about that side of the face.



Yes. This is what I meant.


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 17, 2012)

Obito said:


> There's a lot of evidence
> 
> randomly saw this video on YouTube when I was looking for Tobi scenes
> 
> ...


that video is pretty worthless (except for the music)

however tobi being kagami would be the least plothole ridden solution


----------



## Jeαnne (Aug 17, 2012)

Obito said:


> There's a lot of evidence
> 
> randomly saw this video on YouTube when I was looking for Tobi scenes
> 
> ...


gotta watch it


----------



## Talis (Aug 17, 2012)

Obito said:


> There's a lot of evidence
> 
> randomly saw this video on YouTube when I was looking for Tobi scenes
> 
> ...


Epic, so just because he didnt show up at Kyuubi night along with every single Uchiha hes Tobi? 
And why removing a wrinkles out of a fanfic character instead the real one? 
Remove the wrinkles of the real Tobi and you get an Obito face, mix the Tobi word and you get Obito, makes 1000x more sense compared to Tobirama's.
And ''T*obiTo*bi'' means even ''scattered here and there'' just as Tobi/to's body and his Sharingan.


----------



## Jeαnne (Aug 17, 2012)

well, if tobi is kagami, at least it would give more depth to the whole hiruzen-danzou story, and more insight on tobirama...


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 17, 2012)

Obito said:


> There's a lot of evidence
> 
> randomly saw this video on YouTube when I was looking for Tobi scenes
> 
> ...


there's also this



danzo clearly doesn't trust kagami, he knows he's plotting something


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 17, 2012)

Obito is is pretty much confirmed to be tobi


----------



## Easley (Aug 17, 2012)

SacredX said:


> I already posted this somewhere else, but I'll put it here too.  Basically to anyone who uses Tobi's "wrinkles" as any form of argument:
> 
> Naruto 397 - Read Naruto Chapter 397 Online - Page 3
> Naruto 510 - Read Naruto Chapter 510 Online - Page 8
> ...


Good post, but I still think they're wrinkles - only the first link is possible evidence to the contrary. 

The art quality in chapter 396/397 was inconsistent at best, the 'lines' actually looked different on separate panels. Some are missing or drawn at other angles. 

Naruto 510 - Read Naruto Chapter 510 Online - Page 13
Naruto 510 - Read Naruto Chapter 510 Online - Page 13

They're too reminiscent of Mifune's wrinkles for me to ignore. 

However, I do believe he's hiding something on the left side of his face. Hashirama? If Tobi is like Madara and Danzo then Hashi will pop up somewhere.


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 17, 2012)

obito eye is confirmed to be tobi's

unless some spoiler came out already


----------



## Obito (Aug 17, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Long haired Tobi and Short haired Tobi are the same person.
> 
> Here is Kisame identifying Short haired tobi as long haired tobi:
> Naruto 510 - Read Naruto Chapter 510 Online - Page 13



How is this relevant?...


----------



## jeffmusta (Aug 17, 2012)

Obito said:


> There's a lot of evidence
> 
> randomly saw this video on YouTube when I was looking for Tobi scenes
> 
> ...


could easily make Kagami more interesting if he is directly related to certain other Uchiha's in the story...


----------



## Haruhifan21 (Aug 17, 2012)

Obito said:


> There's a lot of evidence
> 
> randomly saw this video on YouTube when I was looking for Tobi scenes
> 
> ...


I like the possibility of Kagami being Obito's father, and thus becoming Tobi.

It makes sense that Kagami's Sharingan is S/T based, and Obito, who's his son, also has S/T based Sharingan (with the same dimension as Kagami's Sharingan).

When Obito died, Kagami went batshit and awoke the MS, and called Kyuubi into Konoha. He also made a name which similar to his son's name "Obito" and began his "Tobi" identity. He then found out about Madara's Moon Eye Plan and then decided to follow it to achieve peace. He also developed a grudge against Kakashi, and that's why he spoke to Kakashi in a grudgeful manner.

Tobi's wrinkles does seem like he's at around Hiruzen/Danzou's age. By the way he was talking, it's likely that he also knew the Konoha advisors quite well.

Arghhhh, as I was writing this, I forgot about Tobi and the 4th Mizukage. Hmmmm.... I guess it fits if the Bloody Mist period actually began before the 4th Mizukage began to be manipulated by Tobi.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 17, 2012)

Obito said:


> There's a lot of evidence
> 
> randomly saw this video on YouTube when I was looking for Tobi scenes
> 
> ...


Kagami has to much swag to be Tobi.


----------



## Jeαnne (Aug 17, 2012)

we have yet to know why danzou had that obsession with and against uchihas too, perhaps kagami is the answer


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 17, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> Long haired Tobi and Short haired Tobi are the same person.
> 
> Here is Kisame identifying Short haired tobi as long haired tobi:
> grudgeful manner



but none of them is real madara that died way before kisame met tobi

probably tobi just deceived kisame in believing he's madara


----------



## Escargon (Aug 17, 2012)

Remember when Tobi made a "clone" of Hashirama with his tissue? He said "it doesnt have a mind on its own."

Why did he say it? And why to Kabuto? Is Tobi the same thing made of Madara?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 17, 2012)

Easley said:


> However, I do believe he's hiding something on the left side of his face. Hashirama? If Tobi is like Madara and Danzo then Hashi will pop up somewhere.



His entire body is Hashirama.



Escargon said:


> Nvm these Obito theorists. (Im not saying that Tobi is not Obito, in this case im listening to loool3 has to say, atleast he usually gets it right sometimes so i keep his theory in my mind) They think that Tobi looks more like Obito than an aged Madara, atleast some of them.
> 
> Yes, Tobis wrinkles are identical to Mifunes, and a proof, well kinda, is that rubberguy got the exact same wrinkle as Tobi. So Tobi is old, atleast on that part of the face. Kishi is hiding the other part, you can clearly see it in chapter 510, i mean every single angle shadows his face for a reason.
> 
> ...



What are you going to do if Tobi's unmasked and it's just Obito's face?

Are you going to admit you were mistaken, or are you going to claim that Kishi drew things wrong?


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

Yet what is the point of hiding the left side of his face in all of the partial reveals unless there is something to hide there. There's something on that side that will reveal who it is, and there certainly are no wrinkles on that side. 

grudgeful manner

Something I found interesting. He called Nagato the third Rikudou. The first was RS, the second was Madara, but if Tobi truly had the Rinnegan, then he would be the third and Nagato would have been the third. 

Tobi never had his own set. He never refers to himself as the "Fourth Rikudou." If Nagato's eyes were truly transplanted, Tobi would consider himself the fourth Rikudou.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 17, 2012)

Awesome said:


> *Tobi never had his own set. He never refers to himself as the "Fourth Rikudou." If Nagato's eyes were truly transplanted, Tobi would consider himself the fourth Rikudou.*



Unless you are Kishimoto you cannot tell us what Tobi would say, because you wouldn't know. Please stop with the bullshit


----------



## Easley (Aug 17, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> His entire body is Hashirama.


Well, I meant Hashirama's 'face' specifically. There's something unusual about the left side. We've never had a clear shot - its blacked out or from an angle.


----------



## Jeαnne (Aug 17, 2012)

its pretty close now guys...or not


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Unless you are Kishimoto you cannot tell us what Tobi would say, because you wouldn't know. Please stop with the bullshit



Tobi clearly calls Nagato the third Rikudou, and we know Madara is the second. Where is Tobi in all of this?

That was either Madara's set of eyes or Nagato's own set. Tobi never owned Rinnegan.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

If I had a raw I could clear up that translation really fucking fast.

Japanese raw, not chinese.


----------



## Hexa (Aug 17, 2012)

Awesome said:


> If I had a raw I could clear up that translation really fucking fast.
> 
> Japanese raw, not chinese.


OK
Geg in the translation thread covered it, since Ohana's script matches for that line:





Geg said:


> According to ohana's script he says "Omae wa..." which is vague enough for either translation to technically be correct, though if I were translating it I'd go with "you're"
> 
> The main thing to take from it is that Kakashi realizes something about Tobi.


Same story for Guy's statement (Kakashi... yatsu wa...).


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 17, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i cant
> 
> but im not claiming its 100% proven like you are with Obito



wtf are you talking about, Inever say 100%, IM TH EONE WHO SAYS ITS POSSIBLE. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SAYS 100% IMPOSSIBLE XD



jacamo said:


> im not the only person who considers them to be plotholes... im also not the only person who considers your so-called "explanations" to be insufficient
> 
> agree to disagree... nothing more needs to be said



So 'sufficient' evidence is 'fits in ''timeline'' with 2 lines' MUST BE OBITOS DAD but insufficient evidence is a shit ton of hints and foreshadowing and the presence of a special sharingan eye that BELONGED to the character, CANT BE HIM IMPOSSIBLE. 
If you can give your speculation on a guy who has had 2 lines and say its most likely OVER a character who had a central role in a characters life and had a huge presence for 6 chapters in the manga you say is impossible when there are explanations. 
You CANT give explanations for your guy based on nothing and then throw out the other guy when they gave you possibilities...............



jacamo said:


> the only evidence i need is the timeline
> 
> 
> Kagami is the perfect age to be Obito's father... Hiruzen is Kagami's age and Asuma is Obito's age (Hiruzen and Asuma are father and son)
> ...




I'm not saying its impossible for Kagami to be Tobi, but you are not basing it on much of anything. Obito is based on FAR MORE evidence. more plausible

And I've explained it a hundred times why your plot holes are actually plot holes, given plausibilities, but NOOOOOOO you go
"ZOMG DUDE, I'm giving you EVIDENCE, its IMPOSSIBLE, It doesn't agree with me so I don't think you can every be right in a million years" to the educated poster from the uneducated one who can't open their mind.

edit: Thx Hexa, so Kakashi realized something, and since it was already apparent it was Obito's eye, Kakashi must have realized the identity and thus the broken promises standing by grave life of regret comments by Tobi really strike home.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

Guy says "yatsu wa" which can be translated into "He is"

Kakashi says "omae wa" which, used in this context, means "You are". In most conversations when they use a pronoun and then leave off with wa, it typically means "pronoun + to be". "He is..." and "You are" are correct.

Gai's statement could either be "Is he...?" or "He is..."


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 17, 2012)

I hope people realize Tobi at the very least use Obito's body (or parts). Even though a ninja can change appearance etc, he looks very much like Obito for what we have seen. No reason to deny it. May be a trick from Kishi, but I doubt it.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

I should also note that Gai says "yatsu wa" instead of "aitsu wa", implying familiarity and focusing less on the fact that he's the opponent.

The scene is meant to imply familiarity.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 17, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Tobi clearly calls Nagato the third Rikudou, and we know Madara is the second. Where is Tobi in all of this?
> 
> That was either Madara's set of eyes or Nagato's own set. Tobi never owned Rinnegan.



This does not even disprove what I said.

When you try to prove someone wrong, you explain how they're wrong. 
In this case you can't prove me wrong because you have no proof from the manga.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

But Tobi named them himself. If he did have the Rinnegan before Nagato then he would be the 3rd Rikudou. Nagato would be the fourth.

Tobi could have gotten the Rinnegan from Madara and gave them to Nagato, but Tobi himself never had his own set. He never used them before Nagato.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 17, 2012)

Awesome said:


> But Tobi named them himself. If he did have the Rinnegan before Nagato then he would be the 3rd Rikudou. Nagato would be the fourth.
> 
> Tobi could have gotten the Rinnegan from Madara and gave them to Nagato, but Tobi himself never had his own set. He never used them before Nagato.



Post link to panel or chapter where it confirms that Tobi never used them please


----------



## NW (Aug 17, 2012)

Thebaxman said:
			
		

> Post link to panel or chapter where it confirms that Tobi never used them please


Re-read Tobi's fight with Konan(chapters 510-511).


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

Sigh

If we are assuming Nagato's eyes are transplants and Tobi still calls him the third Rikudou, and the second Rikudou is Madara, Tobi never used them before Nagato. Do I have to keep spelling this out?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 17, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Post link to panel or chapter where it confirms that Tobi never used them please



BECAUSE IF YOU USE THE RINNEGAN YOU ARE A RIKUDOU. 
IF YOU DONT YOU ARE NOT A RIKUDOU.

Thusssssssss,

Sage of 6 paths=1st Rikudou
Madara=2nd Rikudou
Nagato=3rdRikudou
Tobi=4th Recent Rikudou

If Tobi was older than Nagato and had used the eyes, Nagato would be the 4th Rikudou and Tobi the 3rd Rikudou

common sense, not everything needs to be spelled out for you


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

Pretty much what Mist said. Going with Tobi's line of thinking, he never used the Rinnegan before Nagato.


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 17, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> BECAUSE IF YOU USE THE RINNEGAN YOU ARE A RIKUDOU.
> IF YOU DONT YOU ARE NOT A RIKUDOU.
> 
> Thusssssssss,
> ...



Funny how I asked for a panel or a chapter but I got more *ASSUMPTIONS
*

If you are so sure of it, why can't you provide me with any proof? 

You have no *PROOF* so you aren't *correct*.

Thusssssssss,

We don't know if Tobi was lying or not. 

It's this simple:

If it is not *confirmed* in the manga, don't act like it is


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 17, 2012)

yup guys, logic of a 5 year old right there. If it's not stated, its just an assumption.

Looks at  a piece of paper with math on it 4 X 5 to equal 20. BUT 20 divided by 5 to equal 4 is an assumption!!!!!! Its not on the piece of paper, who cares if I know that all 3 digits are used in multiply and divide, jsut an assumption, its not confirmed XD


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

Thebaxman's logic is giving me cancer


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 17, 2012)

That guy who has AIDS,
Don't worry he never had HIV


----------



## NW (Aug 17, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Funny how I asked for a panel or a chapter but I got more *ASSUMPTIONS
> *
> 
> If you are so sure of it, why can't you provide me with any proof?
> ...


            -____- ........

How is that an assumption? He took what he knows from the manga and came to a conclusion with it.


----------



## Talis (Aug 17, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Funny how I asked for a panel or a chapter but I got more *ASSUMPTIONS
> *
> 
> If you are so sure of it, why can't you provide me with any proof?
> ...


Hey, Izuna is confirmed dead in the manga and database book, so forget that theory, its *confirmed.*


----------



## ceralux (Aug 17, 2012)

Awesome said:


> *A common theory* is that Madara is actually the father to Nagato. Nagato unlocked his Rinnegan and can willingly turn it off and on, and common trait to those who actually own the eye. Those who don't own the eye can't turn it off (Kakashi, Danzou, etc) That would give Nagato Uchiha and Senju DNA.
> 
> Nagato was born with it. There's really no way around that.



A COMMON theory? I've never heard this before so how the hell is it a common theory? This is probably the worst explanation I've ever heard. Madara gave birth to an Uzumaki child? Are you serious? Nagato can willingly turn of and on his Rinnegan? In what chapter is this canon fact? What the fuck is this? You want this to be the reasoning behind Tobito? This is fucking TRASH! You sir, should never be a manga writer. EVER


----------



## HyouSan2 (Aug 17, 2012)

Just to chime in. I think that they will show that Tobi is Obito, but then there will be another twist and Tobi won't be simply Obito, but someone else or some amalgamation of personalities and memories from some people or maybe just one person.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

:TR

That was, admittedly, my worst post in this thread. It's funny you pick that one out when I made so many better arguments than that one.


----------



## Talis (Aug 17, 2012)

HyouSan2 said:


> Just to chime in. I think that they will show that Tobi is Obito, but then there will be another twist and Tobi won't be simply Obito, but someone else or some amalgamation of personalities and memories from those people's personalities.


Theres no need go farfetch something like that.
I presume you believe its Izuna in Obito's body?
It doesnt matter who you believe, Madara had once the Rinnegan so why a crushed kids body, if Kishi had such intention he simply could have let Madara use Rinne Tensei on Izuna but he didnt, because its Obito himself, and theres no need to go that far.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 17, 2012)

Awesome said:


> :TR
> 
> That was, admittedly, my worst post in this thread. It's funny you pick that one out when I made so many better arguments than that one.



I didn't pick that one intentionally. I asked a very straight forward question and that's what you chose to reply with. It's not my fault. Are you on medication or something?


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 17, 2012)

Proof please 

Proof please

Proof please

Pro... oh wait there is none


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

That was you? 

And it's not crazy to assume that Nagato inherited them. Madara could have lived longer due to the Senju DNA and gave his rinnegan eyes to Nagato. I find it more likely that he inherited them or was born with them. His eyes were always covered until a "sharingan awakening" type scene so it's definitely possible. I do know one thing: Those weren't Tobi's rinnegan. If they were inherited, they were Madara's.

I'll admit though. That was a shitty response. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes


----------



## NW (Aug 17, 2012)

*Spoiler*: _I almost forgot about this_ 





*When Kakashi says "I can't be siting around while one of my Team 7 students is overdoing it out here!" Tobi looks shocked, like he's having flashbacks or something. Remembering the good ol' days, are we, Tobi?*


----------



## ceralux (Aug 17, 2012)

Awesome said:


> That was you?
> 
> And it's not crazy to assume that Nagato inherited them. Madara could have lived longer due to the Senju DNA and gave his rinnegan eyes to Nagato. I find it more likely that he inherited them or was born with them. His eyes were always covered until a "sharingan awakening" type scene so it's definitely possible. I do know one thing: Those weren't Tobi's rinnegan. If they were inherited, they were Madara's.
> 
> I'll admit though. That was a shitty response. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes



- Madara's Edo has the Rinnegan so that means that he died with them.
- Tobi claimed that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan and when he reclaimed them he said that they were HIS to begin with
- Kishimoto confirmed that the two of them (Madara and Tobi) know each other
- Madara was surprised that he was resurrected by Edo Tensei and NOT Nagato

You can easily link all these pieces together. Tobi Nagato and Madara all have a part to do in the exchanging of the Rinnegan and Obito is much younger than Nagato. He can't possibly have anything to do with the three of them. None of you're speculations debunk this and none of them are nearly mangaka material. You guys should just stick to fan-fictions honestly.


----------



## NW (Aug 17, 2012)

ceralux said:
			
		

> - Madara's Edo has the Rinnegan so that means that he died with them.
> - Tobi claimed that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan and when he reclaimed them he said that they were HIS to begin with
> - Kishimoto confirmed that the two of them (Madara and Tobi) know each other
> - Madara was surprised that he was resurrected by Edo Tensei and NOT Nagato
> ...


Madara originally thought he was revived by Nagato. Yet if he was, his eyes would be gone, so why did he have no problem with the fact that he still had his eyes? Also, why couldn't Madara have given Nagato his old eyes instead of blinding himself?

Not mangaka material, my ass.

Also, what does it matter if our arguments are "mangaku material" or not? If _we_ can come up with an explanation then you can bet your ass Kishi can.


----------



## Talis (Aug 17, 2012)

ceralux said:


> - Madara's Edo has the Rinnegan so that means that he died with them.
> - Tobi claimed that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan and when he reclaimed them he said that they were HIS to begin with
> - Kishimoto confirmed that the two of them (Madara and Tobi) know each other
> - Madara was surprised that he was resurrected by Edo Tensei and NOT Nagato
> ...


He can't?
Anything is possible for Kishi.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

ceralux said:


> - Madara's Edo has the Rinnegan so that means that he died with them.
> - Tobi claimed that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan and when he reclaimed them he said that they were HIS to begin with
> - Kishimoto confirmed that the two of them (Madara and Tobi) know each other
> - Madara was surprised that he was resurrected by Edo Tensei and NOT Nagato
> ...




1. It can't be Tobi's rinnegan:

Tobi referred to Nagato as the third Rikudou. Madara was obviously the second. In order for Tobi to have given Nagato his pair, Tobi would have had to been the third and Nagato would have been the third. Tobi was flat out lying with that statement regardless. He can't have owned his own pair of rinnegan. Nagato's pair is either his own or Madara's, not Tobi's.

2. Madara did have Senju DNA and did live past the VOTE battle. With Senju DNA, it's certainly possible he lived on into Obito's time. 

I'm more interested in who you think Tobi is. Kagami?


----------



## NW (Aug 17, 2012)

Awesome said:
			
		

> 1. It can't be Tobi's rinnegan:
> 
> Tobi referred to Nagato as the third Rikudou. Madara was obviously the second. In order for Tobi to have given Nagato his pair, Tobi would have had to been the third and Nagato would have been the third. Tobi was flat out lying with that statement regardless. He can't have owned his own pair of rinnegan. Nagato's pair is either his own or Madara's, not Tobi's.
> 
> ...


He probably thinks it's Izuna...

Figures someone who supports a fanfiction theory would call the only non-fanfiction theory a fanfiction...


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 17, 2012)

Would anyone like to explain how anyone but Obito could have gotten his other eye?

Like, who could possibly know that "random unremarkable Uchiha kid" would:

-finally activate his Sharingan on this specific mission
-get mortally wounded(crushed under a bunch of rocks)
-have incredibly powerful jutsu hidden within his eyes

And even knowing all that they'd still need to find and obtain the body, which should be next to impossible.

Basically the only way anyone could be capable of any of this is if they literally could see the future.

Or, you know, Tobi could be Obito. That makes a lot more sense.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 17, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Would anyone like to explain how anyone but Obito could have gotten his other eye?
> 
> Like, who could possibly know that "random unremarkable Uchiha kid" would:
> 
> ...



Someone has been reading my posts
I see


----------



## Awesome (Aug 17, 2012)

Someone finding Obito is something that has to be *speculated* by any kind of non-obito theory. No theory has 100% of the facts. Speculation is in there somewhere.

They also have to account for the "Battle at Kannabi Bridge" statement. That statement assumes that Tobi was there.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 17, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Madara originally thought he was revived by Nagato. Yet if he was, his eyes would be gone, so why did he have no problem with the fact that he still had his eyes? Also, why couldn't Madara have given Nagato his old eyes instead of blinding himself?
> 
> Not mangaka material, my ass.
> 
> Also, what does it matter if our arguments are "mangaku material" or not? If _we_ can come up with an explanation then you can bet your ass Kishi can.



I don't understand what you are trying to say. Everything that I stated was in the manga, nothing that I said was a speculation or a theory. 

I don't understand what you mean when you say instead of blinding himself.

Why are you comparing your explanations to Kishimoto's explanations? You clearly aren't on the level of a top class mangaka. Don't put yourself on that level please.

I don't support Kagami or Izuna. I just think they make more sense than Obito. Especially when YOU are the one supporting Tobito it makes everything seem much worse and less likely then it already is. Your reasoning for why it's Obito is actually quite terrible.


----------



## Easley (Aug 17, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Someone finding Obito is something that has to be *speculated* by any kind of non-obito theory. No theory has 100% of the facts. Speculation is in there somewhere.


If Tobi is from Konoha then he wouldn't need to "find" the location, it's already known: Kannabi Bridge. Kakashi probably gave a full report on the incident. Retrieving it isn't a stretch when he's an eye collector. That's my speculation. I'm not sure what to believe at this point. Tobi has lied too much.



> They also have to account for the "Battle at Kannabi Bridge" statement. That statement assumes that Tobi was there.


Or he simply knows about the battle and is messing with Kakashi's emotions. Obito being Tobi does seem obvious but feels wrong for some reason... call it woman's intuition a hunch of mine. Simple solutions are often the best but in this case it's giving away the reveal. That doesn't sit right with me.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It was in a manuscript Kishi wrote.



Well that's hardly surprising since Tobi is using Obito's body. I've heard that there was also a note where Kishi wrote Madara's name beside Tobi's.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> That's not what I meant by that.



Yet you haven't bothered to explain what you *did* mean.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Yes, but you think he's gonna go blabbering about how he's lived a life of regret and broke his promise to protect Rin? Only Obito has the right to say all the things that Tobi's been saying to Kakashi.



When did Tobi mention either a life of regret or anything about Rin?



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Your logic fails. The guy wears a mask.



So? He's already been caught pretending to be Madara when he clearly isn't Madara. What makes you think the face under his mask is really his? The mask is part of his compulsion to avoid being identified which is unnecessary if he was simply Obito. 

I mean let's be honest, Tobito is amazingly anti-climatic. Not only is a large chunk of the readership already assuming he's Obito but...it's Obito.. No one gave a rat's ass about him during Kakashi Gaiden.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> How does this go against him being Obito?



Really? You're playing the dumb card now? 

Obito wasn't born until well after Madara died. So if Madara knows who Tobi is, then logically, it's impossible for Tobi to be Obito but I'm sure I didn't have to actually explain that to you. 



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Actually, it was more like at least 2 years. Now, I don't see why he wouldn't be entitled to say that when he waited 2 years for a quick, ten second event.



Except the problem is that Obito is rash and compulsive and at the same time timid. To have him turn into someone as experienced, mature, patient, confident and powerful as Tobi in only 2 years is completely laughable.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


>



Emoting won't help you win this debate.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He studied?



Yes, because studying is the first priority for little kids full of hate. 

Plus that's another plot hole. In order to know what he does, he needed to have the rinnegan. Obito obviously never had the rinnegan. Tobi and/or Madara did but that was long before Obito's time.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No. I'm telling _other_ people that because I've studied the way Kishimoto writes.



Say it as often as you need to bud. You're only convincing yourself.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why's he wearing a mask, then?



Because he's 'no one'. It fits his doctrine of non-identity, which makes sense if he's not in his own body.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Eyeshape is a way that Kishimoto portrays his characters.



No, it's the way he portrays his character's *physical bodies*. If all you needed was facial detail to recognize a character then there would be no such thing as genjutsu, transformation techniques, mind-body switching, transmigration and pretty much anything that makes someone look like someone else. If you knew *anything* about Kishi's writing style like you claim you do, you'd realize that he pulls jack in the box tactics all the time when it comes to character identity.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> If you can't comprehend the most basic character details then you need to use your brain



You mean basic character details like Tobi and Madara knowing each other? Oh, that's right, you didn't even seem to be aware of that...



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> , assuming you even have one going by how immature you're being.



LoL, excellent. The first sign that your opponent is losing is when they resort to insults, especially ones that are groundless (please show me where in that post I was being immature). It means they're frustrated because they know deep down I'm right and/or they're wrong but they just can't bring themselves to admit it yet.


----------



## Easley (Aug 18, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> I mean let's be honest, Tobito is amazingly anti-climatic. Not only is a large chunk of the readership already assuming he's Obito but...it's Obito.. No one gave a rat's ass about him during Kakashi Gaiden.


 I don't support Tobito, but I, for one, gave a rat's ass about Obito in Kakashi Gaiden. He wasn't likable to start with but grew on me as the story progressed. His death scene is one of Kishi's best pieces of writing. Returning as the villain is going to cheapen that. 

It's just too obvious, which means a surprise is out of the question.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 18, 2012)

If you find Tobi being Obito anti-climactic then you're going to be underwhelmed no matter who Tobi is.

No one gives two fucks about nobodies like Izuna or Kagami, and Tobi being some kind of Madara clone is the definition of anti-climax.


----------



## Combine (Aug 18, 2012)

I think that Obito is a part of Tobi, conversely, I don't think all there is to Tobi is simply Obito.


----------



## Talis (Aug 18, 2012)

A little more and this thread will be history.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 18, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Would anyone like to explain how anyone but Obito could have gotten his other eye?
> 
> Like, who could possibly know that "random unremarkable Uchiha kid" would:
> 
> ...



Its highly likely that Zetsu was the one watching and probably Minato. Considering his S/T Zetsu probably watched him and team with clones.    

If not you have a random body find or Obito rescuing himself.

If Zetsu recorded them and saw Obito awaken a two tomoe Sharingan and go from a nobody to fighting on par with a genius protoge like Kakashi it would perk interest in recovery or rescuing Obito.


----------



## Talis (Aug 18, 2012)

How did Rin die, this question is killing me. 
Did she got killed when she tried looking for Obito's corpse?
If theres such a scene i bet you she couldn't find Obito's corpse and got meanwhile killed by whoever.
But of course this cant be revealed without Tobi being revealed.


----------



## Laura (Aug 18, 2012)

Yeah I think Rin's history will be revealed to us while they are revealing the truth about how Tobi has come to have Obito's eye.


----------



## Easley (Aug 18, 2012)

Yes, I'm fairly sure Rin will be important if Obito or his eye is involved. It's the perfect opportunity to reveal her backstory. How did she die, is Kakashi's MS related, etc. 
or maybe she's Tobi? haha, I'd love that. The forums would probably explode.


----------



## Talis (Aug 18, 2012)

Easley said:


> Yes, I'm fairly sure Rin will be important if Obito or his eye is involved. It's the perfect opportunity to reveal her backstory. How did she die, is Kakashi's MS related, etc.
> or maybe she's Tobi? haha, I'd love that. The forums would probably explode.


If Tobi is Rin i rage quit the manga.


----------



## Komoyaru (Aug 18, 2012)

I don't know if it's Obito, but I realized something that could support it reading CHP 597 where Tobi once again discusses his plans but then he mentions something about a grave? In the second part of the Kakashi episode there is a grave while the narrator talks and I believe Obito's intentions as Tobi is to stop war and everything.


----------



## Laura (Aug 18, 2012)

Explode with awesomeness perhaps.

Is there a "Rin is Tobi" fanclub? I might join it. I don't believe it, but I really want to.


----------



## Laura (Aug 18, 2012)

Komoyaru said:


> I don't know if it's Obito, but I realized something that could support it reading CHP 597 where Tobi once again discusses his plans but then he mentions something about a grave? In the second part of the Kakashi episode there is a grave while the narrator talks *and I believe Obito's intentions as Tobi is to stop war and everything.*



Well a fine job he is doing of that.


----------



## Komoyaru (Aug 18, 2012)

lololol but still. He mentions something about Kakashi at a grave when Kakashi questions Tobi about his sharingan.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

loool3 said:


> A little more and this thread will be history.







Agsrower said:


> Yeah I think Rin's history will be revealed to us while they are revealing the truth about how Tobi has come to have Obito's eye.



how much you want to bet that Rin is never mentioned?


----------



## Escargon (Aug 18, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> What are you going to do if Tobi's unmasked and it's just Obito's face?
> 
> Are you going to admit you were mistaken, or are you going to claim that Kishi drew things wrong?



Now why wouldnt Tobi look like Madara IF we saw Madaras flashbacks and Kishi showing Tobis face while still calling him Madara? Obviously cause he got Madaras face atleast on that side he showed himself to Sasuke.


So if im mistaken, i will make a thead about it. Even if i will get hate i WILL make a thread about it. 



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> And they don't look alike.



Just watch the glare Tobi gives.. noone else but Madara got that.

And why would Kishi risk using Tobi and Madara in the same page?


----------



## Laura (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> how much you want to bet that Rin is never mentioned?



I'm not even going to consider that possibility. This manga lacks girl material. Kishi fucking _*needs*_ this. I was one of the people who thought we'd never even get to see Sakura's parents. But fillers proved me wrong.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

Agsrower said:


> I'm not even going to consider that possibility. This manga lacks girl material. Kishi fucking _*needs*_ this. I was one of the people who thought we'd never even get to see Sakura's parents. But fillers proved me wrong.



thats true

it disappoints me that Kishi didnt develop Hinata and her sister Hanabi


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 18, 2012)

It makes sense  More plausible than Obito even.

Getting more Danzo is worth it. That man is a pandorica box waiting to open.


----------



## Laura (Aug 18, 2012)

Maybe right at the end of the manga after everything important happens, Hanabi gets killed by some natural lightning in a freak accident. Just to troll the Hinata fans.


----------



## ShenLong Kazama (Aug 18, 2012)

Remember this page? I was a bit curious about what Tobi said.

Link removed


----------



## gloomygrim (Aug 18, 2012)

I like the idea of it being kagami more so than obito,  the obito theorists or terrorists have made it un bearable to even contemplate agreeing with.

Kagami being tobi could knock out a lot of the plot holes,  it does leave some behind but there easy solved with a little thinkin.    

1. tobi has MS yet he is not going blind,  afaik, senju DNA does not stop you goin blind,  so it points to a transplant or looting of an eye.

2. as tobi has a collection of sharingan why would he choose that one eye?   out of every other eye that one cannot be the most powerfull.

3. how would obito, being a child and fairly weak, know how to control the kyubi, and summon it.

4. kagami would be roughly the same age as the 3rd.

5. (a theory more than a point) how does tobi know about obitos last time with kak and rin,  zetsu,  he said he is the land so he could ahve been gloopin about in a tree and he can record crap and show it folks.  He could very easily have been about when obito got crunched,  and showed tobi what he saw, tobi goes and gets the body nice new eye.   

Only thing is how come tobi only uses the obito eye, it is the obito eye no arguments about that, and how come thats the only MS he can seemingly use.  (Q does sasuke have his own MS abilities or is everythin he can do itachis?   if so then who ever took obitos eye perhaps did not awaken there own MS and pulled a kakashi and awakened obitos,  or (big theory) when kakashi awakened his MS tobi's MS awoke to, or vice versa)

If im wrong on anythin its early here and im only on my 1st coffee


----------



## Scizor (Aug 18, 2012)

Udontard4ever said:


> there's also this
> 
> 
> 
> danzo clearly doesn't trust kagami, he knows he's plotting something





Funny stuff.


----------



## Tifa (Aug 18, 2012)

So Kagami wasn't helping at the Kyuubi attack?  Well neither was Danzo.. 

Jk, sounds plausible enough to be true. Not sure I want it to be but still plausible.


----------



## gjoerulv (Aug 18, 2012)

Agsrower said:


> I'm not even going to consider that possibility. This manga lacks girl material. Kishi fucking _*needs*_ this. I was one of the people who thought we'd never even get to see Sakura's parents. But fillers proved me wrong.



I've never understood this criticism. For the 1st, there already are plenty of "girl material". 2nd: Why is it important? Is it mandatory for a story to include lots of "girl material"? To be politically correct? If that's the case he should include 33,3% lesbian and gay couples with kids too. Not to mention race.

To me it looks like people are asking for clich?s.

Ontopic: I don't think Tobi is Rin. I don't think Tobi is only Obito (body and mind), but I see how that could make sense. The biggest hindrance I see is the Nagato + Madara connection.


----------



## Jaime Lannister (Aug 18, 2012)

Is Tobi's hair really that conclusive? People grow it out and cut it short all the time.


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## The World (Aug 18, 2012)

Udontard4ever said:


> that video is pretty worthless (except for the music)
> 
> however tobi being kagami would be the least plothole ridden solution



No the least plothole ridden would be the Uchiha ancestor


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## The World (Aug 18, 2012)

It's the Uchiha's ancestor


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## Laura (Aug 18, 2012)

Nah his eyes look funny. Maybe the Uchiha clan aren't his real descendants, his children were adopted.


----------



## The World (Aug 18, 2012)

You do realize Kishi drew that picture like an old time Japanese water paint picture right?

He wouldn't exactly look like that...............lol


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 18, 2012)

the uchiha ancestor should be old as fuck
kagami works even without resurrection/life prolonging gimmicks


----------



## Raiden (Aug 18, 2012)

Jaime Lannister said:


> Is Tobi's hair really that conclusive? People grow it out and cut it short all the time.



The way it was drawn when Tobi revealed himself to Itachi was certainly strange. The direction does it look like a longer version of Izuna's.


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 18, 2012)

The World said:


> Because Tobi proclaiming himself as Madara didn't seem weird as a 100 year old fuck?



it realy did. and the explanation was the he wasn't really madara.


----------



## The World (Aug 18, 2012)

Udontard4ever said:


> it realy did. and the explanation was the he wasn't really madara.



Really? When you have people like Kakuzu, Hidan, Sasori, Orochimaru and now the real Madara walking around........really? 

You must be slow on the uptake of this series


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 18, 2012)

they have all gimmicks/methods that had to be thoroughly explained 
and that's what i've been saying since the first post


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 18, 2012)

i mean wanna start a fight?


----------



## The World (Aug 18, 2012)

Internet tough guy huh?

I bet you dun even lift

Hurrrrr


----------



## The World (Aug 18, 2012)

Udontard4ever said:


> they have all gimmicks/methods that had to be thoroughly explained
> and that's what i've been saying since the first post



Tobi's will be explained when he is revealed 

He is final villain after all


Durrrrrrrrr


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 18, 2012)

The World said:


> Tobi's will be explained when he is revealed
> 
> He is final villain after all
> 
> ...



is he?

i lift potato chips when i eat them


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 18, 2012)

seriously w/e 
might be uchiha ancestor but i still think kagami could fit pretty well in the facts we already know


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## The World (Aug 18, 2012)

I wasn't disagreeing with that, just I think Uchiha ancestor is the main contender with Kagami being after, maybe Obito after that, maybe Sasuke from the future, maybe Madara's brother

Who knows for sure


----------



## Easley (Aug 18, 2012)

That video is actually quite good - well put together. It almost convinced me, but the face comparisons near the end were disappointing. And was that fan art I saw? Cheater! 

S/he makes some excellent points though. I might have another look at Kagami... 

oh, the video was dated Jan 4 so could need updating in light of recent developments.


----------



## Vice (Aug 18, 2012)

I'm fairly certain Kishi's not going to waste his big reveal on a guy who 95% of his fanbase will have to immediately google because they don't know who the fuck he is.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Aug 18, 2012)

Vice said:


> I'm fairly certain Kishi's not going to waste his big reveal on a guy who 95% of his fanbase will have to immediately google because they don't know who the fuck he is.



*Yeah, it has to be someone more known and would cause much drama like Obito *


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 18, 2012)

Vice said:


> I'm fairly certain Kishi's not going to waste his big reveal on a guy who 95% of his fanbase will have to immediately google because they don't know who the fuck he is.



This is why I'm leaning to more Tobito side.

However it has too many plotholes and everything's uncertain at the moment.
Anything can happen but I'll be really disappointed if he doesn't turn out Obito.


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## Escargon (Aug 18, 2012)

The World said:


> It's the Uchiha's ancestor



So you honestly think that the ancestor would use MADARAS name?


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

Udontard4ever said:


> however tobi being kagami would be the least plothole ridden solution



im glad some people are starting to realise this



Jeαnne said:


> well, if tobi is kagami, at least it would give more depth to the whole hiruzen-danzou story, and more insight on tobirama...



im liking the backstory and flashbacks this would bring

especially if it involves Root


----------



## ceralux (Aug 18, 2012)

Does any Tobito want to answer what ObitoUchiha111 was trying to say when he stated that Madara gave Nagato his eyes to avoid blinding himself?


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

rainyrabbit said:


> I like the possibility of Kagami being Obito's father, and thus becoming Tobi.



this is what im predicting as well


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

The big reveal will be that Tobi is some guy who was in 2 panels? Anyone who honestly believes this shit doesn't understand storytelling at all.

First, the name argument: Kagami was on Tobirama's squad, so he took his alias 'Tobi' from him.

Rebuttal: Tobi and Tobirama are comprised of completely different Japanese characters, so if Kagami shortened his name to get his alias, then it wouldn't be spelled the way it is.

That's... pretty much the only argument this theory has, I think...

People say, "but he'd be connected to Danzo!"

So what? The main villain who was responsible for the deaths of the main character's parents; the source of all this mystery; someone referred to as the darkness and a harbinger of destruction, is going to turn out to be some random one paneled character who is connected to some old ass man nobody likes instead of being connected to a main character?

I'd also like to bring up that Kagami wasn't even ON Team Tobirama. He was in Danzo's team which teamed up with Team Tobirama in the First Shinobi World War.

Also, how would we recognize Kagami? We only got one clear shot of his face, and even that was sloppily drawn and it didn't even resemble Tobi's face at all. I'm talking about what we saw in the manga, not the anime which people ever so conveniently use to compare their faces. The only person who would recognize him is Danzo, and he's dead! I suppose the elders might recognize him too, but why should the secret that's been kept for so long only shock the old as elders?

He was also introduced 200 chapters AFTER Tobi, which isn't a wise thing to do if he was Tobi.

People say "oh, he has no plotholes!" Well, who cares? He has no plotholes because he has no plot. I mean, you could take just about any other random character and say he's Tobi. SURE there's nothing to specifically CONTRADICT it, but there's ALSO nothing to SUGGEST it.

Even god damn Izuna would better than this shit. And I hate both of those theories.

It's very sad that people have deluded themselves into believing that such a random Uchiha is Tobi.

Tobi's not Kagami, people. Get over it. Go leave your fanfics somewhere else.

I know people will still believe Tobi is Kagami even after reading this post, but that's only because they're in denial and they can't face the fact that the person they've been speculating to be Tobi for so long really is just a random, irrelevant character.


----------



## HK-47 (Aug 18, 2012)

Tobi is Tobi.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

ceralux said:


> Does any Tobito want to answer what ObitoUchiha111 was trying to say when he stated that Madara gave Nagato his eyes to avoid blinding himself?



it was likely a typo in the paragraph. when you type a lot sometimes without thinking you put down something convoluted without realizing it.

What he means is he blinded himself to give Nagato the Rinnegan and went on to live after that. LOsing your eyes doesn't equate to death. Izuna lived for some time after he gave madara his eyes. And who knows its possible madara inserted another pair of sharingans after he gave his rinnegan to nagato if thats the case. 

Regardless to say he had the rinnegan in his eyes when he was alive because of edo tensei is BAD thinking. Because his edo was and is 'special'. He didn't die that young. And Kabuto experimented on him a little bit to make sure he had everything possible in his arsenal while in his prime.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

Obito said:


> *There's a lot of evidence
> *
> randomly saw this video on YouTube when I was looking for Tobi scenes
> 
> ...



A: He has had a total of 3 panels, and 1 line Through the whole series so far.

B: There is NOT a lot of evidence. In fact there is ZERO.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> The big reveal will be that Tobi is some guy who was in 2 panels? Anyone who honestly believes this shit doesn't understand storytelling at all.
> 
> First, the name argument: Kagami was on Tobirama's squad, so he took his alias 'Tobi' from him.
> 
> ...



oh the insecurity 

bolded part is made up by the way


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> oh the insecurity


I take it you can't refute any of my points? When someone agrees with you you're okay but when someone argues against your theory you ignore everything they say and call them insecure. It's like talking to a brick wall. Pathetic.



> bolded part is made up by the way


My bad, it was during the whole First War. Still, doesn't matter though. And all my other points stand strong.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> oh the insecurity
> 
> bolded part is made up by the way



No it's not.

Team Tobirama consisted of Hiruzen, Homura, Koharu, and Tobirama himself.
Use deductive reasoning

Unless you wanna say Team 7 AND Team 8 are all trained by Kakashi, because you know Kakashi lead those two groups who combined on the search for Sasuke mission as he fought Itachi.....................
Team 7 is Kakashi's
Team 8 is Hinata, Shino, and Kiba. 

You fail at logic


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 18, 2012)

The problem with that though, is that edo Madara specifically stated that he achieved rinnegan *shortly* before his death.  This implies that he had it at the very most, a year or two before he died, and even that seems like a bit much.  Considering Obito died at about 13 years old, that would leave approximately 7 years that Madara would have had to live without his rinnegan, and that's if Madara gave up his eyes late in the war, and the second and third wars were only 20 years apart.

Also Tobi, when taking Nagato's eyes, specifically stated that he was "taking back what was his to begin with".  Now, speaking as Madara, I can see him claiming that he "gave" Nagato those eyes if he were indeed his biological father.  However, to say that they were his to begin with, implies that they were transplants, which again puts a hole through real Madara's explanation of when he achieved them.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> The problem with that though, is that edo Madara specifically stated that he achieved rinnegan *shortly* before his death.  This implies that he had it at the very most, a year or two before he died, and even that seems like a bit much.  Considering Obito died at about 13 years old, that would leave approximately 7 years that Madara would have had to live without his rinnegan, and that's if Madara gave up his eyes late in the war, and the second and third wars were only 20 years apart.
> 
> Also Tobi, when taking Nagato's eyes, specifically stated that he was "taking back what was his to begin with".  Now, speaking as Madara, I can see him claiming that he "gave" Nagato those eyes if he were indeed his biological father.  However, to say that they were his to begin with, implies that they were transplants, which again puts a hole through real Madara's explanation of when he achieved them.



You can say all you want about implies or guesses on time when Madara died. But there is no way to know. Kishi left it vague for a reason. Because if we knew forsure when he died, then we would know who tobi was FORSURE. 

Time is a very relative term with perspective. 2 years to a 13 year old is very long while 10 years to an 80 year old can be short.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

we dont know enough to claim who belonged to what team

they were all under Team Tobirama as far as we know


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> The problem with that though, is that edo Madara specifically stated that he achieved rinnegan *shortly* before his death.  This implies that he had it at the very most, a year or two before he died, and even that seems like a bit much.  Considering Obito died at about 13 years old, that would leave approximately 7 years that Madara would have had to live without his rinnegan, and that's if Madara gave up his eyes late in the war, and the second and third wars were only 20 years apart.
> 
> Also Tobi, when taking Nagato's eyes, specifically stated that he was "taking back what was his to begin with".  Now, speaking as Madara, I can see him claiming that he "gave" Nagato those eyes if he were indeed his biological father.  However, to say that they were his to begin with, implies that they were transplants, which again puts a hole through real Madara's explanation of when he achieved them.



very well put


----------



## Uchiha Q (Aug 18, 2012)

General Mael Radec said:


> I see, its very much possible. Naruto was charged with the burden of finding peace and after so many years as hokage and helping the world he noticed no such thing existed. hatred and killing never stoped, sadness was part of a daily life for some people. Seeing this he used a forbidden jutsu and went back in time, took obitos sharigan and decided to turn everything into an illusion to obtain peace in a way that no violance would happen, it would be a manipulated world but it will be a peaceful world.



exactly what I thought, it would be a good twist


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 18, 2012)

@Mistshadow:  That's true, but as has been stated here before, Kishimoto is mostly writing for a younger audience, who are not likely to think of time as being relative.  Also, to say that the wars were 20 years apart is a logical conclusion, because Naruto focuses on things being generational, and a generation is about 20-25 years.  Besides all that though, if Madara is Nagato's biological father, would the Hashirama cells he put into himself be enough to create a rinnegan?  As with the time frame of the wars, there is no proof either way, so that is also just speculation.  One could say that Uzumaki dna could have been the catalyst, but there is also no evidence either way for that.

Edit:  Just so you can't say that I'm ignoring the perspective aspect.  Time is relative to age, but it is also relative to the impact of an event on your life.  For someone like Madara, who prides himself on his power, a time frame of say 10 years of being without that power would be lot longer than to someone who doesn't value power as much.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> we dont know enough to claim who belonged to what team
> 
> they were all under Team Tobirama as far as we know



For Christ's sake
here

Where is Danzo, Kagami, and that Akimichi


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> You can say all you want about implies or guesses on time when Madara died. But there is no way to know. Kishi left it vague for a reason. Because if we knew forsure when he died, then we would know who tobi was FORSURE.
> 
> Time is a very relative term. 2 years to a 13 year old is very long while 10 years to an 80 year old can be short.



Really?

You really think 2 years (rather less) is that long for a guy like obito wanting to have control over the world for a reason like war and rin's death??
Isn't it absolute speculation that obito matured drastically so much in within 2 years time both mentally and physically??
I mean it took sasuke (whose complete clan was killed, which I believe is more than any good reason to have revenge or total control over the planet) more than 10 years to come in par with tobi.

And as far as tobi's connection with kakashi is concerned, it can be safely said that tobi knows a lot about everyone and everything in his surroundings.
I mean its ok for tobito fans to see tobi comment on kakashi standing near a grave but didn't it ever come to your mind about how tobi can easily make remarks on how jiraiya and minato entrusted naruto with something.
I mean now its tobi's business all of a sudden to stalk naruto with his training and having a conversation with his father.


----------



## The World (Aug 18, 2012)

Escargon said:


> So you honestly think that the ancestor would use MADARAS name?



Nobody even knows the ancestor's name. How could he strike fear and infamy into them when no one knows of him?

People are well aware of Madara, who was the strongest Uchiha in the past 100 years.

I'm pretty sure that was obvious the moment it was revealed Tobi was not Madara


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Aug 18, 2012)

That's pretty desperate, considering we saw all of the team at the kyuubi attack but Danzo and Kagami. Also, considering that at the time of that reveal neither one were known to exist in the story.


----------



## T-Bag (Aug 18, 2012)

Vice said:


> I'm fairly certain Kishi's not going to waste his big reveal on a guy who 95% of his fanbase will have to immediately google because they don't know who the fuck he is.



lol yeah


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> For Christ's sake
> here
> 
> Where is Danzo, Kagami, and that Akimichi



 would you look at that 

well done, i guess i concede



Tobi = Kagami is still plausible though


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> @Mistshadow:  That's true, but as has been stated here before, Kishimoto is mostly writing for a younger audience, who are not likely to think of time as being relative.  Also, to say that the wars were 20 years apart is a logical conclusion, because Naruto focuses on things being generational, and a generation is about 20-25 years.  Besides all that though, if Madara is Nagato's biological father, would the Hashirama cells he put into himself be enough to create a rinnegan?  As with the time frame of the wars, there is no proof either way, so that is also just speculation.  One could say that Uzumaki dna could have been the catalyst, but there is also no evidence either way for that.
> 
> Edit:  Just so you can't say that I'm ignoring the perspective aspect.  Time is relative to age, but it is also relative to the impact of an event on your life.  For someone like Madara, who prides himself on his power, a time frame of say 10 years of being without that power would be lot longer than to someone who doesn't value power as much.



I get what you're saying, and like I said I merely offer up possibilities to negate the 'plotholes' and timeline issues that jacamo offers up. I know I'm not 100% right in any of this. What I do know is there would be nothing wrong with Obito being Tobi and if that's the case, the timeline still works out. Personally in my opinion Kishi writes shortly and long to throw us off because we have no idea HOW short or HOW long. 
To have Madara say that brat finally grew up, he could have been talking about his power finally maturing. He uses metaphors ALOT. dancing, he called the kages and his power referring to an adult never going full force on children. We jus thave to wait and see


imsogettingbanned said:


> Really?
> 
> And as far as tobi's connection with kakashi is concerned, it can be safely said that tobi knows a lot about everyone and everything in his surroundings.
> I mean its ok for tobito fans to see tobi comment on kakashi standing near a grave but didn't it ever come to your mind about how tobi can easily make remarks on how jiraiya and minato entrusted naruto with something.
> I mean now its tobi's business all of a sudden to stalk naruto with his training and having a conversation with his father.



Yeah, and he was totally stalking Kakashi and Obito throughout the whole war to get that regular old 2 tomoe sharingan knowing it would have a hax S/T jutsu if awakened to MS.......................
But the owner actually being the original owner of the sharingan while obviously having a messed up body of zetsuness, CANT be the guy who was smashed by boulders, THATS farfetched.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

Seto Kaiba said:


> That's pretty desperate, considering we saw all of the team at the kyuubi attack but Danzo and Kagami. Also, considering that at the time of that reveal neither one were known to exist in the story.



We saw NO Uchiha

And Danzo, who the fuck knows lol


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

*Join the Tobito side. You'll feel better!*



ceralux said:


> I don't understand what you are trying to say. Everything that I stated was in the manga, nothing that I said was a speculation or a theory.
> 
> I don't understand what you mean when you say instead of blinding himself.


I meant he could have given Nagato his old eyes instead of Izuna's.



> Why are you comparing your explanations to Kishimoto's explanations? You clearly aren't on the level of a top class mangaka. Don't put yourself on that level please.


When did I say I was comparing them?



> I don't support Kagami or Izuna. I just think they make more sense than Obito. Especially when YOU are the one supporting Tobito it makes everything seem much worse and less likely then it already is. Your reasoning for why it's Obito is actually quite terrible.


Explain to me how my reasoning is terrible.



HakuGaara said:


> Well that's hardly surprising since Tobi is using Obito's body. I've heard that there was also a note where Kishi wrote Madara's name beside Tobi's.


Using Obito's body doesn't make him Obito.





> Yet you haven't bothered to explain what you *did* mean.


Can't find the post so won't bother explaining.





> When did Tobi mention either a life of regret or anything about Rin?


"Kakashi, you always open your mouth too easily. It's no wonder you've lived a life of regret." 

"It's too late to regret. Reality will just keep cruelly moving forward."

The Rin things was just suggested, not outright stated, but I took it from:

"No wish can ever come true in this world."

"Hm, entrusted? But Naruto... if you failed with what the Fourth and Jiraiya entrusted you with, I wonder what they would think of you. If you failed with what they entrusted you with... how would you feel about yourself? Even if you delay the problem by using words like "hope", the empty reality will just be there waiting. Both the ones who entrusted and the ones who were entrusted with... will both be empty."





> So? He's already been caught pretending to be Madara when he clearly isn't Madara. What makes you think the face under his mask is really his? The mask is part of his compulsion to avoid being identified which is unnecessary if he was simply Obito.


S, you're saying he'd want people to know who he is?



> I mean let's be honest, Tobito is amazingly anti-climatic. Not only is a large chunk of the readership already assuming he's Obito but...it's Obito..


Obito's the only Tobi candidate anyone would actually care about. Kagami and Izuna are just too random and no one cares about their character. I also don't see how Tobi being Obito would be anti-climactic. Unless Kakashi outright screams "OBITO!" before the reveal, I highly doubt it's a red herring. The casual fan doesn't over analyze shit to the extent us extreme fans do. 





> No one gave a rat's ass about him during Kakashi Gaiden.


They didn't? That's new to me. They obviously did if you look at the responses to Kakashi Gaiden. Stop making shit up.





> Really? You're playing the dumb card now?
> 
> Obito wasn't born until well after Madara died. So if Madara knows who Tobi is, then logically, it's impossible for Tobi to be Obito but I'm sure I didn't have to actually explain that to you.[/QUOTE}Prove to me that Madara died before Obito was born.
> 
> ...


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> Really?
> 
> You really think 2 years (rather less) is that long for a guy like obito wanting to have control over the world for a reason like war and rin's death??
> Isn't it absolute speculation that obito matured drastically so much in within 2 years time both mentally and physically??



yeh i dont buy it either... not to mention what Tobi said to Kushina "Do you have ANY idea how long ive waited for this moment?"


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> yeh i dont buy it either... not to mention what Tobi said to Kushina "Do you have ANY idea how long ive waited for this moment?"


Stop capitalizing the "any". He didn't stress it that much.


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 18, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think that would be a better identity for tobi,
> 
> tobi is naruto, except naruto from either the FUTURE or another dimension
> 
> ...


OP is trying to make the Obito-Tobi theory brilliant.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I take it you can't refute any of my points? When someone agrees with you you're okay but when someone argues against your theory you ignore everything they say and call them insecure. It's like talking to a brick wall. Pathetic.



the insecurity comment was actually directed at the tone of your post and the fact you 1-stared the thread  but whatever


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Stop capitalizing the "any". He didn't stress it that much.



youre changing the facts again... Tobi definitely stressed it


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

Those young hands.


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> youre changing the facts again... Tobi definitely stressed it


Can't you take a joke, lol?

I acknowledge that this is a problem for the Tobito theory. Not enough to make me doubt my faith in it, though.


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 18, 2012)

Tobi being Kagami theory was good when we didn't know if Tobi's S/T was a sharingan jutsu or not. Because Kagami was a student (If im not mistaken) of the second Hokage and could've learned the S/T jutsu of Tobirama.

But now that we know that his S/T is from Obito's eye i don't think is Kagami.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 18, 2012)

Well, if we were to base our belief in any of the theories on whether or not there were problems, none of the theories would have any followers, save for those who refuse to be objective.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Can't you take a joke, lol?
> 
> I acknowledge that this is a problem for the Tobito theory. Not enough to make me doubt my faith in it, though.



so now you say you were joking?


----------



## Talis (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> youre changing the facts again... Tobi definitely stressed it


wow, that eye is exactly drawn as Obito's eye. It's even more clear in this panel.


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> so now you say you were joking?


that should have been evident by the .

But I obviously wasn't joking.



loool3 said:


> wow, that eye is exactly drawn as Obito's eye. It's even more clear in this panel.


The panels they use to try to disprove it actually end up supporting the theory more.

The thing is, Kagami's eyeshape doesn't even match Tobi's.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

loool3 said:


> wow, that eye is exactly drawn as Obito's eye. It's even more clear in this panel.



you see, Obito fans are willing to say anything


----------



## Orochibuto (Aug 18, 2012)

Paralakz said:


> If its anyone from the future/another dimension it's Itachi.
> 
> If its anyone from the past involving time distortion/manipulation/travel but from this dimension, it's obito.
> 
> ...



Maybe on their own dimension things were already way too screwed up to attempt anything, specially if we consider theories say that time travel = inter-universal travel anyway.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

TheIronMan said:


> Tobi being Kagami theory was good when we didn't know if Tobi's S/T was a sharingan jutsu or not. Because Kagami was a student (If im not mistaken) of the second Hokage and could've learned the S/T jutsu of Tobirama.
> 
> But now that we know that his S/T is from Obito's eye i don't think is Kagami.



but how could anyone know Obito's Sharingan had S/T potential in the first place? this makes me think Tobi and Obito are at least related


----------



## Easley (Aug 18, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Well, if we were to base our belief in any of the theories on whether or not there were problems, none of the theories would have any followers, save for those who refuse to be objective.


It depends how serious the problems are. Izuna, for example, is one of the most plausible candidates because he's old enough to avoid any timeline issues. He's also Madara's brother, which explains his intimate knowledge of that era and the man himself... _but_, the main characters don't know him. That simple fact spoils the theory if we want a decent reaction from Naruto and co.

Tobito theory is the most popular... but in my opinion, it's also the hardest to piece together and make sense of. So much needs to happen for Obito to become Tobi and set the current events in motion.


----------



## Talis (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you see, Obito fans are willing to say anything


Yes, because Kagami supporters doesnt have proofs to say anything.


----------



## Talis (Aug 18, 2012)

Easley said:


> It depends how serious the problems are. Izuna, for example, is one of the most plausible candidates because he's old enough to avoid any timeline issues. He's also Madara's brother, which explains his intimate knowledge of that era and the man himself... _but_, the main characters don't know him. That simple fact spoils the theory if we want a decent reaction from Naruto and co.
> 
> Tobito theory is the most popular... but in my opinion, it's also the hardest to piece together and make sense of. So much needs to happen for Obito to become Tobi and set the current events in motion.


Nope.
People says that Tobito reading the Uchiha tablet is to farfetched for his knowledge, but even then Izuna must have been reading it too since he didn't live in RS era.


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> you see, Obito fans are willing to say anything


So, you're saying his eye doesn't look like Obito's? Get a grip.

Do you not realize that Tobi's eyeshape is different from Kagami's?

You Kagami fans ignore everything, seriously.


----------



## Ghost (Aug 18, 2012)

i chop off my dick if tobi is kagami.


----------



## Talis (Aug 18, 2012)

TheIronMan said:


> Tobi being Kagami theory was good when we didn't know if Tobi's S/T was a sharingan jutsu or not. Because Kagami was a student (If im not mistaken) of the second Hokage and could've learned the S/T jutsu of Tobirama.
> 
> But now that we know that his S/T is from Obito's eye i don't think is Kagami.


We knew that Tobi's S/T was Sharingan related from the start, Kagami wasnt even there in the plot lol.


----------



## Johnny Kage (Aug 18, 2012)

Tobi is my grandma


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 18, 2012)

Heh! 
Even rin matches the profile for tobito theories.

So I guess its safe for me to say that rin took obito's sharingan, and saw the war, kakashi's lame promises at graves and decided to control the world for good.
Of course she would use a jutsu to change her voice.


----------



## Saunion (Aug 18, 2012)

zantha said:


> i had a simaler idea. tobi is menma, the AU naruto form the newest film.



Let's not ruin a cool original character by dragging him into this mess now.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 18, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> Heh!
> Even rin matches the profile for tobito theories.
> 
> So I guess its safe for me to say that rin took obito's sharingan, and saw the war, kakashi's lame promises at graves and decided to control the world for good.
> Of course she would use a jutsu to change her voice.



And a jutsu to make her body look like a man.


----------



## Easley (Aug 18, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Nope.
> People says that Tobito reading the Uchiha tablet is to farfetched for his knowledge, but even then Izuna must have been reading it too since he didn't live in RS era.


Maybe, but I'm mostly referring to Tobi's origin. Izuna fits seamlessly into the timeline and can assume a new identity without too many problems. Obito needs to survive the rocks, be rebuilt by Zetsu, and then somehow improve rapidly in order to attack Konoha.

I'm not saying Kishi can't explain all this, but it won't be easy.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 18, 2012)

Escargon said:


> And a jutsu to make her body look like a man.



When did you find tobi's body manly?? :ho
Besides there are many girls who are flat.. and resistant to fighting!


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> Heh!
> Even rin matches the profile for tobito theories.
> 
> So I guess its safe for me to say that rin took obito's sharingan, and saw the war, kakashi's lame promises at graves and decided to control the world for good.
> Of course she would use a jutsu to change her voice.


Her eyeshape doesn't match, she has no motive, and it wouldn't make any sense. And she's dead. Plus, she doesn't fit with Kishi's writing style. 



Escargon said:


> And a jutsu to make her body look like a man.


If you're going to go with that, then why didn't she just make herself look like Madara so she could impersonate him better?


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Her eyeshape doesn't match, she has no motive, and it wouldn't make any sense.



And then you say, non-tobito fans are in denial.
You know for sure that obito has all the motives of the world to rule the planet, in hiding and you also know for sure that rin has no motives.
At times I wonder did you in the first place gave the idea of NARUTO to Masashi Kishimoto.

Give me just one good reason why wouldn't it make any sense for rin to be tobi, besides that eyeshape crap.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So, you're saying his eye doesn't look like Obito's? Get a grip.
> 
> Do you not realize that Tobi's eyeshape is different from Kagami's?
> 
> You Kagami fans ignore everything, seriously.



it doesnt ... its just like any other eye 



Shirosaki said:


> i chop off my dick if tobi is kagami.



uh..... challenge accepted?


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> And then you say, non-tobito fans are in denial.
> You know for sure that obito has all the motives of the world to rule the planet, in hiding and you also know for sure that rin has no motives.
> At times I wonder did you in the first place gave the idea of NARUTO to Masashi Kishimoto.


So I take it the past few chapters haven't made it clear to you what part of Obito's motive is?



> Give me just one good reason why wouldn't it make any sense for rin to be tobi, besides that eyeshape crap.


Reasons why Tobi can't be Rin:

1. Their eyeshapes are different.

2. No plausible motive.

3. Tobi is a man.





jacamo said:


> it doesnt ... its just like any other eye


Yep, you're in denial.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> And then you say, non-tobito fans are in denial.
> You know for sure that obito has all the motives of the world to rule the planet, in hiding and you also know for sure that rin has no motives.
> At times I wonder did you in the first place gave the idea of NARUTO to Masashi Kishimoto.
> 
> Give me just one good reason why wouldn't it make any sense for rin to be tobi, besides that eyeshape crap.



i think they are saying Obito is butthurt over Rin


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> REasons why Rin can't be Tobi:
> 
> 1. Their eyeshapes are different.
> 
> ...



1) Eyeshape crap is lame. Too lame.

2)Rin witnessed her best friends death and many more people later in the war, and saw kakashi making lame promisses at people's graves and madara started mindfucking her.

3)Now how do you know tobi is a man?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

Easley said:


> Maybe, but I'm mostly referring to Tobi's origin. Izuna fits seamlessly into the timeline and can assume a new identity without too many problems. Obito needs to survive the rocks, be rebuilt by Zetsu, and then somehow improve rapidly in order to attack Konoha.
> 
> I'm not saying Kishi can't explain all this, but it won't be easy.



Well yeah, Izuna was the top candidate and most likely identity of Tobi, I have quite a few threads on it, but it went down in the list with MAdara saying all that is left of him being his eyes and power along with more supportive material for Obito being Tobi makes Izuna the 2nd most likely candidate


----------



## Escargon (Aug 18, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> When did you find tobi's body manly?? :ho
> Besides there are many girls who are flat.. and resistant to fighting!



The shoulders, no tits, no butt, and the shape around the stomach.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> If you're going to go with that, then why didn't she just make herself look like Madara so she could impersonate him better?



Sorry for arguing, Tobi is Obito, i seriously should drop this "Tobi is a Madaraclone" theory.

And to quote something totally random out of the air:

"It doesnt have a mind on its own."


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Yep, you're in denial.



you are the ones who are in denial over the Obito plotholes

the amount fanfic you guys resort to is just


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> i think they are saying Obito is butthurt over Rin


Pretty much.

Any you know what? It's a hell of a lot better than a old ass man who's butthurt over his son's death. Obito gave his life to protect Rin and Kakashi promised to protect her, but he failed. Obito might think he shouldn't have saved Kakashi and should have been there to protect Rin. There's also the fact that it was all because of war and Madara might have mindfucked him by telling him about the Uchiha's history. Maybe Obito also hated the Uchiha because they treated him like an outcast for being weaker then most Uchiha's were. Maybe an Uchiha was actually behind Rin's death.

It's alot more of a better motive than the simple one you think kagami has, when you don't even know if he's Obito's father or not. And Obito doesn't have an unexplained death like Rin.

Seriously, you're so hypocritical it's laughable.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> Any you know what? It's a hell of a lot better than a old ass man who's butthurt over his son's death. Obito gave his life to protect Rin and Kakashi promised to protect her, but he failed. Obito might think he shouldn't have saved Kakashi and should have been there to protect Rin. There's also the fact that it was all because of war and Madara might have mindfucked him by telling him about the Uchiha's history. Maybe Obito also hated the Uchiha because they treated him like an outcast for being weaker then most Uchiha's were. Maybe an Uchiha was actually behind Rin's death.
> 
> ...



thats not why i think its Kagami though

the timeline fits + no plotholes... that is all


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 18, 2012)

Escargon said:


> The shoulders, no tits, no butt, and the shape around the stomach.



Just add an orange mask with an eye-hole on the left and color the hair black and cut them spiky on konan.
There, you have your tobi.


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> 1) Eyeshape crap is lame. Too lame.


If you got attacked by an elephant in broad daylight, and later your best friend says his dog was behind it, would you believe him?



> 2)Rin witnessed her best friends death and many more people later in the war, and saw kakashi making lame promisses at people's graves and madara started mindfucking her.


Kakashi didn't break a promise to Rin. And how do you explain her apparent death?



> 3)Now how do you know tobi is a man?


What Escargon said.



jacamo said:


> you are the ones who are in denial over the Obito plotholes
> 
> the amount fanfic you guys resort to is just


You think you have the right to say that when you support a whole theory theory based on fanfiction?

You're so fucking hypocritical. If you can't debate without being a giant contradiction of yourself then get the fuck out of here.


----------



## FZexia (Aug 18, 2012)

It Obito nuff said  , thats just my opinion since Tobi has the eye that Kakashi got from Obito and the one that Obito gave to Kakashi was the left eye so the other one got destroyed but it got DESTROYED so maybe Rin actually saved Obito's eye or something. Just my opinion.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> the amount fanfic you guys resort to is just



Says the guy who believes Kagami is the father of Obito based on absolutely nothing.


hahahahahahahahahahahahaha


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> thats not why i think its Kagami though
> 
> the timeline fits + no plotholes... that is all


So Tobi could also be Setsuna, Torifu, or a Hiruzen Clone.

Also, Kagami has a plothole. Uchihas can't read the stone tablet. Here's my source:



> *Plothole Number 10: Too Much Knowledge*
> It is also impossible for Obito to know so much about Rikudou Sennin, his sons, the Bijuu and the Juubi.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> If you got attacked by an elephant in broad daylight, and later your best friend says his dog was behind it, would you believe him?
> 
> Kakashi didn't break a promise to Rin. And how do you explain her apparent death?
> 
> What Escargon said.



Again lame. Comparing two eyeshapes with Elephant and Dog. Really lame.

How do you explain obito's apparent death?

Put an orange mask on konan's face with eye hole, with change of hairstyle and color. I guess we will have two same looking tobis.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Says the guy who believes Kagami is the father of Obito based on absolutely nothing.
> 
> 
> hahahahahahahahahahahahaha





ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So Tobi could also be Setsuna, Torifu, or a Hiruzen Clone.
> 
> Also, Kagami has a plothole. Uchihas can't read the stone tablet. Here's my source:



im not basing it on fanfics though

Kagami has no plotholes and his timeline fits... thats all im basing it on


----------



## Rama (Aug 18, 2012)

Well my Final prediction on Tobi's Identity is that Tobi is Black Zetsu in some way or form, crossing my fingers that I'm right.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> im not basing it on fanfics though
> 
> Kagami has no plotholes and his timeline fits... thats all im basing it on



So does Setsuna



Rama said:


> Well my Final prediction on Tobi's Identity is that Tobi is Black Zetsu in some way or form, crossing my fingers that I'm right.


used to be one of my old theories too, a genetic clone similar to black zetsu that accumulated his own personality and power


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:
			
		

> Again lame. Comparing two eyeshapes with Elephant and Dog. Really lame.


Kishimoto gives each character a different eyeshape. It's one of his main descriptors of his characters. Why would Rin's eyeshape suddenly change? We need to RECOGNIZE the face behind the mask, and what we can see of Tobi's face looks nothing like Rin. So no, eyeshape is not lame.



> How do you explain obito's apparent death?


His MS awakened and he teleported out or Madara or Zetsu saved him.



> Put an orange mask on konan's face with eye hole, with change of hairstyle and color. I guess we will have two same looking tobis.


How does that counter what Escargon and I said?


----------



## Ghost (Aug 18, 2012)

why isn't the younger son in the poll options. 

he would be far more logical option than the elder son.


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> im not basing it on fanfics though
> 
> Kagami has no plotholes and his timeline fits... thats all im basing it on


You're also saying he's Obito's father and that Obito and Kagami's father-son crisis mirrors Kakashi and Sakumo's.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> So does Setsuna



we have no info on Setsuna's timeline... nice try



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You're also saying he's Obito's father and that Obito and Kagami's father-son crisis mirrors Kakashi and Sakumo's.



not contingent on why i think Tobi = Kagami

timeline + no plotholes... thats it


----------



## Krippy (Aug 18, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think that would be a better identity for tobi,
> 
> tobi is naruto, except naruto from either the FUTURE or another dimension
> 
> ...


S/T ftw.


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

Shirosaki said:


> why isn't the younger son in the poll options.
> 
> he would be far more logical option than the elder son.


Neither of them are logical. Tobi doesn't know the names of the bijuu. And how is he still alive? Why wait so long to enact his plan?

And for the Younger Son specifically, why would Madara work with a Senju?


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Kishimoto gives each character a different eyeshape. It's one of his main descriptors of his characters. Why would Rin's eyeshape suddenly change? We need to RECOGNIZE the face behind the mask, and what we can see of Tobi's face looks nothing like Rin. So no, eyeshape is not lame.
> 
> His MS awakened and he teleported out or Madara or Zetsu saved him.
> 
> How does that counter what Escargon and I said?



I won't argue with you with eye shapes because you even might compare how the eye-ball is 10 nm bigger or how these eye-lashes are different.

Rin transplanted this sharingan into herself, awakened MS and blah blah blah, or madara met her and began mindfucking her.

That counters that you cannot tell whether tobi is a man or not.


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> we have no info on Setsuna's timeline... nice try


He was around during Nidaime's reign. And tried to carry out Madara's will. 

He opposed the Nidaime but failed.

Now, Setsuna wanted to carry out Madara's will and was seen at Madara's tomb, so maybe he figured out he wasn't dead. So he sought Madara out and became his partner. He gave the Rinnegan to Nagato and spurred Yahiko to form Akatsuki. Then he stole Obito's eye and the rest is history.

Also, Setsuna means "moment" or "instant", like Tobi's S/T?

And Setsuna was actually in the databook, unlike Kagami!

So yeah, even Setsuna has more evidence than Kagami.

Note: I don't support the Setsuna in any way, shape or form. It's a bullshit theory with no evidence, like the Kagami theory. I was just using it as an example.


----------



## Rama (Aug 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> used to be one of my old theories too, a genetic clone similar to black zetsu that accumulated his own personality and power



To tell you the truth I have no evidence to support my guess, just suspicion. Black Zetsu is still a big mistery in the manga and conveniently he was defeated quite easily without knowing anything about him, so either Kishi just discarded the character or hes purposely taking the spotlight out of him to set up a good reveal if indeed he was Tobi in some way. Thats my take on it anyway.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He was around during Nidaime's reign. And tried to carry out Madara's will.
> 
> He opposed the Nidaime but failed.
> 
> ...



the reason why i dont have to come up with fanfics is because there are no plotholes with Kagami.... Obito has actual plotholes


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> I won't argue with you with eye shapes because you even might compare how the eye-ball is 10 nm bigger or how these eye-lashes are different.


You don't get it. I just explained the purpose of eyeshape, but you're taking it too far. What, so Kishi's gonna make Tobi someone who he doesn't look anything like but it doesn't matter cuz we'll still recognize that person's face even though it somehow looks completely different from what it used to!!!!1111!!!!



> Rin transplanted this sharingan into herself, awakened MS and blah blah blah, or madara met her and began mindfucking her.


How did she get MS? And what real motive did she have?



> That counters that you cannot tell whether tobi is a man or not.


So having a mask on effects how the rest of your body is?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

Rama said:


> To tell you the truth I have no evidence to support my guess, just suspicion. Black Zetsu is still a big mistery in the manga and conveniently he was defeated quite easily without knowing anything about him, so either Kishi just discarded the character or hes purposely taking the spotlight out of him to set up a good reveal if indeed he was Tobi in some way. Thats my take on it anyway.



well i used to have some speeculative evidence but that was eventualy overwritten with the last couple years worth of new events.



jacamo said:


> the reason why i dont have to come up with fanfics is because there are no plotholes with Kagami.... Obito has actual plotholes



saying kagami is obito's father is by definition a fanfic. (yup you have logic of a 5 year old brain dead child)

Setsuna has just as likely chance of being Tobi as Kagami, you just say you don't know who he is same way other regular fan doesn't know who kagami is.


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

jacamo said:


> the reason why i dont have to come up with fanfics is because there are no plotholes with Kagami.... Obito has actual plotholes


Which we've refuted.

Besides, having no plotholes doesn't make him a plausible Tobi candidate. Maybe Tobi is Torifu or Setsuna. They don't have "plotholes" either.

And we know next to nothing about Kagami's character. So how do you know that there isn't something about him and the events in his life that contradict him being Tobi?


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> saying kagami is obito's father is by definition a fanfic. (yup you have logic of a 5 year old brain dead child)
> 
> Setsuna has just as likely chance of being Tobi as Kagami, you just say you don't know who he is same way other regular fan doesn't know who kagami is.



pay attention... i already said that fanfic has *nothing *to do with why i think Tobi = Kagami... i dont need that fanfic to explain my theory

but you guys *need *Obito fanfics to explain the plotholes

see the difference?



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Which we've refuted.



with fanfics... so no you havent


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

Setsuna is OBito's father! 

WHOAMI

I'm Jacamo

Sorry Setsuna is more plausible than Kagami. He has an extensive entry in databook, even personality analyzed. 
Kagami has 1 line in the entire manga ever.

The fact that you don't know who setsuna is means the regular fan will be like 'wtf'.

Just because you have dived your head into Kagami is the reason you know who he is. But regular fan will still be like 'wtf'



jacamo said:


> p
> 
> with fanfics... so no you havent



So you're saying, Kishi is NOT allowed to put stuff in the manga that fill in gaps of our knowledge


----------



## Yuna (Aug 18, 2012)

Uchiha Q said:


> I think that would be a better identity for tobi,
> 
> tobi is naruto, except naruto from either the FUTURE or another dimension
> 
> ...


Did you watch "Road to Ninja" and then conflate that with the manga?


----------



## Awesome (Aug 18, 2012)

If all the holes were filled in there wouldn't be any mystery. Are people really expecting the Obito theory to be flawless the second the mask comes off and it's revealed to be Obito?

Writers don't provide you all the information. They provide you necessary information to piece together and leave holes in the information to make you second guess yourself.


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So Tobi could also be Setsuna, Torifu, or a Hiruzen Clone.
> 
> Also, Kagami has a plothole. Uchihas can't read the stone tablet. Here's my source:



Ms can read part of the stone tablet, and Rinnegan Madara could have simply told kagami the rest.
Unfortunately hiruzen is sealed, Tobi can't be his clone


----------



## Awesome (Aug 18, 2012)

To those that say Kagami has no holes: 

1. Why would he just keep Madara's spare Rinnegan? (if Nagato supposedly got them transplanted)
2. Why was he at the battle of Kannabi Bridge? How the hell did he get Obito's sharingan?
3. Why does he have a grudge against the Uchiha clan?
4. Why does he want world peace?

All of that has to be explained after he is revealed. Why can't the same "holes" that the Obito theories have be explained after he is revealed? You act like the holes you pointed out were impossible to explain. The author can surely explain them.


----------



## Talis (Aug 18, 2012)

Awesome said:


> If all the wholes were filled in there wouldn't be any mystery. Are people really expecting the Obito theory to be flawless the second the mask comes off and it's revealed to be Obito?
> 
> Writers don't provide you all the information. They provide you necessary information to piece together and leave holes in the information to make you second guess yourself.


I dont get it, were you not against Tobito a few days ago?


----------



## Awesome (Aug 18, 2012)

Are you talking about my "Tobi is not Obito" thread 



I would reread that if I were you.


----------



## Talis (Aug 18, 2012)

Easley said:


> Maybe, but I'm mostly referring to Tobi's origin. Izuna fits seamlessly into the timeline and can assume a new identity without too many problems. Obito needs to survive the rocks, be rebuilt by Zetsu, and then somehow improve rapidly in order to attack Konoha.
> 
> I'm not saying Kishi can't explain all this, but it won't be easy.


But the thing is we mostly saw already Tobi being made out of Zetsu, his eyes if Obito's, its actually good as 99.99% confirmed that it is Obito's body at least since his face is also 50 scarred 50 non scarred, and that odd Madara (Obito) script.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 18, 2012)

You Tobito believers;

You always rejected my Danzo theory only because once you saw in the manga that Tobi thought or had behaviors as if he doesn't know who Danzo was. So, this made you think that Tobi cannot be Danzo or his clone. You were so sure about that.

Now, I'll try to give you some comparaisons about two theories.

First, lets begin with the biggest hole in my Danzo theory:

- 





> - Tobi cannot be Danzo or his clone because he seemed like he doesn't know Danzo when Sasuke fought  Danzo.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...




Next we have timeline issue,

- 





> Danzo completly fits all timeline questions...
> 
> Look, he has right eye bandaged when Akatsuki has been found.
> 
> ...




Finally, the last one,

Reasons behind the acts,

- 





> Why would Obito kills his own parents or why would he hate especially Uchiha clan?
> 
> There is no reason, but Danzo doesn't need reason, he's just pure villain



You should accept that If Danzo can't be the one who controls Obito's body, Obito as well can't be the one who controls his own body....


----------



## Awesome (Aug 18, 2012)

If Tobi is Danzou I will sacrifice my left nut to Kishi.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 18, 2012)

Hih hih hiih you will soon


----------



## jacamo (Aug 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Setsuna is OBito's father!
> 
> WHOAMI
> 
> ...



this is what you always resort to... insults



Awesome said:


> To those that say Kagami has no holes:
> 
> 1. Why would he just keep Madara's spare Rinnegan? (if Nagato supposedly got them transplanted)
> 2. Why was he at the battle of Kannabi Bridge? How the hell did he get Obito's sharingan?
> ...



let me be clear... i only think Tobi is Kagami because the timeline fits like a perfect pair of jeans and that there are no plotholes

those questions are not plotholes

what Tobi said to Kushina is a plothole

Nagato/Yahiko being 10 years older than Obito is a plothole

the fact that Tobi took over Kiri and transformed it into the Bloody Mist when Zabuza/Kakashi/Obito were all about 9 years old... is a frikin plothole


if its just Obito's eye? good, no plothole


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## Easley (Aug 18, 2012)

loool3 said:


> But the thing is we mostly saw already Tobi being made out of Zetsu, his eyes if Obito's, its actually good as 99.99% confirmed that it is Obito's body at least since his face is also 50 scarred 50 non scarred, and that odd Madara (Obito) script.


There's some physical aspects that point to Obito, I won't deny that, but I'm more interested in how he became 'Tobi' and his radical character change. A third party must be involved - probably Madara. He would have no reason to turn his back on Konoha unless brainwashed first. If we knew when Rin died that might help clear things up, but she's a bigger mystery than Tobi right now.


----------



## Talis (Aug 18, 2012)

Easley said:


> There's some physical aspects that point to Obito, I won't deny that, but I'm more interested in how he became 'Tobi' and his radical character change. A third party must be involved - probably Madara. He would have no reason to turn his back on Konoha unless brainwashed first. If we knew when Rin died that might help clear things up, but she's a bigger mystery than Tobi right now.


Uchiha's are destined for hatred, it shouldn't be that much of a deal to see him going psycho after being rescue'd.


----------



## Easley (Aug 18, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Uchiha's are destined for hatred, it shouldn't be that much of a deal to see him going psycho after being rescue'd.


Yes, but how fast does the "hatred" take hold? And why wouldn't Obito return to Konoha as soon as possible? Maybe he was so badly injured he had to recover for months, and was deceived by whoever found him. Well, it's another thing Kishi needs to explain, all we can do is speculate.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 18, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> Just add an orange mask with an eye-hole on the left and color the hair black and cut them spiky on konan.
> There, you have your tobi.



Im being the victim of trolling


----------



## Talis (Aug 18, 2012)

Easley said:


> Yes, but how fast does the "hatred" take hold? And why wouldn't Obito return to Konoha as soon as possible? Maybe he was so badly injured he had to recover for months, and was deceived by whoever found him. Well, it's another thing Kishi needs to explain, all we can do is speculate.


I dont know, but i guess he was back when everyone close to him died probably his parents too.
Wait a second, didnt Kagami die in a war too?


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

Udontard4ever said:


> Ms can read part of the stone tablet, and Rinnegan Madara could have simply told kagami the rest.
> Unfortunately hiruzen is sealed, Tobi can't be his clone


LOOOOOOOOL, it was just a joke!

lolhiruzen



jacamo said:


> let me be clear... i only think Tobi is Kagami because the timeline fits like a perfect pair of jeans and that there are no plotholes


It does for Setsuna too.



> those questions are not plotholes


According to your logic, they should be.


> Nagato/Yahiko being 10 years older than Obito is a plothole


How is that a plothole. Oh, because Tobi GAVE Nagato the rinnegan. All of Tobi's words when posing as Madara are completely credible. But tobi clearly wasn't even posing as Madara when he fought Konan, even though Konan called him Madara throughout the fight and Tobi later said "*I am Uchiha Madara!*, the man who stole the power of Hashirama Senju! Two of the six paths are now one being!"



> the fact that Tobi took over Kiri and transformed it into the Bloody Mist when Zabuza/Kakashi/Obito were all about 9 years old... is a frikin plothole


So, Madara couldn't have started it and then switched out with Obito?

This shit isn't plotholes. Just questions like the Kagami ones. Seriously, you say Obito couldn't have had a personality change, when he actually has reasons to, but Kagami has no known reason to and you don't call it a plothole.

Get the fuck out of here. We don't need hypocrites like you fucking up debates.



Easley said:


> There's some physical aspects that point to Obito, I won't deny that, but I'm more interested in how he became 'Tobi' and his radical character change. A third party must be involved - probably Madara. He would have no reason to turn his back on Konoha unless brainwashed first. If we knew when Rin died that might help clear things up, but she's a bigger mystery than Tobi right now.


Glad to see you're warming up to the theory!


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 18, 2012)

Tobito Land - Also known as FANFIC CENTRAL


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 18, 2012)

Not fanfic central.  I can't say I'm completely sold on it, but it's plausible as long as Kishimoto gives us the proper explanations.  There are multiple plausible theories out there, and we won't know for sure until the big reveal.  

There is one thing that really bugs me with the Obito/Obito's body theories, and that is the fact that Tobi keeps his sharingan on at all times, which suggests that he might not be Uchiha at all.  That is one of the reasons why I also think that the elder son of the sage is a viable candidate.  He did not have a sharingan, and so would need an implant in order to have one.  Would also mean that he wasn't lying when he said he gave Nagato the rinnegan, because he did have them originally.


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Tobito Land - Also known as FANFIC CENTRAL


You do realize that every theory has unknown things about it that we can only currently explain with "fanfics", so by your logic, ever single Tobi theory is FANFIC CENTRAL. If you can't contribute anything to the discussion then don't post. It's not that hard to comprehend.



darkprinc979 said:


> Not fanfic central.  I can't say I'm completely sold on it, but it's plausible as long as Kishimoto gives us the proper explanations.  There are multiple plausible theories out there, and we won't know for sure until the big reveal.
> 
> There is one thing that really bugs me with the Obito/Obito's body theories, and that is the fact that Tobi keeps his sharingan on at all times, which suggests that he might not be Uchiha at all.  That is one of the reasons why I also think that the elder son of the sage is a viable candidate.  He did not have a sharingan, and so would need an implant in order to have one.  Would also mean that he wasn't lying when he said he gave Nagato the rinnegan, because he did have them originally.


The Elder Son never had the Rinnegan. And Tobi doesn't even know the names of the bijuu.

And Itachi had his sharingan on 24/7.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 18, 2012)

The Elder Son never had the Rinnegan. That would make Madara the 3rd Sage, Nagato the 4th, and Tobi the 5th.

It was some form of doujutsu though. Could have been his MS.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 18, 2012)

Hmm...but don't all the people he's called sages include both Uchiha and Senju (Uzumaki in Nagato's case as they're supposed to be related) dna?  Sure, on the tablet it looks more like a swirl than concentric circles, but mangekyou eyes are all based on some form of kaleidoscope, and afaik, a swirl doesn't go on a kaleidoscope.  My thinking has always been that it was just simpler to carve a swirl than make a bunch of different circles.

Also, as for the elder son not knowing the names, it's very likely that he didn't care to learn them, as they were just tools of power to him.  Alternatively, if he's lived that long, he could have forgotten them all.


----------



## Shaz (Aug 18, 2012)

Too long have I watched foolish sparring.



Thebaxman said:


> Tobito Land - Also known as FANFIC CENTRAL



Lolol, what do you believe in, future Sasuke? 




darkprinc979 said:


> Not fanfic central.  I can't say I'm completely sold on it, but it's plausible as long as Kishimoto gives us the proper explanations.  There are multiple plausible theories out there, and we won't know for sure until the big reveal.
> 
> There is one thing that really bugs me with the Obito/Obito's body theories, and that is the fact that *Tobi keeps his sharingan on at all times, which suggests that he might not be Uchiha at all*.  That is one of the reasons why I also think that the elder son of the sage is a viable candidate.  He did not have a sharingan, and so would need an implant in order to have one.  Would also mean that he wasn't lying when he said he gave Nagato the rinnegan, because he did have them originally.




Even Kakashi, a non Uchiha can't use his eyes constantly, therefore he covers it with his headband when not in use, EDIT: Besides, Tobi has stronger control than Kakashi as he's able to make use of his Sharingan much better than Kakashi can without much effort (harnessing the full power of his eyes), hinting that he is an Uchiha, a powerful one at that. The Elder son inherited the Sage's eyes, therefore he had the eyes which were least diluted (as the Sharingan today presumably), why would he need to implant a lesser one? Being the first ancestor of the Uchiha clan.​


----------



## Thebaxman (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You do realize that every theory has unknown things about it that we can only currently explain with "fanfics", so by your logic, ever single Tobi theory is FANFIC CENTRAL. If you can't contribute anything to the discussion then don't post. It's not that hard to comprehend



Hey! It's ObitoUchiha111, the same guy who told me that the Tobito theory is the only non-fanfic theory. Are you finally starting to doubt your bullshit?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Hmm...but don't all the people he's called sages include both Uchiha and Senju (Uzumaki in Nagato's case as they're supposed to be related) dna?  Sure, on the tablet it looks more like a swirl than concentric circles, but mangekyou eyes are all based on some form of kaleidoscope, and afaik, a swirl doesn't go on a kaleidoscope.  My thinking has always been that it was just simpler to carve a swirl than make a bunch of different circles.
> 
> Also, as for the elder son not knowing the names, it's very likely that he didn't care to learn them, as they were just tools of power to him.  Alternatively, if he's lived that long, he could have forgotten them all.



No, the only people
That have been labeled rikudous are those that own a rinnegan and use it. Thus having access of the abilities of the 6(7) paths.


----------



## Shaz (Aug 18, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Hmm...but don't all the people he's called sages include both Uchiha and Senju (Uzumaki in Nagato's case as they're supposed to be related) dna?  Sure, on the tablet it looks more like a swirl than concentric circles, but mangekyou eyes are all based on some form of kaleidoscope, and afaik, a swirl doesn't go on a kaleidoscope.  My thinking has always been that it was just simpler to carve a swirl than make a bunch of different circles.
> 
> Also, as for the elder son not knowing the names, it's very likely that he didn't care to learn them, as they were just tools of power to him.  Alternatively, if he's lived that long, he could have forgotten them all.




It is quite likely that the Elder Son's eyes are simply the form which was diluted over the ages into the Uchiha clan, therefore the Rinnegan can also decipher information from the tablet, and all of it, as it seems.

I don't see a reason why the Elder Son would need to know the names, as his reasons were selfish, therefore he would only use such power in the wrong way. Just because they were the Sages sons, doesn't mean they would know the names.​


----------



## Shaz (Aug 18, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Hey! It's ObitoUchiha111, the same guy who told me that the Tobito theory is the only non-fanfic theory. Are you finally starting to doubt your bullshit?




Hey noob, why not grow a pair and tell me your Z0MG-amazing theory, since it would seem you think you know it all. I'll point out your stupidity free of charge.​


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Hmm...but don't all the people he's called sages include both Uchiha and Senju (Uzumaki in Nagato's case as they're supposed to be related) dna?  Sure, on the tablet it looks more like a swirl than concentric circles, but mangekyou eyes are all based on some form of kaleidoscope, and afaik, a swirl doesn't go on a kaleidoscope.  My thinking has always been that it was just simpler to carve a swirl than make a bunch of different circles.





> Also, as for the elder son not knowing the names, it's very likely that he didn't care to learn them, as they were just tools of power to him.


Sure, but he should have at least known that they _had]_ names, even if he didn't know what they were. 





> Alternatively, if he's lived that long, he could have forgotten them all.


But he still should have known that they HAD names at all, right?

besides, why wait so long to enact or even come up with his plan? If he didn't have some sort of evil plan until recently, why bother staying alive until then? Which brings me to my next point: How would the Elder Son still be alive?


----------



## Talis (Aug 18, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Hey noob, why not grow a pair and tell me your Z0MG-amazing theory, since it would seem you think you know it all. I'll point out your stupidity free of charge.​


He believes in his incredible Izuna theory, the guy bullshitting about fanfics, yet Izuna is confirmed dead like 1000x already.


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Hey! It's ObitoUchiha111, the same guy who told me that the Tobito theory is the only non-fanfic theory. Are you finally starting to doubt your bullshit?


I meant only non-fanfic theory as in there was actually many things to suggest it in the manga, thus it's not a fanfic. No other Tobi suspect has even been hinted at.

_~snip~ -*SaiST*_


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

Scizor said:


> Why can't you guys discuss Tobi's identity in a civil way?


Implying Tobi's identity is an under control topic.





MissinqNin said:


> This is a question of mine which can be quotes so many times in many places, but seems impossible seeing all this, as bashing is the only form these species know.


And you weren't just bashing Thebaxman?


----------



## Shaz (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> And you weren't just bashing Thebaxman?




Some people need to taste their own medicine in higher quantities.


----------



## Scizor (Aug 18, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> This is a question of mine which can be quoted from many places, but seems impossible seeing all this, as bashing is the only form these species know.



That's just not true: flaming leads to more flaming.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Implying Tobi's identity is an under control topic.



Well it should be.



MissinqNin said:


> Some people need to taste their own medicine in higher quantities.



Flaming is never the answer: when people flame you, you should remain civil for the sake of the discussion.


----------



## Shaz (Aug 18, 2012)

Scizor said:


> Flaming is never the answer: when people flame you, you should remain civil for the sake of the discussion.




Yeah, like I once thought. I've learnt to do both as it seems necessary to be heard with some. Treat others as you wish to be treated.


----------



## Scizor (Aug 18, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> Yeah, like I once thought. I've learnt to do both as it seems necessary to be heard with some. Treat others as you wish to be treated.



You should go back to what you thought before as flaming and overal negativity takes away from the actual discussion. Treat everyone's theory/theories with the same respect you treat your own and we could have a civil and fun discussion in this thread.

Please do note that with 'you' I don't specifically mean you (MissinqNin), but everyone who has chipped in with negativity in this thread.

This subject is quite exciting at the moment, as the reveal is certainly happening soon, but some here take away from the carefree anticipation.


----------



## Shaz (Aug 18, 2012)

Scizor said:


> You should go back to what you thought before as flaming and overal negativity takes away from the actual discussion. Treat everyone's theory/theories with the same respect you treat your own and we could have a civil and fun discussion in this thread.
> 
> Please do note that with 'you' I don't specifically mean you (MissinqNin), but everyone who has chipped in with negativity in this thread.
> 
> This subject is quite exciting at the moment, as the reveal is certainly happening soon, but some here take away from the carefree anticipation.




You can advance search the responses I got to many of my posts in here, regardless of my posts which were similar to yours in return. People who post appropriately should be taken seriously, those who don't should just be ignored, as it seems it'll never stop, until the mask is dropped.

At least there are some who use their brain over there fan-boying/girling heart, and are willing to accept opinions.


----------



## Scizor (Aug 18, 2012)

MissinqNin said:


> You can advance search the responses I got to many of my posts in here, regardless of my posts which were similar to yours in return. People who post appropriately should be taken seriously, those who don't should just be ignored, as it seems it'll never stop, until the mask is dropped.
> 
> At least there are some who use their brain over there fan-boying/girling heart, and are willing to accept opinions.



Ignoring is indeed an option, but I saw you flaming someone and flaming cannot be justified.

Let's all just keep it civil.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

I'm an asshole, im gonna mock people regardless if they refuse to listen to reason and logic


----------



## Scizor (Aug 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I'm an asshole, im gonna mock people regardless if they refuse to listen to reason and logic



Recognizing your own flaws is the first step towards righteousness.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

Scizor said:


> Recognizing your own flaws is the first step towards righteousness.



Search my posts, lol I'm not going to change. I can't accept people who are Adament about absolutes. Idc if you agree with the tobito theory or Kagami or izuna theory. But to say It is impossible is retarded especially when the author can do whatever the fuck he wants. Who expected the 10 tails.


----------



## Scizor (Aug 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Search my posts, lol I'm not going to change. I can't accept people who are Adament about absolutes. Idc if you agree with the tobito theory or Kagami or izuna theory. But to say It is impossible is retarded especially when the author can do whatever the fuck he wants. Who expected the 10 tails.



So your point is that you're too stubborn to make this discussion a pleasant experience?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 18, 2012)

I think it's more unpleasant to have idiots talking without being called on it because unsuspecting readers wiLl be misinformed and use the same rants giving a cycle of idiocy.


----------



## Scizor (Aug 18, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I think it's more unpleasant to have idiots talking without being called on it because unsuspecting readers wiLl be misinformed and use the same rants giving a cycle of idiocy.



I have a hard time believing wanting to keep a circle of negativity regarding a discussion that would otherwise be fun isn't at least just as silly as what you describe.


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

Scizor said:
			
		

> That 'I am right and you are wrong' mentality is what I am talking about when I'm referring to negativity. All sides should drop that mentality and discuss Tobi's identity in a civil manner.


When did I display that in that post? You don't need to be a fucking genius to know that certain people on here are complete hypocrites. I'm not saying because of who they do and don't think Tobi is, but because of the logic they use to support and disprove theories.


----------



## Scizor (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> When did I display that in that post? You don't need to be a fucking genius to know that certain people on here are complete hypocrites. I'm not saying because of who they do and don't think Tobi is, but because of the logic they use to support and disprove theories.



You are doing the exact same thing right now: "their logic is flawed and mine isn't."

At least you're implying that.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 18, 2012)

So, guys... vB has this handy ignore function you're more than welcome to use. Y'know, if you feel the only alternative is to start attacking personally.

I believe I've said this earlier on, but keep it clean, please.


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

Scizor said:
			
		

> You are doing exactly the same thing right now.


I'm not even sure what you mean by that. Anyway, at this point, you're only adding to all the negativity. So, I suggest you stop. I'm not replying to you anymore.


			
				SaiST said:
			
		

> So, guys... vB has this handy ignore function you're more than welcome to use. Y'know, if you feel the only alternative is to start attacking personally.
> 
> I believe I've said this earlier on, but keep it clean, please.


Awww...

Alright...

*Obeys all powerful mod.*


----------



## Scizor (Aug 18, 2012)

SaiST said:


> So, guys... vB has this handy ignore function you're more than welcome to use. Y'know, if you feel the only alternative is to start attacking personally.
> 
> I believe I've said this earlier on, but keep it clean, please.



I'm just trying to make a point that seems to correspond with yours.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm not even sure what you mean by that. Anyway, at this point, you're only adding to all the negativity.



I'm not, but feel free to stop responding to me/use the ignore function SaiST mentioned.


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

Anyways, back on topic:



Are those SCARS I see? The same ones Tobi has?:ho


----------



## Awesome (Aug 18, 2012)

Can't see the picture. 

That poster speaking of the Danzou theory really makes me want to believe Tobi is Danzou. It's near impossible at this point, but before Tobi actually met Danzou that was probably my favorite crack theory 

It made a whole lot more sense than any other theory before the Kage summit arc. Well, besides Tobi being Madara


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

Scizor said:
			
		

> You are doing the exact same thing right now: "their logic is flawed and mine isn't."
> 
> At least you're implying that.


Okay, just one more thing. I never implied that. I said  that certain people on here are being hypocrites by the LITERAL DEFINITION OF IT. There's no denying that logic. I didn't say "Ha ha! I'm right and you're wrong!" I just said that they were being hypocritical, which they were.

Just wanted to clear that up.


----------



## Scizor (Aug 18, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Okay, just one more thing. I never implied that. I said  that certain people on here are being hypocrites by the LITERAL DEFINITION OF IT. There's no denying that logic. I didn't say "Ha ha! i'm right and you're wrong!" I just said that they were being hypocritical, which they were.
> 
> Just wanted to clear that up.



Fair enough. Please do explain how they are hypocritical then, though (but let's take it to PMs/VMs).


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Can't see the picture.


It's chapter 243 when Obito's saying "I'm about to die but I'll be your eye, and we'll see the future together."



> That poster speaking of the Danzou theory really makes me want to believe Tobi is Danzou.


Not you too!


> It's near impossible at this point, but before Tobi actually met Danzou that was probably my favorite crack theory


Lol.



> It made a whole lot more sense than any other theory before the Kage summit arc. Well, besides Tobi being Madara


Tobi being Danzo never made sense, lol.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 18, 2012)

Same hair 
Had part in the Uchiha massacre
Was around near Nagato's time

It was close enough


----------



## NW (Aug 18, 2012)

But his eyeshape was completely different. And Danzo's wrinkles looked completely different from Tobi's "wrinkles". Plus, their hair style was a little different. And Tobi and Danzo were shown to be at completely different places at the same time.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 18, 2012)

Hence "crack" theory


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 18, 2012)

What exactly is the baseline you use for determining someone's eye shape?  After all, their eyes change quite a bit depending on what emotion they're exhibiting at the moment.  From what I've seen, Obito's eyes were always large and open, while Tobi's eyes are usually more narrow and angled.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You don't get it. I just explained the purpose of eyeshape, but you're taking it too far. What, so Kishi's gonna make Tobi someone who he doesn't look anything like but it doesn't matter cuz we'll still recognize that person's face even though it somehow looks completely different from what it used to!!!!1111!!!!


Hah!
Completely different?? You call just a little change in the shape of the eye completely different??
If you compare the sasuke pre shippudden and shippuuden versions, you will notice lot of change in eye shapes here and there, which we might account into errors about which the targeted audience definitely wouldn't give a rat's arse about. 


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> How did she get MS? And what real motive did she have?


Similarly how kakashi got his MS?
She witnessed death of her best friend and more important people in the war, and after seing the war, she knew that kakashi is just consoling himself by making lame promisses in front of people's graves and also madara began mindfucking her that you can avoid these wars and many many more deaths if you join me.


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So having a mask on effects how the rest of your body is?


OMG?! You mad bro?
Didn't I just tell you to imagine putting the mask on konan with change of hair style and color and then compare to tobi??
And then tell me what difference you find in both of their bodies??


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 19, 2012)

I don't think he's an Uchiha because I think he stole the eye from somewhere. I think all stolen Uchiha eyes, except for those with Uchiha blood lines, are limited in a certain way. Which to me explains why he isn't able to summon Susanoo as only those with true uchiha blood are able to. Not only these reasons but Tobi seems to be an expert in eye surgery with Sasuke taking Itachi's eyes and taking Nagato's rinnegan so it seems quite reasonable that he stole the eye at some point. 

As to where he stole it from, I'm not sure. I'm scanning my brain at the moment for mentioned legendary characters within the manga at some point. 

For some strange reason I keep thinking that maybe it's someone related in someway to Danzou.

edit: I see by looking back on posts, I am not the only one.


----------



## HakuGaara (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> The big reveal will be that Tobi is some guy who was in 2 panels? Anyone who honestly believes this shit doesn't understand storytelling at all.



Why not? The AL turned out to be Pain/Nagato, somebody that wasn't featured at all until he and Konan were revealed. People also speculated that he was a hero gone bad (Minato) and look were that went.

If anything Tobito is a much worse reveal because it would hardly be surprising at this point. It would be anti-climatic if anything.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Using Obito's body doesn't make him Obito.



Now you're getting it! I'm so proud of you! 



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Can't find the post so won't bother explaining.



That's OK. I know you don't have a counter-point because you would have mentioned it in your reply if you did.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> "Kakashi, you always open your mouth too easily. It's no wonder you've lived a life of regret."



Good job posting an actual fact for the first time during our debate! Unfortunately 'life of regret' is pretty vague and can reference pretty much anything.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> "No wish can ever come true in this world."



This, again, could apply to almost anything



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> "Hm, entrusted? But Naruto... if you failed with what the Fourth and Jiraiya entrusted you with, I wonder what they would think of you. If you failed with what they entrusted you with... how would you feel about yourself? Even if you delay the problem by using words like "hope", the empty reality will just be there waiting. Both the ones who entrusted and the ones who were entrusted with... will both be empty."



He's talking to Naruto, not Kakashi.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> S, you're saying he'd want people to know who he is?



No, he simply wouldn't care. If all Tobi is is just Obito then there would be no reason to go to such great lengths to hide his face. After all, who other than Kakashi is going to give a shit?



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Obito's the only Tobi candidate anyone would actually care about.



Again, AL=Nagato. I thought you 'studied Kishimoto's writing style'?

As long as the reveal means something to *other* characters in the manga (ex:Nagato+Yahiko to Jiraiya) then Kishimoto doesn't care if we would actually care about the reveal or not.

And I couldn't possibly care less about Obito and would therefore be hugely disappointed if Tobito was revealed (because of the lack of excitement and because it wouldn't make any sense). The only possible worse candidate would be Inari.  




ObitoUchiha111 said:


> They didn't? That's new to me. They obviously did if you look at the responses to Kakashi Gaiden. Stop making shit up.



Sources please.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Prove to me that Madara died before Obito was born.



Because it's obvious? If Madara was still alive I doubt Obito would have been gloating about being part of the Uchiha clan. Plus it's logical to assume that someone dies after a certain amount of time passes. Since its illogical to assume someone stayed alive far longer than normal, it would actually be up to *you* to prove that he didn't die before Obito was born.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I don't see why. With the proper motivation and mindfucking he could have become like that. Especially if Rin's death made him overly impatient to hold out on attacking Konoha to get revenge, thus "Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this brief moment?!"



Mindfucking? You can't support your assumptions with *more* assumptions. Who would mindfuck him and why would they even care? You must really really really *REALLY* want Tobi to be Obito if you're reaching so hard. 



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Ya never know.



"You never know' doesn't make it any more believable.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi never had the Rinnegan...



All the more suspicious that he knows what he does if he's Obito. *Clearly*, he's not Obito.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I don't need to convince myself. Obito fits Kishi's writing style. If you don't bother to ask why or if you keep on saying it doesn't. then that's your problem.



I've already pointed out numerous times how you blatantly ignore established Kishi writing. And I don't need to ask you because A: I already called your bluff, and B: You would have already posted it without me having to ask.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Cuz he al know Oro called himself nobody when he switched bodies.



Oro isn't Tobi. They're two different characters with two different philosophies and world views. Just because they both 'inhabit' bodies doesn't mean they *have* to think the same way. Please don't insult Orochimaru.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Again, you don't get it. It's too much to bother explaining.



I get that you don't understand established plot devices and that you can't admit that you're wrong.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> obviously they know each other, but I don't see how that's an obstacle for the Tobito theory.



Because it's too much of an assumption that Madara lived far past his allotted time span. You can't support theories with assumptions. You're *assuming* Obito got brainwashed. You're *assuming* that Madara lived long *long* past his life span.

I've provided you evidence that Tobi can't be Obito. You've given me nothing in return except assumptions.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> I don't think he's an Uchiha because I think he stole the eye from somewhere. I think all stolen Uchiha eyes, except for those with Uchiha blood lines, are limited in a certain way. Which to me explains why he isn't able to summon Susanoo as only those with true uchiha blood are able to. Not only these reasons but Tobi seems to be an expert in eye surgery with Sasuke taking Itachi's eyes and taking Nagato's rinnegan so it seems quite reasonable that he stole the eye at some point.
> 
> As to where he stole it from, I'm not sure. I'm scanning my brain at the moment for mentioned legendary characters within the manga at some point.
> 
> ...


Exactly!!
Till now we have only seen tobi using sharingan techniques which can be used by non uchiha blood as well.
Izanagi by danzo and specialised version of kamui by kakashi.
Lol, we haven't even seen tobi using a fire style technique!
So tell me tobito theorists, why isn't obito already using susanoo and ametaratsu and tsukuyomi to finish this war already??
I mean he could have easily avoided those explosions from konan by using susanoo intead of sacrificing his eye??


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

Yea Tobi hasn't used a fire technique. He did use a secret Uchiha technique, though. I would say that's +1 for Tobi.

1. Tobi can't use Susanoo. He has a locked Rinnegan, therefore cannot use Susanoo. He needs MS in both eyes. That Rinnegan eye is also the one for amaterasu, so he can't use that. 
2. He can obviously use Tsukiyomi. If he couldn't, wouldn't the moon's eye plan be... well.. useless?

The real reason he hasn't used Tsukiyomi yet is because of plot-kai. The MS would give away his character.

These are constants for all theories. For everyone. This isn't mutually exclusive to any theory, these are more or less facts.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Yea Tobi hasn't used a fire technique. He did use a secret Uchiha technique, though. I would say that's +1 for Tobi.


You still don't know if its an exclusive uchiha technique. Not a fact but pure assumption.



Awesome said:


> 1. Tobi can't use Susanoo. He has a locked Rinnegan, therefore cannot use Susanoo. He needs MS in both eyes. That Rinnegan eye is also the one for amaterasu, so he can't use that.


Why didn't he use susanoo when he had both sharingan's when fighting against konan?? I guess susanoo was a better option at any give time of any given day than sacrificing your eye (which he regards with great importance)! 


Awesome said:


> 2. He can obviously use Tsukiyomi. If he couldn't, wouldn't the moon's eye plan be... well.. useless?


Neither have we seen him using tsukuyomi in past and neither do we know how the infinite tsukuyomi exactly works. again an assumption.


Awesome said:


> The real reason he hasn't used Tsukiyomi yet is because of plot-kai. The MS would give away his character.


We never saw his use of MS when he claimed himself to madara. How would that have given away his character?


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> You still don't know if its an exclusive uchiha technique. Not a fact but pure assumption.



It is assumption. I was refuting your "assumption" that he hasn't shown any fire techniques and therefore has a lesser chance of being Uchiha. My statement of him using a secret Uchiha technique is worth more points to him being Uchiha than a fire technique. 



> Why didn't he use susanoo when he had both sharingan's when fighting against konan?? I guess susanoo was a better option at any give time of any given day than sacrificing your eye (which he regards with great importance)!


I already stated that he needed MS in both eyes. He most likely didn't have MS in that eye considering he has a ton of stored sharingan. If he's Obito - he didn't have a second sharingan to begin with, and therefore doesn't have MS in it and can't use Suasnoo. If he's some random non - uchiha without MS: His plan already failed because he doesn't have Tsukiyomi. If he's Kagami / Setsuna / Izuna - he probably already wasted an eye on Izanagi.



> Neither have we seen him using tsukuyomi in past and neither do we know how the infinite tsukuyomi exactly works. again an assumption.


If he used Tsukiyomi he would have to activage MS. Each MS is unique to the individual, and thus, would give his character away. If it was a completely different MS there would be no mystery as to who he is as we would already know he's not any known character.

And just... giogio at the last statement.  The names in the fucking title. What if I were to tell you Final Susanoo ISN'T ACTUALLY SUSANOO? Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?



> We never saw his use of MS when he claimed himself to madara. How would that have given away his character?


Already refuted that in the last statement.

I don't even know what argument you have. You're not making much sense. I'm literally defending every Tobi theory right now.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 19, 2012)

So Tobis wrinkles are scars some says.

Is it the same with Mifune?

1337


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> It is assumption. I was refuting your "assumption" that he hasn't shown any fire techniques and therefore has a lesser chance of being Uchiha. My statement of him using a secret Uchiha technique is worth more points to him being Uchiha than a fire technique.


Mine is not an assumption that he has not used any fire technique. Every so called conflict of tobi is shown in manga, and there is not a single fire technique being used, where as it is a primary trait of an uchiha to use/have fire element chakra. Also it has been shown that tobi has more of an earth element, which is rarely found among uchihas. This would be really uncommon for obito wouldn't it be?
Besides going by your statement, kakashi using an MS would make him an uchiha ancestor/predecessor then.  


Awesome said:


> I already stated that he needed MS in both eyes. He most likely didn't have MS in that eye considering he has a ton of stored sharingan. If he's Obito - he didn't have a second sharingan to begin with, and therefore doesn't have MS in it and can't use Suasnoo. If he's some random non - uchiha without MS: His plan already failed because he doesn't have Tsukiyomi. If he's Kagami / Setsuna / Izuna - he probably already wasted an eye on Izanagi.



Wow, so you tobito fans believe that obito can achieve a MS (for unkown reason) just to come out of crushing boulders in one eye, but cannot achieve another MS in like 20 years? And as tobi really thinks of far future, wouldnt he consider activating both MS to really have the ultimate advantage in forthcoming war? Besides my arguement is not who tobi is, its that he is not obito, because I know who tobi is for the matter of fact.


Awesome said:


> If he used Tsukiyomi he would have to activage MS. Each MS is unique to the individual, and thus, would give his character away. If it was a completely different MS there would be no mystery as to who he is as we would already know he's not any known character.



So you mean to say he doesn't activate one of the ultimate sharingan technique just to hide who he is, and doesn't care about his goals.
I mean how lame can that be? You mean to imply that his identity is more important that his goals???
Isn't it really contradictory to the fact that he doesn't care who he is?? 


Awesome said:


> And just... giogio at the last statement.  The names in the fucking title. What if I were to tell you Final Susanoo ISN'T ACTUALLY SUSANOO? Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?



How about edo-madara is to actually cast the infinite tsukuyomi and it was just tobi's role to revive the juubi?
After all it is you the tobito theorists who claim that it was madara's master plan and he mindfucked obito into all this shit.


Awesome said:


> Already refuted that in the last statement.
> 
> I don't even know what argument you have. You're not making much sense. I'm literally defending every Tobi theory right now.



Yeah right.


----------



## Easley (Aug 19, 2012)

Escargon said:


> So Tobis wrinkles are scars some says.
> 
> Is it the same with Mifune?


I think they're wrinkles, not scars - but even Kishi can't decide since they never look the same.

Two wrinkles?
in his DNA.

Or 3 which resemble Mifune?
in his DNA.

Maybe a fourth that seems like a scar?
in his DNA.

The art continuity leaves much to be desired.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> Mine is not an assumption that he has not used any fire technique. Every so called conflict of tobi is shown in manga, and there is not a single fire technique being used, where as it is a primary trait of an uchiha to use/have fire element chakra. Also it has been shown that tobi has more of an earth element, which is rarely found among uchihas. This would be really uncommon for obito wouldn't it be?
> Besides going by your statement, kakashi using an MS would make him an uchiha ancestor/predecessor then.





Just 



> Wow, so you tobito fans believe that obito can achieve a MS (for unkown reason) just to come out of crushing boulders in one eye, but cannot achieve another MS in like 20 years? And as tobi really thinks of far future, wouldnt he consider activating both MS to really have the ultimate advantage in forthcoming war? Besides my arguement is not who tobi is, its that he is not obito, because I know who tobi is for the matter of fact.



I'm defending every theory here, actually. You're the one who isn't making sense. Who the hell do you think Tobi is anyway? You're doing a bad job of making coherent theory. Who do you think Tobi is? Rin?



> So you mean to say he doesn't activate one of the ultimate sharingan technique just to hide who he is, and doesn't care about his goals.
> I mean how lame can that be? You mean to imply that his identity is more important that his goals???
> Isn't it really contradictory to the fact that he doesn't care who he is??



Surely you have no idea of plot deviceas.



> How about edo-madara is to actually cast the infinite tsukuyomi and it was just tobi's role to revive the juubi?
> After all it is you the tobito theorists who claim that it was madara's master plan and he mindfucked obito into all this shit.



Assumption. Going by your logic, it's invalid.

I'm confused as fuck. Who do you think Tobi is? Danzou? Rin? I think I'm getting trolled by a very half baked troll.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 19, 2012)

I'm just glancing over these posts but I just want to point out that the Sharingan Tobi used for Izanagi against Konan was probably just a normal Sharingan and definitely a new addition.

If you recall he also used Izanagi when he got Amaterasu'd by Sasuke. So we know he periodically transplants Sharingan eyes for this purpose.

Obviously it is/was impossible to achieve MS with these eyes since that would require him to witness the death of someone close to him, and he kinda hates everyone.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Just



Lol. just Lol.




Awesome said:


> I'm defending every theory here, actually. You're the one who isn't making sense. Who the hell do you think Tobi is anyway? You're doing a bad job of making coherent theory. Who do you think Tobi is? Rin?



Actually, I'm not making any theory, I don't need to.
I'm just contradicting your tobito theories and possible holes.




Awesome said:


> Surely you have no idea of plot deviceas.



Highly unlikely. Kishi has never ignored even minute details, which might lead to an anti-climax or people having double-thoughts about an ending.



Awesome said:


> Assumption. Going by your logic, it's invalid.


You cannot call it invalid. And I made my assumption based on tobito assumptions, because every tobito fan, when asked "what made obito change so drastically?" answers by "*maybe* madara mindfucked him".
So if madara is the mastermind, why not the ultimate move by the mastermind himself?


Awesome said:


> I'm confused as fuck. Who do you think Tobi is? Danzou? Rin? I think I'm getting trolled by a very half baked troll.



Heh. I don't have to *think* who tobi is......
Lets just stop it there, its irrelevent what I think and what I know.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Yea Tobi hasn't used a fire technique. He did use a secret Uchiha technique, though. I would say that's +1 for Tobi.


Uh... Just wanted to point out that the chakra that originated from Tobi's fingers in preparation for the Uchiha Kaenjin—which was most likely composed of *fire*—would pretty much make it a Katon Ninjutsu.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> If you recall he also used Izanagi when he got Amaterasu'd by Sasuke. So we know he periodically transplants Sharingan eyes for this purpose.


True. Which might indicate that he can be a very good stalker, for a sharingan collector as he cannot find random dead uchihas springing up from graves.


First Tsurugi said:


> Obviously it is/was impossible to achieve MS with these eyes since that would require him to witness the death of someone close to him, and he kinda hates everyone.



Well we don't know that for sure. I mean if kakashi can manage to do it and the odds favor that he didn't notice any death of someone close to him, I guess the main antogonist can do it aswell.



SaiST said:


> Uh... Just wanted to point out that the chakra that originated from Tobi's fingers in preparation for the Uchiha Kaenjin?which was most likely composed of *fire*?would pretty much make it a Katon Ninjutsu.


Isn't that another assumption?


----------



## SaiST (Aug 19, 2012)

Yes, but a very safe one.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 19, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> True. Which might indicate that he can be a very good stalker, for a sharingan collector as he cannot find random dead uchihas springing up from graves.



I would think most of them were acquired as a result of the Uchiha clan massacre, rather than scavenged from KIA Uchiha.



> Well we don't know that for sure. I mean if kakashi can manage to do it and the odds favor that he didn't notice any death of someone close to him, I guess the main antogonist can do it aswell.



Until we learn how Kakashi got his MS I'm not going to speculate about alternate methods of acquiring MS, there are too many uncertainties.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 19, 2012)

Easley said:


> I think they're wrinkles, not scars - but even Kishi can't decide since they never look the same.
> 
> Two wrinkles?
> Link removed
> ...



I dont get the fourth wrinkle, it seems to be linked to the mouth or some crazy shit like that. Should we say, art error, Zetsumark, or a proof of Obito the man who survived, became pissed, and hated the world so much he actually wanted to kill a newborn baby before his former master?


----------



## NO (Aug 19, 2012)

*Is it too much to expect too much? [Tobi comic]*



I really feel like we're all jumping the gun here. Those people saying "yeah no matter who it is, people are still going to be disappointed because it'll be an asspull". Well, I agree that Kishimoto won't be able please everyone (just like any writer) but who are you to say that the reveal will piss people off? That it won't make sense? How do we know that this won't be the best reveal in manga history?

Every masked villain [ever] in comics, cartoons, shows, and movies has had some sort of astonishing reveal. I've had very few moments where I thought I knew the identity of the masked man, few. I mean, have you ever watched a scooby doo episode and figured out who was behind the mask? I'll guess your answer is yes, but we both know that most episodes you didn't. Scooby Doo episode writers put clues throughout the episodes that make you think, and just when you thought you had the villain's identity, it was not him/her. These clues are so strategically put that it makes you look the opposite direction. At the end of the episode, right before they take off the mask, Velma always comes up with this BS proposition you never believe: "That's why the identity of the masked man is [name]" -- no Velma, you're so wron- what?! She's right?!

The point is with Scooby Doo is that you were always looking in the wrong direction the entire time and that's what made the series so good.

I think it is crazy that Kishimoto flat out said in an interview that "Tobi will be revealed in the coming weeks. Please keep reading and *predicting*," but that's what gets me.

He wants us to keep predicting. Is it possible that Tobi's identity is right in front of us, but it hasn't even been mentioned by the fanbase? 

I know most you will think "are you stupid?! of course we've said his name at least once in this forum!" but maybe that's what Kishimoto wants you to think. That you've already figured out his identity. Everyone is completely attached to a single identity, giving us all tunnel vision to what is Tobi's obvious identity. You think you're so smart about it, that you know who he is, that you've listed the only possibilities, but maybe not.

Yes, we've had so many puzzling clues already that point to a few select individuals, but maybe those clues are distorted for a reason.

My point is, Tobi's identity will make everyone go "Wow, how come I didn't think of that?! How come nobody thought of that?! It all makes complete sense!!".

Anyways, just a quick thing to wrap your mind on, consider it.


----------



## HyouSan2 (Aug 19, 2012)

I think Tobi being Obito is almost too obvious, this makes me think that Tobi cannot be Obito. Personally, I don't want Tobi to be Obito but if he is, it will be a good read I am sure when the manga comes out.


----------



## Khazzar (Aug 19, 2012)

To me ,if he's really Obito,then there was no reason to keep the mask on for 300 + chapters. He resembled Obito from the very start,as an Uchiha,with similiar eye power to Kakashi,hair-style and goofy attitude.

There would be no surprise,no shock-effect and it would murder Obito's character in my eyes. I rather liked a positive,"not so talented" Uchiha clan member filled with Will of Fire attitude and mountain sized balls.

Make him evil and you automatically piss on every Uchiha that appeared in this Manga,safe Itachi,who was and always will be - the King.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> What exactly is the baseline you use for determining someone's eye shape?  After all, their eyes change quite a bit depending on what emotion they're exhibiting at the moment.


I'm talking about their basic eyeshape. 





> And From what I've seen, Obito's eyes were always large and open, while Tobi's eyes are usually more narrow and angled.


Tobi and Obito have the same basic eyeshape, but eyeshape gets smaller and more mature with age. Just look at Naruto in Part I and look at him now. Heck, look at Sasuke.



imsogettingbanned said:


> Hah!
> Completely different?? You call just a little change in the shape of the eye completely different??
> If you compare the sasuke pre shippudden and shippuuden versions, you will notice lot of change in eye shapes here and there, which we might account into errors about which the targeted audience definitely wouldn't give a rat's arse about.


Who cares if the targeted audience doesn't give a rat's ass bout it. Kishi's the one writing the story, and he'll make it how he wants. Also, I'm sure the targeted audience would prefer to recognize who's behind the mask. 



> Similarly how kakashi got his MS?
> She witnessed death of her best friend and more important people in the war, and after seing the war, she knew that kakashi is just consoling himself by making lame promisses in front of people's graves and also madara began mindfucking her that you can avoid these wars and many many more deaths if you join me.


But, she didn't have a sharingan when Obito died. Also, why would Rin tel Kakashi that what someone like him says is worth absolutely nothing?



> OMG?! You mad bro?
> Didn't I just tell you to imagine putting the mask on konan with change of hair style and color and then compare to tobi??
> And then tell me what difference you find in both of their bodies??


How does a mask and different hairstyle and color affect how muscular your body is, change your shoulders, and make your boobs disappear?



imsogettingbanned said:


> Mine is not an assumption that he has not used any fire technique. Every so called conflict of tobi is shown in manga, and there is not a single fire technique being used, where as it is a primary trait of an uchiha to use/have fire element chakra. Also it has been shown that tobi has more of an earth element, which is rarely found among uchihas. This would be really uncommon for obito wouldn't it be?
> Besides going by your statement, kakashi using an MS would make him an uchiha ancestor/predecessor then.







> Wow, so you tobito fans believe that obito can achieve a MS (for unkown reason)


Probably because he thought he was about to die and lose his best friends. 



> just to come out of crushing boulders in one eye, but cannot achieve another MS in like 20 years?


he pretty much hates everyone. How could he achieve MS?



> And as tobi really thinks of far future, wouldnt he consider activating both MS to really have the ultimate advantage in forthcoming war? Besides my arguement is not who tobi is, its that he is not obito, because I know who tobi is for the matter of fact.


Why would he consider doing something that's impossible to do?




> So you mean to say he doesn't activate one of the ultimate sharingan technique just to hide who he is, and doesn't care about his goals.
> I mean how lame can that be? You mean to imply that his identity is more important that his goals???
> Isn't it really contradictory to the fact that he doesn't care who he is??






Easley said:


> I think they're wrinkles, not scars - but even Kishi can't decide since they never look the same.
> 
> Two wrinkles?
> [593: 2, 3]
> ...


They look about the same. It's just that the mask covers some of them and we get higher angled shots of his face.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

I was literally defending every theory from imsogettingbanned. Just going to ignore him at this point ck

The Tobito theory, The Izuna theory, setsuna theory, Kagami theory, etc. I don't know who he thinks Tobi really is. It has to be Rin or Danzou


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 19, 2012)

Against Konan Tobi had MS. Also, let me point out that Sasuke didn't kill Naruto but still obtained Mangekyou Sharingan. I have no doubt in my mind that he's not of true Uchiha blood. 

Also, I think this is why Tobi's and Kakashi's Kayumi are linked. 

If this is true, then it would explain why Tobi covers his face, Danzou showed that when you transport the eyes, the body rejects it, and it ends up all wrinkly and stuff. Which is why Danzou, Kakashi and Tobi all cover their faces.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

Kakashi covered up his face before he got the sharingan. Invalid point. The reason they cover their eyes is so they don't waste chakra. 

And how do you have no doubt in your mind that he's not of Uchiha blood?


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Who cares if the targeted audience doesn't give a rat's ass bout it. Kishi's the one writing the story, and he'll make it how he wants. Also, I'm sure the targeted audience would prefer to recognize who's behind the mask.


That is why he must have ignored the errors occured in eyeshape, or eyelashes or fingernails, etc. because he knew the targeted audience (other than those in denial, who will go as far as comparing an elephant and a dog to prove their point) wouldn't mind. 


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> But, she didn't have a sharingan when Obito died. Also, why would Rin tel Kakashi that what someone like him says is worth absolutely nothing?


Maybe she activated how kakashi did. Because he has failed to obey his promises a lot of time. Also because he couldn't save obito in the first place.


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> How does a mask and different hairstyle and color affect how muscular your body is, change your shoulders, and make your boobs disappear?


Where did you find konan having boobs under those large akatsuki robes??


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Probably because he thought he was about to die and lose his best friends.


There we go, another "probably".
Probably, rin thought she might end up dying as a virgin and activated her MS?
Making assumption is what actually you good at, I've lately come to notice.


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> he pretty much hates everyone. How could he achieve MS?


Just how kakashi did it?


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why would he consider doing something that's impossible to do?


Really? Impossible??
Now you even know, whats impossible and whats not?



ObitoUchiha111 said:


>



Its ok, its just a passing phase.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

imsogettingbanned, who do you "know" Tobi is?


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## YellowSennin (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Kakashi covered up his face before he got the sharingan. Invalid point. The reason they cover their eyes is so they don't waste chakra.
> 
> And how do you have no doubt in your mind that he's not of Uchiha blood?



I'm pretty sure that Danzou covered himself up because it would have looked fishy having 4-5 sharingans on his arm. If I concede that point about covering, for now... my point still stands...

As you can see in that picture, the wrinkles under Tobi's eye are similar to the wrinkles from Danzou's arm/eye.. I'm not saying it is Danzou. Danzou said that this was because his body rejected the Sharingans, and Tobi has shown he seems to be an expert in transplanting eyes. Which is why I think that Tobi is not an Uchiha, and stole his eyes.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> imsogettingbanned, who do you "know" Tobi is?



he said he doesn't believe ANY theory, he's a troll who just wants to bash every theory and say itsimpossible, especially tobito theories. even though we merely offer it as a likely possibility



screams uchiha to me


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## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

Danzou's body rejected the HASHIRAMA cells, not the sharingan. Sorry YellowSennin... pick up another theory


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## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> imsogettingbanned, who do you "know" Tobi is?



I don't really mean to take my name so seriously, neither do I intend to.

Firstly, none of you will believe me.
And secondly, you really didn't thought I'll spit it out that easily.

Besides no, I don't think tobi is rin, but what I know is that your tobito assumptions won't get you anywhere.

So yeah, you might want to reconsider that "this guy is just trolling, ignore him."


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> I don't really mean to take my name so seriously, neither do I intend to.
> 
> Firstly, none of you will believe me.
> And secondly, you really didn't thought I'll spit it out that easily.
> ...



you should learn to check your grammar, i just got a huge headache trying to decipher what you typed


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> he said he doesn't believe ANY theory, he's a troll who just wants to bash every theory and say itsimpossible, especially tobito theories. even though we merely offer it as a likely possibility.




:ho



Mistshadow said:


> screams uchiha to me



 screams even louder to me. But not to kakashi I guess.




Mistshadow said:


> you should learn to check your grammar, i just got a huge headache trying to decipher what you typed



Don't bother reading mate.


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## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

"Knows who he is" 

Won't say because he has no proof

And you say we're the ones making assumptions.


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## YellowSennin (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Danzou's body rejected the HASHIRAMA cells, not the sharingan. Sorry YellowSennin... pick up another theory



No thanks, I still think he is not an Uchiha.


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## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

At this point you're running on blind faith since I refuted all your points, but I'm not going to stop you.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> "Knows who he is"
> 
> Won't say because he has no proof
> 
> And you say we're the ones making assumptions.



Haha! xD
See, you are again making an assumption that I don't have any proof.

I won't say no matter what. Whether I got a proof or not.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> he said he doesn't believe ANY theory, he's a troll who just wants to bash every theory and say itsimpossible, especially tobito theories. even though we merely offer it as a likely possibility


                .                       .


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

because you're a troll who can't type properly


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> At this point you're running on blind faith since I refuted all your points, but I'm not going to stop you.



That's not entirely true though, is it? 

Tobi is still an expert at eye transplantation.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

As was a 13 year old half baked Chuunin named Rin. Tobi confirmed to be Rin folks.


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> As was a 13 year old half baked Chuunin named Rin. Tobi confirmed to be Rin folks.



I understood that Rin was a highly skilled Medical Ninja, which is why she was able to transplant that eye.

Tobi said he got the eye from Kannabi bridge. So it could be Obito, but I think it's more likely to be Obito's eye.

Also using that logic, it could be Rin's kidnappers. I remember that they too used Genjutsu.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> That is why he must have ignored the errors occured in eyeshape, or eyelashes or fingernails, etc. because he knew the targeted audience (other than those in denial, who will go as far as comparing an elephant and a dog to prove their point) wouldn't mind.


You should stop. This is bad for your and everyone else's brains. Your logic is fucking atrocious. Also, I'm not in denial. I'm stating examples of the point I'm making. If his face looks completely different from who he is, then how will we recognize him?! You think people won't want to recognize him?! USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN!



> Maybe she activated how kakashi did. Because he has failed to obey his promises a lot of time. Also because he couldn't save obito in the first place.


We don't even know how Kakashi got MS in the first place.
Also, Obito "died" because he saved Kakashi. It wasn't Kakashi's fault.



> There we go, another "probably".
> Probably, rin thought she might end up dying as a virgin and activated her MS?
> Making assumption is what actually you good at, I've lately come to notice.


Every Tobi theory is an assumption. What you expect me to have actual PROOF that he's Obito?! ALL WE CAN DO IS ASSUME AND MAKE GUESSES BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW THE TRUTH YET. IF WE DID THEN THERE WOULD BE NO NEED TO DEBATE ABOUT IT. There's no PROOF that he's Obito, yet. There's no PROOF that he's, Kagami. There's no PROOF that he's Setsuna. There's no PROOF that he's Izuna. There's no PROOF that he's anyone! Except maybe the Ramen Guy.:ho



YellowSennin said:


> No thanks, I still think he is not an Uchiha.


Who isn't an uchiha that could be Tobi that we have already seen?



imsogettingbanned said:


> Haha! xD
> See, you are again making an assumption that I don't have any proof.
> 
> I won't say no matter what. Whether I got a proof or not.


We don't have proof of his identity until the mask comes off. So, it's not an assumption. It's a FACT that you don't have any proof. Unless you're Kishimoto, but I shiver at the thought of you being the one writing this manga.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You should stop. This is bad for your and everyone else's brains. Your logic is fucking atrocious. Also, I'm not in denial. I'm stating examples of the point I'm making. If his face looks completely different from who he is, then how will we recognize him?! You think people won't want to recognize him?! USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN!


Heh. A little change in eyeshape wouldn't make his face look compeletely different.
And yes we could recognise him because a face consists lot more features than plain eyeshapes.
And mine is still better logic than comparing an elephant with a dog.


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> We don't even know how Kakashi got MS in the first place.


I guess I "assumed" kakashi activated his MS without witnessing someone close's death.


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Also, Obito "died" because he saved Kakashi. It wasn't Kakashi's fault.


Sigh.  Leave it.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Every Tobi theory is an assumption. What you expect me to have actual PROOF that he's Obito?! ALL WE CAN DO IS ASSUME AND MAKE GUESSES BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW THE TRUTH YET. IF WE DID THEN THERE WOULD BE NO NEED TO DEBATE ABOUT IT. There's no PROOF that he's Obito, yet. There's no PROOF that he's, Kagami. There's no PROOF that he's Setsuna. There's no PROOF that he's Izuna. There's no PROOF that he's anyone! Except maybe the Ramen Guy.:ho



Nobody asked anything about proofs.
There is a basic difference between assuming and relating with facts.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> We don't have proof of his identity until the mask comes off. So, it's not an assumption. It's a FACT that you don't have any proof. Unless you're Kishimoto, but I shiver at the thought of you being the one writing this manga.



Ohh believe me, you would do a lot more than shiver if I were to tell you.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> Still better logic than comparing an elephant with a dog.


I never compared an elephant with a dog.



> I guess I "assumed" kakashi activated his MS without witnessing someone close's death.
> 
> Sigh.  Leave it.


Is your butt where your head should be?





> Nobody asked anything about proofs.


"Ha! xD You don't know if I gotz proofs or not so you're making assumptions!" - imsogettingbanned

I have to ask, are you a brick wall?




> There is a basic difference between assuming and relating with facts.


There are many facts about Tobi that point to him being Obito. Is it a fact that Tobi IS Obito? We don't know. We have to wait for the manga to give us confirmation. Until then, all we can do is speculate.




> Ohh believe me, you would do a lot more than shiver if I were to tell you.


From this I can tell that you're just a troll. Fuck off.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

He's obviously just a troll. He's kind of reminiscent of Xerces, actually.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I never compared an elephant with a dog.





ObitoUchiha111 said:


> If you got attacked by an elephant in broad daylight, and later your best friend says his dog was behind it, would you believe him?





ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Is your butt where your head should be?



Is this the best you can come up with insults?


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> "Ha! xD You don't know if I gotz proofs or not so you're making assumptions!" - imsogettingbanned
> 
> I have to ask, are you a brick wall?



I meant I never asked for proofs from you for your tobito theory.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> There are many facts about Tobi that point to him being Obito. Is it a fact that Tobi IS Obito? We don't know. We have to wait for the manga to give us confirmation. Until then, all we can do is speculate.



Wow, I'm beggining to think that fact is defined as assumption in your dictionary.
If you call eyeshapes being identical and tobi getting emotional at kakashi fact? Then bro, something is really wrong.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> From this I can tell that you're just a troll. Fuck off.


Do I look like I care? Say what you want to, think what you want to, believe what you want to.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> He's obviously just a troll. He's kind of reminiscent of Xerces, actually.



LOL He's got the same avatar too


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

He might get some credibility back if he actually comes up with his own theory that apparently "Will send shivers down our spines" and is "unbelievable"

But those are just* assumptions.*


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Lol he's not the only one with a theory that he doesn't want to share.  I've got my own theory as well, but I already know nobody will want to believe it.  Primarily because what I'm thinking requires us to question things we've been told and things we've "seen".  Also because in his current state, Tobi looks different from the person I'm thinking of.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> stuff


I didn't compare a dog and elephant in that comment. Read it more closely.



> I meant I never asked for proofs from you for your tobito theory.


You kind of did by saying that we're all just making assumptions.





> Wow, I'm beggining to think that fact is defined as assumption in your dictionary.


How so?


> If you call eyeshapes being identical and tobi getting emotional at kakashi fact?


So, how is their eyeshapes being identical not a fact? You're saying it's an assumption when it's right in front of our eyes? 

It is a FACT that Tobi and Obito have the same hairstyle (Not the best evidence, but still a factual hint).

It is a FACT that Tobi's original two masks had only one eyehole, which was on his right eye. It is a FACT that that is the only one of his ORIGINAL eyes that Obito would have left.

It is a FACT that Tobi's original two masks were orange. It is a FACT that Obito's goggles and some parts of his clothes were orange, meaning they have similar color preferences.

It is a FACT that Tobi's right sharingan was obtained DURING (not after) the battle of Kannabi Bridge. It is a FACT that Obito awakened his sharingan at the battle of Kannabi Bridge.

It is a FACT that Tobi knows very personal things about Kakashi.

Need I go on?



> Then bro, something is really wrong.


Oh, the irony.




> Do I look like I care? Say what you want to, think what you want to, believe what you want to.


It is a FACT that you don't have any proof of Tobi's identity unless you're Kishimoto. It is a FACT that you're not Kishimoto (at least, I sure as Hell hope you're not). Whether you have proof or not is not an opinion, it's a FACT that you have no proof. And if you did, and are so confident in it, then why not show it to us? Simple. You don't have any proof. Have you actually deluded yourself into thinking you DO have proof? If so, then that's really sad.



			
				darkprinc979 said:
			
		

> Lol he's not the only one with a theory that he doesn't want to share. I've got my own theory as well, but I already know nobody will want to believe it. Primarily because what I'm thinking requires us to question things we've been told and things we've "seen". Also because in his current state, Tobi looks different from the person I'm thinking of.


Come on, share it. So far you seem to be a really sensible poster. I highly doubt that you'd believe in a theory that's _too_ out there.

Note: That wasn't sarcasm. It was an actual compliment.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 19, 2012)

I have a hard time beliving that Obito himself would actually kill a baby.. i dont think Tobi is even a human.

And tell me, if he is Obito, why did Tobi say to Kabuto that his clone doesnt have a mind on his own for a reason? Obviously Kabuto knows who he is (yes he does, dont argue), but he doesnt know anything about Tobis reinforcements.. so again, that seriously rules out that Tobi is even a real thing for me.

And for Izuna, Madara called Tobi *him* and said Izuna is dead, i mean what the hell. 

First, you dont call someone in life *him* while having knowledge that he is already dead and gone from this world.

Secondly, dont take this manga litteraly. Tobi saying the eyes were his to begin with could also mean he was the one giving Nagato those eyes and thought it actually belonged to him.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

When it comes to theories, there is no *proof*, there is only *evidence*.  Proof assumes you're saying that you're right no matter what, where evidence is a way of saying you could be wrong.  Therefore, none of these theories has *proof*, only *evidence* that we believe to support our theories.  At any rate, I would say that he's probably enjoying watching everyone go back and forth over Obito too much to say what he's thinking.  Lol, I'm sure as hell getting some laughs over it.  That isn't to say of course, that I don't think of Obito as a viable candidate, but it's still fun to watch.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I didn't compare a dog and elephant in that comment. Read it more closely.



Comparing 2 eyeshapes can be like I got attacked by a wolf and my friend said it was a fox. This would have made much more sense.


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You kind of did by saying that we're all just making assumptions.


No. I meant rather than using "probably" try using something more definite.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> How so?
> So, how is their eyeshapes being identical not a fact? You're saying it's an assumption when it's right in front of our eyes?



No. Eyeshapes being identical cannot be a fact leading two persons into one being.


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It is a FACT that Tobi and Obito have the same hairstyle (Not the best evidence, but still a factual hint).


Well, tobi's hairstyle was different when he met itachi. Other than that no comment and furthur arguement please, that he might be madara and shit.


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It is a FACT that Tobi's original two masks had only one eyehole, which was on his right eye. It is a FACT that that is the only one of his ORIGINAL eyes that Obito would have left.


Still not enough. We all know for a fact that tobi always had two eyes if not sharingans, but he did not prefer to use his left eye, due to still unknown reasons.


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It is a FACT that Tobi's original two masks were orange. It is a FACT that Obito's goggles and some of his clothes were orange, meaning they have similar color preferences.



Agreed these are facts but not very convincing. Can't really comment on color preferences.


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It is a FACT that Tobi's right sharingan was obtained DURING (not after) the battle of Kannabi Bridge. It is a FACT that Obito awakened his sharingan at the battle of Kannabi Bridge.
> 
> 
> It is a FACT that Tobi knows very personal things about Kakashi.



This is the only fact that can prove your theory.


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Need I go on?



Well, more than the facts are the contradictions leading to tobi being not obito. Call it holes or whatever.
Won't bother to elaborate that as it would be useless.


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It is a FACT that you don't have any proof of Tobi's identity unless you're Kishimoto. It is a FACT that you're not Kishimoto (at least, I sure as Hell hope you're not). Whether you have proof or not is not an opinion, it's a FACT that you have no proof. And if you did, and are so confident in it, then why not show it to us? Simple. You don't have any proof. Have you actually deluded yourself into thinking you DO have proof? If so, then that's really sad.



Like I said earlier. I couldn't care any less. I don't want to say because it will spoil what has been the real suspense of the story so far firstly, and secondly you won't believe me anyways (which is a good thing to be honest). And its not a theory I'm not telling here mind you. But again, I don't really care what you will think of me.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

So basically "I have no proof for this claim but I'm just gonna say it's fact" ck


----------



## Zeno (Aug 19, 2012)

There is no other explanation. Tobi _is_ Orochimaru.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> So basically "I have no proof for this claim but I'm just gonna say it's fact" ck



Fine. For your sake, I don't know who tobi is.
Feel better??

But I for sure as hell know its not obito either.
I may not have evidential facts for that either, but all the reasons have already been stated why can tobi not be obito. By reasons I mean facts stated in manga itself.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 19, 2012)

there is no way Tobi is Obito..... too many plotholes


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> There is no other explanation. Tobi _is_ Orochimaru.



Wouldn't that be awesome? xD


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> Comparing 2 eyeshapes can be like I got attacked by a wolf and my friend said it was a fox. This would have made much more sense.


Agreed.



> No. I meant rather than using "probably" try using something more definite.


if I did that, you'd just say that I was assuming what i was saying was a fact.





> No. Eyeshapes being identical cannot be a fact leading two persons into one being.


Well, it doesn't confirm it, but it's a hint.



> Well, tobi's hairstyle was different when he met itachi. Other than that no comment and furthur arguement please, that he might be madara and shit.


Yeah, but, the earliest we saw Tobi, he had the same hairstyle as Obito.



> Still not enough. We all know for a fact that tobi always had two eyes if not sharingans, but he did not prefer to use his left eye, due to still unknown reasons.


We don't know that he ALWAYS had two eyes. Personally, I think the left eye was hidden because it was an implant. Especially considering that he just tossed it away during his fight with Konan. I'm also pretty sure Tobi used Izanagi to escape Sasuke's Amaterasu. Anyways, it's good to be able to actually have a good debate with you now.




> Agreed these are facts but not very convincing. Can't really comment on color preferences.


True.




> This is the only fact that can prove your theory.


Not prove, but support.




> Well, more than the facts are the contradictions leading to tobi being not obito. Call it holes or whatever.
> Won't bother to elaborate that as it would be useless.







> Like I said earlier. I couldn't care any less. I don't want to say because it will spoil what has been the real suspense of the story so far firstly, and secondly you won't believe me anyways (which is a good thing to be honest). And its not a theory I'm not telling here mind you. But again, I don't really care what you will think of me.


Ya got 3 options, bud.

1. You're Kishimoto.

2. You're insane

Or 3. You're just a troll.

But if you actually do have this ZOMFG amazing proof, then feel free to PM it to me so you don't spoil anyone else.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> there is no way Tobi is Obito..... too many plotholes


So basically you're just going to keep on posting the exact same sentence over and over again and not listen to anyone's explanation for your shitty "plotholes". Either try to debate or GTFO.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Tobi is not Kagami, he has not a plot and the theory itself is full of assumptions and people has to google to find out who he is.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So basically you're just going to keep on posting the exact same sentence over and over again and not listen to anyone's explanation for your shitty "plotholes". Either try to debate or GTFO.



Well, they say if you repeat something 7 times people will tend to believe you


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> if I did that, you'd just say that I was assuming what i was saying was a fact.


Maybe, but all I mean is using "probably" leads us to nowhere but futher speculation.


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Well, it doesn't confirm it, but it's a hint.


Taken in account.


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Yeah, but, the earliest we saw Tobi, he had the same hairstyle as Obito.


Yes, but he met itachi after his first appearance in naruto era.
Apparantly that is the only change in his hairstyle so far. So can't say anything here. 


ObitoUchiha111 said:


> We don't know that he ALWAYS had two eyes. Personally, I think the left eye was hidden because it was an implant. Especially considering that he just tossed it away during his fight with Konan. I'm also pretty sure Tobi used Izanagi to escape Sasuke's Amaterasu. Anyways, it's good to be able to actually have a good debate with you now.



Well, as far as facts are concerned, can't argue much on that either.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Not prove, but support.


Yes. I meant that only.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Ya got 3 options, bud.
> 
> 1. You're Kishimoto.
> 
> ...



You never know, I might even do that aswell.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 19, 2012)

you really need to mellow down

the plotholes i have posted are all referenced with manga panels... there are multiple plotholes that rule out Obito, nothing more needs to be said


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Raventhal said:
			
		

> Well, they say if you repeat something 7 times people will tend to believe you


Must not work with him though, because he's repeated it dozens of times.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

OK guys, I was wasted at this party last night and I ran into this one guy who also is a fan of Naruto. I gave him every reason for each identity. He reads the databooks and the manga chapters and goes "Kagami and Setsuna have to relevance to this battle" and I told him some Obito stuff and he goes "DUDE OMG, It makes sense, It could totally work".

So yeah I"m going to take the opinion and response I get from a regular fan than a fanatic retarded fan.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> you really need to mellow down
> 
> the plotholes i posted and the plotholes other people have posted are all referenced with manga panels... *i think* there are multiple plotholes, need i say more?


So you're not sure anymore?


----------



## NO (Aug 19, 2012)




----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

> We don't know that he ALWAYS had two eyes. Personally, I think the left eye was hidden because it was an implant. Especially considering that he just tossed it away during his fight with Konan. I'm also pretty sure Tobi used Izanagi to escape Sasuke's Amaterasu



Even if it was an implant, as an Uchiha he would be biologically equipped to handle the sharingan, so he'd be able to turn it off.  Else, how would someone with ems be able to turn it off?  As for Tobi using izanagi to get rid of amaterasu, I'm more inclined to believe he just teleported the amaterasu flames to the other dimension, like what Kakashi did to clear the path to the Uchiha hideout.  Won't say izanagi is impossible, but I wouldn't think it as likely.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> you really need to mellow down
> 
> the plotholes i have posted are all referenced with manga panels... i think there are multiple plotholes with Obito, nothing more needs to be said



Actually there is only one panel that really questions Obito's time line and that's Tobi saying he gave Nagato his eyes.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Actually there is only one panel that really questions Obito's time line and that's Tobi saying he gave Nagato his eyes.



and even that is hard to digest because in that same fight he said he fought hashirama a vote, he is uchiha madara, he is the 2nd rikudou, and that he stole power from hashirama during the vote while faking his death.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Anything he said up to the point where Naruto revealed to him that the real Madara was out is an invalid argument, because he was posing as Madara up to that point.  That said, there are still many things that are questionable with the Obito theory, that can only be answered with speculation.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> and even that is hard to digest because in that same fight he said he fought hashirama a vote, he is uchiha madara, he is the 2nd rikudou, and that he stole power from hashirama during the vote while faking his death.


Not to mention all of these ''plotholes'' goes against his Kagami as well.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

heyyyy guys, lets take a vote, Am I an awesomely cool intelligent debater? WHO HAS READ MY POSTS


----------



## jacamo (Aug 19, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Actually there is only one panel that really questions Obito's time line and that's Tobi saying he gave Nagato his eyes.



strongly disagree... there are many others

i have read at least 5 other plotholes other than my own


----------



## Zeno (Aug 19, 2012)

When it turns out to be Orochimaru I'm gonna laugh my ass off. Don't say I told you so


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

> No, in reality you tobito nubs are the real trolls. Obito is one of the last people to be talked in to controlling the fox and destroying his own village. Look how stupid this theory is.* Call me a troll all you want I have not even read over 5 chapters of Naruto in my life,* but based off my knowledge of obito and what the masked man was doing against minato it is obvious that it is not obito.



I remember I had Thebaxman write this in the previous version of this thread to me. Made me laugh.





jacamo said:


> strongly disagree... there are many others
> 
> i have read at least 5 other plotholes other than my own



dude you don't know what a plot hole is.

The internet can be your friend, The fact is Kishi will get around to explaining circumstances when Tobi is revealed. He CANT do that now or we would know who he is. 
Kagami is one giant plot hole XD


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

So guys, if Tobi's not Obito... how would he have known that there was someone trapped under all those boulders with a two tomoe sharingan that had the capability of haxxed ass Space-Time Ninjutsu? Furthermore, the only way he COULD know that is if he was stalking Obito and Kakashi on their mission for no reason. You could say he was stalking them in order to get Obito's eyes, but why him? Why not take the eyes of another Uchiha? A stronger one? I mean, unless Tobi magically has the power to tell the potential of each sharingan he sees.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

heyyyyyyy you got your sig and reputable aspects back

and I know, I've said that at least a few dozen times.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

One more thing. Tobi got Obito's sharingan DURING the BATTLE of Kannabi Bridge. Which means that if Tobi's not Obito, then he 100% WAS stalking Obito and Kakashi on their mission, which makes NO sense. Don't say that it was AT Kannabi Bridge, because that's not where the whole boulder incident happened.


----------



## Easley (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Anything he said up to the point where Naruto revealed to him that the real Madara was out is an invalid argument, because he was posing as Madara up to that point.


Sure, but who's he posing as now? Nobody! Nothing he says is a valid argument because he is no-one! It's impossible to trust this man.



> That said, there are still many things that are questionable with the Obito theory, that can only be answered with speculation.


Speculation is the basis for most Tobi theories - manga facts are hard to come by - but I'm sure the next few chapters will end all this... unless Kishi intends to torture us a bit longer. He's cruel.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

yea I caught onto that slipup someone made on the previous page or 2 also, I just forgot to correct it


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Not to mention all of these ''plotholes'' goes against his Kagami as well.



The biggest thing that has me against Kagami is that Tobi cheeks are too round to be as old as Kagami.  

Izuna would be around 50 after being brought back 30 years ago by Madara.  In this manga people around 40-50 still look pretty young.

Obito would be around 30.

Kagami would be around 71.

Looking at Obito he's certainly not drawn elderly like.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 19, 2012)

Kagami is a nobody. Unless his supporters are angling for the 'I am no one' act as legitimate reason, then saying it's him is just so random. At least Izuna has some potential thematic importance, even though... who'd actually care about it isn't there (Sasuke). Kagami, Setsuna... it's just so... random. The fuck.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 19, 2012)

if you think Kagami has plotholes then you obviously dont understand the definition of a plothole

Obito is the one that has plotholes



Zengetto said:


> When it turns out to be Orochimaru I'm gonna laugh my ass off. Don't say I told you so



lol please let this happen


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> if you think Kagami has plotholes then you obviously dont understand the definition of a plothole
> 
> Obito is the one that has plotholes
> 
> ...



Kagama is a plot hole because we know nothing about him.   Meaning there's a huge hole in the plot to fill in for him to be Tobi.  We don't know anything about him from personality, goals, plans, and etc.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

I wouldn't call Kagami a plot hole so much as a plot chasm.  I'll accept anyone within reason that is a potential candidate, but in order for it to matter, it has to be at least someone we have back story on, and seeing him in Danzo's flashback does not count as backstory, because he didn't do anything except say a couple of lines.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Raventhal said:
			
		

> Kagama is a plot hole because we know nothing about him. Meaning there's a huge hole in the plot to fill in for him to be Tobi. We don't know anything about him from personality, goals, plans, and etc.


I hate the Kagami theory but that is wrong. if Kishi explained everything about him and how all these things worked out, there wouldn't be any plotholes. Same thing applies to Obito, which jacamo conveniently ignores.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

jacamo said:


> if you think Kagami has plotholes then you obviously dont understand the definition of a plothole
> 
> Obito is the one that has plotholes
> 
> ...


Look at your own list and question them about Kagami.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Look at your own list and question them about Kagami.



I just did, and I repeated 'COULD' a shit ton. A few times every single point.

Yet when I say Could with answering for Obito, ITS GRASPING AT STRAWS DUDE ITS IMPOSSIBLE, UNACCEPTABLE EXPLANATIONS, then he conveniently starts saying plot holes again and how Kagami is Obito's father


----------



## KingJiraiya (Aug 19, 2012)

My theory on who Tobi is:

A mix of Obito and Zetsu, twisted by Madara.

Zetsu was at the battle of the Kannabi Bridge. He was sent to spy on all Uchiha member's out on mission incase of death/severe injury, so he was able to retrieve sharingan's. (Sharingan's were stolen for Madara, incase his eye's stopped working/needed to change)

Whilst the fight was going Zetsu was in the background spying on Obito. Once Obito was then crushed and the team left Obito, Zetsu went in. He retrieved the body, but noticed the slightest pulse. So Zetsu mixed himself with Obito and kept him alive. (Was kept alive as Madara was running low on life, and it was too see if he could be a replacement.)

When 'new' Obito awoke he had forgotten what happened to him, the crush caused memory loss. This is when Madara and Zetsu knew they could twist him.

Zetsu was implanting evil thoughts into his part of Obito, and Madara was tormenting him with horrors until he snapped and became the way he is.


Anyway, that's what I think Tobi is. I do have more thoughts about it, but I got bored of it and only got what's written done.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Is jacamo going to reply or not?

I can't wait to see his replies to the recent posts.


----------



## Jay. (Aug 19, 2012)

Kagama is better for the plot.

Tobirama created the Uchiha Police right? Right??? RIGHT?????

Kagami is Madara's son and Obito's grandfather/father



Rep me


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

*Tobi clues*

*spoiler*
Seeing the new chapter 597 really has me wondering.
Who is Tobi?! I've been wondering for awhile, but now we have new clues.
He has Obito's eye that was supposedly crushed during the battle at Kannabi Bridge. So, how did he manage that? He was also old enough to fight Minato, which strongly implies he's not obito. There's no way 1 year of training would make him that powerful. He's not Madara considering he's been brought back and KILLED AGAIN.
He could be Izuna, Kagami, Zetsu mixed with Obito, Orochimaru's experiment, etc.

So, opinions?


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

@Jay:  Kagami is better for the plot how?  We didn't even see his name in the manga or anime, which means his name was only in the data books.  How could Tobi be someone we only know the name of from a source outside the manga?  Out of those other two points, the first has zero relevance to the theory, and the second has no basis of fact in the story at all, so to state it as fact is pointless.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

What if, Tobi is obitos body mixed with cells from the first from an experiment done by Orochimaru?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I hate the Kagami theory but that is wrong. if Kishi explained everything about him and how all these things worked out, there wouldn't be any plotholes. Same thing applies to Obito, which jacamo conveniently ignores.



Actually it's not the same.  Kagami literally has no plot thus his whole plot is a hole.  Obito and Izuna have things tying them to the story.   Izuna was known as Madara's equal and Obito helped shape Kakashi.  Kagami is just a two panel guy who was on Tobirama's team.  We have no clue what he was like.


----------



## Jay. (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> @Jay:  Kagami is better for the plot how?  We didn't even see his name in the manga or anime, which means his name was only in the data books.  How could Tobi be someone we only know the name of from a source outside the manga?  Out of those other two points, the first has zero relevance to the theory, and the second has no basis of fact in the story at all, so to state it as fact is pointless.





Raventhal said:


> Actually it's not the same.  Kagami literally has no plot thus his whole plot is a hole.  Obito and Izuna have things tying them to the story.   Izuna was known as Madara's equal and Obito helped shape Kakashi.  Kagami is just a two panel guy who was on Tobirama's team.  We have no clue what he was like.


Kagami is the reason why Danzou was obsessed with Uchihas. 

Also don't you think an Uchiha in a team lead by a Senju has a lot conflict potential?

Also Kagami is a fucking badass name.


But moreover, I'm always right.


----------



## mrcapslock07 (Aug 19, 2012)

tobi is six path himself, seeking vengeance over the ninja powers he created. he's weaker now cuz he's super old


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

He has Obitos eye.
Why do we keep forgetting this?
If he was the sage, why would he want obitos eye?



mrcapslock07 said:


> tobi is six path himself, seeking vengeance over the ninja powers he created. he's weaker now cuz he's super old



Why would the sage want obitos eye?


----------



## Jay. (Aug 19, 2012)

People forget that it doesn't have to be Obito's eye but rather it is related to it.

Via father or grandfather.


Well ofcourse someone could have used rebirth jutus on Obito's crushed body


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 19, 2012)

Jay. said:


> Kagami is the reason why Danzou was obsessed with Uchihas.
> 
> Also don't you think an Uchiha in a team lead by a Senju has a lot conflict potential?
> 
> ...



Lol, you just filled a plot hole better than the DC government fills pot holes.  Just saying in terms of fan knowledge Kagami is an unknown in just about every way.


----------



## supersubway (Aug 19, 2012)

its minato calling it now, obito is now tooo obvious


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Yes.  Kagami could fit the plot of any character at all.  I could say for instance that the Sandaime was really Kagami in disguise.  They were both around at the same time, and in fact were together when Hiruzen was picked as Tobirama's replacement.  Out of jealousy, and a desire to separate from the rule of the Senju, Kagami killed Hiruzen at some point when Danzo wasn't around to notice.  I think the facts support that theory more than they do the Tobi theory


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Jay. said:


> People forget that it doesn't have to be Obito's eye but rather it is related to it.
> 
> Via father or grandfather.
> 
> ...



In 597 Tobi admitted to having Obitos eye.
That's why it's in the same dimension as Kakashis.


----------



## Easley (Aug 19, 2012)

I'm not a huge fan of The Legend of Korra, but what did you guys think of Amon's unmasking?

Do you think Tobi could be similar?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

Easley said:


> I'm not a huge fan of The Legend of Korra, but what did you guys think of Amon's unmasking?
> 
> Do you think Tobi could be similar?



you're comparing a masking reveal 5 years in the making to a reveal of like 15 episodes


----------



## jacamo (Aug 19, 2012)

Jay. said:


> Kagami is the reason why Danzou was obsessed with Uchihas.
> 
> Also don't you think an Uchiha in a team lead by a Senju has a lot conflict potential?
> 
> ...



Kagami rhymes with Kannabi (bridge)

i think im onto something bro


----------



## Easley (Aug 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> you're comparing a masking reveal 5 years in the making to a reveal of like 15 episodes


Yes, I am! 

Don't underestimate a writer's talent for providing anti-climaxes.


----------



## Jay. (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> In 597 Tobi admitted to having Obitos eye.
> That's why it's in the same dimension as Kakashis.


He said he got the from there but he didn't say he got the eye from there.
The writting in that chapter was too deep for you.



Easley said:


> I'm not a huge fan of The Legend of Korra, but what did you guys think of Amon's unmasking?
> 
> Do you think Tobi could be similar?


Fuck you.


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 19, 2012)

If I were to say Tobi was any Uchiha it would be Izuna. The theory being he gave both of his eyes to Madara and so he stole Tobi's.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Jay. said:


> Kagama is better for the plot.


The fuck? Tobi being Kagami would RUIN the plot.



Raventhal said:


> Actually it's not the same.  Kagami literally has no plot thus his whole plot is a hole.  Obito and Izuna have things tying them to the story.   Izuna was known as Madara's equal and Obito helped shape Kakashi.  Kagami is just a two panel guy who was on Tobirama's team.  We have no clue what he was like.


True.



Jay. said:


> People forget that it doesn't have to be Obito's eye but rather it is related to it.


Tobi wouldn't have control over Kakashi's left eye if his right eye wasn't Obito's.



supersubway said:


> its minato calling it now, obito is now tooo obvious


.................



Easley said:


> I'm not a huge fan of The Legend of Korra, but what did you guys think of Amon's unmasking?
> 
> Do you think Tobi could be similar?


I sure hope not. Amon's reveal was shit. I quit the Avatar series because my favorite character turned out to be some pussy waterbender we've never heard of that had no real motive...

I don't want my favorite Naruto character to be ruined to...

Anyways, back on topic, lol.



Mistshadow said:


> you're comparing a masking reveal 5 years in the making to a reveal of like 15 episodes


This too.



jacamo said:


> Kagami rhymes with Kannabi (bridge)
> 
> i think im onto something bro


They mean completely different things. You're really resorting to playing word games?


----------



## Easley (Aug 19, 2012)

Jay. said:


> Fuck you.


Yes, quite! 

I guess people won't be happy if Tobi is like Amon. hehe.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Jay. said:


> He said he got the from there but he didn't say he got the eye from there.
> The writting in that chapter was too deep for you.
> 
> 
> Fuck you.


Well, now let's think about this.
He said he got the eye from the battle at Kannabi Bridge during the last war.
That's the exact time and place Obito died. Obito so far is the only person revealed to have had a sharingan capable of space time. Also, the dimension is the exact same dimension in which Kakashis is. Who else would have been at that battle with that particular sharingan? 
Not deep enough, bud.


----------



## HyouSan2 (Aug 19, 2012)

Where can I look at a raw version of 597?


----------



## Jay. (Aug 19, 2012)

> Tobi wouldn't have control over Kakashi's left eye if his right eye wasn't Obito's.


That was retarded Obito Fanboy


Look I don't really care who Tobi is at this point. But Kagami is awesome for the plot. You guys are just mad.



Also Tobi said: "Eye was taking Cannabis under a bridge". It was mistranslated as: "I got the eye from the kannabi bridge."


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

HyouSan2 said:


> Where can I look at a raw version of 597?



Google, my friend.



Jay. said:


> That was retarded Obito Fanboy
> 
> 
> Look I don't really care who Tobi is at this point. But Kagami is awesome for the plot. You guys are just mad.
> ...



Oh god.
Not one of you on here too.
Wanna-be troll? This is a Tobi identity thread. 
If you don't care, leave.

Also, just because you're wrong about something doesn't mean you need to act like an immature brat. We're all fans here. We're just trying to come to a conclusion.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Hmm...not sure how much everyone here considers the naruto wikia to be a legitimate information source, but from what I read there about Kamui, it's available to anyone with a mangekyou that trains enough.  This is obviously not stated in the manga, but my guess is that it was in one of the data books.  Also:



> Kagami is the reason why Danzou was obsessed with Uchihas.



Source, please.



> Also don't you think an Uchiha in a team lead by a Senju has a lot conflict potential?



That can't even be considered evidence, let alone proof.


----------



## supersubway (Aug 19, 2012)

its minato mixed with some of madaras and senju dna . orochimaro did that to him, thats why he was able to get away with killing babies under the fourths rule. the night tobi attacked could have been a zetsu since it was all of told through minato no one knows for sure what happened, the only other person who might know is kushina and she was giving birth so she might not know what really happened either. and plus minato would totally be able to retrieve obitos eye/body before the rocks crushed all of him and he would know all about kakashi and the promise to the 4th and jiraiya, and this all just popped in my head as a passing thought with no scans to back any of this up since i dont feel like looking

and if you find plot holes well then oh well, everyone of these theorys have plot holes


----------



## son_michael (Aug 19, 2012)

Jay. said:


> Also Tobi said: "Eye was taking Cannabis under a bridge". It was mistranslated as: "I got the eye from the kannabi bridge."



how does this help your argument exactly?


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Jay. said:
			
		

> That was retarded Obito Fanboy


Rephrase this. I can't even tell what you meant by that.




> Look I don't really care who Tobi is at this point. But Kagami is awesome for the plot. You guys are just mad.


Awesome for the plot? The final villain; source of all this mystery; someone called the darkness and the harbinger of destruction; someone responsible for the deaths of both parents of the main character, is going to be some random one paneled character that isn't connected to anyone relevant to the plot. That's shit writing and would ruin the entire plot and derail it.





> Also Tobi said: "Eye was taking Cannabis under a bridge". It was mistranslated as: "I got the eye from the kannabi bridge."


So why was a picture of Kannabi bridge shown?


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

Jay's right. Tobi was probably smoking some herb below the bridge where Obito and Kakashi fought and he unlocked his sharingan there because of some emotions the weed cooked up.

Best theory yet.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

> Eye was taking Cannabis under a bridge



What the hell does that even mean?  Looks to me like you're twisting words all around to fit what you want it to say.


----------



## Jay. (Aug 19, 2012)

> Newbie
> Academy Student
> 
> Join Date: Aug 2012
> ...




>Telling people to leave


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Jay. said:


> >Telling people to leave



What does that have anything to do with it?
If you are working against the point of the post, why do you need to be here?
You obviously are here for the wrong reasons.  We're trying to use factual evidence from the series to come to a conclusion, yet you are just throwing out random non sense with no validity.

Have a nice day.


----------



## Jay. (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Hmm...not sure how much everyone here considers the naruto wikia to be a legitimate information source, but from what I read there about Kamui, it's available to anyone with a mangekyou that trains enough.  This is obviously not stated in the manga, but my guess is that it was in one of the data books.  Also:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





son_michael said:


> how does this help your argument exactly?





ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Rephrase this. I can't even tell what you meant by that.
> 
> 
> Awesome for the plot? The final villain; source of all this mystery; someone called the darkness and the harbinger of destruction; someone responsible for the deaths of both parents of the main character, is going to be some random one paneled character that isn't connected to anyone relevant to the plot. That's shit writing and would ruin the entire plot and derail it.
> ...



You guys bet your lives on Obito right?


----------



## son_michael (Aug 19, 2012)

Jay. said:


> You guys bet your lives on Obito right?



that picture looks like kagami in a mask. Doesn't look like tobi at all.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Lmao.  Nope, not betting anything on anyone.  I'll accept anyone reasonable as a viable candidate.  Kagami is not reasonable.  Your photoshopped picture proves nothing, troll.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Jay. said:


> You guys bet your lives on Obito right?



Nice try kid.
I don't think he's Obito.

I think he's someone else that was overlooked. 
or an experiment by Orochimaru.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

This is why Kagami theorists fail. You don't use images from the anime as evidence. That's just not how it works. The fact that you have to take images of Kagami from the ANIME and compare it with images of Tobi from the MANGA should tell you something about your theory.


----------



## Jay. (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Lmao.  Nope, not betting anything on anyone.  I'll accept anyone reasonable as a viable candidate.  Kagami is not reasonable.  Your photoshopped picture proves nothing, troll.



Thanks darkprince979 for agreeing with me.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Lmao, obitouchiha, why would you even acknowledge that picture on the left as from the manga when it's clearly a photoshopped version of the pic on the right.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Lmao, obitouchiha, why would you even acknowledge that picture on the left as from the manga when it's clearly a photoshopped version of the pic on the right.



lol, Right?

Anyone can photoshop a picture and call it evidence.
Fact is. There's a possibility it COULD be Kagami.
Though he's vastly underdeveloped and would create a riot within the community. Tobi's unmasking needs a WOW factor. Kagami just doesn't have it.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:
			
		

> Lmao, obitouchiha, why would you even acknowledge that picture on the left as from the manga when it's clearly a photoshopped version of the pic on the right.


I should have phrased it differently, lol.

I know the one on the left is photoshopped. I'm talking about how Kagami theorists always use anime images of Kagami when comparing him to Tobi, and they almost always use manga images of Tobi.


----------



## Jay. (Aug 19, 2012)

So guys why do you think Kagami pretended to be Madara?


----------



## KingJiraiya (Aug 19, 2012)

For people who think Tobi is Kagami, Could you explain to me: what does he have to do with getting the eye at the battle of Kannabi bridge?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

KingJiraiya said:


> For people who think Tobi is Kagami, Could you explain to me: what does he have to do with getting the eye at the battle of Kannabi bridge?



Exactly. Kagami was alive back in the 1st and 2nd days. Why would he wait to attack all the way until Obito's death? Second, Tobi has two different sharingan. If he already had a sharingan, why would he take Obitos? Sure Obitos sharingan are poweful, but that's shaky at best.


----------



## Zeno (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> *spoiler*
> Seeing the new chapter 597 really has me wondering.
> Who is Tobi?! I've been wondering for awhile, but now we have new clues.
> He has Obito's eye that was supposedly crushed during the battle at Kannabi Bridge. So, how did he manage that? He was also old enough to fight Minato, which strongly implies he's not obito. There's no way 1 year of training would make him that powerful. He's not Madara considering he's been brought back and KILLED AGAIN.
> ...





Fureikusu Kira said:


> What if, Tobi is obitos body mixed with cells from the first from an experiment done by *Orochimaru*?



People are beginning to see the truth!


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

KingJiraiya said:


> For people who think Tobi is Kagami, Could you explain to me: what does he have to do with getting the eye at the battle of Kannabi bridge?



He's a completely blank character, therefore you can come up with anything to put him in any situation.  There are no facts regarding him, save when he was alive and what team he was on.  They can give him any motivation they want, any connections they want, any history they want.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> People are beginning to see the truth!



I mean, in all fairness. Orochimaru has been one of THE MOST connected villains in this show. Then he get's killed by Sasuke, and that's it?
What about all the curse marks? What about all of the things he started? He just ends like that? pft.

What if Kabuto has a way to reanimate Orochimaru out of the curse marks? 
He was Orochimarus student for the longest time. Why would Orochimaru teach him all of that for no reason?


----------



## Zeno (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> I mean, in all fairness. Orochimaru has been one of THE MOST connected villains in this show. Then he get's killed by Sasuke, and that's it?
> What about all the curse marks? What about all of the things he started? He just ends like that? pft.
> 
> What if Kabuto has a way to reanimate Orochimaru out of the curse marks?
> He was Orochimarus student for the longest time. Why would Orochimaru teach him all of that for no reason?



Me thinks you haven't been reading the latest manga chapters.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> I mean, in all fairness. Orochimaru has been one of THE MOST connected villains in this show. Then he get's killed by Sasuke, and that's it?
> What about all the curse marks? What about all of the things he started? He just ends like that? pft.
> 
> What if Kabuto has a way to reanimate Orochimaru out of the curse marks?
> He was Orochimarus student for the longest time. Why would Orochimaru teach him all of that for no reason?



If you're really serious, then you obviously haven't read some of the latest manga chapters.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Jay. said:


> Thanks darkprince979 for agreeing with me.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Izuna also makes a LOT of sense. He was missing his eyes because they were taken by Madara. Which would explain how he knew so much, why he claimed to be Madara, how he's so powerful, how he has all of the knowledge, his age, and a lot of other questions. 
Izuna is a pretty good choice, but there's still the experiment theory.

Fuuuuuuuuu, I'm stuck.


----------



## Jay. (Aug 19, 2012)

I wonder why Kagami hates Konoha so much.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

They probably criminalized marijuana. Too many ninjas were getting high under bridges.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> If you're really serious, then you obviously haven't read some of the latest manga chapters.



My bad. I actually have not.
I've read from around 560 to 597. I got busy and fell off in the earlier chapters. 
I know Kabuto has Oro's cells and everything, but I haven't had a chance to really sit down and read it.

Really, I'm stuck between experiment and Izuna. 
So, even if Oro's gone forever, he could have left behind a lot of crap. 
He was trained by Hiruzen, after all.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> My bad. I actually have not.
> I've read from around 560 to 597. I got busy and fell off in the earlier chapters.
> I know Kabuto has Oro's cells and everything, but I haven't had a chance to really sit down and read it.
> 
> ...



Well, if you don't mind spoilers I could tell you here.


----------



## KingJiraiya (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> He's a completely blank character, therefore you can come up with anything to put him in any situation.  There are no facts regarding him, save when he was alive and what team he was on.  They can give him any motivation they want, any connections they want, any history they want.



I guess that plausible. If that were to happen, it just seems to be to be a bit of a cop out, to make the villain someone completely unknown till the reveal


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:
			
		

> Izuna also makes a LOT of sense. He was missing his eyes because they were taken by Madara. Which would explain how he knew so much, why he claimed to be Madara, how he's so powerful, how he has all of the knowledge, his age, and a lot of other questions.
> Izuna is a pretty good choice, but there's still the experiment theory.
> 
> Fuuuuuuuuu, I'm stuck.


Izuna would have no reason to wear a mask. Plus, Madara knows who Tobi is and said Izuna is dead. 

And how can Tobi be an experiment? That makes no sense.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

KingJiraiya said:


> I guess that plausible. If that were to happen, it just seems to be to be a bit of a cop out, to make the villain someone completely unknown till the reveal



That's the biggest argument against him.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

KingJiraiya said:


> I guess that plausible. If that were to happen, it just seems to be to be a bit of a cop out, to make the villain someone completely unknown till the reveal



Yeah, that's major downside to Kagami.



darkprinc979 said:


> Well, if you don't mind spoilers I could tell you here.



Go for it, man. I've played all the games and read a bit of the newer chapters. I'm not clear on all the details, but nothing would surprise me at this point.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Izuna would have no reason to wear a mask. Plus, Madara knows who tobi is and said Izuna is dead.
> 
> And how can Tobi be an experiment? That makes no sense.



Makes no sense? He has a zetsu arm, or at least some weird ass arm.
His arm was blown off and didn't bleed, but oozed some white liquid type substance. Very reminiscent of white zetsu. Orochimaru likes to experiment on people as seen from Yamato. How else would Tobi have the first's cells?


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Yeah, that's major downside to Kagami.
> 
> 
> 
> Go for it, man. I've played all the games and read a bit of the newer chapters. I'm not clear on all the details, but nothing would surprise me at this point.



Spoiler tag, just in case there's someone here that is also behind but doesn't want them.


*Spoiler*: __ 



So, Itachi has put Kabuto out of comission and forced him to get rid of the edo tenseis.  Madara is op and knew how to stay anyways.  Sasuke wanted to talk to "the one who knows everything, and pulled Orochimaru out of Anko's cursed mark, after which they walked off into the sunset with Juugo and Suigetsu for info.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

> Makes no sense? He has a zetsu arm, or at least some weird ass arm.
> His arm was blown off and didn't bleed, but oozed some white liquid type substance. Very reminiscent of white zetsu. Orochimaru likes to experiment on people as seen from Yamato. *How else would Tobi have the first's cells?*


Madara gave them to him?

Also, how would Orochimaru come into possession of Zetsu goo?

plus, it would be anti-climactic and there's no way the final villain is an experiment. He has to be an actual person.

And if you don't mind spoilers... Sasuke resurrects Orochimaru from Anko's cursed seal.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Spoiler tag, just in case there's someone here that is also behind but doesn't want them.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Okay. I knew about Madara, who's dead now anyway. I knew roughly about Kabuto. I did NOT know about the Sasuke/Orochimaru thing. What chapter is that?


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Okay. I knew about Madara, who's dead now anyway. I knew roughly about Kabuto. I did NOT know about the Sasuke/Orochimaru thing. What chapter is that?



That happened in chapter 593.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Madara gave them to him?
> 
> Also, how would Orochimaru come into possession of Zetsu goo?
> 
> ...



Why would Madara give Tobi the 1st's cells if he wasn't close to him?
Orochimaru was a lot more connected than we thought, so it's possible.

It's just a theory, I'm not dead set on it. The fact that Tobi is so powerful does defeat the idea of him being an experiment to a point, but it's one of the only options left.

Facts: He has Obitos eye, a zetsu-like arm, older or scarred face, connected to the story.



darkprinc979 said:


> That happened in chapter 593.



Reading now.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Why would Madara give Tobi the 1st's cells if he wasn't close to him?
> Orochimaru was a lot more connected than we thought, so it's possible.


Tobi and Madara were partners...

And Tobi is alot more connected to he story then Orochimaru btw.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Why would Madara give Tobi the 1st's cells if he wasn't close to him?
> Orochimaru was a lot more connected than we thought, so it's possible.
> 
> It's just a theory, I'm not dead set on it. The fact that Tobi is so powerful does defeat the idea of him being an experiment to a point, but it's one of the only options left.
> ...



I have a theory as to who it could be, one that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread at all.  However, as I stated before there are certain things that have been said/shown in the manga that would leave people outright dismissing it.  That said, the things we've seen/heard are questionable to me, and thus my theory.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi and Madara were partners...
> 
> And Tobi is alot more connected to he story then Orochimaru btw.



That's debatable. Oro's been around since part 1, and was even brought back.
If he was less important than Tobi, they'd leave him alone and start focusing on nothing but Tobi. 

When did Madara EVER have a partner?



darkprinc979 said:


> I have a theory as to who it could be, one that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread at all.  However, as I stated before there are certain things that have been said/shown in the manga that would leave people outright dismissing it.  That said, the things we've seen/heard are questionable to me, and thus my theory.



...being?
You just kind of left it there.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> That's debatable. Oro's been around since part 1, and was even brought back.
> If he was less important than Tobi, they'd leave him alone and start focusing on nothing but Tobi.
> 
> When did Madara EVER have a partner?



He hasn't been shown explicitly having a partner, but it's a necessity.  He knows about the eye of the moon plan, he knows who Tobi is and he knows who Nagato was.  Also, Tobi knows about what's on that tablet in the Uchiha compound, and Madara is the only sensible one to have read the entirety of said tablet, since it requires the rinnegan, and Nagato would have no reason to know of, or care about that tablet.

Also, I have no intention of stating my theory here.  I have plenty of evidence, but I'd rather watch everyone argue over the other theories lol.  Besides, I've done some arguing over that theory in another forum anyways, don't feel like doing it again atm.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:
			
		

> That's debatable. Oro's been around since part 1, and was even brought back.
> If he was less important than Tobi, they'd leave him alone and start focusing on nothing but Tobi.


Tobi is overall more relevant than Oro. Tobi was responsible for the deaths of Naruto's parents, Kurama's attack on Konoha, took part in the uchiha massacre, worked with Uchiha Madara, knows alot about the history of the shinobi world, and is FV (presumably).



> When did Madara EVER have a partner?


Since he met Tobi.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> That's debatable. Oro's been around since part 1, and was even brought back.
> If he was less important than Tobi, they'd leave him alone and start focusing on nothing but Tobi.
> 
> When did Madara EVER have a partner?


......... 
Its confirmed in the manga that Tobi and Madara knew each other and in the interview, they are partners obviously.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Also after just reading 593, Orochimaru claimed he worked with Tobi. 
So they are definitely connected, so it's not far off that Orochimaru experimented on him.


----------



## Easley (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Izuna would have no reason to wear a mask.


To be fair, why does Obito need to wear a mask? Is it entirely for the reader's benefit? No one in Akatsuki would recognize him... in fact, the only person who has a chance is Kakashi. So, he wears a mask to hide from one man. 



> Plus, Madara knows who Tobi is and said Izuna is dead.


Maybe lying runs in the family?


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

> Also after just reading 593, Orochimaru claimed he worked with Tobi.
> So they are definitely connected, so it's not far off that Orochimaru experimented on him.


He never said he worked with Tobi. He said "This war was started by somebody else. I have no interest in it." That doesn't sound like something his partner would say. Whereas Madara was enjoying the war.

Then, "He was manipulated by Itachi. He's far different from when Tobi and I were using him."
Al that's confirmed is that Oro knows of Tobi.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> He hasn't been shown explicitly having a partner, but it's a necessity.  He knows about the eye of the moon plan, he knows who Tobi is and he knows who Nagato was.  Also, Tobi knows about what's on that tablet in the Uchiha compound, and Madara is the only sensible one to have read the entirety of said tablet, since it requires the rinnegan, and Nagato would have no reason to know of, or care about that tablet.
> 
> Also, I have no intention of stating my theory here.  I have plenty of evidence, but I'd rather watch everyone argue over the other theories lol.  Besides, I've done some arguing over that theory in another forum anyways, don't feel like doing it again atm.



That's true, Tobi was also never shown entering the village or more specifically the hideout, so he would have not read it himself.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi is overall more relevant than Oro. Tobi was responsible for the deaths of Naruto's parents, Kurama's attack on Konoha, took part in the uchiha massacre, worked with Uchiha Madara, knows alot about the history of the shinobi world, and is FV (presumably).
> 
> Since he met Tobi.



You can't just say, "since he met Tobi". If it's an assumption or educated guess, you can't pretend it's fact.

Yeah, Tobi is really connected, but so was Oro. 
They also worked together. I agree Tobi was more connected though.
Which goes against him being Kagami, or Obito.



loool3 said:


> .........
> Its confirmed in the manga that Tobi and Madara knew each other and in the interview, they are partners obviously.



It was never confirmed they were ACTUALLY partners. They have worked together, but everyone in the ninja world is connected in some way or another. That's saying Tobi was alive when Madara originally was, and if that's true, who else could he be but Izuna?



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He never said he worked with Tobi. He said "This war was started by somebody else. I have no interest in it." That doesn't sound like something his partner would say. Whereas Madara was enjoying the war.
> 
> Then, "He was manipulated by Itachi. He's far different from when Tobi and I were using him."
> Al that's confirmed is that Oro knows of Tobi.



Yes he did. 
He said that he and Tobi manipulated him. 
Or something along those lines.

Whoops, didn't see the last part.
Tobi and I, implies they worked together or had some connection.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Easley said:


> To be fair, why does Obito need to wear a mask? Is it entirely for the reader's benefit? No one in Akatsuki would recognize him... in fact, the only person who has a chance is Kakashi. So, he wears a mask to hide from one man.


There are alot of people in Konoha who would recognize him. And he couldn't pull off his Madara act without the mask, now could he? Plus, I don't think he'd want people to see his half-scarred face. There are also alot of people in Konoha who would recognize him. (Guy, Kurenai, Asuma). So he has alot of reasons to wear a mask.




> Maybe lying runs in the family?


Izuna's name means "Least weasel". If anyone's the liar of the two, it's him.

wait.......

..........fuck.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> It was never confirmed they were ACTUALLY partners. They have worked together, but everyone in the ninja world is connected in some way or another. That's saying Tobi was alive when Madara originally was, and if that's true, who else could he be but Izuna?


Why would Madara leave everything to Tobi if they aren't partners lol.
And Izuna is dead, its been confirmed a few times already, Madara was sad when he said that so that means also that he isnt ressurected.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He never said he worked with Tobi. He said "This war was started by somebody else. I have no interest in it." That doesn't sound like something his partner would say. Whereas Madara was enjoying the war.
> 
> Then, "He was manipulated by Itachi. He's far different from when Tobi and I were using him."
> Al that's confirmed is that Oro knows of Tobi.



By stating that he's "nobody"  Tobi is essentially saying that who he was is dead, and at the same time saying that the mask *is* his face now.  He's not doing it to hide his identity, but that mask has become his identity.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> There are alot of people in Konoha who would recognize him. And he couldn't pull off his Madara act without the mask, now could he? Plus, I don't think he'd want people to see his half-scarred face. There are also alot of people in Konoha who would recognize him. (Guy, Kurenai, Asuma). So he has alot of reasons to wear a mask.
> 
> 
> Izuna's name means "Least weasel". If anyone's the liar of the two, it's him.
> ...



Technically, whoever Tobi is has a reason for the mask regardless.
He wants to be known as Madara. Without the mask people could clearly see he isn't, thereby debunking his whole ruse.



loool3 said:


> Why would Madara leave everything to Tobi if they aren't partners lol.



Exactly.
Who would Madara trust enough for that?


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

> Yes he did.
> He said that he and Tobi manipulated him.
> Or something along those lines.


He never said that they manipulayed Sasuke TOGETHER, now did he?
Also, Tobi and Madara were partners. Madara called Tobi *him* and said that things didn't seem to be going according to *plan*.

They also both want to do the Moon's Eye Plan.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Exactly.
> Who would Madara trust enough for that?


Because they are partners.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He never said that they manipulayed Sasuke TOGETHER, now did he?
> Also, Tobi and Madara were partners. Madara called Tobi *him* and said that things didn't seem to be going according to *plan*.
> 
> They also both want to do the Moon's Eye Plan.



Again, who would Madara trust enough to work with for the master plan.
Overall who would be powerful enough for that? 
Obito wasn't alive then. Kagami is underdeveloped. The experiment theory is just an idea. 

Who else but Izuna?


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

And let's not forget that Tobi has more than once cursed Orochimaru for seeing through his plans, and once even going so far as to question just how much Orochimaru knew about his plans.  He wouldn't think that way about someone he was working with.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Because they are partners.



Again, who would he trust enough to be partners with?


----------



## Zeno (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Spoiler tag, just in case there's someone here that is also behind but doesn't want them.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



FUCKING NINJAD AGAIN!


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Again, who would Madara trust enough to work with for the master plan.
> Overall who would be powerful enough for that?
> Obito wasn't alive then. Kagami is underdeveloped. The experiment theory is just an idea.
> 
> Who else but Izuna?


It isnt impossible what your trying to claim here.
Instead of assuming that Madara wouldnt partner with anyone up try to find an answer for the fact that Izuna is confirmed a few times.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> And let's not forget that Tobi has more than once cursed Orochimaru for seeing through his plans, and once even going so far as to question just how much Orochimaru knew about his plans.  He wouldn't think that way about someone he was working with.



Yeah, Oro's pretty much been debunked now. lmao

I've always been leaning more towards Izuna ever since I heard about him though.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:
			
		

> Again, who would Madara trust enough to work with for the master plan.


Tobi.


> Overall who would be powerful enough for that?


Tobi.



> Obito wasn't alive then.


How do you know when the plan was formed? 



> Kagami is underdeveloped.


Kagami doesn't even fucking exist, lol. 



> The experiment theory is just an idea.


Why would Madara team up with an experiment?



> Who else but Izuna?


He teamed up with someone who's dead?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi.
> Tobi.
> 
> How do you know when the plan was formed?
> ...



1. Obito got powerful enough to fight Minato in a year?
Really?

2. That's true.

3. Like I said. Debunked.

4. Izuna may not be dead. Madara "supposedly died" at the final valley. That wasn't true.


----------



## Zeno (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> And let's not forget that Tobi has more than once cursed Orochimaru for seeing through his plans, and once even going so far as to question just how much Orochimaru knew about his plans.  He wouldn't think that way about someone he was working with.



It's all a facade to get you to think that Oro is irrelevant, when in reality, Oro is Tobi.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> It's all a facade to get you to think that Oro is irrelevant, when in reality, Oro is Tobi.



Kishi is good at that.
He's not Oro. 
There's still a SLIGHT chance they are connected, though.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> 1. Obito got powerful enough to fight Minato in a year?
> Really?


Actually, it was more like 2-3 years. Plus he would have been trained by Madara. So basically, you're saying that Naruto couldn't have gotten strong enough in 2-3 years to fight biju? Really?



> 2. That's true.


I thought so!



> 3. Like I said. Debunked.






> 4. Izuna may not be dead. Madara "supposedly died" at the final valley. That wasn't true.


We saw him in a coffin. The databook says he died in battle. Madara knows who Tobi is and said that his brother is dead and that all that remains of him is his eyes.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Kishi is good at that.
> He's not Oro.
> There's still a SLIGHT chance they are connected, though.



Well, they pretty much have to be connected in some way shape or form, even if they haven't directly met.  Oro can't see through plans he doesn't know exist, after all.

Although, I do have to say that Oro is pretty stupid to be dismissing Tobi and his war, considering if Tobi wins Oro's ambitions go right out the window.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Actually, it was more like 2-3 years. Plus he would have been trained by Madara. So basically, you're saying that Naruto couldn't have gotten strong enough in 2-4 years to fight biju? Really?
> 
> i thought so.
> 
> ...



No. It was a year. Look at the timeline. 
Kakashi is 26. Naruto is 12. 
Naruto was a baby when Tobi attacked. 26 - 12 = 14. 
Obito died when he was 13. Kakashi and Obito are the same age. 
Meaning Tobi would have been 14. That's only one year.
You expect me to believe a CHUNIN got powerful enough in ONE year to fight a Kage? 


No.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> No. It was a year. Look at the timeline.
> Kakashi is 26. Naruto is 12.
> Naruto was a baby when Tobi attacked. 26 - 12 = 14.
> Obito died when he was 13. Kakashi and Obito are the same age.
> ...


Your just ridiculously overestimating that fight like anyone else.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Your just ridiculously overestimating that fight like anyone else.



Overestimating?
HE SUMMONED THE NINE TAILS.
Minato could BARELY beat him.
Kakashi beat Obito's ass as children, yet couldn't touch Minato.

Again, where's the logic in that?



darkprinc979 said:


> Well, they pretty much have to be connected in some way shape or form, even if they haven't directly met.  Oro can't see through plans he doesn't know exist, after all.
> 
> Although, I do have to say that Oro is pretty stupid to be dismissing Tobi and his war, considering if Tobi wins Oro's ambitions go right out the window.



Yeah.
Oro's probably just lying.
I don't know anymore.

Tobi wants peace, Oro wants destruction, so....


----------



## Easley (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> There are alot of people in Konoha who would recognize him. And he couldn't pull off his Madara act without the mask, now could he? Plus, I don't think he'd want people to see his half-scarred face. There are also alot of people in Konoha who would recognize him. (Guy, Kurenai, Asuma). So he has alot of reasons to wear a mask.


Yes, acting as Madara he's going to need that mask, but when he joined Akatsuki as Tobi there wasn't much reason - unless he concealed himself from Itachi? Did he know who Tobi was?




> Izuna's name means "Least weasel". If anyone's the liar of the two, it's him.
> 
> wait.......
> 
> ..........fuck.


heh, I don't trust any of these guys. I hope Kishimoto gives us some straight answers soon.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Your just ridiculously overestimating that fight like anyone else.



So, you're saying that someone like say, Kiba should be able to fight the fourth Hokage one on one and not be massacred?


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

> No. It was a year. Look at the timeline.
> Kakashi is 26. Naruto is 12.
> Naruto was a baby when Tobi attacked. 26 - 12 = 14.
> Obito died when he was 13. Kakashi and Obito are the same age.
> Meaning Tobi would have been 14. That's only one year.


Kakashi would have been closer to 15 at the time, and Obito was a little older than Kakashi going by heir birthdays, putting him at 15-16.

Also, look at Sasuke who masterd Susano'o in a DAY. And Naruto who mastered Sage mode in like a week.




> You expect me to believe a CHUNIN got powerful enough in ONE year to fight a Kage?
> 
> 
> No.


You expect me to believe a GENIN got powerful enough in 2-3 years to fight bijuu?

No.


----------



## Jay. (Aug 19, 2012)

Guys it's Kagami using the rebirth jutsu on Obito's body!!!!


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Overestimating?
> HE SUMMONED THE NINE TAILS.


Give a fodder Senju/Uchiha Dna and they can controle the allmighty Kyuubi like Kishi himself stated at Danzou vs Sasuke fight + MS grant the ability to controle the Kyuubi, should be obvious by now that Tobi has both of them.


> Minato could BARELY beat him.


I didn't see Tobi givin gMinato a killing fight only the Kyuubi.


> Kakashi beat Obito's ass as children, yet couldn't touch Minato.


S/T, give anyone that ability and they do the same.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Easley said:


> Yes, acting as Madara he's going to need that mask, but when he joined Akatsuki as Tobi there wasn't much reason - unless he concealed himself from Itachi? Did he know who Tobi was?
> 
> 
> heh, I don't trust any of these guys. I hope Kishimoto gives us some straight answers soon.



Tobi had his plan since before Yahiko started Akatsuki.
He would have always needed the mask.


598, man. 
That's when we'll probably see Tobi's face.
He is fighting Naruto in kyubi mode or whatever.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> So, you're saying that someone like say, Kiba should be able to fight the fourth Hokage one on one and not be massacred?


With Tobi's S/T, yes........
Just vanish here and there, how will you get killed in that way, and once your almost beaten start trash talking and tell your epic lines to the kage and run away.
Wait didnt Tobi do that also?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Kakashi would have been closer to 15 at the time, and Obito was a little older than Kakashi going by heir birthdays, putting him at 15-16.
> 
> Also, look at Sasuke who masterd Susano'o in a DAY. And Naruto who mastered Sage mode in like a week.
> 
> ...



No, look at the timeline.
Naruto is only 12 in part 1. He was a new born during Tobis attack.
Obito and Kakashi are the same age according to the data book.
26 - 12 = 14


There's just no way. 

Naruto is the son of Minato AND he has the 9 tails.
Of course he can do it.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

Beginning of Part 2 Sasuke with an Tobi's S/T technique would have done far better than Tobi when fighting the 4th. The fight argument is worth *nothing*. Use something better than the fight argument. There are far better arguments to use against Tobito than that.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> No, look at the timeline.
> Naruto is only 12 in part 1. He was a new born during Tobis attack.
> Obito and Kakashi are the same age according to the data book.
> 26 - 12 = 14
> ...


lol, thats a really weak excuse.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

> You expect me to believe a GENIN got powerful enough in 2-3 years to fight bijuu?



You mean a genin with natural chakra reserves larger than Kakashi, a jounin, plus the strongest of all bijuu sealed inside him?  Makes just a tiny bit of difference, don't you think?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Give a fodder Senju/Uchiha Dna and they can controle the allmighty Kyuubi like Kishi himself stated at Danzou vs Sasuke fight + MS grant the ability to controle the Kyuubi, should be obvious by now that Tobi has both of them.
> 
> I didn't see Tobi givin gMinato a killing fight only the Kyuubi.
> 
> S/T, give anyone that ability and they do the same.



If Tobi was Obito, he would have been killed in seconds against Minato.
No questions. His space time intangibility only lasts for 5 minutes.

No way Obito is fighting Minato at 14 with one year of training.
Unless he had powers given to him or was experimented on.


----------



## posternojutsu (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> No, look at the timeline.
> Naruto is only 12 in part 1. He was a new born during Tobis attack.
> Obito and Kakashi are the same age according to the data book.
> 26 - 12 = 14
> ...



Obito is an Uchiha and had Sharingan and was an actual Chunin unlike Naruto. Really you have no basis to say there is no way when Uchiha wank is the strongest thing in this manga.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> lol, thats a really weak excuse.



lol, how?
Naruto is the main character along with the 9 tailed beast sealed inside him.
Obito is a regular Uchiha.

Come on now.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> You mean a genin with natural chakra reserves larger than Kakashi, a jounin, plus the strongest of all bijuu sealed inside him?  Makes just a tiny bit of difference, don't you think?


Another pathetic excuse lol.
Having a lot of chakra's doesnt make you be able to beat the Bijuu as long as you dont have the skills for it.
And the MS can pretty much be compared as a Jinchiruke, one has the Bijuu's extreme power while the other has the sage extreme powers.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Obito and Kakashi are the same age according to the data book.


When did the databook state that Obito and Kakashi were the same age during Gaiden?



> Naruto is the son of Minato AND he has the 9 tails.
> Of course he can do it.


Obito is an Uchiha AND has a super powerful S/T jutsu and Mangekyou. Of course he can do it.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

> With Tobi's S/T, yes........



So, somehow within the space of a year Obito managed to gain enough reflexes and experience to fight someone with a decade more experience than him?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

posternojutsu said:


> Obito is an Uchiha and had Sharingan and was an actual Chunin unlike Naruto. Really you have no basis to say there is no way when Uchiha wank is the strongest thing in this manga.



Naruto has been confirmed to be on Kage level.
He has the 9 tails. He's the son of Minato.


Obito on the other hand, is just Obito.
A regular Chunin.

THERE IS NO WAY.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> lol, how?
> Naruto is the main character along with the 9 tailed beast sealed inside him.
> Obito is a regular Uchiha.
> 
> Come on now.


So, Tobi is one of the main villains, which means he started being strong at one point. 



darkprinc979 said:


> So, somehow within the space of a year Obito managed to gain enough reflexes and experience to fight someone with a decade more experience than him?


Should i remind you to Sasuke MS, Naruto's sage mode?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> When did the databook state that Obito and Kakashi were the same age during Gaiden?
> 
> Obito is an Uchiha AND has a super powerful S/T jutsu and Mangekyou. Of course he can do it.



He just activated his sharingan at the time of death.
In a year he managed to get mangekyo? 
Really?

It says Kakashi and Obito were both 13 at the time they were teamed up.



loool3 said:


> So, Tobi is one of the main villains, which means he started being strong at one point.



lol, In a years time?
no.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Naruto has been confirmed to be on Kage level.
> He has the 9 tails. He's the son of Minato.
> 
> 
> ...


And again your just assuming that, if we just look only at Nagato back then he was also nothing he was even worst then Obito and look were he ended up. 



Fureikusu Kira said:


> lol, In a years time?
> no.


Yes. 
Go back and watch Nagato's history when he was even worst then Obito.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> And again your just assuming that, if we just look only at Nagato back then he was also nothing he was even worst then Obito and look were he ended up.



WHAT?!
Nagato was a child prodigy.
He was born with the rinnegan.

Do you even read the manga?


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Naruto has been confirmed to be on Kage level.
> He has the 9 tails. He's the son of Minato.
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yeah. A regular chunin who awakened his sharingan with TWO TOMOE and used it skilfully upon first use. Obito's potential was far beyond that of the average Uchiha.

Really, WHAT did Tobi DO to Minato?!

He used chains. Not that hard.

he controlled Kurama. ANYONE with Uchiha and Senju DNA can do that.

he used Space-Time. Well, it's his MS ability. And Sasuke mastered Susano'o in a DAY.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Should i remind you to Sasuke MS, Naruto's sage mode?



And where did Obito get this fictional MS?  That is what you're implying isn't it?  Itachi activated his out of guilt, Sasuke activated his out of guilt.  We don't know for sure how Kakashi activated his, but considering his life of *regret*, the logical conclusion is that he activated his through guilt as well.  Now then, where is this source of such massive guilt that Obito awakened MS?


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> WHAT?!
> Nagato was a child prodigy.
> He was born with the rinnegan.
> 
> Do you even read the manga?


So?
He was even weaker then Obito, he turned out destroying Konoha, dont suddenly change your point.
Tobi/to is the villain which means he also got his strenght at one point as Nagato.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:
			
		

> WHAT?!
> Nagato was a child prodigy.
> He was born with the rinnegan.
> 
> Do you even read the manga?


BORN with the Rinnegan?

Did YOU read the manga?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> So?
> He was even weaker then Obito, he turned out destroying Konoha, dont suddenly change your point.
> Tobi/to is the villain which means he also got his strenght at one point as Nagato.



Nagato was never weaker than Obito.
EVER. 

Obito would have had to have had quite a bit of guilt to active MS.
He told Kakashi that he was dying happy.
How would that get him MS?


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> And where did Obito get this fictional MS?  That is what you're implying isn't it?  Itachi activated his out of guilt, Sasuke activated his out of guilt.  We don't know for sure how Kakashi activated his, but considering his life of *regret*, the logical conclusion is that he activated his through guilt as well.  Now then, where is this source of such massive guilt that Obito awakened MS?


Rin died= MS, only that simple reason makes him already awakening the MS. 
You guys use logic please before posting.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> BORN with the Rinnegan?
> 
> Did YOU read the manga?



Source, please.  Nagato was hiding his hair most of the time, thus we don't know for a fact he was born with it, or if he had it on permanently.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> BORN with the Rinnegan?
> 
> Did YOU read the manga?



You mean when Tobi "claimed" to have given him the rinnegan?
Though, it was never proven?

How would Tobi have rinnegan to give him?
ESPECIALLY if he's Obito? In fact, Obito wasn't even planned at the time Nagato was born.



loool3 said:


> Rin died= MS, only that simple reason makes him already awakening the MS.
> You guys use logic please before posting.



Use your logic man.
Obito told Kakashi he left the duty of protecting Rin to him
There was no regret.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Rin died= MS, only that simple reason makes him already awakening the MS.
> You guys use logic please before posting.



Rin died after Obito did.  Therefore, you're making an assumption.  Also, now you're saying that Obito was good, but somehow didn't go back to Konoha?


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Nagato was never weaker than Obito.
> EVER.
> 
> Obito would have had to have had quite a bit of guilt to active MS.
> ...


Yeah was, if he survived it he simply could have turned his personality like every single character in Naruto did that already.

Ok ok, Nagato was even strong as Obito, so he still ended up destroying Konoha, your statement was that nobody besides Naruto could gain such a massive strenght increase but i disproved that here.


----------



## posternojutsu (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> WHAT?!
> Nagato was a child prodigy.
> He was born with the rinnegan.
> 
> Do you even read the manga?



So if we do what you say and re-read the manga what do we see? Those with magic-eyeballs or bloodline limite normally are above most ninja. Nagato was a kid with no ninja training who was able to kill a chunin because of his freakin eyeballs. Obito goes from being useless to stabbing invisible people in 2 seconds flat. The manga itself tells us that if you own Sharingan or Rinnegan you are a beast regardless...shit even fodder Uchiha are considered above average and they aren't even named characters. 

The manga has made statements before about kids being able to be much younger than Kakashi and yet stronger than him. So everyone arguing that 1, 2 or 3 years isn't enough are really the ones not reading the manga. Does that mean Tobi = Obito..no, but it isn't going to be  wrong because  of "DERP he is to young and didn't have enough time to get this strong"


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Yeah was, if he survived it he simply could have turned his personality like every single character in Naruto did that already.
> 
> Ok ok, Nagato was even strong as Obito, so he still ended up destroying Konoha, your statement was that nobody besides Naruto could gain such a massive strenght increase but i disproved that here.



I never said that.
I said there's no way OBITO in particular is getting strong enough to have MS and fight Minato in one year.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Use your logic man.
> Obito told Kakashi he left the duty of protecting Rin to him
> There was no regret.


Yes, do you even read the manga?
Tobi is bitching about Kakashi not being able to fullfill his duty the last chapter, of course he ends up with regret if such thing happens.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Yeah was, if he survived it he simply could have turned his personality like every single character in Naruto did that already.
> 
> Ok ok, Nagato was even strong as Obito, so he still ended up destroying Konoha, your statement was that nobody besides Naruto could gain such a massive strenght increase but i disproved that here.



You're ignoring the "in a year" part.  Naruto took two and a half years of training, plus another ungodly amount of years worth of training with clones to get rasenshuriken, plus however long it took him to get sage mode.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> It says Kakashi and Obito were both 13 at the time they were teamed up.


Source?



darkprinc979 said:


> And where did Obito get this fictional MS?  That is what you're implying isn't it?  Itachi activated his out of guilt, Sasuke activated his out of guilt.  We don't know for sure how Kakashi activated his, but considering his life of *regret*, the logical conclusion is that he activated his through guilt as well.  Now then, where is this source of such massive guilt that Obito awakened MS?


You get MS by feeling the pain of losing the closest person to you. obito really thought he was going to die and lose his friends, so that might have caused his MS to awaken. That, or  he got it when he found out Rin died.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> Nagato was never weaker than Obito.
> EVER.
> 
> Obito would have had to have had quite a bit of guilt to active MS.
> ...


Died happy? He was filled with regrets. He wasn't happy AT ALL.



darkprinc979 said:


> Source, please.  Nagato was hiding his hair most of the time, thus we don't know for a fact he was born with it, or if he had it on permanently.


Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

posternojutsu said:


> So if we do what you say and re-read the manga what do we see? Those with magic-eyeballs or bloodline limite normally are above most ninja. Nagato was a kid with no ninja training who was able to kill a chunin because of his freakin eyeballs. Obito goes from being useless to stabbing invisible people in 2 seconds flat. The manga itself tells us that if you own Sharingan or Rinnegan you are a beast regardless...shit even fodder Uchiha are considered above average and they aren't even named characters.
> 
> The manga has made statements before about kids being able to be much younger than Kakashi and yet stronger than him. So everyone arguing that 1, 2 or 3 years isn't enough are really the ones not reading the manga. Does that mean Tobi = Obito..no, but it isn't going to be  wrong because  of "DERP he is to young and didn't have enough time to get this strong"



That's one reason.
I mean seriously.
Why would Obito hate the village?
Why would he fight Kakashi?
Why would he attack the village with Kurama?
Why would he attack the village Rin is in if he wanted to protect her?
How did Obito activate MS?


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> I never said that.
> I said there's no way OBITO in particular is getting strong enough to have MS and fight Minato in one year.


Yes you said it, but i disproved it...


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> That's one reason.
> I mean seriously.
> Why would Obito hate the village?
> Why would he fight Kakashi?
> ...



These apply to everybody besides Madara, actually. Just replace Obito with (insert your favorite Tobi theory here).


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Source?
> 
> You get MS by feeling the pain of losing the closest person to you. obito really thought he was going to die and lose his friends, so that might have caused his MS to awaken. That, or  he got it when he found out Rin died.
> 
> ...



He told Kakashi he was content.
He died protecting his friends and now he leaves that job to Kakashi.

If he awoke his MS right there, why didn't he just use it on the boulder?
How could he live being crushed on one side anyway?



Awesome said:


> These apply to everybody besides Madara, actually. Just replace Obito with (insert your favorite Tobi theory here).



Who else cares about Rin like that?
Honestly.



loool3 said:


> Yes you said it, but i disproved it...



No.
no you didn't.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> That's one reason.
> I mean seriously.
> Why would Obito hate the village?
> Why would he fight Kakashi?
> ...



All valid points. I never was against people stating they find it hard to believe Tobi = Obito since both sides have some good points to make. The only thing i take issue with is exactly what i stated...this whole idea that he was to young/didn't have the time to get that strong...the manga itself tells us that shit is very possible when you come from a clan like Uchiha.

Obviously if he turns out to be Tobi we will find all this stuff out won't we? We had Itachi telling Naruto in the past chapters that he could turn out like Tobi if he doesn't watch it. Naruto who brofists bijuu, reads Nagato bedtime stories after Nagato murders Jiraya and the same Naruto who supposedly conquered his hate at the waterfall of truth. That Naruto could magically become Tobi so says Itachi, but Obito turning crazy all of a sudden is impossible?


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Rin died after Obito did.  Therefore, you're making an assumption.  Also, now you're saying that Obito was good, but somehow didn't go back to Konoha?


Your making an assumption saying that Obito died...
Who says Rin didnt die after she tried looking for corpse when the bridge got destroyed?
How could Obito himself return to Konoha in such state, especially if he was in the hands of Zetsu?
Rin clearly died meanwhile which achieved him the MS.
And Kakashi knew even about Zetsu which means he saw Zetsu before, hell maybe he fought against Zetsu after the bridge got destroyed but obviously such things cant be revealed until the mask breaks.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan.



Tobi also claimed that he was taking back what was his to begin with, meaning they were implants.



> You get MS by feeling the pain of losing the closest person to you. obito really thought he was going to die and lose his friends, so that might have caused his MS to awaken. That, or  he got it when he found out Rin died.



That's completely backwards.  Obito wasn't losing anyone, they were losing him.  Again, if he survived and wasn't immediately evil, then why didn't he go back to Konoha?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

posternojutsu said:


> All valid points. I never was against people stating they find it hard to believe Tobi = Obito since both sides have some good points to make. The only thing i take issue with is exactly what i stated...this whole idea that he was to young/didn't have the time to get that strong...the manga itself tells us that shit is very possible when you come from a clan like Uchiha.



I understand that completely.
Naruto tends to have overpowered kids.

The main question is, how did Obito manage to get out from under the rock and activate MS and then fight Minato with such excellent control of the MS in one year?



darkprinc979 said:


> Tobi also claimed that he was taking back what was his to begin with, meaning they were implants.
> 
> 
> 
> That's completely backwards.  Obito wasn't losing anyone, they were losing him.  Again, if he survived and wasn't immediately evil, then why didn't he go back to Konoha?



Exactly.
Also, how would Obito have known of Rin's death if he was away from the village?


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> You mean when Tobi "claimed" to have given him the rinnegan?
> Though, it was never proven?
> 
> How would Tobi have rinnegan to give him?
> ESPECIALLY if he's Obito? In fact, Obito wasn't even planned at the time Nagato was born.


Why would he say he gave Nagato the Rinnegan if neither he nor Madara had done it?



Fureikusu Kira said:


> That's one reason.
> I mean seriously.
> Why would Obito hate the village?


really?! Read the last few chapters.


> Why would he fight Kakashi?


Because Kakashi broke his promise to protect Rin. He opened his mouth too easily and ended up living a life of regret.


> Why would he attack the village with Kurama?


Read the ones above.


> Why would he attack the village Rin is in if he wanted to protect her?
> How did Obito activate MS?


Probably because she was DEAD by that time.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> He told Kakashi he was content.
> He died protecting his friends and now he leaves that job to Kakashi.


When did he tell Kakashi he was content. Are you just making things up now? "Just as  Kakashi and I were starting to become friends, and i couldn't even confess to Rin that I loved her. I just wish I could have been together with everyone longer..." You say that's not regretful?!

Also, he could have regretted saving Kakashi from that boulder because he thought he'd do a better ob of protecting Rin.



> If he awoke his MS right there, why didn't he just use it on the boulder?
> How could he live being crushed on one side anyway?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ONE BIG POINT.
If he's Obito, where did he get his second sharingan?


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> No.
> no you didn't.


Stop screwing around.
First you said that only the main character like Naruto could get such a massive strenght increase because hes Minato's son and got the Bijuu.
After it told you that Nagato which was weaker then Obito got also a massive strenght increase.

And about what strenght are you talking anyways?
The only shit he uses is his S/T nothing more, he's in fact WEAK.
Did he drop meteors like Madara?
Did he used Incredible Susanoo's like Madara, Itachi, Sasuke?
Did he use a simple sage mode technique like Kabuto?

The only shit he always uses are physical weak weapons, like the dual weapon at Minato, waterpipe at Konan, AND HIS OWN FREAKING FQING ARMS AGAINST FUU AND THE OTHER FODDER .



Fureikusu Kira said:


> ONE BIG POINT.
> If he's Obito, where did he get his second sharingan?


He had a lab full of Sharingans. 
Do you seriously read the manga?


----------



## nadinkrah (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Your making an assumption saying that Obito died...
> Who says Rin didnt die after she tried looking for corpse when the bridge got destroyed?
> How could Obito himself return to Konoha in such state, especially if he was in the hands of Zetsu?
> *Rin clearly died meanwhile which achieved him the MS.*
> And Kakashi knew even about Zetsu which means he saw Zetsu before, hell maybe he fought against Zetsu after the bridge got destroyed but obviously such things cant be revealed until the mask breaks.



Proof Zetsu got him?
Kakashi is Obitos closest friend, not Rin.
Kakashi achieved MS by himself.

Everything you've said isn't even in the manga. wtf


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why would he say he gave Nagato the Rinnegan if neither he nor Madara had done it?
> 
> really?! Read the last few chapters.
> Because Kakashi broke his promise to protect Rin. He opened his mouth too easily and ended up living a life of regret.
> ...



Now you're just fanboying without providing any actual logic or evidence.

Seriously, how do we know Rin was dead at the time of the attack?
We know Tobi isn't Madara, so Tobi COULDN'T have given Nagato the rinnegan.
How the hell would Obito know about that?

If Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan, how would he have still had his eyes when he was resurrected.

Think, man. Think.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

nadinkrah said:


> Proof Zetsu got him?
> Kakashi is Obitos closest friend, not Rin.
> Kakashi achieved MS by himself.
> 
> Everything you've said isn't even in the manga. wtf


Tobi is merged with Zetsu goo, Zetsu clearly gave him to goo's right after Obito got away from the rocks. 
Kakashi is Obito's closest friend?
Proof? Obito cared about Rin from the start compared to Kakashi.
So what if Kakashi achieved the MS by himself?

The first half isnt obviously since im questioning him, and yes Kakashi knew Zetsu already, he said at the bridge when he fought against Sasuke, ''first Zetsu and now Madara'' i cant take them out both by myself, *this is a huge hint that Kakashi fought against Zetsu before, it could clearly be after the Kannabi bridge got destroyed.*


----------



## Zeno (Aug 19, 2012)

I have another theory. We never see Tobi and Iruka sensei in the same panel right? It must be Iruka sensei.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Your making an assumption saying that Obito died...
> Who says Rin didnt die after she tried looking for corpse when the bridge got destroyed?
> How could Obito himself return to Konoha in such state, especially if he was in the hands of Zetsu?
> Rin clearly died meanwhile which achieved him the MS.


Hm. I never thought about that possibility.



> And Kakashi knew even about Zetsu which means he saw Zetsu before, hell maybe he fought against Zetsu after the bridge got destroyed but obviously such things cant be revealed until the mask breaks.


Didn't he know about him from the Akatsuki book Kabuto gave them?



darkprinc979 said:


> Tobi also claimed that he was taking back what was his to begin with, meaning they were implants.


My point exactly.





> That's completely backwards.  Obito wasn't losing anyone, they were losing him.  Again, if he survived and wasn't immediately evil, then why didn't he go back to Konoha?


You need to experience the FEELING of losing someone close to you. From Obito's point of view, he was losing THEM.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> The main question is, how did Obito manage to get out from under the rock and activate MS and then fight Minato with such excellent control of the MS in one year?


Senju DNA?! ;facepalm



Fureikusu Kira said:


> Exactly.
> Also, how would Obito have known of Rin's death if he was away from the village?


maybe he tried to go back or he found her body or Madara or Zetsu told him.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Stop screwing around.
> First you said that only the main character like Naruto could get such a massive strenght increase because hes Minato's son and got the Bijuu.
> After it told you that Nagato which was weaker then Obito got also a massive strenght increase.
> 
> ...



Really?
Tobi's weak?
He's fighting off Naruto, Killer Bee, Kakashi, and Guy.

Yes, he had a lab.
Think for a minute.
WHY WOULD OBITO WANT TO KILL THE UCHIHAS?
Itachi said that he let Tobi join the massacre to save the village.
That's where he got the sharingan.
Why would Obito do that?



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Hm. I never thought about that possibility.
> 
> Didn't he know about him from the Akatsuki book Kabuto gave them?
> 
> ...



again, fangirl logic.

Why would Obito have had Senju DNA?


----------



## nadinkrah (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Tobi is merged with Zetsu goo, Zetsu clearly gave him to goo's right after Obito got away from the rocks.
> Kakashi is Obito's closest friend?
> Proof? Obito cared about Rin from the start compared to Kakashi.
> So what if Kakashi achieved the MS by himself?



This is the problem with you guys. You're talking as if it's cannon. Do you even know what a theory is?  Tobi isn't Obito untill Kishi says so.  
Yes, clearly Obito was his rival/best and closest friend.
Must be nice having to dodge the timeline argument and relying on just words.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Now you're just fanboying without providing any actual logic or evidence.


Oh, I'M the one doing that? The irony...



> Seriously, how do we know Rin was dead at the time of the attack?


Why wasn't she with Kakashi and Guy?



> We know Tobi isn't Madara, so Tobi COULDN'T have given Nagato the rinnegan.


You're proving my point.



> How the hell would Obito know about that?


Madara told him?



> If Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan, how would he have still had his eyes when he was resurrected.


He gave him his old eyes instead of Izuna's?



> Think, man. Think.


The one who needs to think is you.



Zengetto said:


> I have another theory. We never see Tobi and Iruka sensei in the same panel right? It must be Iruka sensei.


Genius, man. Genius.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Really?
> Tobi's weak?
> He's fighting off Naruto, Killer Bee, Kakashi, and Guy.


Yes, with the 5 Bijuu's, Gedo Mazou along.
Yes, he had a lab.


> Think for a minute.
> WHY WOULD OBITO WANT TO KILL THE UCHIHAS?
> Itachi said that he let Tobi join the massacre to save the village.
> That's where he got the sharingan.
> Why would Obito do that?


Oh man you really dont know when to admit being wrong, you said Tobi being Obito was not possible because he had 2 Sharingans and again your changing the subject.
Anyways the masked man who helped Itachi wasn't Tobi but the real Madara himself.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Yes, he had a lab.
> Think for a minute.
> WHY WOULD OBITO WANT TO KILL THE UCHIHAS?
> Itachi said that he let Tobi join the massacre to save the village.
> ...



This works with any candidate, actually. Let's try this out:


Fureikusu Kira said:


> Yes, he had a lab.
> Think for a minute.
> WHY WOULD Izuna WANT TO KILL THE UCHIHAS?
> Itachi said that he let Tobi join the massacre to save the village.
> ...





Fureikusu Kira said:


> Yes, he had a lab.
> Think for a minute.
> WHY WOULD KAGAMI WANT TO KILL THE UCHIHAS?
> Itachi said that he let Tobi join the massacre to save the village.
> ...





Fureikusu Kira said:


> Yes, he had a lab.
> Think for a minute.
> WHY WOULD SETSUNA WANT TO KILL THE UCHIHAS?
> Itachi said that he let Tobi join the massacre to save the village.
> ...


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

nadinkrah said:


> This is the problem with you guys. You're talking as if it's cannon. Do you even know what a theory is?  Tobi isn't Obito untill Kishi says so.
> Yes, clearly Obito was his rival/best and closest friend.
> Must be nice having to dodge the timeline argument and relying on just words.



Thank you.
My lord.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> again, fangirl logic.
> 
> Why would Obito have had Senju DNA?


Stop talking so dumb lol, you keep failing when you say such things.
Zetsu goo= Hashirama Dna confirmed.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Oh, I'M the one doing that? The irony...
> 
> Why wasn't she with Kakashi and Guy?
> 
> ...



Kid, you're name is ObitoUchiha and you're acting like it's been proved.
We're using actual facts from the manga, you're using opinions.

If Madara's eyes were bad, how could he give them to Nagato?


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

nadinkrah said:


> This is the problem with you guys. You're talking as if it's cannon. Do you even know what a theory is?  Tobi isn't Obito untill Kishi says so.
> Yes, clearly Obito was his rival/best and closest friend.
> Must be nice having to dodge the timeline argument and relying on just words.


Yes, and Kishi is already saying it slowly that Tobi is Obito since 4-5 chapters ago.
Its just a matter of time to reveal it right in front of you.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Yes, he had a lab.
> Think for a minute.
> WHY WOULD OBITO WANT TO KILL THE UCHIHAS?
> Itachi said that he let Tobi join the massacre to save the village.
> ...


He was willing to kill Minato, Kushina, their newborn baby, and a whole ton of other people on Konoha. You think it's a problem that he killed some of his own clan?



Fureikusu Kira said:


> again, fanboy logic.
> 
> Why would Obito have had Senju DNA?


Z.E.T.S.U.



nadinkrah said:


> This is the problem with you guys. You're talking as if it's cannon. Do you even know what a theory is?  Tobi isn't Obito untill Kishi says so.
> Yes, clearly Obito was his rival/best and closest friend.
> Must be nice having to dodge the timeline argument and relying on just words.


As if the timeline is that big of an obstacle for this theory.


----------



## nadinkrah (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Yes, and Kishi is already saying it slowly that Tobi is Obito since 4-5 chapters ago.
> Its just a matter of time to reveal it right in front of you.



lol can't wait


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> This works with any candidate, actually. Let's try this out:



...lol

Well, Izuna kind of makes sense.
Kagami is TOO underdeveloped.
Obito was a hero, so yeah.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Kid, you're name is ObitoUchiha and you're acting like it's been proved.
> We're using actual facts from the manga, you're using opinions.
> 
> If Madara's eyes were bad, how could he give them to Nagato?


Itachi's eye were also blind where did they end up?
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, right in Sasukes eye sockets which still has fine eyesights. 
Your failing hard.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He was willing to kill Minato, Kushina, their newborn baby, and a whole ton of other people on Konoha. You think it's a problem that he killed some of his own clan?
> 
> 
> Z.E.T.S.U.
> ...



The timeline is everything man.
Obito didn't have zetsu when he was under the rock.
He would have had to have been taken in.



loool3 said:


> Itachi's eye were also blind where did they end up?
> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, right in Sasukes eye sockets which still has fine eyesights.
> Your failing hard.



What?

Since when was Itachi blind?

Madara took Izunas eyes to replace the ones he was losing.
If they were bad, how could Nagato have used them so well?

I'm failing?
Read your own post dude, really.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> What?
> 
> Since when was Itachi blind?
> 
> ...


I am not gonna bother going through the manga to prove something obvious, go and look for Itachi's dying moment when his Sharingan tomoe's fade.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He was willing to kill Minato, Kushina, their newborn baby, and a whole ton of other people on Konoha. You think it's a problem that he killed some of his own clan?
> 
> 
> Z.E.T.S.U.
> ...



Oh wait....
Didn't you say he COULDN'T be an experiment?


If he had zetsu, he would have been.
Nice contradiction.
A+


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 19, 2012)

If Tobi is revealed to be Obito then might aswell just kill him off quickly.


----------



## mayumi (Aug 19, 2012)

tobi is obviously rikudou who watched his 2 sons turn the world to shit when he asked them to bring peace


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> I am not gonna bother going through the manga to prove something obvious, go and look for Itachi's dying moment when his Sharingan tomoe's fade.



facepalm


Kid logic.
I know I'm right though I won't present evidence.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Kid, you're name is ObitoUchiha and you're acting like it's been proved.


When did I say that it was proven. When did those words come out of my mouth?




> We're using actual facts from the manga,


Bullshit. 



> you're using opinions.


On something like this, how can we do anything other than speculate?



> If Madara's eyes were bad, how could he give them to Nagato?


If Itachi's eyes were blind, why give them to Sasuke.

It's highly possible that Senju DNA restores the light in blind Uchiha eyes. And Nagato was an Uzumaki, who would've had Senju DNA naturally.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Itachi's eye were also blind where did they end up?
> Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, right in Sasukes eye sockets which still has fine eyesights.
> Your failing hard.



That was a case of ems.  Big difference between that and putting them in a stranger's eyes.  You're making suppositions again.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> facepalm
> 
> 
> Kid logic.
> I know I'm right though I won't present evidence.


You've been failing the whole time and still do and you keep denying it. 
Anyways saying such lines isn't gonna change Tobi's identity.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> That was a case of ems.  Big difference between that and putting them in a stranger's eyes.  You're making suppositions again.


LMAO, JUST LMAO.
So when Tobi puts a blind Itachi's eye in Sasuke eye sockets he can see fine again with it while Madara putting his eyes in Nagato's eye sockets transforming it into the Rinnegan won't gives his eyesight back?


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> LMAO, JUST LMAO.
> So when Tobi puts a blind Itachi's eye in Sasuke eye sockets he can see fine again with it while Madara putting his eyes in Nagato's eye sockets transforming it into the Rinnegan won't gives his eyesight back?



Transforming with what Senju dna?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> When did I say that it was proven. When did those words come out of my mouth?
> 
> 
> Bullshit.
> ...




The whole time you've been stating that, "it's obito because blah blah blah."
Nobody knows.
We're all just guessing.

We're using logic, you're fangirling.
Itachi wasn't blind.
Besides, Sasuke is an Uchiha. 
Nagato isn't. So how could Madara give Nagato faulty eyes?

The senju point is actually nice.
You should have mentioned that earlier.



loool3 said:


> You've been failing the whole time and still do and you keep denying it.
> Anyways saying such lines isn't gonna change Tobi's identity.



You should seriously just stop now.
Seriously.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> ...lol
> 
> Well, Izuna kind of makes sense.


He's dead.


> Obito was a hero, so yeah.


So was Nagato. And so is Gaara.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> The timeline is everything man.
> Obito didn't have zetsu when he was under the rock.
> He would have had to have been taken in.


No shit.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> Oh wait....
> Didn't you say he COULDN'T be an experiment?
> 
> 
> ...


having Zetsu implanted doesn't make him an experiment.



YellowSennin said:


> If Tobi is revealed to be Obito then might aswell just kill him off quickly.


Why? He's the perfect candidate for FV. Instead of being butthurt, try explaining your reasoning.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Transforming with what Senju dna?


Thats isnt the point.
The other guy said that Madara giving his own blind MS eyes would keep Nagato blind, while Sasuke also has Itachis blind eyes in his sockets.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> You should seriously just stop now.
> Seriously.


Your the one starting and denying it.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He's dead.
> So was Nagato. And so is Gaara.
> 
> No shit.
> ...



Reasons why Tobi is PROBABLY not Obito.

1. Tobi has been shown to be old.
Obito would be 30.

2.Tobi fought Minato on equal grounds.
Obito was weaker than Kakashi

3. If Obito didn't die, why would he come back and try to destroy the village?

4. How would Tobi have activated MS in a year, if he was pissed off?
He wouldn't be guilty if he was trying to destroy Konohad, he'd be pissed off.

5. Why would they implant Obito with senju DNA? or why would Obito do it to himself?


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Transforming with what Senju dna?


Nagato was an Uzumaki. Thus he would have Senju DNA.

It's all about Dat Senju DNA nowadays.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> The whole time you've been stating that, "it's obito because blah blah blah."
> Nobody knows.
> We're all just guessing.


I've been stating how he COULD be Obito. I never said "ZOMFG, TOBI IS OBITO! PROOOFFEN!!!!"



> We're using logic, you're fangirling.
> Itachi wasn't blind.
> Besides, Sasuke is an Uchiha.
> Nagato isn't. So how could Madara give Nagato faulty eyes?


Itachi's eyes WERE blind. 
And how am I fanboying by speculating? 



> The senju point is actually nice.
> You should have mentioned that earlier.


It's too late for compliments. This is WAR!


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Thats isnt the point.
> The other guy said that Madara giving his own blind MS eyes would keep Nagato blind, while Sasuke also has Itachis blind eyes in his sockets.
> 
> 
> Your the one starting and denying it.



WHEN WAS ITACHI EVER CONFIRMED BLIND?


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> WHEN WAS ITACHI EVER CONFIRMED BLIND?


At his dying moments, his Sharingan tomoe faded away.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> Reasons why Tobi is PROBABLY not Obito.
> 
> 1. Tobi has been shown to be old.
> Obito would be 30.
> ...



1: Only his right face side, they arent wrinkles but scars from the boulders.
2: He was just S/T  away nothing that much of a strenght.
3: If he is Obito then that means Kishi also has a obvious reason for it to do.
4: He was pissed off for a reason which is also the reason for his MS awakening.
5: Zetsus goo is there to replace his crushed limbs obviously.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

Ok move over big boy is here.

Who the fuck said that Obito was content with dying? Learn to read a chapter part 1 Kabuto?  
Equals REGRET. From what I've seen so far in the manga, MS activates on STRONG emotions of sadness. Notice how Sasuke didn't activate his until he was crying. 

Second its TWO, 2, DOS Years after Kakashi Gaiden took place that Kyuubi incident took place. And also let's start with the power concept. Tobi wasn't that powerful when he fought Minato, he just couldn't be touched, he used one move that makes him really difficult to beat. On top of that IF he was trained by Madara, while possessing MS, its only natural that he would be able to make the kyuubi his bitch, dude Madara was the first to and thus knew secrets. Look how strong Sasuke got in a DAY with his MS. MS=instant powerup, and easy to master. Sasuke went from getting trashed around by Bee to lighting him ablaze in full biju mode within the fight.

Third, REALLY you want to say its IMPOSSIBLE to have a personality change? Say hi to Nagato for me.
Ever watched Mission Impossible? Main character from the TV Series was the bad guy in the first movie, yeah exactly, you're not kishi so don't talk like you can decide what can and can't happen



Fureikusu Kira said:


> Thank you.
> My lord.



You're the only one here saying its impossible. We aren't saying its 100%


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> At his dying moments, his Sharingan tomoe faded away.



He gave the sharingan abilities to Sasuke, didn't he?
Maybe that's why they faded.

Madara was already going blind before Nagato was even born.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> 1. Tobi has been shown to be old.
> Obito would be 30.


Tobi looks old? News to me.



> 2.Tobi fought Minato on equal grounds.
> Obito was weaker than Kakashi


Obito was at LEAST as strong as Kakashi when he awakened his sharingan.



> 3. If Obito didn't die, why would he come back and try to destroy the village?


Kakashi broke his promise and let Rin die, war caused it all, Madara mindfucked him.



> 4. How would Tobi have activated MS in a year, if he was pissed off?
> He wouldn't be guilty if he was trying to destroy Konohad, he'd be pissed off.


You don't need guilt to unlock MS...



> 5. Why would they implant Obito with senju DNA? or why would Obito do it to himself?


He would have needed Zetsu goo to fix himself up.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> He gave the sharingan abilities to Sasuke, didn't he?
> Maybe that's why they faded.
> 
> Madara was already going blind before Nagato was even born.




no just no, it was a seal one time activation

Sasuke unlocked his own amaterasu against Bee


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Ok move over big boy is here.
> 
> Who the fuck said that Obito was content with dying? Learn to read a chapter part 1 Kabuto?
> Equals REGRET. From what I've seen so far in the manga, MS activates on STRONG emotions of sadness. Notice how Sasuke didn't activate his until he was crying.
> ...



Show me the math that says it was two years.
Please.

I don't think it's impossible for it to be Obito.
You people are fan girling hard.
If you're going to say it's absolutely Obito, I'll say it absolutely isn't.

Equality stings like a bitch, doesn't it.

Point is, nobody knows who it is.
INSTEAD of being stuck up one characters rectum, you should explore other possibilities and stay open to suggestions and ideas.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

> Nagato was an Uzumaki. Thus he would have Senju DNA.
> 
> It's all about Dat Senju DNA nowadays.



It has not been confirmed anywhere in the manga that Uzumaki dna is a suitable substitute to make a rinnegan.  The only thing that has been said is that they are *distantly* related to the Senju.



> Thats isnt the point.
> The other guy said that Madara giving his own blind MS eyes would keep Nagato blind, while Sasuke also has Itachis blind eyes in his sockets.



That's entirely the point.  He's saying that since Sasuke can see with Itachi's blind eyes, Nagato should see with Madara's blind eyes.  Nagato has neither Senju *or* Uchiha dna, so we cannot state as a fact that doing that would work.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi looks old? News to me.
> 
> Obito was at LEAST as strong as Kakashi when he awakened his sharingan.
> 
> ...



1. Look at Tobi with a broken mask after Konan fight.
He has wrinkles and bags under his eyes.
signs of age.

2.no.no.no.no

3.okay

4.every single person to activate MS has gone through guilt.
In fact, they said to unlock MS you need to have the feeling of killing someone close to you. 

5. Tobi said he wanted to feel complete. That's why he took senju and uchiha DNA. 
Leaning more towards someone who wants to be like the sage.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

> He gave the sharingan abilities to Sasuke, didn't he?
> Maybe that's why they faded.
> 
> Madara was already going blind before Nagato was even born.


The tomoe faded away even before he gave Sasuke his MS abilities.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> The tomoe faded away even before he gave Sasuke his MS abilities.



He gave them to him when he touched his forehead.
-_________________________________________-

I did think it was Obito for a while, but it just doesn't make that much sense.
If he makes it Obito, he'll have to do a lot more explaining that what he's done so far.

ALSO, how would Madara have been alive that long?


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

> 1. Look at Tobi with a broken mask after Konan fight.
> He has wrinkles and bags under his eyes.
> signs of age.


they don't even look like wrinkles. And Tobi doesn't have those "wrinkles" on the left side of his face. The same side that the boulder didn't land on Obito.



> 2.no.no.no.no


Yes.yes.yes.yes. I can actually provide manga panels to prove my point. Stop denying it.



> 4.every single person to activate MS has gone through guilt.
> In fact, they said to unlock MS you need to have the feeling of killing someone close to you.


All you need to achieve MS is by feeling the pain of losing someone close to you.



> 5. Tobi said he wanted to feel complete. That's why he took senju and uchiha DNA.
> Leaning more towards someone who wants to be like the sage.


Maybe he wants a complete body because his is fractured and broken from the boulders and thus needed to be repaired with Zetsu goo.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> they don't even look like wrinkles. And Tobi doesn't have those "wrinkles" on the left side of his face. The same side that the boulder didn't land on Obito.
> 
> Yes.yes.yes.yes. II can actually provide manga panels to prove my point. Stop denying it.
> 
> ...



When have you seen the left side of his face?

Yes, they do look like wrinkles.
ddawad


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> When have you seen the left side of his face?
> 
> Yes, they do look like wrinkles.
> ddawad


Panel 4;



Wheres your old man now.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Please provide a manga panel detailing Obito being stronger than Kakashi.



loool3 said:


> Panel 4;
> 
> 
> 
> Wheres your old man now.



What?
Panel 4 of what?



Nevermind.
It didn't load.
I see it.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> That doesn't show the front of his face though...


Denying again? 
You can clearly see the scars on his other face side from such a distant, while you dont see anything on the other.
Someone show this funny guy the colored page one when Tobi was shown with his new mask which on you also couldn't see the scars through the mask. 
Or better dont bother since hes gonna deny that as well.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> That doesn't show the front of his face though...



Yeah, the marks on the right side of his face don't appear to go all the way around his face, so you'd have to get a picture of the front to disprove their existence, but there is no such picture.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Yeah, the marks on the right side of his face don't appear to go all the way around his face, so you'd have to get a picture of the front to disprove their existence, but there is no such picture.



Unfortunately...
Well, he is fighting kyubi Naruto right now.


That mask is coming off.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira, there's an *edit button* at the bottom of our posts, which allows us to add content... Instead of double/triple posting... Multiple times...

Please use it. -_-


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

ddawad

Also look like wrinkles.



SaiST said:


> Fureikusu Kira, there's an *edit button* at the bottom of our posts, which allows us to add content... Instead of double/triple posting... Multiple times...
> 
> Please use it. -_-



Whoops.
My bad. 
Oh well.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

> Fureikusu Kira, there's an edit button at the bottom of our posts, which allows us to add content... Instead of double/triple posting... Multiple times...
> 
> Please use it. -_-



Lmao!  I'm surprised he managed to respond quickly enough to even do that.  Even in the short time it took me to reply to this at least one other person has posted.

Edit:  Dude, just wait a minute before posting, you just did it again lmao!


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Lmao!  I'm surprised he managed to respond quickly enough to even do that.  Even in the short time it took me to reply to this at least one other person has posted.



I'm a blogger.
I have those skills, yo.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

If you deny this one as well, then your clearly grasping at straws.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> If you deny this one as well, then your clearly grasping at straws.



What's that supposed to show?
I'm not sure what to look for.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Show me the math that says it was two years.
> Please.
> .



Kakashi is 29-30 born in September. Obito is half a year older born in February. Naruto is 15-16 born in October.

Kakashi Gaiden takes place when Obito was 13 since that is when he died. We get no date on this so we don't know where in the year it was. We assume Kakashi was either 12 or 13.
when naruto was born Kakashi was 15. You forget to use the ZERO in the math for Naruto being born. Kakashi had just had his birthday a month before naruto was born. There is that overlap in month birthdays that makes the math confusing for some. Kakashi will turn 30 before Naruto turns 16. The proper way is to do 30-15=15 to get the proper date on the kyuubi attack. 15-13(or 12)=2(3).


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> What's that supposed to show?
> I'm not sure what to look for.


Look carefuly in both eyes, one is full of wrinkles while the other one isn't.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> What's that supposed to show?
> I'm not sure what to look for.



Lmao exactly.  You can barely see the lines on the right side, and on the left side it's darker than the left, thereby still purposely hiding that side of his face.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Kakashi is 29-30 born in September. Obito is half a year older born in February. Naruto is 15-16 born in October.
> 
> Kakashi Gaiden takes place when Obito was 13 since that is when he died. We get no date on this so we don't know where in the year it was. We assume Kakashi was either 12 or 13.
> when naruto was born Kakashi was 15. You forget to use the ZERO in the math for Naruto being born. Kakashi had just had his birthday a month before naruto was born. There is that overlap in month birthdays that makes the math confusing for some. Kakashi will turn 30 before Naruto turns 16. The proper way is to do 30-15=15 to get the proper date on the kyuubi attack. 15-13(or 12)=2(3).



What?
If Naruto is 12 in part 1 and Kakashi is 26. 
You take 12 away from 26 since Naruto was a new born.
How does that make 15?


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Lmao exactly.  You can barely see the lines on the right side, and on the left side it's darker than the left, thereby still purposely hiding that side of his face.


*Sigh.
Why else do you guys think Kishi blackened out the face?
Do you really think he would one shot reveal Tobito's identity?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> *Sigh.
> Why else do you guys think Kishi blackened out the face?
> Do you really think he would one shot reveal Tobito's identity?



Tobi was mentioned so far back though.
Why would they release Obito 100-200 chapters or so after Tobi?


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Tobi was mentioned so far back though.
> Why would they release Obito 100-200 chapters or so after Tobi?


Ur really funny, Obito was in the plot before Tobi. 
Edited: Their names are so smiliar even. 
Wanna enjoy another one? 



Do you really think that i would support a theory without having proofs and facts for it while 95% of the guys use nothing more then fanfic.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Look carefuly in both eyes, one is full of wrinkles while the other one isn't.



Why would you show us a picture that you practically have to look at with a magnifying glass to try and prove your point?  If we have to strain our eyes to see it, it can't be counted as good evidence.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> What?
> If Naruto is 12 in part 1 and Kakashi is 26.
> You take 12 away from 26 since Naruto was a new born.
> How does that make 15?



You are failing at grasping the concept.
Kakashi was 26-27
Naruto was 12-13
BUT because we are focusing this around WHEN Naruto was born, you have to look at the table of Kakashi having that one year edge on Naruto. Thus in between Sep and Oct of Part 1 Kakashi was 27 while Naruto was 12. 27-12 still equals to 15 kid. Kyuubi attack was on Naruto's birthday remember. Or you can look at Naruto's age as zero too, that may add a year, I don't really want to over think something that is IRRELEVANT because characters can get powerful in a short amount of time. Less than a year has passed since part 2 began, and look how powerful Naruto has become. Went from being skilled ninja to strongest ninja alive able to take down 5 biju's at once.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Why would you show us a picture that you practically have to look at with a magnifying glass to try and prove your point?  If we have to strain our eyes to see it, it can't be counted as good evidence.


That panel at Konans fight disagrees with you, as my previous post do.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> That panel at Konans fight disagrees with you, as my previous post do.



So the fact that you can't see any marks on the side of his face that is purposely being hidden proves your point?


----------



## ceralux (Aug 19, 2012)

Madara was the only known Uchiha powerful enough to control Kurama. You people are seriously trying to tell me that someone as average as Obito could become powerful enough to also control Kurama WHILE fighting toe-to-toe with Minato in only two years? That's bullshit. You can't convince me that these two are indeed the same person.

"Do you have ANY idea how long I've been waiting" You people think two years is a fucking long time? 

The same guy that claimed to be old enough to give Nagato his eyes?

The same guy that knows Konoha's history and Madara's life story?

In what master-student relationship has there been in this manga where the student knows their masters life story? Naruto doesn't know Jiraiya and Kakashi's life story. He didn't even know he was his fucking god father. You think Madara would just tell Obito every little fucking thing about him? Alright boys.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> You are failing at grasping the concept.
> Kakashi was 26-27
> Naruto was 12-13
> BUT because we are focusing this around WHEN Naruto was born, you have to look at the table of Kakashi having that one year edge on Naruto. Thus in between Sep and Oct of Part 1 Kakashi was 27 while Naruto was 12. 27-12 still equals to 15 kid. Kyuubi attack was on Naruto's birthday remember. Or you can look at Naruto's age as zero too, that may add a year, I don't really want to over think something that is IRRELEVANT because characters can get powerful in a short amount of time. Less than a year has passed since part 2 began, and look how powerful Naruto has become. Went from being skilled ninja to strongest ninja alive able to take down 5 biju's at once.



Okay, I get what you're saying now.
Since Naruto was born on Oct 10, and Kakashi was Sept.
When Naruto turns 13, Kakashi would just have turned 27.
Meaning Kakashi just turned 15. Obito would still only be 15 though.
While that makes more sense, Obito still couldn't have done this or become this way on his own.


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> So the fact that you can't see any marks on the side of his face that is purposely being hidden proves your point?


No i believe it was just for the lulz.
Your just grasping at straws, Kishi clearly drew Tobi's face normally and suddenly blackened it out after that panel.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Wait, no.
They said he was 26 at the start of Part 1.
Meaning he would have just turned 14 when Naruto was born.
I think....


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Wait, no.
> They said he was 26 at the start of Part 1.
> Meaning he would have just turned 14 when Naruto was born.
> I think....


You quoted the wrong post.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> You quoted the wrong post.



Weird...I didn't even quote...

Edit: 
1.Kakashi turns 14.
2.Naruto is born.
3.12 years pass.
4.Naruto is 12.
5.Kakashi is 26.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 19, 2012)

ceralux said:


> Madara was the only known Uchiha powerful enough to control Kurama. You people are seriously trying to tell me that someone as average as Obito could become powerful enough to also control Kurama WHILE fighting toe-to-toe with Minato in only two years? That's bullshit. You can't convince me that these two are indeed the same person.
> 
> "Do you have ANY idea how long I've been waiting" You people think two years is a fucking long time?
> 
> ...



You are using god awful logic. So Madara is the ONLY one in the existence of the manga to be able to control the kyuubi with the sharingan is what you are saying. Yet we know Tobi can too. Tobi MUST be Madara. Obito wasn't weak. He became a chuunin WITHOUT the sharingan. And I can't think of many master-student relationships PERIOD off the top of my head at the moment, but when you are posing as someone to start a war with that influence, you damn well better know the storiy inside and out. With Zetsu recordings and sharingan mind displays, not too difficult to learn. 2 years is more than enough time in this manga to do whatever you need to. Sasuke went from unable to put a scratch on Itachi and getting his full blown chidori simply pushed away to being able to cut up and burn Itachi in those 2 years. With the most powerful Uchiha in history as a teacher you better believe he had potential.

edit: my math remains the same. age at beginning of part 1 is irrelevent, im using their birthdays and the ages databook give


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> You are using god awful logic. So Madara is the ONLY one in the existence of the manga to be able to control the kyuubi with the sharingan is what you are saying. Yet we know Tobi can too. Tobi MUST be Madara. Obito wasn't weak. He became a chuunin WITHOUT the sharingan. And I can't think of many master-student relationships PERIOD off the top of my head at the moment, but when you are posing as someone to start a war with that influence, you damn well better know the storiy inside and out. With Zetsu recordings and sharingan mind displays, not too difficult to learn. 2 years is more than enough time in this manga to do whatever you need to. Sasuke went from unable to put a scratch on Itachi and getting his full blown chidori simply pushed away to being able to cut up and burn Itachi in those 2 years. With the most powerful Uchiha in history as a teacher you better believe he had potential.
> 
> edit: my math remains the same. age at beginning of part 1 is irrelevent, im using their birthdays and the ages they give




*1 year.
If Naruto is 12 and Kakashi is 26, Kakashi can't be 15 when Naruto is born.

It's simple math.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> No i believe it was just for the lulz.
> Your just grasping at straws, Kishi clearly drew Tobi's face normally and suddenly blackened it out after that panel.



Right, because he was definitely not going to draw his face in an ambiguous manner despite trying to hide what it looks like 

Who's grasping at straws again?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Right, because he was definitely not going to draw his face in an ambiguous manner despite trying to hide what it looks like
> 
> Who's grasping at straws again?



I mean.
Just because they hide his face doesn't automatically make him Obito.
It just means they don't want to show Tobi's face.

They want this very argument to happen to build hype.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> I mean.
> Just because they hide his face doesn't automatically make him Obito.
> It just means they don't want to show Tobi's face.
> 
> They want this very argument to happen to build hype.



Yep, this is all happening according to Kishimoto's master plan.  Wait, there's an idea.  Tobi's true identity is.......Masashi Kishimoto!


----------



## Talis (Aug 19, 2012)

You 2 are just denying manga panels, but it doesnt matter, soon enough you wont be able to deny it.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

loool3 said:


> You 2 are just denying manga panels, but it doesnt matter, soon enough you wont be able to deny it.



*Takes Tobi's mask off.*
























Not Obito.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

> You 2 are just denying manga panels, but it doesnt matter, soon enough you wont be able to deny it.



You're the one denying the manga panels.  They're purposely being drawn *not* to show who Tobi is, therefore they can't be used as evidence to support Obito *or* anti-Obito theories.


----------



## Ewing4686 (Aug 19, 2012)

Question: Would be it possible to consider that it is in fact Madara inhabiting Obito's body through some currently unrevealed jutsu?


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Ewing4686 said:


> Question: Would be it possible to consider that it is in fact Madara inhabiting Obito's body through some currently unrevealed jutsu?



Considering the fact that Madara is right now on the battlefield fighting the five Kage?  No, that wouldn't be possible.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 19, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> You are using god awful logic. So Madara is the ONLY one in the existence of the manga to be able to control the kyuubi with the sharingan is what you are saying. Yet we know Tobi can too. Tobi MUST be Madara. Obito wasn't weak. *He became a chuunin WITHOUT the sharingan.* And I can't think of many master-student relationships PERIOD off the top of my head at the moment, but when you are posing as someone to start a war with that influence, you damn well better know the storiy inside and out. With Zetsu recordings and sharingan mind displays, not too difficult to learn. 2 years is more than enough time in this manga to do whatever you need to. Sasuke went from unable to put a scratch on Itachi and getting his full blown chidori simply pushed away to being able to cut up and burn Itachi in those 2 years. With the most powerful Uchiha in history as a teacher you better believe he had potential.
> 
> edit: my math remains the same. age at beginning of part 1 is irrelevent, im using their birthdays and the ages databook give



I clearly said that Madara was the *only known* Uchiha powerful enough to control Kurama (up until Tobi). Am I wrong? You make it sound like every Uchiha can do it.  What the hell is wrong with you? Stop putting words in my mouth.

You want me to believe that the only two Uchiha in this manga that can control Kurama is Madara Uchiha and Obito? The same guy who couldn't even use his sharingan 2 years before? Not only that, you expect him to also be able to tangle with Minato at the same time? That's bullshit. 

Since when was becoming a chuunin without the sharingan such a huge accomplishment? I don't care if he did it without his sharingan? So did fucking TenTen.

Sasuke has had more latent potential than Itachi himself. That's a completely different scenario. Sasuke is considered a genius by many including Orochimaru. Obito was nothing special and you know it. Don't even compare the two please. Not to mention Itachi wasn't healthy nor did he even have the intent of actually killing Sasuke. Oh, and I love how you just conveniently forgot to mention that Sasuke was continuously using Orochimaru's powers during their fight, If you remember (which you probably don't because you don't seem to read), Sasuke said that he and Orochimaru by themselves had no chance at killing Itachi.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Considering the fact that Madara is right now on the battlefield fighting the five Kage?  No, that wouldn't be possible.



I thought Madara died on the Battlefield already.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> I thought Madara died on the Battlefield already.



Nope, the closest he came to going away was when Kabuto released the edo tensei summons.  Madara knew a way to separate himself from the edo tensei, so he's still hanging out with Tsunade and the others.  We just haven't seen him in a while because it's been focusing on Tobi vs. Kakashi, Bee, Gai and Naruto.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Nope, the closest he came to going away was when Kabuto released the edo tensei summons.  Madara knew a way to separate himself from the edo tensei, so he's still hanging out with Tsunade and the others.  We just haven't seen him in a while because it's been focusing on Tobi vs. Kakashi, Bee, Gai and Naruto.



Oh damn.
I thought his spirit floated away or something.
Madara's a monster.


----------



## Ewing4686 (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Considering the fact that Madara is right now on the battlefield fighting the five Kage?  No, that wouldn't be possible.



Yes, I had considered that, but perhaps the Edo Tensei works in a manner that brings back a person in mind and body, but if his "soul" or whatever was transferred to Obito's body, then it would be possible for the two to co-exist? Thank you though for bringing up that point, hopefully Tobi's mask will get knocked off completely soon and this major plot point will be settled at last!


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Ewing4686 said:


> Yes, I had considered that, but perhaps the Edo Tensei works in a manner that brings back a person in mind and body, but if his "soul" or whatever was transferred to Obito's body, then it would be possible for the two to co-exist? Thank you though for bringing up that point, hopefully Tobi's mask will get knocked off completely soon and this major plot point will be settled at last!



Nope, the edo tensei requires the soul of the person being resurrected to be in "the pure world", which is why anyone who's been sealed away can't be brought back.  Otherwise we probably would have seen every previous Hokage as an edo summon, and the shinobi alliance probably would have been screwed lol.  I mean, Madara and Hashirama on the same team?  Then you have to add in Hiruzen and Minato as well.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

ceralux said:


> I clearly said that Madara was the *only known* Uchiha powerful enough to control Kurama (up until Tobi). Am I wrong? You make it sound like every Uchiha can do it.  What the hell is wrong with you? Stop putting words in my mouth.



Actually, Sasuke was shown to suppress that Kyuubi when he first met Naruto in Part 2. It's a base sharingan jutsu too - it's just a genjutsu to place the Kyuubi under your control.


> You want me to believe that the only two Uchiha in this manga that can control Kurama is Madara Uchiha and Obito? The same guy who couldn't even use his sharingan 2 years before? Not only that, you expect him to also be able to tangle with Minato at the same time? That's bullshit.


The fight argument is bullshit. Beginning of Part 2 Sasuke with Tobi's S/T technique would have done far better than Tobi. The "controlling Kurama" thing is a single jutsu. Naruto and Sasuke have both learned powerful jutsu in a day, so something like this isn't uncommon.


> Sasuke has had more latent potential than Itachi himself. That's a completely different scenario. Sasuke is considered a genius by many including Orochimaru. Obito was nothing special and you know it. Don't even compare the two please. Not to mention Itachi wasn't healthy nor did he even have the intent of actually killing Sasuke. Oh, and I love how you just conveniently forgot to mention that Sasuke was continuously using Orochimaru's powers during their fight, If you remember (which you probably don't because you don't seem to read), Sasuke said that he and Orochimaru by themselves had no chance at killing Itachi.


The same could be said about Naruto in the beginning of Part 1. Look where he is now. That argument is bullshit. Don't even bother using that as a legitimate argument. Just because someone looks like a failure doesn't mean they'll stay that way.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

A collection of panels where some of the left side of Tobi's face is seen and there's no scars:



The reveal's almost here, guys.


----------



## Ewing4686 (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Nope, the edo tensei requires the soul of the person being resurrected to be in "the pure world", which is why anyone who's been sealed away can't be brought back.



Ah, quite right, thanks again for the clarification, just thought I would try to bring another angle to this debate. 

Regarding the recent developments, would it be possible to deduce then that Tobi had harvested Obito's other eye before he died, adding it to his collection of Sharingan, thus explaining the effects of his and Kakashi's jutsu using the same dimension? It would seem that this could be a case of Obito's eye at work, rather than Obito the person.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

> he fight argument is bullshit. Beginning of Part 2 Sasuke with Tobi's S/T technique would have done far better than Tobi.



I don't know how you can really say that for sure.  Most of the major fights Sasuke was in, he was fighting an opponent who was weakened.  Orochimaru was bedridden because his host body was rejecting him, and Itachi not only had bad eyesight, but was dying of sickness.  Let's also not forget the fact that Itachi was not fighting to kill Sasuke, only to exhaust him and draw out Orochimaru.



Ewing4686 said:


> Ah, quite right, thanks again for the clarification, just thought I would try to bring another angle to this debate.
> 
> Regarding the recent developments, would it be possible to deduce then that Tobi had harvested Obito's other eye before he died, adding it to his collection of Sharingan, thus explaining the effects of his and Kakashi's jutsu using the same dimension? It would seem that this could be a case of Obito's eye at work, rather than Obito the person.



Yeah, that's a main theme for pretty much every non-Obito theory out there.  You're not going to see much of that here though, because 90% of all the posts in this thread are going in circles about Obito, rather than discussing other options.

Edit:  Although, depending on the theory, it could be that Tobi took the eye, or any of a bunch of other people.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 19, 2012)

Regardless, Obito may or may not be Tobi.
He is weaker than most of the other people, and Tobi isn't.
It is, however, possible he got stronger.
Highly doubtful. 
If it is Obito, Kishi better do a damn good job of filling in the holes.


In any case, we'll probably find out Wednesday.


darkprinc979 said:


> I don't know how you can really say that for sure.  Most of the major fights Sasuke was in, he was fighting an opponent who was weakened.  Orochimaru was bedridden because his host body was rejecting him, and Itachi not only had bad eyesight, but was dying of sickness.  Let's also not forget the fact that Itachi was not fighting to kill Sasuke, only to exhaust him and draw out Orochimaru.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, they've already said he has Obito's eye.
Though, it probably is Obito now that I think.

I don't want it to be, but it probably is.
When Tobi said he got the eye from Kannabi Bridge, he might have meant he awakened it there.



Damn it.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 19, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> I don't know how you can really say that for sure.  Most of the major fights Sasuke was in, he was fighting an opponent who was weakened.  Orochimaru was bedridden because his host body was rejecting him, and Itachi not only had bad eyesight, but was dying of sickness.  Let's also not forget the fact that Itachi was not fighting to kill Sasuke, only to exhaust him and draw out Orochimaru.



Except for the fact that Sasuke had a wider arsenal, was significantly faster than Tobi, had better reaction speeds, and was more versatile? 

Sasuke would have done a lot better if he had Tobi's S/T and he was only *15.*


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Regardless, Obito may or may not be Tobi.
> He is weaker than most of the other people, and Tobi isn't.
> It is, however, possible he got stronger.
> Highly doubtful.
> ...



Yeah, but just like with so many other things, it's speculation, not concrete.  Don't give up hope just yet lol.



> Except for the fact that Sasuke had a wider arsenal, was significantly faster than Tobi, had better reaction speeds, and was more versatile?
> 
> Sasuke would have done a lot better if he had Tobi's S/T and he was only 15.



True, Sasuke did have a wider range of techniques and was more versatile.  Speed and reaction?  You can't really compare the two there, because they were both fighting different opponents at different levels of health.  There's no real baseline to measure the two against.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Just thought i'd repost this here:



			
				Me from page 5 of this thread said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: _Check this out_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Just thought i'd repost this here:



Indeed, that stuff does fit Obito, thus why he's a viable candidate.  Still isn't solid proof that it couldn't be anybody else though.


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

No one else really fits, though. The only other person I can think of is Izuna, and Madara said he was dead, whilst also knowing who Tobi is.

Obito definitely has the most evidence going for him, but you're right about it not being proven just yet. Just 2 more weeks...


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No one else really fits, though. The only other person I can think of is Izuna, and Madara said he was dead, whilst also knowing who Tobi is.
> 
> Obito definitely has the most evidence going for him, but you're right about it not being proven just yet. Just 2 more weeks...



Indeed, Obito is looking like the most supported candidate.  I'm really hoping the big reveal comes this week, rather than making us wait til 600.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 19, 2012)

*So, why wasn't Izuna resurrected?*

He was said to ber on par with Madara, he was a leader of the Uchiha, a Gods right hand man who wielded MS.

If Kabuto found Madara's DNA then he must of had Izuna's, unless...


----------



## ceralux (Aug 19, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Actually, Sasuke was shown to suppress that Kyuubi when he first met Naruto in Part 2. It's a base sharingan jutsu too - it's just a genjutsu to place the Kyuubi under your control.
> The fight argument is bullshit. Beginning of Part 2 Sasuke with Tobi's S/T technique would have done far better than Tobi. The "controlling Kurama" thing is a single jutsu. Naruto and Sasuke have both learned powerful jutsu in a day, so something like this isn't uncommon.
> The same could be said about Naruto in the beginning of Part 1. Look where he is now. That argument is bullshit. Don't even bother using that as a legitimate argument. Just because someone looks like a failure doesn't mean they'll stay that way.



I feel like none of you can read. When did I say anything about suppressing Kurama? I clearly said *control.* Sasuke has never been shown controlling the 9-tails so why are you bringing him up in this discussion? He simply can't, because it's not manga canon. Tobi and Madara are the only two to be shown with the ability to fully control Kurama. You make it sound like it's so fucking easy. Kakashi himself, who is a prime Kage candidate can't even compress Kurama, he needs Yamato to keep guidance on Naruto. It's not just a base jutsu. Your chakra has something to do with it.

Again, don't compare Sasuke and Obito. Sasuke was top of his class without his Sharingan. He's a genius unlike Obito. The scenario between the two of them are completely different.

What powerful jutsu did Naruto and Sasuke learn in one day? The fuck are you talking about. Stop making things up.

*15 Year Old Sasuke with S/T > Tobi at the start of the series*???? The fuck is wrong with you people.


----------



## socool8520 (Aug 19, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> He was said to ber on par with Madara, he was a leader of the Uchiha, a Gods right hand man who wielded MS.
> 
> If Kabuto found Madara's DNA then he must of had Izuna's, unless...


Interesting theory. It is plausible.

It would make sense if he was still alive that kabuto couldn't get him. But I could see where it would be hard to find his body though. Didn't Izuna supposedly die before the hidden leaf village was even created? There would be no maps of that area.


----------



## Tregis (Aug 19, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> He was said to ber on par with Madara, he was a leader of the Uchiha, a Gods right hand man who wielded MS.
> 
> If Kabuto found Madara's DNA then he must of had Izuna's, unless...


Tobi is Izuna. 

However, I believe Kabuto should've had access to Izuna's DNA, and as you said had to have a significant form of strength based off hype. Makes you wonder why Kabuto hadn't managed to get his DNA. 

Or, perhaps he really couldn't find it... but then where the hell did they bury him?


----------



## raizen28 (Aug 19, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> He was said to ber on par with Madara, he was a leader of the Uchiha, a Gods right hand man who wielded MS.
> 
> If Kabuto found Madara's DNA then he must of had Izuna's, unless...


Sasuke is his reincarnation...........Sasuke was compared to Madara like Izuna.......


----------



## ovanz (Aug 19, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> He was said to ber on par with Madara, he was a leader of the Uchiha, a Gods right hand man who wielded MS.
> 
> If Kabuto found Madara's DNA then he must of had Izuna's, unless...


He can't be as strong as current Madara, he didn't have ems, mokuton or rinnegan.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 19, 2012)

socool8520 said:


> Interesting theory. It is plausible.
> 
> It would make sense if he was still alive that kabuto couldn't get him. But I could see where it would be hard to find his body though. Didn't Izuna supposedly die before the hidden leaf village was even created? There would be no maps of that area.


Well he "died" shortly after Madara took his eyes, so yeah before Konoha, however he was apparently buried so someone must have known the location, unless...



ovanz said:


> He can't be as strong as current Madara, he didn't have ems, mokuton or rinnegan.



I never said he was


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 19, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> He was said to ber on par with Madara, he was a leader of the Uchiha, a Gods right hand man who wielded MS.
> 
> If Kabuto found Madara's DNA then he must of had Izuna's, unless...


if someone knew it must have been an uchiha
not many of them around anymore to ask


----------



## ovanz (Aug 19, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Well he "died" shortly after Madara took his eyes, so yeah before Konoha, however he was apparently buried so someone must have known the location, unless...



...He is Teruichi? no wonder we never see Teruichi's eyes, he doesn't have them.


----------



## Raiden (Aug 19, 2012)

ovanz said:


> *He can't be as strong as current Madara*, he didn't have ems, mokuton or rinnegan.



Right, he was on Madara's level when they both had the Mangeko Sharingan. Certainly though, he must have been above many of the shinobi revived by Edo Tensei (Kimmimaro, Asuma etc).


----------



## Tregis (Aug 19, 2012)

Raiden said:


> Right, he was on Madara's level when they both had the Mangeko Sharingan. Certainly though, he must have been above many of the shinobi revived by Edo Tensei (Kimmimaro, Asuma etc).



This. I'm sure Kabuto would have wanted Izuna if he could Edo Tensei him, makes you wonder why he wasn't revived.

Either he's still around (soul wise) Or he couldn't find any DNA.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 19, 2012)

Tregis said:


> This. I'm sure Kabuto would have wanted Izuna if he could Edo Tensei him, makes you wonder why he wasn't revived.
> 
> Either he's still around (soul wise) Or he couldn't find any DNA.


Tobi says hi


----------



## Johnny Kage (Aug 19, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> He was said to ber on par with Madara, he was a leader of the Uchiha, a Gods right hand man who wielded MS.
> 
> If Kabuto found Madara's DNA then he must of had Izuna's, unless...


People are ressurected like they died, he died without his eyes so he would be ressurected the same way and would be useless.

Take Nagato's legs example


----------



## Ubereem (Aug 19, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> He was said to ber on par with Madara, he was a leader of the Uchiha, a Gods right hand man who wielded MS.
> 
> If Kabuto found Madara's DNA then he must of had Izuna's, unless...


Some Unknown Location or you guess it.


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 19, 2012)

Johnny Kage said:


> People are ressurected like they died, he died without his eyes so he would be ressurected the same way and would be useless.
> 
> Take Nagato's legs example



makes me think why the hell he wanted to revive shisui then


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 19, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> He was said to ber on par with Madara, he was a leader of the Uchiha, a Gods right hand man who wielded MS.
> 
> If Kabuto found Madara's DNA then he must of had Izuna's, unless...


I know it's just a manga, but scientifically since you only need the DNA and not the body of the person you're trying to revive using Edo then his eyes would just be rebuilt. DNA is like a blueprint.


----------



## KingJiraiya (Aug 19, 2012)

If you think about it Obito is a bit like sasuke.

After the bolder hit Obito - X amount of time - Controlling Kyuubi 
After Sasuke leaves - Roughly same time - Beggining of part 2

You just need to ask, would sasuke be able to control Kyuubi at the beggining of part 2?
(If sasuke had been taught the way's to control it)


----------



## NW (Aug 19, 2012)

Notice anything?!:ho


----------



## Iruel (Aug 19, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Notice anything?!:ho



what are we supposed to notice aside from Tobi summoning Kurama?


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 19, 2012)

OMG



*Spoiler*: __ 



gai has the byakugan


----------



## Sareth (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Notice anything?!:ho


Are you referring to Kakashi noticing Tobi's presence? 

Btw, I'm really pissed that they changed this poll after I voted. I want to be one of the five people who voted for the Elder Son.


----------



## Easley (Aug 20, 2012)

Sareth said:


> Btw, I'm really pissed that they changed this poll after I voted. I want to be one of the five people who voted for the Elder Son.


The poll is locked for some reason. Elder Son would have more votes by now...

After last week's chapter there was a surge of voting for Obito. If this was horse racing you'd say he's odds-on favorite, but horses sometimes fall at the last fence. lol

I voted 'Other' and I'll stand by it. The Obito bandwagon is strong but I'm going to resist their influence to the bitter end!


----------



## rahulchaudhary (Aug 20, 2012)

why tobi is uchiha shisui:-
          1.shisui lost both of his eyes and tobi also don't have his eyes.

          2.shisui lost his one hand to danzou and tobi also dont have one hand which we know when he himself deattach his hand while fighting fou and torune.

          3.The hairstyle and height of tobi and shisui is same.

          4.There are many people who think that shisui is dead but they are wrong because there is no reason which denies or refuse the existence of shisui.when a person is dead then the corpse of the dead person is the biggest proof but there is no corpse of shisui. kabuto revives the dead peoples and kabuto himself not able to revive shisui because of lack of dna which also means shisui is alive. The three uchiha said they found the suicide note of shisui but not his dead body. Itachi himself said to sasuke that he killed shisui in order to awake ms but now we will able to know that itachi is lying to sasuke and he used all things to manipulate sasuke. so i said it earlier that there is no reason which denies or refuse the existence of shisui which means that shisui exists.

          5.Tobi controls the fourth mizukage yagura,now the only uchiha in history which can control the people like that is uchiha shisui because lady mizukage himself said to danzou when he used shisui's eye that there is some relation b/w the jutsu u use and the one which is used to control yugara. During this period shisui fought with A0 who knew his colour of chakras

          6.Remember the most important thing is that tobi never comes in front of A0 because A0 knew shisui's chakra. At the five kage summit tobi comes in when A0 leaves and run after danzou. So A0 and tobi never face each other.

          7.Akatsuki origins- tobi(shisui) himself tried to control and seal all the nine tail beasts but he fails which we know because he tries to control and seal the three tails which escapes to sea and he failed. tobi decided to form a organisation to seal all the nine tail beasts and kisame is the first member of akatsuki(except tobi and zetsu).

          8.obito's eye- shisui lives in konoha so he may know kakashi and guy very well. so there are many ways by which shisui can get obito's eye but here i will demonstrate to you one of the easiest way. we know that shisui can enter other peoples mind and manipulate them and the person himself not able to know it. shisui may involve in a fight alongside with kakashi and guy. then shisui able to realise that kakashi sharingan possess special abilities like copying abilities etc.so shisui want to know how he got that sharingan then shisui simply enter into kakashi's mind and know it, kakashi is not even able to realise it that shisui entered his mind. So somehow shisui got obito's eye.

          9. Now shisui has three eyes, two of his own and one of obito. At that night when shisui gave his eye to itachi then shisui lost both of his eyes one to danzou and other to itachi. shisui has one eye of obito which he use and wear a mask which shows only one eye like the orange mask and other mask which tobi wears during uchiha massacre .

          why peoples think that tobi is not shisui:-
          1.Tobi is old man:-many people think that tobi is a old man because when he slightly shows his face then some peoples saw some wrinkles and think that tobi is old man. Based on this assumption many peoples think that tobi is uchiha izuna or uchiha kagami because uchiha izuna or uchiha kagami is living right now then they are old and so they can tobi.But i think they are wrong until the full face of tobi is not shown we should not assume tobi to be a old man.In ch-597,pg-5,when tobi's hand is burning with amatersu then in this picture tobi dont look old and more like shisui.

          2.Age of shisui-the most important reason why peoples think that tobi is not shisui is that the age of shisui.Many peoples think that itachi and shisui are friends so the age of shisui is same as that of itachi. at the time of nine tail attack on konoha, itachi is six so shisui is also six years old. but in manga there is no proof of age of shisui. one can reread manga but there is no exact proof about age of shisui. If two peoples are friends then it does not mean that they are of same age.More important remember the three uchihas that came to itachi, one important thing i notice about them is that they called itachi a brat and have no respect for itachi in their heart. on the other hand the three uchihas respects shisui soo much and consider shisui most talented and most devotee to uchiha clan. the three uchihas even said to itachi that shisui is like elder brother to you so i have no doubt in my mind that shisui is older than itachi and it is self evident.

          3.Intention of tobi:-Many people think that shisui is a good guy who can't do such things. Even itachi told naruto that naruto and shisui has same goals or ideals. But i think tobi is not that bad guy. Tobi don't want to rule the world. Tobi don't want to conquer the world. Tobi only wants peace shisui also wants peace.tobi(shisui) and naruto both wants peace but their way is different.

          Things which we don't know about tobi(shisui):-
          1.how danzou got shisui's eye and arm?
          2.what the relation b/w tobi,nagato and madara?
          3.why a0 knows shisui?
          4. how shisui activate his ms?
          5.Role of itachi:-many people will say that if shisui is tobi then itachi will know it.This question is still not answerable .since i am waited to see the reaction of itachi when he know that edo madara is revived.But this not happened becaue itachi redied without knowing it.

          conclusion:-my question is that who will going to tell the truth about shisui? my answer is that shisui(tobi) himself will tell the whole story. I am convienced that tobi is shisui.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 20, 2012)

Has anyone PM'd a mod to see if they can open the poll again?

I don't think any other option is going to overtake Obito, especially if the next couple of chapters continue to hint at that outcome.


----------



## Sareth (Aug 20, 2012)

rahulchaudhary said:


> why tobi is uchiha shisui:-
> 1.shisui lost both of his eyes and tobi also don't have his eyes.
> 
> 2.shisui lost his one hand to danzou and tobi also dont have one hand which we know when he himself deattach his hand while fighting fou and torune.
> ...


No. Just no.


----------



## DUNGEON (Aug 20, 2012)

rahulchaudhary said:


> why tobi is uchiha shisui:-
> 1.shisui lost both of his eyes and tobi also don't have his eyes.
> 
> 2.shisui lost his one hand to danzou and tobi also dont have one hand which we know when he himself deattach his hand while fighting fou and torune.
> ...


can be true.Lets hope for it.


----------



## Monna (Aug 20, 2012)

rahulchaudhary said:


> why tobi is uchiha shisui:-
> 1.shisui lost both of his eyes and tobi also don't have his eyes.
> 
> 2.shisui lost his one hand to danzou and tobi also dont have one hand which we know when he himself deattach his hand while fighting fou and torune.
> ...


No he isn't. Let's just wait.


----------



## Tasq21 (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Notice anything?!:ho



the fact that Kurama was summoned without showing us Tobi using HIS blood.
(obviously Madara's then)
oh yee...the Kakashi thing too...


----------



## Jay. (Aug 20, 2012)

What if Kishi is fooling you guys again?


Tobi is nobody and loves to pretend to be others.


Pretty sure he's punking and faking it again to fuck Kakashi's mind emotionally.


----------



## Wiseman Deathphantom (Aug 20, 2012)

I don't support any of the numerous Tobi identity theories, but I'd really like to witness the shitstorm that will occur when it turns out that Tobi is half Obito and half Izuna, mind and body


----------



## Tasq21 (Aug 20, 2012)

Wiseman Deathphantom said:


> I don't support any of the numerous Tobi identity theories, but I'd really like to witness the shitstorm that will occur when it turns out that Tobi is half Obito and half Izuna, mind and body




those are my thoughts too.
well I still think tobi=obito but a weird feeling tells me he has something to do with Izuna.
Obito and Izuna have to many things in common and it would explain a lot.
just 1-2 more weeks...i can't wait


----------



## jacamo (Aug 20, 2012)

theres no way Tobi is Obito with all them plotholes

Obito was 9 years old when Tobi took over Kiri and Yagura...


----------



## socool8520 (Aug 20, 2012)

What is the case for elder son about? Wouldn't he be ridiculously old?


----------



## Easley (Aug 20, 2012)

socool8520 said:


> What is the case for elder son about? Wouldn't he be ridiculously old?


Yes, he would be extremely old if still alive, and he'd be pretty epic as a villain. It's always possible to explain a character's life prolongation if that is what the writer intends. Kakuzu for example. No one could predict his heart stealing method. Then there's the Uzumaki who have naturally long lives. He could also possess bodies, similar to Orochimaru, but I don't want a rehash. 

If Obito is involved only two scenarios are acceptable to me: it's Obito himself, mind and body, no one possessing him.... or just his eye, and Tobi is someone else. Using him as a 'container' is still possible though.


----------



## rahulchaudhary (Aug 20, 2012)

Sareth said:


> No. Just no.



why u think like this?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

rahulchaudhary said:


> why tobi is uchiha shisui:-
> 1.shisui lost both of his eyes and tobi also don't have his eyes.
> 
> 2.shisui lost his one hand to danzou and tobi also dont have one hand which we know when he himself deattach his hand while fighting fou and torune.
> ...


Order of events in Naruto.

1. Kyuubi attack with Tobi and right S/T eye.

2. Shisui gets right eye ripped by Danzo and look what I got for you Itachi hoo hoo hoo.

3. Tobi still has eye in Akatsuki with right S/T eye.

Shisui = Tobi is not likely.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

Easley said:


> Yes, he would be extremely old if still alive, and he'd be pretty epic as a villain. It's always possible to explain a character's life prolongation if that is what the writer intends. Kakuzu for example. No one could predict his heart stealing method. Then there's the Uzumaki who have naturally long lives. He could also possess bodies, similar to Orochimaru, but I don't want a rehash.
> 
> If Obito is involved only two scenarios are acceptable to me: it's Obito himself, mind and body, no one possessing him.... or just his eye, and Tobi is someone else. Using him as a 'container' is still possible though.



The only way I can see it being someone possessing Tobi's body would be if it was either his father Sakumo, or Rin.  Either one of those two would be an epic troll on Tobi's part, and a huge mindfuck for Kakashi.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 20, 2012)

Guys I just went through the whole Kakashi gaiden once again.
And I request all tobito believers to go through it again. (I'm sure many of you would already have).

Seriously there is no possible way obito can turn out like this.
I mean he was better than even naruto.
If a guy can sacrifice his life just for the sake of his friends, I don't think he can be corrupted by any means possible.
But again, this would come under the famous term oftenly used here, "assumption".

Now after reading chapter 244, tobito fans can easily conclude that nobody but only obito could have saved himself from dying. Otherwise the arguement of him being obito would be irrelevant from that very point.

Now the only possible way he could have saved himself would be, through his sharingan S/T.
Now lets just assume, even if he did manage to save himself, wouldn't it be common sense for such a kind and loving 13 year old boy, to go back to his village and meet the friends he was about to give his life for, and give them the awefantastic news that I'm alive and what an awesome new technique I just unclocked here.
But first things first, no way he could have unlocked that MS of his, under those boulders, since he did not witness death of any one close to him. Or maybe he made best-friends with an ant there and saw him die right in front of him. 
Neither can it be unlocked by the mere thought that he is about to lose all his friends. Thats absolutely absurd.
And since he did manage to get out of those boulders alive means his MS was not awakened from rin's death. (It is clear from panels that rin did not die the following day from obito's death or anytime soon).

Now after he somehow managed to unlock his MS, what are the odds that,as soon as he did that, he found a person as corrupt as madara or anyone else for that matter waiting for him to just come out of the great set of huge boulders and tell him his plan for total control over the planet which involves killing almost anyone who comes in his way.

At that very point, it would mean that madara (or anyone) would have been stalking obito, which is again irrelevant. Or again those in denial might even say that maybe madara (or anyone else, who wants to control the planet) meeting obito after coming out of those boulders is just a co-incidence.

I really don't know what to make of it guys.
other than all this, are the timeline i.e nagato's rinnegan and I don't know, how many more issues.

Tobito fans should really learn to quit. I mean, no matter what it doesn't make any sense unless masashi kishimoto introduces a complete new theory, arsenal of jutsus, a complete new timeline and what not.

Edit: From Ch 244 it can be made clear that obito had to save himself in less than 12 hours or else he wouldn't make it. That is not an assumption but pure science. So if he made it alive, why would he need to stalk rin and kakashi? And even if he did, why would he allow rin to even die in the first place instead of protecting her firsthand??


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> theres no way Tobi is Obito with all them plotholes
> 
> Obito was 9 years old when Tobi took over Kiri and Yagura...



Why do you guys keep saying that?  No panel shows Tobi controlled Yagura 21 years ago in the manga.  All we know is that someone was suspected of controlling Yagura during the bloody mist.  If there was... it doesn't mean it was Tobi.  

In the flash back we saw a masked man recruit Kisame it was almost 10 years after the bloody Mist when Obito would 18-20ish at most more likely 22.  It's an assumption that Tobi was the one controlling Yagura because he was controlling him 10 years later.



imsogettingbanned said:


> Guys I just went through the whole Kakashi gaiden once again.
> And I request all tobito believers to go through it again. (I'm sure many of you would already have).
> 
> Seriously there is no possible way obito can turn out like this.
> ...



It's a kids comic with magical eye powers.  Anything can happened.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 20, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Why do you guys keep saying that?  No panel shows Tobi controlled Yagura 21 years ago in the manga.  All we know is that someone was suspected of controlling Yagura during the bloody mist.  If there was... it doesn't mean it was Tobi.
> 
> In the flash back we saw a masked man recruit Kisame it was almost 10 years after the bloody Mist when Obito would 18-20ish at most more likely 22.  It's an assumption that Tobi was the one controlling Yagura because he was controlling him 10 years later.



so now the masked man who controlled Yagura wasnt Tobi at all


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## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

rahulchaudhary said:


> why tobi is uchiha shisui:-
> 1.shisui lost both of his eyes and tobi also don't have his eyes.
> 
> 2.shisui lost his one hand to danzou and tobi also dont have one hand which we know when he himself deattach his hand while fighting fou and torune.
> ...


How did Shisui grow his hair so long in such a short time period? How could a famous and renowned shinobi such as Shisui have been controlling Yagura for so long without anyone noticing?



jacamo said:


> theres no way Tobi is Obito with all them plotholes


Repeating it over and over isn't going to make it true. Every day it's just "too many plotholes, hurr durr, to many plotholes" over and OVER again. yet you don't listen to other people's explanations on why they're not plotholes. I can't fucking wait 'till the reveal so your shit can end. Even when the "plotholes" are explained you'll still call them plotholes when they're clearly not, just to bitch about it. in fact, some of those "plotholes" you listed don't even NEED to be explained, such as the height thing and Tobi claiming that he gave the Rinnegan to Nagato and spurred Yahiko to form Akatsuki. Because you know what, this might be hard for you to process but, they're NOT plotholes!


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> so now the masked man who controlled Yagura wasnt Tobi at all



No the masked man controlling Yagura could be Tobi. 

But it has nothing to do with the bloody mist which happened nearly a decade before the flash back of Kisame/Masked Man/Yagura.


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## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

jacamo, you still haven't explained those Kagami plotholes.


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## Easley (Aug 20, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> No the masked man controlling Yagura could be Tobi.
> 
> But it has nothing to do with the bloody mist which happened nearly a decade before the flash back of Kisame/Masked Man/Yagura.


Whoever controlled Yagura likely instigated the Bloody Mist era too. If not, I assume it was Madara who set things in motion and Tobi merely inherited the position; but why? What is there to gain by ruling Kirigakure in secret?


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## Punished Pathos (Aug 20, 2012)

Easley said:


> Whoever controlled Yagura likely instigated the Bloody Mist era too. If not, I assume it was Madara who set things in motion and Tobi merely inherited the position; but why? What is there to gain by ruling Kirigakure in secret?



Tobi was shaping the state of the ninja world.
Can't any of you see that?
Tobi helped the Ame Orphans found Atkasuki.
Most of the Five Ninja Villiages used Atkasuki to fight their own battles (Before the group became strictly Jinchuriki Hunters.)
Tobi was causing an unrest in the Mist to bring an inbalance in the Ninja World. His actions resulted in many deaths, he also took advantage of the state of unrest by recruiting powerful Ninja such as Kisame.
Tobi likely had his eye on Yagura due to him having the Sanbi(Three tails)
In my mind, Tobi was setting the pieces in motion.
I believe Tobi was responsible for Yagura's death. I could see him ripping out the Sanbi thus killing Yagura. The Ninja Villages were at odds with eachother in a way before the alliance.
Tobi's actions caused the rift in an indirect manner.

Also during the Kage Summit, Onoki believed that the Akatsuki was founded in the mist when in reality, its birthplace was Amegakure.
Tobi proably operated in the mist to draw attention away from Amegakure. It makes since to an extent and Villages would always look at the Mist with caution, creating an air of mistrust.


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## jacamo (Aug 20, 2012)

ive supported my Obito plotholes with manga panels

you have supported your "explanations" with assumptions and fan ficion


----------



## Easley (Aug 20, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> Tobi was shaping the state of the ninja world.
> Can't any of you see that?
> Tobi helped the Ame Orphans found Atkasuki.
> Most of the Five Ninja Villiages used Atkasuki to fight their own battles (Before the group became strictly Jinchuriki Hunters.)
> Tobi was causing an unrest in the Mist to bring an inbalance in the Ninja World. His actions resulted in many deaths, he also took advantage of the state of unrest by recruiting powerful Ninja such as Kisame.


That's the problem - a lot of people think it was Madara and not Tobi who started these events. I hope it's Tobi, but until we know Madara's exact time of death (in years) he could still be around to control Yagura. 

Kishi said the two know each other, which means they likely planned all this together.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> ive supported my Obito plotholes with manga panels
> 
> you have supported your "explanations" with assumptions and fan ficion


 Okay, then. This next quote is not an assumption. It is based on manga FACTS from the latest chapter. Look at this plothole for Kagami and answer it without "fanfiction" because you say we shouldn't use that to explain the "plotholes":



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So guys, if Tobi's not Obito... how would he have known that there was someone trapped under all those boulders with a two tomoe sharingan that had the capability of haxxed ass Space-Time Ninjutsu? Furthermore, the only way he COULD know that is if he was stalking Obito and Kakashi on their mission for no reason. You could say he was stalking them in order to get Obito's eyes, but why him? Why not take the eyes of another Uchiha? A stronger one? I mean, unless Tobi magically has the power to tell the potential of each sharingan he sees.
> 
> One more thing. Tobi got Obito's sharingan DURING the BATTLE of Kannabi Bridge. Which means that if Tobi's not Obito, then he 100% WAS stalking Obito and Kakashi on their mission, which makes NO sense. Don't say that it was AT Kannabi Bridge, because that's not where the whole boulder incident happened.



Now, what about Kagami that's not "fanfiction" can explain this?

Also, you once said: 





			
				jacamo said:
			
		

> technically only one plothole is needed to disprove a theory.



So, by your logic, Tobi's not Kagami.

And we won't listen to your "fanfiction" explanations unless you listen to ours. 

Deal?


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

People do know that it's impossible to have a theory regarding Tobi without "fanfiction" right?

Just thought I would clear that up.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

Awesome said:
			
		

> People do know that it's impossible to have a theory regarding Tobi without "fanfiction" right?
> 
> Just thought I would clear that up.


Most people do, but jacamo's the exception.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 20, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> Guys I just went through the whole Kakashi gaiden once again.
> And I request all tobito believers to go through it again. (I'm sure many of you would already have).
> 
> Seriously there is no possible way obito can turn out like this.
> ...



Tobi is not obito.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm still waiting for your "Mind Blowing Theory" that is "fact" and uses no "fanfiction" imsogettingbanned.


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## Jay Kay (Aug 20, 2012)

*Tobi and "No one"*

I know there's a "general Tobi's identity thread" somewhere. I don't know if this just fits there and doesn't deserve a whole thread but...
Sorry if I should've just put it there.

Anyway, I wonder if this possibility of his identity has ever been brought up or discussed? 
It's an idea that I personally find extremely appealing, and would love it if Kishimoto went that way.

Simply put, what if Tobi was, as he once called himself, "no one"? Literally.
By that I mean, what if he was no one special: No member of any super powerful clan, no one famous or historically significant (yet), not of any particularely prestigious birth, or any such thing.
Just a random ninja from somewhere, who managed to manipulate and mess the world up this much while just being an average joe...at first.

It would be absolutely great, thematically mainly, for this manga don't you think?


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 20, 2012)

Awesome said:


> I'm still waiting for your "Mind Blowing Theory" that is "fact" and uses no "fanfiction" imsogettingbanned.



I told you already, I don't need any theory.

And also I don't want to prove who tobi is.

All I'm trying to do here is prove that tobi cannot be obito.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

There's information out there that proves that Tobi is pretty much nobody. There's flaws in every theory, and there will be until Kishi explains everything. No matter the theory, there is evidence against it.

That's why I want to know who you "know" he is.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 20, 2012)

Awesome said:


> There's information out there that proves that Tobi is pretty much nobody. There's flaws in every theory, and there will be until Kishi explains everything. No matter the theory, there is evidence against it.



Precisely.



Awesome said:


> That's why I want to know who you "know" he is.



I have said already, I cannot say that.
Call it "you don't have proof" or "he's just trolling the shit out of us".
Also I said its irrelevant what I know or not.

All I'm trying to do is relate here with facts/evidence/proofs.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 20, 2012)

Jay Kay said:


> I know there's a "general Tobi's identity thread" somewhere. I don't know if this just fits there and doesn't deserve a whole thread but...
> Sorry if I should've just put it there.
> 
> Anyway, I wonder if this possibility of his identity has ever been brought up or discussed?
> ...


I would agree with you, if Kishimoto didn't make the mystery of Tobi's identity such a big thing. Considering he did, there being no pay off, and Tobi just being some random scrub from some random minor village would be terrible writing.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

There are a lot of plotholes, actually

1 - The hair is nowhere near exact
2 - way too many assumptions, especially with the Kyuubi incident. The Uchiha were blamed for the incident. Why would they be blamed if they were helping on the front lines
3 - Danzou wasn't there and he was alive at the time. He *must* be Danzou.
4 - How did he get Obito's sharingan? How was he at the battle of Kannabi Bridge?
5 - If you want a sobby backstory, just ask Obito. 
6 - Why would Kagami have issues with Kakashi?

And those are just the ones off the top of my head, Masked Man.



imsogettingbanned said:


> I have said already, I cannot say that.
> Call it "you don't have proof" or "he's just trolling the shit out of us".
> Also I said its irrelevant what I know or not.



So basically you don't really give a shit about who he is and just want to prove Tobito wrong?


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 20, 2012)

Awesome said:


> There are a lot of plotholes, actually
> 
> 1 - The hair is nowhere near exact
> 2 - way too many assumptions, especially with the Kyuubi incident. The Uchiha were blamed for the incident. Why would they be blamed if they were helping on the front lines
> ...



He pretty much stated reasons for those points.




Awesome said:


> So basically you don't really give a shit about who he is and just want to prove Tobito wrong?



You can say that.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

Except those reasons are pure fanfiction, things he created to make Kagami seem like Tobi. In reality, his true reason is "He was in Tobirama's squad".

Is that really good enough evidence for a Tobi theory?


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 20, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Except those reasons are pure fanfiction, things he created to make Kagami seem like Tobi. In reality, his true reason is "He was in Tobirama's squad".
> 
> Is that really good enough evidence for a Tobi theory?



LOL. His fanfictions are still at least possible, unlike tobito holes.
Like it has been already stated, T.I.T have to be based on *possible* fanfiction and assumptions, since very little is known about tobi's past and character.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> Guys I just went through the whole Kakashi gaiden once again.
> And I request all tobito believers to go through it again. (I'm sure many of you would already have).


 
I have numerous times



> Seriously there is no possible way obito can turn out like this.
> I mean he was better than even naruto.
> If a guy can sacrifice his life just for the sake of his friends, I don't think he can be corrupted by any means possible.
> But again, this would come under the famous term oftenly used here, "assumption".



There was no possible way a boy like Nagato who loved his friends and teacher would have become the one known as Pein who mercilessly butchered anyone in his way be it friends family or children associated with Hanzo, kill his teacher, blow up an entire village, and then change again to believeing in Naruto resurrecting said village people he killed, and smile when he sees naruto has gotten strong while making jokes. See I can do it too.




> Now after reading chapter 244, tobito fans can easily conclude that nobody but only obito could have saved himself from dying. Otherwise the arguement of him being obito would be irrelevant from that very point.
> 
> Now the only possible way he could have saved himself would be, through his sharingan S/T.


or zetsu saved him, but no im a proponent of spontaneous MS activating



> Now lets just assume, even if he did manage to save himself, wouldn't it be common sense for such a kind and loving 13 year old boy, to go back to his village and meet the friends he was about to give his life for, and give them the awefantastic news that I'm alive and what an awesome new technique I just unclocked here.
> But first things first, no way he could have unlocked that MS of his, under those boulders, since he did not witness death of any one close to him. Or maybe he made best-friends with an ant there and saw him die right in front of him.
> Neither can it be unlocked by the mere thought that he is about to lose all his friends. Thats absolutely absurd.
> And since he did manage to get out of those boulders alive means his MS was not awakened from rin's death. (It is clear from panels that rin did not die the following day from obito's death or anytime soon).
> ...



All you keep doing is saying there is no way he could have, no way blank activated, no way he would have met, and no way he wouldn't have gone home.
 He could have, MS is strong emotion of losing someone, he was losing his new 'best friend' and love interest, and boulders falling=enough time to kick in and affect change. Kakashi didn't lose anyone recently and he activated MS. Delayed affect of feeling the regret over super fast affect of feeling the regret. and yes obito had regret. or Zetsu could have saved him being the land itself. Maybe he met madara in the other dimension, its possible, or his sharingan was coded to go to a nearest sharingan, idk, idc, its just possible madara found him. and he would not have been able to go back home right away because he was severely damaged. his body obviously isn't normal as tobi. so it seems appropriate he was able to recover with zetsu goo taking on aspects of his body.
All you do it say its impossible then make assumptions based on the fact. You can say its unlikely, but it is FAR from impossible my friend.

*
EDIT; At this point I'm getting sick of your arguments, all you keep doing is saying unlikely its so improbable. Yes its VERY unlikely, BUTTTTTTTTT with the hints and pieces from the manga, it is the MOST likely occurence compared to the others. far from impossible. 
either way that eye went to someone at that battle. And there is nothing special about that 2 tomoe sharingan until it turns into an MS.
To say it is anyone else makes it far FAR more unlikely than Obito using his own eye in MS mode.*



jacamo said:


> so now the masked man who controlled Yagura wasnt Tobi at all



No, the point is the masked man wasn't controlling yagura during the WHOLE time the bloody mist occurred. most likely it began, and tobi just continued it. the fact that the academy practice of killing was STOPPED should imply this as Tobi wouldn't stop such a practice.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> There was no possible way a boy like Nagato who loved his friends and teacher would have become the one known as Pein who mercilessly butchered anyone in his way be it friends family or children associated with Hanzo, kill his teacher, blow up an entire village, and then change again to believeing in Naruto resurrecting said village people he killed, and smile when he sees naruto has gotten strong while making jokes. See I can do it too.



Nagato was corrupted in different situation. Not in a single speech by someone in the past. He himself saw everyone close to him (including almost his village) die right in front of his eyes.
But like I said, il leave that to assumptions.




Mistshadow said:


> or zetsu saved him, but no im a proponent of spontaneous MS activating



How can zetsu save him?? Now why all of a sudden is zetsu interested in a simple 2 tomoe sharingan eyed uchiha??
If zetsu can save him according to you, then izuna stole his eye according to me. 


Mistshadow said:


> All you keep doing is saying there is no way he could have, no way blank activated, no way he would have met, and no way he wouldn't have gone home.
> He could have, MS is strong emotion of losing someone, he was losing his new 'best friend' and love interest, and boulders falling=enough time to kick in and affect change.


Seriously, I don't even feel like arguing with you.
"Mangeykyou sharingan is activated after witnessing death of someone close to you." Want me to translate in your native language?


Mistshadow said:


> Kakashi didn't lose anyone recently and he activated MS. Delayed affect of feeling the regret over super fast affect of feeling the regret. and yes obito had regret. or Zetsu could have saved him being the land itself. Maybe he met madara in the other dimension, its possible, or his sharingan was coded to go to a nearest sharingan, idk, idc, its just possible madara found him.



Oh my god, "he met madara in the other dimension". Seriously??
Can you for a change debate on basis of facts.
I didn't even bother to read further. Looking by your immature reasoning, I don't think I might reply to you now, unless you can debate on logic and facts.


----------



## MaskedMan88 (Aug 20, 2012)

Awesome said:


> There are a lot of plotholes, actually
> 
> 1 - The hair is nowhere near exact
> 2 - way too many assumptions, especially with the Kyuubi incident. The Uchiha were blamed for the incident. Why would they be blamed if they were helping on the front lines
> ...



1) The hair is pretty frieken close... what are you looking at?
2) I said there alot of it was a theory... thats all it is... like everyone else.  Of course there is assumptions.. I am just showing that tobi being kagami has potential for interesting backstory.
3) So what the Uchiha were blamed for the incident? Thats not the point what really happened was tobi attacked the village... If anything they blamed the Uchiha to cover it up.  And i never said the Uchiha were in the front lines... I said Hiruzen was fighting the fox along with the rest of team tobirama and kagami is the only one not there... If he was a good guy im sure he would fight... he was believed dead anyway so ofcourse he wouldnt be there... he could have faked his death just like madara did. 
4) Ummmm could have zetsu eaily get his eye from obitos body or grave.. he could have gotten it himself just like how he went to go get nagatos rinnegan back...
5) Obito wouldnt be a soby backstory... it would be confusing and dumb cause of the REAL plotholes like the age and knowledge thing... And him fighting the 4th hokage on equal ground only a few years after his supposed death... besides i dont think kakashi and the 4th and rin would just leave obitos body there to rot under a rock... they probably buried him.
6)I stated before Kagami could be of lineage to obito and have resentment toward him. 

As i said alot of this is specualtion...

only facts we have on kagami was he was in team tobirama and well he was probably strong and he is believed dead and if he was alive he would be the 3rd hokage and danzous age. That is all we have... soooooo there is literally NO plotholes that cant be explained in backstory that actually make sense.


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## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

Easley said:


> Whoever controlled Yagura likely instigated the Bloody Mist era too. If not, I assume it was Madara who set things in motion and Tobi merely inherited the position; but why? What is there to gain by ruling Kirigakure in secret?



Yes, it's possible.  But if Tobi is Obito than he likely would have had to inherited the control because as people point out the Bloody Mist ended when Obito was 9.  Or someone unrelated was controling Yagura or Yagura was in on it at some point before being controlled or Yagura was just evil.  

But doesn't the the Bloody Mist/Root thing should like something Uchiha would do to awaken MS?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

It's been confirmed that Tobi controlled Yagura during the bloody mist era.
Obito would have been 7 or 8 during that time.

Math proves Obito would have only been 14 during the fight between Tobi and Minato.


So, overall.
If Tobi=Obito

1.He fought at Kage level with one year of training.
2.He managed to slip out of the village for a couple years when he was 8 to control Kirigakure


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## ovanz (Aug 20, 2012)

Jay Kay said:


> I know there's a "general Tobi's identity thread" somewhere. I don't know if this just fits there and doesn't deserve a whole thread but...
> Sorry if I should've just put it there.
> 
> Anyway, I wonder if this possibility of his identity has ever been brought up or discussed?
> ...


Tobi was just a wannabe chef, he was seaking for ingredients, then he just happen to find Obito, as he cound't cook the eye, he just implanted that eye on himself , because that's what any chef would do, then he gained super powers and went evil, fought Minato, after Minato died he create his evil organization of mercenaries so he got enough income money to open his ramen shop, thus Ichiraku ramen empire of food was created.

Yes it make sense, he didn't come from a ninja clan.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 20, 2012)

Jay Kay said:


> I know there's a "general Tobi's identity thread" somewhere. I don't know if this just fits there and doesn't deserve a whole thread but...
> Sorry if I should've just put it there.
> 
> Anyway, I wonder if this possibility of his identity has ever been brought up or discussed?
> ...


No, Tobi has to be someone we've already seen or know. The reveal be would anti-climatic if he just turned out to be some random dude.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> Nagato was corrupted in different situation. Not in a single speech by someone in the past. He himself saw everyone close to him (including almost his village) die right in front of his eyes.
> But like I said, il leave that to assumptions.



Yet he attributes only 2 events in his life. Events of pain to make him who he was that day. Dog dying, and Yahiko dying. He said it himself, those are teh only 2 moments that changed him. before yahiko dying he was a lot like naruto, happy go lucky, belief he can change world, then over night bam we get Pein.



imsogettingbanned said:


> How can zetsu save him?? Now why all of a sudden is zetsu interested in a simple 2 tomoe sharingan eyed uchiha??
> If zetsu can save him according to you, then izuna stole his eye according to me.



seriously learn to fucking read. I never said it was zetsu, I said it was Obito's MS ability activating. I merely offered a second POSSIBILITY. A less likely POSSIBILITY. 



imsogettingbanned said:


> Seriously, I don't even feel like arguing with you.
> "Mangeykyou sharingan is activated after witnessing death of someone close to you." Want me to translate in your native language?


Cool tell that to Kakashi now then please.
And even Sasuke too who didn't get it until AFTER he felt his emotion of sadness
Shodai's chakra  
Shodai's chakra 



imsogettingbanned said:


> Oh my god, "he met madara in the other dimension". Seriously??
> Can you for a change debate on bases of facts.
> I didn't even bother to read further. Looking by your immature reasoning, I don't think I might reply to you now, unless you can debate on logic and facts.


AGAIN , you are asking questions that there are no answers to at the moment. you can't offer them up as reasons why obito can't be tobi, and then get angry about a simple method of how that can be explained. if i can give a method on them meeting, so can fucking kishimoto



Fureikusu Kira said:


> It's been confirmed that Tobi controlled Yagura during the bloody mist era.
> Obito would have been 7 or 8 during that time.



At SOME POINT during the bloody mist era after kyuubi attack. Somehow Yagura became Kage on his own keep in mind. And we don't know if Tobi began the bloody mist era. IF he began it, then you are right, but IF he didn't begin it, then you are wrong. But even if you are right, there is the possibility of Madara himself having done so before and given the reigns to Tobi. 
The only scene we get of Tobi during said time is conveniently when Obito would be old enough to be there.


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## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Yet he attributes only 2 events in his life. Events of pain to make him who he was that day. Dog dying, and Yahiko dying. He said it himself, those are teh only 2 moments that changed him. before yahiko dying he was a lot like naruto, happy go lucky, belief he can change world, then over night bam we get Pein.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The witnessing a death thing is true.
It's been confirmed.

For Kakashi, he's witnessed a shitload of deaths of people close to him.
Though, I think in a filler it said he befriended a tree and then killed it.
lmfao.

Yeah, MS needs close death.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> LOL. His fanfictions are still at least possible, unlike tobito holes.
> Like it has been already stated, T.I.T have to be based on *possible* fanfiction and assumptions, since very little is known about tobi's past and character.


You only say our explanations aren't possible because you don't want to believe them. Bottom line, you're a horrible debater.



MaskedMan88 said:


> 1) The hair is pretty frieken close... what are you looking at?
> 2) I said there alot of it was a theory... thats all it is... like everyone else.  Of course there is assumptions.. I am just showing that tobi being kagami has potential for interesting backstory.
> 3) So what the Uchiha were blamed for the incident? Thats not the point what really happened was tobi attacked the village... If anything they blamed the Uchiha to cover it up.  And i never said the Uchiha were in the front lines... I said Hiruzen was fighting the fox along with the rest of team tobirama and kagami is the only one not there... If he was a good guy im sure he would fight... he was believed dead anyway so ofcourse he wouldnt be there... he could have faked his death just like madara did.
> 4) Ummmm could have zetsu eaily get his eye from obitos body or grave.. he could have gotten it himself just like how he went to go get nagatos rinnegan back...
> ...


I've already listed a plothole for Kagami on the previous page. And who cares if he has no plotholes anyway?! Tobi being Kagami would be stupid and have a dumb backstory because we don't know anything about him and we won't care about his character.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> It's been confirmed that Tobi controlled Yagura during the bloody mist era.
> Obito would have been 7 or 8 during that time.
> 
> Math proves Obito would have only been 14 during the fight between Tobi and Minato.
> ...


No where was it confirmed that Tobi controlled Yagura during the Bloody Mist Era for the whole time.

Also, Obito would have been at least 15 when he fought Minato. We've already shown you why it is far from impossible for him to have fought him.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You only say our explanations aren't possible because you don't want to believe them. Bottom line, you're a horrible debater.
> 
> I've already listed a plothole for Kagami on the previous page. And who cares if he has no plotholes anyway?! Tobi being Kagami would be stupid and have a dumb backstory because we don't know anything about him and we won't care about his character.
> 
> ...



No, he was 14.
Do the math.
Obito and Kakashi were both 13 when Obito died.
Edit: Meaning Obito died after September.

Kakashi was 14 when the attack on Konoha happened.
How did Obito get an extra year?
January-Obito turns 14
September-Kakashi turns 14
October-Naruto is born
Start of part 1-Naruto is 12, Kakashi is 26.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> The witnessing a death thing is true.
> It's been confirmed.
> 
> For Kakashi, he's witnessed a shitload of deaths of people close to him.
> ...



So did Obito, he lived through a war. There is far more to witnessing a death for the MS than you think. And getting the MS doesn't happen instantly. In fact from what we've seen you witness the LOSS of something and feel the emotion of regret.
Look at how many times we've seen the activation of MS.

Madara and Izuna are unknowns.
Shisui is an unknown.
Itachi was probably sad and regretful helping Shisui die.
Kakashi has his dad, Rin, and Obito die in his youth. 16 years later activates MS (*Possibly by feeling the emotion finally*)
Sasuke watches Itachi die, Amaterasu seal hits Tobi, Tobi tells Sasuke story of Itachi, Sasuke changes goes out and thinks, sasuke cries, Sasuke activates MS. 

Wasn't from the death itself but the EMOTION of the death. EMOTIONS can same for 2 different situations. 
Best friend dying in front of you would make you feel the same as You about to die in front of your best friend. You would still feel the sadness of LOSING your best friend.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:
			
		

> No, he was 14.
> Do the math.
> Obito and Kakashi were both 13 when Obito died.
> Edit: Meaning Obito died after September.
> ...


Denial. Denial everywhere.


----------



## MaskedMan88 (Aug 20, 2012)

onitouchiha...

Your statement on my post is obviously biased... alot of people want it to be kagami... and kagami could have an amazing backstory... way better than obito... Kagami has alot of potential... do u speak for everyone saying no one cares about his character


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> So did Obito, he lived through a war. There is far more to witnessing a death for the MS than you think. And getting the MS doesn't happen instantly. In fact from what we've seen you witness the LOSS of something and feel the emotion of regret.
> Look at how many times we've seen the activation of MS.
> 
> Madara and Izuna are unknowns.
> ...



We don't know for sure.
We can only go on what we've been told.
So far, we've been told that MS activates when the feeling of losing someone close to you happens.

That's all we know about it.
It's okay to have a theory or use speculation, but don't pass them off as facts.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Denial. Denial everywhere.



Denial?
That's math.
Naruto was born in October. Meaning the attack was in October.
Kakashi turns 14 in September.
He would have just turned 14 when Naruto was born, meaning Obito would have turned 14 in January.
How does that make Obito 15? 
Math, man. Math.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Yet he attributes only 2 events in his life. Events of pain to make him who he was that day. Dog dying, and Yahiko dying. He said it himself, those are teh only 2 moments that changed him. before yahiko dying he was a lot like naruto, happy go lucky, belief he can change world, then over night bam we get Pein.


Can you fucking read? I said it can be assumption.




Mistshadow said:


> seriously learn to fucking read. I never said it was zetsu, I said it was Obito's MS ability activating. I merely offered a second POSSIBILITY. A less likely POSSIBILITY.


So I guess now you agree nobody was stalking obito, and he did not meet zetsu or madara. And he escaped from those boulders by activating his MS.



Mistshadow said:


> Cool tell that to Kakashi now then please.
> And even Sasuke too who didn't get it until AFTER he felt his emotion of sadness
> Shodai's chakra
> Shodai's chakra



It took kakashi more than 15 years to activate his MS not just 10 hours under huge boulders.
And how did he activate it is still unknown.
Sasuke on the other hand unlocked it from learning about Itachi's truth. And he did witness the death of Itachi. Which makes Itachi his special someone. 



Mistshadow said:


> AGAIN , you are asking questions that there are no answers to at the moment. you can't offer them up as reasons why obito can't be tobi, and then get angry about a simple method of how that can be explained. if i can give a method on them meeting, so can fucking kishimoto



If he unlocked his MS and escaped and no one was stalking him, then how did he repair his damaged body? And why didn't he head straight for the village? 
You yourself are implying he saved himself then how did madara just "simply" find him?
And even if madara found him, then why is he all of a sudden interested in a 2 tomoe sharingan eyed uchiha?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> We don't know for sure.
> We can only go on what we've been told.
> So far, we've been told that MS activates when the feeling of losing someone close to you happens.
> 
> ...



ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. I'm not passing them off as facts. This is to the guy who is sprouting its IMPOSSIBLE for Obito to have activated MS and survived. When in fact there is far too much about MS activation that is unkown


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Timeline
Obito and Kakashi are both 13 at the time of Kakashi Gaiden.

When Obito died, he and Kakashi were both 13 according to the databook.
That places Obito's death sometime after September.

The very next year in October, Konoha is attacked by the masked man.
Kakashi is only 14. Meaning so was Obito.

How do I know? The databook says Kakashi is 26 at the start of part 1. Naruto is 12.
26-12=14. Naruto is born in October, Kakashi in September.
At the time of the attack, Kakashi would have just turned 14.
Obito would have turned 14 in January.
He can't be 15.
This also proves there was only one year.

Also, if you notice Tobi has never been shown using MS.
He may not even have it.



Mistshadow said:


> ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. I'm not passing them off as facts. This is to the guy who is sprouting its IMPOSSIBLE for Obito to have activated MS and survived. When in fact there is far too much about MS activation that is unkown


I never said it's impossible. In fact if you READ my earlier posts I said Obito almost makes the most sense.
I'm simply stating reasons that could be why it's not Obito.
Quit getting butthurt.


----------



## Minato007001 (Aug 20, 2012)

Guys it's just my guess but i am damn sure here's m explanation

kakashi have one of the sharingan of obito's....that's why in there eye techniques (i.e kakashi's kamui and tobi's space time ninjutsu) the object goes to the same dimensions...

Also tobi has only one eye(sahringan) before he took rinnegan from nagato
Also the corpse of obito haven't discovered yet..

Also if look closely at Tobi's sharingan its the same as kakashi's...
Also in manga chapter no 594 tobi says to kakshi "Kakashi...you always open your mouth so easily. It's no wonder you've lived a life of regret.."
and then guy ask "just who are you" to which tobi replies "You don't remember faces, so what point is there in telling you"....
he is speaking as if he is an old acquaintance of kakashi...


----------



## nadinkrah (Aug 20, 2012)

The math  is too much for them.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

imsogettingbanned said:


> Can you fucking read?* I said it can be assumption.*
> 
> So I guess now you agree nobody was stalking obito, and he did not meet zetsu or madara. And he escaped from those boulders by activating his MS.
> 
> ...



Cool so your thought basis on negating stuff can be made on assumptions but a thought basis to retaliate can NOT be made on assumptions. Love your logic, so flawless, oh teach me how to use deductive reasoning master.

I agree on nothing because we don't know. We can assume ONE of THREE situations here. What is most likely is up to you, but it IS one of these three. And the fact you don't see that means you don't realize it CAN be Obito, but it Can also be someone else. Now what is the most likely should be obvious though. You saying they are all unlikely is true, but we know it happened, so get the fuck over it.
A-Obito activated MS and got away in the other dimension, where he went to after is unkown and how he met madara is unkown
B-Zetsu being the land itself or Madara being as strong as he is stalked Obito during the war and needing someone to carry on his work saved him at the last moment to train and brainwash.
C-Kagami Izuna or some other mystery identity was stalking Obito, somehow knew he had S/T jutsu in that 2 tomoe if turned into an MS. So followed him all through 2nd war hoping he would die and then stole his eye right when he was dying at the battle of kannabi bridge all unnoticed.
What seems the most likely to you?

Why is someone interested in a 2 tomoe sharingan AT ALL. The answer is most likely NO ONE WAS. And Obito learned about it through activation itself and training afterwards. Every other story is unlikely for using Obito's eye unless it was Obito himself
So one extreme of a long time can be done, but an extreme of a short time can't? That's like saying someone can walk a mile in 1 hour, but nobody can run a mile in 5 minutes.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

PLEASE do not turn your statements around on me.
ALL I have done is state things I've read in the manga to support my beliefs.
I don't know who Tobi is, nor do I have a firm belief.
Unlike you, I'm not riding one particular scenario.  I'm open to all possibilities and am using reasoning obtained from the manga to debunk certain theories.
You're mad because I have debunked yours.

There are TWO possible situations here, no more no less.
1.Tobi is Obito and got poweful in one year.
2.Tobi is not Obito but has his eye.

Also, Tobi has never been shown to use MS. Not once.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> PLEASE do not turn your statements around on me.
> ALL I have done is state things I've read in the manga to support my beliefs.
> I don't know who Tobi is, nor do I have a firm belief.
> Unlike you, I'm not riding one particular scenario.  I'm open to all possibilities and am using reasoning obtained from the manga to debunk certain theories.
> ...



i'm not talking to you im talking to imsogettingbanned
and i too am riding all the possibilities. I have a ranking on most to least likeliness

also you can NOT say the jutsu is not an MS jutsu. It's as confirmed as can be without outright stating it. Unless you think Obito had one eye that had S/T in 3 tomoes but the other eye required MS to use S/T


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> i'm not talking to you im talking to imsogettingbanned



I realized.
I removed the quote.
I apologize.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

MaskedMan88 said:
			
		

> onitouchiha...
> 
> Your statement on my post is obviously biased... alot of people want it to be kagami... and kagami could have an amazing backstory... way better than obito... Kagami has alot of potential... do u speak for everyone saying no one cares about his character


Ask a casual fan and not an extremist and they'll say it's bullshit. People want Tobi to be someone they care about and not some random guy they've never seen. If it's Kagami they'll immediately have to google it. Tobi being someone we know and someone connected to the main characters is far better than him being someone only connected to an old ass man everyone hates. What's the point of a sob story if no one cares about him? Kagami also would have no reason to have such a personal problem with Kakashi.

Why should Tobi be someone introduced so many chapters after him?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Ask a casual fan and not an extremist and they'll say it's bullshit. People want Tobi to be someone they care about and not some random guy they've never seen. If it's Kagami they'll immediately have to google it. Tobi being someone we know and someone connected to the main characters is far better than him being someone only connected to an old ass man everyone hates. What's the point of a sob story if no one cares about him? Kagami also would have no reason to have such a personal problem with Kakashi.
> 
> Why should Tobi be someone introduced so many chapters after him?



Unless he's Obito's dad.
That's a possibility.
Which would explain why he's pissed at Kakashi and the grave thing.
Seeing as how Kakashi mourns at Obito's grave everyday.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

also notice we haven not gotten a single good set of  zoom up when tobi is using his teleporting. i think there is one panel but one panel could simply be a mistake


----------



## Hexa (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> When Obito died, he and Kakashi were both 13 according to the databook.


The databook just gives Obito's age during the Gaiden.  Kakashi's age (and the age at which he was promoted to jounin) are assumed based on the idea that Obito and Kakashi are the same age.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> also notice we haven not gotten a single good set of  zoom up when tobi is using his teleporting. i think there is one panel but one panel could simply be a mistake



Yeah.
I've actually researched and haven't found once where Tobi used MS.
So, it's a possibility he doesn't even have it.



Hexa said:


> The databook just gives Obito's age during the Gaiden.  Kakashi's age (and the age at which he was promoted to jounin) are assumed based on Obito's age.



That's not what I'm saying.
Obito was 13 when he died.-Fact
Kakashi is 26 at start of part 1.-Fact.
Naruto is 12.-Fact.
26-12=14
Obito was born in January and was said to be the same age.
So, if Kakashi is 14 in September, Obito would have been 14 in January.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Ask a casual fan and not an extremist and they'll say it's bullshit. People want Tobi to be someone they care about and not some random guy they've never seen. If it's Kagami they'll immediately have to google it. Tobi being someone we know and someone connected to the main characters is far better than him being someone only connected to an old ass man everyone hates. What's the point of a sob story if no one cares about him? Kagami also would have no reason to have such a personal problem with Kakashi.
> 
> Why should Tobi be someone introduced so many chapters after him?



not a plothole... just your opinion on why it shouldnt be Kagami



Awesome said:


> People do know that it's impossible to have a theory regarding Tobi without "fanfiction" right?
> 
> Just thought I would clear that up.



no, because Obito fans *actually NEED to use* assumptions and fan fiction *to explain* the plotholes.... none of the other theories have to do that



Awesome said:


> There are a lot of plotholes, actually
> 
> 1 - The hair is nowhere near exact
> 2 - way too many assumptions, especially with the Kyuubi incident. The Uchiha were blamed for the incident. Why would they be blamed if they were helping on the front lines
> ...



lmao  none of those are plotholes... after all this time why cant you learn the definition of a plothole?



imsogettingbanned said:


> I told you already, I don't need any theory.
> 
> And also I don't want to prove who tobi is.
> 
> All I'm trying to do here is prove that tobi cannot be obito.







Mistshadow said:


> No, the point is the masked man wasn't controlling yagura during the WHOLE time the bloody mist occurred. most likely it began, and tobi just continued it. the fact that the academy practice of killing was STOPPED should imply this as Tobi wouldn't stop such a practice.



we have manga evidence showing Tobi controlling Yagura and the Bloody Mist in a Kisame flashback.... but let me clarify this for the neutrals

so just for the sake of your Obito theory, you are going to *assume* that  out of nowhere Tobi was *not* in control of Yagura and the Bloody Mist when a 9 year old Zabuza massacred his graduating class... *just because* it would clash with Obito also being 9 years old at the time?


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

I don't see why people use that "Obito couldn't have fought Minato" argument. It's so stupid.

Okay, so Obito had huge potential. He had the potential of super powerful Space-Time Ninjutsu, and you're telling me that being trained for 2 years by THE STRONGEST UCHIHA IN HISTORY wouldn't make him strong enough to barely fight Minato using just chains and teleporting?! Not to mention that Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto and that his stats were actually higher than Naruto's in the databook.


----------



## imsogettingbanned (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Cool so your thought basis on negating stuff can be made on assumptions but a thought basis to retaliate can NOT be made on assumptions. Love your logic, so flawless, oh teach me how to use deductive reasoning master.



Of course they can be made on assumptions.
Only problem is you tobito fans don't know what are you talking about.



Mistshadow said:


> I agree on nothing because we don't know. We can assume ONE of THREE situations here. What is most likely is up to you, but it IS one of these three. And the fact you don't see that means you don't realize it CAN be Obito, but it Can also be someone else. Now what is the most likely should be obvious though. You saying they are all unlikely is true, but we know it happened, so get the fuck over it.
> A-Obito activated MS and got away in the other dimension, where he went to after is unkown and how he met madara is unkown
> B-Zetsu being the land itself or Madara being as strong as he is stalked Obito during the war and needing someone to carry on his work saved him at the last moment to train and brainwash.
> C-Kagami Izuna or some other mystery identity was stalking Obito, somehow knew he had S/T jutsu in that 2 tomoe if turned into an MS. So followed him all through 2nd war hoping he would die and then stole his eye right when he was dying at the battle of kannabi bridge all unnoticed.
> What seems the most likely to you?



Il explain to you why you tobito fans sound so dumb.
Your A reason : He activated his MS by means still unknown to readers.
Why in the world is he even supposed to meet madara after surviving a close-death situation. I mean all those uchiha's who survived their deaths somehow supposed to meet madara uchiha?

Your B reason: You tobito fans yourselves stated that "why would anyone want to stalk a two tomoe eyed sharingan Uchiha who has haxxed S/T jutsu?"
So if zetsu or madara can stalk obito, so can any viable candidate who wants to control the world alongside madara.

Your C reason : If B reason is possible then so is this.


Mistshadow said:


> Why is someone interested in a 2 tomoe sharingan AT ALL. The answer is most likely NO ONE WAS. And Obito learned about it through activation itself and training afterwards. Every other story is unlikely for using Obito's eye unless it was Obito himself
> So one extreme of a long time can be done, but an extreme of a short time can't? That's like saying someone can walk a mile in 1 hour, but nobody can run a mile in 5 minutes.



If no one is interested, then how did he turn bad in the first place?!
How did he heal himself??
Why didn't he go to his village and friends and family??

You mad bro??


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I don't see why people use that "Obito couldn't have fought Minato" argument. It's so stupid.
> 
> Okay, so Obito had huge potential. He had the potential of super powerful Space-Time Ninjutsu, and you're telling me that being trained for 2 years by THE STRONGEST UCHIHA IN HISTORY wouldn't make him strong enough to barely fight Minato using just chains and teleporting?! Not to mention that Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto and that his stats were actually higher than Naruto's in the databook.



Oh god.
ONE year. ONEONEONEONEONEONEONEONEONEONEONEONEONE


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> not a plothole... just your opinion on why it shouldnt be Kagami


But you still haven't answered the plothole that I DID present.





> no, because Obito fans *actually NEED to use* assumptions and fan fiction *to explain* the plotholes.... none of the other theories have to do that


Kagami and Izuna do as well. Stop clouding your mind.



> lmao  none of those are plotholes... after all this time why cant you learn the definition of a plothole?


The Kagami personally knowing Kakashi and knowing where Obito's body was are plotholes.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

AGAIN-That's not what I'm saying.
Obito was 13 when he died.-Fact
Kakashi is 26 at start of part 1.-Fact.
Naruto is 12.-Fact.
26-12=14
Obito was born in January and was said to be the same age.
So, if Kakashi is 14 in September, Obito would have been 14 in January.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I don't see why people use that "Obito couldn't have fought Minato" argument. It's so stupid.
> 
> Okay, so Obito had huge potential. He had the potential of super powerful Space-Time Ninjutsu, and you're telling me that being trained for 2 years by THE STRONGEST UCHIHA IN HISTORY wouldn't make him strong enough to barely fight Minato using just chains and teleporting?! Not to mention that Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto and that his stats were actually higher than Naruto's in the databook.



It's *one* year. The argument isn't stupid. It's bad writing for an average ninja to become powerful enough to fight Minato while controlling Kurama.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Oh god.
> ONE year. ONEONEONEONEONEONEONEONEONEONEONEONEONE


Even if it was one year, whihc it wasn't, my point still stands that he would have been trained by the STRONGEST UCHIHA IN HISTORY. Also, he was an EXACT parallel to Naruto and had higher stats than Naruto in part 1 in the databook. Sasuke mastered Susano'o in a DAY. Naruto mastered Sage Mode in like a WEEK or something. Come the fuck on. You're in denial.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

People are still using the one year argument 

I can name at least 5 better arguments against Tobito.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Even if it was one year, whihc it wasn't, my point still stands that he would have been trained by the STRONGEST UCHIHA IN HISTORY. Also, he was an EXACT parallel to Naruto and had higher stats than Naruto in part 1 in the databook. Sasuke mastered Susano'o in a DAY. Naruto mastered Sage Mode in like a WEEK or something. Come the fuck on. You're in denial.



HOW?
Have you not finished high school?
Do you know how to do math?
IT IS ONE YEAR.

If Kakashi and Obito were the same age, Obito can't be 15 if Kakashi just turned 14.


Edit: I have better reasons than the one year.
I'm only trying to explain to this kid the math involved.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 20, 2012)

Awesome said:


> People are still using the one year argument
> 
> I can name at least 5 better arguments against Tobito.



No you can't. You make shit up all the time. I feel like you don't even read the manga.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> AGAIN-That's not what I'm saying.
> Obito was 13 when he died.-Fact
> Kakashi is 26 at start of part 1.-Fact.
> Naruto is 12.-Fact.
> ...


Were they ever stated to be the same age? No. For all we know, Kakashi could have been 12 during Gaiden.



			
				ceralux said:
			
		

> It's one year. The argument isn't stupid. It's bad writing for an average ninja to become powerful enough to fight Minato while controlling Kurama.


You don't read this manga, do you?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Yeah.
> I've actually researched and haven't found once where Tobi used MS.
> So, it's a possibility he doesn't even have it.


I meant he is using ms, youd on't get a zoom up on his face because if you SAW the MS design before last chapter, it would have been the same as Kakashi's and thus a confirmation of it being Obito's sharingan, which would have killed the reveal this chapter.



imsogettingbanned said:


> Of course they can be made on assumptions.
> Only problem is you tobito fans don't know what are you talking about.
> 
> Il explain to you why you tobito fans sound so dumb.
> ...



I promise you, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

For your counters I'm aware of those, and guess what, that would mean that Tobi doesn't exist now going by your logic. COOL. Yet we know Tobi DOES exist, which means one of those 3 happened. Now which was the most likely that's up to you to decide. I have to go with A though because that leaves no one seeing the future S/T in the base sharingan which would be near impossible to know.

As for those ??? you got, there are possible explanations. but if we were to know them NOW, it wouldn't be a mystery now would it. 
OHWAIT, you're the one who says he knows the answers and has evidence, nvm your cool.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> If Kakashi and Obito were the same age, Obito can't be 15 if Kakashi just turned 14.
> 
> 
> Edit: I have better reasons than the one year.
> I'm only trying to explain to this kid the math involved.


Never was it stated that they were the same age during Gaiden. God.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

5 Reasons Against Obito.

1.Obito would have been like 7 during the Bloody mist era.
2.Obito had strong resolve and wouldn't have just changed his mind in a year and became evil.
3.Why would Obito attack the village not knowing if Rin was still alive?
4.Why would Obito have the S/T without MS?
5.If he lived, why would he not go confront Kakashi face to face?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> It's been confirmed that Tobi controlled Yagura during the bloody mist era.
> Obito would have been 7 or 8 during that time.
> 
> Math proves Obito would have only been 14 during the fight between Tobi and Minato.
> ...



It's not confirmed.  Again the panel shown with Masked man/Kisame/ Yagura is 10 years from the Bloody Mist and does not prove that Tobi was the same person controlling Yagura during the Bloody Mist.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Were they ever stated to be the same age? No. For all we know, Kakashi could have been 12 during Gaiden.
> 
> You don't read this manga, do you?



You're probably a 15 year old, right?
You are so far in denial you wouldn't understand evidence if dragged you out of the crevice of Obito's back side.


My lord.
You're the only kid here who REFUSES to accept any other suggestion.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Were they ever stated to be the same age? No. For all we know, Kakashi could have been 12 during Gaiden.
> 
> You don't read this manga, do you?



What does that even mean? Coming from the guy who said Sasuke mastered Susanoo in a day. You're full of it.

When did Sasuke showcase the perfect Susanoo? Because last time I checked that's what a fully mastered Susanoo is.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> 5 Reasons Against Obito.
> 
> 1.Obito would have been like 7 during the Bloody mist era.
> 2.Obito had strong resolve and wouldn't have just changed his mind in a year and became evil.
> ...



Just to negate those reasons for completion sake showing they don't make or break anything
1. Not in charge whole bloody mist era
2. nagato example happened in a day, traumatic event of near death and damage cause people to change, brainwash by Madara's words and story(look at sasuke being talked to by Tobi)
3. How do you know he didn't know, maybe he did
4. It is an MS
5. Because he sees the bigger picture of the WORLD being the problem. His big face to face conversations have been aimed at Kakashi this entire fight though aside from the couple he's had with naruto.


----------



## MaskedMan88 (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Ask a casual fan and not an extremist and they'll say it's bullshit. People want Tobi to be someone they care about and not some random guy they've never seen. If it's Kagami they'll immediately have to google it. Tobi being someone we know and someone connected to the main characters is far better than him being someone only connected to an old ass man everyone hates. What's the point of a sob story if no one cares about him? Kagami also would have no reason to have such a personal problem with Kakashi.
> 
> Why should Tobi be someone introduced so many chapters after him?



Once again... I am not going back and forth with you... You are very biased and this is your OPINION...

I have talked to ALOT of casual readers that dont study the manga like we do on forums... they know who kagami is and some even think its him too without me explaining anything... by now there is alot of talk even for casual readers for who tobi is... everyone knows the possibilities... and whoever doesnt know who kagami is all it will take is another flashback of team tobirama and they will be like oh yea that guy and when its explained he will seem so much cooler.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

ceralux said:


> What does that even mean? Coming from the guy who said Sasuke mastered Susanoo in a day. You're full of it.
> 
> When did Sasuke showcase the perfect Susanoo? Because last time I checked that's what a fully mastered Susanoo is.



Sasuke did basically master Susanoo in one day.  Perfect Susanoo is just power escalation at it's best and likely Madara only.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Just to negate those reasons for completion sake showing they don't make or break anything
> 1. Not in charge whole bloody mist era
> 2. nagato example happened in a day, traumatic event of near death and damage cause people to change, brainwash by Madara's words and story(look at sasuke being talked to by Tobi)
> 3. How do you know he didn't know, maybe he did
> ...



Those are still only opinions and speculation though.
None of us really know yet.
We'll find out in the next couple of chapters.
We all need to be open to possibilities though.

If you are going to "negate" my reasons.
At least make sure yours hold more fact than mine do.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> 5 Reasons Against Obito.
> 
> 1.Obito would have been like 7 during the Bloody mist era.


Unless Madara started it.


> 2.Obito had strong resolve and wouldn't have just changed his mind in a year and became evil.


Nagato changed because his dog and Yahiko died.


> 3.Why would Obito attack the village not knowing if Rin was still alive?


Because he found out she was dead. -__-


> 4.Why would Obito have the S/T without MS?


He has MS.    -__-


> 5.If he lived, why would he not go confront Kakashi face to face?


-_____-



Fureikusu Kira said:


> You're probably a 15 year old, right?
> You are so far in denial you wouldn't understand evidence if dragged you out of the crevice of Obito's back side.
> 
> 
> ...


Is it confirmed that Obito and Kakashi were the same age during Gaiden? Np. So stop trying to use it to disprove everything.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

Everyone I know IRL who reads Naruto says "Who's that?" when I tell them about Kagami. They are very well aware of Izuna, and IRL most of them think that Tobi is actually Izuna. That seems to be the more popular theory among common fans.

In Japan, even on forums, Izuna and Kagami are way more popular than Obito.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Unless Madara started it.
> Nagato changed because his dog and Yahiko died.
> Because he found out she was dead. -__-
> He has MS.    -__-
> ...



Kid.
Shut up.
We are throwing out ideas and you're using dumb logic to try and deny them all.

NOTHING is confirmed.
It's all reasonable guesses, except yours, that is.


All of your "negations" are opinion.
None of them have proof, nor do mine.
So, don't pretend you know more.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 20, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Sasuke did basically master Susanoo in one day.  Perfect Susanoo is just power escalation at it's best and likely Madara only.



So when Sasuke showcases the Perfect Susanoo what's your excuse going to be?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Besides, the WHOLE Obito theory rests on Madara being alive when Obito was.
How do we even know that?
Madara was "supposedly" dead.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

ceralux said:


> So when Sasuke showcases the Perfect Susanoo what's your excuse going to be?



That its' EMS unless you think Itachi had EMS for 8 years and didn't master it.


----------



## Hexa (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Obito was born in January and was said to be the same age.


Where is Obito said to be the same age as Kakashi?

Obito was certainly 13 during the Gaiden and Kakashi was 14 during the Kyuubi invasion.  In order to determine how much time passed between the Kyuubi invasion and the Gaiden, we assume that Kakashi and Obito are the same age (which they seem to be).  But it's not written anywhere that they are, as far as I know.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Kid.
> Shut up.
> We are throwing out ideas and you're using dumb logic to try and deny them all.
> 
> ...


You gave what were possible problems and I gave possible answers. Problem.

Stop using unconfirmed points that Obito and Kakashi were the same age to try to disprove something.

And Nagato changing because his dog and Yahiko died are not opinions. They're facts.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Besides, the WHOLE Obito theory rests on Madara being alive when Obito was.
> How do we even know that?
> Madara was "supposedly" dead.



Everyone's who's supposed to be Tobi is supposedly dead.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> Besides, the WHOLE Obito theory rests on Madara being alive when Obito was.
> How do we even know that?
> Madara was "supposedly" dead.


Changing the subject, are we?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Those are still only opinions and speculation though.
> None of us really know yet.
> We'll find out in the next couple of chapters.
> We all need to be open to possibilities though.
> ...



I'm well aware of what the things I say. Just negating those reasons because those reasons aren't facts either.
Negate question with Possibility is all any of us can do until Kishi does so himself.

If we can come up with an answer, damn well gotta believe kishi can come up with an answer too


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You gave what were possible problems and I gave possible answers. Problem.
> 
> Stop using unconfirmed points to try to disprove something.
> 
> And Nagato changing because his dog and Yahiko died are not opinions. They're facts.



THAT'S ALL YOU'VE BEEN DOING.
Not once have you stated a fact that ACTUALLY SUPPORTS Obito's theory.
NOT ONCE.

Unless, in your mind they're facts.
They're not.

Where did it say Nagato changed in ONE DAY?

No, I'm not changing the subject.
I'm stating possibilities. Just as mistshadow said.
That's all we can do.
You keep trying to PROVE it's Obito.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

ceralux said:


> So when Sasuke showcases the Perfect Susanoo what's your excuse going to be?



Shodai's chakra 
perfect susanoo says hi


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> THAT'S ALL YOU'VE BEEN DOING.
> Not once have you stated a fact that ACTUALLY SUPPORTS Obito's theory.
> NOT ONCE.


I and many others have stated facts that support the Obito theory many times before you came on this thread.

I could state them again if you'd like. Cuz you're special.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I and many others have stated facts that support the Obito theory many times before you came on this thread.
> 
> I could state them again if you'd like. Cuz you're special.


[/QUOTE]

No.
There's not a single fact that it's Obito.
That would defeat the whole purpose.

There are strong implications it's Obito, as well as strong implications it's not.
Quit being one sided.

If you are going to deny EVERY single statement against Obito, then what's the point of even being here?


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> No, I'm not changing the subject.
> I'm stating possibilities. Just as mistshadow said.
> That's all we can do.
> You keep trying to PROVE it's Obito.


You're stating possibilities that have nothing to do with the subject we were talking about, though.

And I'm presenting strong evidence for it being Obito, not trying to PROVE IT, but show how likely it is, as it is the most likely possibility. It's not proven until the mask comes off.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> No.
> There's not a single fact that it's Obito.
> That would defeat the whole purpose.


I never said that there was a single fact that PROVES he's Obito, but FACTS that heavily  SUGGEST it.



> If you are going to deny EVERY single statement against Obito, then what's the point of even being here?


I'm not. I'm giving my rebuttals to those statements.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Not once have you stated a fact that ACTUALLY SUPPORTS Obito's theory.
> NOT ONCE.



Actually there are a lot of facts to support, to confirm not so much. I know I sure as hell have stated them countless times lately I've just been dealing with people who want to give reasons its impossible so Been countering those. They don't have anything to go against the supporting pieces of evidence because their response is to jump straight back to

"too much plotholes" or "kagami could have if he was obitos father"

the fact that  it is obito's eye is actually supporting the obito theory. granted there is another possibility, it is still support for obito.
Keep in mind many of these people who are saying impossible are the same people who were saying the eye was crushed and it is impossible to be obito's eye to me even 2 or 3 weeks ago. And I've been saying it was Obito's eye at the very least a few years ago


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You're stating possibilities that have nothing to do with the subject we were talking about, though.
> 
> And I'm presenting strong evidence for it being Obito, not trying to PROVE IT, but show how likely it is, as it is the most likely possibility. It's not proven until the mask comes off.



and I've been giving strong evidence it's not.
You're the only person that keeps denying the possibility of it not being Obito.

Of course Obito is the highest possibility.
Kishi wants to throw a twist just like every other manga writer.
It could be Obito, or it could be someone completely different.

You have to accept the fact that there will be reasons showing why it might not be Obito.


There's COUNTLESS facts supporting Obito, as well as facts that go against him.

I never said it was impossible for it to be Obito.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> and I've been giving strong evidence it's not.
> You're the only person that keeps denying the possibility of it not being Obito.
> 
> Of course Obito is the highest possibility.
> ...



A: Minato was Narutos father, lol. Also I'm aware it could be and couldn't be

B: They are reasons on MIGHT, but the way jacamo and imsogettingbanned say them is they are reasons on IMPOSSIBLE which is the point I and obitouchiha are making. They are NOT impossible points, but needed explanations that CAN be made by the author'

There are reasons on why it might not be every single character identity


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> and I've been giving strong evidence it's not.
> You're the only person that keeps denying the possibility of it not being Obito.


When did I deny that it couldn't be Obito. Quote, please. I'm not denying the possibilities. I'm giving possible explanations for them. If people just quit believing in their theory every time one piece of evidence showed up to question it, no one would have any theories, now would we?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> A: Minato was Narutos father, lol. Also I'm aware it could be and couldn't be
> 
> B: They are reasons on MIGHT, but the way jacamo and imsogettingbanned say them is they are reasons on IMPOSSIBLE which is the point I and obitouchiha are making. They are NOT impossible points, but needed explanations that CAN be made by the author'
> 
> There are reasons on why it might not be every single character identity



lol.

Yeah, I understand both sides here.
I'm not on a side.
I don't want to sit here and say OH I KNOW WHO IT DURRRR.

I only intend to state facts that go against that way others can state facts that support.

AS LONG AS THEY'RE FACTS.
Unlike ObitoUchiha who keeps getting mad anytime someone says anything contrary to his belief.
First he denied math.
Then he denied reason.

What will he deny next?


----------



## ceralux (Aug 20, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> That its' EMS unless you think Itachi had EMS for 8 years and didn't master it.



Itachi has nothing to do with the fact that Sasuke didn't master Susanoo in one day.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

ceralux said:


> Itachi has nothing to do with the fact that Sasuke didn't master Susanoo in one day.


Shodai's chakra  begs to differ with you also

he just ran out of the necessary amount of chakra, couldnt take the pain and became close to completely blind which shocked him


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> AS LONG AS THEY'RE FACTS.
> Unlike ObitoUchiha who keeps getting mad anytime someone says anything contrary to his belief.
> First he denied math.
> Then he denied reason.
> ...


So you're all about facts but you try to determine someone's age at a certain time based on something that's unconfirmed?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

ceralux said:


> Itachi has nothing to do with the fact that Sasuke didn't master Susanoo in one day.



Itachi does make a difference since he had MS for 8 years and a genius and likely mastered MS.  The known limits of MS Susanoo was reached by Sasuke in a day which match Itachi Susanoo level.  There are no higher limits shown of MS Susanoo nor are that any MS users left to disprove it either.  

As soon as Sasuke got EMS his Susanoo is on higher level tends to make the the point that Susanoo was mastered by Itachi and Sasuke at the MS level.


----------



## ceralux (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Shodai's chakra  begs to differ with you also
> 
> he just ran out of the necessary amount of chakra, couldnt take the pain and became close to completely blind which shocked him



How did he master Susanoo in one day when that Susanoo isn't even the pinnacle of it's power. Not to mention that Sasuke didn't do a single thing with that Susanoo. He didn't master shit. Nice try.

Edit: Again, Itachi has nothing to do with Sasuke himself mastering Susanoo. MS Sasuke and MS Itachi are different people but I guess that doesn't matter right?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

ceralux said:


> How did he master Susanoo in one day when that Susanoo isn't even the pinnacle of it's power. Not to mention that Sasuke didn't do a single thing with that Susanoo. He didn't master shit. Nice try.



His Susanoo was at the same level as Itachi's in the 3rd form that's been shown of MS Susanoo.  What people mean is that he reach the top limit of known potential not that he mastered it's use.

The point is dumb no matter what because who ever Tobi is the eye was mastered in a year if it's Kagami, Obito, Izuna or the Ramen guy.


----------



## supersubway (Aug 20, 2012)

whoever has obitos eye he could most likely have complete control of time much like itachi did with tcyhimototo (cant spell it but you get the the point)


----------



## Talis (Aug 20, 2012)

^Tsukuyomi.
Minato probably gave Obito the S/T potentials in his eyes since he was using the Hirashin in front of Obito a lot of times.


----------



## supersubway (Aug 20, 2012)

its not out of the qustion for someone to train for a few years and age in the time a single year passed


----------



## jacamo (Aug 20, 2012)

youre such a hypocrite ObitoUchiha111... you have said to my face COUNTLESS times that Obito is canon and that people who disagree or point to the plotholes are in denial.... or are you going to say you were just joking? hypocrite

that ship has sailed for guys like you and loool3, Raventhal, son_michael, Mistshadow, Nic, Tobitobi, Sutol, Awesome, TH4N4T0S, Alpha Reaver etc

there isnt an evidence that can PROVE Obito

but there is certainly PLENTY of evidence that can DISPROVE Obito... the plotholes people have gradually come up with, all supported by manga panels, which is what set this thread on fire in the first place


----------



## KCMNaruto (Aug 20, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> His Susanoo was at the same level as Itachi's in the 3rd form that's been shown of MS Susanoo.  What people mean is that he reach the top limit of known potential not that he mastered it's use.
> 
> The point is dumb no matter what because who ever Tobi is the eye was mastered in a year if it's Kagami, Obito, Izuna or the Ramen guy.



Kagami -yes
Obito -yes
Izuna -no, why?! Because he mastered MS long time ago, why wouldn't he repeat mastering with other eye.

As you can see I support Tobi is Izuna, but more and more posts I am reading I feel like Kishi can pull huge asspulls, for example:

1)Tobi used genjutsu on Kakashi and Gai, so Naruto broke Kakashi speaking : "You...", because Naruto didn't hear Kakashi - very unlikely
2)Tobi sharingan eye is connected Kakashi sharingan eye, because they are both Obito eyes. It could be hax like Tobi can see everything what Kakashi see. - it could disprove theory Tobi is Obito.
3)Sharingan eye posses all memory an knowledge of user, so Tobi know everyhting about sharingans, how to use them and what they can do.
- it could make all theory equally possible
- It could make Tobi is Obito more probably

for example since Sasuke got EMS<Itachi MS implanted>, he was talking all time, I can see what Itachi saw, maybe it is reason why Sasuke hate Konoha even more, because he saw how Itachi lived.

4) Tobi is Zetsu body filled darkness. I mean he can become whoever ,who's sharingan Tobi possesed until now.

-Theory Tobi is Kagami and Tobi is Obito become most probably

5) Kishi can make Tobi liar, I mean not all statments he said but everyhting he said about himself, while pretending to be someone. 
-All Theory have nothing to discuss about and Kishi: you mad?

6)Tobi is Madara in twisted way.

What I tried to show is Kishi can do whatever he wants. He is god of this manga, if he can he could troll everyone and think new character.
Kishi can laugh much while everyone is arguing because Tobi revelation can be based on:
- Who has the most biggest fanbase
- I will troll everyone, with confusing everyone.
- he can ask his child or someone other, and what someone say Kishi make Tobi to be him.

Nothing is confirmed, and everything people are arguing on forum can be one big ilussion used by Kishi on us. He will mislead everyone to same end, and best part is even if someone guess who is Tobi, Kishi can make twist to make everyone schocked.

Even if he is Kagami, Kishi can make story for him - asspul?, yes but he can
Even if he is Obito, Kishi can make story for him - asspul?!, little but yes
Even if he is Izuna, Kishi can make story for him - asspul?, yes or misleading  but he can 

EVERYONE CAN BE TOBI​*Most probably theories are: Obito, Izuna.*

so for bother in you discuss, but I wanted to see someone reaction when something which I wrote will be true, so Kishi will mindfuck some of us or all. 

Please continue discussion and calm down a little


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> youre such a hypocrite ObitoUchiha111... you have said to my face COUNTLESS times that Obito is canon and that people who disagree or point to the plotholes are in denial.... or are you going to say you were just joking? hypocrite


Quote, please.



> there isnt an evidence that can PROVE Obito


NO SHIT. But there's evidence that can show that it is very likely.



> but there is certainly PLENTY of evidence that can DISPROVE Obito... the plotholes people have gradually come up with, all supported by manga panels, which is what set this thread on fire in the first place


it can't DISPROVE it when there are possible explanations.

Also, you still have yet to respond to my post about that Kagami plothole.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 20, 2012)

Actually, all "Obito is Tobi" proofs support Obito is Tobi's body theories. None of them supports "Tobi is consciously Obito" theories.


----------



## supersubway (Aug 20, 2012)

at this point i dont think tobi is even a uchiha, i think kishi is just stinging us along into thinking that its gotta be 1 of 3 characters. i think hes going to straight pull it out his ass when its not a uchiha but a very famous character who has ties to kakashi, naruto, and a bunch of other people


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Actually, all "Obito is Tobi" proofs support Obito is Tobi's body theories. None of them supports "Tobi is consciously Obito" theories.



and obito's body supports obito consciously. unless you have an example of it not being his conscious too. 
im aware that stuff like orochimaru like body jump is possible. its slim though. but why take a damaged uchiha body that needs to be repaired with zetsu goo and has only 1 sharingan eye that is at the 2 tomoe.

which makes it more support for it being obito too.

it being obitos body in and of itself supports it being obito. because then the question becomes chances of it being someone random in obito's body or obito controlling his own.


----------



## warp drive (Aug 20, 2012)

Tobi is not Obito!
1)Tobi could have easily stole Obito's eyes.
2)What makes Kakshi certain to declare that Obito's eye are the only ones that can go through such dimension? Kakashi could not possibly research every single uchiha eyes to make such a bold statement!

I still believe Tobi is a half-madara figure.


----------



## KCMNaruto (Aug 20, 2012)

I am not hard fan of one theory. I like Tobi is Izuna theory and it can be true, but it can be obito. For real until now Tobi can be Izuna or Obito, both are equally possible. Why?

Because Tobi was pretending to be Madara eariler, but with moment we saw Edo madara Uchiha we exclude Madara from possibilities, so we can tell that he was pretending to be Izuna then.

-The most strongest evidence: Tobi clenched his clothes with his hand when he mentioned that Izuna died.
Why would Obito care?! beacuse it was act?, no he showed emotions so it means he is Izuna or someone close to Izuna.

Then some time later
Madara told that Izuna died.
When Tobi exchanged emotions while talking with Kakashi?, someof people begin to scream: "omg , he is Obito".

I won't deny Tobi being Obito theory but none can deny Tobi is Izuna as well, why?!

because Tobi now is pretending to be Obito, that why he behave like that.
I can say but it was act, Tobi is Izuna and he acted as Obito to confuse Kakashi.

Let's imagine Tobi kills Kakashi in next chapter or in 590 before his mask fall of. What people can say then?! I know it is unlikely but Kishi can do it.

I wanted to proved that Tobi can be Izuna as well as  Obito or someone other but with asspulls.

For real, none fits all what Tobi did do in manga panel. People can argue all time because whoever Tobi was pretending to be could be act explained by Kishi.

kagami is possible, but little only because we don't know anything about him, so Kishi would have to fill manga by many flashbacks to show Kagami character-unlikely


----------



## jacamo (Aug 20, 2012)

dont need quotes  youve been claiming Tobi = Obito since 597 came out

and what Kagami plothole? there are none


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

SasukeTheAlmighty said:


> Tobi is not Obito!
> 1)Tobi could have easily stole Obito's eyes.
> 2)What makes Kakshi certain to declare that Obito's eye are the only ones that can go through such dimension? Kakashi could not possibly research every single uchiha eyes to make such a bold statement!
> .



1. What is easy to you? To have been stalking Obito during the whole 3rd shinobi great world war, see him give away one eye and then take his eye DURING THE BATTLE OF KANNABI Bridge. All without anyone noticing. Mysterious figure in the shadows the whole time. All to get a 2 tomoe ordinary sharingan eye. Or knowing that it had S/T capabilities. Seems pretty convoluted and difficult to me than easy.

2. Because that's how Kishi wrote it and that's how Kishi decided to make the confirmation conversation go on Obito's eye.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 20, 2012)

Are we still screaming "plot holes!" like they mean anything?

Leaving aside the fact that potential explanations have been put forth numerous times, it is quite possible that Tobi being Obito could happen in spite of them, in which case they weren't really plot holes to begin with.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Are we still screaming "plot holes!" like they mean anything?
> , it is quite possible that Tobi being Obito could happen in spite of them, in which case they weren't really plot holes to begin with.



my point exactly lol


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *Spoiler*: _Check this out_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


**


----------



## jacamo (Aug 20, 2012)

Obito wasnt old enough to have done the things he would have needed to in order to be Tobi in mind and body... fundamental timeline plotholes


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

Obito, take what you posted and mix it with this



Awesome said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know why people say Obito wouldn't make a great FV. He really would.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Obito wasnt old enough to have done the things he would have needed to in order to be Tobi in mind and body... fundamental timeline plotholes



Yeah, guys come on, Obito obviously isn't Tobi, Jacamo opened my eyes. Tobi is the guy who fought Hashirama at the valley of the end and stole his power. Who was that again.


----------



## Moon Fang (Aug 20, 2012)

Can Tobi use Obitos body as a host ? Sure why not. Same mind ? Fuck no. There are so many conflicts with him being Tobi the way you guys want it and I know they have all been mentioned. If you say he was mindfucked or whatever then he's not Obitio at all. The drastic change in personality cannot be justified without changing who Obito is.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

The main reason I advocate Obito is because of the thematic relevance to the plot. No other villain would really match the core themes Kishi provided. He would have to make them after the reveal. With Obito, they are already there.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> CThe drastic change in personality cannot be justified without changing who Obito is.



Kishi can do whatever the fuck he wants in the manga, if you don't like the writing style and the fact that it HAS happened. People change. People change quickly. Get over it.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Actually, all "Obito is Tobi" proofs support Obito is Tobi's body theories. None of them supports "Tobi is consciously Obito" theories.


No, there are quite a few things to suggest that it is Obito himself, not just his body.



jacamo said:


> dont need quotes  youve been claiming Tobi = Obito since 597 came out


Bitch, please! I've been claiming it far longer than that!

I never said "ZOMFG CONFIRMED CANOOOON!!!!!!!"



> and what Kagami plothole? there are none


Must be nice to ignore anything that doesn't agree with you.


----------



## kzk (Aug 20, 2012)

Jay Kay said:


> I know there's a "general Tobi's identity thread" somewhere. I don't know if this just fits there and doesn't deserve a whole thread but...
> Sorry if I should've just put it there.
> 
> Anyway, I wonder if this possibility of his identity has ever been brought up or discussed?
> ...


It was possible until it was revealed he had Obito's eye. If he was just some random Sharingan user, it wouldn't be strictly necessary to link him and Kakashi together because of whose eyes they have. The fact that they chose to go this route is significant and means that Obito or not, this is someone we'd recognize.


----------



## Jay. (Aug 20, 2012)

Also why would Kisame be bro with Obito?


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Obito, take what you posted and mix it with this
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why people say Obito wouldn't make a great FV. He really would.


Exactly. He'd be an awesome FV. He represents the exact opposite of Naruto's beliefs.



Moon Fang said:


> Can Tobi use Obitos body as a host ? Sure why not. Same mind ? Fuck no. There are so many conflicts with him being Tobi the way you guys want it and I know they have all been mentioned. If you say he was mindfucked or whatever then he's not Obitio at all. The drastic change in personality cannot be justified without changing who Obito is.


That's bullshit and you know it. Even if he changed alot, Obito is still Obito. They're still the same person and character. Nagato changed too. Nagato is Nagato. Neji is Neji. Zabuza is Zabuza. Obito is Obito.



Awesome said:


> The main reason I advocate Obito is because of the thematic relevance to the plot. No other villain would really match the core themes Kishi provided. He would have to make them after the reveal. With Obito, they are already there.


This is exactly the main reason I support it too.


----------



## supersubway (Aug 20, 2012)

the timeline issue can be solved with his space-TIME technique. If itachi can master the tskimolo in a few limited tries then im sure obito can master it with the help of madara to slow time down in his own dimension to train a few years in the span of one


----------



## KAKASHI10 (Aug 20, 2012)

Jay Kay said:


> I know there's a "general Tobi's identity thread" somewhere. I don't know if this just fits there and doesn't deserve a whole thread but...
> Sorry if I should've just put it there.
> 
> Anyway, I wonder if this possibility of his identity has ever been brought up or discussed?
> ...



You just describe KABUTO


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

KCMNaruto said:


> Kagami -yes
> Obito -yes
> Izuna -no, why?! Because he mastered MS long time ago, why wouldn't he repeat mastering with other eye.



Unless he's also S/T sharingan he would have to master it.  Likelihood it's a Shinto god trio like Madara/Sasuke/Itachi.  

What exactly has to be mastered about S/T jutsu I don't even know.  You phase or teleport you just do it.  MS is designed to control the buuji.  ANBU is fodder to main characters.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

Jay. said:


> Also why would Kisame be bro with Obito?



He sold him the Moon's Eye Plan dream.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 20, 2012)

i dont know what plothole youre talking about so just tell me right now... but if you dont want me to answer you then fine just leave it




Raventhal said:


> It's not confirmed.  Again the panel shown with Masked man/Kisame/ Yagura is 10 years from the Bloody Mist and does not prove that Tobi was the same person controlling Yagura during the Bloody Mist.





Mistshadow said:


> Just to negate those reasons for completion sake showing they don't make or break anything
> 1. Not in charge whole bloody mist era



quoted for truth



			
				jacamo said:
			
		

> we have manga evidence showing Tobi controlling Yagura and the Bloody Mist in a Kisame flashback.... but let me clarify this for the neutrals
> 
> so just for the sake of your Obito theory, you are going to *assume* that out of nowhere Tobi was *not* in control of Yagura and the Bloody Mist when a 9 year old Zabuza massacred his graduating class... *just because* it would clash with Obito also being 9 years old at the time?



you see... creating fanfic just to explain a plothole


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i dont know what plothole youre talking about so just tell me right now... but if you dont want me to answer you then fine just leave it
> 
> quoted for truth
> 
> ...



idiots who don't know how to explore different roads of critical thinking go no where in life. just letting you know since you have a few years to learn it before you have to deal with it being a 13 year old and all probably.

You show me evidence that Tobi was controlling Yagura AT SOME POINT during the bloody mist. Yes.
 Does said evidence mean he was controlling Yagura from the BEGINNING of the bloody mist? no.
 we don't even know when it began.
 Could the 3rd mizukage have begun it? Yes.
 Could Yagura have begun it before being mind controlled? Yes. 
Could Yagura have begun it while mind controlled by Tobi from the beginning? Yes.
 Could Yagura have begun it while mind controlled by Obito from the beginning? Yes.
 Could Yagura have begun it while mind controlled by Madara and then passed onto Obito? YES

oh but I forgot, you have all the answers, you know the situation inside and out. you got panels of tobi controlling yagura 25 some years ago........

I'm not assuming shit, I'm offering possible outlets. You DONT KNOW SHIT SO STOP TALKING. If you did then this wouldn't be up for debate.

Seriously who let this guy on the forum. He is either a child who doesn't understand various words like possibility, explanation, plot hole, and evidence OR he is in fact as stubborn as a mule sitting at home doing nothing with his life except trying to say he is right.


----------



## Jay. (Aug 20, 2012)

Where did Obito and Kisame met before "Obito" joined Akatsuki, eh?


Fuck you all


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> i dont know what plothole youre talking about so just tell me right now... but if you dont want me to answer you then fine just leave it


I'm talking about this:





ObitoUchiha111 said:


> jacamo said:
> 
> 
> > ive supported my Obito plotholes with manga panels
> ...


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Jay. said:


> Also why would Kisame be bro with Obito?



why would kisame be bros with ANYONE, go away



Jay. said:


> Where did Obito and Kisame met before "Obito" joined Akatsuki, eh?
> 
> 
> Fuck you all



Dude you don't know anything, stop trolling


@obitouchiha he's going to say its because Kagami was Obitos father and thus knew what ran in the family. then go on to say its not a plothole because he can answer it with an assumption. and then say his assumption is legitimate because it fits with the timeline but obito assumptions are not legitimate because there are plot holes.

OMG I SOUNDED LIKE JACAMO SO WELL JUST THEN


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> and obito's body supports obito consciously. unless you have an example of it not being his conscious too.
> im aware that stuff like orochimaru like body jump is possible. its slim though. but why take a damaged uchiha body that needs to be repaired with zetsu goo and has only 1 sharingan eye that is at the 2 tomoe.
> 
> which makes it more support for it being obito too.
> ...



* If Tobi was Obito(his body and his conscious) and the mastermind of all bad things from the beginning, *why did he speak as if he was only an idiot Or why did Zetsu behave as if Tobi was idiot while they were alone and there were no witnesses?*


*Spoiler*: __ 








* *Also, until the moment he caught up to Deidara's big bomb, Tobi never used teleportation or abstraction jutsu against any opponent.
*
So, even this, proves that Tobi has started to be controlled by someone after Deidara's big bomb.


*Spoiler*: __ 










* *Next we have timeline issue*,

- Obito doesn't fit to many timeline holes since Nagato is older than him about 10-15 years... You just push story with really difficult assumptions to fit Obito's return[/QUOTE]


* Finally, the last one,

*Reasons behind the acts,*

- Why would Obito kills his own parents or why would he hate especially Uchiha clan?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm not interested in debating Tobi mind and body, That's for you to decide.
For me I have too many connections and panels between Tobi and Kakashi for it not to be Obito. But if you want to believe its someone who took his body go ahead, at least you know its possible the inverse is there that Obito just survived and took over from MAdara. 
The reveal would just lame in my opinion if omg its Kakashi's best friend, than go omg its Kakashi's best friends body but some other random guy we don't know has it.

And no I didnt read your post


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

Jay. said:


> Where did Obito and Kisame met before "Obito" joined Akatsuki, eh?
> 
> 
> Fuck you all



Tobi or a masked man met Kisame a short time before Kisame joined Akatsuki at age like 24 since he was partnered with 13 year old Itachi.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> * If Tobi was Obito(his body and his conscious) and the mastermind of all bad things from the beginning, *why did he speak as if he was only an idiot Or why did Zetsu behave as if Tobi was idiot while they were alone and there were no witnesses?*


To fool the readers. he acted like an idiot because it was an act. He acted the same way against Team 7+10 and then changed within one panel after hearing the results of the sasuke itachi fight IN FRONT of them.



Mugivara said:


> * *Also, until the moment he caught up to Deidara's big bomb, Tobi never used teleportation or abstraction jutsu against any opponent.
> *
> So, even this, proves that Tobi has started to be controlled by someone after Deidara's big bomb.


Shodai's chakra 
Shodai's chakra 
wanna try that comment again?


I'm not gonna deal with the timeline thing,I"ve dealt with it far enough, if you want to read my posts in the past or search, im sick of it


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I'm not interested in debating Tobi mind and body, That's for you to decide.
> For me I have too many connections and panels between Tobi and Kakashi for it not to be Obito. But if you want to believe its someone who took his body go ahead, at least you know its possible the inverse is there that Obito just survived and took over from MAdara.
> The reveal would just lame in my opinion if omg its Kakashi's best friend, than go omg its Kakashi's best friends body but some other random guy we don't know has it.
> 
> And no I didnt read your post



I haven't seen any manga based arguments on your post. 

And actually it really proves that you're obsessed with Tobi being Obito and that you may reject anything only because you don't want them.

Also, please read my message otherwise I would die...


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

It seems like whenever someone brings up a challenging post for jacamo, he just scurries on out of here and them comes back when the post is a few pages back and restates "Hurr durr, omg it's not Obito, too many plotholes!" It's the same exact cycle every fucking day. We should probably just start ignoring him. He holds the debates back.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

I really want someone to counterclaim both our posts and state why Obito would be worse as a villain than Kagami.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Awesome said:


> I really want someone to counterclaim both our posts and state why Obito would be worse as a villain than Kagami.



Because Kagami is cooler, duhhhhhh


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> I really want someone to counterclaim both our posts and state why Obito would be worse as a villain than Kagami.


I've heard some people claim that Kagami would "mirror" all the themes in the manga because Kishi pays real good attention to names and Kagami's name means "mirror".

How does that even add up?

So basically they just want the final villain to be a cheap rip off of all the themes in the manga and make a mockery out of what we've been reading for so long just because his name means "mirror".


----------



## Zeno (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I've heard some people claim that Kagami would "mirror" all the themes in the manga because Kishi pays real good attention to names and Kagami's name means "mirror".
> 
> How does that even add up?
> 
> So basically they just want the final villain to be a cheap rip off of all the themes in the manga and make a mockery out of what we've been reading for so long just because his name means "mirror".



If the villain turns out to have a sad childhood where everyone hated him I will flip my shit and kill Kishi.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> If the villain turns out to have a sad childhood where everyone hated him I will flip my shit and kill Kishi.


If you're talking about Obito then no, his backstory wouldn't be like that at all.

If you're talking about Kagami, his backstory will probably just be that people always thought he looked like someone else and it eventually drove him insane.

Izuna would probably bring more brother issues into the story. Sasuke's not even fighting Tobi right now and it would make more sense if Tobi is relevant to Naruto is some way.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 20, 2012)

*EVERYBODY SHUT UP AND READ THIS*

Alright, I've been meaning to post something like this for a while.

Let me toss in another reason why Tobi being Obito is the only theory that makes sense.



Recall when Itachi first discovered Tobi's existence.

Tobi had broken in to the Naka shrine to read the tablet housed there.

Now recall what is listed on the tablet.

-The secrets of the Mangekyou Sharingan(How to obtain it, what it allows you to do)
-The story of the Sage of the Six Paths
-The secrets of Madara Uchiha/his body

Now, let's review the list of candidates.

-Shisui, Fugaku, Kagami, and virtually any other Uchiha

*Tobi cannot be any of these people.*

Why?

Because Tobi had clearly not read the tablet, while all of these people had plenty of opportunity to do so, and probably did.

*Fugaku* was the leader of the clan, he had certainly read the tablet before, as he knew how to obtain the Mangekyo Sharingan.

*Shisui*, who actually obtained it, logically also had read the tablet

*Kagami*, being an adult Uchiha the only time we saw him, had probably also read the tablet, and would therefore have no reason to later break into the shrine to read it.

Now, moving on to the Elder/Younger son theories:

Both the *Elder Son* and the *Younger Son* of Rikudou Sennin would already know of Rikudou's legend, and since they are the ancestors of the Uchiha and Senju clans, respectively, they would both know how to obtain the Rinnegan.

So again, neither would have any need to read the tablet.

Finally, the *Izuna* and *Madara clone* theories:

We can completely rule out Tobi being a clone of Madara because at the time of his death, Madara would know about everything that was written on the tablet.

Izuna, since he obtained the Mangekyo, would know the requirements and likely knew that it allowed the user to control Bijuu. Because of the time he was from, he could have also known about the history of Rikudou Sennin, just like Madara. Finally, since Madara was his brother, he would have been privy to any and all secrets of his.

Lastly: *Obito*

Obito first awakened his Sharingan on the same mission where he "died". This means that even when he lived with the Uchiha, he could have never read much of the tablet. Additionally, since he was a young Uchiha who had not even awakened his Sharingan, it is dubious as to whether he even knew of the tablet's existence in the first place.

In conclusion, *Obito is the only possibility who both knew nothing about what was written on the tablet, and had no prior opportunity to read the tablet.*

Thus, *Obito is the only one who would have a motivation to break into the Naka shrine to read the tablet.*

QED: Tobi is Obito.


----------



## mrcheesymonky (Aug 20, 2012)

*may be long but worth it*

Okay, my theory is that obito got crushed and died but then zetsu found him with madara and pain. Madara told pain to revive him and told zetsu to mould half of his body with obito's (the damaged half), which is why zetsu is half white half (green?)  and zetsu therefore had half his body missing...so he used his spore jutsu thingy to replace his missing half...

Obito wakes up to madara, and at this point madara [who hates the uchiha, because they didnt agree with him and ended up driving him out of the village] brainwashes this young uchiha into despising the hidden leaf.   young uchihas are easy to convince,, just throw in a couple of facts ( or half -truth-half-lie) and it gets the young ones blood boiling with hatred . Also, madara knows pain, because when madara was revived he theorized that pain was the one who revived him. 

Next up, madara trains obito for years harnessing his full potential in hope to terrorize the hidden leaf and the uchihas as revenge for his exile. But then uchiha madara ageing real bad, so he needs to act fast before he dies. So hearing that the nine tails is gonna be extracted, madara quickly takes advantage of this opportunity but cant succeed in his mission of havoc because of yondaime minato so madara fails at killing thd hokage twice ( failed against 1st and 4th hokage)...he then entrusts his will and his mask that he deciddd to wear after his humiliation to obito before he dies. 

Now obito, carrying the burden of his teacher and hatred, has 2 missions:  killing uchihas and killing the hidden leaf.. And the death of madara also meant that pain and obito were the new leaders of akatsuki as they inherited it. So obito dedicates his life to fulfilling madaras ambitions. 

 and then itachi, who is a strong ninja, recieves a mission to kill the uchihas...what better opportunity for obito to jump in and help out? Obito tells itachi that he is madara, and tells itachi to join the akatsuki. Itachi, feeling guilty, decides to become a rogue ninja and joins. [IMPORTANT: TOBI AND ITACHI WORKED TOGETHER AND KNEW EACH OTHER! BECAUSE WHEN SASUKE AND TOBI FIRST MET, SASUKES AMATERASU TRIGGERED, and
TOBI SAID ITACHI WAS SMART, BUT I HAD A TRICK THAT HE DIDNT KNOW ABOUT....which means they must have been on similar grounds

tobi was the man behind the scenes, not known of until he recently "joined the akatsuki"...he was already a part of it, but only pain knew... then konoha starts wiping out akatsuki members quite quickly, which puts pain and tobi under pressure, forcing them to having to fight. Pain dies, which really shocks obito, leaving the akatsuki in obitos hands. 

(This theory explains how zetsu and tobi are close,)
(Also note that before sasuke vs danzou, tobi fights the two bodyguards and tobis arm gets removed. A WHITE goo oozes out instead of blood, which could be the zetsu half of the body)
(Furthermore, manga 597, kakashi and tobis sharingan warps into the same dimension so theh are connected. )
(When guy sensei asks tobis identity, tobi says you wouldnt remember because you are no good with faces. So it must be someone close to guy and kakashi. Which is likely to be tobi because: they are in the same year, so it would be the equivalent of, for example, rock lee remembering sasuke.)
(It is a mystery how kakashi unlocked his mangekyou. Obito probably unlocked it, which meant that kakshi indirectly unlocked it because they are both obitos eyes.)

Woo took me ages, but here it is. Opinions?
9


----------



## Zeno (Aug 20, 2012)

$10 says Tobi isn't an Uchiha.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

First Tsurugi, that was a fucking Fantastic post of deductive reasoning at its best. Well played

Final nail in the coffin for the identity until confirmation in a couple days


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Alright, I've been meaning to post something like this for a while.
> 
> Let me toss in another reason why Tobi being Obito is the only theory that makes sense.
> 
> ...



Pretty good post.  The problem is the author has made Tobi do so much unnecessary shit to confuse his identity I don't know if it means anything.


----------



## Zeno (Aug 20, 2012)

Well he's lying about being an Uchiha. I know that much.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Well he's lying about being an Uchiha. I know that much.



dude no one here is listening, haven't you realized that? we don't respond for a reasons so stop posting. give a reason why he is not an uchiha and maybe people will take you seriously


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> To fool the readers. he acted like an idiot because it was an act. He acted the same way against Team 7+10 and then changed within one panel after hearing the results of the sasuke itachi fight IN FRONT of them.
> 
> We're talking about a scene between Obito and *the one who fixed his body*(Zetsu) after the rock accident right? There were no witnesses... Just both of them, so Zetsu knew that tobi was Obito after all...
> 
> ...



You don't have an explanation for timeline thing. You only make an assumption by considering 15 year period as a short time for Madara.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Alright, I've been meaning to post something like this for a while.
> 
> Let me toss in another reason why Tobi being Obito is the only theory that makes sense.
> 
> ...


Boss post.

One of the best posts regarding Tobi being Obito that I've seen. +rep


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> You don't have an explanation for timeline thing. You only make an assumption by considering 15 year period as a short time for Madara.



an assumption is an explanation.........

Have you talked to old people? Like really old people, People who live pass 80 and 100. Ask them if they think a year is a long time, or even 5 years. Look how old Onoki is, and he was alive to meet madara and fight him in person. He's still alive now. Saroutobi knew the 1st hokage personally and lived until a couple years ago. Mito met Kushina as a child. Hashirama was alive when Tsunade was born. To say Madara was alive until around 16-18 years ago or so is not impossible.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

jacamo's probably just gonna say "Kagami was too busy grieving over Obito so he didn't look at the tablet!"


----------



## jacamo (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It seems like whenever someone brings up a challenging post for jacamo, he just scurries on out of here and them comes back when the post is a few pages back and restates "Hurr durr, omg it's not Obito, too many plotholes!" It's the same exact cycle every fucking day. We should probably just start ignoring him. He holds the debates back.



im sorry for having other things to do in my life 

i dont troll these boards like you do so be patient



Awesome said:


> I really want someone to counterclaim both our posts and state why Obito would be worse as a villain than Kagami.



thats so opinion based.... Tobi's resume is still the same regardless


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> im sorry for having other things to do in my life
> 
> i dont troll these boards like you do so be patient



That's okay, I already can predict your responses, So I did it for you


----------



## mrcheesymonky (Aug 20, 2012)

Also note that before sasuke vs danzou, tobi killed two of danzous bodyguards, but his arm was cut off un the process. From his arm blood didnt come out, it was goo....which could mean that half of tobis body is made from zetsu...which emphasises the theory of obito having a half zetsu body


----------



## Riperslo (Aug 20, 2012)

Why i believe Tobi isnt Obito

Tobi was controling 4th mizukage. we know that when he was controlled there was Village of the Bloody Mist. 

At age of 9 Zabuza graduated there. Zabuza died at age of 26 (original Naruto)
So this is 17years gap +2 years to Naruto Shippuden, 19years.

Kakashi Hatake is 30years old in Naruto Shippuden. Obito gave his eye to kakashi when they were 13years old, so Obito died at age of 13.  

IF TOBI was obito there would be an AGE problem with him and Mizukage, and Kakashi would had to been 32years atm AT least... simple math 

I'm aiming on Madara's brother or elder son of 6paths guy ^^


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

> EVERYBODY SHUT UP AND READ THIS
> Alright, I've been meaning to post something like this for a while.
> 
> Let me toss in another reason why Tobi being Obito is the only theory that makes sense.
> ...



The possible hole in that theory is that Tobi knows everything on that tablet, which requires a rinnegan.  This means either he was told what was on it by Madara, or Nagato.  In that case, why would he need to read it in the first place, because whoever told him about it could have told him everything.  I really can't see Nagato caring one bit about that tablet, as he had not only a country to run, but a band of s class criminals as well.  That leaves Madara.  If Madara was already dead by this time, he would have already had to have told Tobi everything that was on the tablet already, giving him no reason to read it.  If Madara was still alive, why didn't he tell Tobi about it before, instead of waiting for him to read it, then tell him the rest?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Riperslo said:


> Why i believe Tobi isnt Obito
> 
> Tobi was controling 4th mizukage. we know that when he was controlled there was Village of the Bloody Mist.
> 
> ...



possible hole in that, as I have said god knows how many times is that requires the assumption that yagura was controlled the whole time of the bloody mist. 
in return this is also the assumption that yagura was controlled the whole time of the bloody mist.

we just don't know


----------



## mrcheesymonky (Aug 20, 2012)

Also note that we do not knownhow kakashi unlocked a mangekyou sharingan. Thats still to be explained. Logically, the most possible theory is that he unlocked it indirectly when obito unlocked a mangekyou. So emphasising tobi= obito


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 20, 2012)

Riperslo said:


> Why i believe Tobi isnt Obito
> 
> Tobi was controling 4th mizukage. we know that when he was controlled there was Village of the Bloody Mist.
> 
> ...



The problem is the only panel we have of control happened not long  before the Kisame joined up with Itatchi.  This means that it happened damn near 10 years after the bloody mist ended.  We have no evidence when Yagura started being controlled nor how long Tobi himself was doing it.  Again that panel is not that old with Kisame/Yagaura/Masked man.


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## Mugivara (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> an assumption is an explanation.........
> 
> Have you talked to old people? Like really old people, People who live pass 80 and 100. Ask them if they think a year is a long time, or even 5 years. Look how old Onoki is, and he was alive to meet madara and fight him in person. He's still alive now. Saroutobi knew the 1st hokage personally and lived until a couple years ago. Mito met Kushina as a child. Hashirama was alive when Tsunade was born. To say Madara was alive until around 16-18 years ago or so is not impossible.



An assumption may be an explication unless you make it illogical.

You can do that, go ask anyone you want, for all the world, a period of 10-15 years is the quarter of the life span(even for Madara). So, 10-15 years are not a period that you can call "shortly".

I can't believe you people, how can you find this assumption logical and how can you defend it here... 

Yes 10-15 years are a short period and 30-40 years are just a little more...

Know what? I guess you're ignoring the things that you can't find logical explanations...



> We're talking about a scene between Obito and *the one who fixed his body*(Zetsu) after the rock accident right? There were no witnesses... Just both of them, so Zetsu knew that tobi was Obito after all...
> 
> Your examples are different, I don't use them as evidents as you can see.
> 
> So, really, how can Zetsu call his majesty as an idiot? Or else, is Obito an idiot?


----------



## jacamo (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> idiots who don't know how to explore different roads of critical thinking go no where in life. just letting you know since you have a few years to learn it before you have to deal with it being a 13 year old and all probably.
> 
> You show me evidence that Tobi was controlling Yagura AT SOME POINT during the bloody mist. Yes.
> Does said evidence mean he was controlling Yagura from the BEGINNING of the bloody mist? no.
> ...



 god do you have a compulsive insult disorder or something? and im supposed to be the 13 year old? just because i call you out? i mean, this isnt personal but you sound like you want it to be personal 

anyway, the logical way to think would be to assume Tobi was in control of Yagura and the Bloody Mist since the beginning, until proven otherwise, because we have nothing else to go on

but lolno, not you guys... just for the sake of Tobi = Obito you turn things upside down and say, until proven otherwise, that the guy who started the Bloody Mist was someone else who was later replaced by Obito  

even then you have to throw Madara into the equation for anything to make sense because Obito is the same age as Zabuza



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm talking about this:
> 
> So guys, if Tobi's not Obito... how would he have known that there was someone trapped under all those boulders with a two tomoe sharingan that had the capability of haxxed ass Space-Time Ninjutsu? Furthermore, the only way he COULD know that is if he was stalking Obito and Kakashi on their mission for no reason. You could say he was stalking them in order to get Obito's eyes, but why him? Why not take the eyes of another Uchiha? A stronger one? I mean, unless Tobi magically has the power to tell the potential of each sharingan he sees.
> 
> One more thing. Tobi got Obito's sharingan DURING the BATTLE of Kannabi Bridge. Which means that if Tobi's not Obito, then he 100% WAS stalking Obito and Kakashi on their mission, which makes NO sense. Don't say that it was AT Kannabi Bridge, because that's not where the whole boulder incident happened.



this is it? are you kidding me?  not even close to being a plothole

Tobi/Kagami wouldnt have to know about Obito being trapped, nor would he have to be stalking them, if he had Zetsu 

Tobi/Kagami wouldnt have to know anything about the hax Jikukan potential Obito had, he collects Sharingan eyes anyway


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Tobi/Kagami wouldnt have to know about Obito being trapped, nor would he have to be stalking them, if he had Zetsu



And why do you assume he'd have zetsu?



> Tobi/Kagami wouldnt have to know anything about the hax Jikukan potential Obito had, he collects Sharingan eyes anyway



But the eye is clearly at least at MS level, so why and how did he evolve that eye and only that eye?

And what happened to the eyes he already had?


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Okay, so Obito had huge potential. He had the potential of super powerful Space-Time Ninjutsu, and you're telling me that being trained for 2 years by THE STRONGEST UCHIHA IN HISTORY wouldn't make him strong enough to barely fight Minato using just chains and teleporting?! Not to mention that Obito was an exact parallel to Naruto and that his stats were actually higher than Naruto's in the databook.



Obito being trained by Madara is just your assumption. And DB stats are irrelevant.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 20, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> And why do you assume he'd have zetsu?



wtf? because Tobi/Kagami and Zetsu have always worked together, this isnt even an assumption



> But the eye is clearly at least at MS level, so why and how did he evolve that eye and only that eye?
> 
> And what happened to the eyes he already had?



those questions are irrelevant... i answered the initial question as to why its not a plothole for Tobi/Kagami to retrieve the eye


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

Actually, the eye is a plothole because you have to fill in your own assumption in order to make it work. That's the very definition of a plothole.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

jacamo said:


> im sorry for having other things to do in my life
> 
> i dont troll these boards like you do so be patient


If anyone here's a troll, it's you.



jacamo said:


> this is it? are you kidding me?  not even close to being a plothole
> 
> Tobi/Kagami wouldnt have to know about Obito being trapped, nor would he have to be stalking them, if he had Zetsu
> 
> Tobi/Kagami wouldnt have to know anything about the hax Jikukan potential Obito had, he collects Sharingan eyes anyway


So... um... how did he get it DURING the battle of Kannabi Bridge if he wasn't stalking them? Yeah, plothole.



HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Obito being trained by Madara is just your assumption.


Well, obviously.



> And DB stats are irrelevant.


Exactly my point.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 20, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> $10 says Tobi isn't an Uchiha.



No, Tobi *is* an Uchiha. In chapter 596, he uses a move called "Uchiha Kaenjin" which is sorta like a fire shield/barrier. Plus, he wears the shirt with the Uchiha symbol at the back of it. You don't wear that unless you're an Uchiha.



Awesome said:


> I don't know why people say Obito wouldn't make a great FV. He really would.



Tobi's not the FV, though.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 20, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> No, Tobi *is* an Uchiha. In chapter 596, he uses a move called "Uchiha Kaenjin" which is sorta like a fire shield/barrier. Plus, he wears the shirt with the Uchiha symbol at the back of it. You don't wear that unless you're an Uchiha.


Not that I don't agree with you, but that apparently isn't enough to convince some of the people here.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Well, obviously.



Then what if Obito *wasn't* trained by Madara? How would you explain how he got as strong as Minato in such a short period of time?



> Exactly my point.



How? You were using the DB to compare Obito's and Naruto's stats.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:
			
		

> *Tobi's not the FV, though.*


WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

But, even if he wasn't, we're saying Obito would make a great villain in general.


HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Then what if Obito *wasn't* trained by Madara? How would you explain how he got as strong as Minato in such a short period of time?


Well, if Tobi is Obito, I don't see why he *wouldn't* have been trained by Madara.


> How? You were using the DB to compare Obito's and Naruto's stats.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> How would you explain how he got *as strong as Minato* in such a short period of time?
> .



He wasnt. He had ONE jutsu, that made him extremely DIFFICULT to hit. That is all.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Not that I don't agree with you, but that apparently isn't enough to convince some of the people here.



As it shouldn't be.  Just because it's an Uchiha technique doesn't mean only Uchiha can use it.  It makes it more likely that he's an Uchiha for sure, but it's still not solid proof.

The shirt?  Really?  Is there some sort of special fabric that kills anyone who wears it that isn't of Uchiha blood?  He could be wearing that shirt simply to show that he's carrying the Uchiha's legacy.  Really, why would someone, who wants to separate himself from any identity at all, wear a shirt that screams "I'm an Uchiha!" if that were actually relevant to his identity?  Kind of counterproductive isn't it?


----------



## Moon Fang (Aug 20, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Then what if Obito *wasn't* trained by Madara? How would you explain how he got as strong as Minato in such a short period of time?



"pocket dimension" smh.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
> 
> But, even if he wasn't, we're saying Obito would make a great villain in general.



I don't understand why you laugh every time I say Tobi isn't the FV.


----------



## mrcheesymonky (Aug 20, 2012)

Its just skeptical people that insist that tobi is not obito. Why would they make a double episode of kakashis childhood including obito, if obito has no significance to the story?honestly!


----------



## SaiST (Aug 20, 2012)

mrcheesymonky said:


> Its just skeptical people that insist that tobi is not obito. Why would they make a double episode of kakashis childhood including obito, if obito has no significance to the story?honestly!


So, if Tobi doesn't turn out to be Obito, we would have to consider him insignificant?

The fact that Obito's the individual responsible for shaping some of Kakashi's current personality and beliefs(and by extension, Naruto's), and the original owner of the Doujutsu that made Kakashi famous already makes him kind of a big deal.

Kakashi's past, and the mystery behind his Sharingan used to be a really hot topic. That's why we got a double episode/six-chapter spin-off about it.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:
			
		

> I don't understand why you laugh every time I say Tobi isn't the FV.


Because.

He was called a harbinger of destruction.

He attacked Konoha with Kurama and killed Naruto's parents.

He took part in the Uchiha Massacre, which killed Sasuke's parents.

Naruto is the light and Tobi is the darkness, stated by Konan.

His chances of being FV rise even higher if he's Obito.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 20, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I don't understand why you laugh every time I say Tobi isn't the FV.



I dunno why he does. I agree with you 100%



However I only see him not being a FV if he is 100% obito because then he would get redeemed by Naruto and kakashi. Then either the real uchiha madara would be final villain or Sasuke will or w/e is associated with sauske's letter will.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Damn.
A lot went down since I was gone..


How about this.
50% of evidence points to Obito.
50% points to someone else.

Problem solved.
Now, back to ACTUAL FACTS.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> Its just skeptical people that insist that tobi is not obito. Why would they make a double episode of kakashis childhood including obito, if obito has no significance to the story?honestly!


It's because they think a random character who appeared in one panel is more relevant to the plot than someone who was an exact parallel to Naruto and was an Uchiha and helped shape Naruto's sensei.



			
				Kowakijkowasomething Kira said:
			
		

> Damn.
> A lot went down since I was gone..
> 
> 
> ...


You'd like that wouldn't you?



> Problem solved.
> Now, back to ACTUAL FACTS.


The FACTS have already been established. All that's left is to speculate.

Btw, check out First Tsurugi's post a few pages back if you want actual FACTS.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It's because they think a random character who appeared in one panel is more relevant to the plot than someone who was an exact parallel to Naruto and was an Uchiha and helped shape Naruto's sensei.



the argument they use is "it was all about kakashi! obito is filler"


----------



## jacamo (Aug 20, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Actually, the eye is a plothole because you have to fill in your own assumption in order to make it work. That's the very definition of a plothole.



what assumption? Tobi wouldnt need to know anything about the eyes potential if he collects Sharingans in the first place, and its a fact that he collects eyes



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> If anyone here's a troll, it's you.
> 
> So... um... how did he get it DURING the battle of Kannabi Bridge if he wasn't stalking them? Yeah, plothole.



because Zetsu doesnt have to stalk you to find you... he eats bodies


----------



## mrcheesymonky (Aug 20, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> As it shouldn't be.  Just because it's an Uchiha technique doesn't mean only Uchiha can use it.  It makes it more likely that he's an Uchiha for sure, but it's still not solid proof.



Lool, of course thats solid proof! Its like saying a non-jinchuuriki using taildd beast bomb!  Theres only one kakashi, unforunately, so a non uchiha with uchiha abilities is absurd


----------



## jacamo (Aug 20, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I don't understand why you laugh every time I say Tobi isn't the FV.



ive been saying Tobi is not FV for years


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Because.
> 
> He was called a harbinger of destruction.
> 
> ...



That's not enough convince to me. Almost no one on this forum thinks that Tobi is the FV. I don't even understand why people even think he can be.

And what do you mean his chances of being FV are higher if he's Obito?
He isn't the FV nor is he gonna be. The fight that is currently happening right now is Tobi's final fight. The fight where is face gets revealed and dies.

Orochimaru or Madara are going to be the FV.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You'd like that wouldn't you?
> 
> The FACTS have already been established. All that's left is to speculate.
> 
> Btw, check out First Tsurugi's post a few pages back if you want actual FACTS.



Too much work.

Although, I was thinking about this whole situation.
So, we know Tobi has Obito's eye.
If it's not Obito, who else would be interested?

I was looking around and have 3 possible explanations.
1. It's Kagami. If you look at the resemblance between him and Obito, it's uncanny. His age would make it possible for him to be Obito's father, giving him reason to be mad at Kakashi and want Obito's eye. Also, he was trained by Tobirama, or Tobi for short.- Just speculation.
2.Obito's body with the soul removed. Explaining why hes different.
3.Mindfuck. Character who's not even an Uchiha.


----------



## LelouchIsZero (Aug 20, 2012)

If Tobi is Obitio, why'd he state that hes just a shell of his former self?


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

LelouchIsZero said:


> If Tobi is Obitio, why'd he state that hes just a shell of his former self?



Seems like a troll, but I'll bite. I answered this a while back.



Awesome said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

son_michael said:


> the argument they use is "it was all about kakashi! obito is filler"


Which is complete bullshit, because he wasn't filler. in fact, Obito seemed like the main character in it.



jacamo said:


> because Zetsu doesnt have to stalk you to find you... he eats bodies


So, Zetsu got the eye instead of tobi, now?

And, how convenient is it that Zetsu just happened to be waltzing around during that exact mission.

And why would Tobi use bother using Obito's eye above any other, and waste his time upgrading it to third tomoe, and then MS, which would be impossible if he's not Obito since he hates everyone.

So, that's yet another plothole for Kagami.

What are we at now, 3?


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

> Btw, check out First Tsurugi's post a few pages back if you want actual FACTS.



Did you miss my rebuttal of that post?  Tobi knows *everything* on that tablet, including the rinnegan only stuff, and Tobi does not have the rinnegan.  This means that either Nagato or Madara read the tablet and then told him what they could see that he couldn't.  In that case, why would he need to read the thing in the first place?  Was Madara dead by that time?  He would have told him everything on the tablet already.  Was Madara alive?  If Tobi needed to know everything on that tablet, why hadn't he told him already instead of waiting for him to read the sharingan only portions of it?  Was it Nagato that read the tablet?  I doubt it.  But even if he did, the same logic applies here that applies to Madara.

Honestly, from what I can tell, First Tsurugi's post points more towards that Tobi being Madara than anything else, which in itself makes no sense, because he should have owned the fourth in that case.



> Lool, of course thats solid proof! Its like saying a non-jinchuuriki using taildd beast bomb! Theres only one kakashi, unforunately, so a non uchiha with uchiha abilities is absurd



Not solid proof.  If it isn't a sharingan specific technique, which we don't know for sure, then an Uchiha (i.e Madara) could have taught it to him.

Also, people have been saying that Tobi isn't the final villain, because Sasuke is being set up as the final villain.


----------



## mrcheesymonky (Aug 20, 2012)

LelouchIsZero said:


> If Tobi is Obitio, why'd he state that hes just a shell of his former self?



Why not? He is addressing the 5 kage, who is his enemies...he doesnt nees to say 100% truth


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

The shell comment was to sell Madara.
I wouldn't read too much into that...


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> That's not enough convince to me.


Then you don't understand basic storytelling.



> Almost no one on this forum thinks that Tobi is the FV.


You think I care?



> I don't even understand why people even think he can be.






> And what do you mean his chances of being FV are higher if he's Obito?
> He isn't the FV nor is he gonna be. The fight that is currently happening right now is Tobi's final fight. The fight where is face gets revealed and dies.


They're higher if he's Obito due to the parallels between Obito and Naruto, and because of the themes established in the manga.



> Orochimaru or Madara are going to be the FV.


Oro's too irrelevant. Madara hasn't had enough buildup.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> Too much work.


It's literally a page or 2 back.



> Although, I was thinking about this whole situation.
> So, we know Tobi has Obito's eye.
> If it's not Obito, who else would be interested
> 
> ...


How exactly does he look like Obito?



> 2.Obito's body with the soul removed. Explaining why hes different.


It wouldn't even be Obito, then. But who do you think could be inhabiting his body?



> 3.Mindfuck. Character who's not even an Uchiha.


Lol.



LelouchIsZero said:


> If Tobi is Obitio, why'd he state that hes just a shell of his former self?


Boulders fucked up his body. Zetsu goo fixed him up.


----------



## gloomygrim (Aug 20, 2012)

*tobi and his amazing arms*

K so if tobi  has one jutsu that is so amazing it just owns every other jutsu ever created.  AMAZING ARM REGENERATION JUTSU!!!!!!!!!!!! 

honestly how many arms must this guy lose.

first 



then again 



but wait!!! it didnt fall off this time!!



k my point is the first picture is after he fought minato,  so if tobi was obito wouldnt the other side of him be made of gob? see the pic. 



see now thats the side of obito that got crunched,  yet tobis body is fine on that side but the other side his arm falls off.   Yet after the konan fight his other arm is gone, but grown back and after he gets hit by naruto his arm is all limp but has not fallen off.  he is either all gob from the neck down or just his arms are made of gob.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Then you don't understand basic storytelling.
> 
> You think I care?
> 
> ...



compare a picture of Kagami to Obito.
Same hair, same eyes.

ehhh. 1 page back is too far.

I'm not too sure.
Tobi could just be a reanimation of Obito.
I don't know.

If it is Obito, it's not completely Obito.
He was mind fucked or possessed in some way.

Kagami, even being underdeveloped, still seems like a logical choice.
He can be explained. He's a blank slate. Obito has a lot of explaining.


I'm not leaning toward anyone more.
My top 3 are definitely Obito, Kagami, and The Elder Son.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

First off I don't think tobi is FV. I'll make that as clear as day.

Second I don't see what even gives a subtle hint of Tobi NOT being an Uchiha. Author clearly wants him to be considered one, or at the very LEAST a clone of one.

Thirdly to people saying "zomg no way obito could have mastered S/T jutsu in such a short time" that applies to every single identity character too now that I think about it. Regardless of who has the sharingan of Obito, they would have to awaken it to MS and master S/T between Kakashi Gaiden and Kyuubi Attack. IDK why you assume Kagami, Izuna, or god knows who is "inhabiting" the body would be capable of mastering the jutsu and turn around saying Obito can't despite his body being MADE and the MOST adapt at mastering the MS of his own eye.

Fourth : Mindfucked/brainwashed/Traumatized still make it Obito. Only way to make it not Obito is possessed, then the question is how far fetched is that and how was he possessed and why would he be possessed and who would be able to possess. Which sounds crazier and more illogical than "he survived"


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

> They're higher if he's obito due to the parallels between obito and Naruto, and because of the themes established in the manga.



Sasuke is going to be the FV, because he represents everything that's wrong with the shinobi world, and Naruto, representing change, needs to overcome him.  Only way I can see Tobi being the final villain, is if Sasuke doesn't die at the end.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Sasuke is going to be the FV, because he represents everything that's wrong with the shinobi world, and Naruto, representing change, needs to overcome him.  Only way I can see Tobi being the final villain, is if Sasuke doesn't die at the end.



Sasuke will probably help kill Tobi, and then fight Naruto for last battle.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Sasuke will probably help kill Tobi, and then fight Naruto for last battle.



Yeah, that's about what I'm expecting.  Sasuke is on a revenge quest against everyone involved in the Uchiha massacre.  Only reason he hasn't gone after Tobi yet is because he's been giving him powerups.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Yeah, that's about what I'm expecting.  Sasuke is on a revenge quest against everyone involved in the Uchiha massacre.  Only reason he hasn't gone after Tobi yet is because he's been giving him powerups.



Well, considering Orochimaru is telling Sasuke everything right now, I can bet he's bound to show up.

I can see it.
Last panel.
Susanoo VS. Kyuubi


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> compare a picture of Kagami to Obito.
> Same hair, same eyes.
> 
> ehhh. 1 page back is too far.
> ...


Here's the post:



First Tsurugi said:


> Alright, I've been meaning to post something like this for a while.
> 
> Let me toss in another reason why Tobi being Obito is the only theory that makes sense.
> 
> ...





darkprinc979 said:


> Did you miss my rebuttal of that post?  Tobi knows *everything* on that tablet, including the rinnegan only stuff, and Tobi does not have the rinnegan.  This means that either Nagato or Madara read the tablet and then told him what they could see that he couldn't.  In that case, why would he need to read the thing in the first place?  Was Madara dead by that time?  He would have told him everything on the tablet already.  Was Madara alive?  If Tobi needed to know everything on that tablet, why hadn't he told him already instead of waiting for him to read the sharingan only portions of it?  Was it Nagato that read the tablet?  I doubt it.  But even if he did, the same logic applies here that applies to Madara.


Well, obviously, things went differently from what you've just said if he ended up going to read the tablet anyway.



> Honestly, from what I can tell, First Tsurugi's post points more towards that Tobi being Madara than anything else, which in itself makes no sense, because he should have owned the fourth in that case.


Um, I don't think you understood the post, then.



darkprinc979 said:


> Sasuke is going to be the FV, because he represents everything that's wrong with the shinobi world, and Naruto, representing change, needs to overcome him.  Only way I can see Tobi being the final villain, is if Sasuke doesn't die at the end.


Cool story, bro.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> Sasuke will probably help kill Tobi, and then fight Naruto for last battle.


Well, whadduya know, another cool story.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

You know, now that I think of it, I wonder how it is that Tobi isn't blind by now.  If he has ms like so many seem to think, why hasn't there been any eye bleeding, or nuclear headaches like what Sasuke and Itachi got?  There are two scenarios I can think of to explain this.

1. Tobi does not need ms for his technique like Kakashi does.
2. Tobi has ems, which opens up a whole new can of worms regarding the izuna theory.

Edit: Although, it's also odd that Kakashi doesn't get these symptoms either.  Even more odd though considering how long Tobi has been using those techniques of his, assuming he's been the same person the entire time.



> Cool story, bro.



So, I suppose you're suggesting Sasuke and Orochimaru are going to camp neverland, and will never be heard from again?  Or that Sasuke, who has vowed to crush the entire leaf village for being allowed happiness because of Itachi's sacrifice, will somehow forget Tobi's admitted role in killing off the Uchiha clan?


----------



## mrcheesymonky (Aug 20, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Not solid proof.  If it isn't a sharingan specific technique, which we don't know for sure, then an Uchiha (i.e Madara) could have taught it to him.
> 
> Your comparison of bijuu dama to a shirt is comparing apples to oranges.  Only a bijuu or Jinchuuriki has been shown to be *capable* of creating that technique.  Are you saying that having an Uchiha symbol on the back of that shirt makes non-Uchiha *incapable* of wearing it?  That makes no logical sense.  Tobi could even be wearing that shirt because Madara taught him, for all we know.
> 
> Also, people have been saying that Tobi isn't the final villain, because Sasuke is being set up as the final villain.



Okay the shirt is understandable to some degree because its just fabric (but even then, seriously? No reason for tobi to deceive for any longer) but the technique, too? And going by your logic, a non tailed beast with enough chakra should be able to make a bijuu bomb? So kisame could possibly do bijuu bomb? I highly doubt that. 

Lets be realistic here, tobi is uchiha. Cant teach bloodline techniquss, simple as that.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> You know, now that I think of it, I wonder how it is that Tobi isn't blind by now.  If he has ms like so many seem to think, why hasn't there been any eye bleeding, or nuclear headaches like what Sasuke and Itachi got?  There are two scenarios I can think of to explain this.
> 
> 1. Tobi does not need ms for his technique like Kakashi does.
> 2. Tobi has ems, which opens up a whole new can of worms regarding the izuna theory.
> ...



Never shown using MS.
Might not use it.

Tobi at the very least is connected to Obito, though that doesn't prove he is Obito.



mrcheesymonky said:


> Okay the shirt is understandable to some degree because its just fabric (but even then, seriously? No reason for tobi to deceive for any longer) but the technique, too? And going by your logic, a non tailed beast with enough chakra should be able to make a bijuu bomb? So kisame could possibly do bijuu bomb? I highly doubt that.
> 
> Lets be realistic here, tobi is uchiha. Cant teach bloodline techniquss, simple as that.




*cough*Danzo*cough*


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> You know, now that I think of it, I wonder how it is that Tobi isn't blind by now.  If he has ms like so many seem to think, why hasn't there been any eye bleeding, or nuclear headaches like what Sasuke and Itachi got?  There are two scenarios I can think of to explain this.
> 
> 1. Tobi does not need ms for his technique like Kakashi does.
> 2. Tobi has ems, which opens up a whole new can of worms regarding the izuna theory.
> ...



Well KAkashi does get a little exhausted/wobbly after one use, but keep in mind he's not an uchiha using a uchiha chakra exhausting jutsu so that's natural. Tobi if he is Obito, would be more adapt at the chakra tax since his eye was made for, well, himself. 
And for why he is able to spam it so well, you know the answer kishi seems to give for everything that is highly chakra taxing, HASHIRAMA SENJU DNA. You have his stuff and you can spam a once in a decade technique once a day. So really not impossible to use that as an explanation. 
As for blindness, who knows, any number of reasons, maybe his MS is special, maybe hashirama prevents it, maybe he utilizes his left eye for sight, maybe he used some random uchiha's eye once until he achieved EMS, the possibilities are endless until we hear it. But one thing for sure is that it IS MS.


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

I think that if Kishi had ideas of Tobi being Obito he's changed his mind by now. People have been saying it since he came on the scene and it's just way too obvious. Plus I just don't get why Tobi would be some fodder like Obito.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> I think that if Kishi had ideas of Tobi being Obito he's changed his mind by now. People have been saying it since he came on the scene and it's just way too obvious. Plus I just don't get why Tobi would be some fodder like Obito.



so he must be a fodder like kagami, or a fodder like fugaku, or a fodder like zetsu. 
OhIseeWhatYouDidThere


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> so he must be a fodder like kagami, or a fodder like fugaku, or a fodder like zetsu.
> OhIseeWhatYouDidThere



In all fairness, Kagami wasn't fodder.
He's just bland and unexplained.

He was on Hiruzen and Danzo's team under the second.
Can't really be fodder...


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

> Lets be realistic here, tobi is uchiha. Cant teach bloodline techniquss, simple as that.



Just because it's an Uchiha technique, doesn't mean it's bloodline specific.  Best examples of this are the Inuzuka, Nara, Yamanaka and Akimichi clans.  They all use techniques that nobody else does, but they're not bloodline related.  That technique Tobi used is most likely a secret technique, which would be teachable by someone who knows it.



> No reason for tobi to deceive for any longer



He doesn't need to wear it for deceitful purposes.  He could just be wearing it to show that he was taught by an Uchiha, and thus carries on their legacy.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> In all fairness, Kagami wasn't fodder.
> He's just bland and unexplained.
> 
> He was on Hiruzen and Danzo's team under the second.
> Can't really be fodder...



Obito was on Minatos and Kakashi's team......

So tell me bland and unexplained: how do you define fodder ?


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

Yeah but Izuna is no fodder sooo...


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Obito was on Minatos and Kakashi's team......
> 
> So tell me bland and unexplained: how do you define fodder ?



Fodder=Weak.
Fodder=Average ninja

Obito was average.
Kagami wasn't.
nor was Izuna.

That doesn't have anything to do with who Tobi is, it's just the truth.


----------



## mrcheesymonky (Aug 20, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Just because it's an Uchiha technique, doesn't mean it's bloodline specific.  Best examples of this are the Inuzuka, Nara, Yamanaka and Akimichi clans.  They all use techniques that nobody else does, but they're not bloodline related.  That technique Tobi used is most likely a secret technique, which would be teachable by someone who knows it.
> 
> 
> 
> He doesn't need to wear it for deceitful purposes.  He could just be wearing it to show that he was taught by an Uchiha, and thus carries on their legacy.



I havent fully understood your point. If no one uses akamichi/yamanaka/Nara techniques, doesnt that prove my point? And it may not be bloodline specific butnit is clan specific...and also, the only reaaon danzou uses sharingan techniquesnis because he has benn physically implantes with DNA in the form of eyes. *cough*danzou no.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

mrcheesymonky said:


> I havent fully understood your point. If no one uses akamichi/yamanaka/Nara techniques, doesnt that prove my point? And it may not be bloodline specific butnit is clan specific...and also, the only reaaon danzou uses sharingan techniquesnis because he has benn physically implantes with DNA in the form of eyes. *cough*danzou no.



So has Tobi?
He's been implanted with Sharingan and Senju DNA.
Try again?


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

mrcheesymonky said:


> I havent fully understood your point. If no one uses akamichi/yamanaka/Nara techniques, doesnt that prove my point? And it may not be bloodline specific butnit is clan specific...and also, the only reaaon danzou uses sharingan techniquesnis because he has benn physically implantes with DNA in the form of eyes. *cough*danzou no.



Just because a technique is clan specific doesn't mean nobody else is capable of using it.  All that means is that they don't teach it to anyone outside of their clan.  In Madara's case, he feels nothing but bitter towards the Uchiha clan, and isn't going to give a rat's ass about secret techniques.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Fodder=Weak.
> Fodder=Average ninja
> 
> Obito was average.
> ...



obito was no average ninja

his sharingan was unlocked at 2 tomoe, his eyes are HAX as shit.


and kagami has ZERO credentials right now. He was on a team with danzo and hiruzen, that proves nothing. We have no clue how good he was.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Fodder=Weak.
> Fodder=Average ninja
> 
> Obito was average.
> ...



How do you know Kagami wasn't? You don't. Don't use labeling of team to say it is. Sakura could be on same team as Naruto and Sasuke and Kakashi if they got back together, she's LEAGUES weaker than any of them. Look at Minato's team under Jiraya, those other 2 must be pretty damn famous and powerful going by your logic. But they aren't, they are fodder. 
Neither Kakashi nor Obito were fodder. You have to come up with a better definition of weak and average because they fought enemies in long drawn battles and WON.

Izuna got killed on the battlefield, does that make him fodder? HE WASNT EVEN NAMED IN THE MANGA. The databook did that. That makes him fodder in my book


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

When I say Obito is fodder I mean that his character just plain sucks.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> How do you know Kagami wasn't? You don't. Don't use labeling of team to say it is. Sakura could be on same team as Naruto and Sasuke and Kakashi if they got back together, she's LEAGUES weaker than any of them. Look at Minato's team under Jiraya, those other 2 must be pretty damn famous and powerful going by your logic. But they aren't, they are fodder.
> Neither Kakashi nor Obito were fodder. You have to come up with a better definition of weak and average because they fought enemies in long drawn battles and WON.
> 
> Izuna got killed on the battlefield, does that make him fodder? HE WASNT EVEN NAMED IN THE MANGA. The databook did that. That makes him fodder in my book



Okay, explain how you say something that isn't true.
I make a rebuttal, and then you claim I'm using untrue reasoning?
You were just doing the same.
You called Kagami and the rest fodder based off of your opinion.
Then you immediately turned around and accused me of doing it?

Seriously, Obito was just as much fodder as Kagami.
All we know about Obito is that he had two tomoe.
Cool story. You just said earlier I can't use ONE fact to support my argument.

All we know for sure is that Tobi has Obito's eye.
Obito was a weak ninja in comparison to other ninjas.
Anything else regarding that specific matter is irrelevant.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> When I say Obito is fodder I mean that his character just plain sucks.



which is the worst way to debate ever. 
Naruto's character just plain sucks too. Exactly the same as Obito, so Naruto must be fodder. Where's naruto now?

Sasuke's character just plain sucks. All he does is rage rage hatred hatred. He's fodder right?

edit:


Fureikusu Kira said:


> Okay, explain how you say something that isn't true.
> I make a rebuttal, and then you claim I'm using untrue reasoning?
> You were just doing the same.
> You called Kagami and the rest fodder based off of your opinion.
> ...


No, I accused yellowsennin of doing it. You should pay attention to what people say before you see how I respond. He wanted to say someone can't be Tobi by being fodder. I used his same logic in saying Kagami is fodder too by your defintion. I don't think Obito is fodder. Main characters, no matter for how long, as long as they are related to the story, are not fodder imo. 
My POINT is Yellowsennin's logic of saying it cant be obito because obito is fodder is flawed as fuck. I mean look at his, he fell back on "because he sucks as a character"



As for weak: Someone who has potential for kamui and Tobi's S/T jutsu is undeniable when it comes for power. Keep that factor in, "fodder" does not have such potential. 

Link removed
Link removed
Someone who was beating a Jounin Kakashi, got beat by a 2 tomoe Obito. Explain to me how that is weak

You say weak in comparison to others. Look at how he fights here too working in SYNCH on same level as jounin Kakashi
Link removed
Link removed


----------



## son_michael (Aug 20, 2012)

We know a lot about obito...he had a whole gaiden for character development. kagami had 1 or 2 panels. In which we learned nothing about him.

and every time kakashi's sharingan impressed us...that's obito's power, not kakashi's.


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> which is the worst way to debate ever.
> Naruto's character just plain sucks too. Exactly the same as Obito, so Naruto must be fodder. Where's naruto now?
> 
> Sasuke's character just plain sucks. All he does is rage rage hatred hatred. He's fodder right?



Not really, Naruto and Sasuke have something that Obito will never have to his character : Depth.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> which is the worst way to debate ever.
> Naruto's character just plain sucks too. Exactly the same as Obito, so Naruto must be fodder. Where's naruto now?
> 
> Sasuke's character just plain sucks. All he does is rage rage hatred hatred. He's fodder right?
> ...



That's true then.
Obito isn't fodder.
Neither is Kagami or Izuna.

Obito is weaker by definition, but he did have an impact to the story.
I don't ever rule out characters unless it's downright stupid.
Like the Shisui theory.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

> HE WASNT EVEN NAMED IN THE MANGA. The databook did that. That makes him fodder in my book
> __________________



And this is exactly why Kagami isn't a reasonable candidate for Tobi.  What sense would it make to use a character who's name wasn't even mentioned in the story?



> We know a lot about obito...he had a whole gaiden for character development. kagami had 1 or 2 panels. In which we learned nothing about him.
> 
> and every time kakashi's sharingan impressed us...that's obito's power, not kakashi's.



Bs that wasn't Kakashi's power.  That eye didn't go from two tomoe to three tomoe to mangekyou on its own, and Obito sure as hell had nothing to do with it.  Obito's eye?  Yes, but Kakashi still had to earn most of that power for himself.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> That's true then.
> Obito isn't fodder.
> Neither is Kagami or Izuna.
> 
> ...



That was my point. read my edited post I added a few more details though. He was jounin level for that war. Either way its irrelevent to the identity of Tobi.



darkprinc979 said:


> And this is exactly why Kagami isn't a reasonable candidate for Tobi.  What sense would it make to use a character who's name wasn't even mentioned in the story?



I mean Izuna's name has never been in the manga but rather the databook. Kagami's name wasn't even in the databook or mentioned in the manga. It was just on a chapters cover opening page.



darkprinc979 said:


> Bs that wasn't Kakashi's power.  That eye didn't go from two tomoe to three tomoe to mangekyou on its own, and Obito sure as hell had nothing to do with it.  Obito's eye?  Yes, but Kakashi still had to earn most of that power for himself.



It WAS Obito's potential in his eyes however. The MS Jutsu WAS his potential. And holy shit have we seen those 2 S/T Jutsu be overpowered and powerful as fuck. Imagine them on an Uchiha body who was born with them and how he would be more suited for them. Well maybe we are seeing one of them on Obito as Tobi.



YellowSennin said:


> Not really, Naruto and Sasuke have something that Obito will never have to his character : Depth.



You are just so terribly bad. I can make an argument based on 'character sucks' and 'depth' to make it so nobody in this manga exists and no one in this manga is tobi.


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

Let me put it this way... Who is the most likely candidate of being Tobi...

[sp=Tag yo' shit] 

maybe




maybe



maybe



maybe

[/sp]

WTF?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Or Maybe

[sp=Tag yo' shit][/sp]
idk how anyone who gets SUCH a picture like that drawn to focus on just That ONE character can be considered fodder. 
But no, lots of fodder get such PAGES


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Well, in all fairness Obito was better suited for that fight.
He had sharingan allowing him to see an invisible person where as Kakashi couldn't.

I honestly think Obito was just SLIGHTLY above average.
I don't think he could take Kakashi 1-1 though.

Obito with two MS, would be overpowered.
It's not Obito's power that concerns me. 
As people have said, this manga strengthens people quickly.

What DOES concern me, is that Obito had such strong resolve as a team player and hero, it's hard to believe ANYTHING would shake him to the point of becoming evil.
He had already experienced fighting, and I don't think that one war would change him.
When he gave Kakashi his eye, he didn't seem to be pissed off.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Or Maybe
> 
> [sp][/sp]
> idk how anyone who gets SUCH a picture like that drawn to focus on just That ONE character can be considered fodder.
> But no, lots of fodder get such PAGES



wtfbbq!!!!111!!  His hair is different, no way in hell could he be Tobi!!!


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> What DOES concern me, is that Obito had such strong resolve as a team player and hero, it's hard to believe ANYTHING would shake him to the point of becoming evil.
> He had already experienced fighting, and I don't think that one war would change him.
> When he gave Kakashi his eye, he didn't seem to be pissed off.



Oh, you weren't reading the forum when I countered that. Its a piece of evidence I like to use to support Obito actually being Tobi in the form of foreshadowing. 
You agree that Obito's personality is VERY similar to Naruto's right? Especially with wanted to save friends no matter what.

Okay listen to Itachi's words:
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

"Do not shoulder everything on your own"
"Do not forget your friends" 
"One day you will become just like Madara (Tobi)" 
Basically pointing that Tobi was like Naruto and became the way he is today, and we all know how Tobi is today.
Said Madara because keep in mind that is who Itachi thought he was and it was before the edo Madara reveal

I personally see it as STRONG foreshadowing.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Oh, you weren't reading the forum when I countered that. Its a piece of evidence I like to use to support Obito actually being Tobi in the form of foreshadowing.
> You agree that Obito's personality is VERY similar to Naruto's right? Especially with wanted to save friends no matter what.
> 
> Okay listen to Itachi's words:
> ...



Now that's something to think about.
Finally bringing logic to the table.

The question is, would Obito become that way in a years time?

Also, what specifically set Obito off if it is him?
So many questions....


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

whats your point?


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> I think that if Kishi had ideas of Tobi being Obito he's changed his mind by now. People have been saying it since he came on the scene and it's just way too obvious. Plus I just don't get why Tobi would be some fodder like Obito.


No. Kishi has had Tobi's identity set from the start and he has never changed it.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> In all fairness, Kagami wasn't fodder.
> He's just bland and unexplained.


One panel character=fodder



YellowSennin said:


> Yeah but Izuna is no fodder sooo...


His name wasn't in the manga...



YellowSennin said:


> When I say Obito is fodder I mean that his character just plain sucks.


How does you personally not liking his character make him fodder? it doesn't.



YellowSennin said:


> Not really, Naruto and Sasuke have something that Obito will never have to his character : Depth.


Really?

Obito had A LOT of depth. He had 6 chapters dedicated to him. Saying Obito doesn't have depth is like saying Naruto doesn't have depth.



YellowSennin said:


> Let me put it this way... Who is the most likely candidate of being Tobi...
> 
> [sp]
> 
> ...


None of those except the last one can be Tobi.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 20, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Alright, I've been meaning to post something like this for a while.
> 
> Let me toss in another reason why Tobi being Obito is the only theory that makes sense.
> 
> ...


lol check this out.

when the village was attacked by a grown ass tobi, killed top ranked anbu with ease, figured out a top leaf secret(where kurama was sealed), summoned kurama, and then fought on par with minato itachi was like 5 years old and right? The attack happened 2 years after obito was *crushed *. Kakashi at this time was like 15 or 16 years old so that would make obito around the same age right? Tobi gave the rinnegan to nagato and was setting up akatsuki years before all of this even happened right. So lets lay out the events that had to go down for it to be obito *according to the manga.*

So in two years obito:

came back to life

got himself new uchiha eyes and a body

*Broke into the uchiha shrine undetected, read the stone and figured out the secret to gain M.S, CONTROL KURAMA AND THE SECRET FORBIDDEN EYE JUTSU'S.*

He somehow gained M.S and mastered a time space jutsu that rivaled minato's

Became an S ranked ninja

Out of nowhere he decides he wants to destroy the leaf and go against everything he stood for

Figured out super top secret leaf info on who kurama was sealed in

Knew kashina was pregnant and exactly when she was gonna give birth 

Sneaked into the leaf undetected and attacked the leaf with this new found knowledge and power

Fought on par with his teacher and acted like this was 1st time he met him

grew super saiyan 3 hair and somehow gained or got a hold of the rinnegan 

*went back in time to the 2nd ninja war and gave a 5 - 6 year old nagato his rinnegan. Then later on back in time he gave the idea to yahiko to start akatsuki.*

*Went forward in time, Killed the mizukage, took over the mist, made them practice old forgotten uchiha ways AKA the bloody mist era, (which started before the kakashi gaiden). met a teenaged kisame and showed him his face*

*Time traveled a few years into the future to meet up with a grown nagato who now runs the rain village with a mature rinnegan*

He takes nagato to the secret uchiha shrine sneaking past the uchiha undetected again. This is where he gained the knowledge of the juubi and the sage.  

This is when the young teenage itachi figured out he broke into the shrine with nagato

Now all of a sudden obito is angry at the uchiha and wants to wipe them out too

Takes out the uchiha clan and steals their eyes

Later on gains knowledge of pretty much the whole ninja world, it's jutsu's, and ninja history that goes back years before his time.



*For the others motivations to break into the shrine. Well you needed the rinnegan to read all of the tablet right? They simply just could have been waiting on nagato*


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Now that's something to think about.
> Finally bringing logic to the table.
> 
> The question is, would Obito become that way in a years time?
> ...



That's for Kishi to decide.
 If I had to go, I'd say with the damage traumatizing him. Seeing the damage. And hearing of the infinite tsukuyomi began believing that himself and himself alone would be able to create true peace and change the shinobi world. 
Similar to how Naruto and Nagato want to create true peace. 
It's in that personality nature to want peace it would seem. In Obito/Tobi's case however it would be him forgetting his friends and whatnot.
Nagato never really had friends to begin with, he only had Yahiko and Konan, but never forgot either of them.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Now that's something to think about.
> Finally bringing logic to the table.
> 
> The question is, would Obito become that way in a years time?
> ...



Yeah, I highly doubt Rin's death alone would be enough to change him that much.  Even Nagato required the death of his parents *and* the death of his best friend to warp him like that.



> No. Kishi has had Tobi's identity set from the start and he has never changed it.



And here's another, damn 2 in one post.



> None of those except the last one can be Tobi.



You know, I specifically remember seeing you say you wouldn't do that, and then when someone says you did asking for a quote, well here you are.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> Yeah, I highly doubt Rin's death alone would be enough to change him that much. Even Nagato required the death of his parents and the death of his best friend to warp him like that.


The fact that Kakashi completely broke his promise he made could help. Obito could also wish that he didn't save Kakashi so that he could have protected Rin on his own. He also wants to make his body complete again, probably from the boulders severely damaging it.

Also, the fact that war caused all of this, and the proper mindfuck by Madara should do the trick.

this also parallels Sakura's promise to Naruto.

Team Minato is like a failed Team 7.

Team 7 is like a Team Minato that has a chance at doing things right.


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

I still don't understand why Obito would want to engage a 4th World War.

Oh yeah, solid theory guys... Mofo killed my girl so now I will put together the ten tails.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No. Kishi has had Tobi's identity set from the start and he has never changed it.
> 
> One panel character=fodder
> 
> ...



You again?

Look closely....
again you are THE ONLY person here claiming people are wrong and saying it's absolutely Obito.

Right there you even said it CAN'T be anyone besides Obito.
Quit being so close minded.

We're trying to help theories, not deny everyone but your favorite.
Sheesh.
some kids....




darkprinc979 said:


> You know, I specifically remember seeing you say you wouldn't do that, and then when someone says you did asking for a quote, well here you are.



This.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> I still don't understand why Obito would want to engage a 4th World War.
> 
> Oh yeah, solid theory guys... Mofo killed my girl so now I will put together the ten tails.



Same could be said for every theory.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> I still don't understand why Obito would want to engage a 4th World War.
> 
> Oh yeah, solid theory guys... Mofo killed my girl so now I will put together the ten tails.


Exactly what theory do You support, then?



Fureikusu Kira said:


> You again?


Missed me?



> Look closely....
> again you are THE ONLY person here claiming people are wrong and saying it's absolutely Obito.


Quote, please.



> Right there you even said it CAN'T be anyone besides Obito.
> Quit being so close minded.


When did I say that? None of the candidates ON THAT LIST besides Obito make sense. I never said he couldn't be ANYONE besides Obito, now did I?



> We're trying to help theories, not deny everyone but your favorite.
> Sheesh.
> some kids....


I'm not denying every one but my favorite. I'm "denying" the ones that make no sense. If you need me to give reasons why they don't make sense then feel free to ask.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> whats your point?


Main character


(510)THIZZ said:


> lol check this out.


You just type one convoluted mess with a shit ton of mistakes or things that have irrelevance or apply to every possible character. this is going to take a while so I'll rebuttal it for you........



> when the village was attacked by a grown ass tobi, killed top ranked anbu with ease, figured out a top leaf secret(where kurama was sealed), summoned kurama, and then fought on par with minato itachi was like 5 years old and right? The attack happened 2 years after obito was *crushed *. Kakashi at this time was like 15 or 16 years old so that would make obito around the same age right? Tobi gave the rinnegan to nagato and was setting up akatsuki years before all of this even happened right. So lets lay out the events that had to go down for it to be obito *according to the manga.*



We don't know who gave Nagato the rinnegan and spurred yahiko to create akatsuki be it tobi or madara.




> So in two years obito:
> 
> came back to life
> 
> got himself new uchiha eyes and a body


A. Never died.
B. ONE new eye, and body is easy to repair with zetsu goo as we have seen Tobi replace damaged limbs multiple times without a worry in a matter of seconds.



> *Broke into the uchiha shrine undetected, read the stone and figured out the secret to gain M.S, CONTROL KURAMA AND THE SECRET FORBIDDEN EYE JUTSU'S.*


Figured out how to control Kurama before sneaking into shrine. It would seem he wanted to read it for himself for once, seeing as Obito is the only one who has not read it in his lifetime as he had no sharingan with which to be able to. I see U.S. Cellular Field or Wrigley Fild or Soldier Field ALL the time on tv. Does that mean I don't feel the need to go see it for myself? Hell no I want to see it and confirm their awesomeness for myself.




> He somehow gained M.S and mastered a time space jutsu that rivaled minato's



Mastering a SINGLE MS isn't impossible. It is more convenient than Minato's doesn't require complex seals and chakra control. He still lost miserably. MS are super instant upgrades. Sasuke went from getting raped by Bee in human form to lighting ablaze the full 8 tailed biju aflame with amaterasu out of the no blue with no experience or practice. then proceeded to promptly put out the fire which Itachi could not do to the same degree.



> Became an S ranked ninja


Tobi wasn't an S ranked ninja, people didn't know who he was or that he existed.



> Out of nowhere he decides he wants to destroy the leaf and go against everything he stood for


Thousands of reasons can be made for this so shutup.




> Figured out super top secret leaf info on who kurama was sealed in
> Knew kashina was pregnant and exactly when she was gonna give birth



So Kagami or Izuna could have figured this out just so easily? yeah ok. I'm sure the Uchiha's being missing has something to do with all this during the kyuubi attack. But either way point is god awefull bad and applies to everyone, not just obito.




> Sneaked into the leaf undetected and attacked the leaf with this new found knowledge and power
> 
> Fought on par with his teacher and acted like this was 1st time he met him



A. magic of being a former leaf shinobi.
B. Fought on par because he had ONE jutsu that made him INSANELY DIF to hit. Acting like 1st time he met him? probably because he didn't want to be known. Even now he is still going as 'nobody'



> grew super saiyan 3 hair and somehow gained or got a hold of the rinnegan


His hair has changed so fucking much, I count THREE times for the flashbacks we have seen it. From normal Tobi hair to Super long hair of bloody mist to Medium long hair of meeting Itachi. Holds to ANY identity so why so bad for obito.

[/QUOTE]


I'm not discussing time travel with you because I don't believe it exists in this manga, at least not yet.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Exactly what theory do You support, then?
> 
> Missed me?
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Look at your post 2 minutes ago.
You said every one on that list can't be Tobi.
That list contained EVERY candidate besides Kagami, whom you've already said couldn't be Tobi. So, yeah. You kind of did.

You are saying everyone BESIDES Obito makes no sense.
You are THE ONLY ONE doing that.

As I previously said, we are discussing reasons to support Obito as well as bringing up reasons against it seeing which make more sense.
If you can't stop fan girling for two seconds, you might as well leave.


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I'm not discussing time travel with you because I don't believe it exists in this manga, at least not yet.



All disputes aside, pretty much most of Uchiha eye techniques seem to be linked with time-space theories.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Quote, please.
> 
> When did I say that? None of the candidates ON THAT LIST besides Obito make sense. I never said he couldn't be ANYONE besides Obito, now did I?




I'm curious, but do you type your posts blindfolded?  Do you also not read certain posts after yours?  You've never said it couldn't be anyone but Obito?  When you say it can't be that candidate to every candidate but yours, you're saying that by default.  So, who do you support as a possibility besides Obito?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> All disputes aside, pretty much most of Uchiha eye techniques seem to be linked with time-space theories.



I'm not sure what time-space theories you are talking about. 

If I had to say most were genjutsu techniques
tsukuyomi, izanagi, izanami, totsuki sword, 

I don't see how Koto, Amaterasu, Susanoo, Kagutsuchi, Yata Mirror, Totsuki Sword, Izanami, Genjutsu Reflect, Meteorite Techniques, Izanagi, are linked with S/T

Tsukuyomi I can only say possibly but thats in a genjutsu mode.

Kamui and S/T MIgration go without saying being labeled S/T from Obito eyes

Izanagi is more of a Rikudou Rinnegan tech than anything else. But I guess you can consider it a Space technique canceling out the death.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I'm not sure what time-space theories you are talking about.
> 
> If I had to say most were genjutsu techniques
> tsukuyomi, izanagi, izanami, totsuki sword,
> ...



I'm pretty sure Izanagi was explicitly stated to be a genjutsu, thus not space/time.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> I'm pretty sure Izanagi was explicitly stated to be a genjutsu, thus not space/time.



I know, a genjutsu cast on yourself. I was just anticipating what he would say about making an illusion into reality is manipulating space.


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I'm not sure what time-space theories you are talking about.
> 
> If I had to say most were genjutsu techniques
> tsukuyomi, izanagi, izanami, totsuki sword,
> ...



Clearly I don't know as much as you about it, so most of what you just said went over my head. The techniques which I meant were Inzagi, Inzami, Kamui, and the one which allows them to predict movements. Also, though I wouldn't know exactly how, Meteorite Techniques may be explained by space-time manipulation in some way.


----------



## Fissiksman (Aug 20, 2012)

So i guess we are suppose to believe that Obito "Naruto" Uchiha suddenly became evil in a span of a couple of years? Where in the heck did this dramatic change in personality come from lol...way to ruin the heroic sacrifice of a pretty cool character.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> Clearly I don't know as much as you about it, so most of what you just said went over my head. The techniques which I meant were Inzagi, Inzami, Kamui, and the one which allows them to predict movements. Also, though I wouldn't know exactly how, Meteorite Techniques may be explained by space-time manipulation in some way.



You mean that thing Madara did?  That was a rinnegan tech.  Probably something similar to chibaku tensei, though I wouldn't rule out space/time either I suppose.

Also, I love how quiet Obito's gotten all of a sudden.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> Clearly I don't know as much as you about it, so most of what you just said went over my head.  so most of what you just said went over my head. The techniques which I meant were Inzagi, Inzami, Kamui, and the one which allows them to predict movements. Also, though I wouldn't know exactly how, *Also, though I wouldn't know exactly how, Meteorite Techniques may be explained by space-time manipulation in some way.*



Meteorite technique is a supped up version of bansho tensei. Think about when Pein put all his energy in one body and did chou shinra tensei. Then imagine that being what Madara did while amping it up with his double susanoo doing handseals also for enhancement. Then imagine him pulling 2 meteorites from space
Nagato did something similar Link removed
Imagine Chou Bansho Tensei, Chou Shinran Tensei, Shinra Tensei being 3 sides of a triangle

As for Izanagi and Izanami, I would more put those as Rikudou Rinnegan realm as they seem to try mimicing his power creation of all things. And that is all. Both are classified as genjutsu. Izanagi genjutsu's yourself, Izanami punishes another and puts them in a loop. Not so much S/T.
Izanagi would be close to manipulating space, but not to the degree of Minato's Hiraishin, Kakashi's Kamui, and Obitos S/T Intang/Teleport


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Look at your post 2 minutes ago.
> You said every one on that list can't be Tobi.
> That list contained EVERY candidate besides Kagami, whom you've already said couldn't be Tobi. So, yeah. You kind of did.
> 
> ...





darkprinc979 said:


> I'm curious, but do you type your posts blindfolded?  Do you also not read certain posts after yours?  You've never said it couldn't be anyone but Obito?  When you say it can't be that candidate to every candidate but yours, you're saying that by default.  So, who do you support as a possibility besides Obito?





Ya know, to be perfectly honest, I *have* been very arrogant about my theory the past few days. So I'll go over the list of candidates again and see who can believably be Tobi:

1. *Obito*  Very likely. This is the most plausible one.

2. *Shisui*   -_______-

3. *Danzo*   -________________________-

4. *Madara*     -___________________________________-

5. *Madara clone*                                                                                        -______________________________________________________________-

6. *Izuna* Plausible for the most part. Except Madara knows who Tobi is and said izuna was dead. Also, I find it extremely hard to believe that Izuna could have such personal issues with Kakashi and be able to just randomly be stalking Kakashi and Obito on their mission to destroy Kannabi Bridge.

7. *Kagami* Well, he seems to irrelevant, but if we're just arguing on established manga facts and not writing style and themes then there really isn't nothing to specifically rule him out.

8. *Setsuna* Well, I won't say it's impossible. Well, if we're to go by straight facts, that is. If we take out our knowledge of storytelling, suspense, and good writing, Setsuna could fit, as there are certain things hinting at him being Tobi. But, I highly doubt it as their eyeshapes seem to be different.

9. *Fugaku* Different eyeshape, no motive, to young, couldn't have been controlling Yagura for so long without anyone noticing, couldn't have grown his hair so long in such a short amount of time.


Now, keep in mind this is me posting WITHOUT thinking of Kishi's established themes in the story, about good writing, and about suspense.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Ya know, to be perfectly honest, I *have* been very arrogant about my theory the past few days. So I'll go over the list of candidates again and see who can believably be Tobi:
> 
> 1. *Obito*  Very likely. This is the most plausible one.
> 
> ...



At least this time you acknowledged that there are other candidates.
That's all we have been saying.

We haven't once said it wasn't Obito.
We just stated contradicting facts.
A good theory will have to be tested by a few of those.

The only real 3 people I think have a chance as Tobi.
Obito, Kagami, Izuna.
In that order.

1.Obito, same jutsu. Connection to Kakashi
2.Kagami, fits timeline. Unknown background. 
3.Izuna, plausible, but unlikely with 597 in mind.

As of 597, Obito and Kagami look the best.


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Meteorite technique is a supped up version of bansho tensei. Think about when Pein put all his energy in one body and did chou shinra tensei. Then imagine that being what Madara did while amping it up with his double susanoo doing handseals also for enhancement. Then imagine him pulling 2 meteorites from space
> Nagato did something similar Link removed
> Imagine Chou Bansho Tensei, Chou Shinran Tensei, Shinra Tensei being 3 sides of a triangle
> 
> ...



Fair enough, thanks for clearing that up for me. Back to what I was trying to get at though: certainly the last three you stated would give me reason to believe that time travel wouldn't be too far-fetched in this manga. Also the Raikage's secretary did a transportation technique with the Jar that sealed the Ginkaku and Kinkaku.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Ya know, to be perfectly honest, I *have* been very arrogant about my theory the past few days. So I'll go over the list of candidates again and see who can believably be Tobi:
> 
> 1. *Obito*  Very likely. This is the most plausible one.
> 
> ...



Now see, that wasn't so hard now was it? lol.  At any rate, nobody can deny that the majority of the evidence points to Obito, and that most likely it will end up being Obito.  That said, what's the point of this thread other than to come up with other ideas and see how well they fit?  What fun would that be?  Hmm...I do have my own candidate that I haven't seen mentioned here, I didn't want to mention him the other day but I've been debating it.  Not sure it's even worth it as much as it's looking like it's going to be Obito.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> At least this time you acknowledged that there are other candidates.
> That's all we have been saying.
> 
> We haven't once said it wasn't Obito.
> ...


I just don't see why Kagami has such issues with Kakashi. Only Obito seems to fit with hat in mind. But then again, you could say he was Obito's father and was pissed because of Obito's death, but Kishi's better than that, and I highly doubt it.

Now, I very highly doubt that he is a random one paneled character, but if he was, I think Setsuna would be the more plausible option. I mean, he tried to go against the Second Hokage, his name means "moment" or "instant" like Tobi's S/T, he seems to want to follow Madara, and could have searched for him and became his partner or something, lol. It could fit in with the whole No One statement too. Maybe no one knew about him so that's why he used Madara's name.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Now see, that wasn't so hard now was it? lol.  At any rate, nobody can deny that the majority of the evidence points to Obito, and that most likely it will end up being Obito.  That said, what's the point of this thread other than to come up with other ideas and see how well they fit?  What fun would that be?



Exactly.
That's what I've been doing since I got here.

I've just been testing out theories.
Most likely it will be Obito, but what's the point if we all just lay back and say, "mmmmm. yup. it's obito."

Obito really is the only important character to have not been shown grown up. Seriously, look at everyone else. 
If Kakashi and Obito were so important, why would they leave Obito alone at young? 

That being said, that doesn't confirm anything.
There are still a lot of contradictions to be settled and explanations to be given.

Edit:





ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I just don't see why Kagami has such issues with Kakashi. Only Obito seems to fit with hat in mind. But then again, you could say he was Obito's father and was pissed because of Obito's death, but Kishi's better than that, and I highly doubt it.
> 
> Now, I very highly doubt that he is a random one paneled character, but if he was, I think Setsuna would be the more plausible option. I mean, he tried to go against the Second Hokage, his name means "moment" or "instant" like Tobi's S/T, he seems to want to follow Madara, and could have searched for him and became his partner or something, lol. It could fit in with the whole No One statement too. Maybe no one knew about him so that's why he used Madara's name.



Isn't that what everybody says about Kagami too though?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> Fair enough, thanks for clearing that up for me. Back to what I was trying to get at though: certainly the last three you stated would give me reason to believe that time travel wouldn't be too far-fetched in this manga. Also the Raikage's secretary did a transportation technique with the Jar that sealed the Ginkaku and Kinkaku.



Thing is nothing has been done to manipulate the traveling forward and behind time. Certainly if such a thing was possible the Rikudou Sennin would have a presence in this time period too with his Rinnegan and Juubi power. But he didn't. The most we know that he did was creation of all things for making the 9 bijuu. He also had the potential for infinite tsukuyomi, but that was against his beliefs. 
So for the sake of this manga, Space/Time Jutsu's do not allow manipulation of TIME itself, but moving from one spot (place) to another spot (place) without any TIME (Time) passing. 
Which is why I don't really consider Izanagi a S/T jutsu since it is more a power of combining Yin and Yang for Creation.

Honestly I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say with this jutsu's, point is Nothing has shown traveling through time itself alone. And when you throw time travel at this point in the series, it would become messy.

I don't really consider mabuis heavenly transportation technique a space time jutsu. Because it seems to make it more into a bolt of lightning to travel at light/lightning speed, but not instantaneous speed

This is how narutopedia uses the term to define it, which I think really works best
Space–Time Ninjutsu (時空間忍術, Jikūkan Ninjutsu; Literally meaning "Time–Space Ninja Techniques")[1] are techniques that allow the users to manipulate the space–time continuum. By manipulating a specific point of space, the user can warp anything targeted into a dimensional void and teleport it to another location instantaneously. Minato Namikaze, Tobi, and Tobirama Senju are all noted as skilled users of space–time ninjutsu


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

One big hole I can think of for Kagami though, is that he probably was very well known, so if he went rogue, shouldn't he have been labeled as a Missing-Nin or something? You'd think he would have been brought up or been suspected to be Tobi, especially by the Elders. Did he fake his death?


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

I'd like to point out also that even though Kagami is a one paneled character it doesn't necessarily make him irrelevant. Despite the fact that they were Hokages, the first and second were just faces on a giant cliff until Orochimaru ressurected them.



Mistshadow said:


> Honestly I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say with this jutsu's, point is Nothing has shown traveling through time itself alone. And when you throw time travel at this point in the series, it would become messy.
> 
> I don't really consider mabuis heavenly transportation technique a space time jutsu. Because it seems to make it more into a bolt of lightning to travel at light/lightning speed, but not instantaneous speed
> 
> ...



I agree that Time travel would definitely become messy, for that reason perhaps it's best to leave it out. The reason I say it's not so far-fetched, however, is because space, dimensions and time all seem to go hand in hand in the eyes of science.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ALSO.
If you read in between the lines of 597, it does point to Obito.
"Where, you say?" Why would Tobi reiterate 'where' instead of just answering?
Unless he's implying he didn't* find* it, but he *awakened* it.

Also, "where you became known as *HERO* of the sharingan".
Why would he say that specifically?
Maybe Obito unlocked his MS and went to find Kakashi but saw that Kakashi was fighting with the sharingan better than what Obito was.
Maybe he got jealous or pissed or something. 
Maybe he felt like Kakashi took the eye for granted...
maybe obito wanted to be the hero, and was mad Kakashi was claimed as the hero with HIS eye.
Just a thought..

then even though being claimed a hero, he failed to save rin.


----------



## Moon Fang (Aug 20, 2012)

The thing is there is probably more than one reason for Tobi to be wearing that mask.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> ALSO.
> If you read in between the lines of 597, it does point to Obito.
> "Where, you say?" Why would Tobi reiterate 'where' instead of just answering?
> Unless he's implying he didn't* find* it, but he *awakened* it.
> ...



I don't remember where, but somewhere in this thread Saist or someone else posted a statement by someone who reads the Raws and in that statement there was something about the usage of his words that exemplify Kakashi came to a realization and Tobi aiming directly at Kakashi. But I honestly can't remember. The quote was by someone who started with an H. Sorry but it was REALLY good, with the jap character language used.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I don't remember where, but somewhere in this thread Saist or someone else posted a statement by someone who reads the Raws and in that statement there was something about the usage of his words that exemplify Kakashi came to a realization and Tobi aiming directly at Kakashi. But I honestly can't remember. The quote was by someone who started with an H. Sorry but it was REALLY good, with the jap character language used.



Let me go look at the raw, I speak Japanese. XD


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Let me go look at the raw, I speak Japanese. XD



I don't have it, try google images
Or I'm pretty sure you can get it from this site, sec

mangahead.com


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I don't have it, try google images
> Or I'm pretty sure you can get it from this site, sec
> 
> mangahead.com



I'll go look at it and come back with what I find.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Guy says "yatsu wa" which can be translated into "He is"
> 
> Kakashi says "omae wa" which, used in this context, means "You are". In most conversations when they use a pronoun and then leave off with wa, it typically means "pronoun + to be". "He is..." and "You are" are correct.
> 
> Gai's statement could either be "Is he...?" or "He is..."



Is that what you were talking about, Mistshadow?


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

I hate the Kagami theory but since I'm presenting points for each theory now, whether I hate them or not I might as well bring out a few points for Kagami I've thought of before, but not mentioned due to my deep hatred of the theory.

Alright, so we know that Kagami was on a team with the Elders. I'd assume that the six of them were in fact, a team as you can see Torifu along side Team Tobirama. Now, all the Uchiha were supposedly missing during the attack for unknown reasons, but an Elder? Could this be a sign that he was actually evil and plotting something, perhaps behind the attack (hope not)? Also, when the Elders and the rest of the shinobi jump up to fight Kurama, you see Tobi's foot land on a tree. Nothing much, I know but it seems to be a small hint...

Now, when Kabuto showed Tobi the sixth coffin, Tobi was standing in front of it, obviously blocking Madara, because Tobi's a good boy and didn't want to spoil the twist. What's odd is that tobi was standing right in front of Madara, almost _mirroring_ him. And Kagami's name means mirror. I hate this theory, but the name is one thing that bugs me and makes me think it might be plausible....

One more thing, the name "Kagami" is basically describing Uchiha in general. Now this could signify that he's a very important/strong Uchiha, or it could signify hat whoever named him must have been pretty conceded and thought their child deserved to be called that. Who could think like that? Madara, perhaps?

.....

Also, when Tobirama chooses Hiruzen for Hokage, you can see Kagami;s face with blackened out eyes looking sad. Jealous, perhaps? Maybe Kagami wanted to undo the injustices done to the Uchiha by the Senju, so he suggested the decoy to get Tobirama killed out of hatred, and maybe was hoping Tobirama would pick him as the new Hokage. I mean, it's already suspicious that Tobirama had an Uchiha on his team when he was stated to be suspicious if Uchihas.

Fuck, there's more evidence for him than I thought.....


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I hate the Kagami theory but since I'm presenting points for each theory now, whether I hate them or not I might as well bring out a few points for Kagami I've thought of before, but not mentioned due to my deep hatred of the theory.
> 
> Alright, so we know that Kagami was on a team with the Elders. I'd assume that the six of them were in fact, a team as you can see Torifu along side Team Tobirama. Now, all the Uchiha were supposedly missing during the attack for unknown reasons, but an Elder? Could this be a sign that he was actually evil and plotting something, perhaps behind the attack (hope not)? Also, when the Elders and the rest of the shinobi jump up to fight Kurama, you see Tobi's foot land on a tree. Nothing much, I know but it seems to be a small hint...
> 
> ...



Madara-Kagami-Obito


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

In reality, Obito and Kagami are the only real candidates left. If you think it's Izuna, . He's been confirmed dead. And I'll just laugh at you if you say Setsuna. You might as well pick Kagami. 

Every other theory has far too many holes. It's like trying fill in a black hole.

What if... Tobi is Kagami AND Obito?


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

You know, I've thought for a while that Kakashi's father, Sakumo fit the bill of Tobi.  Sure, we've "seen his spirit in the afterlife", but that scene doesn't quite add up to me.  What point was there to it?  There was no character development, and Kakashi telling Sakumo he forgave him was nothing new to us, as that was pretty evident when he took on Obito's way of thinking.  Also, the last time we'd even heard of Sakumo was in the Kakashi gaiden arc, *four years* ago.  Here's what we know about him:

1 .He made a name for himself in the second war, gaining a reputation overshadowing that of even the sannin.

2. His wife died some time during the third war, how we don't know.

3. He had the same ideals that Obito did, that your comrades are even more important than the mission.  This lead to his epic failure where he sacrificed an important mission to save his comrades.  The result of this was the village, including the people he saved, turned against him, driving him to suicide.

4. Kabuto did not bring him back with edo tensei, despite the ease with which he could've gotten his dna.  He also did not offer an explanation as to why, and did not even express any interest in him, despite him being so well known, and most likely powerful.

So, in short, we've got someone who fits the timeline, has the connection to Kakashi, is supposed to be dead, and has fought in not one, but two wars.  Then, his village turned on him and caused him to supposedly kill himself, and despite how well known he was, has not been brought back for the war.

Physically, he has the wrong hair color, but considering how identifiable his hair was, he would have certainly had to change it in order to become Tobi.  After all, look at how easily Chiyo mistook Kakashi for Sakumo, and he has at least 75% of his face covered up by his mask and headband.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Is that what you were talking about, Mistshadow?


No, there was another one about tone.



Awesome said:


> In reality, Obito and Kagami are the only real candidates left. If you think it's Izuna, . He's been confirmed dead. And I'll just laugh at you if you say Setsuna. You might as well pick Kagami.
> 
> Every other theory has far too many holes. It's like trying fill in a black hole.
> 
> What if... Tobi is Kagami AND Obito?



If you include Kagami..........then you have to include Setsuna as well since he has the same time period role. Which is kinda sad. I'm jut saying in the logic of an ordinary fan
Setsuna and Kagami have the same amount, with Setsuna having in fact more character since he has a whole profile in the databook outlining his personality


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## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Now, when Kabuto showed Tobi the sixth coffin, Tobi was standing in front of it, obviously blocking Madara, because Tobi's a good boy and didn't want to spoil the twist. What's odd is that tobi was standing right in front of Madara, almost _mirroring_ him. And Kagami's name means mirror. I hate this theory, but the name is one thing that bugs me and makes me think it might be plausible....



I like this theory a lot.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Okay, so after reading the raw scan.
I've noticed three things.
Tobi speaks with katakana, in some words.
Katakana is usually used for english words, or sounds.
Though, in manga it can be used to signify a distinct way of talking.

Also, Kakashi says "omae wa".
Omae is a form of you. Though it's usually used informally, or to someone you know personally. It's a more formal version of 'kimi' basically. 

So, it could be implied that Kakashi is saying you as in Obito, or he could be referring to the eye.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

Tobi is Kagami and Obito:

1. Fixes all the timeline plotholes
2. Could all be descendants of Madara
3. Kagami could have been controlling the bloody mist
4. Could have taught Obito everything he knew which is why he grew so much in a year
5. Thematic relevance in Naruto vs Tobi is still there since the current Tobi is Obito


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> ALSO.
> If you read in between the lines of 597, it does point to Obito.
> "Where, you say?" Why would Tobi reiterate 'where' instead of just answering?
> Unless he's implying he didn't* find* it, but he *awakened* it.
> ...


I've thought that also. It's weird how Tobi seemed to dance around with his words.



Awesome said:


> In reality, Obito and Kagami are the only real candidates left. If you think it's Izuna, . He's been confirmed dead. And I'll just laugh at you if you say Setsuna. You might as well pick Kagami.
> 
> Every other theory has far too many holes. It's like trying fill in a black hole.
> 
> What if... Tobi is Kagami AND Obito?


I don't think either Kagami or Setsuna or any one paneled character is likely, nor would it be good writing. But, looking at some new evidence I presented for Kagami, I think he;s at least more plausible than Setsuna now. I know there's no way t can be Izuna, but there;s always been something about him I can't seem to shake off...


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Okay, so after reading the raw scan.
> I've noticed three things.
> Tobi speaks with katakana, in some words.
> Katakana is usually used for english words, or sounds.
> ...



Thankyou, but for the "you" referring to Obito's eye, it would make more sense to say "that" or "it". Which is why that "you" seems more likely to be referring to Obito


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Also, Tobi speaks as if he thinks Kakashi understands exactly.
It's like, Tobi is speaking un generally assuming Kakashi already knows.
Well, it's implied anyway.



Mistshadow said:


> Thankyou, but for the "you" referring to Obito's eye, it would make more sense to say "that" or "it". Which is why that "you" seems more likely to be referring to Obito



Yeah, that's basically the scenario.
It could be a curve ball, or a clue.

I'm leaning more towards Obito now.
Otherwise, Kakashi would have no reason to call him by "omae" rather than "anata" or just a simple address.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira finally seeing the Obito relevance in the chapter?


----------



## son_michael (Aug 20, 2012)

You know guys, not everything has to make perfect sense. The fun of a mystery reveal is when your like "but that's impossible!' and the author proceeds to explain why its not impossible.


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

I'd say as a theory backed with solid logic is whether or not Tobi is Obito, his right eye definitely belongs to Obito.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

son_michael said:


> You know guys, not everything has to make perfect sense. The fun of a mystery reveal is when your like "but that's impossible!' and the author proceeds to explain why its not impossible.



Thus the one year argument.
It's the easiest argument to explain.








Yeah, it's Obito.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> No, there was another one about tone.


You mean what Hexa posted?



> Thus the one year argument.
> It's the easiest argument to explain.
> 
> 
> ...


Are you just going back and forth between which theories you like, lol?


----------



## Udontard4ever (Aug 20, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> You know, I've thought for a while that Kakashi's father, Sakumo fit the bill of Tobi.  Sure, we've "seen his spirit in the afterlife", but that scene doesn't quite add up to me.  What point was there to it?  There was no character development, and Kakashi telling Sakumo he forgave him was nothing new to us, as that was pretty evident when he took on Obito's way of thinking.  Also, the last time we'd even heard of Sakumo was in the Kakashi gaiden arc, *four years* ago.  Here's what we know about him:
> 
> 1 .He made a name for himself in the second war, gaining a reputation overshadowing that of even the sannin.
> 
> ...




would have been awesome and that line about failing the mission last chapter would fit completely with his character, the hatred for the village but also the self loathing and his desire to become no one.
unfortunately it won't be


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You mean what Hexa posted?
> 
> Are you just going back and forth between which theories you like, lol?



Well, not exactly.

I never really had a theory.
Only ideas.
Though this Japanese translation makes a whole lot more sense that what I read...


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> You know, I've thought for a while that Kakashi's father, Sakumo fit the bill of Tobi. Sure, we've "seen his spirit in the afterlife", but that scene doesn't quite add up to me. What point was there to it? There was no character development, and Kakashi telling Sakumo he forgave him was nothing new to us, as that was pretty evident when he took on Obito's way of thinking. Also, the last time we'd even heard of Sakumo was in the Kakashi gaiden arc, four years ago. Here's what we know about him:
> 
> 1 .He made a name for himself in the second war, gaining a reputation overshadowing that of even the sannin.
> 
> ...


Just because you didn't see the point of it doesn't mean he isn't dead.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

It reads DOKO deka.


doko-where
deka-slang for "desu ka" which implies a question.

ex. boku wa doku desu ka. Lit. where am i?


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 20, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Main character dumbass
> 
> 
> You just type one convoluted mess with a shit ton of mistakes or things that have irrelevance or apply to every possible character. this is going to take a while so I'll rebuttal it for you........
> ...




I'm not discussing time travel with you because I don't believe it exists in this manga, at least not yet.



You have three red bars for idiocy of saying a character CAN NOT be it because he sucks with absolutely nothing not even logic to back it up[/QUOTE]

*ObitoUchiha111 trolling >>>> yours*


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

There is still one thing that I don't get. During Tobi's fight against Konan, he was still wearing the mask with only his right eye exposed. I pretty much thought this meant that he had only one eye.Then this happened...



What would be the logic in covering the other eye up, especially in battle? If that right eye is Obito's then the left definitely can not be, since Kakashi has that eye. Where did that left eye come from?


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:
			
		

> ObitoUchiha111 trolling >>>> yours


Is that a compliment or an insult?


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

He already wasted the other eye when Itachi used amaterasu on him. That's not his eye, no matter who you believe Tobi is. That eye is a transplant across all the Tobi theories.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 20, 2012)

son_michael said:


> You know guys, not everything has to make perfect sense. The fun of a mystery reveal is when your like "but that's impossible!' and the author proceeds to explain why its not impossible.


I'm aware, that's why people who sprout "plotholes impossible!" are pissing me off. Those mysteries are there so we can't confirm 100%



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You mean what Hexa posted?


YES, that was the name, can you quote that post please.



(510)THIZZ said:


> *ObitoUchiha111 trolling >>>> yours*



Don't care, you lack critical thinking.


ANYWAYS GUYS IM TYPING UP SOMETHING BIG AND COOL SO BE READY FOR IT STAY AWAKE



YellowSennin said:


> What would be the logic in covering the other eye up, especially in battle? If that right eye is Obito's then the left definitely can not be, since Kakashi has that eye. Where did that left eye come from?


His collection of a few hundred other sharingans.
He used Izanagi which sealed that left eye forever. He LIKELY used Izanagi before to put the amaterasu flames out. You use one up and put on a new one with his left one seems he uses them as disposable cookies for last minute saves when his S/T fails him. Now he has a Rinnegan there.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 20, 2012)

Tobi's left eye had to have come from one of the Uchiha's that were murdered.
It may have done something else. Obito also didn't like things in his eyes.
Maybe that's why he kept the other one hidden.





Or Kishis trolling.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Just because you didn't see the point of it doesn't mean he isn't dead.



That's why it's a theory.  I'm questioning it and coming up with a hypothesis, not outright saying it didn't happen.  At any rate, that was actually rather incomplete lol.  What I forgot to say was that the point I did read out of it, was to 1. Remind us that Sakumo was there, and that he was important.

2. To put Sakumo in as Kakashi's greatest regret.  

After Sakumo died Kakashi began to loathe him until Obito changed his mind later.  So, a bitter Sakumo fakes his death, and follows Kakashi around to see how he'll live life without him.  Seeing what a prick Kakashi has become, and then witnessing his life after, he becomes disgusted with Kakashi along with his already existing hatred for the village, leading to his current verbal lashings.


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> There is still one thing that I don't get. During Tobi's fight against Konan, he was still wearing the mask with only his right eye exposed. I pretty much thought this meant that he had only one eye.Then this happened...
> 
> 
> 
> What would be the logic in covering the other eye up, especially in battle? If that right eye is Obito's then the left definitely can not be, since Kakashi has that eye. Where did that left eye come from?


He probably just implanted one of those hundreds of Sharingan he had in his lab.

This raises another question. If Tobi isn't Obito, and the eye he took from obito never turns off, shouldn't he be dead from chakra drain by now? Unless of course, he's Obito.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> This raises another question. If Tobi isn't Obito, and the eye he took from obito never turns off, shouldn't he be dead from chakra drain by now? Unless of course, he's Obito.



He should be able to, theoretically, turn off transplant eyes as well (otherwise EMS probably wouldn't be possible)

Not a definite point for Obito, but a possible one.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He probably just implanted one of those hundreds of Sharingan he had in his lab.
> 
> This raises another question. If Tobi isn't Obito, and the eye he took from obito never turns off, shouldn't he be dead from chakra drain by now? Unless of course, he's Obito.



And of course, that must also mean that implanted rinnegan must be his, since he hasn't died from chakra exhaustion from that either.


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 20, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He probably just implanted one of those hundreds of Sharingan he had in his lab.
> 
> This raises another question. If Tobi isn't Obito, and the eye he took from obito never turns off, shouldn't he be dead from chakra drain by now? Unless of course, he's Obito.



That's a good point, but I think that could be maybe because when Uchiha's transplant sharingans they don't suffer from chakra drain. Which leads me back to square one, why did Tobi cover his left eye up until he got the rinnegan?


----------



## enix04 (Aug 20, 2012)

Any else notice the prominence of boulders/falling rocks for the past 3-4 chapters? Even in 597 when everyone is just standing around talking, in ever panel there are boulders falling. Huh...weird...


----------



## NW (Aug 20, 2012)

> And of course, that must also mean that implanted rinnegan must be his, since he hasn't died from chakra exhaustion from that either.


Damn, I forgot about that, lol. But still.



> Any else notice the prominence of boulders/falling rocks for the past 3-4 chapters? Even in 597 when everyone is just standing around talking, in ever panel there are boulders falling. Huh...weird...


Oh, the parallels...


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

enix04 said:


> Any else notice the prominence of boulders/falling rocks for the past 3-4 chapters? Even in 597 when everyone is just standing around talking, in ever panel there are boulders falling. Huh...weird...



lawl.

More than likely Tobi goes through left sharingans like crazy to do things.
Who knows?

When he got the rinnegan, he had to keep it open to use it for his plan.
That explains that portion.

Again, before he could have just kept it hidden for Obitos reasoning.
That is if he's obito.


Also, the rinnegan is the highest form of sharingan.
So, if it's true about implanted sharingans not being affected by chakra exhaustion, that explains it.


----------



## Easley (Aug 21, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> I'd say as a theory backed with solid logic is whether or not Tobi is Obito, his right eye definitely belongs to Obito.


I think that's a given, but if we take it a step further Obito himself is possible. As drama, it's the best option because it involves Kakashi personally - just using his eye won't have the same impact.

I'm not ruling anything out though. The battle of Kannabi bridge would be common knowledge in Konoha, so anyone could go there and recover the eye, and know the story behind it. Tobi is a manipulator. He could be playing with Kakashi's emotions.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 21, 2012)

enix04 said:


> Any else notice the prominence of boulders/falling rocks for the past 3-4 chapters? Even in 597 when everyone is just standing around talking, in ever panel there are boulders falling. Huh...weird...



You know what... 

That makes a lot of sense.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Kishi could have originally planned for Obito to be Tobi.
Which is why he only had one eye shown, then decided to throw a curve ball with the two sharingan.

Again, Tobi could easily just acquire one.


then again, like he said, Tobi could just be toying with Kakashi's emotions seeing as how he's easily the biggest threat.


----------



## Talis (Aug 21, 2012)

What if an Uchiha cant also turn off another Uchiha's Sharingan besides the EMS?
Would make sense why Tobi hide it like Kakashi, so it won't drain all his chakra.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

For continuously active Rinnegan chakra drain.

Uchiha bodies are adapt for all dojutsu's it seems. Doesn't necessarily have to be the same Uchiha body to eye. And Rinnegan is just a glorious sharingan.
Also Senju dna solves all of lifes chakra problems



loool3 said:


> What if an Uchiha cant also turn off another Uchiha's Sharingan besides the EMS?
> Would make sense why Tobi hide it like Kakashi, so it won't drain all his chakra.



No look at Sasuke and Madara, they can turn off their eyes, and those belong to their brothers.


----------



## Easley (Aug 21, 2012)

Awesome said:


> You know what...
> 
> That makes a lot of sense.


If he was shaking and having palpitations or something, I'd agree. After such a traumatic event he would be terrified of rocks.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 21, 2012)

Acquire one?

Acquire *one*?

Bitch please.


----------



## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

> Kishi could have originally planned for Obito to be Tobi.
> Which is why he only had one eye shown, then decided to throw a curve ball with the two sharingan.
> 
> Again, Tobi could easily just acquire one.
> ...


Nah, his identity's been planned from the start and hasn't changed. Also, how would Tobi know such personal things about Kakashi if he's not Obito? I'm just saying.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Acquire one?
> 
> Acquire *one*?
> 
> Bitch please.



lawl.
Again, easy to acquire.






ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Nah, his identity's been planned from the start and hasn't changed. Also, how would Tobi know such personal things about Kakashi if he's not Obito? I'm just saying.



Same way he knows about Madara, Sasuke, Itachi, Minato, Naruto, Konoha, 9 Tails, Sage, 10 tails, etc.

lmao


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Kishi could have originally planned for Obito to be Tobi.
> Which is why he only had one eye shown, then decided to throw a curve ball with the two sharingan.
> 
> Again, Tobi could easily just acquire one.
> ...



I think this is highly likely, which is what I meant before about Kishi probably changed his mind when everyone figured it out really quickly, it just became too obvious. Which accounts for the plot hole with his mask up until now. 

It just doesn't make sense to cover your eye up for no reason.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> I think this is highly likely, which is what I meant before about Kishi probably changed his mind when everyone figured it out really quickly, it just became too obvious. Which accounts for the plot hole with his mask up until now.
> 
> It just doesn't make sense to cover your eye up for no reason.



I think he's always meant to make it the same character.
Tobi came before Obito, so I do believe it was meant as a small reveal, but then he was surprised so many people caught on.

So, he threw a twist.


----------



## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

> Same way he knows about Madara, Sasuke, Itachi, Minato, Naruto, Konoha, 9 Tails, Sage, 10 tails, etc.


But he's been in direct contact with Madara. And definitely would know his personal history. He knows about Naruto cuz he killed his parents and Zetsu tell him shit. He knows about Itachi because... well... um... Well, you got me there, but Tobi never got so emotional around Itachi, now did he?



Fureikusu Kira said:


> I think he's always meant to make it the same character.
> Tobi came before Obito, so I do believe it was meant as a small reveal, but then he was surprised so many people caught on.
> 
> So, he threw a twist.


Obito was first seen in chapter 16. That was before Tobi was mentioned. So, yeah. Obito came before.



			
				YelowSennin said:
			
		

> I think this is highly likely, which is what I meant before about Kishi probably changed his mind when everyone figured it out really quickly, it just became too obvious. Which accounts for the plot hole with his mask up until now.
> 
> It just doesn't make sense to cover your eye up for no reason.


Tobi's identity has been planned from the start and hasn't changed. Kishi's not the type to change something because people figure it out. And, if Tobi is obito, the casual fan probably never even suspected Obito. And the casual fans are his target audience. I mean, look how obvious all the other twists were.


----------



## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> I think he's always meant to make it the same character.
> Tobi came before Obito, so I do believe it was meant as a small reveal, but then he was surprised so many people caught on.
> 
> So, he threw a twist.


Obito was first seen in chapter 16. That was before Tobi was mentioned. So, yeah. Obito came before.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Nah, his identity's been planned from the start and hasn't changed. Also, how would Tobi know such personal things about Kakashi if he's not Obito? I'm just saying.



Because he's Sakumo in Obito's body, which will mindfuck Kakashi into oblivion


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> But he's been in direct contact with Madara. And definitely would know his personal history. He knows about Naruto cuz he killed his parents and Zetsu tell him shit. He knows about Itachi because... well... um... Well, you got me there, but Tobi never got so emotional around Itachi, now did he?



but how do we KNOW he worked with Madara? 

We just know he knew of Madara, and Madara knew of him.
The rest is speculation. How did he know about Minato specifically? 
Unless he's Obito. or about Kushina being the jinchuriki?


no, no he did not.


----------



## Talis (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> No look at Sasuke and Madara, they can turn off their eyes, and those belong to their brothers.


Like i said besides the EMS.
Notice how you can gain the EMS *only *by taking your brothers eyes.
It should make sense, if you get someone elses MS you won't be able to transform it into the EMS nor you probably cant turn the Sharingan on/off.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Tobi came before Obito, so I do believe it was meant as a small reveal, but then he was surprised so many people caught on.
> 
> So, he threw a twist.



Tobi showed up in part 2 at end of the Rescue Kazekage Arc.
Obito showed up at mentioned points in part 1. And had his reveal inbetween part 1 and part 2 being released.

Obito predates Tobi by a good arc



loool3 said:


> It should make sense, if you get someone elses MS you won't be able to transform it into the EMS nor you probably cant turn the Sharingan on/off.


But Danzo was able to use Koto, which is an MS jutsu, and we've seen it in 3 tomoe mode. Everytime he 'used koto' was when bandaged since it doesn't require eye contact.
Kakashi is able to turn his 3 tomoe to MS and back to 3 tomoe when needed.

edit: this applies to itachis crow too went from ms to  3 tomoe despite being implanted


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> I think he's always meant to make it the same character.



I don't.



No one has ever been able to explain to me why he'd draw their hair different when Tobi made his debut if he had always planned for him to be Obito. People's hair might change length in the manga but the way it lays never changes normally. It's always consistent.


----------



## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Because he's Sakumo in Obito's body, which will mindfuck Kakashi into oblivion


:amazed

Maybe he did some soul splittin' shit like Oro.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> but how do we KNOW he worked with Madara?


Cuz he did, lol.



> We just know he knew of Madara, and Madara knew of him.


And that they had a plan together.


> The rest is speculation. How did he know about Minato specifically?
> Unless he's Obito. or about Kushina being the jinchuriki?


Minato showed his team to his wife maybe.




> no, no he did not.


Wait. what? I;m confused, lol.



loool3 said:


> Like i said besides the EMS.
> Notice how you can gain the EMS *only *by taking your brothers eyes.
> It should make sense, if you get someone elses MS you won't be able to transform it into the EMS nor you probably cant turn the Sharingan on/off.


You don't need to take your brother's eyes to get EMS. Taking someone of direct blood ties just increases the chances.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> :amazed
> 
> Maybe he did some soul splittin' shit like Oro.
> 
> ...



How would Madara have still been alive when Obito was born though?


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 21, 2012)

> You don't need to take your brother's eyes to get EMS. Taking someone of direct blood ties just increases the chances.



Well, considering all two examples we have of ems have been just that, I don't know how we can say there's even evidence of anything else.



Fureikusu Kira said:


> How would Madara have still been alive when Obito was born though?



See, this is where the problem comes in.  Madara says he died shortly after achieving rinnegan.  Tobi, claiming to be Madara, says he was taking back what was his to begin with when he took Nagato's eyes.

Those two statements together, indicate that he shouldn't have been alive to meet Obito.  If Tobi had simply left it at "I was the one who gave Nagato the rinnegan", then feasibly Madara could have been Nagato's father, and gave them to him through dna.  When Tobi said that second part, he basically said that Madara implanted the eyes in Nagato's head.


----------



## YellowSennin (Aug 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi's identity has been planned from the start and hasn't changed. Kishi's not the type to change something because people figure it out. And, if Tobi is obito, the casual fan probably never even suspected Obito. And the casual fans are his target audience. I mean, look how obvious all the other twists were.



Why is not possible for Kishi to originally plan Tobi to be Obito then change his mind? Unfortunately for you, you cannot read his mind and most likely nor have you spoken to him personally for that answer to be confirmed. You cannot possibly make such rash statements as ''NO! NO! KISHI DID NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, I KNOW! I JUST KNOW!". Secondly, the casual fan does not read 597 chapters of a manga.


----------



## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> I don't.
> 
> 
> 
> No one has ever been able to explain to me why he'd draw their hair different when Tobi made his debut if he had always planned for him to be Obito. People's hair might change length in the manga but the way it lays never changes normally. It's always consistent.


Tobi's identity has been planned from the start, This much is confirmed.

Really? HAIR?!

Well, either Kishi was drunk, orrrrrr, that's just how is it now because he cut it and remember his hair when he fought Minato?

Anyway, looking at Obito's hair from different angles, it can look like that too.


----------



## Talis (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> How would Madara have still been alive when Obito was born though?


He gave a kid Nagato the Rinnegan at that time.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 21, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Because he's Sakumo in Obito's body, which will mindfuck Kakashi into oblivion



That would really fuck up Kakashi. Do it Kishi


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Okay So I decided to have a little fun and show everyone each line the narrowed down identities lines have had in this manga.
* Now tell me who seems most likely*

Kagami: "Impossible, in a situation like this all we can do is send someone as bait to get their attention"

Izuna: "_____________________"

Setsuna: "__________________"

Obito:
 Chapter 1- "Damnit, at this rate I'll be killed. Will I make it? Did I just make it in time? No, On the way, I had to show the way to and old woman carrying luggage..... Plus there was something in my eye. I carried her luggage too. Have you no kindness? Its always about the rules, the regulations, shut up. The key point is your own self control. What was it again? Split... Then. Sorry, I wasn't listening. What's with that hand? I didn't do anything for you, absolutely nothing. It's a mystery how you ever became a jounin. I am uchiha obito of the Uchiha clan, I will surpass you! As soon as I awaken the sharingan. OK! What about you? What, What is that Jutsu?"

Chapter 2- "Y...Yes. What do you mean Fine! You selfishly went your way against senseis orders and did something crazy. There was something in my eye and the tears were to get it out. Sensei I understand the importance of teamwork But Kakashi's  always making me out to be a lazy idiot.  Though I'm called the elite because I was born in the Uchiha clan, I'm a loser, I acknowledge that Kakashi's an amazing person but. White Fang..Now that you mention it, I've heard of him too. A hero who died to protect the village. Kakashi never said a word about him. Incident? What happened?"

Chapter 3-  "Let's get going commander. Katon Fire release, great fireball jutsu. DAMNIT! What? What the hell are you saying? Rin. What about Rin? What you're saying doesn't include Rin's safety! If those guys were just unthinking flunkies what would happen then? More importantly than the mission we have to rescue Rin. That's just speculation! Just for that you'd simply throw away who's always been with you through thick and thin. When you and I were injured she saved our lives with medical ninjutsu. If she hadn't been there, we'd be long dead. I definitely can't stand you. If that's the case why do you refuse to rescue Rin? Only you have the strength to save your companion. Rin gave you a medical pack out of concern over you. And she sewed a charm into it. Are you serious? Do you really think like that? Fine then, from the beginning you and I were like water and oil. I'm going to rescue Rin. I believe that the White Fang is a true hero. Of course those in the ninja world who break rules and regulations are called trash. But those who don't care about their companions are worse than trash. *Anyway if I'm that kind of trash, I'll break the rules, If that's not the idea of being a shinbo, then I'll BREAK that idea of a shinobi * " (Pretty Noticeable)

Chapter 4- "Found them, Stay calm, I can do this. Right let's go. Kakashi!? Why? Kakashi. Of course. Where is he? Kakashi! Hey, you alright? I'm always mouthing off. Always having people save me. I'm just a mouthing-off loser. But, Those words alone, I don't want them to just be mouthing off. Now, I will protect my companions!" (Lots of action)

Chapter 5- "Yeah it seems like sharingan. I can see the movement and flow of chakra. Are you ok kakashi!? Right. Rin's chakra flow is irregular. Completely different to yours or mine. Right! We came to save you Rin. It's alright now. Oh Damn. Are you ok, Rin? Kakashi? That's enough, it's ok Kakashi. It looks like its over for me. The right side of my body is almost smashed. There is no feeling in it. Hey, No, Forget it. I'm the only one who didn't give you a present. At your jounin celebration. What would be good, I was thinking, and now I've come up with it, Don't worry its not useless baggage.  It's, this Sharingan of mine. The people of the village, what they must have been saying, That you're a great jounin, that's how I feel, Please accept it. Rin, with your medical jutsu please take out my sharingan, and implant it into Kakashi's left eye. I'm already going to die. But I can become your eye and from now on I will see the future. " (again lots of action)

Chapter 6- "Kakashi take care of rin. Relax Rin. Kakashi, take care of Rin and get out of here. The enemy's reinforcements are coming for sure. It's alright, go. Kakashi, even though we finally became friends, I couldn't finally admit it to Rin. I wanted to be together with everyone longer. "

And just to put the final nail: 

Coincidence with the talk of that battle Kakashi becoming the Sharingan Kakashi Hero.


Now honestly tell me, who seems the most likely between those 4 for plot relevance and everything.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 21, 2012)

Obviously Kagami


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## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

darprince132345 said:
			
		

> Well, considering all two examples we have of ems have been just that, I don't know how we can say there's even evidence of anything else.


SaiST, get in here!



			
				Fureikusu Kira said:
			
		

> How would Madara have still been alive when Obito was born though?


Well, maybe instead of his own eyes, he gave Nagato his old, blind eyes, and Nagato's Senju DNA restored the light. Just speculation but it seems plausible. SO, he could have lived to see Obito.



			
				YelowSennin said:
			
		

> Why is not possible for Kishi to originally plan Tobi to be Obito then change his mind? Unfortunately for you, you cannot read his mind and most likely nor have you spoken to him personally for that answer to be confirmed. You cannot possibly make such rash statements as ''NO! NO! KISHI DID NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, I KNOW! I JUST KNOW!". Secondly, the casual fan does not read 597 chapters of a manga.


Kishi said he had the end of the manga planed. And he said that BEFORE Tobi was introduced. Plus, Kishi's too good a writer to pull that "Oops, I changed him" shit.

That's like turning Naruto into Kiba.


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## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Okay So I decided to have a little fun and show everyone each line the narrowed down identities lines have had in this manga.
> * Now tell me who seems most likely*
> 
> Kagami: "Impossible, in a situation like this all we can do is send someone as bait to get their attention"
> ...





Unfair.
lol
just unfair.


Question. 
If Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan, how did he have sharingan during the war?


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## Menacing Eyes (Aug 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi's identity has been planned from the start, This much is confirmed.
> 
> Really? HAIR?!
> 
> ...


It seems you're misunderstanding the intent of my post. I'm not using the hair as a means as to why it can't be Obito, but rather that if Tobi turns out to be Obito, I doubt that's what Kishi originally had in his mind at first.

I've noticed that as the manga has gone on, Tobi's hair has gradually changed to something more spiky like what Naruto and Obito have.

Also, can you provide one of these Obito panels where it lays that way? I remember Obito's hair being consistently spiky like Naruto's. I don't ever remembering it laying quite like Tobi's does there. I might be inclined to believe you if you can come up with one.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Unfair.
> lol
> just unfair.
> 
> ...



Not my fault, people needed to wake up and drink the coffee on what they believe. Honestly people weren't thinking on the sheer amount when they called Obito fodder with no depth and Kagami "must be epic" level
< 3
My eyes hurt though from that typing and reading.

Which war? if I had to say depending on what you are taking about and which way kishi wants to use, Madara gave nagato his rinnegan then implanted a pair of ordinary sharingan eyes. but really can be any number of reasons.


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## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Not my fault, people needed to wake up and drink the coffee on what they believe. Honestly people weren't thinking on the sheer amount when they called Obito fodder with no depth and Kagami "must be epic" level
> < 3
> My eyes hurt though from that typing and reading.
> 
> Which war? if I had to say depending on what you are taking about and which way kishi wants to use, Madara gave nagato his rinnegan then implanted a pair of ordinary sharingan eyes. but really can be any number of reasons.



Current.

If he gave Nagato the rinnegan, how does he have them when he's reanimated?


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## YellowSennin (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Current.
> 
> If he gave Nagato the rinnegan, how does he have them when he's reanimated?



Oo... Kishi is really confusing me!


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## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Current.
> 
> If he gave Nagato the rinnegan, how does he have them when he's reanimated?



OOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooo

That's an easy one.

Because he's a special edo tensei not resurrected in the way he was at death, but rather because he was made to have and be everything he can at its best. His original eyes, his grafted on hashirama cells, and his prime youth and physique. Which is as Kabuto noted when he was talking to Madara.

Or as some say LAWLKISHI
How did Sasori have a body PERIOD


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## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> It seems you're misunderstanding the intent of my post. I'm not using the hair as a means as to why it can't be Obito, but rather that if Tobi turns out to be Obito, I doubt that's what Kishi originally had in his mind at first.
> 
> I've noticed that as the manga has gone on, Tobi's hair has gradually changed to something more spiky like what Naruto and Obito have.
> 
> Also, can you provide one of these Obito panels where it lays that way? I remember Obito's hair being consistently spiky like Naruto's. I don't ever remembering it laying quite like Tobi's does there. I might be inclined to believe you if you can come up with one.


IT wasn't exactly THAT low, put it was on the cover page of chapter 2, 3, or 4 of Gaiden. Too lazy to check.

But, I perfectly understood your post. I'm just saying that a little change in hair isn't really a problem, especially as it was only one panel in the entire manga. Tobi's identity has been set from the start.


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## Easley (Aug 21, 2012)

loool3 said:


> He gave a kid Nagato the Rinnegan at that time.


That fits the timeline, but what about Yagura? How is he still alive then? It's possible the long haired man is the real Madara, but he would be about 80 years old, give or take.


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## darkprinc979 (Aug 21, 2012)

> If Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan, how did he have sharingan during the war?



You're talking about edo Madara right?  Kabuto said he revived him in his prime, meaning that's not the state he was in when he died.

Edit:  Still wanna know why he didn't revive Sakumo though.  Doesn't really matter in the long run, but it bothers the hell out of me.


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## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> OOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooo
> 
> That's an easy one.
> 
> ...



Okay.
That makes sense.













In kishis world. -______________________-


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## YellowSennin (Aug 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> SaiST, get in here!
> 
> Well, maybe instead of his own eyes, he gave Nagato his old, blind eyes, and Nagato's Senju DNA restored the light. Just speculation but it seems plausible. SO, he could have lived to see Obito.
> 
> ...



Haha, and from that ambiguous statement you came to the conclusion that Kishi must never go back on his words, nor can he change Tobi's identity? Get real.


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## cant i guest post (Aug 21, 2012)

it's pretty likely that Kakashi couldnt save Rin in the war and Obito (assuming he survived) went crazy and now is Tobi.  Notice we don't see Rin when the Kyuubi attacks.  What I'd like to know is how Rin died and who killed her but I think we'll find that out.


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## darkprinc979 (Aug 21, 2012)

cant i guest post said:


> it's pretty likely that Kakashi couldnt save Rin in the war and Obito (assuming he survived) went crazy and now is Tobi.  Notice we don't see Rin when the Kyuubi attacks.  What I'd like to know is how Rin died and who killed her but I think we'll find that out.



Well, she was a medic nin.  She would've been out healing the wounded, not fighting on the front lines.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Y
> Edit:  Still wanna know why he didn't revive Sakumo though.  Doesn't really matter in the long run, but it bothers the hell out of me.



Too much epicness. And maybe his edo wasn't strong enough at that point that Sakumo couldn't be resurrected. Keep in mind Sakumo was in that realm and then somehow reached a huge point of enlightenment and self realization when he talked with kakashi with that light, perhaps that light engulfing him had something to do with it. but who knows really.


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## Talis (Aug 21, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Obviously Kagami


Dont fuck around, Kagami has not plotholes right Jacamo? 
But he also has no plot.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

lol i love some of you guys, time to crack open a corona and watch warehouse 13 while i keep refreshing this page


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## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> lol i love some of you guys, time to crack open a corona and watch warehouse 13 while i keep refreshing this page



It's what I do, man.

I'm actually about to do a little blogging, before I get on Hulu and find some new BS to get into.





All the while, refreshing the page.


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## Talis (Aug 21, 2012)

Easley said:


> That fits the timeline, but what about Yagura? How is he still alive then? It's possible the long haired man is the real Madara, but he would be about 80 years old, give or take.


He would probably be over 100 years, but the fact that he already lived up to the Era of Nagato suggest us already that he lived pretty long around,so why not another 10-15 years


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## darkprinc979 (Aug 21, 2012)

Lol yeah, this place is good for some laughs.  Sakumo = Tobi


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## Awesome (Aug 21, 2012)

I now endorse Tobi = Sakumo 

Do it Kishi


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## Easley (Aug 21, 2012)

cant i guest post said:


> *it's pretty likely that Kakashi couldnt save Rin in the war and Obito (assuming he survived) went crazy and now is Tobi.* Notice we don't see Rin when the Kyuubi attacks.  What I'd like to know is how Rin died and who killed her but I think we'll find that out.


If that is Kishimoto's explanation for all this, I give up. Yes, let's start a world war and enslave everyone in a genjutsu because one girl died.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

loool3 said:


> He would probably be over 100 years, but the fact that he already lived up to the Era of Nagato suggest us already that he lived pretty long around,so why not another 10-15 years



I'd say Kakuzu would be the best way to guesstimate his age in current time.
Kakuzu was 91 years old.
So let's go with giving Madara another 10 years putting him approximately 101 years old in current time line


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## Talis (Aug 21, 2012)

Easley said:


> If that is Kishimoto's explanation for all this, I give up. Yes, let's start a world war and enslave everyone in a genjutsu because one girl died.


I would do the same.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Lol yeah, this place is good for some laughs.  Sakumo = Tobi





Easley said:


> If that is Kishimoto's explanation for all this, I give up. Yes, let's start a world war and enslave everyone in a genjutsu because one girl died.





loool3 said:


> I would do the same.




*Spoiler*: __ 








I mean it guys


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## Awesome (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I'd say Kakuzu would be the best way to guesstimate his age in current time.
> Kakuzu was 91 years old.
> So let's go with giving Madara another 10 years putting him approximately 101 years old in current time line



Which easily allows him to live during the 2nd Ninja War. It would be relatively easy for the original Madara to be alive even when Obito's alive. He would only be around 70. Put that around 83 around the time Obito got smashed by the boulder. 

To top that off, we don't actually know when Madara died. He could have died at any point after his battle with Hashirama, and there's a good chance he was doing a lot of shit with Hashirama's cells.


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## Talis (Aug 21, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Which easily allows him to live during the 2nd Ninja War. It would be relatively easy for the original Madara to be alive even when Obito's alive. He would only be around 70. Put that around 83 around the time Obito got smashed by the boulder.
> 
> To top that off, we don't actually know when Madara died. He could have died at any point after his battle with Hashirama, and there's a good chance he was doing a lot of shit with Hashirama's cells.


Or maybe he was already ressurected?
Sometimes i get the feeling that Madara somehow already got ressurected for a short while, dont ask me how.


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## Awesome (Aug 21, 2012)

There's really no need for him to be resurrected. He fits along just fine in the timeline as far as age goes.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Which easily allows him to live during the 2nd Ninja War. It would be relatively easy for the original Madara to be alive even when Obito's alive. He would only be around 70. Put that around 83 around the time Obito got smashed by the boulder.
> 
> To top that off, we don't actually know when Madara died. He could have died at any point after his battle with Hashirama, and there's a good chance he was doing a lot of shit with Hashirama's cells.



well I personally believe Madara died somewhere between Obito getting smashed and the kyuubi incident.

And yes he could have lived that long. It would put him right around the same age between Saroutobi's when he died or Onoki's currently. They were both around during Madara's and Hashirama's time. Probably maybe 15 years younger or so. Again I'm just giving guesstimate answers based on very little but likelyness and simple numbers. 
But these numbers I'm using are on the higher end, and when I use them, it makes it Madara less than 100 during the kyuubi incident, likely 80/90


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## Awesome (Aug 21, 2012)

If Madara was alive during that time, it also covers up the plot hole for the Bloody Mist. The only possible plot hole is Kisame recognizing Tobi. That one is only one that is inexplainable with our current knowledge. From what we've seen from Tobi he looks nothing like Madara. Unless Tobi used a transformation technique to fool Kisame, there really is no explaining this.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Awesome said:


> If Madara was alive during that time, it also covers up the plot hole for the Bloody Mist. The only possible plot hole is Kisame recognizing Tobi. That one is only one that is inexplainable with our current knowledge. From what we've seen from Tobi he looks nothing like Madara. Unless Tobi used a transformation technique to fool Kisame, there really is no explaining this.



But Kisame never really confirmed that it was Madara that he met but rather the Tobi we know since he called them both the same thing 'mizukage/madara'.
Since we know Tobi's real name isn't mizukage or madara. And those two chapters revolved around 'lies' along with the fact that Kisame had to make sure the KONOHA shinobi Aoba who is approximately the same age as Kakashi and Gai didn't see the FACE, he had to break the jutsu, because they would know it was a lie and thus his identity as well. Kisame laughed when told he was Madara. and perhaps went along with the lie of calling him Madara regardless. He did go along with calling him Mizukage also in that same sentence. 
Remember Kisame's theme was 'lies'


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## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Pft.
I figured it out.
So simple.








Tobi is the Ichiraku ramen guy.


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## YellowSennin (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm sure that the relationship between Tobi and Madara will be revealed soon. Madara mentioned that he would go and find the nine-tails.


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## Awesome (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> But Kisame never really confirmed that it was Madara that he met but rather the Tobi we know since he called them both the same thing 'mizukage/madara'.
> Since we know Tobi's real name isn't mizukage or madara. And those two chapters revolved around 'lies' along with the fact that Kisame had to make sure the KONOHA shinobi Aoba who is approximately the same age as Kakashi and Gai didn't see the FACE, he had to break the jutsu, because they would know it was a lie and thus his identity as well. Kisame laughed when told he was Madara. and perhaps went along with the lie of calling him Madara regardless. He did go along with calling him Mizukage also in that same sentence.
> Remember Kisame's theme was 'lies'



In which case Madara being alive during the battle at Kannabi Bridge literally solves all plot holes. If Kishi did go the Obito route, things would likely unfold this way.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Awesome said:


> *In which case Madara being alive during the battle at Kannabi Bridge literally solves all plot holes*. If Kishi did go the Obito route, things would likely unfold this way.



And THAT is what I've been saying for over 200 chapters which various others refuse to admit such as Jacamo and Imsogettingbanned and Thebaxman.
Makes it Very possible
By god I think you've got it.

*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4Jvo2sm_xY[/YOUTUBE]



Here you go/
NOW WHERES THAT BLOODY KNIFE


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## Matt-Uchiha (Aug 21, 2012)

For the theory of Obito becoming Tobi because Rin died, it could be explained with Madara in the mix. 

Madara finds Obito, saves him, gives him Zetsu goo to survive and explains the cycle of war. Obito says he's wrong and that the cycle can be broken and seeks his friends. 

Before Obito finds them, Rin is killed. It's revealed that it was actually Madara who killed her to push Obito toward his side. Obito decides to break the cycle with the Ten Tails, gaining knowledge of it from Madara.


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## Awesome (Aug 21, 2012)

I've been saying that Madara could be alive during that time for a while now.

I still enjoy my crack theory that Madara is Nagato's father. He does look just like him, and it would explain how Nagato got the Rinnegan.


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## son_michael (Aug 21, 2012)

Easley said:


> If that is Kishimoto's explanation for all this, I give up. Yes, let's start a world war and enslave everyone in a genjutsu because one girl died.



it would be just 1 of the reasons, albeit the main trigger. Its very highly probable that he has some kind of villain in his ear feeding him lies and half truth's. Throw in genjutsu on top of that and voila instant bad guy.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 21, 2012)

As Mistshadow said Kisame definitely knew Tobi was not Madara but called him that because that's the name he used as his cover.

Heck, I think it's possible Kisame may have never learned Tobi's real name.


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## Easley (Aug 21, 2012)

son_michael said:


> it would be just 1 of the reasons, albeit the main trigger. Its very highly probable that he has some kind of villain in his ear feeding him lies and half truth's. Throw in genjutsu on top of that and voila instant bad guy.


I agree, Rin could be the catalyst, which made it easier for someone to twist his personality. Madara or Zetsu are the main culprits.

I won't like it as a reason, but at this point Obito being Tobi is fine by me. He's better than the other candidates we've argued about. I'd just like a surprise, if possible.


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## Shadow Slayer (Aug 21, 2012)

Madara had to have died in his 30-50. Edo, revives the person in question in their most recent physical state. That's why Nagato still could not walk. Itachi was still pretty much blind and Madara has no physical aging. Unless of course he hides it like Tsunade which I doubt.


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## Awesome (Aug 21, 2012)

Kabuto himself said that he revived Madara in his strongest possible state, in a state stronger than the one he died in. We don't actually know when he died because of that.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 21, 2012)

It depends on how Rin died.

Was her death random?

Did Madara do it?

Did Obito kill her?

Accidentally?

Intentionally?

Depending on how things turn out there are a lot of things Kishi could do with it.

But I agree it was probably the catalyst that started Tobi/Obito's despair spiral.


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## Shadow Slayer (Aug 21, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Kabuto himself said that he revived Madara in his strongest possible state, in a state stronger than the one he died in. We don't actually know when he died because of that.



Well, Madara also said he obtained the rinnigen shortly before his death.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Shadow Slayer said:


> Well, Madara also said he obtained the rinnigen shortly before his death.



shortly is vague though, and intentionally vague so that we would not know when he died. doesn't eliminate anything


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## Shadow Slayer (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm pretty sure Shortly would be between 3-5 years. Years are a long time. I bet money he died within 5 years of his current edo state.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Shadow Slayer said:


> I'm pretty sure Shortly would be between 3-5 years. Years are a long time. I bet money he died within 5 years of his current edo state.



Time is about perspective. Old people see years as short compared to  Young people. As well as when you think in the terms of the long run of a half a century plan. When thinking in the terms of 50-100  years. I can lose thousands of dollars in next 20 years but thats short in the long run for retirement. I'm 21. I got a  long time until retirement so 20 years is short.


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## cunananm (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm not naive, I'm cynical.


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## HakuGaara (Aug 21, 2012)

Tobi being Obito is highly highly unlikely for 3 main reasons.

1. It goes against established continuity. Tobi has been referenced multiple times throughout the manga as being far far older than Obito could ever hope to be. a listing of such references can be found here . How can Tobi be alive before Obito was born? The answer obviously, is because they're not the same person. There has yet to be a person who can refute this glaring plot-hole, at most making up completely unfounded assumptions to try and sort of make sense of it (and never really succeeding).

2. Hiding his identity. If Tobi really is Obito, there would be no reason to avoid being identified. The only person who would care is Kakashi and I don't really see Kakashi alone being a threat to Tobi. Why would Tobi go to such lengths to hide his face from the world? It's certainly not because he's Obito.

3. It's too obvious. Recent chapters and especially the latest one pretty much 'scream' Tobi is Obito! But one has to wonder, what's the point of the author keeping his face hidden if he's already telling us he's Obito? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? The obvious answer, is that it (including when the mask comes off to reveal Obito's face) is a red herring and he's not Obito at all. 



So who do I think Tobi is? I honestly don't know but after thinking about it I came up with a theory (and no, this isn't a serious theory. I would hardly be surprised if this didn't come to pass).

So one thing I was thinking about is that Tobi is an as of yet unrevealed character to the readership but who will be revealed to be a highly devote disciple of Madara's. This relationship may or may not be public knowledge.

After losing the companionship of his brother, Madara sought out a disciple. A special, lucky chosen one that get's to spend time and be personally taught by THE Madara. The disciple worshiped the ground Madara walked on and was infatuated with him.

This would explain a number of things.

- Why Tobi was upset when Kabuto showed him the sixth coffin, because seeing someone he looks up to being summoned by someone else, would obviously upset him.

- Why he pretended to be Madara.

- How he knows how to do things like summon the Kyuubi and hence why people mistook him for Madara.

- Why he's 'waited so long' to do what Madara tried to do years before (Control Kyuubi, destroy Konoha).

Take a look at this:

However Perfect Susano has demonstrated and been cited to to wield power comparable to the bijuu.

First panel - The way Madara says 'plans' makes it seem that they shared the same goal when together or at the very least knows of Tobi's goals.

However Perfect Susano has demonstrated and been cited to to wield power comparable to the bijuu.

Third panel - Again, saying 'our' plan.

6th and 7th panels - Staring off into the distance, like he's wistfully remembering a long lost acquaintance that he spent a great deal of time with.

This is also a pre-established theme in Naruto:

- You have Lee looking up to Gai so much that he tries to be exactly like him.

- Kabuto looking up to Orochimaru so much that he tried to turn into him. It's interesting to note that When Oro was sealed by Sasuke, Kabuto said he didn't know who he was anymore, which parallels perfectly with Tobi's 'I am no one" (also interesting is in the VIZ translation, Tobi and Kabuto refer to each other as 'vessels', perhaps Kabuto being a vessel for Orochimaru and Tobi being a vessel for Madara?).


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## (510)THIZZ (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I'm aware, that's why people who sprout "plotholes impossible!" are pissing me off. Those mysteries are there so we can't confirm 100%
> 
> 
> YES, that was the name, can you quote that post please.
> ...


 lame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*ObitoUchiha111 trolling >>>>>>>>>>> yours*

He really puts effort into his trolling. It's well thought out and he always has an exit strategy whenever he gets cornered. You on the other had say stuff like

"I'M NOT GONNA DISCUSS TIME TRAVEL WITH YOU" LOL. ObitoUchiha111 would have came up with something instead of just flat out running away.

Every time evidence comes up with the timeline being waaay off the obito supporters tuck tail and run lol. All trolling aside you people place Obito in all kinds of time periods that he just don't fit in. You all know this too lol. Look were all the places tobi was when obito and kakashi didn't even matter. Also look at certain events that were going on too.

*Bloody mist era/killed yagura/met teenage kisame before shamida:*

obito didn't even have a sharringan and probably wasn't even out of ninja school yet. *AND YES IT WAS THE SAME TOBI BECAUSE HE SHOWED KISAME HIS FACE AGAIN RIGHT BEFORE THE 4TH NINJA WAR.*

*2nd ninja war:*

was in diapers or wasn't born yet lol

*orochimaru went bat shit crazy because minato was selected to be the 4th hokage. He then left the village and joined akatsuki shortly after:*

This happened before obito even went out and got killed

*Minato and nagato are around the same age:*
so who was running akatsuki before obito even died? you're gonna tell me obito died and whiten two years went to go give orders to nagato and run an already half way formed akatsuki from the shadows? 

LOL only way you obito fan clubers can explain this is with time travel. Or admit that tobi is not obito and is being controlled some kind of way. LOL AT ALL THESE DIFFERENT TIMELINES BEFORE OBITO EVEN DIED OR LEFT THE LEAF VILLAGE.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

> *Bloody mist era/killed yagura/met teenage kisame before shamida:*
> 
> obito didn't even have a sharringan and probably wasn't even out of ninja school yet. *AND YES IT WAS THE SAME TOBI BECAUSE HE SHOWED KISAME HIS FACE AGAIN RIGHT BEFORE THE 4TH NINJA WAR.*
> 
> ...



Wrong.  Kisame left shortly after the meeting to be paired up with Itachi.  Itachi was 13. Kisame is 11 years older than Itachi meaning he was 24.  Even if we give "shortly" 5 years Obito would have been 17 if alive.  Obito is only 2 years younger than Kisame.  Kisame was not 50 years old but two years older than Obito/Kakashi/Zabuza.  Obito disappeared when Kisame was 15.



> *orochimaru went bat shit crazy because minato was selected to be the 4th hokage. He then left the village and joined akatsuki shortly after*
> 
> This happened before obito even went out and got killed
> 
> LOL only way you obito fan clubers can explain this is with time travel. Or admit that tobi is not obito and is being controlled some kind of way.



You make no point here.  Obviously if Obito is Tobi.  Tobi was lying about influencing Yahiko to start Akatsuki or maybe likely it was the person he was pretending to be. It's not a hard concept to assume that feats claimed as Tobi were actually Madara's doing since he was pretending to be him.

You guys say the same thing over and over no matter how many times refuted as plain out wrong.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 21, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Wrong.  Kisame left shortly after the meeting to be paired up with Itachi.  Itachi was 13. Kisame is 11 years older than Itachi meaning he was 24.  Even if we give "shortly" 5 years Obito would have been 17 if alive.  Obito is only 2 years younger than Kisame.  Kisame was not 50 years old but two years older than Obito/Kakashi/Zabuza.  Obito disappeared when Kisame was 15.
> 
> *LOL!!!!!!!! YOU REALIZE YOU JUST PROVED MY POINT RIGHT? The bloody mist started when all those people you named were kids!!!! so who was behind the mask running the bloody mist for years? it couldn't have been obito now could it?*
> 
> ...



LOL you guys are a joke man. TROLL ON!!!!!!

Oh yeah,

Don't you think it would be a little weird for a younger and much more inexperienced person(obito) to be manipulating an older, more powerful, more experienced person(nagato)? OMG!!! OMG!!! the side character that was only meant for kakashi's development is such an important character!! We have just gots to make him the final villain in the story!!! No other actual cool and powerful characters would be better than the young, weak ass uchiha who died at an early age................


----------



## NO (Aug 21, 2012)

cunananm said:


> I'm not naive, I'm cynical.


----------



## Jay. (Aug 21, 2012)

HakuGaara said:


> Tobi being Obito is highly highly unlikely for 3 main reasons.
> 
> 1. It goes against established continuity. Tobi has been referenced multiple times throughout the manga as being far far older than Obito could ever hope to be. a listing of such references can be found here . How can Tobi be alive before Obito was born? The answer obviously, is because they're not the same person. There has yet to be a person who can refute this glaring plot-hole, at most making up completely unfounded assumptions to try and sort of make sense of it (and never really succeeding).
> 
> ...


Atleast he makes since.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So, Zetsu got the eye instead of tobi, now?
> 
> And, how convenient is it that Zetsu just happened to be waltzing around during that exact mission.
> 
> ...



well of course it would be Zetsu.... you yourself inferred that it would be a plothole for Kagami to know where Obito's body was, which is true

but if it was Zetsu its not a plothole and its not an assumption, why? because Zetsu stalks battles, records them, and eats the remaining dead bodies all the time - FACT.... and because Tobi and Zetsu work together - FACT

there, i have answered your questions without making wild assumptions or fanfics for Kagami... there are simply no plotholes to defend here


unlike Obito where its *actually necessary* to make wild assumptions and fanfics because of the huge timeline plotholes involved.... such as Obito being a child when Tobi was controlling Yagura and the Bloody Mist 

but ohhh nooo fap fap... then Tobi must be more than one person!!! 





holy shit Thiz youre killing me here!!!


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

> LOL!!!!!!!! YOU REALIZE YOU JUST PROVED MY POINT RIGHT? The bloody mist started when all those people you named were kids!!!! so who was behind the mask running the bloody mist for years? it couldn't have been obito now could it?



You do realize the Bloody Mist ENDED 10 years or more before that panel when Zabuza was 9.

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE 

1.  Of when Yagura was starting to be controlled or if he started the Bloody Mist himself.
2.  If a masked man was controlling him the whole time. 

EVIDENCE!

1. A panel of Zabuza killing his whole graduation class ending Bloody Mist.
2. A decade or more later Yagura was being controlled by Tobi.

Assumption!!!  That those two events have anything to do with each other or Tobi himself was controlling him the whole time.  

Tobi knows Madara + if Obito is Tobi =  MADARA WAS ALIVE TO MEET OBITO! This means that Madara could have been controlling Yagura and Obito took over when he was 15-21 AND HE COULD HAVE BEEN THE ONE SEEN IN BOTH THE PANELS OF KISAME WITH TOBI WITHOUT A TIMELINE ISSUES!!!!


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

> It's too obvious. Recent chapters and especially the latest one pretty much 'scream' Tobi is Obito! But one has to wonder, what's the point of the author keeping his face hidden if he's already telling us he's Obito? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? The obvious answer, is that it (including when the mask comes off to reveal Obito's face) is a red herring and he's not Obito at all.



You do realize the volumes are meant to be read in 10 minutes not 10 weeks right?


----------



## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Aug 21, 2012)

All we know is that, for how strange it may sound, Tobi's been likely changing left eyes over time and yet he's kept Obito's right eye for something like 15 years.
Anyway, logically speaking, it's impossible for Tobi to be Obito unless Kishimoto doesn't want to mess with logic or has forgotten about many hints he's given in the past.

1) To begin with, Tobi seemed not to know Minato's fighting style whereas Obito, being Minato's student, should have known it well. 
2) It would sound weird if Minato, a genius, didn't recognise Obito's fighting style.
3) Time-line: We don't know how much time has passed since the end of the 3rd Shinobi War, but it's hard to believe Obito, that was supposed to have died in the war, not only did survive, but also managed to grow up that quickly.
4) Madara. The whole problem here is that we don't know how and when did Madara die, but we know for certain he knew about Nagato and Tobi and it's highly possible he knows who Tobi is.
But the fact is that Nagato, being Jiraiya's student before Minato, was born MUCH time before Obito, given that he was Minato's student! 
Now Madara has also stated he has achieved his Rinnegan just before dieing, so, given that he knew about Nagato, it's very unlikely for him to have known Obito!


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 21, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> You do realize the Bloody Mist ENDED 10 years or more before that panel when Zabuza was 9.
> 
> THERE IS NO EVIDENCE
> 
> ...


I'm just gonna assume you trolling now lol so I'm not even gonna waist time posting actual manga panels!!!!!! go back and read the manga dude

Again, you just proved my point. *WHEN KISAME AND ZABUZA WERE KIDS THEY GREW UP IN THE BLOODY MIST ERA * OBITO WASN'T EVEN DEAD YET. KISAME, THE J MAN, AND MAI ALL SAID THEY KNEW SOMEBODY WAS MAKING YAGURA DO ALL THAT SHIT and he was not himself. Back when they were little kids this was going on. This was all confirmed when tobi reviled himself to kisame holding yaguras dead body.

Last but not least, pay close attention!! Since you are asking for evidence and still assuming things. Where's your evidence of madara still being alive at that time to meet a resurrected obito? When tobi reviled himself in the mist to be controlling yagura to kisame Akatsuki was already halfway formed. So going by your assumption  of no timeline problems with the multiple major plot holes I posted. So this would mean that madara was still alive when obito attacked the leaf 2 short years after he died and came back to life? So this would mean that it was a good chance that madara actually fought minato Or did he send a crippled weak ass uchiha to take on the strongest ninja village by himself. 

So your basically saying that madara set everything up. Coached a dead weak ass uchiha that he found under some rocks to be a top tier ninja within two years to take over his operation? Also he trained him to control kurama, ordered him to destroy the place he swore to protect and then later kill his clan? 

RIDDLE ME THIS

Why would obito need to break into the uchiha secret shrine to read the tablet when he had madara to tell him everything?

lol I'm done with you. Bring on the next obito fan club troll.


----------



## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Aug 21, 2012)

Guys, the point is that Madara was probably long since dead when Obito was walking around, at least going by what Madara and Tobi's words have implied.
But it's still possible Kishimoto has forgotten that.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 21, 2012)

ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE said:


> All we know is that, for how strange it may sound, Tobi's been likely changing left eyes over time and yet he's kept Obito's right eye for something like 15 years.
> Anyway, logically speaking, it's impossible for Tobi to be Obito unless Kishimoto doesn't want to mess with logic or has forgotten about many hints he's given in the past.
> 
> 1) To begin with, Tobi seemed not to know Minato's fighting style whereas Obito, being Minato's student, should have known it well.
> ...


Lol everybody with some damn sense who's not going off *assumptions* said this already.

All the obito nut cases/trolls are gonna do is dance around it all and *ASSUME* your logic and what we've seen in the manga away. Tobi is gonna die soon anyway and madara(the one who started everything) will finally take his place as final villain. I can't wait to hear madara's ingenious plan


----------



## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't think Kishimoto'll blatantly ignore logic and reveal Obito as the man behind the mask. 
As for Tobi's spot as the final villain I don't think he will survive this fight, so I agree.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 21, 2012)

Easley said:


> If that is Kishimoto's explanation for all this, I give up. Yes, let's start a world war and enslave everyone in a genjutsu because one girl died.



worst... motive... ever



Awesome said:


> In which case Madara being alive during the battle at Kannabi Bridge literally solves all plot holes. If Kishi did go the Obito route, things would likely unfold this way.





Mistshadow said:


> And THAT is what I've been saying for over 200 chapters which various others refuse to admit such as Jacamo and Imsogettingbanned and Thebaxman.
> Makes it Very possible
> By god I think you've got it.



no that doesnt work either because Madara must have been dead by the time kid Nagato aquired Madara's Rinnegan via transplant... Madara confirms it himself when he says that he died shortly after he awakened his Rinnegan

there is no way Madara would say "shortly after" if his Rinnegan was transplanted into kid Nagato during the 2nd ninja war, but remained alive X amount of years later for the battle of the Kannabi Bridge during the 3rd ninja war


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

> LOL you guys are a joke man. TROLL ON!!!!!!
> 
> Oh yeah,
> 
> Don't you think it would be a little weird for a younger and much more inexperienced person(obito) to be manipulating an older, more powerful, more experienced person(nagato)? OMG!!! OMG!!! the side character that was only meant for kakashi's development is such an important character!! We have just gots to make him the final villain in the story!!! No other actual cool and powerful characters would be better than the young, weak ass uchiha who died at an early age................



Isn't it a bit odd for 13 year old Itachi and 15 year old Sasuke to troll Oro? Isn't a bit odd for 16 year old Naruto to solo a ninja war?  Isn't wait odd for 16 year old Gaara to Kage?  Oh wait people do things at young age in this manga.


I'm just gonna assume you trolling now lol so I'm not even gonna waist time posting actual manga panels!!!!!! go back and read the manga dude



> Again, you just proved my point. *WHEN KISAME AND ZABUZA WERE KIDS THEY GREW UP IN THE BLOODY MIST ERA * OBITO WASN'T EVEN DEAD YET. KISAME, THE J MAN, AND MAI ALL SAID THEY KNEW SOMEBODY WAS MAKING YAGURA DO ALL THAT SHIT and he was not himself. Back when they were little kids this was going on. This was all confirmed when tobi reviled himself to kisame holding yaguras dead body.



What you said SOMEBODY.  It doesn't mean it's Tobi.  Just because Tobi was controlling someone at a certain point doesn't mean he was doing it the whole time.  

Look at this.
Madara starts Bloody Mist and controls Yagura.
Bloody Mist ends with Zabuza when he's 9.
Obito takes over at age 18 after Madara dies.
22 year old Kisame is approached by Obito at age 20.
30 year old Obito shows 32 year old Kisame his face.  

It's not far fetched in a manga with 5 year olds fighting in ninja wars and teenagers being all powerful in 3 years of graduating.  



> Last but not least, pay close attention!! Since you are asking for evidence and still assuming things. Where's your evidence of madara still being alive at that time to meet a resurrected obito? When tobi reviled himself in the mist to be controlling yagura to kisame Akatsuki was already halfway formed. So going by your assumption  of no timeline problems with the multiple major plot holes I posted. So this would mean that madara was still alive when obito attacked the leaf 2 short years after he died and came back to life? So this would mean that it was a good chance that madara actually fought minato Or did he send a crippled weak ass uchiha to take on the strongest ninja village by himself.



You guy are the only ones saying something is impossible.  What I am saying is basically your reason for it being impossible are assumptions.  And Obito being weak is weak reason.  Naruto was the worst ninja in the manga and in 3 years is the top 5 in terms of raw power.  

IF Obito is Tobi than Madara would have to be alive because Kish has confirmed that Madara knows Tobi.  That's just plain common sense IF Obito is Tobi.



> So your basically saying that madara set everything up. Coached a dead weak ass uchiha that he found under some rocks to be a top tier ninja within two years to take over his operation? Also he trained him to control kurama, ordered him to destroy the place he swore to protect and then later kill his clan?
> 
> RIDDLE ME THIS
> Why would obito need to break into the uchiha secret shrine to read the tablet when he had madara to tell him everything?
> ...


Coach what up?  What powers has Tobi ever shown outside of Obito's eye or doujutsu in general?  He's a one trick pony with S/T that makes him untouchable and sharingan precognition.  Almost anyone with a brain could use those two abilities and powerful.  That's all Tobi is.  He's displayed little else.  

Riddle me this.  Why would Izuna or Elder son or Kagami need to see the shrine?  We can at least see that Obito was a kid and likely like Sasuke to have never seen the secret shrine.  But why would clan elders never have seen it?


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 21, 2012)

ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE said:


> I don't think Kishimoto'll blatantly ignore logic and reveal Obito as the man behind the mask.
> As for Tobi's spot as the final villain I don't think he will survive this fight, so I agree.


Man this was a great discussion from page 1 - 10. After that it became a big troll fest(obito fan club). Right now I'm here just fucking with them 

One thing that's really tripping me out is that conversation tobi had with zetsu. They were talking like they were old friends from back in the day. Also we still don't know too much of anything about zetsu. He's been around since the valley of the end fight. He also was the 1st akatsuki member that we seen. Hell, we still don't know if black zetsu is dead yet.


----------



## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Aug 21, 2012)

Unluckly I've not read the first ten pages, but now I've managed to read the main points brought by jacamo and it amazes me people are still saying Tobi can be Obito.
What is really curious is that Tobi - whoever he may be - has been spying shinobis all the time and it's quite impressive if we consider that it's very unlikely for him not to be an old man(also, we have seen wrinkles on his face) and he knew Obito's eye had a particular ability, to the point he's chosen THAT eye and has kept it all the time.
And given that he's an old man one could wonder what are his real abilities, given that both his Rinnegan and Sharingan's skills belong to other people. 
I wouldn't exclude that he may have been a medical nin as he seems to have great physical strenght - that is possibly guaranteed by great chakra control - and has some regenerating skills linked to Zetsu.
Also, the fact he's perfectly transplanted eyes without having great drawbacks could be seen as a prove of him either having a particul chakra or him being a medical nin


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 21, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Isn't it a bit odd for 13 year old Itachi and 15 year old Sasuke to troll Oro? Isn't a bit odd for 16 year old Naruto to solo a ninja war?  Isn't wait odd for 16 year old Gaara to Kage?  Oh wait people do things at young age in this manga.
> 
> 
> I'm just gonna assume you trolling now lol so I'm not even gonna waist time posting actual manga panels!!!!!! go back and read the manga dude
> ...


LOL dude!!! this is seriously my last post to you. It's like you just skipped through the manga or some shit. Or you're just trolling. If you are just trolling I'll play along this one last time

Tobi is a one trick pony huh?
However Perfect Susano has demonstrated and been cited to to wield power comparable to the bijuu.
However Perfect Susano has demonstrated and been cited to to wield power comparable to the bijuu.
However Perfect Susano has demonstrated and been cited to to wield power comparable to the bijuu.

As for why the others would need to go back and read the tablet I already explained that earlier to another obito fan troll. To read all of the tablet with nagato's rinnegan. I don't recall any of them having E.M.S or the rinnegan themselves. 



jacamo said:


> worst... motive... ever
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol according to Raventhal *ASSUMPTION* above Madara was still alive all the way up into the point of kurama's attack So that we all read in the manga can't be true and madara is lying...................


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> LOL dude!!! this is seriously my last post to you. It's like you just skipped through the manga or some shit. Or you're just trolling. If you are just trolling I'll play along this one last time
> 
> Tobi is a one trick pony huh?
> However Perfect Susano has demonstrated and been cited to to wield power comparable to the bijuu.
> ...



1. You are the one troll or simply not listening.

2. 90 percent of Tobi is the his doujutsu or based around his doujutsu.  

3. If that's the case why wouldn't Obito have done the same with Nagato?  Obito has more reason to need to the secret tablet than any other Uchiha suspects.

4. I said IF Obito is Tobi than Madara had to be alive because Kish said Madara knows Tobi.  

Key word POSSIBLE  

Again, I am saying that nothing is solid enough to prove or disprove Obito.  But recent chapters can lead you to believe it certainly.  Again I am just stating things that are again...  POSSIBLE.  Not canon as you guys claim with Obito being impossible.


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 21, 2012)

ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE said:


> Unluckly I've not read the first ten pages, but now I've managed to read the main points brought by jacamo and it amazes me people are still saying Tobi can be Obito.
> What is really curious is that Tobi - whoever he may be - has been spying shinobis all the time and it's quite impressive if we consider that it's very unlikely for him not to be an old man(also, we have seen wrinkles on his face) and he knew Obito's eye had a particular ability, to the point he's chosen THAT eye and has kept it all the time.
> And given that he's an old man one could wonder what are his real abilities, given that both his Rinnegan and Sharingan's skills belong to other people.
> I wouldn't exclude that he may have been a medical nin as he seems to have great physical strenght - that is possibly guaranteed by great chakra control - and has some regenerating skills linked to Zetsu.
> Also, the fact he's perfectly transplanted eyes without having great drawbacks could be seen as a prove of him either having a particul chakra or him being a medical nin


I was wondering about that too. Also i'm still tripping off when he blocked zabuza's blade like it was nothing with his arm. We haven't seen him tank a hit like that ever since. What's with him wanting to watch battles and zetzu recording shit? lol

Him being aged has already been discussed. His knowledge of the ninja world rivals the elders of the narutoverse. He knows top secret info from pretty much every village(old and new info). He knows pretty much everybody old, adult, and even the youngsters. He knows things about the leaf kakshi doesn't even know. Kakashi is a big deal in the village so he should know a lot. So this leads me to believe this is someone who had some type of position in the village who's up there in age like late 40s - early 50's. It has to be someone like that who knows the ins and outs of the village. 

*How did tobi know that the elders ordered itachi to kill the uchiha clan?* This is why I suspected kagami at one point. Everybody who runs the village or is in a important position at the time was in danzo and hirizen's squad. The only person missing is kagami!!! wtf happened to him? why did they even bother to mention his name? is he dead or alive?


----------



## (510)THIZZ (Aug 21, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> 1. You are the one troll or simply not listening.
> 
> 2. 90 percent of Tobi is the his doujutsu or based around his doujutsu.
> 
> ...


lol I clearly understood you from the jump. I don't think you understood me though. I wasn't going off *assumptions* or *possibilities.* I was simply going off what has been seen in the manga. I just gathered up facts from the manga that we all read and laid it all out. It shows that for obito to be tobi he would have to be a time traveler or somebody has to be controlling his crushed body some kind of way 

I don't want to hear about that soul transfer shit either. Because that would make lord orochimaru look like nothing lol.

so I want have to keep repeating myself


----------



## jacamo (Aug 21, 2012)

ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE said:


> Unluckly I've not read the first ten pages, but now I've managed to read the main points brought by jacamo and it amazes me people are still saying Tobi can be Obito.
> What is really curious is that Tobi - whoever he may be - has been spying shinobis all the time and it's quite impressive if we consider that it's very unlikely for him not to be an old man(also, we have seen wrinkles on his face) and he knew Obito's eye had a particular ability, to the point he's chosen THAT eye and has kept it all the time.
> And given that he's an old man one could wonder what are his real abilities, given that both his Rinnegan and Sharingan's skills belong to other people.
> I wouldn't exclude that he may have been a medical nin as he seems to have great physical strenght - that is possibly guaranteed by great chakra control - and has some regenerating skills linked to Zetsu.
> Also, the fact he's perfectly transplanted eyes without having great drawbacks could be seen as a prove of him either having a particul chakra or him being a medical nin



:ho



(510)THIZZ said:


> lol according to Raventhal *ASSUMPTION* above Madara was still alive all the way up into the point of kurama's attack So that we all read in the manga can't be true and madara is lying...................



they have been willing to say *ANYTHING* for over 200 pages now 



Raventhal said:


> Again, I am saying that nothing is solid enough to prove or disprove Obito.  But recent chapters can lead you to believe it certainly.  Again I am just stating things that are again...  POSSIBLE.  Not canon as you guys claim with Obito being impossible.



youre tripping balls 

there is plenty of evidence solid enough to disprove Obito

unless you want to say time travel   and if its just Obito's body or just his Sharingan then its not 100% Obito which you have been claiming


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

(510)THIZZ said:


> lol I clearly understood you from the jump. I don't think you understood me though. I wasn't going off *assumptions* or *possibilities.* I was simply going off what has been seen in the manga. I just gathered up facts from the manga that we all read and laid it all out. It shows that for obito to be tobi he would have to be a time traveler or somebody has to be controlling his crushed body some kind of way
> 
> I don't want to hear about that soul transfer shit either. Because that would make lord orochimaru look like nothing lol.
> 
> so I want have to keep repeating myself



And what I am saying is that I disagree.  A lot of the timeline issues are assuptions/vague/opinions.

The Tobi must have controlled the whole bloody mist is an opinion and assumption.  There are no panels that PROVE that he controlled Yagura beyond a time when Obito had already been crushed.  SOMEBODY does not mean TOBI 100% proven.  Again a vague SOMEBODY and a panel TEN YEARS after the fact do not prove TOBI controlled Yagura during the BLOODY MIST. 

Madara died years ago is an ASSUMPTION.  There are no panels that say when or show when Madara DIED.  It is possible for Madara with SENJU DNA survived beyond what's ASSUMED.  Tobi's statements that he gave Nagato HIS eyes is not CANON because Tobi was lying in pretending to be Madara and there is a PANEL of Nagato awakening his eyes that is enough to create reasonable doubt.  

Questioning POWER GAINS in this manga are silly.  We have example after example of characters drastically increasing power from MS/SM/BM/Sharingans/Rinnegans whatever and young characters 5-16 that are all powerful.  Why is Obito who's eye Tobi is using any different?


----------



## Escargon (Aug 21, 2012)

Dude, theres a reason why Tobi said that his clone was not alive at the moment when he went around his base with Kabuto. I think thats a key to his identity.



*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

jacamo said:


> :ho
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh right because everything you say is right and all other opinions are wrong.  Hail Jacamo king of plot holes.  All must agree and bow down!


----------



## jacamo (Aug 21, 2012)

the timeline issues are not assumptions... many others have shown you with multiple examples why they arent assumptions, supported by manga panels

but dont worry... the Tardis will come to your rescue


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

jacamo said:


> the timeline issues are not assumptions... many others have shown you with multiple examples why they arent assumptions, supported by manga panels
> 
> but dont worry... the Tardis will come to your rescue



Again. There are oddities all over with Tobi.  

Does that mean that he's Madara because he was shown Madara in a coffin by Kabuto and then proceeded to contiued pretend to be Madara to the readers right in front of Kabuto .0005 seconds later?  

Does it mean he's goofy Tobi because he was goofy in front of only Zetsu who's his right hand man?

Lack of Minato knowledge of the FTG is dumb no matter who Tobi is.  Minato solo'd a freaking war with FTG.  You mean the person who could get secret intel on Kushina being preggers couldn't get any on the Hokage's trump card he spammed across a war?

It's Kish writing style to be cheap to make us think Tobi is something despite it not making sense.


----------



## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

YellowSennin said:


> Haha, and from that ambiguous statement you came to the conclusion that Kishi must never go back on his words, nor can he change Tobi's identity? Get real.


For someone who plans pretty much the whole manga out from the beginning, then yes, that interview is very conclusive. Kishi doesn't give a darn if you think it's too obvious. He does what fits the plot best. He aims at the casual fan, to whom, Tobi being Obito would come as quite a satisfying surprise. Remember, these chapters are meant to be read in 10 chapter volumes all at once. Tobi's identity has been set from the start and has never changed. Deal with it.



Easley said:


> If that is Kishimoto's explanation for all this, I give up. Yes, let's start a world war and enslave everyone in a genjutsu because one girl died.


When you say it like that, it's quite easy to dismiss it. But you're not looking into exactly what it could entail. I'm going to make a post on that.



jacamo said:


> but ohhh nooo fap fap... then Tobi must be more than one person!!!


I don't recall anyone here claiming that Tobi was more than one person. It wouldn't make any sense.



(510)THIZZ said:


> I'm just gonna assume you trolling now lol so I'm not even gonna waist time posting actual manga panels!!!!!! go back and read the manga dude
> 
> Again, you just proved my point. *WHEN KISAME AND ZABUZA WERE KIDS THEY GREW UP IN THE BLOODY MIST ERA * OBITO WASN'T EVEN DEAD YET. KISAME, THE J MAN, AND MAI ALL SAID THEY KNEW SOMEBODY WAS MAKING YAGURA DO ALL THAT SHIT and he was not himself. Back when they were little kids this was going on. This was all confirmed when tobi reviled himself to kisame holding yaguras dead body.
> 
> ...


Do you call everyone who disagrees with you a troll? Grow up. Stop typing your posts like you're insane. What would you do if he DID turn out to be Obito?



jacamo said:


> worst... motive... ever


No it's not. As I'm going to explain in a post soon. Also, aren't you the one saying that Kagami's just butthurt because of Obito's death? Why is it that Obito's "death" was explained and Rin's wasn't? Also, according to your logic, Kagami had to have made plans with Madara far before the battle of Kannabi Bridge, so it's a major hole in your theory for Kagami to only change right after Obito's death. Your theory destroys itself.


----------



## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

IT'S TIME FOR A FANFIC!

Alright, so in this "fanfic", I'm going to go over Obito's motive.

Obito loved Rin and gave his birthright to Kakashi and asked him to protect her. Kakashi, as we know, broke his promise pretty soon after. If Tobi is Obito, then logically, the latest and most probable time Rin's death could have occurred is a day or two after Gaiden. I know it seems rushed but again, Rin's death is a huge mystery and we have absolutely no clues as to what could have happened, only that it was unexpected. Now, this alone could put Obito in a pit of sadness and anger, especially because this was all caused by war. Now, Madara, seeing how much obito resembled his brother (as there are ALOT of similarities between Obito and Izuna), could have taken Obito in and trained him. It's even possible that Madara killed Rin after Obito told him about what had recently happened. Oh, I forgot to mention my theory on how Obito escaped the boulders. He was in the right position for his MS to activate, so he could have phased out of the boulders, not yet used to his new powers. So, Obito, feeling betrayed that Kakashi broke his promise so soon, was naturally very angry, now if Madara got Obito to trust him because he saved his life and took him in, Madara may have killed Rin, then told Obito about how Infinite Tsukuyomi could prevent reality from moving forward and any more deaths and wars from occurring. he also told him about himself and his past, giving him a hatred for the Senju and the Uchiha. Now it's possible that the Uchiha treated Obito like an outcast because he wasn't strong enough. So, hearing Madara's story could have really made him hate them. It's even possible that Madara told him the Uchiha were responsible for Rin's death. I mean, Tobi mindfucked Sasuke and made him like this. There's no doubt that Madara could do that to Obito under the right circumstances. So, from then on, Madara trained Obito, and then on the night of Naruto's birth, Obito attacked Konoha, and the rest is history.


----------



## Anonymouse (Aug 21, 2012)

There's a lot more evidence to disprove Obito than there is to disprove Kagami, Izuna, or even Ichiraku.

The Obitards don't care, though.



> I don't recall anyone here claiming that Tobi was more than one person. It wouldn't make any sense.



You need to read more. Every single theory involving Obito relies on one of two things:
Tobi was more than 1 person over the years.
OR
Tobi can time travel.

Pick whichever is less ridiculous to you.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No it's not. As I'm going to explain in a post soon. Also, aren't you the one saying that Kagami's just butthurt because of Obito's death? Why is it that Obito's "death" was explained and Rin's wasn't? Also, according to your logic, Kagami had to have made plans with Madara far before the battle of Kannabi Bridge, so it's a major hole in your theory for Kagami to only change right after Obito's death. Your theory destroys itself.



its perfectly plausible for Kagami and Madara to have conspired and made plans.... they both co-existed during the same era (which includes pre-Konoha) and they are only separated by 1 generation

no plothole there... as i said before the timeline fits perfectly

so if Hashirama/Tobirama trained Hiruzen, Homura and Koharu.... then its perfectly plausible for Madara to have trained Kagami




Anonymouse said:


> There's a lot more evidence to disprove Obito than there is to disprove Kagami, Izuna, or even Ichiraku.
> 
> The Obitards don't care, though.
> 
> ...


----------



## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> There's a lot more evidence to disprove Obito than there is to disprove Kagami, Izuna, or even Ichiraku.


Have you seriously deluded yourself into thinking that?



> You need to read more. Every single theory involving Obito relies on one of two things:
> Tobi was more than 1 person over the years.
> OR
> Tobi can time travel.
> ...


I haven't seen anyone bring either of those two possibilities up. in fact, they don't even need to be brought up.



jacamo said:


> its perfectly plausible for Kagami and Madara to have conspired and made plans.... they both co-existed during the same era (which includes pre-Konoha) and they are only separated by 1 generation
> 
> no plothole there... as i said before the timeline fits perfectly
> 
> so if Hashirama/Tobirama trained Hiruzen, Homura and Koharu.... then its perfectly plausible for Madara to have trained Kagami


You completely missed the point. Why would Kagami conspire with Madara, turn good again, then change back when Obito died?

Also, Kagami is connected to NO ONE important. There's no way he'd be FV, or even a major villain in general...


----------



## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

Still waiting for an explanation on why Rin's death hasn't been explained yet.

Anyone?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> There's a lot more evidence to disprove Obito than there is to disprove Kagami, Izuna, or even Ichiraku.
> 
> The Obitards don't care, though.
> 
> ...



What you don't realize is that dirt thrown on the trail of Obito makes it even more likely that it's Obito because almost all hints go to him.  My opinion of course.

And you are wrong I never say that Tobi is more than one person or time traveled.  Its very easy to give a timeline that involves only Obito without breaking manga timeline.  It's almost time for the unvieling and people have laid out there evidence so it's just time to wait people.


----------



## Jay. (Aug 21, 2012)

Tobi is confirmed for Doton user. Obito was killed by rocks. Hmmmmmm


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE said:


> Unluckly I've not read the first ten pages, but now I've managed to read the main points brought by jacamo and it amazes me people are still saying Tobi can be Obito.



lol you must be new here, he isn't exactly the most credible, but likely one of the worst posters in this thread. I'm sorry go back and read from the beginning of this thread and you will understand,  or at the very least just search and read my posts in here. I'm tired of repeating myself and at this point I have him on ignore



Mistshadow said:


> Okay So I decided to have a little fun and show everyone each line the narrowed down identities lines have had in this manga.
> * Now tell me who seems most likely*
> 
> Kagami: "Impossible, in a situation like this all we can do is send someone as bait to get their attention"
> ...


----------



## jacamo (Aug 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You completely missed the point. Why would Kagami conspire with Madara, turn good again, then change back when Obito died?
> 
> Also, Kagami is connected to NO ONE important. There's no way he'd be FV, or even a major villain in general...



i think you are missing the point... why do you assume Kagami turned good in the first place? if he conspired with Madara then it means he was always loyal

omg we agree... i dont think Tobi/Kagami is Final Villain either



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Still waiting for an explanation on why Rin's death hasn't been explained yet.
> 
> Anyone?







Mistshadow said:


> lol you must be new here, he isn't exactly the most credible, but likely one of the worst posters in this thread. I'm sorry go back and read from the beginning of this thread and you will understand,  or at the very least just search and read my posts in here. I'm tired of repeating myself and at this point I have him on ignore



ive never insulted you, but youve insulted me how many times now?


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Yes, that's right.







I'm baaaaacckkkkk.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Did some math. Approximately 10 years is the time between two points in  the 2nd and 3rd shinobi world war. Which can easily be considered short for Madara who A. thinks in the long term of plans and B. is old in and of itself.

Math if anyone wants to see: 
Sasori was 5 when he lost his parents in 2nd war and chiyo began teaching him to make puppets
Sasori was 15 when he left Suna and took 3rd kazekage beginning the 3rd world war.
(Sasori is 35 currently)

15-5=10

And if you want to argue that it is impossible to say 10 CAN be considered short, then you have a major problem in your head and have never actually planned something in the long run.

The ENTIRE basis on your argument of the timeline not working, proved null and void with the possibility of MADARA being alive and DOING a lot of what you define as 'plot hole'

-edit-


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Did some math. Approximately 10 years is the time between two points in  the 2nd and 3rd shinobi world war. Which can easily be considered short for Madara who A. thinks in the long term of plans and B. is old in and of itself.
> 
> Math if anyone wants to see:
> Sasori was 5 when he lost his parents in 2nd war and chiyo began teaching him to make puppets
> ...



Lawl.
You're still going? 

People just don't get it...


Yeah, if Madara was so involved in his plan, which easily could have taken 10-20 years to complete, it's not far off for him to consider that a short period of time.

If Tobi is Obito, theres a pretty good theoretical timeline, depending on Nagatos birth in relation to Obito's age.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Lawl.
> You're still going?
> 
> People just don't get it...
> ...



Well keep in mind Madara has had this plan since at least the VOTE, so lets give it a 60 year plan in the making. 10 years is barely a scratch of 60.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Well keep in mind Madara has had this plan since at least the VOTE, so lets give it a 60 year plan in the making. 10 years is barely a scratch of 60.



Damn right.
If Madara is this all powerful tactician, 10 years is nothing.
Was Nagato born when Obito was alive? 
I have a theory but I'm not sure on the details.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Damn right.
> If Madara is this all powerful tactician, 10 years is nothing.
> Was Nagato born when Obito was alive?
> I have a theory but I'm not sure on the details.



Nagato is older than Obito. Nagato is apprixmately Minato's age if a little older by a couple years.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Nagato is older than Obito. Nagato is apprixmately Minato's age if a little older by a couple years.



There goes my original theory...


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

nbd, there are many others out there. Nagato's age is actually the biggest reason they try to scream plot hole about Tobi giving the rinnegan to nagato. But if we were to believe Tobi did it 100% with certain, we would also have to believe Tobi was Madara, he fought Hashirama at vote, he faked his death there, and he looked to the future at that point and stole hashirama's power. Which we know he DIDNT.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> nbd, there are many others out there. Nagato's age is actually the biggest reason they try to scream plot hole about Tobi giving the rinnegan to nagato. But if we were to believe Tobi did it 100% with certain, we would also have to believe Tobi was Madara, he fought Hashirama at vote, he faked his death there, and he looked to the future at that point and stole hashirama's power. Which we know he DIDNT.



That's true.
What I was thinking, Madara faked his death at VOTE. 
Gave his rinnegan to Nagato seeing hope in him realizing he couldn't do it on his own. 
Started watching Obito for some reason, and then trained him when he was pinned by the rock.

The plotholes to this are Madara being blind, and why he'd have interest in Obito.


Unless....Izuna-Kagami-Obito or Madara-Kagami-Obito. XD


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> That's true.
> What I was thinking, Madara faked his death at VOTE.
> Gave his rinnegan to Nagato seeing hope in him realizing he couldn't do it on his own.
> Started watching Obito for some reason, and then trained him when he was pinned by the rock.
> ...



Pretty much what the theory entails. As for Madara being blind, you can live after being blind, look at Izuna he lived for a good amount of time before dying on the battlefield when blind, or he could have implanted a new pair of sharingans, I'm sure that sharingan stock once belonged to Madara before going to Tobi as was that Hashirama flesh clone. 

Doesn't necessarily have to have been watching Obito. There are countless possibilities. Maybe he was watching and saved him, or maybe zetsu was wandering and saved him, or maybe obito's ms spontaneous activated and he teleported close to him or zetsu, or Madara also has some sort of access to that pocket dimension and met him there by coincidence. Countless possibilities to explain that 'hole'.

Madara training Obito would explain so much such as how he knows so much about the history, how he is able to tame the fox so easily, how he could pretend to be madara and fool people along with taking credit for his deeds, how he became so powerful, and how he knows of the plan and wants to enact the plan.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Pretty much what the theory entails. As for Madara being blind, you can live after being blind, look at Izuna he lived for a good amount of time before dying on the battlefield when blind, or he could have implanted a new pair of sharingans, I'm sure that sharingan stock once belonged to Madara before going to Tobi as was that Hashirama flesh clone.
> 
> Doesn't necessarily have to have been watching Obito. There are countless possibilities. Maybe he was watching and saved him, or maybe zetsu was wandering and saved him, or maybe obito's ms spontaneous activated and he teleported close to him or zetsu, or Madara also has some sort of access to that pocket dimension and met him there by coincidence. Countless possibilities to explain that 'hole'.



Alright, what about this.

Madara was getting old. He gave rinnegan to Nagato.
He waited for Nagato to grow up.
Meanwhile he had eyes on a backup plan, or Obito.

When Obito was pinned by the rock, Madara came and fed him BS causing him to activate his sharingan sparking a load of new interest in Madara. 
So, Madara, in his old age trained Obito and told him everything that he thought. Also about how people even claiming to be your best friends would betray you. 
Hashirama-Kakashi
Obito started to believe him with Rin being the trigger to change his mind completely.

Considering they said when Kakashi got Obito's eye, he took a part with him, what if that's why Obito feels empty now, or a shell of his former self.
Half of his personality is gone...


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't see the eye containing half his personality working.

But the rest is 100% a plausible outline and possibility, I have my own version but it's pretty damn long and its in the previous tobi thread. I'll go find it in a big. But well done you are starting to get the hang of how stuff can be done and why it wouldn't be a plot hole. If we can do it, so can Kishi.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I don't see the eye containing half his personality working.
> 
> But the rest is 100% a plausible outline and possibility, I have my own version but it's pretty damn long and its in the previous tobi thread. I'll go find it in a big. But well done you are starting to get the hang of how stuff can be done and why it wouldn't be a plot hole. If we can do it, so can Kishi.



I've always kind of had eyes on Obito.
There were always three points holding me back.

1.Power
2.Attitude
3.Age

Also, the eye thing is more of a symbolic gesture than literal one.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I state it because its true. You believe that anything is possible with a character, then turn around and say possibilities can't be used on another. when ALL said possible explanations are just what they are, POSSIBLE explanations. and all you do is say no no no no it can't be plot hole no no no no. There is ZERO cement of evidence to negate anyone at this point.



last time i checked, im allowed to think certain scenarios are impossible as long as i backed up my argument... which i have done with manga panels

just because you support Obito... just because ive done a damn good job of highlighting the plotholes... just because you disagree... *youre allowed to insult me everytime you see me? *and youre questioning my credibility? 

who the hell do you think you are? what kind of attitude is that?

ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE doesnt know me, he agreed with me... but you go "oh he isnt credible..." *who the hell do you think you are Misty?* 



Fureikusu Kira said:


> Damn right.
> If Madara is this all powerful tactician, 10 years is nothing.
> Was Nagato born when Obito was alive?
> I have a theory but I'm not sure on the details.



Nagato is around 10 years older than Obito

its a plothole that can ONLY be explained with guesswork... they are *assuming *Madara did everything otherwise their Obito theory falls flat on its face


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Alright, now let's chill out.


We'll just explain our opinions simply here and come to an understanding.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 21, 2012)

Obito gave Nagato the rinnegans after he got crushed by that stone. The fucking scroll will tell us the truth.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Escargon said:


> Obito gave Nagato the rinnegans after he got crushed by that stone. The fucking scroll will tell us the truth.



That makes no sense/ -____-


----------



## jacamo (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> Alright, now let's chill out.
> 
> 
> We'll just explain our opinions simply here and come to an understanding.



ha... you havent been here for long so you dont know

Misty here literally insults me everytime, but i havent, not once... and he questions my credibility?  talk about insecurity


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

jacamo said:


> ha... you havent been here for long so you dont know
> 
> Misty here literally insults me everytime, but i havent, not once... and he questions my credibility?  talk about insecurity



lol, I've been here.
Just haven't said anything until now.

I was viewing.

Let's come up with some good ideas now.

Tobi is Obito why?
Tobi is NOT Obito why?

GO!


----------



## Escargon (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> That makes no sense/ -____-





*Spoiler*: __ 










Or did Obito get the rinnegans BEFORE the gaiden? That makes more sense.

Tobi is some random man collecting DNA and following Kabutos life. Like that dr that created Cell.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Nagato is around 10 years older than Obito
> 
> *its a plothole that can ONLY be explained with guesswork... they are assuming Madara did everything otherwise their Obito theory falls flat on its face*



Me? I'm pretty Awesome, that's who I am.

Yeah and Tobi also fought Hashirama at VOTE, You got me!


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> That's true.
> What I was thinking, Madara faked his death at VOTE.
> Gave his rinnegan to Nagato seeing hope in him realizing he couldn't do it on his own.
> Started watching Obito for some reason, and then trained him when he was pinned by the rock.
> ...



There are alternatives such as Nagato being Madara's son and he really awakened his eyes or Madara giving Nagato regular Uchiha eyes that when awakened in Uzumaki/Senji turn into Rinnegan or he litteral gave Nagato his old blind set of MS eyes.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> There are alternatives such as Nagato being Madara's son and he really awakened his eyes or Madara giving Nagato regular Uchiha eyes that when awakened in Uzumaki/Senji turn into Rinnegan or he litteral gave Nagato his old blind set of MS eyes.



That too.
I'm leaning more toward the old set being repaired by Senju DNA.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

> its a plothole that can ONLY be explained with guesswork... they are assuming Madara did everything otherwise their Obito theory falls flat on its face



Lol, of couse it's required for Madara to do everything before Obito disappeared.  Kish has said that Madara knows Tobi.  If you consider an Obito theory, which you simply can't because you have the flexibility of diamond, you have to take that Madara would be alive into account.  But basic logic is left behind by radical disbelief in Obito theories you won't consider anything outside your opinions that you call plot holes.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Collection of many of mine and a few others Valid posts that will catch all new comers to the debate, and the valid points for and against, Read, and tell me what you personally think:

Also this first Quote is my detailed theory on the timeline:


*Spoiler*: __ 





> OKAY! Anyways, Here is the TObito Theory I have come up with, you can quote me on it for future sake. There are NO plot holes, you can try and find one, go ahead, As I have said this is merely a POSSIBILITY, a THEORY. Not 100%,Not Canon, but plausible none the less.
> * means irrelevent, possible, but doesn't MATTER whether it happened or not.
> 
> I will start off at the VOTE Fight where we know a lot of this begins.
> ...







*Spoiler*: __ 





> and even if he did give nagato HIS rinnegan, not impossible for him to have lived after the fact and replaced with regular sharingans in meantime or trained obito while he was blind. Izuna lived for some time after he lost HIS eyes. Died in battle.
> 
> Madara could have looked at it as planning ahead giving his eyes to someone who can use them to resurrect him later.
> 
> All of these are possibilities, nothing says its impossible for tobi to be obito.







*Spoiler*: __ 





> A: Fought Minato, could have gotten strong after being trained by Madara one of the strongest characters in series. His S/T Sharingan is very useful.
> 
> B: Controlled kyuubi because MAYBE, just MAYBE he learned how to by the MAN WHO MADE IT HIS PET.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Part 2 is here:


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Its not a matter of "he lies" though for obito theory, Its more a matter of him stating true things that MADARA did and taking on that persona for people to believe him. And to keep his identity a secret he still kept on with the history of being from that time because Kabuto may have known he wasn't Madara, but still didn't know exactly WHO he was. Even now we know Tobi isn't Madara, but he is keeping the mask on because he doesn't WANT people to know who he is or them guessing.
> So yes, many of those plot holes aren't necessarily lies, but rather taking credit for Madara. Which he could easily have learned from Madara himself when being trained by him.
> So how old Tobi is is a mystery, which is what makes it possible for him to be Obito.
> Kisame didn't meet Tobi until AFTER the Kyuubi attack when we already know he existed. And he broke the Mind Reading Jutsu for a reason, because his face ISNT Madara but rather someone Aoba would recognize. Aoba is in the same age range as Kakashi and Gai, so it would be natural for him to know who Obito was also. Thus the reason for his face being so important. It wouldn't be a big deal for Konoha Ninja's to see Izuna Kagami or a Zetsu Cloned Madara. BUT it IS a big deal for it to be Obito, a former comrade in arms.







*Spoiler*: __ 





> For Obito theory, there are possible explanations:
> 
> 1- He was saved by Madara and LIVED because of the Zetsu goo body parts, we've already seen Tobi heal himself and replace parts in minutes with them.
> 
> ...







*Spoiler*: __ 





> Trust me there's a lot more to it as well as more possibilities for obito being tobi, I just decided to type it all in one go because I'm sick of people bringing up the same points over and over again that ARENT PLOT HOLES. They don't see there are plenty of possibilities.
> 
> I used to have one for Izuna as well as Kagami as well as Fugaku and Madara clone with own brain. But they have slowly but surely been losing credibilty with manga evidence showing up and supporting connectin with kakashi and negating their existence.
> 
> ...







*Spoiler*: __ 





> Another possibility is that time flows different in that pocket dimension Tobi teleports through. So as Obito was about to die, his MS spontaneously awoken with his new friendship with Kakashi or about to die. And he teleported to the dimension and couldn't get out. Madara may have found his way through it, and trained him for a LONG time there thus supplanting that '2 years got super powerful' garbage and 'waited a long time'.






*Spoiler*: __ 






> A: Love how these ARENT facts.
> B: For all we know Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan during the 2nd Ninja War and kept tabs on his whereabouts.
> C: As for spurring Yahiko to form Akatsuki, this also could have easily been done by Madara.
> To dismiss this POSSIBILITY would mean that you also believe that Tobi fought Hashirama at the VOTE, took his flesh during said battle, and faked his death...........Which we know were all actions by Madara. And all said in the same 2 chapters back to back. So no you can not discount it.
> ...








*Spoiler*: __ 





> OK guys I'm going to give you TWO options and you pick the one that makes the MOST logical sense.
> The eye came from Obito=FACT
> 
> Now first option: Was someone watching Kakashi and Obito the WHOLE time during this mission of the war, and during all missions of the war. Figured out that Obito's TWO tomoe sharingan which was nothing special would provide S/T jutsus. And thus decided to wait for him to die to steal so no one would notice. This someone who had no special S/T jutsu. How would he know it was special. Then said character TRAINED that sharingan to MS mode and was like "WOAH I GOT s/t now to use to get kyuubi"
> ...







*Spoiler*: __ 





> He's going to have to explain the same things for any and all characters.
> 
> Kagami: Empty slate, has to explain EVERYTHING from personality, to connections, to abilities, to why he was spying on Kakashi and Obito, to why he went rogue and how no one notice him go rogue. How his body is messed up.
> 
> ...







*Spoiler*: __ 





> BECAUSE IF YOU USE THE RINNEGAN YOU ARE A RIKUDOU.
> IF YOU DONT YOU ARE NOT A RIKUDOU.
> 
> Thusssssssss,
> ...







*Spoiler*: __ 





> Just to negate those reasons for completion sake showing they don't make or break anything
> 1. Not in charge whole bloody mist era
> 2. nagato example happened in a day, traumatic event of near death and damage cause people to change, brainwash by Madara's words and story(look at sasuke being talked to by Tobi)
> 3. How do you know he didn't know, maybe he did
> ...


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Part 3 is here



*Spoiler*: __ 





First Tsurugi said:


> Alright, I've been meaning to post something like this for a while.
> 
> Let me toss in another reason why Tobi being Obito is the only theory that makes sense.
> 
> ...







*Spoiler*: __ 





Fureikusu Kira said:


> Okay, so after reading the raw scan.
> I've noticed three things.
> Tobi speaks with katakana, in some words.
> Katakana is usually used for english words, or sounds.
> ...





Mistshadow said:


> Thankyou, but for the "you" referring to Obito's eye, it would make more sense to say "that" or "it". Which is why that "you" seems more likely to be referring to Obito







*Spoiler*: __ 





Mistshadow said:


> Okay So I decided to have a little fun and show everyone each line the narrowed down identities lines have had in this manga.
> * Now tell me who seems most likely*
> 
> Kagami: "Impossible, in a situation like this all we can do is send someone as bait to get their attention"
> ...







If newcomers, and even some of you older ones take your time to read all these, then we WONT have to be repeating circles and circles, since all the counters are already there. Yes its long, but it beats reading 150 pages of circle arguments.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> That too.
> I'm leaning more toward the old set being repaired by Senju DNA.



There is also the possibility that Nagato's rinnegan are totally unrelated and Madara just found out.  

I am interested to know that if you are ressed by the Rinnegan do you come back in your death state healed like EDO regardless if you body is looted like Itachi having his eyes.

Or your current state of your body healed.  For example if someone takes your eyes you are brought back without your eyes but healed.  

If you could bring people back fully whole after looting their bodies you could clone eyes with the king of hell.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Sorry, I would have made some quotes of Jacamo and Thebaxman and Jay and Thizz, but I honestly can't review the awful logic again


----------



## Awesome (Aug 21, 2012)

Jay was just trolling. Don't mind him


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 21, 2012)

I can't believe we're actually going to fill up _*another*_ thread.

This place moves stupidly fast.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

lmao, Jay.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

I think I won the thread there XD XD XD XD XD XD 

edit: I would have posted ObitoUchiha stuff too, but he mostly repeats what I say, So I only needed to say my stuff =p=p=p lol so don't think I left you out bro

edit2: Watch disbelievers say nothing but, THATS AN ASSUMPTION YOU CANT ASSUME THINGS or FANFICTION STOP IT YO


----------



## jacamo (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Me? I'm pretty Awesome, that's who I am.
> 
> Yeah and Tobi also fought Hashirama at VOTE, You got me!



you really cant get over the fact that i took a steaming dump on your precious Obito theory with my plotholes, can you? so you resort to insults  

is that what happens when someone disagrees with you? eh Misty? and you question my credibility?  you have truly taught me a lesson on trolling


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

The 10 year old is getting vewy angwyy goys

edit: you speak in absolutes which don't work with THEORIES. Absolutes are so fucking annoying, so stop it, things are left vague so there are no holes that make something impossible depending on who the theory is. listen to yourself talk.


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

lawl.

Tobi is a clone.

lawl.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 21, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> lawl.
> 
> Tobi is a clone.
> 
> lawl.



Yeah laugh how much you GUYS want 

He said "it doesnt have a mind on its own" about his Hashirama clone for a reason. And Kabuto knows his identity.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Kabuto doesn't know his identity. He just knew who it wasn't (Madara)


----------



## Escargon (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Kabuto doesn't know his identity. He just knew who it wasn't (Madara)



He mocks Tobis face time to time..


----------



## jacamo (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> The 10 year old is getting vewy angwyy goys
> 
> edit: you speak in absolutes which don't work with THEORIES. Absolutes are so fucking annoying, so stop it, things are left vague so there are no holes that make something impossible depending on who the theory is. listen to yourself talk.



lol... more insults, really showing your class there

since it annoys you i'll say it again, its *absolutely impossible* for Tobi to be Obito because there are glaring plotholes... get over it

dont be mad i shit on your theory, ok Misty?

*Spoiler*: __ 



*MISTY MAD.... mkay*


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 21, 2012)

Would you mind posting those Plotholes then?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 21, 2012)

Escargon said:


> He mocks Tobis face time to time..



No he doesn't. He's never once hinted at knowing who Tobi really is.



Kazekage Gaara said:


> Would you mind posting those Plotholes then?



They're in his sig and they've been addressed multiple times.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

lol good one, someone thinks he's Kishimoto 

And they are in his sig, and if you read my 3 part posts of quotes you can see they have been addressed time and time again with possibilities. But apparently you can't assume things in theories unless its based on nothing rather than actual events.

You know, not like I have ever made a hypothesis or anything. Science what? Not like I'm a Molecular Biology Major Biostats Chemistry Double Minor Premed going into Med School next year or anything. Far be it for me on knowing how to come up with theories and make logical arguments...........


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 21, 2012)

Yes, plotholes have been adressed multiple times. I don't support any theory, but it isn't okay to say plotholes, every theory has them.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> lol good one, someone thinks he's Kishimoto
> 
> And they are in his sig, and if you read my 3 part posts of quotes you can see they have been addressed time and time again with possibilities. But apparently you can't assume things in theories unless its based on nothing rather than actual events.
> 
> You know, not like I have ever made a hypothesis or anything. Science what? Not like I'm a Molecular Biology Major Biostats Chemistry Double Minor Premed going into Med School next year or anything. Far be it for me on knowing how to come up with theories and make logical arguments...........



Misty your Obito theory has been disproved many times

but of course, youre so damn obsessed with your Obito fandom that you cant get over it... so you have to come up with the wildest assumptions and fanfics just to convince yourself it *could* happen, conveniently and consistently ignoring established facts in the process

*anything* for Obito, eh Misty


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

Kazekage Gaara said:


> Yes, plotholes have been adressed multiple times. I don't support any theory, but it isn't okay to say plotholes, every theory has them.



Except theories with no plot that are more fan fiction than theory cough *Kagami* cough.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Misty your Obito theory has been disproved many times
> 
> but of course, youre so damn obsessed with your Obito fandom that you cant get over it... so you have to come up with the wildest assumptions and fanfics just to convince yourself it *could* happen, conveniently and consistently ignoring established facts in the process
> 
> *anything* for Obito, eh Misty



But I'm an Izuna fanboy. Lol isn't that crazy, someone hasn't been paying attention. I would have preferred Izuna or Fugaku over Obito, but that's the way the story has been playing out. That should show how unbiased I am by eliminating the principle problem in people making arguments of debate, i eliminated my bias from the beginning to see possibilities. It's a basic decision making skill. Someday maybe you will learn when you grow up.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 21, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Except theories with no plot that are more fan fiction than theory cough *Kagami* cough.



which wakamo obviously supports


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 21, 2012)

I missed a lot.
Did anyone get mad at my clone statement?


----------



## Jay. (Aug 21, 2012)

can't wait to see the face of the kagami bashers


kagami uchiha, father of obito uchiha


----------



## ShadeX23 (Aug 21, 2012)

Mistshadow, I just gotta say, that was a brilliant read and sums up the entire theory cohesively, and I pretty much agree with every single point. Still, the one thing left to be seen is what part specifically Obito could have played in Madara's plan, and why _exactly_ he chose him. It could be theorized that he saw potential in him, or perhaps that he was simply the only Uchiha he could get his hands on, but still, that's something I really hope is explained eventually.

Further support to the theory: remember back to issue 399, where Tobi speaks regarding Izuna giving his eyes to Madara? 



He says, "My brother played his part, and willingly gave his eyes to me." Now we know 2 things: 1. This is utter bullcrap. Madara himself said that, _in death_ Izuna left him only his _hatred_ and his eyes. So Tobi flubbed this story, but for what reason? Perhaps to gain Sasuke's support, to draw sympathy to the hardships that he, as "Madara," may have went through.

But I think it goes deeper than that. He reacts with discomfort upon saying that, as demonstrated when he clenches his arms tighter. But what does this mean? If Tobi was Izuna, why lie about that when, as Madara confirmed, he had hatred for what his brother did? Hell, why serve his brother in the first place? That's what doesn't make sense to me. Rather, what I think this panel is showing is that Tobi once gave up his eye(s) to a brother or comrade, and "played his part" in granting someone else power as a result. Like what Obito did for Kakashi, perhaps? When he "played his part" after giving his eye to Kakashi before getting crushed? It's probably bothering him now because of his current disdain for Kakashi, the reasons for which are still unclear.

And then there's one final point, and that is Tobi's anger over Nagato's "betrayal" upon using the Rinne-Rebirth for Naruto's sake and not Tobi's. Originally, people theorized that Tobi wanted to use it to revive Madara, and this seemed further enforced by Madara's assertion that he knew Nagato and planned to be revived that way, but I don't think so. Tobi seemed rather spooked upon seeing Madara in the Edo Tensai coffin, and it seems that Tobi wants to use the Infinite Tsukuyomi himself, rather than have Madara do it. So I think it's safe to say that Tobi isn't exactly working for Madara at this point, and is perhaps pursuing his own goals.

But then why was he so upset at Nagato's "betrayal?" Who could he have wanted to revive, and why was he so bitter over it? Now it's just a thought, but it could be the very person who's death might be behind Obito's turn to the dark side, so to speak, and that person is Rin. I really believe that Tobi wanted to revive the one person he loved who's death forever changed his view of the world. It would make more sense, considering just how angry he was at Nagato, continuously calling him a traitor, yet still being frightened at the prospect of Madara coming back via Edo Tensai. 

Again, this is more speculation than an actual theory, but a lot of things just seem to click together when you fill in the blanks, especially given the mystery surrounding Rin's death, Tobi/Obito's radical change in personality, how Kakashi awoke his Mangekyo, etc.


----------



## Moon Fang (Aug 21, 2012)

If Kishi had not given us so much time to prove he's not Obito he MAY have gotten away with it and it MIGHT make sense.


----------



## Escargon (Aug 21, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> No he doesn't. He's never once hinted at knowing who Tobi really is.



"I would like to see his mortified face now.. too bad he wears that mask now."

IDK how that sounds like, lets just imagine.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 21, 2012)

ShadeX23 said:


> Mistshadow, I just gotta say, that was a brilliant read and sums up the entire theory cohesively, and I pretty much agree with every single point. Still, the one thing left to be seen is what part specifically Obito could have played in Madara's plan, and why _exactly_ he chose him. It could be theorized that he saw potential in him, or perhaps that he was simply the only Uchiha he could get his hands on, but still, that's something I really hope is explained eventually.
> 
> Further support to the theory: remember back to issue 399, where Tobi speaks regarding Izuna giving his eyes to Madara?
> 
> ...



Yeah, and as I recall even Kabuto mentioned to Madara that he doubted Tobi was going along with their original plan.  What you said does make a lot of sense, were it to be true.


----------



## Numen Divinum (Aug 21, 2012)

I can't imagine how he could possibly be Obito, Madara knew what Tobi was up to, without being informed by anyone after he was revived by Kabuto.
I think Tobi is Madaras brother Izuna, it would also explain Tobis obsession with collecting Sharingan, since he gave his own eyes to his brother.


----------



## vegeta2002 (Aug 21, 2012)

*Tobi Was Lying About Izuna Too*

Edo Madara basically said that the real reason for him taking his brothers eyes was just to complete the next step on the path to Rinnegan/Mugen Tsukyomi and that fighting Hashirama was for this purpose as well. I think the implications of that are being overlooked.

1. Both Madara and Izuna were trying to power up their eyes. Izuna read the tablet with the same dojutsus as Madara. He wasn't a good guy nor was he surprised when Madara wanted his eyes.
*
Tobito Fails*

2. Izuna is less "dead" than Madara was after VotE. Madara's "death" wasn't off paneled. The only evidence for Izuna's death is a story told by Tobi.

*Tobito Fails*

3. Izuna would have been able to pass for Madara against Minato, Itachi, Danzou, Kisame, and Kyuubi.

*Tobito Fails
*
4. Izuna would've naturally been a collector of eyes after "dying". He was obsessed with eyes back when Danzou was still in diapers.

*Tobito Fails*

5. Izuna is the only Tobi candidate who could've told Kabuto that he fought fought Shodai with a straight face. Kabuto already knew he wasn't Madara
*
Tobito Fails*

6. Izuna is the only candidate who can honestly say that Madara's and Nagato's powers were originally his. If Obito wanted to "become whole" he would've gone after Kakashi's sharingan.
*
Tobito Fails*

7. Izuna has a reason to be pissed off at Kakashi. Kakashi symbolically took his own "brothers" eye to waste it on "Will of Fire" fail. Obito taught Kakashi the "Will of Fire."
*
Tobito Fails*


----------



## MminatoO (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't support Tobito either but your points doesnt proof anything. Only number 6 is somewhat valid


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Well Said Shade



Escargon said:


> "I would like to see his mortified face now.. too bad he wears that mask now."
> 
> IDK how that sounds like, lets just imagine.



Sounds to me like someone who wants to see that face that is covered by a mask out of curiosity. 
[ 5 ]
Implies to me he doesn't know what his face looks like.



Numen Divinum said:


> I can't imagine how he could possibly be Obito, Madara knew what Tobi was up to, without being informed by anyone after he was revived by Kabuto.
> I think Tobi is Madaras brother Izuna, it would also explain Tobis obsession with collecting Sharingan, since he gave his own eyes to his brother.



Well the Moons Eye Plan seems to have been Madara's plan from the beginning. And IF Madara lived to Obito gettin crushed by the rock, he could have taught him it.

PS Shade: It was said in the databook and manga multiple times though that Izuna gave his eyes to Madara when he was alive, and THEN died on the battlefield while fighting blind. Madara saying that meant that all that is left of Izuna is the eyes and power in comparison with all that is left of hashirama is the will of fire. It's not what they left right when they died, but rather what remains after their death even.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

Another one...  nice fan fiction.  But we saw Izuna... I mean Madara's unnamed brother in a coffin.  I doubt it was fake.   I could see if he was brought back.  In 2-3 weeks you will find out lol.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 21, 2012)

Numen Divinum said:


> I can't imagine how he could possibly be Obito, Madara knew what Tobi was up to, without being informed by anyone after he was revived by Kabuto.
> I think Tobi is Madaras brother Izuna, it would also explain Tobis obsession with collecting Sharingan, since he gave his own eyes to his brother.



If it was Izuna and Madara knew it, then why did he confirm Izuna's death, and refer to Tobi as "that man".  Also, giving his eyes away would be a pretty weak reason to collect Sharingan.  The "most likely" scenario is that he was collecting spares for izanagi.  Confirmed?  No, but still likely.  Unlike what many people around here seem to think, things that are unexplained can have *likely* explanations.  It's called logic.  Yes, I'm talking to you Jacamo.


----------



## MminatoO (Aug 21, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Another one...  nice fan fiction.  But we saw Izuna... I mean Madara's unnamed brother in a coffin.  I doubt it was fake.   I could see if he was brought back.  In 2-3 weeks you will find out lol.



Plus the manga is at its climax. Tobi being Izuna at this point would be too boring for a finale.


----------



## vegeta2002 (Aug 21, 2012)

MminatoO said:


> Plus the manga is at its climax. Tobi being Izuna at this point would be too boring for a finale.



If you like 6, what do have against 5 or 3?


----------



## Fulgrim (Aug 21, 2012)

I found this on youtube some time ago and by far this is the best explanation for tobis identity. If this vid was already posted i apologize to mods
Here you go/


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

MminatoO said:


> Plus the manga is at its climax. Tobi being Izuna at this point would be too boring for a finale.



Only people who go on forums or the databook or natuopedia know that the brother of Madara is named *Izuna*

Because it has NEVER been written in the manga. He was named in the freaking databook lol.


----------



## darkprinc979 (Aug 21, 2012)

MminatoO said:


> Plus the manga is at its climax. Tobi being Izuna at this point would be too boring for a finale.



By that logic though, Obito is the only one it could be anyways.  Obito is the only candidate mentioned that would bring any sort of drama to the end.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want it to be Obito.  Unfortunately, to the *unbiased* (talking to you again Jacamo) observer, most of the evidence points to Obito.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

vegeta2002 said:


> If you like 6, what do have against 5 or 3?



None of your points cement it, they support izuna, but nothing nails in the coffin for 100% just like nothing nails in the coffin for obito or cements that it can't be obito.

1. so why did izuna need to be sneaking into the naka shrine to read the tablet when itachi caught him.

2.  we have a panel of him in a coffin, and we have databook saying he died on the battlefield while fighting blind. 

3. Anyone can as long as they have Uchiha powers, and are taught by Madara. If you were trained by Madara as his 'apprentice' you can pass for him apparently. And Minato dismissed the idea of it being Madara.

4.  define him being obssessed with eyes when danzou was in diapers? basin git on nothing I see. And Obito could jsut as easily have an obssession with eyes. But why such a fixation on that ONE RIGHT eye ball? Why does he always have that one showing and using and never throwing it away with izanagi.

5. The reader didn't know he wasn't madara at that point. Also because kabuto knew he wasn't madara doesn't mean kabuto knew who tobi was. He still spoke as Madara so Kabuto would not be able to figure it out.

6.  or WHOLE means to be infinite tsukuyomi god. Getting the juubi doesn't make izuna or madara 'whole' by your definition. And if it was his power to begin with, why would he give it to someone like nagato who could have and did go rogue. when in fact he could have possessed the epic rinnegan all along. 

Also why would Madara say all that is left of his brother is his eyes and power if he was still alive.

Again none of these make it impossible for tobi to be izuna. just saying there are questions that will need to be filled and none of what you said makes it so izuna is 100%

Here's something I posted in Feb before the latest set of information we been getting for the new volume about to be released with the identity reveal to show I'm open minded, its a pretty thorough Izuna theory:

*Spoiler*: __ 






Mistshadow said:


> After much analysis and thinking, despite there being multiple possibilities (fugaku, kagami, zetsu clone, obito, elder son) I have come to a decision on who the most likely candidate for the man that we have come to know as Tobi is.
> 
> *Izuna*
> 
> ...






edit:


darkprinc979 said:


> By that logic though, Obito is the only one it could be anyways.  Obito is the only candidate mentioned that would bring any sort of drama to the end.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I don't want it to be Obito.  Unfortunately, to the *unbiased* (talking to you again Jacamo) observer, most of the evidence points to Obito.



HAHA I'm enjoying you far too much, but yes to the unbiased observer most likely is Obito. Whether I and We like it or not.


----------



## Scizor (Aug 21, 2012)

I do not mean to offend anyone but I'd like to point out something:

I agree that the manga is hinting that Tobi is Obito, but before recent chapters Tobi being Obito was quite illogical: the theory was a little farfetched; it had some elements that were a little harder to explain, to put it simply. The Tobito believers stuck by it (anyway) and this isn't a bad thing: they stuck by what they believed and that is a commendable thing. The thing that is less commendable is that some acted like Tobito was the only possible outcome and bluntly cast aside other theories and their theorists (but not only Tobito believers did this, of course). With that said, I'd like to point out that if Tobi turns out to be Obito, which the manga is hinting towards, the Tobito believers can be glad of course, but there is no need to pat yourself on the back too hard because the theory has always been a little iffy and believing in/sticking by it (or, as it is called, predicting it) is commendable because it shows dedication and not because it has shown the best analysis of the manga up to most recent chapters. Alot of Tobi's identity theories have things going for them, and that shouldn't be neglected, so casting aside other theories isn't something to pat yourself on the back for at all (and this goes for all theorists of course).

*tl;dr:* Kishimoto can essentially make almost every near logical outcome of Tobi's identity work, so claiming superiority, even after Tobi's identity is revealed, is just silly.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 21, 2012)

100% Confirmed. 


*Spoiler*: _Tobi=_ 



> Uzumaki uses chains
> Tobi uses chains
> Tobi is a Uzumaki
> Tobi is Nagato's father


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

Lol I agree, it's people who refuse to accept the possibilities however that ruin stuff by being close minded.
STRONG Obito evidence hasn't really surfaced until the last month or so really. And this stuff isn't mean to be read one week at a time but in one sit down of a volume. That is why there aren't any drawing mistakes in volumes for example. So to say this is a long time coming obvious is wrong. It's only been recent. And even before that recent there had been other alternatives. Problem is for someone to be it and have no hints whatsoever would be out of the blue.

People need to open your minds, some are being ignorant as fuck. There were the people who made fun of those who were saying Tobi wasn't Madara to begin with.

AND, there were people like Jacamo who would bash the guy who made the juubi theory before the moons eye plan was revealed as what it is. 

There was ONE other guy I recall who made a theory about the juubi even 2 years BEFORE this one. 
Look at that bashing. People need to stop being so close minded coughjacamocough and see Kishi can do whatever he wants. 

Or seriously, tell me WHAT foreshadowing did juubi get, and didn't juubi get proven, and wasn't it previously stated that there were only 9 bijuus with kyuubi being strongest, ZOMG PLOT HOLE..........................



Scizor said:


> *tl;dr:* Kishimoto can essentially make almost every near logical outcome of Tobi's identity work, so claiming superiority, even after Tobi's identity is revealed, is just silly.



I'm still going to mock the handful of people who refused to see it as a possibility and were absolute about impossible regardless of who it is.



> My guess. Makes a lot more sense.





> Well it's just a guess but I'm 100% sure you're wrong


Do these sound familiar to someone we know  guys?


----------



## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i think you are missing the point... why do you assume Kagami turned good in the first place? if he conspired with Madara then it means he was always loyal


According to you, obito's death pushed him over the edge. But if we're playing this game, why do you assume Kagami turned evil in the first place?



First Tsurugi said:


> I can't believe we're actually going to fill up _*another*_ thread.
> 
> This place moves stupidly fast.






Mistshadow said:


> edit: I would have posted ObitoUchiha stuff too, but he mostly repeats what I say, So I only needed to say my stuff =p=p=p lol so don't think I left you out bro


Wha?

I post tons of shit you don't....

This is discrimination!



Escargon said:


> Yeah laugh how much you GUYS want
> 
> He said "it doesnt have a mind on its own" about his Hashirama clone for a reason. And Kabuto knows his identity.


What relevance does that have to Tobi's identity?



Jay. said:


> can't wait to see the face of the Obito bashers
> 
> 
> Obito Uchiha, the son of another Uchiha.


Fixed.



ShadeX23 said:


> Mistshadow, I just gotta say, that was a brilliant read and sums up the entire theory cohesively, and I pretty much agree with every single point. Still, the one thing left to be seen is what part specifically Obito could have played in Madara's plan, and why _exactly_ he chose him. It could be theorized that he saw potential in him, or perhaps that he was simply the only Uchiha he could get his hands on, but still, that's something I really hope is explained eventually.
> 
> Further support to the theory: remember back to issue 399, where Tobi speaks regarding Izuna giving his eyes to Madara?
> 
> ...


Never thought of that. But it would seem a little too cheesy and romantic if he was really planing to revive Rin. 



Scizor said:


> I do not mean to offend anyone but I'd like to point out something:
> 
> I agree that the manga is hinting that Tobi is Obito, but before recent chapters Tobi being Obito was quite illogical: the theory was a little farfetched; it had some elements that were a little harder to explain, to put it simply. The Tobito believers stuck by it (anyway) and this isn't a bad thing: they stuck by what they believed and that is a commendable thing. The thing that is less commendable is that some acted like Tobito was the only possible outcome and bluntly cast aside other theories and their theorists (but not only Tobito believers did this, of course). With that said, I'd like to point out that if Tobi turns out to be Obito, which the manga is hinting towards, the Tobito believers can be glad of course, but there is no need to pat yourself on the back too hard because the theory has always been a little iffy and believing in/sticking by it (or, as it is called, predicting it) is commendable because it shows dedication and not because it has shown the best analysis of the manga up to most recent chapters. Alot of Tobi's identity theories have things going for them, and that shouldn't be neglected, so casting aside other theories isn't something to pat yourself on the back for at all (and this goes for all theorists of course).
> 
> *tl;dr:* Kishimoto can essentially make almost every near logical outcome of Tobi's identity work, so claiming superiority, even after Tobi's identity is revealed, is just silly.


I'm also not trying to offend you but the Obito theory still had just about as much evidence even before 594-597. The parallels, the writing style, the Japanese mythology, how he acted around Kakashi.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 21, 2012)

vegeta2002 said:


> 1. Both Madara and Izuna were trying to power up their eyes. Izuna read the tablet with the same dojutsus as Madara. He wasn't a good guy nor was he surprised when Madara wanted his eyes.



The tablet likely didn't exist during the times of Izuna and Madara.



> 2. Izuna is less "dead" than Madara was after VotE. Madara's "death" wasn't off paneled. The only evidence for Izuna's death is a story told by Tobi.



So I guess you're just ignoring Madara himself stated Izuna was dead, and that only his eyes remain?



> 7. Izuna has a reason to be pissed off at Kakashi. Kakashi symbolically took his own "brothers" eye to waste it on "Will of Fire" fail. Obito taught Kakashi the "Will of Fire."



The reason Tobi is angry with Kakashi is because he is "All talk, no action". It has little to do with his use of Sharingan.


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## Moon Fang (Aug 21, 2012)

This had me thinking...did Tobi know Kakashi had Obitos eye before he tried to use Kamui on him or did Tobi have knowledge of Kakashi using it before and deducted they share the same pair ?


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 21, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> This had me thinking...did Tobi know Kakashi had Obitos eye before he tried to use Kamui on him or did Tobi have knowledge of Kakashi using it before and deducted they share the same pair ?



He knew they had the same eyes because he gave one to him.


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## NarutoSamaMan (Aug 21, 2012)

Ok everybody Tobis identity will be revealed tommorow so whats evrybody's final answer mines is Kagami.


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## Moon Fang (Aug 21, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> He knew they had the same eyes because he gave one to him.



I was waiting for that


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## Fulgrim (Aug 21, 2012)

RS elder son


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## darkprinc979 (Aug 21, 2012)

> The tablet likely didn't exist during the times of Izuna and Madara.



I highly doubt that.  To read the entire thing you need the rinnegan, which means at least the rinnegan only portion had to be written by someone who understood the rinnegan and its inner workings.  How would Madara know the entire history of the sage of the six paths to be able to put it in the tablet like that?  My guess is that the tablet was written over time as the rinnegan devolved into the sharingan.

Also, my final answer will be Obito.  Now I'm just waiting for Kishi to pull an epic troll and have Madara's mask shatter or fall of next chapter, then in the final panel show Kakashi's shocked expression, and some message telling us we'll have to wait til the following week to see Tobi's face.  I will laugh so hard if this happens.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 21, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> I highly doubt that.  To read the entire thing you need the rinnegan, which means at least the rinnegan only portion had to be written by someone who understood the rinnegan and its inner workings.  How would Madara know the entire history of the sage of the six paths to be able to put it in the tablet like that?  My guess is that the tablet was written over time as the rinnegan devolved into the sharingan.



I should have clarified in that I don't think the tablet as it currently exists existed back then.

It is possible that it could have existed with only the information relevant to the Rikudou Sennin written on it, but neither Madara nor Izuna would have been able to read this at any point, so Madara likely learned of it through other methods.

The information regarding MS and the secrets of Madara's body would obviously not be included because they were recent discoveries.


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## Raventhal (Aug 21, 2012)

The thing that makes me laugh the most at some anti-Obito theorist.

1.  Claim its impossible to be Obito or there is no evidence and then turn around and say its a red herring or agree with those who do.  Kind of hard to be a red herring or too obvious if there is no evidence.  Sounds like denial.

2.  Scream plot holes or timeline issues like neither have changed.  Almost all of the big mysteries in the manga when revealed changed events even found false.  Itachi being good, Tobi is Madara, Kabuto's sixth coffin, Nagato's eyes being Madara's, Madara surviving VOTE and originator of stolen Senju DNA, Naruto's Dad being Minato, Naruto having having bloodline powers, SoSP creating Senju and Uchiha.  Countless reveals that changed timeline or plot.  With the whole Madara, Obito, Tobi, Zetsu, Nagato, Akatsuki, Kakashi and Rin connections being off panel, mystery or rumor its not hard to see what you think happened might not have.

3. OMG how did he get so powerful to fight Minato. He was too young, horrible.   Yet ironically Naruto who is likely fighting Obito was worst and about the same age and even more powerful than Obito was.  Naruto couldn't make a single shadow clone at one point.  Now probably has more raw power than even Madara.  I won't even get into Itachi or Kakashi did at 13 or the fact that the fight vs. Minato wasn't a one trick pony show largely.  

Anyways I have a feeling reveal will be this chapter or at least the mask breaking.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

I it was said, or at least obvious, the tablet was made by RS or elder son BECAUSE it has said information that only they could have known and it's
Old.


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## darkprinc979 (Aug 21, 2012)

Tobi is not Obito.  He is in fact......trollface!!!!11!1!1!  100% confirmed with manga panels and statements from Kishi wtfbbq!!!  Anyone who disagrees is a hater who doesn't read the manga and has no logic or deductive reasoning and can go die in a hole.


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## Scizor (Aug 21, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I'm also not trying to offend you but the Obito theory still had just about as much evidence even before 594-597. The parallels, the writing style, the Japanese mythology, how he acted around Kakashi.



'Evidence' is too strong a word for those.


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## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

Scizor said:
			
		

> 'Evidence' is too strong a word for those.


It's evidence, bud.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 21, 2012)

The only hard evidence that really existed until recently were the similarities of their space/time jutsu.


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## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:
			
		

> The only hard evidence that really existed until recently were the similarities of their space/time jutsu.


Well, yeah. I guess evidence was the wrong word for the things I described. But those things still made it seem much more likely. And they were there far before chapter 594.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 21, 2012)

I can honestly say I already knew and believed itachi was a good guy. He gave me the Sesshomaru vibe since his introduction


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## Mobius Uchiha (Aug 21, 2012)

So...around what time did Tobi mind-control the Mizukage? What eye was he using? Obito's eye? Does it fit in the timeline? Because if it's not, all Tobito theories are just a failure, mine included.


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## darkprinc979 (Aug 21, 2012)

> So...around what time did Tobi mind-control the Mizukage? What eye was he using? Obito's eye? Does it fit in the timeline? Because if it's not, all Tobito theories are just a failure, mine included.



Well, I've seen people around here say the panel we were shown was supposed to take place around ten years after the bloody mist stuff that went on.  I don't remember what reasoning was used to deduce that, but as far as I know no solid proof exists to state an exact time.


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## NW (Aug 21, 2012)

Would someone care to explain why Rin's death hasn't been explained yet?


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## Easley (Aug 21, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Well, I've seen people around here say the panel we were shown was supposed to take place around ten years after the bloody mist stuff that went on.  I don't remember what reasoning was used to deduce that, but as far as I know no solid proof exists to state an exact time.


I'm uncertain.

Yagura was after the Kyuubi attack but before the Uchiha massacre I think. 

The Bloody Mist was probably started by Madara, and its Tobi who controlled Yagura - assuming the long haired man isn't the real Madara. If he's Obito he would be far too young to cause the upheaval in Kirigakure.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 21, 2012)

Easley said:


> I'm uncertain.
> 
> Yagura was after the Kyuubi attack but before the Uchiha massacre I think.
> 
> The Bloody Mist was probably started by Madara, and its Tobi who controlled Yagura - assuming the long haired man isn't the real Madara. If he's Obito he would be far too young to cause the upheaval in Kirigakure.



The long haired man was definitely Tobi.

Madara could have started the Bloody Mist by controlling Yagura, with Tobi/Obito inheriting that role, but so far there is no evidence suggesting that.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

And let's try this one more time to cement that I have nothing to worry about whoever the fuck he is:



A thread I made back in OCTOBER OF 2011, LAST YEAR.



Mistshadow said:


> The remaining possibilities of Tobi, like I've said numerous times, lets see your guys opinions. I have my reasons stated.
> 
> 1. Advanced Zetsu clone of Madara
> 
> ...


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## Escargon (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Would someone care to explain why Rin's death hasn't been explained yet?



Theres many things that hasnt been explained anyways.


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## DemonDragonJ (Aug 22, 2012)

*If Tobi Really is Obito... (read for full question)*

I do not believe that Tobi is Obito, despite there being some evidence that he may be, and despite the title of this thread, and my reasons are that Obito's body was crushed and he died without any major regrets. However, if, in the rare chance that Tobi actually is Obito, will we, the audience, finally learn the exact details of Rin's ultimate fate, since her two teammates would be together? I would very much like for that to occur, as I still wonder what fate befell Rin. What does everyone else say about that?


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## death_god_fan (Aug 22, 2012)

Not sure who he is but I think he's a senju


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 22, 2012)

The thread is for discussion of Tobi's possible identities. It is not for airing personal grievances.
Continuing such misbehavior will cause you to miss the reveal.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

death_god_fan said:


> Not sure who he is but I think he's a senju



I think he has senju dna


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I think he has senju dna


_Izanagi_ and Hashirama's arms disagree.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> _Izanagi_ and Hashirama's arms disagree.



let me rephrase that.

I think he has Senju dna
AND he has Uchiha dna

Now lemme go scurry around to find that manga page where he talks about boasting the power of the sage of six paths, and a more complete form than danzo did.



[2]
Includes Tobi mentioning the incomplete form for not controlling hashirama's power properly


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> he has Uchiha dna


Obito's and others' Sharingan disagree.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

I'm confuzzled

dragonus use your admin powers and get that chapter released faster, letsy go,lol jk


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 22, 2012)

Most if not all of Tobi's body is likely made up of the white goo that white Zetsus are made out of, which is apparently derived from Senju DNA, specifically Hashirama's.

His Sharingan and the fact that he is likely an Uchiha contribute the Uchiha half of the DNA.


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## YellowSennin (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> let me rephrase that.
> 
> I think he has Senju dna
> AND he has Uchiha dna
> ...



That would mean that Itachi has both Senju DNA and Uchiha DNA right? I can't remember if he can use Inzanagi but if he can use Izanami then he should be able to?


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## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

izanami was never said to require senju dna. 

I'm just going with what Tobi said to confirm that Tobi HAS those aspects of his body.

Point is Zetsu good is senju dna, and sharingan and his likeliness of being an uchiha is uchiha dna


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## YellowSennin (Aug 22, 2012)

It's likely to be why Yamato was taken then.


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## HakuGaara (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Would someone care to explain why Rin's death hasn't been explained yet?



Because it wasn't important enough to devote page space to.


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## McLover (Aug 22, 2012)

the main villains in naruto were orochimaru & akatsuki. all of the villains are somehow related to tobi, now i see no reason that the main & final villain of the naruto series would be some kid who once was kakashi's friend. the eyes explanation is reasonable and understandable, however even as a big naruto series lover i dont welcome the idea of tobi being obito mainly for the reason above. there were many references to uchiha madara's legacy, i see no reason of tobi being someone like obito, kagami, or whoever.
who cares about rin, its unnecessary and unexciting to start building on a new character at the end of a series *rolls eyes*


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## Mugivara (Aug 22, 2012)

Just a short theory:

How can Tobi use his Sharingan free of charge? Kakashi would die many times because of that...

So my theory is that, Tobi is not Obito but Shishui in body. And the MS belongs to Obito. 

Till here, everything seems confusing... why Shishui and not Obito in body?

Because Obito and Shishui were brothers(Not necessary to gain it but lets just consider it..) and by taking Obito's eyes Shishui might have obtained the EMS. Both of them have MS eyes and they could obtained EMS by using their eyes.


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## wolfman_120 (Aug 22, 2012)

Forgive my ignorance, but it seems to me that we are convering on Tobi=Obito. Or is it that I am missing something and this isn't true? Because at this point, I'm just laughing at all the Anti-Obito theorists


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## Raventhal (Aug 22, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Well, I've seen people around here say the panel we were shown was supposed to take place around ten years after the bloody mist stuff that went on.  I don't remember what reasoning was used to deduce that, but as far as I know no solid proof exists to state an exact time.



It's more a guestimation.  

Kisame joined up with Itachi shortly after the panel.  Even giving 5 years for "shortly" from the panel to joining Itachi, Kisame would be 19 in the panel.  He joined Itachi when he was 13 and Kisame was 24. The Bloody Mist ended when Kisame was 11 by Zabuza who was 9.


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## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Aug 22, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Just a short theory:
> 
> How can Tobi use his Sharingan free of charge? Kakashi would die many times because of that...
> 
> ...



I think there would still be the problem of time-line.


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## Khazzar (Aug 22, 2012)

He simply can't be Obito if you read the manga properly.


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## Mugivara (Aug 22, 2012)

ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE said:


> I think there would still be the problem of time-line.



No I'm not saying Shishui or Obito is the one who is behind everything. They both are just bodies connected to Zetsu and being controlled by Danzo(Or you can choose anybody else instead Danzo)


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## darkprinc979 (Aug 22, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I do not believe that Tobi is Obito, despite there being some evidence that he may be, and despite the title of this thread, and my reasons are that Obito's body was crushed and he died without any major regrets. However, if, in the rare chance that Tobi actually is Obito, will we, the audience, finally learn the exact details of Rin's ultimate fate, since her two teammates would be together? I would very much like for that to occur, as I still wonder what fate befell Rin. What does everyone else say about that?



Problem is, Obito's death was never confirmed.  Obito would also not be the first person we saw die, as Zabuza in part one was actually *confirmed* dead by Kakashi when he checked his pulse.  His death was faked.  Orochimaru was sealed into the sword of totsuka by Itachi, never to return.  He came back and is now with Sasuke, Juugo and Suigetsu.


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## Mei Lin (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito Is Tobi the wording, ,Only Obito Can make Kakashi hesitate,Obito must have a grudge how Rin died,and we'll see the backstory soon,hence how Kakashi will play his major role in the war,and how many people Does Kakashi knows that have Sharigan,and the fact Tobi always have one eye,and the fact that Kakashi's Kamui was sent to the same dimension as Tobi's Kamui,and Tobi has the same hair cut as Obito. Obito has Orange goggles and clothing,Tobi has a orange mask.


  stated that he acquired the  in his right eye socket here as well during the Third Shinobi World War.
17 years ago Obito died,all leds to Obito being Tobi,atleast his body .


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## DemonDragonJ (Aug 22, 2012)

darkprinc979 said:


> Problem is, Obito's death was never confirmed.  Obito would also not be the first person we saw die, as Zabuza in part one was actually *confirmed* dead by Kakashi when he checked his pulse.  His death was faked.  Orochimaru was sealed into the sword of totsuka by Itachi, never to return.  He came back and is now with Sasuke, Juugo and Suigetsu.



Yes, that is very true, but if Tobi is actually Obito, Kishimoto shall need to explain how he became vengeful and also extremely powerful.

Until Kishimoto proves otherwise, which may not be long from now, I still believe that Tobi is Izuna, Madara's brother, for two reasons: first, because Tobi has many of the same memories that Madara has; and second, it would greatly increase his importance to the plot, as Izuna's only significant role in the story, thus far, has been to provide depth for Madara as a character.


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## odilbek123 (Aug 22, 2012)

It is Danzo


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## Hiroshi (Aug 22, 2012)

Closing this thread for now as it's spoiler prone. I will re-open it after the new chapter has been around for a bit.


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