# Strongest Akatsuki member Tsunade can defeat?



## Beyonce (Apr 27, 2017)

Generally curious on where Tsunade matches up against the Akatsuki. So without further ado.

Scenario 1.) Katsuyu is restricted
Scenario 2.) No restrictions

Personally to me, I believe it's Kakuzu. I don't see his jutsu arsenal being strong enough to put down a constantly regenerating Tsunade. I'm sure she can take down his 5 hearts before her seal runs out.

Note: Please give a quick explanation for your answer.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Jad (Apr 27, 2017)

Kakuzu depending how versatile she is. Kakuzu isn't quick, Konan as well. 

Sasori depending how poison works on regen. It may just paraylze her and not injure her, thus leaving her wide open. It'll be extreme difficulty if she wins and possibly use up all her reserves of Chakra. Sasori vs. Chiyo/Sakura didn't do him any good, then blitzed by Sai.

That's it.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 27, 2017)

Anyone not named Itachi, Obito or Nagato/Pain. Other than that, she has *fair chances *at being anyone else.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2017)

I think it's Sasori, probably both scenarios.


*Spoiler*: __ 





FlamingRain said:


> There are multiple ways a toxin can cause paralysis. _If_ the anime's description of Sasori's isn't already correct, then it's at the very least on the right track.
> 
> Going by the databook explanation of Saikan Chūshutsu no Jutsu, which Sakura utilized in order to save Kankuro, Sasori's poison essentially deals a very fine physical damage to produce its effect (which lines up with Tsunade's comments about poisons being like cellular scale attacks during Kakuzu's autopsy), as it's pointed out in the description that Sakura's technique traced the toxin _causing injury_ then _both_ removed it _and_ healed the _injury that was being inflicted by it_.
> 
> ...






I consider Sasori to be the next strongest Akatsuki member after Itachi. (Deidara could perform better against Tsunade than Sasori, though.)

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Hazuki (Apr 27, 2017)

in my opinion tsunade would defeat any akatsuki expect itachi , obito ,pain and maybe konan  ( i think taijutsu is not usefull against her)

so the strongest akatsuki she might defeat is kisame


----------



## GoldGournetChef (Apr 27, 2017)

Itachi

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Bonly (Apr 27, 2017)

I'd say that Tsunade can beat any Akatsuki member bar the Dojutsu trio

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Ishmael (Apr 27, 2017)

GoldGournetChef said:


> Itachi



False. Extremely false, if itachi uses Ms right away then yea false she doesn't last longm


----------



## Ishmael (Apr 27, 2017)

Beyonce said:


> Generally curious on where Tsunade matches up against the Akatsuki. So without further ado.
> 
> Scenario 1.) Katsuyu is restricted
> Scenario 2.) No restrictions
> ...



How? His jutsu was strong enough to take out and disfigure a forest and tsunade has no ninjutsu and hasn't shown any on the level of kakazus to nullify the attacks. 

Kakazus mask all were mastered or very high leveled ninjutsu using mask, he can fight from all ranges, long, mid and cqc do to his maak something tsunade can't do. He also could intercept attacks and shit without being noticed, has a solid 4 in speed in the data book.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 27, 2017)

All of them.

Itachi said Kisame and backup would be irrelevant in a fight between Itachi and Jiraiya.

And Tsunade is also a Sannin, so that also applies to her. 

Not to mention she mocked Kakashi for losing against Itachi and Kisame, wich implies she's above everybody here. And she tagged madara, who's also above every Akatsuki.

Not to mention the being able to punch at light speed and not even Truth seeker balls destroying Byakugo and pocket sized Katsuyu surviving Nagato's strongest technique.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Optimistic 1


----------



## The_Conqueror (Apr 27, 2017)

Kisame

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 27, 2017)

She has a chance to beat all of them bar the dojutsu trio.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 27, 2017)

Nagato beats her low diff
Obito beats her low diff
Itachi beats her high diff
Konan beats her high diff (Tsunade totally revolves around Taijutsu... so I dont see her doing any damage to Konan's paper form, the best she can do is outlast or summon Katsuyu which haves the potential to kill her)
Orochimaru (p1 edo) high diff
Sasori - high diff
Kisame - high diff
Kakazu - high diff
Deidera - mid diff
Hidan - low diff
Zetsu - low diff


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Not to mention the being able to punch at light speed and not even Truth seeker balls destroying Byakugo and pocket sized Katsuyu surviving Nagato's strongest technique.



If you're talking about me that's not what I said.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 27, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> If you're talking about me that's not what I said.



I am not. I'm not talking about anyone in the post, though. I'm just getting feats of her and using them to make her look greater. Like i did with Kisame vs Perfect Susano'o around his hype of "Never getting tired and never falling".

It has nothing to do with past claims or anything.


----------



## GoldGournetChef (Apr 27, 2017)

`Lazlo said:


> False. Extremely false, if itachi uses Ms right away then yea false she doesn't last longm[/QUOTE/]
> Since when did itachi start using ms techs as a starting move


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Apr 27, 2017)

She has little to no chance of beating the dōjutsu trio. 

Her greatest match is Kisame, and here's where things get pretty debatable. Kisame has the speed and agility to deal with her comfortably in CQC; as far as I'm concerned, he's not getting hit by her unless pinned or cornered. What's more is, he has the long-range chops to wear her down, and while attrition generally isn't the best approach to taking down one of the most resilient combatants of the Narutoverse, Kisame can and will use the diversion to set up Suirō Sameodori.

Here's where Tsunade is fighting a losing battle. She'll get pounced by a physically enhanced Kisame while continually losing chakra without a single way of anticipating the latter's attacks nor mitigating the chakra drainage. Summoning Katsuyu is pointless; the water dome is larger than the slug is, and Katsuyu will likely de-summon once enough chakra has been sucked off. Tsunade will only be delaying the inevitable, and that's her completely emaciated before Kisame finishes her off.

She has no real way of beating Suirō Sameodori, so she needs to take out Kisame _fast_. That assumes knowledge, but she still needs to punch her way through a thousand sharks before getting to the swordsman himself. This still isn't taking into account Daikōdan, but that technique is generally featless.

In conclusion, it's a 35-65 against Kisame, and so the next strongest is Deidara. She has better chances of winning that, with a 60/40 from my view.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Gohara (Apr 28, 2017)

Kisame although a match up between them can go either way in my opinion.


----------



## theRonin (Apr 28, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Kisame


I see what you did there.

OT: katsuyu solos all.


----------



## Monna (Apr 28, 2017)

kakuzu sounds right.


----------



## Beyonce (Apr 28, 2017)

`Lazlo said:


> How? His jutsu was strong enough to take out and disfigure a forest and tsunade has no ninjutsu and hasn't shown any on the level of kakazus to nullify the attacks.


Tsunade batted away 5 of Madara's fire styles. Assuming that Madara's ninjutsu>Kakuzu's masks she shouldn't have much trouble withstanding the pain and regenerating afterwards. She doesn't need to nullify his attacks, just take them.



> Kakazus mask all were mastered or very high leveled ninjutsu using mask, he can fight from all ranges, long, mid *and cqc* do to his maak something tsunade can't do. He also could intercept attacks and shit without being noticed, has a solid 4 in speed in the data book.



The minute Kakuzu gets into CQC with Tsunade it's a death sentence for him.

 A 4 in the databook isn't far away from Tsunade's 3.5. Hidan who also has a 3.5 managed to tag Kakashi and Asuma (both who have a 4.5).


----------



## Ishmael (Apr 28, 2017)

Beyonce said:


> Tsunade batted away 5 of Madara's fire styles. Assuming that Madara's ninjutsu>Kakuzu's masks she shouldn't have much trouble withstanding the pain and regenerating afterwards. She doesn't need to nullify his attacks, just take them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did you see the weapon hidan utilizes?

Also that's nice and dandy but she's not quick enough to bat away 4 different types of ninjutsu being thrown at her at the same time. The mask can fly and evade by being in the air, kakazu battled hashirama senju, him battling tsunade isn't going to be hard at all. She does need to nullify his attacks, I don't see her tanking multiple ninjutsu being thrown at her. 

Cqc isn't a issue... Kakazu body isn't like others and he's basically ganging tsunade in this fight. Knowledge is more on his side then hers, pretty sure he knows who tsunade is and age contributes to that, he could possibly engage In cqc but its not instant death he's immortal, shed create a hole in his probably. But with kakazu unique body I could see him having a slight advantage, you also have to take in domu which has put up with great physical damage. He has water clones, clones period something tsunade cant replicate.

That's me even suggesting he allows her in cqc he could start with his mid range or long range ability and tsunade doesn't know about the hearts thing. So I really don't feel like she has the analytical ability of shikamaru or kakashi to point it out.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Apr 28, 2017)

shes stronger than all but the eyeball trio, but she can only beat hidan w/o slugs, then konan & kisame(50/50) w/ them.

Because of her tool set being so acute & what her character is geared towards, she has no tangible chance against the rest of the mids; deidara who she can't properly engage, kakuzu who she cant harm & sasori who she can't compete w/ at all(poison or not).


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 28, 2017)

Besides Itachi, Pain and Obito, I'd say she can beat all of them under normal circumstances.

Depending on how he plays his cards, Deidara has the potential to give Tsunade the greatest amount of difficulty among the remaining Akatsuki members. Although generally speaking I think Kisame is stronger than Deidara is. So technically, he's the strongest she can defeat.


----------



## Tri (Apr 28, 2017)

Depends on whether or not Sasori's poison bypasses her Byakugou. If it doesn't she'd beat him in a difficult battle more often than not. If it does the strongest she beats is Kisame under neutral conditions.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## The Great One (Apr 28, 2017)

Lol She can't even beat White Zetsu she along with Sakura, Sizune, Hinata, Ino, Anko and Samui are bitches of white Zetsus now.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 3


----------



## Troyse22 (Apr 28, 2017)

She loses to almost all.

Obito stomps her
Kisame stomps her
Nagato stomps her
Itachi stomps her
Kakuzu high diffs her

She beats everyone besides those 5

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 28, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame stomps her


 


Troyse22 said:


> Itachi stomps her


He wins but it wouldn't be a stomp at all


----------



## Skaddix (Apr 28, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Besides Itachi, Pain and Obito, I'd say she can beat all of them under normal circumstances.
> 
> Depending on how he plays his cards, Deidara has the potential to give Tsunade the greatest amount of difficulty among the remaining Akatsuki members. Although generally speaking I think Kisame is stronger than Deidara is. So technically, he's the strongest she can defeat.



Really how so...Kisame is a Drain Tank and most of her punching power is chakra manipulation.

Meanwhile we know she has Raiton and Diedara gets hard countered by it...especially when you combine it with her healing.


----------



## Mithos (Apr 28, 2017)

Skaddix said:


> Really how so...Kisame is a Drain Tank and most of her punching power is chakra manipulation.



Tsunade has natural strength in addition to her CES. Besides that, I have a lot of doubts about Kisame absorbing the chakra from her punches/kicks because she gathers and releases chakra at the last second -- that's not enough time for Kisame to absorb it, and he can't do so preemptively because she wouldn't have molded it yet. 

Furthermore, her CES was effective against Madara despite his Rinnegan and chakra-absorbing abilities superior to Kisame's. For example, while Madara had no problems absorbing Onoki's Jinton, he/his clone was apparently unable to do so against Tsunade's punch to his chest. If Madara seemingly couldn't easily nullify her punches with Preta's technique, Kisame isn't. 

Tsunade won't have too much trouble against Kisame's chakra absorption.


----------



## Skaddix (Apr 28, 2017)

Kisame doesn't do anything when he absorbs. Samehada does all the work.


----------



## Idiopodivny (Apr 28, 2017)

Why do people keep making the same threads over and over again??

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Apr 28, 2017)

Skaddix said:


> Kisame doesn't do anything when he absorbs. Samehada does all the work.




Kisame can absorb Chakra without Samehada, he drained Aobas dry in seconds.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Yoko (Apr 29, 2017)

Within the Akatsuku ranks, this is where I'd put her:

1.   Nagato
2.   MS Obito
3.   Itachi
4.   Kisame
5.   Kakuzu
6.   Deidara
7.   Sasori *
8.   Konan *
9.   Tsunade *
10. Hidan

*_ Potentially interchangeable but favoring the existing list's order._

The Dojutsu users are obviously head, shoulders and torso above her - that goes without saying.  Kisame and Kakuzu's range game, AOE attacks and longevity make it unlikely for her to ever get close to them before dying.  Deidara's aerial-bomber attacking style makes it literally impossible for her to actually hit him.  Same goes for Konan - she can attack from the air, not to mention her logia-type body seems immune to physical attacks.  She has a chance against Sasori, but, all things considered, I don't see her outperforming Chiyo + Sakura by a large margin given they had full knowledge and antidote reserves (which significantly tilted the scales in their favor), not to mention the implication that Sasori flat out let them kill him at the end.

All that leaves is Hidan, who is basically as limited as Tsunade is, but lacks her physical strength and regenerative capabilities.  His scythe gives him a small range advantage in CQC, especially when he still had his chain on it (allowing for the awkward attacking style he used against Asuma), but ultimately, between her strength and regen, she would eventually hit and incapacitate him.

Ultimately, she is a one-dimensional linear fighter with average speed and no real offensive versatility or range - things that the majority of Akatsuki members (and pretty much everyone in the Kage-level bracket) have.  She will struggle getting close to any of them, and while her longevity and regenerative capabilities can "keep her in the game" for longer, most of these guys have OHKO techniques that can either straight up bypass her regen (Dojutsu trio, Deidara's C4, Kisame drowning her, to a lesser extent) or can force her to continuously rely on it until she runs out of energy (Kakuzu, Sasori).

Unless we allow for the excessively creative Katsuyu applications I've seen here (Katsuyu armor, undodgeable Amaterasu-speed acid shots, Exodia, etc - none of which have been shown or even implied to exist in the manga), I can't see her definitively beating anyone besides Hidan.  She has a shot at Sasori, Konan and Kakuzu on a good day (especially if she is underestimated or in a no-knowledge scenario) but I'd favor them more often than not simply due to them having more tools at their disposal.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Mr Dicklesworth (Apr 29, 2017)

Vs Hidan - She fodderizes him

Vs Konan - A little harder, but she still beats her comfortably

Vs Deidara - Without Katsuyu, she either loses or beats him with extreme diff. His ranged jutsu is a hard counter to her, so without hundred healings I don't see her being able to get close to him. It's a 50/50 for me, since she could probably one shot him if she closed in successfully. With no restrictions she mid diffs him though

Vs Kakuzu - Same deal as Deidara pretty much, but the fight is slightly more difficult.

Vs Sasori - He's stronger than Deidara and Kakuzu, but I think she beats him easier due to being a better matchup. Sakura was performing well against him even without Chiyo's help, and Tsunade is a much, much better version of Sakura. His poison would do jack shit against her with no restrictions, and that's literally all he has going for him in a fight against someone of her level. She beats him low-mid diff

Vs Kisame - This is where it gets hard. Kisame's raw power can match Tsunade's, and his Samehada Chakra absorbtion could possibly completely screw her. On the other hand though, Tsunade has an immense Chakra reserve, and her healings could probably negate Kisame's samehada effects. From there, it just becomes a contest of strength, which could go 50/50 IMO

Vs Itachi - Against sick Itachi she gets high diffed. Against prime Itachi she gets low-mid diffed

Vs Pain - She does worse than Jiraiya. Maybe could take out 2 bodies at most

Vs Obito - One shot


----------



## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 29, 2017)

Mr Dicklesworth said:


> A little harder, but she still beats her comfortably



She beats her a *little harder *then *Hidan*?... No, dont compare Hidan to Konan there not even on the same league. Tsunade a taijutsu fighter beats a logia type character comfortably?... No, any physical attack Tsunade attempts on Konan will be Ignored by her, the only way she can possibly win is either outlasting which is highly unlikely because Konan haves one of the best reserves in the Akatsuki or summoning Katsuyu which she might do and if she does Konan can still disperse in all directions, fly at high speeds and or use camouflage to hide.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Mr Dicklesworth (Apr 29, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> She beats her a *little harder *then *Hidan*?... No, dont compare Hidan to Konan there not even on the same league. Tsunade a taijutsu fighter beats a logia type character comfortably?... No, any physical attack Tsunade attempts on Konan will be Ignored by her, the only way she can possibly win is either outlasting which is highly unlikely because Konan haves one of the best reserves in the Akatsuki or summoning Katsuyu which she might do and if she does Konan can still disperse in all directions, fly at high speeds and or use camouflage to hide.



She beats her comfortably because Base Jiraiya absolutely clowned her with no effort whatsoever. Konan isn't magically invulnerable to any and all physical attacks because of her Jutsu. Obito still stabbed her with physical weapons and ultimately killed her without even using Genjutsu on her. The only advantage she has against someone so massively above her is prep time, which I'm assuming isn't factored into this.

And since when does Konan have the best reserves in the akatsuki? You're saying she has more Chakra than Kisame, Itachi Pain, Obito, etc? Interesting...


----------



## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 29, 2017)

Mr Dicklesworth said:


> She beats her comfortably because Base Jiraiya absolutely clowned her with no effort whatsoever.


He only beat her because he knew what her weakness (was her sensei for years) was which was oil, and does Tsunade have oil?...no, the only thing she haves access to is Katsuyu's acid.


Mr Dicklesworth said:


> Konan isn't magically invulnerable to any and all physical attacks because of her Jutsu. Obito still stabbed her with physical weapons and ultimately killed her without even using Genjutsu on her.


 
She didint have enough chakra to keep her paper form active, read her saying that and see her paper crumbling away, so Obito was able to stab her and put her in a genjutsu because she was in her human form 


Mr Dicklesworth said:


> The only advantage she has against someone so massively above her is prep time, which I'm assuming isn't factored into this.


  prep? She doesn't need prep to produce thousands of pieces of paper that are hard as steel that she can further increase how lethal it is by changing its shape (shuriken, chakram, spears, arrows, airplanes, paper bombs)


Mr Dicklesworth said:


> And since when does Konan have the best reserves in the akatsuki?


I didint say she had the best...


NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Konan haves one of the best reserves in the Akatsuki


 and ik Nagato, Obito and Kisame have more chakra, sick Itachi definitely doesn't have more, healthy Itachi probably does


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 29, 2017)

Yoko said:


> Within the Akatsuku ranks, this is where I'd put her:
> 
> 1.   Nagato
> 2.   MS Obito
> ...


 Nonsense. Kisame admitted inferiority to the Sannin as a whole, no hype nor feats that Kisame has received in Part 2 has changed that. If anything, it was reinforced in Part 2, due to how powerful Kisame and Deidara view Orochimaru and Tsunade and Orochimaru have been portrayed as being on the same level (they're both also given the same stat score of 35 in Sha no Sho). In fact, Tsunade is the one who briefly bested Orochimaru in combat when they were all handicapped in someway. Not to mention that Deidara stated Sasori was stronger than he was, and Sasori has superior hype (defeating the strongest Kazekage, and taking down a small country) and feats (much more versatile and lethal abilities) than Deidara does. Ranking Tsunade near the bottom of the Akatsuki is also the epitome of downplay.



> The Dojutsu users are obviously head, shoulders and torso above her - that goes without saying.


 Obviously, everyone agrees on this.



> Kisame and Kakuzu's range game, AOE attacks and longevity make it unlikely for her to ever get close to them before dying.


 One of Kisame's long-ranged AoE techniques was easily dodged by Team Guy.  Tsunade's CES would overpower and disperse most of Kisame's Water Release techniques and a single punch or kick from her would kill Kisame. As they did more damage than A's chop did and A can chop off Gyuki's horn. So unless you believe that Kisame is more durable than Gyuki, let alone Madara's ribcage Susanoo, then Kisame is getting busted the hell open and turned to paste.

As for Kakuzu, she can dodge Kakuzu's Fire Release: Intelligent Hard Work as Ino-Shika-Cho did, and base Tsunade has a 3.5 in speed whilst Ino and Shikamaru have a 2.5 and Choji has a 2: so she can obviously dodge it. Hidan also has a 3.5 in speed, and he was capable of keeping up with Kakashi who has a 4.5 in speed: who managed to dodge Wind Release: Pressure Damage despite being distracted beforehand. As for Lightning Release: False Darkness, Shikamaru and Choji were capable of reacting to it by moving their arms, as they had not moved them before the technique was launched. Kakashi also clearly outpaced it in the scans I posted, and Hidan who has the same speed score as base Tsunade, could keep up with him, so Tsunade should be capable of evading it herself. Not to mention this is base Tsunade we are referring to, not SoHT Tsunade who is more powerful than base Tsunade (per Jin no Sho's English and German translations which I can provide if necessary): who could dodge it for sure based on her feats in the Five Kage vs Madara Uchiha battle. She could also kill Kakuzu with a punch or kick as well, unless of course, you believe his Earth Release: Earth Spear is more durable than Gyuki or Madara's ribcage in which case you will need to provide proof.



> Deidara's aerial-bomber attacking style makes it literally impossible for her to actually hit him.


 No, it most certainly does not. She has clear ways of reaching as well as killing Deidara even if he takes to the skies.



> Same goes for Konan - she can attack from the air, not to mention her logia-type body seems immune to physical attacks.


 Look above, and while Konan's Dance of the Shikigami would make her immune to Tsunade's taijutsu. She would still be killed by Katsuyu's Tongue Tooth Sticky Acid, especially if Tsunade boosted it with her SoHT.



> She has a chance against Sasori, but, all things considered, I don't see her outperforming Chiyo + Sakura by a large margin given they had full knowledge and antidote reserves (which significantly tilted the scales in their favor), not to mention the implication that Sasori flat out let them kill him at the end.


 This is probably the only thing I partially agree with you on, however, her SoHT should override the poison anyway.



> All that leaves is Hidan, who is basically as limited as Tsunade is, but lacks her physical strength and regenerative capabilities.  His scythe gives him a small range advantage in CQC, especially when he still had his chain on it (allowing for the awkward attacking style he used against Asuma), but ultimately, between her strength and regen, she would eventually hit and incapacitate him.


 Tsunade is much more versatile than Hidan, I will explain that below.



> Ultimately, she is a one-dimensional linear fighter with average speed and no real offensive versatility or range - things that the majority of Akatsuki members (and pretty much everyone in the Kage-level bracket) have.  She will struggle getting close to any of them, and while her longevity and regenerative capabilities can "keep her in the game" for longer, most of these guys have OHKO techniques that can either straight up bypass her regen (Dojutsu trio, Deidara's C4, Kisame drowning her, to a lesser extent) or can force her to continuously rely on it until she runs out of energy (Kakuzu, Sasori).


 This is false, Jiraiya praised her abilities in battle. She has a 5 in taijutsu, and a 3.5 in speed in base. Sakura was capable of doing this, and we know that Tsunade's own strength is comparable. So her punches and kicks, even if they miss, would decimate a large portion of the landscape in general and would send nearby enemies flying. She taught Sakura how to be evasive and read her enemies' attack patterns in battle. She's also quite analytical, which would be useful for a variety of situations. When she uses the Ninja Art Creation Rebirth - Strength of a Hundred Technique she becomes more powerful in addition to obtaining automatic regenerative capabilities that can regenerate organs and limbs: that she can use to her advantage in battle.

As well as use lethal medical ninjutsu heavily implied to kill Orochimaru. She can partially paralyze her enemies with a touch too.  Kabuto was only capable of countering it due to his high level of intelligence. Meaning most characters would be helpless before it. She has good speed and reflexes as well, as shown in the scans I've provided earlier in which she immediately landed a kick on Madara after a flying Onoki did: who can fly as fast as Deidara on his C1 Bird, and can fly fast enough to evade Gaara's gigantic and monstrous sand arms. Or when she managed tag a Wood Clone using it's humanoid Susanoo, and managed to not get bisected or decapitated in battle against them. Or even better, when she managed to deflect Madara's Fire Release technique whilst Mei was forming a single hand seal and before she could execute her technique. So don't spread nonsense about how she's too slow to tag anyone, and her attacks have no range to them. Especially since she has Katsuyu in her arsenal, who's acid can be used at all ranges.



> Unless we allow for the excessively creative Katsuyu applications I've seen here (Katsuyu armor, undodgeable Amaterasu-speed acid shots, Exodia, etc - none of which have been shown or even implied to exist in the manga), I can't see her definitively beating anyone besides Hidan.  She has a shot at Sasori, Konan and Kakuzu on a good day (especially if she is underestimated or in a no-knowledge scenario) but I'd favor them more often than not simply due to them having more tools at their disposal.


 Tsunade has on-panel had Katsuyu assimilate people inside of her body to protect them from techniques they could not normally survive. There is absolutely nothing "excessively creative" about having Katsuyu pull Tsunade inside of her to protect her from something that would normally kill her. She was also the first one to decide to summon Katsuyu against two human-sized targets and against a behemoth-sized target. So it's IC for her summon Katsuyu in all the fights she's been in, and Katsuyu's acid can cover a good range and could be made much larger due to the link between Tsunade and Katsuyu. Her Tongue Tooth Sticky Acid has also been shown to be a threat to Manda in the scans I provided earlier, and was stated to be able to kill Orochimaru.

In conclusion, this post was not meant to say that Tsunade would decisively win against all Akatsuki members (excluding the dojutsu trio, who she can't beat in any situation unless they're heavily nerfed somehow) no doubt. I simply wanted to illustrate how she definitely has a chance against all of them, as well as point out the flaws in your ranking of the Akatsuki.

Reactions: Winner 4 | Disagree 1


----------



## Veracity (Apr 29, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Nonsense. Kisame admitted inferiority to the Sannin as a whole, no hype nor feats that Kisame has received in Part 2 has changed that. If anything, it was reinforced in Part 2, due to how powerful Kisame and Deidara view Orochimaru and Tsunade and Orochimaru have been portrayed as being on the same level (they're both also given the same stat score of 35 in Sha no Sho). In fact, Tsunade is the one who briefly bested Orochimaru in combat when they were all handicapped in someway. Not to mention that Deidara stated Sasori was stronger than he was, and Sasori has superior hype (defeating the strongest Kazekage, and taking down a small country) and feats (much more versatile and lethal abilities) than Deidara does. Ranking Tsunade near the bottom of the Akatsuki is also the epitome of downplay.
> 
> Obviously, everyone agrees on this.
> 
> ...



This is excellent. I'll hop in the fray in case others decide to downplay Tsunade any further

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 29, 2017)

Tsunade ain't killing Deidara before he ends up airborne when neither Sasuke or Team Gai did it.

Unless you made them start at kissing range.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Apr 29, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Nonsense. Kisame admitted inferiority to the Sannin as a whole, no hype nor feats that Kisame has received in Part 2 has changed that. If anything, it was reinforced in Part 2, due to how powerful Kisame and Deidara view Orochimaru and Tsunade and Orochimaru have been portrayed as being on the same level (they're both also given the same stat score of 35 in Sha no Sho). In fact, Tsunade is the one who briefly bested Orochimaru in combat when they were all handicapped in someway. Not to mention that Deidara stated Sasori was stronger than he was, and Sasori has superior hype (defeating the strongest Kazekage, and taking down a small country) and feats (much more versatile and lethal abilities) than Deidara does. Ranking Tsunade near the bottom of the Akatsuki is also the epitome of downplay.
> 
> Obviously, everyone agrees on this.
> 
> ...




Its definitely interesting to read this, as the whole Sannin>Kisame thing relies solely on statements or hype, but when feats come into play, suddenly they don't matter unless they make the Sannin look good.

It doesn't matter how Kisame views the Sannin, when he has feats proving he's so far out of their league that it's laughable to suggest they can take him on, individually or as a team.

You'd need to restrict Samehada and Suiton for any Sannin to go against Kisame...unless you're gonna suggest that P1 Kabuto>Kisame in CQC


----------



## Serene Grace (Apr 29, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Nonsense. Kisame admitted inferiority to the Sannin as a whole, no hype nor feats that Kisame has received in Part 2 has changed that. If anything, it was reinforced in Part 2, due to how powerful Kisame and Deidara view Orochimaru and Tsunade and Orochimaru have been portrayed as being on the same level (they're both also given the same stat score of 35 in Sha no Sho). In fact, Tsunade is the one who briefly bested Orochimaru in combat when they were all handicapped in someway. Not to mention that Deidara stated Sasori was stronger than he was, and Sasori has superior hype (defeating the strongest Kazekage, and taking down a small country) and feats (much more versatile and lethal abilities) than Deidara does. Ranking Tsunade near the bottom of the Akatsuki is also the epitome of downplay.
> 
> Obviously, everyone agrees on this.
> 
> ...


My god, Isaiah you went beast mode, amazing job bro

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## Veracity (Apr 29, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Its definitely interesting to read this, as the whole Sannin>Kisame thing relies solely on statements or hype, but when feats come into play, suddenly they don't matter unless they make the Sannin look good.
> 
> It doesn't matter how Kisame views the Sannin, when he has feats proving he's so far out of their league that it's laughable to suggest they can take him on, individually or as a team.
> 
> You'd need to restrict Samehada and Suiton for any Sannin to go against Kisame...unless you're gonna suggest that *P1 Kabuto>Kisame in CQC *


You gotta stop with this nonsense.  Nobody takes this seriously and no amount of emotes is going to make up for that.


----------



## Troyse22 (Apr 29, 2017)

Veracity said:


> You gotta stop with this nonsense.  Nobody takes this seriously and no amount of emotes is going to make up for that.




Sorry that one of your beloved Sannin got bested by a jounin level shinobi


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 29, 2017)

Veracity said:


> This is excellent. I'll hop in the fray in case others decide to downplay Tsunade any further


 Thanks, I saw Tsunade listed above only Hidan and below Kisame and I was a bit...





Troyse22 said:


> Its definitely interesting to read this, as the whole Sannin>Kisame thing relies solely on statements or hype, but when feats come into play, suddenly they don't matter unless they make the Sannin look good.
> 
> It doesn't matter how Kisame views the Sannin, when he has feats proving he's so far out of their league that it's laughable to suggest they can take him on, individually or as a team.
> 
> You'd need to restrict Samehada and Suiton for any Sannin to go against Kisame...unless you're gonna suggest that P1 Kabuto>Kisame in CQC


 When will you stop trolling man?



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> My god, Isaiah you went beast mode, amazing job bro


 Lol, thanks.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Apr 29, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Thanks, I saw Tsunade listed above only Hidan and below Kisame and I was a bit...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Trolling? What did I say that's wrong besides the Suiton restriction (which was a joke but I understand that it's hard to tell with me) 

An unrestricted Kisame, in no scenario will lose to a Sannin unless Oro is body snatching, and it's only been countered in canon by sharingan

For Kisame to lose vs a Sannin he'd have to be heavily restricted.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Veracity (Apr 29, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Sorry that one of your beloved Sannin got bested by a jounin level shinobi


That's about as accurate as me saying that Asuma stalemated Kisame in part 1.


----------



## Troyse22 (Apr 29, 2017)

Veracity said:


> That's about as accurate as me saying that Asuma stalemated Kisame in part 1.



You mean when Kakashi saved Asumas ass?

P1 Kisame is superior to P1 Kakashi per Itachis statement and P1 Kakashi is above P1 Asuma.

Sorry but your example has fallen flat. P1 Kabuto is above P1 Tsunade without Katsuyu, Kisame is and always was above Asuma.


----------



## Beyonce (Apr 30, 2017)

`Lazlo said:


> Did you see the weapon hidan utilizes?


He uses a scythe. Close Quarters Combat. Kakashi countered his attacks with a Kunai. The only thing that could give him an edge is his wire, but other than that, Hidan still fought CQC with Kakashi and kept up.



> Also that's nice and dandy but she's not quick enough to bat away 4 different types of ninjutsu being thrown at her at the same time.


Ino-Shika-Cho were able to dodge a lot of his elemental attacks. Tsunade obviously gets hit by a few, but they're not going to be fatal considering they're not that strong and she can just regenerate after being hit. If I recall correctly Gian was only shown to slice rocks. Kakashi took his fuuton mask head on and received minimal damage, and Tsunade was able to counter against Madara's fire, Kakuzu's should be no problem at all. And his water mask has zero feats, although considering the strength of the other masks, it shouldn't be anything special. 



> The mask can fly and evade by being in the air


Tsunade jumped a good distance over a bijuu sized summon with a 100 ton sword, and guided it down with accuracy. Unless these things are flying higher than that (which their attacks would be useless if they were that high) Tsunade can easily tag them.


> , kakazu battled hashirama senju, him battling tsunade isn't going to be hard at all.


That fight was off panel, and who's to say that Kakuzu didn't get massively stomped? There's no indication that he put up a fight, all we know is that he lost and by feats one could assume badly.



> She does need to nullify his attacks, I don't see her tanking multiple ninjutsu being thrown at her.


She can. His ninjutsu isn't powerful at all. She can tank his ninjutsu, and heal right out of it. 



> Cqc isn't a issue... Kakazu body isn't like others and he's basically ganging tsunade in this fight.


You're grasping straws at this point. Tsunade's body isn't like any others, she went through Mabui's transportation, something only AAA and AAAA could only go through. He got obliterated by Naruto's Rasenshuriken which was most likely still under development at the time.



> Knowledge is more on his side then hers, pretty sure he knows who tsunade is and age contributes to that


Tsunade performed an autopsy on Kakuzu's body after the battle, and got a report on him afterwards. Kakuzu probably only knows of her CES and healing, he has absolutely zero clue on her seal. Knowledge goes to Tsunade. 



> he could possibly engage In cqc but its not instant death he's immortal,* shed create a hole in his probably. *


Tsunade's been fighting CQC for years. He gets outclassed when they get close. What do you mean probably? If you're suggesting that his body is more durable than Madara's RC, I'm going to need you to provide proof of that, Tsunade can easily put a hole in him. 



> But with kakazu unique body I could see him having a slight advantage, you also have to take in domu which has put up with great physical damage.



What's this "great physical damage" you speak of? Wasn't it just a paper bomb explosive? The one Sakura tanked. Even if there were more feats, I highly doubt it's anything comparable to Tsunade's. 




> He has water clones, clones period something tsunade cant replicate.


Water clone is non-canon.



> That's me even suggesting he allows her in cqc he could start with his mid range or long range ability and tsunade doesn't know about the hearts thing. So I really don't feel like she has the analytical ability of shikamaru or kakashi to point it out.


Tsunade probably already knows considering she was the one who performed the autopsy. Tsunade's extremely intelligent and has keen observation skills. Refer back to when she heard Orochimaru's heart beat from a couple feet away. And you're implying that even if she did start at mid range, she can't close the distance some how. 



Yoko said:


> Kisame and *Kakuzu's *range game, AOE attacks and longevity make it unlikely for her to ever get close to them before dying.


Kakuzu's longevity isn't anything like Tsunade's. After his 5 masks get destroyed (which is actually easy to do considering Naruto's incomplete FRS, Kakashi's raikiri, and Tenten using the fan were all able to destroy them). Tsunade on the other hand was able to fight with 2 swords going through her spine, and use her byakugo seal for at least 12 hours, and on top of that still had enough chakra to summon Katsuyu (something base Sakura wasn't able to do before her seal) and heal the 5 Kage. Her seal isn't running out anytime soon.


----------



## Yoko (Apr 30, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Nonsense. Kisame admitted inferiority to the Sannin as a whole, no hype nor feats that Kisame has received in Part 2 has changed that.



Purely subjective.

Kisame's feats of casually coughing up oceans, controlling tidal waves of sharks and competing with the second strongest Bijuu easily trumps everything Tsunade has shown and is competitive with Orochimaru and Jiraiya.

Part 1 is also the same part of the manga where Hiruzen was hailed as the strongest Hokage and Tobirama spitting out a small sourceless Suiton was considered amazing.  Part 1 statements don't hold as much water in Part 2.

Lastly, Kisame never fought the Sannin.  He isn't even from the same village, so his "knowledge" is limited to hype and heresay.  *The manga itself has told us that legends from the past are exaggerated and can be surpassed.*



> One of Kisame's long-ranged AoE techniques was easily dodged by Team Guy.



That was him spitting out a water source.  An offensive long range technique includes things like shark missile/bullet and larger variants, shark tidal wave.  And you're missing the point - it is more than just Kisame firing one attack in long range and her dodging it.  It is series of attacks that become progressively harder to dodge when chained together.

I mean, in the very fight you're quoting, Kisame ended up capturing the entirety of team Guy in water spheres and forced Guy to go 6th gate.



> Tsunade's CES would overpower and disperse most of Kisame's Water Release techniques and a single punch or kick from her would kill Kisame. As they did more damage than A's chop did and A can chop off Gyuki's horn. So unless you believe that Kisame is more durable than Gyuki, let alone Madara's ribcage Susanoo, then Kisame is getting busted the hell open and turned to paste.



He doesn't have to be more durable - he just has to survive long enough to regenerate.  He took a hit from V2 Killer Bee (who in base overpowered the very same Raikage you're referencing).



> As for Kakuzu, she can dodge Kakuzu's Fire Release: Intelligent Hard Work as Ino-Shika-Cho did, and base Tsunade has a 3.5 in speed whilst Ino and Shikamaru have a 2.5 and Choji has a 2: so she can obviously dodge it.



Same issue as above - you are missing the point.  Dodging one attack at long range doesn't mean that they could indefinitely dodge barrages of elemental attacks.  They might dodge one, only to get nuked with a follow up blast as they're dodging the first.  This isn't a turn-based RPG.

Just look at what happened to Kakashi - *he dodged one attack only to get caught by another.*  It is the chaining of attacks that makes him dangerous.  Tsunade can dodge a Katon only to get fried by a Raiton.



> Hidan also has a 3.5 in speed, and he was capable of keeping up with Kakashi who has a 4.5 in speed: who managed to dodge Wind Release: Pressure Damage despite being distracted beforehand.



This isn't the first time I see this example, and it is easily one of the worst when trying to equalize Tsunade's speed with faster characters.

Hidan wasn't keeping up with Kakashi - this would imply Kakashi was going on the offensive.  Kakashi just thought he killed a guy who then came back to life and kicked him through a tree.  Hidan immediately lunges at him and Kakashi backs up and goes on the defensive.  He has no reason to go on the offensive when he knows that Hidan could kill him with a drop of blood and when he had no knowledge on Hidan's partner.



> No, it most certainly does not. She has clear ways of reaching as well as killing Deidara even if he takes to the skies.



Not really.  Deidara was dodging Gaara's sand assaults in a desert.  Blobs of acid aren't hitting him.



> This is false, Jiraiya praised her abilities in battle. She has a 5 in taijutsu, and a 3.5 in speed in base. Sakura was capable of doing this, and we know that Tsunade's own strength is comparable. So her punches and kicks, even if they miss, would decimate a large portion of the landscape in general and would send nearby enemies flying.



Punching the ground is not an argument against Kage level characters.  Sending red-shirt enemies flying is not a transferable feat against competent fighters.



> She taught Sakura how to be evasive and read her enemies' attack patterns in battle. She's also quite analytical, which would be useful for a variety of situations.



Telling me Tsunade is evasive doesn't mean anything when all she has done is get excessively hit in every single one of her fights (Kabuto and Madara, multiple times in both).  If anything, her feats imply her to be slower and less evasive (she was the only Kage that got mortally tagged by Susano'o clones, multiple times). 

Her saying she is evasive doesn't give us a greenlight to grant her Sharingan precognition.



> When she uses the Ninja Art Creation Rebirth - Strength of a Hundred Technique she becomes more powerful in addition to obtaining automatic regenerative capabilities that can regenerate organs and limbs: that she can use to her advantage in battle.



We have no idea if it makes her "more powerful" - it has no feats implying such beyond just giving her faster regen.  And again, her saying she can grow new limbs is fine, but she hasn't actually shown it.  It brings to question several things:

1.  How long would it take? Judging by how long her torso wounds were taking to heal, sprouting out a new arm isn't going to be something she can casually do in battle when someone is actively trying to kill her.

2.  What sort of drain will it take on her reserves? Healing torso wounds was taking its toll - sprouting a brand new limb (bones, muscle and all) will be an even more draining process.

It is a stretch to assume it is casually applicable in battle.



> Meaning most characters would be helpless before it. She has good speed and reflexes as well, as shown in the scans I've provided earlier in which she immediately landed a kick on Madara after a flying Onoki did: who can fly as fast as Deidara on his C1 Bird, and can fly fast enough to evade Gaara's gigantic and monstrous sand arms. Or when she managed tag a Wood Clone using it's humanoid Susanoo, and managed to not get bisected or decapitated in battle against them.



You're assuming that Onoki/Raikage were traveling at top speed when it was a team based scenario where they were trying to land a combo hit.  Landing a combo hit with a team does not mean all members of the team are the same speed.

"Managing to not get bisected or decapitated" and the whole "avoiding Genjutsu" off-panel is not a feat.  Madara was toying with them.  Trying to turn it into anything more than that weakens your argument and, quite frankly, makes it look desperate.



> So it's IC for her summon Katsuyu in all the fights she's been in, and Katsuyu's acid can cover a good range and could be made much larger due to the link between Tsunade and Katsuyu.



Katsuyu was not summoned against Madara and served as  a support summon for the majority of the manga (Pain, Juubi).  The one time she was used in offense, she failed miserably.



> Her Tongue Tooth Sticky Acid has also been shown to be a threat to Manda in the scans I provided earlier, and was stated to be able to kill Orochimaru.



Which was casually dodged, with Manda proceeding to man-handle Katsuyu and Gamabunta simultaneously.



> In conclusion, this post was not meant to say that Tsunade would decisively win against all Akatsuki members (excluding the dojutsu trio, who she can't beat in any situation unless they're heavily nerfed somehow) no doubt. I simply wanted to illustrate how she definitely has a chance against all of them, as well as point out the flaws in your ranking of the Akatsuki.



I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'm not interested in debates that get too technical to the extent that the main point is missed.  The takeaway from my post is this - your conclusions are drawn from weak examples.  A summary of several of the things I'm referring to:

1.  Tsunade's 3.5 allows her to hit people significantly faster than her because Hidan kept up with Kakashi who has a Sharingan and a 4.5 so that means speed isn't an issue for her.  Also, Tsunade is really fast because she could land combo hits on Madara with a V2 Raikage that was being lightened by Onoki.

2.  Range is not an issue for Tsunade because ground punches by Sakura sent Juubi blobs flying from a distance.

3.  Tsunade can hit flying enemies with established speed feats because she can jump high and because Katsuyu acid.

4.  Tsunade is evasive because she says she is.

5.  Tsunade can sprout out new limbs in battle because she says she can.

At its core, your argument hinges on the above.  When you take ideas like these and run with them, essentially building your argument on them, it makes for a weak conclusion and a plethora of false equivalencies.

Reactions: Winner 2


----------



## Yoko (Apr 30, 2017)

Beyonce said:


> Kakuzu's longevity isn't anything like Tsunade's.



I know it isn't, and it doesn't have to be.  Kakuzu using elementals is more chakra efficient than Tsunade healing.  Tsunade will run through her higher chakra reserves more quickly by healing than Kakuzu will go through his spamming Raitons and Katons.  Tsunade's regen is a low mileage car whereas Kakuzu's is more gas efficient.

Tsunade took a stab from a Susano'o sword and then immediately by Susano'o shuriken on panel.  By the time she got stabbed twice by the Susano'o clones, she was panting and pretty much depleted, given the Katons she blocked finished off her regen - it takes its toll.

Kakuzu can shoot Raitons and Katons for longer than Tsunade can heal from them - that doesn't mean he has more chakra than Tsunade.  It just means that regeneration is something that eats up her reserves quicker than elementals eat up through his.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 30, 2017)

Damn, too bad i did not see Shikaku's comment before. I would've found some very good use of it eventually . 

I should add something to the Hidan keeping up with kakashi's thing that i see being used too much. Kakashi back then, if i'm not mistaken with the order in wich happened, was severely handicapped and starting to feel strain. He basically commented he needed to ends this quick after using like, 3 Chidoris and Sharingan at the same time.

Remember how badly Sharingan and Chidori bothers Kakashi, and the limit of Chidoris he told Sasuke he could use, and not even like that Hidan could circunvent the entier tier of speed Kakashi has over him.

Gonna add more to this post if needed.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Yoko (Apr 30, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Damn, too bad i did not see Shikaku's comment before. I would've found some very good use of it eventually . Gonna add more to this post if needed.



I feel that the quote is super relevant here because it seems as if people forget that "Sannin" is a title they earned by losing a three-vs-one effort against Hanzo - at its core, the title means nothing and is probably one of the best examples of an overhyped legend.  They may have accomplished things afterwards on an individual basis (Sage Mode, Byakugo, Hydra / body modifications), but that had nothing to do with their Sannin-ness rather than their individual feats.

Even if that Shikaku quote never happened, the fact that we're using Part 1 hype to ignore everything that Kisame has done since then and automatically make him inferior to all the Sannin as if it were definitive, manga fact is odd to me.  Is he not allowed to improve over the time skip? I mean, he wasn't hunting Bijuu until after the time-skip, and he defeated Roshi and a gimped Hachibi, not to mention the hype about him being a tail-less Bijuu.

Do none of those things matter because Kisame thought he was inferior to the Sannin in 400 chapters ago, a statement that was likely based purely on hype / heresay / things he heard from other people?



> I should add something to the Hidan keeping up with kakashi's thing that i see being used too much. Kakashi back then, if i'm not mistaken with the order in wich happened, was severely handicapped and starting to feel strain. He basically commented he needed to ends this quick after using like, 3 Chidoris and Sharingan at the same time.
> 
> Remember how badly Sharingan and Chidori bothers Kakashi, and the limit of Chidoris he told Sasuke he could use, and not even like that Hidan could circunvent the entier tier of speed Kakashi has over him.



Forget the strain - let's just focus on the actual scenario here, beyond Kakashi's chakra.

1.  Kakashi killed Kakuzu, rushes at Hidan, then gets kicked through a tree by the same guy he just thought he killed.  Aforementioned guy that kicked him through the tree then sprouts four new bodies from his body.

2.  Hidan bum-rushes Kakashi.  Kakashi knows Hidan just needs one drop of blood to kill him and decides to back-up.

What exactly happened above? Is Hidan "keeping up" with Kakashi? Or is Kakashi defensively and strategically backing up against superior numbers? What exactly did people expect Kakashi to do here? Charge against a guy he has no knowledge on who sprouted four additional bodies as well as the guy who just needs one drop of blood to kill him? What exactly are people saying here? That Kakashi should have rushed into a 6 vs. 1 scenario with no knowledge on Kakuzu just to prove he is faster than Hidan? It makes no sense.

The second example people like to use is when *Kakashi dodged a Katon* and then got *blindsided by Hidan in midair*.  Kakashi wards off Hidan with a couple of clashes (*with Hidan even complimenting Kakashi*) and somehow it turns into "Hidan kept up with Kakashi."

It was Kakashi that was keeping up with Hidan.  Hidan was going on the offensive and Kakashi was backing up in both exchanges.  He is not one to charge in recklessly, especially when he is outnumbered and lacks knowledge on one of his enemies.

I mean, *Kakashi dodged Zabuza's attack and disarmed him with a single blow*.  He also did a *similar thing* to *Zabuza* in *Part 1* (albeit Zabuza was "heartbroken" over Haku - but Kakashi thought Sasuke was dead and was also running on empty, so it was a two-way street).  People  ignore this and instead opt for the Hidan example because it is more convenient.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 30, 2017)

Yoko said:


> I feel that the quote is super relevant here because it seems as if people forget that "Sannin" is a title they earned by losing a three-vs-one effort against Hanzo - at its core, the title means nothing and is probably one of the best examples of an overhyped legend.  They may have accomplished things afterwards on an individual basis (Sage Mode, Byakugo, Hydra / body modifications), but that had nothing to do with their Sannin-ness rather than their individual feats.
> 
> Even if that Shikaku quote never happened, the fact that we're using Part 1 hype to ignore everything that Kisame has done since then and automatically make him inferior to all the Sannin as if it were definitive, manga fact is odd to me.  Is he not allowed to improve over the time skip? I mean, he wasn't hunting Bijuu until after the time-skip, and he defeated Roshi and a gimped Hachibi, not to mention the hype about him being a tail-less Bijuu.
> 
> Do none of those things matter because Kisame thought he was inferior to the Sannin in 400 chapters ago, a statement that was likely based purely on hype / heresay / things he heard from other people?



In this part we agree entirely. I'm of the ones that says it's not Tsunade/Jiraiya/Oro themselves that are overestimated, with the exception of some things we allow them and don't allow for others. Like the combined effort in breaking Madara's Susano'o and everybody keeping up with V1 Onoki. Since this holds the same merit as the combined effort of Kakashi, Gaara, Lee and Minato keeping up with 8th Gated Gai and Gaara being able to lift his arm before gai closed in, blind kakashi Kamui the sphere out and Minato teleporting twice before Gai moved an inch when he couldn't do so against Juudara.

If we take the Gokage's feat individually, then Gaara's speed is god level. Combined efforts simply ignore everything in order to happen.

But i moved away from my point making an example. I've always said it's their title that is overestimated more than they themselves. And often leads to Jiraiya hype to transfer to Tsunade hype, for example. When Jiraiya and Tsunade are different individuals.


----------



## Yoko (Apr 30, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> In this part we agree entirely. I'm of the ones that says it's not Tsunade/Jiraiya/Oro themselves that are overestimated, with the exception of some things we allow them and don't allow for others. Like the combined effort in breaking Madara's Susano'o and everybody keeping up with V1 Onoki. Since this holds the same merit as the combined effort of Kakashi, Gaara, Lee and Minato keeping up with 8th Gated Gai and Gaara being able to lift his arm before gai closed in, blind kakashi Kamui the sphere out and Minato teleporting twice before Gai moved an inch when he couldn't do so against Juudara.



Don't forget the kunai feats from that same showdown, which I mentioned in another thread - Minato can throw kunai faster than Kakashi's single Kamui and fast enough to intercept 8th gate Guy.  Kakashi can throw kunai as fast, if not faster, than Madara's truth seekers and faster than his and Obito's double Kamui.  I mean, almost every character has nitpick-able feats that can be presented out of context as something more than they actually were supposed to be taken as in the manga.




> But i moved away from my point making an example. I've always said it's their title that is overestimated more than they themselves. And often leads to Jiraiya hype to transfer to Tsunade hype, for example. When Jiraiya and Tsunade are different individuals.



It is why I am not a fan of titles to begin with.  "Kage level" ranges anywhere from Part 1 Old Hiruzen to Hashirama to EoS Naruto just like "Akatsuki level" can mean anything from Nagato, Obito and Itachi to Konan and Hidan and "Sannin level" ranges anywhere from Part 1 Rusty Tsunade to SM Jiraiya to War Orochimaru that can control all the Edo Hokages. 

It is being used as a medium through which to lump characters with large disparities in powers between them under the same umbrella (somehow making their accomplishments and overall power standing interchangeable).

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


----------



## Santoryu (Apr 30, 2017)

Kakashi's encounter with Hidan was more representative of the former's ability to momentarily keep pace with two Akatsuki members than being an indicator of equivalence between the fighters. An injured, chakra exhausted Kakashi evades Kakuzu's attack and then reacts to Hidan's subsequent attack despite being in mid-air with his back turned at one point, hence the praise his opponent lavished upon him.

The anime does extend the battle somewhat, so perhaps the view that Hidan was "keeping up" stems from there.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Ishmael (Apr 30, 2017)

Idiopodivny said:


> Why do people keep making the same threads over and over again??




Lol? Why do you open threads just to bitch and not contribute anything useful in them?

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 30, 2017)

@Yoko 

I didn't see you answered to the part of Kakashi i talked about. I agree with all the points, though. Especially with the titles. It's exactly how i view things and not taking merit off the Sannin, because they are great shinobis, i always say any current Akatsuki being there, even Hidan, i guess, would've gotten the title. The title itself pales in comparison to what Tsunade, Jiraiya and Orochimaru really are, imo. 

But matchups are matchups. And even if we think the three Sannin are equals, it makes no sense for Tsunade to be in Jiraiya's league solely with her combat abilities because, adding her support abilities would make her way above her peers. Imo one vs one, assuming the three are equal (They aren't, i hold Jiraiya as the strongest of the three), J-man and Oro should be above her and equal to her overall, adding her support abilities.

Also, Santoryu gave also a good answer for Kakashi there. It's something i've also called upon (In fact, another one of the reasons i think they are overestimated is downplaying others feat to draw a comparison. Kakashi handling two Akatsuki is a prime example, like Gai's ability to dodge genjutsu when all of a sudden anyone can dodge it. Similar to the past trend of "If X can, Susano'o can". But i think this is irrelevant to mention now. But just wanted to add it to add more to my view on Kakashi's feats (So, hope nobody feels as if i'm saying it directly to someone). I feel his accomplishment is either not being well understood or being downplayed to make a point when, in reality, what Kakashi did was something i only can see Jiraiya replicating if we consider his creative usage of clones. Fending off two akatsuki members it's not an easy task.

And i don't hop in the "If Kakashi could, Tsunade certainly can!" here. They are different and assuming this, is directly downplaying Kakashi's feats, speed and tactics. Because it's like saying what he did it's nothing great. Wich would be a bit of double standard because Tsunade making part 1 Naruto lose control with a finger is something used in her fights against powerful characters. Again, adding examples to further my point and not calling out anyone. Have to say this because i have Tsunade fans i appreciate and don't want them offended.

That 3.5 speed tier never kept up with the 4.5 tier. The 3.5 speed tier couldn't tag a Kakashi without being at his peak and with outside help.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Apr 30, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> one of the reasons i think they are overestimated is downplaying others feat to draw a comparison.




I don't think you realize just how right you are.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Coolest Guy! 2


----------



## Charmed (Apr 30, 2017)

Only Sick Orochimaru, Hidan and Zetsu, the rest overwhelm her.

*Pain *beats her without even trying, Animal Path alone is enough, though shura blitzes her.
*Obito* Kamui, Genjutsu, MS Sharingan + Normal Sharingan.
*Itachi* MS Sharingan, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, she get near Itachi = Totsuka blitz
*Konan* She asphyxiates Tsunade or cuts her in pieces, or blows her up.
*Sasori* Byakugou and Sozo Saisei, will not take the poison out of her system, she will be paralyzed and won't be able to control chakra.
*Kakuzu* He's a multitasker with his 5 hearts, so he's attacking Tsunade from 5 different angles at the same time, thus overwhelming her.
*Kisame *Drains her inside waterdome, because she is a CQC ninja, she gets caught inside this jutsu with ease.
*Deidara* Long ranged and C4 should do the trick.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 30, 2017)

Yoko said:


> Purely subjective.


 So Kisame's own statement is subjective?



> Kisame's feats of casually coughing up oceans, controlling tidal waves of sharks and competing with the *second strongest Bijuu* easily trumps everything Tsunade has shown and is competitive with Orochimaru and Jiraiya.


 The bold is objectively false, he didn't compete with Gyuki at all. He was competing with a restricted Killer B who didn't want to go TBM on purpose because he didn't want to harm his friends and reveal his location. Yet despite that, Kisame still had some difficulty with Killer B despite being the worst match-up possible for him. Tsunade had the best performance out of the Five Kage alongside Onoki against Madara Uchiha (who praised her abilities), and saved nearly the entirety of Konohgakure from Pain's second strongest technique. That trumps anything Kisame has ever done by a mile.



> Part 1 is also the same part of the manga where Hiruzen was hailed as the strongest Hokage and Tobirama spitting out a small sourceless Suiton was considered amazing.  Part 1 statements don't hold as much water in Part 2.


 The only part of that statement that was retconned was Hiruzen being stronger than Hashirama, and that was explained in Part 2 when Kabuto stated that Hashirama's power had faded into legends and myths due to how unbelievable it was. Jin no Sho (which is authored by Kishimoto btw), heavily implies that Hiruzen is stronger than Tobirama and nothing has contradicted Hiruzen being stronger than Minato and Tobirama *in his prime*.



> Lastly, Kisame never fought the Sannin.  He isn't even from the same village, so his "knowledge" is limited to hype and heresay.  *The manga itself has told us that legends from the past are exaggerated and can be surpassed.*


 The fact is, Kishimoto had Jiraiya nearly defeat Kisame with a single move, admit inferiority to the Sannin as a whole, hold Orochimaru in incredibly high regard, and give him a lower stat total than any of the Sannin in Sha no Sho: which although is not an end-all it can be used as supplementary evidence. Shikaku's one statement isn't changing the fact that Kisame was clearly illustrated as inferior.



> That was him spitting out a water source.  An offensive long range technique includes things like shark missile/bullet and larger variants, shark tidal wave.  And you're missing the point - it is more than just Kisame firing one attack in long range and her dodging it.  It is series of attacks that become progressively harder to dodge when chained together.


 She can avoid the water source, and can disperse the water with a punch before it even hits her. Not to mention Katsuyu would wall nearly Kisame's whole arsenal.



> I mean, in the very fight you're quoting, Kisame ended up capturing the entirety of team Guy in water spheres and forced Guy to go 6th gate.


 Yeah, and Guy killed him in five seconds once he went Sixth Gate.



> He doesn't have to be more durable - he just has to survive long enough to regenerate.  He took a hit from V2 Killer Bee (who in base overpowered the very same Raikage you're referencing).


 Killer B didn't overpower V2 A, he overpowered V1 A, and the only reason Kisame survived that is because he was able to absorb the chakra and use it to regenerate: something he cannot do against Tsunade since she is not covered in a chakra cloak.



> Same issue as above - you are missing the point.  Dodging one attack at long range doesn't mean that they could indefinitely dodge barrages of elemental attacks.  They might dodge one, only to get nuked with a follow up blast as they're dodging the first.  This isn't a turn-based RPG.
> 
> Just look at what happened to Kakashi - *he dodged one attack only to get caught by another.*  It is the chaining of attacks that makes him dangerous.  Tsunade can dodge a Katon only to get fried by a Raiton.


 She can dodge his initial technique, and then getting hit by a second or third won't do much because she can regenerate from it. She fought against Madara's Susanoo Wood Clones for several hours (it went from being light outside to dark outside), and could fight despite being impaled by Susanoo swords lodged into her spinal cord. You have provided me with no reason to believe she is getting overwhelmed and put down by Kakuzu's techniques.



> This isn't the first time I see this example, and it is easily one of the worst when trying to equalize Tsunade's speed with faster characters.
> 
> Hidan wasn't keeping up with Kakashi - this would imply Kakashi was going on the offensive.  Kakashi just thought he killed a guy who then came back to life and kicked him through a tree.  Hidan immediately lunges at him and Kakashi backs up and goes on the defensive.  He has no reason to go on the offensive when he knows that Hidan could kill him with a drop of blood and when he had no knowledge on Hidan's partner.


 How does this change the fact that Kakashi wasn't fast enough to completely evade Hidan's assault?



> Not really.  Deidara was dodging Gaara's sand assaults in a desert.  Blobs of acid aren't hitting him.


 Deidara doesn't usually fly that high unless he has to, as seen in his fight with Hebi Sasuke in which he fought not that far above ground. There's also the fact that Tsunade could help Katsuyu create a much larger amount of acid akin to what she did with Onoki's Dust Release.



> Punching the ground is not an argument against Kage level characters.  Sending red-shirt enemies flying is not a transferable feat against competent fighters.


 Seriously? Did you even read the fight between Tsunade and Orochimaru and Kabuto? Or this one? It is a perfectly transferable feat, considering it can be done with a single punch or kick and send everyone nearby flying. You criticize my arguments, yet, you're over here saying "Lol they're Kage level, so they can counter it" which is very far from an argument to begin with.



> Telling me Tsunade is evasive doesn't mean anything when all she has done is get excessively hit in every single one of her fights (Kabuto and Madara, multiple times in both).  If anything, her feats imply her to be slower and less evasive (she was the only Kage that got mortally tagged by Susano'o clones, multiple times).


 Honestly, your constant downplay is getting a bit annoying. Jiraiya stated that she was rusty when she fought Kabuto, and Kabuto was on par (per Orochimaru, Jiraiya, and Kakashi's statements) with Kakashi at that point. Also, Tsunade didn't evade purposely against Madara because she was using her regeneration to her advantage, she literally stated that in the fight. I even provided you with a scan of her saying such, yet this is your reply? Mei didn't get tagged because she's a long-range fighter, and even then she was about to get killed. Gaara didn't get tagged because he's a long-range fighter too and has his Shield of Sand. A didn't get tagged because he's the fastest man alive, and Onoki can fly. So using this as a means of suggesting she is less evasive or slower compared to everyone else is literally nothing more than downplay.



> Her saying she is evasive doesn't give us a greenlight to grant her Sharingan precognition.


 I never said that?



> We have no idea if it makes her "more powerful" - it has no feats implying such beyond just giving her faster regen.  And again, her saying she can grow new limbs is fine, but she hasn't actually shown it.  It brings to question several things:


 It's stated that it makes her more powerful, and after she activates it she starts displaying speed feats that go beyond that of what you'd expect a 3.5 to be able to do. Again, do you want me to provide you with databook translations? The line "one's own power rises" is said at the bottom and after it describes the regeneration aspect. So it certainly wasn't referring to her regeneration at all.



> 1.  How long would it take? Judging by how long her torso wounds were taking to heal, sprouting out a new arm isn't going to be something she can casually do in battle when someone is actively trying to kill her.


 Maybe not casually, but if the ability wasn't useful in battle she wouldn't have bothered to bring it up in the first place.



> 2.  What sort of drain will it take on her reserves? Healing torso wounds was taking its toll - sprouting a brand new limb (bones, muscle and all) will be an even more draining process.


 It was only taking it's toll after a long period of time, and several internal organs were ruptured in the process when that happened. She also quickly healed from having her spinal cord pierced, which is bone, so it shouldn't take that long.



> It is a stretch to assume it is casually applicable in battle.


 Not at all, it's a stretch to assume it's not applicable in battle when it's the reason she states she is "immortal" in battle and cannot die as long as that technique is active.



> You're assuming that Onoki/Raikage were traveling at top speed when it was a team based scenario where they were trying to land a combo hit.  Landing a combo hit with a team does not mean all members of the team are the same speed.


 Where is the proof that Onoki wasn't traveling at top speed? Where was it stated by Onoki or A that they were about to coordinate an attack with Tsunade and that it wasn't improvised? In fact, it'd make sense to fly faster than slower so that A's chop will have more force behind it and deal more damage as well as catch Madara in the air before he lands.



> "Managing to not get bisected or decapitated" and the whole "avoiding Genjutsu" off-panel is not a feat.  Madara was toying with them.  Trying to turn it into anything more than that weakens your argument and, quite frankly, makes it look desperate.


Except despite that, we see them clearly trying to kill them? I'm not saying they were going all-out, but acting like Tsunade and Onoki being the only ones who weren't about to die isn't impressive is what weakens your argument.



> Katsuyu was not summoned against Madara and served as  a support summon for the majority of the manga (Pain, Juubi).  The one time she was used in offense, she failed miserably.


 In the scan I posted, Tsunade was about to summon Katsuyu against Madara's CBS when she used a hand seal. She failed miserably against Manda because he's Manda, and Manda is faster than any of the Akatsuki members she is being put up against so that is a poor counter-argument. This also didn't counter me suggesting that Tsunade can make it even larger if necessary.



> Which was casually dodged, with Manda proceeding to man-handle Katsuyu and Gamabunta simultaneously.


 Look above.



> I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'm not interested in debates that get too technical to the extent that the main point is missed.  The takeaway from my post is this - your conclusions are drawn from weak examples.  A summary of several of the things I'm referring to:


 Your entire post in of itself sounded like nothing more than the usual downplay me and other posters see frequently from the few people who usually underrate Tsunade. The main point was not missed at all, I was simply telling you how Tsunade stands a chance against them all. At no point did I say that she decimates all Akatsuki members.



> 1. Tsunade's 3.5 allows her to hit people significantly faster than her because Hidan kept up with Kakashi who has a Sharingan and a 4.5 so that means speed isn't an issue for her.  Also, Tsunade is really fast because she could land combo hits on Madara with a V2 Raikage that was being lightened by Onoki.


 Did I say that Tsunade could hit people *significantly* faster than her? Where are you getting this from? I simply said she is fast enough to keep up with people faster than her, which has been shown throughout the entirety of the manga in which slower characters were able to react to and keep up with much faster characters. A prime example being in which Suigetsu, Jugo, and 3T Sasuke were able to keep up to some extent with a man hailed as physically faster and more reflexive than Minato. Yet, I'm supposed to believe that anyone who is depicted as faster than Tsunade, is incapable of being tagged by her and will easily dodge her entire assault? Arguments like these are the reason many posters believe speed is wanked, some people put way too much emphasis on it. I also said nothing about V2 A, how fast A was moving was dependent on Onoki, and Onoki is slower than even V1 A, which is why I only mentioned Onoki's speed and not A's. Why don't you actually read what I've posted?



> 2.  Range is not an issue for Tsunade because ground punches by Sakura sent Juubi blobs flying from a distance.


 That everyone in the battlefield marveled at, and has shown to be effective before against Orochimaru, Kabuto, and Kakashi.



> 3.  Tsunade can hit flying enemies with established speed feats because she can jump high and because Katsuyu acid.


 Which was literally shown to be useful against Manda and Madara. So don't act like the statement is ridiculous at all.



> 4.  Tsunade is evasive because she says she is.


 Tsunade's own words are more reliable than your misconstrued and subjective perception of her feats.



> 5.  Tsunade can sprout out new limbs in battle because she says she can.


 Look above.



> At its core, your argument hinges on the above.  When you take ideas like these and run with them, essentially building your argument on them, it makes for a weak conclusion and a plethora of false equivalencies.


 Ideas? I literally only repeated what characters themselves stated and/or have shown and have provided manga scans to back up my argument. I've also offered to provide you with databook translations, but I'm not so sure if it'd be worth it considering how you responded to my current argument.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Serene Grace (Apr 30, 2017)

Yoko said:


> He took a hit from V2 Killer Bee (who in base overpowered the very same Raikage you're referencing)


Kisame didn't take the full damage of Bees V2 latriat. Samehada absorbed some of the chakra before the latriat reached Kisame, which reduced the overall damage severely()(). , . And this was while he absorbed chakra prior to that on two different occasions()()

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Yoko (Apr 30, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> So Kisame's own statement is subjective?



No.  What is subjective is you saying "no hype nor feats that Kisame has received in Part 2 has changed that."



> Tsunade had the best performance out of the Five Kage alongside Onoki against Madara Uchiha (who praised her abilities), and saved nearly the entirety of Konohgakure from Pain's second strongest technique. That trumps anything Kisame has ever done by a mile.



Again, subjective.  And saving Konoha is a noncombat feat, I'm not sure how it is relevant.



> The fact is, Kishimoto had Jiraiya nearly defeat Kisame with a single move, admit inferiority to the Sannin as a whole



Kisame could spit out an ocean, have sharks eat up the toad stomach - a plethora of possibilities from his known moveset.  Only issue being he either didn't have them in Part 1 or that they were not team friendly moves and would hurt / compromise / drown Itachi in the process.



> Give him a lower stat total than any of the Sannin in Sha no Sho: which although is not an end-all it can be used as supplementary evidence.



Kazekage Gaara has a lower stat total than Shizune.  It is not supplementary evidence in the slightest, especially when some stats matter more than others.



> Killer B didn't overpower V2 A, he overpowered V1 A



No he didn't - *Raikage's hair very clearly spiked up between panels.*



> She can dodge his initial technique, and then getting hit by a second or third won't do much because she can regenerate from it.



And regeneration takes its toll.  Having more chakra is great, but regeneration eats up those reserves at a faster rate than a casual elemental blast does for Kisame or Kakuzu.



> How does this change the fact that Kakashi wasn't fast enough to completely evade Hidan's assault?



Hidan lunges at Kakashi - Kakashi backs up and parries, Kakuzu launches a surprise Futon, and Kakashi dodges the brunt of it.  Hidan never hit Kakashi.



> Deidara doesn't usually fly that high unless he has to, as seen in his fight with Hebi Sasuke in which he fought not that far above ground.



It is still well beyond Tsunade and any CQC fighter's range (bar Guy, who has missile attacks).  Hebi Sasuke, who has wings / one wing and also has a long range move in Chidori Eiso, would not have had to come up with such a troublesome strategy to hit Deidara if the solution was "just jump high."

He had to kick off his sword, jump high, use whatever aerial boost his wing gave him _and_ shoot out a CS2 enhanced Chidori Eiso to hit Deidara, and it only worked because Deidara was taken off guard that he avoided his land mines.



> There's also the fact that Tsunade could help Katsuyu create a much larger amount of acid akin to what she did with Onoki's Dust Release.



Deidara was dodging Gaara's sand assaults (which he can fully control and change direction of in midair) in a desert, which trumps an fan fiction combo moves she has with Katsuyu.



> Seriously? Did you even read the fight between Tsunade and Orochimaru and Kabuto? Or this one?



I did, and they all casually dodged her assault, which is exactly what will happen if she tries to hit anyone in the "Kage" tier.  None were knocked off balance or hindered in any way.



> Jiraiya stated that she was rusty when she fought Kabuto, and Kabuto was on par (per Orochimaru, Jiraiya, and Kakashi's statements) with Kakashi at that point. Also, Tsunade didn't evade purposely against Madara because she was using her regeneration to her advantage, she literally stated that in the fight.



So what are you basing Tsunade's alleged evasiveness on, beyond a statement she made about herself?



> I even provided you with a scan of her saying such, yet this is your reply? Mei didn't get tagged because she's a long-range fighter, and even then she was about to get killed. Gaara didn't get tagged because he's a long-range fighter too and has his Shield of Sand. A didn't get tagged because he's the fastest man alive, and Onoki can fly. So using this as a means of suggesting she is less evasive or slower compared to everyone else is literally nothing more than downplay.



Thank you for citing every single reason why I believe Tsunade will struggle with long range fighters.  She can't get close to them without sustaining serious damage whereas they can sit back and launch ranged missiles without getting hurt.



> It's stated that it makes her more powerful, and after she activates it she starts displaying speed feats that go beyond that of what you'd expect a 3.5 to be able to do.



Again, purely subjective.  Every single one of her assaults against Madara were a collaborative effort, so saying "she kept up with the Raikage which means she must be as fast as him" doesn't work.



> Maybe not casually, but if the ability wasn't useful in battle she wouldn't have bothered to bring it up in the first place.
> 
> It was only taking it's toll after a long period of time, and several internal organs were ruptured in the process when that happened. She also quickly healed from having her spinal cord pierced, which is bone, so it shouldn't take that long.



Madara, a Sage Mode user with Hashirama's regen (which was expressly stated to be similar to Byakugo) had to *reattach his arm when he lost it* - he didn't sprout out a new one.  Not sure why we should give Tsunade the benefit of the doubt.



> Not at all, it's a stretch to assume it's not applicable in battle when it's the reason she states she is "immortal" in battle and cannot die as long as that technique is active.



Hyperbole.



> Where is the proof that Onoki wasn't traveling at top speed? Where was it stated by Onoki or A that they were about to coordinate an attack with Tsunade and that it wasn't improvised?



Because it was a team effort.  If Raikage hit Madara and sent him flying too fast before Tsunade could get to that spot, the combo attack would not have happened.

Tsunade is nowhere near the speed of the Raikage, let alone in Raiton armor forms, and even a further cry away from Onoki-lightened Raikage.



> Except despite that, we see them clearly trying to kill them? I'm not saying they were going all-out, but acting like Tsunade and Onoki being the only ones who weren't about to die isn't impressive is what weakens your argument.



I don't have an argument, I was never making one in regards to this - I am telling you to give me one.  Telling me Tsunade did a bunch of cool anti-Genjutsu stuff and dodged Susano'o off-panel is not an argument - it is conjecture that you're trying to translate into a feat. The burden of proof is on you to show me what you're saying is true.

It's like arbitrarily giving Kakashi random elemental jutsu because he is known to have over 1000, or giving Hiruzen every jutsu in Konoha because he was rumored to have it, only in your example, it is worse because it wasn't implied Tsunade did anything except get stabbed repeatedly off-panel whereas nobody else did.



> In the scan I posted, Tsunade was about to summon Katsuyu against Madara's CBS when she used a hand seal.



Based on what? Tsunade forms a hand seal and you assume it must have been Katsuyu?



> Did I say that Tsunade could hit people *significantly* faster than her? Where are you getting this from?



You're using Hidan sharing her speed bracket to imply she can hit people like Kakashi (who is significantly faster than her and has Sharingan precog).



> A prime example being in which Suigetsu, Jugo, and 3T Sasuke were able to keep up to some extent with a man hailed as physically faster and more reflexive than Minato.



Off-panel interceptions (Suigetsu and Jugo blocking Darui and Raikage) are consistently done for dramatic purposes.  That speed is never again replicated in battles.  See Kakashi's dramatic entrances against Deva Realm, Itachi / Kisame, Haku intercepting Kakashi's Raikiri charge from five feet away despite being on the other side of the bridge, etc.

Sasuke is an established speedster and has Sharingan precognition, which was what allowed him to dodge that attack.  Tsunade does not have his speed nor his eye.



> I also said nothing about V2 A, how fast A was moving was dependent on Onoki, and Onoki is slower than even V1 A, which is why I only mentioned Onoki's speed and not A's.



No - Raikage is wearing Onoki as a backpack.  It is Raikage's speed, which Onoki is making even faster by making the Raikage lighter and more gravity defying.  It is not Onoki's speed.  It is Raikage's speed plus Onoki's boost, which was why Raikage was moving even faster than he was before.



> That everyone in the battlefield marveled at, and has shown to be effective before against Orochimaru, Kabuto, and Kakashi.



Orochimaru and Kabuto casually dodged her and were no way impeded by it, which is my point - it isn't effective against competent fighters.  Kakashi was sparring with Sakura & Naruto to gauge their improvement - he sat underground and waited for them to figure out where he was.

And people marveling at her strength has absolutely nothing to do with them being unable to dodge it.  Yes, she is strong and yes you cannot afford to get hit by her.  That was never the point - the point was that punching the ground isn't going to knock people off balance like it did against Part 1 Naruto.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Veracity (Apr 30, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> You mean when Kakashi saved Asumas ass?
> 
> P1 Kisame is superior to P1 Kakashi per Itachis statement and P1 Kakashi is above P1 Asuma.
> 
> Sorry but your example has fallen flat. P1 Kabuto is above P1 Tsunade without Katsuyu, Kisame is and always was above Asuma.



Yeah because im using the same poor logic you're using to make conclusions. Like taking an isolated situation and ignoring all variables to spew nonsense. 

Funny that you tend to say that Kisame's part 2 feats trump his portrayal in Part 1 yet don't do the same for Tsunade. Her Part 2 feats are way better and unlike Kisame there is an actual reason backed by the manga.

So yeah everytime you sprout disingenuous statements like Tsuande having trouble against Kabuto it leaves you wide open for Asuma = Kisame.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 30, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Damn, too bad i did not see Shikaku's comment before. I would've found some very good use of it eventually .



Lol Shikaku's statement means what?


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 30, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Lol Shikaku's statement means what?



That legends can, indeed, be misleading and shouldn't be taken so literally. 

And it would've allowed me to use it trolling as well. As i used to use the "You overestimate me, in the end i only failed" in Konoha Library.

In those times, and not exaggerating, more than 5 Itachi threads used to spawn daily so the day Itachi said that, it was cool to make a thread there. But that thread might be far to find.

And it also fits with my reasoning. That discussion we had of the veteran player legend vs the new player that exceeds or matches the veteran.

The veteran will get more praise for his past deeds.Doesn't mean the veteran is better than the new one, therefore, the praise won't make him better than the young one. In Kisame's case, who possibly never saw Jiraiya fighting, he might've been feeling exactly like Shikamaru and his team when they faced GinKin. Because in reality, Kisame's feats poses at the very least a hard fight and even beat a Sannin.

In this case, Tsunade. Even though matchups also helps.

Aside from that, it is also a statement to help feats as the same Kishimoto is indicating us that indeed, legends can be overrated,

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Veracity (Apr 30, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> That legends can, indeed, be misleading and shouldn't be taken so literally.
> 
> And it would've allowed me to use it trolling as well. As i used to use the "You overestimate me, in the end i only failed" in Konoha Library.
> 
> ...



Oh okay. As long as the Sannin aren't brought into this


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 30, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Oh okay. As long as the Sannin aren't brought into this



Well, the discussion of the veterans vs the new players featured the Sannin vs Masters . I also edited this.

_In Kisame's case, who possibly never saw Jiraiya fighting, he might've been feeling exactly like Shikamaru and his team when they faced GinKin. Because in reality, Kisame's feats poses at the very least a hard fight and even beat a Sannin. _**(Depending on matchup. I don't see him beating Jiraiya). Oro and Tsunade is debatable, imo.)**

Not to take credit off the Sannin, of course. Their feats are enough to warrant their solid position as one of the bests. I just don't go much about past fame over feats when two shinobis have shown to be generally on the same level or in Kisame's case, not being "low diffed by either sannin just because Jiraiya".

But like i said, i hold the Sannin in their position for their feats. Not the title.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 30, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Well, the discussion of the veterans vs the new players featured the Sannin vs Masters . I also edited this.
> 
> _In Kisame's case, who possibly never saw Jiraiya fighting, he might've been feeling exactly like Shikamaru and his team when they faced GinKin. Because in reality, Kisame's feats poses at the very least a hard fight and even beat a Sannin. _**(Depending on matchup. I don't see him beating Jiraiya). Oro and Tsunade is debatable, imo.)**
> 
> ...



People don't look at their hype right though. That's the main problem. It's seems as if people don't know that the Sannin weren't at their prime when they received their title and got much more powerful throughout time; Byakago, SS, Edo, Sage Mode, Yamata, etc. 

Shikaku's statement doesn't even hold much water anyway as the legends from konoha were strong af and he already held the Sannin in high regard. Nobody was over hyping Hashirama and Tobirama's hype, they just were _that_ strong and the same holds true for the Sannin _even before_ they received more Kage Level techinques. 

In regards to Kisame, I personally don't underate him at all and it actually does get annoying when people say that Jirayia can beat him low-difficulty. I mean Jirayia clearly wins, but it's going to take a lot from the man. But, that doesn't mean you can ignore what characters say on panel with the logic that " they lack enough information or they were cocky. " That's faulty logic because what the character says is what Kishi is trying to convey throughout the manga and unless statements/feats negate that statement it should be taken at face value. Itachi, who grew up in Konoha, also never disagreed with what Kisame was saying. Kishi really just wanted the reader to know that Jirayia was superior to Kisame. Whether or not you think feats disagree is debatebale but portrayal says Jirayia> Kisame. Definitely atleast in Part 1.


----------



## Troyse22 (Apr 30, 2017)

Veracity said:


> People don't look at their hype right though. That's the main problem. It's seems as if people don't know that the Sannin weren't at their prime when they received their title and got much more powerful throughout time; Byakago, SS, Edo, Sage Mode, Yamata, etc.
> 
> Shikaku's statement doesn't even hold much water anyway as the legends from konoha were strong af and he already held the Sannin in high regard. Nobody was over hyping Hashirama and Tobirama's hype, they just were _that_ strong and the same holds true for the Sannin _even before_ they received more Kage Level techinques.
> 
> In regards to Kisame, I personally don't underate him at all and it actually does get annoying when people say that Jirayia can beat him low-difficulty. I mean Jirayia clearly wins, but it's going to take a lot from the man. But, that doesn't mean you can ignore what characters say on panel with the logic that " they lack enough information or they were cocky. " That's faulty logic because what the character says is what Kishi is trying to convey throughout the manga and unless statements/feats negate that statement it should be taken at face value. Itachi, who grew up in Konoha, also never disagreed with what Kisame was saying. Kishi really just wanted the reader to know that Jirayia was superior to Kisame. Whether or not you think feats disagree is debatebale but portrayal says Jirayia> Kisame. Definitely atleast in Part 1.




Jiraiya doesn't win, not against post P1 Kisame.

Jiraiya beats P1 Kisame, I doubt Kishi was thinking of shit like Daikodan, Samehada merge, 1000 feeding sharks etc.

P2 Kisame>>>>>>>>>>>>The Sannin>>>P1 Kisame based on feats.


----------



## LostSelf (Apr 30, 2017)

Veracity said:


> People don't look at their hype right though. That's the main problem. It's seems as if people don't know that the Sannin weren't at their prime when they received their title and got much more powerful throughout time; Byakago, SS, Edo, Sage Mode, Yamata, etc.
> 
> Shikaku's statement doesn't even hold much water anyway as the legends from konoha were strong af and he already held the Sannin in high regard. Nobody was over hyping Hashirama and Tobirama's hype, they just were _that_ strong and the same holds true for the Sannin _even before_ they received more Kage Level techinques.
> 
> In regards to Kisame, I personally don't underate him at all and it actually does get annoying when people say that Jirayia can beat him low-difficulty. I mean Jirayia clearly wins, but it's going to take a lot from the man. But, that doesn't mean you can ignore what characters say on panel with the logic that " they lack enough information or they were cocky. " That's faulty logic because what the character says is what Kishi is trying to convey throughout the manga and unless statements/feats negate that statement it should be taken at face value. Itachi, who grew up in Konoha, also never disagreed with what Kisame was saying. Kishi really just wanted the reader to know that Jirayia was superior to Kisame. Whether or not you think feats disagree is debatebale but portrayal says Jirayia> Kisame. Definitely atleast in Part 1.



Not all the legends, though. He said often. That comment also can apply to even jutsus or weapons. Like Totsuka. I'm not sure if Itachi saw Jiraiya fight. I am not sure how much time Jiraiya spent in Konoha in times of war. I guess all Itachi heard of him were comments, news, hype.

The statement can lead to things like that. But in cases like Hashirama, i bet the legend fell short before him. The man was more awesome than the legend describes him.

About Kisame. It is ok if in part 1 Kishimoto considered him below the Sannin. I just say Kisame might've been diminishing himself a bit more due to the hype. Itachi not disagreeing with him might be due to him not wanting to fight as he expressed.Wich can possibly mean
Itachi was solely talking about Jiraiya. It's very likely he was doing so or at least he was lying when he said that if we consider how he treated Orochimaru: "You will always fall short before the Sharingan". He showed two very different behavior and Itachi was younger and less experienced as he is now. The title looked like wasn't the reason Itachi hyped Jiraiya, it was Jiraiya himself (Though i go with the lying idea because it's weird, considering part two, seeing Jman taking both and backup at the same time).

The reason why i think Kisame was diminishing himself for Jiraiya is also because like you (and i) said, when they got their titles, Jiraiya was possibly weaker than Kisame, so Kisame refering himself as "The Sannin" could very well mean himself basing it on legend and tales around him or simply calling Jiraiya by his title like it's often,was directly speaking for Jiraiya and not for his peers. Refering to Jiraiya as the Sannin doesn't always have to mean talking about the entire group. He didn't look very impressed with Orochimaru, for example. As he was very cocky against Sasuke even knowing he killed Oro. (Someone tell me if that part was filler, can't remember).

But i'd be also speculating and the point still would stand: Kishimoto said Kisame was below Jiraiya, so he is. Even though i'm not sure how he saw Kisame in part 2. 

But it wouldn't be the first time Kishi says something that changes everything. I think Shikaku's comment is something we basically knew (Hyperboles, etc) but that always applied to jutsus and not fame of shinobis regarding portrayal.


----------



## Yoko (Apr 30, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> As he was very cocky against Sasuke even knowing he killed Oro. (Someone tell me if that part was filler, can't remember).



Not filler at all - you are remembering correctly. 

*Kisame confidently said he'd take on all four of them* if they tried to pass him together (rather than just Sasuke passing).  Whether or not he'd have succeeded against them all is another matter / debate entirely, but as far as confidence in his abilities go - his strength either increased since Part 1 or he was retconned to better fit his role in the narrative.  

Either way, a guy that confidently faces off with a guy who defeated a Sannin plus has three other people as back-up and the guy who confidently faces and defeats Jinchuuriki (Roshi, gimped Killer Bee) isn't someone who'd talk himself down from fighting a single Sannin.  Yet somehow, an outdated Part 1 statement takes precedence because it is convenient? What?

Again, whether or not he'd lose against Jiraiya or Orochimaru is another matter entirely and not the point of this discussion.  But to consistently use a statement from chapter 144 to downplay Kisame and present it as proof that Kisame is irrefutably much weaker than the Sannin while simultaneously ignoring everything else that follows is being intentionally narrow-minded.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Idiopodivny (Apr 30, 2017)

`Lazlo said:


> Lol? Why do you open threads just to bitch and not contribute anything useful in them?



It's called asking a question. I'm not one of those Naruto super fans who know everything, sorry.

And if you're going to use "bitch" use it correctly. You make no sense

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 2


----------



## Troyse22 (Apr 30, 2017)

Yoko said:


> Not filler at all - you are remembering correctly.
> 
> *Kisame confidently said he'd take on all four of them* if they tried to pass him together (rather than just Sasuke passing).  Whether or not he'd have succeeded against them all is another matter / debate entirely, but as far as confidence in his abilities go - his strength either increased since Part 1 or he was retconned to better fit his role in the narrative.
> 
> ...



And suddenly silence fell upon the Sannin wankers.

Well said Yoko.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Apr 30, 2017)

Kakuzu is the strongest she can beat more times than not. CES hard counters Domu, without a structured body to return to (CES obliterates) the hearts reviving him isn't even an option, and Katsuya provides excellent defense against elemental attacks. 

Above him is Deidara, Kisame, Itachi, Pain, MS Obito and Nagato.

She cannot beat any of them more times than not.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 30, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Not all the legends, though. He said often. That comment also can apply to even jutsus or weapons. Like Totsuka. I'm not sure if Itachi saw Jiraiya fight. I am not sure how much time Jiraiya spent in Konoha in times of war. I guess all Itachi heard of him were comments, news, hype.
> 
> The statement can lead to things like that. But in cases like Hashirama, i bet the legend fell short before him. The man was more awesome than the legend describes him.
> 
> ...



Itachi doesn't need to have seen Jirayia fight to know his power in comparison to his own. I mean if that's the case then a lot of character statements are absolutely uselsss which we know is untrue. Kishi puts those statements in for a reason.

No cause Kisame also gassed up Jirayia even after they fled the scene and Itachi still did not disagree. Itachi was also later retconned. He is superior to the Sannin but Kisame is not. It's Kisame< Sannin< Itachi in my honest opinion. Kisame isn't getting stomped by any means but he isn't own the their level. Same way Jirayia isn't getting stomped by Itachi but he isn't on his level either. 

Again, this is a case of people not understanding the title of the Sannin. They didn't get their title from hanzo and then continue to be gassed up for no reason. They received the title as Sannin and then proceeded to make that title into a legendary status. Hanzo gave them that title because of what they would become not because of their battle power at them time. So when Kisame feared Jirayia it was because of his current power that was accumulated through years, not of his power level against Hanzo. 

Kisame gassed up Oro when he found out Sasuke beat him and by the time Sasuke and Co met up with Kisame he very well could have been informed of Oro's status of death from Obito. And even then, Kisame never said he could beat anyone on Taka. He just claimed he would not to easy on them. Which I should probabaly review the viz translation.

I personally think Kisame was retconned a bit. He was at Part 1 Kakashis Level in PTS which seems kinda crazy in my opinion. He's stronger then that but he still isn't Sannin level.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 30, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Jiraiya doesn't win, not against post P1 Kisame.
> 
> Jiraiya beats P1 Kisame, I doubt Kishi was thinking of shit like Daikodan, Samehada merge, 1000 feeding sharks etc.
> 
> P2 Kisame>>>>>>>>>>>>The Sannin>>>P1 Kisame based on feats.



Not based on feats at all. But I'm not going to get into am extended conversation about Kisame vs Sannin unless you want to make it solely based on Tsunade. I'll argue that.


----------



## nmwn93 (May 1, 2017)

She can beat all except

OBITO . NAGATO. and itachi.

people still troll tsunade crazy on this thing.

i would be remiss to see her Vs deidara. Also knowledge plays a big role here. tsunade is in fact a genius and she is also very smart. i'd go far enough as to call her a tactician as shown with madara she *much like her uncle* has no problem feinting death or disability to make her opponent drop their guard and attacking in those moments.. it's safe to say that she stands a MUCH BETTER CHANCE if she is at full knowledge and her opponets have no knowledge except general hype and portrait.

Tsunade was portrayed very nicely and didn't seem to fear much. the editors during the pain arc hurt her chracter as they had to find a way to write her out of the battle portion of the arc. kishi did an interview where he said he wanted it to be tsunade to land the first punch on Yahiko pain. but his EDITORS made him change that citing that tsunades punches were too strong and that would ruin what ended up being a fight with naruto and deva path.

Tsunade is a character in this series much like wolverine was to the 90s xmen cartoon. they never really faced off against living breathing flesh and blood opponents. they always land their usually killing blows on Immortals or lifeless things like robots or in this case edo tensis. like madara. orochimaru.

i think Tsunade
-STOMPS HIDAN *yes stomps.*
-Beats the shit out of kakuzu
-beats the sheets off of Konan
-Rips Sasori a fucking sunder. grabs him by his chakra threads and pummels him to oblivion. the reason sakura couldn't beat sasori ALONE was because as chyio said in order to dodge him you need to be able to dodge him perfectly which requires battle experience that sakura did not have... however tsumade has much more battle exp than sakura and hell i venture to say a lot more than sasori too. and she posses her strength and she is proven to be quicker than her then student 
- deidara this would be a doozy but i see tsunade being able to win more often than not. if she has knowledge then she can especially take this one  more so when her slug is allowed into the picture.
-Kisame i'm sorry i really no matter how many times people here say it would be a close fight... i just dint see it.  kisame portrayed himself below the level of the sannin. tsunade in a hit would obliterate him. i think she can disarm him of his sword. he cant hold her in a water prison. he needs to get close to execute the kill which would be his demise. and samehada absorbs chakra  but the 5ths punches non enhanced are serious business   and she has the taijutsu skills to be able to knock ol sharkskin away and trhen once the clug is allowed i dont see why absorbing the sword then poofing away would be out of the question.
-Orochimaru (if he counts) got One shotted. GET OVER IT> SHE BEAT HIM IN SINGLE BLOW
-zetsu Miss me with that bullshit lol
-Nagato i dont think she can beat nagato but i think she can beat a lot of the paths esp with full knowledge and all of her chakra. i think she would put up a better fight than Jman did if she has full knowledge
-obito she puts up a uch better fight than most if she could come up with a way to hit him which would be hard but i'd like to see that battle honestely.
itachi she cant win. not because of his eye power *Madara was using his Ms and only Ay's dumb ass was caught in genjutsu lol. but that damn yata mirror shit would keep her from executing anything that could give her an advantage



Miss me with any snide replies if you disagree then please just post your thought but do not be rude. nice post btw.

be well.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## DaVizWiz (May 1, 2017)

@Neko White


> she would put up a better fight than Jman did if she has full knowledge


Your opinion went from acceptable to extraordinarily doubtful in this statement.



> Orochimaru (if he counts) got One shotted. GET OVER IT> SHE BEAT HIM IN SINGLE BLOW


Your opinion now has become complete trash as a result of this subsequent statement.

She not only struck him numerous times in that battle, which proves your second sentence wrong, but he had no arms to produce any seal based Ninjutsu in that battle, in fact the body he was currently occupying, as a result of Hiruzen's technique, had dead flesh lower arms that were completely paralyzed.

So not only could he not produce Ninjutsu, he was, in effect, an armless man in that battle, you'd mine as well cut both arms off and throw him into battle, he could not even use them to defend himself, hence him attacking Jiraiya with his face and legs, and attacking Tsunade with his tongue and Kusanagi out of his mouth only, significantly reducting the blade's cutting power. 

That version of Orochimaru barely makes mid kage level, you could argue he would be the strongest low kage at best - because every mid kage level would stomp him in that condition. He couldn't even use shadow snake hands which require no seals - because the fucking hands were dead. He couldn't summon, he didn't have hydra yet, he couldn't use Edo Tensei, he didn't have oral rebirth yet or he could not use it in that condition, he had no seal based ninjutsu, he could not wield Kusanagi with his arms, he could not use his arms to defend himself in taijutsu or strike an opponent - all things considered this version of Orochimari is a very weak mid kage level at best.

She cannot beat a full powered Orochimaru, pre-Hiruzen or War-arc - at all, like, not even 1 out of 10 times.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (May 1, 2017)

Yoko said:


> No.  What is subjective is you saying "no hype nor feats that Kisame has received in Part 2 has changed that."


 Please tell me what portrayal Kisame has that is greater than performing the best alongside Onoki against Madara Uchiha and receiving praise directly from him? Or protecting Konohagakure from Pain's second strongest technique? Or besting Orochimaru in combat and being heavily implied to be capable of killing him? Or being the reason why Konoha won the Second Shinobi World War? 



> Again, subjective.  And saving Konoha is a noncombat feat, I'm not sure how it is relevant.


 It's not subjective that Tsunade and Onoki had the best performances. They were clearly portrayed as the main stars of that fight and stronger than the rest of the Kage there. Her saving Konoha from Pain's CST is certainly a relevant feat and is something that can be used in combat, how the hell is that not relevant? Because it's defensive, and not offensive?



> Kisame could spit out an ocean, have sharks eat up the toad stomach - a plethora of possibilities from his known moveset.  Only issue being he either didn't have them in Part 1 or that they were not team friendly moves and would hurt / compromise / drown Itachi in the process.


 I didn't say Kisame couldn't counter it, I said that scene was done to illustrate Jiraiya's superiority.



> Kazekage Gaara has a lower stat total than Shizune.  It is not supplementary evidence in the slightest, especially when some stats matter more than others.


 Shizune has a .5 higher stat total, and they're one's base stats. They're not taking into account Gaara being in a desert whatsoever either. As long as the stats fall in line with how characters are portrayed, they can be used as additional evidence. 



> No he didn't - *Raikage's hair very clearly spiked up between panels.*


 No, A went V2 here, which was after their Lariat exchange. A's hair spikes are inconsistent, so you cannot use that as evidence as seen here in which he would obviously use V2 against Gyuki, yet his hair is down.



> And regeneration takes its toll.  Having more chakra is great, but regeneration eats up those reserves at a faster rate than a casual elemental blast does for Kisame or Kakuzu.


 Based on what? Her regeneration lasted for hours against Madara's Susanoo, the battle would be over before that much time passed regardless of who wins. 



> Hidan lunges at Kakashi - Kakashi backs up and parries, Kakuzu launches a surprise Futon, and Kakashi dodges the brunt of it.  Hidan never hit Kakashi.


 I didn't say he did, but Hidan was close to Kakashi when he was assaulting him. If Kakashi's speed was so much greater he should've been capable of completely avoiding Hidan easily.



> It is still well beyond Tsunade and any CQC fighter's range (bar Guy, who has missile attacks).  Hebi Sasuke, who has wings / one wing and also has a long range move in Chidori Eiso, would not have had to come up with such a troublesome strategy to hit Deidara if the solution was "just jump high."


 Tsunade has been shown jumping higher than a lot of characters, whether it be a combination of her strength or something else. She has been shown leaping much higher than Hebi Sasuke can. Hebi Sasuke being unable to hit Deidara without difficult methods =/= Tsunade being unable to hit Deidara.



> He had to kick off his sword, jump high, use whatever aerial boost his wing gave him _and_ shoot out a CS2 enhanced Chidori Eiso to hit Deidara, and it only worked because Deidara was taken off guard that he avoided his land mines.


 The speed she can move at when she leaps that high would still pressure Deidara, considering Onoki and Deidara's flight speed is equal and she can keep up with Onoki's. Deidara would probably dodge though, as she'd fall back down to the ground after she misses while Deidara could stay aloft. She'd definitely have to summon Katsuyu to hit Deidara.



> Deidara was dodging Gaara's sand assaults (which he can fully control and change direction of in midair) in a desert, which trumps an fan fiction combo moves she has with Katsuyu.


 The sheer scale that Onoki's Dust Release was on was enormous, it was definitely comparable in size to what Gaara did against Deidara. That was done when Tsunade herself was starting to run out of chakra, if she was at full strength it'd be even larger than that.



> I did, and they all casually dodged her assault, which is exactly what will happen if she tries to hit anyone in the "Kage" tier.  None were knocked off balance or hindered in any way.


 Them being forced to run away is hindering their assault, and Tsunade was weaker back then. The scale her punches and kicks would be on would be akin to what Sakura did, and that would certainly pose a problem.



> So what are you basing Tsunade's alleged evasiveness on, beyond a statement she made about herself?


 What Sakura did against Sasori, which although Sasori was holding back and not using his fastest technique, was still impressive: and she's slower than Tsunade.



> Thank you for citing every single reason why I believe Tsunade will struggle with long range fighters.  She can't get close to them without sustaining serious damage whereas they can sit back and launch ranged missiles without getting hurt.


 The damage she would sustain wouldn't be serious enough to impede her in a significant way most of the time though.



> Again, purely subjective.


 Yeah, that part of my statement was. But do you see base Naruto or Hidan replicating what she did against Madara?



> Every single one of her assaults against Madara were a collaborative effort, so saying "she kept up with the Raikage which means she must be as fast as him" doesn't work.


 This doesn't change the fact that she needed the speed to be able to pull what she did off in the first place. Saying "it was a team effort" does not erase the validity of the feat.



> Madara, a Sage Mode user with Hashirama's regen (which was expressly stated to be similar to Byakugo) had to *reattach his arm when he lost it* - he didn't sprout out a new one.  Not sure why we should give Tsunade the benefit of the doubt.


 Because Tsunade said so, all that means is her regeneration is superior.



> Hyperbole.


 Obviously she's not actually immortal, but it was meant to signify how powerful the technique was.



> Because it was a team effort.


 I addressed this above.



> If Raikage hit Madara and sent him flying too fast before Tsunade could get to that spot, the combo attack would not have happened.


 You keep talking like that combo attack was planned from the start, and not merely improvised in the moment. Where was it stated or shown that they had all intended to execute that maneuver from the get-go?



> Tsunade is nowhere near the speed of the Raikage, let alone in Raiton armor forms, and even a further cry away from Onoki-lightened Raikage.


 That was not dependent on A's speed, that was dependent on Onoki's speed. I even said that in my post.



> I don't have an argument, I was never making one in regards to this - I am telling you to give me one.  Telling me Tsunade did a bunch of cool anti-Genjutsu stuff and dodged Susano'o off-panel is not an argument - it is conjecture that you're trying to translate into a feat. The burden of proof is on you to show me what you're saying is true.
> 
> It's like arbitrarily giving Kakashi random elemental jutsu because he is known to have over 1000, or giving Hiruzen every jutsu in Konoha because he was rumored to have it, only in your example, it is worse because it wasn't implied Tsunade did anything except get stabbed repeatedly off-panel whereas nobody else did.


 Never said she had "cool" anti-Genjutsu stuff at all (although I believe she certainly does). So I'm not sure why you brought that up to begin with. As for not getting cut in half, we see that they have stabbed her repeatedly, so they were trying to kill her and had failed to do so while using whatever amount of their strength they were using. So that means she was fast enough to not get bisected or decapitated.



> Based on what? Tsunade forms a hand seal and you assume it must have been Katsuyu?


 What else does Tsunade perform hand seals for but summoning Katsuyu?



> You're using Hidan sharing her speed bracket to imply she can hit people like Kakashi (who is significantly faster than her and has Sharingan precog).


 I disagree, I don't believe the speed disparity between Tsunade and Kakashi is large enough for it to matter that much in a fight between them. You're going to need to provide proof that he is significantly faster than her.



> Off-panel interceptions (Suigetsu and Jugo blocking Darui and Raikage) are consistently done for dramatic purposes.  That speed is never again replicated in battles.  See Kakashi's dramatic entrances against Deva Realm, Itachi / Kisame, Haku intercepting Kakashi's Raikiri charge from five feet away despite being on the other side of the bridge, etc.


 Jugo blocking A wasn't off-panel, as shown in the scan I provided. C praised Suigetsu for his interception though, so it was relevant. I believe To no Sho praised Guy for intercepting Kisame against Kakashi as well. I do agree with you a little there though, unless it was clearly highlighted, intercepting an attack from being off-panel doesn't count as much as reacting to it directly.



> Sasuke is an established speedster and has Sharingan precognition, which was what allowed him to dodge that attack.  Tsunade does not have his speed nor his eye.


 I knew you would bring this up, and my response to this is is the fact that Sasuke, Jugo, and Suigetsu could keep up with a guy much faster and more reflexive than all of them despite the gap in speed. So that tells me that unless Tsunade is facing off against some top-tier speedster (Minato, Tobirama, V2 A, NTCM Naruto, Sixth/Seventh Gate Guy, ect) she will have no problem keeping up with them and potentially tagging them too.



> No - Raikage is wearing Onoki as a backpack.  It is Raikage's speed, which Onoki is making even faster by making the Raikage lighter and more gravity defying.  It is not Onoki's speed.  It is Raikage's speed plus Onoki's boost, which was why Raikage was moving even faster than he was before.


 On the ground? Yes. In the air? No. That doesn't even make sense, A is not even moving his legs, how is he the main source of speed?



> Orochimaru and Kabuto casually dodged her and were no way impeded by it, which is my point - it isn't effective against competent fighters.  Kakashi was sparring with Sakura & Naruto to gauge their improvement - he sat underground and waited for them to figure out where he was.
> 
> And people marveling at her strength has absolutely nothing to do with them being unable to dodge it.  Yes, she is strong and yes you cannot afford to get hit by her.  That was never the point - the point was that punching the ground isn't going to knock people off balance like it did against Part 1 Naruto.


 Forcing your opponent to leap away from you or causing the landscape to explode is indeed impeding your opponent from attacking you. I don't see how you can read those scans, and come to the conclusion that any competent fighter will be un-phased by the ground beneath them literally exploding and either forcing or sending them flying.


----------



## DaVizWiz (May 1, 2017)

> Please tell me what portrayal Kisame has that is greater than performing the best alongside Onoki against Madara Uchiha and receiving praise directly from him?


I'm not one to single out full posts, but Tsunade had a worse performance than all of the Gokage in that fight.

In fact, she was the first one to run out of stamina and be killed (if not for Dan's absurd asspull entry). She was the only one to be mortally wounded several times in that battle, in fact 5 times (Madara's Surprise Susano Sword, Clone Susano Swords (2), Madara's Susano Sword (saved from Dan), Magatama to the chest, Split in Half by PS)  - 4 more than any of the Gokage and the only one to be seriously/mortally wounded at all by Madara prior to Perfect Susano manifestation (4 times).

The only stand out feature she had in that battle was powering Jinton Cube, which would not have happened if not for a zombie in spirit form randomly arriving to the battlefield at the exact moment Tsunade fainted from fatigue falling into a Susano blade, and of course restoring her chakra (to full byakugo levels) prior to leaving the plane, allowing her to power said Jinton Cube and later support the entire alliance army with creation rebirth through her summon.

Because of her undiciplined (Punching fireballs? What the fuck Lol? 2 Seconds before she fainted) and sloppy combat performance, which Ei pointed out directly, she was the first to be defeated by Madara fainting in mid combat and falling to her absolute death.

Admittedly she was outmached, Madara and his susano clones were a bad matchup. That does not in anyway equate to her having a performance only short of Onoki's, it was not.


----------



## Veracity (May 1, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> I'm not one to single out full posts, but Tsunade had a worse performance than all of the Gokage in that fight.
> 
> In fact, she was the first one to run out of stamina and be killed (if not for Dan's absurd asspull entry). She was the only one to be mortally wounded several times in that battle, in fact 5 times (Madara's Surprise Susano Sword, Clone Susano Swords (2), Madara's Susano Sword (saved from Dan), Magatama to the chest, Split in Half by PS)  - 4 more than any of the Gokage and the only one to be seriously/mortally wounded at all by Madara prior to Perfect Susano manifestation (4 times).
> 
> ...



Can you refute my old posts about Tsuande clearly doing better than Mei? Cause you haven't and you keep saying she did worse when that's false. If not I can just refute this one


----------



## DaVizWiz (May 1, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Can you refute my old posts about Tsuande clearly doing better than Mei? Cause you haven't and you keep saying she did worse when that's false. If not I can just refute this one


If memory serves correctly Mei was only seriously wounded when Madara erected Perfect Susano, as was Tsunade.

Tsunade was mortally wounded 4 times and fainted to her death prior to Mei receiving even a moderate injury.

Hard to see where you won in that debate, from what I recall from this morning I'm still trying to wipe you off of my boots several weeks later.


----------



## Veracity (May 1, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> If memory serves correctly Mei was only seriously wounded when Madara erected Perfect Susano, as was Tsunade.
> 
> Tsunade was mortally wounded 4 times and fainted to her death prior to Mei receiving even a moderate injury.
> 
> Hard to see where you won in that debate, from what I recall from this morning I'm still trying to wipe you off of my boots several weeks later.



I guess memory does not serve you correct because Mei was going to die and needed to be saved. That was before the Gokage combination  so basically Mei died far before Tsuande ran out of chakra; and she's the women who was contstantly healing the Gokage *and* fighting. And of course Tsuande was injured. She was fighting Madara _up close_ even before Madara used multi Mokuton Bunshin and after that she was using Byakago so she could go blow to blow. Mei, on the other hand, was fighting  at a distance and still was inches away from getting bitch slapped into her coffin if not for Gaara.

You sure seem awfully confident for an argument you clearly did not win. I also never stated I won anything, just that I was waiting for a response.


----------



## Troyse22 (May 1, 2017)

Neko White said:


> She can beat all except
> 
> OBITO . NAGATO. and itachi.
> 
> ...




Dumb.

She's never been hyped as a genius outside of medical jutsu. You're thinking of Orochimaru, who, ironically is horribly arrogant and doesn't live up to his hype as a genius.

She wouldn't have a chance in hell vs Pein.

An outdated statement by Kisame from P1 shouldn't be used to just downplay his power.

Come P2 he confidently faced off vs Hebi Sasuke and team, and Kisame knew Sasuke beat Orochimaru. It's clear come P2 that Kisame got a lot stronger and saw himself as much more powerful than his P1 self


----------



## nmwn93 (May 1, 2017)

your grand ma is dumb. 

i'm talking about her data book stat of intelligence being a 5. ignoramus. 
like i said i think she would do a lot better than a lot of people against pain esp at full power. i think it's slept on just how much chakra tsunade really possesses. kishi admitted that his editors made him  stray from a deva path v. tsunade confrontation   because simply she hits too hard. not that she couldn't land a blow on him that hshe hits too hard its a OLD interview that kishi did  years ago about the subject 

lastly i didn't say she would fodderize shark boy. not at all i do think she beats him. its going to be medium high to difficulty absolutely. you seem to disagree and that too is fine


----------



## LostSelf (May 1, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Itachi doesn't need to have seen Jirayia fight to know his power in comparison to his own. I mean if that's the case then a lot of character statements are absolutely uselsss which we know is untrue. Kishi puts those statements in for a reason.



Like what statements would be useless? I've got some statements made without knowledge and based it on general hype that ended up being wrong.

Ei saying he was the fastest man alive when one on the other side of the world could've amped his speed to god level is one. Orochimaru's general knowledge backfired twice on him. One against Hiruzen and one against Itachi. General hype on Deidara can lead to one being killed by C4. General knowledge helps to make an idea on how powerful a character can be. But not as exactly as seeing that person fight.

Jiraiya certainly had no idea how powerful Itachi really was, neither had Orochimaru, and both were cocky as hell. The former had luck Itachi was not on the mood of going on a killing spree. Otherwise, after getting out of the building, together they would've stomped Jiraiya.

Until, our mighty Gaikage arrived, of course .



Veracity said:


> No cause Kisame also gassed up Jirayia even after they fled the scene and Itachi still did not disagree. Itachi was also later retconned. He is superior to the Sannin but Kisame is not. It's Kisame< Sannin< Itachi in my honest opinion. Kisame isn't getting stomped by any means but he isn't own the their level. Same way Jirayia isn't getting stomped by Itachi but he isn't on his level either.



I know, i said it's fine if Jiraiya is above Kisame. Just saying his legend only was what Kisame was using amd diminishing himself. But like you said, i also say Kisame was retconned after part 1.



Veracity said:


> Again, this is a case of people not understanding the title of the Sannin. They didn't get their title from hanzo and then continue to be gassed up for no reason. They received the title as Sannin and then proceeded to make that title into a legendary status. Hanzo gave them that title because of what they would become not because of their battle power at them time. So when Kisame feared Jirayia it was because of his current power that was accumulated through years, not of his power level against Hanzo.



Wich would mean their achievements, not the title literally. Like i said, the three are different and Kisame can feel himself diminished by Jiraiya's achievements, but can not care much for the others, at least, not to the point of humbling himself. Just because the three are Sannin doesn't mean they were going to be equal.



Veracity said:


> Kisame gassed up Oro when he found out Sasuke beat him and by the time Sasuke and Co met up with Kisame he very well could have been informed of Oro's status of death from Obito. And even then, Kisame never said he could beat anyone on Taka. He just claimed he would not to easy on them. Which I should probabaly review the viz translation.



Did Akatsuki know of Orochimaru's status? He went hiding and hardly was found, as much as i remember. Otherwise, Kisame wouldn't have been "Oh, who took down someone so powerful". And even then, his position against Sasuke and backup still says he didn't care nor was remotely as threatened with Sasuke as he was against Jiraiya. Either retconned to the point of having enough power to stand up to one, or just, like Itachi, seeing Jiraiya with higher respect. But fear is something he didn't show against Oro's murderer.

In fact, himn saying he won't go easy on them represents a superiority status. Kisame still viewed them as not much of a threat. You don't say that to someone you hold so high and so much more powerful than you.



Veracity said:


> I personally think Kisame was retconned a bit. He was at Part 1 Kakashis Level in PTS which seems kinda crazy in my opinion. He's stronger then that but he still isn't Sannin level.



I think this depends on matchup. But there i'd be going further away from the thread. Like @Yoko said, saying Kisame loses to Tsunade because of a part 1 statement on Jiraiya and ignoring his feats and matchup is another and very, very common thing in the Battledome. Jiraiya is Jiraiya, Tsunade is Tsunade.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (May 1, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> I'm not one to single out full posts, but Tsunade had a worse performance than all of the Gokage in that fight.


 Did we even read the same fight?



> In fact, she was the first one to run out of stamina and be killed (if not for Dan's absurd asspull entry). She was the only one to be mortally wounded several times in that battle, in fact 5 times (Madara's Surprise Susano Sword, Clone Susano Swords (2), Madara's Susano Sword (saved from Dan), Magatama to the chest, Split in Half by PS)  - 4 more than any of the Gokage and the only one to be seriously/mortally wounded at all by Madara prior to Perfect Susano manifestation (4 times).


 You're looking at all of her feats from the completely wrong perspective. The reason she ran out of stamina first is because she had to use up some of her chakra to survive Mabui's Heavenly Transfer Technique to even get to the battlefield in the first place. Next, she had to heal a severely exhausted Gaara and Onoki simultaneously so that the two of them could even participate in the battle to begin with (as well as the fact that she did most of the work in that fight alongside Onoki). Unless of course, you're inferring that her reserves (even with the SoHT) are inferior to that of Mei and Onoki's? Her getting stabbed doesn't lessen her performance whatsoever, using her regeneration to her advantage to allow herself to get hit so she can reach her opponent is smart and is apart of her fighting style. I have no idea why you and some other posters keep acting like that is a bad thing. Tsunade is the main one who busted open Madara's ribcage Susanoo and was praised directly by him herself, which prompted Madara to decide to use a Wood Clone to avoid getting sealed by Gaara shortly afterwards. Tsunade is the only other member of the Five Kage (bar Onoki) who was shown overwhelming a Susanoo Wood Clone (despite them being the worst match-up possible for her), whilst A was holding one off with one arm, Gaara was getting ragdolled, and Mei was about to die. Tsunade is also the reason why Onoki was able to make his Dust Release so large to vaporize twenty-five Susanoo Wood Clones and push back Madara Uchiha. She also saved the lives of the other Kage when Madara fired his Fire Release tech at them and she deflected them. She was also depicted as the last member of the Five Kage standing (yes it was due to Dan, but she'd have had more chakra if she didn't have to use it up before she even started participating in the battle) and ultimately preserved the lives of herself and the other Kage until help arrived. She most certainly did have a better performance than A, Gaara, or Mei did in that whole fight if you look at it correctly.



> The only stand out feature she had in that battle was powering Jinton Cube, which would not have happened if not for a zombie in spirit form randomly arriving to the battlefield at the exact moment Tsunade fainted from fatigue falling into a Susano blade, and of course restoring her chakra (to full byakugo levels) prior to leaving the plane, allowing her to power said Jinton Cube and later support the entire alliance army with creation rebirth through her summon.


 Err, Dan saved her after she had already done that. Also, Tsunade is capable of restoring her SoHS pretty quickly even when she runs out. As seen in which she restored it after Karin healed her, and had enough left to use the SoHT alongside Sakura to summon 1/10th of Katsuyu and treat the tens of thousands (if not more) of alliance members.



> Because of her undiciplined (Punching fireballs? What the fuck Lol? 2 Seconds before she fainted) and sloppy combat performance, which Ei pointed out directly, she was the first to be defeated by Madara fainting in mid combat and falling to her absolute death.


 Look above.



> Admittedly she was outmached, Madara and his susano clones were a bad matchup. That does not in anyway equate to her having a performance only short of Onoki's, it was not.


 Look above.


----------



## hbcaptain (May 1, 2017)

She beats everyone bar Dojutsu trio. Even Konan thanks to Katsuyu's acid.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## DaVizWiz (May 1, 2017)

Veracity said:


> I guess memory does not serve you correct because Mei was going to die and needed to be saved. That was before the Gokage combination  so basically Mei died far before Tsuande ran out of chakra; and she's the women who was contstantly healing the Gokage *and* fighting. And of course Tsuande was injured. She was fighting Madara _up close_ even before Madara used multi Mokuton Bunshin and after that she was using Byakago so she could go blow to blow. Mei, on the other hand, was fighting  at a distance and still was inches away from getting bitch slapped into her coffin if not for Gaara.
> 
> You sure seem awfully confident for an argument you clearly did not win. I also never stated I won anything, just that I was waiting for a response.


Tsunade was saved by Mei prior to her being in any serious danger to begin with. Do you not recall the massive firewave storming toward Tsunade after she hit Madara's Susano?

If we're counting how many times people were saved in that battle Tsunade is at the top of that list.
1. Saved by Mei
2. Saved by Dan who is not even a living shinobi nor a Gokage member
3. Saved by Onoki
4. Saved by Orochimaru

Tsunade was not once shown healing any of the Gokage during the battle, nor was it ever implied by any of them. They were all separated in battle by the clones and healing any of them would have been impossible with 10 clones on two immobile members anyway. She healed Gaara and Onoki before the battle began, had they not had to fight and defeat 3 edo kage that would not have been necessary.

If any of the Kage were seriously wounded it would have been shown by the author, just as it was shown for Tsunade 5 separate times in the battle.

Answer these questions:
1. Who was mortally wounded the most in the battle? (*Tsunade 5* times)
2. Who required saving the most in the battle? (*Tsunade*, 4 times)
3. Who was the only kage called out by a fellow kage for sloppy performance in combat? (*Tsunade* by Ei)
4. Who was the only one killed/defeated before Madara used Perfect Susano? (*Tsunade* - Dan prevented her absolute death from a charging Madara and restored her to prestine condition for continuous battle after she passed out and was completely incapable of combat any further).

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## DaVizWiz (May 1, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> You're looking at all of her feats from the completely wrong perspective. The reason she ran out of stamina first is because she had to use up some of her chakra to survive Mabui's Heavenly Transfer Technique to even get to the battlefield in the first place. Next, she had to heal a severely exhausted Gaara and Onoki simultaneously so that the two of them could even participate in the battle to begin with (as well as the fact that she did most of the work in that fight alongside Onoki). Unless of course, you're inferring that her reserves (even with the SoHT) are inferior to that of Mei and Onoki's? Her getting stabbed doesn't lessen her performance whatsoever, using her regeneration to her advantage to allow herself to get hit so she can reach her opponent is smart and is apart of her fighting style. I have no idea why you and some other posters keep acting like that is a bad thing. Tsunade is the main one who busted open Madara's ribcage Susanoo and was praised directly by him herself, which prompted Madara to decide to use a Wood Clone to avoid getting sealed by Gaara shortly afterwards. Tsunade is the only other member of the Five Kage (bar Onoki) who was shown overwhelming a Susanoo Wood Clone (despite them being the worst match-up possible for her), whilst A was holding one off with one arm, Gaara was getting ragdolled, and Mei was about to die. Tsunade is also the reason why Onoki was able to make his Dust Release so large to vaporize twenty-five Susanoo Wood Clones and push back Madara Uchiha. She also saved the lives of the other Kage when Madara fired his Fire Release tech at them and she deflected them. She was also depicted as the last member of the Five Kage standing (yes it was due to Dan, but she'd have had more chakra if she didn't have to use it up before she even started participating in the battle) and ultimately preserved the lives of herself and the other Kage until help arrived. She most certainly did have a better performance than A, Gaara, or Mei did in that whole fight if you look at it correctly.
> 
> Err, Dan saved her after she had already done that. Also, Tsunade is capable of restoring her SoHS pretty quickly even when she runs out. As seen in which she restored it after Karin healed her, and had enough left to use the SoHT alongside Sakura to summon 1/10th of Katsuyu and treat the tens of thousands (if not more) of alliance members.
> 
> ...


First of all, structure your posts correctly. No one wants to read through a paragraph looking for key points.

Second, using Creation Rebirth to heal minor wounds on her body isn't an excuse for being mortally wounded by Madara 4 times, the only one to be mortally wounded by Pre-PS Madara at all.

Third, healing Gaara & Onoki wouldn't have been necessary if they also didn't have to defeat 3 Edo Kage themselves and you cannot heal mental and physical strain of battling 3 Edo Kage it doesn't matter who the medic is.

Fourth, being stabbed through the body 3 times by large susano blades, hit at point blank with magatama and slashed in half by PS are all negative points when evaluating a shinobi's battle performance. Her sloppy performance, reflected in these 5 mortal wounds, is part of the reason why she was the first Gokage defeated by Madara and required Dan to restore her reserves.

You don't brush that to the side, they are all horrible features, even the first wounding by Madara which she implied was intentional to catch him off guard, which is utter bullshit when we consider the facial expression of Tsunade while being wounded, happened because she had no possible way to pressure Madara other than being mortally wounded first, and then counter attacking, which is more of a negative feature than a positive one. She essentially had to be killed by Madara first to even pressure him offensively, that is what that feature implied. It's horrible.

Fifth, Tsunade did nothing to any of the Susano Clones, her direct strikes couldn't even crack the temple of a V3 Susano Clone. Sure, she cracked part of a V2 Susano, but to absolutely no avail - and this is after Mei spit Madara into a striking position with her water dragon, prior to that Tsunade would have been slaughtered by the counter firewave he spit at her before Mei acted, so she was essentially defeated before even striking the susano a second time.

Sixth, Ei was holding off his 5 clones just fine until Tsunade showed she was slowing and fighting sloppy which distracted him into Genjutsu, Gaara was doing the same handling both his clones and supporting Mei subsequently, Mei was not close to dying, she blocked a Susano punch and it did absolutely no damage to her body as she was melting a V3 Susano with acid mist.

Tsunade was doing any better than any of the Gokage, none of them. She was doing significantly worse in actuality, hence her being ridiculously mortally wounded several times in combat by them, while none of them even receiving a single moderate wound from the Susano.

Seventh, the Super Dust Release can be attributed to Dan and Dan only, who saved Tsunade's life allowing her to be in that position alive, and restoring her yin seal to prestine condition prior to moving on, allowing her the chakra to then pump into Onoki's Cube.

Tsunade, alongside the Gokage for possible support, was defeated by Madara before he used PS. This is canon, she fainted in mid shunshin, her byakugo was turned off, and was falling into Madara's Susano Slash and none of the Gokage could do anything.

Eighth, Tsunade was killed by Madara's PS as well, not healing the Gokage wouldn't have helped her in anyway, Katsuyu isn't capable of reattaching a severed body alone, and Tsunade passed out moments after she summoned, she would have bled out and slowly died if Orochimaru did not arrive.

That is a relatively minor feature in all honestly, especially when you consider it was done post-battle when Madara had already defeated all of them. It is literally not even part of her features against Madara, the battle was already over, if it wasn't Madara would have come over and stomped her face into mush to ensure she was dead, there would be no healing of the Gokage whatsoever.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Yoko (May 1, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Please tell me what portrayal Kisame has that is greater than performing the best alongside Onoki against Madara Uchiha and receiving praise directly from him?



I don't think you understand what the term "subjective" means.

It is 100% fine if you think Tsunade performed amazingly in the War Arc.  You are entitled to that opinion and I am not going to try and disprove thay.  It is not indisputable, undeniable fact, because I don't agree and clearly several others share that opinion.  You are presenting your opinion as if it were infallible.  



> Or protecting Konohagakure from Pain's second strongest technique?



Major shifting of goal posts here.  Never once did I imply Kisame was a better healer / supplementary support fighter than Tsunade is.  Tsunade is the best support / healer in the manga - I never disputed that.  This has absolutely no relevance with her combat skill.  I trimmed the fat from your post because you continue to fixate on Tsunade being the star of the Madara battle as if it were fact.  It is not fact - it is your opinion, and I disagree with it.



> I didn't say Kisame couldn't counter it, I said that scene was done to illustrate Jiraiya's superiority.



How, exactly? If Kisame could counter it, how does that illustrate Jiraiya's superiority?

Kisame choosing to run from a situation that he either (A) could not counter without compromising his team mate and (B) may not have had a counter for back in Part 1 in no way implies Jiraiya is superior to Part 2 Kisame.  Again, whether or not Jiraiya can beat Part 2 Kisame is another topic but to imply that he is undeniably superior based on an outdated Part 1 scene is baseless.

Kisame confidently issued an open challenge to Hebi Sasuke (who he knows killed Orochimaru) as well as the rest of team Hebi. The guy openly fought Jinchuuriki and the Raikage's brother (and owner of the second strongest Bijuu).  It isn't the same iteration of the version afraid to fight the Sannin. Why not refer to this instance instead?



> Shizune has a .5 higher stat total, and they're one's base stats. They're not taking into account Gaara being in a desert whatsoever either. As long as the stats fall in line with how characters are portrayed, they can be used as additional evidence.



And what stats would get better if Gaara is in a desert? He has a 5 in Ninjutsu and a 5 in stamina, which are the only important things for his fighting style.  He is maxed out where he needs to be maxed out - his Genjutsu, Taijutsu, handseals and intelligence aren't going to magically go up just because he is in a desert.  Being in a desert will only bolster his already existing strengths.

Which brings me to my next point - stat totals also fail to take into account people who are beyond a single stats maximum threshold.  In Gaara's case, he has a 5 in Ninjutsu without a desert, but would still get a 5 even if he were in a desert simply because 5 is the highest stat.  Gaara in a desert is stronger than Gaara outside of a desert, but they'd still have the same stat total.

Likewise,  Itachi only gets a 5 in Genjutsu despite being the best user in the manga - his stat total is impacted by the same amount as Kurenai's, Orochimaru's and Hiruzen's even though he is clearly better than all of them at Genjutsu.  Likewise, Tsunade's total only gets a plus 5 boost for her strength - same as people like Guy and Kisame - even though she is far stronger than them physically.

Characters like Guy (and Lee, to a lesser extent) suffer from the same issue - they're maxed out in speed, strength, Taijutsu, but have lower scores in all the other stats, resulting in a lower total.  Guy has a lower stat total than Asuma but you won't see people debating who is portrayed as superior (unless you want to be the first).

Stat totals are meaningless because they tell you absolutely nothing other than how well rounded a character is.  Individual stats are comparable as long as you aren't sitting at roof tier.



> No, A went V2 here, which was after their Lariat exchange. A's hair spikes are inconsistent, so you cannot use that as evidence as seen here in which he would obviously use V2 against Gyuki, yet his hair is down.



Raikage's  (just like he did in yours) and two pages later he is on the ground after *Killer Bee smashed him*.  How is that powering up after the Lariat exchange? He powered up two pages before, charged at Killer Bee, and got put on the ground at the last page of the chapter.

The second power up you are listing is when he powered up against Naruto.  The first was against Killer Bee which was what I cited, and he got floored.



> Based on what? Her regeneration lasted for hours against Madara's Susanoo, the battle would be over before that much time passed regardless of who wins.



By the fourth stab wound on panel she was showing fatigue - we have no proof that she was getting stabbed for hours on end.



> I didn't say he did, but Hidan was close to Kakashi when he was assaulting him. If Kakashi's speed was so much greater he should've been capable of completely avoiding Hidan easily.



Not really sure where you are going with this - Kakashi choosing to block while walking backwards is not a detriment to his speed and does not speak to the speed disparity between him and Hidan.



> Tsunade has been shown jumping higher than a lot of characters, whether it be a combination of her strength or something else. She has been shown leaping much higher than Hebi Sasuke can. Hebi Sasuke being unable to hit Deidara without difficult methods =/= Tsunade being unable to hit Deidara.



Not really.  Her jumping off Katsuyu's head to reach Manda gave her higher starting elevation to kick off of so that wasn't purely her.  And nothing implies Madara's height was anywhere close to where Deidara could fly.

Even if you want to say that Tsunade can jump higher than Sasuke, she isn't jumping higher than CS2 Sasuke + wing boost + an additional 20 feet range that Chidori Eiso gave him.



> he sheer scale that Onoki's Dust Release was on was enormous, it was definitely comparable in size to what Gaara did against Deidara.



Again, even if you want to go there - Gaara can control his sand and change its trajectory midair.  Katsuyu's acid is literally just spit with a linear trajectory - it isn't hitting a flying Deidara when sand that could change direction in mid-air at Gaara's whim couldn't hit him.



> Them being forced to run away is hindering their assault, and Tsunade was weaker back then. The scale her punches and kicks would be on would be akin to what Sakura did, and that would certainly pose a problem.



No it wouldn't - they would dodge and jump out of the way accordingly, perhaps even capitalize on the debris she kicked up for a follow-up attack.



> What Sakura did against Sasori, which although Sasori was holding back and not using his fastest technique, was still impressive: and she's slower than Tsunade.



Sasori was holding back and Sakura had significant support in the form of Chiyo.



> The damage she would sustain wouldn't be serious enough to impede her in a significant way most of the time though.



When she pulled out two Susano'o blades from her gut (which were the third and fourth mortal injuries she incurred on panel), she was clearly slowing down to the point Raikage pointed it out.  Taking repeated Raiton Gians to her body / face will replicate that damage and leave her in a similar state.



> Yeah, that part of my statement was. But do you see base Naruto or Hidan replicating what she did against Madara?



Landing collaborative hits on Madara in a team combo with four other Kages? Sure.  I don't see them replicating what Tsunade did as far as taking the injuries she took and damaging Susano'o as they lack her regen and striking power, but that doesn't have anything to do with her speed which is what we were addressing.



> This doesn't change the fact that she needed the speed to be able to pull what she did off in the first place. Saying "it was a team effort" does not erase the validity of the feat.



Of course it does, because for all we know, it could mean they toned down their movements to make sure Tsunade can keep up.  It certainly makes more sense than Tsunade keeping up with a lightened V2 Raikage.



> Because Tsunade said so, all that means is her regeneration is superior.



Absolutely nothing indicates that Tsunade's regeneration is superior to Hashirama's (which is further amped by Sage Mode) to the extent she could pull off things that far above what he could.  Madara compared it to Tsunade's - to arbitrarily assume Tsunade's is significantly better has no basis, especially when none of her feats imply it.



> That was not dependent on A's speed, that was dependent on Onoki's speed. I even said that in my post.



This undercuts the whole purpose of wearing Onoki as a backpack - *it was literally meant to make Raikage faster*.  Saying "no it is Onoki's speed" is in direct conflict with the scan I listed above.



> Never said she had "cool" anti-Genjutsu stuff at all (although I believe she certainly does). So I'm not sure why you brought that up to begin with. As for not getting cut in half, we see that they have stabbed her repeatedly, so they were trying to kill her and had failed to do so while using whatever amount of their strength they were using. So that means she was fast enough to not get bisected or decapitated.



Or Madara was clearly bored and playing around with them and drew out the battle for as long as he could.  I mean, the *other Susano'o stood around watching as she pulled out two swords from her stomach and coughing up blood*.  You drawing the conclusion that she was actively avoiding them off panel is based on nothing.



> What else does Tsunade perform hand seals for but summoning Katsuyu?



A healing jutsu? An unknown elemental she may have had? Who knows? But stating it is undoubtedly Katsuyu she was summoning there is an assumption.



> I disagree, I don't believe the speed disparity between Tsunade and Kakashi is large enough for it to matter that much in a fight between them. You're going to need to provide proof that he is significantly faster than her.



Databook lists him an entire tier above her, and Sharingan's precog allows him to move at even faster speeds than he'd normally be able to without it (Raikiri / Chidori charges, accurate Shunshin usage, etc), which further stacks upon his already superior stat.  We have seen Kakashi chop off Zabuza's *sword wielding arm and impale him through the chest in one move*, and Zabuza is faster than Tsunade is.

Likewise, we've seen Sasuke (who shared Kakashi's speed tier) keep up with a faster Raikage thanks to Sharingan.  We've seen KN0 Naruto go from rag-dolling Sasuke to missing every single punch upon Sasuke's activation of 3T.  We've seen Sasuke pressure Deidara with his speed, despite sharing the same speed tier, due to the accurate Shunshins that the Sharingan's precog allows him to perform.



> Jugo blocking A wasn't off-panel, as shown in the scan I provided.



And all he did was block - this isn't keeping up in some sort of extended exchange, though, which is what you are trying to prove.



> Forcing your opponent to leap away from you or causing the landscape to explode is indeed impeding your opponent from attacking you. I don't see how you can read those scans, and come to the conclusion that any competent fighter will be un-phased by the ground beneath them literally exploding and either forcing or sending them flying.



Last time Tsunade tried punching the ground to bother her enemy, she got *blindsided* and tagged *multiple times*.

Was Tsunade rusty there? Sure.  But Akatsuki members / Kage and the people she is pitted against here in the BD in general are not Part 1 Kabuto, either.  She may have gotten better since then, but the people she is fighting are leagues upon leagues above Part 1 Kabuto.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## LostSelf (May 1, 2017)

Yoko said:


> Kisame confidently issued an open challenge to Hebi Sasuke (who he knows killed Orochimaru) as well as the rest of team Hebi. The guy



To add: Kisame mocked Deidara for losing against the man that killed Orochimaru.

"Hohoho! I thought he was strong". Basically called Deidara weak for that. Clearly Part 1 Kisame and Part 2 Kisame has... different views of the Sannin.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## Veracity (May 1, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Like what statements would be useless? I've got some statements made without knowledge and based it on general hype that ended up being wrong.
> 
> Ei saying he was the fastest man alive when one on the other side of the world could've amped his speed to god level is one. Orochimaru's general knowledge backfired twice on him. One against Hiruzen and one against Itachi. General hype on Deidara can lead to one being killed by C4. General knowledge helps to make an idea on how powerful a character can be. But not as exactly as seeing that person fight.
> 
> ...



Uh you provided a couple right there actually. Ay's statement is 100% valid despite not having 100% knowledge on everyone. Kishi clearly made him say that for a reason I mean come on. Gai surpassing that speed for approximately 3 min doesn't dethrone Ay as he gains his title right back lol.

Oro's general knowledge backfired when? It really was his cock personality. He knew the sharingan possses ocular genjustu yet still looked in his eyes. Oro never really viewed himself superior to Itachi ever anyway, he always knew he was weaker. Against Hiruzen he was cocky by his own statements.

Itachi got retconned after meeting Jirayia. Before that Tsuande was calling him a scrub.

Yeah their achievements after gaining the title of Sannin is what molded them into such powerful shinobi that's clear. I view the Sannin as equal but that's a different argument all together.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sasuke supplied Obito with that information and then it made its way to Kisame. Sasuke made it clear more than once that he only beat Oro because of his condition. Kisame's statement doesn't matter anyway as he's known to be cocky. He was planning on taking on all Leaf's Jonin before Itachi told him that wouldn't be wise and Itachi made it clear that he had to warn Kisame about Gai's power; so clearly Kisame just doesn't give a darn. That doesn't he actually stands a chance.

I don't believe so either tbh, but aside from that statement, the Sannin are still viewed on a higher level so..


----------



## LostSelf (May 1, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Uh you provided a couple right there actually. Ay's statement is 100% valid despite not having 100% knowledge on everyone. Kishi clearly made him say that for a reason I mean come on. Gai surpassing that speed for approximately 3 min doesn't dethrone Ay as he gains his title right back lol.



It actually doesn't matter. Gai was the fastest man alive until he died from the 8th gates. Ei is basically one example, regarding Gai of many. Kisame and Madara also underestinating them due to lack of knowledge and Gai proving he's actually someone that can kick your ass. Lack of knowledge led them into that.

Now, when Gai died with the 8th gate, then yeah, Ei would be. However, we can go in further, Naruto was already faster than Ei when Ei said that.



Veracity said:


> Oro's general knowledge backfired when? It really was his cock personality. He knew the sharingan possses ocular genjustu yet still looked in his eyes. Oro never really viewed himself superior to Itachi ever anyway, he always knew he was weaker. Against Hiruzen he was cocky by his own statements.



He didn't know of Death Reaper, and he didn't know of Totsuka in Itachi's possession. He's cocky, but not stupid. Both things dismantled him for that. 



Veracity said:


> Itachi got retconned after meeting Jirayia. Before that Tsuande was calling him a scrub.



Or maybe they were talking about their general knowledge and are also examples of how this can backfire. Itachi was introduced in the forest of death when Sasuke used him to motivate himself against Orochimaru. I don't think Itachi was retconned. The Sannin are arrogant by default. Mostly the men.



Veracity said:


> Yeah their achievements after gaining the title of Sannin is what molded them into such powerful shinobi that's clear. I view the Sannin as equal but that's a different argument all together.



I don't, unless we say Tsunade and Jiraiya are Orochimaru with part 2 Edo Tensei level. In case they are equal, Tsunade shouldn't be equal to them battlewise, because then, adding her extremely awesome support would make her generally superior to them. Wich would break that rule.



Veracity said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Sasuke supplied Obito with that information and then it made its way to Kisame. Sasuke made it clear more than once that he only beat Oro because of his condition. Kisame's statement doesn't matter anyway as he's known to be cocky. He was planning on taking on all Leaf's Jonin before Itachi told him that wouldn't be wise and Itachi made it clear that he had to warn Kisame about Gai's power; so clearly Kisame just doesn't give a darn. That doesn't he actually stands a chance.



Sasuke was not the most talkative of the bunch. Also, Kisame faced Sasuke before Itachi's death. Sasuke had nothing to do with Obito back then. Also, with Gai, it's like i said. Lack of knowledge leads to underestimation or a sense of security. Gai had not much fame. Kisame's famed swordsman and Bijuu without a tail got his ass kicked by that. Gai is a prime example of how one can prove fame and general knowledge wrong. 

The Sannin, on the other hand, are known,are famed. Kisame already expressed respect. For him to not do it in part 2 after doing it in part one can point to him getting a lot stronger. Or not respecting Oro, but respecting Jiraiya.



Veracity said:


> I don't believe so either tbh, but aside from that statement, the Sannin are still viewed on a higher level so..



Edit: Sent the message quick because something unexpected happened:

I have no troubles seeing them above. But battlewise (Talking about Tsunade here) it can be a different thing with Kisame here. Adding her support overall, though, i then agree.


----------



## Veracity (May 1, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Tsunade was saved by Mei prior to her being in any serious danger to begin with. Do you not recall the massive firewave storming toward Tsunade after she hit Madara's Susano?
> 
> If we're counting how many times people were saved in that battle Tsunade is at the top of that list.
> 1. Saved by Mei
> ...



Tsuande was never saved by Mei. Using Mei( only person with large scale Suiton) to distinguish a Katon instead of tanking it with Byakago or dodging is logical.  Tsuande didn't even begin to move because she knew Mei had her back.

Saved by Oro? Are you serious? If you count that then All the other Kage were saved by Oro also. But yes I'm gonna go by your logic. Let's count how many times Mei was saved real quick:

• Tsuande healed Mei to begin with.
• Saved by Onoki/Gaara as she cannot survive Yasaka beads like Tsuande can.
• Saved by Onoki 
• Saved by Gaara
• Saved by Tsuande( when she batted the Katon away)
• Saved by Tsuande when she started healing them at the end.
• Saved by Oro who helped Tsuande 

That's 7.

Yeah now I'm convinced we aren't reading the same manga. Mei outright stated that Madara attempting to kill Tsuande first was a basic tactic and Madara himself stated that the other Kage were fucked then moment he thought Tsuande was dead. Aside from that, Tsuande healed Gaara and Onoki from the start, then healed Mei, chakra boosted Onoki , and saved them at the end all on panel. to assume the greatest medical shinobi wasn't doing her job is crazy.  

1. Mortally wounded means what when Tsuande can regenerate? Who was saved from being completely killed? Mei and Ay. 

2. Mei required being saved 7 times. Remember that she's a glass cannon and cannot damage like Ay or Tsuande.

3. Being sloppy is sure as hell better than being killed on panel before the Gokage combo

4. If Tsuande did not have to heal Mei, Onoki, Gaara and Ay as well use SS from the jump and save them from dying she wouldn't have been chakra exhausted.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Reznor (May 1, 2017)

Tsunade wasn't dodging like she normally would. Raikage even said that she was being reckless by doing that (taking attacks so others don't have to or to emphasis offense)


----------



## Reznor (May 1, 2017)

Scenario 1.) Katsuyu is restricted
All except Konan, Itachi, 6 Body Pain, Tobi
Scenario 2.) No restrictions
Still loses to Tobi, has a shot at the others.
Might beat Konan, 6 Body Pain
Probably still loses to Itachi

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Veracity (May 1, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> It actually doesn't matter. Gai was the fastest man alive until he died from the 8th gates. Ei is basically one example, regarding Gai of many. Kisame and Madara also underestinating them due to lack of knowledge and Gai proving he's actually someone that can kick your ass. Lack of knowledge led them into that.
> 
> Now, when Gai died with the 8th gate, then yeah, Ei would be. However, we can go in further, Naruto was already faster than Ei when Ei said that.
> 
> ...


ILL get to this right after work


----------



## Reznor (May 1, 2017)

Kakazu, Sasori, Hidan are easy victores.
Deidara has a shot, but Tsunade can super throw shit. Deidara would win if started with distance and in a dessert.

Nagato with just his main body? He's slow and Tsunade's gonna punch whatever he tries to defend with.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Troyse22 (May 1, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Uh you provided a couple right there actually. Ay's statement is 100% valid despite not having 100% knowledge on everyone. Kishi clearly made him say that for a reason I mean come on. Gai surpassing that speed for approximately 3 min doesn't dethrone Ay as he gains his title right back lol.
> 
> Oro's general knowledge backfired when? It really was his cock personality. He knew the sharingan possses ocular genjustu yet still looked in his eyes. Oro never really viewed himself superior to Itachi ever anyway, he always knew he was weaker. Against Hiruzen he was cocky by his own statements.
> 
> ...




Kisame is cocky to those he perceives beneath him, but holds who he views above him in high regard. If someone is stronger than him he admits it, vis a vis P1 Kisame admitting inferiority to P1 Itachi and Jiraiya. He perceived himself above Orochimarus killer, as well as their group as a whole, not only this but Kisame outright states he won't go easy on them, implying he could if he felt like it and get away with it.

Feats along with statements dictate Kisame is well above the Sannin
 Itachi also never states they wouldn't have a chance to take on Konoha Jounin, in fact Itachi even says Kisame is outright superior to one of the strongest jounin at the time, Kakashi.

I don't think Itachi and Kisame could have beaten them all at that time, especially if we take Gai into account with the 7th and presumably 8th gate. As long as Gai lives and is in the village, no non god tier could decisively have defeated Konoha

But Kisame is not arrogant in the face of opponents stronger than himself, in fact he considered Gai, a man he hated as his biggest rival, despite how much he insulted Gai in their first 2 battles. Sasuke is not the exception, it's pretty clear P2 Kisame saw himself on a whole different level than his P1 self, and he has the feats supporting that line of thinking.


LostSelf said:


> The Sannin, on the other hand, are known,are famed. Kisame already expressed respect. For him to not do it in part 2 after doing it in part one can point to him getting a lot stronger. Or not respecting Oro, but respecting Jiraiya.



I doubt he respected Jiraiya come P2, considering the Sannin were clearly overhyped in P1, and after finding out that one was taken down by a mere child, Kisame likely lost all respect for the title and it's Shinobi as a whole.


----------



## JiraiyaFlash (May 2, 2017)

Anyone except dojutsu trio.

Her title, portrayal, reputation, score and feats all of them supports that outcome.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Isaiah13000 (May 2, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> First of all, structure your posts correctly. No one wants to read through a paragraph looking for key points.


 I was in the middle of doing something else when I wrote that post, so I was kind of rushing. I don't usually post like that.



> Second, using Creation Rebirth to heal minor wounds on her body isn't an excuse for being mortally wounded by Madara 4 times, the only one to be mortally wounded by Pre-PS Madara at all.


 Madara specifically targeted her because she was Hashirama's granddaughter, and because she was the team medic. She wasn't "mortally wounded" either, it had little to no effect on her.



> Third, healing Gaara & Onoki wouldn't have been necessary if they also didn't have to defeat 3 Edo Kage themselves and you cannot heal mental and physical strain of battling 3 Edo Kage it doesn't matter who the medic is.


 How does this change the fact that this used up some of her chakra and by default affected her performance later on? Gaara has a 5 in stamina, his chakra reserves are large. For her to have to heal him and Onoki simultaneously back to 100% would've bothered her later down the road.



> Fourth, being stabbed through the body 3 times by large susano blades, hit at point blank with magatama and slashed in half by PS are all negative points when evaluating a shinobi's battle performance. Her sloppy performance, reflected in these 5 mortal wounds, is part of the reason why she was the first Gokage defeated by Madara and required Dan to restore her reserves.


 Not when they barely have any effect on you, allow you to take your opponent by surprise, and even overwhelm your opponent. Mei was the first to fall, she would've died without Gaara's intervention. Why do you keep ignoring that?



> You don't brush that to the side, they are all horrible features, even the first wounding by Madara which she implied was intentional to catch him off guard, which is utter bullshit when we consider the facial expression of Tsunade while being wounded, happened because she had no possible way to pressure Madara other than being mortally wounded first, and then counter attacking, which is more of a negative feature than a positive one. She essentially had to be killed by Madara first to even pressure him offensively, that is what that feature implied. It's horrible.


 No it's not, it had little effect on her. If it didn't do much to her, then it doesn't matter. You're basically saying "without her signature technique that makes her so strong, she would've died, so her performance sucks" which is horrendous logic and could be applied to many characters and would make many of their performances suck. I expected a much better argument than this.



> Fifth, Tsunade did nothing to any of the Susano Clones, her direct strikes couldn't even crack the temple of a V3 Susano Clone. Sure, she cracked part of a V2 Susano, but to absolutely no avail - and this is after Mei spit Madara into a striking position with her water dragon, prior to that Tsunade would have been slaughtered by the counter firewave he spit at her before Mei acted, so she was essentially defeated before even striking the susano a second time.


 She actually did slightly crack the face of the Susanoo clone, and she punched it so hard it's head spun around and fell over. That is better than what any of the other Kage did to them excluding Onoki. There is also absolutely no indication that the wave of fire that Madara launched at her would've done anything significant to her at all.



> Sixth, Ei was holding off his 5 clones just fine until Tsunade showed she was slowing and fighting sloppy which distracted him into Genjutsu, Gaara was doing the same handling both his clones and supporting Mei subsequently, Mei was not close to dying, she blocked a Susano punch and it did absolutely no damage to her body as she was melting a V3 Susano with acid mist.


 I'm legitimately convinced we aren't reading the same manga here. A holding them off is not better than Tsuande overwhelming one on her own. Mei was literally about to get stabbed and die had Gaara not come to her rescue.



> Tsunade was doing any better than any of the Gokage, none of them. She was doing significantly worse in actuality, hence her being ridiculously mortally wounded several times in combat by them, while none of them even receiving a single moderate wound from the Susano.


 No, you're spewing nonsense and misconstruing everything that happened in that fight.



> Seventh, the Super Dust Release can be attributed to Dan and Dan only, who saved Tsunade's life allowing her to be in that position alive, and restoring her yin seal to prestine condition prior to moving on, allowing her the chakra to then pump into Onoki's Cube.


 What the hell? As I said beforehand, Tsunade [DLMURL="[DLMURL][DLMURL][DLMURL]Link removed"]helped[/DLMURL] Onoki do that before Dan saved her.



> Tsunade, alongside the Gokage for possible support, was defeated by Madara before he used PS. This is canon, she fainted in mid shunshin, her byakugo was turned off, and was falling into Madara's Susano Slash and none of the Gokage could do anything.


 I've already addressed this.



> Eighth, Tsunade was killed by Madara's PS as well, not healing the Gokage wouldn't have helped her in anyway, Katsuyu isn't capable of reattaching a severed body alone, and Tsunade passed out moments after she summoned, she would have bled out and slowly died if Orochimaru did not arrive.


 All of them would've died if Orochimaru hadn't gone there. Hell, they all would've died before Tsunade died had she not been keeping them alive until Oro got there.



> That is a relatively minor feature in all honestly, especially when you consider it was done post-battle when Madara had already defeated all of them. It is literally not even part of her features against Madara, the battle was already over, if it wasn't Madara would have come over and stomped her face into mush to ensure she was dead, there would be no healing of the Gokage whatsoever.


 The fact that she was the last one left standing even when her injuries were more severe is definitely a noteworthy feature. I'm disappointed DaVizWiz, this is the type of argument you'd expect from some type of anti-Tsunade troll. Not a good debater who has made many good arguments before and has been around for quite a while.



Yoko said:


> I don't think you understand what the term "subjective" means.
> 
> It is 100% fine if you think Tsunade performed amazingly in the War Arc.  You are entitled to that opinion and I am not going to try and disprove thay.  It is not indisputable, undeniable fact, because I don't agree and clearly several others share that opinion.  You are presenting your opinion as if it were infallible.


 The only other people who would disagree with Tsunade having a great performance in the War Arc are those who misconstrue the manga and/or are anti-Sannin fanboys. Anyone who has read that fight without any type of bias or flawed logic would agree that Tsunade's performance was second to Onoki's. Was A, Gaara, or Mei praised individually by Madara like Tsuande and Onoki were? No. Did A, Gaara, or Mei overwhelm a Susanoo Wood Clone? No, only Tsunade and Onoki did. Did A, Gaara, and Mei's efforts vaporize 25 Susanoo Wood Clones and some of Madara's body? No, only Tsunade and Onoki's did. You literally cannot read that fight and come to the conclusion that she was worse than anyone except for Onoki unless you're using some poor logic and/or bias.



> Major shifting of goal posts here.  Never once did I imply Kisame was a better healer / supplementary support fighter than Tsunade is.  Tsunade is the best support / healer in the manga - I never disputed that.  This has absolutely no relevance with her combat skill.  I trimmed the fat from your post because you continue to fixate on Tsunade being the star of the Madara battle as if it were fact.  It is not fact - it is your opinion, and I disagree with it.


 No. The problem here is you think that her defensive and supplementary abilities do not count towards her combat capabilities: even though they can be used in combat to assist herself and her allies. I didn't say she was the star, Onoki was the star, and Tsunade was second to that.



> How, exactly? If Kisame could counter it, how does that illustrate Jiraiya's superiority?
> 
> Kisame choosing to run from a situation that he either (A) could not counter without compromising his team mate and (B) may not have had a counter for back in Part 1 in no way implies Jiraiya is superior to Part 2 Kisame.  Again, whether or not Jiraiya can beat Part 2 Kisame is another topic but to imply that he is undeniably superior based on an outdated Part 1 scene is baseless.


 I'm not basing my entire argument on that, only a part of it. Jiraiya was established as Kisame's superior in Part 1, and that continued into Part 2 with what Jiraiya had accomplished there (everything pertaining to his fight with Pain).



> Kisame confidently issued an open challenge to Hebi Sasuke (who he knows killed Orochimaru) as well as the rest of team Hebi. The guy openly fought Jinchuuriki and the Raikage's brother (and owner of the second strongest Bijuu).  It isn't the same iteration of the version afraid to fight the Sannin. Why not refer to this instance instead?


 Because this doesn't change the fact that they're all still depicted as his superior throughout the whole manga. The level of portrayal that they all have is superior to his, the only time anyone thinks Kisame is better is when they're either overrating Kisame or downplaying one of the Sannin: even if they're unaware of it.



> And what stats would get better if Gaara is in a desert? He has a 5 in Ninjutsu and a 5 in stamina, which are the only important things for his fighting style.  He is maxed out where he needs to be maxed out - his Genjutsu, Taijutsu, handseals and intelligence aren't going to magically go up just because he is in a desert.  Being in a desert will only bolster his already existing strengths.
> 
> Which brings me to my next point - stat totals also fail to take into account people who are beyond a single stats maximum threshold.  In Gaara's case, he has a 5 in Ninjutsu without a desert, but would still get a 5 even if he were in a desert simply because 5 is the highest stat.  Gaara in a desert is stronger than Gaara outside of a desert, but they'd still have the same stat total.
> 
> ...


 I don't disagree with anything you've said here bar the stat totals being meaningless. If Kishimoto viewed them as entirely meaningless, he wouldn't have gave Jiraiya and Itachi - established equals (or at least on the same level), the same stat total. Then there's the Sannin who's stat totals are higher than Kisame's, Sasori's who is higher than Deidara's, Kakashi's who is higher than Zabuza's, ect. Like I stated before, the stats are referring to one's base statistics and they're already maxed out for some characters. There's also the fact that I said if they fall in line with preexisting portrayal then there's nothing wrong with using them in your argument. I never said all stats were perfectly infallible.



> Raikage's *hair spiked up in the very scan I posted* (just like he did in yours) and two pages later he is on the ground after .  How is that powering up after the Lariat exchange? He powered up two pages before, charged at Killer Bee, and got put on the ground at the last page of the chapter.
> 
> The second power up you are listing is when he powered up against Naruto.  The first was against Killer Bee which was what I cited, and he got floored.


 Killer B pointed out that he was at top power, which he didn't do before, so he mustn't have been V2 then. Even if he was, Kisame surviving V2 Killer B's Lariat doesn't mean he'd survive Tsunade's punches for reasons I've already explained. There's also the fact that Samehada cushioned the impact for Kisame and Kisame only survived cause he used the chakra Samehada absorbed to heal himself. He cannot do that against Tsunade, so he would die from a single punch or kick.



> By the fourth stab wound on panel she was showing fatigue - we have no proof that she was getting stabbed for hours on end.


 What a ridiculous argument, we know Tsunade has been fighting them for hours and and they've been trying to kill her (as evident by the swords in her abdomen) and you're implying it only takes four stabs before she starts to give out? Simply because that's how many times we've seen her get stabbed? Despite her fighting them off-panel for who knows how long?



> Not really sure where you are going with this - Kakashi choosing to block while walking backwards is not a detriment to his speed and does not speak to the speed disparity between him and Hidan.


 Kakashi was not fast enough to completely leave Hidan's attack range and escape his scythe. Therefore, the speed disparity is not great enough to mean that much.



> Not really.  Her jumping off Katsuyu's head to reach Manda gave her higher starting elevation to kick off of so that wasn't purely her.


 How do you know she leaped off of Katsuyu's head?


> And nothing implies Madara's height was anywhere close to where Deidara could fly.


 You're right, but like I said before, Deidara doesn't usually fly that high unless he has to. If Deidara is only at the altitude he was when he fought Sasuke, then based off of what Tsunade did against Manda she could reach him.



> Even if you want to say that Tsunade can jump higher than Sasuke, she isn't jumping higher than CS2 Sasuke + wing boost + an additional 20 feet range that Chidori Eiso gave him.


 Do you know how big Manda and Gamabunta are? How big the boss summons are in general? The  altitude that Deidara was at when fighting Hebi Sasuke is around the same as how high Tsunade leaped. That's what Tsunade did when carrying such a heavy sword too, she'd be able to leap even higher without it.



> Again, even if you want to go there - Gaara can control his sand and change its trajectory midair.  Katsuyu's acid is literally just spit with a linear trajectory - it isn't hitting a flying Deidara when sand that could change direction in mid-air at Gaara's whim couldn't hit him.


 Alright, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. However, Deidara having to dodge so much is going to make it difficult for him to hit her and the acid may very well intercept the explosives and cause them to explode prematurely.



> No it wouldn't - they would dodge and jump out of the way accordingly, perhaps even capitalize on the debris she kicked up for a follow-up attack.


 That's not what Orochimaru nor Kabuto did. Instead, they flat-out ran away.



> Sasori was holding back and Sakura had significant support in the form of Chiyo.


 Chiyo and Sasori both praised her for it though, and she is even worse at it than Tsunade is.



> When she pulled out two Susano'o blades from her gut (which were the third and fourth mortal injuries she incurred on panel), she was clearly slowing down to the point Raikage pointed it out.  Taking repeated Raiton Gians to her body / face will replicate that damage and leave her in a similar state.


 It would take hours of punishment before she reaches that state though.



> Landing collaborative hits on Madara in a team combo with four other Kages? Sure.  I don't see them replicating what Tsunade did as far as taking the injuries she took and damaging Susano'o as they lack her regen and striking power, but that doesn't have anything to do with her speed which is what we were addressing.


 We'll have to agree to disagree here then, because to me that was a clear speed feat and I don't think I can make you believe it was.



> Of course it does, because for all we know, it could mean they toned down their movements to make sure Tsunade can keep up.  It certainly makes more sense than Tsunade keeping up with a lightened V2 Raikage.


 The first sentence is speculation, and I have addressed the second already.



> Absolutely nothing indicates that Tsunade's regeneration is superior to Hashirama's (which is further amped by Sage Mode) to the extent she could pull off things that far above what he could.  Madara compared it to Tsunade's - to arbitrarily assume Tsunade's is significantly better has no basis, especially when none of her feats imply it.


 Tsunade's can regenerate limbs though, Hashirama's cannot, therefore her's is superior.



> This undercuts the whole purpose of wearing Onoki as a backpack - .  Saying "no it is Onoki's speed" is in direct conflict with the scan I listed above.


 That was when they were on the ground, A's speed doesn't count when they're in the air.



> Or Madara was clearly bored and playing around with them and drew out the battle for as long as he could.  I mean, the .  You drawing the conclusion that she was actively avoiding them off panel is based on nothing.


 It's based on us seeing them trying to kill them. So playing around or not, they were trying to kill all of them, and Tsunade didn't die so she could hold them off.



> A healing jutsu? An unknown elemental she may have had? Who knows? But stating it is undoubtedly Katsuyu she was summoning there is an assumption.


 The only other time that Tsunade has bothered to use a hand seal is for Creation Rebirth. She already had the successor to that active, so it was obviously Katsuyu. There is literally nothing else she uses hand seals for no there is anything else in her arsenal that would be better to summon than Katsuyu at that moment. It is clearly the most logical conclusion to come to.



> Databook lists him an entire tier above her, and Sharingan's precog allows him to move at even faster speeds than he'd normally be able to without it (Raikiri / Chidori charges, accurate Shunshin usage, etc), which further stacks upon his already superior stat.  We have seen Kakashi chop off Zabuza's , and Zabuza is faster than Tsunade is.
> 
> Likewise, we've seen Sasuke (who shared Kakashi's speed tier) keep up with a faster Raikage thanks to Sharingan.  We've seen KN0 Naruto go from rag-dolling Sasuke to missing every single punch upon Sasuke's activation of 3T.  We've seen Sasuke pressure Deidara with his speed, despite sharing the same speed tier, due to the accurate Shunshins that the Sharingan's precog allows him to perform.


 That's not enough to make me believe he is so much faster that she cannot touch him considering what she did in the Five Kage battle and slower characters being able to keep up with faster characters throughout the manga. I still stick to the Hidan vs Kakashi situation, which to me is evidence that it doesn't matter that much.



> And all he did was block - this isn't keeping up in some sort of extended exchange, though, which is what you are trying to prove.


 C said they were keeping up, and praised them for it, so obviously it was meant to be seen as impressive.



> Last time Tsunade tried punching the ground to bother her enemy, she got *blindsided* and tagged .
> 
> Was Tsunade rusty there? Sure.  But Akatsuki members / Kage and the people she is pitted against here in the BD in general are not Part 1 Kabuto, either.  She may have gotten better since then, but the people she is fighting are leagues upon leagues above Part 1 Kabuto.


What Tsunade should be capable of doing now should be comparable to Sakura though, and that is leagues above what Tsunade did back then too.
Note: A lot of your links are broken by the way.

Reactions: Informative 1


----------



## Drizzy (May 2, 2017)

The strongest Akatsuki member(s) Tsunade has a solid chance at defeating is either Kakuzu or Sasori. 

Based on feats alone, Kisame isn't a discussion, unless we're restricting him to his 30% form. Itachi, Nagato, and Obito are also far out of her reach. 

Though, it seems this site insists on operating under hype or portrayal rather than feats, which makes the topic much more interesting. Going by part 2 hype and portrayal, Kisame is still above that of a Sannin. Evidently shown with the lack of respect Orochimaru received amongst the Akatsuki, especially concerning Itachi. When Orochimaru threatened Itachi, he was fodderized with a mere 3T. When Kisame threatened Itachi upon their first meeting, Itachi waisted no time activating his MS. Kisame's threat level demanded the MS, while Orochimaru only required a 3T to handle, whom was taken into consideration to be Hokage far before Tsunade (the last resort amongst the Sannin).

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 3


----------



## Troyse22 (May 2, 2017)

Drizzy said:


> Though, it seems this site insists on operating under hype or portrayal rather than feats, which makes the topic much more *ridiculous/stupid*



Ftfy man


----------



## Serene Grace (May 2, 2017)

- Mei did better than Tsunade against Madara
The moment you realize 

The moment you realize that , same Susanoo clone that was trashing everybody but Onoki who even had knowledge at his disposal while fighting them . Lmao even if you say Mei was outnumbered, Tsunade would still be fighting while Mei would have been dead, now Mei can't do better than Tsunade when she's dead right

The moment you realize that Tsunade's, yes , .

But hey Madara even disagrees with your point but because it's Tsunade we have to downplay her.

@Veracity I see what you mean man, about her getting downplayed absolutely ludicrous 
_
_

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Drizzy (May 2, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Ftfy man



We don't necessarily disagree there. I was just saying, for the sake of debating/discussion, I think you'd have to bring portrayal/hype into the equation in order to attempt at placing Tsunade against the higher tier Akatsuki. Based off feats alone, Tsunade gets destroyed by everyone in the Akatsuki not named Sasori, Kakuzu, Hidan, Konan, and Zetsu.

I personally weigh feats above all other factors, however based on my observation, the criteria this site primarily operates with is hype and portrayal.


----------



## Jad (May 3, 2017)

Drizzy said:


> We don't necessarily disagree there. I was just saying, for the sake of debating/discussion, I think you'd have to bring portrayal/hype into the equation in order to attempt at placing Tsunade against the higher tier Akatsuki. Based off feats alone, Tsunade gets destroyed by everyone in the Akatsuki not named Sasori, Kakuzu, Hidan, Konan, and Zetsu.
> 
> I personally weigh feats above all other factors, however based on my observation, the criteria this site primarily operates with is hype and portrayal.


Only when its a Sannin member that hype and portrayal from Part 1 means a wealth more than anything else. Sannin always get the benefit of the doubt on this forum. The word Sannin has became a catch all statement for winning in every match.

Sannin hype is almost non existant in Part 2.

I bet you've seen posts before where a Sannin member hasn't displayed any way to counter an opponents move, so they use 'hype of being a Sannin and above said opponents portayal' thus they MUST win the match up.


----------



## Troyse22 (May 3, 2017)

Jad said:


> Only when its a Sannin member that hype and portrayal from Part 1 means a wealth more than anything else. Sannin always get the benefit of the doubt on this forum. The word Sannin has became a catch all statement for winning in every match.
> 
> Sannin hype is almost non existant in Part 2.
> 
> I bet you've seen posts before where a Sannin member hasn't displayed any way to counter an opponents move, so they use 'hype of being a Sannin and above said opponents portayal' thus they MUST win the match up.




Kisame admitted inferiority back in P1, despite shitloads happening in P2 contradicting his statement.

But his outdated statement holds because
Wait for it

Because they're the Sannin


----------



## Veracity (May 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame is cocky to those he perceives beneath him, but holds who he views above him in high regard. If someone is stronger than him he admits it, vis a vis P1 Kisame admitting inferiority to P1 Itachi and Jiraiya. He perceived himself above Orochimarus killer, as well as their group as a whole, not only this but Kisame outright states he won't go easy on them, implying he could if he felt like it and get away with it.
> 
> Feats along with statements dictate Kisame is well above the Sannin
> Itachi also never states they wouldn't have a chance to take on Konoha Jounin, in fact Itachi even says Kisame is outright superior to one of the strongest jounin at the time, Kakashi.
> ...


Uhh Kisame seemed pretty cocky even against Killer despite having his chest cavity eradicated and having never faced Bee at full power. He was also pretty cocky against Gai and Kakashi despite not being much stronger than either of them. Matter of fact, Kisame's been cocky in every single one his encounters with enemies except maybe Gai. And even then I'm pretty sure I can fish up a scan of Kisame underestimating Gai.


I disagree with feats and portrayal indicating that Kisame is above the Sannin. But no amount of arguing is going to sway your opinion or my opinion so we honestly can just disagree here.


I'll check the official translations for what Itachi says although I remember Itachi saying Kisame could not beat Kakashi without taking heavy damage.


I do believe Kisame was somewhat retconned in Part 2 I agree with you there. He is clearly superior to Part 1 Kakashi and would not have problems taking him down.





LostSelf said:


> It actually doesn't matter. Gai was the fastest man alive until he died from the 8th gates. Ei is basically one example, regarding Gai of many. Kisame and Madara also underestinating them due to lack of knowledge and Gai proving he's actually someone that can kick your ass. Lack of knowledge led them into that.
> 
> Now, when Gai died with the 8th gate, then yeah, Ei would be. However, we can go in further, Naruto was already faster than Ei when Ei said that.
> 
> ...


We're gonna have to disagree here tbh. Gai being faster than Ay for 3 minutes doesn't make him the fastest shinobi in the world. If Ay asked Gai to race to judge his speed Ay would not have to contend against 8th Gate Gai. Gai may have gained the title of fastest in the world for the duration of his fight with Madara but he lost the title right when the Gates wore off therefore Ay was the fastest shinobi in the world as long as Gai wasn't using the 8th Gate.


Yes but Oro lacking knowledge didn't place him on a lower level than Hiruzen. It just highlighted the fact that Oro's personality fucked him over in the battle. In regards to Itachi, Oro knew he was inferior even without knowledge of Totsuka. 


Except Hiruzen was running around gassing Itachi up at the age of like 8. He also was leading the Anbu at 8 years old and retained a legacy of murdering the entire Uchiha clan. Basic knowledge of MS was also available to shinobi like Raikage so I really doubt that Tsuande overlooked all these facts to simply downplay Itachi for no reason; thinking that Part 1 Kakashi would be fine against him and Kisame. Clear that Itachi was retconned to be superior to that later on in the manga.


I usually ignore Part 2 Edo based on the exact circumstances Oro had to achieve to pull that off. I look at Hiruzen fight Oro as the man in his prime. Tsuande can use her support abilities to help herself though. Healing is basically regeneration, Katsuyu can be used to offensively/defensively help Tsuande, and Byakago can be used to boost Katsuyu's acid. 


You're completely right about the timeline. I fucked that whole thing up lol. But regardless thats a part of Kisame's character. He is cocky and doesn't care which was the case against Asuma, Kakashi, Gai, and Sasuke. Jirayia and Gai( after catching an L) are the only people he really gave outright praise to.


That's because Gai not only didn't do anything to gain hype but was growing stronger from Part 1 to the end of Part 2.  The Sannin had past accomplishments that made them great and members like Tsuande and Oro were still progressing tremendously. Not only that but Gai is Kisame's kryptonite.


I generally see all the Sannin a step above Kisame in terms of power especially considering Tsuande uses all of her support abilities to bolster her own move set. That doesn't mean they stomp Kisame, just that they are superior.


----------



## LostSelf (May 3, 2017)

Veracity said:


> We're gonna have to disagree here tbh. Gai being faster than Ay for 3 minutes doesn't make him the fastest shinobi in the world. If Ay asked Gai to race to judge his speed Ay would not have to contend against 8th Gate Gai. Gai may have gained the title of fastest in the world for the duration of his fight with Madara but he lost the title right when the Gates wore off therefore Ay was the fastest shinobi in the world as long as Gai wasn't using the 8th Gate.



I actually think 7th gated Gai's feat against Juudara is a testament of him being at least equal to Ei if not faster. I just want to avoid going there because that would make the argument a lot longer for something not entirely about Tsunade vs Kisame. But, even if we agree that Juudara didn't go all out on Gai, we have to remember how he dismantled other shinobis such as Minato, who didn't get close. Juudara's facial expression when Gai rushed towards him means Gai managed to slip there and Gaara's reaction supporting it being a parallel to what Gaara saw with Rock Lee.

I explain myself. When Gaara faced Rock Lee, Rocky showed him a kind of speed Gaara never saw in his life before. To the point of him doubting if Lee was human. Rock Lee showed him that level of speed Gaara possibly didn't know existed.

Wich takes us to Part 2 Gaara having the same reaction he had with Lee when he saw Gai going _all out _for the first time in the 7th gate.We have three thing over there: Gai reaching (the panel itself), Madara's surprised face and Gaara's comment as he once again saw a kind of speed he hasn't seen before. 

But like i said, KCM Naruto is another example. Ei thought he was the fastest man alive due to general fame and for a good reason also. But he wasn't. Naruto there was already faster than him. With 8th Gated Gai it doesn't matter the time limit on his speed. He has the speed. As long as he lives, he is the fastest man alive as well as the strongest person before Juubi Jins were introduced. But we can agree to disagree there. 



Veracity said:


> Yes but Oro lacking knowledge didn't place him on a lower level than Hiruzen. It just highlighted the fact that Oro's personality fucked him over in the battle. In regards to Itachi, Oro knew he was inferior even without knowledge of Totsuka.



But Orochimaru thought he could get away with it and kill Itachi that time. He basically waited for Itachi to be blind and exhausted. That backfired. In regards to Hiruzen, he wasn't put in a lower level but it's something he could've possibly avoided if he didn't think he had it in his bag.



Veracity said:


> Except Hiruzen was running around gassing Itachi up at the age of like 8. He also was leading the Anbu at 8 years old and retained a legacy of murdering the entire Uchiha clan. Basic knowledge of MS was also available to shinobi like Raikage so I really doubt that Tsuande overlooked all these facts to simply downplay Itachi for no reason; thinking that Part 1 Kakashi would be fine against him and Kisame. Clear that Itachi was retconned to be superior to that later on in the manga.



Then she thought herself stronger. Like Jiraiya thought himself enough to handle them. They had basic knowledge on MS but Jiraiya didn't know what Amaterasu was. Susano'o was unknown. Wich is vital to make them both Tsunade and Jiraiya a false sense of security considering they think their power is enough to handle them. Jiraiya was very surprised when he found out someone killed Hanzo, for example. He was very sure of Hanzo's hype and power and was surprised.

No fame doesn't mean below others with fame. Because Pain had none outside, and if Pain all of a sudden confronted any Kage with a lot of fame, they would've had a terrible surprise. About Itachi's retcon, i'm not sure. I mean, we can say someone was retconned if they were weaker or had little fame in one part and then on the other their fame/feats are huge. We can't say Itachi was retconned because we never saw him fighting before. Of course, there's Itachi's statement on Jiraiya, though. But Jiraiya looked pretty fucked up when Itachi used Amaterasu. Very surprised, i mean. 



Veracity said:


> I usually ignore Part 2 Edo based on the exact circumstances Oro had to achieve to pull that off. I look at Hiruzen fight Oro as the man in his prime. Tsuande can use her support abilities to help herself though. Healing is basically regeneration, Katsuyu can be used to offensively/defensively help Tsuande, and Byakago can be used to boost Katsuyu's acid.



But her support abilities on herself are counted when i mean battlewise. Her support abilities then grows more if you put her in a team, and her support is far beyond anything Jiraiya and Oro can do in a team fight. Therefore her general range should be above them. Wouldn't that break their equals? I think Kishi portrayed Sasuke, Naruto and Sakura to how the Sannin where before. Of course, not with the abysmal difference between the boys to Sakura, though. But their roles in fight.

I'm not sure about her combinations of Katsuyu. It looks like something she might do but somehow doesn't do. But like i said, if she's able to summon 50% Katsuyu (For example, i think she caps at 5) and boost it, that's way beyond Jiraiya and Orochimaru without Edo Tensei. I see Katsuyu more as support. 



Veracity said:


> You're completely right about the timeline. I fucked that whole thing up lol. But regardless thats a part of Kisame's character. He is cocky and doesn't care which was the case against Asuma, Kakashi, Gai, and Sasuke. Jirayia and Gai( after catching an L) are the only people he really gave outright praise to.



But this is different. Kisame always underestimated Gai. Itachi came and told him Gai is strong but Kisame never knew how much. Kisame is cocky but not with everybody. He acknowledges someone's power. He acknowledged Orochimaru and acknowledged the one that killed Orochimaru. Asuma and Kakashi's general fame was something Kisame wasn't surprised about.

With Orochimaru is a different thing because we saw him expressing doubts about his own fame compared to one Sannin. Here it's not a case when Kisame sees someone he knows nothing about. Here he's not expressing respect for the same title he expressed respect before. Here doesn't have to do with being cocky considering he humbled himself before in front of the same title. In part 2 he called Deidara weak for losing against the man that killed a Sannin. That implies retcon or that Kisame got pretty strong in those years.

Whatever it was, it's a solid proof that his part 1 statement holds no value anymore. And people somehow keep using it ignoring how Kisame trash talked indirectly the Sannin title years after he said he's shit compared with. 

To put it in other words: If i say i'm weak against X (Sannin title) but i'm cocky against Y (Gai), let's say in a UFC. But then two/three years later i mock X and express confidence against it. Me being cocky with Y doesn't mean i'm being cocky with X because my nature is being cocky considering i said i was weak compared to X before. It means i got strong enough to take that statement out of the way and prove i can handle it.

It means people should stop saying X will beat me because i said i was weak years ago. Especially if later i come physically stronger (feats) to back up my confidence with X. People then should stop and say i'm weaker or stronger than X with feats, not a past statement. Kisame still praised Gai that's true. But Kisame didn't know of the 7th gate nor Hirudora. He was confident Gai was going to lose there. Lack of knowledgte again. (Even though even with knowledge, unless Kisame merges with Samehada, Hirudora will still kill the sword and blow it away off his hands like Madara's fan and he'd be fucked still, but that's another thing)

The knowledge he had on the Sannin is different.



Veracity said:


> That's because Gai not only didn't do anything to gain hype but was growing stronger from Part 1 to the end of Part 2. The Sannin had past accomplishments that made them great and members like Tsuande and Oro were still progressing tremendously. Not only that but Gai is Kisame's kryptonite.



Yeah, Gai was an underground powerhouse people didn't take seriously. The Sannin had a war of fame in the past. It was the first thing Jiraiya hyped about Tsunade: _She contributed greatly to the second war_. Anyone that sees 8th gated Gai and Tsunade together would fear Tsunade more due to this.


Veracity said:


> I generally see all the Sannin a step above Kisame in terms of power especially considering Tsuande uses all of her support abilities to bolster her own move set. That doesn't mean they stomp Kisame, just that they are superior.



And that's fine, though. i generally put them above. I'm mostly talking about how part 1 Kisame's statement is not relevant anymore.


----------



## LostSelf (May 3, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> -
> 
> The moment you realize that , same Susanoo clone that was trashing everybody but Onoki who even had knowledge at his disposal while fighting them .



I don't think you're using the term "one-shot" correctly here.

If landing a hit is one-shot. Everyone one-shotted them. But the term one-shot is killing them in one blow. Not.... the case here.


----------



## Drizzy (May 3, 2017)

Jad said:


> Only when its a Sannin member that hype and portrayal from Part 1 means a wealth more than anything else. Sannin always get the benefit of the doubt on this forum. The word Sannin has became a catch all statement for winning in every match.
> 
> Sannin hype is almost non existant in Part 2.
> 
> I bet you've seen posts before where a Sannin member hasn't displayed any way to counter an opponents move, so they use 'hype of being a Sannin and above said opponents portayal' thus they MUST win the match up.



I can see that, especially with the immediate dislikes and negative reputation I've already received. Why is that though? Is it character bias, or do people really just genuinely believe in such flawed logic? If you ask me, it's silliness, and a horrible way to dictate a versus match. There are so many contradictions in Naruto, especially between part 1 and 2, almost no character is absolute in regards to hype and portrayal alone. It's essentially just picking and choosing whats convenient to your opinion, and disregarding everything else. 

A forum where people hold outdated part 1 statements above everything else is just... Wow, never mind.


----------

