# Looking for an anti-feminist manga



## ... (May 7, 2011)

Well, lately I am getting a little a little annoyed by the mangas/animes that I have read recently. Nearly all of them have some typical bossy girls/women and many of them are kind of selfish, because they are simply incapable of making any sacrifices for others. Of course, everyone have their preferences and I am not against these kind of mangas because I support free speech, but I do need a change of mood, a breath of fresh air. So, I want you guys recommend me some mangas where the females treat the males with some respect. 

Note: When I say anti-feminist, I don't mean weak or inferior capability women; rather, I mean the following:

1> The main female characters are not bossy and ordering around, but rather treat the males with respect.

2> They actually listen carefully, rather than talk non-stop. And when they talk, they show some logic and intelligence.

3> Are willing to make major sacrifices for their beloved male characters and make the male feel important.

4>Are kind and forgiving and understanding.

At least 3 of the above 4 criteria have to be satisfied.

Lastly, try to avoid shoujos, if possible, unless they have a special appeal for males.

EDIT:
OK, I am not just talking about the immature noisy girls trying to boss around, I am talking about any girl with arrogance that is trying to boss around. Being more powerful and mature only makes it worse.

EDIT2: OK, I realized that simple and honest females are quite likely to satisfy my criteria.


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## Punpun (May 7, 2011)

> 1> The main female characters are not bossy and ordering around, but rather treat the males with respect. *check*
> 
> 2> They actually listen carefully, rather than talk non-stop. And when they talk, they show some logic and intelligence. *check*
> 
> ...





> So, I want you guys recommend me some mangas where the females treat the males with some respect.



Hentai is the genre you're searching. :33


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## ... (May 7, 2011)

Punpun said:


> Hentai is the genre you're searching. :33


I want something other than hentai.
When I say respectful women, I am not talking about ultra-submissive women like in many hentai. Respectful means just that- respectful.


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## Mongoloid Gnome (May 7, 2011)

Well... You should read Memories of Emanon:

 brute force got past it

Take a look at the first pages and you'll see much of the stuff that you're lookin for. 

Also, there's this beautiful manga about a nomad tribe, can't remember the name, I'll look it for you.

Found it: brute force got past it

It's a great read. You shall find what you're looking for.

Both have strong women as main characters, and awesome artwork as well.


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## p-lou (May 7, 2011)

it shouldn't be hard to find a manga that only uses female characters to glorify, serve, and cater to males.


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## ... (May 7, 2011)

Mongoloid Gnome said:


> Well... You should read Memories of Emanon:
> 
> brute force got past it
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot, I will try this one. 
The second one, I have read already. It does fit my criteria.



p-lou said:


> it shouldn't be hard to find a manga that only uses female characters to glorify, serve, and cater to males.


It will be nice if you can name some of these mangas.
I absolutely don't mind if such glorification is returned or mirrored by male character to females.
____________
_As an example of the type of women that is OK with me - someone like Umino Miyuki from HAPPY! is just fine. As far as I have read, she was never really disrespectful and she tried her best to make sacrifices to fill her brother's debt. She is not ultra-submissive, just respectful. 

If a very submissive girl satisfies my criteria, then fine, but it is not a must or necessary quality that I am looking for._


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## Inuhanyou (May 7, 2011)

Tsundere's are a fact of life, deal with it


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## Mook Mook the Bushman (May 7, 2011)

nausicaa of the valley of the wind seems to be what you are looking for.

also try battle angel alita


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## Goom (May 7, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> Tsundere's are a fact of life, deal with it



I've only seen legit tsunderes in manga.  Someone hasn't been out much.

A tsundere in real life would get bitchslapped fast


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## Seto Kaiba (May 7, 2011)

Wait...it seems what you want *IS* a feminist manga. 

I mean, wouldn't an anti-feminist manga be the ones that enforce negative stereotypes of women?

Anyways:

GitS
Claymore
Battle Angel Alita
Soul Eater I guess


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## armorknight (May 7, 2011)

I really feel what the OP is saying, and I've noticed a lack of good female characters in anime/manga. Most of them tend to be too moe or are emasculating bitches. It's hard to find a good and respectable female character that isn't either of those.

Then again, male characters don't really fair much better since most of them are fangirl-bait, really stupid, or extremely pussified.


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## Inugami (May 7, 2011)

Majin Tantei Nogami Neuro xD


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## MdB (May 7, 2011)

I'm seriously gonna laugh my ass off if you by any change associate shitty tsundere characters with feminism.



Inuhanyou said:


> Tsundere's are a fact of life, deal with it



More like a cancerous rust that needs to disappear.


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## Velocity (May 7, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> Tsundere's are a fact of life, deal with it



One day they shall rule the world! 

But seriously... I suggest Claymore.


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## Mook Mook the Bushman (May 7, 2011)

if you want something were a women is in the kitchen and cooks try touch pretty sure minami cooks for ta-chan a few times


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## p-lou (May 7, 2011)

The Situation said:


> nausicaa of the valley of the wind seems to be what you are looking for.
> 
> also try battle angel alita



last i checked, kushana and nausicaa weren't there to make kurotowa and yupa feel good about themselves



Seto Kaiba said:


> Wait...it seems what you want *IS* a feminist manga.
> 
> I mean, wouldn't an anti-feminist manga be the ones that enforce negative stereotypes of women?



that's exactly what he's asking for

not that the stereotype he's complaining about is any better


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## Inuhanyou (May 7, 2011)

If your looking for an Anti Tsundere manga just say that, Anti Feminist has negative connotations


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## Punpun (May 7, 2011)

I found the manga you were searching (no hentai) *Bradherley's Coach*. 

Girls in it fits all your criteria and more much more. :33


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## Scarecrow Red (May 7, 2011)

You should read Franken Fran.

Fran-kun and Veronica-kun are perfect examples of the type of female character you are looking for. And then there is Gavrill who is the best of them all.


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## Punpun (May 7, 2011)

Bradherley's coach is where it's at.


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## Furious George (May 7, 2011)

You guys are mean for making fun of the OP. He was really nice about his wording and everything! It was funny () but totally uncalled for. 

Anyway, the correct answer is Naruto. 

And if you still don't feel like the man after reading through a series with females whose entire character hinges on who they like and who they don't like, then I would suggest playing Metroid: The Other M. I could practically feel myself become far more important then my girlfriend after that one.


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## Xion (May 7, 2011)

p-lou said:


> it shouldn't be hard to find a manga that only uses female characters to glorify, serve, and cater to males.



The OP should try Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto.

I hear it's just like this.


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## Inuhanyou (May 7, 2011)

I'm pretty sure Naruto is the most popular example of what the author is looking for 

You won't find any god damned "pro active" female representation there


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## Neo-jplaya (May 7, 2011)

If they had chicks in them, I would have said Cromartie high school.


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## Redshadow49 (May 7, 2011)

The description of the OP keeps bringing Breaker into my mind (awesome female character(s))

Beelzebub, Hilda is just


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## Fang (May 7, 2011)

Its called Negimaaaaaa.


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 7, 2011)

Fang said:


> Its called Negimaaaaaa.



pactio chapters aw yeah


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## Castiel (May 7, 2011)

It's threads like these that make me thankful to be alive.


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 7, 2011)

also VITA Sexualis

this guy would definitely love that manga


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## Abigail (May 7, 2011)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> pactio chapters aw yeah



Toaster loving.


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 7, 2011)

Abigail said:


> Toaster loving.





bitches should know their place when a MAN is around


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## Kira U. Masaki (May 7, 2011)

Naruto has sakura in it, who goes out of her way to make naruto feel like dirt for the majority of the manga, so i dont think that one counts; OP probably didnt phrase it right, but tsundere are without the worst stock character in existence


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## Endless Mike (May 8, 2011)

Fang said:


> Its called Negimaaaaaa.



Except Negima is full of incredibly competent, badass, intelligent, and powerful female characters.


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## Castiel (May 8, 2011)

Like a shark when there's blood in the water


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## Abigail (May 8, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Except Negima is full of incredibly competent, badass, intelligent, and powerful female characters.





> Crimson Dragoon says
> ahahaha
> speaking of EM
> how long until he comes running to that anti-feminist thread
> ...



Oh, Mike. So easy to predict.


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 8, 2011)

Kilogram said:


> Like a shark when there's blood in the water



just like Aldric when there's a retarded thread in the KL2 section 

well except for the fact that Aldric pulls it off much better


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## Endless Mike (May 8, 2011)

Just spreading the facts to counter ignorant bashing


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## Aokiji (May 8, 2011)

I dunno, I can agree with the fact that many manga today are PoS with their ridiculous tsundere bullshit. (what with the physical mayhem for even minor offenses-authors apparently having a boner for pain )

Don't see why a manga without that would be a bad thing. The rest is just Yamato Nadeshiko crap, don't know why anyone would be attracted to that.


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## Endless Mike (May 8, 2011)

Aokiji said:


> Don't see why a manga without that would be a bad thing. The rest is just Yamato Nadeshiko crap, don't know why anyone would be attracted to that.



Isn't that the kind of character that Belldandy was supposed to be? I couldn't stand her at first but when she started standing up for herself and her friends and actually kicking ass she grew on me.


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## 8 (May 8, 2011)

try a shoujo manga. many of them have females getting dominated by hot abusive bitchies.


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## Zorokiller (May 8, 2011)

Has hitman reborn been mentioned yet?

Future arc, all the girl cast does is wash the men's clothes and cook for them, they know their rightful position


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## MdB (May 8, 2011)

Reborn's entire cast consist out of female douches.


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## MdB (May 8, 2011)

Aokiji said:


> I dunno, I can agree with the fact that many manga today are PoS with their ridiculous tsundere bullshit. (what with the physical mayhem for even minor offenses-authors apparently having a boner for pain )
> 
> Don't see why a manga without that would be a bad thing. The rest is just *Yamato Nadeshiko* crap, don't know why anyone would be attracted to that.




Don't you know? Female characters with the personality of a fucking doormat are interesting.


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## Kurou (May 8, 2011)

Sick fires.


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Wait...it seems what you want *IS* a feminist manga.
> 
> I mean, wouldn't an anti-feminist manga be the ones that enforce negative stereotypes of women?
> 
> ...



Nope, I am definitely looking for an *anti-feminist* manga.

feminist= a group of female chauvanists and hypocrites.

I am looking for a manga where the males are not trashed and are not sissy, where the males have some say over important matters and don't just follow a female ruler. In short, I am looking for a manga where the males are either in command, or are treated as very important. I don't mind competent and capable females, but they have to be respectful and less arrogant.

In fact, I don't mind if the main character is a capable female, it's just that there should be no arrogance about her.

So far, *Mongoloid Gnome* have given some really good suggestions.

I like GITS, mainly because the major is sexy and because of all the cool sci-fi stuff, but that's not the kind of manga that I am currently looking for.

Claymore just doesn't appeal to me that much. Too much monster slaying and those monsters are mostly males. When I say that I look for kind female characters, I don't mean one sided kindness, but those that are kind under absolutely any circumstances, the altruistic kind.
Also, too strong characters like Teresa tend to piss me off. This applies to both genders, but gets worse if they are females. I gave up claymore after the teresa and priscilla fight. Both Teresa and Priscilla were annoying as hell. 

I do like Naruto , but I am already up to date with it. Sakura isn't that annoying, largely because she is a side character. Although, I do prefer Hinata over Sakura. 

I like Gantz too, and again, I have finished more than 90% of it. Kenshin is finished as well.

Suggest a relatively less popular manga rather than the likes of Naruto.


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> bitches should know their place when a MAN is around


I am not exactly looking for a manga where a woman gets ripped into pieces.


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## zuul (May 8, 2011)

there are plenty of shoujo that are like that.


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

zuul said:


> there are plenty of shoujo that are like that.



Shoujos don't tend to have action, thrill, suspense, adventure, intellectual comedy. But then again, I haven't read that many shoujos. So suggest some that a guy can enjoy.


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## Blinky (May 8, 2011)

How about don't read shit like My little sister can't be this cute ? Problem solved.


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## zuul (May 8, 2011)

... said:


> Shoujos don't tend to have action, thrill, suspense, adventure, intellectual comedy. But then again, I haven't read that many shoujos. So suggest some that a guy can enjoy.



Princess Tutu has some action and is really really good. But I doubt the average male would be really willing to accept all the romantic ballet porn going on in it.
The problem of shoujo is that apart from the bishie porn there are only a few that have a solid plot. 

I have remember a shounen that will fit it. Cobra. Plenty of sexy sexy chicks who doesn't trash the manly male lead in any way.



100% Ichigo said:


> The guy wants a manga that doesn't have bitches like that one from "My little sister can't be this cute' etc. etc. And you guys start flaming him. Really, are you all degenerates or something? Go watch an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond, the feminist shit is being produced ad nauseum. We are slowly being made into cuckold/submissive little ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) and already bitches are refusing to give me a blowjob and it's mandatory for me to go down on her tuna fish smelling cunt.
> 
> BUT I DIGRESS.



Having an unsufferable hypocrite immature little piece of shit of a female bullying a spineless whimp for no good reason is not something I would associate with feminism.


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

zuul said:


> Having an unsufferable immature little piece of shit of a female bullying a spineless whimp for no good reason is not something I would associate with feminism.



yes, feminism is more mature bullying!


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## Geralt of Rivia (May 8, 2011)

Blinky said:


> How about don't read shit like My little sister can't be this cute ? Problem solved.



I don't read it anymore. You kind of have to read it in the first place to know what it's about. Derp.


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## zuul (May 8, 2011)

What about Vinland Saga.

The few females are far from being annoying and most of them are sex slaves.


OP Read it. It's awesome.


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## Punpun (May 8, 2011)

Bradherley's coach would be better zuul.


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

*You guys, I am trying to clear some misunderstanding*


OK, I am not just talking about the immature noisy girls trying to boss around, I am talking about any girl with arrogance that is trying to boss around. Being more powerful only makes it worse.

For example,

In my book, Haruhi Suzumiya is better than Teresa from Claymore. Teresa wasn't evil, but there was an air of arrogance about her. Teresa simply wasn't feminine. I mean technically, Haruhi is more powerful, but still, you know what I mean. I don't like male characters like Teresa either.


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## Geralt of Rivia (May 8, 2011)

zuul said:


> What about Vinland Saga.
> 
> The few females are far from being annoying and most of them are sex slaves.
> 
> ...



Vinland Saga is more about Einar and Thorfinn.


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## zuul (May 8, 2011)

Punpun said:


> Bradherley's coach would be better zuul.



What is it about ? 



100% Ichigo said:


> Vinland Saga is more about Einar and Thorfinn.


You sound like a yaoi fangirl here. 

But you're right, if OP wants some heterosexual romance. VS is not to be recommended.


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

Punpun said:


> Bradherley's coach would be better zuul.


I am trying to read it. Still too early to comment.


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

Zorokiller said:


> Then why the whole deal with male or female, if it counts for both genders that irritate you.
> 
> or just messed up in your head and hate it when a woman has more confidence then you, I find this thread rather disturbing.



It isn't about confidence.
It's being obsessed with the attitude
-what I do is the best.
-Only my beliefs are true.
-What I say is final and everyone has to obey it.
-If I don't like it, I kill or torture everyone.

It's not confidence.

Confidence= I have an idea about how to accomplish this task/ I      should be able to do it.

Arrogance= Whatever I say/ do / believe is absolute.


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## Raven Rider (May 8, 2011)

Try "The World Only God Knows"


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## Sesha (May 8, 2011)

If only there existed a manga based on Valerie Solanas.

The OP would suffer a nervous breakdown if he read it.


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## Mizura (May 8, 2011)

You know, I actually really tried to think of a manga that fit those criteria (couldn't think of any). And I realized that I if I changed the requirement from female to male, I couldn't think of one either. x_x I mean:



> 1> bossy and ordering around, but rather treat with respect.
> 
> 2> They actually listen carefully, rather than talk non-stop. And when they talk, they show some logic and intelligence.
> 
> ...


For one thing, most action Shounen are about people beating each other up, so Nobody is particularly calm, forgiving, and understanding. And that happens to apply to the women in said Shounen, because if they're tagging along, it means they're facing combat and enemies, so they've really got little time being quiet and kind and forgiving and understanding either (they just well... act normal, you don't have housewives on the battlefield). Most characters in Shounen aren't saying anything logical and intelligent either, instead more closer to "We'll fight to the end because [whatever] is important!" or "You piece of sh*****t!!!"

That leaves the romance shounen, and being a girl, I read girl romance, not male romance... If you're looking for a girl fitting those criteria, Belldandy from Ah! My Goddess! fits those best, she's really kind and gentle towards Keiichi, she's quiet but she's also intelligent and mature. There's some action later on in the series as well, and the art really improves after a few volumes.

Aya of Tenjou Tenge and Moka from Rosario Vampire are pretty dedicated to the male character, though they really don't qualify for the "quiet" department, and most screen time is taken by the not so gentle girls...


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## Samavarti (May 8, 2011)

Pick some random Harem, and problem solved.

Also Katekyo Hitman Reborn has some of the more submissive female character that i have seen latly, they only function is stay in the Kitchen and cook fot the males when they return from their battles.


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

Mizura said:


> You know, I actually really tried to think of a manga that fit those criteria (couldn't think of any). And I realized that I if I changed the requirement from female to male, I couldn't think of one either. x_x I mean:
> 
> 
> For one thing, most action Shounen are about people beating each other up, so Nobody is particularly calm, forgiving, and understanding. And that happens to apply to the women in said Shounen, because if they're tagging along, it means they're facing combat and enemies, so they've really got little time being quiet and kind and forgiving and understanding either (they just well... act normal, you don't have housewives on the battlefield). Most characters in Shounen aren't saying anything logical and intelligent either, instead more closer to "We'll fight to the end because [whatever] is important!" or "You piece of sh*****t!!!"
> ...



You do have a valid point.

I was not actually looking for a typical manga, definitely not a typical shounen(seinen was probably more of what I had in mind).

I have kind of accepted that that's how most typical mangas are: with I am gonna beat the enemy no matter what.

I am only talking about more toned down mangas or mangas with a difference. There are mangas that I did not find that annoying. Perhaps the last manga which I read and which fits my criteria was LOST + BRAIN.


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## Scarecrow Red (May 8, 2011)

... said:


> It isn't about confidence.
> It's being obsessed with the attitude
> -what I do is the best.
> -Only my beliefs are true.
> ...



Isn't like Haruhi Suzumiya the complete embodiment of all those descriptions, and you say she is better than the protagonist of Claymore? What the hell.


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## Punpun (May 8, 2011)

Lost+Brain was a piece of shit.


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## Mizura (May 8, 2011)

Seinen eh... I'm not too familiar with Seinen with major female characters in it though.

How about Shin Angyo Onshi, come to think of it? Sando pretty much obeys Munsu and barely talks at all.

Oh hey, how about Tsubasa: Reservoir Chronicle and Chobits from Clamp? Sakura and Chi are both very gentle characters.

Maybe Eden no Ori. I seem to recall that overall, the females are pretty obedient towards the main character.


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## Scarecrow Red (May 8, 2011)

... said:


> Nope, I am definitely looking for an *anti-feminist* manga.
> 
> feminist= a group of female chauvanists and hypocrites.



Feminism doesn't define like that :I

I think the term you're trying to pull off is "feminist extremist", or whatever that shit supposed to mean. 



> I am looking for a manga where the males are not trashed and are not sissy, where the males have some say over important matters and don't just follow a female ruler. In short, I am looking for a manga where the males are either in command, or are treated as very important. I don't mind competent and capable females, but they have to be respectful and less arrogant.



So you are basically looking for manga where the female character is completely submissive to the male counterpart.

...Yeah, just look for series where the females are complete Yamato Nadeshiko.


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## αshɘs (May 8, 2011)

Brute Love/The Love of the Brute 


/thumbs up


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

Scarecrow Red said:


> Isn't like Haruhi Suzumiya the complete embodiment of all those descriptions, and you say she is better than the protagonist of Claymore? What the hell.



Actually yes, Suzumiya was one of the (many) reasons why I started this thread. Suzumiya, at times, is quite annoying, although she is also funny at times. And to be honest, I have been a bit harsh to Teresa. I read Claymore a long time back. My memory isn't  serving me very well, but there were one or two particular incidents about Teresa, that I didn't like - that I felt were a bit arrogant and cruel. And the fact that she was almost invincible from the start, made it more annoying. She wasn't evil, though. 

Suzumiya, however, did not kill anyone. At times, I felt that Teresa was cruel, scary even. Suzumiya may be annoying as hell, but I never felt that she was cruel.

I was trying to explain the idea that I don't like arrogance in women, and even mature women can be arrogant.


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## dream (May 8, 2011)

> I am looking for a manga where the males are not trashed and are not sissy, where the males have some say over important matters and don't just follow a female ruler. In short, I am looking for a manga where the males are either in command, or are treated as very important.



Souten no Ken.


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## Scarecrow Red (May 8, 2011)

... said:


> Actually yes, Suzumiya was one of the (many) reasons why I started this thread. Suzumiya, at times, is quite annoying, although she is also funny at times.



The thing is not all characters that are women and strong-willed aren't annoying and prickish like Haruhi. For instance, Alita from BAA, Nikaido from Dorohedoro and Nausicaa from Nausicaa from the Valley of Wind are decent strong-willed protagonists and don't act like an annoying self-centered retarded as Haruhi.



> And the fact that she was almost invincible from the start, made it more annoying. She wasn't evil, though.



Well, uh, a bunch of characters can be very annoying if they are too invincible, just not females you know.



> Suzumiya, however, did not kill anyone. At times, I felt that Teresa was cruel, scary even. Suzumiya may be annoying as hell, but I never felt that she was cruel.



I don't get it. Are you trying to say that cruel female characters scary you? What about cruel male characters? I mean, there are a bunch of male villains in Manga that fall in that category.



> I was trying to explain the idea that I don't like arrogance in women, and even mature women can be arrogant.



Let me ask something: do you dislike arrogance in men as well?


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> So what you're looking for is...subservience?


Not quite, but that will do.
Do you know any legendary subservient beauty?



> Feminist means equal rights/treatment of men and women, not solely women empowerment and leaving men in the dust. Anti-feminist means anti-equal treatment/rights. You're coming off incredibly sexist.


No, feminist mean old women who try to benefit few selected women like themselves by trying to control the entire male race by crying and playing victim and demonizing males. It was never about equality. That's hypocrisy. They want preferential treatment by exploiting the males.



Scarecrow Red said:


> Feminism doesn't define like that :I
> 
> So you are basically looking for manga where the female character is completely submissive to the male counterpart.
> 
> ...Yeah, just look for series where the females are complete Yamato Nadeshiko.



Nope, I already said some manga names, didn't I.

Did Umino Miyuki from HAPPY! look submissive to you?
I don't mind submissiveness, but that is not what I am looking for. I merely want a kind and respectful woman. If she is powerful, then she is that much sexier.

For example, I found many of the bleach ladies to be quite good, including Yoruichi Sama. I don't mind her bossing Ichigo because she is that much above him.


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## zuul (May 8, 2011)

Attacking OP on his preference is not very nice.

However I don't share his views on feminism (though I prefer using the equalitarian term).


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## Seto Kaiba (May 8, 2011)

100% Ichigo said:


> The guy wants a manga that doesn't have bitches like that one from "My little sister can't be this cute' etc. etc. And you guys start flaming him. Really, are you all degenerates or something? Go watch an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond, the feminist shit is being produced ad nauseum. We are slowly being made into cuckold/submissive little ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) and already bitches are refusing to give me a blowjob and it's mandatory for me to go down on her tuna fish smelling cunt.
> 
> BUT I DIGRESS.



That's not feminism, that's misandry.


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## Mist Puppet (May 8, 2011)

Take your pick.


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

Scarecrow Red said:


> Let me ask something: do you dislike arrogance in men as well?



I do, but usually to a lesser extent. How much I dislike arrogance in someone depends on a lot of factors unrelated to sex. But I do dislike it.



zuul said:


> (though I prefer using the equalitarian term).


Exactly, if they wanted equality, they should termed it as equalism.They will never care if men are treated unfairly. 

And how exactly were women oppressed? Women not allowed to vote? Give me a break. They never cared about voting to begin with.

 In the early days, only the higher class families could vote. Once voting was allowed for all classes, women soon gained the right to vote within 10 years.



LegendaryBeauty said:


> Your whole thread revolved around sexism, looking for subservient women, and now you claim you don't care if they're bossy only if they're legitimately ranked above the man.
> 
> What the fuck kind of thinking is that?


You, basically, didn't understand a thing I said.
A woman can potentially get far more respect than a man from me. But it's people like you and the scary woman like in your avatar that makes me want to hate women. But I still find it difficult to hate women. I do hate feminism, however.


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## Samavarti (May 8, 2011)

... said:


> Claymore just doesn't appeal to me that much. Too much monster slaying and those monsters are mostly males. When I say that I look for kind female characters, I don't mean one sided kindness, but those that are kind under absolutely any circumstances, the altruistic kind.
> Also, too strong characters like Teresa tend to piss me off. This applies to both genders, but gets worse if they are females. I gave up claymore after the teresa and priscilla fight. Both Teresa and Priscilla were annoying as hell.



So if the claymores were male and the monster Female or the feamle were jut victim of the monsters it would fit your tastes right?


----------



## ichigeau (May 8, 2011)

... said:


> but those that are kind under absolutely any circumstances



if it was like this, would this fit your tastes ? 


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Aokiji (May 8, 2011)

Mizura said:


> You know, I actually really tried to think of a manga that fit those criteria (couldn't think of any). And I realized that I if I changed the requirement from female to male, I couldn't think of one either. x_x I mean:
> 
> 
> For one thing, most action Shounen are about people beating each other up, so Nobody is particularly calm, forgiving, and understanding. most screen time is taken by the not so gentle girls...



Except that the ridiculously strong guys face dmoestic violence by their female friends. Nobody is talking about actual fights with enemies.


----------



## ... (May 8, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> So if the claymores were male and the monster Female or the feamle were jut victim of the monsters it would fit your tastes right?


No, it wouldn't.
Why does everyone take my words and spin it to mean something entirely different.

Claymore was written by a male, if I am correct? Males find it extremely difficult make monsters out of females. The reason is because they don't want to kill females. Yet, I have seem so many women that actually enjoy the slaying of males, monsters or not.



Seto Kaiba said:


> No those are misandrists.
> 
> Women in authoritative positions scare you?
> 
> You basically want a woman that shuts her mouth and leaves things to the man.


feminists are misandrists.

I don't like anyone having authority. But apart from hentai, I have never found a man to be ordering a woman the way the opposite happens.

Nope, I want a woman to be equal, not the boss. I want her to give as much respect to him as he does to her.



> WTF? But the major legitimately earned her position, treats her subordinates, most of whom are male, with respect. She isn't arrogant and the guys she works with aren't emasculated. I think that DOES fit your criteria.


I have already said that I like GITS and the major. But I am looking for something different. I decide whether it fits my criteria. Your only intention seems to be to attack me.


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## Akatora (May 8, 2011)

If you ever want to try one with hardly any female

then I'd suggest Ginga Nagareboshi gin

There's only 1 female of importance compared to 30+ male


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## Samavarti (May 8, 2011)

I think "He is my Master" fits your tastes perfectly.


			
				Description said:
			
		

> Yoshitaka Nakabayashi, a 14-year-old millionaire who got this huge inheritance after his parents died in an accident, found himself needed to be taken care of and tried to hire live-in maids to do the job.
> 
> Two runaway girls, Izumi Sawatari and her younger sister Mitsuki, stumbled into Nakabayashi's mansion and got hired by Yoshitaka immediately, for Yoshitaka is not only a rich boy but also a pervert with uniform fetishes, who wants to be addressed as goshujin-sama (master). Having nowhere else to settle down along with Mitsuki's pet alligator Pochi, Izumi accepted the job reluctantly.


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

Akatora said:


> If you ever want to try one with hardly any female
> 
> then I'd suggest Ginga Nagareboshi gin
> 
> There's only 1 female of importance compared to 30+ male



I would actually prefer 1 male of importance and 30+ females of slightly less importance.


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## Punpun (May 8, 2011)

Did you like Bradherley's coach ? If it fitted your criteria you should read Highschool girl in concrete.. :33

Going by the synopsis it should please you.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 8, 2011)

... said:


> I would actually prefer 1 male of importance and 30+ females of slightly less importance.



ω-Male Resentment Hour.


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## Hiroshi (May 8, 2011)

. . . what did this thread turn into?

Locking. Sorry OP, I hope you got some answers.


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## Hiroshi (May 8, 2011)

Re-opening. Suggest manga and don't go into off-topic discussions.


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## Punpun (May 8, 2011)

I recommend you Stop the Bitch campaign too. :33


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

Punpun said:


> Did you like Bradherley's coach ? If it fitted your criteria you should read Highschool girl in concrete.. :33
> 
> Going by the synopsis it should please you.



I will try it. I have a bad feeling that you are trying to trick me with some sadistic manga. How many chapters are there? I see 9 chapters in mangaeden. Is that all?


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## Punpun (May 8, 2011)

No idea. I didn't read this one.


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

Punpun said:


> No idea. I didn't read this one.


Awesome!

Is that Elizabeth from Gintama in your avatar?

Come to think of it, Gintama satisfies my criteria.
I am not currently in the mood for too much violence. Rather, I prefer a comedy show like Gintama. 

*So, is there a laugh-out-loud antifeminist manga?*


----------



## Punpun (May 8, 2011)

No it's punpun. From Oyasumi punpun.


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

Punpun said:


> No it's punpun. From Oyasumi punpun.


Never heard of this manga.
Is it a comedy?
Do you think that punpun will satisfy my criteria?


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## Punpun (May 8, 2011)

It's as light hearted as Highschool girl in concrete. 

Though it won't fit your criteria.

But wait are you seriously reading a guro manga on the romanced story of the death of Furuta ? And best, or worst, of it is that it fit your criteria ?


----------



## ... (May 8, 2011)

Punpun said:


> It's as light hearted as Highschool girl in concrete.
> 
> Though it won't fit your criteria.


Why? Can you explain.
Somehow, it looks tasty as I am checking it out.


----------



## blueblip (May 8, 2011)

OP, just pick up Battle Angel Alita. As it stands, Alita is one of the best written women in the manga I've read. Competent, intelligent, powerful, but is also emotive and empathetic. She only respects people for their actions, irregardless of gender.

In fact, she's a lot like Major Kusanagi from GITS.

EDIT: Oyasumi Punpun is most certainly not the type of manga you're looking for. Trust me on this.


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## ... (May 8, 2011)

Hey, Punpun, I am having a lot of trouble understanding this manga. Why is this penguin in a school of humans? Anyway, may be things will become clearer as I read more. So I am continuing.

Also-The genre of Oyasumi Punpun says comedy.Is Highscool girl in concrete also comedy?




> OP, just pick up Battle Angel Alita. As it stands, Alita is one of the best written women in the manga I've read. Competent, intelligent, powerful, but is also emotive and empathetic. She only respects people for their actions, irregardless of gender.


OK, I am putting it in my to-read list. Or is there an anime version that I should watch?


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## Endless Mike (May 8, 2011)

blueblip said:


> OP, just pick up Battle Angel Alita. As it stands, Alita is one of the best written women in the manga I've read. Competent, intelligent, powerful, but is also emotive and empathetic. She only respects people for their actions, irregardless of gender.



He would probably say that she's "arrogant" 

Really, there's nothing wrong with being arrogant if you can back it up.


----------



## armorknight (May 8, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> He would probably say that she's "arrogant"
> 
> Really, there's nothing wrong with being arrogant if you can back it up.



Well, there are a lot of arrogant male and female characters who can't back it up, although percentage-wise this affliction is definitely more common with female characters (i.e. any tsundere for example).

I think that the OP would like Rosario+Vampire, Negima, and Chrome Shelled Regios.


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## Endless Mike (May 8, 2011)

I doubt it, he would think the likes of Eva, Asuna, hell practically most of the female cast were too "arrogant"


----------



## Mizura (May 8, 2011)

Aokiji said:


> Except that the ridiculously strong guys face dmoestic violence by their female friends. Nobody is talking about actual fights with enemies.


For one, you're exaggerating about the guys undergoing domestic violence by their female friends. Even if you take mainstream manga such as One Piece and Bleach, when was the last time the male protagonist got beaten up by the female characters?

For another, I was talking about the rather large sub-group of action Shounen, and in that group, if the female isn't fighting, then she's basically not doing anything at all i.e. better off not showing up at all (there are several manga which in this way, simply avoids female protagonists, such as HxH and Toriko). And if she's fighting, it takes a certain sort of personality to fight, and it usually isn't the kind, forgiving and understanding type, unless you count the preaching nun type, which are arguably even scarier.



> I think that the OP would like Rosario+Vampire


I was thinking about Rosario+Vampire too, but the alternate personality does boss the main character around. Hn.

So now it's about comedy? Urk, let's see... (I mean, comedic Shounen tend to have especially violent females, since it's they consider it's for the lulz). I guess Ah! My Goddess is comedic?


----------



## Blinky (May 8, 2011)

Oyasumi Punpun a comedy ? The fuck ?


----------



## armorknight (May 8, 2011)

Mizura said:


> For one, you're exaggerating about the guys undergoing domestic violence by their female friends. Even if you take mainstream manga such as One Piece and Bleach, when was the last time the male protagonist got beaten up by the female characters?
> 
> For another, I was talking about the rather large sub-group of action Shounen, and in that group, if the female isn't fighting, then she's basically not doing anything at all i.e. better off not showing up at all (there are several manga which in this way, simply avoids female protagonists, such as HxH and Toriko). And if she's fighting, it takes a certain sort of personality to fight, and it usually isn't the kind, forgiving and understanding type, unless you count the preaching nun type, which are arguably even scarier.
> 
> ...



Actually, male leads getting "beaten" and cowed into submission by weaker female characters is a very common gag in action shounen. It's generally annoying and irritating.

Goku is a henpecked husband. One Piece had Nami hitting Luffy on the head and leaving a huge bump. Naruto had pretty much the same thing with Sakura. Bleach never made use of this gag from what I remember, which is one of the few good things about Bleach.

Inner Moka definitely isn't bossy. She's more of a stern ice queen, although her sternness has almost completely melted away at this point.

I usually stay the fuck away from any shounen that focuses primarily on comedy and/or romance since these series are usually littered with the most irritating and bitchy girls. I especially avoid harems and other romantic comedies like the plague. Negima and R+V are exceptions since they're well-written and have a good plot with good female characters. 




Endless Mike said:


> I doubt it, he would think the likes of Eva, Asuna, hell practically most of the female cast were too "arrogant"



Eva has the combination of being extremely arrogant and extremely badass at the same time, which is always good.


----------



## hehey (May 8, 2011)

So what? so the Japanese think female characters hitting their male love interests is funny, its probably just a Japanese thing and theres nothing we can do about it.

....let it go


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## Seto Kaiba (May 8, 2011)

It honestly doesn't bother me at all. It's not like it's enough that it comprises the male's character most of the time and it's not out of malicious intent. It's just a gag, nothing more.


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## Castiel (May 8, 2011)

It really is amazing this is still open


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 8, 2011)

Kilogram said:


> It really is amazing this is still open



it is isn't it


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## Mizura (May 8, 2011)

> Actually, male leads getting "beaten" and cowed into submission by weaker female characters is a very common gag in action shounen. It's generally annoying and irritating.


Sure it's common, I know that, but it's also entirely avoidable. You can find very mainstream manga where this doesn't occur, such as Bleach, Toriko and HxH. I don't recall the girls in Hikaru no Go and Slam Dunk doing anything abusive? Granted, most of those manga barely have females at all, but basically it isn't hard to find mainstream manga with no abusive females (even if it means no females at all). In One Piece, I don't think any female has hit Luffy in quite a long while.

Finding a manga where the male lead doesn't get beaten up by a female isn't hard at all. What's hard to find is the "quiet, understanding, [blablabla]" female that the OP is asking for, especially in a comedic setting, as comedic manga are either:
- harem manga, where 1 girl will be quiet etc., but at least one prominent other one will be the abusive type for variety's sake
- action manga, where girls tend to have a tougher personality

Now, in more serious manga, I can actually think of plenty of women who are smart and mature And quiet and understanding (Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind, Claymore, Battle Angel Alita, from what I've heard of it), but they're usually the main characters, so there's no male around that they're busy making feel important, so it's not the type the OP is asking for either.



> It really is amazing this is still open


I'm just kind of puzzled that I can't think of many manga fitting the OP's exact description. The type he asks about is usually found in harem manga, surrounded by the loud bossy types. Or, they tend to be marginal, like Sylphiel in Slayers who's vastly overshadowed by the main protagonist Lina. Even when the girls do worship one of the guys, they tend to be loud squealy fangirls (Sakura towards Sasuke in Naruto, at first at least).

Edit: Oh hey, wait a moment, I forgot entirely about *Magico* which started recently. It's an action/comedy, and the girl is really nice towards the guy. There you go! 

Sweet, grateful, wants to be the ideal wife-y, believes in the guy no matter what, determined, etc., etc., And she's the main female character.


----------



## Luckyday (May 8, 2011)

... said:


> No, it wouldn't.
> Why does everyone take my words and spin it to mean something entirely different.
> 
> Claymore was written by a male, if I am correct? Males find it extremely difficult make monsters out of females. The reason is because they don't want to kill females. Yet, I have seem so many women that actually enjoy the slaying of males, monsters or not.
> ...



So you want a partnership?


----------



## armorknight (May 8, 2011)

Ai Yori Aoshi is another good manga that the OP would probably like.


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## Luckyday (May 9, 2011)

... said:


> Well, lately I am getting a little a little annoyed by the mangas/animes that I have read recently. Nearly all of them have some typical bossy girls/women and many of them are kind of selfish, because they are simply incapable of making any sacrifices for others. Of course, everyone have their preferences and I am not against these kind of mangas because I support free speech, but I do need a change of mood, a breath of fresh air. So, I want you guys recommend me some mangas where the females treat the males with some respect.
> 
> Note: When I say anti-feminist, I don't mean weak or inferior capability women; rather, I mean the following:
> 
> ...



As a girl, I am with you on everything except the last criteria. I mean don't get me wrong, I like female characters that try to be understanding but I hate if the said character would be able to forgive about everything (maybe forgive the small things but not for big things like left for dead,betrayed, or rape) that would piss me unless that suppose a big part of her character like being goddess of forgiveness or a queen welcoming back tragic hero or some shit IDK.
The point is that if character is very forgiving, she would need to be written well.


----------



## Mizura (May 9, 2011)

There was also this harem manga, where the guy goes to live on this island. The three girls literally worship the guy as God and their goal in life is literally to get into his pants (some island legend/tradition). Even the initially rude one becomes a submissive wife-y type.

I can't remember the name though, damnit.


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## armorknight (May 9, 2011)

Mizura said:


> There was also this harem manga, where the guy goes to live on this island. The three girls literally worship the guy as God and their goal in life is literally to get into his pants (some island legend/tradition). Even the initially rude one becomes a submissive wife-y type.
> 
> I can't remember the name though, damnit.



I think you're talking about Umi No Misaki. That's another one of the few good harems, although that's less surprising considering it's seinen.

The girls in the manga act under the pretense of submission at first to gain the main characters "favor." But the relationship evolves into a mutual respect and love thing soon enough, although the guy is still viewed as a sort of deity.

The male lead of Umi No Misaki is pretty bland though.


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## Mider T (May 9, 2011)

I don't really understand this thread.  The OP found what he was looking for, and was shown that hard-hitting females don't encompass all manga or even all genres that he's interested in.  As for the rest of you age old proverb, don't like it don't read it.


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## Luckyday (May 9, 2011)

^ Maybe it's just that the topic is just so confounding and interesting.


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## Nuzzie (May 9, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]UhXPqKzzkqQ[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Mook Mook the Bushman (May 9, 2011)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> it is isn't it


not really maybe if this was some other forum or something but really this isn't even anywhere near the most offensive thread on the forums right now. Probably around par for the course


----------



## p-lou (May 9, 2011)

sorry we can't stay up to date with the junk in the cafe sitch-san ):


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## p-lou (May 9, 2011)

Nuzzie said:


> [YOUTUBE]UhXPqKzzkqQ[/YOUTUBE]



bitch needs to learn how to listen


----------



## Mook Mook the Bushman (May 9, 2011)

p-lou said:


> sorry we can't stay up to date with the junk in the cafe sitch-san ):


such a backwards forum


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## Tion (May 9, 2011)

@OP Tsundere =/= Feminism. I'm sorry try again. If you're looking for a good without the tsundere try Claymore, Ruroni Kenshin or Inuyasha.

*Spoiler*: _offtopic_ 






... said:


> feminists are misandrists.


No they're not. A marginal proportion of radical feminists are misandrists

You speak how you believe in equality between a man and woman. That is the definition of feminism. You are technically a feminist. Most people are, it's just that the colloquial term for Femisnism has been misshaped and branded with: 'man-hating'



... said:


> And how exactly were women oppressed?



Before the feminist movements, womens oppression came from the social stigma that women couldn't do anything without the permission of a man, varying depending on area, of course. It was perceived that men were better, smarter and more capable while women were 'lesser'. Her preconceived role was 'baby making'. And you can't say women oppression still doesn't happen, just look at some extreme regions of the middleeast/south africa. 



> Women not allowed to vote? Give me a break. They never cared about voting to begin with..


They never cared to the extent that they created a whole movement around it. Yeah. Great logic there.


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## zuul (May 9, 2011)

Tion said:


> @OP Tsundere =/= Feminism. I'm sorry try again. If you're looking for a good without the tsundere try Claymore, Ruroni Kenshin or Inuyasha.



WTF !!

Kaoru from Kenshin (the main girl) is a straight Tsundere.

Her treatment of Kenshin is one of the most disgusting example of undeserved immature beating, since Kenshin is always very nice, helpful and gentlemanly (Kenshin the ideal man. )


----------



## Mizura (May 9, 2011)

armorknight said:


> I think you're talking about Umi No Misaki.
> 
> The male lead of Umi No Misaki is pretty bland though.


That's the one! The one with the incredibly bland guy. The girls are rather wasted on him.


----------



## ... (May 9, 2011)

I am liking Oyasumi Punpun.  I am in 16th chapter now. I can sort of understand why some of you of you suggested against it. It is't exactly what I was asking for, but it's kind of interesting. God of poop is quite awesome.

However, I was a bit surprised to see punpun masturbate. I am sure sexual attraction exists even before puberty, but is it medically possible to masturbate at that age? I am not sure. Punpun doesn't look very old to have reached puberty. He is probably of single digit age.

But more importantly, why is a family of penguins living like humans? I still can't figure out.



armorknight said:


> Ai Yori Aoshi is another good manga that the OP would probably like.



OK, Added to my read list.



Mizura said:


> Sure it's common, I know that, but it's also entirely avoidable. You can find very mainstream manga where this doesn't occur, such as Bleach, Toriko and HxH. I don't recall the girls in Hikaru no Go and Slam Dunk doing anything abusive? Granted, most of those manga barely have females at all, but basically it isn't hard to find mainstream manga with no abusive females (even if it means no females at all).
> 
> *Magico* which started recently. It's an action/comedy, and the girl is really nice towards the guy. There you go!
> 
> Sweet, grateful, wants to be the ideal wife-y, believes in the guy no matter what, determined, etc., etc., And she's the main female character.



I have read bleach and Slam Dunk, they are OK with me.
I have added magico to my list, but it sounds a bit supernatural - I normally don't like black magic and witchcraft and souls and stuff like that.



Luckyday said:


> So you want a partnership?


Not a bad idea. Can you suggest some manga with partnership? But the female should not be the dominant partner.



Luckyday said:


> As a girl, I am with you on everything except the last criteria. I mean don't get me wrong, I like female characters that try to be understanding but I hate if the said character would be able to forgive about everything (maybe forgive the small things but not for big things like left for dead,betrayed, or rape) that would piss me unless that suppose a big part of her character like being goddess of forgiveness or a queen welcoming back tragic hero or some shit IDK.
> The point is that if character is very forgiving, she would need to be written well.


_Actually kindness and forgiveness in a girl is *much more important* to me than lack of arrogance. I can deal with a  bit of arrogance, but if she is very vindictive and violent -then it shows to me too much self importance and selfishness and also, the capability for  strong hatred. To be precise, I am looking for a strong/able girl who lives an altruistic existance, and who is  incapable of hatred and selfishness._


Tion said:


> @OP If you're looking for a good without the tsundere try Claymore, Ruroni Kenshin or Inuyasha.
> 
> *Spoiler*: _offtopic_
> 
> ...


Actually, you are not very close.
Rurouni Kenshin I like; Inuyasha and Claymore, not so much. I dislike Kagome; I like Kikyo, though. Grown up Clare is more or less OK, little Clare is a bit annoying. I dislike Teresa and Priscilla. I gave up watching it after their fight.

@ Tion Off Topic

*Spoiler*: __ 




Going off-topic is not allowed. So this is probably the last time I reply to you on this matter.


> Tsundere =/= Feminism.


Actually, Feminist = Politically powerful Tsundere.
A very marginal portion of feminists are not misandrists. And if they chose to call themselves feminists, then they have been brainwashed enough by feminists anyway.



> That is the definition of feminism.


No, that is the hypocrisy of feminism. They don't care the slightest - one little tiny single bit about males. For example, if women get any previlleges over men, they will immidiately close their eyes, even tell men to shut up.



> Before the feminist movements, womens oppression came from the social stigma that women couldn't do anything without the permission of a man, varying depending on area, of course. It was perceived that men were better, smarter and more capable while women were 'lesser'. Her preconceived role was 'baby making'. And you can't say women oppression still doesn't happen, just look at some extreme regions of the middleeast/south africa.


I have read books from centuries back. Books are like photos of past societies, no? Never for a second did it feel like men disrespected women.When kings ruled the land, queens usually ruled the kings. If anything, feminism has created the gender war. Earlier, women were treated like a superior and delicate being. Now, they are often seen as selfish bitches. If some men wanted for women to stay at home, it was only because he wanted his child to grow to up well, not because he thought women were inferior. Work isn't fun for 99% of males, it's a responsibility. For feminists, however, work has to be made fun for women.

On the other hand, men are constantly demonized and oppressed. For example, I often read news about how male nurses don't get the same rights that female nurses get, how male medical students are dropping out from subjects like gynaecology because of the the insults they face. Yet, this subject was invented and advanced mostly by men.
The whole of western education system has been changed to suit the needs of girls, often at the cost of boys. It's practically impossible to find a male primary teacher.



> They never cared to the extent that they created a whole movement around it. Yeah. Great logic there.


Indeed, they never cared. Most interviews from women of that time prove that. Only feminists brainwashed some women to believe that they were oppressed. 
And they were oppressed so much that all their demands were met within a month. What a real oppression!If men wanted to oppress women, feminism would have never ever succeeded. 
The truth is, all their demands could have been made in a much less dramatic and attacking fashion, and most of them would still be met.

I suggest you read Esther Villar's "the manipulated man" (free online available). She was a female doctor and expresses how she felt ashamed by the feminist movements of the time(early 70s). Of course, she goes a bit extreme, and I don't agree with everything she says, but you can see why she disliked those feminist movements- she could see nothing but immature  selfishness in them.








zuul said:


> WTF !!
> 
> Kaoru from Kenshin (the main girl) is a straight Tsundere.
> 
> Her treatment of Kenshin is one of the most disgusting example of undeserved immature beating, since Kenshin is always very nice, helpful and gentlemanly (Kenshin the ideal man. )


Actually, I don't mind kaoru from kenshin. Sure, she isn't the ideal woman, but the story revolves around Kenshin, not Kaoru. And it is Kenshin who submits to Kaoru, rather than kaoru forcing. Kenshin is too strong for Kaoru to harm him. I don't remember her being very violent or forceful to Kenshin either.

On the other hand, I dislike Inuyasha because I prefer Kikyo over Kagome. The story revolves around Kagome, even more than Inuyasha. And Kikyo was increasingly turned into a side character or a sacrificial pawn. Only that could make Kagome fans happy. With such a treatment of Kikyo, Inuyasha was hardly the show that I would like.

I have already mentioned why I dislike Claymore.


----------



## Mizura (May 9, 2011)

^ You think Bleach and Gintama are okay but you don't actually like supernatural?

Okay, I think I'll give up now. @_@ I don't read that many Shounen/Seinen with no supernatural elements. It's a pity though, even I'm impressed by the female protagonist's gracious nature towards the guy.

Anyway, if Ai Yori Aoshi fits your criteria, put Umi no Misaki on your list too. Sure, the male protagonist is bland as hell, but so is the one in Ai Yori Aoshi, if I recall from the bit I read like... 10 years ago.


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## ... (May 9, 2011)

Mizura said:


> ^ You think Bleach and Gintama are okay but you don't actually like supernatural?
> 
> Okay, I think I'll give up now. @_@ I don't read that many Shounen with no supernatural elements. Anyway, if Ai Yori Aoshi fits your criteria, put Umi no Misaki on your list too. Sure, the male protagonist is bland as hell, but so is the one in Ai Yori Aoshi, if I recall from the bit I read like... 10 years ago.



OK, let me explain.

Take Naruto for example. It is obviously supernatural, but they developed it quite systematically on the basis of a chakra system and all. So a systemic supernatural is better with me than random chanting of spells and what not. Plus, naruto has a very  interesting plot and story (although it's going downhill lately)


Bleach,well, I like it mainly for the action and the plot, mainly. It does have concepts like soul and what not, but a lot of other things balance it out.

Gintama is supernatural mainly because of the aliens. But aliens are actually a concept of sci-fi. Plus, I like Gintama mainly because of the light-hearted mood in it.

With magic or witchcraft, it's mainly chanting of spells, no explanation of powers and stuff like that.

Was I able to explain myself?


----------



## Mizura (May 9, 2011)

Ah, you like stuff with explanations. Sometimes though, explanations only come later progressively in the series (a lot of concepts in Naruto were only explained later on), but I get your point. 

That said, I would never qualify Gintama as sci-fi. The aliens are just an excuse, as far as I'm concerned. Real sci-fi tries to use real science, or at least pretends to.


----------



## ... (May 9, 2011)

Mizura said:


> Ah, you like stuff with explanations. Sometimes though, explanations only come later progressively in the series (a lot of concepts in Naruto were only explained later on), but I get your point.


Yes, you got it. Naruto didn't explain everything, but right from the beginning, it tried to come up with some systematic explanations.




> That said, I would never qualify Gintama as sci-fi. The aliens are just an excuse, as far as I'm concerned. Real sci-fi tries to use real science, or at least pretends to.


Aliens may be just an excuse, but I think it's a good excuse for a show that's built around comedy.


----------



## Tayimus (May 9, 2011)

Has anyone mentioned Psyren? The OP might be interested in it. The main female character, Amamiya Sakurako, is strong and has a nice personality. She does hit the male lead character, Yoshina Ageha, but only when he's teasing her. In all, the relationship they had was very healthy and not like most shonens I've read.


----------



## Bilaal (May 9, 2011)

it's ok op i understand you, that's why i recommend _Mai-chan's Daily Life_. it's exactly the kind of manga you've been asking for, made especially for people with your tastes.


----------



## Drakor (May 9, 2011)

Bilaal said:


> it's ok op i understand you, that's why i recommend _Mai-chan's Daily Life_. it's exactly the kind of manga you've been asking for, made especially for people with your tastes.





You're so cruel, he didn't mean it as in going *THAT* far but more like Claymore's use of strong women who don't bullshit or act tsundere.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (May 9, 2011)

> more like Claymore's use of strong women who don't bullshit or act tsundere.



He stated that he has issues with Claymore too...


----------



## Drakor (May 9, 2011)

Ah, well I guess I missed that part. Maybe he'd like Mirai Nikki or something...


----------



## MrCinos (May 9, 2011)




----------



## ... (May 9, 2011)

Tayimus said:


> Has anyone mentioned Psyren? The OP might be interested in it. The main female character, Amamiya Sakurako, is strong and has a nice personality. She does hit the male lead character, Yoshina Ageha, but only when he's teasing her. In all, the relationship they had was very healthy and not like most shonens I've read.



Ah, I was actually reading Psyren quite some time back. But for some reason, I forgot to finish it. I guess I will have to restart it. It was interesting, and I don't remember disliking it . May be I should just start again.




Drakor said:


> Ah, well I guess I missed that part. Maybe he'd like Mirai Nikki or something...


What is it about? Sci-fi? Sexy?

I don't like that sort of stuff.


----------



## hehey (May 9, 2011)

what manga is this anyway, art seems familiar but cant remember exactly.


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## MrCinos (May 9, 2011)

hehey said:


> what manga is this anyway, art seems familiar but cant remember exactly.



That's from one sick hentai series (Zettai Ryoujoku) by Psycho (a fitting pseudonym for that mangaka).


----------



## ichigeau (May 9, 2011)

Mizura said:


> ^ You think Bleach and Gintama are okay but you don't actually like supernatural?
> 
> Okay, I think I'll give up now. @_@ I don't read that many Shounen/Seinen with no supernatural elements. It's a pity though,




well its not because there is no supernatural that its less exiting or whatever (even if im a big fan of supernatural and all kind of crazy shit (otherwise why would i've started watching anime in the first place ?))
vinland saga for example


----------



## Luckyday (May 9, 2011)

... said:


> I am liking Oyasumi Punpun.  I am in 16th chapter now. I can sort of understand why some of you of you suggested against it. It is't exactly what I was asking for, but it's kind of interesting. God of poop is quite awesome.
> 
> However, I was a bit surprised to see punpun masturbate. I am sure sexual attraction exists even before puberty, but is it medically possible to masturbate at that age? I am not sure. Punpun doesn't look very old to have reached puberty. He is probably of single digit age.
> 
> ...



But To have Hates, likes, loves, and dislike are essential parts of a character.


----------



## Aldric (May 10, 2011)

This guy sounds like Chris chan listing the prerequisites to become his girlfriend

NO DARKIES

NO BOYFRIENDLESS LADY CAPABLE OF HATRED AND SELFISHNESS


----------



## ... (May 10, 2011)

Luckyday said:


> But To have Hates, likes, loves, and dislike are essential parts of a character.



Yes, I guess. And I don't want a completely emotionless character, either.

But hatred should not overwhelm rationality.I am finding it difficult to explain. I believe someone who is more capable of unselfish love is less capable hatred. Otherwise, it's a kind of selfish possesiveness, not real love.

It's OK if someone kills out of fear and lack of strength. But it's not OK if someone does something cruel out of a grudge or hatred or to show off power. Revenge is OK if someone does it for someone else's sake, but it's not OK if the revenge is purely a battle of status, or for one's own sake.

I am finding really difficult to explain. But in short, I am looking for a relatively less selfish characters, especially females.


BTW, you did not say if know any good partnership manga.

=============================
_P.S: Claymore is more or less OK. I guess I have been a bit harsh on Teresa. But all those stupid monsters were annoying me. May be that's why I gave up._


----------



## Mizura (May 10, 2011)

^ Say, would you happen to have a few Male recommendations fitting your criteria?


----------



## Blinky (May 10, 2011)

> But more importantly, why is a family of penguins living like humans? I still can't figure out.



You're not meant to think of that in a logical sense. 

I'm not one for analysing or anything but it's like... in Punpun they don't see them like bird people or whatever that's just how they're portrayed to the audience.


----------



## armorknight (May 10, 2011)

Mizura said:


> ^ Say, would you happen to have a few Male recommendations fitting your criteria?



Pretty much every shounen and seinen romance male lead fits at least 3/4 of the criteria lol.

Most of the assholes and douchebags are generally found in shoujo and hentai.


----------



## ... (May 10, 2011)

Blinky said:


> You're not meant to think of that in a logical sense.
> 
> I'm not one for analysing or anything but it's like... in Punpun they don't see them like bird people or whatever that's just how they're portrayed to the audience.


Yeah, I understand what you mean.





Mizura said:


> ^ Say, would you happen to have a few Male recommendations fitting your criteria?


So you want male characters that fit my criteria?

Let me see...
The priest from MW is a good example that comes to mind. Have you guys read MW? I thought it was a very good manga, written by the legendary Osamu Tezuka.
The lead character from Battle Royale is a very good example(I am sorry I have forgotten all the names). He believed that no one is born evil. He tried to understand all the people, including the 2 main villains. And the boy villain was about as cold and heartless as it gets.

Since this is naruto forums- in Naruto, Haku fits the description quite well. He was quite selfless. And even though Sasuke was the enemy, he could not kill him, because he was too kind. Lee is quite good, since he is very respectful.

Naruto, in general, is a decent manga because the manga in general makes an attempt to understand everyone - from relatively side characters like Lee and Neji to negative characters like Orochimaru(who wanted to see his parents again), Gaara (who was so lonely and rejected that he did not understand the meaning of love), Nagato and Itachi( they tried smaller sacrifice for bigger peace). In naruto, no one is potrayed as outright evil monsters.





armorknight said:


> Pretty much every shounen and seinen romance male lead fits at least 3/4 of the criteria lol.
> 
> Most of the assholes and douchebags are generally found in shoujo and hentai.


I would say nearly all of those lead character fits at least 2.5/4.
3/4 should not be very hard to find.
But a near perfect 4/4 is a bit rare, even for males. But they do exist.

But for female characters, even a 2.5/4 usually becomes a big ask.


----------



## Luckyday (May 10, 2011)

... said:


> Yes, I guess. And I don't want a completely emotionless character, either.
> 
> But hatred should not overwhelm rationality.I am finding it difficult to explain. I believe someone who is more capable of unselfish love is less capable hatred. Otherwise, it's a kind of selfish possesiveness, not real love.
> 
> ...



Hellsing I guess but I never read it so I'm not sure. You should try Fruit Basket. It's a shoujo and it doesn't have a partnership like you wanted but it's funny and the main female character is particularly a saint. You'll love her.


----------



## Mizura (May 10, 2011)

armorknight said:


> Pretty much every shounen and seinen romance male lead fits at least 3/4 of the criteria lol.


If by that you mean "bland idiots who get easily pushed around", then sure. D: I have a big problem with the "stupid" part, in particular, especially when the guy is a dead last and the girl is top of the class. Of course he'd treat her well if the girl is a total babe and he's a total loser. D: The girls in Shoujo worship the much better than them male leads too (which also pisses me off, you'd think a smart guy would not want dumb children).



... said:


> Let me see...
> The priest from MW is a good example that comes to mind. Have you guys read MW? I thought it was a very good manga, written by the legendary Osamu Tezuka.


Oh! Osamu Tezuka, that's a good sign, I'll check it out, thanks! As for Battle Royale though, it's a bit too violent for me, but I'll take your word for it. 



> Since this is naruto forums- in Naruto, Haku fits the description quite well. He was quite selfless. And even though Sasuke was the enemy, he could not kill him, because he was too kind. Lee is quite good, since he is very respectful.


Ah yes, Haku! <3 Too bad he died. D: I agree withi Lee, too, too bad he got side-lined and got reduced to comedy fodder in Part II (it was a huge shock for me in the beginning of Part II when Gaara was caught and Lee was more interested about racing).

The issue I have with is with Naruto himself though, loud arrogant idiot who's first instinct is to bash someone's face in unless he happens to learn that the person is the "same as him" (what if he isn't?).


----------



## ... (May 10, 2011)

Luckyday said:


> Hellsing I guess but I never read it so I'm not sure. You should try Fruit Basket. It's a shoujo and it doesn't have a partnership like you wanted but it's funny and the main female character is particularly a saint. You'll love her.


OK, I have added Fruits Basket to the list.



Mizura said:


> Oh! Osamu Tezuka, that's a good sign, I'll check it out, thanks! As for Battle Royale though, it's a bit too violent for me, but I'll take your word for it.


Yup, Battle Royale was a bit too violent. I had a hard time too, but since I had read other pretty violent mangas before, I was able to progress. I usually skipped quickly to the next page whenever I encountered brutality.




> The issue I have with is with Naruto himself though, loud arrogant idiot who's first instinct is to bash someone's face in unless he happens to learn that the person is the "same as him" (what if he isn't?).



Haha, yes, he is quite arrogant at times. But what I like about Naruto is his  simplicity and honesty; also, his persistence and focus. In a strange way, Naruto manages to remain nice despite the comic arrogance. So, in the end, he doesn't bother me.

=================

Talking about simplicity and honesty - I was just reading this manga called Liar game.I read some of the manga introduction threads in this forums and thought the plot of Liar Game can be interesting. So I gave it a try.

After reading the first 6 chapters, which I just finished, I thought that the story was interesting. But more importantly, I realised that the main character Nao fits my criteria. Somewhere in the middle, I thought she was being a bit evil and greedy, but after full 6 chapters I have to say that I am quite satisfied with her character so far.

_ In general, I think simple and honest girls like her are quite likely to satisfy my criteria.So, if you guys can find more women who are like Nao from Liar game, let me know.
Ch.18-20_


----------



## Blinky (May 10, 2011)

bwaha that's hilarious since throughout Liar Game Nao finds out that living honestly leads to being used and abused by others.


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## ... (May 10, 2011)

Blinky said:


> bwaha that's hilarious since throughout Liar Game Nao finds out that living honestly leads to being used and abused by others.



But I am hoping that she won't change despite that.
(In any case, don't spoil it for me)


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## Blinky (May 10, 2011)

Oh so you hope she's really naive and stupid I see.


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## ... (May 10, 2011)

Blinky said:


> Oh so you hope she's really naive and stupid I see.



Naive =/= Stupid

I am quite simple and honest myself (OK,may be not as much as her).


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## Blinky (May 10, 2011)

Continung to be naive when it does you no good IS stupid.


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## ... (May 10, 2011)

Blinky said:


> Continung to be naive when it does you no good IS stupid.



I don't mind if she learns not to trust people as easily as she does now, but overall I like that she has got feelings for everyone. I won't like her to change too much, except may be to stop her blind trust.


----------



## DarkLordOfKichiku (May 10, 2011)

Mizura said:


> There was also this harem manga, where the guy goes to live on this island. The three girls literally worship the guy as God and their goal in life is literally to get into his pants (some island legend/tradition). Even the initially rude one becomes a submissive wife-y type.



Huh, before someone else pointed it out as being Umi no Misaki (which I hadn't read yet... Up until a few hours ago  ), I thought at first that you were talking about Nagasarete Airantou, but... 

Anyway, as for a manga with a non-tsundere female lead, hmmm... How about Outlanders by Johji Manabe? In this regard, I suppose Kahm's biggest flaw'd be that she's a bit bossy (she's a princess, after all) and she DOES get physical with the character one or twice duriing the whole story, but overall, she treats Tetsuya with respect and is indeed willing to make large sacrifies for his sake.


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## Mizura (May 10, 2011)

I forgot about Liar Game! Nao annoys me though, to be honest. She's a bit too naive. >_< You can be gentle, supportive etc. without being naive.

My idea of a strong but gentle woman is actually Chisa Taiami from 7 Seeds (manga where several teams are frozen to avoid an Earth catastrophe, they awaken again in the future. The only person told beforehand is each team's guide and Team Summer A, the other teams are only told afterwards).

Chisa Taiami is part of Team Spring. The guide of Team Spring is very violent, and Chisa Taiami is a very polite and obedient woman. Hana, the protagonist of Team Spring, initially can't stand her mild attitude, but she comes to respect her when she realises that Chisa Taiami is acting her part as the daughter of a skilled politician: she uses gentleness to defuse anger and violence, but she isn't stupid either. When the guide becomes dangerous, she knows who to side with, and she actually has some halberd training when animals attack. I'm actually pretty impressed by her character. It's a pity that she's a minor character, and she's currently missing.

Natsu, the main protagonist of Team Summer B (and overall main female protagonist I guess) is pretty quiet and gentle too I guess, so you may check that out. Though, much of that has to do with the fact that she's shy. She does her best to become helpful throughout the series though. She has no hidden talent but she really tries her best.

Ayu of Team Summer A is quiet and gentle-ish, but she scares the crap out of me because her getting bullied by jealous girls left her a bit disturbed. xD

If you don't mind Shoujo/Josei by the way, check out Kuragehime? The loud, bossy one is actually the guy. The girl herself is pretty gentle.


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## ... (May 11, 2011)

DarkLordOfKichiku said:


> Huh, before someone else pointed it out as being Umi no Misaki (which I hadn't read yet... Up until a few hours ago  ), I thought at first that you were talking about Nagasarete Airantou, but...
> 
> Anyway, as for a manga with a non-tsundere female lead, hmmm... How about Outlanders by Johji Manabe? In this regard, I suppose Kahm's biggest flaw'd be that she's a bit bossy (she's a princess, after all) and she DOES get physical with the character one or twice duriing the whole story, but overall, she treats Tetsuya with respect and is indeed willing to make large sacrifies for his sake.


Outlanders? Sounds like a Hollywood name. May be I will give it a try.



Mizura said:


> I forgot about Liar Game! Nao annoys me though, to be honest. She's a bit too naive. >_< You can be gentle, supportive etc. without being naive.
> 
> My idea of a strong but gentle woman is actually Chisa Taiami from 7 Seeds (manga where several teams are frozen to avoid an Earth catastrophe, they awaken again in the future. The only person told beforehand is each team's guide and Team Summer A, the other teams are only told afterwards).
> 
> ...



Simple and straight-forward characters do appeal to me. I don't associate simplicity with stupidity. Naruto, for example, is not stupid in my book. Neither is selflessness stupidity in my book. However, after just finishing 19 chapters of Liar Game, I have to say that Nao is indeed a bit dull. She makes decisions in panic, rather than thinking about it rationally. However, this is not exactly because she is simple.
I am finding this manga to be quite interesting. However, I do not necessarily agree with the message that honesty and simplicity are necessarily hamful to a person. Long term benefits often outweigh the short term disadvantages. To trust bilndly, however, is definitely a weakness that can be exploited.

OK, 7 seeds added to my list. Sounds interesting.

Shoujos are usually not my type, but it's all right every once in a while. Kuragehime? OK, but I hope that the bossy guy will not annoy me too much.


----------



## Mizura (May 11, 2011)

No, I think Naruto is simple And stupid. That's the problem I have with him.  Well, he's smartened a bit since, thank god.

7 Seeds is Shoujo, but frankly it reads more like josei/seinen. It starts off a bit slow, but I find the plot very interesting. Natsu has her up and down moments, but ultimately she will always make the right, selfless decision, so you may want to be patient with her. Another thing that's interesting about 7 Seeds is that since it is about survival, ultimately everyone learns to be dedicated and respect each other. People who you think are antagonists will ultimately turn into protagonists (but not in the way the antagonists of Naruto do. It's like everyone slowly becomes more mature).

Anyway, the story shifts from one team to the next. Hana, the protagonist of Team Spring, is pretty stubborn so you might be annoyed with her at first. However, she most certainly fits your criteria #3: for Hana, her boyfriend (whom she doesn't know also came to this world) is the most important thing in the world, and the sentiment is mutual in Arashi. And she also pretty much treats everyone with respect, as long as the person isn't acting like a jerk. She's pretty kind too.

Koruri of Team Summer A may also fit some of your criteria.

As for Kuragehime, it's josei. It might not suit you, but it's about a jellyfish otaku girl, Tsukimi, whose house is about to be demolished. The bossy crossdressing guy look, he has a reason for crossdressing decides to find a way to help the occupants save the building. Tsukimi herself is a kind gentle girl who despite being an otaku, has a very feminine quality to her, she loves jellyfish because her mother took her to a jellyfish aquarium before she died, and for her, the tails of the jellyfish looks like beautiful dresses (under the guy's guidance, she ends up doing dolls then dresses, the plot is actually interesting. I mean, there actually Is a non-romance plot).


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 11, 2011)

The Situation said:


> not really maybe if this was some other forum or something but really this isn't even anywhere near the most offensive thread on the forums right now



it's more entertaining in the 'lol look at this idiot' kind of way rather than offensive


----------



## Gain (May 11, 2011)

Nuzzie said:


> [YOUTUBE]UhXPqKzzkqQ[/YOUTUBE]



I hope she can find it in her to apologize in the morning for her utterly selfish behavior.


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## Mizura (May 11, 2011)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> it's more entertaining in the 'lol look at this idiot' kind of way rather than offensive


I actually read the OP as "Can you recommend me a manga where the girl isn't a stereotypical violent loud-mouth? I'm pretty fed-up with those and am looking for a girl who displays strength through traditional virtues such as kindness and selflessness instead, and who actually listens and thinks before taking action."

When put it that way, you realize that there really aren't that many Shounen manga nowadays with women like that, so I found the question more interesting than bashing someone over sexism (you can do that in lots of other places). I thought the qualities he asked for in terms of Gandhi, Buddha and Mother Teresa. There aren't too many manga characters like that.

Plus, I immediately thought of Chisa Taiami of 7 Seeds, except it was too bad that she was a minor character. She reminded me that violence was not the only way you can get things done.


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## Samavarti (May 12, 2011)

Well the only manga that i think might meet the op requiriments (I'm not sure since i can't understand very well exactly what he wants) aside from the Ecchi, Harem and Hentai series, and that actually has a kind woman as main character and that has good characterisation is Emma.




> In Victorian-era England, a young girl is rescued from a life of destitution and raised to become a proper British maid. Emma meets William, the eldest son of a wealthy family, and immediately falls in love with him. William shares her feelings, but the strict rules of their society prevent their relationship from ever coming out in the open. Traditional class distinctions and rich, historical details provide the backdrop for this appealing romance.
> 
> Note: Volumes 8-10 are "Emma: Further Tales". They fill in details from the Emma manga, both before and after the events in that storyline.
> 
> ...


----------



## ... (May 20, 2011)

Sorry, I was out for a few days.In the mean time, I have finished reading all the available chapters of  Liar Game. I hear that the author is taking a break - too bad!
My opinions about the manga is that it is really an interesting theme, but if I have to criticize it - I just don't like that it always ends in a humiliating loss for Akiama'a opponents. I am just fed up with stories where one character wins all the time.



Mizura said:


> No, I think Naruto is simple And stupid. That's the problem I have with him.  Well, he's smartened a bit since, thank god.
> 
> 7 Seeds is Shoujo, but frankly it reads more like josei/seinen. It starts off a bit slow, but I find the plot very interesting. Natsu has her up and down moments, but ultimately she will always make the right, selfless decision, so you may want to be patient with her. Another thing that's interesting about 7 Seeds is that since it is about survival, ultimately everyone learns to be dedicated and respect each other. People who you think are antagonists will ultimately turn into protagonists (but not in the way the antagonists of Naruto do. It's like everyone slowly becomes more mature).
> 
> ...





About Nao- I have to say that although I am quite satisfied with her character, towards the end Nao was indeed becoming a bit annoying with all her drama and I thought she was also deviating a bit from her original philosophy. But nonetheless, she is better than most of the important female characters that I have come across recently.

7 Seeds is next on my reading list. I am getting really interested about this one. I am going to start reading it soon.



Mizura said:


> I actually read the OP as "Can you recommend me a manga where the girl isn't a stereotypical violent loud-mouth? I'm pretty fed-up with those and am looking for a girl who displays strength through traditional virtues such as kindness and selflessness instead, and who actually listens and thinks before taking action."
> 
> When put it that way, you realize that there really aren't that many Shounen manga nowadays with women like that, so I found the question more interesting than bashing someone over sexism (you can do that in lots of other places). I thought the qualities he asked for in terms of Gandhi, Buddha and Mother Teresa. There aren't too many manga characters like that.
> 
> Plus, I immediately thought of Chisa Taiami of 7 Seeds, except it was too bad that she was a minor character. She reminded me that violence was not the only way you can get things done.


Ah thanks- yes, you said it well -that's more or less what I was asking for.



Samavarti said:


> Well the only manga that i think might meet the op requiriments (I'm not sure since i can't understand very well exactly what he wants) aside from the Ecchi, Harem and Hentai series, and that actually has a kind woman as main character and that has good characterisation is Emma.


Ah- Emma- I remember watching it some time back- not a bad one, but a bit too shoujoish in my opinion.


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## Geralt of Rivia (May 20, 2011)

I feel sorry for the OP. Lots of idiots with poor reading comprehension letting their shitty opinions be known.


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## Blinky (May 20, 2011)

Shouldn't talk about yourself like that.


----------



## Geralt of Rivia (May 20, 2011)

Blinky said:


> Shouldn't talk about yourself like that.



Except I didn't insult the OP in this thread even once. You keep making retarded posts, I just guess that's a reflection of yourself. How pitiful.


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## Blinky (May 20, 2011)

HOW PITIFUL THOU ART.


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## Geralt of Rivia (May 20, 2011)

Haters gonna hate


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## Blinky (May 20, 2011)

Seems you've taken up my challenge and surpasses my expectations.


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## ... (May 20, 2011)

Thanks for giving me support, you guys(especially Ichigo).


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## Deathbringerpt (May 20, 2011)

Death Note and Bakuman are right up your alley.


----------



## blueblip (May 20, 2011)

Deathbringerpt said:


> Death Note and Bakuman are right up your alley.


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## p-lou (May 20, 2011)

thanks for supporting blatant sexism!


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## ... (May 20, 2011)

p-lou said:


> thanks for supporting blatant sexism!


 Surprisingly, two of the people who responded to me the most are females. I wonder if they would do it if they thought I was being sexist.


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## p-lou (May 20, 2011)

shut up already you stupid fucking twat

jesus tittyfucking christ


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## ... (May 20, 2011)

p-lou said:


> shut up already you stupid fucking twat
> 
> jesus tittyfucking christ



That's the response of someone who knows that he can't back up his words with reason.


----------



## legoffjacques (May 20, 2011)

... said:


> @ Tion Off Topic
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 





> Going off-topic is not allowed. So this is probably the last time I reply to you on this matter.
> 
> Actually, Feminist = Politically powerful Tsundere.
> A very marginal portion of feminists are not misandrists. And if they chose to call themselves feminists, then they have been brainwashed enough by feminists anyway.
> ...


 
Have you numbers to back up your claims, or are you simply spouting nonsense? For you being politically aware of oneself rights is being brainwashed?


> I have read books from centuries back. Books are like photos of past societies, no? Never for a second did it feel like men disrespected women.When kings ruled the land, queens usually ruled the kings. If anything, feminism has created the gender war. Earlier, women were treated like a superior and delicate being. Now, they are often seen as selfish bitches. If some men wanted for women to stay at home, it was only because he wanted his child to grow to up well, not because he thought women were inferior. Work isn't fun for 99% of males, it's a responsibility. For feminists, however, work has to be made fun for women.
> 
> On the other hand, men are constantly demonized and oppressed. For example, I often read news about how male nurses don't get the same rights that female nurses get, how male medical students are dropping out from subjects like gynaecology because of the the insults they face. Yet, this subject was invented and advanced mostly by men.
> The whole of western education system has been changed to suit the needs of girls, often at the cost of boys. It's practically impossible to find a male primary teacher.




Stop negating evidence. Misogyny begins with civilizations and is rooted in history. It occurs in many kinds of societies and at all levels of human social organization, including Stone Age cultures, and at all times in history. Studies by anthropologists and historians show that misogyny is, and always has been, widespread .Many organized religions are highly misogynistic. The Christian Bible, the Muslim Koran, the Hebrew Torah, and the sacred Buddhist and Hindu texts frequently criticize women for various moral defects and condemn woman?s body for the lust it inspires in men. Aristotle contended that women exist as natural deformities or imperfect males. Ever since, women in Western cultures have internalised their role as societal scapegoats and have been placed  in subordinate positions with limited access to power and decision making. Being second rate citizien, having virtually no rights and  being put under the will of the closest male relative or husband is not being oppressed? You should stop reading history then. Do i have to go with the gender wage gap for demostrating who have it worse?



> Indeed, they never cared. Most interviews from women of that time prove that. Only feminists brainwashed some women to believe that they were oppressed.
> And they were oppressed so much that all their demands were met within a month. What a real oppression!If men wanted to oppress women, feminism would have never ever succeeded.
> The truth is, all their demands could have been made in a much less dramatic and attacking fashion, and most of them would still be met.
> 
> I suggest you read Esther Villar's "the manipulated man" (free online available). She was a female doctor and expresses how she felt ashamed by the feminist movements of the time(early 70s). Of course, she goes a bit extreme, and I don't agree with everything she says, but you can see why she disliked those feminist movements- she could see nothing but immature  selfishness in them.


They never cared? Where the fuck you learned history? For you political movement like the suffragettes and historical figures like Emiliy Davinson existed only in an alternative reality? The second wave feminism is only a fantasy instilled in the masses? Please do yourself a favour: before suggesting someone to read a book learn your facts straight.


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## ... (May 20, 2011)

> Death Note and Bakuman are right up your alley


Never read Bakuman, what is it about?



legoffjacques said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I am just telling you to read the book "The manipulated man" by Esther Villar. She was a female doctor of the time.I suggest you to stop reading feminist literature and take a look at the actual conditions back then.

A few things I need to clear up. Of course, women should have every right that men have.But when I say brainwashed by feminists, I say that they held the wrong enemy as responsible for their lack of rights. It is true that most women never showed enough interest in voting,largely because they had enough power over their male husbands to make the right decisions. You should read some interviews of women from that time.It was always more of a case of higher class dominating the lower class, than men dominating women.And if they were opressed, they wouldn't have got all the rights so easily.

I was not talking about ancient greece or specific groups or religions, but more of a post-reneissance period. And while it is true that many religions held women as inferior, many also gave women a lot of extra securities and privileges.
As for being dominated and controlled by males, ever read Shakespeare?I wonder if you think Romeo was dominating Juliet.This was many centuries back,even before Newton. When Titanic was sinking, I wonder why the "dominating" males sacrificed themselves for the women and children.I also doubt that you have any real knowledge of hinduism or buddhism. In hinduism there are millions of female gods. In hindu epic Ramayana, Lord Rama was made to quit his kingdom and move to forests by his step mother. The entire story revolves around how Lord Rama risks everything to save his beloved wife Lady Sita, who was kidnapped by Ravana.

Lastly, WAKE UP! Females actually earn 15% more than males when they actually do the exact same amount of work as the males. They are also often eligible for the same work with lesser qualifications- especially in case of physical labour.

I support gender equality, not feminism- the term itself reeks of female chauvanism.


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## SAFFF (May 20, 2011)

Vivi would be right up your alley. Just read the Whiskey Peak to Alabasta part of One Piece.

Although there is no ecchi, or hentai, or hot girls, and Vivi is only a minor character.....but she has all the qualities you're looking for in a female character. Tell ya what! Why not just read the arc, and then after establishing her character go jack off to some hentai of her? Seems like a game plan to me.


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## Mizura (May 21, 2011)

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I also doubt that you have any real knowledge of hinduism or buddhism.



*Spoiler*: __ 



lol, I don't know anything about Hinduism, but I'm Chinese enough to know that there is exactly 1 female Buddha, Kwan Yin, and "she" was originally a male until temple-goers decided that it was inappropriate for women to pray to a male Buddha. That said, Buddhism at least is quite nice towards women compared to some extreme variants of Muslim. :|

Look, you claim that women have historically had enough control over their men to control their votes, so they were not interested in voting. That is not necessarily true. It's like saying Black slaves didn't want to vote either: when a group of people was never given the option, they simply don't think about it.

I have a mostly scientific background, and I really don't agree with your post-Renaissance claims of women advantages. There are plenty historical accounts of women who were denied recognition precisely because they're women. Look up genius mathematician Sophie German for example, who despite her enormous contributions to mathematics was denied a career in mathematics because of her gender. Emmy Noether was similarly blocked a post from the University of G?ttingen for several years because the Philosophy department complained that it would traumatise the returning male soldiers if they had a female teacher :\ .

In short, apart from physical abuse (some large-scale events including witch-hunts, female circumcision, foot-binding, polygamy and general domestic abuse, not to mention that historically in China and India, once the wife is married out, she is no longer considered part of her family and is generally abused by the family she married into as a house servant - until she bears a male son. Even now, in some muslim countries, if the girl is gang-raped the one who is sentenced to stoning to death is... the girl), the other greatest inequality against women was denial of Education.

Even today, in many poor regions, parents will do what they can for the boy to get good education, whereas girls are more likely to be aborted and to be denied work. I've read a few interesting articles over the year, including:
- How in Mexico, they finally convinced low-educated fathers to let their daughters go to school (prior to that, many even beat their daughters for wanting to go) by well... paying them.
- How in... I forgot if it Pakistan or whatever, but girls going to school were attacked by men.
- And yes, education aside, "honor killings", where girls are killed by their families because they get raped or the likes, Still happen nowadays.

As for women getting paid 15% more for the equal amount of work, there are actually many studies, some saying women are getting paid less, and some that they are getting paid more. One is that Single, childless women get paid 8% more, but that's because they have better education. What's more, if you look Across sectors, you'll find that even now, women have barriers to a number of high-paying jobs (science, engineering, management), and are often confined to lesser-paying jobs.

Ironically, I actually observe this problem to be more pronounced in Western countries than here in China (at least in the big cities). I work in a French company in China, and my boss is a woman, and I've seen first-hand how chauvinistic French companies can be even now. When I went to study in France, I was quite surprised. Here in China, since socio-economic change messed up just about everything, one "good" thing that happened however is that there are a lot of female entrepreneurs and they don't get discriminated against. I'm surprised by the number of female Company heads I see, when it's obviously not the case in Europe.



By the way, there are many different definitions to "feminism", but I'm not if I agree about yours.  For me, feminism is a movement that did what it can to reach equality of the sexes, since there was Obviously a lot of barriers against women. There are extreme groups to feminism, sure, but it's not quite correct to lump them all together, just like it wouldn't be correct to lump all the Christians with the Inquisition or all the muslims with terrorists. I consider myself a feminist too.

The violent females you dislike in manga are not feminists. They are not motivated by equal pay and career opportunities, in fact many of them want to find a rich superior husband to leech off of. They're just violent. :|


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## ... (May 21, 2011)

Mizura said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, sure, there have been mistreatment of women, but let's not generalize it and say that all women were oppressed . You forget that Madam Curie was awarded 2 distinct nobels by a male Nobel committee. I don't know of any other person getting two Nobels. Michael Faraday worked as Humphrey davy's assistant and lady Humphry Davy often treated MF like a lowly servant and caused him great pain. It can be found in his diaries. Blacks were essentially slaves. The condition of women can't even begin to compare with the condition of the black slaves. There were blacks that were presented like an animal in front of a human audience. The kind of abuse you explained all happened to males too-it's the higher class and more powerful that exploits the lower class and less powerful.Many poor fathers don't think that education is important at all, even for boys - and they take such decisions based on their own understanding of survival, not because they want to oppress the girls in particular.

I don't know what you have witnessed. And I also don't know what exactly happens in Muslim countries, but there is not doubt that few extreme examples of what happens in Muslim countries are often used to produce as an excuse to go to war.




I understand your sentiments, since you are a woman yourself, but I prefer calling myself gender equalist, rather than a feminist.

Anyway, I think we are going too off topic.

P.S: I mean you just have to look at the how most of the males here are attacking me because of what I said I.It's like they feel offended when I just say I don't like the word feminism.I will find it hard to believe that with the majority males being like this, they actually subjugated women.


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## Mizura (May 21, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Of course I know about Marie Curie, but she was the exception, not the trend! Marie Curie was the First woman to win the Nobel Prize, and she was the first woman to be entombed on her own merits in the Panth?on, Paris. In general, women were discouraged from pursuing mathematics and physics, and most men didn't dare marry women who do.

It might surprise you, but that trend is Still true today. When I went to study mathematics in France, my first huge shock was that there were so few girls in my class. Since I went to schools overseas, I never knew that "in general, girls were more encouraged to study literary subjects than scientific ones", so in general 3/4 of scientific/engineering classes were guys (down from 100% sure. Even today, many old French institutions only had dorms for guys, girls have to find dorms outside). Fortunately, we were all geeks so there was no sense of threat or anything. 

But this was post-2000. A known story about the opening up of these classes to females involved this teacher who, when faced with mixed classes, decided to ignore the female half. One day there was only one guy in his class, and he only addressed that one male student. One day there were only female students, and he simply walked out of class. This was the Trend, and it still has legacies today, you'll see it immediately if you step into a French engineering school.

Also, although it is true that the conditions of black slaves were worse than the conditions of women, that is irrelevant.  Suppose there's a girl who's being mean to you. The fact that there's a girl who's much worse somewhere does not excuse the one in front of you.

And no, those fathers Are oppressing the girls. Girls are systematically aborted in Chinese and Indian families because they traditionally prefer boys. In China, the ancient saying goes "A girl who's married away is waste water being thrown out." Did you know about the old practice of foot-binding in China? Do you know why it appealed? It's because the women became unable to walk properly, so they were so much less "threatening" to the men.

I once saw a South Korea comedy film set in a birth centre, criticising modern South Korea chauvinism. In it, all the parents would always go "I hope it's a boy, I hope it's a boy." For one woman, she had already given birth to 3 girls and no boys. The father sent the 3 girls to sing to the mother: "Mom give birth to a boy! If you give birth to another girl you're trash!"

In Africa, female circumcision is still common practice in some areas, and men will refuse to marry one who isn't circumcised. By circumcision, I mean they literally cut a whole piece of their flesh out when they are babies and sew the whole area up, only leaving a part for urine to go through. When the girl is married off, the husband cuts the strings open. This is to ensure her "purity", but why is the burden of purity on the girl, and never on the boys?

In Muslim states, as I've said, a girl who gets raped is sometimes stoned to death. Apparently it's her fault and she's useless and "tainted" now. There are laws against the men too, but there are rules like "there has to be 4 witnesses", and of course the guys would claim they were willing and such. Once a Muslim Imam claimed that girls who dress revealingly (as in, not covered from head to toe in the black burqa) deserve to be raped, because it's like "putting meat out for hungry dogs to steal." Well damn! Men are hungry dogs now! How come the responsibility is on the girls only? When I was in France, there were also several incidents that shocked French people involving Muslim immigrants: a Muslim girl got gang-raped. But the whole Muslim community she was living in said she deserved it because she was wearing a mini-skirt instead of staying at home all covered up.

I'm pretty sure that you've never been to Saudi Arabia either (arguably the most sexually oppressive place on Earth right now, because of the heavily religious influence). I went there once on a business trip, accompanied by guys of course, it would have been illegal for me to go in on my own (seriously). In Saudi Arabia, men are allowed up to 4 wives (or was it 3?). The King actually goes around this restriction by marrying and divorcing all the time, so he has several dozen ex-wives, each with her own kid(s).

Women are Only allowed to go out when they're dressed in Burqa:
link

Yes, 100% of women there were dressed like that (on an extremely hot summer day). They wouldn't be allowed outside otherwise. They did not have the right to drive a car, so basically they were being confined to where their husbands allowed them to go. When there are visitors at home, the women are Not allowed to show their face to men, so when we went to a home in Saudi Arabia, the wife was hiding somewhere.

Over in the West people sometimes scoff when they hear that France wants to propose a ban on Burqas, but there were some real incidents leading to those proposals: Muslim women who Didn't wear them were being considered whores and rape targets, and the legislation wanted to discourage that in any way they could.

Now, I went to Jeddah, which was the one city in Saudi Arabia that could be considered more or less "open." Over there, rules are slightly more relaxed: women were allowed to work (though still dressed in burqa), and foreigners like me could go there (under the supervision of a male). We actually had to wear the burqa, but we didn't have to cover our heads. I tried to at first anyway, but it was SO DAMN HOT I felt I was suffocating (it covers the mouth and nose), we couldn't go outside without a guy accompanying us, of course. I wouldn't have been allowed to go to the other cities in Saudi Arabia, and frankly, I don't miss the place.

It seems to me that you are not very aware of what is going on in the rest of the world. It's true that the situation has changed a lot in some countries like the U.S., but in much of the world, oppression of women is very real and very physical. The U.S. represents less than 5% of the world's population, the same for Western Europe. In the remaining 90% of the world, a lot of shit against women is still going on today.



I still consider myself a feminist.  It's like "Gay-rights advocates." They're not asking for you to treat gays as superior to heterosexuals, just that you treat them equally.

And it's often really not about "equal rights" either, but just "female rights" (hence, feminism, emphasis on Female rights). Things such as the right of women to education, for them to not have to undergo genital mutilation, for putting a stop to sex trafficking and , for them , etc.

These are all about Female rights, not just some equality on the workplace. Hence, the word feminism.



> I will find it hard to believe that with the majority males being like this, they actually subjugated women.


As I said, it seems you really don't know much about the rest of the world. If this were a forum in an extreme muslim state, there'd probably be calls to flog the women here suggesting that they deserve equal rights.

Really, the emasculating women who look down on women are just being bitches. -Real- feminists are more concerned about the rights of women in poor places, and who are facing life and death situations because of their gender.


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## ... (May 21, 2011)

Well, at this rate, my thread is gonna get locked for sure. At least next time, say something anime related too.



Mizura said:


> I still consider myself a feminist.  It's like "Gay-rights advocates." They're not asking for you to treat gays as superior to heterosexuals, just that you treat them equally.
> 
> And it's often really not about "equal rights" either, but just "female rights" (hence, feminism, emphasis on Female rights). Things such as the right of women to education, for them to not have to undergo genital mutilation, for putting a stop to sex trafficking and , for them , etc.
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



It's great to know that you study the subject as me - mathematics(although I am guesing you were a better student to study abroad and a bit older too).

But I wonder- is it only about encouragement? My parents, especially my mother, wanted/encouraged me to become a doctor or an engineer - but I still almost forced my way into mathematics. My general observation in school was that most females didn't want to pursue mathematics. My younger sister too wanted to study history despite my effort to create an interest in mathematics, but is now a medical student- thanks to parental pressure. Of course, I know from experience that women can be very good at mathematics and some totally love the subject, but that's a minority - just like most women don't want to play football.

Also, I can't figure out why a math loving boy can't love a math loving girl.I have never seen such a thing.

Abortion- Well there is also the matter of choice. It's their children, so they should have some rights over whether they chose to abort. I am not saying it's OK to abort all female children, but I can understand if someone wants a change after 3 girls in a row - just like I understand if someone wants a change after 3 boys in a row.I think a good law will be that the first child cannot be aborted,regardless of gender,but the remaining should be a matter of choice. One of the reasons I dislike feminists is because they often impose laws that restricts a person's ability to make choice- just like in the abortion issue.

circumcision - as far as I am aware , lots of boys are also circumcised when they are young, especially in certain religions. This circumcision does not provide any benefits to either males or females. so this is not a gender specific issue. It's a matter of human rights in general -and the important thing is to create an awareness against circumcision in general. This has got nothing to do with feminism.

polygamy and dressing- are these saudi wives marrying against their will?Are they forced into marriages? Are they forced to wear those dresses? If so, then it's that's a big problem. But forcing anyone against anything is a bad thing. That's a violation of human rights. Sure, feminism can interfere here, but even if feminists were non-existent, it would still be a big problem and human rights issue. There is something that is needed to be done regardless of the of the specific gender in trouble. At least, there should be a law that allows them to accept a different religion according to their will.
(I don't see polygamy in general as an evil thing - but only those relationships that are dishonest or forced upon someone.)

I am pretty sure lots of injustices are happening to lots of women.But if you look around you will find that men too are facing many problems that women will not generally face because they are somewhat protected. In most countries the suicide rate among males is actually higher.In fact, feminism has often done more to demonize men than to help women.And rather than tackling a problem from the root, it often aims at restricting male rights.

In summary,any problem that a woman faces can be brought under human rights issue. The term feminism is itself quite irrelevant and for the most part creates a gender divide.That's how I feel. Sure, I am all for female rights activism, but it should not target to axe male rights to free choice making.




Anyway, next time, please bring back something on topic.


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## Dei (May 21, 2011)

What your asking for is basically any standrard hentai out there.


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## ... (May 21, 2011)

Anyway, I have digested too many insults today, so I am going to  take a rest.
After that I will start 7 seeds.I'll give my comments on that to you.
But I will agree with you on this one:


*Spoiler*: __ 





Mizura said:


> . -Real- feminists are more concerned about the rights of women in poor places, and who are facing life and death situations because of their gender.


Indeed.
The only thing I have to say is that everything is a human issue first, a gender issue later.  So i think it will be a lot better if we try to highlight the problem, rather than the gender.


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## Mizura (May 21, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Encouragement: No, it Was outright prejudice. Women were simply told that "they're not supposed to do it" and that "women teachers in maths? Blasphemy!" You say many girls don't want to go into mathematics. But most boys don't either. Those who did were denied career opportunities because of their gender, there's NO ambiguity about that, sorry, even less so when most of the higher academies for Maths and Science simply -did not accept- women (as I said, even now, many older French universities have only male dorms). 

Read up on anything about the history of maths to see that no, it wasn't simply the girls who didn't want to do maths, in several thousand years of civilisation, the reason so few girls took up maths (even though by now studies show that girls aren't worse than boys at maths and science after all) is because 1. they were denied the education and 2. because they were deemed improper to take up maths. Even I was growing up, I was told that "girls weren't as good at maths as boys" (which is rather ironic, since I was #1 in maths in my class...)



> Abortion- Well there is also the matter of choice.


It's not because they had 3 girls in a row... it's because they Don't want any girls (=liability), period. Instead they only want boys (=assets). It's cultural. Boys = useful, girls = waste water to throw out (they actually have to Pay the family that takes the girl in - the dowry. There have been multiple instances in India where the bride was actually mutilated or  - that's how bad it is). And it's not just abortion, before abortion became available they simply *Killed* the girls or abandoned them (which makes it a human rights problem no matter how you look at it). In old Chinese culture, the first wife to give birth to a son would become the #1 female figure in the household, so everyone was hoping for a boy.

That's why in China, rural citizens are allowed to have a second child if their first is a girl, because they don't want everybody killing their babies. Still, the fact that India has the exact same problem shows it's indeed cultural. In both countries, there is a gender imbalance because of that, which means that many men can't find brides easily. And that's the reason why there's bride-trafficking in poorer countries: kidnapping of women to be locked up as baby-bearing brides for men elsewhere. Which is another exclusively female human-rights violation.

Circumcision: there's a Huge difference between female and male circumcision. Male circumcision only involves removing a bit of skin at the tip. Female circumcision involves cutting the whole area away, akin to cutting the entire tip of the penis. This is female circumcision:

(warning, very graphic)

And as I said, in some places they then sew up that area with a wire, so that the male "cutting her open" later on would be assured that she's a virgin. You don't have people sewing up male balls now do you?



> polygamy and dressing- are these saudi wives marrying against their will?Are they forced into marriages?


Actually... pretty much, they're not allowed to date, if they're found to go out with some guy they'll likely be beaten to death (not the guy though). You've really never read anything at all about honor killing? These girls are often killed by their own male relatives (father, brother, uncle) because they have supposedly brought "shame" to the family. Somehow, gang-raping the girl is not shameful though. In some countries such as Syria, !

You can be pretty sure that in these countries, if the woman were even to disobey the man, they can get stoned to death (already happened).



> I am pretty sure lots of injustices are happening to lots of women.But if you look around you will find that men too are facing many problems that women will not generally face because they are somewhat protected.


But nearly all of the problems faced by men are created by men, and very few of these problems are men-specific, whereas most of the problems women face are men-created and specifically because they are female. Or would you like to evoke some women-created male injustices?

In summary, precisely because these problems are culturally-formed women-specific problems, the term feminism is more than appropriate, just like "gay rights activist" and "children's rights activists." The problems men face are usually economic and political (and caused by men. Ex: war, famines, etc.) rather than cultural.

I'd also like to add that I'm all for more rights of men. Divorces, for example, tend to be skewed in favour of women (or rather, the wage-earner of the family - a woman I know divorced several times and since she was the wage-earner, she was the one to pay every time). This rather has historical reasons too: historically, women simply didn't work that much, so obviously they'd be dependent on the man, so they'd have to depend on him financially in case of divorce.

Well, as a feminist, I say: it should be the woman's responsibility to be able to support herself as well. I read about this guy who had to hand out half his fortune to a woman who spent his money like crazy and whom he was only married to for a few months. That woman should have been kicked out with minimal compensation. I know a couple where the woman is a bitch, and by all means I think the man should be awarded custody (again, I think the reason for this tendency is historical: the woman was usually the one at home taking care of the kids).

Feminism is about the rights of women, but it is not Against the rights of men, just like gay rights don't take away the rights of heterosexuals. It's not exclusive, in fact in many areas they overlap:
- If we work more, as decent wage-earners you wouldn't need that legislation handing all that money to the partner that didn't earn anything (whether female or male). I fully intend to maintain a proper job for myself.
- By pursuing careers, we give men the possibility to spend more time with the kids, even be stay-at-home dads. My half-sister actually does that, she's a computer engineer and the main breadwinner in her home, her husband is the one mostly responsible for taking care of the kids. They're both super-happy with the arrangement. If I have to, I'll accept being the main wage-earner in my home too.

Feminists do not encourage abuse of men. There are some extremists among feminists, but most are not, just like most religious people aren't terrorists. If they're trying to make things miserable for others rather than just making things better for themselves (not a zero-sum game), there's a problem in their way of thinking but it's not systematic. I've looked it up a bit and there are indeed incidents of domestic violence against men (women are more likely to be hurt though, lol), but it seems the better her wages/education the less likely she'll hurt her partner. So a woman with other things to do than abuse her husband benefits said husband too. It's up to men to stand up for their rights, not women to not stand up for theirs.



If you want something more on topic: you have made a link between feminism and violent girls in manga. But are those girls really feminists? Look at Ino and Sakura in the beginning of Naruto, both violent, but both also had for main ambition to be Mrs. Uchiha Sasuke. Indeed, many violent girls in manga go mushy when it comes to rich, powerful and good-looking men, in fact they tend to look down on the (much more plain) protagonist precisely because he doesn't live up to "great husband to depend on" standards. They're not being feminists, they're being violent anti-feminists.

I like to read josei more than shoujo, and I can't help but notice that career women are rarely portrayed as violent or looking down on men. At most they'd go "I don't need men." Maybe they'll complain about not being able to find a boyfriend or not having the time. But they don't hit anyone and they don't disrespect anyone in particular.

I think you were affected by images of women parading around chanting "down with men" or the likes. Just because they're flashy though, doesn't mean they represent feminism. You know those flashy Gay Pride parades where gays dress up all weird? They don't define gays either, I have a few gay friends and they're perfectly normal.


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## Scarecrow Red (May 21, 2011)

... said:


> That's the response of someone who knows that he can't back up his words with reason.



Says the guy that insists feminism was made by man-hating hypocrite women.


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## ... (May 21, 2011)

I am reading 7 Seeds now. From the looks of it, I have probably read the first few chapters before. I just forgot the names of this manga. This time I am gonna continue to many more chapters.




Mizura said:


> If you want something more on topic: you have made a link between feminism and violent girls in manga. But are those girls really feminists? Look at Ino and Sakura in the beginning of Naruto, both violent, but both also had for main ambition to be Mrs. Uchiha Sasuke. Indeed, many violent girls in manga go mushy when it comes to rich, powerful and good-looking men, in fact they tend to look down on the (much more plain) protagonist precisely because he doesn't live up to "great husband to depend on" standards. They're not being feminists, they're being violent anti-feminists.
> 
> I like to read josei more than shoujo, and I can't help but notice that career women are rarely portrayed as violent or looking down on men. At most they'd go "I don't need men." Maybe they'll complain about not being able to find a boyfriend or not having the time. But they don't hit anyone and they don't disrespect anyone in particular.
> 
> I think you were affected by images of women parading around chanting "down with men" or the likes. Just because they're flashy though, doesn't mean they represent feminism. You know those flashy Gay Pride parades where gays dress up all weird? They don't define gays either, I have a few gay friends and they're perfectly normal.





*Spoiler*: __ 



I am not sure if the situation was as bad as you are making it out to be. For example G.H.Hardy's both parents were math teachers themselves. Einstein's first wife Mileva was his classmate, if I recall.
If some men in past higher education institutes didn't want a female to join them it was probably more of a feeling of uneasiness than a desire to oppress.
Also, a lot of people have achieved a lot despite not having a professional career.Take Fermat or Mersenne for example. Fermat was a lawyer, Cardano was a gambler.A lot of Einstein's most important works were done as a patent clerk, same for Srinivasa Ramanujan - a lot of his works existed even before he met Hardy. While Sophie Germain might have been denied post at prestigious institutes, she was also given all kinds of awards because of her achievements.
So, I am not sure if a few denials of professional career alone completely explain the lack of women in mathematics history. If anything, housewives should have more time for something like mathematics or theoretical physics. I can understand if you were talking about  engineering that requires a labarotary, but not mathematics. Even now, even in developed countries, you see like 5 male IMO contestants and 1 female. If you look at percentage of passing at schools, more female students actually graduate from schools. But somehow, IMO contestants are mostly males. Of course, that 1 female student is just as good as those male students,but my own experience tells me that most women simply don't want to pursue research in subjects such as mathematics or physics. If they want, they are given every opportunity.
Since I was a math student myself, I never observed any injustices being done towards female students. Those who want to pursue mathematics are very well accepted. Another observation that I made is that males are far more likely to remain obsessed day and night with anything, not just mathematics. It's often not a question of capability, but a matter of obsession and liking it. I read about this one research sometime back that suggested that obsession may be a testosterone related phenomena.

Now, I am not denying the possibility that this lack of interest in mathematics may be because of social factors(although I am pretty sure that it's not a deliberate oppression), the important thing is to ensure that they have the choice, rather than forcing it.

Surely, even if some prejudice existed in past, they don't exist in the modern world. I mean despite the parents of both of us wanting us to take up something different, we were able to make that choice and go into mathematics.Parents have their wishes, that's not oppression.
Also, you talk about role models, is it really necessary for women to have only female role models? I, for example, had female sports role models when I was little. I liked women's tennis way more than I liked men's tennis.

If I dislike feminists, it's because they attack men for all their problems. Almost every time that I came across a feminist article, documentary,news columns,legal issues, marches - I found that the primary focus was more at holding men responsible for everything and attacking their freedom rights, rather than addressing the actual problem. Perhaps they want to use shaming tactics to get their demands accepted, even if sometimes unjustified.  I often find women complaining more, than actually doing something with what they have. The truth is, as soon as they gathered enough population to demand about some rights, they were immediately granted it. Could it be that Sophie Germain's situation was because she belonged to such a small minority of women, that she couldn't make a point? If there were enough women mathematicians out there, they could have established their own institute for girls.

You just have to look at primary education. Not just western countries, but even many other countries. You can't find a single male. It's not that there aren't men who are willing to take up that job, but they can't because they are feared. And being raised in such a system I have seen how these female teachers often mistreat the male students without ever trying to understand them. I know very well that anyone having power can abuse it, the gender is irrelevant.


I am not sure if you can describe country of billions like India and China with a few unjustified killings in undeveloped areas. I also don't agree that Indian women marry to become servants. Rather, they often force their husbands to move into a separate house, away from his parents. Dowry is very rare in developed areas nowadays, and if they exist it is often under conditions like that the husband is going to make a separate home or car for the wife or something like that. The problem is that feminists often don't look at the full picture and selectively pick some extreme examples.

As for child killing -that's wrong regardless of the gender, no? Even if females are the primary victims in this area, abortion laws that address only female benefit is not ideal solution, definitely not in the long run. We have to ensure that child killing does not happen at all.Circumcision happens in various degrees and males are often circumcised at a younger age.There was a report I read about this one woman who fainted when she witnessed hes baby son being circumcised. So again, regardless of arguing whose circumcision is worse, I think we can agree that it needs to be stopped for both genders? So, in the end these are human rights issues in general, rather than a feminist issue.

I have heard about honor killings, but I am not sure about the extent to which is practiced. I am pretty sure that there are some Islam countries where it isn't practiced at all. But if it is true, then it has to be stopped immediately.Things like that are really brutal and can't be excused. The bigest barrier is the belief system. Unless we can convince them that they are being cruel, and their these specific religious teachings are wrong,it will be hard to overturn. I think everyone should unite and make an appeal to them.

 A lot of problems that women face are because of false notions about them. What feminists do is that they  try to solve everything with new laws. But false notions can't be changed with laws and quotas, they have to be gained with reasoning and understanding and creating mass awareness. It's a bit like covering the floor with a small carpet. What feminists do is that they try to pull the carpet towards their own area, without noticing that some other part is left bare. The real solution is to make the carpet bigger.

I don't agree that men are responsible for all their own problems. It's much more complex than that. And indeed, feminists have often added to men's problems. And anyone in power, or majority, can exploit it. I have witnessed many women do it myself. It's immature and naive to put men as the scapegoat.

I think women should have the choice to go to work, but it should never be forced like what many feminists try to do. I am really grateful  that despite being highly qualified, my mother quit her job early and became a house wife. It meant that I could see her face when I returned from school. I can't even imagine a childhood where that opportunity wasn't there. Sure, she later again worked as a teacher for a couple of years when we grew up a bit(this time she quit because she felt tired) ,but I am grateful that she was besides me in my childhood.






So, there is something wrong with wanting to become Mrs. Uchiha Sasuke? I thought both Naruto and Lee wanted to be Mr. Haruno Sakura too. I don't see your point at all. 
Also, it's not exactly violent girls that I associate with feminism - it's those that have no respect for men's feelings. Neither Sakura, nor Ino were particularly annoying to me.


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## ... (May 22, 2011)

I just finished reading 4 chapters of 7 seeds. So far there seems to be no sign of the Chisa person that you talked about. Only 5 characters shown so far. And I am not sure where this one is going. It kind of feels like some kind of survival story, which is not bad. Anyway, I am a very patient person.
Also, that Botan woman is something. She scared away those two and the "bully" semimaru feels safe around her.LOL


BTW, I hope that you didn't misunderstand my last post.

*Spoiler*: __ 



I absolutely believe that women have the same potential for achieving anything in any field as men do- that includes mathematics or anything else. Also, I don't like stereotyping based on gender, but I do feel that on the average, there might be a few differences between the natural tendencies of men and women.

I definitely support any movement for a good and justified cause, including female rights movement. What I don't like about feminism, is their frequent attacks on men - direct or indirect. I also believe that any good movement should aim at giving choices, rather than trying to force things.

I will have to stop here my discussion on feminism. I guess we think differently, based on different things that we have experienced. So perhaps we are never going to agree completely.


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## Caitlyn Jenner (May 23, 2011)

Majority of modern mangas treat females like they're rag dolls.


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## Mizura (May 23, 2011)

I told you, Chisa is a minor character, that's why I didn't recommend 7 Seeds from the start. But the other female protagonists are decent too, I think. The story is set in the future and there are 5 teams in total. The story will shift from one team to another. I'm glad you're not put off by Botan by the way, I personally like her a whole lot too. In fact:


*Spoiler*: __ 



She used to be pregnant but her baby died when she got hit by a drunk driver in the past. Because of that she and her husband divorced and her husband remarried, but even then she wishes that her husband was happy until the end. So she's a pretty nice person too.





> Also, it's not exactly violent girls that I associate with feminism - it's those that have no respect for men's feelings.


Isn't that just a bitch? As I said, human rights are not a zero-sum game, if I support gay rights for example it doesn't mean I look down on heterosexuals.

Anyway:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Maths history: you don't pick up Fourrier, Laplace, Set Theory, Differential equations etc. on your spare time, these topics have to be taught. What grade are you in? The few women who managed to pick up maths historically only managed to do so because they came from mathematical families who provided them the learning opportunities.



> If some men in past higher education institutes didn't want a female to join them it was probably more of a feeling of uneasiness than a desire to oppress.


That made no sense at all. It'd be like saying "because I'm uneasy about a man's physical power, I demand that he be immobilized." The women were denied a right to education.



> Since I was a math student myself, I never observed any injustices being done towards female students.


You're in the 21st Century. You claim however that after the Renaissance period, there was no bias against women in mathematics at all. That's not true. Read up any book on math history. When you say you're a math student, did you Really study theoritical math? Had to demonstrate several algorithms to calculate Pi, had to produce 3 pages of proofs just to show that one theorem can be applied? Math is built on past theorems and discoveries, the reason Fermat's Last Theorem was never proved until recently is because the mathematical tools needed to prove it simply didn't exist. A housewife (note that internet didn't exist back then) would not be able to access the existing tools needed to tackle more complicated problems and make further advances. A housewife with minimum education won't pick that up on her own.



> but my own experience tells me that most women simply don't want to pursue research in subjects such as mathematics or physics.


My experience is that most men don't want to pursue mathematics or physics either. In my class there were 2 girls who wanted to do so and 1 guy. And I grew up being taught that "girls weren't as good as maths as guys", even though the #1 and #2 in maths in my class were girls.



> I am not sure if you can describe country of billions like India and China with a few unjustified killings in undeveloped areas. I also don't agree that Indian women marry to become servants. Rather, they often force their husbands to move into a separate house, away from his parents.


Wives in India and China move INTO the houses of their husbands (fact, unlike your opinion), making them more vulnerable to abuse by the entire family. As for dowries not existing anymore and is dependent on the husband moving out, that is not true either.




> Paying and accepting dowry has been illegal in India for 40 years but it is still rampant. Nisha's father bought the couple a brand new car and dozens of household appliances.
> 
> On the big day, however, Munish and his mother Vidya suddenly demanded a cash dowry.
> [snip]
> ...


Also, this preference for males is much more widespread than you think. See:
Male-to-female gender imbalance

Since people can tell the gender of the baby now before birth, they simply abort before-hand, resulting in said gender imbalance. Before, they really did often resort to killing the baby girls.

Circumcision: Female and male circumcision are Not the same things. I'm against male circumcision too, but they're about as equivalent and removing a nail vs removing a hand. The purpose of male circumcision was originally at least partly for health reasons, since not removing the skin could result in a number of medical complications later on, but which are avoidable now.

The purpose of female circumcision is Entirely to sell the girl at a higher price by ensuring her virginity (nobody cares about male virginity), at a Very high price to her health. Type III circumcision removes nearly the entire genital area, it's like cutting off the penis, and has a 55% mortality rate to go with it.

Male and female circumcision are both bad, but they're not the same issues, either physically or socially. A guy won't be suspected as a whore because he's not circumcised.



> I have heard about honor killings, but I am not sure about the extent to which is practiced. I am pretty sure that there are some Islam countries where it isn't practiced at all.


Uh, if it's not practiced in just "some" countries, that's not very helpful. 



> Sharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at Birzeit University, says that honor killing is:
> A complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society. .. What the men of the family, clan, or tribe seek control of in a patrilineal society is reproductive power. Women for the tribe were considered a factory for making men. The honour killing is not a means to control sexual power or behavior. What's behind it is the issue of fertility, or reproductive power.
> 
> An Amnesty International statement adds:
> The regime of honor is unforgiving: women on whom suspicion has fallen are not given an opportunity to defend themselves, and family members have no socially acceptable alternative but to remove the stain on their honor by attacking the woman.






> Among Palestinians Honor Killing is not recorded as any crime at all, in fact there are festivities surrounding the event.
> 
> Although the murder of dishonorable women is mostly ignored in Pakistan, that country alone reports more than a thousand honor-killings a year.


Keep in mind that these women actively live out their lives to avoid being the target of honor killings, and many honor killings are disguised as suicides, or the women are forced to commit suicide through torture. Also, brides in many countries were traditionally married-off young, like in their early teens. In many countries, tradition also involved marrying the girls very young, often to much older grooms:



> India
> According to "National Plan of Action for Children 2005", (published by the Department of Women and Child Development of India) a goal has been set to eliminate child marriage completely by 2010. This plan is proving to be successful, though it is still difficult to monitor every child due to the sheer population of India.
> 
> According to UNICEF's "State of the World's Children-2009" report, 47% of India's women aged 20?24 were married before the legal age of 18, with 56% in rural areas. The report also showed that 40% of the world's child marriages occur in India.
> ...


I can assure you these girls are in no position to demand anything out of the husband's household that she is marrying into.



> What feminists do is that they try to solve everything with new laws.


I haven't heard many new motions for pro-feminism laws in developed countries in a while. Is it really such a bad thing to establish a law in India saying "you can't marry off a 15 years-old girl and burn her alive if her family doesn't provide a big enough dowry", or "you can't cut off the entire genitalia of a girl in an Islam country or kill her getting raped and thus not preserving her purity" (remember, this is actually legal or ignored by the authorities in some countries)?



> I am really grateful that despite being highly qualified, my mother quit her job early and became a house wife. It meant that I could see her face when I returned from school. I can't even imagine a childhood where that opportunity wasn't there.


My mother was there for me until I was 6, then got fed-up and took up working. And I for one actually appreciated having such a role-model for me growing up. Just because you can't imagine it, doesn't mean it's that bad.


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## ... (May 24, 2011)

Mizura said:


> I told you, Chisa is a minor character, that's why I didn't recommend 7 Seeds from the start. But the other female protagonists are decent too, I think. The story is set in the future and there are 5 teams in total. The story will shift from one team to another. I'm glad you're not put off by Botan by the way, I personally like her a whole lot too. In fact:
> 
> Isn't that just a bitch? As I said, human rights are not a zero-sum game, if I support gay rights for example it doesn't mean I look down on heterosexuals.



Oh, so she is only a very minor character. When you mentioned all those teams, I thought each team's characters will get a good amount of time. So, I am guessing Chisa will get at least a few chapters? Does she appear towards the end?
And yeah, Botan has looked like a nice character so far, although she looks a bit manly.

To be honest, I have seen feminists do exactly that - demonizing men and looking down on them. And I know you probably didn't mean it, but you actually did almost exactly that in your previous last post. One of your lines translates to "all the problems in this world are due to men". How naive, and not to mention, offensive.


Anyway, like I said, I am not going to feminism discussion anymore.Just a few corrections.

*Spoiler*: __ 




1. Unlike nowadays,when mathematics has become a highly branched out and specialised subject, it was actually much easier to contribute as an amateur in the early days. I actually provided you with several examples of amateur contributions last time.Also, Newton once wrote in a letter that for the most part,he taught himself from books.Ramanujan was the son of a book binder, and he largely self-taught mathematics based on the books he had access to.One consequence was that he was not very rigorous, but he did contribute immensely.

2.Germain was never denied math education, only a career in it. Of course that's wrong, but I was only trying to say that it probably didn't come from ill feelings.As for men being denied professions because of being feared-that's very much a visible reality here in this 21st century.(Of course, the feminists are never going to anything about that). Also,a lot of 19th century women actually did have a career in mathematics.Feminists cherry picked some example to demonize men.

3.No doubt mathematics is an unpopular subject. But still, I see more boys being interested in it than girls,especially the "obsessed with challenging problems" type.

4.There are already severe punishment laws against murdering/torturing people. We don't need any extra-special feminist laws for that. What is needed is finding ways to expose these 1 in 100 thousand rare bastards. Plus, I suspect stats from feminist websites like BBC.

5.I actually know a lot more about these two countries than you think-especially India.It is indeed true that the wife moves into the husband's house - but in the vast majority of the cases -that only lasts about 1 or 2 years.The wife will usually force the husband to move somewhere else and start a nuclear family.And you are making it sound like simply living in a joint family is an abuse in itself.Hell, I even seen some women get upset when the husbands talk to their parents on phone, despite living in a nuclear family.I don't get women.

6.Both my paternal and maternal grandmother married at 15. One of them completed her masters AFTER she married and had a job untill her retirement age. Both of them are very happy personalities and told me a lot of funny stories about their pre and post marriage life.There wasn't even any hint of abuse in them.Those 15 year old marriage stats hardly tell me anything about their personal lives, because I know very well that it is possible to be happy even after marrying at 15.

7.You didn't miss your mom when you were little, but I am sure I would have.Every person is different. That's why I think going into job should be a matter of choice rather than be forced, like many feminists try to do.


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## ... (May 26, 2011)

I completed 15 chapters so far. And you were right Mizura, Chisa seems to be a very nice and gentle character - and she is not weak. Although, she does not appear very frequently.

I find the story to be a bit slow, but still a good one. Thanks for suggesting it.


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## Mizura (May 26, 2011)

Yeah, I think it's a pity that she does not appear more often. I found her to be a very rare type of strong woman within manga. But anyway, glad you liked it, it gets better later too. If you like the survival genre, wait till you get to team Summer A.


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