# YVHV (SMT) & Abraxas (Marvel) vs the Doctor Whoverse



## Fang (May 13, 2012)

How does this go?


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## KaiserWombat (May 13, 2012)

Can't recall exactly how high on the multiversal scale Who-verse is, but didn't YVHV destroy millions of universes in an instant or something similarly insane?

If that's his scale, they really can't counter it. Maybe if the Time Lords attempted to impose the Final Sanction, but even then...


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## Fang (May 13, 2012)

Billions at minimum and the feat is both creating and destroying in the time of an eyeblink, constantly since basically time immemorial, also his avatar exists in and outside of the Amala Universe in "countless" worlds according to Lucifer and the Lady in Black.

I have no idea what Final Sanction is but even with Aleph created to kill big Y/God, and with the blessings and powers of Lucifer and Satan, he just came back and put Aleph in a multiversal GER style death loop.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 13, 2012)

how multiversal is Abraxas ? 

though I'm getting the feeling he's not needed here


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## KaiserWombat (May 13, 2012)

Final Sanction is a transcension of the entire Time Lord race from physical entities to beings of pure consciousness, while simultaneously wiping out all of creation in the extended multiverse, including the multiversal structure itself.

But there's not to indicate that the entire Who-verse even consists of billions of realities, much less being capable of eliminating them so casually as YVHV can.


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## Claude Giroux (May 13, 2012)

Fang is mad because Star Wars lost horribly and made a stupid spite thread against Doctor Who.


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 13, 2012)

oh hello dupe-kun


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## Calamity (May 13, 2012)

From what I know of both verses, YHWH should take this one. He is at the top of his verse filled with quite a lot of impressive multiversals. Abraxas is most likely not even needed. 
The WHOverse, while powerful and having infinite universes does not have a single entity(AFAIK) that has total control/power over it. I don't think there is anyone of YHWH's level here. It definitely has the hax though to it's credit so it might have a chance.


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## Fang (May 13, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> Final Sanction is a transcension of the entire Time Lord race from physical entities to beings of pure consciousness, while simultaneously wiping out all of creation in the extended multiverse, including the multiversal structure itself.
> 
> But there's not to indicate that the entire Who-verse even consists of billions of realities, much less being capable of eliminating them so casually as YVHV can.



Is that the same as the Dalek reality bomb?


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## DestinyDestroyer (May 13, 2012)

Isn't YHVH nigh omnipotent or something?

And how high in the multiversal-scale Dr Who-verse is?


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## KaiserWombat (May 13, 2012)

Nah, the Dalek Empire's Reality Bomb was pure BOOM BOOM: nobody was going to survive _that_ detonation. That bomb also required to be located in the Medusa Cascade's trans-dimensional position in order to be multiversal in effect; so its firepower is multiverse+ but its actual range is probably only universal outside of preparation.

While the Final Sanction was going to be the absolute conclusion to existence irregardless of where the Time Lords located themselves.


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## Fang (May 13, 2012)

So the Daleks need prep and a specific location for it to be used at full power/multiversal scale destruction? Wasn't the Final Sanction actually shown or was it stopped? So it would erase existence?

Aren't there actual cosmics in Who like those beings who are larger then universes?


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## KaiserWombat (May 13, 2012)

The Reality Bomb needs an ideal location to maximise its full potential/scale, yes: fortunately for the Dalek Empire though, it's rather easy for them to navigate through to dimensions that are absent of conventional space or time, so it's simply a matter of them discovering the "corridor" realm in a connected multiverse (the pin which holds them all together, as it were) and setting up shop there for a maximum timeframe of a couple minutes before firing.

Not a huge expert on the extended Who-verse canon, but the larger-than-universe entities are called Swimmers, I believe, which wipe out entire universes by making physical contact with them.

Too small a scale against foes of this calibre, though.


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## Eldritch Sukima (May 13, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> But there's not to indicate that the entire Who-verse even consists of billions of realities, much less being capable of eliminating them so casually as YVHV can.



That much is explicitly stated in Army of Ghosts, actually.



			
				Army of Ghosts said:
			
		

> THE DOCTOR: The space between dimensions. There's all sorts of realities around us, different dimensions - billions of parallel universes all stacked up against each other. The Void is the space in-between. Containing absolutely nothing. Imagine that - nothing. No light, no dark, no up, no down. No life. No time. Without end. My people called it the Void, the Eternals call it the Howling. But some people call it Hell.


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## KaiserWombat (May 13, 2012)

Huh, been a while since I watched that episode (Summer 2011? Maybe even 2010 now).

Interesting.

Still though, YVHV's method is definitely much more casual than the Time Lords' or the Daleks', and it doesn't appear to force him into making any compromising positions or killing himself to do it.


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## Fang (May 13, 2012)

What is a parallel reality? Is that supposed to be an actual different universe or just a separate timeline? And yeah, YVHV is pretty insane given how he creates, destroys, and continues the cycle of rebirth in just eyeblinks with billions if not more universes.

Also Abraxas is here as well.


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## Eldritch Sukima (May 13, 2012)

The Doctor attempts to explain the multiverse in Doomsday as well, indicating that each decision made by anyone creates a new universe:



			
				Doomsday said:
			
		

> THE DOCTOR: It's Pete from a different Universe. There are parallel worlds, Jackie. Every single decision we make creates a parallel existence, a different dimension where--



So the Whoverse is likely an infinite multiverse, or pretty close to one.


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## Fang (May 13, 2012)

Interesting, sounds similar to the Conception from SMT III.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 13, 2012)

The Great Will probably solos.

While Doctor Who has an infinite Multiverse, no one being has control over that Multiverse. And the reality bomb is easy as hell to disable. All you need to do is destroy one planet.


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## Casshern (May 15, 2012)

The eyeblink thing of YVHV is false since no timeframe is given in any of the games.

For the rest both him and Abraxas take this, DW verse is highly overstimated.

One thing that I am curious about is how is Abraxas multiversal in power? I know the UN was needed to kill which gives him that type of durability, but I can recall any feat from him destroying a multiverse, he did destroy several universes but nothing on the scale that would give him the juice to fight with other people of that level.

Again like I said I don't recall, so if someone has the feats feel free to correct me.


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## Fang (May 15, 2012)

Is dupe kun back?


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## Casshern (May 15, 2012)

Who is dupe kun?


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## Fang (May 15, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_x6UNF1MdQ&list=FLDh_ZkPP_F4pMyzgyrqUMnQ&index=78&feature=plpp_video[/YOUTUBE]

You are dupe kun, dupe kun.


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## Bioness (May 15, 2012)

Claude Giroux said:


> Fang is mad because Star Wars lost horribly and made a stupid spite thread against Doctor Who.



This was my first thought as soon as I saw the thread title and thread maker.



KaiserWombat said:


> Not a huge expert on the extended Who-verse canon, but the larger-than-universe entities are called Swimmers, I believe, which wipe out entire universes by making physical contact with them.


They don't wipe out universes but yes they are the size of universes


Fang said:


> What is a parallel reality? Is that supposed to be an actual different universe or just a separate timeline? And yeah, YVHV is pretty insane given how he creates, destroys, and continues the cycle of rebirth in just eyeblinks with billions if not more universes.
> 
> Also Abraxas is here as well.



Adding Abraxas is clearly spite, and honestly Fang do you really not know what a parallel world/reality is?



ThanatoSeraph said:


> The Great Will probably solos.
> 
> While Doctor Who has an infinite Multiverse, no one being has control over that Multiverse. And the reality bomb is easy as hell to disable. All you need to do is destroy one planet.



A few things

1) The big powers of the Doctor Who verse who do control universes and such are rarely talked about let alone given actual showings
2) The reality bomb is not easy to disable, the plot just made it look that way, if you destroyed a planet the Daleks would simply grab the planet from an earlier timeline

As for this thread, simple question how was YVHV defeated and could that be replicated.


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## Fang (May 15, 2012)

0/10

Would not ever read a Bioness thread


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 15, 2012)

Bioness said:


> A few things
> 
> 1) The big powers of the Doctor Who verse who do control universes and such are rarely talked about let alone given actual showings
> 2) The reality bomb is not easy to disable, the plot just made it look that way, if you destroyed a planet the Daleks would simply grab the planet from an earlier timeline
> ...



1) I know that. However, Doctor Who lacks high end multiversals. No one being is in control of the entire *Multiverse*
2)That planet would then be destroyed. And wasn't it a plot point that those planets, in that point of the timeline in particular were needed? Also, the Dalek fleets with the Reality Bomb would be pretty easily wiped out by any decent multiversal anyway.

He was killed by Aleph. I haven't played SMT2, so I don't know the exact details but he wasn't really killed at all. Aleph temporarily killed an avatar/form he was taking, but due to his omniprescence/humans praying, he pretty much came back instantly.


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## Casshern (May 15, 2012)

Fang said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_x6UNF1MdQ&list=FLDh_ZkPP_F4pMyzgyrqUMnQ&index=78&feature=plpp_video[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> You are dupe kun, dupe kun.



Was this suppose to prove the eyeblink part? cause it didn't.

And lol at the dupe kun thing.


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## Bioness (May 15, 2012)

Fang said:


> 0/10
> 
> Would not ever read a Bioness thread


Don't you have some Star Wars fanfic to jerk off to?



ThanatoSeraph said:


> 2)That planet would then be destroyed. And wasn't it a plot point that those planets, in that point of the timeline in particular were needed? Also, the Dalek fleets with the Reality Bomb would be pretty easily wiped out by any decent multiversal anyway.



No it didn't have anything to do with the plot, the Daleks did take 3 planets in an earlier timeline than the others but the reason for this is unknown.

And yes I'm aware that they would not be able to fight a multiversal power with just ship, I was just pointing out incorrect statements..there are actually a lot more incorrect statements about Doctor Who in this thread but they are not relevant to the topic.



Casshern said:


> Was this suppose to prove the eyeblink part? cause it didn't.



This, I too just watched that video and it did nothing for the YVHV calims, not saying the claims are wrong but the video served no purpose for this thread.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 15, 2012)

Casshern said:


> Was this suppose to prove the eyeblink part? cause it didn't.
> 
> And lol at the dupe kun thing.





Bioness said:


> This, I too just watched that video and it did nothing for the YVHV calims, not saying the claims are wrong but the video served no purpose for this thread.



And you two have zero retort.

Pretty much this, all that explanation Kagatsuchi can cover all the Universes explained. YHVH >>> That guy.

YHVH >>> Lucifer >= Hitoshura who tanks the destruction of the Amala Network >>> Kagatsuchi

And we still have beings like Mem Aleph and YHVH is still above her. 

So unless you two have something better to explain. Don't bother.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 15, 2012)

Also, the video where conception is explained shows universes being destroyed within the span of a few seconds, and also universes being recreated in the span of a few seconds. That's probably the best timeframe we've got, although I could be wrong.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 15, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Also, the video where conception is explained shows universes being destroyed within the span of a few seconds, and also universes being recreated in the span of a few seconds. That's probably the best timeframe we've got, although I could be wrong.



Probably for sake of explanation but doesn't change the vast number of universes being covered or how the system works.


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## Casshern (May 15, 2012)

Never claimed the creating and destroying universes part is false, just the eyeblink part in which I am right unless you bring the screencap proving me wrong.

And I already did a thread about this, so learn to read before you respond.



> Fang: Repeating the same debunked argument? That's adorable, 2/10 for effort.



Someone is mad.


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## Bioness (May 15, 2012)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> And you two have zero retort.
> 
> Pretty much this, all that explanation Kagatsuchi can cover all the Universes explained. YHVH >>> That guy.
> 
> ...



1) I only stated the video had no point
2) Just because people agree does not mean you can group them together while ignoring the rest of their post
3) If you are going to post how about you do something better than nitpicking over what others have to say about an irrelevant video
4) Thanks for explaining the tiers now why not talk about the other 50% of the match (Doctor Whoverse), since it is not the verse against itself but another.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 15, 2012)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Probably for sake of explanation but doesn't change the vast number of universes being covered or how the system works.



True. After all, if we took that video at face value without assuming that there are things happening offscreen, then the Amala Universe would only have about 20 worlds. Not even the most rabid SMT downplayer would argue that.



Casshern said:


> Never claimed the creating and destroying universes part is false, just the eyeblink part in which I am right unless you bring the screencap proving me wrong.
> 
> And I already did a thread about this, so learn to read before you respond.



Nobody never claimed you said that. Stop strawmanning.

There's really not that much difference between saying "destroyed in an eyeblink" and "destroyed in a matter of seconds". Either way, the universes were destroyed in a _very_ short timespan.


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## Casshern (May 15, 2012)

Stop being devils advocate, it does make a difference when it comes to this type of characters.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 15, 2012)

I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm saying what I honestly believe.

It doesn't matter in this case, because either way this feat is far above the Whoniverse.


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## Casshern (May 15, 2012)

I agree, and that is why I said they win.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 15, 2012)

Then why bother contesting it?


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## Bioness (May 15, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Then why bother contesting it?



To make sure it isn't inflated, as many people like to do.


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## Fang (May 15, 2012)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Probably for sake of explanation but doesn't change the vast number of universes being covered or how the system works.



Exactly and such as weaker characters like Mem Alephs' breath shaking through the Schwartzwelt dimensions and creating worlds as large as the actual universe, divided into layers atop and on one another.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 15, 2012)

Can't find the video right now, but IIRC when they're talking about how Aleph/Hijiri got fucked over by The Great Will, they refer to the Amala Universe as infinite.


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## Bioness (May 15, 2012)

What about destruction without the recreation of the universe?

Because and right now I am just talking in general, if a being were unable to destroy without recreating, for whatever reasons, would that still count as destruction and then creation or would that be something else. Because the being is not able to create without destroying and is not able to destroy without then recreating, so there will always be something there.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 15, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Can't find the video right now, but IIRC when they're talking about how Aleph/Hijiri got fucked over by The Great Will, they refer to the Amala Universe as infinite.



It's the last visit before the transformation into a True Demon.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MiUWXGxmv0[/YOUTUBE]


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 15, 2012)

Bioness said:


> What about destruction without the recreation of the universe?
> 
> Because and right now I am just talking in general, if a being were unable to destroy without recreating, for whatever reasons, would that still count as destruction and then creation or would that be something else. Because the being is not able to create without destroying and is not able to destroy without then recreating, so there will always be something there.



Depends on the mechanism. If it's just something that happens automatically, the Multiverse correcting itself, then I guess it would only count towards a destruction feat. No recreation.

However, Kagatsuchi and The Great Will destroy and recreate worlds very much consciously.


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## ThanatoSeraph (May 15, 2012)

Thanks Raidou.


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