# Current Kage and Akatsuki combined Rankings!



## ffleaderman24 (Oct 18, 2013)

Members to be ranked by you-
1.Tsunade
2.A..
3.Gaara.
4.Mei
5.Onoki
6.Hidan
7.Kakuzu
8.Deidara
9.Sasori
10.Kisame
11.Itachi.
12.Konan.
13.Nagato.

This is my Ranking of most powerful to least powerful-

1.Nagato.
2.Itachi.
3.Onoki.
4.Kisame.
5.Ei.
6.Gaara.
7.Deidara.
8.Kakuzu.
9.Mei.
10.Sasori.
11.Tsunade.
12.Konan.
13.Hidan.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 18, 2013)

Nagato
Itachi

Ei
Onoki
Kisame
Deidara

Sasori / kakuzu / Gaara / tsunade(excluding her in a support role) / konan

Mei
Hidan


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 18, 2013)

ffleaderman24 said:


> Members to be ranked by you-
> 1.Tsunade
> 2.A..
> 3.Gaara.
> ...



1. Nagato
2. Itachi
3. Tsunade/Onoki
4. Konan
5. Gaara/A
6. Sasori
7. Kisame/Mei
8. Deidara/Kakuzu
9. Hidan


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## crisler (Oct 18, 2013)

Nagato
Itachi

Onoki
Sasori/Deidara/A/Gaara
Kisame/Mei/Tsunade/Kakuzu

Hidan/Konan


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## FlamingRain (Oct 18, 2013)

ffleaderman24 said:


> Members to be ranked by you-



*1.)* Nagato
*2.)* Itachi
*3.)* Tsunade
*4.)* Ohnoki
*5.)* Ay
*6.)* Sasori
*7.)* Deidara
*8.)* Kisame
*9.)* Gaara
*10.)* Mei
*11.)* Kakuzu
*12.)* Konan
*13.)* Hidan

Tsunade's the best of the current Kages for me, followed very closely by Ohnoki with Ay close behind him, then Gaara followed by Mei; circumstances can shake up the status quo at times, however.

In my opinion, the three oldest Kages are generally somewhat stronger than the 'mid-tier' Akatsuki members (Sasori, Deidara, Kisame, Kakuzu), but still below Itachi and very far below Nagato. Gaara and Mei are pretty much in the middle of the mid-tiers, and I don't believe there's really all that much of a difference between those members of Akatsuki in the first place.


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## Rain (Oct 18, 2013)

Itachi >>

Nagato >>>

Onoki

Ei/Kisame

Sasori/Deidara

Gaara/Konan/Mei/Tsunade

lolhidan


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## The World (Oct 18, 2013)

Sasori above Gaara Konan and Tsunade?

lenope

and lol at Itachi being highest


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 18, 2013)

Kisame's ninjutsu is easily better than mei's IMO, don't see how they'd be in the same tier. The deadlier techniques in her arsenal are only usable in airtight closed areas, fog is useless since she herself is not a sensor and would also be blinded, and her suitons while possessing impressive scale isn't anything that would catch and kill other Kage or higher characters.

Kisame on the other hand has thousand foot shark wave, Waterdome, and Daikodan which can probably eat right through most chakra cloaks and susanoos since it absorbs ninjutsu. If you swap kisame with mei he'd probably beat all 5 susanoo clones and have more chakra than he started with afterward.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 18, 2013)

Not sure why she needs to be in an airtight area because I'm not seeing a reason why her acid should thin outdoors any more than Zabuza's.

Zabuza wasn't a sensor either yet went unhampered by the mist. I doubt she'd be hampered by _Kirigakure no Jutsu_ as the Kage of. . .Kirigakure.

That just seems silly.


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## The World (Oct 18, 2013)

Kisame would destroy Deidara and Sasori

Unless Deidara wisens up and plays the keepaway game


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 18, 2013)

She sealed the area before using her futton style. Vs sasuke*. And never used it out doors vs mads.

Zabuza  was trained in the art of silent killing and the mist fit perfectly with his fighting technique. Mei isn't or hasn't demonstrated to be a silent killer.


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## Bonly (Oct 18, 2013)

Nagato

Itachi/Onoki/A

Kisame/Konan/Tsunade 

Deidara/Sasori/Kakuzu/Gaara

Mei 

Hidan


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## Kai (Oct 18, 2013)

Nagato
Itachi
Onoki
Konan (Paper Ocean)
Orochimaru
Tsunade
A
Kisame
Gaara
Deidara
Kakuzu
Sasori
Mei
Hidan
Zetsu


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## FlamingRain (Oct 18, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> She sealed the area before using her futton style.



So that Sasuke couldn't run away and she wouldn't kill everyone in the other room.

She wouldn't need to worry about them in any 1 on 1 situation.



> And never used it out doors vs mads.



We don't actually know that.

Initially she'd have burned up her teammates, in the Susano'o clone phase we have no idea what she did.



> Zabuza  was trained in the art of silent killing and the mist fit perfectly with his fighting technique. Mei isn't or hasn't demonstrated to be a silent killer.



I'm just saying I think it's silly to expect anybody who isn't a silent killer to use a Jutsu that blocks their own vision.

Some things can just be filled in with common sense, we don't need Kishi to spell _everything_ out for us. The Kage of Kirigakure should be able to use _*Kirigakure* no Jutsu_ without handicapping herself.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 18, 2013)

Regardless of why she sealed the room, physics tells us in a smaller area her futton would be denser per air unit and have greater effect. Naturally it won't be as effective if it is not as dense. And futon style isnt enough to make up for kisame's top tier ninjutsu arsenal anyway.

Concerning the fog, I'm purely going off what was shown.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 18, 2013)

Physics would tell us the same thing about the standard _Kirigakure_ which is used outdoors all the time. Mei can increase the acidity of her mist at any time she chooses, too, so. . .I still don't think she'd be worried about decreased effectiveness outside of a scenario where she was in a team battle.

I'm not trying to place her as Kisame's equal, though.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 18, 2013)

Comprehensive ranking of Akatsuki members and Kage of known ability:

1. Hashirama
2. Minato/Itachi/Pain Rikudou
3. Obito (before Rinnegan)
4. A/3rd Raikage
5. Tobirama
6. Danzou
7. Sasori
8. Deidara
9. Orochimaru
10. Muu/2nd Mizukage
11. Oonoki
12. Yagura
13. Tsunade
14. Kisame
15. Kakuzu
16. 3rd Kazekage
17. Gaara
18. 4th Kazekage
19. Mei/Hiruzen (old)
20. Konan
21. Hidan
22. Zetsu


Red=Akatsuki
Blue=Kage

All characters ranked as they were in their lifetimes; I didn't take into account any of their Edo Tensei counterparts.


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

You can see how I ranked them looking at the Tier List in my sig.


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2013)

No Sauce, Turrin?


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## Garcher (Oct 22, 2013)

How can people rate Nagato over Itachi? After Itachi pretty much solod him? Don't come up with "Nardo and B helped him" Naruto couldn't even handle his summons, Itachi had to oneshot them.  Chibaku Tensei? Killer B and Naruto were helpless, Itachi figured out a counter a strategy meanwhile and contributed much with his Yasaka. Then, Naruto and Killer B were completly helpless against Nagato himself, they got STOMPED. But Itachi blocked his vision with his kunais and then oneshot via Totsuka.

Srsly, how can you rate Nagato over Itachi? Nothing than hate


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 22, 2013)

1 - Hashirama
2 - Itachi / Nagato / Minato
3 - Tobi
4 - Onoki
5 - A
6 - Orochimaru / Deidara
7 - Deidara / Orochimaru
8 - Kisame
9 - Gaara
10 - Tobirama
11 - Sasori
12 - Kakuzu
13 - Mei
14 - Tsunade
15 - Hiruzen
16 - Hidan
17 - Konan
18 - Zetsu


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> No Sauce, Turrin?


Hard to rank Sauce right now, considering we don't know to what extent he can utilize P-Susano'o.

Discounting P-Susano'o he'd be somewhere on History's Most Hax'd-Tier, due to being able to spam his MS Techniques, with EMS.  Also showing some improvement with Susano'o such as the addition of legs. Probably around Tobirama, Itachi, and Nindaime Mizukage's placements.

Though w/ P-Susano'o, especially if it can use Enton Weapons he'd be much higher, if not moved up to the next Tier. 

So his placement is really difficult.


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2013)

Ah...

I have some questions about those rankings....specifically, why is Bee below TrollKage. Why is Edo Itachi below _Danzou_...or better yet, why is Itachi not above everyone in the tier but the first 3..

Why is Sakura above Deidara...and Kakuzu....

Why is Hiruzen so high....if it's hype, then why is Hanzou so low....



Maybe we disagree on alot, but some of those are just wrong...


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 22, 2013)

Based on your provided list:

1) Nagato
2) Itachi 
3) Oonoki
4) Gaara
5) Tsunade
6) Kisame
7) Raikage
8) Sasori
9) Deidara
10) Mei 
11) Konan
12) Hidan

1 & 2 - No explanation needed
3 & 4 - Kishi has gone out of his way to portray Onoki & Gaara moreso then the other kages(besides Tsunade now)
5 & 6 -   Kisame is incredibly strong in his own right and is basically the prefect Jin hunter and Tsuande is quickly moving up on this list
7 - Raikage imo is vastly overrated(along with speed in general)
8 - 13 - Think thats self explanatory

This was not entirely based on who can beat who but moreso an overall package since for example Raikage could beat Tsunade


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## ueharakk (Oct 22, 2013)

1. Nagato
2. Itachi
3. Oonoki
4. Kisame
5. Ei
6. Gaara
7. Sasori
8. Deidara
9. Tsunade
10. Kakuzu
11. Mei
12. Konan (no prep)
13. Hidan

I think 6-10 are likely interchangeable except for Sasori>Deidara.


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Ah...
> I have some questions about those rankings....specifically, why is Bee below TrollKage. .


The way I look at Tiers is that everyone on that Tier probably isn't beating anyone else on that Tier w/o High difficult. Perhaps someone ranked 1st to 3rd (the first 3) might at worst Mid difficult someone ranked 10th to 12th (the last 3), but that is pretty much the largest gap there is on any given Tier, unless we start bringing in uber biased conditions for the match to take place.

So when talking about B who is measly 1 rank bellow Trollkage, that really doesn't say much, other than if I had a gun to my head and someone was like, "Tell me who is more dangerous or your dead meat", than in my panic I'd say Trollkage. However the fact that I only put him 1-rank above shows that I'm not very confident in that assertion and would not be surprised if I was wrong. So being separated by  1-rank or even 3-ranks really should be seen as the most minimal of margins, you can possibly imagine.

In this specific case I give Troll the edge due to his upside-potential. Troll only got to strut his stuff for a few chapters, so it's very possible he's got more tricks in his arsenal we haven't seen. While B on the other hand had tons of chapters to do his thing, so were much more familar with his abilities. This is not to say B couldn't show something new that is very impressive, but to me he upside potential to do so is less than the Trolls at this point. 

So literally that is how small the margin is for how I decided 1-rank different placements.



> Why is Edo Itachi below Danzou...


There are two main reasons I place Itachi on this Tier. Firstly it is because his Edo incarnation allows us to do away with his Sickness and Eyesight issue prevalent in previous incarnations of Itachi. Secondly because of the hax of his Genjutsu; Tsukuyomi, Izanami, Totsuka, etc... 

However Danzo imo is one of the few character that is actually more dangerous Genjutsu wise than Itachi, due to the sheer hax of Koto + Izanagi + (Probably other Basic Sharingan Gen). The dude can literally become invincible, tank anyone's attack, and than re-spawn in their face forcing eye contact for Koto (or other Sharingan-Gen). And the amount of people that are aware Danzo possess Genjutsu this hax are relatively small in comparison and less people are going to expect this type of Genjutsu from someone like Danzo, than the prodigy of the Uchiha Clan Itachi. 

This doesn't seem like a massive gap and it isn't suppose, because again we're talking what a 3-rank difference between the two, so it's a very small margin.

Also with that said I actually think Edo Itachi could beat Danzo as he is well suited to doing so given his tools and knowledge. He's got knowledge of Danzo having Koto, so he'll know to tak precautions to avoid getting caught by it.  His Edo body will protect him from any initial ambush Danzo performs with Izanagi. Once Itachi realized Danzo is using Izanagi, which he should quickly as he has knowledge on Izanagi, than he has the right Jutsu to counteract it; Izanami. He's also proficient with Katon techniques to counter Danzo's Fuuton. And his skill with Sharingan would keep him safe from any other Genjutsu Danzo might try. Granted Itachi would probably do so with high difficult, but whatvs.

So it's not really about match up as I clearly can see it going ether way. It's about the fact that I think Danzo would be the ever so slightly more dangerous shinobi for others to go up against in most situations. Though with only a 3-Rank difference I could easily be wrong.



> or better yet, why is Itachi not above everyone in the tier but the first 3..


Well I just don't see Itachi as quite as dangerous as these other Shinobi and I don't see Itachi as that close to Nagato in strength. Though again relatively speaking were talking a small to at most mid margin of strength difference in all cases.



> Why is Sakura above Deidara...and Kakuzu....


Mostly because of how increasing OP Kishi keeps making Katsuya. And in Deidara's case his own unfathomable stupidity is what keeps him so low on the tier list. If he was less stupid, than he'd be History's Strongest Shinobi Tier considering how OP CO + Edo Tensei is. But unfortunately he's just so dam dumb, he can't even begin to use his power to even 10% of it's efficiency.



> Why is Hiruzen so high....if it's hype, then why is Hanzou so low....


Well it's hype for the specific forms of the character we've actually seen. I.E. the best form of Hiruzen we've seen fight is Edo Old Hiruzen, who has a good deal of hype and some decent feats as well + Edo perks. Yet I'm not counting Prime Hiruzen and his hype, because we've never seen the dude fight in his Prime. The best form of Hanzo we've seen is Edo-Rusty Hanzo, so I'm counting all of Edo-Rusty Hanzo's hype, but i'm not counting the Prime Hanzo hype, since we've never seen Prime Hanzo fight.

Yes it's a bit weird of a system, but I didn't want to throw characters on the list that were just 100% hype, I wanted them to at least have some screen time in battles.



> Maybe we disagree on alot, .


Most of your complaints seem to be about ranks within the same Tier. I don't think that is a major difference in opinion, but only a slight difference in opinion. The biggest difference in opinion is the placement of Itachi, since you think he should be 4th, while I have him as 9th, but really that is only 5-ranks different within the same overall tier. So even that is nothing major. 

And we tend to disagree on a-lot of things in terms of BD match ups and such, so if that is the most major difference in opinion, here I think the Tier list I made manage to be pretty effective and unbiased.



> but some of those are just wrong...


Honestly I don't see any indicate massive gap in opinion here were I think being wrong is an accurate way to describe this, rather difference in opinion is.

I wouldn't say you are wrong if you ranked Itachi 4th instead of 9th, B 10th instead of Mizukage, Kakuzu & Deidara 5th instead of Sakura, etc... Those are trivial differences in opinion to me.


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## LostSelf (Oct 22, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> How can people rate Nagato over Itachi? After Itachi pretty much solod him? Don't come up with "Nardo and B helped him" Naruto couldn't even handle his summons, Itachi had to oneshot them.  Chibaku Tensei? Killer B and Naruto were helpless, Itachi figured out a counter a strategy meanwhile and contributed much with his Yasaka. Then, Naruto and Killer B were completly helpless against Nagato himself, they got STOMPED. But Itachi blocked his vision with his kunais and then oneshot via Totsuka.
> 
> Srsly, how can you rate Nagato over Itachi? Nothing than hate



Rock Lee > Madara.

OT:  Not talking about 1 on 1 matchups, because if we follow this, the only ones that will be surely at the top list are Nagato and Itachi, because they beat the others confortably. The others depends on the matchup.


Nagato
Itachi

Onoki
Ei
Kisame
Deidara
Tsunade
Gaara
Sasori
Kakuzu
Mei
Konan
Hidan


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## Sadgoob (Oct 22, 2013)

Itachi the Best said:


> How can people rate Nagato over Itachi? After Itachi pretty much solod him?



Preach, brother. Preach!


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## Alita (Oct 22, 2013)

ffleaderman24 said:


> Members to be ranked by you-
> 1.Tsunade
> 2.A..
> 3.Gaara.
> ...



My list with 1 being strongest and 16 weakest...

1.Gaara(In a desert and with shukaku.)
2.Nagato
3.Onoki
4.Gaara(In a desert and but without shukaku)
5.4th raikage
6.Itachi
7.Kisame
8.Kakuzu
9.Deidara
10.Tsunade
11.Mei
11.5.Gaara(Not in desert and without shukaku)
12.Sasori
13.Zetsu Army(All at once)
14.Konan
15.Hidan
16.Zetsu army(Individually)


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## Nikushimi (Oct 22, 2013)

Alita54 said:


> My list with 1 being strongest and 16 weakest...
> 
> 1.Gaara(In a desert and with shukaku.)
> 2.Nagato
> ...



Nagato and Itachi curbstomp Gaara no matter where he is.



Turrin said:


> You can see how I ranked them looking at the Tier List in my sig.



Oonoki above Muu? Muu above Itachi? Kinkaku and Ginkaku above Itachi and Killer B?

My sides.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 22, 2013)

Itachi'd take a dump on Danzo anyday.

Not only his  arsenal is more impressive and advanced, and that he is a better shinobi overall, but he has the perfect tool to counter him. He also has Koto, which is probably Danzo's strongest weapon.

Kin&Gin placement cracked me up too


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## Nikushimi (Oct 22, 2013)

I mean, like, _most of the Kage_ would destroy Kinkaku and Ginkaku at the same time.

But guys like Itachi and Killer B?

You gotta be kidding me.

They could literally wipe out both brothers with one attack (Amaterasu/Bijuudama), or just blitz them before they have a chance to transform into V2 (like Darui did).

It's not even close.


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2013)

Nah nah nah, Trollkage > Bee was the best.

Genjutsu reliant Shinobi vs. Perfect Jinchuriki? Joki boi vs. the Hachibi & its Bijuu nukes?


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## Nikushimi (Oct 22, 2013)

I could buy the Trollkage's Genjutsu affecting B if it is constantly being cast through the clam's mist.

But yeah, no way in hell is the Mizukage stronger than B. The whole tentacle spin thing would make his Genjutsu and Jokey Boy completely pointless. Forget Bijuudama.


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## Naiad (Oct 22, 2013)

ffleaderman24 said:


> Members to be ranked by you-
> 1.Tsunade
> 2.A..
> 3.Gaara.
> ...



1.Itachi
2.Nagato
3.Onoki
4.Deidara
5.Tsunade/Kisame
6.A
7.Gaara
8.Kakuzu
9.Sasori
10.Mei
11.Hidan


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

@Nikushimi

You think Itachi > all 9 Bijuu combined you have zero credibility when it comes to ranking the characters.



Rocky said:


> Nah nah nah, Trollkage > Bee was the best.
> 
> Genjutsu reliant Shinobi vs. Perfect Jinchuriki? Joki boi vs. the Hachibi & its Bijuu nukes?


Your idea of Tiers seems nonsensical to me. A character being ranked over another one isn't just about whether that character would beat the other one, it's about how that character would perform against the Shinobi world at large. 

Yes if Hachibi can counter the Clam's Genjutsu, which i'm not sure would work, than Killer B would defeat Mizukage. But that doesn't mean Killer B is necessarily a better Shinobi than Mizukage, it just means he's well suited to taking down the Mizukage. While the Mizukage would be more dangerous against other Shinobi. 

Anyway I responded to you with a indepth post and yet you choose to just be a troll like Niku instead of actually responding to me post


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## Nikushimi (Oct 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> @Nikushimi
> 
> Generic ad hominem red herring.



Classic Turrin.



> Your idea of Tiers seems nonsensical to me. A character being ranked over another one isn't just about whether that character would beat the other one, it's about how that character would perform against the Shinobi world at large.
> 
> Yes if Hachibi can counter the Clam's Genjutsu, which i'm not sure would work, than Killer B would defeat Mizukage. But that doesn't mean Killer B is necessarily a better Shinobi than Mizukage, it just means he's well suited to taking down the Mizukage. While the Mizukage would be more dangerous against other Shinobi.



I agree. And more shinobi would stand better chances against the Mizukage than they would against B.


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Classic Turrin.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. And more shinobi would stand better chances against the Mizukage than they would against B.



Thats your opinion Niku, which has no credibility after your recent assertions


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## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi'd take a dump on Danzo anyday.
> 
> Not only his  arsenal is more impressive and advanced, and that he is a better shinobi overall, but he has the perfect tool to counter him. He also has Koto, which is probably Danzo's strongest weapon.



Itachi can't beat Danzo, that is so far removed from reality it is asinine.

Itachi was only slightly better than Sasuke.
Then Sasuke got MS, and became much stronger.
He went blind in literally one fight, and just barely beat Danzo.

No way in hell could Itachi win.


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 22, 2013)

Nagato/Tobi

Itachi/Oonoki/Sasori/Oro/Tsunade/Kabuto

Zetsu/Raikage/Konan/Deidara/Kakuzu/Kisame/Gaara

Mei/Hidan/Suigetsu/Juugo


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## Jagger (Oct 22, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> Itachi can't beat Danzo, that is so far removed from reality it is asinine.
> 
> Itachi was only slightly better than Sasuke.
> Then Sasuke got MS, and became much stronger.
> ...


I am not really arguing who is winning, but I am going to point out some things.

Depends of which version of Sasuke? MS Sasuke? Then yeah, Itachi is sightly better, but Sasuke still won the fight (Vs. Danzo) fair and square. Hebi Sasuke? He gets detroyed by Itachi.

MS Sasuke isn't that much stronger than Itachi. In fact, I believe they are both around the same level of strength.

Sasuke went blind because he overused the MS techniques like a mad man. He used it against all Kage and their bodyguards and then, finally against Danzo. That is what Sasuke gets for being a reckless person.


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

Jagger said:


> I am not really arguing who is winning, but I am going to point out some things.
> 
> Depends of which version of Sasuke? MS Sasuke? Then yeah, Itachi is sightly better, but Sasuke still won the fight (Vs. Danzo) fair and square. Hebi Sasuke? He gets detroyed by Itachi.
> 
> ...


Sasuke's victory wasn't unfair, because well f fairness in Ninja duels. With that said Danzo wasn't at full power since Koto was recharging and than later when it did charge he was too worried about saving it for Tobi to use it in his duel against Sasuke, until it was too late. So I kind of doubt MS Sasuke would have won against a full power Danzo.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Thats your opinion Niku, which has no credibility after your recent assertions



I haven't asserted Itachi>all 9 Bijuu at once even jokingly since like 2012.

But considering you _still_ think Oonoki has a chance of beating Pain, you probably shouldn't judge.


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## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Jagger said:


> I am not really arguing who is winning, but I am going to point out some things.
> 
> Depends of which version of Sasuke? MS Sasuke? Then yeah, Itachi is sightly better, but Sasuke still won the fight (Vs. Danzo) fair and square. Hebi Sasuke? He gets detroyed by Itachi.
> 
> ...



Hebi sasuke was not destroyed by Itachi! 
It was basically a draw, and the best you can argue is Itachi went easy on him a little.

No, he had to use the MS like a mad man just to win.  It wasn't like he just wasted them!  If he didn't continuously pressured danzo with them, then he would have lost.

It's not even about whether MS Itachi >= MS Sasuke, but who would be a better matchup against Danzo.  Itachi only has a few eye techniques left, before he goes blind.  That won't be enough to hold Danzo at bay for long.


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I haven't asserted Itachi>all 9 Bijuu at once even jokingly since like 2012.
> 
> But considering you _still_ think Oonoki has a chance of beating Pain, you probably shouldn't judge.


I was more talking about you basing your entire ranking system around wanking Itachi, which hasn't change since, well ever. Though it's priceless that even as of 2012 you still thought Itachi could solo 9 Bijuu.

It's even funnier that your implying that Itachi soloing all 9-Bijuu is more reasonable than Onoki having a chance to beat Pain. :rofl


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## Jagger (Oct 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke's victory wasn't unfair, because well f fairness in Ninja duels. With that said Danzo wasn't at full power since Koto was recharging and than later when it did charge he was too worried about saving it for Tobi to use it in his duel against Sasuke, until it was too late. So I kind of doubt MS Sasuke would have won against a full power Danzo.


At full power, Danzo can pretty much beat everyone. It is a haxed technique on the hands of someone with Senju DNA, by removing that temporaly, it give MS Sasuke a fair chance of winning and, as you said, there is no fairness in a ninja duel.



johnsuwey said:


> Hebi sasuke was not destroyed by Itachi!
> It was basically a draw, and the best you can argue is Itachi went easy on him a little.
> 
> No, he had to use the MS like a mad man just to win.  It wasn't like he just wasted them!  If he didn't continuously pressured danzo with them, then he would have lost.
> ...


Hebi Sasuke got destroyed by Itachi. He held back through most of the match and he still countered all of Sasuke's jutsu back then. A little? He could have killed Sasuke easily by the start of the match. 

No, it's because he was reckless. He sneaked inside a Gokage summit full of samurais, Kage and their bodyguards. What does he expect? A walk in the park? He pretty much entered the fire like a mad man driven by revenge and hatred. Itachi had MS for years and he only started to feel heavy after effects around his final fight with Sasuke. Sasuke, in a week or less, was in the same state.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Yes if Hachibi can counter the Clam's Genjutsu, which i'm not sure would work, than Killer B would defeat Mizukage. But that doesn't mean Killer B is necessarily a better Shinobi than Mizukage, it just means he's well suited to taking down the Mizukage. While the Mizukage would be more dangerous against other Shinobi.




Ok then....

How is the Nindaime Mizukage more dangerous than a casual mountain buster. 



> Anyway I responded to you with a indepth post and yet you choose to just be a troll like Niku instead of actually responding to me post




That's because I had nothing to refute. You explained how your list was constructed, and I wasn't really planning on challenging each individual component any further in this thread.


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 22, 2013)

Jagger said:


> At full power, Danzo can pretty much beat everyone. It is a haxed technique on the hands of someone with Senju DNA, by removing that temporaly, it give MS Sasuke a fair chance of winning and, as you said, there is no fairness in a ninja duel.
> 
> 
> Hebi Sasuke got destroyed by Itachi. He held back through most of the match and he still countered all of Sasuke's jutsu back then. A little? He could have killed Sasuke easily by the start of the match.
> ...



You sir are delusional!
That is all there is to it!  DELUSIONAL!

Itachi wankers...



Turrin said:


> I was more talking about you basing your entire ranking system around wanking Itachi, which hasn't change since, well ever. Though it's priceless that even as of 2012 you still thought Itachi could solo 9 Bijuu.
> 
> It's even funnier that your implying that Itachi soloing all 9-Bijuu is more reasonable than Onoki having a chance to beat Pain. :rofl



Onoki would get raped by pain.
*RAPED!*


----------



## Jagger (Oct 22, 2013)

Of course I am a delusional person. Itachi's greatness caused a severe damage in my head.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I was more talking about you basing your entire ranking system around wanking Itachi, which hasn't change since, well ever.



Interesting. What else do you know about me that I don't? 



> Though it's priceless that even as of 2012 you still thought Itachi could solo 9 Bijuu.



The Bijuu didn't really have any feats back then, but I never really did believe that. The main reason Itachi can't kill them all is because it's unlikely he'd be able to sweep a large enough area with Amaterasu to hit them all. And any attempt to use the Totsuka no Tsurugi would only work on one Bijuu at a time, leaving him open to Bijuudama spam from the others.



> It's even funnier that your implying that Itachi soloing all 9-Bijuu is more reasonable than Onoki having a chance to beat Pain. :rofl



It is. That's how bad it is to claim that Oonoki has a chance of beating Pain.


----------



## Mangeykou Byakugan (Oct 22, 2013)

ffleaderman24 said:


> Members to be ranked by you-
> 1.Tsunade
> 2.A..
> 3.Gaara.
> ...



1. Itachi
2.Nagato
3. A
4. Onoki
5. Gaara 
6. Sasori
7.  Kakazu
8.  Deidara
9. Tsunade
10. Kisame
11. Mei
12. Konan
13. Hidan


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 23, 2013)

What kind of nub puts itachi #1?

Wank wank wank


----------



## Mercurial (Oct 23, 2013)

1.Nagato.

2.Itachi.


3.Onoki. / Kisame. / Ei.
6.Gaara. / Deidara. / Kakuzu. / Sasori

10.Konan. / Mei. / Tsunade. / Hidan.


----------



## Gin Ichimaru (Oct 23, 2013)

Itachi/Nagato
Deidara/Onoki (young Onoki > Deidara)
Kisame
A
Sasori/Gaara
Kakuzu
Konan/Mei
Tsunade
Hidan


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 23, 2013)

Nagato/Obito w/o juubi
Onoki/Itachi
Kisame/A/
Tsunade/Deidara/Gaara
Sasori/Kakuzu/Mei
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu

Something like that i guess.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 23, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I mean, like, _most of the Kage_ would destroy Kinkaku and Ginkaku at the same time.
> 
> But guys like Itachi and Killer B?
> 
> ...




You do know why he placed Kin&Gin that high don't you ?
It has nothing to do with their display.

Its because they shit stomped Tobirama. And given Turrin thinks Tobirama is immensely strong(which I whole heartedly disagree with his current feats. Tobirama has been a good support but that is all imo), so Kin&Gin are bound to be immensely strong as well.

I wonder where that leaves Darui.




johnsuwey said:


> Itachi can't beat Danzo, that is so far removed from reality it is asinine.
> 
> Itachi was only slightly better than Sasuke.
> Then Sasuke got MS, and became much stronger.
> ...



Awww, I wish I could have negged him before he got banned


----------



## Jad (Oct 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Awww, I wish I could have negged him before he got banned



Whoever banned him is a genuis. He had it coming.

Anyways, I never viewed Tobirama to be above Minato. I do think Tobirama is smarter and more intelligent then Minto though. But Minato has those extra added benefits to his FTG.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Ok then....
> 
> How is the Nindaime Mizukage more dangerous than a casual mountain buster.


If someone lacks a counter to the Clam's Genjutsu and has to deal with the mirage effect, while trying to fight. That is more dangerous than having to deal with B's level of Tailed Beast Bomb. For example we saw Suigetsu save Team Taka from a TBB by throwing B's aim off. Would Suigetsu be able to do anything about the Clam's Genjutsu, probably not. We've seen Ino  re-directed the Juubi's TBB w/ Mind-Transfer, but she wouldn't be able to do anything against the Mist. We've seen Base Minato casually deflect a TBB, however the Clam's mist would be much more difficult for Base Minato to deal with; the same could be said for Tobirama. 

Simply put if someone gets stuck in the mist most  are going to be ether done for or they are going to have incredibly tough time. However if someone goes up TBB they have a better shot of living through it and a better shot of doing so w/o a massive degree of effort.

Or if you want to talk specifically how Killer B would perform against mutual opponents versus the Mizukage. Let's take a look at how they'd perform in matches against characters on History's Most Hax'd Tier. 

Yakushi Kabuto - I think we can agree both would probably loose here as nether is likely to be able to kill Kabuto before Edo Tensei can get summoned. But at least in Mizukage's case there is a chance he could be effective here depending on through which sense the Mist effects the victim. If it works through a sense other than sight, than Kabuto's Genjutsu-defense won't work. In that case Mizukage may have a chance to pull this out if he hits Kabuto hard and fast with Joki Boi he won't see coming, before Kabuto is able to summon his Edo Tensei. Also if anyone were to pull out a new technique that could be useful here, Mizukage is more likely to do so, as per what I talked about in my original post about his upside potential.

Orocohimaru - Pretty much the same as above 

Nagato - Both are probably screwed here, but if Rinnegan can't see through the Mist, again Mizukage at least has a chance if he hits Nagato hard and fast enough, before Nagato resorts to just nuking the entire area with CST/CT.  Also if anyone were to pull out a new technique that could be useful here, Mizukage is more likely to do so, as per what I talked about in my original post about his upside potential.

Onoki - Mizukage went up against a similar shinobi to Onoki and manage to force a draw. The Mist would also be a pretty big threat for Onoki . On the other hand I don't think Onoki has much to fear from B. B's Base, V1, and V2 forms can't even hit flying Onoki, so he'd be forced into Full Hachibi. Onoki would actually make quick work of Full Hachibi, since Hachibi is such an easy target for weight alteration. Onoki can reduce Hachibi's weight to nothing and than just play volley ball with him or increase Hachibi's weight to the point where he can't just Jinton immobile Hachibi. 

Mu - Mizukage managed to draw with him. So Mizukage should be seen a large threat for Mu. On the other hand B has no way to see through Mu's invis and no knowledge of it, which immediately means Mu could easily merk B in a number of situations, battlefields, etc.. Overall B  just seems like the less threatening enemy for Mu, because of this.

Danzo - Both would probably loose to Koto, but at least in Mizukage's case if Sharingan can't see through the Mist, than Mizukage would have a chance to win. And again I'd cite the upside potential. Side-not now that im  I'm thinking about it Danzo should probably be above Onoki and Mu/
Gin & Kin - Clam Genjutsu would prove effective against them, which to me immediately Mizukage more dangerous than B against. Especially since I have absolutely no faith in B's ability to navigate through the word-game, even if Hachibi has knowledge on the tools, I still B would be the easiest person in the manga to trick with Word-games. 

Tobirama - I think in both cases they would put up a good fight against Tobirama, but we've seen Tobirama deal with raw power of a Tailed beast pretty efficiently in this fight against Obito, on the other hand Mizukage's Genjutsu block Tobirama's sensing and disorienting him seems a bit more dangerous to me. And again there is the upside potential as well as Mizukage being likely to have more knowledge on Tobirama's capabilities.

Itachi - Here I suppose who would do better comes down to whether Sharingan can see through the Clam's Genjutsu or not. So here B might managed to do a  better if Sharingan can't see through Clam's Genjutsu. Though one must also keep in mind B is much more well specifically well suited to facing Itachi, with his high order Genjutsu defense via Hachibi and having a great deal of knowledge on Itachi's arsenal 

Than if we go up to History's strongest Shinobi Tier. At least the Clam's Mist might be able to f with these shinobi a bit and create openings for teammates and the like. While B's raw power is kind of meaningless against these shinobi and would simply get thrown back at him. 

So yeah in most cases I see Mizukage being more dangerous than B, if only slightly. Mostly due to how Hax the Mist is. 



> That's because I had nothing to refute. You explained how your list was constructed, and I wasn't really planning on challenging each individual component any further in this thread.


Yet your proceeded to do just that.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 23, 2013)

I don't have a bunch of time, so I'll just address the meat & potatoes for now...




Turrin said:


> Yakushi Kabuto - I think we can agree both would probably loose here as nether is likely to be able to kill Kabuto before Edo Tensei can get summoned.
> 
> Orocohimaru - Pretty much the same as above




Yes, Edo Tensei ends both of these Shinobi. Neither has any chance whatsoever. 



> Nagato - Both are probably screwed here, but if Rinnegan can't see through the Mist, again Mizukage at least has a chance if he hits Nagato hard and fast enough, before Nagato resorts to just nuking the entire area with CST/CT.  Also if anyone were to pull out a new technique that could be useful here, Mizukage is more likely to do so, as per what I talked about in my original post about his upside potential.




Nagato just BT~Soul Rips the Mizukage before the Clam even comes out.



> Onoki - Mizukage went up against a similar shinobi to Onoki and manage to force a draw. The Mist would also be a pretty big threat for Onoki . On the other hand I don't think Onoki has much to fear from B. B's Base, V1, and V2 forms can't even hit flying Onoki, so he'd be forced into Full Hachibi. Onoki would actually make quick work of Full Hachibi, since Hachibi is such an easy target for weight alteration. Onoki can reduce Hachibi's weight to nothing and than just play volley ball with him or increase Hachibi's weight to the point where he can't just Jinton immobile Hachibi.




I thought it was you that argued that Onoki covers his flanks with clones when he cannot locate an enemy, and would just raze the area with Jinton.  If Onoki does that, how is a stationary clam problematic for him?

Bee on the other hand comes down to Samehada vs. Jinton.



> Mu - Mizukage managed to draw with him. So Mizukage should be seen a large threat for Mu. On the other hand B has no way to see through Mu's invis and no knowledge of it, which immediately means Mu could easily merk B in a number of situations, battlefields, etc.. Overall B  just seems like the less threatening enemy for Mu, because of this.




I agree. Bad match-up for Bee.



> Danzo - Both would probably loose to Koto, but at least in Mizukage's case if Sharingan can't see through the Mist, than Mizukage would have a chance to win. And again I'd cite the upside potential. Side-not now that im  I'm thinking about it Danzo should probably be above Onoki and Mu/
> Gin & Kin - Clam Genjutsu would prove effective against them, which to me immediately Mizukage more dangerous than B against. Especially since I have absolutely no faith in B's ability to navigate through the word-game, even if Hachibi has knowledge on the tools, I still B would be the easiest person in the manga to trick with Word-games.




The Sharingan can see through illusions...so it can see through the mist.

Other other hand, Bee _might_ be able to break Koto Amatsukami as Continuous Genjutsu canonically doesn't work on him.

Neither can defeat Kinkaku or Ginkaku if they have no knowledge on the sacred treasures. But if they do have knowledge, Bee nukes without speaking....



> Tobirama - I think in both cases they would put up a good fight against Tobirama, but we've seen Tobirama deal with raw power of a Tailed beast pretty efficiently in this fight against Obito, on the other hand Mizukage's Genjutsu block Tobirama's sensing and disorienting him seems a bit more dangerous to me. And again there is the upside potential as well as Mizukage being likely to have more knowledge on Tobirama's capabilities.




Tobirama's sensing should allow him to locate the Mizukage, no?




> Itachi - Here I suppose who would do better comes down to whether Sharingan can see through the Clam's Genjutsu or not. So here B might managed to do a  better if Sharingan can't see through Clam's Genjutsu. Though one must also keep in mind B is much more well specifically well suited to facing Itachi, with his high order Genjutsu defense via Hachibi and having a great deal of knowledge on Itachi's arsenal




Itachi should casually break the Mizukage's illusion with the Sharingan.


----------



## Alita (Oct 23, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Nagato and Itachi curbstomp Gaara no matter where he is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Itachi isn't beating gaara in a desert. All he has to do is drop a several hundred meter+ tsunami of sand on itachi then proceed to bury him hundreds of meters below the earth where he suffocates to death. Blocking with susano won't stop that process from happening. Gaara vs nagato in a desert is debatable IMO since nagato will be very limited fighting Gaara in a location like that. But if gaara has shukaku I can't see him losing since he can just spam bijuudama on nagato and nagato has never shown to be able to absorb something that powerful.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Oct 23, 2013)

Onoki is close to the Sannin in power and in how he's been presented , he could give Pain a run if he has adequate knowledge , with no Knowledge in Jiriyia's scenario I could see him destroying 2-3 like Jiriyia did


Bee is around Kakashi , Gai, Kisame level he's often overestimated by the forums, most like to place him above the Sannin and even close to people like Minato and Nagato as for how he compares to Trollkage they are probably in the same general tier both solid Kage level fighters that would be worthy of the posisition, Muu and Trollkage were indicated to be around the same level of strength shit I believe all four Edo Hokage were close in power 
with Muu probably being the strongest slightly but not on another tier,

 Onoki has been portrayed as being stronger than Muu usually when two characters share a common jutsu the younger character always expands it and makes it more powerful , Kabuto w Edo Tensei, Minato with FTG, Naruto with Senjutsu, 


Kin/Gin aren't very powerful shinobi look who took them out and what characters they were facing the powerful Edo Tensei were taken out by the elite Kage level fighters like Naruto Gaara, Onoki , Itachi

Kin/Gin could be Elite Jounin/low Kage level very formidable but no way are they above Sannin , Hiruzen, Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest of the Gokage.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Oct 23, 2013)

Alita54 said:


> Itachi isn't beating gaara in a desert. All he has to do is drop a several hundred meter+ tsunami of sand on itachi then proceed to bury him hundreds of meters below the earth where he suffocates to death. Blocking with susano won't stop that process from happening. Gaara vs nagato in a desert is debatable IMO since nagato will be very limited fighting Gaara in a location like that. But if gaara has shukaku I can't see him losing since he can just spam bijuudama on nagato and nagato has never shown to be able to absorb something that powerful.



depends on which Itachi , if it's Edo Itachi he could spam Long Range Susanoo Attacks and create and opening just long enough to use totsuka , if it's sick Itachi that faced Sasuke, his only hope is genjutsu but I haven't seen any formidable Kage level character being defeated by genjutsu , so after that Itachi can only keep up Susanoo for so long before he's ultimately crushed.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yes, Edo Tensei ends both of these Shinobi. Neither has any chance whatsoever.


A'ight



> Nagato just BT~Soul Rips the Mizukage before the Clam even comes out.


This could happen, but ultimately it would depend on; Location, Starting Distance, and what move Nagato decided to pull out first. It only takes a brief instance to summon the clam after-all. 



> I thought it was you that argued that Onoki covers his flanks with clones when he cannot locate an enemy, and would just raze the area with Jinton.  If Onoki does that, how is a stationary clam problematic for him?


Sure, which is why I tend to think Onoki could win. However having to  maintain Iwabushin to cover his flanks and take p shots with Jinton till he hits the clam or Mizukage, sound a-lot more effort put in than against B. Also one should bare in mind that Onoki is more naturally well suited to face Mizukage than B, due to his knowledge of Mizukage's Jutsu, yet I still think he'd have more difficulty than against B.



> Bee on the other hand comes down to Samehada vs. Jinton.


I don't believe Samehada can absorb Jinton or at the very least can't w/o destroying itself.



> The Sharingan can see through illusions...so it can see through the mist


Well there are couple issue with this:

Sharingan can see break illusions, but the Uchiha in question has to actually realize they are in a Genjutsu to know to break it. For example it took time for Sasuke to see through Shi's Genjutsu:
*MAXIMUM combined bijuudama*
*MAXIMUM combined bijuudama*

In this case it took enough time for Ei and Darui to get in close and launch their attack:
*MAXIMUM combined bijuudama*

Also from a common-sense and mechanics stand-point  we should assume that Mizukage's Genjutsu is going to take more time to be seen through than Shi's. Such as when Sasuke went up against a more advance Genjutsu user like Itachi and it took him even more time to see through Itachi's illusions than Shi's. Or an even more relevant example would be when Sasuke caught  Danzo in Genjutsu.

So 1 problem is that Clam's Genjutsu could still trick Sharingan users long enough for Mizukage to launch a fatal attack. 

However the second problem is the more important issue. This problem is that it seems like the Clam's Genjutsu is constantly effecting people so long as the mist is in place. Meaning that if the Sharingan breaks the illusion, it won't matter because as long as the mist is in place, they'd just get instantly caught by the illusion again.

And really this has to be how the Clam's illusion works, for the manga to make sense, otherwise the alliance members would have just broken each other out, through the partner method, instead of continuing to struggle against the illusion. The only explanation for the partner (or even kai method) not working is that it would be pointless as, as soon as someone broke out they'd be caught in the illusion again.

So I don't think Sharingan would really work against the Clam.



> Other other hand, Bee might be able to break Koto Amatsukami as Continuous Genjutsu canonically doesn't work on him.


I kind of doubt B can break Koto. I mean Yagura was a perfect-jin and couldn't break out of a Genjutsu which AO compared to Koto.



> Neither can defeat Kinkaku or Ginkaku if they have no knowledge on the sacred treasures. But if they do have knowledge, Bee nukes without speaking....


Well actually Mizukage has a chance because the brothers won't be able to hit him with the rope of clarity with the Clam's Genjutsu in place. Granted Amber-Sealing Pot could still defeat him and so could 2 KN6 at the same time. But at least he has a better chance than B.



> Tobirama's sensing should allow him to locate the Mizukage, no?


Sensing doesn't work when the clam's Genjutsu was in place:
*MAXIMUM combined bijuudama*



> Itachi should casually break the Mizukage's illusion with the Sharingan.


See my above thoughts on Sharingan vs Clam Genjutsu.



Eliyua23 said:


> Kin/Gin aren't very powerful shinobi look who took them out and what characters they were facing the powerful Edo Tensei were taken out by the elite Kage level fighters like Naruto Gaara, Onoki , Itachi


Yo do realize even Obito w/ Juubi would have been taken out by Amber Sealing Jar + Ino + back up, considering Ino managed to mind-transfer Obito. It's literally one of the most hax'd out combos int he manga.


----------



## jacobsmith (Oct 23, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Onoki is close to the Sannin in power and in how he's been presented , he could give Pain a run if he has adequate knowledge , with no Knowledge in Jiriyia's scenario I could see him destroying 2-3 like Jiriyia did
> 
> 
> Bee is around Kakashi , Gai, Kisame level he's often overestimated by the forums, most like to place him above the Sannin and even close to people like Minato and Nagato as for how he compares to Trollkage they are probably in the same general tier both solid Kage level fighters that would be worthy of the posisition, Muu and Trollkage were indicated to be around the same level of strength shit I believe all four Edo Hokage were close in power
> ...



Bee would stomp kakashi.
Don't you remember what happened to Sasuke?


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 23, 2013)

Gaara is not beating nagato desert or not. Sensing+Flight trolls all sneak quicksand/tsunami attempts, sensing+preta path trolls all small scale sand crushing attempts. Forget CT it would only really take some beefed up ST to end gaara and if it comes down to stamina well....i would just go with nagato.

Raping konoha, fighting naruto on a tailed beast level scale but not trying to kill him and reviving everyone in the village to the point of his hair turning white trumps anything gaara has in terms of stamina. Does not help that gaara lost a big part of his stamina hype in Pt 2(shukaku).


----------



## jacobsmith (Oct 23, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Gaara is not beating nagato desert or not. Sensing+Flight trolls all sneak quicksand/tsunami attempts, sensing+preta path trolls all small scale sand crushing attempts. Forget CT it would only really take some beefed up ST to end gaara and if it comes down to stamina well....i would just go with nagato.
> 
> Raping konoha, fighting naruto on a tailed beast level scale but not trying to kill him and reviving everyone in the village to the point of his hair turning white trumps anything gaara has in terms of stamina. Does not help that gaara lost a big part of his stamina hype in Pt 2(shukaku).



Not really any evidence that bijuu bestowed stamina as far as I know.


----------



## Shizune (Oct 23, 2013)

ffleaderman24 said:


> Members to be ranked by you-
> 1.Tsunade
> 2.A..
> 3.Gaara.
> ...



Nagato / Itachi
Oonoki / Deidara
A / Tsunade
Mei / Gaara
Kisame / Sasori / Kakuzu / Konan
Hidan


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 23, 2013)

jacobsmith said:


> Not really any evidence that bijuu bestowed stamina as far as I know.



Having a bijuu inside you to collect and give you chakra is basically bestowing you with chakra.

When killer bee said he was out of chakra at one point he got more from the hachibi to do a technique. *this rasengan.*

This would be impossible without a bijuu inside of you.


----------



## jacobsmith (Oct 23, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Having a bijuu inside you to collect and give you chakra is basically bestowing you with chakra.
> 
> When killer bee said he was out of chakra at one point he got more from the hachibi to do a technique. *this rasengan.*
> 
> This would be impossible without a bijuu inside of you.



Is there any evidence the seal used on Gaara worked that way though?  
He was also not on friendly terms with his bijuu.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Oct 23, 2013)

*added a ''numerical ranking'' in compliance w/ OP'er...*

*
Nagato


Itachi/Oonoki/Sasori/Tsunade


Raikage/Konan/Deidara/Kakuzu/Kisame/Gaara


Mei/Hidan

_____________________________________________
1-13

-Nagato
-Itachi
-Sasori
-Ooonoki
-Kisame
-Ei
-Deidara
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Konan
-Kakuzu
-Hidan
-Mei*


----------



## Eliyua23 (Oct 23, 2013)

Turrin said:


> A'ight
> 
> 
> This could happen, but ultimately it would depend on; Location, Starting Distance, and what move Nagato decided to pull out first. It only takes a brief instance to summon the clam after-all.
> ...




But he wasnt though , Madara was almost killed by Naruto, Gaara, Onoki, and they lost mainly because of lack of intelligence , they were both outsmarted by Darui with intricate knowledge of the tools, they have brute strength but so do characters like Deidara, Kisame they kind of give me a similar vibe, the brute, henchman those guys possess raw physical prowess but are severly lacking in the battle intelligence department, and I just dont think kishi would have Kabuto summon his big guns here only to be defated by elite jounin caliber shinobi.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 23, 2013)

jacobsmith said:


> Is there any evidence the seal used on Gaara worked that way though?
> He was also not on friendly terms with his bijuu.



Well a seal would hinder the bijuu's ability to give out chakra as seen here *this rasengan.*. But shikaku if he really wanted to should be able to leak out chakra to gaara like kurama did with naruto in the past despite being sealed.

Not being on friendly terms with his bijuu is the important thing and for that reason alone gaara would not just be able to say "hey give me some chakra bro". Perfect jinchuriki>>>>>>>>>non perfect jinchuriki imo. At this point in the manga if you are a jin of the bijuu 1-9 and are not perfect you are not impressive. I am sure you agree. 

Just for the record in that post where i brought up shikaku it was a "what if" scenario on if he was a perfect jin. Beginning of part 2 gaara in a desert would be destroyed by nagato.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Oct 23, 2013)

jacobsmith said:


> Bee would stomp kakashi.
> Don't you remember what happened to Sasuke?



Theres nothing to suggest Bee would stomp Kakashi, 

against similar opponents 

Kakashi did much better against his first encounter with the Rinnegan

Kakashi was said to be able to match Kisame, Kisame could hold his own with Bee

Killer Bee defeated a Sasuke that at the time was probably a good deal weaker than Sasuke as he was just developing his MS, 

Kakashi best feats stack up against Killer Bee best feats, they got similar treatment along with Gai as playing a supportive role to Naruto against Obito, Bee shined against the jinchuriki while Kakashi shined against Obito 

everything stacks up to them being very formidable kage level shinobi but just below the likes of Itachi , Sannin, Sage Mode Naruto


----------



## jacobsmith (Oct 23, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Theres nothing to suggest Bee would stomp Kakashi,
> 
> against similar opponents
> 
> ...



Kakuzu stomped Kakashi.
Bee stomped Sasuke.
Bee would stomp Kakashi!  We are talking no Bijuu too!  

Sorry, outside of kamui Kakashi just isn't anywhere near as impressive as people seem to think.


----------



## jacobsmith (Oct 23, 2013)

Itachi, not more itachi wank.  Fucker was on his death bed, and you guys want to make him a god, and equal to the sannin or sage mode naruto. 

Sage mode nartuo would decimate Itachi so hard it isn't even fucking funny.


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## ATastyMuffin (Oct 23, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> most like to place him above the Sannin and even close to people like Minato and Nagato as for



That's because he is way above the Sannin. Tell me, what the fuck can Orochimaru or Jiraiya do when Bee transforms into his fully-formed Tailed Beast in a nigh-instantaneous manner as per this circumstance and blows the fuck up out of the individual Sannin?

Nothing, that's what. Orochimaru isn't nearly fast enough to avoid the blast; his Rashomon Gates are _no_ answer to an attack of that scale. Jiraiya needs to charge his Sage Mode and a mountain-busting Gyuki isn't at all permitting him to do so, Tsunade can't inflict damage without getting within close-range and subsequently vaporized with her relatively slow speed, and Katsuyu will be rendered useless with a Tailed Beast Bomb that spans multiple kilometers in diameter.

Heck, I'd argue Bee can take all three on simultaneously.



> how he compares to Trollkage they are probably in the same general tier both solid Kage level fighters that would be worthy of the posisition,



No, the clam will be smithereens and meaningless once the Eight-Tails' whirlwind spin comes into play. From there, it's a game of cat-and-mouse.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 23, 2013)

Yeah bee is just one of the strongest shinobi in the verse being the perfect jin of the eight tails. Even kishimoto in a interview said he planned for bee to be one of the strongest shinobi in the series.

Him being stronger than the sannin is not far-fetched despite their portrayal(though the only thing they would have over him is experience) . Only oro with edo tensei could stop him.


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## jacobsmith (Oct 23, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Yeah bee is just one of the strongest shinobi in the verse being the perfect jin of the eight tails. Even kishimoto in a interview said he planned for bee to be one of the strongest shinobi in the series.
> 
> Him being stronger than the sannin is not far-fetched despite their portrayal(though the only thing they would have over him is experience) . Only oro with edo tensei could stop him.



Idk, I wouldn't underestimate Jiraiya in sage mode with ma and pa, but he would probably need to start in sage mode.  Well unless Bee didn't take him seriously enough, in which case clones could buy him the time.


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## Senjuclan (Oct 23, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I don't believe Samehada can absorb Jinton or at the very least can't w/o destroying itself..



Jinton is just chakra, nothing more. We know Justus that absorb chakra can absorb jinton. Why would Jinton destroy samehada when preta can nullify it. The basic mechanics of preta and samehada are the same




Turrin said:


> Sensing doesn't work when the clam's Genjutsu was in place:
> as per this circumstance.



While sensing does not work on the genjutsu, tobirama can locate the clam and thy mizukage by using his finger tracking ability


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 24, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Jinton is just chakra, nothing more.


no, its a nature transformation/ninjutsu


> [] We know Justus that absorb chakra can absorb jinton. Why would Jinton destroy samehada when preta can nullify it. *The basic mechanics of preta and samehada are the same*



 I'm so defeated by this mess


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## ueharakk (Oct 24, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Jinton is just chakra, nothing more. We know Justus that absorb chakra can absorb jinton. Why would Jinton destroy samehada when preta can nullify it. The basic mechanics of preta and samehada are the same


to expand on what deidara lotto said, its not only not just chakra, but chakra transformed into a ninjutsu, but it's a ninjutsu that creates three dimensional objects that eat away at things like ribcage susanoo nigh-isntantly.  

Samehada was bothered by absorbing a katon and it got a hole punched into it from getting hit by a much offensively weaker attack than a jinton laser.  It'll absorb an insignificant amount of jinton while taking the majority of the attack's power which results in the sword's death.

Preta is completely different in it's absorbing abilities than samehada.  Just compare samehada vs lariat and preta vs lariat.  Preta made it so nagato took zero damage from that technique, samehada and its user got a big hole punched into them.  Preta has gone up against extremely potent attacks like FRS/jinton and absorbed them without problems, the only jutsu samehada has ever absorbed without damage was..... nothing.


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## Turrin (Oct 24, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> But he wasnt though , Madara was almost killed by Naruto, Gaara, Onoki, and they lost mainly because of lack of intelligence , they were both outsmarted by Darui with intricate knowledge of the tools, they have brute strength but so do characters like Deidara, Kisame they kind of give me a similar vibe, the brute, henchman those guys possess raw physical prowess but are severly lacking in the battle intelligence department, and I just dont think kishi would have Kabuto summon his big guns here only to be defated by elite jounin caliber shinobi.


It didn't happen because they didn't have the Kusa Joheki in their possession anymore. However we know from it's mechanics that Obito would have lost in that instance if they did have it. So based on your logic Obito would also not be up to the level of other Edo Kages.

Darui did not out smart them. Darui got lucky that his favorite word switched which created an opening for him. Otherwise he would have been finished. And if the brothers had Amber Sealing Pot he wouldn't have even gotten that far. No one seems to give Gin & Kin any leeway for the fact that they were lacking one of their strongest weapons. Every other Tensei gets leeway for lacking tools they had when alive, but not Gin&Kin. 

And I know your going to come at me with the fact that your talking portrayal, but your looking at Gin&Kin's portrayal from an incredibly narrow view-point. You are only looking at the individual level of the shinobi who fought Gin&Kin, while not taking into account anything else. Your not taking into account:

- the collective strength of those shinobi combined w/ the Amber-Sealing Jar
- Darui's own type advantage (his favorite word switching so easily)
- the amount of intel these shinobi had on Gin&Kin
- the fact that the most brilliant mind in the manga (Shikaku) using this intel specifically crafted and strategy for the alliance to win & hand-select the best shinobi out of 2 entire divisions to pull off said strategy
- Kishi handicapping Gin&Kin by turning one of their strongest weapons against them

These are all factors that are important to understanding how the alliance managed to defeat Gin & Kin. 

On the other hand simply saying well the strongest person there was an Elite Jonin, so they have to be around elite-jonin level, is a completely illogical way to look at portrayal. Is Sasori only around the same level as over the hill Chiyo-baa, because she was the strongest character present in Sasori vs Sakura and Chiyo. Is Nagato only as strong as Pain Arc Naruto, because he was the strongest one around during Nagato's fight against Konoha. Is Juubiobito only as strong as BSM Naruto, because he was the strongest around in that fight. And the list goes on. This type of logic tells us nothing credible.

On-top of that you speak towards portrayal, but what about their success against Tobirama, Ei find their presence more threatening than his fathers, and them being the only Edos besides Mu that the alliance seriously discussed the threat of; baring in mind in the case of these last 2 things the alliance had knowledge that they were lacking one of their strongest weapons (Amber sealing pot) and still considered them that dangerous. The narrow view of portrayal you have asserted ignores all of this

As for where Kabuto summons his big-guns. There was not a single panel where Kabuto expressed any of his thoughts on tactics that would lead us to believe he was only going to send his best Edos against a certain division. So this is not an actual portrayal from the manga, this is you creating a non-existent portrayal by fabricating a fanficition for what Kabuto's strategy was. 

We have no clue what Kabuto's strategy was and there are plenty of tactics that one can employ in a large scale conflict beyond something as simplistic as hey let's send our strongest against their strongest, logic. 

I mean come on dude, your faulting them for:

-Losing to a combo that could have defeated Rinnegan Obito
-The fact that Kabuto had them advance in a certain direction towards the alliance

This is just silly.


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## jacobsmith (Oct 24, 2013)

Darui surviving that fight was akin to you or I winning the lottery without even purchasing a god damn ticket.   Ok, that's just how much dumb luck plot no jutsu was involved there.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 24, 2013)

1. Itachi/Pain
2. Oonoki
3. Kisame
4. Sasori
5. Deidara
6. Tsunade
7. Ei/Gaara/Mei
8. Kakuzu
9. Hidan/Konan


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 24, 2013)

> That's because he is way above the Sannin. Tell me, what the fuck can Orochimaru or Jiraiya do when Bee transforms into his fully-formed Tailed Beast in a nigh-instantaneous manner as per this circumstance and blows the fuck up out of the individual Sannin?



Jiriyia handled the KN4 in base ,Orochimaru went head up with KN4 on his death bed , Sage Mode gives Jiriyia strength surpassing Tsunade/Raikage, Orochimaru could just summon Hashirama, and suppress the 8 tails, 3rd Raikage who is weaker than Jiriyia and Orochimaru went head to head against 8 tails by himself , Hachibi isn't as big a deal as you think. 



> Nothing, that's what. Orochimaru isn't nearly fast enough to avoid the blast; his Rashomon Gates are _no_ answer to an attack of that scale. Jiraiya needs to charge his Sage Mode and a mountain-busting Gyuki isn't at all permitting him to do so, Tsunade can't inflict damage without getting within close-range and subsequently vaporized with her relatively slow speed, and Katsuyu will be rendered useless with a Tailed Beast Bomb that spans multiple kilometers in diameter.



Hydra Mode, Edo Tensei, like I said he went up against KN4 in his weakened state, Jiriyia faced KN4 in base , Sage Mode gives him strength comparable to a tailed beast , did you see what Sage Mode Naruto did to Kurama who is much stronger than Hachibi, Jiriyia did much better against the Rinnegan than did Bee, Orochimaru hasn't even shown his full strength and is near invincible , the only technique that have been shown to be effective against him are Ethereal attacks which Bee doesn't have , as far as Tsunade this is a woman that has survived being split in half and the size of Katsuya she can summon was enough to survive a S/T and there's confirmation she can summon even a larger size of Katusya, but it doesn't matter anyway because Tsunade is mainly ahead of Bee because of her support abilities   




> Heck, I'd argue Bee can take all three on simultaneously.[/COLOR]



This is seriously overrating Bee , All 3 even Minato, Hashirama , Kabuto couldn't take on all 3 Sannin and they are a good deal stronger than Bee




> No, the clam will be smithereens and meaningless once the Eight-Tails' whirlwind spin comes into play. From there, it's a game of cat-and-mouse.
> [




he's got to be able to see the Clam and that's the issue


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## Lana Del Rey (Oct 24, 2013)

My List.

1.Nagato
2.Onoki
3.Itachi
4.Kisame
5.Deidara
6.A
7.Gaara
8.Kakuzu
9.Tsunade
10.Sasori
11.Mei
12.Konan
13.Hidan


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## jacobsmith (Oct 24, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> 1. Itachi/Pain
> 2. Oonoki
> 3. Kisame
> 4. Sasori
> ...



Itachi = Pain?  Are you high?


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## Jagger (Oct 24, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> he could give Pain a run if he has adequate knowledge


No, he really wouldn't.


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## Kazekage94 (Oct 24, 2013)

Idk why people are putting Tsunade above Gaara when Gaara can beat Tsunade


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## jacobsmith (Oct 24, 2013)

Kazekage94 said:


> Idk why people are putting Tsunade above Gaara when Gaara can beat Tsunade



Gaara can beat a lot of people.
His flight + massive ground assaults make him an insanely powerful.  
The guy has almost no weaknesses!

The best one I hear is when people bring up the area isn't desert.
I mean, it's like we didn't see him create a desert or anything...


*He is grossly underestimated!  
*


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 24, 2013)

Kazekage94 said:


> Idk why people are putting Tsunade above Gaara when Gaara can beat Tsunade



Because she is a superior shinobi, irrelevant of their specific/direct match-up.

they aren't the only 2 characters in the 'verse.


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## Rob (Oct 24, 2013)

@Eliyua 

I'm sorry but... how exactly does Kisame lose to Gaara?


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 24, 2013)

RobLucciRapes said:


> @Eliyua
> 
> I'm sorry but... how exactly does Kisame lose to Gaara?



where did I say that, their both around the same tier solid kage level Shinobi matter of fact I would even favor Kisame due to Suiton slowing down the Sand


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## Rob (Oct 24, 2013)

Gaara was above Kisame on your list on te first page.


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## Turrin (Oct 24, 2013)

RobLucciRapes said:


> @Eliyua
> 
> I'm sorry but... how exactly does Kisame lose to Gaara?


Gaara is well suited to taking on Kisame. Flight would allow Gaara to stay outside of Kisame's attack range and Samehada can't absorb the sand, because Gaara's sand is well actual Sand, rather than a chakra construct. So I'm pretty sure Gaara would indeed beat Kisame.

Not that the winner of Gaara vs Kisame, should be the sole factor in discussion a person's tier placement tho. But I do think Gaara is ever so slightly more deadly shinobi than Kisame.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 25, 2013)

jacobsmith said:


> Itachi = Pain?  Are you high?



I know, right?  My list:


1. 
-
2. Hashirama
-
3. Nagato
-
4. Tobirama
4. Minato
5. Pain
-
6. Tobi
7. Sasuke
8. Mū
9. Ōnoki
10. Kisame
-
11. Deidara
12. Orochimaru
-
13. 2nd Mizukage
14. Gaara
15. 3rd Raikage
16. Mei
-
17. A
18. Kakuzu
19. Tsunade
20. Sasori
-
21. Hiruzen
22. Konan
23. Mifune
24. Hidan
-
25. Jugō
26. Suigetsu
-
27. Zetsu
-
28. Karen


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## Baroxio (Oct 25, 2013)

I would like to inquire into the mindset of why Ei is consistently placed above Mei as the more powerful Kage of the two?

Mei's Suitons give her a massive range advantage over most opponents, and they work fantastically for both offense and defense. She can get through any defense easier than the Raikage can with her lava and acid mist, and within it she is more difficult to kill than the Raikage is within his Raiton no Yoroi. Reaction-wise non of the Kage are particularly lacking against Ei, all were able to time their attacks with his full (actually, *enhanced*) speed.

In 9 situations out of 10, I'd likely choose Mei over Raikage most any day. Raikage is simply too limited. Put him up against a defense he can't bust through and he's absolutely useless as anything but a distraction. Put him in a long range battle and he's absolutely useless period.

He's cool, sure, (Black Lightning Man in Cartoon/Anime usually are) but Mei is quite a bit more powerful than he is IMHO.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 25, 2013)

my friend, i know it wouldn't be gentlemen like for Ei to do it, but he could probably run right up to mei and knock her top off.

Ei being one dimensional is okay because he is always IC to immediately use that one dimension of his.
He'll start with V1 speed, which is narrowly counter-able with either sage sensing or sharingan precognition. Since Mei doesn't have reaction powers on par with SM or MS its likely that that would be as far as she goes.

All EIi has do to basically be within a reasonable distance of Mei and be IC and that's it for most people.

Mei is more versatile, but there's nothing exceptionally dangerous about her. The suiton dragon is impressive scale but who is it seriously going to kill at these levels? Lava style has virtually no good speed feats I can recall either. Acid can be escaped/ backed out of but at least its powerful I guess given it melted susanoo.


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 25, 2013)

i'm still try'n to figure what her 2nd dimension is supposed to be...as opposed to?

if Ei lacks sophistication rather than versatility, ok.
 but Mei is a jack of all?


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## Shizune (Oct 25, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> I would like to inquire into the mindset of why Ei is consistently placed above Mei as the more powerful Kage of the two?



On average Mei is underrated and A is overrated, but I think he's more dangerous because his speed is such an advantage in both offense and defense. Some people can't get past Mei's wall of jutsu, but more people can't catch A— and when it comes down to it, getting your neck chopped off is just as deadly as a face full of lava.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 25, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> In 9 situations out of 10, I'd likely choose Mei over Raikage most any day.



That doesn't make sense considering that Mei would lose her head to a V2 blitz in 9 out of 9 of those situations


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Reaction-wise non of the Kage are particularly lacking against Ei, all were able to time their attacks with his full (actually, *enhanced*) speed.




Mangekyou Sasuke cannot follow him, but the average Gokage can!


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## Ersa (Oct 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Mangekyou Sasuke cannot follow him, but the average Gokage can!


They can follow his movement speed; as can Sauce but none of them can follow his Shunshin speed.


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## Rasengan with gatorade (Oct 25, 2013)

Nagato
Kisame
Itachi
Oonoki
Tsunade
Ei


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## Rob (Oct 25, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Gaara is well suited to taking on Kisame. Flight would allow Gaara to stay outside of Kisame's attack range and Samehada can't absorb the sand, because Gaara's sand is well actual Sand, rather than a chakra construct. So I'm pretty sure Gaara would indeed beat Kisame.
> 
> Not that the winner of Gaara vs Kisame, should be the sole factor in discussion a person's tier placement tho. But I do think Gaara is ever so slightly more deadly shinobi than Kisame.



What could Gaara resort to if Kisame made a Water Dome and changed to Kisamehada? 
Does Gaara have any offensives able to penetrate Water Dome? 
And couldn't Kisamehada just stay in the WD and spam powerful Suitons, if Gaara managed to stay out?


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## Turrin (Oct 25, 2013)

RobLucciRapes said:


> What could Gaara resort to if Kisame made a Water Dome and changed to Kisamehada?
> Does Gaara have any offensives able to penetrate Water Dome?


I don't see what water-dome would do to stop sand attacks. I mean as far as I can tell Water Dome is just made of water and therefore should offer little resistance to Sand attacks blasted at someone. 



> And couldn't Kisamehada just stay in the WD and spam powerful Suitons, if Gaara managed to stay out?


I guess but than Gaara could just escape his range. So at best Kisame could force a stalemate


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 25, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Gaara is well suited to taking on Kisame. Flight would allow Gaara to stay outside of Kisame's attack range and Samehada can't absorb the sand, because Gaara's sand is well actual Sand, rather than a chakra construct. So I'm pretty sure Gaara would indeed beat Kisame.
> 
> Not that the winner of Gaara vs Kisame, should be the sole factor in discussion a person's tier placement tho. But I do think Gaara is ever so slightly more deadly shinobi than Kisame.



Gaara uses chakra to control the sand similar to how Shikmaru uses chakra to control his shadows for his most useful attacks he will need chakra , Sand really can't do anything to water from there they cancel each other out and Kisame wins the war of attrition due to having higher chakra levels , they would only hVe decisive victory in their natural terrain, they are both in the same tier with Bee, Kakashi, Gai, Raikage


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## Turrin (Oct 25, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Gaara uses chakra to control the sand similar to how Shikmaru uses chakra to control his shadows for his most useful attacks he will need chakra , Sand really can't do anything to water from there they cancel each other out and Kisame wins the war of attrition due to having higher chakra levels , they would only hVe decisive victory in their natural terrain, they are both in the same tier with Bee, Kakashi, Gai, Raikage


I agree they are both in the same tier, so let's get that right out of the way. However I don't think your assessment is accurate. Water would do nothing to stop Gaara's sand attacks, unless Kisame is constantly using massive scale suitions like Great Shark Missile, 1,000 Feeding Sharks, etc...But if he does that to try and block every Sand attack Gaara uses he'll be the one running out of chakra first. Additionally while yes Gaara uses chakra to control the sand and Kisame could perhaps absorb that once the sand came into range of Samehada, that won't stop the the sand attack itself, it will just prevent Gaara from controlling it in that brief instance. Thus if Gaara threw a sand Shuriken at Kiame (just an example not saying this would kill Kisame), samehada could absorb some chakra from it and prevent Gaara from controlling it, but the Sand Shuriken itself would still fly towards Kisame and cause Kisame damage if it landed.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 25, 2013)

Chakra is used to actively maintain the shape and manipulation of techniques. 

Kisame for instance, his chakra is what keeps his water dome defying gravity and shaped in a dome.

If a sand shuriken was thrown it would lose all shape manipulation done to it and no longer be shuriken-shaped when it reached him Turrin.


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## Jagger (Oct 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I know, right?  My list:
> 
> 
> 1.
> ...


This is wrong. Unless you are talking about Pain, the puppet controlled at distance by Nagato or the Uzumaki himself fighting. Either way, I believe Pain can come up on top.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 25, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> They can follow his movement speed; as can Sauce but none of them can follow his Shunshin speed.




Yes, they can follow that. I assume people speak of Shunshin when they refer to the Raikage, but if you meant his foot speed, then I agree.


----------



## Sadgoob (Oct 25, 2013)

Jagger said:


> This is wrong. Unless you are talking about Pain, the puppet controlled at distance by Nagato or the Uzumaki himself fighting. Either way, I believe Pain can come up on top.



Yeah, I was talking about the puppets.


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## Rob (Oct 25, 2013)

Turrin, you say that Kisame would run out of chakra first, while fending off Gaara's sand attacks... why would it not be the other way around? 

Is it a range issue?

Also, doesn't Kisame have one of the biggest amounts of chakra in the series?


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## Jagger (Oct 25, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> They can follow his movement speed; as can Sauce but none of them can follow his Shunshin speed.


It doesn't matter if she can follow A's speed, but if her body is not fast enough to dodge it or block his punch (which will be stupid anyway) she is screwed.


----------



## Baroxio (Oct 25, 2013)

Unless the Raikage starts within 5 meters of her he isn't getting nearly close enough to do tremendous damage without her rebufing him like she rebuffed Madara's Katons and caught him with Suiton: Suiryudan.

Worse still is if she's in the position to activate Hidden mist, or worse, Acid mist.

Hell, there's no real reason she can't simply do both. A blind Raikage is a useless Raikage.

Mei simply has more options to deal with him than vice versa. Unless the match starts out in Ei's favor (short distance) he's never going to beat her.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 25, 2013)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Turrin, you say that Kisame would run out of chakra first, while fending off Gaara's sand attacks... why would it not be the other way around?
> 
> Is it a range issue?
> 
> Also, doesn't Kisame have one of the biggest amounts of chakra in the series?



It's that kisame would need to use more draining techniques to counter Garaas


----------



## Kazekage94 (Oct 25, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> Because she is a superior shinobi, irrelevant of their specific/direct match-up.
> 
> they aren't the only 2 characters in the 'verse.



Oh that's it? Alright, I just felt that maybe winning against someone comes to play when you are talking about rank but ok.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 25, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Unless the Raikage starts within 5 meters of her he isn't getting nearly close enough to do tremendous damage without her rebufing him like she rebuffed Madara's Katons and caught him with Suiton: Suiryudan.
> 
> Worse still is if she's in the position to activate Hidden mist, or worse, Acid mist.
> 
> ...




Unless she fires them point blank, she will fail to connect with any projectile Ninjutsu. Even in a lower powered version of Raiton no Yori, he was dodging lazer canons from _centimeters_ out. If he uses his flicker, the one that avoids unavoidable Jutsu, there's even less of a chance that she'll ever make contact.

Mei isn't going to repel the Raikage's charges, or even touch him with Suiton Jutsu. Ei isn't a Katon with a preset path that Mei is intercepting. Should she attempt to guard with Ninjutsu...._he'll go around_. We've seen this before, with Lee & Gaara. Lee, having the speed advantage, could change direction on a whim, making it difficult for Gaara to keep up. Ei will obviously see her formulate the seals, making this an i_ncredibly_ simple maneuver. She'll end up firing her Jutsu at a Raikage that's already traveled to her flank.  The only way she could catch him is if he used "the fastest punch" or "lighting straight" or whatever you want to call his fastest Shunshin, but she can't physically react to form seals in time to that technique. Even though he's running on a linear path, he'll tear her head before she can flinch. The guy was brushing up against even Minato's nose.

The Mist is her only offensive chance, but it isn't going to immediately knock Ei out. He'll have plenty of time to sprint out of the AoE of the technique, and wait her out. Chakra is required to keep the Mist active, as it doesn't just linger there forever when the Mist Shinobi is killed or knocked out. Just look at Zabuza who's mist faded after his deaths. Mei doesn't hold a candle to the Raikage in terms of Chakra pool; she won't be outlasting him under _any_ circumstance, and since she can't hit him, she falls.


----------



## Baroxio (Oct 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Unless she fires them point blank, she will fail to connect with any projectile Ninjutsu. Even in a lower powered version of Raiton no Yori, he was dodging lazer canons from _centimeters_ out. If he uses his flicker, the one that avoids unavoidable Jutsu, there's even less of a chance that she'll ever make contact.
> 
> Mei isn't going to repel the Raikage's charges, or even touch him with Suiton Jutsu. Ei isn't a Katon with a preset path that Mei is intercepting. Should she attempt to guard with Ninjutsu...._he'll go around_. We've seen this before, with Lee & Gaara. Lee, having the speed advantage, could change direction on a whim, making it difficult for Gaara to keep up. Ei will obviously see her formulate the seals, making this an i_ncredibly_ simple maneuver. She'll end up firing her Jutsu at a Raikage that's already traveled to her flank.  The only way she could catch him is if he used "the fastest punch" or "lighting straight" or whatever you want to call his fastest Shunshin, but she can't physically react to form seals in time to that technique. Even though he's running on a linear path, he'll tear her head before she can flinch. The guy was brushing up against even Minato's nose.
> 
> The Mist is her only offensive chance, but it isn't going to immediately knock Ei out. He'll have plenty of time to sprint out of the AoE of the technique, and wait her out. Chakra is required to keep the Mist active, as it doesn't just linger there forever when the Mist Shinobi is killed or knocked out. Just look at Zabuza who's mist faded after his deaths. Mei doesn't hold a candle to the Raikage in terms of Chakra pool; she won't be outlasting him under _any_ circumstance, and since she can't hit him, she falls.


Going around Mei's ridiculously huge suiton ninjutsu only gives her more time to deal with the Raikage before he can get into an attacking range, as "going around," by definition *increases* distance. Keep in mind that lava can keep even Raikage off the ground, so she has a fair bit of battlefield control there as well. Eventually, going around isn't going to be a possibility, and if the Raikage has to divert his path around Mei's ninjutsu that eventually will certainly come.

Hidden mist is a similar case. Once the mist goes up there is nothing he can do except act in an OOC manner and attempt to wait it out, because for some reason he just *knows* that he has more chakra than her, despite having no such knowledge. He also has no knowledge on acidic mist, so there's no real reason for him to back the fuck out of there until his flesh starts melting. 

Of course even in your ridicuously OOC/full knowledge scenario, once Raikage is far away from her, then the mist has more than done it's job, as she's created the distance and time she needs to further control the battlefield while Raikage doesn't even know where she is and is OOC too much of a pussy to attempt to attack. 

With lava to prevent movements and the ability to ambush him, there really isn't anything he can do, especially if he does as you suggest and runs away out of it's tremendous area of effect and subsequently gives her the chance to ambush him with a technique that will certainly kill him.

Hell, acidic mist is invisible, so there's no way for Ei to know that even if the Hidden Mist is gone that it's safe to go after her. What's worse, is the fact that Acidic mist does not require maintence from Mei, as she specifically needs to use a jutsu to change it's pH after Sasuke lets it escape into the Kage meeting room. If it would simply disappear when she stopped using chakra then there would be no need for her to do this.


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## Rocky (Oct 25, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Going around Mei's ridiculously huge suiton ninjutsu only gives her more time to deal with the Raikage before he can get into an attacking range, as "going around," by definition *increases* distance. Keep in mind that lava can keep even Raikage off the ground, so she has a fair bit of battlefield control there as well. Eventually, going around isn't going to be a possibility, and if the Raikage has to divert his path around Mei's ninjutsu that eventually will certainly come.




Except there isn't any reason for him to wait for the Suiton to take form before he changes direction. Like I said, he'll see her form the seals, and when she leans in to spew the Suiton, _that's _when he'll make his move to her flank. She'll have fired her Suiton at nothing. This is much different than Ei going around the entire Water Dragon. 

Reread that entire "Lee v. Gaara" fight to truly grasp how greatly a large speed and agility advantage can render an opponent helpless. You act as if the Raikage will blindly charge into her Jutsu. He operates on a greater reflexive tier than her. 



> Hidden mist is a similar case. Once the mist goes up there is nothing he can do except act in an OOC manner and attempt to wait it out, because for some reason he just *knows* that he has more chakra than her, despite having no such knowledge. He also has no knowledge on acidic mist, so there's no real reason for him to back the fuck out of there until his flesh starts melting.
> 
> 
> Of course even in your ridicuously OOC/full knowledge scenario, once Raikage is far away from her, then the mist has more than done it's job, as she's created the distance and time she needs to further control the battlefield while Raikage doesn't even know where she is and is OOC too much of a pussy to attempt to attack.




He'll make an educated assumption that he's superior in the Chakra department. He has Bijuu levels, and Bijuu level Chakra is not a common thing. I could've sworn that the Gokage had full knowledge on each other considering they fought *all out* against Madara for an entire day, but whatever. When the mist randomly starts to burn his RnY, that should be a red flag. Ei's speed is _exceptional._ He'll have no issues getting the hell out of dodge before it tears off his armor and does any lasting damage. 

It is not out of character for the Raikage to refrain from attacking through deadly acid. He wouldn't be nearly as emotionally invested in a bout with Mei as he was with Sasuke. He is a Kage and village leader, not a mentally challenged toddler. He'll stay back and wait for the danger to clear.

Once they're a large distance away from each other, an attrition battle begins. Ei can't see her sure, but she can't see him either. She won't be doing any "battlefield controlling," as he'll be actively avoiding her offense.  



> With lava to prevent movements and the ability to ambush him, there really isn't anything he can do, especially if he does as you suggest and runs away out of it's tremendous area of effect and subsequently gives her the chance to ambush him with a technique that will certainly kill him.




Lava residue on the ground isn't going to prevent movement. Ei runs through it, just as he ran through Enton: Kagutsuchi and continued to fight. He won't be touching it for but a second, and it's only coming into contact with his lighting armor.

The acidic mist hasn't demonstrated grand AoE in the slightest, and neither has the Hidden Mist. I don't understand what technique in Mei's arsenal is capable of ambushing _and_ killing the Raikage before he escapes the mist and regains his visibility. Mei isn't some super assassin. The best she could do is fire a Suiton or lava glob at the place she thinks Ei's at, but blind-fire attacks aren't hitting a speeding Raikage who's on the lookout. 



> Hell, acidic mist is invisible, so there's no way for Ei to know that even if the Hidden Mist is gone that it's safe to go after her. What's worse, is the fact that Acidic mist does not require maintence from Mei, as she specifically needs to use a jutsu to change it's pH after Sasuke lets it escape into the Kage meeting room. If it would simply disappear when she stopped using chakra then there would be no need for her to do this.




The _Hidden Mist_ does, and that is her protection. Ei can tolerate the acid long enough to invert her skull with a "my Sharingan can't follow!" Shunshin. Her only protection against that is the Hidden Mist, which prevents Ei from targeting her.


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## jacobsmith (Oct 25, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I don't see what water-dome would do to stop sand attacks. I mean as far as I can tell Water Dome is just made of water and therefore should offer little resistance to Sand attacks blasted at someone.
> 
> 
> I guess but than Gaara could just escape his range. So at best Kisame could force a stalemate



1 foot of water will turn bullets into nonlethal shrapnel.   

Kisame is like the worst matchup imaginable for Gaara.


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## jacobsmith (Oct 25, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I know, right?  My list:
> 
> 
> 1.
> ...




OMG, more itachi wank.
I am starting to wonder if it is wank or stupidity at this point.... Maybe a combo?


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## Turrin (Oct 25, 2013)

jacobsmith said:


> 1 foot of water will turn bullets into nonlethal shrapnel.
> 
> Kisame is like the worst matchup imaginable for Gaara.


Why would Water do that to chakra reinforced Sand?


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## jacobsmith (Oct 25, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Why would Water do that to chakra reinforced Sand?



Its hard to know what part chakra plays here. 

I keep imagining Kisame in his waterdome, and gaara hoovering above it. In such a scenario what can either do to the other?

For one of the first times ever, I think I might say location may play a major role here.


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## Turrin (Oct 25, 2013)

jacobsmith said:


> Its hard to know what part chakra plays here.
> 
> I keep imagining Kisame in his waterdome, and gaara hoovering above it. In such a scenario what can either do to the other?
> 
> For one of the first times ever, I think I might say location may play a major role here.



Chakra should play a major part, I mean we've seen Gaara's sand handle far greater resistance than mere water, like massive explosion, Ei's Raiton Leg Drop, Kimi's Bone Spear, etc...


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## Rob (Oct 25, 2013)

@Turrn 

Couldn't Kisame's Water Dome slow down the sand trying to pass through it? 
I'd assume that the WD is enforced by Chakra just like Gaara's sand, so if anything, their attacks would stalemate, until Daikodan is brought out, of course. 

Also, you said earlier that Kisame's moves require more chakra, so he would run out first. 

But... Kisame easily has more Chakra than Gaara, so couldn't he afford using more powerful attacks? 

What would happen if Kisame were to not use WD or go into Kisamehada, but actually fought Gaara head on, with Samehada? 

I could easily be wrong with all of this. I'm just curious.


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## Turrin (Oct 25, 2013)

RobLucciRapes said:


> @Turrn
> 
> Couldn't Kisame's Water Dome slow down the sand trying to pass through it?


I don't see water slowing down Gaara's sand. This is sand we've seen easily flow through the ground and grind rock into sand. 



> 'd assume that the WD is enforced by Chakra just like Gaara's sand, so if anything, their attacks would stalemate, until Daikodan is brought out, of course.


We really have no reason to believe the WD is enforced defensively with chakra, B was swimming through it with ease in base. So for all intents and purposes it is just normal water. 



> Also, you said earlier that Kisame's moves require more chakra, so he would run out first.
> 
> But... Kisame easily has more Chakra than Gaara, so couldn't he afford using more powerful attacks?


Kisame probably has more chakra than Gaara, though of that i'm not 100% sure. Gaara has insane feats of of chakra quantity. So if Kisame has more it's probably not by a huge margin and if he keeps having to spam moves that cost way more chakra than Garra's sand attacks, he's going to run out of chakra first.

It's like when Sasuke fought Itachi. Itachi had a 2.5 in stamina and Sasuke had a 3.5, but Sasuke ran out of stamina first because he was having to spam more chakra taxing Jutsu.



> What would happen if Kisame were to not use WD or go into Kisamehada, but actually fought Gaara head on, with Samehada?


Gaara would just fly out of his range


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## jacobsmith (Oct 25, 2013)

Gaara's only real weakness in part one was he was stationary.  
That weakness is gone in part 2 as he flies around in the air on sand.

The kid almost has no weaknesses, which is why I find it odd people downplay him so much.


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## Baroxio (Oct 25, 2013)

@ Rocky, 

"Wait for the Suiton to take form"...what? 

Mei suiton feats have her blocking close range fire attacks from freaking Madara of all people before chaining to an offensive suiton all while Madara is still in the air. 

Mei has shown from the Kage fight that she's not so underneath Ei in reactions that she can't use her ninjutsu in conjunction with his movement speed and has the reactions to block freaking Uchiha Madara.

You're underestimating her WAY too much if you even *think* of bringing up Part 1 Gaara (no need for physical abilities because automatic sand shield) vs Lee (God of physical abilities) in relation.

Of course, even in that fight, the insanely one-dimensional Lee lost against the much more balanced "I can do anything with sand" Gaara, so that doesn't really help your argument spectacularly.

As for things Mei can do, Mei has in canon blocked off areas with large amounts of flowing lava, so it's well within her abilities to block off areas of the ground with lava. If Ei attempts to run through them, then while it might not hurt him immediately, dodging Mei's attacks are going to quickly cause him to burn his legs and drastically lose the only thing he has in this match- speed. 

And she has all the time to set up if he runs away from Hidden Mist. If they are fighting in any location with decent cover, she can easily take the chance to set up an ambush in the mist, and release it when she's ready.

Actually, strike that. She sets up Hidden mist then sets up acid mist while hiding. After she releases Hidden Mist and Ei goes to look for her with no ability to directly find her, he's prone to simply melting his face off by accidentally walking into invisible acid mist. GG. No ambush required, no extra setup beyond what's there. Even if you assume that Ei's raiton armor can last longer than Sasuke's Susano which *instantly* began melting, if he doesn't know where she is then he's fucked, pure and simple.

And an educated guess based off the idea that 99% of people don't have Bijuu level chakra reserves doesn't fucking matter in a battle against *Kage*, i.e. the other 1%. Considering all the Kages lasted equally as long against Madara, Ei would sooner assume that they have equivalent amounts of chakra (being a Kage, it isn't a far-fetched assumption)

As for the "Sharingan can't follow" Shunshin, it's worthless in this match as he specifically needs to stand in one place and charge it with bijuu levels of chakra, giving Mei all the more time she needs to set up.

But enough of the Raikage vs Mei battle. I said earlier that in 9 situations out of 10 Mei would be better to have, and that's the real reason why she'd be better than Raikage.


*Durability/Regen freaks like Ei's dad/Tsunade?*
Mei's acid mist and lava ignore durability and there is little they can do to stop her from setting it up.
Ei just wastes his time and chakra on tanks who are better than him, AND can do more than he can.

*Long range foes?*
Mei has long range Suitons that are great offensively or defensively.
Ei can block and dodge, but can't counterattack. Almost completely neutered by freaking Sai.

*Clearing out the trash (killing waves of fodder)?*
Mei's Suitons and Acid Mist are perfect for this, allowing her to handle a great number of them at a time.
Raikage has to kill each one separately, making things drastically harder for him and his "Bijuu levels of chakra."

*Dodging attacks?*
Mei has Hidden Mist.
Raikage has speed that in many cases needs to be charged up to be truly effective.


So yeah, if I wanted to kill fodder waves, I'd go with Mei, if I wanted to dodge an attack, I'd go with Mei, if I wanted to kill somebody hard to kill, I'd go with Mei, and if I wanted to deal with long range foes I'd go with Mei.

The only place where Raikage exceeds her is in matchups against people with strong offenses that beat Mei's defensive Suitons (but not Raikage's Raiton armor), some method of sensing in Mei's mist (but no way of tracking the RaiKage), is not a long range attacker, and can survive Mei's offenses like acid mist (yet somehow not survive a Raikage Lariat).

Nobody fits all of those categories, so even in cases where the Raikage might outperform Mei, she's not totally useless and often still has the tools to win.

On the other hand, if the person is a durability freak, a long range attacker, etc. then Raikage can literally do nothing to said person.

There is no way Raikage can beat more people than Mei can, and no reason he should be placed above her in a tier list.


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## Rocky (Oct 26, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> @ Rocky,
> 
> "Wait for the Suiton to take form"...what?
> 
> ...




Yes, wait for the Suiton to form. The water exits her mouth and _then_ forms into a dragon. I honestly don't give a damn about her countering Madara's Katon Ninjutsu. So what? Madara's fire balls aren't as fast as Ei, aren't as reflexive as Ei, aren't wearing a cloak that boosts those reflexes tremendously, can't change direction, can't avoid anything....I could go on and on. 

Mei didn't display any sort of Sution in response to Ei's foot speed, let alone flicker, during their duel with Madara. She blocked Madara's Fire Style and then launched him into the air. That was her contribution; it has nothing to do with the Raikage. Ei , Tsunade, and Onoki attacked after Madara was launched. Where exactly is the reflex feat? Reacting to Madara's Katon? Bravo.



> You're underestimating her WAY too much if you even *think* of bringing up Part 1 Gaara (no need for physical abilities because automatic sand shield) vs Lee (God of physical abilities) in relation.
> 
> Of course, even in that fight, the insanely one-dimensional Lee lost against the much more balanced "I can do anything with sand" Gaara, so that doesn't really help your argument spectacularly




It's an analogy...

Listen, the Raikage's opponents in the Manga were Sasuke, Minato, Naruto, and Madara. Minato & Naruto are faster than him, and Madara & Sasuke have legendary Dojutsu that greatly increase their perceptual abilities. I brought fourth the Lee and Gaara example to simulate what a battle with the Raikage would entail for a Shinobi with average reflexes.

Gaara had average Gennin~Chuunin reflexes back then (just as he has average Kage reflexes right now), and Lee had _above_ average speed. Mei right now is very average in terms of speed & reflexes (on a Kage scale), but Ei was the _fastest thing on the planet_ for the past 16 years.  So no, this Lee-Gaara example isn't as crazy as you think. If you want a Kage level example of an old fashion speed blitzing, look at Kisame against 6 Gated Gai.



> As for things Mei can do, Mei has in canon blocked off areas with large amounts of flowing lava, so it's well within her abilities to block off areas of the ground with lava. If Ei attempts to run through them, then while it might not hurt him immediately, dodging Mei's attacks are going to quickly cause him to burn his legs and drastically lose the only thing he has in this match- speed.
> 
> And she has all the time to set up if he runs away from Hidden Mist. If they are fighting in any location with decent cover, she can easily take the chance to set up an ambush in the mist, and release it when she's ready.
> 
> Actually, strike that. She sets up Hidden mist then sets up acid mist while hiding. After she releases Hidden Mist and Ei goes to look for her with no ability to directly find her, he's prone to simply melting his face off by accidentally walking into invisible acid mist. GG. No ambush required, no extra setup beyond what's there. Even if you assume that Ei's raiton armor can last longer than Sasuke's Susano which *instantly* began melting, if he doesn't know where she is then he's fucked, pure and simple.




Mei's lava cools and becomes stone rather quickly. That would be how she was able to seal of the hall that she fought Sasuke in. Any residual lava on the ground will become stone, not that it matters. The Raikage, covered in RnY, will most certainly not be receiving any burns from .00001 second exposure to lava. As long as he doesn't stand in it, he'll be fine. 

Oh, and speaking of Sasuke, he straight up tanked that mist. It broke through Susano'o and started affecting him, yet Sasuke remained a solid despite being exposed to it for multiple pages.  Mei was incredibly lucky against Sasuke. She waltzed into close quarters with him, and had he not been incredibly drained, he would've activated Stage 2 Susano'o and sliced her in half. 

I'm not going to address the "hiding" point, because that depends on the location. Either party can win if favorable enough circumstances are granted.



> And an educated guess based off the idea that 99% of people don't have Bijuu level chakra reserves doesn't fucking matter in a battle against *Kage*, i.e. the other 1%. Considering all the Kages lasted equally as long against Madara, Ei would sooner assume that they have equivalent amounts of chakra (being a Kage, it isn't a far-fetched assumption)




"All Kage have equal Chakra to the Raikage because they're Kage "



Sorry, but no. The Kage lasted long because of Tsunade_ constantly healing them_, and the only people we saw run out of Chakra at the end were Onoki & Tsunade herself. We don't know how much Chakra the rest of them had keft at the end. Ei's not going to assume Mei has equivalent Chakra to him just because she's a fucking Kage. That doesn't even make any sense. 



> As for the "Sharingan can't follow" Shunshin, it's worthless in this match as he specifically needs to stand in one place and charge it with bijuu levels of chakra, giving Mei all the more time she needs to set up.




He was able to charge it in the time it takes Minato to wave his arm, or the time it takes Sauce to shoot out an instantaneous Amaterasu.

Not a bunch of time for set up there.


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## Turrin (Oct 26, 2013)

@Braxio 

Great post, you sold me on the idea that Mei should be above Ei, would be interested in seeing more people format their ideas the way you did in that post.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 26, 2013)

historically Hokage>Tsuchikage>Mizukage>Raikage>Kazekage

so it wouldn't surprise me that Mei was stronger than Gaara and Raikage


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## Rob (Oct 26, 2013)

@Turrin 

I see. 

Does Kisamehada not have the reaction speed to dodge Gaara's attacks, while in water? I'd like to think he does... since that's like his home turf...


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## Turrin (Oct 26, 2013)

RobLucciRapes said:


> @Turrin
> 
> I see.
> 
> Does Kisamehada not have the reaction speed to dodge Gaara's attacks, while in water? I'd like to think he does... since that's like his home turf...


Depends the scale of Gaara's attacks, where Kisame is in the dome, etc... If he can dodges it than that really is kind of irrelevant to the discussion of him using his Suitons to counter it. 

Honestly I consider Gaara and Kisame pretty close to equal, with Gaara being just slightly better and having more potential due to the vast increase in power he can get if he fights on a certain location (I.E. the desert).


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