# Tobirama & Itachi Vs Gai and Kakashi



## Trojan (Feb 18, 2015)

Location: Black Zetsu Vs JJ Madara (Why do I keep doing this? ) 
Knowledge: Basics I suppose
Distance: 50m
Mindset: IC
Conditions: 
1- Tobirama needs to sacrifice people to use ET. He can use itachi if he wants, or if they captured Kakashi or Gai, or he can use the explosion tags jutsu by his own body.

2- Gai can only use up to 7 Gates, and actually he starts with it.
3- I wanted to put "DMS" Kakashi, but knowing how people would react, lets say it's MS Kakashi for the sake of this thread... 

4- Itachi can use Koto after 10 years from the start of the battle. 

How does this go?


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## Empathy (Feb 18, 2015)

Tobirama's fast enough to avoid _Kamui_ (isn't he?) and Itachi can protect them both from _Hirudora_ with _Susanoo_. I'm not sure if Tobirama would be able to protect Itachi from _Kamui_ or if he could deal with _Hirudora_ on his own, but neither Kakashi or Gai have definite answers toward Itachi's Mangeyou. Both aren't fast enough to avoid _Amaterasu_. Gai can fight by looking at Itachi's feet to avoid genjutsu, but it'd hinder him. Kakashi could resist _Tsukuyomi_ for a short while, but he'd still go down eventually; he may have to fight while avoiding eye-contact as well. Gai's probably fast enough to avoid the _Totsuka no Tsurugi_, but Kakashi isn't. Once they've blocked _Hirudora_, then they can just outlast Gai or he can be taken out by _Amaterasu_. If either are tagged by Tobirama, then they'll die. I don't believe either have the reaction feats to counter an instantaneous attack. _Hirashin's_ the fastest technique on the battlefield, faster than _Kamui_ or Gai in the _Kyomon_. Itachi's granted access to _Kotoamatsukami_, so really they just have to mind-control Kakashi or Gai, and then triple team the remainder. Itachi and Tobirama have the better odds though, even without it.


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## Trojan (Feb 18, 2015)

Well, there is the famous 7th Gate Gai is JJ madara level, so he should be able to dodge Amatersu and speedblitze both Tobirama and itachi based on that...
and as for Tobirama he will also be given Minato's feats even though Minato is his superior, so I guess
you can be sure that he would avoid Kamui in this thread, that would be granted for him I suppose... 



> Itachi's granted access to Kotoamatsukami, so really they just have to mind-control Kakashi or Gai, and then triple team the remainder. Itachi and Tobirama have the better odds though, even without it.



I really doubt the battle will last 10 years...


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## Alex Payne (Feb 18, 2015)

Tobirama is a bad matchup for both Kakashi and Gai. Extremely fast intelligent sensor with teleportation vs someone who relies on tricks/feints and whose trump's only weakness is speed. Gai also would struggle against Hiraishin. Itachi vs War Arc Kakashi is 50/50 in my eyes but the winner is going to be exhausted. But Itachi vs this restricted Gai is in Itachi's favor - Gai's counter for Amaterasu isn't very reliable and he'd have troubles wuth Itachi's bunshin-feints. 

DMS Kakashi would solo the other three low diff obviously


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## Empathy (Feb 18, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I really doubt the battle will last 10 years...



Sorry, the wording made me think the ten year interval already passed.


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## Mercurial (Feb 18, 2015)

Kakashi easily defeats Itachi warping him with long range Kamui. Gai pressures Tobirama with 7th Gate speed and taijutsu, and blitz followed by Hiru Tora fucks him as he cannot stop it and can't teleport away to a mark due to the enormous AoE.


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2015)

Tagged Kage Bunshin negate the AoE of AT. And if Gai rushes a KAGE Bunshin with a taijustu combo then he gets the Juubito treatment: the nature of his attacks


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## Trojan (Feb 18, 2015)

Tobirama already explained how his clones' FTG's speed is too slow. 



> Tagged Kage Bunshin negate the AoE of AT.



How tagging them will negate that exactly? O_O


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama already explained how his clones' FTG's speed is too slow.
> 
> 
> 
> How tagging them will negate that exactly? O_O



For controlled V2 Obito( who is aware of the marking on his back) yes. That's not Gai though....

Kage Bunshin run away from Tobirama to place marking...


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## Trojan (Feb 18, 2015)

No, he is talking about their FTG itself that it too slow. 



> Kage Bunshin run away from Tobirama to place marking...



That will require him to waste more than half of his chakra to make them. Unlike Edo Tobirama however, he
is not getting his chakra regenerated in no time here. Also, if they wen't out of the battlefield does not that count 
as an automatic lose here?


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2015)

Hussain said:


> No, he is talking about their FTG itself that it too slow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



FTG is instaneous don't kid yourself. He's clearly talking about the reactions and movements of the clones themselves.

Part 1 Naruto can do this: the nature of his attacks

It's Tobiramas Justu itself as well as the fact that Tobirama is a full blood Senju. Pretty sure he has enough chakra to make Atleast 5 important clones.

They are in a giant open wasteland. There's enough space to move his clones away from him without disqualifying himself..


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## Mercurial (Feb 18, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Tagged Kage Bunshin negate the AoE of AT. And if Gai rushes a KAGE Bunshin with a taijustu combo then he gets the Juubito treatment: the nature of his attacks



Obito couldn't put a finger on worn out base Gai. SM Juudara couldn't counterhit 7th Gate Gai's taijutsu blitz as he easily did with SM Minato. Also Gai doesn't even need to touch his opponent as he can use supersonic long range punches spam with Asa Kujaku; and if a tired Gai can use 7th Gate + Hiru Tora + 8th Gate for an extended time with multiple Sekizo and the Night Guy, a fresh Gai can at very least spam Asa Kujaku and use a couple of Hiru Tora, when 8th Gate's strain is enormous compared to 7th Gate and under. Also Kakashi would quickly kill Itachi with long range Kamui, so it would be a gangbag rape with both Masters against Tobirama, as strong as the Second Hokage is, he has no chances.


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Obito couldn't put a finger on worn out base Gai. SM Juudara couldn't counterhit 7th Gate Gai's taijutsu blitz as he easily did with SM Minato. Also Gai doesn't even need to touch his opponent as he can use supersonic long range punches spam with Asa Kujaku; and if a tired Gai can use 7th Gate + Hiru Tora + 8th Gate for an extended time with multiple Sekizo and the Night Guy, a fresh Gai can at very least spam Asa Kujaku and use a couple of Hiru Tora, when 8th Gate's strain is enormous compared to 7th Gate and under. Also Kakashi would quickly kill Itachi with long range Kamui, so it would be a gangbag rape with both Masters against Tobirama, as strong as the Second Hokage is, he has no chances.



Tobirama could tag Juubito 6 times during a shunshin. So do you believe 7th gate Gai > Juubito in speed because I hope you don't. Notice that I said " if " Gai rushes in that he gets the Juubito treatment. He's slower than a god tier like Juubito and he clearly gets the same treatment, much worse actually. 

Except AT and MP can be dodged causally and just ended up wasting Gai more energy than Tobirama.

That's the thing, entering the 8th hate doesn't require as much resilience endurance and Durabilty as you assume. A Genin like dai could activate the tech and hold off ninja long enough for Gai to escape. You aren't telling me dai is some super human now lmao.

Gai isn't spamming AT because he never has and has only ever used such in desperate situations . 
? Against Kisame, his body was torn apart after.
? against Madara he didn't fight for awhile after
? against J-Madara he activated the red aura gate and commited suicide basically.

He's not spamming shit lmao.

I agree that red aura Gai would destroy this team and that Kakashi and Gai together would beat Tobirama however.


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## ARGUS (Feb 18, 2015)

Tobirama and Itachi win mid diff 

 -- Itachi gets marked by tobirama, and alll of kamui attempts are  evaded by the duo by FTG, 

 -- kakashi gets wrecked by tobirama, the latters speed and reflexes are  well above his, and his FTG shits on his entire arsenal, he gets marked by a single clone engaging him in CQC, or tobirama teleports itachi right behind him whilst allowing him to finish him off 

 -- guys AT gets tanked by V4 susanoo,, his speed is reacted to by tobirama as he  uses his clones to spread out with markings at a range where guy wont know who to attack before he runs out of gates, and if guy bothers to use  another AT to bust itachis susanoo then he still runs out gates and gets raped afterwrads


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2015)

H





Raikiri19 said:


> Obito couldn't put a finger on worn out base Gai. SM Juudara couldn't counterhit 7th Gate Gai's taijutsu blitz as he easily did with SM Minato. Also Gai doesn't even need to touch his opponent as he can use supersonic long range punches spam with Asa Kujaku; and if a tired Gai can use 7th Gate + Hiru Tora + 8th Gate for an extended time with multiple Sekizo and the Night Guy, a fresh Gai can at very least spam Asa Kujaku and use a couple of Hiru Tora, when 8th Gate's strain is enormous compared to 7th Gate and under. Also Kakashi would quickly kill Itachi with long range Kamui, so it would be a gangbag rape with both Masters against Tobirama, as strong as the Second Hokage is, he has no chances.



Obito is physically slower than Tobirama though 

Also Kakashi isn't beating itachi. Ama is just as fast 


Itachi can camp in susanoo and pressure Kakashi 

Gai and kakabi loose


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi easily defeats Itachi warping him with long range Kamui. Gai pressures Tobirama with 7th Gate speed and taijutsu, and blitz followed by Hiru Tora fucks him as he cannot stop it and can't teleport away to a mark due to the enormous AoE.



 Well, Kakashi has to Kamui a portion of Susanoo in order to Kamui Itachi.

 I do agree, if Gai gets up his 7th gates, they lose, but with Tobirama's speed and reflexes (which will let him tag * Base * Gai) along with Itachi's Tsukyomi after Kakashi Kamui's a part of Itachi's Susanoo, well, things don't look good for them.


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## ARGUS (Feb 18, 2015)

Tobirama is not marking Guy when he's in the 7th gate, ever 
Guy is far more skilled in the 7th gate, has a far superior striking speed and much faster movement speed 
Tobirama gets wrecked in a CQC confrontation 

The only reason he managed to land a mark on juubito was when he had his entir body ripped in half, with juubito being mindless (big factor to consider) as shown when he was unable to mark RT madara who is much slower 

The main reason why tobiramas team wins is because itachi can focus a lot of guys attention towards himself thanks to susanoo whilst his clones completely spread out and confuse guy on who to aim for, 

Kakashi here gets wrecked by a single clone from tobirmaa


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Tobirama is not marking Guy when he's in the 7th gate, ever
> Guy is far more skilled in the 7th gate, has a far superior striking speed and much faster movement speed
> Tobirama gets wrecked in a CQC confrontation
> 
> ...



 It honestly depends whether or not Gai gets up his 7th Gates which, with Itachi, he's not activating it as you stated.


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Tobirama is not marking Guy when he's in the 7th gate, ever
> Guy is far more skilled in the 7th gate, has a far superior striking speed and much faster movement speed
> Tobirama gets wrecked in a CQC confrontation
> *
> ...



I am astonished you said that honestly. 
I guess some debates do pay off after all...


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Tobirama is not marking Guy when he's in the 7th gate, ever
> Guy is far more skilled in the 7th gate, has a far superior striking speed and much faster movement speed
> Tobirama gets wrecked in a CQC confrontation
> 
> ...



Mindless Juubitos shunshin should be no slower than his controlled state. They both have the entire JUUBI inside them and were able to perform a perfect shunshin. Unless you have proof that is of such ... Mind you KCM Minato , KCM Naruto or EMS Sasuke never reacted to his shunshin. 

Tobirama being ripped to shreds means nothing , when he can accomplish said feat with a Kage Bunshin . Tagging Juubito six times during a shunshin makes Gai look like a joke . If Gai rushes in the 7th gate with cqc taijjstu against a KB, he has no chance .

?Sage sensing puts base natures reactions above KCM Naruto( who can react to V2 ay)
 ? Edo Madara can react to V2 Ay 
? alive Madara is > to Edo Madara
? alive Madara + sage sensing = thug.

It's also to note that Tobirama never used his HandSpeed against RT Madara merely previously built up momentum . He was already in thrust position when he warped , this taking away the hand speed element . That scene was clearly Also riddled with old seeing as Tobirama didn't warp to a safe spot or bring a KB.


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## Icegaze (Feb 19, 2015)

Do note Gai fastsst punch was trolled by juudara 
7th gate Gai in no way blitz juudara 
Also Tobirama did blitz juubito I don't see how that makes Tobirama slow 

Kakashi cannot beat a double MS

Team masters loose 

Either Tobirama or itachi can beat Kakashi
And either Tobirama or itachi can beat Gai 

Because so far no proof is there that itachi can't keep up with Gai speed 

Therefore amaterasu is going to be a welcome gift


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2015)

> Because so far no proof is there that itachi can't keep up with Gai speed



quote of the year...


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## ARGUS (Feb 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I am astonished you said that honestly.
> I guess some debates do pay off after all...



I have always been under the impression that tobirama managed to mark juubito but that was all due to the expense of his whole body, and juubito being mindless helped him do so much easily  

however that still doesnt change the fact that  tobirama tagged juubito 5 times, and that is reaction feat that is damn impressive



Likes boss said:


> Mindless Juubitos shunshin should be no slower than his controlled state. They both have the entire JUUBI inside them and were able to perform a perfect shunshin.


Never stated that there iis a vast gap in their shunshin, 
however juubito being mindless meant that he had no clue what was going on, 
andd was just throwing his attacks around similar to the juubi 

with him having a mind he can counterattack much effectively and would never let tobirama place a mark on him, similar to how he shat on KCM minato the moment he attempted to attack him 



> Unless you have proof that is of such ... Mind you KCM Minato , KCM Naruto or EMS Sasuke never reacted to his shunshin.


And what exactly made you think such thing? 

*EMS Sasuke tracked his shunshin* and even tagged him, 

KCM Minato still reacted to juubito (though at the expense of his arm) just how tobirama did and assisted in naruto and sasuke into landing their blows, no reason to believe why he didnt react

KCM naruto however couldnt physically keep up with juubito,* however he also reacted to his attack and grabbed onto minato into teleporting themselves away from him *, that is still a reaction, and minato teleporting them away on time is also a reaction on his behalf 

i can somewhat agree on KCM naruto being blitzed by Juubito, but certainly not on minato and sasuke 



> Tobirama being ripped to shreds means nothing , when he can accomplish said feat with a Kage Bunshin .


It does mean something, 
 interms of reflexes and striking speed so that alone wont be cutting it here, 
and



> * Tagging Juubito six times during a shunshin makes Gai look like a joke . If Gai rushes in the 7th gate with cqc taijjstu against a KB, he has no chance .*


Guy tagged Juubi Madara in CQC and was landing clean blows on him 
forcing madara to block instead of evading 
Juubi Madara >> Juubito interms of speed, reflexes and everything, 
and JJ madara >>>> RT Madara in every way shape or form 
and guy tagged him without the assistance or loss of anything on his behalf 

so guys feat is above tobiramas, well above it
with guy landing blows on someone far superior to tobirama, there is no reason to beelieve why he  cant land them on tobirama who is inferior to JJ madar in terms of everything, 

if its a KB then it goes poof and if its the real tobirama then he gets pummelled beefore he even dreams abuot landing a blow on guy, 
CQC is literally the worst thing for tobirama against gated guy, 



> •Sage sensing puts base natures reactions above KCM Naruto( who can react to V2 ay)
> • Edo Madara can react to V2 Ay


not physically, only through his precog perhaps, 


> • alive Madara is > to Edo Madara
> • alive Madara + sage sensing = thug.


Agreed 



> It's also to note that Tobirama never used his HandSpeed against RT Madara merely previously built up momentum . He was already in thrust position when he warped , this taking away the hand speed element . That scene was clearly Also riddled with old seeing as Tobirama didn't warp to a safe spot or bring a KB.



well for starters that fight was off pannelled,  
however based  on the outcome, tobirama failed to tag madara, his sneak attack failed, and madaras reactions and *physical* reflexes made tobiramas look pathetic 

hence why iim emphasising on the mind, it was a major factor that aided tobirma into marking juubito, 

unless youre telling me that juubitos reactions are inferior to RT madaras? which makes no sense, when 
and was also *physically able to use his chakra arms and TSB shield to protect himself* before the attack even landed, 

this feat that puts him well above madara, 
juubi jin sensing aided with ridiculously fast juubi jin shunshin thats far superior to RT madaras shoould realistically put juubito above madara in reactions anyways​​


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## Icegaze (Feb 19, 2015)

I think If Tobirama team have a brain Tobirama would go for Kakashi
While itachi goes for Gai. Since itachi can camp he is better suited to fight Gai . Speed battle with Gai can be abit dangerous 
Either way Tobirama team should win . They all have the ability in this battle to 1 shot each other quite quickly . Each have dam near instantaneous attacks

This could end in a second 

Do note that minato had a mark close to juudara and got trolled and gai fastest punch got trolled 

However juubito was hit several times by Tobirama and Sm naruto . So no debate juudara is physically faster than juubito 

Gai is fastesr than Tobirama . He however can't stlp Tobirama from making a clone which is all Tobirama needs to avoid Gai


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> I have always been under the impression that tobirama managed to mark juubito but that was all due to the expense of his whole body, and juubito being mindless helped him do so much easily
> 
> however that still doesnt change the fact that  tobirama tagged juubito 5 times, and that is reaction feat that is damn impressive
> 
> ...



That's why you're wrong here. In an entire battle you can make the argument that Juubito being uncontrollable effected his performance but this wasn't a full battle: *EMS Sasuke tracked his shunshin*
It's literally one battle panel in which Juubito had exerted his full speed in a single shunshin. So the uncontrolled argument is useless here. Im not saying KCM Minato wouldn't do better in an entire battle set, but against a single shunshin , Tobirama did much better . Even if controlled Juubito shunshined towards Tobirama in that matter , he would still be tagged . The difference between being tagged 6 times and being tagged once is ridiculously large. Not to mention this Obito wasn't too dumb as he attempted to avoid Hirzuens Shiruken Justu lol, showing some type of defensive consciousness. 

Do you know what a shunshin is? Juubitos flying speed doesn't equal his shunshin, nor has it been hinted to or has the feats to. Notice also how Tobirama had to react to Juubito off the jump while Sasuke had an entire battle to focus on his movements( Extra EZ with a Sharingan) which is exactly what he commented. Then you have to add on the fact that Sasuke was merely tracking his speed at a larger distance( war larger then the distance of Juubitos first shunshin) from a megazoid and then missed his swing by far with BSM Naruto backing him up from the side. 

Let me make this clear to you right now. Minato , Naruto and Sasuke were unable to even perceive Juubitos first shunshin, as they couldn't move at the sight of his attack to do anything:
*EMS Sasuke tracked his shunshin*
All Minato could do was say fast after Juubito had already moved through the Kage. He would have been absolutely hopeless in a situation.  & now we have to realize that Minato could hardly react to Obitos ARMSPEED in Cqc, in which he had his arm cut off and was tagged before he warped. There is usually a large difference between Armspeed and shunshin especially when said individual has massive amounts of chakra focused towards their shunshin. Which is exactly why Itachi can react to KCM Naruto in CQC: *EMS Sasuke tracked his shunshin*
But KCM Naruto troll V2 Ay like this with his shunshin ?: *EMS Sasuke tracked his shunshin*

Not only was Juubito in his snake form( where the juubi was outright rejecting his body), but Naruto and Sasuke were unable to react to Juubito not only outright rushing them, but also his speed being reduced by Juubito pushing through a ribcage Sussano: *EMS Sasuke tracked his shunshin*
And then it wasn't high speed movement with the release of chakra but merely snake Juubito moving his ugly body lol. In even in that sence both Naruto and Sasuke were unable to react until after Juubito had hit them( kinda like Tobirama) and Naruto was still able to only get off a single move, while Tobirama was able to get off how many ? Which would make his reactions and handspeed movement how many times faster then KCM Naruto? And if you're reactions are that much better( in CQC off the jump) than someone who canonically reacts to V2 Ay then Gai is screwed.

Using clones is to slow for a controlled juubi jin with a sharingan and Rinnegan yes. That is not Gai and that is tiers superior to Gai. I don't understand why you think Gai = Juubito all of a sudden. Then there's the fact that alive Tobirama> Edo Tobirama. So his KB here are going to be even faster btw.

Madara was clearly fucking around here as that same version of Madara could react to EE on more than one occasion. So either you believe that EE is = to 7th gate rush or that Gai was fucking around. Pick one.

Madara was also on the defense( unlike Tobirama) and was able to block and dodge his attacks pretty easily( Unlike Juubito who was tagged 6 times unaware). It's also to note that he never attempted to attack Gai at that moment. Don't say " Gai never allowed him to," because Gai's 7th gated attacks would have not budged a juubi jin, and Madara would have easily taken a blow to land a blow If Gai was truly that fast . 

Plus I don't know why you are so inclined to assume that Juubimadara> Juubito in reflexes? I mean JuubiMadara is lacking sage mode and the Sharigan.. I mean Juubito and Juubimadara shouldn't be too far away.

Who ever said Gai isn't landing blows on Tobirama ? He can if he wants, he just gets the Juubito treatment as I know you aren't telling me Gai is faster than a juubi Jin .

Gai cannot pop a KB faster then Tobirama can move his arms. His movement speed in general supersedes how fast KB pop. KB usually take a blow, fall back and then pop. Gai is going to CQC run through a clone, but gets tagged right before it pops. It's as simple as that game over for Gai after that .

?He can physically react to Ay as in fold his arms

Not only is it heavily implied that Gai was using CQC rinnegan techniques, but it's outright laughable for anyone here to take that instance seriously and know it was riddled with plot. I mean if Tobirama was outclassed he could have easily, warped away, or he would have been smart enough to enter a fight with sage Madara with a KB anyway.

Nobodies claiming Madara is > to Juubito.

And considering RT Madara has sage sencing, flash Sussano, limbo, and various gravity abilities. I wouldn't put it past him to trash Tobirama with his massive plot shield also. Pretty sure even if Tobirama landed that Kunai slash, it wouldn't have amounted to shit( kunai at a perfect sage ?) . The fact that Tobirama even attacked Madara with a kunai instead of tagging him and coming back with a teamate with superior firepower(basically anyone ) as well as the no KB support( his own Justu and he's claimed to be a genius), just destroyed that entire scene for me . If you  use that , that's up to you. I chose to use his feat of grabbing the juubi ball before Minato and tagging Juubito .


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## sabre320 (Feb 19, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> That's why you're wrong here. In an entire battle you can make the argument that Juubito being uncontrollable effected his performance but this wasn't a full battle: *EMS Sasuke tracked his shunshin*
> It's literally one battle panel in which Juubito had exerted his full speed in a single shunshin. So the uncontrolled argument is useless here. Im not saying KCM Minato wouldn't do better in an entire battle set, but against a single shunshin , Tobirama did much better . Even if controlled Juubito shunshined towards Tobirama in that matter , he would still be tagged . The difference between being tagged 6 times and being tagged once is ridiculously large. Not to mention this Obito wasn't too dumb as he attempted to avoid Hirzuens Shiruken Justu lol, showing some type of defensive consciousness.
> 
> Do you know what a shunshin is? Juubitos flying speed doesn't equal his shunshin, nor has it been hinted to or has the feats to. Notice also how Tobirama had to react to Juubito off the jump while Sasuke had an entire battle to focus on his movements( Extra EZ with a Sharingan) which is exactly what he commented. Then you have to add on the fact that Sasuke was merely tracking his speed at a larger distance( war larger then the distance of Juubitos first shunshin) from a megazoid and then missed his swing by far with BSM Naruto backing him up from the side.
> ...



So let me get this straight having control of you bijuu does not affect speed and performance....
so theres no difference between 3tailed narutos,kcm narutos and bm narutos speed and strength? same bijuu...

and obito was indeed mindless and unstable hence was not thinking of any counterattacks while attacking...hence him getting tagged by hashiramas gates...and him getting binded by hashiramas clones base mokuton hell even after getting binded he did not even attempt to break the mokuton or counterattack he was literally standing there .....then tobirama starts talking completes 2 sentences and more tags come out and tag juubito and then hiruzen shunshins away you really think juubito is so low that he cant react through this process or is slow slow that a mokubunshin can blitz him with base mokuton? not to mention the tags come out of tobiramas body he does not need to physically tag juubito..

though i agree madara wasnt serious against 7th gate gai..


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> So let me get this straight having control of you bijuu does not affect speed and performance....
> so theres no difference between 3tailed narutos,kcm narutos and bm narutos speed and strength? same bijuu...
> 
> and obito was indeed mindless and unstable hence was not thinking of any counterattacks while attacking...hence him getting tagged by hashiramas gates...and him getting binded by hashiramas clones base mokuton hell even after getting binded he did not even attempt to break the mokuton or counterattack he was literally standing there .....then tobirama starts talking completes 2 sentences and more tags come out and tag juubito and then hiruzen shunshins away you really think juubito is so low that he cant react through this process or is slow slow that a mokubunshin can blitz him with base mokuton? not to mention the tags come out of tobiramas body he does not need to physically tag juubito..
> ...



Those are all different because they don't have 100% of the kyuubis chakra at their disposal like Obito, and I doubt Obito needs full juubi control to pull of a shunshin being honest. Strength? Never said anything about it . Or do I need to add on the fact that controlled Juubito wasn't even using his shunshin or...

Did you read anything I said or did you just start typing whatever made you feel happy lmao? In a battle situation yeah Tobirama would get murked, but what you seem to not understand is that after Juubito had activated his shunshin he had reached his full speed. He doesn't need to be conscious of anything, he was already in the middle of a shunshin. He got tagged during that shunshin so controlled or not he still would have been tagged. Nice try though. 

If Tobiramas body was made out of tags that he didn't forcibly activate himself, the entire area would have been littered with tags seeing as Juubito split his body completely in Half. Juubito would have a lot more then 5 tags, and they wouldn't stick on his body in that matter regardless . That's honestly the biggest accusation ever . Not to mention Tobirama cleanly placed an FTG tag in the middle of Obito's back regardless meaning he reacted to the shunshin..

Edit: Let me also add that Tobirama upper half was torn apart( by Juubitos right side) yet Juubito had a tag on his left leg..? That logically wouldn't make sense in any type of form seeing as the tags wouldn't spill out and land there ?


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## sabre320 (Feb 19, 2015)

obito sealed the juubi inside himself just like the kyuubi in naruto when he did not have control over kyuubi he could not draw its complete strength...even shunshin is enhanced geatly over various stages e.g v2 naruto is slower then kcm naruto and in turn is lower then bm naruto...

um did you forget what minato told kakashi if you dodnot have enough perception you are liable to counterattacks when rushing in with shunshin aka chidori..juubito rushed in at tobirama barely coherent he had reached full speed but was not thinking of getting counterattacked was basically going berserk hence him getting tagged by hashiramas gates..

did you conveniently ignore this portion?

and him getting binded by hashiramas clones base mokuton hell even after getting binded he did not even attempt to break the mokuton or counterattack he was literally standing there .....then tobirama starts talking completes 2 sentences and more tags come out and tag juubito and then hiruzen shunshins away you really think juubito is so low that he cant react through this process or is slow slow that a mokubunshin can blitz him with base mokuton?

tobiramas body is not made out of tags his jutsu involves edos materializing paper tags that fly out and stick to the target once the jutsu is mentally activated he does not need to touch juubito multiple times with his hand..


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## Veracity (Feb 19, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> obito sealed the juubi inside himself just like the kyuubi in naruto when he did not have control over kyuubi he could not draw its complete strength...even shunshin is enhanced geatly over various stages e.g v2 naruto is slower then kcm naruto and in turn is lower then bm naruto...
> 
> um did you forget what minato told kakashi if you dodnot have enough perception you are liable to counterattacks when rushing in with shunshin aka chidori..juubito rushed in at tobirama barely coherent he had reached full speed but was not thinking of getting counterattacked was basically going berserk hence him getting tagged by hashiramas gates..
> 
> ...



Those states also vary heavily dependent on how much chakra of the Bjuii they can use. But I'm not argue this cause it's pointless. So we'll go with that you said. Can you show me a panel where controlled Juubito rushed an opponent with a high speed dash(shunshin)?

Obito had the Sharingan/Rinnegan. The perception logic is also trash because Minato for warned Kakashi about being hit after his shunshin was done, and not being able to use his chidori properly; not being able to thrust  at the right times. Juubito  was tagged during his shunshin, and was clearly perceptive to utilize his black Jinton properly, so no.

Why do you keep bringing up the gates and Moukton instances here ? Juubito was not moving... Against Tobirama he was already mid-shunshin. Completely different scenarios. You're attempting to use that to claim that Juubito wasn't conscious enough to react to Tobiramas attack, but you keep ignoring the fact that Juubito had already began his shunshin when he was tagged. It wasn't just normal CQC movement . At that moment he didn't have the ability to not move or act dumb. His movements had already begun, and once a shunshin starts, it maintains its highest speed and doesn't get closer till it's over..

Did I not just explain this? 
: Edit: Let me also add that Tobirama upper half was torn apart( by Juubitos right side) yet Juubito had a tag on his left leg..? That logically wouldn't make sense in any type of form seeing as the tags wouldn't spill out and land there ? 


+ the fact that if his body was made completely of tags, wouldn't they be all over the ground ? And wouldn't he have more then just 5? Wouldn't he have more tags in similar areas ?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 19, 2015)

I don't believe Juubito could even react to Tobirama's Hiraishin used on BM Minato and BSM Naruto if it wasn't for the fact that Juubito even stated he was going to be more cautious and defend his weak spot after being slammed by SM Naruto's Rasengan, so it's clear that he was more concerned about guarding his backside and anticipated the attack ahead of time due to BM Minato and BSM Naruto gathering their chakra and Senjutsu for that Massive Rasengan.

 But then again, that's my take on it.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 20, 2015)

7 Gate Guy can fight them both alone due to his speed. He is much faster than aither Tobirama, or Itachi. They need to kill Guy before he can fully use his 7 Gate speed and taijutsu.

If they dont, 7 Gate Guy solos.

Come at me bro's.


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## ARGUS (Feb 20, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> That's why you're wrong here. In an entire battle you can make the argument that Juubito being uncontrollable effected his performance but this wasn't a full battle: aking damage from B


Being mindless was a major factor contributing to juubito getting marked, 
not to mention that tobirama lost his entire body in-order to accomplish that, 



> It's literally one battle panel in which Juubito had exerted his full speed in a single shunshin.


You do know that it wasnt even shunshin that was used, 
*Juubito blitzed tobirama through his mere attack*, not his movement speed 
so no juubito could still have attacked faster 



> So the uncontrolled argument is useless here


No its not, and the example of RT Madara clearly proves that 



> . Im not saying KCM Minato wouldn't do better in an entire battle set, but against a single shunshin , Tobirama did much better


Tobirama did better only in the instant regarding the TSB 
against juubitos shunshin both of them were doing just as fine, infact based on tobiramas compliments to minato, its most likely the other way around 



> . Even if controlled Juubito shunshined towards Tobirama in that matter , he would still be tagged . The difference between being tagged 6 times and being tagged once is ridiculously large.


No he couldnt have, absolutely no way, 
the main reason why he managed to tag juubito this many times was due to the fact that he was marked, 
once juubito started guarding himself, *tobirama himself states that he'll be annihilated, * regardless oof the fact that he was marked, 
with a shunshin he would recieve the same treatment as KCM Minato, only this time, itll be his head that will be taken off



> *Not to mention this Obito wasn't too dumb as he attempted to avoid Hirzuens Shiruken Justu lol, showing some type of defensive consciousness*.


Avoid? *he was drilling through them like a chainsaw*, and *whooped his head off *
there was no defense there at all, just a flat out painful rape 



> Do you know what a shunshin is? Juubitos flying speed doesn't equal his shunshin, nor has it been hinted to or has the feats to.


Yes i do know what a shunshin is, 
juubitos flying sppeed at the instant did equal his top speed, 
flying or not, shunshin is a teleportation jutsu that allows one to access the users top speed right from the get go, and that was exactly what juubito used, 
characters who have flight doont have to be on ground to do such thing, so that refutes ur argument



> There is usually a large difference between Armspeed and shunshin especially when said individual has massive amounts of chakra focused towards their shunshin. Which is exactly why Itachi can react to KCM Naruto in CQC: aking damage from B
> But KCM Naruto troll V2 Ay like this with his shunshin ?: aking damage from B


Naruto in KCM was fighting itachi at nowhere near his top speed, faster speed = faster striking speed 
unless youre telling me that Itachi = KCM naruto interms of speed? which literally makess no sense

and V2 Ay was not trolled, it required narutos fastest speed, to evade Ays fastest speeed, 
and that was done at the brink of time, 


> Not only was Juubito in his snake form( where the juubi was outright rejecting his body), but Naruto and Sasuke were unable to react to Juubito not only outright rushing them, but also his speed being reduced by Juubito pushing through a ribcage Sussano: aking damage from B


They were able to see him, and track him, which is reaction 
however they were *physically unable* to evade him, and got physically overwhelmed, 
doesnt mean that they got blitzed 

and as for his speed being reduced by going through susanoo? i doubt it, he got both of them at exactly the same time, if the above really was the case then he  wouldve goot to sasuke much after he got to naruto, juubitos attack foddered the susanoo within a nano second 




> and Naruto was still able to only get off a single move, while Tobirama was able to get off how many ? Which would make his reactions and handspeed movement how many times faster then KCM Naruto? And if you're reactions are that much better( in CQC off the jump) than someone who canonically reacts to V2 Ay then Gai is screwed.


This is turning into wank now, 
naruto was able to use his chakra arms to attach to minato and the latter was able to use FTG before juubito could strike, thats a very impressive feat, 

not to mention that *Guy was landing many clean hits on Juubi Jin Madara, and was forcing him to block instead of evading*, whereas Tobirama got fodderred  by RT Madara (a much weaker and slower madara) without even tagging him once,
hell his FTG based attack was *physically evaded,* and thats sheerly thanks to Hashiramas SM, which is much much inferior to juubi jin sensing/reflexes added with rinnegan/EMS 



> Using clones is to slow for a controlled juubi jin with a sharingan and Rinnegan yes. That is not Gai and that is tiers superior to Gai.


If TObirama himself is too slow for Guy, then clones are going to be much slower yes, 



> I don't understand why you think Gai = Juubito all of a sudden.


Never ever have i claimed such thing 



> Then there's the fact that alive Tobirama> Edo Tobirama. So his KB here are going to be even faster btw.


Yeah sure, but fast enough to compete with a guy who landed clean hits on juubi jin madara? 
and fast enough to grant him the speed superior to Guy? and tagging him before he poofs the clones first? seriously doubt it 



> Madara was clearly fucking around here *as that same version of Madara could react to EE on more than one occasion. *So either you believe that EE is = to 7th gate rush or that Gai was fucking around. Pick one.


THat is not a valid excuse, madara had to block instead of evade, and was unable to stop guy from using hirudora on him, however that doesnt mean that he got blitzed, it only just shows that guy prevented himself from getting eviscerated by attacking madara before he attacks him 

and as for EE? Lol No, 
Madara was struggling with his absolute limits, he was able to react sure, but that was only on its first strike (which is the slowest by far) 
physically however he had no chance of keeping up  *and was getting smacked left and right *

. 


> Plus I don't know why you are so inclined to assume that Juubimadara> Juubito in reflexes? I mean JuubiMadara is lacking sage mode and the Sharigan.. I mean Juubito and Juubimadara shouldn't be too far away.


Every JJ has the rikudo senjutsu, which is evident by their TSB, so that really isnt the problem, 
as for sharingan Lol, madara has his original rinnegan which is far superior to an MS based on manga 

as for why JJ Madara >> Juubito in speed and reflexes, its really simple, 
Base Madaras shunshin >> Obitos, 
add the JJ boost, 
and we have JJ madaras speed >> JJ Obitos 



> Who ever said Gai isn't landing blows on Tobirama ? He can if he wants, he just gets the Juubito treatment as I know you aren't telling me Gai is faster than a juubi Jin .


Nah, Guy is not reaciieving the juubito treatment if hes not marked which isnt happening whilst hes on the 7th gate, 
Guys reflexes and striking speed are superior, hence why he'll be thee one landing the blows before tobirama does, its really that simple 




> •He can physically react to Ay as in fold his arms


Based on? 



> Not only is it heavily implied that Gai was using CQC rinnegan techniques, but it's outright laughable for anyone here to take that instance seriously and know it was riddled with plot. I mean if Tobirama was outclassed he could have easily, warped away, or he would have been smart enough to enter a fight with sage Madara with a KB anyway.


TObirama was smart enough to attempt to catch madara off guard with a marked kunai and teleporting right behind madara to land his blows, 

yet madara was able to sense and evade his attack with ease, and ended up raping him with chakra rods the next time tobirama attempted to attack 
madara was clearly on a level of his own, and guy performed much better against a much superior madara, hence why guys feats are above tobriamas in taijutsu and CQC 



> Nobodies claiming Madara is > to Juubito.


Good, i just providded the example just in case, 



> And considering RT Madara has sage sencing, flash Sussano, limbo, and various gravity abilities. I wouldn't put it past him to trash Tobirama with his massive plot shield also. Pretty sure even if Tobirama landed that Kunai slash, it wouldn't have amounted to shit( kunai at a perfect sage ?) .


Hashirmas SM doesnt grant immennse durability, it grants great regenerative abilities similar to byakugou,  
and if the kunai did land on him, tobirama might have a shot at marking him, which RT madara isnt physically capable of evading  

there was no plot shield, 
a real rinnegan, susanoo and hashiramas power together are well above tobirama alone 



> The fact that Tobirama even attacked Madara with a kunai instead of tagging him and coming back with a teamate with superior firepower(basically anyone ) as well as the no KB support( his own Justu and he's claimed to be a genius), just destroyed that entire scene for me . If you  use that , that's up to you. I chose to use his feat of grabbing the juubi ball before Minato and tagging Juubito .



the only thing thats being used is that tobirama was less reflexive  and had an inferior striking speed to rt madara, which is what the manga has showed,  
doesnt matter how tobirama could have fought him because at the end of the day the manga has showed us that in the above department he is inferior, 

new feats > old feats, 
juubi jin madara >>> RT madara, juubi jin madara >> Juubito 
and guy fared off much better, thats why in a CQC confrontation he is above him,  

however i agree that in a full fight he would lose to tobirama especially when intel is full​​


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## Icegaze (Feb 20, 2015)

Exceedingly long posts 
I don't see how Gai is so fast he can prevent Tobirama from making clones 
Which is all tpbirama needs to win 

Do note Tobirama is much slower than juubito and thanks to hirahsin he was able to tag him well more than once


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## StarWanderer (Feb 20, 2015)

> I don't see how Gai is so fast he can prevent Tobirama from making clones



7 Gate Gai is fast enough to take out Tobirama before he can make any clones, or FTG away.


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## ARGUS (Feb 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Exceedingly long posts
> I don't see how Gai is so fast he can prevent Tobirama from making clones
> Which is all tpbirama needs to win
> 
> Do note Tobirama is much slower than juubito and thanks to hirahsin he was able to tag him well more than once



Our argument is not about a 1v1 fight 
It's about guy having superior CQC and taijutsu to tobirama 
And never have I stated that tobirama is not forming clones 
My first post in this thread confirms that


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> 7 Gate Gai is fast enough to take out Tobirama before he can make any clones, or FTG away.



 This. In Base, he honestly can't do anything against Tobirama with FTG or clones considering Tobirama did fairly decent against Alive Madara who wrecked SM Naruto without his Rinnegan. That's an impressive feat IMO.

 Though, the battle really all comes down to whether or not Gai can activate the 7th Gate. If he can, he roflstomps. If not, then the Gai and Kakashi loses.

 I see this fight going either way, mid difficulty at the very least.


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## Veracity (Feb 20, 2015)

Tobiramas handspeed tagged Juubito 6 times mid shunshin. Clones are > to original but Edo is also < to alive version. So in what world would a clone be to slow, to take a hit and then counterattack against Gai? 

I mean Gai is = to Juubito in speed ? Seems to be what you are constantly implying .

Gai only got hits off on Madara because he let him. Madara is still only a decent amount stronger then Juubito( way less then double) and Tobirama tagged Juubito SIXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX times. Even if assuming Gai was faster than Juubito, all he needs is one tag in Gai and he has proven fast enough .

Madara blocked because he wanted to? He could have easily pulled up a black shield and blocked Gai from entering regardless considering he could do the same against red aura Gai who is >>>>>>>>> to 7th gated Gai at an even closer range. So if if Madara was cnaoically fast enough to easily pull up a shield against an opponent far faster then 7th gated Gai, then he could have retaliated against 7th gated Gai... He just chose not to..


That's so wrong lmao. And you just proved my point right there. You said that the first EE is the slowest? Why does it matter if it's still FARRRRR faster than anything 7th gated Gai can do ? It only shows that Madara easily conld have reacted 7th gated Gai. The time it takes for Madara to pull an entire black shield around his body is longer then it takes to swing his staff. & it's also to note that Madara only got smacked around cause he got caught off guard once and incapacitated. 

Except Madaras original Rinnegan doesn't sport a level of physical pre-cog like the Sharingan which Juubito had. 


Except nobody said anything about Juubito = Madara in speed. I actually want you to find a single panel where one eyed Madara attempted to Shunshin or dash at an opponent. It's hard because he never does. He's a stationary fighter where he overwhelms his opponents with sheer power, he hardly ever used his speed. 

His striking speed and dashing speed are 6x faster than Juubito ? Cause that's what you need to dash through Tobirama without getting tagged once.

Based on this: *and was getting smacked left and right *

Don't say Tobirama was smart in that instance cause I've already labeled all the dumb stuff he did.

• The first time Tobirama attacked he relied on momentum not handspeed .
• second time we don't know what happened because it was off panaled. Serious Madara could have attacked with flash Sussano, gravity abilities and limbo. He could have even got an attack off but Madara could have regenerated it . We don't know. 

That's what I mean by kunai at a prefect sage cause he can Regen.  Maybe he didn't get a chance to tag him because Madara has flash Sussano? Gravity powers and limbo? All of which have insane feats.

I agree that Gai can win if Tobirama has no knowledge. If Tobirama has any knowledge  of gates he wins.


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## Icegaze (Feb 21, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Our argument is not about a 1v1 fight
> It's about guy having superior CQC and taijutsu to tobirama
> And never have I stated that tobirama is not forming clones
> My first post in this thread confirms that



I know but whether  1 on 1 or 2 vs 2 
If each individual's fighter on the other end is stronfer in that match up they will win 

Itachi can take on Gai or Kakashi. Tobirama can take on Gai or kakashi

Dust cloud created from 7 gate gives 2 clone spammer perfect cover for a bunshin trap . If Gai runs into that he is tagged or genjutsu'd . Kakashi kamui is slower than hirashin 

And he needs a big one to take out susanoo. 

Tobirama with Hirashin provides perfect support for itachi and itachi provides perfect support for Tobirama 

Kamui is the most dangerous thing here howveer these 2 can not only avoid it they can counter and take out Kakashi . In 1 move equally


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## StarWanderer (Feb 21, 2015)

> I mean Gai is = to Juubito in speed



if we are going by feats? Yes, 7 Gate Gai is faster than Juubito. Because he could pressure and surprise Juubidara, who is faster than Juubito, with his speed and dodge Juubidara's blitz (he couldnt do to him the same he did to SM Edo Minato).



> Gai only got hits off on Madara because he let him.



Thats a serious statement out there. Can you provide a proof? 



> Madara blocked because he wanted to? He could have easily pulled up a black shield and blocked Gai from entering regardless considering he could do the same against red aura Gai who is >>>>>>>>> to 7th gated Gai at an even closer range. So if if Madara was cnaoically fast enough to easily pull up a shield against an opponent far faster then 7th gated Gai, then he could have retaliated against 7th gated Gai... He just chose not to..



He underestimated Gai and thats why he went 7 Gate and pressured Juubidara with a taijutsu, not giving him a chance to use any of his jutsu. 

Also, 1st Evening Elephant punch is not many times faster than 7 Gate.

And lol at "easily pull up a shield".

Also, there was no sense for him to hold himself back. If he could blitz Gai just as he blitzed SM Minato, for example, he would have done it. But he couldnt. He was surprised by Gai's speed and he was pressured.


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## sabre320 (Feb 21, 2015)

Gai cannot utilize hirudara against itachi or tobirama because the aoe will catch gai and kakashi and both will be incapacitated...


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## Icegaze (Feb 21, 2015)

Wow that's a weak argument saber
Why on earth would the AoE catch all of them? Why killer bee can cross a mountain range in a single jump 

Gai team looses but certainly not because of that


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## sabre320 (Feb 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Wow that's a weak argument saber
> Why on earth would the AoE catch all of them? Why killer bee can cross a mountain range in a single jump
> 
> Gai team looses but certainly not because of that



Gai is predominately a cqc fighter to land a hit on a ftg user like tobirama he will have to use hirudara in close range to use the aoe in a hope of overwhelming tobiramas marker range a hirudara from range is futile and will exhaust gai..same goes with itachi who can probably amaterasu hirudara from range..hirudara has aoe enough to cover part of the turtle island ..only hirudara has any hope of harming itachis complete sussano from range tobirama can easily teleport itachi out of its trajectory..


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## Trojan (Feb 21, 2015)

Nah, the aoe was not a problem for him in any battle before, and it won't be now.


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## Icegaze (Feb 21, 2015)

I get what your saying 
Howveer if Kakashi isn't the target of hirudora he would easily get out of its range . 

He got Doton, speed and kamui to escape . 

The blast also wouldn't hurt Gai if it's evaded . Only if it's countered would it hurt Gai. The air blast has to hit something before it explodes . If Tobirama avoids it in CQC . It would simply keep traveling and blow off at a far enough distance to harm no one


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## sabre320 (Feb 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I get what your saying
> Howveer if Kakashi isn't the target of hirudora he would easily get out of its range .
> 
> He got Doton, speed and kamui to escape .
> ...



and if it hits itachis complete sussano with yata?


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## Icegaze (Feb 21, 2015)

Then like madara susanoo it will carry it off then explode . We already saw that in the manga . People getting knocked out by their own move doesn't happen . Unless said move is countered like madara
Did. Susanoo can't counter it . It will only tank it 
Itachi would come out just fine however if Gai follows with a second one itachi might just die


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## sabre320 (Feb 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Then like madara susanoo it will carry it off then explode . We already saw that in the manga . People getting knocked out by their own move doesn't happen . Unless said move is countered like madara
> Did. Susanoo can't counter it . It will only tank it
> Itachi would come out just fine however if Gai follows with a second one itachi might just die



yata counters hirudara and it blows up at contact with yata madara was hit from behind with hirudara


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## Icegaze (Feb 21, 2015)

your right 
I really didn't know 
Good one


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## Jad (Feb 21, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> yata counters hirudara and it blows up at contact with yata madara was hit from behind with hirudara



Look at the scene again. Madara was hit in the front with Hirudora. He was facing Hachibi and Gai.

Also who cares if Yata is out? Hirudora is an omnidirectional blast, it spreads all around. Sasunoo is going to get tossed like a paper bag and flip around like it's in a washing machine, and the part below Sasunoo will crack open from the pressure. I consider the under part of Sasuno the weakest, while there is potential to be chakara there, it would be pretty weak. Heck, there are scenes I can post where there is nothing beneath Sasuno (unless you have feet). E.g. Gaara grabbing Madara from underneath, or Sasuke getting splashed on his feet while in Sasuno.

Plus if this is Itachi alive who took on Sasuke, he has limited time as well, much so than Gai. I mean a healthy Sasuke was filling the effects of Sasuno for first time use pretty badly. Itachi (being ill) will be pushing it to death like in the Hebi fight. I believe Gai can out last him based on feats and portrayal (stamina/resilient freak - 8 Gates remember).


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## Icegaze (Feb 21, 2015)

Actually jad
I just looked at it 
Madara was hit from behind


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## Jad (Feb 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Actually jad
> I just looked at it
> Madara was hit from behind



Are you sure?

Naruto appears here in front of Hachibi and Gai, thus he is face to face with Madara [1][2]. Meaning Madara is facing Naruto, Hachibi and Gai. Madara's Sasuno has two heads facing forward and back by the way.


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## Icegaze (Feb 21, 2015)

Thanks jad the panel confused me 
Was from the front 

On the topic though . Itachi V4 susanoo is quite abit bigger and has more layers . It should tank it


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