# Naruto vs Ei



## richard lewis (Oct 11, 2013)

Location, Mind state, and distance the same as when Ei fought sasuke

Knowledge - reputation

This is current naruto but he cannot use kurama's chakra, he starts in SM


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## richard lewis (Oct 11, 2013)

I've seen some people claiming Ei can blitz SM naruto.... I don't see how Ei is any faster than his father so I don;t see that happening considering naruto dodged sandime's fastest attack.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 11, 2013)

Ei blitzes him without much resistance. He nearly killed KCM Naruto several times.


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## Kai (Oct 11, 2013)

SM precognition is overrated here. SM Naruto doesn't have nearly the movement speed to keep up with his precognition skill. He gets absolutely played with by top tier speedsters (Minato, A, KCM)


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## Psp123789 (Oct 11, 2013)

Naruto makes 20 clones, Ei enters V2 and tries to blitz, the clone he attacks intercepts the attack with a COR, while Ei is hurt another clone then smashes a rasenshuriken into Ei's body and kills him.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 11, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Naruto makes 20 clones, Ei enters V2 and tries to blitz, the clone he attacks intercepts the attack with a COR, while Ei is hurt another clone then smashes a rasenshuriken into Ei's body and kills him.


He can't react. Sasuke couldn't even perceive his speed with superior pre-cognition.

There will be no Rasengans made. He's immediately blitzed before the clones even begin manifesting chakra.

With only reputation knowledge it's ridiculous that you suggest he summons 20 clones.


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## egressmadara (Oct 11, 2013)

Naruto's ability in SM has grown greatly compared to when he has fought Pain, but it's not enough for him to beat down the Raikage. Without his clones already besides him out in the battlefield, Raikage is going to run circles around and punt him around until Naruto loses consciousness.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 11, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Ei blitzes him without much resistance. He nearly killed KCM Naruto several times.


'Nearly killed KCM Naruto several times'? No, his blows were continually BLOCKED by KCM Naruto. And KCM Naruto admitted Sage Mode sensing is superior to KCM Sensing and was able to defeat the Sandaime Raikage who is stronger than A by several amounts.

Hell, A pretty much can't hurt him too since he could tank blows from Kurama, as well as a front charge from a boss Rhino (he caught its horn but had to tank the massive amount of weight just being stopped due to the kinetic energy exchange), as well as Deva Path's Shinra Tensei's. 

A attacks, SM Naruto senses the danger, dodges, and smashes a SM Rasengan into his back or side and then follows up with a Futon: Rasenshuriken while A is stunned or injured to finish him off.


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## richard lewis (Oct 11, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Ei blitzes him without much resistance. He nearly killed KCM Naruto several times.



Naruto wasn't trying to hurt Ei, however Ei was seriously considering killing naruto. I hope your not insinuating that Ei could beat KCM naruto.



Kai said:


> SM precognition is overrated here. SM Naruto doesn't have nearly the movement speed to keep up with his precognition skill. He gets absolutely played with by top tier speedsters (Minato, A, KCM)



naruto kept up with the 3rd raikage so I don't see why he couldn't keep up with Ei?


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## richard lewis (Oct 11, 2013)

egressmadara said:


> Naruto's ability in SM has grown greatly compared to when he has fought Pain, but it's not enough for him to beat down the Raikage. Without his clones already besides him out in the battlefield, Raikage is going to run circles around and punt him around until Naruto loses consciousness.



Naruto can make clones while in battle you know, he doesn't need to have then prepped ahead of time.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 11, 2013)

Kai said:


> SM precognition is overrated here. SM Naruto doesn't have nearly the movement speed to keep up with his precognition skill. He gets absolutely played with by top tier speedsters (Minato, A, KCM)


He went toe to toe in Sage Mode with a speedster compared directly to A and won, Kai. How is that 'overrated'?


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## Psp123789 (Oct 11, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> He can't react. Sasuke couldn't even perceive his speed with superior pre-cognition.


Naruto in sage mode is physically faster than sasuke and his pre cog is better. The only time EI was able to blitz sasuke is when he escaped the sharingans vision. Naruto defends himself from this tactic by surrounding himself with sm clones. Also his pre cog works even without the use of his vision. So your point Is irrelevant. Besides Ei wont even be hitting the real naruto with his initial blitz. 



> There will be no Rasengans made. He's immediately blitzed before the clones even begin manifesting chakra.


Naruto can make a rasengan instantly  SM Rasengan Ei has to enter V2 first and then speed towards naruto. He isn't doing this before Naruto can do one hand seal. Besides how is raikage going to instantly blitz naruto when he's surrounded by clones with equal reactions to the original?



> With only reputation knowledge it's ridiculous that you suggest he summons 20 clones.


It doesn't matter what kind of knowledge he has, it's in character for Naruto to summon clones when he's about to fight someone. Also from reputation Naruto should know that EI is the fastest guy alive. So that's another reason for him to summon clones at the start.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 11, 2013)

Naruto doesn't stand a chance. Even if he is able to detect A's path of attack and evade it, the Raikage is much faster and can change directions to pursue him before he can react. The 3rd Raikage is not an analogous opponent because he never displayed the ability to move as fast as his son (who dodged Amaterasu and successfully got Sasuke's back).

This isn't a situation where Naruto can just take a gamble on reacting to an attack coming at him in a straight line; the 4th can move around to his blind spots freely and faster than he can physically counter. The moment Naruto dodges, the Raikage will come after him and Naruto won't have time to do anything.

One chop to the throat and Naruto is down for the count.


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## richard lewis (Oct 11, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Naruto doesn't stand a chance. Even if he is able to detect A's path of attack and evade it, the Raikage is much faster and can change directions to pursue him before he can react. The 3rd Raikage is not an analogous opponent because he never displayed the ability to move as fast as his son (who dodged Amaterasu and successfully got Sasuke's back).
> 
> This isn't a situation where Naruto can just take a gamble on reacting to an attack coming at him in a straight line; the 4th can move around to his blind spots freely and faster than he can physically counter. The moment Naruto dodges, the Raikage will come after him and Naruto won't have time to do anything.
> 
> One chop to the throat and Naruto is down for the count.



how do your figure that Ei is any faster than his father? they both appeared to be about the same to me, Ei might be slightly faster but I don't think the gap is that big. I'm not saying naruto can go head to head with him, but naruto should be able to avoid his initial blitz especially considering even a blood lust Ei doesn't start in max speed. Naruto could create a smoke cloud to break up los and then set up a counter attack. Ei won't be able to simply blitz him.


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2013)

I always believed this match came down to two things. Could Naruto land a deadly blow on A before A goes V2 and can Naruto react to V2 A's Shunshin enough to not get lolblitz.


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## richard lewis (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I always believed this match came down to two things. Could Naruto land a deadly blow on A before A goes V2 and can Naruto react to V2 A's Shunshin enough to not get lolblitz.



In reality there no such thing as V1 V2..... Ei can control the amount of chakra he puts in his raiton shroud. The more chakra he uses the faster/stronger he gets, but it's not a new transformation/version. I don't see why Ei's father when at max speed would be any slower than Ei at max speed since they both have around the same amount of chakra thus their raiton shroud's would produce the same results.


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> Snip



Couldn't care less if you're one of those people who chose not to call it V1+V2 nor do I care about the reason why you do such.


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## richard lewis (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Couldn't care less if you're one of those people who chose not to call it V1+V2 nor do I care about the reason why you do such.



ok...... my point still stands that there's nothing to suggest Ei is any faster than his father


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> ok...... my point still stands that there's nothing to suggest Ei is any faster than his father



Kishi already made it quite clear the A is the faster of the two.


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## Rocky (Oct 11, 2013)

If one reads the Manga, there is plenty to suggest that Ei is much faster than his father.


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## richard lewis (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Kishi already made it quite clear the A is the faster of the two.



when was this?



Rocky said:


> If one reads the Manga, there is plenty to suggest that Ei is much faster than his father.



such as?


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## Nikushimi (Oct 11, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> how do your figure that Ei is any faster than his father? they both appeared to be about the same to me, Ei might be slightly faster but I don't think the gap is that big. I'm not saying naruto can go head to head with him, but naruto should be able to avoid his initial blitz especially considering even a blood lust Ei doesn't start in max speed. Naruto could create a smoke cloud to break up los and then set up a counter attack. Ei won't be able to simply blitz him.



KCM Naruto with his chakra divided among 13 clones is about as fast as guys like Itachi and Killer B (he sparred with Itachi and they were even; Killer B matched Itachi as well). Sasuke's speed was pretty evenly matched with Itachi's and B's in their respective fights, granted that Sasuke was outmatched in skill in both cases. He did actually manage to dodge B's V1 form, too. It stands, based on transitive reasoning, that Sasuke is about as fast as KCM Naruto (with his chakra divided, as it was when he fought the 3rd Raikage).

The 4th Raikage physically moved out of Sasuke's focus and got behind him before he could turn around. Sasuke's Sharingan, which is supposed to predict the path of movement in advance and give him extra time to react, didn't even register this change initially. The 3rd was unable to replicate such a feat against Naruto. The 4th dodged Amaterasu, the 3rd got hit (on the third attempt) by FRS. There does seem to be a clear difference in their speed.


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## richard lewis (Oct 11, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> KCM Naruto with his chakra divided among 13 clones is about as fast as guys like Itachi and Killer B (he sparred with Itachi and they were even; Killer B matched Itachi as well). Sasuke's speed was pretty evenly matched with Itachi's and B's in their respective fights, granted that Sasuke was outmatched in skill in both cases. He did actually manage to dodge B's V1 form, too. It stands, based on transitive reasoning, that Sasuke is about as fast as KCM Naruto (with his chakra divided, as it was when he fought the 3rd Raikage).
> 
> The 4th Raikage physically moved out of Sasuke's focus and got behind him before he could turn around. Sasuke's Sharingan, which is supposed to predict the path of movement in advance and give him extra time to react, didn't even register this change initially. The 3rd was unable to replicate such a feat against Naruto. The 4th dodged Amaterasu, the 3rd got hit (on the third attempt) by FRS. There does seem to be a clear difference in their speed.



Well gee, maybe the third couldn't replicate the feat b/c in SM naruto is faster than sasuke and has better precog due to his danger sensing. 

As for KCM naruto "with chakra divided" being the same speed as itachi I'd disagree. Naruto never attempted to use his shushin against itachi he was just using regular speed. Similarly Ei isn't moving super fast all the time even with his raiton shroud up. He usually uses high speed in quick bursts and then goes back to using normal speed. Naruto does the same thing, along with every other speedster in the manga. So if a KCM naruto clone and sasuke had a short distance race naruto would definitely win, however in a fight naruto isn't going to be constantly zipping around at top speed so most of the time they would appear to be equal until naruto decides to use his yellow flash shushin. Also I don't see why dividing his chakra would make the original naruto any weaker/slower. Naruto has been using mass KB his whole life and it has never shown a side effect of making the original slower.


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## Cromer (Oct 11, 2013)

Wait, what is this nonsense about Ei attacking from SM Naruto's blindspot? A Sage Mode user is not a Doujutsu user; they HAVE NO BLIND SPOTS.


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## ueharakk (Oct 11, 2013)

niku, if you are going to respond to my post on the last thread, post it here if it's not a problem.

Anyways, I think it's clear that the arguments that say Ei wins simply presuppose that just because he's much faster in movement speed than SM Naruto, SM Naruto can't physically react to his attacks, which is something that you absolutely cannot simply presuppose since that's the thread decider.  

Simply being much faster than another guy =/= they can't physically react to your attacks as Naruto and Sasuke not only reacted, but counterblitzed guys who are much faster than them.  So in order to say Naruto can't even physically react to Ei's speed, you'd have to say the difference between V1 speed and maxed out Ei are so great that naruto can go from dodging and accurately aiming a rasengan at V1 Ei speed, to not even being able to put up a last minute guard despite many shinobi being able to do so only after noticing the attack existed when it was inches away from their faces.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If one reads the Manga, there is plenty to suggest that Ei is much faster than his father.


Their speeds are comparable, Rocky. In fact KCM Naruto directly compared A and the Sandaime Raikage's speed.


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## richard lewis (Oct 11, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> niku, if you are going to respond to my post on the last thread, post it here if it's not a problem.
> 
> Anyways, I think it's clear that the arguments that say Ei wins simply presuppose that just because he's much faster in movement speed than SM Naruto, SM Naruto can't physically react to his attacks, which is something that you absolutely cannot simply presuppose since that's the thread decider.
> 
> Simply being much faster than another guy =/= they can't physically react to your attacks as Naruto and Sasuke not only reacted, but counterblitzed guys who are much faster than them.  So in order to say Naruto can't even physically react to Ei's speed, you'd have to say the difference between V1 speed and maxed out Ei are so great that naruto can go from dodging and accurately aiming a rasengan at V1 Ei speed, to not even being able to put up a last minute guard despite many shinobi being able to do so only after noticing the attack existed when it was inches away from their faces.



I couldn't agree with you more. Naruto should be able to at the very least avoid Ei's initial attack. From there realizing how fast Ei is he will know not to fight him head on and to use smoke bombs, KB's, and other distractions in order to create an opening to attack.


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## Rocky (Oct 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Their speeds are comparable, Rocky. In fact KCM Naruto directly compared A and the Sandaime Raikage's speed.




I'm going to now ask you what the Sandaime Raikage has done that compares to dodging Amaterasu or overriding the perceptual abilities of the Mangekyou in the hands of an elite Uchiha.


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> when was this?



Kishi went to show that A was the fastest person around with only Minato being faster then him, until Naruto came around in KCM that is, had A dodge Ama, had him move so fast that Sasuek couldn't keep track of him, had A kept blitzing KCM Naruto multiple times until the end ect. Kishi has constantly gone out his way to hype up A's speed unlike with the Sandaime where he prefer to hype up his durability. While the Sandaime may be fast, it's clear that Kishi has portrayed A as the faster of the two, if you disagree then we'll need to agree to disagree.


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## richard lewis (Oct 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I'm going to now ask you what the Sandaime Raikage has done that compares to dodging Amaterasu or overriding the perceptual abilities of the Mangekyou in the hands of an elite Uchiha.



He's never fought a sharingan user or any dojutsu user for that matter so that is a bit of a loaded question. Naruto who's seen Ei's max power made a direct comparison between Ei's speed and his fathers speed. They both use the same jutsu to boost their speed which would lead me to believe that their about equal.


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## richard lewis (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Kishi went to show that A was the fastest person around with only Minato being faster then him, until Naruto came around in KCM that is, had A dodge Ama, had him move so fast that Sasuek couldn't keep track of him, had A kept blitzing KCM Naruto multiple times until the end ect. Kishi has constantly gone out his way to hype up A's speed unlike with the Sandaime where he prefer to hype up his durability. While the Sandaime may be fast, it's clear that Kishi has portrayed A as the faster of the two, if you disagree then we'll need to agree to disagree.



Naruto wasn't trying to hurt Ei when they fought, if he was then he would have tried to tag him with FRS or at least a basic rasengan. Naruto was basically trying to run around him he made zero offensive effort. I'm sure Sandaime would have smacked naruto around to if he didn't make any effort to counter attack.


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> Naruto wasn't trying to hurt Ei when they fought, if he was then he would have tried to tag him with FRS or at least a basic rasengan. Naruto was basically trying to run around him he made zero offensive effort. I'm sure Sandaime would have smacked naruto around to if he didn't make any effort to counter attack.



Glad you agree he got blitz multiple time until the end.


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## ueharakk (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Glad you agree he got blitz multiple time until the end.



naruto blocking every one of Ei's hits =/= naruto getting blitzed.


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> naruto blocking every one of Ei's hits =/= naruto getting blitzed.



Then we have a different idea on what blitzing is.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Then we have a different idea on what blitzing is.


Blitzing usually means that the person whose on the receiving end is unable to defend. But Naruto was able to defend against A's blows and equaled and surpassed his speed.


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Blitzing usually means that the person whose on the receiving end is unable to defend. But Naruto was able to defend against A's blows and equaled and surpassed his speed.



Then we have different ideas on what blitzing is.


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## Ersa (Oct 11, 2013)

If this is current SM Naruto with Ma/Pa; I think he can take this if he plays smart. With constantly recharging chakra he can spam 4-5 clones + summons to distract Ei, granted I doubt they'll hit him cause Ei is so fast and some attacks he can outright tank but I feel nothing short of a very short range V2 Shunshin is blitzing SM Naruto.  I'm fairly confident a FRS will at least cripple him to a very weakened state; mainly due to Raiton No Yoroi being very weak to it and Ei not completely having his father's durability. Frog Song is always an option too if Naruto can actually keep away from Ei long enough.

I'd favour Ei but Naruto has a good chance here. Ei is really just a bad match-up for him.


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## ueharakk (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Then we have different ideas on what blitzing is.



So just to make sure for future debates, bonly's definition of blitz = blocking an attack?


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 11, 2013)

I don't think SM Naruto would be able to put up a block against V2 Ei running up to him. Naruto has to beat him while he's still in V1, which while possible is dubious.


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> So just to make sure for future debates, bonly's definition of blitz = blocking an attack



Nope. **


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## ueharakk (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Nope. **



well little bonly, why don't you hop on up and explain to the rest of the class the super special definition of what you and only you consider a blitz is?


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> well little bonly, why don't you hop on up and explain to the rest of the class the super special definition of what you and only you consider a blitz is?



Well if you're gonna be a dick then no.


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## ueharakk (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Well if you're gonna be a dick then no.



Okay, well lets forget about all of that and start from the beginning.

Bonly?  Can you please tell us what your definition of a blitz is?  I am very curious to know as it seems your definition is different from the definition that most people use in he battledome.


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## Jagger (Oct 11, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Ei blitzes him without much resistance. He nearly killed KCM Naruto several times.


A KM Naruto that didn't even try to kill A nor used his Rasegan or such variations or clones or anything else. Just a fight of speed, nothing else.

But I'm not really sure who wins. I'm leaning towards A more, though.


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## richard lewis (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Glad you agree he got blitz multiple time until the end.



Blitzing someone is when you attack them so fast that they can't respond and you land a critical blow. Naruto blocked/dodge all of Ei's attacks and Ei never injured him so IDK how that's a blitz?


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> Blitzing someone is when you attack them so fast that they can't respond and you land a critical blow. Naruto blocked/dodge all of Ei's attacks and Ei never injured him so IDK how that's a blitz?



A used his speed to intercept Naruto and managed to land a hit on Naruto and stopping Naruto from going past. I view him doing such as a blitz, the whole "attack them so fast that they can't respond" isn't only included in a blitz to me. You can move fast enough to land a hit but it doesn't *need * to be so fast that they can't react for it to be a blitz in my opinion.


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## ueharakk (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> A used his speed to intercept Naruto and managed to land a hit on Naruto and stopping Naruto from going past. I view him doing such as a blitz, the whole "attack them so fast that they can't respond" isn't only included in a blitz to me. *You can move fast enough to land a hit *but it doesn't *need * to be so fast that they can't react for it to be a blitz in my opinion.



So if the bolded is what you refer to as a blitz, and you refer to naruto blocking Ei's punch as "Ei landing a hit naruto", wouldn't you agree that your definition of a blitz which is "move fast enough to land a hit" would mean an attack that is blocked = a blitz?


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> So if the bolded is what you refer to as a blitz, and you refer to naruto blocking Ei's punch as "Ei landing a hit naruto", wouldn't you agree that your definition of a blitz which is "move fast enough to land a hit" would mean an attack that is blocked = a blitz?



Sure, if an attack got block I would still consider it a blitz depending on the situation.


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## ueharakk (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Sure, if an attack got block I would still consider it a blitz depending on the situation.



well what's the situation that would determine whether a blocked attack is a blitz or is not?

Is it forcing someone to block since dodging isn't an option?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Sure, if an attack got block I would still consider it a blitz depending on the situation.


If an attack is block, that means a blitz _didn't_ happen. Blitzes mean the defender cannot defend or avoid an attack, they get stomped by it. If someone can react and defend, that means its not a blitz.


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> well what's the situation that would determine whether a blocked attack is a blitz or is not?
> 
> Is it forcing someone to block since dodging isn't an option?



Don't know. I don't have a reason per say that separates a situation that determines if it is a blitz or not. I just look at what happen and go on from there. For example going by what I said one can consider Chōjūrō landing a hit on Sasuke during the Kage summit as a blitz since he was fast enough to land the hit on Sasuke(well his susanoo). But I wouldn't call it a blitz due to the situation of Sasuke just standing there and likely thinking he can tank even though he was fast enough to land a hit. 

It's hard for me to explain, but if you give me an example of something that happened in the manga of what could be considered a blitz, I could look at the situation and tell you if I consider it such and why.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If an attack is block, that means a blitz _didn't_ happen. Blitzes mean the defender cannot defend or avoid an attack, they get stomped by it. If someone can react and defend, that means its not a blitz.



Go look in a dictionary and I can bet that, that is not what the definition of the word blitz is. Well unless they updated it and my dictionary is outdated.


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## ueharakk (Oct 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If an attack is block, that means a blitz _didn't_ happen. Blitzes mean the defender cannot defend or avoid an attack, they get stomped by it. If someone can react and defend, that means its not a blitz.



bro, he's just going to post "I guess my definition of a blitz is different than yours" again

edit: hey guess I was wrong!


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## ueharakk (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Don't know. I don't have a reason per say that separates a situation that determines if it is a blitz or not. I just look at what happen and go on from there. For example going by what I said one can consider Chōjūrō landing a hit on Sasuke during the Kage summit as a blitz since he was fast enough to land the hit on Sasuke(well his susanoo). But I wouldn't call it a blitz due to the situation of Sasuke just standing there and likely thinking he can tank even though he was fast enough to land a hit.
> 
> It's hard for me to explain, but if you give me an example of something that happened in the manga of what could be considered a blitz, I could look at the situation and tell you if I consider it such and why.



I don't see how the choujuro example would prevent you from establishing a definition for it.  It seems that you wouldn't consider the choujuro one a blitz since Sasuke might have been able to dodge the attack instead of being forced to block it.  Thus the definition of what you would consider a blitz: "forcing one to block an attack because dodging isn't an option" would be untouched, it's now a debate about whether what happened in the manga fits the criteria of the definition you established.


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## Bonly (Oct 11, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I don't see how the choujuro example would prevent you from establishing a definition for it.  It seems that you wouldn't consider the choujuro one a blitz since Sasuke might have been able to dodge the attack instead of being forced to block it.  Thus the definition of what you would consider a blitz: "forcing one to block an attack because dodging isn't an option" would be untouched, it's now a debate about whether what happened in the manga fits the criteria of the definition you established.



I was legitly(is that even a word lol) confused for for a minute lol. I see you type "forcing one to block an attack because dodging isn't an option. Thus the definition of what you would consider a blitz: "forcing one to block an attack because dodging isn't an option, would be untouched" and I thought I only put the being fast enough to land a hit so I went looking up and down my past post to see where I said that about being forced to block. I then saw that you brought it up and had myself a good laugh. But yeah, you seem to have gotten what I was trying to to say.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 11, 2013)

SM Naruto wins.

 He's just a bad match up for Ei.


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## ueharakk (Oct 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I was legitly(is that even a word lol) confused for for a minute lol. I see you type "forcing one to block an attack because dodging isn't an option. Thus the definition of what you would consider a blitz: "forcing one to block an attack because dodging isn't an option, would be untouched" and I thought I only put the being fast enough to land a hit so I went looking up and down my past post to see where I said that about being forced to block. I then saw that you brought it up and had myself a good laugh. But yeah, you seem to have gotten what I was trying to to say.



Hey laughing is a great thing glad I could provide you with some.

But anyways, I didn't say that you directly stated that "forcing one to block an attack because dodging isn't an option" is your definition of a blitz, however from your reasoning that Choujuro's attack on sasuke could possibly not be a blitz due to Sasuke possibly not caring about taking the hit, then that's what I gathered your definition would mean.

Do you now have the gist of what i'm trying to say: that you actually do have a set definition of what a blitz is, and the only reason you would question if Chojuro's attack is a blitz or not is because the feat may or may not fit the definition of yours.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Hey laughing is a great thing glad I could provide you with some.
> 
> But anyways, I didn't say that you directly stated that "forcing one to block an attack because dodging isn't an option" is your definition of a blitz, however from your reasoning that Choujuro's attack on sasuke could possibly not be a blitz due to Sasuke possibly not caring about taking the hit, then that's what I gathered your definition would mean.
> 
> *Do you now have the gist of what i'm trying to say: that you actually do have a set definition of what a blitz is, and the only reason you would question if Chojuro's attack is a blitz or not is because the feat may or may not fit the definition of yours*.



Yup you hit the nail on the head.


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## ueharakk (Oct 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Yup you hit the nail on the head.



yeah, so since you agree that you do, then would you not also agree that your set definition of what a blitz is: "forcing someone to block an attack because they can't dodge it"?

If not, then would you explain what your definition of a blitz is or at least show how it wouldn't be what I've just stated.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> yeah, so since you agree that you do, then would you not also agree that your set definition of what a blitz is: "forcing someone to block an attack because they can't dodge it"?
> 
> If not, then would you explain what your definition of a blitz is or at least show how it wouldn't be what I've just stated.



Yup, lets go with that, the former that is.


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## richard lewis (Oct 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> A used his speed to intercept Naruto and managed to land a hit on Naruto and stopping Naruto from going past. I view him doing such as a blitz, the whole "attack them so fast that they can't respond" isn't only included in a blitz to me. You can move fast enough to land a hit but it doesn't *need * to be so fast that they can't react for it to be a blitz in my opinion.



So if someone throws a punch and you block or dodge it they blitzed you? that makes no sense.... that's like if where playing football and I attempt to rush the quarterback but miss the tackle, that's not a blitz. It's an attempted blitz I suppose since I tried but failed.

Ei never landed a blow on naruto... so how could he have possibly blitzed him? 

your basically saying anytime one ninja attacks another ninja really fast it's a blitz, regardless of whether the ninja on the receiving end blocks/counters it.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> So if someone throws a punch and you block or dodge it they blitzed you? that makes no sense.... that's like if where playing football and I attempt to rush the quarterback but miss the tackle, that's not a blitz. It's an attempted blitz I suppose since I tried but failed.



Couldn't care less if it makes sense to you, that's how I view it.



> Ei never landed a blow on naruto



Stop reading here as you are bluntly telling an outright lie. We're done here.


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## richard lewis (Oct 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Couldn't care less if it makes sense to you, that's how I view it.


 
Fair enough... in that case Ei could certainly blitz naruto, and naruto would proceed to dodge/block it. Naruto is not an idoit as long as he can survive Ei's initial attack he's going to know not to fight him head on. Ei's is one dimensional all he can do is CQC taijutsu attacks, if naruto uses smoke clouds and KB's he should be able to catch Ei off guard and create an opening to attacks. Or at the very least he could summon ma and pa and he should be able to buy enough time to prep frog song.



Bonly said:


> Stop reading here as you are bluntly telling an outright lie. We're done here.


How am I lying?
*much more destruction upon landing *
I dont consider that a landed punch..... I consider it a blocked punch.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Couldn't care less if it makes sense to you, that's how I view it.


 That view on what a blitz is is wrong though.




> Stop reading here as you are bluntly telling an outright lie. We're done here.


Naruto blocked all the punches, that's not 'landing a blow'.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> Fair enough... in that case Ei could certainly blitz naruto, and naruto would proceed to dodge/block it. Naruto is not an idoit as long as he can survive Ei's initial attack he's going to know not to fight him head on. Ei's is one dimensional all he can do is CQC taijutsu attacks, if naruto uses smoke clouds and KB's he should be able to catch Ei off guard and create an opening to attacks. Or at the very least he could summon ma and pa and he should be able to buy enough time to prep frog song.




We were talking about how Kishi portrays the speed of A and the Sandaime Raikage so we're done here.




> How am I lying?
> passively
> I dont consider that a landed punch..... I consider it a blocked punch.



Then we view it differently.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That view on what a blitz is is wrong though.



My view point is on what a blitz is no more wrong then your view point on it, that is unless in the dictionary it says "Blitzes mean the defender cannot defend or avoid an attack, they get stomped by it. If someone can react and defend, that means its not a blitz."(per your words) for what blitz means, which from what I saw, it doesn't. So if *you're* gonna take a word that already has a meaning and change it to apply how *you think* it should be in this manga then you have no right to tell me what *YOU* personally think a blitz is, is the right definition while *me doing the same thing as you is wrong* because it's different from yours. As I said before we have different idea's on what a blitz is, so if you don't agree with my view on it then respect it like I do yours (instead of shoving your opinion down my throat like you have done many times in the past) and we're gonna have to agree to disagree.




> Naruto blocked all the punches, that's not 'landing a blow'.



Then we view it differently.


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## richard lewis (Oct 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> We were talking about how Kishi portrays the speed of A and the Sandaime Raikage so we're done here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To your defense the dictionary definition of a blitz is when the defensive line on a football team rushes the quarter back. So judging by that the don't necessarily have to successfully tackle for it to be a blitz. And I guess that would mean Ei rushing naruto is a blitz even if his punch gets blocked.

But lol a blocked punch is not a landed punch...... watch a boxing match or ufc fight. They show the stats after every round, they have multiple categories, blocked punches and landed punches. There is a difference, if the punch doesn't make contact with the face or body it's not a landed punch bro..... there's not really any other way to look at it.


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## Bonly (Oct 12, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> To your defense the dictionary definition of a blitz is when the defensive line on a football team rushes the quarter back. So judging by that the don't necessarily have to successfully tackle for it to be a blitz. And I guess that would mean Ei rushing naruto is a blitz even if his punch gets blocked.
> 
> But lol a blocked punch is not a landed punch...... watch a boxing match or ufc fight. They show the stats after every round, they have multiple categories, blocked punches and landed punches. There is a difference, if the punch doesn't make contact with the face or body it's not a landed punch bro..... there's not really any other way to look at it.





So even though the punch managed to land and make contact with another persons body, it won't be considered a landed it because it was blocked? Fuck it, I'll go with it wasn't a landed blow with they do stats like that.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Bonly said:


> So even though the punch managed to land and make contact with another persons body, it won't be considered a landed it because it was blocked? Fuck it, I'll go with it wasn't a landed blow with they do stats like that.


...that is generally how it is Bonly. Blocking means the blow is intercepted and stopped from hitting the torso or face. A was unable to blitz Naruto since he never landed a hit on his face or body, all of his blows were blocked. That is generally agreed here and countless other places dude.

Blitzes, a full speed full power charge, in the manga happen when the receiving end is unable to block, thus unable to defend. Such as:


KN0 Wave Arc Naruto vs Haku
Rock Lee vs Two-Tomoe Chunin Exam Sasuke
Weightless and Gated Lee vs Chunin Exam Gaara
Six Gated Gai vs Shoten Kisame
Post-Timeskip Sasuke vs Team Kakashi most notably Naruto
Itachi Uchiha vs Sasuke Uchiha (within their Genjutsu duel which Itachi landed the solid kick before Sasuke could react or block)
Killer Bee vs Sasuke (which he gets Lariated before he can even turn around)
Sage Mode Naruto vs Asura Path (which he smashes down on it and destroys it without any Path being able to react or block)
A vs Sasuke (Sasuke couldn't react to the Liger Bomb)
Minato vs Obito (Famous Hiraishi version 2 + Rasengan)
Kurama Chakra Mode Naruto vs Kisame (hit him so hard he was unable to do anything but limp away without being able to defend or react)
KK6 Kinkaku vs Darui (where he blitzes Darui before Darui can react, requiring outside help to survive)
Flashback Minato vs A (Minato reacts and avoids A's blow, gets his back, nearly stabs him, and blitzes Bee before giving himself away deliberately to end the fight)
KCM Naruto vs Sandaime Raikage (Blitzes him before he can turn around and tosses his Rasenshuriken at him at point-blank range from behind)
Onoki + A vs Madara (sends him and his Susano'o flying without Madara able to defend)
KCM Naruto vs Masked Obito (lands a full force full speed headbutt with Obito unable to phase through it)
BM Naruto vs Biju Paths (Blitzes all their Bijudama and taps them into next week and makes them fly when he fully transforms)
BM Naruto vs Chomei (Blitzes him before he can react and pile drives him)
V1 Juubi vs BM Naruto and TBM Killer Bee
Mindless Jubi Jinchuriki Obito vs Tobirama and Hashirama
Mindless Jubi Jinchuriki Obito vs KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke


There's more, but its hard to remember off the top of the head.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

Sage Naruto cannot do anything in that situation, so he dies.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Sage Naruto cannot do anything in that situation, so he dies.


Luckily A doesn't use his full speed right off the bat. And luckily Naruto in Sage Mode can sense the attack coming...and can outright tank the blow due to him tanking blows from fucking Kurama as well as a Shinra Tensei from Deva Path and the tens of thousands of tons of force behind the Boss Rhino charge.

Hell the damage from A's full speed isn't really that impressive compared to the Rhino Charge and Kurama's strength.


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## ueharakk (Oct 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Sage Naruto cannot do anything in that situation, so he dies.



Good thing SM Naruto isn't trying to wait till Ei's fist is an inch away from his face in order to dodge him in this fight.


but even in that situation though there's a good chance SM Naruto would still be able to block the attack considering Kid juugo did it against a slower Ei:


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## Bonly (Oct 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...that is generally how it is Bonly. Blocking means the blow is intercepted and stopped from hitting the torso or face. A was unable to blitz Naruto since he never landed a hit on his face or body, all of his blows were blocked. That is generally agreed here and countless other places dude.



Couldn't care less if it's generally agreed as such, that's not how I look at it, get over it. I know it may be hard since you feel the need to shove your opinion down people's throats but we aren't going to agree nor will anything you say make me think overwise.




> Blitzes, a full speed full power charge, in the manga happen when the receiving end is unable to block, thus unable to defend. Such as:



You are wrong yet again, go look in a dictionary to see what the actually meaning is. Your made up opinion on what it is doesn't equal what the definition really is.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Luckily A doesn't use his full speed right off the bat.


 Ei can if he wants, and he's been shown to do so against Minato, so the IC rule doesn't apply.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And luckily Naruto in Sage Mode can sense the attack coming.


Maybe. Even then he couldn't do anything about it. He isn't physically fast enough; KCM Naruto was barley able to dodge, who's > Sage Mode Naruto in every way.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> tanking blows from fucking Kurama



That was a clone, a clone that went "poof"





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> as well as a Shinra Tensei from Deva Path



Kakashi tanked those.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> and the tens of thousands of tons of force behind the Boss Rhino charge.



The Rhino didn't hit him in the face. He caught it, stopping it from connecting. Besides, for all we know The Raikage is stronger than that Rhino, as the Rhino is featless and and Ei broke Susano'o.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Good thing SM Naruto isn't trying to wait till Ei's fist is an inch away from his face in order to dodge him in this fight.




Where was it stated that KCM Naruto wanted to wait until Ei was inches from his face to dodge.



> but even in that situation though there's a good chance SM Naruto would still be able to block the attack considering Kid juugo did it against a slower Ei:




I can believe that Juugo using the full extent of his Juin abilities can move his arms faster than Ei's v1 foot speed.

I am not going to believe any part of Sage Naruto moves faster than Ei's v2 Shunshin, nor have we been given a reason to do so.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Ei can if he wants, and he's been shown to do so against Minato, so the IC rule doesn't apply.


THough even when enraged against Sasuke, he still didn't go full speed. He only goes full speed when he needs it.



> Maybe. Even then he couldn't do anything about it. He isn't physically fast enough; KCM Naruto was barley able to dodge, who's > Sage Mode Naruto in every way.


Sage Mode Naruto has superior sensing to KCM, has superior strength feats, and has equal to superior durability feats. He could go toe to toe with the strongest Raikage and predict his movements, A shouldn't be any different.




> That was a clone, a clone that went "poof"


The clone went 'poof' _voluntarily_. His main purpose was to distract Kurama and when that was done he poofed away. Doesn't change the fact he tanked Kurama's blow.




> Kakashi tanked those.


Not very well, and Deva had no reason to hold back when his power was just restored.




> The Rhino didn't hit him in the face. He caught it, stopping it from connecting. Besides, for all we know The Raikage is stronger than that Rhino, as the Rhino is featless and and Ei punched broke Susano'o.


You do realize that merely _stopping_ the Rhino's charge doesn't stop the _force_ behind it right? Naruto had to take the tens of thousands of tons of energy behind it before he could throw it. 

A's full speed full power punch...really didn't do anything impressive at all in comparison. It destroyed a small part of a cliff. And Sasuke's Susano'o ribcage is one of the weakest we've seen.

And Bonly, can you please give us YOUR definition of a blitz and speedblitz then?


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## ueharakk (Oct 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Where was it stated that KCM Naruto wanted to wait until Ei was inches from his face to dodge.


Where was it stated that KCM Naruto didn't want to wait until Ei was inches away from his face to dodge?

if you are asking for me to simply support my assertion, then there are a couple of things like:
- minato waiting for Ei in the parallel situation in order to set up his kunai for the blitz
- naruto looking and talking to Ei in the panel before the one you posted while Ei travels
- shunshin prep not requiring any kind of physical movement



Rocky said:


> I can believe that Juugo using the full extent of his Juin abilities can move his arms faster than Ei's v1 foot speed.
> 
> I am not going to believe any part of Sage Naruto moves faster than Ei's v2 Shunshin, nor have we been given a reason to do so.


Sure we've been given reason to do so.  It was KID juugo who did that with a form described by Kabuto as a mere pretension trick to what Naruto is using.  With the form naruto is using he was able to not only dodge the guy with the same speed as "V1" Ei, but he did it while running full speed at the guy and to top it all off he was able to accurately aim a rasengan at the guys arm in order to blow it back into sandaime.  

That's more than enough reason to believe that SM Naruto can at the very least repeat what kid Juugo did to V1 Ei against V2 Ei.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He only goes full speed when he needs it.



He needs it to kill Naruto.




SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sage Mode Naruto has superior sensing to KCM, has superior strength feats, and has equal to superior durability feats. He could go toe to toe with the strongest Raikage and predict his movements, A shouldn't be any different.



Ei is faster than his father by alot, so it'll be different. 

Nowhere in the scan provided does Naruto mention KCM, so I don't know how you're drawing the conclusion that Sage Naruto has better reflexes (sensing). 




SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The clone went 'poof' _voluntarily_. His main purpose was to distract Kurama and when that was done he poofed away. Doesn't change the fact he tanked Kurama's blow.




Where exactly was the indication that the clone voluntarily poofed.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Not very well, and Deva had no reason to hold back when his power was just restored.



Tendo was holding back against Kakashi?



			
				SuperSaiyaMan12;48696297You do realize that merely [I said:
			
		

> stopping[/I] the Rhino's charge doesn't stop the _force_ behind it right? Naruto had to take the tens of thousands of tons of energy behind it before he could throw it.
> 
> A's full speed full power punch...really didn't do anything impressive at all in comparison. It destroyed a small part of a cliff. And Sasuke's Susano'o ribcage is one of the weakest we've seen.




That's a strength feat, not a durability feat. Tsunade could do the same thing, but that doesn't mean she's tanking that Rhino's charge to the head without medical Ninjutsu. 

Sasuke's Susano'o is one of the weakest we've seen based on what? Let me guess, being damaged by Ei?


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## Bonly (Oct 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Bonly, can you please give us YOUR definition of a blitz and speedblitz then?



Can I? Yes. Will I make another post about it? Nope. As said before we're gonna agree to disagree so we're done here. If you want to know what it is then I'm sure you can figure it out, it won't be too hard.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Where was it stated that KCM Naruto didn't want to wait until Ei was inches away from his face to dodge?
> 
> if you are asking for me to simply support my assertion, then there are a couple of things like:
> - minato waiting for Ei in the parallel situation in order to set up his kunai for the blitz
> ...




None of those reasons indicate why Naruto would (idiotically) wait for Ei to come within inches of his face to attempt to dodge.



> With the form naruto is using he was able to not only dodge the guy with the same speed as "V1" Ei, but he did it while running full speed at the guy and to top it all off he was able to accurately aim a rasengan at the guys arm in order to blow it back into sandaime.




So was Sasuke. Sasuke was able to dodge v1 Raikage while running at him, and even strike him in the chest with Chidori. v2 Raikage however took a massive dump on Sasuke's Magekyou Sharingan perception. Sasuke couldn't even twitch in response to Ei; the best he could do was turn his head after Ei skidded to a stop (and Ei blitzed through Susano'o and Enton anyway).

Naruto doesn't have the instant defense of Susano'o or Enton.


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## ueharakk (Oct 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> None of those reasons indicate why Naruto would (idiotically) wait for Ei to come within inches of his face to attempt to dodge.


not only is that a baseless assertion but:

the one about minato sure does since it would be easier to dodge Ei if naruto waits for him to get close instead of allowing him to course correct.
The other two don't intend to explain why naruto WOULD wait for Ei to come within inches, they attempt to explain that naruto DID wait for Ei to come within inches.





Rocky said:


> So was Sasuke. Sasuke was able to dodge v1 Raikage while running at him, and even strike him in the chest with Chidori. v2 Raikage however took a massive dump on Sasuke's Magekyou Sharingan perception. Sasuke couldn't even twitch in response to Ei; the best he could do was turn his head after Ei skidded to a stop (and Ei blitzed through Susano'o and Enton anyway).


Sasuke's MS perception has jack squat to do with things he can't see, thus once Ei left his LoS, his performance against Sasuke's reactions/perception is no longer comparable to Naruto's since SM Naruto's perception isn't limited to his LoS.  Thus Naruto wouldn't get blitzed from behind or lose track of Ei when he shunshins perpendicular to sasuke's LoS.

Shunshining perpendicular to Sasuke's LoS is much more difficult to track than shunshinning right at sasuke, it's like firing a gun and being able to see the bullet vs some else firing a gun from a distance and not being able to see the bullet.



Rocky said:


> Naruto doesn't have the instant defense of Susano'o or Enton.


he doesn't need that if he always knows where Ei is.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He needs it to kill Naruto.


And he still won't go all out.





> Ei is faster than his father by alot, so it'll be different.


Not at all, the manga made them comparable in speed and credited the Sandaime to being the strongest Raikage.


> Nowhere in the scan provided does Naruto mention KCM, so I don't know how you're drawing the conclusion that Sage Naruto has better reflexes (sensing).


Naruto: I can sense danger faster and greater with Frog-Fu in Sage Mode! Just have to dodge the strike at the last second...

He was clearly referring to in general, and Naruto does have the greater sensing feats in Sage Mode: sensing everyone in Konoha and pinpointing Kakashi's energy was not among them, tracking where Nagato is a mountain range away, sensing Kakashi's chakra from a vast distance, sensing all the battles of the War from _countries_ away, sensing all the Biju's chakra receivers easily which KCM Naruto couldn't do, and being able to perceive the Ten-Tails power which KCM/BM was unable to do.




> Where exactly was the indication that the clone voluntarily poofed.


Kurama: You *really* think you can win?

Naruto clone: Wouldn't have taken off the seal if I didn't...PLUS...

Another clone grabs Kurama's tail, said clone under Kurama's foot voluntarily puff's away and Kurama's tossed like a ragdoll.




> Tendo was holding back against Kakashi?


Yep. Deva Path's purpose was to interrogate Kakashi where Naruto was being held. He only went in for the kill when Kakashi proved to be a bit dangerous to him.





> That's a strength feat, not a durability feat. Tsunade could do the same thing, but that doesn't mean she's tanking that Rhino's charge to the head without medical Ninjutsu.


You do know that if you stop a bullet the force still would go in and hurt you right? Its why bullet-proof helmets rarely help in battle-the force behind the bullet still is transferred to the person behind it.

Naruto's stopping of the Rhino is the exact same thing. He had to physically tank the force behind the Rhino, all that mass stopping at once and then retaliate.


> Sasuke's Susano'o is one of the weakest we've seen based on what? Let me guess, being damaged by Ei?


Well Madara's Ribcage shrugged off A's attacks without damage (hence why he needed Onoki to help) and even Cho Odama Rasengan's from Naruto, Sasuke's the weakest from the feats we've seen of it.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> He doesn't need that if he always knows where Ei is.




lol Yes he does. Naruto's body is not physically faster than Ei's v2 flicker. Reacting to Ei would not mean his body can keep up. Throwback to Sauce vs. Lee.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> lol Yes he does. Naruto's body is not physically faster than Ei's v2 flicker. Reacting to Ei would not mean his body can keep up. Throwback to Sauce vs. Lee.


V2 Flicker, maybe, but Naruto can tank the attack if it does hit and A's left open afterwards. But Version 1 Flicker which A uses the most? Naruto can most certainly avoid it in Sage Mode.


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## ueharakk (Oct 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> lol Yes he does. Naruto's body is not physically faster than Ei's v2 flicker. Reacting to Ei would not mean his body can keep up. Throwback to Sauce vs. Lee.


He doesn't have to be physically faster than Ei's flicker.

neither SM Naruto nor MS Sasuke are even close to being physically faster than the respective guys that they blitzed, their precog and perceptual abilities make up for that.

If you bring up Sauce vs Lee to say "good enough speed can exceed reactions if you are slower" then I'll bring up KN0 Naruto vs Sasuke, Sasuke vs Ei, Naruto vs Sandaime Raikage, Sasuke vs V1 Bee, and edo itachi vs KCM Naruto to show that "good enough reactions can exceed superior speed if your reactions are good enough".

Thus you'd have to give an argument to show that Ei shunshining right at someone with comparable reactions and physical speed to SM Naruto wouldn't be able to put up a guard against his attack, he'd get put in the same situation as juugo or edo madara: with a fist inches away from his face


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And he still won't go all out.




He'll go all out if he wants to.




> Not at all, the manga made them comparable in speed and credited the Sandaime to being the strongest Raikage.



The Manga noted all Raikage to be fast. 

Ei's feats are flat out superior to Sandaime's.



> Naruto: I can sense danger faster and greater with Frog-Fu in Sage Mode! Just have to dodge the strike at the last second...
> 
> He was clearly referring to in general, and Naruto does have the greater sensing feats in Sage Mode: sensing everyone in Konoha and pinpointing Kakashi's energy was not among them, tracking where Nagato is a mountain range away, sensing Kakashi's chakra from a vast distance, sensing all the battles of the War from _countries_ away, sensing all the Biju's chakra receivers easily which KCM Naruto couldn't do, and being able to perceive the Ten-Tails power which KCM/BM was unable to do.




He was talking about his Base form. He couldn't take KCM form in that situation, so there would be no reason to justify going into Sage Mode over KCM.

KCM Naruto senses malice, and Sage Naruto's abilities are much different, thus the different sensing feats. Which is the better in battle form of sensing? Isn't clear.




> Kurama: You *really* think you can win?
> 
> Naruto clone: Wouldn't have taken off the seal if I didn't...PLUS...
> 
> Another clone grabs Kurama's tail, said clone under Kurama's foot voluntarily puff's away and Kurama's tossed like a ragdoll.




Yah, Naruto clone feinted him. Clone feints normally involve clones dying though, not voluntarily popping. 




> Yep. Deva Path's purpose was to interrogate Kakashi where Naruto was being held. He only went in for the kill when Kakashi proved to be a bit dangerous to him.



If you understand the purpose of the Pain arc, then you'll know that Pain was _never_ going for the kill against Naruto.



> You do know that if you stop a bullet the force still would go in and hurt you right? Its why bullet-proof helmets rarely help in battle-the force behind the bullet still is transferred to the person behind it.
> 
> Naruto's stopping of the Rhino is the exact same thing. He had to physically tank the force behind the Rhino, all that mass stopping at once and then retaliate.





Should I explain the difference between blocking/catching somebody's punch as opposed to taking that same punch directly to the face?



> Well Madara's Ribcage shrugged off A's attacks without damage (hence why he needed Onoki to help) and even Cho Odama Rasengan's from Naruto, Sasuke's the weakest from the feats we've seen of it.




That's EMS Madara with his Susano'o that's far above both Itachi & Sasuke.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He'll go all out if he wants to.


Even bloodlusted, he doesn't though. That's the point I'm trying to make.





> The Manga noted all Raikage to be fast.
> 
> Ei's feats are flat out superior to Sandaime's.


A's feats are superior when he uses maximum power. Sandaime's didn't get a maximum power form and he should get the same amount of speed from A's V1.





> He was talking about his Base form. He couldn't take KCM form in that situation, so there would be no reason to justify going into Sage Mode over KCM.


From what he was referring to, it seemed in general Sage Mode would have been better for that situation.


> KCM Naruto senses malice, and Sage Naruto's abilities are much different, thus the different sensing feats. Which is the better in battle form of sensing? Isn't clear.


Dude, Sage Mode Naruto was _sensing from countries away_, something KCM Naruto is unable to do. Sage Mode Naruto's feats are comparable to fucking Tobirama and Nagato when it comes to sensing.






> Yah, Naruto clone feinted him. Clone feints normally involve clones dying though, not voluntarily popping.


He specifically says before puffing away 'buuuuuttttttt'. Indicating that he DID voluntarily puff away after taking that stomp from Kurama.





> If you understand the purpose of the Pain arc, then you'll know that Pain was _never_ going for the kill against Naruto.


He still would have to attack with the intent to kill just to get Naruto weakened enough for capture. Remember that's the whole point of the Bell Test, Deidara's fight against Gaara, etc.?




> Should I explain the difference between blocking/catching somebody's punch as opposed to taking that same punch directly to the face?


You shouldn't. Dude, think about it: even if you're strong enough to stop the force of something coming at you, you have to, as a SECONDARY POWER, be durable enough to shrug off the damage. Super Strength has a required secondary power of Super Durability.





> That's EMS Madara with his Susano'o that's far above both Itachi & Sasuke.


But Sasuke's Ribcage is the only other feats we have besides EMS Madara's so its the only thing we can compare and contrast too since Itachi lacks the feats with just his ribacage.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> neither SM Naruto nor MS Sasuke are even close to being physically faster than the respective guys that they blitzed, their precog and perceptual abilities make up for that.




No, they don't.

Foot speed & body speed different things. Human's (us) can punch at speeds far faster than we can run. Boxer's can reach hand speeds in the 30mph's. For comparison, Bolt can only sprint around 24 mph on average. My point is that maneuvers like ducking, weaving, blocking, etc. these are all motions that can be executed at much quicker speeds than our running speed. 

Precognition & Sensing help guys like Naruto and Sasuke duck Raikage because their bodies are physically capable of moving out of the way. You don't have to be faster in the feet than someone to duck/guard against them.

Ei however is too fast. Even if us humans has 3-Tome Sharingans, our bodies would not be capable of moving out of the way of some things. They simply travel faster than out bodies can go, even if we have advanced reflxes.



			
				Mythbusters said:
			
		

> The average bullet travels at 2,500 feet per second (around 1,700 mph). If you reacted to the sound of the gun going off and required 0.20 seconds (twice that of the fastest Olympic sprinters) to react, then you would need to be at least 500 feet away to successfully dodge a bullet.


 

If I'm a normal human, let's say Sage Sensing gives me reflexes twice that of an Olympic sprinter (reacting to a gunshot in .05 seconds). I would still need to be 125 feet away to dodge the bullet.

This is all speculation based on random numbers of course, but it's how I view the general outcome. The Raikage is the bullet fired too close to Naruto. He literally doesn't have enough time or distance to get out of the way. 

Here's another example. Say I'm standing 10m in front of a super train coming at me at 300m/s. I'm sorry, but even If I have superman level reflexes, my body is physically not going anywhere before that train crosses 10m and pastes me. Sure, the train would move in slow motion to me, but my body speed doesn't match my reflexes, so it would move in slow motion to me as well. Would I even be able to lift my arms? They can maybe move 7-8 meters per second. That train hits me in 3/100'ths of a second. Assuming _instantaneous reflexes_, my arms can move about .2 meters in that time span. That's about 8 inches assuming I'm on the reflexive tier of The Living Tribunal. 

My argument has nothing to do with Naruto's reflexes. It addresses his body reacting to Ei, when his body has never reacted to something on v2 Ei's speed tier before.


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## ueharakk (Oct 13, 2013)

Rocky said:


> No, they don't.
> 
> Foot speed & body speed different things. Human's (us) can punch at speeds far faster than we can run. Boxer's can reach hand speeds in the 30mph's. For comparison, Bolt can only sprint around 24 mph on average. My point is that maneuvers like ducking, weaving, blocking, etc. these are all motions that can be executed at much quicker speeds than our running speed.
> 
> ...


Sure, but why would this apply to SM Naruto vs V2 Ei? Especially since you admit the bolded, by what evidence or reasoning does Ei become so fast in V2 that Naruto nor Sasuke wouldn't be able to merely put up a guard in response to his speed, despite the fact that they counterblitz sandaime and ei while running full speed at them?





Rocky said:


> If I'm a normal human, let's say Sage Sensing gives me reflexes twice that of an Olympic sprinter (reacting to a gunshot in .05 seconds). I would still need to be 125 feet away to dodge the bullet.


Considering what Naruto did to Sandaime Raikage, you'd be going into the negatives rather than simply reacting to the gunshot.  As in, you'd begin to dodge the bullet as the trigger was being pulled since that's what the three tomoe sharingan allows one to do.  

Plus that doesn't really mean anything except show that having the reflexes to perceive said attack doesn't NECESSARILY mean you can dodge it, which is a point that I've never contested.  



Rocky said:


> This is all speculation based on random numbers of course, but it's how I view the general outcome. The Raikage is the bullet fired too close to Naruto. He literally doesn't have enough time or distance to get out of the way.


and that's an argument you'd have to give evidence for.  

Why is Ei going to be so fast that naruto can't even physically react to him by putting up a guard despite knowing ei is coming, having the physical speed to counterblitz sandaime raikage, and slower characters constantly being able to put up guards against attacks despite only physically reacting to them when the attacks are inches away from their face?



Rocky said:


> Here's another example. Say I'm standing 10m in front of a super train coming at me at 300m/s. I'm sorry, but even If I have superman level reflexes, my body is physically not going anywhere before that train crosses 10m and pastes me. Sure, the train would move in slow motion to me, but my body speed doesn't match my reflexes, so it would move in slow motion to me as well. Would I even be able to lift my arms? They can maybe move 7-8 meters per second. That train hits me in 3/100'ths of a second. Assuming _instantaneous reflexes_, my arms can move about .2 meters in that time span. That's about 8 inches assuming I'm on the reflexive tier of The Living Tribunal.
> 
> *My argument has nothing to do with Naruto's reflexes. It addresses his body reacting to Ei, when his body has never reacted to something on v2 Ei's speed tier before.*


That's basically saying absence of evidence is evidence of absence.  SM Naruto hasn't gone up against someone as fast as V2 Ei so based on direct manga evidence, we have neither any for nor against, thus we'd have to try to draw a conclusion based on the other evidence in the manga or other examples.

In short, your examples only show that: having better reflexes or having the reflexes to perceive a fast attack does not necessarily mean you have the physical speed to do anything about it.  I agree with that statement, however that statement doesn't imply that V2 Ei exceeds SM Naruto's physical reactions given Naruto senses him.


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## Alita (Oct 13, 2013)

A is faster and continued raiton chops to the neck will eventually put naruto down so he takes this IMO.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Alita54 said:


> A is faster and continued raiton chops to the neck will eventually put naruto down so he takes this IMO.


A's maximum speed is faster, but Naruto can sense and predict where he'll attack and has the reflexes to avoid. Naruto can honestly tank all of A's attacks too from his tanking of Kurama's stomp, the Boss Rhino charge, and the fall onto those super sharp rock spikes.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 13, 2013)

Ei should win here.

Sage mode might give the user a better form of precognition than the kyūbi chakra mode does, but the fact remains that it's been portrayed as being a fair bit slower than it as well. And considering that up until the end, Ei had been consistently matching up and almost overwhelming kyūbi chakra mode Naruto with his speed, it should be fairly clear that Naruto can't really physically keep up with the Raikage either. As we saw with Part I Lee versus Sasuke, precognition only gets you so far if your body can't move at the speed required to counter. Sage mode Naruto out-maneuvered the Sandaime Raikage, yes. His speed was somewhat comparable to his son's, but he obviously wasn't quite as fast as Ei - even without the latter amping his shroud up. I just don't think Naruto could keep up with Ei; especially were he to use his shunshin.

On the other hand, Ei is weaker than his dad in terms of physical ability and he lacks a proper, slid attack like the nukite the Sandaime Raikage had. However, his attacks should still be strong enough to injure Naruto even with his durability (I believe kyūbi chakra mode Naruto commented on the sheer force of his attacks before when they had their skirmish) and a few solid hits should drop him. Meanwhile, at the same time, Ei is ridiculously durable and has enough pain tolerance to ignore Amaterasu flames coating his arm as well as chop said arm off without even flinching. They're going to hurt, but I would imagine Ei's attacks would hurt Naruto a lot more than Naruto's would hurt him.

Rasenshuriken probably isn't a good idea, either. Not only does it take out huge chunks of his natural energy reserves (which he really can't afford to lose here), but considering that the Sandaime Raikage could casually evade it, I don't doubt Ei could do the same with even more ease. It's just not very efficient here; especially considering sage mode Naruto can't guide or direct it like his kyūbi counterpart can.

---



> Naruto can honestly tank all of A's attacks too from his tanking of Kurama's stomp, the Boss Rhino charge, and the fall onto those super sharp rock spikes.



Naruto didn't 'tank' the rhino's attack, so much as grab it by the horn before it could make contact with him. You're deluded if you think falling on top of rock spikes or the force of a small summon are anywhere near as painful or strong as Ei's hits would be.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Naruto didn't 'tank' the rhino's attack, so much as grab it by the horn before it could make contact with him. You're deluded if you think falling on top of rock spikes or the force of a small summon are anywhere near as painful or strong as Ei's hits would be.


AS, he grabbed the horn and stopped the charge, that's true. But he had to tank the force behind it. Its a required secondary power, if you're strong enough to stop the movement of a Boss Summon you have to deal with the momentum and energy being smashed right to you, thus you have to have massive durability. A's hits AREN'T as strong as a creature that has literally tens of thousands of _tons_ of force behind it. And the Rhino isn't 'small', its the same size as Gamabunta, the 100 meter toad in the manga.

Let me put it this way: SM Naruto stopped the charge and tanked the force of something the size of Heisei Godzilla and then tossed it into the air after being unharmed by the force behind the charge.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> AS, he grabbed the horn and stopped the charge, that's true. But he had to tank the force behind it. Its a required secondary power, if you're strong enough to stop the movement of a Boss Summon you have to deal with the momentum and energy being smashed right to you, thus you have to have massive durability. A's hits AREN'T as strong as a creature that has literally tens of thousands of _tons_ of force behind it. And the Rhino isn't 'small', its the same size as Gamabunta, the 100 meter toad in the manga.
> 
> Let me put it this way: SM Naruto stopped the charge and tanked the force of something the size of Heisei Godzilla and then tossed it into the air after being unharmed by the force behind the charge.



I'm pretty sure if Ei hit Naruto, the latter wouldn't just be able to grab him by the wrist and throw him out of the orbit. Science doesn't really apply in this manga; it's obvious that Ei is physically stronger than some random summon. Ei, quite easily, broke a rib-cage variation of Susano'o and hurt a Naruto using a stronger transformation. Do you honestly think Naruto could just tank his attacks?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm pretty sure if Ei hit Naruto, the latter wouldn't just be able to grab him by the wrist and throw him out of the orbit. Science doesn't really apply in this manga; it's obvious that Ei is physically stronger than some random summon.


Not at all. A barely could destroy a small portion of a cliff at his full power, AS, yet you're expecting SM Naruto to be damaged by an attack like that after tanking the force behind the Boss Rhino charge?

It honestly feels like you're downplaying Naruto and wanking A whose feats are not as great as you say they are, AS.



Atlantic Storm said:


> Ei, quite easily, broke a rib-cage variation of Susano'o and hurt a Naruto using a stronger transformation. Do you honestly think Naruto could just tank his attacks?


Yes, considering everything Naruto has tanked in Sage Mode. A broke through the weakest Susano'o Ribcage in the manga and Naruto wasn't 'hurt' at all in KCM from A since none of A's attacks even hit dude. 

You're really exaggerating A and downplaying SM Naruto.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Not at all. A barely could destroy a small portion of a cliff at his full power



What exactly are you referring to here?



> , AS, yet you're expecting SM Naruto to be damaged by an attack like that after tanking the force behind the Boss Rhino charge?



What exactly makes you think the rhino is stronger than Ei? Just sheer size and mass alone? By that logic, Sakura should be considerably weaker than any summon, yet she was able to casually destroy one of Animal Realm's summons with a single hit. Ei is at least just as strong as her. Size means nothing here; Ei's attacks are just more focused. 



> It honestly feels like you're downplaying Naruto and wanking A whose feats are not as great as you say they are, AS.



Are you _sure_ you should be saying this to me?


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## ueharakk (Oct 13, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Ei should win here.
> 
> Sage mode might give the user a better form of precognition than the kyūbi chakra mode does, but the fact remains that it's been portrayed as being a fair bit slower than it as well. And considering that up until the end, Ei had been consistently matching up and almost overwhelming kyūbi chakra mode Naruto with his speed, it should be fairly clear that Naruto can't really physically keep up with the Raikage either. As we saw with Part I Lee versus Sasuke, precognition only gets you so far if your body can't move at the speed required to counter. Sage mode Naruto out-maneuvered the Sandaime Raikage, yes. His speed was somewhat comparable to his son's, but he obviously wasn't quite as fast as Ei - even without the latter amping his shroud up. I just don't think Naruto could keep up with Ei; especially were he to use his shunshin.


The speed Ei used before going all out was directly compared to Sandaime raikage's speed, so there there is nothing that indicates he wasn't quite as fast as Ei.

Again you like every other poster that says Ei wins simply gives the lee example and then jumps from that and say "it's the same thing here" without giving any kind of argument for that.  SM Naruto didn't just dodge Sandaime raikage's attack, he was running full speed at Sandaime raikage, waited for his attack to get close, dodged it, and then accurately aimed a rasengan at his arm all of this before Sandaime could even react.

How do you go from that to Naruto not being able to keep up with Ei's speed?  Do you think Naruto won't even be able to guard himself against Ei's speed? 




Atlantic Storm said:


> On the other hand, Ei is weaker than his dad in terms of physical ability and he lacks a proper, slid attack like the nukite the Sandaime Raikage had. However, his attacks should still be strong enough to injure Naruto even with his durability (I believe kyūbi chakra mode Naruto commented on the sheer force of his attacks before when they had their skirmish) and a few solid hits should drop him. Meanwhile, at the same time, Ei is ridiculously durable and has enough pain tolerance to ignore Amaterasu flames coating his arm as well as chop said arm off without even flinching. They're going to hurt, *but I would imagine Ei's attacks would hurt Naruto a lot more than Naruto's would hurt him*.


I don't even know how you can assert the bolded.  Ei is going to take a SM rasengan (an attack much stronger than raikiri), oodama rasengan, chou oodama rasengan or fuuton rasensgan better than Naruto is going to take his hits?



Atlantic Storm said:


> Rasenshuriken probably isn't a good idea, either. Not only does it take out huge chunks of his natural energy reserves (which he really can't afford to lose here), but considering that the Sandaime Raikage could casually evade it, I don't doubt Ei could do the same with even more ease. It's just not very efficient here; especially considering sage mode Naruto can't guide or direct it like his kyūbi counterpart can.


Except he can expand it which ei has zero knowledge of and doesn't have the durability to survive.  Except he can thrust it into Ei or clash it with Ei's own attack when he comes in to blitz.


And of course, forget the fact naruto can make bunshins that have the same physical strength, reactions and footspeed as himself and can use all of his own techniques if given enough chakra.

Forget the fact that Naruto can summon ma and pa and have them use dust cloud, frog song, add another pair of eyes, and use fuutons.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> What exactly are you referring to here?


This is the maximum amount of damage from A's full speed, destroying a small portion of a cliff.




> What exactly makes you think the rhino is stronger than Ei? Just sheer size and mass alone? By that logic, Sakura should be considerably weaker than any summon, yet she was able to casually destroy one of Animal Realm's summons with a single hit. Ei is at least just as strong as her. Size means nothing here; Ei's attacks are just more focused.


Sakura one-shotted one of the SMALLER summons, not ones that Naruto fought in Sage Mode. And A, canonically, is weaker than someone with Chakra Enhanced Strength as well so it's not a comparison

The Rhino hitting at full force and speed with all that mass and sheer size>A's best punch. That's what I'm trying to get across.


> Are you _sure_ you should be saying this to me?


...sorry dude.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> This is the maximum amount of damage from A's full speed, destroying a small portion of a cliff.



Ah, I forgot about that. But what makes you think that was actually Ei's strongest punch, though? It seemed like just a normal punch, backed up by a lot of speed. 



> And A, canonically, is weaker than someone with Chakra Enhanced Strength as well so it's not a comparison



I have my doubts that Sakura is as strong as Ei, who could shatter Susano'o, a feat replicated only by Tsunade.



> The Rhino hitting at full force and speed with all that mass and sheer size>A's best punch. That's what I'm trying to get across.



I'm still somewhat skeptical that the rhino is stronger than Ei, but let's forget about that for a moment. Do you think Naruto could shrug it off if Ei, say, did a karate chop on his neck?



> ...sorry dude.



No problem.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Ah, I forgot about that. But what makes you think that was actually Ei's strongest punch, though? It seemed like just a normal punch, backed up by a lot of speed.


Since he is at maximum power by Bee's admission. That means that is his strongest punch.




> I have my doubts that Sakura is as strong as Ei, who could shatter Susano'o, a feat replicated only by Tsunade.


Sakura has the better strength feats, and this is before this which A doesn't even compare.




> I'm still somewhat skeptical that the rhino is stronger than Ei, but let's forget about that for a moment. Do you think Naruto could shrug it off if Ei, say, did a karate chop on his neck?


I think Naruto could feel that, but it'd take multiple blows. Naruto also has the feat, through his clone of tanking a stomp from Kurama, someone physically strong enough to dig out of the gravitational pull of Chibaku Tensei.

If one of Naruto's clones could tank strength from that, I'm not seeing how A's blows would be a problem other than their speed at the maximum level.

And on the other hand, I'm not seeing A tanking a Senjutsu Rasengan that's this strong, a Senpo: Odama Rasengan, Senpo: Cho Odama Rasengan, or Senpo: ChoOdama Rasentargen.


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## Luftwaffles (Oct 13, 2013)

Ei's dad was being controlled by Kabuto, so we have no idea if he was going top speed or not. IMO Ei is faster than SM Naruto and SM Naruto won't be able to dodge Ei's full speed. Also, I don't classify Naruto's mind feats as physical feats, the guy can't fly lol.


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## ueharakk (Oct 13, 2013)

Waffle said:


> Ei's dad was being controlled by Kabuto, so we have no idea if he was going top speed or not. IMO Ei is faster than SM Naruto and SM Naruto won't be able to dodge Ei's full speed.


by that logic, Sandaime raikage might even be FASTER than Ei since we don't know if he was going his fastest when Naruto directly compared his speed to Ei's non-max speed.



Waffle said:


> Also, I don't classify Naruto's mind feats as physical feats, the guy can't fly lol.


Unless you want to assert that naruto's durability, physical strength, speed, reactions, jutsu strength, or chakra capacity was for some reason altered when he fought Kurama, then you can't simply say "because he had an additional ability during the kurama fight, NONE of his other abilities were indicative of what naruto was capable in the real world".

No, the mind fight was a fight that opperated by the exact same rules that govern the real world baring 2 exceptions: flight and chakra rip.


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## Luftwaffles (Oct 13, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> by that logic, Sandaime raikage might even be FASTER than Ei since we don't know if he was going his fastest when Naruto directly compared his speed to Ei's non-max speed.
> 
> 
> Unless you want to assert that naruto's durability, physical strength, speed, reactions, jutsu strength, or chakra capacity was for some reason altered when he fought Kurama, then you can't simply say "because he had an additional ability during the kurama fight, NONE of his other abilities were indicative of what naruto was capable in the real world".


No, you just believe what you wanna believe. We've seen Ei's full speed and we've seen his dad's full speed. And there is no way that his dad has shown the better speed feats.

And yes, some were altered. He had unlimited SM in his mind, something he doesn't have the luxury in real life and he also flew. So yes, I'm asserting that his mind feats do not = his physical feats.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Waffle said:


> And yes, some were altered. He had unlimited SM in his mind, something he doesn't have the luxury in real life and he also flew. So yes, I'm asserting that his mind feats do not = his physical feats.


...Naruto never had Unlimited Sage Mode. He entered Sage Mode in the Real World, which transferred to his mental self and he had already been training for a longer Sage Mode duration. And Naruto's been flying in real life since chapter 617.


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## ueharakk (Oct 13, 2013)

Waffle said:


> No, you just believe what you wanna believe. We've seen Ei's full speed and we've seen his dad's full speed. And there is no way that his dad has shown the better speed feats.


You just flat out contradicted yourself.  If you want to assert that Kabuto might not have been using Sandaime's full speed then there's no way you can make the claim that "we've seen his dad's full speed."

So unless you take back your statement that "Kabuto might not have been using Sandaime's full speed" then you can't make both of those statements as they are logically incoherent.

If you want to argue this by feats, then I'm more than willing to concede Ei's dad is slower than a fully amped Ei, however you'd have to concede that Ei's dad is on par with his son's speed before Ei goes all out.  Also to touch on your first post: no one is arguing SM Naruto is faster than Ei or even Ei's dad.  Second, no one is arguing that SM Naruto dodges Ei's fastest punch.




Waffle said:


> And yes, some were altered. He had unlimited SM in his mind, something he doesn't have the luxury in real life and he also flew. So yes, I'm asserting that his mind feats do not = his physical feats.


No you would be asserting that SOME of his mind feats =/= his physical feats.  Is Naruto's physical strength in his mind greater than his real feats?  Is the power of his jutsu greater than his real feats?  How about his speed?  Reactions?  Intelligence?  Durability?  

Unless you give arguments for those things, then you saying "since there are some differences, then EVERYTHING is different" is a flat out logical atrocity.


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## richard lewis (Oct 13, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Ah, I forgot about that. But what makes you think that was actually Ei's strongest punch, though? It seemed like just a normal punch, backed up by a lot of speed.



Ei stated that it was his max powered punch and that he was attacks with intent to kill
ChoOdama Rasentargen.

Naruto at the very least should be able to block Ei's attack if he can't dodge it.


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## richard lewis (Oct 13, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> by that logic, Sandaime raikage might even be FASTER than Ei since we don't know if he was going his fastest when Naruto directly compared his speed to Ei's non-max speed.



Naruto compared Ei's speed to that of his fathers..... he never made any indications about max speed or regular speed or any of that nonsense. Naruto has seen Ei at his fastest, and he felt that the 3rd raikage was on the same level.


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## Kai (Oct 13, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> Naruto compared Ei's speed to that of his fathers..... he never made any indications about max speed or regular speed or any of that nonsense. Naruto has seen Ei at his fastest, and he felt that the 3rd raikage was on the same level.


Scan of a comparison being made?

Naruto said "Raikage are all fast!" which groups them together under a common denominator, not separate them for comparison.

Naruto experienced far more difficulty (several chapters worth!) of outmaneuvering A's speed than outmaneuvering Daddy Raikage's.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Kai said:


> Scan of a comparison being made?
> 
> Naruto said "Raikage are all fast!" which groups them together under a common denominator, not separate them for comparison.
> 
> Naruto experienced far more difficulty (several chapters worth!) of outmaneuvering A's speed than outmaneuvering Daddy Raikage's.


Naruto experienced far more difficulty since _he never tried fighting back._ Naruto was holding back the ENTIRE fight and didn't once use offensive moves, all he was trying to do was get around. Naruto directly compared A and the Sandaime side by side when he said 'All Raikage are fast' with a picture of A being there.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 13, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> Well gee, maybe the third couldn't replicate the feat b/c in SM naruto is faster than sasuke and has better precog due to his danger sensing.



You would have to back up both of those claims with evidence, if that's going to be the position you are arguing from. Sage Naruto was barely faster than any of the Pain bodies, the fastest of which (Tendou) was on Kakashi's level (same ballpark as Sasuke).



> As for KCM naruto "with chakra divided" being the same speed as itachi I'd disagree. Naruto never attempted to use his shushin against itachi he was just using regular speed.



Itachi never attempted Shunshin, either. Shunshin isn't typically used in Taijutsu unless there is an attempt to blitz.



> Similarly Ei isn't moving super fast all the time even with his raiton shroud up. He usually uses high speed in quick bursts and then goes back to using normal speed. Naruto does the same thing, along with every other speedster in the manga. So if a KCM naruto clone and sasuke had a short distance race naruto would definitely win, however in a fight naruto isn't going to be constantly zipping around at top speed so most of the time they would appear to be equal until naruto decides to use his yellow flash shushin.



Shunshin requires chakra, though, which in Naruto's case was split when he was fighting Itachi.



> Also I don't see why dividing his chakra would make the original naruto any weaker/slower. Naruto has been using mass KB his whole life and it has never shown a side effect of making the original slower.



Really? You haven't noticed how, every time Naruto spams a million clones, they tend to all get cut down like grass? 

Think about what KCM is in the first place- "Kyuubi *Chakra* Mode." Naruto receives a uniform boost to his abilities because he receives a tremendous boost in _*chakra*_. What should logically happen if that amount of chakra is reduced?



ueharakk said:


> niku, if you are going to respond to my post on the last thread, post it here if it's not a problem.



I might, but it'll depend on when I have time for it.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Their speeds are comparable, Rocky. In fact KCM Naruto directly compared A and the Sandaime Raikage's speed.



No, Naruto remarked that the Raikage were all fast; he didn't say that the 3rd was as fast as the 4th.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Luckily A doesn't use his full speed right off the bat.



That doesn't necessarily improve Naruto's chances of winning because there is plenty that he doesn't do right off the bat, either.



> And luckily Naruto in Sage Mode can sense the attack coming...and can outright tank the blow due to him tanking blows from fucking Kurama as well as a Shinra Tensei from Deva Path and the tens of thousands of tons of force behind the Boss Rhino charge.
> 
> Hell the damage from A's full speed isn't really that impressive compared to the Rhino Charge and Kurama's strength.



There is a huge flaw in that argument: you are comparing the strength of those attacks based on their area of effect.

A's fist has roughly the surface area of a volleyball.

The rhino summon, Shinra Tensei, and Kurama's paw all have a larger surface area than the human body.

Of course they are going to have a greater area of effect; what you are NOT taking into account is the fact that A's area of effect is many, many times the area of his fist while the area of effect of these other attacks is generally not much larger than the point of contact.

Think about what is actually hitting Naruto here.

Also think about the fact that the Hachibi and Susano'o didn't simply "tank" the Raikage's attacks, the way you're suggesting Naruto can in Sage Mode.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> You would have to back up both of those claims with evidence, if that's going to be the position you are arguing from. Sage Naruto was barely faster than any of the Pain bodies, the fastest of which (Tendou) was on Kakashi's level (same ballpark as Sasuke).


Sage Naruto was barely faster than any of the bodies? He outright blitzed Asura Path and kicked Deva Path's ass whenever they went CQC.




> Itachi never attempted Shunshin, either. Shunshin isn't typically used in Taijutsu unless there is an attempt to blitz.


...Itachi's second move in the fight was a Shunshin that Naruto intercepted.




> Shunshin requires chakra, though, which in Naruto's case was split when he was fighting Itachi.


Which is why Naruto wasn't at full strength when he fought Itachi.




> No, Naruto remarked that the Raikage were all fast; he didn't say that the 3rd was as fast as the 4th.


Except that visually, we have a direct comparison when Naruto said that comparing the Sandaime directly to A.




> That doesn't necessarily improve Naruto's chances of winning because there is plenty that he doesn't do right off the bat, either.


If A doesn't go all out, he won't win. Hell even with that, he won't win due to the buffs Sage Mode gives Naruto.




> There is a huge flaw in that argument: you are comparing the strength of those attacks based on their area of effect.
> 
> A's fist has roughly the surface area of a volleyball.
> 
> ...


The maximum power of A's full speed destroyed a small portion of a cliff. Naruto can tank attacks from creatures which can level multiple city blocks in an after effect. Hell the strongest Biju next to the Jyubi couldn't even damage him in Sage Mode even with the full force and power of his multiple mountain crushing strength behind him. 

A's damaging of the weakest Susano'o Ribcage, which showed its limit with the Liger bomb which couldn't even destroy the building. 

A isn't going to damage Sage Mode Naruto. He's way too durable in that form.


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## kaminogan (Oct 13, 2013)

so whats the concensus around here ?

also narutoscape naruto = regular naruto,


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## Kai (Oct 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto experienced far more difficulty since _he never tried fighting back._ Naruto was holding back the ENTIRE fight and didn't once use offensive moves, all he was trying to do was get around. Naruto directly compared A and the Sandaime side by side when he said 'All Raikage are fast' with a picture of A being there.


Naruto held the same level of shock at A's speed that he showed in response to 3rd Raikage's durability against  FRS.

Naruto noted the 3rd was fast but it didn't bewilder him. He stated "all the Raikage are fast" not "Grandpa Raikage is on par with that Raikage"

When it's stated "All Uchiha are strong in fire release" it doesn't mean all Uchiha's are comparable with each other in fire release.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sage Naruto was barely faster than any of the bodies? He outright blitzed Asura Path and kicked Deva Path's ass whenever they went CQC.



As you can see about mid-way through that page, Naruto sensed Pain's attack in advance. It's a good feat, but not an honest comparison of their movement speed. I'm sure you also remember Gakidou dodging his punch. This also happened:

Asura Path

(There's your Sage Mode durability that the Raikage can't hurt, btw.)

Tendou blocked Sage Naruto's kick and dodged his FRS. Like I said, there wasn't a big difference in their speed, if any.



> ...Itachi's second move in the fight was a Shunshin that Naruto intercepted.



Where's the Shunshin? Itachi is falling there. What did he Shunshin off of, a cloud?

That puff of smoke is from his Kage Bunshin dispersing; we've seen this before a million times, so it amazes me that you didn't recognize it.



> Which is why Naruto wasn't at full strength when he fought Itachi.



I never disputed that, but there is a difference between not being at full strength and intentionally holding back.



> Except that visually, we have a direct comparison when Naruto said that comparing the Sandaime directly to A.



He didn't compare them. He just said they were both fast.



> If A doesn't go all out, he won't win. Hell even with that, he won't win due to the buffs Sage Mode gives Naruto.



There are no Sage Mode buffs that save Naruto from getting his head chopped off after a blitz from behind.

Naruto's only chance is for the Raikage to underestimate him and get blindsided with FRS.



> The maximum power of A's full speed destroyed a small portion of a cliff. Naruto can tank attacks from creatures which can level multiple city blocks in an after effect. Hell the strongest Biju next to the Jyubi couldn't even damage him in Sage Mode even with the full force and power of his multiple mountain crushing strength behind him.
> 
> A's damaging of the weakest Susano'o Ribcage, which showed its limit with the Liger bomb which couldn't even destroy the building.



Since you didn't read anything I said, I'll just copy and past it again and bold the important parts:

*There is a huge flaw in that argument: you are comparing the strength of those attacks based on their area of effect.

A's fist has roughly the surface area of a volleyball.

The rhino summon, Shinra Tensei, and Kurama's paw all have a larger surface area than the human body.*

Of course they are going to have a greater area of effect; *what you are NOT taking into account is the fact that A's area of effect is many, many times the area of his fist while the area of effect of these other attacks is generally not much larger than the point of contact.*

Think about what is actually hitting Naruto here.

---

Sage Naruto never tanked "multiple mountain crushing strength." That is obscenely inconsistent with what has actually been able to damage him (such as Pain's black rods). You need to actually read my arguments before you go rehashing points I've already addressed.

Having a bigger area of effect doesn't mean the attack is stronger. The Kyuubi and that rhino summon have gigantic bodies; A does not. You are comparing them based on results that have more to do with their size than their strength and then completely ignoring what _actually_ hits Naruto.



> A isn't going to damage Sage Mode Naruto. He's way too durable in that form.



No he isn't; A decapitates him easily with a karate chop, like he did to the Hachibi's horn, which withstood Bijuudama.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Kai said:


> Naruto held the same level of shock at A's speed that he showed in response to 3rd Raikage's durability against  FRS.
> 
> Naruto noted the 3rd was fast but it didn't bewilder him. He stated "all the Raikage are fast" not "Grandpa Raikage is on par with that Raikage"
> 
> When it's stated "All Uchiha are strong in fire release" it doesn't mean all Uchiha's are comparable with each other in fire release.


Naruto specifically pictures A in his head when he compares the two Raikages in speed. Why would he express surprise or shock if he already knew what he was getting into when it comes to speed?


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## Kai (Oct 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto specifically pictures A in his head when he compares the two Raikages in speed. Why would he express surprise or shock if he already knew what he was getting into when it comes to speed?


How does "All Raikage are fast" somehow mean Naruto is specifically comparing both Raikage's speed with _one another_?

Naruto said Raikage are fast and pictured A, who is the other Raikage we have seen previously. 

"Raikage's are fast"
"Uchihas are strong in fire release"
"Sannin have their transformations"

No one is making comparisons among specific members of the categories they belong to.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> As you can see about mid-way through that page, Naruto sensed Pain's attack in advance. It's a good feat, but not an honest comparison of their movement speed. I'm sure you also remember Gakidou dodging his punch. This also happened:
> 
> both kyuubis
> 
> (There's your Sage Mode durability that the Raikage can't hurt, btw.)


...Naruto wasn't even hurt by that punch. Did you ignore the next page where he was fine?


> Tendou blocked Sage Naruto's kick and dodged his FRS. Like I said, there wasn't a big difference in their speed, if any.


Deva blocked the kick but couldn't get up to defend itself from the FRS. Remember SM Naruto kicking Deva's ass with such ease? And Deva dodged the FRS with a lot of difficulty compared to Sandaime Raikage.




> Where's the Shunshin? Itachi is falling there. What did he Shunshin off of, a cloud?
> 
> That puff of smoke is from his Kage Bunshin dispersing; we've seen this before a million times, so it amazes me that you didn't recognize it.


Itachi _never fucking made a Kage Bushin!_ The cloud of smoke is from his shunshin, its a side effect we get at times. 




> I never disputed that, but there is a difference between not being at full strength and intentionally holding back.


Its still holding back when Naruto doesn't even use any offensive techniques which are his rasion d'tre.




> He didn't compare them. He just said they were both fast.


He did compare them. He even fucking pictured A in his mind when he said they both were fast!




> There are no Sage Mode buffs that save Naruto from getting his head chopped off after a blitz from behind.


A is definitely not blitzing Naruto or cutting off his head. Naruto's durability will allow him to survive a Lightning Horizontal and he can sense and react to A.


> Naruto's only chance is for the Raikage to underestimate him and get blindsided with FRS.


Naruto doesn't _need_ a FRS to win. A Sage Mode Rasengan is more than powerful enough to kill A.



> *There is a huge flaw in that argument: you are comparing the strength of those attacks based on their area of effect.
> 
> A's fist has roughly the surface area of a volleyball.
> 
> ...


Yeah, an attack with a lot less force and power than what Naruto has dealt with. Naruto has already tanked things with a lot more power behind them then A. A, who can't even destroy a building and destroys a small part of a cliff is supposed to be strong enough to damage Sage Mode Naruto who goes literal toe to toe with Kaiju?




> Sage Naruto never tanked "multiple mountain crushing strength." That is obscenely inconsistent with what has actually been able to damage him (such as Pain's black rods). You need to actually read my arguments before you go rehashing points I've already addressed.
> 
> Having a bigger area of effect doesn't mean the attack is stronger. The Kyuubi and that rhino summon have gigantic bodies; A does not. You are comparing them based on results that have more to do with their size than their strength and then completely ignoring what _actually_ hits Naruto.


Pain's Chakra Rods _are fucking extensions of Madara Uchiha's will_, are three times sharper than steel, and have only damaged Naruto when he purposely stabs himself or lets Nagato pierce him so he can screw him up with the chakra backlash. A has a lot less power than Kurama and the Rhino Summon due to his physical strength not being as great and due to not having as much mass. Kurama can literally _dig out of fucking Chibaku Tensei_ without any difficulty while he has just eight tails manifested. And he smashes a SM Naruto clone to the ground and...the clone doesn't puff away until the feint is over. It tanked all that physical strength. Thus Sage Mode Naruto has that level of durability. 




> No he isn't; A decapitates him easily with a karate chop, like he did to the Hachibi's horn, which withstood Bijuudama.


Not this fucking shit again. A will never decapitate Naruto 'easily'. Your love of him really blinds you to the fact he isn't this physically powerful. Severing Gyuki's horn isn't that impressive at all. Its not like A severed a fucking arm which Gyuki can't afford to lose. Horns and tentacles? Gyuki can regrow. His fucking arm which survived a mauling from Kokuo? Not so much



Kai said:


> How does "All Raikage are fast" somehow mean Naruto is specifically comparing both Raikage's speed with _one another_?
> 
> Naruto said Raikage are fast and pictured A, who is the other Raikage we have seen previously.
> 
> ...


I think that Kishimoto was making it so that both A and his dad have around the same level of speed in that comparison. I mean seriously, said extreme speed deals with how much chakra A has, remember? And his dad has enough to fight an entire army for three days and nights and stalemate Gyuki. So why exactly would the Sandaime be slower by a significant amount than A? Tell me that. Please.


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