# John Cena vs Ultimate Warrior



## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 28, 2011)

two of the biggest icon of pro wrestling and most divided on opinion wise in modern pro wrestling history duke it out.

1, better character

2, better wrestler

3, better promos

4, keyfabe vskeyfabe who'd win? (warriors in his prime so is cena in terms of popularity)

bonus match up: Lou thesz and Karl Gotch vs Kurt angle and chris benoit in a tag team technical match 

hows this go?


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## Superbot400 (Feb 28, 2011)

John Cena was SOOOOOO much better when he was a heel. Overall, I going to have say that Ultimate Warrior wins in a clear fucking sweep.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 28, 2011)

Superbot400 said:


> John Cena was SOOOOOO much better when he was a heel. Overall, I going to have say that Ultimate Warrior wins in a clear fucking sweep.



PG Cena is a hulk hogan stu with out any of the fun that Hogan had true enough

what about the other match?


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## Proxy (Feb 28, 2011)

Cena, icon? You best be trollin'.

He's nowhere near UW level.


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## Platinum (Feb 28, 2011)

The ultimate warrior stomps Cena's ass.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 28, 2011)

Platinum said:


> The ultimate warrior stomps Cena's ass.



body slamming andre vs Fuing the big show? 



Proxy said:


> Cena, icon? You best be trollin'.
> 
> He's nowhere near UW level.



Apparently he is the new face of the WWE and it seems like he is being pushed to take hogans place as a long term babyface


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Feb 28, 2011)

Ultimate warrior man he looks like the aztec chief from jjba chapter 1


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## Nevermind (Feb 28, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Apparently he is the new face of the WWE and it seems like he is being pushed to take hogans place as a long term babyface



Yep and it's been boring as hell.

I will admit however that he did cut some pretty good disses on The Rock last week. I wish they'd turn him heel but too many kids buy his merchandise.

Oh, and I'm just gonna go ahead and say UW wins because the level of competition in terms of star power he faced was much bigger than superman Cena's competition (does anybody really expect Miz to win at Wrestlemania?).


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## Tranquil Fury (Feb 28, 2011)

I honestly don't understand the logic of this spite, Warrior was basically a more retarded muscle man type and a failed push. Not a fan of Cena but nostalgia aside using Hogan and Warrior to spite Cena is lulz worthy when you're basically using two similar guys with bigger ego and equally bad wrestling skill as Cena, Hogan will always be a legend for help starting it all but nostalgia aside he's stale as well. There were better choices to go with. Warrior had about as much skill as a wrestler as Hogan which was 0 since everyone who knew Hogan either gave him a 0 or said he "his grandmother can do a better leg drop". So wrestling wise Hogan, Warrior and Cena are even. Warrior was a retard in his promos, Cena is just boring with his childish PG era lines so they're about even here. 

Speaking of insane promos:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYRJLr90vSA[/YOUTUBE]

The good old days.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Feb 28, 2011)

People who think still Cena's a bad wrestler really don't know what they're talking about. 

Hell, even Hogan was a pretty decent wrestler when he wanted to be, he was just a massive lazy-ass bitch 85% of the time.


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## Tranquil Fury (Feb 28, 2011)

Hogan was'nt bad in japan I guess. Still an egotistical ass. For Cena I just don't remember a match where he was'nt carried, if you're refering to his early days then it's possible since he appears to be limited to big man moveset.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Feb 28, 2011)

He hasn't been carried since 2005 and it's more like he's been the one doing the carrying since the initial Edge feud in 2006. After the light came on for him in 2006, he's been one of the best in the business outside of '08 when he came back way too soon from the shoulder surgery and it showed. The only guy who's been more consistently good than he has is Rey Mysterio. Also, movesets literally mean dick-all in professional wrestling and is a horrible argument for saying who's good and who isn't. Davey Richards does like 50,000 moves in all his matches, but he still sucks dick as a wrestler.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Feb 28, 2011)

Hogan wrestled just fine. Being a wrestler isn't determined by how many holds you can perform. It's determined by how well you tell a story and The Hulkster was a master at that

Anyway:



> 1, better character



Warrior because he actually played a character. Cena kinda just plays himself but with a side of fantasy. That's what the big names do these days really.




> 2, better wrestler



Cena, duh.



> 3, better promos



Obviously Warrior. 



> 4, keyfabe vskeyfabe who'd win? (warriors in his prime so is cena in terms of popularity)



Warrior defeated Prime Hogan.

Cena can't compare.



> bonus match up: Lou thesz and Karl Gotch vs Kurt angle and chris benoit in a tag team technical match



Benoit kills them both with the Crippler Crossface.


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## Violent by Design (Feb 28, 2011)

The better character...I don't know. I'm not really fond of either character. I guess I'd go with Ultimate Warrior because of how insane he is. Cena's personality is the weakest part about him, he isn't very flamboyant and at the same time he isn't serious. Warrior had over the top charisma, probably because he was a legit retard.

Better wrestler...not even a contest. You're seriously comparing John Cena to the Ultimate Warrior? My god, I know people don't like Cena but seriously. The Ultimate Warrior doesn't know how to wrestle at all. He can squash people, that is it. Watch Warrior vs Hogan at Wrestlemania, he gasses out a minute into the match. Cena is a great wrestler in his own right, one of the best in the WWE. He can wrestle on par with other great wrestlers like Shawn Michaels and RVD, carry wrestlers who are good but not great like HHH and Edge, and carry guys who are worthless like Batista, Lashley and Khali. Not even a contest.

Better promo.... Cena because he knows how to cut one. Warrior will just yell about shit that doesn't make sense. Hypes people up for sure, but he is limited in what he can do. Cena can get other people over as well as at least remind everyone whats happening in his plotline. Warrior is nothing but jibberish, he is entirely charisma. He doesn't know how to talk at all. Cena by a long shot.

Kayfabe....Warrior. Warrior beat red and yellow Hogan cleanly. Hogan is the strongest dude in the WWE. Cena's best win is probably against heel Batista or heel HHH, which both guys haven't done anything to really compare to Hogan's dominance.


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## Proxy (Feb 28, 2011)

If you're talking about promos, The Rock trumps them all


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Feb 28, 2011)

Meh, I never thought Rock was all that good at actual promos.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 28, 2011)

Shadow Replication 1480 said:


> People who think still Cena's a bad wrestler really don't know what they're talking about.



true enough and compared to Jim Cenas a gold medalist but the man seems stiff today 



Shadow Replication 1480 said:


> Hell, even Hogan was a pretty decent wrestler when he wanted to be, he was just a massive lazy-ass bitch 85% of the time.



yeah hogan could put on a great match I'm not sure where that came from



Shadow Replication 1480 said:


> Meh, I never thought Rock was all that good at actual promos.



really? he came off like my generations macho man..or roberts to me I mean his promos always got a reaction and from what i've seen allot louder then any one else around now



Zaelapolopollo said:


> Benoit kills them both with the Crippler Crossface.



what?!!


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## Sabotage (Feb 28, 2011)

Should've used The Rock or Stone Cold


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## Matta Clatta (Feb 28, 2011)

Ultimate Warrior actually has a gimmick all Cena has is a purple shirt........As far as wrestling goes they both suck and Cena can carry a match if he has to but he gets carried way more then he should. Warrior can cut a damn good promo(Huuuuulk Hoogan!!) and hes 10 times more entertaining then Cena ever was nostalgia shades off even.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Feb 28, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> really? he came off like my generations macho man..or roberts to me I mean his promos always got a reaction and from what i've seen allot louder then any one else around now


My problem with Rock's promos is that while he's definitely funny, he tends to bury people more than help a feud along and he's pretty much been the fore-bearer of the CONSTANTLY YELLING PROMOS that are permeating the business right now and makes a lot of guys all sound the same. I just can't compare him to Jake as Roberts at his best pretty much skewers Rock on the mic from a promo standpoint. 

It's only my opinion obviously, so what do I know, right?


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Feb 28, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Ultimate Warrior actually has a gimmick all Cena has is a purple shirt........


Characters and gimmicks are two entirely different things. 



> As far as wrestling goes they both suck and Cena can carry a match if he has to but he gets carried way more then he should.


Yeeeeaaaah... no.



> *Warrior can cut a damn good promo(Huuuuulk Hoogan!!)* and hes 10 times more entertaining then Cena ever was nostalgia shades off even.


No.


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## Darth inVaders (Feb 28, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> two of the biggest icon of pro wrestling and most divided on opinion wise in modern pro wrestling history duke it out.
> 
> 1, better character
> 
> ...



1 Warrior (Cena when he was a heel)

2 eeehhhhhh... push

3 Cena when he was a heel (Warrior rambles too much, face Cena's poser character should have never been taken so seriously as to try to claim it's not a poser character)

4 eeeehhhhhh...

bonus: I cannot give any accolades to a child killer - Benoit's entire legacy is tarnished


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 28, 2011)

Shadow Replication 1480 said:


> My problem with Rock's promos is that while he's definitely funny, he tends to bury people more than help a feud along and he's pretty much been the fore-bearer of the CONSTANTLY YELLING PROMOS that are permeating the business right now and makes a lot of guys all sound the same. I just can't compare him to Jake as Roberts at his best pretty much skewers Rock on the mic from a promo standpoint.
> 
> It's only my opinion obviously, so what do I know, right?



no I agree with you that he's not on roberts level  more he was my gens Jake the substitution we got mind you rock burying people probably had more to do with them then his own promos I mean I don't recall Rock ever truly burying Steve or hell even H and if anything he's one of the reasons Jericho got as far as he did

I always thought the yelling thing came from Warrior and Savage and that rock was just the most recent guy to do it? but if so..damn rock thanks for that 



Darth inVaders said:


> bonus: I cannot give any accolades to a child killer - Benoit's entire legacy is tarnished



alright switch out Benoit for Bret Hart


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Feb 28, 2011)

While Rock didn't really feud with the cream of the crop, guys like Austin, Hunter, and Taker were pretty much bulletproof heat-wise, so they would've been over regardless of whether or not Rock made them look bad on the mic. Jericho's probably the lone case where Rock changed things up in how he handled his promos against others and it showed(though they pretty much pissed it away with the HHH WM feud afterward).


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## Deleted member 45015 (Feb 28, 2011)

> 1, better character



Ultimate Warrior.

The guy legally changed his name to "Warrior". _That's _how in to his character he is. Cena can't top that.



> 2, better wrestler



Cena. The Warrior has been slated numerous times for being a bad worker and having to be carried in his matches. A lot of his matches basically have him get destroyed for a few minutes and then come back because he was that limited in his in-ring capability.



> 3, better promos



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laiZgrIpbcA[/YOUTUBE]

You can't beat Warriors "Ho Kogan" rant for Wrestlemania 6 



> 4, keyfabe vskeyfabe who'd win? (warriors in his prime so is cena in terms of popularity)



Keyfabe-wise, all in-rang ability aside...the Ultimate Warrior in his Prime, with the push he got, takes it hands down against anyone bar The Undertaker at Wrestlemania (who's nigh-omnipotent). Warrior beat Hulk Hogan clean at Wrestlemania, something that had never been done before and _was a big deal at the time _since Hogan was effectively the #1 guy. Add to that taking 5 top rope elbows from Randy Savage at Wrestlemania 7 and the dude handles Cena easily.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Feb 28, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> what?!!



It was a (tasteless) joke.


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## Nevermind (Feb 28, 2011)

John Cena again proved tonight that he cuts really bad promos. Don't know if it's the PG shackles or just him- but his jokes about Miz were terrible. Miz was much better and got more heat from the crowd. He did a good job against Rock with his rapper gimmick though. He really should go back to that or at least do something different. It's like he's got no gimmick at all...just...staleness.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Feb 28, 2011)

A common complaint I hear on forums is that promos are too scripted. I was told (so this could be BS for all I know) that wrestlers were given a lore more leeway in the Attitude Era to ad lib so the promos came more naturally.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 1, 2011)

The thing is PG era or not you don't need to curse or make toilet humor jokes to have a good promo but please none of this Cenation, JBL is poopy, Ham Sammich crap. Yeah Cena does'nt do the last two anymore but you get the idea.


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## Lucifeller (Mar 1, 2011)

> wrestlers who are good but not great like HHH and Edge





> good but not great





> Edge



What. The. Hell? Edge not great? Anyone remember his TLCs with Christian? Or his Last Man Standing matches? Or really any match with high flying spots Edge was in before this crappy Rated R Superstar gimmick and him constantly cashing in MitBs on exhausted opponents and using the Spear as finisher even though he's too thin to make it convincing (whereas Goldberg was stocky enough to make it look like it hurt)?

Edge owns Cena for free when it comes to wrestling skills, with shipping, handling and taxes included.

Also, CENA CAN'T SELL. He couldn't sell being tired or actually being hurt even if his family's lives were on the line. He sucks at looking convincingly hurt, tired or exerted in nearly all his longer matches. Particularly insulting was one time when he was trashed the whole match, then all of a sudden STF-U, tap out... and he JUMPS UP AND ENERGETICALLY CELEBRATES. Forgetting that, y'know, he had the shit beat out of him for nearly 15 minutes up until then.

I'm not asking him to oversell like Rocky or HBK can (lol @ HBK vs. Hogan), but he could at the very least, y'know, pretend he's in pain from a beating or tired. Instead he either looks constipated or fails to sell at all.


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## Violent by Design (Mar 1, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> What. The. Hell? Edge not great? Anyone remember his TLCs with Christian? Or his Last Man Standing matches? Or really any match with high flying spots Edge was in before this crappy Rated R Superstar gimmick and him constantly cashing in MitBs on exhausted opponents and using the Spear as finisher even though he's too thin to make it convincing (whereas Goldberg was stocky enough to make it look like it hurt)?


Yeah....except Cena never wrestled Edge during that era. So what relevance does that have? I mean I mentioned HHH in the same sentence as Edge, and you're going on a tangent about the latter? HHH in his prime was way better than Edge ~_~. I'm obviously talking about when they wrestled Cena, in which they were not great wrestlers. 



> Edge owns Cena for free when it comes to wrestling skills, with shipping, handling and taxes included.


I didn't necessarily say other wise, and personally I've always thought Cena was better than Edge. 



> Also, CENA CAN'T SELL.


And Edge has no offense.



> He couldn't sell being tired or actually being hurt even if his family's lives were on the line. He sucks at looking convincingly hurt, tired or exerted in nearly all his longer matches. Particularly insulting was one time when he was trashed the whole match, then all of a sudden STF-U, tap out... and he JUMPS UP AND ENERGETICALLY CELEBRATES. Forgetting that, y'know, he had the shit beat out of him for nearly 15 minutes up until then.


 Cena sells during his match ~_~...how else would he get the crowd behind him. He no sells at the end like Hogan. Not sure why you'd have to mention that, it's not like it is hidden.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 1, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> What. The. Hell? Edge not great?


He's not. 



> Anyone remember his TLCs with Christian?


What the hell do multi-man stunt bump matches like ladder matches have to do with actual wrestling talent?



> Or his Last Man Standing matches?


I don't remember him being in any LMS off the top of my head other than the Backlash '09 match against Cena.



> Or really any match with high flying spots Edge was in before this crappy Rated R Superstar gimmick and him constantly cashing in MitBs on exhausted opponents and using the Spear as finisher even though he's too thin to make it convincing (whereas Goldberg was stocky enough to make it look like it hurt)?


Doing high-flying spots doesn't mean you know how to wrestle. 



> Edge owns Cena for free when it comes to wrestling skills, with shipping, handling and taxes included.






> Also, CENA CAN'T SELL. He couldn't sell being tired or actually being hurt even if his family's lives were on the line. He sucks at looking convincingly hurt, tired or exerted in nearly all his longer matches. Particularly insulting was one time when he was trashed the whole match, then all of a sudden STF-U, tap out... and he JUMPS UP AND ENERGETICALLY CELEBRATES. Forgetting that, y'know, he had the shit beat out of him for nearly 15 minutes up until then.


It's a standard babyface trope in pro wrestling. Go watch any babyface all throughout modern wrestling history and watch them do the same thing(it's especially true for WWF/E faces). They sell exhaustion when there's a point to it like being thrown into another match(see Orton and Cena last year when Miz and Batista beat them for the WWE Title after they were just in a grueling match less than a minute ago).



> I'm not asking him to oversell like Rocky or HBK can (lol @ HBK vs. Hogan), but he could at the very least, y'know, pretend he's in pain from a beating or tired. Instead he either looks constipated or fails to sell at all.


Like VBD said, the crowds wouldn't pop for him if he *wasn't* selling.


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## Lucifeller (Mar 2, 2011)

The only crowds that pop for Cena are the women and the kids. Male fans, for the most part, can't stand him. There's a reason why, when the crowd is predominantly male, he gets the hell booed out of him - to the point that in several cases WWE had to EDIT THE CROWD OUT.

Cena would be better off being a heel at this point, but brats and lovestruck broads buy his merch, so WWE is milking him as a babyface as much as it can. That's the ONLY reason why Cena 1) is still a face and 2) gets cheered at all.

That, or the crowd hates the other guy more than they hate Cena (case in point, Miz, or hell, basically anyone Cena has been put up against lately). But it can't possibly be good for WWE when Randy Orton punts their top face in the head and the crowd CHEERS FOR ORTON...

On top of that, The Rock comes back, and in a 10 minute promo he gets a bigger pop than Cena had in his whole career in WWE. And he made fun of him for that whole promo to boot...


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 2, 2011)

You basically have gone off in a tangent about how Cena sucks which does nothing to counter the rest of the arguments.


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## Nevermind (Mar 2, 2011)

Tranquil, I was going to say that I agreed with you with that second promo you edited out for some reason. It was a huge disappointment. Rock seemed butthurt all the way through and was engaging in what could be seen as approval seeking behavior, subtly acknowledging Cena's superiority.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 2, 2011)

I edited it out because then we'd go onto more tangents but yeah compared to his other stuff this was nowhere as good.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 2, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> The only crowds that pop for Cena are the women and the kids. Male fans, for the most part, can't stand him. There's a reason why, when the crowd is predominantly male, he gets the hell booed out of him - to the point that in several cases WWE had to EDIT THE CROWD OUT.


He's not marketed to the male fans. Hell, at this point, the WWE basically books him to get that kind of reaction since it makes for more heated matches.



> Cena would be better off being a heel at this point, but brats and lovestruck broads buy his merch, so WWE is milking him as a babyface as much as it can. That's the ONLY reason why Cena 1) is still a face and 2) gets cheered at all.


So the WWE should just kill the golden goose to appease a select group of fans while pissing off what makes 'em the most money? BRILLIANT! While we're at it, let's turn Rey Mysterio too since the males in the crowd have booed him before also! 



> That, or the crowd hates the other guy more than they hate Cena (case in point, Miz, or hell, basically anyone Cena has been put up against lately). But it can't possibly be good for WWE when Randy Orton punts their top face in the head and the crowd CHEERS FOR ORTON...






> On top of that, The Rock comes back, and in a 10 minute promo he gets a bigger pop than Cena had in his whole career in WWE. And he made fun of him for that whole promo to boot...


I would certainly hope Rock would get a huge pop when he shows up live after being away for *SEVEN YEARS*. 



> You basically have gone off in a tangent about how Cena sucks which does nothing to counter the rest of the arguments.


To be fair, no one supporting Edge has a leg to stand on when comparing him as a wrestler to Cena.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 2, 2011)

damn edge is really that bad?


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 3, 2011)

He's been better this past year than he was before, but trying to compare him to a legit top 3-5 guy like Cena is just crazy, though.


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## Lucifeller (Mar 3, 2011)

The problem is that Cena is not a good wrestler. He's a good ENTERTAINER, and that's it. When it comes to actual mat skills, let me see... first off he has all of TWO moves that work the back (and one of them, the F-U, is a finisher on its own, so it's not used often enough to, y'know, wear a body part out, while the other is part of his Five Moves of Doom), so him slapping the STF-U on and getting the opponent to tap out like a little bitch immediately is an insult to any and all submission specialists who spend entire matches believably setting up their own finisher submission.

Secondly, as mentioned he fails spectacularly to convincingly sell pain and tiredness - when he's in a submission hold himself he looks constipated and like he has to urgently take a dump, not in pain, and there's no way someone who's had his ass handed to him on a platter for half an hour can simply slap on a STF-U, get the tapout and then jump up and start celebrating left and right while looking fresh as a rose. That's not convincing selling, that's the very reason why some people insist wrestling is fake - it kills any belief you may have had up until that point and REALLY makes it look fake.

In both of these categories Edge is just plain better - when he did have a submission move (the Edgecator), he actually worked the legs with low hits and heel holds before applying it, and when he gets hit hard he actyually looks properly in pain. And after a long match, he has the decency to look exhausted, instead of being some sort of fucking superhero - even Undertaker, who's supposed to be a ZOMBIE WRESTLER, shows tiredness after a stiff match, why the hell does Cena end up being the only one who after half an hour of being bashed to Kibbles'n'Bits, just HAPPENS to hit a submission out of nowhere and win?

I could understand it if it was a chokehold like the Gogoplata (because lack of oxygen WILL to that to you), but the STF hits the back of a wrestler. Without working a part over, a submission should FAIL. But no, SuperCena gets the tapout whenever he wants.

The only credit I can give Cena is that he's better than the Warrior, but that's only because the Warrior abused steroids so much he ran out of gas during his INTRO and simply couldn't wrestle. It's like saying Cena is better than a strawman... which isn't saying much at all.

And while he gets pushed, better wrestlers get buried in the midcard or just fired over trivial things, usually because WWE has decided that it needs to be PG-flavored... forgetting that it was the Attitude era that saved it from sharing WCW's fate.

Sorry for the rant, but the current state of WWE infuriates me. This just proves that WCW WAS important - it provided competition. With the competition gone, Vince felt entitled to feed trash to his fans because after all, what ELSE were they gonna watch? And quality has been decaying ever since, with such 'gems' as Hornswoggle, Kane going from a masked menace to a huge bald high profile jobber, and THE GREAT KHALAAAAAAATSHDFHBS.

...I'll go calm down now.


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## The last Dalek (Mar 3, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> Yep and it's been boring as hell.
> 
> I will admit however that he did cut some pretty good disses on The Rock last week. I wish they'd turn him heel but too many kids buy his merchandise.



Tob be fair to Cena he has asked to be turned heel but Vince wouldnt let it happen.

Annyway 

1: Warrior

2: Aprently Cena was pretty good in OVW.

3: Heel Cena all the way.

4:Warrior beat 80's Hogan clean the only people who would be able to stop him are Wrestlemania Undertaker and Goldberg.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 3, 2011)

To be fair back in the day the business was much different, it was more of a circus type attraction so you could have someone like Andre go for 15 years or so without being pinned or submit while people would believe it, these kayfabe battles don't work for Hogan because he's either in a much older time, has backstage pull in WCW, contracted wrestler or some pull in his contract(HBK and Orton) or he's part of TNA. He kind of fluctuates more than any wrestler. He was pinned by HHH after he kicked out of the leg drop, beaten by the Rock and Brock bearhugged him to death in 2002 or so but during his comebacks he beats HBK and Orton. 

Warrior was a failed push. Actually these kayfabe battles rarely work, wrestlers fluctuate a lot look at Kane now and when he first debuted. Undertaker at mania is the only constant really. Arguing mic skills, better gimmick etc is more preferable IMO.

Also Undertaker's character has changed a lot throughout the years, he's not a zombie who no sells everything because he feels no pain anymore. It's basically now just a guy who plays mind games and appears to be psychotic.


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## Violent by Design (Mar 3, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> To be fair back in the day the business was much different, it was more of a circus type attraction so you could have someone like Andre go for 15 years or so without being pinned or submit while people would believe it, these kayfabe battles don't work for Hogan because he's either in a much older time, has backstage pull in WCW, contracted wrestler or some pull in his contract(HBK and Orton) or he's part of TNA. He kind of fluctuates more than any wrestler. He was pinned by HHH after he kicked out of the leg drop, beaten by the Rock and Brock bearhugged him to death in 2002 or so but during his comebacks he beats HBK and Orton.
> 
> Warrior was a failed push. Actually these kayfabe battles rarely work, wrestlers fluctuate a lot look at Kane now and when he first debuted. Undertaker at mania is the only constant really. Arguing mic skills, better gimmick etc is more preferable IMO.
> 
> Also Undertaker's character has changed a lot throughout the years, he's not a zombie who no sells everything because he feels no pain anymore. It's basically now just a guy who plays mind games and appears to be psychotic.




Hogan lost when he was older, how is that any different than an actual combat sport?


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 3, 2011)

No he kayfabewise beat HBK and later on even Orton who kayfabewise was a former champ with clean victories over guys like Benoit and HHH. He physically has no problem with the Great Khali who kayfabewise is big and physically stronger than a man of Hogan's age. 

Kayfabewise it really won't work for anyone. Khali once beat up the Undertaker now just about anyone can beat him. Kayfabe battles don't work too well which was my point.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 3, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> The problem is that Cena is not a good wrestler. He's a good ENTERTAINER, and that's it.


When you have as many good matches as Cena's had with as many different opponents, then you're a good wrestler. 



> When it comes to actual mat skills, let me see... first off he has all of TWO moves that work the back (and one of them, the F-U, is a finisher on its own, so it's not used often enough to, y'know, wear a body part out, while the other is part of his Five Moves of Doom), so him slapping the STF-U on and getting the opponent to tap out like a little bitch immediately is an insult to any and all submission specialists who spend entire matches believably setting up their own finisher submission.


LOLMOVESETZ~!



> Secondly, as mentioned he fails spectacularly to convincingly sell pain and tiredness - when he's in a submission hold himself he looks constipated and like he has to urgently take a dump, not in pain, and there's no way someone who's had his ass handed to him on a platter for half an hour can simply slap on a STF-U, get the tapout and then jump up and start celebrating left and right while looking fresh as a rose. That's not convincing selling, that's the very reason why some people insist wrestling is fake - it kills any belief you may have had up until that point and REALLY makes it look fake.


Say it with me now.. BABY. FACE. TROPE. 



> In both of these categories Edge is just plain better - when he did have a submission move (the Edgecator), he actually worked the legs with low hits and heel holds before applying it, and when he gets hit hard he actyually looks properly in pain.


Nah, he just looks bug-eyed. 



> And after a long match, he has the decency to look exhausted, instead of being some sort of fucking superhero - even Undertaker, who's supposed to be a ZOMBIE WRESTLER, shows tiredness after a stiff match, why the hell does Cena end up being the only one who after half an hour of being bashed to Kibbles'n'Bits, just HAPPENS to hit a submission out of nowhere and win?


Because Taker's an old man who doesn't have the gas tank he used to? Hell, he hasn't even been the "zombie" for over a decade now.



> I could understand it if it was a chokehold like the Gogoplata (because lack of oxygen WILL to that to you), but the STF hits the back of a wrestler. Without working a part over, a submission should FAIL. But no, SuperCena gets the tapout whenever he wants.


Le sigh... Antiquated smartmark talking points for the loss, eh? The STF stretches the neck along with the back and given how he does use moves that target both the neck and the back, that would be construed as building up to his finishers. Funny how that works, eh?



> The only credit I can give Cena is that he's better than the Warrior, but that's only because the Warrior abused steroids so much he ran out of gas during his INTRO and simply couldn't wrestle. It's like saying Cena is better than a strawman... which isn't saying much at all.






> And while he gets pushed, better wrestlers get buried in the midcard or just fired over trivial things, usually because WWE has decided that it needs to be PG-flavored... forgetting that it was the Attitude era that saved it from sharing WCW's fate.


Yeah, and Attitude was why the WWE got into the funk it was in from 2002 to 2006. And spare that whiny "He gets pushed while the better wrestlers get buried" bullshit. It's not *his* fault when guys fuck up their own push or they don't get over with the crowds. When they put him in the ring with them, Cena makes 'em look like a million bucks, so that's not on him. For fuck's sake, look at Miz. Dude realized that to get to where he wanted to be in the company, he had to bust his ass and shelve the ego(unlike Swagger and Sheamus) so he basically does the same exact thing that Cena did to earn the bookers' trust and ended up in the boss's good graces and it paid off.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 3, 2011)

Cena does'nt cause guys to get fired. Someone like Kennedy was fired due to complaints from other wrestlers,Jeff Hardy has drug issues etc. Actually what ego did Sheamus have SR? I've heard he's very hard working.


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## Violent by Design (Mar 3, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> No he kayfabewise beat HBK and later on even Orton who kayfabewise was a former champ with clean victories over guys like Benoit and HHH. He physically has no problem with the Great Khali who kayfabewise is big and physically stronger than a man of Hogan's age.
> 
> Kayfabewise it really won't work for anyone. Khali once beat up the Undertaker now just about anyone can beat him. Kayfabe battles don't work too well which was my point.




  It isn't suppose to be A>B>C logic if that is what you're implying. Orton has always been booked weaker than HHH, yes he has gotten good wins because he is a main eventer, but it still doesn't compare to what HHH has done. 

Also, people talk about wrestlers prime years when talking about a wrestler. Khali was only top tier for a very short time, so there is little reason to rate him over someone who was top tier for a long time.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 3, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Cena does'nt cause guys to get fired. Someone like Kennedy was fired due to complaints from other wrestlers,Jeff Hardy has drug issues etc. Actually what ego did Sheamus have SR? I've heard he's very hard working.


That's just the rumors that have been kicked around regarding how Sheamus has been booked since running away from the Nexus last year. Could be bullshit, could be true, who the hell knows?


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## Lucifeller (Mar 3, 2011)

Shadow Replication 1480 said:


> When you have as many good matches as Cena's had with as many different opponents, then you're a good wrestler.



The Brooklyn Brawler had good matches with damn near everyone. He's still a jobber with little skill beyond 'getting beat up a lot'. That logic DOES NOT WORK, because being booked with someone who can make you look good helps, and Cena was booked with people more skilled with him that carried him more times than I care to count.

But all of that will go right over a Cena mark's head. Why am I even bothering? If so many people WANT shit to infest WWE, then it may be for the best to leave said shit there. I lost respect for WWE when they hired Kenzo and Ultimo Dragon and then fired them after they GROSSLY misused them by mutilating Kenzo's moveset (he was explicitly forbidden from using 75% of his trademark moves because they were 'too risky', never mind that in two decades of career he never injured anyone with them because he IS NOT A SKILLESS MORON and knows how to use his own damn moves, which is more than I can say about that sack of shit Ezekiel Jackson who botches half his moves two thirds of the time - reminds me of Batista - or about Mark Henry who legit injured half the SD roster a few years back) and burying Ultimo in B-shows and out of the spotlight even though fans received him positively.

And the less said about Super Crazy and Psicosis's treatment the better.

I'm hoping that people will eventually get tired of all the bullshit WWE spews out and start deserting events en masse to show their displeasure, but most people who go watch PPVs lately are merchandise-addicted brainless sheep who wouldn't know a skilled wrestler from a badger, so I'm not holding my breath.

It gets even worse when you compare WWE to basically any Japanese association. American wrestling loses so badly against Japan's offer it's painful to watch. Hell, even gimmick wise... The Japanese actually managed to make a BLOWUP DOLL and a LITTLE GIRL into believable wrestlers - and while the blowup doll thing was in large part because the wrestlers booked against it were that damn good, Kaicho Ramu is legitimately skilled, which is amazing for a 12 year old girl. She'll do great things when she gets older.

And they actually made The Great Khali a believable wrestler - if you watched Khali's matches as Giant Singh in Japan, you wouldn't believe the difference, he was mobile and pulled off moves he'd only dream of in WWE. Then he gets here, suspiciously puts weight on (which most WWE wrestlers seem to be doing lately, anyone remember Fatt Hardy?) and becomes slow shit. I'm sure it can't be all his fault...


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Mar 3, 2011)

I stopped watching Wreslting after The Rock left, and even around that time it wasn't what it used to be. 

123 kid
razor ramon
yokozuna
bret hart
shawn micheal
lex luthor
Mankind
stone cold steve austin early years when he was in his prime

all of the above shit all over john cena.
Hell, Stephanie McMan would be enough....


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## Lucifeller (Mar 3, 2011)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> I stopped watching Wreslting after The Rock left, and even around that time it wasn't what it used to be.
> 
> 123 kid
> razor ramon
> ...



lolwut? Since when does Superman's enemy wrestle?


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 3, 2011)

Lex Luger not Luthor.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Mar 3, 2011)

damn luci's making cena out to be a less insane version of UM..or ahmed johnson or something


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 4, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> The Brooklyn Brawler had good matches with damn near everyone. He's still a jobber with little skill beyond 'getting beat up a lot'. That logic DOES NOT WORK, because being booked with someone who can make you look good helps, and Cena was booked with people more skilled with him that carried him more times than I care to count.
> 
> But all of that will go right over a Cena mark's head. Why am I even bothering? If so many people WANT shit to infest WWE, then it may be for the best to leave said shit there. I lost respect for WWE when they hired Kenzo and Ultimo Dragon and then fired them after they GROSSLY misused them by mutilating Kenzo's moveset (he was explicitly forbidden from using 75% of his trademark moves because they were 'too risky', never mind that in two decades of career he never injured anyone with them because he IS NOT A SKILLESS MORON and knows how to use his own damn moves, which is more than I can say about that sack of shit Ezekiel Jackson who botches half his moves two thirds of the time - reminds me of Batista - or about Mark Henry who legit injured half the SD roster a few years back) and burying Ultimo in B-shows and out of the spotlight even though fans received him positively.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I had to stop reading after the first sentence because it was *that* stupid. Brawler being asked to bump like a mad man for 5 minutes is comparable to Cena having to go out and wrestle competitive 10+ minute matches often with guys who aren't anywhere near as good as he is almost every week. That's just priceless.


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## Violent by Design (Mar 4, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> The Brooklyn Brawler had good matches with damn near everyone. He's still a jobber with little skill beyond 'getting beat up a lot'. That logic DOES NOT WORK, because being booked with someone who can make you look good helps, and Cena was booked with people more skilled with him that carried him more times than I care to count.


Brooklyn Brawler just takes bumps and gets squashed. Not sure how that means anything.

As for your last sentence, please count them. 



> But all of that will go right over a Cena mark's head. Why am I even bothering? If so many people WANT shit to infest WWE, then it may be for the best to leave said shit there. I lost respect for WWE when they hired Kenzo and Ultimo Dragon and then fired them after they GROSSLY misused them by mutilating Kenzo's moveset (he was explicitly forbidden from using 75% of his trademark moves because they were 'too risky', never mind that in two decades of career he never injured anyone with them because he IS NOT A SKILLESS MORON and knows how to use his own damn moves, which is more than I can say about that sack of shit Ezekiel Jackson who botches half his moves two thirds of the time - reminds me of Batista - or about Mark Henry who legit injured half the SD roster a few years back) and burying Ultimo in B-shows and out of the spotlight even though fans received him positively.
> 
> And the less said about Super Crazy and Psicosis's treatment the better.
> 
> ...



What the hell does this have to do with John Cena? 

I seriously doubt you even regularly watch Japanese wrestling. The fact that you would mention Yoshihiko and the daughter of the Undertaker as gimmicks that look "realistic", really just tells me that you prob just saw youtube clips of them. They are novelty acts from 3rd rate promotions, it's nothing no wrestling fan cares to see on a regular basis. I have no idea what that even has to do with the WWE. And do you really think the matches they had with the doll were decent? Anyone could have that fucking match with a doll, it's not like you have to read what it is thinking...you just fucking do a move to it and then sell for it. The only reason why people were cheering is because its funny.

As for the Khali comment, just stop. And the fat Hardy comment wow... yes people put on more weight when they're in the WWE. However, Khali can't move because he's a fucking middle aged 7 foot tall body builder who weak legs. Matt Hardy became fat because he got surgery on his stomach, and he stopped fucking working out. Matt Hardy has been in the WWE since he was 16 years old, you're really going to say the reason that he got fat was because he was in the WWE? That's great logic.

In fact, I really don't get what your rant is about. Since I keep skimming your post, I keep finding new gems of foolishness. Your argument is about how American wrestling sucks compared to Japanese wrestling, because Japanese wrestling is stiffer? Then you mention stupid gimmicks like Yoshikiko? What next, are you going to mention when Takada came out as a cyborg in Love and Hustle? It's not like American promotions do not have stupid ass comedy wrestling, it's called Chikara.

I just noticed you mention Ultimo Dragon in Smackdown. Are you kidding me? How can you be a fan of Ultimo Dragon and think his work in the WWE was any good. It wasn't the WWE's fault, Ultimo was not clicking as well as he used too. Benoit, Mysterio and Guerrero were fine, Ultimo's injuries caught up to him and he hasn't been a great wrestlers since the 90s.

I mean really, you just discovered the WWE was cartoony? It's only been like this since the late 70s and early 80s. When on earth have they ever tried to sell themselves as a product that was realistic?


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## Lucifeller (Mar 4, 2011)

It shows you skim over my posts. Let me quote the part about Yoshihiko.



> Hell, *even gimmick wise*... The Japanese actually managed to make a BLOWUP DOLL and a LITTLE GIRL into believable wrestlers



I was referring specifically to gimmicks at that point.

Compare that to WWE's stupidest gimmick... THE GOBBLEDYGOOKER. Or the Boogeyman and his worm eating. Or for that matter, the involuntary failure of WCW's Shockmaster. Or when ROBOCOP came out to help Sting, also in WCW.

It's a really sad day when a stupid gimmick like Yoshihiko and a little girl like Kaicho Ramu both look more believable and legitimately funny than what WWE comes up with. And I'm not even mentioning the way Paul Burchill was buried with the Pirate Paul gimmick. Way to waste a perfectly good athlete here, WWE.

Also, the point about Great Khali is perfectly legitimate. There's a massive difference between Singh in Japan, where he actually was mobile and could pull off impressive moves, and Singh in WWE, where he moves slow as shit and is just terrible when wrestling. And he came to WWE not soon after his contract in japan expired, so such a degradation in his skills can't possibly be all his fault.

As for the complaint I made about movesets being brutalized, in the last few years WWE has been shitting itself over high-risk moves. While it's understandable that high risk moves are frowned upon, they are the bread and butter of some wrestlers, cruiserweights in particular, and on top of that NOBODY WANTS TO HURT THE OTHER GUY in the ring - nobody sane, anyway - so tehy train like hell to make sure they don't hurt anyone. Accidents still happen, but that's true even of low-risk moves.

Banning a bunch of moves because they are high risk misses the point, which is that BECAUSE they are high risk, decent wrestlers train their hardest to AVOID causing injury with them. If the user is actually competent, they won't cause injury.

Which brings me to the point... if accidents with high risk moves were on the rise, maybe, just maybe, WWE should have realized that the fault wasn't in the moves, but in THE GUYS DOING THEM. If someone consistently botches a powerbomb (hi, Batista!) and puts someone on the shelf, the fault isn't with the powerbomb, but with the guy doing it. Same with a piledriver.

n short: if Vince wasn't so obsessed with hiring a bunch of guys that look impressive but have shit for skill and thus botch moves all the time (again, hi Batista!), and actually looked at skill before size and muscles, maybe the rate of accidents would drop.

There'll still be unfortunate accidents like Owen breaking Austin's neck, where a wrestler messes up a spot they normally execute flawlessly, but from that point of view any move more complex than a Flair Chop can cause grievous injury, even a snapmare. But if you make sure your wrestlers are skilled and competent, at least there won't be 'accidents' like Batista insisting on a finisher he botches with frightening regularity, Mark Henry hospitalizing half the roster because he just plain can't wrestle or Brock getting frustrated and dropping Holly on his neck just because he was sandbagging him. Seriously, man, I understand sandbagging is uncool, but that's no justification for nearly killing someone in a fit of frustration!

EDIT: Also, my posts are sorta disjointed because I keep slipping into stream-of-consciousness writing. I'm a bit under the weather due to having just recovered from a nasty case of swine flu, and when I'm in this state I tend to have trouble with making posts that aren't fragmented. Just a heads up.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 4, 2011)

Okay that's fine but please try to stay on topic, this was about John Cena not how american wrestling sucks or whatever.


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## Danshi (Jul 15, 2012)

John Cena doesn't have the Attitude like The Rock or Stone Cold or any attitude era superstars. Almost all the men that watched WWF the Attitude Era hates John Cena.
John Cena isn't realistic at all. 
He's more like Barney the Purple Dinosaur.


Don't said cause his one of his finisher moves is called "Attitude Adjustment."
If any body who really need a attitude adjustment is John Cena. 

The only that I'm glad that John Cena doesn't say this thing:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsKO_r76kfQ[/YOUTUBE]

But I'd begin to think that John Cena was Barney the Purple Dinosaur.


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## Nazirul Takashi (Jul 16, 2012)

Do you have to necro this thread?

Oh well, at least you're not a 10 year old Cena fan.


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## Ulti (Jul 16, 2012)

Cena for all except 4 IMO

Ultimate Warrior might be more interesting though, though Cena can be interestign when he wants to be, see build up to MITB last year


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## I3igAl (Jul 16, 2012)

Yeah Cena should take all but the fight. If we are going by 2007 "I never get KOed and tank every move there is"-Cena even this is debatable.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jul 16, 2012)

wow this is an oldie


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## Urouge (Jul 16, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Cena for all except 4 IMO
> 
> Ultimate Warrior might be more interesting though, though Cena can be interestign when he wants to be, see build up to MITB last year



just saw the UW gaelek posted in this thread. the guy is hilarious. no one could understand what he was saying. he was insane. He's more interesting than Cena easily


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