# Itachi vs. Naruto & Sasuke



## Nikushimi (Jun 15, 2013)

*Location:* Chuunin Exams Finals
*Distance:* 5m
*Knowledge:* Full/manga (Doesn't matter.)
*Mindset:* In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-Itachi is alive with good health and eyesight (think Edo Tensei minus infinite chakra).
-All combatants are restricted to base form (Sharingan is still allowed).
-All Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and weapons are restricted; the fight is Taijutsu-only.


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## Rocky (Jun 15, 2013)

Itachi isn't that much better than Sasuke alone. Add Naruto, and the two of them should be able to beat him down.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Itachi isn't that much better than Sasuke alone. Add Naruto, and the two of them should be able to beat him down.



4.5 compared to 3.5 Taijutsu prowess is quite a lot better, actually.


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## tanman (Jun 15, 2013)

Ninjutsu-less base Naruto is probably equivalent in stats to your standard jonin. So he would get fodderized.
I would say Sasuke relies far more on weapons (and with them he's evenly matched by Itachi).

I would give Itachi the win because of that, but it's very hard to keep someone down without pinning them in taijutsu fight. This makes it especially difficult to take on two opponents simultaneously, even if one is very weak. Itachi would need to land a knockout punch, which I think would be impossible against someone as persistent as Naruto. Pinning Naruto, however, would be a breeze. I'm guessing Itachi does just that and then gets hit by Sasuke. That continues until Itachi's had too much.


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## Ashi (Jun 15, 2013)

Why do you keep putting itachi in stomp threads?


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## Nikushimi (Jun 15, 2013)

TensaZangetsu10 said:


> Why do you keep putting itachi in stomp threads?



I can add Sakura to the other team if you think they're that outclassed.


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## Rocky (Jun 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> 4.5 compared to 3.5 Taijutsu prowess is quite a lot better, actually.




Not superior enough to the point that adding another solid Taijutsu user wouldn't change the outcome.

Besides, there's a fair chance Sasuke's gotten physically better in general since the release of the 3rd Databook. There's been hundreds of chapters.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Not superior enough to the point that adding another solid Taijutsu user wouldn't change the outcome.
> 
> Besides, there's a fair chance Sasuke's gotten physically better in general since the release of the 3rd Databook. There's been hundreds of chapters.



True enough.

However, Sasuke hasn't really concentrated on his Taijutsu, has he? One of the biggest fan complaints about his character since he obtained MS has been his almost-exclusive reliance on it.

Also,



Let me remind you that Itachi can step with KCM Naruto and Killer B in Taijutsu. Even if they forced him back and he had no hope of beating them like that, it still shows that he can hang with guys who outstrip either of these two by a wide margin.


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## Ashi (Jun 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I can add Sakura to the other team if you think they're that outclassed.



You're a funny girl... anyway of its base then itachi high diff(maybe) but if Naruto can go sm or ntcm then Naruto solos...


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## Krippy (Jun 15, 2013)

I don't think comparing databook stats of a sick Itachi, Pre-Hebi Sauce, and a Pre-Fuuton Naruto is very fair. They should all be a dead match for one another in pure hand to hand combat since weapons are restricted. Itachi has a slight edge on Sasuke in that regard and a large one over Naruto in that area.

I'm leaning toward the kids here.


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## Rocky (Jun 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> True enough.
> 
> However, Sasuke hasn't really concentrated on his Taijutsu, has he? One of the biggest complaints about his character since he obtained MS has been his almost-exclusive reliance on it.




Well, he's still gone hand to hand with multiple opponents since the book's release. The Raikage, Danzou, _Bee_...i don't think he'll be left at 3.5, but again, this is just speculation. 



> Also,
> 
> 
> 
> Let me remind you that Itachi can step with KCM Naruto and Killer B in Taijutsu. Even if they forced him back and he had no hope of beating them like that, it still shows that he can hang with guys who outstrip either of these two by a wide margin.




Itachi didn't fight both at the same time. He tied with Naruto, and fled as soon as Bee joined the fray. In his actual skirmish against Bee's 8-sword dance, he was playing some major defense.

It isn't like this will be a walk in the park for team 7. Hitting Itachi at first is going to be a pain, I'll admit, but he is going to tire out like any guy. A big problem is Naruto resilience and stamina. Naruto's Uzumaki body is perfect for this kind of thing. Even if he takes a beating, he'll just keep getting back up unless he's literally immobilized. Itachi will have trouble landing any kind of vital punch while feeling the preassue from two guys at once, especially when one is Sharingan Sasuke. Without his weapon, Itachi lacks quick and efficient means of disabling his opponents, and that will be his downfall.


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## ueharakk (Jun 15, 2013)

I don't even think a significant taijutsu gap between Itachi and Sasuke exists.

Add the guy who can spar with deva path after coming out of SM, and team one takes this.


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## Joakim3 (Jun 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I don't even think a significant taijutsu gap between Itachi and Sasuke exists.
> 
> Add the guy who can spar with deva path after coming out of SM, and team one takes this.



Took the words right out my mouth 

Itachi gets steamrolled, Sasuke isn't that far behind his brother to begin with, even if he was, Naruto has improved leaps and bounds to the point he could go toe to toe with Tendo in base, the same path that tagged Sharingan Kakashi in 2 moves


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## Nikushimi (Jun 15, 2013)

TensaZangetsu10 said:


> You're a funny girl...






This just made my day. Thank you.



Rocky said:


> Well, he's still gone hand to hand with multiple opponents since the book's release. The Raikage, Danzou, _Bee_...i don't think he'll be left at 3.5, but again, this is just speculation.



Possibly, but a full tier is pretty unlikely.



> Itachi didn't fight both at the same time. He tied with Naruto, and fled as soon as Bee joined the fray. In his actual skirmish against Bee's 8-sword dance, he was playing some major defense.



Considering he was totally unarmed and B wasn't...I think he did pretty well.



> It isn't like this will be a walk in the park for team 7. Hitting Itachi at first is going to be a pain, I'll admit, but he is going to tire out like any guy. A big problem is Naruto resilience and stamina. Naruto's Uzumaki body is perfect for this kind of thing. Even if he takes a beating, he'll just keep getting back up unless he's literally immobilized. Itachi will have trouble landing any kind of vital punch while feeling the preassue from two guys at once, especially when one is Sharingan Sasuke. Without his weapon, Itachi lacks quick and efficient means of disabling his opponents, and that will be his downfall.



Fair enough.



ueharakk said:


> I don't even think a significant taijutsu gap between Itachi and Sasuke exists.
> 
> Add the guy who can spar with deva path after coming out of SM, and team one takes this.





Joakim3 said:


> Took the words right out my mouth
> 
> Itachi gets steamrolled, Sasuke isn't that far behind his brother to begin with, even if he was, Naruto has improved leaps and bounds to the point he could go toe to toe with Tendo in base, the same path that tagged Sharingan Kakashi in 2 moves



To both of you: Naruto wasn't on Tendou's level at all. Tendou literally caught up to him from hundreds of meters away with a single bound when he was running the other direction. Naruto lasted a few seconds purely on defense and would've taken a big black rod to the face () if Sennin Moodo hadn't kicked in at the last second.

Incidentally, I would compare Tendou's physical prowess to Itachi's, or thereabout.


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## Turrin (Jun 15, 2013)

I tend to think that Naruto and Sasuke win here, simply due to Stamina. It's going to take a-lot of blows for Itachi to take ether of them down with when only using his fists and while i'm sure he'll get in more than Naruto & Sasuke, eventually there is going to come a point where Itachi is going to be exhausted, but dam Naruto will just keep WOFing himself up and I can see Itachi going F this shit and giving up or getting his ass kicked because he's run out of stamina to dodge Naruto's strikes.


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## Immortal (Jun 15, 2013)

So basically everyone is in Base and its Taijutsu only? 

Then I think you're crazy to say Itachi doesn't take it. Itachi was basically in base holding his own in cqc against Kirabi and KCM Naruto, so I don't see how Sasuke and Naruto together could fair any better. Itachi went through the majority of the manga never being touched, and since Naruto is fairly featless in taijutsu we can assume that the result would be very similar to the taijutsu exchange between Hebi Sauce and Itachi. 

Add on top of that that I am of the opinion that Hebi Sasuke was actually faster than Taka and that according to your OP shunsin is restricted and I think Itachi takes this 9 outta 10 times.


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## Immortal (Jun 15, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I tend to think that Naruto and Sasuke win here, simply due to Stamina. It's going to take a-lot of blows for Itachi to take ether of them down with when only using his fists and while i'm sure he'll get in more than Naruto & Sasuke, eventually there is going to come a point where Itachi is going to be exhausted, but dam Naruto will just keep WOFing himself up and I can see Itachi going F this shit and giving up or getting his ass kicked because he's run out of stamina to dodge Naruto's strikes.



This is an excellent point my friend, but the stamina of Itachi will deplete much slower than that of Narutos. Naruto would clearly be the one on the offensive while Itachi will spend most of this fight simply defending himself from attacks, much like he did when fighting KCM Naruto and Killer Bee. Itachi has the better taijutsu feats imo.


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## Rocky (Jun 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Possibly, but a full tier is pretty unlikely.




Sasuke doesn't need to be Itachi's equal. Naruto is here.





> Considering he was totally unarmed and B wasn't...I think he did pretty well.




Itachi pulled out a Kunai. He obviously didn't clash his bare fists against Bee's blades. Metal cuts skin.

If you're going with the Anime's rendition, then Itachi was just running the entire time, which is what I said.


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## Turrin (Jun 15, 2013)

Immortal said:


> This is an excellent point my friend, but the stamina of Itachi will deplete much slower than that of Narutos. Naruto would clearly be the one on the offensive while Itachi will spend most of this fight simply defending himself from attacks, much like he did when fighting KCM Naruto and Killer Bee. Itachi has the better taijutsu feats imo.



Oh I agree with you that Naruto's will deplete faster, but how much faster is the issue. Base Naruto even back in the wind arc had x4 Kakashi's chakra, which in essence is x5 Itachi's chakra level (Kakashi's 3 vs Itachi's 2.5), now i think it's safe to say base Naruto has even more chakra than that considering his ability to form Chou Oddoma Rasengan in base. So were talking at least x6 Itachi's chakra, so Naruto's chakra would have to deplete 6 times faster than Itachi's, and that's with Sasuke's help. Something I just don't see happening, especially since I honestly feel like Naruto could pull even more stamina out with WOF, after all we saw him do exactly that against Gaara during the Chuunin exams. I mean I feel Itachi's pain the poor dude is basically up against some crazy zombie here, but that's the reality of the situation.


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## ueharakk (Jun 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> To both of you: Naruto wasn't on Tendou's level at all. Tendou literally caught up to him from hundreds of meters away with a single bound when he was running the other direction. Naruto lasted a few seconds purely on defense and would've taken a big black rod to the face () if Sennin Moodo hadn't kicked in at the last second.


Naruto just exited sage mode, and thus was in a weaker state.  Tendou is definitely the physically better of the two, however, Naruto being able to spar with him suggests that accounting for physical strength, speed and taijutsu, he was at least somewhere near tendou's level.

As intimidating as the big black rod was, it doesn't really matter since weapons are restricted in this match, it's not a known fact that naruto would have gotten shanked, and at worse it would put naruto at kakashi's level of taijutsu.



Nikushimi said:


> Incidentally, I would compare Tendou's physical prowess to Itachi's, or thereabout.


Then Sage mode naruto manhandles itachi without needing ghost punches.... I'm definitely fine with that.


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## Trojan (Jun 15, 2013)

Naruto alone will win. 
Itachi wont beat Naruto by Tai-jutsu alone. Naruto can fight him the entire day
even IF Itachi is better than him in Tai-jutsu sooner or later he will lose his chakra MUCH 
faster/ sooner than Naruto. Thus, he will lose.


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## Immortal (Jun 15, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Oh I agree with you that Naruto's will deplete faster, but how much faster is the issue. Base Naruto even back in the wind arc had x4 Kakashi's chakra, which in essence is x5 Itachi's chakra level (Kakashi's 3 vs Itachi's 2.5), now i think it's safe to say base Naruto has even more chakra than that considering his ability to form Chou Oddoma Rasengan in base. So were talking at least x6 Itachi's chakra, so Naruto's chakra would have to deplete 6 times faster than Itachi's, and that's with Sasuke's help. Something I just don't see happening, especially since I honestly feel like Naruto could pull even more stamina out with WOF, after all we saw him do exactly that against Gaara during the Chuunin exams. I mean I feel Itachi's pain the poor dude is basically up against some crazy zombie here, but that's the reality of the situation.



Isn't that 2.5 based off of sick Itachi? I've always hated using databook stats in discussions anyways haha.

But I guess you're right, I could see Itachi losing because of stamina sometimes. I still think that it would lean towards Itachi more often than not but without any way to quickly kill Naruto I guess he could just keep getting up until Itachi passes himself out.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 15, 2013)

Naruto and Sasuke win. 

Any shinobi can have a Taijutsu spar with a Naruto who wants info from them. Thus that's not such a significant factor. As we saw, Itachi's Taijutus prowess is probably inferior to Kakashi, someone whose forced Itachi to use Ninjutsu. 

Sasuke only fell to Itachi when he used his sword. So hand to hand, it may actually be different. Sasuke's Taijutsu feats shouldn't be too bad, they should be average. Coupled with Naruto, whose been able to keep up _with Pain_ in Taijutsu, whose likely picked up a thing or two with his Frog-Kata training... It is honestly hard to say Itachi wins so readily. 

When Naruto, in a transformation, was serious with Taijutsu, he did this to a high tier; he did this to several shinobi. KCM is more capable than SM, in terms of strength and speed; the difference between the instances I posted and the Itachi incident? Naruto wasn't aiming to get info. 

Hence the KCM skirmish isn't a powerful tool to use in favour of Itachi. It is, however, a powerful took to use in favour of Naruto. 

I also doubt Itachi has the stamina to keep up. Zetsu outlined everything wrong with Itachi in the fight, stamina and chakra capacity were not among the things that were "off".

*In short:* Itachi isn't beating Naruto and Sasuke together.


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## joshhookway (Jun 15, 2013)

So many same character vs threads made by one person.


Naruto and Sasuke gang up and kill Itachi. Sasuke matches Itachi. Add Naruto and Itachi loses.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Itachi pulled out a Kunai. He obviously didn't clash his bare fists against Bee's blades. Metal cuts skin.
> 
> If you're going with the Anime's rendition, then Itachi was just running the entire time, which is what I said.



The manga shows points of contact, although that could be interpreted as Itachi deflecting B's arms without touching the blades.



ueharakk said:


> Naruto just exited sage mode, and thus was in a weaker state.  Tendou is definitely the physically better of the two, however, Naruto being able to spar with him suggests that accounting for physical strength, speed and taijutsu, he was at least somewhere near tendou's level.
> 
> As intimidating as the big black rod was, it doesn't really matter since weapons are restricted in this match, it's not a known fact that naruto would have gotten shanked, and at worse it would put naruto at kakashi's level of taijutsu.



There's no way Tendou would be able to catch up to Kakashi so easily from such a distance, so no. Kakashi was at least stabbed when he knelt down to cast a Doton and was sort of vulnerable, but Naruto just plain couldn't defend himself.



> Then Sage mode naruto manhandles itachi without needing ghost punches.... I'm definitely fine with that.



Naruto landed one kick that knocked Tendou away. And Tendou got back up. That's not really "manhandling."



TorJaN said:


> Naruto alone will win.
> Itachi wont beat Naruto by Tai-jutsu alone. Naruto can fight him the entire day
> even IF Itachi is better than him in Tai-jutsu sooner or later he will lose his chakra MUCH
> faster/ sooner than Naruto. Thus, he will lose.



Stamina isn't going to heal Naruto's injuries.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto and Sasuke win.
> 
> Any shinobi can have a Taijutsu spar with a Naruto who wants info from them. Thus that's not such a significant factor.



If Naruto had simply wanted info, he wouldn't have taken numerous swings at Itachi.



> As we saw, Itachi's Taijutus prowess is probably inferior to Kakashi, someone whose forced Itachi to use Ninjutsu.



Kakashi never forced Itachi to do anything. It was all Kakashi could do to pin him with a Kage Bunshin long enough for Naruto to hit him with Oodama Rasengan, and that was the 30% Shouten, so Kakashi definitely isn't better at Taijutsu than he is.



> Sasuke only fell to Itachi when he used his sword. So hand to hand, it may actually be different.



Generally, being unarmed is a disadvantage, you know.



> Sasuke's Taijutsu feats shouldn't be too bad, they should be average.



Going up against Itachi with "average" Taijutsu is suicide.

Though I wouldn't go as far as to reduce Sasuke's Taijutsu to "average"; statistically, Sasuke was above-average as far back as the 3rd databook, though not high tier like Itachi.



> When Naruto, in a transformation, was serious with Taijutsu, he did this to a high tier; he did this to several shinobi. KCM is more capable than SM, in terms of strength and speed; the difference between the instances I posted and the Itachi incident? Naruto wasn't aiming to get info.



Or Itachi is just better than those other guys.



> Hence the KCM skirmish isn't a powerful tool to use in favour of Itachi. It is, however, a powerful took to use in favour of Naruto.



That's a completely backwards interpretation of the evidence.

We see Itachi and Naruto fighting evenly.

The supposition that Naruto "wanted info" and thus held back is without proof and therefore without warrant.



> I also doubt Itachi has the stamina to keep up. Zetsu outlined everything wrong with Itachi in the fight, stamina and chakra capacity were not among the things that were "off".



2.5 stamina is plenty when the fight is purely Taijutsu. 2.5 is actually...dare I say..."average."


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## IchLiebe (Jun 15, 2013)

Naruto could fight for a god damn year non stop if he's restricted to no ninjutsu and base.


And Naruto was casual when he was talking to Itachi.


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## Rocky (Jun 16, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The manga shows points of contact, although that could be interpreted as Itachi deflecting B's arms without touching the blades.




Considering Bee's indefinitely more skilled than Itachi and had *8 fucking swords*, I'm going to say that Itachi pulled a weapon. He's not _that_ good. Sauce barley kept up with a blade, and Bee's dance overrides precognition, so there's around a 0% chance Itachi blocked Bee with his bare hands.


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## ueharakk (Jun 16, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> There's no way Tendou would be able to catch up to Kakashi so easily from such a distance, so no.


Naruto just came out of sage mode, and "taijutsu" encompasses more than simply being able to move from point A to point B faster.



Nikushimi said:


> Kakashi was at least stabbed when he knelt down to cast a Doton and was sort of vulnerable, but Naruto just plain couldn't defend himself.


That's under the assumption that tendou would have shanked naruto.  Naruto just exiting sage mode gives him just as much of a handicap as Kakashi.



Nikushimi said:


> Naruto landed one kick that knocked Tendou away. And Tendou got back up. That's not really "manhandling."


That's an interesting way of remembering how it went down.  From what I remember, Tendou barely was able to put up a guard against Naruto's kick, was sent flying away, and after blocking the kick, he couldn't even stand up.

I also seem to recall tendou much closer to the real nagato engaging an unarmed Naruto with a chakra rod again, except this time *he got fodderized.*

Seems like manhandling to me.



Nikushimi said:


> That's a completely backwards interpretation of the evidence.
> 
> We see Itachi and Naruto fighting evenly.
> 
> The supposition that Naruto "wanted info" and thus held back is without proof and therefore without warrant.



The fact that Naruto didn't use any chakra arms, only reacted to itachi's attacks and was talking while itachi himself couldn't control himself, and didn't chase itachi is all evidence that he was holding back and only wanted to talk.


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## IchLiebe (Jun 16, 2013)

Did yall see Naruto use Rasengan and mass shadow clones against Itachi?

Alright then discussion over....Naruto wasn't trying.  Simple huh


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (Jun 16, 2013)

It's unfortunate that Naruto Base is high jounin , low-Kage and Sasuke base with Sharingan is mid-Kage lv.

Itachi is not gonna beat them, when he's more skilled and experienced than Sasuke and Naruto in tajitsu. Naruto is definitely the strongest person on the battle field and has a pretty high endurance. Sasuke is faster on tajitsu offense than Itachi, I would say Itachi is just better at defending and evading.

The odds are against Itachi here. The reason why he would take the sannins and not the Team 7 duo is because one is an elder, the pails in tajitsu skill and they are fighting a capable Sharingan users.

As opposed to 2 youthful ninja where 1 is just as skilled with the base Sharingan and has similar tajitsu skill and the other is only 1up'd because of the Sharingan telegraphing all of his moves.


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## Rain (Jun 16, 2013)

KCM Naruto is _*much*_ stronger in taijutsu than Sasuke and Naruto combined.

Itachi fought him evenly.

Naruto is freaking chuunin level without ninjutsu (SM and KCM are there to enhance his physical stats), and Sasuke can't do much without his Chidori Katana.

Itachi wins with low difficulty.


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## Stermor (Jun 16, 2013)

KenpachiDiachoxx said:


> It's unfortunate that Naruto Base is high jounin , low-Kage



this is bull.. kakashi who tendou took out pretty easily wasn't even a low kage at that point.. 
and naruto did better then him.. naruto is not low kage even in base form anymore.. naruto even in base is pretty fast..

itachi's feats against kcm naruto/bee means he has a pretty decent gap in physhical abilty's.. he also has a pretty decent skill gap between sasuke and naruto(debatable how large).. 

sasuke lasted 1 punch against the raikage.. and naruto could hang with deva for a bit.. while itachi could deal with not serious kcm naruto and wasn't overwhelmed by bee... remember bee literly crapped on sasuke's taijutsu.. 

anyway wether that is enough to beat sasuke and naruto.. i'm not sure.. i'm off the opinion that it likely is going to cost itachi to much stamina to take out both..  but that he would be throwing them arround for as long as he can keep that up... 

give itachi a kunai and he will win this though(because it is much easier to kill then)..


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## trance (Jun 16, 2013)

The brats high difficulty. What is it with you and Itachi's taijutsu?


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jun 16, 2013)

Don't underrate Itachi's taijutsu here, he was going up against RM Naruto without too much difficulty


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## Bonly (Jun 16, 2013)

Basically what most others have said. Sasuke and Naruto Taijutsu skills are good enough to put up a fight for a while and tire out Itachi enough to where they can gain the advantage.


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (Jun 16, 2013)

Stermor said:


> this is bull.. kakashi who tendou took out pretty easily wasn't even a low kage at that point..
> and naruto did better then him.. naruto is not low kage even in base form anymore.. naruto even in base is pretty fast..
> 
> itachi's feats against kcm naruto/bee means he has a pretty decent gap in physhical abilty's.. he also has a pretty decent skill gap between sasuke and naruto(debatable how large)..
> ...



Naruto with Kage Bushin, Bushin, Rasengan variants, and  Summons is definetly Low-Kage level.
Itachi can't fight both of them and win. You are extremely underestimating current Sasuke and Naruto.


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## Kanki (Jun 16, 2013)

It's two on one, so the duo would win. Itachi is the more skillfull taijutsu fighter, there's two of them here. It'll be a game of cat and mouse as Itachi is hard to nail, but eventually the duo will land a strike. 

Wonder how long it took for someone to mention the Itachi vs Sasuke fight, even though it was a genjutsu? 



PrazzyP said:


> Don't underrate Itachi's taijutsu here, he was going up against RM Naruto without too much difficulty



It may have been RM Naruto, but there's no evidence he was using his full speed or even close to it. In fact from memory, he just wanted to talk whilst Itachi was technically going all out for the kill at that point.


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## betterthanu33 (Jun 16, 2013)

This is sad. Itachi dispatches naruto fairly quicklybecause naruto charges in. Sasuke proceeds to stop naruto andafter itachi snaps narutos neck he toys around with sasuke having no restrictions then decides your weak as shit and mortal komabt style finishes him.

Pretty same scenario if theycome at same time
Itachi wont need alot of stamina because he is a bosssss and has superior taijutsu. Fight is only gonna last id say at the most 5minutes


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 16, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> If Naruto had simply wanted info, he wouldn't have taken numerous swings at Itachi.



So just ask for info whilst an autopilot Edo Tensei hits him? It wasn't possible to just sit down and ask for info.



> Kakashi never forced Itachi to do anything. It was all Kakashi could do to pin him with a Kage Bunshin long enough for Naruto to hit him with Oodama Rasengan, and that was the 30% Shouten, so Kakashi definitely isn't better at Taijutsu than he is.



Kakashi forced Itachi to do numerous things during their battles. In their initial encounter, it was Kakashi who forced Itachi to use the MS.
Against Shouten Itachi (Taijutsu skill wasn't 30%, mind you- just chakra capacity) it was Kakashi who ended up forcing Itachi to switch from Taijutsu to Ninjutsu. 

Shouten only defends feats against chakra capacity, and jutsu dependent on jutsu using 31%+ of chakra capacity. Taijutsu skill and application isn't something you can call "Shouten" on. So if Itachi couldn't outclass Kakashi Hatake in Taijutsu then, he isn't outclassing him now. Of course, Kakashi level Taijutsu has implications for this fight.



> Generally, being unarmed is a disadvantage, you know.



Without weapons, as per your conditions, Sasuke's Taijutsu application would rapidly change. We know using Kenjutsu against Itachi's application of Taijutsu and ninja tools, Sasuke fails. Taijutsu vs Taijutus; we've seen no reason to believe Itachi is better. In fact Naruto could simply spar with Itachi whilst taking- it is doubtful that Naruto has Taijutsu skill that completely blows Sasuke away.


> Going up against Itachi with "average" Taijutsu is suicide.
> 
> Though I wouldn't go as far as to reduce Sasuke's Taijutsu to "average"; statistically, Sasuke was above-average as far back as the 3rd databook, though not high tier like Itachi.



Not according to Kakashi, who forced Itachi to use Ninjutsu, while using "average Taijutsu".

Average Taijutsu can be relative to a tier. Sasuke is a top tier shinobi, so he should have Taijutsu which is considered average for top tiers. Unless Itachi had some Might Gai level Taijutsu, its a'ight to go against Itachi with "average Taijutsu". 

If you're going to hinge on the databook statistics, then factor in the criteria in your assessments. For instance, you can score highly on a statistic for Ninjutsu/Genjutsu/Taijutsu for simply having knowledge on the art, alongside with skill. That's why Jiraiya has a 3 in Genjutsu; he knows a lot but has crappy skill. 



> Or Itachi is just better than those other guys.



Based on? I doubt Itachi's skill is going to be miles above someone who was considered to be the strongest man in Akatsuki; if he is even above someone who integrates Taijutsu in his fighting as much as possible. Further, I also doubt Itachi's skill will minimise the fact that a serious Naruto can take a number of foes, in Taijutsu, using a lesser form than KCM.

Of course, you cannot exclude one key factor from those instances and the instance with Itachi: Naruto wasn't seeking information.



> That's a completely backwards interpretation of the evidence.
> 
> We see Itachi and Naruto fighting evenly.
> 
> The supposition that Naruto "wanted info" and thus held back is without proof and therefore without warrant.



You just cite action. I am citing the action alongside what the text said. The action alone supports your point. The action alongside the text supports mine. Hence my interpretation of the evidence can be considered a lot stronger than yours. 
One main reason for this is that you say the supposition in question is "without warrant", whilst the text in the fight shows Naruto explicitly asking Itachi shiz. This was after Naruto said he wanted to ask Itachi some things before Itachi was commanded to attack.



> 2.5 stamina is plenty when the fight is purely Taijutsu. 2.5 is actually...dare I say..."average."



2.5 is the common stamina rating for the women and children of this manga; check it out yourself. Itachi has below average stamina for a male (Chunin level+), in this manga. 

He's competing with two shinobi who can outlast him, and who aren't pushovers. His low stamina relative to Naruto and Sasuke's isn't going to be such a great asset.


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## blk (Jun 16, 2013)

Regarding Sasuke, i'll just leave those links here [1 ; 2 ; 3 ; 4 ; 5].

Does base Naruto even have CQC feats? I honestly don't remember anything except from occasional and single panels.
Don't really see how he is supposed to compete with Itachi.

So, we have a Sasuke who was beated (rather easily and in a, arguably, strongest form than the current) in CQC by a weakened version of his brother that hadn't killing intent, and an almost featless base Naruto going against.... an healthy and totally serious Itachi, who competed without problems against KCM Naruto, Bee and Sage Kabuto (though, with some weapon in some of those cases).

How exactly is Itachi *not* winning this match with mid/high difficulty?


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## Krippy (Jun 16, 2013)

^ "Without problems" against Kirabi? I guess you forgot the part where he fled from his seven swords after one panel.


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## ueharakk (Jun 17, 2013)

blk said:


> Does base Naruto even have CQC feats? I honestly don't remember anything except from occasional and single panels.
> Don't really see how he is supposed to compete with Itachi.


he traded blows with deva path for a couple of pages right after coming out of sage mode.



blk said:


> So, we have a Sasuke who was beated (rather easily and in a, arguably, strongest form than the current) in CQC by a weakened version of his brother that hadn't killing intent, and an almost featless base Naruto going against.... an healthy and totally serious Itachi, who competed without problems against KCM Naruto, Bee and Sage Kabuto (though, with some weapon in some of those cases).
> 
> How exactly is Itachi *not* winning this match with mid/high difficulty?


He doesn't win this match because part2 Sasuke was never beaten by any form of itachi in CQC, base Naruto does have feats against a kakashi level taijutsu user, and Itachi fought a KCM Naruto who only wanted to talk.


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## blk (Jun 17, 2013)

Krippy said:


> ^ "Without problems" against Kirabi? I guess you forgot the part where he fled from his seven swords after one panel.



Well, Itachi did traded blows with Bee for a while  [1], with a kunai or maybe even bare hands.
The fact that he fled away doesn't tell much, it could have been either because he was being overwhelmed or simply because he had to use Amaterasu.

Anyway, he had better performance than Sasuke.




ueharakk said:


> he traded blows with deva path for a couple of pages right after coming out of sage mode.
> 
> He doesn't win this match because part2 Sasuke was never beaten by any form of itachi in CQC, base Naruto does have feats against a kakashi level taijutsu user, and Itachi fought a KCM Naruto who only wanted to talk.



Yes, now i remember about that exchange. However, by feats Deva isn't at the same level of Itachi, so that's still not enough.
Against Kakashi he barely tried to kick him, that's certainly not enough for establish any equality.

Part 2 Sasuke was beated by Bee, while Itachi wasn't. Further, Hebi Sasuke had Orochimaru and the cursed seal inside him, things that improved his physical conditions, so one could argue that the current one is even weaker than the past one in taijutsu.

That KCM Naruto wanted only to talk is a poor excuse; Itachi was an immortal zombie, the former had all the of the time of the world for talk to him and fatal hits wouldn't have changed anything (and Naruto did also stated that he wouldn't hold back against the edos or the zetsu).
None of them was holding back in taijutsu during that exchange.


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## Joakim3 (Jun 17, 2013)

blk said:


> Well, Itachi did traded blows with Bee for a while  [1], with a kunai or maybe even bare hands.



Killer B was forcing him back, that shows superiority in the former which should be logical based on how Sasuke performed against said person

With his bare hands? Sasuke with a sword was being tagged left & right, Itachi barehanded would have been a pile of meat slices on the ground against Killer B



blk said:


> The fact that he fled away doesn't tell much, it could have been either because he was being overwhelmed or simply because he had to use Amaterasu.
> 
> Anyway, he had better performance than Sasuke.



He simply retreated due to being overwhelmed, whether to charge Ame or not.

One would think that if Itachi could have he would have lit B ablaze mid taijutsu class where there is zero margin for reaction on the latters part

Again he had a better performance, because he actively fled, something IC Sasuke didn't do, thus leading to his demise



blk said:


> Yes, now i remember about that exchange. However, by feats Deva isn't at the same level of Itachi, so that's still not enough.
> Against Kakashi he barely tried to kick him, that's certainly not enough for establish any equality.



Feat wise Nagato is very much on the same level as Itachi (he coordinates the boides movements), Tendo tagged Kakashi in 2 moves with Nagato's concentration/chakra split 6+ ways

By feats Naruto, Itachi & Nagato are all better than Kakashi in QcQ



blk said:


> Part 2 Sasuke was beated by Bee, while Itachi wasn't. Further, Hebi Sasuke had Orochimaru and the cursed seal inside him, things that improved his physical conditions, so one could argue that the current one is even weaker than the past one in taijutsu.



Sasuke actively tried to go toe to toe with him in sustained combat.... Itachi saw he was overwhelmed with a kunai (he's more skilled in kenjutsu), and immediately fled

Physical conditions =/= taijutsu skill

An old man can be more skillful than an MMA fighter despite the latter being vastly physically superior, skill & physical aren't 100% correlated.  



blk said:


> That KCM Naruto wanted only to talk is a poor excuse; Itachi was an immortal zombie, the former had all the of the time of the world for talk to him and fatal hits wouldn't have changed anything (and Naruto did also stated that he wouldn't hold back against the edos or the zetsu).
> None of them was holding back in taijutsu during that exchange.



It's not, seeing if RM Naruto was intending to do Itachi harm, he would have ripped him in half with a chakra arm or two seeing they were in free fall. It was simply a small Taijutsu exchange, Killer B on the other was TRYING to kill Itachi


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## blk (Jun 17, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Killer B was forcing him back, that shows superiority in the former which should be logical based on how Sasuke performed against said person
> 
> With his bare hands? Sasuke with a sword was being tagged left & right, Itachi barehanded would have been a pile of meat slices on the ground against Killer B
> 
> ...



I recognize that it's more likely that Itachi used a kunai for counter Bee's style, however, since we can't see what precisely happened and Itachi was able to easily avoid Bee's hits before, it's also possible that he used his hands (of course not for block the swords themselves, but rather Bee's arms, or stuff like that).

Who said that Itachi could have used Amaterasu during the exchange? I proposed a possible alternative to the unsupported belief that Itachi was being overwhelmed, which is that he fled away because he had to charge Amaterasu.
Since Itachi already shown greater CQC skill than Sasuke, it's not absurd to think that he could hold his own against Bee.

The fact that Sasuke was unable to compete and retreat against Bee's style (and mind you that the former had a sword, unlike Itachi) is evidence for my argument.



> Feat wise Nagato is very much on the same level as Itachi (he coordinates the boides movements), Tendo tagged Kakashi in 2 moves with Nagato's concentration/chakra split 6+ ways
> 
> By feats Naruto, Itachi & Nagato are all better than Kakashi in QcQ



Are you equating mind control feats with taijutsu?

The only thing that Deva did was a kick, that was easily dodged.... i don't know how you can tell from such short exchange that Deva is better than Kakashi.



> Physical conditions =/= taijutsu skill
> 
> An old man can be more skillful than an MMA fighter despite the latter being vastly physically superior, skill & physical aren't 100% correlated.



Yes, and?

There is nothing that suggests that Sasuke became significantly better at taijutsu after losing the cursed seal and Orochimaru.



> It's not, seeing if RM Naruto was intending to do Itachi harm, he would have ripped him in half with a chakra arm or two seeing they were in free fall. It was simply a small Taijutsu exchange, Killer B on the other was TRYING to kill Itachi



Like Itachi could have done the same with a Susano'o arm. 

Remember that we are talking about taijutsu, not ninjutsu or anything of the sort.


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## Baroxio (Jun 17, 2013)

We've already seen that Killer Bee is >/= than Sasuke in taijutsu/kenjutsu, and KCM Naruto should logically be >>>> Base Naruto in things like strength and speed, which means his taijutsu will suffer in comparison.

Considering Itachi fought fairly evenly with Killer Bee and KCM Naruto simultaneously, Itachi could feasibly take a taijutsu only match between the two. He certainly isn't getting overwhelmed, at any rate.


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Considering Itachi fought fairly evenly with Killer Bee and KCM Naruto simultaneously




No, no he didn't.

He could barley handle Bee by himself. He lasted a panel or 2 before fleeing.


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## Kanki (Jun 17, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> We've already seen that Killer Bee is >/= than Sasuke in taijutsu/kenjutsu, and KCM Naruto should logically be >>>> Base Naruto in things like strength and speed, which means his taijutsu will suffer in comparison.
> 
> Considering Itachi fought fairly evenly with Killer Bee and KCM Naruto simultaneously, Itachi could feasibly take a taijutsu only match between the two. He certainly isn't getting overwhelmed, at any rate.



I think you need to put it into a bit of perspective - that was nothing more than a brief scrap, especially from Naruto - if you remember he didn't even want to fight at the time. It lasted about 2 seconds in real time, with barely a punch thrown from anyone. This thread in theory is a fight to the death.

Also just because Naruto was in his KCM form, it doesn't mean he was using anything close to his high speed. He has the ability to reach faster levels when he wants to - he didn't want to in this case as he simply wanted to talk. I don't know  if physical strength/power can have the same argument though.

That being said, I agree that no one gets overwhelmed here.



Nikushimi said:


> Kakashi never forced Itachi to do anything. It was all Kakashi could do to pin him with a Kage Bunshin long enough for Naruto to hit him with Oodama Rasengan, and that was the 30% Shouten, so Kakashi definitely isn't better at Taijutsu than he is.



"All Kakashi could do" or A good tactical decision? There's nothing to suggest Kakashi couldn't do anymore. We've seen him engage in much more serious taijutsu fights with Hidan for a start, where the level was much higher than the level both Kakashi and Itachi used.

Kakashi intended to hold Itachi, and he managed to do it.


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## Joakim3 (Jun 17, 2013)

blk said:


> I recognize that it's more likely that Itachi used a kunai for counter Bee's style, however, since we can't see what precisely happened and Itachi was able to easily avoid Bee's hits before, it's also possible that he used his hands (of course not for block the swords themselves, but rather Bee's arms, or stuff like that).



You can't block Killer B's are simply by the nature of his fighting style. Her spins around like a buzz saw, he is anything but conventional 

Sasuke literally did the same thing as Itachi. The difference is Sasuke continued to attack rather retreat when he was plainly outmatched, something his brother was intelligent enough not to do. 

Sasuke canonically lasted longer than Itachi did against Killer B (and before excuses are made Itachi is fully capable of fighting on par Sasuke with a Kunai)



blk said:


> Who said that Itachi could have used Amaterasu during the exchange? I proposed a possible alternative to the unsupported belief that Itachi was being overwhelmed, which is that he fled away because he had to charge Amaterasu.
> Since Itachi already shown greater CQC skill than Sasuke, it's not absurd to think that he could hold his own against Bee.



Unsupported, everything in the page supports Itachi was fucked if he kept his taijutsu skirmish with Killer B, it's a literal mirror image of what Sasuke did in chapter 411. 

Your using the strawman argument of needed to run to use Amaterasu, something that was never hinted or supported in the manga

He showed greater CqC skill by sparing against a reserved RM Naruto, and surviving for one panel against Killer B (something his little brother bested by a good margin)



blk said:


> The fact that Sasuke was unable to compete and retreat against Bee's style (and mind you that the former had a sword, unlike Itachi) is evidence for my argument.



Sasuke *never retreated*, he was flat out put down after 2 full pages of skirmishing.... something his older brother came no where close to achieving.

It's shown that Itachi is capable os sparing with Sasuke with a Kunai, he accells at them (same way Kakashi could fight evenly with Hidan). 

Itachi flat out would not have lasted as long against Killer B as his brother



blk said:


> Are you equating mind control feats with taijutsu?
> 
> The only thing that Deva did was a kick, that was easily dodged.... i don't know how you can tell from such short exchange that Deva is better than Kakashi.



Huh yeah, Your body doesn't move without the mind telling it what to do. 

All the _Pein Rikudo_ *taijustu skill* (NOT PHYSICAL ABILITES) are Nagato's, he's the one that tells the to dip, duck, dogdge, kick etc.. etc..

Kakashi dodged said kick, tried to Doton and was stabbed by Tendo before he could physically defend. That shows taijutsu dominance 




blk said:


> Yes, and?
> 
> There is nothing that suggests that Sasuke became significantly better at taijutsu after losing the cursed seal and Orochimaru.



He was capable of defending himself against Kakashi & Danzo in their skirmishes, both who are no slackers in the department



blk said:


> Like Itachi could have done the same with a Susano'o arm.
> 
> Remember that we are talking about taijutsu, not ninjutsu or anything of the sort.



Thats fine, they were in free fall so speed has nothing to do with it. RM Naruto is capable physically holding a set of Biju jaws open, you don't think he could have simply slapped Itachi into the woods if he choose?

We saw how serious Naruto can be in SM, when he flat out foddered a lone Tendo, and then kicked him 50 meters into a rock


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## IchLiebe (Jun 17, 2013)

blk said:


> Well, Itachi did traded blows with Bee for a while  [1], with a kunai or maybe even bare hands.


 Bullshit, The anime (going by that it was as close to canon as anime can be, meaning that there wasn't any obvious contradictions to the manga as shown) clearly showed Itachi evaded the sword dance until he was forced back. He didn't block shit.





> The fact that he fled away doesn't tell much, it could have been either because he was being overwhelmed or simply because he had to use Amaterasu.


 If he had to use amaterasu he was overwhelmed. KB reacted to Itachi's every move with ease.





> Anyway, he had better performance than Sasuke.


 No Sasuke caught him in Amaterasu, landed a chidori, and actually landed attacks. Itachi had all his attacks blocked and reacted to while not being able to land a single viable hit.





> Yes, now i remember about that exchange. However, by feats Deva isn't at the same level of Itachi, so that's still not enough.
> Against Kakashi he barely tried to kick him, that's certainly not enough for establish any equality.


 Deva has shown superior taijutsu than Itachi. Itachi really doesn't have any spectacular taijutsu feats.





> Part 2 Sasuke was beated by Bee, while Itachi wasn't. Further, Hebi Sasuke had Orochimaru and the cursed seal inside him, things that improved his physical conditions, so one could argue that the current one is even weaker than the past one in taijutsu.


 Atleast Sasuke was able to land attacks, Itachi was shutdown against Bee. 





> That KCM Naruto wanted only to talk is a poor excuse; Itachi was an immortal zombie, the former had all the of the time of the world for talk to him and fatal hits wouldn't have changed anything (and Naruto did also stated that he wouldn't hold back against the edos or the zetsu).


 Oh I must have missed the part where Naruto used shadow clones, rasengan, planetary rasengan, FRS, mini-FRS, attempted bijuudama against Itachi... oh thats right he didn't use any of those....conclusion Naruto wasn't trying or he would've used his power techs instead of engaging an immortal in CQC and at that time he had no way to seal the edo's, he had no idea how he was going to stop them.





> None of them was holding back in taijutsu during that exchange.



Naruto was or else he would've blitzed Itachi in the beginning of the match with a rasengan, planetary rasengan, FRS, or even a chakra arm but no, Naruto the one who rarely engages in taijutsu went for taijutsu.  Yea makes sense that he was trying.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 17, 2013)

It's really rather obvious that Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto was holding back on that occasion. 

We've seen that in that form, Naruto fights with a plethora of options backing him. Multiple chakra arms, all of them extendable from his body and capable of creating individual Rasengans on their lonesome, Planetary Rasengan, Rasen-Absorption, Big Ball Rasengan, Rasenshuriken and its mini-variant, yet against Itachi he didn't bother with any and opted to merely intercept his free-fall?

If Naruto truly intended to harm the guy, at least one of the above options would have been employed; instead, in most of the panels we're given of their exchange, we only see Naruto evading his attacks. Couple this with the prior statement that Naruto needed to talk with Itachi and did so during their airborne confrontation and how could anybody find it logical to claim Itachi was on-par with Naruto in taijutsu? They aren't.


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (Jun 17, 2013)

Sasuke fought KB after just getting his M.S. He was overconfident and cocky in his abilities and eyes and KB showed him what real skill was. 

Edo Itachi did much better than Sasuke, dodging KB's Sword play,using Genjutsu, and bushinS escaping KB's partial Jin transformation. Itachi is more skilled than Sasuke, he doesn't get taken by surprise because he has Genjutsu counters and bushins.

Sasuke has improved in all his stats since fighting KB, Ei, and getting EMS. So a fight with KB would go differently.
Current Sasuke and Itachi actually have the same LV in tajitsu. Itachi is just more skilled meaning when he fights CQC he places a genjutsu on his opponent as they clash or a bushin which is usually part of his Genjutsu.


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## ueharakk (Jun 17, 2013)

blk said:


> Yes, now i remember about that exchange. However, *by feats Deva isn't at the same level of Itachi, so that's still not enough.*


the bolded is an assertion.  Please back up that assertion with an argument, else it is baseless.



blk said:


> Against Kakashi he barely tried to kick him, *that's certainly not enough for establish any equality.*


all kakashi did was dodge a kick from deva and got shanked by a chakra rod.  We have one taijutsu exchange between kakashi and deva and deva outperforms kakashi.  Thus Deva being at least kakashi's equal in this department is a very conservative claim.  The bolded is simply an assertion, one which you would have to provide an argument for.



blk said:


> Part 2 Sasuke was beated by Bee, while Itachi wasn't.


  the hachibi couldn't beat sandaime raikage while a sage mode clone could.



blk said:


> Further, Hebi Sasuke had Orochimaru and the cursed seal inside him, things that improved his physical conditions, so one could argue that the current one is even weaker than the past one in taijutsu.


And?  Did itachi beat Hebi Sasuke in taijutsu?



blk said:


> *That KCM Naruto wanted only to talk is a poor excuse*; Itachi was an immortal zombie, the former had all the of the time of the world for talk to him and fatal hits wouldn't have changed anything (and Naruto did also stated that he wouldn't hold back against the edos or the zetsu).


bolded is simply an assertion.  Naruto didn't use any of his speed or chakra arms, only reacted to itachi's attacks, fatal hits would DEFINTELY have changed things since edos become paralyzed when they get hit.



blk said:


> None of them was holding back in taijutsu during that exchange.


baseless assertion.


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## Jak N Blak (Jun 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> To both of you: Naruto wasn't on Tendou's level at all. Tendou literally caught up to him from hundreds of meters away with a single bound when he was running the other direction. Naruto lasted a few seconds purely on defense and would've taken a big black rod to the face () if Sennin Moodo hadn't kicked in at the last second.
> 
> Incidentally, I would compare Tendou's physical prowess to Itachi's, or thereabout.



Wait, wait, wait.

So Naruto lasting for a 'few seconds' against Tendo doesn't mean he's on his level 'at all' but Itachi hanging with KCM Naruto for a panel? Oh, well then its perfectly fine for you to put him on Naruto's level.

GTFO.

The disrespect. Holy fuck. Can anyone in this thread honestly create the mental picture of Naruto being defeated with kicks & punches? Pahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
The Power of WILL motherfuckers. Learn it. Let it sink in. Itachi could snap Naruto's neck in half and he'd still get up to fight.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jun 18, 2013)

Itachi. Much faster and has better Taijutsu.


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## blk (Jun 18, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> You can't block Killer B's are simply by the nature of his fighting style. Her spins around like a buzz saw, he is anything but conventional
> 
> Sasuke literally did the same thing as Itachi. The difference is Sasuke continued to attack rather retreat when he was plainly outmatched, something his brother was intelligent enough not to do.
> 
> ...



Dude, you are saying that since Itachi and Sasuke's performance against Bee seemed similar, the conclusion would have been the same. This is an assumption.

Please, provide evidence that Itachi being outmatched is what would have happened. 
As far as i'm concerned he could have retreated because of being outmatched, or because he had to charge Amaterasu, or both, or for the sake of it.

If Sasuke lost to Bee because he wasn't intelligent enough for not retreat, that's an evidence in more for my argument; intelligence matters even in CQC.

"Your using the strawman argument...", you are clearly misunderstanding what the strawman fallacy entails.



> Huh yeah, Your body doesn't move without the mind telling it what to do.
> 
> All the _Pein Rikudo_ *taijustu skill* (NOT PHYSICAL ABILITES) are Nagato's, he's the one that tells the to dip, duck, dogdge, kick etc.. etc..
> 
> Kakashi dodged said kick, tried to Doton and was stabbed by Tendo before he could physically defend. That shows taijutsu dominance



There is quite a difference between ordering to bodies to do that stuff via mind control, and doing those moves with one own body.

The only thing that was taijutsu about that encounter was the kick, which was dodged.
Doton is not taijutsu, same goes the black rod that came from Deva's dress.

What you can conclude from that encounter is that neither of them has a significant advantage in speed or strength over the other.
But certainly, you can't accurately judge the fighting skill of someone just by seeing a single kick.



> He was capable of defending himself against Kakashi & Danzo in their skirmishes, both who are no slackers in the department



This is stuff that he could have done even in his Hebi version.



> Thats fine, they were in free fall so speed has nothing to do with it. *RM Naruto is capable physically holding a set of Biju jaws open, you don't think he could have simply slapped Itachi into the woods if he choose?*
> 
> We saw how serious Naruto can be in SM, when he flat out foddered a lone Tendo, and then kicked him 50 meters into a rock



This pretty much confirms my thoughts: you are having problems at accepting the evidences as they are, because you have made up your mind already.
For you (and many other people) Itachi _cannot_ be on par with KCM Naruto in CQC, cannot compete with Bee's style and is at Sasuke's level.
Therefore, any evidence that shows that he _can_ compete with those guys and that he is better than Sasuke is being reinterpreted in order to suit yours already made beliefs.
Infact, the bold is argument from incredulity "it is absurd to think that Itachi is as strong as someone as KCM Naruto!".

I mean, just look at your own argument. 

1) Since for you Itachi cannot compete with Bee, the evidences mean that:

- he fled away because he was being outmatched;

- he is on par with Sasuke, so the conclusion of the exchange would have been the same.

The first is baseless, any other reason for fleeing away is equally possible.
The second is baseless too, if not flat out wrong; infact Itachi already beat Hebi Sasuke in CQC pretty badly.
Since the above might suggest that Itachi can compete with Bee (but you cannot accept that), you are suggesting that current Sasuke is somehow significantly better than his past version in taijutsu, which is another unsupported assertion.

The argument regarding KCM Naruto is the same, you are reinterpreting the evidences and not taking them for what they are: you see Itachi competing with Naruto, but since you don't believe that it is possible, you just assume that the latter did hold his strength (which also ignores the fact that Naruto said that he won't hold back against Edos).

But regardless of what you believe, the facts are:

- Itachi competed with Bee for a while and then fled away for whatever reason;

- He traded blows with KCM Naruto without being overwhelmed;

- Sasuke was beated in CQC by his brother.




IchLiebe said:


> Bullshit, The anime (going by that it was as close to canon as anime can be, meaning that there wasn't any obvious contradictions to the manga as shown) clearly showed Itachi evaded the sword dance until he was forced back. He didn't block shit.
> 
> If he had to use amaterasu he was overwhelmed. KB reacted to Itachi's every move with ease.
> 
> No Sasuke caught him in Amaterasu, landed a chidori, and actually landed attacks. Itachi had all his attacks blocked and reacted to while not being able to land a single viable hit.



The anime is non-canon. In the manga, you can clearly see the clashes [1].

Or maybe he used Amaterasu because his autopilot forced him to? Or maybe because he wanted to end the fight fastly? Or for the sake of it?

We are talking about CQC, what Sasuke did with his ninjutsu is of no importance.

Remember that Itachi already beat Sasuke in taijutsu.





> Deva has shown superior taijutsu than Itachi. Itachi really doesn't have any spectacular taijutsu feats. Atleast Sasuke was able to land attacks, Itachi was shutdown against Bee.



Deva has barely any CQC feat, i'm not sure how makes you think that he is stronger.



> Oh I must have missed the part where Naruto used shadow clones, rasengan, planetary rasengan, FRS, mini-FRS, attempted bijuudama against Itachi... oh thats right he didn't use any of those....conclusion Naruto wasn't trying or he would've used his power techs instead of engaging an immortal in CQC and at that time he had no way to seal the edo's, he had no idea how he was going to stop them.
> 
> Naruto was or else he would've blitzed Itachi in the beginning of the match with a rasengan, planetary rasengan, FRS, or even a chakra arm but no, Naruto the one who rarely engages in taijutsu went for taijutsu.  Yea makes sense that he was trying.



Yeah, exactly like Itachi didn't used any Susano'o variation, or genjutsu or explosive Bunshins for immediatly kill/knock out Naruto during their exchange.

But guess what? We are talking about taijutsu, nor ninjutsu or anything similar.




ueharakk said:


> the bolded is an assertion.  Please back up that assertion with an argument, else it is baseless.
> 
> all kakashi did was dodge a kick from deva and got shanked by a chakra rod.  We have one taijutsu exchange between kakashi and deva and deva outperforms kakashi.  Thus Deva being at least kakashi's equal in this department is a very conservative claim.  The bolded is simply an assertion, one which you would have to provide an argument for.



It's pretty evident: Deva has weaker feats in taijutsu.

Itachi beat Hebi Sasuke in CQC, who is stronger than base Naruto. On the other hand, Deva wasn't able to overpower Naruto in taijutsu.

Further, Itachi competed with Bee, KCM Naruto and traded hits with a perfect Sage (Kabuto) without being blown away by his strength or incapable of keeping up with his speed.
This, while Deva was beated badly by SM Naruto.

What you can conclude from the encounter between Deva and Kakashi is that neither of them has a significant advantage in speed or strength over the other.
But certainly, you can't accurately judge the fighting skill of someone just by seeing a single kick.



> the hachibi couldn't beat sandaime raikage while a sage mode clone could.



..... ok?



> And?  Did itachi beat Hebi Sasuke in taijutsu?



Yep, check one my previous posts in this thread for the links to the pages.



> bolded is simply an assertion.  Naruto didn't use any of his speed or chakra arms, only reacted to itachi's attacks, fatal hits would DEFINTELY have changed things since edos become paralyzed when they get hit.
> 
> 
> baseless assertion.



Like i said to the others, we are talking about taijutsu.
Naruto didn't used chakra arms as much as Itachi didn't used Susano'o arms; but this has nothing to do with the matter at hand.


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## Bkprince33 (Jun 18, 2013)

Wasn't sasuke losing to bee, even before bee decided to pull out his seven swords?

I also find it silly to say because itachi had to retreat against bee sasuke had a better preformance, because at the end of the move sasuke was left near death and itachi wasn't even graced by bee once, sasuke got hit a few times even before the seven swords, intelligence is a part of fighting to, knowing when to defend and knowing when to attack.



Any boxing fan would know this, a  good boxer won't just blindly rush in all day, take mayweather for example people don't like hm for his defensive fighting style but at the end of the day what can you say to the man if he never lost.


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## Krippy (Jun 18, 2013)

blk said:


> Well, Itachi did traded blows with Bee for a while  [1], with a kunai or maybe even bare hands.
> The fact that he fled away doesn't tell much, it could have been either because he was being overwhelmed or simply because he had to use Amaterasu.
> 
> Anyway, he had better performance than Sasuke.



Nah, even while weakened Sasuke held off bee's seven swords style far longer than Itachi did, getting a cut on his cheek and some dirt on his cloak in the process. Their skirmishes were almost mirrored to each other with Itachi performing only marginally better at full power. Itachi fell back on his MS because he couldn't effectively counter Kirabi's taijutsu. 

what you see here is pretty much what Itachi did here. Neither one did any viable damage to Kirabi in the intial exchange but managed to goad him into bringing out the big boy toys.

The idea that he wasn't intelligent enough to retreat is also laughable, Sasuke had no knowledge on Kirabi's ration, so he assumed his ration blade would be an effective counter, it has nothing to do with intelligence.


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## Stermor (Jun 18, 2013)

everything you need to know about the sasuke versus killerbee fight was in the first panel and the last one before he went full hachibee.. 

the first one was him not even bothering to block sasuke.. then the last panel was saying he played enough... 

killerbee outclassed and completly raped sasuke during that encounter.. sasuke lasting longer then itachi only because killerbee stopped.. if he continued itachi would have to run further.. and might get some injury's.. this entire idee is stupid because he was playing arround with sasuke.. while he wasn't against itachi.. 

it is itachi's feat that he was taken seriously by bee.. and survived.. while sasuke was killed 3 times by bee who was just playing... 

that said i still believe sasuke and naruto win because they are going to be to hard to put down before itachi runs out of stamina..


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## blk (Jun 18, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Nah, even while weakened Sasuke held off bee's seven swords style far longer than Itachi did, getting a cut on his cheek and some dirt on his cloak in the process. Their skirmishes were almost mirrored to each other with Itachi performing only marginally better at full power. Itachi fell back on his MS because he couldn't effectively counter Kirabi's taijutsu.
> 
> what you see here is pretty much what Itachi did here. Neither one did any viable damage to Kirabi in the intial exchange but managed to goad him into bringing out the big boy toys.
> 
> The idea that he wasn't intelligent enough to retreat is also laughable, Sasuke had no knowledge on Kirabi's ration, so he assumed his ration blade would be an effective counter, it has nothing to do with intelligence.



When did Sasuke held off Bee's style far longer? If you count the "rotations" that Sasuke blocked with his sword, we have 5/6 instances for Sasuke while 6 for Itachi.

For Sasuke, one in the middle panel of this page [1] and maybe another at the bottom left (the FX of the clashes are absent, so it's doubtful if there was one in that instance). Then you have other 4 in the following page [2].

For Itachi, we have 4/5 instances in the middle left panel and another one in the right bottom of this page [3]. It's uncertain if the first "rotation" of the middle panel was blocked, since there are no FX of clashes around it.

So, at best, we have Sasuke blocking six times Bee's assaults, while Itachi doing it five times.
Otherwise, one might directly count the single FXs, and then you have 18 clashes for Sasuke while 14 for Itachi (if i counted well). 
In each case, the difference is negligible; the young Uchiha didn't hold off Bee for "far longer".

Also, no, what Itachi did wasn't the same.
Sasuke's kick had no effect on Bee, he didn't even needed to defend from it [4], so he wasn't forced to utilize his style.
But unlike his brother, Itachi did forced Bee to bring out his swords for block the incoming shurikens [5 ; 6].

About the last part:

- we are talking about this instance [7], not the one where Bee used the raiton;

-  i'm not the one who came up with the idea that Sasuke wasn't intelligent enough for retreat in the situation of above, it was used as an excuse by Joakim3 for argue that Sasuke had the same perfomance, against Bee, as Itachi.
However, granting that it was the reason for Sasuke's perfomance, it ended up supporting the opposing argument (because intelligence matters in CQC).

So the argument was that whether it was a matter of intelligence, or agility, or pure taijutsu skills, Sasuke did worst than Itachi (because all those things count in a taijutsu battle).


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## ZE (Jun 18, 2013)

^Weapons also count in a taijutsu fight and you just excluded Deva's chakra rod, which is clearly a weapon, from his taijutsu skill. 




Fact of the matter here is that Sasuke was canonically weakened when he fought Bee, as in not on his best. So the difference in his performance in comparison to that of his brother can be easily explained. 

The Itachi that survived (because that's what he did) against Bee was Edo Itachi. His best version yet. 

The Sasuke that survived against Bee, regardless of his injuries, was weakened as stated by Jungo. 



So we have an healthy Sasuke (who shouldn't be that much worse than Itachi in taijutsu) backed up by Naruto, who is close to Deva in taijutsu (the same Deva that with taijutsu alone outperformed a Kakashi using ninjutsu) vs an healthy Itachi. 

My conclusion is simple, if there's a winner, it certainly won't be Itachi. Itachi's taijutsu was never depicted to be so great that he can dispose of two Kakashi level taijutsu fighters.


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## Krippy (Jun 18, 2013)

blk said:


> When did Sasuke held off Bee's style far longer? If you count the "rotations" that Sasuke blocked with his sword, we have 5/6 instances for Sasuke while 6 for Itachi.
> 
> For Sasuke, one in the middle panel of this page [1] and maybe another at the bottom left (the FX of the clashes are absent, so it's doubtful if there was one in that instance). Then you have other 4 in the following page [2].
> 
> ...



I counted panels, and 6/7 panels is a more sustained clash than 1 and a half.
I probably should have worded it differently.



> Otherwise, one might directly count the single FXs, and then you have 18 clashes for Sasuke while 14 for Itachi (if i counted well).
> In each case, the difference is negligible; the young Uchiha didn't hold off Bee for "far longer".



More panels means a longer duration, the anime supports this.



> Also, no, what Itachi did wasn't the same.
> Sasuke's kick had no effect on Bee, he didn't even needed to defend from it [4], so he wasn't forced to utilize his style.
> But unlike his brother, Itachi did forced Bee to bring out his swords for block the incoming shurikens [5 ; 6].



Yes, he was, he was outmaneuvered and disarmed. Unless you believe him continuing with Suigetsu's sword would have harmed him lol. Sasuke didn't even have his sharingan active.



> About the last part:
> 
> - we are talking about this instance [7], not the one where Bee used the raiton;
> 
> ...



It's still irrelevant as Sasuke lost the majority of his old moveset, was weakened from his fight with Itachi, and had barely anything to fall back on besides Katons, ration, and genjutsu. Put him at full health and with a developed MS and this wouldn't be an issue.


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## blk (Jun 18, 2013)

ZE said:


> ^Weapons also count in a taijutsu fight and you just excluded Deva's chakra rod, which is clearly a weapon, from his taijutsu skill.



The rod just appeared from Deva's dress, he didn't do any particular moves with it.




> Fact of the matter here is that Sasuke was canonically weakened when he fought Bee, as in not on his best. So the difference in his performance in comparison to that of his brother can be easily explained.
> 
> The Itachi that survived (because that's what he did) against Bee was Edo Itachi. His best version yet.
> 
> The Sasuke that survived against Bee, regardless of his injuries, was weakened as stated by Jungo.



Where was it stated that Sasuke was weakened?
In this thread Itachi is healthy, so his taijutsu performance will be as good as the ones of his edo version.



> So we have an healthy Sasuke (who shouldn't be that much worse than Itachi in taijutsu) backed up by Naruto, who is close to Deva in taijutsu (the same Deva that with taijutsu alone outperformed a Kakashi using ninjutsu) vs an healthy Itachi.
> 
> My conclusion is simple, if there's a winner, it certainly won't be Itachi. Itachi's taijutsu was never depicted to be so great that he can dispose of two Kakashi level taijutsu fighters.



Hebi Sasuke (who should be physically stronger than the current one) was beated by Itachi.

Base Naruto is weaker than the same Sasuke that Itachi beat easily enough, so your conclusion is most likely not correct.


So, just because a black rod that suddenly appeared from Deva's dress hit Kakashi, the latter was outperformed? Let's ignore that Kakashi intercepted Deva's attack against Iruka and that dodged his kick easily.

Seriously, _you cannot conclude anything_ from that ridicolous encounter that wasn't even taijutsu centered.
At best, you might say that it shows that the speed, agility and strength of Deva and Kakashi are similar, but nothing other than this.
Such short exchange is certainly not enough for judge accurately the level of skill in pure taijutsu.




Krippy said:


> I counted panels, and 6/7 panels is a more sustained clash than 1 and a half.
> I probably should have worded it differently.



The panels where Sasuke and Bee clash (while the latter uses his seven swords style) are three at best.
In half of the ones that i guess that you are referring to, there is no contact between the two.



> More panels means a longer duration, the anime supports this.



Nope.
And the anime is non-canon.

Judge from the number of FXs is more accurate.



> Yes, he was, he was outmaneuvered and disarmed. Unless you believe him continuing with Suigetsu's sword would have harmed him lol. Sasuke didn't even have his sharingan active.



Who knows? Probably Sasuke would have had an easier time if Bee continued with Suigetsu's sword, but this doesn't certainly mean that the latter was forced to use his seven swords.



> It's still irrelevant as Sasuke lost the majority of his old moveset, was weakened from his fight with Itachi, and had barely anything to fall back on besides Katons, ration, and genjutsu. Put him at full health and with a developed MS and this wouldn't be an issue.



How is it irrelevant? Where was it stated that Sasuke was weakened?

His ninjutsu and MS have nothing to do with the discussion.


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## ueharakk (Jun 18, 2013)

blk said:


> It's pretty evident: Deva has weaker feats in taijutsu.


once again, baseless assertion



blk said:


> Itachi beat Hebi Sasuke in CQC, who is stronger than base Naruto. On the other hand, Deva wasn't able to overpower Naruto in taijutsu.


when did Itachi beat Hebi sasuke in CQC?



blk said:


> Further, Itachi competed with Bee, KCM Naruto and traded hits with a perfect Sage (Kabuto) without being blown away by his strength or incapable of keeping up with his speed.
> This, while Deva was beated badly by SM Naruto.


Kabuto isn't a perfect sage, and Kabuto has shown no strength feats that suggest he is nearly as strong as SM Naruto.



blk said:


> What you can conclude from the encounter between Deva and Kakashi is that neither of them has a significant advantage in speed or strength over the other.
> *But certainly, you can't accurately judge the fighting skill of someone just by seeing a single kick.*


Bolded is not only false as Kakashi was stabbed by Deva in their exchange, but its only an assertion.  

Even the unbolded is merely an assertion.  If we have just one feat of taijutsu between deva and kakashi, then that's all we have to base our arguments on, you're once again just using your own subjective criteria to boot out what you don't like.  Why do we draw the line at just one feat?  Why not say 4 feats aren't conclusive, or 8 feats?  Why not 10 feats?  It's all based on your own subjective criteria of what qualifies as good evidence or not, and by that logic, any argument can be thrown away since the opposition could just be super skeptical.  Thus the correct way to argue is based on the strengths of both sides of the argument, not setting a subjective threshold of evidence that one side has to fullfill in order to start arguing.




blk said:


> ..... ok?


concession accepted on this point.




blk said:


> Yep, check one my previous posts in this thread for the links to the pages.


All of those links were of itachi and sasuke fighting each other in a genjutsu.....




blk said:


> Like i said to the others, we are talking about taijutsu.
> Naruto didn't used chakra arms as much as Itachi didn't used Susano'o arms; but this has nothing to do with the matter at hand.


except chakra arms are part of naruto's taijutsu, yet susanoo is strictly a ninjutsu.  and you also haven't addressed any of the other factors that I have brought up that show naruto was holding back.


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## ZE (Jun 18, 2013)

blk said:


> The rod just appeared from Deva's dress, he didn't do any particular moves with it.


The rod appearing from Deva?s sleeve shows Deva?s taijutsu skill. The fact that he stabbed Kakashi with it shows he did something with it, contrary to what you?re saying. 



> Where was it stated that Sasuke was weakened?


In the manga. Search the panel yourself. An hint, it happened right after the Sasuke vs Bee fight.



> In this thread Itachi is healthy, so his taijutsu performance will be as good as the ones of his edo version.


In this fight Sasuke is healthy, so his taijutsu performance will be much better than what he showed against Bee. 



> Hebi Sasuke (who should be physically stronger than the current one) was beated by Itachi.


This is a taijutsu fight. To beat hebi Sasuke Itachi had to use the MS and other stuff. He never beat Sasuke with taijutsu, he even failed at beating Sasuke with his best weapon: genjutsu.



> Base Naruto is weaker than the same Sasuke that Itachi beat easily enough, so your conclusion is most likely not correct.


Itachi never beat Sasuke in a taijutsu exchange. 



> So, just because a black rod that suddenly appeared from Deva's dress hit Kakashi, the latter was outperformed? Let's ignore that Kakashi intercepted Deva's attack against Iruka and that dodged his kick easily.


He dodged a kick and resorted to ninjutsu straight away while Deva kept using taijutsu. It was clear who was outperformed of the two.



> Seriously, _you cannot conclude anything_ from that ridicolous encounter that wasn't even taijutsu centered.
> At best, you might say that it shows that the speed, agility and strength of Deva and Kakashi are similar, but nothing other than this.
> Such short exchange is certainly not enough for judge accurately the level of skill in pure taijutsu.


Deva is skilled enough that he can injure Kakashi in two panels.
Deva wasn?t skilled enough to do that against base Naruto.
Conclusion: base Naruto is at least around Kakashi when it comes to taijutsu


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## Krippy (Jun 18, 2013)

blk said:


> The panels where Sasuke and Bee clash (while the latter uses his seven swords style) are three at best.
> In half of the ones that i guess that you are referring to, there is no contact between the two.



Counting the amount of times their swords made contact is nitpicking at it's finest. Were Kirabi and Sauce sitting there taking turns swinging at each other? No. They were spinning, ducking, and diving, reading each others moves in a sustained clash which ended with Kirabi wining. Sasuke held his own longer than Itachi did, it's pretty clear.



> Nope.



Yup.



> And the anime is non-canon.



Doesn't mean I can't use it as a reference.



> Judge from the number of FXs is more accurate.



If you want to nitpick, sure.



> Who knows? Probably Sasuke would have had an easier time if Bee continued with Suigetsu's sword, but this doesn't certainly mean that the latter was forced to use his seven swords.



Yes it does, you think Kirabi needed to pull out his swords to block some lolshuriken when he effortlessly blocked some _flaming_ shuriken with his hand moments before?

Kirabi pulls out his swords when he feels he needs them, and he felt he needed them both times he pulled them out in canon. 



> How is it irrelevant? Where was it stated that Sasuke was weakened?
> 
> His ninjutsu and MS have nothing to do with the discussion.



Perfect Susanoo-Kurama

If he had been in the same condition as Itachi, there wouldn't be any discussion about who did better, because Sasuke was clearly nerfed while Itachi was at full power and still performed about as well even in his condition.

-neither one hurt Kirabi in the exchange
-both couldn't counter his seven swords effectively

Take out the flashy genjustu and ninjutsu and they did about the same.


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## blk (Jun 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> once again, baseless assertion



If you take it out of context, of course it is.



> when did Itachi beat Hebi sasuke in CQC?
> 
> All of those links were of itachi and sasuke fighting each other in a genjutsu.....



They weren't _in_ a genjutsu.
I'm pretty sure that the genjutsu was for hide themselves, while their clones were fighting (the most probable option, since according to the databook what Itachi used is a crow bunshin). 



> Kabuto isn't a perfect sage, and Kabuto has shown no strength feats that suggest he is nearly as strong as SM Naruto.



Never said that he was as strong as SM Naruto.

It's however worth noting that Itachi was able to trade blows with a Sage user.



> Bolded is not only false as Kakashi was stabbed by Deva in their exchange, but its only an assertion.
> 
> Even the unbolded is merely an assertion.  If we have just one feat of taijutsu between deva and kakashi, then that's all we have to base our arguments on, you're once again just using your own subjective criteria to boot out what you don't like.  Why do we draw the line at just one feat?  Why not say 4 feats aren't conclusive, or 8 feats?  Why not 10 feats?  It's all based on your own subjective criteria of what qualifies as good evidence or not, and by that logic, any argument can be thrown away since the opposition could just be super skeptical.  Thus the correct way to argue is based on the strengths of both sides of the argument, not setting a subjective threshold of evidence that one side has to fullfill in order to start arguing.



Stabbing someone with a black rod that appears from the arms is not something that i would consider as taijutsu, swordsmanship or kenjutsu.

Evidences can differ in quality, and different claims can require a different number of evidences with a different quality.
In other words, Kakashi's feat of dodging Deva's kick is an evidence for itself (i.e for the fact that Kakashi can dodge Deva's kicks in that kind of situations).
You'll need more compelling evidences for the claim that Deva and Kakashi are generally equals in taijutsu (or anything similar).




> concession accepted on this point.



The statement was correct, even though irrelevant.
So, if you want to take it as a concession, go ahead.




> except chakra arms are part of naruto's taijutsu, yet susanoo is strictly a ninjutsu.  and you also haven't addressed any of the other factors that I have brought up that show naruto was holding back.



The way that you label Naruto's chakra arms and the Susano'o ones doesn't change the concept: both didn't used chakra based stuff and thus hold back.
About your other points: Shunshin no jutsu is a ninjutsu (not that he could have use it in mid-air and during a CQC exchange) and both attacked and reacted [1].





ZE said:


> The rod appearing from Deva?s sleeve shows Deva?s taijutsu skill. The fact that he stabbed Kakashi with it shows he did something with it, contrary to what you?re saying.



How so? Making something come out from your arms isn't exactly what i would call a taijutsu, kenjutsu or swordsmanship skill.



> In the manga. Search the panel yourself. An hint, it happened right after the Sasuke vs Bee fight.



You made the claim and you provide the evidences.



> In this fight Sasuke is healthy, so his taijutsu performance will be much better than what he showed against Bee.



This doesn't address what you quoted, but ok.



> This is a taijutsu fight. To beat hebi Sasuke Itachi had to use the MS and other stuff. He never beat Sasuke with taijutsu, he even failed at beating Sasuke with his best weapon: genjutsu.



Obviously, i meant that Itachi beat Sasuke with taijutsu _in a taijutsu exchange_.



> Itachi never beat Sasuke in a taijutsu exchange.



He did it [2 ; 3].



> He dodged a kick and resorted to ninjutsu straight away while Deva kept using taijutsu. It was clear who was outperformed of the two.
> 
> 
> Deva is skilled enough that he can injure Kakashi in two panels.
> ...



Why do you ignore the differences between the two fights?
In the first there was kick and a black rod coming out of Deva's arms, with Kakashi having no knowledge that such a thing could happen.
In the second you have a pure hand-to-hand fight.
The two encounters happened in completely different ways.

This reasoning is like the one of the Itachi fans who ignore the circumstances of the battle between him and Nagato for justify claim that the former won alone.

Anyway, this discussion is not very relevant to the main subject.




Krippy said:


> Counting the amount of times their swords made contact is nitpicking at it's finest. Were Kirabi and Sauce sitting there taking turns swinging at each other? No. They were spinning, ducking, and diving, reading each others moves in a sustained clash which ended with Kirabi wining. Sasuke held his own longer than Itachi did, it's pretty clear.
> 
> Yup.
> 
> If you want to nitpick, sure.



To count all the panels regardless of their content is not correct.
Again, within those 6 panels that you mentioned there are only 3 where they fight.

I do agree that Sasuke hold for a bit longer, since there are more FXs in Sasuke's case, but your method is flawed.

The difference between how much each of them hold Bee is negligible anyway.



> Yes it does, you think Kirabi needed to pull out his swords to block some lolshuriken when he effortlessly blocked some _flaming_ shuriken with his hand moments before?
> 
> Kirabi pulls out his swords when he feels he needs them, and he felt he needed them both times he pulled them out in canon.



The latter shurikens were bigger, to be fair.

But i can agree. 
Since Sasuke was able to compete with Bee without the seven swords, the latter might have felt the need to unleash his style in order to achieve the victory.




> 3
> 
> If he had been in the same condition as Itachi, there wouldn't be any discussion about who did better, because Sasuke was clearly nerfed while Itachi was at full power and still performed about as well even in his condition.
> 
> ...



- Sasuke was knocked to the ground, while Itachi wasn't.

But regardless, you are right that Sasuke wasn't at his full health (though, there is still the fact that Itachi beat Hebi Sasuke in taijutsu).


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## Stermor (Jun 19, 2013)

blk said:


> The latter shurikens were bigger, to be fair.
> 
> But i can agree.
> Since Sasuke was able to compete with Bee without the seven swords, the latter might have felt the need to unleash his style in order to achieve the victory.
> ...



bee was playing arround against sasuke.. him using the sword was because he wanted to.. not because he needed them... that was made quite clear by him directly stating it.....


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## Antos (Jun 19, 2013)

If any thing I would say Naruto and Itachi are close in skill but without kcm or sm he lacks the proper reaction time and speed.  On another note a controlled Itachi was able to fight Bee and Kcm Naruto with no one being hit.  Bee played with Sasuke while he even used partial transformations to try to hit Itachi.  I would say Itachi wins due to the fact that even thought Naruto and Itachi are close but, base Naruto doesn't have the speed and reaction time as his kcm or sm to close that gap and Sasuke still got manhandled by by a near death wanting to lose Itachi.


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## ZE (Jun 19, 2013)

blk said:


> How so? Making something come out from your arms isn't exactly what i would call a taijutsu, kenjutsu or swordsmanship skill.


Manga calls the black rods a weapon. 
Maneuvering weapons is not genjutsu or ninjutsu. So that leaves only one option: taijutsu. 




> You made the claim and you provide the evidences.


I just told you where to find it. Stop being lazy. 



> This doesn't address what you quoted, but ok.


Yes it does. Sasuke was weakened when he fought Bee, so his performance shouldn?t be compared to that of an healthy Itachi.



> Obviously, i meant that Itachi beat Sasuke with taijutsu _in a taijutsu exchange_.


Never happened.



> He did it [2 ; 3].


Is that genjutsu supposed to be relevant to the discussion? 



> Why do you ignore the differences between the two fights?
> In the first there was kick and a black rod coming out of Deva's arms, with Kakashi having no knowledge that such a thing could happen.
> In the second you have a pure hand-to-hand fight.
> The two encounters happened in completely different ways.
> ...


This has nothing to do with Itachi and Nagato.
Itachi and Nagato never fought one on one. 
Nagato never attacked Itachi directly.

Kakashi vs Deva and Naruto vs Deva on the other hand were one on one fights with different conclusions. Naruto did better, so he deserves the credit, it?s that simple.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 19, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Let me remind you that Itachi can step with KCM Naruto and Killer B in Taijutsu. Even if they forced him back and he had no hope of beating them like that, it still shows that he can hang with guys who outstrip either of these two by a wide margin.



Let me remind you that: 

1. Naruto has a 3.5 in taijutsu, and Itachi couldn't gain an advantage over him. 

2. Itachi repeatedly fell back from Bee's taijutsu. 

3. Naruto wasn't using his super strength or shunshins, and Bee wasn't using his own Bijuu Cloak.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 19, 2013)

Itachi should be able to win this.

Remember how he dispatched Sasuke in 2 seconds in the beginning of their exchange ? With one fluid motion Sasuke found himself grabbed from the colar and being launched at the ground at high speed.

Itachi is capable enough to casually dodge a blind siding B while duking it out with KCM Naruto. 

Remember how casually he manhandled Kakashi's doton/sneak attacking bunshin ? The same type of attack which forced Deva realm to use a ST. The same Deva realm, who was convincingly winning against base Naruto with taijutsu.


Itachi is better @ taijutsu than these 2. He is also faster  than both of them. Is in the same strength tier. 

Won't be easy though, due to their number advantage. But Itachi should still take it.


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## Kanki (Jun 19, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi should be able to win this.
> 
> Remember how he dispatched Sasuke in 2 seconds in the beginning of their exchange ? With one fluid motion Sasuke found himself grabbed from the colar and being launched at the ground at high speed.
> 
> ...



You're taking feats completely out of context to suit your argument there, in fairness. 

Firstly Itachi didn't really 'duke it out' with Naruto - it was a scuffle and nothing more with the latter simply wanting to talk. It was a brief skirmish - that's it. If Itachi had lost that exchange then his taijutsu levels would be pretty low as Naruto wasn't serious.

Secondly, Sasuke vs Itachi was a genjutsu. I'd like to see evidence that suggests it reflects what would happen in the real world.

Thirdly, if Itachi "manhandled" Kakashi, then the latter was obviously too fast for Itachi to land a strike on in the second phase of that exchange. I'm sure you don't believe the latter so logically you shouldn't the former. They're tied in together. The sneak attack also worked as well - Kakashi intended to hold on to Itachi and for Naruto to land the killing blow. That's exactly what happened.

Finally, Pain used ST to block a simple kunai attack (3), which I'm fairly sure he could have avoided if needed. Him using it again to deal with a sneak attack isn't surprising and not an example of showing how fast Kakashi is, in an attempt to hype up Itachi.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 20, 2013)

blk said:


> If you take it out of context, of course it is.
> 
> They weren't _in_ a genjutsu.
> I'm pretty sure that the genjutsu was for hide themselves, while their clones were fighting (the most probable option, since according to the databook what Itachi used is a crow bunshin).


Nope, zetsu stated that they haven't even started and that they were merely throwing genjutsu at each other.  




blk said:


> Never said that he was as strong as SM Naruto.
> 
> It's however worth noting that Itachi was able to trade blows with a Sage user.


then that isn't evidence for itachi being above deva path unless you can show some kind of equality to the one their feats were performed against.




blk said:


> Stabbing someone with a black rod that appears from the arms is not something that i would consider as taijutsu, swordsmanship or kenjutsu.


Based on what?



blk said:


> Evidences can differ in quality, and different claims can require a different number of evidences with a different quality.


sure



blk said:


> In other words, Kakashi's feat of dodging Deva's kick is an evidence for itself (i.e for the fact that Kakashi can dodge Deva's kicks in that kind of situations).


nope, by this logic any feat in the manga can't lead one to conclude anything other than what the feat directly shows since it's just evidence for itself, thus even if kakashi traded blows with deva for hours, it's all just evidence that kakashi can dodge, punch or block deva in that kind of situation, it doesn't equate necessarily mean equality in taijutsu.  thus, no conclusion can be made no matter how much evidence or pages there are.



blk said:


> *You'll need more compelling evidences for the claim that Deva and Kakashi are generally equals in taijutsu (or anything similar).*


The bolded is once again merely a baseless assertion.  None of the above 2 points you've made have anything to do with showing that Deva and Kakashi's exchange isn't compelling, it even makes the completely fallacious assumption that feats HAVE TO BE compelling in order for any point to be deemed the most plausible.  

So once again, you saying "you need more compelling evidences for claim X" is merely an assertion, and the underlying assumption that you need compelling evidence in order to make the best possible inference about something in the manga will make arguing about anything in the manga impossible to do. 



blk said:


> *The statement was correct, even though irrelevant.*
> So, if you want to take it as a concession, go ahead.


The bolded is a baseless assertion.  The statements were EXACTLY the same, both were utilizing logic that if character A does better than character B against character C regardless of what abilities character C uses or how abilities match up against each other, then character A would beat Character B.





blk said:


> The way that you label Naruto's chakra arms and the Susano'o ones doesn't change the concept: both didn't used chakra based stuff and thus hold back.


Irrelevant if its chakra-based stuff, susanoo is a ninjutsu, chakra arms are not and naruto incomporates them into his taijutsu, thus the point stands.



blk said:


> About your other points: Shunshin no jutsu is a ninjutsu (not that he could have use it in mid-air and during a CQC exchange)


shunshin no jutsu is part of a person's taijutsu ability, itachi even used shunshin no jutsu in order to get into that position, so unless you want to argue that Itachi has to use ninjutsu in order to keep up with kcm naruto in taijutsu, your point does not stand.



blk said:


> and both attacked and reacted [1].


Nope, that's only happening in CQC after itachi initiated the attack.  Naruto doesn't even chase or initiate anything, he lets itachi run away since he only wants to talk, something that he wouldn't have done if he was actually trying to beat him.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 20, 2013)

Kakashi Is God said:


> You're taking feats completely out of context to suit your argument there, in fairness.


Im all fairness, I am not.




> Firstly Itachi didn't really 'duke it out' with Naruto - it was a scuffle and nothing more with the latter simply wanting to talk. It was a brief skirmish - that's it. If Itachi had lost that exchange then his taijutsu levels would be pretty low as Naruto wasn't serious.


Yes he did. They launched hits @ each other multiple times, blocking and evading them. 
It was short and brief, but it has shown that Itachi can casually dodge someone like B when he has his hands full with a guy of KCM Naruto's caliber.

In fairness, you are _trying_ to take things out of context, by adding up stuff like "Naruto didn't take it seriously." Well, they both seemed to be in a "casual" talking mood. 

But sure, if you have evidence that Naruto somehow made himself slower and less skilled, I'd love to see it.




> Secondly, Sasuke vs Itachi was a genjutsu. I'd like to see evidence that suggests it reflects what would happen in the real world.


We've seen what happened step by step. 
Itachi didn't do anything magical.

You are making the claim that it wasn't a representation of reality. Perhaps you believe Itachi made himself more "skilled"(Lol like it is even possible) in the genjutsu. Or maybe altered his speed.
Anyways, burden is on you. Provide evidence or concede.




> Thirdly, if Itachi "manhandled" Kakashi, then the latter was obviously too fast for Itachi to land a strike on in the second phase of that exchange. I'm sure you don't believe the latter so logically you shouldn't the former. They're tied in together. The sneak attack also worked as well - Kakashi intended to hold on to Itachi and for Naruto to land the killing blow. That's exactly what happened.


Kakashi launched a sneak attack, Itachi casually defended against it and caught him in a headlock.
Clear victor there was Itachi.

Kakashi surely wanted his Kagebunshin to delay Itachi so that Naruto could finish him off. But he didn't want his Kagebunshin to fail his sneak attack and  get caught in a headlock to get genjutsu'd.





> Finally, Pain used ST to block a simple kunai attack (he can't compare either), which I'm fairly sure he could have avoided if needed.


No he couldn't, because he didn't see it coming until it was inches away from his chest. That is why he had to use ST(talking about Kakashi's attack here).



> Him using it again to deal with a sneak attack isn't surprising and not an example of showing how fast Kakashi is, in an attempt to hype up Itachi.


It doesn't show how fast Kakashi is.
It shows that dealing with that kind of a doton concealed sneak attack isn't as easy as Itachi makes it look.
He is Itachi.

Other people have tough time against it.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 20, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Im all fairness, I am not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah...Naruto punches about twice. From that you conclude that in a taijutsu fight to the death, Itachi is equal (if not better) than KCM Naruto?

Also I know it sounds nice and makes your point seem stronger, but just because Naruto was in his KCM form it does not mean he was using anything close to his max speed. In the same way that just because Gai was using his 6th gate (?) and could only match Kakashi's speed vs the Jins, it doesn't mean Kakashi's speed is equal to 6th or 7th gate Gai.



> In fairness, you are _trying_ to take things out of context, by adding up stuff like "Naruto didn't take it seriously." Well, they both seemed to be in a "casual" talking mood.
> 
> But sure, if you have evidence that Naruto somehow made himself slower and less skilled, I'd love to see it.



Naruto was not fighting for the kill at that point - that much is obvious to as all. Mentally, Itachi wasn't either. However unlike Naruto, Itachi wasn't in control. Kabuto forced Itachi to aggressively attack Naruto and Bee.




> We've seen what happened step by step.
> Itachi didn't do anything magical.
> 
> You are making the claim that it wasn't a representation of reality. Perhaps you believe Itachi made himself more "skilled"(Lol like it is even possible) in the genjutsu. Or maybe altered his speed.
> Anyways, burden is on you. Provide evidence or concede.



No, it's you that needs to provide evidence. Genjutsu is NOT reality. We know that as a fact. It plays tricks on the mind. It's not for me to prove that genjutsu shows what would happen in real life, it's up to you to prove that it does.

Itachi was in complete control of Sasuke at that point within the genjutsu. He wanted to make Sasuke feel inferior and helpless and make him believe he was about to lose his eye. 

What we saw was not reality. As an Itachi fan surely you can appreciate how Itachi likes to play around with reality. 




> Kakashi launched a sneak attack, Itachi casually defended against it and caught him in a headlock.
> Clear victor there was Itachi.



This doesn't even deserve a response tbh, but I will. Kakashi's clone, whether he intended to or not, was locked with Itachi. With Naruto there to land a killing blow on both the clone and Itachi, why would Kakashi attempt to do ANYTHING to resist that?

Kakashi had a plan and it worked inch perfectly. For you to turn that around and pretend Kakashi was manhandled in any way, shape or form is laughable.

And by the way, Kakashi had a hold of Itachi as well: Link removed



> Kakashi surely wanted his Kagebunshin to delay Itachi so that Naruto could finish him off. But he didn't want his Kagebunshin to fail his sneak attack and  get caught in a headlock to get genjutsu'd.



Did it look like Kakashi gave a fuck when Itachi used genjutsu? His plan was working. If Kakashi was really trying to avoid being put in the genjutsu he wouldn't have used the clone as Itachi himself claimed he didn't think the genjutsu would normally work.




> No he couldn't, because he didn't see it coming until it was inches away from his chest. That is why he had to use ST(talking about Kakashi's attack here).



So...you think that without S/T, Kakashi had Pain beat with a thrown kunai at that point in time? If so, we'll have to agree to disagree,



> It doesn't show how fast Kakashi is.
> It shows that dealing with that kind of a doton concealed sneak attack isn't as easy as Itachi makes it look.
> He is Itachi.
> 
> Other people have tough time against it.



Yeah...Pain used the same defensive move he used on a kunai. He also used S/T to kill Ma if I recall rightly. He was fast to use Shinra Tensei at all times. He wasn't always forced into using it - he chose too.


----------



## blk (Jun 21, 2013)

ZE said:


> I just told you where to find it. Stop being lazy.



If there is anyone lazy here, is you.
The only one who has to provide evidences is the one who makes the claim.

And by the way, i've already seen the scan that you mentioned.



> Yes it does. Sasuke was weakened when he fought Bee, so his performance shouldn?t be compared to that of an healthy Itachi.



Ok.



> Never happened.
> 
> 
> Is that genjutsu supposed to be relevant to the discussion?



They weren't inside a genjutsu, the illusion was that they were hidden while their copies were fighting (the databook confirms that it was Itachi's crow bunshin).




> Manga calls the black rods a weapon.
> Maneuvering weapons is not genjutsu or ninjutsu. So that leaves only one option: taijutsu.
> 
> This has nothing to do with Itachi and Nagato.
> ...



Ok, let's put it in a simpler way: did Deva fought Kakashi hand-to-hand like he did with Naruto?
If yes, and he did better, please provide evidences.




ueharakk said:


> Nope, zetsu stated that they haven't even started and that they were merely throwing genjutsu at each other.



We don't even know when Zetsu arrived to the place.

But regardless, in order to not contradict nor the manga nor the databook, the only possibility is what i told.



> then that isn't evidence for itachi being above deva path unless you can show some kind of equality to the one their feats were performed against.



Kabuto seemed better than base Naruto at CQC [1]. Not only that, but he beat Tsunade who is, by feats, better than both base Naruto and Deva.

So, Sage Kabuto should be stronger than Deva.



> Based on what?



On those disciplines.



> sure
> 
> 
> nope, by this logic any feat in the manga can't lead one to conclude anything other than what the feat directly shows since it's just evidence for itself, thus even if kakashi traded blows with deva for hours, it's all just evidence that kakashi can dodge, punch or block deva in that kind of situation, it doesn't equate necessarily mean equality in taijutsu.  thus, no conclusion can be made no matter how much evidence or pages there are.
> ...



Go study epistemology and then we'll talk again about this stuff.
At this point i've already shown you few times the problems with your position and why what i do is not fallacious under any meaning of the term; but you have clearly shown no intention to even attempt an understanding, so i won't debate you anymore in the matter (or at least as long as you will retain this absurd position).



> The bolded is a baseless assertion.  The statements were EXACTLY the same, both were utilizing logic that if character A does better than character B against character C regardless of what abilities character C uses or how abilities match up against each other, then character A would beat Character B.



The circumstance were the same, it's not that Itachi countered Bee's style with Susano'o.




> Irrelevant if its chakra-based stuff, susanoo is a ninjutsu, chakra arms are not and naruto incomporates them into his taijutsu, thus the point stands.
> 
> 
> shunshin no jutsu is part of a person's taijutsu ability, itachi even used shunshin no jutsu in order to get into that position, so unless you want to argue that Itachi has to use ninjutsu in order to keep up with kcm naruto in taijutsu, your point does not stand.
> ...



Again, whether you label those as taijutsu or ninjutsu the concept doesn't change: they both limited themselves to hand-to-hand combat. No chakra skills were involved.

How do you know that Itachi used Shunshin? Not that it is important how Itachi reached them, since we are talking about the exchange itself.

Why had Naruto to chase him? For being counter attacked by Nagato and/or Itachi?
There were no reasons for chase and continue the CQC when he saw that he couldn't beat Itachi with that.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 21, 2013)

blk said:


> We don't even know when Zetsu arrived to the place.
> 
> But regardless, in order to not contradict nor the manga nor the databook, the only possibility is what i told.


nope, neither the manga nor databook is contradicted.  The manga made it very clear that everything that happened was in genjutsu.




blk said:


> Kabuto seemed better than base Naruto at CQC [1]. Not only that, but he beat Tsunade who is, by feats, better than both base Naruto and Deva.
> 
> So, Sage Kabuto should be stronger than Deva.


That's base naruto from the beginning of part 2 and a rusty part 1 tsunade, so both are irrelevant.




blk said:


> On those disciplines.


Explain this more.




blk said:


> Go study epistemology and then we'll talk again about this stuff.
> At this point i've already shown you few times the problems with your position and why what i do is not fallacious under any meaning of the term; but you have clearly shown no intention to even attempt an understanding, so i won't debate you anymore in the matter (or at least as long as you will retain this absurd position).


Since you have declined to defend your assertions, then it's a concession on your part as you've spouted assertions that I've requested you back up with evidence or an argument and thus they are baseless assertions.

If you want want to assert that your epistemology or way of ascertaining truth is correct or the best way about doing so, then you have to argue for that.  In no way do I have to accept your subjective epistemology as true.  

At this point in no way shape or form have you ever EVER shown me any problems with my position, surely you've tried to do so, but I have always shown you how your attempts are either disengenuous, attacking a strawman, or lead to fallacious logic alternatively. That's the whole reason why you keep on coping out of our conversations.  On the other hand when your own position is called into question, you merely back out, or assert something is true and back it up with nothing. 

 I've shown you countless times why your view is fallacious: because it allows you, the opposition to determine what is "good evidence" or not, and thus it gives you the power to simply reject any argument you don't like by saying something isn't a good evidence.  And how do you support the assertion that something isn't good evidence?  By merely showing that the evidence doesn't NECESSARILY point towards the conclusion, something that could be said for any argument ever made about the manga.  And then when I call you out on this, you try to have your cake and eat it by claiming that when you mean 'not necessarily' you actually mean 'no correlation at all' yet that's absolutely not the way you use it.  So using your own view, you could even reject things like KCM Naruto is faster than konohomaru since nothing that happened in the manga is evidence that KCM Naruto is NECESSARILY faster than Konohomaru, thus you'd just pick at whatever evidences are brought to the table, show that they aren't necessarily true by proposing an alternative 'possible' but 'highly implausible' argument, and then say that the evidence isn't 'good evidence.'




blk said:


> *The circumstance were the same,* it's not that Itachi countered Bee's style with Susano'o.


Bolded is simply an assertion, itachi not using susanoo to counter in no way shape or form means the circumstances are the same.



blk said:


> Again, whether you label those as taijutsu or ninjutsu the concept doesn't change: they both limited themselves to hand-to-hand combat. No chakra skills were involved.


Irrelevant if its chakra skills or not as every thing a shinobi does, even movement requires chakra.



blk said:


> How do you know that Itachi used Shunshin? Not that it is important how Itachi reached them, since we are talking about the exchange itself.


Itachi appeared above naruto and bee without bee noticing, shinobi move at their top speed via shunshin.  Itachi's whole positioning during the exchange is due to his shunshin, so it obviously is relevant to the exchange itself.



blk said:


> Why had Naruto to chase him? For being counter attacked by Nagato and/or Itachi?
> There were no reasons for chase and continue the CQC when he saw that he couldn't beat Itachi with that.


In no way did Naruto conclude that he couldn't beat itachi in that especially when it was itachi who was running away.  If Naruto was serious and wanted to beat itachi, he's not only faster, but could have chased and followed up with anything even ninjutsu, nagato hadn't done any attacking on his part yet.


----------



## blk (Jun 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> nope, neither the manga nor databook is contradicted.  The manga made it very clear that everything that happened was in genjutsu.



With this view the databook will be contradicted, since according to it the first Itachi (the one stabbed after the chidori) was a crow bunshin.



> That's base naruto from the beginning of part 2 and a rusty part 1 tsunade, so both are irrelevant.



A rusty Tsunade? She was as skilled as always as far as we know.
How do you know that base Naruto improved in CQC afterwards?



> Explain this more.



It's pretty simple: none of those arts include a move similar to what Deva did (making a piercing stuff come out of the arms).




> Since you have declined to defend your assertions, then it's a concession on your part as you've spouted assertions that I've requested you back up with evidence or an argument and thus they are baseless assertions.
> 
> If you want want to assert that your epistemology or way of ascertaining truth is correct or the best way about doing so, then you have to argue for that.  In no way do I have to accept your subjective epistemology as true.
> 
> At this point in no way shape or form have you ever EVER shown me any problems with my position, surely you've tried to do so, but I have always shown you how your attempts are either disengenuous, attacking a strawman, or lead to fallacious logic alternatively. That's the whole reason why you keep on coping out of our conversations.  On the other hand when your own position is called into question, you merely back out, or assert something is true and back it up with nothing.



Nope.
When i come out of discussions without stating that i concede, it's because i've lost motivation and don't want to continue (sometimes even because i don't have the time to reply).



> I've shown you countless times why your view is fallacious: because it allows you, the opposition to determine what is "good evidence" or not, and thus it gives you the power to simply reject any argument you don't like by saying something isn't a good evidence.  And how do you support the assertion that something isn't good evidence?  By merely showing that the evidence doesn't NECESSARILY point towards the conclusion, something that could be said for any argument ever made about the manga.  And then when I call you out on this, you try to have your cake and eat it by claiming that when you mean 'not necessarily' you actually mean 'no correlation at all' yet that's absolutely not the way you use it.  So using your own view, you could even reject things like KCM Naruto is faster than konohomaru since nothing that happened in the manga is evidence that KCM Naruto is NECESSARILY faster than Konohomaru, thus you'd just pick at whatever evidences are brought to the table, show that they aren't necessarily true by proposing an alternative 'possible' but 'highly implausible' argument, and then say that the evidence isn't 'good evidence.'
> 
> Man I would LOVE to debate you on just our epistemology, because I know that your falls flat on its face and would make nothing in the manga debatable.  And at the same time I'd show you how my own not only allows you to have discussion, but also provides checks that keep both sides of the debate honest.



Don't you realize that you are also determining what is a "good evidence"? For you, any indication whatsoever that might support a belief renders the belief justified. But who established this? You.




> Bolded is simply an assertion, itachi not using susanoo to counter in no way shape or form means the circumstances are the same.



Susano'o was just an example, the point is that both have faced Bee's style with weapons in CQC, therefore the two performances can be compared.



> Irrelevant if its chakra skills or not as every thing a shinobi does, even movement requires chakra.
> 
> 
> Itachi appeared above naruto and bee without bee noticing, shinobi move at their top speed via shunshin.  Itachi's whole positioning during the exchange is due to his shunshin, so it obviously is relevant to the exchange itself.
> ...



Yeah, and both of them fought hand-to-hand in a standard fashion, so the chakra usage was almost equal.

Itachi appeared above them without that they could notice because he was hidden, the one with Nagato was a bunshin.

Itachi ran away because Bee and Naruto surrounded him, not because any of them alone was too much to handle.
How do you know that if Naruto chased him with ninjutsu, he wouldn't have suddenly activated Susano'o and crush him? Or that Nagato wouldn't ST him away?


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 21, 2013)

blk said:


> With this view the databook will be contradicted, since according to it the first Itachi (the one stabbed after the chidori) was a crow bunshin.


why does that contradict anything?  Does the databook say that one can't make bunshins can't exist in a genjutsu?  Did shouten itachi not make crow bunshins after he caught Naruto in genjutsu?




blk said:


> A rusty Tsunade? *She was as skilled as always as far as we know.*


Bolded is an assertion, back up your assertion with an argument.  Tsunade is rusty in everything which is why she punches way harder in part 2, has way better speed feats, and in part 1 she goes old after getting sliced and stabbed a few times while in part 2, she goes old after protecting the entire village from chibaku tensei and getting hacked by madara's clones for hours.



blk said:


> How do you know that base Naruto improved in CQC afterwards?


Based on his feats against deva, his feats compared to Sai and Sakura, physically restraining kakashi, the fact he can keep up with Sasuke's speed and save sakura from him mid-kunai stab, and the fact that he trained in frog fu.

Now what evidence do you have that naruto DIDN'T improve in CQC.




blk said:


> It's pretty simple: none of those arts include a move similar to what Deva did (making a piercing stuff come out of the arms).


That's once again merely an assertion, back up that assertion with evidence.




blk said:


> Nope.
> When i come out of discussions without stating that i concede, it's because i've lost motivation and don't want to continue (sometimes even because i don't have the time to reply).


If that's the case, then it's an 'agree to disagree case' however you have not done it here, instead you simply said the equivalent of the kindergarden-level line: "come back to me after you read the manga" and posed no counterargument.




blk said:


> Don't you realize that you are also determining what is a "good evidence"? For you, any indication whatsoever that might support a belief renders the belief justified. But who established this? You.


  

This is just sad blk, this clearly shows that you either have never read my reasoning, or are just flat out trying to attack strawmen.  In no way do I say that any indication whatsoever that might support a belief render the belief justified.  I compare whatever arguments FOR the belief to the arguments AGAINST the belief and see which of those arguments caters to the least amount of assumptions or is more plausible than the other in order to find the BEST EXPLANATION OF THE EVIDENCE.  So no, the only subjectivity of my criteria is when both sides are hashed out into their underlying assumptions and then it's the plausibility of the assumptions for vs assumptions against that are compared.  The only time my arguments cater to any subjectivity is when the hashed out basic assertions have to be compared to each other, and its then where the integrity/honesty checks come in since its easy to see who's being biased based on the assumptions that have to be accepted as true.

So now that I've explained my reasoning for the 1,000,000th time to you, I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to attack a strawman and start attacking the actual reasoning.




blk said:


> Susano'o was just an example, the point is that both have faced Bee's style with weapons in CQC, therefore the two performances can be compared.


Was Itachi still recovering from his fight with itachi when he fought bee?
Did Itachi try to attack bee while he used his seven swords?



blk said:


> Yeah, and both of them fought hand-to-hand in a standard fashion, so the chakra usage was almost equal.


irrelevant, you tried to say anything chakra related isn't taijutsu which is falsified by everything using chakra.



blk said:


> Itachi appeared above them without that they could notice because he was hidden, the one with Nagato was a bunshin.


I don't see how any of this contradicts him using shunshin to get there.



blk said:


> Itachi ran away because Bee and Naruto surrounded him, not because any of them alone was too much to handle.


How do you know this?



blk said:


> How do you know that if Naruto chased him with ninjutsu, he wouldn't have suddenly activated Susano'o and crush him?


How do you know that if Naruto chased him with ninjutsu, he would have suddenly activated susanoo and crushed him?



blk said:


> Or that Nagato wouldn't ST him away?


Because naruto only figured out Nagato could use all of peins techniques 2 chapters later.


----------



## Drake (Jun 21, 2013)

Itachi has the best taijutsu ability out of the three, but I would say that Sasuke and Naruto win here. Naruto is pretty decent at taijutsu, but he has no Sharingan so he is at a significant disadvantage. The real fight here is Sasuke versus Itachi. Data book stats are irrelevant here, but I would still say that Itachi has the advantage. Sasuke has not been shown performing many taijutsu feats, so it would be safe to assume that he progressed slightly, but not by much. Even though Itachi is better than both of them, I still think that fighting the two of them would be overwhelming. Itachi has to focus all of his attention on Sasuke, and the small extra boost Naruto provides wins this fight. Naruto and Sasuke win 70% of the time.


----------



## Larcher (Jun 21, 2013)

Naruto and Sasuke i guess


----------



## blk (Jun 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> why does that contradict anything?  Does the databook say that one can't make bunshins can't exist in a genjutsu?  Did shouten itachi not make crow bunshins after he caught Naruto in genjutsu?



You have a point, but there are two problems:

- the action was smooth all the time, there was never a point where the "genjutsu world" where they were fighting was broke (like it happened after the Tsukuyomi);

- the "genjutsu" and true Itachi where there at the same time [1], which means that they were not inside a genjutsu (rather, the genjutsu was that he was hidden by the mirage).





> Bolded is an assertion, back up your assertion with an argument.  Tsunade is rusty in everything which is why she punches way harder in part 2, has way better speed feats, and in part 1 she goes old after getting sliced and stabbed a few times while in part 2, she goes old after protecting the entire village from chibaku tensei and getting hacked by madara's clones for hours.
> 
> 
> Based on his feats against deva, his feats compared to Sai and Sakura, physically restraining kakashi, the fact he can keep up with Sasuke's speed and save sakura from him mid-kunai stab, and the fact that he trained in frog fu.
> ...



Tsunade was able to do that merely because she started to store chakra in her forehead, and thus had more chakra reserves.
However, her strength was still insane and her speed isn't anymore impressive these days. Lastly, pure taijutsu skill doesn't increase with chakra.

His feats compared to Sai and Sakura? What do you mean?

Sasuke was extremely weakened and almost blind, it's only natural that Naruto with a Shunshin could stop him.
This says nothing about his standard speed, however.

You cannot ask justification for a position of skepticism, it is not how it works.



> That's once again merely an assertion, back up that assertion with evidence.



I'm not sure what to say here.
Do you think that people who practice swordmanship or kenjutsu put blades inside their body for, somehow, pull them out during fights (which are not to the death)?




> If that's the case, then it's an 'agree to disagree case' however you have not done it here, instead you simply said the equivalent of the kindergarden-level line: "come back to me after you read the manga" and posed no counterargument.



Yeah, and it would be better if you would have done what i suggested.



> This is just sad blk, this clearly shows that you either have never read my reasoning, or are just flat out trying to attack strawmen.  In no way do I say that any indication whatsoever that might support a belief render the belief justified.  I compare whatever arguments FOR the belief to the arguments AGAINST the belief and see which of those arguments caters to the least amount of assumptions or is more plausible than the other in order to find the BEST EXPLANATION OF THE EVIDENCE.  So no, the only subjectivity of my criteria is when both sides are hashed out into their underlying assumptions and then it's the plausibility of the assumptions for vs assumptions against that are compared.  The only time my arguments cater to any subjectivity is when the hashed out basic assertions have to be compared to each other, and its then where the integrity/honesty checks come in since its easy to see who's being biased based on the assumptions that have to be accepted as true.
> 
> So now that I've explained my reasoning for the 1,000,000th time to you, I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to attack a strawman and start attacking the actual reasoning.



So, you are telling me that your reasoning doesn't entails justification? If that's the case, we might outright stop debating since the only beliefs that possess compelling power are the justified ones.

Also, it seems like you cannot conceive that people might have a position of skepticism, which is not a factual claim that requires justification or assumptions. It is a position that is neither for nor against a belief.

The only fact that you need assumptions for making evidences to support a certain argument, means that those don't support that argument on their own, which means that those are maybe not even evidences for it.

Lastly, certain assumptions can be more probable than others, but they are still assumptions, which means that they have no compelling power; therefore, no one will ever have to accept your assumptions as true.
It is absurd to even propose that assumptions must be considered true if they are simply more probable than others.



> Was Itachi still recovering from his fight with itachi when he fought bee?
> Did Itachi try to attack bee while he used his seven swords?



I already know that Sasuke was weakened.

My objection was towards your analogy, where the differences were far far more pronounced than the Bee vs Itachi and Bee vs Sasuke comparison.



> irrelevant, you tried to say anything chakra related isn't taijutsu which is falsified by everything using chakra.
> 
> 
> I don't see how any of this contradicts him using shunshin to get there.
> ...



And i was wrong, so i changed position.
What is of importance is that both limited themselves to pure taijutsu, neither did anything more than that.

I merely stated another possibility for why Itachi came out without that they could notice.

I guessed that it was the reason for why he fled away. I mean, he could have done it even for the sake of it, but i think that the above is more likely.

You don't think that Naruto might suspect that Nagato was capable of something? Remember that he saw him resurrecting an entire village and knew that the one who gave the power to the Pain Rikudo was Nagato himself.
But then again, Itachi could have defend himself even if Naruto chased him, so who cares.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 22, 2013)

Kakashi Is God said:


> Yeah...Naruto punches about twice. From that you conclude that in a taijutsu fight to the death, Itachi is equal (if not better) than KCM Naruto?


Superior I'd say because Naruto was being pushed back.




> Also I know it sounds nice and makes your point seem stronger, but just because Naruto was in his KCM form it does not mean he was using anything close to his max speed. In the same way that just because Gai was using his 6th gate (?) and could only match Kakashi's speed vs the Jins, it doesn't mean Kakashi's speed is equal to 6th or 7th gate Gai.


Naruto wasn't using his bijuu shunshin, which shouldn't be applicable in a very close taijutsu struggle anyways.
But he was using his casual KCM speed, whatever that is. KCM amps his reaction speed to ridicilous levels. 




> Naruto was not fighting for the kill at that point - that much is obvious to as all. Mentally, Itachi wasn't either. However unlike Naruto, Itachi wasn't in control. Kabuto forced Itachi to aggressively attack Naruto and Bee.


Itachi was using taijutsu only, not even a kunai. That is not a "kill mindset". 
They were on the same boat, casually talking and lite fighting via taijutsu.
It was like sparring.

Fighting Naruto in taijutsu isn't the impressive aspect of that ecnounter though.
The impressive bit is *casually* dodging B(while he is blindsiding) and moving back 5 - 8 meters before B could recover from his swing.




> No, it's you that needs to provide evidence. Genjutsu is NOT reality. We know that as a fact. It plays tricks on the mind. It's not for me to prove that genjutsu shows what would happen in real life, it's up to you to prove that it does.


Again that is a Bs claim.

Your claim is that Itachi used some sort of trickery in that encounter.
Burden is on you. Provide evidence, whatever is it you think Itachi did to trick Sasuke, and I'll concede.

We know for a fact that sharingan users can cast genjutsu no different than reality, and unless something magical happens, it stays that way.

Also Itachi was testing Sasuke in that fight. What would be the meaning of it, If he was altering stuff and turning fights into his favor with trickery ? 


But anyways, I don't need to explain common sense to you. You know better. And as someone who knows better, you should provide your evidence.





> Itachi was in complete control of Sasuke at that point within the genjutsu. He wanted to make Sasuke feel inferior and helpless and make him believe he was about to lose his eye.



So you are saying that Itachi somehow made Sasuke less skilled ? Or slower ? 

Thats fine. But evidence ?




> What we saw was not reality. As an Itachi fan surely you can appreciate how Itachi likes to play around with reality.


As an Itachi fan, I know how he can create a new reality. I don't remember him altering reality much, except when he used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi, or when he used the genjutsu on Kakashi's clone where he had absolute control or when he manipulated Deidara inside the genjutsu within the boundaries of reality.




> This doesn't even deserve a response tbh, but I will. Kakashi's clone, whether he intended to or not, was locked with Itachi. With Naruto there to land a killing blow on both the clone and Itachi, why would Kakashi attempt to do ANYTHING to resist that?


Well then you shouldn't have responded to it.

Correction : Itachi locked him and casted a genjutsu on him. 
Which was something Kakashi wasn't expecting given his initial surprise.

Kakashi and Naruto might have won in the long term, but just focusing on that pure taijutsu aspect of the fight, Kakashi was manhandled pretty casually.




> Kakashi had a plan and it worked inch perfectly. For you to turn that around and pretend Kakashi was manhandled in any way, shape or form is laughable.
> 
> And by the way, Kakashi had a hold of Itachi as well: Next panel



What is laughable is completely ignoring how Kakashi's sneak attack failed and got himself under a headlock, and just focusing what happened afterwards.

Yes, Kakashi grabbed Itachi after Itachi's work was done on him.



> Did it look like Kakashi gave a fuck when Itachi used genjutsu? His plan was working. If Kakashi was really trying to avoid being put in the genjutsu he wouldn't have used the clone as Itachi himself claimed he didn't think the genjutsu would normally work.



Kakashi's clone was avoiding eye contact regarldess, and Itachi forced him to look himself in the eye.

Kakashi's clone didn't care about the genjutsu, because it is a clone. Clones don't give a darn even if they jump on a sword because they are clones. 

But he was clearly surprised when Itachi grabbed his neck and forced eye contact.






> So...you think that without S/T, Kakashi had Pain beat with a thrown kunai at that point in time? If so, we'll have to agree to disagree,


Who knows. But Kakashi threw that kunai right after Akimichis threw theirs, so it was supposed to catch him off guard.




> Yeah...Pain used the same defensive move he used on a kunai. He also used S/T to kill Ma if I recall rightly. He was fast to use Shinra Tensei at all times. He wasn't always forced into using it - he chose too.



A thrown Kunai is not the same as a shinobi attacking through a doton concealment. Compare the two instances and you'll see the difference in Pain's reaction.

He seems completely helpless here : Link removed
And the tip of the kunai is literally a milimeter away from his chest.

So no, I don't think he would be able to move out of  the way or do anything about it if he wanted to.


----------



## ShadowReaper (Jun 22, 2013)

Itachi wins... He was able to hold on his own against Naruto in RM and base Naruto's taijutsu skills are not that impressive. Sasuke with regular Sharingan may possibly have better taijutsu than Naruto, but it won't still be sufficient and he was outmatched in close combat by Itachi, the last time they fought.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 22, 2013)

blk said:


> You have a point, but there are two problems:
> 
> - the action was smooth all the time, there was never a point where the "genjutsu world" where they were fighting was broke (like it happened after the Tsukuyomi);


I have no idea what you are talking about.  If they were in genjutsu from the very start of their fight, why would there be a break to show when they entered the genjutsu?



blk said:


> - the "genjutsu" and true Itachi where there at the same time [1], which means that they were not inside a genjutsu (rather, the genjutsu was that he was hidden by the mirage).


That's not even the true itachi, that's also just a genjutsu.  Everything up until this panel is genjutsu.






blk said:


> *Tsunade was able to do that merely because she started to store chakra in her forehead, and thus had more chakra reserves.*
> However, her strength was still insane and her speed isn't anymore impressive these days. Lastly, pure taijutsu skill doesn't increase with chakra.


Bolded is false as tsunade had been constantly storing chakra in her forehead seal for years yet still turned old after not even using byakugo.  Her strength is far more impressive these days, she cracked susanoo with a punch and her hits are arguably a level beyond V2 Ei's own, yet in part 1 Orochimaru gets punched right in the face and receives just as much damage as he takes from KN1 Naruto's initial blitz.  Her speed has also increased to the point where she can block madara's katons before mei can even weave the seals to perform a suiton, and she can survive against 5 lvl3 susanoos with just taijutsu and byakugo.



blk said:


> His feats compared to Sai and Sakura? What do you mean?


Sai is portrayed as stronger than base naruto at the start of part 2. at the worst he'd be naruto's physical equal.  However when they fight karui and darui, both naruto's reactions and speed are significantly above sai.



blk said:


> Sasuke was extremely weakened and almost blind, it's only natural that *Naruto with a Shunshin could stop him.*
> This says nothing about his standard speed, however.


Nope, Sasuke was almost blind, but that has nothing to do with his speed or reactions.  Sasuke had a whole chapter to of rest and dialogue after cancelling his susanoo.  Bolded is downplay at its finest as naruto not only stopped Sasuke, but he did it before kakashi could react, and did it before sasuke could complete a kunai swing.



blk said:


> You cannot ask justification for a position of skepticism, it is not how it works.


Nope, your position of skepticism is just the negative of my argument: that naruto didn't improve his CQC ability.  If you believe that that is true, then you have to support your position with an argument, else your position is baseless and thus holds no water.




blk said:


> I'm not sure what to say here.
> Do you think that people who practice swordmanship or kenjutsu put blades inside their body for, somehow, pull them out during fights (which are not to the death)?


Irrelevant, I'm taking a position of skepticism remember?  According to your logic, I don't have to justify my own position of skepticism, its you who has the burden of proof to support your own.




blk said:


> Yeah, and it would be better if you would have done what i suggested.


It would have been better if you just responded to my arguments.



blk said:


> So, you are telling me that your reasoning doesn't entails justification? If that's the case, we might outright stop debating* since the only beliefs that possess compelling power are the justified ones.*


My reasoning does entail justification, the justification comes at the very end after you've broken down the arguments into their basic assumptions.  The argument that caters to the least supported assumptions is the justified one.

The bolded is flat out false, a belief doesn't have to be compelling in order to be justified, it could simply be convincing, or the most plausible/best explanation of the evidence.  



blk said:


> Also, it seems like you cannot conceive that people might have a position of skepticism, which is not a factual claim that requires justification or assumptions. It is a position that is neither for nor against a belief.


Sure, but that only applies to assertions that have no evidences or arguments for them.  The position of skepticism is only there to protect the person not making the initial assertion from the logic of "you have to prove the negative, else the positive is true".  Once a positive argument is made for the positive premise, then unless you erect an argument for the negative, the positive is more supported than the negative no matter how compelling or convincing you think the positive argument is.  



blk said:


> The only fact that you need assumptions for making evidences to support a certain argument, means that those don't support that argument on their own, which means that those are maybe not even evidences for it.


  

Argument: KCM Naruto is faster than Konohomaru.  
Evidence: 
- KCM Naruto dodged Ei's V2 punch at one or two inches away
- Ei calls himself the fastest shinobi alive
- KCM Naruto dodges Ei just like Minato did
- KCM Naruto moves so fast, he looks like Minato when he shunshins

Assumptions: 
- Ei isn't lieing about being the fastest shinobi alive
- Konohomaru is included in the speed comparison of Ei to all the shinobi in the world
- Konohomaru hasn't increased his speed offpanel without anyone knowing
- KCM Naruto being called "the yellow flash" when he shunshins isn't just an asthetic statement
- KCM Naruto dodging Minato like Ei did is an author's intent parallel 
- The gravity and air resistance didn't change when naruto activated his shunshin
- A wormhole didn't randomly open up between naruto and ei's fist allowing naruto to dodge the attack
- Konohomaru wasn't holding back his speed throughout the entire manga

As ridiculous as some of them seem all of these are merely assumptions that we must  hold to be true in order for KCM Naruto to indeed be faster than Konohomaru.  Does that mean that since KCM Naruto being faster than Konohomaru is supported by basic assumptions, that those evidences don't support the argument on their own? And that KCM Naruto isn't faster than Konohomaru?  Because that's what your argumentation allow the opposition to do.  They just have to point out that none of the evidences are necessarily true by positing an unfalsifiable alternative, then take the position of skepticism.  And they can do this even for the underlying assumptions that I've given, they'd just have to posit unfalsifiable (yet ridiculous) alternative.



blk said:


> Lastly, certain assumptions can be more probable than others, but they are still assumptions, which means that they have no compelling power; *therefore, no one will ever have to accept your assumptions as true.
> It is absurd to even propose that assumptions must be considered true if they are simply more probable than others*.


Lol this shows just how ignorant you and your stance are.  

Pretty much very single argument you have ever made on NF is supported by assumptions, no matter how supported you may think those assumptions, or how ridiculous you think the alternative assumptions are, they are assumptions as you can't prove them and must just assume they are true in order for your own stance to work.

And the bolded, oh my freekin goodness the bolded.  blk, read, please just sit down and READ the things that I type so that you don't have to type things like the bolded.  When have I ever EVER said that someone HAS to accept my assumptions as true or that my assumptions have to be considered true if they are simply more probable than others?  I've never done that and that's because as long as something isn't necessarily true or false, anyone has the right to believe whatever they want to believe, they don't HAVE to accept another argument as true.  If I have a jar of 999 red jelly beans and one blue jelly bean, even if the chances are stacked against the blue, does it mean that the statement "if one jelly bean is pulled from the jar, it will be red" has to be taken as true?  Obviously not, even though the evidence is compelling.  




blk said:


> I already know that Sasuke was weakened.
> 
> *My objection was towards your analogy, where the differences were far far more pronounced than the Bee vs Itachi and Bee vs Sasuke comparison.*


The differences being far more pronounced in my analogy are irrelevant since the point of the analogy was to show that your comparisons were fallacious since you didn't include the feats and factors within the exchange, you were just drawing a generalized A>B>C logic argument.




blk said:


> And i was wrong, so i changed position.
> What is of importance is that both limited themselves to pure taijutsu, neither did anything more than that.


Yet one of them (naruto) limited his taijutsu by not using chakra arms while there's no evidence itachi limited his own.



blk said:


> I merely stated another possibility for why Itachi came out without that they could notice.


Then it's irrelevant to our thread since I could state possibility after possibility for how itachi came out without them noticing.  Simply posing another possibility just means that my argument isn't necessarily true.



blk said:


> I guessed that it was the reason for why he fled away. I mean, he could have done it even for the sake of it, but i think that the above is more likely.






blk said:


> You don't think that Naruto might suspect that Nagato was capable of something? Remember that he saw him resurrecting an entire village and knew that the one who gave the power to the Pain Rikudo was Nagato himself.


So at worst, naruto thought nagato could use Gedo Mazou rinne tensei.  So Naruto was afraid of Nagato resurrecting him to death?



blk said:


> But then again, Itachi could have defend himself even if Naruto chased him, so who cares.


Irrelevant if he could, the point is naruto didn't even attempt to chase whether or not itachi could have defended himself is irrelevant.


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## Rosencrantz (Jun 23, 2013)

Hmm Naruto would need a few Kage Bunshins to deal with the Sharingan and his superior speed/taijutsu 1 on 1. Well this is post wind training Naruto. Current Naruto's speed/taijutsu has likely increased. Kurenai's 4 tier speed/taijutsu was able to deal with Itachi's taijutsu even fresh out of a genjutsu and taken a little by surprise. Post wind training Naruto can very well react to and deal with his taijutsu to some degree since he does not have the genjutsu to break out of. Current Naruto seems to be faster and more skilled though so very well on Kurenai's level or above with 4 in speed/taijutsu or higher. So he should be able to replicate what she did except he has more stamina and strength and won't be coming out of a genjutsu. Deva landed a hit in CQC on Kakashi something even Itachi failed to do. Naruto managed to hold him off even when tired.

Everything points to Naruto just falling back and holding off his taijutsu while Sasuke attacks in his blind spot and uses openings from the rear to his advantage. Sasuke can also use his speed/taijutsu skill to hold off Itachi. Speed gap isn't so big that Sasuke can't deal with it, and the taijutsu gap does not mean that Sasuke can not at least block/dodge some of his attacks like Kurenai did against Itachi. Sasuke can play the same role and fall back as he blocks Itachi's attacks while Naruto attacks from the rear.

Naruto/Sasuke definitely take this with one playing decoy and the other attacking from the rear. Basic but effective. Opponents need to be weaker than Naruto/Sasuke.


*FYI: Itachi and Naruto kicked each other and it was stalemate. Itachi also parried a punch. This is the same KCM Naruto that pushed a bjuu dama and did more damage to Kisame with one hit than 5 tier strength Gai did in one hit. Naruto also timed a punch that moved at the same speed as Killer Bee swinging Samehada down. There are three explanations. Naruto held back significantly against Itachi. Naruto was greatly weakened from 13 Kage Bunshins, traveling all night in KCM mode, training before that, using multiple rasengan variants, chakra arms, and according to Killer Bee he managed to use bjuu dama ONCE during training. Or a combination of both holding back and being weakened.* Naruto's strength and speed were not the same and these are the only feasible options.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 23, 2013)

ShadowReaper said:


> Itachi wins... He was able to hold on his own against Naruto in RM and base Naruto's taijutsu skills are not that impressive. Sasuke with regular Sharingan may possibly have better taijutsu than Naruto, but it won't still be sufficient and he was outmatched in close combat by Itachi, the last time they fought.


Itachi doesn't win. Naruto was holding back while in Kurama Chakra Mode to get info to Itachi about Sasuke and his decisions. Naruto has a decisive speed and strength advantage over Itachi while in Kurama Chakra Mode, enough to push incredibly dense Bijudamas with one arm and is faster than the Raikage, moving as fast as A while holding back-speed Itachi has yet to showcase. And Naruto's taijutsu skills in base have gotten to be really good due to Frog Kata training, with both is speed and strength improving.

Sasuke and Itachi were already equals in taijutsu. The only time Itachi outmatched him was in a genjutsu, where Itachi could be as strong or as fast as he liked due to the nature of the illusion.



ChuckNorris902 said:


> Itachi has the best taijutsu ability out of the three, but I would say that Sasuke and Naruto win here. Naruto is pretty decent at taijutsu, but he has no Sharingan so he is at a significant disadvantage. The real fight here is Sasuke versus Itachi. Data book stats are irrelevant here, but I would still say that Itachi has the advantage. Sasuke has not been shown performing many taijutsu feats, so it would be safe to assume that he progressed slightly, but not by much. Even though Itachi is better than both of them, I still think that fighting the two of them would be overwhelming. Itachi has to focus all of his attention on Sasuke, and the small extra boost Naruto provides wins this fight. Naruto and Sasuke win 70% of the time.


I'd claim Naruto has the best taijutsu of the three. He's actually had a taijutsu style training compared to Itachi and Sasuke who solely rely on their Sharingan. Naruto's consistently improved in speed and strength. Adding Kurama Chakra Mode or Sage Mode just makes it overkill too, due to the tremendous boost of speed and strength + chakra arms in the former, to the again, tremendous strength and speed + Frog Kata in the former.


----------



## blk (Jun 24, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about.  If they were in genjutsu from the very start of their fight, why would there be a break to show when they entered the genjutsu?
> 
> That's not even the true itachi, that's also just a genjutsu.  Everything up until this panel is genjutsu.



What i meant is that something like this [1 ; 2] should have happened if they were inside a genjutsu.

Regarding the other instance, no, it was clearly the true Itachi.
"My Sharingan can see through your genjutsu" [3] and "i've had enough of your charades" [4] are phrases that heavily suggest, along with the situation as a whole, that Sasuke broke the genjutsu of the brother and that the latter was the true one.
Moreover, in the page before the one that you linked (where he is standing) Itachi stands up from his chair.

In addition to the above, let's think about what Zetsu said: they are still throwing genjutsu at each other.
This phrase makes a lot more sense if used for mention mirages and other genjutsu like that, which can be, in a sense, "thrown" at the enemy.
Otherwise, if everything was all a single illusion happening in their mind, what Zetsu said has less sense.

And heck, who would even be the one to control the genjutsu? Because it's not that someone inside a genjutsu can counter it by using others genjutsu on the fake enemy that he sees in his mind.



> Bolded is false as tsunade had been constantly storing chakra in her forehead seal for years yet still turned old after not even using byakugo.  Her strength is far more impressive these days, she cracked susanoo with a punch and her hits are arguably a level beyond V2 Ei's own, yet in part 1 Orochimaru gets punched right in the face and receives just as much damage as he takes from KN1 Naruto's initial blitz.  Her speed has also increased to the point where she can block madara's katons before mei can even weave the seals to perform a suiton, and she can survive against 5 lvl3 susanoos with just taijutsu and byakugo.
> 
> Sai is portrayed as stronger than base naruto at the start of part 2. at the worst he'd be naruto's physical equal.  However when they fight karui and darui, both naruto's reactions and speed are significantly above sai.
> 
> ...



You have a point regarding Tsunade.
Anyway, even if she is now stronger, she was a monster in CQC even when she fought Kabuto.

Not sure when it was portrayed that Sai was stronger than Naruto in taijutsu.
Further, that "significantly" seems an overestimation; it's not that base Naruto can stomp Sai in taijutsu.

The reactions of a person have _everything_ to do with sight and general bodily conditions.
A whole chapter usually corresponds to minutes, to think that he could recover in such a short time is absurd (considering the recovery that he needed after his previous battles).

A position of skepticism can't be a negative by definition. 
Anyway, to be honest, i don't really have any problem at accepting the notion that base Naruto might have improved a bit in CQC. 



> Irrelevant, I'm taking a position of skepticism remember?  According to your logic, I don't have to justify my own position of skepticism, its you who has the burden of proof to support your own.



It's not by my logic, it's how a position of skepticism works.

And the question was basically rethorical: putting blades inside the body of a person would kill him, so it can't be a tecnique of swordmanship, kenjutsu or taijutsu.




> My reasoning does entail justification, the justification comes at the very end after you've broken down the arguments into their basic assumptions.  The argument that caters to the least supported assumptions is the justified one.
> 
> The bolded is flat out false, a belief doesn't have to be compelling in order to be justified, it could simply be convincing, or the most plausible/best explanation of the evidence.



The argument with the least supported assumptions is the justified one? 
Does it even make sense to talk about support in regard to assumptions?

Oh, and you misinterpreted me greatly: i didn't said that a belief has to be compelling in order to be justified, but that it has to be justified for be compelling.




> Sure, but that only applies to assertions that have no evidences or arguments for them.  The position of skepticism is only there to protect the person not making the initial assertion from the logic of "you have to prove the negative, else the positive is true".  Once a positive argument is made for the positive premise, then unless you erect an argument for the negative, the positive is more supported than the negative no matter how compelling or convincing you think the positive argument is.



Depends to what extent an argument is supported.
One can't ask for evidences for the negative of a certain argument if it is, let's say, just 1% more probable than the alternatives; there will never be a point where all the positions are exactly as probable as the alternatives, therefore a degree of support that a belief needs in order to render it justified must be established.
After that the degree of support is reached, the opposition will have to do what you said.




> Argument: KCM Naruto is faster than Konohomaru.
> Evidence:
> - KCM Naruto dodged Ei's V2 punch at one or two inches away
> - Ei calls himself the fastest shinobi alive
> ...



There is no need for any of those assumptions if you start thinking in terms of _probability_.
Given the evidences that we have, it is more probable that Naruto is faster than Konohamaru. And since the evidences support such belief to a significant enough degree, it is justified.
Therefore, that Naruto is faster than Konohamaru is the _more justified belief_.

With the informations avaible _it is true_ that it is more likely that Naruto is faster than Konohamaru, and _this claim doesn't require your assumptions_.
Unless evidences are found for those assumptions, the above will remain the most probable and most justified belief in the matter; and that's all we need.

The problems that you mention arise only if you reason in terms of absolutes.




> The only time my arguments cater to any subjectivity is when the hashed out basic assertions have to be compared to each other, and its then where the integrity/honesty checks come in since* its easy to see who's being biased based on the assumptions that have to be accepted as true.*



Bold part.



> Yet one of them (naruto) limited his taijutsu by not using chakra arms while there's no evidence itachi limited his own.
> 
> Then it's irrelevant to our thread since I could state possibility after possibility for how itachi came out without them noticing.  Simply posing another possibility just means that my argument isn't necessarily true.
> 
> Irrelevant if he could, the point is naruto didn't even attempt to chase whether or not itachi could have defended himself is irrelevant.



Again, the label is irrelevant to the concept: a Susano'o arm is not conceptually much different from a Kyuubi's chakra arm.
And actually, chakra arms are not even considered taijutsu but tailed beast skills [5].

You said that Itachi used a Shunshin, which is something that is as supported as my claim (well, less in reality).

And the fact that Naruto didn't chased Itachi is not relevant to their taijutsu exchange.
There are no reasons for talk about it.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 26, 2013)

blk said:


> What i meant is that something like this [1 ; 2] should have happened if they were inside a genjutsu.


Why?  That doesn't always happen when people are put into genjutsu why should the lack of that equate to no genjutsu being used?



blk said:


> Regarding the other instance, no, it was clearly the true Itachi.
> "My Sharingan can see through your genjutsu" [3] and "i've had enough of your charades" [4] are phrases that heavily suggest, along with the situation as a whole, that Sasuke broke the genjutsu of the brother and that the latter was the true one.
> Moreover, in the page before the one that you linked (where he is standing) Itachi stands up from his chair.


Why would any of those quotes heavily suggest that Sasuke broke the genjutsu?  They were throwing genjutsu at each other, thus Sasuke would obviously say that his sharingan sees through itachi's genjutsu yadayada if he is fighting itachi via genjutsu.



blk said:


> In addition to the above, let's think about what Zetsu said: they are still throwing genjutsu at each other.
> This phrase makes a lot more sense if used for mention mirages and other genjutsu like that, which can be, in a sense, "thrown" at the enemy.
> Otherwise, if everything was all a single illusion happening in their mind, what Zetsu said has less sense.


The context of the statement of zetsus was that neither itachi nor sasuke had made a move, they were simply standing there the whole time fighting each other with their genjutsu.  

Even the positioning of sasuke and itachi in the fight means they had to be in genjutsu as Sasuke traveled to the end of the room in order to stab itachi through his chair the first time, and then without moving, he launched his chidori eiso at another itachi who was behind the other one. 



blk said:


> And heck, who would even be the one to control the genjutsu? Because it's not that someone inside a genjutsu can counter it by using others genjutsu on the fake enemy that he sees in his mind.


The reason why you think it doesn't make sense is because you are pressuposing that they are simply generating illusions of themselves in the real world for each other to attack, however that was not the case.  They were fighting in a genjutsu realm that's why the room suddenly increased its dimensions and they could just stand there and look at each other while zetsu wonders what's going on.




blk said:


> You have a point regarding Tsunade.
> Anyway, even if she is now stronger, she was a monster in CQC even when she fought Kabuto.


Since that doesn't address the logic of my post which is that tsunade wasn't anywhere close to her current self, then do you concede that Kabuto's performance against her isn't a genuine comparison between his skill and naruto/devas?



blk said:


> Not sure when it was portrayed that Sai was stronger than Naruto in taijutsu.
> Further, that "significantly" seems an overestimation; it's not that base Naruto can stomp Sai in taijutsu.


maybe when he clashed kunai and sword with naruto and called naruto 'weak'?  Maybe when Naruto and Sai went 2 vs 1 against yamato in a training exercise, Sai tied up Naruto since Naruto would "get in his way" and solod yamato.



blk said:


> The reactions of a person have _everything_ to do with sight and general bodily conditions.
> A whole chapter usually corresponds to minutes, to think that he could recover in such a short time is absurd (considering the recovery that he needed after his previous battles).


Reactions of a person have both a physical realm and mental realm.  Physical reactions depend on the bodily conditions of a person, not mental reactions.  And your argument would only be true if Sasuke took the beatings that he did from his previous battles which would be almost killed by deidara, bee, itachi, the gokage and danzou which is obviously false.  Kakashi didn't even land a solid hit on Sasuke, Sasuke wasn't coughing up blood, didn't collapse on the ground from any exhaustion, and wasn't even huffing and puffing, he merely clutches his eyes in pain and notes that his vision is going bye bye.   So no, unless you want to argue that every time a person uses susanoo or starts to huff and puff, all of their abilities are shot, then it does not follow that sasuke's abilities were affected in any way.



blk said:


> A position of skepticism can't be a negative by definition.
> Anyway, to be honest, i don't really have any problem at accepting the notion that base Naruto might have improved a bit in CQC.


Your position of skepticism becomes a negative if I give a positive argument, and you attack that positive argument.  By attacking an argument, unless you are saying that the argument is completely irrelevant to the assertion it's trying to support (such as 1 + 1 = 2 because purple), then you are tacitly taking a position that the alternative argument (whatever you propose) is true.  If you pose an alternative argument or possibility to explain the evidence, then you are no longer taking a position of skepticism, you are now arguing that your alternative argument is more plausible than my argument.  And thus, you have to support your argument.



blk said:


> It's not by my logic, it's how a position of skepticism works.
> 
> And the question was basically rethorical: putting blades inside the body of a person would kill him, so it can't be a tecnique of swordmanship, kenjutsu or taijutsu.


How is that rhetorical?  why would putting blades inside the body of a person not be a technique of swordsmanship, kenjutsu or taijutsu?





blk said:


> The argument with the least supported assumptions is the justified one?
> Does it even make sense to talk about support in regard to assumptions?


it's simply a typo on my part.  I mean to say the argument with the "least assumptions" is the justified one.
And why would it not make sense to talk about support in regard to assumptions?  Wait, are you saying that assumptions CAN'T be supported?



blk said:


> Oh, and you misinterpreted me greatly: i didn't said that a belief has to be compelling in order to be justified, but that it has to be justified for be compelling.


That's not what your argument entailed at all, your entire argument was about what it takes for a belief to be justified, not what it takes for a belief to be compelling, thus why would you bring up that a belief has to be justified to be compelling in order to show what it takes for a belief to be justified? 

And anyway, this doesn't change anything since your still doing the same thing, defining 'justified' argument based on what you think is 'justified' and thus you are allowed to not even address any argument that you don't like by claiming the argument isn't justified.





blk said:


> Depends to what extent an argument is supported.
> *One can't ask for evidences for the negative of a certain argument if it is, let's say, just 1% more probable than the alternatives;* there will never be a point where all the positions are exactly as probable as the alternatives, therefore a degree of support that a belief needs in order to render it justified must be established.
> After that the degree of support is reached, the opposition will have to do what you said.


Wait a second, what in the world does this have to do with my post that i've responded to? 

The bolded is just plain retarded.  If you already know that the positive argument is more probable than the alternatives by 1%, then why would you ask for evidence of the negatives of the positive argument?  You would only know that the positive argument is 1% more probable than the alternatives AFTER you bring up and support the alternatives.

 In addition to that, unless you can show via probability theory that the positive argument is a numerical low 1% more probable, then you have no idea what percent it really is, it's just based on your own subjective criteria of what is 'low', 'compelling', 'convincing', 'lots of evidence' etc, and thus you can't just wave off the argument because you 'think' it's low because anyone could just claim any argument they don't like is 1% more probable than the alternative and that argument is gone.

Finally, no matter what percentage it's supported by, whether its .00001 or 99, if we have an argument that is the best explanation of the evidence that we have, why should we not go with that argument?  Why should we go with arguments that are lesser supported than that one?  And of course the alternative (super skepticism) you already know where that leads to.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 26, 2013)

blk said:


> There is no need for any of those assumptions if you start thinking in terms of _probability_.
> Given the evidences that we have, it is more probable that Naruto is faster than Konohamaru. And since the evidences support such belief to a significant enough degree, it is justified.
> Therefore, that Naruto is faster than Konohamaru is the _more justified belief_.


First of all, blk, I want you to reread that post you quoted and respond to it again since none of your responses addressed the logic of my post which is that all of those arguments are based on basic assumptions in order to be evidence.  Your exact statement that I responded to is:


blk said:


> The only fact that you need assumptions for making evidences to support a certain argument, means that those don't support that argument on their own, which means that those are maybe not even evidences for it.


Since your response only talks about what we 'should' do or if there is a 'need' for those assumptions or not, then do you concede that yes, all those evidences are based on those underlying assumptions?


blk, please think, I repeat THINK about this before you type, because I don't want to hold your hand through this again and again.  The 'evidence that we have' is only positive evidence if those basic assumptions are held to be true, thus you can't claim 'there's no need for any of those assumptions' since in order to start thinking about how probable the evidences are, you need to assume all of those below.  
And then you do the same thing that falls flat on its face by saying "if the evidences support such belief to a *significant enough degree....*"  Who the heck decides what's significant enough?  You, the opposition?  Why should the opposition, the guys who don't want my argument to be true, get to decide if my evidences support my argument 'significantly enough'?  Please, I'm begging you THINK don't ignore my arguments, don't ignore the shortcomings of your own logic, think about what your logical method allows for don't just ignore it and post the same thing over and over again.



blk said:


> With the informations avaible _it is true_ that it is more likely that Naruto is faster than Konohamaru, and _this claim doesn't require your assumptions_.




Goodness gracious, I know I already told you why this is bad in the above paragraph, but seriously after reading it again, I just can't help but facepalm.  The information available is only positive evidence that Naruto is faster than Konohomaru if those assumptions that i've listed are true, and thus those assumptions are necessary.  Yes NECESSARY in order for Naruto to be faster than Konohomaru to be supported.



blk said:


> Unless evidences are found for those assumptions, the above will remain the most probable and most justified belief in the matter; and that's all we need.


blk.....
.......
.......

think about what you just said.  'Unless evidences are found for those assumptions, the above will remain the most probable'.  So that means that you are asserting a burden of proof on the person who is taking the position of skepticism which is exactly what you are saying in the above paragraphs can't be done.  The skeptic doesn't have to post any positive argument, he just has to assert a burden of proof on the positive by asking them to support their assertion.



blk said:


> The problems that you mention arise only if you reason in terms of absolutes.


no it doesn't, none of those assumptions are even close to being absolutes, there are many many levels of assumptions that need to be true in order for those assumptions that you are deeming 'absolutes' to be true.

but anyways, what is stopping people from going deeper and deeper with requesting reasoning for assumptions?  That's still simply taking the position of skepticism.





blk said:


> Bold part.


what about the bold part?  Do you agree with it?  I'm guessing you do since you would have posted a counter to it if you didn't.




blk said:


> Again, the label is irrelevant to the concept: a Susano'o arm is not conceptually much different from a Kyuubi's chakra arm.
> And actually, chakra arms are not even considered taijutsu but tailed beast skills [5].


Irrelevant if their are similarities, one is taijutsu the other is a ninjutsu, and unless you can show that 'tailed beast skills' are wholely independant from taijutsu like ninjutsu, then it's irrelevant as well.  It's like saying a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't a square.



blk said:


> You said that Itachi used a Shunshin, *which is something that is as supported as my claim (well, less in reality).*



The bolded is simply an assertion, back up your assertion with an argument.  Why is my claim less supported than yours?



blk said:


> And the fact that Naruto didn't chased Itachi is not relevant to their taijutsu exchange.
> There are no reasons for talk about it.


this simply ignores my argument since naruto not chasing itachi is relevant as it would be evidence for the mindset of naruto during the taijutsu exchange being a not serious one or one that wasn't trying to beat itachi.


----------



## blk (Jun 26, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Why?  That doesn't always happen when people are put into genjutsu why should the lack of that equate to no genjutsu being used?
> 
> 
> Why would any of those quotes heavily suggest that Sasuke broke the genjutsu?  They were throwing genjutsu at each other, thus Sasuke would obviously say that his sharingan sees through itachi's genjutsu yadayada if he is fighting itachi via genjutsu.
> ...



Sasuke said what he did because he broke Itachi's genjutsu.
Or are you suggesting that those genjutsu had multiple layers?

Sasuke didn't traveled to the end, because that end was fake (as you can see when the chair disappeared).

Itachi was always sitting in his chair exept from when Sasuke broke the last mirage and the former got up. Exactly after that, we see Zetsu and Itachi being standing.

Before that, there was never a point where Itachi was standing.





> Since that doesn't address the logic of my post which is that tsunade wasn't anywhere close to her current self, then do you concede that Kabuto's performance against her isn't a genuine comparison between his skill and naruto/devas?



Tsunade even in that shape should be stronger than Deva and base Naruto.



> maybe when he clashed kunai and sword with naruto and called naruto 'weak'?  Maybe when Naruto and Sai went 2 vs 1 against yamato in a training exercise, Sai tied up Naruto since Naruto would "get in his way" and solod yamato.



None of those things are a taijutsu fight.



> Reactions of a person have both a physical realm and mental realm.  Physical reactions depend on the bodily conditions of a person, not mental reactions.  And your argument would only be true if Sasuke took the beatings that he did from his previous battles which would be almost killed by deidara, bee, itachi, the gokage and danzou which is obviously false.  Kakashi didn't even land a solid hit on Sasuke, Sasuke wasn't coughing up blood, didn't collapse on the ground from any exhaustion, and wasn't even huffing and puffing, he merely clutches his eyes in pain and notes that his vision is going bye bye.   So no, unless you want to argue that every time a person uses susanoo or starts to huff and puff, all of their abilities are shot, then it does not follow that sasuke's abilities were affected in any way.



Ehm, the brain is physical and its functioning heavily depends on the state of the body as a whole.

Against Itachi, Sasuke didn't receive any significant wound (thanks to Oral Rebith), yet he still wasn't fresh when he fought Bee.

After his battle against Danzo his chakra was clearly low and his eyesight was terrible; therefore he was significantly weakened when Naruto shown up.

If you don't consider this a significant handicap, then you cannot use anymore the "he was weakened" excuse for my point about his perfomance against Bee compared to Itachi's.



> Your position of skepticism becomes a negative if I give a positive argument, and you attack that positive argument.  By attacking an argument, unless you are saying that the argument is completely irrelevant to the assertion it's trying to support (such as 1 + 1 = 2 because purple), then you are tacitly taking a position that the alternative argument (whatever you propose) is true.  If you pose an alternative argument or possibility to explain the evidence, then you are no longer taking a position of skepticism, you are now arguing that your alternative argument is more plausible than my argument.  And thus, you have to support your argument.



Not if the evidences aren't conclusive enough.

Not every degree of support for a claim is enough for rendering it justified.



> How is that rhetorical?  why would putting blades inside the body of a person not be a technique of swordsmanship, kenjutsu or taijutsu?



Because any person who put blades inside his body would die.




> it's simply a typo on my part.  I mean to say the argument with the "least assumptions" is the justified one.
> And why would it not make sense to talk about support in regard to assumptions?  Wait, are you saying that assumptions CAN'T be supported?



How can one establish what's the argument with least assumptions.... if one can simply come up with whatever assumption he wants?

With your reasoning, i can easily say that for your arguments you are assuming a shit tons of things that i can make up on the spot.



> That's not what your argument entailed at all, your entire argument was about what it takes for a belief to be justified, not what it takes for a belief to be compelling, thus why would you bring up that a belief has to be justified to be compelling in order to show what it takes for a belief to be justified?
> 
> And anyway, this doesn't change anything since your still doing the same thing, defining 'justified' argument based on what you think is 'justified' and thus you are allowed to not even address any argument that you don't like by claiming the argument isn't justified.



This is what i said:



> the only beliefs that possess compelling power are the justified ones



Which doesn't mean that a justified belief must be compelling... but exactly the opposite.

You also are just deciding what is justified based on what you think is justified: you think that a justified argument is the one with the least assumptions, while for me it is an argument that goes past a certain degree of support.


As for the rest, the quantity of wrong things that you've wrote is colossal, it would take essays for explaining why without discarding a lot of informations (and so, without letting you come up with others wrong objections); so there you go [].
This will (if you read it of course) clear many of the things that, to you, seem so controversial.
By the way, not all the pages that are in there are relevant to the subject at hand.




> what about the bold part? Do you agree with it? I'm guessing you do since you would have posted a counter to it if you didn't.



The bold says that there are assumptions that have to be accepted, even though you stated that you didn't said it.



> Irrelevant if their are similarities, one is taijutsu the other is a ninjutsu, and unless you can show that 'tailed beast skills' are wholely independant from taijutsu like ninjutsu, then it's irrelevant as well. It's like saying a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't a square.



Would you think so if the chakra arm was labeled as "ninjutsu"?
And also, who ever stated that chakra arms are taijutsu?

Your analogy is terrible, a square and a rectangle are different not because their name is different.
Heck, this analogy actually supports my argument: the name of something doesn't change the thing itself. Even if you call a rectangle "square", it won't be a square.
In the same way, even if you call Susano'o arms a ninjutsu and Bijuu arms a taijutsu, they are still fundamentally the same thing....... and certainly none of them is the same thing as pure hand-to-hand combat.




> The bolded is simply an assertion, back up your assertion with an argument. Why is my claim less supported than yours?



Because we have zero evidences for the claim that Itachi used shunshin, while we see that he used a bunshin and tried a surprise attack.



> this simply ignores my argument since naruto not chasing itachi is relevant as it would be evidence for the mindset of naruto during the taijutsu exchange being a not serious one or one that wasn't trying to beat itachi.



It is evidence that Naruto didn't chased Itachi, not that he held back during the whole exchange.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 26, 2013)

blk said:


> Sasuke said what he did because he broke Itachi's genjutsu.
> Or are you suggesting that those genjutsu had multiple layers?


seeing through genjutsu =/= breaking genjutsu.  



blk said:


> Sasuke didn't traveled to the end, because that end was fake (as you can see when the chair disappeared).
> 
> Itachi was always sitting in his chair exept from when Sasuke broke the last mirage and the former got up. Exactly after that, we see Zetsu and Itachi being standing.
> 
> Before that, there was never a point where Itachi was standing.


based on...  if Sasuke didn't travel to the end
Or Sasuke and itachi fought in the genjutsu world just like Kakashi and Obito fought in the genjutsu world during their last chapter.

Anyways, the bolded can't be true as here's* how far sasuke and his clone* are away from the door, and *this is how far they are away from the door* after the genjutsu stops.

In addition to that, I want to ask you again, why does that exchange show itachi > Sasuke in taijutsu?  Sasuke ended up blitzing itachi with his speed and thus would have killed him.



blk said:


> Tsunade even in that shape should be stronger than Deva and base Naruto.


baseless assertion, support your assertion with an argument.  




blk said:


> None of those things are a taijutsu fight.


  

Reactions and speed boy, reactions and speed are both attributes that affect the ability known as taijutsu.  If you are talking about pure taijutsu skill which is independent of reactions, physical strength, and speed, then sure.



blk said:


> Ehm, the brain is physical and its functioning heavily depends on the state of the body as a whole.


sure but their only a significant difference when the body is at a heavy loss of blood or is damaged so badly that the brain loses oxygen or is directly damaged.



blk said:


> Against Itachi, Sasuke didn't receive any significant wound (thanks to Oral Rebith), yet he still wasn't fresh when he fought Bee.


and?  Sasuke didn't bite karin who fully heals the person's chakra and bodily injuries, and 'not fresh' can refer to a lot of things, not just speed.  In addition to that, if you want to claim that sasuke was significantly weaker when he fought bee, then you can't bring up his performance against seven swords bee vs itachi's.



blk said:


> After his battle against Danzo his chakra was clearly low and his eyesight was terrible; therefore he was significantly weakened when Naruto shown up.


irrelevant as Karin fully healed his chakras and his body before he fought Naruto.



blk said:


> If you don't consider this a significant handicap, then you cannot use anymore the "he was weakened" excuse for my point about his perfomance against Bee compared to Itachi's.


yeah, no.  he was weakened can refer to many things, not just the bodily speed of a person.  




blk said:


> Not if the evidences aren't conclusive enough.
> 
> Not every degree of support for a claim is enough for rendering it justified.


blk, we've been through this already.  If you use that kind of logic, no argument can be justified as the opposition can simply say any argument that they don't like no matter how compelling is "not conclusive enough" and thus reject anything they don't like.  

So unless you think its fair to allow anyone to reject any argument they don't like, then your points do not follow and the position of skepticism is no longer tenable after the positive argument is supported no matter how compelling or convincing you think it is.





blk said:


> Because any person who put blades inside his body would die.


how does that not make it kenjutsu, taijutsu or swordsmanship?





blk said:


> How can one establish what's the argument with least assumptions.... if one can simply come up with whatever assumption he wants?
> 
> *With your reasoning, i can easily say that for your arguments you are assuming a shit tons of things that i can make up on the spot.*


Give me an example about what you are talking about.

And for the bolded, it doesn't matter if you say I'm assuming a lot of things because every argument assumes a lot of things.  What you'd have to do when we get to the basic assumptions is pick a stance about which assumptions you think are the most probable, and it is there that bias can clearly be seen and double standards can be called out.  By breaking the argument down into the basic assumptions, you can peg people with the assumptions that their own arguments have to deem true in order for it to work.  

So simply saying "you're assuming a crapton of things that I can make up on the spot" doesn't mean anything as that's true for any argument and isn't a positive argument for your stance.  You'd have to argue that the assumptions that I'm making are less plausible than the assumptions your own arguments are making.




blk said:


> This is what i said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which doesn't mean that a justified belief must be compelling... but exactly the opposite.


When did you post that? From the last post?  That's definitely not what your arguments entailed.



blk said:


> *You also are just deciding what is justified based on what you think is justified: you think that a justified argument is the one with the least assumptions,* while for me it is an argument that goes past a certain degree of support.


The bolded is in no way shape or form true, and I would appreciate it if you would stop attacking strawmen.

 My arguments don't determine what is 'justified' or not, they don't even delve into the real of justification because by your definition of justification, it's simply a subjective standard of criteria.  So in no way am I in any way deciding anything based on any subjectivity until we get to the underlying basic assumptions that both the positive and negative arguments cater to.  And that's when subjectivity and mentality of 'what i think' comes into play as the underlying assumptions must be deemed necessarily true in order for a certain stance to be the best explanation.  So no, I'm not deciding what is justified or not as I'm not setting any standard of justification, all of the reasoning for my arguments until it gets down to the probability of the basic underlying assumptions have nothing to do with what I subjectively think is justified or not.  

Now the justification of your criteria on the other hand is both completely subjective (as it's based purely on an arbitrary level of what you think is good enough evidence) and completely biased (as the opposition, the one who is arguing AGAINST your proposition is the one who is one who has the power to freely accept or reject your evidence).

Imagine if we used your evidence logic in US court cases.  The prosecutor brings up evidence after evidence that compellingly prove the defendant is guilty.  They could bring up a sworn statement by the defendant that he committed the crime, video footage that he committed the crime, fingerprint evidence, eyewitnesses and all of that, yet by your logic, the defendant can simply say "none of that is good enough evidence" and he'd never ever be prosecuted as there would be no good evidence against him and he wouldn't have a burden of proof to show that he wasn't there.   





blk said:


> As for the rest, the quantity of wrong things that you've wrote is colossal, it would take essays for explaining why without discarding a lot of informations (and so, without letting you come up with others wrong objections); so there you go [].
> This will (if you read it of course) clear many of the things that, to you, seem so controversial.
> By the way, not all the pages that are in there are relevant to the subject at hand.


Posting a link to the homepage of a website and saying "you are wrong, go read this and come back to me" isn't an argument.  If I am wrong, you have a burden of proof to show that I am wrong as anyone can simply do exactly what you've done no matter if they are right or wrong.

Until you do that, then you concede those arguments as what you've done is basically ignore them.





blk said:


> The bold says that there are assumptions that have to be accepted, even though you stated that you didn't said it.


   When did I ever say that there aren't assumptions tht have to be accepted?  That's what I've been arguing this entire time.




blk said:


> Would you think so if the chakra arm was labeled as "ninjutsu"?
> And also, who ever stated that chakra arms are taijutsu?


Sure i would think so if they were labeled as ninjutsu.  And they would be taijutsu by the definition of what taijutsu is.



blk said:


> Your analogy is terrible, a square and a rectangle are different not because their name is different.
> Heck, this analogy actually supports my argument: the name of something doesn't change the thing itself. Even if you call a rectangle "square", it won't be a square.
> In the same way, even if you call Susano'o arms a ninjutsu and Bijuu arms a taijutsu, they are still fundamentally the same thing....... and certainly none of them is the same thing as pure hand-to-hand combat.




Bad.

My analogy of rectangles and squares was clearly in regards to you bringing up that chakra arms are a tailed beast skill, and NOT in regards to comparing susanoo and chakra arms.





blk said:


> *Because we have zero evidences for the claim that Itachi used shunshin*, while we see that he used a bunshin and tried a surprise attack.


bolded is not only an assertion that you'd have to back up with an argument but it's false as I've given you an argument for the claim that itachi used shunshin, the unbolded isn't evidence that Itachi didn't use shunshin.




blk said:


> It is evidence that Naruto didn't chased Itachi, *not that he held back during the whole exchange*.


Once again, the bolded is a baseless assertion and I've given an argument for the negative of the bolded, thus if you want to claim the bolded you have a burden of proof to support it and a burden of proof to attack my own argument.  Else, it's a concession on your part as an argument that isn't backed up by anything is a baseless argument.

So blk, for the last time THINK about your logic, THINK about what your logic would allow any debater to do.  Nah, I'm fairly sure that you already know how terrible your logic is, that's why you refuse to address my own arguments.


----------



## blk (Jun 28, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> seeing through genjutsu =/= breaking genjutsu.
> 
> Or Sasuke and itachi fought in the genjutsu world just like Kakashi and Obito fought in the genjutsu world during their last chapter.
> 
> ...



The "seeing through genjutsu" phrase was said exactly when Sasuke broke the genjutsu, it's very likely that he meant he could break Itachi's genjutsu.

We saw the genjutsu between Obito and Kakashi be broken like every other genjutsu that traps the mind into an illusion.
This didn't happened in the case of Sasuke and Itachi.

Wait, so you agree on the fact that the Itachi who was sitting on the second chair was the real one? If so, you also agree that the fake and the real one where there at the same time, and thus the fake was nothing else than a mirage.

Sasuke hit Itachi off-guard because of the chidori, but if you check their confrontation of before you can see that the latter dominated his brother.



> baseless assertion, support your assertion with an argument.



You mean with an evidence [1].




> Reactions and speed boy, reactions and speed are both attributes that affect the ability known as taijutsu.  If you are talking about pure taijutsu skill which is independent of reactions, physical strength, and speed, then sure.



Of course i meant pure taijutsu, otherwise i wouldn't say that those weren't taijutsu fights.



> sure but their only a significant difference when the body is at a heavy loss of blood or is damaged so badly that the brain loses oxygen or is directly damaged.



Many things can cause the brain to work worse, not necessarily almost fatal loss of blood and wounds.



> and?  Sasuke didn't bite karin who fully heals the person's chakra and bodily injuries, and 'not fresh' can refer to a lot of things, not just speed.  In addition to that, if you want to claim that sasuke was significantly weaker when he fought bee, then you can't bring up his performance against seven swords bee vs itachi's.
> 
> irrelevant as Karin fully healed his chakras and his body before he fought Naruto.
> 
> yeah, no.  he was weakened can refer to many things, not just the bodily speed of a person.



I won't bring up his performance against Bee vs Itachi's if you don't bring up his inability to react to Naruto when he couldn't even react to Sakura [2 ; 3] (if she wouldn't have stopped).

Evidently, Karin didn't/couldn't heal him enough.



> blk, we've been through this already.  If you use that kind of logic, no argument can be justified as the opposition can simply say any argument that they don't like no matter how compelling is "not conclusive enough" and thus reject anything they don't like.
> 
> So unless you think its fair to allow anyone to reject any argument they don't like, then your points do not follow and the position of skepticism is no longer tenable after the positive argument is supported no matter how compelling or convincing you think it is.



Again, a certain degree of support is absolutely necessary in order to make a belief justified.

We just have to establish to what degree a particular belief must be supported for it to being justified.



> how does that not make it kenjutsu, taijutsu or swordsmanship?



Because people can't use that kind of moves, so they can't be part of those arts.

If you think otherwise, please provide evidences that those moves are part of kenjutsu, taijutsu or swordsmanship.




> So simply saying "you're assuming a crapton of things that I can make up on the spot" doesn't mean anything as that's true for any argument and isn't a positive argument for your stance.  You'd have to argue that the assumptions that I'm making are less plausible than the assumptions your own arguments are making.



You have to realize that when talking in terms of probability, those kind of assumptions are not necessary.

If i say that it is 100% true that Naruto is faster than Konohamaru, then yes, i'm assuming that anything else is false.
I would be assuming that a wormhole didn't appeared and moved Naruto, or that a random deity didn't give to Naruto that speed only for that occasion, or whatever.

But if i say that it's far more likely that it was just Naruto's speed, i'm not assuming that those things are false, but only stating that they are less probable; which is true.

And in a sense, your argument doesn't seem that much different from mine.



> When did you post that? From the last post?  That's definitely not what your arguments entailed.



In the first post where i mentioned that only a justified belief has compelling power.
Read more carefully the next time.



> The bolded is in no way shape or form true, and I would appreciate it if you would stop attacking strawmen.
> 
> My arguments don't determine what is 'justified' or not, they don't even delve into the real of justification because by your definition of justification, it's simply a subjective standard of criteria.  So in no way am I in any way deciding anything based on any subjectivity until we get to the underlying basic assumptions that both the positive and negative arguments cater to.  And that's when subjectivity and mentality of 'what i think' comes into play as the underlying assumptions must be deemed necessarily true in order for a certain stance to be the best explanation.  So no, I'm not deciding what is justified or not as I'm not setting any standard of justification, all of the reasoning for my arguments until it gets down to the probability of the basic underlying assumptions have nothing to do with what I subjectively think is justified or not.
> 
> Imagine if we used your evidence logic in US court cases.  The prosecutor brings up evidence after evidence that compellingly prove the defendant is guilty.  They could bring up a sworn statement by the defendant that he committed the crime, video footage that he committed the crime, fingerprint evidence, eyewitnesses and all of that, yet by your logic, the defendant can simply say "none of that is good enough evidence" and he'd never ever be prosecuted as there would be no good evidence against him and he wouldn't have a burden of proof to show that he wasn't there.



You wrote this:



> it's simply a typo on my part.* I mean to say the argument with the "least assumptions" is the justified one*.



So you definetly talked about justification.

And again, if we do not talk about justification then everything is pointless.

Your example of "my logic" is a complete misinterpretation: i never ever stated that i can simply reject any argument regardless of how high is the degree of support that it has.
But what if an argument (or an accusation in this case) becomes justified the moment that it becomes even 0.1% more probable/supported than the alternatives? Should people be arrested only because there is an extremely low probably in more that they might be the ones to have commited a certain crime?
Of course not, and infact that's not what happens (a similar thing applies even for scientific theories).




> Posting a link to the homepage of a website and saying "you are wrong, go read this and come back to me" isn't an argument.  If I am wrong, you have a burden of proof to show that I am wrong as anyone can simply do exactly what you've done no matter if they are right or wrong.
> 
> Until you do that, then you concede those arguments as what you've done is basically ignore them.



If you want to take it as a concession, go ahead.




> When did I ever say that there aren't assumptions tht have to be accepted?  That's what I've been arguing this entire time.



Here:



> When have I ever EVER said that someone HAS to accept my assumptions as true or that my assumptions have to be considered true if they are simply more probable than others?



Which is something that you said after stating this:



> its easy to see who's being biased based on the assumptions that have to be accepted as true.



This seems a contradiction to me.



> Sure i would think so if they were labeled as ninjutsu.  And they would be taijutsu by the definition of what taijutsu is.
> 
> My analogy of rectangles and squares was clearly in regards to you bringing up that chakra arms are a tailed beast skill, and NOT in regards to comparing susanoo and chakra arms.



So, you would consider chakra arms to be something else just because they were labeled differently? I'm not sure how can you not see the problems with this reasoning.
The label doesn't change the nature/essence/whatever of something... infact it doesn't change anything, and the rectangle and square example showed this perfectly.

Anyway, let's change the question: did Itachi or Naruto held back in pure hand-to-hand combat?




> bolded is not only an assertion that you'd have to back up with an argument but it's false as I've given you an argument for the claim that itachi used shunshin, the unbolded isn't evidence that Itachi didn't use shunshin.



Never said that the unbolded is evidence that Itachi didn't used Shunshin.

An argument isn't an evidence, so please provide one.



> Once again, the bolded is a baseless assertion and I've given an argument for the negative of the bolded, thus if you want to claim the bolded you have a burden of proof to support it and a burden of proof to attack my own argument.  Else, it's a concession on your part as an argument that isn't backed up by anything is a baseless argument.



What argument? I don't care about your baseless statements that you call arguments, i care about evidences.

The fact that Naruto didn't chased Itachi is evidence that Naruto didn't chased Itachi, unless you can provide evidences for another interpretation, this will remain the more probable.


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## GKY (Jun 29, 2013)

Itachi isn't so vastly superior to either of these 2 that he can beat them together. He'll probably win a few exchanges with the 2, but eventually find himself in a full nelson from one while the other beats him to death.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 29, 2013)

GKY said:


> Itachi isn't so vastly superior to either of these 2 that he can beat them together. He'll probably win a few exchanges with the 2, but eventually find himself in a full nelson from one while the other beats him to death.


No, he's not. Naruto is his superior in taijutsu skill, and Sasuke equaled him. Itachi isn't a taijutsu god.


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## ueharakk (Jun 30, 2013)

blk said:


> The "seeing through genjutsu" phrase was said exactly when Sasuke broke the genjutsu, it's very likely that he meant he could break Itachi's genjutsu.


nope, sharingan sees through ALL genjutsu, that does not mean that seeing through it means you break it.



blk said:


> We saw the genjutsu between Obito and Kakashi be broken like every other genjutsu that traps the mind into an illusion.
> This didn't happened in the case of Sasuke and Itachi.


The genjutsu between obito and kakashi wasn't broken, they simply stopped fighting in genjutsu.  Kishi deciding to not give the same asthetic appearance to itachi and sasuke's genjutsu fight is irrelevant.



blk said:


> Wait, so you agree on the fact that the Itachi who was sitting on the second chair was the real one? If so, you also agree that the fake and the real one where there at the same time, and thus the fake was nothing else than a mirage.


Irrelevant, address the point because regardless if that itachi was the real or a genjutsu, the whole taijutsu exchange that you've used as evidence for your argument had to 



blk said:


> Sasuke hit Itachi off-guard because of the chidori, but if you check their confrontation of before you can see that the latter dominated his brother.


Itachi was simply jumped over chidori and while facing sasuke and was blitzed by his sword stab.  It's a legit shunshin blitz on sasuke's part as itachi couldn't even guard against sasuke's speed with a kunai.




blk said:


> You mean with an evidence [1].


Oh so tsunade is PHYSICALLY stronger than Deva and Naruto?  Sure.  But she's also physically stronger than kabuto.  Your argument was that kabuto > Deva and Naruto in taijutsu since he could tango with tsunade in taijutsu.  



blk said:


> Of course i meant pure taijutsu, otherwise i wouldn't say that those weren't taijutsu fights.




Do you even read kid?  Pure taijutsu skill =/= victor of a taijutsu fight, speed, reactions, power, durability are all factors of a taijutsu fight.  




blk said:


> Many things can cause the brain to work worse, not necessarily almost fatal loss of blood and wounds.


Then name those many things and show how those many things only affected sasuke's speed and not every other character in the manga before they ran despite having rest and not huffing and puffing from chakra loss.



blk said:


> I won't bring up his performance against Bee vs Itachi's if you don't bring up his inability to react to Naruto when he couldn't even react to Sakura [2 ; 3] (if she wouldn't have stopped).




do you ever get tired of failing blk?  When did I say sasuke couldn't react to base naruto?  I said Naruto matched Sasuke's speed/that Sasuke didn't hold the same speed advantage that he held at the beginning of part 2.  That has nothing to do with inability to react.

Sakura hid her presence, sasuke not being able to react to her has nothing to do with his physical or mental reactions, rather his ability to sense his opponents.




blk said:


> Evidently, Karin didn't/couldn't heal him enough.


baseless assertion, back up your assertion with an argument.




blk said:


> Again, a certain degree of support is absolutely necessary in order to make a belief justified.
> 
> We just have to establish to what degree a particular belief must be supported for it to being justified.


That's all simply an assertion you just keep on touting.  Since this is the third time that I've countered your logic that you simply assert, then I accept your concession on this point since you've given no counterargument to both my claims and my own counter to your point as an ignored argument is a conceded one.

If you don't want to concede this point, then you have to attack my argument, you can't simply say the same defeated points over and over.




blk said:


> *
> Because people can't use that kind of moves, so they can't be part of those arts.*
> 
> If you think otherwise, please provide evidences that those moves are part of kenjutsu, taijutsu or swordsmanship.


Bolded: Why can't people use that kind of moves?  

And for the unbolded: I don't have to provide any evidence for those motives as I'm simply taking the position of skepticism (by your logic), thus I'm asking you to justify your own argument until it reaches a level that I and I only deem "good enough."  And until then, I have no burden of proof to support any stance that I may think is more true or if I think otherwise.





blk said:


> You have to realize that when talking in terms of probability, those kind of assumptions are not necessary.
> 
> If i say that it is 100% true that Naruto is faster than Konohamaru, then yes, i'm assuming that anything else is false.
> I would be assuming that a wormhole didn't appeared and moved Naruto, or that a random deity didn't give to Naruto that speed only for that occasion, or whatever.
> ...




The bolded is not something that you can prove, and therefore you can't claim it to be true.  Why are the probability of those things less than the others?




blk said:


> In the first post where i mentioned that only a justified belief has compelling power.
> Read more carefully the next time.


Wait, so if we are talking about criteria for what it means for a belief to be justified, why in the world would you not type what defines a justified belief?  



blk said:


> You wrote this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then our definition of 'justified' is different.  My definition of justified would be justified as the best explanation.  Your definition of justified would be justified as being supported enough to be worthy of argument.  Completely different, my definition deals with no subjectivity, while yours is completely based on the subjective criteria of what you think is 'good enough' evidence.



blk said:


> *Your example of "my logic" is a complete misinterpretation: i never ever stated that i can simply reject any argument regardless of how high is the degree of support that it has.*
> But what if an argument (or an accusation in this case) becomes justified the moment that it becomes even 0.1% more probable/supported than the alternatives? Should people be arrested only because there is an extremely low probably in more that they might be the ones to have commited a certain crime?
> Of course not, and infact that's not what happens (a similar thing applies even for scientific theories).


Bolded:  I've never ever said that you've stated that you could simply reject any argument regardless of how high the degree of support it has, however that's EXACTLY what your logic allows you or anyone to do.  Thus since you don't deny that point and give no argument that would explain that accusation to be false, then you do concede the point that your argument does allocate that kind of power to its user.

People shouldn't be arrested because there is something of value on the line which would be their lives/future/money, and thus if the evidence isn't compelling or convincing, then they should not be charged.  However since we are debating fictional characters and powers which conclusions don't hold any consequence, then we would be able to acknowledge the best explanation no matter how improbable.  In addition to that, if we go by my logic and the evidence is so close to .1%, all you would have to assert is that the underlying assumptions are equally probable, and so no conclusion can be drawn.  Thus you'd still be kept in check by the evaluation of those said conclusions.





blk said:


> If you want to take it as a concession, go ahead.


I will, however, I will leave the door open for you to at any time actually attempt to argue this point or support your reasoning with an argument rather than simply do the "here's a link, come back to me after you read it" dance.





blk said:


> Here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well it's crystal clear to me that there are no contradictions going on here.  I stated that in order for someone to hold a belief to be true, there are necessary assumptions that come with that belief in order for that belief to be true, or the most probable.

So far so good?

Now if that is true, why would it follow that those people have to accept MY assumptions as true?  If their belief is different and caters to different assumptions than my own, then they'd have to accept those assumptions to be true, and not mine.  

So there definitely are assumptions that have to be accepted as true in order for a belief to be true, however depending on your belief, they don't have to be the same assumptions that I have to accept as true if our beliefs differ.


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## ueharakk (Jun 30, 2013)

blk said:


> *So, you would consider chakra arms to be something else just because they were labeled differently? I'm not sure how can you not see the problems with this reasoning.*
> The label doesn't change the nature/essence/whatever of something... infact it doesn't change anything, and the rectangle and square example showed this perfectly.


Bolded: Yes, if one of them is directly called a ninjutsu, and the other isn't, then chakra arms aren't ninjutsu.  Naruto doesn't have to mold any chakra in order to use them, they simply pop up by thought, it's as if you'd argue bee's tentacles are 'ninjutsu'.

The unbolded presupposes that the nature/essence/whatever necessarily means that chakra arms are ninjutsu.  Unless you can show that, then the unbolded does not follow.



blk said:


> Anyway, let's change the question: did Itachi or Naruto held back in pure hand-to-hand combat?


I'm arguing naruto did hold back in taijutsu.




blk said:


> Never said that the unbolded is evidence that Itachi didn't used Shunshin.
> 
> An argument isn't an evidence, so please provide one.
> 
> What argument? I don't care about your baseless statements that you call arguments, i care about evidences.


they are only baseless if you can show that they are in fact baseless. So it's actually the statement that my statement is baseless that is... well baseless.



blk said:


> *The fact that Naruto didn't chased Itachi is evidence that Naruto didn't chased Itachi, *unless you can provide evidences for another interpretation, this will remain the more probable.


blk and his trash logic strikes again.  I guess the fact that Sakura's punch made a massive explosion is not evidence that sakura hits harder than konohomaru, rather it's just evidence that sakura's punch makes a massive explosion.

I provided an argument that explains why the bolded is evidence for Naruto holding back.  Unless you address that argument, then it's a tacit concession on your part as an ignored argument is a conceded one.


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## GKY (Jun 30, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, he's not. Naruto is his superior in taijutsu skill, and Sasuke equaled him. Itachi isn't a taijutsu god.



LOL did you actually neg me for saying Itachi loses and then went on to agree with me? Or is it that you struggle to differentiate between the words isn't as is. 

As for your points, no base Naruto is not better at taijutsu than Itachi. He has a fairly significant speed and reaction time disadvantage. Itachi was capable of not getting slaughtered by Bee and Kabuto in CQC, which I doubt either Sasuke or Naruto can manage. You have to remember, Kishi portrayed Itachi to be the master of basics. He also had a mild clash with Naruto (in RM) and Bee simultaneously without being obliterated. That should indicate that he can overcome base Naruto in a taijutsu fight. Obviously Naruto can wreck his shit though in his other forms. 

As for Sasuke, Itachi planned to lose and was trying to exhaust his stamina. Also, he was extremely sick at the time. This is healthy Itachi, who logically should have improved speed/reflexes, as he has shown in his edo fights and in part 1.

Either way my point still stands, Itachi gets put in a full nelson and beaten to death.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 1, 2013)

GKY said:


> As for your points, no base Naruto is not better at taijutsu than Itachi. He has a fairly significant speed and reaction time disadvantage. Itachi was capable of not getting slaughtered by Bee and Kabuto in CQC, which I doubt either Sasuke or Naruto can manage. You have to remember, Kishi portrayed Itachi to be the master of basics. He also had a mild clash with Naruto (in RM) and Bee simultaneously without being obliterated. That should indicate that he can overcome base Naruto in a taijutsu fight. Obviously Naruto can wreck his shit though in his other forms.



Arguable actually. Doubt I'd say better but arguable for just as skilled. In taijutsu exchanges, skill matters the most. Naruto has had training specifically in taijutsu so he can very well be Itachi's equal in taijutsu skill. He is slower and his reactions are not as good, but he showed that against Deva (someone who landed a hit on Kakashi with sharingan active), he could react and block his attacks even when he was tired from exiting SM. Itachi blocked many of Killer Bee's sword strikes. Sasuke did the same but ended up skewered. The difference is Sasuke did not have unlimited stamina and was said to be weakened from his battle against Itachi. Itachi knew when to retreat and Sasuke didn't. Arrogance, Sasuke being weakened, and Itachi's Edo Tensei body allowed him to avoid being skewered and account for the difference. Naruto pushed back Kabuto in prolonged taijutsu. Honestly Sasuke and Naruto have similar taijutsu/CQC feats in their base forms when compared to Itachi. Together they should wreck.

Edit: When Bee entered the fray, Itachi ran. So he only fought RM Naruto in taijutsu. Not them both. Once Bee entered, he dodged and ran. And about his encounter with RM Naruto... read this:

Itachi and Naruto kicked each other and it was stalemate. Itachi also parried a punch. This is the same KCM Naruto that pushed a bjuu dama and did more damage to Kisame with one hit than 5 tier strength Gai did in one hit. Naruto also timed a punch that moved at the same speed as Killer Bee swinging Samehada down. There are three explanations. Naruto held back significantly against Itachi. Naruto was greatly weakened from 13 Kage Bunshins, traveling all night in KCM mode, training before that, using multiple rasengan variants, chakra arms, and according to Killer Bee he managed to use bjuu dama ONCE during training. Or a combination of both holding back and being weakened. Naruto's strength and speed were not the same and these are the only feasible options.


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