# Onoki vs 4th Raikage



## Matty (Apr 21, 2015)

Area: Where Bee fought Kisame
Intel: None
Restrictions: None
Distance: 50 yards
Mindset: IC

Who takes it?


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## Kai (Apr 21, 2015)

Onoki takes flight, notices aiming beams at A is a pointless endeavor, and then obliterates the surrounding area with Genkai Hakuri no Jutsu.


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## Rocky (Apr 21, 2015)

Kai said:


> Onoki takes flight, notices aiming beams at A is a pointless endeavor, and then obliterates the surrounding area with Genkai Hakuri no Jutsu.



Onoki isn't going to fly so high as to where he's out of A's Shunshin range. Distance is determined by the amount of chakra put into it, and A has enough juice to rival a Tailed Beast. He should be capable of getting decently high in the air with one flicker, at least to whatever elevation Onoki is floating at. 

Anyway, putting large distances between himself & and opponent doesn't seem to be a go to strategy of Onoki's if his _comments_ to Deidara are anything to go by. As for Super Jinton or death rays in general, trump cards aren't going to come into play immediately when neither fighter has knowledge. Luckily, A doesn't need v2 to _pop up_ in Onoki's face, airborne or not, and punch him in half.


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

Both will figure out quickly that they need their best techniques to win 

Ei goes V1 and attempts the blitz. onoki realizes he needs distance and opts for jinton 

jinton doesnt touch Ei thanks to V2 

onoki proceeds to trick Ei with a clone. he weighs Ei down and 1 shots

onoki isnt loosing to Ei


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## Rocky (Apr 21, 2015)

Onoki is old and past his prime with physical limitations (like a back that randomly gives out on him) going up against one of the best speedsters in the manga with absolutely no knowledge. 

Also, this: 



> onoki proceeds to trick Ei with a clone. he weighs Ei down



...makes no sense.  Not only is clone feinting OOC for Onoki (I certainly don't recall him ever attempting it), but pulling one off isn't guaranteed to lead to Onoki getting his hands on a man with lighting-powered reflexes and altering his weight without getting sliced in two.


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Onoki is old and past his prime with physical limitations (like a back that randomly gives out on him) going up against one of the best speedsters in the manga with absolutely no knowledge.
> 
> Also, this:
> 
> ...



 
he clone feinted deidara
hardly OOC

deidara said he was faster during the war than in his prime 

u need to be better informed 

no its not guaranteed however Ei lacks eyes behind his head or sensing skills

Ei 1 dimensional style makes him perfect victim for clone tricks 

considering their performance against madara clones and madara comment 

onoki is clearly the more intelligent better fighter


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## Legendary Itachi (Apr 21, 2015)

In case you forget it was Akatsuchi clone feinted Deidara twice.


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

Legendary Itachi said:


> In case you forget it was Akatsuchi clone feinted Deidara twice.




akatsuchi isnt a rock clone user read the DB

rock clone was used by onoki

in case u forgot onoki also feinted muu

 

love the troll attempt


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## Ghost (Apr 21, 2015)

Ei rapes that overrated raisin.


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## Legendary Itachi (Apr 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> akatsuchi isnt a rock clone user read the DB
> 
> rock clone was used by onoki
> 
> ...



One of Akatsuchi's stone clone. 

And I don't know where you get Onoki feinted Mu. Instead it's Mu trolling Onoki with his Fission Jutsu.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 21, 2015)

They're both pretty arrogant, but with 50m Onoki has an advantage. 

Assuming Ei starts in V1, which is just an assumption considering he's already low-kage level without the raiton cloak, V1 isn't going to blitz Onoki from 50m.

With that being said, we don't what Onoki will do without knowledge either. With 50m distance he's likely to survive an initial blitz by either Base or V1 Ei, from there he realizes he's dealing with a pretty quick shinobi and I don't see why he wouldn't attempt Jinton from that point. 

Of course, this still leaves the possibility that Ei can surprise him with a V2 Shunshin after his Base/V1 blitz fails, and if Onoki avoids his initial with flight he'll have no reason to fly too far out of the range of Ei's shunshin (as he already avoided speed he considered Ei to be at). 

I really have to 50/50 on this. After the initial blitz Jinton can down Ei, and after the initial blitz Ei can amp his shroud and surprise Onoki with his speed arguably landing a lethal blow- aside from the fact he could avoid the Jinton Laser by shunshining with V2- which then opens up an entire dicussion about whether or not Onoki would notice Ei avoiding the Jinton quickly enough to get higher before he shunshined again at Onoki and strikes him down. However, considering V1 Ei was hit with Sasuke's Chidori & nearly Jugo's chakra cannons (I say nearly loosely- he probably wasn't going to get hit at all, he stood there watching them manifest though which means he's complacent with allowing someone to manifest their Jutsu) it's possible he doesn't amp his shroud to V2 to avoid Jinton, a technique he doesn't even know can hurt him.

A lot of factors really.


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## Sasukes Will (Apr 21, 2015)

Onoki wins low-med diff, he takes flight and uses Genkai Hakuri, if Ay gets to him at air, he uses heavy boulder on Ay which gonna make him falls.


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## LostSelf (Apr 21, 2015)

Something curious to mention, about the fight of the Gokage against Madara, is that Ei only, and only lost because he got concerned of Tsunade. So we don't even know who would've lasted longer there.


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## Trojan (Apr 21, 2015)

Onoki is stronger/better overall, but A would win here. Especially without knowledge, I don't see how would Onoki react and avoid A's speed.


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

Fair enough maybe 50/50 

however do note akatsuchi or whatever its name is cannot use rock clone. the Db agrees with this assessment
its onoki technique

onoki was able to heavy weight 5 susanoo clones though. just saying either through diversions or speed the guy should very clearly be able to weigh down Ei. and once he does its auto win for him 

Ei is fast however very vulnerable to being fooled. as he is a meat head


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 21, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Something curious to mention, about the fight of the Gokage against Madara, is that Ei only, and only lost because he got concerned of Tsunade. So we don't even know who would've lasted longer there.



Ei was blocking their hits, but that was about it. His physical strength isn't high enough to inflict any significant damage to the Susano'o clones, nor is his cutting power with raiton. Onoki, on the other hand, hit them with a doton that impeded their movement. He was obviously more successful than Ei.

And if I'm honest, Ei only let his guard down for a split second to look over at Tsunade, and the fact that he'd been _vertically chopped into the ground_ prior to that suggests that he may have been struggling to dodge attacks in the first place. In my opinion, Ei would have been caught by a Susano'o clone sooner or later, even if his attention hadn't swayed to Tsunade.​​


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

agreed godaime Ei was fighting a loosing battle against the clones
though it doesnt really have much basis here since he can hit onoki once and kill him


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## Nikushimi (Apr 21, 2015)

A speedblitzes, spikes Oonoki out of the air like a volleyball, and redmists him against the ground.


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## Ghost (Apr 21, 2015)

B-but muh Jinton.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Apr 21, 2015)

50m???

Wasn't Ei just one nose-hair away from knocking Minato the f!&# out from that range?

If Onoki isn't off the ground by the time Ei cloaks up, he is getting his head taken off.

If Onoki is in the air, then he has all the advantage in the world. However, landing any type of long range attack on Ei is clearly going to be a pain in the b@lls (Raiton Armor reflexes). He can manage a Jinton shot if he camoflagues himself within Rock Clones, and use them as a diversion.

Giving this to Ei more often than not, as the only time Onoki has truly taken to the skies is when he was facing an opponent who was capable of doing the same (Deidara, Muu).


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## LostSelf (Apr 21, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Ei was blocking their hits, but that was about it. His physical strength isn't high enough to inflict any significant damage to the Susano'o clones, nor is his cutting power with raiton. Onoki, on the other hand, hit them with a doton that impeded their movement. He was obviously more successful than Ei.​




More successful at what, exactly? Onoki didn't have chakra to kill them, therefore, if we go to a more successful at stalling the inevitable, i'd go with Ei, he pumps Bijuu level chakra and can dodge and block definitely more than Onoki. Also, we don't know if the blades would've bypassed his shroud when Chidori barely could stab him. Unless Susano'o blades were notably sharper.



> And if I'm honest, Ei only let his guard down for a split second to look over at Tsunade, and the fact that he'd been _vertically chopped into the ground_ prior to that suggests that he may have been struggling to dodge attacks in the first place. In my opinion, Ei would have been caught by a Susano'o clone sooner or later, even if his attention hadn't swayed to Tsunade.


​
Ei was caught only because he left his guard down. In fact, the entire fight he seemd worried by Tsunade, like the scan you provided, as he stopped to talk to her. He would've been caught by the Susano'o clones either way, but not until he were exhausted or his speed were decreasing. Those Susano'o clones were slow enough for Gaara to react to and for Tsunade to punch down. I don't see why the man that reacts to Amaterasu would have problem dodging. Blocking there doesn't mean he was having troubles dodging.


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

@lostself 
onoki effectively immoblized the 5 susanoo clones
therefore he was the only kage to effectively beat his 5 clones


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

Either Onoki lands a Jinton hit eventually or A lands a fatal chop, could go either way though I'd lean towards Onoki due to having elemental advantage and being the stronger of the two and what not but meh


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Apr 21, 2015)

It's funny because I don't think we've ever seen IC Raikage, only pissed off Raikage.

vs. Taka? Pissed off b/c Kirabi was kidnapped.
vs. Zetsu-Kisame? Pissed off b/c Kirabi nearly died.
vs. Madara? Pissed off b/c evil war leader.

Anyway...IC Onoki without knowledge has the balls to go in CQC with his human-sized Jinton, but I really doubt he'll handle IC V1 Raikage. Raikage should have this.


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## LostSelf (Apr 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @lostself
> onoki effectively immoblized the 5 susanoo clones
> therefore he was the only kage to effectively beat his 5 clones



I don't deny he was the most effective Kage. I am just saying we don't know how long Ei would've lasted because he was only grabbed once he focused on Tsunade.

Both didn't have much on the clones, Onoki didn't defeat anybody, unless the jutsu is eternal, he was just stalling as the others. Albeit with more efficiency.


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

Onoki weighing them down effectively took those clones out of the fight as they couldnt move anymore

so onoki did win in  a sense. the jutsu isnt eternal. ok. how does madara undo the jutsu then?

onoki will outsmart Ei who is so 1 dimensional 

the only issue here is onoki doesnt like long distance fights. if he had deidara mindset he would be less likely to loose


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## LostSelf (Apr 21, 2015)

Well, the moment the jutsu wored off, the clones would've kicked his ass. Madara was even being carefree with them, as he could've killed Tsunade, Gaara and Mei but decided not to.

I am not saying who wins here. Ei lacks ranged attacks to hit Onoki, therefore he might be hit airborne with Jinton as he lacks Gai's ability to maneuver mid-air too. However, that's the only way i see Onoki landing a hit on Ei.


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

why imply the jutsu can wear off
manga statements to this effect please

yes madara took it easy on all of them

onoki has clones trickign Ei isnt impossible. far from it.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 21, 2015)

I love Ei threads, because it's always the same thing. No one ever wants to say Ei starts off in v2 and always restrict him to starting in v1 because they know he blitzes. LOL. Usually the op will make the distance ridiculously large as well smh. That's how you know a character is superior, when you can't admit to them one shotting from right off the bat, or making the distance extremely large. When 99% of naruto fights start no more than 10m most times.

I mean, why wouldn't Ei go all out against a kage level ninja like Ohnoki, especailly whenb he knows his opponent can fly. He's gonna go v2 right off the bat, and ohnoki can't do a damn thing about it.


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> I love Ei threads, because it's always the same thing. No one ever wants to say Ei starts off in v2 and always restrict him to starting in v1 because they know he blitzes. LOL.



Or people don't say it because they don't think it's likely that he would start off with V2. He fought Naruto in V1 for the majority of the fight. When he ran into Sasuke, the man who he thought killed his brother, was right in front of him, A didn't start with V2, he fought in V1 until Sasuke pulled out the MS. I think the only time he used V2 off the bat was against Minato so people usually don't think he'll start off with V2 against most people.




> I mean, why wouldn't Ei go all out against a kage level ninja like Ohnoki, especailly whenb he knows his opponent can fly. He's gonna go v2 right off the bat, and ohnoki can't do a damn thing about it.



The knowledge is none here so he doesn't know Onoki is a Kage level ninja and  he doesn't know his opponent can fly so it's not likely that he would start off with V2.


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## Rocky (Apr 21, 2015)

Bonly said:


> I think the only time he used V2 off the bat was against Minato...



And Madara, so it's half & half.


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> And Madara, so it's half & half.



I didn't include that since A doesn't seem to be in V2 to me but that's just a can of worms waiting to be open so yeah


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## Rocky (Apr 21, 2015)

His hair was spiked prior to charging in my opinion, but regardless of the art, A's comments following his flicker against Madara wouldn't make sense unless he was using his max speed there.


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> His hair was spiked prior to charging in my opinion, but regardless of the art, A's comments following his flicker against Madara wouldn't make sense unless he was using his max speed there.



Sure it could. A just said he needed up the speed to crush Madara's defense so if he wasn't at full speed then that comment could've meant that he's about to go full speed.


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## Rocky (Apr 21, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Sure it could. A just said he needed up the speed to crush Madara's defense so if he wasn't at full speed then that comment could've meant that he's about to go full speed.



And he immediately teamed up with Onoki, which he wouldn't have bothered doing if he had another level of speed to ascend to first.


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## Veracity (Apr 21, 2015)

It's also to note that as Commander of the Alliance, he was sure to know the full extent of Onnoki's abilities.


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> And he immediately teamed up with Onoki, which he wouldn't have bothered doing if he had another level of speed to ascend to first.



Onoki told A and Mei that he had a plan and he listened, can you give me a reason to assume he would blow off Onoki at this point in the manga and do his own thing?


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## Rocky (Apr 21, 2015)

A said, out loud, that he needed to up the speed.

Onoki creates a strategy that ups his speed. 

Not difficult to understand.


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

What you mean to say is that Onoki creates a strategy that ups A's speed, boost the power behind his strikes, and tries to blind the Rinnegan rather then A's speed only being up but I agree, not hard to understand.


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## Rocky (Apr 21, 2015)

Are you refuting what I said..?


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

Did I ever say or imply that Onoki didn't up his speed?


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## Rocky (Apr 21, 2015)

That wouldn't have needed to be part of any plan if A without Onoki's help possessed enough speed to get past Madara's guard.


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

That would be the case if Onoki could help A do it better as a team rather then by themselves which was the whole point. Would you half ass the situation if you was going against an Edo Tensei Madara fucking Uchiha by letting A do it himself or would you help him by boosting his speed,power, and chances of hitting Madara which did as good(if not better) a job then Byakugo Tsunade punching Susanoo?


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## FlamingRain (Apr 21, 2015)

Would Ay half ass the situation if he was going against Edo Tensei Madara by not using V2?


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## Rocky (Apr 21, 2015)

Not being _redundant_ is not the same thing as half-assing something. A possessing enough speed to crush Madara's guard by himself would mean that Onoki would be better off contributing to any team combination attacks in other ways.


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Would Ay half ass the situation if he was going against Edo Tensei Madara by not using V2?



Yes he would which is why he was listening to Onoki 



Rocky said:


> Not being _redundant_ is not the same thing as half-assing something. A possessing enough speed to crush Madara's guard by himself would mean that Onoki would be better off contributing to any team combination attacks in other ways.



Which wouldn't have been as good as sticking with A and helping him out.


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## Rocky (Apr 21, 2015)

Why      ?


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

Madara had Preta path which Onoki saw him use so Onoki knows what's up when it comes to Ninjutsu at that point in time. So what's the next best thing to use? Taijutsu and I think we know who's the better Taijutsu user of the group(forgive me Flamming Rain and Godaime Tsunade ).


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 21, 2015)

^ I'm certain Onoki believed Jinton could strike Madara despite Preta Path. It wasn't until later that he realized that his ninjutsu attempts were worthless.


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## Rocky (Apr 21, 2015)

I'm not sure Onoki fully understood what Preta Path did. He attacked Madara with golems after seeing him absorb Rasenshuriken, and he used Jinton offensively later on in the fight.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 21, 2015)

No knowledge favors Ei more than Oonoki.
If Oonoki notices how fast Ei can be on the ground and quickly takes flight way out his range, I can definitely see him winning. Otherwise, Ei might even tag Tsuchikage with V1, depending on how short the range is.

Oonoki is the stronger character overall, but Ei would thrive with this kind of knowledge.


It can go either way, but I'd give the victory to Ei more often than not,


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ I'm certain Onoki believed Jinton could strike Madara despite Preta Path. It wasn't until later that he realized that his ninjutsu attempts were worthless.





Rocky said:


> I'm not sure Onoki fully understood what Preta Path did. He attacked Madara with golems after seeing him absorb Rasenshuriken, and he used Jinton offensively later on in the fight.



Onoki used Jinton to stop the forest fire that was around them when Madara use the flower tree world(I think that's the name of the jutsu) and when he did that he ended up hitting Madara's shoulder(because Madara wanted it to happen) with Jinton so he thought it would work even though he saw FRS get absorbed. Before he landed a hit on Madara he didn't attempt Jinton


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2015)

Ei vs Onoki is heavily dependent on conditions. If it's short-range he could beat Onoki before he takes flight if he is aggressive enough at the onset, but since the starting distance is 50m, Onoki will likely take flight before that occurs, and from there Ei has no way to reach him with his attacks and Onoki has free reign to employ as many strategies as he can to hit Ei before his stamina runs dry, I think more often than not Onoki will eventually figure out a winning strategy to hit Ei before that happens. Plus Onoki's strength portrayal is better than Ei, and he is the more intelligent and experienced fighter, so I expect him to make better use of his abilities here than Ei as well.


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## Icegaze (Apr 22, 2015)

@bonly 
Ei was in V2 against madara

why?

when he fought the clones also in V2 he never managed to break through susanoo either. if u want to assume he wasnt in V2 and was in V1. then why is it that against the clones he still didnt manage to break susanoo?

unless u want to also assume Ei only ever fought madara in V1 

which would be odd considering he was loosing.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 22, 2015)

I'd rank Onoki slightly higher than A normally, but in this particular match up, there is no intel for both sides. And I don't think Onoki'll expect A to move so fast, so the likehood of him getting caught off guard to a shunshin blitz is more than the likehood of A not being able to dodge Jinton.

7-8/10 A wins this.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 23, 2015)

That's assuming he uses his fastest shunshin early, he's definitely not going V2 at start, maybe not even entering Raiton Chakra Mode at all considering the size and age of Onoki and considering the fact he's already powerful without the cloak. 

That being said, there's still that chance that the jump from Base or V1 to V2 will be significant enough to surprise Onoki an allow Ei to land a lethal strike.

Onoki still has a decent chance of offing him with Jinton at any point, however, especially considering V1 Ei was hit with Sasuke's Chidori and Ei's linear attacking style is easily predictable (when he's not moving his fastest), Onoki is capable of dodging then offing him from behind with a stream Jinton. Base Killer Bee catching V1 Ei's punch is also an indication that Onoki is fully capable of putting his hand on Ei to weigh him down early in the fight- unless you actually think Base Killer Bee is superior to Onoki in speed (the guy that weighed down 5 V3 Madara Susanos and appeared to save Ei without being noticed by Madara).

The speed of Jinton shouldn't be underrated, most of the feats when Onoki was using it were clearly slowed down for us to follow- in it's fastest use Onoki wiped out  a large part of Madara's Flowering Tree forest in a fraction of a panel. Mu's Jinton apparently was too fast for Gaara or Onoki to intercept/stop without KCM Naruto's blindside attempt and he couldn't even free fall half way to the ground before Mu was nearly finished charging another.


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## Rocky (Apr 23, 2015)

If you're suggesting that old ass Onoki can do anything other than die against v1 flicker speeds that intercepted a charging KCM Naruto in midair (even though A was in Base when Naruto began moving), then we aren't friends anymore.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 23, 2015)

Lol I'll admit he was owning KCM Naruto & Bee in V1, but it was clear KCM Naruto's shunshins weren't impressing Bee or Tsunade until he amped it enough to avoid V2 Ei, at which point everyone's jaw dropped and he was mentioned in company with Minato.

Onoki did stop Madara's V3 Susanos by physically touching all 5 of them without receiving a wound, (Two blades in gut) Tsunade, (punched) Mei, (shockwave pushed him back) Gaara & (grappled by Madara's Susano) Ei were all wounded in some way by the Susano on panel.

From 50m, the same Onoki can't touch V1 Ei? The dude immobilized all of the Susano with a close quarter technique outnumbered 5 to 1, old or not- that is speed comparable to MS Sasuke, who did manage to put his hand on a pissed V1 Ei.

I mean, C'mon Rocky, Ei managed to throw Killer bee into KCM Naruto- he clearly wasn't moving that fast.


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## Rocky (Apr 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Lol I'll admit he was owning KCM Naruto & Bee in V1, but it was clear KCM Naruto's shunshins weren't impressing Bee or Tsunade until he amped it enough to avoid V2 Ei, at which point everyone's jaw dropped and he was mentioned in company with Minato.



Actually on the contrary, Tsunade was _amazed_ that Naruto was able to keep up with A _at all,_ not just A's maximum speed. 

That speaks highly of A's v1 flickers, because it isn't as if Tsunade didn't know that Kyubi Chakra forms enhanced speed, yet she was still awed. 



> Onoki did stop Madara's V3 Susanos by physically touching all 5 of them without receiving a wound, (Two blades in gut) Tsunade, (punched) Mei, (shockwave pushed him back) Gaara & (grappled by Madara's Susano) Ei were all wounded in some way by the Susano on panel.



Well to be fair, Tsunade didn't give two shits about being "wounded" because she wasn't really being hindered by those blades thanks to her regeneration, and A was grabbed by Susano'o when he stopped fighting and started worrying about Tsunade coughing up blood. 

Since it was off panel, I don't know how Onoki weighed the clones down. That said, I'm more inclined to think it was clever use of clonejutsu and Doton ambush tactics rather than an old man casually bobbing and weaving attacks from 5 Susano'o clones at once. Let's be reasonable. Sage Kabuto had trouble avoiding two Susano'os...



> From 50m, the same Onoki can't touch V1 Ei? The dude immobilized all of the Susano with a close quarter technique outnumbered 5 to 1.



What's he going to do when A shunshins up to the spot where he's floating and swings at him? Block and get his arms torn off? KCM Naruto was marveling at A's physical might.

This is the same Naruto that pushed a full size Bijudama through a barrier a few hours prior.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 23, 2015)

> Actually on the contrary, Tsunade was _amazed_ that Naruto was able to keep up with A _at all,_ not just A's maximum speed.


I stand corrected.



> That speaks highly of A's v1 flickers, because it isn't as if Tsunade didn't know that Kyubi Chakra forms enhanced speed, yet she was still awed.


Ei certainly wasn't in awe, and Killer Bee's / Tsunade's expression changed quite a bit when Naruto actually utilized his flash shunshin with comparisons to Minato. 

Ei managed to grab Killer Bee's tentacle and throw Killer Bee into KCM Naruto, who was currently shunshining. Not exactly a great representation for Naruto's speed. One has to wonder how slow KCM Naruto was actually moving for that to be possible, the dude could have picked up a rock and hit him with it. 



> Well to be fair, Tsunade didn't give two shits about being "wounded" because she wasn't really being hindered by those blades thanks to her regeneration, and A was grabbed by Susano'o when he stopped fighting and started worrying about Tsunade coughing up blood.


She got wounded because she couldn't hit the Susanos without retaliation, unlike Onoki. 

I agree Ei was distracted and got grappled- but he still got grappled. 



> Since it was off panel, I don't know how Onoki weighed the clones down. That said, I'm more inclined to think it was clever use of clonejutsu and Doton ambush tactics rather than an old man casually bobbing and weaving attacks from 5 Susano'o clones at once. Let's be reasonable. Sage Kabuto had trouble avoiding two Susano'os...


There's no way to tell, really. Madara's explanation doesn't include the use of Doton clones.

Sage Kabuto did quite well against the Susanos, he didn't receive a single wound from them and Sasuke was readily using his Arrows, something Madara's V3 doesn't have, not to mention he was in an enclosed area with them. He could have simply summoned V2 Manda on both of them, or completely avoided being targeted at all in the cave by hiding. 



> What's he going to do when A shunshins up to the spot where he's floating and swings at him? Block and get his arms torn off? KCM Naruto was marveling at A's physical might.


Onoki apparently had no issue putting his hand on 5 V3 Susanos with far more reach and destructive power, while receiving no wounds. 



> This is the same Naruto that pushed a full size Bijudama through a barrier a few hours prior.


And yet, Madara and Mu's arms were not torn off from Ei's punch.

There's always the option of _dodging_ him, just as MS sasuke did.


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## Rocky (Apr 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Ei certainly wasn't in awe.



A wasn't in awe because he is crazy fast too, which is my point.  B was already familiar with Naruto's KCM speed.



> She got wounded because she couldn't hit the Susanos without retaliation, unlike Onoki.



_She wasn't trying to._

Recall the Raikage's "you're fighting sloppy!" comments. 



> I agree Ei was distracted and got grappled- but he still got grappled.



...because of the distraction. 



> There's no way to tell, really. Madara's explanation doesn't include the use of Doton clones.



Wasn't his explanation "Onoki stopped the clones."..?



> Sage Kabuto did quite well against the Susanos, he didn't receive a single wound from them and Sasuke was readily using his Arrows, something Madara's V3 doesn't have, not to mention he was in an enclosed area with them.



I think he got tagged on the tail. He also was grabbed by them a few times...



> Onoki apparently had no issue putting his hand on 5 V3 Susanos with far more reach and destructive power, while receiving no wounds.



You forgot "far less speed." They also aren't as strong as A by feats, who actually has feats of chopping off a part of the Hachibi's head.

But no, Onoki is _totally_ faster and more reflexive than KCM Naruto.



> And yet, Madara's arms were not torn off from Ei's punch.



And here I am wondering why Prime Madara (who wears armor ) is being brought up when A's opponent in this thread is an old man with back problems...


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 23, 2015)

> A wasn't in awe because he is crazy fast too, which is my point.  B was already familiar with Naruto's KCM speed.


Bee was, but there was a difference between KCM Naruto's normal speed and what he produced when Ei came at him at full speed. 



> _She wasn't trying to._
> 
> Recall the Raikage's "you're fighting sloppy!" comments.


At no point did she admit she was deliberately being wounded to land hits. Fighting sloppy does not indicate she can fight better than what she was, it indicates that Ei thinks she cannot fight efficiently. 



> ...because of the distraction.


Are you suggesting Onoki wasn't distracted at any point?



> Wasn't his explanation "Onoki stopped the clones."..?


With his Weight Jutsu Yes.

With Clones & Weight Jutsu? No. 



> You forgot "far less speed." They also aren't as strong as A by feats, who actually has feats of chopping off a part of the Hachibi's head.


And Ei has Raiton flow in his arm, unless you're suggesting he chopped the *horn* (not head) off with pure physical strength.

Obito's shurikens casually cut through BM Bee's tentacle, I'm going to go ahead and assume the horn isn't that much more durable. 



> And here I am wondering why Prime Madara (who wears armor ) is being brought up when A's opponen t in this thread is an old man with back problems...


And Mu wears... cotton bandages?
~Arm was not damaged from Ei's Punch

Looking [here] we see Edo Madara has no armor on his lower arms aside from cloth, which are responsible for blocking Ei's punch [2]. 

Edo (not Prime in the slightest) Madara fought Ei, he is part of his feat spectrum, that is why he's being brought up. Edo (not Prime in the slightest) Madara blocked Ei's punch without any form of damage to his arms.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 23, 2015)

Ay said she was _"getting/becoming"_ sloppy, implying that she was doing "better" before.


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## Rocky (Apr 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Bee was, but there was a difference between KCM Naruto's normal speed and what he produced when Ei came at him at full speed.



I know.

_Both_ speeds are fast though. You've presented nothing to the contrary either. 



> Are you suggesting Onoki wasn't distracted at any point?



You say that as if his actions against the clones were on panel. 



> With his Weight Jutsu Yes.
> 
> With Clones & Weight Jutsu? No.



I was just guessing, but that in itself portrays the problem with your point.

*It was off panel.*

You act like Onoki's speed was a major contributor to what he did against the clones without anything resembling support. 



> And Ei has Raiton flow in his arm, unless you're suggesting he chopped the *horn* (not head) off with pure physical strength.



He's almost always flowing Raiton through his body in RCM. That same chop would tear Onoki in half, no questions asked. It 



> And Mu wears... cotton bandages?
> ~Arm was not damaged from Ei's Punch



Did we see what happened to Mu after taking A's hit? I don't remember.



> Edo (not Prime in the slightest) Madara fought Ei, he is part of his feat spectrum, that is why he's being brought up. Edo (not Prime in the slightest) Madara blocked Ei's punch without any form of damage to his arms.



..and Suigetsu's arms were torn off. Adding to that, A put a dent in a multi-layered shield formed by CS2 Jugo, which he tore a hole in upon adding more pressure.

I don't see why Onoki fairs differently.


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## Veracity (Apr 23, 2015)

Onoki can fucking fly. Would he have a hard time evading the Sussano clones and getting a single touch? While the other Kage have to battle them up close and pull of their highest offensive techniques to dismantle Sussano clones that never get exhausted and regenerate? Onnoki's performance has hardly anything to do with his reactions and has more to do with the fact that he was the best suited to fight the Sussano clones.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 23, 2015)

> I know.
> 
> _Both_ speeds are fast though. You've presented nothing to the contrary either.





> You say that as if his actions against the clones were on panel.


It was explained by Madara, who did not speak of Doton Clones aiding, only of Onoki using his weight technique which requires direct contact. 



> You act like Onoki's speed was a major contributor to what he did against the clones without anything resembling support.


Managing to touch all 5 of them without good speed would be impossible, of course it was a major contributor. Onoki can make 3 Doton clones canonically, which have no speed feats. 

Assuming he did create 3, he's still outnumbered by 1- and his reach is considerably smaller compared to the Susanos- speed was clearly a contributor. 



> He's almost always flowing Raiton through his body in RCM. That same chop would tear Onoki in half, no questions asked.


Of course, assuming it hit him. 



> Did we see what happened to Mu after taking A's hit? I don't remember.


Mu got sent back into the ground, but his arm was not shown destroyed during the exchange. 



> ..and Suigetsu's arms were torn off. Adding to that, A put a dent in a multi-layered shield formed by CS2 Jugo, which he tore a hole in upon adding more pressure.


Lol Killer Bee punched a fucking hole in his stomach, you can't seriously be using Suigetsu's liquefied body as a means of presenting Ei's destructive output? It's fucking water.

And yet he failed to damage Edo Madara's arm, the same Edo Madara that was kicked through (his armor this time) his body by KM Gated Lee. 



> I don't see why Onoki fairs differently.


Because Onoki beat 5 V3 Madara Susano clones with a close quarter technique?

Do me a favor, ask yourself if MS Sasuke could physically touch all 5 Susanos without being wounded? If he can't do it, then Onoki can touch Ei- as he'd be faster than MS Sasuke, who touched Ei. Keep in mind that MS Sasuke was hit by Darui's wave of inspiration.


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## Rocky (Apr 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> It was explained by Madara, who did not speak of Doton Clones aiding, only of Onoki using his weight technique which requires direct contact.
> 
> Managing to touch all 5 of them without good speed would be impossible, of course it was a major contributor.



Sigh.

Chōkajūgan was the method that Onoki kept the clones down with. How he actually went about applying the technique was _unexplained_ outside of Onoki's "experience." Assuming that reason was super speed makes little sense to me, and to be quite frank I don't care about these assumptions because they are baseless.

Let me give you an example. Naruto defeated Deva Pain with Rasengan, a melee-range technique. Yet, Naruto's physical speed had _next to nothing_ to do with that. You don't know what Onoki used to create an opening for his weighted rock technique, but raw speed is incredibly unlikely considering how versatile Onoki is.

This is basically a giant reach just to provide Onoki a speed feat.



> Of course, assuming it hit him.



v1 A put his hands on a flickering KCM Naruto repeatedly, so Onoki avoiding is out of the question. 



> Mu got sent back into the ground, but his arm was not shown destroyed during the exchange.



Link..?



> Lol Killer Bee punched a fucking hole in his stomach, you can't seriously be using Suigetsu's liquefied body as a means of presenting Ei's destructive output? It's fucking water.



It wasn't the fact that Suigetsu's arms were liquified. It's the fact that he said they would have been torn off if they _weren't_ water. 



> And yet he failed to damage Edo Madara's arm, the same Edo Madara that was kicked through (his armor this time) his body by KM Gated Lee.



It's an irrelevant point. 

*We're talking about Onoki.*



> Do me a favor, ask yourself if MS Sasuke could physically touch all 5 Susanos without being wounded? If he can't do it, then Onoki can touch Ei- as he'd be faster than MS Sasuke, who touched Ei. Keep in mind that MS Sasuke was hit by Darui's wave of inspiration.



Hopefully you realize why Sasuke was able to hit A.

Regardless, yes Sasuke could likely touch the five Susano'o. They're f*cking _gigantic._


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## ShadoLord (Apr 23, 2015)

The Raikage should be able to blitze Onoki with his sheer speed and power, but if Onoki could just land one hit, the Raikage is finished.


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## Grimsley (Apr 23, 2015)

This is one of the few fights where Ei's speed actually really helps. He blitzs the Tsuchikage and kicks him around like a football; Onoki won't survive, his body is too frail.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 23, 2015)

> Chōkajūgan was the method that Onoki kept the clones down with. How he actually went about applying the technique was _unexplained_ outside of Onoki's "experience." Assuming that reason was super speed makes little sense to me, and to be quite frank I don't care about these assumptions because they are baseless.


Indeed it was.

Speed had to be a contributor, he touched all 5 of them. 



> Let me give you an example. Naruto defeated Deva Pain with Rasengan, a melee-range technique. Yet, Naruto's physical speed had _next to nothing_ to do with that. You don't know what Onoki used to create an opening for his weighted rock technique, but raw speed is incredibly unlikely considering how versatile Onoki is.


Naruto required his clones to throw him across a smoke cloud to hit Deva Path. Quite frankly, it shouldn't have happened, but plot is plot. Now, if he'd done that 5 times (as Onoki did to the Susano) then you'd have a point.

Onoki has limited options in allowing him to touch Susano 5 times, and it begins and ends with the use of Clones and simply elusive speed. He didn't use Jinton, because the clones would've been eradicated. I don't see how manipulating the earth would've allowed him to touch the Susano, so that's a waste of time to argue. Other than those techniques he has Flight and techniques that require him to make direct contact with the opponent. Sure, he has multiple elemental releases, but he hasn't shown any Jutsu outside of Jinton with them. 

It was either clones feinting the Susano, or he did it himself. Either way, he'd need advanced speed to touch all 5 regardless of 3 clones feinting if he wasn't even partially wounded. 



> This is basically a giant reach just to provide Onoki a speed feat.


How is it a giant reach? MS Sasuke, CS2 Jugo and Suigetsu read and reacted to V1 Raikage's movements, now it's a reach for Onoki to replicate those feats?

You have some fixated belief that V1 Raikage has speed that is outside of the range of these levels, but you're wrong. He is not blitzing Onoki without using V2, period. 



> v1 A put his hands on a flickering KCM Naruto repeatedly, so Onoki avoiding is out of the question.


No it's not. Base Killer Bee put his hand on Ei's fist in mid-punch, Suigetsu intercepted his blitz and blocked his fucking arm, MS Sasuke dodged his elbow outright and stuck his hand in his torso.

Onoki is outside of MS Sasuke & Suigetsu's speed range? No the fuck he is not. 



> Link..?


You're fully capable of finding the chapter yourself. 



> It wasn't the fact that Suigetsu's arms were liquified. It's the fact that he said they would have been torn off if they _weren't_ water.


And what of Madara blocking it without damage?



> *We're talking about Onoki.*


Yes, a high-kage level who defeated 5 of Madara's V3 Mokuton Susano clones by physically touching them without being wounded. 



> Hopefully you realize why Sasuke was able to hit A.
> 
> Regardless, yes Sasuke could likely touch the five Susano'o. They're f*cking _gigantic._


Wow, increased size (increased reach [Extension Blades, 4 arms, Magatamas], massive legged Susano = movement transcending the speed of the actual ninja with further distance per-step) makes Madara's Susano easier to touch?

Lovely. That must be why Madara opted to use it, because against 2 Taijutsu specialist and a weight manipulator they're clearly the better option.


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## Rocky (Apr 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Speed had to be a contributor, he touched all 5 of them.



Your conclusion doesn't have anything to do with your premise. I'm starting to question your ability to debate with actual logic.



> Onoki has limited options in allowing him to touch Susano 5 times, and it begins and ends with the use of Clones and simply elusive speed.



We don't know the full extent of what Onoki can do, so I'll reiterate: touching five Susano'o clones over the course of a lengthy-off panel battle does not require an immense level of speed.

Bottom line is that I don't really care how Onoki managed it. Him managing it isn't indicative of him being at a higher level of speed than we knew him to be on. We simply don't how everything happened. 



> How is it a giant reach? MS Sasuke, CS2 Jugo and Suigetsu read and reacted to V1 Raikage's movements, now it's a reach for Onoki to replicate those feats?
> 
> You have some fixated belief that V1 Raikage has speed that is outside of the range of these levels, but you're wrong. He is not blitzing Onoki without using V2, period.



Go ahead and point to me where I claimed that Onoki was unable to _react_ to v1 A at all. My argument accounted for Onoki putting up a damn guard.



> No it's not. Base Killer Bee put his hand on Ei's fist in mid-punch, Suigetsu intercepted his blitz and blocked his fucking arm, MS Sasuke dodged his elbow outright and stuck his hand in his torso.
> 
> Onoki is outside of MS Sasuke & Suigetsu's speed range? No the fuck he is not.



I could sit here and pick this apart, but it's all irrelvant. The only one that _evaded_ A was Sasuke, using dojutsu precognition that Onoki doesn't possess. Furthermore, Sasuke only ducked under a linear elbow thrust from a lunging A, which is not on the speed tier of any attacks associated with Raiton: Shunshin



> You're fully capable of finding the chapter yourself.



If you don't want to provide your own evidence, I'll just take it that you have none, which doesn't bother me. 



> And what of Madara blocking it without damage?



It's a nice durability feat for _Madara_ then. Even if you want to play this game, then I'll just let you know that it doesn't really matter if Onoki takes no damage from a punch. He'll be smashed down to the ground from it, like Madara was, and A will have an opening to drop down and chop him in half. Onoki has no Susano'o to defend against that like Madara.



> Lovely. That must be why Madara opted to use it, because they're clearly easier to touch than his human-sized Mokuton clones. Yeah.



Resisting the urge to facepalm. My friend, the reason Madara uses Susano'o is because _it doesn't typically care about being touched. _

It's a defensive technique intended to guard the user from damage. Susano'o's size alone makes it a bigger target than a normal shinobi and thus more susceptible to being tagged.


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## Thunder (Apr 24, 2015)

I can see this going either way, really. 

On one hand, A is far faster and far more reflexive than an old man regardless of whether or not A is in "V1" or "V2" Raiton Chakra Mode states. A is a _kage level speedster_. It wouldn't make very much sense if he couldn't straight up blitz other kage levels, or at least _consistently pressure them_. Aside from Gai, A is suppose to represent the pinnacle of shinobi who focus on honing their physical attributes. So the possibility A overwhelms Ōnoki with his incredible speed is there.

On the other hand, even though there's no intel here, Ōnoki is still sensible and experienced enough to avoid a close-quarters brawl with a heavily muscled dude. In that scenario Ōnoki immediately flies away and relies on his best long range option: Jinton. Eventually A slips up and Ōnoki catches him with sweeping Jinton beams. And for what it's worth, I think it's consensus around here that Ōnoki was portrayed as the strongest of the Gokage when they all fought against Edo Madara. With that in mind, I can definitely envision Ōnoki escaping A if this fight were to be written in the manga.

So yeah. They both have a good shot here I'd say.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 24, 2015)

Onoki flies as fast or faster than Deidara on a mount, which can outpace Gaara's absolute defence sand.  I don't know if Gaara's sand got faster later, but that stuff could block ameterasu.  Not that the short speed of the sand is quite the indicator of movement over distance, but it's pretty darn quick.  Psuedo-speedsters like Kakashi and Sasuke also couldn't catch up to Deidara's mounts until they slowed or hovered.  Mind you, Sasuke without juin boost or white snake speed could keep up with V1.  Albeit with help from the sharingan, but Rock Lee pointed out your body still needs to be able to keep up with your eyes.

Reflexively, Onoki was able to track Ei's movements and respond _with ninjutsu_.  He was lightening Ei to up his crazy fast shunshin speed, and at the point of Ei's attack from shunshin, casting the jutsu again to weight his horizontal chops and punches.  That strategy is impossible if Onoki can't perceive, act, and react at and to the speeds Ei was going.

I don't think Onoki is faster than Ei, or faster than V2, or want to use this to support any crazy claim, but I will use it to say Onoki shouldn't get head lopped of by a V1 speed he can't perceive.  Be it by flying away, raising a golem, or whatever his choice might be.

Also I kinda just agree with Kai.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 24, 2015)

> Your conclusion doesn't have anything to do with your premise. I'm starting to question your ability to debate with actual logic.


You have suggested nothing other than clones that would give Onoki a reasonably chance in touching the Susano. 



> We don't know the full extent of what Onoki can do, so I'll reiterate: touching five Susano'o clones over the course of a lengthy-off panel battle does not require an immense level of speed.


Doing so without being touched once by the Susanos does require an immense level of speed. Do you understand that V3 Legged Susano have dozens of meters of extended reach and can move multiple times the distance any of them can in a single pace?

Mei failed, was saved by Gaara. Tsunade failed, was stabbed twice canonically. The author made this clear. 



> Bottom line is that I don't really care how Onoki managed it. Him managing it isn't indicative of him being at a higher level of speed than we knew him to be on. We simply don't how everything happened.


We don't know him to be any on speed level of note.

No one has even remotely challenged him in speed because he either wipes them out instantly with Jinton, was on a team with someone who's only notable merit is speed/close quarter offense, or he was fighting someone who was blindsiding him (Mu, 2nd Mizukage).

Literally, no one has even attempted to blitz Onoki, no one in the entire manga. 

What we do know is when he was *alone*, *outnumbered 5 to 1*, he immobilized a group of V3 Legged Susano controlled by clones of Madara without getting blitzed. 


> Go ahead and point to me where I claimed that Onoki was unable to _react_ to v1 A at all. My argument accounted for Onoki putting up a damn guard.


I don't see why he'd be incapable of avoiding the fist entirely, Onoki can move his body freely due to flight. If he has time to put his arms up he has even more time to fly a meter sideways, which requires no bodily exertion whatsoever. 



> I could sit here and pick this apart, but it's all irrelvant. The only one that _evaded_ A was Sasuke, using dojutsu precognition that Onoki doesn't possess. Furthermore, Sasuke only ducked under a linear elbow thrust from a lunging A, which is not on the speed tier of any attacks associated with Raiton: Shunshin


What makes you think he'll utilize Raiton: Shunshin before Onoki touches him then?

Let me get this straight:

According to you, [this] is Ei not using shunshin? Do you think he's simply running at him? Why was the cloak activated if his intent was to only run at Sasuke?

And according to you, Ei doesn't use it against MS Sasuke while he's in the cloak and bloodlusted,

But he will use it against a randomized senior midget he has no knowledge on, standing 50m from him, without starting in Raiton Chakra Mode and while IC?



> It's a nice durability feat for _Madara_ then. Even if you want to play this game, then I'll just let you know that it doesn't really matter if Onoki takes no damage from a punch. He'll be smashed down to the ground from it, like Madara was, and A will have an opening to drop down and chop him in half. Onoki has no Susano'o to defend against that like Madara.


That's assuming he punches him while Onoki is in the air... Onoki has no reason to retreat to the air without knowledge. If Onoki successfully guards on the ground without his arms being destroyed he'll simply be sent back like Naruto. 

Mind you, anything short of V2 with a second blitz attempt will most likely end in Ei's total eradication via Jinton: Detachment of the Primitive World. 



> Resisting the urge to facepalm. My friend, the reason Madara uses Susano'o is because _it doesn't typically care about being touched. _


What I'm hearing is you actually think a V3 Legged Susano is less capable of avoiding touch, compared to the humanoid Mokuton Clone?

Sasuke and Madara do not use *Legged* Susano to protect themselves, they use it to destroy their opponent. Ribcage Susano is capable of denying 95% of the verses' offense, non-legged V3 variants 99%. Why the fuck would he bother adding legs to it? The fact the Susano are legged project the notion that it's being utilized as an offensive vessel, capable of moving on it's own to pressure opponents with speed and increase the power behind their strikes with movement. 

>Doesn't care if the Susano are hit
>But he manifests them with legs

There is no conceivable logic present between the two.  



> It's a defensive technique intended to guard the user from damage. Susano'o's size alone makes it a bigger target than a normal shinobi and thus more susceptible to being tagged.


Legged Susano is as much offense as it is defense, or haven't you realized that yet? Do you actually think EMS Sasuke, with the curse seal, can move at speeds to pressure Jubito (as his Legged Susano did)? Do you think he can completely cut through a Mokuton God Tree Branch 500m+ in width with a swing of his 3-foot Katana as his leaping (velocity increasing power behind blade) Legged Susano did?

I find it amusing you think touching a Legged Susano is easier than touching the shinobi. Do read the CSEMS Sasuke & Jubito fight, Incomplete Jubito casually places his palm on Sasuke's head on the ground- but Complete Jubito requires Gudōdama extension to grapple his Natural Energy Legged Susano hundreds of meters in the air, Jubito being the only one who could actually fly.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Your conclusion doesn't have anything to do with your premise. I'm starting to question your ability to debate with actual logic.



 The logic is that being able to intercept your opponent with a ninjutsu is impressive and a sign of speed as all of the Susano'o clones are fast enough to tag Ei.




> We don't know the full extent of what Onoki can do, so I'll reiterate: touching five Susano'o clones over the course of a lengthy-off panel battle does not require an immense level of speed.



 Was it a lengthy battle? I would still consider intercepting Susano'o clones that are fast enough to tag Ei to be rather impressive.



> Bottom line is that I don't really care how Onoki managed it. Him managing it isn't indicative of him being at a higher level of speed than we knew him to be on. We simply don't how everything happened.



  Except we know how. He simply intercepted the clones before they could strike Ei, the same guys Ei struggled to dodge. Even Kishi had Madara acknowledge Onoki's strength there, so obviously it was a considerable feat.




> I could sit here and pick this apart, but it's all irrelvant. The only one that _evaded_ A was Sasuke, using dojutsu precognition that Onoki doesn't possess. Furthermore, Sasuke only ducked under a linear elbow thrust from a lunging A, which is not on the speed tier of any attacks associated with Raiton: Shunshin



 I still don't understand how Onoki would be unable to react to Raiage's level of speed. After all, Gaara, an inferior Kage, managed to react to the Susano'o clones that Ei was unable to dodge on multiple occasions. The fact that Onoki also reacted to them implies he can keep up with the Raikage's level of speed (V1 at the very least). We also have to consider Onoki keeping up with Deidara who has great maneuverability, being able to dodge Gaara's Enormous Sand that is capable of reacting to multiple Susano'o clones who Ei himself couldn't dodge.

 Even then, how can you tell Ei's strike wasn't enhanced by Shunshin?




> It's a nice durability feat for _Madara_ then. Even if you want to play this game, then I'll just let you know that it doesn't really matter if Onoki takes no damage from a punch. He'll be smashed down to the ground from it, like Madara was, and A will have an opening to drop down and chop him in half. Onoki has no Susano'o to defend against that like Madara.




Not exactly. The guy tanked getting squished by 2 meteors and can easily use Jinton before Ei strikes him again if need be. 




> Resisting the urge to facepalm. My friend, the reason Madara uses Susano'o is because _it doesn't typically care about being touched. _
> 
> It's a defensive technique intended to guard the user from damage. Susano'o's size alone makes it a bigger target than a normal shinobi and thus more susceptible to being tagged.



 I agree here.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 24, 2015)

I also agree with Thunder.


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## Rocky (Apr 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> The logic is that being able to intercept your opponent with a ninjutsu is impressive and a sign of speed as all of the Susano'o clones are fast enough to tag Ei.



The Susano'o clones aren't all that quick.

They got ahold of A when he was _distracted_ by Tsunade's sudden outburst. Distractions slow shinobi down considerably, because they tend to be caught _off guard_ by whomever is attacking them. 

A being caught by Susano'o is an example of that. So is Sakura hitting Kaguya.



> Was it a lengthy battle?



The Madara vs. Gokage fight was a day long, so yes.



> Except we know how. He simply intercepted the clones before they could strike Ei



Onoki didn't increase the weight of the clones when he saved A. He did that before, off panel. 



> I still don't understand how Onoki would be unable to react to Raiage's level of speed.



I never claimed that Onoki was unable to...



> Not exactly. The guy tanked getting squished by 2 meteors and can easily use Jinton before Ei strikes him again if need be.



He _survived_, but he looked like hell, and he likely lived because the light meteor cushioned the blow. Onoki is not some durable monster that can shrug off hits from Raikage. You will never convince me of that.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 24, 2015)

...He didn't say he weighed them down, he said he intercepted them, which is what he did [1] [2].


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 24, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> That's assuming he uses his fastest shunshin early, he's definitely not going V2 at start, maybe not even entering Raiton Chakra Mode at all considering the size and age of Onoki and considering the fact he's already powerful without the cloak.
> 
> That being said, there's still that chance that the jump from Base or V1 to V2 will be significant enough to surprise Onoki an allow Ei to land a lethal strike.
> 
> ...



A not using his shroud ? Why would A do something as stupid as that ? He has never done it in a real fight.


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## Empathy (Apr 24, 2015)

Onoki's recognizably the stronger character, but probably not by much. Onoki also has the feats to say he wouldn't be completely unable to perceive A's speed. However, Onoki's stated he doesn't like fighting out of his opponent's reach. Onoki also hasn't displayed any jinton that A couldn't believably dodge (not forever, mind you). Sooner or later, it's more likely that A will punch a feeble guy like Onoki and turn him to dust than it is Onoki tags A and turns him to dust. The only way Onoki can win is if he purposefully out-ranges A, which would be out-of-character. Even then, the area-of-effect of jinton has never been its strong point; its potency is. If Onoki plays it too safe by keeping his distance, he's liable to get outlasted by A's bijuu level stamina considering the costly expenditure of jinton. But if he gets too close, he'll get red-misted by a buzz-saw like A. 

Onoki may have been able to lay his hands on Madara's _Susanoo_ five separate times while Madara was probably jobbing, but it's actually more arduous with a speedster like A. Onoki can't really delay him with doton either, cause of raiton superiority. The only way I think Onoki can win if he somehow touches A to weigh him down where he's too slow to dodge jinton. But I don't see how Onoki can lay a finger on A without getting shredded. I do think Onoki's doton bunshin are capable of weight manipulation, so it'd be safer to send those in. But A's so fast that he could probably dispatch them all before he's touched if he really amped up his speed due to the threat level. I'm not sure if A's shroud could counter weight manipulation due to raiton (it is doton nature after all). It's worked on A before, but that might only be because A let it. Even if Onoki won't get outright blitzed by version one, he doesn't have the feats to react to his version two. A is more likely to win due to match-up.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 25, 2015)

From 50 yards, is this even a joke? V2 decimates, what is there to debtate. People acting like ohnoki can react or that flight is even a fa tor? Where was his slight against Madara? Why didn't he just fly above Madara and jinton one shot him?

Such a frail old man is not reacting to Ay's top speed, nor can he do anything about it.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 25, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> More successful at what, exactly? Onoki didn't have chakra to kill them, therefore, if we go to a more successful at stalling the inevitable, i'd go with Ei, he pumps Bijuu level chakra and can dodge and block definitely more than Onoki. Also, we don't know if the blades would've bypassed his shroud when Chidori barely could stab him. Unless Susano'o blades were notably sharper.



At fighting them? Slowing them down with doton meant that Onoki could have at least taken out one or two of the clones with jinton. He had enough chakra to save Ei with a doton, release him from genjutsu and clearly had some chakra left to use a jinton, even if Tsunade hadn't pumped him. Ei's raiton shroud would have failed him if he was caught with a genjutsu, in which case, a Susano'o sword would have been able to pierce him. 



> Ei was caught only because he left his guard down. In fact, the entire fight he seemd worried by Tsunade, like the scan you provided, as he stopped to talk to her. He would've been caught by the Susano'o clones either way, but not until he were exhausted or his speed were decreasing. Those Susano'o clones were slow enough for Gaara to react to and for Tsunade to punch down. I don't see why the man that reacts to Amaterasu would have problem dodging. Blocking there doesn't mean he was having troubles dodging.



How do you know he stopped because he intended to talk to her? When he grabs that Susano'o sword and communicates with her, he isn't looking in her direction, he's looking at his opponent. It's only when she temporarily succumbs to her injury that _he looks in her direction_ and gets caught. If Susano'o clones can move fast enough to catch Ei in just that brief moment, then they were obviously swift. It would therefore make sense that Ei was struggling to dodge all of their attacks. It was five versus one, after all.

Tsunade had been stabbed by two Susano'o clones, so she clearly wasn't able to dodge all of their attacks. Part of the reason she was able to clobber that other clone is likely because Madara didn't anticipate that she would still be able to move after taking such a severe injury. As for Gaara - he has high reaction speed, and his sand is equally as swift, so I would expect him to be able to keep up with their attacks.​​


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## Thunder (Apr 25, 2015)

It's not just speed that was a factor there. _Fighting styles _were as well. Let's not downplay the fact A and Tsunade were forced to manhandle these clones close up (their taijutsu isn't geared towards dealing with multiple opponents at once), while Gaara is able to defend _and_ attack with chakra infused sand from any angle. 

Taking those points into consideration, I wouldn't argue A's speed is worthless against Ōnoki or something just because Ōnoki had better showings against Susano, when it was already established chapters ago that A needs his full power to breach _ribcage_ Susano. 

Ōnoki was a better match-up against Susano because he could evade their attacks with flight, manipulate the surrounding earth to form barriers and perform other tricks, weigh the clones down (not that hard to accomplish on an individual basis when you have the ability to zoom _around_ them and take their backs. Ōnoki can match Deidara in flight speed), and wipe them out with Jinton.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 25, 2015)

I agree, I just wanted to point out that Onoki fared better than Ei against Madara's bunshin.​​


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## Thunder (Apr 25, 2015)

Definitely, Godaime. 

Overall, I'd say Ōnoki looked the best against Edo Madara with Tsunade coming in second. Both of them possess some great support jutsu for a team battle and they seem to be the most experienced fighters in the group.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 25, 2015)

If Ohnoki could have taken any of his clones out with Jinton he would have done it already. He didn't though, and he shouldn't have been able to eventually manage to do so because he already admitted that he was about out of Chakra.

Jinton is a whole lot more costly than Ohnoki's other techniques given that he  could use that rock fist Jutsu, the added-weight rock Jutsu, the moving earth core Jutsu, and the ultra light-weight Jutsu _after_ he had noted that he'd used up too much Chakra to be able to perform Jinton during his battle with Mū _(1)_.

Take Ay out of the equation and that only gives Ohnoki as much Chakra as the rock fist Jutsu requires, but considering the Chakra cost disparity between that technique and Jinton there's no reason to think that had it not been for Ay the Tsuchikage would have just wiped out his set of clones. He still would have soon found himself confronting Madara clones with barely any Chakra once his weighted-rock technique wore off, and Ay may very well have lasted at least that long without succumbing to a Genjutsu if he hadn't been distracted by Tsunade.

I'm pretty sure that's what LostSelf means when he says we don't know who would've lasted longer (in a scenario where they weren't concerned with their teammates in addition to themselves).


I guess there's still the question of whether or not Ohnoki would have even let a teammate coughing out blood distract him from his own clones long enough for that to happen, though.

We only heard Ay shouting before getting caught when that happened, Ohnoki was still okay, so that could show that he was keeping his attention where it really needed to be during the fight, thereby demonstrating his experience/wisdom.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 26, 2015)

You know there's an interpretation of that scene where Onoki go crafty and used his double weight through the ground as an AoE to weight all the Susano.  

Regardless, right after doing that, he saved  Ei who was going to eat sword, and then he re-united the Gokage so they could finish all of the Madara's at once.  That was the best use of his time and energy.  Way better than weighting one, hitting it with a jinton beam, 5 times over.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 26, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> If Ohnoki could have taken any of his clones out with Jinton he would have done it already. He didn't though, and he shouldn't have been able to eventually manage to do so because he already admitted that he was about out of Chakra.
> 
> Jinton is a whole lot more costly than Ohnoki's other techniques given that he  could use that rock fist Jutsu, the added-weight rock Jutsu, the moving earth core Jutsu, and the ultra light-weight Jutsu _after_ he had noted that he'd used up too much Chakra to be able to perform Jinton during his battle with Mū _(1)_.



Jinton is obviously more costly, but thats no reason to assume he didn't have enough chakra to use one in that situation either. Unless you believe that Tsunade's chakra alone facilitated the massive jinton beam, then he must have had some chakra left to use it. He did note, after all, that he'd be pouring all of his remaining chakra into the final attack [1]. Onoki couldn't afford to haphazardly throw attacks at the clones - they were fast enough to catch Ei. I'd guess that they could dodge or counter regular jintons if he didn't impede their movements first.



> Take Ay out of the equation and that only gives Ohnoki as much Chakra as the rock fist Jutsu requires, but considering the Chakra cost disparity between that technique and Jinton there's no reason to think that had it not been for Ay the Tsuchikage would have just wiped out his set of clones. He still would have soon found himself confronting Madara clones with barely any Chakra once his weighted-rock technique wore off, and Ay may very well have lasted at least that long without succumbing to a Genjutsu if he hadn't been distracted by Tsunade.



For the record, I'm not insinuating that Onoki could have spat out a jinton big and powerful enough to wipe out all five clones, just that he was probably capable of one or two regular jinton cubes with what chakra he had left. The chakra he used for the Rock Fist Technique and Genjutsu Release didn't exhaust his reserves, he still had some chakra to spare afterwards. I think that he could have taken out one or two Susano'o clones before getting offed. Even if Ei had lasted longer than Onoki, he wouldn't have been able to inflict any damage. Although, given how quick the clones were, and that Ei had been seemingly thrusted into the ground with a Susano'o sword prior to being Genjutsu'd, I'd guess that he wasn't going to last much longer either.



> I'm pretty sure that's what LostSelf means when he says we don't know who would've lasted longer (in a scenario where they weren't concerned with their teammates in addition to themselves).



There's no guarantee who would have lasted longer (neither would have lasted long), true. However I think its fair to reason that Onoki would have ultimately fared better, because he could inflict damage, while Ei couldn't.



> I guess there's still the question of whether or not Ohnoki would have even let a teammate coughing out blood distract him from his own clones long enough for that to happen, though.



Regardless, Onoki's clones moved slowly, so his attention being briefly shifted to Tsunade is unlikely to have impeded him like it did Ei.​​


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## FlamingRain (Apr 26, 2015)

Ohnoki gives us the reason to assume such by admitting that he didn't have much Chakra left. That most likely means even a regular Jinton is out of the question because it requires a lot of Chakra as opposed to a little, as evidenced by the fact that Ohnoki was able to keep fighting even after he was unable to so much as form a Jinton to use on Gengetsu's clam (which is far smaller than even one Susano'o) without it fizzling out on him.

I don't really think a regular Jinton would work anyway because the clones apparently had access to Preta Path, which doesn't require Susano'o to move in order to be used. So it doesn't seem to me like Ohnoki could have really damaged them were they to have continued, and since he was already close to tiring out I think there's a fair chance Ay could have lasted even longer than him were he not to have been Genjutsu'd while he had his attention on Tsunade.


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 26, 2015)

Onoki is stronger point blank period


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## Rocky (Apr 26, 2015)

Possessing the better tools for putting down Susano'o (or combating Madara in general) does not make Onoki an overall better fighter than A. I agree with much of what FlamingRain said regarding how Onoki's experience keeping him focused played a major part in how things played out. 

The Tsuchikage's techniques are larger in scale and he has the destructive capacity to get rid of sturdier opponents than the Raikage can, but he's old, past his prime, and his back has the propensity to give out on him at the most unfortunate of times. Dust Release is the only reason he's even on the Mid Kage tier, and isn't something he can spam willy nilly. His weight manipulation techniques are interesting, but needing to use them in melee range takes away from their combat value (for someone who's old, past his prime, and has a back with the propensity to give out on him at the most unfortunate of times), in my opinion. 

I grant that A's offense isn't as immediately destructive as Onoki's, but the sheer amount of stamina he has allows him to operate at peak effectiveness for much longer than the old man ever could. Unavoidable speed coupled with limb-breaking strength is usually good enough to cripple or outright kill anyone without Susano'o-level defenses, but even when it isn't, A is one of the few guys that could consistently achieve victory by wearing an opponent down.

As for defense...Onoki doesn't really come close. While not at the level of his father, there aren't a whole lotta things that can actually damage the 4th Raikage, and A's Minato-like reflexes make actually hitting him with one of those things a difficult task. When you pour Raiton Chakra Mode into the mix, which enhances _both speed and durability_ even further, hurting this man becomes a nightmarish concept. 

...the same just can't be said of Onoki. I see him as slightly superior offensively while A is far superior defensively, making A the better fighter. Experience and intelligence could close the gap and make them equals, but in no way is Onoki _above_ the Raikage in my mind.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Apr 29, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> Onoki is stronger point blank period





Love your elaborate reasoning and sound logic.


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## Icegaze (Apr 30, 2015)

I think onoki can't catch Ei regardless the size of the Jinton unless he tricks him 
Bee a much slower ninja crossed a mountain range in 1 shunshin 
Onoki can't follow Ei shunshin wirh his eyes so laser dama won't be helping much since he physixally can't react to Ei avoiding him 
However Ei ain't the sharpest knife in the kitchen and would be fooled 

High diff onoki


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