# Is Kisame a Sannin level?



## Ryuzaki (Jul 25, 2015)

*Fight:* 1 vs. 1 against each sannin separately.
*Distance:* 30 m
*Location:* VotE
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Mindset:* IC
*Restrictions:* ET

Where do you rank him amongst the Sannin?


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 25, 2015)

I think he would lose to jiraiya & 0roto.

they both have boss level summoning, while he only summoned 4 small sharks.
then kusanagi & Jiraiyas hair are better tools than samehada in the particular match ups


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## Bonly (Jul 25, 2015)

Is he Sannin level? Personally not imo and I'd say that he'd lose to all of them. To make a long story short:

Orochi: Can avoid most of Kisame attacks and will eventually overwhelm Kisame eventually.
Jiraiya: Will make it to SM and will overwhelm Kisame.
Tsunade: Can heal from most(if not all) of his attacks, one hit can take him out whenever she does land the hit eventually, and The great Katsuyu-Sama for her soloing purposes.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 25, 2015)

He's Mid-kage level, which is where all the Sannin (bar Current Orochimaru) reside



> Oro Can avoid most of Kisame attacks and will eventually overwhelm Kisame eventually.


Couldn't react to Totsuka, arm taken off by pre-KN4 Naruto: Kisame paced with V1 Killer Bee and survived/yanked chakra from V2 Killer Bee


> Jiraiya: Will make it to SM and will overwhelm Kisame.


Depending on start distance and location- probably not. 


> Tsunade: Can heal from most(if not all) of his attacks, one hit can take him out whenever she does land the hit eventually, and The great Katsuyu-Sama for her soloing purposes.


Samehada absorbs Byakgou in CQC as easily as Bee's cloak, survived Afternoon Tiger & V2 Lariat, if a Perfect Jin can drown- she can


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 25, 2015)

Below the Sannin, which are High Kage level. He even admits that Jiraiya is just on another tier than him after all, and the Sannin are all on the same general level of power.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 25, 2015)

As was just said above, Kisame admitted that Jiraiya was in a different league already, so no he isn't at that level.

Of course he could still in theory just so happen to be well-equipped to defeat one of them- that's how he did so well with Killer Bee, who surpasses the Sannin- it just isn't likely.

Especially not since none of the Sannin fight largely by externally manifesting Chakra shrouds around themselves.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2015)

What's funny is that the Sannin are all horrendous match ups for Kisame. Each of them.

Tsunade focuses on taijutsu, which _canonically_ does not bode well for Kisame, and godslug, which itself fights mainly with acid. Her other specialty, medical ninjutsu, is regeneration used on herself and can't be eaten like a chakra shroud.

Orochimaru is probably better at elemental ninjutsu than most give him credit for, but even without his ninjutsu (arms) he's proven to be quite competent. Kisame can't absorb diamond-cutting blades, giant hydras, or neurotoxins. Or immortal zombies for that matter, but that's overkill. 

Jiraiya fights mostly through summons (Samehada can't eat giant frog kenjutsu), but there's also senjutsu (Samehada shouldn't eat sage chakra), and Kisame directly admitted inferiority to this member of the Sannin anyway, even if you don't believe they're equal.

Saying that any of them lose to Kisame is blatant underestimation imo.


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## Grimsley (Jul 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What's funny is that the Sannin are all horrendous match ups for Kisame. Each of them.
> 
> Tsunade focuses on taijutsu, which _canonically_ does not bode well for Kisame, and godslug, which itself fights mainly with acid. Her other specialty, medical ninjutsu, is regeneration used on herself and can't be eaten like a chakra shroud.
> 
> ...



good post i agree with u


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## Matty (Jul 25, 2015)

My thing is just because you don't beat the Sannin doesn't mean you aren't on their power level. To me with hype him and Sasori are the only one below the top 3 who can scratch the Sannin surface. They both are outclassed, mostly by the boss summons but to me Kisame is just a hair below them.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 25, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Below the Sannin, which are High Kage level. He even admits that Jiraiya is just on another tier than him after all, and the Sannin are all on the same general level of power.


Jiraiya & Tsunade aren't high kage level. That tier is reserved for ninja like SM Kabuto, Minato & MS Obito. 



> Tsunade focuses on taijutsu, which _canonically_ does not bode well for Kisame, and godslug, which itself fights mainly with acid. Her other specialty, medical ninjutsu, is regeneration used on herself and can't be eaten like a chakra shroud.


Her punches are chakra-enhanced, which is absorbed by Samehada. Multiple Cloaked strike attempts by Bee were absorbed and tanked by Kisame- and don't say Tsunade's pure physical strength is factor- because Bee's wasn't- and Kisame himself is a physical beast. 



> Orochimaru is probably better at elemental ninjutsu than most give him credit for, but even without his ninjutsu (arms) he's proven to be quite competent. Kisame can't absorb diamond-cutting blades, giant hydras, or neurotoxins. Or immortal zombies for that matter, but that's overkill.


If he didn't do it on panel, he can't use it. His elements begin and end in a wind variant that looked genin level at best in the Forest of Death.

Kisame can avoid the diamond cutter or slap it across the landscape with a monster blade slash.

Giant Hydra isn't doing shit with Samehada covering Kisame, and it's destroyed with Daikodan. 

Neurotoxins aren't putting down a man that survived Afternoon Tiger & V2 Lariat which are techniques that should've left him unconscious, fully paralyzed and a vegetable for life, it's a non-factor anyway- considering Orochimaru isn't going to abandon his vessel to achieve true form in open combat. 



> Jiraiya fights mostly through summons (Samehada can't eat giant frog kenjutsu), but there's also senjutsu (Samehada shouldn't eat sage chakra), and Kisame directly admitted inferiority to this member of the Sannin anyway, even if you don't believe they're equal.


SM Jiraiya is a very good matchup against Kisame, but he doesn't start in SM- and that's a huge problem against Kisame who by himself owns Jinchuriki that would stomp the shit out of base jiraiya. 



> Saying that any of them lose to Kisame is blatant underestimation imo.


Highly doubtful, Kisame was one of the strongest and most versatile ninja in the Akatsuki, an organization full of ninja that are comfortably capable of competing with the Sannin.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Her punches are chakra-enhanced, which is absorbed by Samehada. Multiple Cloaked strike attempts by Bee were absorbed and tanked by Kisame- and don't say Tsunade's pure physical strength is factor- because Bee's wasn't- and Kisame himself is a physical beast.



Tsunade doesn't wear a cloak to enhance her strength. The chakra explodes from her fist at the moment of contact, so it isn't as if the blade can absorb the power _before_ Kisame gets smashed like it did against B's sword. So in all likelihood, chakra enhanced strength will still be successful. 

Regardless, Kisame won't be ripping tailed beast chunks of chakra from Tsunade so that he can grow stronger himself and regenerate from her attacks. Her physical strength is still enough to at least hurt him, and the slug can still melt him. 



DaVizWiz said:


> Kisame conveniently gets around all these things that can't be absorbed



Yeah, you aren't convincing anybody. 

First off, Kisame isn't exceptionally fast, so I'm not going to accept "he evades" as a consistent defense against Kusanagi. Second, Daikodan doesn't have a feat, so why it automatically wins against the not-ninjutsu Hydra is beyond me. Lastly, neurotoxins are completely different in function than Lariat or Hirodura, it it isn't like he was in fantastic shape after those two techniques anyway.



DaVizWiz said:


> SM Jiraiya is a very good matchup against Kisame, but he doesn't start in SM- and that's a huge problem against Kisame who by himself owns Jinchuriki that would stomp the shit out of base jiraiya.



That's cool, but I don't particularly care how Kisame did against B because Jiraiya fights nothing like B. Kisame can barley absorb any of base Jiraiya's jutsu, which present a problem because Kisame is _completely reliant on that.
_
The Gama Toads alone would trouble Kisame. With them as distractions, Jiraiyai should be able to enter Sage Mode without issue.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 25, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Jiraiya & Tsunade aren't high kage level. That tier is reserved for ninja like SM Kabuto, Minato & MS Obito.


Jiraiya could have defeated Nagato with prior knowledge and Tsunade could hold her own against five Susano'o Madara Clones on top of forcing the original to use a Mokuton Bushin substitution. They are High Kage Tier. SM Kabuto, Minato, and MS Obito are in Top Tier, which is above High Kage. Hashirama, BSM Naruto and Madara are on Demi-God Tier, and all Juubi Jins, EOS Naruto and Sasuke, and Eight Gated Guy and Kaguya are God Tiers.


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## ~M~ (Jul 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What's funny is that the Sannin are all horrendous match ups for Kisame. Each of them.
> 
> Tsunade focuses on taijutsu, which _canonically_ does not bode well for Kisame, and godslug, which itself fights mainly with acid. Her other specialty, medical ninjutsu, is regeneration used on herself and can't be eaten like a chakra shroud.
> 
> ...



I disagree with your theory that Tsunade's chakra can't be consumed, in fact I think it would very easily be done since she stores so much. Out of the 3 I think she loses frankly mid-dif. The other 2 win. 

Also can she really punch as hard with her chakra drained? I know she is 'naturally strong' but the connection between physical strength and chakra applies even to Might Gai and Lee.


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## ARGUS (Jul 25, 2015)

He is definitely sannin level, sometimes he is even stronger than them 

he beats tsunade, he beats orochimaru, and can give jiraiya quite a good fight, as the latter would need SM 

his feats against bee and guy put him on a very high level, to an extent where his part 1 statement holds no merit at all.


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## ARGUS (Jul 26, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He's Mid-kage level, which is where all the Sannin (bar Current Orochimaru) reside
> 
> Couldn't react to Totsuka, arm taken off by pre-KN4 Naruto: Kisame paced with V1 Killer Bee and survived/yanked chakra from V2 Killer Bee
> Depending on start distance and location- probably not.
> Samehada absorbs Byakgou in CQC as easily as Bee's cloak, survived Afternoon Tiger & V2 Lariat, if a Perfect Jin can drown- she can



Lol then theres this, 
water dome + blitzing kisame + 1000 feeding sharks is far too much for the likes of tsunade and orochimaru,
jiraiya is in deep shit when he gets caught too


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## ~M~ (Jul 26, 2015)

It depends on which Orochimaru we're talking about because I feel at points he's stronger than Jiraya. He's a crafty bastard with intelligence and survival feats off the chart. He's anything but consistent though.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 26, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jiraiya could have defeated Nagato with prior knowledge and Tsunade could hold her own against five Susano'o Madara Clones on top of forcing the original to use a Mokuton Bushin substitution. They are High Kage Tier. SM Kabuto, Minato, and MS Obito are in Top Tier, which is above High Kage. Hashirama, BSM Naruto and Madara are on Demi-God Tier, and all Juubi Jins, EOS Naruto and Sasuke, and Eight Gated Guy and Kaguya are God Tiers.



He'd win against Pain and that's with extreme difficulty, but no way he defeats Nagato on his own.


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## Turrin (Jul 26, 2015)

Kisame's power fluctuates based on the amount of chakra he's recently absorb from his enemy. If he hasn't absorbed any chakra recently than he's at a level where according to Itachi P1-Kakashi can give him problems, so I dobut he'd even be able to beat Tsunade. But if he's just absorbed a large amount of chakra, like when he absorbed Hachibi's chakra before facing Gai, he's more than strong enough to potentially defeat Tsunade or even P1-Orochimaru; he'd still likely loose to J-man though as natural energy is natural foil to him. Likewise if he fights enemies with a-lot of chakra for him to absorb like against Jinchuuriki, Bijuu, or characters like the Raikages, he can easily be as dangerous to these characters or more than a Sannin [depending on which one]. 

So the guy doesn't really have a set "level", but more of a range of effectiveness depending on circumstances.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 26, 2015)

If you give Kisame full knowledge and start him with post Hachibi absorption chakra, he would be very happy happy with himself if he could take any of the Sannin any percent of the time.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Saying that any of them lose to Kisame is blatant underestimation imo.



Kisame's ninjutsu power/scale is  them.

And he'll win any direct ninjutsu clash to the absorption missile.

And in the waterdome, he's _hopelessly_ faster than them and their summons. 

Then tack on auto-regeneration, absorption, and sensing. 

You're the one underestimating Kisame here.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 26, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> He'd win against Pain and that's with extreme difficulty, but no way he defeats Nagato on his own.


Defeating the Six Paths of Pain would make Jiraiya solidly High Kage, wouldn't it? Especially since Pain's Akatsuki's strongest member.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jul 26, 2015)

Tsunade's base physical strength is at least good enough to lift up and 'use' Gamabunta's knife. Even if Samehada could absorb the chakra from her fist, the resulting impact would still likely be more than it can handle.


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## ~M~ (Jul 26, 2015)

I can't see how Tsunade handles Water Prison well

He only lost to Killer B in it because lol plot this guy tastes better gonna get me sum fresh puss


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 26, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Defeating the Six Paths of Pain would make Jiraiya solidly High Kage, wouldn't it? Especially since Pain's Akatsuki's strongest member.



Yeah, he'd be able to win against 6 Paths of Pain w/full knowledge.


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## Rukia Kurosaki (Jul 26, 2015)

Am I the only one who has SM Jiraiya on another level to Oro/Tsunade?


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## Matty (Jul 26, 2015)

Rukia325 said:


> Am I the only one who has SM Jiraiya on another level to Oro/Tsunade?



Nah I think most people would agree. I feel like SM Jiraiya and Oro with ET as same level with Tsunade solidly below them. She has katsuyu which kind of fucks anyone over for just dismissing her. To me she is not all too impressive besides her regen and Katsuyu. She always has struck me as a kakuzu level ninja. Extreme strength with incredible durability she just happens to have the queen of solos.

She is Kisame, Sasori level while the other two are closer to Obito/Nagato but they are still pretty far below that.

Just my opinion of course


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 26, 2015)

Rukia325 said:


> Am I the only one who has SM Jiraiya on another level to Oro/Tsunade?



Most people would have agreed with you until Oro got Hashirama cell body and Edo Tensei Hokage back.


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## Rukia Kurosaki (Jul 26, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> She is Kisame, Sasori level while the other two are closer to Obito/Nagato but they are still pretty far below that.
> 
> Just my opinion of course



I think you're overrating Orochimaru too much. He was low diffed twice by Itachi, once by Sasuke and Deidara was quite confident he could kill him.

The way I see it Obito/Prime Nagato > Pain > SM Jiraiya/Itachi > Orochimaru/Tsunade


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## Rukia Kurosaki (Jul 26, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Most people would have agreed with you until Oro got Hashirama cell body



Based on what though? I can't remember him doing anything since getting a zetsu body.

Aren't zetsu's fodder anyway? 100,000 of them in a war couldn't do much.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 26, 2015)

em senpai said:


> I can't see how Tsunade handles Water Prison well
> 
> He only lost to Killer B in it because lol plot this guy tastes better gonna get me sum fresh puss



win

win

One reason is that inside the dome, Kisame still gets up close and personal to attack.  Which is bad because...



Atlantic Storm said:


> Tsunade's base physical strength is at least good enough to lift up and 'use' Gamabunta's knife. Even if Samehada could absorb the chakra from her fist, the resulting impact would still likely be more than it can handle.



^Of that right there.

Bee caught Kisame off guard several time in that fight, and grappled with him.  That barely flew with Bee, and it wouldn't fly with Tsunade.  It wouldn't fly with Oro either, who could wrap him up and bite him with the cursed mark.

For something stupider that I could actually see Kishimoto doing, this kind of  would probably pop break disrupt _do something bad_ to the water dome.


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## Ersa (Jul 26, 2015)

Generally no, I'd put him a step below SM Jiraiya and Zetsu Orochimaru. He can contend with Tsunade and possibly defeat her maybe but that's about his limit.

However his skillset allows him to hang with opponents that the Sannin might struggle with.


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## ~M~ (Jul 26, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> win
> 
> win
> 
> ...



Though it's a manga and this may not apply: when you're in water your punching force is drastically reduced because we're in the medium of water rather than air and it takes drastically larger force to move your arm which is aero not hydrodynamic but furthermore the restrictive force of water. 

Kisame gets a boost in speed and agility (sensing chakra) while Tsundade can neither breath nor swim as fast as a shark. Killer B is a Bijuu, major major MAJOR player, separate thread entirely but could Tsunade even taken him? Anyways there was that weird suction cup thing yes, so how does one hold kisame... 

Orocimaru and Jiraya are not CQC and have many methods of attempting an escape so it's not as relevant a factor but Tsunade is exclusively CQC


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## Rocky (Jul 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Kisame's ninjutsu power/scale is  them.



_Nahhh_.



Strategoob said:


> And he'll win any direct ninjutsu clash to the absorption missile.



...and as I went over, this isn't the biggest of problems for them because they don't really do the whole "ninjutsu clashing" thing. Their trump cards are all heightened forms. 

Jiraiya's the only one likely to be throwing around giant ninjutsu, but he isn't likely to try and clash a big fire jutsu with a big Suiton. He'd just block Daikodan, and he has the genjutsu to take Kisame out once he figures out the absorption thing (which will likely happen before Sage Mode).



Strategoob said:


> And in the waterdome, he's _hopelessly_ faster than them and their summons.



No argument here.

It is debatable whether or not he can even use it without B's power though, and even if he can it doesn't auto-beat the Sannin. 

Jiraiya has sound-based jutsu that might work in the water, has senjutsu to prevent his chakra from being absorbed, and isn't too troubled by water in the first place because he uses _frogs. _

Orochimaru's Extendo-Kusanagi and big snakes still work. He could possibly swim to the ground and tunnel with Manda too. 

Tsunade's the iffy one because I don't know if she can get ahold of Kisame, but it would then depend on how Katsuyu functioned in the waterdome. That said, I think she'd win before waterdome was ever a factor. If her strength doesn't get him, Ranshinshō just might.


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## Matty (Jul 26, 2015)

Rukia325 said:


> I think you're overrating Orochimaru too much. He was low diffed twice by Itachi, once by Sasuke and Deidara was quite confident he could kill him.
> 
> The way I see it Obito/Prime Nagato > Pain > SM Jiraiya/Itachi > Orochimaru/Tsunade



I'm not overrating him. I think you may be underrating him if anything

To me Healthy Itachi is above Sannin level and SM Jiraiya is about equal to Oro with perfected ET. You can make a case for either


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## Jad (Jul 26, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Tsunade's base physical strength is at least good enough to lift up and 'use' Gamabunta's knife. Even if Samehada could absorb the chakra from her fist, the resulting impact would still likely be more than it can handle.





The Pirate on Wheels said:


> ^Of that right there.


It was confirmed that it was Chakra that allowed Tsunade to lift that sword.



knight504 said:


> Konoha Thousand Leaves Collection #24
> 
> It would seem Tsunade's "outrageous strength" completely ignores the laws of nature!! The challenge to common sense that is her power is due in no small part to her artful chakra control and fine-tuning. To give things a name, by instantly collecting chakra into her fist and fingers, she obtains a power of destruction bodily strength alone cannot achieve.





Jad said:


> > And she can handle Gamabunta's huge dosu** with absurd ease...?!
> 
> 
> This was also said in the databook underneath the image of her lifting the tanto knife underneath the explanation of chakra strength that knight504 posted.


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## Icegaze (Jul 26, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> *Fight:* 1 vs. 1 against each sannin separately.
> *Distance:* 30 m
> *Location:* VotE
> *Knowledge:* Manga
> ...



the fact that you have to restrict one of the sannin abilities already tells you something

he is beneath all of them

tsunade vs kisame is the only match I care to discuss. Jad, Rocky..would like to debate with both of you mostly 

I say she beats kisame. 

Granted her strength is chakra enhanced therefore samehada could absorb it. 

however cant tsunade quite easily take said sword from kisame due to her better taijutsu skill, healing and all round better cqc performance?

I really don't think with knowledge kisame would actually ever engage tsunade in cqc. However what jutsu does kisame have that even slightly suggest that it would be enough to put her down?

Both their levels really fluctuate. tsuande depends on how much chakra she has saved and kisame depending on if he just syphoned bijuu chakra 

kisame would win a stamina contest though. 

what would win the match in my opinion is katsuyu. which would prevent kisame from absorbing tsunade chakra. as katsuyu did the same against shinju tree .

tsunade gets some katsuyu goo on her and can proceed to engage kisame in cqc which utterly murders him


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## rubberguy (Jul 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> the fact that you have to restrict one of the sannin abilities already tells you something
> 
> he is beneath all of them
> 
> ...



funny post. When the restriction doesn't have anything to do with the other sannin and you seems to think oro with ET is on the same level as the other sannin. With ET hokage oro would stomp both jiraiya and tsunade together.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 26, 2015)

> Tsunade doesn't wear a cloak to enhance her strength. The chakra explodes from her fist at the moment of contact, so it isn't as if the blade can absorb the power _before_ Kisame gets smashed like it did against B's sword. So in all likelihood, chakra enhanced strength will still be successful.


It doesn't matter, the blade actively absorbs the chakra of the ninja, assuming she attempted hitting Kismae- her strike would make direct contact with Samehada and nothing would happen- the chakra explosion would be absorbed as easily as Samehada ate through a Fireball. 

V1 Killer Bee couldn't hurt him- Tsunade doesn't have a snowball's chance of striking him in CQC. 



> Regardless, Kisame won't be ripping tailed beast chunks of chakra from Tsunade so that he can grow stronger himself and regenerate from her attacks. Her physical strength is still enough to at least hurt him, and the slug can still melt him.


No, it's not. Killer Bee's physical strength wasn't enough to hurt him, Kisame has super strength himself, and the man tanked Morning Peacock. 



> First off, Kisame isn't exceptionally fast, so I'm not going to accept "he evades" as a consistent defense against Kusanagi. Second, Daikodan doesn't have a feat, so why it automatically wins against the not-ninjutsu Hydra is beyond me. Lastly, neurotoxins are completely different in function than Lariat or Hirodura, it it isn't like he was in fantastic shape after those two techniques anyway.


Yes, Kisame is very fast, hence him side-stepping V1 Killer Bee and ripping his cloak off in a blitz attempt from under 10m. 

None of the Sannin are faster than Base Killer Bee, let alone V1. 

Base & V1 Killer Bee were being outperformed by Kisame in close quarters.  



> That's cool, but I don't particularly care how Kisame did against B because Jiraiya fights nothing like B. Kisame can barley absorb any of base Jiraiya's jutsu, which present a problem because Kisame is _completely reliant on that.
> _
> The Gama Toads alone would trouble Kisame. With them as distractions, Jiraiyai should be able to enter Sage Mode without issue.


Jiraiya's only option is Yomi Numa, and that's moved through with Subterranean Voyage. Everything else is dodged, tanked or slash-absorbed and Kisame continues to pace after him. 

You're assuming he'd attempt summoning any of them, considering he has limited to no knowledge on Kisame, only canonically summons when his opponent summons, distance and location is major factor considering he's slower than Kisame in base and you can't summon in every location. Kisame would kill the summons, so as long as Jiraiya is comfortable with them losing their lives (which he's not at all), I guess he gets the distraction needed to enter SM- and from there- he can still lose to Kisame with Daikodan & Water dome which is brought out the moment Kisame is wounded badly.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 26, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> _before_
> 
> _before_
> 
> One reason is that inside the dome, Kisame still gets up close and personal to attack.  Which is bad because...



Is he trying to _capture_ the Sannin like he was Bee?

Otherwise, he can hammer them with Daikoden or 1000 sharks in the dome.

Which puts all the Sannin in an extremely difficult situation.


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## Icegaze (Jul 26, 2015)

rubberguy said:


> funny post. When the restriction doesn't have anything to do with the other sannin and you seems to think oro with ET is on the same level as the other sannin. With ET hokage oro would stomp both jiraiya and tsunade together.



 
oro with ET must be able to use the jutsu musnt he?

always this implies oro puts the souls of the kage in zetsu body to increase the precision of the jutsu 

your post is a lot funnier. are you a new poster?


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## Icegaze (Jul 26, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> It doesn't matter, the blade actively absorbs the chakra of the ninja, assuming she attempted hitting Kismae- her strike would make direct contact with Samehada and nothing would happen- the chakra explosion would be absorbed as easily as Samehada ate through a Fireball.



cant she just take his sword? considering base gai did so without much trouble. this is the same lady slapping to the ground ET Rinnegan madara moukuton clone. I don't see how one would put kisame cqc skills above 5 rinnegan clones 



> V1 Killer Bee couldn't hurt him- Tsunade doesn't have a snowball's chance of striking him in CQC


. 

V1 bee doesn't hit nearly as hard as tsunade though. he is faster sure but also concerned with dodging. tsunade can take a samehada slash to the gut. then punch kisame face in and kill him



> No, it's not. Killer Bee's physical strength wasn't enough to hurt him, Kisame has super strength himself, and the man tanked Morning Peacock.



both are horrendously weaker than tsunade. as far as physical strength is concerned



> Yes, Kisame is very fast, hence him side-stepping V1 Killer Bee and ripping his cloak off in a blitz attempt from under 10m.



tsunade is very fast. after Mei suiton which you have hyped to the ends of the earth she kicked madara to the ground. she jumped that length in 1 panel


> None of the Sannin are faster than Base Killer Bee, let alone V1.



ok. that's true. not like they need to be faster to hit kisame. considering the only person which would require physical speed is tsunade. who wouldn't have to dodge kisame attacks



> Base & V1 Killer Bee were being outperformed by Kisame in close quarters.



both of which are less dangerous than tsunade in cqc 



> Jiraiya's only option is Yomi Numa, and that's moved through with Subterranean Voyage. Everything else is dodged, tanked or slash-absorbed and Kisame continues to pace after him.



odd u seem to forget FCD



> You're assuming he'd attempt summoning any of them, considering he has limited to no knowledge on Kisame, only canonically summons when his opponent summons, distance and location is major factor considering he's slower than Kisame in base and you can't summon in every location. Kisame would kill the summons, so as long as Jiraiya is comfortable with them losing their lives (which he's not at all), I guess he gets the distraction needed to enter SM- and from there- he can still lose to Kisame with Daikodan & Water dome which is brought out the moment Kisame is wounded badly.



he did when he saw the rinnegan. he would have no issues summoning against the likes of kisame

not that he would need to

water dome- comically countered with toad gourd prison 
daikodan- could just get on a toad and jump away from it. seeing the distance gamaken jumped to reach to juubi.seems an easy task 

1000 sharks- well doton wall? or if in SM goemon should do


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## LostSelf (Jul 26, 2015)

Sannin is not a level. And if it's a level, it goes from Tsunade's mid-kage to Orochimaru's near god-tier level. So then, yes. He would be. But the huge differences between the weakest member and the strongest is too big.

Kisame can beat Tsunade with his insane chakra stealing, high speed advantage, drowning and thousands of sharks powerful enough to tear his own durable body apart.

In a fight, Katsuyu would fall victim to that chakra stealing teaming up with sharks. And i don't see Tsunade countering either, not underwater.

Jiraiya and Orochimaru are more tricky. But i see Jiraiya as one of his worst matchups. Oro not that much, while Tsunade has it hard against him.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 26, 2015)

There is a "Sannin level".

It's what's referred to when only considering Orochimaru's personal unique repertoire and not the Edo Tensei'd Hokages.

Case in point:



Ryuzaki said:


> *Restrictions:* ET
> 
> Where do you rank him amongst the Sannin?


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## LostSelf (Jul 26, 2015)

Then that'd be nerfed Orochimaru. Because Edo Tensei should be a part of his jutsus as much as Gamabunta and Katsuyu are a part of Jiraiya and Tsuna's.

But if that's so, then fair enough. However, i see Sage Jiraiya more powerful than Tsunade and Orochimaru without ET.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 26, 2015)

"Sannin level" is upper Mid Kage. 

Like base Jiraiya and Orochimaru. (And War Tsunade.)

p2 Orochimaru became God tier.

Jiraiya with several minutes of prep becomes lower High Kage.

Rusty Tsunade was Low Kage.

So the Sannin vary wildly in level throughout the manga.

But "Sannin level," on this forum, IMO means upper Mid Kage.


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## Matty (Jul 26, 2015)

Probably going to agree that it is mid to upper mid kage since they vary so widely. I think it's important though that we also consider hype in the equation of if he is or not. They have incredible hype and I think that is something that, even though they vary during the course of everything, they always had the same hype. So you kind of have to combine overall power, feats and hype

Obito is above the Sannin, but he has no hype leading up to his unmasking since no one even knew he was alive. Hearing someone talk about the sannin would likely make you tremble whereas hearing obito Uchiha wouldn't do shit... Yanno, until he whooped the living piss out of you


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 26, 2015)

> cant she just take his sword? considering base gai did so without much trouble. this is the same lady slapping to the ground ET Rinnegan madara moukuton clone. I don't see how one would put kisame cqc skills above 5 rinnegan clones


No, she can't, because Killer Bee couldn't take it from Kisame

and the sword actively protects itself with spike expulsion, bending itself, growing a shark mouth and absorbing the chakra of whomever is around it- let alone touching it. 



> V1 bee doesn't hit nearly as hard as tsunade though. he is faster sure but also concerned with dodging. tsunade can take a samehada slash to the gut. then punch kisame face in and kill him


It's not about whether or not he hit hard enough, the man was armed with blades which would've killed Kisame if they hit their mark. 

No, a Samehada slash would result in her being sent a considerable distance. 



> both are horrendously weaker than tsunade. as far as physical strength is concerned


Not even remotely true. The force of Kisame's blade slash (30% Clone) created a massive shock wave, Base Killer Bee's lariat out-performed the 4th Raikage's, who was holding up a V3 Susano with one arm.



> tsunade is very fast. after Mei suiton which you have hyped to the ends of the earth she kicked madara to the ground. she jumped that length in 1 panel


She's got some eye opening feats, but her in-battle efficiency with speed wasn't great. She was the only Kage to get severely wounded multiple times by Madara and his clones, even Onoki was more efficient with his speed- are you arguing Onoki is faster than V1 Killer Bee?



> ok. that's true. not like they need to be faster to hit kisame. considering the only person which would require physical speed is tsunade. who wouldn't have to dodge kisame attacks


Perhaps you're not understanding- why would Kisame attack when he can steadily absorb her chakra with Samehada while dancing?  

What will Tsunade do after she takes a slash? Punch him without chakra enhancement? Samehada absorbs the chakra expulsion in her fist and Kisame slashes her again, and again, and again- until she doesn't have limbs or a head.  


> odd u seem to forget FCD


Yes, FCD is obviously a solid option against a dude who survived V2 Lariat & Afternoon Tiger. 

That's also a very IC jutsu for Jiraiya to use on a single ninja- wait no it's not. 



> he did when he saw the rinnegan. he would have no issues summoning against the likes of kisame


No, he summoned a toad when a giant multi-headed dog was summoned in front of him- after he'd dealt with a giant lobster. 



> water dome- comically countered with toad gourd prison
> daikodan- could just get on a toad and jump away from it. seeing the distance gamaken jumped to reach to juubi.seems an easy task


I'm sorry? Are you suggesting Kisame wouldn't see him enter the gourd? 

Are you suggesting he can't just summon dozens of Mizu Bunshin or sharks to find/hunt for Jiraiya in the dome?

Jiraiya is dodging Daikodan.... with a frog leap? You understand it's a guided missile technique? 



> 1000 sharks- well doton wall? or if in SM goemon should do


He doesn't have a doton wall.


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## rubberguy (Jul 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> oro with ET must be able to use the jutsu musnt he?
> 
> always this implies oro puts the souls of the kage in zetsu body to increase the precision of the jutsu
> 
> your post is a lot funnier. are you a new poster?



are you saying oro can't use ET or he can't use it always? If yes, then your first post about the restriction makes no sense. (english might not be your first language but the "always" in your post is not rightly placed or rightly punctuated) I don't think you need to ask if am a new poster unless that's a rhetorical question, you can see the year i joined with the number of posts.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 26, 2015)

Kisame at his baseline strength (i.e., without stealing chakra) is a bit weaker than the Sannin.

However, with chakra-stealing, he has the ability to beat any of them; it just depends how the fight is set up and how it plays out. I would estimate Kisame having the decisive edge over Tsunade, in a fair encounter, but his chances against Jiraiya and Orochimaru are much more ambiguous (like Kisame himself said of taking on Jiraiya).

So I'd say he evens out around Sannin-level, but his strength and stamina is widely variable (based on the chakra he steals); he's not consistently weaker, equal to, or stronger, although he can be any of the three--circumstances permitting.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 27, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Though it's a manga and this may not apply: when you're in water your punching force is drastically reduced because we're in the medium of water rather than air and it takes drastically larger force to move your arm which is aero not hydrodynamic but furthermore the restrictive force of water.
> 
> Kisame gets a boost in speed and agility (sensing chakra) while Tsunade can neither breath nor swim as fast as a shark. Killer B is a Bijuu, major major MAJOR player, separate thread entirely but could Tsunade even taken him? Anyways there was that weird suction cup thing yes, so how does one hold kisame...
> 
> Orocimaru and Jiraya are not CQC and have many methods of attempting an escape so it's not as relevant a factor but Tsunade is exclusively CQC



I think non-water ninja should move slower in the water, but sometimes they move incredibly fast.  I don't know if that's just because Naruto was KN0, or he's just a good swimmer, or if Sasuke was slowed and Naruto wasn't, or Kishi's just selective about it.  

Water also conducts shock waves better.  So her explosive chakra punch could be amplified.  Though like you said, this is a manga, and I'm not sure how much of that would apply either.  Guy's blew the water away, instead of being carried by it.

I do think of the Sannin, Tsunade has the hardest match against maximum Kisame, though she wins comfortably if the situation isn't stacked against her.  I'm not sure how Katsuya might play into it either.  She might be bigger than the water dome or offer an escape.  It depends on how her options pan out.  If she hits Kisame when he comes in to drain her, he'll die.  If Katsuya is an escape card, or could hold Kisame, that should work too.  If she can pop the bubble, or has shockwaves, those could work.  If you don't see any of them working, and Kisame stays away, she could drown.  

I think Tsunade can take Bee.  

I've made some arguments for .  I elaborate on her (and the other Sannin's) counter to speedsters under the  section in the post about Ei.  Specifically, I think Katsuyu gives her a goopy field advantage over them.  In partial transformation, it becomes a brawl, and in a brawl she wins.  Against a full transformation, she can toss them around too, the same way Sage Naruto tossed around the Kyuubi.  But yeah, that's for another thread.


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

rubberguy said:


> are you saying oro can't use ET or he can't use it always? If yes, then your first post about the restriction makes no sense. (english might not be your first language but the "always" in your post is not rightly placed or rightly punctuated) I don't think you need to ask if am a new poster unless that's a rhetorical question, you can see the year i joined with the number of posts.




i am sayign jiriaya can stop him from using ET all together or simply toad gourd the shit out of the coffins before they ever become an issue. 

ET doesnt suddenly put orochimaru above jiriaya 

also summonign hashirama would just mean hashirama murks orochimaru if he feels like it

and i do need to ask if you are a new poster by the quality of your post


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## ThunderCunt (Jul 27, 2015)

He ain't winning against Oro or J-man, I doubt he can win against Tsunade if she takes the battle seriously.


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

> DaVizWiz said:
> 
> 
> > No, she can't, because Killer Bee couldn't take it from Kisame
> ...


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## Turrin (Jul 27, 2015)

At the very beginning of the manga Kishi obviously intended Orochimaru to be main antagonist of the series and the power structure is initially set up around that. Team Sannin are set up as equally the strongest shinobi in the verse, that only another member can defeat. A Sannin is established as being stronger than even Old-Hiruzen who is in turn stronger than all the other Kages, and the only one who could possible draw with a Sannin was the strongest of all Shinobi, Prime-Hiruzen. But when Kishi introduced Akatsuki and the scope of the series became largerhe course corrected, and no longer was Orochimaru the main antagonist of the series, hence why basically the entire power structure established in the Chunin Exams was retecon'd. So to me believing the Sannin all being equal is no different than still believing Prime-Hiruzen is the strongest Shinobi and > Hashirama. In reality though ever since the end of the Chunin Exams Kishi has always portrayed them as specifically not equal ether due to one or more being weakened, or later revealing a GoaT mode for Jiriaya and than even later powering up Orochimaru significantly.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 27, 2015)

Turrin said:


> At the very beginning of the manga Kishi obviously intended Orochimaru to be main antagonist of the series and the power structure is initially set up around that. Team Sannin are set up as equally the strongest shinobi in the verse, that only another member can defeat. A Sannin is established as being stronger than even Old-Hiruzen who is in turn stronger than all the other Kages, and the only one who could possible draw with a Sannin was the strongest of all Shinobi, Prime-Hiruzen. But when Kishi introduced Akatsuki and the scope of the series became largerhe course corrected, and no longer was Orochimaru the main antagonist of the series, hence why basically the entire power structure established in the Chunin Exams was retecon'd. So to me believing the Sannin all being equal is no different than still believing Prime-Hiruzen is the strongest Shinobi and > Hashirama. In reality though ever since the end of the Chunin Exams Kishi has always portrayed them as specifically not equal ether due to one or more being weakened, or later revealing a GoaT mode for Jiriaya and than even later powering up Orochimaru significantly.



Itachi/AL were set up as the main villains IMO.

For Sasuke/Naruto respectively.

Orochimaru hyped Itachi to be above his level.

So the Sannin were still going to be stepping stones.


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## Rocky (Jul 27, 2015)

A few things:



Turrin said:


> In reality though ever since the end of the Chunin Exams Kishi has always portrayed them as specifically not equal ether due to one or more being weakened



When people claim them to be equal, they're claiming that they are as such when _not_ handicapped. 



Turrin said:


> or later revealing a GoaT mode for Jiriaya



Jiraiya probably had Sage Mode in Part I. Like, "Toad Sage."


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## ~M~ (Jul 27, 2015)

Sage mode was hardly an asspull considering Jiraya was entirely based around the concept of oils and toads. His abilities fit in very neatly amongst the Sanin


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## FlamingRain (Jul 27, 2015)

Implications for the equality of the Sannin as evidenced by a Sansukumi-relationship continued far past the point where Hashirama began stealing Hiruzen's thunder, so it is different.

_Hashirama_ was retconned, not _everybody_.

That is why the second databook which came _after_ the Chūnin Exams concluded brings up the thing about the Sannin themselves being the only ones who can fight against the Sannin (the existence of other people who can take them on, like Itachi, does not negate how the particular statement implies they are interchangeable), and why their summons are said to fight on equal footing in the same databook.

That is why upon seeing Jiraiya enter Sage Mode Nagato says the Prodigal _Three_ have unique powers (Orochimaru's personal trump card soon revealed to be snake-related in Yamata and Tsunade's Byakugō later on revealed to be linked to the slugs, like Jiraiya's Sage Mode is related to the toads), and why Jiraiya's third databook entry refers to them as a Sansukumi again.

It's probably also why Mount Myōboku, Ryūchi Cave, and Shikkotsu Woods are _equally_ revered.

The Sannin being equal doesn't mandate that they all be in a state characteristic of their true power contemporaneously during the course of the manga because a character's diminished power is not what's considered to be representative of them in the minds of either the casual reader or resident of the Narutoverse- it's their general strength _when healthy_ that is their true strength.


If it was ever retconned, it sure as heck wasn't after the Chūnin Exams.


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

ill follow up what flamming rain said by reminding you all that Sm got mostly rectonned after jiriaya death. Frog katas sensing and all that

what jiriaya displayed in SM is highly impressive 

however note orochimaru similarly snake/dragon related transformation never really got the chance to do anything

however one can easily assume, unless you have an easy way to beat him, i.e totsuka trolling 

his yamata mode can be as threatening as SM 

same way byakuyo can be as threatening as SM. 

it really depends on type match ups. 

Kisame would have an easier time with tsunade compared to jiriaya or orochimaru 

1) orochimaru uses poison, so cant regen from that. 2 orochimaru techs mostly cant be absorbed 
2) jiriaya can use sound ninjutsu or genjutsu so again cant be absorbed 

However some characters its much much much better to be tsunade than either of these 2

eg: against 5 madara clones. tsunade or orochimaru would casually outlast jiraiya


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## StarWanderer (Jul 27, 2015)

He is on a Sannin level, he comfortably beats Tsunade and Orochimaru.


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

odd how he needed hachibi chakra to be on that level 
odd how he admits different

also kishi has so obviously pointed out samehada grows bigger the more chakra it absorbs 

and kisame grows stronger the more chakra he absorbs 

all sannin dispatch him. and remind him why he should be afraid


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 27, 2015)

No.
With Bijuu level chakra he is above them though. 

Kisame is like Gai in that sense. Under certain circumstances, his power exceeds certain people who are normally above him.


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## ~M~ (Jul 27, 2015)

However Gai's 'circumstances' require he die or damage himself, Kisame has no such restriction. Against chakra heavy opponents he has a great advantage that's not particularly a 'circumstance' it is a trait.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 27, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Sage mode was hardly an asspull considering Jiraya was entirely based around the concept of oils and toads. His abilities fit in very neatly amongst the Sanin



All of the Sannin were modeled after sage mode.  Incomplete sage modes, but still.  All of their super moves and "special chakra" involving seals and tattoos which boost moves.  Oro being an inhuman snake monster, and developing cursed seal to use sage power when his body couldn't handle it.  Jiraiya gives himself face tattoos as part of his ritual, and partially transformed, as well as needing to fuse with frogs because he wasn't perfect.  Even Tsunade's seal and tattoos turned out to be her workaround to accessing the available branches of Hashirama's jutsu she could use without inheriting mokuton or his level of stamina.  Byako referring to the curly white hair of the Bhudda, and Hashirama's sage arts being Buddha related.

It was all explained and executed poorly and inconsistently, but looking at it as a whole, you can see the main idea and and the connections.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 27, 2015)

em senpai said:


> However Gai's 'circumstances' require he die or damage himself, Kisame has no such restriction. Against chakra heavy opponents he has a great advantage that's not particularly a 'circumstance' it is a trait.



Thats what I'm saying. If Kisame can syphon hefty amounts of chakra from his opponent, his power output exceeds the Sannin.
Althugh not every opponent he faces will hand out bijuu levels of chakra to him. That means his power fluctuates depending on the opponent he is fighting.


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No.
> With Bijuu level chakra he is above them though.
> 
> Kisame is like Gai in that sense. Under certain circumstances, his power exceeds certain people who are normally above him.



with bijuu level chakra what can he do? water dome and daikodan right. more or less?

*orochimaru vs those jutsu* 

water dome: say hello manda. giant anaconda in water is more of a problem for kisame than a solution 
add myriad of snake techniques, all swimming to bite kisame. poison he cant regen from 

or he uses yamata, 1 bite and kisame dies. giant poison snake all the same but white snake poison. good luck swimming through all the heads without getting bit 

1000 sharks- sanju rashomon all the same

daikodan- sanjuu rashomon

samehada- senjutsu chakra

*jiriaya vs those jutsu*

water dome: toad gourd prison. nothing else to discuss really

daikodan- yes bunta can jump away from it. if gamaken could jump over a horde of juubi jins, which are boss sized to get to juubi. daikodan range is faar less than that 

1000 sharks. say hello goemon 

samehada- senjutsu chakra

*tsunade vs those jutsu*

samehada- katsuyu goo which prevented even shinju tree from absorbing chakra
water dome -katsuyu
daikodan- katsuyu
1000 sharks- katsuyu

yes said summon even ripped apart simply comes back together no issues at all 


now what kisame has no defence against. ET, senjutsu based techniques, katsuyu


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 27, 2015)

I thought yomi numa would trump the dome being a comparably sized doton.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> now what kisame has no defence against. ET, senjutsu based techniques, katsuyu



Other than regeneration, ninjutsu absorption, sensing, clones, vastly superior speed, and vastly superior long range firepower.

Say what you want about the Sannin potentially surviving Kisame's onslaught and escaping the dome, but then the new challenge becomes hurting Kisame when he's shielded by the dome.

Sage Jiraiya's lone option, assuming he makes it to Sage Mode, is sound genjutsu. Every other Sannin needs Kisame to come to them and get in close range, or else they're outmatched.

People are focused on an archaic part one statement. From a time before Gai lost to Deidara's clone, as opposed to manhandling Jubidara. In that same sense, Kisame outgrew original intent.

After all, none of the Sannin (barring God Tier Orochimaru) would be capable of capturing Killer Bee alive, or even beat him, let alone doing so and mentioning how disappointingly easy it was after.

When looking at Kisame's abilities objectively, there are many opponents he would perform better against than any Sannin. Bee is not the lone exception. Kisame is just, better.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 27, 2015)

Kisame absorbs Susano and speed blitzes Itachi inside the waterdome?


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## Rocky (Jul 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> After all, none of the Sannin (barring God Tier Orochimaru) would be capable of capturing Killer Bee alive, or even beat him, let alone doing so and mentioning how disappointingly easy it was after.​



That was a result of how powerful B was in the first place. 



Using feats from the Killer B fight is extremely dubious. The Sannin are direct opposites of B; very few of their attacks are chakra bombs or bijū-cloaked headbutts.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 27, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kisame absorbs Susano and speed blitzes Itachi inside the waterdome?



IMO Kisame is much more of a threat to Itachi than any Sannin.


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## Rocky (Jul 27, 2015)

What happened to the infamous genjutsu GG?


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## Matty (Jul 27, 2015)

Yea I can't see Kisame getting around Genjutsu. He isn't exactly the most genius fighter. I feel like Itachi counters him with a lot


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## Sadgoob (Jul 27, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What happened to the infamous genjutsu GG?



Kisame has knowledge, is a sensor, and has amazing long range capabilities.

So he's much better off than certain yellow-haired bitches IMO 

Especially when considering he's not retardedly arrogant like the Sannin.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 27, 2015)

Fused Kisame can fight with his eyes closed as a full sensor.


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

> Strategoob said:
> 
> 
> > Other than regeneration, ninjutsu absorption, sensing, clones, vastly superior speed, and vastly superior long range firepower.​
> ...


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 27, 2015)

I would say he's sannin level or maybe even higher, though it's not really a level as others have been quick to point out. The only thing that gives me apprehension is his part I statement, but tbh that was long ago and since then, featwise, he's more than improved. 

I'd say SM Jiraiya > Kisame > Tsunade >=Orochimaru excluding edo tensei. Do the differences between them constitute a whole level/tier? I personally don't believe so.  Kisame's about as strong as the akatsuki gets outside of the doujutsu trio though imo.

Kisame absorbs the vast majority of ninjutsu; virtually any katon, any suiton, any futon, any raiton that's a projectile, and grows stronger after absorbing them. I would argue the fact that the sannin use an assortment of non-elemental techniques, is the _exception_ rather than the norm. _More often than not_ in the narutoverse, he's going to be able to absorb his opponent's attacks. So if anything, Kisame growing stronger in a given battle is the more likely outcome than staying the same. 

I also count his ability to change the battlefield at will as an *immense* advantage bordering on the benefits normally conveyed to ninja whom can fly vs those whom are grounded.


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## Rocky (Jul 27, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> _More often than not_ in the narutoverse, he's going to be able to absorb his opponent's attacks. So if anything, Kisame growing stronger in a given battle is the more likely outcome than staying the same.



More often than not? I wouldn't say that. 

Samehada isn't very useful against Sasori's poison, Deidara's bombs, or Hidan's Ritual. It isn't useful against Gengetsu's mirages and steam, or Rasa's gold tidal waves. It isn't useful against Itachi's genjutsu or Nagato's Rinnegan.  The three Sannin have been discussed already, we've seen what happened with Gai, and there's also Tobirama, Minato, Kakashi, and Obito; all of them can circumvent ninjutsu absorption with their S/T jutsu.

That's _fifteen_ ninja off the top of my head that have _signature_ techniques that can get around ninjutsu absorption. That's not to say Samehada is useless, or that there aren't ninja that Kisame can completely shut down, but the Sannin definitely aren't some "exception" like you say.


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## Icegaze (Jul 27, 2015)

Following what rocky said I could easily come up with 10 more ninja that fight in such a way as to prevent any type of absorption from kisame


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## Sadgoob (Jul 27, 2015)

I don't see why people grant Orochimaru his prepped Edo Tensei or Tsunade her years-prepped Byakugo and yet act like Kisame having absorbed some extra chakra is some huge game-changer for him.

Same goes for Danzo having Izanagi, Sasori having his prepped puppets, Deidara having prepped bombs, Nagato not being a crippled bitch, etc. We judge ninja when they're at their peak.

And the fact is that Kisame at his peak is substantially above any of the base Sannin, one example being Jiraiya/Orochimaru getting their shit kicked in by KN4, yet Kisame casually capturing v2 Bee.

There are very few ninja I would expect base Jiraiya, Orochimaru, or Tsunade to perform better against than a serious Kisame, because Kisame is less arrogant, and his ninjutsu is better.​


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I don't see why people grant Orochimaru his prepped Edo Tensei or Tsunade her years-prepped Byakugo and yet act like Kisame having absorbed some extra chakra is some huge game-changer for him.
> 
> Same goes for Danzo having Izanagi, Sasori having his prepped puppets, Deidara having prepped bombs, Nagato not being a crippled bitch, etc. We judge ninja when they're at their peak.
> 
> ...



Tsunade w/her years prepped Byakugo isn't a game changer like Kisame is w/Samehada and bijuu chakra. The power jump that Kisame goes through is enormous when you compare that w/Tsunade. Tsunade doesn't get any buffs that would make her outclass her opponent. 

Kisame w/Bijuu Chakra + Samehada gives him more raw power, exceptionally high speeds/reaction time and turns him into a sensor. Base Kisame was getting outmaneuvered by Asuma but w/his fusion, he's able to outclass a V2 Jinchuriki w/ease.

I do agree with most people that his strength fluctuates given the opponent he is facing but there are several advantages he ascertains (e.g. sensing and speed) without the bijuu chakra. At this point, I don't think any of the base sannin would stand a chance against Kisamehada. 

SM Jiraiya would have a difficult time engaging him and his fight is 50/50, considering his Frog Song is the only way to stop him, he'd have to get Kisame out of the water in order to execute that, otherwise it wouldn't work. Tsunade loses either way while Orochimaru is the only that would win. Kisamehada is strong but not 4 dead Hokages worthy strong.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 27, 2015)

I don't think Kisame needs Hachibi chakra to fuse with Samehada or use any of the jutsu or abilities he used against Bee. 

If you recall, a 30% Kisame clone casually created an entire ocean in a desert, as an opening move, without the slightest sign of faitgue.​


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I don't see why people grant Orochimaru his prepped Edo Tensei or Tsunade her years-prepped Byakugo and yet act like Kisame having absorbed some extra chakra is some huge game-changer for him.
> 
> Same goes for Danzo having Izanagi, Sasori having his prepped puppets, Deidara having prepped bombs, Nagato not being a crippled bitch, etc. We judge ninja when they're at their peak.
> 
> ...



Yes Kisame is above any base Sannin 
However is boost comes from stealing another bijuu power so in a way it's similar to orocjimaru having ET 

However ET>>>>> anytbing Kisame has 

Tsunade and jiriaya aren't in the same boat as their boost is solely based on them and they don't need to steal other abilities and use as theirs


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> More often than not? I wouldn't say that.
> 
> Samehada isn't very useful against Sasori's poison, Deidara's bombs, or Hidan's Ritual. It isn't useful against Gengetsu's mirages and steam, or Rasa's gold tidal waves. It isn't useful against Itachi's genjutsu or Nagato's Rinnegan.  The three Sannin have been discussed already, we've seen what happened with Gai, and there's also Tobirama, Minato, Kakashi, and Obito; all of them can circumvent ninjutsu absorption with their S/T jutsu.
> 
> That's _fifteen_ ninja off the top of my head that have _signature_ techniques that can get around ninjutsu absorption. That's not to say Samehada is useless, or that there aren't ninja that Kisame can completely shut down, but the Sannin definitely aren't some "exception" like you say.


That's part of my point though Rocky, things like space-time ninjutsu and advanced doujutsu kekkai genkai are the exception. Genjutsu is also rare. Guy is a complete abnormality. All the people that use those things are for the most part viewed to be above what constitutes the ordinary kage/akatsuki level anyway.

In his own weight class though? Mind you, Samehada is Kisame's base-level absorption technique, not his only one. I think your analysis is perhaps disproportionately focused on just samehada. It wouldn't be fair to compare it to the best techniques of the kage like Joki Boy and gold wave or Deidara's higher end ordinanceC2-C3. 

Daikodan, which is basically the pinnacle of Kisame's absorption abilities and his strongest technique, should be just fine gobbling up there strongest techniques in turn though. So if both parties escalate, Daikodan by it's nature is still going to prevail. 

For the other two, Sasori is near-useless with just samehada(his puppets fall out of the sky) and daikodan would oneshot him altogether by disconnecting him from any puppet but his own body.  Hidan can circumvent absorption yeah, but he's Hidan so who cares  . 

Counting both daikodan and samehada together Kisame can absorb most(>50%) ninjutsu from the bolded following imo:
Gokage
*Ei*
_Tsunade_(Are punches absorb-able?)
*Gaara*
*Mei*
Onoki

Past Kage
Mu
*Second Mizukage*
*Ei's Papa*
*Gaara's Papa*

Sannin
Orochimaru
*Jiraiya*
_Tsunade_

midAkatsuki
*Deid*ara(He _can_ absorb it, but Deidara can pre-detonate it so it's a pretty hardcounter)
*Sasori*
*Kakuzu*
Konan
Hidan


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## LostSelf (Jul 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I don't think Kisame needs Hachibi chakra to fuse with Samehada or use any of the jutsu or abilities he used against Bee.
> 
> If you recall, a 30% Kisame clone casually created an entire ocean in a desert, as an opening move, without the slightest sign of faitgue.​



And could divide his chakra with clones without any sight of fatigue.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 28, 2015)

Kisame is a low Mid Kage. The Sannin are high Mid Kage or low High Kage. The only thing he can threaten them with is water dome, and they all have the means to counter it.​​


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

with water clones. which are weaker than kage bunshin 

i dont see how that suggests that at 100 % he can not only spit out a much larger lake but sustain it 

not the same thing at all


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 28, 2015)

How can kisame chakra reserves be in question when something like nagato said he had more chakra than anyone in akatsuki(including himself) and he wasn't jacked off chakra at the time?


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 28, 2015)

You maybe interested in something I posted earlier concerning the matter of scale as it pertains to Kisame Icegaze:


> Looking back at the Shoten Kisame vs Team Guy battle, it started out like this(notice the battlefield, it's very flat in nature: [1]
> 
> then became this:[2] and this was it's depth[3][4]
> 
> So even with the scale of what he can do in shoten, he'll be able to create respectably large Daikodans and Waterdomes. Not to Hachibi-fight scale(although I believe he always had that much chakra, but wrong topic for it), but still even those jutsu scaled down to shoten arc would be precarious.


That thread doesn't directly apply here though, because he was restricted to shoten arc in that specific thread.

So the depth and size of that ocean he created linked above (pre-hachibi fight), is only a measurement of what he can do with 30% of his power. With 100% of his power, that already massive ocean linked above would of course be proportionately 2-3 times deeper and expansive.


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> You maybe interested in something I posted earlier concerning the matter of scale as it pertains to Kisame Icegaze:
> 
> That thread doesn't directly apply here though, because he was restricted to shoten arc in that specific thread.
> 
> So the depth and size of that ocean he created linked above (pre-hachibi fight), is only a measurement of what he can do with 30% of his power. With 100% of his power, that already massive ocean linked above would of course be proportionately 2-3 times deeper and expansive.



its not doubting his ability to use it. however sustain it which if you dont know would still require chakra 

unless u think once he barfs out the bubble it no longer requires chakra to keep its shape. 

kisame can certainly do what he did against hachibi but less effectively since unlike in the fight with killer bee, with no chakra to steal he will simply exhaust himself. which is why he most likely wouldnt even attempt such 

what chakra would he be absorbing from these guys, none of them fight in such a way as to allow him to absorb chakra sufficient to sustain his large scale jutsu 

2 of them, could simply turn samehada to stone if he absorbs their chakra via samehada


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## Sadgoob (Jul 28, 2015)

The ocean was also substantially less than 30% too.

His clone wasn't tired. So at most, let's say it took 10%.

Mizubunshin have a 10% split, not even splits.

So 2% clones overpowered Neji, Lee, and Tenten.

That's pretty crazy.


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

hardly crazy neji+base lee+1010

would be destroyed by any sannin with less than fractions of their power

oro may not even need to fight them, his bloodlust woudl kill them. unless u think they are all above part 1 kakashi, who shat himself at the idea of fighting orochimaru


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## jasont47 (Jul 28, 2015)

no way bro, he would get killed


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## Sadgoob (Jul 28, 2015)

Perspective here:

2% Kisame > p2 Lee, p2 Neji

10% Zabuza < Wave Sasuke


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## Bonly (Jul 28, 2015)

Didn't the clones get beat by Neji something like that


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## Sadgoob (Jul 28, 2015)

Eh, they incapacitated him for awhile and didn't make moves after that, because Kisame just wanted to fight with Gai. IIRC, Neji eventually escaped, but I'm not sure if he took them all out after.

Regardless, the fact that Wave Sauske blitzed ten 10% Zabuza clones and a few 2% Kisame clones effectively incapacitated Team Gai is impressive.​


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi/AL were set up as the main villains IMO.
> 
> For Sasuke/Naruto respectively.
> 
> ...


After the Chunin Exams. But during the Chunin Exams only a Sannin could beat a Sannin. And even Hiruzen the strongest of the Gokage, capable of defeating both Nindaime and Shodai Hokage at the same time, could at best weaken Orochimaru, and if he had been 10 years younger perhaps draw with him, while one of Orochi's Tensei's unluckily failed.



Rocky said:


> When people claim them to be equal, they're claiming that they are as such when _not_ handicapped.


So their talking about a fanfiction version that never existed?



> Jiraiya probably had Sage Mode in Part I. Like, "Toad Sage."


I absolutely do not believe Kishimoto had SM planned. In-Part I the Sannin's greatest power were their Boss Summons and their teamwork with them. You have to remember that in P1 the  jutsu that Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Hashirama were throwing around in the Hiruzen vs Orochimaru fight were considered "Hokage level" and impressed the shit out of even elite Anbu. When you compare the level of those techniques to what the scale the Sannin were capable off with their boss summons, it's obvious why the Sannin were originally suppose to be unbeatable. Compare Bunta's Water Gun Shot that's matching a Bijuu's attack, to Tobirama's pathetic Suijinheki. Compare Gama Yu Endan to Hiruzen's Fire blast that was blocked by said Suijinheki. Think about what Katsuya's acid would do to Hiruzen's relatively tiny Earth-Wall Doton. Compare Hashirama's Mokuton that was countered by Enma who was hyped as one of the strongest summons back then, to Bunta, Manda, and Katsuya, and what they would do to that very same Mokuton.

I don't think people realize just how powerful the Sannin were on the powerscale presented to us in the Chunin Exams. The Sannin were to the Chunin Exams Power-Scale, what Juubi Jins are to the current power-scale.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I don't think Kisame needs Hachibi chakra to fuse with Samehada or use any of the jutsu or abilities he used against Bee.
> 
> If you recall, a 30% Kisame clone casually created an entire ocean in a desert, as an opening move, without the slightest sign of faitgue.​


Correct me if I am wrong, but as I remember it, the bijuu chakra ended up increasing the efficacy and strength of the users attack. I believe that's why Kurama/Naruto shared their chakra with everyone, it essentially elevated their techniques greatly.

I don't know if Kisame's shark-based ninjutsu would be as effective on his chakra alone. I don't meant to take anything away from, it'd still be a hassle to deal with him.


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## Bonly (Jul 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Eh, they incapacitated him for awhile and didn't make moves after that, because Kisame just wanted to fight with Gai. IIRC, Neji eventually escaped, but I'm not sure if he took them all out after.​




Well Rocklee said that Neji saved them and there was no clones around afterwords so I think Neji prolly took them out



> Regardless, the fact that Wave Sauske blitzed ten 10% Zabuza clones and a few 2% Kisame clones effectively incapacitated Team Gai is impressive.



I don't think it was to impressive. Kisame used the water clones body to use water prison to catch those three while they was attacking from above and as we always see water prison is a pain for people. Now if the clones actually used some skill then I'd agree with you


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Perspective here:
> 
> 2% Kisame > p2 Lee, p2 Neji
> 
> 10% Zabuza < Wave Sasuke



it could be 1% or even less if needed

0.5% of jiriaya >P2 base lee and P2 neji

the tiny bit of chakra needed for him to use FCD would be more than enough to kill both 

I get what u trying to illustrate however Its fairly pointless..anyone here can neg diff team gai if lee don't go gates

oro at 0% kills them. just his bloodlust and they would shiver


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 28, 2015)

> ...killer bee never tried to. the second his enka master told him to. kisame heard that and fused with the sword.


No, instead he tried to kill Kisame multiple times 



> base gai took it from kisame..odd how u forgot that


You mean he took it from 30% Kisame, with the aid of two other taijutsu masters and a ranged weapon user. 



> lol gai could hold it. he let go of it because he doesnt have a heal factor nor tsunade ability to endure damage


Yeah, the moment he attempted slashing Kisame the spikes got his hand- but that's irrelevant considering Samehada itself can attack [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]

If it doesn't want you to use it- you can't use it. It'll bend and bite your fucking head off or exude massive spikes and absorb your chakra dry the moment you touch it. 



> the man fights differently from tsunade.


You mean he fights better than Tsunade.



> when asuma wasnt sent a considerable distance.


He wasn't slashed, if he were- he would've been killed. 

This is the power behind his 30% clone's slash. Tsunade is definitely sent flying if she's hit with that, considering his simple down-arm drop (which isn't even a real punch) sent Gai torpedoing to the bottom [2].



> see above
> tsunade is also much much stronger than kisame physically


No she's not, they're both super strong. The moment the chakra in her strikes get absorbed [1], they're pretty much equal on the strength front in my opinion- and it doesn't wound Kisame [2]. 



> also the only kage to have suffered by far the most damage yet was the only conscious. but yh forget all about that


Considering that happened off panel, you have no argument.

(Discounting Meteor) Gaara, Mei, Onoki & Ei were severely wounded once (PS), Tsunade was severely wounded 5 times in that battle (4 Pre-PS, 1 PS), and she was saved by Dan from being killed outright (Byakgou deactivated, she was in free fall, Madara's V3 Blade was right beneath her), and they were all saved by Orochimaru. 



> no not argunig that. your logic is weak. am saying tsunade doesnt need to be as fast as bee since tsunade wont even try to dodge at all. she will get hit and counter. sadly her counter kills kisame


She won't counter, the slash will fuck her up and send her flying, taking a massive amount of her chakra in the process.

Her "counter" won't do shit, the chakra explosion is absorbed with Samehada, not to suggest she'd ever hit him regardless of surviving his attack, Kisame tanks her base strength and slashes the fuck out of her again. 



> dancing in what? ...


Avoiding her taijutsu?



> so your saying a slash to the gut woudl rob her of chakra in her fists? oh really....


Who said she'd be slashed in the gut? Her head can be taken off just as easily. 

The slash isn't what prevents the chakra explosion in her strikes- Samehada being in the general vicinity of her body is what prevents it. 



> lol i thought you said gai held back hirudora....also  he survived larait thanks to stolen chakra.


His body physically survived the V2 Lariat while Samehada wasn't touching him, only after the damage was dealt did Samehada return to heal him.  



> what does that have to do with a 100m toad summon dropping on him?


He'll survive it? 



> kisame also never used on panel water dome on a single person ..guess he cant use it here


He used it on Killer Bee, the panda & lumberjack weren't even remotely a challenge to him. 



> DB statements suggesting its guided. ill wait


It's a water shark technique, larger than the smaller versions that he was shown guiding [1] [2]

Considering Gated Gai used Afternoon Tiger to counter it, Gamabunta isn't avoiding it. 



> he can use doton you know that right.


Yes, but he does not have a doton wall. 



> odd u the guy suggesting kisame uses multi mizu bunshin without ever showign more than 3 but somehow jiriaya cant use a basic doton wall...ah the bias is real


Considering you've suggested Orochimaru (if not most kage levels) can use more than one Kage Bunshin in a previous thread, having only shown the ability to use one, I also find your statement interesting. 

It's suggested in the manga that Kisame has bijuu level chakra (like Pre-war arc Base Naruto) who used Multi Shadow Clone Ninjutsu in PT.1. Kisame has shown the ability to use 3 at once (with only 30% chakra) because it suited him to only use three (capture Gai's 3 subordinates in water prison), for a ninja who has bijuu-level reserves it shouldn't be a challenge to summon a dozen mizu bunshin, though they're not needed considering he can simply utilize 1,000 shark jutsu in the dome.


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

> DaVizWiz said:
> 
> 
> > No, instead he tried to kill Kisame multiple times
> ...


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## Icegaze (Jul 28, 2015)

Asuma wasn't slashed  

some people and their BS. here is a scan clear as day. he gets slashed, he is still standing

now feel free to show where kisame says since part 2 he has improved. the only improvement he mentions is when he absorbs more chakra he gets stronger

choujiro even mentions it

1) [1]



2)  [1]




btw notice chakra next to kisame but too far from samehada for it to absorb 

[1]

Kisame at the start of his battle against bee wasn't nearly as strong as towards the middle after absorbing V1 cloak twice and then a V2 cloak 

here samehada would never grow large enough to steal that level of chakra. so kisame fighting these guys would be ultimately weaker

also note against V1 bee, it is samehada moving that helped kisame avoid bee from punching a hole in his chest. At default level, here kisame really doesn't have much going for him if he engages tsunade in cqc

however I think he will never attempt such

does anyone have samehada Db entry?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 28, 2015)

Kisame's actually pretty smart and cunning, an example being how he outsmarted Bee and A to infiltrate the village, and would have succeeded if not for Naruto in Jesus Mode sensing him.

I would not count on Kisame opting for CQC against Tsunade, especially considering we know how much he respects the Sannin title. You can expect him to pull out the big guns immediately.

But most people seem to agree that Kisame with Hachibi chakra is at or above the Sannin baseline level, and the disagreement is whether Kisame without the Hachibi chakra can do what he did with it.

IMO he can based on him being stated to have more chakra than Nagato, a 30% clone casually making an ocean in the desert, and him not inventing those jutsu on the spot.​


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## Icegaze (Jul 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Kisame's actually pretty smart and cunning, an example being how he outsmarted Bee and A to infiltrate the village, and would have succeeded if not for Naruto in Jesus Mode sensing him.
> 
> I would not count on Kisame opting for CQC against Tsunade, especially considering we know how much he respects the Sannin title. You can expect him to pull out the big guns immediately.
> 
> ...



thank you for your intelligent post. yes i really think he wont be foolish enough to engage tsunade in cqc 

he will pull out his big guns immediately. to which tsunade responds with katsuyu, now considering kisame cant really do anything to harm it. 

the summon gives tsunade the opportunity to engage in cqc which she will prevail in 

yes with hachibi chakra he is above sannin baseline level 

again, no proof of that. all the Db says is he has chakra equal on par with naruto. this is naruto before KCM or BM btw

now we know all bijuu have massive chakra reserves, woudl u say hachibi can use 9 BD back to back because kyuubi used it? no

hachibi chakra boosted his chakra levels, having bijuu chakra doesnt suddenly mean u can use water dome like that, with no consequence, he will get tired. using his reserves for such, however against hachibi he didnt break a sweat because he used stolen chakra


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 31, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Kisame's actually pretty smart and cunning, an example being how he outsmarted Bee and A to infiltrate the village, and would have succeeded if not for Naruto in Jesus Mode sensing him.
> 
> I would not count on Kisame opting for CQC against Tsunade, especially considering we know how much he respects the Sannin title. You can expect him to pull out the big guns immediately.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I agree with this too to the point where I believe Kisame would be able to replicate anything he did against Gai w/the Hachibi chakra. The only catch being that the jutsu would be on a smaller scale and perhaps not as effective as it was while using Hachibi's chakra.

The only difference that the chakra makes (at least from view point) is the potency of the jutsu is upscaled in the same manner as how a regular rasengan with just regular chakra vs. a rasengan being used via sm or kyuubi mode.


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## Duhul10 (Jul 31, 2015)

The sannin do not have a level of their own. Their power fluctuate.  HE could be in their category with hachibi chakra and if he has samehada too, yet i do not see how he can defeat SM Jiraiya or zetsu cells Oro.
Oro simply smashes him with ET. And Jiraiya overpowers him with senjutsu  and avoids everything he can throw at him. Daikodan is easily avoided by gamabunta, or maybe even gamaken can tank it with his shield ( possibility not probability ). the water dome it is tricky, but  Jiraiya has the trap in which he can escape , or he blitzes him with senpou chou oodama rasengan before he can even do anything.
Tsunade is tricky for him too. With katsuyu  she can surely defeat him, without katsuyu he still needs full knowledge to not atempt cqc.


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## LostSelf (Jul 31, 2015)

Jiraiya is not blitzing Kisamehada in waterdome. Not even knowing Tsunade will pole-dance to him if he manages that.


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## ~M~ (Jul 31, 2015)

It's a good point that the power of the Sanin also fluctuate and the power level of Kisame I think it's reasonable to gauge probably fluctuates within their average.


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## LostSelf (Jul 31, 2015)

I might've exaggerated far too much.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 31, 2015)

I also think Kisame is capable of what he did in the fight with Bee without Bee's Chakra, but...

CQC is one of Kisame's strong points anyway, and if he uses the water dome he'll still be going into close-quarters. That's pretty much all he can do because during Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu _he has webbed fingers_ (i.e.- no handseals for Daikōdan, etc).

Katsuyu clones floating around in the area could take away his wiggle room to simply try circling around Tsunade and slowly sapping her Chakra like he did Bee, and she can just hit him if he stays close so as to not run into any acid globules nearby (if he stays away then one could get out and reverse summon the other to the outside).

Hari Jizō/Ranjishigami would still make approaching Jiraiya dangerous for Kisame in the water dome (if he happened to be in Sage Mode Fukasaku and Shima's fighting tongue techniques would be as well) while Gamabunta, Ken, or Hiro, being toads roughly the size of a Tailed Beast, should be able to escape the dome with him rather quickly. 

Orochimaru's body stretching and/or replacements with either his normal or white snake forms should let him escape the dome in the event that he can't find the opportunity to grab Kisame with his Sen'ei Tajashu or Jagei Jubaku snakes in a way not too dissimilar to the how Bee did (and then poison Kisame). Manda should also be able to get him out of the dome, though he might be ticked off at being summoned inside of it. Oh well.

They definitely have ways to deal with Kisame's water dome tactic if it comes into play.


Against the shark tidal wave Jiraiya could at least cancel it out with Gamayu Endan or just have the toad jump over it, Tsunade could probably clear a space in it by striking the field with her herculean strength then continue past it toward Kisame, and Orochimaru could either slide underground or slither up a Rashōmon gate.

So that can be handled, too.


We didn't see how much force the giant water shark bomb actually carries, but given Gamabunta surviving Shukaku's giant air bullets, Manda's shed skin alone largely retaining its form after Gamayu Endan, and Katsuyu withstanding Pain's amplified Shinra Tensei I'd assume Daikōdan's impact could probably just be tanked if it couldn't be evaded.


More good opportunities will present themselves for Kisame to get killed than any of the Sannin whether he can do what he did with Bee's Chakra without it or not.


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## LostSelf (Jul 31, 2015)

I think the problem one would face against Kisamehada, is that the waterdome steals chakra. Maybe those globs of acid would disappear (or K-clones). But that's not all. He was too fast for an aquatic creature like Hachibi. Too fast to even hit him like gated Lee was kicking Gaara's ass. And in the water, punching would make it still slower, at least, for Tsunade.

But yeah, Kisamehada might not be able to summon sharks in this mode. But he can summon the huge barrage of sharks and them fuse .

I think the others are well suited to fight him. However, i never know how to argue for Orochimaru in almost any thread. I don't know why.


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## Mercurial (Jul 31, 2015)

Sannin level doesn't even exist in first place, like Akatsuki level or Hokage level or kage level, since you have Akatsuki like Obito, Nagato and Itachi and like Hidan and Konan, Hokage like Hashirama and like old Hiruzen, kage like the 3rd Raikage and Kurotsuchi and what not. The Sannin are three ninja who gained a personal and group reputation, that doesn't mean they are equally strong, especially when two of them are more combat oriented (with great differences in style among these two) and one is more support oriented. Orochimaru >= Jiraiya >> Tsunade.

Kisame can defeat Tsunade with ease (he can weaken her chakra enhanced hits with Samehada and then use his strength and durability to hold his own, not to mention that he is faster and with far better reactions than Tsunade; Tsunade has nothing against Daikodan no jutsu, Daibakusoi Shoha + Suiro Sameodori + Samehada fusion, Senshokuko and so on, summoning Katsuyu won't help at all since Kisame will just drain the slug from her chakra). Agaist Jiraiya it's 50/50 and against Orochimaru it's the same, it could go either way.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 31, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I think the problem one would face against Kisamehada, is that the waterdome steals chakra.



_Kisamehada_ steals Chakra_ while in the water dome_; the dome itself does not do anything besides give Kisame a moving field advantage.



> But that's not all. He was too fast for an aquatic creature like Hachibi. Too fast to even hit him like gated Lee was kicking Gaara's ass. And in the water, punching would make it still slower, at least, for Tsunade.



Bee never transformed into Gyūki, though. The V1/V2 shrouds lack any of Gyūki's aquatic characteristics as far as I can tell.

The option I brought up has to do with taking up space instead of speed anyway.

It doesn't matter how fast Kisame is if he stays within reach.



> But yeah, Kisamehada might not be able to summon sharks in this mode. But he can summon the huge barrage of sharks and them fuse .



And the person in the dome could just be getting out while he's doing that.


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## Arles Celes (Jul 31, 2015)

He stated that Jiraiya is a whole different level than him.

He lacks nukes to put Oro down.

Tsunade with her regeneration and crazy speed would also be a pain to deal for him.

Kisame is at his best when dealing with pure ninjutsu spammers whose chakra he can absorb to power himself. Also against those that rely on powering themselves with chakra like Jins do which is why he was so hard for Bee to handle.

He is strong enough to put up a fight against Oro, Tsunade or Base Jiraiya but as long as ET/Yamata no Jutsu, SM or Byakugou come into play he won't last long...


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## LostSelf (Jul 31, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> _Kisamehada_ steals Chakra_ while in the water dome_; the dome itself does not do anything besides give Kisame a moving field advantage.



Yeah, i agree. I meant with Kisame inside.



> Bee never transformed into Gyūki, though. The V1/V2 shrouds lack any of Gyūki's aquatic characteristics as far as I can tell.



Well, considering it's a state of an octopus, i assumed it. But aside from J-man and Oro, who knows if Tsunade's a natural swimmer to do what Bee couldn't.


> The option I brought up has to do with taking up space instead of speed anyway.
> 
> It doesn't matter how fast Kisame is if he stays within reach.



I agree too, however, the comparison is the same. Lee was withing reach of Gaara. Yet, the genin could no nothing to prevent being hit. (I talk about only Tsunade because i already agreed Jiraiya beats him and Oro is unknown for me). Tsunade might not be able to do the same. However, hit and run tactics could go well considering he will be on the winning side in a battle of attrition.

But yeah, Katsuyu should make it more difficult (Not divided, for size purposes). I just don't see mini-clones lasting long, as Kisame could do to them what the god tree did.



> And the person in the dome could just be getting out while he's doing that.



That's circunstancial.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 31, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Yeah, i agree. I meant with Kisame inside.



Meaning the acid and slugs would still be hazardous for Kisame to swim through, because he'd have to come into contact with them to do anything.



> Well, considering it's a state of an octopus, i assumed it. But aside from J-man and Oro, who knows if Tsunade's a natural swimmer to do what Bee couldn't.



Bee had the chance to hit Kisame when he tried hugging him to death (when I'm saying Tsunade would hit him), just like he bound him with the tentacles, but he used it to get Ponta and Sabu out of the water instead.



> I agree too, however, the comparison is the same. Lee was withing reach of Gaara.
> 
> But yeah, Katsuyu should make it more difficult (Not divided, for size purposes). I just don't see mini-clones lasting long, as Kisame could do to them what the god tree did.



Gaara's sand trying to catch back up to Lee and his position isn't comparable to Tsunade simply throwing a punch or kick at the person right next to her or grabbing her.

A hit and run tactic is exactly what the Katsuyu clones would deter.

It isn't like Kisame could kill the clones by just barely brushing past them while circling Tsunade. He'd have to grab one and drain it of its Chakra (even the tree had to actually latch on to everyone it sucked Chakra from), which is just unfeasible when there are so many of them in the dome.



> That's circunstancial.



Before fusing the water released by Dai Bakusui Shōha is the same as Shōten Kisame's Bakusui Shōha, _just taller_ but not as tall as when it's in a _dome_ _formation_.

Compare that to when boss summons are depicted _next_ _to_ _trees_.

I mean it's still higher, but if anybody with a boss summon calls it out they've already cleared most of the way to the top. They'd be out before they were actually being threatened by the wave of sharks.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 31, 2015)

> scans of bee trying to take kisame sword. ill wait


Scans of Tsunade disarming anyone in the manga? 



> feel free to prove more chakra improves kisame cqc ability ill wait. at 100% asuma had no issues avoiding him and actually damaging him


Part 1 encounter? Are you serious?

PT. 1 Asuma is now = KN1 Killer Bee?



> yes so ur saying a bloody sword kisame could kick away when it annoyed him has sufficient defence to prevent tsunade from kicking it miles away?


You can't be serious. Kisame kicking the blade is your evidence that Tsunade would be fine wielding it if it didn't want to be wielded?

Extended spikes destroy her hand, the sword takes a massive amount of her chakra as soon as she moves close to it, and it bends and bites her fucking head off is she attempts to use it against Kisame. 



> she doesn't need to use it. she will kick it away and it would not come back in its life time


She's not touching it, Kisame will move the blade under her kick and take her fucking leg off. 



> gai who is physically weaker than tsunde blocked that slash. tsunade catches it and murks kisame


With nunchucks, then he got punched dozens of meters under the water. Attempting to "catch" a spiked blade with her bare arm that is swung at the force Kisame can is literally hilarious, her entire limb is taken off. 

Now you do realize that was 30% Kisame?



> . yes in ur opinion. according to the author pretty clear tsunade strength>>>> kisame


Not really, that 30% sword slash shock wave, blocking Gai's kick with one arm and no backlash, shattering the Mokuton pillar constraint while severely weakened and mind raped is a clear indication Kisame is one of the strongest ninja in the verse and can compete with Tsunade's base strength. 



> yes tsunade was also the only kage conscious at the end of it all. despite suffering far more damage than them in the end


Indeed, yet she was mortally wounded 5+ more times compared to every other kage, and she was saved two times by other ninja (Mei, Dan). Her surviving or remaining conscious is irrelevant, her skills in close quarters weren't great enough to avoid being wounded 5+ times. 

She was clearly the least capable of guarding herself in close quarters against the Susano. 



> scans of kisame slash sending anyone flying. it didn't send asuma flying


Scans proving Tsunade won't be sent flying by Part 2 Kisame's slash?

I can do it too.

The shock wave proves she'll be sent flying, it bent the water down, exploded it hundreds of meters into the air and put Gai flat against the waterbed. 



> oh so kisame can avoid but tsunade cant...sure


Kisame is faster than Tsunade, are you incapable of reading the manga?

PLEASE go read Killer Bee vs. Kisame.
Avoids blindside Raiton Projectile
[1]
Blocks Sabu's attack, Reacts+Blocks Base Killer Bee's attack directly afterwards
[1] [2]
Reacts & Absorbs Chakra from KN1 Headbutt from 1m, does 0 damage
[1] [2]
Reacts to V1 Killer Bee's linear blitz from less than 10m, sword dodges, Kisame side-steps and rips part of the cloak off
[1] [2] [3]
Reacts & Blocks Gai's Kick without even being moved
[1] [2]

Tsunade is not disarming him. Tsunade is not avoiding/stopping his slash. Tsunade is not hitting him before or after she gets slashed. 

I'm done here, you're denying Kisame's feats because you either dislike the character, or like the Sannin way too much.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 31, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I think the problem one would face against Kisamehada, is that the waterdome steals chakra. Maybe those globs of acid would disappear (or K-clones). But that's not all. He was too fast for an aquatic creature like Hachibi. Too fast to even hit him like gated Lee was kicking Gaara's ass. And in the water, punching would make it still slower, at least, for Tsunade.




 Indeed, but it's not just that. It's also the fact that the user will eventually suffocate which even rendered V1 Bee's physical strength useless which is a considerable feat when we take into account Base Bee having superior physical strength over V2 Ei. Had Kisame wanted to, he could have simply summoned dozens of Sharks which would easily pressure his opponent long enough to get within their range and sap their chakra.


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## Matty (Jul 31, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Sannin level doesn't even exist in first place, like Akatsuki level or Hokage level or kage level, since you have Akatsuki like Obito, Nagato and Itachi and like Hidan and Konan, Hokage like Hashirama and like old Hiruzen, kage like the 3rd Raikage and Kurotsuchi and what not. The Sannin are three ninja who gained a personal and group reputation, that doesn't mean they are equally strong, especially when two of them are more combat oriented (with great differences in style among these two) and one is more support oriented. Orochimaru >= Jiraiya >> Tsunade.
> 
> Kisame can defeat Tsunade with ease (he can weaken her chakra enhanced hits with Samehada and then use his strength and durability to hold his own, not to mention that he is faster and with far better reactions than Tsunade; Tsunade has nothing against Daikodan no jutsu, Daibakusoi Shoha + Suiro Sameodori + Samehada fusion, Senshokuko and so on, summoning Katsuyu won't help at all since Kisame will just drain the slug from her chakra). Agaist Jiraiya it's 50/50 and against Orochimaru it's the same, it could go either way.



I think it's just basically getting to the level. You are Sannin level if you can be on the level of the waekest member, since they are sannin, right? Same with Akatsuki, if you can beat Hidan more times than not you are essentially Akatsuki, level same with Hokage and etc. Now it doesn't mean you are the strongest of the Akatsuki because you can beat Hidan, it just means you are in the same ballpark as the overall group even though it holds no merit whether you can take on Itachi/Nagato/Obito.

So to me Kisame would be on the Sannin level because I can see him taking Tsunade. He is far superior to her without Katusuyu.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 1, 2015)

Kisame comfortably beats Tsunade and Orochimaru. He is definetely on the Sannin level. An idea of Tsunade beating Kisame is hilarious as hell.


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## chainsofdeath (Aug 1, 2015)

Defidently did you see his 1000 feeding sharks jutsu anyone other than killer bee would have been a body the only reason he survived that was because of the octopus. If anything id say hes stronger than sanin although he dosent seem to be so great without his sword.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 1, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Scans of Tsunade disarming anyone in the manga?



_She took Naruto's Kunai_.

_Does this Susano'o thing count_? I mean it was after it stabbed her but she broke it off and used it.


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## Mercurial (Aug 1, 2015)

So Tsunade disarmed part 1 (not Kyuubified) Naruto. Really great. I mean, she is definitely not a smashy smashy fighter that attacks her opponent with a linear jump and a punch/kick, or that tries to tank the opponent's attack to then hit him close, like the manga showed everytime she was in a fight... no, now with this great feat I can easily see she effortlessy disarming Kisame from Samehada. Definitely.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 1, 2015)

Some of you people I swear post just because you guys like to make yourselves look stupid.

Icegaze asked for scans of Killer Bee trying to disarm Kisame.

DaVizWiz asked for scans of Tsunade disarming anyone.

There they are.

Who it was doesn't matter. It wasn't a necessity, so if Tsunade was some crazy woman with a .1 in Taijutsu that only knows how to clumsily sling her weight around and be this huge hypocrite that never dodges anything despite emphasizing the importance of evasion like you and way too many others seem to be under the impression that she is, she would have just blitzed Naruto and clocked him on the head.

But that's not what happened.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 1, 2015)

You could also say that Hiashi can't disarm people because there are no scans of him doing it, but only if your intention is to be obnoxious.

Tsunade is a kage who specializes in CQC, and she's shown she knows the techniques to disarm people.  Obviously she practiced those techniques on people above genin class, and can apply those techniques in battle conditions against skilled opponents, or she never would have bothered learning or using them.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 1, 2015)

Oi.  You're making me look redundant.

EDIT:

And I can't even rep you for it.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 1, 2015)

I just noticed we posted within seconds of each other.


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## Mercurial (Aug 1, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Some of you people I swear post just because you guys like to make yourselves look stupid.
> 
> Icegaze asked for scans of Killer Bee trying to disarm Kisame.
> 
> ...



Actually that's what Tsunade does mostly in the manga, Kishimoto showing her as skilled against an almost fodder character doesn't mean much when he shows her as totally smashy smashy against actually relevant characters. I won't call it clumsy but predictable, one dimensional and easy to counter, for high level characters, at least, but that's me.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You could also say that Hiashi can't disarm people because there are no scans of him doing it, but only if your intention is to be obnoxious.
> 
> Tsunade is a kage who specializes in CQC, and she's shown she knows the techniques to disarm people.  Obviously she practiced those techniques on people above genin class, and can apply those techniques in battle conditions against skilled opponents, or she never would have bothered learning or using them.



I won't, because Hiashi fights with CQC finesse while Tsunade fights with CQC raw physical strength.

Disarming an opponent far far far far far far far far far far behind Kisame in everything is irrelevant if we're talking about feats to disarm someone like Kisame or comparable. I can show you a boy stomping a kid with a single punch and then still being owned by a professional boxer in a millisecond.

Everytime she fought and I mean with not irrelevant opponents she just tried to smash people/things head on with her superhuman strength, or to tank attacks and then try a surprise attack to heal herself after.


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## Grimsley (Aug 1, 2015)

Kisame can't be any of them, he's strong but is not able to beat any of them


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 1, 2015)

> I can show you a boy stomping a kid with a single punch and then still being owned by a professional boxer in a millisecond.



What we got was a champion boxer beating a kid with a single finger, and you insisting he can't fight a pro-boxer.

What you're doing is taking a feat of finesse, and saying it doesn't count, then insisting the person has never shown finesse.  You could say that this scene [1] wasn't enough to establish that Kakashi was a very skilled ninja, or could do this to to anyone above genin class, because it's just Naruto, and any chunin could do that to him.  But you wouldn't and shouldn't do that, now should you?


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## FlamingRain (Aug 1, 2015)

What Pirate said.

But since I was in the middle of replying before finding out my dad had a flat tire I'm posting this anyway.



> Actually that's what Tsunade does mostly in the manga, Kishimoto showing her as skilled against an almost fodder character doesn't mean much when he shows her as totally smashy smashy against actually relevant characters. I won't call it clumsy but predictable, one dimensional and easy to counter, for high level characters, at least, but that's me.



There's no significant difference in the meaning behind those words. "Predictable, one dimensional and easy to counter for high level characters" means unskillful, or clumsy because Tsunade is a high level character herself.

One that is close-combat oriented, highlighted evasion as being a priority in battle, and was seen fit to be given a 5 out of 5 for the Taijutsu statistic which is separate from the strength statistic (only Gai, Hiruzen, Kimimaro, and Part 2 Lee also received that score iirc). 

In Part 1 she was extremely rusty _(1)_, and when Naruto challenged her also inebriated _(2)_. It matters because when you look at her you're supposed to go "if she can do such and such while in this rusty state, imagine if she was actually in good condition", kind of like Kabuto did _(3)_.

Jabbing a pressure point in somebody's wrist, confiscating his kunai and knocking off his headband with it, then flicking him into the spot his kunai is going to land directly in front of (and apparently snatching his wallet at some point in there) is indicative of a high level of skill _irregardless of the opponent's own skill in the art_.

You can still demonstrate a great amount of skill against somebody who isn't very skilled, and that's the entire point of the scene. Otherwise, like I said earlier she would have just blitzed Naruto and clocked him on the head, as that would have been more simple for both Kishimoto (to draw) and Tsunade (to do).


In Part 2 after she came into her own again she fought Madara's larger-than-human and extremely durable Susano'os, which Raikage bounced off of, and which repair themselves so long as the user continues supplying enough Chakra. Against those you shouldn't expect her to try anything _besides_ smashing it head on with her outrageous strength.

But you can tell she _isn't limited to fighting that way against anyone else she may face_ for the reasons mentioned above.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 1, 2015)

> he shows her as totally smashy smashy against actually relevant characters. I won't call it clumsy but predictable, one dimensional and easy to counter, for high level characters, at least, but that's me.



If her smashy smashy worked on relevant high level characters, like Madara and Orochimaru, how is it easily countered by high level characters?

Wouldn't Madara have side stepped it, and killed her, like he did to these chumps?

Wouldn't Oro have never gotten touched?

Wouldn't Kabuto have simply slashed her with scalpels back at the castle?

Frankly, Naruto's taijutsu never really impressed me, or stood out for most of part 2, but it seemed to be a thing he was pretty good at, it won him a lot of matches.  It even helped him against Neji, and it worked pretty well against Sasuke, who copied Lee's taijutsu, and was pretty suave on his hands.  Outside of kyuubi form, he was never very fast or strong either, but for the most part he seemed to compete fairly well with opponents that were canonically stronger than him with what is tantamount to a super punch.


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## Mercurial (Aug 1, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> What we got was a champion boxer beating a kid with a single finger, and you insisting he can't fight a pro-boxer.
> 
> What you're doing is taking a feat of finesse, and saying it doesn't count, then insisting the person has never shown finesse.  You could say that this scene [1] wasn't enough to establish that Kakashi was a very skilled ninja, or could do this to to anyone above genin class, because it's just Naruto, and any chunin could do that to him.  But you wouldn't and shouldn't do that, now should you?



If you want to show that Tsunade fights with finesse, you have to show feats that are relevant against characters with relevant strength. And you won't find these feats because in the manga there aren't. Tsunade's taijutsu was refined against non Kyuubi part 1 Naruto. But Tsunade's taijutsu was totally smashy-smashy and basically just throwing punches and kicks around (albeit really powerful) against Kabuto, Orochimaru, Madara. Other than the Ranshinsho on Kabuto, that would have never happened in first place if Kabuto didn't give her his back because he wasn't fighting seriously (for his own admission). Showing finesse against an opponent that is so many times weaker than you shows nothing. A boy who plays soccer can do everything with a ball to a boy that doesn't playing soccer, the boy that plays will appear, compared to the one that doesn't play, like a soccer god or something like that, he will show finesse, speed and tricks to make a joke of the other boy that doesn't play. But if you put the boy that plays soccer aganst a professional player, the boy won't even see the ball, all the finesse he previously showed will be like erased. Did he suddenly forget how to play soccer? No, it's just that his opponent now is really strong so he can't do the same things he was doing before against a weaker opponent. 

I think you get it now. Tsunade's finesse in taijutsu exist, but it's not her forte, not even close to be, so she can be refined only against characters that are really weak. You took Kakashi as example; yes that shows Kakashi showing his finesse against beginning of part 1 Naruto. But if Kakashi didn't show great finesse in taijutsu against much, much, much stronger opponents (1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7)(8)(9)(10)(11)(12)(13)(14)(15)(16), it would have been the same thing that is with Tsunade, so having a certain level of finesse but not so high that one can rely on it in serious battles; the fact is that Kakashi showed while Tsunade didn't, not at all, hence while Tsunade can't rely on finesse in taijutsu against strong opponents (and actually she doesn't in the manga) Kakashi, and other strong characters, can rely on finesse in taijutsu against strong opponents (and actually he, and other characters, do that in the manga).


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 1, 2015)

> If you want to show that Tsunade fights with finesse, you have to show feats that are relevant against characters with relevant strength. And you won't find these feats because in the manga there aren't.



Okay, show me scans of Hiashi using _finesse_ against high level opponents in the manga.  All I ever saw him do was spam big rotations and air palms, but I'm certain he did some sweet moves when I wasn't looking.  

Otherwise I'll be forced to conclude that since that's all he did when he showed up, that that's all he can do.



> But if Kakashi didn't show great finesse in taijutsu against much, much, much stronger opponents, it would have been the same thing that is with Tsunade



Seriously?  I'd never have said Kakashi wasn't awesome, even if I never saw him fight again.  He was a jounin, an elite ninja, and he pulled of a sick move.  I'd sooner assume that anyone who'd give him trouble was just _that good_, rather than he sucked against anyone not a genin.

Elite Jounin generally perform their actions at elite jounin level.  Kage generally perform their actions at kage level.  Sannin generally do things at Sannin level.  Kakashi performs at Kakashi level.  When Kabuto says holy crap, this is the power of a Sannin, I sort of take that to mean the move was on a really high level, rather than sucky and impossible.  Obviously Tsunade has finesse, and she used it where it was needed, and when it was needed, in the way it was needed.  

I wouldn't want to read the story through your lens.  It seems boring, rigid, arbitrary, and it's filled with citations.  I'd have to take every move by every character, and say that they're only as good at is as the level of opponent they used it successfully on.  Kakashi has two Zabuza level suitons, one Kisame level suiton, a shoten Itachi level doton uppercut, a somewhere below Deva level raiton, and Sound/Sand level kunai head stabbing.  Under my system, Kakashi is awesome and everything he does is pretty awesome.  I know this because it looked awesome, the characters told me it was awesome, and everyone says Kakashi is filled with awesome.  I call it the awesome system, and Kishimoto tends to use it (unsuccessfully in later chapters).


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## Mercurial (Aug 1, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If her smashy smashy worked on relevant high level characters, like Madara and Orochimaru, how is it easily countered by high level characters?
> 
> Wouldn't Madara have side stepped it, and killed her, like he did to these chumps?
> 
> ...



Madara was completely playing and Orochimaru, really, if you count that weakened armless Orochimaru as a high level character... Kakashi, Itachi, Sasuke, Obito, Madara all easily dodge and counter her with far better speed, more finesse, Sharingan precognition and other things (Sharingan genjutsu, unblockable Raiton piercing and cutting attacks, Susanoo, Kamui etc), Gai easily dodges and counter her with far better speed and far better finesse, Hashirama doese the same since he was keeping up with Madara's taijutsu, SM Kabuto, Deva Path, Tobirama, Killer B etc etc etc

By feats, yes, since Madara can casually react to full speed Ei while he is already busy dodging the Yoton that the Mizukage is using to try to distract him while Ei flanks him. But you know, Madara was joking for all the time the fights vs the Gokage lasted, it was child's play as he called it. He chose to play with them instead to just murk them, that he did when he wanted.

Kabuto dodged her hits god knows how many times (even before buffing himself with the chakra pill; he actually dodged her so much that both became tired) and tagged her a lot of times, good thing for her that he wasn't fighing seriously (1) ("I need to be a little more serious" ... hell he even gave her his back) and without killing intent (2) ("It would be troublesome if you were to die now"), so I don't know what you are saying with that.



FlamingRain said:


> What Pirate said.
> 
> But since I was in the middle of replying before finding out my dad had a flat tire I'm posting this anyway.
> 
> ...



Tsunade is strong (I mean not physically but in a general way) but she is actually not a high level character. Itachi, Tobirama, Shippuden Kakashi, Gated Gai, SM Kabuto, Minato, these for example are high level characters. Otherwise if she is a high level character tell me how high are these characters, and then how high are Hashirama and EMS Madara, and then how high are Rikudo powered characters, Otsutsuki family and 8th Gate Gai...

Databook stats are 97% of the times inconsistent with what the manga shows, so I won't even start with that. 

So rusty Tsunade doesn't need to be sober to defeat non Kyuubified part 1 Naruto, well that's good, but not that good.

The feat against poor part 1 Naruto is good and all but is impressive as much as genin Lee's speed. Tsunade's finesse was impressive for part 1 Naruto. Genin Lee's speed was impressive for other genin. Tsunade doesn't use finesse to fight strong characters, because they have more finesse than she does. Genin Lee's speed is nothing special compared to actual speedsters in the manga. She showed skill, but since she did that only against a weak opponent and she never did that against a strong opponent, it's not relevant if we talk about Tsunade vs Kisame, a really strong opponent. Part 1 Sasuke using Sharingan plus Chidori is "strong"; the same part 1 Sasuke using Sharingan plus Chidori compared to Rinnegan Sasuke using Sharingan plus Chidori, the same exact dojutsu and jutsu and physical movement, is completely fodder.


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## Mercurial (Aug 1, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Okay, show me scans of Hiashi using _finesse_ against high level opponents in the manga.  All I ever saw him do was spam big rotations and air palms, but I'm certain he did some sweet moves when I wasn't looking.
> 
> Otherwise I'll be forced to conclude that since that's all he did when he showed up, that that's all he can do.



Don't troll like Hussain, since you are a renowned poster, please. Hyuuga's taijutsu style is based on finesse, you can easily see that on even part 1 Neji, hell even on fodder part 1 Hinata. Hiashi is god knows how many times part 1 Neji in everything, you don't need feats to say that, even if one can't make comparisons with precision, he is a very skilled taijutsu fighter that bases his taijutsu on finesse. His hype as strongest member of the Hyuuga clan alone goes with that.

On the other part, Tsunade showed that she doesn't use finesse in real combat. She uses against a nearly fodder character, but almost every character stronger than a basic jonin level would do the same, so it's almost irrelevant. Tayuya's genjutsu can mindfuck, let's say, part 1 Rock Lee. So we know that Tayuya is at least good in genjutsu and can mindfuck people. Because of that, do you say that she can do the same to Tobirama or Mu for example? I don't think. But she showed genjutsu skills. That's the point. Tsunade showed taijutsu skills, she is skilled, definitely. But she is not that skilled, while she is hella strong, so when the opponent is not powerful, either her finesse or her strength are good enough; but if the opponent is powerful, her finesse is irrelevant, hence she bases on her strength.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 1, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Don't troll like Hussain, since you are a renowned poster, please. Hyuuga's taijutsu style is based on finesse, you can easily see that on even part 1 Neji, hell even on fodder part 1 Hinata. Hiashi is god knows how many times part 1 Neji in everything, you don't need feats to say that, even if one can't make comparisons with precision, he is a very skilled taijutsu fighter that bases his taijutsu on finesse. His hype as strongest member of the Hyuuga clan alone goes with that.
> 
> On the other part, Tsunade showed that she doesn't use finesse in real combat. She uses against a nearly fodder character, but almost every character stronger than a basic jonin level would do the same, so it's almost irrelevant. Tayuya's genjutsu can mindfuck, let's say, part 1 Rock Lee. So we know that Tayuya is at least good in genjutsu and can mindfuck people. Because of that, do you say that she can do the same to Tobirama or Mu for example? I don't think. But she showed genjutsu skills. That's the point. Tsunade showed taijutsu skills, she is skilled, definitely. But she is not that skilled, while she is hella strong, so when the opponent is not powerful, either her finesse or her strength are good enough; but if the opponent is powerful, her finesse is irrelevant, hence she bases on her strength.



It's not trolling, it's the logic you're feeding me, where you're holding two characters to different standards of evaluation. 

Tsunade needs better feats, and Kakashi thankfully had feats, but Hiashi gets by on the *portrayal of his clan*, and his *position*.

The Senju are an elite clan who were stronger or equal to the Uchihas.  Tsunade is a direct descendant of the two strongest Senju, and learned from them, and their apprentice.  (another Hokage, who was the God of Shinobi.)  These people fought the strongest of the Uchiha, who's power, items, jutsu, and techniques were the stuff of legends.  As heir to the clan, she is a taijutsu type, who developed her own internally adopted taijutsu style, and is world famous for her skill and strength and taijutsu.  She was such before she developed her strength of 100 jutsu, before she mastered her grandfather's regeneration jutsu, and before the development of her own taijutsu style, and applied such techniques whenever she refused to use, or was unable to use her strength to great effect.  She is accepted as equal to her fellow students, and was universally accepted to be a Hokage, as one who's strength and title and lineage would be enough to quell any doubts of Konoha's weakness in the eyes of world leaders.  She was given the lead by the Gokage, and she lead with taijutsu.

....but her taijutsu stinks, and in terms of application and finesse, it's pretty much only good against genin without super strength, because she just doesn't have the feats.  Kishi included those pages for no real reason.  Certainly not to give the impression she's got any skill that applies outside that one scene.  It isn't applicable, because she lacks satisfactory feats of finesse in real combat.  She mostly spams heavy punch and heavy kick.

Hiashi on the other hand is awesome and skilled and we know he has finesse, because Neji looked good against Naruto.  He's from a clan that's good at taijutsu, and it got great hype.  Sure, he himself only ever spammed big heavy jutsu and showed no finesse in real combat, but that's not really important, because we _know better._

That's my problem.  I demanded scans to point out how absurd I find those two positions to be.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 1, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Tsunade is strong (I mean not physically but in a general way) but she is actually not a high level character.



Every S-class and Kage level character, be they Kage, illustrious Jōnin, missing ninja such as Akatsuki, etc is a high level character.

The Sannin are more formidable forces than your run of the mill Kages, and so are high level characters. The existence of others stronger than them does not negate their status as high level characters.



> Databook stats are 97% of the times inconsistent with what the manga shows, so I won't even start with that.



There are nowhere near as many inconsistencies between the two as is often said, or as you're saying right now. Kishi still wrote them. It's more than likely that you need to just consider whether you're interpreting certain things correctly as opposed to the stats just being inconsistent 97% of the time.

Nothing in the manga has contradicted Tsunade possessing a maximal 5 out of 5 in Taijutsu. Everything from making Naruto her plaything while rusty and intoxicated, to requiring Kabuto come up with a plan to tire her out before engaging her when she was already rusty and in a blind rage even though he only needed a tap to get around her physical strength, to Sakura remembering Tsunade's lessons after grasping Sasori's offensive pattern based on his finger movements in a relatively short time, at least points in the other direction.

Even if they don't prove it on their own but they _suggest_ what the databook says.



> So rusty Tsunade doesn't need to be sober to defeat non Kyuubified part 1 Naruto, well that's good, but not that good.
> 
> Tsunade's finesse was impressive for part 1 Naruto. Tsunade doesn't use finesse to fight strong characters, because they have more finesse than she does.



Like I said, _"when you look at her you're supposed to go 'if she can do such and such while in this rusty state, imagine if she was actually in good condition', kind of like Kabuto did"_.

Skill doesn't mysteriously vanish just because the opponent is stronger either. I don't know who put that idea in your head, but you ought to go slap them. 

Kisame's databook statistic is lower, and he has never had a better display of _finesse_ than Tsunade in the first place.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 1, 2015)

@davizwiz
I can slap a bucket of water and aend the water splashing a meter high 

That feat against Gai sjows nothing at all . He sent water flying high by crashing down on it therefore he can send tsunade flying 

Still didn't provids any scabs of killer bee attempting to disarm Kisame and failing 

Also asuma did out perform him . Panels are there, asuma doesn't have to equal killer bee at all that's ur usual retarded logic


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 1, 2015)

jackieshann said:


> Kisame can't be any of them, he's strong but is not able to beat any of them



Explain that, please. Feats, canonical statements - everything goes. 

And you wasted your time rep-negging me. That wont help.


----------



## Grimsley (Aug 1, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Explain that, please. Feats, canonical statements - everything goes.
> 
> And you wasted your time rep-negging me. That wont help.



I don't like LaRepeating what someone else is saying - You should LaRead the last few pages and LaRetort any posts you LaDisagree with.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 1, 2015)

jackieshann said:


> I don't like LaRepeating what someone else is saying - You should LaRead the last few pages and LaRetort any posts you LaDisagree with.



I did. And i havent changed my mind. 

Tsunade beating Kisame is outright laughable, when she cant keep up with him even in CQC due to his speed advantage.


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## Grimsley (Aug 1, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> I did. And i havent changed my mind.
> 
> Tsunade beating Kisame is outright laughable, when she cant keep up with him even in CQC due to his speed advantage.



Your LaTrolling is weak.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2015)

Tsunade can't beat Kisame in a fight, her fighting style predicates her being within range of Samehada and that would result in her getting her chakra drained. If given the opportunity of disarming Kisame, while there is a good chance she would succeed, since Gai was able to do the same thing and both rated roof tier (which seems like a basic hand to hand combat technique), it still wouldn't end well for her, since the sword rejects anyone not named Kisame or Killer Bee.

Kisame would win against Tsunade with his sword (fused or unfused, doesn't matter) but stands a solid 50/50 with SM Jiraiya but loses to Orochimaru every time.


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## Matty (Aug 1, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Tsunade can't beat Kisame in a fight, her fighting style predicates her being within range of Samehada and that would result in her getting her chakra drained. If given the opportunity of disarming Kisame, while there is a good chance she would succeed, since Gai was able to do the same thing and both rated roof tier (which seems like a basic hand to hand combat technique), it still wouldn't end well for her, since the sword rejects anyone not named Kisame or Killer Bee.
> 
> Kisame would win against Tsunade with his sword (fused or unfused, doesn't matter) but stands a solid 50/50 with SM Jiraiya but loses to Orochimaru every time.



Hit the nail on the head


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 1, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Tsunade can't beat Kisame in a fight, her fighting style predicates her being within range of Samehada and that would result in her getting her chakra drained. If given the opportunity of disarming Kisame, while there is a good chance she would succeed, since Gai was able to do the same thing and both rated roof tier (which seems like a basic hand to hand combat technique), it still wouldn't end well for her, since the sword rejects anyone not named Kisame or Killer Bee.
> 
> Kisame would win against Tsunade with his sword (fused or unfused, doesn't matter) but stands a solid 50/50 with SM Jiraiya but loses to Orochimaru every time.


Tsunade can beat Kisame. She can easily avoid his sword strikes, disarm him and punch his head off. Samehada can't absorb ambient chakra so Kisame's primary advantage is gone. She also can just have Katsuyu tank every attack Kisame has.

Jiraiya in BASE is more than enough for Kisame, same with Orochimaru. The Sannin, as _Kisame himself said_ are just on a whole other level than he is.

Why do people downplay them so much?


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## Sadgoob (Aug 1, 2015)

If Bee didn't casually disarm Kisame, I don't see Tsunade doing it.

Her ground-shattering strength is also based on a skilled chakra release.

So absorption is going to tone down her strength by a lot.

And Kisame himself is 5+ in strength (bested Gai.)

So even if Kisame didn't use his ninjutsu to his advantage, he won't get smoked.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The Sannin, as _Kisame himself said_ are just on a whole other level than he is.



Majority of Sannin < Bee

Majority of Akatsuki members < Bee

Majority of Kage < Bee

Kisame > Bee

So that's an odd result of an insurmountable "level difference."


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade can beat Kisame. *She can easily avoid his sword strikes*, disarm him and _punch his head off_. Samehada can't absorb ambient chakra so Kisame's primary advantage is gone. She also can just have Katsuyu tank every attack Kisame has.


No she cannot easily avoid his sword strikes at all.


*Spoiler*: _Stats Comparison_ 



*Kisame:*



*Tsunade:*




Here you can see that Kisame is faster than her and has a tool to suck her chakra, he's going to have her on the defensive. While Tsunade is still in the same speed category as Wind Arc Naruto. 

She can disarm him, but she cannot use the sword and the sword has a will of it's own and would return to Kisame eventually. Katsuyu would get the chakra sucked out of her and if this fight ends up in the water dome, Tsunade's going to get shredded.

The problem is she has to get in close and Kisame is fast enough to hit her with Samehada which is going to suck her chakra. Kisame is one of the worst kind of opponents for her.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jiraiya in BASE is more than enough for Kisame, same with Orochimaru. The Sannin, as _Kisame himself said_ are just on a whole other level than he is.
> 
> Why do people downplay them so much?


Base Jiraiya cannot defeat Kisamehada in the water dome, best he can do is retreat, enter Sage Mode with Ma/Pa and return to the battlefield. He doesn't posses the speed, physical stats, sensing ability to take down Kisamehada. The fight becomes 50/50 in SM because with Sage Sensing, Jiraiya can also predict Kisame's attacks. However, he loses the ability to use Gama Rinsho and Kawazu Naki and would have to rely on his summons and senjutsu based ninjutsu in order to get out of there.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 1, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> No she cannot easily avoid his sword strikes at all.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Stats Comparison_
> ...


Tsunade also trained to be highly evasive. A .5 speed difference isn't enough. She has better taijutsu and her evasion training gives her the edge. She's a taijutsu master over Kisame, which means she can avoid his strikes and predict his rather well telegraphed moves.


> She can disarm him, but she cannot use the sword and the sword has a will of it's own and would return to Kisame eventually. Katsuyu would get the chakra sucked out of her and if this fight ends up in the water dome, Tsunade's going to get shredded.


She can just regenerate her hands but no one said she has to use Samehada against Kisame. She just has to disarm it, toss it out of the battlefield and punch a hole through his chest or head. Which she can do easily.

And Samehada can't consume chakra by just touching a person or summon animal, the chakra needs to be visible for it to absorb. 



> The problem is she has to get in close and Kisame is fast enough to hit her with Samehada which is going to suck her chakra. Kisame is one of the worst kind of opponents for her.


No, its the other way around. Tsunade's entire fighting style is a nightmare for Kisame to fight. Her taijutsu is better, her evasion skills are better, and her experience is higher. Kisame will be a pin ball and crushed.



> Base Jiraiya cannot defeat Kisamehada in the water dome, best he can do is retreat, enter Sage Mode with Ma/Pa and return to the battlefield.


Or he could just wait for Kisame to come close, do summoning and trap Kisame in the stomach of a toad? Or he could sink the Water Dome with Yomi Numa (Doton > Suiton). In Sage Mode Jiraiya shits on Kisame so much its not even funny.


> He doesn't posses the speed, physical stats, sensing ability to take down Kisamehada.


Base Jiraiya has a 5 in ninjutsu, 4.5 in taijutsu (higher than Kisame), 4.5 in speed (higher than Kisame) and a 5 in stamina (same as Kisame). He literally is on an higher level than Kisame, just as Kisame admitted.


> The fight becomes 50/50 in SM because with Sage Sensing, Jiraiya can also predict Kisame's attacks. However, he loses the ability to use Gama Rinsho and Kawazu Naki and would have to rely on his summons and senjutsu based ninjutsu in order to get out of there.


Or Jiraiya can just trap Kisame in a barrier toad's stomach and let him dissolve in acid in base. 

Seriously, Kisame is much weaker than the Sannin. All three are on a higher tier than him, JUST AS HE ADMITTED!

Ryuzaki, why do you have such a low opinion on the Sannin, and why do you wank the likes of Kisame or Guy so much?


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 1, 2015)

Strength in the Narutoverse builds upon the concept of type match ups, so there could theoretically be a case in which Kisame beats somebody admittedly in another tier. It normally wouldn't be the case, but the chance it is is there.

Bee is on a whole other level to Kisame too, but many of the Jinchūriki abilities that make him that strong in the first place actually work in Kisame's favor, and he ended up losing when they fought.

I think each of the Sannin should beat him, though.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why do people downplay them so much?



I think a lot of the time it's more about overrating the other participant(s) than downplaying the Sannin.

Maybe not in this case, but often.




Strategoob said:


> If Bee didn't casually disarm Kisame, I don't see Tsunade doing it.



It's not like he actually tried to take it and then failed.



> Her crushing strength is also based on a skilled chakra release.
> 
> So absorption is going to tone down her strength a lot.



It's an _internal_ charge released _in the instant she makes contact_. Samehada will probably be devastated before it eats her Chakra, because it needs to maintain physical contact for a moment to eat Chakra that isn't manifested externally (as demonstrated by the incidents with _Asuma_, _Gai_, and _base Bee_ compared to Naruto and Bee with auras).


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 2, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade also trained to be highly evasive. A .5 speed difference isn't enough. She has better taijutsu and her evasion training gives her the edge. She's a taijutsu master over Kisame, which means she can avoid his strikes and predict his rather well telegraphed moves.


A .5 tier difference is enormous, ask Kakuzu, who got blindsided by Kakashi to the point where he couldn't even sense Kakashi's presence on his approach. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> She* can just regenerate her hands* but no one said she has to use Samehada against Kisame. She just has to disarm it, toss it out of the battlefield and punch a hole through his chest or head. Which she can do easily.


She cannot regenerate limbs, if she loses an hand, arm and/or leg, she won't be able to regrow it. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Samehada can't consume chakra by just touching a person or summon animal, the chakra needs to be visible for it to absorb.


How do you think the Byakgoku works? Her chakra wraps around her.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, its the other way around. Tsunade's entire fighting style is a nightmare for Kisame to fight. Her taijutsu is better, her evasion skills are better, and her experience is higher. Kisame will be a pin ball and crushed.


No one says she isn't greater in taijutsu, but there are somethings that she cannot overcome and Kisame's just a monster. Tsunade's punching power is probably greater than his but at the same time, he's overbearing normal strength, as he overwhelmed both Asuma and Gai with just a portion of his strength. Gai who is rated a 5. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Or he could just wait for Kisame to come close, do summoning and trap Kisame in the stomach of a toad? Or he could sink the Water Dome with Yomi Numa (Doton > Suiton). In Sage Mode Jiraiya shits on Kisame so much its not even funny.
> 
> Base Jiraiya has a 5 in ninjutsu, 4.5 in taijutsu (higher than Kisame), 4.5 in speed (higher than Kisame) and a 5 in stamina (same as Kisame). He literally is on an higher level than Kisame, just as Kisame admitted.


Jiraiya has him beat in speed and the 5 in ninjutsu is due to his versatility which Kisame truly lacks. However, my assertions about Jiraiya getting wrecked were all when Base Jiraiya is trapped in the water-dome. Kisame has an overwhelming speed advantage and Jiraiya needs SM to compete.  

Kisame's stamina is much greater than Jiraiya's, this was already proven in the manga and then-some.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Or Jiraiya can just trap Kisame in a barrier toad's stomach and let him dissolve in acid in base.
> 
> Seriously, Kisame is much weaker than the Sannin. All three are on a higher tier than him, JUST AS HE ADMITTED!


We've already gone down this road, the statement obviously doesn't hold fruit anymore. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Ryuzaki, why do you have such a low opinion on the Sannin, and why do you wank the likes of Kisame or Guy so much?


I don't, I genuinely believe that Tsunade isn't worthy of the Sannin title.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> A .5 tier difference is enormous, ask Kakuzu, who got blindsided by Kakashi to the point where he couldn't even sense Kakashi's presence on his approach.


Kakuzu had been given HOW many distractions for that to happen? Choji plowing into him, Hidan being controlled to fight him, him boxed into a corner? 



> She cannot regenerate limbs, if she loses an hand, arm and/or leg, she won't be able to regrow it.


Sozo Saisei and Byakugo can regenerate limbs, its regeneration superior to Orochimaru's which can regenerate limbs.



> How do you think the Byakgoku works? Her chakra wraps around her.


Which is still interior, protected from absorption by fuinjutsu seals. Its not visible.



> No one says she isn't greater in taijutsu, but there are somethings that she cannot overcome and Kisame's just a monster. Tsunade's punching power is probably greater than his but at the same time, he's overbearing normal strength, as he overwhelmed both Asuma and Gai with just a portion of his strength. Gai who is rated a 5.


Tsunade was able to lift and wield _Gamabunta's sword_. Next to Sage Mode, Kurama Powered, and Juubi Powered shinobi, she's physically the strongest shinobi in the entire manga. And that's when she was weaker, not when she was at full power in the War Arc. Her strength shits on Kisame's so much its not even funny.



> Jiraiya has him beat in speed and the 5 in ninjutsu is due to his versatility which Kisame truly lacks. However, my assertions about Jiraiya getting wrecked were all when Base Jiraiya is trapped in the water-dome. Kisame has an overwhelming speed advantage and Jiraiya needs SM to compete.


You...do realize all Jiraiya has to do is just lure Kisame to him and bam, summons the toad throat around them and summons himself out, right? Or uses the barrier toad and drops Kisame in a vat of acid?


> Kisame's stamina is much greater than Jiraiya's, this was already proven in the manga and then-some.


They both have a 5 in that stat. Jiraiya's stamina and chakra levels were compared to _Naruto's_ by Fukasaku himself. So no, kind of wrong and downplaying here.



> We've already gone down this road, the statement obviously doesn't hold fruit anymore.


Why? Because its Kisame over characters you have low opinions of?



> I don't, I genuinely believe that Tsunade isn't worthy of the Sannin title.


>Defeating Orochimaru despite two decades worth of rustiness being built up
>Wields Gamabunta's sword and defeats Manda
>Overwhelms a Kakashi-level shinobi (Kabuto) despite rustiness
>Cures _Tsukuyomi_, helps Rock Lee become a ninja again
>Tanks Cho Shinra Tensei while saving the entirety of the villagers caught up in it
>Smashes _Madara's_ Susano'o, overwhelms him up close and forces him to use a Wood Bushin Substitute
>Holds her own against five Susano'o, defeats one
>Summons Katsuyu _despite being cut in half_ and heals the Gokage from life threatening injuries

How isn't she worthy of the Sannin title again? Oh wait, its because you have a low opinion on her and the Sannin in general.


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 2, 2015)

Sōzō Saisei's regenerative ability is superior to Orochimaru's white snake regeneration?

Also:



jackieshann said:


> I don't like *La*Repeating what someone else is saying - You should *La*Read the last few pages and LaRetort any posts you *La*Disagree with.





jackieshann said:


> Your *La*Trolling is weak.



???


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 2, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Sōzō Saisei's regenerative ability is superior to Orochimaru's white snake regeneration?


Orochimaru seemed to imply so seeing Sozo Saisei in action, and it was compared to Hashirama's own regen which is at a very high level.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 2, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kakuzu had been given HOW many distractions for that to happen? Choji plowing into him, Hidan being controlled to fight him, him boxed into a corner?


He was actually aware of himself and talking, Kakashi came at him while he was speaking. Kakashi didn't hit him while he was distracted but blitzed him while he was still talking.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sozo Saisei and Byakugo *can regenerate limbs*, its regeneration superior to Orochimaru's which can regenerate limbs.


No where in the manga does it mention she can regrow new limbs, nor is it backed by the databook. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Which is still interior, protected from absorption by fuinjutsu seals. Its not visible.


Not at all, that sword eats chakra, it will rip of her byakogu like it did with Bee's V1/V2 cloak. Her chakra was infused in it and lays over her body just like a bijuu's cloak, still empowered with chakra.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade was able to lift and wield _Gamabunta's sword_. Next to Sage Mode, Kurama Powered, and Juubi Powered shinobi, she's physically the strongest shinobi in the entire manga. And that's when she was weaker, not when she was at full power in the War Arc. Her strength shits on Kisame's so much its not even funny.


Forgot about her lifting Bunta's sword, I'll concede that point.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You...do realize all Jiraiya has to do is just lure Kisame to him and bam, summons the toad throat around them and summons himself out, right? Or uses the barrier toad and drops Kisame in a vat of acid?


That was while he was in senjutsu.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> They both have a 5 in that stat. Jiraiya's stamina and chakra levels were compared to _Naruto's_ by Fukasaku himself. So no, kind of wrong and downplaying here.


Kisame had the most chakra in the Akatsuki, more than Nagato, who basically solo'd the village.




SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why? Because its Kisame over characters you have low opinions of?
> 
> >Defeating Orochimaru despite two decades worth of rustiness being built up
> >Wields Gamabunta's sword and defeats Manda
> ...


Any of these Part 1 feats are useless because Orochimaru was armless and lacked his jutsu. If it was Orochimaru that fought Hiruzen, she gets butchered. Her job is a medic, I don't see why she ends up on the level as Orochimaru/Jiraiya based solely on her medical skills. That's like saying Jiraiya deserves to be a sannin only because of his reconnaissance skills or Orochimaru because of his modified body.

Look, no one is downplaying her accomplishments but if you put either of her teammates in her situations, they would technically perform better than her and by a massive margin. 

When Part 2 rolled around, the buffs that both Orochimaru and Jiraiya acquired shit on anything that Tsunade has shown up to this point. Tsunade can no longer compete with them, while her teammates reached new heights they left her in dust, ergo, she doesn't deserve the title. 

In Part 1, they were all relatively even.


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> No where in the manga does it mention she can regrow new limbs, nor is it backed by the databook.



You must've forgotten then.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Uploading a picture of that scan is far more effort than this debate is worth. But I'll give it to you just this once.
> 
> 
> ​​


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> He was actually aware of himself and talking, Kakashi came at him while he was speaking. Kakashi didn't hit him while he was distracted but blitzed him while he was still talking.


Kakashi got behind him while he was distracted by the others. Then he stabbed him through with a Raikiri. At no point did he blitz him. He went for an assassination technique.



> No where in the manga does it mention she can regrow new limbs, nor is it backed by the databook.


She can regenerate organs. She could heal herself from being cut in half. She can regenerate limbs due to feats like that.



> Not at all, that sword eats chakra, it will rip of her byakogu like it did with Bee's V1/V2 cloak. Her chakra was infused in it and lays over her body just like a bijuu's cloak, still empowered with chakra.


No it won't. Bee's V1 and V2 cloak are extremely different to Byakugo. Thats visible chakra + physcally formed around Bee, that's why Samehada could absorb it. Byakugo is internal, that's how it heals the body. Samehada has never shown the ability to absorb internal chakra, especially since Asuma and Guy never commented on a chakra drain just by touching it.



> That was while he was in senjutsu.


He could still use it out of Sage Mode. He exited it without Sage Mode. Its just a special summon he can use anytime. Just like the toad throat which would also apply in this situation.



> Kisame had the most chakra in the Akatsuki, more than Nagato, who basically solo'd the village.


And Jiraiya had as much chakra as _Naruto_ does. Both he and Kisame are chakra monsters.




> Any of these Part 1 feats are useless because Orochimaru was armless and lacked his jutsu. If it was Orochimaru that fought Hiruzen, she gets butchered. Her job is a medic, I don't see why she ends up on the level as Orochimaru/Jiraiya based solely on her medical skills. That's like saying Jiraiya deserves to be a sannin only because of his reconnaissance skills or Orochimaru because of his modified body.


Her taijutsu skills are incredible. Her medical skills are insane. She's earned her place. Again, she blew apart MADARA'S body and forced him to use a Wood Clone so he wouldn't be sealed. She could smash through Susano'o, do you have any idea how impressive that is? How isn't she Sannin level or Kage level?


> Look, no one is downplaying her accomplishments but if you put either of her teammates in her situations, they would technically perform better than her and by a massive margin.


You ARE downplaying her accomplishments. You are flat out ignoring some of her best feats to make Jiraiya and Orochimaru (and by extension Kisame) on another level than she is.

Tell me, how would Jiraiya protect the villagers from Cho Shinra Tensei? Get Gaara and Onoki back into fighting shape? Battle five Susano'o at once? 


> When Part 2 rolled around, the buffs that both Orochimaru and Jiraiya acquired shit on anything that Tsunade has shown up to this point. Tsunade can no longer compete with them, while her teammates reached new heights they left her in dust, ergo, she doesn't deserve the title.


Tsunade reveals Byakugo, which increased her regeneration and power by a factor of 100 (that's what the technique means, Strength of the Hundred). She demolished Madara's fucking Susano'o twice over. She forced Madara to use a Wood Clone after she landed a hit that blew his body apart. 


> In Part 1, they were all relatively even.


Only if you don't look at her feats.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 2, 2015)

> FlamingRain said:
> 
> 
> > You must've forgotten then.
> ...


Why are both Sasuke and Naruto walking around with arms that don't belong to them? Why did Madara require Zetsu's arm and not regrow an arm?

It's probably a mistake or has been retconned since even the Databook doesn't describe it anymore than "damaged parts" and doesn't mention anything revolving limbs.


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kakashi got behind him while he was distracted by the others. Then he stabbed him through with a Raikiri. At no point did he blitz him. He went for an assassination technique.


Doesn't matter, the speed gap between Kakashi and Kakuzu was the same as Kisame and Tsunade, so for him to exploit that, it isn't going to be a problem.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No it won't. Bee's V1 and V2 cloak are extremely different to Byakugo. Thats visible chakra + physcally formed around Bee, that's why Samehada could absorb it. *Byakugo is internal*, that's how it heals the body. Samehada has never shown the ability to absorb internal chakra, especially since Asuma and Guy never commented on a chakra drain just *by touching it*.


The jutsu is still chakra-based and it releases stored chakra from her head to the rest of her body. How is that any different from receiving chakra from a bijuu? 

Plus, here is Killer Bee not in V1/V2 cloak, having the chakra sucked out of him, with Samehada just touching him.

So, Kisame sucks her dry 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He could still use it out of Sage Mode. He exited it without Sage Mode. Its just a special summon he can use anytime. Just like the toad throat which would also apply in this situation.


He only used it in SM, but yeah, you're probably right, he could summon it without SM. But the problem is in his base form, he's not going to be able to do it in time because while underwater, Kisame still has the speed advantage, the sensing advantage and etc. The only reason he was able to get the other Pain in there was because it had attacked him. However, Kisamehada attacks too fast for Jiraiya to react to.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Jiraiya had as much chakra as _Naruto_ does. Both he and Kisame are chakra monsters.



Jiraiya does not have the same amount of chakra as Naruto, because Naruto has a bijuu and Kisame has the largest amount of chakra in the Akatsuki. That's more than Nagato, Sasori, Hidan, Kakuzu and etc. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Her taijutsu skills are incredible. Her medical skills are insane. She's earned her place. Again, she blew apart MADARA'S body and forced him to use a Wood Clone so he wouldn't be sealed. She could smash through Susano'o, do you have any idea how impressive that is? How isn't she Sannin level or Kage level?


Her medical skill is the only thing that is worthy of commenting, forcing someone to use a clone, especially an ET Madara when he was fighting 1 vs. 5, isn't an accomplishment, it's the most banal performance from a group of 5 shinobi I've ever seen. 

I never said she wasn't kage level, I just said after Part 2, the Sannin level changed and that she couldn't compete the other two, which is true. Therefore, she doesn't deserve the moniker anymore.   



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You ARE downplaying her accomplishments. You are flat out ignoring some of her best feats to make Jiraiya and Orochimaru (and by extension Kisame) on another level than she is.


I'm stating the obvious, she's slower, Kisame is faster and has a chakra sucking weapon, her fighting still is completely CQC while Kisame can spam jutsu from a range, put her in a water dome, spout a lake and use 1,000 sharks to attack her or use the water-style kamehameha.

Kisame is just a bad match up for Tsunade.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tell me, how would Jiraiya protect the villagers from Cho Shinra Tensei? Get Gaara and Onoki back into fighting shape? Battle five Susano'o at once?


There are certain things only she can do, which are medically related, no one is ever going to take that from her. But, the 5 Susano'o, Jiraiya would have beaten those clones and went ahead to assist the other kage if he was in that scenario. Orochimaru would have done the same. Both of these guys rely heavily on their summons in battle, which is usually going to be the tide turner in these situations. While, even in battle against 5 Susano'o's Tsunade didn't opt to use Katsuyu even for defensive purposes.

You can't expect me to believe that she's on Jiraiya and Orochimaru's level, when having either of them substitute in for her, against Edo Madara would be a game changer.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade reveals Byakugo, which increased her regeneration and power by a factor of 100 (that's what the technique means, Strength of the Hundred). She demolished Madara's fucking Susano'o twice over. She forced Madara to use a Wood Clone after she landed a hit that blew his body apart.
> 
> Only if you don't look at her feats.


She's kage level, but you can't say she's on the same level as the other two anymore. There's a huge gap between Orochimaru/Jiraiya and Tsunade.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 2, 2015)

jackieshann said:


> Your LaTrolling is weak.



You are funny.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Why are both Sasuke and Naruto walking around with arms that don't belong to them? Why did Madara require Zetsu's arm and not regrow an arm?
> 
> It's probably a mistake or has been retconned since even the Databook doesn't describe it anymore than "damaged parts" and doesn't mention anything revolving limbs.


Neither Sasuke or Naruto have Sozo Saisei, nor does Madara. Tsunade flat out said she can regrow limbs using it. 


> Doesn't matter, the speed gap between Kakashi and Kakuzu was the same as Kisame and Tsunade, so for him to exploit that, it isn't going to be a problem.


Except it DOES matter. Kakuzu was able to easily react to Kakashi after that. It wasn't even a blitz, it was a sneak attack. 

Kisame won't be able to blitz Tsunade, nor will he be able to land a blow due to her superior taijutsu and evasion skills. Hell he telegraphs his moves so much it'll be easy for her to read the movements and avoid them.



> The jutsu is still chakra-based and it releases stored chakra from her head to the rest of her body. How is that any different from receiving chakra from a bijuu?


Since the chakra is INTERNAL, not external. Kisame and Samehada only had been able to absorb external chakra.


> Plus, here is Killer Bee not in V1/V2 cloak, having the chakra sucked out of him, with Samehada just touching him.
> 
> So, Kisame sucks her dry


Tsunade uppercuts Samehada and breaks its jaw. It physically BITE Killer Bee to do that, not a simple slash.



> He only used it in SM, but yeah, you're probably right, he could summon it without SM. But the problem is in his base form, he's not going to be able to do it in time because while underwater, Kisame still has the speed advantage, the sensing advantage and etc. The only reason he was able to get the other Pain in there was because it had attacked him. However, Kisamehada attacks too fast for Jiraiya to react to.


No, he's really not. Base Jiraiya has the speed and reflexes to react to Kisame in the water. Summoning is one of the fastest techs to do for this situation.




> Jiraiya does not have the same amount of chakra as Naruto, because Naruto has a bijuu and Kisame has the largest amount of chakra in the Akatsuki. That's more than Nagato, Sasori, Hidan, Kakuzu and etc.


You do remember the perquisites for Sage Mode is an _enormous_ quantity of chakra, right?



> Her medical skill is the only thing that is worthy of commenting, forcing someone to use a clone, especially an ET Madara when he was fighting 1 vs. 5, isn't an accomplishment, it's the most banal performance from a group of 5 shinobi I've ever seen.


She was the only Kage able to ever make Edo Tensei Madara go that far. If he was a second off, he'd have been sealed and Tsunade would have defeated him. 


> I never said she wasn't kage level, I just said after Part 2, the Sannin level changed and that she couldn't compete the other two, which is true. Therefore, she doesn't deserve the moniker anymore.


Tsunade defeated a Susano'o Wood Release Clone, shatters Susano'o with her fists, and can protect the entire village ON her own and tank Cho Shinra Tensei.



> I'm stating the obvious, she's slower, Kisame is faster and has a chakra sucking weapon, her fighting still is completely CQC while Kisame can spam jutsu from a range, put her in a water dome, spout a lake and use 1,000 sharks to attack her or use the water-style kamehameha.
> 
> Kisame is just a bad match up for Tsunade.


Its the other way around. For the same reason why Guy is a perfect counter for Kisame, Tsunade is too. She's more agile than Kisame. She can read his moves and disarm him. She can punch his head off before he can react after he overextends herself.



> There are certain things only she can do, which are medically related, no one is ever going to take that from her. But, the 5 Susano'o, Jiraiya would have beaten those clones and went ahead to assist the other kage if he was in that scenario. Orochimaru would have done the same. Both of these guys rely heavily on their summons in battle, which is usually going to be the tide turner in these situations. While, even in battle against 5 Susano'o's Tsunade didn't opt to use Katsuyu even for defensive purposes.


HOW would Jiraya and Orochimaru be able to defeat one clone, much less five considering they were turning all the Kages besides Onoki and Tsunade into ragdolls? 


> You can't expect me to believe that she's on Jiraiya and Orochimaru's level, when having either of them substitute in for her, against Edo Madara would be a game changer.


She is. Tsunade is their level and showed plenty of feats which back that up. 



> She's kage level, but you can't say she's on the same level as the other two anymore. There's a huge gap between Orochimaru/Jiraiya and Tsunade.


There is not a huge gap. Tsunade has been on their level for a long time. You keep downplaying her and ignoring several things.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 2, 2015)

> Kisame won't be able to blitz Tsunade, nor will he be able to land a blow due to her superior taijutsu and evasion skills. Hell he telegraphs his moves so much it'll be easy for her to read the movements and avoid them.



*Can somebody ask SuperSaiyaMan to bring here Tsunade's speed feats? Because he ignores me. She is a taijutsu master and, thanks to that, can evade Kisame's blows no problem? What a hell? Kisame is a sword master and has Samehada. Check mate, SuperSaiyaMan. *

Also, what she is going to do against Daikodan? Against Waterdome with it's sharks? 

How in the world she can beat him?


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Why are both Sasuke and Naruto walking around with arms that don't belong to them?



To show that Sōzō Saisei can only be applied to the user herself.



> Why did Madara require Zetsu's arm and not regrow an arm?



I don't know. It doesn't matter anyway.

Madara saw Tsunade using Shosen on the other Kages and said Hashirama's ability was superior _on the basis that he required no hand seals_, not because the actual reparative ability was better.

The second databook entry on medical ninjutsu says regrowing entire organs and limbs is impossible with Shosen. Sōzō Saisei is the _ultimate_ medical ninjutsu _because it can_ regrow entire organs and limbs. It's a complete regeneration.

When the fan translation of the databook says "all parts" it is referring to "body parts" which includes somebody's limbs.


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 2, 2015)

Maybe because regrowing a limb should take it's time. The only one whose injury was healed quick was Juudara's. However, that's Juubi Jin level of regeneration.


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## Jad (Aug 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Maybe because regrowing a limb should take it's time. The only one whose injury was healed quick was Juudara's. However, that's Juubi Jin level of regeneration.



Madara has Sage Chakra to amplify ninjutsu technique though. And secondly, every time 'Regeneration' takes place, there is a small cloudy/smoky aura that shows on the injuries being healed, yet nothing for the missing arm. It didn't even attempt to regenerate.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except it DOES matter. Kakuzu was able to easily react to Kakashi after that. It wasn't even a blitz, it was a sneak attack.


The point I'm trying to get across in an all out blitz, Kakuzu was unable to sense his approach. It's one thing, if he just caught off guard, it's another if he couldn't even sense him approaching. That's the difference half a tier makes.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kisame won't be able to blitz Tsunade, nor will he be able to land a blow due to her superior taijutsu and evasion skills. Hell he telegraphs his moves so much it'll be easy for her to read the movements and avoid them.


Why not? He was able to do so with a shouten clone against Gai. Gai is not only much faster than Tsunade, but he's has better taijutsu and weapons experience than Tsunade does. Kisame could easily make several water clones and put her in a water prison or attack her with ranged ninjutsu like he did against Gai.

Plus it's not Tsunade's style to dodge an attack, she'd rather take it head on, which is what she did against Madara.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since the chakra is INTERNAL, not external. Kisame and Samehada only had been able to absorb external chakra.


Not at all, we can clearly see it wrapping around Tsunade's body, so it's clearly not internal. Did it say it was in the databook? If so, please point it out.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade uppercuts Samehada and breaks its jaw. It physically BITE Killer Bee to do that, not a simple slash.


No, you said that Samehada couldn't eat her chakra just by touching her and that chakra needed to be visible in order for Samehada to eat. That's obviously not the case, as Killer Bee got the chakra sucked out of him and Byakogu is clearly visible as it is seen wrapping around her body.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, he's really not. Base Jiraiya has the speed and reflexes to react to Kisame in the water. Summoning is one of the fastest techs to do for this situation.


No he doesn't, where did you get that idea? Even Hachibi stated against Bee that there is no way that Killer Bee could beat Kisame in the Water Prison and Killer Bee in any of his forms (Base, V1, V2) has established himself to be faster than Base Jiraiya.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do remember the perquisites for Sage Mode is an _enormous_ quantity of chakra, right?


None of this indicates or supports your initial assertion that Jiraiya has more chakra than Kisame. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> She was the only Kage able to ever make Edo Tensei Madara go that far. If he was a second off, he'd have been sealed and Tsunade would have defeated him.
> 
> Tsunade defeated a Susano'o Wood Release Clone, shatters Susano'o with her fists, and can protect the entire village ON her own and tank Cho Shinra Tensei.


Among the kages that's an awesome feat, but it was also 5 kages vs. 1 Madara, so again not much of an accomplishment, in fact they should have done more than what they showed. The best feat Tsunade had was shattering Susano'o but again, she didn't do it all on her own, she had help with other kage. But Oonoki had the best feats throughout the entire Gokage fight, he was the clear-cut MVP candidate on the kages, followed by Gaara.

Both Jiraiya and Orochimaru on their own had a better skill-set to defeat Madara and if you couple that with the other kage, then their chances of success would increase. Tsunade did the best she could with what she had, but it obviously wasn't enough, which is why she is so low on the bar and they are so high.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its the other way around. For the same reason why Guy is a perfect counter for Kisame, Tsunade is too. She's more agile than Kisame. She can read his moves and disarm him. She can punch his head off before he can react after he overextends herself.


The difference is Gai is fast enough to where his taijutsu causes problems for Kisame. Tsunade maybe an expert, but lacks the proper speed to be an actual threat, if Kisame was able to hit Gai with his jutsu, he's most definitely going to be able to crush a much slower Tsuande whose fighting style is predicated around CQC.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> HOW would Jiraya and Orochimaru be able to defeat one clone, much less five considering they were turning all the Kages besides Onoki and Tsunade into ragdolls?
> 
> She is. Tsunade is their level and showed plenty of feats which back that up.


After seeing the size of Susano'o, Jiraiya would immediately summon Bunta, Ken and/or Hiro for assistance or buy time with Yomi Numa. Orochimaru would be able to summon several snakes and in fact, is the only one who could completely neutralize Edo Madara via poison. Orochimaru holds an innate advantage over him, Hashirama, Zetsu clones or anyone in particular using Hashirama's body.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> There is not a huge gap. Tsunade has been on their level for a long time. You keep downplaying her and ignoring several things.


The gap is obviously there if you consider their jutsu arsenal, both Orochimaru and Jiraiya do much better than Tsunade did. In fact, both of those two would defeat their 5 Susano'o opponents and move onto assisting the other kages.



FlamingRain said:


> I don't know. It doesn't matter anyway.
> 
> Madara saw Tsunade using Shosen on the other Kages and said Hashirama's ability was superior _on the basis that he required no hand seals_, not because the actual reparative ability was better.
> 
> ...


As described by the manga, the basis of the jutsu is *stimulating proteins and increase the wound healing process* but there is a physiological limit to that. If she doesn't have her arm anymore, there are no proteins or cells to stimulate in order to recreate her limbs. If her limbs were severely damaged but maintained general structure, she would be able to regrow that limb back to full strength. But, if she's missing it all together (as if someone cleanly lops it off), I do not see how she does that.

At best, she would get an excessive scar formation (usually called a stump, were her limbs would be). As I believe, her jutsu is limited to basic human physiology, which is why she is unable to heal people that lose an eye or lose a limb in battle.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 3, 2015)

I'm hoping you just hate Tsunade that much, because otherwise you have to be a special kind of stupid if you think I'm about to listen to you argue against what the manga explicitly states on the basis of the manga's explanation for what it says.

*What we are discussing is fiction.* It does not have to make sense in real-life, because Kishimoto is not obligated to adhere to real-life scientific limitations in regards to the powers and abilities within the story.

This is a story where human bodies can apparently turn wholly into water, paper, a conglomerate of snakes, people function as heart canisters inside a puppet body, talk as a head, jump around while their spine is impaled, and pop each others eyeballs in and out of their sockets and start using them right away, etc. 

Kishimoto is no real scientist, so we the readers can just get with the program.

If Sōzō Saisei faces the same limitations as normal medical techniques, like you are suggesting, I'd wonder why Tsunade even bothered developing it, why she made a distinction between a simple recovery ability and its regeneration, and why it's called the ultimate.

The reasonable person would think it's because it can restore what Shosen cannot, like the manga and databook say it can.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 3, 2015)

Kishimoto told me Tsunade isn't Sannin level.


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## Sans (Aug 3, 2015)

He told me you're incapable of showing love to those you care about.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I'm hoping you just hate Tsunade that much, because otherwise you have to be a special kind of stupid if you think I'm about to listen to you argue against what the manga explicitly states on the basis of the manga's explanation for what it says.
> 
> *What we are discussing is fiction.* It does not have to make sense in real-life, because Kishimoto is not obligated to adhere to real-life scientific limitations in regards to the powers and abilities within the story.
> 
> ...


I don't hate her, in fact, while reading the manga, I actually gave her more credit in the battledome than most. And, yes, I know it's a manga, but Kishimoto went out of his way to include at the very least high school level biology/medicine, I haven't trump that in any shape/form. 

The idea that she cannot regrow *chopped off* limbs came from the manga, when Orochimaru suggested killing her via chopping her head off. I suggested that her technique is limited by basic human physiology, as in most everything can regrow back except for a select few tissues.

The reason why she invented it is because of the regenerative speed, she basically compresses what would normally take months to recover into a few moments. Normally, injuries that would be automatically fatal, can be circumvented using this technique.

If she gets her arm chopped clean off, she could reattach it without a problem, but she more than likely isn't going to be able to regrow another one. I know Kishimoto isn't a scientist but he did go out of his way to include science, so I'm only using what he has shown.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I don't hate her, in fact, while reading the manga, I actually gave her more credit in the battledome than most.



Surely you realize I'm going to have a hard time buying that from anybody who thinks Tsunade was titled a Sannin and is feared as a Sannin because she isn't even worthy of the title of Sannin.



> And, yes, I know it's a manga, but Kishimoto went out of his way to include at the very least high school level biology/medicine, I haven't trump that in any shape/form.



High schoolers know that each of those things I just named off in my previous post would not be possible in real life, so no.

Real life physiological limitations are simply not necessarily imposed on Ninjutsu. If a Jutsu's mechanics are stated and/or shown to enable effects that would not be seen in real life, then so be it. There are far more bizarre things in the manga than the prospect of Tsunade regrowing her limbs.

The body is restored to its _uninjured_ state because Sōzō Saisei grants _complete_ regeneration whereas the other medical techniques cannot. They don't regenerate, they only heal, which is why regrowing whole/entire organs (and limbs) is impossible for them.



> Orochimaru suggested killing her via chopping her head off.



Except this never happened.



> I suggested that her technique is limited by basic human physiology, as in most everything can regrow back except for a select few tissues.



Which shows your suggestion is probably false, since the databook says "all", not "most"...



> The reason why she invented it is because of the regenerative speed, she basically compresses what would normally take months to recover into a few moments.



_Shosen_ can do that, so no. This fails as an explanation for why Tsunade bothered developing it, why she made a distinction between a mere healing/recovery ability and its regeneration, and why it is considered "the ultimate".


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 3, 2015)

> A .5 tier difference is enormous, ask Kakuzu, who got blindsided by Kakashi to the point where he couldn't even sense Kakashi's presence on his approach.



You mean when Kakashi entirely hid his presence and ambushed a distracted Kakuzu who didn't even know Kakashi was in the battle from behind?  

That's not a speed feat, or an example of .5 making a difference.  It's Kakashi pulling off a sneak assassination.  If you're talking about later, they were relatively even, and Kakuzu strung up Kakashi - which wouldn't have happened if Kakashi's .5 speed advantage was enormous.  Then Kakuzu was beaten by Naruto, who had a .5 speed _disadvantage_.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 3, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Kishimoto told me Tsunade isn't Sannin level.



He said it with his eyes.

Like how you tell Kom you love him.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You mean when Kakashi entirely hid his presence and ambushed a distracted Kakuzu who didn't even know Kakashi was in the battle from behind?
> 
> That's not a speed feat, or an example of .5 making a difference.  It's Kakashi pulling off a sneak assassination.  If you're talking about later, they were relatively even, and Kakuzu strung up Kakashi - which wouldn't have happened if Kakashi's .5 speed advantage was enormous.  Then Kakuzu was beaten by Naruto, who had a .5 speed _disadvantage_.


However, Naruto had to use clones and won because of that, assuming Tsunade is able to distract him with something, she could get in close to but again it's out of character for her to do so. It was in character for Naruto because he's known for his clones and using distractions. Tsunade is a stand up brawler. 

Also, with Kakashi, he was distracted/defending against the hearts and Kakuzu exploited the opening. The difference with Kakashi's Raikiri against Kakuzu was that he was just talking and Kakashi got him. 



FlamingRain said:


> Surely you realize I'm going to have a hard time buying that from anybody who thinks Tsunade was titled a Sannin and is feared as a Sannin because she isn't even worthy of the title of Sannin.


Just look at the Tsunade threads from a couple of years ago, I was probably the only alongside GT who actually backed a few threads supporting her, even made a few signatures each time something happened. There are fights she can win and there are fights she can't win. On a good day, she beats half the Akatsuki and loses to the other half, with Kisame as long as he has Samehada, there will be a 10/10 victory for him each time. Her fighting style really limits her performance, she's a close range fighter but lacks the proper speed to make a difference. 

Gai was a great counter because it didn't matter what range Kisame was at, Gai covered it all to the point where Kisame couldn't react. The only way I see her beating Kisame is when there is no Samehada and Kisame finds himself in CQC battle with her. It's really situation-based because Kisame doesn't engage in taijutsu/kinjutsu without his sword.

In Part 2, I don't think she is worthy of being on the same level as her teammates because Orochimaru who is effectively the strongest sannin is a few tiers above SM Jiraiya who is many tiers above Tsunade. The Sannin moniker was great in the 3rd war when they fought as a team, but as it is now, both her teammates have heavily outperformed her and they have more versatile skill-sets.



FlamingRain said:


> High schoolers know that each of those things I just named off in my previous post would not be possible in real life, so no.
> 
> Real life physiological limitations are simply not necessarily imposed on Ninjutsu. If a Jutsu's mechanics are stated and/or shown to enable effects that would not be seen in real life, then so be it. There are far more bizarre things in the manga than the prospect of Tsunade regrowing her limbs.
> 
> The body is restored to its _uninjured_ state because Sōzō Saisei grants _complete_ regeneration whereas the other medical techniques cannot. They don't regenerate, they only heal, which is why regrowing whole/entire organs (and limbs) is impossible for them.


I'm only using the explanation given in the manga against itself, while severely damaged, I agree she could regrow her limbs because the growth wouldn't mean she's growing something out of thin air. The regrowth was stated to happen through stimulation of tissues and proteins. 


FlamingRain said:


> Except this never happened.


Just like how Tsunade never regrow an arm/foot for herself or someone else.



FlamingRain said:


> Which shows your suggestion is probably false, since the databook says "all", not "most"...
> 
> _Shosen_ can do that, so no. This fails as an explanation for why Tsunade bothered developing it, why she made a distinction between a mere healing/recovery ability and its regeneration, and why it is considered "the ultimate".


It makes perfect sense, if you think about it.

Wound Healing is the primary phase where blood coagulates and antibodies cover and surround the tissue and prevent an infection. This process would normally take approximately 2-3 weeks and then new cells are formed on top and the body is renewed. 

Her technique skips the wound healing process and goes straight to regenerative process. In essence, she speeds up the healing process by entering the last phase of it without having to wait for the lengthy process.


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 3, 2015)

It makes no sense, Ryuzaki. You are making no sense.

Like I said, _Shosen_ can do that.

You are arguing that Sōzō Saisei faces the same limitations as normal medical ninjutsu such as Shosen despite being established as eclipsing those abilities. One can use Shosen to restore a damaged but not missing limb, so the ultimate medical ninjutsu which grants complete regeneration instead of mere healing must surpass that limit.

There is no difference otherwise, and the entire point of even saying _"I can regenerate organs and limbs. It's not a recovery ability, it's regeneration"_ is that such a difference is actually there. The statement wouldn't even be there if there if it only did what other medical techniques did. It'd be meaningless. It's to point out that this technique can restore entire organs and limbs whereas other medical ninjutsu fail.

Your suggestion is nonsensical.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It makes no sense, Ryuzaki. You are making no sense.
> 
> Like I said, _Shosen_ can do that.
> 
> ...



Link removed

She explains the mechanics of her jutsu. Assuming she has her arm lopped off, she won't be able to regrow it because there isn't anything there to stimulate. 

The regular medical techniques go through that whole process from healing to recovery to regeneration, whereas Sozo Saisei just cuts out the first two and jumps to the third. The benefit is the speed of recovery is much faster.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 3, 2015)

Besto Scientisto Orochimaru laughs at Tsunade's scrub regen techs.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 3, 2015)

She also says the very thing you deny.

Again, if a Jutsu's mechanics are stated and/or shown to enable effects that would not be seen in real life, then so be it, because the manga isn't real life.

You are still arguing that Sōzō Saisei is limited to the same level of restoration that Shosen is, which is just dumb because unlike Shosen, "it's not just a simple healing, it's regeneration". That sentence is there in order to clarify the earlier one about regrowing organs and limbs.

Other medical techniques cannot regrow organs and limbs, Sōzō Saisei can; such is the difference between a simple healing and regeneration, as well as the reason it is even brought up in the first place. 

_That_ is the benefit of Sōzō Saisei and why it is the ultimate medical ninjutsu.

That arm will come back like it's a lizard's tail.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> She also says the very thing you deny.
> 
> Again, if a Jutsu's mechanics are stated and/or shown to enable effects that would not be seen in real life, then so be it, because the manga isn't real life.
> 
> ...


The part in bold is where I disagree.

We can leave it at that.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The point I'm trying to get across in an all out blitz, Kakuzu was unable to sense his approach. It's one thing, if he just caught off guard, it's another if he couldn't even sense him approaching. That's the difference half a tier makes.


Except when Kakashi tried blitzing him again, Kakuzu reacted and dodged. Kakuzu was hit a classic sneak attack, not a blitz. 



> Why not? He was able to do so with a shouten clone against Gai. Gai is not only much faster than Tsunade, but he's has better taijutsu and weapons experience than Tsunade does. Kisame could easily make several water clones and put her in a water prison or attack her with ranged ninjutsu like he did against Gai.


Tsunade's taijutsu is considered to be unrivaled in Konoha, she's as good in taijutsu as Guy (they share a 5 in the stat), and more experience than Tsunade who has a good twenty years over him in that area? And again, their fighting styles are different, Tsunade as a medic had to learn how to be a master of evasion. Guy had to learn how to break bones with his fists and feet.


> Plus it's not Tsunade's style to dodge an attack, she'd rather take it head on, which is what she did against Madara.


Tsunade could afford to do that with her Byakugo active. Otherwise, she fights with evasion like she taught Sakura. Kisame's moves are easy to predict.



> Not at all, we can clearly see it wrapping around Tsunade's body, so it's clearly not internal. Did it say it was in the databook? If so, please point it out.


Byakugo acts like a fuinjutsu, it wraps around the body. Yet the chakra remains inside the body. It doesn't give a visible aura of energy like a Version 1 or Version 2 cloak, or hell like an initial Jinchuriki state. Its completely internal which is why it can do high level regen. 


> No, you said that Samehada couldn't eat her chakra just by touching her and that chakra needed to be visible in order for Samehada to eat. That's obviously not the case, as Killer Bee got the chakra sucked out of him and Byakogu is clearly visible as it is seen wrapping around her body.


Samehada had to physically BITE the target to do that, not a simple touch. Asuma was touched by Samehada but experienced no chakra drain, if you remember. Byakugo is an internal technique, no visible aura, nothing. 



> No he doesn't, where did you get that idea? Even Hachibi stated against Bee that there is no way that Killer Bee could beat Kisame in the Water Prison and Killer Bee in any of his forms (Base, V1, V2) has established himself to be faster than Base Jiraiya.


Jiraiya in base was able to react to all of Animal Path's instant summons as well as react to Guy's kicks and punches. He has quite a high reaction grade. The water prison is also weak to doton which Jiraiya can use, AND summoning techniques are instant. Jiraiya truly can just bait Kisame in.


> None of this indicates or supports your initial assertion that Jiraiya has more chakra than Kisame.


...where did I say Jiraiya had more chakra than Kisame? I said they're both chakra monsters. I said they have comparable amounts of chakra. 



> Among the kages that's an awesome feat, but it was also 5 kages vs. 1 Madara, so again not much of an accomplishment, in fact they should have done more than what they showed. The best feat Tsunade had was shattering Susano'o but again, she didn't do it all on her own, she had help with other kage. But Oonoki had the best feats throughout the entire Gokage fight, he was the clear-cut MVP candidate on the kages, followed by Gaara.


It was implied that Tsunade got up close, one on one with Madara when she did this, forcing Madara to switch out with a Mokuton bushin. Tsunade cracked and shattered Susano'o with her first punch and completely destroyed it with a kick. Even though weighed A did attack, he did minimal damage.


> Both Jiraiya and Orochimaru on their own had a better skill-set to defeat Madara and if you couple that with the other kage, then their chances of success would increase. Tsunade did the best she could with what she had, but it obviously wasn't enough, which is why she is so low on the bar and they are so high.


Except she's not. You keep downplaying her performance and ignoring that Tsunade was crucial for the Kages getting as far as they did. Onoki may have been the strongest, but Tsunade was the second most powerful Kage on the field as shown from her feats.



> The difference is Gai is fast enough to where his taijutsu causes problems for Kisame. Tsunade maybe an expert, but lacks the proper speed to be an actual threat, if Kisame was able to hit Gai with his jutsu, he's most definitely going to be able to crush a much slower Tsuande whose fighting style is predicated around CQC.


Didn't Tsunade blitz Orochimaru, who is a full tier higher than her? Oh wait she did. So how is she 'too slow' to avoid Kisame's attacks? Oh and she blitzed Shizune, who has the same level of speed as Kisame! Tsunade has blitzed and reacted to people 'faster' than she was. Hell she was the _only_ Kage to react to this in time.

Tsunade can evade and blitz Kisame all day with her feats.


> After seeing the size of Susano'o, Jiraiya would immediately summon Bunta, Ken and/or Hiro for assistance or buy time with Yomi Numa. Orochimaru would be able to summon several snakes and in fact, is the only one who could completely neutralize Edo Madara via poison. Orochimaru holds an innate advantage over him, Hashirama, Zetsu clones or anyone in particular using Hashirama's body.


And if the Susano'o clones use their Rinnegan techniques, Jiraiya's summons and Yomi Numa'd be fucked. The best way to fight them is taijutsu, which Tsunade was using. And Orochimaru can beat Hashirama now?



> The gap is obviously there if you consider their jutsu arsenal, both Orochimaru and Jiraiya do much better than Tsunade did. In fact, both of those two would defeat their 5 Susano'o opponents and move onto assisting the other kages.


I double they could even beat one. You're seriously underestimating Tsunade Ryuzaki and overestimating Jiraiya and Orochimaru.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

> Tsunade can evade and blitz Kisame all day with her feats.



Beating Orochimaru and Shizune are good feats against someone who could compete with Killer Bee without much of a problem? Realy?

Tsunade cant blitz Kisame, she cant compete with him. 

I am too lazy. Ryuzaki will counter the rest.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except when Kakashi tried blitzing him again, Kakuzu reacted and dodged. Kakuzu was hit a classic sneak attack, not a blitz.


What blitz are you referring to? 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade's taijutsu is considered to be unrivaled in Konoha, she's as good in taijutsu as Guy (they share a 5 in the stat), and more experience than Tsunade who has a good twenty years over him in that area? And again, their fighting styles are different, Tsunade as a medic had to learn how to be a master of evasion. Guy had to learn how to break bones with his fists and feet.


You are ignoring the issue here, because for one she's not as good as Gai in taijutsu, even though both are considered roof tier, Tsunade is just raw strength whereas Gai actually has multiple moves and only practices taijutsu. She had to split her time w/Medical Ninjutsu, no way in hell is she better than Gai in taijutsu, that's beyond absurd.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade *could afford to do that* with her Byakugo active. Otherwise, she fights with evasion like she taught Sakura. Kisame's moves are easy to predict.


The moment she does, Kisame would suck her chakra with Samehada, as the sword would run her dry.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Byakugo acts like a fuinjutsu, it wraps around the body. Yet the chakra remains inside the body. It doesn't give a visible aura of energy like a Version 1 or Version 2 cloak, or hell like an initial Jinchuriki state. Its completely internal which is why it can do high level regen.
> 
> Samehada had to physically BITE the target to do that, not a simple touch. Asuma was touched by Samehada but experienced no chakra drain, if you remember. Byakugo is an internal technique, no visible aura, nothing.


The chakra is clearly wrapping around her body and she states her self it's powered by chakra. 

As for touching, Samehada absorbed the chakra off Killer Bee's blade before the blade even hit him in the back and he wasn't even touching the knife at all, it was at a fair distance. More to the point, Samehada will absorb any chakra it is remotely in the vicinity of, which is why the same thing will happen to Tsunade as she tries to use a technique that has stored (years of chakra in, only be released into her body via the byakogu wrap). 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jiraiya in base was able to react to all of Animal Path's instant summons as well as react to Guy's kicks and punches. He has quite a high reaction grade. The water prison is also weak to doton which Jiraiya can use, AND summoning techniques are instant. Jiraiya truly can just bait Kisame in.


Base Jiraiya isn't faster than Kisame under-water, since Base Killer Bee was proven to be faster than Base Jiraiya/MS Sasuke (Tier 4.5) and Bee couldn't do anything to escape Kisame's attacks underwater. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...where did I say Jiraiya had more chakra than Kisame? I said they're both chakra monsters. I said they have comparable amounts of chakra.


You stated on a number of occasions that Jiraiya = Kisame in chakra, which is obviously not the case.

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Base Jiraiya has a 5 in ninjutsu, 4.5 in taijutsu (higher than Kisame), 4.5 in speed (higher than Kisame) and a 5 in stamina (same as Kisame). *He literally is on an higher level than Kisame*, just as Kisame admitted.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> They both have a 5 in that stat. Jiraiya's stamina and chakra levels were compared to Naruto's by Fukasaku himself. So *no*, kind of wrong and downplaying here.


Kisame's roof tier stamina translates into more than Jiraiya, Nagato and Naruto (w/o Kyuubi). 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It was implied that Tsunade got up close, one on one with Madara when she did this, forcing Madara to switch out with a Mokuton bushin. Tsunade cracked and shattered Susano'o with her first punch and completely destroyed it with a kick. Even though weighed A did attack, he did minimal damage.


That was rib-cage Susano'o and it took her two strikes, with the assistance of the other 4 kages in order to make that crack. As for Backpack Raikage, he used a different technique this time, concentrating on her original point of attack. Tsunade, alone, would have gotten stomped and the clone switch was something Madara was testing to see, if they could tell the difference, which they couldn't and he was not amused, as usual. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except she's not. You keep downplaying her performance and ignoring that Tsunade was crucial for the Kages getting as far as they did. Onoki may have been the strongest, but Tsunade was the second most powerful Kage on the field as shown from her feats.


She's an excellent support member, no one is denying that, she increased the teams overall effectiveness but she isn't the best or second best on the team. Clearly, Gaara and Oonoki were the ones that had better offensive and defensive showings. Gaara managed to bypass Susano'o and pull Madara out effortlessly and he successively showed multiple defensive and offensive techniques, that afforded the kages advantages they didn't have before. For Tsunade's performance, she gets third place but I can't rate her any higher than that because it would be unfair to what Gaara has done. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Didn't Tsunade blitz Orochimaru, who is a full tier higher than her? Oh wait she did. So how is she 'too slow' to avoid Kisame's attacks? Oh and she blitzed Shizune, who has the same level of speed as Kisame! Tsunade has blitzed and reacted to people 'faster' than she was. Hell she was the _only_ Kage to react to this in time.


Orochimaru was armless, exhausted and feverish, it doesn't establish her speed, because her opponent was handicapped.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade can evade and* blitz Kisame* all day with her feats.


Tsunade is too slow (Tier 3.5), she's not a sword master and she is rated to be Wind Arc Naruto-level in terms of speed. She's definitely not blitzing Kisame, especially not on her own. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And if the Susano'o clones use their Rinnegan techniques, Jiraiya's summons and Yomi Numa'd be fucked. The best way to fight them is taijutsu, which Tsunade was using. And Orochimaru can beat Hashirama now?


Did the Susano'o-based clones use their Rin'negan techniques against Tsunade or any of the kages? Based on their showing, they didn't, so I don't expect them to use it against Jiraiya/Orochimaru, who would mop the floor with them.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I double they could even beat one. You're seriously underestimating Tsunade Ryuzaki and overestimating Jiraiya and Orochimaru.


Not at all, Tsunade's skill-set is hand-to-hand combat and using her overbearing strength to her advantage. While the other two have multiple boss summons and ninjutsu that can feasibly work around Susano'o.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 3, 2015)

I love that "She's got a fat ass" is your signature.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> What blitz are you referring to?


When Kakashi tried to attack Kakuzu again Kakuzu shut him down and deflected his attacks.



> You are ignoring the issue here, because for one she's not as good as Gai in taijutsu, even though both are considered roof tier, Tsunade is just raw strength whereas Gai actually has multiple moves and only practices taijutsu. She had to split her time w/Medical Ninjutsu, no way in hell is she better than Gai in taijutsu, that's beyond absurd.


Both of them are taijutsu masters, they just have different fighting styles. And yes, Tsunade should be better than Guy in taijutsu because she not only combines strength, but evasion and the ability to read moves. Do you even remotely remember what Tsunade taught Sakura? She taught Sakura to be highly evasive as well as how to read attacks as fine and complex as a puppeteer's finger movements. She can do those things too, so why wouldn't Tsunade's taijutsu be on the same level as Guy? Just because she doesn't have the Gates?


> The moment she does, Kisame would suck her chakra with Samehada, as the sword would run her dry.


Except Samehada doesn't work like that. Simply touching someone doesn't drain their chakra. Samehada either has to slash a physical, visible chakra, or land a bite. if it can't do either, it can't absorb.


> The chakra is clearly wrapping around her body and she states her self it's powered by chakra.


Its powered by chakra, but its still internal. She's basically covered in a fuinjutsu, which has chakra INSIDE it. 


> As for touching, Samehada absorbed the chakra off Killer Bee's blade before the blade even hit him in the back and he wasn't even touching the knife at all, it was at a fair distance. More to the point, Samehada will absorb any chakra it is remotely in the vicinity of, which is why the same thing will happen to Tsunade as she tries to use a technique that has stored (years of chakra in, only be released into her body via the byakogu wrap).


The chakra was still visible there. Samehada can only absorb visible chakra unless it bites the target, leaving itself open for a counter. Tsunade wraps herself in basically a sealing jutsu which helps her regenerate. Its not a physical chakra cloak, you keep making them out to be the same when they aren't.



> Base Jiraiya isn't faster than Kisame under-water, since Base Killer Bee was proven to be faster than Base Jiraiya/MS Sasuke (Tier 4.5) and Bee couldn't do anything to escape Kisame's attacks underwater.


Killer Bee was also focused in saving Sabu and Ponta, which gave him lower reactions. Base Jiraiya can summon, which Bee can't. Base Jiraiya can put up a sensing barrier to predict Kisame's attacks.


> You stated on a number of occasions that Jiraiya = Kisame in chakra, which is obviously not the case.​Kisame's roof tier stamina translates into more than Jiraiya, Nagato and Naruto (w/o Kyuubi).


Jiraiya and Kisame have comparable amounts of chakra. Both are chakra monsters. And you missed why I said Jiraiya is on a higher level than Kisame:

1. His ninjutsu is better
2. His taijutsu is better
3. His genjutsu is better
4. His intelligence is beter
5. His speed is better

Kisame himself said Jiraiya and the Sannin were just on a higher level than he was, and the stats prove it. The only thing Kisame is superior to Jiraiya in is pure physical strength.



> That was rib-cage Susano'o and it took her two strikes, with the assistance of the other 4 kages in order to make that crack. As for Backpack Raikage, he used a different technique this time, concentrating on her original point of attack. Tsunade, alone, would have gotten stomped and the clone switch was something Madara was testing to see, if they could tell the difference, which they couldn't and he was not amused, as usual.


Tsunade alone cracked and shattered Madara's Susano'o. With a single kick she shattered it. How did Gaara help there? How did Mei (other than just blocking Madara's Katon)? Backpack A caused inferior damage compared to Tsunade.



> She's an excellent support member, no one is denying that, she increased the teams overall effectiveness but she isn't the best or second best on the team. Clearly, Gaara and Oonoki were the ones that had better offensive and defensive showings. Gaara managed to bypass Susano'o and pull Madara out effortlessly and he successively showed multiple defensive and offensive techniques, that afforded the kages advantages they didn't have before. For Tsunade's performance, she gets third place but I can't rate her any higher than that because it would be unfair to what Gaara has done.


Tsunade defeated one of Madara's Mokuton Bushin Susano'o clones while Gaara was fodderized. Tsunade shattered Susano'o twice over. Tsunade recharged Onoki so he could use Jinton again. 


> Orochimaru was armless, exhausted and feverish, it doesn't establish her speed, because her opponent was handicapped.


And Tsunade was handicapped _too_. Funny how you ignore she was:


Suffering damage to her chest muscles
Barely recovered from her fear of blood
Hadn't fought in a decade
Had tendon damage from Kabuto's chakra scalpel

You ignore that fact. When both equally handicapped, Tsunade defeated Orochimaru.


> Tsunade is too slow (Tier 3.5), she's not a sword master and she is rated to be Wind Arc Naruto-level in terms of speed. She's definitely not blitzing Kisame, especially not on her own.


Tsunade blitzed Shizune, tier 4, with ease. She blitzed Orochimaru, tier 4.5, with ease despite suffering injuries. She doesn't need to be a kenjutsu master, she's a sword master. You really have a low opinion of Tsunade.


> Did the Susano'o-based clones use their Rin'negan techniques against Tsunade or any of the kages? Based on their showing, they didn't, so I don't expect them to use it against Jiraiya/Orochimaru, who would mop the floor with them.


Madara said the Susano'o Wood Clones were switching from Rinnegan to Sharingan the whole fight, but they did it too slow to protect them from the giant Jinton that Onoki used. 



> Not at all, Tsunade's skill-set is hand-to-hand combat and using her overbearing strength to her advantage. While the other two have multiple boss summons and ninjutsu that can feasibly work around Susano'o.


Tsunade also uses boss summons. Tsunade can tank an attack that destroyed an entire village (why do you ignore that one?).


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> When Kakashi tried to attack Kakuzu again Kakuzu shut him down and deflected his attacks.


You'll have to post a scan because I don't know what you are talking about.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Both of them are taijutsu masters, they just have different fighting styles. A*nd yes, Tsunade should be better than Guy in taijutsu because she not only combines strength, but evasion and the ability to read moves.* Do you even remotely remember what Tsunade taught Sakura? She taught Sakura to be highly evasive as well as how to read attacks as fine and complex as a puppeteer's finger movements. She can do those things too, so why wouldn't Tsunade's taijutsu be on the same level as Guy? Just because she doesn't have the Gates?


The part in bold is fan-fiction because Gai is a better taijutsu master than Tsunade. Tsunade has never even remotely come close to Gai's level whatsoever. Gai went up against Juubidara while her and her kage posse was still getting wrecked by Edo Madara.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except Samehada doesn't work like that. Simply touching someone doesn't drain their chakra. Samehada either has to slash a physical, visible chakra, or land a bite. if it can't do either, it can't absorb. Its powered by chakra, but its still internal. She's basically covered in a fuinjutsu, which has chakra INSIDE it.
> 
> The chakra was still visible there. Samehada can only absorb visible chakra unless it bites the target, leaving itself open for a counter. Tsunade wraps herself in basically a sealing jutsu which helps her regenerate. Its not a physical chakra cloak, you keep making them out to be the same when they aren't.


Samehada does work like that, if it was able to steal chakra mid-air at that speed, the chakra flowing under the Byakogou is fair game. Even if it isn't, she doesn't posses the speed or skill to predict his attack or slashes, since Killer Bee as a swordsmen had difficulty with that as well. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Killer Bee was also focused in saving Sabu and Ponta, which gave him lower reactions. Base Jiraiya can summon, which Bee can't. Base Jiraiya can put up a sensing barrier to predict Kisame's attacks.


His speed is still the same as it is in base, he's not going to be able to react to it. Kisame swiped at Killer Bee almost 5-6 times in that same panel and he couldn't even flinch Base Jiraiya gets curbed by Kisamehada.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jiraiya and Kisame have comparable amounts of chakra. Both are chakra monsters. And you missed why I said Jiraiya is on a higher level than Kisame:
> 
> 1. His ninjutsu is better
> 2. His taijutsu is better
> ...


You're avoiding the issue we're discussing, we're not talking about his ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu and etc., we're discussing his stamina and stacked up to Kisame's stamina. Whereby you asserted they were the same, when in fact they obviously aren't.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade alone cracked and shattered Madara's Susano'o. With a single kick she shattered it. How did Gaara help there? How did Mei (other than just blocking Madara's Katon)? Backpack A caused inferior damage compared to Tsunade.


Tsunade had help from the other kages, look at the page:

1. She puts a crack on Susano'o.
2. Madara retaliate's with fire which Mei defends her w/a suiton.
3. Mei uses the suiton then to attack Madara in his rib cage mode.
4. Backpack Raikage puts more cracks into the rib-cage Susano'o.
5. Tsunade makes another hit here.

That's what I call a team-effort, she didn't go off on her own and manage that by herself. If she attempted to, it would have ended with her getting hit by Madara's fire-style.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade defeated one of Madara's Mokuton Bushin Susano'o clones while Gaara was fodderized. Tsunade shattered Susano'o twice over. Tsunade recharged Onoki so he could use Jinton again.


Gaara had a better showing when you put them head to head with what Gaara did. He was a better offensive and defensive player, whereas Tsunade was just purely offense.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Tsunade *was handicapped* _too_. Funny how you ignore she was:
> 
> 
> Suffering damage to her chest muscles
> ...


No they weren't, when she activated Sozo Saisei, she was completely healed, her wounds healed in front of them and she was restored back to full strength. Whereas Orochimaru was still feverish, exhausted and armless.  



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara said the Susano'o Wood Clones were switching from Rinnegan to Sharingan the whole fight, but they did it too slow to protect them from the giant Jinton that Onoki used.


Scan of where this happened.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade also uses boss summons. Tsunade can tank an attack that destroyed an entire village (why do you ignore that one?).


Then *explain why she didn't use it against the 5 Susano'o*. It's obvious that Katsuyu isn't an offensive type of summon, otherwise, she would have summoned it.


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## Sans (Aug 3, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Besto Scientisto Orochimaru laughs at Tsunade's scrub regen techs.



I laugh at your left aligned signature.

Buddy.... come on....


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## Sans (Aug 3, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I love that "She's got a fat ass" is your signature.



You can say the words, but you don't know what they mean.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I love that "She's got a fat ass" is your signature.



If you want the link for it, I can give it to you, currently I have my signature on rotation. Also, if you don't mind it, the show isn't so bad either.


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## Jad (Aug 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 you can't possibly believe Tsunade is better than Gai in Taijutsu? She has one named attack in Taijutsu. That and Kishimoto literally compared Gai and Rock Lee to the likes of Jackie Chan (and from what I've read before Bruce Lee). Gai's databook is litettered with the word Taijutsu Master and "Highly proficient in Weapons" (three or two times). Same with Rock Lee, his considered a Taijutsu Master, and Gai made him that way. Her Taijutsu hasn't even been slightly elaborated on in Databook or in Manga. The "she was unrivaled in Konoha for Taijutsu", you can't link me to a source that says that. I asked LikedBoss to show me, and he couldn't. Gai is stated in the Databook to be the best Taijutsu user in Konoha, and that includes the likes of Hiashi who holds a 5 in Taijutsu.

And finally, Madara called Gai the strongest Taijutsu user ever. You may say "Only in the 8th Gate", but for your information, Gai is not a different character in the 8th Gate. Gai invented every move, including Night Guy and Evening Elephant. He didn't somehow make them up on the spot. If someone can create these ultimate Taijutsu moves, than how does Tsunade compare exactly? Because she taught Sakura to evade first?​


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

He's just trolling at this point, which is why I just bolded the point and told him that Gai is better at taijutsu period. I never thought this shit would remind of the good old days when all I had to worry about was Joker J's Flying Kisame or Dark Rasengan's Animal Path soloing Itachi.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 3, 2015)

Flying Kisame?


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Flying Kisame?



I'm not 100% positive, but I believe you must have joined after, this happened around the time when Gai fought Kisame for the last time. There was a small debate that Kisame could fly and attack in his Samehada form because of how he escaped Killer Bee/Naruto at the springs.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 4, 2015)

They said he could be anything.

So he became a flying man-shark-sword.


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## Empathy (Aug 4, 2015)

He's crawling on a wall, I reckon.


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