# What makes a ninja high Kage level?



## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2015)

For me these are the criteria 
1) quality difficult to avoid Jutsu
2) quality regen or defensive techniques 

For example I would consider the likes of Kisame a high Kage level but not gaara 
Or i would say Minato is high level but not tsunade 

While tsunade has 2 very high level skills . Byakuyo and her healing (they are different Jutsu) 
She however likes things like speed to land decisive hits 

While gaara has high Kage defensive techniques one must still note another high Kage level offense has shown to break through his sand wall . Yasaka

Gaara also doesn't have what I would call difficult Jutsu to avoid . It's quantity used to overwhelm 

The difference with Kisame however is unlike gaara who solely uses quantity Kisame created Jutsu such as daikodan and shark dance Jutsu . 

So the actual battle . Defensively who is better gaara or kisame 
Offensively who is better gaara or Kisame 
Make an argument for each 

I say Kisame wins both . He can regen while gaara has sand armor and sand to defend himself 
Offensively daikodan is dual purpose it defends and gets stronger 
Also shark dance Jutsu >> anything gaara has


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## Sadgoob (Jan 19, 2015)

I think it's more along the lines of being in the top third of Kage levels in terms of overall power, spanning from p1 Tsunade or old Hiruzen (low) to living Minato or Tobirama (high).​


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## Alex Payne (Jan 19, 2015)

If he can beat a team of two other lower-tier Kage levels.


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## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2015)

There has to be more to it than that though
What if the Kage are just very well suited to beat the person ?
For example would we say Hidan is low Kage  because 3 of the 5 Kage can beat him ? 
3 of them with negative difficulty at that


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

The only correct answer I can think of is his/her fans.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> There has to be more to it than that though
> What if the Kage are just very well suited to beat the person ?
> For example would we say Hidan is low Kage  because 3 of the 5 Kage can beat him ?
> 3 of them with negative difficulty at that


There are obviously exceptions but in general I believe that high-end Kages are the ones capable of beating 2+ lower end ones.  And by high-end Kage-lvl I mean people like Tobirama and Itachi. Not Hashirama/Madara who are in a tier above Kage group in my mind.


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## Bonly (Jan 19, 2015)

I more so don't have just a thing or two which I'd place a character in a Kage tier. I look at their offense abilities, defense abilities, support abilities, teamwork potential, overall feats, and portrayal when I rank them. I just take a character I feel is at said level(low,mid, and high) and just build off of that, so a high kage level for me are characters who are below the top tiers but decently overall stronger then the likes of Kakuzu, Mei, and Konan for example, so people like Jiraiya and Itachi and Tobi for example. This also means that just because character A can beat character B in a fight, I would view character B as stronger overall wise


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## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2015)

Thanks bonly and Alex 
For example Hidan can beat tsunade maybe and Mei for sure 
However gaara would beat him with the same ease he would konohamaru 
So how can such a person be high Kage level or even mid ?

I think direct battle comparisons only are a very bad way to consider a person level 

I agree more with bonly method 

So bonly where would you put Kisame? Mid or high . I say high 

Also tell me where u would gaara and gengetsu


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## FlamingRain (Jan 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> For example Hidan can beat tsunade and Mei for sure



...He can?


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> ...He can?



That what I thought off. 
I wonder how would Hidan fight when his tools get melt down for example.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 19, 2015)

Hidan suffers from both power inflation and Kishi being forced to rush that arc - scrapping a lot of planned abilities. He was supposed to be other Akatsukis' peer - possibly on the lower end but still a peer. But he failed to deliver and looks laughable in comparison. So using him when trying to play with rankings is a bad idea imo. He is dangerous without knowledge and if we play with his feats a bit could take on handful of Kages in favorable conditions. But he is still outmatched overall by everyone in that Tier.


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## Kai (Jan 19, 2015)

Kage that possess high level techniques with the fewest counters or possibility to counter in comparison to other Kage.

The Sannin, Onoki, A, Muu, Gengetsu, A (3rd) exemplify these characteristics imo.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 19, 2015)

I wish Kishi had told that interviewer what Hidan's planned abilities were, at least. But all we learned was that he was supposed to have more than what was shown.

Based purely on what was shown, Hidan is the very weakest S-rank or Kage level (maybe p1 Tsunade is weaker, not sure.) However, he was hyped and planned to be better than that.

e.g. Asuma was sweating bullet and yelling at Shikamaru that Hidan and Kakuzu were both individually _way_ out of his league. But with different circumstances, Asuma could beat feat-Hidan.​


Kai said:


> The Sannin, Onoki, A, Muu, Gengetsu, A (3rd) exemplify these characteristics imo.



I feel like the 4th Raikage and Tsunade wouldn't qualify by those standards. They're pretty one-dimensional fighters and, in my opinion, kind of dumb in how they approach battles.​


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## Alex Payne (Jan 19, 2015)

There is a set of Naruto Novels planned. Each centered on specific characters. Two of them might give us what we want - Shikamaru and Akatsuki. Author is not Kishi though and we might get some crazy shit like previous Bleach Novel.


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## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> ...He can?



Yup he can 
Mei Jutsu have zero feats to suggest they would be difficult to avoid 
If he closes in she dies laughably 

Hidan is underestimated here 

The hardest part is him getting blood which he was still able to do while avoidinf if shikamaru and asuma who is a cqc specialist 

once he gets her blood she dies . She can't stop him from  forming the seal

Against tsunade getting her blood would be easy . 
He stabs himself and she keeps dying


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## Bonly (Jan 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Thanks bonly and Alex
> For example Hidan can beat tsunade maybe and Mei for sure



I wouldn't go that far. Hidan may be underestimated by people but he's not likely to beat Tsunade or Mei.




> I agree more with bonly method







> So bonly where would you put Kisame? Mid or high . I say high
> 
> Also tell me where u would gaara and gengetsu



I'd put Kisame as high kage level, Gaara near the top of mid Kage level and I don't know who gengetsu is.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 19, 2015)

Gengetsu is the 2nd Mizukage's first name.

Icegaze, I think you're underestimating Mei. She has a second version of Zabuza's hidden mist jutsu, except her mist jutsu can melt Susano'o, which means it'd melt metal and flesh easily. 

We just only ever saw her in team-battles though, where she couldn't exercise these abilities to their maximum potential because she didn't want to hut or kill her teammates. 

And while I think p1 Tsunade would lose to Hidan due to her being so slow, she improved her speed enough throughout part two to the point where she could IMO take Hidan to pound-town no problem.​


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## Bonly (Jan 19, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Gengetsu is the 2nd Mizukage's first name.​



Oh The French Dude, I didn't know he got his named revealed, thank you my good sir 



Icegaze said:


> Yup he can
> Mei Jutsu have zero feats to suggest they would be difficult to avoid
> If he closes in she dies laughably
> 
> ...



Mei was able to make a Suiton big enough to stop Madara's Katon then she used a massive Suiton that sent Madara flying enough more so. Mei should be fast enough to react to Hidan and form a Suiton to keep him at bay and Mei's Suiton can also mess up Hidan's circle which is made out of blood, no circle means no jutsu for Hidan. Now add in her Futton which started to quickly melt Susanoo and Sasuke and Hidan is a goner.



> Against tsunade getting her blood would be easy .
> He stabs himself and she keeps dying



Tsunade's Byakugo allows her to take a fatal hit and keep on moving as well as a simple(well simple for her) kick  is gonna mess up Hidan's circle and her kick is gonna do more damage then the post in the scan.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

To me, the characters' level is determined, or can be based on 
1- Looking at their rivals, or the character they have fought and/or defeated. 
2- Looking at their hype, and to see the time that hype is meant for, and much better if it is supported.
3- Looking at the characters importance for the story overall. 
4- How is that character is being portrayed, and especially how close is it to the main character(s). 
5- I guess the conditions of a fight is also may be taken as a factor to determine said character's level.
6- On-Panel times (while fighting?)

Well, with that being said as I said previously how popular a character is will effect the way it shows up among the fan as well. And I might ass that "parallels" that a lot of people here, especially here actually, try to use to base on their point of view is a weak based in my opinion. As you might have already know, Kishi sometimes use those parallels to fool/mislead people as he did with Sakura and the parallels he made between her and Kushina. So, I don't think it is correct to take them as good proofs most of them time. The best they can be is a minor, and supportive proofs to the main one. 

Now, based on that a character for example like Mei would be on a low Kage level to me because. We have never seen her in a "rival" battle where we can at least look to her opponent's power as well.  And when it comes to hype, she was not really given any hype, and their importance in the story is extremely slum. In fact she was not even given any back story among all the 5 kages at the time. And her portrayed was not even good and she was the only one who was scared and wanted to stop against Madara even though she is a kage and is supposed to be ready to die. 

So, she was given a low end of everything, and as such, I view her as in a low-kage section. 


Now, if we look at Gaara. We have seen him against the Edo Kage, Sasuke, Deidara, Madara...etc.
And although he was defeated in some of those fights, but he was able to provide a defence against a lot of the strong moves they show, and some of the conditions of the fight was against him like when Deidara attacked the village. Also, he is important in the story for some extant, was given a back story, and he is relatively close to the MC. That is why I view him more to the mid-characters. 

a high level Kage would be someone like the 3rd Raikage (I was going to chose Minato, but I guess that wouldn't have been good for obvious reasons ). We know that the 3rd was said to be the strongest Raikage, which means he already have a good hype. We know that he was the only one who can take on a Bijuu head on, and that he tied with the Hacibi. In addition to him fighting 10000 Shinobi at the same time, something a lot of the characters won't probably last as him. And he was respected among even the criminals, for example although Kin/Gin when they talk about Tobirama say "Pathetic/  dead ass Hokage...etc", but when they saw the Tattoo on Darui's arm they believed that he might give them a good fight because of the fact that he is the 3rd student. 

Well, something along those lines I suppose. I thought it was better to not chose popular characters because that will either cause me to get flamed, or will ruin the point I am trying to make.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 19, 2015)

Wasn't 3rd Raikage said to be "Strongest _Past_ Raikage". As strongest out of first 3?


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

Well, honestly it is only stated in the regular chapters, but not really in the volume as those side statements
are from the WSJ. 

but yeah, you're right, I just checked it in manga panda. 
simple(well simple for her) kick


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## Deer Lord (Jan 19, 2015)

I guess I'd define it as being decisively above the sanin/gokage members to the point said character can beat them mid-high diff most of the times but not stomp them with zero diff (cause that would just make them top tiers)

good examples would be Pain, minato, tobirama or Killer B.


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## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Oh The French Dude, I didn't know he got his named revealed, thank you my good sir
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok am liking this 
Mei would not know unless wit knowledge that she needs to wash off the mark with suiton 
I doubt her suiton will push Hidan or do anything to him he got shot in the back with Atsugi and wasn't even sent flying it had zero effect on him 

Acid just is Mei only shot at killing Hidan and I mean only shot 
Her lava is terribly slow 

Now Hidan with his scythe got good range and all he needs is a scratch again without knowledge she wouldn't be so careful as to avoid a scratch and dies 

As for tsunade the constant pain of her hearth being pierced will wear her down 
Take the susanoo swords for example she felt it stalled abit then kept moving 

Hidan also heals incase people didn't know if not where are all his stab wounds 
The difference is he enjoys the pain 
Tsunade will send him flying surely but that works for Hidan if she hits him in the circle she would send herself flying as well thus creating more distance for Hidan to repeatedly stab himself till she collapses

Hidan would most certainly draw blood against someone who thinks she can't die 
She is a brawlish fighter she is going to get hit


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## tupadre97 (Jan 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Thanks bonly and Alex
> *For example Hidan can beat tsunade maybe and Mei for sure *
> However gaara would beat him with the same ease he would konohamaru
> So how can such a person be high Kage level or even mid ?
> ...



Lol no Hidan is pure trash. He only killed Asuma due to PIS.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Mei Jutsu have zero feats to suggest they would be difficult to avoid



Except for being able to surround Mei herself, you mean.



> She can't stop him from  forming the seal



Any single one of Mei's techniques would prevent Hidan from forming the seal. 

Trying to form it requires him to be stationary, so he'll either stop short and try not to get melted, or keep drawing like and idiot and get a big glob of lava dropped on him so that he ends there.



> Against tsunade getting her blood would be easy.



How?

It's reasonably IC for Tsunade to try confiscating the scythe, and I'm not seeing why she'd have a problem doing that given just how much more physical strength she has than Hidan does (as well as Hidan's tendency to just fling the weapon when the cord is still intact).

Furthermore, trying to actually draw the seal out will be just as difficult as trying to draw blood without losing the scythe. You don't need specific intel to realize that something is up when your opponent suddenly stops to draw on the ground while they begin to change colors, and all it takes is Tsunade tapping her foot to the ground to demolish the entire set up in an instant.



> He stabs himself and she keeps dying



This achieves nothing; but again he's not going to get that far to begin with.


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## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Except for being able to surround Mei herself, you mean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol the bias is real 
How did you figure that it's reasonably IC for tsunade to try confiscate the scythe ???
Has she ever done that ???
Tsunade is a brute who knows she can tank 
By definition she is the easy person for Hidan to get blood from. Why is she avoiding a Hidan measly attacks when she couldn't even care to avoid susanoo attacks ?? Even Ei said she is fighting wrecklessly . That's how she fights because she can heal 

Hidan can form the seals pretty quickly and can form it at the start she has no reason to attack a seal she doesn't know about . He gets blood jumps back to it 
If she attacks him while he is in it . She dies and Hidan does so it's a draw


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## Legendary Itachi (Jan 19, 2015)

Tsunade breaks the floor along with his seal, GG.

You don't need some genius to figure out why your enemy is making a seal on the floor.  And Ranshinsho can fuck up Hidan's brain all day assume he succeeded.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

That is why it's bad to chose a character that has fans as an example. 
it becomes Hidan Vs Tsunade/Mei.


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## Veracity (Jan 19, 2015)

Tsuande would demolish Hidan almost no difficulty .

If Shikamaru had the CQC ability to dodge hidans maneuver while placing a drop of blood on the end of his weapon all without him noticing and all with precise timing, then a Sannin/Hokage who is faster , more reflexive, and better at CQC then Shikamaru would trash Hidan. Let's add on the fact that Tsuande has the feats to potentially CCC blitz Hidan, and even if she didn't (assuming they are equal in speed) a simple Kunai parry to hidans weapon would rip his arm out of socket . Assuming that she's slower then him, she had the tanking ability to take a hit to land a hit , which in turn would split Hidan into particles. She doesn't have to necessarily hit Hidan when she's capable of creating shockwaves the size of FRS's expansion by simply touching the ground, or the fact that se can potentially toss rocks the size of Kyuubi, OR the fact that she has a ridiculously powerful Summoning that can split into 100 Hidan sized slugs and melt Hidan at pointblank.

Tsuande vs Hidan is so freaking unbalanced at this point. I'd wager Tsuande could take on 3 of him at the same time without to much problems.


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## Sword of the Morning (Jan 19, 2015)

You'll never know by comparing who they win and lose against. All Kage have different attributes that make them high level in some areas but low in others. 

Take Minato (not counting Kyuubi) for example. Hes has one of the lowest and weakest (if not the lowest) damage outputs of all the Kage that were introduced in the series but he can beat most Kage because his versatility. 

Then we have Third Raikage who is barely versatile at all but he has too much overwhelming brute power for most Kage to even compete with (like come on, the guy tanks TBB) so he's stronger than most.

It all depends what categories were judging them in.


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## Bonly (Jan 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Ok am liking this
> Mei would not know unless wit knowledge that she needs to wash off the mark with suiton



Thing is she doesn't have to aim for it on purpose. If Hidan tries to make a circle she's gonna attack him and with how big her Sutions are she'll end up hitting the circle.



> I doubt her suiton will push Hidan or do anything to him he got shot in the back with Atsugi and wasn't even sent flying it had zero effect on him



First off what happened to Hidan was off panel, here we see Kakuzu standing by himself with the hearts  then after Kakashi pops up we see Hidan pop up(four pages after the Futon was used) so you can't claim that he wasn't sent flying back since you have no clue what happened off panel. 

Secondly here we see Madara inside his ribcage Susanoo is only a few feet above the ground yet after Mei used her water dragon he is high in the air. If just one of her Suitons can do that to Madara then Mei being able to use two Suitons back to back will send Hidan flying back away from her. 



> Acid just is Mei only shot at killing Hidan and I mean only shot
> Her lava is terribly slow



If her Lava lands on him then he's gonna burn and melt or whatever lava does, no ifs,ands, or buts about it.



> Now Hidan with his scythe got good range and all he needs is a scratch again without knowledge she wouldn't be so careful as to avoid a scratch and dies



The dude has a damn scythe. Of fucking course she's gonna be careful to avoid being hit by it whether she has knowledge on his abilities or not and she has a wide enough AoE with her Suiton to not only stop Hidan's attacks but send him flying back as well. 



> As for tsunade the constant pain of her hearth being pierced will wear her down
> Take the susanoo swords for example she felt it stalled abit then kept moving



That was Tsunade who was fighting for hours, as we also saw a fresher Tsunade got stabbed by Madara yet she managed to break the sword, swing the sword at Madara as well as get sent flying by Madara's attack then be pretty much fine to keep the fight on going. If all you can use is a weakened Tsunade to suggest she's gonna slow down then you'd better just stop now because we've seen a fresh Tsunade do better.



> Hidan also heals incase people didn't know if not where are all his stab wounds



Everybody heals to some degree. If you get a paper cut do you keep said cut your entire life? No that shit heals, same thing with Hidan, he just heals days or weeks later(depending on the damage I'd assume) which is why his ear was still cut six days after Asuma cut it. Either way his healing isn't gonna be a factor here. 



> The difference is he enjoys the pain
> Tsunade will send him flying surely but that works for Hidan if she hits him in the circle she would send herself flying as well thus creating more distance for Hidan to repeatedly stab himself till she collapses



If she sends him flying then he'll need to make another circle and Tsunade and keep the process of destroying the ground going on for as long as she wants.



> Hidan would most certainly draw blood against someone who thinks she can't die
> She is a brawlish fighter she is going to get hit



He can draw all the blood he wants but it means jack shit when the circle he needs to make can constantly be destroyed and she can heal through pretty much everything he can dish out, dear lord lets not even mention Katsuyu and how she takes a shit on Hidan either .


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## LostSelf (Jan 19, 2015)

Actually, i think that just looking at the person and it's skills can be used as a base to gauge the level every Shinobi is.

Like Alex Payne said, if the person is capable of defeating two or more low-mid kage levels are considered high kage.

But some of them are very obvious.

Low Kage for me would be old Hiruzen, Part 1 Tsunade.
Mid Kage would be Deidara, Kisame, and every Akatsuki save Hidan.
High Kage would be Itachi, Minato, Tobirama and Nagato. Especially Nagato, who i consider to be the line to the likes of Hashirama, Madara. Or in other words, the stronger High Kage.

And even then, the difference between the strongest High Kage to the level of Hashi/Mads is quite big.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

Sword of the Morning said:


> You'll never know by comparing who they win and lose against. All Kage have different attributes that make them high level in some areas but low in others.
> 
> Take Minato (not counting Kyuubi) for example. Hes has one of the lowest and weakest (if not the lowest) damage outputs of all the Kage that were introduced in the series but he can beat most Kage because his versatility.
> 
> ...



The 3rd Did not tank the TBB though. 
and I believe this problem for most Kages has to do with their panel time while fighting honestly. 

For example. We know the 3rd Raikage has 3 elements, we know he has black lightning, and he used the Sage's tool to seal the Hachibi once. 

Minato has 3 elements, and Yin/Yang. We know he has sealing jutsus which were considered to be savage and everyone was afraid of them...etc

But, they either have no time at all to show their abilities. I.E the first generation of the kage, except for Hashirama. Or, they have an extremely limited time I.E the Edo Kages who had 1 or 2 chapters only to show their power. Or, they are given some time, but with poor conditions, I.E Hiruzen being really old, and Minato getting his hand cut-off right away.


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## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Thing is she doesn't have to aim for it on purpose. If Hidan tries to make a circle she's gonna attack him and with how big her Sutions are she'll end up hitting the circle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1)Sorry how do u know tsunade was fighting madara clones for hours ??? Any reason to believe this
2) you are right she may send Hidan flying 
3) Hidan hit asuma mid range one can easily argue asuma has better feats than Mei when it comes to evasive abilities . He is also a cqc expert 
4) yes if lava lands the seal is undone however why would Hidan move away or jump away from the seal ? The lava drops on him and then they both die . That's. Draw 
5) tsunade isn't going to waste time avoiding an attack than can't kill her . She only cares about evasion when he auto heal tech isn't on . Avoiding his sycthe also means she will take even if it's a second longer to get to him . She has no need to do that 
6) punching Hidan will simply send him flying . Yes she punched and blew a hole in madara. That was nonetheless a clone . Clones cannot be remotely compared to their original in anything at all
7) so you would heal a stake to the heart by the end of a fight ? Because after his fight with nibi the hole which should have been in his chest wasn't there anymore 
Same for when his sycthe ran trough him which killed asuma 
8) Mei cqc or evasion skills have not been shown to be better than asuma .


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> 1)Sorry how do u know tsunade was fighting madara clones for hours ??? Any reason to believe this
> 
> 6) punching Hidan will simply send him flying . Yes she punched and blew a hole in madara. That was nonetheless a clone . Clones cannot be remotely compared to their original in anything at all



1- When Madara first appeared, it was noon.
Asuma cut it
and when the whole ET undoing happened it was 9.00 P.M.
Asuma cut it

2- The clones have everything the real one has. The only different is their chakra will get divided.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 19, 2015)

Fan based headcanonz?

We can assume that the weakest a kage can be would be someone like the 4th Kazekage. Or someone whom we see losing against most kages more often than not.

I do not think that Itachi for example is high kage. Same with Tobirama. I think they can defeat most people like Ei or Mei level in a fight but two of those might be too much even if they would put up a good fight.

High kage to me would be base Minato or SM Kabuto each of whom seemingly could compete with two kage level shinobi at the same time.

Higher than that would be someone like Madara, BSM Naruto or Hashi each of whom can defeat 5 kage level shinobi at once.

Then above that God tiers with Six Path chakra that exceed hokage level.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol the bias is real



Yes, it's slathered all throughout your posts. I didn't need you to point it out to me, I noticed.



> How did you figure that it's reasonably IC for tsunade to try confiscate the scythe ???



Because she bothered to unnecessarily confiscate Naruto's kunai when she could have just as easily flicked him in the stomach and just let him fly.

Yes, that was Naruto, but that, if anything, just goes to show how little incentive she needs to do it. Surely she wants less to do with that big ol' three-pronged scythe than Naruto's measly kunai.



> Tsunade is a brute who knows she can tank



I don't understand why people act like this means she just goes into fights _trying_ to get hit and maximize the amount of damage she takes or something, not even Orochimaru does that.

She became a martial artist first, then a medical specialist (and still one that prioritized evasiveness, mind you), and _then_ she became a regenerator.

So, how do you figure that it's IC for Tsunade to _start out_ the fight trying to tank damage instead of avoiding it? When has she ever done _that_? It seems to me that she's always made an effort to avoid being hit _unnecessarily_, and it also seems to be pretty commonsensical that, when feasible, initially taking away the scythe would be preferable to leaving it in the opponent's hands.

And just to clarify, Ay said she was _*getting*_ sloppy; that would imply that when she started out fighting the clones she was being noticeably more cautious, despite the fact that she'd been able to regenerate since they got there.



> Hidan can form the seals pretty quickly and can form it at the start she has no reason to attack a seal she doesn't know about.



She _does_ know that it was drawn by the person she's fighting. I mean, who even does that in the middle of a fight? You don't think that should make her suspicious enough right there?

She also knows that she can get rid of it by simply tapping her heel.

What she has no reason to do is leave it there.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 19, 2015)

I lol at the thought of Hidan being able to defeat Mei. Mei would destroy him. She's so underrated, arguably the strongest female in the series.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Fan based headcanonz?
> 
> We can assume that the weakest a kage can be would be someone like the 4th Kazekage. Or someone whom we see losing against most kages more often than not.
> 
> ...



Although I agree with some of what you said, but again, Rasa had only 1 chapter of fighting, and it was against his own son. The other chapter was flashback. Kishi barely gave him the chance to fight, and he is not all that bad really. 

I wanted to use Tobirama as an example that he can't take on 2 Kage level at the same time. As proven from his fight with Kin/Gin, actually even with help of another kage like A(the 2nd). But I thought the whole drama of "we do not know what happened blah blah blah" would return. And itachi
is a dangerous character to say something about him around here as well. 



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> I lol at the thought of Hidan being able to defeat Mei. Mei would destroy him. She's so underrated, arguably the strongest female in the series.



Kaguya is probably loling as well at what you said.


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## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes, it's slathered all throughout your posts. I didn't need you to point it out to me, I noticed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hidan made his seal at the start of the fight against asuma team. Shikamaru who is horrendously smarter than tsunade didnt think oh god we must destroy a seal we know nothing about and so far has done nothing . But yes tsunade will immediately watch out for it 

ok I admit tsunade would try grab the sycthe probably draws Hidan in for a punch . Hidan pulls out a spike and stabs her as he is sent flying miles away . He gets up forms a seal then stabs himself 

yes Ei said she was getting sloppy . She however hasn't shown to be more agile than Hidan . He is the faster of the 2 with better range . 

Hidan is massively weak against the likes of gaara but I find it odd when people forget kakuzu himself admitted he cannot kill Hidan . Why does anyone dismiss that statement yet as usual harp on about every other statement made in the manga ?

for kakuzu to know he cannot kill Hidan doesn't that mean he tried ? Their fighting style depends on it. It means he can tank domu attacks , Gian , zukoku and Atsugi 

That should at least count for something . Yes lava would fuck him over . It's however quite slow and has a fairly small range . A casual jump should save anyone from it .


----------



## Bonly (Jan 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> 1)Sorry how do u know tsunade was fighting madara clones for hours ??? Any reason to believe this



When the Gokage started to fight Madara it was daytime, you can see the sky is bright. When Madara made his clones the sky was still bright mean it was still daytime. When we come back to the Gokages fight the sky is dark meaning it's night time. That means that a few hours had to pass in order for it to go from day to night meaning that they fought for hours.



> 3) Hidan hit asuma mid range one can easily argue asuma has better feats than Mei when it comes to evasive abilities . He is also a cqc expert



Asuma went into CQC trying to hit Hidan, Mei isn't likely going to run into CQC rather then attack from a distance like she does a majority of the time. Asuma may have shown better movement speed then her but her jutsu using speed is better then Asuma's movement speed and you've seen her use two Suitons back to back. While hitting Asuma was some good skill on Hidan's part, that's not enough to suggest he can hit Mei. 



> 4) yes if lava lands the seal is undone however why would Hidan move away or jump away from the seal ? The lava drops on him and then they both die . That's. Draw



That's assuming he made a seal and managed to get her blood which first of all is unlikely but if he somehow did managed to do that and she did later her Yoton on him then sure in that case it's a draw, but a draw isn't a win for Hidan which you claimed he can do so really the best you can say is that Hidan could maybe draw Mei.



> 5) tsunade isn't going to waste time avoiding an attack than can't kill her . She only cares about evasion when he auto heal tech isn't on . Avoiding his sycthe also means she will take even if it's a second longer to get to him . She has no need to do that



So instead of Tsunade stopping Hidan's only means of somewhat useful attack you think she's gonna ignore it and just run around like a chicken with it's head cut off? Come on bruh you're gonna have to do better then that



> 6) punching Hidan will simply send him flying . Yes she punched and blew a hole in madara. That was nonetheless a clone . Clones cannot be remotely compared to their original in anything at all



No punching Hidan would kill him


----------



## Sword of the Morning (Jan 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The 3rd Did not tank the TBB though.
> and I believe this problem for most Kages has to do with their panel time while fighting honestly.
> 
> For example. We know the 3rd Raikage has 3 elements, we know he has black lightning, and he used the Sage's tool to seal the Hachibi once.
> ...



Everything points to that he did tank the TBB though. Gyuki's only chakra costing technique is the TBB. Gyuki ran out of chakra versus Raikage. Put two and two together, you reach the conclusion that Gyuki used TBB but the Raikage survived them. Theres no other logical conclusion that makes sense.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm basing my points of what the manga has shown, feats. What you say is true and many things in the manga contributed to us not seeing what all the Kage can really do but based strictly on feats and what the manga has shown, they all have ways to kill another Kage so so you can't claim one is a certain level and the other isn't with out a thorough analysis.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jan 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Although I agree with some of what you said, but again, Rasa had only 1 chapter of fighting, and it was against his own son. The other chapter was flashback. Kishi barely gave him the chance to fight, and he is not all that bad really.
> 
> I wanted to use Tobirama as an example that he can't take on 2 Kage level at the same time. As proven from his fight with Kin/Gin, actually even with help of another kage like A(the 2nd). But I thought the whole drama of "we do not know what happened blah blah blah" would return. And itachi
> is a dangerous character to say something about him around here as well.
> ...



Yeah, though basing on how easily Rasa lost to Gaara while the latter got trouble even with Oonoki backing him up against Mu and Gengetsu or how 3rd Raikage caused trouble to KCM Naruto I think Rasa got the weakest portrayal among the edo kages. Kishi also let Oro to offpanel him. He does not allow that to powerful good guys whom he likes and wants the readers to consider "great".

Granted it sorta happened to Hashi. Though if it took 10000 to bring down the 3rd Raikage then how many it took to bring down Hashirama? In part 1 it was said he died in the 1st War but it was no elaborated especially after his power was retconned in part 2. 

That said, Sunagakure kages in general look the least impressive along with Mizukages IMO. Tsuchikages can nuke stuff with Jinton, Raikage's are crazy fast and tanks, and hokages are the best kages. Yagura got potential though being a perfect Jin.


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## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2015)

Bonly said:


> When the Gokage started to fight Madara it was daytime, you can see the sky is bright. When Madara made his clones the sky was still bright mean it was still daytime. When we come back to the Gokages fight the sky is dark meaning it's night time. That means that a few hours had to pass in order for it to go from day to night meaning that they fought for hours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your first point is easy to counter between day time I. E sun light and nighttime 
An hour could have gone by depending on what country they are in . In England for example during winter at 5pm it's bright by 6pm it's dark nearing pitch black by 7:30
So I could easily argue they fought for an hour 

Your  right it isn't enough to suggest he can hit Mei but she has notning to show she can hit Hidan either . Between both of them who do I think would run out of steam first ?

Hidan can make a seal at the start of battle neither tsunade or mei have the speed to stop that . He did that in his first fight . Could easily be IC for him . It acts as an auto attack and defense. Once an attack comes his way he can jump back to the seal like he did with asuma 

Zero proof punching Hidan would kill him. If loosing a head doesn't kill him tsunade can punch all day he isn't going to die . She will send him flying and he will get up . Thats it, granted with progressing difficulty. the same way tsunade cannot kill orochimaru with a punch


*note: we are discussing high tier and i digressed. My bad, i do like this discussion though. I am going to go as far as to say hidan is mid kage level. Not going to make a new thread for it!!!...i dont see why someone with
1) the ability to tank all of kakuzu attack
2) seal with acts as an attack and defense so long as he has scratched the opponent
3) CQC skills that vastly exceed asuma
Should be less than mid kage level. But like i said he is well suited to fight some people and horribly suited to fight rasa or gaara or Ei

I am going to go as far as to say if kisame doesnt have knowledge he could loose to hidan *


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

Sword of the Morning said:


> Everything points to that he did tank the TBB though. Gyuki's only chakra costing technique is the TBB. Gyuki ran out of chakra versus Raikage. Put two and two together, you reach the conclusion that Gyuki used TBB but the Raikage survived them. Theres no other logical conclusion that makes sense.
> 
> I understand what you're saying, but I'm basing my points of what the manga has shown, feats. What you say is true and many things in the manga contributed to us not seeing what all the Kage can really do but based strictly on feats and what the manga has shown, they all have ways to kill another Kage so so you can't claim one is a certain level and the other isn't with out a thorough analysis.



the sky is dark
and even if he used it during the fight (other than this scan) we do not know if it hits him directly or not. But anyway, my statement was about the above scan specifically. 

I guess we I can agree with the second half.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Yeah, though basing on how easily Rasa lost to Gaara while the latter got trouble even with Oonoki backing him up against Mu and Gengetsu or how 3rd Raikage caused trouble to KCM Naruto I think Rasa got the weakest portrayal among the edo kages. Kishi also let Oro to offpanel him. He does not allow that to powerful good guys whom he likes and wants the readers to consider "great".
> 
> Granted it sorta happened to Hashi. Though if it took 10000 to bring down the 3rd Raikage then how many it took to bring down Hashirama? In part 1 it was said he died in the 1st War but it was no elaborated especially after his power was retconned in part 2.
> 
> That said, Sunagakure kages in general look the least impressive along with Mizukages IMO. Tsuchikages can nuke stuff with Jinton, Raikage's are crazy fast and tanks, and hokages are the best kages. Yagura got potential though being a perfect Jin.



- I guess that is more or less true. Though Rasa knew that Oro can use ET, so for all we know Oro could have summoned Hashi/Tobi against him. 

- As for off-panling him, as you said. 
Tobirama got off-panled by Kin/Gin. Hashirama got off-paneled by the first War fodders as well. The 3rd Raikage, the 3rd Kazekage...etc had the same fate as well. 

- Mmm, the 2nd Mizukage is good, and we know nothing about the 1st or the 3rd. 
but yeah Mei sucks for the most part.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 19, 2015)

Being stronger than most of the Kage qualifies a shinobi as high Kage-level. It's really not complicated.


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## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2015)

yh kishi could have really gone more into how someone with budda statue could be killed by fodders. 
but hey apparently how super powerful people die is of no concern to kishi. I recall a certain sakura actually being useful against kaguya. so yeah. kishi sucks in all aspects dealing with death of shinobi 

Gaara and his dad are mid kage level. they lack quality jutsu. high kage level requires quality jutsu. ET, hirashin, susanoo, jinton. Those sort of techniques are high kage level. I would say *level wise sasori is high kage level as well. But yes gaara will defeat him. So would some other high kage level, but he still very much there. Since outside gaara who is well suited to fight him. no other mid kage level can beat sasori*

@niku a ninja could be stronger than all of them because he is well suited to fight them. that doesnt necessairly mean level wise compared to all other who stand on said level that he is in their ballpark. People really forget some ninja techniques are basically designed to troll another ninja techniques. take the gaara hidan example. while you would call them both kage level. gaara would have -100000% difficulty against hidan


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## Bonly (Jan 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Your first point is easy to counter between day time I. E sun light and nighttime
> An hour could have gone by depending on what country they are in . In England for example during winter at 5pm it's bright by 6pm it's dark nearing pitch black by 7:30
> So I could easily argue they fought for an hour



Sure you could argue it but unless you have a way to proof that only an hour passed no one has any reason to think only an hour passed when we've seen an hour past in a fight and it still be daytime as well as Kishi never hinting that the time would be like the one in your example above. 



> Your  right it isn't enough to suggest he can hit Mei but *she has notning to show she can hit Hidan either *. Between both of them who do I think would run out of steam first ?



Then you haven't been reading any post in the thread or the manga if you think the bold because Mei has showed she can hit him.



> Hidan can make a seal at the start of battle no one can stop that . He did that in his first fight . Could easily be IC for him .



Actually you're wrong. Hidan's first fight was against Yugito and he didn't draw the blood seal right off the bat, his second fight was against Chiriku and he didn't draw the blood seal right off the bat, his third fight was against Asuma's group and he did draw the seal right off the bat(after they stabbed him and let him bleed), in his fourth fight against Kakashi+team Asuma he didn't draw the blood seal right off the bat and in his last battle against Shika he didn't draw the seal right off the bat when he was freed from Shika's control(he got the blood first). So if we're being honest then based on the five fights it isn't "easily IC" for Hidan to make the seal right off the bat as the only time he's done such is when someone made him bleed.



> It acts as an auto attack and defense. Once an attack comes his way he can jump back to the seal like he did with asuma



That's neat but if the seal is messed up then he'd need to make a new seal and until then nothing he do will hurt Tsunade. 



> Zero proof punching Hidan would kill him. If loosing a head doesn't kill him tsunade can punch all day he isn't going to die . She will send him flying and he will get up . Thats it



Then you haven't been reading the manga if you think there is "zero proof" that a punch from Tsunade would kill him.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

> yh kishi could have really gone more into how someone with budda statue could be killed by fodders.
> but hey apparently how super powerful people die is of no concern to kishi. I recall a certain sakura actually being useful against kaguya. so yeah. kishi sucks in all aspects dealing with death of shinobi



Well, the Buddha statue is only short-mid range jutsu, so they could have used long-range jutsus to attack. Or, if the Iwa fodders are the ones who killed him, they could have used their earth jutsu to trap the Buddha as they did the Juubi in its first transformation.


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## Mercurial (Jan 19, 2015)

For me it's:

1) Strong hax / very very strong offense / very very strong defense.
2) Very very good base abilities (speed and reflexes are the most important) or abilities that don't need them.

Then it depends. High kage/S rank in my book are people like Onoki, Kisame, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Danzo, Mu, 3rd Raikage, 2nd Mizukage, Ei. 
Right above people like Deidara (even if he could beat more than one of them), Sasori, Kakuzu, Hebi Sasuke (even if he could beat more than one of them) and so on. 
Definitely under people like Itachi, SM Kabuto, Tobirama, Minato, Nagato, Gai (without 8th Gate), Kakashi (1 MS), Obito (pre Rinnegan/Rinnegan).


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## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Sure you could argue it but unless you have a way to proof that only an hour passed no one has any reason to think only an hour passed when we've seen an hour past in a fight and it still be daytime as well as Kishi never hinting that the time would be like the one in your example above.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



am glad you mentioned that. well other fights could have simply started in the morning and gone to the afternoon. again not a good basis to actually say hours have passed like that. if that long had passed kishi would at least mention that they have been fighting for hours 

hidan was shown creating a seal mid swing against asuma. the seal that killed asuma wasnt the one he used at the start of battle. so clearly hidan can create them very quickly.

you are right he actually needs to get the blood first. 

mei hasnt shown any evasive skills to show she can avoid being scratched. acid mist hasnt shown much range or AoE nor has lava so they can be avoided. water dragon is fun and games but all it does is pushes hidan back


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## Sadgoob (Jan 19, 2015)

You should rank all the known Kage (exclude Hashirama) and then cut your list into thirds. I'm sure people's definitions will vary to some degree, but overall, there'd be a lot of similarities.​


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 19, 2015)

Gaara is high kage tier

His defence is pretty incredible
Shown to be the best tactician. 
His sand attacks are huge.
Can destroy an entire village in 2 moves


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## Sword of the Morning (Jan 19, 2015)

Danzo can solo Hashirama with Kotoamatsukami, considering we aren't restricting anything from their arsenals, so logically he could be the absolute strongest because in a one on one he beats all of them.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You should rank all the known Kage (exclude *Naruto*) and then cut your list into thirds. I'm sure people's definitions will vary to some degree, but overall, there'd be a lot of similarities.​



Fixed it for you. 



Sword of the Morning said:


> Danzo can solo Hashirama with Kotoamatsukami, considering we aren't restricting anything from their arsenals, so logically he could be the absolute strongest because in a one on one he beats all of them.



The Raikage has the sage tool as well. He could also solos Hashirama with it. All it would take is only 1 word.


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## Bonly (Jan 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> am glad you mentioned that. well other fights could have simply started in the morning and gone to the afternoon. again not a good basis to actually say hours have passed like that. if that long had passed kishi would at least mention that they have been fighting for hours



It was day time then it was night, that's a good basis to guess it was a few hours at the least. There are multiple fight that go on for a while yet Kishi makes no mention of time. 



> hidan was shown creating a seal mid swing against asuma. the seal that killed asuma wasnt the one he used at the start of battle. so clearly hidan can create them very quickly.



Wrong, Hidan made the seal before the fight started. You can see Hidan go back to the seal he drew instead of making a new seal. which we saw him do when he fought Shika.



> mei hasnt shown any evasive skills to show she can avoid being scratched.



JUTSU CASTING SPEED. She managed to cast a Suiton after Madara shot of his Katon and her Suiton was fast enough to get in front of Madara's Katon before it hit Tsunade(look at how close that Katon is to Tsunade in the first panel) and then she made another huge Suiton to send Madara into the air. Mei doesn't need to run and try to dodge it when she can make one hand seal that shots out a Suiton faster then Hidan landing an attack. 



> acid mist hasnt shown much range or AoE nor has lava so they can be avoided.



Hidan has to get within a few feet if he wants to hit her and within that range of a few feet he'll be within the range of her Futton and her Yoton, she doesn't need to have a big AoE with it deal lord I hate to think about what happens if Mei uses the hidden mist jutsuto lower Hidan's vision which will make getting away from her Futton hella hard as well as make it even worst to dodge Yoton 



> water dragon is fun and games but all it does is pushes hidan back



If it keeps on pushing Hidan and his weapon back then how does he get blood to use his ritual which is his only way to win?


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## Sadgoob (Jan 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Fixed it for you.



Naruto too. Sage Hashirama and RSM Naruto can clone solo all the other living Kage combined. They're way above the level.​


Hussain said:


> The Raikage has the sage tool as well. He could also solos Hashirama with it. All it would take is only 1 word.



You should make that thread.​


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## Sword of the Morning (Jan 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The Raikage has the sage tool as well. He could also solos Hashirama with it. All it would take is only 1 word.



The pot is what he used to keep Gyuki sealed in until a host became available. Its not a weapon he frequently used in battle and is widely known for using like how the GinKin Bros used theirs so your point doesn't make sense.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Naruto too. Sage Hashirama and RSM Naruto can clone solo all the other living Kage combined. They're way above the level.​
> 
> 
> You should make that thread.​



-  Naruto yes, Hashi lol no. 
especially not his fodder level clone. 

- Ok.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

Sword of the Morning said:


> The pot is what he used to keep Gyuki sealed in until a host became available. Its not a weapon he frequently used in battle and is widely known for using like how the GinKin Bros used theirs so your point doesn't make sense.



And Danzo was known for using his Koto?


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## StarWanderer (Jan 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> That what I thought off.
> I wonder how would Hidan fight when his tools get melt down for example.



Or he melt down himself. Or Tsunade breaks his bones. 

Hidan isnt a kage-level shinobi at all. He is a Jonin-level at best.


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## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> Gaara is high kage tier
> 
> His defence is pretty incredible
> Shown to be the best tactician.
> ...



lol yet he gets fooled by deidara
deidara cn destroy an entire village in 1 move. it doesnt make him high tier 

gaara defense was run through by chakra beads. not that incredible 

yes his sand attacks are huge


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## Punished Pathos (Jan 19, 2015)

War arc Kakashi was high Kage level.
Obito
Gai at six gates
Hanzo before he went into hiding.
Danzo with his upgrades
Sannin 
Kisame
3rd Raikage
Guruguru with Yamato as host (Spiral Zetsu)
Sakumo based on hype.


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## SSMG (Jan 19, 2015)

^Base guy is high kage level.


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## ARGUS (Jan 19, 2015)

Shinobbi that can compete with the upper echelon of kages are high kage level, 
basically shinobi who can fight against any kage bar Naruto and Hashirama ofc 

shinobi who can comfortably beat your regular kage, but are still not strong enough to be in the top tier, 

some high kage level shinobis are: 
minato, Tobirama, Itachi, Muu, Third Raikage, Pein etc

as for Kisame vs  Gaara - Kisame wins mid diff


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## StarWanderer (Jan 19, 2015)

SSMG said:


> ^Base guy is high kage level.



Low-kage level. His speed wont help him against most of the kage level shinobi in Narutoverse. Even Hidan, a Jonin-level shinobi, wont care about his base speed and punches. Plus, he can probably block most of them with his Scythe.


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## SSMG (Jan 19, 2015)

@star base guy is high kage tier because his speed is faster than kcm naruto he can block attacks that one shot kcm naruto clones he can react faster than base minato/kcm naruto and only Tsunade has harder strikes than him. But its not just all this. Its the skill he uses these abilities at. He is the best in the manga in taijutsu so add these feats with his skills and I see no reason why he isn't high kage tier.

And base guy lols at hidan.. Guy can bisect him with his strikes and speed. He'd pick hidan apart limb by limb.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 19, 2015)

SSMG said:


> @star base guy is high kage tier because his speed is faster than kcm naruto he can block attacks that one shot kcm naruto clones he can react faster than base minato/kcm naruto and only Tsunade has harder strikes than him. But its not just all this. Its the skill he uses these abilities at. He is the best in the manga in taijutsu so add these feats with his skills and I see no reason why he isn't high kage tier.
> 
> And base guy lols at hidan.. Guy can bisect him with his strikes and speed. He'd pick hidan apart limb by limb.



Wanna know how is he gonna beat Itachi, Konan, Third Raikage and Fourth Raikage at his base level. Or Deidara. Or Oonoki. Or Tsunade. Or War Arc Kakashi. Or Kakuzu.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

Base Gai is faster than KCM Naruto?


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## LostSelf (Jan 19, 2015)

Base Gai would embarrass Hidan depending on the knowledge he has on him.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Base Gai is faster than KCM Naruto?



 In terms of movement speed, maybe not, but in reaction feats and CQC, hell yeah. That's why KCM Naruto with another clone was pushed around like a rag doll while Obito couldn't even hit Base Gai or absorb him for that matter.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

What? 
Gai even with the Gates couldn't hit Obito either, what's your point?


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Base Gai would embarrass Hidan depending on the knowledge he has on him.



I think Hidan is one of the worst match up for Gai.


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## ueharakk (Jan 19, 2015)

For me:

1) beat two or more kages 50/50+

or

2) beat itachi 50/50+

Just off the top of my head.


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## ARGUS (Jan 19, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> In terms of movement speed, maybe not, *but in reaction feats and CQC, hell yeah*. That's why KCM Naruto with another clone was pushed around like a rag doll while Obito couldn't even hit Base Gai or absorb him for that matter.



Umm no,
KCM narutos shunshin >>>>>>>>>>> Base Guy 
KCM narutos reflexes >>>>>>>>>>>> Base Guys 
KCM narutos striking speed >> Base Guys 
so he gets raped in CQC,


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

the characters who were shown to be able to fight 2 Kages at least at the same time from what I remember.

Mu: Fought Onoki and Gaara, and he lost when Naruto join the battle. 
Gengutsu: Fought Gaara, Onoki + SA fodders. He was not serious in fighting them, and was telling them his weaknesses.

Minato: Fought A & B at the same time, while schooling them.
Hiruzen: fought Edo Hashi and Tobirama. 

Those the Kages that I remember were shown to fight more 2 Kage level opponent at the same time by themselves.


Well, though I feel it really is useless if we do not see their fights in their times. I don't think their "own" showing in a war where it has so many characters is enough to really show their abilities. For example, Hashirama (since I believe from the previous kages he is the only one who showed his full power) If kishi did not show his flashback like the others, how much weaker would he look to us? 

If Kishi showed his ability only in the battlefield like the others, we would have never known about his jutsus like
1- Buddha statue
2- the Rashomons
3- Mokuton: Hotei
4- Mokuton: Hōbi

and since Madara stole his power, he was also able to show Hashi's flower jutsu, gives more feats to the dragon jutsu...etc. 

We would have never known about those abilities if kishi only made Hashi fight in the current war without the Flashback. The same for the others, there are probably much more jutsus for them than what we have seen, and they might be stronger, or if not at least useful in some situations. 

However, having the Hokages fighting in a war where it's Naruto and Sasuke who should shine in it, and the most focus putted them in the side lines. For example, Hiruzen was barely given any time at all. Even the fight with the wooden dragons from the True or the mini-Buddha were off-paneled.


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## ueharakk (Jan 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> the characters who were shown to be able to fight 2 Kages at least at the same time from what I remember.
> 
> Mu: Fought Onoki and Gaara, and he lost when Naruto join the battle.
> Gengutsu: Fought Gaara, Onoki + SA fodders. He was not serious in fighting them, and was telling them his weaknesses.


It's not just fighting 2 kages at the same time, it's being able to win 50/50+ against them.  Plus, muu had unlimited chakra which is why oonoki needed gaara, and oonoki was so drained he couldn't even use jinton against Troll.  So a case via who they get put up against in the manga for edo muu being a high kage might be able to be made, but not Troll.



Hussain said:


> Minato: Fought A & B at the same time, while schooling them.
> Hiruzen: fought Edo Hashi and Tobirama.


Minato never beat them ever though, but he did have the upper hand in their fight plus I'm sure by feats he'd be able to take on at least 2 kages and win.
Hiruzen is legit.



Hussain said:


> Those the Kages that I remember were shown to fight more 2 Kage level opponent at the same time by themselves.


versus threads, not just who by chance got to fight 2 in the manga.



Hussain said:


> Well, though I feel it really is useless if we do not see their fights in their times. I don't think their "own" showing in a war where it has so many characters is enough to really show their abilities. For example, Hashirama (since I believe from the previous kages he is the only one who showed his full power) If kishi did not show his flashback like the others, how much weaker would he look to us?


I don't understand what you're trying to say here.  If feats are lacking, then go by portrayal.



Hussain said:


> If Kishi showed his ability only in the battlefield like the others, we would have never known about his jutsus like
> 1- Buddha statue
> 2- the Rashomons
> 3- Mokuton: Hotei
> ...


....but portrayal would have Hashirama being madara's equal or superior.  Thus you'd just put the character against madara and that would give you an idea about how well they'd do against Hashirama.



Hussain said:


> We would have never known about those abilities if kishi only made Hashi fight in the current war without the Flashback. The same for the others, there are probably much more jutsus for them than what we have seen, and they might be stronger, or if not at least useful in some situations.
> 
> However, having the Hokages fighting in a war where it's Naruto and Sasuke who should shin in it, and the most focus putted them in the side lines. For example, Hiruzen was barely given any time at all. Even the fight with the wooden dragons from the True or the mini-Buddha were off-paneled.


Yeah, so if feats are lacking, we use hype.  Plus, although we didn't get to se EVERYTHING from these guys, shinobi will generally use their strongest cards if pushed to use it, and kishi will show the shinobi's strongest cards in order to give the readers an idea of where they stand.  We don't have complete information, but you have to make due with what you have, not abuse the fact that there might be some unknowns.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 19, 2015)

> =ueharakk;52722361]It's not just fighting 2 kages at the same time, it's being able to win 50/50+ against them.  Plus, muu had unlimited chakra which is why oonoki needed gaara, and oonoki was so drained he couldn't even use jinton against Troll.  So a case via who they get put up against in the manga for edo muu being a high kage might be able to be made, but not Troll.


Which raise another problem. As you said he is "edo" so, any feats they show the fact that they are
"ET" would take some of it for whatever excuse people may create. Not to mention, most of that battle was off-panel as well, so we do not really even know what happened, or if Mu used jutsus that were not shown. 


> Minato never beat them ever though, but he did have the upper hand in their fight plus I'm sure by feats he'd be able to take on at least 2 kages and win.
> Hiruzen is legit.


We do not know if he defeated them or now. We know that A thought of him as unsurpassable, and we saw B who was trembling from even his name. Not to mention, from their first encounter and how Minato was schooling them about bonds I really doubt that he was planning to hurt them. 

The unfortunate thing to me is, Minato apparently was using his sealing jutsus, since A knows about them

That would have made it much easier than having people thinking he battles Bijuus with Kunai. 


> versus threads, not just who by chance got to fight 2 in the manga.


Indeed. 


> I don't understand what you're trying to say here.  If feats are lacking, then go by portrayal.


I mean they do not got to show a lot of the jutsus they have. portrayal is nice, and so is the hype. However, usually people need to "see" for them to believe that they excite. Or at least what those jutsus do. For example, some people still believe that Minato does not have any sealing jutsu except for SF, and they probably count that just because it kills him (lol). 

Or we have the 4th Databook given elements to the characters, but sadly, we do not know their jutsus in them, or their level, so it is hard to know what they may be capable off that we have not seen. 



> ....but portrayal would have Hashirama being madara's equal or superior.  Thus you'd just put the character against madara and that would give you an idea about how well they'd do against Hashirama.


Although that may be true to some extent, but from my view, I think that would make a different because of the match up things. For example, I can see Wind Attack jutsus cut easily throw the Wood. I.E what Temari did here (Just as an example). However, I don't see that they would work against the Susanoo the same way. 

and even though I do believe the a barrier would deal with the Buddha statue

*Spoiler*: __ 








but in my head that wouldn't work agains the Susanoo itself. I do not know why it is like that in my head though.  

Long story short, it is basically the match up things against some specific jutsu, even though overall Hashirama would probably crush most of the characters. 



> Yeah, so if feats are lacking, we use hype.


It gets annoying when "I" try to use hype or statements for example. If it is only "hype" people would say "No, this is a retcon" "this outdated" "that is a lie" " Kishi is full of shit and does not know anything"
and so on and so forth. 


> Plus, although we didn't get to se EVERYTHING from these guys, shinobi will generally use their strongest cards if pushed to use it, and kishi will show the shinobi's strongest cards in order to give the readers an idea of where they stand.


Although the stronges jutsu is indeed what Kishi tries to show most of the time, but some times weaker jutsus can be more useful in specific situations. For example, Onokis strongest jutsu is most likely his Jinton. However, his ability to lighten things was more useful for him against Madara's meteor. Or although the Raikages strongest jutsu is his 1 finger jutsu, but if he is fighting a long-range fighter his Black lightning would probably be more useful. 

Minato's jutsu that he was planning to use against Obito was never shown. And although FTG might be the best jutsu he uses overall. But against Bijuus or tank characters, his sealing jutsus would be of a greater help, and so on and do forth. 



> We don't have complete information, but you have to make due with what you have, not abuse the fact that there might be some unknowns.



True.

Sorry that was a longer than I expected. O_O


----------



## Kazekage94 (Jan 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> lol yet he gets fooled by deidara
> deidara cn destroy an entire village in 1 move. it doesnt make him high tier
> 
> gaara defense was run through by chakra beads. not that incredible
> ...



Are you stupid? 
He was fucking protecting the village, Gaara didn't have full knowledge. 

Gaara can casually beat more people than Tsunade, Ay, or Mei
Get your head out of your ass.


----------



## Jad (Jan 19, 2015)

Taijutsu skills that are actually useful in combat against Kage levels when the time matters.

Ninjutsu skills that are A or S skills that can be used a few times.

Genjutsu breaking skills of Jounin level and the ability to perhaps know you are in one. Any Genjutsu above Jounin level is probably too Hax at that point.

Plus, the most important thing, being able to beat the majority of Kage level ninjas.

Oh yeah, and being fast gives you a huge boost.


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Which raise another problem. As you said he is "edo" so, any feats they show the fact that they are
> "ET" would take some of it for whatever excuse people may create. Not to mention, most of that battle was off-panel as well, so we do not really even know what happened, or if Mu used jutsus that were not shown.


ET grant people immortal bodies and infinite chakra.  If feats performed as an edo aren't implied to require either of those, then you can apply that to the actual body.  Oonoki was getting tired when he fought Muu, therefore Muu having unlimited chakra was definitely a factor in his fight with oonoki.  It takes a little bit of effort, but these 'problems' you talk about can be approached with logical solutions.



Hussain said:


> We do not know if he defeated them or now. We know that A thought of him as unsurpassable, and we saw B who was trembling from even his name. Not to mention, from their first encounter and how Minato was schooling them about bonds I really doubt that he was planning to hurt them.


If he defeated Ei and B, neither of them would be here.  Ei said he fought minato many times, minato was incapable of killing either of them despite all of those encounters.  Minato being individually stronger than both Ei and B is in line with Ei's statement that he thought Minato would not be surpassed. 



Hussain said:


> The unfortunate thing to me is, Minato apparently was using his sealing jutsus, since A knows about them
> 
> That would have made it much easier than having people thinking he battles Bijuus with Kunai.


So what is your agenda here?  To make minato look good?  I'm not arguing against or for minato using kunai to battle bijuu or what not, stick to the argument at hand.  The fourth sealing the kyuubi into naruto is common knowledge, and as commander of the entire Shinobi army, ei would have access to all of konoha's intellectual resources.



Hussain said:


> I mean they do not got to show a lot of the jutsus they have. portrayal is nice, and so is the hype. However, usually people need to "see" for them to believe that they excite. Or at least what those jutsus do. For example, some people still believe that Minato does not have any sealing jutsu except for SF, and they probably count that just because it kills him (lol).


Dude, enough about minato, he's just a fictional character, lets discuss the point not try to beat out new buffs for goldenguy.  

Minato sealed the kyuubi into naruto, it's impossible for people to claim he only has SF.  If you want to make a case for minato being capable of a jutsu, you've got a burden of proof to make that case.



Hussain said:


> Or we have the 4th Databook given elements to the characters, but sadly, we do not know their jutsus in them, or their level, so it is hard to know what they may be capable off that we have not seen.


Same as above, if you want to argue a person has a certain jutsu, make a case.  



Hussain said:


> Although that may be true to some extent, but from my view, I think that would make a different because of the match up things. For example, I can see Wind Attack jutsus cut easily throw the Wood. I.E what Temari did here (Just as an example). However, I don't see that they would work against the Susanoo the same way.
> 
> and even though I do believe the a barrier would deal with the Buddha statue
> 
> ...


That's all completely irrelevant.  If we don't have information about what hashirama is capable of, and only know that he's = or greater than madara, then hashirama can be equaled to madara. If we don't have any info on hashirama's capabilities, then it could be the case that the ultimate mokuton he uses is even more durable than susanoo, and therefore temari's wind wouldn't do anything to it.  Unless wind is the superior element to wood, then temari being able to cut a lot of normal trees in a forest says nothing about her ability to cut hashirama's wood constructs.  Plus, if we don't have any knowledge, we don't even know if mokuton really is hashirama's trump card.  Prior to it becoming known to us, it could have been the case that hashirama had some kind of uber summon, or form, or chakrazord of his own, or even just controlling all the other 8 beasts or something that makes him above madara.



Hussain said:


> Long story short, it is basically the match up things against some specific jutsu, even though overall Hashirama would probably crush most of the characters.


Sure, if you have the information, you can make a case like that.  But without that information, you can't, you just have to make the best with the information you have.  



Hussain said:


> It gets annoying when "I" try to use hype or statements for example. If it is only "hype" people would say "No, this is a retcon" "this outdated" "that is a lie" " Kishi is full of shit and does not know anything"
> and so on and so forth.
> 
> Although the stronges jutsu is indeed what Kishi tries to show most of the time, but some times weaker jutsus can be more useful in specific situations. For example, Onokis strongest jutsu is most likely his Jinton. However, his ability to lighten things was more useful for him against Madara's meteor. Or although the Raikages strongest jutsu is his 1 finger jutsu, but if he is fighting a long-range fighter his Black lightning would probably be more useful.


statements do get outdated... there was a time when raikiri was stated to pierce anything, when itachi couldn't have been beaten by anyone but another sharingan user, when Ei was the fastest person alive.

Sure, oonoki's other jutsu can be useful in other situations.  However, the same can be said about the opponent, they might have some unshown jutsu that might counter the unshown jutsu that you're trying to attribute to your own character.  Therefore, if you don't have enough information for a good feat comparison, you have to use hype.  Else, it's just going to be you catering to a double standard.  You're going to want to give your character some feats he hasn't shown, without giving the oposing character the same benefit of the doubt.



Hussain said:


> Minato's jutsu that he was planning to use against Obito was never shown. And although FTG might be the best jutsu he uses overall. But against Bijuus or tank characters, his sealing jutsus would be of a greater help, and so on and do forth.


....sure, don't see who's contesting this.  This however doesn't warrant you to give characters abilities or massively buff their shown abilities in order to beat someone just because their entire moveset hasn't been fleshed out, because the same can be said for the opposing character.  

What I would do is make 2 cases: feats and portrayal.  Which character wins via feats, which character wins via portrayal.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 19, 2015)

In narrative terms, it's when other kage class people place you above other kage.  Madara singles out Oonoki as being a cut above the other kage.  Pain and other kage pay reverence to the power of the Sannin.  Pain specifically Jiraiya.  Every kage class fighter from Konoha and other villages put Minato in a class above them.  

Translated to combat, High Kage generally take more than one kage to beat, but below the god tiers that solo teams of kage.  Minato could fight Bee and Ei at the same time.  Onoki casualled Sasuke and beat his 5 Madaras.  Itachi defeated Hebi Sasuke and Orochimaru.  SM Jiraiya defeated 3 Paths of Pain.  He also has two kage class frogs on his shoulders.  Ect.



FlamingRain said:


> ...He can?



Yeah I thought that.

Feat based Hidan is a bad marker for all the reasons AP mentioned.

Hidan used to be a good match for Tsunade because he could get blown to Africa to get her blood, and then draw his circle in Africa.  But then she blew up Madara so Hidan goes to Africa in bits that can't draw circles. 

Mei probably just douses him in lava and he's TKO'd.  He might dodge some, but he can't do aerobics when the floor is made of lava.

It's all very beside the point though.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 20, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> Are you stupid?
> He was fucking protecting the village, Gaara didn't have full knowledge.
> 
> Gaara can casually beat more people than Tsunade, Ay, or Mei
> Get your head out of your ass.



no but you are. your entirely stupid statement was  he is the best tactician. so why get fooled by deidara? 

yes thats your bias belief. certainly he can beat more people than Mei, she is weak and tsunade perhaps. but Ei lol no you get your head which is deeply buried in your ass

@those saying base gai is high kage level . so in gates before the 8th he is one god tier? despite needing 6 gates to beat shouten kisame?? seriously. in base he couldnt do shit to kisame. lets not forget that simply because he performed well in the war. or i can easily say since kisame bullied him in cqc he would perform even better than gai did against obito. which isnt true. so lets not use one single panel instance where base gai saves naruto to remotely assume he is as fast. 

his taijutsu technique was unpredictable, not super fast. thats why obito couldnt catch him.

@pirate she punched a clone madara and blew it up true. however clones<<<<<<<<<<<original by a decent margin. the creator of the technique certainly knows this. KCM naruto clone being unable to beat chiyo and kimimaro is an even clearer indication. KCM original rapes them with negative difficulty. 

tsunade will punch hidan he will fly thats it. he isnt going to die from far it. if he gets her blood first which he shouldnt being more agile and having better range. her punching him will hurt her just as much and both would be sent flying. greater distance after obtaining her blood helps hidan alot more

*More to the point Muu is high kage level. Going by all previously discussed criteria 
1) beating 2+ kages 
2) jad requirements. 
3) how they stack up to other people in said established tier 
4) narutoX28 requirement of beating itachi 
*

Does anyone disagree?

1) he beats tsunade and Mei, so thats 2 down. Onoki makes 3, Ei makes 4 and yes gaara makes  5. He can certainly beat 2 to 3 of them 10/10
2) sadly he only has genjutsu breaking skills being a sensor and all 
3) he stacks up well against- minato etc
4) he can beat itachi 50/50- depending on if people believe itachi can see him. which i have no reason to believe


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## Icegaze (Jan 20, 2015)

Bonly said:


> It was day time then it was night, that's a good basis to guess it was a few hours at the least. There are multiple fight that go on for a while yet Kishi makes no mention of time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The seal that killed asuma wasn't the seal he formed at the start of their fight . He clearly says it's not the same seal . That means he formed a seal right in front of asuma and asuma didn't even notice while in cqc!!!!! Seriously 
after Madara shot of his Katon

It's not the same !!

If she keeps pushing Hidan back she is wasting chakra . Hidan can just keep coming . 
Yes hidden mist is a very good tactic . I can't argue that .  However she doesn't seem to use it all that often . Would have been a nice idea to use it 5 on 1. Considering dojutsu can't see through it 
But she didn't


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## Alex Payne (Jan 20, 2015)

It's not the same <trick>. Circle is the same. You can see right it near where Hidan was standing before Asuma tried to attack.


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## Icegaze (Jan 20, 2015)

Wait for real 
Kk I recant then 
Thanks 
Either way it means on 2 separate occasion he was able to get to his seal before asuma and back up could stop him from doing so 
That at least says something doesn't it ?


----------



## Alex Payne (Jan 20, 2015)

Ritual was prepared beforehand. First time Asuma used AoE jutsu without knowledge - giving Hidan more than enough time to move and due to jutsu's nature Asuma's backup were unable to act(and they were ordered not to either way). Second time Asuma was already beaten up and heavily injured. With back up focusing on Kakuzu. 

Main point though is that we are talking about Asuma. Solid Elite Jonin. But he doesn't even scratch the level of Kage. He was going against two people with bizarre abilities with each being superior to him in his eyes. And a bunch of scrubs he wanted to protect at all costs. He was out of his element. Was outclassed and emotionally compromised. Any known Kage and Elites close to them(Chiyo, Mifune) would perform better in the same situation. 

Hidan is often underrated but his gimmick style wasn't very thought out by Kishi in my opinion. It looks cool but isn't very practical. Not without additional Scythe-traps and Curses at least.


----------



## Ghost (Jan 20, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Hidan is often underrated but his gimmick style wasn't very thought out by Kishi in my opinion. It looks cool but isn't very practical. Not without additional Scythe-traps and Curses at least.



Thank the editors for that.


----------



## SSMG (Jan 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Wanna know how is he gonna beat Itachi, Konan, Third Raikage and Fourth Raikage at his base level. Or Deidara. Or Oonoki. Or Tsunade. Or War Arc Kakashi. Or Kakuzu.



Itachi is weaker and slower than guy so he gets beaten up or  with guys amazing stamina and itachis shit stamina guy can outlast him if need be.

Konan can beat him with her 600billion tags.. But then again she can beat everyone you listed.  Also she can be beaten by taijutsu so she's just in general a bad matchup for guy to go against.

Third and fourth raikage are weaker and slower and far less skilled  than base guy so he beats them up.

Deidera gets blitzd before he can take to the air. Once he gets to the air guy can dodge/block the explosive bombs. The invisible nano bomb would fuck guy up though.

Oonkis dust is far to slow to hit guy so guy can dance around it and outlast oonki or possibly blitz him as well.

Tsunade is slower and much less skilled in taijutsu than guy. He beats her up.

War arc kakshis main gimmick is kamui.. Which is as fast as obitos kamui and guy countered that already. So guy can dodge kakashis kamui and then beat him up once kakashi is tired. Kakashi could do some clone trickery and land a kamui though I'd say this one is 50/50.

Kakuzu may be able to beat him using the iron skin I'm not sure how guys strikes would do against that jutsu. But guy may be able to blitz before kakuzu even has time to use it.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 20, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Ritual was prepared beforehand. First time Asuma used AoE jutsu without knowledge - giving Hidan more than enough time to move and due to jutsu's nature Asuma's backup were unable to act(and they were ordered not to either way). Second time Asuma was already beaten up and heavily injured. With back up focusing on Kakuzu.
> 
> Main point though is that we are talking about Asuma. Solid Elite Jonin. But he doesn't even scratch the level of Kage. He was going against two people with bizarre abilities with each being superior to him in his eyes. And a bunch of scrubs he wanted to protect at all costs. He was out of his element. Was outclassed and emotionally compromised. Any known Kage and Elites close to them(Chiyo, Mifune) would perform better in the same situation.
> 
> Hidan is often underrated but his gimmick style wasn't very thought out by Kishi in my opinion. It looks cool but isn't very practical. Not without additional Scythe-traps and Curses at least.



Solid point. Since you seem at least midly interested in hidan. just for the lolz what traps and curses can you come up with?

On the subject though. Mei cant really stop him from jumping inside a circle she doesnt know about. I also doubt she can wash it off. kakashi formed a seal round sasuke curse seal with his blood. Sasuke must have showered it didnt wash off. 

Also note while her jutsu normally speaking should be able to melt a person body off completely. Please note animal path was dipped in gastric acid and it didnt even melt off his limbs. He was still able to fight. I see her lava or acid hitting hidan but not killing him. 

Even when the acid made contact with sasuke it burnt his skin. It didnt burn him to the bone. Nothing at all from what kishi has shown indicates if her acid hit anyone they would be melted to nothing.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 20, 2015)

> =ueharakk;52722842]ET grant people immortal bodies and infinite chakra.  If feats performed as an edo aren't implied to require either of those, then you can apply that to the actual body.  Oonoki was getting tired when he fought Muu, therefore Muu having unlimited chakra was definitely a factor in his fight with oonoki.  It takes a little bit of effort, but these 'problems' you talk about can be approached with logical solutions.


Fair enough. 
How would you determine the amount of chakra the living Mu for example may have?


> If he defeated Ei and B, neither of them would be here.  Ei said he fought minato many times, minato was incapable of killing either of them despite all of those encounters.  Minato being individually stronger than both Ei and B is in line with Ei's statement that he thought Minato would not be surpassed.



Not true at all. Would you say Hashirama was not able to defeat Kakuzu because Kakuzu was alive? Or that he never defeated Madara because Madara is alive? Or Madara never defeated the 5 kages, or Mu and Onoki because they are alive? Or itachi never defeated Oro...etc
The obvious answer is no. Defeating someone does not mean killing him. Naruto never killed anyone either, that does not mean he never won.  



> So what is your agenda here?  To make minato look good?  I'm not arguing against or for minato using kunai to battle bijuu or what not, stick to the argument at hand.  The fourth sealing the kyuubi into naruto is common knowledge, and as commander of the entire Shinobi army, ei would have access to all of konoha's intellectual resources.


The *obvious* point is "hype" alone does not cut it. People most of the time need to actually "see". As simple as that, Minato is only an example.  

If you do not like him as an example, you have Hiruzen. It is stated that he has all the jutsus in konoha and can use them. How many time did you come across people that willing to accept that and use it in a debate? 


> Dude, enough about minato, he's just a fictional character, lets discuss the point not try to beat out new buffs for goldenguy.
> 
> Minato sealed the kyuubi into naruto, it's impossible for people to claim he only has SF.  If you want to make a case for minato being capable of a jutsu, you've got a burden of proof to make that case.
> 
> ...



Again, he is an example for God Sake since he actually have the hype. 
Other than Minato, you have Darui for example, and there was a thread about Darui Vs Asuma. 
People claim that Darui was at a disadvantage in term of COC because Asuma uses Wind Element.
But when I brought the Databook to them, they did not accept it, or actually use it because of the lack of "feat"

I think my point is fairly clear. 




> That's all completely irrelevant.  If we don't have information about what hashirama is capable of, and only know that he's = or greater than madara, then hashirama can be equaled to madara. If we don't have any info on hashirama's capabilities, then it could be the case that the ultimate mokuton he uses is even more durable than susanoo, and therefore temari's wind wouldn't do anything to it.  Unless wind is the superior element to wood, then temari being able to cut a lot of normal trees in a forest says nothing about her ability to cut hashirama's wood constructs.  Plus, if we don't have any knowledge, we don't even know if mokuton really is hashirama's trump card.  Prior to it becoming known to us, it could have been the case that hashirama had some kind of uber summon, or form, or chakrazord of his own, or even just controlling all the other 8 beasts or something that makes him above madara.



Is that why people think that Hiruzen has a greater jutsu than the Buddha because it was stated that he is the strongest of all the 4 Hokages? Hiruzen even showed the ability to cut the Tree's wood, but that did not stop people of saying that the Tree is weaker than Hashirama.  




> statements do get outdated... there was a time when raikiri was stated to pierce anything, when itachi couldn't have been beaten by anyone but another sharingan user, when Ei was the fastest person alive.


Precisely. Which is why "hype" does not always cut it. This the whole point I am trying to make. 


> Sure, oonoki's other jutsu can be useful in other situations.  However, the same can be said about the opponent, they might have some unshown jutsu that might counter the unshown jutsu that you're trying to attribute to your own character.  Therefore, if you don't have enough information for a good feat comparison, you have to use hype.  Else, it's just going to be you catering to a double standard.  You're going to want to give your character some feats he hasn't shown, without giving the oposing character the same benefit of the doubt.


Which is again why I said seeing the characters actually fight rather than making their battles off-panel is what makes us able to know better about their full power. Which is why I also do not think
we can know the full power for X character.


> ....sure, don't see who's contesting this.  This however doesn't warrant you to give characters abilities or *massively buff their shown abilities* in order to beat someone just because their entire moveset hasn't been fleshed out, because the same can be said for the opposing character.


Which is why I mentioned earlier (not with you probably) that I believe Kishi never showed us the full power of most of the Kages. Except perhaps for some selective few that were shown in a lot of chapters. 

@Bold.
That also depends on the character's condition. For example, we were told that Hiruzen is much weaker than he was in his prime. We know his Edo self is even weaker than his living self. And he has enormous hype. For example, Hashirama Edo self in part 1 was pathatic compare to his living self, and he got massively stronger than his previously showing abilities (part 1)



> What I would do is make 2 cases: feats and portrayal.  Which character wins via feats, which character wins via portrayal.


Fair enough.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 20, 2015)

SSMG said:


> Itachi is weaker and slower than guy so he gets beaten up or  with guys amazing stamina and itachis shit stamina guy can outlast him if need be.
> 
> Konan can beat him with her 600billion tags.. But then again she can beat everyone you listed.  Also she can be beaten by taijutsu so she's just in general a bad matchup for guy to go against.
> 
> ...



Base Guy cant counter Itachi's Susanoo and there is a chance he will be caught in a genjutsu, or burned with Amaterasu.

Base Guy doesnt have a stamina level of Third Raikage, who could fight the whole army for 3 days and he cant do anything to The Third. Raikage kills him.

V2 Ei isnt slower than Guy by a large margin. Guy is probably a little bit faster. But that wont help him, since he cant do anything to Ei, and Ei's Raiton can cut through swords.

Deidara can be in the air from the beginning of the fight. And than, he blows Guy up with no problem. He cant dodge a whole field of explosives.

Guy doesnt have travel speed to dodge large-scale Jinton. You see? He himself has excellent reflexes and body movement speed during the fight, but he lacks travel speed. Oonoki beats him no problem.

He wont do anything to Tsunade at all. 

Kamui's intangibility isnt as fast as Kamui absorption. And Kakashi can Kamui him from a long distance. Plus his clones and Raiton.

Guy cant kill Kakuzu with his punches. 

So yeah, base Guy is a low-kage level.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 20, 2015)

> The thing is Mei acid(its not lava) he yoton is acid and her Acid mist really have no feats to suggest they would melt hidan completely or make him unable to fight.



It melted the crap out of Madara's Susano.  Susano is less melty than skin.

She also used it as soon as she was fighting without team mates around her.


----------



## Bonly (Jan 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> no i do not but you have no proof she did either so *you cant claim it.*



Did I try to claim she did?



> Also note its not a tactic she tried against zetsu either. She also isnt known for using the silent killing technique.



"while she may be good to fight in the mist, not everyone else is so I doubt she'd used it multiple times or use the jutsu for a long time.". And yet again you use another fight which was off panel by quite a bit(fight went on for over a day) so again we don't know if she used it or not.



> The thing is Mei acid(its not lava) he yoton is acid and her *Acid mist really have no feats to suggest they would melt hidan completely or make him unable to fight*. Her acid mist touched sasuke skin and it burnt it no worse than asuma katon. *Her Acid spit failed to even slightly melt rib cage susanoo on 2 separate occasions.*
> 
> Especially when gastric acid something very similar to Mei jutsu has already hit animal path(someone far less durable than hidan) and it failed to even melt his body part off. It did however kill him



Yoton is called "Lava release" so I'd assume it would be lava. You can clearly see that her Futton started to  melt Susanoo(I mean just look at how fucked up rib cage Susanoo looks) which shits on Hidan's durability. Not only that but incase you forgot Sasuke had Susanoo up which is a defense that can protect him from attacks(you can see the Susanoo arua around him) and yet her Futton still managed to get through Susanoo to burn Sasuke so it has the felts to suggest it can melt Hidan to the point where he'll be unable to fight. Sasuke was in the mist for a short limited amount of time with a defense up which is why he only started to get flesh burn, Hidan is gonna be in the mist longer then Sasuke and Hidan doesn't have a defense like Susanoo to help protect him. After Edo Madara Susanoo was dumped in a crapload of her Yoton it also started to melt as well(go look back at Sasuke's Susanno) and look at one of Madara's Susanoo clones fist that punched Mei. Now go back and look at Sasuke's and Madara's Susanoo that been hit by Yoton and Futton. Notice how similar they all look. Really dude stop underestimating Mei and her jutsu.



> i do not see how someone kakuzu cannot kill despite gian, atsugi, and zukoku is simply going to be hit once by lava and fall to the ground




Hidan got his head cut off and was still alive along with getting cut to tiny little pieces bar his head and he's still currently alive(Kishi said so in an interview IIRC). So yeah Kakuzu not being able to not kill him isn't strange when he doesn't have the right jutsu.


----------



## SSMG (Jan 20, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Base Guy cant counter Itachi's Susanoo and there is a chance he will be caught in a genjutsu, or burned with Amaterasu.
> 
> Base Guy doesnt have a stamina level of Third Raikage, who could fight the whole army for 3 days and he cant do anything to The Third. Raikage kills him.
> 
> ...



Guy outlasts susannos and dodges both those jutsus. Raikage could dodge ammy so therefore guy can as well. 

Guy beats them up with his boulder crushing strikes. My comment had nothing to do with outlasting him...

It does a lot when eis whole gimmick is speed and strength. Since base guy is faster stronger and more skilled than ei, Guy beats him in taijutsu.

So you have deidera start the fight in the air to stack the odds against guy? All while forgetting he needs to spit out the clay mold it into a bird and hope on said bird in order to get into the air? Guy blitzes during this. And sure he can he's faster than kcm naruto in speed.

Madara could dodge large scale jinton no problem. Guy is just as fast if not faster than Edo madara in reflexes and speed.he dodges it like madara did.. Also Obito also could kamui in, grab sasuke and kamui out all during the prep time for jinton.. Guy blitzes during this time.

Except for beat her up until she runs out of chakra from healing the damage. Which would be a few hits. Also guy with his numchuku can block Tsunade hits. Which he easily can do to the skill and speed of guy. Tsunade will not be able to block guys hits cuz she's too slow.

Good thing kakashi can only use the absorption factor of kamui. But yeah kakashi and obito both warped each other into kamui land on the same exact panel. Guy dances around that and beats up kakashi.

Guy can smash boulders with his punches and knockdown walls with a one inch punch therefore he can dent the iron skin causing it to hit kakuzus internal organs killing off his hearts.

Low kage tier is ppl like hidan darui mifune and the likes.. Guy beats those guys every time. He's def mid if not high kage tier.


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## Icegaze (Jan 20, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Did I try to claim she did?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's odd you say rib cage shits on Hidan durability when Hidan casually tanks kakuzu attacks we also saw what a wind attack from Danzo did to assume V3 susanoo which is much more durable than rob cage


kirotsuchi Jutsu is also called yoton however it's cement . Mei Jutsu is acid and not lava 

I am not underestimating Mei Jutsu they just have no feats at all . The panels you showed could simply be mei acid just hanging on to the susanoo and not the susanoo melting 

Her acid shot hit sasuke rib cage susanoo head on and it didn't even slightly melt read chapter 465
Her acid shot (lava ) did nothing to rib cage .  Sorry are you saying that Danzo futon or kakuzu futton will do no damage at all to rib cage susanoo ??? 

Because Atsugi will send sasuke flying and do more damage in his landing than her lava 

I have no doubt she can burn hidan time and time again what I am saying I don't know  how that stops hidan from fighting . Does she have any feats of melting off a body part ??

Are we saying hidan burnt from head to toe will be unable to fight ?


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## Trojan (Jan 20, 2015)

I wanted to add this point in my previous post, but I do not know where to edit it. 
so, anyway...

I suppose the type of opponents and the situation that the characters put in (On-panel) does as well effect 
his/her ability against Z character. For example, it rather common (from what I see) that almost all the characters
lose to itachi's finger Genjutsu, and the excuse is usually "Well, X character has never shown anything against
Genjutsu". When for all we know, we just haven't seen this character put in a situation where he or she had to deal
with this type of opponents.

So, when X character fights Y character, they will use jutsus that does work against their current opponent, not jutsus that work against Z character. For example, Mu has not shown a jutsu that deals with Genjutsu on panel, but we know for a fact that he was able to kill Gengutsu, a genjutsu user. His on-panel feats does not show us any of that.

and so on and so forth with other characters as well...


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## Bonly (Jan 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> It's odd you say rib cage shits on Hidan durability when Hidan casually tanks kakuzu attacks we also saw what a wind attack from Danzo did to assume V3 susanoo which is much more durable than rob cage



Danzo's Futon is a cutting Futon while Kakuzu's is a highly pressurized Futon, not only that but Danzo's Futon was powered up by Baku's Suction. If Hidan got hit by Danzo's powered up Futon then he'd be cut to pieces as well.




> kirotsuchi Jutsu is also called yoton however it's cement . Mei Jutsu is acid and not lava



Dodai jutsu is also called Yoton however it's rubber. Is rubber an acid as well now? What about Roshi(Son Goku's aka 4tails Jin), he used Yoton as well and his Yoton is obviously lava. Mei's Yoton is lava, draw a bridge and get over it. 



> I am not underestimating Mei Jutsu they just have no feats at all .



Either you are underestimating it or you don't know what the fuck a feat is to say it has no feats at all.



> The panels you showed could simply be mei acid just hanging on to the susanoo and not the susanoo melting



Are you fucking kidding dude? Sasuke said "IT'S MELTING" yet you think that the Susanoo wasn't melting. Get your shit together and stop the bullshit or we're done here.



> Her acid shot hit sasuke rib cage susanoo head on and it didn't even slightly melt read chapter 465
> Her acid shot (lava ) did nothing to rib cage.



And yet you've seen what happened to Madara's rib cage after being hit by a few Yoton shots. Just because one shot didn't do much doesn't mean that Yoton does nothing. 



> Sorry are you saying that Danzo futon or kakuzu futton will do no damage at all to rib cage susanoo ???



If it's Danzo's powered up Futon then rib caged gets shit on while it may take a little damage from Kakuzu's Futon.



> Because Atsugi will send sasuke flying and do more damage in his landing than her lava



I doubt it would do more damage then Yoton would



> I have no doubt she can burn hidan time and time again what I am saying I don't know  how that stops hidan from fighting . Does she have any feats of melting off a body part ??



Does Hidan have any feats of hitting a Kage level enemies? No? Hurr Durr then Hidan can't hit Mei . Stop acting like a idiot and use common sense, what do you think is gonna happen if Hidan stays in the mist which constantly starts to melt him? He only gets a burned skinned and nothing else happens? 



> Are we saying hidan burnt from head to toe will be unable to fight ?



We are saying that Hidan's gonna get more then burnt skin and he'll reach a point to where he can't fight anymore


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 20, 2015)

Sasuke:  It's melting.
Mei: I'm melting you.
Sasuke:  It's melting me.
Susano:  *melts*


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## Icegaze (Jan 20, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Sasuke:  It's melting.
> Mei: I'm melting you.
> Sasuke:  It's melting me.
> Susano:  *melts*



odd how all that happened to sasuke was some skin peeling off. Big whoop

@bonly calm down Yoton hits rib cage nothing at all happens to it. no signs of it remotely melting. None what so ever. 

puddle of goo

Please show me signs of melting on the rib cage. She shot a stream at sasuke while he stood there. No melting

  Roshi lava i am glad you brough that up, hit a tree and burnt it partially the tree didnt suddenly melt into nothing. 

Mei yoton did jack shit to susanoo in every form it has been presented. If it was going to do anything to it. she would have defeated madara clones. Same way i can clearly say Ei attacks and tsunade attacks did nothing to the clones either guess why the clones were still casually standing. 

Mei acid hit sasuke arm and burnt it. its not like the second acid hits hidan he will turn to a pool of blood. It will progressively burn him. Easy for him to run through it and use his immortal body to his advantage. Get her blood then start his curse. 

Melting progressively susanoo rib cage in an enclosed space is not the same as melting a person coming at you in a wide area. Just saying. Once again hidan will not instantly melt, he can use that to his advantage. And attack her while taking on her attacks.

The same way if it were tsunade she will take them on regen and kill Mei, or orochimaru takes them on and spits out a new body, or danzo can simply run at her with izanagi. die and keep running.  The immortality thing has perks people seem to be ignoring


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## Ghost (Jan 20, 2015)

Be able to beat the majority of the Kages and two or more Kages at once.


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## Icegaze (Jan 20, 2015)

Actually most high tier cant beat 2 kages at once so i dont think thats a good basis to measure them. I know people might want to claim someone like minato can take on Ei and onoki at once i dont believe that.

Yes taking on Mei and tsunade at once is possible. So maybe your right


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 20, 2015)

Gaara can beat Ei.

He blocked one of his strongest attacks with a little amount of sand. Get your facts straight. 

You people fail to realize Gaara had no knowledge on Deidara aside from that the village was involved which was the reason he lost that fight.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 20, 2015)

Sasuke's skin peeled because Susano was barely protecting him, and just starting to fail.


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## Sans (Jan 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> odd how all that happened to sasuke was some skin peeling off. Big whoop



Do you try to be this wrong, or does it just come naturally to you?


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## DavyChan (Jan 20, 2015)

Well I think Sakura is pretty High Kage level. At least she has ur 2nd quality down-pact


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## LostSelf (Jan 20, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I think Hidan is one of the worst match up for Gai.



He is. But he ends getting the Kisame treatment when Gai steals his scythe and uses it to kick his ass .


----------



## Trojan (Jan 20, 2015)

It does not matter, he is not going to die. 
Actually he would probably enjoy it!


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 20, 2015)

Yeah, but enjoying being cut to pieces won't really win the fight for him.


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## Trojan (Jan 20, 2015)

Thank God Gai does not have a jutsu that would cut him into pieces I suppose.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Hidan made his seal at the start of the fight against asuma team. Shikamaru who is horrendously smarter than tsunade didnt think oh god we must destroy a seal we know nothing about and so far has done nothing.



I seriously doubt it was because he wasn't smart enough to do it _were it feasible for them_.

Shikamaru would have also known that they lacked any powers that could break apart the ground itself- _Katon: Haisekishō_ boasts the most explosive power of any technique that team has used, and even it did pretty much nothing to the ground.

Tsunade on the other hand does not face this problem.



> But yes tsunade will immediately watch out for it.



And that is why she will probably go ahead and destroy it.



> ok I admit tsunade would try grab the sycthe probably draws Hidan in for a punch . Hidan pulls out a spike and stabs her as he is sent flying miles away . He gets up forms a seal then stabs himself



If she did that the scythe would still be in her other hand, which has a better grip in just its pinky finger than Hidan has using both arms at once.

The scythe is not actually attached to Hidan himself, like Orochimaru's tongue was to him, so when she hits him he's going to lose his grip (on top of getting a large portion of his body erased by the strike- maybe his hand will stay on it but the rest of him won't so that doesn't seem to do him any good), meaning there will be no pulling out a spike and stabbing her.



> yes Ei said she was getting sloppy . She however hasn't shown to be more agile than Hidan . He is the faster of the 2 with better range .



What exactly has Hidan done that makes him more agile than Tsunade?



> Hidan is massively weak against the likes of gaara but I find it odd when people forget kakuzu himself admitted he cannot kill Hidan.



He also said he was stronger than Hidan was.

Shikamaru blasted Hidan to pieces, but he didn't kill him. Kakuzu admitting that he couldn't kill the guy doesn't mean he couldn't _beat_ him.



> It means he can tank domu attacks , Gian , zukoku and Atsugi



In the sense that he can survive them, maybe. It doesn't mean that he can take those attacks and receive no damage, though.



> A casual jump should save anyone from it.



It won't save the circle, since it can't jump.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 20, 2015)

You're forgetting the circle's acrobatic feats.



Notice how it jumps so quickly it leaves afterimages.  We haven't seen this kind of advanced movement since Part I's hot Jyuuken on Jyuuken action.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 20, 2015)

Tsunade is instantly more agile that Hidan considering she can actually hit Madara's Susanoo clones despite her battle style getting sloppy.


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## Bonly (Jan 21, 2015)

> a bunch of shit nobody care about



I'm not doing this anymore. As I have already showed you Madara's Susanoo started to melt after being hit by quite a bit of Yoton, hell Madara even went and upgraded his Susanoo from just a rib cage to a V2 Susanoo. If you wanna act ignorant and act like Yoton can't or hasn't done anything to Susanoo(when it's canon fact that it can/has) all because it doesn't do so on the first shot then go ahead and live in denial. It's clear you don't wanna give Mei and her jutsu the credit they deserve so I'm done talking about this with you after this post  



> Mei acid hit sasuke arm and burnt it. its not like the second acid hits hidan he will turn to a pool of blood. It will progressively burn him. Easy for him to run through it and use his immortal body to his advantage. Get her blood then start his curse.



Then prove Hidan can run through the mist constantly melting him when he doesn't have a defense like Susanoo and still land a blow to get some of her blood and then also start the curse and then hurt her before  



> Melting progressively susanoo rib cage in an enclosed space is not the same as melting a person coming at you in a wide area. Just saying.



Hidan has to get within a few feet of her to hit and if she has the mist up(which she can control the PH level) then he's gonna be fucked like Susanoo in an enclosed space.



> Once again hidan will not instantly melt, he can use that to his advantage. And attack her while taking on her attacks.



Then prove he can.



> The same way if it were tsunade she will take them on regen and kill Mei,



Hidan isn't Tsunade who has instant regen going for him.



> or orochimaru takes them on and spits out a new body,



He spits out a new body inside the mist and guess what happens? That new body starts to melt yet again.



> or danzo can simply run at her with izanagi. die and keep running.



After he dies he has to respawn outside the mist or he'd respawn inside the mist and start to die all over again and unless you can prove that Danzo has the resilient feats to keep on running, I have no reason to assume he'll keep on running as if nothing is going on



> The immortality thing has perks people seem to be ignoring



Hidan's immortality doesn't give him the perks of those listed above which you seem to be ignoring.


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Fair enough.
> How would you determine the amount of chakra the living Mu for example may have?


There's no way you can be certain about the total amount of chakra living muu had, but you could use arguments like he was unable to even use jinton after splitting, or the fact that he's never stated or implied to have been a chakra beast, or that he's on trollkage's general level. 



Hussain said:


> Not true at all. Would you say Hashirama was not able to defeat Kakuzu because Kakuzu was alive? Or that he never defeated Madara because Madara is alive? Or Madara never defeated the 5 kages, or Mu and Onoki because they are alive? Or itachi never defeated Oro...etc
> The obvious answer is no. Defeating someone does not mean killing him. Naruto never killed anyone either, that does not mean he never won.


Hashirama fought kakuzu 1 time.... under unknown circumstances.  Minato fought Bee and Ei many times, and unlike Bee and Ei, Kakuzu has a way to feign death.  He defeated madara because we saw him defeat madara, and he was explicitly stated to be stronger than madara.....
Madara defeated the five kages and left them for dead on panel...

All of these instances you're bringing up are irrelevant, you're basically saying "unless you can prove your argument with 100% certainty, then your argument is worthless" which is absolutely false as nothing can be proven at that standard.  When we saw minato fight bee and Ei, he went straight for the kill against both of them, he has given us no reason to believe he'd beat them and just let them go, and he wasn't even able to cronically wound either of them something sasuke accomplished against Ei in his first fight.  Evidence says minato didn't thrash them or beat them.  Does it NECESSARILY say that?  No, but does it NECESSARILY say he did?  No again.  Evaluate your arguments by the same standards you impose on the other person.



Hussain said:


> The *obvious* point is "hype" alone does not cut it. People most of the time need to actually "see". As simple as that, Minato is only an example.
> 
> If you do not like him as an example, you have Hiruzen. It is stated that he has all the jutsus in konoha and can use them. How many time did you come across people that willing to accept that and use it in a debate?


If you only have hype, then hype alone HAS to cut it since that's all the evidence you have to create an argument and therefore the only thing you can use to evaluate a character is their hype.  

Hiruzen can't LITERALLY use all the jutsu in konoha as he doesn't possess the bloodline limits of the clans that are necessary in order to use said jutsu....  So the negative evidence would disable him from using certain jutsu, however if there's no negative evidence about him using a jutsu, then he'd have the ability to use said jutsu.



Hussain said:


> Again, he is an example for God Sake since he actually have the hype.
> Other than Minato, you have Darui for example, and there was a thread about Darui Vs Asuma.
> People claim that Darui was at a disadvantage in term of COC because Asuma uses Wind Element.
> But when I brought the Databook to them, they did not accept it, or actually use it because of the lack of "feat"


That totally depends on what you were arguing darui has.




Hussain said:


> Is that why people think that Hiruzen has a greater jutsu than the Buddha because it was stated that he is the strongest of all the 4 Hokages? Hiruzen even showed the ability to cut the Tree's wood, but that did not stop people of saying that the Tree is weaker than Hashirama.


Don't waste my time.  It was also stated that only a person with a sharingan can beat itachi.  And are you actually suggesting that a tiny branch from the shinjuu = the entire shinjuu?

Seriously don't waste my time.  If you're interested in having a legitimate discussion, i'm all ears, but when you bring up stuff like this it just tells me that you're not interested in what's true, rather you're interested in pushing a point regardless if it's true or not.




Hussain said:


> Precisely. Which is why "hype" does not always cut it. This the whole point I am trying to make.


....yet if hype is all you have to work with, then that's all you can use.  



Hussain said:


> Which is again why I said seeing the characters actually fight rather than making their battles off-panel is what makes us able to know better about their full power. Which is why I also do not think
> we can know the full power for X character.
> 
> Which is why I mentioned earlier (not with you probably) that I believe Kishi never showed us the full power of most of the Kages. Except perhaps for some selective few that were shown in a lot of chapters.


....okay?  Sure it would be NICE to have more information, but if we're given a limited amount of information, we have to make due with that limited amount of information.  We can't just abuse the fact that there are unknowns in order to bolster whoever we want however high we want them to be.  No versus thread has ever given the 100% full story, there are always factors that we can't know and don't go over.



Hussain said:


> @Bold.
> That also depends on the character's condition. For example, we were told that Hiruzen is much weaker than he was in his prime. We know his Edo self is even weaker than his living self. And he has enormous hype. For example, Hashirama Edo self in part 1 was pathatic compare to his living self, and he got massively stronger than his previously showing abilities (part 1)


Sure, hiruzen being stated to be much weaker than in his prime or hashirama being pathetic compared to his living self are both positive arguments that can be made for them being much stronger, but if that kind of evidence is lacking then giving them these massive buffs would be unwarranted.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 21, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I seriously doubt it was because he wasn't smart enough to do it _were it feasible for them_.
> 
> Shikamaru would have also known that they lacked any powers that could break apart the ground itself- _Katon: Haisekishō_ boasts the most explosive power of any technique that team has used, and even it did pretty much nothing to the ground.
> 
> ...



hidan sycthe is very much attached to him via the rope. get that straight. i dont see why her pullign it automatically mean he will loose grip. 

tsunade punched orochimaru straight in the jaw. his head dint come off. I dont know why any portion of hidan body will come off because he is hit by tsunade. 

My point is shikamaru at the start of battle didnt automatically think, he formed a seal lets try to get rid of it. he didnt even consider it much of a treat till he knew what it was for. I see no reason for tsunade to attack a seal if hidan isnt close to it or not using it. 

hidan avoided shikamaru shadow skewing technique while battling asuma. what has tsunade done that would make her agile. Outside dashing in a straight line and hitting madara who was camping in susanoo she barely has any speed feats to begin with. Agility also has to do with hidan acrobatic movements. 

Believe me no part of me is saying hidan can take any attack and receive no damage. what i am saying is tsunade punching him wont blast him to bits. he will be sent flying, bones broken. Then he gets up since broken bones shouldnt exactly stop someone who is going to heal. He lost his head and simply sewing it back was enough. tsunade for all her regen can reattach her head. 

People really dont get that so long as his legs are turned to ash and he can use them he is just going to keep coming.


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Thank God Gai does not have a jutsu that would cut him into pieces I suppose.



He has Hidan's Scythe .

Or Kunais, Kunais have shown the be effective at cutting Hidan.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 21, 2015)

true. lol he can just grab hidan sycthe or even easier hidan would just give it to him. 
Why fight gai awesomeness ???


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 21, 2015)

There are two choices:

1) Gai dodges the scythe with superior speed and skill, grabs his arm, kicks his neck from behind, throwing him to the floor and taking the scythe off from him.

2) Hidan gives it to him.

His choice .


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 21, 2015)

I think hidan will go with choice 2. Like i said gai is too awesome. 

Gai may just come at hidan walking on his hands to throw hidan off.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> hidan sycthe is very much attached to him via the rope.



Is he not just holding the rope?

Even if it's wrapped around his arm or something it isn't an actual appendage of his like Orochimaru's tongue. If he takes the force of one of Tsunade's shots and gets blasted back while she's still got the thing in her other hand (which is again far stronger than his own), he won't be keeping the scythe, let alone pulling out a blade to stab her with.



> tsunade punched orochimaru straight in the jaw. his head dint come off. I dont know why any portion of hidan body will come off because he is hit by tsunade.



_*1.) *_Orochimaru is more durable than Hidan, especially in regards to blunt force.

Also, notice how Orochimaru's head is angled in that panel in relation to his shoulders. That's clearly an abnormal position, and we know he was utilizing Nan no Kaizō due to the elongated tongue, so what saved him was his exceedingly elastic body; had that been just anyone, their head would have been snapped off (just another reason such a high elasticity is great for absorbing blunt force trauma in particular). Hidan has no such elastic properties.

*2.) *That was Part 1 Tsunade- extremely rusty, out of shape, and at that point fatigued Tsunade. She got back into the swing of things by Part 2.

The reason as to why a large portion of Hidan's body should be blown off is that she blew off a large enough portion of Madara's body that she was even able to _fly through it_. Trying to say "but that was a clone" doesn't work to discredit anything, because every single Kage saw that happen and not a one became suspicious in spite of being aware that Madara was earlier able to take Ay's shots without so much as a bruise to his arm, meaning that either way you look at it the message that Tsunade just plain hits like a freaking meteorite, and such injury is subsequently simply to be expected, is very clear.



> My point is shikamaru at the start of battle didnt automatically think, he formed a seal lets try to get rid of it.



And my point is that it isn't because he couldn't, it's because he wouldn't. The option to destroy the seal is not even available to him because that team didn't have any techniques in its arsenal to break it up with, so it isn't something he would be considering. Tsunade has the option to break it apart, though, and it's not exactly an option she only uses as a last resort.

Also, it is heavily implied that he didn't even really get to analyzing until much later in the fight because he was so freaked out due to Asuma's nervousness rubbing off on him. Yet another card not stacked in his favor that is stacked in Tsunade's.



> I see no reason for tsunade to attack a seal if hidan isnt close to it or not using it.



Reason 1: She doesn't know what it is.

Reason 2: So that he can't use it in the near future.

It's more risky to simply leave it alone than it is to get rid of it, especially when getting rid of it will be so easy a thing for her to do. That's all the incentive she should need.



> hidan avoided shikamaru shadow skewing technique while battling asuma.



He did a backflip while throwing something.

_That_ _doesn't_ _make_ _him_ _more_ _agile_ _than_ _Tsunade_.



> Agility also has to do with hidan acrobatic movements.



Agility is about more than being able to do a backflip over some shadows while throwing a weapon:



> agile |ˈajəl| adjective
> able to move quickly _*and*_ easily:





> Believe me no part of me is saying hidan can take any attack and receive no damage. what i am saying is tsunade punching him wont blast him to bits. he will be sent flying, bones broken.



Atsugai's best feats are blowing up dying, dried out, hollow trees that he can kick Kakashi through without Doton: Domu even activated (and without Kakashi even sustaining noticeable damage).

The best feats of Tsunade's strikes are shattering a ribcage Susano'o that Raikage's chops couldn't break into despite nearly breaking Sasuke's neck through his (which was itself able to withstand and protect Sasuke from Liger Bomb and a regular punch of Ay's).

Tanking the former does not equate to staying intact after getting struck by the latter. _At all._



> People really dont get that so long as his legs are turned to ash and he can use them he is just going to keep coming.



Hidan's legs weren't turned to ashes when he got decapitated, and yet he was apparently still needing assistance retrieving his own head. If he gets blown to bits he's not putting himself back together any time soon, and he actually can die of malnutrition iirc.


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## Icegaze (Jan 22, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Is he not just holding the rope?
> 
> Even if it's wrapped around his arm or something it isn't an actual appendage of his like Orochimaru's tongue. If he takes the force of one of Tsunade's shots and gets blasted back while she's still got the thing in her other hand (which is again far stronger than his own), he won't be keeping the scythe, let alone pulling out a blade to stab her with.
> 
> ...



No he isnt just holding the rope. Thats why i said its attached to him

what i am suggesting is when she drags him with it before she can punch him he pulls out a spike and stabs her while coming towards her with the speed she is pulling him with 

Sorry you have no proof orochimaru is more durable than hidan especially with blunt force. He can regen for sure, but he doesnt have super human durability. Why assume he is more durable?

No basis or proof to suggest she can punch a persons head off. give me actual feats. cuz till then all her punch will do is send hidan flying. Hidan is pretty much like wolverine. she can break his bones he will snap them back into place and keep it moving 

You would have to prove she could hit harder in part 2. being rusty affects her stamina not her ability to hit someone really hard 

Assumption again you are making about tsunade striking force. It was a clone, a clone is meant to trick so the fact that they didnt figure it was a clone is because they were fooled. that doesnt put a clone durability anywhere near the original. against kimi and naruto. kimi barely touched some of them and they simply puffed away. 

Tsunade will only target the seal after she knows what it does. who hits a seal on the floor. she could very well assume its a seal to stop her movement like chiyo seal. She might not want to come anywhere near it. 

 obviously if hidan is headless he cant control his body. However tsunade lacks utterly the ability to make him headless. she could also loose her head to while fighting him 

blunt force so far in this manga has yet to decapitate anyone. Double lariat used by 2 kage level shinobi with the right timing and force so far is the only thing shown to remove a person head. Assuming tsunade can simply punch his head off is BS to the highest order 

Again no reason to assume tsunade can kill him with a punch or blow him apart with 1.  her punch has less force than hirudora which utterly failed to blow kisame apart yet it did after all break susanoo level 3. 

so sorry but being able to punch rib cage does nothign to suggest she can break hidan with a punch.


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## GearsUp (Jan 22, 2015)

if they know an S rank jutsu and have a 5 in a meaningful stat


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## Veracity (Jan 22, 2015)

IceGaze.... What makes you believe Hidan > Madara in durabilty ?


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## Icegaze (Jan 23, 2015)

like boss what makes you believe madara>hidan in durability

when only the latter is actually immortal and the former normally isnt


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## Veracity (Jan 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> like boss what makes you believe madara>hidan in durability
> 
> when only the latter is actually immortal and the former normally isnt



Being immortal doesn't make you durable at all. Hidan > 3rd Raikage because he's immortal?

No the difference is Madara has superior feats to Hidan in Durabilty. Hidan gets reduced to chunks by explosive tags, While a powerhouse like ay can't even leave a scratch on Madara, or Madara can arrive at the scene so dynamic that he creates craters without receiving any damage: Tsunade


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## Icegaze (Jan 23, 2015)

Please highlight one of these superior durablity feats of madara i beg of you please show me. 
Ay punched madara madara blocked. Are you assuming if A punches hidan his hands will break??

despite no proof of such 

Yh madara jumped and landed and made a crater big whoop. if those are your examples stop arguing now 

they are weak 

Ay is more durable than hidan so are several people all of them have unusual abilities or superhuman bodies that make them so. madara isnt one of them. 

I can say itachi kicked genin sasuke into a wall he made a crater therefore genin sasuke is more durable than hidan. Since you know him being reduced to chucks due to being tie wrapped to explosive tags is the same as jumping and puffing up smoke

kishi very directly stated hidan and kakuzu could fight the way they do because hidan is immortal. That doesnt mean he is more durable than all mortals however. what it does mean is kakuzu techs hitting him head on apparently dont do shit to him. As far as hype is concerned hidan durability clearly surpasses madara


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## Veracity (Jan 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Please highlight one of these superior durablity feats of madara i beg of you please show me.
> Ay punched madara madara blocked. Are you assuming if A punches hidan his hands will break??
> 
> despite no proof of such
> ...



You mean the 2 feats I already provided ?

You realize Ay cracks bones of sasukes Sussano with chops, yet you believe Hidans arms won't be snapped in half by a good hit? The burden of proof is now on you to provide evidence that Hidan> Sasukes ribcage and that Ay won't cause Hidan severe damage with casual blows. 

Most Shinobi who take the amount of force to create a crater that deep, are usually severely injured by the blow. Not only was the crater significantly larger then the one Sasuke was kicked into , but Sasuke received  damage, while Madara landed casually .

Whether Kishi explicitly says it or not , Madara clearly has a super body via feats. Overwhelming sage Naruto , and taking blows from a Raikage put him at a high level .

Hidans durabilty isn't impressive at all being honest. Having the ability to fight no matter how severe the wound is , is what makes him impressive . Not falling prey to blood loss, blood clots, and his system shutting down is what's impressive. He in general doesn't have many impressive feats, and the burden of proof is on you to prove his feats supersede Madara's which you failed to do . Surviving a petty ass Futton by Kakuzu isn't cutting it. Madara can survive a liger Bomb while Hidan is reduced to pieces by explosive tags .


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## Icegaze (Jan 23, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> You mean the 2 feats I already provided ?
> 
> You realize Ay cracks bones of sasukes Sussano with chops, yet you believe Hidans arms won't be snapped in half by a good hit? The burden of proof is now on you to provide evidence that Hidan> Sasukes ribcage and that Ay won't cause Hidan severe damage with casual blows.
> 
> ...



He failed to crack madara arms that's my proof . Madara was never stated to have anytbinf beyond normal human durability . Jugo was hit twice no broken jones so I guess then that Jugo is more durable than rib cage susanoo then . I dust know that thank you . Guess base bee is to as well seeing the punch he casually brushed off from Jugo which did far more AoE damage than Ei punches. 

Hidan tanked kakuzu Katon with no damage let's not disregard that considering kakuzu clearly stated if Kakashi were hit he would have died


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## Veracity (Jan 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> He failed to crack madara arms that's my proof . Madara was never stated to have anytbinf beyond normal human durability . Jugo was hit twice no broken jones so I guess then that Jugo is more durable than rib cage susanoo then . I dust know that thank you . Guess base bee is to as well seeing the punch he casually brushed off from Jugo which did far more AoE damage than Ei punches.
> 
> Hidan tanked kakuzu Katon with no damage let's not disregard that considering kakuzu clearly stated if Kakashi were hit he would have died



That's no proof at all ? That only proves that Madara > Sasukes ribcage. And yeah that's what feats indicate.

You mean when jugo manifests a shield in front of himself and ay completely punches through the shield, slams Jugo into a wall and punches a hole in his body?: Tsunade

Or when he elbows him into a wall completely knocking him out of his amped state and unconscious in a crater in the wall?: Tsunade
Considering the first punch went through a shield and Jugo, and the second knocked him out for the majority of the battle (even though Jugo has insane durabilty and resilience), it's likely he had broken bones and massive internal damage. 

Bee is a tank, seeing as he brushes off Lariats casually. & AoE is beyond inconsistent in this manga. Where Kisames full swing fails to break through wood, and Shouten Kisame created building sized water splashes with his arm .

Show me the panel where Hidan tanked his Katon ?

Except Kakashi has shit tiered Durabilty. Who cares ?


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## FlamingRain (Jan 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Nwhat i am suggesting is when she drags him with it before she can punch him he pulls out a spike and stabs her while coming towards her with the speed she is pulling him with



I already know what you're suggesting, it's just that your suggestion is also horribly wrong.

Look here, Orochimaru (who possesses a 4.5 in comparison to Hidan's 3.5) fought a _far weaker_ Tsunade and yet she jerked him _all the way up to the top of Gamabunta's *building sized*_ tantō _faster than_ he could do anything about it. He didn't even get to spit the Kusanagi out at her before he came into contact with her fist, and that's a lot more fluid of a motion than Hidan trying to grab onto this scythe's blade, pull it out, and then cut Tsunade with it.

Thinking about it, if Hidan threw the scythe at her like he did Asuma and Tsunade grabbed it, shouldn't the spikes be _behind_ Tsunade? How is he going to reach around her and grab a spike to stab her with _before_ she punches him? She'll be able to punch him before he can even reach the scythe.



> Sorry you have no proof orochimaru is more durable than hidan especially with blunt force.



He got clawed in the face by Tailed Chakra Shroud Naruto and propelled several hundred meters through the forest of trees that are actually alive and not hollow, only to walk out with a smirk on his face when only his mask was ripped by it. That was a force concentrated into an area the size of Naruto's fist as opposed to spread out in a giant wave of air, too, so the feat is much more impressive than tanking Atsugai.

As for blunt force especially:

When something is especially elastic it shifts to accommodate the impact of the object hitting it- it can be moulded around it to an extent and then resume its regular shape following that without issue. That's where the especially high durability in regards to blunt force stems from. Hidan has a normal body that can simply continue functioning even after typically necessary structures are damaged, Orochimaru can make his body far more elastic than an anatomically regular human.



> You would have to prove she could hit harder in part 2. being rusty affects her stamina not her ability to hit someone really hard



When people get out of shape for even a couple of weeks to a month, they don't only lose stamina, their strength diminishes as well (in addition to speed, among other things such as finesse). Tsunade went two decades without practice. _Two. Decades._

We saw the damage Tsunade did to the ground in Part 1. Compare it to Ay's Liger Bomb, and then notice that Liger Bomb _didn't_ break Sasuke's Susano'o open, Ay went and punched it and did nothing, then he chopped it and went right through.

He used this same chop on Madara's Susano'o after it had been sitting in Mei's lava, and yet did not do a thing to it. Then Tsunade comes along and punches a dent in it while cracking the rest of the entire side, and when she later kicks it she cracks the thing wide open and makes it disappear.

So yeah, she hits _way_ harder in Part 2. That should have been common sense, but alas...



> Assumption again you are making about tsunade striking force. It was a clone, a clone is meant to trick so the fact that they didnt figure it was a clone is because they were fooled.



I already explained why its irrelevant whether or not it was a clone.

>The Kage already knew the real Madara could tank Ay's shots, meaning they know how durable Madara is.

>The Kage already saw Tsunade demonstrate her strength on Susano'o, meaning they know how just how strong Tsunade is.

>The Kage saw her blow a hole in "Madara" and fly through it before they ever tried sealing him.

If Tsunade weren't capable of actually blowing a hole in Madara, then every single one of them should have known something was wrong- it would have failed to trick them because they'd have all gone "Wait a second how did that happen? That shouldn't have just happened.". However, the fact of the matter is that they didn't, they apparently found nothing out of line with that even knowing Tsunade's power and Madara's durability. The very fact that it actually managed to trick them necessitates that they thought if Tsunade hit the real Madara like she hit Susano'o she'd bust a hole in him just like she did there.

Subsituting with clones only works by stuff happening to them _looking believable_; there can't be anything so obviously inconsistent about it in order for it to work- if something so different would have happened to the real Madara then they would have never been duped like that.

Unless you want to tell me that the Five Kage are all retarded…?



> Tsunade will only target the seal after she knows what it does. who hits a seal on the floor. she could very well assume its a seal to stop her movement like chiyo seal.



Assuming it's a seal to stop her movement is just that much more of a reason to stamp the ground and break it apart with a fissure. Why leave it there and run the risk of inadvertently stepping on it later when you don't have to?

That just does not make any kind of sense. You are trying to make Tsunade stupid just so Hidan can use his Jutsu.



> She might not want to come anywhere near it.



Well then it's a good thing she doesn't freaking have to, since she can bust the ground itself like glass.



> blunt force so far in this manga has yet to decapitate anyone.



Again, if Orochimru's body weren't so abnormally flexible his head would have been knocked right off, because the position Tsunade's fist put it in compared to his shoulders is not anatomically feasible for regular people. Hidan doesn't have any special properties of abnormal flexibility, he just survives things normal people wouldn't in spite of the injury itself, so if she punched him in the head that thing would fly.

And also again, if Part 2 Tsunade can erase people's torsos, _and it has been demonstrated that she can_, then she can obviously erase their heads.



> her punch has less force than hirudora which utterly failed to blow kisame apart yet it did after all break susanoo level 3.



I'm pretty sure that Hirudora is not a technique meant to outright blow objects apart, it's meant to rattle whatever gets caught in its gigantic area-of-effect up until it causes severe internal injury. That's why when Kisame got hit by it he didn't look too different than Mukade did after getting hit by Asakujaku.

Hirudora picked Susano'o up and carried it off panel; there's no reason to assume it actually broke a higher-leveled Susano'o because it was not seen doing such and Kisame has been damaged by attacks that bounce right off of _ribcage_ Susano'o (such as Gai's regular punches, Kunai, Samehada spines, electrified pencils, etc.). The fact that it didn't kill Kisame should tell you how nonsensical the idea that it somehow broke Susano'o is.


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## iJutsu (Jan 23, 2015)

High kage level = bitchslapping a bijuu by themselves. They don't need fancy jutsu to do it.


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## Icegaze (Jan 24, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> That's no proof at all ? That only proves that Madara > Sasukes ribcage. And yeah that's what feats indicate.
> 
> You mean when jugo manifests a shield in front of himself and ay completely punches through the shield, slams Jugo into a wall and punches a hole in his body?: Link removed
> 
> ...



madara is more durable than ribcage susanoo ??? 
so if gaara uses the sand drizzle attack he used on blind madara i guess what you are saying is the sand drizzle will go through rib cage??

or wait even better. madara is more durable than rib cage susanoo. SO I GUESS YOU MEAN madara can tank Mei lava with his own body. Wow  i did not know that

no madara isnt in anyway more durable than rib cage susanoo. 

No broken bones were mentioned about jugo but nice try. making stuff up. I am liking your fanfic 

hidan tanked asuma katon and tanks of all kakuzu attacks. thats the basis of their combination techniques. This is very old news. 

I never did know madara could tank lava though, with his body and all. Wow !!!  

kishi clearly had 2 people state hidan is a tank because he is immortal and kakuzu is taking advantage of that to attack hidan without giving a shit. 

Wait i got one this one is funny. hirudora can be claimed to have broken through susanoo V3. yet it fails to punch a hole in kisame??/
i bet kisame is more durable, ooops but wait. kisame has already had his skin breached by a kunai thrown from fodder aoba. 

does that put the kunai above hirudora???

sasuke rib cage could simply not be able to take Ei punch. that doesnt suddenly mean anything which can is more durable. dont be stupid

@flamming. Ok you are a good boy. till you can show proof of anyone punching a person ( and i do mean a person) then you have zero basis to claim tsunade can punch holes in hidan.


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## Mercurial (Jan 24, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Except Kakashi has shit tiered Durabilty. Who cares ?



Kakashi tanked like nothing a surprise Domu-enhanced kick from Kakuzu that send him flying for metres away, breaking some giant trees in the impact. Mind that a Domu enhanced punch could break a giant iron door with ease, and kicks are stronger than punches. He tanked two Shinra Tensei, and didn't lose consciousness even from the third, while Choza (one who could jump in between Asuma' Katon ash ninjutsu tanking it like a boss) did. Kakashi also fought a lot of times with wounds and injuries without his performance being hindered, like against Zabuza, Pain and Obito.

Excuse me. There are definitely tougher characters, but shit tiered durability? I dunno. I dunno.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @flamming. Ok you are a good boy. till you can show proof of anyone punching a person ( and i do mean a person) then you have zero basis to claim tsunade can punch holes in hidan.



I have repeatedly pointed out the basis we have for claiming that Tsunade can punch holes in Hidan. Tsunade's strength is just so ridiculous that if you haven't been shown to tank attacks on the level of her hits you aren't just assumed to be able to because the vast majority of ninja clearly cannot. The Kage knew Madara was a tank and yet they found nothing wrong with Tsunade going and blowing a hole in him, so at this point it's up to you to show that Hidan would not get a hole blown in him, because we have every reason to believe otherwise until you do.



Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi tanked like nothing a surprise Domu-enhanced kick from Kakuzu that send him flying for metres away, breaking some giant trees in the impact.



He didn't?

The Domu ability had been deactivated when Kakashi first landed Raikiri.

He also hit _one_ giant tree. One _dried up, apparently dead, and hollow tree_.



> Kakashi also fought a lot of times with wounds and injuries without his performance being hindered, like against Zabuza, Pain and Obito.



That would be resilience*. We're specifically talking about durability.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 24, 2015)

It's impossible to use Domu without the Earth heart Kakashi killed...


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## Veracity (Jan 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> madara is more durable than ribcage susanoo ???
> so if gaara uses the sand drizzle attack he used on blind madara i guess what you are saying is the sand drizzle will go through rib cage??
> 
> or wait even better. madara is more durable than rib cage susanoo. SO I GUESS YOU MEAN madara can tank Mei lava with his own body. Wow  i did not know that
> ...



In the form of blunt forced attacks yeah. Madara has panel feats of taking more damage then SASUKES Sussano. Gaara's drizzle attack is a piercing technique, which is much different . Madara ain't durable against piercing attacks at all.

Except for thats a corroding effect, which is going to effect actual skin tissue more the a chakra manifested solid object. I didn't think I'd actually have to slowly break this down to you like this . Based on the examples I presented, it's pretty fucking easy to comprehend that I meant blunt force damage. & now that I really think about it, I wouldn't place Madara above the ribcage but on the same level. Which is still vastly more impressive then Hidan who gets reduced to meat by explosive tags lol.

Does Kishi have to hold our hands and walk through the entire manga with us ? He doesnt have to directly say something for it to be obvious. Jugo had a hole in his body. Which automatically implies internal damage and broken bones were given . Then after this, Jugo had the resilience to continue attacking Raikage.... Then Ay's second attack was strong enough to supersede the damage of the first attack and knock him completely unconscious, which means it had to have broken bones....

If it's the basis of the technique then it should be hard for you to provide panels... So I'm still waiting .

Except the attacks Kakuzu was firing at Kakashi and Hidan weren't impressive to begin with? The only reason they would have killed Kakashi is because he would succumbed to the damage unlike Hidan who is immortal and doesn't succumb to damage at all; unless it handicaps him lol.

Except FlamingRain rain already destroyed this argument above. AT never destroyed Madara Sussano on panel therefore you cannot claim it destroyed anything. Kisame gets his torso erased by Lariats, and is cut up by Kunai. You cannot compare his durabilty to a V3 Susaano. Therefore the Sussano was most likely never broken.

Except a kunai throw doesn't equal the same type of damage AT inflicts. If Ay's punch doesn't damage Madara, but it damages sasuke then it's clear who has more blunt force durability considering it's the EXACT same attack. 

@Raikiri

The first example you posted is incorrect and I'm pretty sure you found that out. 

The second is a matter of the amount of force pain applies to his push, which varies massively. 

And the third is outright resilience and not durability so..?


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## Trojan (Jan 24, 2015)

Minato's durability > Madara's.  
based on feats. 

anyway, there is no point of debating the kage's level (or other character's)
Yagura for example only used 2 jutsu on panel. I really doubt he became the Mizukage for having those 2 jutsu. Lol


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## IchLiebe (Jan 24, 2015)

Madara got tail slapped by 9 bijuu and wasn't crushed to death. He got fucked up and lost an arm but was still intact.


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## Trojan (Jan 24, 2015)

Yeah, but he was cut in half by Lee's kick. Minato got JJ SM Madara's kick and that did not happen to him. Just sayin'.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Yeah, but he was cut in half by Lee's kick. Minato got JJ SM Madara's kick and that did not happen to him. Just sayin'.



Lee pulled a fucking tree root bigger than my body, and I'm a grown man, out of the ground in part 1. He had Naruto's kyuubi cloak on which made him 3 times powerful. I can see him doing the same to Minato. What strength feats does Juubi jin Madara have? Kicking Minato a few feet? Lee walks around with hundreds of pounds on his legs for training. Minato's durabilty is not as good as Madara.


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 24, 2015)

Whatever makes them a jounin, plus another element, tons of experience, intellect and lots of jutsu.


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## Trojan (Jan 24, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> Lee pulled a fucking tree root bigger than my body, and I'm a grown man, out of the ground in part 1. He had Naruto's kyuubi cloak on which made him 3 times powerful. I can see him doing the same to Minato. What strength feats does Juubi jin Madara have? Kicking Minato a few feet? Lee walks around with hundreds of pounds on his legs for training. Minato's durabilty is not as good as Madara.



So you think a little of Kurama's chakra is superior to the Juubi's power + SM power?


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## IchLiebe (Jan 24, 2015)

Proof that Minato took stronger hits than Madara? Tanking a kick from someone with no strength feats, nor hype for strength means shit.


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## Trojan (Jan 24, 2015)

Proof that Madara took a stronger hit than Minato?

Obito stated that he had the Sage's body, and he was able to destroy Sasuke's Susanoo with his pure hand.
Madara is even stronger. It's irrational to think Lee's taijutsu is superior to SM taijutsu with the Juubi's power. lol

Yeah, the same guy who knocked down the Bijuus, and the one you just stated that he took the Bijuu's hits.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Proof that Madara took a stronger hit than Minato?



9 bijuu tail whipping him>anything Minato's took. Minato got pierced by 9 tails claw. Madara got crushed by 9 bijuu and only lost an arm and was still ready to fight.



> Obito stated that he had the Sage's body, and he was able to destroy Sasuke's Susanoo with his pure hand.



He used onmyouton to destroy the susanoo. Obito never showed to be physically strong.



> Madara is even stronger. It's irrational to think Lee's taijutsu is superior to SM taijutsu with the Juubi's power. lol



Gai kicked a hole through SM JJ Madara, I wouldn't underestimate their taijutsu.



> Yeah, the same guy who knocked down the Bijuus, and the one you just stated that he took the Bijuu's hits.



He didn't knock down shit. He sealed them with a jutsu. He didn't do shit physically.


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## Trojan (Jan 24, 2015)

> =IchLiebe;52753354]9 bijuu tail whipping him>anything Minato's took. Minato got pierced by 9 tails claw. Madara got crushed by 9 bijuu and only lost an arm and was still ready to fight.


Juubi's jost >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything the Bijuu did.
Also, Kishi did not make any of the Bijuu attack with any chark thing. The only one was Gaara and he cut through Madara's body with the sand. 


> He used onmyouton to destroy the susanoo. Obito never showed to be physically strong.


No, when he grabbed Sasuke from his face, it was by his hand. When Minato saved them. 



> Gai kicked a hole through SM JJ Madara, I wouldn't underestimate their taijutsu.


only with the Night Gai. 


> He didn't knock down shit. He sealed them with a jutsu. He didn't do shit physically.


The Limbo. 

but anyway, as you wish. We will probably agree to disagree, so there is no point of going on.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Juubi's jost >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything the Bijuu did.
> Also, Kishi did not make any of the Bijuu attack with any chark thing. The only one was Gaara and he cut through Madara's body with the sand.



They all tail whipped him, destroyed susanoo, and still failed to kill him or stop him.



> No, when he grabbed Sasuke from his face, it was by his hand. When Minato saved them.



Again, onmyouton. Obito kicked Minato and again nothing happened like Madara's kick. 



> only with the Night Gai.



With _taijutsu_.



> The Limbo.



You mean ninjutsu, we're talking kicking aka taijutsu.



> but anyway, as you wish. We will probably agree to disagree, so there is no point of going on.



No point in arguing when you know you're wrong.


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## Trojan (Jan 24, 2015)

> You mean ninjutsu, we're talking kicking aka taijutsu.


The Limbo attacks with Taijutsu, as when it punched Naruto. 



> No point in arguing when you know you're wrong.


you think so?


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## SSMG (Jan 24, 2015)

Hussain.. Lees kick against madara was powered by kurama cloaked guy kicking Lee giving him more momentum thus givingvhim more force. But there's no basis is comparing juubitos kick to lees.


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## Trojan (Jan 24, 2015)

Madara's kick was powered by the Juubi and SM. 
Obito's kick was powered by the Juubi's power as well.

I don't know why people want to ignore that.


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## SSMG (Jan 24, 2015)

Hussain was that last comment if yours in response to my recent comment? If so why do you bring up madaras kick?


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## Icegaze (Jan 25, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> In the form of blunt forced attacks yeah. Madara has panel feats of taking more damage then SASUKES Sussano. Gaara's drizzle attack is a piercing technique, which is much different . Madara ain't durable against piercing attacks at all.
> 
> Except for thats a corroding effect, which is going to effect actual skin tissue more the a chakra manifested solid object. I didn't think I'd actually have to slowly break this down to you like this . Based on the examples I presented, it's pretty fucking easy to comprehend that I meant blunt force damage. & now that I really think about it, I wouldn't place Madara above the ribcage but on the same level. Which is still vastly more impressive then Hidan who gets reduced to meat by explosive tags lol.
> 
> ...



 
you would place madara durablity on the same level as rib cage susanoo. let me ask you what happens if someone takes a kunai at madara. it goes through him. 
what happens to rib cage. the kunai shatters

oh and if you mean blunt force, then why would you put them at the same level. didnt Ei break sasuke susanoo yet failed to break madara hands. That must put madara above sasuke rib cage correct. 

So i also take it orochimaru jaw is more durable than madara rib cage susanoo seeing that tsunade didnt punch his head out. 

anywayz its getting boring now. no proof from the manga tsunade is capable of punching holes in hidan therefore she cannot. if you want to think hidan is as durable as ino up to u. 
tsunade still cant punch holes


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## StarWanderer (Jan 25, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Minato's durability > Madara's.
> based on feats.
> 
> anyway, there is no point of debating the kage's level (or other character's)
> Yagura for example only used 2 jutsu on panel. I really doubt he became the Mizukage for having those 2 jutsu. Lol



Base Minato has no durability feats at all.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 25, 2015)

SSMG said:


> Hussain was that last comment if yours in response to my recent comment? If so why do you bring up madaras kick?



How many people here takes Hussain seriously? Just read his posts - completely unlogical nonsense. Almost all his posts can be taken as trolling attempts, to be honest.


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## Veracity (Jan 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> you would place madara durablity on the same level as rib cage susanoo. let me ask you what happens if someone takes a kunai at madara. it goes through him.
> what happens to rib cage. the kunai shatters
> 
> oh and if you mean blunt force, then why would you put them at the same level. didnt Ei break sasuke susanoo yet failed to break madara hands. That must put madara above sasuke rib cage correct.
> ...



Because Madara isn't durable against piercing attacks , like I've already explained in my previous post. Same way Oro gets cut up by Kunai but survives Tsuandes and Kurama cloaked Naruto punches.

The same level overall.

Part 1 Tsuande is <<<< to part 2 Tsuande. And Oro is elastic which lessens the damage inflicted by blunt force. Meaning any other type of damage would effect oro far more then ribcage. That's the difference.

Except there is proof. Even if Madara wasn't as durable as Hidan. We know Hidan is < to ribcage Sussano. And Tsuande punch obliterates ribcage sussano. Even if Madara and Hidan are close in durabilty. Tsuande punches Madara's body so hard that she can move through the massive hole in his body, meaning the same happens to Hidan.


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 26, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Yeah, but he was cut in half by Lee's kick. Minato got JJ SM Madara's kick and that did not happen to him. Just sayin'.


Lee had Gates + Kyuubi Cloak and Madara also stated he was taking advantage of the reanimation body as well.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 26, 2015)

> if you want to think hidan is as durable as ino up to u.



Don't compare that joker to the glory of Ino.  kthxbai  


*Spoiler*: __ 



:inovilla


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## heartsutra (Jan 26, 2015)

I think before we can answer the question "What makes a ninja high Kage level?", we ought to define what "high Kage level" means. As in, what is needed to become a Kage? Is it just combat skills? Nah, it must be more, right? Must the Kage be the strongest in their village?



Or do they "only" need to be approved by The Elders and the The Omniscient Council of Vagueness? And the Daimyo lol.


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## Icegaze (Jan 27, 2015)

Everyone has their definitions no doubt

However Gg techniques and the ability to use them easily put anyone at high kage

eg": onoki and minato


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