# Marco vs. Fujitora



## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 4, 2014)

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Dressrosa

After seeing Fuji's feats against Sabo, what's the consensus? 
I think it can go either way.


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## Kaiser (Oct 4, 2014)

It can actually go either way, but i'd give the benefit of doubt to Marco at the moment


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## Nekochako (Oct 4, 2014)

Fujitora should take this high-diff.


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## Sabox (Oct 4, 2014)

i think it will be HIGH-DIFF fujitora


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## trance (Oct 4, 2014)

IMO, Issho takes this with high/very high difficulty.


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## Urouge (Oct 4, 2014)

I'll always favour an admiral over a FM unless that FM is prime ray level. Fuji takes it very high


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 4, 2014)

Trance said:


> IMO, Issho takes this with high/very high difficulty.



I'll go with this


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## trance (Oct 4, 2014)

Urouge said:


> I'll always favour an admiral over a FM unless that FM is prime ray level. Fuji takes it very high



After a bout of not doing anything for 22 years and suffering the effects of old age where his stats naturally decrease, Rayleigh still performed remarkably well against Kizaru, managing to keep him completely at bay. I'd wager that Rayleigh at his best could beat guys stronger than the Admirals like Whitebeard.


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## rext1 (Oct 4, 2014)

As a general rule YONKO FM < Admiral.

So Fuji gets my vote, I think we can safely extrapolate top-tier stats + combat proficiency for any dude carrying the title of Admiral!

I think Fuji also has Marco more than outgunned in terms of offensive capabilities, so once the match begins I would expect him to dominate consistently. 
However I would still chalk this one up as a high diff victory for the tiger - simply owing to Marco's sheer resilience(via DF haxx)!!


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## Ruse (Oct 4, 2014)

Fujitora high diff


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## TheWiggian (Oct 4, 2014)

Fuji takes it high high diff vs Marco
Mid diff against Sabo


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## Canute87 (Oct 4, 2014)

Not sure the effect gravity has on marco in phoenix form.


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## Coruscation (Oct 4, 2014)

I have had them as equal until more was revealed but with recent events I am starting to believe Oda indeed wants us to see Fujitora in the same way as the original Admirals. That doesn't mean they are necessarily equal to the last hair but that they're put on the same pedestal and are very close to one another. I'm still not entirely sure if this puts him above Marco who also has extremely impressive credentials. I have Kizaru as above due to his position as a part of the original color trio and thus to Akainu who was portrayed clearly as a cut above the Phoenix, but Fujitora doesn't necessarily have the same connection to the man who is now Fleet Admiral. It yet remains to be seen whether he eventually gets enough to pin him as stronger than Marco (the way Marco is portrayed when/if he returns to the story will also factor in) but at least the door is half open after his extremely impressive demeanor against Sabo.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 4, 2014)

rext1 said:


> As a general rule YONKO FM < Admiral.
> 
> So Fuji gets my vote, I think we can safely extrapolate top-tier stats + combat proficiency for any dude carrying the title of Admiral!
> 
> ...


Agreed, unless the First Mate is Prime Rayleigh, I'd pick the Admiral over the Yonko First Mate anyday.


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## Luke (Oct 4, 2014)

I'll give it to Fujitora with high, possibly extreme, difficulty.


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## Shinthia (Oct 4, 2014)

Admiral > YFM is how thing are and is how things should be


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## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 4, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Admiral > YFM is how thing are and is how things should be


Unless it's Prime Rayleigh (or should we put Pirate King First Mates on a separate level from Yonko First Mates? ). Then it's another story.


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## Vengeance (Oct 4, 2014)

I still think all admirals - past or present - are stronger than Marco.
Fujitora's portrayal against Sabo somewhat reinforced that opinion for me.


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## Ether (Oct 4, 2014)

Vengeance said:


> I still think all admirals - past or present - are stronger than Marco.
> Fujitora's portrayal against Sabo somewhat reinforced that opinion of me.



Pretty much this.
I say Fuji can beat Marco solid high diff based on his feats and portrayal against Sabo.


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## The Bloody Nine (Oct 4, 2014)

Just so it doesnt seem liek a stomp in Fuji's favour ill say i think Marco wins with High. His Marineford feats really impressed me - i don't know why im the only one - and i think he could actually take Kizaru.


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## Shinthia (Oct 4, 2014)

Tea said:


> Unless it's Prime Rayleigh (or should we put Pirate King First Mates on a separate level from Yonko First Mates? ). Then it's another story.



Yes, Prime Ray is an exception like other legends in their prime. Their strength were abnormal.


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## Goomoonryong (Oct 4, 2014)

I've always put Fuji on the same level as the original trio. And since that's the case, Fuji wins high diff( maybe less since his DF would really hamper Marco's fighting style).


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## Sabox (Oct 4, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> Not sure the effect gravity has on marco in phoenix form.



fujitora attack managed to harm sabo even thought he was fire

so most likely marco will feel the same in his form


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## Dunno (Oct 4, 2014)

Fujitora ≈ Aokiji ≈ Akainu ≈ Kizaru > Marco. Now until forever.


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## Jellal Fernandes (Oct 4, 2014)

Dunno said:


> Fujitora ≈ Aokiji ≈ Akainu ≈ Kizaru > Marco. Now until forever.



Fuji is not equal to Akainu.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Oct 4, 2014)

Jellal Fernandes said:


> Fuji is not equal to Akainu.



Learn your mathematical symbols brah. 


OT: Fujitora takes this high difficulty, possibly medium difficulty if the conditions are right.


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## Crocodile Atlas (Oct 4, 2014)

Marco is a difficult one to place, though I tend to put him at just below Admiral level. Fujitora will win with extreme difficulty.


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## barreltheif (Oct 4, 2014)

Fujitora high difficulty. Fujitora is Rayleigh/Sengoku level. Above Marco.


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## Jellal Fernandes (Oct 4, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Learn your mathematical symbols brah.
> 
> 
> OT: Fujitora takes this high difficulty, possibly medium difficulty if the conditions are right.



Let me rephrase that Kizaru is not equal to Akainu...


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## Datassassin (Oct 4, 2014)

I don't see Fujitora losing, but at the same time he comes across as weaker than Akainu/Kizaru/Aokiji. Fujitora could take this with extreme difficulty; he'd really have to work to exhaust the regeneration.


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## Gohara (Oct 4, 2014)

Marco wins with high to extremely high (closer to extremely high than high) difficulty.

I would say- in general- a Yonkou First Mate is stronger than an Admiral, but it depends on the exact First Mate and Admiral.


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## Suit (Oct 4, 2014)

I see Fujitora winning this at about extreme. I don't say high because Marco will have an easier time hurting Fuji than he did with Kizaru and Kuzan. Fuji doesn't have an extra logia power to hit through. 

Basically, it's going to take a while for Fuji to wear Marco's regeneration down. During that time, Marco is going to land some heavy blows on Fuji. Given that the latter is on par with C3, he will pull through with extreme.


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## trance (Oct 4, 2014)

Gohara said:


> .I would say- in general- a Yonkou First Mate is stronger than an Admiral, but it depends on the exact First Mate and Admiral.



Except Marco and Benn have done nothing to suggest they're stronger than an Admiral. I can see equality but stronger?


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## StrawHat4Life (Oct 4, 2014)

I think it could go either way. So far I haven't seen much to indicate that Fujitora should be regarded with quite the same reverence as the original colored trio. Yes Fujitora is still a beast but no more than Marco already is.


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## Luke (Oct 5, 2014)

Trance said:


> Except Marco and Benn have done nothing to suggest they're stronger than an Admiral. I can see equality but stronger?



Beckman is certainly badass enough to take out an Admiral or two


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## Patrick (Oct 5, 2014)

This really is a toss up. Whoever wins takes it Extreme Difficulty, slightly favoring Issho to take it though.


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## Sabox (Oct 5, 2014)

Luke said:


> Beckman is certainly badass enough to take out an Admiral or two



i dont understand that ben beckman hype he seems weak to me 


i mean he only have a pistol


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## Luke (Oct 5, 2014)

When a friend armed with a pistol tells Kizaru not to move a muscle, you know he's at least stronger than Marco.


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## Ruse (Oct 5, 2014)

Luke said:


> When a friend armed with a pistol tells Kizaru not to move a muscle, *you know he's at least stronger than Marco*.



Not enough to put him over Marco


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## BashFace (Oct 5, 2014)

Marco               mid diff

you noobs know nothing


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## Luke (Oct 5, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> Not enough to put him over Marco



Sengoku > Marco


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## Sabox (Oct 5, 2014)

pwn goat > mihawk


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## Sabox (Oct 5, 2014)

Luke said:


> When a friend armed with a pistol tells Kizaru not to move a muscle, you know he's at least stronger than Marco.



kizaru was trolling he is not serious


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## Shinthia (Oct 5, 2014)

Serious Kizaru does not exist


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## Sabox (Oct 5, 2014)

strong ben beckman doesnt exist


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 5, 2014)

The Red Dog Akainu said:


> strong ben beckman doesnt exist



Beckman is the first mate shown i  OP and will probably be the last shown in action. Dude should be strongest FM


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## Ruse (Oct 5, 2014)

Luke said:


> Sengoku >= Marco



I agree


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## Luke (Oct 5, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> I agree



Finally one of your opinions are reasonable


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## Funk Soul B (Oct 5, 2014)

Im inclined to give marco the benefit of the doubt


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## Luke (Oct 5, 2014)

If anything, an Admiral should be given the benefit of the doubt over a Yonko First Mate.


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## Gohara (Oct 5, 2014)

Trance said:


> Except Marco and Benn have done nothing to suggest they're stronger than an Admiral. I can see equality but stronger?



Well, let me put it this way: I believe Beckman to be at the very top of Admiral level, if not a bit higher, while I view Marco as being around the middle of Admiral level or a little higher.  So they could still potentially be called equals overall, but I think the overall average power of a Yonkou First Mate is higher than the overall average power of an Admiral.

However, that depends on how strong Kaidou's and Big Mam's First Mates are exactly.  So, it's very possible that they're equal in that sense.


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## trance (Oct 6, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Well, let me put it this way: I believe Beckman to be at the very top of Admiral level, if not a bit higher, while I view Marco as being around the middle of Admiral level or a little higher.  So they could still potentially be called equals overall, but I think the overall average power of a Yonkou First Mate is higher than the overall average power of an Admiral.
> 
> However, that depends on how strong Kaidou's and Big Mam's First Mates are exactly.  So, it's very possible that they're equal in that sense.



Again, nothing suggests the Yonko first mates are inherently superior to the Admirals and this argument has little, if any, weight.


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## Magician (Oct 6, 2014)

Fuji wins high-extreme diff.

He'd have more trouble cause he's not a logia.


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## Monster (Oct 6, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Well, let me put it this way: *I believe Beckman to be at the very top of Admiral level, if not a bit higher,* while I view Marco as being around the middle of Admiral level or a little higher.  So they could still potentially be called equals overall, but I think the overall average power of a Yonkou First Mate is higher than the overall average power of an Admiral.
> 
> However, that depends on how strong Kaidou's and Big Mam's First Mates are exactly.  So, it's very possible that they're equal in that sense.


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## Sabox (Oct 6, 2014)

ben is kizaru level

mid admiral


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## Funk Soul B (Oct 6, 2014)

Luke said:


> I'll give it to Fujitora with high, possibly extreme, difficulty.



its dependant on where you see fujitora relative to the marineford admirals. Marco fought on even terms with them and id say theyd all be pushed to high high-extreme diff to beat hem whereas while fuji is obviously right up there with them theres a slightly larger gap between them, due to how exceptional akainu and aokiji were portrayed to be


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## zenieth (Oct 6, 2014)

>even terms



That's something marco did none of.

Marco most certainly fought the admirals

Marco did not come out the better or equal of any of his exchanges


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## Funk Soul B (Oct 6, 2014)

zenieth said:


> >even terms
> 
> 
> 
> ...



he didnt come off any worse than aokiji or kizaru in their exchanges


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## Kaiser (Oct 6, 2014)

Actually Marco bested Kizaru in his clash


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## zenieth (Oct 6, 2014)

>bested
>kizaru completely spotless
>marco having to regen from an attack not even aimed at him


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## zenieth (Oct 6, 2014)

Marco did enough to prove he could hold his own against the admirals.

He showed nothing to suggest he was ever their equal or better


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## Funk Soul B (Oct 6, 2014)

zenieth said:


> Marco did enough to prove he could hold his own against the admirals.
> 
> He showed nothing to suggest he was ever their equal or better



i never said he was superior or equal


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## Shinthia (Oct 6, 2014)

Macco to stronk po Kizaru


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## zenieth (Oct 6, 2014)

>even terms


Do you not know what this phrase means?


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## Kaiser (Oct 6, 2014)

zenieth said:


> >bested
> >kizaru completely spotless
> >marco having to regen from an attack not even aimed at him


> Completely block Kizaru's strongest attack
> Send Kizaru flying
> Not bested


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## zenieth (Oct 6, 2014)

Kaiser said:


> > bested
> > Completely block Kizaru's strongest attack
> > Send Kizaru flying



>having holes in you eye and neck is blocked
>kizaru more interested in his denden


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## Kaiser (Oct 6, 2014)

zenieth said:


> >having holes in you eye and neck is blocked
> >kizaru more interested in his denden


We see Marco rotating to block all of them and none of them managed to go through, so...

> Lasers fail to go through him
> Gets send flying
> Kizaru asking help from giants to stop Marco's aerial attacks 
> Not bested


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## Shinthia (Oct 6, 2014)

Kaiser said:


> > Completely block Kizaru's strongest attack
> > Send Kizaru flying
> > Not bested



Marco can do that to Kizaru 100000000000000000 days & night straight . It aint doing shit.

And thats Kizaru's strongest attack ?


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## Orca (Oct 6, 2014)

Although I agree that Kizaru beats Marco but I'm not following the reasoning being used here. Like why does it matter that Marco had to regen from an attack that wasn't aimed at him? Are we supposed to expect that he should be able to just tank the attack with his chest wide open? 

Also why are we expecting Kizaru to have spots/bruises from a kick that he blocked? The important part was the kick overpowering him in that instance. Needless to say one kick isn't enough to gravely injure an admiral anyway.


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## Kaiser (Oct 6, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Marco can do that to Kizaru 100000000000000000 days & night straight . It aint doing shit.
> 
> And thats Kizaru's strongest attack ?


Considering that despite blocking, he was sent flying, it shows what would have happened to him if he didn't block..

And yes as far as i remember yasaka no magatama is Kizaru's strongest attack, or at least to date



Luffee said:


> Also why are we expecting Kizaru to have spots/bruises from a kick that he blocked? The important part was the kick overpowering him in that instance.


Indeed


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## Coruscation (Oct 6, 2014)

Marco and Kizaru clearly clashed equally in their scuffle at the start of the war. There's no other word for it. They did the exact same thing (took on an attack from the other) and reacted in the same way (by quipping about how "damaging" it was, while actually taking no damage).


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## Ruse (Oct 6, 2014)

Kaiser said:


> > Completely block *Kizaru's strongest attack*
> > Send Kizaru flying
> > Not bested



How do you know that's Kizaru's strongest attack?


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## Orca (Oct 6, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> How do you know that's Kizaru's strongest attack?



I would say that its atleast one of his stronger attacks. Though I would expect Kizaru to have more in his arsenal. Another thing to note is that YnM has large AOE and therefore it should  less effective against a single strong opponent. Kinda like Ryusei Kazan.


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## Shinthia (Oct 6, 2014)

Send him flying normally & send him flying in this situation is totally totally different. Kizaru dont have wings while Marco has.Kizaru cant block any half decent kick in that situation . Its not overpowering Kizaru. Try to take the situation in account.

Strongest attack _shown _ so far and basically his only named attack shown. Saying its Kizaru's strongest attack is like saying CoC drive is Shanks strongest attack. U can say Kizaru used a very strong attack but saying its strongest is just plain exaggerating .


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## Orca (Oct 6, 2014)

Kizaru doesn't need wings to fly/levitate.


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## Kaiser (Oct 6, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Send him flying normally & send him flying in this situation is totally totally different. Kizaru dont have wings while Marco has.Kizaru cant block any half decent kick in that situation . Its not overpowering Kizaru. Try to take the situation in account.


It wasn't a free fall situation. We clearly see the line trajectory indicating how fast Marco sent him flying. He was bested. Even the marines were worrying about that


> U can say Kizaru used a very strong attack but saying its strongest is just plain exaggerating .


Yes i corrected by saying i was talking about his strongest attack to date


			
				Kaiser said:
			
		

> And yes as far as i remember yasaka no magatama is Kizaru's strongest attack, *or at least to date*


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## Shinthia (Oct 6, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Kizaru doesn't need wings to fly/levitate.



He may go from one place to another with light speed but he cant stay on the air like Marco. Once he lose his momentum he will fall. And adding a half decent force on him making it more easier


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## Coruscation (Oct 6, 2014)

Considering Enel couldn't hover freely in the air chances are Kizaru can't either. Not necessarily because it makes more sense but because Oda decides he can't.


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## zenieth (Oct 6, 2014)

Kaiser said:


> We see Marco rotating to block all of them and none of them managed to go through, so...
> 
> > Lasers fail to go through him
> > Gets send flying
> ...



standards of a damaging attack is the ability to go through now?

Kizaru's attack did damage, it did what would for anyone other than marco be lethal damage.

Whether he regened doesn't change the fact that Kizaru can and has done far more damage to Marco than Marco has been shown to do to kizaru

Comparing that to a kick to someone in the air, who personally can't fly


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## Orca (Oct 6, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Considering Enel couldn't hover freely in the air chances are Kizaru can't either. Not necessarily because it makes more sense but because Oda decides he can't.



I'd assume they were using geppo. Considering aokiji was able to levitate as well.


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## DavyChan (Oct 6, 2014)

I'll go with Marco based on y'alls tier lists tht i have seen.

tbh though, im opposite of y'all. y'all like to see these not known strength people threads i like to make SH threads and threads about people who's strength is determined to a good extent.


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## Captain Altintop (Oct 6, 2014)

Pre Skip C3 >== Fuji >= Marco

Fuji closter to C3 than Marco, but he would need very high  diff to beat Marco.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Oct 6, 2014)

lol Kaiserin

All that scuffle demonstrated was that Kizaru couldn't be arsed to spend the requisite time and energy to take out Marco then. 

And whilst it wasn't a superficially damaging attack (cos of Marco's DF innit) the fact that Marco has to use his regen to survive from it (otherwise hello Mr dead parrot) which consumes both energy and stamina indicates it wasn't without any cost.


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## Amol (Oct 6, 2014)

Extreme diff either way favouring Issho though .


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## Kaiser (Oct 6, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> lol Kaiserin


It's Kaiser 



> All that scuffle demonstrated was that Kizaru couldn't be arsed to spend the requisite time and energy to take out Marco then.
> 
> And whilst it wasn't a superficially damaging attack (cos of Marco's DF innit) the fact that Marco has to use his regen to survive from it (otherwise hello Mr dead parrot) which consumes both energy and stamina indicates it wasn't without any cost.


Actually no considering Marco didn't even bother use phoenix form to block the attack. He blocked them in base. In phoenix form we've seen Kizaru's lasers couldn't even phase him

PS: I'm not actually saying Marco is stronger than Kizaru. Just that during that clash, it's Marco who got the upper hand and not the contrary. Regeneration is Marco's power. We can't go with a without. Not to mention, like i've said before, the lasers didn't even manage to go through him when they have been showed before to go through materials/humans. It means that Marco's rotation(likely with haki) was capable to completely block them


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## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 6, 2014)

Marco can also stalemate Kizaru, in my opinion; that much was shown in canon.
He doesn't necessarily have to tank Kizaru's lasers, considering he's fast enough to simply parry them in phoenix form. Ultimately, it will come down to attrition in that bout, which can go either way.

I actually think Fujitora would have an easier time damaging Marco - in comparison to Kizaru - because of how the gravitational attacks work against regeneration. However, he's vulnerable without that extra shield of element guarding him like C3, making the fight more balanced. 

Akainu >/= Aokiji > Kizaru = Marco = Fujitora
The difference between the *bottom three* and *top two* is very small, though, and they'd even experience lots of difficulty taking down those guys individually.

Akainu/Aokiji defeat those individual guys with high difficulty (greater end).
Enough difficulty to turn the tables with one high-tier combatant, who are basically fodder before top-tier characters under normal circumstances...


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## Gohara (Oct 6, 2014)

Pretty much what Luffee and Coruscation said about Marco vs. Kizaru.  Marco intentionally took Kizaru's attack.  That it wasn't aimed at Marco doesn't necessarily make the attack any less strong.  If anything, that favors Marco more so, since the attack was aimed at Whitebeard.  Even if Kizaru damaged Marco in that instance, it doesn't count against the latter in any way since the attack was taken on purpose and it was regenerated.

@ Starkiller.

I didn't necessarily say they are inherently stronger.  I just said I view the average power of a Yonkou First Mate to be higher than the average power of an Admiral assuming Kaidou's and Big Mam's First Mates are at least around as strong as Marco.


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## zenieth (Oct 6, 2014)

The issue isn't that he can regenerate.

Everyone knows that.

The issue is he takes damage and subsequently, Kizaru does not.

And unlike a logia, Marco's regen isn't unlimited.

So it's a battle of attrition

One Marco would never win,cause you know he's not shown the capacity to actually damage kizaru.


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## Gohara (Oct 6, 2014)

I think I get what you're trying to say.  You're trying to say that we know that Kizaru can damage Marco whereas we technically never saw Marco deal notable visible damage to Kizaru.  However, I don't think we saw enough to rightfully determine that Marco can't deal notable visible damage to Kizaru.

I do think them fighting evenly and Marco even overpowering Kizaru at one point suggests and portrays that Marco can deal notable visible damage to Kizaru.  We just didn't see him do that, just like we didn't see Kizaru damage Marco enough to where the latter's regenerative abilities couldn't keep up.

Either way, I would say they were portrayed to be around the same level of power.  Either could be stronger than the other, but there's not a significant difference between them either way.


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## trance (Oct 6, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Starkiller.
> 
> I didn't necessarily say they are inherently stronger.  I just said I view the average power of a Yonkou First Mate to be higher than the average power of an Admiral assuming Kaidou's and Big Mam's First Mates are at least around as strong as Marco.



And again, that's baseless. Benn and Marco _have done nothing_ to suggest superiority (even slightly so) to an Admiral.


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## zenieth (Oct 7, 2014)

Overpower indicates that kizaru met marco with equal force and was overcome.

He blocked

He blocked and subsequently mocked marco about the effect of his strike

Which marco even noted was blatant sarcasm.

I don't deny that Marco probably could do some damage to an admiral.

But kizaru has overwhelmingly and unquestionably proven he can wound Marco extensively, On more than one occasion.


He has far more benefit of the doubt than Marco is getting from me in terms of who among the two is superior.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 7, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Marco can also stalemate Kizaru, in my opinion; that much was shown in canon.
> He doesn't necessarily have to tank Kizaru's lasers, considering he's fast enough to simply parry them in phoenix form. Ultimately, it will come down to attrition in that bout, which can go either way.


And in a battle of attrition, the guy with hundreds of lasers and mangrove busting kicks is probably going to outlast the guy with claws.


King Itachi said:


> However, he's vulnerable without that extra shield of element guarding him like C3, making the fight more balanced.


Marco made every Admiral save Akainu tangible, and if Issho's durability is anything like the Color Trio's (aka the guys who can tank punches from Whitebeard, fight and survive ten day battles, etc), I don't really see how not being a Logia is that big a deal.


King Itachi said:


> Akainu/Aokiji defeat those individual guys with high difficulty (greater end).


Akainu and Aokiji are not beating Kizaru with anything less than extreme diff. Where Issho ranks among them in terms of strength should hopefully be made clear soon enough.


Kaiser said:


> Actually no considering Marco didn't even bother use phoenix form to block the attack. He blocked them in base.


What's the difference? He was still using his DF to regenerate from Kizaru's attacks.


Kaiser said:


> In phoenix form we've seen Kizaru's lasers couldn't even phase him


Yes, they were, Marco was regenerating from the damage dealt.


Kaiser said:


> PS: I'm not actually saying Marco is stronger than Kizaru. Just that during that clash, it's Marco who got the upper hand and not the contrary.


Marco had the aerial advantage and the gravity was against Kizaru, so it's only natural Marco could kick him to the ground below (and Kizaru was completely fine afterwards).


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## Wayne With The Ism (Oct 7, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> lol Kaiserin
> 
> All that scuffle demonstrated was that Kizaru couldn't be arsed to spend the requisite time and energy to take out Marco then.
> 
> *And whilst it wasn't a superficially damaging attack (cos of Marco's DF innit) the fact that Marco has to use his regen to survive from it (otherwise hello Mr dead parrot)* which consumes both energy and stamina indicates it wasn't without any cost.



The fact Kizaru had to use *his* fruit to make Marco use his. Otherwise hello Mr. alive and well Marco. Where was it shown that Marco had to use any energy or stamina to regen? I could just say the same thing for Kizaru, eventually he'll run out of energy and stamina from spamming lasers. If we take things into perspective, realistically with what we know from their clash, Marco actually has the edge. Kizaru failed to do any harm to Marco. Marco was the one who sent Kizaru flying although ultimately failing to do any damage. Marco was shown to be superior both offensively and defensively. We just give Kizaru the benefit of the doubt. I do think Kizaru would beat Marco though, it will be very high to extreme diff.


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## trance (Oct 7, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> The fact Kizaru had to use *his* fruit to make Marco use his. Otherwise hello Mr. alive and well Marco. Where was it shown that Marco had to use any energy or stamina to regen? I could just say the same thing for Kizaru, eventually he'll run out of energy and stamina from spamming lasers. If we take things into perspective, realistically with what we know from their clash, Marco actually has the edge. Kizaru failed to do any harm to Marco. Marco was the one who sent Kizaru flying although ultimately failing to do any damage. Marco was shown to be superior both offensively and defensively. We just give Kizaru the benefit of the doubt. I do think Kizaru would beat Marco though, it will be very high to extreme diff.



Ultimately, it comes down to if Kizaru's endurance and stamina is greater than Marco's regenerative capacity and limit. Personally, I think it is.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Oct 7, 2014)

zenieth said:


> Overpower indicates that kizaru met marco with equal force and was overcome.
> 
> He blocked
> 
> ...



Marco also made fun of Kizaru by saying " you got me" after Yasakani no Magatama failed to do anything to Marco. But the thing is, Marco sent Kizaru flying after Kizaru's words. Even though Kizaru wasn't hurt, Marco was shown to be superior right there. I still give the benefit of the doubt to Kizaru though, if there was an actual fight.


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## zenieth (Oct 7, 2014)

I'm pretty sure an insult with visible wounds on the insulting party is less spectacular than an insult from the party that received nothing.


Being kicked away doesn't mean jack shit if the only thing the guy who kicked you can boast is 

"hey, I moved you!"


WELL GOOD FUCKING WORK

But that isn't the point.

The point is Kizaru can clearly and definitively inflict lethal wounds on Marco and the same can't be said of marco

In a battle of attrition, the victor is painfully clear especially when it's established that Marco does in fact have a limit to his ability to regenerate.


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## zenieth (Oct 7, 2014)

Also people need to stop with this bullshit of failed to do any harm


Marco isn't a logia

Attacks don't go through him

He regenerates.

If marco had to use flames to close holes


do you know what that means?

It means you fucking harmed him.


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## Kaiser (Oct 7, 2014)

Marco _deliberately_ jumped into/intercepted Kizaru's flying attacks to block it. The fact he could react, let alone jump into Kizaru's yasakani no magatama when it was already fired shows that in other conditions(1 on 1) he has the ability to dodge them because he is that fast. Not to mention he blocked it while in base, not even bothering to use phoenix form. It's more than obvious that Marco simply did that for the show using his ability to laugh at Kizaru. He wasn't even phased by Kizaru's attacks at all, hence he joked about it. 

Fujitora had to block Zoro's air slash or he would have been cut considering the flying slash in question pushed him back for few meters, yet Jozu blocked a much stronger flying slash without even flinching at all. Jozu > Fujitora?


Tea said:


> What's the difference? He was still using his DF to regenerate from Kizaru's attacks.


The difference is that in phoenix form, the regenerative ability is instantaneous when in base form it takes time depending on the user's will



> Yes, they were, Marco was regenerating from the damage dealt.


The regeneration was happening instantly though. Hence he wasn't even phase by his attacks. He was continuing his run as if nothing was happening without a split of mistep



> Marco had the aerial advantage and the gravity was against Kizaru, so it's only natural Marco could kick him to the ground below (and Kizaru was completely fine afterwards).


Kizaru was fine because he is a logia. Earth isn't supposed to possess haki/being made of kairoseki to actually damage Kizaru when he hurt ground. Only one who could have damaged him is Marco, but he blocked. Still Marco overpowered him in the end, sending him flying on the ground. We clearly see the line trajectory in which Kizaru was sent. It had nothing to do with gravity considering it wasn't a free fall. It's Marco's kick that had that effect on him. 

Not to mention that as a marine since his younger days to the point of becoming admiral, he should at least be capable to use geppou not to mention standing still in the air due to his logia. It's highly unlikely Kizaru can't fight in the air


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## zenieth (Oct 7, 2014)

I like that false dicohtomy of interceptions.

The point of the matter is that the ability wounded. And Marco most certainly wasn't in base as he clearly had his wings formed, not that it matters considering that Tea already brought up that the same thing happened while he was transformed.

And I know Marco shrugged it off.

His DF gives him that liberty, but that wasn't a block of anything other than being a wound sponge.




Kaiser said:


> Fujitora had to block Zoro's air slash or he would have been cut considering the flying slash in question pushed him back for few meters, yet Jozu blocked a much stronger flying slash without even flinching at all. Jozu > Fujitora?



I sure do love this strawman, since it in no way actually addresses the point at hand and gives a false example of comparison.

Do I think Jozu is stronger than Fujitora? No

Do I think Jozu, who has a devil fruit designed for defense would inherently have a greater defense than fujitora's which provides no such benefit? uhhhh yeah

This might surprise you, but caribou has a better inherent defense than all of the strawhats, don't mean he's stronger.


but ignoring that

Jozu received no wounds from blocking mihawk
Fujitora received no wounds from blocking zoro

Marco did receive wounds from blocking Kizaru.



> The difference is that in phoenix form, the regenerative ability is instantaneous when in base form it takes time depending on the user's will
> 
> 
> The regeneration was happening instantly though. Hence he wasn't even phase by his attacks. He was continuing his run as if nothing was happening without a split of mistep



It's in the same post yet your point about marco's regeneration, unfounded by the way, contradicts itself.

He heals slower in base while zoan is instantaneous, but wait base is also instantaneous...really


----------



## Monster (Oct 7, 2014)

Marco extreme diff.


----------



## opofft (Oct 7, 2014)

Fujitora wins high diff.
His title>flaming turkeys title

Yonkou>=Admiral>First mate


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## GIORNO (Oct 7, 2014)

Fujitora lel diff


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## Gohara (Oct 7, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

My belief that Beckman is a little above Admiral level or at least a little above the average power of an Admiral stems from Kizaru surrendering to him.

I would say Marco is at least equal to the average power of an Admiral, but personally I place him slightly above that level.  I can agree that such is more so speculation, though.

@ zenieth.

They clashed, and Kizaru was sent flying.  Kizaru wasn't dealt notable visible damage, but he was still overpowered.

I still don't think it matters that we've seen Kizaru deal more damage to Marco than we've seen the latter deal to the former, since the latter just negates the damage anyways.  Even if I agree that regenerating requires Marco to expend some energy, Kizaru also has to expend some energy to attack him in the first place.  Kizaru also has to expend energy to clash with Marco.  So, both expended energy with no lasting notable visible damage.  The only difference is that Marco overpowered Kizaru when they clashed.

I would be okay with saying that they fought equally overall, but that's at best in Kizaru's case IMO.


----------



## Zeus. (Oct 7, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Considering Enel couldn't hover freely in the air chances are Kizaru can't either. Not necessarily because it makes more sense but because Oda decides he can't.


Kizaru could hover freely in the air.


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## Rocktomato (Oct 7, 2014)

Marco really can't fly when the gravity's ten times as strong and pointing towards Fujitora's sword.

Basically, he gets a good fight in, but eventually he's going to have to give in and submit to the Blind Swordsman. His feats of strength aren't anything like those of Fujitora, who we have seen was able to wreck a large part of a city using a meteor even with Bird Cage active. He also seemed to be winning against Sabo, the Revolutionary Army's second in command, while completely casual. 

I can see Marco giving Fuji a few more scars, but that's it. 'High Diff' as one might say.


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## Zeus. (Oct 7, 2014)

A high-diff battle would leave Fujitora more than just a few scars lol.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Oct 7, 2014)

zenieth said:


> I'm pretty sure an insult with visible wounds on the insulting party is less spectacular than an insult from the party that received nothing.
> 
> 
> Being kicked away doesn't mean jack shit if the only thing the guy who kicked you can boast is
> ...




No one said Kizaru couldn't harm Marco. I was talking about effective damage, which neither of them were able to do in that little short fight. The fact Marco overpowered Kizaru and sent him flying was the point i was trying to get at. The fact that he sent Kizaru flying shows strength superiority, not just moving someone. (inb4 Kizaru was trolling) The only times Kizaru did damage to Marco was when Marco was handcuffed or giving his attention elsewhere.


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## trance (Oct 8, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Starkiller.
> 
> My belief that Beckman is a little above Admiral level or at least a little above the average power of an Admiral stems from Kizaru surrendering to him.



A surrender riddled with sarcasm is being taken seriously? 

Plus, Kizaru called Benn's bluff and escaped anyway. 



> I would say Marco is at least equal to the average power of an Admiral, but personally I place him slightly above that level.  I can agree that such is more so speculation, though



It is and it's somewhat baseless tbh. Marco only really has a positive portrayal against Kizaru. He blindsided Kuzan with a kick and with a combined, blindsided assault with Vista, didn't harm Akainu. Is he unable to damage them with 10 attacks out of 10? No but it's pretty clear that it will take more than a few kicks to hurt the Admirals.


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## Sherlōck (Oct 8, 2014)

If Marco had any other DF he would have died with a hole in his head.That's the bitter truth.


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## Dr. White (Oct 8, 2014)

Fuji Wins High diff. He has the DC to put a hurting on Marcoboy, he can levitate to nullify his air game, and his fruit offers crazy gravity hax which can hold Marco down to keep him in one place while damaging him. GG Marco.


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## zenieth (Oct 8, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> No one said Kizaru couldn't harm Marco. I was talking about effective damage, which neither of them were able to do in that little short fight. The fact Marco overpowered Kizaru and sent him flying was the point i was trying to get at. The fact that he sent Kizaru flying shows strength superiority, not just moving someone. (inb4 Kizaru was trolling) The *only times Kizaru did damage to Marco was when Marco was handcuffed or giving his attention elsewhere.*


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## zenieth (Oct 8, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Starkiller.
> 
> My belief that Beckman is a little above Admiral level or at least a little above the average power of an Admiral stems from Kizaru surrendering to him.
> 
> ...



Except Oda has gone on record as saying Marco's regen is limited.


And overpowering is what DD did to Luffy.

He utterly smashed luffy's defense with a kick and wounded him.

Comparatively, kicking Kizaru down, who can't levitate but doing zero damage is absolutely moot. 

You've got to make a reasonable suggestion that all of those kicks will stack into something substantial, which no friend arguing for marco can.



Cause that kick did nothing to kizaru, didn't even scuff his suit.


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## zenieth (Oct 8, 2014)

And if we're bringing up defenses that were overpowered.

I'd call that pinwheel that Marco used to defend Whitebeard a lot more smashed than Kizaru's two arms.


Cause least kizaru didn't have 3-4 holes in him for his troubles.


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## trance (Oct 8, 2014)

Getting wounded and regenerating doesn't get rid of the fact that he was _still wounded in the first place_. I don't understand why this is so hard for some to grasp.


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## zenieth (Oct 8, 2014)

clearly marco is a logia


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## GIORNO (Oct 8, 2014)

It's like people don't even think about shit they say.

He has logia-*like* abilities but he is not a logia. Attacks will and can phase through him like he was a Logia, but it *still* hurts him he just has the ability to very rapidly regenerate from them.

EDIT: Okay this could have been misconstrued, but I wasn't talking about you zen, I know you were being facetious.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Oct 8, 2014)

zenieth said:


>



*Effective* damage.


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## trance (Oct 8, 2014)

Now, you're just moving the goalpost.


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## zenieth (Oct 8, 2014)

clearly marco's regen is unlimited


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## Wayne With The Ism (Oct 8, 2014)

Kizaru clearly has infinite stamina.


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## zenieth (Oct 8, 2014)

He doesn't need to.

If scrubs like jinbei and ace can fight for five days straight

And his contemporaries can fight for 10

he sure as fuck can keep killing Marco for that duration.


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## Sablés (Oct 8, 2014)

Eh. What's the big deal about Marco getting hurt from Kizaru's named attacks?


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## zenieth (Oct 8, 2014)

The deal is that scrub aint Kizaru's equal


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## zenieth (Oct 8, 2014)

Marco's a high diff fight at absolute best

And that's giving the friend the benefit of the doubt more than his feats have actually earned.


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## Sablés (Oct 8, 2014)

zenieth said:


> punks so hard he does absolutely nothing to him.
> 
> Jozu did more damage to an admiral.



Which is more or less the point. We got nothing from that skirmish. They both no sold what the other dished out.

Marco's the better meat (chicken?) shield. All regen and nothing else from what we've seen; Kizaru would definitely take it but he'd have to work his ass for it. 

Could go either way with Fujitora.


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## trance (Oct 8, 2014)

I'm pretty sure that whole scene demonstrates that Marco's regeneration grants him an incredible and efficient defense but also proves his offense is a bit lacking. Ultimately, it comes down to a battle of attrition, in which case Kizaru is given the green light more times than not due to greater portrayal and hype.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Oct 8, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> Kizaru clearly has infinite stamina.



I've seen this issue raised by Gohara and a few other grubs on here, "_If Marco depletes his stamina then Kizaru loses some absorbing damage with his logia"_

It's such a massive false equivalence. 

Zenith's already touched on this already but regeneration is the main feature of Marco's fruit, it's what he's known for and is a process he actually has to physically undergo whereas as Kizaru is a logia which gives him intangibility naturally.

It also stands to reason that undergoing a process as mightily impressive and hax'd as full physical regeneration would consume a horrendously greater amount of energy and stamina than just "remaining in your logia state" which is something we've seen most logias in the series do thus far do casually. 

There's no such thing as a free lunch even in One Piece. There's precedent already set by Oda, in the drawbacks Law's fruit in this regard.

OT:
Fujitora takes this high or possibly medium difficulty. Same with any of the other Admirals.

The problem is that Marco poses little attacking threat to them and it'll just come down to seeing out Marco's regeneration capabilities. Annoying but not onerous.


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## Empathy (Oct 8, 2014)

For now I think there's more evidence for Marco being closer in strength to the original trio than Fujitora. That's just due to Marco actually clashing with those admirals while we've only seen Fujitora fight Sabo. He could get more evidence indicating him to be equivalent to the pre-skip trinity, but I think Marco deserves the benefit of the doubt for now.


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## GIORNO (Oct 8, 2014)

Empathy said:


> For now I think there's more evidence for Marco being closer in strength to the original trio than Fujitora. That's just due to Marco actually clashing with those admirals while we've only seen Fujitora fight Sabo. He could get more evidence indicating him to be equivalent to the pre-skip trinity, but I think Marco deserves the benefit of the doubt for now.



Like... Fuck off m8. :33


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## Admiral Kizaru (Oct 8, 2014)

Liquid said:


> Marco's the better meat (chicken?) shield. All regen and nothing else from what we've seen; Kizaru would definitely take it *but he'd have to work his ass for it. *
> 
> Could go either way with Fujitora.



Nah, not really. 

We've seen that Admiral level fighters are capable of lasting 10 days against fellow Admirals. And unlike fighting other Admirals where you have to block and negate powerful attacks from them, with Marco's there's very little actual threat of receiving damage from him so the same level of difficulty shouldn't be required here.

It'll be time consuming yes but not that difficult in the sense that there's any chance of them losing this.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Oct 8, 2014)

zenieth said:


> The deal is that scrub aint Kizaru's equal



The deal is no one said he was. My biggest point was to say in that scuffle, Marco overpowered Kizaru, and neither of them took any significant damage. I'm not arguing that Marco can beat Kizaru. 

On Topic: Fuji takes this high or very high diff.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Oct 8, 2014)

Giorno said:


> Like... Fuck off m8. :33



I don't know who you are or what your previous name was but I can confidently say that's your best post ever.


----------



## GIORNO (Oct 8, 2014)

To add on to what AK said; you're comparing an Admiral vs. an Admiral to someone whose not Admiral-level vs. an Admiral.

Kizaru doesn't need to put in as much effort against Marco as he would another Admiral and it most certainly shouldn't take him 10 days, even with Marco's regeneration.

We've seen the discrepancy between Marco's and Akainu's haki and the results being Marco can't even scratch him when bloodlusted. Not to say the same would apply for Kizaru considering Akainu probably has marginally better BH than Kizaru, but the fact remains that Marco simply doesn't have the offense to wear Kizaru down as significantly as say a fellow top tier would.


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## Dr. White (Oct 8, 2014)

Empathy said:


> For now I think there's more evidence for Marco being closer in strength to the original trio than Fujitora. That's just due to Marco actually clashing with those admirals while we've only seen Fujitora fight Sabo. He could get more evidence indicating him to be equivalent to the pre-skip trinity, but I think Marco deserves the benefit of the doubt for now.



Why would Marco get the benefit of the doubt? He didn't even fight an admiral 1 on 1 for anything more than a scuffle. Sure I'll give you that his tier placement is higher for now, but you're completely throwing out ability matchup. Fujitora essentially hardcounters Marco. Marco's best things are his flight, Regen, and Martial Combat. Meteors + Gravity work to counter Regen, Gravity levitation allows him to chase Marco and attack from the air, and his gravity AOE can keep Marco at bay, and make sure he doesn't get too close (in which he still has to deal with his swordsmanship). Marco doesn't even have COO feats IIRC and Fujitora is supposed to be a beast at it, which may explain how he can pinpoint grab meteors.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 8, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

1. As I've said before, I disagree that Kizaru was simply being sarcastic.  He expressed anger towards Rayleigh and Kuma when they prevented him from capturing Luffy.  This was before he found out that Luffy is Ace's brother and Dragon's son.  So, he likely wanted to capture him even more during that scene than he did during Sabaody.  I don't think he would give Luffy a much bigger chance of escaping just for the sake of being sarcastic.  Furthermore, he didn't attack the submarine until Beckman left the area.  If he was just being sarcastic, he should have done it immediately after joking around.  So, I do think that portrayal is legitimate.

2. Marco didn't fight Akainu much, but I can agree that the latter is stronger than the former.  However, Akainu isn't an average Admiral.  He's the strongest one.  So I would say pre time skip Akainu > Marco = or > Kizaru and Aokiji.

3. I would say it pretty much does negate that he was damaged in the first place.  I don't think anyone would necessarily deny that Kizaru could damage Marco, even if the former's attacks didn't damage the latter.  So, at most all Kizaru accomplished was forcing Marco to expend some energy to heal himself.  Similarly, Kizaru expended energy to use that technique in the first place.

@ zenieth.

If you don't mind me asking, where did he say that?  I don't remember that off the top of my head.  Either way, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with that.

You don't need to deal someone notable visible damage to overpower them.  So, while that may be an example of Doflamingo overpowering Luffy, that doesn't necessarily mean that such is the minimum requirement for overpowering someone.

Even if Marco didn't deal Kizaru notable visible damage, he still sent him flying.


----------



## trance (Oct 9, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Starkiller.
> 
> 1. As I've said before, I disagree that Kizaru was simply being sarcastic.  He expressed anger towards Rayleigh and Kuma when they prevented him from capturing Luffy.  This was before he found out that Luffy is Ace's brother and Dragon's son.  So, he likely wanted to capture him even more during that scene than he did during Sabaody.  I don't think he would give Luffy a much bigger chance of escaping just for the sake of being sarcastic.  Furthermore, he didn't attack the submarine until Beckman left the area.  If he was just being sarcastic, he should have done it immediately after joking around.  So, I do think that portrayal is legitimate.





That doesn't look sarcastic to you? 



> 2. Marco didn't fight Akainu much, but I can agree that the latter is stronger than the former.  However, Akainu isn't an average Admiral.  He's the strongest one.  So I would say pre time skip Akainu > Marco = or > Kizaru and Aokiji.



Kuzan is nigh equal to Sakazuki. If you think Marco is weaker than Sakazuki, then chances are, he's weaker than Kuzan too. 



> 3. I would say it pretty much does negate that he was damaged in the first place.  I don't think anyone would necessarily deny that Kizaru could damage Marco, even if the former's attacks didn't damage the latter.  So, at most all Kizaru accomplished was forcing Marco to expend some energy to heal himself.  Similarly, Kizaru expended energy to use that technique in the first place.



But with proper scaling, Borsalino should have a minimum of ten days worth of stamina. I don't know if Marco's regenerative limit is that long but can we honestly assume it is?


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Oct 9, 2014)

Trance said:


> That doesn't look sarcastic to you?



Gohara is literally the only serious person I've ever encountered on here that believes that Kizaru wasn't being sarcastic there. I mean the fact that he promptly then ignores Benn Beckman to launch an attack on the Sub should be enough and if not that, then his history of trolling and making snarky comments to his opponents should be sufficient. 

Well I suppose he has to find ways to twist and ignore manga evidence to justify the absurb One Piece beliefs he has.


----------



## RF (Oct 9, 2014)

No sane person can actually believe Kizaru was trolling there.

So he personally decides to go after Luffy, the entire chapter he launches attacks at them, and when a Yonko FM arrives and points a gun at him, despite _allegedly_ being easily capable of continuing his assault regardless of Beckman's presence, Kizaru stops for _no fucking reason_, just so Luffy can get away?

Yeeeeah, makes total sense.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Oct 9, 2014)

Meth said:


> So he personally decides to go after Luffy, the entire chapter he launches attacks at them, and when a Yonko FM arrives and points a gun at him, despite _allegedly_ being easily capable of continuing his assault regardless of Beckman's presence,* Kizaru stops for no fucking reason,* just so Luffy can get away?
> 
> Yeeeeah, makes total sense.


ehhh?? 

He stops because a Yonko's first mate pops out of nowhere threatening him with his gun. Something as major as that requires a brief pause to analyse the situation or at the very least take it in. Especially the surprise of it all as no one quite expected Shanks and his crew to suddenly appear. 

His ridiculously exaggerated, over the top expression with his hands pointed in the air, feinting surrender is what constitutes the trolling aspect of it as it's clearly wholly inappropriate and done to mock Benn Beckman's threat. Something made abundantly clear after he decides to promptly ignore it and go back after the sub.


----------



## Freechoice (Oct 9, 2014)

Man that whole 5 days/10 days fighting thing is ridiculous

Is BB vs Luffy going to last 10 days too?


----------



## RF (Oct 9, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> ehhh??
> 
> He stops because a Yonko's first mate pops out of nowhere threatening him with his gun. Something as major as that requires a brief pause to analyse the situation or at the very least take it in. Especially the surprise of it all as no one quite expected Shanks and his crew to suddenly appear.
> 
> His ridiculously exaggerated, over the top expression with his hands pointed in the air, feinting surrender is what constitutes the trolling aspect of it as it's clearly wholly inappropriate and done to mock Benn Beckman's threat. Something made abundantly clear after he decides to promptly ignore it and go back after the sub.



His expression and demeanor can't be used as implications of him trolling. That simply the way he acts. Nothing more, nothing less. That'd be the equivalent of saying Doflamingo wasn't taking Kuzan at Punk Hazard seriously because he was laughing at him. 

He went after the sub because Shanks proclaimed that he didn't want to continue the fight but stop it. He took his chances once he realized that Beckman wouldn't of retaliated anyway, which is evident by the fact that Beckman really didn't stop him, despite easily being capable of doing so. (like Marco did)


----------



## trance (Oct 9, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Gohara is literally the only serious person I've ever encountered on here that believes that Kizaru wasn't being sarcastic there. I mean the fact that he promptly then ignores Benn Beckman to launch an attack on the Sub should be enough and if not that, then his history of trolling and making snarky comments to his opponents should be sufficient.
> 
> Well I suppose he has to find ways to twist and ignore manga evidence to justify the absurb One Piece beliefs he has.



At best, Borsalino was taking Benn half seriously. He firmly acknowledged his presence, which is relatively justified considering Benn is a powerful combatant, but he called Benn's bluff later on when he attacked Luffy anyway. I mean, if Benn was adamant on keeping him pinned down, why didn't he stop him?


----------



## Orca (Oct 9, 2014)

That scene portrays Beckman as a legitimate threat and yet at the same time doesn't indicate any superiority of Beckman over Kizaru. E.g if Beckman pointed his gun at Akainu and Akainu literally raised his hands and said "oh no! It's ben Beckman", then it would show ben's superiority. Since Akainu is a serious person and for him to raise his hands would mean something. Kizaru on the other hand is a bit goofy. He was obviously exaggerating his expressions a bit by raising his hands. So yeah one could say that Kiz was being a bit trollish.

Yet at the same time we can't say that Kizaru was completely trolling Beckman and could've done whatever he wanted to regardless of Beckman sitting there and threatening him.

The whole scene with Kizaru attacking afterwards can be interpreted as Beckman moving down and being with shanks at that point.  We can assume that he didn't consider it necessary to stop Kizaru by that point. 

To think that Kizaru attacked while Beckman was sitting there and pointing a gun at him wouldn't make Kizaru look awesome. Instead it'll make Oda's writing look shitty.


----------



## Dr. White (Oct 9, 2014)

The Beckman vs Kizaru scene was a forced stalemate scene. Not that Beckman is necessarily Kizaru's equal, but he's close enough in strength that being that close to him made Kizaru vulnerable to taking some damage. That is clear by Kizaru's reaction and the fact that as soon as he found space he made a dash at Law anyway.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 9, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

-Not really, no.  Besides, I think Kizaru's intentions and actions outweigh his facial expressions.  He may have sounded sarcastic at times at Sabaody, but his words and actions indicated that he wanted to capture Luffy.  Similarly, his actions at Marineford suggested the same thing.  Plus, you didn't really address any of my points here.  Other than that, Meth covered it nicely as well.

-I wouldn't say Aokiji is 100% equal to pre time skip Akainu.  So it's possible for pre time skip Akainu to be > Marco while Marco is = or > Kizaru and Aokiji.

@ Admiral Kizaru.

-Your own personal experience debating the topic don't really change or address any of the points I made here.  I can easily say my own personal experiences debating One Piece differ very much from yours, but that doesn't mean I'm going to take those experiences and claim your views are automatically invalid.

-Not only did I not ignore Kizaru attacking the submarine later on, but I actually mentioned that as part of my point here.  If Kizaru was truly just joking around, it's odd that he wouldn't immediately attack the submarine afterwards, rather than wait for Beckman to leave the area and then do it.

-Kizaru having a history of trolling is mostly just your own interpretations of his character.  I'm not saying he's not laid back, but it's possible you've just misunderstood his general laid back attitude as not taking anything seriously.

-What makes you say that?  I've been pretty consistent on this topic, so I don't see how I'm merely just looking for ways to justify my beliefs on the matter.  It wouldn't make sense for me to have that belief if I didn't first have that reason to believe such.  To suggest otherwise would require proof on your part.  If you think my beliefs are absurd, you're more than welcome to provide proof on the contrary.


----------



## Ruse (Oct 9, 2014)

Luffee said:


> That scene portrays Beckman as a legitimate threat and yet at the same time doesn't indicate any superiority of Beckman over Kizaru. E.g if Beckman pointed his gun at Akainu and Akainu literally raised his hands and said "oh no! It's ben Beckman", then it would show ben's superiority. Since Akainu is a serious person and for him to raise his hands would mean something. Kizaru on the other hand is a bit goofy. He was obviously exaggerating his expressions a bit by raising his hands. So yeah one could say that Kiz was being a bit trollish.
> 
> Yet at the same time we can't say that Kizaru was completely trolling Beckman and could've done whatever he wanted to regardless of Beckman sitting there and threatening him.
> 
> ...



How come?


----------



## trance (Oct 9, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Starkiller.
> 
> -Not really, no.  Besides, I think Kizaru's intentions and actions outweigh his facial expressions.  He may have sounded sarcastic at times at Sabaody, but his words and actions indicated that he wanted to capture Luffy.  Similarly, his actions at Marineford suggested the same thing.  Plus, you didn't really address any of my points here.  Other than that, Meth covered it nicely as well.



Dr. White also conveyed my thoughts quite nicely. 



> -I wouldn't say Aokiji is 100% equal to pre time skip Akainu.  So it's possible for pre time skip Akainu to be > Marco while Marco is = or > Kizaru and Aokiji.



Nearly so. In fact, he was able to combat against him on equivalent terms for ten days before ultimately losing out. Chances of Marco fitting perfectly in between them, gap that is nearly non-existent, are slim to none.


----------



## Orca (Oct 9, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> How come?



Because then it would raise the question that why didn't Beckman stop Kizaru when he asked him to a couple of seconds ago? We know that Beckman isn't scared of Kizaru. So it would be bad writing if Beckman was just sitting there and doing nothing while pointing his gun at kizaru. It would be out of character for him. And the panels before it would be pointless.


----------



## Ruse (Oct 9, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Because then it would raise the question that why didn't Beckman stop Kizaru when he asked him to a couple of seconds ago? We know that Beckman isn't scared of Kizaru. So it would be bad writing if Beckman was just sitting there and doing nothing while pointing his gun at kizaru. It would be out of character for him. And the panels before it would be pointless.



Well to be fair he literally just watched Kizaru spam lasers at the Sub without taking any action...


----------



## Orca (Oct 9, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> Well to be fair he literally just watched Kizaru spam lasers at the Sub without taking any action...



Hence why I said that it's better to assume that he moved down by that point and didn't consider it necessary to stop kizaru anymore. We saw Beckman's face when Kizaru attacked and he was looking up(indicating Beckman was no longer up there with Kizaru and was on land now).


----------



## Luke (Oct 9, 2014)

Saying Kizaru was completely joking with Beckman isn't right. He did wait for Beckman to leave the area before he attacked the sub.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 9, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

It was only said that they're close in terms of power.  We've seen fights that are basically 100% even that haven't even lasted a day.  So, I don't think how long it lasted tells us how equal they are.

I believe the difference between pre time skip and Marco to be small.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 9, 2014)

Trance said:


> Nearly so. In fact, he was able to combat against him on equivalent terms for ten days before ultimately losing out. Chances of Marco fitting perfectly in between them, gap that is nearly non-existent, are slim to none.


And Kizaru is just a step behind them. Oda went out of his way to show us how close the Logia Trio were to each other in terms of strength.


Gohara said:


> @ Starkiller.
> 
> It was only said that they're close in terms of power.  We've seen fights that are basically 100% even that haven't even lasted a day.  So, I don't think how long it lasted tells us how equal they are.


So Akainu and Aokiji fighting each other for ten days non stop, both evenly changing the climate of their half of PH permanently, and both of them leaving the other with severe injuries doesn't show how close Akainu and Aokiji were. Seems legit.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 9, 2014)

None of those factors are really exclusive to the idea of them being 100% equal.  All of those things are possible even if Akainu is decisively stronger than Aokiji, but still isn't much stronger than him.


----------



## trance (Oct 9, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Starkiller.
> 
> It was only said that they're close in terms of power.  We've seen fights that are basically 100% even that haven't even lasted a day.  So, I don't think how long it lasted tells us how equal they are.
> 
> I believe the difference between pre time skip and Marco to be small.





> Jimbei: The battle raged for ten whole days, and the world waited on tenterhooks for the outcome. // *Though the two Admirals were almost equal in strength*, one man ultimately emerged victorious.





> Though the two Admirals were almost equal in strength





> Though the two Admirals were almost equal in strength



So, Marco can fit in between two "near equals"? Doubtful.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 10, 2014)

Tea said:


> And in a battle of attrition, the guy with hundreds of lasers and mangrove busting kicks is probably going to outlast the guy with claws.



As long as Marco can evade Kizaru's lasers, the latter will be the one who's wasting energy.
Top-tier combatants have ridiculous stamina, and Logia can also be exhausted in fights - just like Marco's regeneration - so either combatant is going have lots of difficulty taking down one another, assuming the bout doesn't turn into a stalemate. 

Despite Kizaru having the advantage in offense, Marco's advantage comes in mobility and defense.



> Marco made every Admiral save Akainu tangible, and if Issho's durability is anything like the Color Trio's (aka the guys who can tank punches from Whitebeard, fight and survive ten day battles, etc), I don't really see how not being a Logia is that big a deal.



He's still at a disadvantage in that department. The elemental shield is extra protection. 
Unless you think his BH is superior to C3-level BH, he will be at the disadvantage in defense; however, I think his gravitational powers are more effective against Marco, which makes the scaling more balanced.

And I'm pretty sure Marco could have made Akainu tangible at full strength. You have to factor in that he was weakened by Kairouseki - unlike Akainu - who got wrecked by Whitebeard and sat inside a pit to rage, momentarily pissing himself upon seeing Shanks.

The difference is, Kairouseki actually weakens people who have fruits, while there are no actual signs of Akainu being weakened by Whitebeard's BH-imbued attacks. If you want to bring up the equivalency argument, it should be applied to all members of C3 in discussion. 

So we've got "Akainu (bloodlusted) and fellow soldiers vs. Marco (weakened), Vista and commanders"



> Akainu and Aokiji are not beating Kizaru with anything less than extreme diff. Where Issho ranks among them in terms of strength should hopefully be made clear soon enough.



Portrayal indicates that Kizaru is placed on the same level as FMs, per his encounters with Beckman/Marco/Old Rayleigh. Akainu and Aokiji are marginally stronger than every one of those fighters, defeating them with very high difficulty. 

Nothing suggests that Kizaru is their equal... And the same thing goes for Fujitora. 

Akainu and Aokiji are the jewels of their era, similar to how Shanks/Mihawk are seen in the same light.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 10, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

Being close to equal in terms of power doesn't necessarily mean Marco can't fit between them.  If, for example, Akainu is a 100 and Aokiji is a 90- Marco can be around a 95.  None of them would be much stronger than the other.


----------



## zenieth (Oct 10, 2014)

Except the correlation was meant o convey that the gap between Akainu and Aokiji wasn't nearly that big.

A more apt comparison would be

Akainu : 100
Aokiji: 99

And it's rather presumptuous to assume Marco would do better when with vista back up he couldn't manage to even hit Akainu


----------



## Gohara (Oct 10, 2014)

What it was meant to convey is open to interpretation.  I just saw it as meaning that the difference between them isn't big.

While it's possible that Akainu is a 100 and Aokiji is a 95- it could be that Akainu is a 100 and that Aokiji is a 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, etc..

Also, even in your interpretation, Marco could be a 99.5.

Marco's confrontation with pre time skip Akainu was extremely brief.  If we're going to go by that, then I could just say that Aokiji couldn't even manage to hit Ace.


----------



## trance (Oct 11, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Starkiller.
> 
> Being close to equal in terms of power doesn't necessarily mean Marco can't fit between them.  If, for example, Akainu is a 100 and Aokiji is a 90- Marco can be around a 95.  None of them would be much stronger than the other.



But it's a gap that is miniscule at best. Could someone fit perfectly in between them? Possibly but it's doubtful. 

That scene was meant to convey a sense of being extremely close to equal without being "exact equals". 

>Described as near equal
>Dealt serious injuries to each other
>Fought equally for ten days
>Punk Hazard was split perfectly in half by their respective elements, likely portraying them as near equals


----------



## Freechoice (Oct 11, 2014)

5% isn't miniscule 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Don't hurt me Starkiller


*Spoiler*: __ 



 negged


----------



## Captain Altintop (Oct 11, 2014)

Currently:

FA Akainu 100
Kizaru 98
Fujitora 97
Marco 95

Fuji very high to extreme diff.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 11, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

Well I'm not saying you have to agree that he is, but if you agree it's possible then there you go.

Close in power is vague.  That depends on how Jinbe defines close in power.

I agree that Aokiji is close enough in power to pre time skip Akainu to deal him serious injuries.

True, they fought for 10 days, although that doesn't necessarily mean they are equal.  Ace and Jinbe, who are more equal than them, only fought for 5 days.  Pre time skip Luffy and Lucci are probably more equal than them, and their fight lasted less than a day.

The changed climate of Punk Hazard fits whether they are 100% equal or Aokiji just gave pre time skip Akainu around high difficulty.


----------



## zenieth (Oct 11, 2014)

Gohara said:


> What it was meant to convey is open to interpretation.  I just saw it as meaning that the difference between them isn't big.
> 
> While it's possible that Akainu is a 100 and Aokiji is a 95- it could be that Akainu is a 100 and that Aokiji is a 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, etc..
> 
> ...




It was an extremely brief occurence, but it established something very tangible,despite his best efforts (And there's no reason to assume they weren't his best) he failed to make Akainu tangible.

It's one thing to be blocked, it's another to not even have the fortitude to make the other guy tangible.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 11, 2014)

Whether or not it was Marco's best effort is unknown.  Not to mention it was likely not his most powerful attack.  So, whether Marco can make pre time skip Akainu tangible and whether he did in that specific instance are quite possibly two different things.

While blocking and not making someone tangible are two different things, my point here is that if we're going to assume that Marco can't make pre time skip Akainu tangible just because he didn't in that brief instance, then it's only fair that we assume that Aokiji can't get past any of Ace's attacks just because he didn't in that brief instance.


----------



## zenieth (Oct 11, 2014)

We can infer that Ace can effectively counter Aokiji's attack.

That's a fair assessment 


But we also have proof from an outside source (his fight against akainu) that he can and has done substantially better.

That's the benefit of multiple showings which unfortunately for marco is to his detriment.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 11, 2014)

Marco has made Aokiji and Kizaru tangible, so I would say it's likely that he could do the same to pre time skip Akainu.


----------



## trance (Oct 12, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Well I'm not saying you have to agree that he is, but if you agree it's possible then there you go.
> 
> Close in power is vague.  That depends on how Jinbe defines close in power.
> 
> ...



It helps to establish them as extremely close in strength, almost dead equal to each other. Imagine the distance between two molecules placed side-by-side. That's an _absolutely miniscule amount of space between them_. Literally, _nothing_ Marco has proves him to be superior to Kuzan, even by a slight amount. I don't know how hard this is to grasp. 



> The changed climate of Punk Hazard fits whether they are 100% equal or Aokiji just gave pre time skip Akainu around high difficulty.



More like extreme difficulty, mate.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 12, 2014)

What it helps to establish is open to interpretation.  While it's possible they are just a tiny bit below being 100% equal, it's also possible that they're just close in power and that Aokiji would give pre time skip Akainu around high difficulty.

I didn't say Marco is factually between pre time skip Akainu and Aokiji in terms of power.  I said that's where I estimate him to be.


----------



## Canute87 (Oct 12, 2014)

zenieth said:


> We can infer that Ace can effectively counter Aokiji's attack.
> 
> That's a fair assessment
> 
> ...



Ace countered a block attack, not kiji's freezing.


----------



## Dr. White (Oct 12, 2014)

Ace under the high of just watching everyone he loved and more fight for him to survive, and stalemated a Ice Pheasent from an obviously half hearted Aokiji (based off of his comments during attacking Luffy and subsequent fight vs Akainu to switch the direction of the marines). He didn't counter Ice Time, or anything serious from Aokiji. IMO it's like Law countering Fujitora's meteor's twice. Does that mean Law is on Fujitora's level? I don't think so. He's just strong enough to be able to counter some of his attacks, especially if said person who's stronger isn't going all out (fujitora and Aokiji both questioned the methods and ideals of the Marines).


----------



## Tainted Sun (Oct 12, 2014)

Fujitora was always shown to be stronger than Dragon's first mate, don't see why he isn't stronger than Marco as well.


----------



## trance (Oct 12, 2014)

Gohara said:


> What it helps to establish is open to interpretation.  While it's possible they are just a tiny bit below being 100% equal, it's also possible that they're just close in power and that Aokiji would give pre time skip Akainu around high difficulty.



And the former is much more possible than the latter. 

Again, surprisingly dense. 



> I didn't say Marco is factually between pre time skip Akainu and Aokiji in terms of power.  I said that's where I estimate him to be.



Again, _no basis_ to this. None. Nada. :ignoramus


----------



## Raiden34 (Oct 13, 2014)

This shows Marco's phoenix claw attack power, it is almost same level with Vista's slash.

 	animators redraw it

[YOUTUBE]O9w1jwyL9dg[/YOUTUBE]


I think Marco's power depends on his flying speed + good agility, reflexes + good amount of haki + great phoenix defense.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 13, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

Not really.  Neither is notably more possible than the other.  One could say that the other details of the fight support your belief, but one could also say that Akainu having decisively superior feats means the other option is just as possible as what you believe.

I estimate Marco to be equal to, if not slightly stronger than Kizaru since the former did overpower the latter when they clashed.  So, there's not much basis behind it, but I wouldn't say there's zero.  To be fair, I can agree that it's 50/50.


----------



## trance (Oct 13, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Starkiller.
> 
> Not really.  Neither is notably more possible than the other.  One could say that the other details of the fight support your belief, but one could also say that Akainu having decisively superior feats means the other option is just as possible as what you believe.



Actually, Jinbe's statement proves that my belief to be true. 



> I estimate Marco to be equal to, if not slightly stronger than Kizaru since the former did overpower the latter when they clashed.  So, there's not much basis behind it, but I wouldn't say there's zero.  To be fair, I can agree that it's 50/50.



Borsalino =/= Kuzan. :ignoramus


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

-What Jinbe said is what I meant when I said details, but nothing about Jinbe's statement really proves your interpretation to be true.

-I wonder about that.


----------



## trance (Oct 14, 2014)

Gohara said:


> -What Jinbe said is what I meant when I said details, but nothing about Jinbe's statement really proves your interpretation to be true.



"Almost equal in strength"


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

Being close in terms of power doesn't fit what you're saying any more than it does what I'm saying.


----------



## trance (Oct 14, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Being close in terms of power doesn't fit what you're saying any more than it does what I'm saying.



Let's analyze what the word "almost" means 



> Almost (most ), nearly, well-nigh all mean within a small degree of or short space of. Almost implies very little short of



So, I'd say Kuzan was just a very tiny amount below Sakazuki.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

Almost can also mean:

-Nearly.

-A little short of.

-Not quite.

-Close.

In turn, some of those words can mean a short difference, which in turn can mean small.  Small can mean less than normal sized.

That is part of why I say it's open to interpretation.


----------



## Dellinger (Oct 14, 2014)

Gohara still spouting nonsense?


----------



## Admiral Hakuryō (Oct 14, 2014)

It's a very high difficulty fight either way. However, seeing as how Fujitora is an Admiral I'd give him the win, just.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

@ White Hawk.

Well, you're more than welcome to provide proof on the contrary.  If you do, then I won't "spout" what you disagree with here.  If you can't, then I'm not sure what the problem is.


----------



## trance (Oct 14, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Almost can also mean:
> 
> -Nearly.
> 
> ...



And those words lean much more towards Kuzan just being a tiny bit below Sakazuki and hence, a miniscule gap existing between them than not. 

"High difficulty" doesn't really imply "near equals". "Extreme difficulty" does.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

Nearly is the only word I listed that I could maybe agree with, and even then I would say it could go either way.  Either way, my point here is that it's open to interpretation.  It would be jumping the gun to assume exactly what was meant, but Akainu's feats tell me a lot.  So, I could be wrong, but I don't see anything that clearly demonstrates what you're saying to be the case.


----------



## trance (Oct 14, 2014)

Feats only tell so much. What is canon is that Kuzan is nearly equal with Sakazuki.


----------



## Nox (Oct 14, 2014)

Marco did not prove himself to have haki capable of besting an Admiral. Therefore I am going with Fujitora convincingly winning this.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

Aokiji being close to pre time skip Akainu in terms of power is canon.  How we define "close to" is up to interpretation, and isn't currently canon.


----------



## trance (Oct 14, 2014)

No. It's how _you_ deny that they're near equals.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

I don't deny that they're close in terms of power.  Rather, I'm just rejecting that your interpretation is factual.  I don't mind you going with your interpretation, just as you should have no issue with me not going with your interpretation or at least saying that it's only a possibility.


----------



## trance (Oct 14, 2014)

Except them being "near equals" *is* factual.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

Maybe when it comes to them being close in terms of power, but your interpretation of what close in terms of power means exactly isn't factual.


----------



## barreltheif (Oct 14, 2014)

They fought for ten fucking days. Along with Dorry and Brogy, Akainu and Aokiji are the two most dead equal people in the manga. I'm not even sure what more you would want Oda to do to tell us that they're equal.

"They were a perfect match for each other in terms of strength, but in the end...there was a victor."
"There powers were quite evenly matched"


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

Jinbe and Ace (at the time) are more equal than pre time skip Akainu and Aokiji, and they only fought for five days.  Luffy (at the time) and Lucci are more equal than pre time skip Akainu and Aokiji, and they fought for less than a day.

Yes, "quite evenly" is different than "perfect match".  There are multiple different translations, and some of them don't clearly equate to your interpretation.


----------



## Dellinger (Oct 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Jinbe and Ace (at the time) are more equal than pre time skip Akainu and Aokiji, and they only fought for five days.  Luffy (at the time) and Lucci are more equal than pre time skip Akainu and Aokiji, and they fought for less than a day.
> 
> Yes, "quite evenly" is different than "perfect match".  There are multiple different translations, and some of them don't clearly equate to your interpretation.



Why do you even compare trash with them?Them fighting for 10 days is a testament to their ridiculous stamina that is far above anything we've seen in the series.

They were near equal and Akainu won after an extreme fight.Deal with it.


----------



## Pirao (Oct 15, 2014)

Admirals>Yonko 1st mate seems like a good rule of thumb in most cases.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

@ White Hawk.

I'm not comparing them in terms of power.  My apologies if that's how it came off.

I'm simply saying that we've seen two characters that are more equal to each other fight for less days.  So how long Akainu and Aokiji fought doesn't necessarily dictate how equal they are, other than that they aren't far off from each other in terms of power.

Being close in terms of power is, as I said, open to interpretation.  That doesn't guarantee that Akainu was given extremely high difficulty, although it is possible that he was.


----------



## CaptainCommanderRenji (Oct 15, 2014)

How do you know Ace and Jimbei were closer to each other in strength than Akainu and Aokiji? Are you perhaps a prophet?


----------



## Dellinger (Oct 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ White Hawk.
> 
> I'm not comparing them in terms of power.  My apologies if that's how it came off.
> 
> ...


If they weren't equal how the hell did they fight for 10 days?


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

@ Renji.

Neither Ace nor Jinbe could continue fighting at all when their fight was over.  Akainu was stated to still be capable of finishing off Aokiji, but chose not to.

@ White Hawk.

Even if we assume they were fighting nonstop, that could just be a testament to Aokiji's stamina.

However, I think it's important to establish that we don't know the details of the fight.  Were they fighting during the day time, and agreeing to rest at night?  Were they fighting more strategically?  Were they fighting at close range nonstop?  We really don't know.  Hence it's very presumptuous to say that Aokiji for sure had Akainu just one small blow away from being defeated, clashed 100% equally with Akainu, etc..

It's going to be very interesting to see some main fights later on in the series.  Zoro vs. Mihawk, Luffy vs. Akainu, and Luffy vs. Blackbeard are likely not going to last a day.


----------



## Dellinger (Oct 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ White Hawk.
> 
> Even if we assume they were fighting nonstop, that could just be a testament to Aokiji's stamina.
> 
> ...



I really doubt they were just sitting and resting.There's nothing to suggest that,it was a fight to the death.And of course they were fighting from close range,both of them are far more lethal in such combat.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

You doubt it, but you don't know that they weren't.

There doesn't have to be anything to suggest that in order for it to be a possibility.  Similarly, there's nothing suggesting that it's impossible.

Both are proficient long ranged fighters as well, and given the stakes there's a possibility that they were being more careful than usual.


----------



## barreltheif (Oct 15, 2014)

Ace was able to fight after the 5 days. He was still ready to try to fight WB.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 15, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> And of course they were fighting from close range,both of them are far more lethal in such combat.



Brownbeard noted that the crater which became PH's lake was ground zero for Akainu and Aokiji's duel, so yeah, doubt they were firing long range attacks at each other from the opposite side of the island for ten days.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Ace was able to fight after the 5 days. He was still ready to try to fight WB.



We didn't see that Ace had enough energy to do anything notable.  Plus, if I remember correctly, we don't know how much time passed between his fight with Jinbe and when Whitebeard approached him.


----------



## trance (Oct 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Maybe when it comes to them being close in terms of power, but your interpretation of what close in terms of power means exactly isn't factual.



"Near equal" speaks for itself. Evidence points to Kuzan giving Sakazuki extreme difficulty and giving him the fight of his life.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> *We didn't see that Ace had enough energy to do anything notable.*  Plus, if I remember correctly, we don't know how much time passed between his fight with Jinbe and when Whitebeard approached him.






Trance said:


> "Near equal" speaks for itself. Evidence points to Kuzan giving Sakazuki extreme difficulty and giving him the fight of his life.


Any ideas why fighting for ten days (how many ten day fights have been just high diff?), evenly splitting an island into their own respective element, and giving each other grievous injuries wouldn't tell us how nearly equal those two monsters were?


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

Not necessarily, because being close in terms of power has somewhat of a range in what it could mean.  I've listed what else it could mean and, so far, you have yet to disprove that they serve as possibilities.

@ Tea.

My question was more so what Ace could accomplish results wise with what energy, if any, he had left.

I would also note that in the page you linked, there does seem to be some gap of time between Ace vs. Jinbe and when Whitebeard approaches Ace.

Besides, I also listed Luffy vs. Lucci as an example.


----------



## Luke (Oct 15, 2014)

I highly doubt Oda would have gone out of his way to highlight that they "fought for 10 days" and "were close in power" only to mean that they weren't actually* that* close in power. 

I don't think the author would intentionally mislead so many people.


----------



## trance (Oct 15, 2014)

Because they were specifically mentioned as "near equal" which was further reinforced by their clash on Punk Hazard (albeit, from the narrator's perspective)? And you misunderstand. I'm not trying to "disprove" anything. _What is canon_ is that they are nearly equal with each other. This is a widely accepted manga fact. Your biased outlook leads you to believe something else, so, really, it's up to you to disprove the notion they are _not_ nearly equal.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Tea.
> 
> My question was more so what Ace could accomplish results wise with what energy, if any, he had left.


Making a fire fence that was big enough to separate Whitebeard and him from the Spade Pirate crew for starters.


Gohara said:


> Besides, I also listed Luffy vs. Lucci as an example.


FYI, Luffy and Lucci are not equal. Luffy only got back up the first time after Usopp gave him some Nakama Power, and after the last Rokuogan, Lucci just stood there and used Tekkai instead of dodging Luffy's Jet Gatling (could also have finger jabbed him in the throat after using Rokuogan to make sure Luffy stayed down, but hey, plot armor gonna plot armor).


Luke said:


> I highly doubt Oda would have gone out of his way to highlight that they "fought for 10 days" and "were close in power" only to mean that they weren't actually* that* close in power.
> 
> I don't think the author would intentionally mislead so many people.


Don't ever change.


----------



## Coruscation (Oct 15, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> They fought for ten fucking days. Along with Dorry and Brogy, Akainu and Aokiji are the two most dead equal people in the manga. I'm not even sure what more you would want Oda to do to tell us that they're equal.
> 
> "They were a perfect match for each other in terms of strength, but in the end...there was a victor."
> "There powers were quite evenly matched"



I'm not sure what those translations are, but the most reliable one says:

*"Though the two Admirals were almost equal in strength, one man ultimately emerged victorious."*



I'm assuming you and everyone else here knows what the word "almost" means. So unless you're going to call into question the validity of cnet's translations or you're going to argue that Oda was conveying false information through Jimbei... this is not a matter of debate at all. It's been stated outright they weren't equal. It's as if a statement in the manga were to say "this shirt is dark orange, almost red" and you insist that it is red.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

@ Luke.

It's very possible that Oda didn't intend for anyone to interpret it in the exact way that you have, and as such he may not think he's misleading anyone.  Oda's stated that Moriah fought on par with Kaidou and has shown equal clashes between Mihawk and Vista as well as Doflamingo and Crocodile.  I don't think he cares that much about misleading us to believe two characters are equal.  In fact, he basically has a habit of doing it.

@ Starkiller.

Yes, but that brings me back to my point that there is a range of what close in terms of power means.  It is canon that they are close in terms of power.  It is not canon that your exact interpretation is correct.

What makes you say I'm being biased?  Aokiji is one of my favorite characters and is by far my favorite Admiral.

The burden of proof isn't on me, because I didn't make a claim.  I mentioned a possibility, that you're claiming isn't possible or is extremely unlikely.

@ Tea.

That seems relatively basic for someone with fire powers.  I was referring to what he could accomplish against an opponent with it.  Akainu wasn't just said to have enough energy left to create lava.  He was said to have enough energy left to finish off Aokiji.

Usopp motivated Luffy, but the latter didn't receive a power up.  He just used what little energy he had left to win.


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## Luke (Oct 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Luke.
> 
> It's very possible that Oda didn't intend for anyone to interpret it in the exact way that you have, and as such he may not think he's misleading anyone.  Oda's stated that Moriah fought on par with Kaidou and has shown equal clashes between Mihawk and Vista as well as Doflamingo and Crocodile.  I don't think he cares that much about misleading us to believe two characters are equal.  In fact, he basically has a habit of doing it.



A few random soldiers said Moriah was Kaido's rival. Moriah himself admitted he was defeated easily by Kaido. 

Mihawk fighting Vista for a short amount of time adds nothing to your argument, nor does Doflamingo having a conversation with Crocodile while on top of Jozu. 

Oda clearly has told us the difference between Akainu and Aokiji is extremely small, and has even gone so far as to model an entire island half and half based off their fight.


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## trance (Oct 15, 2014)

>Compares Akainu vs. Aokiji to Doffy vs. Croc



We're done here.


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## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

???

I was using Doflamingo vs. Crocodile as an example of Oda showing us equal clashes.  I don't see how that's an invalid example.

@ Luke.

Those examples aren't meant to demonstrate my point that Akainu and Aokiji might not be as equal as you're suggesting them to be.  They're meant to demonstrate that Oda likely doesn't care what two characters we believe are equal, even when they aren't.  Indeed, it's because of those clashes that some people do think Vista is equal or at least on Mihawk's level and that Crocodile is equal or at least close to Doflamingo's level.

Oda only told us that they're close in terms of power.  He didn't tell us your exact interpretation to be correct.  Punk Hazard's climate makes equal sense in both of our points.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I was using Doflamingo vs. Crocodile as an example of Oda showing us equal clashes.  I don't see how that's an invalid example.


I take it you've never heard of outliers...


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## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

Doflamingo vs. Crocodile isn't the only equal clash we've seen.


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## Luke (Oct 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Those examples aren't meant to demonstrate my point that Akainu and Aokiji might not be as equal as you're suggesting them to be.  They're meant to demonstrate that Oda likely doesn't care what two characters we believe are equal, even when they aren't.  Indeed, it's because of those clashes that some people do think Vista is equal or at least on Mihawk's level and that Crocodile is equal or at least close to Doflamingo's level.
> 
> Oda only told us that they're close in terms of power.  He didn't tell us your exact interpretation to be correct.  Punk Hazard's climate makes equal sense in both of our points.



But in this case, Oda has literally gone out of his way to do everything to point towards them being equal. 

He has not done anything of the sort in the cases of Crocodile and Vista. Also, I'm pretty sure no one thinks Crocodile is on Doflamingo's level. 

Oda said "they were almost equal in strength." He also split an island half and half between their powers to show how close they were to each other. Their fight lasted 10 days. Both suffered very bad wounds, and Akainu barely won. 

All of this points to them being extremely close to each other in power.


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## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

Oda has stated that they are close in terms of power.  The details such as how long they fought and Punk Hazard's climate are not exclusive to either of what we're saying.  Said details don't necessarily point in favor of what you believe to be the case.

While it isn't common, I have seen people suggest Crocodile is on or close to Doflamingo's level.


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## Jellal Fernandes (Oct 15, 2014)

Luke said:


> He has not done anything of the sort in the cases of Crocodile and Vista. Also, I'm pretty sure no one thinks Crocodile is on Doflamingo's level.



I disagree I think Croc would give DD a very good fight and if we saw Croc some more you're impression of him will change.


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## Captain Altintop (Feb 9, 2015)

Fuji very high to extreme diff since I see him slightly weaker than the C3.


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## Furinji Saiga (Feb 9, 2015)

Fujitora with medium-high difficulty


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