# Minato > Kakashi + Gai + Naruto confirmed



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 25, 2012)

Seriously, Tobi uses nothing but taijutsu and phasing and yet they couldn't land a single blow.

Hirashin is really too powerful. It makes the difference.


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## Jad (Jul 25, 2012)

Gai wasn't even using Gates :/


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## Seraphiel (Jul 25, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Seriously, Tobi uses nothing but taijutsu and phasing and yet they couldn't land a single blow.
> 
> Hirashin is really too powerful. It makes the difference.



Minato knew he couldn't do anything against Tobi once his V2 faint failed to kill him though.

But I agree so far he was more impressive.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 25, 2012)

And Naruto didn't use Biju Mode or his full strength.


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## Phemt (Jul 25, 2012)

That was plot, not Hirashin.

And this Tobi > that Tobi.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Jul 25, 2012)

The Tobi that fought Minato was younger, less experienced, and lacked the Rinnegan.


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## Kotoamatsukami (Jul 25, 2012)

Of course it does, he can warp around in lightspeed....thats probably the only thing that is capable of hurting Tobi since it makes Minato faster than himself.


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## handsock (Jul 25, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Seriously, Tobi uses nothing but taijutsu and phasing and yet they couldn't land a single blow.
> 
> Hirashin is really too powerful. It makes the difference.



Yeah just wait til those 3 ninja pass it down to Naruto. Using 2 shadow clones to perform it, he'll be unstoppable.


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## Mr Horrible (Jul 25, 2012)

The fight isn't over yet son.


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## Addy (Jul 25, 2012)

yeah, naruto and the rest suck ass and i thought naruto was stupid against nagato because of itachi but no, he sucks


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## Marsala (Jul 25, 2012)

It's the difference in speed. As fast as Naruto is, he still isn't quite a match for instantaneous teleportation.


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## Addy (Jul 25, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Naruto didn't use Biju Mode or his full strength.


because his full strength and BM and damage the "gothrough" tobi?


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## Federer (Jul 25, 2012)

I'd say Minato simply surprised Tobi back then. 

Tobi is now, much more cautious about his opponents and obviously more powerful than ever.


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## Synn (Jul 25, 2012)

Tobi that fought Minato didn't have Rinnegan.

Minato isn't even near the combined level of Naruto + Kakashi + Gai.


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## tnorbo (Jul 25, 2012)

this was the best minato hype in a while. tobi was dominating without even using his rinnegan, it really put minato on a pedestal


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## Melas (Jul 25, 2012)

Sutol said:


> That was plot, not Hirashin.
> 
> And this Tobi > that Tobi.



The same arguments. Dude everything including Tobi's powers is plot.

As for OP, Minato destroyed everything Tobi tried including his control over Kurama and he did in real time. He was at a different level. Naruto still has ways to go and he will reach there in this fight.


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## Synn (Jul 25, 2012)

tnorbo said:


> this was the best minaot hype in a while. tobi was dominating without even using his rinnegan, it really put minato on a pedestal



The same Minato who was overwhelmed by a young and inexperienced Bee, in terms of speed.


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## Skywalker (Jul 25, 2012)

Minato would've been dead right now.


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## tnorbo (Jul 25, 2012)

Synn said:


> The same Minato who was overwhelmed by a young and inexperienced Bee, in terms of speed.



when did this *ever* happen


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## PikaCheeka (Jul 25, 2012)

This thread is too funny.  Never thought I'd see so many people who like Minato putting him down.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 25, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> Minato knew he couldn't do anything against Tobi once his V2 faint failed to kill him though.
> 
> But I agree so far he was more impressive.



Not really. Minato had to go back to the village to stop the Kyuubi. Kyuubi was always the higher priority, which is why Minato didn't pursue Tobi. He broke the summoning contract and went straight for the Kyuubi.


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## Synn (Jul 25, 2012)

tnorbo said:


> when did this *ever* happen



When Minato faced the Raikage, remember?


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## Seraphoenix (Jul 25, 2012)

To beat Tobi you have to outsmart him. Raw power is useless. That's why Minato beat him


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## Hermansen (Jul 25, 2012)

Sutol said:


> And this Tobi > that Tobi.



Tobi also uses DAT war fan now. Most awesome thing in the chapter


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 25, 2012)

Synn said:


> When Minato faced the Raikage, remember?



You are aware that Bee was in a very dangerous position, right? All Minato had to do was let go of that kunai and reposition himself by teleporting to that same kunai. Minato was in control of that situation.


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## The Fool (Jul 25, 2012)

Synn said:


> When Minato faced the Raikage, remember?



Ummm no.  The only thing Bee did was get tagged and then pull his dagger. Minato blitzed Raikage and then mercifully decided not to rasengan Bee in the back of the head.


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## MangaR (Jul 25, 2012)

Well yeah. Tobi is not using anything other than S/T and a weapon. The only change was weapon, figthing Minato was better with more AOE attack, so he used chains. Fighting with this guys he is using fan that would be useless verse someone like Minato.
Minato had to think about Kyuubi while fighting Tobi. Team Naruto need to think about Gedo Mazo.

I am not saying 4-th > this team, for now they are equal. But team Naruto probably will surpass Minato.

P.S. Its a shame Minato needed to deal with Kyubi when he could just teleport to Tobi(mark was still present) and fight him to the end.


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## Shattering (Jul 25, 2012)

To be fair, this Tobi seems to be much stronger, the fan movement it's like if it was alive  and Minato's hirashin was the perfect technique no deal with Tobi.

That Tobi + Fan would have done a better job against Minato, but the true is the plot was too strong in that battle to give Tobi a chance...


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## Synn (Jul 25, 2012)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> You are aware that Bee was in a very dangerous position, right? All Minato had to do was let go of that kunai and reposition himself by teleporting to that same kunai. Minato was in control of that situation.



In control of the situation, you say?

he could only maintain the S/T jutsu for only 5 mins

Bee was ready to stab Minato, too.



The Fool said:


> Ummm no.  The only thing Bee did was get tagged and then pull his dagger. Minato blitzed Raikage and then mercifully decided not to rasengan Bee in the back of the head.



It doesn't matter how he did it. He still outsmarted Minato, who apparently outsmarted Tobi.

So by the logic of this thread, Bee > Minato.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2012)

It's possible that Tobi improved his skills over the last 17 years. Minato's speed being countered better by Bee than old Tobi indicates that current Tobi is a whole 'nother beast.

I'm surprised people still think Minato is stronger than Naruto, let alone Naruto with the support of elite ninja with the Mangekyō Sharingan and Eight Gates in their arsenals.​


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 25, 2012)

Shattering said:


> To be fair, this Tobi seems to be much stronger, the fan movement it's like if it was alive  and Minato's hirashin was the perfect technique no deal with Tobi.
> 
> That Tobi + Fan would have done a better job against Minato, but the true is the plot was too strong in that battle to give Tobi a chance...



That wouldn't have made any difference in Tobi's fight with Minato.


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## tnorbo (Jul 25, 2012)

Synn said:


> It doesn't matter how he did it. He still outsmarted Minato, who apparently outsmarted Tobi.
> 
> So by the logic of this thread, Bee > Minato.



first of all minato solo'd raikage and bee

secondly tobi over powered naruto + team, and minato overpowered him. it has nothing to do with out smarting some one.


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## Melas (Jul 25, 2012)

Synn said:


> It doesn't matter how he did it. He still outsmarted Minato, who apparently outsmarted Tobi.
> 
> So by the logic of this thread, Bee > Minato.



Minato did more than merely outsmart Tobi.

He removed his control over Kurama and banged a rasengan into him. There was nothing left for Tobi to do save retreat.

If you find the two situations comparable, that your call.


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## Golden Circle (Jul 25, 2012)

No shit guys. An entire chapter to accomplish less than what Minato did in a page.

This thread is going to end well. I've got my popcorn ready.


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## Synn (Jul 25, 2012)

tnorbo said:


> first of all minato solo'd raikage and bee



Lol, this "argument" is laughable.



tnorbo said:


> secondly tobi over powered naruto + team, and minato overpowered him. it has nothing to do with out smarting some one.



Again, you are comparing two different things.

Tobi was younger and inexperienced. This Tobi has the Rinnegan, which undoubtedly grants him more power in some way. That's something you're gonna have to deal with.

This is like comparing Part 1 Kakashi and Part 2 Kakashi. >______>


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## bearzerger (Jul 25, 2012)

So where is the guy with who kept telling me that Naruto had long since surpassed Minato while I argued that Naruto would surpass his dad by defeating Tobi?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2012)

Rainbow Dash said:


> No shit guys. An entire chapter to accomplish less than what Minato did in a page.



It actually took Minato several chapters and a few disgraceful counters from when Tobi first stole his firstborn.​


bearzerger said:


> So where is the guy with who kept telling me that Naruto had long since surpassed Minato while I argued that Naruto would surpass his dad by defeating Tobi?



Naruto far and away surpassed Minato in the Rasengan, Toad-fu, and has a mastered Kurama to boot. Come on.​


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## J★J♥ (Jul 25, 2012)

Stupidity of op is overwhelming


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## Tengu (Jul 25, 2012)

tnorbo said:


> this was the best minato hype in a while. tobi was dominating without even using his rinnegan, it really put minato on a pedestal



What about Konan then, she was the closest one to kill Tobi.


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## Melas (Jul 25, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> So where is the guy with who kept telling me that Naruto had long since surpassed Minato while I argued that Naruto would surpass his dad by defeating Tobi?



This was a given even from a basic literary sense.

People really underestimate how awesome S/T is and how beautifully Mianto used them.


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## tnorbo (Jul 25, 2012)

Synn said:


> Lol, this "argument" is laughable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



he hasn't even had to use rinnegan yet

kihsi has yet to give any indication that this tobi is any different than the one wh fought minato.


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## The Fool (Jul 25, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> It actually took Minato several chapters from when Tobi first stole his firstborn.



The point is Minato had zero knowledge of Tobi and defeated him within a few panels once the actual fight began. Besides that it was a sneak attack initiated by Tobi. Naruto, Kakashi, Gai and Bee all are aware of Tobi's abilities (prior knowledge) and are working as a team and they cannot even land a meaningful blow. 

Nevermind that Minato tagged Tobi and could have tracked him at any point had he chosen not to go back and protect the village.


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## TH4N4T0S (Jul 25, 2012)

Naruto and company have been less impressive (so far), but it should be noted that Tobi is probably more cautious now. 



Synn said:


> In control of the situation, you say?
> 
> Tobi around.
> 
> Bee was ready to stab Minato, too.



Yes. And Minato was about to stab Bee in the head. Had they continued...

At best, it was a draw. It's foolish to claim that one "overwhelmed" the other.


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## Jad (Jul 25, 2012)

Hate to break everyone happiness but Gai hasn't even used Gates yet.


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## sasutachi (Jul 25, 2012)

so konan and danozu's guard are stronger then this trio.


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## Louis-954 (Jul 25, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Seriously, Tobi uses nothing but taijutsu and phasing and yet they couldn't land a single blow.
> 
> Hirashin is really too powerful. It makes the difference.


This Tobi is a lot more powerful than the one Minato faced off against.


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## Seraphiel (Jul 25, 2012)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Not really. Minato had to go back to the village to stop the Kyuubi. Kyuubi was always the higher priority, which is why Minato didn't pursue Tobi. He broke the summoning contract and went straight for the Kyuubi.



He flat out stated you would need a special power to beat him, he realized once his last trick(V2) failed to kill he couldn't win anymore. No need to sugar coat it and no need to be ashamed of it.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2012)

tnorbo said:


> kihsi has yet to give any indication that this tobi is any different than the one wh fought minato.



Other than being linked to the Jūbi and having 17 years of growth.​


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 25, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> He flat out stated you would need a special power to beat him, he realized once his last trick(V2) failed to kill he couldn't win anymore. No need to sugar coat it and no need to be ashamed of it.



Oh please, Shiki Fuujin would've ended Tobi. Who knows what other hax seals Minato had.


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## bearzerger (Jul 25, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> It actually took Minato several chapters and a few disgraceful counters from when Tobi first stole his firstborn.​
> 
> 
> Naruto far and away surpassed Minato in the Rasengan, Toad-fu, and has a mastered Kurama to boot. Come on.​



However, overall Minato is apparently still ahead, because of his smarts his skill and Hiraishin. Naruto is superior in power of that there is no doubt. But a shinobi is more than just power.



Melas said:


> This was a given even from a basic literary sense.
> 
> People really underestimate how awesome S/T is and how beautifully Mianto used them.



Yeah that was my argument as well. I keep saying that to surpass his father Naruto will have to do the one thing Minato failed at. Defeating Tobi for good.


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## The Fool (Jul 25, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> He flat out stated you would need a special power to beat him, he realized once his last trick(V2) failed to kill he couldn't win anymore. No need to sugar coat it and no need to be ashamed of it.



Maybe you are looking too much into that. I think he realized that Tobi is not mortal after he rasengened him in the head and Tobi still survived. He should have died. That doesn't mean that in a straight fight Tobi was better than Minato. In fact, the opposite seems to be the case. 

But at any rate this argument kind of favors Minato, since it took him a few panels to figure out what Naruto and company still do not understand. You can't defeat Tobi with physical attacks. Based upon what we've seen so far Tobi is definitely some kind of Zetsu clone amalgam, i.e he can spontaneously regenerate. Tobi cannot be killed by a physical attack. He can be damaged, but that's about it.


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## tnorbo (Jul 25, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> Other than being linked to the Jūbi and having 17 years of growth.​



he has yet to summon juubi. and what makes you think he's grown in those 17 years? villians tend to stagnate.


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## Arles Celes (Jul 25, 2012)

Hiraishin is extremely deadly when one doesn't know how it works. Anyone can be caught off guard.

Unpredictable suprise attacks are the most effectives ones in the manga. Like Kabuto's surpise attack out of "Oro's" mouth that he used to cut Itachi in half.

Sometimes when a move is haxxed enough even an extremely smart shinobi can be caught off guard. Still...they lose a lot of their effectiveness if the target survives the first attack and figures out how said jutsu works.


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## Synn (Jul 25, 2012)

tnorbo said:


> he hasn't even had to use rinnegan yet
> 
> kihsi has yet to give any indication that this tobi is any different than the one wh fought minato.



I didn't say he used his Rinnegan, did I? But claiming that the fact that he now has the Rinnegan doesn't change anything is foolish...

Give us indications? He's more experienced now, what more do you need? Oh God. >_______<



TH4N4T0S said:


> Yes. And Minato was about to stab Bee in the head. Had they continued...
> 
> At best, it was a draw. It's foolish to claim that one "overwhelmed" the other.



I'm just using the same logic that OP used.



sasutachi said:


> so konan and danozu's guard are stronger then this trio.



Apparently, they are. LOL


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## Saunion (Jul 25, 2012)

I swear every fucking time Naruto struggles in his fights you've got desperate threads like this popping up. It's pathetic. 

Can't wait for the next chapter 571 to see the delicious tears overflowing.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 25, 2012)

Facts :


There is no indicatiOn that tobi improved over the years.
Tobi hasnt used anything different than he used against minato aside from the fan which honestly doesnt make ahuge difference.

Conclusion : this three man team isnt as capable as minato.


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## bearzerger (Jul 25, 2012)

Arles Celes said:


> Hiraishin is extremely deadly when one doesn't know how it works. Anyone can be caught off guard.
> 
> Unpredictable suprise attacks are the most effectives ones in the manga. Like Kabuto's surpise attack out of "Oro's" mouth that he used to cut Itachi in half.
> 
> Sometimes when a move is haxxed enough even an extremely smart shinobi can be caught off guard. Still...they lose a lot of their effectiveness if the target survives the first attack and figures out how said jutsu works.



Even if you know how it works it's still haxxed. To fight Minato equally you need to have one of three things a reaction speed as fast as Minato's or some kind of super sensing ability or some kind of area control which can attack and defend against all manner of attacks at the same time.


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## tnorbo (Jul 25, 2012)

Saunion said:


> I swear every fucking time Naruto struggles in his fights you've got desperate threads like this popping up. It's pathetic.
> 
> Can't wait for the next chapter 571 to see the delicious tears overflowing.



I don't think anyone is saying minato > bm naruto. its just people are surprised considering how many people thought rm naruto > him.


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## Saunion (Jul 25, 2012)

tnorbo said:


> I don't think anyone is saying minato > bm naruto. its just people are surprised considering how many people thought rm naruto > him.



RM Naruto is stronger than Minato. 

Come at me bro.


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## Ranma Saotome (Jul 25, 2012)

Tobi has definitely improved since then, but by how much it is difficult to judge. We have someone like Kakashi, for example, who we definitely know worked his ass off training, and admitted that he'd grown rusty to boot. However, it wasn't a lack of power that made Minato stomp Tobi. I'd actually say Tobi had the better arsenal overall, but meh, that's just my opinion. Point is Minato outsmarted him. From that stand point if you stripped the knowledge they have now away and Tobi doesn't use his Rinnegan offensively... who is to say that Minato wouldn't simply outsmart him again?


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## Mio (Jul 25, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Facts :
> 
> 
> There is no indicatiOn that tobi improved over the years.
> ...


Nah, that fan is boss. Would have blocked Minato's Rasengan effortlessly.


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## Arles Celes (Jul 25, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> Even if you know how it works it's still haxxed. To fight Minato equally you need to have one of three things a reaction speed as fast as Minato's or some kind of super sensing ability or some kind of area control which can attack and defend against all manner of attacks at the same time.



Well yeah, if one isn't incredibly smart and has great reflexes/speed it is still useless.

That is why someone like Ei who wasn't shown as smart as Shika or Itachi wouldn't be able to defeat Minato even with knowledge.

On the other hand someone like Shika who isn't all that fast and does not have godlike refexes would still be unable to follow any plans to counter Hiraishin.


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## Louis-954 (Jul 25, 2012)

> There is no indicatiOn that tobi improved over the years.
> Tobi hasnt used anything different than he used against minato aside from the fan which honestly doesnt make ahuge difference.


You mean besides the fact that he has a Rinnegan?


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 25, 2012)

Lmao at all these people trying to downplay Minato with these lame excuses. 

Tobi's not using anything he didn't use against Minato, so stop with the lame excuse like Tobi's much more powerful than before because while he is he isn't using any of that so called new power against Naruto, Kakashi and Guy.


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## vikramx (Jul 25, 2012)

Just a note, all the power in the world is meaningless if you cant land a hit on the target. Thats exactly the problem Gai + Kakashi + Bee + RM Naruto is facing against Tobi atm. 

RM Naruto still seems lacking in the speed department when compared to Minato. 

As for comparing the situations, I would say the current group is in a more favourable battle situation than what Minato was in.


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## Hazuki (Jul 25, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Seriously, Tobi uses nothing but taijutsu and phasing and yet they couldn't land a single blow.
> 
> Hirashin is really too powerful. It makes the difference.



tobi wasn't as serious against minato 
and he didn't have to controle a bijuu in a fight to destroy konoha 

i think we can't even compare the situation

tobi is fighting naruto , kakashi and gai , while he was just wasting time against minato


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## Final Jutsu (Jul 25, 2012)

Lol, I'm enjoying the insane damage control responses.  Minato


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 25, 2012)

Hazuki said:


> tobi wasn't as serious against minato
> and he didn't have to controle a bijuu in a fight to destroy konoha
> 
> i think we can't even compare the situation
> ...



Another lame excuse. You people and your damage control posts are completely pathetic


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 25, 2012)

Hazuki said:


> tobi wasn't as serious against minato
> and he didn't have to controle a bijuu in a fight to destroy konoha
> 
> i think we can't even compare the situation
> ...



He was serious. He was actively trying to suck Minato into his dimension. He failed and ate a Rasengan.


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## Mateush (Jul 25, 2012)

Konan > Minato > Kakashi + Gai + Naruto


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## Orochimaru800 (Jul 25, 2012)

I love how people always make excuses for everything. The denial is so great.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 25, 2012)

Louis-954 said:


> You mean besides the fact that he has a Rinnegan?



when did he use his rinnegan ?


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 25, 2012)

Naruto will only surpass Minato once he defeats Tobi, just like Sasuke will once and for all surpass Itachi by putting down Orochimaru for good, then when they fight each other they'll surpass the VOTE


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## Star★Platinum (Jul 25, 2012)

You're forgetting they all know Tobi's power...


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 25, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Bare in mind Tobi didn't have a fan, Rinnegan, etc.



Why do people keep bringing up the rinnegan?

He's not even freaking using it, so it's not even a valid point


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## shintebukuro (Jul 25, 2012)

I think the warfan has definitely served as a powerup to Tobi.

But, the OP still has a point.


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## tnorbo (Jul 25, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Bare in mind Tobi didn't have a fan, Rinnegan, etc.



he had the chains back then, plus he's not even using the rinnegan in this fight.


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## Louis-954 (Jul 25, 2012)

> when did he use his rinnegan ?


Hmmm Idk, when he summoned Gedo Mazo? When he said he'd use the Human Paths powers to obtain information from Yamato? Or maybe when he was controlling six Jinchuuriki and sharing fields of vision with them?

Tobi is quite obviously more powerful than he was when he fought Minato. Hence the reason Kabuto was wary of challenging him, or more specifically his Rinnegan.


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## Lord Valgaav (Jul 25, 2012)

Minato is regarded as the greatest genius ever so what'd you expect? His legend lives on


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 25, 2012)

Louis-954 said:


> Hmmm Idk, when he summoned Gedo Mazo? When he said he'd use the Human Paths powers to obtain information from Yamato? Or maybe when he was controlling six Jinchuuriki and sharing fields of vision with them?



So you bring up the times that had NOTHING to do with this fight? Real great logic there 

Has Tobi used the rinnegan specifically against Naruto, Kakashi and Guy? No, so please just stop with the ignorant statements.

Tobi's not using ANYTHING against Naruto, Kakashi and Guy that he didn't use against Minato.


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## Helios (Jul 25, 2012)

Aren't you rushing a bit?

This was the first chapter of a battle that will take a while to be finished.It is only natural that the adversaries will appear to be equal at first.


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## Corax (Jul 25, 2012)

It took 3 chapters for Minato to land a hit on Tobi. Naruto,Kakashi and Gai just only getting started. And to be fair it took only 1 chapter for Fu and Torune to wound Tobi. But I doubt that they are any better than Minato.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 25, 2012)

Corax said:


> It took 3 chapters for Minato to land a hit on Tobi. Naruto,Kakashi and Gai just only getting started. And to be fair it took only 1 chapter for Fu and Torune to wound Tobi. But I doubt that they are any better than Minato.



More like 1. He landed the hit on Tobi in the same chapter that they started fighting, which was chapter 502 "The 4th hokage goes to war"


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## Louis-954 (Jul 25, 2012)

> So you bring up the times that had NOTHING to do with this fight? Real great logic there


Grimmjow specifically asked "When did he use the Rinnegan?".



> Has Tobi used the rinnegan specifically against Naruto, Kakashi and Guy? No, so please just stop with the ignorant statements.


Who's being ignorant? You're the one who can't even infer that Tobi is stronger than when he fought against Minato. That was his entire reason for going to Amegakure, increasing his battle power.

I honestly don't give a shit if Minato is better than Naruto, Gai, Kakashi, and B combined. I'm here saying it's absolutely silly that you you think Tobi isn't stronger now than he was then.

Do you think Fuu and Torune or Konan are better than them too? Different fights, different circumstances.


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## Sαge (Jul 25, 2012)

Minato had better tools, simple as. 

Naruto and Co. are going about countering Tobi the same way Minato did, the only difference is Minato had a technique that allowed him to travel millions of times faster than anything Naruto and Co. could produce. The perfect counter to Tobi's technique.

But yes, stooping down to the Library's level of ignorance, Jiraiya>Konan>Minato>Tobi>Naruto & Co.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 25, 2012)

Louis-954 said:


> Grimmjow specifically asked "When did he use the Rinnegan?".



Very well.



> Who's being ignorant? You're the one who can't even infer that Tobi is stronger than when he fought against Minato. That was his entire reason for going to Amegakure, increasing his battle power.



Ummmm I admitted that Tobi's more powerful than when he fought Minato, so maybe you should actually go back and READ. But the fact is that he isn't using anything against Naruto, Kakashi and Guy that he didn't use against Minato.



> I honestly don't give a shit if Minato is better than Naruto, Gai, Kakashi, and B combined. I'm here saying it's absolutely silly that you you think Tobi isn't stronger now than he was then.



Read above


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## Louis-954 (Jul 25, 2012)

Sαge said:


> Minato had better tools, simple as.
> 
> Naruto and Co. are going about countering Tobi the same way Minato did, the only difference is Minato had a technique that allowed him to travel millions of times faster than anything Naruto and Co. could produce. The perfect counter to Tobi's technique.
> 
> But yes, stooping down to the Library's level of ignorance, Jiraiya>Konan>Minato>Tobi>Naruto & Co.


You forgot to add Fuu and Torune, they managed to take an arm! They are clearly superior to Naruto, Kakashi, Gai, and B.


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## Corax (Jul 25, 2012)

> More like 1. He landed the hit on Tobi in the same chapter that they started fighting, which was chapter 502 "The 4th hokage goes to war"


But he had 2 chapters worth of time to analyze it. Tobi used his jutsu first time in chapter 500.


----------



## Louis-954 (Jul 25, 2012)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Very well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then there's no point in debating further since there's nothing we really disagree on.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 25, 2012)

Corax said:


> But he had 2 chapters worth of time to analyze it. Tobi used his jutsu first time in chapter 500.



He didn't start to analyze anything until he actually started fighting Tobi, which again was in chapter 502.


----------



## Saunion (Jul 25, 2012)

Corax said:


> It took 3 chapters for Minato to land a hit on Tobi. Naruto,Kakashi and Gai just only getting started. And to be fair it took only 1 chapter for Fu and Torune to wound Tobi. But I doubt that they are any better than Minato.



Very ggod point! Proove that Fu adn Turone >>> Minoto!!! 



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> More like 1. He landed the hit on Tobi in the same chapter that they started fighting, which was chapter 502 "The 4th hokage goes to war"



LOL DAMAEG CONTROL 

Fun and Torone >>>>>>> Minoto 100% prooved


----------



## Karachi (Jul 25, 2012)

Help me out guys, why does Tobi even move? He can't be hurt physically, he could demoralize the team by just giving them minute chances at nabbing him but being intangible. I get that he has to stop them stopping him but if he knows (follow me here) they know his tricks, doesn't that make this fight easier for him?


----------



## Corax (Jul 25, 2012)

Because he can stay intangible only for 5 minutes.


----------



## Karachi (Jul 25, 2012)

Corax said:


> Because he can stay intangible only for 5 minutes.


 
Precisely, he's not exactly limited. I was just thinking he doesn't need to fight at all, just go intangible and then tangible again as he chooses and when he is permitted. They won't attack for 5 minutes straight (perhaps), will get tired and are more likely to make mistakes. I'm not deliberately trying to be dim, i just think simpler is better. Would be less exciting for us but more exciting for him


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 25, 2012)

Do you know what i think?
I believe Minato was one of the first people to hit Tobi with a counter attack.  Naruto, Gai, fu etc. have all done EXACTLY the same thing (feinting attacks etc) and countering and it hasn't worked, because he's wised up to the trick, so he counter feints his moves.
He could have simply been less careful back then, as he didn't fear anyone cottoning on to his movements not to mention he knows, they know about his phasing ability, and thus will be more careful as a result.


----------



## TheCuban (Jul 25, 2012)

Don't be stupid. This Tobi is stronger than the one who controlled the Kyuubi. Minato had one shot to surprise him and these guys haven't had this chance yet.


----------



## Ezekial (Jul 25, 2012)

Meh pre Rinnegan Tobi tanked Minato's best attack.

Rinnegan Tobi would butt rape Minato, GTFO


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 25, 2012)

Oh the damage control is great


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 25, 2012)

Apparently Fu and Torune> The team to, as they took his arm in one chapter


----------



## Raventhal (Jul 25, 2012)

Lol, this is dumb.  Minato simply had a technique and intelligence to counter Tobi.  He used a secret technique(though how you instant transmit to higher level I don't know) while baiting Tobi to attack.  Landed his signature and a seal on him.  Naruto and Bee can destroy mountains but it means nothing if you have nothing to hit the guy with.


----------



## HunterXHunted (Jul 25, 2012)

this site is full of immature children. minato had the perfect counter to tobi's jutsu. does that mean he's better that this 3 man team? no. it means he had the rite tool to get the job done. just like konan and her tags and just like torune and his bugs.


----------



## Glutamminajr (Jul 25, 2012)

To hit Tobi you first of all must be instantaneous.Minato with Hiraishin and his reflexes was just that.In fact the team work was good but slow,too slow against someone like Tobi.
So in theory and Imho they must:
-force him to use his intangibility for more than 5 minutes then attack him(but they don't know this...yet,sadly);
-have a sort of instantaneous attack that Tobi can't defend against in time even with his S/T;
-Some Hiraishin like jutsu.
-let Tobi begin sucking someone and in the meanwhile hit him.When he has to suck someone in his dimension he has to be tangible according to Konan(but they don't know this too and it's too dangerous to try btw)or make him suck more than one clone full of explosive tags...(this one is too farfetched so cancel itXD)

If they have not one of the things or the knowledge i mention above then yes they could be strong all they want but Tobi will not be touched by them.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 25, 2012)

Tobi doesn't have his legendary chains anymore. 
Thats a huge debuff


----------



## JPongo (Jul 25, 2012)

Tobi stabbed and choked Konan to death.

Tobi warped Fuu and Torune and later snapped one of their necks.

Naruto and company still can't land a good solid hit.

Minato outsmarted and outmaneuvered Tobi with an "inferior" S/T (lol), busted his back with a powerful rasengan tearing off Tobi's arm, tagged him, stabbed him and yanked kyuubi control in just about one fell swoop. Then Tobi RAN AWAY.

As you were haters, lol.

Minato > ur fave.

Believe IT!!


----------



## lathia (Jul 25, 2012)

Kakashi, Gai and Naruto aren't the only ones. People just like to underestimate Pre-Rinnegan Tobi. He can solo your fave with and without knowledge if you're not fast enough to catch him. S/T > All



Corax said:


> It took 3 chapters for Minato to land a hit on Tobi. Naruto,Kakashi and Gai just only getting started. And to be fair it took only 1 chapter for Fu and Torune to wound Tobi. But I doubt that they are any better than Minato.



You confused attacks for "chapters." There was 3 actual battle exchanges in Minato vs Tobi. 


An ambush by Tobi (Minato escapes)
A double exchange (Minato confirmed his theory)
Another double exchange (Hiraishin Step 2 swag)

All in less than half a chapter.


----------



## Deleted member 45015 (Jul 25, 2012)

Tobi was a lot cockier against Minato and paid for it.

This time he's had some close escapes, but evaded harm. Naruto is considered _at least_ as fast as Minato now.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 25, 2012)

Gaelek_13 said:


> Tobi was a lot cockier against Minato and paid for it.
> 
> This time he's had some close escapes, but evaded harm. Naruto is considered _at least_ as fast as Minato now.



You can't be "as fast" as someone with instantaneous teleportation. It's literally impossible.


----------



## ? (Jul 25, 2012)

Minato is god.

EDIT: Oh, god. The damage control in this thread 

I love you guys.


----------



## Namikaze Minato Flash (Jul 25, 2012)

Synn said:


> The same Minato who was overwhelmed by a young and inexperienced Bee, in terms of speed.



That was a double KO moment at best, homie. And even then he was still deemed superior to them both in that same term of speed...

And it's funny that all these people are talking about Tobi's progression (major tools he's not even using, though), yet think Minato would remain stagnate in his abilities up to this point or couldn't devise another strategy to get past Tobi's intangibility. What Gai deduced as the best way to defeat Tobi (feints and out maneuvering) was something the Fourth executed while the three of them failed.  I know the fight isn't over, but props need to be given to the Yellow Flash instead of these bullshit "Tobi wasn't serious back then" and "he has the Rinnegan now" (what Rinnegan jutsu did he use during this exchange again?) responses...


----------



## Saunion (Jul 25, 2012)

HunterXHunted said:


> this site is full of immature children. minato had the perfect counter to tobi's jutsu. does that mean he's better that this 3 man team? no. it means he had the rite tool to get the job done. just like konan and her tags and just like torune and his bugs.



NO!!!  There's no such things as matchups or context!!! Minato is teh strongerest even though I actually don't care about Minato at all and my ulterior motives couldn't be more transparent!


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 25, 2012)

If Tobi has knowledge he can make even Minato's V2 Hiraishin useless. He simply has to feign an attack and while a kunai passess through his head he does not turn tangible and so Mianto's rasengan go through him without hurting Tobi.

Still, Minato was able to escape from everything Tobi threw at him back then and would probably remain able to do so again(unless the rinnegan was brought to the fight).

The haxx in Tobi's s/t is that it is impossible to figure out when he is still tangible and when he is not. By being able to stay intangible for 5 minutes non stop Tobi can do LOTS of feigned attacks only to attack for real when the opponent had grown attuned to Tobi always faking his attacks.


----------



## crystalblade13 (Jul 25, 2012)

no dat fan. thread #2 invalid.


----------



## αce (Jul 25, 2012)

1. No
2. Tobi was forced to go tangible against Minato
3. No


----------



## iJutsu (Jul 25, 2012)

Gai's nunchuks cracked Tobi's mask. The same mask that Naruto headbutted with full power.

Doesn't mean Gai > Kakashi and Naruto, or Nunchuks > powered-up Naruto.


----------



## αce (Jul 25, 2012)

Minato is just better equipped to fight Tobi, because you can't overcome his intangibility with speed. Which is why he didn't just rasengan him when Tobi tagged him in that face off. He had to resort to instantaneous speed at point blank range so that Tobi couldn't react.

Tobi is fucking broken.


----------



## Jad (Jul 25, 2012)

iJutsu said:


> Gai's nunchuks cracked Tobi's mask. The same mask that Naruto headbutted with full power.
> 
> Doesn't mean Gai > Kakashi and Naruto, or Nunchuks > powered-up Naruto.



Scan of Gai cracking the mask.


----------



## Nuuskis (Jul 25, 2012)

Minato did outsmart Tobi yeah, but it's way too early to say that Minato > Naruto, Kakashi and Guy at this moment.

Tobi has clearly learned from that moment when Minato managed to hit him TWICE. But Naruto can't put seal markings on Tobi, so he could teleport to Tobi.
In that way, Naruto is still slower than Minato.

Besides this Tobi fighting Naruto here is fully equipped & prepared for battle, Tobi that Minato was fighting was not.


----------



## Red Raptor (Jul 25, 2012)

I wonder if people read the manga purely to hate on the characters in the manga they are reading week after week after week.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Jul 25, 2012)

Red Raptor said:


> I wonder if people read the manga purely to hate on the characters in the manga they are reading week after week after week.



That's NF all over ~ Welcome to NF, enjoy your stay.


----------



## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Jul 25, 2012)

Last time i checked, minato beat Tobi using "Hirashin" not taijutsu

while on the other hand, Naruto, gai and kakashi are only using taijutsu.

gai is not using gates,

Naruto is not using BM,

and kakashi is not using kamui on tobi,

so why is everyone so impressed about tobi in this taijustu only battle?


----------



## G-Man (Jul 25, 2012)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> You can't be "as fast" as someone with instantaneous teleportation. It's literally impossible.



Actually, you can.  Happened in an issue of Flash.  Granted, Flash could normally go faster than lightspeed, and in said issue he was borrowing kinetic energy from Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Golden Age Flash to boost his speed even further, so that's not really applicable here, but it can happen.

Teleportation is not speed.  You can be a teleporter and still get your ass kicked if you don't have the reflexes needed to use it in time.  To be faster than a teleporter you just need to have superior reflexes (to hit them before they activate their teleportation).


----------



## 青月光 (Jul 25, 2012)

This is not good logic. Has everyone forgotten about shinobi that are perfect counter to other shinobi?

That is, Minato is the best counter to Tobi because of Hiraishin.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 25, 2012)

G-Man said:


> Actually, you can.  Happened in an issue of Flash.  Granted, Flash could normally go faster than lightspeed, and in said issue he was borrowing kinetic energy from Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Golden Age Flash to boost his speed even further, so that's not really applicable here, but it can happen.
> 
> Teleportation is not speed.  You can be a teleporter and still get your ass kicked if you don't have the reflexes needed to use it in time.  To be faster than a teleporter you just need to have superior reflexes (to hit them before they activate their teleportation).



And I was speaking in the realm of Naruto, not DC comics where Flash and Zoom are the fastest thing there is.

Minato>Naruto in speed and this chapter pretty much showed that. 

If Minato and Naruto raced to see who got to what location first and Minato had a kunai setup in that location and Naruto was set in BM then who would get there first? Obviously Minato because teleportation>movement speed.


----------



## Ejenku (Jul 25, 2012)

Naruto would have to use V2 or Gai would have to be in 7 gates. Kakashi and Gai are in base. Naruto's V1 looks slow and weak like against Itachi/Nagato. At the moment the three are below Minato.


----------



## Namikaze Minato (Jul 25, 2012)

gotta love the damage control and the level of denial here.

Minato had zero knowledge about Tobi and accomplished more than Naruto + Bee + Kakashi + Gai did and they have knowledge about Tobi.

also Tobi NEVER used his Rinnegan in this chapter and still overwhelmed them , and the fan is comparable to the chains , not that much of tangible difference.

seems pretty straight forward to me , enough of the bias and damage control.


----------



## Hamaru (Jul 25, 2012)

Tobi has talked about regaining HIS power, so he was clearly weaker then than he is now.


----------



## Harbour (Jul 25, 2012)

I can agree, that Minato was much more qualified shinobi, than all of these guys. Tobi against him used the same abilities, had advantages as surprise attack and Kyuubi, that did much more than GM. But Minato whooped his ass, and then pressured Kyuubi.
Naruto team has the Tobi, whih use the same abilities, hadnt advantages and hadnt Kyuubi. And they still cant beat him. Minato really still relevant. Haters are pwned.


----------



## Schiffer (Jul 25, 2012)

If you want be fair then gai>Minato because he doesnt need Hiraishin to go toe to toe with tobi  

Nunchuck Gai>Minato(come at me)

And Kakashi wasn't fighting him , and naruto has borderline down syndrome soooo


----------



## Ghost (Jul 25, 2012)

Good one. 

Minato would've died already.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 25, 2012)

Kakashi, Gai, Naruto, and B haven't gone all out yet. With that said Tobi taking on so many skilled shinobi at once with just his S/T jutsu and only getting a small scratch on his mask, while Minato had blown the guys arm off, stabbed him with a Kunai, placed FTG and Contract seal on him in less time does make Minato seems ungodly strong.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 25, 2012)

Namikaze Minato said:


> gotta love the damage control and the level of denial here.
> 
> Minato had zero knowledge about Tobi and accomplished more than Naruto + Bee + Kakashi + Gai did and they have knowledge about Tobi.
> 
> ...



Actually during their final clash Minato had as much knowledge on Tobi as Naruto, Kakashi and Guy have now.

Tobi on the other hand knew nothing about Hirashin level 2.
Granted Minato deserves credit for figuring Tobi's abilities fast enough and use the perfect jutsu to catch him off guard.


----------



## batman22wins (Jul 25, 2012)

Tobi didn't have his fan and Rinnegan. Minato fought a washed up Tobi


----------



## Namikaze Minato (Jul 25, 2012)

Arles Celes said:


> Actually during their final clash Minato had as much knowledge on Tobi as Naruto, Kakashi and Guy have now.
> 
> Tobi on the other hand knew nothing about Hirashin level 2.
> Granted Minato deserves credit for figuring Tobi's abilities fast enough and use the perfect jutsu to catch him off guard.



yeah he deduced that using his intelligence , he didnt have knowledge beforehand like Naruto and his team did.

Dude Hirashin is Hirashin , Minato just chose to do it at the last second.

im sick of people downplaying Minato.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 25, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi, Gai, Naruto, and B haven't gone all out yet. With that said Tobi taking on so many skilled shinobi at once with just his S/T jutsu and only getting a small scratch on his mask, while Minato had blown the guys arm off, stabbed him with a Kunai, placed FTG and Contract seal on him in less time does make Minato seems ungodly strong.



Once one manages to surprise an opponent by doing an unpredictable attack it is possible to win or change the tables in the battle.

Often there is a very thin line between victory and defeat and the guy who manages to use an ability that can caught almost anyone off guard who has no knowledge on it.

Its kinda like Kabuto sneak attacked Itachi through "Oro's" mouth and cutting him in half.

Those abilities need to ensure victory at first try though as they lose lot of their effectiveness when used twice against a skilled opponent. 

Just like Tobi could have possibly defeated Minato at the very start by absorbing him right away. He didn't so he missed his opportunity while Minato didn't.

I wouldn't in such cases say that there is a big difference in power (like during Ei VS Minato) but more of using a specific ability more cleverly. Minato's and Tobi's fighting style relies a lot on planning while guys like Madara and Nagato have such overwhelming power that they hardly need it.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 25, 2012)

batman22wins said:


> Tobi didn't have his fan and Rinnegan. Minato fought a washed up Tobi



Yet another ignorant person brings up the rinnegan  Has he used it once when engaging Naruto, Bee, Kakashi and Guy? Nope. 

The only thing he used it for was the gedo mazo and the shared vision of the jinchuuriki. 

Tobi hasn't used any abilites against Naruto, Kakashi and Guy that he could'n't use against Minato and they still can't manage to land a hit, which makes your rinnegan statement completely invalid. 

Of course I'm not saying Minato>Naruto, Kakashi and Guy, but his performance is definitely more impressive thus far.


----------



## Enterprise E (Jul 25, 2012)

The thing is, though, as many have pointed out, that Tobi hasn't used the Rinnegan against Naruto, Kakashi, and Gai, and the fan is kind of like the chains.  It isn't all that important and has shown no special abilities.  He's fighting Naruto and company with the same power we saw him use against Minato, and Minato beat him in the span of less than one chapter, while Naruto and company are losing at this point in time.  Maybe later on they'll beat Tobi, and possibly even kill him, but right now, Minato is being shown as the superior fighter, at least against Tobi.


----------



## Jad (Jul 25, 2012)

When Gai opens his gates, his power increases tens times it's power.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 25, 2012)

Namikaze Minato said:


> yeah he deduced that using his intelligence , he didnt have knowledge beforehand like Naruto and his team did.
> 
> Dude Hirashin is Hirashin , Minato just chose to do it at the last second.
> 
> im sick of people downplaying Minato.



Its less a case of downplaying him  but simply not admitting that he is the strongest ever and could defeat even Rikudou or Madara and Nagato at the same time.

Sometimes fans just overhype certain characters and Itachi and Minato are among the biggest offenders.

That does not change that those guys are not insanely strong though. Just not ," Minato BAMflashes Akatsuki, Rikudou and Juubi" or "Itachi soles Galactus".


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 25, 2012)

Look people, I know that Minato has the right skillset to face Tobi.

Although you can't overlook the fact that Minato did what this 3 man party couldn't, in a shorter time span and under less favorable circumstances.


----------



## Namikaze Minato (Jul 25, 2012)

Arles Celes said:


> *Just like Tobi could have possibly defeated Minato at the very start by absorbing him right away. He didn't so he missed his opportunity while Minato didn't.*



and you believe that?

the whole point of the author stating that Minato won the battle of speed , is that Tobi would've lost in all cases against Minato because he had the slower S/T.


absorbing right away or not isn't a tangible difference , we saw on many occasions that Minato have a very fast reaction ,and his S/T is a lot faster than Tobi.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jul 25, 2012)

Think about Minato took on Tobi + Full Kurama while Naruto with Bee, Kakashi, Gai, Killer B took on 6 tailed beast which are weaker than Kurama + Tobi and they haven't even scratched the guy.


----------



## lathia (Jul 25, 2012)

I'm more surprised this threat had to be started by someone other than a Minato "wanker" that this forum so much hates. Of course, that's never the case unless some other unnamed fandom is involved, right?


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 25, 2012)

Namikaze Minato said:


> and you believe that?
> 
> the whole point of the author stating that Minato won the battle of speed , is that Tobi would've lost in all cases against Minato because he had the slower S/T.
> 
> ...



Do I believe that? Not necessarily, but I do not deny the possibility.

Tobi could have overestimated his ability to absorb Minato right away or maybe his assesment of being able to do so was correct.

I guess we will never know for sure...


----------



## B.o.t.i (Jul 25, 2012)

would you expect anything less from naruto's dad.


----------



## Namikaze Minato (Jul 25, 2012)

lathia said:


> I'm more surprised this threat had to be started by someone other than a Minato "wanker" that this forum so much hates. Of course, that's never the case unless some other unnamed fandom is involved, right?



me as well , however the OP have an agenda.

through Hyping Minato , he's indirectly hyping Itachi against Tobi , since both are considered powerful for their intellect.


----------



## Danzio (Jul 25, 2012)

The fight just started. What kind of villain would  Tobi be if he didn't get a few attacks in?

They are still trying to figure him out,and as others already said neither Naruto nor Gai used full speed.


----------



## Hamaru (Jul 25, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> Think about *Minato took on Tobi + Full Kurama* while Naruto with Bee, Kakashi, Gai, Killer B took on 6 tailed beast which are weaker than Kurama + Tobi and they haven't even scratched the guy.



No. Shodai is the one who did that. Minato took on a weaker version of Tobi one on one. After that he went on to seal the Kyubi; however, even after that, we see from the conversation that he had with Naruto, Minato still was fearful of Tobi.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 25, 2012)

lathia said:


> I'm more surprised this threat had to be started by someone other than a Minato "wanker" that this forum so much hates. Of course, that's never the case unless some other unnamed fandom is involved, right?






Namikaze Minato said:


> me as well , however the OP have an agenda.
> 
> through Hyping Minato , he's indirectly hyping Itachi against Tobi , since both are considered powerful for their intellect.



While I believe Itachi'd do better than these chumps, its not what I am trying to say here.

I am behind my words. I never thought about Itachi till someone brought him up in this thread.


----------



## Petros (Jul 25, 2012)

So... people complain when the manga spoonfeeds them info and hype instead of showing, manga shows 3 top ninja being owned by a guy minato basically one-paneled, and they bitch and moan "it's a different situation"... okay.

Sure, Gai's not using gates, sure, Naruto's not in full bijuu mode, but it's STILL bijuu mode Naruto, Kakashi AND Gai together fighting taijutsu and intangibility, the same two things Tobi used against Minato.

Also:
they claim that "Road to Ninja" is already a hit
they claim that "Road to Ninja" is already a hit

Parallel much?


----------



## Ulqy (Jul 25, 2012)

I hate fellow-naruto fans for reasons just like this. Minato is not a god...Tobi is fully aware of what his opponents are capable of this time.

Minato defeated Tobi with a sneaky technique Tobi had no knowledge of...Shut the fuck up goddamnit , just shut up.


----------



## boohead (Jul 25, 2012)

Ulqy said:


> *Minato defeated Tobi with a sneaky technique *Tobi had no knowledge of...Shut the fuck up goddamnit , just shut up.



Cause this isn't about Ninjas or anything.


----------



## Octavian (Jul 25, 2012)

the tears are delicious 

and tobi's S/T and taijutsu skills are beast. Naruto's gonna need to go into BM and do a shunshin to tag Tobi at this rate.


----------



## Petros (Jul 25, 2012)

Ulqy said:


> Minato defeated Tobi with a sneaky technique Tobi had no knowledge of...Shut the fuck up goddamnit , just shut up.


0/10
it's like you're not even trying


----------



## Rain (Jul 25, 2012)

Tobi with Gunbai -> Minato


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 25, 2012)

Ulqy said:


> I hate fellow-naruto fans for reasons just like this. Minato is not a god...Tobi is fully aware of what his opponents are capable of this time.
> 
> Minato defeated Tobi with a sneaky technique Tobi had no knowledge of...Shut the fuck up goddamnit , just shut up.



A guy who sounds like a whiny baby is telling others to STFU? 

Cry some more LMAO.


----------



## Ghost (Jul 25, 2012)

Eliyua23 said:


> Think about Minato took on Tobi + Full Kurama while Naruto with Bee, Kakashi, Gai, Killer B took on 6 tailed beast which are weaker than Kurama + Tobi and they haven't even scratched the guy.



Minato took on pre-rinnegan Tobi and won because PnJ. It was Kushina who did the biggest part on taking out Kurama.

Naruto, Bee, Kakashi and Guy took on Rinnegan Tobi, six Jinchuurikies and Gedo Mazo (incomplete Juubi).


----------



## Ulqy (Jul 25, 2012)

Petros said:


> 0/10
> it's like you're not even trying



Its like your not even able to read.

Our fanbase is poison

And as much as you retards want to deny it, if Naruto goes full bijuu mode, Minato would be destroyed by him. Because you can only throw a kunai so far and that technique busts mountains.

Naruto full power > Minato at full power.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 25, 2012)

Shirosaki said:


> Minato took on pre-rinnegan Tobi and won because PnJ. It was Kushina who did the biggest part on taking out Kurama.
> 
> Naruto, Bee, Kakashi and Guy took on Rinnegan Tobi, six Jinchuurikies and Gedo Mazo (incomplete Juubi).



The plot no jutsu lame ass excuse again  Some of you kids are sad with all of your pathetic damage control posts.


----------



## boohead (Jul 25, 2012)

So Tobi is faster now in both speed and teleporting, and has better reflexes? Link?


----------



## slickcat (Jul 25, 2012)

fucking dislike this RM mode, switch back to SM and give tobi a run for his money.


----------



## Louis-954 (Jul 25, 2012)

> The plot no jutsu lame ass excuse again  Some of you kids are sad with all of your pathetic damage control posts.


Well, he isn't exactly wrong.

We have no idea how well Minato would have performed against current Tobi with Gedo Mazo and Jinchuuriki Pains.



> fucking dislike this RM mode, switch back to SM and give tobi a run for his money.


Yes, downgrading is a great idea...


----------



## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Jul 25, 2012)

Did minato beat tobi using pure taijutsu like how naruto, gai, and kakashi and doing? or did he use a jutsu called hirashin? which is the perfect counter to tobi's phasing?

oh boy i cant wait till gai goes gates, and naruto goes BM. I just wanna see is tobi can react to their super Blitzing, Nigh-unreactable speed. which is unlikely.


----------



## Ulqy (Jul 25, 2012)

Louis-954 said:


> Well, he isn't exactly wrong.
> 
> We have no idea how well Minato would have performed against current Tobi with Gedo Mazo and Jinchuuriki Pains.
> 
> ...



In all honesty, Current Minato would have lost to this Tobi with jinchuu and gedo mazo.

Unlike the kyuubi, gedo isn't in a contract seal so Minato cant do anything about it while it busts up mountains and destroys him with one strike

And the jinchuuriki are edo tensei and thus cannot be killed by Minato, while they spam biju dama's. 

Tobi just has to stay intangible while they wreck minatos shit.

Another testament to Naruto's greatness for taking all that shit on at once.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Jul 25, 2012)

Synn said:


> In control of the situation, you say?
> 
> The panel where Tobi's attention is caught by Kamui is no coincidence
> 
> ...



And instead of all of the talking and such, he could have simply followed through and killed Bee. Or dropped the kunai and teleported in front of Bee and stabbed in the neck Or teleport above Bee and stab him in the face. Minato dominated the confrontation. Simple as that/

Minato had no intention of killing him anyway so do not think you could call it outsmarting.


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## slickcat (Jul 25, 2012)

So many children reading this manga. My God, Majority of you have become deluded over power levels its sickening. Battledome makes this even worse with everyones delusions of fights ending in a blitz or in genjutsu rape from the get go.

People fail to see that many things arent in check( and again this isnt DBZ) I ll mention them.
1. Minato has the proper tools to fight Tobi, even if megazord appeared and he didnt have the ability to counter attack after Tobi phases then hes fucked. Minato happened to have the proper reflexes and hiraishin for the job. Konan didnt have this and had to compensate for Tobis time limit for phasing with PREP.

2. Naruto in RM doesnt fight like someone in dbz with this power should. He has the ability to create extensions from any part of his body, with Rasengan to boot,yet he looks like a hopeless kid needing a kunai and gai to stall and save him. He able to project from his body the long arms he can easily go into a physical fight waiting for the right time to strike using his extensions.

3. Again this is not DBZ, majority of the fights do not end in one hit b4 the enemy powers up to a new level surpassing the main character. The reason why Naruto and team cant hit tobi is because Tobis intangibility speed is almost on part with hiraishin level speed, then again Naruto isnt even in BM for this fight. and I believe SM Naruto would do a better job at counter attacking tobi more so than RM can with frog katas.

4. All the Minato is greater than A,B,C is bullshit because all the fanboys in this thread cant see straight, you repeat manga panels we already know of, yet people just turn their brains off and forget that someone fighting Shino who uses bugs would approach the battle differently than someone who uses sand. The answer is being able to land a hit with whatever tools you have.

Grow up the lot of you and stop seeing things from only one point of view.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 25, 2012)

What a stupid thread, there it's a reason why this manga isn't called DBZ. Just because minato managed to hit him doesn't mean he is stronger than these 3.

This tobi is more experienced, and stronger and minato's hiriashin it's a great counter to tobi's space time jutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 25, 2012)

Wow, there are some Minato haters afterall. I am surprised.


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## Joakim3 (Jul 25, 2012)

Yeah this definitly ups the Minato hype train 

First we have to take into account Gai is not using Gates, Naruto is not in BM and Killer B is not actively fighting Tobi but supporting the formers. 

Secondly, Minato just happens to have the *perfect* counter to _Jikakun Ido_ in the form of _Hirashin_... where as the dynamic trio well don't. Granted what Minato did was INCREADIBLE feat, but to say he can replicate what RM Naruto, Gai & Kakashi are doing is ludircrous

At this point in time the only 2 things that are fast enough to hit Tobi are _Shinra Tensei_ and _Hirashin_ as their the only instant techniques, so you essentially need one of the other to beat him 1 vs. 1 (this is of course excluding rin'negan powers)


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## ~Gesy~ (Jul 25, 2012)

I think minato would still have a chance to beat tobi because the second he goes solid it would be over, naruto and co has to reach him in time for that to happen.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 25, 2012)

Well, the Minato was the first person to face Tobi, so that has to account for something to. I doubt even he would make a difference here. Tobi has just been going through the motions for the last few chapters and honestly, Hiraishin would be dead on more useful than whatever they are cooking up. However, I don't see Tobi falling for the same technique though...

Kakashi needs to find a method to force Tobi into a tangible state or leave him imprisoned in pseudo-space with some interesting new technique.


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## Fear (Jul 25, 2012)

Minato is stronger than the Rikudo. 

You mad?


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 25, 2012)

How did this thread make it to page 9.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jul 25, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> How did this thread make it to page 9.



Minato's name is on the title


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## Sniffers (Jul 25, 2012)

Minato with his Hiraishin is just the worst possible match-up for Tobi. Also, Tobi has two pairs of eyes now, so he doesn't have a glaring blind spot like he used to and his battle fan is pretty darn epic. Tobi is actually wearing his battle gear this time and isn't underestimating his enemies as much as last time either. So the conclusion doesn't hold IMO.

Still, Minato's feat is really really great and Tobi is one hell of a fighter. Especially the current one is just haxxed as hell.


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## Turrin (Jul 25, 2012)

Here's the truth of the matter:

Minato countered Tobi's S/T jutsu within a chapters time landing several effective blows on Tobi. RM Naruto, Kakashi, B, and Gai after 1 chapter only managed to scratch Tobi's mask and were left at the end of the chapter wondering how the hell they were going to actually land an effective blow on the guy. If you think that doesn't hype Minato's abilities your smoking some seriously good shit. 

Thus Minato's FTG is greater than any of the combo attacks Gai, Kakashi, Naruto, and B used against Tobi this chapter. Furthermore if Gai, Kakashi, Naruto, and B were fighting Minato instead of Tobi this chapter the result would be the same with Minato evading all of their attacks and them having no clue how to actually land an effective blow on Minato or they would be even worse off; because Minato's reflexes and S/t jutsu make him even faster than Tobi's intangibility technique.

Minato with FTG is simply better than the techniques all parties involved in this fight have used in this chapter. To say otherwise is ridiculous.

Now does this mean Minato > Rinnegan Tobi or > Naruto, B, Kakashi, and Gai, of course not. Team Naruto has not gone all out and Tobi already had his Pain Rikudo defeated before this, plus he's probably not going all out ether just yet. If RM Naruto starts using TKB with KB in SM, Gai starts using 6-7 Gates, Kakashi continues to use Kamui, and B starts to join directly in the fight and these guys still can't land as effective of a blow on Tobi as Minato than we can start discussing whether Minato is > RM Naruto, B, Kakashi, and Gai. 

So we need to see how Team Naruto actually manages to bypass Tobi's S/T Jutsu. Right now all we can say is that Tobi with just S/T jutsu is clearly a beast and Minato is an even greater beast for countering Tobi's S/T Jutsu.

Edit: Oh and people saying Minato is just a terrible match up for Tobi, that is total BS and they know it. Minato FTG doesn't negate Tobi's S/T Jutsu by any means. Both are S/T Jutsu users and in-fact Tobi has a more advanced S/T jutsu, it's just that Minato's reflexes/reaction time/speed are better than Tobi's and thus he was a split second faster. That's not a bad match up that's Minato beating Tobi at his own game and just being outright better than Tobi with his usage of S/T jutsu.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 25, 2012)

Turrin said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well said , + Repped.


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## SageEnergyMode (Jul 25, 2012)

Synn said:


> The same Minato who was overwhelmed by a young and inexperienced Bee, in terms of speed.



LOL. Overwhelmed by Bee in terms of speed? He outclassed both Bee and A. Bee just showcased that he had a bit more skill/talent than A. Minato was amused by what he saw from Bee. It didn't come remotely close to overwhelming him.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Jul 25, 2012)

POST #7799

Minato simply had a different ability. And at his level it would be interesting if we saw him fight this opponent or this team for that matter.



Pretty Good Satan said:


> The Tobi that fought Minato was younger, less experienced, and lacked the Rinnegan.


But I don't understand the Rinnegan argument.

He hasn't used it yet.


Synn said:


> The same Minato who was overwhelmed by a young and inexperienced Bee, in terms of speed.


No.

Bee predicted his moves and appropriately countered. But Bee was in just as much danger of dying as Minato. And he never had the superior position.


Petros said:


> So... people complain when the manga spoonfeeds them info and hype instead of showing, manga shows 3 top ninja being owned by a guy minato basically one-paneled, and they bitch and moan "it's a different situation"... okay.
> 
> Sure, Gai's not using gates, sure, Naruto's not in full bijuu mode, but it's STILL bijuu mode Naruto, Kakashi AND Gai together fighting taijutsu and intangibility, the same two things Tobi used against Minato.
> 
> ...


Actually as far as the panels, I see this as a parallel and this is what I thought you were gonna post.

As you can see


Ulqy said:


> Its like your not even able to read.
> 
> Our fanbase is poison
> 
> ...


Do you believe you are helping with the poisonous nature of these forums?

Adding more vitriol is not the solution my brother.

As for Minato versus Biju Mode, again it's about abilities, not power. It's a known fact that Minato can use Space Time Barrier to drop a Biju Dama somewhere else.

And Minato would plan far enough ahead to leave a seal tag somewhere out of the way.

And talk about bad matchups, Minato is the guy who created Naruto's seal. He would be able to simply shut Biju Mode down.

Leaving it Minato versus Sage Mode Naruto, a more fair match.


Shirosaki said:


> Minato took on pre-rinnegan Tobi and won because PnJ. It was Kushina who did the biggest part on taking out Kurama.
> 
> Naruto, Bee, Kakashi and Guy took on Rinnegan Tobi, six Jinchuurikies and Gedo Mazo (incomplete Juubi).



Kushina's assistance *was* invaluable yes. BUT, Minato was the only one that faced Tobi and he was extremely effective without Kushina's input.

But yes, the team's performance in my mind is beyond reproach. It's just that Tobi is a different breed of opponent. A different kind of broken.



Louis-954 said:


> Well, he isn't exactly wrong.
> 
> We have no idea how well Minato would have performed against current Tobi with Gedo Mazo and Jinchuuriki Pains.
> 
> ...


Mode shifting not downgrading. A different set of abilities.

Very true, but Minato has a wide range of unknown abilities. And for all we know, Contract Seal could free the jinchuriki of being Edo Tensei to a degree. Rip out their chakra rods may set them free. 

There are many ways to play it.


Ulqy said:


> In all honesty, Current Minato would have lost to this Tobi with jinchuu and gedo mazo.
> 
> Unlike the kyuubi, gedo isn't in a contract seal so Minato cant do anything about it while it busts up mountains and destroys him with one strike
> 
> ...


Minato may have other fuinjutsu to deal with Edo Tensei, he was familiar with Tobirama's abilities.

Yes Tobi needs to remain intangible and possibly watch Minato dismantle his Pain Rikudo.

Though yes Naruto is great for going through all of it, no question. He is his father's son. Awesome, begets awesome.


Kakashi Hatake said:


> How did this thread make it to page 9.



Good question.


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## Summers (Jul 25, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> How did this thread make it to page 9.





~Gesy~ said:


> Minato's name is on the title



Question answered.


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## slickcat (Jul 25, 2012)

well all I see is the mention of Minato. 

Now try to paint a picture in your heads of tobi spamming shinra tensei in susano(if he has MS) at the same time being intangible to attacks, the way I see it Naruto, gai,kakashi have alot to work for to get him serious. I dont see what stops tobi from dashing towards any enemy and using shinra tensei, teleporting to the enemy and taking him.

This is why this isnt DBZ, we can come up with multiple scenarios of how the fights can go, people say IC, but theres no such thing. I for one will enjoy the fight anyhow it goes,being stronger than Minato or Tobi isnt the end of the world. Just learn to accept that Tobi is now more lethal than when he fought minato with rinnengan


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 25, 2012)

Hamaru said:


> No. Shodai is the one who did that. Minato took on a weaker version of Tobi one on one. After that he went on to seal the Kyubi; however, even after that, we see from the conversation that he had with Naruto, Minato still was fearful of Tobi.




Shodai took on the full 9 tails just like Minato did, Minato didn't fear Tobi, he just knew Tobi would cause havoc in the future.


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## Ulqy (Jul 25, 2012)

> As for Minato versus Biju Mode, again it's about abilities, not power. It's a known fact that Minato can use Space Time Barrier to drop a Biju Dama somewhere else.



Except this not only sucks up a massive amount of chakra, but 6 of those coming at him repeatedly forever from all directions ensures his death. They have infinate chakra, he does not.



> And Minato would plan far enough ahead to leave a seal tag somewhere out of the way.



Nope, your throwing your own opinion onto this. Besides that's not winning the battle thats running away. Also...Tobi warps him and his edo tensei to minato's location..rinse and repeat until kunai are done.



> And talk about bad matchups, Minato is the guy who created Naruto's seal. He would be able to simply shut Biju Mode down.



Uhhh...No. There is -nothing- -anywhere- in the series that indicates anything like that. Minato *Cannot* just turn off the bijuu mode of the edo tensei zombies...also theres is 6 of them with infinite chakra, he stops to turn one off they turn it back on..not like he can kill them.

But he cannot turn off bijuu mode.





> Very true, but Minato has a wide range of unknown abilities. And for all we know, Contract Seal could free the jinchuriki of being Edo Tensei to a degree. Rip out their chakra rods may set them free.



Thats not how contract seals work, the edo tensei are not contract seals. Also they are edo tensei, he has no idea how to set them free because he does not know the handsigns to edo tensei.(Not making shit up, there is 0 evidence he does). Not to mention he does not know how chakra rods work. Also there is 6 of them..and in bijuu/cloak mode the rods are not reachable.



> Minato may have other fuinjutsu to deal with Edo Tensei, he was familiar with Tobirama's abilities.



No, all we know is he knew the 2nd hokage used space time ninjutsu. Nowhere else is it confirmed he knew more. Also show me one other sealing jutsu he has ever used that didn't kill himself to support your argument.



> Yes Tobi needs to remain intangible and possibly watch Minato dismantle his Pain Rikudo.



6 Sharin/Rinnegan Bijuu mode edo tensei jinchuuriki vs Minato is death for minato.



How is this matchup unfair? You people are the ones claiming that hes superior to people who have faught and defeated these people.




Eliyua23 said:


> Shodai took on the full 9 tails just like Minato did, Minato didn't fear Tobi, he just knew Tobi would cause havoc in the future.



What manga are you reading? Minato never at any point took on the nine tails himself.


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## Hiroshi (Jul 25, 2012)

Guys. Don't flamebait.


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## timmysblood (Jul 25, 2012)

Tobi is 
-Using a new weapon
-Has the rinnegan
-Has GM which they have to concentrate on simultaneously
-Is 17 years older and more experienced 
-Is fighting against people who have already been fighting for days and in multiple fights while Minato was fresh

But the two fights are completely comparable 

Not to mention a chapter is not a unit of time,  a chapter could be five months or  5 minutes.


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## Sniffers (Jul 25, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Oh and people saying Minato is just a terrible match up for Tobi, that is total BS and they know it. Minato FTG doesn't negate Tobi's S/T Jutsu by any means. Both are S/T Jutsu users and in-fact Tobi has a more advanced S/T jutsu, it's just that Minato's reflexes/reaction time/speed are better than Tobi's and thus he was a split second faster. That's not a bad match up that's Minato beating Tobi at his own game and just being outright better than Tobi with his usage of S/T jutsu.


You misunderstand it's not about negating the S/T jutsu. To beat Tobi you generally want to have really fast reflexes and a teleport ability to quickly counter attack. Minato epitomises this strategy and therefore is a very good match up against Tobi.

Let's be honest here, if the way to win the game is to be the fastest it's kind of ridiculous to say that the fastest guy ever isn't best suited for the job.

Since this straight forward strategy doesn't seem to work, Kakashi will probably think of something more complex to get results though. That mask is likely to come off.


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## B.o.t.i (Jul 25, 2012)

fighting styles make fights you not know that??


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 25, 2012)

Tobi hasnt even used the Rinnegan 

Honestly, this just shows how far Minato is ahead of everyone else in the manga, and he died before he hit thirty.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 25, 2012)

Someone did not read the chapter, this chapter makes it obvious that Gai=current tobi>minato>old tobi.


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## Amatérasu’s Son (Jul 25, 2012)

slickcat said:


> well all I see is the mention of Minato.
> 
> Now try to paint a picture in your heads of tobi spamming shinra tensei in susano(if he has MS) at the same time being intangible to attacks, the way I see it Naruto, gai,kakashi have alot to work for to get him serious. I dont see what stops tobi from dashing towards any enemy and using shinra tensei, teleporting to the enemy and taking him.
> 
> This is why this isnt DBZ, we can come up with multiple scenarios of how the fights can go, people say IC, but theres no such thing. I for one will enjoy the fight anyhow it goes,being stronger than Minato or Tobi isnt the end of the world. Just learn to accept that Tobi is now more lethal than when he fought minato with rinnengan


Very true.

But I don't think he can use Shinra Tensei simultaneously with phasing.

But you're right it's still broken Shinra Tensei, then phase...

Then again, when KN6 Naruto countered Shinra tensei, it pushed back on Deva Realm, implying that he would have to stay tangible to let the attack have its impact. It would be a vulnerability. That could be why he isn't using that ability


Ulqy said:


> Except this not only sucks up a massive amount of chakra, but 6 of those coming at him repeatedly forever from all directions ensures his death. They have infinate chakra, he does not.


That's the type of attack you evade not block.



> Nope, your throwing your own opinion onto this. Besides that's not winning the battle thats running away. Also...Tobi warps him and his edo tensei to minato's location..rinse and repeat until kunai are done.


I'm not throwing my opinion in, but making a logical prediction based on Minato's personality.

And secondly you misunderstood. I didn't say anything about Minato running I was referring to him using Space Time Barrier to absorb a Biju Dama and drop it somewhere else. Not him going somewhere else.

And Minato is not restricted to Kunai. Anywhere he touches can acquire a Hiraishin seal formula.



> Uhhh...No. There is -nothing- -anywhere- in the series that indicates anything like that. Minato *Cannot* just turn off the bijuu mode of the edo tensei zombies...also theres is 6 of them with infinite chakra, he stops to turn one off they turn it back on..not like he can kill them.
> 
> But he cannot turn off bijuu mode.


Why not? Minato has already closed the Hakke Fuin on Kurama fully sealing him.

Now You *may* be right about Kyubi Chakra mode as that is chakra Naruto has separately from Kurama, but it's equally feasible that Minato could just seal that chakra off as well.



> Thats not how contract seals work, the edo tensei are not contract seals. Also they are edo tensei, he has no idea how to set them free because he does not know the handsigns to edo tensei.(Not making shit up, there is 0 evidence he does). Not to mention he does not know how chakra rods work. Also there is 6 of them..and in bijuu/cloak mode the rods are not reachable.


The contract seal mechanics haven't exactly been fully explained. Your statement is equal speculation to mine.

And no,he does not know how the chakra rods work, unless he has the knowledge from the chakra that was locked in Naruto and witnessed the Pain fight. Then he knows about them intimately. Ask Orochimaru if that would work.

And you are right, if they go to Jinchiriki forms grabbing the rods will be very difficult.



> No, all we know is he knew the 2nd hokage used space time ninjutsu. Nowhere else is it confirmed he knew more. Also show me one other sealing jutsu he has ever used that didn't kill himself to support your argument.


That is not logical. He's the only one we've seen that knew that Tobirama used Space Time ninjutsu, it's not exactly common knowledge. Minato knew his history and it isn't unreasonable to say that he based his space time ninjutsu on Tobirama's. If he studied one aspect it isn't farfetched to say he was aware of the other.



> 6 Sharin/Rinnegan Bijuu mode edo tensei jinchuuriki vs Minato is death for minato.


Your opinion. And you're refusing to consider alternatives.

I was saying Tobi can't afford to sit back in his phased state in safety, because if Minato is left to his own devices then he could start to whittle away the jinchuriki paths.

How I don't know I admit freely, but we had no clue how Kakashi and Guy could stand up to a bunch of Version 2 jinchuriki either, and they did fine.

And Minato has equally potent abilities and is smarter than those two.
[/QUOTE]


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## ueharakk (Jul 25, 2012)

- Kakashi only came into the fight later, most of the exchange was naruto vs Tobi with Gai assisting.

- Tobi is using a better weapon against Naruto and co.

- Naruto's RM supply is running on low, Gai hasn't used gates, Kakashi has been fighting for days

and the fight ain't over yet.


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## Turrin (Jul 25, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> You misunderstand it's not about negating the S/T jutsu. To beat Tobi you generally want to have really fast reflexes and a teleport ability to quickly counter attack. Minato epitomises this strategy and therefore is a very good match up against Tobi.


No you are wrong. The best way to counter Tobi S/T jutsu is have an ability like Torune's, that prevents Tobi from grabbing a hold of you or causes him significant damage if he does. That's why Torune some random Jonin was able to take out Tobi's arms despite B, Kakashi, Naruto, and Gai accomplishing nothing this chapter. Raiton shroud is also an ideal counter to Tobi's S/T jutsu because if Tobi goes to grab someone using the Raiton shroud he'd be paralzyed by the raiton incurring damage and most likely preventing him from S/T warping that shinobi. Etc....

Speed is not a good match up for Tobi, if that were the case Kakashi, Gai, and RM Naruto would have him dead to rights by now since all three of them are speedsters. Tobi is one of the fastest characters in the manga so speed does not give a person any specific advantage over Tobi's fighting style, ether your faster than him or not, which is the case with every speedster character in the manga. Minato being faster than him doesn't make him an especially good match up for S/t Jutsu Tobi, it just means he is better at using s/t jutsu than tobi



> Let's be honest here, if the way to win the game is to be the fastest it's kind of ridiculous to say that the fastest guy ever isn't best suited for the job.


That is essentially the most difficult way to win the game though, because Tobi himself is a speed demon. So that make zero sense. 

This is not to say Minato is bad match up because of course he is a decent match as he beat Tobi, but nothing specifically makes Minato well suited for the job, he was just outright better than Tobi at his usage of S/T Jutsu.

It's like saying someone who beats Gai by a slim margin in Taijutsu is Gai's worst match up, which no he isn't, he is just simply better than Gai end of story.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 25, 2012)

So Minato > RM Naruto + Gai + Weakened Kakashi

Ill take that.


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## Huey Freeman (Jul 25, 2012)

What exactly Gai with gates is going to do? I am just curious are you somehow saying that his gates will give him the speed to tag Tobi the second he is not intangible?


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## The Prodigy (Jul 25, 2012)

Current Tobi > Kyuubi invasion Tobi

Gai was in base holding his own perfectly fine, Naruto didn't use BM, and Kakashi is almost dry on chakra. Not to mention they've been actually fighting for 2 days now, whereas Tobi is finally done letting others do his fighting for him.

But lets just say Minato's was more impressive for no reason at all


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## Turrin (Jul 25, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> What exactly Gai with gates is going to do? I am just curious are you somehow saying that his gates will give him the speed to tag Tobi the second he is not intangible?



The combined attacks of Naruto, Kakashi, Gai, and B allowed Naruto to scratch Tobi's mask. It is only common sense if Gai powers up and speeds up that things will become more difficult for Tobi. Though I'll agree that doesn't mean Gai will be able to solo Tobi with gates.


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## ImSerious (Jul 25, 2012)

hell yea


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## Huey Freeman (Jul 25, 2012)

Turrin said:


> The combined attacks of Naruto, Kakashi, Gai, and B allowed Naruto to scratch Tobi's mask. It is only common sense if Gai powers up and speeds up that things will become more difficult for Tobi. Though I'll agree that doesn't mean Gai will be able to solo Tobi with gates.



Well my point was I highly doubt this is Tobi fastest reflexes in using his abilities and Gai speed in gates is not that overwhelming to someone of Tobi caliber.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 25, 2012)

Oh ok, lets not forget Minato was using his chakra to subdue the Nine Tails in labor for many hours 

How to people overlook such things.


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## shintebukuro (Jul 25, 2012)

I also don't think it's fair to discount the war fan. Tobi is using it a lot, and well; it's clearly a powerup to his fighting style.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 25, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Edit: Oh and people saying Minato is just a terrible match up for Tobi, that is total BS and they know it. Minato FTG doesn't negate Tobi's S/T Jutsu by any means. Both are S/T Jutsu users and in-fact Tobi has a more advanced S/T jutsu, it's just that Minato's reflexes/reaction time/speed are better than Tobi's and thus he was a split second faster. That's not a bad match up that's Minato beating Tobi at his own game and just being outright better than Tobi with his usage of S/T jutsu.



Minato is not a terrible match up, but a good match up.
There is merit in that argument.

I am pretty sure you are one of the people who claim sharingan users are good match ups against Itachi because they possess a tool to negate/reduce effectiveness of Itachi's genjutsu, which happens to be his haxx move.

Ofcourse Minato's STJ doesn't negate Tobi's STJ. But it allows him to go toe to toe with Tobi and counter him. For example with Hirashin, it becomes virtually impossible for Tobi to warp him unless Minato fucks up majorly. There goes down Tobi's strongest offensive move.
Hirashin just happens to be an excellent tool(one of the few) to have when facing Tobi. There is no denying it.




Elite Uchiha said:


> So Minato > RM Naruto + Gai + Weakened Kakashi
> 
> Ill take that.



Kakashi is weakened yes. He has amnesia now and he completely forgot that he should be having stamina problems 






shintebukuro said:


> I also don't think it's fair to discount the war fan. Tobi is using it a lot, and well; it's clearly a powerup to his fighting style.



Yeah but the chains are gone


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 25, 2012)

The difference is this Tobi isn't the same Tobi that Minato fought either. The counter-attacks have been perfectly timed, their speed in countering isn't the problem, Tobi's being really Jewish with his tangibility though.


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## Bloo (Jul 25, 2012)

Naruto has yet to use his full power. RM Mode honestly isn't that strong, so it's no surprise they're not holding up well.


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## lathia (Jul 25, 2012)

Bloo said:


> Naruto has yet to use his full power. RM Mode honestly isn't that strong, so it's no surprise they're not holding up well.



It's not that RM isn't THAT strong, but the fact that RM doesn't even put Naruto on Minato's level. Mind you, in a 1 vs 1 none of them would survive. They'd get sucked.


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## Octavian (Jul 25, 2012)

you need good strategy, top tier speed and reflexes to beat tobi's S/T jutsu. RM naruto and BM naruto pack a ton of power (inferior only to madara, RS, and juubi) but they lack the finesse needed to negate tobi's ability.


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## Zenith (Jul 25, 2012)

Imgine the real deal Madara faning his flames with that epicness,holy shit I have a boner now


anyways,the sole reason Minato landed the hit on Tobi was because of his Hiraishin,which happens to be an instantaneous teleportation move that can top any other speed,as well,it is not speed anymore but teleportation


Naruto's clearly faster than his father in moving speed,but nothing he can do will ever top the Hiraishin,and on that same token,anyone else


Another main aspect that Tobi got in that previous predicament in the 1st place,was because he had to rush the fight,something which in this fight he doesn't have to do anymore,as his biju are all aborbed,and his focus is only on himself;thus meaning he'd be more cautious,like we've witnessed in this chapter


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## Ulqy (Jul 25, 2012)

> That's the type of attack you evade not block.



It still takes up massive amounts of chakra and is useless in this tuaiton.




> I'm not throwing my opinion in, but making a logical prediction based on Minato's personality.
> 
> And secondly you misunderstood. I didn't say anything about Minato running I was referring to him using Space Time Barrier to absorb a Biju Dama and drop it somewhere else. Not him going somewhere else.
> 
> And Minato is not restricted to Kunai. Anywhere he touches can acquire a Hiraishin seal formula.



Then what? How does that at all help him? Lets say he does prep....Tobi can just phase all of his edos to that location and eventualyl Minato will be out of stamps. Edo tensei can regenerate..THe destructive range of 6 bijuu damas is gigantic. If minato put 5 seals on the corners of the world tobi can get there instantly. If he puts one on one of the edos?So what hes within range they all blast him with bijuu dama, the edos will regenerate so destroying each other is no problem.





> Why not? Minato has already closed the Hakke Fuin on Kurama fully sealing him.
> 
> Now You *may* be right about Kyubi Chakra mode as that is chakra Naruto has separately from Kurama, but it's equally feasible that Minato could just seal that chakra off as well.



Minato has displayed no such feat or ability.

No, thats just something your assuming with no ground to stand on simply because you think its possible. And what does naruto have to do with this? Hes fighting 6 edo tensei jinchuuriki with chakra cloaks. He seals off one(Which as you know takes time) and gets blasted to hell by by 5 bijuu damas, meanwhile the edo regenerates unsealed due to its chakra network being regenerated.




> The contract seal mechanics haven't exactly been fully explained. Your statement is equal speculation to mine.



Try again, Tobi's seal with the nine tails was explained as that...a contract seal. The edo tensei are -not- contract seals. They are by no means bound to tobi through any such techniques. They are equal to paths, zombies moved by chakra rods.



> And no,he does not know how the chakra rods work, unless he has the knowledge from the chakra that was locked in Naruto and witnessed the Pain fight. Then he knows about them intimately. Ask Orochimaru if that would work.



Minato is not Orochimaru. He did not even know how old Naruto was or what he had been through thus far, yet you expect me to believe he knows in detail the weakness of his opponenet? 0/10 



> And you are right, if they go to Jinchiriki forms grabbing the rods will be very difficult.



Try impossible.




> That is not logical. He's the only one we've seen that knew that Tobirama used Space Time ninjutsu, it's not exactly common knowledge. Minato knew his history and it isn't unreasonable to say that he based his space time ninjutsu on Tobirama's. If he studied one aspect it isn't farfetched to say he was aware of the other.



Except no such thing has been proved. I'm going by facts. Whether it is far-fetched or not does not change the fact that is speculation. I want facts.




> Your opinion. And you're refusing to consider alternatives.



Your refusing to provide any.



> I was saying Tobi can't afford to sit back in his phased state in safety, because if Minato is left to his own devices then he could start to whittle away the jinchuriki paths.



Minato can not kill a single one. All of his techniques that he has shown are physical attacks which against an edo tensei is useless. He can use shiki fujin on one maybe and die in the process..but then there are 5 more and the soul he sealed would leave a hostless bijuu to go full form.

They all go cloak mode and waste him instantly with bijuu dama spam.
Or they all go full beast mode and waste him instantly with massive bijuu dama. 

There is no hope.




> And Minato has equally potent abilities and is smarter than those two.



3rd gates and up > Minatos life.

Minato would never be able to hit them, ill even toss you a bone and say that he puts a seal on them. He would never hit them with his normal human speed. The second he thrusts that rasengan or that kunai they are gone and he is dead. A swift turn and grab followed by eight gates punch.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2012)

I still vote Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 25, 2012)

Strategoob said:


> I still vote Itachi.



He'd probably re-phrase that statement if he knew Itachi had Izanami.

"holy fuck I am glad I never took him on."


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## The Prodigy (Jul 25, 2012)

Jeez a Tobi Itachi fight would be ridiculous...

Itachi would try to hit Tobi and gets phased through. Tobi would try to hit or warp Itachi, and he'll have crows out the wazoo. And that'll repeat for a while until Izanami sets it


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## JPongo (Jul 25, 2012)

Minato surpassed, gimme a break.

Died in chapter 1 and still pwning.

LOL.


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## Saunion (Jul 25, 2012)

lathia said:


> It's not that RM isn't THAT strong, but the fact that RM doesn't even put Naruto on Minato's level. Mind you, in a 1 vs 1 none of them would survive. They'd get sucked.



Of course KCM puts Naruto on Minato's level, don't be ridiculous.


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## Vice (Jul 25, 2012)

So are we under the assumption that Tobi hasn't improved at all since his fight with Minato or something?


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 25, 2012)

Vice believe it or not, that's what I've been saying the entire time.

It's like people forget what having a sharingan and rin'negnan in each eye socket can do for you. He never had that against Minato and he faced Minato not knowing his abilities. Unlike with Kakashi, he's shown that he has knowledge of his sharingan or rather his mangekyou sharingan.


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## lathia (Jul 25, 2012)

Saunion said:


> Of course KCM puts Naruto on Minato's level, don't be ridiculous.



I'm all for "match up exists," but Naruto has a tool that that resembles Hiraishin. His kagenbushins, but I haven't seen him display much. It would be unfair of me to expect Naruto to blow Tobi's arm in 3 encounters. I know, I'll give it time. 

This battle isn't about raw power, it's about precision, ingenuity, and not f'ing around or you're done. When Naruto alone can manage to land a well earned blow on Tobi, that's when I'll believe it. He needs to be serious, he has the power (no regular show pun intended).


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## Turrin (Jul 25, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato is not a terrible match up, but a good match up.
> There is merit in that argument.


He's a good match up because he's stronger than S/T Jutsu Tobi. Anything other than that is BS. 



> I am pretty sure you are one of the people who claim sharingan users are good match ups against Itachi because they possess a tool to negate/reduce effectiveness of Itachi's genjutsu, which happens to be his haxx move.


Here's the difference. Seemingly someone with Sharingan does not have to be as good at Genjutsu to counter Itachi's Genjutsu with their Sharingan. Minato needed to be more skilled with his S/T jutsu than Tobi to counter Tobi. That's the difference.



> Ofcourse Minato's STJ doesn't negate Tobi's STJ. But it allows him to go toe to toe with Tobi and counter him. For example with Hirashin, it becomes virtually impossible for Tobi to warp him unless Minato fucks up majorly. There goes down Tobi's strongest offensive move.


Tobi would have been able to warp Minato if he proved faster in their speed contest, but Minato was better than him and so he lost. Minato's S/T Jutsu usage is better than Tobi's that's all their is too it.



> Hirashin just happens to be an excellent tool(one of the few) to have when facing Tobi. There is no denying it.


Tobi has a more advanced S/T Jutsu than Minato. Minato just beat him due to superior skill. Learn to live with it.

Like I said next this forum will be telling me that because someone beat Gai at Taijutsu, he/she is a good match against Gai, which is utter BS, since he/she is simply better than Gai.


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## G Felon (Jul 25, 2012)

Lol minato greater than those 3 nice dude but c'mon tobis a lot smarter and stronger now he's not going to fall for the same thing again. Look how he's fighting he's trying to be sneaky barely taking the offensive


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## Sniffers (Jul 25, 2012)

Turrin said:


> No you are wrong. The best way to counter Tobi S/T jutsu is have an ability like Torune's, that prevents Tobi from grabbing a hold of you or causes him significant damage if he does. That's why Torune some random Jonin was able to take out Tobi's arms despite B, Kakashi, Naruto, and Gai accomplishing nothing this chapter. Raiton shroud is also an ideal counter to Tobi's S/T jutsu because if Tobi goes to grab someone using the Raiton shroud he'd be paralzyed by the raiton incurring damage and most likely preventing him from S/T warping that shinobi. Etc....


That's for when you're on the defensive when Tobi decides it's okay to be hit. Not really much of an option.. especially here.



Turrin said:


> Speed is not a good match up for Tobi, if that were the case Kakashi, Gai, and RM Naruto would have him dead to rights by now since all three of them are speedsters. Tobi is one of the fastest characters in the manga so speed does not give a person any specific advantage over Tobi's fighting style, ether your faster than him or not, which is the case with every speedster character in the manga. Minato being faster than him doesn't make him an especially good match up for S/t Jutsu Tobi, it just means he is better at using s/t jutsu than tobi
> 
> That is essentially the most difficult way to win the game though, because Tobi himself is a speed demon. So that make zero sense.
> 
> ...


Minato said it himself. The winner is the one who is slightly faster and only Minato's Hiraishin is fast enough to land a counter attack; quickly counter attacking apparently being the method to use against Tobi since that's what intelligent characters like Minato and Kakashi tried first. It's the best and most easy way _if_ your fast enough. It's just that only Minato is fast enough.. hence my point.

Minato even admitted it himself. You need a special set of abilities to fight Tobi and he had them. It's a bit like how Itachi was perfect for cancelling Edo Tensei.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 25, 2012)

To be frank, Tobi was in a rush when he fought Minato. If he fought now, playing a stalling game and aware of his jutsu, he probably would fare a lot better. Not to mention the fact that Shinra Tensei could do a number on Minato's effectiveness if Tobi can use his Rikudo powers while having Gedo Mazo do its thing. Certainly, a character whose reactions are superior to Tobi's are a worse matchup for the masked man than virtually anyone else. Characters who might be stronger than the Tobi who Minato fought like Madara might have a harder time.


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## Klue (Jul 25, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Apparently Fu and Torune> The team to, as they took his arm in one chapter



Technicality.

Tobi needed to touch Torune to warp him.

But yes, Fu and Torune > Naruto, Gai and Kakashi.


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## John Connor (Jul 25, 2012)

Vice said:


> So are we under the assumption that Tobi hasn't improved at all since his fight with Minato or something?


Tobi hasnt changed his strategy since he fought Minato

go intangible then counter attack


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## ImSerious (Jul 25, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Here's the truth of the matter:
> 
> Minato countered Tobi's S/T jutsu within a chapters time landing several effective blows on Tobi. RM Naruto, Kakashi, B, and Gai after 1 chapter only managed to scratch Tobi's mask and were left at the end of the chapter wondering how the hell they were going to actually land an effective blow on the guy. If you think that doesn't hype Minato's abilities your smoking some seriously good shit.
> 
> ...



This.


+ reps


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## Arles Celes (Jul 25, 2012)

John Connor said:


> Tobi hasnt changed his strategy since he fought Minato
> 
> go intangible then counter attack



He could have gained more experience with said ability.

And due to being humbled by Minato he could have learned to be less overconfident and more patient and cautious.


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## Lightysnake (Jul 25, 2012)

Arles Celes said:


> He could have gained more experience with said ability.
> 
> And due to being humbled by Minato he could have learned to be less overconfident and more patient and cautious.



Remember Konan? tobi gets overconfident all the time


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## ImSerious (Jul 25, 2012)

Chains > fan


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## Arles Celes (Jul 25, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> Remember Konan? tobi gets overconfident all the time



In her case he had to hold back killer intent in order to interrogate her.

That and she isn't such a legendary figure as Madara or Minato. So it isn't all that surprising that he could underestimate her.


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## kzk (Jul 25, 2012)

It's not like Naruto isn't going to defeat Tobi at some point.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Jul 25, 2012)

The truth of this is:
HIRAISHIN> Naruto+Gai+Bee.

Not minato.

If naruto had hiraishin, Tobi would have been dead.
Chou mini Bijuudama fully connecting after hiraishin? Jesus.


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## AMtrack (Jul 25, 2012)

Marsala said:


> It's the difference in speed. As fast as Naruto is, he still isn't quite a match for instantaneous teleportation.



Finally.  It has nothing to do with strength, it's about speed.  It amazes me how people still don't understand this.  Minato is way faster than Naruto+Gai+Kakashi combined due to Hiraishin.  His reflexes are probably superior too.  They have the power but they don't have the speed and smarts of Minato.

And Rinnegan does not change your physical attributes, so mentioning it is pointless.  This Tobi is the same speed-wise as the other Tobi.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 25, 2012)

Lets not forget Minato's reflexes are the best ever


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## Turrin (Jul 25, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> That's for when you're on the defensive when Tobi decides it's okay to be hit.


The point is that the type of shinobi I mentioned before would be a good match up for Tobi, rather than someone who had to be better with his S/T jutsu usage to overcome Tobi's more advanced S/T jutsu attacking a split second faster. Whether you win through defensive means or offensive means doesn't really matter. 



> especially here.


Here the best shinobi for facing Tobi, would be one who can simultaneously attack Gedou Mazou, while also keeping track of, and attacking Tobi. Since attacking Gedou Mazou forces Tobi to become solid to defend Gedou Mazou, which creates an opening to attack him. Not only is Tobi at a disadvantage here having to protect Gedou Mazou, but considering its 4v1 that allows 1-2 members of team Naruto to attack Gedou while the other 2-3 focus on Tobi, they are much better match up for Tobi under these circumstances than Minato ever was. Naruto is also an ideal match up for Tobi given the circumstance due to his high mastery of KB/TKB and exceptional powerful clones allowing him to launch attacks on multiple fronts.



> Minato said it himself. The winner is the one who is slightly faster and only Minato's Hiraishin is fast enough to land a counter attack


Minato said in their battle the winner would be decided by who was slightly faster, he did not say that the only way to defeat Tobi is to be faster than him. I mean come on now, if you had to be faster than Tobi to defeat him, no one but Minato and maybe BM Naruto could beat him and Tobi could effectively solo Edo Madara and other powerful shinobi with just his S/T jutsu, which is not happening. 

This also goes against what has been shown in cannon, since we have seen other means to defeating Tobi. Running down his S/T jutsu's time-limit and making it so it's not safe for Tobi to make physical contact with his enemy. Taking him by surprise like with Itachi's trap Amaterasu also proved effective. Finally Kakashi and Gai state feints can be used to overcome Tobi, to feint someone you don't have to be faster than them, you just have to use feints skillfully enough to get Tobi to lower his guard.



> quickly counter attacking apparently being the method to use against Tobi since that's what intelligent characters like Minato and Kakashi tried first. It's the best and most easy way if your fast enough.


The best way to counter Tobi is obviously the way, which allowed random Jonin Torune to cost Tobi an arm. To suggest otherwise is utterly ridiculous. Also nothing indicates outs speeding a speed demon like Tobi is any easier than running down the time-limit on his S/T warp, something a far less skilled ninja Konan managed to accomplish with prep (there's another shinobi who was a good match up for Tobi, not Minato). Using feints to catch Tobi off guard also seems like a more realistic means to countering Tobi's S/T warp than trying to out speed someone as fast as Tobi. 

There are also other potential counters that seem more practical, but I won't even get into them here. 



> It's just that only Minato is fast enough.. hence my point.


So because Minato beats Tobi at his own game, he is somehow a good match up for Tobi, rather than just being better than Tobi. That makes no sense.



> Minato even admitted it himself. You need a special set of abilities to fight Tobi and he had them.


The official viz translation says something different:

Minato: "Quite a formidable shinobi. Someone you need extraordinary strength to stand against and hope to have any chance of defeating."

This makes more sense than assuming Minato meant you need his abilities to defeat Tobi, considering it seems very unlikely that Tobi will be only defeated by those with space-time teleport ninjutsu. Unless your saying the only way to beat someone as fast as Tobi is to have abilities which make you faster than Tobi, but if we interpret the line that way, than that means the only shinobi so far in the entire series who could have a small chance at defeating Minato is BM Naruto, since Minato also possess space-time ninjutsu and he's even faster than Tobi with the only shinobi that might be as fast as him being BM Naruto. The latter interpretation makes little sense. 

While on the other hand the Viz translation makes a-lot more sense, considering it does not make it sound as if the only shinobi who stand a chance against Pre-Rinnegan Tobi are Minato and maybe BM Naruto. It simply suggest you need great power to defeat him, which not only Minato and BM Naruto possess. 



> It's a bit like how Itachi was perfect for cancelling Edo Tensei.


No it's not like that at all. The weakness of Edo Tensei was shown to be  Genjutsu and Itachi is one of the greatest genjutsu masters in the entire manga, bar maybe Shisui, from what we have heard so far. Thus Itachi was a good match up against Kabuto, not to mention Itachi still had help actually pulling a Genjutsu off against Kabuto, had knowledge of Edo Tensei going into that battle, and immortal body buffs, making the situation ideal for Itachi to manage to end Edo Tensei.

Minato didn't have knowledge or help. Minato simply proved more skilled at his usage of S/T Jutsu than Tobi, rather than using a different type of jutsu which was an ideal counter to Space-time ninjutsu.

A similar scenario would be if Itachi w/o help or prior intel counter Kabuto's Edo Tensei, by him being able to use a similar type of jutsu that revives the dead more skillfully than Kabuto. Than using this jutsu he defeated Kabuto. This would be a similar situation because he'd be besting Kabuto at his own game the same way Minato best Tobi at his own game.

Every single time something would hype Jiraiya or Minato, the song always remains the same with you Itachi-fans, you do everything humanly imaginable to deny it. Just accept that Minato was hyped due to outperforming Kakashi, B, Naruto, and Gai, thus far in the battle.


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## ovanz (Jul 25, 2012)

lol at the excuse of "that Tobi didn't have rinnegan" is not like Tobi is using rinnegan in this fight for anything except summoning Gedo Mazo.


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## Thor (Jul 25, 2012)

It took an entire chapter for the trio to accomplish much, much less than what Minato did in a page.


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## JPongo (Jul 25, 2012)

Fastest speed, reaction and master of seals would be a match (or more than) for any character no matter what their techniques are.

Minato is just that good.


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## ImSerious (Jul 25, 2012)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> The truth of this is:
> HIRAISHIN> Naruto+Gai+Bee.
> 
> Not minato.
> ...



wtf is this retarted post? Hiraishin is Minato's power. Just like Kyuubi is Naruto's power, Gates is Gai's power and MS is Kakashi's power.


umad cuz ur fav char doesnt have Hiraishin?


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## ItachiNamikaze (Jul 25, 2012)

Obviously havent read every post, but it seems like ppl are argueing which group (Minato or the quad) is stronger based on there fights against Tobi. As big of a fan of Minato as I am, I cant make that statement using this argument as evidence. Just because Minato has a more effective jutsu against Tobi than the quad doesnt mean hes instantly better. I still think he is, but the premise of the argument is all wrong


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## Quintessential (Jul 26, 2012)

^This
Minato fought 1 V 1. Its 4 V 1 here. Its a totally different kind of fight. makes no sense to compare the two.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 26, 2012)

Turrin's mad. Lets see



Turrin said:


> He's a good match up because he's stronger than S/T Jutsu Tobi. Anything other than that is BS.


I am not denying that Minato's skill was involved.
Its just that Hirashin is a great tool to have against Tobi's STJ.
I am not saying Konohomaru with Hirashin would defeat Tobi.



> Here's the difference. Seemingly someone with Sharingan does not have to be as good at Genjutsu to counter Itachi's Genjutsu with their Sharingan. Minato needed to be more skilled with his S/T jutsu than Tobi to counter Tobi. That's the difference.


They are not exactly the same, but same in princible.
They can't 'best' Itachi unless they are just as good. But they can counter him to some extend.

So let say, Itachi and someone as good as him in genjutsu face in battle. Itachi'd trump his opponent due to Sharingan.
But give his opponent sharingan and things will change.





> Tobi would have been able to warp Minato if he proved faster in their speed contest, but Minato was better than him and so he lost. Minato's S/T Jutsu usage is better than Tobi's that's all their is too it.


If you are talking about their last showdown, knowledge and intelligence were also factors. Minato is a more skilled shinobi.

And, Hirashin itself is faster than Tobi's STJ. Tobi'S stj is not instantaneous, but near instantaneous. Because it has a delay while casting it.
Hirashin is instant.




> Tobi has a more advanced S/T Jutsu than Minato. Minato just beat him due to superior skill. Learn to live with it.


I have nothing against that my dear Turrin. Minato is more skilled even if by a small margin.
What you should learn to live with is, the fact that Hirashin is an excellent counter against Tobi's STJ. 



> Like I said next this forum will be telling me that because someone beat Gai at Taijutsu, he/she is a good match against Gai, which is utter BS, since he/she is simply better than Gai.


Now this is  the wrong example. Nothing like I stated above.


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## ZiBi21 (Jul 26, 2012)

wait for naruto to enter biju mode and give him access to hirashin like speed...right now they just try to find a way to defeat tobi and like they said they cant get into close combat or their done and they need to stay focused...


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## Meat (Jul 26, 2012)

Main character's benchmark >>> Narutoverse

lrn2shounen


Kishi's fault. He should showcase more of Minato's skill and show us more high level fights. Not this fight with a washed up Madara (Tobi).


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## Infinite Xero (Jul 26, 2012)

Minato fans are so blind. 

1. Naruto hasn't even used his Shunshin nor his Biju Mode. 
2. Gai hasn't even used Gates. 
3. Bee hasn't even engaged Tobi directly. 
4. The Tobi that Minato fought was the weakest Tobi we have ever seen. (No genjutsu/Sharingan techniques/Rinnegan/etc.)


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 26, 2012)

Infinite Xero said:


> Minato fans are so blind.
> 
> 1. Naruto hasn't even used his Shunshin nor his Biju Mode.
> 2. Gai hasn't even used Gates.
> ...



1. you're really gonna use that argument? , in battle esp against Tobi , Naruto must use his speed , go re-read the chapter.
2. doesnt make much of a difference since Raikage with his speed still couldnt hit Tobi in the Kage Summit.
3. re-read the chapter.
4. and Tobi now didnt use any of the things you mentioned and he's smacking Naruto + Gai + Kakashi + Bee


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## Addy (Jul 26, 2012)

Infinite Xero said:


> Minato fans are so blind.
> 
> 1. Naruto hasn't even used his Shunshin nor his Biju Mode.
> 2. Gai hasn't even used Gates.
> ...



i am not a minato fan and i think he is over rated but:

1- BM >>>>>>>>>>> phasing out? especially that we saw tobi  STing GM long ago so he can do that again when naruto goes full BM.
2- BECAUSE GATES = INSTA WINS FOR GAI AGAINST PHASING THROUGH MATERIALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
3- yes, because bee has a strategy to overcome phasing out.
4-  tobi is only using ST. not sharingan rinnegan or genjutsu.

this is the same argument used against itachi when he fought BM naruto where i actually thought naruto was not serious until i saw how fucking retarded he was the next chapter against nagato


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## Sniffers (Jul 26, 2012)

Since you resort to ad hominem and your walls of texts to counter a single of my sentences is a bother anyway, I'll make this my last response to you here. I rarely do agree anyway.



Turrin said:


> The point is that the type of shinobi I mentioned before would be a good match up for Tobi, rather than someone who had to be better with his S/T jutsu usage to overcome Tobi's more advanced S/T jutsu attacking a split second faster. Whether you win through defensive means or offensive means doesn't really matter.


A defensive style is inappropriate _here_ in the first place. 



Turrin said:


> Here the best shinobi for facing Tobi, would be one who can simultaneously attack Gedou Mazou, while also keeping track of, and attacking Tobi. Since attacking Gedou Mazou forces Tobi to become solid to defend Gedou Mazou, which creates an opening to attack him. Not only is Tobi at a disadvantage here having to protect Gedou Mazou, but considering its 4v1 that allows 1-2 members of team Naruto to attack Gedou while the other 2-3 focus on Tobi, they are much better match up for Tobi under these circumstances than Minato ever was. Naruto is also an ideal match up for Tobi given the circumstance due to his high mastery of KB/TKB and exceptional powerful clones allowing him to launch attacks on multiple fronts.


That's all true. That only shows more about how the fights are completely different, because not only is Tobi on the defensive now, rather than taking risks on the offensive, he does have something he wants to protect this time around with a superior weapon and no blind eye.



Turrin said:


> Minato said in their battle the winner would be decided by who was slightly faster, he did not say that the only way to defeat Tobi is to be faster than him. I mean come on now, if you had to be faster than Tobi to defeat him, no one but Minato and maybe BM Naruto could beat him and Tobi could effectively solo Edo Madara and other powerful shinobi with just his S/T jutsu, which is not happening.
> 
> This also goes against what has been shown in cannon, since we have seen other means to defeating Tobi. Running down his S/T jutsu's time-limit and making it so it's not safe for Tobi to make physical contact with his enemy. Taking him by surprise like with Itachi's trap Amaterasu also proved effective. Finally Kakashi and Gai state feints can be used to overcome Tobi, to feint someone you don't have to be faster than them, you just have to use feints skillfully enough to get Tobi to lower his guard.


Look if you are going to quote each sentence separately (_or even just two word!_) then of course you can pick them apart, because you don't see the whole point I'm trying to make. The next sentences was tied to this one and answers your argument here.



Turrin said:


> The best way to counter Tobi is obviously the way, which allowed random Jonin Torune to cost Tobi an arm. To suggest otherwise is utterly ridiculous. Also nothing indicates outs speeding a speed demon like Tobi is any easier than running down the time-limit on his S/T warp, something a far less skilled ninja Konan managed to accomplish with prep (there's another shinobi who was a good match up for Tobi, not Minato). Using feints to catch Tobi off guard also seems like a more realistic means to countering Tobi's S/T warp than trying to out speed someone as fast as Tobi.
> 
> There are also other potential counters that seem more practical, but I won't even get into them here.


Yeah, but Konan required massive prep and Torune's ability is neat as well, although he lacks a complete set of abilities to truly stand a chance against Tobi... unlike Minato. The point is that the most straight forward method is to quickly counter attack. Who is the quickest counter attacker in the world again?



Turrin said:


> So because Minato beats Tobi at his own game, he is somehow a good match up for Tobi, rather than just being better than Tobi. That makes no sense.


You are putting words in my mouth. Minato's unique set of abilities (and the situation) forced a who-strikes-first-wins scenario, which is a game Minato is better at. So yeah, that makes him a good match-up.



Turrin said:


> The official viz translation says something different:
> 
> Minato: "Quite a formidable shinobi. Someone you need extraordinary strength to stand against and hope to have any chance of defeating."
> 
> ...


Yeah, other translations really say "_unique_" or "_special_" abilities. VIZ' is not technically wrong, but loses some of its accuracy. Incredible speed and reflexes are not the only "_special set of abilities_" one can imagine. It's one of them.



Turrin said:


> No it's not like that at all. The weakness of Edo Tensei was shown to be  Genjutsu and Itachi is one of the greatest genjutsu masters in the entire manga, bar maybe Shisui, from what we have heard so far. Thus Itachi was a good match up against Kabuto, not to mention Itachi still had help actually pulling a Genjutsu off against Kabuto, had knowledge of Edo Tensei going into that battle, and immortal body buffs, making the situation ideal for Itachi to manage to end Edo Tensei.
> 
> Minato didn't have knowledge or help. Minato simply proved more skilled at his usage of S/T Jutsu than Tobi, rather than using a different type of jutsu which was an ideal counter to Space-time ninjutsu.
> 
> A similar scenario would be if Itachi w/o help or prior intel counter Kabuto's Edo Tensei, by him being able to use a similar type of jutsu that revives the dead more skillfully than Kabuto. Than using this jutsu he defeated Kabuto. This would be a similar situation because he'd be besting Kabuto at his own game the same way Minato best Tobi at his own game.


Ugh, we'll never agree on what's comparable in what way.



Turrin said:


> Every single time something would hype Jiraiya or Minato, the song always remains the same with you Itachi-fans, you do everything humanly imaginable to deny it. Just accept that Minato was hyped due to outperforming Kakashi, B, Naruto, and Gai, thus far in the battle.


Aaand we're back at ad hominem... 

Minato did do better, but that's because his skill set is better for fighting this guy. Naruto can't go BM and B's mass destruction also isn't quite that useful while Kakashi's Kamui is somehow ineffective against both Tobi and Gedo. Their best abilities are basically useless against Tobi. Hiraishin, on the other hand, made the difference for Minato. Do get my point now? It's still all Minato's skill and so on, but you simply can't deny his skill set is just better suited against Tobi than the current team's.




Also, the fight isn't over yet. The battle mask will most likely crack, regardless of the Rinnegan and battle fan. So, I wouldn't conclude Minato outperformed them since it likely will be the opposite soon.. There is no shame in that since this is a team after all and Naruto was always destined to outperform his dad against Tobi.


----------



## Garfield (Jul 26, 2012)

Synn said:


> In control of the situation, you say?
> 
> tsukami
> 
> Bee was ready to stab Minato, too.


Try assuming the position Bee was in and try to strike your left arm backwards. How much was your degree of mobility and ability to strike with force?

Now assume Minato's position.


Yeah, Bee was clearly in the wrong position.


----------



## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Jul 26, 2012)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> The truth of this is:
> HIRAISHIN> Naruto+Gai+Bee.
> 
> Not minato.
> ...



*FUCKING THANK YOUU!!*

i mean seriously people, what part of "Minato's hirashin being the perfect counter to tobi's fighting style" do you not understand?!!

its just like konan's fuckin paper ocean!

How the fuck does this battle hype minato's overall abilities and makes him godly strong? tobi has absolutely no way around hirashin, nor paper ocean. the tobi vs minato battle is highly overrated beyond recognition.

remember, some characters are just undoubtedly perfect counters to others.

Gai>Kisame
Deidara>Gaara
minato>tobi
neji>kidomaru
Kisame>Tailed Beasts

and so on and so fourth.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Jul 26, 2012)

Honestly, Kishi will do whatever it takes to make an interesting battle, regardless if it makes certain characters look good or bad.

I mean, Kakashi *spoke two whole sentences* in the time it took a kunai to fly less than one meter.


----------



## Sniffers (Jul 26, 2012)

Dat RickMartin said:


> dark messiah verdandi said:
> 
> 
> > The truth of this is:
> ...


Exacta! 



Fruit Monger said:


> Honestly, Kishi will do whatever it takes to make an interesting battle, regardless if it makes certain characters look good or bad.
> 
> I mean, Kakashi *spoke two whole sentences* in the time it took a kunai to fly less than one meter.


Haha! Yeah, I noticed that too and scratched my head. It's just a manga after all.


----------



## Garfield (Jul 26, 2012)

Dat RickMartin said:


> *FUCKING THANK YOUU!!*
> 
> i mean seriously people, what part of "Minato's hirashin being the perfect counter to tobi's fighting style" do you not understand?!!
> 
> ...


 I just wish you were a troll, at least you'd be funny.


"Oh no no no, it's America's massive missile silo that's super imposing and scary, America isn't imposing and scary"

yeah, you don't make sense.

I imagine you'd be the kind to kill someone and say, "Oh no, my gun killed you, not me!"


----------



## alchemy1234 (Jul 26, 2012)

Tobi is far stronger and better at using his abilities now.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 26, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Since you resort to ad hominem and your walls of texts to counter a single of my sentences is a bother anyway, I'll make this my last response to you here. I rarely do agree anyway.


I'm sorry but I just see an ever recurring pattern.



> A defensive style is inappropriate here in the first place.


Of course it's inappropriate here, I was just showing you what a good match up against Tobi was.



> That's all true. That only shows more about how the fights are completely different


Yeah they are different Team Naruto has a greater advantage than Minato did.



> because not only is Tobi on the defensive now, rather than taking risks on the offensive


Team Naruto has had more openings to land attacks on Tobi than Minato did.



> he does have something he wants to protect this time around with a superior weapon and no blind eye.


Having to protect gedou mazou makes it easier on team naruto. Fan is the same thing as chains, both are weapons that work well with Tobi's fighting style. No blind I eye give me a break with your excuses, it's not like Minato landed his hit on Tobi by attacking a blind spot.



> Yeah, but Konan required massive prep and Torune's ability is neat as well, although he lacks a complete set of abilities to truly stand a chance against Tobi... unlike Minato.


Yes they lack a complete set of abilities because they are inferior shinobi to Minato. That doesn't change the fact that they had techniques and in Konan's case knowledge that made them more ideal match ups for Tobi than Minato.



> The point is that the most straight forward method is to quickly counter attack.


The most straight forward method, does not given the opposing shinobi any certain advantage over Tobi. The straight forward method requires that shinobi to best Tobi at his own game.



> Who is the quickest counter attacker in the world again?


Minato because he is better than Tobi with his usage of S/T jutsu, not because he has any particular advantage.



> You are putting words in my mouth. Minato's unique set of abilities (and the situation) forced a who-strikes-first-wins scenario, which is a game Minato is better at. So yeah, that makes him a good match-up.


Both their abilities forced the "who-strikes-first-wins scenario". Minato was simply better than Tobi end of story.



> Yeah, other translations really say "unique" or "special" abilities. VIZ' is not technically wrong, but loses some of its accuracy.


Viz tends to be one of if not thee most accurate translation. 



> Incredible speed and reflexes are not the only "special set of abilities" one can imagine. It's one of them.


If there are many different sets of abilities that would allow someone to defeat Tobi, some even being more effective than Minato's, your point is moot anyway.



> Ugh, we'll never agree on what's comparable in what way.


Sigh...you know your wrong, just admit it.



> Naruto can't go BM and B's mass destruction also isn't quite that useful while Kakashi's Kamui is somehow ineffective against both Tobi and Gedo. Their best abilities are basically useless against Tobi.


My point was that Minato did better than they did this chapter. That doesn't mean they couldn't do better later in this battle. They haven't used their best abilities yet (except Kakashi), that doesn't make them ineffective. 



> Hiraishin, on the other hand, made the difference for Minato. Do get my point now? It's still all Minato's skill and so on, but you simply can't deny his skill set is just better suited against Tobi than the current team's.


No I don't get your point because FTG did not make the difference for Minato, since Tobi has a more advanced S/T jutsu. What made the difference for Minato is that he proved more skillful than Tobi to the point where he was able to use a less advanced S/T jutsu to best someone with a more advanced S/T jutsu. 

I don't know why it's so hard for you to just admit Minato is stronger than S/T  Tobi and stronger than the combined abilities Naruto, B, Kakashi, and Gai showed this chapter.  



> Also, the fight isn't over yet. The battle mask will most likely crack, regardless of the Rinnegan and battle fan. So, I wouldn't conclude Minato outperformed them since it likely will be the opposite soon..


Dude nothing will change the fact that Minato outperformed there performance _this _chapter. I'm not saying Minato will necessarily continue to outperform them. 



> There is no shame in that since this is a team after all and Naruto was always destined to outperform his dad against Tobi.


I wounder what people will say if RM Naruto, Gai, Kakashi, and B all have to go all out just to recreate Minato's feat against Tobi. Or if Naruto has to go BM and get help from the other three. Not saying this will happen, I just wonder what BS this forum is going to come up with to undercut Minato's achievement if it were to happen.


----------



## Final Jutsu (Jul 26, 2012)

Unless they kill Tobi, they aren't outperforming Minato.  Tobi was tagged.  At that point, there was jack shit he could do.  Any attack by Tobi would get instantly countered by Minato.  He ran for a reason.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 26, 2012)

Final Jutsu said:


> Unless they kill Tobi, they aren't outperforming Minato.  Tobi was tagged.  At that point, there was jack shit he could do.  Any attack by Tobi would get instantly countered by Minato.  He ran for a reason.



I know it's fun to assume Tobi was completely helpless, and that's why he ran, but the reality is that once his Kyuubi was taken from him, he literally had no reason to stay anymore. 

For him to stay and use Izanagi would be completely pointless. He'd gain _nothing_ by fighting any further, yet he'd be at risk to lose _everything_ the entire time.

Look at it from that perspective.


----------



## Final Jutsu (Jul 26, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> I know it's fun to assume Tobi was completely helpless, and that's why he ran, but the reality is that once his Kyuubi was taken from him, he literally had no reason to stay anymore.
> 
> For him to stay and use Izanagi would be completely pointless. He'd gain _nothing_ by fighting any further, yet he'd be at risk to lose _everything_ the entire time.
> 
> Look at it from that perspective.




Izanagi would be useless.  Minato already avoided an ambush attack from Tobi.  Tobi alone couldn't win at that point.  He was tagged.  He'd have to go tangible whenever he would want to attack.  Minato would instantly counter every time.  Nothing beats Hiraishin speed.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 26, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> I know it's fun to assume Tobi was completely helpless, and that's why he ran, but the reality is that once his Kyuubi was taken from him, he literally had no reason to stay anymore.
> 
> For him to stay and use Izanagi would be completely pointless. He'd gain _nothing_ by fighting any further, yet he'd be at risk to lose _everything_ the entire time.
> 
> Look at it from that perspective.



whoa,hold on here.  so let me get this straight.

tobi plans for who knows how long enough that he states "he's waited SOOOO long for this" frees kyuubi from it's jinchurrikki(step 1) and then proceeds to use kyuubi to destroy konoha(step 2)

the only reason he even directly confronted minato, was to prevent him from stopping kyuubi from destroying konoha.

so he's not serious(i call bullshit) and he just decides to let minato go and stop kyuubi?

so he waited so long,initially tries to prevent minato from stopping kyuubi,then just decides to let minato go and stop kyuubi.

yeah great logic. face it minato had the tools and skills to end him,he removed his control from kyuubi,and tagged him,so that at any time (if they continued to battle) minato could insta warp to tobi. how many rasengans could tobi of taken? 

so whats more logical-he just up and decided to leave cause he wasn't serious and decided to let minato stop the destruction of konoha(even though the whole reason to fight minato in the first place was to prevent minato from doing just that)

or

he was outmatched and further engagement could of been very detrimental to his health?


----------



## Turrin (Jul 26, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> I know it's fun to assume Tobi was completely helpless, and that's why he ran, but the reality is that once his Kyuubi was taken from him, he literally had no reason to stay anymore.
> 
> For him to stay and use Izanagi would be completely pointless. He'd gain _nothing_ by fighting any further, yet he'd be at risk to lose _everything_ the entire time.
> 
> Look at it from that perspective.


If Tobi held Minato off just a little bit longer the village probably would have been destroyed as Hiruzen and company looked like they were in no condition to stop Kurama's next Bijuu dama. Also if he had defeated Minato, than Kurama would not have been sealed and he could have taken repossession of it. In which case he would have succeeded in all of his goals by now. So yes Tobi had plenty to gain.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 26, 2012)

Tobi never used genjutsu, Izanagi or his fan against Minato. 

This Tobi is much powerful with Rinnegan and a fan that can absorb Rasengan and break rocks. The gap between the Minato Tobi and the Kakashi Tobi is huge.


----------



## ImSerious (Jul 26, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Tobi never used genjutsu, Izanagi or his fan against Minato.
> 
> This Tobi is much powerful with Rinnegan and a fan that can absorb Rasengan and break rocks. The gap between the Minato Tobi and the Kakashi Tobi is huge.



Tobi didnt use Izanagi or genjutsu this chapter, so thats irrelevant.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 26, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Tobi never used genjutsu, Izanagi or his fan against Minato.



^ excuses
he didn't have the fan with him.

izanagi isn't guaranteed to even work,but it is guaranteed to cost an eye.

and after kyuubi control was taken away,tobi could've tried genjutsu yet he didn't. hell even during,as even kakashi can genjutsu multiple targets. yet he never made an attempt.


----------



## principito (Jul 26, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Seriously, Tobi uses nothing but taijutsu and phasing and yet they couldn't land a single blow.
> 
> Hirashin is really too powerful. It makes the difference.



Well, nobody ever in the manga was labeled as "flee on sight", he took Tobi one on one and Tobi ended without one arm due to a rasengan attached to his back

So yeah, Dat Minato was a fucking boss


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 26, 2012)

After the Kyuubi was released Tobi fled. He had no reason to stick around, but if he did then he would have most likely used Izanagi or sharingan genjutsu.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 26, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> After the Kyuubi was released Tobi fled. He had no reason to stick around, but if he did then he would have most likely used Izanagi or sharingan genjutsu.



uh actually he did have a reason to stick around. stopping minato from stopping kyuubi from destroying konoha.

thats the whole reason he engaged minato in the first place.

so he fights minato to prevent,him from stopping kyuubi,then decided to leave allowing minato to stop kyuubi.

that doesn't make a whole lot of sense,now does it.


----------



## principito (Jul 26, 2012)

Dat RickMartin said:


> *FUCKING THANK YOUU!!*
> 
> i mean seriously people, what part of "Minato's hirashin being the perfect counter to tobi's fighting style" do you not understand?!!
> 
> ...



So I guess Itachi is not powerful... its his sharingan.....

So give that sharingan to ramen guy and he's the powerful one?

FUCKING RETARDED


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 26, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> uh actually he did have a reason to stick around. stopping minato from stopping kyuubi from destroying konoha.



Your implying that Tobi has knowledge on Minato's death god. Since that is the only jutsu that Minato can use to stop the Kyuubi.


> thats the whole reason he engaged minato in the first place.



He engaged Minato to stop him from getting in his way. But when Minato released the Kyuubi out of Tobi's control there was absolutely no reason for him to stay. He wanted revenge, in other word he wanted to destroy Konoha himself. How can he do that when he has no longer control of his weapon.



> so he fights minato to prevent,him from stopping kyuubi,then decided to leave allowing minato to stop kyuubi.
> 
> that doesn't make a whole lot of sense,now does it.



You got it wrong. He fought Minato to stop him from getting in his way of destroying Konoha. But when Minato took away the control of the Kyuubi away from Tobi, he had no option to retreat. Since without the Kyuubi he does not have the firepower to destroy Konoha. His whole plan revolved over the Kyuubi which is why he waited until Kushina seal was weaken to release the Kyuubi.


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 26, 2012)

so, kyuubi wasn't going to destroy konoha,not even any collateral damage just from being in the village? so kyuubi's gonna wake up from being released of the genjutsu to a whole village attacking him and,let me guess,he's just gonna retreat?

he engaged minato to stop him from stopping kyuubi. he lost control yes,but that doesn't explain his reasoning to allow minato to continue on to stop kyuubi.

he allowed it because with being tagged and out matched would risk either great bodily harm or death.


----------



## Kai (Jul 26, 2012)

Minato was never portrayed as permanently beating any of his opponents, although Kishimoto has abruptly ended the fights when it was quite clear Minato was their superior in battle.

Minato beat out Tobi in speed/reaction timing and similarly so with the Raikage. Now this chapter doesn't make Minato > Kakashi + Gai + Naruto _that_ easily transitive but it does accurately portray and define the reality and impact of truly instant attacks, namely Hiraishin. Minato's dexterity with the jutsu is just unheard of.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 26, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> so, kyuubi wasn't going to destroy konoha,not even any collateral damage just from being in the village? so kyuubi's gonna wake up from being released of the genjutsu to a whole village attacking him and,let me guess,he's just gonna retreat?
> 
> he engaged minato to stop him from stopping kyuubi. he lost control yes,but that doesn't explain his reasoning to allow minato to continue on to stop kyuubi.
> 
> he allowed it because with being tagged and out matched would risk either great bodily harm or death.



Your still not getting it. 

*1.* Tobi plan was to destroy Konoha, he wanted revenge therefore he wanted to destroy Konoha himself. This plan includes him controlling the Kyuubi and using it to destroy Konoha.
*2.* Tobi engaged Minato to stop him from *interrupting his plan* to destroy Konoha with the Kyuubi. 
*3.* But when the moment Tobi lost control of the Kyuubi he fled. 

Note number 3, the moment he lost the Kyuubi he fled.


----------



## Kai (Jul 26, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> *3.* But when the moment Tobi lost control of the Kyuubi he fled.
> 
> Note number 3, the moment he lost the Kyuubi he fled.


Nothing suggests this was the only reason. Note that once he lost the battle of 'speed', he fled as well. They happened more or less at the same time.

Most likely it isn't simply one factor and the fact that Minato injured him for the first time in his life probably contributed to his retreat.


----------



## PopoTime (Jul 26, 2012)

Kakashi and Gai can't move at Minato's speed.

The only comparable speed to minato is BM Naruto, RM is still to slow at this point.

Plus, didnt Minato only manage to make contact with Tobi due to Hiraishin allowing him to attack from a different direction instantaneously?.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 26, 2012)

Kai said:


> Nothing suggests this was the only reason. Note that once he lost the battle of 'speed', he fled as well. They happened more or less at the same time.
> 
> Most likely it isn't simply one factor and the fact that Minato injured him for the first time in his life probably contributed to his retreat.



The most logical assumption is that he fled when he knows he cannot continue with his plan. Otherwise Minato injuring would have fueled his revenge even further, but instead he fled. Tobi losing an arm is not a big deal to him when he can easily replace it, he still had other options such as Izanagi.


----------



## RickMartin Ben Janardhan (Jul 26, 2012)

adee said:


> I just wish you were a troll, at least you'd be funny.
> 
> 
> "Oh no no no, it's America's massive missile silo that's super imposing and scary, America isn't imposing and scary"
> ...



Minato is just overall tobi's counter. nothing more nothing less.




principito said:


> *So I guess Itachi is not powerful... its his sharingan.....
> 
> So give that sharingan to ramen guy and he's the powerful one?
> *
> FUCKING RETARDED



*EXACTLYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*  Atleast ur smart! itachi aint shit without dat dayumn sharingan. his entire jutsu set stems from it. while sasuke and madara have a different story.

if you havent noticed that then ur Fuckin Retarded!


----------



## Kai (Jul 26, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> The most logical assumption is that he fled when he knows he cannot continue with his plan.


Getting beat is the fastest way for plans to end or be compromised.



			
				Kakashi Hatake said:
			
		

> Otherwise Minato injuring would have fueled his revenge even further, but instead he fled.


Tobi wasn't at all angry or fueled by such when he got injured. In fact he even commended Minato for it and said Minato deserved the title that he holds, just before leaving. 



			
				Kakashi Hatake said:
			
		

> Tobi losing an arm is not a big deal to him when he can easily replace it, he still had other options such as Izanagi.


Minato also had other options like Kuchiyose and Shiki Fuujin. Minato was supposed to be the superior there but it was implied that Tobi was more dangerous and would be unstoppable by Minato had he returned a second time as a more complete and fleshed out individual.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 26, 2012)

Kai said:


> Getting beat is the fastest way for plans to end or be compromised.



Losing an arm that he can easily replace does not mean he was beaten as he still had other options. His plan involved Kyuubi and when he lost it, his plan was finished. 


> Tobi wasn't at all angry or fueled by such when he got injured. In fact he even commended Minato for it and said Minato deserved the title that he holds, just before leaving.
> 
> Minato also had other options like Kuchiyose and Shiki Fuujin. Minato was supposed to be the superior there but it was implied that Tobi was more dangerous and would be unstoppable by Minato had he returned a second time as a more complete and fleshed out individual.



Yes even with other options for Minato, he still thought only Naruto could defeat Tobi with the power of Kyuubi.


----------



## Summers (Jul 26, 2012)

Every chapter that Naruto does insta pwn his enemies on serves to raise Minata's level, just like when sasuke doesn't insta-pwn any enemy that can be remotely connected to Itachi proves Itachi is greater than we thought he was.


"I love this shit...This shit gets me hard."


----------



## sinjin long (Jul 26, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> The most logical assumption is that he fled when he knows he cannot continue with his plan. Otherwise Minato injuring would have fueled his revenge even further, but instead he fled. Tobi losing an arm is not a big deal to him when he can easily replace it, he still had other options such as Izanagi.



YOU are not understanding.

tobi engaged minato to PREVENT him from stopping the kyuubi.

that is the WHOLE point of engaging minato. TO STOP HIM from stopping kyuubi.

yes kyuubi control was taken from him. did kyuubi just disappear? did he just stop fighting? was he not still loose in/around the village engaged by shinobi?

so for all intensive purposes kyuubi was still destroying the village,con trolled or not,kyuubi was still destroying the village,so step 2 of plan is still active.

so,tobi confronts minato to ensure that he cannot directly interfere with step 2.

direct kyuubi control is removed via contract seal,yet step 2 is still underway,kyuubi is still destroying village,minato is still not there to stop kyuubi.

yet step 2 is still active,the shinobi who tobi directly engaged to prevent the interruption of step 2 is still otherwise occupied by tobi.

so at this point the plan of using kyuubi to destroy konoha is still happening and the 4th is still unable to go back and stop the kyuubi.

and then tobi just leaves? letting minato return to attempt to stop kyuubi,even though the whole reason to engage minato was NOT to continue keeping control of kyuubi,but to PREVENT him from stopping kyuubi.

having his control removed does not stop kyuubi from destroying the village.
letting minato go stop the kyuubi(which is the entire reason he fought minato in the first place) is what stops the kyuubi from destroying the village.

so why did he leave? kyuubi is still in the village destroying it,minato is not there to stop him, so again why leave? his goal is still being accomplished.

it's because at the point to further engage minato to prevent him from stopping the beast,has too much risk to tobi himself.in either bodily harm or death.  if he continues there are  results- 

he kills/injures/stops minato,kyuubi still destroys the village.

minato kills/injures/stops tobi,he's dead,minato is free to stop the kyuubi.

he retreats,he lives,minato is free to stop the kyuubi.

what was the goal again? konoha's destruction.

whats the difference between him continuing to fight or retreating,either way minato is still free to stop the kyuubi,except if he retreats,he gets to survive.

classic risk vs reward.


----------



## Kai (Jul 26, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Losing an arm that he can easily replace does not mean he was beaten as he still had other options. His plan involved Kyuubi and when he lost it, his plan was finished.


Actually he got injured by Rasengan, was tagged, blitzed again by Minato, and lost control over Kyuubi. All things considered are what is most likely for the cause of his flee.



			
				Kakashi Hatake said:
			
		

> Yes even with other options for Minato, he still thought only Naruto could defeat Tobi with the power of Kyuubi.


Minato beat him in battle but didn't beat him in war. Naruto is supposed to be the only person who can permanently end Tobi's madness.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Jul 26, 2012)

Sorry kids but when Tobi is hit by a Frog Kata...don't be mad when you see threads saying Kishi really meant Sage Mode Naruto surpassed his father way back. Lmao.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 26, 2012)

Kai said:


> Nothing suggests this was the only reason. Note that once he lost the battle of 'speed', he fled as well. They happened more or less at the same time.
> 
> Most likely it isn't simply one factor and the fact that Minato injured him for the first time in his life probably contributed to his retreat.



I am with Kai on this one.

Having Kyuubi under his control only made him rush the fight. He may have been careless, but it didn't weaken him or anything. In a direct confrontation, he lost to Minato. Hirashin tag is as good as an OHKO move. Once you are tagged(unless you have a way to remove the tag) its pretty much over for you. There is no point in fighting from that moment on.

Not only Tobi was tagged, but he was also wounded. Losing Kyuubi might be one of the factors why he left, but certainly not the only one. The dude was melting lol, he had his own ass to worry about.


----------



## DraconianMithril (Jul 26, 2012)

Kyuubi is more powerful than 7 bijuu combined, showed much more aptitude for fighting than the 8 tails ever showed.

So with that knowledge Minato + Kushina> Team Naruto. Minato and Kushina straight up Defeated the Kyuubi, both were drained, and the later 90% dead.

Tobi is using the same level of skill he used against Minato against Team Naruto, however Minato utterly destroyed Tobi, Minato unscratched, Tobi... 

Minato can actually defeat Team Naruto. He was the 4th Hokage, the strongest shinobi of the last 20yrs. Never in this Manga has anyone been stated to be more powerful than Minato. Everyone keeps Saying Naruto is close to his father, but no one out right agrees he has succeeded him. No one in this manga bar the Sage of Six Paths and Juubi, Hashirama and Madara is stronger than Minato according to Kishimoto, not yet. So..please you guys? okay?


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## αce (Jul 26, 2012)

> Minato can actually defeat Team Naruto



Should have stopped here. Let's see where this goes.


> Never in this Manga has anyone been stated to be more powerful than Minato



Oh boy.





> Everyone keeps Saying Naruto is close to his father, but no one out right agrees he has succeeded him


What fucking forum are you on?


> No one in this manga is stronger than Minato according to Kishimoto, not yet. So..please you guys? okay?


Madara disagrees.
And if you think Minato is stronger than Edo Madara tell us now so we can ignore you.


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## αce (Jul 26, 2012)

NICE FUCKING EDIT


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## John Connor (Jul 26, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> What fucking forum are you on?
> 
> 
> Madara disagrees.
> And if you think Minato is stronger than Edo Madara tell us now so we can ignore you.


strength is meaningless against the Flying Thunder God of Konoha


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## αce (Jul 26, 2012)

> strength is meaningless against the Flying Thunder God of Konoha


Well he just edited and admitted Madara and Hashirama were stronger.
As is Tobi to be honest. And yes, strength is meaningless. However, being more broken than Minato is not something to take lightly. 

Madara is by far the most broken character in this manga.






As for this thread, it's been stated by multiple other users but for some reason it isn't sinking in. Speed is pointless against Tobi considering he's fast himself. Instantaneous teleportation however, is not, since he cannot react when it's act point blank.

Minato's space/time countered Tobi perfectly. He was just a better match up. It doesn't mean that he's stronger than Naruto, Gai and Kakashi.


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## DraconianMithril (Jul 26, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> What fucking forum are you on?
> 
> 
> Madara disagrees.
> And if you think Minato is stronger than Edo Madara tell us now so we can ignore you.



I'm talking about the people in the manga mah dude. Who cares what we as fans think, in the manga no one who is much more powerful than Minato was made apparent to us besides the Sage, Juubi, Hashi, and Madrama. 

So anyone who think's Tobi can defeat Minato, heres a lesson for you. "If you can't Sing, sit down."

Seriously what can Tobi do!!?? Against Naruto's father?


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## αce (Jul 26, 2012)

> I'm talking about the people in the manga mah dude. Who cares what we as  fans think, in the manga no one who was much more powerful than Minato  was made apparent to us besides the Sage, Juubi, Hashi, and Madrama.



I'd disagree as I think Sasuke and Naruto are clearly above him at this point. Itachi and Minato were Naruto and Sasuke's benchmarks.

Minato was surpassed, which is why we went through a slew of chapters depicting Naruto's speed and comparing it to Yondaime's. Itachi was surpassed when Sasuke took his eyes.

Hashirama and Madara are the final benchmarks for Sasuke and Naruto, not their relatives.



> So anyone who think's Tobi can defeat Minato, heres a lesson for you. "If you can't Sing, sit down."



Tobi with 6 Jinchuuriki's and Gedo Mazou.
I'm almost more than certain that Minato would either just run out of chakra or die trying.

Although if I'm correct, Tobi doesn't even need them. If Tobi had human path that night against Minato, he would've died the moment he touched him from behind.


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## lathia (Jul 26, 2012)

Yeah! Human Path would rip Minato's soul out instantly like it did on Naruto. He can't escape via Hiraishin.


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## Ƶero (Jul 26, 2012)

hahahahahaha I love how Minato stomped Tobi, I bet he was crying under that mask 

Yeah, Minato solos.


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## αce (Jul 26, 2012)

I originally thought that was human path, but it wasn't. He was trying to suck him into his dimension as someone pointed out to me before. If he kills Naruto the Kyuubi dies as well and get's revived later on. That's completely counter productive as he's clearly trying to rush the moons eye plan.

Nice try though, the sarcasm wasn't necessary but it was cute. Next.


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## lathia (Jul 26, 2012)

I don't see how anything you said deals with what I said. If you believe Human Path acts "instant," even though the manga didn't showcase that, then by all means believe in your fantasies.


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## αce (Jul 26, 2012)

I was responding to your non-point with the Naruto example. Actually, you're right, I'll admit. It doesn't act instantly. However, no one's ever resisted or been able to move when human path touches the head. Of course that would be difficult given Minato's reaction time.

Not like these little arguments matter much, as I still hold the view that with the Rinnegan and Izanagi abilities, Minato would get tossed like a rag doll if he fought Tobi with no pre-set conditions.

And calling my beliefs fantasy, because they've never happened is ironic coming from a guy who thinks Minato's shiki fuujin extracts souls in 3 seconds flat with an unrestrained target, which by the way, has never happened either.

Oh wait lathia.
Why am I talking to you?
Good day.


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## sinjin long (Jul 26, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Not like these little arguments matter much, as I still hold the view that with the Rinnegan and Izanagi abilities, Minato would get tossed like a rag doll if he fought Tobi with no pre-set conditions.



tobi had izanagi as a viable action when he fought minato. he chose not to use it.at best izanagi only creates an opportunity for a sneak attack(at the cost of an eye)a tactic he already tried,and failed.

its not like minato would see tobi disappear and suddenly drop his guard.

the only reason it probably even worked against konnan is that she never saw it due to the nature of her paper ocean attack.


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## John Connor (Jul 26, 2012)

Izanagi wouldnt work because all it is is a surprise attack and those dont work on Minato

Izanami wouldnt work because Minato doesnt deny his destiny


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## PopoTime (Jul 26, 2012)

How can you compete against a guy that soloes platoons of ninja for breakfast?


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## The Prodigy (Jul 26, 2012)

Unless your name is one of the 3 your chances of defeating Tobi are slim at best...

Itachi, Minato, & Madara


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## lathia (Jul 26, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> I was responding to your non-point with the Naruto example. Actually, you're right, I'll admit. It doesn't act instantly. However, no one's ever resisted or been able to move when human path touches the head. Of course that would be difficult given Minato's reaction time.
> 
> Not like these little arguments matter much, as I still hold the view that with the Rinnegan and Izanagi abilities, Minato would get tossed like a rag doll if he fought Tobi with no pre-set conditions.
> 
> ...



Being 12 years old does not excuse you from not being told when you're wrong. I also await another neg after this, so please continue .

You have this fake belief that because something acted this way on X fodder character, it will act the same on Y non-fodder character. It's wrong. Naruto had plenty of mobility even after having his soul sucked (Rasengan). So Hiraishin would suffice for him to get out. I read your "touching his head" argument. Like you said, it ain't going to happen.  

Furthermore, lets look at the difference b/w Sarutobi's usage of Shikki Fujin and Minato. Sarutobi outright told Orochimaru he would show him a new jutsu. Even Oro's anticipation lead him nowhere. That's not even considering Minato can use it as a long range attack. Don't even bring the "It failed to kill Oro argument." Don't even compare his usage to Minato's.

So I ask you, what's stopping Minato from soloing anyone bar RS/Biju's in a single swoop of an invisible arm? Nothing. Don't be mad, Ace. Power means nothing in front of a god. Minato never loses, he ties .


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## timmysblood (Jul 26, 2012)

John Connor said:


> Tobi hasnt changed his strategy since he fought Minato
> 
> go intangible then counter attack




Strategy doesn't mean strength/reflexes/speed/experience/skill ect; By your logic Lee is as strong as Gai since they use the same strategy in their fights.

To assume that Tobi now is not stronger in some way, in at least experience/skill is ridiculous. Not to mention the fight isn't even close to over, it won't surprise me when Naruto defeats Tobi and is declared stronger then Minato.

But then I guess all the Minato fans would be rallying against it.

The thing is I actually like Minato, his fandom is really annoying though.


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## lathia (Jul 26, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> tobi had izanagi as a viable action when he fought minato. he chose not to use it.at best izanagi only creates an opportunity for a sneak attack(at the cost of an eye)a tactic he already tried,and failed.
> 
> its not like minato would see tobi disappear and suddenly drop his guard.
> 
> the only reason it probably even worked against konnan is that she never saw it due to the nature of her paper ocean attack.



Of course he chose not to. First of all he wasn't dead. Second, any injury prior to his death would remain. That includes the tag left by Minato. He would just get BAMF again. Sneak attack on the fastest guy in the manga? Tobi tried to be all silent and what not. Didn't work.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 26, 2012)

timmysblood said:


> Strategy doesn't mean strength/reflexes/speed/experience/skill ect; By your logic *Lee is as strong as Gai *since they use the same strategy in their fights.
> 
> To assume that Tobi now is not stronger in some way, in at least experience/skill is ridiculous. Not to mention the fight isn't even close to over, it won't surprise me when Naruto defeats Tobi and is declared stronger then Minato.
> 
> ...



I was about to say wtf when I saw the bold loll but then I read the rest of your post haha just had to say this


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## Turrin (Jul 26, 2012)

To defeat Minato you actually have to land a blow on him, which is the problem. In this chapter Tobi is evading being hit by the combo attacks of Killer B, Kakashi,, Gai, and RM Naruto, which is some pretty impressive stuff. Minato beat out Tobi proving he is more skilled with his S/t Jutsu and thus faster than Tobi, so he's hype by this chapter because it makes him look even more untouchable than before. 

Most likely this current fight is going to show us roughly what it takes to land a blow on Minato via Tobi and thus make or break Minato's hype, considering Tobi is only a split second slower than Minato. We'll see what it takes to land an effective blow on Tobi or force him to use another jutsu besides S/t to defend and know that it won't take much more to land a blow on Minato. So far it's been shown it takes a-lot to just land a scratch on Tobi's mask, but it's not so much that it makes me think Tobi with just S/T jutsu or Minato are insanely untouchable. However if team naruto ups their game next chapter with  Naruto using SM KB, Gai using Gates, &/or B joining the frey with V2 and still can't land a hit on him due to just his S/T jutsu, well than it's at that point when Tobi and Minato are going to start to seem like they are really Fing untouchable and people are going to have to reevaluate how they see these shinobi in terms of strength. But ether way we should get a general answer on just how hax'd Tobi's with S/T jutsu and Minato with FTG really are from this battle.

The other issue with Minato's strength is how to actually counter ethereal invisible Shiki Fuujin and I guess we'll have to hope Kishi answer that some time in the future.


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## Zenith (Jul 26, 2012)

another thing I'd like to add that to beat Tobi you'de basically need a fitting counter like the nano bugs or Hiraishin,or if you don't have those,the task becomes harder and you'll need a moving speed so fast that the guy can't fucking see you anymore


candidates for this are Ei and Naruto's biju dama deflecting sunshin


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## Khazzar (Jul 27, 2012)

Just realise Tobi did not have complete knowledge and with full knowledge he would most likely curbstomp Minato,which Minato himself preety much comfirmed. He knew Tobi is force to be reckoned with.

Fans will be fans.

Tobi is by far the strongest ( safe Edo Madara maybe,Tobi still has the Juubi as his bitch ) and will be the final villain.


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## Sniffers (Jul 27, 2012)

People need to realise that match ups are incredibly important. Minato did better against Tobi up to now simply because his style basically revolves around counter attacking which is the first tactic people try against Tobi as well as that his greatest powers aren't outright useless against Tobi.

Let's face it. The chapter begins with Naruto being told to not use big attacks, i.e. don't nuke the place because he'll phase through. It all means Naruto has to open up for Tobi to attack him and then counter attack while he's solid. This means that Naruto's and B's greatest strength, BM, is kind of useless. Then we have Kakashi whose greatest weapon is Kamui, but it somehow is completely ineffective against both Tobi and Gedo. So the current team is having such a hard time since their greatest strengths are undermined. As Minato said, you need a very specific set of abilities to fight Tobi. Minato had them, but Kakashi and co will find a (less obvious) combination that works in the end as well.

Any ideas what strategy Kakashi will come up with?
I don't see why Kakashi has to Kamui Gedo.. why not let B just nuke that shit? Ahh plot.


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## tnorbo (Jul 27, 2012)

Khazzar said:


> Just realise Tobi did not have complete knowledge and with full knowledge he would most likely curbstomp Minato,which Minato himself preety much comfirmed. He knew Tobi is force to be reckoned with.


really? your really using the lack of knowledge as hype for tobi minato went into that fight completely blind, and still kicked his ass. the comparison is laughable.


Khazzar said:


> Fans will be fans.
> 
> Tobi is by far the strongest ( safe Edo Madara maybe,Tobi still has the Juubi as his bitch ) and will be the final villain.



tobi will be lucky if he out lives this fight.


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## Rain (Jul 27, 2012)

While Minato did won CQC fight, people don't seem to understand that in the end he did lost that battle. Tobi survived, he had to sacrifice himself to beat Kurama.

Winner is the one who survives.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 27, 2012)

*Yes, Naruto still has ways to go to finally surpass his father 


But he will eventually!You better beleive it!*


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## ZE (Jul 27, 2012)

Falkirion said:


> While Minato did won CQC fight, people don't seem to understand that in the end he did lost that battle. Tobi survived, he had to sacrifice himself to beat Kurama.
> 
> Winner is the one who survives.



Kurama was no longer Tobi's pet when Minato willingly chose to sacrifice himself for the good of the village. Newsflash: if Minato wanted, the Kyuubi would never have touched him.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 27, 2012)

ZE said:


> Kurama was no longer Tobi's pet when Minato willingly chose to sacrifice himself for the good of the village. Newsflash: if Minato wanted, the Kyuubi would never have touched him.



*Yeah, this. i just like to add something.


"he had to sacrifice himself to beat Kurama."


How about NO?He didn't need to lose his life to defeat the Kyuubi.Kushina (who was dying anyway) offered Minato to take Kurama with her.

here

Minato HAD a choice but he didn't want the village to lose the Kyuubi.*


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 27, 2012)

畜生道 said:


> *Yeah, this. i just like to add something.
> 
> 
> "he had to sacrifice himself to beat Kurama."
> ...



Your wrong, Minato said if Kushina takes down Kurama he will come back again. Minato had no option but to seal him. Kurama cannot be killed or put down permanently, he has to be sealed.


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## principito (Jul 27, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> People need to realise that match ups are incredibly important. Minato did better against Tobi up to now simply because his style basically revolves around counter attacking which is the first tactic people try against Tobi as well as that his greatest powers aren't outright useless against Tobi.
> 
> Let's face it. The chapter begins with Naruto being told to not use big attacks, i.e. don't nuke the place because he'll phase through. It all means Naruto has to open up for Tobi to attack him and then counter attack while he's solid. This means that Naruto's and B's greatest strength, BM, is kind of useless. Then we have Kakashi whose greatest weapon is Kamui, but it somehow is completely ineffective against both Tobi and Gedo. So the current team is having such a hard time since their greatest strengths are undermined. As Minato said, you need a very specific set of abilities to fight Tobi. Minato had them, but Kakashi and co will find a (less obvious) combination that works in the end as well.
> 
> ...



While I believe that matchups are a gread deal in this manga.... the thing about Minato's set of skills is that he most likely comes on top in most match-ups.

I cant come up with a character that would have a specific set of skills that would take minato easy..... on the other hand at least on paper nobody represents a real thread to Minato.... and only the highest caliber ninjas could put a fight against him



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Your wrong, Minato said if Kushina takes down Kurama he will come back again. Minato had no option but to seal him. Kurama cannot be killed or put down permanently, he has to be sealed.



Why always so much hate against Minato?


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 27, 2012)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Your wrong, Minato said if Kushina takes down Kurama he will come back again. Minato had no option but to seal him. Kurama cannot be killed or put down permanently, he has to be sealed.



*Yes, Kurama would have returned eventually, and?That doesn't change the fact that it would've been defeated that day and died with Kushina if Minato allowed it.

Next time Minato and the village would have been better prepared for Kuramas attack and sealing it (without the Hokage sacrificing himself as that wasn't needed before when then Kurama was sealed in Hashirama's wife and then Kushina and it wasn't needed with Hachibi eaither)but Minato didn't want Konoha losing Kyuubi because of the power balance between the villages.*


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## Rain (Jul 27, 2012)

ZE said:


> Kurama was no longer Tobi's pet when Minato willingly chose to sacrifice himself for the good of the village. Newsflash: if Minato wanted, the Kyuubi would never have touched him.



So what? He summoned him, that is all that matters.
And if Tobi summoned Kurama to his place, Minato wouldn't stand a chance because wouldn't be able to do Shiki Fujin.
Tobi's only mistake was that he underestimated 4th Hokage and didn't go on him with full power.


And no, he didn't really had choice.
He was Hokage.
He chose to be Hokage.
As a Hokage it was his duty to protect the village, even if it will cost him his life.
Any Hokage would do the same in his situation. 
Except Hashirama. He would've soloed Kurama


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## ZE (Jul 27, 2012)

Falkirion said:


> So what? He summoned him, that is all that matters.


Kabuto also summoned Itachi and edo Madara. So technically, Kabuto was defeated by himself, not edo Itachi... at least according to you.

pretty shitty argument you have here. 



> And if Tobi summoned Kurama to his place, Minato wouldn't stand a chance because wouldn't be able to do Shiki Fujin.


Minato danced around the Kyuubi saving his wife in the process without the beast ever touching him. Manga cannon: the only way the Kyuubi can touch Minato is if Minato allows it to happen. I mean, Minato even made Kyuubi's strongest attack useless with a simple spacetime barrier. 



> Tobi's only mistake was that he underestimated 4th Hokage and didn't go on him with full power.


The Tobi Minato fought was the strongest and most dangerous Tobi of them all. He even sneaked on Minato when Minato was distracted... and yet, he still failed due to Minato's quick reactions. You can come up with all the excuses you want, notthing will change what happened in the manga. 



> And no, he didn't really had choice.
> He was Hokage.
> He chose to be Hokage.


His wife gave him another choice. But he refused. 



> Except Hashirama. He would've soloed Kurama


You mean the strongest character in the manga bar Rikudo? We already know he would stomp the Kyuubi, EMS Madara, and whoever he faces... no need to bring such a legend into this.


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## Sniffers (Jul 27, 2012)

principito said:


> While I believe that matchups are a gread deal in this manga.... the thing about Minato's set of skills is that he most likely comes on top in most match-ups.


Oh, definately agreed on that one. That's why I rate Minato so very high. However, the same can be said about Tobi's skill set.. even more so even.. until he meets Minato. That's kind of the point I was trying to make.



principito said:


> I cant come up with a character that would have a specific set of skills that would take minato easy..... on the other hand at least on paper nobody represents a real thread to Minato.... and only the highest caliber ninjas could put a fight against him.


Minato will never be easy to beat. On paper the current Tobi should be nigh-impossible to beat, but plot will be plot and so in the end it doesn't really matter.


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## Garfield (Jul 27, 2012)

Whatever people keep saying, what they don't understand is that as long as these four combined don't make tobi bleed, they won't match up to Minato according to pure basic logic because so far he hasn't used a technique in this skirmish that he didn't already have then. Even though he has Rinnegan now.


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## principito (Jul 27, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> Oh, definately agreed on that one. That's why I rate Minato so very high. However, the same can be said about Tobi's skill set.. even more so even.. until he meets Minato. That's kind of the point I was trying to make.
> 
> 
> Minato will never be easy to beat. On paper the current Tobi should be nigh-impossible to beat, *but plot will be plot and so in the end it doesn't really matter*.





adee said:


> Whatever people keep saying, what they don't understand is that as long as these four combined don't make tobi bleed, *they won't match up to Minato according to pure basic logic* because so far he hasn't used a technique in this skirmish that he didn't already have then. Even though he has Rinnegan now.



While there's some truth in these, my logics says:

- Minato's skill set us pure win and he damaged Tobi and pretty fast to. But the battle progress was: Minato tried, tobi dissappeared and Minato failed, Then Minato had to try again.... but this time faster.... and he attached a rasengan to Tobi's back

- this last chapter naruto tried.... Naruto failed.... I think Naruto will try again.... either faster or with a clone... and he'll draw some blood from Tobi. Then when this happens... Naruto will have finally surpassed Minato


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## Garfield (Jul 27, 2012)

Maybe, but that's why I said, "as long as". One can only hope that that happens.


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## Turrin (Jul 27, 2012)

principito said:


> While there's some truth in these, my logics says:
> 
> - Minato's skill set us pure win and he damaged Tobi and pretty fast to. But the battle progress was: Minato tried, tobi dissappeared and Minato failed, Then Minato had to try again.... but this time faster.... and he attached a rasengan to Tobi's back
> 
> - this last chapter naruto tried.... Naruto failed.... I think Naruto will try again.... either faster or with a clone... and he'll draw some blood from Tobi. Then when this happens... Naruto will have finally surpassed Minato



Why surpassed? Wouldn't he just equal Minato at that point or not even if he had Gai's, Kakashi's, and B's help to land that blow? 

I think what will most likely happen is B will join the fray in next weeks chapter, but they will still be unable to land a blow on Tobi. Than Naruto will enter BM a second time some how and he'll get past Tobi's S/T jutsu equaling Minato. Than Tobi brings out the big guns and BM Naruto uses Bijuu Dama or something to counter, breaks Tobi's mask, and TNJ's Tobi. Than Kakashi or Tobi will say Naruto is stronger than his father or has surpassed Minato.


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## SageEnergyMode (Jul 27, 2012)

Falkirion said:


> While Minato did won CQC fight, people don't seem to understand that in the end he did lost that battle. Tobi survived, he had to sacrifice himself to beat Kurama.
> 
> Winner is the one who survives.



In most instances, yes, but not in a unique battle situation such as that one. Tobi was defeated and outclassed by Minato come the end, and forced to retreat. He was also tagged with Mnato's Hiraishin. If Tobi had dared continue that fight, things would have become so much worse for him.


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## Saunion (Jul 27, 2012)

That whole spiel about Minato being superior to Naruto is nonsense. Put Minato in Naruto's shoes during that war: do you honestly think he could have reproduced Naruto's feats, let alone do better? Of course not.


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## PopoTime (Jul 27, 2012)

Saunion said:


> That whole spiel about Minato being superior to Naruto is nonsense. Put Minato in Naruto's shoes during that war: do you honestly think he could have reproduced Naruto's feats, let alone do better? Of course not.



Most Minato could do is solo the zetsu army and seal Madara with Shiki Fuin.

THat sounds impressive, until you realise Tobi is whackamoling the other shinobi with the Juubi.



Plus Naruto sort of Surpassed Minato in that he has the fastest non-Hiraishin speed in the manga.


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## JPongo (Jul 27, 2012)

Saunion said:


> That whole spiel about Minato being superior to Naruto is nonsense. Put Minato in Naruto's shoes during that war: do you honestly think he could have reproduced Naruto's feats, let alone do better? Of course not.



It would take Minato a bit more time coz u can't really compete with all those KCM bunshins all over the place.

But Minato will never be tripping over rocks and roots!


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## Arles Celes (Jul 27, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Why surpassed? Wouldn't he just equal Minato at that point or not even if he had Gai's, Kakashi's, and B's help to land that blow?
> 
> I think what will most likely happen is B will join the fray in next weeks chapter, but they will still be unable to land a blow on Tobi. Than Naruto will enter BM a second time some how and he'll get past Tobi's S/T jutsu equaling Minato. Than Tobi brings out the big guns and BM Naruto uses Bijuu Dama or something to counter, breaks Tobi's mask, and TNJ's Tobi. Than Kakashi or Tobi will say Naruto is stronger than his father or has surpassed Minato.



What Naruto needs is not incredible speed but a jutsu/ability that will be able to catch Tobi off guard. Alternatively he has to simply outsmart Tobi.

Minato was able to land a blow on Tobi because Tobi didn't know about Hirashin level 2 and so was caught off guard. It was a perfect jutsu to launch a surprise attack. A straight blitz would be IMO pointless besides RM NAruto is already as fast as they go. And the hero just stomping the main villain through a blitz would be cheap and boring. This is more a battle of intelligence, teamwork , and precision.


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## Saunion (Jul 27, 2012)

JPongo said:


> It would take Minato a bit more time coz u can't really compete with all those KCM bunshins all over the place.



No, he can't do what Naruto did. He can't fight on all battlefields at once, he doesn't have the chakra capability for that. He can't counter the white zetsu infiltration plot because he doesn't have Naruto's negative emotion sensing. He can't do shit to the 3rd Raikage as Hiraishin isn't a form of precog like Kawazu Kumite. And he sure as fuck can't manhandle 5 bijuu at the same time. 



> But Minato will never be tripping over rocks and roots!



 That's all it boils down to. You guys are basically part 1 Sasuke fangirls, only caring about shallow "coolness". Good for you.


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## Harbour (Jul 27, 2012)

Saunion said:


> That whole spiel about Minato being superior to Naruto is nonsense. Put Minato in Naruto's shoes during that war: do you honestly think he could have reproduced Naruto's feats, let alone do better? Of course not.


Simly give to the all armies few kunai. After fuck all Tensei low and average level solo, manage to use the sealing scrolls on high speed. After just teleport few Kage-levels like Onoki and Gaara to Tensei of high level, win and teleport to the next opponent. Or just use Barrier of Violet Flames(which used on Dan), put the seal inside and teleport all strong enemies in it, after fuck all Zetsu and then will prepare for sealing other.
Really, with Hiraishin everywhere Minato could soloes this war or be the main factor to win. Mobility and opportunity of this jutsu can be the main strength in war.


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## Saunion (Jul 27, 2012)

Harbour said:


> Simly give to the all armies few kunai. After fuck all Tensei low and average level solo, manage to use the sealing scrolls on high speed. After just teleport few Kage-levels like Onoki and Gaara to Tensei of high level, win and teleport to the next opponent. Or just use Barrier of Violet Flames(which used on Dan), put the seal inside and teleport all strong enemies in it, after fuck all Zetsu and then will prepare for sealing other.
> Really, with Hiraishin everywhere Minato could soloes this war or be the main factor to win. Mobility and opportunity of this jutsu can be the main strength in war.



... I'm sure you tried to say something here, but unfortunately I only understand english.


----------



## lathia (Jul 27, 2012)

Saunion said:


> ... I'm sure you tried to say something here, but unfortunately I only understand english.



Let me summarize. Hiraishin > War

lol.


----------



## JPongo (Jul 27, 2012)

Saunion said:


> *No, he can't do what Naruto did. *
> 
> That's all it boils down to. You guys are basically part 1 Sasuke fangirls, only caring about shallow "coolness". Good for you.



Neither can Naruto land a hit on Tobi, what's ur point?

And pwning Tobi is always cool coz it only happened once, courtesy of the BAMFlash!!


----------



## Turrin (Jul 27, 2012)

Arles Celes said:


> What Naruto needs is not incredible speed but a jutsu/ability that will be able to catch Tobi off guard. Alternatively he has to simply outsmart Tobi.


Of course there are other means to defeat Tobi than just speed, however i'm looking at the implications of Kishi's manga. The Naruto who was compare to Minato in this fight was BM Naruto, it only than seems fitting that Naruto would over come Tobi's S/T Jutsu with BM's speed like his father did.



> Minato was able to land a blow on Tobi because Tobi didn't know about Hirashin level 2 and so was caught off guard.


Minato landed a blow on Tobi because he was better at using his S/T jutsu making him a split second faster than Tobi winning him the fight. This is what's stated in the manga cannon.



> A straight blitz would be IMO pointless besides RM NAruto is already as fast as they go.


RM Naruto can't control his top speed Shunshin. BM Naruto can. Precision with with his speed is key to him defeating Tobi. 



> And the hero just stomping the main villain through a blitz would be cheap and boring. This is more a battle of intelligence, teamwork , and precision.


I think your a bit confused. I never said Naruto would beat Tobi with a blitz. I said that it seems likely that BM Naruto will be the one to overcome Tobi's S/T Jutsu. BM Naruto might not be quite as fast as Minato and may require a clone feint or some teamwork to overcome the S/T Jutsu combined with his speed. However even if he did overcome the S/T jutsu with his pure speed in BM, that doesn't mean he's defeat Tobi or are you forgetting about Tobi's other abilities like Izanagi?


----------



## Saunion (Jul 27, 2012)

JPongo said:


> Neither can Naruto land a hit on Tobi, what's ur point?



He'll eventually do it. And my point is that following the stupid reasoning in that thread, Minato isn't superior to Naruto because he couldn't do what his son did in this war. Which is the logic used to claim Minato is superior to Naruto, because he could hit Tobi. Get it?


----------



## Turrin (Jul 27, 2012)

Saunion said:


> He'll eventually do it. And my point is that following the stupid reasoning in that thread, Minato isn't superior to Naruto because he couldn't do what his son did in this war. Which is the logic used to claim Minato is superior to Naruto, because he could hit Tobi. Get it?


Pretty sure Minato could indeed do what his son did in the war and in some instance he'd probably outperform his son. The only thing that is questionable is Naruto defeating the 5 Bijuu, but that required BM and i'm pretty sure no one is talking about BM Naruto.

With that said I'm not agreeing with the opening that Minato > RM Naruto, Gai, Kakashi, and B, just saying I believe Minato could accomplish all the same shit Naruto has in this war bar possibly BM feats.


----------



## Saunion (Jul 27, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Pretty sure Minato could indeed do what his son did in the war and in some instance he'd probably outperform his son. The only thing that is questionable is Naruto defeating the 5 Bijuu, but that required BM and i'm pretty sure no one is talking about BM Naruto.
> 
> With that said I'm not agreeing with the opening that Minato > RM Naruto, Gai, Kakashi, and B, just saying I believe Minato could accomplish all the same shit Naruto has in this war bar BM possibly feats.



Yeah but you also thought edo Itachi would get trolled so who cares.


----------



## Cyclonic (Jul 27, 2012)

I just want to say with the upt most seriousness......  that you can all suck my balls dry to the point of exhaustion  for even entertaining this idea seriously.

clearly minatos fighting style makes him far better to counter tobis ability than anyone else in the manga. power level has nothing to do with it.


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## Arles Celes (Jul 27, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Of course there are other means to defeat Tobi than just speed, however i'm looking at the implications of Kishi's manga. The Naruto who was compare to Minato in this fight was BM Naruto, it only than seems fitting that Naruto would over come Tobi's S/T Jutsu with BM's speed like his father did.
> 
> 
> Minato landed a blow on Tobi because he was better at using his S/T jutsu making him a split second faster than Tobi winning him the fight. This is what's stated in the manga cannon.
> ...



BM Naruto's feat of repelling 2 bijuudama's through sheer power is something that Minato cant do(he can teleport them though). Kakashi believed BM Naruto to be Minato based on how similar they looked like(with Naruto having a similar cape).

Tobi's suction may be a spit second slower than Minato's but it is more advanced(according to Kakashi and Minato himself) and if Tobi knew how it worked he could have simply feigned that attack and stayed intangible letting Minato's rasengan slip past him which would leave an opening that Tobi could exploit. Seriously I believe that Hiraishin and Tobi's s/t are a bit like comparing apples to oranges though. If both Tobi and Minato know all about their abilities they are quite well matched. Unfortunately for Tobi, Minato figured him out first while Tobi learned Hirashin V2 the hard way.

RM Naruto can control his speed based on his fight with the Raikage. Even at the start of the fight he was able to match the Raikage according to Tsunade. At the end he surpassed the Raikage and never again had trouble controlling his speed like against Kisame. I'm not sure if BM Naruto is all that much better in that department considering that he was only against the bijuus that while incredible powerful are not established as speedsters.

BM Naruto not as fast as Minato? Well, obviously no one can match INSTANT TELEPORTATION. Even if Naruto was x1000 faster in shushin he wont be faster than that. On the other hand that is strange as RM Naruto's shushin was compared to Minato's Hiraishin when he dodged Raikage's fastest attack.


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## Turrin (Jul 27, 2012)

Saunion said:


> Yeah but you also thought edo Itachi would get trolled so who cares.


Edo Itachi did get trolled it was just by himself. Stating himself that he was a failure.


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## JPongo (Jul 27, 2012)

Saunion said:


> *He'll eventually do it*. And my point is that following the stupid reasoning in that thread, Minato isn't superior to Naruto because he couldn't do what his son did in this war. Which is the logic used to claim Minato is superior to Naruto, because he could hit Tobi. Get it?



So now we're counting what will happen and not what did?

Following your logic, Part 1 Naruto was stronger than all the current kages coz he will *EVENTUALLY* perform more hax feats.

Don't try so hard to make it look like Naruto > Minato (if u are) is such an incontrovertible truth.  The opposite may still be true as well.

Get it?


----------



## Turrin (Jul 27, 2012)

Arles Celes said:


> BM Naruto's feat of repelling 2 bijuudama's through sheer power is something that Minato cant do(he can teleport them though).


So first you say he can't do it and than admit that he can 



> Kakashi believed BM Naruto to be Minato based on how similar they looked like(with Naruto having a similar cape).


He believe BM Naruto to be Minato based on appearance, speed, and the general feeling Naruto gave off. This clearly draws a parallel between BM Naruto and Minato, which as I said before would make it fitting if BM Naruto was the one to overcome Tobi's S/T jutsu.



> Tobi's suction may be a spit second slower than Minato's but it is more advanced(according to Kakashi and Minato himself) and if Tobi knew how it worked he could have simply feigned that attack and stayed intangible letting Minato's rasengan slip past him which would leave an opening that Tobi could exploit.


And because Minato is faster than Tobi he'd react to it and teleport away. The Manga clearly states that the battle was decided by who was a split second faster, to say it was something else is a denial of cannon.



> RM Naruto can control his speed based on his fight with the Raikage.


Just moving out of the way of an attack does not show any type of precision with his speed.



> Even at the start of the fight he was able to match the Raikage according to Tsunade. At the end he surpassed the Raikage and never again had trouble controlling his speed like against Kisame.


Link removed



> I'm not sure if BM Naruto is all that much better in that department considering that he was only against the bijuus that while incredible powerful are not established as speedsters.


He react at the last second to Bijuu Damas in enough time to put himself between them and Kakashi/Gai. BM Naruto adds precision since he is able to control the speed with his greater strength.



> BM Naruto not as fast as Minato? Well, obviously no one can match INSTANT TELEPORTATION. Even if Naruto was x1000 faster in shushin he wont be faster than that. On the other hand that is strange as RM Naruto's shushin was compared to Minato's Hiraishin when he dodged Raikage's fastest attack.


I said that it was a possibility. BM Naruto and RM Naruto have the same speed with Shunshin, difference is BM Naruto seems able to control the speed better just like he can control Bijuu dama better. BM Naruto is around Minato's level in speed whether equal, slightly greater, or slightly inferior we'll have to wait and see.


----------



## Saunion (Jul 27, 2012)

JPongo said:


> So now we're counting what will happen and not what did?
> 
> Following your logic, Part 1 Naruto was stronger than all the current kages coz he will *EVENTUALLY* perform more hax feats.
> 
> ...



He'll hit Tobi in the upcoming chapters, don't be ridiculous. I like how you conveniently ignored the rest of my argument too, because you have nothing to counter it. I'll treat that as a concession.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jul 27, 2012)

Turrin said:


> So first you say he can't do it and than admit that he can
> 
> 
> He believe BM Naruto to be Minato based on appearance, speed, and the general feeling Naruto gave off. This clearly draws a parallel between BM Naruto and Minato, which as I said before would make it fitting if BM Naruto was the one to overcome Tobi's S/T jutsu.
> ...



I said that the feat was different since BM Naruto's was a combination of sheer power and speed while Minato's of his mastery of s/t.

While a character attacks he/she leaves an oppening that even a slower character should exploit. If Tobi knew about Hirashin V2 he could have fooled Minato and caugh him off guard too. That said I'm not arguing that Tobi is faster or as fast just that he has the ability to match Minato's Hiraishin. And even if Tobi was unable to land a hit on Minato so wouldn't the latter land a hit on the former if Tobi focused on defense. Basically neither would be able to overcome to defenses of the other. It all came(yes) to speed but even more than that to the factor of surpise.

Naruto only moved away since he didn't want to fight the Raikage. If he can react to his movements and dodge his attacks it wouldn't be strange if he could be just as formidable in attack.

In that page the RM clone states that he overexerted himself. So it was more a question of being tired than having bad control at speed normally. The clones obviously get tired faster than the real Naruto.

BM Naruto's speed is quite impressive but I'm not sure if it is better than RM Naruto's when the latter is not tired.

I agree on your last point. I guess we will have to see how the fight develps.


----------



## JPongo (Jul 27, 2012)

Saunion said:


> He'll hit Tobi in the upcoming chapters, don't be ridiculous. I like how you conveniently ignored the rest of my argument too, because you have nothing to counter it. *I'll treat that as a concession*.



And here I am thinking you could be a decent debater, lol.

The gist of ur argument kinda sounds like we can't ever compare characters unless they did the exact same thing.  It's not happening.

Don't give up so fast coz u made an argument you can't back out of.

UFN, Minato > Naruto (and company).


----------



## SageEnergyMode (Jul 27, 2012)

Saunion said:


> No, he can't do what Naruto did. He can't fight on all battlefields at once, he doesn't have the chakra capability for that. He can't counter the white zetsu infiltration plot because he doesn't have Naruto's negative emotion sensing. He can't do shit to the 3rd Raikage as Hiraishin isn't a form of precog like Kawazu Kumite. And he sure as fuck can't manhandle 5 bijuu at the same time.
> 
> 
> 
> That's all it boils down to. You guys are basically part 1 Sasuke fangirls, only caring about shallow "coolness". Good for you.



I was agreeing with you up until the Third Raikage statement. That isn't even slightly true. Minato's perceptive abilities and reflexes are utterly insane. He would most certainly be able to dodge and counter the Third Raikage using his known abilities and Hiraishin in creative ways. Don't forget he also has Hiraishin level 2.

He has the reflexes and perceptive abilities to do just that. How else do you suppose he had the speed and reflexes necessary to do what he did against the Fourth Raikage, who is possibly even faster than his father? Minato's perceptive abilities are already unbelievable without needing Sage Mode. How many times must he prove this? If anything, it seems to me as if Naruto's reflexes and perceptive prowess is more brought to the level of where his father's own abilities are once he enters Sage Mode.


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## Turrin (Jul 27, 2012)

Arles Celes said:


> I said that the feat was different since BM Naruto's was a combination of sheer power and speed while Minato's of his mastery of s/t.


I don't think it really matters. Both have the speed and ability to deflect those Bijuu Dama.



> While a character attacks he/she leaves an oppening that even a slower character should exploit. If Tobi knew about Hirashin V2 he could have fooled Minato and caugh him off guard too. That said I'm not arguing that Tobi is faster or as fast just that he has the ability to match Minato's Hiraishin. And even if Tobi was unable to land a hit on Minato so wouldn't the latter land a hit on the former if Tobi focused on defense. Basically neither would be able to overcome to defenses of the other. It all came(yes) to speed but even more than that to the factor of surpise.


The manga says it comes down to who strikes a split second faster. But your telling me it primarily depended on surprise. No this is just wrong, it came down to speed. Even at the end of the chapter the side texts says,_ "the fourth hokage wins the battle of speed"_. 



> Naruto only moved away since he didn't want to fight the Raikage. If he can react to his movements and dodge his attacks it wouldn't be strange if he could be just as formidable in attack.


If you just have to evade an incoming attack all you have to do is use you top speed to get the hell out of dodge. This is a-lot different than having to use your speed to end up in a specific position to attack the enemy at a certain timing.

For example when he attacks Kisame he puts too much force behind his shunshin unable to stop himself and slams into the wall. His feat against A does not prove he had overcome this problem in RM, since there was no precision required. 



> In that page the RM clone states that he overexerted himself. So it was more a question of being tired than having bad control at speed normally. The clones obviously get tired faster than the real Naruto


Overexerted himself as in he put too much into his Shunshin w/o being able to handle the speed.



> BM Naruto's speed is quite impressive but I'm not sure if it is better than RM Naruto's when the latter is not tired.


It's not better in terms of speed, but it's better in terms of precision and consistency.


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## shintebukuro (Jul 28, 2012)

SageEnergyMode said:
			
		

> If anything, it seems to me as if Naruto's reflexes and perceptive prowess is more brought to the level of where his father's own abilities are once he enters Sage Mode.



It's stated flat-out in the manga that Minato's reflexes are only on par with base Raikage's. We've had translators look and go over this a million times. There's no arguing it.

Minato does not have super fast reflexes; *Hiraishin can just be activated with a thought*, which makes him able to react to things extremely fast. It's similar to how Sasuke could see Rock Lee, but was unable to do anything about it because his reflexes weren't fast enough; well, Minato is not bound by said reflexes. 

Sasuke could see Lee perfectly fine, but his brain could not send the signal to his body to move fast enough to dodge/block Lee's attack. Minato does not need to send any signals to his body to move; the nano second his brain wants to move, he teleports.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 28, 2012)

Minato caught tobi off guard with a surpise attack Nothing more.In a real fight with intell FTG would not work completely.

Minato himself said that Tobi is better then him.

They only people who beileve otherwise are Minato-tards.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 28, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> It's stated flat-out in the manga that Minato's reflexes are only on par with base Raikage's. We've had translators look and go over this a million times. There's no arguing it.
> 
> Minato does not have super fast reflexes; *Hiraishin can just be activated with a thought*, which makes him able to react to things extremely fast. It's similar to how Sasuke could see Rock Lee, but was unable to do anything about it because his reflexes weren't fast enough; well, Minato is not bound by said reflexes.
> 
> Sasuke could see Lee perfectly fine, but his brain could not send the signal to his body to move fast enough to dodge/block Lee's attack. Minato does not need to send any signals to his body to move; the nano second his brain wants to move, he teleports.




Actually it is still in question whether it was base Raikage or the V1 Raikage.
Because C said Raikage's reflexes were comparable to Minato's but the raiton shroud could further increase  them.
I think he was referring to A's ability of amping his shroud to the next level, also known as V2.

V2 Raikage > Minato = V1 Raikage > Base Raikage

Thats how I see it.


And Minato needs to have excellent reflexes, because he needs to keep up with his own teleportation. I mean imagine your self teleporting, you have to adapt to your new location and position immediately to be able to act on it.


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## Gilgamesh (Jul 28, 2012)

Current Tobi would wreck Minato


----------



## Namikaze Minato (Jul 28, 2012)

Gilgamesh said:


> Current Tobi would wreck Minato



because he have an extra arm right?


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## BrokenBonds (Jul 28, 2012)

The Masked Man is a lot more determined this time around.

Really the only reason Minato Namikaze got the easy win was because the Masked Man was short on time and was impatient / a lot more aggressive. In this fight, Tobi isn't pressed for time and is more cautious when he leaves his "ghost" mode.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 28, 2012)

BrokenBonds said:


> The Masked Man is a lot more determined this time around.
> 
> Really the only reason Minato Namikaze got the easy win was because the Masked Man was short on time and was impatient / a lot more aggressive. In this fight, Tobi isn't pressed for time and is more cautious when he leaves his "ghost" mode.



Lolno , in this fight Tobi also is not only fighting them , but he's protecting the Mazou.

so the excuse you mentioned isn't valid.


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## Seraphiel (Jul 28, 2012)

Namikaze Minato said:


> because he have an extra arm right?



Because after V2 combo failed to kill Tobi, Minato had nothing to fight Tobi with. Thus his statement that a person would need special power to beat him


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## BrokenBonds (Jul 28, 2012)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Lolno , in this fight Tobi also is not only fighting them , but he's protecting the Mazou.
> 
> so the excuse you mentioned isn't valid.


He only really needed to defend the Gedo Mazo once... everyone is pretty focused on taking out Tobi.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 28, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> Because after V2 combo failed to kill Tobi, Minato had nothing to fight Tobi with. Thus his statement that a person would need special power to beat him


Hakke Seal say hello to you.


BrokenBonds said:


> He only really needed to defend the Gedo Mazo once... everyone is pretty focused on taking out Tobi.



o rly , so it's established that even while defending Mazou the team couldnt hurt him.

thanks for proving my point.


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## Oldy (Jul 28, 2012)

Turrin said:


> The manga says it comes down to who strikes a split second faster. But your telling me it primarily depended on surprise. No this is just wrong, it came down to speed. Even at the end of the chapter the side texts says,_ "the fourth hokage wins the battle of speed"_.


The side texts are added by editors to hype the action, aren't present in the released manga and are generally fairly stupid. If it came down only to who was a split second faster then Tobi was going to win but sheer speed wasn't the winning factor. Minato didn't win because he was a tiny bit faster, he won because he teleported to a place Tobi didn't expect.
Tobi had the better tool but Minato had a better brain.


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## Kid (Jul 28, 2012)

no wait...

Minato > Edo Madara + Gokage


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## JPongo (Jul 28, 2012)

Oldy said:


> The side texts are added by editors to hype the action, aren't present in the released manga and are generally fairly stupid. If it came down only to who was a split second faster then Tobi was going to win but sheer speed wasn't the winning factor. Minato didn't win because he was a tiny bit faster, he won because he teleported to a place Tobi didn't expect.
> Tobi had the better tool but Minato had a better brain.



Tobi would win in a split second battle?

Is that manga fact when the manga showed otherwise?

Holy literacy!

Tobi was at the mercy of Minato since he could appear anywhere around the tagged kunai.

Tobi not expecting it is what's called getting Pwned.


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## SageEnergyMode (Jul 28, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> Because after V2 combo failed to kill Tobi, Minato had nothing to fight Tobi with. Thus his statement that a person would need special power to beat him



Tobi was also tagged with a Hiraishin marker. Don't forget that one. Whatever happened to Tobi once Hiraishin version 2 hit him, was about to become a whole lot worse if Tobi had decided to stay and fight.

Also, Minato has already proven that his reflexes and speed are significantly superior to those of the Fourth Raikage's, so what one of the Raikage's subordinates says on the matter means even less. Also, comparable can mean a lot of things, but there's no explicit guarantee that it means they were complete equals in that area of reflexes/perceptive ability. The Fourth Raikage couldn't even tell that Minato had tagged one of Bee's tentacles with his Hiraishin mark.

Everyone is referring to the kunais that Minato used. *Please do not forget that Tobi himself was physically tagged with Minato's Hiraishin marker. That fight was as good as over if Tobi stayed, which is especially why he chose to retreat. It wasn't just on some arm that he could rip off. It was on his back.*


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 28, 2012)

Wait people are trying to say Raikage's speed and  reflexes > Minato's?

Minato literally Hirashin'd to a tree, Hirashin'd back to the Raikage, grabbed the Kunai, put the kunai in a slashing position, slashed, and then tagged KB before the Raikage could move.

Please stop comparing the creator of the new Rikudou Sennin to the Raikage.


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## shintebukuro (Jul 28, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Actually it is still in question whether it was base Raikage or the V1 Raikage.
> Because C said Raikage's reflexes were comparable to Minato's but the raiton shroud could further increase  them.
> I think he was referring to A's ability of amping his shroud to the next level, also known as V2.
> 
> ...



Gottheim's trans:

"雷影様の体内の神経伝達…反射のスピードは黄色い閃光に劣らない
Raikage-sama's nerve impulse transmission and reflexes fall nothing short of those of the Yellow Flash in speed.

こいつらよくついてきてるほうだ　
These guys are doing a pretty good job of keeping up.

しかし反射を活性化するための雷遁チャクラをまとった以上　写輪眼でも追いつけない
But once he puts on his reflex-enhancing Raiton chakra [shroud] even the Sharingan can't follow.[tn: C doesn't say "shroud", it's a personal addition.]

それにまだ…
And that's not the end of it..." 


C seems to say that Raikage is equal before he "puts on" his Raiton Shroud. So, Raikage doesn't surpass Minato by amping up his shroud, but simply by putting it on period.

He also says "And that's not the end of it..." which I believe is alluding to R2.




> And Minato needs to have excellent reflexes, because he needs to keep up with his own teleportation. I mean imagine your self teleporting, you have to adapt to your new location and position immediately to be able to act on it.



That's hard to really quantify in comparison to others. I'm also not too sure the author has really been worried about that.



			
				Elite Uchiha said:
			
		

> Wait people are trying to say Raikage's speed and reflexes > Minato's?



Raikage's reflexes are better. That's a stated fact.

His speed is also better, discounting Hiraishin.



> Minato literally Hirashin'd to a tree, Hirashin'd back to the Raikage, grabbed the Kunai, put the kunai in a slashing position, slashed, and then tagged KB before the Raikage could move.



That's teleportation. 

By the time Raikage noticed Minato landing on the tree above him, Minato already teleported stepping right ontop of his back, back to the kunai that was there. He also did not "put the kunai in a slashing position."

Raikage couldn't really do anything because he had momentum and would have had to stop himself, yet Minato was not bound by that.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 28, 2012)

It was also a stated fact that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage of all time . Please dont believe Shi who hasnt never even witnessed Minato.

And if Raikage's reflexes were so fast then he would of been able to react against Minato and even notice the tag on KB


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## Final Jutsu (Jul 28, 2012)

DB4 is gonna cause such a  huge shitstorm lol


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 28, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> It was also a stated fact that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage of all time . Please dont believe Shi who hasnt never even witnessed Minato.
> 
> And if Raikage's reflexes were so fast then he would of been able to react against Minato and even notice the tag on KB



What Raikage could do against Hiraishin has nothing to do with reflexes. He was busy following through with the massive haymaker punch. He couldn't stop on a dime.

Your interpretation on reflexes is simply wrong. And why do you even care? It doesn't downplay Minato's level of strength or anything.

C's statement is not disproven. The author inserted that there for a reason. If it was wrong, why even bring it up? Why bring the fourth Hokage in there if he didn't apply? And if he's not as good, why not just say "The only person with better reflxes was the 4th Hokage?"


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## JPongo (Jul 28, 2012)

^^The last DB should be more authoritative and hopefully will have Minato's numbers.


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## JPongo (Jul 28, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> What Raikage could do against Hiraishin has nothing to do with reflexes. He was busy following through with the massive haymaker he threw. He couldn't stop on a dime.
> 
> C's statement is not disproven. The author inserted that there for a reason. If it was wrong, why even bring it up? Why bring the fourth Hokage in there if he didn't apply?
> 
> Your interpretation on reflexes is simply wrong. And why do you even care? It doesn't downplay Minato's level of strength or anything.



First, Raikage's linear attack is flawed while Hiraishin is not (except for the need of a tag).

Second, C's statement was possibly based on info gathered but should not conclusively have every precise detail of what Minato had to offer.  In other words, he wasn't entirely accurate and Raikage and Bee paid the price.

What you call a thought process I may call reflex.


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## shintebukuro (Jul 28, 2012)

JPongo said:


> First, Raikage's linear attack is flawed while Hiraishin is not (except for the need of a tag).



I agree. 



> Second, C's statement was possibly based on info gathered but should not conclusively have every precise detail of what Minato had to offer.  In other words, he wasn't entirely accurate and Raikage and Bee paid the price.



I don't think there's a logical process through which C could really understand the exact level of Minato's reflexes.

It's really just the author telling us what the deal is.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 28, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> What Raikage could do against Hiraishin has nothing to do with reflexes. He was busy following through with the massive haymaker punch. He couldn't stop on a dime.
> 
> Your interpretation on reflexes is simply wrong. And why do you even care? It doesn't downplay Minato's level of strength or anything.
> 
> C's statement is not disproven. The author inserted that there for a reason. If it was wrong, why even bring it up? Why bring the fourth Hokage in there if he didn't apply? And if he's not as good, why not just say "The only person with better reflxes was the 4th Hokage?"



Point exactly. He didnt have the reflexes to get back into a fighting position. The point here is that Minato had the reflexes to Hirashin at point blank, Hirashin back, grab a kunai, put it in slashing position, slash, and then mark his prey while the Raikage was a sitting duck. 

I care because your wrong.

C's statement is based on opinion. Otherwise Haku > Kakashi, Sarutobi > Shodai, and Jiraiya alone destroys Itachi + Kisame + backup.


----------



## Oldy (Jul 28, 2012)

JPongo said:


> Tobi would win in a split second battle?
> Is that manga fact when the manga showed otherwise?
> Holy literacy!
> Tobi was at the mercy of Minato since he could appear anywhere around the tagged kunai.


Holy literacy indeed.
Tobi was going to touch Minato before the rasengan hit him in their straight clash is what the manga showed but this speed part of the battle didn't matter, speed wasn't what won the fight. 
Positioning and mind-game is what is really important between two space/time jutsu users who can respectively teleport anywhere near his tags and phase out of contact to counterattack whenever they want. Tobi wasn't at Minato's mercy just because a tag was near him, if he had guessed Minato's play, stayed intangible and waited for Minato to teleport and strike at nothing he would have been the one in position to win the fight... unless Minato had also guessed that and then unless Tobi had also another feint up his sleeve and so on and so on.
The winner wasn't decided merely by who was fastest, it was decided by who guessed correctly when the opponent committed himself to his strike.

Minato read the fight better and won.


shintebukuro said:


> Your interpretation on reflexes is simply wrong. And why do you even care? It doesn't downplay Minato's level of strength or anything.


As far as they're concerned you're trying to inject logic into godhood. Minato is beyond that, he's the bestestest. It's the only accepted dogma, anything else is insulting and probably a heresy .


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 28, 2012)

JPongo said:


> ^^The last DB should be more authoritative and hopefully will have Minato's numbers.



nin 5
tai 4.5
gen 4.5
intel 5
str 3.5
speed 5
stam 4.5
seals 5

Total 37

You can quote me on this. Perhaps his stamina will 4/5 or his genjutsu 4/5. But his total will be 36.5 or 37


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 28, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Gottheim's trans:
> 
> "雷影様の体内の神経伝達…反射のスピードは黄色い閃光に劣らない
> Raikage-sama's nerve impulse transmission and reflexes fall nothing short of those of the Yellow Flash in speed.
> ...



In this case I'll have to concede. Gottheim is a translator I trust.




Elite Uchiha said:


> Point exactly. He didnt have the reflexes to get back into a fighting position. The point here is that Minato had the reflexes to Hirashin at point blank, Hirashin back, grab a kunai, put it in slashing position, slash, and then mark his prey while the Raikage was a sitting duck.
> 
> I care because your wrong.
> 
> C's statement is based on opinion. Otherwise Haku > Kakashi, Sarutobi > Shodai, and Jiraiya alone destroys Itachi + Kisame + backup.



Reflexes had nothing to do with it. Raikage was in mid motion, it is not physically possible to halt all that momentum.
Hirashin is not movement, so I am not sure what your trying to compare here.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 28, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Reflexes had nothing to do with it. Raikage was in mid motion, it is not physically possible to halt all that momentum.
> Hirashin is not movement, so I am not sure what your trying to compare here.





He couldnt react in time. We agree on this correct? And grabbing the Kunai, slashing, and placing a tag on KB isnt movement ?


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## shintebukuro (Jul 28, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> He couldnt react in time. We agree on this correct? And grabbing the Kunai, slashing, and placing a tag on KB isnt movement ?



He could react, he just could not physically move his body to do anything about it because he had momentum from _running at his opponent and punching_.

You know how you can't drive at 100 miles per hour and stop on a dime, right?  It takes time for someone to physically stop whatever motion they are in the middle of, *but Minato doesn't have that limitation with Hiraishin.*

It has nothing to do with reflexes. _Nothing_. You don't have a clue.


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## SageEnergyMode (Jul 28, 2012)

Regardless of what C said about the Fourth Hokage and the Fourth Raikage, we have to also take into consideration what we have seen and witnessed.

Yes, I will take what C said comparing the two into consideration as a serious indication of where the two ninjas are in terms of their reflexes, because that pretty much comes straight from Kishimoto himself. However, something else we also need to take into consideration is what we've seen from the two ninja. There's a serious skill/talent gap between A and Minato, and that much was pretty obvious in their encounter that we saw.

We also have words from the Raikage himself that pretty much indicates he was Minato's inferior, not just in terms of speed. It was clearly about more than that. So, we all have to be very careful about how we compare the Fourth Raikage to Minato, because it's pretty clear that Minato is the superior ninja between the two, regardless of whether or not they have similarly impressive reflexes. A lot of good that seemed to do the Fourth Raikage as Minato was getting ready to plunge a Hiraishin kunai right into his back.

The excuses for why the Raikage couldn't react in time are irrelevant, because the fact of the matter is that all indications are that there wasn't anyway for him to recover and defend himself in time, and that's why Bee quickly knocked him out of the way. A is not on the same level as Minato. This has pretty much been established already.

Shintebukuro, your argument reminds me of when people said that Minato's Hiraishin couldn't be classified as true speed, but it's for exactly that reason that the Fourth Raikage says that Minato is faster than he is. You might think Hiraishin is not a reflex feat, but it most certainly is, just as Tobi's impressive use of his intangibility jutsu is also an example of his unbelievable reflexes. *Minato and the Raikage's reflexes are only on par when Minato doesn't use Hiraishin.* When Minato uses Hiraishin, the difference is significantly greater.

Minato was able to let go of a kunai, teleport to a tree behind A, and then quickly teleport right back to the very same kunai he let go of only moments before, all before A ever had a chance to even recover and defend himself. That's a strong testament to Minato's incredible reflexes, even if it is being significantly helped along by Minato's Hiraishin jutsu. It's a major part of Minato's abiltiies, and it completely benefits him in the areas of movement speed and reflexes.

Reflexes have to do with your ability to react to things, including threats. A's ability to react to the threat from Minato was significantly compared to Minato's ability to react to a threat from A.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 28, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> He could react, he just could not physically move his body to do anything about it because he had momentum from _running at his opponent and punching_.
> 
> You know how you can't drive at 100 miles per hour and stop on a dime, right?  It takes time for someone to physically stop whatever motion they are in the middle of, *but Minato doesn't have that limitation with Hiraishin.*
> 
> It has nothing to do with reflexes. _Nothing_. You don't have a clue.



he didn't even learn about the Elder and Young brothers

Plenty more example of stopping on a dime throughout this fight and the Sasuke vs Raikage fight. 

And please dont apply real world logic to Naruto.


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## SageEnergyMode (Jul 28, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> he didn't even learn about the Elder and Young brothers
> 
> Plenty more example of stopping on a dime throughout this fight and the Sasuke vs Raikage fight.
> 
> And please dont apply real world logic to Naruto.



That's yet another thing. There's no point trying to apply real world logic to Naruto.

Minato moved at an incredible speed to save Kakashi back during the Kakashi gaiden, and he was able to stop on a dime saving Kakashi and tagging that ninja with a Hiraishin marker, and he did this all while completely inverted upside down.

The Raikage is known for stopping on a dime once before, but Minato was simply too damn quick for him. 

No matter how unfair one might think it is, Hiraishin isn't just a speed feat for Minato. It's a reflex and reaction time feat as well. People would like to explain these things away just to somehow discredit or dehype Minato by just saying "Well, it's only cause of Hiraishin," but Hiraishin is a legitimate part of Minato's overall abilities and power, and it impacts Minato's reflexes as well as his speed. 

The Raikage's reflexes and speed with his Raiton shroud and version 2 of his raiton shroud are unbelievable.

Minato's reflexes and speed with Hiraishin are significantly better than anything the Raikage is capable of.

If Minato didn't have Hiraishin, he likely gets hit with the Raikage's punch, hence that wouldn't at all be a compliment of Minato's reflexes, now would they? Just because you don't think the way Minato avoids attacks is "fair" or similar to how other people do it, that doesn't take away from the fact that Minato's use of Hiraishin is still an impressive compliment to his reflexes.


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2012)

Oldy said:


> The side texts are added by editors to hype the action, aren't present in the released manga and are generally fairly stupid. If it came down only to who was a split second faster then Tobi was going to win but sheer speed wasn't the winning factor. Minato didn't win because he was a tiny bit faster, he won because he teleported to a place Tobi didn't expect.
> Tobi had the better tool but Minato had a better brain.


The editors know Kishimoto and know more about the manga than random fan. Plus the reason the editors added that is very clear. It's because it was stated that the winner would be decided by who was faster in the manga itself:
a second


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## Arles Celes (Jul 28, 2012)

Turrin said:


> The editors know Kishimoto and know more about the manga than random fan. Plus the reason the editors added that is very clear. It's because it was stated that the winner would be decided by who was faster in the manga itself:
> a second



What about Sasuke's carnage then? Sidetexts are not always 100% proven.

Besides didn't Tobi said," Damn, he teleported to the kunai he just threw!" instead of something like,"Damn he is just too fast. I couldn't keep up with him!".

From what Tobi said he sounded more like if he was outsmarted rather than "blitzed".

That said Minato won that day though if Tobi knew all there was to know about Hirashin he could have handled it better. Tobi was especially cocky that day and if he was like that right now then the moment he believed that he could absorb Naruto, Gai's nunchaku would smash his head. Tobi now seems more cautious than before.


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## Sniffers (Jul 28, 2012)

Arles Celes said:


> What about Sasuke's carnage then? Sidetexts are not always 100% proven.
> 
> Besides didn't Tobi said," Damn, he teleported to the kunai he just threw!" instead of something like,"Damn he is just too fast. I couldn't keep up with him!".
> 
> From what Tobi said he sounded more like if he was outsmarted rather than "blitzed".


Yeah, you are probably right. Minato noted that the one who gets the first blow wins. The emphasis was on Minato's clever tactics when he actually made the hit. Still, I think Minato was a little faster anyway.



Arles Celes said:


> That said Minato won that day though if Tobi knew all there was to know about Hirashin he could have handled it better. Tobi was especially cocky that day and if he was like that right now then the moment he believed that he could absorb Naruto, Gai's nunchaku would smash his head. Tobi now seems more cautious than before.


Agreed also. Tobi wasn't even taking Minato seriously at the beginning; a common and legitimate weakness of villains. However, he seems to have learned from that mistake. He appears much more focused to me which makes sense since this is the night his grand plan is supposed to be brought to fruition.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 28, 2012)

What makes you think Tobi wasnt taking Minato seriously again?


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2012)

Arles Celes said:


> What about Sasuke's carnage then? Sidetexts are not always 100% proven.
> 
> Besides didn't Tobi said," Damn, he teleported to the kunai he just threw!" instead of something like,"Damn he is just too fast. I couldn't keep up with him!".
> 
> ...


Your point would make sense if it was just the side-text saying this, but's it's the side-text + Minato declaring that speed would decide the battle. It's a complete and utter denial of cannon to say otherwise. Tobi did know Minato could teleport to Kunai he saw Minato do it right in-front of him:
a second



> Tobi was especially cocky that day and if he was like that right now then the moment he believed that he could absorb Naruto, Gai's nunchaku would smash his head. Tobi now seems more cautious than before.


Oh please enough of your excuses. Minato did better than Gai, Kakashi, Naruto, and B this chapter. He also could have handled Gai, Kakashi, Naruto, and B's combos this chapter just as easily as Tobi if not more so. That is just how hax'd Tobi and Minato's S/T jutsu are.


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## Sniffers (Jul 28, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> What makes you think Tobi wasnt taking Minato seriously again?


For the sake of mocking him Tobi didn't warp away Minato as fast he could. Typical villain stuff.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 28, 2012)

Wait what?


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## Arles Celes (Jul 28, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Your point would make sense if it was just the side-text saying this, but's it's the side-text + Minato declaring that speed would decide the battle. It's a complete and utter denial of cannon to say otherwise. Tobi did know Minato could teleport to Kunai he saw Minato do it right in-front of him:
> For the sake of mocking him Tobi didn't warp away Minato as fast he could
> 
> 
> Oh please enough of your excuses. Minato did better than Gai, Kakashi, Naruto, and B this chapter. He also could have handled Gai, Kakashi, Naruto, and B's combos this chapter just as easily as Tobi if not more so. That is just how hax'd Tobi and Minato's S/T jutsu are.



Speed certainly was a factor too otherwise even Hirashin wouldn't help if Tobi was faster. Tha said I do not beleive it to be the ONLY factor.

If Tobi knew that Minato could teleport to the kunai then why he sounded so surpised that Minato could do that? He knew how Hirashin V1 worked(that Minato could teleport to an unmoving object that was marked by him ex. the kunai on the ground). He didn't know about Hirashin 2 though for Minato himself said, "This is Hirashin level 2" like if he explained Tobi how he outsmarted him. This level of Hirashin was meant to be something beyond what Tobi expect of him.

Had Tobi feigned an attack and stayed intangible during their exchange then there was nothing that Minato could do to him. The rasengan would just slip past him. As long as he stays intangible no attack can hurt him. And if he couldn't absorb Minato even at full speed then neither would win since neither would be able to overcome the defenses of the other. 

I'm not sure if Minato could have handled RM Naruto, Kakashi, and Gai since to defeat them would require a different strategy than against Tobi. Besides Tobi focused more on defense and was less cocky than during his fight with Minato.Also he only owned a bunshin while the good guys despite his focus on defence were able to scratch his mask already.


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## Oldy (Jul 28, 2012)

Turrin said:


> The editors know Kishimoto and know more about the manga than random fan. Plus the reason the editors added that is very clear.


Yeah it is: being paid minimum wage to add all caps tibits of text that end up to be completely wrong more often than not to a dozen different stories in a weekly magazine. Oh wait, did you actually think the editors who work directly with the authors are the same guys paid to write those meaningless comments? 
Stop with this inane argument about 'utter denial of cannon'. It's pointless to link a pic from before their clash when we *saw* how Minato won that fight and we saw that simple speed wasn't the deciding factor of the battle.


Arles Celes said:


> That said Minato won that day though if Tobi knew all there was to know about Hirashin he could have handled it better. Tobi was especially cocky that day and if he was like that right now then the moment he believed that he could absorb Naruto, Gai's nunchaku would smash his head. Tobi now seems more cautious than before.


I don't think it's what Kishi went for, it's just that he can't write smart characters for shit and has to dumb down their opponents to make it seem they are smarter in comparison.
Think Hidan and Shika with the two fodders in awe of his guesswork when all he did was made a painfully obvious conclusion to anyone with a iq above 60.
It's the same with Tobi and Yondaime, trying to absorb Minato more slowly than he could, trying to bind him in chain or charging head-on without precaution when he knew Minato could teleport was mindblowingly stupid but I feel that it's because it was more difficult to write Minato doing something clever and unexpected rather than Tobi lacking a functional brain.
What we are mean to take from this is how amazingly skilled Minato was, not that Tobi was bloody stupid.


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## JPongo (Jul 28, 2012)

Oldy said:


> Holy literacy indeed.
> Tobi was going to touch Minato before the rasengan hit him in their straight clash is what the manga showed but this speed part of the battle didn't matter, speed wasn't what won the fight.
> Positioning and mind-game is what is really important between two space/time jutsu users who can respectively teleport anywhere near his tags and phase out of contact to counterattack whenever they want. Tobi wasn't at Minato's mercy just because a tag was near him, if he had guessed Minato's play, stayed intangible and waited for Minato to teleport and strike at nothing he would have been the one in position to win the fight... unless Minato had also guessed that and then unless Tobi had also another feint up his sleeve and so on and so on.
> The winner wasn't decided merely by who was fastest, it was decided by who guessed correctly when the opponent committed himself to his strike.
> ...



Please refrain from trying to label me as nothing but a mindless wanker, I'm far from it

And notice how you try to discredit Minato's accomplishment with possibilities Tobi could have.  It's not what went down.

And that could essentially be done to any character losing to another

Am I being illogical now?


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## Oldy (Jul 28, 2012)

JPongo said:


> Please refrain from trying to label me as nothing but a mindless wanker, I'm far from it
> 
> And notice how you try to discredit Minato's accomplishment with possibilities Tobi could have.  It's not what went down.


I know you can't realize why but your first sentence goes so wonderfully well with the second.


> Am I being illogical now?


Yes, but please stay that way it's adorable.


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## lathia (Jul 28, 2012)

Speed > "Positioning" > "Mind-game" all in that order is how the battle was won. Without the 1st, the others could not have been achieved.


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## JPongo (Jul 28, 2012)

Oldy said:


> I know you can't realize why but your first sentence goes so wonderfully well with the second.
> 
> Yes, but please stay that way it's adorable.



So when you make stuff up for the sake of your argument, it's okay.

I'm going by manga evidence and that makes me a mindless wanker?  You are lost.

And you haven't proven what I said false except to attack me personally.

Would that be considered adorable as well?

LOL.


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## Oldy (Jul 28, 2012)

lathia said:


> Speed > "Positioning" > "Mind-game" all in that order is how the battle was won. Without the 1st, the others could not have been achieved.


Without the first it's rare to have anything achieved, you've got to be at least reasonably around the same range of speed than the ennemy. I'm not saying Minato isn't very fast, I'm saying the reason he bested Tobi was more because he was smarter than because he was faster. 

JPongo your neg message are even cuter than your usual posts, keep up the good work.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 28, 2012)

They both have teleportation. Minato was faster. End of story.


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## JPongo (Jul 28, 2012)

Oldy said:


> JPongo your neg message are even cuter than your usual posts, keep up the good work.



You're welcome

It's always nice to have someone resort to non-thread-essential remarks

Oldy but not goody

LOL.

Minato > Tobi


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## Turrin (Jul 29, 2012)

Arles Celes said:


> Speed certainly was a factor too otherwise even Hirashin wouldn't help if Tobi was faster. Tha said I do not beleive it to be the ONLY factor.


It was the deciding factor. There were other factors, but speed decided their match.



> If Tobi knew that Minato could teleport to the kunai then why he sounded so surpised that Minato could do that? He knew how Hirashin V1 worked(that Minato could teleport to an unmoving object that was marked by him ex. the kunai on the ground). He didn't know about Hirashin 2 though for Minato himself said, "This is Hirashin level 2" like if he explained Tobi how he outsmarted him. This level of Hirashin was meant to be something beyond what Tobi expect of him.


FTG LV 2 is just Minato using FTG so he teleports in such a way where his attack is already hitting the enemy when he completes the teleport. It's something that adds speed to Minato's attack. So again the deciding factor was speed. The explanation was directed at tell Tobi how he bested him in speed. Tobi also wasn't like OMG he can teleport to his Kunai not knowing what happened, he was just like dam Minato managed to teleport before I could grab him.



> Had Tobi feigned an attack and stayed intangible during their exchange then there was nothing that Minato could do to him. The rasengan would just slip past him. As long as he stays intangible no attack can hurt him. And if he couldn't absorb Minato even at full speed then neither would win since neither would be able to overcome the defenses of the other.


This would make sense if Tobi's intangibility was infinite, but it's not. It can only be used for 5min's and than has some unknown cool down time. So the match would have gone on longer, but eventually Minato would have gotten the advantage even if Tobi just stayed intangible the entire time. 



> I'm not sure if Minato could have handled RM Naruto, Kakashi, and Gai since to defeat them would require a different strategy than against Tobi.


Who said defeat them? I said he could have evaded all the combo attacks that these guys dished out this chapter with as much or greater ease than Tobi. 



> Besides Tobi focused more on defense and was less cocky than during his fight with Minato.


Tobi is fighting the exact same way against Team Naruto as he was fighting against Minato. In-fact he has become tangible more times and these guys have the advantage of intel. So enough with the excuses already.



> .Also he only owned a bunshin while the good guys despite his focus on defence were able to scratch his mask already.


Should I give the good guys a cookie for being able to cause no damage to Tobi, just because they were able to cause a scratch in an article of his clothing LOL. And with Minato being a split second faster than Tobi, they probably wouldn't have even scratched Minato's clothing yet if he was in Tobi's position.



Oldy said:


> Yeah it is: being paid minimum wage to add all caps tibits of text that end up to be completely wrong more often than not to a dozen different stories in a weekly magazine. Oh wait, did you actually think the editors who work directly with the authors are the same guys paid to write those meaningless comments?
> Stop with this inane argument about 'utter denial of cannon'. It's pointless to link a pic from before their clash when we *saw* how Minato won that fight and we saw that simple speed wasn't the deciding factor of the battle.


I would like to see some proof that these editors know less about the Naruto manga than random fan. Hell for that matter I have never even seen proof that Kishimoto himself doesn't write the sidetext.

And yes it is a denail of cannon to try and say speed wasn't the deciding factor when that is what Minato said it would come down to. Sorry but that's all there is too it.


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## Black☆Star (Jul 29, 2012)

Naruto surpassed Minato a long time ago


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## Arles Celes (Jul 29, 2012)

Turrin said:


> It was the deciding factor. There were other factors, but speed decided their match.
> 
> 
> FTG LV 2 is just Minato using FTG so he teleports in such a way where his attack is already hitting the enemy when he completes the teleport. It's something that adds speed to Minato's attack. So again the deciding factor was speed. The explanation was directed at tell Tobi how he bested him in speed. Tobi also wasn't like OMG he can teleport to his Kunai not knowing what happened, he was just like dam Minato managed to teleport before I could grab him.
> ...



It terms of Shunshin it seems that actually Tobi was faster since he managed to touch Minato's shoudler before Minato reached him with a rasengan
Tobi wants neither Peace nor War.

Though in fact it would seem that Minato's FTG was faster than Tobi's absorbing ability. I guess the "speed" thing comes more to how fast the s/t jutsus work rather than regular speed. Tobi's s/t is more advanced and more versatile but a little bit slower in execution. Though maybe(according at least to Tobi himself) it could defeat Minato if used right away after taking Minato off guard. Or not...we probably will never know for sure.

Tob's intangibility isn't infinite but if he cannot be blitzed with shunshin then all he needs to do is to stay away from the marked kunais and activate his intangibility when he is close to one of them. If his s/t justu has a very small cool down then he just needs to turn it on/off when he is a bit away from Minato/the kunais. That way if he focuses on defense he can effectively remain undefeated. The question comes to how much chakra his s/t uses in comparison to FTG and how much chakra do they have. Based on Kakshi's comment regarding Tobi's bijuu control we can assume that Tobi has LOTS of chakra.

RM Naruto with his speed being probably above Minato's shunshin and arguably at the same level as FTG(at least occasionally) combined with his unpredictability, Kakashi's intelligence, Gai's incedibly hight taijutsu, and their overall good teamwork would be more difficult to handle than trying to wait till Tobi becomes tangible for a counterattack.


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## Trojan (Jul 29, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> Naruto surpassed Minato a long time ago



Isn't that event about SM ?
he surpassed them in SM


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 29, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> He couldnt react in time. We agree on this correct? And grabbing the Kunai, slashing, and placing a tag on KB isnt movement ?




Are you being serious ? 


How is it physically possible for a runner to stop his movement instantly when he is running @max speed ? 

Minato teleported on his back while he was in mid motion, its not like Raikage didn't notice him, it just wasn't physically possible for him to do anything about it.


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## Kevin the Dot (Jul 29, 2012)

Does Tobi even have a reason to not just be constantly intangible here? I mean, what if he's just buying time for the 10 tails and fucking around with those three? Maybe he's pretending he's trying to grab and suck in naruto constantly so they'll keep trying to counter him instead of heading right for the statue while Tobi just remains completely intangible.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jul 29, 2012)

KCM Naruto didn't go all out yet. 
KCM Naruto w/ 13 clones is too much for Minato to handle, let alone KCM Naruto with Kakashi and Gai...
As much I like Minato, Naruto surpassed Minato and Jiraiya with SM...The message was very clear.

I wonder why some people love to argue with Manga canon like: Naruto surpassed Minato with SM, Hiruzen history strongest hokage and Shisui the best genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan....


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## Garfield (Jul 29, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> Naruto surpassed Minato a long time ago


In amt of chakra? sure


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 29, 2012)

Mickie said:


> I wonder why some people love to argue with Manga canon like: Naruto surpassed Minato with SM, Hiruzen history strongest hokage and Shisui the best genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan....



Because none of them are true ?


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## Black☆Star (Jul 29, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> Isn't that event about SM ?
> he surpassed them in SM


RM Naruto


adee said:


> In amt of chakra? sure


The only thing Naruto doesn't have over Minato is speed, but he is pretty damn close to him .
But you probably want Naruto to exceed Minato in every possible field to declare him stronger than his father, which is stupid .


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## Trojan (Jul 29, 2012)

Mickie said:


> KCM Naruto didn't go all out yet.
> KCM Naruto w/ 13 clones is too much for Minato to handle, let alone KCM Naruto with Kakashi and Gai...
> As much I like Minato, Naruto surpassed Minato and Jiraiya with SM...The message was very clear.
> 
> I wonder why some people love to argue with Manga canon like: Naruto surpassed Minato with SM, Hiruzen history strongest hokage and Shisui the best genjutsu user of the Uchiha clan....



1-Naruto clone lost against black Zetsu the weakest character in the manga.Dat
clone or whatever it call didn't won against the kage accept with help.

2- You just ignore where the statement said. Look
Link removed
 he said "ancestor," and of course we know they're some people who
tried to learn SM.

now
 Link removed
he said "looks like Naruto has surpassed those who *came before him*,"

What does he mean by "came before him," ?
I believe he meant those who came to the mountain to learn SM, most likely Minato & Jiraiya were the best in SM and the other failed at that moment Naruto was the best in SM and he  surpassed them

Example whey you must not ignore the situation because that make nonsense

Link removed
Yamato said "He's not as good as Yondaime yet"

If I'll ignore the event as you do is he meant
Minato stronger than RM Naruto ? Or he meant in speed ?
So is that mean Minato > RM Naruto > Sm Naruto > Minato ?

nonsense!

 and If you say he meant in speed then Why you don't think the frog meant in SM ?

SM Naruto >= MS Sasuku = A at that time and they are even < B
and both Naruto and MS Sasuke didn't do shit against Tobi even pre- Rinnagan.

Minato > A & B together and he beat Tobi in minuet. There is no way the frog mean Naruto surpassed them  in something else than SM.

also you said. 





> I wonder why some people love to argue with Manga canon like



look at what A said
Link removed

so how you can Link between what A said and what the frog said ?
are you will argue what A said ? or what he said doesn't count like canon ?

just like What I said B> Sm Naruto > MS Sasuke = A

and if Naruto was stronger than Minato at that time why Minato said that to him ?
Minato: "Quite a formidable shinobi. Someone you need extraordinary strength to stand against and hope to have any chance of defeating." 

Why he warning him ? Why he didn't say I defeat him in a minute and you are stronger than me now you can defeat him in second ?  

why he didn't think Naruto has any chance against him ?
"stand against and hope to have any chance of defeating"

that my opinion at least.
sorry about my bad English.


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## Trojan (Jul 29, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> RM Naruto



What about him ?


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 29, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Are you being serious ?
> 
> 
> How is it physically possible for a runner to stop his movement instantly when he is running @max speed ?
> ...



Please stop applying real world physics to a manga that has sharkmen vomiting oceans, snakes coming out of snakes that come out of snakes, and people bending space and time. 

Re-read the Naruto vs Raikage scuffle and Sasuke vs Raikage fight to see Raikage stop on a dime.


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## Black☆Star (Jul 29, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> What about him ?



I was saying RM Naruto > Minato, not SM Naruto


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## Trojan (Jul 29, 2012)

Black☆Star said:


> I was saying RM Naruto > Minato, not SM Naruto



I see. 
honestly some time I think he is stronger than him, but
when he did something stupid I doubt.  

Whatever even if he stronger he's my favorite after all. 
and he still need his father's "that jutsu" so who know, maybe "that jutsu"
make Minato stronger than what we thought. 

Finally, Naruto stronger than Minato so at the end it's pointless.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jul 29, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> 1-Naruto clone lost against black Zetsu the weakest character in the manga.Dat
> clone or whatever it call didn't won against the kage accept with help.
> 
> 2- You just ignore where the statement said. Look
> ...



1. Naruto was exhausted due of overuse of Kyuubi Chakra and don't understimate the Black Zetsu by saying that he's the weakest character in the Manga.

2.  









I think those Image said more than 1000 words.

The "Hokage" that Naruto is mentioning is Minato, since He admired Minato more than any other Hokage and he always wanted to surpass Minato.

We have Kakashi confirmation that he surpassed Minato.

3. The comment of Yamato of Naruto not being at Minato level yet: Was only about speed  and Kishi made it very clear that Naruto don't need to be superior in all areas to surpass someone. Example: Naruto FRS being stronger than Kakashi.


4. You know that Minato vs Tobi was a rushed fight right?
Tobi wanted to finish off Minato quickly, He understimated Minato  and Minato ability were the best suited to fight Tobi.


5. Ei comment about Minato: "One I thought Would never be surpassed" past sentence and Mistranslation.

6. Are you saying that Minato would said to Naruto: Naruto, you're already stronger than me, now you can defeat Tobi in one second. WTF is this Bullshit thing.

Minato  comment about Tobi is not compared with Naruto strenght, he's just praising Tobi.



KCM Naruto and BM Naruto are only compared with Minato in speed not in strenght.

And now that Naruto is friend with the Kyuubi, He can probably create more than 50 KCM or 50 SM Clones.

I can't even Imagine Minato vs  50 KCM Naruto clones or 50 SM Naruto clones.:S total stomp.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 29, 2012)

"I believe that only you [naruto] can surpass the Fourth Hokage.
*~ Kakashi, The Legendary Copy Ninja of the Leaf*

"There was never a man that could surpass him [Fourth Hokage] "
*~ The Legendary Raikage, fastest man in the world.*

"That unrivalled strength [Minato], that carefree smile.."
*~ Masashi Kishimoto, Creator of Naruto*

Aw come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind.
*~Jiraiya, the Legendary Sannin*

"You deserve the title of Fourth Hokage..Managing to wound me and wrest the fox from my control in one move"

*~ Tobi, The Final Villain*


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## Gilgamesh (Jul 29, 2012)

Shodai>>>Minato


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## Black☆Star (Jul 29, 2012)

Anyone who can tank/absorb Rasengan >> Minato


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 29, 2012)

I will believe the Legendary Kakashi, Jiraiya, Raikage, Kishimoto, and Tobi's opinions over a bunch of no namers


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## Trojan (Jul 29, 2012)

> =Mickie;43953384]1. Naruto was exhausted due of overuse of Kyuubi Chakra and don't understimate the Black Zetsu by saying that he's the weakest character in the Manga.



it's clone.  and your excuse doesn't change anything because that clone never show tired accept if you have photo for him and I forgot about it.  About Zetsu is there anyone weaker than him ? maybe you mean White Zetsu ? 


> 2.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You didn't bring anything new, did you ?
you didn't explain why he didn't meant in SM ? 
especially that Jirayia and Minato aren't in same level!

and by the way I can't see the last two.  


> The "Hokage" that Naruto is mentioning is Minato, since He admired Minato more than any other Hokage and he always wanted to surpass Minato.



So ? what your point ? 
what the relation between this and what the frog meant ?


> 3. The comment of Yamato of Naruto not being at Minato level yet: Was only about speed  and Kishi made it very clear that Naruto don't need to be superior in all areas to surpass someone. Example: Naruto FRS being stronger than Kakashi.



Oh please 
so why you don't ignore the event here and you ignore it there ?
or it's because what you comfortable with ?

about your example Kakashi said 
"might" & "wonder" so what "clear" You are talking about ?





> 4. You know that Minato vs Tobi was a rushed fight right?
> Tobi wanted to finish off Minato quickly, He understimated Minato and payed the price for it and Minato's ability were the best suited to fight Tobi.



I don't remember if there "rushed" in VIZ translate, does it have ?  
and in top of that you still make excuse at the end he lost and that the matter.


> 5. Ei comment about Minato: "One I thought Would never be surpassed" past sentence and Mistranslation.


Ok then, what about this ?

CHAPTER 321 PAGE 11
Kakashi: "Its because I truly believe...That you're the only shinobi
 that can surpass the fourth Hokage."

and what about this translate ?
[2]


> 6. Are you saying that Minato would said to Naruto: Naruto, you're already stronger than me, now you can defeat Tobi in one second. WTF is this Bullshit thing.
> 
> Minato  comment about Tobi is not compared with Naruto strenght, he's just praising Tobi.



you still make no sense
we already now Minato > Tobi
(whether you like it or not. And the excuse you try to make is not big deal)

and If Naruto> Minato at that time why he'd say something like
what you said


> Tobi is not compared with Naruto strenght


what the point ? Naruto should be stronger than tobi as well 
he'll not praising if he weak  or weaker than Naruto and can do nothing!



> KCM Naruto and BM Naruto are only compared with Minato in speed not in strenght.


you see ?
you don't ignore the event whenever you want and ignore it whenever you
want. 


> > And now that Naruto is friend with the Kyuubi, He can probably create more than 50 KCM or 50 SM Clones.



"probably" doesn't change anything! if that happen then it worth. 

any way this much of discussion is enough for me.
Thanks ( :


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## Turrin (Jul 29, 2012)

Arles Celes said:


> It terms of Shunshin it seems that actually Tobi was faster since he managed to touch Minato's shoudler before Minato reached him with a rasengan
> Link removed


No he didn't you can clearly see his fingers were just about to touch Minato's shoulder not quite there yet. 



> Though in fact it would seem that Minato's FTG was faster than Tobi's absorbing ability. I guess the "speed" thing comes more to how fast the s/t jutsus work rather than regular speed. Tobi's s/t is more advanced and more versatile but a little bit slower in execution. Though maybe(according at least to Tobi himself) it could defeat Minato if used right away after taking Minato off guard. Or not...we probably will never know for sure.


Now your getting it. Minato with FTG is faster than Tobi, which is what decided the battle. 



> Tob's intangibility isn't infinite but if he cannot be blitzed with shunshin then all he needs to do is to stay away from the marked kunais and activate his intangibility when he is close to one of them. If his s/t justu has a very small cool down then he just needs to turn it on/off when he is a bit away from Minato/the kunais. That way if he focuses on defense he can effectively remain undefeated.


It easy to say that a character just stays away from Minato's FTG Kunai or marks, but in practice even top speed demons with great reaction feats have failed to accomplish this (A, B, Tobi himself). So I do not think Tobi could do it. 



> The question comes to how much chakra his s/t uses in comparison to FTG and how much chakra do they have. Based on Kakshi's comment regarding Tobi's bijuu control we can assume that Tobi has LOTS of chakra.


Tobi seems to have a great deal of chakra, but I fail to see how Tobi would exhaust Minato if all he's doing is staying intangible and staying away from Kunai spamming his S/T jutsu. This doesn't force Minato do anything chakra consuming so Tobi will eventually exhaust himself and loose. 

Also it's kind of an assumption on your part that Tobi's intangibility works where he can recharge it any time he wants. It's very possible that the cool down comes after 5minutes of use whether he turns it on/off or not, which again would leave openings for Minato to exploit.

I think the author made it pretty clear that Minato > Pre-Rinnegan Tobi, even if only by the split second separating them in their execution of S/T Jutsu speed. 



> RM Naruto with his speed being probably above Minato's shunshin and arguably at the same level as FTG(at least occasionally) combined with his unpredictability, Kakashi's intelligence, Gai's incedibly hight taijutsu, and their overall good teamwork would be more difficult to handle than trying to wait till Tobi becomes tangible for a counterattack.


Possibly and possibly Naruto will need BM, only time will tell. However so far Minato has outperformed them, that is all that i'm saying. 

We'll see how much Tobi can handle with just his S/T jutsu. What he already showed he could handle last chapter already puts him and Minato with their S/T jutsu as more powerful than I previously thought they were, but not to the point where I'd consider them on the level of Madara or something like that with just their S/T jutsu. However if Tobi can keep this up even with Gai going gates, B joining the frey directly, or Naruto creating more clones with possibly some SM ones, than I'll have to seriously reconsider where I have placed Minato and Tobi.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jul 29, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> it's clone.  and your excuse doesn't change anything because that clone never show tired accept if you have photo for him and I forgot about it.  About Zetsu is there anyone weaker than him ? maybe you mean White Zetsu ?
> 
> 
> You didn't bring anything new, did you ?
> ...



1. you do even read the Manga or what? We all know that KCM Naruto clone against black zetsu was exhuasted,  because Naruto was overusing the Kyuubi Chakra. I can't even remember that chapter.

2. 







Kakashi confirmed that Naruto surpassed Minato. I think those Image said more than 1000 words.
The "Hokage" that Naruto is mentioning in the flashback is Minato, since he admired Minato more than any other Hokage and always wanted to surpass him.

Naruto surpassed Minato and he was praised as a hero

Coincidence? No. and that was after Pain: SM Naruto





3. Kakashi comment about that: He believe that Naruto is only one who can Surpass Minato is not about power or being a Ninja:

LikeNaruto

Read the chapter carefully, he was talking about that Minato not was able to combine rasengan with his element and that he believed that Naruto was the only capable of surpassing Minato: by combining his element with Rasengan.
And he did it: FRS.

4. Ehhh, I know Minato>Tobi.


5. WTF? Now you're telling me Minato can't praise Tobi?


6. ehhhh, when was KCM Naruto or BM Naruto campared with Minato other than Speed?

7. Do you know that Naruto with The Full Chakra of the Kyuubi at his disposal he can probably create more than 50 or more SM Naruto clones right?

Anyway, I'm done with you...The Message was super clear that SM Naruto surpassed Minato...


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## Trojan (Jul 29, 2012)

> =Mickie;43954138]1. you do even read the Manga or what? We all know that KCM Naruto clone against black zetsu was exhuasted,  because Naruto was overusing the Kyuubi Chakra. I can't even remember that chapter.



ok it's up to you I'm lazy to look for the chapter.



> 2.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seriously, even you do you believe in what you say ?

You can't explain "Hokage" as you want honey, because Naruto want surpass all the Hokage not just  Minato and I can't see Kakashi say anything you try to say or explain. nonsense 

if you'll take it like this then Naruto stronger than ALL the hokage since SM.
And not what you think because he didn't say Minato or 4th hokage but
he said only Hokage that mean any of them or all of them !



> Coincidence? No. and that was after Pain: SM Naruto
> 
> 3. Kakashi comment about that: He belive that Naruto is only one who can Surpass Minato is not about power or being a Ninja:
> 
> ...



hahaha look at you. You said now the event was about Rasengan so he meant in rassengan and with Yamato the event was about speed so he meant
the speed _BUT_ when the event was about SM all of sadden he didn't meant about SM like the other but he meant something else!!! ridiculous




> 5. WTF? Now you're telling me Minato can't praise Tobi?


believe me I'm the one who should say "WTF" can I now why
you thing Minato praise Tobi and the frog didn't prait naruto for example ? 

the funny thing you said Kish make it clear ! but at the same time
he make Naruto and Sasuke at the same level and we saw that Sasuke almost die against A who can do nothing against Minato even with B!!

and of course you now what B did to Sasuke (who was almost in same level as Naruto) don't you ?




> 7. Do you know that Naruto with The Full Chakra of the Kyuubi at his disposal he can probably create more than 50 or more SM Naruto clones right?



I know


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## Oga Tatsumi (Jul 29, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> ok it's up to you I'm lazy to look for the chapter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




1. Naruto admired Minato more than the others Hokage and Yes, Naruto wanted to surpass all the Hokages but he wanted to surpass Minato the most.
Seriously, I already brought you all the evidence that point SM Naruto>Minato.
who talk of nonse here now?

2. You do even have common sense or al least readed the chapter? A person with common sense should already know that Kakashi was talking about the Rasengan.

3. WTF with this Minato praise Tobi and Frog prait Naruto? nonsense.

4. Do you know that was a Sasuke without his MS Mastered right? When he was fighting against Raikage, he was starting to master his MS powers.

5. The Sasuke that fighted against Bee was just starting to master his MS powers and No, SM Naruto and MS Sasuke without mastery over his MS are not in the same level.

6. Do you know that Minato defeated a Young Raikage and a Super very young Bee right? Minato vs Young Raikage + Super Young Bee was a draw, 
You can't even compare that A and Bee with that of now


Seriously, the one who talk nonsense here's is you, you don't even have common sense and don't even read the Manga.
Don't expect more replies after this.


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## Inferno (Jul 29, 2012)

Gilgamesh said:


> Shodai>>>Minato



Hiruzen > Hashirama.


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## shintebukuro (Jul 29, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Please stop applying real world physics to a manga that has sharkmen vomiting oceans, snakes coming out of snakes that come out of snakes, and people bending space and time.
> 
> Re-read the Naruto vs Raikage scuffle and Sasuke vs Raikage fight to see Raikage stop on a dime.



You're the one applying real world physics. We have no statement or indication that Minato has any faster reflexes than what it was stated he had. 

You're the one who's dismissing a statement based on real world physics. Really, your entire argument is nonsense. Nothing you point out suggests anything about reflexes, and then when you're told that, you deflect it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 30, 2012)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Please stop applying real world physics to a manga that has sharkmen vomiting oceans, snakes coming out of snakes that come out of snakes, and people bending space and time.
> 
> Re-read the Naruto vs Raikage scuffle and Sasuke vs Raikage fight to see Raikage stop on a dime.



Naruto wasn't running @ top speed when Raikage first came @him  and Naruto was expecting it.

Raikage also circled behind Sasuke, didn't charge straight @him.

Minato teleported on the guys back when he was in mid punch / charge. 

Context can't be ignored.


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## BloodSeed (Jul 31, 2012)

Saunion said:


> Very ggod point! Proove that Fu adn Turone >>> Minoto!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



read the last chapter that fu and turune is invalid including konan. 

its clear what naruto guy and kakashi is trying to achieve is like what minato do to tobi. 

when tobi tried to suck he becomes solid thats when they attack
they will use feints to trick tobi
they wont use any big attacks

see the similarity of what they are trying to do? just like minato
so fu and turune and konan are invalid


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## Tir (Jul 31, 2012)

As I see it, Tobi didn't use anything that is different with his fight against Minato. Don't say the fan. It's pretty much a non factor here.

What made me laugh the most after reading the whole 21 pages is how desperate people to do some damage control. 'Tobi has grown stronger in this 17 years', 'Gai hasn't activated the gates yet', 'Fuu and Torune>>Minato and Tobi + Gai +Kakashi' and many more. 

The level of hate and downplaying for Minato in this site is unbelievable.


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## BloodSeed (Jul 31, 2012)

Mickie said:


> 1. Naruto admired Minato more than the others Hokage and Yes, Naruto wanted to surpass all the Hokages but he wanted to surpass Minato the most.
> Seriously, I already brought you all the evidence that point SM Naruto>Minato.
> who talk of nonse here now?
> 
> ...



not so fast...
old hiruzen was hailed the STRONGEST among the 5 kages
that includes A
minato > a 12 years younger hiruzen when the 9 tails attack
has surpassed a much more younger hiruzen when MINATO BECOMES a HOKAGE about a year or more before the 9 tails attack

hiruzen when the 9 tailes attack>>>old hiruzen>>A
just like orochimaru stated that when its 10years earlier hiruzen would beat him

youre welcome...

you call me sensie!


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 31, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> You're the one applying real world physics. We have no statement or indication that Minato has any faster reflexes than what it was stated he had.
> 
> You're the one who's dismissing a statement based on real world physics. Really, your entire argument is nonsense. Nothing you point out suggests anything about reflexes, and then when you're told that, you deflect it.



How am I applying real world physics? Are you really going to use Shi's statement as fact? Ok then Ill use my whole sig as complete fact as well. Not to mention Jiraiya > Itachi + Kisame


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## egressmadara (Jul 31, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Seriously, Tobi uses nothing but taijutsu and phasing and yet they couldn't land a single blow.
> 
> Hirashin is really too powerful. It makes the difference.


Insta-teleportation ftw.


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## lazer (Jul 31, 2012)

I gotta admit, tobi man handling kcm naruto, ms kakashi and gai, simultaneously, was fucking 7eet. And wtf is this fan! kcm naruto struggled to block it. Is it magical or what.


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## Sniffers (Jul 31, 2012)

^ Yeah, that fan is fairly amazing. It even blocked a Rasengan-blitz from KCM Naruto. Tobi's defenses went way up with it, especially how he also uses it to pull himself out of harms way with the string that is attached to it.


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## lazer (Jul 31, 2012)

Sniffers said:


> ^ Yeah, that fan is fairly amazing. It even blocked a Rasengan-blitz from KCM Naruto. Tobi's defenses went way up with it, especially how he also uses it to pull himself out of harms way with the string that is attached to it.



Ahhh...so that's what he did on page 12! :amazed wtf, tobi thinks his spiderman now. Just how in the fuck did madara lose vs the 1st when he had kyuubi and the fan on his side...


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