# Vegeta (any) vs. War Hulk and Juggernaught



## Kuya (Aug 10, 2006)

Who wins?????


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## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

Slaughter much!?! Vegeta would wish that Kakarotto had him killed on their first meeting after facing these two.


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## Kuya (Aug 10, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Slaughter much!?! Vegeta would wish that Kakarotto had him killed on their first meeting after facing these two.



They wouldn't be able to match his speed. Especially if he's SSJ4. Or if he turns into the Golden Monkey.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

SSJ4 is non-canon, though. War Hulk and the Juggernaut could easily handle the Golden Oozaru.


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## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

Konoha Elite said:
			
		

> They wouldn't be able to match his speed. Especially if he's SSJ4. Or if he turns into the Golden Monkey.



And what's so impressive about SSJ4 that makes him above War Hulk and Juggernaut? And Vegeta's strategy would be his downfall, regardless of having a speed advantage. You know, the common DBZ stategy of pouning close in first, powering up, pounding away some more, powering up some more AND FINALLY their ultimate attack. War Hulk and Juggernaut won't feel the "pounding away" junk and then one blow from either could spell potential death for Vegeta.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

War Hulk and Juggernaut could just easily wear out Vegeta.


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## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Can either Juggernaut or War Hulk destroy a planet? 

Just wondering.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Hulk probably can, if he gets angry enough.

But destroying the planet won't do Vegeta much good, as I don't think either Hulk nor Juggernaut need oxygen.


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## SoulTaker (Aug 10, 2006)

They don't need oxygen, in space,and their durability is off the charts.Juggernaut has been reduced to bones,or was it a head,meh it doesn't matter he kept on fighting despite this.Classic Juggernaut would rape Vegeta,and War Hulk would to.


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## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Hulk probably can, if he gets angry enough.
> 
> But destroying the planet won't do Vegeta much good, as I don't think either Hulk nor Juggernaut need oxygen.


Well I remember Freiza being able to blow up a planet with a single finger, and with pretty much no effort. By the end of the Buu saga, Vegata's power far surpasses Frieza's. So i'm pretty sure Vegeta is more than able to destroy a planet with ease (using this as a measure of strength). Adding his super speed and incredible fighting skill on top of that power; I don't really see War Hulk or Juggernaut winning this.

But i'm not too familiar with western comics, so unless you state some incredible feats that were accomplished by Juggernaut and War Hulk that exceed anything Vegeta could do, I don't see Vegeta losing.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Juggernaut can never get tired, need to sleep or eat, breathe, or any such thing. He can not be moved unless he wants to, and when he does move he gains infinite momentum.

War Hulk gets stronger as he get angrier, to which there is no limit. Hulk has the best regeneration-factor in Marvel, if I recall correctly.

Vegeta is more bound to tire himself out.


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## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Well I remember Freiza being able to blow up a planet with a single finger, and with pretty much no effort. By the end of the Buu saga, Vegata's power far surpasses Frieza's. So i'm pretty sure Vegeta is more than able to destroy a planet with ease (using this as a measure of strength). Adding his super speed and incredible fighting skill on top of that power; I don't really see War Hulk or Juggernaut winning this.
> 
> But i'm not too familiar with western comics, so unless you state some incredible feats that were accomplished by Juggernaut and War Hulk that exceed anything Vegeta could do, I don't see Vegeta losing.



The thing is... Vegeta's fighting TWO opponents, not one, that are NIGH indestructible. Speed blitzing is out of the question as they can take Vegeta's poundings. The only sure-fire strategy for Vegeta would be destroying the planet and hoping Kakarotto's there to teleport him to another. That would give him a draw, at best. But the likeliness of Vegeta destroying a planet on the first move (or at all, for that matter) is very low. And the likeliness of Kakarotto doing that is even more so.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Destroying the planet would only be handing the victory over to War II and Juggs, IMO.


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## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Juggernaut can never get tired, need to sleep or eat, breathe, or any such thing.


Not needing to sleep, eat, or breathe isn't really going to help in this. Unless Vegeta tries to choke him to death or something.



			
				Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> He can not be moved unless he wants to, and when he does move he gains infinite momentum.


What's this being compared to though? Has he ever faced an opponent as strong as Vegeta before? An opponent with the capability and power to destroy an entire planet with ease?



			
				Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> War Hulk gets stronger as he get angrier, to which there is no limit. Hulk has the best regeneration-factor in Marvel, if I recall correctly.


Still doesn't prove that his strength is higher than Vegeta's. Maybe Vegeta could destroy him before he could even get a chance to get super angry.



			
				Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Vegeta is more bound to tire himself out.


Not if he ends it quickly.


None of those things really provide support to their actual strength. Not being able to get tired, and getting stronger the more they get angry doesn't really help them too much in the situation when they are up against an opponent that has the strength and power to destroy an entire planet with ease.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Not being able to get tired means that Juggernaut can fight for eternity on end, Vegeta can not. Juggs has faced opponents with far more physical power than Vegeta, and the only person that I can think of at this time that has moved Juggernaut is War Hulk.

Juggernaut is powered by a Mythical Being, not one of those weak ass Kais, but Cyttorak, which also gives him protection and allows him to fight even as just a skeleton. Hulk has the fastest and regeneration in Marvel, which means Vegeta will have a hard time to completely destroy Hulk.

Vegeta would only lose if he tried to destroy the planet, seeing as he needs oxygen, and his opponents don't. Further more, both Juggs and War II have far more strength than Vegeta ever will, so he can only damage them by means of Ki attacks, which he can't keep up forever.


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## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Not being able to get tired means that Juggernaut can fight for eternity on end, Vegeta can not.


Still, if his strength doesn't match up, Vegeta could end it quickly, and it wouldn't matter if Juggernaut can't get tired.



			
				Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Juggs has faced opponents with far more physical power than Vegeta, and the only person that I can think of at this time that has moved Juggernaut is War Hulk.


Care to explain how these opponents are stronger than Vegeta?



			
				Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Juggernaut is powered by a Mythical Being, not one of those weak ass Kais, but Cyttorak, which also gives him protection and allows him to fight even as just a skeleton. Hulk has the fastest and regeneration in Marvel, which means Vegeta will have a hard time to completely destroy Hulk.


Still not providing support to their strength and abilities. Have they ever done something like obliterate a planet, or defeated someone who could do that.



			
				Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Vegeta would only lose if he tried to destroy the planet, seeing as he needs oxygen, and his opponents don't.


The only reason I'm mentioning the ability of destroying a planet is to measure strength. You haven't provided evidence of their strength surpassing the ability to destroy a planet.



			
				Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Further more, both Juggs and War II have far more strength than Vegeta ever will, so he can only damage them by means of Ki attacks, which he can't keep up forever.


What evidence do you have of their strength? Vegeta can destroy a planet, have they ever done anything that matches up to that?


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

What proof do you have that Vegeta can destroy a planet? As far as I can recall, he never has destroyed one canon-wise.

And what part of _physical strength_ don't you get? DBZ characters are lucky to be class 40, both Hulk and Juggs are class 100 at the least.

There, proof of Hulk's strength far exceeding Vegeta's.


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## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

Here's some more for Hulk.

Cole's Chelsea move stalls over ?25m price

P.S. I don't know where to find a comprised list of Juggs feats. Sorry.


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## konflikti (Aug 10, 2006)

And War Hulk is on another level from that Hulk. And he's as far as I know the only thing to stop Juggs when he's in full-power.


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## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> What proof do you have that Vegeta can destroy a planet? As far as I can recall, he never has destroyed one canon-wise.
> 
> And what part of _physical strength_ don't you get? DBZ characters are lucky to be class 40, both Hulk and Juggs are class 100 at the least.
> 
> There, proof of Hulk's strength far exceeding Vegeta's.


Vegeta's powerlevel surpasses someone who can destroy a planet, thus showing his strength and power. That's why I asked before if The Hulk or Juggernaut have defeated anyone who could destroy a planet.



			
				konflikti said:
			
		

> And War Hulk is on another level from that Hulk. And he's as far as I know the only thing to stop Juggs when he's in full-power.


Maybe that's because he hasn't encountered anyone on the same level as Vegeta before.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Vegeta CAN'T lift a 150,000,000,000 mountain, DBZ's strength range isn't even CLOSE to that.

Frieza destroyed the planet with a ki attack specifically designed to destroy planets. Vegeta has never destroyed a planet.

You have no proof whatsoever that Vegeta's physical strength comes even _near_ Hulk's or Juggernaut's. I'm sure he can do quite a bit of damage with Ki, but pure physical strength has never been DBZ's strongpoint.

Besides, Powerlevels don't mean shit, especially not in cross-overs. Don't you notice that as the series progresses, they're not used anymore? They're hardly used in the manga, because they're inaccurate.


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## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Vegeta's powerlevel surpasses someone who can destroy a planet. Thus showing his strength and power. That's why I asked before if The Hulk or Juggernaut have defeated anyone who could destroy a planet.
> 
> *Btw, I'm sure Vegeta has the strength to lift what the Hulk is lifting in that picture.*



Pardon the vulgarity of the sentence that's about to be typed but...

Highly. Fucking. Doubtful.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Hulk destroying an asteroide TWICE the size of Earth with a single punch.


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## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Pardon the vulgarity of the sentence that's about to be typed but...
> 
> Highly. Fucking. Doubtful.


Vegeta's strength far surpasses the strength of someone who can destroy an entire planet with a single finger. I have no, pardon the vulgarity, *Fucking* doubt in my mind that he can lift whatever The Hulk is lifting in that picture.



			
				Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Hulk destroying an asteroide TWICE the size of Earth with a single punch.


Any proof that it's twice the size of Earth?


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## konflikti (Aug 10, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Vegeta's strength far surpasses the strength of someone who can destroy an entire planet with a single finger. I have no, pardon the vulgarity, *Fucking* doubt in my mind that he can lift whatever the hell that is.



Vegeta cannot destroy planet with a finger. He can destroy planet with a beam shot from finger. Has the finger anything to do with it? No, it just sounds like he is hardcore that way. He cannot break a planet with physical attack.


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## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

Ki blast =/= lifting strength. Know the difference.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Frieza destroyed the fucking planet with KI, not physical strength. No one in DBZ can destroy a planet with just a finger, they have to use a ki attack that might come from the finger.

Cole's Chelsea move stalls over ?25m price Proof of the asteroid being twice the size of earth.

Stop being a god damned fanboy.


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## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Frieza destroyed the fucking planet with KI, not physical strength. No one in DBZ can destroy a planet with just a finger, they have to use a ki attack that might come from the finger.
> 
> Cole's Chelsea move stalls over ?25m price Proof of the asteroid being twice the size of earth.
> 
> Stop being a god damned fanboy.


Chill out. I'm not being a fanboy. I'm just trying to get evidence to understand Juggernaut's and The Hulk's abilities, because before I started debating, none was provided.

Anyways, that's the evidence I was looking for. Thank you for clearing it up. Although, at this point, I think Vegeta's Ki exceeds or atleast matches The Hulk's strength. Needing the help of an "anti-magnetic jet pack" to destroy it. I'm sure Vegeta could have destroyed it with a single blast of his Final Flash.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Ur, Hulk needed the anti-magnetic jetpack to escape Earth's gravity fully and get into space to destroy the asteroid.

But now let's see some evidence on Vegeta's side.


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## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> But now let's see some evidence on Vegeta's side.


If Cell didn't take the grunt of it, his Final Flash would have easily destroyed Earth. 

Even during the time he was fighting Goku, he used the Galick Gun to destroy Earth, which is one of his weakest attacks. Goku countered it with his Kamehameha, so it didn't hit.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Correction, he _claimed_ it could destroy the earth, just as Cell _claimed_ to be able to destroy the solar system. Both were arrogant characters, which is a characteristic known for overestimation of oneself.


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## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Correction, he _claimed_ it could destroy the earth, just as Cell _claimed_ to be able to destroy the solar system. Both were arrogant characters, which is a characteristic known for overestimation of oneself.


If he didn't have to deal with Goku, he could have easily destroyed Earth. He's the prince of Saiyans, there is no doubt in my mind that he could do it.

Frieza can destroy planets with ease, yet could not handle a Super Saiyan 1. By the end of the Buu saga, Vegeta's strength far exceeds Frieza's considering he reached Super Saiyain 2. Destroying a planet is nothing for him. Kid Buu was destroying one after another like it was nothing, while Vegeta put up a descent fight against him. He can easily destroy a planet.


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## SoulTaker (Aug 10, 2006)

And Goku wasn't even sure Vegeta could destroy Earth,he had to think about blocking it before hand.It really depends on War Hulks healing factor,if Hulk can take on a planet buster than he wins this.Classic Juggernaut is pretty much omnipotent so I don't see how he loses.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

He has never shown to destroy a planet.

Frieza used an attack SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to destroy a planet's core. And once again, DBZ strength is not impressive, only their Ki increases that much, not their strength, nor their speed.


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## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> He has never shown to destroy a planet.
> 
> Frieza used an attack SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to destroy a planet's core. And once again, DBZ strength is not impressive, only their Ki increases that much, not their strength, nor their speed.


Lol, you're really going to argue that even though a Super Saiyan 1 can defeat Frieza (someone who can destroy a planet with ease), a Super Saiyan 2 cannot destroy a single planet?

This is making me want to create a whole new thread with a poll, asking whether or not you think Vegeta (someone who far exceeds Frieza) can destroy a single planet.

I can't believe this shit.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Show me proof that Vegeta can destroy a planet. Scans, what ever you will.

Don't try to prove it with powerlevels, they are obsolete and inaccurate.

Besides, you're trying to say that, if Frieza can do it, so can Vegeta. By this logic, Vegeta must be able regenerate limbs, just like Piccolo and Cell.


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## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Show me proof that Vegeta can destroy a planet. Scans, what ever you will.
> 
> Don't try to prove it with powerlevels, they are obsolete and inaccurate.


It's common sense in the world of DBZ. If a character can defeat another character that can destroy a planet, that character can destroy a planet as well. It almost makes me laugh to think that Vegeta Super Saiyan 2 cannot destroy a single planet.



			
				Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Besides, you're trying to say that, if Frieza can do it, so can Vegeta. By this logic, Vegeta must be able regenerate limbs, just like Piccolo and Cell.


Regenerating a limb and using a Ki attack are completely different things. Most fighters in the DBZ universe are easily capable of a Ki attack. And when a fighter is stronger than another fighter, the abilities that they both are capable of increase in the stronger fighter.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

But since War II and Juggernaut do not come from the DBZ world, such logic is negligible.

Besides, defeating another character might not be a sign of mere strength, but more so about technique and tactic. It's like Enel vs. Luffy, Luffy only won because rubber doesn't conduct electricity.

But you still haven't shown me any proof to back-up your claims.


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## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

I would really love to see this instant in which Frieza destroyed a planet with ease.

Oh, and don't point me to the Bardock's special....


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Bardock's special isn't canon, anyway.


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## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> But since War II and Juggernaut do not come from the DBZ world, such logic is negligible.


No it's not because it's only being used to compare characters *within* the DBZverse (Vegeta and Frieza).


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## Psysalis (Aug 10, 2006)

But freeza did destroy the planet anyways right...in the actuall episodes and manga they did prove that


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

But that still doesn't proove that Vegeta can. He has only claimed to be able so, but never did so.


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## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Bardock's special isn't canon, anyway.



I was debating with someone recently who treated it as if it was.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Specials and movies =/= canon

Same goes for things in the anime, like Vegeta destroying that planet.


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## CrazyMoronX (Aug 10, 2006)

Draw.

Vegeta cannot hurt either of his opponents, and they cannot hurt him, unless they got lucky.


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## konflikti (Aug 10, 2006)

CrazyMoronX said:
			
		

> Draw.
> 
> Vegeta cannot hurt either of his opponents, and they cannot hurt him, unless they got lucky.



They might detroy the planet and Vegeta would suffocate. But that's the only way unless Vegeta totally screws up.


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## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> But that still doesn't proove that Vegeta can. He has only claimed to be able so, but never did so.


Vegeta is too proud and honorable to lie about something like that. If he said he would... he could.


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## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

This is what I said to someone when they asked me why I think Vegeta wasn't able to destroy Earth during the Vegeta saga.



			
				Keollyn said:
			
		

> Because nothing before him has shown to, nor came close. You can't go around believing the _grandiose_ statements of a character without any previous evidence that would remotely hint to that ability.
> 
> Let's say that I military pressed 400 pounds. Now I go to a friend and tell him that I'm able to military press 1-ton. How do I go from 400 to 2,240 pounds with no gradual evidence that I can? In this case, people use Roshi's moon busting as the "400 pounds" and Vegeta's supposed Earth busting blast as the "1-ton"
> 
> It's to big of a jump with no evidence in between to gauge that accurately. So until he actually DOES it, it stands at nothing more than Vegeta being so furious that he prevaricated a bit. Anger does make you say things you don't mean. Ask the human race that.



And I pretty much stand by that.


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## kapsi (Aug 10, 2006)

Vegeta wins with one blast.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

Hulk once smashed a planetoid twice the size of earth with his bare hands, and that was in one of his weaker forms, War Hulk is one of his strongest forms.

EDIT: Also War Hulk is powered by Celestial technology, which is drawing in energy from millions of galaxies, and Juggernaut is powered by Cytorrak, who is a Skyfather - level being. No DBZ character could so much as scratch them.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Already posted the scan, Mike.


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## kapsi (Aug 10, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Hulk destroying an asteroide TWICE the size of Earth with a single punch.


Looks like he destroyed it only because someone threw him very fast at that asteroid...a cannonball would do the same.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Can you proove your thoughts? I for one am more likely to believe incrediblehulk than you.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

kapsi said:
			
		

> Looks like he destroyed it only because someone threw him very fast at that asteroid...a cannonball would do the same.



W....T....F....

You're saying a fucking CANNONBALL would destroy an asteroid twice the size of Earth?


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## kapsi (Aug 10, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Can you proove your thoughts? I for one am more likely to believe incrediblehulk than you.


He thinks it. There's a bubble left and down to the Hulk, it's his thoughts.



> W....T....F....
> 
> You're saying a fucking CANNONBALL would destroy an asteroid twice the size of Earth?


If a not so big green man can do it by flying into the asteroid... In reality he would probably dig a hole into it and got stuck. Same with lifting a mountain...it's too unrealistic to be taken seriously. In DBZ at least they use energy blast things.


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## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

Oh yes, _energy blast things_ are completely realistic and should be taken seriously.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Vegeta wins easily.He's way too fast for either Juggs or Hulk to see let alone hit.And he blasts them off the planet which would probably kill Hulk and BFR Juggs.And for all those arguing he can't destroy a planet where's your proof?He said he could and nothing disproved he couldn't.Goku doubted he could but he was new to that level of power so he wasn't sure what he could or couldn't do.Master Roshi destroyed the moon way back in the begining and we know that his strength was around 139 and that the Kamahamaha raised his power.The moon is 1/6 the size of earth.Even if the power scaling isn't linear(which there's no proof that it isn't)Vegeta is more than 100x as strong as Roshi and his power also rises when he uses Galick ho he could easily destroy the planet.


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## konflikti (Aug 10, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Even if the power scaling isn't linear(which there's no proof that it isn't)Vegeta is more than 100x as strong as Roshi and his power also rises when he uses Galick ho he could easily destroy the planet.


 
If Vegeta destroys the planet, he dies. Hulk and Juggs don't die. To be honest, I don't think Hulk and Juggs can catch Vegeta, unless he does something really stupid. But only thing that even remotely rivals these guys in survivability is Buu in DBZ universe. They just won't die.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

GBE of the moon is 3 orders of magnitude less than that of the earth, guy.

And the burden of proof is on you to prove he can, we don't have to disprove it.

Not to mention Hulk can survive in space, especially with Celestial technology, and Juggernaut could just walk back to earth since he doesn't need a solid surface to walk on. And they're not 'too slow', the first thing Vegeta is going to do is go HtH, where he gets splattered to gooey red paste with one punch.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 10, 2006)

_Vegeta's powerlevel surpasses someone who can destroy a planet. Thus showing his strength and power._

Not his physical strength.

_Btw, I'm sure Vegeta has the strength to lift what the Hulk is lifting in that picture._

You must be seriously joking.


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## Nexas (Aug 10, 2006)

WTF. Why is Vegeta winning!?! Even if he destroyed the planet, Hulk and Jugs would survive, and Vegeta would die from lack of oxygen.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 10, 2006)

_Why is Vegeta winning!?!_

Popularity.


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## Sasori (Aug 10, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Why is Vegeta winning!?!_
> 
> 'tards.



Fixed


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## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> If Vegeta destroys the planet, he dies. Hulk and Juggs don't die. To be honest, I don't think Hulk and Juggs can catch Vegeta, unless he does something really stupid. But only thing that even remotely rivals these guys in survivability is Buu in DBZ universe. They just won't die.


I never said he would destroy the planet just that he could.


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## Phenomenol (Aug 10, 2006)

It Should have been Brolly Vs. The Hulk and Juggernaut and Brolly would kick their ASSES all over the place...

Vegeta could still win if he fights one at a time..


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## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> GBE of the moon is 3 orders of magnitude less than that of the earth, guy.
> 
> And the burden of proof is on you to prove he can, we don't have to disprove it.
> 
> Not to mention Hulk can survive in space, especially with Celestial technology, and Juggernaut could just walk back to earth since he doesn't need a solid surface to walk on. And they're not 'too slow', the first thing Vegeta is going to do is go HtH, where he gets splattered to gooey red paste with one punch.


Yes they are too slow.Spider-man has beaten both these guys because he was too fast and if he can do it Vegeta could.They get blasted off the planet at the start of the match.Based on what we've seen vastly lesser characters do it's more logical that he could destroy the planet than not.And he made a statement that in no way was contradicted.Goku being new to this level of power had no idea wheither or not ZVegeta could destroy the planet.And unless your saying that it would take more than 100x the power to blow up the earth than it would the moon the point is mute..


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 10, 2006)

_It Should have been Brolly Vs. The Hulk and Juggernaut and Brolly would kick their ASSES all over the place..._

Not really.

I don't know much about War Hulk, but Broly won't be able to override Juggernaut's durability, thanks to Cyttorak. It's arguable that nothing in the DBZverse can probably harm Juggernaut.

Of course, unless Classic Juggernaut is not used.


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## Phenomenol (Aug 10, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _It Should have been Brolly Vs. The Hulk and Juggernaut and Brolly would kick their ASSES all over the place..._
> 
> Not really.
> 
> ...




I agree that Juggernaut is UNSTOPPABLE, he gets no physical damage!!

Brolly would blast the Juggernaut somewhere else So could Vegeta ! Do you need me to post scans how Spiderman beat Juggernaut and how he was trapped under a building for Months? I can name far lesser characters who have Smoked the juggernaut.


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## konflikti (Aug 10, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> I agree that Juggernaut is UNSTOPPABLE, he gets no physical damage!!
> 
> Brolly would blast the Juggernaut somewhere else So could Vegeta ! Do you need me to post scans how Spiderman beat Juggernaut and how he was trapped under a building for Months? I can name far lesser characters who have Smoked the juggernaut.



They disabled Juggernaut for a while. Show me when Juggernaut was actually defeated.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 10, 2006)

_Brolly would blast the Juggernaut somewhere else So could Vegeta ! Do you need me to post scans how Spiderman beat Juggernaut and how he was trapped under a building for Months? I can name far lesser characters who have Smoked the juggernaut._

Yep. But outright kill Classic Juggernaut?

_Show me when Juggernaut was actually defeated._

Only time I can think of is when Onslaught ripped out Cyttorak's ruby from Juggernaut's chest and imprisoned Cain into it.


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## Phenomenol (Aug 10, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Yep. But outright kill Classic Juggernaut?
> 
> *Nobody and I mean NOBODY can KILL the Juggernaut, only way for Vegeta or Brolly to win is BLAST him of the Damn planet.*
> 
> Only time I can think of is when Onslaught ripped out Cyttorak's ruby from Juggernaut's chest and imprisoned Cain into it.



Juggernaut was disabled like Konflikti said, Spiderman barried him under a ton of Rubble and it took 8 months for Juggernaut to come out.

Vegeta wins.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Aug 10, 2006)

who gives a shit, i honestly think Marvel characters are highly overrated on the power scale...but i dont give a shit...


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 10, 2006)

_Vegeta wins._

If to win the battle means a ring-out, yes.

But to the death?

Vegeta would die from exhaustion.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 10, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Vegeta wins._
> 
> If to win the battle means a ring-out, yes.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of this!!!


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Yes they are too slow.Spider-man has beaten both these guys because he was too fast and if he can do it Vegeta could.They get blasted off the planet at the start of the match.Based on what we've seen vastly lesser characters do it's more logical that he could destroy the planet than not.And he made a statement that in no way was contradicted.Goku being new to this level of power had no idea wheither or not ZVegeta could destroy the planet.And unless your saying that it would take more than 100x the power to blow up the earth than it would the moon the point is mute..



Spider-man never tried to duke it out with them, he spent 99% of the fight running for his life, and he would have been killed by the Hulk's thunderclap if it wasn't prevented by another guy.

EDIT: and 3 orders of magnitude is in the area of 1000 times.


----------



## kapsi (Aug 10, 2006)

Wasn't Juggernaut stopped and almost killed by Hulk? Anyone strong can do that then.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

No, that was War Hulk, who was enhanced by Celestial technology and channeling the power of thousands of galaxies.


----------



## kapsi (Aug 10, 2006)

Very impressive. Spiderman beat them?


----------



## Havoc (Aug 10, 2006)

kapsi said:
			
		

> Very impressive. Spiderman beat them?



Yes, but when taken out of context it's a lot more impressive than it actually was.  Also the Hulk Spiderman "beat" wasn't War Hulk.


----------



## Bro Tai Jr. (Aug 10, 2006)

Well I am not familiar with War Hulk, could someone update me?


----------



## Bro Tai Jr. (Aug 10, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> If Vegeta destroys the planet, he dies. Hulk and Juggs don't die. To be honest, I don't think Hulk and Juggs can catch Vegeta, unless he does something really stupid. But only thing that even remotely rivals these guys in survivability is Buu in DBZ universe. They just won't die.



I don't get it, since when do the Hulk and Mr. Jug not need air? If you destroy the planet there is no air. Also, think back to the Buu saga when he killed himself to kill Buu he was only, what Super Sayan 2 and he put a huge dent in the planet? Now he can go SSJ4 or higher, I am not sure I haven't watch the series since he went SSJ4 anyways, now if he did that he probably would destroy the planet and all the stuff with in like 100+ miles I doubt the Hulk and Mr. Jug could withstand that.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> GBE of the moon is 3 orders of magnitude less than that of the earth, guy.
> 
> And the burden of proof is on you to prove he can, we don't have to disprove it.
> 
> Not to mention Hulk can survive in space, especially with Celestial technology, and Juggernaut could just walk back to earth since he doesn't need a solid surface to walk on. And they're not 'too slow', the first thing Vegeta is going to do is go HtH, where he gets splattered to gooey red paste with one punch.



I disagree. I do not doubt that if you're including ss4 Vegeta (this thread does say 'any') then Vegeta would be packing class 100+ strength since he is just as strong as Goku and Goku could lift a city. 

Now before you go beserk, I'm not saying Vegeta will win this fight (nor am I saying that he could match in physical strength with War Hulk). He, for one, cannot kill Juggs, he _might_ be able to kill Hulk if he just powers up a blast for like a week or something but not Jugs with that broken shield


----------



## Nexas (Aug 10, 2006)

@BroTaiJr
Because of Cyttorak, the Juggernaut does not need to sleep, eat, drink, or breath. Jugs is also incredibly durable:
​Don't know about the Hulk. Never read much of him.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

A quote from Wikipedia to help support the fact that Vegeta can destroy a planet.



> Galick Gun
> 
> A beam similar to the Kamehameha. Vegeta charges the attack similarly to the Kamehameha, but Vegeta releases it with both hands faced open (while the Kamehameha requires the fingers to be curled). The result is a concentrated, fuchsia-colored energy beam from his hands and body. Vegeta uses this against Goku in their first fight during the Saiyan Saga. When Goku countered the Galick Gun by Kamehameha, Vegeta noted that the two skills are very similar. Translated as Garlic Gun or Galick Gun. In keeping with the Saiyan pun on vegetables, it is named after the vegetable "garlic" (note that "ga-rikku" is the Japanese way of saying garlic). *Capable of destroying small planets if enough power is put into it*.


And that's just the Galick Gun, which is one of his weaker attacks.


			
				Keollyn said:
			
		

> I would really love to see this instant in which Frieza destroyed a planet with ease.
> 
> Oh, and don't point me to the Bardock's special....


If you aren't aware of Frieza being able to destroy planets with ease using a ki blast generated from the tip of his index finger, then I don't think you should even be in this thread.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

blue.rellik said:
			
		

> I disagree. I do not doubt that if you're including ss4 Vegeta (this thread does say 'any') then Vegeta would be packing class 100+ strength since he is just as strong as Goku and Goku could lift a city.
> 
> Now before you go beserk, I'm not saying Vegeta will win this fight (nor am I saying that he could match in physical strength with War Hulk). He, for one, cannot kill Juggs, he _might_ be able to kill Hulk if he just powers up a blast for like a week or something but not Jugs with that broken shield



War Hulk was powered by CELESTIAL TECHNOLOGY drawing energy from entire galaxies!


----------



## Supa Swag (Aug 10, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> A quote from Wikipedia to help support the fact that Vegeta can destroy a planet.
> 
> 
> And that's just the Galick Gun, which is one of his weaker attacks.



Aside from Big Bang and Final Flash, whats stronger?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Laz-E-Boy said:
			
		

> Aside from Big Bang and Final Flash, whats stronger?


Desperate Attack, Atmoic Blast, and Final Shine...


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

He said "Aside from".


----------



## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He said "Aside from".


I know...


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> War Hulk was powered by CELESTIAL TECHNOLOGY drawing energy from entire galaxies!



Please point out where I said that Vegeta will 100% kill Hulk


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> A quote from Wikipedia to help support the fact that Vegeta can destroy a planet.
> 
> 
> And that's just the Galick Gun, which is one of his weaker attacks.
> ...



If you think Earth is a small planet then I don't think you need to be in ANY discussion at all until you actually head back to school and learn this.

The fact that Frieza didn't show us this "ease of destruction" would pretty much make it hard to prove that Frieza destroys planet with ease. Is this clear enough, or should I explain it in a term even someone like you, who thinks Earth is a small planet, would understand?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

Well compared to the average size of planets in our solar system, and the average size of extrasolar planets that have been discovered, Earth is a small planet.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

That much I know, but Earth is still not a small planet by any stretch. But really, unless we have actual proof to that wiki's claims, the fact that Vegeta can't bust Earth at that time still stands.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 10, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> That much I know, but Earth is still not a small planet by any stretch.



Actually on average it _is_ small. It's just that even the smallest planet is still huge


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

Alright, my fault. We'll stick to Earth being a small planet. But how does this prove he can bust Earth?


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 10, 2006)

If Frieza could destroy Namek then I think Vegeta could destroy Earth if he focused his power


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

I'm not talking about any point onward from Frieza's saga. I'm talking about Galick Gun and Vegeta saga. Galick Gun couldn't bust Earth with Vegeta's level of power at that point.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> If you think Earth is a small planet then I don't think you need to be in ANY discussion at all until you actually head back to school and learn this.


When did I say Earth was a small planet (even though it is)? I stated his Galick Gun could destroy a small planet, but followed that by saying it is one of his weaker attacks.



			
				Keollyn said:
			
		

> The fact that Frieza didn't show us this "ease of destruction" would pretty much make it hard to prove that Frieza destroys planet with ease. Is this clear enough, or should I explain it in a term even someone like you, who thinks Earth is a small planet, would understand?


... You're still denying the fact that Frieza can destroy a planet with ease? 

Did you even watch the show?  

Wikipedia quote:


> Death Ball
> 
> An attack used by Freeza (and in the Dragonball Z movies by his brother Coola). A spark of ki lights on the index finger, and once enough energy is gathered this spark may grow to the size of a small moon. When ready, this "Death Ball" is thrown towards the target. Typically this attack is used to destroy planets or as a last-ditch effort to kill an opponent.


*Death Ball*


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

Wow! The DBZ manga was in color?!


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> I'm not talking about any point onward from Frieza's saga. I'm talking about Galick Gun and Vegeta saga. Galick Gun couldn't bust Earth with Vegeta's level of power at that point.


Where's your evidence that he can't.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 10, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *Keollyn*
> I'm not talking about any point onward from Frieza's saga. I'm talking about Galick Gun and Vegeta saga. Galick Gun couldn't bust Earth with Vegeta's level of power at that point.



That is crap Keollyn and you know it, Master Roshi was blowing up the moon with a powerlevel of 160 or higher and your telling me Vegeta could not destroy eart with his most powerfu lattack at the time?  Not to mention he said that he was going to "destroy thr planet to dust" Do not argue with waht the manga said.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Spider-man never tried to duke it out with them, he spent 99% of the fight running for his life, and he would have been killed by the Hulk's thunderclap if it wasn't prevented by another guy.
> 
> EDIT: and 3 orders of magnitude is in the area of 1000 times.


Since the earth isn't actually 3 orders of magnitude bigger than the moon this is meaningless.It's actually less than 1.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Where's your evidence that he can't.



Burden of proof is on you.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> That is crap Keollyn and you know it, Master Roshi was blowing up the moon with a powerlevel of 160 or higher and your telling me Vegeta could not destroy eart with his most powerfu lattack at the time? Not to mention he said that he was going to "destroy thr planet to dust" Do not argue with waht the manga said.


I completely agree.Unless anyone can prove that he can't when he said he could then we go by his statements.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Where's your evidence that he can't.



The evidence that he DIDN'T. Now, let me ask you... Where's your evidence that he can?


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Burden of proof is on you.


Actually it's on you since your trying to disprove something that he said he could do.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> The evidence that he DIDN'T. Now, let me ask you... Where's your evidence that he can?


He didn't because Goku stopped simple as that.My proof is that mater Roshi who is more than a hundred times weaker than Vegeta blew up the moon which is a sixth of the size of earth.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Actually it's on you since your trying to disprove something that he said he could do.



Do you understand the burden of proof? I don't have to disprove it, you have to prove it.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> He didn't because Goku stopped simple as that.My proof is that mater Roshi who is more than a hundred times weaker than Vegeta blew up the moon which is a sixth of the size of earth.



Just in case you missed it...



			
				Keollyn said:
			
		

> Because nothing before him has shown to, nor came close. You can't go around believing the _grandiose_ statements of a character without any previous evidence that would remotely hint to that ability.
> 
> Let's say that I military pressed 400 pounds. Now I go to a friend and tell him that I'm able to military press 1-ton with some more training. How do I go from 400 to 2,240 pounds with no gradual evidence that I can? In this case, people use Roshi's moon busting as the "400 pounds" and Vegeta's supposed Earth busting blast as the "1-ton"
> 
> It's to big of a jump with no evidence in between to gauge that accurately. So until he actually DOES it, it stands at nothing more than Vegeta being so furious that he prevaricated a bit. Anger does make you say things you don't mean. Ask the human race that.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> He didn't because Goku stopped simple as that.My proof is that mater Roshi who is more than a hundred times weaker than Vegeta blew up the moon which is a sixth of the size of earth.



1. Powers levels are not a linear scale.

2. The moon's GBE is 3 orders of magnitude lower than the Earth's.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

I've had enough of people doubting DBZ when they something and argue with no evidence supporting their arguments but just accept what other manga characters say as fact.People believe that Saint Seya can go light speed from what someone said,people believe that Dark Schneider can create thousands of sheild a second based on what people said but when someone from DB says something and there is evidence based on what weaker characters could do people say they can't.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Just in case you missed it...


Roshi blowing up the moon is a comparable feat whether you like it or not.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Do you understand the burden of proof? I don't have to disprove it, you have to prove it.


Not when a character states something and other characters have done comparable feats.After that it's on you to use MANGA evidence to disprove it. And you and me have been through this before about you having a double standard about believing what people say.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 10, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> I've had enough of people doubting DBZ when they something and argue with no evidence supporting their arguments but just accept what other manga characters say as fact.People believe that Saint Seya can go light speed from what someone said,people believe that Dark Schneider can create thousands of sheild a second based on what people said but when someone from DB says something and there is evidence based on what weaker characters could do people say they can't.



Yep, I have actually watched Saint Seiya and not once have I seen a lightspeed feat, also Dark Schneider is an overrated bastard, I believe Keollyn was hyping this character up and So far I am not impressed.

I told you SuperBatman86, Too Many DBZ haters at this Forum they hate it because of it's popularity. Hell they probably hate Shonen jump Manga as well..


----------



## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Wow! The DBZ manga was in color?!


It doesn't have to be manga to be canon. Mostly everything until Dragonball GT is canon material that occured in the manga (including Frieza destroying planet Vegeta).


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> 1. Powers levels are not a linear scale.
> 
> 2. The moon's GBE is 3 orders of magnitude lower than the Earth's.


Who are you to say they arn't on a linear scale?Where's your proof?


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 10, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *Endless Mike*
> 1. Powers levels are not a linear scale



Thats garbage, the numbers DO mean something. Its quite possiblt the PEFECT and most SIMPLE way to gauge power since it assigned an actual number. Shame you can't see this way. and the EXACT difference between 14 million and 15 million is quite simple...its a million.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> It doesn't have to be manga to be canon. Mostly everything until Dragonball GT is canon material that occured in the manga (including Frieza destroying planet Vegeta).



Umm... since you love your wiki articles so much, how about you wiki "Dragon Ball canon" and then get back to me on that.

Edit: Wrong person. But still... wiki that article.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 10, 2006)

_Thats garbage, the numbers DO mean something. Its quite possiblt the PEFECT and most SIMPLE way to gauge power since it assigned an actual number. Shame you can't see this way. and the EXACT difference between 14 million and 15 million is quite simple...its a million._

And the quality of the single digit 1 is what exactly, PL-wise?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Who are you to say they arn't on a linear scale?Where's your proof?



Farmer.

1/28th of the moon.

QED.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 10, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Thats garbage, the numbers DO mean something. Its quite possiblt the PEFECT and most SIMPLE way to gauge power since it assigned an actual number. Shame you can't see this way. and the EXACT difference between 14 million and 15 million is quite simple...its a million._
> 
> And the quality of the single digit 1 is what exactly, PL-wise?



OVERALL POWER! Strenght, speed etc...


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Thats garbage, the numbers DO mean something. Its quite possiblt the PEFECT and most SIMPLE way to gauge power since it assigned an actual number. Shame you can't see this way. and the EXACT difference between 14 million and 15 million is quite simple...its a million.



You've just copy - and - pasted this post from your previous posts, and it's not anymore true now than it was then.

Numbers are only meaningful when they actually have a basis in fact. There is no basis for DBZ power levels, other than "higher number = stronger fighter".

It's useless for cross - universe comparisons.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Farmer.
> 
> 1/28th of the moon.
> 
> QED.


If the farmer could do a Kamahama he would I think he could destroy 1/28 of the moon.


----------



## Ichiro Miyata (Aug 10, 2006)

Vegeta wins this


----------



## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

By the end of the Buu saga, Vegeta's Ki *FAR* surpasses Frieza's. Since Frieza used his Ki to destroy planets, naturaly this means Vegeta has the capability of destroying planets aswell. 

It's as simple as that.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You've just copy - and - pasted this post from your previous posts, and it's not anymore true now than it was then.
> 
> Numbers are only meaningful when they actually have a basis in fact. There is no basis for DBZ power levels, other than "higher number = stronger fighter".
> 
> It's useless for cross - universe comparisons.


But not when it's used to show the difference in stength between 3 people of the same universe which we are using it for.That's why it was made,to show the difference in strength between 2 characters.Notice how no one has tried to give Hulk or Juggs a pl.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 10, 2006)

_If the farmer could do a Kamahama he would I think he could destroy 1/28 of the moon._

He had a power level of 5. He should pull it off, from what power level states.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

Despite the fact that he displayed no powers, and every Kamehameha ever seen in the original Dragonball (except for that one) was nowhere near that powerful?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 10, 2006)

_Notice how no one has tried to give Hulk or Juggs a pl._

No one knows where to start.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> But not when it's used to show the difference in stength between 3 people of the same universe which we are using it for.That's why it was made,to show the difference in strength between 2 characters.Notice how no one has tried to give Hulk or Juggs a pl.



Your flawed ideas are that the PL is equal to the actual amount of damage they can do, and there's no evidence for this.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _If the farmer could do a Kamahama he would I think he could destroy 1/28 of the moon._
> 
> He had a power level of 5. He should pull it off, from what power level states.


That's my take on atleast.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

Tai-Jutsu Master said:
			
		

> Vegeta wins this



Proof? Evidence? Reasoning? Anything?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 10, 2006)

_Proof? Evidence? Reasoning? Anything?_

If the battle is to be won by ring-out, then Vegeta wins.

If the battle is to be won by death to either party, Vegeta exhausts himself in the long run.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Your flawed ideas are that the PL is equal to the actual amount of damage they can do, and there's no evidence for this.


You flawed idea is that amount of damage isn't dictated by power level when everything says otherwise.Why do you think power levels were invented.To show that when someone at a certain power can cause so much damage that equal or stronger characters can do the same or more.


----------



## Bro Tai Jr. (Aug 10, 2006)

Ok, everyone, Freeza can destroy a small planet easily, no buts about it, he is strong and he can do it. The point is that Vegeta is not like 50 times as strong as Freeza now, so he can destroy a large planet. Think back to the Buu saga when he killed himself to kill Buu he was only, what Super Sayan 2 and he put a huge dent in the planet? Now he can go SSJ4 or higher, I am not sure I haven't watch the series since he went SSJ4 anyways, now if he did that he probably would destroy the planet and all the stuff with in like 100+ miles. End of conversation about Vegeta being able or not being able to destroy a world.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Proof? Evidence? Reasoning? Anything?_
> 
> If the battle is to be won by ring-out, then Vegeta wins.
> 
> If the battle is to be won by death to either party, Vegeta exhausts himself in the long run.



You're forgetting that Juggernaut doesn't need a solid surface to walk on.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> You flawed idea is that amount of damage isn't dictated by power level when everything says otherwise.Why do you think power levels were invented.To show that when someone at a certain power can cause so much damage that equal or stronger characters can do the same or more.



No, it was just a system to give a rough idea of how much stronger characters were than each other. The actual observed damage compared to the PL is inconsistent.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Umm... since you love your wiki articles so much, how about you wiki "Dragon Ball canon" and then get back to me on that.
> 
> Edit: Wrong person. But still... wiki that article.


Well I did just that, and found this little statement:



> These levels of canon are closely stacked: there are almost no instances of events in the manga not appearing in the anime


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

Which is irrelevant, since we're not talking about manga scenes that weren't in the anime, we're talking about anime scenes that weren't in the manga.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> No, it was just a system to give a rough idea of how much stronger characters were than each other. The actual observed damage compared to the PL is inconsistent.


No it's not.When is the damage not equivalant to power level?


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 10, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Well I did just that, and found this little statement:



Thus you need to show me where Frieza destroyed a planet other than Namek IN THE MANGA. Once you do, I'll concede.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You've just copy - and - pasted this post from your previous posts, and it's not anymore true now than it was then.
> 
> Numbers are only meaningful when they actually have a basis in fact. There is no basis for DBZ power levels, other than "higher number = stronger fighter".
> 
> It's useless for cross - universe comparisons.


Not useless though when comparing fighters within the DBZverse (Vegeta and Roshi).


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 10, 2006)

It is an adaption.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 10, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Thus you need to show me where Frieza destroyed a planet other than Namek IN THE MANGA. Once you do, I'll concede.


Fine, give me a while.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You've just copy - and - pasted this post from your previous posts, and it's not anymore true now than it was then.
> 
> Numbers are only meaningful when they actually have a basis in fact. There is no basis for DBZ power levels, other than "higher number = stronger fighter".
> 
> It's useless for cross - universe comparisons.



I know what the hell I wrote...

If we go by the numbers alone your argument is then shot to hell. THATS why you don't want to use them. For example,You want to go by feats despite the fact that supes has been around alot longer, has faaaarrrr and way many more appearances and is an american hero. Ie the stories that supes appears in allows his feats to be shown more. Example were never going to see Goku lift an ocean liner or even attempt to, WHY? Because Goku just isn't a typical super hero, he doesn't typically go around rescuing people and when he does fight he uses martial arts and and doesn't lift huge objects to lob at people. He doesn't fly into space to take on gaint machine and doomsday weapons. Thats NOT GOKU and thats not the way Dragonball stories work. So you go by thre number of feats to give Supes AUTOMATIC advantage which is fine. But then you want to throw out the power level argument which is a BIG part of Dragonball lore because it gives people who choose Goku an advantage. As for your not relaible garbage, of course they ARE realible its just that after Trunks appears we no loinger have any poffiual numbers. The officila numbers are just that OFFICIAL. So there is no point in arguing about.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> No it's not.When is the damage not equivalant to power level?



Farmer.

Vegeta's suicide.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> *snip*



I see one big appeal to motive fallacy, but no actual arguments.....


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 10, 2006)

Because you can not Refute it and it is the truth.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

I'm the one who debunked your argument, and you're not providing any arguments against it, you're just resorting to appeal to motive fallacies.

By all rights, you should be banned for using fallacies like that.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 10, 2006)

You did not debunk anything you just have no answer for what's at the table.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 10, 2006)

Farmer.

Vegeta's suicide.

Picollo Daimao and Picollo Jr.'s attacks.

You do know that Toriyama dropped power levels after the Freiza saga because they made no sense, right?


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 11, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Farmer.
> 
> Vegeta's suicide.
> 
> ...



Power level is based on KI, Gokus power comes from KI so a power level gauges how much power he has in relation to other people in his universe. Ie a normal human in dragonball has a power level of 5.. So its very relevent.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 11, 2006)

Way to ignore what I just said.

Not to mention there's another inconsistency: The turtle had a power level of 0.001 or something like that, and he still beat up some guys in one episode, so if an average human has a PL of 5, they would be thousands of times stronger, and not lose.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 11, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Farmer.
> 
> Vegeta's suicide.
> 
> ...


If the farmer could do a kamahamaha I think he could do it.Vegeta controlled the attack the entire time and kept it focused until he died and had no more ki so the attack stopped.And what Picollo attacks?


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 11, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Farmer.
> 
> Vegeta's suicide.
> 
> ...


He dropped them because there was no longer a need for them since all the main characters except the androids could detect ki thus ridding the scouter of it's usefullness.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 11, 2006)

Do you have any idea how much power that would be?

Hint: It's more power than any attack ever seen in Dragonball except for Roshi's moon - buster.

And how can Vegeta 'control' the attack if he's dead? If it was really planetbusting +, as soon as he died it would go out of control and destroy the earth.

And the Picollo thing refers to the fact that both versions of Picollo were supposedly stronger than Roshi, but their most powerful attacks didn't do anywhere near as much damage.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 11, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Do you have any idea how much power that would be?
> 
> Hint: It's more power than any attack ever seen in Dragonball except for Roshi's moon - buster.
> 
> ...


He wasn't dead DURING the attack.He died arter the attack because he had no energy left.You mean the Piccolo that waved his hand and destroyed a city or the Piccolo that blew th moon up with ease?Area attacks normally aren't as strong as a beam because the same energy is sread out instead of concentrated.


----------



## Kuya (Aug 11, 2006)

Wow. I didn't think creating this thread would get so much attention. Feels good. Nice arguments on both sides everyone. Keep going.


----------



## Havoc (Aug 11, 2006)

Konoha Elite said:
			
		

> Wow. I didn't think creating this thread would get so much attention. Feels good. Nice arguments on both sides everyone. Keep going.




DBZ vs. Comic heroes general does this.


----------



## Kuya (Aug 11, 2006)

Havoc said:
			
		

> DBZ vs. Comic heroes general does this.



Oh. I see i see.


----------



## MegaManMario (Aug 11, 2006)

Can't Vegeta just destroy the planet, wouldn't that be an automatic win?


----------



## Havoc (Aug 11, 2006)

MegaManMario said:
			
		

> Can't Vegeta just destroy the planet, wouldn't that be an automatic win?




Read the other pages.


----------



## SoulTaker (Aug 11, 2006)

MegaManMario said:
			
		

> Can't Vegeta just destroy the planet, wouldn't that be an automatic win?



Juggernaut wouldn't be affected,and I doubt War Hulk would as well,quite frankly only Vegeta would die.Anyway,I'm with Keollyn on Vegeta not being a planet buster in his saga.When the protector of Earth has to think about protecting it that is a red flag.

Vegeta's speed blitz isn't really going to do him good since he can't really hurt Juggernaut,and lets not forget in DBZ hth is the first form of combat.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 11, 2006)

Fanboys ruin this forum.

The strongest thing Vegeta would be able to do is destroy the planet, but even if he _was_ capable of such a thing, it'd only work in his disadvantage.

And for the nub that hasn't seen DBGT, don't just assume that SSJ4 is stronger that SSJ2. By comparisson of feats, SSJ4 is weaker.


----------



## SoulTaker (Aug 11, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Fanboys ruin this forum.
> 
> The strongest thing Vegeta would be able to do is destroy the planet, but even if he _was_ capable of such a thing, it'd only work in his disadvantage.
> 
> And for the nub that hasn't seen DBGT, don't just assume that SSJ4 is stronger that SSJ2. By comparisson of feats, SSJ4 is weaker.



You're saying that even in SSJ 2 he isn't a planet buster?That is kind of wrong.When he fired the Final Flash at Cell it would have destroyed the planet if not for it being aimed at Cell,that was the statement of Krillin and Trunks.So lets not say that destroying a planet is not feasible for post-Freeza saga Vegeta.


----------



## Havoc (Aug 11, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:
			
		

> You're saying that even in SSJ 2 he isn't a planet buster?That is kind of wrong.When he fired the Final Flash at Cell it would have destroyed the planet if not for it being aimed at Cell,that was the statement of Krillin and Trunks.So lets not say that destroying a planet is not feasible for post-Freeza saga Vegeta.



No that's not what he's saying.


----------



## SoulTaker (Aug 11, 2006)

The "even if" part made it seem like he was a bit skeptical of Vegeta's ability to be a planet buster.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 11, 2006)

Vegeta never did bust a planet in canon. He claimed to be able to in the Saiyin Saga, he never did. Others claimed that he would with his Final Flash, he never did. Same with Cell, he claimed to be able to destroy the Solar System, never saw that happen, how did we?


----------



## SoulTaker (Aug 11, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Vegeta never did bust a planet in canon. He claimed to be able to in the Saiyin Saga, he never did. Others claimed that he would with his Final Flash, he never did. Same with Cell, he claimed to be able to destroy the Solar System, never saw that happen, how did we?



The difference between those instances is that only Vegeta and Cell stated it,the Final Flash was backed up by Trunks and Krillen.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 11, 2006)

Well, I have yet to see any omniscient and infallible DBZ character.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 11, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Fanboys ruin this forum.
> 
> The strongest thing Vegeta would be able to do is destroy the planet, but even if he _was_ capable of such a thing, it'd only work in his disadvantage.
> 
> And for the nub that hasn't seen DBGT, don't just assume that SSJ4 is stronger that SSJ2. By comparisson of feats, SSJ4 is weaker.



Well Goku performed a physical feat greater than any other form (aka lifting up a city). Against Super 17 they were just idiots:
*ss4 Goku and 17 punch up a bit*
Goku: Hmm I seem to be able to hurt you a bit like this way, I'll finish you with a kamehameha!
*Does a Kamehameha x100 or w/e which 17 absorbs and looks even stronger
Goku: Hmmmm that didn't seem right, I'll try it again to be sure
*Goku does another one which 17 absorbs and gets even stronger
Goku: Ok third time lucky
*Goku does another one and makes 17 far stronger than him*
Goku: Hmmmm. Something tells me that I should stop doing kamehamehas


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 11, 2006)

SSJ3 Goku feats seemed stronger than SSJ4 Goku feats, but that might just be me.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 11, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Thus you need to show me where Frieza destroyed a planet other than Namek IN THE MANGA. Once you do, I'll concede.


By the end of the Buu saga, Vegeta's Ki *FAR* surpasses Frieza's. Since Frieza used his Ki to destroy planets, naturaly this means Vegeta has the capability of destroying planets aswell. Simple as that. 

Now will you please leave this case to rest.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 11, 2006)

It doesn't show Frieza destroying a planet, try again.


----------



## Kagutsuchi (Aug 11, 2006)

Who cares if Vegeta can destroy planets? It doesn't matter cause Juggernaut would be unaffected.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 11, 2006)

They argue that Vegeta would have more physical power than the HULK and could thus defeat the two in hand to hand combat, or something like that.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 11, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> They argue that Vegeta would have more physical power than the HULK and could thus defeat the two in hand to hand combat, or something like that.


It's to support that Vegeta's *Ki* exceeds or atleast matches The Hulk's strength.



			
				Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> It doesn't show Frieza destroying a planet, try again.


We have it actually being shown in the anime. We have Dodoria, Zarbon, and Frieza stating it. He destroyed planet Namek, so we know he was capable of destroying planet Vegeta. If that's not enough evidence to convince you that Frieza destroyed it, than you can think whatever the hell you want, because apparently nothing gets through to you.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 11, 2006)

No, you argued that Vegeta could destroy a planet with *just* his finger.


----------



## Kagutsuchi (Aug 11, 2006)

So far, I don't think we've seen any serious business strength feats from Vegeta aside from being in that gravity machine.

It doesn't matter if his Ki can harm the Hulk, even if he dies Juggernaut is unstoppable.



> Don't you know who I am?! I'm the Juggernaut bitch!


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 11, 2006)

The Hulk has the greatest regen in Marvel, and War Hulk has armor from Apocalypse, I think.

But yeah, even one on one, it's overkill.


----------



## konflikti (Aug 11, 2006)

War-Hulk is most likely in a similar level of invulnerability as classic Juggs thanks to his Celestial enchantments. And probably somewhat stronger(physically stopping Juggernaut, which is supposedly impossible).

Another thing about him was Absorbing Man trying to absorb his sword and ended up exploding. Talk about elite gear. =D


----------



## Final Ultima (Aug 11, 2006)

Freeza did indeed destroy planet Vegeta, and Vegeta in the Saiya-jin saga probably did have enough power in his Garlic-hou to pierce through the Earth's core (seeing as they're both stated and not contradicted...in fact they're supported by the comments of other characters), but I don't see why this is being discussed anyway...it's not like his potential ability to destroy planets back in the Saiya-jin saga will help him in this fight.

And while this is a bit late...there's no way in hell that Vegeta has as much physical strength as Hulk, let alone War Hulk. Goku was shown to struggle with 40 tons in base form by the Boo saga, and if battle power is as linear a reading as people claim (for instance, according to Babidi's killa readings, Super Saiya-jin Goku was 3.75x stronger than Yakon, who was fighting reasonably well with base Goku), then there's no way, even with so many transformations...that any Dragon Ball character will be able to match 150 billion tons.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 11, 2006)

* One hundred and fifty billions tons.


----------



## Final Ultima (Aug 11, 2006)

Oops, yeah, edited.


----------



## Jin22 (Aug 11, 2006)

Final Ultima said:
			
		

> And while this is a bit late...there's no way in hell that Vegeta has as much physical strength as Hulk, let alone War Hulk. Goku was shown to struggle with 40 tons in base form by the Boo saga, and if battle power is as linear a reading as people claim (for instance, according to Babidi's killa readings, Super Saiya-jin Goku was 3.75x stronger than Yakon, who was fighting reasonably well with base Goku), then there's no way, even with so many transformations...that any Dragon Ball character will be able to match 150 billion tons.


Man oh man, I'm starting to get a headache every time I read something even similar to this in this forum.  

Not that I disagree of course.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 11, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> He wasn't dead DURING the attack.He died arter the attack because he had no energy left.You mean the Piccolo that waved his hand and destroyed a city or the Piccolo that blew th moon up with ease?Area attacks normally aren't as strong as a beam because the same energy is sread out instead of concentrated.



And after he died, the energy would have exploded and destroyed the earth if it really was that powerful. Energy doesn't just disappear.

And do you have any idea what you're saying? An attack powerful enough to destroy the moon would take a large chunk out of the earth, no matter how it was distributed.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 11, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And after he died, the energy would have exploded and destroyed the earth if it really was that powerful. Energy doesn't just disappear.
> 
> And do you have any idea what you're saying? An attack powerful enough to destroy the moon would take a large chunk out of the earth, no matter how it was distributed.


Actually no it wouldn't because there was no energy left that's why he died.Not neccesarily.When piccolo and roshie blow up the moon the have a more or less head on shot.But when the same attack is fired on earth at someone the curve of the earth prevents it from hiting straight.Unless they attack straight down or at a extremely steep angle a lot of the power only skims the planet.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 11, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Actually no it wouldn't because there was no energy left that's why he died.Not neccesarily.When piccolo and roshie blow up the moon the have a more or less head on shot.But when the same attack is fired on earth at someone the curve of the earth prevents it from hiting straight.Unless they attack straight down or at a extremely steep angle a lot of the power only skims the planet.



No energy left?

You have a lot of trouble with basic concepts.

Here, let me explain it:

According to you, Vegeta's suicide attack was planet - busting +.
But when it was released, it only created a crater a few kilometers wide.
If the attack was really that powerful, where did all the extra energy go? It couldn't just disappear.

And you are really not understanding the magnitude of these things. Unless you're arguing that 99.9999999999999% of the energy from Picollo's attacks was shot into space (something for which there is no evidence, and it wouldn't make sense from a plot perspective either), then what was shown was not anywhere near enough energy to destroy the moon.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 11, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> No energy left?
> 
> You have a lot of trouble with basic concepts.
> 
> ...


It was never "released".It was contained the entire time.It didn't expand after he died because it had no feul left.It's like fire as long as there's O2 it will burn but take it away and it goes out.Without Vegeta's continuos energy supply to feed it no longer had anything to use so it dissapated.Piccolo wasn't trying to do major damage to the planet he wanted to conquer it.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 11, 2006)

Final Ultima said:
			
		

> Freeza did indeed destroy planet Vegeta, and Vegeta in the Saiya-jin saga probably did have enough power in his Garlic-hou to pierce through the Earth's core (seeing as they're both stated and not contradicted...in fact they're supported by the comments of other characters), but I don't see why this is being discussed anyway...it's not like his potential ability to destroy planets back in the Saiya-jin saga will help him in this fight.
> 
> And while this is a bit late...there's no way in hell that Vegeta has as much physical strength as Hulk, let alone War Hulk. Goku was shown to struggle with 40 tons in base form by the Boo saga, and if battle power is as linear a reading as people claim (for instance, according to Babidi's killa readings, Super Saiya-jin Goku was 3.75x stronger than Yakon, who was fighting reasonably well with base Goku), then there's no way, even with so many transformations...that any Dragon Ball character will be able to match 150 billion tons.



We know Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta.... it's the HOW that we're concerned with. Did he mimic what he did to Namek, or did he just one shot it? The Bardock special or the Burori movie doesn't help as they're not canon.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 11, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> It was never "released".It was contained the entire time.It didn't expand after he died because it had no feul left.It's like fire as long as there's O2 it will burn but take it away and it goes out.Without Vegeta's continuos energy supply to feed it no longer had anything to use so it dissapated.Piccolo wasn't trying to do major damage to the planet he wanted to conquer it.



Energy doesn't just 'go out'. It has to go somewhere. Where did it go?


----------



## EvilMoogle (Aug 11, 2006)

Essentially, Juggernaut is the living embodiment of hate and Hulk is the living embodiment of anger.

If this is a fight to the death they win because nothing can kill them and eventually Vegeta will die of old age if nothing else.

If it's to KO, I'll buy that Vegeta has a chance, but it still seems very very slim to me.  Hulk's hit Silver Surfer with a thrown rock before so I think he can take Vegeta.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 11, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> No, you argued that Vegeta could destroy a planet with *just* his finger.


Uhh... I never said that... 

I said Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta using a Ki blast generated from the tip of his index finger. Vegeta, far surpassing Frieza in both strength and Ki by the end of the Buu saga, could easily accomplish pretty much anything Frieza has done, including being able to destroy a planet.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 11, 2006)

Is that so?


			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> Well I remember Freiza being able to blow up a planet with a single finger, and with pretty much no effort. By the end of the Buu saga, Vegata's power far surpasses Frieza's. So i'm pretty sure Vegeta is more than able to destroy a planet with ease (using this as a measure of strength).


You were saying?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 11, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Is that so?
> 
> You were saying?


How is that saying Vegeta can destroy a planet with his finger? It's just saying he can destroy a planet. Let me rephraze that first sentance for you though, I may have worded it poorly.



> Well I remember Freiza being able to blow up a planet *using a ki bomb generated with a single finger.*


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 11, 2006)

You were also arguing that Vegeta can match punches with Juggernaut and Hulk, and even lift what the Hulk was lifting.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 11, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> You were also arguing that Vegeta can match punches with Juggernaut and Hulk,


He can, but not in the litteral sense.



			
				Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> and even lift what the Hulk was lifting


I may have been mistaken on that. W/e though, I said that tiiime ago, it's not even what we're discussing currently.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 11, 2006)

The battle's pretty clear to me, Vegeta will die before either War II or Juggernaut does.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 11, 2006)

Final Ultima said:
			
		

> Freeza did indeed destroy planet Vegeta, and Vegeta in the Saiya-jin saga probably did have enough power in his Garlic-hou to pierce through the Earth's core (seeing as they're both stated and not contradicted...in fact they're supported by the comments of other characters), *but I don't see why this is being discussed anyway...it's not like his potential ability to destroy planets back in the Saiya-jin saga will help him in this fight.*


It's to provide support that Vegeta's Ki exceeds The Hulk's or Juggernaut's strength. As you stated, even base Vegeta was probably able to destroy the earth during the Saiyan saga. Now fast track through the whole DBZ series up to the point where he is Super Saiyan 2. Imagine the difference in genereal power between these two scenarios. I'm sure by the end of the Buu saga, he is able to accomplish far more than destroying a single planet.


----------



## SoulTaker (Aug 11, 2006)

Has Vegeta ever destroyed something twice as big as Earth?How is a planet busting attack going to get Juggernaut down and out for the count if he can regen from nothing?If Vegeta gets tagged by War Hulk he is down,and he can't outlast the Juggernaut.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 11, 2006)

Speculation on the pro-Vegeta camp, mostly.


----------



## Final Ultima (Aug 11, 2006)

You do realise that most Dragon Ball villains; when not blowing themselves up, generally attempt to blow up planets by piercing the planet's core with a ki beam? The weakest canon villain shown to have the strength to be able to completely eradicate a planet with a ki blast as opposed to just drilling through it is Kid Boo (Cell boasts that his ki is great enough to destroy the solar system, but that could be interpreted in more than one way, and it likely just a hyperbole).

So how exactly would an increase in ki also increase the severity of a planet piercing attack, provided it worked in the first place? It's not like the blast will wrap around and pierce every other planet in the near vacinity.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 11, 2006)

Final Ultima said:
			
		

> You do realise that most Dragon Ball villains; when not blowing themselves up, generally attempt to blow up planets by piercing the planet's core with a ki beam? The weakest canon villain shown to have the strength to be able to completely eradicate a planet with a ki blast as opposed to just drilling through it is Kid Boo.
> 
> So how exactly would an increase in ki also increase the severity of a planet piercing attack, provided it worked in the first place? It's not like the blast will wrap around and pierce every other planet in the near vacinity.




A bit more than a planet _peircing_ attack no?


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 11, 2006)

Still don't see a manga-screen of that.


----------



## Shiron (Aug 11, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

>


 Hmm, do my eyes decieve me, or does this appear to be just a greyscaled version of the pic?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 11, 2006)

Shiron said:
			
		

> Hmm, do my eyes decieve me, or does this appear to be just a greyscaled version of the pic?


I will never tell!

*Runs away, but after taking 3 steps, trips over a rock and falls on face*


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 11, 2006)

juggernaut is Invincible, The one and only thing that can harm him is Magic. And I haven't seen Vegeta don a sorcerer's gown yet


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 11, 2006)

_juggernaut is Invincible, The one and only thing that can harm him is Magic._

And Onslaught.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

And none of this explains how they stop from getting blasted off the planet before they can form a thought.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 12, 2006)

_And none of this explains how they stop from getting blasted off the planet before they can form a thought._

Depends whether ki blasts or beams can overcome Juggernaut's momentum field.

And neither of them will die in space -- Juggernaut doesn't need to breathe and apparently, as of New Avengers Illuminati, Hulk doesn't need a breathing apparatus.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 12, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> And none of this explains how they stop from getting blasted off the planet before they can form a thought.



Juggernaut has limitless strength, Immortalitly, Immobile unless he wants to move, when he moves he cannot be stopped unless he wants to be.

 Only magic can hurt him, powerful magic at that, meaning vegeta can't kill him it's immpossible.

 Telepathic attacks can render him unconscious, but can't kill him. 

The only thing vegeta has on juggernaut is flight and speed, that'll help vegeta keep away from juggernaut while juggernaut hunts vegeta down till vegeta dies. Blowing up the damn planet won't do a damn thing


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 12, 2006)

Not to mention Juggernaut doesn't need a solid surface to walk on.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 12, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> And none of this explains how they stop from getting blasted off the planet before they can form a thought.


You need an extraordinairy ammount of force to move the Juggernaut, and Vegeta will have to power-up such an attack before he can use it.


----------



## Kuya (Aug 12, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> You need an extraordinairy ammount of force to move the Juggernaut, and Vegeta will have to power-up such an attack before he can use it.



Would Final Flash do it?


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 12, 2006)

I doubt it.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 12, 2006)

Unless Final Flash is magic, which it isn't nope.

 Juugernaut can only harmed by magic or some other supernatural force. Ki isn't a supernatural force or magic.

 It's part of every living being in certain anime like ranma, it's called chakra in naruto, different from "sprit power" from yu yu hakusho. 

In most cases, sprit power comes from another source and can harm beings who are physically invulnerable like juggernaut.

 But Ki comes from within and therefore a worldly power and cannot harm beings like juggernaut


----------



## SoulTaker (Aug 12, 2006)

Telepathy is a worldly power and the last time I checked that took Juggs down.In any case you are right about Vegeta not being able to take down Juggs.Vegeta can't fight forever but Juggernaut can.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Energy doesn't just 'go out'. It has to go somewhere. Where did it go?


It dissapates because it no longer has a fuel source to sustain it.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> You need an extraordinairy ammount of force to move the Juggernaut, and Vegeta will have to power-up such an attack before he can use it.


Well since Vegeta is able to attack before Juggs or hulk can even form a thought let alone move or put a sheid they still get blasted off the planet with ease.You only need that kind of force when he's braced for an attack otherwise you just have to be able to move his weight.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 12, 2006)

I doubt it, Vegeta needs to actually POWER UP his blasts, bub. Juggs is protected by a cosmic being, not the powerless kind of DBZ, but a powerful being, the shield is always there. You need to be able to put in far more than 150 billion tons of pressure to even STOP Juggs, let alone move him.

And even then, they can just roll off of his beam.


----------



## konflikti (Aug 12, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Well since Vegeta is able to attack before Juggs or hulk can even form a thought let alone move or put a sheid they still get blasted off the planet with ease.You only need that kind of force when he's braced for an attack otherwise you just have to be able to move his weight.



As often as Vegeta starts fight by trying to blast his opponent straight off the planet, do Hulk and Juggs start their fighting without knowing they are fighting and relaxing.

Your plan is totally OOC, and dependant on the fact that Juggs doesn't have shield up, which is always up.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> I doubt it, Vegeta needs to actually POWER UP his blasts, bub. Juggs is protected by a cosmic being, not the powerless kind of DBZ, but a powerful being, the shield is always there. You need to be able to put in far more than 150 billion tons of pressure to even STOP Juggs, let alone move him.
> 
> And even then, they can just roll off of his beam.


His sheild isn't always on.He has to think to activate it.And not really because Vegeta has always been able to quilkly make poweful blasts.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 12, 2006)

_His sheild isn't always on.He has to think to activate it._

Last time I read up on Juggernaut before Cyttorak denounced him as its avatar, it was always on 24/7.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> As often as Vegeta starts fight by trying to blast his opponent straight off the planet, do Hulk and Juggs start their fighting without knowing they are fighting and relaxing.
> 
> Your plan is totally OOC, and dependant on the fact that Juggs doesn't have shield up, which is always up.


And when has Juggs or Hulk ever started a fight using super speed?And it's not always up how do think people have thrown him around before.You know like Onslaught punching him from Canada to New York.Yup,that sheild worked great there.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 12, 2006)

And since when does Vegeta come even CLOSE to Onslaught?


----------



## konflikti (Aug 12, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> And when has Juggs or Hulk ever started a fight using super speed?And it's not always up how do think people have thrown him around before.You know like Onslaught punching him from Canada to New York.Yup,that sheild worked great there.



I'm not saying that they have. It's just that your scenario consists of Vegeta knowing that he cannot harm 'em, charging up blast to throw them off the planet since he inherently knows the only possible way to win and Hulk and Juggs just standing there. Which I find to be rather unlikely scenario.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> I'm not saying that they have. It's just that your scenario consists of Vegeta knowing that he cannot harm 'em, charging up blast to throw them off the planet since he inherently knows the only possible way to win and Hulk and Juggs just standing there. Which I find to be rather unlikely scenario.


The thing is that all they can do is stand around.They simply lack the speed to do anything else.Vegeta could go h2h beat them around a bit realize he's not doing anything to really damage them and is just knocking them around and then resort to ki attacks to blast them away like Goku did to him when they fought.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 12, 2006)

Except Hulk and Juggernaut are a _bit_ harder to blast off then Vegeta was, not to mention that Juggernaut can just walk back to earth.

And don't try to compare Vegeta to Onslaught.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> And since when does Vegeta come even CLOSE to Onslaught?


In terms of physical destruction what has onslaught without FR or Nate done to compare him to Vegeta?And this doesn't mean that I think Vegeta would win because he would lose horribly but not do to Onslaughts physical prowess.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Except Hulk and Juggernaut are a _bit_ harder to blast off then Vegeta was, not to mention that Juggernaut can just walk back to earth.
> 
> And don't try to compare Vegeta to Onslaught.


How are they harder?Actually they would be easier because they a)can't defend themselves because they are too slow and b)are unable to fly.And how long do you think it would take Juggs to walk back.And I'm not comparing them overall because Onslaught would well slaughter Vegeta but what I am comparing is the power between their physical abilities to do damage and the fact that Juggs wasn't thrown into space means Onslaughts punch does't measure up to Vegeta's energy blasts.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 12, 2006)

Do you have any proof that Vegeta's energy blast will be so powerful that they would be able to move the Juggernaut?


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Do you have any proof that Vegeta's energy blast will be so powerful that they would be able to move the Juggernaut?


The fact that they can destroy planets?And since it has taken much less to move Juggs before I'd say they are more than powerful enough.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 12, 2006)

Less to move Juggs? You call War Hulk and Onslaught's physical strength _much less_? 

And Vegeta being able to destroy planets is SPECULATION, he has never done it in canon, EVER.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Less to move Juggs? You call War Hulk and Onslaught's physical strength _much less_?
> 
> And Vegeta being able to destroy planets is SPECULATION, he has never done it in canon, EVER.


It's not speculation after the Freeza saga.Yes and since Thor has moved Juggs, as has Gladiator and Thing,And Normal Hulk AND Iceman AND Magneto I thin it's safe to say he can be moved with enough force.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 12, 2006)

Cyclops hit Juggernaut with his optic blasts that were powerful enough to destroy a small moon. Cain simply stood there, and walked closer.

One comparison.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Cyclops hit Juggernaut with his optic blasts that were powerful enough to destroy a small moon. Cain simply stood there, and walked closer.
> 
> One comparison.


Because he was ready for them.That's kinda the point.If he knows somethings coming it's damn near impossible to move him if he doesn't want to be moved,but when caught off gaurd he can be moved.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 12, 2006)

And what about Cyttorak knowing something will happen? I do recall Cyttorak being the reason for the shield.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 12, 2006)

_Because he was ready for them.That's kinda the point.If he knows somethings coming it's damn near impossible to move him if he doesn't want to be moved,but when caught off gaurd he can be moved._

Understandable.

Although, I do't really see how Vegeta would win the battle if it were to be won if either party dies. Vegeta would have a far better chance to win the battle if it were to be won by ring-out.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Because he was ready for them.That's kinda the point.If he knows somethings coming it's damn near impossible to move him if he doesn't want to be moved,but when caught off gaurd he can be moved._
> 
> Understandable.
> 
> Although, I do't really see how Vegeta would win the battle if it were to be won if either party dies. Vegeta would have a far better chance to win the battle if it were to be won by ring-out.


And I completely agree.I never said he could kill either just get them so far away it would take a lifetime to get back.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 12, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Juggernaut has limitless strength, Immortalitly, Immobile unless he wants to move, when he moves he cannot be stopped unless he wants to be.
> 
> Only magic can hurt him, powerful magic at that, meaning vegeta can't kill him it's immpossible.
> 
> ...


Again though, he has never been pitted against an opponent as powerful as Vegeta, so there is nothing to base that on.



			
				Konoha Elite said:
			
		

> Would Final Flash do it?


Easily. His most powerful attack second to his desperate attack would do more than _move_ the juggernaut, it would destroy him. This is a planet destroying attack, which could probably do even more than destroy a planet. It could probably take out a small star. Especially if he's SSJ 2. Juggernaut doesn't stand a chance against it.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 12, 2006)

_Easily. His most powerful attack second to his desperate attack would do more than move the juggernaut, it would destroy him. This is a planet destroying attack, which could probably do even more than destroy a planet. It could probably destroy a small star. Especially if he's SSJ 2. Juggernaut doesn't stand a chance against it._

You severely underestimate the power of Cyttorak.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 12, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Easily. His most powerful attack second to his desperate attack would do more than move the juggernaut, it would destroy him. This is a planet destroying attack, which could probably do even more than destroy a planet. It could probably destroy a small star. Especially if he's SSJ 2. Juggernaut doesn't stand a chance against it._
> 
> You severely underestimate the power of Cyttorak.


Or maybe you underistimate the power of a Super Saiyan.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 12, 2006)

No, it's pretty much you over-estimating Vegeta.


----------



## TheFlameAlchemist (Aug 12, 2006)

Hoyl moly, it seems I've tied it by voting for Vegeta, why did I vote for him? Vegeta can fly, shoot little energy balls from the sky? Big Bang pl0x? Or how much exploding himself... woot...


----------



## Renegade (Aug 12, 2006)

Has Juggernaut ever defeated an opponent that has the power to destroy a planet?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 12, 2006)

Has Vegeta have enough ki to match a cosmic being?


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 12, 2006)

And mind you, Renegade, Cyttorak is far beyond those powerless-by-comparison Kais.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 12, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> It dissapates because it no longer has a fuel source to sustain it.



Do you know anything about physics?

It doesn't need a 'fuel source' if the energy is already there. You said Vegeta released more than enough energy to destroy a planet, but it only created a large crater. Where did the rest of that energy go?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 12, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Has Juggernaut ever defeated an opponent that has the power to destroy a planet?



Hulk (destroyed a planet twice the size of earth) has been beaten by Juggernaut on multiple occasions.

Thor (who is planetbusting +) has been beaten by Juggernaut.

Even Thor's Godforce blast couldn't harm Juggernaut (and it's about a billion times stronger than any attack ever in DBZ, it has even harmed Galactus).

He withstood a direct blast from Stellaris's Celestial armor with zero effect to his person. The sheer energy radius of the blast hitting him was so powerful it created a large chasm in the Earth.

Engaging fellow exemplar Stonecuter in a toe-to-toe slugfest,the punches they traded to one another caused earthquakes and was said to be the greatest fury ever unleashed on Earth.

Having magically been stripped of all of his flesh,The Juggernaut still stood before his enemy to complete the battle as merely a skeleton.

Facing the Stranger who'd grown to about 50 feet tall,The Juggernaut lept up and toppled him with one punch. The Stranger is a cosmic being.

Took a direct blast from the new-look Cyclops that was described by him as being able to "rip a small planet in half" with a smile as The Juggernaut's only reaction.

He's punched through time and space.

He survived an attack from ETERNITY (the embodiment of the entire universe).

He's broken the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak, which once crushed Galactus' ship.

Vegeta CANNOT hurt him.

Vegeta CANNOT move him.

Vegeta's gonna do nothing.

Vegeta's gonna die!


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 12, 2006)

_He survived an attack from ETERNITY (the embodiment of the entire universe)._

Yeah, I remember that bit. Ridiculous as that was. . .


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 12, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Again though, he has never been pitted against an opponent as powerful as Vegeta, so there is nothing to base that on.
> 
> 
> Easily. His most powerful attack second to his desperate attack would do more than _move_ the juggernaut, it would destroy him. This is a planet destroying attack, which could probably do even more than destroy a planet. It could probably take out a small star. Especially if he's SSJ 2. Juggernaut doesn't stand a chance against it.



Juggernaut IS IMMORTAL. And invincible. He defeated Cyttorak in combat, the god who gave him his power.

 only magic and other unworldly power can hurt him, no dice. Final Flash can't kill him.

 Exploding the planet can't kill him. 

Why people always pull out the Explode-a-planet last resort with Goku and Vegeta knowing they will die and will result in a draw.


----------



## The Sentry (Aug 12, 2006)

The power of cytorax didnt save Juggernaut being beat up by Gladiator. The Hulk is not unbeatable cos hes got beatup by scrawny lil spiderman 2wice. Vegeta doesnt even need 2 do any energy attack 2 kill theses 2 idiots. And jus like the Hulk Saiyans get stronger when their angry


----------



## The Sentry (Aug 12, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Juggernaut IS IMMORTAL. And invincible. He defeated Cyttorak in combat, the god who gave him his power.
> 
> only magic and other unworldly power can hurt him, no dice.


Juggernaut never beat Cyttorak. He was even powerless against the other beings powered by Cyttorak


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 12, 2006)

_Vegeta doesnt even need 2 do any energy attack 2 kill theses 2 idiots._

He really does need it. In the long run though, he'll exhaust himself to death against Juggs, for certain.

_And jus like the Hulk Saiyans get stronger when their angry_

No. Hulk's strength potential is limitless, as ridiculous as it sounds. Saiyans do reach a limit, up until a recovery from near-death.


----------



## The Sentry (Aug 12, 2006)

Juggernaut lost 2 Spiderman. lolol I dont c how he could beat Vegeta


----------



## Shiron (Aug 12, 2006)

Sarutobi700 said:
			
		

> The power of cytorax didnt save Juggernaut being beat up by Gladiator. The Hulk is not unbeatable cos hes got beatup by scrawny lil spiderman 2wice. Vegeta doesnt even need 2 do any energy attack 2 kill theses 2 idiots. And jus like the Hulk Saiyans get stronger when their angry


 But we're using War Hulk here which isn't the version that Spidey beat.

As for Saiyans getting stronger when they're angry... no they, don't; at least not to the proportions that Banner does. Saiyans only get stronger when they are defeated with serious injuries and then recover, unless you're talking about getting new SSJ forms... which doesn't matter for this thread as it's not like Vegeta is going to be getting a SSJ5 form during the fight or anything.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 12, 2006)

_Juggernaut lost 2 Spiderman. lolol I dont c how he could beat Vegeta_

If the battle is to be won via ring-out or disabling your opponent -- ie. bury him underneath tons and tons of rubble -- Vegeta wins.

If the battle is to be won with either one of the participants dead, Vegeta loses in the long run.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 12, 2006)

Or if he's stupid enough to go into hand-to-hand combat more than once. I mean, all Vegeta needs to do is fly into Juggs and the match'd be over.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 12, 2006)

Not to mention Spider-man has a track record of beating people he really has no business beating, like Firelord.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 12, 2006)

Vegeta can't kill Juggernaut. He lacks the power to do so. End of story


----------



## EvilMoogle (Aug 12, 2006)

The only incarnation of the Hulk Spidey's beaten that I know of was the Grey Hulk (one of the weakest incarnations).  And he beat him by accidently exposing him to gamma radiation whereupon he reverted back to Banner.  Hardly a victory that one would feel likely to reproduce.

He's survived encounters with various other forms of the Hulk, but he never does any beating (best he can manage is to sometimes lure the Hulk away or distract him).  War Hulk would be too smart for this anyway.

Spidey vs. Juggernaut was pretty much PIS as I recall.  Trapping Juggs in concrete wouldn't even slow him down.  Don't recall what powerlevel Juggs was at when that happened anyway.

Vegeta could force a draw by staying away from the two ground based ones until it's a stalemate.  He could probably knock out the Hulk if he starts the fight with a full-force blast before Hulk gets any anger momentum built up.

Vegeta can't touch Juggernaut at the height of his power though.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 12, 2006)

It isn't the DBZ style to go right into power-blasts, though. And even so, if Vegeta charges up a blast, I'd think that Hulk would be able to jump upto where ever Vegeta is, to a certain extent.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 12, 2006)

Not to mention War Hulk was being enhanced by Celestial technology that drew energy from many different galaxies.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Do you know anything about physics?
> 
> It doesn't need a 'fuel source' if the energy is already there. You said Vegeta released more than enough energy to destroy a planet, but it only created a large crater. Where did the rest of that energy go?


He controlled it the entire time like I said some pages ago.All the energy was used in the attack that's why it killed him.After he the attack was slowly getting weaker as he was running out of energy so when he had none left the attack stopped.And energy without a power source does eventually disapate.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 12, 2006)

This wall of ignorance is getting really annoying.

If you have enough energy to DESTROY A PLANET, it can't just 'dissipate' or 'run out' while only creating a crater a kilometer or two wide. All that extra energy has to go somewhere.

If that much energy was released on the surface of a planet, it would expand at relativistic speed, blowing the planet apart, and accelerating the debris at high velocities.

It's like if an H - bomb was detonated in the middle of your house and it only created an explosion big enough to destroy a coffee table. That isn't explained by saying 'without a continuous fuel source, the energy would run out'. Of course it would, but it would do a hell of a lot more damage than that beforehand.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 12, 2006)

_It's like if an H - bomb was detonated in the middle of your house and it only created an explosion big enough to destroy a coffee table._

Now that's something I would gladly pay to see.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> This wall of ignorance is getting really annoying.
> 
> If you have enough energy to DESTROY A PLANET, it can't just 'dissipate' or 'run out' while only creating a crater a kilometer or two wide. All that extra energy has to go somewhere.
> 
> ...


Since your complaining so much then how pray tell how would YOU explain the attack not destroying the earth.And before you say it didn't have planet destroyting power keep in mind this is a Vegeta 13 years and 2 levels of super saiyan after the Freeza saga.It's odd how your arguing about how energy actually works in this thread when in another you argued the exact opposite with even more energy involved and came up with much,much worse and unsubstansiated ideas to make it work.Double standard again huh Mike.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 12, 2006)

If you're talking about the Saint Seiya example, I provided a logical explanation that used known facts from physics and from the canon material, and it made sense.

There's just no explanation for this one, except, as you said, the attack didn't have planet - destroying power. The only real way to rationalize that is to use the chain - reaction hypothesis.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> If you're talking about the Saint Seiya example, I provided a logical explanation that used known facts from physics and from the canon material, and it made sense.
> 
> There's just no explanation for this one, except, as you said, the attack didn't have planet - destroying power. The only real way to rationalize that is to use the chain - reaction hypothesis.


No it didn't because none of the stuff you came up with was ever even hinted at in any way.Besides being so outlandish and still wrong by the way.Funny how your now arguing the exact opposite now when I'm  using the argument about focisng power for DBZ.And IT HAD TO HAVE PLANET DESTROYING POWER.Vegeta used up all his energy.And this is a Vegeta who is vastly more powerful than Freeza who last time I checked could destroy a planet.You cant get around that.No matter what you say Vegeta HAD to be stronger than Freeza.Unless your going to argue that Freeza couldn't destroy a planet.On top of that it was a sacrifice move and those are even stronger than normal moves.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 12, 2006)

And yet it only created a small crater.....

And the difference between this and the Athena Exclamation is that in the latter case, there was actually a place for the energy to go (back in time to the Big Bang, which is necessitated since that's where it was taken from in the first place). In this case, there is nowhere for the energy to go.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 12, 2006)

I'm not going to read a single post in this thread and just ask: Is there someone actually arguing in favor of Vegeta even though the very IDEA of the Juggernaut is that he can't die?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 12, 2006)

_Is there someone actually arguing in favor of Vegeta even though the very IDEA of the Juggernaut is that he can't die?_

Renegade, I believe.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And yet it only created a small crater.....
> 
> And the difference between this and the Athena Exclamation is that in the latter case, there was actually a place for the energy to go (back in time to the Big Bang, which is necessitated since that's where it was taken from in the first place). In this case, there is nowhere for the energy to go.


And your proof that's how the attack is?Until I see a scan that explains that's how it works it's speculation and speculation doesn't count.And it only created a small crater because wait for it.....He was controlling how far it went out .


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 12, 2006)

It's called a theory, and considering it fits the facts and makes perfect sense, it's a reasonable explanation.

And it's impossible to just 'control how far it goes out' if you have that much energy, because it can't just disappear without going somewhere.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 12, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> It's called a theory, and considering it fits the facts and makes perfect sense, it's a reasonable explanation.
> 
> And it's impossible to just 'control how far it goes out' if you have that much energy, because it can't just disappear without going somewhere.


Which means it means jack without anything backing it.Yeah well this is also a world where people with tails transform into giant monkeys under a full moon and have magical industructable extending staffs and can ride clouds but only people with pure hearts.Common sense went out the window when Roshi blew up the moon and no wheater anomolies wreaked the planet or that Kami could just make another one.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 12, 2006)

And that somehow invalidates the law of conservation of energy?


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 13, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And that somehow invalidates the law of conservation of energy?


As a man once said "when you break one law of physics other laws can also be broken"


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 13, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Or if he's stupid enough to go into hand-to-hand combat more than once. I mean, all Vegeta needs to do is fly into Juggs and the match'd be over.



You're clearly underestimating Vegeta's physical strength. He's as strong as ss4 Goku who could lift a city. That's easily class 100 strength

_Now before you start flaming me, I do not think Vegeta will win. He simply cannot kill either before tiring out_


----------



## Zhongda (Aug 13, 2006)

db charecters are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay 2 overated.
i mean it's illogical!!!
how can one of them blow up a planet, and with the same attack barley scratch his opponent?!?!1/?!!/!?!?!?qwEQOJGQ]?1

War Hulk (let alone the juggernaut) would cream his bish ass


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 13, 2006)

blue.rellik said:
			
		

> You're clearly underestimating Vegeta's physical strength. He's as strong as ss4 Goku who could lift a city. That's easily class 100 strength
> 
> _Now before you start flaming me, I do not think Vegeta will win. He simply cannot kill either before tiring out_


Vegeta and Goku are in no way class 100 strength.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 13, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Vegeta and Goku are in no way class 100 strength.



How heavy do you think that portion of city was?

Also in base form, Goku _while flying_ was having trouble with 10 ton weights around his ankles and wrists (where it would be hardest to lift). He went ss*1* and it was easy. What would happen if he was ss*2* or ss*3* or in this case ss*4*?

It has been shown that the difference between each level is _alot_


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 13, 2006)

And his forms increase his physical strength exponentially now, do they?

What's next, are you going to argue that Vegeta would be able to lift a 150 billion ton mountain?


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 13, 2006)

Well you dsidn't read my post. Goku _in base_ had trouble. In ss, _it was incredibly easy_

You do the maths

Hmmmm looking at my post....did I say Vegeta is stronger than Hulk?


----------



## konflikti (Aug 13, 2006)

Yet Goku needs to get about 4(3,75) billion times stronger from his base form for him to beat the highest lifting feat that a *normal* Hulk has shown to do.

Now, I do believe that DBZ high tier are somewhere around class 100, but that in no way shows that they would be cabable of surviving against either of these in HtH.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 13, 2006)

I agree with you, my point is that Vegeta won't be beaten with one punch from Jugs. A few maybe though


----------



## SoulTaker (Aug 13, 2006)

blue.rellik said:
			
		

> I agree with you, my point is that Vegeta won't be beaten with one punch from Jugs. A few maybe though



I agree about Juggs needing to get in a few to get Vegeta down,but if War Hulk tags him then it is probably over.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 13, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:
			
		

> I agree about Juggs needing to get in a few to get Vegeta down,but if War Hulk tags him then it is probably over.


And there in lies the problem because neither of his opponets have the speed to hit him.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 13, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> And there in lies the problem because neither of his opponets have the speed to hit him.



But hows that win for Vegeta?


----------



## exmorte (Aug 13, 2006)

Its a win for the hulk/jug duo simply because vegeta cannot keep avoiding and running forever, he will tire out. DBZ characters have this thing called stamina. The war hulk could clap a few times and knock vegetas ass down.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 13, 2006)

THUNDERCLAP FTW!


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 13, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> THUNDERCLAP FTW!


And a sound wave is going to hit him when he can dodge lightning how again?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 13, 2006)

One thing for sure -- ears are going to be bleeding.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 13, 2006)

Because sound has a wider area of effect than lightning, and even so, dodging lightning does not equal being as fast as lightning.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 13, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> And once again, DBZ strength is not impressive, only their Ki increases that much, not their strength, nor their speed.



And where did you get this conclusion from? 

I thought The "Kanzentai" Cell Vs. USSJ Trunks taught you something I guess not.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 13, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Because sound has a wider area of effect than lightning, and even so, dodging lightning does not equal being as fast as lightning.


Except he can dodge behind him and be safe because in real life both Hulk and Juggs would have blasted themselves with their own attacks.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 13, 2006)

So USSJ Trunks can lift a 150 billion ton mountain now?

And how would they blast themselves, exactly? If they're aiming up there's a very slim chance of getting to one another.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 13, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> So USSJ Trunks can lift a 150 billion ton mountain now?
> 
> And how would they blast themselves, exactly? If they're aiming up there's a very slim chance of getting to one another.



You do not know what DBZ Full strenght Compacity is! When they transform or power up it increases all of their attributes Strength, Speed, Agility etc..

Vegeta could win with a ring out by blasting them off the  planet.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 13, 2006)

> You do not know what DBZ Full strenght Compacity is! When they transform or power up it increases all of their attributes Strength, Speed, Agility etc..



Not true. Refrence Perfect Cell vs Trunks.



> Vegeta could win with a ring out by blasting them off the planet.



There's no ring out, and Vegeta would die from that as Hulk and Juggs would still be alive.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 13, 2006)

And there's the doubt of Vegeta even being able to blast Juggernaut off the planet.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 13, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Not true. Refrence Perfect Cell vs Trunks.
> 
> *I already used that as an example, Trunks Trained his body just for Power and Strength! Cell Confirmed that he was a fool and that his transformation "did not give RISE to ANYTHING." you don't knopw how strong DBZ characters really are.*
> 
> There's no ring out, and Vegeta would die from that as Hulk and Juggs would still be alive.



Vegeta could blast them off the planet is what I am saying.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 13, 2006)

> I already used that as an example, Trunks Trained his body just for Power and Strength! Cell Confirmed that he was a fool and that his transformation "did not give RISE to ANYTHING." you don't knopw how strong DBZ characters really are.



You said powering up makes EVERYTHING about them stronger. That fight shows thats just not true. Trunks powered up alot, but his speed didn't go up.




> Vegeta could blast them off the planet is what I am saying.



Thats not a win.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 13, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> You said powering up makes EVERYTHING about them stronger. That fight shows thats just not true. Trunks powered up alot, but his speed didn't go up.
> 
> *The reason why "Everything did not power up is because of the "Ultra" Super Saiya-jin form that he used was only for power and strength. Vegeta could have used it but did not Goku could have used it as well but did not. Due to the lack of "BALANCE" that Goku was talking about in the Room of Spirit and Time. So yes a power up and Super Saiyajin transformation increases all STATS. Like I said you don't know how strong all you are doing is assuming.*
> 
> Thats not a win.



Yes it is a win, Vegeta blasting them off the planet is a win. I have seen Juggernaut trapped under a pile of rubble for 8 months by Spider-man and it was a win. 

Vegeta wins by blasting them off the planet.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 13, 2006)

Oh, and Phenomenol, where do you dictate that blasting them off the planet will be a win? I haven't seen any of that in the first post.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 13, 2006)

I have not seen anything in the first post being against Blasting them off the planet not being a win.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 13, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> And there in lies the problem because neither of his opponets have the speed to hit him.



All DBZers have a tendency to melee first. Even if the attack seems futile, they'll still try. It's a given that it'll be futile when he melee Hulk. All hulk has to do is sonic clap, followed by a punch. That's HOW he hits him.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 13, 2006)

> Yes it is a win, Vegeta blasting them off the planet is a win. I have seen Juggernaut trapped under a pile of rubble for 8 months by Spider-man and it was a win.
> 
> Vegeta wins by blasting them off the planet.



*WAR HULK/JUGGERNAUT DEAD = WIN

WAR HULK/JUGGERNAUT NOT DEAD =/= WIN*


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 13, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> *WAR HULK/JUGGERNAUT DEAD = WIN
> 
> WAR HULK/JUGGERNAUT NOT DEAD =/= WIN*



Did not see that in the first post!

Also you can not KILL the JUGGERNAUT if you knew anything about Comics. Vegeta's only plan will be to blast him to another planet.

A win is a win.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 13, 2006)

Juggernaut walking back to Earth being what, then?


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 13, 2006)

A thousand years long, and Vegeta would be long gone.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 13, 2006)

And you get this data from where, precisely? Hulk and Juggernaut can just easily roll off the beam.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 13, 2006)

> Did not see that in the first post!
> 
> Also you can not KILL the JUGGERNAUT if you knew anything about Comics. Vegeta's only plan will be to blast him to another planet.
> 
> A win is a win.



I don't see anything about a ring out in the first post either. This is exactly the kind of dumb shit people attack for. 

Also, yes I read comics and know Juggernaut can't die. Thats why this thread is stupid.

A win is a death or KO




> A thousand years long, and Vegeta would be long gone.



You mean long dead. Which means win for Hulk and Juggs.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 13, 2006)

Before they do they would be somewhere in space or on another planet.


----------



## Aqua_Warrior (Aug 13, 2006)

I can imagine the pwnage now... YOU WON'T LIKE ME WHEN I'M.... THE JUGGERNAUGHT BITCH!!


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 13, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> I don't see anything about a ring out in the first post either. This is exactly the kind of dumb shit people attack for.
> 
> Also, yes I read comics and know Juggernaut can't die. Thats why this thread is stupid.
> 
> ...



Don't blame me, Blame whoever created this thread..


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 13, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Before they do they would be somewhere in space or on another planet.


You mean like how Vegeta was way off into space after he got blasted by Goku's Kamehameha?

Oh wait, he didn't!


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 13, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> You mean like how Vegeta was way off into space after he got blasted by Goku's Kamehameha?
> 
> Oh wait, he didn't!



Yeah, Same way Juggernaut stopped himself from being punched by Onslaught acroos North America, or how about when Juggernaut easily shrugged off from being trapped under a building by Spiderman for 8 months.:amazed 

They will get blasted off the planet, it will be too late for them.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 13, 2006)

You're going to compare ONSLAUGHT to Vegeta now? Man, that's real rich.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 13, 2006)

_Yeah, Same way Juggernaut stopped himself from being punched by Onslaught acroos North America,_

Onslaught and Vegeta are really two different characters. Their powers differ in magnitude as well.

_or how about when Juggernaut easily shrugged off from being trapped under a building by Spiderman for 8 months._

And Juggernaut's disabled. That does count as a win for Vegeta, should the battle be won via incapacitation in any way, shape, or form or ring-out.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 13, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Onslaught and Vegeta are really two different characters. Their powers differ in magnitude as well.
> 
> *I am talking about the magnitude of attacks, Onlaught punched Juggs across North America, Vegeta will blast him off the planet. Juggs can not stop it.*
> 
> And Juggernaut's disabled. That does count as a win for Vegeta, should the battle be won via incapacitation in any way, shape, or form or ring-out.



Exactly, that is Vegeta's ONLY way of winning. Whoever made this thread should know that.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 13, 2006)

> Exactly, that is Vegeta's ONLY way of winning. Whoever made this thread should know that.



Actually...his only way of winning is defeating them.


----------



## Kuya (Aug 13, 2006)

I wonder if Vegeta is fast enough to stand in front of Juggernaught while Juggs throws a punch, then Vegeta grabs and replaces Hulk in front of Juggs Fist... Then War Hulk gets mad then beats Juggs again.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 13, 2006)

I don't think he's fast enough, besides, in order to move Hulk, you need to touch him, which would be a big mistake on Vegeta's part.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 13, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> As a man once said "when you break one law of physics other laws can also be broken"



If that logically follows that they will.

In this case, it does not.


----------



## exmorte (Aug 13, 2006)

Assuming that jugs and hulk stood back to back and both clapped at the same time, the only way vegeta could dodge would be going directly above, however this would only dodge the brunt of the attack as the force would go upwards as well. And this would do damage to vegetas inner ear (assuming he has one) To effectively rid vegeta of his ability to dodge, so if he cant dodge then he will be hit, which would pretty much be the end of vegeta. However this is whole argument assumes that sayains are anatomicly similar to humans.

However seeing as how a majority of the arguments for vegeta are based on speculation/comparisons to other characters/things vegeta himself said.I think this works as a valid argument.


----------



## azn_sephiroth (Aug 14, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Vegeta's strength far surpasses the strength of someone who can destroy an entire planet with a single finger. I have no, pardon the vulgarity, *Fucking* doubt in my mind that he can lift whatever The Hulk is lifting in that picture.
> 
> 
> Any proof that it's twice the size of Earth?



Renegade your awesome hahaha

I have to admit im a bit biased towards Vegeta. I always hated the hulk i dont know why..i guess since ive never been a fan for western comics. Anyways id love to think vegeta wins this but i just dont know..i dont think anybody knows on this forum


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 14, 2006)

azn_sephiroth said:
			
		

> Renegade your awesome hahaha
> 
> I have to admit im a bit biased towards Vegeta. I always hated the hulk i dont know why..i guess since ive never been a fan for western comics. Anyways id love to think vegeta wins this but i just dont know..i dont think anybody knows on this forum



Would the fact that juggernaut is immortal  make your choice?


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 14, 2006)

exmorte said:
			
		

> Assuming that jugs and hulk stood back to back and both clapped at the same time, the only way vegeta could dodge would be going directly above, however this would only dodge the brunt of the attack as the force would go upwards as well. And this would do damage to vegetas inner ear (assuming he has one) To effectively rid vegeta of his ability to dodge, so if he cant dodge then he will be hit, which would pretty much be the end of vegeta. However this is whole argument assumes that sayains are anatomicly similar to humans.
> 
> However seeing as how a majority of the arguments for vegeta are based on speculation/comparisons to other characters/things vegeta himself said.I think this works as a valid argument.



Saiya-jin are vastly similar to humans. Proof? They can mate with them.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 14, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> I don't think he's fast enough, besides, in order to move Hulk, you need to touch him, which would be a big mistake on Vegeta's part.



Kid Goku in DB could dodge bullets. I think ss4 Vegeta can move faster than that


----------



## azn_sephiroth (Aug 14, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Would the fact that juggernaut is immortal  make your choice?



No...^_^ I still dont know enough to be able to debate on this...but you guys shouldnt take this so damn seriously.

Buuuut this HAS been amusing


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 14, 2006)

_I have no, pardon the vulgarity, Fucking doubt in my mind that he can lift whatever The Hulk is lifting in that picture._

150 billion tons?

When Goku at base struggles with 40 tons? I doubt that Vegeta's strength is in the millions, let alone the billions.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 14, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> So USSJ Trunks can lift a 150 billion ton mountain now?
> 
> And how would they blast themselves, exactly? If they're aiming up there's a very slim chance of getting to one another.


The concussive force they make wouldn't trevel in one direction as sound itself doesn't only travel in one direction and since I've never seen somone hurt themselves with a thunderclap comic physics aren't the same as real world physics hence being safe behind them.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 14, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _I have no, pardon the vulgarity, Fucking doubt in my mind that he can lift whatever The Hulk is lifting in that picture._
> 
> 150 billion tons?
> 
> When Goku at base struggles with 40 tons? I doubt that Vegeta's strength is in the millions, let alone the billions.


Hulk never _lifted_ any where near that weight, he_ braced _it.Big difference.And he didn't do it alone either.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 14, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> I don't think he's fast enough, besides, in order to move Hulk, you need to touch him, which would be a big mistake on Vegeta's part.


Not really seeing as Vegeta could move him before his synapses fire.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 15, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Hulk never _lifted_ any where near that weight, he_ braced _it.Big difference.And he didn't do it alone either.



Braced? Your point is? Still far more than Vegeta's ever embraced in his entire life.

Of course he didn't do it alone.... Bruce Banner and _anger_ tag team the shit out that mountain.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 15, 2006)

And War II is A LOT stronger than the Hulk that _braced_ that weight. What part of 'unlimited strength' don't you get?


----------



## Envy (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> It's to support that Vegeta's *Ki* exceeds or atleast matches The Hulk's strength.
> 
> 
> We have it actually being shown in the anime. We have Dodoria, Zarbon, and Frieza stating it. He destroyed planet Namek, so we know he was capable of destroying planet Vegeta. If that's not enough evidence to convince you that Frieza destroyed it, than you can think whatever the hell you want, because apparently nothing gets through to you.



Right, I'm not going to read the last 9 pages because the stupidity of the thread just skyrocketed through the roof with this post. 

Ki =/= Physical strength. Get over it you big baby.

Edit: So unless the 150 billion tons was dropped on hulk, he didn't lift it. Lifiting 150 billion tons is a shitload harder. But seeing as how it's 150 *billion* tons. It doens't really matter. Hulk is stronger than Vegeta *physically.*


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Actually, it was dropped on him, by Molecule Man.


----------



## Dr.Douchebag (Aug 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _juggernaut is Invincible, The one and only thing that can harm him is Magic._
> 
> And Onslaught.



onslaught returneth in 2007  

on topic: i see no way of killing juggs w/o the ability to use extremely high levels of magic 
vegeta will be fighting 2 beings with seemingly infinite endurance i just dont see him winning this


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Why is Vegeta still winning in the poll? T_T


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

?clair said:
			
		

> Right, I'm not going to read the last 9 pages because the stupidity of the thread just skyrocketed through the roof with this post.
> 
> Ki =/= Physical strength. Get over it you big baby.
> 
> Edit: So unless the 150 billion tons was dropped on hulk, he didn't lift it. Lifiting 150 billion tons is a shitload harder. But seeing as how it's 150 *billion* tons. It doens't really matter. Hulk is stronger than Vegeta *physically.*


Ki can equal physical strength. All you have to do is look at the feats accomplished by a characters Ki, and then look at the feats accomplished by the other character's strength. Frieza has the ability to destroy a planet. By the end of DBZ (not to mention GT) Vegeta's Ki *FAR* surpasses Frieza's. Therefore Vegeta's Ki is powerful enough to destroy a planet, and then some. Get over it you big baby.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Ki can equal physical strength. All you have to do is look at the feats accomplished by a characters Ki, and then look at the feats accomplished by the other character's strength. Frieza has the ability to destroy a planet. By the end of DBZ (not to mention GT) Vegeta's Ki *FAR* surpasses Frieza's. Therefore Vegeta's Ki is powerful enough to destroy a planet, and then some. Get over it you big baby.



Vegeta still can't even come close to class 150 billion strength.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 15, 2006)

And again... what does destroying a planet with energy blast have to do with physical strength?


----------



## konflikti (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Ki can equal physical strength.



No, it can't. They are fundamentally two different things.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

And nuking the planet won't do a damn thing to Juggernaut


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> And nuking the planet won't do a damn thing to Juggernaut



Indeed. The fact still remains that Juggernaut CAN'T die.


----------



## exmorte (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Ki can equal physical strength. All you have to do is look at the feats accomplished by a characters Ki, and then look at the feats accomplished by the other character's strength. Frieza has the ability to destroy a planet. By the end of DBZ (not to mention GT) Vegeta's Ki *FAR* surpasses Frieza's. Therefore Vegeta's Ki is powerful enough to destroy a planet, and then some. Get over it you big baby.



What he said is Ki is not a direct representation of physical strength, while yes there is a corralation (strength training is shown increasing KI) Just because Vegetas Ki is huge doesnt mean that he can physicaly lift 150 bil tons. Your whole argument discusses Ki not physical strength, you talk of Vegetas *KI* being able to destroy a planet not vegeta's strength. Just because he has high KI doesnt mean he has the strength to lift 150bil tons. All you argue is the power of their attacks (KI ATTACKS MIND YOU) not the power of physical strength. 



			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Why is Vegeta still winning in the poll? T_T



As I and others have said many times before *Fanboys>Logic*


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> No, it can't. They are fundamentally two different things.



Ki is overall power in DBZ! The powerlevels are based on Ki which is Speed, STRENGTH, agility etc...


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Ki is overall power in DBZ! The powerlevels are based on Ki which is Speed, STRENGTH, agility etc...



No its not. Its not that at all.

Vegeta has alot of ki, but he can't lift 150 billion tons OR kill the Juggernaut.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> No its not. Its not that at all.
> 
> Vegeta has alot of ki, but he can't lift 150 billion tons OR kill the Juggernaut.



Do you ever get tired of being wrong, you are like a damn robot on repeat.

Ki is overall power, powerlevels are based on Ki. Did you watch the damn Cell saga when Goku said himself that they need to keep their ki in a "BALANCED STATE."

Proove to me that Vegeta can NOT lift 150 billion tons?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

You can't prove a negative, dipshit.

Burden of proof is on you.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

> Proove to me that Vegeta can NOT lift 150 billion tons?



He never did it or anything close to it.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 15, 2006)

Proof that Vegeta cannot lift 150 billion tons?

When he did NOT lift that 150 billion ton object...


----------



## Envy (Aug 15, 2006)

It's funny how you don't know jack shit about physics Renegade, and yet you still think ki = strength. Seems you need to get through high school and take a few more classes before you start talking again. Get over it. Vegeta can't win and Vegeta isn't even remotely close to lifting 150 billion tons.

Just to insult you, here's an excerpt from the wikipedia you love so much. 



> The magnitude of physical strength, often referred to as just strength, determines the ability of a person or animal to exert force on physical objects using muscles. Increasing physical strength is the goal of strength training.
> 
> Strength can be divided into two categories. Short-term endurance and long-term endurance. In humans, there are three primary muscle fiber classifications: Slow Twitch (Type I or ST), Fast Twitch A (also known as Type IIa or FT-A), and Fast Twitch B (Type IIb or FT-B).




And.. *Ki*



> * Ki is an amorphous, undefinable force, but it is generally described as the energy of life itself. It gives each person his or her spiritual, physical and mental power and there is a belief that it binds all living things together.
> * Ki is said to follow intent; martial artists believe that an action performed with true and focused intent will be "full of Ki" and thus will be more effective yet less demanding than an action performed with lack of Ki. This action is not necessarily limited to martial technique. Conversely, physical or mental tension impedes the flow of Ki.
> * Although Ki is recognized as an integral element of most Eastern martial arts, certain types of martial arts, such as Aikido and Tai Chi, place greater emphasis on its principles and cultivation than others.



Now get over it, you're wrong, I'm right. Gj on your neg rep btw. Next time try to do it for something worthwhile.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

I never said Vegeta COULD lift 150 billion tons now did I? I was merely stating that the rest of the ASSUMERS in this damn thread need to stop that crap. 

Like I said Vegeta already won when the thread creator made this thread.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> I never said Vegeta COULD lift 150 billion tons now did I? I was merely stating that the rest of the ASSUMERS in this damn thread need to stop that crap.
> 
> Like I said Vegeta already won when the thread creator made this thread.



My god you are easy to dislike.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> My god you are easy to dislike.



Oh really, becasue I already provided facts and proof on Vegeta's victory? Go and actually read the damn thread before making comments.


----------



## konflikti (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Ki is overall power in DBZ!



Gosh, I need to sleep. I though you were talking about powerlevels. I don't see how ki is overall of anything, since it's just a part of DB characters powers.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> The powerlevels are based on Ki which is Speed, STRENGTH, agility etc...



False. Ki isn't strenght, speed or agility. It's amount of "spiritual" power character posesses. It isn't directly propotional(or propotional at all) to physical powers.

*Edited for great justice.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Oh really, becasue I already provided facts and proof on Vegeta's victory? Go and actually read the damn thread before making comments.



Facts? Like what? All you ever said is "ringout" which is NOT a victory at all.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> False. Ki isn't strenght, speed or agility. It's amount of "spiritual" power character posesses. It isn't directly propotional(or propotional at all) to physical powers.



Yes it is. Goku himself said that the Ultra Super Saiya-jin form had to much Raw strength and Ki? Goku also stated that the form sacrificed Speed, so he said he will stay with the regular Super Saiya-jin form and train for "BALANCE." Cell told Trunks that the USSJ form "GAVE RISE TO NOTHING, NOTHING AT ALL." Vegeta and Goku knew about this. Ki is everything concerning the fighters physical attributes and energy.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Ki in DBZ increases energy projection at a much greater rate than physical strength.

By demonstrated physical feats, the top - tier DBZ characters are barely class 100.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol, you still haven't explained how Vegeta is suppose to kill a guy who can't die. At all.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Phenomenol, you still haven't explained how Vegeta is suppose to kill a guy who can't die. At all.



Like I said Blast him off of the DAMN planet that is the only way.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Like I said Blast him off of the DAMN planet that is the only way.



That's not a win.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Ki in DBZ increases energy projection at a much greater rate than physical strength.
> 
> By demonstrated physical feats, the top - tier DBZ characters are barely class 100.



Goku was beating class 100 guys BACK in Dragonball and Goku was pushing rocks that weighed more than 50 tonms at least. 

Goku has never failed to lift something when it was time for him to lift it.

Goku did lift the "DENSEST" Material in the universe over his head.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku was beating class 100 guys BACK in Dragonball and Goku was pushing rocks that weighed more than 50 tonms at least.
> 
> Goku has never failed to lift something when it was time for him to lift it.
> 
> Goku did lift the "DENSEST" Material in the universe over his head.



Do you fucking know how much a ton is? 

Tell me something that weighs two tons. Of the top of your head.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku was beating class 100 guys BACK in Dragonball and Goku was pushing rocks that weighed more than 50 tonms at least.
> 
> Goku has never failed to lift something when it was time for him to lift it.
> 
> Goku did lift the "DENSEST" Material in the universe over his head.



Vegeta can't win. _*End of Story*_


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Do you fucking know how much a ton is?
> 
> Tell me something that weighs two tons. Of the top of your head.



How about a damn elephant or a huge ass tank, oh I know how about KID Goku picking up a DAMN DINOSAUR with his fingers.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku was beating class 100 guys BACK in Dragonball and Goku was pushing rocks that weighed more than 50 tonms at least.
> 
> Goku has never failed to lift something when it was time for him to lift it.
> 
> Goku did lift the "DENSEST" Material in the universe over his head.



Beating someone does not make you as strong as them. I always say that people should avoid "power by association"

Let's say that a japanese school girl smashes a brick into the groin of a bodybuilder. Bodybuilder falls down in defeat. Does that mean the girl is as strong as the bodybuilder?

He failed to lift his limbs when he had those 10 ton weights on them....


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> And again... what does destroying a planet with energy blast have to do with physical strength?





			
				Konflikti said:
			
		

> No, it can't. They are fundamentally two different things.


I didn't mean that ki can *transfer* into physical strength. I meant you can compare the Ki of one character with the strength of another. (Vegeta's ki with Hulk's strength)


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 15, 2006)

And does that help Vegeta against the 150 billion ton mountain?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku did lift the "DENSEST" Material in the universe over his head.



Strongest, not densest.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> And does that help Vegeta against the 150 billion ton mountain?


Does lifting a 150 bilion ton mountain help the Hulk when he's getting blasted with a planet destroying Final Flash?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> How about a damn elephant or a huge ass tank, oh I know how about KID Goku picking up a DAMN DINOSAUR with his fingers.



Actually, most fully grown elephants weight 7 metric tons and a tank can weigh 60 tons.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Beating someone does not make you as strong as them. I always say that people should avoid "power by association"



Bad logic Keollyn! Goku physical BEAT a guy that strong, he just did not punch anybody in weak spots or in the Groin. Goku was strong himself in dragonball. Pushing Huge ass rocks, throwing tanks around in the RR arc. 

Talk about strength, how about Goku not knowing how to fly Instead Juming So high he SURPASSED the clouds. 

All of this as a DAMN CHILD!!! You don't know how strong Goku is.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 15, 2006)

_Does lifting a 150 bilion ton mountain help the Hulk when he's getting blasted with a planet destroying Final Flash?_

You're the one arguing that Vegeta would be able to handle that kind of weight.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Bad logic Keollyn! Goku physical BEAT a guy that strong, he just did not punch anybody in weak spots or in the Groin. Goku was strong himself in dragonball. Pushing Huge ass rocks, throwing tanks around in the RR arc.
> 
> Talk about strength, how about Goku not knowing how to fly Instead Juming So high he SURPASSED the clouds.
> 
> All of this as a DAMN CHILD!!! You don't know how strong Goku is.



The girl in my analogy PHYSICALLY beat the bodybuilder. What? Are bricks laden with ki?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> How about a damn elephant or a huge ass tank, oh I know how about KID Goku picking up a DAMN DINOSAUR with his fingers.



An adult male African Elephant weights about 6 tons.

An M1A1 Abrams MBT weighs about 60 tons.

A T. Rex weighed about 7 tons.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Strongest, not densest.



It was the DENSEST MATERIAL!!! in the Dragonball Tonkounban and Kanzneban states this.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Oh really, becasue I already provided facts and proof on Vegeta's victory? Go and actually read the damn thread before making comments.



You need to get back on the meds because Vegeta can't beat someone (War Hulk)who could rip him to pieces and shrug  off most of his attack. 

  and someone who is *Immortal*.

 Don't know what that means? Look it up. And if Vegeta blows up the planet, Vegeta dies and juggernaut lives. 

You are nothing but a annoying jackass fanboy


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> It was the DENSEST MATERIAL!!! in the Dragonball Tonkounban and Kanzneban states this.



Really, because the manga scan I read said it was the strongest.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> The girl in my analogy PHYSICALLY beat the bodybuilder. What? Are bricks laden with ki?



It is how you had the girl beat a body builder. Goku PHYSICALLY outmatched Tao.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> It was the DENSEST MATERIAL!!! in the Dragonball Tonkounban and Kanzneban states this.



I don't recall him physically lifting it anyways.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Really, because the manga scan I read said it was the strongest.



Yeah, The Dranet Manga could mistranslate a few things, that is why I refer to mine just in case.

Yet I don't know if lifting the Densest material helps Goku's strength feats at all.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Does lifting a 150 bilion ton mountain help the Hulk when he's getting blasted with a planet destroying Final Flash?_
> 
> You're the one arguing that Vegeta would be able to handle that kind of weight.


No i'm not. I'm saying in the overall fight, Vegeta's ki makes up for his lack of strength. Meaning his ki matches The Hulk's strength.


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Aug 15, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Bardock's special isn't canon, anyway.



Hmmm so what you're saying is that Goku doesn't have a dad and he wasn't sent to Earth in a space pod? Wow pretty lame excuse to me.

Geez, Is there anyone you think DBZ can beat? 

Lifting things plays nearly nilch in this fight. I can just show a video about fancy explosions Vegeta does:  but it's not about that. 

But as much as I admire how badass Vegeta is, he's fighting the Hulk AND the Juggernaut. I have to know more about them before I can judge this fight.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> No i'm not. I'm saying in the overall fight, Vegeta's ki makes up for his lack of strength. Meaning his ki matches The Hulk's strength.



But its ki, not strength.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

This thread has a clear winner but it will go on till it reaches the page number of Goku vs Superman


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

> Hmmm so what you're saying is that Goku doesn't have a dad and he wasn't sent to Earth in a space pod? Wow pretty lame excuse to me.



No, he's saying Bardock isn't canon smartass.




> But as much as I admire how badass Vegeta is, he's fighting the Hulk AND the Juggernaut. I have to know more about them before I can judge this fight.



What do you need to know besides that Juggernaut CANNOT die?


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> It is how you had the girl beat a body builder. Goku PHYSICALLY outmatched Tao.



And what did this Taopaipai do that made him a class 100 character? I'd like to know how he's seemingly stronger than Boo saga Base Goku.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> You need to get back on the meds because Vegeta can't beat someone (War Hulk)who could rip him to pieces and shrug  off most of his attack.
> 
> and someone who is *Immortal*.
> 
> ...



Wow, it is not your fault since you have shown your ignorance already. Go and actually read my first post in this thread from page 5 on up so you can get an idea on how I said Vegeta can win against them.

Also I am wondering if you know any damn thing about the Juggernaut or Hulk. Since Vegeta's ONLY way of DAMN victory was the method that I used for him.

Think before you speak, and especially before you try to insult when you do not know what the hell you are chatting.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> No, he's saying Bardock isn't canon smartass.



Wait a sec bardock was one of the only canon DBZ movies


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> But its ki, not strength.


... 

I never said it was strength... I said it makes up for his lack of strength. And in the overall fight, Vegeta's ki matches The Hulk's strength.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Wow, it is not your fault since you have shown your ignorance already. Go and actually read my first post in this thread from page 5 on up so you can get an idea on how I said Vegeta can win against them.
> 
> Also I am wondering if you know any damn thing about the Juggernaut or Hulk. Since Vegeta's ONLY way of DAMN victory was the method that I used for him.
> 
> Think before you speak, and especially before you try to insult when you do not know what the hell you are chatting.



The method you provided is NOT a win. 

*THERE IS NO DAMN RINGOUT.*


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Wow, it is not your fault since you have shown your ignorance already. Go and actually read my first post in this thread from page 5 on up so you can get an idea on how I said Vegeta can win against them.
> 
> Also I am wondering if you know any damn thing about the Juggernaut or Hulk. Since Vegeta's ONLY way of DAMN victory was the method that I used for him.
> 
> Think before you speak, and especially before you try to insult when you do not know what the hell you are chatting.



You crack me up, how you're trying to get all the negative attention off of you and onto me.

 Not gonna work You already made yourself look like a fool


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Wait a sec bardock was one of the only canon DBZ movies



Originally he wasn't. But Toriyama liked it, so he put him in the manga briefly. 

The character is canon now, but the events of the story, I don't know.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 15, 2006)

_No i'm not._



			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> Vegeta's strength far surpasses the strength of someone who can destroy an entire planet with a single finger. I have no, pardon the vulgarity, *Fucking* doubt in my mind that he can lift whatever The Hulk is lifting in that picture.



_I'm saying in the overall fight, Vegeta's ki makes up for his lack of strength. _

Understandable.

_Meaning his ki matches The Hulk's strength._

Vegeta's ki is greater than Hulk's strength in destructive capabilities.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> And what did this Taopaipai do that made him a class 100 character? I'd like to know how he's seemingly stronger than Boo saga Base Goku.



Tao was shown tossing a huge concrete column in a single burst (and jumped on it and he actually flew on top of it for a while}.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Tao was shown tossing a huge concrete column in a single burst (and jumped on it and he actually flew on top of it for a while}.



We know that, and thats one of the reasons we love Tao. But that's not class 100 strength, and beating class 100 doesn't mean you are class 100. 

I don't recall them stopping in the middle of the fight to have a weight lifting contest or a column throwing match.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> We know that, and thats one of the reasons we love Tao. But that's not class 100 strength, and beating class 100 doesn't mean you are class 100.
> 
> I don't recall them stopping in the middle of the fight to have a weight lifting contest or a column throwing match.




Goku PHYSICALLY outclassed Tao in their match Goku was unphased by a guys punches who has such incredible strength.

You still don't know how strong Goku is, all you are doing is assuming.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

> Goku PHYSICALLY outclassed Tao in their match Goku was unphased by a guys punches who has such incredible strength.



That doesn't say anything about Goku's lifting ability.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Tao was shown tossing a huge concrete column in a single burst (and jumped on it and he actually flew on top of it for a while}.



It was probally meant for a joke, like how Ryoga Picks up giant boulders to chuck at Ranma. _*Try again*_


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> That doesn't say anything about Goku's lifting ability.



Does not need to say much, He beat a guy that was Super Strong, and Goku was Super strong himself.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

> Does not need to say much, He beat a guy that was Super Strong, and Goku was Super strong himself.



You know what that reminds me of?

The girl beating the bodybuilder.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> *No i'm not.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, and then later followed that by making this statement:



			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> Minami Ryusuke said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Does not need to say much, He beat a guy that was Super Strong, and Goku was Super strong himself.



That dosen't say a damn thing. You don't need muscles to take out a muscle-head. David and goliath and all. *Try Again*


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 15, 2006)

Alrighty then.


----------



## Envy (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade: Saying  that Vegeta's Ki matches Hulks strength is like comparing apples and oranges. You can't do it.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 15, 2006)

It would be like comparing the Flash's speed to the Hulk's strength and saying that they match.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> You know what that reminds me of?
> 
> The girl beating the bodybuilder.



Uh huh


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

?clair said:
			
		

> Renegade: Saying  that Vegeta's Ki matches Hulks strength is like comparing apples and oranges. You can't do it.


You can compare them in terms of their destructive capabilities.



			
				Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> It would be like comparing the Flash's speed to the Hulk's strength and saying that they match.


Was it not you who recently said this?:



			
				Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Vegeta's ki is greater than Hulk's strength in destructive capabilities.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> You can compare them in terms of their destructive capabilities.



But you can't say Vegeta is a match for the Hulk just because he has more ki.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> But you can't say Vegeta is a match for the Hulk just because he has more ki.


Ugh.

The Hulk has *WAY* more strength than Vegeta (i'm assuming).

Vegeta has *WAY* more ki than The Hulk.

Vegeta's ki matches The Hulk's strength. Understand what i'm saying now?


----------



## Envy (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> You can compare them in terms of their destructive capabilities.
> 
> 
> Was it not you who recently said this?:



Wrong. Just because The Hulk can lift 150 billion tons doesn't mean he can destroy 150 billion tons. 

Just like Vegeta made a crack ass explosion using all of his ki during his fight with buu

Ki=/=Strength. End of story. There is no "Matching" or "comparing"


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

And what about the time the Grey Hulk smashed that planetoid?


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Ugh.
> 
> The Hulk has *WAY* more strength than Vegeta (i'm assuming).
> 
> ...



Ah, here's the clincher...

"But can Vegeta beat Hulk AND Juggernaut?"

In the end, we're not trying to find out if Vegeta can beat Hulk... or match him... we're trying to find out if he can beat Juggs and Hulk.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

?clair said:
			
		

> Wrong. Just because The Hulk can lift 150 billion tons doesn't mean he can destroy 150 billion tons.


Exactly.



			
				?clair said:
			
		

> Just like Vegeta made a crack ass explosion using all of his ki during his fight with buu


He concentrated his ki and made it more dense so that it would not spread and destroy earth. Kind of like a neutron star having the same mass of a regular star, but being much smaller and *much* more dense.


----------



## Kuya (Aug 15, 2006)

quick question 2 the experts. is Vegeta capable of taking Juggs helmet off???


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Ah, here's the clincher...
> 
> "But can Vegeta beat Hulk AND Juggernaut?"
> 
> In the end, we're not trying to find out if Vegeta can beat Hulk... or match him... we're trying to find out if he can beat Juggs and Hulk.


Yes, i've came to terms with that quite some time ago.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Ah, here's the clincher...
> 
> "But can Vegeta beat Hulk AND Juggernaut?"



Yes yes he can beat them by blasting him off the damn planet. That is the ONLY damn way for Vegeta winning. (especially against Juggernaut)


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Kuya said:
			
		

> quick question 2 the experts. is Vegeta capable of taking Juggs helmet off???



Why would it matter? Vegeta doesn't have any psychic attacks.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Aug 15, 2006)

Kuya said:
			
		

> quick question 2 the experts. is Vegeta capable of taking Juggs helmet off???


More than likely.  Does Vegeta have some sort of psychic mind-control powers I don't know about?

Taking off Jugg's helmet doesn't affect his invunerablity at all, just makes him vunerable to mind control.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

> Yes yes he can beat them by blasting him off the damn planet. That is the ONLY damn way for Vegeta winning. (especially against Juggernaut)



And then they fucking come after him after the planet is gone only to find a corpse with exploded eyes floating through space. 

"What a dick. Blew up the planet and can't even live in space." The Juggernaut will say.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yes yes he can beat them by blasting him off the damn planet. That is the ONLY damn way for Vegeta winning. (especially against Juggernaut)



jackass, juggernaut cannot be moved. *Give it up, Try again*


----------



## Kuya (Aug 15, 2006)

wait.... he doesn't get his powers from his helmet? i'm lost.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yes yes he can beat them by blasting him off the damn planet. That is the ONLY damn way for Vegeta winning. (especially against Juggernaut)



How can Vegeta blast Juggernaut of the planet.... a guy who's IMMOVABLE unless he desires to move.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Kuya said:
			
		

> wait.... he doesn't get his powers from his helmet? i'm lost.



He gets his powers from a god. The helmet is only to stop mind control.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> How can Vegeta blast Juggernaut of the planet.... a guy who's IMMOVABLE unless he desires to move.



I can tell you have not read much on the Juggernaut. He has been tossed around alot even disabled. 

Do not listen to the hype Juggernaut can NOT be stopped but he can be Contained and thrown very far.


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> No, he's saying Bardock isn't canon smartass.




Bardock was Goku's dad, you idiot and he premiered in that movie, which stupid people here are saying isn't canon. Therefore, according to them Bardock =/= Goku's dad.


----------



## Envy (Aug 15, 2006)

Last I checked, you don't control ki when you're fucking dead.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> *Give it up, Try again*


Kind of a contradictory statement there, don't you think?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> Bardock was Goku's dad, you idiot and he premiered in that movie, which stupid people here are saying isn't canon. Therefore, according to them Bardock =/= Goku's dad.



Do you know what canon means?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> How can Vegeta blast Juggernaut of the planet.... a guy who's IMMOVABLE unless he desires to move.


That logic makes absolutely no sense, and you know it. Considering he was moved by The Hulk.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> I can tell you have not read much on the Juggernaut. He has been tossed around alot even disabled.
> 
> Do not listen to the hype Juggernaut can NOT be stopped but he can be Contained and thrown very far.



Sure buddy, whatever helps you sleeps at night


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

So my point is the strength matter is unimportant in this battle. So please do not say a character can not do something with no proof at all.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> He concentrated his ki and made it more dense so that it would not spread and destroy earth. Kind of like a neutron star having the same mass of a regular star, but being much smaller and *much* more dense.



Except if a neutron star got anywhere near the Earth its gravity would tear the planet apart.

And neutron stars don't just disappear, either.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> So my point is the strength matter is unimportant in this battle. So please do not say a character can not do something with no proof at all.



Speak to yourself


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> So my point is the strength matter is unimportant in this battle. So please do not say a character can not do something with no proof at all.



LOL! A tank weighs a ton...


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Do you know what canon means?



Are you serious because that isn't funny at all.

We see Bardock in a movie, which Toriyama had no affiliations with, but nevertheless it DID happen. Some idiots here are saying it didn't(I don't know about you, all you did was make useless comments and questions). I'm just saying this event did occur whether if it was in the manga or not.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 15, 2006)

I guess you don't know what canon means.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Only the manga is officially canon.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Except if a neutron star got anywhere near the Earth its gravity would tear the planet apart.
> 
> And neutron stars don't just disappear, either.


I know they don't just disappear, matter can never just disappear. But ki blasts are not matter, they are energy. 

W/e though, it was just a metaphor.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> Are you serious because that isn't funny at all.
> 
> We see Bardock in a movie, which Toriyama had no affiliations with, but nevertheless it DID happen. Some idiots here are saying it didn't(I don't know about you, all you did was make useless comments and questions). I'm just saying this event did occur whether if it was in the manga or not.



It occured in the movie. Which isn't canon. 

The events of that movie are not canon. 

Bardock IS canon. Well, he is NOW because Toriyama saw the movie and liked the character. He never thought about doing that before the movie, so he put in a brief appearance of Bardock in the manga. JUST Bardock. Not the events.

So the events aren't canon.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 15, 2006)

_I'm just saying this event did occur whether if it was in the manga or not._

I don't think any movie is canon DBZ-wise. If it's not in the manga, it's usually not canon unless AT either says it's canon and/or incorporates it into the manga itself.


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Aug 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> I guess you don't know what canon means.



Guess again


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> Guess again



You didn't tell us what you think it means or give any indication that you know what it means.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> Are you serious because that isn't funny at all.
> 
> We see Bardock in a movie, which Toriyama had no affiliations with, but nevertheless it DID happen. Some idiots here are saying it didn't(I don't know about you, all you did was make useless comments and questions). I'm just saying this event did occur whether if it was in the manga or not.


Unless it's created by Toriyama, in other words; unless it's the manga, technically it's not canon. Although, even though some parts of the anime are filler, the parts that are not can be viewed as canon material, because it is usually closely interlaced with the manga. Not in all cases though.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 15, 2006)

Manga's the highest source of canon, and usually dictates the adaptions and the add-ons.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Bardock is technically canon, but the events of the movie are not.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> I know they don't just disappear, matter can never just disappear. But ki blasts are not matter, they are energy.
> 
> W/e though, it was just a metaphor.



Matter and energy are both subject to the laws of thermodynamics. They cannot be created or destroyed, for one. So if all that power was enough to destroy a planet, then where did the rest of it go?


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Speak to yourself



I am wondering if this guy has ever read a comic in his entire life with all of the mindless garbage you post and all.

Vegeta does not need strength t owin this.

Vegeta's only way of winning this is blowing Juugs of the damn planet. What is it that you are not getting?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Vegeta's only way of winning this is blowing Juugs of the damn planet. What is it that you are not getting?



How about the part where they don't die from that, but Vegeta does?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

What YOU'RE not getting is that Vegeta will not know that immediately. He'll first try for a HtH fight, and get clobbered. Even if he somehow avoids that, he'll then go for direct ki blasts, and have more chances to get clobbered. Even if he manages to blast one of them off the planet (assuming they don't simply deflect the blast or force their way though it) the other one will attack him and kill him.

Not to mention Juggernaut could just walk back to the planet.


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> You didn't tell us what you think it means or give any indication that you know what it means.



Alright....since you were too dumb enough to find it in my explanations...

In my own words:
Canon- "Official" material(in this case, the manga) created by the source maker, Akira Toriyama.
Non-canon: "UN-official" material(in this case, movie, which arguably occurred in the DBZ verse) unless agreed to upon by the source maker, Akira Toriyama.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> How about the part where they don't die from that, but Vegeta does?



How in the hell is Vegeta going to die when Juggs and Hulk will be the one's in Space before they know it?


----------



## Envy (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> How in the hell is Vegeta going to die when Juggs and Hulk will be the one's in Space before they know it?



He's thinking that you're saying about Vegeta blowing the planet up. Hulk and Juggs can live in space, while Vegeta cannot

Suzumebachi: He's saying using a singular ki blast to blast them INTO space, not take out the planet.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

> Suzumebachi: He's saying using a singular ki blast to blast them INTO space, not take out the planet.



I see. That's still not a win though, as they don't die from that.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> How in the hell is Vegeta going to die when Juggs and Hulk will be the one's in Space before they know it?



A blast like that would blow up the planet. 

Plus, as Mike said, Juggs will walk back to the planet.




			
				Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> Alright....since you were too dumb enough to find it in my explanations...
> 
> In my own words:
> Canon- "Official" material(in this case, the manga) created by the source maker, Akira Toriyama.
> Non-canon: "UN-official" material(in this case, movie, which arguably occurred in the DBZ verse) unless agreed to upon by the source maker, Akira Toriyama.



By your definition, you're saying that the Bardock movie wasn't canon.

And I bet you didn't know that Bardock was in the manga.


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> By your definition, you're saying that the Bardock movie wasn't canon.



.....except for some instances, like "The Future of Trunks", which explains Trunks' future and the Androids that plagued his world. What would be the point of that if people didn't accept it as truth? Doesn't make sense at all.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> .....except for some instances, like "The Future of Trunks", which explains Trunks' future and the Androids that plagued his world. What would be the point of that if people didn't accept it as truth? Doesn't make sense at all.



The point would be to be fucking filler.

By your definition, that movie isn't canon either.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> I am wondering if this guy has ever read a comic in his entire life with all of the mindless garbage you post and all.
> 
> Vegeta does not need strength t owin this.
> 
> Vegeta's only way of winning this is blowing Juugs of the damn planet. What is it that you are not getting?



Juggernaut cannot be moved stupid ass. Juggernaut cannot die stupid ass. 

Juggernaut cannot be moved stupid ass. *Don't Try again, Please Quit*


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> A blast like that would blow up the planet.
> 
> Plus, as Mike said, Juggs will walk back to the planet.



You need to go update your self before you debate if you know nothing about the characters. Dragonball characters can manipulate their Ki which ever way they want. Have you see nCell shoot a planet destroying kamehameha into space, Vegeta also shot his Final Flash into space. Like I said they will be out in space or on another planet.

Juggs walking back! that will take forever Vegeta would have lived and died by the time he comes back.

Vegeta wins that way.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

> You need to go update your self before you debate if you know nothing about the characters.



You're an idiot and always say that no one knows anything about comics or DBZ but you. How fanboy are you?



> Juggs walking back! that will take forever Vegeta would have lived and died by the time he comes back.
> 
> Vegeta wins that way.



Thats not a win because Vegeta dies and Juggernaut doesn't.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

he's using bits and peices of our arguments and seeing how he wants to see it. 

No point in debating with this fool any longer


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

It wouldn't take that long, the closer Juggernaut gets the more the Earth's gravitational field will affect him, and the faster he'll be moving.


----------



## not TekJounin (Aug 15, 2006)

These threads that drag out for over 20 pages should be closed.....There is rarely ANY end in sight, and people will just stick to their opinions and [fanboyism].


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Juggernaut cannot be moved stupid ass.
> 
> Juggernaut cannot be moved stupid ass. *Don't Try again, Please Quit*



What about Onslaught punching Juggs ass clear across North America!:amazed  did not see any  immovable object their. Or how about Spiderman trapping Juggernaut under a pile of buildings and NOT moving for 8 Months.:amazed 

I will not insult you because it is not your fault, it is our school systems which are failing!


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Onslaught is a cosmic, and the Spider-man thing was just stupid writing.

Besides, if Juggernaut gets caught in a blast, he can just turn around and start walking back towards the origin of the blast, which will negate its kinetic effects and bring him back toward earth.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> What about Onslaught punching Juggs ass clear across North America!:amazed  did not see any  immovable object their. Or how about Spiderman trapping Juggernaut under a pile of buildings and NOT moving for 8 Months.:amazed
> 
> I will not insult you because it is not your fault, it is our school systems which are failing!



I like your rep bar.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Besides, if Juggernaut gets caught in a blast, he can just turn around and start walking back towards the origin of the blast, which will negate its kinetic effects and bring him back toward earth.



OWNED


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 15, 2006)

Again, Phenomenol, Vegeta doesn't even compare to Onslaught.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> You're an idiot and always say that no one knows anything about comics or DBZ but you. How fanboy are you?
> 
> *Obviously you don't because you keep insulting me when yet you keep throwing innacurate data that we have been over. Then you say I am wrong becasue I proove you wrong, You change tunes faster than I do my socks.*
> 
> Thats not a win because Vegeta dies and Juggernaut doesn't.



How in the hell does Vegeta die?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

> Obviously you don't because you keep insulting me when yet you keep throwing innacurate data that we have been over. Then you say I am wrong becasue I proove you wrong, You change tunes faster than I do my socks.



Riiiiiiiight.




> How in the hell does Vegeta die?



You're the one who said he dies. READ THE THREAD JUST BECAUSE I PROVED YOU WRONG!!! BWHAHAHAHAHA!!


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Onslaught is a cosmic, and the Spider-man thing was just stupid writing.
> 
> Besides, if Juggernaut gets caught in a blast, he can just turn around and start walking back towards the origin of the blast, which will negate its kinetic effects and bring him back toward earth.



No he can not! if he sure as hell could not roll of a punch that was going to North america, he is not getting of a blast that is destroying a planet. He won't get off till it is too late.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

I don't care what this jackass thinks. 

He has to be retarded or something.

The proof is in the comic and we all bought proof from both sides of the debate and he ignores all common sense and makes up his fairy-tale truth. 

There's no point in going further because He's only using what proof suits him


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Matter and energy are both subject to the laws of thermodynamics. They cannot be created or destroyed, for one.


Well doesn't light and heat dissipate? What happens to a fire when it gets put out? I'm not too knowledgable on this subject so i'm not exactly sure, but I always thought energy was able to decompose.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> So if all that power was enough to destroy a planet, then where did the rest of it go?


That's probably a question that should be asked to AT. I don't understand the physics behind a ki blast so I couldn't perfectly answer the question. All I know is that the power of his blast was contained so that it's distruction would be concentrated on a certain area.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> The proof is in the comic and we all bought proof from both sides of the debate and he ignores all common sense and makes up his fairy-tale truth.



Welcome to a DBZ battledome thread.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> I don't care what this jackass thinks.
> 
> He has to be retarded or something.
> 
> ...



Please show me what proof you have brought? 

I doubt that you ever read a comic in your life!


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Please show me what proof you have brough?
> 
> I doubt that you ever read a comic in your life!



I posted loads of proof before. You just choose not to acknowledge it. *Idiot*


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Onslaught is a cosmic, and the Spider-man thing was just stupid writing.


Stupid writing or not, it was a canon event and it did happen.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Stupid writing or not, it was a canon event and it did happen.



Just like Vegeta's ultimate attack ONLY creating a small crater...

But let me guess, you'll use an excuse to dispute that with evidence NOT written by the creator, huh?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Just like Vegeta's ultimate attack ONLY creating a small crater...
> 
> But let me guess, you'll use an excuse to dispute that with evidence NOT written by the creator, huh?


Well, I apologize that I don't personally know Toriyama, to ask him what the exact physics behind a ki blast like the Desperate Attack are.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Well doesn't light and heat dissipate? What happens to a fire when it gets put out? I'm not too knowledgable on this subject so i'm not exactly sure, but I always thought energy was able to decompose.



Energy doesn't 'decompose', it just goes elsewhere.

Say you have a grenade, and it explodes. The energy in the grenade is distributed many different ways.

Some of it is kinetic energy, and contributes to creating blast damage. Some of it is visible light, and produces the bright explosion. Some of it is sound, and creates the boom. Some of it is heat, and heats up things nearby. All that energy, after the explosion, is simply released back into the environment in one way or another.



> That's probably a question that should be asked to AT. I don't understand the physics behind a ki blast so I couldn't perfectly answer the question. All I know is that the power of his blast was contained so that it's distruction would be concentrated on a certain area.



Which is impossible.

You claim there is enough energy to destroy a planet in that blast.

Where could it have gone?

Kinetic force? Of course not, it only created a large crater. Nowhere near planet - destroying.

Visible light? It would be brigher than the core of the sun and stay that way for years.

Sound? The sonic waves would tear the earth apart.

Heat? The Earth would melt.

None of that happened. The blast effects were confined to a radius of only a few kilometers.

The only explanation was that it was NOT planet - destroying.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> I posted loads of proof before. You just choose not to acknowledge it. *Idiot*



My god, you have posted nothing but your bias opinions.

If you know the Hulk well you know Hulk loses more often than not. Its as simple as that. I don't particularly care if some DB hater states otherwise since they are only picking Hulk and Juggs out of bias and ignorance.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Stupid writing or not, it was a canon event and it did happen.



And tons of other canon events show that Juggernaut could have easily escaped in way less time than he did. You can try to rationalize it, but it's clearly not the trend.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> My god, you have posted nothing but your bias opinions.
> 
> If you know the Hulk well you know Hulk loses more often than not. Its as simple as that. I don't particularly care if some DB hater states otherwise since they are only picking Hulk and Juggs out of bias and ignorance.


The pot calling the kettle what now?


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> My god, you have posted nothing but your bias opinions.
> 
> If you know the Hulk well you know Hulk loses more often than not. Its as simple as that. I don't particularly care if some DB hater states otherwise since they are only picking Hulk and Juggs out of bias and ignorance.



I love DBZ. I hate clueless jackasses like you


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Which is impossible.
> 
> You claim there is enough energy to destroy a planet in that blast.
> 
> ...


Maybe because he didn't actually *aim* it towards the planet. It was an explosion occuring on the *surface* of the planet. If he directed it towards earth, it would have destroyed it.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Well, I apologize that I don't personally know Toriyama, to ask him what the exact physics behind a ki blast like the Desperate Attack are.



Even newfound DBZ viewers can understand that a blast that is stronger than a "supposed" planet buster (Final Flash) should be strong enough to destroy a planet. Even if it wasn't ALL of his energy or he contained it somehow, we know that it was stronger than Final Flash due to the fact that Vegeta opted to use it in place of his Kamikaze blast. Why would you kill yourself if it wasn't?

So all we have to do is put two and two together and we have negative seven. WTF!?!?!


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> I love DBZ. I hate clueless jackasses like you



Sure don't sound like it.

How do you love DBZ or Comics for that matter, when your knowledge is flawed? 

Look at all ofyour post in this thread it has been bias towards Vegeta.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Sure don't sound like it.
> 
> How do you love DBZ or Comics for that matter, when your knowledge is flawed?
> 
> Look at all ofyour post in this thread it has been bias towards Vegeta.




Look at some of your posts. Not just in this thread, but every thread ever.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Sure don't sound like it.
> 
> How do you love DBZ or Comics for that matter, when your knowledge is flawed?
> 
> Look at all ofyour post in this thread it has been bias towards Vegeta.



     . Wait, you're serious


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Even newfound DBZ viewers can understand that a blast that is stronger than a "supposed" planet buster (Final Flash) should be strong enough to destroy a planet. Even if it wasn't ALL of his energy or he contained it somehow, we know that it was stronger than Final Flash due to the fact that Vegeta opted to use it in place of his Kamikaze blast. Why would you kill yourself if it wasn't?
> 
> So all we have to do is put two and two together and we have negative seven. WTF!?!?!


Like I said:



			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> Maybe because he didn't actually aim it towards the planet. It was an explosion occuring on the surface of the planet. If he directed it towards earth, it would have destroyed it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Maybe because he didn't actually *aim* it towards the planet. It was an explosion occuring on the *surface* of the planet. If he directed it towards earth, it would have destroyed it.



An explosion of the effects seen would not destroy a planet, no matter how it was distributed. Even if it was detonated directly in the core of the planet, at the very most it would cause a few earthquakes.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> An explosion of the effects seen would not destroy a planet, no matter how it was distributed. Even if it was detonated directly in the core of the planet, at the very most it would cause a few earthquakes.


Just because the blast didn't *look* big, doesn't mean it didn't have the power to destroy the planet. considering the neutron star theory. It's size may have been small, but it doesn't mean the energy it contained was insufficient.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Yes it does, or else that energy would have done more damage. Energy can't just disappear.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Yes it does, or else that energy would have done more damage. Energy can't just disappear.


Not saying it disappeared. Since it wasn't directly *aimed* at the earth, most of the destructive energy was directed into space.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Um.... no it wasn't.

The explosion took the form of a dome that expanded and then dissipated.

No energy was ever seen flying into space.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Um.... no it wasn't.
> 
> The explosion took the form of a dome that expanded and then dissipated.
> 
> No energy was ever seen flying into space.


The dome expanded from the *surface* of the earth, half of the dome creating a crator on the earth, and the other half just expanded to open space.

Had it been actually *sent* towards the earth, it would have destroyed it.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

I'm going to sleep. I won't be missing much. Disagreements,

 Phenomenol's crap.  

 And Phenomenol.

 Juggernaut is Invincible, Immortal and Unmovable. Even if you don't want him to be. Cya later chump


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 15, 2006)

_Sound? The sonic waves would tear the earth apart._

Is it possible for sound waves of that kind of magnitude to rip the planet apart? If so, would there be anything that could produce such sound?

_Look at all ofyour post in this thread it has been bias towards Vegeta._

Actually, it should be 'against'. Biased towards (person) means favouring. Unless I'm mistaken, feel free to correct me, anyone.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Juggernaut is Invincible, Immortal and *Unmovable*.


Not unmovable, he's been moved...


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> I'm going to sleep. I won't be missing much. Disagreements,
> 
> Phenomenol's crap.
> 
> ...




Our school systems are failing us....


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Not unmovable, he's been moved...



Forgot. Vegeta still can't kill him. G'night


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Forgot. Vegeta still can't kill him. G'night



You post like your on Med!

Know one is debating about Vegeta killing Juggs, when is that going to get through your head *NO ONE CAN KILL JUGGERNAUT, and I MEAN NO ONE!!!*


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Is it possible for sound waves of that kind of magnitude to rip the planet apart? If so, would there be anything that could produce such sound?



Considering sound waves will propagate through matter, whether it's gas, liquid, or solid, sufficient sound waves could rip the earth apart.

As for what would produce something like that, I have no idea.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 15, 2006)

_Considering sound waves will propagate through matter, whether it's gas, liquid, or solid, sufficient sound waves could rip the earth apart._

Makes sense.

_As for what would produce something like that, I have no idea._

Well, in comics. . . ever hear of Black Bolt?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Considering sound waves will propagate through matter, whether it's gas, liquid, or solid, sufficient sound waves could rip the earth apart.
> 
> As for what would produce something like that, I have no idea.


Kind of like sound breaking glass. Just need strong enough sound waves to do it. Not sure if the sound waves produced from a ki blast would cause the earth to explode though. I highly doubt it. It's usually the heat, and kinetic energy of an explosion that does the most damage.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Well, in comics. . . ever hear of Black Bolt?



Good point, he could definitely do it.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> You post like your on Med!
> 
> Know one is debating about Vegeta killing Juggs, when is that going to get through your head *NO ONE CAN KILL JUGGERNAUT, and I MEAN NO ONE!!!*



Then why do you argue that Vegeta wins? A win is Vegeta killing Hulk and Juggernaut.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> You post like your on Med!
> 
> Know one is debating about Vegeta killing Juggs, when is that going to get through your head *NO ONE CAN KILL JUGGERNAUT, and I MEAN NO ONE!!!*


Not unless he's subjected to a distructive ki blast capable of completely disintegrating his body.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Not unless he's subjecting to a distructive ki blast capable of completely disintegrating his body.



From which he will regenerate. Juggernaut can come back from nothingness.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Link removed

Here's a video of Vegeta's final attack.

As you can see, none of it went into space.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 15, 2006)

_Not unless he's subjecting to a distructive ki blast capable of completely disintegrating his body._

I sincerely doubt that.

Hell, he fought and regen'd from being an invunerable skeleton once.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Not unless he's subjecting to a distructive ki blast capable of completely disintegrating his body.



Power of Cytorrak, kid.

No ki blast will defeat a reality - warping cosmic's protection.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Then why do you argue that Vegeta wins? A win is Vegeta killing Hulk and Juggernaut.



The HULK can Die and Vegeta CAN KILL the Hulk with KI !

The Juggernaut Can NOT die so the only way for Vegeta defeating JUggs is Blasting him off the planet!

You CAN NOT KILL JUGGERNAUT! only way to beat him is remove him from play and disable him.

I thought you already knew this?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

He can't kill War Hulk. Celestial technology has given him a cosmic powerup.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> The HULK can Die and Vegeta CAN KILL the Hulk with KI !
> 
> The Juggernaut Can NOT die so the only way for Vegeta defeating JUggs is Blasting him off the planet!
> 
> ...



There is no remove from play, I don't know why you say there is.


----------



## exmorte (Aug 15, 2006)

Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Juggernaut traditionally possessed huge power, of mystical origin. He had tremendous physical strength, a total resistance to physical injury due to his mystic spell of invulnerability; an impenetrable force field that he could summon at will; and unlimited stamina. His spell also granted him unbreakable skin, therefore making his forcefield an added protection in case he did not wish for a certain attack to touch his physical body. Due to the mystical energies flowing through his body, he did not need to eat, breathe, or drink fluids.



Unbreakable skin, and a impenetrable force field? Could you really disentigrate him? I mean and a total resistance to injury. I dont think its possible to kill him at ALL, without removing the gem of cytorrak which is bonded to Jug's Soul. I dont think vegeta could remove something from Jugs Soul. So Since jugs cannot be killed this fight is either draw or win for Juggerhulk. Since there is no Draw option, the only one left is JUGGERHULK.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 15, 2006)

Most battles in the OB assume that the battle is to the death, is it not?


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

The thread creator said no such thing.

The thread creator OBVIOUSLY knew that Vegeta's only way of defeating Juggs is blasting him off the planet.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> The thread creator said no such thing.
> 
> The thread creator OBVIOUSLY knew that Vegeta's only way of defeating Juggs is blasting him off the planet.



Nor did the thread creator say that it wasn't a battle to the death.

You need to stop. You've done nothing but spew bullshit.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Nor did the thread creator say that it wasn't a battle to the death.
> 
> You need to stop. You've done nothing but spew bullshit.



Yes!! someone besides me has seen this. I can go to sleep happy now.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Nor did the thread creator say that it wasn't a battle to the death.
> 
> You need to stop. You've done nothing but spew bullshit.



So it works both way's then. How have I spewd crap?  You have yet to  refute anything...


----------



## Envy (Aug 15, 2006)

I like seeing how I was gone for 30 minutes and the thread gains three pages.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> So it works both way's then. How have I spewd crap?  You have yet to  refute anything...



Goku is class 100 because he took hits from Tao?


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Goku is class 100 because he took hits from Tao?



Damn, nice way to ignore all of the OTHER evidence that I posted to support that claim. You know you have no argument when you have to stoop so low. Go actually read what the hell I said you fool.

You don't know a damn thing about Comics anyway, you have yet to post a solid post with some substance pertaining to these characters. :amazed


----------



## Envy (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> You post like your on Med!
> 
> Know one is debating about Vegeta killing Juggs, when is that going to get through your head *NO ONE CAN KILL JUGGERNAUT, and I MEAN NO ONE!!!*



Just another post that proves you can't read for shit. Also, you're the one in the country with the failing educational system. 1) You can't even spell "no" right and 2) He said vegeta can't kill juggs. You just *agreed* with him.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

You said Goku beat him, which means he's stronger than Tao, who you believe to be a class 100 because he can toss a pillar.

If thats not retarded bullshit, I don't know what is.

And if I recall right, the bomb got him, not Goku.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 15, 2006)

I wonder how long this thread will be. . .


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

This is quoting you Phenomenol. YOU wrote this.




			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Suzumebachi said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

?clair said:
			
		

> Just another post that proves you can't read for shit. Also, you're the one in the country with the failing educational system. 1) You can't even spell "no" right and 2) He said vegeta can't kill juggernaught. You just *agreed* with him.




A minor error, everyone makes mistakes...

Yes I agreed with him because he is right!  IF YOU KNEW ANY DAMN THING YOU FOOL, ANY DAMN THING AT ALL THE JUGGERNAUT CAN NOT BE KILLED!!!!

That's why I agreed..

Don't worry it is not your faultm you will just be  another DAMN example!


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Link removed
> 
> Here's a video of Vegeta's final attack.
> 
> As you can see, none of it went into space.


The top half of it is going into open space...


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> You said Goku beat him, which means he's stronger than Tao, who you believe to be a class 100 because he can toss a pillar.
> 
> If thats not retarded bullshit, I don't know what is.
> 
> And if I recall right, the bomb got him, not Goku.



Alright now I am a believer, you are just a damn idiot who Bitches and moans over crap that does not even matter.

I used DAMN examples from Dragonball to Support how strong characters were LATER IN THE DRAGONBALL Z UNIVERSE!!!! 

You waste your posts and your time because all of your posts are unimportant. You have yet to provide a post with some DAMN SUBSTANCE! Put up or Shut up.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yes I agreed with him because he is right!  IF YOU KNEW ANY DAMN THING YOU FOOL, ANY DAMN THING AT ALL THE JUGGERNAUT CAN NOT BE KILLED!!!!
> 
> That's why I agreed..


I don't mean to bud in, but you kind of contradicted yourself there. He said Vegeta could defeat the Juggernaut, you agreed with him, but then you say the Juggernaut cannot be killed.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> The top half of it is going into open space...



You need to get your eyes checked, because all I see is a dome - shaped explosion and nothing going into space.


----------



## exmorte (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> A minor error, everyone makes mistakes...
> 
> Yes I agreed with him because he is right!  *IF YOU KNEW ANY DAMN THING YOU FOOL, ANY DAMN THING AT ALL THE JUGGERNAUT CAN NOT BE KILLED!!!!*
> 
> ...


So you agree that under the assumption that this is a fight to the death that vegeta would lose?

Or would it be a draw (which was not an option)?

Your arguements are based solely on the concept of a ring out, I will give you that if the ring out were an option vegeta has a *Chance* Of winning, however that is the only way for him to win.

Yet battledome fights tend to be to the death. Which does put juggernaut at an advantage in all battledome threads I know.


Also about the bold, I know Capslock is cruise control for awsome, yet it takes away from your credibility, just as little spelling errors that people nitpick at reduces your credibility. And in an argument Credibility is vital.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Alright now I am a believer, you are just a damn idiot who Bitches and moans over crap that does not even matter.
> 
> I used DAMN examples from Dragonball to Support how strongcharacters were LATER IN THE DRAGONBALL Z UNIVERSE!!!! I said LATER EASILY IN DBZ THEY ARE CLASS 100 and MORE.
> 
> You waste your posts and your time because all of your posts are unimportant. You have yet to provide a post with some DAMN SUBSTANCE! Put up or Shut up.



Read the thread.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You need to get your eyes checked, because all I see is a dome - shaped explosion and nothing going into space.


... 

The bottom half of it is disintigrating the earth. The top half is visible, and expanding into open space...

What don't you understand? Maybe you're the one who needs to get his eyes checked.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> I don't mean to bud in, but you kind of contradicted yourself there. He said Vegeta could defeat the Juggernaut, you agreed with him, but then you say the Juggernaut cannot be killed.



No he SPECIFICALLY stated 



> Originally Posted by *?clair*
> He said vegeta can't kill juggernaught. You just agreed with him.



And he is right, because Vegeta can not kill the Juggernaut, Juggernaut can NOT DIE!

I can tell many of you have not read a damn Comic he is IMMORTAL DAMMIT!!!!!!!!


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you that Juggs can't die.

People are disagreeing with that Vegeta would win though.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Read the thread.



I just read the thread!,

All you do is insult people and the funny thing about you Suzumebachi you have NOT posted a post that has any substance at all.

That is alright you will just become a damn statistic and an example.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 15, 2006)

_He said Vegeta could defeat the Juggernaut, you agreed with him, but then you say the Juggernaut cannot be killed._

Well, defeat would translate as Juggernaut incapacitated -- buried under tons of rock for him to dig out of, for example.

Can the Juggernaut be defeated in this sense? Yes -- numerous times in  comics.

Can the Juggernaut be killed? You have to be more powerful than Cyttorak himself to do it.

Or you could just do it AOA style.

Where Juggernaut died due to his conflicting thoughts of fighting and non-violence. Literally.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> I just read the thread!,
> 
> All you do is insult people and the funny thing about you Suzumebachi you have NOT posted a post that has any substance at all.
> 
> That is alright you will just become a damn statistic and an example.



And what do you define as a post with "substance"?


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> And what do you define as a post with "substance"?



Anything not having the name Suzumebachi in it.

Seriously man, all you do is clown people.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Anything not having the name Suzumebachi in it.
> 
> Seriously man, all you do is clown people.



Man? Whaaa?

And you realize most of your posts in this thread were:

"No one reads comics but me!"


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> The bottom half of it is disintigrating the earth. The top half is visible, and expanding into open space...
> 
> What don't you understand? Maybe you're the one who needs to get his eyes checked.



Nothing is 'expanding into space'.

The explosion is dome - shaped, and expanding. Then it dissipates.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Nothing is 'expanding into space'.
> 
> The explosion is dome - shaped, and expanding. Then it dissipates.


Understand now?


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Man? Whaaa?
> 
> And you realize most of your posts in this thread were:
> 
> "No one reads comics but me!"



Listen If I said that I apologize, I only said that because people are making Mindless and stupid comments.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Understand now?



Except no.

The top half never went into space, it just grew larger and then faded out.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Except no.
> 
> The top half never went into space, it just grew larger and then faded out.


Omg, it's like explaining something to a five year old.

I said *open* space, meaning air, meaning the atmosphere, meaning not disintigrating the earth. Capiche?!


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Do you realize that if enough energy to destroy a planet was released into the atmosphere, it would vaporize the whole thing, and a good chunk of the planet as well?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Do you realize that if enough energy to destroy a planet was released into the atmosphere, it would vaporize the whole thing, and a good chunk of the planet as well?


DBZ Planet destroying attacks need to be launched directly at the planet, moving towards the core, driving it's way through the planet, then causing it to explode. 

The desperate attack just exploded on the surface of the earth, with half expanding into the air, and the other half taking a chunk out of it. If it was launched at the planet, it would have destroyed it.


----------



## Envy (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> DBZ Planet destroying attacks need to be launched directly at the planet, moving towards the core, driving it's way through the planet, then causing it to explode.
> 
> The desperate attack just exploded on the surface of the earth, with half expanding into the air, and the other half taking a chunk out of it. If it was launched at the planet, it would have destroyed it.




That's like saying you drop 10000 hydrogen bombs on the surface, and dropping 10000 hydrogen bombs on the core. 

// No fucking shit the planet will explode.

It's not hard to blow up a planet from the core. Seriously. Do enough and the core will do the rest. It's not like trying to destroy the planet from tme surface. That takes shitloads more power.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> DBZ Planet destroying attacks need to be launched directly at the planet, moving towards the core, driving it's way through the planet, then causing it to explode.
> 
> The desperate attack just exploded on the surface of the earth, with half expanding into the air, and the other half taking a chunk out of it. If it was launched at the planet, it would have destroyed it.



Um, wrong.

Just a quick eyeballing of that attack, I would put it at 150 megatons, max.

A single 150 megaton explosion, no matter where on or inside the earth it was detonated, would not come close to destroying it.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

?clair said:
			
		

> That's like saying you drop 10000 hydrogen bombs on the surface, and dropping 10000 hydrogen bombs on the core.
> 
> // No fucking shit the planet will explode.
> 
> It's not hard to blow up a planet from the core. Seriously. Do enough and the core will do the rest. It's not like trying to destroy the planet from tme surface. That takes shitloads more power.


Yes, but an incredible amount of power is still needed to drive the ki blast into the planet.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Um, wrong.
> 
> Just a quick eyeballing of that attack, I would put it at 150 megatons, max.
> 
> A single 150 megaton explosion, no matter where on or inside the earth it was detonated, would not come close to destroying it.


It never showed a screen of the blast viewed from outer space. You're "_eyeballing_" isn't sufficient enough to advocate the size or power of the blast.


----------



## Envy (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Yes, but an incredible amount of power is still needed to drive the ki blast into the planet.
> 
> 
> It never showed a screen of the blast viewed from outer space. You're "_eyeballing_" isn't sufficient enough to advocate the size or power of the blast.



Do you want a manga scan? It's not that big. Seriously. Not even bigger than a city, and thus.. Not even an atomic bomb. So. Yeah. That's not going to destroy the planet.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Yes it is, since we can scale it with the desert around it and the area.

Besides, it would have to be about a million times bigger than that to even blow a good - sized chunk out of the planet.

What about this aren't you getting?

The attack, as shown, had nowhere near the power to destroy a planet.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 15, 2006)

?clair said:
			
		

> Do you want a manga scan? It's not that big. Seriously. Not even bigger than a city, and thus.. Not even an atomic bomb. So. Yeah. That's not going to destroy the planet.


If you have a screen of the blast being shown from outer space, i'd be glad to see it.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Yes it is, since we can scale it with the desert around it and the area.
> 
> Besides, it would have to be about a million times bigger than that to even blow a good - sized chunk out of the planet.
> 
> ...


Seeing the blast from the other z fighter's point of view doesn't help in determining how big it is. Unless there is a screen of it being shown from outer space, seeing it in comparison to the size of earth, it's undeterminable.


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Aug 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Um, wrong.
> 
> Just a quick eyeballing of that attack, I would put it at 150 megatons, max.
> 
> A single 150 megaton explosion, no matter where on or inside the earth it was detonated, would not come close to destroying it.



It was obvious that Vegeta was condensing that attack. Even after condensing it, it's as big as a frickin city!! If he let the entire blast go(it's called Final Explosion), the entire planet and every living being would have died instantly.

Like how Vegeta narrowed his final flash when he aimed it at Cell. That attack clearly and obviously had enough energy to destroy Earth.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Seeing the blast from the other z fighter's point of view doesn't help in determining how big it is. Unless there is a screen of it being shown from outer space, seeing it in comparison to the size of earth, it's undeterminable.



It couldn't have been more than 10 kilometers wide. It simply didn't expand enough to be any larger.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> It was obvious that Vegeta was condensing that attack. Even after condensing it, it's as big as a frickin city!! If he let the entire blast go(it's called Final Explosion), the entire planet and every living being would have died instantly.
> 
> Like how Vegeta narrowed his final flash when he aimed it at Cell. That attack clearly and obviously had enough energy to destroy Earth.



I thought we went over this already.

If that blast had enough energy to destroy the earth, then where did all of the extra energy go?

Oh, BTW, it's a good thing Vegeta is not up against you - know - who:

Link removed

Just wanted to share that video.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> There is no remove from play, I don't know why you say there is.


Yes there is.It was never stated that battle feild removal WASN'T a win.You need to shut up and read the first post before you go shooting your mouth off.And unless Juggs is fighting someone higher up than Cytorrak than you can't kill him and anyone using him in a match either must allow BFR or it's a no win situation.If there's no BFR then Vegeta could just leave and it would be a draw.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 16, 2006)

The attack had planet destroying wheither you like it or not.Freeza could destroy a planet.That's an inarguable fact.Vegeta in the Boo saga was many times stronger than Freeza.That's an inarguable fact.Vegeta used all his energy in his final attack.That's an inarguable fact.And since DBZ and power levels ARE linear you CAN'T argue against that unless your blatanly ignoring facts like some people on this thread.Juggs can be moved.We've seen him being moved by less than planet destroying force before.And unless your arguing that Onslaught could destroy the planet with a punch then Vegeta's blasts would have more force behind it.It doesn't matter if it fits into physics since as we all know comic physics=/=real world physics.This is a thread that has a guy who can't be hurt because of magic.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

Onslaught probably could destroy the planet with a punch.

And you can't just ignore physics whenever they don't support your argument.


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Aug 16, 2006)

If there's no BFR and Vegeta left, then that'd be a loss because he gave up, not a draw.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> The attack had planet destroying wheither you like it or not.Freeza could destroy a planet.That's an inarguable fact.Vegeta in the Boo saga was many times stronger than Freeza.That's an inarguable fact.Vegeta used all his energy in his final attack.That's an inarguable fact.And since DBZ and power levels ARE linear you CAN'T argue against that unless your blatanly ignoring facts like some people on this thread.Juggs can be moved.We've seen him being moved by less than planet destroying force before.And unless your arguing that Onslaught could destroy the planet with a punch then Vegeta's blasts would have more force behind it.It doesn't matter if it fits into physics since as we all know comic physics=/=real world physics.This is a thread that has a guy who can't be hurt because of magic.



SuperBatman86 just owned this thread!!!!!!!


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Aug 16, 2006)

SuperBat I love you.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

So ignoring physics whenever it suits him constitutes 'owning' a thread?

He's just trying to dodge the main and most pressing question: Where did all that energy go?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 16, 2006)

He basically stated what I had already stated countless times: 

1) Frieza can destroy planets.

2) Vegeta >>>>>>> Frieza.

3) Vegeta can destroy planets.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> So ignoring physics whenever it suits him constitutes 'owning' a thread?
> 
> He's just trying to dodge the main and most pressing question: Where did all that energy go?



No he owned this thread, He owned the system and the so called physics!

I gave that man REP!!!!


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> He basically stated what I had already stated countless times:
> 
> 1) Frieza can destroy planets.
> 
> ...



Yet his 'final attack' was not planet - destroying.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> No he owned this thread, He owned the system and the so called physics!
> 
> I gave that man REP!!!!



You do know that your rep turns out null if you have negative rep yourself?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Yet his 'final attack' was not planet - destroying.


It was concentrated and densened so that it would not go completely out of control. If you don't like that explanation, take it up with AT or something. Because i'm sure he'd vouge that Vegeta SSJ-2 is able to destroy a planet.


----------



## Envy (Aug 16, 2006)

Sigh. Anyway. This is manga so it's *canon*. So don't complain. And really, I think this shows you how big the crater is. It's not bigger than an average metroplitan city.

Oh yes Renegade.. I'm sure you can control an attack when you're dead. </Sarcasm>


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> It was concentrated and densened so that it would not go completely out of control. If you don't like that explanation, take it up with AT or something. Because i'm sure he'd vouge that Vegeta SSJ-2 is able to destroy a planet.



Yet the actual events contradict that.


----------



## Kuya (Aug 16, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Juggernaut cannot be moved stupid ass. Juggernaut cannot die stupid ass.
> 
> Juggernaut cannot be moved stupid ass. *Don't Try again, Please Quit*



Did u see onslaught vs. juggs? or war hulk vs. juggs????


k besides that point. Are Hulk and Juggs even quick enough to land a punch on Vegeta? I would think that by the time their fist is in midway of landing, he would have already moved behind them and have a palm full of ki ready to unload on either juggs or hulk.


----------



## Envy (Aug 16, 2006)

Kuya said:
			
		

> Did u see onslaught vs. juggs? or war hulk vs. juggs????
> 
> 
> k besides that point. Are Hulk and Juggs even quick enough to land a punch on Vegeta? I would think that by the time their fist is in midway of landing, he would have already moved behind them and have a palm full of ki ready to unload on either juggs or hulk.




Onslaught is a cosmic being, hulk was war hulk. Unlimited strength. Both are hacked.


----------



## Kuya (Aug 16, 2006)

?clair said:
			
		

> Onslaught is a cosmic being, hulk was war hulk. Unlimited strength. Both are hacked.



i was referring to who i was quoting. he/she said that Juggs CAN't Be moved. and i was saying that Onslaught AND War Hulk were both able to move Juggs.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I thought we went over this already.
> 
> If that blast had enough energy to destroy the earth, then where did all of the extra energy go?
> 
> ...



That video is rubbish

ss4 Gogeta wouldn't survive two punches from Popeye let alone Vegeta


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 16, 2006)

Kuya said:
			
		

> Did u see onslaught vs. juggs? or war hulk vs. juggs????
> 
> 
> k besides that point. Are Hulk and Juggs even quick enough to land a punch on Vegeta? I would think that by the time their fist is in midway of landing, he would have already moved behind them and have a palm full of ki ready to unload on either juggs or hulk.



I've already been corrected on that. Phenomenol is just the pure essence of jackass.  
*To cut this really short. Is Vegeta powerful enough to blast Juggernaut clean off the planet*


----------



## EvilMoogle (Aug 16, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> *To cut this really short. Is Vegeta powerful enough to blast Juggernaut clean off the planet*



I would think he is.  Jugg's has been knocked around by the Thing before, you can deflect his momentum.  It would probably take a few attacks before Vegeta puzzles out how to manage it though.

So, if you consider knocking Juggs off the planet a "win" for Vegeta, he could win in this manner.

But would he choose to?  It seems rather out of character for him to try to win by a technicality.  I think it's more likely he'd continue to try to pound Juggs with various strengths of KI blasts before finally running down on energy.  He'd probably also blow himself up in a last-ditch attempt to get a double-KO.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 16, 2006)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> I would think he is.  Jugg's has been knocked around by the Thing before, you can deflect his momentum.  It would probably take a few attacks before Vegeta puzzles out how to manage it though.
> 
> So, if you consider knocking Juggs off the planet a "win" for Vegeta, he could win in this manner.
> 
> But would he choose to?  It seems rather out of character for him to try to win by a technicality.  I think it's more likely he'd continue to try to pound Juggs with various strengths of KI blasts before finally running down on energy.  He'd probably also blow himself up in a last-ditch attempt to get a double-KO.



Plus someone already said Juggernaut could walk back


----------



## Sasori (Aug 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Oh, BTW, it's a good thing Vegeta is not up against you - know - who:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> Just wanted to share that video.



Best. Video. Ever.

lol and the Popeye/Mario one after it wos fucking hilarious.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Onslaught probably could destroy the planet with a punch.
> 
> And you can't just ignore physics whenever they don't support your argument.


I can when the manga does.And how ISN'T his attack using every ounce of strength planet destroying?


----------



## Envy (Aug 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> I can when the manga does.And how ISN'T his attack using every ounce of strength planet destroying?



Where in the manga does it state that is defies the laws of physics, dumbass.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 16, 2006)

?clair said:
			
		

> Where in the manga does it state that is defies the laws of physics, dumbass.


The fact that the planet is still there or that a bunny man could live on the moon or that Goku's staff can extend to any length jack-ass.


----------



## kapsi (Aug 16, 2006)

Comics also defy laws of physics but what's the point


----------



## Envy (Aug 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> The fact that the planet is still there or that a bunny man could live on the moon or that Goku's staff can extend to any length jack-ass.




Like you said, the manga *stated* it. So unless you can show me a fucking scan of that, stfu.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 16, 2006)

?clair said:
			
		

> Sigh. Anyway. This is manga so it's *canon*. So don't complain. And really, I think this shows you how big the crater is. It's not bigger than an average metroplitan city.
> 
> Oh yes Renegade.. I'm sure you can control an attack when you're dead. </Sarcasm>


I will answer with the same thing I said before, because apparently you didn't read it:



			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> If you have a screen of the blast being shown *from outer space*, i'd be glad to see it.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 16, 2006)

?clair said:
			
		

> Like you said, the manga *stated* it. So unless you can show me a fucking scan of that, stfu.



SuperBatman86 is right. Eclair you are just nitpicking and need to relax, Comics and Manga Defy real world physics.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 16, 2006)

No one's floating from Earth, however.


----------



## konflikti (Aug 16, 2006)

Here's couple more manga scans of the infamous crater:


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> I can when the manga does.And how ISN'T his attack using every ounce of strength planet destroying?



I don't know, maybe because..... *it didn't destroy the planet?*


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> The fact that the planet is still there or that a bunny man could live on the moon or that Goku's staff can extend to any length jack-ass.



And this somehow means conservation of energy doesn't apply?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 16, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Here's couple more manga scans of the infamous crater:


Very well, I will concede. That *is* a pretty small crater.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Here's couple more manga scans of the infamous crater:



Meteor crater in Arizona is bigger than that. Sure didn't have the power to destroy the planet.

Everyone keeps ignoring the fact that if planet - destroying energies were released anywhere near the earth, it would smash it into rubble.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> superbatman86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The things he listed are to show that real world physics do not apply in certain cases. If we know this, who's to say it applies in terms of Vegeta's Final Attack.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> The things he listed are to show that real world physics do not apply in certain cases. If we know this, who's to say it applies in terms of Vegeta's Final Attack.



Because there's no evidence it doesn't?

You can't just ignore physics because a fictional world doesn't conform completely to physics, unless it logically follows that one principle repealed would invalidate another.

Besides, even if we accept that conservation of energy doesn't apply, it won't help your case.

If conservation of energy didn't apply, then energy could just appear and disappear at random. That could easily mean that DBZ characters don't have the power to destroy planets, the reason the planets were destroyed was because extra energy just appeared, and didn't come from the characters themselves.


----------



## kapsi (Aug 16, 2006)

You see, pink blasts are planet destroying while blue ones are just strong. It's because pink ones accelerate tachyons in the mini black holes at Planck's mass level.


----------



## Envy (Aug 16, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Very well, I will concede. That *is* a pretty small crater.




Manga is more canon than the anime, so it doesn't matter. I'll show what the manga's got. Not what the anime has.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 16, 2006)

Real Name: Cain Marko
Occupation: professional criminal
Identity: secret
Legal Status: American citizen with no criminal record as yet
Other Aliases: none
Place of Birth: Berkeley, Calif.
Marital Status: single
Known Relatives: Kurt Marko (father, a deceased), Marjorie Marko (mother, deceased), Sharon Xavier (stepmother, deceased), Charles F. Xavier (stepbrother)
Group Affiliation: frequent associate of Black Tom Cassidy
Base of Operations: Mobile
First Appearance: X-Men #12

History: Cain Marko is the son of Dr. Kurt Marko, an atomic researcher. Cain's parents separated and Cain was eventually sent to a boarding school. Kurt Marko's colleague, Dr. Brian Xavier, another atomic researcher, died in an accident, and Kurt Marko eventually married Xavier's widow Sharon for her great wealth. On marrying Sharon, Kurt Marko moved into her large Westchester County mansion, where he lived with her and her young son Charles. Cain, who had become a cruel and spiteful boy, came to live at the mansion as well.

Cain immediately began bullying his new stepbrother Charles. But Cain was often secretly beaten by his abusive father. Charles' vast telepathic powers were beginning to develop, and on one occasion he found himself experiencing the anguished thoughts and emotions of Cain after Cain had been beaten by his father. The inexperienced young Charles could not control or end his contact with Cain's mind at this time. Somehow Cain sensed that Charles was reading his mind and had discovered his secret shame. Cain believed that Charles had invaded his thoughts deliberately, and from then on Cain regarded Charles as his enemy. Cain was abusive to his stepbrother at every opportunity.

Getting into a disagreement with his father over money, Cain accidentally upset some explosive chemicals and caused a fire to engulf his father's home laboratory. Though Kurt Marko managed to rescue both Cain and Charles from the fire, he himself died of smoke inhalation. Sharon Xavier Marko had died sometime before, tormented by the lovelessness of her marriage to Marko. Cain Marko continued to live in the Xavier mansion, growing increasingly resentful of his stepbrother's scholastic and athletic achievements as wall as of his telepathic powers, which Xavier mastered as he grew older.

What happened to Marko after he left home is unclear. However, it is known that he became a mercenary and was eventually imprisoned in a Third World jail when the revolutionary forces he was fighting for were defeated. In the jail he became friends with a fellow mercenary, Black Tom Cassidy, who used his mutant powers to help them escape.

Later, Marko and Xavier found themselves serving together in the same U.S. military unit in Asia. Marko deserted under fire and Xavier went after him to bring him back. Xavier followed Marko into a cave that housed the lost secret temple of Cyttorak, a powerful mystical entity. Marko impulsively grabbed a glowing ruby from the lap of an idol and read the inscription (which mystically appeared to his mind to be in English): "Whosoever touches this gem shall possess the power of the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak. Henceforth, you who read these words shall become forevermore a human juggernaut." As Xavier watched, the gem's mystical power transformed Marko into a larger, superhuman being. Just then enemy high explosive bombardment caused a cave-in, and Marko was buried under several thousand tons of rock. Xavier survived and returned to his unit.

Marko, now the Juggernaut, eventually dug himself free with his newfound power and made his way to America to use his power to kill Xavier. He was defeated by Xavier and his original team of X-Men. Over the years the Juggernaut has clashed with Xavier and both the original and new teams of X-Men repeatedly. He has also formed a successful criminal partnership with his old friend Black Tom Cassidy.

More recently the sentient psionic being known as Onslaught, actually an amalgamation of the psyches of Xavier and Magneto, would-be world conqueror and mutant Master of Magnetism, ripped the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak from Juggernaut's body and imprisoned him within. Inside the jewel, Cain learned he was an avatar for Cyttorak. As such, the otherworldly entity sought to assume control of Juggernaut's form. But Cain, through sheer force of will, destroyed the evil god and returned to Earth, stronger than ever, but unable to fully control his amplified abilities.

Cyttorak was merely one of a pantheon of eight gods, all with earthbound avatars. These Exemplars enlisted the Juggernaut's aid in constructing a machine that would enslave the human race. As the Exemplars tended to in their final preparations, Cain withdrew deep into himself, where he clashed with Cytorrak. Charles entered his stepbrother's mind to aid him in the battle, but the Exemplar known as Bedlam sensed his presence and expelled him. Still, Charles' short stay in Juggernaut's head had helped Cain regain control of his psyche. After defeating Cyttorak, Juggernaut destroyed the Exemplars' God Machine. He then turned his attention to the avatars themselves, defeating each in turn.

Juggernaut again was cast as a hero when the sentient spaceship Prosh escaped the confines of a Celestial prison, returned to Earth and dispatched a group of disparate beings on a journey through time to uncover the keys to preserving human evolution. Besides Cain, Prosh's task force included Phoenix and Iceman, members of the X-Men; and Mystique and Toad, mutant terrorists. Their mission: Save the human race from a threat that might not manifest itself for millions of years. Juggernaut was shown that for all his physical strength, he long has lacked strength of character. Despite all his yearning for power, he has squandered his supernaturally enhanced abilities. When Prosh reassembled the members of his team in the present, they fought and defeated the enigmatic alien entity known as the Stranger, who sought to control the natural evolution of humans and mutants. If not acquiring a newfound respect for life and human dignity, at least Juggernaut gained a better sense of understanding for the mutant plight.

Height: 6 ft. 10 in.
Weight: 900 lbs.
Eyes: Blue
Here: red brown

Strength Level: The Juggernaut possesses Class 100 strength, enabling him to lift (press) over 100 tons. The Juggernaut is said to be unstoppable, and the upper limit to his strength is not known.

Known Superhuman Powers: The Juggernaut possesses untold power, mystical in nature, which enhances his strength to an as yet unknown degree and makes him a seemingly irresistible, unstoppable being. Once he begins to walk in a certain direction, no obstacle or force on Earth has been observed to be able to stop him. Apparently, only he can stop himself. Some obstacles (many tons of rock, for example) or forces (such as plasma-discharge cannons) may slow his pace considerably, but nothing has yet stopped him permanently from advancing.

Besides giving him vast superhuman strength, the mystical energy of Cyttorak gives the Juggernaut an extraordinary degree of resistance to all forms of injury. The Juggernaut can shield himself even further from injury by mentally surrounding himself with a force field. Enveloped by his force field, the Juggernaut has survived the fiery explosion of a truck transporting a huge quantity of oil without any injury whatsoever.
The Juggernaut can survive indefinitely without food, water, or oxygen. He is sustained by his mystical energies alone.

In the past the Juggernaut has temporarily possessed telepathic abilities and certain mystical powers, all of which he has since lost.

Limitations: The Juggernaut does have certain vulnerabilities. He can be affected by mystical forces of sufficient strength. Without his helmet and/or skullcap, both constructed of an unknown mystical metal, he is vulnerable to psionic attacks against his mind. Nimrod, a robot from the future of an alternate Earth, successfully attacked the Juggernaut's mind and nervous system with advanced weaponry producing tight-beam high-frequency sound waves and a synapse dislocate that jammed his neural impulses. However, had the Juggernaut used his force field, perhaps he might have proved invulnerable even to these futuristic weapons.

The Juggernaut once attempted to transform Black Tom Cassidy into a being like himself with the ruby of Cyttorek. The result was that both Marko and Cassidy were Juggernauts, but each had considerably less power than Marko had possessed when he was the sole Juggernaut. (Marko and Cassidy each claimed to have half Marko's previous power, but this is inaccurate, considering that the Juggernaut's previous power level was virtually immeasurable.) Marko finally regained his full power, and hurled the ruby into orbit so that no one else could ever use it.

Paraphernalia: The Juggernaut wears a helmet fashioned from an unknown mystical metal found in the dimension of Cyttorak. Wearing this helmet, the Juggernaut is able to resist all forms of psionic attack on his mind successfully. Recently, the Juggernaut constructed a skullcap from scraps of the metal he used to construct the helmet. He wears the skullcap under, his helmet. Hence, if his helmet is somehow removed in battle, the skullcap will provide him continued protection from psionic attacks on his mind.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I don't know, maybe because..... *it didn't destroy the planet?*


It doesn't mean that it couldn't.You need to stop arguing this because it's a FACT that he could destroy a planet.Get over it.Nothing you say can dispute this.Your argument was beaten before you even posted it.Unless your saying your right and Akira is wrong then he can destroy a planet.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And this somehow means conservation of energy doesn't apply?


Yes.Where does the rest of Goku's staff come from or go?It has to come from somewhere by the law of conversion of energy and matter.Unless it breaks that rule.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> It doesn't mean that it couldn't.You need to stop arguing this because it's a FACT that he could destroy a planet.Get over it.Nothing you say can dispute this.Your argument was beaten before you even posted it.Unless your saying your right and Akira is wrong then he can destroy a planet.



Then why didn't the attack destroy the planet?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Yes.Where does the rest of Goku's staff come from or go?It has to come from somewhere by the law of conversion of energy and matter.Unless it breaks that rule.



One example does not invalidate a physical principle.

If conservation of matter and energy didn't apply, life as we know it could not exist.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 16, 2006)

Yup Imovable


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> One example does not invalidate a physical principle.
> 
> If conservation of matter and energy didn't apply, life as we know it could not exist.


Aparantly not in the DB world.The Androids had didn't get tired ever.Doesn't matter how long or how many energy attacks they used in a fight they could always be at peak energy.Just like Kid Buu.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Then why didn't the attack destroy the planet?


Because he didn't want it to.Doesn't matter what you say he had the power to do it so him controling the blast is the only explanation.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Yup Imovable



The art looked new, was that classic Juggernaut or the depowered version?


----------



## Envy (Aug 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Because he didn't want it to.Doesn't matter what you say he had the power to do it so him controling the blast is the only explanation.



Tell me when you're dead how do you control a blast.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Aparantly not in the DB world.The Androids had didn't get tired ever.Doesn't matter how long or how many energy attacks they used in a fight they could always be at peak energy.Just like Kid Buu.



That doesn't invalidate an entire physical principle which life and the universe would depend upon to exist.

If scientists in real life discovered a perpetual motion machine, they wouldn't say "Well, I guess all the laws of physics that are essential to the universe are out the window," they would study it and try to figure out how it worked.

Most likely it was drawing energy from another dimension or something.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Because he didn't want it to.Doesn't matter what you say he had the power to do it so him controling the blast is the only explanation.



Except that's not an explanation at all.

You can't 'control' a planet - destroying blast so it only creates a small crater and there is no other damage. The energy has to go somewhere.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> The art looked new, was that classic Juggernaut or the depowered version?


That's classic.You can tell because Iceman is still only covered in ice not ice himself.This is is depowered


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Except that's not an explanation at all.
> 
> You can't 'control' a planet - destroying blast so it only creates a small crater and there is no other damage. The energy has to go somewhere.


Just like the extensions of Goku's staff have to go and come from some where?


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 16, 2006)

?clair said:
			
		

> Tell me when you're dead how do you control a blast.


He wasn't dead until after the attack ended.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That doesn't invalidate an entire physical principle which life and the universe would depend upon to exist.
> 
> If scientists in real life discovered a perpetual motion machine, they wouldn't say "Well, I guess all the laws of physics that are essential to the universe are out the window," they would study it and try to figure out how it worked.
> 
> Most likely it was drawing energy from another dimension or something.


It does actually prove that.Where does it come from?He created and destroyed matter thus breaking the law.We don't know how it does it just that it does.And since it hasn't happened in real life the point means nothing.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> That's classic.You can tell because Iceman is still only covered in ice not ice himself.This is is depowered



What issue was it?

The first scan.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Just like the extensions of Goku's staff have to go and come from some where?



Which is magic, not natural. Magic allows more liberal mechanisms, like energy - matter conversion and dimensional stuff.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> It does actually prove that.Where does it come from?He created and destroyed matter thus breaking the law.We don't know how it does it just that it does.And since it hasn't happened in real life the point means nothing.



Um, no, because conservation of matter and energy would still apply everywhere else in the universe, proof of that is that life and objects as we know them are still able to exist.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Um, no, because conservation of matter and energy would still apply everywhere else in the universe, proof of that is that life and objects as we know them are still able to exist.


Apparantly it doesn't in DB world.Goku's staff goes directly against it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 17, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Apparantly it doesn't in DB world.Goku's staff goes directly against it.



I already addressed that.

If it didn't apply, life as we know it would not be able to exist.

So it must apply.


----------



## iaido (Aug 17, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Not needing to sleep, eat, or breathe isn't really going to help in this. Unless Vegeta tries to choke him to death or something.
> 
> 
> What's this being compared to though? Has he ever faced an opponent as strong as Vegeta before? An opponent with the capability and power to destroy an entire planet with ease?
> ...


Just read the comics.  Vegeta can't harm Hulk or Juggs.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 17, 2006)

That's going to be the exact look on Vegeta's face when Juggernaut casually wades through his final flash.


----------



## RealaMoreno (Aug 17, 2006)

I read every page of this thread and I voted for Hulka nd Juggs.


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## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 17, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I already addressed that.
> 
> If it didn't apply, life as we know it would not be able to exist.
> 
> So it must apply.


Not really. Newtons Laws were shown to not apply to subatomic particles. This simply means that Newtons Laws turned out to only be applicable to a special case, and were not true for all cases. 

If I am not mistaken, Vegeta knows distructo disc. As far as I know, there has never been anything that can block that attack. I may be mistaken though.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 17, 2006)

Newtonian physics are just a model, they don't apply at relativistic velocities, for example. Einstienian physics are a much better model.

And kienzan would do jack shit to Juggernaut or War Hulk.


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## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 17, 2006)

> And kienzan would do jack shit to Juggernaut or War Hulk.


Kienzan = distructo disc right? I only mention it because it appeared to be the only attack in DBZ that people didn't even try defending against.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 17, 2006)

Yes. How it would get past Juggernaut's forcefield and msytical durability or War Hulk's Celestial enhancements is beyond me.


----------



## Dr.Douchebag (Aug 17, 2006)

endless mike could u get some scans for war hulk? pls? 
i just wanna see what he is like and u can show all them vegeta lovers what he's capable of


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 17, 2006)

I'll see what I can do.


----------



## Zer0_UchiHa (Aug 17, 2006)

Wow i read the entire thing, let me just say, i am more in love with the hulk and juggernaut than ever before. 

Ok now with regards to the debate of whether or not vegeta could beat hulk, ( i will say one at a time, 2 on 1 is a bit hard, still possible maybe? more on that later) let look at some important facts. 

Firstly, hulk has incredible regenerating abilities, thats been established, but what has been established in DBZ is that ki attacks like kamehameha and glaick gun can indeed disintegrate beings. Ki attacks has destroyed every particle of a bieng, so only, and only in that sense do i think that vegeta can beat the hulk. Physically he wouldnt really harm the hulk with just punching him, i personally believe that the hulk could never land a blow on vegeta, but at the same time, thuosands of blows by vegeta on the hulk would not harm him to any great extent. That is the hulk, he is virtually impervious to physical attacks. A ki attack however would be different, i feel that it would disintegrate hulk completely, no matter how much he can regenerate, if their is no molecule of him there, he cannot generate. Cell is the same, he reformed from just one molecule, buu can even reform from dust, hulk has been shown to be eaten by giant bugs and it takes him 11 mintues to completely reform. But he has to reform from something, with a ki attack he would be vaporised. That is the only way i can see vegeta beating hulk, no other way would be possible to defeat him. Granted i have seen the hulk is incredibly resistant to "beams" but he has been ripped down to his skeleton before from a beam attack. That said beam attack i feel is not as strong as the beam attacks in the dbz universe. The hulk managed to walk through the beam attack as his skin and muscle was being ripped off. Now if the beam attack was powerful enough i think it would have vaporised hulk before he could walk towards it. Vegeta in that sense has a lot more power in his ki beam attacks, so logically he could probably vaporise the hulk.

In regards to juggernaut, if indeed his forcefield prevents any beam attack, or even if beam attaks themselves do nothing against him, than vegeta has no way in winning this fight, unless he manages to throw him into space. Even then juggernaut wouldnt die, but he could be defeated, in the sense that he might not be able to stop his momentum when thrown into space, or even if he can, vegeta could just throw him in space again if he shuold manage to return.

I will just say one thing, different "universes" or impossible to compare characters. DIfferent stories work differently, galactus devours planets, could he devour juggernaut? would juggernaut live in his stomach forever? Answers like this never seem to make themselves knows becuase even though that "verse" is marvel, the stories are different. DBZ is not even close to marvel "universe" in any way shape or form, so we will never know how would win such fights. It seems juggernaut is stronger than hulk, but then sometimes hulk seems stronger. Throw in variables like galctus and everything goes out the window. In short i had a great time reading this thread, look forward to see how future debates turn out.


----------



## Zer0_UchiHa (Aug 17, 2006)

Wow i read the entire thing, let me just say, i am more in love with the hulk and juggernaut than ever before. 

Ok now with regards to the debate of whether or not vegeta could beat hulk, ( i will say one at a time, 2 on 1 is a bit hard, still possible maybe? more on that later) let look at some important facts. 

Firstly, hulk has incredible regenerating abilities, thats been established, but what has been established in DBZ is that ki attacks like kamehameha and glaick gun can indeed disintegrate beings. Ki attacks has destroyed every particle of a bieng, so only, and only in that sense do i think that vegeta can beat the hulk. Physically he wouldnt really harm the hulk with just punching him, i personally believe that the hulk could never land a blow on vegeta, but at the same time, thuosands of blows by vegeta on the hulk would not harm him to any great extent. That is the hulk, he is virtually impervious to physical attacks. A ki attack however would be different, i feel that it would disintegrate hulk completely, no matter how much he can regenerate, if their is no molecule of him there, he cannot generate. Cell is the same, he reformed from just one molecule, buu can even reform from dust, hulk has been shown to be eaten by giant bugs and it takes him 11 mintues to completely reform. But he has to reform from something, with a ki attack he would be vaporised. That is the only way i can see vegeta beating hulk, no other way would be possible to defeat him. Granted i have seen the hulk is incredibly resistant to "beams" but he has been ripped down to his skeleton before from a beam attack. That said beam attack i feel is not as strong as the beam attacks in the dbz universe. The hulk managed to walk through the beam attack as his skin and muscle was being ripped off. Now if the beam attack was powerful enough i think it would have vaporised hulk before he could walk towards it. Vegeta in that sense has a lot more power in his ki beam attacks, so logically he could probably vaporise the hulk.

In regards to juggernaut, if indeed his forcefield prevents any beam attack, or even if beam attaks themselves do nothing against him, than vegeta has no way in winning this fight, unless he manages to throw him into space. Even then juggernaut wouldnt die, but he could be defeated, in the sense that he might not be able to stop his momentum when thrown into space, or even if he can, vegeta could just throw him in space again if he shuold manage to return.

I will just say one thing, different "universes" or impossible to compare characters. DIfferent stories work differently, galactus devours planets, could he devour juggernaut? would juggernaut live in his stomach forever? Answers like this never seem to make themselves knows becuase even though that "verse" is marvel, the stories are different. DBZ is not even close to marvel "universe" in any way shape or form, so we will never know how would win such fights. It seems juggernaut is stronger than hulk, but then sometimes hulk seems stronger. Throw in variables like galctus and everything goes out the window. In short i had a great time reading this thread, look forward to see how future debates turn out.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 17, 2006)

Zer0_UchiHa said:
			
		

> Wow i read the entire thing, let me just say, i am more in love with the hulk and juggernaut than ever before.
> 
> Ok now with regards to the debate of whether or not vegeta could beat hulk, ( i will say one at a time, 2 on 1 is a bit hard, still possible maybe? more on that later) let look at some important facts.



The debate is 2 on 1.



> Firstly, hulk has incredible regenerating abilities, thats been established, but what has been established in DBZ is that ki attacks like kamehameha and glaick gun can indeed disintegrate beings. Ki attacks has destroyed every particle of a bieng, so only, and only in that sense do i think that vegeta can beat the hulk. Physically he wouldnt really harm the hulk with just punching him,





> i personally believe that the hulk could never land a blow on vegeta,



It doesn't matter what you 'personally' believe, the fact is that the Hulk is not nearly as slow as most people think he is, and he tags fast beings all the time. DBZ characters in every fight have points where they stay in the same place for at least several seconds.

Check out his speed here:








Not to mention Hulk has his thunderclap, which is omnidirectional and would, at the very least, stun Vegeta for long enough so that he could manhandle him.



> but at the same time, thuosands of blows by vegeta on the hulk would not harm him to any great extent. That is the hulk, he is virtually impervious to physical attacks. A ki attack however would be different, i feel that it would disintegrate hulk completely, no matter how much he can regenerate, if their is no molecule of him there, he cannot generate. Cell is the same, he reformed from just one molecule, buu can even reform from dust, hulk has been shown to be eaten by giant bugs and it takes him 11 mintues to completely reform. But he has to reform from something, with a ki attack he would be vaporised. That is the only way i can see vegeta beating hulk, no other way would be possible to defeat him. Granted i have seen the hulk is incredibly resistant to "beams" but he has been ripped down to his skeleton before from a beam attack.



It wasn't a beam, it was telekinesis. Very strong telekinesis.



Note the quote "I have whipped away worlds!"

Besides, Hulk has taken tougher attacks unharmed, like the High Evolutionary's beam that was supposed to reduce him to component electrical charges.



> That said beam attack i feel is not as strong as the beam attacks in the dbz universe.



And your evidence for this is.....?



> The hulk managed to walk through the beam attack as his skin and muscle was being ripped off. Now if the beam attack was powerful enough i think it would have vaporised hulk before he could walk towards it. Vegeta in that sense has a lot more power in his ki beam attacks, so logically he could probably vaporise the hulk.



Except Hulk was vaporized in one future timeline and still regenerated, from just his spirit.

It's implied that the Hulk really can't be put down for good by anything short of a high - end reality warper.






> In regards to juggernaut, if indeed his forcefield prevents any beam attack, or even if beam attaks themselves do nothing against him, than vegeta has no way in winning this fight, unless he manages to throw him into space. Even then juggernaut wouldnt die, but he could be defeated, in the sense that he might not be able to stop his momentum when thrown into space, or even if he can, vegeta could just throw him in space again if he shuold manage to return.



Except he'll be ready for that and smack him down.



> I will just say one thing, different "universes" or impossible to compare characters. DIfferent stories work differently, galactus devours planets, could he devour juggernaut?



If he's not hungry, Galactus is above Cytorrak. So yes, he could harm Juggernaut.



> would juggernaut live in his stomach forever?



Galactus doesn't physically eat planets, he consumes their elemental energy.


> Answers like this never seem to make themselves knows becuase even though that "verse" is marvel, the stories are different. DBZ is not even close to marvel "universe" in any way shape or form, so we will never know how would win such fights. It seems juggernaut is stronger than hulk, but then sometimes hulk seems stronger. Throw in variables like galctus and everything goes out the window. In short i had a great time reading this thread, look forward to see how future debates turn out.



Keep in mind this isn't ordinary Hulk, this is War Hulk, who is way stronger than the normal Hulk.


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 17, 2006)

Taking into account the above comments, surely this is a stalemate. Juggernaut and hulk can't be harmed, Vegeta is not slow enough to be caught.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 17, 2006)

Vegeta can die of old age.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 17, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> Taking into account the above comments, surely this is a stalemate. Juggernaut and hulk can't be harmed, Vegeta is not slow enough to be caught.



Two words: Thunder Clap.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 17, 2006)

I'll up you one: Double Thunder Clap.


----------



## The Sentry (Aug 17, 2006)

vegeta and goku are 2 fast 4 the hulk. The hulk couldnt even land a punch on spiderman. And if spidermans punches could subdue the hulk, Goku and Vegetas could hurl him


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## SoulTaker (Aug 17, 2006)

Sarutobi700 said:
			
		

> vegeta and goku are 2 fast 4 the hulk. The hulk couldnt even land a punch on spiderman. And if spidermans punches could subdue the hulk, Goku and Vegetas could hurl him



You're failing to see that this is a different more powerful Hulk,War Hulk.He is probably the strongest incarnation of Hulk outside of Maestro.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 17, 2006)

Sarutobi700 said:
			
		

> vegeta and goku are 2 fast 4 the hulk. The hulk couldnt even land a punch on spiderman. And if spidermans punches could subdue the hulk, Goku and Vegetas could hurl him



Since when did Spider-man's punches 'subdue' the Hulk?

Besides, Spider-man could dodge that well because he has precog, and the Hulk still tags him sometimes.


----------



## kapsi (Aug 17, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Two words: Thunder Clap.


Vegeta will shrug it off with a kiai


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 17, 2006)

kapsi said:
			
		

> Vegeta will shrug it off with a kiai



And your proof is?

You have no idea how powerful the Hulk's thunderclaps are. DBZ characters have been knocked back by much weaker attacks.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 17, 2006)

Here, check this out:



This one was nearly as powerful as a nuke.



Knocks Thing and Torch for miles, and shakes the ground for miles.



Louder than a sonic boom.



Like a sonic boom while he was in a weakened state.

While having his strength drained by Xemnu, the Hulk's thunderclap is far more powerful than any hurricane in history. A normal hurricane has way more energy than a nuke.



Defeats powerful enemies.



Knocks back the Grey Hulk (the one that destroyed the planetoid)




More stuff.



Avengers < Thunderclap




Near - hurricane force. A hurricane is way more powerful than the strongest nuke.

And let's not even bring up the Dark Cosmos incident....


----------



## Sasori (Aug 17, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And let's not even bring up the Dark Cosmos incident....



Let's 

I love being educated by u guys xD


----------



## kapsi (Aug 17, 2006)

Wow, hulk can destroy a door and throw a guy some distance away. Frizer kicked away Vegeta's blast which would destroy Namek.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 17, 2006)

kapsi said:
			
		

> Wow, hulk can destroy a door and throw a guy some distance away. Frizer kicked away Vegeta's blast which would destroy Namek.



Please, please don't make me bring up the Dark Cosmos incident....


----------



## Dr.Douchebag (Aug 17, 2006)

Satetsu Kaihou said:
			
		

> Let's
> 
> I love being educated by u guys xD




me too ...... 

btw thats an awesome sig and ava satestu


----------



## humpa (Aug 17, 2006)

No way seriously, no way can vegeta beat Hulk and Juggaurnaut. Thats just crazy.  Hulk is on the level of superman and goku.  Hulk is as invincible as superman and goku and to add juggaurnaut?  Juggaurnaut isnt called the unstoppable juggaurnaut for nothing.  His power is basically allows him to be Unstoppable because he has some invinicible shield around him. Vegeta's basic blasts will do as what cyclop's beams do to juggaurnat and thats tickle him.  Heill have to use most of his energy to at least knock juggaurnaut out for a couple of minutes but then juggaurnaut will get right back up at full strength.  The hulk is like juggaurnaut however much more powerful (He's so strong iron man decided to send him off to another universe)



Vegeta is dead meat.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

_Hulk is as invincible as superman and goku_

Not really. Hulk isn't as invulnerable as either of them. Multiple times, have he been impaled and had been burnt rather badly.

It's really his healing factor that you're talking about.


----------



## Dr.Douchebag (Aug 17, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Hulk is as invincible as superman and goku_
> 
> Not really. Hulk isn't as invulnerable as either of them. Multiple times, have he been impaled and had been burnt rather badly.
> 
> It's really his healing factor that you're talking about.



is war hulk as invincible as superman then?


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 17, 2006)

This crap  is still going on? Fanboys are like a rash that won't go away on this forum. Read the the comics, fanboys and you will ses that Kakarot and Vegete aren't even in Juggernaut and War hulk's league

Height: 7 ft. as green Hulk, 5 ft. 9 in. as Banner, 6 ft. 6 in. as gray Hulk
Weight: 1,040 lbs. as green Hulk, 128 lbs. as Banner, 900 lbs. as gray Hulk
Eyes: Green as green Hulk, Brown as Banner, gray as gray Hulk
Hair: Green as green Hulk, Brown as Banner, black as gray Hulk
Skin: Green as green Hulk, gray as gray Hulk

Strength Level: The Hulk possesses superhuman strength of the Class 100 level, enabling him to lift (press) in excess of 100 tons. The Hulk only attains this strength level when he is enraged. In a totally, calm state his functional strength is significantly less, perhaps in the 70 ton range. In human form Bruce Banner possesses the normal human strength of a man of his age, height, and build who engages in no regular exercise.

Known superhuman powers: The Hulk possesses the capacity for nearly limitless physical strength. The gamma radiation that mutated the Hulk's body fortified his cellular structure and added, from some as yet unknown source, over 800 pounds of bone marrow and tissue to his body.

Previously, this mutation was not a stable one. The Hulk would periodically revert o the human form of Bruce Banner, losing the extra mass and energy to the same as yet unknown source from which he derived it. The process by which Banner transformed into the Hulk had a chemical catalyst, adrenalinc. As in normal humans, Banner's adrenal medulla secrets large amounts of adrenaline in times of fear, range, or stress, which hormonally stimulates the heartbeat rate, raises blood-sugar levels, and inhibits sensations of fatigue. Whereas this secretion simply heightens normal physical abilities in normal human beings, in Banner's case it triggered the complex chemical/ extra-physical process that transformed him into the Hulk. The total transformation took from 25 seconds to as long as 5 minutes, depending on the initial adrenaline surge which is determined by the original, external stimulus. Soon after the transformation, the amount of adrenaline in the Hulk would return to more normal, reduced levels. However, since Dr. Leonard Samson separated the Hulk and Banner into two discrete beings, Banner remains in human form and the Hulk remains in his superhuman mutated one.

In times of stress the Hulk's adrenaline level escalates, causing a corresponding escalation in strength. This is not accompanied by an additional gain in mass, but does appear to promote increased levels of energy efficiency. To date the Hulk has never apparently been provoked into demonstrating a maximum output of strength; hence, its upper limit remains a mystery.

In addition to great strength, the Hulk's body possesses a high degree of resistance to injury, pain, and disease. The Hulk's skin is capable of withstanding great heat without blistering (up to 3,000? Fahrenheit), great cold without freezing (down to -190? F), and great impacts (he can survive direct hits by field artillery cannon shells). It is possible to injure him: he could not, for example, survive a near-hit with a nuclear warhead. The Hulk's highly efficient physiology renders him immune to all terrestrial disease.

The Hulk can use his superhumanly strong leg muscles to leap great distances. The Hulk has been known to cover 3 miles in a single bound.

The Hulk has two powers apparently not related to his physical attributes, he can see astral forms, and he as a seemingly mystical homing ability that enables him to locate the area in New Mexico where he first became the Hulk. The nature of these abilities is not yet known.

Abilities: Dr. Bruce Banner is a genius in nuclear physics. On the other hand, the Hulk has low intelligence, comparable to that of a small child, although he has an undeniable cunning that aids him in battle. When Banner and the Hulk were the same being, and Banner was in the Hulk's form, Banner's consciousness was buried within the Hulk's, and could influence the Hulk's behavior only to a very limited extent.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 17, 2006)

*Double Post*

There. You fanboys don't have to look now


Real Name: Cain Marko
Occupation: professional criminal
Identity: secret
Legal Status: American citizen with no criminal record as yet
Other Aliases: none
Place of Birth: Berkeley, Calif.
Marital Status: single
Known Relatives: Kurt Marko (father, a deceased), Marjorie Marko (mother, deceased), Sharon Xavier (stepmother, deceased), Charles F. Xavier (stepbrother)
Group Affiliation: frequent associate of Black Tom Cassidy
Base of Operations: Mobile
First Appearance: X-Men #12

History: Cain Marko is the son of Dr. Kurt Marko, an atomic researcher. Cain's parents separated and Cain was eventually sent to a boarding school. Kurt Marko's colleague, Dr. Brian Xavier, another atomic researcher, died in an accident, and Kurt Marko eventually married Xavier's widow Sharon for her great wealth. On marrying Sharon, Kurt Marko moved into her large Westchester County mansion, where he lived with her and her young son Charles. Cain, who had become a cruel and spiteful boy, came to live at the mansion as well.

Cain immediately began bullying his new stepbrother Charles. But Cain was often secretly beaten by his abusive father. Charles' vast telepathic powers were beginning to develop, and on one occasion he found himself experiencing the anguished thoughts and emotions of Cain after Cain had been beaten by his father. The inexperienced young Charles could not control or end his contact with Cain's mind at this time. Somehow Cain sensed that Charles was reading his mind and had discovered his secret shame. Cain believed that Charles had invaded his thoughts deliberately, and from then on Cain regarded Charles as his enemy. Cain was abusive to his stepbrother at every opportunity.

Getting into a disagreement with his father over money, Cain accidentally upset some explosive chemicals and caused a fire to engulf his father's home laboratory. Though Kurt Marko managed to rescue both Cain and Charles from the fire, he himself died of smoke inhalation. Sharon Xavier Marko had died sometime before, tormented by the lovelessness of her marriage to Marko. Cain Marko continued to live in the Xavier mansion, growing increasingly resentful of his stepbrother's scholastic and athletic achievements as wall as of his telepathic powers, which Xavier mastered as he grew older.

What happened to Marko after he left home is unclear. However, it is known that he became a mercenary and was eventually imprisoned in a Third World jail when the revolutionary forces he was fighting for were defeated. In the jail he became friends with a fellow mercenary, Black Tom Cassidy, who used his mutant powers to help them escape.

Later, Marko and Xavier found themselves serving together in the same U.S. military unit in Asia. Marko deserted under fire and Xavier went after him to bring him back. Xavier followed Marko into a cave that housed the lost secret temple of Cyttorak, a powerful mystical entity. Marko impulsively grabbed a glowing ruby from the lap of an idol and read the inscription (which mystically appeared to his mind to be in English): "Whosoever touches this gem shall possess the power of the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak. Henceforth, you who read these words shall become forevermore a human juggernaut." As Xavier watched, the gem's mystical power transformed Marko into a larger, superhuman being. Just then enemy high explosive bombardment caused a cave-in, and Marko was buried under several thousand tons of rock. Xavier survived and returned to his unit.

Marko, now the Juggernaut, eventually dug himself free with his newfound power and made his way to America to use his power to kill Xavier. He was defeated by Xavier and his original team of X-Men. Over the years the Juggernaut has clashed with Xavier and both the original and new teams of X-Men repeatedly. He has also formed a successful criminal partnership with his old friend Black Tom Cassidy.

More recently the sentient psionic being known as Onslaught, actually an amalgamation of the psyches of Xavier and Magneto, would-be world conqueror and mutant Master of Magnetism, ripped the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak from Juggernaut's body and imprisoned him within. Inside the jewel, Cain learned he was an avatar for Cyttorak. As such, the otherworldly entity sought to assume control of Juggernaut's form. But Cain, through sheer force of will, destroyed the evil god and returned to Earth, stronger than ever, but unable to fully control his amplified abilities.

Cyttorak was merely one of a pantheon of eight gods, all with earthbound avatars. These Exemplars enlisted the Juggernaut's aid in constructing a machine that would enslave the human race. As the Exemplars tended to in their final preparations, Cain withdrew deep into himself, where he clashed with Cytorrak. Charles entered his stepbrother's mind to aid him in the battle, but the Exemplar known as Bedlam sensed his presence and expelled him. Still, Charles' short stay in Juggernaut's head had helped Cain regain control of his psyche. After defeating Cyttorak, Juggernaut destroyed the Exemplars' God Machine. He then turned his attention to the avatars themselves, defeating each in turn.

Juggernaut again was cast as a hero when the sentient spaceship Prosh escaped the confines of a Celestial prison, returned to Earth and dispatched a group of disparate beings on a journey through time to uncover the keys to preserving human evolution. Besides Cain, Prosh's task force included Phoenix and Iceman, members of the X-Men; and Mystique and Toad, mutant terrorists. Their mission: Save the human race from a threat that might not manifest itself for millions of years. Juggernaut was shown that for all his physical strength, he long has lacked strength of character. Despite all his yearning for power, he has squandered his supernaturally enhanced abilities. When Prosh reassembled the members of his team in the present, they fought and defeated the enigmatic alien entity known as the Stranger, who sought to control the natural evolution of humans and mutants. If not acquiring a newfound respect for life and human dignity, at least Juggernaut gained a better sense of understanding for the mutant plight.

Height: 6 ft. 10 in.
Weight: 900 lbs.
Eyes: Blue
Here: red brown

Strength Level: The Juggernaut possesses Class 100 strength, enabling him to lift (press) over 100 tons. The Juggernaut is said to be unstoppable, and the upper limit to his strength is not known.

Known Superhuman Powers: The Juggernaut possesses untold power, mystical in nature, which enhances his strength to an as yet unknown degree and makes him a seemingly irresistible, unstoppable being. Once he begins to walk in a certain direction, no obstacle or force on Earth has been observed to be able to stop him. Apparently, only he can stop himself. Some obstacles (many tons of rock, for example) or forces (such as plasma-discharge cannons) may slow his pace considerably, but nothing has yet stopped him permanently from advancing.

Besides giving him vast superhuman strength, the mystical energy of Cyttorak gives the Juggernaut an extraordinary degree of resistance to all forms of injury. The Juggernaut can shield himself even further from injury by mentally surrounding himself with a force field. Enveloped by his force field, the Juggernaut has survived the fiery explosion of a truck transporting a huge quantity of oil without any injury whatsoever.
The Juggernaut can survive indefinitely without food, water, or oxygen. He is sustained by his mystical energies alone.

In the past the Juggernaut has temporarily possessed telepathic abilities and certain mystical powers, all of which he has since lost.

Limitations: The Juggernaut does have certain vulnerabilities. He can be affected by mystical forces of sufficient strength. Without his helmet and/or skullcap, both constructed of an unknown mystical metal, he is vulnerable to psionic attacks against his mind. Nimrod, a robot from the future of an alternate Earth, successfully attacked the Juggernaut's mind and nervous system with advanced weaponry producing tight-beam high-frequency sound waves and a synapse dislocate that jammed his neural impulses. However, had the Juggernaut used his force field, perhaps he might have proved invulnerable even to these futuristic weapons.

The Juggernaut once attempted to transform Black Tom Cassidy into a being like himself with the ruby of Cyttorek. The result was that both Marko and Cassidy were Juggernauts, but each had considerably less power than Marko had possessed when he was the sole Juggernaut. (Marko and Cassidy each claimed to have half Marko's previous power, but this is inaccurate, considering that the Juggernaut's previous power level was virtually immeasurable.) Marko finally regained his full power, and hurled the ruby into orbit so that no one else could ever use it.

Paraphernalia: The Juggernaut wears a helmet fashioned from an unknown mystical metal found in the dimension of Cyttorak. Wearing this helmet, the Juggernaut is able to resist all forms of psionic attack on his mind successfully. Recently, the Juggernaut constructed a skullcap from scraps of the metal he used to construct the helmet. He wears the skullcap under, his helmet. Hence, if his helmet is somehow removed in battle, the skullcap will provide him continued protection from psionic attacks on his mind.


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## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 18, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Two words: Thunder Clap.


In one of the movies, Vegeta is able to resist such an attack and actually defend a significant area around himself as well (he was shielding a building with people in it). I'm not sure that counts though, seeing as he hasn't really faced a similar attack in the main storyline.


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## Envy (Aug 18, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> In one of the movies, Vegeta is able to resist such an attack and actually defend a significant area around himself as well (he was shielding a building with people in it). I'm not sure that counts though, seeing as he hasn't really faced a similar attack in the main storyline.




I doubt he could stand up to Hulks, and also, Movies aren't canon


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 18, 2006)

_is war hulk as invincible as superman then?_

I am unsure, since he's equipped with Celestial Tech.


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## Kuya (Aug 19, 2006)

Poll Wise ... looks like Vegeta won.


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## Envy (Aug 19, 2006)

Kuya said:
			
		

> Poll Wise ... looks like Vegeta won.



yes, but then when you realize that 3/4ths of the OB are DBZ fanboys unable to be swayed, it's safe you can add at least half the votes from vegeta to Hulk/juggs.

Edit: Well.. It was stuck at 34/34 And I just voted for juggerhulk.. 35/34 juggerhulk wins. =]


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## Kuya (Aug 19, 2006)

?clair said:
			
		

> yes, but then when you realize that 3/4ths of the OB are DBZ fanboys unable to be swayed, it's safe you can add at least half the votes from vegeta to Hulk/juggs.
> 
> Edit: Well.. It was stuck at 34/34 And I just voted for juggerhulk.. 35/34 juggerhulk wins. =]



what does OB stand for


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## Suzumebachi (Aug 19, 2006)

Kuya said:
			
		

> what does OB stand for




...

Outskirts Battledome.


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## kapsi (Aug 19, 2006)

I guess WH and Juggernaut has more fanboys


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 20, 2006)

kapsi said:
			
		

> I guess WH and Juggernaut has more fanboys



whatever, Vegeta can't win


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## kapsi (Aug 20, 2006)

He blasts them into sun.


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 20, 2006)

kapsi said:
			
		

> He blasts them into sun.



Hate to start this again but, Juggernaut is immortal, invincible and unmovable. 

 The only thing that can affect him is something with powerful mystical powers which Vegeta dosen't have.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 20, 2006)

Juggernaut in the sun wouldn't even have a tan, I believe.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 21, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Hate to start this again but, Juggernaut is immortal, invincible and unmovable.
> 
> * The only thing that can affect him is something with powerful mystical powers which Vegeta dosen't have.*




Or the Hulk


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## escamoh (Aug 21, 2006)

Amazing that this thread 30 pages and 670 posts.


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## kapsi (Aug 21, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Hate to start this again but, Juggernaut is immortal, invincible and unmovable.
> 
> The only thing that can affect him is something with powerful mystical powers which Vegeta dosen't have.


Then he grabs him and throws him in space where he drifts for next 10 billion years. Or lifts the whole chunk on earth he stands on.


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## Aruarian (Aug 21, 2006)

Juggernaut doesn't need matter to walk on, he could just stroll back at leisure time.


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## kapsi (Aug 21, 2006)

O RLY                      .


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## Shodai700 (Aug 21, 2006)

no not really half of these people make up bullshit powers for Juggernuat. If Juggs was immovable how comes Onslaught punched him all the way 2 canada hmm, I dont seee Onslaught with magical powers. Gladiator beat Juggernaut and Collosus has even traded blows with him. Hulk beat Juggernaut and he doesnt have any magical powers. Black Tom Cassidy almost killed the invunerable, immovable ,unstopable Juggernaut. 
N if ur gona post sum bullshit powers like Juggernaut walkin in space, post sum pics


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## Aruarian (Aug 21, 2006)

Wait, are you _really_ comparing ONSLAUGHT to Vegeta?


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## Shodai700 (Aug 21, 2006)

Hell Na im jus sayin Juggernaut is not that immovable and Invunerable as evey1 here is saying


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## Aruarian (Aug 21, 2006)

It depends on which version, though. It's true that he can't be hurt, but he can be stopped with enough force, as War II has proven, amongst others.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 21, 2006)

Onslaught is a reality warper, possibly has more potential power than Cytorrak.


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## Keollyn (Aug 21, 2006)

Been good for some time and I see this topic is STILL going. Not suprising though.


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## Sasori (Aug 21, 2006)

Vegitta vs Vegitta anyone?


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## superbatman86 (Aug 21, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Hate to start this again but, Juggernaut is immortal, invincible and unmovable.
> 
> The only thing that can affect him is something with powerful mystical powers which Vegeta dosen't have.


Unmovable my ass


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## superbatman86 (Aug 21, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Onslaught is a reality warper, possibly has more potential power than Cytorrak.


Not at the time he KO'd juggs he wasn't.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 21, 2006)

He had the potential though. He was still stronger than Vegeta at that point.


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## Havoc (Aug 21, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Unmovable my ass



Juggs is unstoppable not unmovable, that's the Blob.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 21, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He had the potential though. He was still stronger than Vegeta at that point.


Not without Nate Grey and Franklin Richards he doesn't.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 21, 2006)

Havoc said:
			
		

> Juggs is unstoppable not unmovable, that's the Blob.


I know but OTHER posters have been going on and on about him being unmovable.


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## Renegade (Aug 21, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> I know but OTHER posters have been going on and on about him being unmovable.


Really? Didn't The Hulk move him and didn't Onslaught throw him across North America?

Shouldn't that kill the argument right there?


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## Phenomenol (Aug 22, 2006)

Yes it should, but you have so many DBZ haters in this forum it's ridiculous! They will do all they can to bad mouth their powers.

The fight ended long time ago when Vegeta blasted them off the planet.


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 22, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Really? Didn't The Hulk move him and didn't Onslaught throw him across North America?
> 
> Shouldn't that kill the argument right there?



Vegeta's not Hulk or Onslaught


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## superbatman86 (Aug 22, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Really? Didn't The Hulk move him and didn't Onslaught throw him across North America?
> 
> Shouldn't that kill the argument right there?


It should but people are either slow,ignorant,or too stubborn to except the facts.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 22, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Vegeta's not Hulk or Onslaught


What about Collosus or Iceman then.And Iceman did it with not very much water.


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## Phenomenol (Aug 22, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Vegeta's not Hulk or Onslaught



Vegeta does not have to be the Hulk or Onslaught to move Juggs. 

I did not see the planet rock when Onslaught PUNCHED the juggernaut across North America Or the Hulk knocking the damn earth's of it's axis when fighting Juggs..:amazed 

Vegeta can harnish a planet destroying blast with enough power to blow Hulk and Juggs off the planet.


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 22, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> It should but people are either slow,ignorant,or too stubborn to except the facts.



I hope you aren't referring to me, cause I accepted that juggernaut can be moved with enough force. 

I just doubt that Vegeta has enough power to blow Juggernaut clean off the planet. And Juggernaut can't be killed


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## Endless Mike (Aug 22, 2006)

You do realize, of course, that the concussive force of DBZ ki attacks is in no way proportional to their destructive power.


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## Phenomenol (Aug 22, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You do realize, of course, that the concussive force of DBZ ki attacks is in no way proportional to their destructive power.



How do you know? 

Elaborate.


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## Renegade (Aug 22, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Vegeta's not Hulk or Onslaught


Yes, but simply stating he's unmovable is false, whether it is Vegeta who can move him or not. Saying he is unmovable by *Vegeta* would be more fair of a statement.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 22, 2006)

Well for one thing, if they were, Goku's kamehameha in the Saiyan saga would have blasted Vegeta all the way to Venus. Instead it just knocked him a few tens of thousands of feet up into the atmosphere.


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 22, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> I hope you aren't referring to me, cause I accepted that juggernaut can be moved with enough force.
> 
> I just doubt that Vegeta has enough power to blow Juggernaut clean off the planet. And Juggernaut can't be killed






			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> Yes, but simply stating he's unmovable is false, whether it is Vegeta who can move him or not. Saying he is unmovable by *Vegeta* would be more fair of a statement.



I already agreed to that


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## Phenomenol (Aug 22, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Well for one thing, if they were, Goku's kamehameha in the Saiyan saga would have blasted Vegeta all the way to Venus. Instead it just knocked him a few tens of thousands of feet up into the atmosphere.



your nitpicking, Vegeta was resisting a planet destroying blast. So your point is what? So the psychics don't quite work . I didn't see the damn planet get knocked off its axis whenever the Hulk and Juggernaut throw down. I did not see the planet fall apart when Onslaught's punched Juggs across North America and did not even tend up in the atmosphere. There is a reason why comic writers don't have certain things happen BECAUSE THEN EVERYONE WOULD DIE especially Vegeta way out in Venus. It called common sense.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 22, 2006)

Maybe because Onslaught punched him on a ballistic trajectory?

And when I point out the fact that something won't happen because the evidence is against it, you can't just ignore it when you have no evidence for your side.

When, in canon, has anyone or anything ever been blasted into space by a ki blast in DBZ?


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## Phenomenol (Aug 22, 2006)

> Maybe because Onslaught punched him on a ballistic trajectory?



Yeah, the comic clearly states the "Juggernaut flying through the air on a ballistic trajectory." you can leave now. 



> And when I point out the fact that something won't happen because the evidence is against it, you can't just ignore it when you have no evidence for your side.



Go read my last post again. I ignored nothing. 



> When, in canon, has anyone or anything ever been blasted into space by a ki blast in DBZ?



Nobody has been knocked into space that still does not mean they can't do it. Goku has never killed a human does that mean he can't. The fact is Ki blast reach space almost instantly many examples support this.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 22, 2006)

Yet in the only instance when a ki blast was actually used to knock a guy upwards and towards space it didn't knock him anywhere near space.

Also when Gotenks was fighting Buu, Picollo warned him that he might destroy the planet, yet the blasts he was firing were only creating craters on the surface. If they had anywhere near the amount of concussive force to destroy a planet they would have punched down at least to the core.


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## Renegade (Aug 22, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> I already agreed to that


Yeh, but I was arguing the false fact that Juggernaut is unmovable. Your reply saying Vegeta is not Onslaught or The Hulk was irrelevant to my statement.


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## Phenomenol (Aug 22, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Yet in the only instance when a ki blast was actually used to knock a guy upwards and towards space it didn't knock him anywhere near space.
> 
> Also when Gotenks was fighting Buu, Picollo warned him that he might destroy the planet, yet the blasts he was firing were only creating craters on the surface. If they had anywhere near the amount of concussive force to destroy a planet they would have punched down at least to the core.



Veegta was RESISTING the blast! Gotenks was warming up Piccolo warned him before hand when he was shooting ki blasts. 

All you are doing is nitpicking, when Ki blasts have reached space instantly on numerous counts. Kid Buu imploded the earth with a CASUAL ki blast. Juggs will get blown off the planet.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 22, 2006)

Vegeta was taken by surprise and Goku said that he would be trying to escape the beam and get out of its radius, not fight against it. Besides, why couldn't Juggernaut resist the blast? He's much stronger than Vegeta, he just has to turn toward the source of the blast and walk forward. You're just ignoring the fact that ki blasts in DBZ have never once demonstrated enough KI to knock a human - sized object past escape velocity.


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## Phenomenol (Aug 22, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Vegeta was taken by surprise and Goku said that he would be trying to escape the beam and get out of its radius, not fight against it. Besides, why couldn't Juggernaut resist the blast? He's much stronger than Vegeta, he just has to turn toward the source of the blast and walk forward. You're just ignoring the fact that ki blasts in DBZ have never once demonstrated enough KI to knock a human - sized object past escape velocity.



*sigh*

Go read or watch DBZ again. Juggernaut can't resist a planet destroying blast at high speeds, he could not even stop himself from getting punched across north america or pushed by Collosus. So with your logic since Goku never killed a human means that he can't okay now you can leave.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 22, 2006)

First of all, he wasn't pushed back by Colossus, he was hit unprepared and knocked underwater. And a punch delivers all its KE at once, it doesn't rely on a continuous application. We know Juggernaut can't be stopped by something like that if he just walks forward, so why couldn't he?

And you're using a false analogy. We know what it requires to kill a human, and Goku has demonstrated destructive power in excess of that.

However, the KE necessary to knock a human - sized object to escape velocity has never been demonstrated in DBZ.


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## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 22, 2006)

> However, the KE necessary to knock a human - sized object to escape velocity has never been demonstrated in DBZ.


I would have to disagree. Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it's impossible. The energy required to make a planet go critical and explode has been shown on a number of occasions by various villians, all who were eventually surpassed by Goku. Frieze could blow up planets with one attack, and Vegeta surpassed him by a long way.

I think that the amount of energy required to destroy a planet is more than enough to launch even a large heavy object into space. It's all a matter of application. You could argue that Vegeta lacks the ability to focus the energy sufficiently to move Juggernaut off the planet, not that he lacks the energy to do so.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 22, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> I would have to disagree. Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it's impossible.



I never said it was impossible, merely that there was no evidence. It's not impossible that Juggernaut and Warhulk both have Anti - Vegeta Vision, too.




> The energy required to make a planet go critical and explode has been shown on a number of occasions by various villians, all who were eventually surpassed by Goku. Frieze could blow up planets with one attack, and Vegeta surpassed him by a long way.



What's your point, considering I'm talking about KE and not destructive ability?



> I think that the amount of energy required to destroy a planet is more than enough to launch even a large heavy object into space. It's all a matter of application. You could argue that Vegeta lacks the ability to focus the energy sufficiently to move Juggernaut off the planet, not that he lacks the energy to do so.



Think of it like this: A nuclear warhead can destroy a city, and it definitely has enough power to blast a truck far away, but if you just pick one up and throw it at the truck, it will be lucky to budge it at all.

Different types of energy and the application thereof are what's important.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 22, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Yeh, but I was arguing the false fact that Juggernaut is unmovable. Your reply saying Vegeta is not Onslaught or The Hulk was irrelevant to my statement.



What i was trying to say was you can't really compare Vegeta to Onslaught or Hulk.

 Their powers are different, their fighting styles are different. 

Phenomenol needs to understand that


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## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 22, 2006)

> What's your point, considering I'm talking about KE and not destructive ability?





> Think of it like this: A nuclear warhead can destroy a city, and it definitely has enough power to blast a truck far away, but if you just pick one up and throw it at the truck, it will be lucky to budge it at all.
> 
> Different types of energy and the application thereof are what's important.


I feel like we're saying the same thing here. Infact the last thing you said was almost exactly the same as mine. Ki in DBZ has been shown to be incredibly versatile. It can convert into light (almost beam attacks), heat (the hyperbolic time chamber), and even kinetic energy, as in many cases, fighters are pushed backwards after receiving ki attacks or just being near a strong fighter when they powerup. So, Ki definitely has a kinetic component, but like I said, and which you then repeated, it just depends on Vegeta and whether or not he can maximise the kinetic component. 

In fact, I just remembered that if you take a look at Piccolo vs 17, you'll see them both use a purely kinetic ki attack (they each only use it once though).


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 22, 2006)

Yet the KE demonstrated in DBZ has never been anywhere near even kiloton level.


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## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 22, 2006)

> Yet the KE demonstrated in DBZ has never been anywhere near even kiloton level.


Well for one, that's hard to gauge in fight like ssj3 Goku vs Kid Buu. The kinetic energy in a punch may be at kiloton levels, but because of who is actually punching who, you wouldn't really know. Both Buu and Goku were able to take insanely powerful punches.

When it comes to Ki blasts, the aim wasn't really to push the opponent around, but rather to disintergrate them. Thus, the other energy components were likely far more powerful than the kinetic part.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 22, 2006)

Which is what I've been saying all along. There's no evidence that DBZ ki blasts can generate KE enough to accelerate a large object to escape velocity.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 22, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Which is what I've been saying all along. There's no evidence that DBZ ki blasts can generate KE enough to accelerate a large object to escape velocity.



Like ole Juggy


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 22, 2006)

> Which is what I've been saying all along. There's no evidence that DBZ ki blasts can generate KE enough to accelerate a large object to escape velocity.


I've mentioned that the Ki blast has a kinetic component. I've also mentioned to you a case where two fighters used a purely kinetic attack. In DBZ, the strength of the ki blast is related to how powerful the fighter is, or how much ki they have to put into the attack.

So, If Frieza has sufficient Ki to dstroy the planet, we can assume that Vegeta at the end of DBZ posseses much more, because he had far surpassed Frieza. Therefore, he has the Ki for the attack.

If we have two cases where a fighter is able to produce a purely kinetic Ki attack, then we can assume that those attacks are also related to the strength of the Ki. Seeing as the fighters who performed the techniques were Piccolo and 17 (who Vegeta also surpassed by a long way) we could assume that he is capable of a far stronger form of the same attack.

For the sake of a scenario, if Vegeta attacks Juggernaut, he would most likely cause Juggernaut to begin some sort of charge (albeit slow) in Vegeta's direction. Using his superior speed, Vegeta could get in behind Juggernaut before he has a chance to stop. Applying the attack to an already moving Juggernaut in the same direction that he is travelling, would cause him to pick up speed rather quickly with comparitively less energy. Applied at the right angle and sufficiently quickly, Vegeta could force Juggernaut off the planet. Juggernaut's infinte momentum works against him.

Mind you, I think this would be a pretty stupid way to win seeing as Juggernaut can supposedly survive in a vacuum, but whatever. I'm merely out to show that it is conceivable that , Vegeta might have the ability to push Juggernaut off a planet.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 22, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> I've mentioned that the Ki blast has a kinetic component. I've also mentioned to you a case where two fighters used a purely kinetic attack. In DBZ, the strength of the ki blast is related to how powerful the fighter is, or how much ki they have to put into the attack.
> 
> So, If Frieza has sufficient Ki to dstroy the planet, we can assume that Vegeta at the end of DBZ posseses much more, because he had far surpassed Frieza. Therefore, he has the Ki for the attack.
> 
> ...




That might work


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 22, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> I've mentioned that the Ki blast has a kinetic component. I've also mentioned to you a case where two fighters used a purely kinetic attack. In DBZ, the strength of the ki blast is related to how powerful the fighter is, or how much ki they have to put into the attack.
> 
> So, If Frieza has sufficient Ki to dstroy the planet, we can assume that Vegeta at the end of DBZ posseses much more, because he had far surpassed Frieza. Therefore, he has the Ki for the attack.
> 
> ...



Your flaw lies in the assumption that because ki can be used for different purposes, that means all the energy of a planet - destroying blast can be focused into just one of those purposes. However, there is absolutely no evidence of this. The only applications of ki ever seen in DBZ that require planetbusting energy, or anywhere near that, are the planetbusting blasts themselves. The 'pure kinetic' attacks used by Picollo and 17 were in no way sufficient to propel someone like Juggernaut to escape velocity, or even to propel a small rock to escape velocity. You just assume that this ability can be increased up to the strongest level of any ki - based ability ever seen, but there is no evidence for this.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 22, 2006)

Shodai700 said:
			
		

> This theory is very good. This proves Vegeta is stronger.......hahahaha. By the way FUCK MINAMI RYUSUKE



Link removed


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Aug 22, 2006)

Exactly how does it prove Vegeta is stronger?


----------



## Shodai700 (Aug 22, 2006)

^^ that was funny. It proves Vegeta is stronger because he is the Prince of Saiyans and is smart. Juggernaut is dumb and fat, and Hulk got beat up by wolverine


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Aug 23, 2006)

It just means you don't have the guns to beat the opponent face-up.

Also, Juggs isn't fat and this is War Hulk we're talking about here, not regular Hulk who tends to job a lot. War Hulk was created to beat beings that'd make Vegeta shit himself.


----------



## Shodai700 (Aug 23, 2006)

Tell me what Villians made vegeta shit him self. If Collosus can trade blows with Juggs and War Hulk can lose 2 Galctus Vegeta is the best and will win. It is inevitable


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 23, 2006)

Shodai700 said:
			
		

> Tell me what Villians made vegeta shit him self. If Collosus can trade blows with Juggs and War Hulk can lose 2 Galctus Vegeta is the best and will win. It is inevitable



Link removed


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 23, 2006)

Right, because Vegeta > Galactus


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 23, 2006)

Shodai700 said:
			
		

> ^^ that was funny. It proves Vegeta is stronger because he is the Prince of Saiyans and is smart. Juggernaut is dumb and fat, and Hulk got beat up by wolverine



Drop the dupe accounts Phenomenol 

I like you the way you were...


----------



## Shodai700 (Aug 23, 2006)

Vegeta is Stronger than Galactus. Vegeta in the marvel univese wud b a god


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 23, 2006)

Shodai700 said:
			
		

> Vegeta is Stronger than Galactus. Vegeta in the marvel univese wud b a god



Proof besides fanboy bullshit?

Didn't think so. Some god. Saiyans get pwnd by heart disease and their wives.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 23, 2006)

Shodai700 said:
			
		

> Vegeta is Stronger than Galactus. Vegeta in the marvel univese wud b a god



Link removed


----------



## Shodai700 (Aug 23, 2006)

Well Galctus once caught a cosmic flu in Marvel Knight #32


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 23, 2006)

Shodai700 Is a SuperTroll. 
You know what they say, feed a fever, starve a Troll


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 23, 2006)

Shodai700 said:
			
		

> hahah u r very so funny rild. Three cheers for rild the castle jester



You're still posting....


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 23, 2006)

You were saying?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 23, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> itv news


Sorry for the spam, but you really need to stop over using these so much. You're gonna kill it.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 23, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Sorry for the spam, but you really need to stop over using these so much. You're gonna kill it.



You're right. I'll stop using it


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Aug 23, 2006)

Vegeta, IMO.


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Aug 23, 2006)

What lovely insight...


----------



## Dr.Douchebag (Aug 23, 2006)

Shodai700 said:
			
		

> Vegeta is Stronger than Galactus. Vegeta in the marvel univese wud b a god



  ..............


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 23, 2006)

Shodai700 said:
			
		

> Vegeta is Stronger than Galactus. Vegeta in the marvel univese wud b a god


 You win the award for the stupidest thing said in a this thread.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 24, 2006)

Shodai700 said:
			
		

> Vegeta is Stronger than Galactus. Vegeta in the marvel univese wud b a god



Jeez. I thought us posters were smarter than this. . .


----------



## Renegade (Aug 25, 2006)

Just a random gif I recently found...



And nobody use it for your sig or avy, or else DM will kill you me. :sweat


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 25, 2006)

Yeah that picture and that fight is pretty common throughout Dragonball. That is how fast their Ki usually moves, that is why Juggs is blown off the planet.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 25, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Just a random gif I recently found...
> 
> 
> 
> And nobody use it for your sig or avy, or else DM will kill you me. :sweat


As far as I recall, that was never in the anime.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 25, 2006)

Sigh I am talking about the situation of how both characters are fighting and how the Ki blasts easily hits the moon.

They have been fighting like that in Dragonball, that is what I mean.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 25, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> As far as I recall, that was never in the anime.


Then maybe you should recall farther...


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Sigh I am talking about the situation of how both characters are fighting and how the Ki blasts easily hits the moon.
> 
> They have been fighting like that in Dragonball, that is what I mean.


Got any other proof?

And that scene was in one of the Budokai games, I think.


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 25, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Got any other proof?
> 
> And that scene was in one of the Budokai games, I think.



*Sigh*

You were the kid who watched Dragonball with his eyes closed, the proof is in the anime go watch any battles, Cell Vs. Goku, Vegeta vs. Cell, etc...

Dragonball fights at Superspeeds like that on a daily basis! Hell Ki blasts reached the moon and space easily that fast by characters. Come on man...


----------



## Shiron (Aug 25, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Then maybe you should recall farther...


 Nope, it was from one of the games; that never happened in the anime. Tell me what episode it was from then, if you disagree.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> *Sigh*
> 
> You were the kid who watched Dragonball with his eyes closed, the proof is in the anime go watch any battles, Cell Vs. Goku, Vegeta vs. Cell, etc...
> 
> Dragonball fights at Superspeeds like that on a daily basis! Hell Ki blasts reached the moon and space easily that fast by characters. Come on man...


Oh wait, you were the one that argued the DBZ _anime_ was a higher canon than the manga, right?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 25, 2006)

Well it doesn't matter anyway because this thread is regarding *any* Vegeta. Whether it be anime, manga, or budokai.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 25, 2006)

But that .gif was Goku, not Vegeta.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 25, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> But that .gif was Goku, not Vegeta.


It was to show what Z fighters are capable of.


----------



## earthshine (Aug 25, 2006)

juggerhulk


vegeta can bow up the whole planet, and you know what? only he would die.



yes, vegeta is godly, but his power is not the kind that can beat juggerhulk, it is too straightforward. for gods sake, hulk can hold open black holes with his bare hands.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 25, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> It was to show what Z fighters are capable of.


Ur, no. It showed what SSJ3 Goku and Buu in the special video were capable of, it shows nothing of Vegeta. Get me a vid of Vegeta doing that, then we'll talk.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 25, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Ur, no. It showed what SSJ3 Goku and Buu in the special video were capable of, it shows nothing of Vegeta. Get me a vid of Vegeta doing that, then we'll talk.


if Goku did that at SSJ3, Vegeta could easily do that at SSJ4.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 25, 2006)

Even though SSJ4's showings were less impressive than SSJ3's showings?

You really have nothing to back it up with.


----------



## Shiron (Aug 25, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> if Goku did that at SSJ3, Vegeta could easily do that at SSJ4.


First, tell me what game that was from. Then prove that SSJ4 was an option in it. Otherwise, you're just mixing versions.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 25, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Even though SSJ4's showings were less impressive than SSJ3's showings?
> 
> You really have nothing to back it up with.


So now you're saying SSJ4 is weaker than SSJ3?

Ok... so according to you, since SSJ3 is stronger than SSJ4, they were just being completely stupid and went SSJ4 even though SSJ3 was better...

The higher the number, the stronger the level, man. Come on.



			
				Shiron said:
			
		

> First, tell me what game that was from. Then prove that SSJ4 was an option in it. Otherwise, you're just mixing versions.


Since all version are usable, mixing is allowed.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Aug 25, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> The higher the number, the stronger the level, man.



As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong, I never watched GT), it's a question of quantifying it.

Of course SSJ4 should be better/stronger/faster/etc than SSJ3.  But how much better?  As it's been explained to me, the only feats we really saw from a SSJ4 character were inferior to those done at the SSJ3 level, so we have nothing to measure by.

Real-world example:  A tricked out sports car is faster than the tricycle I owned when I was 3.  But then, so's your average mounatin bike.

As far as the fight goes, it seems a moot issue anyway, if we're going by a "ring out" standard, normal Vegeta or maybe SSJ Vegeta could probably knock him off the planet eventually.  If we're going to-the-death, DBZ just isn't capable of it.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 25, 2006)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong, I never watched GT), it's a question of quantifying it.
> 
> Of course SSJ4 should be better/stronger/faster/etc than SSJ3.  But how much better?  As it's been explained to me, the only feats we really saw from a SSJ4 character were inferior to those done at the SSJ3 level, so we have nothing to measure by.


How about defeating a villian that level SSJ3 could not? That's a feat right there.



			
				EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> Real-world example:  A tricked out sports car is faster than the tricycle I owned when I was 3.  But then, so's your average mounatin bike.


Ok, and if goku at SSJ3 could destroy that moon so easily like he did, of course SSJ4 Vegeta is able to also. SSJ4 Vegeta representing the mountain bike, SSJ3 Goku representing the tricycle .


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 25, 2006)

_for gods sake, hulk can hold open black holes with his bare hands._

This I missed. When did that happen?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 25, 2006)

earthshine said:
			
		

> For gods sake, hulk can hold open black holes with his bare hands.


If that is, in fact, true, I will concede in regards as to who wins.


----------



## SoulTaker (Aug 25, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> If that is, in fact, true, I will concede in regards as to who wins.



Destroying the astroid twice the size of earth and picking up the 150 billion ton mountain was not enough?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 25, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:
			
		

> Destroying the astroid twice the size of earth and picking up the 150 billion ton mountain was not enough?


Destroying an asteroid twice the size of earth (which I blieve Vegeta could do easily) and picking up a 150 billion tonne mountain comes aboslutely nowhere close to holding open a black hole...


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 25, 2006)

_Destroying an asteroid twice the size of earth (which I blieve Vegeta could do easily)_

A ki blast, yes. With sheer strength though?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 25, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Destroying an asteroid twice the size of earth (which I blieve Vegeta could do easily)_
> 
> A ki blast, yes. With sheer strength though?


Does it matter? What the Hulk can do with his strength, Vegeta can do with his ki. 

Unless that black hole shit is true.


----------



## Slips (Aug 25, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _for gods sake, hulk can hold open black holes with his bare hands._
> 
> This I missed. When did that happen?




Cant find a direct source for that but having a quick 5 min search on google. Its doing the rounds on a few forums so there could be some truth in it


----------



## Shiron (Aug 25, 2006)

The Smog said:
			
		

> Cant find a direct source for that but having a quick 5 min search on google. Its doing the rounds on a few forums so there could be some truth in it


 Just because it's on a few forums in no way makes it true, nor does it really give it any validity.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 25, 2006)

Shiron said:
			
		

> Just because it's on a few forums in no way makes it true, nor does it really give it any validity.


He said there *could* be some truth to it...


----------



## Phenomenol (Aug 25, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> Oh wait, you were the one that argued the DBZ _anime_ was a higher canon than the manga, right?



No, I said the Manga and Anime are BOTH CANON and Toriyama was involved in both. 

whoever made this thread should have known that Vegeta's only hope of winning is too blow Juggs off the planet. The win is only decided by a ringout.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 25, 2006)

_No, I said the Manga and Anime are BOTH CANON and Toriyama was involved in both. _

However, the manga is the higher canon than the anime.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> No, I said the Manga and Anime are BOTH CANON and Toriyama was involved in both.
> 
> whoever made this thread should have known that Vegeta's only hope of winning is too blow Juggs off the planet. The win is only decided by a ringout.



You are still on that? You don't give up, do you?


----------



## Shodai700 (Aug 25, 2006)

Phenomenal is ryt Akira Toroyima made them both and Vegeta can beat the Hulk by blowing up the planet, Hulk cant breath in space but Vegata can. HAHAHAHa


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 25, 2006)

Shodai700 said:
			
		

> Phenomenal is ryt Akira Toroyima made them both and Vegeta can beat the Hulk by blowing up the planet, Hulk cant breath in space but Vegata can. HAHAHAHa



Now you are a official joke


----------



## Shodai700 (Aug 25, 2006)

I am *an* official joke. How is it i am 1


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 25, 2006)

_Phenomenal is ryt Akira Toroyima made them both and Vegeta can beat the Hulk by blowing up the planet, Hulk cant breath in space but Vegata can. HAHAHAHa

I am an official joke. How is it i am 1_

The fact you're saying that Vegeta can breathe in space.

If you're referring to the part where Nappa and Vegeta stopped over by a planet, and Vegeta destroyed the planet with his fingers, that was filler -- non-canon.

Although Hulk shouldn't be able to breathe in space -- Professor Hulk needed a breathing apparatus when in space -- Hulk was shown in space without one in New Avengers Illuminati.


----------



## Shodai700 (Aug 25, 2006)

but in Dragonball #203 Vegeta states that Saiyans can train themselves 2 breath in space


----------



## Shiron (Aug 25, 2006)

Shodai700 said:
			
		

> but in Dragonball #203 Vegeta states that Saiyans can train themselves 2 breath in space


 Scan, please? And even if that is the case, that doesn't prove that Vegeta himself can breath in space. He might have done the required training in order to be able to or he might not have; it's inconclusive evidence.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 25, 2006)

Well, you're the first one here to bring that up. A scan or confirmation from other posters here would help.


----------



## Shiron (Aug 25, 2006)

Sorry, I missed this from earlier:


			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> Since all version are usable, mixing is allowed.


 No, since that's creating a non-existant version of Vegeta.


----------



## Shodai700 (Aug 25, 2006)

I cannot scan it on my computer but i will serch on tha internet 4 it


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 25, 2006)

The breathing in space thing seems to be a mix up or something. Here's a quote from 



> 17. Saiyans can't breath in space, or is that what they want you to think?
> 
> We learn that Saiyans cannot breath in space when Frieza is about to blow up Namek, but in the Garlic Junior Saga, Vegeta is training in space jumping from meteor to meteor... and also when Goku takes boss monster carrot to the moon. And, in the Bardock Special, Bardock seems to be doing fine when he confronts Freeza in space. (Submitted by Dclbone1 of dbzshock.net)


----------



## Shiron (Aug 25, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> The breathing in space thing seems to be a mix up or something. Here's a quote from


Yup:
1. Garlic Jr. arc was filler.
2. The Monster Carrot thing was just comedic and wasn't ment to be taken seriously.
3. Bardock Special is mostly non-canon.


----------



## Shodai700 (Aug 25, 2006)

yeh but Akira Toroyima liked Bardock so much he decided 2 make it canon and made him appera in his manga


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 25, 2006)

When Vegeta went super saiyan for the first time, wasn't he on an asteroid?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 25, 2006)

Wasn't the Bardock character incorporated only, in a simple image flashback?


----------



## Shodai700 (Aug 25, 2006)

yes he was


----------



## Shiron (Aug 25, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> When Vegeta went super saiyan for the first time, wasn't he on an asteroid?


 That was in the Garlic Jr. arc, which was filler.

@CBG: Yes, that is correct.


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 26, 2006)

Shiron said:
			
		

> That was in the Garlic Jr. arc, which was filler.


The what is the canon version of how he went Super Saiyan?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> The what is the canon version of how he went Super Saiyan?



He just showed up and went super sayian and everyone was like ''wtf supr sayun??/"


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Shiron said:
			
		

> Sorry, I missed this from earlier:
> No, since that's creating a non-existant version of Vegeta.


Ok, fine, mixing isn't allowed;



			
				Shiron said:
			
		

> First, tell me what game that was from. Then prove that SSJ4 was an option in it. Otherwise, you're just mixing versions.


It was from budokai 2, and SJJ4 is an option.

There, no mixing.


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzu said:
			
		

> He just showed up and went super sayian and everyone was like ''wtf supr sayun??/"


I can't tell if you are being foolish or sarcastic. Was it never explained in the manga how Vegeta reached SSJ level?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> He just showed up and went super sayian and everyone was like ''wtf supr sayun??/"


He achieved it through his anger and frustration of being behind Goku at the time.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> He achieved it through his anger and frustration of being behind Goku at the time.



Really? Because the way I said it is the way I remember it.

During the androids saga, he shows up to fight the androids and its like,

Vegeta: lol gues wut
Everyone: wut??
Vegeta: Super Saiyan!!!

I'm pretty sure thats how it went down. Maybe he just trained alot and got there. Thats how everyone else got above Super Saiyan.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Really? Because the way I said it is the way I remember it.
> 
> During the androids saga, he shows up to fight the androids and its like,
> 
> ...


... And then he explained after how he reached it... Which is how I just stated:



			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> through his anger and frustration of being behind Goku at the time.


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 26, 2006)

renegade said:
			
		

> through his anger and frustration of being behind Goku at the time.


Does the manga contradict how it happened in the anime though, because in the anime, it happens when he is in an asteroid belt trying to protect his ship.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> Does the manga contradict how it happened in the anime though, because in the anime, it happens when he is in an asteroid belt trying to protect his ship.



That was filler, so yeah.


----------



## not TekJounin (Aug 26, 2006)

Shiron said:
			
		

> Yup:
> 
> 3. Bardock Special is mostly non-canon.



I wonder who Goku's dad is then, since it wasn't stated in the manga. 

Bardock special is definitely canon, and was approved by Toriyama.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 26, 2006)

Bardock was mentioned in the manga because Toriyama liked the character. That doesn't mean every part of the special is canon.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> Does the manga contradict how it happened in the anime though, because in the anime, it happens when he is in an asteroid belt trying to protect his ship.


In the anime he achieved it on earth while he was training, didn't he?


----------



## Alucard45Maximum (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Weird. All I remember is him becoming super saiyan during the android saga, and then he explains how it happened, with a flashback of him just training on earth and getting really mad because he could't catch up to Goku. And then eventually going super saiyan by harnessing all his anger.



yea when he was explaining it, it was on an astroid field that he did the "training" Remember that the whole training session took 3 years so anytime, Vegeta could of gone up there and train there. Though I think that more of a plot device since it been stated that Saiyans can't breath in Space.

on to the battle, I don't think Vegeta CAN win here. Even (for some miracle reason) if he did defeat the Hulk somehow, how you expect him to MOVE the juggernaut?!?! It's nearly impossible to move him(let alone send him in space). He'll just keep on moving and coming at Vegeta. Vegeta only way of avoiding Juggy is to be in the air, since Juggy(i don't think he can) can't fly.

Again, Vegeta has Hulk as a problem who can leap high in the air(though not fly).


----------



## jplaya2023 (Sep 9, 2006)

Just found this thread.

2 bad for hulk and juggy they face king vegeta.

Disadvantages for hulk and juggy

1. Neither can fly
2. Neither can see or match vegeta's speed (he fights at FTL)
3. They wont be able to counter and ki attacks
4. They're to slow to lay a finger on vegeta


1. Vegeta kills hulk with a kienzen disk which slices through anything and blows up the hulks 2 pieces of body on the ground.

2. Vegeta kills juggs by getting his helmet and using big band attack to annihilate juggernaut into oblivion


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 9, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> Just found this thread.
> 
> 2 bad for hulk and juggy they face king vegeta.
> 
> ...



Bad Necromancer!!


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 9, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> Just found this thread.
> 
> 2 bad for hulk and juggy they face king vegeta.



No, King Vegeta is even weaker than Vegeta. He would lose worse.



> Disadvantages for hulk and juggy
> 
> 1. Neither can fly



True, but Juggernaut can walk on air and vacuum.



> 2. Neither can see or match vegeta's speed (he fights at FTL


)

False, no one in DBZ is above or near lightspeed except for IT.



> 3. They wont be able to counter and ki attacks



Unsupported claim.



> 4. They're to slow to lay a finger on vegeta



Thunderclap.



> 1. Vegeta kills hulk with a kienzen disk which slices through anything and blows up the hulks 2 pieces of body on the ground.



Won't work, normal Hulk would regenerate, and War Hulk (who has Celestial Armor and is chanelling power from multiple galaxies) wouldn't even be scratched.



> 2. Vegeta kills juggs by getting his helmet and using big band attack to annihilate juggernaut into oblivion.



His helmet only protects him from psychic attacks. He's still invulnerable without it. Cytorrak >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything in DBZ. Every ki blast ever seen in all of the DBU combined wouldn't even scratch him.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Sep 9, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> No, King Vegeta is even weaker than Vegeta. He would lose worse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I disagree with your entire post. 

We been over the FTL thing they fight it AT stated it himself, you and others couldnt find the magazine using google so u rendered it useless. Not my problem

Unless hulk or juggy can counter a ki blast with a ki blast the claim is supported they cant do anything like that and unless they can move fast enough to dodge it (which they cant) they will take the blast and be fried.

Vegeta with a PL of 18,000 had the power to destroy the planet and hulk and juggy arent more durable than a planet.

Thunderclap wont work while vegeta is 5,000 in the air burying them with ki blast and kienzen's

Since when does the hulk regenerate?? His bio states he can heal but not regenerate. If his head is cut of he  isnt growing another head, so he dead.

I seen juggernaut get beat down by the hulk with or without the helmet, so him being invulnerable is plot hole as evidenced by hulk murdering juggy. 

Vegeta would have similiar success with his ki. And if vegeta wanted to fight them 2 on 1 with just brawling he'll just go USSJ2(The form future trunks used against cell) and beat them to death


----------



## jplaya2023 (Sep 9, 2006)

I still dont see how anyone who isnt bias doesnt see how vegeta wins this match easily.

Rememeber vegeta's taken worse beatings from chars like fat buu that would own hulk and juggernaut in an instant and vegeta still lives. 

Realistically hulk and juggy wouldnt be able to catch or damage vegeta unless vegeta lets them grab them but he'll blow them away with his ki.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 9, 2006)

did you bother to read the feats of Hulk and Juggarnaut listed in this thread?


----------



## jplaya2023 (Sep 9, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> did you bother to read the feats of Hulk and Juggarnaut listed in this thread?




What does that have to do with the fact they wont be able to see, hear or counter vegeta's attacks

take off the fanboy goggles and throw on these fiya shades


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 9, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> I disagree with your entire post.



Good for you. 



> We been over the FTL thing they fight it AT stated it himself, you and others couldnt find the magazine using google so u rendered it useless. Not my problem



No, it is your problem, because unless you can prove that the interview is real, you've got nothing, especially when all evidence says it's not.



> Unless hulk or juggy can counter a ki blast with a ki blast the claim is supported they cant do anything like that and unless they can move fast enough to dodge it (which they cant) they will take the blast and be fried.



They'll just punch it away, or get hit and be unhurt. They've taken much worse, and Juggernaut can't even be hurt by anyone less powerful than Cytorrak.



> Vegeta with a PL of 18,000 had the power to destroy the planet and hulk and juggy arent more durable than a planet.



Um, yes they are. Hulk forced his way right through Vector's TK attack, which left him astounded, for good reason. To quote Vector "I have whipped away worlds!". Keep in mind that was base Hulk, this is War Hulk, who is ridiculously more powerful.

Juggernaut survived an attack from Eternity, and is said to be able to survive the end of the universe.



> Thunderclap wont work while vegeta is 5,000 in the air burying them with ki blast and kienzen's



Which will do nothing, even their weakest thunderclaps are as powerful as hurricanes, and DBZ characters have been hurt or stunned by much weaker shockwaves.



> Since when does the hulk regenerate?? His bio states he can heal but not regenerate. If his head is cut of he  isnt growing another head, so he dead


.

Wow, you're ignorant.

Hulk has some of the best regeneration from all earth - based Marvel characters. In one story a future version of Hulk regenerated from nothing.



> I seen juggernaut get beat down by the hulk with or without the helmet, so him being invulnerable is plot hole as evidenced by hulk murdering juggy.



The only time Hulk actually defeated him and forced him back was as War Hulk, which is the version we are using here, who is powered by Celestial technology.



> Vegeta would have similiar success with his ki. And if vegeta wanted to fight them 2 on 1 with just brawling he'll just go USSJ2(The form future trunks used against cell) and beat them to death



Except the physical strength of DBZ characters is far too weak to even affect them. No DBZ character has ever demonstrated physical strength anywhere near Juggernaut of the Hulk, the greatest physical feats they have are knocking people hundreds of feet away and through small mountains, while Hulk has smashed planetoids and ripped apart huge islands. Juggernaut has been punched halfway across the planet by Onslaught and survived, that's way greater than the physical force generated by any DBZ character.


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 9, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> What does that have to do with the fact they wont be able to see, hear or counter vegeta's attacks
> 
> take off the fanboy goggles and throw on these fiya shades



Why don't you look in a mirror? The hypocrisy here is sickening.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 9, 2006)

> What does that have to do with the fact they wont be able to see, hear or counter vegeta's attacks
> 
> take off the fanboy goggles and throw on these fiya shades


please tell me you're joking.

i'm so close to putting you on ignore right now, you've done nothing but post the most retarded shit I've seen in a while.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Sep 9, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> please tell me you're joking.
> 
> i'm so close to putting you on ignore right now, you've done nothing but post the most retarded shit I've seen in a while.




do tell how does hulk or juggernaut counter a big bang attack exactly?

Endless mike i have no energy to read that post so i'll do it sometime tommorrow.


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 9, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> do tell how does hulk or juggernaut counter a big bang attack exactly?



Punch or thunderclap it away, or just take it and be unharmed.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Sep 9, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Punch or thunderclap it away, or just take it and be unharmed.



yeah they're going to punch something they cant see or fathom

or better yet a thunderclap LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

take it unharmed LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

im out


----------



## escamoh (Sep 9, 2006)

gtfo and please never come back.


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 9, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> yeah they're going to punch something they cant see or fathom
> 
> or better yet a thunderclap LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> 
> ...



Because a DBZ ki blast >>>>>>>>>> the Dark Cosmos universe - destroying attack.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Sep 9, 2006)

esca3 said:
			
		

> gtfo and please never come back.




same goes to you. You actin aggy ass hell. You on your period or something?


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 9, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> same goes to you. You actin aggy ass hell. You on your period or something?



He's just bullshit intolerant.


----------



## escamoh (Sep 9, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> same goes to you. You actin aggy ass hell. You on your period or something?


what Mike said lol


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Sep 9, 2006)

Stupid ass pushing my new thread to the bottom with all this necromancy


----------



## jplaya2023 (Sep 9, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He's just bullshit intolerant.




So am i, so both of you guys should put me in ignore and stop trying to argue with me whenever i make a post. if u got so much against me leave me alone and dont quote me.


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 9, 2006)

Sorry, but I find myself morally obligated to shoot down crap like the kind you spout all the time.


----------



## Renegade (Sep 9, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> So am i, so both of you guys should put me in ignore and stop trying to argue with me whenever i make a post.


Someone doesn't know what a debate is...


----------



## Kuya (Sep 9, 2006)

yay my thread's back. but wait nobody's talking about the fight haha.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Sep 9, 2006)

This thread is back? By the usual poster.

Seriously, this is ridiculous. . .


----------



## jplaya2023 (Sep 9, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Someone doesn't know what a debate is...




there is a diferent between a debate and flaming, and these guys are the jonny storm of flaming.

Example

Jplaya posted a comment about kiba beating luffy 30 seconds later 5 guys jump me on the post, and someone makes a thread about luffy and kiba just to flame me


----------



## Slips (Sep 9, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> there is a diferent between a debate and flaming, and these guys are the jonny storm of flaming.
> 
> Example
> 
> Jplaya posted a comment about kiba beating luffy 30 seconds later 5 guys jump me on the post, and someone makes a thread about luffy and kiba just to flame me




Add this to your collection 

*Your a waste of forum space STFU*


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Sep 9, 2006)

Your arguement may not be credible because of 

A) Your presentation of your arguement may not be clear.
B) The facts that you use are incorrect.
C) Your application may be impractical
D) Interpretation may be incorrect.
E) Opinion does not equal fact.
F) Lack of depth.

In addition, coming in here and saying that you're a respected poster in terms of anime, manga, and comic knowledge doesn't aid to your credibility.

Since you're debut in these forums, I had to correct you in a whole slew of things regarding comic knowledge.


----------



## Renegade (Sep 9, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> there is a diferent between a debate and flaming, and these guys are the jonny storm of flaming.
> 
> Example
> 
> Jplaya posted a comment about kiba beating luffy 30 seconds later 5 guys jump me on the post, and someone makes a thread about luffy and kiba just to flame me


Nobody was flaming you in this thread. If anything, *you're* the one who was flaming, calling people fanboys. All anyone else did was counter your arguments, and since there was a large amount of people disagreeing with you, you seemed to get offended, and took it as flame.


----------



## The Sentry (Apr 17, 2007)

Vegeta will win


----------



## Havoc (Apr 17, 2007)

Why did you bump this with a wrong assumption?


----------



## Thanatos (Apr 17, 2007)

Because he's exceptionally annoying.


----------



## Havoc (Apr 17, 2007)

I should murder him.


----------



## Thanatos (Apr 17, 2007)

Don't let me stop you.


----------



## The Sentry (Apr 17, 2007)

im sorry i only wanted 2 revive the thread


----------



## Adjective-Noun (Apr 17, 2007)

Vegeta wins because he's so much cooler and, as you know, there is a direct correlation between how cool you are and your ability to kick ass.


----------



## omgbbq (Apr 17, 2007)

vegeta > hulk + jugg


----------



## Vynjira (Apr 18, 2007)

omgbbq said:


> vegeta > hulk + jugg


Ok, but now you gotta say in what ways and how those ways would actually make him win. For example, Juggernaut can't be hurt and can't be exhausted and is virtually immortal. Vegeta has no way of killing him and while Juggernaut won't get his hands on Vegeta, Juggeraut will outlast him forever. This is only Juggernaut not to mention Hulk.


----------



## Slips (Apr 18, 2007)

Vynjira said:


> Ok, but now you gotta say in what ways and how those ways would actually make him win. For example, Juggernaut can't be hurt and can't be exhausted and is virtually immortal. Vegeta has no way of killing him and while Juggernaut won't get his hands on Vegeta, Juggeraut will outlast him forever. This is only Juggernaut not to mention Hulk.



cant touch Vegita 

can you imagie how big a double thunderclap from Hulk and Juggs would be


----------



## master bruce (Apr 18, 2007)

war hulk can pull power from two universes and juggernaut can get more powerful by fully tapping into the cyttorak.

Any vegeta won't due.

Vegeta will need to be from buu saga or higher to win.

If this is majin vegeta or higher.

He can simply eliminate jugg's invulnerable @ss from the field by throwing him far far away(from earth).

Hulk won't be that easy, but with vastly superior speed advantage and considering that dbz fighters almost always fight at super high speeds, he'll be able to get plenty of strikes on hulk before hulk can hit him.

War hulk did push back jugg and is one of strongest versions, but vegeta could take him due to speed/techniques/combat skill advantage.

they should be about equal in power.
And the power difference isn't that far apart anyway.
war hulk draws power from two universes(didn't say he could destroy 2, just said he can get power from 2) and vegeta at this point is powerful enough to destroy multiple planets in one blast if he wanted.



anyway,vegeta due to speed/techniques/combat skill advantage.


----------



## Birkin (Apr 18, 2007)

This seems as an old thread. And strength doesn't mean shit if you can't hit the person.


----------



## Orion (Apr 18, 2007)

Goku said:


> This seems as an old thread. And strength doesn't mean shit if you can't hit the person.



Thunderclaps for everyone.


----------



## Birkin (Apr 18, 2007)

How does the thunderclap work? Does it work in the air? Usually thunderclaps are stomping your feet on the ground. And what's the range?


----------



## Orion (Apr 18, 2007)

Goku said:


> How does the thunderclap work? Does it work in the air? Usually thunderclaps are stomping your feet on the ground. And what's the range?



Thunderclaps from hulk and juggs are done with their hands,id have to look for scans for range and stuff,but for the power they have put entire superhero teams on the ground,it will only take a second of disorientation for one of them to catch vegeta,and besides vegeta cannot hurt juggs or war hulk.


----------



## Birkin (Apr 18, 2007)

Final Flash should do the trick.


----------



## Orion (Apr 18, 2007)

Goku said:


> Final Flash should do the trick.



Doubt it,juggs forcefield withstood godblasts which are on par and actually stronger then any dbz move demonstrated,even if his forcefield was pierced he can regenerate,regular hulk is a monster already and war hulk is hulk on drugs with celestial tech.


----------



## Birkin (Apr 18, 2007)

Regeneration doesn't really matter if your whole body has been hit by a powerful blast.


----------



## Pein (Apr 18, 2007)

big bang from vegita would would send hulk and juggs to their grave's


----------



## Thanatos (Apr 18, 2007)

feitan said:


> Thunderclaps from hulk and juggs are done with their hands,id have to look for scans for range and stuff,but for the power they have put entire superhero teams on the ground,it will only take a second of disorientation for one of them to catch vegeta,*and besides vegeta cannot hurt* juggs or *war hulk.*



I think Vegeta could hurt War Hulk... the problem is that he could hardly do any real damage, and anything he did do would be regenerated.

Then again, this also depends on which Vegeta we're talking about. DB Vegeta (i.e. child prince) would be completely powerless to do anything.

EDIT: I missed that by a mile...


----------



## Orion (Apr 18, 2007)

Goku said:


> Regeneration doesn't really matter if your whole body has been hit by a powerful blast.



Again juggs is nigh immortal,he wouldnt die from a final flash,and I still dont see final flash destroying juggs force field or the invulnerability his skin has,we are talking about the guy who has takin angry hulk punches to the face without feeling pain.


----------



## Orion (Apr 18, 2007)

Hmm....what version of juggs are we using,I was assuming its classic or higher....if we are using current juggs then disregard anything I said about him,current juggs is nothing but a punching bag.


----------



## Slips (Apr 18, 2007)

Goku said:


> How does the thunderclap work? Does it work in the air? Usually thunderclaps are stomping your feet on the ground. And what's the range?



iirc possible on these forums from CBG regualr Hulk stopped a universal destroying attack with a thunderclap


----------



## Thanatos (Apr 18, 2007)

Slips said:


> iirc possible on these forums from CBG regualr Hulk stopped a universal destroying attack with a thunderclap



But at the same time most people dislike using that feat, and see it as some kind of anomaly.

I'm not saying thunderclap won't work, merely thought I should make that point.


----------



## Orion (Apr 18, 2007)

Mortalis said:


> But at the same time most people dislike using that feat, and see it as some kind of anomaly.
> 
> I'm not saying thunderclap won't work, merely thought I should make that point.



I think that was a amped up hulk aswell.


----------



## Darklyre (Apr 18, 2007)

Goku said:


> Regeneration doesn't really matter if your whole body has been hit by a powerful blast.



Juggernaut has been hit with power enough to strip him down to his skeleton, and he was still able to move and fight just as normal.


----------



## Slips (Apr 18, 2007)

Mortalis said:


> But at the same time most people dislike using that feat, and see it as some kind of anomaly.
> 
> I'm not saying thunderclap won't work, merely thought I should make that point.



I know as it was a once off same with the moutain feat

Yet it still shows what hes capable off in the right circumstances


----------



## Timur Lane (Apr 18, 2007)

This will happen when Juggernaut gets hit by Final Flash.....


And War Hulk managed to beat him..........

How the hell could Vegeta take on both off them together??

Suck on that fanboys!!!!


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Apr 18, 2007)

I want to stab the noob who necroed this thread in the face.


----------



## Timur Lane (Apr 18, 2007)

Godspeed Redux said:


> I want to stab the noob who necroed this thread in the face.



Pretty much agree with you, this thread needs to die.

I dont have count on how many times jplaya necroed this thread back in the day.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Apr 18, 2007)

With regards to the Dark Cosmos Hulk thunderclap feat, it could easily be accountable for due to the Silver Age being the Silver Age.

In addition, should I close the thread or leave it be?


----------



## azngamer87 (Apr 18, 2007)

If any version of Vegeta can be use then Vegeta would win.All Vegeta needs to do is blow up the planet and leave. This Vegeta I am using is non canon. Hulk and Jugg. can not fly in space so after the planet is destroyed they would be floating around forever. Then Vegeta can just leave so he wins by default.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Apr 18, 2007)

azngamer87 said:


> If any version of Vegeta can be use then Vegeta would win.All Vegeta needs to do is blow up the planet and leave. This Vegeta I am using is non canon. Hulk and Jugg. can not fly in space so after the planet is destroyed they would be floating around forever. Then Vegeta can just leave so he wins by default.



Juggernaut can walk in Space, and Vegeta cannot survive in space


----------



## Thanatos (Apr 18, 2007)

Comic Book Guy said:


> With regards to the Dark Cosmos Hulk thunderclap feat, it could easily be accountable for due to the Silver Age being the Silver Age.
> 
> In addition, should I close the thread or leave it be?



I honestly think you should close it, lest it ever gets necroposted again. 

Otherwise it will merely be a repeated cycle of people telling newbie necroposters why Vegeta would lose (and I'm getting sick of him losing  ).


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Apr 18, 2007)

True. Though, I'm going to wait for more votes to close this thread. Seems proper.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Apr 18, 2007)

Kill this thread with fire.


----------



## Havoc (Apr 18, 2007)

Leave it open, OB isn't that great nowadays anyway...one thread wont make a difference.


----------



## Vynjira (Apr 18, 2007)

> juggs forcefield withstood godblasts which are on par and actually stronger then any dbz move demonstrated,


Juggernaut withstood the god-blast WITHOUT the forcefield. He merely used the forcefield when Thor wanted to hit him with the Hammer.





Goku said:


> Regeneration doesn't really matter if your whole body has been hit by a powerful blast.


His soul is literally bound to his body by Cyttorak. No amount of damage will separate his body from his soul. 

His body has only ever been damaged when his power source was weakened, siphoned, cut off or in the rarest cases a writer did not fully understand the extent of Cyttorak's power and wrote Juggernaut with less than the limitless powers from Cyttorak.

Juggernaut is inexhaustible, to the purest use of the word. He cannot and will not weaken while he retains his power. Regeneration, taking hits and so on, he will not get tired or need rest ever. Juggernaut is solely sustained by Cyttorak, he doesn't need to eat, breathe or sleep. *He can fight forever, literally.*

Thor has cut Juggernaut off from Cyttorak only to realize that a great amount of strength and durability were retained and that even without the limitless power he was not gonna be able to physically beat Juggernaut. (Altho Thor could not use his hammer to fight the weakened Juggernaut because it was being used to keep him weakened.)

D'spayre siphoned Juggernaut's own limitless power into blasts of energy against him and wore away all of Juggernaut's flesh. Despite this Juggernaut continued to prove his inexhaustible energies. Once his full power was no longer being siphoned away from him he regenerated to full.

In essence unless your a vastly powerful magical or reality warping entity, your not going to defeat Juggernaut.

Meanwhile War-Hulk is so massively powerful physically there would be virtually no way for Vegeta to damage him and keep him from regenerating. Which means Hulk would only get stronger.


----------



## mystictrunks (Apr 18, 2007)

Eh Vegeta has no way of stopping the Unstoppable,I'm not a big Hulk fan so I can't say anything about the Hulk.

But since he'd tire out fighting Jugs he loses.


----------



## Kuya (Apr 19, 2007)

can't believe this was revived


----------



## Parallax (Apr 20, 2007)

All this makes me wonder how in the hell the Marvel U stands a chance in WWH.


----------



## Shuntensatsu (Apr 20, 2007)

99 out of100 people don't have any idea what War Hulk is.

Most of the world has an idea of what Dragonballz is.  

Thus the poll is very inaccurate, if more people had read or even heard of War Hulk the vote would likely be changed drastically.


----------



## master bruce (Apr 20, 2007)

warhulk is the version of hulk that is created by Apocoliks turning him into one of his horsemen and giving him a massive power upgrade.

Warhulk has all the powers of the hulk except he is not as limitlessly strong as Regular savage hulk(the potentially strongest version of hulk)

Warhulk is capable of incredible regeneration and can draw power from two universes.

He was able to stop juggernaut during a full charge(something that is suppose to be impossible) he even began to push juggernaut back a few yards in the comic.


That just alittle info on war hulk for those who don't know.

That in mind.

SSJ four vegeta could give him a good fight as long as vegeta uses his massive speed advantage to keep from getting hit by hulk.


Juggernaut can ,As I said before, just be removed from the batteground like thrown into the sun or some planet  with strong gravity that will bound him there, unless we are using the 8 th day juggernaut, or trion(*cough cyttorak Cough*(I doubt we are though) then juggs cannot do teleporting/dimension ripping to get back, so he is stuck where ever vegeta throws him if the gravity is strong there.


That leaves vegeta and war hulk.

If SSj4 vegeta can use his speed to keep from getting grabbed or hit much then he can win.

If he is arrogant(like he usually is) he will do something crazy and get killed.
Or he could just go high into the air and blow the whole planet up and use the energy bubble like goku did(when namek blew up) to keep from sufficating in space.


I know who war hulk is, but still don't count vegeta out that easily.


----------



## Darklyre (Apr 20, 2007)

Actually, a gravity well wouldn't hold Juggernaut. Unless that gravity well was powered by magic surpassing Cytorrak, then Juggernaut will simply walk out of it. He's quite literally a metaphysical force, since he can simply disregard the laws of physics.


----------



## master bruce (Apr 20, 2007)

I want to be an anbu or at least a hokage level ranking.

Be glad when my under av says something higher/better.


----------



## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

Vegeta destroyed a planet with his Galick gun when his power level was just about 20,000.

Now it would be over 1,000,000,000...

If he could easily destroy a planet that easily when he was weak then what do you think a big bang attack would do to Juggernaut?

It would pretty much demolish him.

I know Juggy is stronger than a nuch of Rocks (Planet) but Vegeta has gotten so much stronger.

If he directed the intensity of his blast at Juggernaut then Juggy would die.

So he is 50,000 times stronger than he was when he easily destroyed that planet.

Which would mean he could essentially easily destroy 50,000 planets with one blast.

Now if he powered up to SSJ2 and charged up the blast for a bit he could most likely double that power.

If one of these two could survive something like that then I'd give them props.

Not only that but the aftermath would result in the destruction of every near Solar System.

No heat, no Oxygen, No pressure.

= Death


----------



## mystictrunks (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Vegeta destroyed a planet with his Galick gun when his power level was just about 20,000.
> 
> Now it would be over 1,000,000,000...
> 
> ...



Juggernaut doesn't need any of those things. He's literally unstoppable. He's survived in space before and been incinerated.

Hulk can survive in space now as well,and has no problem with extreme temperatures.


----------



## Orion (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Vegeta destroyed a planet with his Galick gun when his power level was just about 20,000.
> 
> Now it would be over 1,000,000,000...
> 
> ...


Vegeta has never destroyed a planet let alone a solar system,juggernaut is completely immortal and doesnt tire,he doesnt have eat sleep drink or breathe,has takin godblasts from a serious thor who is leagues above any damage vegeta ever did and just laughed,war hulk overpowered juggernaut do the math vegeta gets litterally ripped in two pieces.


----------



## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

Ok get this.

Master Roshi blew up the moon with a 160 power level or so.

Vegeta's power level is well over 1,000,000,000 by the time DBZ ends.

YOU do the math.

I know for a FACT that Big Bang attack and Final Flash are both stronger than Roshi's Kamehamahe.

The moon is what, 1/6 of the earth mass?

160 x 6 = 960.

So you'd need to have about the power level of 1,000 to destroy the Earth.

WOW!

Considering Frieza had a power level of ONE MILLION I'm sure Frieza could rip the galazy to shreds.

Not to mention Vegeta surpasses Frieza 10 fold by the end of DBZ if not MORE.

In fact it should be a LOT more.

Kid Buu was destroying whole Galaxies in seconds.

He got to Other World in a short time destroying every planet in his way.

Vegeta is weaker than Kid Buu but the differenece isn't THAT great.

A blast from Vegeta would not only tear apart Juggies armor, but his skin, and would also demolish all of his muscle and bone mass.


----------



## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

*Juggernaut, doesn't need sleep, doesn't need to eat, doesn't need to breathe and will not die. Vegeta cannot harm Juggernaut or so much as phase Juggernaut with ANY level attack he posses.*


----------



## Orion (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Ok get this.
> 
> Master Roshi blew up the moon with a 160 power level or so.
> 
> ...



Kidd buu never destroyed a galaxy nub cakes,frieza with his over 1 million power level couldnt outright destroy a planet when he tried either,and juggs cannot die what the fuck is so hard about this,he is immortal and untiring.


----------



## mystictrunks (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Ok get this.
> 
> Master Roshi blew up the moon with a 160 power level or so.
> 
> ...



Even if,and that is a big if, the blast could rip Jugs to shreads it wouldn't matter. he doesn't need a body. He's is quite literally unstoppable.


----------



## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

Takens traight from Wikipedia.



> Freeza, out of fear of an impending uprising, kills King Vegeta and destroys Planet Vegeta, along with all Saiyans



Frieza wiped out a planet and all of it's inhabitants with a single blast from his finger...

And I already gave you evidence that Vegeta can destroy a planet.

Roshi destroyed the moon with a power level of 160.

So obviously someone wtih ONE BILLION power level can destroy the Earth.

Here is proof from Wikipedia that Kid Buu destroys palnets easily.



> Regenerating after the explosion, Kid Buu goes off in search of Goku and Vegeta, teleporting to many planets as he goes and destroying them upon sensing the Saiyans' absence.


----------



## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> So you'd need to have about the power level of 1,000 to destroy the Earth.
> 
> WOW!
> 
> Considering Frieza had a power level of ONE MILLION I'm sure Frieza could rip the galazy to shreds.


I fear you don't quite understand just how much bigger a Galaxy is... than a fucking planet...

Typical galaxies range from dwarfs with as few as 100,000,000,000,000 stars up to giants with one trillion 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars.

Stars.. not planets and not including planets and other masses inside a galaxy. Stars can be upwards of half a million times bigger than planets... Your claiming that times power level 1,000 destroys a planet right? then by simple math 1,000,000 isn't even enough to destroy a SINGLE star.

Don't even kid yourself with power levels not a single one is even fucking close to the power required to take out a single galaxy.





mystictrunks said:


> Even if,and that is a big if, the blast could rip Jugs to shreads it wouldn't matter. he doesn't need a body. He's is quite literally unstoppable.


Exactly.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> So obviously someone wtih ONE BILLION power level can destroy the Earth.



Sure he can, but the point you're not getting is "so what?"

He destroys earth.  Big deal.  That won't kill either War Hulk or Juggernaut, it'll only piss them off.

Meanwhile, in canon Vegeta can't survive without an atmosphere, so he's quite quickly dieing.

How's he win again?


----------



## mystictrunks (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Takens traight from Wikipedia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Regular Hulk destroyed an object twice the size of earth. Your point?


----------



## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

I never said he would destroy the planet.

I'm showign you how much energy Vegeta can Namipulate into a single blast strong enough to destroy a planet.

If he's strong enough to destroy a planet at the start of the series with a weak attack then by the end of the series he could definately destroy a planet.

Instead of hiting the planet though he'd hit Juggernaut.

That would surely either kill him or render him useless.

The magnitude of the blast Vegeta shoots at him would be strong enough to destroy hundreds upon hundreds of planets.

All of that into one smalla rea would freaking kill you =p

And to the guy up there who said Frieza couldn'te ven destroy a star...

Mind you that he destroyed the Planet just by waving his finger.

Obviously your calculations are going to be off because you used his 1,000,000 power level without understanding how easily he destroyed tha planet.


----------



## mystictrunks (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> I never said he would destroy the planet.
> 
> I'm showign you how much energy Vegeta can Namipulate into a single blast strong enough to destroy a planet.
> 
> ...



Juggernaut has regen,with the _infinite_ power or cyrotak(sp?) he would regen a few moments after the blast hit him. And that's if it bypasses his godly invincibility,and by godly I mean granted by a god.


----------



## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

Benefit of the doubt here, best power level in GT which isn't canon but to prove the point.

2,000,000,000

So lets give Vegeta a power level of 10,000,000,000

Now we'll use a Dwarf Galaxy with only stars so the smallest galaxy with no planets or other objects. Just stars.

1,000 is planet busting right?
So Vegeta is gonna bust 10,000,000 planets pretty sweet. The smallest emptiest Galaxy with average sized stars would require more power than what would be needed to destroy 33,294,600,000,000,000,000 planets.

So giving Vegeta every odd and making him way stronger than anyone has pretended he was. He's still a good 3,329,460,000,000 times too weak...

3 Quadrillion, OVER 3 Quadrillion times too weak... and that with him being some thousand times stronger than he was in GT... and thats nowhere near the size of a real galaxy...



Badalight said:


> Obviously your calculations are going to be off because you used his 1,000,000 power level without understanding how easily he destroyed tha planet.


No, Vegeta cannot destroy a galaxy.


----------



## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

Here is a picture of what Frieza did by moving his finger.



Thats Frieza shooting out a huge blast easily destroying planet Vegeta.

Now if Frieza went to 100% power he could make a blast 10x that size.

And that is when Frieza is at 1,000,000 power level.

By the end of the series Vegeta can practicaly kill Frieza with a single punch.

Obviously meaning Vegeta can do far worse.

Do you think thats not Godly?

And yes Vegeta COULD destroy a Galaxy. He just couldnt' do it in one blast.


----------



## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

Vegeta's still over a quintillion times too weak to destroy a galaxy.

NO AMOUNT of physical force including destroying a Galaxy is going to kill Juggernaut. Juggernaut's not gonna be hurt or stopped by Vegeta.


----------



## mystictrunks (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Here is a picture of what Frieza did by moving his finger.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Vegeta couldn't destroy a Galaxy. He wouldn't be able to destroy every planet from Earth,and he has no way of moving from planet to planet.


----------



## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

What you need to understand is no matter what kind of force Vegeta uses Juggernaut isn't going to be hurt or weakened.

1 quintillion is the same as 100 to Juggernaut. The amount doesn't change the outcome with him. Other characters yes, Juggernaut No.


----------



## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

Alright here is a realistic power level for Vegeta at the end of the series.

350,000,000

Excuse me for the extreme high level I had said earlier, I was gettting my GT and DBZ mixed up. (I'm not including GT in this argument)

That still means Vegeta is 350x stronger the Frieza in his 2nd form.

Frieza when he destroyed planet Vegeta was close to 500,000.

Essentially Vegeta is 700x stronger than when Frieza easily destroyed planet Vegeta.

Thus if Vegeta charged up a Final Flash he could do a blast with enough strength to destroy at least 1000 Planets.

Sorry, maby destroying a galaxy is a bit too much for Vegeta.

But with a with blast able to destroy 1,000 planets directed at Juggernaut, or War Hulk, they wouldn't survive it. And if they did they'd be rendered useless.


----------



## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> But with a with blast able to destroy 1,000 planets directed at Juggernaut or War Hulk they wouldn't survive it. And if they ddi they'd be rendered useless.


With a force purely directed at Juggernaut that could destroy 15 trillion planets, Juggernaut would not only survive he'd smile and claimed it tickled.

Do not make another claim that Juggernaut will be hurt or killed. Its not happening.


----------



## mystictrunks (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Alright here is a realistic power level for Vegeta at the end of the series.
> 
> 350,000,000
> 
> ...



They both have enough regen to get back up from it in seconds or at the worst minutes.


----------



## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

> He now needed to breathe, and, while still highly super-strong, possessed only a fraction of the strength he once wielded. He also became mortal and could be killed by relatively minor amounts of punishment. Finally, he was no longer an "unstoppable force", and was stripped of his mystical armour and telepathy-shielding helmet (instead wearing "unstable molecule" replicas.



Taken from Wikipedia.

Obviously Juggernaut lost his great powers the he once had.

Vegeta could easily kill Juggernaut in this state.


----------



## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Taken from Wikipedia.
> 
> Obviously Juggernaut lost his great powers the he once had.
> 
> Vegeta could easily kill Juggernaut in this state.


Here's the thing regardless of what he is now, Vegeta isn't fighting the current Juggernaut. You can't alter the version because you don't like the outcome.


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## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

Aw. so to beat Vegeta your Juggernaut has to go back in time?  

Fine ok, no problem then.

Juggernaut can't even hit Vegeta due to his Speed.

Also Vegeta has huge Determination and the most fighting Spirit out of any Z warrior.

You just don't see him giving up until he's dead.

He wouldn't lose to someone like Juggernaut, especially if Juggernaut couldn't hit him.



Vynjira said:


> Here's the thing regardless of what he is now, Vegeta isn't fighting the current Juggernaut. You can't alter the version because you don't like the outcome.



How about taking your own advice =p

Your saying Vegeta has to fight the old Version of juggernaut.

Thats altering the version because you don't like the outcome.

Why can't Vegeta be fighting the new Juggernaut?

Take your own advice man.


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## mystictrunks (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Aw. so to beat Vegeta your Juggernaut has to go back in time?
> 
> Fine ok, no problem then.
> 
> ...



He has no way of hurting him...He'd run out of energy and then Juggs would squish him.


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## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Aw. so to beat Vegeta your Juggernaut has to go back in time?


Actually, Juggernaut lost his powers after GT ended... so Vegeta would have to go forward in time to fight a future Juggernaut. So no.





> Juggernaut can't even hit Vegeta due to his Speed.


So Vegeta stays out of range for how long? How long is he gonna be able to stay awake? Juggernaut doesn't need to sleep or eat. Vegeta does, he also gets tired.





> You jsut don't se ehim giving up until he's dead.


Which is what he would be a dead saiyan.





> He wouldn't lose to someone like Juggernaut, especially if Juggernaut couldn't hit him.


He would loose very easily to a person like Juggernaut. To think otherwise is a huge underestimation of the powers in Juggernaut's possession.





Badalight said:


> And what do you mean I can't alter the versions because I don't like the outcome? Thats EXACTLY what your doing. Your saying Vegeta has to fight the old Juggernaut and not the new one.
> 
> How about taking your own advice =p


How bout checking the all the pages. The version was determined over a year ago. Your attempting to change that to make it your outcome. I am not, your argument was based on this classic version until you realized that version couldn't be hurt then you attempted to alter the scenario.

Read before you post.


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## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

Vynjira said:


> Here's the thing regardless of what he is now, Vegeta isn't fighting the current Juggernaut. You can't alter the version because you don't like the outcome.



When did it say Vegeta had to fight the old version of Juggernaut?

Hell IT NEVER DID.

You said "You can't alter the version because you don't like the outcome."

What do you think your doing?

Your making vegeta have to fight the old Juggernaut for no reason instead of the current one.

Your doing exactly what you told me not to do.

Take your own advice man.


----------



## mystictrunks (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> When did it say Vegeta had to fight the old version of Juggernaut?
> 
> Hell IT NEVER DID.
> 
> ...



Unless specified in the BD we use characters in their most "classic" state when it comes to comics.


----------



## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

I'm sure Juggernaut hasn't always had Invincibility.

By Classic I guess you mean most overpowerd  

In the rules of this board it mentions to not use DBZ characters in the battle dome because they are to overpowered, they didn't mention Juggernaut or hulk.

If you havn't watched DBZ your not going to understand how undeniably strong they are.


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## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> When did it say Vegeta had to fight the old version of Juggernaut?


Read the thread.





> What do you think your doing?


I'm telling you to pay attention.





> Your making vegeta have to fight the old Juggernaut for no reason instead of the current one.


Its been that way for over a year.





> Your doing exactly what you told me not to do.


Your digging your own hole.

This also doesn't change the fact, you were fine with the version until you found the version couldn't be defeated by physical force. You entered a debate without knowing anything about the character and now you wanna change the terms, not since your first post, not since your second, not since your third... get over it.





Badalight said:


> I'm sure Juggernaut hasn't always had Invincibility.


Juggernaut with powers has always been invincible. Thats the point of using the classic version or most recognizable.





> By Classic I guess you mean most overpowerd


8th Day Juggernaut, Trion Juggernaut. Both are more over-powered. If your gonna cry about every unfair advantage then you may as well leave the BD.





> In the rules of this board it mentions to not use DBZ characters in the battle dome because they are to overpowered, they didn't mention Juggernaut or hulk.


Thats funny, your taking a joke seriously and out of context.. way to go...





> If you havn't watched DBZ your not going to understand how undeniably strong they are.


Thats a funny claim, coming from someone who just an hour ago didn't know anything about Juggernaut and claiming he could be killed while in possession of his powers.

So back to the comment about advice...


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## mystictrunks (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> I'm sure Juggernaut hasn't always had Invincibility.
> 
> By Classic I guess you mean most overpowerd


Since his introduction in 1965(or 66) he's been portrayed as unstoppable,and invincible with his only weakness being telepathic assaults.



> In the rules of this board it mentions to not use DBZ characters in the battle dome because they are to overpowered, they didn't mention Juggernaut or hulk.
> 
> If you havn't watched DBZ your not going to understand how undeniably strong they are.




I know DBZ inside out. Many series,and individual characters are leaps and bounds above them.


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## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

Did I ever say I considered the Juggernaut as Unstoppable?

For your information I knew Juggernaut was strong coming into this debate.

I stared complaining when you made your witty comment  

And it does NOT say anywhere in this thread that they were talking about the old Juggernaut.

People assumed that it was and was implied just because he's going up against Vegeta.

But whatever, it's a Versus thread for a reason, people arn't supposed to agree with eachother. Or else it wouldn't be called a versus thread.

More like a... "How many people Like Goku over Sephiroth thread."

Stuff like that.

But seriously now...

Vegeta wouldn't run out of energy before disabling Juggernaut.

Spiderman had Juggernaut trapped for quite awhile under a bunch of Rubble so I am pretty sure Vegeta could do the same, actaully I'm positive because obviously Vegeta is stronger than Spiderman.

How easy is it to throw a big mountain on Juggernaut? Not very tough.


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## mystictrunks (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> And it does NOT say anywhere in this thread that they were talking about the old Juggernaut.


Yes it does actually.




> Vegeta wouldn't run out of energy before disabling Juggernaut.
> 
> Spiderman had Juggernaut trapped for quite awhile under a bunch of Rubble so I am pretty sure Vegeta could do the same, actaully I'm positive because obviously Vegeta is stronger than Spiderman.


That was jobbing.




> How easy is it to throw a big mountain on Juggernaut? Not very tough.



. . . .


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## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Spiderman had Juggernaut



Spiderman along with tons of superheroes AVOID Juggernaut and LET him commit crimes.

Unless your Thor, who does try to stop him even tho he doesn't know what Juggernaut is up to. Then again shortly after he makes the attempt, he is reminded why its a bad idea... Same with Hulk, but those two are hardly the most intelligent superheroes... if you catch my drift.

Most heroes will even let their teammates get a beating from Juggernaut rather than get involved. Spiderman has at times hopped in to ask Juggernaut to take it easy on those who don't understand Juggernaut's abilities.


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## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

Your right.

I'm not the biggest marvel/DC fanatic.

The two things I grew up with were

DBZ

and

Super Hereos

Frankly I really don't care who would win this fight since I like both sides pretty much equally.

Now since if you think Juggernaut is COMPLETELY invicnible then putting him into a battledome thread is pointless.

Obviously he can't lose.

Now he may not be able to win but he can't lose.

Vegeta is much to fast for Juggy as stated MANY times in this thread.

If Vegeta ran out of energy he could take a senzu bean or fly to the other side of Earth and take a breather.

He also has more experience in fighting.

And remember saiyans get stronger every near death experience they have.

If Vegeta escapes Death from Juggernaut he'll only come back stronger than before.

Juggernaut, while he fights a lot, he isn't accustomed to losing.

His fighting is likely to be more sloppy than Vegeta's.

And yes a DBZ characters strength, especially Vegeta's, could pick up a Mountain easily, no doubt about it.


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## mystictrunks (Apr 21, 2007)

Goku had trouble lifting a few tons towards the end of the manga.


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## Darklyre (Apr 21, 2007)

God, this thread reminds me of that debate between Jplaya and the definition of "omnipotence."


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## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

Do you have any proof of that?

Show me a scan and I'll believe you.

I remember Goku being able to lift a pyramid early in the series and they have gotten a hell of a lot stronger since then.


----------



## Donkey Show (Apr 21, 2007)

He's new to the battledome.  He'll soon see the ways. XD


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## mystictrunks (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Do you have any proof of that?
> 
> Show me a scan and I'll believe you.
> 
> I remember Goku being able to lift a pyramid early in the series and they have gotten a hell of a lot stronger since then.



That was a filler scene,like several other feats you've posted.

Goku had trouble lifting 10 tons spread while training with King Kai in the after life right before the 25th world tournament. He had to go Super Saiyan in order to move.


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## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

I'd still love to see the scans.

If you show me those I'll have no arguments left and I can go to bed.

Because, well, if it's in the manga, I'm not going to question the creator and how strong he wanted his characters to be.


----------



## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Now since if you think Juggernaut is COMPLETELY invicnible then putting him into a battledome thread is pointless.
> 
> Obviously he can't lose.


Doesn't mean he can't be beat or stalemated. He's been in a couple tough calls. It means physical force isn't how you beat him. Telepaths, Sorcerers or even other immortals and physically superior beings.





> Now he may not be able to win but he can't lose.


A telepath can win, Dr. Strange can win and so on.





> Vegeta is much to fast for Juggy as stated MANY times in this thread.


Because Vegeta is going to hide from Juggernaut...





> If Vegeta ran out of energy he could take a senzu bean or fly to the other side of Earth and take a breather.


Normally in these fights unless stated they only have what they bring with them which is what they have normally... meaning no Senzu beans..





> He also has more experience in fighting.


Highly doubt that... more skill yes, experience... prolly not.





> And remember saiyans get stronger every near death experience they have.


So he gets stronger for how long... how long can Vegeta live? 100 years? Will he be able to stay out of range that whole time? No. He will get tired he will make mistakes and he will run out of energy.





> And yes a DBZ characters strength, especially Vegeta's, could pick up a Mountain easily, no doubt about it.


Really cause not once in the series has anyone picked up a mountain nor was it ever implied they could. Infact they proceeded to show he couldn't lift over 200 tons. Thats not much more than a hill..


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## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> I'd still love to see the scans.
> 
> If you show me those I'll have no arguments left and I can go to bed.
> 
> Because, well, if it's in the manga, I'm not going to question the creator and how strong he wanted his characters to be.




Also it showed Piccolo MENTALLY lifting Pyramids in the ANIME and only the ANIME... not a good back up.


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## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

Don't ask me why it was, it doesn't make sense to me either... I mean Christ Goku @ 5 could lift a car over his head... their cars must be some space age light weight plastic...

Or simply their strength is unrelated to their power level..


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## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

Obviously in the anime it was implied they had great strengths.

No I'm waiting to see scans of Goku having trouble lifting 10 tons before I call it quits.

And don't make assumptions buddy, thats the worst thing you can do.

And yes I am saying Vegeta would Obviously have to run if he can't even hurt Juggernaut.

Saiyans live longer than humans to, by a long shot.

So it should be more than 100 years anyway.

Now Vegeta gets a LOT stronger every near death experience he has.

if he had enough of those he'd end up pretty tough =p

And it's not hard to zip to the other side of the world to grab a senzu bean from Korin.

Or just fun away and take a breather.

It's pretty much a stale mate between them at this point if Juggernaut is TRULEY invincible.

But there is no proof that Juggernaut can withstand a blast strong enough to blow up 1,000 planets.

Sure it may be implied but there isn't any proof.


----------



## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

Ha ha!

Oh yes I remember that in the anime now, pretty dissapointing to.

Although Goku still does get quite a bit tougher towards the end of the anime and in the manga.

And remember 40 tons there is harder than 40 tons on earth.

But whatever.

I'm done for today.

Obviously it either results in a stale mate or Vegeta losing since it's technically impossible for him to win.

Nice find.


----------



## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

> Saiyans live longer than humans to, by a long shot.


Duh?





> So it should be more than 100 years anyway.


Despite he's already like 40?





> if he had enough of those he'd end up pretty tough =p


Still not tough enough.





> And it's not hard to zip to the other side of the world to grab a senzu bean from Korin.


Right because Senzu beans are rare and now the fight is taking place inside the DBU instead of the standard amalgam world. Furthermore its become Vegeta and Korin's Senzu beans... No.





> It's pretty much a stale mate between them at this point if Juggernaut is TRULEY invincible.


You have a habit of missing the point. Vegeta isn't by any stretch of the imagination immortal. Juggernaut is, Juggernaut can also knock Vegeta out cold with a Thunder clap.





> But there is no proof that Juggernaut can withstand a blast strong enough to blow up 1,000 planets.


Thor's God-blast.





> Sure it may be implied but there isn't any proof.


Actually, he withstood a God-blast and smiled..

Seeing as the argument has ignored a key factor... War-Hulk is still there as well and if you think he's gonna sit there and watch Vegeta do nothing to Juggernaut then your mistaken.. Thunder-Clap.


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## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

I already said I'm done.

If you read my other post under yours.

And I highly doubt Vegeta would go down with ONE hit.

Vegeta may not be able to hurt Juggernaut but I know he can take a punch.

Vegeta just doesn't give up that easily.

And how strong is Thors blast?

Does it ever give an example of how much damage it can do?

I'd like proof to see that it's stronger than vegeta's Final Flash.

And this is my other post incase you missed it



Badalight said:


> Ha ha!
> 
> Oh yes I remember that in the anime now, pretty dissapointing to.
> 
> ...


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Apr 21, 2007)

Are you *seriously* asking us to prove that the powers of freaking ODIN are stronger than Vegeta's weak ass?


----------



## Badalight (Apr 21, 2007)

Because you want me to prove everything I say =p

Does it ever say that Thor even has the power to destroy one planet?

I've never read any comic with Thor in it so I wouldn't but tell me.

Where in the comics does it say how strong that attack is?

Please share it with me.

I don't think a blast from Thor is stronger tahn a force strong enough to destroy 1,000 planets concentrated into one spot.


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## master bruce (Apr 21, 2007)

stop vegeta bashing.


He can't beat juggernaut, its already fucking been said, stop beating a dead horse.

He can ring out juggernaut by tossing him somewhere far away.
Hence juggernaut is out via being taken off the battlefield.
So whoever posted me the stupid@$$ PM, sorry to disappoint you, retard.

And oh, yeah, you said juggernaut would not just stand there and let vegeta throw him. 

Well tell me what the juck is juggernaut gonna do if vegeta is standing there(like 100 yards away) and suddenly just standing right in his face before he can even blink or get a word out(juggernaut likes to talk thrash alot) of his mouth before vegeta has already hit him with force that his been shown many times to send large enemies several football fields away, even destroy small mountains,put huge craters in the ground. So vegeta could easily speed blitz throw his ass away from the planet, or just grab his legs and swing him around and powerup(vegeta has done this to enemies capable of multi-planet busting), then throw his ass out of orbit. This means he is removed from the battlefield.


And as for what you said about vegeta and warhulk,I know all about warhulk, or course vegeta isn't gonna just beat him down. I never said anything implicating that.

I said if vegeta can use his "massive" speed advantage to speedblitz repeatedly and not get grabbed by warhulk or hit by warhulk then vegeta can stand a chance of concussing him with many many many many head punches.
Dbz fighters are accustomed to battering enemies and throwing hundreds/thousands of powerful blows/strikes during a long hard battle.

So suck on that you fucking prick and don't PM me anymore Bullsh$t.

Now go read a book, retard.


----------



## Bullet (Apr 21, 2007)

Vegeta loses.


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## Havoc (Apr 21, 2007)

Bullet said:


> Vegeta loses.



Award winning post


----------



## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

master bruce said:


> And oh, yeah, you said juggernaut would not just stand there and let vegeta throw him.


He'd have to TOUCH Juggernaut to throw him. Thor chucked his hammer known for going over lightspeed and Juggernaut put his forcefield up before it touched him.



> Well tell me what the juck is juggernaut gonna do if vegeta is standing there(like 100 yards away) and suddenly just standing right in his face before he can even blink or get a word out(juggernaut likes to talk thrash alot)


No, Juggernaut doesn't talk trash alot. He normally just starts fighting.





> of his mouth before vegeta has already hit him with force that his been shown many times to send large enemies several football fields away,


Size and Mass are different things, Vegeta would break every bone in his hand if he just tried to slam it into Juggernaut. 





> So vegeta could easily speed blitz throw his ass away from the planet, or just grab his legs and swing him around and powerup(vegeta has done this to enemies capable of multi-planet busting), then throw his ass out of orbit.


He's never been shown to throw anyone further than a mile not to mention someone with as much mass as Juggernaut and before you claim he can think about what Juggernaut can do to interrupt him.





> This means he is removed from the battlefield.


Unfortunatly, unless otherwise stated by the OP Ringouts don't count for victory. No DQ counts for a victory unless specifically stated.





> I said if vegeta can use his "massive" speed advantage to speedblitz repeatedly and not get grabbed by warhulk or hit by warhulk then vegeta can stand a chance of concussing him with many many many many head punches.


Which wouldn't phase Hulk in the least... are you seriously claiming Vegeta can hit with enough force that Hulk would be so much as bruised? Whats to stop Hulk from Thunder-Clapping and knocking Vegeta out cold?





> Dbz fighters are accustomed to battering enemies and throwing hundreds/thousands of powerful blows/strikes during a long hard battle.


Yea it'd be impressive if they could hurt either one of them.





> So suck on that you fucking prick and don't PM me anymore Bullsh$t.


I didn't PM you.


----------



## Phenomenol (Apr 21, 2007)

This again?

Vegeta will beat Juggernaut by a ring out by Blasting him off the planet with a powerful Ki blast. The same with War Hulk!

Vegeta wins.


----------



## Random Nobody (Apr 21, 2007)

There's no ring, so how is he gonna ring them out?  It's a fight to the finish.


----------



## Phenomenol (Apr 21, 2007)

Vegeta will BLAST Jugg's and Hulk off the planet.


----------



## Random Nobody (Apr 21, 2007)

They can survive in space.


----------



## Aruarian (Apr 21, 2007)

Random Nobody, meet Phenomenol. He's the resident DBZ-tard that refuses to accept logic when ever it means a Dragonball character will lose.

If you blast Juggs off the planet, he'll simply walk back. I think Vegeta will probably be stupid enough to try that suicide attack before long, anyway.


----------



## Phenomenol (Apr 21, 2007)

Yet, NOONE at this forum can seem to counter my arguments!!! You know nothing about the hulk and Juggernaut so I will cease debating with no-named posters.


----------



## Aruarian (Apr 21, 2007)

Well, I rather think that people CAN counter your arguments, and have done so by the boatloads in the past. You simply chose to ignore them all, use anime feats as 'cannon' and so on, so most just quit trying. I mean, it's no use in trying to persuade a DBZ fanboy that some things just aren't moving at c.


----------



## Darklyre (Apr 21, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Because you want me to prove everything I say =p
> 
> Does it ever say that Thor even has the power to destroy one planet?
> 
> ...



Thor's Godblast is directly powered by the Odinforce.

Odin could toss Vegeta into a black hole just by thinking about it.


----------



## Vynjira (Apr 21, 2007)

Phenomenol said:


> Yet, NOONE at this forum can seem to counter my arguments!!! You know nothing about the hulk and Juggernaut so I will cease debating with no-named posters.


Noone? I seem to remember DBZ not being faster than light...


----------



## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

Shalashaska said:


> Random Nobody, meet Phenomenol. He's the resident DBZ-tard that refuses to accept logic when ever it means a Dragonball character will lose.
> 
> If you blast Juggs off the planet, he'll simply walk back. I think Vegeta will probably be stupid enough to try that suicide attack before long, anyway.



Oh I've met him, he keeps claiming that DBZ characters are light speed because, and I quote "Ki blasts are LIGHT!!!!!"


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## omgbbq (Apr 22, 2007)

their reflexes are faster than light, but their speed ain't.


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

Where was it stated they could react to Light Speed?


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## Vynjira (Apr 22, 2007)

Keep in mind when you answer that your expected to use canon material. Another point is if you show us someone claiming they are it needs to go uncontradicted.

Also their reflexes aren't likely anywhere near lightspeed. There is no reason to believe they have reflexes that much higher when there are other more plausible explanations that make sense when compared to the feats given.


----------



## Chocochip (Apr 22, 2007)

Is war hulk the hulk that jumped from planetto planet? Because if it isn't, reachign Vegeta while he isin air would be a problem in the first place....


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

Not really, Savage Hulk could jump Higher then Vegeta's flown.


----------



## Slips (Apr 22, 2007)

Random Nobody said:


> Not really, Savage Hulk could jump Higher then Vegeta's flown.



base Hulk has nigh on reached orbit irrc


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## Fang (Apr 22, 2007)

Vegeta loses hard.


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## Vynjira (Apr 22, 2007)

thegoodjae said:


> Is war hulk the hulk that jumped from planetto planet? Because if it isn't, reachign Vegeta while he isin air would be a problem in the first place....


No, War-Hulk was far stronger than the planet Jumping Hulk from Secret Wars.


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## master bruce (Apr 22, 2007)

hulk once jumped into space off vertical.
imagine hulk on a b-ball court.


anyway dude, vegeta's only chance is to speedblitz like hell and then powerup and blow everything up with one uber powerful blast, then maybe hulk will be knocked out.

Notice I didn't say hulk will be killed, cause he won't, not unless you'd have to fuse vegeta with goku and form ssj2 vegeto or ssj2 gogeta.

If vegeta doesn't speedblitz, he will die from a few warhulk punches.
Speeblitz is his only way to daze/stagger hulk enough to allow time to charge a blast powerful enough to knock war hulk out.


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

I'm not sure but hasn't Hulk taken Planet busting levels of damage before?  Could have sworn he has.


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## Slips (Apr 22, 2007)

Random Nobody said:


> I'm not sure but hasn't Hulk taken Planet busting levels of damage before?  Could have sworn he has.



He thunderclaped an attack that had the power to wipe out an universe

it only happened the once but hell it happened


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

Slips said:


> He thunderclaped an attack that had the power to wipe out an universe
> 
> it only happened the once but hell it happened



Well that cinches it then, Vegeta gets horribly raped in this fight.  He can't physically hurt the Hulk and the Hulk can thunderclap his attacks away.  Hell adding Juggernaught to this just means Vegeta gets raped twice.


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## Phenomenol (Apr 22, 2007)

Vynjira said:


> Noone? I seem to remember DBZ not being faster than light...



Oh, only the Bias DBZ haters at this forum has denied that. I already showed proof that Tienshinhan has a move that is Lightspeed, Ki blasts are lightspeed.


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

What move?  Show me a scan of Tien or someone else stating its light speed.


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## Phenomenol (Apr 22, 2007)

Random Nobody said:


> What move?  Show me a scan of Tien or someone else stating its light speed.



*Rekka Kōsoku-ken Light-Speed Fury Punch*, in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai.


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

Light Speed in the name doesn't mean its Light Speed, Vegeta has Big Bang but its nowhere near as powerful as the Big Bang.


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## Phenomenol (Apr 22, 2007)

Rekka Kōsoku-ken Light-Speed Fury Punch, Tenshinhan moves his '''arms''' faster than can be seen, creating a vacuum that sucks his opponent in and then pummels them with a total of 20 hits to their vital areas in one breath!

That is attacks at lightspeed.


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## Darklyre (Apr 22, 2007)

So wait, people can take breaths at lightspeed now?


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

20 hits in one breath is not Light Speed.  Sanji can kick someone 12 times in a second and he's not even close to light speed.


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## Phenomenol (Apr 22, 2007)

You need to think!!! Tien hits your vitals 20 times in a breath which means SIMOUTANEOUSLEY, all at the SAME time, in an instant!!!


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## ~Shin~ (Apr 22, 2007)

Darklyre said:


> So wait, people can take breaths at lightspeed now?



Can't Flash do everything in lightspeed?


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

I am thinking and if he could move over a 100 thousand miles a second he should be able to hit more than 20 times in a breath.


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## Phenomenol (Apr 22, 2007)

Darklyre said:
			
		

> So wait, people can take breaths at lightspeed now?



No, it means that all of Tien's attacks just now are SIMOULTANEOUS, an instant!!!!!! You get hit at the same time which is lightspeed.


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## Darklyre (Apr 22, 2007)

Phenomenol said:


> You need to think!!! Tien hits your vitals 20 times in a breath which means SIMOUTANEOUSLEY, all at the SAME time, in an instant!!!



What the hell is wrong with your lungs to make you breathe that fast? Try timing yourself. Taking more than 1 breath a second means you're damn near hyperventilating.


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## Phenomenol (Apr 22, 2007)

Darklyre said:


> What the hell is wrong with your lungs to make you breathe that fast? Try timing yourself. Taking more than 1 breath a second means you're damn near hyperventilating.



This is what it means when it says "in one breath!"........



> 1 a : air filled with a fragrance or odor b : a slight indication : SUGGESTION <the faintest breath of scandal>
> 2 a : the faculty of breathing <recovering his breath after the race> b : an act of breathing <fought to the last breath> c : opportunity or time to breathe : RESPITE
> 3 : a slight breeze
> 4 a : air inhaled and exhaled in breathing <bad breath> b : something (as moisture on a cold surface) produced by breath or breathing c : INHALATION
> ...


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

That says almost simultaneously and once again a character as fast as Light could do more than 20 hits in that time frame.  A lot more.


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## Phenomenol (Apr 22, 2007)

A character can throw just ONE punch at the speed of light, Tien did 20 attacks at that speed.


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

What character?  Who in DB or DBZ was stated to have light speed punches?  And hitting someone 20 times in a breath isn't light speed he would have hit him a lot more times than that.


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## Phenomenol (Apr 22, 2007)

Quit being a bias fanboy, I just showed you how that technique was all done at lightspeed and it is stated that all of those 20 hits to your vitals simultaneously is proof enough.


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

No it isn't someone that could move over 100 thousand miles in a second can hit a hell of a lot more than 20 times in an instant.


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## Phenomenol (Apr 22, 2007)

Would you let your BIAS against DBZ down for just a second and actually take in what is being done. When it says "hitting your vitals 20 times in a breath" it means that all of those punches were simultaneous, at the SAME time, INSTANTANEOUSLY!!!! That is attacks at lightspeed.


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## Havoc (Apr 22, 2007)

Actually instantaneous would be faster than light...


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## Badalight (Apr 22, 2007)

Tien's attack hits the oponent twenty times, AT the same time.

Thats like having twenty arms except he only has two.

Still think it's not fast?

Can any other anime character hit somebody tewnty times at once using two sources?

No, didn't think so =o


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## Hamaru (Apr 22, 2007)

Kuya said:


> They wouldn't be able to match his speed. Especially if he's SSJ4. Or if he turns into the Golden Monkey.



GT doesn't count.


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## Orion (Apr 22, 2007)

If anyone in dbz was lightspeed or faster they would be hitting more then 1 million times  in a ''instant'' not 20 please stfu,no one in dbz went lightspeed.


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## EvilMoogle (Apr 22, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Tien's attack hits the oponent twenty times, AT the same time.
> 
> Thats like having twenty arms except he only has two.
> 
> ...



Ranma can hit someone hundreds of times fast enough to make it look like a single punch.

Kenshin can hit his opponent nine times fast enough that they appear simultaneous, with a single sword.

Neither of which are anywhere near lightspeed.


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## Badalight (Apr 22, 2007)

Um dude,

Tien's doesn't look fast. THEY ARE.

Your just saying it's so fast it looks like they are getting hit 9 times at the same time or whatever.

They would still be like .00000000001 seconds apart at least even if they were fast.

Tien goes so fast they are at the same time =p

Two arms uhuh.

Hits him tewnty times.

Thats like you try to punch someone in the face and end up giving them 10 bruises even though you only had one arm.


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

Phenomenol said:


> Would you let your BIAS against DBZ down for just a second and actually take in what is being done. When it says "hitting your vitals 20 times in a breath" it means that all of those punches were simultaneous, at the SAME time, INSTANTANEOUSLY!!!! That is attacks at lightspeed.



Yet he can still only manage twenty hits in that amount of time.  By the way have any scans of DB or DBZ characters traveling over a hundred thousand miles in a second?

Oh and that attack would be a DB feat since it happened before Saiyan Saga and I like DB.  I think DBZ is crap compared to it, but that has nothing to do with the fact that Vegeta loses this match up since he lacks a way to win it.


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## EvilMoogle (Apr 22, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Thats like you try to punch someone in the face and end up giving them 10 bruises even though you only had one arm.



Kenshin characters do things like this all the time.  Swing a sword once and cut something into 3-4 parts.

Here's the description of the Kuzu Ryu Sen:


> *Hiten Mitsurugi-Ryū: Kuzuryūsen (Nine-headed Dragon Flash)*
> The ?Nine-headed Dragon Flash? is a formidable technique which utilizes Shinsoku (lit. God-speed) to the fullest extent; dealing nine strikes to the most fundamental targets of swordsmanship (Karatake, Kesagiri, Sakagesa, Hidari-Nagi, Migi-Nagi, Hidari-Nagi, Migi-Nagi, Sakakaze, and Tsuki), *all at the same time*. These points are the key to the technique as they make up the basis of one?s guarding stance, regardless of style or weapon. So with the Kuzu-ryūsen, attacking all nine all at once, guarding and dodging becomes virtually pointless. Unlike the multiple strike attack, Ryūsōsen, all nine strikes of the Kuzu-ryūsen carry lethal force. Only something beyond Shinsoku can counter it.



That's with one sword doing 9 hits at once.  So not quite as good as Tien but pretty close.

And nobody would make a sane argument that Kenshin's light speed.  Or even close to light speed.

Blargh, why are we even arguing about this anyway?  Both (normal) Hulk and Juggernaut have shown the ability to fight people that are light speed anyway.


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## Vynjira (Apr 22, 2007)

Badalight said:


> Tien's attack hits the oponent twenty times, AT the same time.
> 
> Thats like having twenty arms except he only has two.
> 
> Still think it's not fast?


You realize REAL people can hit someone some 18 times in a breath. Doesn't make then 99% lightspeed.

What your not understanding is that lightspeed is so vast that only 20 punches in a breath would mean you fell asleep at some point.

Phenom, go misinterpret your bible some more and then come back after you learn the difference between literal and figurative.

Also the English translation was lightspeed but another English translation WASN'T lightspeed and the Japanese didn't mean lightspeed either. As I've told you before unless Tien hit anyone 166,551,365 times WITH ONE HAND(not the two Tien were using) in under a second he's not even fucking close to lightspeed.

No "Split-Second" and No "in a Breath" hard numbers if your gonna give a variable you use the numbers that least support your claim to prove your point. Proving your point by twisting something with multiple meanings to the most advantageous angle is the quickest way to loose an argument.


> Can any other anime character hit somebody tewnty times at once using two sources?
> 
> No, didn't think so =o


Many characters can hit people a thousand times with one hand. Expand your reading if you actually think otherwise.

Seriously the way your throwing lightspeed around makes the distance from here to Mars seem like a lightyear...


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## King Bookah (Apr 22, 2007)

How on Earth did the thread get this far? A punch from the Hulk will splatter Vegeta.  It's only a matter of time until he's hit.


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## Vynjira (Apr 22, 2007)

Phenomenol said:


> You need to think!!! Tien hits your vitals 20 times in a breath which means SIMOUTANEOUSLEY, all at the SAME time, in an instant!!!


No it doesn't and no it doesn't and furthermore anyone at mach speed could easily hit someone over 170 times in one second with one hand. So your argument fails. Names of techniques aren't normally literal, stop pretending this one is.


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## King Bookah (Apr 22, 2007)

Nevermind, I now know how this thread survived that long.  WHITEBEARD *sigh*


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

Vynjira said:


> No it doesn't and no it doesn't and furthermore anyone at mach speed could easily hit someone over 170 times in one second with one hand. So your argument fails. Names of techniques aren't normally literal, stop pretending this one is.



Unless of course where to assume Yamcha transforms into a Wolf when he does Wolf Fang Fist.


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## Vynjira (Apr 22, 2007)

Random Nobody said:


> Unless of course where to assume Yamcha transforms into a Wolf when he does Wolf Fang Fist.


Phenom said he does but only for a split second.


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## Badalight (Apr 22, 2007)

Vynjira said:


> You realize REAL people can hit someone some 18 times in a breath. Doesn't make then 99% lightspeed.
> 
> What your not understanding is that lightspeed is so vast that only 20 punches in a breath would mean you fell asleep at some point.
> 
> ...



Excuse me... When did I ever say DBZ characters could go Light Speed? o-o


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

Vynjira said:


> Phenom said he does but only for a split second.



 Your fucking kidding me right?



Badalight said:


> Excuse me... When did I ever say DBZ characters could go Light Speed? o-o



You didn't, Phenomenol did.


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## Badalight (Apr 22, 2007)

Alright, but he quoted me and said I did.


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## Random Nobody (Apr 22, 2007)

Probably thought you where backing up Phenomenol's argument.


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## Badalight (Apr 22, 2007)

My bad. I shouldn't have assumed.


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## Envy (Apr 22, 2007)

why was this thread resurrected?


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## Phenomenol (Apr 23, 2007)

Random Nobody said:


> *Yet he can still only manage twenty hits in that amount of time. * By the way have any scans of DB or DBZ characters traveling over a hundred thousand miles in a second?.



Yeah Your right, managing 20 hits INSTANTANEUOSLY is slow!!!! 



			
				Vynjira said:
			
		

> No it doesn't and no it doesn't and furthermore *anyone at mach speed could easily hit someone over 170 times in one second *with one hand. So your argument fails. Names of techniques aren't normally literal, stop pretending this one is.



Your a moron, Tien hit his opponent's vitals 20 times simultaneously, at the SAME time, INSTANTANEOUSLY!!!!  Not in a second. Crappy #$% Jackie Chun and Kurrin did a feat in less than a second. 



			
				gaara d. lucci said:
			
		

> Nevermind, I now know how this thread survived that long. WHITEBEARD *sigh*



You wanna talk to WHITEBEARD, PM him he is ALWAYS online. Or I will PM him and tell him to post in this thread.

ALL OF YOU FAIL!!!!!!!


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## Havoc (Apr 23, 2007)

I don't fail.  DO I?!


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## Phenomenol (Apr 23, 2007)

Heck no, I took your Sig catch predator!!! You Win havoc.


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## Vynjira (Apr 23, 2007)

Phenomenol said:


> Your a moron,


Coming from the person that doesn't understand the English language...





> Tien hit his opponent's vitals 20 times simultaneously,


Which means literally "two attacks for which the right-of-way is too close to determine." or that the Human eye is incapable of determining the order of events.





> at the SAME time,


to the human eye, it does not literally mean his hands are occupying the same space and are overlapping eachother 20 times. So no it isn't INSTANTANEOUSLY!!!! 





> Not in a second.





> Crappy #$% Jackie Chun and Kurrin did a feat in less than a second.


Yea which takes less than the speed of sound to do. Just because lightspeed could do it too doesn't mean their lightspeed.

*Rekka Kōsoku-ken*: *Rapid Velocity Technique*: 
Tenshinhan moves his arms *faster than can be seen*(Which can be done at subsonic speeds.), creating a vacuum that sucks his opponent in and then *pummels them with a total of 20 hits to their vital areas in one breath.*(At or almost at the same time.)

In other words you've failed yet again.

Here's why, if its the same time as in instant not only are his two arms occupying the same space at the same time but this contradicts the name and definition of the technique.

In other words the Name and Definition, the Claim and the Premise itself are all wrong. 3 parts wrong all because you want to use the literal functions of each.

Or you take it how it was meant and matter isn't occupying the same space at the same time, the technique is still invisible and it doesn't contradict the definition in any way.

Which means the Name and Definition, the Claim and the Premise are all right because its not taking the Name and Definition in an unrealistic context.

Basically you cannot be right no matter how you work the words, they will contradict eachother in the contexts your attempting to use them. Example of your argument: *13 + X/10 = 5* where X is 37. Wrong.

In direct comparison to the context is meant to be taken which do not contradict eachother which means our answer is correct.

Example of our Argument: *13 + X/10 = 16.7* where X is 37. Right.

In math class you can't fill a variable in as whatever number you feel like nor can you do so in a debate. You reverse the equation to figure out what the variable is. If you CANNOT determine what the variable is then you leave it as the variable.


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## Comic Book Guy (Apr 23, 2007)

Like the Vegito vs. Vegito thread prior.


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