# Whitebeard vs Marco



## Kings Disposition (Jan 3, 2014)

Whitebeard wins but with how much difficulty?


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## Slenderman (Jan 3, 2014)

WB mid diff I guess.


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## Enel (Jan 3, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> WB mid diff I guess.


I guess WB mid-diffs Kizaru then 

On a serious note: WB high-diff.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 3, 2014)

_Maybe mid difficulty. WB has unrivaled damage output and can also take hell of a beating so i don't see Marco outlasting him. Marco would need to use his high mobility to avoid getting pummeled to the ground, if at any point in time WB gets a free opening the way he did with Akainu things are not looking at all good for the blue Phoenix. That's mostly the deal with Whitebeard, even in old age he can make relatively quick work of Admiral level opponents if he gets good enough of an opening to start his assault._


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jan 3, 2014)

If this is old WB, then Whitebeard *extreme *difficulty. None of these options are correct. Or do you think Whitebeard can mid diff an admiral


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## Goomoonryong (Jan 3, 2014)

WB wins around high diff, Marco was tanking some of the admirals most powerful attacks throughout the entire war, and his regen didn't even seem close to reaching its limit. And not to mention Marco's agility and maneuverability will also cause problems. WB is not winning this without exerting a good amount of effort on his part, he's not going to be close to dying by any means but he'll be very tired.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 3, 2014)

Around mid, maybe mid high, Whitebeard's DF will wear down Marco's regen faster than the Admirals ever could.


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## Magician (Jan 3, 2014)

Whitebeard mid diff...


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 3, 2014)

Goomoonryong said:


> WB wins around high diff, Marco was tanking some of the admirals most powerful attacks throughout the entire war, and his regen didn't even seem close to reaching its limit. And not to mention Marco's agility and maneuverability will also cause problems. WB is not winning this without exerting a good amount of effort on his part, he's not going to be close to dying by any means but he'll be very tired.



_I do mostly agree with this. Seeing just three options and the "extremely tough battle" description for the "high difficulty" i raised my expectations for it. Basically a scenario where Marco has a chance to win even if he is the underdog, and i don't think such a scenario exists for this match-up unless you go to great extents to play the "sick" card for WB._


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## Kings Disposition (Jan 3, 2014)

Keep in mind that this is a guy who's capable of fighting on par with Top Tiers, can fly at high speeds + outmaneuver most of Whitebeards quakes, was able to come out unscathed from an attack that's able to implode Whitebeards insides + tear off half his face as well as a ridiculous amount of exploding light bullets (indicating that *a ton of firepower and effort* is going to be needed to bring this guy down), was spoken in the same breath as the other Yonko's by the Gorosei, and is WB's First Mate.


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## barreltheif (Jan 3, 2014)

WB mid diff.


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## tanman (Jan 3, 2014)

Whitebeard, high difficulty.
He has serious trouble trying to put down someone like Marco. "Extremely tough" isn't the phrase I would use, though. Whitebeard won't be too injured, but he'll be terribly exhausted.


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## Gervin (Jan 3, 2014)

Eh, higher end of mid diff to lower end of high diff, based on your definitions of difficulty.  Marco was mainly regenerating from attacks that targeted only a portion of his body, I'm sure it will be much more difficult regenerating from a full-on quake that will likely encompass his entire body + his head.


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## 2Broken (Jan 3, 2014)

Cool you actually made the thread lol.

Whitebeard mid-diff. The man was able to man handle a VA Giant with one hand, he could casually create Tsunami's and break an island with a punch and he suffered 267 sword wounds, 152 gunshot wounds, 46 wounds from cannonballs, got half of his face blasted off and still died standing. Marco simply cannot compete.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 3, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Cool you actually made the thread lol.
> 
> Whitebeard mid-diff. The man was able to man handle a VA Giant with one hand, he could casually create Tsunami's and break an island with a punch and he suffered 267 sword wounds, 152 gunshot wounds, 46 wounds from cannonballs, got half of his face blasted off and still died standing. Marco simply cannot compete.



_In terms of defense he can certainly compete because he took stronger attacks than that and kept on going. Overall though yes, no character that we got to see in action can actually compete with Whitebeard._


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jan 3, 2014)

mid dif though only because Marco can regenerate from damage. WB really shouldnt need to go all out to sit him down.


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## 2Broken (Jan 3, 2014)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _In terms of defense he can certainly compete because he took stronger attacks than that and kept on going. Overall though yes, no character that we got to see in action can actually compete with Whitebeard._



Marco can compete in defense because he can regen, but looking at Whitebeard raw strength, power and damage soak, due you think he will be significantly injured by the the time he finishes Marco? And how many island splitting punches do you think Marco can take if Garp's casual punch could give him a bloody lip?


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## Kings Disposition (Jan 3, 2014)

Gervin said:


> Eh, higher end of mid diff to lower end of high diff, based on your definitions of difficulty.  Marco was mainly regenerating from attacks that targeted only a portion of his body, I'm sure it will be much more difficult regenerating from a full-on quake that will likely encompass his entire body + his head.



An attack of  caliber repeatedly hit every inch of Marco's body and he came out completely unscathed by it.


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## trance (Jan 3, 2014)

Whitebeard mid/mid-high difficulty. Marco isn't _terribly_ far away from his captain and can definitely put up a good fight. His regeneration and speed will do him good in surviving more than just a few attacks.


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## Slenderman (Jan 3, 2014)

Enel said:


> I guess WB mid-diffs Kizaru then
> 
> On a serious note: WB high-diff.



I don't put Marco on admiral level. :ignoramus


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 3, 2014)

2Broken said:


> *Marco can compete in defense because he can regen*, but looking at Whitebeard raw strength, power and damage soak, due you think he will be significantly injured by the the time he finishes Marco? And how many island splitting punches do you think Marco can take if Garp's casual punch could give him a bloody lip?



_That's like saying "WB only has strong attacks because of his DF". Yes, it doesn't matter the source as it matters the effect even at such a level. WB with his DF is an offensive monster and Marco with his DF has probably the best defense in the OP world. Regardless though i agree that overall WB is to strong for anyone including Marco and given the nature of the match-up Whitebeard will be more so fatigued than seriously damaged by the time he manages to put Marco down for good._


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## 2Broken (Jan 3, 2014)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _That's like saying "WB only has strong attacks because of his DF". Yes, it doesn't matter the source as it matters the effect even at such a level. WB with his DF is an offensive monster and Marco with his DF has probably the best defense in the OP world. Regardless though i agree that overall WB is to strong for anyone including Marco and given the nature of the match-up Whitebeard will be more so fatigued than seriously damaged by the time he manages to put Marco down for good._



It is important to note that Whitebeard is physically stronger than Marco and has shown great skill using his bisento. What I am saying is that in CQC  Whitebeard is superior to Marco. Add in island splitting punches and his absolutely insane damage soak and Marco gets destroyed.


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## trance (Jan 3, 2014)

2Broken said:


> *It is important to note that Whitebeard is physically stronger than Marco and has shown great skill using his bisento. What I am saying is that in CQC  Whitebeard is superior to Marco.* Add in island splitting punches and his absolutely insane damage soak and Marco gets destroyed.



Whitebeard is also physically superior to Sakazuki but had his two-handed, Gura-powered bisento stopped with one foot by the Admiral.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 3, 2014)

2Broken said:


> I*t is important to note that Whitebeard is physically stronger than Marco* and has shown great skill using his bisento. What I am saying is that in CQC  Whitebeard is superior to Marco. Add in island splitting punches and his absolutely insane damage soak and Marco gets destroyed.



_That's probably also the case for Jozu, and Jozu might as well be physically stronger than WB i'm not sure how their feats stack. In the end though physical strength alone is not everything in a fight and does not guarantee ones superiority in CQC. In terms of mobility/reaction time/speed for example Marco has the better feats out of any WB pirates for as much as i can remember._


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 3, 2014)

Mid Difficulty, Marco does not have the power to put down WB nor have the ability to keep up with his quakes .


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## 2Broken (Jan 3, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Whitebeard is also physically superior to Sakazuki but had his two-handed, Gura-powered bisento stopped with one foot by the Admiral.



Okay now if we take both of their devil fruits away and let Whitebeard and Sakazuki have brawl who would win?

See my point now?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 3, 2014)

I don't think I need to prove that Marco can't put WB down and will be extremely hard to tag him(Assuming it's a Whitebeard that is like every other fighter in the world, aka worried about his health, of course). 



No one Admiral or not, Old WB or not has shown the durability to keep up with 1.2 teratons(People actually argue if Roger/Prime WB could take that shot) so damaging Marco is easy, he'll just have a little skimish because Marco is a little hard to tag and has all of his stats damn near Admiral level .


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## Lance (Jan 3, 2014)

It will be a tough fight simply because freakin' Marco's regeneration.


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## Kings Disposition (Jan 3, 2014)

2Broken said:


> It is important to note that Whitebeard is physically stronger than Marco and has shown great skill using his bisento. What I am saying is that in CQC  Whitebeard is superior to Marco. Add in island splitting punches and his absolutely insane damage soak and Marco gets destroyed.


From what Marco has shown with the other Admirals, he isn't far below Whitebeard in terms of strength.

Considering Marco's flight capabilities, Whitebeard is going to have a hard enough time as it is just trying to hit with Quakes. The chances of Whitebeard hitting with his shorter ranged bisento is even lower. 

And you seem to be forgetting that Marco's insane damage soak is most likely better than Whitebeards.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 3, 2014)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> That's like saying "WB only has strong attacks because of his DF".



The difference is that in WB's case and in the case of most of the other top tiers with DF's, the DF relationships have generally been shown more to supplement someones own power rather than be the main focus. 

Look. Marco's obviously honed his DF power through his years of using it and can do some neat, cool stuff with it as a result (I'm thinking some of the partial transformations) but the core, essence of his fruit is regeneration and survival - it's what his fruit is centered on. Put it this way, if you gave a low tier fighter WB's fruit they couldn't come close to causing the scale of damage he was able to cause whereas if you give them Marco's fruit, whilst they'll struggle with the control of it, they'll still be more than capable of displaying the same propensity to regenerate from what would normally be fatal attacks. All they have to do is stay transformed in the zoan form - the most elementary move for any zoan user. 

It's for this reason that Marco's supposed "tanking" feats understandably seem far less impressive and don't get the same level of respect when compared to the feats seen so far from the Yonkou/Admirals/Mihawk. He didn't really display anything else either to warrant him any other praise ... his attack moves were very poor (wasn't able to injure anyone at MF) and his overall leadership & decision making was shoddy. 




Kings Disposition said:


> An attack of  caliber repeatedly hit every inch of Marco's body and he came out completely unscathed by it.



No, it wasn't unscathed. The saying, _"there's no such thing as a free lunch"_ is juat as applicable in the OPworld. Marco was able to negate the physical damage from that attack through his DF power, but in doing that it took a chunk out of his stamina on top of pushing him towards his regenartion limit. 





OT - It'll be a medium difficulty win for Whitebeard just as it would be for any Admiral vs Marco.

I just don't think any fight where the level of danger, threat and risk of injury to one party is very minimal can be classified as high difficulty. I honestly doubt Whitebeard would even receive a scratch after the encounter, let alone any permenent scars. 

You could see this visibly during the war. Whenever Whitebeard made a move in the plaza, an Admiral quickly went to try and stop him as they knew letting him run wild would be disastorous. However apart from when he got very close towards Ace, no one really decided to devote any time to him as they knew he couldn't do anything. Borsalino fired a couple of quick lasers but then couldn't even be bothered to finish him of when his head was on a plate. A telling sign if I ever saw one. 

There's no question that WB will have to work for it and can't take it easy as with Marco's DF power just one attack won't be enough. I'm thinking Marco comes in close to attack (he's got no long ranged attacks), Whitebeard grabs him with one hand, pins him against the floor and just repeatedly quake punches him until his regeneration wears out or his stamina fails.


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## 2Broken (Jan 3, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> From what Marco has shown with the other Admirals, he isn't far below Whitebeard in terms of strength.
> 
> Considering Marco's flight capabilities, Whitebeard is going to have a hard enough time as it is just trying to hit with Quakes. The chances of Whitebeard hitting with his shorter ranged bisento is even lower.
> 
> And you seem to be forgetting that Marco's insane damage soak is most likely better than Whitebeards.



The thing is Marco has to get close to do anything to Whitebeard not the other way around and up close is last place he would want to be in a fight with the old man. He can't come close to dishing out the damage Whitebeard has proven he can take and in CQC Marco isn't going to last long.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 3, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> The difference is that in WB's case and in the case of most of the other top tiers with DF's, the DF relationships have generally been shown more to supplement someones own power rather than be the main focus.
> 
> Look. Marco's obviously honed his DF power through his years of using it and can do some neat, cool stuff with it as a result (I'm thinking some of the partial transformations) but the core, essence of his fruit is regeneration and survival - it's what his fruit is centered on. Put it this way, if you gave a low tier fighter WB's fruit they couldn't come close to causing the scale of damage he was able to cause whereas if you give them Marco's fruit, whilst they'll struggle with the control of it, they'll still be more than capable of displaying the same propensity to regenerate from what would normally be fatal attacks. All they have to do is stay transformed in the zoan form - the most elementary move for any zoan user.
> 
> It's for this reason that Marco's supposed "tanking" feats understandably seem far less impressive and don't get the same level of respect when compared to the feats seen so far from the Yonkou/Admirals/Mihawk. He didn't really display anything else either to warrant him any other praise ... his attack moves were very poor (wasn't able to injure anyone at MF) and his overall leadership & decision making was shoddy.



_Are you sure that the extent, speed and limit of ones regeneration would be the same for anyone using Marcos DF  and has nothing to do with DF mastery ? _


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 3, 2014)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Are you sure that the extent, speed and limit of ones regeneration would be the same for anyone using Marcos DF  and has nothing to do with DF mastery ? _



Remember the fruit is a Zoan fruit, not a regeneartion parmecia. It works because it's based on a phoenix who have always been portrayed in mythology as having the capablity to regenerate/be reborn .... it's an inherent mythological quality of them, one that they don't need to _train_ for. So, yes I feel my point still stands in that regard - a low tier with his fruit would still have the same propensity to regenerate from fatal attacks the same way Marco did during the war. 

However I'll admit that the limit most likely is related to that, though I don't think I suggested the opposite in my post, as that should be linked to stamina for a which a fighter like Marco obviously should have superior stats to than an average scrub in the OPworld.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 3, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Remember the fruit is a Zoan fruit, not a regeneartion parmecia. It works because it's based on a phoenix who have always been portrayed in mythology as having the capablity to regenerate/be reborn .... it's an inherent mythological quality of them, one that they don't need to _train_ for. So, yes I feel my point still stands in that regard - a low tier with his fruit would still have the same propensity to regenerate from fatal attacks the same way Marco did during the war.
> 
> However I'll admit that the limit most likely is related to that, though I don't think I suggested the opposite in my post, as that should be linked to stamina for a which a fighter like Marco obviously should have superior stats to than an average scrub in the OPworld.



_I would not argue against the fruit having regeneration properties for any DF user, that would probably be the case. I do think though that both Marco's regeneration speed to the point he can regenerate his body about as fast as it's getting melted by Akainu's magma in order to hold the clash, his ability to engage in combat efficiently while parts of his body are going through the regeneration process, and his absurdly high limit considering the attacks he took are the result of his DF mastery and not simply a given. I could see a beginner easily getting overwhelmed while struggling to reform at a much slower pace, unable to even properly move in those conditions let alone fly and fight at full speed with broken wings and large pieces of his body missing, and obviously reaching a much lower cap way sooner than Marco reaches his, point that you already agreed with._


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## trance (Jan 3, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Okay now if we take both of their devil fruits away and let Whitebeard and Sakazuki have brawl who would win?
> 
> See my point now?



But you didn't see my point. Whitebeard may be physical stronger but not vastly so. Sakazuki still held his own against Whitebeard and I'm pretty sure Marco can hold his own at least for a short time.


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## barreltheif (Jan 4, 2014)

Obviously Marco can hold his own against WB for a short time, mainly because of his regen, but also partially because of his mobility. However, WB took way more damage at MF than Marco will be able to dish out. You can hardly count the fight as high diff if Marco has no chance of inflicting any real injuries to WB. It's a mid diff fight.


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## Kings Disposition (Jan 4, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> No, it wasn't unscathed. The saying, _"there's no such thing as a free lunch"_ is juat as applicable in the OPworld. Marco was able to negate the physical damage from that attack through his DF power, but in doing that it took a chunk out of his stamina on top of pushing him towards his regenartion limit.
> 
> OT - It'll be a medium difficulty win for Whitebeard just as it would be for any Admiral vs Marco.
> 
> ...


First, I?m aware that Oda implied that there's a limit to his regeneration but we have no idea what it is exactly yet. 

We don?t know if his regeneration drastically drains his stamina. We don?t know if his regeneration works as a secondary resource and every time he takes damage, that resource gets depleted. We don?t if there's a ridiculously high threshold of damage that needs to be reached in a short time frame (or else the threshold goes back down if not constantly kept up) for his regen powers to start diminishing. 

We have no idea what it is yet and until it then, we can?t start making claims that the Phoenix DF is incredibly taxing on his stamina and use that as concrete evidence against Marco.

Secondly, why do you assume that someone who's able to fight on par with Admirals, is so physically inferior to Whitebeard that he's unable to cause him any damage and will easily be pinned down by him? Literally every time Marco was involved with an Admiral, they either: failed to harm him in anyway, got stopped dead in their tracks, or got sent flying with a single kick. 



2Broken said:


> The thing is Marco has to get close to do anything to Whitebeard not the other way around and up close is last place he would want to be in a fight with the old man. He can't come close to dishing out the damage Whitebeard has proven he can take and in CQC Marco isn't going to last long.


Won't last long? Have you seen this guys fruit? Here's a likely scenario between the two: 

Marco flies in close to Whitebeard. Whitebeard tries to slash him, misses, and Marco throws an extremely hard kick at his face. Whitebeard strikes back with a quake punch but Marco dodges it by quickly flying behind him. Whitebeard turns around and throws another quake punch. Marco dodges again by going out of his line of sight while moving in close. Once Macro reaches him again and gets in close range, he gets hit by a quake punch, recovers instantly, and proceeds to land a few more kicks on Whitebeard like nothing happened. Whitebeard quickly counters back with a focused bubble quake, Marco gets hit and recovers once more, kicks him again and flies away once another quake approaches. Rinse and repeat. 

Whitebeard just took a crapton of damage and Marco's still in perfect health, ready to continue another assault. Sure Whitebeard can take plenty more kicks but he's definitely got his work cut out for him here. He needs to go all out to capitalize on every opening as much as possible and anything less on an opponent that so ridiculously hard to take down puts him serious jeopardy.


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## Lmao (Jan 4, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Whitebeard is also physically superior to Sakazuki but had his two-handed, Gura-powered bisento stopped with one foot by the Admiral.


That's because he was doing fodder sweep, I have no doubt in my mind Sakazuki would've been unable to stop it the same way if Whitebeard was actually aiming for him.


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## barreltheif (Jan 4, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Here's a likely scenario between the two:
> 
> Marco flies in close to Whitebeard. Whitebeard tries to slash him, misses, and Marco throws an extremely hard kick at his face. Whitebeard strikes back with a quake punch but Marco dodges it by quickly flying behind him. Whitebeard turns around and throws another quake punch. Marco dodges again by going out of his line of sight while moving in close. Once Macro reaches him again and gets in close range, he gets hit by a quake punch, recovers instantly, and proceeds to land a few more kicks on Whitebeard like nothing happened. Whitebeard quickly counters back with a focused bubble quake, Marco gets hit and recovers once more, kicks him again and flies away once another quake approaches. Rinse and repeat.
> 
> Whitebeard just took a crapton of damage and Marco's still in perfect health, ready to continue another assault.




LMAO
It's hilarious that anyone would actually believe this fanfic.


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## November (Jan 4, 2014)

Gurarararara 
Mid diff


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## RF (Jan 4, 2014)

Whitebeard mid difficulty.


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## RF (Jan 4, 2014)

Marco is admiral level btw.


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## 2Broken (Jan 4, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Won't last long? Have you seen this guys fruit? Here's a likely scenario between the two:
> 
> Marco flies in close to Whitebeard. Whitebeard tries to slash him, misses, and Marco throws an extremely hard kick at his face. Whitebeard strikes back with a quake punch but Marco dodges it by quickly flying behind him. Whitebeard turns around and throws another quake punch. Marco dodges again by going out of his line of sight while moving in close. Once Macro reaches him again and gets in close range, he gets hit by a quake punch, recovers instantly, and proceeds to land a few more kicks on Whitebeard like nothing happened. Whitebeard quickly counters back with a focused bubble quake, Marco gets hit and recovers once more, kicks him again and flies away once another quake approaches. Rinse and repeat.
> 
> Whitebeard just took a crapton of damage and Marco's still in perfect health, ready to continue another assault. Sure Whitebeard can take plenty more kicks but he's definitely got his work cut out for him here. He needs to go all out to capitalize on every opening as much as possible and anything less on an opponent that so ridiculously hard to take down puts him serious jeopardy.



....Did you....even if....you can't possibly....

I really don't even know how to respond to this, just WOW....


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## RF (Jan 4, 2014)

lol            .


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## tanman (Jan 4, 2014)

I would say 
Old Whitebeard v. Akainu (high diff)
Old Whitebeard v. Aokiji (high diff)
Old Whitebeard v. Kizaru (low end of high diff)
Old Whitebeard v. Marco (low end of high diff)

It's hard for me to say mid diff when Whitebeard in his old age would be on the verge of dying after a fight from any of these people.


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## Kings Disposition (Jan 4, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> LMAO
> It's hilarious that anyone would actually believe this fanfic.





2Broken said:


> ....Did you....even if....you can't possibly....
> 
> I really don't even know how to respond to this, just WOW....



Is this a joke? Both of you are acting like I said Marco beats Whitebeard. 

Why don't you explain how any of what I said is entirely impossible? Are you honestly suggesting that Marco can't dodge WB's quakes and bisento when he's capable of flying at high speeds? Or that Marco can't take a quake punch when he's shown to be completely unharmed from an attack that tore off Whitebeard's face? Or that Marco is some fruit cake who's incapable of doing any kind of damage to Whitebeard whatsoever when he's shown to break through an Admirals guard and send said Admiral flying? Come on now....


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## Lmao (Jan 4, 2014)

You described a scenario in which Marco approaches Whitebeard,  does a crapton of damage while taking and avoiding quakes and emerges perfectly healthy. That's fanfiction.

As for this:



Kings Disposition said:


> when he's shown to be completely unharmed from an attack that tore off Whitebeard's face?


Yeah no. Meigo >>> generic magma punch aimed for comatose Luffy.


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## Vengeance (Jan 4, 2014)

Whitebeard mid difficulty.


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## Kings Disposition (Jan 4, 2014)

Lmao said:


> You described a scenario in which Marco approaches Whitebeard,  does a crapton of damage while taking and avoiding quakes and emerges perfectly healthy. That's fanfiction.


No. I described a scenario that can actually happen based on whats been shown in the manga. And I never implied that Marco can dodge every single quake punch. 

I might've over exaggerated on that crap ton of damage part but I was only  trying to stress the point that Marco is in fact capable of dealing damage to Whitebeard and his feats support this. 



Lmao said:


> Yeah no. Meigo >>> generic magma punch aimed for comatose Luffy.


You mean the same "generic magma punch" that  Whitebeard's chest and left behind a gaping hole? Way to try and underplay a devastating move like that one.


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## Lmao (Jan 4, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> No. I described a scenario that can actually happen based on whats been shown in the manga.


There's absolutely nothing like that in the manga, what actually happened is Marco, with aerial advantage, attacking Kizaru and having his kick cockblocked.



Kings Disposition said:


> You mean the same "generic magma punch" that  Whitebeard's chest and left behind a gaping hole? Way to try and underplay a devastating move like that one.


You bring up yet another example of Akainu attacking the strongest man in the world comparing it to Akainu attacking comatose Luffy to prove what exactly? That Marco (and by extension Jinbe) blocked that same level of offence? Yeah no.


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## Urouge (Jan 4, 2014)

tanman said:


> I would say
> Old Whitebeard v. Akainu (high diff)
> Old Whitebeard v. Aokiji (high diff)
> Old Whitebeard v. Kizaru (low end of high diff)
> ...



Sigh more kizaru underestimation


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## RF (Jan 4, 2014)

lolkenji, Marco and Kizaru are equal. Just accept it already.


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## Urouge (Jan 4, 2014)

Lolrg you change your mind every two second so I can't take you seriously anymore. Having 2 quick skirmishes means that they're equal now? Guess vista is equal to mihawk


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## RF (Jan 4, 2014)

Mihawk is equal to Shanks, so he's a lot stronger than Vista even if they did clash seemingly equally.

Marco is Whitebeard's right hand man, spoken of in the same breath as the Emperors, there's no reason to assume he's inferior to an admiral in power. Marco and Kizaru clashed evenly, their fight wasn't concluded without the intervention of an outside party. Prove Kizaru is stronger.


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## Urouge (Jan 4, 2014)

You really want to use that shit excuse? Because I can do the same. The coloured trio are on the same level as the younkou and marco is a fm so admirals > fm  you went from kizaru high diff to extreme diff and now to =. Like I sad a while ago it won't be long before you say that he's stronger. Also well done using the gorosei words to wank marco alone when you know clearly that they were talking about the WB pirate crew as a whole. Marco on his own woukd get raped hard by the bb pirates.


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## RF (Jan 4, 2014)

Calm down man, I'm just rustling you.  Kizaru beats Marco most of the time, so do Akainu and Aokiji. 

But your reasoning is pretty nonsensical. There is *nothing* to suggest that every single pre-timeskip admiral equals a Yonko. No evidence whatsoever. 

And Marco was spoken of seperately from the rest of the Whitebeard pirates, you know what I meant. The Yonko and Marco, + their respective crews could stop Blackbeard's advance.


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## Urouge (Jan 4, 2014)

Damn thought you were gonna turn into z for a second  sorry about that

Still think that marco wouldn't have been put there if he wasn't the head of younkou crew. He's in the same ballpark as the admirals and younkou but he's weaker than them IMO.

Edit: except the new admirals. I put slightly under him or equal to him until they show the same level of power the preskip admiral showed


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## Lawliet (Jan 4, 2014)

Kizaru and the admirals don't beat Marco most of the time . They beat him every single time.


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## RF (Jan 4, 2014)

You've definitely convinced me with your abundance of proof.


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## 2Broken (Jan 4, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Kizaru and the admirals don't beat Marco most of the time . They beat him every single time.



Word.


----------



## Lawliet (Jan 4, 2014)

Truth hurts, I know.


----------



## RF (Jan 4, 2014)

So in short, you're acting like an idiot because you can't prove shit.

Good to know.


----------



## Lawliet (Jan 4, 2014)

If that's how you wanna look at it, sure. But gl proving that Marco wins a single match


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 4, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> First, I?m aware that Oda implied that there's a limit to his regeneration but we have no idea what it is exactly yet.
> 
> We don?t know if his regeneration drastically drains his stamina. We don?t know if his regeneration works as a secondary resource and every time he takes damage, that resource gets depleted. We don?t if there's a ridiculously high threshold of damage that needs to be reached in a short time frame (or else the threshold goes back down if not constantly kept up) for his regen powers to start diminishing.
> 
> We have no idea what it is yet and until it then, we can?t start making claims that the Phoenix DF is incredibly taxing on his stamina and use that as concrete evidence against Marco.



Come of it now. He seemed exhausted at the end of the war and it's the most logical deduction to make based on what we've seen so far about DF's. If he's able to regenerate that _easily_ he would be some immortal undefeatble god ruling over the entire world .... which he's not. There are checks and balances to his ability like most other powers in the OPworld.... Oda has already gone out his way to talk about his regeneration limit for a reason. 

A good template to look at is Law's Ope Ope No Mi. Quite a haxxed power which he's used effectively so far to defeat strong opponents but one in his words comes at cost through draining his stamina. 



Kings Disposition said:


> Secondly, why do you assume that someone who's able to fight on par with Admirals, is so physically inferior to Whitebeard that he's unable to cause him any damage and will easily be pinned down by him? Literally every time Marco was involved with an Admiral, they either: failed to harm him in anyway, got stopped dead in their tracks, or got sent flying with a single kick.



To quote a famous OL scholar, you're being _intellectually dishonest_ with those points.

Fighting on a par? He kicked two when they were focused on other matters and used his ability to cockblock an Admiral aiming for a more relevant target. That really can't be construed in any way as "fighting on a par". Not only were they incredibly brief, there was no serious engagement from the other party. 

The problem here is that your assuming that a one on one fight will yield similar situations to the war when the base conditions couldn't be more different. Context is king as usual here.

The fact that he wasn't able to injure one despite having multiple free shots at unexpected foes should be a worrying sign about his potential to injure one when they're actually anticipating him.  Anyway I don't want to turn this into an Admiral vs Marco thread again, so I'll leave it at that. 



Sakazuki said:


> lolkenji, Marco and Kizaru are equal. Just accept it already.


To the tune of the Addams family  - 

_
He attacks to the left...
He attacks to the rightttttttt.....
That Marco The Phoenix ....
His attacks are fucking shite!!!_


I'm here all week.


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## RF (Jan 4, 2014)

> The fact that he wasn't able to injure one despite having multiple free shots at unexpected foes should be a worrying sign about his potential to injure one when they're actually anticipating him.



He wasn't able to injure them because they blocked his attacks. No different from Doflamingo being able to block Diable Jambe kicks from Sanji with a feather coat; doesn't mean he wouldn't have been roughed up if he was hit in the face or the stomach. Difference here is that Marco sent the admirals flying whilst Sanji didn't even move Don from the spot. You're not going to tell me that this isn't an insane physical showing are you?

Marco is admiral level. Dude spent the entire war fighting people on that level and was succeesfully one-upping them before getting distracted in the midst of battle and tripple-teamed. Blocked everything Borsalino threw at him, sent him flying through his block, causing an explosion large enough to encompass 4 freaking battleships. Kicked Kuzan through his block and sent him crashing to a wall. Fought Borsalino in the plaza yet again and was doing well before getting distracted by Edward's heart attack, lasered twice, and getting chained to seastone by a Vice Admiral while regenerating from his wounds, getting impaled twice once again. Spent half the war paralyzed with 2 bleeding holes in his chest, and the moment he got his chains off, attacked Sakazuki, held him back while Ace was giving his dying speech, and blocked his attack on panel without a single issue.

Whitebeard's right hand man, and spoken of in the same breath as the Emperors by the Gorosei.

Believe it.


----------



## Enel (Jan 4, 2014)

Damn, I knew Marco was underrated but this thread made me realize how much


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## trance (Jan 4, 2014)

Lmao said:


> That's because he was doing fodder sweep, I have no doubt in my mind Sakazuki would've been unable to stop it the same way if Whitebeard was actually aiming for him.



But Sakazuki did so with seemingly little effort. Plus, afterwards, they were more or less on par as neither had the edge over the other. Whitebeard is stronger but the gap isn't as large as many think and the same applies to Marco as well.


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## Lord Melkor (Jan 4, 2014)

I would say lower end of high difficulty for old WB.


----------



## BashFace (Jan 4, 2014)

Marco eats shit out of WhiteBeard's shoe he's a weak ass compared to  Whitebeard.


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## Captain Altintop (Jan 4, 2014)

Goomoonryong said:


> WB wins around high diff, Marco was tanking some of the admirals most powerful attacks throughout the entire war, and his regen didn't even seem close to reaching its limit. And not to mention Marco's agility and maneuverability will also cause problems. WB is not winning this without exerting a good amount of effort on his part, he's not going to be close to dying by any means but he'll be very tired.



Good post, I would give WB high diff, too.  It should be pretty obvious that Admirals would give WB around very high diff. (FA Akainu "very high to extreme" diff.) I see the MF Admirals very high diffing Marco, too because his regen and versatile fighting type definitely matches that level where he competes with the Admirals.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 4, 2014)

Lmao said:


> *There's absolutely nothing like that in the manga*, what actually happened is Marco, with aerial advantage, attacking Kizaru and having his kick cockblocked.


Kizaru with his guard up got sent flying so hard that he exploded in gigantic dome of light (yea he really cockblocked that kick....), indicating the sheer power of said kick (which highly suggests that he can damage Whitebeard). That wasn't in the manga?

Marco, who's capable of flying at high speeds, reached Kizaru before he could transport (which highly suggests that he can dodge quakes and bisento slashes). That wasn't in the manga?

Aokiji (though caught by surprise), got launched by Marco's kick (which also suggests that he can damage Whitebeard). That wasn't in the manga?

Marco was physically strong enough to halt Akainu's advance (which also suggests that he can damage Whitebeard). That wasn't in the manga?

Marco took devastating attacks from both Kizaru + Akainu and came out unscathed (which suggests that he's capable of taking quake punches). That wasn't in the manga?



Lmao said:


> You bring up yet another example of Akainu attacking the strongest man in the world comparing it to Akainu attacking comatose Luffy to prove what exactly? That Marco (and by extension Jinbe) blocked that same level of offence? Yeah no.


Wait are you implying that the magma fist that he attacked Jinbei + Luffy with is somehow drastically weaker than the one he attacked Whitebeard with? How does that make any sense? Why would Akainu hold back on dragons son when he clearly explained that he was dead set on killing him? How can you even hold back on magma fist at all???



Admiral Kizaru said:


> Come of it now. He seemed exhausted at the end of the war and it's the most logical deduction to make based on what we've seen so far about DF's. If he's able to regenerate that _easily_ he would be some immortal undefeatble god ruling over the entire world .... which he's not. There are checks and balances to his ability like most other powers in the OPworld.... Oda has already gone out his way to talk about his regeneration limit for a reason.


I never said that he regenerates that easily and I know that his DF needs some sort of limit because you'd be right about him being some sort of  undying god. I was merely pointing out the fact that you can't make baseless claims as to what exactly those limitations are when it hasn't even been confirmed yet ( i.e. You can't say with 100% accuracy that his fruit rapidly drains stamina without concrete evidence).



Admiral Kizaru said:


> A good template to look at is Law's Ope Ope No Mi. Quite a haxxed power which he's used effectively so far to defeat strong opponents but one in his words comes at cost through draining his stamina.



Yes and we would've never known that until Law outright stated it. Prior to that confirmation, no one in the battledome would've ever said that the Ope Ope was incredibly taxing on stamina as evidence against Law (and this is essentially what you doing with Marco here).  



Admiral Kizaru said:


> To quote a famous OL scholar, you're being _intellectually dishonest_ with those points.
> 
> Fighting on a par? He kicked two when they were focused on other matters and used his ability to cockblock an Admiral aiming for a more relevant target. That really can't be construed in any way as "fighting on a par". Not only were they incredibly brief, there was no serious engagement from the other party.
> 
> The problem here is that your assuming that a one on one fight will yield similar situations to the war when the base conditions couldn't be more different. Context is king as usual here.


 I never used that one instance where he blocked Akainu's attack as the sole indicator that he's capable of fighting on par with Admirals (though it is a testament of his physical strength). In addition to that, I took into account his hype by Gorosei, his position as firstmate, and his capabilities of launching Admirals with kicks alone. All of this suggest that he's able to fight on par with Top Tiers. 

Focused on other matters? This is completely false. Kizaru was blatantly aware that Marco was approaching, put his guard up in preparation of an attack, and still got sent flying. That was a direct confrontation in every sense of the word and using the "well they were in the middle of a war" excuse doesn't even remotely apply there (and you say I'm the one being ntellectually dishonest....). 



Enel said:


> Damn, I knew Marco was underrated but this thread made me realize how much


It's absurd. There's people in this thread that are acting like Marco is only capable of tickling Whitebeard.


----------



## tanman (Jan 4, 2014)

I gag a little when I read admiral/yonkou wank.
It's incredibly pervasive. I can't tell you how much I've read stuff about all admirals being near equal. And admirals being on the same level as Yonkou. Or all Yonkous being stronger than all admirals. Or all admirals being stronger than Marco and all first mates. Some people (one person) even saying that Kizaru can mid diff Marco. Makes my head hurt.

When is a first mate going to get some god damn respect? I hate to admit it but Zoro's the only one that can do it. Zoro is the only one who is wanked heavily enough to counter all the admiral/yonkou wank and finally give first mates everywhere some love.


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## trance (Jan 4, 2014)

tanman said:


> I gag a little when I read admiral/yonkou wank.
> It's incredibly pervasive. I can't tell you how much I've read stuff about all admirals being near equal. *And admirals being on the same level as Yonkou.* Or all Yonkous being stronger than all admirals. Or all admirals being stronger than Marco and all first mates. Some people (one person) even saying that Kizaru can mid diff Marco. Makes my head hurt.
> 
> When is a first mate going to get some god damn respect? I hate to admit it but Zoro's the only one that can do it. Zoro is the only one who is wanked heavily enough to counter all the admiral/yonkou wank and finally give first mates everywhere some love.



I don't see what's so insane about this. To say they're equal is probably inaccurate but they're clearly comparable in terms of hype and portrayal (minus Whitebeard).


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## Lmao (Jan 5, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> But Sakazuki did so with seemingly little effort.


Exactly, he casually stopped an attack he shouldn't have been able to with one leg and it's unfathomable to think said leg strength is = Whitebeard's two handed Gura powered bisento. I agree about the gap.



Kings Disposition said:


> Kizaru with his guard up got sent flying so hard that he exploded in gigantic dome of light (yea he really cockblocked that kick....), indicating the sheer power of said kick (which highly suggests that he can damage Whitebeard). That wasn't in the manga?
> 
> Marco, who's capable of flying at high speeds, reached Kizaru before he could transport (which highly suggests that he can dodge quakes and bisento slashes). That wasn't in the manga?
> 
> ...


You must've missed the part I mentioned the aerial advantage. Kizaru, unlike our phoenix head friend, *doesn't* have wings to keep him airborne and/or maneuver. As for the kick, you act as if Marco's super duper leg stength is the sole reason Kizaru went flying, it isn't. From that position, any attack with decent force applied downwards would've forced Kizaru backwards as he had no means (i.e. foothold) to counterbalance the force.

....before he could transport? What is wrong with you Marco fans, always bending and twisting scenes to fit your argument? He was in the middle of attacking with Yasakani no Magatama before Marco reached him, he wasn't about to transport anywhere.. not sure where that came from. But since you mentioned speed,  when they simultaneously attacked Akainu. That was also in the manga so I guess he can do it too...

No objection here, it's a legit feat.

So did Jinbe, can he also damage Whitebeard?



Kings Disposition said:


> Wait are you implying that the magma fist that he attacked Jinbei + Luffy with is somehow drastically weaker than the one he attacked Whitebeard with?


Yes. It's like you people forget Haki compliments combat prowess, physical abilities and Devil Fruits alike, both offensively and defensively. Aokiji froze Robin/Luffy and Jozu through direct touch yet the latter's case was far worse, how can you even hold back on ice at all? By adjusting the power and intensity, which all characters and especially elemental users are capable of, Akainu is no exception.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 5, 2014)

_Wait, why would Akainu hold back when punching Luffy ? He was hell-bent on killing him, we have absolutely no reason to believe his generic magma fists aimed at Luffy or Coby for example were significantly weaker than the one aimed at Whitebeard just because the targets were obviously weaker themselves. The portrayal Marco and Shanks got from this two examples of fending off his attack keeps it's value._


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## Lawliet (Jan 5, 2014)

^ That's a question I've been asking forever. No one has given me a reasonable answer yet.


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## RF (Jan 5, 2014)

^ It's tradition in this section to find a way to downplay a feat if you don't like it.


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## Lmao (Jan 5, 2014)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> Wait, why would Akainu hold back when punching Luffy ?


He wasn't holding back, he went for the kill and nobody is arguing otherwise. Luffy couldn't even move much less defend himself yet Akainu used the same punches he was attacking the strongest man in the world, how does that make a shred of sense? There's not a single legit reasoning for this, all I keep seeing is 'he wanted to kill Luffy so bad' when that's hardly relevant and 'magma is magma' which is laughable to say the least.

We saw a long time ago you can go for the kill while using the appropriate effort to do so:



Swap Robin with Luffy, Zoro with Marco/Jinbe, Kuzan with Akainu and you have a nigh identical example of the Marineford scene.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 5, 2014)

tanman said:


> I gag a little when I read admiral/yonkou wank.
> It's incredibly pervasive. I can't tell you how much I've read stuff about all admirals being near equal. And admirals being on the same level as Yonkou. Or all Yonkous being stronger than all admirals. Or all admirals being stronger than Marco and all first mates. Some people (one person) even saying that Kizaru can mid diff Marco. Makes my head hurt.
> 
> When is a first mate going to get some god damn respect? I hate to admit it but Zoro's the only one that can do it. Zoro is the only one who is wanked heavily enough to counter all the admiral/yonkou wank and finally give first mates everywhere some love.



Oh I know I'm certainly not the only who believes this. Judging by how the consensus is forming on this particular topic as well, which whilst not a Kizaru vs Marco thread has had some very good evaluations of Marco's ablities, I wouldn't be surprised if a growing number of people side towards my view. Especially now that the immediate hype and wank surronding the war has died down and people can approach these topics more objectively. 


P.S. - Rayleigh deservingly gets a fantastic amount of respect on here. Display a decent amount of competence and skill that's reflective of your position and you'll gain respect regardless of who you are. 



oOLawlietOo said:


> ^ That's a question I've been asking forever. No one has given me a reasonable answer yet.



Because in a situation like that it's ridicolous to assume that an intelligent top tier fighter like Sakazuki would be stupid enough to put 100% in everything and go all out with every single punch/attack he makes. Not only would that be completely redundant, it'll just waste his energy resources unnecessarily; something he'd be well aware of and something he'd know would be foolish to do in a war scenario.

Now the opposing argument being put forward by the Marco defenders, is that it's stupid for Sakazuki to calibrate every single attack he makes before hand, determining the appropriate amount of power to apply. Yes, that's also unlikely but why is that the only alternative?

Most likely what happens is that he has several settings he operates on, that vary depending on the situation and opponent he faces.

Easy - When he's facing absolute filth/fodder (relative to him) / Luffy, Curiel, rest of the WB pirates sans Marco, Jozu and Vista
Medium - ?
Hard (all out) - When he clashed with Whitebeard (at the plaza + Meigo incident)

This is likely the case for most of the top fighters as well. See LMAO's Kuzan example above.


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## Lawliet (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm not defending Marco or anything, I just wanna know why wouldn't akainu put a serious punch against luffy. It lift not be his strongest punch ever, but no one uses their strongest attacks just like that. 

Akainu made it clear that he wants luffy dead. He chased him over and over during MF, went through the trouble of facing an angry WB, the commanders just to kill him. When he finds him in front of his eyes, he uses a weak ass punch to kill him ? Does not make sense AT ALL. Another punch performed by akainu in order to kill luffy pierced through jinbei who is very durable himself and it went through luffy too, that my friend is not a weak punch, that is one of the strongest punches I've seen in the series whether magma had a hand into it or not . 

If you were to chase a fly around your place, and finally had the chance to kill it, would you slap it with your shoe lightly ? Or would you put your strength into it to make sure that damn fly is dead ?


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## RF (Jan 5, 2014)

I'd say it was an average punch, comparable to the one that killed Ace and the one that was blocked by Jimbe. Point is, it definitely wasn't an "OMG AKAINU WAS USING 0.0000001% OF HIS STRENGTH LULZ" situation as some people are making it out to be.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 5, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I'm not defending Marco or anything, I just wanna know why wouldn't akainu put a serious punch against luffy. It lift not be his strongest punch ever, but no one uses their strongest attacks just like that.
> 
> Akainu made it clear that he wants luffy dead. He chased him over and over during MF, went through the trouble of facing an angry WB, the commanders just to kill him. When he finds him in front of his eyes, he uses a weak ass punch to kill him ? Does not make sense AT ALL.
> 
> If you were to chase a fly around your place, and finally had the chance to kill it, would you slap it with your shoe lightly ? Or would you put your strength into it to make sure that damn fly is dead ?



Relax, it wasn't meant as an insult of any kind. Though I like the fact you're quite vociferous in denying that you're a Marco fan. 

I suppose given his deep concern about Luffy's bloodline he may have given a tad more impetus to his his attack that he would have normally done. But as an Admiral who's displayed a great deal of professionalism so far, I would argue that that Sakazuki would be professional enough to detach his emotions from his work and especially not let it influence how he fights. 

It's important to also note that prior to Marco arriving to cockblock (lol, I love this term as it describes what he does precisely) he was operating completely casually when attempting to end both Luffy and Ace's lives which suggests that he was operating at a low setting, confident that he could easily handle the situation without having to exert himself much. 

Anyway we're sort of going slightly of at a tangent now. The initial trigger for this debate was Kings Disposition trying to equate Sakazuki's attack on Whitebeard with his attack against Luffy, which in you conceeding that his attack against Luffy wouldn't be his strongest attack also should disagree with now.


----------



## Kings Disposition (Jan 5, 2014)

Lmao said:


> You must've missed the part I mentioned the aerial advantage. Kizaru, unlike our phoenix head friend, *doesn't* have wings to keep him airborne and/or maneuver. As for the kick, you act as if Marco's super duper leg stength is the sole reason Kizaru went flying, it isn't. From that position, any attack with decent force applied downwards would've forced Kizaru backwards as he had no means (i.e. foothold) to counterbalance the force.
> 
> ....before he could transport? What is wrong with you Marco fans, always bending and twisting scenes to fit your argument? He was in the middle of attacking with Yasakani no Magatama before Marco reached him, he wasn't about to transport anywhere.. not sure where that came from. But since you mentioned speed,  when they simultaneously attacked Akainu. That was also in the manga so I guess he can do it too...
> 
> ...



You must've missed the part where Kizaru had his _guard up_ and Marco completely _broke through_ it. And an aerial advantage over Kizaru isn't as big as you think. Take a look at this . Kizaru has proven to be able transport from mid air to the ground, yet didn't even have a chance to and was forced block instead since Marco reached him in time to land a blow. 

Huh? How does that indicate that Marco and Vista are capable of the same movement speed? All that scan shows is that they both attacked Akainu at the same time. That's it. We can't even tell where Vista initially started to even make such a conclusion. 

Its unlikely because we already saw him try to attack an Admiral and he failed miserably. The same can't be said for Marco. 



Lmao said:


> Yes. It's like you people forget Haki compliments combat prowess, physical abilities and Devil Fruits alike, both offensively and defensively. Aokiji froze Robin/Luffy and Jozu through direct touch yet the *latter's case was far worse*, how can you even hold back on ice at all? By adjusting the power and intensity, which all characters and especially elemental users are capable of, Akainu is no exception.



You can't prove whether or not Akainu used Haki there. And it's not like it'll take large amount of effort for someone of his caliber to imbue Haki into his magma punches anyways so why not do it? 

In addition, there's not a single legitimate reason to be believe that Akaniu would hold back a magma punch on a person he himself deemed would be extremely dangerous in the future. He chose to pursue someone with such dangerous potential rather than help with the guy who was threatening to sink Marineford. He mowed down practically everyone that got in his way and chased Luffy relentlessly to ensure his death. The guy projected himself with a magma burst at Luffy in this  and even launched a Dai Funka at him in this  for crying out loud. 

It makes absolutely no sense to assume that Akainu would take a risk and deliberately lower the chances of preventing an enormous future threat by holding back after taking all of the above into account.

As for the the bolded, that had nothing to do with Haki or with the lone fact that Jozu was frozen. Aokiji made direct contact with  Luffy/Robin + Jozu and the result was exactly they same for both partys. The only reason Jozu ended up far worse was because Aokiji broke his arm off while he was in brittle state and he could've easily done the same thing to Robin/Luffy if he wanted to irregardless of Haki. 



Lmao said:


> He wasn't holding back


Wtf? You most definitely implied that he was holding back when I asked you:



Kings Disposition said:


> Wait are you implying that the magma fist that he attacked Jinbei + Luffy with is somehow drastically weaker than the one he attacked Whitebeard with?



And you replied: 



Lmao said:


> Yes.


----------



## RF (Jan 5, 2014)

Holy shit, 10 people voted for Marco giving WB a high-diff fight?


----------



## MrWano (Jan 5, 2014)

Marco gives him mid-diff I'd say. Can't see him giving the WSM a high diff. fight and certainly not an extremely tough one.


----------



## Mihawk (Jan 5, 2014)

Can someone kindly notify me the reason for why whether or not Akainu's punch in proportion to Luffy is relevant to WB V Marco?

Pretty sure I can contribute to the discussion if I knew the relation here.


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## Vengeance (Jan 5, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Holy shit, 10 people voted for Marco giving WB a high-diff fight?




What's so weird about it when the guy is on par with Kizaru?

*Spoiler*: __ 



Sorry couldn't resist mate, no offense


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## RF (Jan 5, 2014)

He doesn't have the offensive power to go against WB. Against an endurance monster like him, kicks just won't do it. 

And it's not like an admiral would do much better either.


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## Vengeance (Jan 5, 2014)

This is old Whitebeard we are talking about or? And they would imo


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## Mihawk (Jan 5, 2014)

Whitebeard high diffs Color Trio 

Color Trio high diffs Marco

Whitebeard mid diffs Marco


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## RF (Jan 5, 2014)

Vengeance said:


> This is old Whitebeard we are talking about or? And they would imo



Yeah. Marco can take on an admiral by his lonesome because he can draw out the fight with his fruit and then slowly wear them down by kicking them continiously (basic kicks sent them flying through their blocks), but that shit ain't flying against WB. 

With his outlandish endurance he could sustain hundreds of kicks while in prospect I can't envision Marco shrugging off island splitters at all. That's not to say that the fight wouldn't be tough, it sure would, but high difficulty seems like an overstatement. 

Whitebeard would imo beat any admiral with levels of difficulty ranging from mid to high. I see him straight up mid-diffing someone like Fujitora while having a high diff fight with Kizaru due to his speed and Akainu because he's just that strong. Marco and Aokiji are somewhere in-between, Aokiji mostly due to a bad DF match-up.


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## Lawliet (Jan 5, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Relax, it wasn't meant as an insult of any kind. Though I like the fact you're quite vociferous in denying that you're a Marco fan.
> 
> I suppose given his deep concern about Luffy's bloodline he may have given a tad more impetus to his his attack that he would have normally done. But as an Admiral who's displayed a great deal of professionalism so far, I would argue that that Sakazuki would be professional enough to detach his emotions from his work and especially not let it influence how he fights.
> 
> ...



I am not a Marco fan at all  I hate that character, and what's worse, he has Ichigo's voice . Trust me, I do not like that character at all and I didn't take your post as an insult, I just felt like throwing that away xD.

About the topic. You mentioned that Akainu should be professional to the point where he can detach his emotions from his field of work. However, that is not true. Akainu PROBABLY has a history with piracy, and that's why he hates them so much. He was yelling at MF like a kid, kill all the pirates, give me Luffy and all that sort of things. If anything, Akainu was not able to detach his emotions from his field of work, Thus, his punch was not weak at all, it was meant to kill a huge threat to the WG, therefore, it should be really powerful. A difference in strength doesn't mean an attack should be less powerful than usual. Luffy and Ceaser Clown's strength is really wide, yet; Luffy did not hold a bit.


Doflαmingo said:


> Can someone kindly notify me the reason for why whether or not Akainu's punch in proportion to Luffy is relevant to WB V Marco?
> 
> Pretty sure I can contribute to the discussion if I knew the relation here.



Even though I'm a part of the debate, but I have no idea.


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## Skeleton (Jan 5, 2014)

WB mid diffs Marco.
Also, WB high diffs any of the original 3 admirals.



Doflαmingo said:


> Can someone kindly notify me the reason for why whether or not Akainu's punch in proportion to Luffy is relevant to WB V Marco?
> 
> Pretty sure I can contribute to the discussion if I knew the relation here.



I think it went like this ... 
A: Marco won't reach his regeneration limit fast by WB's quake punches, he was able to stop Akainu's magmafist that tore half of WB's head.
B: An attack aimed for Luffy =/= an attack aimed for WSM.
A: No, there's no reason to believe that Akainu held back.
and so on ...
... or something like that.
What I don't understand is what does WB's quakes have to with Akainu's magma in relation to Marco's regeneration, but oh well whatever


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## 2Broken (Jan 5, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Holy shit, 10 people voted for Marco giving WB a high-diff fight?



 Talk to your fellow Marco fans bro, they are fast losing  their grip on reality.

I know you and I disagree a lot on Marco, but i'm glad to see you don't think he can instant regen from island splitting punches and/or fuck up Whitebeard with some kicks.

Look at , imagine it was Marco who got grabbed and instead of the quake attack he used in the panel imagine multiple haki island splitting quake punches to the head. Then take a minute to remember Marco getting a bruised face in this .

Marco simply cannot engage Whitebeard in direct battle without getting his shit wrecked. Pushing Whitebeard to mid-diff is impressive enough and accurate, high is hilarious.


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## Lmao (Jan 5, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> You must've missed the part where Kizaru had his _guard up_ and Marco completely _broke through_ it. And an aerial advantage over Kizaru isn't as big as you think. Take a look at this . Kizaru has proven to be able transport from mid air to the ground, yet didn't even have a chance to and was forced block instead since Marco reached him in time to land a blow.
> 
> Huh? How does that indicate that Marco and Vista are capable of the same movement speed? All that scan shows is that they both attacked Akainu at the same time. That's it. We can't even tell where Vista initially started to even make such a conclusion.
> 
> Its unlikely because we already saw him try to attack an Admiral and he failed miserably. The same can't be said for Marco.


I don't think you understand what it means to break someone's guard. I specifically explained why Kizaru went flying and you chose to ignore it in order to repeat points I've already covered.

The Commanders were moving as a group as evident by the numerous times we saw them throughout the war, Marco and Vista may not have been side by side when they went to attack Akainu but they were close to each other, their speed is comparable.

What are you talking about? Marco and Vista *combined* failed to damage Akainu, the same can be said for them.

Anyway your scenario in which Marco approaches Whitebeard, dodges and tanks quakes while doing noticeable damage and emerges in perfect health is not happening. It's ridiculous to begin with.



Kings Disposition said:


> You can't prove whether or not Akainu used Haki there. And it's not like it'll take large amount of effort for someone of his caliber to imbue Haki into his magma punches anyways so why not do it?
> 
> In addition, there's not a single legitimate reason to be believe that Akaniu would hold back a magma punch


I don't need to prove what I haven't said, I mentioned Haki to support the notion of Akainu _being capable of _ adjusting the power and intensity behind his magma fists, not to claim he did or didn't use it there.

Using the absolute minimum of effort to kill a character who is:

a) infinitely weaker
b) unable to defend

is not holding back. Luffy would've died regardless of whether Akainu was going to use his weakest or strongest attack, all he needed to do was connect.



Kings Disposition said:


> Wtf? You most definitely implied that he was holding back when I asked you::
> 
> And you replied:


Comprehension is not your strong point. Using a drastically weaker attack in comparison to the ones used on Whitebeard is NOT considered holding back when the target is comatose Luffy. Strengthening his magma fist wouldn't better his chances at hitting Luffy, the result would be the same either way.


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## RF (Jan 5, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Talk to your fellow Marco fans bro, they are fast losing  their grip on reality.
> 
> I know you and I disagree a lot on Marco, but i'm glad to see you don't think he can instant regen from island splitting punches and/or fuck up Whitebeard with some kicks.
> 
> ...



I don't think it's Marco wank though, just that Whitebeard is horribly underrated around here. Many started equating him waay too much with the admirals, nowadays we have people acting as if there wasn't any distinction between them at all.


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## RF (Jan 5, 2014)

> What are you talking about? Marco and Vista combined failed to damage Akainu, the same can be said for them.


How does Marco failing to hit Akainu's human body once in any way indicative of whether or not he is capable of damaging Whitebeard?


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## Lmao (Jan 5, 2014)

>Jinbe tried to attack an Admiral and failed
>same can't be said for Marco

Different context Sakazuki


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## RF (Jan 5, 2014)

But Marco succeeded twice. Same can't be said for Jimbe. Nevermind though, I get your point.


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## trance (Jan 5, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> I don't think it's Marco wank though, *just that Whitebeard is horribly underrated around here.* Many started equating him waay too much with the admirals, nowadays we have people acting as if there wasn't any distinction between them at all.



Like how people _still_ argue against the validity of Whitebeard's title?


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## RF (Jan 5, 2014)

People just somehow can't deal with the fact that he was stronger than everyone else.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 5, 2014)

Lmao said:


> He wasn't holding back, he went for the kill and nobody is arguing otherwise. Luffy couldn't even move much less defend himself yet Akainu used the same punches he was attacking the strongest man in the world, how does that make a shred of sense? There's not a single legit reasoning for this, all I keep seeing is 'he wanted to kill Luffy so bad' when that's hardly relevant and 'magma is magma' which is laughable to say the least.
> 
> We saw a long time ago you can go for the kill while using the appropriate effort to do so:
> 
> ...


_
Luffy was already on a roll in terms of escaping certain death. Akainu made it his job to have him killed and had a chance to get a clean shot in. Akainu used a generic magma fist, the same as in the other examples. That is why we have named attacks, or different representations for the unnamed ones to showcase a difference in strength. If the attacks used by Akainu are all basic, all look the same, and we do not have any reason to doubt his intention to harm his targets then by all means the attacks are as close in "strength" to each other as possible. Even when trying to find similar examples you find yourself reaching and comparing someone like Akainu to someone like Kuzan, people with completely different personalities fact showcased by Oda through the battle between the two. Do you think for example that Sanji's basic DJ attacks have a great variance in strength also ? That the basic DJ kick used against the Pacifista can pack much more or less power than the one used against Vergo or the one used against the Sniper in Dressrosa or the one used against Doflamingo ? Will you argue that every character uses "appropriate effort" with basic attacks to the point where we can not even properly compare feats because those said feats have no basis in actually showing the strength of an attack on different targets but only the willingness of the user to put more or less effort even with his generic attacks ? This king of logic makes little sense to me, i doubt basic attacks take relevant amount of effort from Akainu, and neither his personality nor his determination at the time suggest he would indulge himself to go easy on Luffy in the slightest._


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## Lmao (Jan 5, 2014)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> Will you argue that every character uses "appropriate effort" with basic attacks to the point where we can not even properly compare feats because those said feats have no basis in actually showing the strength of an attack on different targets but only the willingness of the user to put more or less effort even with his generic attacks ?


Not quite, I argue it's entirely possible to go for the kill while using only the necessary effort i.e. not going out of your way to squash a fly. I don't understand how using a magma punch on the lower end of Akainu's power spectrum translates to taking it easy on Luffy, he would've died regardless. Is it not accomplishing the task (killing Luffy) with the least amount of effort the best course of action and the more reasonable choice?


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 5, 2014)

Lmao said:


> Not quite, I argue it's entirely possible to go for the kill while using only the necessary effort i.e. not going out of your way to squash a fly. I don't understand how using a magma punch on the lower end of Akainu's power spectrum translates to taking it easy on Luffy, he would've died regardless. Is it not accomplishing the task (killing Luffy) with the least amount of effort the best course of action and the more reasonable choice?



_Akainu went through a ten days battle against Aokiji, how much taxing do you think his basic magma punch can be for him to go into this "harmony between effort and result" state, when attacking the guy that he was only aiming at himself mostly because it proved to be a pain in the ass to kill to begin with ? What you say sounds reasonable on paper if you talk about machines going for the most efficient result, but not at all in midst of a war from a bloodlusted Akainu, a guy that already showcased a personality of no restraint to the point where he would sacrifice countless lives or attack his own people in order to reach his goals. I would honestly even begin to consider this notion if the one doing the attack was like a manga version of Mr Miyagi and the target someone he only aims to teach/punish but not at all kill._


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## cry77 (Jan 5, 2014)

WB wins with the lower end of high diff.


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## Kings Disposition (Jan 6, 2014)

Lmao said:


> I don't think you understand what it means to break someone's guard. I specifically explained why Kizaru went flying and you chose to ignore it in order to repeat points I've already covered.
> 
> The Commanders were moving as a group as evident by the numerous times we saw them throughout the war, Marco and Vista may not have been side by side when they went to attack Akainu but they were close to each other, their speed is comparable.
> 
> ...



>Kizaru put's his arms up in defense.
>Marco kicks him. 
>Kizaru gets sent flying and explodes into light.

Conclusion: _He broke through his defense_ (if he hadn't, then Kizaru wouldn't have been knocked back with such force). Like I showed with that scan, Marco's aerial advantage isn't as great as you think and you're giving way too much credit to the laws physics here rather than the sheer power of Marco's kick. 

We have no idea exactly where Vista was standing to even begin concluding that they're capable of the same exact speeds. For all we know, Vista could've been standing closer to Akainu and had a head start while Marco could've been standing further away; and as soon as he was freed from his sea stone cuffs, managed to close the gap between the Admiral faster than Vista did and matched the time of his sword slash. We have no idea and using a single scan of them simultaneously attacking Akainu as an indicator that they're capable of achieving the same exact levels of movement speed is ludicrous. 

What am I talking about? Jinbei attempted to punch an Admiral and failed to incovience him in the slightest. Like I initially stated, the same can't be said for Marco because in the two case where he attacked Admirals, they both got launched. 

Yea...being able to *fly* outside of Whitebeard's line of fire is definitely outside the realm of possibly. It's completely unfathomable in fact. And there's absolutely no way in hell the guy takes and regenerates from a quake punch, nope none at all. I'm mean, he took a relentless assault of exploding lasers + magma fist and came out in perfect health so how can he possibly survive any other type of devastating attack. And his noodle kicks? The same ones that launched Admirals? Yea that's definitely, without doubt, just going to tickle Whitebeard. He won't even notice that his own right hand man, the guy spoken in the same breath as the other Yonko's, in the fight at all......./endsarcasm



Lmao said:


> I don't need to prove what I haven't said, I mentioned Haki to support the notion of Akainu _being capable of _ adjusting the power and intensity behind his magma fists, not to claim he did or didn't use it there.
> 
> Using the absolute minimum of effort to kill a character who is:
> 
> ...


What? No matter how you slice it, deliberately lowering the power of an attack by a drastic amount = holding back. And absolute minimal effort?

Was he using the absolute minimum amount of effort when he propelled  himself at Luffy with a burst stream of magma?

Was he using the absolute minimum amount of effort when he launched  *a gigantic Magma fist* (Dai Funka) at Luffy?

There's not a single legitimate reason to assume that a bloodlusted Akainu held back on his Magma fist. None. Whatsoever. He has nothing to lose and everything to gain by attacking with anything but the absolute minimum amount of effort. And the attack itself doesn't require a large amount of effort so it's not like he'd be saving a lot of energy by holding it back either.

Everything he's shown and said indicates that he wanted to maximize the chances of eliminating  someone with such dangerous potential as much as possible and your explanation of Akainu being able to drastically adjust his strength lower doesn't even remotely suggest otherwise.


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## trance (Jan 6, 2014)

It's like Kings Disposition is Sakazuki's partner in crime.


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## Urouge (Jan 7, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> I don't think it's Marco wank though, just that Whitebeard is horribly underrated around here. Many started equating him waay too much with the admirals, nowadays we have people acting as if there wasn't any distinction between them at all.



pff at least no one says that the admirals were stronger than him. a lot of people actually believe that shanks and kaido were stronger.


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## Harard (Jan 7, 2014)

Urouge said:


> pff at least no one says that the admirals were stronger than him. a lot of people actually believe that shanks and kaido were stronger.



You must not have seen the people who say Akainu defeated him when they fought. They're probably trolling, but it's still annoying.


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## Slenderman (Jan 7, 2014)

@King's dispostion You forgot to add the part where Kizaru wasn't even hurt. They both exchanged attacks and did nothing to each other. Manga facts. We can't forget other things to suit one argument.


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## cry77 (Jan 7, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> @King's dispostion You forgot to add the part where Kizaru wasn't even hurt. They both exchanged attacks and did nothing to each other. Manga facts. We can't forget other things to suit one argument.


kizaru is a logia, thus he takes no damage from fall damage. Kizaru just turned (exploded) into light on impact.


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## Slenderman (Jan 7, 2014)

^ Fall damage reminds me of Minecraft.  anywho he's making it sound like Marco did some huge damage to him. Marco couldn't hurt any admirals so KD believes that Marco can hurt admirals because of that.  sound logic.


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## cry77 (Jan 7, 2014)

The admirals never hurt marco either


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## Slenderman (Jan 7, 2014)

Kizaru did.


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## Slenderman (Jan 7, 2014)

inb4 It was an off guard attack. Fact is fact.


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## cry77 (Jan 7, 2014)

kizaru never hurt marco without outside interference


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## Slenderman (Jan 7, 2014)

You said no admirals hurt Marco and I proved you wrong. Now your changing the goalposts. It's not hard to concede when you're wrong.


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## RF (Jan 7, 2014)

The admirals never hurt Marco in a fair fight.


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## Slenderman (Jan 7, 2014)

K but Kizaru still hurt him. Also Kuzan never had a chance to hit Marco because if he did Teach wouldn't break his neck post ts.


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## Magentabeard (Jan 7, 2014)

Akainu > Whitebeard
Akainu = Admiral
Marco = Admiral level
Marco > Whitebeard and his fake title


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## Slenderman (Jan 7, 2014)

^ Words of wisdom


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## Lmao (Jan 9, 2014)

Late reply is late, I've haven't had access to a computer these last few days to properly respond. Anyway:


Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Akainu went through a ten days battle against Aokiji, how much taxing do you think his basic magma punch can be for him to go into this "harmony between effort and result" state, when attacking the guy that he was only aiming at himself mostly because it proved to be a pain in the ass to kill to begin with ?_


Not sure how Akainu's struggle with another character on his level is relevant to comatose Luffy and the amount of power Akainu needed to finish him. It's important to understand that increasing the power of the magma fist *would not better Akainu's chances at hitting Luffy*  i.e. it wouldn't have made his death any more imminent.

Also the notion Marco stopped the same magma punch that tore off half of Whitebeard's face is no less ridiculous than claiming Daz Bones stopped the same air slash Jozu did. Different target - different amount of power required, I can't stress this enough.



Kings Disposition said:


> >Kizaru put's his arms up in defense.
> >Marco kicks him.
> >Kizaru gets sent flying and explodes into light.
> 
> ...


>Marco attacks Kizaru
>the Admiral blocks with his arm
>mocks his kick

I'm giving too much credit on the laws of physics for pointing out obvious facts?

What? Like I said the Commanders were moving as a group and especially after Whitebeard's final orders that they were making their escape. As for Vista, we know .

Can you even keep track of your own arguments? We're not discussing whether Marco is fast enough to dodge quakes nor questioning his ability to regenerate from damage. We're arguing the validity of a scenario in which Marco does all of that in a short exchange, as you presented it:



> Here's a likely scenario between the two:
> 
> Marco flies in close to Whitebeard. Whitebeard tries to slash him,  misses, and Marco throws an extremely hard kick at his face. Whitebeard  strikes back with a quake punch but Marco dodges it by quickly flying  behind him. Whitebeard turns around and throws another quake punch.  Marco dodges again by going out of his line of sight while moving in  close. Once Macro reaches him again and gets in close range, he gets hit  by a quake punch, recovers instantly, and proceeds to land a few more  kicks on Whitebeard like nothing happened. Whitebeard quickly counters  back with a focused bubble quake, Marco gets hit and recovers once more,  kicks him again and flies away once another quake approaches. Rinse and  repeat.
> 
> Whitebeard just took a crapton of damage and Marco's still in perfect health, ready to continue another assault.


To sum up: Marco gets close, dodges three times in succession while kicking him. Once he gets hit, he recovers instantly and  proceeds to land a few more  kicks like nothing happened. 

Apparently Whitebeard can't dodge/block himself but inevitably gets hit every time he misses and Marco's kicks have enough power to do not only visible damage but a lot of it in a few short exchanges. All of this based on the manga.

.....

I'm amazed you still don't get it.



Kings Disposition said:


> What? No matter how you slice it, deliberately lowering the power of an attack by a drastic amount = holding back. And absolute minimal effort?
> 
> Was he using the absolute minimum amount of effort when he propelled  himself at Luffy with a burst stream of magma?
> 
> ...


Keyword: lowering. Using a different attack =/= deliberately lowering the power of your attack.

How is Akainu _propelling _himself remotely relevant to the power behind his magma fist?

Is Luffy a sitting duck? Is he alone and at close range? Is that even the scene we're discussing? No? Then stop bringing up irrelevant points.

Of course there are legitimate reasons. How about the simple fact you're oblivious to: it'd have gotten the job done? If even his weakest magma punch can kill a wide open comatose Luffy, why the hell would he choose to use a strong one instead? That would be absolutely pointless.



Kings Disposition said:


> Everything he's shown and said indicates that *he wanted to maximize the chances* of eliminating  someone with such dangerous potential


And that is precisely why your argument falls short - increasing his power wouldn't better, let alone maximize, the chances of killing Luffy. The result would be the same.


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## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Whitebeard wins with the same amount of difficulty that it would take to defeat Kizaru, in other words high difficulty.


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