# Current Zoro runs the gauntlet



## MYJC (Aug 18, 2013)

He is fully healed after each fight. Manga knowledge. 

1. Crocodile and Mr. 1

2. Hody Jones (overdosed on Energy Steroids, same version that Luffy fought near the end of Fishman Island)

3. Ivankov

4. Jinbei

5. Smoker

6. Vergo

7. Ace

8. Yami Teach


How far does Zoro get?


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## Zorofangirl24 (Aug 18, 2013)

Clears comfortably. The last 3 will give him no more than mid difficulty.


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## Dunno (Aug 18, 2013)

Clears 1 through 6. The outcome of the remaining two is uncertain.


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## Imagine (Aug 18, 2013)

Probably stops at 6, if not, 7.


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## Orca (Aug 18, 2013)

1. Is this 2 on 1? If yes then zoro loses.

2. Zoro mid diff

3. Zoro ext high diff

4. Zoro ext high diff

5. 50/50

6. Zoro Extr high diff

7. Ace High diff.

8. Teach High diff.

I wanted to say 50/50 for 3,4 and 6 but oh well.


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## Dellinger (Aug 18, 2013)

He for sure stops at Ace and Teach.


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## Gervin (Aug 18, 2013)

Wins the first 3, 50/50 on 4-6, loses to Ace and Teach.


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## Firo (Aug 18, 2013)

He stops at Vergo.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 18, 2013)

I think he stops at Ace. 

Lol Zorofangirl always good for a laugh. Zoro is going to beat Yami Teach with Mid-diff....Although i forgot Zoro is top tier in your mind so that's actually a compliment to Teach.


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## Slenderman (Aug 18, 2013)

Zoro stops at Ace.


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## trance (Aug 18, 2013)

Jinbe three spots below Ace? 

Seriously?


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## convict (Aug 18, 2013)

Trance said:


> Jinbe three spots below Ace?
> 
> Seriously?



Remember how Ace was only a rookie when he fought Jinbei for 5 days straight? 

Anyways he stops at Ace in my opinion. Iva is a wildcard but I will give Zoro the benefit of the doubt currently.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Aug 18, 2013)

Luffee said:


> 1. Is this 2 on 1? If yes then zoro loses.


 Rightttt....
1.lOl
2.lOl
3.We have no other way to measure the guy but with his clash with Kuma and the fact that he's inferior to an admiral. Now if Kuma=Iva and Zoro was able to hold himself up against named techniques, considering how much he has grow there shouldn't be any problem with him beating the guy, and thus Zoro>Iva
4.Zoro mid-high because I think he and Sanji are equal.
5.Smoker was very underwhelming. I'm thinking he should be above Sanji but still not enough to take on Zoro. High difficulty.
6.Vergo and Smoker seem pretty even while Smoker wasn't going for the win, so high difficulty again.
7. No idea how to measure the guy, and that's mostly because I don't think Oda really tried to or have to think of Ace's place in the overall rooster. 
8.Again no idea. One minute he's fighting Ace a commander from the newWorld, the other he's put to the ground by Luffy and then to mindfuck us some more gets hit by whitebeard.


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## trance (Aug 18, 2013)

convict said:


> Remember how Ace was only a rookie when he fought Jinbei for 5 days straight?.



I know but even still, they should still be comparable.

Anyway, Zoro gets to Jinbe.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 18, 2013)

Stops at any point from Iva onwards. Ace is the farthest he can reach.


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## Halcyon (Aug 18, 2013)

1. Blood festival

2. Sushi

3. Unsure, but I would have to guess Zoro beats him. Diff is an unknown.

4. Zoro high diff.

5. Zoro high diff

6. Zoro very high diff

7. Ace high-very high diff

8. Yami Teach... not sure.


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## convict (Aug 18, 2013)

Trance said:


> I know but even still, they should still be comparable.
> 
> Anyway, Zoro gets to Jinbe.



You don't think Smoker or Vergo are comparable to Ace? Just because there are people similar in strength in between two characters on a tier list doesn't necessarily mean the two characters are far apart in terms of overall strength.


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## SuperSaqer (Aug 18, 2013)

Stops at Teach.


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## Zihawk (Aug 19, 2013)

1-2 get ROFLstomped, Ivankov will be his first challenge, and I think he beats him honestly, he's got the reaction speed, and deadly power to ruin Ivan's day: mid diff.

Jinbei will take no less than high mid difficulty, but, once again, I believe Zoro's reaction speed is more than enough to outstrip his. Look at the way he was dodging the pad cannons from Kuma pre-skip, a character more or less on the same tier as Jinbei, and at the same time, not only was he seriously injured, but he couldn't even see the attacks that were being fired at him. A Lion's song of death would push Jinbei's shit in, bladed attacks are much more deadly than a blunt force attack of the same strength, because all of the force is concentrated on a small area.

Smoker is going to be mid high difficulty. His fight with Law proved he was a physical powerhouse, he chokeslammed him and had him in the defensive for a portion of the fight. Room shenanigans and hax did him in. Zoro just has brute strength, which Smoker has in spades as well. It's gonna be a long battle, but I believe that Zoro's durability and endurance will win him the match moreso than his other characteristics. He'll outlast Smoker and cut him down with an Iai technique, we have plenty of example's of Zoro's endurance, and there's no reason why it would fail him here. 60-40 Zoro.

Vergo is an extreme diff match, cracking Sanji's leg, and challenging Law is no small feat. But Zoro strikes me as physically stronger than Law who, although he isn't weak by any means, relies on his fruit for the range of his slashes moreso than brute strength. It's gonna be an even closer fight than the smoker one, but I still see Zoro killing him in the end. Luffy broke through Chinjao's defense without even stretching, and I wouldn't say that Vergo's defense is better than Chinjao's by a noticible amount, if at all, and a Luffy not using his DF abilities is certainly inferior to Zoro. Zoro 55-45.

Not touching the Ace battle, but if he does win, I actually see him having a 50/50 match against Teach. Teach tends to tank shit, and that the worst possible thing to try to do against a swordsman unless you are Jozu. If he tries to tank an attack from Zoro he gets him arm chopped the fuck off, or at least disabled for the rest of the fight. Moreover, while Yami Teach could wail on Ace's Logia dependant ass, Zoro is used to getting his shit pushed in, he takes all his hits and keeps on fighting. One slam from Teach will hurt, but it certainly wont hinder Zoro. And I will once again reference the paw pad incident with Kuma, Teaches punches have no way in hell of hitting if he can dodge invisible shit from Kuma pre-skip. He'll have to suck him in, at which point he gets cut. Zoro is a bad matchup for Teach honestly, and I can see Zoro beating him extreme diff.


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## trance (Aug 19, 2013)

convict said:


> You don't think Smoker or Vergo are comparable to Ace? Just because there are people similar in strength in between two characters on a tier list doesn't necessarily mean the two characters are far apart in terms of overall strength.



Jinbe should be more comparable to Ace than Smoker and maybe Vergo are...

Jinbe should be right underneath Ace...


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## Furinji Saiga (Aug 19, 2013)

Clears with the exception of Ace and Teach. But those fights could go either way.


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## Shinthia (Aug 19, 2013)

stops at Smoker ,if not Vergo


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## Zihawk (Aug 19, 2013)

Furinji Saiga said:


> Clears with the exception of Ace and Teach. But those fights could go either way.



Teach would have a harder time than Ace. Zoro has no DF, and his basic attacks cleave through pacifista. He can also dodge a pad cannon barrage from Kuma pre-skip, Teaches attacks don't come out anywhere near that fast. Teach isn't shrugging off unnamed slashes from Zoro, much less a Daishinkan or a shishi sonson.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 19, 2013)

Teach caught G2 Luffy. He's gonna catch Zoro on mid-air and will break his neck


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## Zihawk (Aug 19, 2013)

Battousai said:


> Teach caught G2 Luffy. He's gonna catch Zoro on mid-air and will break his neck



He caught Pre-skip Luffy who was running off of hormones and willpower in order to cling to life 

And I can just as easily claim that dodging invisible attacks by the hundreds against a high tier like Kuma>>>>>>catching and slamming a surprised Luffy, who didnt have the common sense to punch Teach in the face when he sucked him in cause he felt his DF powers going away. Which brings me to my next point, he didn't react and catch him, he sucked him in with Kurozu. Thats not a reaction feat at all for Teach. He didnt have to track his movements, all he had to do was stick his hand out, and let the black hole suck him in.

This is hardly applicable to post skip Zoro, I know you can do better than that. And Teach REALLY does not want Zoro closer to him, cause Zoro cleaves Pacifista with unnamed slashes in base. Teach isnt tanking that shit, and he'd be lucky to just have one of his limbs severed. Zoro also has CoO, which Teach never displayed, and a decent handle of CoA. Teach isn't walking away from this. He gets de-limbed for trying to tank shit.


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## convict (Aug 19, 2013)

Trance said:


> Jinbe should be more comparable to Ace than Smoker and maybe Vergo are...
> 
> Jinbe should be right underneath Ace...



You speak as if Ace didn't grow significantly faster than the already veteran Jinbei in the years since they fought, as a teenage rookie with more potential than anyone else in the world being the son of Roger, maybe only barring Luffy himself. Just look how quickly Supernovas such as Law and Luffy grew in 2 years. Since their fight Ace should obviously have created a more than minute gap and there is zero evidence that Jinbei made that up in the past two years as he should be around in his prime at this point without as much room to grow. At the very least it is not laughable at all to assume people like Vergo or Smoker can now stand in between the two.


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## trance (Aug 19, 2013)

convict said:


> You speak as if Ace didn't grow significantly faster than the already veteran Jinbei in the years since they fought, as a teenage rookie with more potential than anyone else in the world being the son of Roger, maybe only barring Luffy himself. Just look how quickly Supernovas such as Law and Luffy grew in 2 years. Since their fight Ace should obviously have created a more than minute gap and there is zero evidence that Jinbei made that up in the past two years as he should be around in his prime at this point without as much room to grow. At the very least it is not laughable at all to assume people like Vergo or Smoker can now stand in between the two.



I am factoring Ace growing stronger after his fight with Jinbe but he still couldn't have been massively ahead of Jinbe before Ace died...

They should still be on the same general level...


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## convict (Aug 19, 2013)

'General Level'.

Honestly I agree the difference isn't too huge, however, at this point there is room for multiple people who are also on the same general level to be ahead of Jinbei yet below Ace. Law is a good example. And so is Vergo. If you disagree that Vergo is stronger than Jinbei that is a separate matter, however, I just want to stress that Jinbei isn't right under Ace on the tier ladder bar none anymore.


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## DeathPony (Aug 19, 2013)

He stops at 4, he ain't beating Jimbei...(and mid diff? Really Trolonoa? I know you wank Zoro into the high heavens but fuck LOL)


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## Zihawk (Aug 19, 2013)

DeathPony said:


> He stops at 4, he ain't beating Jimbei...(and mid diff? Really Trolonoa? I know you wank Zoro into the high heavens but fuck LOL)



>Thinks current Zoro can't beat Jinbei
>struggles to comprehend how a logical reader of the manga could hold this opinion
>looks at sig

It all makes sense


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## trance (Aug 19, 2013)

"Zorowank tier list" 

DeathPony, you are actually more horrendous than ZFG.

Negged.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 19, 2013)

Why am I not in his list?


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

TrolonoaZoro said:
			
		

> Rightttt....



 Problem?


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## Halcyon (Aug 19, 2013)

Only a mid tier? Gotta step my game up


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## Unclear Justice (Aug 19, 2013)

Halcyon 5 said:


> Only a mid tier? Gotta step my game up



Train two years with a top tier of your choice, you should easily make it to high tier.


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## barreltheif (Aug 19, 2013)

Makes it to Ace, then loses.


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## Sayonara (Aug 19, 2013)

He runs into trouble at Ace and Yami BB, hes at their sort of level and will give them very hard and long fights but possibly lacks experience to back it up.


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## punisher223 (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> 1. Is this 2 on 1? If yes then zoro loses.
> 
> 2. Zoro mid diff
> 
> ...



This seems most likely; But gauntlet wise if he manages to get past #1 he stops at ace for sure


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## Luis209 (Aug 19, 2013)

Stops at Ace.


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## Sanji (Aug 19, 2013)

Stops at Smoker or Vergo.


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

For you people saying Zoro loses to Crocodile and Daz Bones, stop it.  There is no way post skip Zoro is losing to high mid / low high tier Crocodile and fodder Mr. 1.  Crocodile's MF feats are overrated and thinking that Mr. 1 makes any sort of difference in this fight is borderline idiotic.  Maybe when they appear post skip I'll change my mind, but for now all we have to go on is the duo that was beaten by freaking Alabasta Luffy and Zoro, both of whom combined are <<<<<<<<<<<<< post-skip Zoro.

I like Croc way more than Zoro, but we all have to be rational here.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:


> For you people saying Zoro loses to Crocodile and Daz Bones, stop it.  There is no way post skip Zoro is losing to high mid / low high tier Crocodile and fodder Mr. 1.  Crocodile's MF feats are overrated and thinking that Mr. 1 makes any sort of difference in this fight is borderline idiotic.  Maybe when they appear post skip I'll change my mind, but for now all we have to go on is the duo that was beaten by freaking Alabasta Luffy and Zoro, both of whom combined are <<<<<<<<<<<<< post-skip Zoro.
> 
> I like Croc way more than Zoro, but we all have to be rational here.



Crocodile doesn't even need daz bones. You are under rating him.


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## Halcyon (Aug 19, 2013)

There's a space in my name, it must be a different Halcyon I guess.

I would definitely be Top Tier.



Luffee said:


> Crocodile doesn't even need daz bones. You are under rating him.




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> Crocodile doesn't even need daz bones. You are under rating him.



Underrating?  The man was beaten by Alabasta Luffy.  ALABASTA LUFFY.  Zoro chops his head off in two seconds.  And before anyone brings up MF, all Croc did in the war was get kicked in the face by Luffy, punched in the face by Jozu, sables Buggy, deflect an attack by Mihawk and was never seen in that skirmish again, get his head sliced off by Dofla, make one completely ineffective attack against Akainu and KO two fodder executioners.  Not what I would call impressive.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Aug 19, 2013)

DeathPony said:


> He stops at 4, he ain't beating Jimbei...(and mid diff? Really Trolonoa? I know you wank Zoro into the high heavens but fuck LOL)



Zoro isn't Sanji, Zoro is much stronger. He will also have a better time fighting Vergo/Smoker cuz he has swords
Zoro > Vergo > Smoker > Jinbei >= Sanji.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:
			
		

> The man was beaten by Alabasta Luffy. ALABASTA LUFFY



Apart from the fact that luffy lost twice and would have died the third time too, yes crocodile did lose to Luffy. But that's old history. Look where the straw hats are now. They aren't the only ones who can grow.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> Zoro chops his head off in two seconds.



If this is true then I guess zoro has already achieved his dream of being WSM. Because even mihawk wasn't capable of this feat of beating croc in two seconds.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> And before anyone brings up MF



You better believe it because I am bringing it up.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> all Croc did in the war was get kicked in the face by Luffy



No he didn't get kicked in the face. Luffy merely deflected His hook. Just because marco stopped kizaru, doesn't make kizaru marco's bitch.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> deflect an attack by Mihawk and was never seen in that skirmish again



And your point is?



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> get his head sliced off by Dofla



And how did that affect crocodile? He was still standing there with that pimp face.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> make one completely ineffective attack against Akainu



I don't know about you but had croc not been there, akainu would have magma fingered jinbei.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> KO two fodder executioners



I don't see how this is relevant here. But since you brought it up I think I should remind you that the "Two fodder executioners" had everyone shitting their pants.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> Not what I would call impressive



Ummm. Ok

But seriously, even after all of that, croc has been pimping bitches in New world for two years now after his escape from ID. He doesn't need daz bones here. Crocodile=Zoro.


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

^ We can't use post-skip Croc if we haven't even seen him yet.  I don't care what you infer his actions are in the NW.  And this is ridiculous, I don't care if it did take Luffy three tries, Alabasta Luffy is still leagues below current Zoro.  There are many people on this forum that debate that Alabasta Zoro could beat Croc under the right circumstances, and their reasoning (usually) isn't too far-fetched.  About Croc stalling Akainu, I don't care about plot relevance.  That attack still did absolute shit to Akainu.  I'm not even going to respond to your statement about the executioners because your'e cherry-picking the situation out of context.  Stop ruining a perfectly good character with your wank.


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## Halcyon (Aug 19, 2013)

Don't read unless you think Croc > current Sanji

*Spoiler*: __ 





Luffee said:


> Apart from the fact that luffy lost twice and would have died the third time too, yes crocodile did lose to Luffy. But that's old history. Look where the straw hats are now. They aren't the only ones who can grow.


He still lost to a very weak version of Luffy. Plus, you're implying his growth rate is on par with the SHs, so no.



> If this is true then I guess zoro has already achieved his dream of being WSM. Because even mihawk wasn't capable of this feat of beating croc in two seconds.


Mihawk didn't give two fucks about Croc. Saying he wasn't capable is laughable, why don't you make that match up in the OPBD?




> You better believe it because I am bringing it up.


It brings nothing new to the table, so go ahead.




> I don't see how this is relevant here. But since you brought it up I think I should remind you that the "Two fodder executioners" had everyone shitting their pants.



Everyone?





> Ummm. Ok



What's impressive about any of what he listed?



> But seriously, even after all of that, croc has been pimping bitches in New world for two years now after his escape from ID. He doesn't need daz bones here. *Crocodile=Zoro*.


And your basis for this... is because Croc has been pimping bitches?

He stands 0.00% against any of the M3 in his preskip form. Alabasta or MF, they're the same.


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

^ This.  ALL OF THIS.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:
			
		

> We can't use post-skip Croc if we haven't even seen him yet. I don't care what you infer his actions are in the NW



Yes we can. And I don't care whether you care or not.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> Alabasta Luffy is still leagues below current Zoro



Agreed. Thanks for saying the obvious.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> There are many people on this forum that debate that Alabasta Zoro could beat Croc under the right circumstances



I also believe he could have beaten croc under the right circumstances. But he wouldn't have faired any better than luffy. I don't see how this helps your argument.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> About Croc stalling Akainu, I don't care about plot relevance



Again I don't see how this helps your argument. Zoro wouldn't have faired against akainu any better either. That's unless you think zoro > Akainu



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> I'm not even going to respond to your statement about the executioners



You shouldn't. The executioners weren't relevant here anyway and you brought it up.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> Stop ruining a perfectly good character with your wank.



I'm a wanker, you're wanker... Calling eachother wankers wouldn't get us anywhere so I recommend dropping the wanker stinct and come up with something better than telling me you don't care about my reasons

And just so you know. I like zoro and croc equally.


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

Ugh.  Alright, let me ask you this.  How do you think MF Croc stands in comparison to MF Luffy?


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## Halcyon (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:


> ^ We can't use post-skip Croc if we haven't even seen him yet.





Luffee said:


> Yes we can.



I'm out. .​


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Halcyon 5 said:


> I'm out. .​



You're a self proclaimed zoro wanker. 

If this was post ts Zoro vs MF Crocodile then we don't have any argument. Obviously zoro beats a MF Crocodile.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:


> Ugh.  Alright, let me ask you this.  How do you think MF Croc stands in comparison to MF Luffy?



The same as SA/MF Zoro compares to MF luffy.


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

We have seen post ts Zoro.  We have NOTHING on post ts Croc, not even hype.  Using feat-less, standing-less, hype-less characters is kind of a no-no.  Therefore, the only Croc we have to go by is pre-skip Croc.  I agree that when he shows up he will likely be much stronger than he was pre-skip, but we can't use something that essentially does not exist yet.

Edit: And I notice you double post quite a bit.  Try to avoid that.  Not trying to be a dick, but just edit your responses in the future.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:


> We have seen post ts Zoro.  We have NOTHING on post ts Croc, not even hype.  Using feat-less, standing-less, hype-less characters is kind of a no-no.  Therefore, the only Croc we have to go by is pre-skip Croc.  I agree that when he shows up he will likely be much stronger than he was pre-skip, but we can't use something that essentially does not exist yet.



So then there's no problem.

Post ts Zoro >> MF Crocodile

Whether or not post ts zoro can beat post ts crocodile is unclear. If we agree on that then there's no problem.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:
			
		

> Edit: And I notice you double post quite a bit. Try to avoid that. Not trying to be a dick, but just edit your responses in the future.



I'm confused. When did I double post?


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

You just did it.  Just multi-quote or edit your responses to avoid posting back to back.  Sometimes it's kind of unavoidable, but try to make a habit of not doing it.

And yes, if we agree that post-ts Croc vs. post-ts Zoro should be inconclusive, then we have no problem.


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## Halcyon (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> You're a self proclaimed zoro wanker.
> 
> If this was post ts Zoro vs MF Crocodile then we don't have any argument. Obviously zoro beats a MF Crocodile.


uwot m8? 

When did I proclaim myself a Zoro wanker, outside of jokes?

Post Skip Croc is an unknown, claiming he's as strong as Zoro is ridiculously unfounded speculation.

But I'm arguing with the guy that doesn't realize he's double posting.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Halcyon_5 said:
			
		

> Mihawk didn't give two fucks about Croc. Saying he wasn't capable is laughable, why don't you make that match up in the OPBD?



When daz stopped mihawk, mihawk slashed him and moved on. When croc stopped him, he obviously gave a fuck and therefore stopped.

And why should I make a match up. Mihawk>> Croc. I never denied that.



			
				Halcyon_5 said:
			
		

> And your basis for this... is because Croc has been pimping bitches?
> 
> He stands 0.00% against any of the M3 in his preskip form. Alabasta or MF, they're the same.



If you say a preskip croc stands 0.00% against any of the Post ts M3 then I agree. I never denied that.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:
			
		

> You just did it. Just multi-quote or edit your responses to avoid posting back to back. Sometimes it's kind of unavoidable, but try to make a habit of not doing it.



I find it more convenient this way. But thanks for the suggestion.



			
				Halcyon_5 said:
			
		

> But I'm arguing with the guy that doesn't realize he's double posting.



 Problem?


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

The powers that be of the forums don't find it more convenient, though.  Just trying to save you some future hassle.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:


> The powers that be of the forums don't find it more convenient, though.  Just trying to save you some future hassle.



I'd appreciate it if you direct me to where it says you can't post back to back.


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## trance (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> *Yes we can.* And I don't care whether you care or not.



So, we can post-TS Croc now, huh? 

So, I guess we can use post-TS Arlong or post-TS Lucci or maybe even post-TS Enel (he must be SUPER STRONG).


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Trance said:


> So, we can post-TS Croc now, huh?
> 
> So, I guess we can use post-TS Arlong or post-TS Lucci or maybe even post-TS Enel (he must be SUPER STRONG).



I was assuming that everyone was saying pts zoro > pts Croc. Or SA/MF > MF croc.  Which obviously I don't agree with. But it turns out it was pts zoro > MF croc. So no problem here. 

And yes I'm sure pts lucci and enel are super strong.


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## trance (Aug 19, 2013)

Lol, no. 

 We literally have *no* clue how strong the the post-TS versions are since they haven't made an appearance yet...post-TS Croc could be anywhere from just a bit stronger to massively stronger (lol)...


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Trance said:


> Lol, no.
> 
> We literally have *no* clue how strong the the post-TS versions are since they haven't made an appearance yet...post-TS Croc could be anywhere from just a bit stronger to massively stronger (lol)...



Ever heard of a opinions or speculation. Ofcourse I'm not oda so I can't say for fact that crocodile will be massively stronger. But I can at least deduce from what we have seen.

Going by your logic dragon might as well be a pussy since we haven't seen much of him yet.


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## trance (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> Ever heard of a opinions or speculation. Ofcourse I'm not oda so I can't say for fact that crocodile will be massively stronger. But I can at least deduce from what we have seen.
> 
> Going by your logic dragon might as well be a pussy since we haven't seen much of him yet.



No, Dragon has hype (the most in the series). That's why people consistently put him at like Shanks' or Akainu's level.

Now, he may turn out to be alot weaker than his hype predicted but until that time comes, we kerp him at that level...

Post-TS Croc has no hype...you can think that he has become much stronger (which is cool) but like you said, it's all speculation til something comes up...


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

I didn't say croc and dragon are equals or they have the same hype. 

I was just a making a point that you can deduce how strong croc could be just like you deduce how strong dragon could be.


----------



## jNdee~ (Aug 19, 2013)

Lucci and Enel super strong TS


----------



## trance (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> I was just a making a point that you can deduce how strong croc could be just like you deduce how strong dragon could be.



Yes but at least with Dragon, we have at least an idea where to pinpoint his strength level (for now)...

Post-TS Croc is a shot in the dark...


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

You can't pinpoint his power. Well at least I can't. Please tell me how you did so.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 19, 2013)

Not stronger than geared Luffy


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## trance (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> You can't pinpoint his power. Well at least I can't. Please tell me how you did so.



Hype, bro. Like I said.

Make a thread in the OL asking people how strong they think Dragon is personally and I guarantee 80-90% of people will say Yonko/Admiral level.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Trance said:


> Hype, bro. Like I said.
> 
> Make a thread in the OL asking people how strong they think Dragon is personally and I guarantee 80-90% of people will say Yonko/Admiral level.



But that isn't "pinpointing". He could be anywhere from "equal to shanks" to "a level above shanks".

Yonko/Admiral level isn't pinpointing. I also agree he is this level. I was just making a point.


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

They mean gauging power levels within context given by the manga.  Dragon has the hype of being the most dangerous man in the world.  Post skip Croc has no hype whatsoever.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:


> They mean gauging power levels within context given by the manga.  Dragon has the hype of being the most dangerous man in the world.  Post skip Croc has no hype whatsoever.



As I said above. I wasn't comparing crocodile's hype to dragon's. 

I was merely stating that we can at least deduce just like we deduce dragon is admiral/Yonko level.


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

Yes, but there is no hype supporting Croc.  What we're saying is that you're comparing apples to oranges.  Dragon is viewed as powerful because of hype and standing.  Post ts Croc is powerful because of...?


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:


> Yes, but there is no hype supporting Croc.  What we're saying is that you're comparing apples to oranges.  Dragon is viewed as powerful because of hype and standing.  Post ts Croc is powerful because of...?



Because I consider him a antihero. Antiheroes are one of the most powerful characters in shonen series and their growth is comparable to the main protagonist.


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> Because I consider him a antihero. Antiheroes are one of the most powerful characters in shonen series and their growth is comparable to the main protagonist.



Wiper is an anti-hero.  How powerful do you think post-ts Wiper is?


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:


> Wiper is an anti-hero.  How powerful do you think post-ts Wiper is?



Ivankov is a revolutionary. But he is no dragon.

Similarly wiper might be an antihero but he doesn't have the same relevance as crocodile.

If you want to think wiper = Crocodile. Please do. I won't hold it against you.


----------



## Typhon (Aug 19, 2013)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> Rightttt....
> 1.lOl
> 2.lOl
> 3.We have no other way to measure the guy but with his clash with Kuma and the fact that he's inferior to an admiral. Now if Kuma=Iva and Zoro was able to hold himself up against named techniques, considering how much he has grow there shouldn't be any problem with him beating the guy, and thus Zoro>Iva
> ...



Come on now. 

Zoro should have a harder time with Jinbei then both Smoker and Vergo and that's just going off what we know from pre skip Jinbei.

Honestly I think he stops either at 4 or 7.


----------



## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

I brought up Wiper to suggest that you're argument that being an anti-hero automatically = always increasing in power doesn't hold up.  And what relevance does Croc have over Wiper recently?  Neither has appeared post skip (wait, nevermind, Wiper HAS actually appeared post skip).  While I agree that Croc most likely will show up in the future, as of now we have no idea how powerful he is right now.  We can't just base our arguments off of blind speculation.  Shoddily supported speculation, yes, but not completely blind.


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## trance (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> Antiheroes are one of the most powerful characters in shonen series and their growth is comparable to the main protagonist.



What you mean guys like Vegeta and Hiei?


----------



## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:
			
		

> I brought up Wiper to suggest that you're argument that being an anti-hero automatically = always increasing in power doesn't hold up. And what relevance does Croc have over Wiper recently? Neither has appeared post skip (wait, nevermind, Wiper HAS actually appeared post skip). While I agree that Croc most likely will show up in the future



Not every antihero is as relevant or important. Just like pell,dalton,gonfall are not as important as luffy.

Crocodile is a lot more relevant than wiper. How? He has a lot more screen time. He's a recurring character. He has a secret that we're waiting to hear. We have seen croc post ts. All these are indications that he's more relevant. We don't even know if we'll see wiper again other then maybe the final war.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> as of now we have no idea how powerful he is right now. We can't just base our arguments off of blind speculation. Shoddily supported speculation, yes, but not completely blind.



Most of the things being discussed in forums are speculation. I ask you who is stronger, zoro or sanji? Your answer will be speculation not a canon fact.



			
				Trance said:
			
		

> What you mean guys like Vegeta and Hiei?



Yes.


----------



## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

Zoro > Sanji speculation has support.  Such as Zoro consistently fighting the 2nd strongest enemy in each arc and being the only one to confront his captain (both physically and verbally).  Croc being = to Zoro has absolutely no support.

And about Croc being similar to Hiei and Vegeta, the difference is that both Hiei and Vegeta became part of the main cast and consistently fought in every arc of their respective mangas.  Croc has done no such thing.


----------



## jNdee~ (Aug 19, 2013)

Kidd is more of an anti-hero than croc :sanji


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:
			
		

> Zoro > Sanji speculation has support. Such as Zoro consistently fighting the 2nd strongest enemy in each arc and being the only one to confront his captain (both physically and verbally). Croc being = to Zoro has absolutely no support.



We are going off topic here but Zoro> Sanji is speculation. Yes zoro fights the second strongest but zoro always faces more difficulty whereas sanji completes his fights rather easily comparatively.

That's what I like about one piece. Oda leaves everything upto the reader to decide and makes us speculate. Most of one piece appeal is based on speculation.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> And about Croc being similar to Hiei and Vegeta, the difference is that both Hiei and Vegeta became part of the main cast and consistently fought in every arc of their respective mangas. Croc has done no such thing.



I didn't say crocodile is a copycat of vegeta/hiei. Vegeta appeared halfway through the series anyway. And we only completed half of one piece recently. And crocodile isn't the only vegeta of one piece in my opinion. One piece has a large array of different characters that fit into different categories. That's what I like about it.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Battousai said:


> Kidd is more of an anti-hero than croc :sanji



True. That can be said of him. I consider both Kidd and croc the vegetas of one piece.


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## trance (Aug 19, 2013)

Battousai said:


> Kidd is more of an anti-hero than croc :sanji


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> We are going off topic here but Zoro> Sanji is speculation. Yes zoro fights the second strongest but zoro always faces more difficulty whereas sanji completes his fights rather easily comparatively.



Subtext, man, subtext.  Anybody with a brain can tell that Oda is portraying Zoro as ever so slightly stronger than Sanji based on matchups.  I can also throw in that Zoro is almost never at 100% during any of his fights.





Luffee said:


> I didn't say crocodile is a copycat of vegeta/hiei. Vegeta appeared halfway through the series anyway. And we only completed half of one piece recently. And crocodile isn't the only vegeta of one piece in my opinion. One piece has a large array of different characters that fit into different categories. That's what I like about it.



Ok.  Tien appeared as an antagonist around the same time Croc showed up.  He REALLY kept up with Goku, didn't he?

Or maybe you would prefer a more direct example in Piccolo?  Even he got left in the dust pretty quickly.

You can't directly base on anti-hero's strength off of the main character.  Hell, even Vegeta couldn't keep up with Goku for 90% of DBZ.


----------



## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:
			
		

> Subtext, man, subtext. Anybody with a brain can tell that Oda is portraying Zoro as ever so slightly stronger than Sanji based on matchups. I can also throw in that Zoro is almost never at 100% during any of his fights.



There is a big group of people who don't believe in zoro>sanji. I believe they all have brain cells.

I personally like zoro more and side with zoro in the zoro vs sanji debates. But even I acknowledge that oda hasn't specifically mentioned zoro>sanji. He only gives hints and leaves it upto the reader to decide.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> Ok. Tien appeared as an antagonist around the same time Croc showed up. He REALLY kept up with Goku, didn't he?
> 
> Or maybe you would prefer a more direct example in Piccolo? Even he got left in the dust pretty quickly.
> 
> You can't directly base on anti-hero's strength off of the main character. Hell, even Vegeta couldn't keep up with Goku for 90% of DBZ.



Piccolo was stronger than goku at certain points in the anime. The same is true for vegeta. You can't expect them to be stronger than eos goku.

Similarly you can't expect croc to be comparable to Eos pirate king luffy.


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## trance (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:


> Subtext, man, subtext.  *Anybody with a brain can tell that Oda is portraying Zoro as ever so slightly stronger than Sanji based on matchups.*  I can also throw in that Zoro is almost never at 100% during any of his fights.



ZFG24 thinks Zoro > Luffy >> Sanji. So, what does that say? 



> You can't directly base on anti-hero's strength off of the main character. * Hell, even Vegeta couldn't keep up with Goku for 90% of DBZ.*



Vegeta did surpass Goku at least twice, though.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 19, 2013)

What the fuck Trance, are against my beliefs? :sanji


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Trance said:
			
		

> ZFG24 thinks Zoro > Luffy >> Sanji. So, what does that say?



That's what I'm trying to tell Gervin. Some people think luffy=zoro whereas some think luffy>zoro. I think both can be argued for because oda doesn't specifically say that luffy> or = zoro. It's all speculation.

But I do believe that zoro> luffy is bullshit lmao.


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> There is a big group of people who don't believe in zoro>sanji. I believe they all have brain cells.
> 
> I personally like zoro more and side with zoro in the zoro vs sanji debates. But even I acknowledge that oda hasn't specifically mentioned zoro>sanji. He only gives hints and leaves it upto the reader to decide.



Yes, Oda hints.  Which is waaaaaaaaaaay more than he's ever done in regards to current Croc.



Trance said:


> ZFG24 thinks Zoro > Luffy >> Sanji. So, what does that say?



I've come to think that she might be kind of silly in some ways 




Trance said:


> Vegeta did surpass Goku at least twice, though.



Yup.  Because, ya know, Vegeta actually had consistent manga panels to be able to do so.  Croc hasn't shown up in over 100 chapters


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## jNdee~ (Aug 19, 2013)

At least you don't believe in fiction 

Fuck Vegeta, so obsessed with power.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:
			
		

> Yup. Because, ya know, Vegeta actually had consistent manga panels to be able to do so. Croc hasn't shown up in over 100 chapters



Dude, you do realise that vegeta showed up halfway through the series. Plus one piece reached its halfway recently. Plus you can't expect them to be exactly similar.


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## trance (Aug 19, 2013)

Battousai said:


> What the fuck Trance, are against my beliefs? :sanji



 

I would never do that.



Luffee said:


> That's what I'm trying to tell Gervin. Some people think luffy=zoro whereas some think luffy>zoro. I think both can be argued for because oda doesn't specifically say that luffy> or = zoro. It's all speculation.
> 
> But I do believe that zoro> luffy is bullshit lmao.



Luffy = Zoro is bullshit.

Zoro > Luffy is major delusional bullshit.

:sanji




Gervin said:


> I've come to think that she might be kind of silly in some ways



Lol. Yea, "kind of silly" sounds right. 



> Yup.  Because, ya know, Vegeta actually had consistent manga panels to be able to do so.  Croc hasn't shown up in over 100 chapters



Agreed.


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> Dude, you do realise that vegeta showed up halfway through the series. Plus one piece reached its halfway recently. Plus you can't expect them to be exactly similar.





Luffee said:


> Because I consider him a antihero. Antiheroes are one of the most powerful characters in shonen series and their growth is comparable to the main protagonist.



You based your entire argument on the anti-hero parallel.  Vegeta is the most prominent anti-hero in manga.  Without a direct comparison, that severely weakens your argument.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Trance said:
			
		

> Luffy = Zoro is bullshit.



That's debatable. Although I do believe probility of luffy>Zoro is higher but it's not 100%.

A serious luffy vs zoro or zoro vs sanji fight would be great. Like luffy vs usopp.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 19, 2013)

Disgusting, so=/=do


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## Quuon (Aug 19, 2013)

He stops at Ace.


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:


> You based your entire argument on the anti-hero parallel.  Vegeta is the most prominent anti-hero in manga.  Without a direct comparison, that severely weakens your argument.



*facepalm*

Yes I based my argument on the antihero parallel. But I didn't say they are suppose to have the same plot.

Luffy is based on goku. You saw z warriors surpassing goku. But when did you see a straw hat pirate surpassing luffy? It's because luffy is not an exact copycat of goku. Just like how croc isn't.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 19, 2013)

Quonn, you know Dragons Rioting 

Good Nigguh


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## Zorofangirl24 (Aug 19, 2013)

There are many people off these forums who think Zoro>= Luffy
its not an uncommon opinion


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## trance (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> That's debatable. Although I do believe probility of luffy>Zoro is higher but it's not 100%.



There's nothing that suggest they are currently equal.

They were equal in WP yes but ever since Enies Lobby, the gap has become obvious.



> A serious luffy vs zoro or zoro vs sanji fight would be great. Like luffy vs usopp.



Ehh, maybe.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 19, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> There are many people off these forums who think Zoro>= Luffy
> its not an uncommon opinion



could you list them for us?


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## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> *facepalm*
> 
> Yes I based my argument on the antihero parallel. But I didn't say they are suppose to have the same plot.
> 
> Luffy is based on goku. You saw z warriors surpassing goku. But when did you see a straw hat pirate surpassing luffy? It's because luffy is not an exact copycat of goku. Just like how croc isn't.



No, I mean that the only person stating that Croc is a prominent anti-hero is you.  I'm not arguing that he's not an anti-hero, just that he isn't prominent enough to get the automatic keep-up-with-the-protagonist anti-hero character progression.  Your argument relies on a trope.  There are no parallels linking Croc to this trope, or any prominent anti-hero in manga for that matter.  The only thing linking them is your opinion.  I respect your personal opinion, but it just doesn't fly in a debate based on manga feats, hype and portrayal.  

And I haven't facepalmed your arguments once in this thread, so don't think about disrespecting me.


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Aug 19, 2013)

Battousai said:


> could you list them for us?



Just google Zoro vs Luffy and click results other than narutoforums


----------



## jNdee~ (Aug 19, 2013)

So there are many dupes of you huh  good job


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## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:
			
		

> No, I mean that the only person stating that Croc is a prominent anti-hero is you. I'm not arguing that he's not an anti-hero, just that he isn't prominent enough to get the automatic keep-up-with-the-protagonist anti-hero character progression. Your argument relies on a trope. There are no parallels linking Croc to this trope, or any prominent anti-hero in manga for that matter. The only thing linking them is your opinion. I respect your personal opinion, but it just doesn't fly in a debate based on manga feats, hype and portrayal.



It was my personal opinion. Nor did I say my opinion has large support. But still it isn't a invalid opinion. And yes I am basing it on manga feats,hype and portrayal. You won't agree with it but that's why we have opinions.



			
				Gervin said:
			
		

> And I haven't facepalmed your arguments once in this thread, so don't think about disrespecting me.



Although I didn't meant it in a disrespectful way, if I were to go into this little detail, I could say the not having brain cell part was disrespectful. But I took it as friendly "in the heat of the moment" kind of thing. But i still apologise for what I said.


----------



## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> It was my personal opinion. Nor did I say my opinion has large support. But still it isn't a invalid opinion. And yes I am basing it on manga feats,hype and portrayal. You won't agree with it but that's why we have opinions.



This is why we debate.  This section of the forum is for debate.  Just stating your personal opinion does nothing to advance the debate, you need to provide manga evidence.  There is no manga evidence that Croc has kept up with the current M3 (Hell, I even personally think that he probably is on par with them, there is just absolutely no evidence to support it.  This is why I can't use current Croc in this thread.)  But anyway, this conversation has gotten way off topic.  Considering that our opinions technically don't even differ in the strictest sense, I'm laying off. 





Luffee said:


> Although I didn't meant it in a disrespectful way, if I were to go into this little detail, I could say the not having brain cell part was disrespectful. But I took it as friendly "in the heat of the moment" kind of thing. But i still apologise for what I said.



That wasn't directed at you, it was just a way to state the majority opinion.  I could have worded it better.  And don't worry about it, I just didn't want the thread to devolve into personal attacks.


----------



## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:
			
		

> This is why we debate. This section of the forum is for debate. Just stating your personal opinion does nothing to advance the debate, you need to provide manga evidence. There is no manga evidence that Croc has kept up with the current M3 (Hell, I even personally think that he probably is on par with them, there is just absolutely no evidence to support it. This is why I can't use current Croc in this thread.) But anyway, this conversation has gotten way off topic. Considering that our opinions technically don't even differ in the strictest sense, I'm laying off.



Bro. We're back to square one now.  Dragon doesn't have any feats that makes him Yonko/admiral level. But we know that he's that level because of hype and gut feeling.

Crocodile is the same(not same hype as dragon). From what we have seen from him I can easily conclude that he is M3 level just like how Dragon is Yonko/admiral level.


----------



## jNdee~ (Aug 19, 2013)

2013ers arguing 

Keep it up young bloods


----------



## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> Bro. We're back to square one now.  Dragon doesn't have any feats that makes him Yonko/admiral level. But we know that he's that level because of hype and gut feeling.
> 
> Crocodile is the same(not same hype as dragon). From what we have seen from him I can easily conclude that he is M3 level just like how Dragon is Yonko/admiral level.



Dragon has way more hype than Croc, though.  And no, I don't mean in absolutes, I mean relatively.  There is way more evidence placing Dragon at Yonko/Admiral (being titled most dangerous man in the world, amassing an army capable of taking over countries etc.) than placing post skip Croc on anybody's level.  He COULD be on the same level as the M3.  He could be Admiral level.  Or he could have gotten the crap kicked out of him by every other pirate he came across in the NW.  We have no way of knowing.  Hence why post-skip Croc is bad to try to use in evidence-driven debates.




Battousai said:


> 2013ers arguing
> 
> Keep it up young bloods



No argument.  Just friendly debate


----------



## Orca (Aug 19, 2013)

Gervin said:
			
		

> Dragon has way more hype than Croc, though. And no, I don't mean in absolutes, I mean relatively. There is way more evidence placing Dragon at Yonko/Admiral (being titled most dangerous man in the world, amassing an army capable of taking over countries etc.) than placing post skip Croc on anybody's level. He COULD be on the same level as the M3. He could be Admiral level. Or he could have gotten the crap kicked out of him by every other pirate he came across in the NW. We have no way of knowing. Hence why post-skip Croc is bad to try to use in evidence-driven debates.



I already said croc isn't dragon hype level. Dragon hype puts him at Yonko level. Crocodile feats/hype easily put him at M3 level.

Edit :- Let's just wait till we see him.


----------



## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

Luffee said:


> Edit :- Let's just wait till we see him.



I wholeheartedly agree.


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## jNdee~ (Aug 19, 2013)

What weaklings  you should use offensive/foul languages


----------



## Gervin (Aug 19, 2013)

Battousai said:


> What weaklings  you should use offensive/foul languages



I would get heated, but alas, I am but a noob.  I must adhere to the strict noob bedtime .


----------



## jNdee~ (Aug 19, 2013)

Disgusting


----------



## Unclear Justice (Aug 20, 2013)

Holy moly, those last five pages...

I?m glad I was asleep when all this happened.


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Aug 20, 2013)

Zoro clears.

Got to up my ranking on DeathPony's list


----------



## Vengeance (Aug 20, 2013)

Stops at Ace I guess


----------



## tupadre97 (Aug 20, 2013)

MYJC said:


> He is fully healed after each fight. Manga knowledge.
> 
> 1. Crocodile and Mr. 1
> 
> ...



Stops at jinbe. Loses with high diff.


----------



## Purple Tiger (Aug 20, 2013)

Zoro clears easily.


----------

