# The Phantom Menace vs The Force Awakens



## Wan (Jan 26, 2016)

Both movies were hyped to no end as continuing the saga of Star Wars.  Which do you think is the better movie, the better start to a trilogy?


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## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

can this poll be made public?

i'd appreciate that


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## Kuromaku (Jan 26, 2016)

TFA is better in that it's hard not to be better than TPM. They could have put that on posters advertising the former: "At least it's better than the prequels."-Random critic

But yeah, snark aside, TFA was decent in that it provided a workable, if flawed foundation for future movies (WTF is up with Abrams shoving in yet another way to reduce travel time after _Star Trek_?), while TPM was a meh "bump in the road" that failed to be a mere "bump."


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

Luc lookin to expand his ignore list


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## KidTony (Jan 26, 2016)

gwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat


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## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Luc lookin to expand his ignore list



who's the 1 tpm vote? srs


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

lol I couldn't tell you if I wanted to, b


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## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

but u do wanna tell me right?

i get that u cant but ud hook up a homie if u could?


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

**


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## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

wow 

power corrupts


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2016)

So when will this Star Wars hype will die? I am dealing with this from September


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## Zeta42 (Jan 26, 2016)

Jar Jar > Kylo Ren


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## RAGING BONER (Jan 26, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> who's the 1 tpm vote? srs



Gilgamesh without a doubt


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## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

good shout rb

it prolly is


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## MartialHorror (Jan 26, 2016)

"The Force Awakens"...

I'm all for subjectivity and the understanding that preferences are built in based on early cinematic experiences and reactions are rooted in emotions- which are unpredictable, but I cannot take the opinions of anyone who says otherwise seriously. 

You might LIKE "The Phantom Menace" more and to a point, I respect that, but it's a trainwreck in almost every way. "The Force Awakens" at worst, is mediocre- a formulaic, safe picture that's competent but unimaginative. Those don't necessarily reflect my own feelings, but I understand that argument. I do not understand how anyone could think "The Phantom Menace" is anything but sloppy. And I will rape you if that's how you feel. RAPE! ASK STUNNA! HE KNOWS!


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## Suigetsu (Jan 26, 2016)

well at least the phantom menace had nice music, new shit in it and tried to be something else. I wouldnt call it a trainwreck but certianly very very very poorly executed.
This is what happens when you stop making movies for 20 years and then come back to a super production.

This new one has nothing new, it's just a remake.


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## Swarmy (Jan 26, 2016)

This is predictable  TPM was horrible in every possible way


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

including music, Swarmy?


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2016)

I had no issue with Pod Racing or Maul


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

I'm also fine with those things. I completely understand most people's issues with them, but they don't bother me.


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## Gunners (Jan 26, 2016)

When I convinced people to watch the Star Wars films, I literally cannot bring myself to refer the prequels to them. When you convince someone to give the Star Wars films a chance, because they typically dislike Sci-Fi films, and they receive the originals positively, introducing them to the prequels seems like a tremendous waste of time: you'd just be undoing your efforts. 

The Force Awakens is a good stand alone film.


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

I recommend people watch the prequels just so they have context for their pop-cultural relevance and lampooning.


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## Swarmy (Jan 26, 2016)

The music was fine I admit


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## RAGING BONER (Jan 26, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I recommend people watch the prequels just so they have context for their pop-cultural relevance and lampooning.



youngest cat in the thread telling old fucks to watch shit that came out before he was born SMFH


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## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

i recommend people watch the plinkett reviews and not the prequels


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

I don't recall mentioning the ages of people I've recommended the Star Wars movies to 

:byakuya


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> i recommend people watch the plinkett reviews and not the prequels


watching the Plinkett reviews without having seen the prequels doesn't sound nearly as entertaining or enlightening


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## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

Stunna said:


> watching the Plinkett reviews without having seen the prequels doesn't sound nearly as entertaining or enlightening





nah

watch the reviews, folks, they dissect the movies in such minute detail that it's basically like watching them, but instead of soul-crushing ennui you get hilarity


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

nah, can't subscribe, fam


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

especially since that'll decrease the chance of them making their own opinions about things


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## RAGING BONER (Jan 26, 2016)

Stunna said:


> especially since that'll decrease the chance of them making their own opinions about things



except those opinions are about as close to fact as it gets regarding the prequels


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

RAGING BONER said:


> except those opinions are about as close to fact as it gets regarding the prequels


even if this were true, irrelevant


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## Seraphiel (Jan 26, 2016)

RAGING BONER said:


> Gilgamesh without a doubt



the other one is probably Vice.


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## Wan (Jan 26, 2016)

Suigetsu said:


> well at least the phantom menace had nice music, new shit in it and tried to be something else. I wouldnt call it a trainwreck but certianly very very very poorly executed.
> This is what happens when you stop making movies for 20 years and then come back to a super production.
> 
> This new one has nothing new, it's just a remake.



Funny, I don't remember a turncoat stormtrooper in the original trilogy



The Mad King said:


> I had no issue with Pod Racing or Maul



Pof racing is ok, but kind of pointless. It doesn't have much to do with the plot, such as it is.

Darth Maul comes off as cool on account of everything around him being so underwhelming. He does nothing except show up a couple times for the Jedi to fight. He has a cool design, does a few stunts -- that's it. Waste of potential; there's just no character there.


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

Weak villains usually don't bother me; more often than not, I don't particularly mind if they're little more than devices crafted to obstruct the protagonists (there are exceptions and whatnot, but I digress.)

I personally don't mind that Maul was only in, like, 5 scenes with minimal dialogue or characterization outside of his animalistic mannerisms. He at least had a cool design and partook in a memorable action sequence.

I would have killed him off at the end of TPM as well, though, tbf, I personally would have fleshed him out a wee bit more.


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## Wan (Jan 26, 2016)

He's not the worst part of the movie, but he doesn't do much to save it.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2016)

He wasn't killed off tho


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

For future reference, any time I'm talking about Star Wars, I'm strictly referring to live action cinematic canon


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## Mizura (Jan 26, 2016)

My family and I used to be huge Star Wars fans. We had the full video sets. Two of them. And then TPM happened.

I did not bother watching Star Wars II and III after that.

Will watch VIII and IX however.


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## Gunners (Jan 26, 2016)

George Lucas could have used Maul as a means of fleshing out the relationship between Master and Apprentice. Perhaps this could have been accomplished by merging his role in the story with Count Dooku. 

If the bond was developed from the first film, Sidious turning on him in III would have more weight.


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## Huey Freeman (Jan 26, 2016)

Should have went with Darth Jar Jar at least that twist would be a shock


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

Gunners said:


> George Lucas could have used Maul as a means of fleshing out the relationship between Master and Apprentice. Perhaps this could have been accomplished by merging his role in the story with Count Dooku.
> 
> If the bond was developed from the first film, Sidious turning on him in III would have more weight.


Yeah, the Dooku-Maul merge idea's a sound one.


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## RAGING BONER (Jan 26, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Should have went with Darth Jar Jar at least that twist would be a shock



a villain we could all truly hate


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## Suigetsu (Jan 26, 2016)

Gunners said:


> The Force Awakens is a good stand alone film.



pfft 

Literally nothing with a mary sue can be called a good film Gunners.



Wan said:


> Funny, I don't remember a turncoat stormtrooper in the original trilogy.


Oh wow right, that was so new wasnt it? it's the iconic thing about this movie, a stormtrooper gone rouge cause....??? Little grasping at straws man, there is nothing with this movie.


Rey should become the villian and be killed or something.



Stunna said:


> Yeah, the Dooku-Maul merge idea's a sound one.



Hmm I would had kept Maul and Palpatine as the sole Sith in the prequels. Dokuu should had been just a rouge Jedi and he should had never been linked or allied with Palpatine. Also make his lightsaber gold/yellow.


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## Wan (Jan 26, 2016)

Suigetsu said:


> pfft
> 
> Literally nothing with a mary sue can be called a good film Gunners.



Good thing TFA doesn't have a Mary Sue then


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## MartialHorror (Jan 26, 2016)

Suigetsu said:


> well at least the phantom menace had nice music, new shit in it and tried to be something else. I wouldnt call it a trainwreck but certianly very very very poorly executed.
> This is what happens when you stop making movies for 20 years and then come back to a super production.
> 
> This new one has nothing new, it's just a remake.



The problem I have with the music is that every scene is so fast paced that the score rarely has time to resonate. The only time it was allowed to stand out was when Darth Maul confronts the Jedi and Duel of the Fates blares.


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

A good movie with a Mary/Gary Stu protagonist is possible, yes.


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## Suigetsu (Jan 26, 2016)

Wan said:


> *Good thing TFA doesn't have a Mary Sue then*







MartialHorror said:


> The problem I have with the music is that every scene is so fast paced that the score rarely has time to resonate. The only time it was allowed to stand out was when Darth Maul confronts the Jedi and Duel of the Fates blares.


Which one TFA? or TPM?
The phantom menace has a really wierd pacing, again like I said it has a very poor execution and a bunch of ideas all crammed in there that ended up making it what it is. But you got to admit it had real pretty cool stuff. The naboo fighters, the gungan creatures, the pod racing, mos esley and even coruscant was cool to look at "yes it was muh blade runner in star wars" but it was fresh and new!



Stunna said:


> A good movie with a Mary/Gary Stu protagonist is possible, yes.


Usually a Mary/Gary Stu character is super insuferable. So you have left me in cliffhanger, would you kindley tell which one stunna?


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## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

I can't think of an example off-top, but a poorly characterized protagonist alone is not enough to make a good movie a bad one.


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## Gabe (Jan 26, 2016)

No competition the force awakens is much better. I did see the phantom menace in theaters when I was a kid and even then I did not think it was that good. I loved the original ones when I saw them as a kid on video and I like the force awakens reminded me of the first time I saw the originals. Great feeling


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## Suigetsu (Jan 26, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I can't think of an example off-top, but a poorly characterized protagonist alone is not enough to make a good movie a bad one.



yes it's true, a good movie is a good movie. Still it the main -su/stu- character would remain insuferable I think, unless you really took me by surprise.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 26, 2016)

Good movies can have Mary Sue's, as long as they're utilized efficiently. It also depends on your definition of Mary Sue's. Is the protagonist from "Twin Peeks" one? I think so, but he's interesting and the show is compelling. 



Suigetsu said:


> Which one TFA? or TPM?
> The phantom menace has a really wierd pacing, again like I said it has a very poor execution and a bunch of ideas all crammed in there that ended up making it what it is. But you got to admit it had real pretty cool stuff. The naboo fighters, the gungan creatures, the pod racing, mos esley and even coruscant was cool to look at "yes it was muh blade runner in star wars" but it was fresh and new!



TPM. I disagree with all of those things being cool, although the designs weren't bad. I understand your point to an extent, but I thought the pod racing was monotonously boring. Lucas even seems to be trolling his audience by having Jabba fall asleep during it.


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## Jeff (Jan 27, 2016)

Although Darth Maul remains my favorite Sith from the cinematic universe, simply because he isn't a punk bitch...Episode VII was at least 60% better.

Episode I isn't the worst in my book, but I hated Jake Lloyd so much.  I hated him so so much.  When I played with my action figures I would kill him every single time lol.  And for that reason alone, Episode VII is better.  I never loved a character more than I loved Rey.  I love strong women.  Rey basically gave me a boner the entire movie.


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

Maul isn't the only Sith who isn't a punk bitch.


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## MartialHorror (Jan 27, 2016)

I liked Darth Maul's design, but he's a living prop. I found it odd that an apprentice was able to hold off a Jedi Master AND apprentice- making me wonder if Yoda is lying about the dark sides power. lol. 

Everyone pees on Jake Lloyd, but he is the only actor in TPM who actually seems to have a personality and is enjoying being there. Everyone else is alarmingly flat, as if they can't get used to the green screen. Liam Neeson and Samuel Jackson certainly give steadier performances, but they don't look like they're enjoying themselves at all.


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

I mean, tbf, Vader was the apprentice in his Sith relationship, and he could easily fend off a couple Jedi.


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## Vault (Jan 27, 2016)

I was about to mention the Sith relations being Master and apprentice always.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 27, 2016)

>calling sheev a punk bitch

TIS TREASON THEN


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

I've never actually thought about Dale Cooper as a Gary Stu before you said that, Martial


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

I mean, I'm not sure if that's an entirely accurate label (I'mma rewatch soon anyway), but regardless, he's a great character.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 27, 2016)

the whole gary stu mary sue terminology should prolly be stopped before it infects how non-autistic people evaluate media


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

That reminds me of how Jay tried to claim that no one used the term Mary Sue before TFA came out


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## Vault (Jan 27, 2016)

That's fucking funny


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## Lucaniel (Jan 27, 2016)

Stunna said:


> p sure people have _always_ evaluated media by taking into account if the protag is a "Mary Sue"
> 
> they just haven't always used that terminology





Lucaniel said:


> the whole gary stu mary sue terminology



cool then we aint got a problem


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

Jay Bauman* for clarification.


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

Oh

Then that's just a dumb complaint regardless then


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## Lucaniel (Jan 27, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Oh
> 
> Then that's just a dumb complaint regardless then



why dis lil homothug always tryna beef

fucc up bitch

anyway protagonist-centered evaluation of literary texts, esp in terms of the expectation that the protagonist should be in some way flawed or limited specifically for the sake of realism, is a relatively recent idea. i'd reckon last 50-60 years. for the bulk of time that people wrote fictional narratives, that hasn't been anyone's preoccupation


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

No u

And yeah, I pointed out that people haven't _always_ judged protagonists the way they are now

But regardless

fuk you


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## Kuromaku (Jan 28, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> why dis lil homothug always tryna beef
> 
> fucc up bitch
> 
> anyway protagonist-centered evaluation of literary texts, esp in terms of the expectation that the protagonist should be in some way flawed or limited specifically for the sake of realism, is a relatively recent idea. i'd reckon last 50-60 years. for the bulk of time that people wrote fictional narratives, that hasn't been anyone's preoccupation



Huh, got any books or articles you'd recommend discussing this re-evaluation of writing for protagonists? I mean, I know Aristotle wrote a bit on hamartia and the tragic hero, but that the flawed protagonist in its modern iteration is indeed more modern than it seems is something I've never really read up too much on.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 28, 2016)

Kuromaku said:


> Huh, got any books or articles you'd recommend discussing this re-evaluation of writing for protagonists? I mean, I know Aristotle wrote a bit on hamartia and the tragic hero, but that the flawed protagonist in its modern iteration is indeed more modern than it seems is something I've never really read up too much on.



i haven't read anything which actively comments on how we've changed the way we evaluate protagonists. that's a super broad topic which would require referencing like 1000+...actually you've got the greek epics which predate anno domini...2000+ years of fictional narratives

i'm making that observation based on having read a lot of literary criticism/commentary spanning a large amount of time, that discusses everything from the illiad to jm coetzee, and having basically never noted, until very recently, people evaluating protagonists based on the now-conventional wisdom that they have to be flawed for realism

i did think of tragic flaws, but that's a whole different purpose because the old tragedies aren't trying to be realistic when they include those, they're trying to display the effect of destiny/divine intervention on human affairs while constructing a narrative to demonstrate a moral principle

anyway there's probably some commentary on it but it's such a broad subject which could be approached in so many diff ways that i'm not sure how i'd go about finding it through search engines or sth. i'd probably have to ask people who've read more criticism than me


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## Pilaf (Jan 28, 2016)

Zeta42 said:


> Jar Jar > Kylo Ren



[YOUTUBE]bz-SaMu8k3w[/YOUTUBE]


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