# Adult Naruto & Sasuke vs. Teen Naruto & Sasuke



## DaVizWiz (Aug 15, 2022)

Once and for all, did they achieve higher power



or grow weaker?



You decide.

Standard stips, full knowledge, no bijuu involved (in terms of BPS being applicable) and no Rikudo CT

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Perrin (Aug 15, 2022)

Teens win, they are undisputed protagonists. Adult forms are advanced secondary characters.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 4 | Winner 1 | Useful 1 | Neutral 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Aug 15, 2022)

each of teens eradicate borutoverse.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Kras Lee (Aug 15, 2022)

fused momoshiki got knocked out by vanishing rasengan that barely made a hole on the tree where 1 rinnegan juubidara tanked gate of death hits that made craters on the ground.




Onyx Emperor said:


> each of teens eradicate borutoverse.


this.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Capa13 (Aug 15, 2022)

Kras Lee said:


> fused momoshiki got knocked out by vanishing rasengan that barely made a whole on the tree where 1 rinnegan juubidara tanked gate of death hits that made craters on the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> this.


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## Kras Lee (Aug 15, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Once and for all, did they achieve higher power



only naruto did with baryon mode but teen naruto would eventually out last

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Aug 15, 2022)

Kras Lee said:


> only naruto did with baryon mode but teen naruto would eventually out last


i don't think that Baryon is a higher power. Yes, indeed, it's a new mode that makes boruto spsm in shame
but is it really strong in entire "naruto-boruto" meta? nah. EoS nukes are far more op than boruto feats and scaling.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sparks (Aug 15, 2022)

Common sense dictates the answer.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 15, 2022)

Kras Lee said:


> fused momoshiki got knocked out by vanishing rasengan that barely made a whole on the tree



This never happened.

Why are you lying?


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## Onyx Emperor (Aug 15, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> This never happened.
> 
> Why are you lying?


I think he's mistaking "kocked-out" with a knock-down which did happen and which was insanely shameful.


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## Kras Lee (Aug 15, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> This never happened.
> 
> Why are you lying?



knocked down*

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 15, 2022)

Kras Lee said:


> knocked down*



That's better  

Didn't realize knocking someone down constitutes damage though


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## Capa13 (Aug 15, 2022)

Onyx Emperor said:


> i don't think that Baryon is a higher power. Yes, indeed, it's a new mode that makes boruto spsm in shame
> but is it really strong in entire "naruto-boruto" meta? nah. EoS nukes are far more op than boruto feats and scaling.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Capa13 (Aug 15, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> That's better
> 
> Didn't realize knocking someone down constitutes damage though


It doesn’t. But when you are arguing some garbage BS like Teen Fate Bros > Adult Fate Bros, you have to use some braindead logic.


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## Onyx Emperor (Aug 15, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Didn't realize knocking someone down constitutes damage though


how to spot an ignorant cringe 101:

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Grinningfox (Aug 15, 2022)

Naruto and Sasuke win

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Useful 1


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## Kras Lee (Aug 15, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Didn't realize knocking someone down constitutes damage though



it seems it did for momoshiki


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## Capa13 (Aug 15, 2022)

Kras Lee said:


> it seems it did for momoshiki


Stop lying. Momo got back up and suffered 0 visible damage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kras Lee (Aug 15, 2022)

Capa13 said:


> Stop lying. Momo got back up and suffered 0 visible damage.



well imagine if he actually suffered dmg from a jutsu that is as strong as part 1 sakura slapping u xD

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 15, 2022)

Kras Lee said:


> it seems it did for momoshiki



Probably because he was off-guard...just like Madara was when an Obito on his last legs literally punched right through him without zero resistance

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## Kras Lee (Aug 15, 2022)

Capa13 said:


> Ahh so you’re trolling got it. Reported.



we all have seen what that rasengan did to the tree

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 15, 2022)

Capa13 said:


> Stop lying. Momo got back up and suffered 0 visible damage.



Technically, he DID take a bit of damage, but  it's important to note people are highly vulnerable when off-guard in both Naruto and Boruto. Juudara got pierced and punched by everyone whenever he weakened his guard. Throw in Boruto's wack scaling, and it all adds up. Juudara would have died if he ate that same Rasengan in Boruto

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Aug 15, 2022)

Capa13 said:


> ??? You realize you are embarrassing yourself right


what? No i don't, but you can go ahead and explain how a BELOW-TREE-LEVEL RASENGAN (scan here)
stuns fucking momoshitty and damages himand fucking hurts himDon't even talk back, this boruto guy is below tree level.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Kras Lee (Aug 15, 2022)

Onyx Emperor said:


> what? No i don't, but you can go ahead and explain how a BELOW-TREE-LEVEL RASENGAN (scan here)
> stuns fucking momoshitty and damages himand fucking hurts himDon't even talk back, this boruto guy is below tree level.



but he was caught off guard how do u explain this ?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Aug 15, 2022)

Kras Lee said:


> but he was caught off guard how do u explain this ?


Off guard? So he drops his durability by tens thousands? Dang he's dumb as fuck.
Not even bleach characters willingly drop their spiritual pressure that much unless they're post-hogyoku Aizen.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1


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## aiyanah (Aug 15, 2022)

teens win

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Kras Lee (Aug 15, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Probably because he was off-guard...just like Madara was when an Obito on his last legs literally punched right through him without zero resistance



this wasnt because of zetsu being attached to him ?


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## Onyx Emperor (Aug 15, 2022)

Kras Lee said:


> this wasnt because of zetsu being attached to him ?


shh, you're gonna totally destroy the worldbuilding for individuals that genuinely think that chojuro > zetsu > jj madara as an adequate powerscale, don't ruin their imaginary world.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## ARGUS (Aug 15, 2022)

adults should take it,
without BPS in play, teen sasuke would lose to adult sasuke, and if we assume that adult naruto stil has SPSM/RSM then there is no debate on his adult self being stronger

Reactions: Informative 1 | Optimistic 1


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 15, 2022)

Let’s get more votes in guys, we need this poll to reference the disparity in feat interpretations


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## Capa13 (Aug 15, 2022)

Onyx Emperor said:


> what? No i don't, but you can go ahead and explain how a BELOW-TREE-LEVEL RASENGAN (scan here)
> stuns fucking momoshitty and damages himand fucking hurts himDon't even talk back, this boruto guy is below tree level.


BZ > Madara.

Keep coping hard because of how much you hate Boruto. You guys are so cringe.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 15, 2022)

Adult have better feats, adult have better hype, adult have better control over their abilities

Debates on whether or not they lost or retained Hagoromos chakra after fighting Kaguya are also entirely moot considering we know they retain SOMETHING from them as they still have Rinnegan and SPSM

But even without that, their superior feats would merely indicate that, Hags chakra or not, they have surpassed their Teen selves WITH Hags chakra.

Which isnt a new concept.

Even steelmanning that they lost Hagoromos chakra (but still kept Hagoromos Senjutsu and Rinneganafter Part 2 that does nothing for the stance that "they got weaker as adults"

Assuming they lost said chakra merely means they grew beyond said amped level even after losing access to said amp 

And this is not a new concept in this series NOR is it a new concept to either Naruto or Sasukes development in particular.

Examples you say? Sure.

> Sasuke is stated to have vastly surpassed his CS2 Hebi levels with merely FKS 3T despite lacking any of the CS2 or White Snake power anymore
> Naruto is head and shoulders above his KN4 state in the PA despite lacking any of its Biju chakra in base/SM
> Kakashi is noted to have greatly surpassed his WA MS levels post war while lacking even a basic Sharingan
> Gaara is noted to have surpassed his Biju levels of sand manipulation by the WA while no longer a Jin
> Killer Bee is able to match and exceed the Raikages lariat when he previously needed his own cloak to even match it

Etc

Loads of examples of this shit

Naruto and Sasuke no longer retaining Hagoromos chakra is not an argument against their scaling considering their vastly superior feats

All it means is the following

"Hypothetical" Adult Naruto and Sasuke with Hags chakra given to them again > Adult Naruto and Sasuke w/o Hag chakra > teen Naruto and Sasuke with Hag chakra

Anything else is cope

Reactions: Agree 2 | Useful 1 | Disagree 1


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## Mawt (Aug 15, 2022)

Teen Fatebros shit diff those Boruto disgraces

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Aug 15, 2022)

Capa13 said:


> a fist killed Madara


Black zetsu's fist. Or you wanna downplay on divine tree busting lava rasenshuriken? lol.

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 15, 2022)

Kras Lee said:


> this wasnt because of zetsu being attached to him ?



No, it wasn't, as _Obito_ was in control.

Though Zetsu is the guy that lost to *Chojuro and a KCM Naruto clone*, so...not sure why you think that helps

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Goku (Aug 15, 2022)

Onyx Emperor said:


> what? No i don't, but you can go ahead and explain how a BELOW-TREE-LEVEL RASENGAN (scan here)
> stuns fucking momoshitty and damages himand fucking hurts himDon't even talk back, this boruto guy is below tree level.


You're using low-end scaling and even that could be justified since being caught off guard makes a huge difference. On guard Isshiki took a chakra arm barrage from Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto with no damage meanwhile an off guard Isshiki was sent flying and got a visible scratch by Base Naruto's kick.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## RaidenMeiTheShogun (Aug 15, 2022)

I give Adult Bros a victory.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Aug 15, 2022)

Goku said:


> You're using low-end scaling and even that could be justified since being caught off guard makes a huge difference. On guard Isshiki took a chakra arm barrage from Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto with no damage meanwhile an off guard Isshiki was sent flying and got a visible scratch by Base Naruto's kick.


stopped reading on "isshiki"
as if these 2 aren't different universes.


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## sabre320 (Aug 16, 2022)

Until the momoshiki movie the duo were treated with respect and were portrayed as stronger but by the end of boruto they have been nerfed to shit to the point they're just a pale imitation of their naruto selves so it's hard to give a consistent answer.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sage King (Aug 16, 2022)

Teen Naruto solos. With Teen Sasuke it's a mismatch 
@FlamingRain

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## dergeist (Aug 16, 2022)

Teens wreck.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Kras Lee (Aug 16, 2022)

Capa13 said:


> Ignore that guy. He has serious issues.



now thats reportable


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## Ludi (Aug 16, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Standars stips, full knowledge, no bijuu involved (in terms of BPS being applicable) and no Rikudo CT


With these stips it's definitely adult.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MYGod000 (Aug 16, 2022)

I don't see how a Mode Created by Kurama Mixing his own chakra with Naruto's chakra to create new power source is more powerful than Divine State of being that can only be unlocked naturally with the Help of Hagoromo. 


On Topic Teen Naruto and Sasuke wins they are clearly more powerful. The Seals has enough Chakra to create a moon. 


Adult Sasuke Normal CT wasn't even Island Size when he trapped Momoshiki.

Reactions: Like 1 | Kage 1


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 16, 2022)

Adults spank 
Adult sauske has mastered his rinnegan 
Hé baby shakes his kid self 
Baryon mode baby shakes his teen version

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## dergeist (Aug 16, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> I don't see how a Mode Created by Kurama Mixing his own chakra with Naruto's chakra to create new power source is more powerful than Divine State of being that can only be unlocked naturally with the Help of Hagoromo.
> 
> 
> On Topic Teen Naruto and Sasuke wins they are clearly more powerful. The Seals has enough Chakra to create a moon.
> ...



Brutal solo

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dattebayo20 (Aug 16, 2022)

The Last Sasuke's regular chidori destroy half a meteor


Adult Sauke uses Sunshin No Jutsu of the lightning chakra to raise his stats

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Raiken (Aug 16, 2022)

Teens are clearly more powerful. 

Kishi & Kodachi/Ikemoto intended for a nerf post-P2 Bros to allow Boruto Characters to be relevant a bit more quickly and believably. The anti-feats are everywhere, they're weaker. No agenda(which I get accused of from time-to-time), If I honestly believed they were the same or stronger, I would be fine with that. But they're really not.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Dattebayo20 (Aug 16, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Teens are clearly more powerful. Kishi & Kodachi/Ikemoto intended for a nerf post-P2 Bros to allow Boruto Characters to be a threat. The anti-feats are everywhere, they're clearly weaker. No agenda, If I honestly believed they were the same or stronger, I would be fine with that. But they're clearly not.


how?
can the teenage version of naruto win a taijutsu fight with an adult naruto?

naruto adults still have SPSM + BM (Kurama Modo, more expert) of 100% kurama + basic statistical increase when it becomes an adult body


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## Raiken (Aug 16, 2022)

Dattebayo20 said:


> how?
> can the teenage version of naruto win a taijutsu fight with an adult naruto?


Base Momoshiki was physically struggling with Kage levels. Juubito neg diffed a blitz attempt from KCM Minato...  


Dattebayo20 said:


> naruto adults still have SPSM + BM (Kurama Modo, more expert) of 100% kurama + basic statistical increase when it becomes an adult body


Teen Rikduou Naruto has:

50% Kurama
The 9 Bijuu Chakras = RSM - In addition to the RSM-Cloak
Hagaromo's Six Paths Power of Yang Seal/Chakra

Adult Naruto has:

100% Kurama
The 9 Bijuu Chakras = RSM - But no RSM-Cloak...
No Hags Chakra

So he got stronger in relation to going form 50 - 100% Kurama. In addition his Natural Base is probably stronger as an Adult too.

But he got weaker in relation to, no RSM Cloak & no 50% of Hagaromo's Chakra. And 50% of Hagaromo's Chakra is a greater boost than 50% of Kurama.

Then when you look at all his anti-feats as well... you can make a pretty fair assessment that Teen Rikudou Naruto >> Adult Naruto.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Raiken (Aug 16, 2022)

Kras Lee said:


> fused momoshiki got knocked out by vanishing rasengan that barely made a whole on the tree where 1 rinnegan juubidara tanked gate of death hits


 Yep...


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## Raiken (Aug 16, 2022)

Adult Naruto & Sasuke got schooled by Shin. Even if they were weakened, if they were still normally as strong or stronger than their Juudara/Kaguya incarnations. They would have just neg diffed blitzed him K.O'd him, Shin is weaker than MS Sasuke, even Edo Madara could lol blitz.

Kinshiki & Base Momoshiki got schooled by Mid Kage Tiers. Which is very damaging to the viewpoint of Adult Bros >> Teen Bros and they'll have to damage control it for the rest of time.

Transformed Momoshiki was knocked on his arse by Base Kid Boruto's tiny Vanishing Rasengan.

Delta pushed Adult Naruto to Mid Diff, yet Delta is stated to be comparable to Boro, who was defeated a team of 4 Jonin levels.

Pre-Fruit Kaguya almost killed Isshiki.


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## Dattebayo20 (Aug 16, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Base Momoshiki was physically struggling with Kage levels. Juubito neg diffed a blitz attempt from KCM Minato...
> 
> Teen Rikduou Naruto has:
> 
> ...


naruto still has 9 bijuu chakra flakes. he can use lava rasenshuriken. hagoromo before leaving, stated naruto is the meeting place of 9 bijuu, so the fragments of 9 bijuu chakra are still in naruto's body.

naruto adult : expert SPSM + (more expert in processing Kurama Modo) 100% Kurama Modo + chakra flakes of 9 bijuu + basic statistical increase when becoming an adult body and more skilled in processing the above modes, in the sense of bringing out the full potential of SPSM + 100% Kurama Modo

naruto teens : newbie SPSM + 50% Kurama Modo + chakra flakes 9 bijuu + hago yang chakra


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## Raiken (Aug 16, 2022)

Dattebayo20 said:


> naruto still has 9 bijuu chakra flakes. he can use lava rasenshuriken. hagoromo before leaving, stated naruto is the meeting place of 9 bijuu, so the fragments of 9 bijuu chakra are still in naruto's body.


I know, I said as much. 


Dattebayo20 said:


> naruto adult : expert SPSM + (more expert in processing Kurama Modo) 100% Kurama Modo + chakra flakes of 9 bijuu + basic statistical increase when becoming an adult body and more skilled in processing the above modes, in the sense of bringing out the full potential of SPSM + 100% Kurama Modo
> 
> naruto teens : newbie SPSM + 50% Kurama Modo + chakra flakes 9 bijuu + hago yang chakra


But he's clearly not better or stronger with RSM as an Adult, evidenced by the lack of the RSM-Cloak and all it's primary powers/features. No RSM-Cloak, No Gudoudama, No Flight, Chakra all over body again like KCM1/2, Adult Mode design is exactly the same as KCM2... and so on.

And some natural growth(Adult body) and development, in addition to gaining another 50% Kurama is not a greater boost than 50% of Ghostromo's Chakra imo.

So many people just seem to hate the idea of them getting weaker, but I think it's pretty clear Kishimoto was showing that they did.... he took Naruto back to an old level, had them job really badly on their first combat-introduction as Adults... Momoshiki & Kinshiki were struggling with Mid Kage levels.... the writing's on the wall but some people just aren't reading it because they just hate the idea of them being weaker so refuse anything that shows or suggests it.


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## Dattebayo20 (Aug 16, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Adult Naruto & Sasuke got schooled by Shin. Even if they were weakened, if they were still normally as strong or stronger than their Juudara/Kaguya incarnations. They would have just neg diffed blitzed him K.O'd him, Shin is weaker than MS Sasuke, even Edo Madara could lol blitz.
> 
> Kinshiki & Base Momoshiki got schooled by Mid Kage Tiers. Which is very damaging to the viewpoint of Adult Bros >> Teen Bros and they'll have to damage control it for the rest of time.
> 
> ...


ms sasuke > shin?
shin react to amenotejikara. shin is a modification. modifications usually have something bigger, shin almost avoids perfect susanoo blitz

you act like a kage in boruto doesn't improve and they do a teamwork

someone not wary of being used as a reference?

Again? someone not wary of being used as a reference? Juubidara was stabbed by a black zetsu, Juubidara was stabbed by obito which was even weakened


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## Raiken (Aug 16, 2022)

Dattebayo20 said:


> ms sasuke > shin?
> shin react to amenotejikara.


Which is simultaneously an anti-feat for Sasuke.

Read it with me, Shin reacted to Adult Sasuke's Amenotejikara.  


Dattebayo20 said:


> shin is a modification. modifications usually have something bigger, shin almost avoids perfect susanoo blitz


Shin's probably stronger Base VS Base definitely, but he has no away around a battle-experienced MS Sasuke beating him with Susano'o, Amatarasu & Enton combinations.


Dattebayo20 said:


> you act like a kage in boruto doesn't improve and they do a teamwork


Sure they improve. The Neo-Kage's excluding Gaara were Elite-Jonin level during the War(Darui may have been Low-Kage). Now I'd say based on their feats and powers, they're Mid Kage. Imo they've done nothing so far that would tell me they should be considered High Kage Tier, and definitely not Top Tier. Gaara might be High Kage now.


Dattebayo20 said:


> someone not wary of being used as a reference?
> 
> Again? someone not wary of being used as a reference? Juubidara was stabbed by a black zetsu, Juubidara was stabbed by obito which was even weakened


The only reason that worked on Juudara was because BZ was Kaguya's Will and knew how to trigger a change within Madara & the Juubi that would allow the Juubi(Kaguya) to take over Madara. BZ didn't straight up blow Madara away like Pre-Fruit Kaguya did to Isshiki.

And we already see Post-JJ Obito is capable of penetrating Juudara's durability when he's off-guard here, so that's nothing new.


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## Dattebayo20 (Aug 16, 2022)

Raiken said:


> I know, I said as much.
> 
> But he's clearly not better or stronger with RSM as an Adult, evidenced by the lack of the RSM-Cloak and all it's primary powers/features. No RSM-Cloak, No Gudoudama, No Flight, Chakra all over body again like KCM1/2, Adult Mode design is exactly the same as KCM2... and so on.
> 
> ...


because they are not weakened at all. where did you know the kage in naruto at the mid kage level? it's very noticeable the kage in boruto increases a lot of speed, the power of the garaa sand, and the cooperation

an adult person with a "level of sunshin no jutsu" can even exceed a person who uses the KCM buff 

and we know "sunshin no jutsu" is a way of increasing speed by using chakra. Depends on how expert the person is with sunshin no jutsu

naruto teenagers do not show high expertise in concepts like this. Naruto adults simply understand better, so naruto adults can maximize the combined SPSM + Kurama Modo 100%


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## Raiken (Aug 16, 2022)

Dattebayo20 said:


> because they are not weakened at all. where did you know the kage in naruto at the mid kage level? it's very noticeable the kage in boruto increases a lot of speed, the power of the garaa sand, and the cooperation


This is a really optimistic viewpoint, there's no logical evidence for them becoming drastically stronger like you claim. So where is Raikage Darui in your opinion, like KCM Minato's peer?



Dattebayo20 said:


> an adult person with a "level of sunshin no jutsu" can even exceed a person who uses the KCM buff





Dattebayo20 said:


> and we know "sunshin no jutsu" is a way of increasing speed by using chakra. Depends on how expert the person is with sunshin no jutsu


Sure. But we've never seen a normal person reach KCM levels of speed without some special power-up or mode. Which none of them have.


Dattebayo20 said:


> naruto teenagers do not show high expertise in concepts like this. Naruto adults simply understand better, so naruto adults can maximize the combined SPSM + Kurama Modo 100%


I feel like you're just saying stuff now without anything backing it up.


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## Subtle (Aug 16, 2022)

Their Adult versions will remain weaker, nothing is going to change the narrative.

Majority of Adult Naruto's strength comes from Kurama and Teen Naruto's power completely dwarfs Kurama.

Teen Naruto destroys both at the same time.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Dattebayo20 (Aug 16, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Which is simultaneously an anti-feat for Sasuke.
> 
> Read it with me, Shin reacted to Adult Sasuke's Amenotejikara.
> 
> ...





Raiken said:


> Which is simultaneously an anti-feat for Sasuke.
> 
> Read it with me, Shin reacted to Adult Sasuke's Amenotejikara.
> 
> ...


shin almost dodged the impromptu attack of perfect susanoo's slash, only hit the leg but managed to save his life. he will easily dodge sasuke's attacks. teleported to the back of sasuke's susanoo and tagged it, shin then controlled it, flying it up

taijutsu battle? shin stomps sasuke, then marks sasuke's body

your claim of kage in boruto at mid kage level is irrelevant, kage in boruto has good speed performance, better garaa sand strength. kage in naruto was blitzed by Juubito

it's a reflection of you who said ishiki was attacked from behind by kaguya, and momoshiki who didn't know that boruto's rasengan was still there


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## Dattebayo20 (Aug 16, 2022)

Raiken said:


> This is a really optimistic viewpoint, there's no logical evidence for them becoming drastically stronger like you claim. So where is Raikage Darui in your opinion, like KCM Minato's peer?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you just deny the fact mastering sunshin no jutsu at a better level can give you a better buff

like madara who has speed at the KCM level

naruto teenagers are very doubtful knowing the concept of concepts like this. adult naruto makes sense to know it, then 100% kurama modo becomes more leverage

like an adult sasuke who uses "sunshin no jutsu" using lightning chakra


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## Goku (Aug 16, 2022)

Onyx Emperor said:


> stopped reading on "isshiki"
> as if these 2 aren't different universes.


I agree, Isshiki is way stronger than Momoshiki and was still vulnerable to off guard attacks. It's funny how Momoshiki supposedly has tree level durability when Sasuke's sword didn't even faze him.


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## Onyx Emperor (Aug 16, 2022)

Goku said:


> I agree, Isshiki is way stronger than Momoshiki and was still vulnerable to off guard attacks. It's funny how Momoshiki supposedly has tree level durability when Sasuke's sword didn't even faze him.


Sasuke cannot cut a tree in boruto, that sucks


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## Goku (Aug 16, 2022)

Onyx Emperor said:


> Sasuke cannot cut a tree in boruto, that sucks


Momoshiki got up from Naruto's hits. The same person that tanked a moon splitting attack and even overpowered it. Sasuke also destroyed a meteor.


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## jesusus (Aug 16, 2022)

Teen Romeo and Juliet are younger and stronger compared to their adult counterparts who have gotten rusty as their former sensei, P1 Kakashi.


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## Onyx Emperor (Aug 16, 2022)

Goku said:


> The same person that tanked a moon splitting


Not the same person anymore


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## Callen (Aug 16, 2022)

Their adult incarnations far exceed their Juveniles in terms of power and wisdom. 



jesusus said:


> Teen Romeo and Juliet are younger and stronger compared to their adult counterparts who have gotten rusty as their former sensei, P1 Kakashi.


Don't forget Sasuke's accessing of another dimension. A Teenaged Sasuke with various Rikudou modification could not portal between worlds.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## Sage King (Aug 16, 2022)

One is shown fighting dimensional clones(which requires extra ordinary sensing), tanking Chidori(showing that he cannot be pierced by a Kusanagi)
Whilst the other one is getting pummeled by a shrunken fodder and getting pierced by a Kusanagi
I wonder who is more powerful


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## MYGod000 (Aug 16, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Adults spank
> Adult sauske has mastered his rinnegan



how does Mastering his Rinnegan change his stats he is still weaker?

both  Seals Yin/Yang seal have half the chakra to create the moon. 



Kishimoto Databook our right Stated all you need to create a moon is massive amounts of chakra

We Saw Adult Sasuke Attempt to trap Momoshiki in his CT which wasn't even close to Moon or Island size.



We see Adult Sasuke CT compared to Naruto  and the Base of The Divine Tree.




MHA massive fan said:


> Hé baby shakes his kid self
> Baryon mode baby shakes his teen version


That not true the Databook proves to you that Adult Sasuke isn't more powerful than Teen Sasuke especially if this is Sasuke with the Seal(which has half the Chakra needed to create the moon)  Half the power to create the moon are in both the Seals.

The only thing you've argued is that Adult Sasuke has a Better understanding of his Rinnegan...which is fine...but how is that going to help him in this battle?  We've only seen Sasuke Do one extra move with his Master Rinnegan which is create portals. Depending on how many people go with him in that portal drains him far down to the point Kages can preform relative to his level. That not even an option because the moment he tries that He is legit looses a huge chunk of chakra.



Yeah...because Baryon Mode a Move Created by Kurama is more powerful than Divine state of being a mode created by Hagoromo.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 16, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> how does Mastering his Rinnegan change his stats he is still weaker?
> 
> both  Seals Yin/Yang seal have half the chakra to create the moon.
> 
> ...


Naruto didn’t loose RSM as an adult 
So he still had it when ishiki was spanking him
Baryon mode > any other mode naruto has


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## MYGod000 (Aug 16, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Naruto didn’t loose RSM as an adult


He doesn't have RSM marking.


Even if We for argument Sake Say he still had RSM it not as powerful as it was when he was a Teen.

Madara already Stated  Base RSM was above the power Naruto used to defeat JJ Obito.


Boruto has Made it clear Naruto's most prominent chakra is Kurama.


MHA massive fan said:


> So he still had it when ishiki was spanking him
> Baryon mode > any other mode naruto has


Not really...again the form was created By Kurama using his own power and Naruto's to create a new power source and using Kurama as the Battery for that power source.

RSM depends on how powerful you are and is a divine State of being created by Someone from Isshiki clan.



Server Training is needed for this Form or the effects will be too small to make a difference.

We know your strength of SPSM is depended on your level or the effects of the boost will be too small.


The level Varies....RSM was stated to be above Kurama mode and could casually Kick away TSO. Not even BSM Naruto and BM Minato Combined efforts could do that.

Even if we saw Naruto still has RSM as adult the boost is much smaller since he no longer has Yang Seal which amped His Power and had half the chakra needed to create the moon.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 16, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> He doesn't have RSM marking.
> 
> 
> Even if We for argument Sake Say he still had RSM it not as powerful as it was when he was a Teen.
> ...


Outside of art style and Aesthetics is there any logical reason to believe naruto lost RSm while sasuke somehow kept his rinnegan ?
do entertain me though , curious to loose such a power and never have the author mention it or even imply it

would also be incredibly stupid to think kaguya feared momoshiki yet somehow KCm naruto and sasuke ( who strangely kept a rinnegan with only uchiha chakra apparently ) 
Could beat said person . If so dare I ask ? What was kaguya afraid of ? Someone several tiers below her ?


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## MYGod000 (Aug 16, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Outside of art style and Aesthetics is there any logical reason to believe naruto lost RSm while sasuke somehow kept his rinnegan ?


What do you mean?  Were told 9 Magatama on your back shows that you've unlocked RSM.

Adult Naruto no longer has those 9 Markings indicating he not RSM.



Adult Naruto marking on his back closes resembles Mix of Minato's and BM Naruto mode.



You can't Dispute this were told in the story That 9 Magatama proves you have RSM.  This is established. 





Madara Determined that Naruto unlocked RSM After seeing he had 9 Magatama unless you think there is another way please let me know. 




MHA massive fan said:


> do entertain me though , curious to loose such a power and never have the author mention it or even imply it


The fact that Naruto can't fly is also  reason

This was also shown in the momoshiki battle as well.




 Naruto wasn't flying at any point in the battle with Isshiki either. 






MHA massive fan said:


> would also be incredibly stupid to think kaguya feared momoshiki yet somehow KCm naruto and sasuke ( who strangely kept a rinnegan with only uchiha chakra apparently )
> Could beat said person . If so dare I ask ? What was kaguya afraid of ? Someone several tiers below her ?



Kaguya Feared anyone from her clan....

How would she know How powerful Momoshiki and Kinishiki was?  The Last time she saw them she didn't even have Rinne-Sharingan.

She doesn't know how powerful they are all she knew was that At one point in time they were above her in Rank. 

For all she knew they could have been Getting extremely powerful considering she lost a good chunk of her power when Hagoromo and Hamura was born...then she lost all her chakra when she was sealed for 1000 year. 


Sasuke Had Hashirama cells thank to Kabuto He also had a little bit of the Kuramam's Chakra Thank to Naruto giving him some chakra. 

He had both Chakra from previous Reincarnation and Current Reincarnation of Ashura. 

Sasuke was still going to unlock the Rinnegan only time will take how long it would take Since the process isn't  instant it took Madara 60 years To Finally awaken the Rinnegan naturally. 

Sasuke already had the Chakra Required to awaken the Rinnegan


Too bad Hagoromo already Stated Ashura Awakened RSM Without having 9 bijuu chakra







You don't need the 9 Bijuu or Kurama to awaken the Form that just one of the ways you can unlock the form. 

All i'm saying is he indeed still has the form It much weaker than it was before.  Considering He can't fly  nor is stated He has All the other Tailed Beast still inside him  in both the Manga and anime.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 16, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> What do you mean?  Were told 9 Magatama on your back shows that you've unlocked RSM.
> 
> Adult Naruto no longer has those 9 Markings indicating he not RSM.
> 
> ...



Madara never NATURALLY AWAKENED RINNEGAN. He was only able to because he had HASHIRAMA DNA
To awaken rinnegan you need senju and uchiha DNA
Or you need 6 path chakra. Madara never NATURALLY AWAKENED RINNEGAN. He was only able to because he had HASHIRAMA DNA
Therefore sasuke still has 6path chakra
Hence so does naruto
It’s really that simple
A lot of bla bla only for you to miss the point


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## Grinningfox (Aug 16, 2022)

The Adults 

Better hype


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## MYGod000 (Aug 16, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> To awaken rinnegan you need senju and uchiha DNA
> Or you need 6 path chakra. Madara never NATURALLY AWAKENED RINNEGAN. He was only able to because he had HASHIRAMA DNA



I know that and it still took Madara 60 years  after taking Hashirama's DNA to awaken Rinnegan.




MHA massive fan said:


> Therefore sasuke still has 6path chakra
> Hence so does naruto
> It’s really that simple
> A lot of bla bla only for you to miss the point


I didn't miss the point.

You missed the Key part where Kabuto Gave Sasuke Hashirama DNA otherwise how did Sasuke Survive Getting Stabbed in the heart?



He literally was saving Sasuke using Hashirama's DNA



Sasuke also had little bit of the 9 tails chakra as well which was mixed with Naruto's chakra.


We have proof that It doesn't go out it just shrinks so Sasuke had both Hashirama DNA+Naruto Chakra still thank to the 9 tails cloak.

I don't know why you're denying  this for

You still dismissed the key part of my argument that Naruto can't fly as an Adult which proves he no longer has SPSM since  SPSM users can fly.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 16, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> I know that and it still took Madara 60 years  after taking Hashirama's DNA to awaken Rinnegan.


Which means he still needed senju. I.e an uChiha  can’t do it by himself without senju or 6 path Chakra


MYGod000 said:


> I didn't miss the point.
> 
> You missed the Key part where Kabuto Gave Sasuke Hashirama DNA otherwise how did Sasuke Survive Getting Stabbed in the heart?


Ok. Hashirama dna was given . I can see that . How does this prove though that rinnegan which took less than 60 years was a result of hashirama dna and not 6 path chakra . Like you just said with only hashieama dna it took Madara 60 years . You are making my point here 



MYGod000 said:


> He literally was saving Sasuke using Hashirama's DNA
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See above. 
Not flying doesn’t mean one can’t do it anymore . Or did he say I can’t fly anymore ?
I mean using this logic sauske susanoo as an adult can no longer use chidori since adult sasuke never showed this


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## MYGod000 (Aug 16, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Which means he still needed senju. I.e an uChiha  can’t do it by himself without senju or 6 path Chakra


I never said he could nor was that my argument. I said it still took Madara  60 Years even After he stole Senju DNA. 


MHA massive fan said:


> Ok. Hashirama dna was given . I can see that . How does this prove though that rinnegan which took less than 60 years was a result of hashirama dna and not 6 path chakra . Like you just said with only hashieama dna it took Madara 60 years . You are making my point here



Madara Gained Six paths chakra Right after he Gained Senju DNA.


Indra disproves your argument  He had Six path chakra and still didn't get Rinnegan. 





MHA massive fan said:


> See above.
> Not flying doesn’t mean one can’t do it anymore . Or did he say I can’t fly anymore ?
> I mean using this logic sauske susanoo as an adult can no longer use chidori since adult sasuke never showed this


If he could fly why not use it...how can you say he is better when He can't fly and fight at the same time like he was doing as a Teen? 

You missed the key points.  *Six path Sage ability to float is unconsciously mastered by the user.*

It's not something you can just randomly forget  it mastered unconsciously  Naruto never attempted to fly in the Madara fight....he only realized he could float when Kaguya Forced them to her Dimension which had them flying above Lava. 

You're making excuses here those.  I'm talking about the Basic thing a Six path SM user can do and you're talking about Susanoo using Jutsu...we Saw Madara's Susanoo cast Jutsu when it summoned  Meteor in Battle.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 16, 2022)

@aiyanah if you dont change your vote to adults I wont give you head


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## aiyanah (Aug 16, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> @aiyanah if you dont change your vote to adults I wont give you head


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## aiyanah (Aug 16, 2022)

I'm actually appalled that so many man have voted for adult bro's.
You have no shame the lot of you

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 17, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> I never said he could nor was that my argument. I said it still took Madara  60 Years even After he stole Senju DNA.
> 
> 
> Madara Gained Six paths chakra Right after he Gained Senju DNA.
> ...


 indra was hago son and the guy who basically stated the uchiha gene pool. Ashura started the senju pool. Mixing those 2 DNA together would grant an uchiha hago power
The power of the rinnegan it’s that simple 
If one has rinnegan one has mixed both gene pools , one has 6 paths chakra . More evident is even the specific type of rinnegan one gets which is the one with Tomoe notice till Madara got juubi he only had a normal rinnegan pattern 
Sasuke keeping the rinnegan with tomoe proves he still has hago chakra


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## MYGod000 (Aug 17, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> indra was hago son and the guy who basically stated the uchiha gene pool. Ashura started the senju pool. Mixing those 2 DNA together would grant an uchiha hago power
> The power of the rinnegan it’s that simple
> If one has rinnegan one has mixed both gene pools , one has 6 paths chakra . More evident is even the specific type of rinnegan one gets which is the one with Tomoe notice till Madara got juubi he only had a normal rinnegan pattern
> Sasuke keeping the rinnegan with tomoe proves he still has hago chakra



You need to go back and Read the Manga again Hagoromo already explained everything.



Rinnegan Awakening already gives you Hagoromo's chakra.  Awakening Rinnegan=Hagoromo chakra and powers.

The Key Difference is Madara didn't have Yin Seal which had Hagoromo's Personal Chakra from it.





He gave them Those Seals which had His own chakra massive chakra and the power to create a moon seal so powerful Kaguya couldn't escape it.

They no longer have that power the lost it and it was given Back to Hagoromo after they Sealed Kaguya.


Your Logic is flawed Indra had Six path Chakra and he never awakened the Rinnegan.  Dispute  all his Advantages he had with Hagoromo's DNA and everything he died without ever gaining Rinnegan.

you Refuse to admit that...it's implied Indra died after Hagoromo's Death...so he was well in his 20-30s and still didn't get a Rinnegan even though he had Outsutsuki DNA.

Obtaining Rinnegan Naturally could take you Decades if not much longer  to awaken.

Naruto lost the Ability to heal people, Create a moon, and Has yet to show he could fly before he lost Kurama...

Burden of proof is on you to prove he didn't lose power when Canon shows he did.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Kage 2 | Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 17, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> You need to go back and Read the Manga again Hagoromo already explained everything.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anywayz me and 99% of the forum disagree 
They never lost hago power 
No point going round in circles

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Raiken (Aug 17, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Anywayz me and 99% of the forum disagree
> They never lost hago power
> No point going round in circles


No more like a group of extremely loud & vocal 10 members. 99% of the Forum my ass.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MYGod000 (Aug 17, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Anywayz me and 99% of the forum disagree
> They never lost hago power
> No point going round in circles



That your opinion but i asked you why can't Naruto fly?

Why Can't Naruto and Sasuke Create  a moon?

Why Can't Naruto Heal others and use COAT?

Teen Naruto and Sasuke can could do that but Adult Naruto and Sasuke can't...so how did they not lose power?

I'll accept that as you conceding here you can't tell me Adult Sasuke and Naruto no longer have the power to seal Kaguya, create a moon, or heal people like they did as Teen and say they didn't lose power... that a logical Fallacy.

If they have more power than why can't Sasuke Create a moon? the databook Stats all you need to create the moon is a massive amounts of chakra.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> No more like a group of extremely loud & vocal 10 members. 99% of the Forum my ass.


 
Sure 10 + years of rinnegan experience with the same chakra would make sasuke weaker 
You are smart


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## Ludi (Aug 17, 2022)

This thread made me remember why I'm not visiting this place as much anymore


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## Raiken (Aug 17, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Sure 10 + years of rinnegan experience


Yes


MHA massive fan said:


> with the same chakra


No


MHA massive fan said:


> sasuke weaker


Yes


MHA massive fan said:


> You are smart


Thanks

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Asura barracuda (Aug 17, 2022)

Adult Sasuke has MaStErEd his rinnegan.

Also Sasuke: Portals and Ameno go brrr.

Did you say Paths? 





Haha, did you see my super powerful Susanoo as an adult?

Did you see me battle that tree level tornado with a *Perfect Susanoo?*

although I got pushed back a little........yeah man. I was a boss!?





Also did you see me fight Shin Uchiha, use Amenotojikara and was even unable to blitz him with my speed?

Did you see my wife Sakura come save my ass from further embarrassment?


Also did you see me pull the Perfect Susanoo against Shin Uchiha and be unable to kill him still.

Shit man, that dude was really strong am I right ?

Guys?

I'm not the only one who thinks he was strong right?

Answer meeeee!!!!........Please, I know he was strong, there's no way he wasn't strong.


Adult Naruto has MaStErEd his power and Farrrr surpassed Kaguya.........



Ma Boi Naruto was so weak that Momoshiki and Kinshiki didn't even bother ganging up on him like they did a very fucking old man Bee.


Bee and Eight tails greater than Kaguya confirmed.





And damn, who knew that mastering your power and getting more powerful meant losing flight? Goudama and Six paths Senjutsu marking?  Six paths sensory too? What about Durability?

Man, teach me this method of upgrade.





And the Momoshiki that's greater than Kaguya was fed to FUCKING DARUI as food and plaything.

Beaten by Base Boruto and straight up defeated in hand to hand combat by base Boruto too.




I don't even wanna go THAT FAR and bring Urashiki into this because no way you guys would survive this since he's canon too.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Yes
> 
> No
> 
> ...


Strange to keep a rinnegan with sharinfan tomoe without 6 path chakra 
When only hago , juubi Madara , kaguya had such an eye 
But hey cope and head canon are where you reside so it’s fine 
Interesting to defeat someone kaguya was afriad of only to be several tiers weaker than when they beat kaguya


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## Raiken (Aug 17, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Strange to keep a rinnegan with sharinfan tomoe without 6 path chakra


He still has his own Indra+Ashura=Hagaromo Chakra(Six Paths Chakra) as an Adult. Just not the 50% Hagaromo Chakra from Hags himself which was the Seal.


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## AnbuHokage63 (Aug 17, 2022)

Teen Naruto solos

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## dergeist (Aug 17, 2022)

Ludi said:


> This thread made me remember why I'm not visiting this place as much anymore



Reality slapping you in the face (Adults are weaker) would do that to a person

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ludi (Aug 17, 2022)

dergeist said:


> Reality slapping you in the face (Adults are weaker) would do that to a person


Nah it's mainly the pointless discussion from both sides trying to convince the other side

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> He still has his own Indra+Ashura=Hagaromo Chakra(Six Paths Chakra) as an Adult. Just not the 50% Hagaromo Chakra from Hags himself which was the Seal.


Naruto already had the 9 bijuu chakra before hago ever came into the picture 
Why didn’t he have RSM against obito then 
Seeing that they had already given him chakra then ?


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## Raiken (Aug 17, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Naruto already had the 9 bijuu chakra before hago ever came into the picture
> Why didn’t he have RSM against obito then
> Seeing that they had already given him chakra then ?


He was still missing 8 & 1 Tail Chakra. Which was specifically highlighted as what Naruto needed a couple of times.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> He was still missing 8 & 1 Tail Chakra. Which was specifically highlighted as what Naruto needed a couple of times.


Please show me this being highlighted mentioning Naruto needed it 
Then again when did he get 1 and 8 hago definitely  didn’t give that to him


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## Raiken (Aug 17, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Please show me this being highlighted mentioning Naruto needed it
> Then again when did he get 1 and 8 hago definitely  didn’t give that to him


Read that thread I linked. It shows Obito getting 1 & 8 from Madara, giving them to Naruto and it being stated in Naruto's inner world.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Read that thread I linked. It shows Obito getting 1 & 8 from Madara, giving them to Naruto and it being stated in Naruto's inner world.


I did 
And how does any of that somehow imply he lost the other 8
Why would he and why would said loss not be stated 
None of that also explains why sasuke kept an eye ONLY THOSE LINKED TO Ototsuki have . The rinnegan with the tomeo , that’s not a result of being only uchiha . If we are saying he no longer has hago chakra why does sasuke still have an eye? Typified by it only being in one eye as well , I mean if it was something naturally acquired through skill or time he would have in both eyes no ?


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## Raiken (Aug 17, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> I did
> And how does any of that somehow imply he lost the other 8


How did you get this? I didn't say he lost the other 8.


MHA massive fan said:


> Why would he and why would said loss not be stated


He didn't.


MHA massive fan said:


> None of that also explains why sasuke kept an eye ONLY THOSE LINKED TO Ototsuki have . The rinnegan with the tomeo , that’s not a result of being only uchiha .


He has Hashiramas Cells, which results in Indra+Ashura Chakra. Which is Six Paths Chakra/Rinnegan.


MHA massive fan said:


> If we are saying he no longer has hago chakra why does sasuke still have an eye?


See above.


MHA massive fan said:


> Typified by it only being in one eye as well , I mean if it was something naturally acquired through skill or time he would have in both eyes no ?


Sasuke didn't receive a large quantity of Hashirama's Cells. Which could have caused an imbalance in the Yin+Yang, resulting in a single Tomoe-Rinnegan as opposed to Dual Rinnegan.


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## MustardPN (Aug 17, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> You need to go back and Read the Manga again Hagoromo already explained everything.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How would Indra have Six Paths chakra? He had his own Indra chakra and that chakra needed to be mixed with Ashura chakra to create Six Paths chakra. He is only one of the components of 6P chakra. If he had it he would awaken the Rinnegan


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## PFM18 (Aug 17, 2022)

It's embarrassing that this is a close poll


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## Raiken (Aug 17, 2022)

PFM18 said:


> It's embarrassing that this is a close poll


I know it is. Teens are clearly stronger.


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## PFM18 (Aug 17, 2022)

Onyx Emperor said:


> each of teens eradicate borutoverse.


How are you so clueless

Reactions: Funny 1


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## PFM18 (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> I know it is. Teens are clearly stronger.


There's literally no evidence of that


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## Raiken (Aug 17, 2022)

PFM18 said:


> There's literally no evidence of that


That's a lie.

These's tonnes of evidence. Hence the past 7 years of debate.


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> How did you get this? I didn't say he lost the other 8.
> 
> He didn't.
> 
> ...


You got me confused 
Do the adults have the 6 paths chakra or not 
Cuz I am arguing  they do 
And if they do they are evidently stronger than their younger counterparts


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## Andrew10458 (Aug 17, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> You got me confused
> Do the adults have the 6 paths chakra or not
> Cuz I am arguing  they do
> And if they do they are evidently stronger than their younger counterparts


Nowadays he’s saying they have some form of it just not on the lvl of the their war arc versions


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## PFM18 (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> That's a lie.
> 
> These's tonnes of evidence. Hence the past 7 years of debate.


No, this is just the equivalent of people in Dragon Ball saying that SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Gotenks and Gohan at the end of the Buu arc; its been a debate for years and years but one side has always had laughably stupid arguments and everyone who knows anything about it knows that the adult characters are OBVIOUSLY far superior.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## LawdyLawd (Aug 17, 2022)

They low diff with kaguya bfr strategy 

restrict bfr and they high diff


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## Raiken (Aug 17, 2022)

PFM18 said:


> No, this is just the equivalent of people in Dragon Ball saying that SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Gotenks and Gohan at the end of the Buu arc.


No its not because SSJ3 Gotenks & Ultimate Gohan were clearly much stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

While in Naruto it is no where near as clear.


PFM18 said:


> its been a debate for years and years but one side has always had laughably stupid arguments


Nice bait attempt, but it's generally a meaningless comment. You guys have been on hard damage control for years...

1. Naruto & Sasuke's performance against Shin.
2. Base Momo & Kinshiki being out-performed by Kage levels.
3. Transformed Momo getting put on his arse by a tiny Rasengan from Kid Base Boruto.
3. Delta pressing Naruto while Boro who was considered more dangerous than Delta was defeated by 4 Jonin levels.
4. Post-Fruit Kaguya being portrayed as above Isshiki.
5. Adult Naruto's greatest source of power being confirmed multiple times to be Kurama.
6. Adult Naruto being confirmed to not be "super-human" anymore due to the loss of Kurama.
7. Points 5 & 6 together confirmed that Naruto did not retain the half of Hagaromo's Chakra from P2. As everyone on your side thought he had half of Hagaromo's Chakra still and that's where the whole God Tier Base Naruto thing came from... then you guys started throwing Retcon and Bad-Writing around in damage-control when it proved to be a load of bollocks.

You guys are fighting a War you already lost. But refuse to let it end..


PFM18 said:


> and everyone who knows anything about it knows that the adult characters are OBVIOUSLY far superior.


A meaningless statement.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## MHA massive fan (Aug 17, 2022)

Andrew10458 said:


> Nowadays he’s saying they have some form of it just not on the lvl of the their war arc versions


Which is entirely baseless 
As some form wouldn’t still give a rinnegan only juubi jins and kaguya possessed


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 17, 2022)

aiyanah said:


> I'm actually appalled that so many man have voted for adult bro's.
> You have no shame the lot of you


No head for you then

Matter of fact, you better not be home when I get off work

Better have all your stuff moved out


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 17, 2022)

PFM18 said:


> No, this is just the equivalent of people in Dragon Ball saying that SSJ3 Goku was stronger than Gotenks and Gohan at the end of the Buu arc; its been a debate for years and years but one side has always had laughably stupid arguments and everyone who knows anything about it knows that the adult characters are OBVIOUSLY far superior.


This is exactly the case

Theres 0 evidence the bros got weaker (prior to losing Rinnegan and Kurama obviously) 

It is 100% conjecture and inference at best by the opposition that they got weaker 

Theres not a statement ANYWHERE in ANY MEDIUM that says theyve lost ANY POWER OR ABILITIES.

The best theyve got is Kurama stating JUST NARUTO, and NOT SASUKE, had his combat sense, and NOT STATS OR ABILITY, dull a little bit.

Thats it

Thats all theyve got

And they stretch that into a Juubi+ sized nerf cuz their opinions are garbage

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Aug 17, 2022)

PFM18 said:


> How are you so clueless


i don't take clues from borutowankers i guess


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> You guys have been on hard damage control for years...


Its odd to me how the side of this debate that has to pretend that Kishis officially canon works in the films arent canon…And also the side that has to invent forms for Naruto to have in order to justify his own biased scaling…Has the gall to talk to other people about “damage control”

At any point do you have plans on being honest with yourself regarding these immense and unfounded personal biases?

You are quite literally stacking the deck in your favour by pretending you have the authority to declare a source Kishi worked on and edited himself as canon or not. And even with this, your opinions still dont work.

Especially since I got a concession out of you a few days ago that the adults have god tier feats  

Youve got nothing anymore dude

Youre just barking for the sake of it


Raiken said:


> Naruto & Sasuke's performance against Shin.


Are explained due to their nerfs not taking him seriously 

And them tanking what he does anyway 

Not an antifeat 

And again playing the “but their low ends” card is beyond a stupid strategy when Madara was oneshotted and entirely incapped by Black Zetsu

Even before Kaguyas chakra started to funnel into him btw

And unlike the fate bros, Madara doesn’t start the encounter nerfed…Hes at his strongest when BZ does that to him.

Why do you do this?

Why have you done this for years?

How many times do people need to point out the sheer hypocrisy of your beliefs and practices before you realize they dont have a shred of merit?

If Youre going to genuinely cite a nerfed Naruto and Sasukes feats of tanking shit from a Kage level as an antifeat that drops them out of God tier, thats totally fine. Its wrong but fine.

All you’ve gotta do is cite Madaras own lowends just as honestly, and have him fall out of god tier as well. As his low ends are far more embarrassing and serious


Raiken said:


> Base Momo & Kinshiki being out-performed by Kage levels.


This literally never happens 

Ever

Momo holds off Naruto, Gaara and Darui totally fine

Kunshiki slaps tf out of Kuro and Chojuro the second they dont have Sasuke helping.

This has also been pointed out to you before and you do nothing but stonewall.

Also…Prove the Kage are mere Kage level after 20 years of training  




Raiken said:


> Transformed Momo getting put on his arse by a tiny Rasengan from Kid Base Boruto.


Madara died to black zetsus hand

And had his top speed reacted to by Rock Lee

I can keep going but by now anyone whos seen you make these citations knows you and they have no merit in them. 



Raiken said:


> Delta pressing Naruto while Boro who was considered more dangerous than Delta was defeated by 4 Jonin levels.


Delta is compared to Boro IN TOTALITY and Boros power VARIES AND IMPROVES 

Stuffed you on this argument like a week ago too

And ya ran and stonewalled this too


Raiken said:


> Post-Fruit Kaguya being portrayed as above Isshiki.


What’s wrong with this?

Post fruit Kaguya > WA Kaguya > anything else in WA too bud

Also this isnt true anyway

We dont know nearly enough about Kaguya/Isshiki to call whos stronger 


Raiken said:


> Adult Naruto's greatest source of power being confirmed multiple times to be Kurama.


Greatest source of chakra

Slapped you on this a week ago too

And ya ran and stonewalled this too


Raiken said:


> Points 5 & 6 together confirmed that Naruto did not retain the half of Hagaromo's Chakra from P2.


Actually no it doesnt 

Unless you can prove the seals had > Kurama chakra content specifically 

Which you cant

But regardless…Ive steelmanned this point for you before and still slapped you on your conclusion here. And that was mere days ago.

And ya ran and stonewalled this too


Raiken said:


> You guys are fighting a War you already lost.


Hmu when you can admit The Last is canon and Naruto doesn’t have “Super Saiyan 2 SPSM chakra mode” and we can talk about whos already lost this debate

You havent had (and still dont have) a citation that even HINTS at Naruto getting weaker since the war ended. Its 100% your headcanon.

You unironically try to cite Naruto losing Kurama as evidence for your stance hes weaker even WITH Kurama

Which you obviously cant do

Youve got nothing and you know it

Its why you get so heated so easily on this topic when nobody buys what youre selling.

All you boys can do is stonewall what ACTUALLY IS GIVEN TO US ON PANEL, and then run away from people who give you proper citations. While having none to offer in return.

Just butchered, dishonestly represented metrics and feats where if you applied even an OUNCE of that same logic towards Madara even ONCE? Using your logic hed be tiers weaker than fucking pre war Naruto or Sasuke


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 17, 2022)

Onyx Emperor said:


> i don't take clues


We noticed

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 17, 2022)

I still remember Juudara kicking SM Minato into Gaara and neither one demonstrated even the slightest injury


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## aiyanah (Aug 17, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No head for you then
> 
> Matter of fact, you better not be home when I get off work
> 
> Better have all your stuff moved out


there's nothing of value you can send to me in a response.
you one of these filthy adult bro scalers


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## Goku (Aug 17, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Strange to keep a rinnegan with sharinfan tomoe without 6 path chakra
> When only hago , juubi Madara , kaguya had such an eye
> But hey cope and head canon are where you reside so it’s fine
> Interesting to defeat someone kaguya was afriad of only to be several tiers weaker than when they beat kaguya


Kaguya's scroll also contained a *warning* about Momoshiki and Kinshiki and she even knew the date of their invasion, so it's pretty obvious that she was preparing for them. Furthermore, Momoshiki and Kinshiki already knew about Kaguya's Dimensions, so it's possible that Kaguya already had a Rinnesharingan before she ate the chakra fruit.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 17, 2022)

aiyanah said:


> there's nothing of value you can send to me


Thats not what you said when I gave you my newdz

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Aug 17, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> We noticed


like shut up, this dude's agreeing about comparing buritto to DBZ when PFM's comparison is utter trash.
Lemme fix it for him and for you.
Let's take Frieza vs ssj Goku. Imagine if SUDDENLY yamcha and tien started beating the hell out of Frieza.
That's what happened after Sauce fought Kinshitty and then Kurotsuchi and Chojuro PUMMELED that trash.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Raiken (Aug 17, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Its odd to me how the side of this debate that has to pretend that Kishis officially canon works in the films arent canon…And also the side that has to invent forms for Naruto to have in order to justify his own biased scaling…Has the gall to talk to other people about “damage control”


The Boruto Anime & Manga pretty much re-did the *entire* Momoshiki fight. The Movies are out-dated and non-canon to the Boruto Manga, and that's clear to anyone.

You seen Toneri in Boruto Manga??

External Kurama??

Kurama in his physical form writing the moon outside of Naruto???

Yeah dude, totally canon. The Last wreaked of the scent of Perriot Movie/Filler.



WorldsStrongest said:


> At any point do you have plans on being honest with yourself regarding these immense and unfounded personal biases?


No need to, reason above.


WorldsStrongest said:


> You are quite literally stacking the deck in your favour by pretending you have the authority to declare a source Kishi worked on and edited himself as canon or not.


People understand the concept of different mediums well enough in the DB section, why don't you here?


WorldsStrongest said:


> Especially since I got a concession out of you a few days ago that the adults have god tier feats


At their maximum output they have some Low-God Tier feats. Overall, they're just shy of outright God Tier, who I consider Controlled-Juubito to be it's weakest member.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Youve got nothing anymore dude


Meaningless comment.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Youre just barking for the sake of it


Pretty sure that's you when you accuse your opposition of having* 0 evidence and garbage opinions* when in fact...

The evidence...


Your whole strategy is always discredit who you're talking to and making false claims/boasts with complete confidence, without saying anything of actual substance.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Are explained due to their nerfs not taking him seriously
> 
> And them tanking what he does anyway
> 
> Not an antifeat


Shin reacted to Sasuke's speed and forced him to use Amenotejikara, and reacted to that as well...

Pretty sure that's an anti-feat compared to his previous performance against Madara & Kaguya.


WorldsStrongest said:


> And again playing the “but their low ends” card is beyond a stupid strategy when Madara was oneshotted and entirely incapped by Black Zetsu


Black Zetsu was an ally of Madara, his own will. He never expected to get betrayed by him, ever.

And BZ is Kaguya's Will. The only reason it worked is because the Juubi IS Kaguya, and did something that allowed THE JUUBI(Kaguya) to take over Madara from WITHIN, like it almost did with Obito. Who bloated up in the exact same way.
*
Spoiler:  







*

Kaguya(The Juubi) took over Madara, BZ didn't one-shot him, hugely disingenuous claim.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Even before Kaguyas chakra started to funnel into him btw


Kaguya was already in him...


WorldsStrongest said:


> And unlike the fate bros, Madara doesn’t start the encounter nerfed…Hes at his strongest when BZ does that to him.


See above.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Why do you do this?
> 
> Why have you done this for years?
> 
> ...


They have plenty of merit, stop acting like the opposing viewpoint has no merit, when it clearly does. You can believe what you want just stop with the lies.

Madara's low-ends are way more respectful than what happened with Momoshiki & Kinshiki. By a country-mile.

And the BZ thing doesn't count for reasons I've already provided above. You didn't see Juudara struggling with Kage Tiers, while Controlled-Juubito neg diffed KCM Minato's blitz attempt.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Momo holds off Naruto, Gaara and Darui totally fine


Naruto was barely involved. 90% of the encounter was Darui & Gaara chasing him while he ran away with visible sweat and worry on his face on panel.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Kinshiki slaps tf out of Kuro and Chojuro the second they dont have Sasuke helping.


That's completely wrong. They school Kinshiki, pretty embarrassingly so. Most of the exchanges are Kinshiki getting out-played, agian, again and again.


WorldsStrongest said:


> This has also been pointed out to you before and you do nothing but stonewall.


I don't respond to you, because most of the time you're toxic with me. Everyone else I respond to.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Also…Prove the Kage are mere Kage level after 20 years of training


Come on man, i know you're better than getting on the... "The Neo-Kage's are Founder level train..." haha.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Madara died to black zetsus hand


See above.


WorldsStrongest said:


> And had his top speed reacted to by Rock Lee


In no way was his "top-speed" reacted to by Lee, this is super disingenuous.


WorldsStrongest said:


> I can keep going but by now anyone whos seen you make these citations knows you and they have no merit in them.


As I said, the showings of Momo & Kinshiki are far more worthy of downplay than what happened with Juudara.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Delta is compared to Boro IN TOTALITY and Boros power VARIES AND IMPROVES
> 
> Stuffed you on this argument like a week ago too


You've done no such thing, this ties into that whole false claim thing you like to do a lot.


WorldsStrongest said:


> And ya ran and stonewalled this too


Again - "I don't respond to you, because most of the time you're toxic with me. Everyone else I respond to." Literally everyone else here.


WorldsStrongest said:


> What’s wrong with this?
> 
> Post fruit Kaguya > WA Kaguya > anything else in WA too bud
> 
> ...


We don't know for certain that's true. But it doesn't make a lot of sense for Kaguya to betray and almost kill Isshiki for the entire purpose of obtaining the Chakra Fruit for herself instead of Isshiki, and then still being weaker than him..... lol


WorldsStrongest said:


> Greatest source of chakra
> 
> Slapped you on this a week ago too


No you didn't, and never have.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Actually no it doesnt
> 
> Unless you can prove the seals had > Kurama chakra content specifically
> 
> Which you cant


Oh what's this?? So now you're saying that 50% Hagaromo's Chakra is less than an additional 50% of Kurama's Chakra.




WorldsStrongest said:


> But regardless…Ive steelmanned this point for you before and still slapped you on your conclusion here. And that was mere days ago.
> 
> And ya ran and stonewalled this too


Same old baseless claims.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Hmu when you can admit The Last is canon and Naruto doesn’t have “Super Saiyan 2 SPSM chakra mode” and we can talk about whos already lost this debate


Anyone with basic deduction skills knows what Naruto has as an Adult, and what he had as a Teen. Are not the exact same state.

Kishimoto didn't change back to* KCM2's exact style* for no reason.






I can see why people think the lack of Sage Pigmentation is a sign of RSM usage and I agree it is.


However every time something happens regarding RSM, we get...




*The Manga very clearly showed us the signs of using RSM. RSM Seal Pattern on back & the Gudoudama's.*






It's likely Naruto still has *some-level of RSM*. *But they're clearly not the same state.*

Kishmoto made it perfectly clear with *his introduction of Adult Naruto's powers* in the Scarlet Spring Gaiden. *Showing us he was using a state exactly the same as KCM2 again*, except with the lack of Sage Pigmentation in relation to the Sage element.

*Supporting this viewpoint are his complete loss of - Iconic RSM Seal Pattern, Gudoudama, Flight & the No-Chakra on Skin trait.*

So yeah, he still has RSM, but a very limited variation of it compared to what he had as a Teen.

It's not made up or head canon, no matter how much you want to believe it is. It's literally Manga-Fact.



WorldsStrongest said:


> You havent had (and still dont have) a citation that even HINTS at Naruto getting weaker since the war ended. Its 100% your headcanon.


Just lies. But okay.


WorldsStrongest said:


> You unironically try to cite Naruto losing Kurama as evidence for your stance hes weaker even WITH Kurama
> 
> Which you obviously cant do


You're completely missing the point. 

Your guys argument for ages was that Naruto & Sasuke were God Tier in Base because of Hagaromo's Chakra.

Then Naruto lost Kurama, and was weak as shit in Base. Further supporting the idea, along with all the other things that support it, that Hagaromo's Chakra was not retained as Adults.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Youve got nothing and you know it


Pretty sure most of this post of yours is nothing. Hot air and false claims.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Its why you get so heated so easily on this topic when nobody buys what youre selling.


No I only get heated with you because you're toxic 99% of the time with me. This post you've been relatively chill, hence my response to you. We'll se if you can keep it up in your response.


WorldsStrongest said:


> All you boys can do is stonewall what ACTUALLY IS GIVEN TO US ON PANEL, and then run away from people who give you proper citations. While having none to offer in return.


Baseless claim. We've offered tonnes of reasonable and logical evidence, you just choose to ignore it because it doesn't align with your viewpoint.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Just butchered, dishonestly represented metrics and feats where if you applied even an OUNCE of that same logic towards Madara even ONCE? Using your logic hed be tiers weaker than fucking pre war Naruto or Sasuke


Another baseless claim.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 2


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## aiyanah (Aug 17, 2022)

professor raiken opening class today, now he got scans of madaderp and obiderp too.
he's connected too many dots at this point

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sparks (Aug 17, 2022)

People really think that Kishimoto would have Naruto attain his dream of becoming the Hokage, be responsible for protecting all the people in the Leaf Village, including his own wife and children, against newly evolving and modern threats, and yet be tiers weaker than he was nearly two decades earlier. 

It's fucking laughable when you have Jigen (who has watered down powers of Isshiki) casually shitdiff 6T Rinengan/EMS and SPSM/100% Kurama empowered Sasuke and Naruto (the former top tier powers of the verse) at the same time, and then have two tiers of cyborgs that are stronger than that (Ada/Daemon >> Unlimited Code > Jigen), with Prime Isshiki being even above that. It's not that Naruto and Sasuke's powers got weaker, it's just their gains are insufficient to contest threats that greatly surpass both of them outright.

Learn how to read a fucking Shonen manga. Until then, stances like that of @Raiken  are worth less than nothing.

Cry more.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Raiken (Aug 17, 2022)

Sparks said:


> People really think that Kishimoto would have Naruto attain his dream of becoming the Hokage, be responsible for protecting all the people in the Leaf Village, including his own wife and children, against newly evolving and modern threats, and yet be tiers weaker than he was nearly two decades earlier.
> 
> It's fucking laughable when you have Jigen (who has watered down powers of Isshiki) casually shitdiff 6T Rinengan/EMS and SPSM/100% Kurama empowered Sasuke and Naruto (the former top tier powers of the verse) at the same time, and then have two tiers of cyborgs that are stronger than that (Ada/Daemon >> Unlimited Code > Jigen), with Prime Isshiki being even above that. It's not that Naruto and Sasuke's powers got weaker, it's just their gains are insufficient to contest threats that greatly surpass both of them outright.
> 
> ...


Looks like the only person crying here is you.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## MYGod000 (Aug 17, 2022)

MustardPN said:


> How would Indra have Six Paths chakra? He had his own Indra chakra and that chakra needed to be mixed with Ashura chakra to create Six Paths chakra. He is only one of the components of 6P chakra. If he had it he would awaken the Rinnegan


Indra had 25% of his Dads DNA who has Six path chakra who said he needed to mix his chakra with Ashura?



Hagoromo said Indra possessed his Gene and Powerful chakra.


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## Asura barracuda (Aug 17, 2022)

Sparks said:


> People really think that Kishimoto would have Naruto attain his dream of becoming the Hokage, be responsible for protecting all the people in the Leaf Village, including his own wife and children, against newly evolving and modern threats, and yet be tiers weaker than he was nearly two decades earlier.
> 
> It's fucking laughable when you have Jigen (who has watered down powers of Isshiki) casually shitdiff 6T Rinengan/EMS and SPSM/100% Kurama empowered Sasuke and Naruto (the former top tier powers of the verse) at the same time, and then have two tiers of cyborgs that are stronger than that (Ada/Daemon >> Unlimited Code > Jigen), with Prime Isshiki being even above that. It's not that Naruto and Sasuke's powers got weaker, it's just their gains are insufficient to contest threats that greatly surpass both of them outright.
> 
> ...




Boruto is the one who protects and also saves the village in the manga.


>





he's called and recognised as Momoshikis superior in base.


Boruto is even recognized as more powerful than Naruto in base.




Boro who is above Jigen is weaker than 2T Sarada who is stronger than base Boruto by canon depiction.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> He was still missing 8 & 1 Tail Chakra. Which was specifically highlighted as what Naruto needed a couple of times.


Exactly...people ignore that.



We see that right here...that he was missing 1 tails and 8 tails chakra



We see it right here Obito gave Naruto the Last bit of chakra needed for Naruto to unlock RSM....But the 50% of Hagoromo's chakra did come from the seals which they lost after they Sealed Kaguya. 

VOTE 2 Naruto and Sasuke are no longer 50% Hagoromo power after they sealed Kaguya. 

50% of Hagoromo chakra wasn't a permanent boost it was temporary for Sealing Kaguya.

They no longer have the power  or chakra to create that Moon as shown multiple times.


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## Goku (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> 1. Naruto & Sasuke's performance against Shin.


Sasuke would had crisped Shin had his clone not saved him and Naruto noted that Sasuke's performance could had been a lot better. They only got tagged when Shin surprised them with his ability.


Raiken said:


> 2. Base Momo & Kinshiki being out-performed by Kage levels.


That never happened and the Gokage was the best they had in terms of combat ability. Momoshiki evaded and blocked all of Darui's attacks. Kinshiki made quick work out of Chojuro and he quickly got up from Kurotsuchi's punch. Chojuro and Kurotuschi binded Kinshiki once he got weakened by Sasuke's Chidori.


Raiken said:


> 3. Transformed Momo getting put on his arse by a tiny Rasengan from Kid Base Boruto.


That was an off guard Momoshiki and he fought much stronger opponents than Boruto. By that logic, Kaguya is weak since a fatigued Sakura damaged her.


Raiken said:


> 3. Delta pressing Naruto while Boro who was considered more dangerous than Delta was defeated by 4 Jonin levels.


All Code implied is that Boro was better suited for fighting Naruto, which is true since the latter doesn't have antibodies for Boro's viruses.


Raiken said:


> 4. Post-Fruit Kaguya being portrayed as above Isshiki.


Kaguya made an entire army for Momoshiki and Kinshiki. So much for "Post-Fruit Kaguya being portrayed as above Isshiki."


Raiken said:


> 5. Adult Naruto's greatest source of power being confirmed multiple times to be Kurama.
> 6. Adult Naruto being confirmed to not be "super-human" anymore due to the loss of Kurama.


We're outright told that Kurama *and* Naruto's chakra are serving as the kernels to produce a new type energy (Kurama Mode and Six Paths Sage Mode). Baryon Mode consumed *both* of their chakra that were serving as the kernels to produce said-energy.


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## Asura barracuda (Aug 17, 2022)

Goku said:


> Sasuke would had crisped Shin had his clone not saved him and Naruto noted that Sasuke's performance could had been a lot better. They only got tagged when Shin surprised them with his ability.



Excuses.

Sasuke used Amenotojikara, the greatest tool for surprise attacks and couldn't kill Shin.

The fact that he even resorted to Ameno means he couldn't blitz him.

Infact Sasuke pulled the Perfect Susanoo just to capture Shin.




Goku said:


> That never happened and the Gokage was the best they had in terms of combat ability. Momoshiki evaded and blocked all of Darui's attacks. Kinshiki made quick work out of Chojuro and he quickly got up from Kurotsuchi's punch. Chojuro and Kurotuschi binded Kinshiki once he got weakened by Sasuke's Chidori.



Chojuro tricked Kinshiki into cutting him and leaving himself open.

Then Kurotsuchi came and pummeled Kinshiki.

Kinshiki throughout the fight couldn't for one moment do anything to Kurotsuchi, not even a single punch was landed.

Then they both neg diffed him together while looking to be having fun, meanwhile Kinshiki was screaming and yelling like the fodder he is.

It's clear they didn't take him seriously at all as threat.



Goku said:


> That was an off guard Momoshiki and he fought much stronger opponents than Boruto. By that logic, Kaguya is weak since a fatigued Sakura damaged her.



Boruto faced Momoshiki head on and gave him a half baked rasengan blow to the gut, it clearly hurt Momoshiki even more this time and even scarred him.


A shuriken sent Momoshiki flying.

Momoshiki was also running away from tiny little Shurikens too.


Momoshikis durability is consistent sorry.






Goku said:


> All Code implied is that Boro was better suited for fighting Naruto, which is true since the latter doesn't have antibodies for Boro's viruses.



Yeah such bullshit.

Jigen gave Boro the authority to go stop and defeat Sasuke.

This is after witnessing Sasukes power, knowing he had perfect Susanoo and everything yet Jigen trusted that code could defeat Sasuke.

Jigens words and trust greater than any bullshit cope.




Goku said:


> Kaguya made an entire army for Momoshiki and Kinshiki. So much for "Post-Fruit Kaguya being portrayed as above Isshiki."



Pre fruit Kaguya is the one who's above Isshiki actually.

And Adult Sasuke calling Kaguyas power immeasurable, meaning he still sees her as someone unbeatable shots on Sasuke giving Momoshiki to the Gokage as a plaything.

Sasuke also calling Kaguyas power immeasurable shits on Sasuke handing Momoshiki over to Boruto to defeat which he did by the way.

Tell me when Sasuke can hand Kaguya over to Boruto because he can defeat her.





Goku said:


> We're outright told that Kurama *and* Naruto's chakra are serving as the kernels to produce a new type energy (Kurama Mode and Six Paths Sage Mode). Baryon Mode consumed *both* of their chakra that were serving as the kernels to produce said-energy.



Kurama lied, only his Chakra got burned.

Naruto would have died in seconds as his Chakra capacity is absolutely whack in comparison to Kuramas reserves.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Oh what's this?? So now you're saying that 50% Hagaromo's Chakra is less than an additional 50% of Kurama's Chakra.



I must be in the Twilight Zone or something did World Strongest Really Just asked you to prove 50% Hagoromo chakra>Kurama's Chakra?


The same Guy who tell people to use common sense.... If Hagoromo is only barely above Kurama's chakra than how is he not weaker than the Ten tails?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Sparks (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Looks like the only person crying here is you.


I'm not the one that threw a hissy fit just last week.


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## Raiken (Aug 17, 2022)

Sparks said:


> I'm not the one that threw a hissy fit just last week.


In reaction to yours, WS's & Capa's usual toxic behaviour, as evidenced by your posts in this thread. All you guys do is trash-talk and attack the poster instead of actually debating, never posting anything of substance.


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## MustardPN (Aug 17, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> Indra had 25% of his Dads DNA who has Six path chakra who said he needed to mix his chakra with Ashura?
> 
> 
> 
> Hagoromo said Indra possessed his Gene and Powerful chakra.


Because if Indra's chakra was enough to have Rinnegan then Madara and Sasuke wouldn't need Hashi cells 
And Indra himself would've had the Rinnegan

Indra had powerful chakra, but not the exact same type of powerful chakra as Hagoromo
Just like how Kaguya's Rinnesharingan got diluted into the Rinnegan, Hagoromo's Rinnegan got diluted into Indra's Sharingan
In both cases powerful chakra and visual jutsu were passed down, but not in the same form


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> The Boruto Anime & Manga pretty much re-did the *entire* Momoshiki fight.


And that has nothing at all to do with The Last

Nor does it have anything to do with Kishis intentions with the Momo movie either really

Both mediums portray near identical beats



Raiken said:


> You seen Toneri in Boruto Manga??
> 
> External Kurama??


Dont see kakashi in the Boruto manga either so I guess hes not canon even tho he is a canon character from a previous canon Naruto work  

Written and directed and edited by Kishimoto  

Openly referred to by Kishimoto as canon to the manga multiple times  

Interesting viewpoint this 

But like I said earlier

literally all you know how to do is stonewall canon you dont like

All youve been doing in this thread and every one like it and all youve done for years

And youve never once been right in doing so 

You do nothing but spout headcanon


Raiken said:


> Yeah dude, totally canon.


It is actually

Ask Kishimoto 

Dude wrote it, directed it and provided complete editorial supervision for the entire project

Something he had never done before actually

And Ive slapped you on this before too

And we both know it 





WorldsStrongest said:


> TL was directly written by Kishimoto dude
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like sincerely man

Learn how to use a fucking search engine, type in the prompt "is the last canon" 

And then just be honest with yourself for 10 seconds and youre wrong on your opinion of this

Kinda like your opinion on most things Naruto tbh


Raiken said:


> The Last wreaked of the scent of Perriot Movie/Filler.


That Kishi edited and approved  

Whether you like it or not


WorldsStrongest said:


> Kishimoto DID provide "complete editorial supervision" for the film tho
> 
> Regardless...This is a really silly gripe to have here
> 
> ...


This is a really trash attempt at trying to poison the well

but par for the course with you and your incredibly bad arguments 


Raiken said:


> No need to, reason above.


Shitty reasons that are entirely personal and have 0 merit or logic in them at all  

You can bitch about your gripes with The Lasts fucking art direction all you want

Still fucking directed by Kishi

Still fucking edited by kishi

Still fucking marketed as chapter 699.5 by Kishi

Still fucking canon BY KISHI

you lose

As always


Raiken said:


> People understand the concept of different mediums well enough in the DB section


Except thats not what youre arguing 

Nice goalpost shift tho

You literally just claimed in black and white that its not canon PERIOD 


Raiken said:


> Yeah dude, totally canon. The Last wreaked of the scent of Perriot Movie/Filler.


And also, your DB example is really bad

As there are massive difference in both the plot and occurrences between the DBS manga and anime tellings of the same arcs

Thats not the case at all for Boruto

The biggest change is in Momos design and some fight choreography

Thats it

Aside from that?

Same fucking story and fights overall, the feats even line up the same ffs


Raiken said:


> At their maximum output they have some Low-God Tier feats.


You literally conceded they have high god tier showings a few days ago

You admitted to me that you have Jigen as Juudara level at worst and that you agree the Fate Bros almost beat him as adults anyway

And I KNOW you dont have Juudara as "low god tier"


Raiken said:


> He's got the power of Isshiki. And Isshiki is relative to Juudara imo.





Raiken said:


> V2 Jigen >>> Juubito.





Raiken said:


> someone like V2 Jigen, who imo is relative to Juudara





Raiken said:


> if the fight had gone on much longer, Bros could have won.




FOH with this revisionist history bullshit  

Ill shine the fucking spotlight right in your face and expose you for the lies youre spewing right now

It is beyond a waste of time to ever talk to you if youre gonna turn around and do this shit man  



Raiken said:


> Pretty sure that's you when you accuse your opposition of having* 0 evidence and garbage opinions* when in fact...


Because you have none

And what conclusions you do hold are, as a result, incredibly contradictory 

As I just exposed you up above for the second time in a week with your incredibly bad take on the Jigen scaling

"Yep Jigens Juudara level at least"

"Yep Fate Bros as Adults even without the advantage of the RCT seals could fight and nearly defeat Jigen" 

"Teen fate bros NEED THE SEALS to defeat Madara even AS A TEAM"

"No, Adult fate bros are clearly weaker than Teen"

And you see 0 issues with this chain of events

Huh


Raiken said:


> Your whole strategy is always discredit who you're talking to


No my strategy is to present what youre saying in an unbiased context 

For both your benefit and all those reading 

Like dude...Whenever I debate you I ALWAYS steelman your points and I STILL prove you wrong

Thats how bad your takes are

I did exactly that in the very thread I linked with my quotes here and you just tucked tail like always

I give you massive benefit of the doubt with these steelmans and still prove your stance to be a contradictory mess and questionable as all hell to be as polite as possible.

I would LOVE to see you steelman my beliefs and then do any semblance of well in a debate against me 

You wouldnt last a single post

Cuz you have no citations and unlike you, my opinions arent contradictory 


Raiken said:


> Shin reacted to Sasuke's speed


His nerfed speed*

Little asterisk there you ignore like your life depends on it I see


Raiken said:


> forced him to use Amenotejikara


"forced"

Dude was 15 feet away from danger but ok

Sasuke could have done literally anything there and used Ameno to flex and then immediately end the fight with a basic Katon. thats it.

But sure

"forced him"

Not like Sasuke escaped a way more dangerous scenario earlier in this very run with a simple Chidori variant or something was it?

Nawww

That never happened

Sasuke definitely couldnt use Chidori to help him in a CQC situation

Nope


Raiken said:


> reacted to that as well


Wanna watch me slap the shit out of your argument by steelmanning your point again? By exposing your takes as being hilariously contradictory?

Cool lets go

You claim that Shin is fodder, and that Sasuke and Narutos showings against him are thus antifeats that take away from their own God tier status, as you refuse to admit they are nerfed in Gaiden as explictely stated.

Cool, lets assume thats true. And Naruto and Sasuke are at their full power as Adults in gaiden.

But...You then simultaneously claim that Shin forces Sasuke, who you claim is at his full power in Gaiden, to use Ameno.

This same Sasuke who you claimed a moment ago is AT LEAST low God tier


Raiken said:


> At their maximum output they have some Low-God Tier feats.


So Sasuke has God tier Ameno use still in your mind

Yet you claim Shin forced him to use Ameno, and then reacted to said Ameno

But guess who COULDNT react to Ameno?

not even once?

Madara...As a Shinju enhanced JJ...Despite seeing it 3 fucking times he is both physically and mentally blitzed each time...

So this would just make Shin > JJ Madara  

According to your own logic here

So now if you could please tell me how this makes a nerfed Sasuke look bad for finessing a JJ Madara+ level opponent while Sasuke himself is nerfed?

Id very much so appreciate it


Raiken said:


> Pretty sure that's an anti-feat compared to his previous performance against Madara & Kaguya.


Not if you claim Shin is reacting to shit Madara cant react to its not  

Which you just did  

Thats a nerfed Sasuke finessing and nearly oneshotting someone with Shinju Madara+ level reactions and physical speed according to you

Hows that a bad look for him  


Raiken said:


> Black Zetsu was an ally of Madara


And fodder by comparison 

And still oneshotted your boy

Literally the worst antifeat in the entire series


Raiken said:


> Kaguya was already in him...


Nope

Its made very clear when the process of injecting Kaguyas essence and chakra begins 




Raiken said:


> See above.


Nothing you posted above addresses the fact that Madara is in no world nerfed before BZ tags him

Hes at his full power and oneshotted anyway 


Raiken said:


> They have plenty of merit


They really dont

Its why your every stance is revealed to be VERY contradictory and self serving 

Its why I can literally grant you half of what you believe like its no big deal and STILL thrash you in terms of your conclusions

Cuz your basis for them is pulled entirely out of thin air


Raiken said:


> Madara's low-ends are way more respectful than what happened with Momoshiki & Kinshiki. By a country-mile.


No

they arent

Momoshiki and Kinshiki ARENT DEFEATED by the Kage

And the Kage are >>>>> BZ anyway, Teen fucking Chojuro finessed BZ.

Madara WAS DEFEATED by BZ

In no world can you argue his showing is more respectful 


Raiken said:


> That's completely wrong.


Its a blatant fact

Sasuke is right alongside them the entire time until Kinshiki is sealed, and ... 

Your nonsense assertion thatthe O clan is fucking Kage level is just that. 

Fucking nonsense 

Kuro is THE ONLY KAGE to land EVEN 1 HIT on an O clan member and she does it via a feint and ambush.

Which is then followed up on by fucking SASUKE, who creates the window for the Kage to seal him.

the SECOND that ANY of the Kage are left alone to face Kinshiki they are slap diffed

you have no idea what youre talking about


Raiken said:


> I don't respond to you


because you lose constantly  

We know bud


Raiken said:


> Come on man, i know you're better than getting on the... "The Neo-Kage's are Founder level train


Who said Founders level?

I just asked you to prove their standing as normal Kage level scrubs like your argument requires

In case it escaped your notice, the likes of Base Minato and Tobirama and Kakashi were all very instrumental in facing Juubito and Juudara

It is not a unique concept to Boruto that exceptional Kage can last for a brief window of time against God tiers and even accomplish things that are very useful against them

Youre being incredibly disingenuous (yet again) when you act like the simple fact they dont immediately murder Kages whove been training to fight aliens for years automatically means the aliens suck.

When your boy Madara was doing the same things to fuckers like Rock Lee


Raiken said:


> In no way was his "top-speed" reacted to by Lee


You right

Something faster than his top speed was reacted to by Lee

My b


Raiken said:


> As I said, the showings of Momo & Kinshiki are far more worthy of downplay than what happened with Juudara.


they arent

And the more you act like they are the more sad and biased you look


Raiken said:


> You've done no such thing,





WorldsStrongest said:


> Boro in totality is noted roughly comparable to Delta...Not one specific form of him thats VISIBLY far below his peak
> 
> And Boro at his peak had some parity with Momoshiki
> 
> ...





WorldsStrongest said:


> Boros power greatly varies
> 
> In base hes complete and utter fodder whereas at his peak hes a rough peer of Momoshikis
> 
> ...


Looks like I did champ


Raiken said:


> Again - "I don't respond to you, because


because you lost and got tilted and left, accusing me of crossing a line that never happened

We know bud, you do this all the time

Like youre about to do here


Raiken said:


> We don't know for certain that's true.


Exactly

So why would you aseert that we know Kaguya > Isshiki when we cant call that


Raiken said:


> No you didn't, and never have.


I have 

Near constantly


WorldsStrongest said:


> Kurama can be his greatest source of chakra and that means literally nothing for his overall standing
> 
> It just means Naruto has less stamina...Thats it. His potency is whats important
> 
> Real cute how you Madara stans are so quick to point this out when it comes to Madara/Kaguya debates that reserves arent everything (as tho thats the only point he has to worry about) but completely ignore your own logic in this debate





WorldsStrongest said:


> Even steelmanning that they lost Hagoromos chakra (but still kept Hagoromos Senjutsu and Rinnegan somehow...Never got how the fuck you managed to reconcile these 2 statements but I digress) after Part 2 that does nothing for your stance.
> 
> Assuming they lost said chakra merely means they grew beyond said amped level even after losing access to said amp
> 
> ...


Very few interactions with you end without me schooling you in something in fact


Raiken said:


> Oh what's this?? So now you're saying that 50% Hagaromo's Chakra is less than an additional 50% of Kurama's Chakra.


I just asked* you to prove* the chakra they lost was

As your stance requires you to prove it

I never claimed belief one way or the other


Raiken said:


> Same old baseless claims.


Already provided the quotes showing this isnt true

Good ol TLDR you ducked a matter of days ago 


Raiken said:


> Anyone with basic deduction skills knows what Naruto has as an Adult, and what he had as a Teen. Are not the exact same state.


And anyone with basic deduction skill knows that this is largely, if not entirely due to the fact he has added an extra half of Kurama to his KCM

KCM being the thing that...Ya know...Shrouds his body in the chakra aura at all in the first place?

SPSM doesnt do that?

For any user?

Ever?

KCM that also has a history of differing appearence regarding the Kurama chakra present in the body?

With shit like KCM1 to KCM2 looking different, and Yin and Yang Kurama creating totally different modes?


Raiken said:


> I can see why people think the lack of Sage Pigmentation is a sign of RSM usage and I agree it is.


Then you agree you have no argument

Good chat


Raiken said:


> Just lies. But okay.


Lies that you dont have a statement that hints at Naruto dropping in standing over the end of the war?

Cool then you wouldnt mind posting it for me and oneshotting this debate forever please

Go ahead  

Gimme the statement that says Teen Naruto > Adult Naruto 


Raiken said:


> You're completely missing the point. Your guys argument for ages was that Naruto & Sasuke were God Tier in base because of Hagaromo's Chakra.


No it wasnt  

If you wanna get into this again thats fine with me

The argument was their HILARIOUSLY SUPERIOR FEATS FROM THE LAST

Which have only been compounded since

that and the fact that they retained all their abilities from Hagoromo (referring to SPSM and Rinnegan) which they visibly always have

Their chakra content and volume is and always was irrelevant to their standing...And I ALWAYS said this

Quote of mine from over a year ago if you dont believe me 


WorldsStrongest said:


> It provides a boost thats at least more POTENT than him considering Pre JJ > Pre Seal Naruto yet Post Naruto is >>> Pre shinju JJ Madara
> 
> He might have less total chakra but what he does with it is way more impressive
> 
> ...


Another one from over 2 years ago


WorldsStrongest said:


> Base Narutos Chakra > the Juubi >>>>>> 50% of Kurama overall
> 
> Whether you buy thats potency only, volume only, or both the point stands.


Ive always held this belief 

Ive always entertained the notion that Narutos raw reserves are inferior to the Juubis, but his potency makes up for it.

I have never dismissed this reading and have ALWAYS extolled the merits of it.

It was always just as likely Naruto had greater volume, just greater potency, or was greater in both.

We ended up going the middle ground, which is and always was fine with my opinions


Legit nothing has changed on this debate for me since well before Naruto lost Kurama  

You can attempt to poison the well all you want kiddo but it dont work


Raiken said:


> Pretty sure most of this post of yours is nothing


Nothing but pretending half of your conclusions are correct and till proving you wrong anyway  


Raiken said:


> No I only get heated with you because you're toxic 99% of the time with me.


Nah


Raiken said:


> Baseless claim. We've offered tonnes of reasonable and logical evidence


Nah


----------



## MYGod000 (Aug 17, 2022)

MustardPN said:


> Because if Indra's chakra was enough to have Rinnegan then Madara and Sasuke wouldn't need Hashi cells
> And Indra himself would've had the Rinnegan



that was already explained...over the years the DNA got diluted.

Madara and Sasuke also needed EMS to achieve Rinnegan as well how would Indra Gain EMS? Ashura never had dojutus.

Indra still was 25% Otsutsuki DNA. 

Indra and Ashura had the same blood buddy why would he need to get Ashura DNA for? 


MustardPN said:


> Indra had powerful chakra, but not the exact same type of powerful chakra as Hagoromo
> Just like how Kaguya's Rinnesharingan got diluted into the Rinnegan, Hagoromo's Rinnegan got diluted into Indra's Sharingan
> In both cases powerful chakra and visual jutsu were passed down, but not in the same form


Yes,  But Hagoromo didn't need  take Hamura chakra to Gain SPSM or any of that. 

Hagoromo said Indra had his chakra...BZ doesn't make reference that indicated indra Needed Ashura DNA to get Rinnegan when they both have the Same DNA they are both 25% Otsutsuki. 


That was as the Generations went by Madara and Sasuke are like 150 Generation of Diluted Visual power and DNA later...how does that apply to Indra who is only just 1 Generation later after Kaguya?


----------



## Sparks (Aug 17, 2022)

Did I just see @Zef vote in the poll?


----------



## Goku (Aug 17, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> Excuses.
> 
> Sasuke used Amenotojikara, the greatest tool for surprise attacks and couldn't kill Shin.
> 
> The fact that he even resorted to Ameno means he couldn't blitz him.


Wdym? Shin's clone had to save him from Sasuke's Fireball Jutsu. Furthermore, Naruto made it clear that Sasuke's performance was nothing since he could do a whole lot more. Not a good look for Shin.


Asura barracuda said:


> Infact Sasuke pulled the Perfect Susanoo just to capture Shin.


That never happened, he used his Perfect Susanoo to travel to Shin's location.


Asura barracuda said:


> Chojuro tricked Kinshiki into cutting him and leaving himself open.
> 
> Then Kurotsuchi came and pummeled Kinshiki.
> 
> ...


Chojuro had to put his life on the line to give Kurotsuchi an opening and Kurotuschi's punch barely damaged an off guard Kinshiki. As I said before, Chojuro and Kurotsuchi were able to bind Kinshiki after he was weakened by Sasuke's Chidori.


Asura barracuda said:


> Boruto faced Momoshiki head on and gave him a half baked rasengan blow to the gut, it clearly hurt Momoshiki even more this time and even scarred him.
> 
> 
> A shuriken sent Momoshiki flying.
> ...


That's not an anti-feat for Momoshiki when Boruto had his Jōgan activated. Naruto sending Momoshiki flying or Momoshiki evading Raiton-enhanced Fūma Shurikens isn't an anti-feat either.


Asura barracuda said:


> Yeah such bullshit.
> 
> Jigen gave Boro the authority to go stop and defeat Sasuke.
> 
> ...


Sasuke was badly wounded and unconscious during that time.


Asura barracuda said:


> Pre fruit Kaguya is the one who's above Isshiki actually.
> 
> And Adult Sasuke calling Kaguyas power immeasurable, meaning he still sees her as someone unbeatable shots on Sasuke giving Momoshiki to the Gokage as a plaything.
> 
> ...


Isshiki is ranked higher than Kaguya and you're using an out of context statement from Sasuke to make Kaguya look more impressive. Momoshiki and Kinshiki were clearly opponents Kaguya couldn't beat alone and she had to amass an entire army for them. Boruto being handed over to Momoshiki is no different from Sakura being handed over to Kaguya.


Asura barracuda said:


> Kurama lied, only his Chakra got burned.
> 
> Naruto would have died in seconds as his Chakra capacity is absolutely whack in comparison to Kuramas reserves.


Baryon Mode is a similar principle to nuclear fusion and their chakra was serving as the kernels to produce said-energy. Logically, it was consuming both of their chakra. Kurama also made it clear that he never lied to Naruto.


----------



## MustardPN (Aug 17, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> that was already explained...over the years the DNA got diluted.
> 
> Madara and Sasuke also needed EMS to achieve Rinnegan as well how would Indra Gain EMS? Ashura never had dojutus.
> 
> ...


If Indra didn't need Ashura's chakra for Rinnegan then he would've had it. They don't have the same DNA, they're not identical twins, and they have very different powers. They're basically Hagoromo's chakra split into two, you need both halves to recreate Hagoromo's and get the Rinnegan

Indra either awakened/was born with EMS already instead of starting out with the MS due to his potent chakra (or just stole the eyes of his children), if he didn't have it then Hagoromo and Zetsu wouldn't know that it exists and therefore wouldn't be able to write a segment of the stone tablet dedicated specifically to EMS wielders

Indra's transmigrants possess Indra's chakra and yet they need Ashura's chakra to get the Rinnegan, why would it be different for Indra who has the same chakra? In fact, we know it isn't different since he didn't have the Rinnegan


MYGod000 said:


> Yes,  But Hagoromo didn't need  take Hamura chakra to Gain SPSM or any of that.


Because he didn't need to recreate someone's chakra to obtain it
We were told that Hagoromo's chakra is needed to awaken the Rinnegan, and that it can be recreated by combining the chakra of Indra and Ashura


MYGod000 said:


> Hagoromo said Indra had his chakra...BZ doesn't make reference that indicated indra Needed Ashura DNA to get Rinnegan when they both have the Same DNA they are both 25% Otsutsuki.


They don't have the same DNA, they're not identical twins. And their power are very different. Hagoromo said Indra inherited his powerful chakra in the same way i could say my son inherited my sharp vision; what i'm saying dosen't mean that my son has the exact same vision as me, just that his vision is good and so is mine


MYGod000 said:


> That was as the Generations went by Madara and Sasuke are like 150 Generation of Diluted Visual power and DNA later...how does that apply to Indra who is only just 1 Generation later after Kaguya?


It applies to him because he's also clearly very different from Hagoromo and dosen't have Rinnegan


----------



## Asura barracuda (Aug 17, 2022)

Goku said:


> Wdym? Shin's clone had to save him from Sasuke's Fireball Jutsu. Furthermore, Naruto made it clear that Sasuke's performance was nothing since he could do a whole lot more. Not a good look for Shin.



Shins clone moved faster than Sasuke.

Not a good look for Sasuke at all.




Goku said:


> That never happened, he used his Perfect Susanoo to travel to Shin's location.



Yes, and it was the perfect Susanoo that did what Sasuke himself couldn't.

It was able to capture Shin Uchiha after he avoided a slash from the Perfect Susanoo busting in.

He still pulled and used the Perfect Susanoo to achieve this feat.



Goku said:


> Chojuro had to put his life on the line to give Kurotsuchi an opening and Kurotuschi's punch barely damaged an off guard Kinshiki. As I said before, Chojuro and Kurotsuchi were able to bind Kinshiki after he was weakened by Sasuke's Chidori.



They still played with Kinshiki, smiling and having fun while Kinshiki was trying with his life.

The Kages still clearly didn't treat Kinshiki as a threat.

Kurotsuchi was untouchable to Kinshiki on all fronts, Chojuro made himself bait.

The Kages did extremely freaking fine without Sasuke who got bashed into the god tree in a single moment.

The Kages did extremely fine.





Goku said:


> That's not an anti-feat for Momoshiki when Boruto had his Jōgan activated. Naruto sending Momoshiki flying or Momoshiki evading Raiton-enhanced Fūma Shurikens isn't an anti-feat either.



Don't even try bringing in some bullshit.

Jogan does nothing to Borutos stats 

We've seen him activate the Jogan again and it clearly didn't make him Kaguya level or sum shit.

Jogan doesn't amp stats, it's feats clearly show so.



Goku said:


> Sasuke was badly wounded and unconscious during that time.



For Sasuke to travel dimensions means he would have to be healed.

So Jigen wasn't expecting Boro to fight some washed up Sasuke but clearly a healthy version of Sasuke.

The orders weren't Sasuke is weakened now, it would be possible for you to take him on if he comes.

He just sent Boro to straight up deal with Sasuke.

Don't make up scenarios for Sasuke being weak or something.





Goku said:


> Isshiki is ranked higher than Kaguya and you're talking using an out of context statement from Sasuke to make Kaguya look more impressive.



Oh please drop the bullshit.

What out of context does Sasuke using present tense to describe Kaguyas power do you not understand?


What out of context are you talking about here?

Naruto himself didn't even refute this statement and say well we're way more powerful now and can deal with her.

He just straight up broke a sweat.


And Momoshiki is ranked above Urashiki yet Urashiki is farrrrrrrrrr stronger than Base Momoshiki.

He took on Sasuke, the Kages and everyone combined.

Neg diffed Sasuke and was able to ACTUALLY break through Gaaras shield.

So using rank doesn't work in your favour here.


----------



## Soul (Aug 17, 2022)

As a rule of thumb, main protagonists > not main protagonists.
Teen should win, probably with Naruto TnJ. I can already imagine:  "You and me are the same old me, there's no point in fighting".
Easy win.

Can't imagine not knowing how to kill off a character that I made too powerful and coming up with this crap.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## The Messiah (Aug 17, 2022)

Raiken said:


> You're completely missing the point.
> 
> Your guys argument for ages was that Naruto & Sasuke were God Tier in Base because of Hagaromo's Chakra.
> 
> Then Naruto lost Kurama, and was weak as shit in Base. Further supporting the idea, along with all the other things that support it, that Hagaromo's Chakra was not retained as Adults.


Damn. I’m in the camp of Adult fate bros > teens but this right here is convincing me otherwise.

Reactions: Kage 1


----------



## Andrew10458 (Aug 17, 2022)

The Messiah said:


> Damn. I’m in the camp of Adult fate bros > teens but this right here is convincing me otherwise.


Another victim

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Goku (Aug 17, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> Shins clone moved faster than Sasuke.
> 
> Not a good look for Sasuke at all.


Shin used his ocular power to use his clone as a body shield. Sasuke stated that both searching for and entering Kaguya's dimensions requires a lot of chakra to perform. So a chakra-drained Sasuke that wasn't even trying nearly crisped Shin.



Asura barracuda said:


> Yes, and it was the perfect Susanoo that did what Sasuke himself couldn't.
> 
> It was able to capture Shin Uchiha after he avoided a slash from the Perfect Susanoo busting in.
> 
> He still pulled and used the Perfect Susanoo to achieve this feat.


Sasuke dismembered Shin's arm and resorted to breaking his bones when he could have easily reduced him into a puddle of blood because his intention was to capture and interrogate him.



Asura barracuda said:


> They still played with Kinshiki, smiling and having fun while Kinshiki was trying with his life.
> 
> The Kages still clearly didn't treat Kinshiki as a threat.
> 
> ...


They did jack to Kinshiki, Chojuro couldn't even create an opening without putting his life on the line and Kurotsuchi punching a wide open Kinshiki amounted to nothing. Kinshiki barely took any damage and quickly got up. Had Sasuke not intervened, Kinshiki would had slaughtered them.


Asura barracuda said:


> Don't even try bringing in some bullshit.
> 
> Jogan does nothing to Borutos stats
> 
> ...


We know that members of the Ōtsutsuki Clan is familiar with the Jōgan and it's implied that Toneri gave it to Boruto to fight against the Ōtsutsuki.


Asura barracuda said:


> For Sasuke to travel dimensions means he would have to be healed.
> 
> So Jigen wasn't expecting Boro to fight some washed up Sasuke but clearly a healthy version of Sasuke.
> 
> ...


That makes no sense, Sasuke was beaten up badly a chapter ago before Boro appeared.


Asura barracuda said:


> Oh please drop the bullshit.
> 
> What out of context does Sasuke using present tense to describe Kaguyas power do you not understand?
> 
> ...


Kaguya's power being immeasurable pales in comparison to the Ōtsutsuki endlessly upgrading themselves by eating chakra fruits. Even the Ten Tails was also stated to be immeasurable. Sasuke made it clear their suspicions were correct and Kaguya was amassing an army of White Zetsu for the pair. If Kaguya's power is immeasurable, then so are the pair's power.


Asura barracuda said:


> And Momoshiki is ranked above Urashiki yet Urashiki is farrrrrrrrrr stronger than Base Momoshiki.
> 
> He took on Sasuke, the Kages and everyone combined.
> 
> ...


Urashiki defeated Sasuke through favorable circumstances. Momoshiki defeating Naruto through his Kurama Avatar is far better than anything Urashiki accomplished.


----------



## Asura barracuda (Aug 17, 2022)

Goku said:


> Shin used his ocular power to use his clone as a body shield. Sasuke stated that both searching for and entering Kaguya's dimensions requires a lot of chakra to perform. So a chakra-drained Sasuke that wasn't even trying nearly crisped Shin.



So we have chakra drained Sasuke headcannon now, I guess thats why he could pull out a Perfect Susanoo.

And we also have no trying Sasuke now, guess that's Sarada almost died and Sasuke used himself as a shield, yet Shin is still perfectly fine.



And Shin used his occular powers so what, is Sasuke not using occular powers too?

Shins Occular powers tricked Sasukes occular powers then he lived.






Goku said:


> They did jack to Kinshiki, Chojuro couldn't even create an opening without putting his life on the line and Kurotsuchi punching a wide open Kinshiki amounted to nothing. Kinshiki barely took any damage and quickly got up. *Had Sasuke not intervened, Kinshiki would had slaughtered them.*



This is pure baseless cope.

Kurotsuchi couldn't be touched by Kinshiki, her sealing Jutsu can neg diff him.

Chojuros needles can kill him.

Kinshiki was being handled fine, very very fine.

There's no single proof in the manga that was capable of Killing even Chojuro let alone Kurotsuchi who can pummel him.

The Kages took a hit from fused Momoshiki from a smokescreen yet they all came out fine and were in fact ready to take on him.

So your reasoning that somehow Kinshiki could kill a Kage is baseless.




Goku said:


> Sasuke dismembered Shin's arm and resorted to breaking his bones when he could have easily reduced him into a puddle of blood because his intention was to capture and interrogate him.




You're literally proving my point.

This was the perfect Susanoo here that's able to do this to Shin.




Goku said:


> We know that members of the Ōtsutsuki Clan is familiar with the Jōgan and it's implied that Toneri gave it to Boruto to fight against the Ōtsutsuki.



Sure, whatever the Jogan was created to do.

It does NOTHING to stats, we've seen Boruto use the eyes about five times now and yet he didn't get some Multiple faster than light speed and reaction.

He was basically all the same which is my point here.

Base Boruto is who performed equally against Momoshiki.





Goku said:


> That makes no sense, Sasuke was beaten up badly a chapter ago before Boro appeared.



And Sasuke was low on chakra after he left, Sasukes portals take a huge amount of power to make.

Sasuke was also being healed by Sakura mind you, so no matter how you try to twist it.

It would be a Sakura healed Sasuke that would be coming back to rescuing Naruto not some low on chakra Sasuke who can't even use basic MS Jutsu.




Goku said:


> Kaguya's power being immeasurable means nothing when the Ōtsutsuki had been upgrading themselves by eating chakra fruits.



And yet they were kage level beings whom the Kage toyed with, they had trash fruits and even Momoshiki himself acknowledges this.

Sasukes statement about Kaguya takes precedence over the Momoshiki whom he treated like fodder and no respect at all.

Even the games although non canon have Naruto spit in Momoshikis face and call him weaker than Kaguya.

The novels is farrr worse.


The only person whom Sasuke called their power immeasurable was Kaguya.

Naruto breaking a sweat too in agreement is all the basic confirmation right here.




Goku said:


> Even the Ten Tails was also stated to be immeasurable. Sasuke made it clear their suspicions were correct and Kaguya was amassing an army of White Zetsu for the pair. If Kaguya's power is immeasurable, then so are the pair's power.



Actually it was after making the statement about the army that Sasuke then said her power is immeasurable.

Fodder Kages took on Momoshiki, he's clearly not even worth an army of Jounins by feats.

Sasuke compared him to a ninja tool, showed massive disrespect and handed him over to Boruto to finish.

Such a badass Momoshiki was indeed.




Goku said:


> Urashiki defeated Sasuke through favorable circumstances. Momoshiki defeating Naruto through his Kurama Avatar is far better than anything Urashiki accomplished.



Urashiki defeated Sasuke straight up, took his chakra and then beat the Kages whom Momoshiki couldn't face head on even in his Transformed state.

Gaara who is the second strongest Kage and then Chojuro.



Naruto also let himself purposefully get defeated even though he could have easily killed him.

We see fused Momoshiki couldn't even dent a drained Narutos avatar with his golemn, none of his Jutsu were even able to touch Sasukes normal sword.


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## MYGod000 (Aug 18, 2022)

MustardPN said:


> If Indra didn't need Ashura's chakra for Rinnegan then he would've had it. They don't have the same DNA, they're not identical twins, and they have very different powers. They're basically Hagoromo's chakra split into two, you need both halves to recreate Hagoromo's and get the Rinnegan
> 
> Indra either awakened/was born with EMS already instead of starting out with the MS due to his potent chakra (or just stole the eyes of his children), if he didn't have it then Hagoromo and Zetsu wouldn't know that it exists and therefore wouldn't be able to write a segment of the stone tablet dedicated specifically to EMS wielders
> 
> ...



Black Zetsu never made it clear that Indra needed Ashura DNA it was only stated indra's descendant did Indra is different from The uchiha, He not even an uchiha he is an Otsutsuki. 




He said he Told the reincarnations of them of each clan to attempt Rinnegan Manifestation...but he doesn't make it clear that Indra needed to do that.  All what you're doing is speculating...Rinnegan Manifestation isn't process that happens instantly. 


There no Guarantee you'll get Rinnegan even if you have the Necessary Requirements for It  it took Madara 60 Years before his Rinnegan Manifested. 

The only time Rinnegan didn't take that long was with Sasuke and that because Hagoromo Gifted it to him and awakened it for him. 

Regardless we have proof that Adult Naruto and Sasuke are indeed weaker than Before.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Neutral 1


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## MYGod000 (Aug 18, 2022)

Goku said:


> Shin used his ocular power to use his clone as a body shield. Sasuke stated that both searching for and entering Kaguya's dimensions requires a lot of chakra to perform. So a chakra-drained Sasuke that wasn't even trying nearly crisped Shin.



How was he not trying?  that doesn't make sense there is no statement of Sasuke saying he wasn't trying against Shin...you can say he is Weakened which is true but you're exaggerating the situation like you always do. 

all what needs to be know is that Sasuke put forth effort in that fight and was using Ameno  and Susanoo in that fight 

Shin could still react to him and compete with him.  He grabbed on to Sasuke sword and Sasuke didn't swing it or anything just stood their.


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## Goku (Aug 18, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> So we have chakra drained Sasuke headcannon now, I guess thats why he could pull out a Perfect Susanoo.
> 
> And we also have no trying Sasuke now, guess that's Sarada almost died and Sasuke used himself as a shield, yet Shin is still perfectly fine.
> 
> ...


Had it been one on one, Shin would had gotten crisped by a basic Fireball Jutsu from a chakra-drained Sasuke that was going easy on him. That's outright embarrassing. Sasuke pulled out his Perfect Susanoo after his ocular powers came back.


Asura barracuda said:


> This is pure baseless cope.
> 
> Kurotsuchi couldn't be touched by Kinshiki, her sealing Jutsu can neg diff him.
> 
> ...


Chojuro and Kurotsuchi tagged Kinshiki with their jutsu after he was paralyzed by Sasuke's Chidori. Before then, Kinshiki dodged a sneak attack from Chojuro and finessed him. Chojuro couldn’t keep up and had to put his own life on the line to give Kurotsuchi that *one opening*. Both Chojuro and Kurotsuchi lack feats to prove that they could keep up with a single exchange from Kinshiki.


Asura barracuda said:


> And Sasuke was low on chakra after he left, Sasukes portals take a huge amount of power to make.
> 
> Sasuke was also being healed by Sakura mind you, so no matter how you try to twist it.
> 
> It would be a Sakura healed Sasuke that would be coming back to rescuing Naruto not some low on chakra Sasuke who can't even use basic MS Jutsu.


Sasuke starts with close quarters combat in all of his fights. He'll lose by the time he gets close to Boro.


Asura barracuda said:


> Sure, whatever the Jogan was created to do.
> 
> It does NOTHING to stats, we've seen Boruto use the eyes about five times now and yet he didn't get some Multiple faster than light speed and reaction.
> 
> ...


Boruto's clones couldn't react to Momoshiki's attacks, it was only when the clone activated the Jōgan. Based on that alone, the Jōgan does amp your stats.


Asura barracuda said:


> And yet they were kage level beings whom the Kage toyed with, they had trash fruits and even Momoshiki himself acknowledges this.
> 
> Sasukes statement about Kaguya takes precedence over the Momoshiki whom he treated like fodder and no respect at all.
> 
> ...


Naruto and Sasuke mentioning Kaguya's "immeasurable power" was in the context of when they fought her and now they need to deal with two other Ōtsutsuki. Sasuke clearly stated that their suspicions were correct and Kaguya was amassing an army because of Momoshiki and Kinshiki. All 4 adaptations (film, novel, manga and anime) made it clear that Kaguya didn't feel her power was enough for the pair.

You're using a scenario where Momoshiki couldn't use any of his abilities to make him sound weak. Momoshiki never started to lose ground against Darui and Gaara. He evaded and blocked all of their attempts at exploiting his weakness. As I said before, Boruto attacking Momoshiki is no different from Sakura attacking Kaguya. Both of them were able to defeat their opponents with Naruto and Sasuke's help.


Asura barracuda said:


> Urashiki defeated Sasuke straight up, took his chakra and then beat the Kages whom Momoshiki couldn't face head on even in his Transformed state.
> 
> Gaara who is the second strongest Kage and then Chojuro.
> 
> ...


Momoshiki's Tailed Beast Bomb would have gone through Naruto's Kurama Avatar to defeat him. Urashiki has no feats whatsoever that proves he's anywhere close to that level since his best feat is defeating a chakra-drained Sasuke, which amounts to nothing since Kinshiki pressured Sasuke in all three of their encounters. Naruto's Kurama Avatar fought Momoshiki's Monkey Rock and he couldn't last for two panels before he got overwhelmed. Monkey Rock could had done more damage to Naruto's Kurama Avatar had Sasuke not intervened.


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## Asura barracuda (Aug 18, 2022)

Goku said:


> Had it been one on one, Shin would had gotten crisped by a basic Fireball Jutsu from a chakra-drained Sasuke that was going easy on him. That's outright embarrassing. Sasuke pulled out his Perfect Susanoo after his ocular powers came back.



Sasuke had a one on one with shin.

It ended with his sword getting grabbed and he having to resort to Ameno to try a blindside attack on Shin.

Then Shins Occular powers outricked Sasukes occular powers.

That's how the fight ended.




Goku said:


> Chojuro and Kurotsuchi tagged Kinshiki with their jutsu after *he was paralyzed by Sasuke's Chidori.*



This never happened, Kinshiki hit Sasuke away after the Chidori and then he was negged.

Chojuro was the Kage whom had been facing Kinshiki since the very beginning before Sasuke interfered.

And he wasn't swiftly defeated too like you say, he clashed head on with Kinshiki and evaded everything from Kinshiki.

Chojuro was the one who willingly made himself open for Kinshiki so Kurotsuchi could blast the fucker away.

But the fact that Chojuro was smiling and having fun shows that none of them took Kinshiki as a threat.

I mean did you see how Chojuros expression changed when Urashiki war the one he faced?

Even Gaara too, that's what it means to be a threat.




Goku said:


> Sasuke starts with close quarters combat in all of his fights. He'll lose by the time he gets close to Boro.




Sasuke with the EMS activated in all his fights, if Saradas two tomoe could see the virus and even survive them on her own long before Mitsuki interfered then I'm quite sure Sasuke would have straight up seen the virus and identified what it was.




Goku said:


> Boruto's clones couldn't react to Momoshiki's attacks, it was only when the clone activated the Jōgan. Based on that alone, the Jōgan does amp your stats.



Nope, Borutos clones were fine. They were serving their purpose as distractions so that Boruto loads the gun long enough.

And Jogan still doesn't amp stats at all, we've seen the power in action five times or more in the anime.

We've even seen Boruto use the Jogan in conjunction with V1 Karma and beat some pirate with it.

Stats still weren't amped.







Goku said:


> Naruto and Sasuke mentioning Kaguya's "immeasurable power" was in the context of when they fought her and now they need to deal with two other Ōtsutsuki



Sasuke spoke in present tense   



*Is* and *was* are not the same thing. 





Goku said:


> Sasuke clearly stated that their suspicions were correct and Kaguya was amassing an army because of Momoshiki and Kinshiki. All 4 adaptations (film, novel, manga and anime) made it clear that Kaguya didn't feel her power was enough for the pair.



All four adaptations also made it clear the Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Urashiki didn't even know that a Divine fruit had been harvested on earth.

All four Adaptations had Momoshiki talk cocky and call everyone inferior creatures yet he was humbled immediately by everyone he ever faced.

He couldn't even face old Man Bee alone and had to use Kinshiki to Jump Bee.

Such strength indeed.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Asura barracuda (Aug 18, 2022)

Goku said:


> You're using a scenario where Momoshiki couldn't use any of his abilities to make him sound weak. Momoshiki never started to lose ground against Darui and Gaara. He evaded and blocked all of their attempts at exploiting his weakness. As I said before, Boruto attacking Momoshiki is no different from Sakura attacking Kaguya. Both of them were able to defeat their opponents with Naruto and Sasuke's help.




Actually both sides were equally restricted.

The Kages were the ones whom had to use Taijutsu instead of blasting away.

Meanwhile Momoshiki had just finished a feast of Kurama chakra, so the notion that he had nothing in the tank is false.


Also Momoshiki didn't face Gaara, that wouldn't have ended well for him.

Darui was the one who gave chase.




Goku said:


> Naruto's Kurama Avatar fought Momoshiki's Monkey Rock and he couldn't last for two panels before he got overwhelmed.



A drained avatar and also drained Naruto does not equate to Narutos real power.

His monkey golemn is only physicallly stronger than the Kurama avatar which isn't hard as many things are stronger than Kurama in the Naruto world.

If Momoshiki had actually overpowered the tail then you'd have a case for Momoshiki being greater than thr drained avatar since the tail is where Kuramas greatest strength is.


But it was only the hand alone, and Naruto also didn't fire anything to blow up the monkey.


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## Goku (Aug 18, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> Sasuke had a one on one with shin.
> 
> It ended with his sword getting grabbed and he having to resort to Ameno to try a blindside attack on Shin.
> 
> ...


Sasuke used Amenotejikara to dodge in mid-air. Shin grabbing Sasuke's sword is bad news when he could electrocute him with Chidori.


Asura barracuda said:


> This never happened, Kinshiki hit Sasuke away after the Chidori and then he was negged.
> 
> Chojuro was the Kage whom had been facing Kinshiki since the very beginning before Sasuke interfered.
> 
> ...


Kinshiki never hit away Sasuke after he got struck by his Chidori and there's nothing that suggests Chojuro willingly allowed himself to be nearly killed. He was visibly shocked and sweating when Kinshiki disarmed his sword.


Asura barracuda said:


> Sasuke with the EMS activated in all his fights, if Saradas two tomoe could see the virus and even survive them on her own long before Mitsuki interfered then I'm quite sure Sasuke would have straight up seen the virus and identified what it was.


Sarada didn't engage Boro and she didn't realize it right off the bat. Mitsuki had to show her the virus and ask her to put all her focus on her Sharingan like a microscope to see it.


Asura barracuda said:


> Nope, Borutos clones were fine. They were serving their purpose as distractions so that Boruto loads the gun long enough.
> 
> And Jogan still doesn't amp stats at all, we've seen the power in action five times or more in the anime.
> 
> ...


Momoshiki easily defeated his clones. Only one clone with the Jōgan reacted to Momoshiki. The only logical conclusion is that the Jōgan made the clone stronger. There would be no point of that scene if the Jōgan did nothing to that clone.


Asura barracuda said:


> Actually both sides were equally restricted.
> 
> The Kages were the ones whom had to use Taijutsu instead of blasting away.
> 
> ...


Momoshiki converts the chakra he absorbs into chakra pills for later use. Darui couldn't land a single hit on Momoshiki. All of his attacks were either blocked or evaded.


Asura barracuda said:


> Sasuke spoke in present tense
> 
> 
> 
> *Is* and *was* are not the same thing.


Ok? The whole context of that scene is that they dealt with Kaguya and now they're going to deal with two other Ōtsutsuki. 





Asura barracuda said:


> All four adaptations also made it clear the Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Urashiki didn't even know that a Divine fruit had been harvested on earth.
> 
> All four Adaptations had Momoshiki talk cocky and call everyone inferior creatures yet he was humbled immediately by everyone he ever faced.
> 
> ...


I'm talking about Kaguya's opinion and her own actions. Last time I've checked, Momoshiki one shotted Killer Bee in his Tailed Beast Mode.


Asura barracuda said:


> A drained avatar and also drained Naruto does not equate to Narutos real power.
> 
> His monkey golemn is only physicallly stronger than the Kurama avatar which isn't hard as many things are stronger than Kurama in the Naruto world.
> 
> ...


The Kurama Avatar is Naruto going all out and he was getting overwhelmed by Monkey Rock. Naruto using a Tailed Beast Bomb would risk the chance of Momoshiki absorbing it and sending back stronger.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 18, 2022)

Id love for just one of the "Teens are stronger" camp to actually explain how theyeve done anything remotely superior to Narutos feats in The Last or the feats from the Jigen fight

Which even Boruto downplayers as big as fucking @Raiken admit is AT LEAST a fight on par with the Juudara fight

So like

What evidence yall workin with exactly

I dont want damage control...I want a feat or a statement please.

Would love to see it

Cuz I read the manga and the databooks and the novels and I fucking promise you theres nothing in either of em that points to the Teens having anything on that level of performance


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## Raiken (Aug 18, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> that points to the Teens having anything on that level of performance


On what level?


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 18, 2022)

Raiken said:


> On what level?





WorldsStrongest said:


> anything remotely superior to Narutos feats in *The Last* or the feats from the Jigen fight


AKA the things youve been stonewalling 

For years in the case of the bold


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## Raiken (Aug 18, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> AKA the things youve been stonewalling
> 
> For years in the case of the bold


Being completely fair, I honestly believe there's arguments for both sides, though I don't know why you can never see our point of view. We haven't just made it all up... there is real evidence and valid points there.

Though the people claiming they're only as strong or weaker than their Pre-Rikudou selves are generally just trolling.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 18, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Being completely fair, I honestly believe there's arguments for both sides


Well thats vastly more reasonable than Ive seen you claim in the past

And more than I give you credit for


Raiken said:


> though I don't know why you can never see our point of view


Because theres literally nothing at all to even imply they are weaker 


*Spoiler*: _Rant_ 



Theres not a single line of comparison between their WA versions and Adult versions, and as I just pointed out, the sheer scale and spectacle of their TL feats eclipse that of anything in the entire Naruto manga...Its even above what Kaguya herself managed to do in sheer scale.

Now obviously not above what Kaguya is actually capable of in the narrative (as given time, her ETSB was going to destroy an entire time/space the size of a planet, which is much bigger than what happens in TL) but its bigger AND more potent than anything she actually displays.

Add to this, a point of weakness for WA Sasuke is highlighted in his rookie handling of the Rinnegan, which he has entirely mastered as an Adult. He has better S/T use and not to mention can even invoke fucking KKG through the Rinnegans ability to access all nature releases.

And Naruto receives an additional half of Kurama in addition, and Sasuke is noted as still equal to the kid, once again implying progress on both sides and an INCREASE in power.

Further, the narrative REPEATEDLY hypes *Naruto* as THE single strongest Shinobi in all of history. And this isnt movie only or some shit...This is in every medium. This line is in the movies, the anime, the manga and the novels. And this isnt coming from a nobody who doesnt know what they are talking about, like some fodder new Gen Genin or something...Naw fam. Fucking Orochimaru states this. The genius research chad. Who saw Juubi Jin Obito and Madara swinging their dicks around. Orochimaru states outright that the strongest Shinobi in all of history is Naruto Uzumaki, and that Madara isnt even capable of rivalling his standing...but Sasuke is. This narrative is also corroborated by multiple databook statements.




When you consider that we KNOW they retain all of their Six Paths Abilities (as in SPSM and Tomoe Rinnegan) at least, if not every ounce of their chakra they received back then, it gets even more ridiculous to assert they are weaker.

And finally...Theres the feats. Which are on another level.

Tomoe Rinnegan/SPSM amped PS/100% Kurama respectively are eons above anything we would have seen in the war, and the Adult bros straight up have better physical standing than these constructs.

Short of sheer blindness, i dont understand how you argue they are weaker.

Based on what?

Chakra level headcanon you cant remotely prove and environmental damage? Environmental damage which contradicts your own scale anyway?

Doesnt work 


Raiken said:


> We haven't just made it all up... there is real evidence and valid points there.


I have yet to see any

I literally just asked for a better feat than whats presented in the Jigen fight and instead I got this sentence

"theres evidence and valid points"

Where tho

Literally where

Show me

Im asking straight up and not being given any

This is leading me to believe its being made up 

What feat does WA Naruto (or Sasuke for that matter) have that is even COMPARABLE, let alone SUPERIOR, to destroying the fucking moon, tanking a Juubidama+ sized explosion in base while at 0% chakra reserves, and eating hits that are strong enough to oneshot a 100% Kurama SPSM amped avatar while in base directly to the face

Where

Where are the WA feats comparable to this

I ask again


Raiken said:


> Though the people claiming they're only as strong or weaker than their Pre-Rikudou selves are generally just trolling.


I mean...Your opinion isnt much better respectfully

Your assertion that they are barely DRSM level doesnt and has never made sense 

Their Jigen feats are in another universe compared to that level of power as are their TL feats

And Im aware you dont like citing the latter, but I also dont need TL at all to prove my point

TL is just icing on the cake


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## Asura barracuda (Aug 18, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Their Jigen feats are in another universe compared to that level of power as are their TL feats
> 
> And Im aware you dont like citing the latter, but I also dont need TL at all to prove my point
> 
> TL is just icing on the cake



The last feats are seriously something I have no idea why you wank this.

The Moon is only as big as Asutralia.

The moon is also hollow.

The Juubi by Toneri Admission is something that possesses far more power than he.

It's literally called unlimited power.

Six paths Naruto at his entrance casually made Multiple Bijudaama with enough power to cover most of the continent.

The God tree covered the entire world seconds.

Toneri has poor Ap to the point that Shikamaru survived his moon busting Tornado.

His laser is trash, a single Kurama made rasengan is what it took to deflect it.

Hinata even has more Chakra than Toneri.

I still seriously don't know why the last, a moon level/Country level feat is being so wanked badly.

A country freaking level feat.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 18, 2022)

Whew boy

Love to see someone who has no clue what they are talking about try and accuse people of downplay


Asura barracuda said:


> The last feats are seriously something I have no idea why you wank this.


Theres no wank involved

Literally look at whats happening in The Last

Its scale trumps anything and everything in the WA of Naruto 

theres a reason that TO THIS DAY among EVERY CALC COMMUNITY ON THE INTERNET, relevance of Naruto in cross debates is entirely dependent on whether or a given character scales to Toneris feats  

Its because they are, mathematically, the single greatest on screen/panel showings of power the series has demonstrated 

People thousands of times smarter than you have been over this and accepted this as fact for the past half decade

Get with the program 


Asura barracuda said:


> The Moon is only as big as Asutralia.


...

I SINCERELY fucking hope you are not suggesting it takes the same amount of energy to destroy Australia as it takes to destroy the moon

Out of curiosity...Mind if I ask how old you are at this juncture?

This feels like, respectfully, something a middle school student AT BEST would assert


Asura barracuda said:


> The moon is also hollow.


This literally doesnt matter

The most impressive factor of all of Toneris feats isnt about how much "moon rock" he cuts or blows up...The most impressive factor (and what actually makes him ABOVE moon level in terms of calcd energy btw) is that he overcomes the moons gravitational binding energy.

Look that term up


This is why, even if we assume the Naruto moon is hollow, and even if we assume the Naruto moon is equal to our own in size, Toneris feat is viewed as impressive. He blatantly exceeds its GBE, which requires a FIXED amount of energy.

You, and every other troll who thinks they discovered fire when they say "BUT ITS HOLLOW DOE" that Ive interacted with over the years, is effectively doing the equivalent of telling me that when an object produces a sonic boom...Its not travelling at mach speeds. Despite that requiring a FIXED amount of speed.

Thats what youre doing 

The Naruto moon is also shown to be much larger than our own moon is as well, even just its core seems to trump our entire satellite in size, but I wont get into that here as I blatantly dont need that argument to bury you on this.


Asura barracuda said:


> The Juubi by Toneri Admission is something that possesses far more power than he.


No

No it isnt

And this line of thinking is nonsense

Juubi > Naruto/Toneri > Controlled Obito > Berserk Obito > Juubi again > Naruto/Toneri again

Is what that line of thinking leads to

Naruto outscales Juubito (at a minimum) and as a result far outscales the mere Juubi by simple math

In arguing the Juubi outscales people like Naruto and Toneri, you are simultaneously arguing the Juubi FAR eclipses even its own fucking Jinchuriki

Which we know is total bullshit 


Asura barracuda said:


> It's literally called unlimited power.


Well hot damn I guess that means Berserk Juubito and everyone stronger than him are > infinity as they massively outscale the Juubi  

Fuck me man 

Narutos busted as shit

We got 4th dimensional beings up in this bitch 

Stop taking hyperbole literally please

Unless you wanna have fucking Temari as a Dragon Ball Super tier character who can destroy entire universes  


Asura barracuda said:


> Toneri has poor Ap


No

No he doesnt

This is mathematically impossible actually as I just went over


Asura barracuda said:


> Shikamaru survived his moon busting Tornado.


No he survived a much weaker attack variation

This is like saying that because Tsunade can destroy Edo Madaras Rib cage Susanoo, that means she can also destroy his Perfect Susanoo. Despite PS being a MUCH more powerful version of the same Jutsu.

See why this is stupid or do I need to keep going?

Golden Wheel Reincarnation =/= Silver Wheel Reincarnation 

This is bottom tier argumentation and top tier dishonest representation

AKA basically all Ive seen from any of my opposition in this entire thread 


Asura barracuda said:


> Hinata even has more Chakra than Toneri.


No she fucking doesnt holy fuck  

Hinata is an ant to him until fucking *Hamura, the dude who inherited HALF OF PEAK KAGUYAS POWER, AND THEN WAS AMPED BY THE YIN SEAL, AND FURTHER AMPED BY THE TENSEIGAN,* grants her his chakra temporarily

Why are you Boruto downplayers so fucking dishonest 

Do you seriously think ANYONE but yourselves falls for this type of bullshit?

Like I get its a really shitty sequel but you dont have to fucking lie about it to force shitty opinions like this


Asura barracuda said:


> I still seriously don't know why the last, a moon level/Country level feat is being so wanked badly.
> 
> A country freaking level feat.


You dont know why its being wanked because you have no idea what youre talking about regarding legit ANY metric of understanding a fucking thing about the feat or ANY of the events of the movie apparently

Thats what this post just showed mr "Hinata has more fucking chakra than an Otsutsuki compared to Kaguya"

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Asura barracuda (Aug 18, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I SINCERELY fucking hope you are not suggesting it takes the same amount of energy to destroy Australia as it takes to destroy the moon
> 
> Out of curiosity...Mind if I ask how old you are at this juncture?
> 
> This feels like, respectfully, something a middle school student AT BEST would assert



What the hell are you talking about?

Does the moon have any durability beyond that of a rock?

It's just a country sized object.

I'm quite sure a country level attack would break it.


Meanwhile in the war arc, Naruto casually crates five Bijudaama that nearly spanned a significant portion of the continent in size, could have vaped the whole thing if Naruto let it happen on ground.




WorldsStrongest said:


> This is why, even if we assume the Naruto moon is hollow, and even if we assume the Naruto moon is equal to our own in size, Toneris feat is viewed as impressive. He blatantly exceeds its GBE, which requires a FIXED amount of energy.
> 
> You, and every other troll who thinks they discovered fire when they say "BUT ITS HOLLOW DOE" that Ive interacted with over the years, is effectively doing the equivalent of telling me that when an object produces a sonic boom...Its not travelling at mach speeds. Despite that requiring a FIXED amount of speed.
> 
> ...



So his tornado did the same thing.

Burst through the moon and outside of it.

Narutos chakra did the same thing.

Yet Shikamaru came out unharmed after taking the attack to the face.

They were even dragged directly into the blades of the tornado yet it didn't even do shit.


Also hol'up. 

The Moon isn't bigger shit.

The Moon is presented the as the same size as ours.

Narutos earth is also not bigger than ours.

We've even seen the moon in Boruto and it's exactly the same as our moon in size and representation.

I don't know where you're trying to her Jupiter sized moon now or something.


The *Only* moon that's actually been presented far bigger than any is Kaguyas moon in the sand dimension.

It was actually very freaking huge as hell.





WorldsStrongest said:


> Well hot damn I guess that means Berserk Juubito and everyone stronger than him are > infinity as they massively outscale the Juubi
> 
> Fuck me man
> 
> ...



Oh please.

Hyperbole my ass.

Toneri flat out called the Juubis destructive power as something that can't be reached or measured.

The Juubi is always directly presented this way.

Kurama even called it this way.


It's the most destructive force of Nature in Naruto, a Juubis power is what the Otsutsuki are hungry for and drain planets for.

Keep deceiving yourse with hyperbole nonsense.




WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> 
> No he doesnt
> 
> This is mathematically impossible actually as I just went over.



Sure thing.

Narutos getting stabbed left and right With Blades, deltas legs.

Even Kawakis hands which is less durable than a normal sword can injure Naruto.

Dude got ran through by Delta.

I'm sure her kick can destroy the moon in one go right.
 





WorldsStrongest said:


> No she fucking doesnt holy fuck
> 
> Hinata is an ant to him until fucking *Hamura, the dude who inherited HALF OF PEAK KAGUYAS POWER, AND THEN WAS AMPED BY THE YIN SEAL, AND FURTHER AMPED BY THE TENSEIGAN,* grants her his chakra temporarily
> 
> ...




You... you literally said nothing different



All you did is just prove why Hinata has more Chakra than Toneri, at the end of the day the point still remains the same man.

Reactions: Lewd 1 | Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 18, 2022)

Pure garbage post 

Nothing of substance at all in here just fucking word vomit


Asura barracuda said:


> What the hell are you talking about?
> 
> Does the moon have any durability beyond that of a rock?


Imma ask you how old you are again

Cuz this is getting ridiculous 

Might need to lower my initial estimate 


Asura barracuda said:


> I'm quite sure a country level attack would break it.


Thats because you dont know what youre talking about

At all


Asura barracuda said:


> So his tornado did the same thing.


No

no it didnt

So not only do you not know what GBE is or how it works, you also dont know the difference between part of something and all of something

Interesting

Silver wheel affects a very small portion of the moons surface

Thats it

You equating that to destroying the moon or overcoming its GBE is the same shit as suggesting that FRS is planet level because it can destroy a portoin of the planets surface

This is pure fucking trash


Asura barracuda said:


> Oh please.
> 
> Hyperbole my ass.


Its blatantly hyperbole

Just proved that

Like I said its either hyperbole, or you genuinely think people as weak as Berserk juubito are stronger than infinite energy

As they are > the Juubi

Which is retarded, but take your pick I guess  


Asura barracuda said:


> Sure thing.
> 
> Narutos getting stabbed left and right With Blades, deltas legs.





Asura barracuda said:


> a normal sword can injure Naruto.


Normal sword can injure JJ Madara too

Who you claim is > infinite strength per your above logic regarding your shitty attempt to wank the Juubi over Toneri

So in no world is this an antifeat even by your own logic  


Asura barracuda said:


> You... you literally said nothing different


You: Hinata has greater chakra than Toneri

Me: Hamuras chakra > Toneris chakra >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hinatas chakra

"You literally said nothing different"

Log off

Back to fucking tiktok

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 18, 2022)

Sparks said:


> People really think that Kishimoto would have Naruto attain his dream of becoming the Hokage, be responsible for protecting all the people in the Leaf Village, including his own wife and children, against newly evolving and modern threats, and yet be tiers weaker than he was nearly two decades earlier.
> 
> It's fucking laughable when you have Jigen (who has watered down powers of Isshiki) casually shitdiff 6T Rinengan/EMS and SPSM/100% Kurama empowered Sasuke and Naruto (the former top tier powers of the verse) at the same time, and then have two tiers of cyborgs that are stronger than that (Ada/Daemon >> Unlimited Code > Jigen), with Prime Isshiki being even above that. It's not that Naruto and Sasuke's powers got weaker, it's just their gains are insufficient to contest threats that greatly surpass both of them outright.
> 
> ...



Love how this post got WorldsStrongest's seal of approval  

Seriously, though. Absolute facts

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 18, 2022)

I want negs back so bad

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Asura barracuda (Aug 18, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> 
> no it didnt
> 
> ...



Wait am I missing something here?

The laser didn't destroy the moon, it cut it in half.

And small portion of the moon's surface now?

It made a massive hole in it.

And then kept going further even after bursting through the moon.

Silver and Golden wheel did the same thing.

They burst through the moon, it's all the same point.

The laser cut through it.

Meanwhile the tornado drilled through it.








WorldsStrongest said:


> Its blatantly hyperbole
> 
> Just proved that
> 
> ...



A Juubi Jinchuriki is literally the Juubis power being focused.

The Eight tails stated the Juubi learnt how to control it's power instead of just throwing it around wildly.

It's the same Juubis power that's being used here so what's the difference?

The Juubi is greater than the Juubi, Juubi surpasses itself.

Even a Baby Juubi is able to give Isshiki enough power to bring out more than 60% of himself.

The Juubis power is always constantly referred to as such.





WorldsStrongest said:


> Normal sword can injure JJ Madara too
> 
> Who you claim is > infinite strength per your above logic regarding your shitty attempt to wank the Juubi over Toneri
> 
> So in no world is this an antifeat even by your own logic



A Kusanagi with Sasukes chakra along with the seals chakra streaming through it is what pierced Madara.

Then also the fact that Sasuke teleported the sword into Madara is very much cool.

There's nothing here to debunk.


And the Juubi is far above Toneri.

Kuramas power alone is greater than Toneri.

Infact the eight tails has more power than Toneri, they were gonna use the eight tails power to blow up the freaking moon and send it to another dimension entirely.

That's wayyy more Chakra/Power than Toneri can produce or even absorb.









WorldsStrongest said:


> You: Hinata has greater chakra than Toneri
> 
> Me: Hamuras chakra > Toneris chakra >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hinatas chakra
> 
> ...



Eww, stop trying to send me where you belong.



Hinata still has greater chakra than Toneri too by the way, they're powerup were both handouts so I don't even know what your entire point was.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sparks (Aug 18, 2022)

Australia defeats Base moon with an amped Tim Tam Slam.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Creative 1


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## qwrty (Aug 19, 2022)

You know common sense would tell you adults would win, but common sense isn't so common in narutobattledome

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4 | Funny 1 | Disagree 3


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## Sparks (Aug 19, 2022)

qwrty said:


> You know common sense would tell you adults would win, but common sense isn't so common in narutobattledome


That's my line, sir.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 19, 2022)

qwrty said:


> You know common sense would tell you adults would win, but common sense isn't so common in narutobattledome


Dont forget to vote good sir

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Raiken (Aug 20, 2022)

When they lie and says no one here believes Teens are stronger.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Lewd 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 20, 2022)

Raiken said:


> When they lie and says no one here believes Teens are stronger.


When they (referring to me Im assuming)  tell the truth and say when they ask for evidence of Teen superiority or peerage we get no answers or citations and yall just run away after voting 

Youve done it like 3 times in this thread alone

After admitting you can see it going either way no less

So really you need to change your vote good sir

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sage King (Aug 21, 2022)

Raiken said:


> When they lie and says no one here believes Teens are stronger.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Yagami Uchiha (Aug 22, 2022)

Adult versions should’ve been stronger, but if we look at their feats, then I gotta say that I’m much more impressed by their WA versions. I get all the Momoshiki>Kaguya scaling people use, and I’m not saying that it’s wrong, but I just feel like the author(s) nerfed them in Boruto. Whether it was intentional or not is up in the air. Also, their SP status is unclear.

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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