# Itachi vs Pain



## Matty (Jun 9, 2015)

Area: Grassy Field
Distance: 75 Meters
Restrictions: None
Knowledge: None
Mindset: IC

Itachi is fully healthy. Nagato is fully healthy but controlling the 6 paths. Who takes it?


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## Mercurial (Jun 9, 2015)

The Six Paths, definitely.


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## Trojan (Jun 9, 2015)

Pain wins (low) mid - difficult at most. 

The Animal path could potentially solo by draining itachi's chakra will the of his summons.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 9, 2015)

Nagato being healthy might improve Pain's performance a bit too much. Either way - Itachi can't beat Pain in neutral conditions in my opinion. Sharingan genjutsu is mostly negated, Amaterasu must be very carefully used to not be wasted on Preta/ST/Hell Path reanimation. Stamina difference too. High Diff win for Pain. vs Edo Itachi it would likely be different though.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 9, 2015)

Itachi will probably get a couple through careful use of bunshins and mangekyo.  But he needs full knowledge on the Paths, and it needs to be the version we saw vs Jiraiya and Konoha for him to stand a fair shot at anything more.


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## Icegaze (Jun 9, 2015)

repeat of itachi vs minato basically 
everytime this thread of done more people say pain wins 
doesnt matter how many times its done

nothign has changed here


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## ARGUS (Jun 9, 2015)

Pein wins, mid diff 
unfortunately for itachi, he has nothing on CT or CST 
preta+deva troll his ninjutsu completely, and his genjutsu is as good as useless against dead corpses being controlled from an outer medium, 
which only leaves the option for taijutsu in which he gets raped considering there is 6 of them ith shared vision and rods to abuse him with,


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 9, 2015)

Pain wins with low/mid difficulty. Itachi admitted inferiority to Jiraiya, who was defeated by Pain.


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2015)

Itachi can have a chance to beat Pain-Rikudo under skewed conditions, but he can't beat Nagato period. Unfortunately here with no knowledge, he stands no chance even against Pain-Rikudo.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 9, 2015)

For the billionth time, Pain Rikudou rapestomps Itachi. Healthy Nagato rapestomps Itachi harder.


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## Jad (Jun 9, 2015)

Does Itachi have the Springtime of Youth ?


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## Six (Jun 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Nagato being healthy might improve Pain's performance a bit too much. Either way - Itachi can't beat Pain in neutral conditions in my opinion. Sharingan genjutsu is mostly negated, Amaterasu must be very carefully used to not be wasted on Preta/ST/Hell Path reanimation. Stamina difference too. High Diff win for Pain. vs Edo Itachi it would likely be different though.



Where has it ever been shown let alone implied that the rinnegan is immune to Sharingan genjutsu


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## Alex Payne (Jun 9, 2015)

^Rinnegan doesn't have genjutsu defense imo. Itachi's level genjutsu at the least. It's just that Tsukuyomi is useless on Path. Fake reality genjutsu is mostly useless due to Shared Vision. Paralyze genjutsu can be broken by Nagato resetting control.


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## Icegaze (Jun 9, 2015)

nagato eyes are madars 
why would itachi genjutsu affect madara eyes?


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## Alex Payne (Jun 9, 2015)

Same way Itachi's eyes affected enhanced Itachi's eyes. Not to mention that Path's eyes aren't Nagato's eyes.


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## Trojan (Jun 9, 2015)

Itachi's Genjutsu is useless against the Rinnegan, especially dead bodies that do not even feel pain. 
Pain would stomps him.


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Same way Itachi's eyes affected enhanced Itachi's eyes. Not to mention that Path's eyes aren't Nagato's eyes.



I never understood this sentiment. Itachi literally said all you need to counter Tsukuyomi is MS, yet Madara's Rinnegan isn't enough to counter Tsukuyomi. That makes no sense to me personally. Nagato should be able to break Tsukuyomi w/ absolute ease having Madara Uchiha's eyes a  Dojutsu two stages above Itachi's and Uzamaki energy to power them. The Paths are the same thing as well, since Rinnegan's powers are transfered to them.


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## Empathy (Jun 9, 2015)

It's weird that Rinnegan users are immune to _Mugen Tsukuyomi_, but not regular _Tsukuyomi_, or all genjutsu for that matter.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 9, 2015)

Itachi too skilled 



Turrin said:


> Itachi literally said all you need to counter Tsukuyomi is MS


Itachi said a lot of different things. Most of them lies. And wasn't his statement about Sharingan-user with the same blood? Both eyes and the rest of Uchiha goodness.


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## N120 (Jun 9, 2015)

Pain wins.


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## Six (Jun 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> ^Rinnegan doesn't have genjutsu defense imo. Itachi's level genjutsu at the least. It's just that Tsukuyomi is useless on Path. Fake reality genjutsu is mostly useless due to Shared Vision. Paralyze genjutsu can be broken by Nagato resetting control.


It doesn't, so long you have chakra running through you, genjutsu can affect you. Tsukuyomi is not useless. From what Karachi implied when he yelled out for Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes that his genjutsu affects multiple targets so long they are looking at him.
So tsukuyomi could very be an option just like the frog song was. Tsukuyomi fucks with them just like frog song and since Itachi knows about the 6 paths, I doubt he'll be carless and have the x number caught in tsukuyomi to be revived.


Icegaze said:


> nagato eyes are madars
> why would itachi genjutsu affect madara eyes?


Because Madara is not immune to genjutsu. As long as you're living and have chakra in your body genjutsu can affect you. It doesn't matter how strong your eyes are, genjutsu affects you. Frog song. Unless you can canonically prove that Madara is immune to genjutsu.


Empathy said:


> It's weird that Rinnegan users are immune to _Mugen Tsukuyomi_, but not regular _Tsukuyomi_, or all genjutsu for that matter.



Yea check out frog song


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## Trojan (Jun 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Itachi too skilled
> 
> 
> Itachi said a lot of different things. *Most of them lies*. And wasn't his statement about Sharingan-user with the same blood? Both eyes and the rest of Uchiha goodness.



His statement Tsukuyomi is also included. There is nothing to prove that it's any different about the other type of Genjutsu, and it was only used on Kakashi and Sasuke, the later broke it with regular sharingan.


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## Six (Jun 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Itachi's Genjutsu is useless against the Rinnegan, especially dead bodies that do not even feel pain.
> Pain would stomps him.


Yea check out frog song.
Yeah try again, if Itachi gets stomped idk what Minato could do with his 1 trick attacks. Probably lose another arm, that is if he can even get close to any pains.


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## Trojan (Jun 9, 2015)

What does Frog Song and Minato have to do with anything exactly? 
I don't remember I mentioned anything about them. 

So, I suggest you
1- visit a doctor for your eyes
2- stay on topic.


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## StickaStick (Jun 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Itachi said a lot of different things. Most of them lies. And wasn't his statement about Sharingan-user with the same blood? Both eyes and the rest of Uchiha goodness.


That's why context is key in a situation like this. Let's consider that Itachi wanted to lose to Sasuke for varying reasons so it does make complete sense that he would implore Sasuke to obtain MS so as to overcome, among other things, his Tsukuyomi. Not doing so put Itachi in a position where he probably had to improvise a bit more then he would have liked. And that's _without _considering that Sasuke avoided being hit by Itachi's Tsukuyomi anyway with his 3T, although that point is more up to debate.

Basically, there's no reason not to believe Itachi meant that MS is all that is needed, along with the requisite amount of skill, to break it.

Edit: Oh yeah, and Pain takes it low to mid diff.


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## Turrin (Jun 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Itachi said a lot of different things. Most of them lies. And wasn't his statement about Sharingan-user with the same blood? Both eyes and the rest of Uchiha goodness.


Uzamaki blood is better than Uchiha blood as far as it comes to powering Dojutsu and Nagato has eye that are two evolutions higher than Itachi's. If that doesn't qualify almost nothing short of God-Tier does, which Tsukuyomi really has nether the feats or the hype to support.


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## Six (Jun 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Itachi's *Genjutsu is useless against the Rinnegan, especially dead bodies* that do not even feel pain.
> Pain would stomps him.





Hussain said:


> What does Frog Song and Minato have to do with anything exactly?
> I don't remember I mentioned anything about them.
> 
> So, I suggest you
> ...



Frog song is a genjutsu, you put the two together, unless you need help.


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## Trojan (Jun 9, 2015)

No, you need help. 
It wouldn't have taken so much effort of you, to actually continue the sentence, would it? 

Tsukuyomi does damage the mind and all the shit. Pain is dead, and he is only being controlled by Nagato's chakra, so that effect of Tsukuyomi is not going to happen here. As for Pain being effected by Frog Song is also
has nothing to do with Tsukuyomi as that thing is a completely different type of Genjutsu. 

We know for a fact the eyes-power is helpless against the sound which does make sense as the sound has to do with ears, not eyes. As such, MS, EMS, and the Rinnegan were helpless regardless of how skilful the user may be at Genjutsu. Just like how Tayuya fodderstompped itachi & Sasuke, and without each other's help they wouldn't have made it.

However, since itachi's genjutsu is based on the eyes, its case is completely different. I thought that was obvious.


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## Six (Jun 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> No, you need help.
> It wouldn't have taken so much effort of you, to actually continue the sentence, would it?
> 
> Tsukuyomi does damage the mind and all the shit. Pain is dead, and he is only being controlled by Nagato's chakra, so that effect of Tsukuyomi is not going to happen here. As for Pain being effected by Frog Song is also
> ...



You do realize that all genjutsu do the same thing right? Despite what type of genjutsu is used sound/visual/touch the end result is controlling the chakra in the other persons body. The frog song genjutsu completely immobilized the 3 pain body's. Having stronger eyes does not mean you are resistant to the visual just of a lower eye. Hence the pebble and shrunken statement.

Sound genjutsu is definitely the most dangerous genjutsu because you don't have to be near the person to be under it's effects. And last time I checked, it was a sage enhanced Kabuto using Tayuya's  sage enhanced genjutsu.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 9, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Uzamaki blood is better than Uchiha blood as far as it comes to powering Dojutsu and Nagato has eye that are two evolutions higher than Itachi's. If that doesn't qualify almost nothing short of God-Tier does, which Tsukuyomi really has nether the feats or the hype to support.


Nagato is a fake dojutsu user. With no idea that his eyes were previously Sharingans. Sharingan abilities were specifically made distinct from normal Rinnegan.



So far everything genjutsu-related is from Rinnegan+Tomoe. Something Nagato lacks. And has no idea about.

Sharingan isn't simply a previous version of Rinnegan. Kishi made quite a mess with dojutsu but it is rather clear that their relationship isn't a straightforward one.


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## Six (Jun 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Nagato is a fake dojutsu user. With no idea that his eyes were previously Sharingans. Sharingan abilities were specifically made distinct from normal Rinnegan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude, please stop. You're making sense, but the haters in this section will never accept what you or any pro Itachi poster has to say.

You can give them evidence as clear as this and they will just ignore it and twist your words around or bring something else up.

It's best not to waste your energy typing and just let them think what they think because you're not going to change that.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 9, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Nagato is a fake dojutsu user. With no idea that his eyes were previously Sharingans. Sharingan abilities were specifically made distinct from normal Rinnegan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wrong. 

You cited Kayuga using a totally different Doujutsu. Apart from that, everything else you said makes no sense. Kabuto explicitly said the Rinnegan was the Sharingan's final stop. That is the clear and straightforward relationship. 

We just didn't see Madara use Rinnegan Genjutsu, going by Sasuke using it on Sakura and Madara wanting to play around with the Gokage, we know why he didn't.


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## LostSelf (Jun 9, 2015)

The huge difference between Tsuyuyomi and Frog is that Frog song can capture multiple targets at once. Tsukuyomi, sadly, can't.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 9, 2015)

Tsukuyomi is useless against Pain Rikudou. What good is getting Pain Rikudou in an illusion when the real puppet master won't be affected. That's just a waste of chakra on a jutsu which wouldn't do anything.
What mental torture will Nagato suffer not even being in the battlefield.

As Itachi said, the basic Sharingan has some resistance to Tsukuyomi. So it stands to reason that the higher the ladder you go, the more resistance you get. MS is probably got the perfect resistance since Itachi said he'd lose to MS Sasuke. EMS probably can casually brush off Tsukuyomi, which means Tsukuyomi is probably nothing to the Rinnegan. 

As for Nagato himself, he was considered to be a Rikudou a genetic trait which was only in Hagoromo, Madara and even Tobi himself. (You can add Sasuke there now.)
We know a Rikudou = having Senju and Uchiha powers/chakra. The Senju clan had no problems with the MS, meaning they had someway to resist Tsukuyomi too... Nagato, like Sasuke, Madara and Obito possesses both chakra due to some modifications (unlike Hagoromo who had it naturally). 
So it means to this special few shinobi, post mods (in Sasuke's case) Tsukuyomi is a worthless jutsu to use. 

Of course, I remember reading some here (you know who you are) saying Itachi would solo Hagoromo with Tsukuyomi.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 9, 2015)

I have never seen anyone who argued pro-Itachi in this match-up to offer a feasible counter against Chō Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei.

There is literally nothing Itachi can do to survive against those techniques.

Itachi, healthy or not, isn't on Pain's level. Never has been. Edo Itachi is a different story, but then, Edo Nagato is on another level from him, as well.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 9, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I have never seen anyone who argued pro-Itachi in this match-up to offer a feasible counter against Chō Shinra Tensei



An ass-ton of ninja survived it with tiny Katsuya backpacks.

So v4 Susano'o with a legendary item can survive it. 

Deva is powerless afterwards. 

Amaterasu takes him out.

Itachi _10/10 wins_ if Deva uses Chō Shinra Tensei.



ATastyMuffin said:


> and Chibaku Tensei.



Deva is powerless after forming the orb.

One Amaterasu for Deva, one for the core.

Stalemate _at worst._

But most likely, the core burns and/or Itachi cuts out of CT.

Nagato is on Itachi's level. Pain is not. (Slower, weaker, linear.)


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 9, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I have never seen anyone who argued pro-Itachi in this match-up to offer a feasible counter against Chō Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei.
> 
> There is literally nothing Itachi can do to survive against those techniques.
> 
> Itachi, healthy or not, isn't on Pain's level. Never has been. Edo Itachi is a different story, but then, Edo Nagato is on another level from him, as well.



That's because anyone pro Itachi grossly overestimates Itachi's skills while grossly underestimating Pain's skills.

Forget CST or CT, how on earth will Itachi overcome Jiraiya's situation with Human, Animal and Preta Paths. Preta Path makes all Ninjutsu useless (reinforced by two databooks and the manga repeatedly). The shared vision makes Taijutsu (on Itachi's calibre) suicide. 
Genjutsu is meaningless against the Paths as they're in the team (already meeting a prerequisite to fighting the Sharingan in addition to having an eye which is the max level the Sharingan can reach). 

Three Paths can put Itachi in a situation like Jiraiya, wherein he doesn't know what he'll do. Unlike Jiraiya, Itachi's reputation gives Pain reason to not underestimate Itachi in Genjutsu like he did with Jiraiya. So think of Jiraiya who had no Genjutsu underestimation factor... that's the situation Itachi faces. Jiraiya thought he was finished if he didn't have that factor. 

Bear in mind this is all with just 2 Pain bodies sharing their vision. In Itachi's case, it would be 3 Pains. Bring in all the other Paths and you double the shared vision, triple what Jiriaya had to face. 

Now you brought up how no-one has sensible counters for Itachi dying to CT or CST, but I'd say no-one has such a counter to God Realm just using BT while Preta negates any jutsu... while the other Paths take care of any other projectiles... while Pain decides to kill Itachi with Human or Demon Paths. 

You're absolutely right in saying Pain is leagues above living Itachi, healthy or not. What a lot of people forget is that Edo Itachi is actually stronger than Itachi; he won't get tired, has no limiting chakra reserves and can use Susanoo without a cost.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> An ass-ton of ninja survived it with tiny Katsuya backpacks.
> 
> So v4 Susano'o with a legendary item can survive it.
> 
> ...



Katsuyu has an elastic body and is naturally resistant, if not immune, to physical force.

The same can't be said for any form of Susanoo, much less an item that doesn't provide 360-degree protection. It straight-up doesn't have the feats for it.

So, bye-bye, Itachi.



> Deva is powerless after forming the orb.



Based off what?



> One Amaterasu for Deva, one for the core.



Deva retained his powers even after Chibaku Tensei ended, without a hitch.

The fact that he wasn't affected by the core's gravitational pull lends credence to the notion that he still has his abilities whilst using the technique.

Secondly, why would Itachi even immediately use Amaterasu on the core? He didn't do so against Nagato. You're pulling extremely unlikely scenarios out of your ass with ridiculous mental gymnastics to justify as possible way Itachi wins.



> But most likely, the core burns and/or *Itachi cuts out of CT.*
> 
> Nagato is on Itachi's level. Pain is not. (Slower, weaker, linear.)



Or, he gets trapped by kilometers of mountainous rock that even Six-Tailed Naruto's bomb couldn't put a dent in. He suffocates several minutes in, or fails to maintain a full-sized Susanoo within ten.

Bye-bye, Itachi.


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## Ersa (Jun 9, 2015)

Technically the mirror has no physical form.



Maybe it's elastic too 

Still I've always been of the consensus that sickly Itachi loses to Pain, Edo Itachi beats Pain and we have zero idea how a "healthy" Itachi does.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 9, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Technically the mirror has no physical form.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The mirror is a chakra mirror and it takes the form of a shield. 

Edo Itachi beating Pain is still debatable. He still faces the problems other Itachi variants face, only he won't drop dead after using the MS about 5 times and doesn't have limiting stamina. Plus there's also the fact he can take hits. Though depending on how close he is to Nagato, Outer Path stake stabs still take him down. Especially if they come from Nagato.

Healthy Itachi is just like sick Itachi who won't cough blood and get hit with shuriken attacks he should dodge as Zetsu said. Healthy Itachi isn't some unknown character, Zetsu clearly specified the difference between the two.


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## Ersa (Jun 9, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The mirror is a chakra mirror and it takes the form of a shield.
> 
> Edo Itachi beating Pain is still debatable. He still faces the problems other Itachi variants face, only he won't drop dead after using the MS about 5 times and doesn't have limiting stamina. Plus there's also the fact he can take hits. Though depending on how close he is to Nagato, Outer Path stake stabs still take him down. Especially if they come from Nagato.
> 
> Healthy Itachi is just like sick Itachi who won't cough blood and get hit with shuriken attacks he should dodge as Zetsu said. Healthy Itachi isn't some unknown character, Zetsu clearly specified the difference between the two.


I don't buy Katsuyu's "elastic" body being better then a mirror touted to have divine origins by the author. At the very least I'm inclined to suggest with both the mirror and Susanoo, Itachi could replicate what *mini* Katsuyu did for Konoha citizens. 

I think it's debatable as well, they're probably at the same level in all honesty. Still if he baits out CST, he can tank it with the Mirror, Susanoo and Edo regeneration. Then snipes Deva when he's on cooldown. I'll leave it at that, this isn't Edo Itachi vs. Pain. We're derailing the thread.


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## ZE (Jun 9, 2015)

Sasuke used his rinnegan, not his EMS, to put the bijuus under his genjutsu here
1

It's his best genjutsu feat, and he he felt like he needed to use the rinnegan. And let me remind you Madara said Sasuke's rinnegan was the same as his own. And Nagato's rinnegan were Madara's rinnegan.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 9, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I don't buy Katsuyu's "elastic" body being better then a mirror touted to have divine origins by the author. At the very least I'm inclined to suggest with both the mirror and Susanoo, Itachi could replicate what *mini* Katsuyu did for Konoha citizens.
> 
> I think it's debatable as well, they're probably at the same level in all honesty. Still if he baits out CST, he can tank it with the Mirror, Susanoo and Edo regeneration. Then snipes Deva when he's on cooldown. I'll leave it at that, this isn't Edo Itachi vs. Pain. We're derailing the thread.



The manga and databooks say it is only a chakra shield. Katsuyu's body is made if totally different stuff.

You're right, we can discuss Edo Itachi vs Pain else where.


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Nagato is a fake dojutsu user. .


How is Nagato's Dojutsu Fake. 



> With no idea that his eyes were previously Sharingans. Sharingan abilities were specifically made distinct from normal Rinnegan. So far everything genjutsu-related is from Rinnegan+Tomoe. Something Nagato lacks. And has no idea about.
> Sharingan isn't simply a previous version of Rinnegan. Kishi made quite a mess with dojutsu but it is rather clear that their relationship isn't a straightforward one


It's 2015 and your still perpetuating that made up BS, about someone's ability to cast Genjutsu being equivalent to their ability to break/see through a Genjutsu.... Really AP I expect better. 

And no the Genjutsu abilities were never separated from the Rinnegan. The Rinnegan is the Sharingan, just a step in it's evolution or rather Sharingan is de-evolution of Rinnegan. It's just that the Rinnegan has both Yin and Yang related powers, and to use those powers to the fullest one needs to have mastery over Yin and Yang Release. But Nagato is not an Uchiha and only has Uzamaki powers so he simply has Yang Release, which is why we don't see him using Madara's Genjutsu or Susano'o with Madara's Rinnegan.

However again casting ability is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. The discussion at hand is whether Nagato's Dojutsu can see through or break the Genjutsu, and considering his Dojutsu is eons above Itachi's and the strength of his chakra is eons above Itachi's there is absolutely no reason why he should not be capable of such a feat.

And if you want to talk distinction of Dojutsu. Sasuke's Rinnegan [not Sharingan] is specifically credited with the ability to repel the strongest of all Genjtusu Mugen-Tsukuyomi:
1

Which shows Rinnegan having the ability to repel the Genjutsu of someone who has the same level of Dojutsu, vastly superior chakra, and vastly superior strength. Let alone in the case of Nagato vs Itachi, where his Rinnegan is two stages above Itachi's and his chakra is vastly superior.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 10, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I have never seen anyone who argued pro-Itachi in this match-up to offer a feasible counter against Chō Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei.
> 
> There is literally nothing Itachi can do to survive against those techniques.
> 
> Itachi, healthy or not, isn't on Pain's level. Never has been. Edo Itachi is a different story, but then, Edo Nagato is on another level from him, as well.



CST can be survived with Susano.  Chibaku Tensei has no direct counter.  Cho Shinra tensei also leaves the user super vulnerable before and after.  Pain needed to summon them outside the village.



> It's 2015 and your still perpetuating that made up BS, about someone's ability to cast Genjutsu being equivalent to their ability to break/see through a Genjutsu.... Really AP I expect better.



It's 2015 and you still make flagrant accusations against user's interpretations on a Naruto Forum.


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## Ersa (Jun 10, 2015)

To support Alex Payne's point, Madara reverted to Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan to cast genjutsu on Ei. Certainly along with the information given to us in the Kaguya fight there is merit behind his argument.


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2015)

It's strange that the best genjutsu feats come from the Rinnegan.


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## Ersa (Jun 10, 2015)

_Mugen Tsukuyomi_ was activated by Madara's third eye, Sasuke's Rinnegan genjutsu feats come from his Tomoe-Rinnegan. I certainly can't think of any genjutsu feats from the normal Rinnegan that are better then what Sharingan has achieved. 

I mean there's got to be a reason for this?


Not to mention _Kotoamatsukami_, _Tsukiyomi _are probably the two strongest genjutsu after _Mugen Tsukuyomi_. Both Sharingan techniques.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 10, 2015)

The two rinnegans look different and act different.  I respect that as a rational for claiming they are different.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It's strange that the best genjutsu feats come from the Rinnegan.


  Rinnegan with Tomoes, you mean. Something completely different from Madara's normal Rinnegan. Mugen Tsukuyomi is tied to the third eye. Both Kaguya's and Madara's. Not normal set of eyeballs. And Hagoromo specifically called it Sharingan's powers. 

I am not equating Genjutsu Casting with Genjutsu Defense. I am saying that Sharingan package is specifically said to be in this third Rinnegan with Tomoe. It was made a different dojutsu. Madara jumped to Rinnegan because he had Asura+Indra package. Having EMS wasn't stated to be a requirement iirc. He might have gotten Rinnegan by just having 3-tomoe for all we know. Hell, his EMS is Izuna's eyes - eyes from a not-Indra transmigrant. Try to make sense out of that.

You have all that plus Nagato being a fake. That's enough for me to not give Nagato any Sharingan-related perks. There was nothing in the manga about Nagato or even normal Rinnegan and genjutsu defense. Nothing. Sasuke's protection came from TomoeRinnegan.


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2015)

I always assumed that the Tome Rinnegan and "normal" Rinnegan were the same thing. 

That's probably because they're both called the Rinnegan and nobody ever said anything ever about the Tome version doing anything different.

Even when Madara first sees both Naruto's senjutsu & Sasuke's Rinnegan, he says that he has both powers, despite his Rinnegan not resembling Sasukes.

Add in Sasuke's Tome just disappearing in the Gaiden, and I'm going with Kishi being lazy with the art.


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## Ersa (Jun 10, 2015)

Nah because he made the effort to show the difference between Madara's third eye and regular eyes. It suggests to me he gave it some thought and that Gaiden showing could be an art error, like Sasuke having MS against Tobirama.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 10, 2015)

Itachi activates V4 and proceeds to stomp.

Amaterasu sweeps anyone who isn't Deva or Hungry ghost path.

Itachi mid - high dif.


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## pluuuuffff (Jun 10, 2015)

Without knowledge? Fighting Pain without any knowledge it's complicated. But it's even more complicated when the local it's a grassy field.

Itachi chances relied on perceiving Pain's shared vision. With that, he could do some dust in the ground, fucking their link of vision and finishing them, or at least part of them. 

In this field he has no chances at all. He can't hide like he did when he was Edo Tensei, he can't use tricks, he's fucked.

Pain wins


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 10, 2015)

The thing is, with no knowledge, Deva realm is most likely to just pull Itachi in with BT and assault with Asura and maybe others as well, which results in Itachi activating Susano'o and ripping them like paper tissue.

Lack of knowledge works both ways.


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2015)

Living Itachi probably isn't the type to casually bust out Armored Susano'o as if he's throwing Shuriken. I could maybe get behind it if he was a zombie, but not when it causes immense pain and ruins his eyesight. 

I find it funny that a character built upon unmatched fundamentals & efficiency to compensate for shaky stamina is still debated, even by his fans, as if he were an EoS megazord spammer. 

Living Itachi isn't going to beat Pain. The paths have _far_ too many abilities that are going to end up requiring Mangekyou defenses, meaning Itachi's likely to run out of juice and die before he's killed all of the Paths, some of them potentially multiple times due to Naraka's ability to revive the them. 

Edo Itachi is a better match up and I could see how he'd have a shot. Infinite stamina plays a pretty big role in that.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

@law 
never said madara was immune 

I am saying why would madara eyes be defeated or hindered by a lesser person genjutsu 

makes no sense at all 

he will be caught in itachi genjutsu and then break it while laughing at itachi attempt


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 10, 2015)

Same guy who used Tsukiyomi on 13 year old Sasuke is going to refrain from using MS in a life and death situation. Right, it makes sense 

I think its about time some people finally realized that Itachi staged his fight against Hebi Sasuke, and it is in no way a representation of how he would normally fight. Itachi isn't going to slowly escalate his tempo and only throw the bare minimum that his opponent can deal with. Especially in a scenario where you think Itachi is completely overwhelmed from the start.

If Itachi thinks he needs Susano'o to get out of a situation, then he is going ot use it, regardless of how it effects his eye sight(see amaterasu vs toad stomach). And since all fights in battledome are to death and plot free, it is meaningless expect the same plot/IC limits to apply here.


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Same guy who used Tsukiyomi on 13 year old Sasuke is going to refrain from using MS in a life and death situation. Right, it makes sense



Please point out where I said Itachi would refrain from using the Mangekyou. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> If Itachi thinks he needs Susano'o to get out of a situation, then he is going ot use it



If the alternative is death, then of course he is.

However, using Susano'o to save himself from fatal attacks is different than throwing up Final Susano'o and running at Pain from the get-go. 

Not that Pain couldn't handle that. 

And hell, with similar logic I could just go ahead and say Pain throws Chibaku Tensei at Itachi and calls it a match since Itachi doesn't really have the firepower to deal with that technique.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Please point out where I said Itachi would refrain from using the Mangekyou.


You said something about Susano'o.



> If the alternative is death, then of course he is.
> 
> However, using Susano'o to save himself from fatal attacks is different than throwing up Final Susano'o and running at Pain from the get-go.


He may send a katon or a bunshin or some projectiles to feel him out, but the moment he sees them all get countered with absolute ease, then I don't think using Susano'O is at all OOC.
You can argue that it is more like a necessity here.

We know that Jiraiya immediately opted for SM, knowing that he'd need it against Rinnegan. He probably had a vague idea what it could offer. 
Itachi should at least have the same basic knowledge, considering he said  to Nagato "with your rinnegan and my MS, we can do pretty much anything."
It'd be foolish to expect Itachi to give anything less than his 100%.



> Not that Pain couldn't handle that.



He'd probably have to kite it around, or attempt to get Gakidou close to try to absorb it. But pain lacks the firepower to deal with Susano'O, so there is no way he can directly handle Susano'O. 
We know that even V2 is strong enough to rip through Asura like a cardboard, which happens to be his physically strongest and most resilient path.



> And hell, with similar logic I could just go ahead and say Pain throws Chibaku Tensei at Itachi and calls it a match since Itachi doesn't really have the firepower to handle that technique.


But the logic isn't similar.

Do you think Pain would feel overwhelmed by base Itachi ? What you said would be only possible if that was the case. 

I could see however Pain opting for CST or CT if he feels like he won't be able to deal with Susano'o.


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You said something about Susano'o.



Armored Susano'o is the pinnacle of the Mangekyou's power.

Not the Amaterasu Itachi used on the window or the Tsukuyomi he used on kid Sasuke.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He'd probably have to kite it around, or attempt to get Gakidou close to try to absorb it.



That's a terrible idea.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> But pain lacks the firepower to deal with Susano'O, so there is no way he can directly handle Susano'O.



One decent sized Shinra Tensei and it goes flying. It doesn't look that heavy to me, and it's pretty damn likely that it isn't more massive than all three Gama Toads.

Itachi (and his Susano'o) would get up, but at that point Pain would just start throwing giant animals and missiles with the occasional gravity wave his way, and Itachi'd need to keep Susano'o active to deal with that.

This is where the fight goes downhill for Itachi. Rapidly.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I could see however Pain opting for CST or CT if he feels like he won't be able to deal with Susano'o.



My point was him being concerned about the Mangekyou and deciding to one-shot Itachi with Chibaku Tensei.

I don't think he really even needs to do that, but if the attacks of his Paths somehow fail it would certainly win the fight.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Armored Susano'o is the pinnacle of the Mangekyou's power.
> 
> Not the Amaterasu Itachi used on the window or the Tsukuyomi he used on kid Sasuke.


And genin Sasuke isn't worth a Tsukiyomi. 

Fighting an opponent that he can't beat without Susano'o is enough jusitification for him to use Susano'O.



> That's a terrible idea.


It is still better than trying to fight it head on, given Susano'o's defensive and offensive capabilities shit on everything Pain can dish out, bar CST and CT.



> One decent sized Shinra Tensei and it goes flying. It doesn't look that heavy to me, and it's pretty damn likely that it isn't more massive than all three Gama Toads.


He can anchor himself to the floor and resist it like KN6 did, or like Sasuke resisted Baku's suction. Deva is useless for 5 seconds. Gets hit by Amaterasu or depending on the range, Totsuka and dies.



> Itachi (and his Susano'o) would get up, but at that point Pain would just start throwing giant animals and missiles with the occasional gravity wave his way, and Itachi'd need to keep Susano'o active to deal with that.
> 
> This is where the fight goes downhill. Rapidly.


I don't think anything bar Nagato's big guns is doing much to v4 Susano'o. And everytihng you mentioned can be easily dealt with it. 



> My point was him being concerned about the Mangekyou and deciding to one-shot Itachi with Chibaku Tensei.


I think de-activating the rest of the paths is a pretty risky move here. Itachi is better equipped to deal with a single target. 



> I don't think he really even needs to do that, but if the attacks of his Paths somehow fail it would certainly win the fight.


If everything goes Pain's way, then he might simply outlast Itachi.
But if he is his usual self, agressive and cocky, then it is very likely that he simply loses a few significant paths to Susano'O or Amaterasu and probably can't make a proper comeback after that.


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## ARGUS (Jun 10, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Nagato is a fake dojutsu user.


and how is nagatos rinnegan fake? especially when he has used it to summon things like the Gedo mazo? 
the only thing is, that he isnt the original weilder, thus making him unable to to use its full power



> With no idea that his eyes were previously Sharingans.


yet literally everyone in the manga considers it to be an evolution to the sharingan 
yet for some reason the guy who weilds these eyes doesnt know that? 



> Sharingan abilities were specifically made distinct from normal Rinnegan.
> 
> 
> 
> So far everything genjutsu-related is from Rinnegan+Tomoe. Something Nagato lacks. And has no idea about.


Nope, wrong, very wrong 
Kaguyas eyes and the IT eye is specifically stated to be the Rinne-Sharingan, a different dojutsu to the Rinnegan or the sharingan, 

sasukes eye at the end of  the day is still rinnegan, NOT rinne sharingan, 
the databook and sasuke himself have already confirmed  this 
and the rinnegan has canonically shoown to be immune to the most powerful genjutsu in the manga, 
yet for some reason itll get caught by tsukuyomi? 

as for the tomo well they dont signify anything at all, they have just been manifested due to the rikudos Yin chakra that was added on sasukes sharingan powers
the rinnegan itself is still no different



> Sharingan isn't simply a previous version of Rinnegan. Kishi made quite a mess with dojutsu but it is rather clear that their relationship isn't a straightforward one.


No kishi didnt make a mess, people like to jus put the blaim to support such assumptions 
When he has already established that rinnegan is the next stage to the sharingan, 

and when the manga has already showwed us that to only someone with an equivalent or inferior dojutsu would be vulnearble to the visual genjutsu, 

rinnegan has been stated to be above MS, and has repelled off the strongest genjtusu in the manga, 
there is literally no reason why its susceptible to genjutsu when we would have even the MS be able to hold off an MS genjutsu  



Strategoob said:


> An ass-ton of ninja survived it with tiny Katsuya backpacks.


You mean a CST that was focused on the village itself not pinpointed? 
we have already seen when ST gets focused how powerful it really is, considering it  one shotted 3 giant  toads who have durability well well above a regular shinobi 



> Itachi _10/10 wins_ if Deva uses Chō Shinra Tensei.


Unfortunately CST wipes him off the face of the earth 


> Deva is powerless after forming the orb.
> 
> One Amaterasu for Deva, one for the core.


THe fllames get sent up to the core right away, iitachi would have done this in the manga instead of asking naruto and bee to help him take out the core 



> Stalemate _at worst._
> 
> But most likely, the core burns and/or Itachi cuts out of CT.


Thats assuming that itachis susanoo has the firepower to cut  out CT, whenn it has tanked a KN6 TBB with no ddamage whatsoever, 



> Nagato is on Itachi's level. Pain is not. (Slower, weaker, linear.)


the only thing that slower, weaker and linear is your way of thinking pal 



Alex Payne said:


> Rinnegan with Tomoes, you mean. Something completely different from Madara's normal Rinnegan.


They are both rinnegan, and have pretty much the samme abilitiies 



> Mugen Tsukuyomi is tied to the third eye. Both Kaguya's and Madara's. Not normal set of eyeballs. And Hagoromo specifically called it Sharingan's powers.


No its the rinne sharingan as stated in the databook 
if  we go by character perspective, then Sasuke calls it a rinnegan genjutsu, 
neither  of their statements hold any credibility in this aspect, 
hence why kishi established it in the DB



> I am not equating Genjutsu Casting with Genjutsu Defense. I am saying that Sharingan package is specifically said to be in this third Rinnegan with Tomoe. It was made a different dojutsu.


Except Rinne Sharingan =/= Sharingan or Rinnegan 



> Madara jumped to Rinnegan because he had Asura+Indra package. Having EMS wasn't stated to be a requirement iirc.


sasukes eye was the rinnegan, 
rinne sharingan isnt purple like the rinengan, its red, 
rinnesharingan has 9 tomos, sasukes rinnegan only has 6 

sasuke calls his eye the rinnegan, madara calls it the rinnegan, databook  call it tthe rinnegan, manga call it the rinnegan, 

all of these are more than enough proof to claim that sasukes eye is the rinnegan 



> He might have gotten Rinnegan by just having 3-tomoe for all we know. Hell, his EMS is Izuna's eyes - eyes from a not-Indra transmigrant. Try to make sense out of that.


Except Madara himself is an INdra transmigrant just how sasuke himself is, 
having izunas eyes as a pair doesnt meant that madaras DNA has changed, 
merging hashirammas (ashuras) chakra with his own resulting in rikudo chakra which enabled him to awaken the rinnegan 



> You have all that plus Nagato being a fake. That's enough for me to not give Nagato any Sharingan-related perks.


No one has given nagato any sharingan related perks, 
nor have you provided any valid proof aside from trying to claim that sasukes eye is the rinne sharingan 
and that the rinne sharingans powers are the same as your everyday sharingan 



> There was nothing in the manga about Nagato or even normal Rinnegan and genjutsu defense. Nothing. Sasuke's protection came from TomoeRinnegan.



yet the manga states that superior dojutsu is inaffected by a genjutsu from an inferior dojutsu, 
yet the manga doesnt in any way shape or form state that sasuke repelled the genjutsu because of the tomos in his eye, the only thing stated was the rinnegan itself 

then theres the fact that the paths are dead bodies, have chakra channelling through them by nagato throughout the time and have an outside entity (nagato) being able to break them free whenever they want 
so even if you deny the rinnegan-genjutsu notion, you would still have no way with genjutsu against pein 

and inb4 some clown states frog song, when its a completely different type of genjutsu to tsukuyomi


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Fighting an opponent that he can't beat without Susano'o is enough jusitification for him to use Susano'O.



Okay.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is still better than trying to fight it head on, given Susano'o's defensive and offensive capabilities shit on everything Pain can dish out, bar CST and CT.



Oh? Defensively it's good enough to protect him from most of Pain's jutsu (and it should be), but offensively he's basically the 3rd Railkage with a bit more range. Susano'o is rather lackluster offensively until Perfect Susano'o, in comparison to what the Rinnegan can dish out that is.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He can anchor himself to the floor and resist it like KN6 did, or like Sasuke resisted Baku's suction. Deva is useless for 5 seconds. Gets hit by Amaterasu or depending on the range, Totsuka and dies.



Itachi doesn't have the knowledge for that the first time around, so he'd still go flying. 

If Itachi somehow got close again and this time reflected ST like Naruto did, then Tendo'd just get up and use Chibaku Tensei.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And everytihng you mentioned can be easily dealt with it.



Pain's standard stuff keeps Susano'o active.

That is bad. The Mangekyou is not fun for Itachi. He isn't Madara.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think de-activating the rest of the paths is a pretty risky move here. Itachi is better equipped to deal with a single target.



Not when that target can use Chibaku Tensei.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> But if he is his usual self, agressive and cocky, then it is very likely that he simply loses a few significant paths to Susano'O or Amaterasu and probably can't make a proper comeback after that.



Tendo would end the fight with Chibaku Tensei if Susano'o was that much of an issue.


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## LostSelf (Jun 10, 2015)

I wonder how Baku's suction is comparable to ST, when ST is a blast. If you're hit, you won't grab yourself.

But i suppose Itachi can stay the entire fight anchoring himself to the floor anytime he sees Deva raising his hands (If he does at all) and assuming he will get knowledge on the first blast.

Not a very sound strategy. But there's not much he can do either.


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## Ersa (Jun 10, 2015)

Honestly a living Itachi's best chance of beating Pain is baiting out CST, hoping to survive it with Yata and Susanoo and murdering Pain while Deva is down. It's really not going to happen though, he kind of needs the stamina his Edo form has to win more consistently.


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2015)

The mere sight of Final Susano'o might prompt Chibaku Tensei, actually. There's no reason for Pain to outlast it in direct combat when he can just seal Itachi in a mini-moon and wait for him to die.


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Rinnegan with Tomoes, you mean. Something completely different from Madara's normal Rinnegan. Mugen Tsukuyomi is tied to the third eye. Both Kaguya's and Madara's. Not normal set of eyeballs. And Hagoromo specifically called it Sharingan's powers.
> 
> I am not equating Genjutsu Casting with Genjutsu Defense. I am saying that Sharingan package is specifically said to be in this third Rinnegan with Tomoe. It was made a different dojutsu. Madara jumped to Rinnegan because he had Asura+Indra package. Having EMS wasn't stated to be a requirement iirc. He might have gotten Rinnegan by just having 3-tomoe for all we know. Hell, his EMS is Izuna's eyes - eyes from a not-Indra transmigrant. Try to make sense out of that.
> 
> You have all that plus Nagato being a fake. That's enough for me to not give Nagato any Sharingan-related perks. There was nothing in the manga about Nagato or even normal Rinnegan and genjutsu defense. Nothing. Sasuke's protection came from TomoeRinnegan.



You don't seem to get it the Sharingan is a devolution of the Rinnegan. They aren't separate Dojutsu. The Rinnegan doesn't gain tome because it's gaining the Sharingan's abilities. It gains tome because it's evolving further and becoming even more powerful. 

That's why every single thing to do with Mugen-Tsukuyomi is Rinnegan related. It's said to take a Rinnegan to activate. It's said to be a Rinnegan Genjutsu. It's said that only a Rinnegan can repel it's effects. It's said that a Rinnegan is necessary unravel it. 

Hagoromo simply says Kaguya has the Sharingan's power, which is true, because again the Sharingan is the Rinnegan.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Oh? Defensively it's good enough to protect him from most of Pain's jutsu (and it should be), but offensively he's basically the 3rd Railkage with a bit more range. Susano'o is rather lackluster offensively until Perfect Susano'o, in comparison to what the Rinnegan can dish out that is.


Abit ? 
I think you've completely discarded Susano'o's arm and Totsuka reach. Thats not a bit.
And probably you didn't even think about Magatama which is a long range technique.

Also Totsuka seals whatever it pierces, I'd say it is an overall better offense than Raikage's even if you discard its range.

We know for a fact that Magatma travels around the same speed with FRS, and it is more spammable, Pain either needs ot use preta or Deva or has to dodge it, in either case it will grant Itachi openings to follow up with something else.

I'd say you'r underestimating Susano'O's offensive potential.



> Itachi doesn't have the knowledge for that the first time around, so he'd still go flying.


Then Deva won't have the knowledge that he needs to bust out his strongest ST so he'll feel Itachi out with a regular one, which gives him the chance to resist it.



> If Itachi somehow got close again and this time reflected ST like Naruto did, then Tendo'd just get up and use Chibaku Tensei.


Itachi can hit him with Totsuka if he is within range.



> Pain's standard stuff keeps Susano'o active.
> 
> That is bad. The Mangekyou is not fun for Itachi. He isn't Madara.



 I agree with that, Pain is overall a bad match up against Itachi because of the numbers and Itachi needs to use taxing techniques to keep the fight going. So he has to use his strongest techniques and end it quickly.



> Not when that target can use Chibaku Tensei.
> 
> Tendo would end the fight with Chibaku Tensei if Susano'o was that much of an issue.


CT is circumstantial imo. If Deva realm is within Itachi's effective range, from Amaterasu, Totsuka to Magatama, it is likely that Itachi can hit him before the technique is fully in effect.

Also looking @ the way Pain fights, there is always the chance that he can lose a key path, like Deva and don't get to use it at all.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

what stops preta from trolling susanoo?

granted totsuka sword makes it tough but with 6 paths around, preta can sneak behind. absorb susanoo. without susanoo itachi is basically a genin fighting pain. he gets trolled in 2 seconds


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## Sadgoob (Jun 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Armored Susano'o is the pinnacle of the Mangekyou's power.
> 
> *Not the Amaterasu Itachi used on the window*.



Are you seriously using that argument right now?


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## Kai (Jun 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Are you seriously using that argument right now?
> 
> Susano'o is not greater than Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu in all aspects, obviously.


The dojutsu all have their own applications, but Susanoo appears to be the highest potential of the Mangekyo that binds all Mangekyo users together, with Complete Susanoo being the full power of an Eien Mangekyo user.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 10, 2015)

Regardless, the most concise argument for Itachi's success against Pain is his [aided] success against Nagato after it was said that _Nagato was vastly faster with Pain's techniques_.

Assuming Itachi, like Jiraiya, would know to bring his best against the Rinnegan before Pain was geared up, a very massive dent can be made in Pain with minimal stamina due to the speed of Susano'o.

And the fact (can we agree on this?) that Itachi does not need MS jutsu to evade any one body, or to defeat any one body due to his sharp reflexes, evasion, superior versatility and skill.​


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## Six (Jun 10, 2015)

Kai said:


> The dojutsu all have their own applications, but Susanoo appears to be the highest potential of the Mangekyo that binds all Mangekyo users together, with Complete Susanoo being the full power of an Eien Mangekyo user.



From what we've been shown in the manga, you don't need the ems to use perfect complete susanoo. Karachi is the best example. Itachi has never been pushed to the point of having to use it.


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## Kai (Jun 10, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> From what we've been shown in the manga, you don't need the ems to use perfect complete susanoo. Karachi is the best example. Itachi has never been pushed to the point of having to use it.


That's separate to what I said; I never said you needed an EMS for Complete Susanoo but that Complete Susanoo is the full power of the EMS.

Six Path's chakra made Kakashi's Susanoo into a Complete Susanoo. Kakashi is the only example of this actually.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 10, 2015)

> yet literally everyone in the manga considers it to be an evolution to the sharingan
> yet for some reason the guy who weilds these eyes doesnt know that?



That's not true.  Kabuto said it was just something he and Orochimaru suspected after experimenting on the sharingan.  Madara himself only suspected something good might happen if he got Hashirama's dna, and found out that something good was rinnegan.

Nagato didn't even know the eyes weren't his, and both he and Jiraiya thought it was because he was part Uzumaki and part Uchiha.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 10, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> _Mugen Tsukuyomi_ was activated by Madara's third eye, Sasuke's Rinnegan genjutsu feats come from his Tomoe-Rinnegan. I certainly can't think of any genjutsu feats from the normal Rinnegan that are better then what Sharingan has achieved.
> 
> I mean there's got to be a reason for this?
> 
> ...



Madara never took the Gokage seriously till he was about to be sealed. Sasuke showed us the power Rinnegan Genjutsu has. That easily tells you why Madara chose not to use on them. 

You need to establish a meaningful distinction between the two Rinnegan before you claim it is a significant factor. Presently it seems like there isn't such a distinction considering Sasuke's Rinnegan's current appearance. 

Also the fact Kabuto said the Rinnegan is the Sharingan's final stop cuts your argument short. Basically going by this and following your reasoning, I have to say the MS/EMS lack Sharingan Genjutsu because they're not the Sharingan. Makes no sense, does it? Y'know since the MS/EMS are layered above the Sharingan. Likewise the Rinnegan is just layered above the MS/EMS, so it wouldn't lose powers. Hence powers like Susanoo and Amaterasu were useable.



Icegaze said:


> what stops preta from trolling susanoo?



Nothing. But people will say that the items Susanoo holds are "spiritual" despite the fact Susanoo is a chakra construct with chakra items. The same people who tend to argue that also tend to ignore Sasuke showed Yata's mirror and a premature Totsuka (like the one Itachi showed with Kabuto). 

Basically Susanoo, like all Itachi's Ninjutsu, are non-factors here.


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## Bonly (Jun 10, 2015)

Itachi catches a spanking, the paths overwhelm Itachi sooner or later or they can be dicks and just outlast him, either way Itachi's fighting a battle he can't win.


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2015)

kills a few till susanoo runs out or is absorbed by preta

no chance he beats pain

however, give itachi Naruto level of chakra and even without things like PS he will win quite simply 

he cant maintain the only thing keeping him in the game. 

MS sasuke oddly enough would be a better match up for pain


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Jun 14, 2015)

So Itachi gets into a CQC battle with Asura Realm. In an extended fight Asura would eventually win due to his ungodly durability feats but Itachi has genjutsu (i.e., against Bee) which during the fight 100% would hit Asura. So the question becomes whether or not this genjutsu extends to the rest of the Paths due to shared vision or if it'd only hit Asura. If he can, he'll be able to paralyze all the Paths at some point in the near future and solo with that.

But if he can't, he'll be surprised by Asura's spontaneous counterattack (since shared vision means he knows where Itachi really is) but can recover with a Susanoo shield and smash (ala Choza). But here's the problem: while Itachi's fighting Asura Preta's charging forward to nullify Susanoo, Animal's creating boss summons that have to be Amaterasu'd (which Itachi does do IC), Human Realm is being a general threat (sorry, I have a low opinion of the guy), and Deva's using BT (probably) to yank him into one of the other threats. Itachi simply gets overwhelmed.

No knowledge really hurts Itachi here; one of Pain's greatest strengths is literally the lack of knowledge on his abilities.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jun 15, 2015)

Itachi gets destroyed. Pain does not need CT to kill Itachi. SM Jiraiya is faster then MS Itachi and was overwhelmed by 3 pains. You really think Itachi, healthy or not can fight 3-6 pains at once? 

Itachi isn't much stronger then Jiraiya. And he is arguably weaker. His genjutsu is useless against Nagato/Pain. He lacks the firepower to finish Pain off. Even if he hits a pain with totsuka blade it won't be the real nagato so he will die as 3-5 other pains stabb him in the back. Susanoo can be trolled by the nulling of ninjutsu. Even a healthy itachi is no where close to nagato's level of chakra.

The only way Itachi is beating the six paths of pain is if Nagato was drunk and high and feeling like going easy on itachi by not using deva path.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 15, 2015)

Sage Jiraiya is faster than Itachi?


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## Rocky (Jun 15, 2015)

They should be comparable if Jiraiya has sensing, similar to SM Naruto and Sasuke.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jun 15, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sage Jiraiya is faster than Itachi?



Why is it so hard to believe? SM Naruto very similiar to SM jiraiya rushed asura path with 12 rinnegan eyes on him and shattered him into a million pieces. SM is stronger then most people think.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 15, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sage Jiraiya is faster than Itachi?



Itachi has a slight speed advantage and sharingan over Jiraiya.

Sage Mode boosts Jiraiya's speed.  So he probably becomes faster, but Itachi has sharingan to balance that out.  It depends on how big you view the boost from sage mode.  

It also helps if you grant the sage sensing retcon.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 15, 2015)

I don't think SM Jiraiya is as fast as Itachi. He has absolutely no speed feats.


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## Mercurial (Jun 15, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Why is it so hard to believe? SM Naruto very similiar to SM jiraiya rushed asura path with 12 rinnegan eyes on him and shattered him into a million pieces. SM is stronger then most people think.



That's Naruto, exactly, not Jiraiya. Naruto is a perfect SM user, Jiraiya is not.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jun 15, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> That's Naruto, exactly, not Jiraiya. Naruto is a perfect SM user, Jiraiya is not.



I was under the impression that a perfect user such as naruto could only use it longer. Correct me if im wrong.?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think SM Jiraiya is as fast as Itachi. He has absolutely no speed feats.



Jiraiya isn't a speed based fighter, he's a heavy ninjutsu fighter.  So that's what we see him do and get hyped for.  We never saw him get hyped for having a super strength boost, but he's super strong in sage mode, and got a 4.5 in strength.

He has a 4.5 in speed, and if SM enhances speed, it should at least put him at 5.0 with Itachi.  The boost should be better than that though, given what it did to others, and even what juin did to lesser ninja.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They should be comparable if Jiraiya has sensing, similar to SM Naruto and Sasuke.



Naruto is a much better Sage than Jiraiya and EMS Sasuke was inferior reaction-wise to Itachi against Kabuto.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 15, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Jiraiya isn't a speed based fighter, he's a heavy ninjutsu fighter.  So that's what we see him do and get hyped for.  We never saw him get hyped for having a super strength boost, but he's super strong in sage mode, and got a 4.5 in strength.
> 
> He has a 4.5 in speed, and if SM enhances speed, it should at least put him at 5.0 with Itachi.  The boost should be better than that though, given what it did to others, and even what juin did to lesser ninja.



Honestly, I haven't observed a significant speed boost that comes along with SM, not on Jiraiya or Naruto. The main thing seems to be the occasional speed boost they get from enhanced strength, for dashing or leaping/jumping. Increased chakra quality may also increase shunshin speed to some extend. 

Imo the significant thing is the sage precog, which Jiraiya hasn't shown. We may grant him the precog in proportion to his imperfect sage mode, but we've seen how Itachi trumped SM Kabuto in a head on jutsu clash, he executed the jutsu before even Kabuto could. I still think Itachi is too quick for Jiraiya overall.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think SM Jiraiya is as fast as Itachi. He has absolutely no speed feats.



So according to you, Itachi, who was no faster than Hebi Sasuke (maybe _slightly_ going by the shuriken comment) is suddenly so much faster than a guy on his tier in base form. So much so that SM, which rapidly increases Jiraiya's capabilities including physical ones, wouldn't make a difference.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Honestly, I haven't observed a significant speed boost that comes along with SM, not on Jiraiya or Naruto. The main thing seems to be the occasional speed boost they get from enhanced strength, for dashing or leaping/jumping. Increased chakra quality may also increase shunshin speed to some extend.
> 
> Imo the significant thing is the sage precog, which Jiraiya hasn't shown. We may grant him the precog in proportion to his imperfect sage mode, but we've seen how Itachi trumped SM Kabuto in a head on jutsu clash, he executed the jutsu before even Kabuto could. I still think Itachi is too quick for Jiraiya overall.



I don't think Wind Arc Naruto could run with the Deva that fought and pressured Sharingan Kakashi, let alone the one who got all the chakra and attention, or multiple paths.  I count that as a pretty significant boost.  As I count juin, which many times weaker than the boost SM grants, allowing Sasuke to run with KN1 Naruto.

Itachi still probably has better _seal speed_, since he can move his hands faster than a sharingan can keep up with.  But that's not movement speed.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 15, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So according to you, Itachi, who was no faster than Hebi Sasuke (maybe _slightly_ going by the shuriken comment) is suddenly so much faster than a guy on his tier in base form.



Deidara is also on Hebi Sasuke's tier and was heavily outclassed in speed.

And sick Itachi was faster than Hebi Sasuke, yeah.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I don't think Wind Arc Naruto could run with the Deva that fought and pressured Sharingan Kakashi, let alone the one who got all the chakra and attention, or multiple paths.  I count that as a pretty significant boost.  As I count juin, which many times weaker than the boost SM grants, allowing Sasuke to run with KN1 Naruto.



Juin mastery < imperfect senjutsu usage?

Naruto, unlike Jiraiya, has Sage precognition and sensing.


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## Rocky (Jun 15, 2015)

I feel like comparing CS2 to Sage Mode is like comparing KN1 to KCM.


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## Umbrella (Jun 15, 2015)

So Jiraiya seems to have the whole gamut of SM abilities according to the databook, huh?

What seems to make his version imperfect is that he can't maintain it on his own and turns partially toad... but it doesn't seem like his abilities in it are any lesser.


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## Rocky (Jun 15, 2015)

By Fukasaku's definition Jiraiya should have Sage Sensing.

Take in too much energy and you look like a toad. Take in too _little_ and you can't use the arts.


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## Bloo (Jun 15, 2015)

Pein outpowers Itachi. Itachi isn't the best fighter when it comes to a large number of opponents, and Nagato's Six Paths of Pein exploits that.

Pein wins with mid-difficulty at most.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 15, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I don't think Wind Arc Naruto could run with the Deva that fought and pressured Sharingan Kakashi, let alone the one who got all the chakra and attention, or multiple paths.  I count that as a pretty significant boost.  As I count juin, which many times weaker than the boost SM grants, allowing Sasuke to run with KN1 Naruto.
> 
> Itachi still probably has better _seal speed_, since he can move his hands faster than a sharingan can keep up with.  But that's not movement speed.


Deva and Kakashi only briefly engaged in taijutsu, and Kakashi was caught off guard by the extending black rod, which was mainly his own fault for casting a jutsu that left him defenseless briefly. By the look of how Animal realm vs SM Jiraiya ended in the pocket dimension, seems like Jiraiya was caught off guard by the same thing. Unless you think Animal realm was just too fast for Jiraiya to keep up.

Naruto without SM was holding his own against Deva realm. He was being pushed back but still, he wasn't being crushed or anything, that means the gap between them wasn't that big. Sage mode turned it completely, but thats because of his enhanced sensing and immense strength gain.

I don't think Juuin is the same as SM. In terms of chakra quality they are but essentially they are very different.

There is one thing, SM was never said to boost speed, as in movements. Like there is not a single comment on it. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So according to you, Itachi, who was no faster than Hebi Sasuke (maybe _slightly_ going by the shuriken comment) is suddenly so much faster than a guy on his tier in base form. So much so that SM, which rapidly increases Jiraiya's capabilities including physical ones, wouldn't make a difference.


Hebi Sasuke is faster than Jiraiya. Whats your point ?


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## Trojan (Jun 15, 2015)

I think he means that both base Jiraiya and Sasuke have 4.5 in speed. As such, Sasuke is not really faster as you think he is. Even if he is indeed faster, then SM should flip the table around.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I think he means that both base Jiraiya and Sasuke have 4.5 in speed. As such, Sasuke is not really faster as you think he is. Even if he is indeed faster, then SM should flip the table around.



Sasuke has better speed feats than Jiraiya though, so there is no reason to assume they are equal.
Deidara was also tier 4.5, and he was barely keeping up.


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2015)

I would just like to point out that jiriaya being able to beat pain is far more likely than itachi being able to do so 

for one frog song and frog call with the right setting can work 

susanoo not so much. amaterasu not worth mentioning and tskuyomi is laughable in this situation 

food for thought here. 

not to say itachi don't kick jiriaya ass, but when it comes to fighting pain jiraiya is the much better bet


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## Sadgoob (Jun 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> not to say itachi don't kick jiriaya ass, but when it comes to fighting pain jiraiya is the much better bet



Itachi would've killed Animal Realm 1 v 1 swiftly.

Not sparred him for 5 minutes like base Jiraiya.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 15, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Deidara is also on Hebi Sasuke's tier and was heavily outclassed in speed.
> 
> And sick Itachi was faster than Hebi Sasuke, yeah.



Read my post, Gooby. I said Itachi was faster, only slightly. Sick Itachi was faster? Doubt it seeing as he was getting stomped till Susanoo came out.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hebi Sasuke is faster than Jiraiya. Whats your point ?



Hebi Sasuke at least has some justification of being on SM Jiraiya's speed, or slightly faster due to the CS Senjutsu boost. If you think Sasuke's base speed is greater than base Jiraiya's by a certain amount.

However your claim for Itachi's speed relative to Jiraiya is completely baseless. Which is probably unfortunate since Pain has proved he can fight foes as fast as SM Naruto (without using Frog Kata to negate shared vision) to Kakashi to SM Jiraiya.

So, to state the obvious: Itachi's speed is completely and utterly meaningless when he's fighting Pain. Just like how every jutsu Itachi has is meaningless against Pain.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 15, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Read my post, Gooby. I said Itachi was faster, only slightly. Sick Itachi was faster? Doubt it seeing as he was getting stomped till Susanoo came out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Itachi is faster than SM Naruto, I still don't see your point, why do you even bring it up ?


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## Tarot (Jun 15, 2015)

It's amazing how I take a several month break from this forum ans still seeing the same threads.

Pain wins high diff, Nagato mid-diff


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi is faster than SM Naruto, I still don't see your point, why do you even bring it up ?



Itachi isn't even faster than SM Naruto. Basically you have no actual evidence to say Itachi is as fast as you claim he is.


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## Icegaze (Jun 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi would've killed Animal Realm 1 v 1 swiftly.
> 
> Not sparred him for 5 minutes like base Jiraiya.



jiriaya wasnt trying to kill though but get into SM


also how would itachi have seen the chameleon ? last i checked he coudlnt see it when nagato used it 

anything else?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 16, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi isn't even faster than SM Naruto. Basically you have no actual evidence to say Itachi is as fast as you claim he is.



Itachi is fast enough to CQC SM Kabuto and Naruto & B at the same time. He blindsided B twice. 

Also looking @ Naruto's and Sasuke's feats against the Raikage, it is safe to assume that they are around similar level in terms of speed. Itachi is faster than Sasuke, and by extention faster than SM Naruto.

Where is your evidence that proves Naruto & Jiraiya in SM are faster than Itachi ?


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## Icegaze (Jun 16, 2015)

Sm Naruto shit blitzing asura path 

cant remember who itachi has blitz. certainly not killer bee, who said I know u are behind me.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 16, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi is fast enough to CQC SM Kabuto and Naruto & B at the same time. He blindsided B twice.



If Kabuto wasn't trying to keep Sasuke alive, then maybe your Kabuto point would hold some water.
Naruto and B, you still think he blitzed them? 

Naruto saw him coming and wasn't worried to the point he could chat while reacting to Itachi. Bee... yes a lot of shinobi can blitz a guy not paying attention to you.



> Also looking @ Naruto's and Sasuke's feats against the Raikage, it is safe to assume that they are around similar level in terms of speed. Itachi is faster than Sasuke, and by extention faster than SM Naruto.



Except you failed to prove Itachi is faster than MS Sasuke or SM Naruto. What's funnier is you're now saying Itachi can move as fast/faster than the Raikage who is famed for his speed, unlike Itachi. 



> Where is your evidence that proves Naruto & Jiraiya in SM are faster than Itachi ?



The manga which shows SM's feats and explains its capabilities. That's the evidence.

Before I cite anything, I want to see where you got this Itachi speed notion. At the moment, it seems like it is just head canon on your part.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> cant remember who itachi has blitz. certainly not killer bee, who said I know u are behind me.



The official manga over fan-translation:





There's also that instance in which Itachi jumps backwards 20 feet before Naruto or Bee move an inch. His speed was well-established, and Bee was simply not tracking Itachi.​


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## Icegaze (Jun 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The official manga over fan-translation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



^ yh strat thats not bltizing at all 
blitzing would require he hits bee before bee can do anything which really didnt happen 

you got a really loose definition there buddy 

bee exclamation mark also dont indicate he was blitz considering itachi was no where close to him at that point


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 17, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Kabuto wasn't trying to keep Sasuke alive, then maybe your Kabuto point would hold some water.


Irrelevant in regards to Itachi vs Kabuto.



> Naruto and B, you still think he blitzed them? [


re-read my post 



> Naruto saw him coming and wasn't worried to the point he could chat while reacting to Itachi.


So could Itachi.



> Bee... yes a lot of shinobi can blitz a guy not paying attention to you.



Evidence B wasn't paying attention ? 


> Except you failed to prove Itachi is faster than MS Sasuke or SM Naruto. What's funnier is you're now saying Itachi can move as fast/faster than the Raikage who is famed for his speed, unlike Itachi.


I already have. SM Naruto = MS Sasuke < Itachi



> The manga which shows SM's feats and explains its capabilities. That's the evidence.


scans ? 



> Before I cite anything, I want to see where you got this Itachi speed notion. At the moment, it seems like it is just head canon on your part.



Re-read my post. Thats where I got Itachi's speed from.

Now, again, show me Naruto's speed feats that put him above Itachi.


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## Icegaze (Jun 17, 2015)

itachi actually has better speed feats than SM jiraiya so not getting the argument even slightly 

it also isnt odd that he would be faster. 

However how itachi using speed would be able to outdo 6 paths i dont know. if his speed was enough to make a difference then A and minato would have a field day against pain


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 17, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Irrelevant in regards to Itachi vs Kabuto.



Very relevant. Trying to ensure the stronger Uchiha didn't die, and the fact the inferior Uchiha (Itachi) kept close to him influenced a lot.



> So could Itachi.



Except Itachi was going all out, his body wouldn't stop him... Naruto evidently wasn't. 



> Evidence B wasn't paying attention ?



I guess when you see two random summons suddenly appear, you're gonna focus on Itachi. 



> I already have. SM Naruto = MS Sasuke < Itachi



You proved shit. Itachi's speed was never shown to be better than MS Sasuke's. It is even arguable that he was better than Hebi Sasuke.



> scans ?



When you start showing scans, then expect me to.



> Re-read my post. Thats where I got Itachi's speed from.



Your post contained nothing. You asked for scans without providing any for some very questionable remarks you made about Itachi's capabilities.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ^ yh strat thats not bltizing at all
> blitzing would require he hits bee before bee can do anything *which really didnt happen*



Thanks to Nagato's warning and Itachi's warning, external help that Kishi put in play so he could show Itachi's flicker wasn't something Bee could handle, and yet have Bee stay in the fight.

How would you suggest that, without warnings, Bee would anticipate Itachi, say, throwing kunai and shuriken from his blindspot? You know, the way he did against even _Rinnegan shared vision_.

Because Kishi literally had Itachi sneak into Bee's blindspot twice _within a couple pages of each other_, and had an unknowing Bee being notified by his enemies about Itachi's flicker re-positioning.​


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2015)

Warnings wouldn't exactly help B react to something that went too fast for him to perceive. 

There's a reason that Itachi used distractions and took non-linear paths. If those instances proved that Itachi's speed was "too much for B to handle," then B wouldn't have tried engaging him in base after they happened...yet he did.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Warnings wouldn't exactly help B react to something that went too fast for him to perceive.



I'm not sure how you figure that when Itachi canonically moved from point A to B faster than Bee could perceive. One time for certain, and arguably twice.

We're just arguing semantics at this point. v2 A never blitzed Sasuke head-on, but he still moved around Sasuke faster than Sasuke could perceive in a similarly non-linear (smarter) way.

Similarly, sick Itachi also has feats of forming a clone replacement and using the flicker in succession faster than Hebi Sasuke's Sharingan could notice. He earned that 5.0 speed.

And as alluded to above, when Itachi's in a non-linear blindspot with his enemy unaware, what's to stop him from bending kunai into them? Even Kabuto said his blindspot-attacks were unavoidable.​


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'm not sure how you figure that when Itachi canonically moved from point A to B faster than Bee could perceive.



Just like base Naruto blitzed Kakuzu with Rasenshuriken, right?



Strategoob said:


> You're just arguing semantics at this point. v2 A never blitzed Sasuke head-on, but he still moved around Sasuke faster than Sasuke could perceive in a similarly non-linear (smarter) way.



Nothing I argued has anything to do with semantics. 

V2 A had no choice but to go around Sasuke unless he wanted to run right into Amaterasu. The difference here is that A didn't need a clone feint or Kuchiyose to circle him, and Sasuke wouldn't have been able to turn around and physically keep up with v2 A if the Raikage had warned him...



Strategoob said:


> And as alluded to above, when Itachi's in a non-linear blindspot with his enemy unaware, what's to stop him from bending kunai into them? Even Kabuto said his blindspot-attacks were unavoidable.



If he distracts them or creates a clone, he'd probably be able to get into a blindspot and go from there. I'm not debating that. Hell, we've seen slower characters perform like that. Jiraiya, Naruto, Kakashi, etc.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Just like base Naruto blitzed Kakuzu with Rasenshuriken, right?



How are the two situations comparable?



Rocky said:


> V2 A had no choice but to go around Sasuke unless he wanted to run right into Amaterasu.



_*gasp*_ Going around an enemy for a blitz minimizes counter potential?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 17, 2015)

Kakuzu was immobile with his only form of movement being restricted as his Wires literally dug straight into the ground. Not a fair comparison. 

 Killer Bee's expression here does indicate that Itachi moved a rather far distance before Base Bee could even perceive it whereas Kakuzu clearly displayed shock as well, but not at Naruto's actual position relative to his own, but at the idea that Naruto executed a clever feint. Kakuzu's facial expression clearly indicates that he detected Naruto's movements as his eyes were directly pointed towards his. Bee's was not. 

 If it were, you'd think Kishimoto would have had Bee indicate that he could perceive his movements yet he only did with KCM Naruto. KCM Naruto indicating his ability to perceive his movements while Bee was still stuck in the ground and had an expression full of shock expresses the idea that Itachi moved a far distance before Bee could even perceive his movement and even then, Nagato aided both of them here.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 17, 2015)

Kakuzu also perceived what he thought to be a clone, but disregarded it, because the real one using a Rasenshuriken was his only concern. He just miscalculated his strategy badly.

Bee didn't perceive Itachi moving at all before being warned. So in the Kakuzu scenario, speed had nothing to do with it. In the Itachi scenario, speed had everything to do with it.

In all of Itachi's fights, he has feats of forming clones and flickering away extremely quickly. Part I is misinterpreted, as Itachi did it then and there, but Kakashi _sent in_ a clone first.

People assume Kakashi did the same thing, but he didn't have the hype from Kurenai about being "superhuman" that Itachi did, or from Kakashi himself concerning Itachi's jutsu-forming speed.

The Hebi Sasuke faster-than-Sharingan feint is well established. And the feints against Bee are well-established. And the feints against Sage Kabuto (that EMS Sasuke also missed) are well-established.

Itachi's speed was his initial hype, and its been maintained. Genjutsu hype came in part two and was built upon, but his speed wasn't taken away because of that.​


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> How are the two comparable?



Both involved feints/distractions. 



> _*gasp*_ Going around an enemy for a blitz minimizes counter potential?



...I'd say that more speed does an even better job at minimizing counter potential. Going around somebody _takes longer._ That's why the ace techniques of the manga's speedsters tend to be linear dashes. 

Going around somebody is useful for blindsiding them, which you _don't need to do_ if you already have enough speed to outright blitz them.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Both involved feints/distractions.



There was no distraction for Itachi's initial feint. It was all speed, just like when he did superhuman clone feints against part one Kakashi and Hebi Sasuke's Sharingans.​


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 17, 2015)

One could argue that allowing Itachi to blindside Bee was incredibly stupid of Bee. If you allow someone to bypass your field of vision, then you're essentially leaving yourself vulnerable. 

 I don't believe it was a blitz considering Bee didn't show shock whereas he did with Itachi's genjutsu, but he clearly moved fast enough to escape Bee's vision before Bee realized Itachi's position. It makes the most sense unless you truly think a skilled swordsmen would allow his opponent to strike his blindspot.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 17, 2015)

And here's an instance of Itachi covering comparable distance before Bee (or Naruto) move at all. You'll notice they're in the exact same position when Itachi's there and when he's 20 feet away.



Secondly, people often argue Itachi used the katon as a distraction, but the katon had cleared, Itachi was considering Kisame's fate, and Bee had his eyes on Itachi and warned Naruto to be on his guard. Then BAM.



Nor would that even be Itachi best speed feet. He did the same thing right in front of Hebi Sasuke's face. He just conveniently didn't attack from the blindspot because he didn't want to kill Sasuke.



In part one, this was the vision-blocker Kakashi used to send a clone underwater while Itachi made one of himself and flickered away. Notice Kurenai is looking right at him from two feet away & didn't notice _at all_.



Point being, Itachi doesn't need distractions. He canonically drops clones and flickers into blindspots faster than 4.0 Kurenai, faster than 4.5 + Sharingan boost Sasuke, and faster than Bee. And when he's in a blindspot:


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> There was no distraction for Itachi's initial feint. It was all speed...



Did you miss the giant fireball and the clone feint?



> ...just like when he did it against Hebi Sasuke's Sharingan.



What, do you mean this?



The flock of crows couldn't be considered a distraction?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 17, 2015)

That actually helps Itachi here as Sasuke pissed himself at the fact that he nailed a Kage Bushin instead of the real Itachi.

Sick Itachi was one-step ahead of Sasuke the entire time prior to Tsukyomi and it showed.


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> And here's an instance of Itachi covering comparable distance before Bee (or Naruto) move at all. You'll notice they're in the exact same position when Itachi's there and when he's 20 feet away.​



They were done with their attack and Itachi was flickering away...

It's the same thing as Naruto moving a dozen meters away before A moved after punching the cliff. It doesn't indicate some huge speed gap.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 17, 2015)

Strategoob, I reread the fight with Itachi vs. Kakashi and even I didn't notice that.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Did you miss the giant fireball and the clone feint?



Edited in my post. The fire had cleared. Bee's eyes were on Itachi. Itachi thought about Kisame. Nagato's warning was last-moment. Itachi was coming in semi-vertically in front of them.

So unless you think Itachi jumped so high in the air that Bee had enough time to have a small conversation with Samehada and Naruto while Itachi was falling the whole time...

... and Nagato didn't bother warning them all that time, and Itachi's trajectory isn't even straight down, which would be required for that to make an ounce of sense, then it was right in front of his face.

I don't know why you argue with that though though given the plethora of evidence that Itachi can clone feint faster than ninja can see, such as against Hebi Sasuke (who has better eyes than Bee.)​


Rocky said:


> What, do you mean this?
> 
> The flock of crows couldn't be considered a distraction?



I did not mean that. I meant mid-shuriken-battle, Itachi formed a clone to take his spot and hid himself, which elicited shock and sweat from Hebi Sasuke.​


Rocky said:


> It's the same thing as Naruto moving a dozen meters away before A moved after punching the cliff. It doesn't indicate some huge speed gap.



When Naruto used his flicker to dust A, you mean? I think that was meant to highlight Naruto's speed, just like Itachi evading Bee and moving 20 feet away before Bee finished his stroke.​


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2015)

If Itachi can weave seals, create a clone, put it in Nagato's arms, and jump into the air all faster than Naruto & B can even see, then there's no reason to even bother with the fireball or clone.

As soon as he got the attack signal, he would have just ran over to them and slit their throats before they even realized he moved.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 17, 2015)

Do you think Itachi could blitz Kurenai? Because SuperSaiyanMan uses the same argument since Kurenai managed to dodge his kunai slash even while she was coming out of her own copied genjutsu.

And yet the facts are right there in the battle that she absolutely could not track his clone formation and flicker speed even when looking right at him, hence her calling him superhuman. 

And the fact of the matter is that (base) Bee can't track Itachi's clone formation and flicker any better than Kurenai could. Naruto and Nagato were clearly shown to be able to though.

Which puts Itachi's clone feint blitz potential above Hebi Sasuke and base Bee, but below KCM Naruto and Nagato's reflexes (which are much higher.) That's what the manga portrays.​


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2015)

Naruto clearly cannot track Itachi's speed either if he didn't notice any of this:



> If Itachi can weave seals, create a clone, put it in Nagato's arms, and jump into the air



What he responded to was Itachi in free fall.

Itachi > v2 A confirmed.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If Itachi can weave seals, create a clone, put it in Nagato's arms, and jump into the air all faster than Naruto & B can even see, then there's no reason to even bother with the fireball or clone.
> 
> As soon as he got the attack signal, he would have just ran over to them and slit their throats before they even realized he moved.



 He could have, but he insisted on giving Bee a bunch of freebies.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Naruto clearly cannot track Itachi's speed either if he didn't notice any of this:



What part of a mid-jump Naruto yelling "I see him!" to Nagato confused you?

Whereas Bee dropped a "!!?" in the same moment.

Naruto responded to Itachi in the air, but he saw him move there.

Unlike Bee, Hebi Sasuke, or Kurenai did/would.


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2015)

Naruto knew Itachi was in free fall above them, which is what Nagato's warning pertained to.

I don't know what gave you the idea that Naruto saw any of the stuff in my quote. He didn't even start moving until after the clone popped.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 17, 2015)

The reason Naruto knew and _was already in the air_ while Bee was still in confused shock was because Naruto saw it beforehand.

Moreover, Itachi's definitely not in vertical free-fall. He has a definite forward vector there, which is all the more reason he wasn't jumping through the air while Naruto and Bee were having their conversation.

So the only thing you're pushing now is that Naruto didn't see it either, because that would be ridiculous. But the fact that he was already in the air countering Itachi while Bee was in surprised shock counters that.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 17, 2015)

Looks similar to when Kakashi changes dimensions

 Handicapped Itachi's so impressive that SM Kabuto literally thought he had Sensing here.


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The reason Naruto knew and _was already in the air_ while Bee was still in confused shock was because Naruto saw it beforehand.



I am almost _positive_ that Naruto knew because he's an advanced sensor in KCM.

B, while cool, isn't.



> Moreover, Itachi's definitely not in vertical free-fall. He has a definite forward vector there, which is all the more reason he wasn't jumping through the air while Naruto and Bee were having their conversation.



I thought it was a ninja jump.

Kinda like how they travel between trees.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I am almost _positive_ that Naruto knew because he's an advanced sensor in KCM.
> 
> B, while cool, isn't.



Itachi can hide himself from sensors, however, like he did when executing his feints against Sage Kabuto.​


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Only momentarily.

The situations are actually pretty comparable. Itachi was able to feint both Kabuto & Naruto using seal speed and clonejutsu, but because they're great sensors they could respond to his follow up attack. He couldn't just run over and stab Naruto or Kabuto before they could anything though.

I don't have a problem with Itachi feinting B and attacking him from a blindspot. Without Kabuto or Naruto's sensing, B would obviously be in trouble. Itachi just needs some sort of distraction (just a breif one) to get a clone out, swap places with it, and get to a hiding spot.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 18, 2015)

Agreed. And IMO it's easier to flicker around someone's LOS and attack from their blindspot then to linearly attack. It still requires tremendous speed, but less speed. But it's also more effective to avoid linearity because it minimizes the potential for counters.​


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

I added a line, and I don't think you'll agree with me anymore.

Though clone feint mechanics (much like substitution mechanics) make no sense to me, so maybe he doesn't need a distraction.

I dunno.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 18, 2015)

He didn't have a distraction against Sasuke (unless you think countering those thrown shuriken did it, in which case the bar for distraction is so low that it's impractical to argue over it since it will always be easily accomplished) or Kurenai. 

Nor did he appear to have one against Bee the first time given it's unlikely Itachi was falling at that vector and trajectory the entire time the flames to the side were settled. Itachi was initially and consistently hyped for clone feint speed. But I can agree to disagree.​


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Didn't animal path feint Jiraiya with no distraction? I'm just going to blame substitution mechanics.

Tbh, Itachi needing or not needing a distraction is super irrelevant because fireball jutsu works as a distraction in almost every situation.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 18, 2015)

I see that as only evidence that base Jiraiya gon' get blitzed.

(And he did fail to avoid base Gai kicking him in the face. )


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If Itachi can weave seals, create a clone, put it in Nagato's arms, and jump into the air all faster than Naruto & B can even see, then there's no reason to even bother with the fireball or clone.
> 
> As soon as he got the attack signal, he would have just ran over to them and slit their throats before they even realized he moved.



Kind of like Minato does to Nagato.


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Itachi doesn't have access to v3 kunai. Only Minato and Rock Lee have that power.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 18, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Very relevant. Trying to ensure the stronger Uchiha didn't die, and the fact the inferior Uchiha (Itachi) kept close to him influenced a lot.


So you'r saying that Kabuto made himself slower when he was facing Itachi, (which has nothing to do with Sasuke ?) 
I'll need some evidence for this, visual or verbal otherwise I'll accept your concession.



> Except Itachi was going all out, his body wouldn't stop him... Naruto evidently wasn't.


Same as above. Evidence that Naruto was fighting slower ? Both of them were casually chatting.



> I guess when you see two random summons suddenly appear, you're gonna focus on Itachi.


Itachi is more dangerous than those random summmons. B already witnessed Itachi can go in and out very fast.
Nagato had to warn him the first time, Itachi had to warn him the second time.
Conclusion = Itachi is too quick for B to track.



> You proved shit. Itachi's speed was never shown to be better than MS Sasuke's. It is even arguable that he was better than Hebi Sasuke.


Itachi was statistically better than  Hebi Sasuke and Hebi Sasuke didn't increase in speed during the time he "defeated" Itachi and assaulted the summit.

But we know for a fact t hat Itachi had faster reaction speed than Kabuto fight EMS Sasuke, always taking the initiative before Sasuke could react : Why did Madara switch to Sharingan to genjutsu Ei when Rinnegan is "superior"?
Why did Madara switch to Sharingan to genjutsu Ei when Rinnegan is "superior"?
Also Kabuto has the jutsu execution speed to counter Sasuke : Why did Madara switch to Sharingan to genjutsu Ei when Rinnegan is "superior"?
Itachi has the speed to counter Kabuto : Why did Madara switch to Sharingan to genjutsu Ei when Rinnegan is "superior"?
Itachi is faster than EMS Sasuke.



> When you start showing scans, then expect me to.


I already did. Read Itachi vs Kabuto, Itachi vs Naruto & B.



> Your post contained nothing. You asked for scans without providing any for some very questionable remarks you made about Itachi's capabilities.



I made my argument.
You don't have an argument.
You don't have evidence.
You lost.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

Wait, Kabuto held back on Itachi despite Itachi being the obstacle towards stealing Sasuke?

 There's absolutely no piece of evidence that suggests that Kabuto held back on Itachi whereas there's more evidence that suggests that Itachi held back on Kabuto.


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## LostSelf (Jun 18, 2015)

Kabuto didn't held back against Itachi, but he was in a very bad situation.

He was tring to take control of him while he had a EMS user protecting his prey, when Kabuto couldn't damage Sasuke. In other words, everytime Kabuto was going to take Itachi, Sasuke stepped him and counter attacked him. And when Kabuto tried to capture Sasuke, in wich we know it's way harder than killing, Itachi stepped in, got killed, Sasuke then stepped in, etc.

He was in a worse condition. If he wanted Sasuke death would've been more equal, but that much yet. Fighting 2 high level kages that are not trying to kill you with the method to put you down without resorting to that (Genjutsu) is way, waaaay worse than trying to capture somebody when you have an impenetrable shield (Sasuke) that's going to protect you anytime you fall AND Edo Tensei inmortality.

No matter how you look at it, Kabuto had it worse, much more.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So you'r saying that Kabuto made himself slower when he was facing Itachi, (which has nothing to do with Sasuke ?)
> I'll need some evidence for this, visual or verbal otherwise I'll accept your concession.



I said Kabuto altered his fighting style so he wouldn't harm Sasuke. You know of the evidence already but you refuse to accept it. 



> Same as above. Evidence that Naruto was fighting slower ? Both of them were casually chatting.



Except you chose to ignore Naruto was easily keeping up with foes notably faster than Itachi such as Juubi Jinchuriki and Tobi.



> Itachi is more dangerous than those random summmons. B already witnessed Itachi can go in and out very fast.
> Nagato had to warn him the first time, Itachi had to warn him the second time.
> Conclusion = Itachi is too quick for B to track.



Summons appeared out of no-where and Bee had the "wtf" factor there.
Obviously Itachi isn't as fast as you think he is if Bee didn't think much of his speed i.e. readily focused on summons that appeared out of no-where in spite of Itachi being there.

Nagato warned them... but that's the only thing you selectively remember. You forget that the others already saw Itachi coming.

Conclusion: Itachi isn't as fast as you think.


> Itachi was statistically better than  Hebi Sasuke and Hebi Sasuke didn't increase in speed during the time he "defeated" Itachi and assaulted the summit.



He had better reflexes, sure. Movement speed, he was owned a lot.

Hebi Sasuke's speed could easily increase with the CS... I'll leave you to think about why that is.



> But we know for a fact t hat Itachi had faster reaction speed than Kabuto fight EMS Sasuke, always taking the initiative before Sasuke could react : evidence
> evidence
> Also Kabuto has the jutsu execution speed to counter Sasuke : evidence
> Itachi has the speed to counter Kabuto : evidence
> Itachi is faster than EMS Sasuke.



The funny thing is none of your scans say anything you said they're saying, the first three just show Itachi was more battle focused unlike Sasuke who either wanted to talk, who was actually dodging (Itachi said sorry for underestimating him, something you chose to miss out) and the third link shows the Bee situation again; anyone can appear super fast when charging for a foe whose not focusing on you.

The last link is even funnier because if you look at the page before, Kabuto was obviously a bit more relaxed because he _expected_ Itachi to use a Katon. He didn't expect the illusion to change things up.



> I already did. Read Itachi vs Kabuto, Itachi vs Naruto & B.



After being told and after showing me you're only using selective arguments with context distortion i.e. using snippets to support your argument and neglecting the bigger picture which destroys your argument.



> I made my argument.
> You don't have an argument.
> You don't have evidence.
> You lost.



Actually you've lost badly. You had baseless arguments to begin with; your "evidence" involved distorting context of evidence, using points which are shattered when you look at the overall picture. 

Considering that's all your argument comprises of, I'll accept your concession as you've proved there are no proper manga facts on your side.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> He was tring to take control of him while he had a EMS user protecting his prey, when Kabuto couldn't damage Sasuke. In other words, everytime Kabuto was going to take Itachi, Sasuke stepped him and counter attacked him. And when Kabuto tried to capture Sasuke, in wich we know it's way harder than killing, Itachi stepped in, got killed, Sasuke then stepped in, etc.




 Personally, I still believe the odds were more in Kabuto's favor. Kabuto honestly lucked out because everytime Sasuke wanted to do something that would give both Uchiha brothers the upper-hand, Itachi restricted him from doing so and even told Sasuke to step back as he prepared his Izanami. Sasuke protecting Itachi wouldn't have actually been needed because well, Itachi's an Edo Tensei meaning that Itachi allowed himself to be hit in order to set the preparations for Izanami. Had he actually been Alive, Itachi would not have required himself to get killed and would've foresaw other ways of preparing Izanami, even though the preparations would have taken longer.

 There's also the idea that supports that notion as Itachi took advantage of his Edo Tensei body to protect Sasuke. Sasuke honestly held him back, hence why he told Sasuke to step back as he prepared Izanami. Sasuke was less reflexive and it showed as Itachi had to hold his hand the entire time while Itachi showed feats of outplaying Kabuto on multiple occasions. Being held back by Sasuke along with the fact that both were "forced" to hold back to begin with made things much worse for Itachi.



> He was in a worse condition. If he wanted Sasuke death would've been more equal, but that much yet. Fighting 2 high level kages that are not trying to kill you with the method to put you down without resorting to that (Genjutsu) is way, waaaay worse than trying to capture somebody when you have an impenetrable shield (Sasuke) that's going to protect you anytime you fall AND Edo Tensei inmortality.



 Except Itachi pretty much gave him freebies and restricted Sasuke from doing anything. Had Itachi actually been serious, he would have been more cautious of actually protecting himself rather than taking advantage of his Edo Tensei body in order to prepare for Izanami.

 I personally believe Itachi had it way worse. He was more worried about the well-being of the Shinobi during the War rather than using his best techniques to subdue Kabuto easily. Even Itachi believed Sasuke could easily kill Kabuto and he was far less reflexive than Itachi was in that fight. Itachi never needed protection as everytime he was slashed had to do with either preparing Izanami or to protect Sasuke by taking advantage of his ET body. Everytime Kabuto actually slashed through Itachi's Edo Tensei body, there was no expression of shock whereas there was in every single moment that Itachi managed to feint Kabuto. Itachi was Kabuto's superior, but he was heavily restricted due to having to help Sasuke and resort to preparing Izanami to end the Edo Tensei. 



> No matter how you look at it, Kabuto had it worse, much more.



 I personally don't believe that's the case at all.

 I'm also aware that my argument isn't actually structured well, but I'm simply giving my intake on this. 

 Edit: Fuck, thanks for making my response green.


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## Garcher (Jun 18, 2015)

>2015
>people still thinking Pain stands a chance against Itachi


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## Sadgoob (Jun 18, 2015)

Sasuke straight asked why they couldn't just kill Kabuto.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sasuke straight asked why they couldn't just kill Kabuto.



 Itachi was also more concerned about EMS Sasuke killing SM Kabuto and he showed himself to be less reflexive and perceptive than Itachi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 18, 2015)

Kabuto explicitly said he won't do anything to harm Sasuke. Itachi was the most owned guy in the battle where the two strongest guys where holding back. He was neither supremely fast or supremely strong enough to be so much above the two strongest fighters in that battlefield.

Despite this we're still considering Pain _won't_ stomp Itachi.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

^ Sure, if you want to ignore every reason why Itachi allowed himself to easily be hit, then go for it.


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## Turrin (Jun 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Personally, I still believe the odds were more in Kabuto's favor.


Come on bruv this is just silly. Kabuto had to fight on two separate fronts; against the alliance and against Itachi and Sasuke. That's literally thee only reason Itachi and Sasuke didn't find themselves up against an entire army of reanimated zombies. The odds were drastically out of Kabuto's favor. 

The odds being in Kabuto's favor, is similar levels of BS to the odds being in Obito's favor when he faced Minato, despite the fact that he was fighting the entire Konoha-village at the same time, which was the only reason Minato wasn't up against Obito and the Demon-Fox at the same time.

Kabuto is WAY WAY above Itachi, under fair circumstances.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 18, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I said Kabuto altered his fighting style so he wouldn't harm Sasuke. You know of the evidence already but you refuse to accept it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So your excuses are things like : "X was holding back" (no evidence) Y wasn't focused(no evidence)  Z wasn't paying attention(no evidence).


Alrighty.. Come up with more vague shit and we'll talk. 



LostSelf said:


> Kabuto didn't held back against Itachi, but he was in a very bad situation.
> 
> He was tring to take control of him while he had a EMS user protecting his prey, when Kabuto couldn't damage Sasuke. In other words, everytime Kabuto was going to take Itachi, Sasuke stepped him and counter attacked him. And when Kabuto tried to capture Sasuke, in wich we know it's way harder than killing, Itachi stepped in, got killed, Sasuke then stepped in, etc.
> 
> ...



What ? No 

Kabuto was allowed to hit Itachi as hard as he could, and he could use any jutsu to knock out or incapacitate Sasuke.
Itachi & Sasuke weren't allowed to hit him @ all, and after a certain point, Itachi only concentrated on pulling off Izanami.

The only time when the brothers went offensive(boar strategy), they tagged Kabuto and even then they weren't using lethal force.

There is a clear reason why Kabuto had to constantly remind them that they weren't allowed to kill him because of ET.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Come on bruv this is just silly. Kabuto had to fight on two separate fronts; against the alliance and against Itachi and Sasuke. That's literally thee only reason Itachi and Sasuke didn't find themselves up against an entire army of reanimated zombies. The odds were drastically out of Kabuto's favor.



 Ah, so you're actually including Edo Tensei when Kabuto required prep for it.

 Though honestly, Kishimoto implied from the very start that Kabuto was a bad match-up for Itachi and Sasuke along with the fact that Kabuto had locational advantage, which allowed him to activate Sage Mode in the first place. 



> The odds being in Kabuto's favor, is similar levels of BS to the odds being in Obito's favor when he faced Minato, despite the fact that he was fighting the entire Konoha-village at the same time, which was the only reason Minato wasn't up against Obito and the Demon-Fox at the same time.
> 
> Kabuto is WAY WAY above Itachi, under fair circumstances.



 The Demon Fox isn't part of Obito's power under normal circumstances.

 And really? You're going to say Obito was at a disadvantage when Obito relied on endangering Minato's own newborn child to separate Minato from Kushina and gain the time needed to remove Kurama from Kushina? Please, if Obito didn't use that against him, Kurama being summoned wouldn't have happened in the first place.

 I agree with Edo Tensei, Kabuto is far above Itachi though it should've been clear that I didn't take Edo Tensei into consideration.


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## Kai (Jun 18, 2015)

Kabuto would never make it into Sage Mode had Itachi wanted to kill him immediately. Kabuto knows this but acts freely because of his leverage with Edo Tensei.

SM Kabuto, however, reaches a height of power that is on another level compared to Itachi.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

Kai said:


> Kabuto would never make it into Sage Mode had Itachi wanted to kill him immediately. Kabuto knows this but acts freely because of his leverage with Edo Tensei.
> 
> SM Kabuto, however, reaches a height of power that is on another level compared to Itachi.



 I have no probelm with that view. I just personally believe that at least Itachi was capable of defeating SM Kabuto or is at least within his tier IMO.

 As for the topic:

 Itachi also expressed caution as he was afraid that even Sasuke could kill him too easily. This aided Kabuto as he used Itachi's caution against him to activate a technique that Itachi wasn't even aware that Kabuto was capable of using. It also doesn't help here that Kabuto had knowledge on all of Itachi's techniques where as Itachi had very little knowledge on Kabuto's Sage techniques.

 Things were shifted in Kabuto's favor.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 18, 2015)

Kai said:


> SM Kabuto, however, reaches a height of power that is on another level compared to Itachi.



I don't think that was the vibe at all. After the battle, Sasuke made it clear that he considered his brother a vastly superior shinobi to the point of refusing to even compare Kabuto to him.

Itachi, likewise, said his intention was to save Kabuto because Kabuto reminded him of _his less developed self_, who arrogantly believed himself unstoppable and capable of accomplishing anything.

Even Kabuto, at the end of the fight, was praising Itachi in particular as the perfect foil to his Edo technique, and someone who possessed vast ability and knowledge. (And Shin may now be doing likewise.)

I understand we could say this has less to do with power, but power and ninja respect intermingle to a degree, and unlike with Hashirama, Itachi is within Kabuto's realm of hax.

Particularly if you don't discard the hype of Kabuto planning to use Itachi's mass genjutsu ability, which would be a scaled down effect of the White Zetsu ambush, to turn the war on its head.

Regardless of whether Itachi could take, say, Nagato 1 v 1, his value as a chess piece in the war for Kabuto was implied by both Itachi and Nagato to surpass that of even Nagato and his Rinnegan.
​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 18, 2015)

The funny thing is Kabuto would destroyed them both if he remembered he had doton.  Uchihas never got a counter to earth dragons.


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## Ersa (Jun 18, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The funny thing is Kabuto would destroyed them both if he remembered he had doton.  Uchihas never got a counter to earth dragons.


You mean _Doton: Doryūdan_? I'm fairly certain Yata's Mirror would suffice for that.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 18, 2015)

No, just doton.  The one where you dig.


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> You mean _Doton: Doryūdan_? I'm fairly certain Yata's Mirror would suffice for that.



He means Kabuto just going under Susano'o by digging. 

Uchiha's could pull a Sakura and hit the ground with Susano'o though.


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## Ersa (Jun 18, 2015)

That only works on highly trained medical ninja with top tier reflexes unfortunately.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 18, 2015)

That sort of potential damage pretty much means nothing to stacked Kabuto, and he has tons of AOE moves.  He could have used a couple instead of using one at a time.

He also could have used moves twice.  Especially the ones that worked really well.  Like that vibrating dragon of light.  A better followup than scalpels would have been great.  Like Kido web, or bone forest, or making the cave attack, or basically anything but scalpels.  Separate them a bit and use the flute.  He could do pretty much all of this sensing in the dirt while Sasuke and Itachi get mad at the ground for being so gosh darn solid.



Ersatz said:


> That only works on highly trained medical ninja with top tier reflexes unfortunately.





*Spoiler*: __


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> No, just doton.  The one where you dig.



 And then Itachi spits out a Suiton and flushes Kabuto out of the hole he dug up.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 19, 2015)

Hahaha.

...but of course you can close the hole behind you.


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## Umbrella (Jun 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> He also could have used moves twice.  Especially the ones that worked really well.  Like that vibrating dragon of light.  A better followup than scalpels would have been great.  Like Kido web, or bone forest, or making the cave attack, or basically anything but scalpels.  Separate them a bit and use the flute.  He could do pretty much all of this sensing in the dirt while Sasuke and Itachi get mad at the ground for being so gosh darn solid.



I don't think he could do any of that while sensing in the dirt.
He isn't a clone user.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hahaha.
> 
> ...but of course you can close the hole behind you.


 
 Nothing indicated he would do such a thing like he did against Tsunade where he did it wide-open, making it even easier for Itachi just to shoot  a Suiton.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 19, 2015)

Kai said:


> SM Kabuto, however, reaches a height of power that is on another level compared to Itachi.



You mean with ET right ? 
Because otherwise I don't see any reason to believe Kabuto was on a higher tier than Itachi. At least the manga made no indication as such.


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## Icegaze (Jun 20, 2015)

kabuto with intent to kill itachi and knowledge of totsuka should win casually 

however if he got no knowledge of the sword. he will believe he can tank it and get trolled

kabuto however is far from a level above itachi. with or without ET. one must consider the possibility of kabuto being able to summon them if itachi doesn't want him to 


in a fair 1 on 1 fight. things like totsuka or tskuyomi off the bat sort of force kabuto to retreat and get into SM vs trying to use ET 

luckily for pain. genjutsu wont work and totsuka is unlikely to seal all 6


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## beyondsouske (Jun 20, 2015)

Pein obviously wins, genjutsu doesn't affect Nagato just the bodies. Pein can nuke villages, create meteors, absorb chakra, rip out souls etc. Pein is too versatile for Itachi to beat. And amaterasu can be absorbed and repelled.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:
			
		

> in a fair 1 on 1 fight. things like totsuka or tskuyomi off the bat sort of force kabuto to retreat and get into SM vs trying to use ET
> 
> luckily for pain. genjutsu wont work and totsuka is unlikely to seal all 6



 Except Kabuto took advantage of Itachi's lack of knowledge and killer intent and had locational advantage to aid in him activating Sage Mode.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So your excuses are things like : "X was holding back" (no evidence) Y wasn't focused(no evidence)  Z wasn't paying attention(no evidence).



The evidence is there, and it is definitely not vague. Considering your stance goes the extra mile to misinterpret evidence to suit Itachi, I'm not surprised it goes the extra mile to downplay actual evidence against Itachi.

Face it: Itachi is just on Jiraiya tier, Hebi Sasuke tier without Susanoo.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2015)

Edo Itachi had far more impressive feats compared to Sick Itachi. Hebi Sasuke was outclassed by Sick Itachi until he succumbed to Tsukyomi's fatigue. 

 Sick Itachi would be on Hebi Sasuke's tier while Edo Itachi is far above that.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Edo Itachi had far more impressive feats compared to Sick Itachi. Hebi Sasuke was outclassed by Sick Itachi until he succumbed to Tsukyomi's fatigue.
> 
> Sick Itachi would be on Hebi Sasuke's tier while Edo Itachi is far above that.



Sick Itachi is just a healthy Itachi whose slightly slower and coughs blood. So no need to say "sick" Itachi as if there's a huge difference, apart from the fact Susanoo can't be sustained as much... which isn't really relevant to Hebi Sasuke.

Hebi Sasuke wasn't outclassed, he kept up then overpowered Itachi in the illusion battle. From there things went bad for Itachi.

Of course Edo Itachi is far above living Itachi... his chakra level won't be an issue considering after each use the chakra tops itself back up.


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Edo Itachi had f*ar more impressive feats *compared to Sick Itachi. Hebi Sasuke was outclassed by Sick Itachi until he succumbed to Tsukyomi's fatigue.
> 
> Sick Itachi would be on Hebi Sasuke's tier while Edo Itachi is far above that.



and what those feats may be? Few new fire jutsus? 

His fans overrate the fuck out of his feats/new jutsu when he did not get anything too crazy. 
and some people are still under the illusion that ET has limitless chakra, and can't get tired.

When in fact that only applies to Madara who was brought back stronger than he ever was. lol


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sick Itachi is just a healthy Itachi whose slightly slower and coughs blood. So no need to say "sick" Itachi as if there's a huge difference, apart from the fact Susanoo can't be sustained as much... which isn't really relevant to Hebi Sasuke.



 Slightly slower yet has the capacity of reacting to DSM Kabuto perfectly and can easily sneak behind Bee's blindspot? I doubt it especially when he would've succumbed to a fatal illness if it weren't for the fact that he constantly pumped himself with different kinds of medicine as stated here:

 “She wants to save you, there is nothing more to it”


 You can't deny that one who suffers from a fatal illness wouldn't be able to perform close to what they would normally be capable of.



> Hebi Sasuke wasn't outclassed, he kept up then overpowered Itachi in the illusion battle. From there things went bad for Itachi.



 He was a step ahead of him. His hand seal speed was shown to be considerably faster considering Sasuke summoned his Shuriken whereas Itachi merely threw Shuriken using normal means and then performed a seal that Sasuke couldn't even detect. Furthermore, Itachi managed to feint Sasuke with a clone as the entire time, what Sasuke believed to be Itachi's real body actually turned out to be a clone.



> Of course Edo Itachi is far above living Itachi... his chakra level won't be an issue considering after each use the chakra tops itself back up.



 And that plays a role in Itachi's Taijutsu, Reflexes, Speed, Hand Seal Speed, and his Perceptive Capabilities?



Hussain said:


> and what those feats may be? Few new fire jutsus?
> 
> His fans overrate the fuck out of his feats/new jutsu when he did not get anything too crazy.
> and some people are still under the illusion that ET has limitless chakra, and can't get tired.
> ...





 A few fire jutsus can easily solo SM Naruto as shown with Madara's piss weak Katon.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 21, 2015)

You can't compare Itachi to Madara. Itachi admitted inferiority to Jiraiya and also needed help from an EMS user to defeat weak Kabuto.


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> A few fire jutsus can easily solo SM Naruto as shown with Madara's piss weak Katon.



That has got to be THEE most retarded thing I have read for the past month. 
You know that Narudo was completely unharmed right? 
“She wants to save you, there is nothing more to it”


Or do you agree that Hebi Sasuke solod itachi because the latter got more damaged?
“She wants to save you, there is nothing more to it”

“She wants to save you, there is nothing more to it”


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## Akitō (Jun 22, 2015)

With no knowledge, I don't know how anyone can possibly favor Itachi here. He has such little stamina to begin with, and he'll probably end up wasting a few MS techniques that will be neutralized by Preta Path. Even in neutral conditions he'd lose, but here he's put at an abnormal disadvantage. If all else fails for Pain, Nagato will just revive the bodies and reset the battle.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 22, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The evidence is there, and it is definitely not vague. Considering your stance goes the extra mile to misinterpret evidence to suit Itachi, I'm not surprised it goes the extra mile to downplay actual evidence against Itachi.


The evidence isn't there. You are the only person who is making those claims. With no visual or verbal hints to back up what you'r suggesting.

You've supported the retarded notion that there isn't much difference between Sick and holding back Itachi and Healthy Itachi, and now you'r saying that those people were holding back against Itachi to the extend that it made a significant difference, wtih absolutely 0 evidence on your part.



> Face it: Itachi is just on Jiraiya tier, Hebi Sasuke tier without Susanoo.



But thats a stinking pile of horsehit.
Seriously. Go ask Nagato.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> considering his own Suiton can overpower a Senjutsu Enhanced Suiton and he actually has an affinity in Katon.



When did that happen ?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When did that happen ?



 Never mind, I stand corrected. I totally misread that panel.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Never mind, I stand corrected. I totally misread that panel.



I actually prefer the way it actually is. Itachi basically predicts Kabuto's actions and executes the jutsu before Kabuto can begin to cast it. Another nod at Itachi's precog and jutsu execution speed.
Sage mode my ass.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I actually prefer the way it actually is. Itachi basically predicts Kabuto's actions and executes the jutsu before Kabuto can begin to cast it. Another nod at Itachi's precog and jutsu execution speed.
> Sage mode my ass.



 Exactly. Itachi performs seals faster than a Sage User can perceive and shitstomps them.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

Remove deva and itachi would actually win


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Remove deva and itachi would actually win



 Outside of CST, I think it's actually debatable whether or not Deva Path can actually overcome V4 Susano'o.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Chibaku Tensei says hi.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Chibaku Tensei says hi.



 I wish OP actually specified where this Grassy Field is.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Outside of CST, I think it's actually debatable whether or not Deva Path can actually overcome V4 Susano'o.



CT says hi 
casually 

deva is pain main weapon here. no doubt in my mind without it only preta can be a nuisance 

u take those 2 away and itachi mid diffs at the very most


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The evidence isn't there. You are the only person who is making those claims. With no visual or verbal hints to back up what you'r suggesting.
> 
> You've supported the retarded notion that there isn't much difference between Sick and holding back Itachi and Healthy Itachi, and now you'r saying that those people were holding back against Itachi to the extend that it made a significant difference, wtih absolutely 0 evidence on your part.



Like I said, the evidence is there. As you're the one who is more than willing to disregard evidence that a healthy Itachi isn't too different from a sick Itachi (hint: Zetsu told us what was different, and it wasn't that much) while distorting all sorts of evidence to make it even seem like Itachi seem like he's above Jiraiya tier.

Face it: Kishimoto kept Itachi at a Jiraiya tier. Whenever Itachi went to fight foes above it he got turned into dust or owned repeatedly... while having back up. I.E. on his own, he's be screwed.

And you're saying he can take Pain. 



> But thats a stinking pile of horsehit.
> Seriously. Go ask Nagato.



I noticed how you forgot the several things needed for Itachi to win like back up and Kabuto's lack of knowledge.

We saw what happened when Itachi goes beyond Jiraiya tier, Shinra Tensei turns him into dust and guys like Kabuto own him repeatedly. 

And this also only highlights the point that you only look at pieces of evidence you want to look at, not the whole picture which shatters your notion.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Like I said, the evidence is there. As you're the one who is more than willing to disregard evidence that a healthy Itachi isn't too different from a sick Itachi (hint: Zetsu told us what was different, and it wasn't that much) while distorting all sorts of evidence to make it even seem like Itachi seem like he's above Jiraiya tier.
> 
> Face it: Kishimoto kept Itachi at a Jiraiya tier. Whenever Itachi went to fight foes above it he got turned into dust or owned repeatedly... while having back up. I.E. on his own, he's be screwed.
> 
> ...





Man I don't know how you do it but you manage to crack me up every time.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> CT says hi
> casually
> 
> deva is pain main weapon here. no doubt in my mind without it only preta can be a nuisance
> ...



 Yeah, no. Not only does Deva Path require all of Nagato's chakra to be transferred to him, but he also requires Deva Path to remain a certain distance within Nagato's range. A Grassy Field is vague from the OP's description, but it could very well be outside of Nagato's range for Deva Path to use Chibaku Tensei.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 23, 2015)

Help me understand why at this point of the manga it isn't obvious that Pain Rikudou, all six of them, just destroy Itachi. 



NarutoX28 said:


> Yeah, no. Not only does Deva Path require all of Nagato's chakra to be transferred to him, but he also requires Deva Path to remain a certain distance within Nagato's range. A Grassy Field is vague from the OP's description, but it could very well be outside of Nagato's range for Deva Path to use Chibaku Tensei.



You're wrong.

Only CST requires all Nagato's chakra to be centralised to God Realm. CT just requires God Realm to be closer to Nagato. 

The area doesn't say God Realm can't go closer to Nagato. Nagato himself has to be a certain distance to use Pain, so it stands to reason that God Realm can go closer to Nagato, just not close enough to rope Nagato into the fight.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2015)

Deva realm can't run from Itachi. He isn't turning his back and running away, lol. Itachi just kills him before he can get to Nagato.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Help me understand why at this point of the manga it isn't obvious that Pain Rikudou, all six of them, just destroy Itachi.



Hmmm maybe because Itachi destroyed the person who created Pain rikodou ?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're wrong.
> 
> Only CST requires all Nagato's chakra to be centralised to God Realm. CT just requires God Realm to be closer to Nagato.



 That doesn't seem to make much sense. The whole idea for Deva Path to get closer to Nagato is for Nagato to be able to channel his chakra to Deva Path more effectively. Him not channelling as much chakra to Deva Path seems contradictory to that, not to mention that it places immense strain on his life force in comparison to his other techniques (Rinne Tensei obviously being an exception).



> The area doesn't say God Realm can't go closer to Nagato. Nagato himself has to be a certain distance to use Pain, so it stands to reason that God Realm can go closer to Nagato, just not close enough to rope Nagato into the fight.



 I never said that, but saying Chibaku Tensei GG without any knowledge on Deva Path's distance away from Nagato is just flat out wrong.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That doesn't seem to make much sense. The whole idea for Deva Path to get closer to Nagato is for Nagato to be able to channel his chakra to Deva Path more effectively. Him not channelling as much chakra to Deva Path seems contradictory to that, not to mention that it places immense strain on his life force in comparison to his other techniques (Rinne Tensei obviously being an exception).



God Realm Pain's output was insane due to all the centralised chakra. Ergo the chakra wasn't centralised, we saw how much that can strain Nagato.

All going close to Nagato does is make the chakra signal stronger. The further away God Realm is, the weaker the signal and thus the weaker the output. The closer God Realm is, the stronger the signal (from Nagato) and thus the stronger the output.

Centralising all of Nagato's chakra, while God Realm is close to Nagato, would exponentially increase the output. 

Basically I'm agreeing that the closer Pain is to Nagato, the stronger the chakra signal and the stronger jutsu Pain can use.
I'm disagreeing with the notion that God Realm has to have _all_ Nagato's chakra, like he did with CST, to use CT.



> I never said that, but saying Chibaku Tensei GG without any knowledge on Deva Path's distance away from Nagato is just flat out wrong.



Considering the OP hasn't listed that info, we can only take such replies to mean that in that particular scenario, Pain is close enough to Nagato. Though we know it wouldn't hold in a scenario where Pain isn't.

Without the OP being precise about Nagato's distance from Pain (close, mid or long)... we're given the liberty to make whatever assumptions we want.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yeah, no. Not only does Deva Path require all of Nagato's chakra to be transferred to him, but he also requires Deva Path to remain a certain distance within Nagato's range. A Grassy Field is vague from the OP's description, but it could very well be outside of Nagato's range for Deva Path to use Chibaku Tensei.



then OP would restrict it if that was OP intention am sure OP is a big boy and knows how CT works 

btw not saying its an easy match for either party just that deva is always the tipping point in anything related to nagato or pain 

god realm powers are just that haxx


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## ueharakk (Jun 24, 2015)

Itachi doesn't stand a chance here.

He gets steamrolled if he fights without his MS jutsu, and Tsukuyomi/amaterasu are practically useless due to pain's counters.  He'd have to constantly use susanoo in order to bail himself out of certain death and to deal with stuff like shinra tensei and banshou tennin combos.

Sharingan genjutsu, bunshin feints, crow clones none of that will work when he's up against a sensor who has shared vision and beings that itachi can't even see, it all ends up with itachi getting shinra tensei'd or banshou tennin + finisher.

Itachi would have to spam susanoo in order to stay alive in this fight, something that makes his body weaker and eventually gets him killed while pain can spam his own techniques all day long.

Itachi would have to have his edo buffs in order to stand a chance of winning this.


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Itachi doesn't stand a chance here.
> 
> He gets steamrolled if he fights without his MS jutsu, and Tsukuyomi/amaterasu are practically useless due to pain's counters.  He'd have to constantly use susanoo in order to bail himself out of certain death and to deal with stuff like shinra tensei and banshou tennin combos.
> 
> ...



ill just go ahead and say ET itachi wins 
alive he looses


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 24, 2015)

How has this gone on for over 200 posts? 

Only way Itachi has a chance of winning is if he starts in Susano'o with Totsuka blade out and has knowledge of the Paths.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 24, 2015)

Living Itachi thought he could take Nagato if it came down to it.



There's also a significant speed disparity between Pain and Itachi.

i.e. Itachi can evade the Paths and their jutsu, but they can't evade his.


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

itachi is faster but not so fast that with 12 pair of eyes they cant keep track of him 

too often slower enemies have reacted to faster ones

deidara vs hebi
A vs taka
minato vs bee

the list goes on. being faster is nice and dandy but even A who is muuuuch faster than itachi and by a nasty gap. Even A speed wont make him beat pain. 

so itachi speed is entirely irrelevant in this battle. if he isn't susanoo camping he dies very quickly


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## Sadgoob (Jun 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> itachi is faster but not so fast that with 12 pair of eyes they cant keep track of him
> 
> too often slower enemies have reacted to faster ones
> 
> ...



In all your examples, speed played a major role. A knocked out Jugo easily (and then later Sasuke,) Deidara immediately retreated to the air with Obito planting mines, and Bee was marked.

Itachi has clone feinted when elite Sharingan users are watching him pointblank, a doujutsu specifically designed to notice speed and jutsu. He can clone feint the Rinnegan better than Naruto did.

Remember that Naruto repeatedly destroyed Paths with clone feints, shunshin, and trickery. Itachi is _far_ deadlier than Pain-Arc Naruto in all three aspects. So speed will/has played a role against Pain.

And once he feints into hiding, we've already seen that he can identify blindspots and bend shuriken in such a way to make them completely imperceptible and unavoidable to even shared vision.


​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 24, 2015)

Distorting the meaning of manga panels only proves that nothing credible suggests Itachi can take Pain.


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## StickaStick (Jun 24, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> How has this gone on for over 200 posts?
> 
> Only way Itachi has a chance of winning is if he starts in Susano'o with Totsuka blade out and has knowledge of the Paths.


Simply, Itachi is that one character allowed by his fans to extend beyond the limitations of what the manga has set forth for him and thus allows him to do shit Kishi never said nor implied he could do which creates the impression that Itachi _might _be able to hang with characters that everyone else knows he gets stomped by. Like Pain ITT.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 24, 2015)

Also Rocky, shots fired.





StickaStick said:


> Simply, Itachi is that one character allowed by his fans to extend beyond the limitations of what the manga has set forth for him and thus allows him to do shit Kishi never said nor implied he could do which creates the impression that Itachi _might _be able to hang with characters that everyone else knows he gets stomped by. Like Pain ITT.



Itachi's fan base vs. 167 Pain


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 25, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Simply, Itachi is that one character allowed by his fans to extend beyond the limitations of what the manga has set forth for him and thus allows him to do shit Kishi never said nor implied he could do which creates the impression that Itachi _might _be able to hang with characters that everyone else knows he gets stomped by. Like Pain ITT.



The funny thing is, I've been hearing nonsense like this since I've been on these forums.

When Naruto got KCM, the first thread I saw was about how KCM Naruto'd blitz and destroy Itachi with taijutsu alone.
How B could replicate everything he did against Sasuke on Itachi, murder stomping him in two panels.
How Nagato/Pain would fuck Itachi's shit up and Itachi had no counters to their abilities etc.

God bless the War Arc. 


But apparently its not enough, because shitposting still continues. 
I hope Kishimoto is lurking and gives us another arc with Itachi in it, disproving all the silly notions and shutting them up for good this time.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 25, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Simply, Itachi is that one character allowed by his fans to extend beyond the limitations of what the manga has set forth for him and thus allows him to do shit Kishi never said nor implied he could do which creates the impression that Itachi _might _be able to hang with characters that everyone else knows he gets stomped by. Like Pain ITT.



 Pretty sure the opposite would happen considering what happened to Nagato. 

 Itachi >>> Nagato >>> Pain.


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## Icegaze (Jun 25, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> In all your examples, speed played a major role. A knocked out Jugo easily (and then later Sasuke,) Deidara immediately retreated to the air with Obito planting mines, and Bee was marked.
> 
> Itachi has clone feinted when elite Sharingan users are watching him pointblank, a doujutsu specifically designed to notice speed and jutsu. He can clone feint the Rinnegan better than Naruto did.
> 
> ...



Speed played a role In A vs jugo. but all in all clearly greater physical strength was just as important. pretty sure lee is faster than jugo yet cant easily beat jugo or even at all 

itachi can clone feint no doubt not saying it wont work, of course it should 

however note Naruto clone feints only worked because he had full knowledge and deva was on cool down 

Naruto also had a lot of help from the frogs something itachi simply doesn't have. 

pretty sure the area is an open field so am wondering where itachi would be hiding to pull off clone feints or blind sided attacks. 

I am sure you don't think itachi doesn't need to susanoo camp. because if you restrict that and keep it even to just 3 paths itachi still shouldn't win. 

pretty sure with susanoo restricted he cannot beat preta+human+animal


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## StickaStick (Jun 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The funny thing is, I've been hearing nonsense like this since I've been on these forums.
> 
> When Naruto got KCM, the first thread I saw was about how KCM Naruto'd blitz and destroy Itachi with taijutsu alone.
> How B could replicate everything he did against Sasuke on Itachi, murder stomping him in two panels.
> ...


I'd point out things like Naruto being casual against Itachi and Itachi retreating immediately when Bee brought out his swords, but you're obviously already aware of these things and view them differently so no point there.

I'm actually fine with Itachi hanging with KCM Naruto and B even if I feel those guys are above him in a general sense. Guys like Nagato are clearly above him though and that's when the imaginations start to run wild.

And isn't Itachi getting his own mini-manga or something? So you may get your wish Idk 



NarutoX28 said:


> Pretty sure the opposite would happen considering what happened to Nagato.
> 
> Itachi >>> Nagato >>> Pain.


If Pain is being mind-controlled by Kabuto then I might agree with you


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The funny thing is, I've been hearing nonsense like this since I've been on these forums.
> 
> When Naruto got KCM, the first thread I saw was about how KCM Naruto'd blitz and destroy Itachi with taijutsu alone.
> How B could replicate everything he did against Sasuke on Itachi, murder stomping him in two panels.
> ...


At least be fair to MS Sasuke, he was attacking Bee, Itachi as merely on the defensive when Bee pulled out his swords.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 25, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I'd point out things like Naruto being casual against Itachi


So was Itachi.



> and Itachi retreating immediately when Bee brought out his swords, but you're obviously already aware of these things and view them differently so no point there.


Or like how Itachi had to warn B after he moved behind him before B  could even react.
Also no one argued that Itachi could defeat B with a Kunai. 



> I'm actually fine with Itachi hanging with KCM Naruto and B even if I feel those guys are above him in a general sense.


No they aren't. Especially not B.
But I'm sure you'd say the same thing if you saw Itachi defeat them on panel, so yeah this illustrates my point even further.



> Guys like Nagato are clearly above him though and that's when the imaginations start to run wild.


Which part of it is imagination ? Itachi 1 paneling him with totsuka ? But that happened in the manga. 


> And isn't Itachi getting his own mini-manga or something? So you may get your wish Idk


I wouldn't want Itachi to get his own manga, because it'd be over in 1 panel. 
Itachi solos




Ryuzaki said:


> At least be fair to MS Sasuke, he was attacking Bee, Itachi as merely on the defensive when Bee pulled out his swords.



No he wasn't.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 25, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> At least be fair to MS Sasuke, he was attacking Bee, Itachi as merely on the defensive when Bee pulled out his swords.



Not really. They were clashing, Itachi was just giving ground, as any ninja with a kunai deflecting an 8-blade-dance would. Itachi didn't just shunshin away, even though that was within his capability.​


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 25, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Not really. They were clashing, Itachi was just giving ground, as any ninja with a kunai deflecting an 8-blade-dance would. Itachi didn't just shunshin away, even though that was within his capability.​



Link removed
Link removed

When Bee pulled out his swords, it looks like Itachi took the defensive and retreated to the falcon.


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## StickaStick (Jun 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So was Itachi.


Yes he was, so what's your point? 

If they're both casual then shit isn't proven.



> Or like how Itachi had to warn B after he moved behind him before B  could even react.
> Also no one argued that Itachi could defeat B with a Kunai.


They were taking and then Nagato brought out a couple of his boss summons so I'm not surprised B might have lost track of him.



> No they aren't. Especially not B.
> But I'm sure you'd say the same thing if you saw Itachi defeat them on panel, so yeah this illustrates my point even further.


That's a discussion for another thread, so yeah.

And no, I don't deny manga-canon so if Itachi did beat Naturto and B it would be fact unless there were some kind of overreaching circumstances, so give me more credit than that. 



> Which part of it is imagination ? Itachi 1 paneling him with totsuka ? But that happened in the manga.


The part where Nagato wasn't in control of his own body, for one.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 25, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> At least be fair to MS Sasuke, he was attacking Bee, Itachi as merely on the defensive when Bee pulled out his swords.



 Being on the defensive in CQC heavily implies inferioirity in Taijutsu, hence why CE Naruto was on the defensive against CE Sasuke's Taijutsu and why Base Naruto managed to engage in a CQC clash with Deva Path though I suppose with Bee's case, it's emphasized that it's his unpredictability with his fighting style that makes him threatening.


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