# Is 3 Tomoe Itachi still Kage level?



## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Title says it all.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 19, 2016)

He used 3 tomoe to shit on both Oro and Deidara without difficulty, so yes. I'd say he is.


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## Cognitios (Feb 19, 2016)

Yes. He's above Sannin level without MS.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 19, 2016)

VolatileSoul said:


> He used 3 tomoe to shit on both Oro and Deidara without difficulty, so yes. I'd say he is.



Deidara was not Kage-level back then, and Orochimaru wasn't fighting to kill.


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## fyhb (Feb 19, 2016)

I know Itachi was impressive prodigy and genius,but I still doubt that with just 3 Tomoe he is Kage Level,but considering Kakashi became Hokage(the weakest of them all sadly) without even Sharingan so Itachi may be Low Kage Level!?


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Deidara was not Kage-level back then, and Orochimaru wasn't fighting to kill.



To be fair not many opponents have got decent Genjutsu resistance against someone like Itachi, with full knowledge they'll try their best to avoid it though.



Cognitios said:


> Yes. He's above Sannin level without MS.


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## Cognitios (Feb 19, 2016)

> are all of your posts shit?


I think he could beat Tsunade and Orochimaru (no edo) more times than not. That puts him above Sannin lvl in my opinion. 

His sharingan and speed are way above Tsunade making almost her entire arsenal obsolete and genjutsu would end it early. Orochimaru genjutsu'd almost immediately in a real fight.


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Solidly mid-Kage (around Hebi Sasuke's level), but he can probably beat people above that general level. He can't really deal with high-Kage threats (A's speed, MS Sasuke's Amaterasu and Susano'o, Kamui Kakashi, 7G Gai, SM Jiraiya, etc.) as well with his base arsenal, but he can still take out a few (Tsunade, possibly Orochimaru, possibly Onoki).


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## Android (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Title says it all.



is SHARINGANLESS kakashi a kage lvl


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> is SHARINGANLESS kakashi a kage lvl



Dunno, he's Hokage but I don't really know anything about his actual strength. He could be, he might not be. I'm gonna say that he probably increased his skills in general tbh.


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## Cognitios (Feb 19, 2016)

> Dunno, he's Hokage but I don't really know anything about his actual strength. He could be, he might not be. I'm gonna say that he probably increased his skills in general tbh.


ck

bruh if he's HoKAGE it's probably safe to say that he's KAGE level

He's still above Mei probably.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Cognitios said:


> ck
> 
> bruh if he's HoKAGE it's probably safe to say that he's KAGE level
> 
> He's still above Mei probably.



That's why I mentioned it, I doubt that the elders would try and measure his skill without Sharingan though.


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## Senjuclan (Feb 19, 2016)

Cognitios said:


> I think he could beat Tsunade and Orochimaru (no edo) more times than not. That puts him above Sannin lvl in my opinion.
> 
> His sharingan and speed are way above Tsunade making almost her entire arsenal obsolete and genjutsu would end it early. Orochimaru genjutsu'd almost immediately in a real fight.



He can't beat Tsunade with MS. So, what if he puts her under genjutsu? She will break it. If he harms her, she regenerates. However, once she lands a hit on him, he is dead


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## Nikushimi (Feb 19, 2016)

VolatileSoul said:


> He used 3 tomoe to shit on both Oro and Deidara without difficulty, so yes. I'd say he is.





Cognitios said:


> Yes. He's above Sannin level without MS.



^This. All of this.

MS-less Itachi is still _high_ Kage-level. As in, he would still completely wreck most Kage.



Atlantic Storm said:


> Orochimaru wasn't fighting to kill.



Nothing indicates that. We don't know what the circumstances or nature of that encounter were.

Bottom line though is that Orochimaru was pretty incapable of killing him, or doing much of anything, if he wanted to. Itachi immobilized him, cut off his hand when he tried to break the Genjutsu, and was like "Look dude, nothing you pull out of your bag of tricks is gonna do anything to me. I'm just gonna keep cockblocking you with my Sharingan, noob."

Orochimaru said he left Akatsuki because Itachi was stronger than him. That doesn't suggest he lost to Itachi because he was just messing around. No, he was utterly dominated, and he knew it would be pointless to stick around. He could've come back and tried again with a full Pokemon roster of Edo Tensei and gotten the same result. That's how far apart they were.


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## Crow (Feb 19, 2016)

Low Kage with just 3 tomoe. He has horrible stamina even without using the MS. 
He is good with his sharingan but he isn't that great... He is lower than the sannin, and that's a fact. 
I would put him at around Mei's level or maybe even Gaara's.


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## Cognitios (Feb 19, 2016)

> That's why I mentioned it, I doubt that the elders would try and measure his skill without Sharingan though


Even without sharingan he's still got a powerful moveset in Raiton (excluding Chidori), a powerful defensive moveset in Doton, some nice suitons. His taijutsu is enough to use the 8 Gates, he's got non sharingan genjutsu that isn't terrible. His stamina is god-tier after War Arc, especially without Sharingan. Not to mention he's one of the smartest characters in the manga.

I'd probably wager that Kakashi is the most versitale non god-tier ninja in the manga. 

He's safely mid-kage


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## fyhb (Feb 19, 2016)

Yeah he still can beat quite few tough opponents,and if Hidan is Low Kage Level and Kakashi without Sharingan can be a Hokage then Itachi with 3 Tomoe is probably Low to Mid Kage Level!  Somewhere between both mainly to his low Stamina!


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## Cognitios (Feb 19, 2016)

> He can't beat Tsunade with MS. So, what if he puts her under genjutsu? She will break it. If he harms her, she regenerates. However, once she lands a hit on him, he is dead


What makes you say that? Tsunade isn't breaking Itachi's genjutsu, she wont' even know she's in it before it's too late. Even if she tries to go full on Byakugō she won't touch Itachi before she runs out of Chakra. Katsuyu is her only shot and Itachi effortlessly genjutsu's the slug.

That's all without MS btw


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2016)

As I said in another thread about Kage-level, the Kage is elected for their power to protect their hidden village. So even if Itachi might have a small chance of beating the weakest Kages w/ just 3-T, most of those "weak" Kages are environmental fighters whose powers are greatly enhanced on their home turf. For example Gaara and Rasa are topographically advantaged in the desert and Mei is likely topographically advantaged in Kiri which has an abundance of massive water sources and natural occurring mists. Itachi is not likely stepping to even the weaker Kages when on their home turf, nor able to defend their villages as effectively as they can on their home turf. 

With that said if we include Izanami, than perhaps there could be an argument made, similar to how Old-Hiruzen is probably primarily Kage-level because he can fall back on Shiki Fuujin to protect the village with, but Izanami is a bit less reliable and random in effectiveness, so to me it would still be a tough sell.


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## Bringer (Feb 19, 2016)

We don't know what happened after the Orochimaru Itachi flashback ended. What we do know is Itachi was familiar with the 8 headed snake technique, while Orochimaru didn't go "wtf is that" when he saw Susanoo. I definitely think their fight went on longer, and Itachi pulled out MS while Orochimaru pulled out 8 headed snake. 

And we do know Orochimaru wasn't fighting to kill because he wanted dat body, while Itachi had every reason to kill Orochimaru during their fight.


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2016)

MS itachi is jonin level according to Kishi. 
So, Sharingan itachi, should be lower.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> We don't know what happened after the Orochimaru Itachi flashback ended. What we do know is Itachi was familiar with the 8 headed snake technique, while Orochimaru didn't go "wtf is that" when he saw Susanoo. I definitely think their fight went on longer, and Itachi pulled out MS while Orochimaru pulled out 8 headed snake.
> 
> And we do know Orochimaru wasn't fighting to kill because he wanted dat body, while Itachi had every reason to kill Orochimaru during their fight.



If Itachi brought out Susano'o or Tsukuyomi how would Orochimaru escape? I don't like to use statements too much but Orochimaru also admitted inferiority to Itachi, he didn't say that he couldn't take his body, he said that Itachi was outright stronger.


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## Crow (Feb 19, 2016)

When did Kishi ever say MS itachi is Jonin level. The uchiha clan had a shit load of jonin level ninja. If he was only jonin level with the MS he wouldn't have been able to win against his clan even with Obito's help. he would've been whelmed. MS Itachi is High Kage.


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## ImSerious (Feb 19, 2016)

Jiraiya and Orochimaru completely destroy Itachi w/o MS. Bordering rape.


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2016)

Knight of Chaos said:


> When did Kishi ever say MS itachi is Jonin level. The uchiha clan had a shit load of jonin level ninja. If he was only jonin level with the MS he wouldn't have been able to win against his clan even with Obito's help. he would've been whelmed. MS Itachi is High Kage.





> On Shippuden’s/ Part II’s plot - Kobayashi starts off asking about whether there was framework put in place for the direction of Shippuden’s story. Kishimoto replies that because Naruto and his group were so weak as genin in the first part, so he wanted to make them stronger in the second part. This is especially because he introduced the Akatsiki, who are all Jonin level, so he had to make the main cast stronger too. He also used the timeskip as a chance to change their clothes, since he didn’t like the swirl on the arm of Naruto’s jacket, and also his thick collar in Part 1 got in the way of his face in action scenes. So he drew a small collar and dropped the swirl. He also added the headband with the long tails at the back so they would stand out and flutter during action scenes.



12



> he wouldn't have been able to win against his clan



>implying they actually fought him. lol


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

You think Pain or Obito are Jonin level?


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2016)

Kishi believe so.


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## Cognitios (Feb 19, 2016)

Juubito and DMS Kakashi are Jonin level, you heard it here first.


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## fyhb (Feb 19, 2016)

MS Itachi is way above Jounin Level considering good Joinin are Asuma,Kakashi(without MS) ,there is no way MS Itachi be Jounin Level! 

But this Thread isn't about MS Itachi so let's leave MS out of this!?


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## Bringer (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> If Itachi brought out Susano'o or Tsukuyomi how would Orochimaru escape?



By not being fodder?

Itachi had no reason to keep Orochimaru alive. Orochimaru held a grudge against the Leaf Village.



> I don't like to use statements too much but Orochimaru also admitted inferiority to Itachi, he didn't say that he couldn't take his body, he said that Itachi was outright stronger.



Orochimaru couldn't take his body _because_ Itachi was stronger. Orochimaru was most likely taking MS into account.


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2016)

> MS Itachi is way above Jounin Level considering good Joinin are Asuma,Kakashi(without MS) ,there is no way MS Itachi be Jounin Level!


Kishi begs to differ. 

Also lol@ "without" you don't compare characters to say "without"


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> By not being fodder?
> 
> Itachi had no reason to keep Orochimaru alive. Orochimaru held a grudge against the Leaf Village.



But Itachi could have killed him by decapitating him when he was caught in the binding Genjutsu or he could have used Tsukuyomi on him, he had him right there. 

Why would Orochimaru bring out his best technique against Itachi though? Like how would he capture him without killing him in that form?



> Orochimaru couldn't take his body _because_ Itachi was stronger. Orochimaru was most likely taking MS into account.



So you think Orochimaru could have killed him if he wanted to?


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## Itachi san88 (Feb 19, 2016)

This "kage level" or "jonin level" does not make sense to me, but yeah, is mid-kage level at most.


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> We don't know what happened after the Orochimaru Itachi flashback ended.




What happened is that Itachi cut Orochimaru's hand off and walked away... Itachi is also pacifistic, so he wouldn't kill Orochimaru either. If Itachi's intent was to kill, he would have killed Orochimaru then and there. Since, you know, he was paralyzed and all. I don't think it was an all-out fight either. I think Orochimaru just approached Itachi and tried to reach for his eye or something like that, then Itachi put him in timeout. If someone can shut you up without lifting a finger, you're outclassed.

I think Orochimaru's "battle" with Itachi probably went something like:

>Orochimaru approaches Itachi and talks to him
>Orochimaru suddenly attacks Itachi and tries to take his eyes
>Itachi shuts him up immediately with genjutsu
>Itachi cuts Orochimaru's hand off and taunts him
>Orochimaru realizes he's severely outclassed
>Itachi walks away

It couldn't have been a fight because Itachi shut him down so quickly with apparent ease. That's why Orochimaru said that defeating Itachi was a dream.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 19, 2016)

IIRC, it was a databook or something that said Oro getting his ass handed to him by Itachi was the event that set him on the path of Sharingan lust. So I don't even think that encounter happened because he was trying to take Itachi's eyes/body; or maybe he did want Itachi's body, but in a different way.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

I don't buy the whole 'Itachi's a pacifist' thing but yeah, I don't think he tried to kill Orochimaru for whatever reason. Also, the fact that Itachi was aware of Orochimaru's most powerful technique and Orochimaru wasn't surprised by Susano'o doesn't mean that they both used it in their battle. They were partners so they could have witnessed each other using such techniques. Though I don't think that there's really much proof that Orochimaru was familiar with Susano'o, he just wasn't surprised. He was surprised by Totsuka and I doubt that Itachi 'found' it.


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## Senjuclan (Feb 19, 2016)

Cognitios said:


> What makes you say that? Tsunade isn't breaking Itachi's genjutsu, she wont' even know she's in it before it's too late. Even if she tries to go full on Byakugō she won't touch Itachi before she runs out of Chakra. Katsuyu is her only shot and Itachi effortlessly genjutsu's the slug.
> 
> That's all without MS btw



Dude, Itachi has two kinds of genjutsu, subtle vs. non subtle. She will break all the non subtle stuff he throws at her. One needs chakra control to break genjutsu. She has some of the best chakra control feats in the history of the ninjas, she will break his genjutsu. Now, the non-subtle genjtus, she could fall for because she is not a sensor. However, how does that help. The minute he tries a finishing move to kill her, it will break the genjutsu (pain) and she can regenerate. She will fake death and kill him like she did against Madara.


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## fyhb (Feb 19, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Kishi begs to differ.
> 
> Also lol@ "without" you don't compare characters to say "without"



Can you please not tell me what to do!? 

First of all we are talking about 3 Tomoe Itachi,not MS which is Itachi WITHOUT MS! 

Second of all Kakashi was Jounin Level much before he got MS and it is like he has MS from the start of the Manga so yeah!...

And in the end I think MS Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru but Orochimaru can mid to high dif defeat 3 Tomoe Itachi but it kinda can go either way!


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Dude, Itachi has two kinds of genjutsu, subtle vs. non subtle. She will break all the non subtle stuff he throws at her. One needs chakra control to break genjutsu. She has some of the best chakra control feats in the history of the ninjas, she will break his genjutsu. Now, the non-subtle genjtus, she could fall for because she is not a sensor. However, how does that help. The minute he tries a finishing move to kill her, it will break the genjutsu (pain) and she can regenerate. She will fake death and kill him like she did against Madara.



Yeah, Itachi with no knowledge could just get sucker punched if he doesn't throw up Ribcage fast enough.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 19, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> By not being fodder?
> 
> Itachi had no reason to keep Orochimaru alive. Orochimaru held a grudge against the Leaf Village.
> 
> ...





It's hilarious how you are trying to downplay the feat of defeating Orochimaru in 1 panel by saying Orochimaru lived, so Itachi must've tried hard.  Considering the fact that Orochimaru had time to pick up his chopped off arm and kept it in a jar for years to come to remind him of his utter defeat.


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Dude, Itachi has two kinds of genjutsu, subtle vs. non subtle. She will break all the non subtle stuff he throws at her. One needs chakra control to break genjutsu. She has some of the best chakra control feats in the history of the ninjas, she will break his genjutsu. Now, the non-subtle genjtus, she could fall for because she is not a sensor. However, how does that help. The minute he tries a finishing move to kill her, it will break the genjutsu (pain) and she can regenerate. She will fake death and kill him like she did against Madara.




I think you meant that Tsunade would be ensnared by subtle illusions rather than obvious ones. But breaking genjutsu still takes time. Kurenai, a master of genjutsu who was compared to Itachi, was still blindsided by Itachi's kick after breaking Itachi's genjutsu reversal. The time it takes to break genjutsu or deal with a distraction is all that Itachi needs against Tsunade.


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## Bringer (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> But Itachi could have killed him by decapitating him when he was caught in the binding Genjutsu or he could have used Tsukuyomi on him, he had him right there.



I think the arm slash was just a warning shot from Itachi. Orochimaru was going to break out the genjutsu anyway.

As for Tsukuyomi, Orochimaru could just use oral rebirth. If regular medical ninjutsu can the effects of Tsukuyomi, then spitting out a new body should do the same. 

I'm just stating some facts. Itachi knew about Orochimaru's 8 headed snake technique. This would be understandable if they were partners, but they weren't. Orochimaru's partner was Sasori. Itachi has had to have faced it or seen it before. And when Itachi pulled out Susanoo, Sasuke was like "wtf is that." Zetsu was like "wtf is that." Orochimaru? He wasn't bewildered or interested in it like he was interested in Tsunade's regeneration technique he had no idea about. Shit, how would Orochimaru even know if Itachi was stronger than him if he didn't even try his strongest technique on him? That's why I think it makes more sense Orochimaru brought out his strongest form and Itachi countered with MS. 




> Why would Orochimaru bring out his best technique against Itachi though? Like how would he capture him without killing him in that form?



By beating him unconscious? 




> So you think Orochimaru could have killed him if he wanted to?



3 tomoe Itachi? Yes. MS Itachi? No.


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I don't buy the whole 'Itachi's a pacifist' thing







According to the Databook, Itachi's favorite _word_ is "peace," lol.


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## Baroxio (Feb 19, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Dude, Itachi has two kinds of genjutsu, subtle vs. non subtle. She will break all the non subtle stuff he throws at her. One needs chakra control to break genjutsu. She has some of the best chakra control feats in the history of the ninjas, she will break his genjutsu. Now, the non-subtle genjtus, she could fall for because she is not a sensor. However, how does that help. The minute he tries a finishing move to kill her, it will break the genjutsu (pain) and she can regenerate. She will fake death and kill him like she did against Madara.


Shi, a *sensor* and *medical ninja* with *actual genjutsu experience*, was easily taken out by Sasuke's *inferior* Sharingan genjutsu. Simply "having decent chakra control" went out the window long ago as a counter to genjutsu of Itachi's level. Hell, Itachi's genjutsu'd dojutsu users, jinchuriki, and even perfect sages. Almost every defense against genjutsu has at one point been defeated by genjutsu in this manga.

So try again.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I think the arm slash was just a warning shot from Itachi. Orochimaru was going to break out the genjutsu anyway.



Why not kill Orochimaru when he had the chance then instead of firing a warning shot?



> As for Tsukuyomi, Orochimaru could just use oral rebirth. If regular medical ninjutsu can the effects of Tsukuyomi, then spitting out a new body should do the same.



How? He'd be unable to do anything, you didn't see Kakashi doing anything when he ate a Tsukuyomi. 



> I'm just stating some facts. Itachi knew about Orochimaru's 8 headed snake technique. This would be understandable if they were partners, but they weren't. Orochimaru's partner was Sasori. Itachi has had to have faced it or seen it before. And when Itachi pulled out Susanoo, Sasuke was like "wtf is that." Zetsu was like "wtf is that." Orochimaru? He wasn't bewildered or interested in it like he was interested in Tsunade's regeneration technique he had no idea about. Shit, how would Orochimaru even know if Itachi was stronger than him if he didn't even try his strongest technique on him? That's why I think it makes more sense Orochimaru brought out his strongest form and Itachi countered with MS.



That's true actually, my mistake. Orochimaru saw Totsuka and he wasn't fazed by it until after he was stabbed by it, he also wasn't fazed by being stabbed. Orochimaru's research combined with his arrogance may have meant that he already knew about Susano'o or he just didn't care, Orochimaru was in his strongest form after all. Though I'm not saying it's impossible of course.



> By beating him unconscious?



With what? He was a giant snake and if Itachi cut any part of the snake he would have die.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Edit: DB3 also might imply that Oro developed his tech for revenge against Uchiha, though it might be referring to Konoha instead





Saru said:


> According to the Databook, Itachi's favorite _word_ is "peace," lol.



I know but there's a difference between disliking war and being a pacifist, lol.


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2016)

No there isn't. Pacifist: "a person who believes that war and violence are unjustifiable".


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I know but there's a difference between disliking war and being a pacifist, lol.




Everything suggests that... 

>Genjutsu
>Art of Run no Jutsu
>Decided to put Kabuto in Izanami and not kill him despite the risks
>Recurring theme of peace



> pac?i?fism  (păs′ə-fĭz′əm)
> n.
> 1. The belief that disputes between nations can and should be settled peacefully.
> 2. Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving disputes.​




That fits Itachi to a T.



*Itachi after having used genjutsu:* _"We did not come here to start a *war*..."_


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> No there isn't. Pacifist: "a person who believes that war and violence are unjustifiable".



Except Itachi hasn't hesitated to use violence and he has used it when necessary and even unnecessary. When has he ever said that violence is 'unjustifiable'? He may dislike violence or unnecessary fighting but it doesn't mean that he's completely closed off from it.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Saru said:


> Everything suggests that...
> 
> >Genjutsu
> >Art of Run no Jutsu
> ...



Itachi said he didn't kill Kabuto because then the ET wouldn't have been freed like they would be if he just stopped the technique.

Again, he dislikes violence but he's not completely opposed to it.


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Except Itachi hasn't hesitated to use violence and he has used it when necessary and even unnecessary. When has he ever said that violence is 'unjustifiable'? He may dislike violence or unnecessary fighting but it doesn't mean that he's completely closed off from it.




When did he use violence unnecessarily?




Itachі said:


> Itachi said he didn't kill Kabuto because then the ET wouldn't have been freed like they would be if he just stopped the technique.
> 
> Again, he dislikes violence but he's not completely opposed to it.




There was no need to keep Kabuto alive after the Edo Tensei had been released. Remember how the Edo Tensei were still moving around after Itachi made Kabuto form the hand seals to release Edo Tensei? Yeah, Itachi could have ended Kabuto's life immediately after stopping Edo Tensei and _still_ had time to chat with Sasuke afterwards, but he chose not to.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Saru said:


> When did he use violence unnecessarily?



When he tortured Kakashi & Sasuke. Against Kakashi he didn't need to use 72 hour Tsukuyomi, he could have just beaten him up or gave him a 24 hour one. I don't need to explain about Sasuke. 



> There was no need to keep Kabuto alive after the Edo Tensei had been released. Itachi could have killed him right there, but he chose not to.



I know, I'm talking about his initial reasons though.


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> When he tortured Kakashi & Sasuke. Against Kakashi he didn't need to use 72 hour Tsukuyomi, he could have just beaten him up or gave him a 24 hour one. I don't need to explain about Sasuke.




Sasuke could take it, and he did that for Sasuke's sake because he thought turning Sasuke into an avenger was a good idea.

Kakashi stated that Itachi could have killed him there if he had wanted to. The takeaway is that Itachi went easy on Kakashi, not that he went too rough on him or used unnecessary force. If Itachi didn't rough Kakashi up at all, it would look suspicious to Kisame. Kisame was well aware of Itachi's capabilities.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> When he tortured Kakashi & Sasuke. Against Kakashi he didn't need to use 72 hour Tsukuyomi, he could have just beaten him up or gave him a 24 hour one. I don't need to explain about Sasuke.
> 
> 
> 
> I know, I'm talking about his initial reasons though.





I doubt a 24 Hour Tsukuyomi would put Kakashi down.. At least it wouldn't make him pass out. Also to make it realistic in front of Kisame. (Which Kisame was surprised Kakashi survived) and now we all know why, since Itachi could have made the Tsukuyomi last for weeks, months or even years.

For Sasuke it was probably to keep his evil persona active.


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## Bringer (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Why not kill Orochimaru when he had the chance then instead of firing a warning shot?



I said I think it was a warning shot. Itachi probably wasn't taking Orochimaru seriously at the beginning of the battle. Both Itachi and Orochimaru can be pretty arrogant. 

I'm not sure decapitating Orochimaru would work. For all we know snakes would shoot out of his neck and head and reattach itself. 

Also I'm not really sure what we're arguing. All I'm saying is without MS I don't see Itachi beating Orochimaru, and that's something you agreed with a month ago.



Itachі said:


> Kakuzu still has hearts so the poison will probably just destroy those.
> 
> I don't think that Itachi has a good chance with only 3 Tomoe either. For me it's 8/10 to Orochimaru, can't see him getting caught in 3 Tomoe Genjutsu but Utakata is still an option.











> How? He'd be unable to do anything, you didn't see Kakashi doing anything when he ate a Tsukuyomi.



He didn't fall unconscious immediately after being hit by it. Orochimaru would have time to spit out a new body. 




> That's true actually, my mistake. Orochimaru saw Totsuka and he wasn't fazed by it until after he was stabbed by it, he also wasn't fazed by being stabbed. Orochimaru's research combined with his arrogance may have meant that he already knew about Susano'o or he just didn't care, Orochimaru was in his strongest form after all. Though I'm not saying it's impossible of course.



Sure, maybe he didn't care, but I say it's most likely he saw Susanoo before. 




> With what? He was a giant snake and *if Itachi cut any part of the snake he would have die.*



Wait what?


----------



## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Saru said:


> Sasuke could take it, and he did that for Sasuke's sake because he thought it was a good idea.
> 
> Kakashi stated that Itachi could have killed him there if he had wanted to. The takeaway is that Itachi went easy on Kakashi, not that he went too rough on him. If Itachi didn't rough Kakashi up at all, it would look suspicious to Kisame.



Yes, but it's still unneccessary, no? Itachi was a Shinobi before he even took part in the massacre, he definitely wasn't opposed to violence. Because pacifists refrain from any violence whatsoever. Why would a pacifist witness a war and then become a Shinobi?


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Yes, but it's still unneccessary, no?




It was completely necessary in both cases. In Sasuke's case, Itachi needed to give Sasuke a focal point for his hatred and show him what the Sharingan was capable of. Itachi had planned for Sasuke to overcome Tsukuyomi in his final fight with him, and the other instances in which he used Tsukuyomi were intended to build Sasuke up for that moment. In Kakashi's case, it was necessary for Itachi to show his allegiance to Akatsuki by using one of his most powerful jutsu. Itachi needed some sort of excuse to retreat, and that was likely the simplest way for Itachi to get out of that situation.




> Itachi was a Shinobi before he even took part in the massacre, he definitely wasn't opposed to violence. Because pacifists refrain from any violence whatsoever. Why would a pacifist witness a war and then become a Shinobi?




Pacifists don't refrain from any violence; they're opposed to it. Big difference. Itachi never killed anyone he didn't feel like he had to kill.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Yes, but it's still unneccessary, no? Itachi was a Shinobi before he even took part in the massacre, he definitely wasn't opposed to violence. Because pacifists refrain from any violence whatsoever. Why would a pacifist witness a war and then become a Shinobi?





I think you should read the Itachi Shinden to answer that question.


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## Bringer (Feb 19, 2016)

So wait, putting Kakashi and Sasuke in a coma was necessary violence? You do realize Itachi lucked out because their asses would've still been in a coma if it weren't for Tsunade.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I said I think it was a warning shot. Itachi probably wasn't taking Orochimaru seriously at the beginning of the battle. Both Itachi and Orochimaru can be pretty arrogant.
> 
> I'm not sure decapitating Orochimaru would work. For all we know snakes would shoot out of his neck and head and reattach itself



Since when has Itachi been arrogant? He's always took his opponents abilities into consideration, complimenting Kakashi & Naruto, etc.

True about decapitation.



> Also I'm not really sure what we're arguing. All I'm saying is without MS I don't see Itachi beating Orochimaru, and that's something you agreed with a month ago.



That's because Orochimaru had full knowledge there and he'd really have no reason not to go into his strongest form. I think that 3 Tomoe Itachi defeated Orochimaru back in the day but there's no way to know for sure. He looked defeated to me, dude was sweating and shitting himself when his arm was chopped off.



> He didn't fall unconscious immediately after being hit by it. Orochimaru would have time to spit out a new body.



And Itachi could do the same to that body as well. I disagree though, I don't think Orochimaru should be able to use any Ninjutsu after the mental damage that Tsukuyomi would cause.



> Sure, maybe he didn't care, but I say it's most likely he saw Susanoo before.



We can agree to disagree.



> Wait what?



Oh, I was thinking of the form that Orochimaru used against Sasuke, poison would have paralysed Sasuke if he cut it iirc.


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> So wait, putting Kakashi and Sasuke in a coma was necessary violence? You do realize Itachi lucked out because their asses would've still been in a coma if it weren't for Tsunade.




You _really_ think Itachi intended to put Sasuke in a coma for the rest of his life? Come on, now.

Do note that Itachi and Kisame were in the village around the time that the Konoha elders approached Jiraiya about the vacant Hokage position.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Saru said:


> It was completely necessary in both cases. In Sasuke's case, Itachi needed to give Sasuke a focal point for his hatred and show him what the Sharingan was capable of. Itachi had planned for Sasuke to overcome Tsukuyomi in his final fight with him, and the other instances in which he used Tsukuyomi were intended to build Sasuke up for that moment. In Kakashi's case, it was necessary for Itachi to show his allegiance to Akatsuki by using one of his most powerful jutsu. Itachi needed some sort of excuse to retreat, and that was likely the simplest way for Itachi to get out of that situation.
> 
> Pacifists don't refrain from any violence; they're opposed to it. Big difference. Itachi never killed anyone he didn't feel like he had to kill.



Yes, but Sasuke already hated him enough without the torture. He didn't need to use MS by doing that, he could have taken out Kakashi with some Taijutsu or even used a shorter Tsukuyomi on him.

So you're saying that Itachi was opposed to all violence yet he participated in violence? What would that make him?


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Would a pacifist do this? 



Remember that he wanted Obito dead too.


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Yes, but Sasuke already hated him enough without the torture. He didn't need to use MS by doing that, he could have taken out Kakashi with some Taijutsu or even used a shorter Tsukuyomi on him.




Taijutsu? Kakashi was rusty in Part 1 but he wasn't that rusty. And let's be real here, Kisame could have soloed Asuma and Kurenai. You want Itachi to get into an extended taijutsu exchange with Kakashi while Kisame fights Asuma and Kurenai _on a lake_? Do you see the danger and lack of control in that situation?




> So you're saying that Itachi was opposed to all violence yet he participated in violence? What would that make him?




He resorted to violence when absolutely necessary.



Itachі said:


> Would a pacifist do this?




It had to done; Shisui's eye was dangerous in the wrong hands.




> Remember that he wanted Obito dead too.




Itachi is one man; he's not god. He could only do and account for so much _after_ his death. What else was he supposed to do that would be guaranteed to work on Madara? Tsukuyomi? That can be broken by an Uchiha. Kotoamatsukami? No, that was saved for Sasuke.


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## Icegaze (Feb 19, 2016)

Nope 

though it depends how you define it 

For me he can't beat Mei the weakest kage who has feats so he isn't kage level 

Would he beat the likes of Chiyo etc sure he will 

However with 3 T limitation I don't see any of the 5 kages not murderinf him badly


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Saru said:


> Taijutsu? Kakashi was rusty in Part 1 but he wasn't that rusty. And let's be real here, Kisame could have soloed Asuma and Kurenai. You want Itachi to get into an extended taijutsu exchange with Kakashi while Kisame fights Asuma and Kurenai _on a lake_? Do you see the danger and lack of control in that situation?
> 
> He resorted to violence when absolutely necessary.
> 
> ...



Dude, Itachi committed violence that was not necessary. Your first point is good but it doesn't change that Itachi didn't have to use violence.

- Sasuke's torture while beneficial to his plan wasn't necessary no matter how you slice it, he already hated Itachi enough

- Itachi didn't have to Ama the crow, he could have just crushed Shisui's eye


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Dude, Itachi committed violence that was not necessary. Your first point is good but it doesn't change that Itachi didn't have to use violence.
> 
> - Sasuke's torture while beneficial to his plan wasn't necessary no matter how you slice it, he already hated Itachi enough




How was it unnecessary? Itachi had a plan for Sasuke, and Tsukuyomi was necessary to that plan. Are you saying Itachi tortured Sasuke for no reason? Because that doesn't make a lick of sense.




> Itachi didn't have to Ama the crow, he could have just crushed Shisui's eye




The crow would have no eye.

What kinda life is that?


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Saru said:


> How was it unnecessary? Itachi had a plan for Sasuke, and Tsukuyomi was necessary to that plan. Are you saying Itachi tortured Sasuke for no reason? Because that doesn't make a lick of sense.



No it wasn't. The torture definitely helped but it wasn't necessary. Do you think Sasuke would have dropped everything if Itachi didn't torture him? His speech and the massacre was enough to rattle Sasuke's cage.



> The crow would have no eye.
> 
> What kinda life is that?



A life spared by Itachi sama :ignoramus


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> No it wasn't. The torture definitely helped but it wasn't necessary. Do you think Sasuke would have dropped everything if Itachi didn't torture him? His speech and the massacre was enough to rattle Sasuke's cage.




Apparently Itachi wanted to push Sasuke further as part of his plan. Again, do you think Itachi tortured Sasuke for no reason? Because that's basically what you're telling me if you're saying Itachi used unnecessary force.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Saru said:


> Apparently Itachi wanted to push Sasuke further as part of his plan. Again, do you think Itachi tortured Sasuke for no reason? Because that's basically what you're telling me if you're saying Itachi used unnecessary force.



You're putting crows into my mouth now. I said that it wasn't necessary, not that it was for no reason. Itachi obviously had a reason for torturing Sasuke but he didn't need to. For example, Itachi could bring out Mangekyo against Hidan as assurance but it wouldn't be necessary. Itachi torturing Sasuke benefitted his plan but it wasn't necessary.


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> You're putting crows into my mouth now. I said that it wasn't necessary, not that it was for no reason. Itachi obviously had a reason for torturing Sasuke but he didn't need to. For example, Itachi could bring out Mangekyo against Hidan as assurance but it wouldn't be necessary. Itachi torturing Sasuke benefitted his plan but it wasn't necessary.




So you're saying Itachi caused Sasuke unnecessary pain? Why?


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Saru said:


> So you're saying Itachi caused Sasuke unnecessary pain? Why?



Because it made Sasuke stronger and benefitted Itachi's plan. Again, it's not like Sasuke would have dropped everything if Itachi didn't beat him up or use Tsukuyomi on him. Sasuke would have still hated Itachi immensely.


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Because it made Sasuke stronger and benefitted Itachi's plan. Again, it's not like Sasuke would have dropped everything if Itachi didn't beat him up or use Tsukuyomi on him. Sasuke would have still hated Itachi immensely.




Okay, so are you saying Itachi is dumb? Because you deny that what Itachi did was _necessary_ to his plan, yet you say that Sasuke benefitted from Itachi's plan as intended.

So either Itachi was stupid and used excessive force when it wasn't necessary, or Itachi was a fucking maniac and tortured his little brother for kicks.

... _Or_, Itachi used the amount of force he found appropriate for his plan.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Saru said:


> Okay, so are you saying Itachi is dumb? Because you deny that what Itachi did was _necessary_ to his plan, yet you say that Sasuke benefitted from Itachi's plan as intended.
> 
> So either Itachi was stupid and used excessive force when it wasn't necessary, or Itachi was a fucking maniac and tortured his little brother for kicks.
> 
> ... _Or_, Itachi used the amount of force he found appropriate for his plan.



Really? 

Itachi used unnecessary violence but it helped his plans by boosting Sasuke's development that much further. That's it.


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Really?
> 
> Itachi used unnecessary violence but it helped his plans by boosting Sasuke's development that much further. That's it.




Nah. It doesn't work like that. You can't just draw a simple conclusion that Itachi used "unnecessary" violence based _on inference_ and then refuse to acknowledge the context or look deeper. You can't just ignore the fact that there are plot elements that poke holes in your assumption and continue to call it valid. That's not it.

You're completely ignoring Itachi's thought process and reasoning for his actions.


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## Dr. White (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Would a pacifist do this?
> 
> 
> 
> Remember that he wanted Obito dead too.



This argument is bad Itachi. Being a pacafist is a general term applied to one who follows said idealogy. That does not mean they 100% of the time don't ever commit actions that can be qualified as violent  Like you reached into the basement on this one

Itachi needed to resort to violence as a spy. Some undercover cops have to do dirty things to keep their cover and Itachi was no exception. He killed his clan for the greater good because it would end in more peace (this is what he thought). Tsukyomi needed to be landed on Sasuke to reestablish the motivations from years ago. You forget ITachi was not around Sasuke and could not guarantee he still wanted to devote his life to revenge (which lo and behold was the case), so making him relieve it was a safety measure, the one time he would get the chance as a spy to visit Konoha.

Idealogy has to meet practicality. As long as Itachi's motivations were peace in the end, and he minimized violence as well as he could, he could still be termed as a pacifist.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Saru said:


> Nah. It doesn't work like that. You can't just draw a simple conclusion that Itachi used "unnecessary" violence based _on inference_ and then refuse to acknowledge the context or look deeper. You can't just ignore the fact that there are plot elements that poke holes in your assumption and continue to call it valid. That's not it.
> 
> You're completely ignoring Itachi's thought process and reasoning for his actions.



What are you talking about? I'm not saying that he did it for no reason, I'm saying that _he didn't have to go that far_. Sasuke already hated him and Sasuke was already strong, him torturing Sasuke just boosted Sasuke and gave him a push. Basically, it wasn't necessary but it helped his plan.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> This argument is bad Itachi. Being a pacafist is a general term applied to one who follows said idealogy. That does not mean they 100% of the time don't ever commit actions that can be qualified as violent  Like you reached into the basement on this one
> 
> Itachi needed to resort to violence as a spy. Some undercover cops have to do dirty things to keep their cover and Itachi was no exception. He killed his clan for the greater good because it would end in more peace (this is what he thought). Tsukyomi needed to be landed on Sasuke to reestablish the motivations from years ago. You forget ITachi was not around Sasuke and could not guarantee he still wanted to devote his life to revenge (which lo and behold was the case), so making him relieve it was a safety measure, the one time he would get the chance as a spy to visit Konoha.
> 
> Idealogy has to meet practicality. As long as Itachi's motivations were peace in the end, and he minimized violence as well as he could, he could still be termed as a pacifist.



Why did Itachi become a Shinobi? I agree that he disliked violence, I disagree that the guy was a pacifist.


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> What are you talking about? I'm not saying that he did it for no reason, I'm saying that _he didn't have to go that far_. Sasuke already hated him and Sasuke was already strong, him torturing Sasuke just boosted Sasuke and gave him a push. Basically, it wasn't necessary but it helped his plan.




I understand that, but you haven't addressed the question: *Why did Itachi go that far if it wasn't necessary to his plan?*

Do remember that Itachi is a ticking time bomb due to his illness and the collection of the Tailed Beasts.


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## Dr. White (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Why did Itachi become a Shinobi? I agree that he disliked violence, I disagree that the guy was a pacifist.



Because he wanted to change the ninja world? This was explained by Obito wayyy back when told Sasuke the truth and rehashed multiple times. He just realized being purely idealistic isn't going to accomplish anything. You can fight for protection and need and still be a pacifist. You don't have to be an extreme pacifist to fit the definition, like "I will sit here and let you slit my throat brother because I love you.".

Itachi was able to see through the system (the same one which led to Obito, Madara, etc hating the world which makes up most of the problems) and helped in whichever way possible, which in his case was picking Village safety over clan name and association.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Saru said:


> I understand that, but you haven't addressed the question: *Why did Itachi go that far if it wasn't necessary to his plan?*





Itachі said:


> him torturing Sasuke just boosted Sasuke and gave him a push. Basically, it wasn't necessary but it helped his plan.





Itachі said:


> Because it made Sasuke stronger and benefitted Itachi's plan.





Itachі said:


> Itachi used unnecessary violence but it helped his plans by boosting Sasuke's development that much further. That's it.


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

That boost _was_ necessary. 

Prove that it wasn't necessary, because it makes a hell of a lot more sense for Itachi to have used Tsukuyomi if it _was_ necessary rather than if it wasn't necessary.


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## Itachі (Feb 19, 2016)

Saru said:


> That boost _was_ necessary.
> 
> Prove that it wasn't necessary, because it makes a hell of a lot more sense for Itachi to have used Tsukuyomi if it _was_ necessary rather than if it wasn't necessary.



I obviously can't _prove_ anything but it's just my take on it. But no, there's no proof that Sasuke would have become less angry if Itachi didn't use Tsukuyomi on him. He was letting go of his hatred mid Part 1 but Itachi put it back in place by humiliating him with physical violence and calling him weak, Tsukuyomi was just the cherry on top. 

Anyway this isn't really how I wanted the thread to turn out, lol...


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## Saru (Feb 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I obviously can't _prove_ anything but it's just my take on it. But no, there's no proof that Sasuke would have become less angry if Itachi didn't use Tsukuyomi on him. He was letting go of his hatred mid Part 1 but Itachi put it back in place by humiliating him with physical violence and calling him weak, Tsukuyomi was just the cherry on top.
> 
> Anyway this isn't really how I wanted the thread to turn out, lol...




It's like you're agreeing and disagreeing at the same time. 

Your take on things doesn't make any sense based on everything else that we know about Itachi. Simply put, if Itachi didn't think Tsukuyomi was necessary, he wouldn't have used it because he loved Sasuke. But I digress.

*OT:* Itachi doesn't need the Mangekyou to beat other Kage.


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## Dr. White (Feb 19, 2016)

But yeah 3 tomoe Itachi is one hundred percent Kage level.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 19, 2016)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Deidara was not Kage-level back then, and Orochimaru wasn't fighting to kill.


Even so, doing what he did to them with such ease, especially Orochimaru, should put him firmly in the Kage bracket.



Turrin said:


> As I said in another thread about Kage-level, the Kage is elected for their power to protect their hidden village. So even if Itachi might have a small chance of beating the weakest Kages w/ just 3-T, most of those "weak" Kages are environmental fighters whose powers are greatly enhanced on their home turf. For example Gaara and Rasa are topographically advantaged in the desert and Mei is likely topographically advantaged in Kiri which has an abundance of massive water sources and natural occurring mists. Itachi is not likely stepping to even the weaker Kages when on their home turf, nor able to defend their villages as effectively as they can on their home turf.



Kage don't only fight on their home turf, and in fact that's something they'd actually want to avoid. The majority of Kage don't gain topographical advantage either bar their naturally higher knowledge of the terrain. This isn't the measure of a Kage in the least.

That, and both Gaara and Rasa lost to Deidara and Orochimaru respectively while in their own villages, the former of which who was low on clay and not even going for the kill.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 19, 2016)

VolatileSoul said:


> He used 3 tomoe to shit on both Oro and Deidara without difficulty, so yes. I'd say he is.



No. Sick Oro with no intent to kill is not Kage level. Either is 9 year old Deidara. Itachi needed MS to beat Part 1 Kakashi, who is a Jonin level. 

3 Tomoe Itachi is Jonin level.
Tsukuyomi jumps him to Low Kage.
Amaterasu jumps him to Mid Kage.
Susano'o jumps him to High Kage.

End of.


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## Rai (Feb 19, 2016)

Yes.

He negged Orochimaru with low difficulty.


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 19, 2016)

He trashed Orochimaru in mere seconds. 

He can't be anything less than Kage level.


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2016)

Even if we ignore the whole thing that happened with Orochimaru, base Itachi is still one of the stronger Kage-tier characters. He doesn't have a "finishing move", but he brings a complete game to the table. He's basically prime Hiruzen but genjutsu-based instead of ninjutsu-based.


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## Dr. White (Feb 19, 2016)

Lets not forget Anbu Itachi schooling 3 Jonin level Uchiha in CqC.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Even if we ignore the whole thing that happened with Orochimaru, base Itachi is still one of the stronger Kage-tier characters. He doesn't have a "finishing move", but he brings a complete game to the table. He's basically prime Hiruzen but genjutsu-based instead of ninjutsu-based.



Yup. **


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 19, 2016)

Easily.

Itachi can effectively dismantle most kages with just genjutsu if they don't have exclusive manga knowledge. Thats how scary he is.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 19, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> No. Sick Oro with no intent to kill is not Kage level. Either is 9 year old Deidara. Itachi needed MS to beat Part 1 Kakashi, who is a Jonin level.



Pretty sure Itachi was the terminally ill one, and he had no intent to kill either. Oro was in perfect health and had all his jutsu to boot. 

I recall Itachi using MS. I don't recall anything about him _needing_ it. Unless you think he needed it for 12 year old Sasuke.


> 3 Tomoe Itachi is Jonin level.
> Tsukuyomi jumps him to Low Kage.
> Amaterasu jumps him to Mid Kage.
> Susano'o jumps him to High Kage.
> ...



Unless he's bedridden and jutsuless like against Sasuke, Orochimaru is not getting beaten by mere Jonin, let alone curbstomped like Itachi did. This is the same man that stalemated KN4 Naruto while his body was rejecting him and without conventional techniques.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 20, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> No. Sick Oro with no intent to kill is not Kage level. Either is 9 year old Deidara. Itachi needed MS to beat Part 1 Kakashi, who is a Jonin level.
> 
> 3 Tomoe Itachi is Jonin level.
> Tsukuyomi jumps him to Low Kage.
> ...





3 tomoe Itachi is Jonin level... Haha.    13 Year old 3 Tomoe Itachi put 3 Adult Uchiha (3tomoe) down with Taijutsu alone.    Owned Orochimaru within a second and made Orochimaru ran and obsessed.    Nearly made deidara suicide (S class criminal) since he was INVITED to join Akatsuki.

These feats can't be done by a mere "Jonin Level".


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## Sans (Feb 20, 2016)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Deidara was not Kage-level back then, and Orochimaru wasn't fighting to kill.



terrible post

who do you think you are?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 20, 2016)

3 T. Itachi is the Kakashi of kages.  He can fight them and do okay but comes up short.  Weak stamina and poor killing power combined with normal durability and water wall defence do him in.  He could possibly beat Old Hiruzen consistently.


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## Saru (Feb 20, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> 3 T. Itachi is the Kakashi of kages.  He can fight them and do okay but comes up short.  Weak stamina and poor killing power combined with normal durability and water wall defence do him in.  He could possibly beat Old Hiruzen consistently.




Decapitation via kunai is lethal against most Kage.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 20, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> 3 T. Itachi is the Kakashi of kages.  He can fight them and do okay but comes up short.  Weak stamina and poor killing power combined with normal durability and water wall defence do him in.  He could possibly beat Old Hiruzen consistently.



Imo genjutsu can be considered finishing power against people with no innate defenses or perfect counters for it, which are handful of shinobi.


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## Indra (Feb 20, 2016)

Sure, if you consider Orochimaru Kage Level, then Itachi is definitely Kage Level with 3Tomoe.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 20, 2016)

When Itachi put Bee in a temporary genjutsu his follow up was to throw regular shuriken at him.  That was when his body was programmed to kill.  Even Hiruzen has Enma to bail him out in the worst case scenario.  In the Orochimaru example, Orochimaru lived, and with proper use of kb and lac he can win that fight against 3 T Itachi.  Such a strategy would be more imaginable within the story than the kunai decapitation argument.


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2016)

VolatileSoul said:


> Kage don't only fight on their home turf, and in fact that's something they'd actually want to avoid. The majority of Kage don't gain topographical advantage either bar their naturally higher knowledge of the terrain. This isn't the measure of a Kage in the least.
> 
> That, and both Gaara and Rasa lost to Deidara and Orochimaru respectively while in their own villages, the former of which who was low on clay and not even going for the kill.


Someone is elected Kage for two main reasons to govern and protect the village. So when talking about how strong someone needs to be Kage, it has to do with their "power-level" in relation to protecting the village. 99% of the time that means how strong are they on their home turf. Yes there are some rare exceptions, but I don't think decisions are being made based on those rare exceptions, especially when those rare exceptions occur, most of the time the Kages are sent w/ back up; like at the Kage summit they each took two of their elites with them.


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## Itachі (Feb 20, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> When Itachi put Bee in a temporary genjutsu his follow up was to throw regular shuriken at him.  That was when his body was programmed to kill.  Even Hiruzen has Enma to bail him out in the worst case scenario.  In the Orochimaru example, Orochimaru lived, and with proper use of kb and lac he can win that fight against 3 T Itachi.  Such a strategy would be more imaginable within the story than the kunai decapitation argument.



Orochimaru isn't Killer Bee.


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2016)

I don't even know why you guys think beheading would work when Sasuke literally cut Orochimaru's true body into pieces and it did nothing to him.

Itachi needs Tsukuyomi, Izanami, or Totsuka to beat Orochimaru, end of story.


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## Itachі (Feb 20, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I don't even know why you guys think beheading would work when Sasuke literally cut Orochimaru's true body into pieces and it did nothing to him.
> 
> Itachi needs Tsukuyomi, Izanami, or Totsuka to beat Orochimaru, end of story.



I'm not sure that beheading would work but I don't think anything suggests that it wouldn't when Orochimaru's in his human form. Dude used Oral Rebirth when he got his arm chopped off, he's not immune to everything. Though he's alright against bisection attempts.


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## Dr. White (Feb 20, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> When Itachi put Bee in a temporary genjutsu his follow up was to throw regular shuriken at him.  That was when his body was programmed to kill.  Even Hiruzen has Enma to bail him out in the worst case scenario.  In the Orochimaru example, Orochimaru lived, and with proper use of kb and lac he can win that fight against 3 T Itachi.  Such a strategy would be more imaginable within the story than the kunai decapitation argument.


Lmao why are you assuming everyone will be able to have their summon help them even if they have a summon? Itachi still has 3 tomoe, top tier Juts execution, and much faster than movement speed than most people on Kage level. 

Oro wouldn't have lived. The whole encounter showed absolute dominance on Itachi's end. It was even highlighted that while Sasuke needed Oro weakened, Itachi 2 paneled him in prime condition. Itachi checkmated him with 3 tomoe and a kunai. That's just how efficient he is with his base arsenal.

Why would you just grant Oro "proper KB use" when Itachi is the kinf of feints himself, faster than Oro, and can still use a multitude of genjutsu to put Oro down? 



Turrin said:


> I don't even know why you guys think beheading would work when Sasuke literally cut Orochimaru's true body into pieces and it did nothing to him.
> 
> Itachi needs Tsukuyomi, Izanami, or Totsuka to beat Orochimaru, end of story.


A.) Because as shown, Oro cannot heal while under Genjutsu fucking his mind up.
B.) Oro wasn't in genjutsu when Sasuke cut him up.

The whole point of the exchange was to show Itachi's genjutsu was that lethal, and Itachi was smart enough to remove his ability to Kai or make jutsu for that immediate fight, which once again, is why Orochimaru fled, kept the hand as a keepsake, and laments on how Itachi is an unreachable goal, the hypothetical skeleton key to Konoha's destruction, and unbeatable by himself.

Pretty cut and dry when you just read it objectively and give Itachi his due.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 20, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I don't even know why you guys think beheading would work when Sasuke literally cut Orochimaru's true body into pieces and it did nothing to him.
> 
> Itachi needs Tsukuyomi, Izanami, or Totsuka to beat Orochimaru, end of story.



Probably because Oro was in his human form and not a giant white snake when Itachi chopped off his hand.

As we've seen against KN3, Oro can't regenerate limbs or attach them like white snake parts, he needed to use a kawarimi to shrug off an attack of that scale.

Against Itachi he was paralyzed so he couldn't use anything.


I love how people still try to no sell Itachi's genjutsu and assume it is a nonfactor in any high level battle


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## Dr. White (Feb 20, 2016)

Mindfuck that's easier to implement than most Nin or Taijutsu, in which actively avoiding it heavily decreases battle efficiency?

Nah, that shit aint effective son.


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## Saru (Feb 20, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Mindfuck that's easier to implement than most Nin or Taijutsu, in which actively avoiding it heavily decreases battle efficiency?
> 
> Nah, that shit aint effective son.




Of course, because any Kage-level ninja can break out of Sharingan Genjutsu easily. Besides, genjutsu + kunai is something that would _never_ happen in the manga. Orochimaru was an exception.


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 20, 2016)

Did people read the Kages Arc ?, Sasuke didn't become a threat to a kage level ninja until he developed his MS , Kirin is better than anything non-MS Itachi is capable of and even with that Sasuke isn't a true kage level shinobi , is Itachi powerful sure , but its his MS techniques that truly make him kage level


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## Matty (Feb 20, 2016)

This is a question? Absolutely he is

If Kimimaro is considered "Lw Kage" and so is Chiyo and Hidan then Itachi is absolutely kage level. HIs 3T genjutsu, Katons, and his speed and kunai prowess alone are low kage material. Adding MS makes him High tier, EMS would be god tier


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## Sadgoob (Feb 20, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> Did people read the Kages Arc ?, Sasuke didn't become a threat to a kage level ninja until he developed his MS , Kirin is better than anything non-MS Itachi is capable of and even with that Sasuke isn't a true kage level shinobi , is Itachi powerful sure , but its his MS techniques that truly make him kage level



Pre-MS Sasuke beat Deidara, who not only beat a Kage, but openly captured one in his own village with a huge environmental advantage. So pre-MS Sasuke was handling Kage just fine.

The MS "finishers" puts ninja _above_ Kage level. Sasuke was only rivaled by the strongest/leader of the Gokage (A) when he had an un-mastered MS, even before awakening v2 Susano'o. 

Remember, Orochimaru said beating Itachi was _impossible_. I don't think Orochimaru considered any of the Gokage to be "impossible" for him. Hence MS raised Itachi clear above that point.​


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## Saru (Feb 20, 2016)

I think the problem is that people underrate the effectiveness of genjutsu and a mere kunai. Tsunade, Gai, Hiruzen, Jiraiya, Muu, Mei, Konan... Are any of these people immune or resistant to Sharingan Genjutsu? Are any of these people immune to a kunai slashing their throat? I rest my case. Now obviously some of the people that I mentioned are able to deal with 3-TS Itachi through higher forms or some part of their arsenal, but a kunai is still enough to end a match even if it's not the most flashy of means.


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## Itachі (Feb 20, 2016)

People generally underestimate the effectiveness of Genjutsu, people randomly give characters the ability to instantly realise that they're in a Genjutsu and break out of it. Partner method also gets wanked a lot, somehow a character's summon is going to run over to the victim of Genjutsu and break them out of it while the Genjutsu caster is going to just walk towards their opponent at a snail's pace. Some ask for evidence that Itachi can do x with Genjutsu but then automatically give characters caught in Genjutsu the benefit of the doubt. Part 2 Naruto was literally taught how to escape Genjutsu by Jiraiya and he was still _absolutely helpless_ to it. That should really tell people something.


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> f
> A.) Because as shown, Oro cannot heal while under Genjutsu fucking his mind up.


Fanfiction 



> B.) Oro wasn't in genjutsu when Sasuke cut him up.
> .


Cool, Genjutsu doesn't stop regeneration



> The whole point of the exchange was to show Itachi's genjutsu was that lethal, and Itachi was smart enough to remove his ability to Kai or make jutsu for that immediate fight, which once again, is why Orochimaru fled, kept the hand as a keepsake, and laments on how Itachi is an unreachable goal, the hypothetical skeleton key to Konoha's destruction, and unbeatable by himself.
> 
> Pretty cut and dry when you just read it objectively and give Itachi his due


Reading it objectively is acknowledging that Orochimaru has casually tanked attacks way beyond what a Kunai could accomplish, and realizing that there is no way in hell Itachi could have killed Orochimaru w/ it.

Itachi demonstrated his superiority by countering whatever Jutsu Orochimaru tried to use to steal his body w/ the Binding Genjutsu and than countering Orochimaru from Kai'ing out of it. He was countering Orochimaru's every move, and thus giving off the aura of superiority; to both the reader and Orochimaru. That doesn't mean that he had defeated or could have defeated Orochimaru w/ Three-Tome, it just showed that no matter what Orochimaru tried Itachi would have answer to it. And later we see that again when Orochimaru pulls out Yamata no Orochi and Itachi counters it w/ Totsuka; and again against Kabuto, when he counter's Kabuto's Edo-Tensei w/ Izanami (albeit he needed help, but than Kabuto > Orochimaru). 

Simply put the scene was there to show that Itachi had Orochimaru's number, not as a decisive conclusion to how the fight would go, if both went all out for the kill.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Probably because Oro was in his human form and not a giant white snake when Itachi chopped off his hand.
> 
> As we've seen against KN3, Oro can't regenerate limbs or attach them like white snake parts, he needed to use a kawarimi to shrug off an attack of that scale.
> 
> ...


LOL, he was slashed in half and stitched himself together like nothing against KN4. He threw up an entire new body completely regenerated against KN3. He took a slashing attack to the face from KN1 that sent him flying through the forest, and he survive. Laughed at Susano'o's giant sword stabbing through him. Yet you think a Kunai is going to kill him. Please spare me your bullshit Grim.


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## Dr. White (Feb 20, 2016)

Turrin said:


> [Fanfiction


So Oro can lol stitch his body back together after being bisected, yet couldn't put his hand back? Why did he run away with his hand, and not be able to put it back on as it rotted?



> Cool, Genjutsu doesn't stop regeneration


Binding Genjutsu stops chakra flow which is why Uchiha couldn't keep up Susanoo, and why Killer Bee lost his shroud when hit binding genjutsu from MS Sasuke. His regen is not passive.



> Reading it objectively is acknowledging that Orochimaru has casually tanked attacks way beyond what a Kunai could accomplish, and realizing that there is no way in hell Itachi could have killed Orochimaru w/ it.


he's never done that while under mind control.

A Kunai can cut off Oro's head. Oro will die from decapitation. A tool is as effective as a shinobi makes it.



> That doesn't mean that he had defeated or could have defeated Orochimaru w/ Three-Tome, it just showed that no matter what Orochimaru tried Itachi would have answer to it. And later we see that again when Orochimaru pulls out Yamata no Orochi and Itachi counters it w/ Totsuka; and again against Kabuto, when he counter's Kabuto's Edo-Tensei w/ Izanami (albeit he needed help, but than Kabuto > Orochimaru).


Oro couldn't defend himself and can't live with his head cut off.



> Simply put the scene was there to show that Itachi had Orochimaru's number, not as a decisive conclusion to how the fight would go, if both went all out for the kill.


Idk why you are assuming Oro would get to use all of his jutsu, when Itachi would just counter his every move again, and kill him. 3 tomoe Itachi can't kill Oro in every scenario, but that example showed that Orochimaru (even with knowledge on sharingan) could lose to 3 tomoe Itachi.

It furthermore cements unrestricted Itachi's superiority > Oro as a whole.


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## Saru (Feb 20, 2016)

Turrin said:


> LOL, he was slashed in half and stitched himself together like nothing against KN4. He threw up an entire new body completely regenerated against KN3. He took a slashing attack to the face from KN1 that sent him flying through the forest, and he survive. Laughed at Susano'o's giant sword stabbing through him. Yet you think a Kunai is going to kill him. Please spare me your bullshit Grim.




He has a valid point. Tsunade can't heal from fatal injuries automatically without first activating Byakugou. Itachi can't tank Kirin without activating Susano'o or the Mangekyou. Naruto can't dodge the Raikage without entering SM. Orochimaru doesn't benefit from all of the abilities of the White Snake without first using WSM or Yamata no Jutsu. Orochimaru hasn't been shown to be capable of recovering from something without actively trying to do so in his standard state.


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 21, 2016)

> Pre-MS Sasuke beat Deidara, who not only beat a Kage, but openly captured one in his own village with a huge environmental advantage. So pre-MS Sasuke was handling Kage just fine.​




Gaara was not and I repeat was not a true kage level ninja at the start of pt 2 , he was selected for political reasons to control the tailed beast within him and no he could not use the environment to his advantage because he didn't want to crush the village , he could've defeated Deidara but at the cost of killing the villagers so he sacrificed himself , that was to show growth in Gaara's character attributed to Naruto , thats like saying because Sakura was able to defeat Sasori she was Kage level , or that Naruto was superior to Kakuzu he was kage level but even after FRS he still wasn't up to standard even Jiraiya says so , my take is that they were all strong jounin on there verge of Kage level, shit Sasuke was inferior to armless Orochimaru and Orochimaru even with arms wasn't much stronger and was stated by the fan book to be equal to Old Hiruzen .




> The MS "finishers" puts ninja _above_ Kage level. Sasuke was only rivaled by the strongest/leader of the Gokage (A) when he had an un-mastered MS, even before awakening v2 Susano'o.



No shit like 8th Gate , Juubi, Rinnegan , puts one above Kage level, right so you make my point w/o any MS usage and Sasuke dies in the summit , he couldnt hold his own w/o the usage of MS techniques .



> Remember, Orochimaru said beating Itachi was _impossible_. I don't think Orochimaru considered any of the Gokage to be "impossible" for him. Hence MS raised Itachi clear above that point.



Yeah because at the time he was armless and couldnt overtake the sharingan and even if we go by the theory Itachi is stronger in combat impossible is beyond the scope of what you're saying because you make it seems as if the battle is only limited to Itachi 3t , when in fact nothing in Itachi's base arsenal is putting down 8 branch technique , nothing .


What you and the other people saying contradicts the manga because in every important fight Itachi has been shown in the manga he's utilized MS, if MS wasn't derivative of his strength he wouldn't have been shown using it when important things are at stake , 


Heres a number chart for you 

if on a scale from 0-100 lets say 85 is Kage level 


Sakura, Naruto,Sasuke, Gaara after their battle against the atakuski before the Pain/Kage arc they were probably around a 70-75 

Itachi,Jiraiya,Orochimaru all whom have statements saying they are of a similar level were probably around 90

once Sasuke and Naruto acquired  SM and MS respectively they then reached the point where they can take on Kages(Sasuke) or be considered for the Kage position(Naruto)


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## Sorin (Feb 21, 2016)

Yes he is. Low kage but kage nonetheless. Genjutsu coupled with high speed jutsu execution can take out someone like Mei or old Hiruzen. His problem is destructive capacity. He has almost none in base. A goukakyu and a exploding bunshin is nothing to write about. Some of the higher kages can outright sit there and tank everything Itachi throws at them. If he had an affinity for raiton or futon i'd probably put him in the mid kage because with some enhanced wind/raiton kunais he would impale some brains in the upper echelon of kages.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 21, 2016)

Sorin said:


> Yes he is. Low kage but kage nonetheless. Genjutsu coupled with high speed jutsu execution can take out someone like Mei or old Hiruzen. His problem is destructive capacity. He has almost none in base. A goukakyu and a exploding bunshin is nothing to write about. Some of the higher kages can outright sit there and tank everything Itachi throws at them. If he had an affinity for raiton or futon i'd probably put him in the mid kage because with some enhanced wind/raiton kunais he would impale some brains in the upper echelon of kages.





Majority cannot in fact "tank" explosive bunshins/explosive tags/flamed shurikens/goukakyu etc.     Unless they already have their defenses activated like Raiton armour/Byakugo/sand shield etc.

The only 2 I can see tanking it without dying (albeit taking severe damage) are the Raikages and Gaara (body shield from part 1).


Even Hashirama (God of Shinobi) + Instant heal can die from a simple kunai stab in the stomach if he didn't activate his auto heal.   

And as far as I know, if the 3 tomoe can catch them in genjutsu before they put up any defensive measures, they're fucked.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 21, 2016)

Turrin said:


> LOL, he was slashed in half and stitched himself together like nothing against KN4.


As you can see, he attached his torso with those white snakes. Snakes don't have limbs, so he can't attach limbs.



> He threw up an entire new body completely regenerated against KN3.


Oral rebirth is kawarimi not Juubi level regeneration 



> He took a slashing attack to the face from KN1 that sent him flying through the forest, and he survive.


I don't how this is relevant. Oro is particularly durable against blunt trauma, he shrugged off Tsunade's punch too but Sasuke turned him into mince meat and he isn't as strong as those characters physically.



> Laughed at Susano'o's giant sword stabbing through him. Yet you think a Kunai is going to kill him.



He probably thought he could survive it with oral rebirth or it was a courtesy of his yamata form.

Although it is obviously not the same case when he was paralyzed and got his hand removed. As we've seen against Kn3 he can't regrow or regen or attach limbs so he needs to negate it with Kawarimi. He simply couldn't use any jutsu when he was paralyzed.

Also the point of that encounter is to show that he was @ Itachi's mercy. Itachi could have went for his head instead and killed him. 



> ]Please spare me your bullshit Grim.



I would ask you the same thing.


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## Turrin (Feb 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> So Oro can lol stitch his body back together after being bisected, yet couldn't put his hand back? Why did he run away with his hand, and not be able to put it back on as it rotted?


The hand is there for one reason, to act as a symbol of Orochimaru's defeat and defection from Akatsuki. It has nothing to do with Orochimaru's ability to regenerate.

In-fact we know Orochimaru regenerated that hand, because Hiruzen seals Orochimaru's arms in Part I and we learn in Part II this prevented Orochimaru from using Edo-Tensei, even when he used the arms of his host body. So if Orochimaru actually couldn't have regenerated his hand back, he wouldn't have been able to use Edo-Tensei in PI and Hiruzen wouldn't have been able to seal that arm in Part I. 



> Binding Genjutsu stops chakra flow which is why Uchiha couldn't keep up Susanoo, and why Killer Bee lost his shroud when hit binding genjutsu from MS Sasuke. His regen is not passive.


First off part of the regen is passive. Sasuke regenerated from his massive wounds against Deidara, w/o even knowing why until after the regenerate occured, only then hypothesizing it was the power of the the White Snake. 

Secondly if the Binding Genjtusu actually stopped someone's ability to manipulate their chakra than Orochimaru couldn't have used Kai in the first place, nor would Itachi have gone out of his way to cut Orochimaru's hand off to stop him from completing said Kai; rather the battle would have been done the moment he was bound. Orochimaru was also able to continue using Fuushi Tensei after being hit by the same binding Genjutsu by Sasuke in Part II.  

Beyond the direct counter examples, Itachi and Sasuke both had no problem molding chakra to utilize their own Genjutsu while under the effects of Senpo Mugen Onsa. Shikkamaru also had no problem molding chakra to use Shadow Bind while under Tayuya's version of that illusion. 

In Killer-B's case he was likely feigning defeat on purpose to lower Sasuke's guard, and than smash him w/ a lariate. It's not like that would be the first time, he's played dead to gain an opening.

Finally Orochimaru can also regenerate after the attack has already occurred, as he's survived worst attacks.



> A Kunai can cut off Oro's head. Oro will die from decapitation. A tool is as effective as a shinobi makes it.


First off I doubt a Kunai can decapitate Orochimaru, if KN1's Claw attack to the head didn't.

Secondly, Orochimaru has survived being bisect and being cut into three pieces, so he will survive beheading. 



> Oro couldn't defend himself and can't live with his head cut off.


Yet could live from being diced into multiple pieces by Sasuke and having Totsuka's massive sword go through him. Please..

Fuck a small portion of Orochimaru's chakra and a tiny bit of flesh regenerated into a full fleged Orochimaru despite, his entire body being sealed by Totsuka Sword. So just come on dude.



> Idk why you are assuming Oro would get to use all of his jutsu, when Itachi would just counter his every move again, and kill him. 3 tomoe Itachi can't kill Oro in every scenario, but that example showed that Orochimaru (even with knowledge on sharingan) could lose to 3 tomoe Itachi.


The example didn't show that as Orochimaru has laughed off much more critical injuries than having his hand cut of. The example showed Itachi had his number, if the fight continued however Orochimaru would have used more powerful Jutsu like Yamata no Orochi which would have required MS to deal w/. Not to mention Itachi would have needed MS to actually put down Orochimaru for good.


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## Garcher (Feb 21, 2016)

Itachi still easily beat Oro with 3 Tomoe ...


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 21, 2016)

Itachi lacks fire power, a colossal amount of it, he's never been a heavy hitter without his MS. However, he's easily more than capable of taking defending his village if kages were to attack or leading an attack to other villages if the occasion called for it. The only one I can see him losing against is maybe the Raikage but that's about it. He can more or less defeat the others with varying degrees of difficulty.

He has an overwhelming advantage in terms of genjutsu against any of the Gokage during the War Arc. People underestimate genjutsu since it lacks fire-power but he's easily just as dangerous with that as any of the others are with ninjutsu. It may lack the flare of a FRS or Kirin but it still gets the job done.

So to answer the question, yes Itachi is kage level without the MS, as long as we agree that raw offensive power isn't the only attribute we are looking it.


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## Android (Feb 21, 2016)

just fucking close this thread allready


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## Trojan (Feb 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> just fucking close this thread allready



Wiser words never spoken.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 21, 2016)

Sorin said:


> If he had an affinity for raiton or futon i'd probably put him in the mid kage because with some enhanced wind/raiton kunais he would impale some brains in the upper echelon of kages.



He does have the wind element according to DB4.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 21, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Someone is elected Kage for two main reasons to govern and protect the village. So when talking about how strong someone needs to be Kage, it has to do with their "power-level" in relation to protecting the village. 99% of the time that means how strong are they on their home turf. Yes there are some rare exceptions, but I don't think decisions are being made based on those rare exceptions, especially when those rare exceptions occur, most of the time the Kages are sent w/ back up; like at the Kage summit they each took two of their elites with them.



Aside from Suiton users in Kirigakure (going by a pic of the village, not even sure it has a water body in it) and Gaara in Suna, literally no Kage is advantaged in their home village anymore than they would be somewhere else, and at times it's actually disadvantageous since the enemy can use the village against them. In fact, every single instance of a fight in the village bar Hiruzen vs Orochimaru has been a disadvantage for the Kage.

*Gaara vs Deidara:* Lost entirely because Deidara forced him to defend the village, even though he was handily beating Deidara before that.

*Tsunade vs Pain:* Couldn't even fight at all due to needing to heal the villagers.

*Naruto vs Momoshiki:* Sasuke flat out says they can't fight because they're in the village, and Naruto intended to lead them away before being taken.

Meanwhile we have no example of fighting in the village being an advantage bar the aforementioned Deidara vs Gaara, which was turned into a disadvantage. Protecting the village is part of the deal of course, but that doesn't necessitate fighting _in_ the village.


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## Turrin (Feb 21, 2016)

VolatileSoul said:


> Aside from Suiton users in Kirigakure (going by a pic of the village, not even sure it has a water body in it) and Gaara in Suna, literally no Kage is advantaged in their home village anymore than they would be somewhere else,


My point was that the weaker Kages can be elected because their powers are enhanced on their home turf. Hence explaining why guys like SPII-Gaara, Mei, and Rasa could be elected, who are arguably the three weakest Kages we've seen.



> In fact, every single instance of a fight in the village bar Hiruzen vs Orochimaru has been a disadvantage for the Kage.
> 
> Gaara vs Deidara: Lost entirely because Deidara forced him to defend the village, even though he was handily beating Deidara before that.
> 
> ...


My point isn't about whether fighting around the village advantages or disadvantages a Kage more, my point is that the weaker Kages are able to operate at Kage level, because their powers are enhanced by the environment surrounding their home turf. Them having the disadvantage of protecting their village, doesn't change the fact that their powers are enhanced, enabling them to protect the village from attacks they otherwise could not have. 

Gaara not in the desert probably isn't able to protect a village sized area from a bomb like C3. Mei w/ Mist and water sources is probably able to defend threats she otherwise could not in areas that are lacking Mist/Water sources. And so on.

At the end of the day Gaara and Mei might still loose to whoever they are fighting, because said person uses the village against them, but their enhanced powers due to topography still will have enabled them to protect the village. Just like in the case of Deidara vs Gaara, Deidara used the village against him to mitigate Gaara's topographic advantage, but Gaara still protected the village from C3 even though he lost.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 21, 2016)

Turrin said:


> My point was that the weaker Kages can be elected because their powers are enhanced on their home turf. Hence explaining why guys like SPII-Gaara, Mei, and Rasa could be elected, who are arguably the three weakest Kages we've seen.
> 
> 
> My point isn't about whether fighting around the village advantages or disadvantages a Kage more, my point is that the weaker Kages are able to operate at Kage level, because their powers are enhanced by the environment surrounding their home turf. Them having the disadvantage of protecting their village, doesn't change the fact that their powers are enhanced, enabling them to protect the village from attacks they otherwise could not have.
> ...


Rasa doesn't get any advantage from simply being in Suna. Being elected for his ability to subdue Shukaku seems more plausible than that. But that's besides the overall point.

Protecting the village is well and all, but this is Itachi vs those respective Kage, not him versus their village. I don't think their ability to protect the village is any more relevant than their ability to run it in this specific thread, which is entirely about whether or not Itachi can fight on their level.

If you want to use 3 tomoe Itachi being able to protect his village as a measure of whether or not he's Kage level, then I'd understand.


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## Finalbeta (Feb 21, 2016)

Yeah above Sannin levels so yeah


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## Kor (Feb 21, 2016)

Itachi was pretty similar to Sasuke in some regards where later in the manga the bulk of his power comes from the Mangekyou Sharingan.

Without it and just the 3TS, he is without doubt high up in the pecking order. He's someone who has relied on speed and surprise attacks to settle a fight quickly otherwise the odds start turning against him.

Looking at Itachi vs Sasuke, his raw speed allowed him to make a shadow clone while throwing and deflecting shuriken. He kept pace with KCM Naruto in taijutsu.

He resorts to various fire jutsu for mid range attacks or uses a genjutsu to trap his opponent. Not very impressive as the War Arc inflated power levels and you needed a bijuu or sharingan to stay relevant but his method has always been to finish quickly.

Against someone like Jiraiya who needs prep to use his full power Itachi would excel in that situation. Against someone like Raikage he wouldn't last very long until he is forced to draw out Susanoo. 

He's someone between mid tier and high tier with just the 3TS.


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## RikudouSusanoo (Feb 21, 2016)

Depending on the opponent of the starting list. To some, he might lose. But most of the list can be beaten by 3 Tomoe Itachi in my opinion. 

He just has the abilities to end the fight quickly enough with Sharingan Genjutsus. Thats his greatest strength. Combined with his high intelligence, he is a deadly foe to anyone not having special defence against Genjutsu. Even if someone is theoretically able to break out of a Genjutsu, it sill takes time. According to the "fight" against Orochimaru, Itachi could just attack the head of his Gen-Jutsu stunned opponent and end it. 

But the longer the fight goes, i think Itachi can get in a world of trouble very quickly due to his poor stamina. He would have to use Susanoo to defend himself at some point, but that is restricted here of course and here lies 3 Tomoe Itachis weakness in my opinion.


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## Turrin (Feb 21, 2016)

VolatileSoul said:


> Rasa doesn't get any advantage from simply being in Suna. Being elected for his ability to subdue Shukaku seems more plausible than that. But that's besides the overall point..


I would think there is a higher deposit of Gold/magnetic material in the desert than in any other area, which is why he could pull the Gold Dust Tsunami out at the drop of a hat in the desert.



> Protecting the village is well and all, but this is Itachi vs those respective Kage, not him versus their village. I don't think their ability to protect the village is any more relevant than their ability to run it in this specific thread, which is entirely about whether or not Itachi can fight on their level.
> 
> If you want to use 3 tomoe Itachi being able to protect his village as a measure of whether or not he's Kage level, then I'd understand


I'm saying both, A) 3T Itachi likely can't protect a village, because B) his abilities are inferior to even the weakest Kages on their home turf, I.E. Gaara, Rasa, and Mei's abilities on their home turf > 3T Itachi's.

Itachi being able to beat these Kages outside their home turf therefore does not mean he is Kage level. I also don't think Itachi being able to beat or fight evenly w/ a Kage in general, even ones that aren't elemental fighters makes him Kage level. Like for example, he could put up a decent fight and possibly even beat Old-Hiruzen under the right conditions, but Old-Hiruzen can vastly out perform him when it comes to protecting the village, as Hiruzen has a super OP self-sacrifcing technique like Shiki Fuujin that he's will to pull out right away to save the village.


----------



## Sadgoob (Feb 21, 2016)

Hokage was defined early in the manga as having to do with strength. Itachi without the Mangekyō is much stronger than both Old Hiruzen and his successor Tsunade. So he's Kage level. 

He lacks shown top tier killing power without the Mangekyō, but that problem is solved if he un-attaches the Totsuka Blade from his Susano'o, or uses chakra punches that he's capable of. 

Regardless, he already easily beat Kage levels like Orochimaru and Deidara with non-Mangekyō  genjutsu, and was hyped by Shikaku and Ao as being able to control huge numbers with genjutsu. BAMF.​


----------



## Turrin (Feb 21, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Hokage was defined early in the manga as having to do with strength. Itachi without the Mangekyō is much stronger than both Old Hiruzen and his successor Tsunade. So he's Kage level.
> 
> Besides that, there are very few Kage he can't beat, and the list gets smaller if you give him his Shinden punch feats that give him some finishing power that he never needed to use in the manga.
> 
> ...


So basically your fanfiction version of Itachi


----------



## Sadgoob (Feb 21, 2016)

Turrin said:


> So basically your fanfiction version of Itachi



Giving Itachi the Totsuka without Susano'o is canon. He found it, _then_ put it in Susano'o. And his Shinden isn't fanfiction, as it's in the official Shonen Jump Timeline for the Naruto manga.

Regardless, I'd love for you to explain how Old Hiruzen or Rusty Tsunade aren't blitzed when Old Hiruzen was blitzed by Orochimaru and Tsunade was unable to hit part one Kabuto for ages.​


----------



## Turrin (Feb 21, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> The Shinden isn't fanfiction, as it's in the official Shonen Jump Timeline for the Naruto manga. .​


You might as well give people there feats from the movies or Anime.



> And giving Itachi the Totsuka without Susano'o isn't fanfiction either. He found it, then put it in Susano'o


Find me one source saying he did that isn't your Doujinishi.



> Regardless, I'd love for you to explain how Old Hiruzen or Rusty Tsunade aren't blitzed when Old Hiruzen was blitzed by Orochimaru and Tsunade was unable to hit part one Kabuto


Old Hiruzen out match Orochimaru in a CQC struggle later in that fight 

Rusty Tsunade isn't Kage level.

But I could also explain to you what power-scaling is if you want.


----------



## Sadgoob (Feb 21, 2016)

Turrin said:


> You might as well give people there feats from the movies or Anime.



Are filler anime arcs included in the official Shonen Jump Timeline?



Turrin said:


> Find me one source saying he did that isn't your Doujinishi.



Zetsu (Kaguya's ancient will) thought Itachi found the ancient item. Orochimaru thought that too. Itachi also mentioned it to Nagato as the legendary item that everybody knew about. So all things point to Itachi finding the the legendary item, then attaching it to Susano'o. But believe what you want.



Turrin said:


> Old Hiruzen out match Orochimaru in a CQC struggle later in that fight.



Orochimaru stated he was toying with Hiruzen. But that should have been obvious to you when he blitzed Hiruzen with a kunai, then chose to stab himself, and let Hiruzen go while laughing himself to tears. So Hiruzen "bested" him when Orochimaru was giving him a small fraction of sincere effort.



Turrin said:


> Rusty Tsunade isn't Kage level.



She was chased down to become Kage. So yeah, she was.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

Strategos, that is the worst generic avatar and it makes you look like a 12 year old who just watched episode 82.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 22, 2016)

Yes, 3T Itachi is a kage-level shinobi without a doubt.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Itachi lacks fire power, a colossal amount of it, he's never been a heavy hitter without his MS. However, he's easily more than capable of taking defending his village if kages were to attack or leading an attack to other villages if the occasion called for it. The only one I can see him losing against is maybe the Raikage but that's about it. He can more or less defeat the others with varying degrees of difficulty.
> 
> He has an overwhelming advantage in terms of genjutsu against any of the Gokage during the War Arc. People underestimate genjutsu since it lacks fire-power but he's easily just as dangerous with that as any of the others are with ninjutsu. It may lack the flare of a FRS or Kirin but it still gets the job done.
> 
> So to answer the question, yes Itachi is kage level without the MS, as long as we agree that raw offensive power isn't the only attribute we are looking it.



A village attack is a team setting, where his bodyguards or shinobi can make up for his weaknesses.  3 T Itachi is just a snare.  An evasive snare that's very hard to kill.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 22, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Lmao why are you assuming everyone will be able to have their summon help them even if they have a summon? Itachi still has 3 tomoe, top tier Juts execution, and much faster than movement speed than most people on Kage level.
> 
> Oro wouldn't have lived. The whole encounter showed absolute dominance on Itachi's end. It was even highlighted that while Sasuke needed Oro weakened, Itachi 2 paneled him in prime condition. Itachi checkmated him with 3 tomoe and a kunai. That's just how efficient he is with his base arsenal.
> 
> ...



lmao Hiruzen summons Enma in every fight.  lmao Even in flashbacks he's pictured running around with Enma staff. lmao

lmao Orochimaru lived.  lmao He was later defeated with MS jutsu.  lmao that's my point.  lol This is consistent with Itachi being a great snare with low ability to finish off people in the kage tier, because the kage tier tends to be hard to kill.

I don't where you got LETHAL from that exchange.  The exchange was to show that Oro can't take Itachi's body.  In that exchange, he couldn't take Itachi's body.  There was no lethal techniques.  Orochimaru wasn't worried for his life.  Itachi wasn't going to and couldn't kill him.  

A) You based this on "I didn't see him heal so he can't."  Obviously he got out of the genjutsu and healed, and if you applied that reasoning broadly, you'd also arrive at the conclusion that, "Itachi didn't kill Orochimaru there so he couldn't."  
B) lmao

Now did everyone see how stupid laughing and saying lmao makes you sound?

Hopefully this was painful enough for everyone to stop using that when addressing posts they disagree with.




> Pretty cut and dry when you just read it objectively and give Itachi his due.



Reading your impressions always makes me feel like you just choose whatever interpretation pops into your head first, and run with it.  Justification seems to come later, and seldom second guessed.  Yet you often talk about how objective and objectively right you are, and how close to reality you are in discussions, and yet even when you change your evidence you never really seem to change your conclusion because, "You still think," or, "Still feel like," whatever the case may be in a number of topics.  So I find it really odd that you say things like this.  Especially when years ago I asked you how you arrive at these conclusions you tell me are the truth I should accept, and you told me that you, "Just look at what's on the page, and fill in the blanks with what you think makes sense."  This included things like your denial of the existence of doton sense, with long explanations of spacial awareness and links to psychology articles in it's place.  I understand you have complete confidence in your own beliefs, but how and why should I trust you to tell me what's true when you're equally certain when correct or incorrect?


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 22, 2016)

Bee is one of the most durable people you will ever come across as far as high tier threats go. He's far from the representative example for average ninja a Kage would have to face.

Itachi was threatening him with some fire flow, and shuriken. the same dude who could lol block sword swings from Suigetsu, eat Juugo punches to the face for breakfast, and decimate an MS Raiton user in CqC.

Itachi's very well rounded and brings genjutsu as his trump. You don't need something like FRS or Chidori when you can Bind someone with a glance, have their deepest most inner fears mindfuck them, or completely deceive their perception of the surroundings. Wind Naruto would get bodied by Itachi. Fire Flow, Suiton Jet, and Kenjutsu are enough in combination. It's like people forget that Uchiha are also flee on sight in regards to 1v1.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> lmao Hiruzen summons Enma in every fight.  lmao Even in flashbacks he's pictured running around with Enma staff. lmao


And so I ask you again. What makes you think there summon will be able to help them before Itachi fucks them over? The summon will have to react to the genjutsu and attempt to Kai physically (which kinda requires him not to be in staff form).

Itachi kinda has speed to nigh blitz Bee with distraction, and cast seals/jutsu faster than 3 tomoe can keep up with. Naruto was like inches from Sakura and Chiyo two people with knowledge and great Kai and *was stuck throwing odd Rasengan's and choking on his own spit for how long?
*


> lmao Orochimaru lived.


Because Itachi let him? He was < 12 inches from his face with a kunai in his hand, and Oro sitting there like a beat up 12 year old getting bullied by his older brother. One Ama, or Susanoo swing and GG Oro. Let alone had Itachi chosen to idk, behead him instead of taking off his arm.



> lmao He was later defeated with MS jutsu.  lmao that's my point.  lol This is consistent with Itachi being a great snare with low ability to finish off people in the kage tier, because the kage tier tends to be hard to kill.


You second point is overly disingenuous. Oro was not fighting Itachi in a fair we both start in base at 100% fight. *He fucking popped out of Sasuke in his strongest form, while Itachi was already in Susanoo*, and then promptly got like 5 paneled.

Guess what fight had them both start at 100% and in base? the scene absolutely displayed Itachi's dominance, *and ability to beat Kage level fighters given certain curcumstances.*



> I don't where you got LETHAL from that exchange.  The exchange was to show that Oro can't take Itachi's body.  In that exchange, he couldn't take Itachi's body.  There was no lethal techniques.  Orochimaru wasn't worried for his life.  Itachi wasn't going to and couldn't kill him.


1.) Idk Oro getting his hand chopped off when he could have easily lost his  head?
2.) Why can't he take Itachi's body? *Because he's weaker.* That's the reason he quit Akatsuki. That's the reason he didn't just lol from the hand swipe like he did vs KN4. That's the reason he kept the hand as a solemn symbol of better days, and that's why he scoffed at Kabuto for suggesting Oro could ever obtain him, and linguistically jerked him off for a page.



> A) You based this on "I didn't see him heal so he can't."  Obviously he got out of the genjutsu and healed, and if you applied that reasoning broadly, you'd also arrive at the conclusion that, "Itachi didn't kill Orochimaru there so he couldn't."


No I based this on the following:
- Oro didn't heal like he did many times before. Oro was in an active fight with another Akatsuki member who had the eyes that could make all of his dreams come true. Yet he chooses not to and instead flees? The same man who fought KN4 with no arms  seems a bit conclusive about his motives for fleeing 
- His chakra was kinda being controlled by Itachi which we have seen multiple times negates sealless jutsu like Susanoo, and cloaked modes, don't see why Oro's jutsu based regen is any different.



> B) lmao
> 
> Now did everyone see how stupid laughing and saying lmao makes you sound?


lmao



> Hopefully this was painful enough for everyone to stop using that when addressing posts they disagree with.


It's a habit, and I don't find you snark an overly better alternative however well thought out it may be sometimes.





> Reading your impressions always makes me feel like you just choose whatever interpretation pops into your head first, and run with it.  Justification seems to come later, and seldom second guessed.


Not at all. I change my points whenever someone proves me wrong here, or offers a reasonable alternative. I'm fairly objective when it comes to Itachi. 

There is just a blatant Uchiha bias present, and an lol worthy hypocrisy on the forum where in Uchiha fans get seen as weak/ bias debaters for trying to make points about Itachi (which most of the time thanks to his portrayal in the manga has very good backing), yet Tsunade fans can walk around here saying Tsunade can ground and pound the Kyuubi, and lol regenerate being beheaded with no proof, Minato fans can say anything they want and have it be somewhat respected within reason, and the same for any overly popular character. 



> Yet you often talk about how objective and objectively right you are, and how close to reality you are in discussions, and yet even when you change your evidence you never really seem to change your conclusion because,


I implore you to give mesome examples, because I'm pretty sure you using your own subjective impression of my posting as the crux of this argument.



> "You still think," or, "Still feel like," whatever the case may be in a number of topics.





I never say this shit, and quite the opposite. Unless it's a point that I am still actively arguing and have decided to stop because of getting no where in the discussion I never say shit like this 




> So I find it really odd that you say things like this.  Especially when years ago I asked you how you arrive at these conclusions you tell me are the truth I should accept, and you told me that you, "Just look at what's on the page, and fill in the blanks with what you think makes sense."  This included things like your denial of the existence of doton sense, with long explanations of spacial awareness and links to psychology articles in it's place.  I understand you have complete confidence in your own beliefs, but how and why should I trust you to tell me what's true when you're equally certain when correct or incorrect?


As soon as a databook was linked I gave up my stance and straight up starting harking about it, and using it in my strats...

I concede to people like flamingrain when I am proven wrong with correct reliable sources of info...

Bringing up really old stuff like I'm some non transient growing human, is kinda moot as well Imo.  Seems to me like you like to pick and choose things I do, and then portray mostly the bad without even looking to care if your opinion of me is even right.

Just because I am firm in my beliefs based on what I believe to be solid arguments doesn't mean I'm some elitist who doesn't hear out any other opinions, or know how to objectively debate. This argument seems to boil down to " I feel you act conceded or overly confident sometimes in your posting style and therefore will judge your whole style on said post" which is not only really generalizing, but hypocritical given the multiple times I see you snark someone for their opinions in your own way.

So I'd appreciate, unless you have a case built outlining these claims, that yo stop treating me as such. Thanks.


----------



## Sadgoob (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Strategos, that is the worst generic avatar and it makes you look like a 12 year old who just watched episode 82.



Come at me bro.


----------



## Sadgoob (Feb 22, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Bee is one of the most durable people you will ever come across as far as high tier threats go. He's far from the representative example for average ninja a Kage would have to face.



When you think about how powerful a counter Bee is to base Itachi: 


top tier genjutsu defense (Gyuki) to counter Itachi's illusions
top tier reflexes (against Minato) to counter Itachi's speed and feints.
top tier weapons skills (against Sasuke) to counter Itachi weapon speed
ninjutsu absorption (Samehada) for Itachi's fast ninjutsu executions
And then remember how much help Bee had _*in only a few pages*_:


Samehada injured itself absorbing a blast of ninjutsu for him
Nagato warned Bee Itachi was above him
Naruto intercepted Itachi above Bee
Itachi warned Bee that he was behind him
Gyuki broke him out of genjutsu
Samehada helped Bee counter Itachi's shuriken (set up eight blades)
Gyuki helped Bee counter Itachi's shuriken (partial transformation)
That's *a lot* of help and reliance for it only taking up about *half a chapter*. And Itachi still landed shuriken and flames on Bee, making him yelp out that it hurt. On the other hand, Itachi himself remained completely unharmed, even when Bee tried attacking Itachi's backside while Itachi was grappling Naruto. Base Bee was given a *lot* of assistance against Itachi, and Base Bee is a _*much*_ better counter for Itachi's strengths than almost all Kage levels, even the high tiers.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> When you think about how powerful a counter Bee is to base Itachi:
> 
> 
> top tier genjutsu defense (Gyuki) to counter Itachi's illusions
> ...




I have to agree with this.
B is a solid counter for base Itachi nearly at all fronts.
No other shinobi in that ballpark(kage levels without their trumps) can perform nearly as good as him.


----------



## Turrin (Feb 25, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Are filler anime arcs included in the official Shonen Jump Timeline?


And I care why exactly? Shonen Jump releasing a time-line to sell novels is meaningless to me. What matters is the level of involvement Kishimoto had in the novels production and how much Kishimoto okay'd. And from everything I know about the novels Kishimoto only provided some illustrations. However if you can provide proof that Kishimoto had a major advisory role in overseeing the novels, like he's going to have w/ the Boruto series and Boruto the movie, i'll gladly take the novels into consideration. Though if that's the case I can't wait to see the Sannin novel released giving Jiraiya awesome feats, and the amazing 180 backpeddling job you do on how cannon the novels are.



> Zetsu (Kaguya's ancient will) thought Itachi found the ancient item. Orochimaru thought that too. Itachi also mentioned it to Nagato as the legendary item that everybody knew about. So all things point to Itachi finding the the legendary item, then attaching it to Susano'o. But believe what you want.


1) Zetsu never said that, so that is fanfiction
2) Zetsu even calls it a Jutsu "--I SEE... NO MATTER HOW YOU SEARCHED, YOU COULD NEVER FIND IT...-- / --A PURELY SPIRITUAL BLADE, WITH NO PHYSICAL FORM...-- // Wh... what is that sword...? // --THE TOTSUKA BLADE, ALSO KNOWN AS THE SAKEGARI-NO-TACHI, IS A SWORD OF SEALING...-- // --IT IS SAID THAT THOSE WHO ARE PIERCED BY ITS EDGE WILL BE TRAPPED IN AN INTOXICATING GENJUTSU PLANE FOR ALL ETERNITY...-- / --THE BLADE ITSELF CONTAINS A SEALING JUTSU; IT IS THE KUSANAGI BLADE'S NATURAL ENEMY--

17
Zetsu: --OROCHIMARU SEARCHED FOR THAT BLADE ALL HIS LIFE-- // His eye abilities... and *a jutsu of this level*, too... Itachi really is incredible!""

3) Orochimaru didn't know much about the sword, so taking his quest to find it seriously is Bullshit on your par

4) Totosuka was a legendary sword, but it was one of Susano'o's weapons that became legendary not a blade equipped to Susano'o. Any more than the other treasure Yata was equipped to Madara's or Sasuke's Susano'o

5) Even if it was a blade Itachi found, Itachi being able to wield it w/o Susano'o is absolutely made up on your part w/ no evidence whatsoever.



> Orochimaru stated he was toying with Hiruzen. But that should have been obvious to you when he blitzed Hiruzen with a kunai, then chose to stab himself, and let Hiruzen go while laughing himself to tears. So Hiruzen "bested" him when Orochimaru was giving him a small fraction of sincere effort.


Orochimaru was dead serious after watching the Edo Hokages get sealed, yet he got bested by Hiruzen in CQC, so cut the BS 



> She was chased down to become Kage. So yeah, she was.


The Elders didn't know she was Rusty or Blood phobic, they were basing her being qualified off of her previous fame as a Legendary Sannin and being unmatched on the battlefield due to her combat and medical prowess. 

---

And once again you ignoring power-scaling is intellectually dishonest.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 25, 2016)

That doens't nprove your argument. Hirashin is a jutsu completely indpenedant of the special kunai and shiki seals that comprise it. 

how would Oro/Zetsu know about these ancient weapons if they were specific to one Susanoo in history? Not that many uchihas even awaken MS in the first place, and the only known suanno users were Madara and Hagaromo son.


----------



## Turrin (Feb 25, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> That doens't nprove your argument. Hirashin is a jutsu completely indpenedant of the special kunai and shiki seals that comprise it.
> 
> how would Oro/Zetsu know about these ancient weapons if they were specific to one Susanoo in history? Not that many uchihas even awaken MS in the first place, and the only known suanno users were Madara and Hagaromo son.



Prove its specific to one susanoo


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## Dr. White (Feb 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Prove its specific to one susanoo



It's called Itachi's in the databook.

No other Susanno has the gourd sword or patent Yata Mirror. Even Sasuke never showed it, just the same old Arrow shield. 

Burden of proof is on you to prove any other Susanoo has the specific Ancient weapons, which are a sole entity.

Only Itachi has totsuka and Yata.


----------



## Sadgoob (Feb 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> And I care why exactly? Shonen Jump releasing a time-line to sell novels is meaningless to me. What matters is the level of involvement Kishimoto had in the novels production and how much Kishimoto okay'd.



You seriously think Shonen Jump wouldn't cross-check with Kishi. _Sure_, Turrin.



Turrin said:


> 1) Zetsu never said that, so that is fanfiction
> 2) Zetsu even calls it a Jutsu "--I SEE... NO MATTER HOW YOU SEARCHED, YOU COULD NEVER FIND IT...-- / --A PURELY SPIRITUAL BLADE, WITH NO PHYSICAL FORM...-- // Wh... what is that sword...? // --THE TOTSUKA BLADE, ALSO KNOWN AS THE SAKEGARI-NO-TACHI, IS A SWORD OF SEALING...-- // --IT IS SAID THAT THOSE WHO ARE PIERCED BY ITS EDGE WILL BE TRAPPED IN AN INTOXICATING GENJUTSU PLANE FOR ALL ETERNITY...-- / --*THE BLADE ITSELF CONTAINS A SEALING JUTSU*; IT IS THE KUSANAGI BLADE'S NATURAL ENEMY--



No, it's basic English. It's a blade. The blade *contains* a sealing jutsu. 



Turrin said:


> Zetsu: --OROCHIMARU SEARCHED FOR THAT BLADE ALL HIS LIFE-- // His eye abilities... and *a jutsu of this level*, too... Itachi really is incredible!""



Referring to the jutsu the blade *contains*, yeah. Talk about dishonesty, Turrin.



Turrin said:


> 3) Orochimaru didn't know much about the sword, so taking his quest to find it seriously is Bullshit on your part



You don't know what Orochimaru knew. You're the one full of shit. I'm going to go out on a limb and say if Orochimaru, an incredible scholar, was searching far and wide for it for all his life then he knew a great deal about it.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 25, 2016)

Did they ever elaborate on where Itachi found the Totsuka?


----------



## Rai (Feb 25, 2016)

The same place that Sasuke found his Susano'o weapons.


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## Saru (Feb 25, 2016)

I don't get what's so mind-blowing about Itachi searching for and finding Totsuka before using it with his Susano'o. Orochimaru was searching for it for all of his life, and it was legendary. Ergo, Totsuka Blade existed long, _long_ before Itachi used it in tandem with his Susano'o. Orochimaru was looking for it too, and Black Zetsu knew about it, so there's no reason to believe that Totsuka is something that came with Itachi's Susano'o. Sasuke's Susano'o is not special--Obito would have commented on Sasuke's Susano'o if there was something special about it--nor is Madara's. 

... That doesn't leave us with a whole lotta options here in terms of people who used Totsuka with Susano'o previously.

As for whether or not Itachi can still use Totsuka without Susano'o, I don't see why not. At the same time, I don't like the idea of Itachi using a sword in a manner that he never used it on panel, so I'd say that it's OOC for him to do so.​


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2016)

Somehow, I agree with Strategoob.

 Orochimaru doesn't spend his entire life looking for weapons, he merely wanted to obtain immortality and the Sharingan to master every jutsu in existence and so it makes sense that he was attempting to obtain the jutsu the Totsuka blade contains rather than the blade itself.

 It also aligns perfectly with Itachi's thirst for knowledge as Hiruzen has emphasized before, so it makes more sense that the Totsuka blade is exclusive to Itachi, but the jutsu it contains is not.


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## Turrin (Feb 25, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> It's called Itachi's in the databook.
> 
> No other Susanno has the gourd sword or patent Yata Mirror. Even Sasuke never showed it, just the same old Arrow shield.
> 
> ...


It's called Itachi's in the DB because Itachi was the only known Susano'o user at that point.

Prove that we've seen every Susano'o that has ever existed. 

The burden of proof is absolutely on you, because your the one making the claim that Totsuka and Yata are exclusive to Itachi. All i'm saying is I don't see any evidence that confirms this.


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## Itachі (Feb 25, 2016)

I don't think there's enough evidence to make a decision on either side tbh.


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## Turrin (Feb 25, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> You seriously think Shonen Jump wouldn't cross-check with Kishi. _Sure_, Turrin.


So basically you have no evidence that Kishimoto had any deeper involvement in the novels beyond providing illustrations, let alone him approving of character ability additions, like Itachi having Okasho.

K moving on...



> No, it's basic English. It's a blade. The blade contains a sealing jutsu.




Great you proved that Totsuka is a blade, something no one ever doubted, now prove it's not part of Itachi's Susano'o the same way Sasuke's Susano'o blade was part of his Susano'o or his arrow or Madara's Susano'o blades. And so on.



> Referring to the jutsu the blade contains, yeah. Talk about dishonesty, Turrin.


He's referring to Susano'o in general 



> You don't know what Orochimaru knew. You're the one full of shit. I'm going to go out on a limb and say if Orochimaru, an incredible scholar, was searching far and wide for it for all his life then he knew a great deal about it.


Yet had no recognition of it whatsoever when itachi pulled it out.  Please spare me your bullshit.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> It's called Itachi's in the DB because Itachi was the only known Susano'o user at that point.
> 
> Prove that we've seen every Susano'o that has ever existed.
> 
> The burden of proof is absolutely on you, because your the one making the claim that Totsuka and Yata are exclusive to Itachi. All i'm saying is I don't see any evidence that confirms this.


We don't need to know every other Susanoo user because they don't explicitly exist.* From what we do know* Itachi is the only user. Plain and simple.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Feb 26, 2016)

Let it go Dr. White, Turrin's going to turr 


Saru said:


> I don't get what's so mind-blowing about Itachi searching for and finding Totsuka before using it with his Susano'o. Orochimaru was searching for it for all of his life, and it was legendary. Ergo, Totsuka Blade existed long, _long_ before Itachi used it in tandem with his Susano'o. Orochimaru was looking for it too, and Black Zetsu knew about it, so there's no reason to believe that Totsuka is something that came with Itachi's Susano'o. Sasuke's Susano'o is not special--Obito would have commented on Sasuke's Susano'o if there was something special about it--nor is Madara's.
> 
> ... That doesn't leave us with a whole lotta options here in terms of people who used Totsuka with Susano'o previously.
> 
> As for whether or not Itachi can still use Totsuka without Susano'o, I don't see why not. At the same time, I don't like the idea of Itachi using a sword in a manner that he never used it on panel, so I'd say that it's OOC for him to do so.​


Plus, I'm surprised this made it this far, although, I thought Saru did an eloquent job indenting and crushing the discussion. 

[/THREAD]


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## Dr. White (Feb 26, 2016)

Interviewer: That would be interesting to read! With Naruto, you've created a very rich universe with many characters, and you just did a Seventh Hokage and the Scarlet Spring side story, the Boruto movie, which you wrote the screenplay for, and there's also the* Kakashi Hiden side-story novel that Viz Media is also publishing*. That's a lot to enjoy, but are these sequel stories the last of your Naruto stories, or do you think there's more stories left to tell? Or after 15 years, are you just DONE with Naruto? (laughs)

Kishi: There are infinite possibilities right now. If I decide that I want to do more Naruto stories, perhaps I will, perhaps I won't. That said, there is nothing firmly in the works at this time. Just that there is always the possibility…

Christopher Butcher: 
Oh, that's so cool that you had that finished at the very beginning and you were able to put it in at the very end too. That's very, very cool.* I know you've been working on some of the stuff* like The Seventh Hokage and the Scarlet Spring (now available in digital format from VIZManga.com) *You've been working on a lot of stuff, the Boruto movie, the new manga, the side stories, the novels.*

It seems like now you might be winding down a little bit and talking a bit better care of yourself? Is that true, or is your workflow still like it was when you were drawing the chapters for Weekly Shonen Jump?

Masashi Kishimoto: 
I would say that life got a little bit easier when I finished drawing the series. On the other hand, it might not be obvious to the fans who don't know the timeline, but as I was drawing the last chapter of Naruto, I was told that I would be working on the screenplay for the new movie, Boruto. It was the first time I actually managed to work on an entire screenplay by myself. But on the other hand, that came right after the series. So it's only very recently that I was truly able to start relaxing just a teeny bit and spending more time with my children.


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## Dr. White (Feb 26, 2016)

Interviewer: That would be interesting to read! With Naruto, you've created a very rich universe with many characters, and you just did a Seventh Hokage and the Scarlet Spring side story, the Boruto movie, which you wrote the screenplay for, and there's also the* Kakashi Hiden side-story novel that Viz Media is also publishing*. That's a lot to enjoy, but are these sequel stories the last of your Naruto stories, or do you think there's more stories left to tell? Or after 15 years, are you just DONE with Naruto? (laughs)

Kishi: There are infinite possibilities right now. If I decide that I want to do more Naruto stories, perhaps I will, perhaps I won't. That said, there is nothing firmly in the works at this time. Just that there is always the possibility?

Christopher Butcher: 
Oh, that's so cool that you had that finished at the very beginning and you were able to put it in at the very end too. That's very, very cool.* I know you've been working on some of the stuff* like The Seventh Hokage and the Scarlet Spring (now available in digital format from VIZManga.com) *You've been working on a lot of stuff, the Boruto movie, the new manga, the side stories, the novels.*

It seems like now you might be winding down a little bit and talking a bit better care of yourself? Is that true, or is your workflow still like it was when you were drawing the chapters for Weekly Shonen Jump?

Masashi Kishimoto: 
I would say that life got a little bit easier when I finished drawing the series. On the other hand, it might not be obvious to the fans who don't know the timeline, but as I was drawing the last chapter of Naruto, I was told that I would be working on the screenplay for the new movie, Boruto. It was the first time I actually managed to work on an entire screenplay by myself. But on the other hand, that came right after the series. So it's only very recently that I was truly able to start relaxing just a teeny bit and spending more time with my children.


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## Rai (Feb 26, 2016)

Illustration.


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## Dr. White (Feb 26, 2016)

Kishi obviously recongizes them as official to his brand is my point. Same group that made Boruto/Last made the novels, along with the last databook.


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## Rai (Feb 26, 2016)

Novels are official works but they're non-canon until he says otherwise.


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## Turrin (Feb 26, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> We don't need to know every other Susanoo user because they don't explicitly exist.* From what we do know* Itachi is the only user. Plain and simple.


Cool, and that doesn't prove Itachi was thee only user, just the only user we've seen. Hence the point stands that another Susano'o user could have had Totsuka and Yata Mirror. We literally saw the same thing w/ Obito pulling out Rikudo's legendary Sword by creating it from the black element.



Dr. White said:


> Kishi obviously recongizes them as official to his brand is my point. Same group that made Boruto/Last made the novels, along with the last databook.


Kishimoto recognizes the games as an official part of his brand in the same exact way, despite him again only providing the illustrations. If Kishimoto had such a heavy hand in the novels to the point where he was really reviewing specific feats, you would be able to find me an interview citing Kishimoto's involvement in the plot, just like in every other instance that Kishimoto has been involved in other Naruto project's plot, it has been heavily advertised as such to get fan's excited. Just like the Boruto Movie and Boruto Manga. And considering the fact that it's only Itachi-fanboys arguing this shit is canon, I automatically don't take the claims seriously. Not to mention even if it was Canon, no one has actually posted a good translation of when Itachi demonstrates these feats in the novels, all i've seen is second hand strategoob hype, which is likely blown out of proportion and not really what occurred in the novel.

Give me the quote of Kishimoto being involved in the story of the novels and give me a verbatim translation of when the feat occurred in the novel, than you guys would actually have a compelling argument. 

PS- I take less offense to Stragoob claiming that Itachi having Okasho-lite blows, than his BS about Itachi being able to use Totsuka Sword w/o MS & Susano'o anyway.


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