# Beserker vs Ryougi Shiki and Tohno Shiki



## Xaosin (Sep 1, 2010)

Beserker fighting solo with Godhand activated.

Vs

Ryougi Shiki and Tohno Shiki.

Can the two overcome him?

Scenario 1: Speed is equalized.
Scenario 2: Speed tis not be equalized.

Google search couldn't find this done anywhere.

They fight in a parking lot, typical OBD constants.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Sep 1, 2010)

Without speed equalised, they get blitzed to hell. Equalised on the other hand...


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## Xaosin (Sep 1, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Without speed equalised, they get blitzed to hell. Equalised on the other hand...



I'll make it 2 different scenarios.


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## willyvereb (Sep 1, 2010)

Speed equalized or not Tohno Shiki fries his brain in an attempt to understand a Servant's existence.
The only one who has a chance is Ryougi but only to a mutual defeat. Once she cuts the lines of Berserker, she sets all the prana inside the Servant's body to explode. Let's see:
-about a hundred prana or less is enough to blow up an entire detached house.(A class spell)
-Servants are made out of thousands of prana.

gg Shikis.


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## Tranquil Fury (Sep 1, 2010)

No speed equal or not he's Hercules, he's huge and his swipes can create shockwaves, his hands can still move quite fast regardless. Word of God has even confirmed that R. Shiki could at best put up a defensive fight against an average servant before losing, Berserker was the second strongest overall in the War and the strongest servant statwise. His 6th sense/Eye of the mind fake lets him react to Archer's Broken Phantasm. Tohno Shiki can't kill servants and even R. Shiki will struggle against older mysteries to kill them, Hercules is 1000s of years old even older than Araya.



> about a hundred prana or less is enough to blow up an entire detached house.(A class spell)
> -Servants are made out of thousands of prana



Where was the first stated and the second was made up numbers not to be taken seriously on Fuyuki.


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## willyvereb (Sep 1, 2010)

Where?Hm, I have to do some research. I used to calc it from Rin's gems compared to the heirloom jewel or something like that. I recalculate it some time later.

Also Saber in her weakened form had 1000 prana. 
1000 prana = Rin's absolute maximum capacity.
You can guess even if an A class spell isn't just 100 prana that it can't be more than 1000.
And we're talking about Hercules here with a good master(prana-wise). That explosion is gonna hurt...a lot.


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## Tranquil Fury (Sep 1, 2010)

None of this official and if you're using UBW for that note that Rin was giving prana to Saber and Shirou who incidently had to use some of his circuits as well in addition to Rin's. Saber's prana output was never given officially. Saber should have some of the highest prana period, Hercules does not have to be in the same league or higher for prana, his capacity is different than hers just like Shirou's capacity is different from Rin. His default master is Illya and she does'nt give him all her prana.

Think of the Servant as a bucket and the Master as a tap, even if the Master has more than what the servant can hold it won't matter since the servant can only hold a fixed amount. A servant who needs only 150 will not benefit from someone who has 4,000 since only 150 will be the limit. Archer under Rin has B rank prana while Saber under Rin has A rank.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Sep 1, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> No speed equal or not he's Hercules, he's huge and his swipes can create shockwaves, his hands can still move quite fast regardless. Word of God has even confirmed that R. Shiki could at best put up a defensive fight against an average servant before losing, Berserker was the second strongest overall in the War and the strongest servant statwise. His 6th sense/Eye of the mind fake lets him react to Archer's Broken Phantasm. Tohno Shiki can't kill servants and even R. Shiki will struggle against older mysteries to kill them, Hercules is 1000s of years old even older than Araya.



Base Ryougi will struggle under normal circumstances while 3rd Personality is debatable. Tohno on the other hand, depends. Regular Tsukihime Shiki can at best deal with a Demon Hybrid like Akiha head on since he made use of his environment. Kagetsu Tohya Shiki can't even deal with Kishima Kouma who went toe to toe with Nanaya Kiri who held his own with a drumstick of all things (I personally have to see it to believe it. )

Melty Blood Shiki on the other hand doesn't really have that extreme drawback with his eyes as badly. He seemingly can keep up with Ciel better but admittingly still says she's still stronger IIRC. Not to mention fighting Dead Apostles head on.


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## willyvereb (Sep 1, 2010)

@Taranquil Fury:You are just dismissing canonical statements from the original VN.
-First, every magic-knowing human character describes the servants as unbelivably large concentration of magic(Yeah, even Archer). Since it includes Rin(who has between 200-500 amounts of prana as a routine) it tells something.
-Second, Saber states her amount of prana reserves in Fate scenario(circa 1000) just after she fought Berserker for the first time.
-Berserker has the same A class magic attribute as full powered Saber(under Rin's command). And yes, he has a regular circulation of prana. She doesn't use Berserker's mad enchantment but it doesn't mean she refuses to give him prana.

To be short you assume things and disprove others without a reason.


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## Tranquil Fury (Sep 1, 2010)

no you're the one who said Saber under Rin has 1000 units of prana, Shirou is Saber's weakest master and Archer meant she could match Berserker under Rin because she could use her full potential for Prana burst along with her prime stats. The exact number of prana was never stated for Saber under Rin. You're the one assuming that all servants have the same prana level under the same master. Rin was giving prana to both Shirou and Saber, she would'nt be just 1000 either. 

You're the one who made up some theory of all servants being 1000s, using Saber no less who is far from average to begin with, her prana burst is based on her immense prana pool which she uses to fight physically powerful foes like Lancer and Beserker. Same stat=/= same amount, there is no proof for this. Berserker overall has better stats than even Rin Saber on base vs base.

Strength:  A+  
Agility:  A  
Mana:  A  
Luck:  B  
Endurance: A

Rin Saber:
Strength: A  
Agility: B  
Mana: A  
Luck: A+  
Endurance: B

It's the prana burst that makes the difference. 

Servants have a powerful concentration but not all would be in the 1000s. There is nothing to say Saber's level=Berserker's prana output.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Sep 1, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> no you're the one who said Saber under Rin has 1000 units of prana, Shirou is Saber's weakest master and Archer meant she could match Berserker under Rin because she could use her full potential for Prana burst along with her prime stats. The exact number of prana was never stated for Saber under Rin. You're the one assuming that all servants have the same prana level under the same master.
> 
> You are aware that word of god has confirmed that even if Archer could use Excalibur he lacks the power to bring out it's full destructive capacity like Saber. You're the one who made up some theory of all servants being 1000s, using Saber no less who is far from average to begin with. Same stat=/= same amount, there is no proof for this.



Actually, it would be more like Archer will vanish the minute he even attempts to use it since he lacks the prana to do it and maintain himself at the same time. It can be done, maybe not the same ala traced Jewel Sword compared to the original in terms of power. Shiro attempts to use Excaliber to destroy the Greater Grail, dies immediately after hand.


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## willyvereb (Sep 1, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> no you're the one who said Saber under Rin has 1000 units of prana, Shirou is Saber's weakest master and Archer meant she could match Berserker under Rin because she could use her full potential for Prana burst along with her prime stats. The exact number of prana was never stated for Saber under Rin. You're the one assuming that all servants have the same prana level under the same master.
> 
> You are aware that word of god has confirmed that even if Archer could use Excalibur he lacks the power to bring out it's full destructive capacity like Saber. You're the one who made up some theory of all servants being 1000s, using Saber no less who is far from average to begin with. Same stat=/= same amount, there is no proof for this.



Read my first post in this thread again then...or every other post of mine for that matter. I've never stated that Servants have the same level. 1000+ or not the Servants have more prana than base Rin(200-500).

And since when we can't believe stats for such comparison. Stats are still stats and meant for comparison. Same level of strength mean that the two Servants have about the same attack strength. Same level of agility means neither of them could outmaneuver the other in general. Same level of magic stat means the Servants have similar amount of magic reserves. You are just desperate for some reason to nerf the Servants.

Also I have to add that Caster with A-class magic attribute could spam A class spells. Unless her reserves are much larger than what required for an A class spell I can't see why she could do that.

Anyways, house-sized explosion is more than enough to kill Ryougi so I can't see about what you are arguing here. If you doubt a Servant(especially Berserker) has prana equal to at least an A class spell then read the VN again.


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## Tranquil Fury (Sep 1, 2010)

Shirou did it out of willpower/plot while practically dead. The point is all servants don't have the same capacity and same stat=/= same amount. Assasin has an A in AGI even Hassan did if I recall does not make them as fast as Lancer or Rider who Nasu confirms are the two fastest. Even Berserker in base is not grouped with those two.

I was arguing where you got that Berserker was in the 1000s, high 100s is definate atleast. I did read your posts, you need to read mine. Same stat=/= same amount/strength. Every hero is different physically and has different magic capacity. Caster is a magus from the age of the gods so she'd be pretty uber obviously. I never argued such an explosion won't kill Shiki.


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## willyvereb (Sep 1, 2010)

Wrong, agility=/=speed. Agility is the ability to move and general mobility. Assassin beat Lancer for that matter. Perhaps by luring him to the Shadow but even then Lancer had a very hard time to deal with Assassin.

Nasu confirms them as fastest? Isn't Saber easily the fastest with casual supersonic feats and the fastest speed feat in whole FSN?

EDIT: I see, I am glad we're agreeing on that part. As the other(magic capacity) we don't have a reason to refuse that Servants with the same magic capacity indeed have similar amount of magic.


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## Xelloss (Sep 1, 2010)

willyvereb said:


> Where?Hm, I have to do some research. I used to calc it from Rin's gems compared to the heirloom jewel or something like that. I recalculate it some time later.
> 
> Also Saber in her weakened form had 1000 prana.
> 1000 prana = Rin's absolute maximum capacity.
> ...



Mystic eyes aldo destroy any secondary effect the killed object had, so no explosion but nice try, as other say Berserker would still own due to shockwaves and mind eye.



> Also I have to add that Caster with A-class magic attribute could spam A class spells. Unless her reserves are much larger than what required for an A class spell I can't see why she could do that.



Bad example as Medea with her age of the god divine words dont connect her circuits to cast at all.


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## Satehi (Sep 1, 2010)

In equalized speed, whats stopping one of the from slashing apart Berserker's weapon and the other getting a hit in?


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## willyvereb (Sep 2, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Mystic eyes aldo destroy any secondary effect the killed object had, so no explosion but nice try, as other say Berserker would still own due to shockwaves and mind eye.


First, Berserker is the most unapproachable Servant. Second they have no idea about secondary effects. 3rd Personality Shiki may do it if she knows the Servant would go boom. 



> Bad example as Medea with her age of the god divine words dont connect her circuits to cast at all.



She still needs prana and each of her magics had the prana amount of an A class spell(According to Shirou and Rin).


Also HF Shirou used Excalibur with Archer's arm on. Unlike Kotomine, he had fair amount of magic(He projected oly two times and was out of the battle). The UBW's messings(sword body) are the product of Archer's arm and prana. In short he still had some to use Excalibur. Anyways he used a ranked down version(according to trace mechanism) and it may had less prana requirement. Also we have an example in Fate where Saber uses Excalibur in an especially bad condition. She still manages to pull it off but it didn't have the same power so Berserker tanked it effortlessly. On the other hand the Great Holy Grail has no known type of defense so a weak blast could be enough.


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## Rene (Sep 2, 2010)

Berserker swings his axe sword and the both of them get their heads smashed in.

Shirou while hyped up on Archer's arm didn't even want to come close to the swings of Black Berserker, who is weaker than normal Berserker if I recall correctly.

Also, I have a feeling this is going to turn into a long debate about whether or not MEoDP can see Servant's deaths or not.


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## Xelloss (Sep 2, 2010)

willyvereb said:


> First, Berserker is the most unapproachable Servant. Second they have no idea about secondary effects. 3rd Personality Shiki may do it if she knows the Servant would go boom.




Incorrent specially with Ryogi case, she kill the source the very point of existance that give sense to berserker, also when something is killed by Mystic eyes, kinetic movements, secondary effects are destroyed also so no prana bomb of doom here.

Theres no point in argue so long berserker has mind eye and so much aoe they cant touch him.


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## Crimson King (Sep 2, 2010)

Rene said:


> Also, I have a feeling this is going to turn into a long debate about whether or not MEoDP can see Servant's deaths or not.



It always does.


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## willyvereb (Sep 2, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Incorrent specially with Ryogi case, she kill the source the very point of existance that give sense to berserker, also when something is killed by Mystic eyes, kinetic movements, secondary effects are destroyed also so no prana bomb of doom here.
> 
> Theres no point in argue so long berserker has mind eye and so much aoe they cant touch him.



It's funny that we both agree on the Shikis defeat here while we still argue about something. Anyways, Nasu himself stated that killing a servant with MEoDP would result in prana explosion since the Servant which gave form of the mass of prana suddenly disappears. The prana isn't part of the Servant since it comes from the Grail and its Master, not from him.


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