# Lich King (Arthas Menethil) vs Sauron



## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2013)

Since Witch King got stomped and Melkor obviously rapes Arthas...



vs



This seems to be the healthy medium.  I'm aware this was done back in 2009.  However, the Warcraft verse has received better feats since then.

Scenario 1:  No armies.  Single combat.

Scenario 2:  Full armies.  Northrend vs Mordor.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2013)

I'm shocked no one has an opinion on this fight.  People were very outspoken in the other two threads.


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## Geralt of Rivia (Jun 9, 2013)

It's Lich King week


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## Boomy (Jun 9, 2013)

Fire>ice


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 9, 2013)

Lich King


probably


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## trance (Jun 9, 2013)

Sauron has the One Ring right?


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2013)

Lazers said:


> Sauron has the One Ring right?



Most definitely.


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## TehChron (Jun 9, 2013)

Considering that Arthas is basically a more angsty Isildur, cant Sauron just trip, drop the One Ring, and roll it towards Arthas?

The Lich King has shown no resistance to Soulfuckery  so the second Arthas puts,on the Ring, Saurons pretty much got him in the bag, right?


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2013)

I'm guessing being the very definition of a king soul-fucker (possessing Frostmourne, being a Lich who's phylactery is the sword and the armor, and being comprised of one of the most powerful necromancers in the lore of Warcraft) would probably stop that from happening.


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## trance (Jun 9, 2013)

If it's Sauron with One Ring, he wins. Which Dark Lord is next to fight the Lich King? Voldemorte? Sidious?


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2013)

Lazers said:


> If it's Sauron with One Ring, he wins. Which Dark Lord is next to fight the Lich King? Voldemorte? Sidious?



How exactly does he win even with the One Ring?  He was defeated by a Wolfhound during the Silmarillion before he crafted the ring.  After he crafted the ring, Isildur was able to ninja the ring off of his finger.  Arthas has physically beaten dragons when severely weakened and mountain busters casually when fully-powered.


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## trance (Jun 9, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> How exactly does he win even with the One Ring?  He was defeated by a Wolfhound during the Silmarillion before he crafted the ring.  After he crafted the ring, Isildur was able to ninja the ring off of his finger.  Arthas has physically beaten dragons when severely weakened and mountain busters casually when fully-powered.



The sword that cut Sauron was crafted and imbued with incredible magical power. It was basically the only weapon that could hurt him. 

Sauron alone can wipe out armies and cities with a wave of his hand.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 9, 2013)

Frostmoune is not magical or special or haxxed at all


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 9, 2013)

although tbh I think this is a decent match and the characters are similar


still going with Lich King though


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2013)

Lazers said:


> The sword that cut Sauron was crafted and imbued with incredible magical power. It was basically the only weapon that could hurt him.
> 
> Sauron alone can wipe out armies and cities with a wave of his hand.



I mean he totally could wipe out armies with a hand wave just like he did in Lord of the Ri....oh wait.  He didn't at all.  Maiar Sauron couldn't just handwave people in the Silmarillion.  Like I said, he got beaten by Haun the Wolfhound who was giant dog with no notable feats.

Frostmourne casually slays all manner of magical creatures throughout the Warcraft lore and shatters nearly all magical items it has come into direct conflict with.  The exception to this being the Ashbringer, a weapon that functions as a counter to Frostmourne.  Dragons, demons, undead, elves, demi-gods, etc have all fell under its sharp edge.

Narsil was just a magical weapon forged to hurt demons/dark creatures.  It wasn't forged specifically to defeat Sauron.  And implying that it is the only thing capable of hurting Sauron is a massive no-limits fallacy wank.


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## Scary Yacht (Jun 9, 2013)

So is this Sauron during the Battle of Dagorlad or is this Sauron prior to his loss at Greyflood? He had the One Ring in both cases.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> although tbh I think this is a decent match and the characters are similar
> 
> 
> still going with Lich King though



Agreed.  They are very similar.  I feel that Arthas takes the single combat scenario and definitely the army scenario.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2013)

We will say before his loss at Greyflood.  I think that would have been him at his most powerful correct?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 9, 2013)

The undead Vs mordor i smell something, and it smells like dead orcs being turned into undead orcs.


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## TehChron (Jun 9, 2013)

I dunno, Sauron did a good job fucking up the Numenoreans and holding off the Last Alliance, so Army wise, considering that Arthas is literally a massive failure as a strategist, Sauron takes scenario 2.

Also, only dragon I recall Arthas killing is Saph, who wasnt even a high tier amongst the weakest of the major 5 broods. 

Not particularly impressive.


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## TehChron (Jun 9, 2013)

Also, Arthas outright failed to break Flamestrike at Icecrown, and The Blades of Azzinoth were entirely Frostmournes equal in direct combat.

Again. Not that impressive.


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## Ice (Jun 9, 2013)

If I recall, the Numenoreans were already fucked up even before Sauron stepped in. He just gave the final push.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2013)

TehChron said:


> I dunno, Sauron did a good job fucking up the Numenoreans and holding off the Last Alliance, so Army wise, considering that Arthas is literally a massive failure as a strategist, Sauron takes scenario 2.
> 
> Also, only dragon I recall Arthas killing is Saph, who wasnt even a high tier amongst the weakest of the major 5 broods.
> 
> Not particularly impressive.



1.)  Sauron also suffers from extreme megalomania and completely overlooked a much smaller race simply because of the supposed inferiority.  Additionally, he, nor his army, could physically match the Numenoreans in combat and had to resort to treachery to win out when they came knocking at Mordor's door.  He disguised himself in his fair form and infiltrated them that way.  This is a contest of combat, not subterfuge.  Sauron is a pretty decent strategist.

However, Arthas tricked the entire Alliance/Horde forces into dueling him in his domain and effectively killed everyone except his magical equal.  Whom was able to barely undo what Arthas had wrought by destroying Frostmourne.  It was by Ashbringer's tenacity that they won out.  Not a failure on Arthas' part as it pertains to strategy.

2.)  Sapphiron was a powerful dragon tasked with guarding the treasures of the blue dragonflight.  They wouldn't have left that particular guardian there if it wasn't powerful.  Additionally, Arthas beat this powerful foe with dwindling magical powers as the Lich King struggled for survival.  Literally, Arthas was just a lowly Death Knight at that point.



So, no.  I don't believe he wins scenario 2.  Every foe that the undead slay will rise back up as more minions for the Scourge.


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## TehChron (Jun 9, 2013)

Nah, he just played on their vanity and drove their civilization to ruin on that alone.

Starting from his initial surrendering to the Numenorian Host.

Not that hed need that excess intelligence to outwit a man for whom the objective of his absurdly convoluted campaign against the rest of the,planet was an at best Phyrric victory that cost him quite literally to lose the command structure of the Scourge merely to obtain 10-25 soldiers who, as a unit, could overpower each commander on their own.

At least Illidan was sabotaged by all sorts of shit when the Scryers matched on Shattrath. Whats Arthas' excuse?


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## TehChron (Jun 9, 2013)

No, seriously, you know what the smart thing to do would have been, barring tactical necessity?

Send Morgraine, Jaina, Sylvanas, the Ashbringer, Thrall, the heavy hitters, and just beat on him after ICC was cleared out


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## AgentAAA (Jun 9, 2013)

not to mention the fact that Flamestrike and the blades of Azzinoth's tenacity was tested before Arthas got the massive boost in power-up from the Lich King. Arthas one-shots raid encounters with members that normally have enough high-level gear to solo Illidan by that point, using Frostmourne. I'd say that's pretty impressive.


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## Doge (Jun 9, 2013)

Saurfang casts cleave.

Sauron dies.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 9, 2013)

People still using game mechanics as a justification for powerscaling

smh


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## TehChron (Jun 9, 2013)

Apocalypse is Game Mechanics, Newbie-Kun.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 9, 2013)

DarkTorrent said:


> People still using game mechanics as a justification for powerscaling
> 
> smh



You mean the fact he one-hits an entire raid group of people, which is a pre-set number,  and entirely in cinematic?
Game mechanics. mk.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2013)

If it is a scripted attack and then goes into a cinematic, it is no longer a game mechanic.  In the story he freezes the Ashbringer solid and then one shots the heroes.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 9, 2013)

AgentAAA said:


> You mean the fact he one-hits an entire raid group of people, which is a pre-set number,  and entirely in cinematic?
> Game mechanics. mk.



I'm saying that this:



> Arthas one-shots raid encounters with members that normally *have enough high-level gear to solo Illidan* by that point, using Frostmourne. I'd say that's pretty impressive.



is game mechanics.

If we go by your logic then pandaren fodder mobs are stronger than Illidan too, and also C'thun, Ragnaros, Malygos etc etc etc, which is simply retarded.

Raid encounters and ilvl in no shape or form reflect the character's standing in the verse as far as powerlevels go. Only lore does.


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## Bioness (Jun 9, 2013)

TehChron said:


> No, seriously, you know what the smart thing to do would have been, barring tactical necessity?
> 
> Send Morgraine, Jaina, Sylvanas, the Ashbringer, Thrall, the heavy hitters, and just beat on him after ICC was cleared out



Jaina and Sylvanas were there fighting, and got their asses kicked by the Lich King in the Halls of Reflection, Tirion Fordring (with the purified Ashbringer was there as he DID destroy Frostmourne...as for Morgaine...



> Highlord Mograine attempted to attack his master, only to be sent flying. As the Lich King was about to end the Death Knight's life, Darion threw the Corrupted Ashbringer to Tirion who in turn was able to purify it and push the Lich King back with the combined forces of the redeemed blade and the sacred ground.



Granted this was obliviously before the assault on Icecrown. And yeah neither side was going to risk putting their non holy heavy hitters to the front line less they risk another Saurfang.



Fluttershy said:


> Frostmoune is not magical or special or haxxed at all



Oh you.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2013)

Yeah the Illidan comment is pointless to say.  However, the attack itself did completely kill everyone in the room sans Fordring.  The people killed were some the most powerful heroes in the realm.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2013)

Additionally, Sauron completely realizes when the Numenoreans come to Mordor that his forces can't match them.  It was only because they wanted him as a prisoner that he was able to corrupt them.  He didn't just decide to.  The men would have ended the threat right then had they desired.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 9, 2013)

DarkTorrent said:


> I'm saying that this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


4

alright, fair point, but the heroes in the raid should still be considered stronger than the point that they would lorewise have fought Illidan. Not magnitudes stronger, as to my knowledge power jumps are much slower in WoW, but stronger and with better gear, such as Shadowmourne. 
Also, as for C'thun, Ragnaros, and Malygos being stronger, to my knowledge Illidan has no feats that really put him ahead of either. 

The best he did was match Arthas as a death knight without the skull of an orc warlock, then later after a power boost be barely defeated by an Arthas who depending on interpretation was either weaker or stronger by a moderate amount. I wouldn't put Arthas on equal standing with a dragon aspect, so I wouldn't do the same for Illidan.

 And C'thun's an old god, who in full power state would be considered past titan-tier in strength, so even in restricted form I could see C'thun being stronger than a corrupted demon hunter.


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## TehChron (Jun 9, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Additionally, Sauron completely realizes when the Numenoreans come to Mordor that his forces can't match them.  It was only because they wanted him as a prisoner that he was able to corrupt them.  He didn't just decide to.  The men would have ended the threat right then had they desired.



What was Arthas' plan again?


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 9, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Yeah the Illidan comment is pointless to say.  However, the attack itself did completely kill everyone in the room sans Fordring.  The people killed were some the most powerful heroes in the realm.



Jaina, Aethas, Thrall, Tirion etc etc are the most powerful heroes in the realm. The characters you see getting killed, and you as a player represent, are fodders. Best of the best of fodder may be, but still fodders. We do not know how powerful they are, what abilities they have, we do not know anything about them because lorewise they have no feats.



AgentAAA said:


> 4
> 
> alright, fair point, but the heroes in the raid should still be considered stronger than the point that they would lorewise have fought Illidan. Not magnitudes stronger, as to my knowledge power jumps are much slower in WoW, but stronger and with better gear, such as Shadowmourne.



Lorewise your characters do not exist. Period.

Instead it's replaced by a term "adventurers", or sometimes with a named character and his army.

And because of this we do not know if the "adventurers" that helped Maiev to defeat Illidan were the same that later helped Tirion to defeat Arthas. We do not know if they got stronger or weaker, or how strong they were at all. So trying to use "adventurers" aka playable characters for powerscaling is a road to nowhere.



> Also, as for C'thun, Ragnaros, and Malygos being stronger, to my knowledge Illidan has no feats that really put him ahead of either.
> 
> The best he did was match Arthas as a death knight without the skull of an orc warlock, then later after a power boost be barely defeated by an Arthas who depending on interpretation was either weaker or stronger by a moderate amount. I wouldn't put Arthas on equal standing with a dragon aspect, so I wouldn't do the same for Illidan.
> 
> And C'thun's an old god, who in full power state would be considered past titan-tier in strength, so even in restricted form I could see C'thun being stronger than a corrupted demon hunter.



I never said that Illidan was stronger than those three. I pointed out that using game mechanics results in MoP (cata at first, but I edited it) fodder mobs being stronger than those characters. Which they are obviously not.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 9, 2013)

Lure his foes to unholy ground (where he is strong and they are weak)  and destroy them.  Then, raise them as commanders of his army.  Pretty sound plan.  Unfortunately, Fordring had the wherewithal to make one last prayer to be free and destroy Frostmourne.  His god was with him.


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## TehChron (Jun 9, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Lure his foes to unholy ground (where he is strong and they are weak)  and destroy them.  Then, raise them as commanders of his army.  Pretty sound plan.  Unfortunately, Fordring had the wherewithal to make one last prayer to be free and destroy Frostmourne.  His god was with him.



Arthas used to be a Paladin, and was aware of Fordring being stripped of his powers as a Paladin by Uther Lightbringer of all people, and then still using them in spite of that.

Thats not sound at all. Hell, Arthas saw Tirion purify the Ashbringer simply by touching it.

Arthas is a fucking idiot. The iceblock working in the first place was immense CIS against Tirion.

And again: Even assuming everything goes right, it still doesn't erase his incredibly shitty strategic position.

Sure he takes down Tirion, but then the Aspects decide enough is enough and stomp his ass. Assuming the Racial Leaders don't do so themselves


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 9, 2013)

Considering that with this plan he sacrificed most of his commanders and Scourge strongholds and got only Saurfang Jr. in return, then no - it was not a sound plan.


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## TehChron (Jun 9, 2013)

Seriously, Sauron would have Arthas eating out of his hand in scenario 2.

Its that big a gap in intelligence


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 10, 2013)

Yeah and PIS didn't save Sauron at all with the Numenoreans?  I am not saying that Sauron is an idiot.  I am just arguing that Arthas isn't as big as a dolt as you are playing at.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 10, 2013)

Meh, most, if not all, of Arthas's failures that we've seen in Wrath can be contributed to his last shred of humanity that apparently held him back from unleashing the Scourge armies upon Azeroth. So it's basically CIS, which is usually diregarded here in OBD.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 10, 2013)

I don't see how Sauron is going to be able to win against a superior force that is literally taking no prisoners.


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## TehChron (Jun 10, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Yeah and PIS didn't save Sauron at all with the Numenoreans?  I am not saying that Sauron is an idiot.  I am just arguing that Arthas isn't as big as a dolt as you are playing at.





It wasnt PIS? Since Sauron played them like a 2-string banjo

Thats an absurd statement to make. At least try to argue that Arthas is some kind if capable field commander or something


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## TehChron (Jun 10, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> I don't see how Sauron is going to be able to win against a superior force that is literally taking no prisoners.



Hard numbers on the scourges total fielded troops?


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## AgentAAA (Jun 10, 2013)

So, by Lore, any adventurer in WoW doesn't exist and the fact that they clearly directly interface with events has no bearing? Even if we treat it as alternate reality things, the fact is you still have powerful characters with legendary armor and weapons that you end up interfacing with the Lich King directly with.

 Even if we don't treat them as Canon lorewise, the cutscenes are still taking the player, and his group, into account, so the fact they're one-hitted is still notable. The cutscene wasn't hitting mooks off-screen, it was meant to convey the power gap directly to the player's group, some which might have weapons as potent as Shadowmourne by this point, and how boned they are. Thus, even if it didn't occur in Lore, it's still something suitable to point out when in a conversation like this, as the context is still fairly clear. 

TL;DR even if it didn't occur lorewise, it still happened as a feat and was meant to give the player a clear connection to the raid, as well as to understand how powerless all his neat gear was against the Lich King's real strength. 

as for them being fodder, I'd concede they're below the named characters in power, but the fact they're soldiers picked specifically for fighting the Lich King has to give them at least some credit. if this was a mission for fodder, the group would have footmen and the like with them, and they clearly don't. Besides, I can't think of anything I'd call "Fodder" that can cast spells a max-level mage does, or have the weaponry and armor a max-level fighter would normally have.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 10, 2013)

It is directly PIS because they wanted to imprison him instead of actively destroying Mordor which Sauron states that they could do.

It should have been over.

Thus, PIS.

After that he was able to trick them.  Which is why I said that he is a good strategist.


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## TehChron (Jun 10, 2013)

PIS/CIS are for the sake of explaining inconsistencies, iirc.

The Numenorians being cocky is a pretty consistent character trait outside of, say, Aragorn


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## lokoxDZz (Jun 10, 2013)

I go with Lich King


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## Ice (Jun 10, 2013)

The funny thing is, if that last shred of humanity had not been in the way, Arthas would have been able to overrun Azeroth even after the death of many of his lieutenants.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 10, 2013)

TehChron said:


> PIS/CIS are for the sake of explaining inconsistencies, iirc.
> 
> The Numenorians being cocky is a pretty consistent character trait outside of, say, Aragorn



Yes, it doesn't violate their character traits.  Therefore, it isn't an instance of Character-induced-stupidity.

However, the whole world knows Sauron is a threat and the Numenoreans had already pushed Sauron back during the War of the Elves.  They knew his army had once again been reestablished and was poised to wage another war.  Which is why they went in in the first fucking place.  They should have destroyed him.  Therefore, it was an instance of Plot-induced-stupidity.

Hard numbers on the Scourge forces?  Ehh....hundreds of thousands of undead constantly being fed by the ongoing war in Northrend at its peak.


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## TehChron (Jun 10, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Yes, it doesn't violate their character traits.  Therefore, it isn't an instance of Character-induced-stupidity.
> 
> However, the whole world knows Sauron is a threat and the Numenoreans had already pushed Sauron back during the War of the Elves.  They knew his army had once again been reestablished and was poised to wage another war.  Which is why they went in in the first fucking place.  They should have destroyed him.  Therefore, it was an instance of Plot-induced-stupidity.
> 
> Hard numbers on the Scourge forces?  Ehh....hundreds of thousands of undead constantly being fed by the ongoing war in Northrend at its peak.



Thats why I asked for hard numbers, you can easily say something similar for Saurons forces during that period 

Knowing Metzen and his lore fetish, theres got to be some numbers lying around somewhere.



> The funny thing is, if that last shred of humanity had not been in the way, Arthas would have been able to overrun Azeroth even after the death of many of his lieutenants.



Sounds like hype to me. Ner'zhul had no humanity, and he had enough trouble rooting out the Nerubians and setting up the Eastern Kingdoms for Archimonde's summoning.


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## Ice (Jun 10, 2013)

Except the Nerubians knew the land well and could hold up in their underground fortresses. Also, Ner'zhul didn't have as much power as Arthas(Lich King) ever did. 

It's not hype either. Arthas had enough undead troops to overwhelm the living. You underestimate how much power he had with the troops he commanded. Albeit this is not factoring Deathwing interfering.


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## TehChron (Jun 10, 2013)

You keep saying that, but Im just asking for numbers, here.

And last I recall, carpet bombings proved remarkably effective in eliminating the numeric advantages which the Scourge possessed in Icecrown.

Actually, the Scourge chaos scenario is only really a threat if you willfully ignore Azshara, her Old God Masters, and Deathwing. Which again, brings us back to it just being hype.

As if the Old Gods would let some little zombie shit be anywhere remotely resembling a threat to them.


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## Ice (Jun 10, 2013)

TehChron said:


> You keep saying that, but Im just asking for numbers, here.
> 
> And last I recall, carpet bombings proved remarkably effective in eliminating the numeric advantages which the Scourge possessed in Icecrown.
> 
> ...



And how would you want me to acquire these numbers? WoW has never remotely identified how many undead there was. 

>Undead dragons
Not to mention the Scourge can dig underground if needed to avoid the carpet bombings. Also, pray tell me how would they carpet bomb the areas where the Scourge have already engaged in battle with their own forces. 

>Azshara is pure hype
>Old Gods can only currently manipulate the people and who's to say they might not have found the Scourge cleansing the world a positive for them since it removes most of their enemies
>Already said if Deathwing didn't interfere, not to mention he wasn't a problem at that time.

We have absolutely no idea on how the Old Gods would have regarded the Scourge cleansing Azeroth of the living.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 10, 2013)

I am assuming that both sides have an equal number of soldiers.  What I meant by superior force was the quality of the minions under Arthas' command.  Frost Wryms (those created by Sapphiron and Sindragosa), Death Knights, Necromancers, Liches, Nerubians, Wraiths, Zombies, Ghouls, Abominations, etc.  The majority of that crew are powerful spellcasters.  The Lich King's commanders shit on Sauron's and any fallen forces will be resurrected as allies for the other side.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 10, 2013)

AgentAAA said:


> So, by Lore, any adventurer in WoW doesn't exist and the fact that they clearly directly interface with events has no bearing? Even if we treat it as alternate reality things, the fact is you still have powerful characters with legendary armor and weapons that you end up interfacing with the Lich King directly with.
> 
> Even if we don't treat them as Canon lorewise, the cutscenes are still taking the player, and his group, into account, so the fact they're one-hitted is still notable. The cutscene wasn't hitting mooks off-screen, it was meant to convey the power gap directly to the player's group, some which might have weapons as potent as Shadowmourne by this point, and how boned they are. Thus, even if it didn't occur in Lore, it's still something suitable to point out when in a conversation like this, as the context is still fairly clear.
> 
> ...



You have problems with reading comprehension?

I just said that playable characters do not exist in lore, instead they are replaced with adventurers, and you answer me with this:



> So, by Lore, any adventurer in WoW doesn't exist



Maybe I wasn't clear.

There are no max-levels in lore, there is no gear in lore, equipment does not make such a large difference in lore as it does in the game, there are no dozens of Shadowmourns in lore, Lich King did not face anyone with legendary items aside from Tirion in lore, etc etc etc...

Player's only purpose is to expirience the events that are happening and pay Blizz for it.

Everything that is related to playable characters is purely game mechanics. 

Only lore is canon. And only canon has relevance in OBD matches, unless specified by OP.

Was this clear enough?



Axel Almer said:


> The funny thing is, if that last shred of humanity had not been in the way, Arthas would have been able to overrun Azeroth even after the death of many of his lieutenants.



Meh, I would have taken that statement more seriously if it was WIII Scourge. But in WoTLK... What was supposed to be the realm of the dead has ended up being a continent brimming with life 

And it's really hard to take those words seriously, when you see furblogs, Taun'ka, trolls, mammoths and all other manner of living beings running around on Scourge's doorstep. And even more - everyone and their grandmas now suddenly has a base in Lich King's backyard, while the Scourge is loosing one stronghold after another, one commander after another, with only some grand master plan and Arthas's last shred of humanity thrown our way as a half-assed attempt of an excuse.

How can someone believe those words when what he is shown contradicts them?


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## Glued (Jun 10, 2013)

Lorewise, we are mentioned merely as the Champions of Azeroth. We helped Thrall defeat Deathwing. We even helped Baine take back Thunderbluff in the Shattering book. We killed Vanessa Vancleef's father as shown in the flashback. There is also a Legendary Rogue storyline where people who play as Rogues help out Wrathion. We also jumped onto Deathwing's back.

However lorewise

It was King Varian Wrynn who killed Onyxia, not us.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 10, 2013)

was it the right choice for me to quit WoW during BC ? 

meh


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## TehChron (Jun 10, 2013)

After WotLK was the right choice.

And I pulled through until Pandaria.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Jun 10, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> was it the right choice for me to quit WoW during BC ?
> 
> meh



Quests got more advanced and fun in LK

Except for that everything went downhill from Vanilla


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## AgentAAA (Jun 10, 2013)

DarkTorrent said:


> You have problems with reading comprehension?
> 
> I just said that playable characters do not exist in lore, instead they are replaced with adventurers, and you answer me with this:
> 
> ...




That would almost make sense... except it would contradict the entire point of the end of the game. The WHOLE reason that the Lich King allowed the players such easy access to his stronghold was because he wanted to gain some new, strong captains for his army. If they were fodder, then that phrase would have changed to "Captain." Since only Tirion there would be worth raising. If we assume the people drawn are random fodder, the entire motive for the Lich King luring them, would not make sense. I'll let go on the gear thing, though I consider you wrong on this one(Canon or not, it does still have to occur in some AU, accessible to the players, and the Lich King's never implied when fighting the player to be stronger or weaker than "In lore". )

To add a supporting quote:

"
Eventually, the Lich King effortlessly killed all the adventurers with a single devastating attack. The Lich King revealed that he had been waiting for Tirion's assault all along, knowing that he would bring with him Azeroth's greatest heroes, who could then be killed and resurrected as powerful masters of the Scourge. Every obstacle he had laid before them was merely part of his test. Now certain Tirion's champions were "the greatest fighting force this world has ever known", the Lich King began to raise the fallen heroes."
this is quoted directly off the Wiki. if you'd prefer in-game videos or cinematics, I'd be willing to oblige.

Furthermore, every member of the force meant to fight the Lich King was expected to be a champion of the Argent Tournament, and to have fought off opponents such as Saurfang and Sindragosa on the way there. They're at the least elite fodder for the Lich king to have such a high opinion of them, to have defeated the creatures they fought on the way there, and for they alone to have been picked in the Argent Tournament, specifically because they were strong enough to do something more than add numbers to the Lich King's forces. 

As for arthas's last shreds of humanity holds him back - yes, that is definitely an existing thing. This is no minor plot point or something to be glossed over - that's a major plot point that is the main reason Bolvar had to seal himself in ice. It was stated that if the undead were allowed freedom from Arthas's control that they'd be capable to wreak havoc on azeroth. It'd be difficult to be so tactically stupid that wild, uncontrolled undead with no tactics or strategy would somehow be the greater threat, so unless Arthas is wildly incompetent...
As for Ner'zhul not managing to do much more... Ner'zhul was not much of a tactical genius himself, was likely more interested in trying to get his new champion to help him rather than actually taking the world for himself, as he did want Arthas to become his champion and stop him from dying via the frozen throne cracking, and was only noted as having the sparse humans of Northrend  to work with in fighting the Nerubians. He had far less initial resources, much less understanding of the land around him, and was new in using his power over the dead.

Mind you, Ner'zhul was not a total idiot, but I don't remember Orc Ner'zhul doing anything particularly strategic or tactical beyond uniting the horde on Kel'thuzad's orders


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## Poxbox (Jun 10, 2013)

In this case the player characters actually have some canonical (group)feats. As wall-of-text mentioned the "adventurers" are the winners of the argent tournament and whatever they achieved in Icecrown without help from a named hero (if anything, my memory is a bit foggy there) should be usable.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 11, 2013)

AgentAAA said:


> That would almost make sense... except it would contradict the entire point of the end of the game. The WHOLE reason that the Lich King allowed the players such easy access to his stronghold was because he wanted to gain some new, strong captains for his army. If they were fodder, then that phrase would have changed to "Captain." Since only Tirion there would be worth raising. If we assume the people drawn are random fodder, the entire motive for the Lich King luring them, would not make sense.
> 
> To add a supporting quote:
> 
> ...



It would be nice if you read what the person you are responding to actually wrote:



> The characters you see getting killed, and you as a player represent, are fodders. Best of the best of fodder may be, but still fodders. We do not know how powerful they are, what abilities they have, we do not know anything about them



So why did you write that wall of text?



> I'll let go on the gear thing, though I consider you wrong on this one(Canon or not, it does still have to occur in some AU, accessible to the players, and the Lich King's never implied when fighting the player to be stronger or weaker than "In lore". )



So in that AU there are four versions of the Lich King: normal, heroic, 10 men, 25 men? And which one of these versions is the closest to his "in lore" counterpart in strength? 

And I have no idea why you wrote the rest to me.



Poxbox said:


> In this case the player characters actually have some canonical (group)feats. As wall-of-text mentioned the "adventurers" are the winners of the argent tournament and whatever they achieved in Icecrown without help from a named hero (if anything, my memory is a bit foggy there) should be usable.



Which gives us nothing, except for confirming what we already knew - that the Lich King is stronger than his underlings.

We do not know how they did it or how many of them it took to do it. All we know that certain characters were off-paneled by a plot device called "adventurers" or "champions of whatever".

Like I said before, trying to use playable characters or "adventurers"/"champions" as a means of powerscaling is a road to nowhere.


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## AgentAAA (Jun 11, 2013)

DarkTorrent said:


> It would be nice if you read what the person you are responding to actually wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The issue is that in ALL incarnations of said Raid, he's capable of taking out everyone in one hit, within that AU, meaning, he's potent enough to deal with any incarnation of heroes coming at him, with one shot from Frostmourne. That much can be assumed.


as for whether "Ten-man" Twenty man" "Normal" "Heroic" can be used, that's not really an issue when we're talking about the Frostmourne feat, as that occurs in all versions and is equally devastating. Again, that's not a stat convention, that's an actual cinematic attack.

Also, note that the Lich King stated that he was raising "The most powerful army in the world" When raising the adventurers. Unless you wish to go with "Cinematic elements that have anything to do with PC's are dropped, which makes the Lich king rather hard to scale, that is still an issue.

 "Best of the best of fodder" Normally don't = "The most powerful army in the world" To a man who's previously had under his command frost wyrms, Liches, Death knights, and several champions of high potency. His wish to sacrifice said pawns just to get said PC's is likewise similar. He didn't just say it - he bet on it and made an elaborate plan to obtain said army. 

As for the rest of the wall of text, because you stated earlier that you believed the idea that arthas's last shreds of humanity being what holds the scourge back as being "Hard to believe"  so it was in answer to this quote



> Sounds like hype to me. Ner'zhul had no humanity, and he had enough trouble rooting out the Nerubians and setting up the Eastern Kingdoms for Archimonde's summoning.



And this quote:



> Meh, I would have taken that statement more seriously if it was WIII Scourge. But in WoTLK... What was supposed to be the realm of the dead has ended up being a continent brimming with life
> 
> And it's really hard to take those words seriously, when you see furblogs, Taun'ka, trolls, mammoths and all other manner of living beings running around on Scourge's doorstep. And even more - everyone and their grandmas now suddenly has a base in Lich King's backyard, while the Scourge is loosing one stronghold after another, one commander after another, with only some grand master plan and Arthas's last shred of humanity thrown our way as a half-assed attempt of an excuse.
> 
> How can someone believe those words when what he is shown contradicts them?


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## Endless Mike (Jun 11, 2013)

Arthas probably wins but I like Sauron much better as a character.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 11, 2013)

AgentAAA said:


> The issue is that in ALL incarnations of said Raid, he's capable of taking out everyone in one hit, within that AU, meaning, he's potent enough to deal with any incarnation of heroes coming at him, with one shot from Frostmourne. That much can be assumed.
> 
> 
> as for whether "Ten-man" Twenty man" "Normal" "Heroic" can be used, that's not really an issue when we're talking about the Frostmourne feat, as that occurs in all versions and is equally devastating. Again, that's not a stat convention, that's an actual cinematic attack.



You really have trouble with reading what people actually write, don't you?

I've never disputed the fact that Lich King is capable of one-shotting unnamed mooks with unknown durability. What I disputed was your statement that this cinematic gives us something to work with, which it doesn't for obvious reasons I stated a couple of times already.

The comment about four different versions of Lich King was me making fun of your obsession with gear and general inability to discern what is game mechanics and what vaguely represents canonical lore.



> Also, note that the Lich King stated that he was raising "The most powerful army in the world" When raising the adventurers. Unless you wish to go with "Cinematic elements that have anything to do with PC's are dropped, which makes the Lich king rather hard to scale, that is still an issue.
> 
> "Best of the best of fodder" Normally don't = "The most powerful army in the world" To a man who's previously had under his command frost wyrms, Liches, Death knights, and several champions of high potency. His wish to sacrifice said pawns just to get said PC's is likewise similar. He didn't just say it - he bet on it and made an elaborate plan to obtain said army.



Armies consist mostly of fodders. So an army with the strongest fodders will be stronger than the army with weaker fodders, that much is obvious isn't it?

The fact that he was sacrificing his commanders and Scourge elite, that individually are much stronger than the "adventurers" and required dozens (unkown ammount actually) of "champions" to defeat said underlings, to attain those fodders was stupid. This was established a long time ago in this thread. And I never argued against it, but supported it.

Or blame his last shred of humanity for it, if you don't want to consider the Lich King as completely incompetent.



> As for the rest of the wall of text, because you stated earlier that you believed the idea that arthas's last shreds of humanity being what holds the scourge back as being "Hard to believe"  so it was in answer to this quote



Except what I was finding hard to take seriously was the statement about the Scourge destroying all life on Azeroth, when the Northred alone, a continent that belongs to them, is full of life. And the Scourge has been there for several years already.

If it was "Arthas's last shred of humanity holding the Scourge back", like you for some reason thought I did, then this my statement:



> And it's really hard to take those words seriously, when you see furblogs, Taun'ka, trolls, mammoths and all other manner of living beings running around on Scourge's doorstep. And even more - everyone and their grandmas now suddenly has a base in Lich King's backyard, while the Scourge is loosing one stronghold after another, one commander after another, with only some grand master plan and Arthas's last shred of humanity thrown our way as a half-assed attempt of an excuse.



doesn't make sense. 

So I have no idea how you came to that conslusion.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 11, 2013)

DT, you're a patient man


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 11, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> DT, you're a patient man



Not really. I just like to repeat myself


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## AgentAAA (Jun 11, 2013)

DarkTorrent said:


> You really have trouble with reading what people actually write, don't you?
> 
> I've never disputed the fact that Lich King is capable of one-shotting unnamed mooks with unknown durability. What I disputed was your statement that this cinematic gives us something to work with, which it doesn't for obvious reasons I stated a couple of times already.
> 
> ...



Except that last I checked, a few dozen guys aren't normally enough to beat powerful undead dragons, death knights are shown as more than capable of taking out quite a few soldiers by themselves. Korialstrasz, an above-average red dragon, is capable of casually nuking several dozen undead soldiers with one blast of flame from the air, and he's a consort dragon that should by all accounts be younger, and therefore less powerful, than Sindragosa was. Even if we say Sindragosa was half as powerful, you're not going to see even an undead dragon lose to a few dozen fodder.

Moreover, I've no idea when the fact that "Adventurers" are what the raid group is labelled as in lore, contradicts the fact the PC's do it. The PC's are also labelled as adventurers in-game, so saying that "Any cinematic involving the PC's doing something" invalidates the feat removes quite a bit of WoW, particularly given the story is player-driven. if we don't go by said feat, the lich king becomes a mostly featless character given the only other instance he fights is on holy ground. which did give Tirion an unquantified, and therefore unknown, amount of advantage. 

as for the idea of the Lich King being stupid enough to waste quite a few champions for strong fodder, no. That requires him to be literally too stupid to live if he's doing it for essentially nothing. You wpulf either have to have a low opinion of the Lich King to the point that you consider him mentally retarded, or you would have to consider his champions to be phenomenally weak.


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## TehChron (Jun 11, 2013)

Except thats both what happened, and was explicitly stated to be what happened by the,character himself.

So yes. He really was too dumb to live.


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## Punchsplosion (Jun 11, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Except thats both what happened, and was explicitly stated to be what happened by the,character himself.
> 
> So yes. He really was too dumb to live.



Could you please stop harping on so much about how you dislike the character instead of trying to prove that Sauron can win this fight.  Take your hatred and downplaying of the Lich King into a blog or something.  As it stands, Sauron loses scenario 1 due to the Lich King's magical and physical might.  He loses scenario 2 because of the necromancy and superior forces at the Lich King's disposal.


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## TehChron (Jun 11, 2013)

All Im saying is that all indications are heavily against the Lich King strategizing himself out of a paper bag.

This is not downplaying, unless you can indicate that hes somehow not laughably incompetent, feel free to do so.


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## Glued (Jun 11, 2013)

Well he did have drakuru manipulate the fall and destruction of Drakkari Empire. Poor trolls.


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## TehChron (Jun 11, 2013)

Yeah, but then he killed Drakuru due to him being overly trusting.

Executing Drakuru was massive wastefulness on his part, that guy was casually cornering the Drakkari until the Argents and Ebons actively sabotaged him.


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