# Prime Rayleigh's Battles



## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 11, 2014)

Location: Dressrosa, starting distance is 50 meters.
Intel: Full.
Mindset: Bloodlusted.
Restrictions: None.

Battle 1: SH Crew plus Law.
Battle 2: Pre TS Warlords (without Mihawk).
Battle 3: Marco and Jozu.
Battle 4: Akainu.
Battle 5: Shanks.


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## Extravlad (Oct 11, 2014)

lol.

Battle 1 mid diff in favor of Rayleigh.

Battle 2 mid diff as well.

Battle 3 the duo wins extreme diff.

Battle 4 can go either way.

Battle 5 Rayleigh extreme diff.


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## Ruse (Oct 11, 2014)

Shanks and Akainu would take Ray to the limit but he'd edge them with extreme diff IMO.

He should take the first two, not entirely sure about Marco/Jozu


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## TheWiggian (Oct 11, 2014)

Battle 1: Ray mid diff
Battle 2: Ray high mid diff
Battle 3: Duo edges it out extreme diff
Battle 4: Ray high high diff
Battle 5: Ray high high-extreme diff


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## Furinji Saiga (Oct 11, 2014)

Last three are extreme difficulty/ either way.


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## Amol (Oct 11, 2014)

Location: Dressrosa, starting distance is 50 meters.
Intel: Full.
Mindset: Bloodlusted.
Restrictions: None.

Battle 1: SH Crew plus Law. :-
*Ray Mid(high) diff .*
Battle 2: Pre TS Warlords (without Mihawk).:-* So Prime Ray vs Crocodile, Yami Teach , Moria ,Brain Kuma ,DD, Hancock and Jimbei. It could go either way honestly or atleast extreme diff for Prime Ray. *
Battle 3: Marco and Jozu. :-
*Extreme diff either way favouring duo more times .*
Battle 4: Akainu. : -*Prime Ray wins High (mid) diff.*
Battle 5: Shanks. :-* Prime Ray wins High (mid) diff .*


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## Extravlad (Oct 11, 2014)

Prime Rayleigh wank as usual yea this guy who wasn't even top 3 of his era is definitely high-diffing the strongest marine of his generation and Luffy's role model.

/s

Prime Rayleigh is Mihawk's lvl AT BEST.


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## Orca (Oct 11, 2014)

1. Ray wins
2. Ray wins
3. Ray loses 
4. Ray wins
5. Could go either way 

Speculation mostly.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 11, 2014)

1)Wins
2)Gets killed by Doflamingo.


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## Sherlōck (Oct 11, 2014)

> Battle 1: SH Crew plus Law.



He wins.



> Battle 2: Pre TS Warlords (without Mihawk).



Wins extreme difficulty.



> Battle 3: Marco and Jozu.



Loses.



> Battle 4: Akainu.



Loses.



> Battle 5: Shanks.



Can go either way.


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## Luke (Oct 11, 2014)

He clears the first few, but Akainu/Shanks can go either way.


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## Kaiser (Oct 11, 2014)

Battle 1: Prime Rayleigh mid difficulty
Battle 2: The Warlords take this high difficulty.
Battle 3: Could go either way but leaning towards Rayleigh.
Battle 4: Rayleigh high difficulty
Battle 5: Rayleigh high difficulty


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## 108CaliberPhoenix (Oct 11, 2014)

Ray Mid (upper) 

Ray very high, haki should be adequate enough to negate the hax

Duo extreme diff

Toss up

Toss up


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## Extravlad (Oct 11, 2014)

People who actually think Prime Rayleigh can beat Shanks/Akainu with high diff should really stop arguing on powerlvl.


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## Kaiser (Oct 11, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> People who actually think Prime Rayleigh can beat Shanks/Akainu with high diff should really stop arguing on powerlvl.


Why? Rayleigh implied that in his prime he could handle Kizaru alongside his back-ups(meaning Kuma, Sentoumaru and Pacifistas), so it implied a gap in strength between them and Akainu is only slightly stronger than Kizaru as it stands and i consider Shanks to be on Akainu level


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## Extravlad (Oct 11, 2014)

> Why? Rayleigh implied that in his prime he could handle Kizaru alongside his back-ups(meaning Kuma, Sentoumaru and Pacifistas), so it implied a gap in strength between them and Akainu is only slightly stronger than Kizaru as it stands and i consider Shanks to be on Akainu level


Which imply that he'd be able to beat Kizaru and nothing more, Kuma,Sentoumaru and Pacifistas are fodders, no one care about them they'd be no trouble for Old Rayleigh once Kizaru is down.
It make absolutely no sense for someone who wasn't even in the top 3 at the time of his prime (wb/roger > garp > rayleigh) to be able to high diff Shanks and Akainu.

It's either way an extrem diff fight.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 11, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Which imply that he'd be able to beat Kizaru and nothing more, Kuma,Sentoumaru and Pacifistas are fodders, no one care about them they'd be no trouble for Old Rayleigh once Kizaru is down.
> It make absolutely no sense for someone who wasn't even in the top 3 at the time of his prime (wb/roger > garp > rayleigh) to be able to high diff Shanks and Akainu.
> 
> It's either way an extrem diff fight.


Whether Rayleigh isn't the top 3 doesn't matter. He is in their league meaning he isn't going down with leas than high diff from any of the top 3 old gen. And why do you keep saying he is on Mihawk's level at best as if we know Mihawk's full strength?


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## Orca (Oct 11, 2014)

We don't even know if Rayleigh was weaker than Garp at all.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 11, 2014)

Sherlōck said:


> He wins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ghost (Oct 11, 2014)

Ray is not beating Akainu or Shanks with just high diff.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 11, 2014)

Luffee said:


> We don't even know if Rayleigh was weaker than Garp at all.



How do you go battle the Captain when you aren't strongee than the VC?


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## Amol (Oct 11, 2014)

(Yawns)
For record I wrote High(mid) diff for Akainu and Shanks, it is not 'just' a high diff. Next step would be High(high) diff I.e., extreme diff .
Both steps doesn't have much difference . This is a loltiers example.
Trust a troll to lack reading comprehension.


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## barreltheif (Oct 11, 2014)

With heals between fights, he clears. Without heals, he loses at Marco+Jozu.


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## Orca (Oct 11, 2014)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> How do you go battle the Captain when you aren't strongee than the VC?



You don't need to be stronger than the vice captain to battle the captain.


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## barreltheif (Oct 11, 2014)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> How do you go battle the Captain when you aren't strongee than the VC?




Smoker is weaker than Zoro. Most of the opponents Luffy has beaten were weaker than Zoro.


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## Amol (Oct 11, 2014)

Lets not turn this into shitty Luffy vs Zoro thread.
It has been done to death now.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 11, 2014)

Luffee said:


> You don't need to be stronger than the vice captain to battle the captain.


Yes, but you can't give the captain a deathmatch and not be stronger than his righthand man.


barreltheif said:


> Smoker is weaker than Zoro. Most of the opponents Luffy has beaten were weaker than Zoro.



Smoker and Luffy have never had a real fight. Most of the arc villains/captains are stronger than their right hand man.
Lucci, Crocodile, Enel, Moria, Arlong etc.


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## Extravlad (Oct 11, 2014)

I don't care about what you wrote, anyone who think Rayleigh can win against Shanks/Sakauki with less than extreme diff is a wanker.



> Whether Rayleigh isn't the top 3 doesn't matter. He is in their league meaning he isn't going down with leas than high diff from any of the top 3 old gen. And why do you keep saying he is on Mihawk's level at best as if we know Mihawk's full strength?


No he is not in their league at all, stop with this nonsense please, WB had heart attacks and was still much stronger than Old Rayleigh.
Facts : Old WB > Kizaru > Old Rayleigh.
Now guess what a healthy WB in his prime would do to Prime Rayleigh? Yea he'd high iff him because Prime Rayleigh isn't any better than the middle gen toptiers.

Prime Rayleigh is pretty much what Shanks would've been if he didn't lose his left arm.
Mihawk lvl.

By beating Mihawk Zoro will surpass Prime Rayleigh and become the strongest swordsman ever.



> Lucci, Crocodile, Enel, Moria, Arlong etc.


Zoro > Arlong is canon.
EL Zoro = EL Luffy according to the databooks.
Moriah was stronger than Luffy at TB.
Crocodile was also stronger than Luffy.

Yea with the right context Zoro can beat any of these guys.


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## Amol (Oct 11, 2014)

I don't care what you wrote and if you don't agree with me then you are wanker blah blah blah.
Time to super ignore.


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## Orca (Oct 11, 2014)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> Yes, but you can't give the captain a deathmatch and not be stronger than his righthand man.
> 
> 
> Smoker and Luffy have never had a real fight. Most of the arc villains/captains are stronger than their right hand man.
> Lucci, Crocodile, Enel, Moria, Arlong etc.



If you're implying Garp could give Roger(at Roger's best) extreme diff, then I disagree. I think it should be high diff which Rayleigh should manage as well.


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## Kaiser (Oct 11, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> No he is not in their league at all, stop with this nonsense please, WB had heart attacks and was still much stronger than Old Rayleigh.
> Facts : Old WB > Kizaru > Old Rayleigh.


I hope you know you're talking about a old Rayleigh coming out of a 20 years of inactivity in this comparison 

I also hope you know that the heart attack thing isn't included in Whitebeard's strongest man title. Marco who is with Whitebeard all along was surprised his condition worsened so let alone outsiders


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## Extravlad (Oct 11, 2014)

> I hope you know you're talking about a old Rayleigh coming out of a 20 years of inactivity in this comparison


Because it's so much more impressive than WB having heart attacks the whole war and still winning a 1V1 against Sakazuki right?



> I also hope you know that the heart attack thing isn't included in Whitebeard's strongest man title. Marco who is with Whitebeard all along was surprised his condition worsened so let alone outsiders


Does it actually matter? WB proved that he was the strongest regardless of his heart attacks when he took on an admiral gauntlet and even defeated one despite being severely injured priot to the fight.

Rayleigh was exhausted after 5 minutes of swordplay


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## Gohara (Oct 11, 2014)

1. The Strawhats and Law win with around mid difficulty.

2. Doflamingo, Hancock, Kuma, Jinbe, Crocodile, and Moriah win with around high difficulty.

3. At my lowest estimation of Jozu, Rayleigh wins with around high difficulty.  At my middle estimation of Jozu, it could go either way, but if I had to choose I would lean towards Rayleigh winning with high to extremely high difficulty.  At my highest estimation of Jozu, it could go either way, but if I had to choose I would lean towards Marco and Jozu winning with high to extremely high difficulty.

4. If it's pre time skip Akainu, Rayleigh wins with mid to high difficulty.  If it's current Akainu, it could go either way, but if I had to choose I would lean towards Rayleigh winning with high to extremely high difficulty.

5. Shanks wins with around mid difficulty.


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## Crocodile Atlas (Oct 11, 2014)

Prime Rayleigh mid diffs the first three scenarios. He beats Akainu high difficulty and beats Shanks with as much difficulty as possible without losing.


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## convict (Oct 11, 2014)

- Ray wins low to mid
- Ray wins mid-high
- They take Ray out but it will at least be a high difficulty fight
- Ray _probably_ wins extreme difficulty
- They should be around equalish


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## TheWiggian (Oct 11, 2014)

Great thread 3 trolls arguing and 1 dirty wanker is trying to turn it into a Mihawk vs Shanks thread. Gj


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Oct 11, 2014)

ok people its obvious Im not an Akainu/Shanks wanker...How can people think that Ray wins against Akainu/Shanks but then loses against Marco and Jozu combo? Jozu isnt any better than Vista and we saw that Marco + VIsta wasn't enough to beat Akainu


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## Freechoice (Oct 11, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> People who actually think Prime Rayleigh can beat Shanks/Akainu with high diff should really stop arguing on powerlvl.



Bro neither side is right or wrong, it's entirely speculation.

There is no basis for any claim in regards to Prime versions of characters.

Why chastise people so much who think differently to you when it's essentially guesswork?

Feel free to argue your perspective on the matter but there is no inherent need to dismiss someone and basically say they know nothing about powerlevels


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## Dunno (Oct 11, 2014)

Battle 1: SH Crew plus Law. - Ray low/mid diff
Battle 2: Pre TS Warlords (without Mihawk). - Ray mid diff
Battle 3: Marco and Jozu. - Ray mid diff
Battle 4: Akainu. - Ray mid/high diff
Battle 5: Shanks. - Ray high diff


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## trance (Oct 12, 2014)

Gohara said:


> 5. Shanks wins with around mid difficulty.



Shanks beating Roger's right hand, partner and "The Dark King" with mid difficulty? 

Anyway...

Rayleigh wins them all.

Low, high, very high/extreme, high/very high, high/very high.


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## Extravlad (Oct 12, 2014)

lol said:


> Bro neither side is right or wrong, it's entirely speculation.
> 
> There is no basis for any claim in regards to Prime versions of characters.
> 
> ...


There is basis for this claim.
If Prime Rayleigh can actually high diff ppl like Akainu and Shanks then both WB and Roger (who were stronger than Prime Rayleigh by a good margin) must be able to mid diff the strongest toptiers of the middle gen.
And this make absolutely no sense.

Old gen is overrated, Roger wouldn't beat a Yonko with less than high diff, Prime Rayleigh is in the same league as the C3/Yonko, Prime Garp is weaker than Old Whitebeard.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 12, 2014)

Prime Garp is weaker than Old WB because you make the rules and write OP


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## Dunno (Oct 12, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> There is basis for this claim.
> If Prime Rayleigh can actually high diff ppl like Akainu and Shanks then both WB and Roger (*who were stronger than Prime Rayleigh by a good margin*) must be able to mid diff the strongest toptiers of the middle gen.
> And this make absolutely no sense.
> 
> Old gen is overrated, Roger wouldn't beat a Yonko with less than high diff, Prime Rayleigh is in the same league as the C3/Yonko, Prime Garp is weaker than Old Whitebeard.



How did you figure that out? Old Rayleigh is in the same league as the C3/Yonko, and that's after 20 years of inactivity, laziness and drinking. How the heck would he be in their league in his prime?


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## Extravlad (Oct 12, 2014)

> How did you figure that out? Old Rayleigh is in the same league as the C3/Yonko, and that's after 20 years of inactivity, laziness and drinking. How the heck would he be in their league in his prime?


How is Old Rayleigh in the same league as the C3/Yonko?
He was exhausted after 10 minutes of swordplay 

An old Whitebeard with fucking heart attacks was still the WSM, it's 10 times more impressive.


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## Dunno (Oct 12, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> How is Old Rayleigh in the same league as the C3/Yonko?
> *He was exhausted after 10 minutes of swordplay*
> 
> An old Whitebeard with fucking heart attacks was still the WSM, it's 10 times more impressive.



Just like Kizaru was gushing blood, amiright? 

The truth is that both of them had their advantages. Rayleigh was panting for one panel only to be totally non-tired and not even sweating in the next. This indicates that he got a tiny bit tired in the middle of the most intensive part of their battle but recovered instantly after it. Kizaru got his cheek cut in a straight up clash, and bled a little. This indicates that Rayleigh had a tiny advantage when it comes to skill and general ability to push through his opponent's defences.


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## barreltheif (Oct 12, 2014)

People pant all the time during fights, even when they're winning. Zoro was panting against Pica. It doesn't mean anything.
Old Rayleigh ~ Kizaru.
Prime Rayleigh ~ Prime Garp <= Old WB.


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## Extravlad (Oct 12, 2014)

Not at all Zoro was panting because Pica was being an annoying piss of shit and made him run.
Rayleigh clearly implied that he was weaker than Kizaru.
Now stop wanking this character Old Rayleigh isn't C3/Yonko lvl, only Prime Rayleigh is.


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## TheWiggian (Oct 12, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Not at all Zoro was panting because Pica was being an annoying piss of shit and made him run.
> Rayleigh clearly implied that he was weaker than Kizaru.
> Now stop wanking this character Old Rayleigh isn't C3/Yonko lvl, only Prime Rayleigh is.



Ofc Prime Ray was weaker as Roger but he still was and is a legend and overall more powerful as other 1st mates introduced so far.

Roger>=Primebeard>=Prime Garp>=Prime Ray/Prime Shiki/Sengoku Prime

Just like: PK Luffy>=^ (use bro) BB>=FA Sakazuki>=WSS Zoro/Law/Kid and other cancer SNs


ck


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## Extravlad (Oct 12, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> Ofc Prime Ray was weaker as Roger but he still was and is a legend and overall more powerful as other 1st mates introduced so far.
> 
> Roger>=Primebeard>=Prime Garp>=Prime Ray/Prime Shiki/Sengoku Prime
> 
> ...


No.
Prime Whitebeard is stronger than Prime Garp, the >= make no sense Prime Garp is overrated just like Rayleigh, he wasn't in Roger's league either only WB was.

Zoro will be stronger than Rayleigh ever was.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 12, 2014)

The annoying part about you Extravlad is that you say stuff as if you're the freaking Author. All of us admit we're just speculating but you say shit as if they're proven in the manga


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## TheWiggian (Oct 12, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> No.
> Prime Whitebeard is stronger than Prime Garp, the >= make no sense Prime Garp is overrated just like Rayleigh, he wasn't in Roger's league either only WB was.
> 
> Zoro will be stronger than Rayleigh ever was.







Sure boy whatever gives u a boner


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## Extravlad (Oct 12, 2014)

> The annoying part about you Extravlad is that you say stuff as if you're the freaking Author. All of us admit we're just speculating but you say shit as if they're proven in the manga


This is not speculation when the manga heavily imply it.
Look how can you believe for a second that Rayleigh in his prime would have been able to high diff whole freaking middle gen ?

No one in the middle gen is good enough to give Rayleigh an extreme diff fight? Sakazuki,Shanks,Dragon,Kaido,Bigmom,Kuzan,Mihawk, you think these guys would get high diff by a guy who wasn't even top 3 of his era?
It make absolutely no sense.

WB and Roger > Garp > The rest.

Rayleigh is nothing special compared to the middle gen, he's your average hightoptier whereas WB/Roger were exceptions, Garp as well not quite as strong as WB/Roge but still above the rest.


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## Monster (Oct 12, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> No.
> Prime Whitebeard is stronger than Prime Garp, the >= make no sense Prime Garp is overrated just like Rayleigh, he wasn't in Roger's league either only WB was.
> 
> Zoro will be stronger than Rayleigh ever was.



I agree with this.

Roger=Whitebeard > Garp


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## Magician (Oct 12, 2014)

People still haven't super ignored Extravlad?

OT:

1. Ray stomps
2. low diff
3. mid diff
4. high diff
5. extreme


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## Extravlad (Oct 12, 2014)

They should definitely ignore you as well then because saying that Rayleigh can mid diff Marco + Jozu shouldn't be legal


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## Gohara (Oct 12, 2014)

Trance said:


> Shanks beating Roger's right hand, partner and "The Dark King" with mid difficulty?



Based on my estimations, yes.


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## trance (Oct 12, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Based on my estimations, yes.



Then that means Shanks > Roger since Roger could never just "mid diff" his first mate like that. 

Shanks ISN'T stronger than his captain.


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## convict (Oct 13, 2014)

Trance said:


> Then that means Shanks > Roger since Roger could never just "mid diff" his first mate like that.
> 
> Shanks ISN'T stronger than his captain.



If the guy thinks Shanks is mid-diffing Rayleigh he very likely thinks Roger can at least do so as well. You shouldn't try to rationalize with him with that argument rather you should try to focus on Rayleigh and why you think he is far stronger than Gohara's estimations (on which I agree with you).


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## Wayne With The Ism (Oct 13, 2014)

Imo even Prime Rayleigh isn't beating Luffy's marine counterpart, strongest current marine, and especially not with high diff, lol what. Going either way extreme with Akainu having the upper hand.


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## TheWiggian (Oct 13, 2014)

Since when Akainu replaced Smoker as being Luffys marine counterpart?


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## Raiden34 (Oct 13, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> lol.
> 
> Battle 1 mid diff in favor of Rayleigh.
> 
> ...



Agreed. +1


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## Gohara (Oct 13, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

Not necessarily.  I estimate that Roger would defeat prime Rayleigh with around mid difficulty at most.


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## Ruse (Oct 13, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Starkiller.
> 
> Not necessarily.  I estimate that Roger would defeat prime Rayleigh with around mid difficulty at most.



So you think Shanks is as strong as Roger then?


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## Gohara (Oct 13, 2014)

Well, I see it as a possibility, but I would give Roger the benefit of the doubt.  Still, I think Shanks is at least very close to his level.


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## trance (Oct 13, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Well, I see it as a possibility, but I would give Roger the benefit of the doubt.  Still, I think Shanks is at least very close to his level.



No. Shanks gets beaten by Roger 10 times out of 10. Maybe with mid difficulty. Maybe with high difficulty. He still loses.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Oct 14, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> Since when Akainu replaced Smoker as being Luffys marine counterpart?



Since timeskip.


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## TheWiggian (Oct 14, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> Since timeskip.






Elaborate pls


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## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

Well, I don't blame you for giving Roger the benefit of the doubt, but there's not really anything suggesting that Roger would defeat Shanks with any less than high to extremely high difficulty.  I'm not saying there's clearly convincing evidence and/or proof on the contrary, but then again it was you who seemed to have an issue with where I rank Shanks and not the other way around.


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## trance (Oct 14, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Starkiller.
> 
> Well, I don't blame you for giving Roger the benefit of the doubt, but there's not really anything suggesting that Roger would defeat Shanks with any less than high to extremely high difficulty.  I'm not saying there's clearly convincing evidence and/or proof on the contrary, but then again it was you who seemed to have an issue with where I rank Shanks and not the other way around.



No. There's no "giving Roger benefit of the doubt" at all. He's stronger than Shanks. Might as well be fact.


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## Monster (Oct 14, 2014)

Is there really somebody on this Earth who is trying to argue that Shanks could give Roger an extreme diff fight?


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## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

If it's a fact, then you're certainly more than welcome to prove it.  Not that I'm saying Roger isn't stronger than Shanks, but being Pirate King in an era Shanks wasn't in his prime doesn't necessarily mean Roger is a whole league above Shanks or anything to that effect.


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## Monster (Oct 14, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Starkiller.
> 
> If it's a fact, then you're certainly more than welcome to prove it.  Not that I'm saying Roger isn't stronger than Shanks, but being Pirate King in an era Shanks wasn't in his prime doesn't necessarily mean Roger is a whole league above Shanks or anything to that effect.



Roger WAS a whole league above Shanks.


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## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

What proof is there of that?


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## Monster (Oct 14, 2014)

Gohara said:


> What proof is there of that?



Because Shanks was weaker than an old and sick Whitebeard and Roger was equal to a PRIME Whitebeard. Large gap.


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## zenieth (Oct 14, 2014)

Extreme diff either way for Shanks and Akainu.


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## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

Pepe said:


> Because Shanks was weaker than an old and sick Whitebeard and Roger was equal to a PRIME Whitebeard. Large gap.



I assume you're saying Shanks is weaker than old/sick Whitebeard because of the latter's title, but it's likely that the latter gained that title around 20 years ago, and it's possible that his strength lessening due to being old/sick wasn't verifiable or enough to take away the title since it wouldn't be his fault.

So, that doesn't necessarily serve as full fledged proof that Shanks is weaker than old/sick Whitebeard.  Personally, I estimate Shanks to be at least around old/sick Whitebeard's level (since Shanks is going to be the one to pass the torch to Luffy I personally believe him to be stronger).


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## Monster (Oct 14, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I assume you're saying Shanks is weaker than old/sick Whitebeard because of the latter's title, but it's likely that the latter gained that title around 20 years ago, and it's possible that his strength lessening due to being old/sick wasn't verifiable or enough to take away the title since it wouldn't be his fault.
> 
> So, that doesn't necessarily serve as full fledged proof that Shanks is weaker than old/sick Whitebeard.  Personally, I estimate Shanks to be at least around old/sick Whitebeard's level (since Shanks is going to be the one to pass the torch to Luffy I personally believe him to be stronger).



Sengoku said Old Whitebeard was the strongest man in the world.


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## Kaiser (Oct 14, 2014)

Roger is stronger than Shanks because Shanks admitted in chapter1(to Luffy) that pirate king level is above his level. Roger is stronger than Shanks because his rival in a old and sick state had the title of world strongest above him and himself admitted Whitebeard's position was above his position when he discussed with him on the Moby Dick. Roger is stronger than Shanks because he can't somehow reach raftel on his own despite knowing the way through. The closest to One Piece was Old and sick Whitebeard, not Shanks, despite the fact Shanks should know the way to Raftel better than him. There is no benefit of doubt in there. Roger is simply stronger than Shanks


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## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

@ Sakazuki.

Yes, because that's Whitebeard's reputation, which again is likely a reputation he gained around 20 years ago.  The only likely way Sengoku would change his mind is if he witnessed Shanks defeating old/sick Whitebeard.  Even then, Sengoku might say that Whitebeard only lost because he's old/sick, and thus still declare Whitebeard as the strongest man in the world.

I understand the thought process of "I believe old/sick Whitebeard is the strongest until proven otherwise", but that doesn't mean everyone has to think that way.  Simply going by my experience reading fiction, among other things, I think Shanks' role as passer of the torch and the one Luffy is going to surpass around the end of the series says more about his strength than you seem to.


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## Monster (Oct 14, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Yes, because that's Whitebeard's reputation, which again is likely a reputation he gained around 20 years ago.  The only likely way Sengoku would change his mind is if he witnessed Shanks defeating old/sick Whitebeard.  Even then, Sengoku might say that Whitebeard only lost because he's old/sick, and thus still declare Whitebeard as the strongest man in the world.
> 
> I understand the thought process of "I believe old/sick Whitebeard is the strongest until proven otherwise", but that doesn't mean everyone has to think that way.  Simply going by my experience reading fiction, among other things, I think Shanks' role as passer of the torch and the one Luffy is going to surpass around the end of the series says more about his strength than you seem to.



Until you can prove Whitebeard was not the strongest, I'll take Sengoku's word over yours any day and Whitebeard has the portrayal and feats to back it up.  All Shanks role shows is that he is strong. He doesn't have to be the strongest to pass the torch. 

And yes you can believe in whatever you want and have all kinds of retarded opinions. You have that right. And we have the right to call you out on your stupidity.


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## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

I didn't ask you to take my word over Sengoku's.  You asked me why I believe Shanks may not be completely out of Roger's league, and I explained why.

In fiction, passing the torch often does mean the torch passer is the strongest of whatever it is they are (in this case pirates) since the beginning of that series.

Saying a view that disagrees with yours is stupid and retarded is just empty ad hominem.  I have no interest in getting into insults, but yes indeed you are more than welcome to believe what you want.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

@ Kaiser.

I must note that my point isn't to say that Shanks= Roger.  I just don't see anything suggesting that Shanks is clearly below Roger's league altogether.  Having said that:

-Shanks said that 12 years ago.  Also, rank wise it technically is above his level, even if he may be strong enough to be Pirate King (which he may not be).

-I've already responded to old/sick Whitebeard having the title of World's Strongest Man.  So, refer to what I said above on that.  

-What statement from Shanks are you referring to when you say he admitted that Whitebeard is above him?

-I don't think it was stated that Shanks can't reach Raftel.  It's very possible that he went there with Roger, or that he at least knows where it is and can get there, but doesn't have any interest in it.


----------



## Kaiser (Oct 14, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Kaiser.
> 
> I must note that my point isn't to say that Shanks= Roger.  I just don't see anything suggesting that Shanks is clearly below Roger's league altogether.  Having said that:
> 
> ...


@bold He didn't explicitely said that but it was pretty much implied. He says that after aiming for the top, Teach will eventually take over his(Whitebeard's) position too: 

*Explanation*

Eventually = After some time
Too = as well

In short, he was saying that after reaching the top(yonkous), he will be aiming after some time for the ultimate position(Whitebeard's position). That clearly shows inferiority since he considers Whitebeard's position as supreme

And if he really has no interest in it, why is he a conqueror?


----------



## trance (Oct 14, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Starkiller.
> 
> If it's a fact, then you're certainly more than welcome to prove it.  Not that I'm saying Roger isn't stronger than Shanks, but being Pirate King in an era Shanks wasn't in his prime doesn't necessarily mean Roger is a whole league above Shanks or anything to that effect.



I said "it might as well be". 

Roger was equal to Prime Whitebeard.

Shanks was equal to or weaker than Old Whitebeard.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

@ Kaiser.

I'm fairly certain that Blackbeard was talking about Whitebeard's territories and/or even position as Yonkou.  Plus, even if I agreed Shanks was referring to strength- which I genuinely don't- he could have also been referring to prime Whitebeard.

Shanks is conquering just by being a Yonkou.  Plus, not everyone that has King's Haki is trying to be Pirate King.

@ Starkiller.

Yeah I know, but my response is still the same.  Plus, you believe it to be so likely that it's a fact because of how you have interpreted the strength of certain characters.  So to you it may seem like a fact or very close to it, but to me it doesn't seem that way.  I do respect your views, though.

I believe (but could be wrong) that Shanks is at least equal to old/sick Whitebeard, if not stronger (I believe he's stronger).  That's not a fact by any means.  It's just my personal estimation/belief.


----------



## Whitebeard (Oct 14, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I understand the thought process of "I believe old/sick Whitebeard is the strongest until proven otherwise"





You can't even use a "characters can be wrong" argument for that one. It'd be the same as arguing that Luffy's real name is Jeff because you _feel_ that fits him more.

Whitebeard was the strongest, end of discussion.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

I'm not questioning that at some point in time, Whitebeard gained the reputation of being the World's Strongest Man.  I'm questioning whether or not that title includes Whitebeard's lessened strength and is verifiable as still standing (and by verifiable I mean the people who call him that have some point of comparison by which to say old/sick Whitebeard is still the strongest or if they're just calling him that because around 20 years ago he proved that and has since not been defeated).

It's not uncommon for authors to use such loopholes to hype more than one major character.  Bleach, Naruto, and Fairy Tail have all done it multiple times.  While I understand the position of "Well I'm going to believe old/sick Whitebeard is the strongest until proven otherwise", I see no reason to dismiss that the aforementioned possibility exists in One Piece as well.


----------



## trance (Oct 14, 2014)

Except it doesn't exist. Whitebeard was hyped as the strongest and died as the strongest. Your belief that Shanks was stronger will never be proven.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

Why couldn't it be proven at some point?

Can you prove that the possibility doesn't exist?  If so I will agree.


----------



## trance (Oct 14, 2014)

Because Oda says so.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

When did Oda say that he won't ever mention and/or demonstrate that Whitebeard's title was a reputation he gained around 20 years ago and with his lessened strength was equal to or weaker than Shanks?


----------



## trance (Oct 14, 2014)

Upon Whitebeard's introduction. He _personally introduces_ Whitebeard as the "World's Strongest Man", perfectly knowing that Shanks is alive.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

That doesn't mean it couldn't just be that it's a reputation he gained around 20 years ago and that Whitebeard's lessened strength either wasn't verifiable and/or they just wouldn't take that title away from him since being old/sick isn't his fault.

From a writer's perspective, Oda could use it as a loophole to hype both characters, which again isn't uncommon in fiction.

I reiterate that, again, I can understand giving old/sick Whitebeard the benefit of the doubt until Shanks being equal to or stronger than him is proven- but I don't think we should dismiss the possibility.


----------



## trance (Oct 14, 2014)

If he wasn't the strongest, _he wouldn't have been introduced by Oda himself as such_.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 14, 2014)

Unless Oda uses it as a loophole to hype both characters, which is possible and not uncommon in fiction.

Sarutobi was written to be the strongest Hokage of all time.  Kakashi stated that only Naruto has strong potential to surpass Minato.  Hashirama has been said to be the strongest Hokage of all time.  If any other Hokage was equal to or superior to Sarutobi, Kishimoto wouldn't have written him to be the strongest Hokage of all time.  If any other ninja was equal to or superior to Minato, Kishimoto wouldn't have written him to be the strongest ninja of all time.  If any other Hokage was equal to or superior to Hashirama, Kishimoto wouldn't have written him to be the strongest Hokage of all time.  If any other Shinigami was equal to or superior to Unohana and/or Kenpachi, Kubo wouldn't have written them to be the strongest Shinigamis.


----------



## barreltheif (Oct 14, 2014)

Naruto's just inconsistent. There wasn't a "loophole" or whatever. Kishi just retconned Hashirama's strength.

WB was introduced as the strongest man; he has consistently remained so for 500 chapters; he was restated to be the WSM by multiple characters; he was stated to be WB's only equal; he was shown to be the strongest man at MF. This isn't going to be retconned. Don't compare One Piece to Bleach or Naruto.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

The idea that One Piece isn't going to fall in the same line as other fictional series in that regard is speculative.  It's very possible that it will, which is my point here.

It's a common tool writers use to hype multiple characters, and there's nothing about it that wouldn't make sense.  So, doing that wouldn't be retcon on Oda's part.


----------



## Whitebeard (Oct 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I'm questioning whether or not that title includes Whitebeard's lessened strength and is verifiable as still standing


It is, Oda himself said so. You can question character quotes for various reasons but  is no such thing and is only strengthened by the various character quotes and feats of the character in question. You have no basis for your position at all other than a trend that happens in other manga, which is an _incredibly_ weak and silly argument to begin with. Ad Nauseam isn't gonna make it any less silly either.



barreltheif said:


> WB was introduced as the strongest man; he has consistently remained so for 500 chapters; he was restated to be the WSM by multiple characters; he was stated to be Roger's only equal; he was shown to be the strongest man at MF.


This sums it up pretty nicely. There is absolutely no reason to question Whitebeard's title so far


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

Again, I'm not questioning that at some point in time, that  gained that reputation.  I'm questioning whether or not his lessened strength was verifiable by those who would take away that title, and whether or not said people would take it away from him due to  being old/sick.

You said I have no basis, but I would argue that it being a common hype tool in fiction is a basis (I've also given other reasons).  You haven't really given a reason as to why 's title is immune to being a hype tool nor have you explained why it being common in fiction is silly (I named multiple specific examples), so you can't rightfully expect me to be convinced just because you personally don't believe it will ever be used as such.

I don't think I said anything about ad nauseam.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 15, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> WB was introduced as the strongest man; he has consistently remained so for 500 chapters; he was restated to be the WSM by multiple characters; he was stated to be *WB*'s only equal; he was shown to be the strongest man at MF.


Slight correction, you mean Roger, not Whitebeard.


Whitebeard said:


> This sums it up pretty nicely. There is absolutely no reason to question Whitebeard's title so far


Add that up with the fact that the WG and Sengoku kept tabs on all of the Yonko (they knew about Shanks meeting with Whitebeard before it even happened), and Whitebeard was still hailed as the strongest, and there you go.


----------



## Whitebeard (Oct 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> You said I have no basis but I would argue that it being a common hype tool in fiction is a basis


Which is the nearly same as having no basis at all. What happened in Naruto and Bleach (or other fiction) has no bearing on One Piece's storyline, saying otherwise is a dumbfounded argument.



Gohara said:


> (I've also given other reasons).


You haven't given any reasons other than "a trend in fiction" that provides a basis for your position



Gohara said:


> You haven't really given a reason as to why 's title is immune


I did, twice. You're completely disregarding actual manga facts with pure assumptions and using other stories as a base for why Whitebeard _could be_ weaker than character X. Why the title is immune? Because there's evidence, you lack any evidence _whatsoever_.

Ever heard of Burden of Proof? Yes, try and defend that claim of yours with _proof_ from the manga, any arguments that find their origin in other fiction are not _proof_.



Gohara said:


> so you can't rightfully expect me to be convinced just because you personally don't believe it will ever be used as such.


It's not that I deny the possibility, but I fail to see any reasonable arguments to defend that it.



Gohara said:


> don't think I said anything about ad nauseam.


Do you even know what Ad Nauseam is?



Gohara said:


> Yes, because that's Whitebeard's reputation, which again is likely a reputation he gained around 20 years ago.





Gohara said:


> I'm not questioning that at some point in time, Whitebeard gained the reputation of being the World's Strongest Man.





Gohara said:


> That doesn't mean it couldn't just be that it's a reputation he gained around 20 years ago





Gohara said:


> Again, I'm not questioning that at some point in time, that  gained that reputation.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

Whitebeard said:


> Which is the nearly same as having no basis at all. What happened in Naruto and Bleach (or other fiction) has no bearing on One Piece's storyline, saying otherwise is a dumbfounded argument.



Authors use that hype tool to allow them to hype multiple characters at different points in the story without making any of the characters look weak, and hopefully to avoid contradicting something they wrote previously.

It's often used as a hype tool because it's very effective.

Whether or not Oda will actually use it is 50/50, but it's a strong possibility, and because of that I'm going to consider it.  You don't have to.



Whitebeard said:


> You haven't given any reasons other than "a trend in fiction" that provides a basis for your position



???

I actually did also mention Shanks being the torch passer to Luffy.



Whitebeard said:


> I did, twice.



Saying that Whitebeard has the title of World's Strongest Man isn't a reason for it being immune.  Every example I listed could say the same, and yet they were not immune.



Whitebeard said:


> You're completely disregarding actual manga facts



I never said I'm disregarding Whitebeard's title.  I'm stating there's a possibility that the title was based on reputation and possibly wasn't verifiable as still standing.  It's a Manga fact that Whitebeard at some point gained that reputation and perhaps even as far as some characters knew (or didn't take away his title due to being old/sick not being his fault) was still the strongest.  How you apply that reputation isn't a Manga fact.



Whitebeard said:


> and using other stories as a base for why Whitebeard _could be_ weaker than character X.



I don't think I ever said it was any more than a "could be" situation, for now.



Whitebeard said:


> Ever heard of Burden of Proof? Yes, try and defend that claim of yours with _proof_ from the manga, any arguments that find their origin in other fiction are not _proof_.



I'm afraid that's not how burden of proof works.  I did not make a claim.  I was asked why I estimate Shanks to be as strong as I do, and I gave my reasoning, but made it clear that it's not a claim or fact or anything to that effect.  I've pretty much made it clear that my position here mostly consists of opinions and estimations.

If I had said something to the effect of "Old/Sick Whitebeard was definitely not the World's Strongest Man", then the burden of proof would be on me if I made the initial claim.  However, that's not what I said.  On the contrary, the burden of proof would be on those saying that Whitebeard was definitely still the strongest on a verifiable basis, and that him being old/sick was definitely included in that title.



Whitebeard said:


> It's not that I deny the possibility, but I fail to see any reasonable arguments to defend that it.



Saying that it's dumbfounded to seriously consider it isn't much different than denying that it's a possibility.

Okay, but you disagreeing that there's good enough reason to consider it a legitimate possibility doesn't mean that it isn't a legitimate possibility.



Whitebeard said:


> Do you even know what Ad Nauseam is?



Yep, but I'm not sure how what you copied and pasted demonstrates it.  I've had to repeat what I've said multiple times because I'm debating with multiple different people, and because it is important to reiterate that point since it appears as if some believe that I am denying that Whitebeard even had that reputation to begin with.


----------



## trance (Oct 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Unless Oda uses it as a loophole to hype both characters, which is possible and not uncommon in fiction.
> 
> Sarutobi was written to be the strongest Hokage of all time.  Kakashi stated that only Naruto has strong potential to surpass Minato.  Hashirama has been said to be the strongest Hokage of all time.  If any other Hokage was equal to or superior to Sarutobi, Kishimoto wouldn't have written him to be the strongest Hokage of all time.  If any other ninja was equal to or superior to Minato, Kishimoto wouldn't have written him to be the strongest ninja of all time.  If any other Hokage was equal to or superior to Hashirama, Kishimoto wouldn't have written him to be the strongest Hokage of all time.  If any other Shinigami was equal to or superior to Unohana and/or Kenpachi, Kubo wouldn't have written them to be the strongest Shinigamis.



You do know what a "retcon" is, right?


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

Yep.  If you acknowledge that authors use the aforementioned hype tool, why is it impossible or even unlikely that Oda will do the same?  Again, I understand the position of "That's possible, but until old/sick Whitebeard is proven not to be the strongest, I'll stick with old/sick Whitebeard being the strongest", but I just don't see a reason to inherently dismiss the contrary being possible or even to say that it's unlikely.


----------



## Luke (Oct 15, 2014)

Saying you think Character A is stronger than Character B because there is a chance the author randomly retcons the power levels he has set up makes no sense.


----------



## barreltheif (Oct 15, 2014)

I don't think you understand how retcons work. Kishimoto wasn't _planning _on first making Hiruzen the strongest and then later retconning it, making Hashirama the strongest.
He changed his mind in the middle of the manga, rendering it inconsistent. It was bad writing. There's no reason to think that Oda will do the same with WB, given that WB has consistently remained the strongest man for 500 chapters. It's _vaguely possible_, but it's too remote a possibility to be worth taking into consideration.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

@ Luke.

I didn't necessarily say that Oda would retcon Whitebeard's power.  Retconning is altering a previously established fact.  Oda using a loophole would allow him to hype both characters with everything still making sense.  I also wouldn't say it would be random.  It would be a pretty clever usage of a hype tool that most, if not all other authors of the same or a similar genre use.

Plus, I didn't say that Shanks is stronger than old/sick Whitebeard.  I said that it's a possibility.

@ barrel.

Like I said, Oda wouldn't be retconning in this case.  It wouldn't be bad writing, because it would still make sense.  There doesn't have to be a reason to think Oda *will* use that hype tool.  There just has to be a reason to think that he *could* use that hype tool in my case and a reason to believe that he *won't* in your case.


----------



## Luke (Oct 15, 2014)

Still, saying Oda will use a "clever loophole" at some point in the future to justify your beliefs is highly unlikely.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

I didn't necessarily say he will.  I just said that he could.  Do I think he will?  Probably, because Shanks- and not old/sick Whitebeard- was chosen to pass the torch to Luffy.  However, I didn't say that he will.  Me bringing up the commonly used hype tool isn't to justify that my belief is true.  It's to justify it as a legitimate possibility.  My point here was never to claim I have proof, nor was it ever to convince anyone that it will happen.  I'm merely responding to claims that the idea of it is impossible or very unlikely.


----------



## trance (Oct 15, 2014)

Shanks was chosen because Roger saw incredible potential in him of course. Does that translate to being stronger than the undisputed "World's Strongest Man" who rampaged at Marine HQ, which is itself one of the "Three Great Powers"? No.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

I would say it translates into that being possible.  I didn't say that it was undisputed, though.


----------



## trance (Oct 15, 2014)

He'd only be as strong or stronger than Roger if had potential to be Pirate King, which, so far, he doesn't seem to have. Again, incredible potential =/= Pirate King level potential.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

What makes you say Shanks for sure doesn't have the strength to be Pirate King?  Shanks doesn't seem to be interested in being Pirate King.


----------



## trance (Oct 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Why doesn't Shanks have the strength to be Pirate King?  Shanks doesn't seem to be interested in being Pirate King.



Care to point out why you think he doesn't want to be Pirate King?


----------



## Gohara (Oct 15, 2014)

He should have already seen One Piece or at least knows where it is.  I doubt he would care to find it given that, and plus any Yonkou with that level of knowledge would likely have gotten it by now.  On top of all that, Shanks hasn't expressed any interest in One Piece, and has pretty much been seen just relaxing every time we've seen him instead of making a serious effort to accomplish something of that sort.


----------



## trance (Oct 15, 2014)

Roger was still alive and hence, still Pirate King when Shanks was there. Who's to say that Shanks doesn't want to obtain it for himself and become the new Pirate King? Plus, even if knowledge, with the presence of someone like Kaido, it would be incredibly difficult to press on.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 16, 2014)

Yes, but that was long before Shanks was in his prime.

Shanks hasn't shown any indication of wanting to be Pirate King, and almost every time we've seen him so far he's just been relaxing and not visibly trying to accomplish becoming Pirate King.  Plus, since he likely already knows what One Piece is, the adventure of finding it likely isn't as enticing as it is for many other pirates.  It also seems like he wants to see Luffy become the Pirate King.

Shanks would likely have to be significantly weaker than every other Yonkou if he has that advantage and still isn't Pirate King.


----------



## TheWiggian (Oct 16, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Yes, but that was long before Shanks was in his prime.
> 
> Shanks hasn't shown any indication of wanting to be Pirate King, and almost every time we've seen him so far he's just been relaxing and not visibly trying to accomplish becoming Pirate King.  Plus, since he likely already knows what One Piece is, the adventure of finding it likely isn't as enticing as it is for many other pirates.  It also seems like he wants to see Luffy become the Pirate King.
> 
> Shanks would likely have to be significantly weaker than every other Yonkou if he has that advantage and still isn't Pirate King.




This whole discussion makes no sense. Why is Shanks a pirate then
, he saw everything when he was on Rogers ship. That argument is so solid that theres nothing to debate about.


----------



## trance (Oct 17, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Shanks would likely have to be significantly weaker than every other Yonkou if he has that advantage and still isn't Pirate King.



Maybe it's because, oh I don't know, the other Emperors are just as powerful as he is? Or the fact there are other powerful pirates in the New World as well as the presence of the Marines and Warlords?


----------



## Dr. White (Oct 17, 2014)

Tea said:


> Location: Dressrosa, starting distance is 50 meters.
> Intel: Full.
> *Mindset: Bloodlusted.*
> Restrictions: None.





> Battle 1: SH Crew plus Law.


Law takes Robin and Luffy and Shambles away while Zoro and sanji get one shotted to allow them an escape attempt. Robot Franky gets carved like an aluminum can, and the rest of the crew get annihilated but live on through the D Bro's. In other words. GG.



> Battle 2: Pre TS Warlords (without Mihawk).


Uhm Gonna go with Ray mid Diff. Once Dofla, Kuma, and Hancock go down he cruises. Based on how futile MArco/Vista were against an enraged Akainu, I'm gonna assume Prime Ray can perform similarly vs high high tiers.


> Battle 3: Marco and Jozu.


If this is a gauntlet he definetely loses here because his opponents are durabilty/stamina freaks. I think Prime Ray can edge it out high - extreme diff if not a gauntlet.



> Battle 4: Akainu.
> Battle 5: Shanks.


I see Prime Shanks and Akainu being on about equal footing with Prime Ray. Could go either way extreme diff either way.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 17, 2014)

@ Wiggian.

Not all pirates want to be Pirate King.  I could just as easily ask why Whitebeard is a pirate.  

@ Starkiller.

Simply being as powerful as he is likely wouldn't be enough.  Shanks would still have the significant leg up due to the aforementioned advantage.  Aside from it being unlikely that Shanks is tied as being the weakest Yonkou, he would have to be significantly weaker than them.


----------



## TheWiggian (Oct 18, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Wiggian.
> 
> Not all pirates want to be Pirate King.  I could just as easily ask why Whitebeard is a pirate.



While WB is from Rogers era he got no reason to become the PK. Shanks became a real pirate after Roger died. Simple.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 18, 2014)

I don't see what Whitebeard being from Roger's era has to do with whether or not he wants to become Pirate King.

Shanks already was a real pirate before Roger died.


----------



## TheWiggian (Oct 19, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I don't see what Whitebeard being from Roger's era has to do with whether or not he wants to become Pirate King.



Then ur blind or just a shitty troll who spams in every thread nowadays.




> Shanks already was a real pirate before Roger died.



And still got motivated by Roger like all other ppl that became pirates and wanted the big treasure.


----------



## Whitebeard (Oct 19, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I've pretty much made it clear that my position here mostly consists of opinions and estimations.



Mostly? It isn't supported by any manga facts, not even that, _it's plainly contradicted_. Your opinion is your own, but you can't possibly believe anyone to take it serious.



Gohara said:


> but it's a strong possibility


Based on what? Trends in other manga don't count here.



Gohara said:


> I actually did also mention Shanks being the torch passer to Luffy.


The reason why one would consider that as evidence for Shanks being the strongest is what? Yeah, trends in other manga.



Gohara said:


> Saying that Whitebeard has the title of World's Strongest Man isn't a reason for it being immune.  Every example I listed could say the same, and yet they were not immune.


Every example from other manga? That means jack shit. The reason why it is immune is that it's supported by actual manga evidence and that it isn't a fallible character quote. *A potential retcon in the future supported by trends in other manga is no argument* , just stop.



Gohara said:


> I'm afraid that's not how burden of proof works.  I did not make a claim.


_Burden of proof or onus (probandi) is the obligation on a party in an epistemic dispute to provide sufficient warrant for their position._

"Shanks is strongest.." is a claim, yet you have no _proof_. So any attempt at you defending your position should stop at "it's only my opinion" rather than rambling about trends in other manga.



Gohara said:


> If I had said something to the effect of "Old/Sick Whitebeard was definitely not the World's Strongest Man", then the burden of proof would be on me if I made the initial claim.  However, that's not what I said.  On the contrary, the burden of proof would be on those saying that Whitebeard was definitely still the strongest on a verifiable basis, and that him being old/sick was definitely included in that title.


You really have no clue, do you?



Gohara said:


> Saying that it's dumbfounded to seriously consider it isn't much different than denying that it's a possibility.


And yet it is different



Gohara said:


> Yep, but I'm not sure how what you copied and pasted demonstrates it.


Sigh. _Argumentum ad nauseam or argument from repetition or argumentum ad infinitum is an argument made repeatedly (possibly by different people) until nobody cares to discuss it any more_, you keep bringing up "torch passer"/stuff that happened in other fiction and people keep telling you that it isn't really a valid argument but you keep repeating it _to the point of nausea_.


----------



## Gohara (Oct 20, 2014)

@ Wiggian.

Well, you're more than welcome to explain what Whitebeard being from Roger's era has to do with whether or not he wants to become Pirate King then.

Again, though, not every pirate wants to be Pirate King.  Shanks may have been inspired by Roger, but that doesn't mean the former wants to be Pirate King.

@ Whitebeard.

-Yep.  While a lot of what I have said in this debate is opinions and estimations, not everything I've said is an opinion and/or an estimation.  However, it's true that nothing from One Piece's Manga clearly demonstrates that Shanks is as strong as I estimate him to be.  My concern isn't necessarily whether or not someone agrees with me.  I was just responding to the idea that my estimation is factually wrong.  If you just want to say you disagree, I have no issue with that.

-It's not necessarily just a trend.  It's an effective writing tool that allows a writer to hype multiple characters.  I don't see why that's not relevant, though.  Not to mention the same thing could have just been said in every instance in which writers have used it.  So clearly simply believing that a writer won't use that hype tool doesn't necessarily mean that they won't.

-Well not necessarily just that.  Shanks being the torch passer to Luffy is a major role.  It means Luffy likely won't surpass Shanks until the final Arc, which may be the power up that makes him stronger than Roger.

-The Manga evidence are just quotes.  We have no evidence beyond that to say that old/sick Whitebeard is stronger than Shanks.  I would also argue that some of the examples you can find in fiction have other evidence that suggest the character being hyped as the strongest is the strongest.

-A claim is:

"an assertion of the truth of something"

Similarly, burden of proof means:

"the obligation to prove one's assertion."

Saying that I estimate Shanks to be the strongest pirate 2 years ago and in the current timeline isn't an assertion, and thus I did not make a claim, and as such the burden of proof isn't on me.

Saying things like "Shanks is definitely not stronger than old/sick Whitebeard", and things like "Shanks is definitely not capable of at least giving Roger high to extremely high difficulty in a fight" are assertions.

If someone states that my opinion is factually wrong, I'm going to ask them to prove that it is.

-Okay, but if it's barely different, then you can't rightfully expect me to be convinced just because you personally don't believe that it will ever be used as such.

-That assumes that I'm not explaining why I disagree that the Shanks passing the torch to Luffy point is invalid.  Furthermore, as I said, I've had to repeat what I've said multiple times because I'm debating with multiple different people.  There have also been times where a point that I made was taken out of context and/or not all of the context of what I said was quoted.  Given all that and that this debate hasn't been going on for that long, it's not really argumentum ad nauseam.


----------



## Tainted Sun (Oct 20, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I'm not questioning that at some point in time, Whitebeard gained the reputation of being the World's Strongest Man.  I'm questioning whether or not that title includes Whitebeard's lessened strength and is verifiable as still standing (and by verifiable I mean the people who call him that have some point of comparison by which to say old/sick Whitebeard is still the strongest or if they're just calling him that because around 20 years ago he proved that and has since not been defeated).
> 
> It's not uncommon for authors to use such loopholes to hype more than one major character.  Bleach, Naruto, and Fairy Tail have all done it multiple times.  While I understand the position of "Well I'm going to believe old/sick Whitebeard is the strongest until proven otherwise", I see no reason to dismiss that the aforementioned possibility exists in One Piece as well.



Even after being stabbed by Squardo, Sengoku still claimed that Whitebeard was still the strongest man in the world.

Why do you think Shanks is stronger than Whitebeard anyways? 

What other authors have done is not relevant to Oda at all.


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## Gohara (Oct 20, 2014)

I've already explained my points on Whitebeard's title, and have answered why I estimate Shanks to be stronger than old/sick Whitebeard or at least around as strong as him.  I can link you to the exact posts later, but for now I'm heading out.

Why aren't other writers employing writing techniques relevant?  As Oda is himself a writer, he's not immune to using hype tools.  I can understand waiting until he proves it to agree, but again I don't see why it should be dismissed as a possibility.


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## SsjAzn (Oct 23, 2014)

Tea said:


> Location: Dressrosa, starting distance is 50 meters.
> Intel: Full.
> Mindset: Bloodlusted.
> Restrictions: None.
> ...



Battle 1: wins with little or no difficulty
Battle 2: wins with mid difficulty
Battle 3: Marco and Jozu wins with high difficulty
Battle 4: wins with extreme difficulty
Battle 5: Can go either way


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