# Hit vs. Pre-Crisis Superman



## Dark Evangel (Dec 17, 2016)

Who wins this?

Pre-Crisis Superman doesn't get his sword for this fight and no BFR allowed.


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## The Runner (Dec 17, 2016)

Hit wouldn't land a single punch on Silver Age Superman


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 17, 2016)

Pre-Crisis Supes is multi-galaxy+ to universal and septillions of times the speed of light.

Hit might have higher DC and durability but Pre-Crisis Supes is way faster.


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## Mabel Gleeful (Dec 17, 2016)

Speed doesn't matter when all Hit has to do is stop time. Since we know he can take Supes' punches, he simply needs to activate his Time Skip and then kill him like he did with Goku in the recent episode.


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 17, 2016)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> Speed doesn't matter when all Hit has to do is stop time. Since we know he can take Supes' punches, he simply needs to activate his Time Skip and then kill him like he did with Goku in the recent episode.


Not unless super blitz him before he could timestop.


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 17, 2016)

Make it speed equalize Op


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## Mabel Gleeful (Dec 17, 2016)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Not unless super blitz him before he could timestop.


And again, he can take Superman's punches. And not merely survive them, but outright tank them. Time Skip, then pressure points and Superman loses.


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## Reznor (Dec 17, 2016)

Could Superman break out of timestop the same as SSBKK Goku? 
We don't really know how fast Goku was going unless you calc stack and it's hard to tell if that was a raw speed feat or not.
Considering that Hit could still fight SSBKK Goku outside of timestop, it's probably more than just speed feat and probably counter hax (or else Goku should be destroying Hit outside of his timestop)

If Superman can be timestopped, it's probably over for him if speed is his only edge.


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## Mabel Gleeful (Dec 17, 2016)

Yeah, the explanation for Goku resisting Time Skip is very wonky - or rather, not even explained at all. I chalk it to Goku rending space and time with his ki the same way Vegeta did when he destroyed ROSAT. Doesn't mean he can manipulate time like Hit does, but it still means he can resist time manipulation.


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## Empress Angeline (Dec 17, 2016)

Post crisis has broken out of timestops through sheer speed and pre crisis>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Post crisis


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Dec 17, 2016)

Actually in the manga Whis stated timestop wasn't working on SSB Goku because he was more powerful than Hit.


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## The Runner (Dec 17, 2016)

I thought that was just a time skip?

Anyway. Pre-Crisis can Time-Travel, Hypnotize, Shape Shift, and is just _way way way *faster.
*_
He's literally too fast for Hit to initiate timestop.


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## Galactus The Destroyer (Dec 17, 2016)

Has anyone seen the latest super episode? I don't think speed even matters against whatever hax hit has right now

Obliterates blue goku like he is fodder or something


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## The Runner (Dec 17, 2016)

Intangibility ain't nothing when he can't activate in time


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## Random Passerby (Dec 17, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Intangibility ain't nothing when he can't activate in time


Can't Hit just tank Supes punches because of his durability?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blocky (Dec 17, 2016)

Well pre-crisis supers did destroyed a object that was tanking the big bang with a punch.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Runner (Dec 17, 2016)

Random Passerby said:


> Can't Hit just tank Supes punches because of his durability?


Pre-Crisis destroyed a machine that could travel through the Big Bang unscathed.

Also, he can just use his Time Travel and BFR the guy

Also, Hit is essentially a statue to Superman. A few more hits than usual would do the trick


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 17, 2016)

Random Passerby said:


> Can't Hit just tank Supes punches because of his durability?


They're about the same level roughly with Hit edging it out probably.

Supes throws universal+ punches at septillions of times the speed of light and can dodge anything Hit throws at him.


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## The Runner (Dec 17, 2016)

Blocky said:


> Well pre-crisis supers did destroyed a object that was tanking the big bang with a punch.


ninja'd

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## Empress Angeline (Dec 17, 2016)

Superman outran an infinite distance


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## Blocky (Dec 17, 2016)

The only possible way hit can win if speed is equalize


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 17, 2016)

Supes might still have the hax advantage.

Jogga is bringing up some good points in his favor.


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## The Runner (Dec 17, 2016)

Emperorofliberty said:


> Superman outran an infinite distance


DC characters dude...

Also, it's more like going so fast that he was literally going to break the ultimate barrier of all and see heaven.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 17, 2016)

Listen Dragon Ball fans, there isn't a single character that can stand toe to toe with Pre-crisis supes. This guy moved an entire galaxy worth of planets casually.

This guy gets whatever power that may suit him at the time.

As for time stop the fear that give Superman the Big Bang durability was also a time bomb that was going destroy multiple timelines across the multiverse so yeah


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 17, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> DC characters dude...
> 
> Also, it's more like going so fast that he was literally going to break the ultimate barrier of all and see heaven.


I have wondered a bit about this feat.

Is the Multiversity Map showing where Heaven's at applicable here?

If so, *damn. *That might be the most ridiculous speed feat he's done.


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## The Runner (Dec 17, 2016)

Superman flew to another Universe in just a few seconds.


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## The Runner (Dec 17, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I have wondered a bit about this feat.
> 
> Is the Multiversity Map showing where Heaven's at applicable here?
> 
> If so, *damn. *That might be the most ridiculous speed feat he's done.


Specter literally had to stop the fucker before he saw Heaven


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## The Runner (Dec 17, 2016)

Supergirl was unconscious so she there was no risk of her looking at heaven


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 17, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Specter literally had to stop the fucker before he saw Heaven


So he made it to the Sphere of the Gods or was going to but Spectre stopped him?

Now that statement about breaking the bonds of infinity makes a little more sense


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## The Runner (Dec 17, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> So he made it to the Sphere of the Gods or was going to but Spectre stopped him?
> 
> Now that statement about breaking the bonds of infinity makes a little more sense


Was going to, just a few seconds or less and he almost would have reached it like Kara did


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 17, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Was going to, just a few seconds or less and he almost would have reached it like Kara did


That's fucking crazy but it's most likely unquantifiable.


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## The Runner (Dec 17, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Specter literally had to stop the fucker before he saw Heaven


Although I don't trust to use the map. It's only created Decades after the feat, and at a time where Silver Age didn't exist at all.


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## The Runner (Dec 17, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> That's fucking crazy but it's most likely unquantifiable.


That's right.

Honestly, infinity makes sense to a point.

If someone wants to scale the map like DB fans did with their map, they are welcome to try


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## whatsausername (Dec 17, 2016)

Pc supes is just too damn op, only one db character should be able to put up a fight.


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 17, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Actually in the manga Whis stated timestop wasn't working on SSB Goku because he was more powerful than Hit.



Manga Hit is a bitch tho, anime Hit one-shots SSJB Goku

I´ll go with Hit on the fight


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## Gordo solos (Dec 17, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Listen Dragon Ball fans, there isn't a single character that can stand toe to toe with Pre-crisis supes.


Zeno might be able to do it


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## Divell (Dec 17, 2016)

I'm gonna go with the guy that can shot himself from his hand.


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## Galactus The Destroyer (Dec 17, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> Zeno might be able to do it


Hit probably does too

Tbh only thing supes has going for him in this fight is speed
How does he handle things like intang and the time hax?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 17, 2016)

Galactus The Destroyer said:


> Hit probably does too
> 
> Tbh only thing supes has going for him in this fight is speed
> How does he handle things like intang and the time hax?


He can go intangible himself and he can time travel and BFR Hit.


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## Galactus The Destroyer (Dec 17, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> He can go intangible himself and he can time travel and BFR Hit.


BFR is battlefield removal right? I never imagined superman needing to use that on somebody

 Though we don't know much about Hit's new intangibility, but I suspect it could be related to his time abilities somehow

As for the speed thing, vegeta did mention something along the lines of "He is fast, but his speed is not enough" and got effectively blitzed regardless of apparent speed advantage because of time-leap, though you said supes has similiar abilities, so I don't know


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Dec 17, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> Zeno might be able to do it



I also see no way for him to beat Zamasu.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 17, 2016)

Galactus The Destroyer said:


> BFR is battlefield removal right? I never imagined superman needing to use that on somebody
> 
> Though we don't know much about Hit's new intangibility, but I suspect it could be related to his time abilities somehow
> 
> As for the speed thing, vegeta did mention something along the lines of "He is fast, but his speed is not enough" and got effectively blitzed regardless of apparent speed advantage because of time-leap, though you said supes has similiar abilities, so I don't know


The speed difference between Supes and Hit is immense. It's septillions vs quintillions and that's quite a huge gap. Supes can make it to Hit and deliver universe level punches faster than he can react. Hit's getting pummeled millions of times faster than he can move.


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## Galactus The Destroyer (Dec 17, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> I also see no way for him to beat Zamasu.



 SSG Goku's punches were able to nearly destroy the universe
SSB is stronger than SSG
Old hit was stronger than SSB kaioken x10
New hit one shotted post training SSB goku
Hit might be curbed in the next episode by Beerus(implied)
Beerus gets one shotted by whis
Whis in turn gets one shotted by his father
all of them are specks of dust compared to Zeno

 Powerscaling imo


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 17, 2016)

You guys are assuming that Superman can hit millions of times with the power of the big bang without ever getting exhausted?


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## Galactus The Destroyer (Dec 17, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> The speed difference between Supes and Hit is immense. It's septillions vs quintillions and that's quite a huge gap. Supes can make it to Hit and deliver universe level punches faster than he can react. Hit's getting pummeled millions of times faster than he can move.



I'm well aware of the speed advantage, though it's been implied if your stronger than someone, you can overcome their hax, atleast in terms of the DB verse.

 is supers stronger than hit in terms of raw power? I'm not upto date on pc supes, but whenever I hear about him, its all about the ridiculous speed he has


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 17, 2016)

Galactus The Destroyer said:


> I'm well aware of the speed advantage, though it's been implied if your stronger than someone, you can overcome their hax, atleast in terms of the DB verse.
> 
> is supers stronger than hit in terms of raw power? I'm not upto date on pc supes, but whenever I hear about him, its all about the ridiculous speed he has


He tanked a Big Bang and destroyed a machine that tanked the same one. He's universal+ in strength and durability.


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## Dark Evangel (Dec 17, 2016)

I remove BFR in the OP so that we get an actual fight.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 17, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> You guys are assuming that Superman can hit millions of times with the power of the big bang without ever getting exhausted?


Yes because he is super man a guy powered by the sun, who can travel across the multiverse without stopping for a glass of water


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## Solar (Dec 17, 2016)

Big Bang is not considered universal here. js


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 17, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> You guys are assuming that Superman can hit millions of times with the power of the big bang without ever getting exhausted?


Sir Jogga will probably correct me on this but to the best of my knowledge, stamina isn't an issue with Pre-Crisis Superman. Superman has an ON and OFF state with his solar reserves IIRC. When he's ON, he essentially has perpetual stamina.


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 17, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Yes because he is super man a guy powered by the sun, who can travel across the multiverse without stopping for a glass of water





Blakk Jakk said:


> Sir Jogga will probably correct me on this but to the best of my knowledge, stamina isn't an issue with Pre-Crisis Superman. Superman has an ON and OFF state with his solar reserves IIRC. When he's ON, he essentially has perpetual stamina.



It's not about stamina it's that you guys are saying that Superman can repeat a feat he struggle his ass to do a million times over just because he is faster

PS he basically died while doing that feat but came back because of lol plot

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Unlucky13 (Dec 17, 2016)

I'd go for PC Superman. That's some really old age OP shit right there.


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## The Runner (Dec 17, 2016)

Frederica Bernkastel said:


> Big Bang is not considered universal here. js


From the DC universe tho? It essentially is.


Blakk Jakk said:


> Sir Jogga will probably correct me on this but to the best of my knowledge, stamina isn't an issue with Pre-Crisis Superman. Superman has an ON and OFF state with his solar reserves IIRC. When he's ON, he essentially has perpetual stamina.


Stamina is as much an issue as you make of it.

That is to say, none at all. For Superman it's as inconsistent as his powers are in that era. He's generally as high on stamina as his strength.



Worldbreaker said:


> It's not about stamina it's that you guys are saying that Superman can repeat a feat he struggle his ass to do a million times over just because he is faster
> 
> PS he basically died while doing that feat but came back because of lol plot


Good enough to still Time Travel. It's not that he was injured, it's only the pressure he was worried about. There wasn't a single bruise in his body when he came back

*Edit: And light. He was worried that the light of the Big Bang might blind him. That's kind of it, really*.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 17, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> It's not about stamina it's that you guys are saying that Superman can repeat a feat he struggle his ass to do a million times over just because he is faster
> 
> PS he basically died while doing that feat but came back because of lol plot


He didn't die just was scattered across the time line


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## Perpetrator Rex (Dec 17, 2016)

Just throwing this out there, a character who can tank universal or greater attacks would not be hurt by an attack that is at or around big bang level. They might not even feel it. The Big Bang is galactic in power.


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## Solar (Dec 17, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> From the DC universe tho? It essentially is.



from the dc who gives a shit


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 17, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Just throwing this out there, a character who can tank universal or greater attacks would not be hurt by an attack that is at or around big bang level. They might not even feel it. The Big Bang is galactic in power.


Galactic in power hold the hell up, i like to see the proof of that because TTGL gets its universal dura from absorbing a big bang


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 17, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Galactic in power hold the hell up, i like to see the proof of that because TTGL gets its universal dura from absorbing a big bang


Not to mention the Pre-Crisis DCU could be the same size as the Post-Crisis DCU which is hundreds of trillions of light years in size. That's well above multi galay or even universe level if it applies.


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 17, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Good enough to still Time Travel. It's not that he was injured, it's only the pressure he was worried about. There wasn't a single bruise in his body when he came back
> 
> *Edit: And light. He was worried that the light of the Big Bang might blind him. That's kind of it, really*.


But he did struggle he even wonders if he could do it and of course you won't see a bruise he came back from energy, also they are pre-crisis comics in those times they never shown damage not even when the character "dies" or gets defeated, I don't remember one time a pre-crisis hero showing any damage aside a purple eye, hell even seeing torn uniforms is something not common

Unlike today you can see the characters bleeding even when he's not supposed to


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## Solar (Dec 17, 2016)

i don't see what's so complicated about big bang not being universe-level

it's not 

the end


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## The Runner (Dec 17, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> But he did struggle he even wonders if he could do it and of course you won't see a bruise he came back from energy, also they are pre-crisis comics in those times they never shown damage not even when the character "dies" or gets defeated, I don't remember one time a pre-crisis hero showing any damage aside a purple eye, hell even seeing torn uniforms is something not common
> 
> Unlike today you can see the characters bleeding even when he's not supposed to


It's not just that. It's also the fact that the thing that was holding him back was the pressure of said Big Bang, not that it was killing him. It's more like a car being tied to a tree. Even so. There wasn't any real problem when it came to destroying the actual machine.

And relegating it to a trope isn't going to work. He was genuinely fine over all, when all was set and done.


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## Montanz (Dec 18, 2016)

Why shouldn it be though?


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

Frederica Bernkastel said:


> i don't see what's so complicated about big bang not being universe-level
> 
> it's not
> 
> the end


It is just because you don't want it be means your opinions holds any ground.


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## Montanz (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> snip



I though TTGL was universal because it matched the anti-spiral in power and the latters death resulted in the destruction of his universe-sized dimension.

As for the the Infinity big bang storm, that shit was calced and came out as bajillions of times stronger than the mass-energy of the universe.


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## Solar (Dec 18, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Why shouldn it be though?





The Mad King said:


> It is just because you don't want it be means your opinions holds any ground.



Universe-level means destroying space (in the obd). You're not tanking the the destruction of space as the big bang rolls past your super-stationary space. Space is just rolling past you and the matter inside is what is actually hitting you (money that that is what this big bang feat actually is as 99% of them are) Thus it isn't universe-level no matter how big the universe is.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

Montanz said:


> I though TTGL was universal because it matched the anti-spiral in power and the latters death resulted in the destruction of his universe-sized dimension.
> 
> As for the the Infinity big bang storm, that shit was calced and came out as bajillions of times stronger than the mass-energy of the universe.


Excuse me if I laugh at any attempt of you guys trying to calculate the Big Bang and down play the expansion of the universe.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

Frederica Bernkastel said:


> Universe-level means destroying space (in the obd). You're not tanking the the destruction of space as the big bang rolls past your super-stationary space. Space is just rolling past you and the matter inside is what is actually hitting you (money that that is what this big bang feat actually is as 99% of them are) Thus it isn't universe-level no matter how big the universe is.


Sigh

The bomb was a reality Big Bang bomb that was also going to destroy the timeline. Maybe actually read the feat you're trying to downplay?

Secondly I don't think you grasp what exactly is the Big Bang.

I mean you DB rubes will downplay and wank away. Downplaying silver age supes rotfl

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 18, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> It's not just that. It's also the fact that the thing that was holding him back was the pressure of said Big Bang, not that it was killing him. It's more like a car being tied to a tree. Even so. There wasn't any real problem when it came to destroying the actual machine.
> 
> And relegating it to a trope isn't going to work. He was genuinely fine over all, when all was set and done.



Again he came back from energy, what did you expect? for him to come back thowing up in pain?


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## Montanz (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Sigh


His argument makes sense for an actual big bang though, maybe not in this specific instance.


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## Solar (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Sigh
> 
> The bomb was a reality Big Bang bomb that was also going to destroy the timeline. Maybe actually read the feat you're trying to downplay?



Wasn't commenting on the feat. I said tanking the big bang isn't universe-level. Did you think I missed where you mentioned the underlined the first time? No, I don't lack reading comprehension or critical thinking skills like you do.

Like what is this?

"Tanking the big bang isn't universe-level."
"wtf do you mean destroying a timeline isn't universe-level??????"

Why are comic readers lacking in reading comprehension? This is what happens when you read comics.



> Secondly I don't think you grasp what exactly is the Big Bang.
> 
> I mean you DB rubes will downplay and wank away. Downplaying silver age supes rotfl



i know what the big bang is. ty

lol me a db rube

Whatever makes you feel comfortable. I might as well just say you're a DC wanker and leave it at that since that's what you're known for. But you don't need to worry about it. I'll definitely keep on with my perpetual DB wanking.


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 18, 2016)

Emperorofliberty said:


> Superman outran an infinite distance





Sir Jogga said:


> DC characters dude...
> 
> Also, it's more like going so fast that he was literally going to break the ultimate barrier of all and see heaven.





Blakk Jakk said:


> I have wondered a bit about this feat.
> 
> Is the Multiversity Map showing where Heaven's at applicable here?
> 
> If so, *damn. *That might be the most ridiculous speed feat he's done.



How far along the continuity was this feat?  Depending on when, then the "bonds of infinity" look like and are most likely the boundaries of his home universe.  In other words, Superman moved fast enough to exit his own Universe.  

Because IIRC, it was not until the Flashes met that the Multiverse was a thing in DC Comics.


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## XImpossibruX (Dec 18, 2016)

As much as Pre-Crisis Supes is fucking insane, have to side with Hit on this one. 

The tiers in SSB are so above universe level because of Toei's inability to grasp reasonable power progression. BoS Super had SSG Goku BoS outputting universe destroying shit with his punches, as he punched out Beerus's energy ball that would destroy the universe. And we all know Hit is way above that. 

I would argue that Pre-Crisis Supes could resist the time-stop, considering he broke time n' space with pure speed. But the DC and Durability gap would be too wide, despite Supes winning the speed game. 

Just my opinion tho. If you gave Supes Sword of Superman, I could see him taking it. Or argue that he comes up with a random power on the fly and just wins


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 18, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> How far along the continuity was this feat?  Depending on when, then the "bonds of infinity" look like and are most likely the boundaries of his home universe.  In other words, Superman moved fast enough to exit his own Universe.
> 
> Because IIRC, it was not until the Flashes met that the Multiverse was a thing in DC Comics.


This was Bronze Age and it took place in the 80s.

Flash discovered his E2 counterpart in the 60s and Supes met his E2 counterpart just before the end of the Silver Age.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

Frederica Bernkastel said:


> Wasn't commenting on the feat. I said tanking the big bang isn't universe-level. Did you think I missed where you mentioned the underlined the first time? No, I don't lack reading comprehension or critical thinking skills like you do.
> 
> Like what is this?
> 
> ...


Again I like you to show me the calculation that proves on a scientific level the Big Bang is galactic so I can laugh it.


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## xenos5 (Dec 18, 2016)

Avoiding this confusing argument about the DC of the big bang... assuming Supes does get universe level+ DC from breaking an object that has universe level durability... would that really be enough?

Hit should be more casually into the universe+ range. Base Goku with God Ki is universe+ due to destroying the combined attack that was greater than the one Beerus has nullfied earlier in their fight that was going to destroy the universe. He's more casually into universe+ range with ascending ssj forms and even more so with SSB, same with SSB KKx10. Hit after evolving throughout his fight with Goku (and not even taking his killing techniques into account) is on par or above SSB KKx10 Goku. He's unquantifiably above universe+ to a pretty high degree or you could say very casually universe+. That's different from just only reaching universe+ like PC Supes does.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Dec 18, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> As much as Pre-Crisis Supes is fucking insane, have to side with Hit on this one.
> 
> *The tiers in SSB are so above universe level because of Toei's inability to grasp reasonable power progression. BoS Super had SSG Goku BoS outputting universe destroying shit with his punches, as he punched out Beerus's energy ball that would destroy the universe. And we all know Hit is way above that.*
> 
> ...



You pretty much ninja'd me with this post XD.


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## Solar (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Again I like you to show me the calculation that proves on a scientific level the Big Bang is galactic so I can laugh it.



It doesn't fit with the current definition of universe-level. Thus it isn't. That's it. No calculation.

If you're thirsty for calculations, though, I guess I can scrounge one up for you.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

Frederica Bernkastel said:


> It doesn't fit with the current definition of universe-level. Thus it isn't. That's it. No calculation.
> 
> If you're thirsty for calculations, though, I guess I can scrounge one up for you.


Which brings me back to me original point you don't know jack and you are just down playing. In comics when they use the word Big Bang all intents and purpose they are talking about universe level.

I'm sure a teenager can calculate the Big Bang energy where physicist can't even make an accurate guess on


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

Montanz said:


> His argument makes sense for an actual big bang though, maybe not in this specific instance.


It doesn't make sense because the Big Bang theory can't be quantified because it wasn't an explosion but an expansion of the entire universe instantly that what is agreed upon.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Again I like you to show me the calculation that proves on a scientific level the Big Bang is galactic so I can laugh it.



It is already laughable for one simple fact: for the Big Bang to occur at all, it'd have to have an energy equal to the Mass-Energy of all the Universe at minimum, since the very instant the Big Bang began had Planck Temperature.  In other words, everything was only in its fundamental state at that exact moment of expansion, before everything cooled down. 

But I suspect they only think that the Big Bang would only be "galactic" due to Inflation.  _Id est_, if you were to detonate a Big Bang in the universe in its current size, you wouldn't have an explosion that could "destroy everything", due to the continual increase in size of the Universe from the time of the Big Bang.


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## Solar (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Which brings me back to me original point you don't know jack and you are just down playing. In comics when they use the word Big Bang all intents and purpose they are talking about universe level.



Yeah, I'm totally downplaying because I hate Superman so much and love DB dick. Yum yum yum. I'm the tonathon of db and superman is my touhou

Love how you're going from "you don't know what the big bang is" to "well the big bang in DC tho!!!"

I'll assume that this is just your go-to when you've got nothing of substance to say. 



> I'm sure a teenager can calculate the Big Bang energy where physicist can't even make an accurate guess on



And here goes that lack of critical thinking again. You're super close this time just keep going.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

Frederica Bernkastel said:


> Yeah, I'm totally downplaying because I hate Superman so much and love DB dick. Yum yum yum. I'm the tonathon of db and superman is my touhou
> 
> Love how you're going from "you don't know what the big bang is" to "well the big bang in DC tho!!!"
> 
> ...


You brought the Big Bang = Galaxy level in the convo. I asked where you got that from. I've posted like a page in and no proof provided. Sorry bro it doesn't work like that.


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 18, 2016)

Honestly this match can go either way while supes have the speed advantage hit is more or less on the higher end of universe level+  !:also has timestop+intangible and probably some other shit he hasn't shown.


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## ImaginationSensation (Dec 18, 2016)

Divell said:


> I'm gonna go with the guy that can shot himself from his hand.


Your sig   Please tell me it's official


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## King Kakarot (Dec 18, 2016)

A Pre Crisis Superman vs a Dragonball character can go either way now

We've come a long way boys


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 18, 2016)

I think Hits' time stop would work seeing how he can stack it or make it more efficient (However you wabt to se it) and affect characters that were inmune to the time stop in the first place


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## Montanz (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> It doesn't make sense because the Big Bang theory can't be quantified because it wasn't an explosion but an expansion of the entire universe instantly that what is agreed upon.



Forgive me if I'm wrong.
but wether or not it can be quantified, surviving the expansion of space-time doesn't require durability at all, it's literally happening right now yet we don't get torn to shreds by that.

best guess at what you're actually resisting while a big bang hits you is the mass-energy of the universe as all matter was ejected from it.


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> Again he came back from energy, what did you expect? for him to come back thowing up in pain?


Limping, clutching, reasonably any indication that he might have been injured? From what the panels indicate, it seems to be like Post Crisis with the black holes


Catalyst75 said:


> How far along the continuity was this feat? Depending on when, then the "bonds of infinity" look like and are most likely the boundaries of his home universe. In other words, Superman moved fast enough to exit his own Universe.


read my previous posts.

This was after Supergirl was introduced, and after she's established in the universe as her own Super hero. The multiverse has been a thing for some time.

It's not just flying from his Universe, either. I already posted him casually flying to another Universe.

The feat here is him breaking the chains of infinity and about to break the final barrier and see heaven itself. An act forbidden by mortals, which is why the Specter himself was called upon to stop him from seeing the face of God.

Waaaaay more impressive


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Forgive me if I'm wrong.
> but wether or not it can be quantified, surviving the expansion of space-time doesn't require durability at all, it's literally happening right now yet we don't get torn to shreds by that.
> 
> best guess at what you're actually resisting while a big bang hits you is the mass-energy of the universe as all matter was ejected from it.


 that's moot. Because in DC and Marvel the Big Bang is universal. So you trying to find ways around this but it's just idiotic


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 18, 2016)

Since the subject is up, I have a challenge I would like to propose:  


*Spoiler*: __ 




There are at least five projected extremities of temperature of all things in the Universe after the Big Bang, at different time intervals:

1 GK/1,000,000,000 Kelvin, everything 100 seconds after the Big Bang

10 GK/10,000,000,000 Kelvin, everything 1 second after the Big Bang

10 TK/10,000,000,000,000, 100 microseconds after the Big Bang

10^ 27 Kelvin/10^3 YottaKelvin, everything 10−35 seconds after the Big Bang

Planck Temperature - 10^32 Kelvin - everything 5×10−44 seconds after the Big Bang.

Now, given the expansion of the Universe after the Big Bang, these numbers tell us something: that 1 second after the Big Bang, the concentration of heat energy in matter was at least 18 orders of magnitude less than at the very moment of expansion.  100 seconds afterwards, expansion slowed to the extent that heat/temperature was only a single order of magnitude less.

I'm shooting in the dark here since I have no idea how I would go about this, so here's my challenge:

Determine the sum total of heat energy - how many Joules of energy in terms of heat is spread across "Everything 1 second after the Big Bang".




Yes, I know that the above would most likely be futile and pointless, but my curiosity is getting the better of me.  And I know that this wouldn't take into account the Hadron Epoch, or the Lepton epoch that occurred afterwards.


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## Solar (Dec 18, 2016)

I thought catalyst only said dumb shit in regards to Bleach? When did he branch out into other areas?

Gqepz5



Catalyst75 said:


> But I suspect they only think that the Big Bang would only be "galactic" due to Inflation.  _Id est_, if you were to detonate a Big Bang in the universe in its current size, you wouldn't have an explosion that could "destroy everything", due to the continual increase in size of the Universe from the time of the Big Bang.



This is not the case.



The Mad King said:


> You brought the Big Bang = Galaxy level in the convo. I asked where you got that from. I've posted like a page in and no proof provided. Sorry bro it doesn't work like that.



I already told you why not. 

It's due to that space-time element. "But why wouldn't the expansion of space count???" People just don't consider it to fulfill the criteria. 

I don't agree with it. I think just blowing up everything in a universe should count as universe-level.


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> that's moot. Because in DC and Marvel the Big Bang is universal. So you trying to find ways around this but it's just idiotic


It's a bit complicated.

The DC(and Marvel) Universe is very _very _much bigger than our verse, and has more space-time-magic-cosmic bullshit, to boot.

It gets really fucked when you go deeper, but the simplest shortest answer is that Superman destroyed a ship that could survive being inside the DC universe Big Bang WHILE being inside the Big Bang himself.

Also. I'm not even close to being any expert on Silver Age/Bronze Age Superman. I have no idea where his true limits lie. So @Dark Evangel should take this discussion with a grain of salt. @Vivi Ornitier knew about Pre-Crisis Kal more than I did.


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## Montanz (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> that's moot. Because in DC and Marvel the Big Bang is universal. So you trying to find ways around this but it's just idiotic



All big bangs are universal by definition, but what's being discussed is wether or not tanking one gives you universal durability.



I'm not arguing for Hit mind you, pretty sure this isn't even a match of raw power but one of hax of which PC supes has plenty of speed to abuse.


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Montanz said:


> All big bangs are universal by definition, but what's being discussed is wether or not tanking one gives you universal durability.


Now that's the question.

But really, it's pretty straight forward in regards to DC.

Too much shit involved for it to not be the case.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

Frederica Bernkastel said:


> I thought catalyst only said dumb shit in regards to Bleach? When did he branch out into other areas?
> 
> Gqepz5
> 
> ...


Oh so this none sense is because of a bunch of internet nerds, got it auto delete this asinine argument from brain done!



Montanz said:


> All big bangs are universal by definition, but what's being discussed is wether or not tanking one gives you universal durability.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not arguing for Hit mind you, pretty sure this isn't even a match of raw power but one of hax of which PC supes has plenty of speed to abuse.


I don't go by the consensus here it really stupid if I try, for example the Beerus and Goku feat that makes them "universal" I could easily say it doesn't from a similar argument but I digress. I go by the context of the feat itself and the context they wanted to show was Supes taking a universal attack to the face.


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 18, 2016)

Frederica Bernkastel said:


> I don't agree with it. I think just blowing up everything in a universe should count as universe-level.



But it is not.  If you really wanted true "Universe-level", you would have to at least out-put the same amount of energy as the mass-energy of all matter in the Universe, or just convert all matter back into energy.

But the other aspect is the fabric of space-time.  We know this exist, and we know that even physical collisions of a sufficient magnitude can .

A true "Universe-buster" would have to "reset" the Universe - something like a Universe-scale Vacuum Metastability Event.


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> But it is not.  If you really wanted true "Universe-level", you would have to at least out-put the same amount of energy as the mass-energy of all matter in the Universe, or just convert all matter back into energy.
> 
> But the other aspect is the fabric of space-time.  We know this exist, and we know that even physical collisions of a sufficient magnitude can .
> 
> A true "Universe-buster" would have to "reset" the Universe - something like a Universe-scale Vacuum Metastability Event.


Then neither Hit nor Beerus nor Superman are "True Universe Busters" 

But they have the output to destroy the universe...


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## Solar (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Oh so this none sense is because of a bunch of internet nerds, got it auto delete this asinine argument from brain done!



Yeah, non-nerds like you have no time for this! 



> I don't go by the consensus here it really stupid if I try, for example the Beerus and Goku feat that makes them "universal" I could easily say it doesn't from a similar argument but I digress. I go by the context of the feat itself and the context they wanted to show was Supes taking a universal attack to the face.



It wasn't considered universal until a few weeks ago. It's still being debated in the metadome right now lmao

It's not a double standard. So bye to your victim mentality. 

Welcome to the world of arbritrary rules BTW. Enjoy your already long stay, guy.



Sir Jogga said:


> Then neither Hit nor Beerus nor Superman are "True Universe Busters"
> 
> But they have the output to destroy the universe...



Yes, they (db) were not universe-level just a few weeks ago. Now they are. But now that is being debated again.


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## Solar (Dec 18, 2016)

Why did I quote jogga lol


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## Solar (Dec 18, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> But it is not.  If you really wanted true "Universe-level", you would have to at least out-put the same amount of energy as the mass-energy of all matter in the Universe, or just convert all matter back into energy.
> 
> But the other aspect is the fabric of space-time.  We know this exist, and we know that even physical collisions of a sufficient magnitude can .
> 
> A true "Universe-buster" would have to "reset" the Universe - something like a Universe-scale Vacuum Metastability Event.



My universe level is clearing it out. I don't use it though. I use consensus.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

Frederica Bernkastel said:


> Yeah, non-nerds like you have no time for this!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually I am an engineer, I know all the theory and principals that you'll probably ignore in your calculation which is why I would have laughed at it if you presented one.


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 18, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Limping, clutching, reasonably any indication that he might have been injured? From what the panels indicate, it se


Like I said before that will not happen they are DC silver age comics they won't show damage, and again he came back because lol plot something that won't happen in this fight


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## Montanz (Dec 18, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> But the other aspect is the fabric of space-time. We know this exist, and we know that even physical collisions of a sufficient magnitude can .



But doesn't that article imply that a sufficently strong event would irreparably fuck up space-time?

In which case becoming universal level with raw power is a real possibility now


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## Solar (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Actually I am an engineer, I know all the theory and principals that you'll probably ignore in your calculation which is why I would have laughed at it if you presented one.



I'm an English major. It has nothing to do with the conversation at hand, but it's only decent to share as well.

Of course no calculation was going to be presented. People havent gotten that crazy yet. The very first thing I said it was not "considered" as such "here." It was very much a standard agreed upon. 

But it seems this is wrapping up now, so I will be inactive for another many weeks now. Besides those VMs that I need to reply to.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 18, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> Like I said before that will not happen they are DC silver age comics they won't show damage, and again he came back because lol plot something that won't happen in this fight


That comic is from the Bronze Age not the Silver Age. Silver Age ended in 1970.

Also Bronze Age comics were darker and more violent. There's a fucked up scene where some people get burned alive in Steve Gerber's Phantom Zone miniseries. So you can stop using that argument.


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 18, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> That comic is from the Bronze Age not the Silver Age. Silver Age ended in 1970.
> 
> Also Bronze Age comics were darker and more violent. There's a fucked up scene where some people get burned alive in Steve Gerber's Phantom Zone miniseries. So you can stop using that argument.



Yeah got confused by the years I meant to say pre crisis comics but that's besides the point, plot is what brought Superman back in that issue he didn't even do it by himself


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> Like I said before that will not happen they are DC silver age comics they won't show damage, and again he came back because lol plot something that won't happen in this fight


Except they do.

They just don't show blood because of the Comics Code at the time.

Bruses, Limps, and the like? Fair game.

Also, this is the Bronze Age. When the code got remarkably broken by Marvel and DC.


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> That comic is from the Bronze Age not the Silver Age. Silver Age ended in 1970.
> 
> Also Bronze Age comics were darker and more violent. There's a fucked up scene where some people get burned alive in Steve Gerber's Phantom Zone miniseries. So you can stop using that argument.


Ninja'd again


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 18, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Ninja'd again


I'm leaving it to you to reply to the guy 

Mostly because it's been a long time since I last read the Forgotten Heroes arc.


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> Yeah got confused by the years I meant to say pre crisis comics but that's besides the point, plot is what brought Superman back in that issue he didn't even do it by himself


What, the time travel?

It did.

He came back ok after destroying the damn thing.

So what if he needed the machine he came with to come back ( which I am not sure he did considering he appeared alone )


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I'm leaving it to you to reply to the guy
> 
> Mostly because it's been a long time since I last read the Forgotten Heroes arc.


Don't look at me. I'm going to sleep.

Leave it to the n00bs to defend

What could go wrong


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 18, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Don't look at me. I'm going to sleep.
> 
> Leave it to the n00bs to defend
> 
> What could go wrong


That's my problem too. I would stay up past 2 in the morning but I dun wanna.

Plus I haven't read Pre-Crisis in ages so my memory's foggy.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Galactic in power hold the hell up, i like to see the proof of that because TTGL gets its universal dura from absorbing a big bang



A Big Bang is *not* an explosion. It is an *expansion.
*
The Big Bang is all the measurable energy in the universe expanding outwards *over a period of time**. That means a Big Bang needs time* to travel to reach places for destruction. If I initiated a Big Bang at the center of the universe, the destruction would take billions of years to reach Earth. A Big Bang could literally not and would *never* destroy the current universe; it wouldn't even come close-not even a measurable percentage.
_
Big Bang = All the measurable energy in the universe + extra energy for expansion._

_Universe Busting = All the measurable energy in the universe + extra energy for expansion + more energy necessary to accelerate the expansion beyond the size of the universe._ A Big Bang doesn't even come close to that.

The mass energy of the universe is not all the energy in the universe. If you threw the mass energy of our universe at a universe of equal energy, nothing would happen. The original state of all this energy was in a space smaller than an atom; it's not that much. Imagine spreading a handful of sand across the entire Earth.


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 18, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> What, the time travel?
> 
> It did.
> 
> ...



No he didn't, he pretty much dissapeared and that changed time to a world of no Superheroes

*Spoiler*: __ 









Then the world gets conquered by some aliens and some kids draw him and somehow that helps to make the world as it used to be

*Spoiler*: __ 










So the kids believe so hard that somehow Superman comes back

*Spoiler*: __ 










And that's why I said it was all plot, Superman pretty much vanished after the explosion of the pyramid, Supes did took out that thing but he went down with it, and like I posted he didn't return on his own, the issue itself is just a shout out for the creators who are represented by the kids  

*Spoiler*: __


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## Brolypotence (Dec 18, 2016)

These Goku vs Superman threads used to be cool back in the day


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## Montanz (Dec 18, 2016)

it's just semantics at this point, it's not like we can tell which feat is inherently more powerful for sure. but I'd say that in the raw DC department Hit has it due to the fact the energy of the big bang would be spread out over an increasingly larger area and resisting it may not require tanking all of the energy.

Supes blitzes though, so if it comes to a battle of attrition, or if he has any hax he could win.


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## Divell (Dec 18, 2016)

ImaginationSensation said:


> Your sig   Please tell me it's official


Pff, I wish. But no, is fan made. Bleach went down hill completely, Shonen Jump and probably Shueisha, doesn't want to do anything more with Bleach.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 18, 2016)

If I chucked a hand grenade at you, it blew up on your chest and you survived, does this mean you tanked the full energy of the hand grenade? Obviously not, because upwards of 75% of the energy flew directly away from you. 
The same should apply to the gizzmo that tanked a big bang. Even if you accept the big bang as universe level, that gizzmo still only tanked a portion of the energy. 

Hit on the other hand is superior to current SSB Goku, who is massively superior to BoG SSG Goku, who was already multi-universe level (is that a term? If not then it should be). DC and dura should therefore handily go to Hit, even if Supes is still faster


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 18, 2016)

Tanking the Big Bang =/= Tanking Universal Mass Energy

Face tanking the literal Big Bang is an infinitely better feat than getting smacked in the face with "the power of the big bang" or whatever because implied here is an element of spatial/temporal/fuck u its hax resistance. Basically you should treat tanking the Big Bang exactly the same way you would treat destroying the universe. IMO anyway.

Reactions: Like 1


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## whatsausername (Dec 18, 2016)

Brolypotence said:


> These Goku vs Superman threads used to be cool back in the day


the good ol days....


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## Catalyst75 (Dec 18, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Then neither Hit nor Beerus nor Superman are "True Universe Busters"
> 
> But they have the output to destroy the universe...



Depends on how far Beerus or Hit would be able to take things.  Hit is more powerful than the SSJ God Goku who was trading blows with Beerus, and threatened to reduce the Universe to a void.  

But in the case of Superman, since we've never seen him detonate a Universe (outside of blowing up Earth to cause a chain reaction for EmoBoy-Prime), he never was a potential Universe-level to begin with outside of that sword.



Montanz said:


> But doesn't that article imply that a sufficently strong event would irreparably fuck up space-time?
> 
> In which case becoming universal level with raw power is a real possibility now



You mean the part of the article about this, I assume:


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> Depends on how far Beerus or Hit would be able to take things.  Hit is more powerful than the SSJ God Goku who was trading blows with Beerus, and threatened to reduce the Universe to a void.
> 
> But in the case of Superman, since we've never seen him detonate a Universe (outside of blowing up Earth to cause a chain reaction for EmoBoy-Prime), he never was a potential Universe-level to begin with outside of that sword.


Ok. First off. You guys need to fucking stop bringing up Sword of Superman in this.

He only used it *once* and that was just so he could _reject _it.

Using that is the same as using Superman Prime One Million in a fight. It'd be useless since we don't know what he's capable of.

More to the point. Pre-Crisis has the same shit. Nobody here actually knows if this is Silver Age/Bronze Age Superman's best.

That shit I brought up? Tip of the iceberg. No real consensus because nobody _really_ went as deep as @Endless Mike did for Fantastic Four. Only @Blakk Jakk is going that deep, and that's largely for Golden Age because that fucker is too goddam underrated.

Superman's never a potential for Universe level outside the Sword? What are you smoking?


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

Frederica Bernkastel said:


> I'm an English major. It has nothing to do with the conversation at hand, but it's only decent to share as well.
> 
> Of course no calculation was going to be presented. People havent gotten that crazy yet. The very first thing I said it was not "considered" as such "here." It was very much a standard agreed upon.
> 
> But it seems this is wrapping up now, so I will be inactive for another many weeks now. Besides those VMs that I need to reply to.


Good so you are trying disprove canon context and proof from DC comics with your own idiotic logic from the obd, if DC wanted it to be universal the feat is universal. Not your misunderstanding of the BBT.

Also  English Major talking like he qualify as a nerd


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> A Big Bang is *not* an explosion. It is an *expansion.
> *
> The Big Bang is all the measurable energy in the universe expanding outwards *over a period of time**. That means a Big Bang needs time* to travel to reach places for destruction. If I initiated a Big Bang at the center of the universe, the destruction would take billions of years to reach Earth. A Big Bang could literally not and would *never* destroy the current universe; it wouldn't even come close-not even a measurable percentage.
> _
> ...





The Mad King said:


> It doesn't make sense because the *Big Bang theory can't be quantified because it wasn't an explosion but an expansion of the entire universe* instantly that what is agreed upon.


Nic try but I already mention this 

Its expansion you don't know how much of the universe was created nor do you know the time of expansion. We don't assume it started at a galactic level anyway.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 18, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Ok. First off. You guys need to fucking stop bringing up Sword of Superman in this.
> 
> He only used it *once* and that was just so he could _reject _it.
> 
> ...


And no one wants to help a brother out 

I'm reading a lot of comics while also being busy and lazy.

It's fine if no one's interested, it just means it'll take a longer time to finish my shit.


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> And no one wants to help a brother out
> 
> I'm reading a lot of comics while also being busy and lazy.
> 
> It's fine if no one's interested, it just means it'll take a longer time to finish my shit.


Sorry man.

I had the chance to buy the Golden Age Omnibus at Mega-Con at a cheap price.

Opted out for Multiversity-Thunderworld instead

The comic was good, tho


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 18, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Sorry man.
> 
> I had the chance to buy the Golden Age Omnibus at Mega-Con at a cheap price.
> 
> ...


I'm reading all the mainstream Supermen dammit!

That's like 70 years worth of Duperman comics 

Pre-Crisis I'm putting off because I haven't figured out where the cutoff between Gold and Silver is. I guess I could read the Superboy shit for the time being.


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## Blocky (Dec 18, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I'm reading all the mainstream Supermen dammit!
> 
> That's like 70 years worth of Duperman comics
> 
> Pre-Crisis I'm putting off because I haven't figured out where the cutoff between Gold and Silver is. I guess I could read the Superboy shit for the time being.


You sure you able to do that? You need alot of free time in your hands and take a few years as well


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 18, 2016)

Blocky said:


> You sure you able to do that? You need alot of free time in your hands and take a few years as well


Yeah I'm still doing it but anyone who wants to hop on board's welcome to.

It'll make my life easier.


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Blocky said:


> You sure you able to do that? You need alot of free time in your hands and take a few years as well


It's easier if there is more than one guy involved.

Golden Age and Silver Age are long, but not nearly as much as the entire Fantastic Four run Mike tried.

People can do it in a shorter while if it's more than one guy doing it, split between versions


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## Solar (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> blub blub blub please someone accept what i'm saying dc is strongggg blub blub blub


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## Solar (Dec 18, 2016)

it's like i thought this was over with earlier this morning

but some people just can't let things go


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## Gordo solos (Dec 18, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I'm reading all the mainstream Supermen dammit!
> 
> That's like 70 years worth of Duperman comics
> 
> Pre-Crisis I'm putting off because I haven't figured out where the cutoff between Gold and Silver is. I guess I could read the Superboy shit for the time being.


You're reading the original "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive" Supes?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 18, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> You're reading the original "faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive" Supes?


Well yeah because he's my favorite and he's underrated.

I did find some neat things that I didn't know like him being vulnerable to electricity.


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## XImpossibruX (Dec 18, 2016)

Change that to your sig, your current one is lacking.


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## God Movement (Dec 18, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Change that to your sig, your current one is lacking.



Too long, probably.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

What are you 12


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Checkmate

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3 | Winner 1 | Useful 1


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Elaborate.


Not directed at you I quoted Fred Bern

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Xhominid (Dec 18, 2016)

This topic is pretty funny for that one time someone put up that only Zen'O could beat Pre-Crisis Superman despite Beerus alone being so above SSJBxKK10 Goku(due to implications that despite Beerus's suprise, both him and Champa is still laughably above him), Merged Zamasu required SSJB Vegito who is composited of 2 Universal+ characters, Whis and Vados who are both laughably above Beerus and Champa and that counts for all of the GoD's and their Angelic attendants. And that's not even putting out the Grand Priest who is the Top 5 strongest in the Multiverse and can end the both of them...

And we've seen that all of them are capable of hax in some way(Beerus's Hakai can destroy lesser gods and ghosts as well as completely negate energy, Vados and Whis can either destroy or create things with the most insulting of ease, Zen'O can just END you and the entire Multiverse in a possible extreme Big Crunch).

Hit in the Anime is above Goku in all respects since Goku stated Hit could have killed him if he was able to use his Assassination Artes. Hit has IMPROVED since that just Goku has as Goku stated himself...

Pre-Crisis Superman is easily a match for Hit and Goku even now, but let's not even pretend he's at Beerus's level only due to how DBS is ramping up the true power of a God of Destruction and how hard Goku has to go just to match him.


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Pre-Crisis Superman is easily a match for Hit and Goku even now, but let's not even pretend he's at Beerus's level only due to how DBS is ramping up the true power of a God of Destruction and how hard Goku has to go just to match him.


I'd like to repeat myself, but it'd be redundant.


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## Xhominid (Dec 18, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> I'd like to repeat myself, but it'd be redundant.



Yeah Superman did destroy a machine capable of withstanding the Big Bang while he was also in it...
But I don't understand how that matters against Beerus who can easily be stated at this rate to be able to casually destroy the universe due to scaling vs. Pre-Crisis Superman when he did that he apparently died doing so for a minute(I don't know if that's true but someone tossed that out there so...)


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## XImpossibruX (Dec 18, 2016)

The characters in DBS are so above universe level it's not even funny. 

But its unquantifiable, so.... it's just universe+


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## Solar (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Not directed at you I quoted Fred Bern


 
If you don't want me to treat your posts like shit, stop replying with irrelevant shit. Your response meant nothing to me. I already know what you think and what you claim DC believes universe-level is. You already said that. That doesn't change anything.


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

Frederica Bernkastel said:


> If you don't want me to treat your posts like shit, stop replying with irrelevant shit. Your response meant nothing to me. I already know what you think and what you claim DC believes universe-level is. You already said that. That doesn't change anything.


post mean nothing to you, yet salty enough to throw a tantrum


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## Solar (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> post mean nothing to you, yet salty enough to throw a tantrum



"Post means nothing" is linked with "irrelevant." Come on now. Is it that hard for you to read? But if a few lines of text are what constitutes a tantrum, then yes, it's a tantrum. Take it as one. 

Doesn't change anything I've already said.


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Yeah Superman did destroy a machine capable of withstanding the Big Bang while he was also in it...
> But I don't understand how that matters against Beerus who can easily be stated at this rate to be able to casually destroy the universe due to scaling vs. Pre-Crisis Superman when he did that he apparently died doing so for a minute(I don't know if that's true but someone tossed that out there so...)


I meant the fact that Superman's limits are undefined

Not the feat

Aaaaand I repeated myself anyway


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 18, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Yeah Superman did destroy a machine capable of withstanding the Big Bang while he was also in it...
> But I don't understand how that matters against Beerus who can easily be stated at this rate to be able to casually destroy the universe due to scaling vs. Pre-Crisis Superman when he did that he apparently died doing so for a minute(I don't know if that's true but someone tossed that out there so...)


Jogga has said that no one save for me is looking into Pre-Crisis feats. Pre-Crisis Superman is largely a question mark when it comes to debating but he's roughly universal+ in DC and durability.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 18, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> I meant the fact that Superman's limits are undefined
> 
> Not the feat
> 
> Aaaaand I repeated myself anyway


And you ninja'd me Jogga.

Guess it's karma for doing it to you

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> And you ninja'd me Jogga.
> 
> Guess it's karma for doing it to you


*Yes, kukuku *

*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Blocky (Dec 18, 2016)

Least I still ninja'd you guys

Reactions: Like 3


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## Perpetrator Rex (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> Nic try but I already mention this
> 
> Its expansion you don't know how much of the universe was created nor do you know the time of expansion. We don't assume it started at a galactic level anyway.


We can't calc the Big Bang, not because it's too much, but because there is an energy involved we can't adequately detect. The Big Bang isn't so much power that it's immeasurable, it's unmeasurable due to the unknown energies involved.

The Big Bang is essentially "A+?=?". If we discover what any of the unknowns are, the problem is solved. What we do know is that it can't expand fast enough to destroy the universe. It lacks the power; we do know that.


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## Xhominid (Dec 18, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Jogga has said that no one save for me is looking into Pre-Crisis feats. Pre-Crisis Superman is largely a question mark when it comes to debating but he's roughly universal+ in DC and durability.





Sir Jogga said:


> I meant the fact that Superman's limits are undefined
> 
> Not the feat
> 
> Aaaaand I repeated myself anyway



Oh, then I'll just hold off till people can really get the grasp of him then.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 18, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Oh, then I'll just hold off till people can really get the grasp of him then.


Lord knows I'm the only one willing to do something as crazy as read nearly 70 years worth of comics.

Silver Age is like 40 years worth. Wish me luck

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> We can't calc the Big Bang, not because it's too much, but because there is an energy involved we can't adequately detect. The Big Bang isn't so much power that it's immeasurable, it's unmeasurable due to the unknown energies involved.
> 
> The Big Bang is essentially "A+?=?". If we discover what any of the unknowns are, the problem is solved. What we do know is that it can't expand fast enough to destroy the universe. It lacks the power; we do know that.


we need an accurate idea of what the Big Bang was, the theory is just a well thought out idea. its a lot more than just a simple "A+?=?" Or simple calculus equation.


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

I think @Dark Evangel should consider closing the thread...

This doesn't seem to be going anywhere any time soon...


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 18, 2016)

I finally earned my first thumb down from @Descendant Of Vagabonds tho

Reactions: Funny 1


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## XImpossibruX (Dec 18, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Oh, then I'll just hold off till people can really get the grasp of him then.



Waiting a while. 

To read Pre-Crisis is a chore IMO, not much people have delved into comics that late. Only piece of Pre-Crisis i've fully read (not just single issues) is COIE, considering its the most defining DC event.

Reactions: Useful 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 18, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Waiting a while.
> 
> To read Pre-Crisis is a chore IMO, not much people have delved into comics that late. Only piece of Pre-Crisis i've fully read (not just single issues) is COIE, considering its the most defining DC event.


You wanna read some Duperman with me?

You don't have to but it'll make my feat compiling go quicker.


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 18, 2016)

In all honesty this was less of a shitstorm that what I thought it would be


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Waiting a while.
> 
> To read Pre-Crisis is a chore IMO, not much people have delved into comics that late. Only piece of Pre-Crisis i've fully read (not just single issues) is COIE, considering its the most defining DC event.


Did Kimiyo Hoshi become your waifu after you read it


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 18, 2016)

This thread made me realize by the usernames visiting the OBD that you guys will never get rid of cancerdome


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## Crackle (Dec 18, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Pre-Crisis Supes is multi-galaxy+ to universal and septillions of times the speed of light.
> 
> Hit might have higher DC and durability but Pre-Crisis Supes is way faster.


and more hax


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## Nep Heart (Dec 18, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> This thread made me realize by the usernames visiting the OBD that you guys will never get rid of cancerdome



 In a technical sense, you'd be right since while the Cancerdome subsection we knew before is gone, it currently has spiritual successors in the form of new subsections such as the Naruto, Bleach and One Piece Battledomes... thankfully, they are not OBD related like the original Cancerdome.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Crackle (Dec 18, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Yep


I don't think it's possible to quantify distance with that seeings as how whats on those maps aren't universes but the earths of each universe that they're in as representation.


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## Regicide (Dec 18, 2016)

New?

As far as I know, those sections are old as fuck


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Crackle said:


> I don't think it's possible to quantify distance with that seeings as how whats on those maps aren't universes but the earths of each universe that they're in as representation.


Not precisely.

The Earths represent the universes. It's their Meta-Name for the realm. Like Heaven  and the Dream Relm


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## The Runner (Dec 18, 2016)

Even so, the map is essentially disproportionate regardless.

I just joked that the people using the DB map to calc the distance would probably do the job


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## Crackle (Dec 18, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> That's right.
> 
> Honestly, infinity makes sense to a point.
> 
> If someone wants to scale the map like DB fans did with their map, they are welcome to try


 That and the fact could just be inacurrate to some degree. We see Apokolips and New Genesis are on polar opposite sides of the map but whenever we have a story involving The Fourth World they're literally right next to each other.


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## Toaa (Dec 19, 2016)

Does superman has any feats close to the infinite one amd the universe one?Also for him to reach the bonds of infinite a large amount of time requires so that he can accelerate.


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## Crackle (Dec 19, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Does superman has any feats close to the infinite one amd the universe one?Also for him to reach the bonds of infinite a large amount of time requires so that he can accelerate.


uh what?


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## Perpetrator Rex (Dec 19, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> we need an accurate idea of what the Big Bang was, the theory is just a well thought out idea. its a lot more than just a simple "A+?=?" Or simple calculus equation.


I'm aware of that, my example was just a representation of what we know and don't know.

If you are going to destroy the universe with brute force, you need to overcome expansion, not just match the universe's total measurable energy amount. The very moment you output Big Bang energy, the universe would have already infinitely increased in size, due to expansion.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 19, 2016)

The big bang: All the energy in the universe concentrated in a comparably very small volume
The universe: The same energy as the big bang, but spread over a vastly larger volume
That sound about right?

By that logic busting the universe would take way more energy than the big bang, because a universal attack would need to destroy the same amount of "stuff", but cover a massively larger volume.


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## Nep Heart (Dec 19, 2016)

I guess it's why we sometimes label Big Bang (as space-time along with matter and energy having just begun expansion from its initial state of an infinitely small point) as "universe level" without the "+" while busting an actual inhabitable space-time continuum that's expanded into a cosmic sized structure as "universe level+," but that's just how I've been seeing it. *shrugs*


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> I guess it's why we sometimes label Big Bang (as space-time along with matter and energy having just begun expansion from its initial state of an infinitely small point) as "universe level" without the "+" while busting an actual inhabitable space-time continuum that's expanded into a cosmic sized structure as "universe level+," but that's just how I've been seeing it. *shrugs*


I skimmed over that issue where the Big Bang takes place and it was going to destroy the timeline or something like that so it's possible that particular one can affect space-time.

It could also be around Mike's calc of the Imperiex Big Bang which would put Supes above baseline universal characters.


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## Nep Heart (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I skimmed over that issue where the Big Bang takes place and it was going to destroy the timeline or something like that so it's possible that particular one can affect space-time.
> 
> It could also be around Mike's calc of the Imperiex Big Bang which would put Supes above baseline universal characters.



 By the logic of universe level vs universe level+ I've seen around here, I would agree that is straight up universe level+ for being portrayed as being far more potent than the actual Big Bang, yeah.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> By the logic of universe level vs universe level+ I've seen around here, I would agree that is straight up universe level+ for being portrayed as being far more potent than the actual Big Bang, yeah.


Dunno if that puts Supes at a high enough level to be able to damage Hit but he can punch a lot quicker and try and pummel the crap outta him with universal+ punches.


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## Toaa (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Dunno if that puts Supes at a high enough level to be able to damage Hit but he can punch a lot quicker and try and pummel the crap outta him with universal+ punches.


Has he actually shown any feats that are around that lv?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Has he actually shown any feats that are around that lv?


He tanked a Big Bang that was going to destroy the timeline as well as destroy an object that also tanked the same one.

And this Big Bang may or may not be more potent since it depends on whether or not the hundreds of trillions of light years works for Pre-Crisis DCU as it does for Post-Crisis DCU.


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## Toaa (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> He tanked a Big Bang that was going to destroy the timeline as well as destroy an object that also tanked the same one.
> 
> And this Big Bang may or may not be more potent since it depends on whether or not the hundreds of trillions of light years works for Pre-Crisis DCU as it does for Post-Crisis DCU.


But thats a single instance in 40 years of issues.You would need at least a couple dozens similar feats to support such a level especially with solver age supes who was random af.


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## Gordo solos (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> He tanked a Big Bang that was going to destroy the timeline as well as destroy an object that also tanked the same one.
> 
> And this Big Bang may or may not be more potent since it depends on whether or not the hundreds of trillions of light years works for Pre-Crisis DCU as it does for Post-Crisis DCU.


Not sure if this helps, but when the Spectre punched some demon named Shathan (and I believe EM even calced this), his fist traveled "hundreds of billions of light years" around the universe


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Toaa said:


> But thats a single instance in 40 years of issues.You would need at least a couple dozens similar feats to support such a level especially with solver age supes who was random af.


He's fought other multi-galaxy and universe level threats before.

He tanked Blackstarr's magic that hit with the power of nebulae or something to that effect.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> Not sure if this helps, but when the Spectre punched some demon named Shathan (and I believe EM even calced this), his fist traveled "hundreds of billions of light years" around the universe


Welp, that is some evidence that lends credence to the Pre-Crisis DCU being larger than our universe but not quite close to the size of the Post-Crisis universe.


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## Toaa (Dec 19, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> Not sure if this helps, but when the Spectre punched some demon named Shathan (and I believe EM even calced this), his fist traveled "hundreds of billions of light years" around the universe


Chuunibyou syndrome.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Nebulae?


Plural for nebula. I guess nebulas works too.

I was also wrong, it wasn't nebulae that Backstarr hit with the force of. It was quasars. She also apparently controlled the "forces of the universe" or some such.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> He tanked a Big Bang that was going to destroy the timeline as well as destroy an object that also tanked the same one.


Which means very little unless Supes and that object tanked the ENTIRETY of the Big Bang
Did they?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> Which means very little unless Supes and that object tanked the ENTIRETY of the Big Bang
> Did they?


They were enduring it and Supes himself was fine after he tanked it.

The only problem was that the aliens had tried to write him out of existence but he came back anyways.

And if that isn't enough for you, Backstarr hit him and Supergirl with magical quasars and she controlled the "forces of the universe" or some such.


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## Toaa (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> They were enduring it and Supes himself was fine after he tanked it.
> 
> The only problem was that the aliens had tried to write him out of existence but he came back anyways.
> 
> And if that isn't enough for you, Backstarr hit him and Supergirl with magical quasars and she controlled the "forces of the universe" or some such.


Are quasars even galaxy lv?Forces pf the universe sre thrown around a lot.For example has he been portrayed at a decent amount of issues as an equal foe to universal beings?And what about speed.Has he been portrayed as fast as that issue.Because thats the scan mostly mentioned  for his speed with may be an outlier


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Are quasars even galaxy lv?Forces pf the universe sre thrown around a lot.For example has he been portrayed at a decent amount of issues as an equal foe to universal beings?And what about speed.Has he been portrayed as fast as that issue.Because thats the scan mostly mentioned  for his speed with may be an outlier


Quasars can emit more energy than an entire galaxy so yeah they should be.

"Forces of the universe" is vague but I mention it because it might lend some credence to Supes being universal+ as well as the threats he faces.

Also yeah, he flew to another universe to get rid of the magic Mxy infected him with to sneeze it out which devastated a solar system. Pre-Crisis Supes does that kind of thing a lot.


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## Toaa (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Quasars can emit more energy than an entire galaxy so yeah they should be.
> 
> "Forces of the universe" is vague but I mention it because it might lend some credence to Supes being universal+ as well as the threats he faces.
> 
> Also yeah, he flew to another universe to get rid of the magic Mxy infected him with to sneeze it out which devastated a solar system. Pre-Crisis Supes does that kind of thing a lot.


Yes but that would come out as at most quintillions which would make Hit able to hit him.And considering who Hit is he will go for time stop invulnerability and shockwave through the heart.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Yes but that would come out as at most quintillions which would make Hit able to hit him.And considering who Hit is he will go for time stop invulnerability and shockwave through the heart.


Supes has a speed feat that's in the septillions. Mike calced it a long time ago so he's way _way_ faster than Hit is. He's also got the hax advantage most likely.


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## Toaa (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Supes has a speed feat that's in the septillions. Mike calced it a long time ago so he's way _way_ faster than Hit is. He's also got the hax advantage most likely.


My point is that he needs many feats around that range not just a single one so except they are more thats an outlier.Also what hax does he possess


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Toaa said:


> My point is that he needs many feats around that range not just a single one so except they are more thats an outlier.Also what hax does he possess


I would be inclined to agree but there's a problem with that.

Nobody except for me and Blocky are looking into Pre-Crisis feats at the moment.

We have no real way to determine if it is or isn't an outlier. Based on how the feat is presented and the fact that Supes has casually flown to other universes as well as the fact that when he went all out, he not only made it out of his universe but also made it to Heaven demonstrates it's very unlikely for it to be an outlier.


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## Nep Heart (Dec 19, 2016)

Septillions of c is a nice low-end more than anything considering Pre-Crisis Supes has a ton of physics bending speed feats that are unquantifiable as a few in this thread have already brought up. Dis level of downplay, mon.


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## Toaa (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I would be inclined to agree but there's a problem with that.
> 
> Nobody except for me and Blocky are looking into Pre-Crisis feats at the moment.
> 
> We have no real way to determine if it is or isn't an outlier. Based on how the feat is presented and the fact that Supes has casually flown to other universes as well as the fact that when he went all out, he not only made it out of his universe but also made it to Heaven demonstrates it's very unlikely for it to be an outlier.


Yes but quintillions and septillions have 1000000x diffrence


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Yes but quintillions and septillions have 1000000x diffrence


You're discounting the feat where Supes made it to Heaven.

Also, the septillions feat was casual too.

Plus what Ampchu said.


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## Nep Heart (Dec 19, 2016)

Unless there is _yet_ another DBS calc I am unaware of (we get these like every week for some reason), only one who gets 2 quintillion c afaik is Zeno himself, who no one in DB scales to as of yet. I wouldn't even scale Hit to Vados' 200 quadrillion c. Maybe scaling to Beerus is possible. So, the speed gap is actually even greater than what people would think given septillions c works as a good low-end for PC Superman having logic defying speed feats that would be far more absurd anyway.


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Toaa said:


> My point is that he needs many feats around that range not just a single one so except they are more thats an outlier.Also what hax does he possess


Mostly.

Again. This is the tip of the iceberg. 

Pre-Crisis fought a guy whom had the magnetic repulsion flow power of 100 Galaxy, and stated that the guy _might _be trouble. 

There is also Supergirl, a much weaker Kryptonian, "tanking" an attack of a dozen or so Quasars from Blackstarr iirc


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## SSBMonado (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> They were enduring it and Supes himself was fine after he tanked it.


That doesn't really answer my question. Was the entirety of the big bang focused ENTIRELY on Superman? Or was he merely present when the big bang happened? Even if that big bang blew up directly in front of his chest, that would still mean that the majority of the energy missed him, and that the feat is not even close to universal. 



> The only problem was that the aliens had tried to write him out of existence but he came back anyways.


Sounds like resistance to reality warping, not a DC feat.



> And if that isn't enough for you, Backstarr hit him and Supergirl with magical quasars and she controlled the "forces of the universe" or some such.


"magical quasars"? In the same way every RPG villain and their dog can throw around magical black holes?
Even if those were proper quasars, I'm fairly sure a quasar isn't remotely close to universe level


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> That doesn't really answer my question. Was the entirety of the big bang focused ENTIRELY on Superman? Or was he merely present when the big bang happened? Even if that big bang blew up directly in front of his chest, that would still mean that the majority of the energy missed him, and that the feat is not even close to universal.


He tanked the aftermath of it and was getting hit by extreme pressure and getting blinded by light. The pyramid structure also tanked it too and he destroyed it.


SSBMonado said:


> Sounds like resistance to reality warping, not a DC feat.


For the Big Bang? That Big Bang rewrote all of reality and temporarily erased Superman but he made it back.


SSBMonado said:


> "magical quasars"? In the same way every RPG villain and their dog can throw around magical black holes?
> Even if those were proper quasars, I'm fairly sure a quasar isn't remotely close to universe level


I say magical quasar because those quasars were empowered by magic which Superman is weak against.

Blackstarr's a sorceress and as Jogga said, she hits with the force of galaxies.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> He tanked the aftermath of it and was getting hit by extreme pressure and getting blinded by light. The pyramid structure also tanked it too and he destroyed it.


You're giving me the run-around. So I take it Supes DIDN'T tank the entirety of the big bang's energy and neither did that gizzmo he destroyed afterwards, meaning that neither feat gives supes universal stats.



> For the Big Bang? That Big Bang rewrote all of reality and temporarily erased Superman but he made it back.


So the aliens added a hax component to the big bang. Either that or big bangs in that continuity are just hax to begin with. Either way isn't helpful when it comes to non-hax-related stats.



> I say magical quasar because those quasars were empowered by magic which Superman is weak against.


Fair enough. So the most we can say is that those quasars hurt an unquantifiable amount more than regular quasars would have. We're still not getting universe level durability from that.

The point of all this is that Hit is universe level+++ due to being superior to current SSB Goku, who is massively superior to BoG SSG Goku, who was already multi-universal ("multi" meaning ~10 here).
If Pre-Crisis Supes isn't even baseline universal, then his attacks wouldn't phase Hit at all.


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## TJTheDuelist (Dec 19, 2016)

Superman blitzes


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Blackstarr's a sorceress and as Jogga said, she hits with the force of galaxies


Nah. It's actually Quasars. Several Magic Quasars.

The 100 Galaxy feat was Magnar. And Supes pretty much tanked it


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> You're giving me the run-around. So I take it Supes DIDN'T tank the entirety of the big bang's energy and neither did that gizzmo he destroyed afterwards, meaning that neither feat gives supes universal stats.


Considering the spaceship he was in was tanking it just after it had exploded and he got outside to blow up the structure, yeah I'd say that's universe level. He also wasn't getting injured in the slightest by it, the pressure was just holding him back.


SSBMonado said:


> So the aliens added a hax component to the big bang. Either that or big bangs in that continuity are just hax to begin with. Either way isn't helpful when it comes to non-hax-related stats.


That particular one was haxed as no other DCU Big Bang does that. Also, the DCU universe is hundreds of trillions of light years in size which would make that feat way higher than it usually is. Mike actually calced the DCU Big Bang a little while ago.


SSBMonado said:


> Fair enough. So the most we can say is that those quasars hurt an unquantifiable amount more than regular quasars would have. We're still not getting universe level durability from that.
> 
> The point of all this is that Hit is universe level+++ due to being superior to current SSB Goku, who is massively superior to BoG SSG Goku, who was already multi-universal ("multi" meaning ~10 here).
> If Pre-Crisis Supes isn't even baseline universal, then his attacks wouldn't phase Hit at all.


I made a bit of an error here. Jogga corrected me.

Anyways, Supes isn't baseline universal, he's above it to be frank. He tanked a Big Bang and destroyed something that tanked said Big Bang that's in the tenakilotons range. That's way more than the entire mass-energy of the universe.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Anyways, Supes isn't baseline universal, he's above it to be frank. He tanked a Big Bang and destroyed something that tanked said Big Bang that's in the tenakilotons range. That's way more than the entire mass-energy of the universe.


For the last time: Tanking a universal explosion is only universe level if you got hit by the ENTIRETY of that energy. Between what you have said so far and the scans people posted earlier in the thread, I'm deducing that both Supes and that object were merely PRESENT when the big bang happened.
That means that the vast majority of the energy missed them, making the whole feat moot.


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> For the last time: Tanking a universal explosion is only universe level if you got hit by the ENTIRETY of that energy. Between what you have said so far and the scans people posted earlier in the thread, I'm deducing that both Supes and that object were merely PRESENT when the big bang happened.
> That means that the vast majority of the energy missed them, making the whole feat moot.


Ah, yes. 

Good thing that Superman and the rest of the ship was at the equator of the explosion, and the ship was perfectly fine.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 19, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Ah, yes.
> 
> Good thing that Superman and the rest of the ship was at the equator of the explosion, and the ship was perfectly fine.


Can someone just post a scan of the damn feat already? 
And being at the "equator" of an explosion means... what exactly?


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## Gordo solos (Dec 19, 2016)

I thought he was close to the epicenter of the explosion?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> I thought he was close to the epicenter of the explosion?


He was. You can see him approaching it actually.

Also IIRC Captain Marvel fought someone who had the power of the Big Bang.


*Spoiler*: __


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Also IIRC Captain Marvel fought someone who had the power of the Big Bang.


Yeah but he was only introduced in COIE and...

Well they were still physically comparable in that story


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> Can someone just post a scan of the damn feat already?
> And being at the "equator" of an explosion means... what exactly?


The more at the center you are, the more of the output you absorb. Him and the ship were literally at the center.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 19, 2016)

Alright, lemme do some really casual BS math real quick.

It's wonky to see, but let's assume Supes was 2 body lengths away from the epicenter of the big bang, and let's assume Supes is 1.80 meters tall.
That means that the big bang had a surface area of about 163 m². The total energy of the big bang is divided more or less evenly among that area. 
So how much of the energy did Supes get hit by? Well he's flying into it face first, so let's assume the area of his head, shoulders and arms is about 0.25 m²

This means that going by that scan, Supes tanked only 1/652th, or 0.15% of that big bang's total energy


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 19, 2016)

I don't feel Superman has the hax advantage like people are saying most of Supes hax are really dumb only a handfull like mind control are worth something, I feel Hit has better Hax time-stop, intangibility, and attacks the bypass dura

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> I don't feel Superman has the hax advantage like people are saying most of Supes hax are really dumb only a handfull like mind control are worth something, I feel Hit has better Hax time-stop, intangibility, and attacks the bypass dura


Time-travel and intangibility are also in Supes' arsenal. He can also BFR Hit but the OP banned that ability.

Let's not forget Supes also broke the bonds of infinity by making it to Heaven and having to be stopped by the Spectre.

Hit's hax isn't going to work here unless there's hax I don't know of.


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Time-travel and intangibility are also in Supes' arsenal. He can also BFR Hit but the OP banned that ability.
> 
> Let's not forget Supes also broke the bonds of infinity by making it to Heaven and having to be stopped by the Spectre.
> 
> Hit's hax isn't going to work here unless there's hax I don't know of.


Like I said only a handful are useful, Why wouldn't Hit hax work?


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> I don't feel Superman has the hax advantage like people are saying most of Supes hax are really dumb only a handfull like mind control are worth something, I feel Hit has better Hax time-stop, intangibility, and attacks the bypass dura


Intangibility, Mind-Control, Time-Travel, Energy Absorbtion, etc

Way more hax, bruh


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> Like I said only a handful are useful, Why wouldn't Hit hax work?


Geg on Hit being fast enough to do anything


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> Like I said only a handful are useful, Why wouldn't Hit hax work?


Because Supes can break through spacetime just by accelerating fast enough or can just travel in time to resist the timestop.

Plus Supes can just turn intangible himself and counter Hit's hax.

Also, Hit to the best of my knowledge can't resist Supes' mind control.


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> Alright, lemme do some really casual BS math real quick.
> 
> It's wonky to see, but let's assume Supes was 2 body lengths away from the epicenter of the big bang, and let's assume Supes is 1.80 meters tall.
> That means that the big bang had a surface area of about 163 m². The total energy of the big bang is divided more or less evenly among that area.
> ...


First off Superman is 1.90 meters.

Secondly he wasn't two body lengths away.

It was literally at the center


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## XImpossibruX (Dec 19, 2016)

Just a reminder that Hit has frozen Goku in time who break out of his time-stop.

Also you would have to show Pre-Crisis Superman breaking out of a time-stop, considering time travel or breaking space-time isn't the same thing as functioning within stopped time.


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Because Supes can break through spacetime just by accelerating fast enough or can just travel in time to resist the timestop. Also, Hit to the best of my knowledge can't resist Supes' mind control.


How can he travel in time or accelerate if he's stop in time though?



Sir Jogga said:


> Intangibility, Mind-Control, Time-Travel, Energy Absorbtion, etc
> 
> Way more hax, bruh


Yes those hax have already been discused and Hit doesn't really fight energy a rare exception in DB


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> How can he travel in time or accelerate if he's stop in time though?


I don't think you are aware of the huge descrpency between Hit and Superman.

Mostly, how Hit is essentially a _statue _compared to Superman in regards to speed.

Hit won't do anything about it because he's not fast enough to do anything about it


Worldbreaker said:


> Yes those hax have already been discused and Hit doesn't really fight energy a rare exception in DB


???

That's ok?


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## SSBMonado (Dec 19, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> First off Superman is 1.90 meters.
> 
> Secondly he wasn't two body lengths away.
> 
> It was literally at the center


So I take it what's happening here is that that golden thingy is what is generating the big bang, and that Supes is flying into it to destroy the thingy and thereby stop the big bang?

OK, 'couple of problems: 
From what I can see, this isn't being portrayed as a single explosion, but a more continuous affair. Supes is already being pushed back the force before making it to the thingy, meaning if this was a proper big bang, then destroying the gizzmo would have accomplished precisely fuck-all, as the bang would already be happening anyways. It's like destroying the fuse of a bomb while parts of the bomb's hull are already flying past your face. 

So it might be that the golden gizzmo is generating the same amount of energy as the big bang, just spread over an amount of time. Well given that Supes succeeded in stopping the gizzmo before irreversible harm could come to the universe, it stands to reason that the vast majority of the energy was yet to be released. 
And even IF Supes only made it in the nick of time, the fact remains that the gizzmo was releasing energy over a period of time, meaning the vast majority would still have been released before Supes made it to the center. 



Sir Jogga said:


> I don't think you are aware of the huge descrpency between Hit and Superman.
> 
> Mostly, how Hit is essentially a _statue _compared to Superman in regards to speed.
> 
> ...


So Supes starts punching Hit a bunch, which does fuck-all. Then - speed gap or not - Hit will realize that something is kicking him in the balls, time stop and one-shot Supes into Narnia. Supes can only take this if he opens with hax that can put Hit down. If he swings into melee first, which he seems to do most of the time, he loses.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> So I take it what's happening here is that that golden thingy is what is generating the big bang, and that Supes is flying into it to destroy the thingy and thereby stop the big bang?
> 
> OK, 'couple of problems:
> From what I can see, this isn't being portrayed as a single explosion, but a more continuous affair. Supes is already being pushed back the force before making it to the thingy, meaning if this was a proper big bang, then destroying the gizzmo would have accomplished precisely fuck-all, as the bang would already be happening anyways. It's like destroying the fuse of a bomb while parts of the bomb's hull are already flying past your face.
> ...


The pyramid Supes destroyed wasn't generating the Big Bang. It was right there right as the universe was created and it was powering the other pyramids. The pyramids' function was to try and erase the concept of heroes and rewrite the timeline completely without them. So even if what you say is true, Supes still destroyed something that tanked that Big Bang right as it went off.


SSBMonado said:


> So Supes starts punching Hit a bunch, which does fuck-all. Then - speed gap or not - Hit will realize that something is kicking him in the balls, time stop and one-shot Supes into Narnia. Supes can only take this if he opens with hax that can put Hit down. If he swings into melee first, which he seems to do most of the time, he loses.


Septillions vs quadrillions dude. That's a lot of fucking magnitudes of difference there.

Supes can unleash tenakiloFOE level punches on Hit millions to billions of times faster than Hit can perceive.


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 19, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> I don't think you are aware of the huge descrpency between Hit and Superman.
> 
> Mostly, how Hit is essentially a _statue _compared to Superman in regards to speed.
> 
> ...



I'm aware but Hit is durable enough to tank Supermans attacks he just time stops and is pretty much over and I commented the hit not using energy attack because of supermans energy absoption


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> So I take it what's happening here is that that golden thingy is what is generating the big bang, and that Supes is flying into it to destroy the thingy and thereby stop the big bang?


_No._


SSBMonado said:


> So Supes starts punching Hit a bunch, which does fuck-all. Then - speed gap or not - Hit will realize that something is kicking him in the balls, time stop and one-shot Supes into Narnia. Supes can only take this if he opens with hax that can put Hit down. If he swings into melee first, which he seems to do most of the time, he loses.


kek

Again. Hit is a statue to Superman. He's literally dwarfing characters much more powerful than Hit in sheer speed.

Hes not doing anything. He literally gets blitzed in this situation.


Worldbreaker said:


> I'm aware but Hit is durable enough to tank Supermans attacks he just time stops and is pretty much over and I commented the hit not using energy attack because of supermans energy absoption


Implying Superman somehow letting him react to the blitz. There is a huge gap in speed between the two.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> The pyramid Supes destroyed wasn't generating the Big Bang. It was right there right as the universe was created and it was powering the other pyramids. The pyramids' function was to try and erase the concept of heroes and rewrite the timeline completely without them. So even if what you say is true, Supes still destroyed something that tanked that Big Bang right as it went off.


Exactly what is so hard to understand, here?
Obviously the pyramid Supes busted did NOT tank the big bang. if it did, then there wouldn't have been a big bang for Supes to stop. The pyramid tanked a PORTION of the big bang, but not the entirety of it, just like Supes.



Sir Jogga said:


> Again. Hit is a statue to Superman. He's literally dwarfing characters much more powerful than Hit in sheer speed.
> 
> Hes not doing anything. He literally gets blitzed in this situation.


Supes being a lot faster doesn't suddenly turn Hit into a literal statue. Super might be able to throw a couple billion punches before it happens, but Hit will eventually process the thought "I need to time stop this" and do it, at which point Supes is hosed. 
So again, Supes can only take this if he uses his hax. If he doesn't, he gets time stopped and one-shot.


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> Supes being a lot faster doesn't suddenly turn Hit into a literal statue. Super might be able to throw a couple billion punches before it happens, but Hit will eventually process the thought "I need to time stop this" and do it, at which point Supes is hosed.
> So again, Supes can only take this if he uses his hax. If he doesn't, he gets time stopped and one-shot.


It's the same as pitting a Relevistic character vs a MFTL character and expecting any meaningful retaliation to speak of.

Hit can fight back? Sure. But he'll be blitzed before he can even do anything about it.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> Exactly what is so hard to understand, here?
> Obviously the pyramid Supes busted did NOT tank the big bang. if it did, then there wouldn't have been a big bang for Supes to stop. The pyramid tanked a PORTION of the big bang, but not the entirety of it, just like Supes.


Supes wasn't stopping the Big Bang. He was trying to destroy the pyramid because it was going to try and erase him from the timeline. I just explained that to you and you didn't listen.

I'll repeat myself. The pyramid was right there at the moment of creation. The Big Bang's point of origin went off right next to it. It and other pyramids were rewriting the timeline. Supes destroyed one at the moment of creation that was causing timeline anomalies. Is this clear now?


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 19, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Implying Superman somehow letting him react to the blitz. There is a huge gap in speed between the two.


It doesn't matter that he can get the first strike when the opponent can tank his punches and Superman has no way to know Hit can stop time


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> It doesn't matter that he can get the first strike when the opponent can tank his punches and Superman has no way to know Hit can stop time


It's not about the fact that Superman gets the first punch. You're not listening.

Superman is _far_ too fast for Hit to do anything about it.

And lets get one thing clear.

If Superman suddenly turnes out to _not_ be Universal Level+(which he is), Multi-Galaxy level is still comparable enough to do _some damage_, given if it has something else to tip the scales. And lo and behold, Superman is not only so fast that Hit looks like a stone sculpture of a snail, but there are also levels of Hax Pre-Crisis has that can cause some _meaningful_ inconvinience.


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## Nep Heart (Dec 19, 2016)

Some of you people are acting like Superman is mentally retarded or something. It won't be long before he begins to realize brute force won't even tickle Hit and resort to a new tactic, which means he will whip out the hax to test a new approach in the fight. Given the massive speed difference, it'll be as if Superman was given decades to figure out that he WILL try to experiment with a wide variety of approaches to see what will bring down Hit. 

  The enormous speed differences really does matter if Superman is allowed hax here to experiment with.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Supes wasn't stopping the Big Bang. He was trying to destroy the pyramid because it was going to try and erase him from the timeline. I just explained that to you and you didn't listen.
> 
> I'll repeat myself. The pyramid was right there at the moment of creation. The Big Bang's point of origin went off right next to it. It and other pyramids were rewriting the timeline. Supes destroyed one at the moment of creation that was causing timeline anomalies. Is this clear now?


You're the one who isn't listening. You can't possibly tank an explosion in its entirety without completely stopping said explosion. If every single joule of the big bang went into the pyramid and got tanked by it, then the big bang would have ended right then and there.
The very fact that energy radiated out to push against and hurt Superman means that the pyramid did NOT tank the whole big bang. 

Do you get it now? If a wave rolls towards me, a wall is in the way and said wall completely tanks the wave, then no water will reach me. 
Ditto, if the Pyramid had tanked the entire big bang, then no energy would have reached Supes. 



Sir Jogga said:


> If Superman suddenly turnes out to _not_ be Universal Level+(which he is), Multi-Galaxy level is still comparable enough to do _some damage_


If Hit was only baseline universal, perhaps. Alas he isn't. He should be upwards of 4000 times baseline universal (SS1-3 multipliers x the DB universe being 10 times the size of ours). We're not using these multipliers, but they should still give you an idea about how ludicrously casual the universe level of DBS top tiers is.


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> If Hit was only baseline universal, perhaps. Alas he isn't. He should be upwards of 4000 times baseline universal (SS1-3 multipliers x t*he DB universe being 10 times the size of ours*). We're not using these multipliers, but they should still give you an idea about how ludicrously casual the universe level of DBS top tiers is.


DC is quite, _quite _larger than our universe too, if you catch my drift...


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> The very fact that energy radiated out to push against and hurt Superman means that the pyramid did NOT tank the whole big bang.


Doesn't work like that.

Tanking a Universal attack is not the same as cancelling it's energy

This is a question of durability, not power.


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 19, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> It's not about the fact that Superman gets the first punch. You're not listening.
> 
> Superman is _far_ too fast for Hit to do anything about it.
> 
> ...


By your logic someone like red Goku can do something to Hit wich is laughable, we don't know how above Hit is from universal but seeing how many universal+ characters are scrubs and wouldn't be on Hits radar or a threat to him makes me think he's way above Supes, and I'm sure you have read PC Supes and you should know the first thing Superman does in a fight is punch his way to victory then if that doesn't work he makes a strategy by exploiting a weakness or using a weird power he pulls out his ass, in that little moment that he's waiting to know if the punches work or he's planing a weird strategy Hit time-stops and he's screwed, he doesn't use all his power and hax at the same time, the only hax Superman has on his disponsal that is relevant is his time traveling hax in all honesty the other hax are either stupid or useless in this specific fight

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Kaaant (Dec 19, 2016)

How is multi-galaxy supposed to hurt someone that shits on prior versions of himself that are universe level?


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> the only hax Superman has on his disponsal that is relevant is his time traveling hax in all honesty the other hax are either stupid or useless in this specific fight


Hypnosis says hi


Worldbreaker said:


> By your logic someone like red Goku can do something to Hit wich is laughable, we don't know how above Hit is from universal


Hit can be hurt by SSJ God Goku. However, that's only if Hit actually lets him hit him while standing still and doesn't use his hax.


Worldbreaker said:


> nd I'm sure you have read PC Supes and you should know the first thing Superman does in a fight is punch his way to victory then if that doesn't


Again. You're acting as if he's somehow not dwarfing Hit with his speed... And Hax...

Also Silver Age is a thematic enigma to essentially everyone in this damn thread(Including me). Superman at that era wasn't just one of the strongest being in his Universe. He was restricted by the Comic's Code at the time. So nearly every issue had to be confined entirely with these strict and weird rules. Anything goes with Silver Age. It's not just one note. It's the extreme opposite


Kaaant said:


> How is multi-galaxy supposed to hurt someone that shits on prior versions of himself that are universe level?


He wont their speed are equal. Or comparable

Also he's not just Multi-Galaxy. Just putting an example that the Multi-Galaxy will _eventually _do _some _level given enough time.


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## Gordo solos (Dec 19, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Hit can be hurt by SSJ God Goku.


Not really, there's a considerable gap between God and Blue and Hit is at least in the latter's tier. The only time SSJG Goku can fight Hit is in the manga, and Hit's downplayed as hell in that


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> Not really, there's a considerable gap between God and Blue and Hit is at least in the latter's tier. The only time SSJG Goku can fight Hit is in the manga, and Hit's downplayed as hell in that





Sir Jogga said:


> However, that's only if Hit actually lets him hit him while standing still and doesn't use his hax.


Special circumstances^^^ He obviously can't hurt Hit as is.


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Let it be known that I'm not saying that SSJ God Goku can fight Hit on any equal basis.

I'm saying that SSJ God Goku can _hurt _him, given he has enough leeway for Hit to not fight back at all.


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## Gordo solos (Dec 19, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Special circumstances^^^ He obviously can't hurt Hit as is.


You don't get what I'm saying. Even without his time-skip, he's still strong and tough enough to fight against SSJB's, and that's _prior_ to his improvement

Even without his hax and just standing still, Hit really shouldn't be threaten by SSJG

If he dropped his guard down, then probably


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 19, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Hypnosis says hi[/spoiler]
> His mind shenanigans suck to be honest he struggles to use them he's no Profesor X
> 
> 
> ...


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> 'm going to disagree on this one by simple logic and the fact that a holding back Hit received many attacks from blue Goku and didn't have any real damage on him not to mention instances like how Golden frieza couldn't hurt Blue vegeta and probably other examples I'm missing





Gordo solos said:


> You don't get what I'm saying. Even without his time-skip, he's still strong and tough enough to fight against SSJB's, and that's _prior_ to his improvement
> 
> Even without his hax and just standing still, Hit really shouldn't be threaten by SSJG
> 
> *If he dropped his guard down, then probably*


Basically what I was stating, or atleast trying to say


Worldbreaker said:


> He's not really an enigma, I've read a bunch of his comics and the way I describe him is exactly how he fights, I haven't read all though but I'm really confident on what I'm saying


Not really. He's analysed fights and used his various other powers like Heat Vision and Ice Breath and some other Crazy shit.

You're really underselling the absurdity of the Silver Age


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> You don't get what I'm saying. Even without his time-skip, he's still strong and tough enough to fight against SSJB's, and that's _prior_ to his improvement
> 
> Even without his hax and just standing still, Hit really shouldn't be threaten by SSJG
> 
> If he dropped his guard down, then probably


Also, awesome signature dude

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> You're the one who isn't listening. You can't possibly tank an explosion in its entirety without completely stopping said explosion. If every single joule of the big bang went into the pyramid and got tanked by it, then the big bang would have ended right then and there.
> The very fact that energy radiated out to push against and hurt Superman means that the pyramid did NOT tank the whole big bang.
> 
> Do you get it now? If a wave rolls towards me, a wall is in the way and said wall completely tanks the wave, then no water will reach me.
> Ditto, if the Pyramid had tanked the entire big bang, then no energy would have reached Supes.


Your post implied that you still thought the pyramid was fueling the Big Bang so that's what I took it to mean. Do not blame me for misunderstanding you, next time please be more clear.

Also, as Jogga said, the pyramid _tanked_ it, it didn't _nullify_ it. Also, to my understanding, the Big Bang contained the entirety of the universe's mass-energy as well as a fuckton of heat (trillions if I'm not mistaken) when it was just a point. Considering the DCU has a diameter of 200 _trillion _light years, that's a lot of fucking mass-energy and heat in that single point. Even if you are correct, that still means it tanked a huge amount of that energy just by being near where the Big Bang went off and staying there while it was expanding. They tanked the Big Bang, end of story.


SSBMonado said:


> If Hit was only baseline universal, perhaps. Alas he isn't. He should be upwards of 4000 times baseline universal (SS1-3 multipliers x the DB universe being 10 times the size of ours). We're not using these multipliers, but they should still give you an idea about how ludicrously casual the universe level of DBS top tiers is.


Here's the thing though, if you want to bring power scaling into this, guess what Supes scales to? Captain Marvel beating a supervillain during COIE who had the power of the Big Bang and those two are roughly equal in Pre-Crisis. Since the Big Bang created a universe that's 200 trillion light-years in diameter as well as Mike calcing Imperiex's Big Bang to be in the tenakiloFOE range, that's way above where Hit should be.


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## Gordo solos (Dec 19, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Also, awesome signature dude


Thank you, fellow EEnE fan


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Ditto what Jogga said.

The only way that sig could be more quality is if it had Johnny Bravo in it


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## Volt manta (Dec 19, 2016)

Not too much for this match-up, but SSMonado seems to be making some sense here. Assuming being encompassed by any explosion of any force is equal to tanking the energy of the whole is illogical. Even if it was right in front of whoever's face, the very nature of an explosion is omni-directional expansion, and surface area diminishes the amount of energy received by a substantial amount. And to argue against that would imply one of two things:

A ) That the explosion in question was not expanding uniformly. In which case, it's either not an explosion (controlled charges exist that deliver more energy in a particular direction, but those require specific specifications), or it has to be proven that the energy was being shaped in some way so as to deliver more force in one particular direction than any other.

or

B ) That the explosion in question is releasing every ounce of its total energy over its entire surface for its entire duration. As in, tanking an island level explosion would require you to be island level no matter what portion of the blast you were hit by. Which should be completely insane for very obvious reasons.

Bottom line, even if that explosion was Universal (which I still don't think has been figured out, and i'm not pushing that), the amount of energy received by a character of Supes size is going to be far, far less than the total energy given off by the force of the explosion. And unless anyone can somehow prove that Superman tanked more than a portion of the total blast, than more feats are needed. Because this isn't even going to come close to the actual force of the blast, distance be dramatically damned.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Volt manta said:


> Not too much for this match-up, but SSMonado seems to be making some sense here. Assuming being encompassed by any explosion of any force is equal to tanking the energy of the whole is illogical. Even if it was right in front of whoever's face, the very nature of an explosion is omni-directional expansion, and surface area diminishes the amount of energy received by a substantial amount. And to argue against that would imply one of two things:
> 
> A ) That the explosion in question was not expanding uniformly. In which case, it's either not an explosion (controlled charges exist that deliver more energy in a particular direction, but those require specific specifications), or it has to be proven that the energy was being shaped in some way so as to deliver more force in one particular direction than any other.
> 
> ...


It wasn't an explosion, it was the *Big Bang. *Supes and the Forgotten Heroes went back to the origin of the universe to stop an alien built pyramid from screwing up the timeline. Supes flew right into the center of the Big Bang and destroyed an object that was right in the center of the Big Bang when it was a singularity. That pyramid tanked all the mass-energy and heat of a 200 trillion light year sized Big Bang.


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Volt manta said:


> Not too much for this match-up, but SSMonado seems to be making some sense here. Assuming being encompassed by any explosion of any force is equal to tanking the energy of the whole is illogical. Even if it was right in front of whoever's face, the very nature of an explosion is omni-directional expansion, and surface area diminishes the amount of energy received by a substantial amount. And to argue against that would imply one of two things:
> 
> A ) That the explosion in question was not expanding uniformly. In which case, it's either not an explosion (controlled charges exist that deliver more energy in a particular direction, but those require specific specifications), or it has to be proven that the energy was being shaped in some way so as to deliver more force in one particular direction than any other.
> 
> ...


Not really the fact that Superman was inside the thing, but rather the fact that he destroyed something that was able to tank it.

The square root law is followed. Not scaling off of Superman flying through the Big Bang


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> It wasn't an explosion, it was the *Big Bang. *Supes and the Forgotten Heroes went back to the origin of the universe to stop an alien built pyramid from screwing up the timeline. Supes flew right into the center of the Big Bang and destroyed an object that was right in the center of the Big Bang when it was a singularity. That pyramid tanked all the mass-energy and heat of a 200 trillion light year sized Big Bang.



Fucking ninja'd again


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## Gordo solos (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Ditto what Jogga said.
> 
> The only way that sig could be more quality is if it had Johnny Bravo in it

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Fucking ninja'd again


Sorry, Jogga, I don't mean to


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

That sexy sumbitch man.
*
DO THE MONKEY WITH ME!*


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 19, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Basically what I was stating, or atleast trying to say
> 
> Not really. He's analysed fights and used his various other powers like Heat Vision and Ice Breath and some other Crazy shit.
> 
> You're really underselling the absurdity of the Silver Age


Well anyone can basically hurt anyone if he let his guard down, Goku almost died by a scrub with a laser who isn't even Zarbon level 

I never claim he won't use his other powers I'm just saying most of them are useless

Reactions: Dislike 4


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Sorry, Jogga, I don't mean to


Too late... 


Blakk Jakk said:


> That sexy sumbitch man.
> *
> DO THE MONKEY WITH ME!*


@Gordo solos 
I found out that people like paring him with 
Samurai Jack

*Spoiler*: __ 



 case and point

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> @Gordo solos
> I found out that people like paring him with
> Samurai Jack
> 
> ...


I approve.

For some reason, Johnny kinda reminds me of Mad Max and Jack a bit of Roger Smith from Big O in that picture.


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I approve.
> 
> For some reason, Johnny kinda reminds me of Mad Max and Jack a bit of Roger Smith from Big O in that picture.


The art is actually really awesome

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> The art is actually really awesome


Needs to happen.

It'd be the best damn thing Cartoon Network aired in a _loooooooong_ time.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Also made this at Ampchu's behest

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Nep Heart (Dec 19, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Also made this at Ampchu's behest



 The TRUE outcome of this match-up given the OP unintentionally gave Superman a few decades of prep by not equalizing speed.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Blocky (Dec 19, 2016)

What a dick lol


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## The Runner (Dec 19, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> The TRUE outcome of this match-up given the OP unintentionally gave Superman a few decades of prep by not equalizing speed.


Equalize speed
Restrict Time Travel

Better give Superman some Kryptonite boots while we are at it


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## Nep Heart (Dec 19, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Equalize speed
> Restrict Time Teavel
> 
> Better give Superman some Kryptonite boots while we are at it



 The more restrictions people put on Superman in this match-up, the more they are admitting defeat over the fact that Superman wins in the end.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 19, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> The more restrictions people put on Superman in this match-up, the more they are admitting defeat over the fact that Superman wins in the end.


Who's getting Hit and his new wife the wedding cake


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## Toaa (Dec 20, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Mostly.
> 
> Again. This is the tip of the iceberg.
> 
> ...


100 galaxies are quite literally not worth mentioning and they do not really support universal supes.


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## Toaa (Dec 20, 2016)

Also the equivalent to time travel in dragonball would create another timeline and not the one where hit is.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 20, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Not really the fact that Superman was inside the thing, but rather the fact that he destroyed something that was able to tank it.


Again, pretty sure that isn't how energy works. The very fact that energy was still being expelled by the big bang proves that the pyramid did not tank the entirety of it. 
I concede that the pyramid was close to the big bang's center and hence tanked quite a bit of energy, but it still shouldn't be close to the entirety of it.


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## Toaa (Dec 20, 2016)

Also how does a single feat in 40 years worth of issues is treated as an accurate depiction.

Because with the magic dust he needed seconds to cross a universe which would peg him at most quintillions(that was why i said quintillions vs septillions)and many feats are as you said unquantible with time travel only needing a speed just above light speed.


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> Again, pretty sure that isn't how energy works. The very fact that energy was still being expelled by the big bang proves that the pyramid did not tank the entirety of it.
> I concede that the pyramid was close to the big bang's center and hence tanked quite a bit of energy, but it still shouldn't be close to the entirety of it.


Err. It does.

Bullets bounce off Superman, don't they?

The energy doesn't suddenly stop because somebody tanks it. That's not how tanking works.

Same with Ki blasts.


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Also the equivalent to time travel in dragonball would create another timeline and not the one where hit is


Cool. But it doesn't work that way in DC... especially with Superman's Time Travel 


Toaa said:


> Also how does a single feat in 40 years worth of issues is treated as an accurate depiction.
> 
> Because with the magic dust he needed seconds to cross a universe which would peg him at most quintillions(that was why i said quintillions vs septillions)and many feats are as you said unquantible with time travel only needing a speed just above light speed.


Because it's not an inconsistent representation of what he can do? Because Pre-Crisis has consistently been portrayed as such?

Also, the flying to the universe casually is definitely higher. Not to mention he's casually done so before. And better.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Dec 20, 2016)

So DC's rules would take priority over DB when time travel is concerned? Why?


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> So DC's rules would take priority over DB when time travel is concerned? Why?


Not talking about priorities. I'm talking about the fact that Superman's Time Travel doesn't work that way.

He's the one implying that one should take presidence over the other.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> So DC's rules would take priority over DB when time travel is concerned? Why?


I don't think that's what Jogga was implying. Just that Toaa shouldn't mention that in relation to how Superman's time travel powers work.

Besides, rule of equivalence states that neither universe's rules and settings override the other which is what Toaa ignored by bringing that up.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Not talking about priorities. I'm talking about the fact that Superman's Time Travel doesn't work that way.
> 
> He's the one implying that one should take presidence over the other.


Ninja'd me 

Oh well, I deserve it this time.


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Ninja'd me
> 
> Oh well, I deserve it this time.


It's not worth it anymore 

We more ninjas than the entire Naruto franchise


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> It's not worth it anymore
> 
> We more ninjas than the entire Naruto franchise


Whenever there's a post repeating what the other guy said, there's always someone who can help


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Whenever there's a post repeating what the other guy said, there's always someone who can help

Reactions: Like 1


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## SSBMonado (Dec 20, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Err. It does.
> 
> Bullets bounce off Superman, don't they?
> 
> ...


Show me evidence of the energy having been deflected by the pyramid. 
Besides, where are you getting the idea that the pyramid was at the EXACT center of the big bang to begin with? All Superman says is that it is "somewhere in that blinding light," and that he has to let his "instinct" guide him. If the damn thing was in the center of the explosion, you'd think Supes would have had a much easier time finding it.

But even if you assume that it WAS as close to the center as it could possibly be, what does this even matter? Unless the epicenter of the big bang was right in the center of the structure itself - which is neither supported by the visuals nor possible at all - the vast majority of the energy would still have missed it.


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## Blocky (Dec 20, 2016)

Still ninja'd you guys first


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> Show me evidence of the energy having been deflected by the pyramid.


Jogga doesn't have to because you misunderstood his point. As usual.


SSBMonado said:


> Besides, where are you getting the idea that the pyramid was at the EXACT center of the big bang to begin with? All Superman says is that it is "somewhere in that blinding light," and that he has to let his "instinct" guide him. If the damn thing was in the center of the explosion, you'd think Supes would have had a much easier time finding it.


You didn't read the scans. Superman states, "And the gravity...Its increasing! All gravity's centered right here...Right at this spot...right at this moment!"

Seems crystal clear to me that Supes made it to the center of the Big Bang because the pyramid was right there.

Also Supes knew where it was, he was just getting blinded by the light and the gravity was getting extremely intense for him. You'd know this if you actually read the scans.


SSBMonado said:


> But even if you assume that it WAS as close to the center as it could possibly be, what does this even matter? Unless the epicenter of the big bang was right in the center of the structure itself - which is neither supported by the visuals nor possible at all - the vast majority of the energy would still have missed it.


It was in the singularity, the point where all gravity, heat and the mass-energy of a universe that's 200 trillion light years in diameter is all condensed. That's a pretty big distinction there. It's not like it was just floating around as the Big Bang was expanding, it stayed right where the Big Bang originated and Supes flew past the expansion and made it right to the pyramid to destroy it.


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

Blocky said:


> Still ninja'd you guys first





SSBMonado said:


> Show me evidence of the energy having been deflected by the pyramid.
> Besides, where are you getting the idea that the pyramid was at the EXACT center of the big bang to begin with? All Superman says is that it is "somewhere in that blinding light," and that he has to let his "instinct" guide him. If the damn thing was in the center of the explosion, you'd think Supes would have had a much easier time finding it.
> 
> But even if you assume that it WAS as close to the center as it could possibly be, what does this even matter? Unless the epicenter of the big bang was right in the center of the structure itself - which is neither supported by the visuals nor possible at all - the vast majority of the energy would still have missed it.


This conversation seems far too dragged on to give a complete wall-of-text answer to a simple question.

Superman had trouble finding the thing while inside? Not really. Not sure why you state this. He said that the light might blind him, at any rate so even with that flimsy question there is a perfectly coherent answer.

Not only that, but it's been made marginally clear that the thing was at the epicenter of the explosion. Superman even stated this in the panel, iirc.

Not only that, but your argument that somehow the energy wouldn't be expelled at all has shifted to the square root law again. Something we already made clear.

The Thing stood at the center of the Big Bang unfazed. Superman managed to destroy it regardless.

You want to argue that unless you're stopping the entire explosion, you're not tanking it, be my guest. But nearly all the calcs here go against you on that.


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## xenos5 (Dec 20, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I don't think that's what Jogga was implying. Just that Toaa shouldn't mention that in relation to how Superman's time travel powers work.
> 
> Besides, rule of equivalence states that neither universe's rules and settings override the other which is what Toaa ignored by bringing that up.



But since the setting wasn't specified and the OBD default for threads where the setting isn't listed is the hyperbolic time chamber wouldn't that mean this is taking place in the DB universe so the time travel rules for that verse should apply?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> But since the setting wasn't specified and the OBD default for threads where the setting isn't listed is the hyperbolic time chamber wouldn't that mean this is taking place in the DB universe so the time travel rules for that verse should apply?


Not really. The Hyperbolic Time Chamber is more of an example of a neutral setting than a hard rule. It's always assumed to be a neutral setting unless specified otherwise like X character enters Y verse or something like that.

...unless of course you're making a joke and I just missed it.


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> But since the setting wasn't specified and the OBD default for threads where the setting isn't listed is the hyperbolic time chamber wouldn't that mean this is taking place in the DB universe so the time travel rules for that verse should apply?


Depends if the rules of Superman's Time Travel work as they used to
Now that's a question 

Even so, it's not really relevant.

The Idea of him using the Time Travel is for BFR'ing Hit, something that can still be done

And OP already specified that he wasn't using it


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## SSBMonado (Dec 20, 2016)

I'm pretty sure a singularity is only a singularity if it's got an infinite amount of energy compressed in an infinitely small volume. 
By that very definition, the pyramid couldn't have been in the epicenter considering it has a fucking volume. 

So the most you can say is that it was right next to the singularity. The visual in the scan makes it look like the epicenter was some distance behind the pyramid, but even if you assume that it was literally next to, as in _literally touching the side of the pyramid, _well over half the energy would STILL have missed it.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> I'm pretty sure a singularity is only a singularity if it's got an infinite amount of energy compressed in an infinitely small volume.
> By that very definition, the pyramid couldn't have been in the epicenter considering it has a fucking volume.
> 
> So the most you can say is that it was right next to the singularity. The visual in the scan makes it look like the epicenter was some distance behind the pyramid, but even if you assume that it was literally next to, as in _literally touching the side of the pyramid, _well over half the energy would STILL have missed it.


Well, okay then, that's still in the tenakiloFOE range which is _WAY_ above universe level.

Granted, I disagree but if you're correct, you're still not downgrading that feat to multi-galaxy or whatever you may think it is.


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> I'm pretty sure a singularity is only a singularity if it's got an infinite amount of energy compressed in an infinitely small volume.
> By that very definition, the pyramid couldn't have been in the epicenter considering it has a fucking volume.


Welcome to fiction.

Population? Every absurd thing you can think of

Also, the comic states it's in the epicenter.

And really the damn thing was unfazed by the Big Bang. 

A bigger Big Bang than our Big Bang.

And Superman destroyed it.


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## XImpossibruX (Dec 20, 2016)

Just wanted the first reply on the next page. 

Either way, what's the consensus after 7 pages, or we still in flavor town?


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## Crackle (Dec 20, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Just wanted the first reply on the next page.
> 
> Either way, what's the consensus after 7 pages, or we still in flavor town?


I believe the consensus is in PC Supes favor for
>being massively faster
>being Slightly stronger
>having A fuckton more hax


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## Sigismund (Dec 20, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Just wanted the first reply on the next page.
> 
> Either way, what's the consensus after 7 pages, or we still in flavor town?


I think most people came to the consensus that PC Superman wins as Hit can't hit him about 5 pages ago, and this turned into a discussion thread about a feat


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Hit is immeasurably above universe level (the DB universe is 10x the size of the RL universe or so I've heard) but no one has demonstrated that Hit can punch even in the tenaFOE range like Supes can let alone tenakiloFOE range so I'd say Supes has the strength advantage.


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## Sigismund (Dec 20, 2016)

Crackle said:


> I believe the consensus is in PC Supes favor for
> >being massively faster
> >being Slightly stronger
> >having A fuckton more hax


Slightly stronger?
The fuck?
I'm pretty sure Hit has the DC/Dura edge, hence why speed was a big deal


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

Crackle said:


> I believe the consensus is in PC Supes favor for
> >being massively faster
> >*being Slightly stronger*
> >having A fuckton more hax


No consensus on that. Arguing about that currently


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## XImpossibruX (Dec 20, 2016)

The fact that we just got a bunch of different replies when asked about a consensus indicates a consensus wasn't reached


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> The fact that we just got a bunch of different replies when asked about a consensus indicates a consensus wasn't reached


gee ya think
Imma salty beyotch


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

I'm still waiting for the DB side to demonstrate that Hit's punches can hit as hard as the DCU Big Bang and that's going to be hard to prove.

The characters I know for certain that can beat Supes for sure are Giygas Zamasu and Zeno. There may be others but I'm becoming convinced Hit can't do it.


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## Crackle (Dec 20, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


>


He is though. Hit nor anyone else has shown to have strength up there with PC Superman. Especially considering the fact that there's not much universe level feats going for Hit.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Dec 20, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I'm still waiting for the DB side to demonstrate that Hit's punches can hit as hard as the DCU Big Bang and that's going to be hard to prove.



What about base Goku punching an sphere made out of his and Beerus ki containing more energy than the blast that was going to destroy the universe?


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

Crackle said:


> He is though. Hit nor anyone else has shown to have strength up there with PC Superman. Especially considering the fact that there's not much universe level feats going for Hit.


It's due to powerscailing.

Hit beating SSB Goku is in that ballpark, as far as I'm concerned


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## Nep Heart (Dec 20, 2016)

Tbf, Hit can powerscale to the universal shockwave feat early SSJG Goku and casual Beerus contributed to that @Agent9149 calced at like 72 ninaFOE. However, even that would still be well below PC Superman's feat even if you take a small fraction from that suped up Big Bang, which is hundreds of tenakiloFOE.


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## Crackle (Dec 20, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> What about base Goku punching an sphere made out of his and Beerus ki containing more energy than the blast that was going to destroy the universe?


gotta clip to this?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> What about base Goku punching an sphere made out of his and Beerus ki containing more energy than the blast that was going to destroy the universe?


DB's 72 ninaFOE against DC's 198.9166502 tenakiloFOE.

Now even if we times that by 4000 like SSBMonado suggested, it still comes up short.


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## Crackle (Dec 20, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> Tbf, Hit can powerscale to the universal shockwave feat early SSJG Goku and casual Beerus contributed to that @Agent9149 calced at like 72 ninaFOE. However, even that would still be well below PC Superman's feat even if you take a small fraction from that suped up Big Bang, which is hundreds of tenakiloFOE.


That's not a universe level feat for multiple reasons
>The fact that it was more of a chain reaction effect
>The fact that it would take multiple hits
>The fact that elder kai's idea of destroying the universe is life wiping in that universe


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## Nep Heart (Dec 20, 2016)

Crackle said:


> That's not a universe level feat for multiple reasons
> >The fact that it was more of a chain reaction effect
> >The fact that it would take multiple hits
> >The fact that elder kai's idea of destroying the universe is life wiping in that universe



 Just playing Devil's Advocate here.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Dec 20, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> DB's 72 ninaFOE against DC's 198.9166502 tenakiloFOE.
> 
> Now even if we times that by 4000 like SSBMonado suggested, it still comes up short.



I'm talking about the blast Beerus nullified, it was going to reduce everyting to nothing (the mortal realm, Kaioshin realm as well as the other world). I don't think there is a calc for it. It was actually seen engulfing the Kaioshin realm outside the universe so it clearly had universal+ range going by visuals.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> I'm talking about the blast Beerus nullified, it was going to reduce everyting to nothing (the mortal realm, Kaioshin realm as well as the other world). I don't think there is a calc for it.


Not sure what to make of that really but I'm having extreme doubts that it hits the necessary threshold to even mildly annoy Supes.

The DCU is 200 trillion light years in diameter which is 2.12765957e12 times the size of the RL universe. The blast Beerus nullified would have to be able to affect that much to damage Supes.


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> Just playing Devil's Advocate here.


Atleast you are not a...

Divell's advocate

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Atleast you are not a...
> 
> Divell's advocate


You proud of what you just posted?


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## Toaa (Dec 20, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Cool. But it doesn't work that way in DC... especially with Superman's Time Travel
> 
> Because it's not an inconsistent representation of what he can do? Because Pre-Crisis has consistently been portrayed as such?
> 
> Also, the flying to the universe casually is definitely higher. Not to mention he's casually done so before. And better.


Consistently?pc superman is as consistent as the government.Thats why im asking for them.Comics are inconsistent due to their time span.But pc superman is one of the most inconsistent with powers popping in every issue.And you are basing it on 1 feat for dc and 1 for speed meanwhile the other speed for him reaching another universe in seconds is yes quintillions.


Also how should time travel work in this case?That he somehow overides the rule of how time travel works in db verse.At best it should be specified by tue op.


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## Crackle (Dec 20, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Atleast you are not a...
> 
> Divell's advocate


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## Montanz (Dec 20, 2016)

Was the pre crisis verse the same size as the current Dc verse tho?


At this point i'm more interested in the discussion of wether or not tanking a big bang would be universal+.

If the universe still comes to exist, wouldn't that mean that most of the energy released by the big bang would have missed whoever is tanking it?

 similar to how moving objects come to full halt once they enconter an equivalent opposing force, if the character had actually absorbed all of its energy there would be no universe as the "momentum" of the event would be lost on impact.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Consistently?ps superman is as consistent as the government.Thats why


PC Superman's highest feats come up to universe level as well as the people he powerscales to.

Captain Marvel fought a supervillain during COIE who had the power of the Big Bang so even if you want to discount the Big Bang feat, Supes still has that although that just confirms the tenakiloFOE feat Supes has.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Was the pre crisis verse the same size as the current Dc verse tho?


Jogga thinks so and there's some evidence to suggest that it's the case like Spectre's casual MFTL+ punch.


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## Toaa (Dec 20, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> PC Superman's highest feats come up to universe level as well as the people he powerscales to.
> 
> Captain Marvel fought a supervillain during COIE who had the power of the Big Bang so even if you want to discount the Big Bang feat, Supes still has that although that just confirms the tenakiloFOE feat Supes has.


They are his highest for a reason.Was his hitting with the force of the big bang?Or did he have its energy?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Toaa said:


> They are his highest for a reason.Was his hitting with the force of the big bang?Or did he have its energy?


Captain Marvel? Yeah. He fought a supervillain that had the energies of the Big Bang. He had to have punched with the force of the Big Bang and greater to defeat him as well as tank that guy's punches.


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## Toaa (Dec 20, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Captain Marvel? Yeah. He fought a supervillain that had the energies of the Big Bang. He had to have punched with the force of the Big Bang and greater to defeat him as well as tank that guy's punches.


Asking because an enemy in recent dc comics has the energy of the big bang but does not hit with that much force.

Oh well i take it that pre crisis superman isnt exactly a fams favourite.Not many things of him exist.By the way the universe was only hunders of billions of lightyears in the spectre issue as he stated that due to space being cwrved he crossed all the universe amd hit him in the other side which is not a straight path.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Asking because an enemy in recent dc comics has the energy of the big bang but does not hit with that much force.
> 
> Oh well i take it that pre crisis superman isnt exactly a fams favourite.Not amny things of him exist.


Imperiex? He is the Big Bang or something like that but the issue is once you release his energy, he can't reform himself.

Supes has the strength to tank as well as hit that hard.


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## Crackle (Dec 20, 2016)

Toaa said:


> They are his highest for a reason.Was his hitting with the force of the big bang?Or did he have its energy?


WHat's the TenaKiloFoe from anyway? From what I hear The Big bang is like 30 YottaFoe


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Crackle said:


> WHat's the TenaKiloFoe from anyway? From what I hear The Big bang is like 30 YottaFoe


It's from one of Endless Mike's calc actually. He calced Imperiex's Big Bang.


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## Crackle (Dec 20, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> It's from one of Endless Mike's calc actually. He calced Imperiex's Big Bang.


Might sound inept but wasn't PC Supes replaced by his Post-Crisis duplicate long before Imperiax showed up  in DC?


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## Toaa (Dec 20, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Imperiex? He is the Big Bang or something like that but the issue is once you release his energy, he can't reform himself.
> 
> Supes has the strength to tank as well as hit that hard.


Was the one he fought imperiex or someone other?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Toaa said:


> So captain marvel fought someone that was actually hitting as hard as the big bang?


Well, the villain he was fighting had the power of the Big Bang and Captain Marvel won in the end by overpowering him after an extended fight.


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## Montanz (Dec 20, 2016)

>trusting the wiki



Lets get real now,  a explosion with that energy isn't going to ever destroy anything beyond a couple of clusters at best which is still a far cry from blowing up the universe, as in, blowing the everloving shit out of it with a huge bang that destroys every celestial body inside of it.


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## Toaa (Dec 20, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Well, the villain he was fighting had the power of the Big Bang and Captain Marvel won in the end by overpowering him after an extended fight.


I mean did he have the power of the big bang like imperiex or was he hitting like the big bang.Remember the name?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Endless Mike updates the energy values pretty regularly.

I'm pretty sure he made that page actually.


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## Crackle (Dec 20, 2016)

Montanz said:


> >trusting the wiki
> 
> 
> 
> Lets get real now,  a explosion with that energy isn't going to ever destroy anything beyond a couple of clusters at best which is still a far cry from blowing up the universe, as in, blowing the everloving shit out of it with a huge bang that destroys every celestial body inside of it.


you do realize you can't use stardestroyer or nukemap for explosions that large right?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 20, 2016)

Toaa said:


> I mean did he have the power of the big bang like imperiex or was he hitting like the big bang.Remember the name?


The villain's name was Invincible Man but he only appeared during COIE.

He channeled the energies of the Big Bang.


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## Montanz (Dec 20, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> snip





Crackle said:


> snip



It's not incorrect by the OBD's standards, but the label is a misnomer,  just releasing the equivalent of the mass-energy of the universe is not anywhere near enough to destroy the universe in a conventional way thanks to the inverse-square law, time-space shit aside


Ofc supes and hit are still universal, but because they have enough evidence to corroborate this other than numbers, because if we rely on numbers only their physical might would only be good enough to bust a couple of galaxies at best due to the aforementioned laws (which we probably ignore but whatever).


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> Loldrivell.





Blakk Jakk said:


> You proud of what you just posted?


yes


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Was the pre crisis verse the same size as the current Dc verse tho?


At the time? The same, due to CIOE being a thing.

You'd be surprised on how many aspects of Pre-Crisis the modern writers take.


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 20, 2016)

You guys have to remember that Goku and Beerus were going to destroy more than the universe the kaios were going to go bye bye and they live outside the universe (It can also be argued it was going to destroy the underworld but I'm just going with exactly what we know they were going to destroy)


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## Crackle (Dec 20, 2016)




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## Montanz (Dec 20, 2016)

The actual implication of Goku vs Beerus clash is that it would destroy/anhilate/void everything the universe.
we also get visuals of planets breaking and or disintegrating and the only reason it doesn't happen all at once is because Goku is cancelling most of the energy, whatever is at ninafoes is only the residual energy and the actual destruction without interference would be in the same order of magnitude as the mass energy of the big bang due to inverse-square law.

just for reference, destroying the universe in such a way that an omnidirectional attack would destroy every planet at the edge of the universe the energy becomes 1.0685455972755797e78 joules at origin.

You get those numbers by dividing surface area of an universe sized attack/surface area of earth and multiply by its GBE.


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## Crackle (Dec 20, 2016)

Montanz said:


> The actual implication of Goku vs Beerus clash is that it would destroy/anhilate/void everything the universe.
> we also get visuals of planets breaking and or disintegrating and the only reason it doesn't happen all at once is because *Goku is cancelling most of the energy*, whatever is at ninafoes is only the residual energy and the actual destruction without interference would be in the same order of magnitude as the mass energy of the big bang due to inverse-square law.
> 
> just for reference, destroying the universe in such a way that an omnidirectional attack would destroy every planet at the edge of the universe the energy becomes 1.0685455972755797e78 joules at origin.
> ...


No the reason it didn't happen is because it's not even a universe level feat. It wouldn't have needed multiple hits just to start affecting the universe and it was really more of a reality warping chain reaction since the shockwaves were gradually getting stronger as they spread out.


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## The Runner (Dec 20, 2016)

C-c-c-combo breaker!!!!


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## Montanz (Dec 20, 2016)

I actually spent more time screwing around in the metas than downloading this shit.
Here it is

Basically, Goku was performing an imperfect cancellation from punch 1, the shockwaves are residual energy from that, and them getting stronger the further away they traveled is just a percieved effect.

What would have happened at the end of the super condensed energy clash would have resulted in every "Hoshi" star/planet being destroyed and the universe being turned into a void if Beerus hadn't nullified it as well.


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## Dudebro (Dec 21, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Yeah, but its still pretty sketchy on the mechanisms of such a thing, as it somehow becoming stronger is a huge question mark. Honestly that's Toei just half-assing an explanation as to why the planet wasn't destroyed during the first clash.
> 
> Either way, it still proves that Goku was somewhere close to Universal power
> 
> I think



It never became stronger as it traveled in the first place. Goku was weakening it from the source since punch one like mentioned above but his cancellation maneuver didn't have enough range to reach the rest of the universe hence the damage. Is this illogical and spits in the face or physics and common sense alike? Yes with a solid green loogie. 

But it's clear what the implication was. There wasn't any reality warping shenanigans outside of Goku's attempt to prevent collateral damage. Had he not done that it would have behave like any other universe wide explosion from a kinetic impact would.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 21, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Ok. First off. You guys need to fucking stop bringing up Sword of Superman in this.
> 
> He only used it *once* and that was just so he could _reject _it.
> 
> ...



*Sees the EM signal*

I will point out that Bronze Age Superman once destroyed a device with a single punch that was unharmed by sitting in the middle of the Big Bang. And Bronze Age Superman was officially depowered from his Silver Age self. Just one example.

Not going to bother with any other stuff in the thread as I don't really care, but if any of you have any questions for me, ask away.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 21, 2016)

Endless Mike said:


> *Sees the EM signal*
> 
> I will point out that Bronze Age Superman once destroyed a device with a single punch that was unharmed by sitting in the middle of the Big Bang. And Bronze Age Superman was officially depowered from his Silver Age self. Just one example.
> 
> Not going to bother with any other stuff in the thread as I don't really care, but if any of you have any questions for me, ask away.


Aye, that was during the Sandman Arc.

A sand clone of him drained Superman's powers by a third.

Still, two thirds of Silver Age Superman's power is nothing to scoff at here.


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## BreakFlame (Dec 21, 2016)

I love that this is a legit discussion. Can you imagine if someone tried this pre-Super?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 21, 2016)

BreakFlame said:


> I love that this is a legit discussion. Can you imagine if someone tried this pre-Super?


Well aside from a few here like Mad King or SSBMonado, this thread has been surprisingly civil really.

We still haven't reached a consensus yet other than that Superman is a lot faster than Hit.

At best, its stalemate. Hit can't reach Superman and Superman can't damage Hit although I think Supes is stronger because of the Imperiex Big Bang feat and that Hit has not been able to hit _that_ hard. Hit's universal but not universal enough in my opinion.


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## Blocky (Dec 21, 2016)

Are you sure you able to powerscale PC Supers to Imperiex?

I know pre-crsis still may exist in DC but still that was during the time where DC only had one universe right?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 21, 2016)

Blocky said:


> Are you sure you able to powerscale PC Supers to Imperiex?
> 
> I know pre-crsis still may exist in DC but still that was during the time where DC only had one universe right?


Pre-Crisis?

There was a multiverse then. It's why Crisis on Infinite Earths happened.

Also, to the best of my recollection, Imperiex came before Pre-Crisis so I think it's fine to.


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## God Movement (Dec 21, 2016)

Endless Mike said:


> *Sees the EM signal*
> 
> *I will point out that Bronze Age Superman once destroyed a device with a single punch that was unharmed by sitting in the middle of the Big Bang.* And Bronze Age Superman was officially depowered from his Silver Age self. Just one example.
> 
> Not going to bother with any other stuff in the thread as I don't really care, but if any of you have any questions for me, ask away.



Scans of this? I was convinced Bronze Age Supes was a scrub.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 21, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Scans of this? I was convinced Bronze Age Supes was a scrub.


I know you didn't ask for me specifically but ask and ye shall receive


*Spoiler*: __ 









Bronze Age Supes got his powers drained by a sand clone and reduced down to 2/3rds of his total power during the 70s and 80s. So he's only a third as weak as his Silver Age self in the 50s and 60s.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## The Runner (Dec 21, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Scans of this? I was convinced Bronze Age Supes was a scrub.


That septillion feat was from Bronze Age, iirc

Either that or Curt Swan upped his game


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 21, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> That septillion feat was from Bronze Age, iirc
> 
> Either that or Curt Swan upped his game


I'd say Julius Schwartz probably did.

It'll be funny if it turns out BA Supes has better feats than SA Supes because the entire reason for the Sandman Arc was to depower Supes


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## The Runner (Dec 21, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I'd say Julius Schwartz probably did.
> 
> It'll be funny if it turns out BA Supes has better feats than SA Supes because the entire reason for the Sandman Arc was to depower Supes


Holy shit that would be glorious 

Like how John Byrne spent all that time time to depower Superman, only to have guys like Roger Stern have him survive a sun-eater exploding


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## Blocky (Dec 21, 2016)

I thought it was Silver Age Supers that survive the big bang.

It makes Pre-crisis superman ever more powerful if it was the de-powered version


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 21, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Holy shit that would be glorious
> 
> Like how John Byrne spent all that time time to depower Superman, only to have guys like Roger Stern have him survive a sun-eater exploding





Blocky said:


> I thought it was Silver Age Supers that survive the big bang.
> 
> It makes Pre-crisis superman ever more powerful if it was the de-powered version


Now that I think about it, most of the crazy shit Pre-Crisis Supes can do comes from the Bronze Age.

Don't get me wrong, Silver Age Supes is powerful too in his own right and he's got some crazy hax too but his best speed, strength, durability, hax and other feats almost all come from the Bronze Age when the entire point behind the huge status quo shake up was to weaken Superman drastically.

Gotta love the irony of comics


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## Blocky (Dec 21, 2016)

So i guess Pre-Crisis Superman was REALLY holding back at what he does.

Damn, I feel like this is what Tonathan would be saying right now.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 21, 2016)

Nah I think it's just comics being comics.

The Silver Age then wasn't really concerned about Supes' power other than for him to get into Looney Tunes esque situations and find some creative solution out of them which is why he has so much hax and whatnot under his belt.

Bronze Age was different. Comics were getting serious and with Supes being as powerful as he was in the Silver Age, Schwartz wanted him to be brought down a peg but some writers like Elliot S! Maggin disagreed with that hence why you see shit like that.


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 21, 2016)

Wait what did I miss what is Imperiex doing here? How is he rellevant to Pre crisis supes?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 21, 2016)

Because he came from the previous DC Creation, before even Pre-Crisis.


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## Blocky (Dec 21, 2016)

And how does he scale to him? Just by being more powerful?


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 21, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Because he came from the previous DC Creation, before even Pre-Crisis.



But how does that help Pre-crisis supes? or it was just an off topic discussion?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 21, 2016)

Blocky said:


> And how does he scale to him? Just by being more powerfu


Because of the end of OWAW. Imperiex's Big Bang merged with the DCU's and created the universe. AFAIK Imperiex came before the Pre-Crisis universe and Mike actually calced that.


Worldbreaker said:


> But how does that help Pre-crisis supes? or it was just an off topic discussion?


It's more or less about Mike's Imperiex calc that got in the tenakiloFOE range. Jogga and I agree that it aligns with the Pre-Crisis universe being the same size as the Post-Crisis DCU which is 200 trillion light years in diameter.


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## Worldbreaker (Dec 21, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> It's more or less about Mike's Imperiex calc that got in the tenakiloFOE range. Jogga and I agree that it aligns with the Pre-Crisis universe being the same size as the Post-Crisis DCU which is 200 trillion light years in diameter.


ok ok gotcha not 100% down with it but I unerstand


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## Blocky (Dec 21, 2016)

Yeah but isn't imperiex more powerful then pre-crisis supers tho?

I remember he has the power to bust 10 million universes something like that IIRC


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 21, 2016)

Nope. Imperiex is the Big Bang or rather contains the Big Bang in himself. He has to Hollow out the universe than recreate it.

The one way to beat him is by forcing his energy form out of his shell which is what the JLA, Darkseid and B-13 did.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> That septillion feat was from Bronze Age, iirc
> 
> Either that or Curt Swan upped his game



The feat where he flew outside of the multiverse and had to be stopped by the Spectre was also in the Bronze Age. Honestly he has many great feats in that era.


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## BreakFlame (Dec 22, 2016)

So the unintended implication here is that Superman never even used a third of his power as Silver Age? 

Seems legit


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 22, 2016)

BreakFlame said:


> So the unintended implication here is that Superman never even used a third of his power as Silver Age?
> 
> Seems legit


Used even less possibly!

I mean we are to believe that the Sand Clone took one third of Superman's powers away and yet in the Bronze Age, Superman has far greater feats or so it appears.


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## Blocky (Dec 22, 2016)

Silver age superman update when?


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## Gordo solos (Dec 22, 2016)

The whole "juggling planets" thing I heard people say about Pre-Crisis Supes was really from a narration statement in the Bronze Age

It's like all his most famous feats/statements are from the Bronze Age


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## The Runner (Dec 22, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> The whole "juggling planets" thing I heard people say about Pre-Crisis Supes was really from a narration statement in the Bronze Age
> 
> It's like all his most famous feats/statements are from the Bronze Age


I though it was more in line with this one


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## Nep Heart (Dec 22, 2016)

Superman, owner of the universe's biggest anal beads.


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## The Runner (Dec 22, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> Superman, owner of the universe's biggest anal beads.


"You look me in the eye and tell me that *that* first Planet doesn't look like a huge infected anus"


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## The Runner (Dec 22, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> Superman, owner of the universe's biggest anal beads.


I get it now


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## Gordo solos (Dec 22, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> I though it was more in line with this one


No, there was a scan where it was said Bronze Age Supes could juggle planets but he's not as strong as he used to be. Or that he used to be strong enough to juggle them. Or some other shit, I forgot


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## Toaa (Dec 22, 2016)

Thats not silver age supes?


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 22, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Thats not silver age supes?


Silver and Bronze Age depends on the years involved.

Silver Age is 1956-1970. Bronze Age is 1970-1986.

They're one and the same, just different dates.


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## The Runner (Dec 22, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Thats not silver age supes?


Yep, Silver Age Superboy to be precise.

Silver Age and Bronze Age are the same guy, but in diffrent era's of comics.

Bronze Age is where Silver Age's characters dropped their balls, so to speak. It's where:


>Green Arrow and Green Lantern "confronted" Roy Harper's Heroin addiction
>Dennis O'Neil and Neil Adams started their legendary run on Batman which was a departure from the campy Silver Age Batman
>Gwen Stacy died, Peter Parker's second biggest regret of his entire life
>Jack "The King" Kirby moved to DC, creating The New Gods with his "Fourth World" cycle (also which meant creating one of DC's greatest super-villains, Darkseid.)
>Chris Claremont started his X-Men run, created their best stories and essentially taking over Marvel.
>Ironman's "Demon in a Bottle" storyline
>Elliot S! Maggin and others started their essential runs on Superman. Being the first to ask the question "Must there be a Superman?"; thus, making Superman stories profound.

And all of it was just one GIANT middle finger to the Comics Code of Authority.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 22, 2016)

Were it not for Kal-L being a complete badass in the Golden Age, Bronze Age Superman would be my favorite.

Some of my favorite stuff with Superman comes from the Bronze Age.

I'm reading "Phantom Zone" at the moment while putting on some Iron Maiden music. You'd be surprised how well "Number of the Beast" fits with that miniseries.


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## The Runner (Dec 22, 2016)

If Bronze Age Superman's reflection on his influence over the human race, and every thing else, was a big "fuck you" to corrupt censorship...

Then Superman's general inception was a big "fuck you" to crime itself


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 22, 2016)

Golden Age Superman was a pretty big "fuck you" to the elites on Capitol Hill at the time.

Supes was a socialist superhero helping out the working class man and protecting them from the crooked assholes that sought to make the poor suffer more during the Great Depression.

Maybe that's why I find Kal-L to be so badass.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 22, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Essentially


A favorite quote about Superman of mine.

Grant Morrison put it brilliantly.

I heard Morrison's biggest influence is Maggin.


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## The Runner (Dec 22, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> A favorite quote about Superman of mine.
> 
> Grant Morrison put it brilliantly.
> 
> I heard Morrison's biggest influence is Maggin.


And for Millar and Waid, especially for Waid

That and the Cristopher Reeve movie, obviously


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 22, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> And for Millar and Waid, especially for Waid
> 
> That and the Cristopher Reeve movie, obviously


That's right, I remember Waid admitting in a blog post or somewhere else where he said he loved the hell out of Superman The Movie. Not sure if he likes Superman 2 or not. Personally, Superman 3 and 4 are so bad its good guilty pleasures of mine.

I think everyone knows by now that Waid really *REALLY* hated Man of Steel and even said Superman Returns was better.


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## The Runner (Dec 22, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> That's right, I remember Waid admitting in a blog post or somewhere else where he said he loved the hell out of Superman The Movie. Not sure if he likes Superman 2 or not. Personally, Superman 3 and 4 are so bad its good guilty pleasures of mine.
> 
> I think everyone knows by now that Waid really *REALLY* hated Man of Steel and even said Superman Returns was better.


Yep

It is kewl to hate on Man of Steel, to be honest 

And I can't blame them

I tried my best to like it, I adored Faora as a guilty pleasure at least

But lol at plot


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 22, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Yep
> 
> It is kewl to hate on Man of Steel, to be honest
> 
> ...


I can't judge anyone for liking it because I ironically like Superman IV.

Dear god is there so much about that movie that just puts me in stitches.

I should hate that movie but when there's shit like Nuclear Man, the Wall Repair Vision, the fight on the moon, etc. it's just so hard for me to really hate it.


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## The Runner (Dec 22, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I can't judge anyone for liking it because I ironically like Superman IV.
> 
> Dear god is there so much about that movie that just puts me in stitches.
> 
> I should hate that movie but when there's shit like Nuclear Man, the Wall Repair Vision, the fight on the moon, etc. it's just so hard for me to really hate it.


Nuclear Man hammering Supes like a cartoon?

Nuclear Man lookin' like Super-Fabio?

My God...


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 22, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Nuclear Man hammering Supes like a cartoon?
> 
> Nuclear Man lookin' like Super-Fabio?
> 
> My God...


Such a gloriously stupid movie.

One of my favorite bad movies ever.

Up there with Guyver and Zardoz.


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## The Runner (Dec 22, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Such a gloriously stupid movie.
> 
> One of my favorite bad movies ever.
> 
> Up there with Guyver and Zardoz.


It's one of my top 10 anime


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## TobiSan (Dec 22, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> But lol at plot



Are you trying to imply that there exist a comic book movie with a great plot?


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## The Runner (Dec 23, 2016)

TobiSan said:


> Are you trying to imply that there exist a comic book movie with a great plot?


Yep

Shocking right?


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## Majinsaga (Dec 25, 2016)

Hit got even more upgrades. He can now create parallel dimensions using all the time he's stored from his time skips/stops.

Hit is a beast.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blocky (Dec 25, 2016)

Sounds hax, I still don't see how he can handle super's speed and other hax


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

Pretty sure Superman's supervision lets him see shit like that


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## xenos5 (Dec 25, 2016)

Majinsaga said:


> Hit got even more upgrades. He can now create parallel dimensions using all the time he's stored from his time skips/stops.
> 
> Hit is a beast.



He can attack with his invisible shockwave attack even while his true body is in the parallel dimension and his energy clone is taking hits for him


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 25, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Same
> 
> Well except for the supes wins, part. I may have accepted Supes wins if the fight starts normally due to the speed difference at this point (DC/durability argument that took place here is confusing to me but I know they're both universe level+ so they'd at least be even powerwise).
> 
> But I think Hit has a chance at least if he starts out in his parallel dimension and uses his energy clone while spamming invisible/intangible shockwave attacks from the other dimension.


Fair, it does help his chances a bit but Supes does have counters to this.

Jogga's scan of the Super-Vision affecting dimensional shenanigans oughta do the trick.


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## xenos5 (Dec 25, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Fair, it does help his chances a bit but Supes does have counters to this.
> 
> *Jogga's scan of the Super-Vision affecting dimensional shenanigans oughta do the trick.*



Would he know to do that, initially? Supes may mistake it for simple intangibility and not think to use Super-Vision.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 25, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Would he know to do that, initially? Supes may mistake it for simple intangibility and not think to use Super-Vision.


Most likely not I'll admit but he'll quickly figure out what's going on.

If they're roughly equal in DC/dura, Hit might win but as I and Jogga have said, the DCU Big Bang puts Supes way _way _above baseline universe level.


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## Katsuargi (Dec 25, 2016)

Hit is already way above standard Universe level, to an unknown degree.

SSjG Goku was chilling at somewhere around 10x Universes due to the size of the DBZ universe.
Blue Berry is an unknown degree above that.
Tourny Hit didn't get crushed by KKx10 Goku.

Bunch of training after that.

I'm not sure if he's at Superman's level, but current Super characters are laughably above baseline universe.

Reactions: Like 2


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## xenos5 (Dec 25, 2016)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Most likely not I'll admit but he'll quickly figure out what's going on.
> 
> If they're roughly equal in DC/dura, Hit might win but as I and Jogga have said, the DCU Big Bang puts Supes way _way _above baseline universe level.



Hit's way above baseline universe level as well (as Katsuargi illustrated pretty well with his post).

I think they should be on the same level of power to where even if Hit is weaker he should be able to damage Supes. 

Would Supes have a method of reviving himself like Goku did with a ki blast if Supes does get his heart hit by one of the invisible/intangible shockwave attacks and stopped?


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## ShadMorgen (Dec 25, 2016)

stop debating and eat some christmas dinner you fucking nerds

Reactions: Funny 2


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Would he know to do that, initially? Supes may mistake it for simple intangibility and not think to use Super-Vision.


Superman is kind of a genius in Pre-crisis.

I mean, he thought of using his supervision in that light show, so I don't see why he wouldn't use it here in battle.

Not only that, but he even noticed shifts in the solar systems axis n' shit like that. Clark is a careful guy.

Plus, if Goku can dodge that, than Superman definitely can.


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## xenos5 (Dec 25, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Superman is kind of a genius in Pre-crisis.
> 
> I mean, he thought of using his supervision in that light show, so I don't see why he wouldn't use it here in battle.



Has he never fought someone with intangibility before, though? I don't know why he wouldn't assume it's intangibility. To the casual observer it would pretty much seem like intangibility. Hit would at least get some hits in before Supes figured it out. And I don't know how Supes would resuscitate himself with his heart stopped. 



Sir Jogga said:


> Not only that, but he even noticed shifts in the solar systems axis n' shit like that. Clark is a careful guy.



Even if he thought to use supervision how would he reach that other dimension? 



Sir Jogga said:


> Plus, if Goku can dodge that, than Superman definitely can.



It's unknown how Goku was able to dodge that. The attacks are invisible and intangible. It may have required some special sensing on Goku's part. Don't know if Supes has that same type of sensing. 

Hit can also have the attack go into a rift on one end and opens up a rift somewhere completely different sort of like Janemba's attacks so it'd be incredibly hard to predict and would cross the distance almost instantly.


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 25, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Dammit @Blakk Jakk we ain't 4, this ain't Sesame Street nikka
> 
> Drown on that shit, I'll drive


Hey I ain't drivin' nowhere! **hic**

I'd give y'all some wine and rum but I think I'd drink it all **hie**

I'm having too much fun. Gonna go see Rogue One. Hope the booze is out my system by then. Don't want this to be like Batman v Superman where I was so drunk I laughed my ass off the entire time and got people to leave.


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Has he never fought someone with intangibility before, though? I don't know why he wouldn't assume it's intangibility. To the casual observer it would pretty much seem like intangibility. Hit would at least get some hits in before Supes figured it out. And I don't know how Supes would resuscitate himself with his heart stopped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't Hit using Ki, which is why Goku is able to sense it?

Also, the strike had a purple color to it, so I mingined it's still visible just really fast. Not to mention that Goku managed to destroy said Thing with his Kamehameha, so I imagine that, with enough force, it can be destroyed.

Also, Superman is still far too fast for Hit to do anything about it, so there is still that.


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## xenos5 (Dec 25, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Isn't Hit using Ki, which is why Goku is able to sense it?



Goku was completely unable to sense it the first time Hit used it. He is able to sense regular ki attacks just fine though.



Sir Jogga said:


> Also, the strike had a purple color to it, so I mingined it's still visible just really fast. Not to mention that Goku managed to destroy said Thing with his Kamehameha, so I imagine that, with enough force, it can be destroyed.



It's specifically called invisible. And Ki in dragonball seems to be good against hax at a certain level (like Vegito keeping his consciousness as a piece of chocolate) so that's why Goku's ki attacks could interact with Hit's intangible attacks.



Sir Jogga said:


> Also, Superman is still far too fast for Hit to do anything about it, so there is still that.



Superman's not going to see the attacks coming at all. Hit can face his back towards Superman do the inivisible/intangible attack and have it come out through a rift completely different from the trajectory and area Hit starts the attack from.


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Goku was completely unable to sense it the first time Hit used it. He is able to sense regular ki attacks just fine though


Well that usually due to attacks being too fast for him. Pretty sure Zenkai helped him with that i believe  


xenos5 said:


> It's specifically called invisible. And Ki in dragonball seems to be good against hax at a certain level (like Vegito keeping his consciousness as a piece of chocolate) so that's why Goku's ki attacks could interact with Hit's intangible attacks.


Wouldn't call it intangible. It's invisble. It's really apparent that it's a Ki attack.


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## xenos5 (Dec 25, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Well that usually due to attacks being too fast for him. Pretty sure Zenkai helped him with that i believe



Nah. It was made apparent that normal sensing wouldn't allow you to dodge those attacks. It's very likely Goku's developing a new type of sensing/precognition. After all he was able to predict where an MFTL character's postition would be (Hit) after said character stopped time during the universe 6 tournament.



Sir Jogga said:


> Wouldn't call it intangible. It's invisble. It's really apparent that it's a Ki attack.



It passed straight through solid matter (a tree) to reach Goku and left that matter completely undisturbed. It's fucking intangible.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Toaa (Dec 25, 2016)

If speed was equal could hit kill superman with a shockwave thrpugh his heart or head?Dude is an assasin so he goes for that well except for goku .


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

I watched it again. Still liked it.


xenos5 said:


> Nah. It was made apparent that normal sensing wouldn't allow you to dodge those attacks. It's very likely Goku's developing a new type of sensing/precognition. After all he was able to predict where an MFTL character's postition would be (Hit) after said character stopped time during the universe 6 tournament.


Nah. Goku stated that Hit created duplicates out of his own energy to distract Goku. That way he could sneak up on him. He is still using Ki, Goku just needed to try and tune himself.

Every thing is still Ki, just much more elaborate.


xenos5 said:


> It passed straight through solid matter (a tree) to reach Goku and left that matter completely undisturbed. It's fucking intangible.


yep, sorry. Checked it again.

However, it can still be sensed and dodged. Not to mention felt. Goku got straight up hit in the face with one.

So still, Superman can get it on


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

Screen shot


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## xenos5 (Dec 25, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> I watched it again. Still liked it.



Cool.



Sir Jogga said:


> Nah. Goku stated that Hit created duplicates out of his own energy to distract Goku. That way he could sneak up on him. He is still using Ki, Goku just needed to try and tune himself.



The shockwaves are distinctly different from ki. Goku would still be able to sense it the first time Hit used it on him if it was just faster than him, but he didn't show any signs of being able to sense it right before or when Hit used it. Goku wasn't able to sense it and only barely dodged it after it already passed through the tree. Another sign we've gotten of Goku developing some sort of new sense/precognition is him automatically dodging Bulma in the previous episode similar to Whis's ability to have his body move without any thought required. This is also shown to be different from his normal sensing as it requires him to close his eyes and have pretty much absolute concentration. Superman doesn't have ki sensing to begin with (or at least I haven't heard of him having life force sensing powers) let alone whatever this new sensing is.



Sir Jogga said:


> Every thing is still Ki, just much more elaborate.



Not all of Hit's abilities can be explained by ki. Storing time, creating a parallel dimension with time, being able to attack with his intangible/invisible shockwaves even while he's in the parallel dimension. This is pure hax.



Sir Jogga said:


> yep, sorry. Checked it again.



S'alright.



Sir Jogga said:


> However, it can still be sensed and dodged. Not to mention felt. Goku got straight up hit in the face with one.
> 
> So still, Superman can get it on



It only becomes tangible upon impacting it's target. Unless Superman's heat vision has countered intangible attacks before (And I still don't think Supes would be able to sense the attack to begin with) it's not countering Hit's intangible,invisible shockwaves.



Sir Jogga said:


> Screen shot



Not sure what this is supposed to be.


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Cool.


I especially liked the fight, but I really didn't like the lack of tension due to Vados and the rest appearing. That's the only big flaw for me personally. Still, good character episode, for Goku and Hit.


xenos5 said:


> The shockwaves are distinctly different from ki. Goku would still be able to sense it the first time Hit used it on him if it was just faster than him, but he didn't show any signs of being able to sense it right before or when Hit used it. Goku wasn't able to sense it and only barely dodged it after it already passed through the tree. Another sign we've gotten of Goku developing some sort of new sense/precognition is him automatically dodging Bulma in the previous episode similar to Whis's ability to have his body move without any thought required. This is also shown to be different from his normal sensing as it requires him to close his eyes and have pretty much absolute concentration. Superman doesn't have ki sensing to begin with (or at least I haven't heard of him having life force sensing powers) let alone whatever this new sensing is.


Closing his eyes to sense somebody isn't some new form of sensing/precog for Goku. All that shows is that Goku needed extra effort to sense him.

Goku even says that Hit was using his Ki to distract him by displacing his energy.

Not only that, but the whole parallel dimension stuff is just an extension of his Time-Skip, as Vados explained. He has an invisible field of stored time where he can travel from in and out from. It can still be destroyed, like how Goku was able to do so by expelling Ki.

The attack itself? It's still energy, just intangible and invisible as he wills it.


xenos5 said:


> Not all of Hit's abilities can be explained by ki. Storing time, creating a parallel dimension with time, being able to attack with his intangible/invisible shockwaves even while he's in the parallel dimension. This is pure hax.


Able to relese energy while being in another dimension is not pure hax, per se.

Even so, that dimension can still be destroyed with enough energy.


xenos5 said:


> It only becomes tangible upon impacting it's target. Unless Superman's heat vision has countered intangible attacks before (And I still don't think Supes would be able to sense the attack to begin with) it's not countering Hit's intangible,invisible shockwaves.


You mean like how it hit the ocean and the cliff after Goku dodged it? It looks more like Hit has to specifically allow it to shift from/to intangibility.

Not only that, but Superman's visions should allow it to see so very comfortably.


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## Unlucky13 (Dec 25, 2016)

Yesh, all I'm getting from this fight is who ever takes initiative is most likely to win.


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

Unlucky13 said:


> Yesh, all I'm getting from this fight is who ever takes initiative is most likely to win.


Speed Equal, and with the restrictions in place, Hit wins it seems

All restrictions lost? Superman wins

Reactions: Like 1


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## xenos5 (Dec 25, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> I especially liked the fight, but I really didn't like the lack of tension due to Vados and the rest appearing. That's the only big flaw for me personally. Still, good character episode, for Goku and Hit.



I do understand why they appeared. I don't think we'd be able to figure out Hit's ability purely visually so the exposition explaining it was necessary. 



Sir Jogga said:


> Closing his eyes to sense somebody isn't some new form of sensing/precog for Goku. All that shows is that Goku needed extra effort to sense him.



What about how Goku automatically dodged Bulma? That matches exactly what Whis talked about in the past about reacting without thinking. And again Supes doesn't have ki sensing to begin with. Even If ki sensing allows you to predict it the fact that Goku has to concentrate to such a degree for it means the normal five senses shouldn't allow you to sense it. Even enhanced versions of those senses. 



Sir Jogga said:


> Goku even says that Hit was using his Ki to distract him by displacing his energy.



I'll admit that specific technique uses ki. Doesn't mean all of Hit's abilities are ki related tho. 



Sir Jogga said:


> Not only that, but the whole parallel dimension stuff is just an extension of his Time-Skip, as Vados explained. He has an invisible field of stored time where he can travel from in and out from. It can still be destroyed, like how Goku was able to do so by expelling Ki.



Time-Skip isn't a ki ability to begin with. So it being time-skip doesn't make it powered by ki. space-time can be destroyed so I don't see how Hit's parallel dimension being destroyed by ki makes it ki. Heck Vegeta destroyed space-time when he powered up and destroyed the time chamber from the inside. This is just further evidence of Ki being a counter to hax when it reaches a certain level of power. 



Sir Jogga said:


> The attack itself? It's still energy, just intangible and invisible as he wills it.



It's never described as ki. It's described as invisible. It's described as intangible. It's described as a shockwave. But never ki. Goku's just capable of countering intangible attacks with his ki being at the level it's at now. 



Sir Jogga said:


> Able to relese energy while being in another dimension is not pure hax, per se.
> 
> Even so, that dimension can still be destroyed with enough energy.



It's not just "enough energy" that allows the shockwaves to be destroyed. Ki is pretty much gaining special properties now. It can interact with intangible attacks. 



Sir Jogga said:


> You mean like how it hit the ocean and the cliff after Goku dodged it? It looks more like Hit has to specifically allow it to shift from/to intangibility.
> 
> Not only that, but Superman's visions should allow it to see so very comfortably.



It's more likely it starts out intangible and hit has to will it to be tangible upon impact than the other way around. Hit may have made it tangible too early when Goku dodged it. 

Have Superman's visions ever allowed him to see a similar attack to what Hit used? Can you post a scan of that?


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> I do understand why they appeared. I don't think we'd be able to figure out Hit's ability purely visually so the exposition explaining it was necessary.


Yeah. But that point is mute, considering Hit and Goku shared info on their abilities right after. So exposition just could have come out from Hit himself.


xenos5 said:


> What about how *Goku automatically dodged Bulma*? That matches exactly what Whis talked about in the past about reacting without thinking. And again Supes doesn't have ki sensing to begin with. Even If ki sensing allows you to predict it the fact that Goku has to concentrate to such a degree for it means the normal five senses shouldn't allow you to sense it. Even enhanced versions of those senses.


???

What about it? I'm pretty sure characters in DB dodged people trying to surprise attack them by sensing them before. It's a staple of anime. Especially considering that that doesn't deny that he's not sensing Ki.

Not only that, but what what Whis was talking about was clearly about instinct. He talked about how Vegeta was too wound up, and Goku was too loose. That's not code for some special technique.

Again, Superman's sight allowed him to sense and scan alien energies before. this aint different.


xenos5 said:


> I'll admit that specific technique uses ki. Doesn't mean all of Hit's abilities are ki related tho.


Never claimed that all of them were


xenos5 said:


> Time-Skip isn't a ki ability to begin with. So it being time-skip doesn't make it powered by ki. space-time can be destroyed so I don't see how Hit's parallel dimension being destroyed by ki makes it ki. Heck Vegeta destroyed space-time when he powered up and destroyed the time chamber from the inside. This is just further evidence of Ki being a counter to hax when it reaches a certain level of power.


Never said it _was_ ki


xenos5 said:


> It's not just "enough energy" that allows the shockwaves to be destroyed. Ki is pretty much gaining special properties now. It can interact with intangible attacks.


So can physical objects dude. That's pretty much clear with the damage it causes overtime Goku dodges one.


xenos5 said:


> It's more likely it starts out intangible and hit has to will it to be tangible upon impact than the other way around. Hit may have made it tangible too early when Goku dodged it.


To me it seems that he can make it both ways. It's his Ki to control, after all. 

Superman has never seen Ki. or atleast what Dragon Ball has in the name of Ki. But he has scanned alien energies and analyzed what they were composed of. Like how he found out that the entire dimension was comprised of Maaldor's life-force transforming into an entire distant dimension comprised of his own madness


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## xenos5 (Dec 25, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Yeah. But that point is mute, considering Hit and Goku shared info on their abilities right after. So exposition just could have come out from Hit himself.
> 
> ???
> 
> ...



I don't think scanning alien energies really equates to being able to detect energy that is both invisible and intangible and can just *barely* be sensed by Goku with only the highest amount of concentration. 

And even if he could see it with super vision that would only cover his front side. His back and any other angle outside of Supes's vision would be completely open to attack. Supes wouldn't see it coming.


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## Bender (Dec 25, 2016)

I feel like we're going to have to go ALL over whether or not Hit like Goku and high tier fighters are FTL before going any further. 


Or we all in agreement that Hit is FTL like Goku using IT en-mass during fight?


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> I don't think scanning alien energies really equates to being able to detect energy that is both invisible and intangible and can just *barely* be sensed by Goku with only the highest amount of concentration.
> 
> And even if he could see it with super vision that would only cover his front side. His back and any other angle outside of Supes's vision would be completely open to attack. Supes wouldn't see it coming.


Superman essentially saw the entire thing's life-force expanding and contrasting, despite it being invisible to Kara. And saw how it imploded and formed into an entire dimension of madness.

And lets not assume that this is an even playground.

Superman is STILL massively, _massively_ faster than Hit. So he's likely to analyze and adhere to the situation, where the guy is tangible or not, before Hit can do anything about it.


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

Bender said:


> I feel like we're going to have to go ALL over whether or not Hit like Goku and high tier fighters are FTL before going any further.
> 
> 
> Or we all in agreement that Hit is FTL like Goku using IT en-mass during fight?


Yep, Massively FTL


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## xenos5 (Dec 25, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Superman essentially saw the entire thing's life-force expanding and contrasting, despite it being invisible to Kara. And saw how it imploded and formed into an entire dimension of madness.



The thing is Goku can sense normal invisible ki shockwaves without much effort but he has to close his eyes and completely concentrate to barely sense Hit's shockwaves. Hit's shockwaves are on a higher level of undetectability than those alien energies.



Sir Jogga said:


> And lets not assume that this is an even playground.
> 
> Superman is STILL massively, _massively_ faster than Hit. So he's likely to analyze and adhere to the situation, where the guy is tangible or not, before Hit can do anything about it.



Hit can send one of his invisible/intangible shockwaves right on top of Superman by sending it through a rift and having another rift open right next to Supes. Supes won't even think to dodge because he won't know an attack is coming at him or from where.


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> The thing is Goku can sense normal invisible ki shockwaves without much effort but he has to close his eyes and completely concentrate to barely sense Hit's shockwaves. Hit's shockwaves are on a higher level of undetectability than those alien energies.


Says who? Goku could dodge and tank this energies after he got the hang of it without needing to be perfectly still. Even then, there is now evidence that Superman scanning an entire dimension and what its made of is somehow less than Goku sensing the blast


Again, Hit is a statue to Superman.

Boy you guys are really underselling just how WIDE the speed difference is here


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## xenos5 (Dec 25, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Says who? Goku could dodge and tank this energies after he got the hang of it without needing to be perfectly still. Even then, there is now evidence that Superman scanning an entire dimension and what its made of is somehow less than Goku sensing the blast



I wouldn't say tank. It still does quite a bit of damage to Goku. He emphasizes the pain each time it hits him and even the one time it just grazed him. 

Superman being able to detect a foreign energy in a wide range=/= being able to detect a foreign energy that is near undtectable to people who already regularly sense foreign energy of the same nature. 



Sir Jogga said:


> Again, Hit is a statue to Superman.
> 
> Boy you guys are really underselling just how WIDE the speed difference is here



It would matter more if Hit was actually physically attacking Supes rather than just hitting him from a pocket dimension with energy that I doubt Superman could detect and can cross the distance without even having to travel that far through use of rifts.


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## Claudio Swiss (Dec 25, 2016)

I love how before a pre crisis Superman Vs db debate usually results super stomping the shit outta the verse to super having characters being threats to  pre crisis characters.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> wouldn't say tank. It still does quite a bit of damage to Goku. He emphasizes the pain each time it hits him and even the one time it just grazed him.
> 
> Superman being able to detect a foreign energy in a wide range=/= being able to detect a foreign energy that is near undtectable to people who already regularly sense foreign energy of the same nature.


Then Damage Soak, point still stands that he didn't have to stand still just to detect the Ki

Ki isn't foreign to Goku.  It's the fact that Goku needed to focus because Hit was using Ki Clones to confuse him


xenos5 said:


> It would matter more if Hit was actually physically attacking Supes rather than just hitting him from a pocket dimension with energy that I doubt Superman could detect and can cross the distance without even having to travel that far through use of rifts.


Again, Hit's still a stone.

That's not changing just because Hit can attack from another dimension. he'd have to react fast enough to do that before Supes blitzes


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## xenos5 (Dec 25, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Then Damage Soak, point still stands that he didn't have to stand still just to detect the Ki



He closed his eyes each and every time he had to dodge one of the shockwave attacks. 



Sir Jogga said:


> Ki isn't foreign to Goku.  It's the fact that Goku needed to focus because Hit was using Ki Clones to confuse him



The ki clones were only to keep Goku from being able to tell the position Hit himself. Not the shockwave attack. 



Sir Jogga said:


> Again, Hit's still a stone.



Are you saying surprise attacks/sneak attacks are impossible against an opponent with high enough speed? I don't believe that to be true. Supes could react to the attack if he could detect it but I don't believe he could. He wouldn't know the attack was happening or where it was coming from so he wouldn't think to react to it. 



Sir Jogga said:


> That's not changing just because Hit can attack from another dimension. he'd have to react fast enough to do that before Supes blitzes



As I mentioned to Black Jakk when I first brought this up i'm discussing a scenario where Hit starts in his pocket dimension. If Supes is just attacking the energy clone Hit leaves behind when in the pocket dimension Hit won't receive any damage from that.


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## Toaa (Dec 25, 2016)

Too specific. Normally supes wins until toei decides to go apeshit.


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## Montanz (Dec 25, 2016)

Was it ever settled wether or not supes is universal+ tho?

regardless of the disparity in terms of joules, if one character is accepted to be able to bust space-time whereas the other isn't the former will pretty much be unquantifiably above the latter.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Was it ever settled wether or not supes is universal+ tho?
> 
> regardless of the disparity in terms of joules, if one character is accepted to be able to bust space-time whereas the other isn't the former will pretty much be unquantifiably above the latter.


Yeperino.

Also @xenos5 im going to have to take my time. 

can barely make short awnsrs really busy


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## xenos5 (Dec 25, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Yeperino.
> 
> Also @xenos5 im going to have to take my time.
> 
> can barely make short awnsrs really busy



Hmmm...? When was it shown that PC Supes can bust space-time? Wasn't it just Supes just destroying an object that tanked a portion of a big bang? That has nothing to do with space-time destruction.


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## The Runner (Dec 25, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Hmmm...? When was it shown that PC Supes can bust space-time? Wasn't it just Supes just destroying an object that tanked a portion of a big bang? That has nothing to do with space-time destruction.


Center of the DC's Big Bang

Space Time fuckery? That's child's play, guy closed boom tubes with his own hands.


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## xenos5 (Dec 25, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Center of the DC's Big Bang
> 
> Space Time fuckery? That's child's play, guy closed boom tubes with his own hands.



So he bent space-time? Not the same as space-time destruction. And to what you said earlier about needing time to respond to one of my posts, take all the time you need.


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## Montanz (Dec 25, 2016)

It was settled the DC big bang was bigger than our own, but there is no actual consensus on wether or not tanking such an event requires you to be able to resist the equivalent space-time destruction/creation, the actual thing is defined as an expansion of space-time, so it's not nearly as straightforward as creating an universe/bigbang or destroying one.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trance (Dec 25, 2016)

Bender said:


> I feel like we're going to have to go ALL over whether or not Hit like Goku and high tier fighters are FTL before going any further.
> 
> 
> Or we all in agreement that Hit is FTL like Goku using IT en-mass during fight?



The speed of the shockwaves produced from SSJG Goku and Beerus clashing punches was calced in the quadrillions of times FTL range and Hit is infinitely superior to that incarnation of Goku


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Jan 30, 2017)

Regular superman would solo all of DBS

Reactions: Dislike 5


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