# King Bumi vs Iroh



## Huey Freeman (Aug 22, 2011)

Knowledge: none for each
Restrictions: none
Location: Ba Sing Se palace
Bloodlusted each

I personally see it a close match


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Aug 22, 2011)

they play pai sho


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## Wan (Aug 22, 2011)

Iroh wins with Sozin's Comet, Bumi wins otherwise.


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## Soledad Eterna (Aug 22, 2011)

I go with Iroh, he can use lightining, is a proficient firebender and is younger. Also Bumi got defeated by Aang, who at the time only knew airbending, and Zuko could keep with this version of Aang, and Iroh>him.


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## Wan (Aug 23, 2011)

Aang never defeated Bumi, Bumi was just playing around.   And if you don't believe me, could Aang have single-handedly freed Omashu at that point in the series?


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 23, 2011)

Actually I doubt Bumi was taking Aang seriously. Also remember his kingdoms remained unconquered for over a 100 years and he let himself get captured .
I do believe Bumi tunneling abilities will be the key factor here


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## Soledad Eterna (Aug 23, 2011)

Iroh can keep his own against earthbenders. Besides, remember he had Ba Sing Se surrounded for almost two years.


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## Archangel Michael (Aug 23, 2011)

I give it to bumi and didn't bumi take back his own country .If comet is here I give it to iroh.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Aug 23, 2011)

Bumi, what is Iroh going to do to him?
Be trapped in rock?


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## hammer (Aug 23, 2011)

bumi wiggles his nose


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## Gunners (Aug 23, 2011)

Soledad Eterna said:


> I go with Iroh, he can use lightining, is a proficient firebender and is younger. Also Bumi got defeated by Aang, who at the time only knew airbending, and Zuko could keep with this version of Aang, and Iroh>him.



Aang is an Air bending master and Zuko could not keep up with Aang at the time, he got his ass handled.


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## Level7N00b (Aug 23, 2011)

Bumi has the advantage of being able to bend with just the smallest gestures. If he is able to trap Iroh's hands, or get him underground, he's done for.



Gunners said:


> Aang is an Air bending master and Zuko could not keep up with Aang at the time, he got his ass handled.



Indeed, Iroh was making Zuko repeat Firebending basics for a while. Aang had long since mastered Airbending.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 23, 2011)

I'd give it to Bumi.

Iroh won't go down without a fight, but earthbending seems like a pretty good counter for firebending, or at least the basic fire blasts. Iroh has lightning too, but he'd probably find it difficult to use given the setup time involved.


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## Narcissus (Aug 23, 2011)

Bumi has massive earthbending power. Iroh would be forced to try and use lightning because it's the only thing he has with enough power to break through any of Bumi's earth.

Bumi clearly has the advantage.


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## Kirito (Aug 23, 2011)

Bumi has the advantage of being more mobile than Iroh. But if Iroh had Sozin's Comet, Iroh wins.


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## Emperor Joker (Aug 23, 2011)

A normal fight between them ay? Without anykind of power up like Sozin's Comet i'd actually say Bumi takes this...though with some difficulty. 



Soledad Eterna said:


> I go with Iroh, he can use lightining, is a proficient firebender and is younger. Also Bumi got defeated by Aang, who at the time only knew airbending, and Zuko could keep with this version of Aang, and Iroh>him.



Aang never really defeated Bumi, if Bumi wanted to he could have easily got out from under that rock...he was toying with Aang


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## Android 18 (Aug 24, 2011)

Iroh only wins with the comit otherwise it's bumi.


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## Soledad Eterna (Aug 24, 2011)

Gunners said:


> he got his ass handled.


After fighting for a while.


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## billy3 (Aug 24, 2011)

Bumi, although I like Iroh's character more.

Iroh did get taught by dragons though, so he'd put up a good fight.


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## Stunna (Aug 24, 2011)

Wait, people actually thought Aang had defeated Bumi in _The Earth King?_



What, did they miss the giant boulder Bumi was holding above their heads?

And for people throwing Zuko out the window because Aang was an Airbending master, Zuko defeated Zhao, whom was a Firebending master.


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## Level7N00b (Aug 24, 2011)

Zuko barely defeated Zhao. And even if Zhao was a master, he wan't a good one, not to mention he terrible temper problems. The first real Firebender to show anything master level, was Jeong Jeong. Zuko was above average as a Firebender in season 1. Season 2 is where his growth really showed itself.


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## Stunna (Aug 24, 2011)

Which is why I said not to throw Zuko out the window. I never said Zhao was a good master, and his temper played no part in his defeat until after the fact. But I think that's more of the creator's fault; I think it was a mistake having Zuko defeat Zhao in an Agni Kai in the second episode. Sort of made him hard to take seriously for the rest of the season.


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## Level7N00b (Aug 24, 2011)

Compared to the generic soldiers and pirates we saw in Book 1, yeah, Zuko was pretty good.


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## Kurou (Aug 25, 2011)

Zuko being better than a master is no surprise considering his coach



He'd have been able to hang with Azula if he werent such an emo hot head


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## Stunna (Aug 25, 2011)

I doubt that. I mean, of course EOS Zuko, but in the beginning? No way, Azula was a natural born prodigy; it took something fierce for Zuko to stand a chance.


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## Wan (Aug 26, 2011)

Level7N00b said:


> Zuko barely defeated Zhao. And even if Zhao was a master, he wan't a good one, not to mention he terrible temper problems. The first real Firebender to show anything master level, was Jeong Jeong. Zuko was above average as a Firebender in season 1. Season 2 is where his growth really showed itself.



It shows that simple titles are worthless in deciding a vs.  Zuko and Aang fought pretty evenly in "Bato of the Water Tribe".


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## Risyth (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm late but really, it's about speed and Iroh just doesn't have it. Bumi can bend faster, and is more agile, as shown.


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## Pineapples (Aug 26, 2011)

I think Bumi has the edge here. Although he is pretty old (100+ years aint he?), his stamina is rather questionable. 

If Bumi can beat Iroh, that implies that he also has a chance of taking down Ozai. Which sound relatively reasonable.


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## Wan (Aug 26, 2011)

Risyth said:


> I'm late but really, it's about speed and Iroh just doesn't have it. Bumi can bend faster, and is more agile, as shown.



How can he bend faster?


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## Level7N00b (Aug 26, 2011)

Pineapples said:


> I think Bumi has the edge here. Although he is pretty old (100+ years aint he?), his stamina is rather questionable.
> 
> If Bumi can beat Iroh, that implies that he also has a chance of taking down Ozai. Which sound relatively reasonable.



Bumi's stamina was never shown to be a problem. And Ozai never fought without the comet, so it's pointless to speculate how powerful he is without it.



Oman said:


> How can he bend faster?



Stomp the ground.


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## A Optimistic (Aug 26, 2011)

Aang obviously wasn't going all out agansit Zuko in Season 1. Because he had the upper hand against Zuko during last episode of Season 2 when he was only using his airbending.


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## Risyth (Aug 26, 2011)

Level7N00b said:


> Stomp the ground.


 

Thank you.


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## Gunners (Aug 26, 2011)

Soledad Eterna said:


> After fighting for a while.


Due to Aang's evasive nature. Even in the last episode he stomped Zuko as soon as he decided enough was enough ( with Earthbending alone). 

Zuko is not on par with Aang.


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## Wan (Aug 26, 2011)

Level7N00b said:


> Bumi's stamina was never shown to be a problem. And Ozai never fought without the comet, so it's pointless to speculate how powerful he is without it.



We know Ozai can make a quickass lightning bolt without the comet, that's about it.



> Stomp the ground.



Punch.



Dust said:


> Aang obviously wasn't going all out agansit Zuko in Season 1. Because he had the upper hand against Zuko during last episode of Season 2 when he was only using his airbending.



Aang was using earthbending in that fight too, and they were pretty even.  Actually, in that fight both Zuko and Azula seemed to get the upper hand on Aang.  He might not have been bringing his A game.


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## Level7N00b (Aug 26, 2011)

And what is lightning going to do with no type of movement added to it?

And stomping the ground is quicker than aiming and sending fire at someone.


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## Wan (Aug 26, 2011)

Look, punch.  Look, stomp.  Not much of a speed difference...


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## Kurou (Aug 26, 2011)

Stunna said:


> I doubt that. I mean, of course EOS Zuko, but in the beginning? No way, Azula was a natural born prodigy; it took something fierce for Zuko to stand a chance.




Except Zuko was extremely good himself, he was just a hot head.


If he had a calm personality and wasnt so emotional he would have been able to keep up with her. Had he trained more instead of being stupid he could have been something akin to s prodigy himself.


Though this is a what if scenario


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## RWB (Aug 26, 2011)

Bumi is more powerful, and could likely shield Iroh's comet attacks- even the 20 second charge fireball wasn't as impressive as I thought at first. 

Bumi has bent greater amounts of earth at once than the part of the wall Iroh blew apart(as has Toph). Heck, all the benders in the gaang bar Zuko can probably block him(aang with ANY type of bending, fire being the best choice).

Beyond a lucky explosion sending Bumi into the air, Iroh has little chance to win.



Make it Ozai instead, and Bumi is in a lot more trouble, trying to nail the fastest moving character in the series(except Avatar State Aang) who also flies.







Stunna said:


> No way, Azula was a natural born prodigy; it took something fierce for Zuko to stand a chance.



Zuko never surpassed sane Azula. Just saying. As far as being bender prodigy goes, Azula is FAR, FAR behind Katara, or even Toph.

Azula is possibly one of the characters who have worked the hardest to become great.


Katara pretty much caught up in less than a year, starting out as stupidly inept.

Toph, while obviously less WTF in growth than Katara, showed similar fast learning.

Yes, Azula is probably a equal or better bender, but she certainly is one of the lesser prodigies in that regard.


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## HiroshiSenju (Aug 26, 2011)

Are people actually suggesting that Zuko was even on par with Aang? Aang has proven time and time again to be Zuko's superior, even when half the time his main focus wasn't Zuko himself.


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## Stunna (Aug 26, 2011)

RWB said:


> Zuko never surpassed sane Azula. Just saying.



Surpassed? Maybe not. Equaled? Yeah.


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## Superrazien (Aug 26, 2011)

Well considering everyone seemed to universally agree only the Avatar could beat Ozai, it stands to reason Ozai could beat Bumi, and Iroh was the only person thought to be able to beat Ozai should the Avatar not show up. Granted this was with the comet. It sucks cause Iroh doesn't actually have many feats, even with the comet he barely did anything, but Iroh is suppose to be insanely powerful.

I personally would give it a tie.


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## Kurou (Aug 26, 2011)

He didnt equal her either. He said so himself which is why he needed Katara.


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## Light (Aug 26, 2011)

Him saying he needed Katara doesn't mean much. Because when they fought on the ship they were rivaling each other. They also rivaled each other at the Boiling Place.


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## Stunna (Aug 26, 2011)

I would take his shown feats over what he said. In _The Boiling Rock_ he fought evenly with Azula during their escapade. He may not have realized it, but he did. And if he did realize it, he still would have come to the conclusion that he would need Katara, as if they were evenly matched, it could have fallen to either side.


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## Kurou (Aug 26, 2011)

He didnt equal her at that point. He just showed that she could no longer dominate him.

It was apparent when he thought she would fall to her death and she effortlessly recovered that he was still not her equal.


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## Light (Aug 26, 2011)

How did he not equal her? None of them landed hits on each other and were fighting evenly.


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## Stunna (Aug 26, 2011)

How does that show that they weren't equal just because she was able to recover in midair?


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## Kurou (Aug 26, 2011)

Because it showed in terms of quick thinking and execution that she was  still ahead of him.



Seriously, just because no one hit each other doesnt make them equals


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## Light (Aug 26, 2011)

Well if someone was better than the other they wouldve landed a hit right?


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## Superrazien (Aug 26, 2011)

Maybe someone should start a Zuko VS Azula thread, just saying.


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## Stunna (Aug 26, 2011)

No, it's not necessarily just the fact that they were incapable of landing a blow on one another that shows that they were equals; it's the fact that it was the first time they were shown fighting that that'd ever occurred, and it continues to be that way until their final confrontation.

When they first fight in _The Avatar State_, Azula has the upper-hand the entire time, and even prepares to pump Zuko full of lightning at point blank before Iroh interferes.

Fast-forward to post-_The Firebending Masters_ and Zuko is capable of dishing out and tanking just as much as Azula is able to. He never fails to keep up ever again. It's always a draw in Zuko's favor.


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## Kurou (Aug 26, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> Well if someone was better than the other they wouldve landed a hit right?




They were shooting fire at each other which both blocked with more fire. Its not like they had a HtH battle.


Stunna said:


> No, it's not necessarily just the fact that they were incapable of landing a blow on one another that shows that they were equals; it's the fact that it was the first time they were shown fighting that that'd ever occurred, and it continues to be that way until their final confrontation.
> 
> When they first fight in _The Avatar State_, Azula has the upper-hand the entire time, and even prepares to pump Zuko full of lightning at point blank before Iroh interferes.
> 
> Fast-forward to post-_The Firebending Masters_ and Zuko is capable of dishing out and tanking just as much as Azula is able to. He never fails to keep up ever again. It's always a draw in Zuko's favor.



All that says is he got a lot better which even Azula comments on. 

I mean really, in most of their fights Azula seem more like she's just fucking around (while still trying to off him) where as Zuko's actually putting in maximum effort.


Even during there final confrontation she wasnt taking him all that seriously until later. This was while she was out of her normal character.


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## Light (Aug 26, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> They were shooting fire at each other which both blocked with more fire. Its not like they had a HtH battle.



And the fact the they were blocking each other so evenly proves they were equal. Look at it this way, if they weren't equal then Azula would have gotten the upper hand at some point. But she didn't. That reason might not make sense but when Azula first fought Zuko, Azula almost killed him. You skip a season later and they're able to trade blows so evenly.


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## Kurou (Aug 26, 2011)

Except most of their fights were interrupted/delayed so they never had a dragged out battle.


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## Stunna (Aug 26, 2011)

Re-watch the fights. Zuko effortlessly deflects _every single one_ of her attacks in both of their fights before the final Agni Kai. Everytime Azula _tries_ to show off her sadistic smile it's forced off her face.

When you go from being curbstomped to effortlessly parrying and returning attacks thrown your way, I think you've reached your opponent's level, if not exceeded it.


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## Light (Aug 26, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> Except most of their fights were interrupted/delayed so they never had a dragged out battle.



On the ship. They had a full fight which they ended because they blasted each other off. So they had a full fight which they ended themselves.


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## Kurou (Aug 26, 2011)

None of it was effortless on Zuko's part.



Thats also not what a full fight is Shine, it was a fight that ended abruptly due to circumstance. Especially since they needed to escape.


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## Stunna (Aug 26, 2011)

Yeah it was. There is no way in a million years you can convince me that Zuko was struggling against Azula and she wasn't. _Never._ We can't be watching the same fight, we just can't.


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## Light (Aug 26, 2011)

A full fight would mean going from start to finish. Even due to circumstances it would be a full fight due to it ended by their own hands and they didn't have any help. 

But them having a full fight wouldn't change anything. It would be equal but Zuko would win due to having higher stamina feats than Azula.


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## Superrazien (Aug 27, 2011)

Azula and Zuko have a symbolic meaning.

Zuko was always at battle with himself, he was always confused, and Azula was always confident about who she was, so Azula was always more dominate. When Zuko became at peace with himself, and learned the true way to firebend, he became equal to or greater than Azula as he shows. Zuko being on Azulas level, and having people that love him eventually starts to get to Azula and now she becomes confused and weak.


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## MrChubz (Aug 27, 2011)

Zuko was never stronger then Azula. When he went to face her he brought Katara as back-up just so he could win. The only reason he challenged her 1 on 1 was because he realized she lost her mind and would be a push-over.

As for the topic. I'll give it to Iroh. Ozai was pretty much regarded as the strongest man in the world. The only person said to even be able to challenge him (aside from Aang) was Iroh after he became a monster.


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## Kurou (Aug 27, 2011)

Stunna said:


> Yeah it was. There is no way in a million years you can convince me that Zuko was struggling against Azula and she wasn't. _Never._ We can't be watching the same fight, we just can't.


Denial is always ugly


ShineMonkey said:


> A full fight would mean going from start to finish. Even due to circumstances it would be a full fight due to it ended by their own hands and they didn't have any help.
> 
> But them having a full fight wouldn't change anything. It would be equal but Zuko would win due to having higher stamina feats than Azula.



And you totally dont understand what is meant by abrupt circumstance or are you going to say they wouldnt have continued fighting even if the ships never drifted apart.



You're also grasping at straws with the "stamina" argument.


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## Stunna (Aug 27, 2011)

Look in the mirror.

I guess I'm one ugly dude then.


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## RWB (Aug 28, 2011)

Stunna said:


> Re-watch the fights. Zuko effortlessly deflects _every single one_ of her attacks in both of their fights before the final Agni Kai. Everytime Azula _tries_ to show off her sadistic smile it's forced off her face.




BS. He has Sokka as back up in the first, and in the second she's already gone crazy- and she still wins(she would have survived without help. Zuko wouldn't).

Only in the finale does he have a real advantage, and by then she's completely of her rocker- oh, and she STILL wins. By being smarter than him. Despite being completely out of it.


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## Light (Aug 28, 2011)

RWB said:


> BS. He has Sokka as back up in the first, and in the second she's already gone crazy- and she still wins(she would have survived without help. Zuko wouldn't).
> 
> Only in the finale does he have a real advantage, and by then she's completely of her rocker- oh, and she STILL wins. By being smarter than him. Despite being completely out of it.



Sokka wasn't even fighting Azula with Zuko. In the one on the ship, she was sane.


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## Narcissus (Aug 28, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> Sokka wasn't even fighting Azula with Zuko. In the one on the ship, she was sane.



Yes he was, during the Boiling Rock. Zuko was defensive, dispersing all of Azula's attacks. Sokka would then hold her off with his sword. When Azula fought him on the ship, she wasn't fully insane, but you could already tell she was slipping.

And she still won that fight.


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## Light (Aug 28, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> Yes he was, during the Boiling Rock. Zuko was defensive, dispersing all of Azula's attacks. Sokka would then hold her off with his sword. When Azula fought him on the ship, she wasn't fully insane, but you could already tell she was slipping.
> 
> And she still won that fight.



She definitely did not win that fight. They both tied because they blew each other off the ship. And Zuko dispersing Azula's attacks prove that he had the skills to keep up.


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## Narcissus (Aug 28, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> She definitely did not win that fight. They both tied because they blew each other off the ship.


Yes she did. Without help, Zuko would've fallen to his death. Azula saved herself.


> And Zuko dispersing Azula's attacks prove that he had the skills to keep up.


No it doesn't. As Strike Man pointed out, it only showed that she couldn't dominate him anymore, not that he was her equal. It was the reason he needed the assistance.


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## Light (Aug 28, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> Yes she did. Without help, Zuko would've fallen to his death. Azula saved herself.



That's because Azula was falling down near a rock so she had somewhere to blast herself to. Zuko however had no where to go and it's not like Zuko wears hair pins



Narcissus said:


> No it doesn't. As Strike Man pointed out, it only showed that she couldn't dominate him anymore, not that he was her equal. It was the reason he needed the assistance.



Yes it does. She can't dominate him because he got strong enough to block her fire and fight with her equally. True that fight, he had Sokka's help but referring back to the ship, he was fighting with her equally.


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## Narcissus (Aug 28, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> That's because Azula was falling down near a rock so she had somewhere to blast herself to. Zuko however had no where to go and it's not like Zuko wears hair pins


No, it's because Azula had a superior skill set and the ability to think quickly on her feet. She used her fire to propel herself, which Zuko cannot do. Point is, Azula won that encounter.


> Yes it does. She can't dominate him because he got strong enough to block her fire and fight with her equally. True that fight, he had Sokka's help but referring back to the ship, he was fighting with her equally.


Being incapable of dominating him doesn't mean he became her equal. It just means he improved significantly. And as I said, she won the fight on the ship, even though her sanity was already slipping.


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## Light (Aug 28, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> No, it's because Azula had a superior skill set and the ability to think quickly on her feet. She used her fire to propel herself, which Zuko cannot do. Point is, Azula won that encounter.


Ok she used quick thinking but if Zuko  could propel  himself, where would he had gone? Like I said there was no where for Zuko to go.



Narcissus said:


> Being incapable of dominating him doesn't mean he became her equal. It just means he improved significantly. And as I said, she won the fight on the ship, even though her sanity was already slipping.



There was no signs suggesting her sanity slipping. They were matching each other perfectly on the ship. How did she win? Propelling herself onto a rock doesn't mean she one because Zuko survived to. Yeah he was saved but like I said in the above, there was no where for him to go/


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## Kurou (Aug 28, 2011)

Still at it huh.


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## Light (Aug 28, 2011)

Just saying Zuko was on par with Azula.


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## Narcissus (Aug 28, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> Ok she used quick thinking but if Zuko  could propel  himself, where would he had gone? Like I said there was no where for Zuko to go.


This is irrelevant, because he did not have that ability. As I said, he ultimately lost that fight because Azula had superior ability and quick thinking.


> There was no signs suggesting her sanity slipping. They were matching each other perfectly on the ship. How did she win? Propelling herself onto a rock doesn't mean she one because Zuko survived to. Yeah he was saved but like I said in the above, there was no where for him to go/


Yes there was. Her manner of speech was erratic, rather than her usual calm and collected self. And I told you how she won. They were both blasted off the ship, and Zuko had to be saved, while Azula saved herself. "He had no where to go" is an excuse, because even is he did, he lacked the ability to save himself anyway.


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## Light (Aug 28, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> This is irrelevant, because he did not have that ability. As I said, he ultimately lost that fight because Azula had superior ability and quick thinking.


It is not irrelevant. As I said and Azula saved herself because she propelled herself to a rock that was close to her. Zuko has enough skills to do the same thing. 

Ok let me put this another way. If person A and person B are falling at the same speed at the same distance, and person A is close enough to grab something, they'll grab it. But if person B has is further away from person A and they have no way to grab something, of course they'll fall



Narcissus said:


> Yes there was. Her manner of speech was erratic, rather than her usual calm and collected self. And I told you how she won. They were both blasted off the ship, and Zuko had to be saved, while Azula saved herself. "He had no where to go" is an excuse, because even is he did, he lacked the ability to save himself anyway.




Ok so there were other times when her manner of speech went on and off, like in season 02 when she yelled at uncle. You could say that's out of her behavior because she's usually calm but that doesn't mean anything. Also if a person yells that doesn't mean they're going crazy, especially since the sound of ships were making their voices sound like whispers so she had to yell.

Zuko probably could have saved himself to. He was jumping from ship to ship so he has great acrobatics.


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## Narcissus (Aug 28, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> It is not irrelevant. As I said and Azula saved herself because she propelled herself to a rock that was close to her. Zuko has enough skills to do the same thing.


Zuko has never shown the ability to propel himself via firebending the way Azula has. You've made an unsupported assertion, so yes, it is irrelevant.


> Ok let me put this another way. If person A and person B are falling at the same speed at the same distance, and person A is close enough to grab something, they'll grab it. But if person B has is further away from person A and they have no way to grab something, of course they'll fall


Which doesn't matter because Zuko lacked the necessary abilities to save himself, even if he was close enough. This was also, made obvious when Zuko was surprised when she saved herself.


> Ok so there were other times when her manner of speech went on and off, like in season 02 when she yelled at uncle. You could say that's out of her behavior because she's usually calm but that doesn't mean anything. Also if a person yells that doesn't mean they're going crazy, especially since the sound of ships were making their voices sound like whispers so she had to yell.
> 
> Zuko probably could have saved himself to. He was jumping from ship to ship so he has great acrobatics.


Azula yelled at Uncle because he interrupted her. She loses her calm when control is taken from her. Mai and Ty Lee's betrayal was the action that set in motion Azula's mental decline. And I said it was her erratic manner of speech, not that she shouted.

And jumping from a solid object with a running start is not the same as propelling yourself through the air. Zuko couldn't save himself.

In addition to not understanding the characters and their personalities or traits, you are also constructing unsupported assertions.


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## Light (Aug 28, 2011)

I understand just fine. First off going with Azula being crazy, no she wasn't. When May and Tai Lee betrayed her she was angry yes but not enough to make her go crazy. All you're saying is her manner of speech was different from usual but people can change speech patterns.  Other than her supposed speech difference, there are no other signs to suggest he was crazy at that point.

Now disregarding Zuko being able to save himself, you say Azula won because she had the skills and quck thinking to survive. Now where does that help her in a fight? If she had skills and quick thinking in the fight she should have been able to beat Zuko. Zuko didn't save himself but he got saved so there was no clear winner of the fight due to it ending how it did.


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## Narcissus (Aug 28, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> I understand just fine.


You clearly don't.


> First off going with Azula being crazy, no she wasn't.


Straw man fallacy. I said this was when her sanity started _slipping_, not that she was outright crazy.


> When May and Tai Lee betrayed her she was angry yes but not enough to make her go crazy. All you're saying is her manner of speech was different from usual but people can change speech patterns.  Other than her supposed speech difference, there are no other signs to suggest he was crazy at that point.


Because it's the only sign that was needed to show that she was not fully in character. Azula is calm, calculating, and cunning. She was erratic when she showed up there, and not herself.


> Now disregarding Zuko being able to save himself, you say Azula won because she had the skills and quck thinking to survive. Now where does that help her in a fight? If she had skills and quick thinking in the fight she should have been able to beat Zuko. Zuko didn't save himself but he got saved so there was no clear winner of the fight due to it ending how it did.


You're wrong because you're making false assumptions without evidence. I'm judging based off of what happened. And going by what happened, Zuko had no way of saving himself. Azula did, thus why she won that encounter. Zuko lost the moment he received outside assistance.


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## Light (Aug 28, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> You clearly don't.


I know what I'm talking about



Narcissus said:


> Straw man fallacy. I said this was when her sanity started _slipping_, not that she was outright crazy.


So her voice says she was slipping?



Narcissus said:


> Because it's the only sign that was needed to show that she was not fully in character. Azula is calm, calculating, and cunning. She was erratic when she showed up there, and not herself.


Ok I ask again. How was she not herself? Because her voice? That doesn't make sense. Azula was still cunning when she went there. She was able to save herself mid fall, cut off the group, and was able to I say again fight Zuko evenly.



Narcissus said:


> You're wrong because you're making false assumptions without evidence. I'm judging based off of what happened. And going by what happened, Zuko had no way of saving himself. Azula did, thus why she won that encounter. Zuko lost the moment he received outside assistance.



I'm not making false assumptions and where are your facts? You say she was slipping because of her voice but this was never proven as people can change her speaking patters. And the only outside help Zuko had was Appa saving him. If we're doing this like that then the rock saved Azula, cause the rock didn't have to be there.

And yes I know rocks aren't living life forms that can move but someone had to get Azula after the battle so technically speaking, someone saved her too.


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## Narcissus (Aug 28, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> I know what I'm talking about


You really don't, as you've shown repeatedly.


> So her voice says she was slipping?



The fact that she was out of character after the betrayal, which was what started her mental decline, says so.


> Ok I ask again. How was she not herself? Because her voice? That doesn't make sense. Azula was still cunning when she went there. She was able to save herself mid fall, cut off the group, and was able to I say again fight Zuko evenly.


Because she was out of character. And Azula is always cunning, even when she went fully insane, she still was clever enough to attack Katara knowing Zuko would jump in front of it. As I said, that was the beginning of her mental decline. It developed over time as she became more paranoid.


> *And the only outside help Zuko had was Appa saving him.* If we're doing this like that then the rock saved Azula, cause the rock didn't have to be there.



Wow... you don't have a particularly good sense of logic, at all.

Azula saved herself. Zuko was saved by someone else. Without Aang, Zuko would have died. Azula would have survived. The rock didn't save Azula, she saved herself.


> And yes I know rocks aren't living life forms that can move but someone had to get Azula after the battle so technically speaking, someone saved her too.




That has nothing to do with the fight between the two opponents.
In terms of the fight, Azula would've lived. Zuko would've died.

Therefore, Azula won the encounter.


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## Light (Aug 28, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> You really don't, as you've shown repeatedly.


Whatever



Narcissus said:


> The fact that she was out of character after the betrayal, which was what started her mental decline, says so.



Oh you mean the one time they showed her after in the following episode and she only said one sentence?



Narcissus said:


> Because she was out of character. And Azula is always cunning, even when she went fully insane, she still was clever enough to attack Katara knowing Zuko would jump in front of it. As I said, that was the beginning of her mental decline. It developed over time as she became more paranoid.



If she was cunning like you said she was then she should of have a plan to beat Zuko.




Narcissus said:


> Wow... you don't have a particularly good sense of logic, at all.



Yeah we're not all smart all the time.



Narcissus said:


> Azula saved herself. Zuko was saved by someone else. Without Aang, Zuko would have died. Azula would have survived. The rock didn't save Azula, she saved herself.



The fight ended when they fell off the ship because neither opponent was able to continue.


Narcissus said:


> That has nothing to do with the fight between the two opponents.
> In terms of the fight, Azula would've lived. Zuko would've died.
> 
> Therefore, Azula won the encounter.



Azula's goal was to kill Zuko, but she failed. She almost died herself. She did not win because  Zuko escaped with his life. Therefore no one won the encounter.


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## Gunners (Aug 28, 2011)

How did this turn into a Zuko vs Azula thread?


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## Lucaniel (Aug 28, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> I
> Ok I ask again. How was she not herself?







...


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## Banhammer (Aug 28, 2011)

Iz_it_becauze_her_voice_iz_weirD?


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## Light (Aug 28, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> ...



That's not the fight we were talking about. Also she only said one sentence and her voice wasn't even that wierd.


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## RWB (Aug 28, 2011)

...Azula failing to kill him does not mean she didn't win. Also, without assistance? She would live. He would die. 

And she was already declining into madness.


Sane Azula is better than Zuko. That never changed.


Also, look at the actual screens. Her fire pushes his back when both clash.





ShineMonkey said:


> The fight ended when they fell off the ship because neither opponent was able to continue.



Azula was. Zuko however, was plummeting to death.




ShineMonkey said:


> Azula's goal was to kill Zuko, but she failed. She almost died herself. She did not win because  Zuko escaped with his life. Therefore no one won the encounter.



Zuko got rescued.


Does Goku rescuing Gohan from dying to Nappa mean Nappa tied with Gohan? No. Same thing applies here.


Without backup: Zuko dies. Azula survives.



Anyone claiming Zuko surpassed sane Azula needs to rewatch the series. Period. He couldn't even beat her when she had started to slip.


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## Narcissus (Aug 28, 2011)

ShineMonkey said:


> Oh you mean the one time they showed her after in the following episode and she only said one sentence?


And every point after it showed her as being paranoid.


> If she was cunning like you said she was then she should of have a plan to beat Zuko.


She _did_ beat Zuko. She saved herself. Zuko would've died without Appa catching him. You're like a broken record.


> Yeah we're not all smart all the time.





> The fight ended when they fell off the ship because neither opponent was able to continue.


No, Azula was still able to take action. Zuko wasn't. She lives, he would've died. End of story.


> Azula's goal was to kill Zuko, but she failed. She almost died herself. She did not win because  Zuko escaped with his life. Therefore no one won the encounter.


Already covered by RWB, but a death is nor required to win a match. Azula displayed superior ability to her opponent. So Azula won. End of story.


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## Light (Aug 28, 2011)

Fine I concede.


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