# Link vs Sephiroth



## Fawful (Apr 23, 2009)

Just made this to settle a bet with my friend. They can use everything they have.
Sephiroth can use any materia, even summons to be fair.


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 23, 2009)

Sephiroth kills himself for sucking so much.


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## Utopia Realm (Apr 23, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Sephiroth kills himself for sucking so much.



I wholeheartedly agree.


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 23, 2009)

Link is'nt a character in the FF VII universe so he should win because he is'nt bound by the whole Seph must only loose when  he's arragant rule.


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

Sephiroth lets Link live because Link is awesome like that.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 23, 2009)

On a serious note, Link uses Nayru's Love and Chateau Milk


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## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

Link gets everything? So that's like Tri-Force, Majora's Mask, Sceptor of Seasons, and every other uber-magical item of power? What the hell man. Sephiroth pwns the dude in speed and strength, but Link is pretty much a god with all that shit. So unless Sephy can use *any* materia shown, then not sure what he can do. However, not sure if Link can take a hit from Bahamut Fury.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8VwaEv3z1M[/YOUTUBE]


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 23, 2009)

^ Maybe, maybe not.

Nayru's Love or Magic Armor is a No Limits Fallacy though.


But I'm leaning towards no, Nayru's Love or Magic Armor probably wouldn't tank a blow from Bahamut Fury.


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## Son Goku (Apr 23, 2009)

twilight princess link vs sephiroth 
link would most likely loss as his magic armor uses rupees and since im assuming (using all they have) doesnt include infinite resources he most likely couldnt go blow for blow with sepiroth for more than a few minutes

but

ocarina of time/majora's mask link vs sephiroth
since he has items such as the fierce deity's mask and unlimited magic giving milk it could go ether way

mind you this is only on my knowledge of each character


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 23, 2009)

> Nayru's Love or Magic Armor is a No Limits Fallacy though.
> But I'm leaning towards no, Nayru's Love or Magic Armor probably wouldn't tank a blow from Bahamut Fury.



Nayru's Love is dependant on the power of the goddess Nayru to protect its user, does Bahamut > a god?


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## Canute87 (Apr 23, 2009)

Link has the Master Sword. He wins.


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## Vergil642 (Apr 23, 2009)

Sephiroth by way of massive rape. Honestly, is this a Link hate thread?


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 23, 2009)

all equipment from all the games to Link??

Link rapes, he has a ton of weapons, unlimited magic, clothes for lessening damage, turn into a giant, magical shield, time stop and a huge etcetera


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

Is that before or after he gets his head sliced off?


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## Stroev (Apr 23, 2009)

Bahamut is the god of dragons though. 

Though I'll go with no on Nayru's Love and such tanking a blast like that, but Link should do fine with other items and such supporting him.


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

For all the people who say that NL or MA are no limits fallacies, try Magic Cape then ^____^ It doesn't block attacks, it just makes Link intangible. Oh, and invisible too. But the intangibility is what makes it awesome.

So somebody explain to me how Sephy's gonna defend against an invisible dude who's made three invisible clones of himself with the Four Sword when all of them are shooting invisible Sword Beams at his position =X Especially when said invisible dude can just phase through his defenses at will.


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 23, 2009)

Its way easier

Link stops time and stabs Sephirot in the head


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

Is that before or after Sephiroth slices his head off?


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

Neither, since Sephiroth will never slice his head off. You can't come before or after something that doesn't ever happen.


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

Sephiroth can easily cast stop and slice his head off at the start of the match with SKYSCRAPER SLASHES.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N26t6cSRLsw&feature=channel_page[/YOUTUBE]

And that's him just playing around and not even his strongest form.


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## Narcissus (Apr 23, 2009)

Sephiroth stomps Link in speed.  He slices Link in half with an energy blade before Link does anything.


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

And Link can easily use the Phantom Hourglass and stab Sephiroth in the face with a sword that killed a CASTLEBUSTER-TANKER. And since Sephy tends to be all dramatic to start his fights off, methinks the timestop quickdraw goes to Link.

And failing that, 99 Force Fairies from Four Sword Adventures. Wootwoot.


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

Sephiroth uses 99 phoenix downs then duh. Or just blows up the planet by calling Neo Bahamut Zero and Bahamut Fury.


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

Pretty sure you can't use a Phoenix Down on yourself. They don't auto-activate; you need a party member to toss it on you. And show me Sephy planet busting please o_O


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

For one he can summon Meteor with black materia and destroy the planet or he can use the combined might of the most powerful Bahamuts to do so. And wasn't there a reraise spell?


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## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

Sephy's spells would take time to cast, whereas Link getting on that cape is damn near instantaneous.  And once Seph's dead, he's dead, since he doesn't magically gain the ability to throw a phoenix down on his own corpse.  And even if he casted some auto-phoenix spell, guess what?  In that time, Link would have that cape on.  And guess what that means?  Those phoenix downs are useless now because Link can hurt Sephy while Sephy can't hurt him, meaning he can wittle those lives down to zip, zilch, nada and finish the fight.

That's not so complicated.  =D


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

Guess what at the start of the match it doesn't take much effort to throw a casual skyscraper slash to turn Link's body into goo.


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

I don't know if Autolife or anything like it appeared in FF7. It was in FF Tactics Advance, but Ivalace and Midgar or wherever FF7 took place are vastly different verses.

Also, if Sephy called in a planetbuster technique, wouldn't he have to clear the area to avoid busting himself with it? And wouldn't he have to give it a wide berth? Link, with the intangibility given by the Magic Cape, would stand right in the middle of it while Sephy loses by BFR.
This assuming Sephy can survive the vacuum of space, which I very much doubt. Link, on the other hand, would have roughly two weeks left. Keep downing Chateau Romanis to keep his Magic Cape active =3

EDIT: It actually takes Seph considerable effort. Or at least, it sure seems to, with as long as he spends posing before he actually unleashes the damn thing >___>


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## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

It takes more time than it does for Link to throw on that cape.

Which, may I remind you, makes him invisintangible.


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## Viciousness (Apr 23, 2009)

Can't Link go invisible, whoop out his Ocarina and hit a tune to slow down time, then put on his pegasus boots and spam quake, hit him with the fairy sword, some light arrows and throw some bombs at him?

Ahh who am I kiddin, that aint gonna do shit to sephiroth..whose bloodlusted and will kill him in a moment, and spam meteor if he has to. Link's best bet is to aerial attack sneak up on him with that bird or the cape, use the mirror to throw him into dark world and hope he transforms into a rabbit or something harmless, but he'd probably die trying. If Sephiroth were in links place, he'd probably cut the pyramid in half or blow it up then take out ganon with the quickness. And wasn't there a way to set phoenix downs in your bank so they activate the moment you die...
no wait I'm thinking of fairies in your jar in the zelda games. Actually link may come back to life and shock him..hookshot to the neck then bam! kaboom!


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## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

Unless he uses the strategy we've already set up.


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

How is putting on a cape faster than Sephiroth casually flicking his sword?


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## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

Because that actually takes time, whereas the cape is instantaneous.  Last I checked, Sephy's arm doesn't just instantly appear on the other side of his body and his opponent instantly dead.


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

Then like i said Seph casts stop on Link and goes away to cast Meteor.


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

Exactly. Link's items just appear wherever they're supposed to be the moment they're activated. That's fast. Like, speed-of-thought fast. Sephiroth doesn't move at supercognitive speeds.

EDIT: And like I said, Link's timestop would probably be faster.


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## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

And Stop *takes time to cast*.


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 23, 2009)

Why Link just doesnt start with gold armor, stops time and game over??


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

What can Link even do to hurt him? Sephiroth can tank his own skyscraping slashes.


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

Okay, but what about tanking castlebusters? Ganondorf did it casually when Midna went nuclear, and he was still dead as a doornail after a Master Sword in the chest.


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 23, 2009)

Stab him in the eyes


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## Stroev (Apr 23, 2009)

Giant's mask and smash ball.

Though the instantaneous equip thing is gameplay-bound.


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 23, 2009)

Stroev said:


> Giant's mask and smash ball.
> 
> Though the instantaneous equip thing is gameplay-bound.



but the OP said that both have all shit they had ever so that rule can be "broken"

Also theres somethings which are instantaneous like time stop


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

Sephiroth uses Supernova GG. We're using gameplay mechanics right.


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 23, 2009)

Can Supernova kill Link with gold armor, 1000 rupees, red ring, lon lon milk and nayru's love??

edit: plus bottle fairy and gold potion??


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

Even by gameplay mechanics, SN wouldn't do jack =/ Because the same mechanics insure that all planets harmed in the making return to existence, and it doesn't kill people in one hit.


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

Spanish Hoffkage said:


> Can Supernova kill Link with gold armor, 1000 rupees, red ring, lon lon milk and nayru's love??
> 
> edit: plus bottle fairy and gold potion??




Yep. It can. If we can use any form Sephi's Kingdom Hearts form uses Heartless Angel, then Flash, then Teleport Slash.


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 23, 2009)

Link unless Seph can revive himself, i remind you


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

Heartless Angel? Are you freaking kidding me? XD You honestly believe that he could stand in the corner posing in the wind for half a minute and Link wouldn't sink an Ice Arrow into his ass?


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

What posing? He just raises his hand in the air. And an Ice Arrow would do jack shit to Sephiroth.


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

Getting hit with Absolute Zero Degrees wouldn't freeze his ass solid? And if I remember right, in KH2 he flies up, poses while SSSLLLOOOWWWLLLYYY calling it out, then...I'm not sure what happens after that. I always, always, always knock him out of it.


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## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

What Ref said.

That move takes for-freaking-ever to use.


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

1. Link isn't Sora
2. Where the fuck did you get that Ice arrows are absolute zero? Where do you come up with this bullshit?


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## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

Where the hell did you get the idea that he claimed Link was Sora?


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

1) Link > Sora. Sora's style is just as laggy as Sephy's e____e Link's quick and to the point, no spinny BS about it.
2) From canon, senor. The Ice Arrows are promised to douse any flame. They couldn't make that guarantee if they were anything less than AZ. If they were 1 degree Kelvin, then some stupidly hot fire SOMEWHERE would withstand them. But no, they're promised to even take out said stupidly hot SOMEWHERE-fire. Thus, coldest temperature known to man is necessary.


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

LMAO your claims are so fallacious it made me laugh out loud. The Ice arrows are said to douse any flame because they are magic, not because they are coldest temperature known to man, my god you new people sure are funny.


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## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

And if they're able to douse any flame, they're as cold as absolute zero.  Due to magic or not, that's the case.

Instead of just laughing and thinking you're right, how 'bout you actually do some debating?  =D


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

LMAO you people who laugh at my arguments because you can't think of anything to counter them with sure are funny. What else would you put out a fire with, magical heat? And if they were just "stop fire from working" arrows, then they wouldn't freeze people, they'd just stop their fires from working.

That's like me saying that Fire Flans are only weak to Blizzaga because it's ice MAGIC. No, I'm pretty sure they'd be pretty angry if you pushed them into a swimming pool.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

In Final Fantasy Crisis Core which is a spinoff of Final Fantasy VII Phoenix Downs have automatic revival. I see this battle ending  up in a stalemate since netheir will be able to kill eachother.


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

Supertails said:


> And if they're able to douse any flame, they're as cold as absolute zero.  Due to magic or not, that's the case.
> 
> Instead of just laughing and thinking you're right, how 'bout you actually do some debating?  =D



How about you come up with some evidence that says the Ice Arrows are absolute zero instead of some nonsense claim that it douses any flame. And last time i checked Sephiroth isn't a flame.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

I'm not sure where Referee is getting this idea that Ice Arrows are Absolute Zero, if they were there would be no reason for Light Arrows.


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## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

Wait, so when it says it douses any flame *right in the game*, that's a nonsense claim (holy shit that was a super-rhyme)?

And the ice arrows freeze people, too.

Really, have you ever *played* a Zelda game?

@above:  Why?  Light arrows hurt Ganon, king of *dark*ness.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Supertails said:


> Wait, so when it says it douses any flame *right in the game*, that's a nonsense claim (holy shit that was a super-rhyme)?
> 
> And the ice arrows freeze people, too.
> 
> ...



So why bother even using Light arrows? Why not just freeze Ganondorf and get it over with?


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

Because according to Supertails they are absolute zero. 

I think he deserves the  award.


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## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

Hey-hey, gotta love the ad hominems, huh?  =D

Anyways, since it seems I'm the only one that feels like giving actual arguments and not just saying "HAY LOL UR RONG O N UR DUM 2 LOLOL", because Ganon is too powerful to be frozen by the ice arrows.  Or it could have something to do with the fact that he's a powerful wizard.

There, was that so hard?


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Supertails said:


> Hey-hey, gotta love the ad hominems, huh?  =D
> 
> Anyways, since it seems I'm the only one that feels like giving actual arguments and not just saying "HAY LOL UR RONG O N UR DUM 2 LOLOL", because Ganon is too powerful to be frozen by the ice arrows.  Or it could have something to do with the fact that he's a powerful wizard.
> 
> There, was that so hard?



Yet you think an Ice Arrow will freeze Sephiroth. I suggest you go watch Advent Children Complete and see the extra battle scenes with Sephiroth, before you come here and start babbling nonsense about absolute zero arrows, which has never been stated in a zelda game. I honestly enjoy these fanfics in the BattleDome


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## Stroev (Apr 23, 2009)

Or no, Ice Arrows have not been shown to be absolute zero.

Link still wins, and is better than Sora.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Stroev said:


> Or no, Ice Arrows have not been shown to be absolute zero.
> 
> Link still wins, and is better than Sora.



Can you give a proper arguement as to how Link wins, and not just say Link wins? Also what does Sora have to do with this battle?


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

> How about you come up with some evidence that says the Ice Arrows are absolute zero instead of some nonsense claim that it douses any flame. And last time i checked Sephiroth isn't a flame.


There's also the fact that when you fire them into the ocean, the surface of it grows misty for as far as the eye can see and a gigantic spire of ice appears where you fired it. But apparently if it beats any fire and can turn the world misty blue, it's only about 32 degrees Fahrenheit, yeah?

Seriously, this argument makes zero sense. Sephiroth isn't a flame, so 32-degree world-frosting flame-dousing arrows don't effect him. Sure. Just like how Link isn't a building, so Sephiroth can't chop him in half because his sword's just hard and silver and dislikes buildings.


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## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

Will you guys for once give a proper argument on how Sephy wins and *not* ignore every good point brought up?  Seriously, everytime we bring up a point, you argue it, we take down that argument, then you make another one *completely missing the point we'd just made*.

It says *right when you get the freaking ice arrows in WindWaker* that they are guaranteed to *douse any flame*.  Jésus Christo, can you guys really do anything but try and insult your way out of this?

Me:  *makes a point*
You:  WOW LOL no ur dum
Me:  *makes another point*
You:  LOLOLOL ur relly dum
Me:  Will you actually argue?  *makes another point*
You:  sher.  ur rong and LOL UR DUM


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## The World (Apr 23, 2009)

Nice Strawman. Go hide behind it some moar.


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## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

Nice job not making any point at all.  Keep it up.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Referee said:


> There's also the fact that when you fire them into the ocean, the surface of it grows misty for as far as the eye can see and a gigantic spire of ice appears where you fired it. But apparently if it beats any fire and can turn the world misty blue, it's only about 32 degrees Fahrenheit, yeah?
> 
> Seriously, this argument makes zero sense. Sephiroth isn't a flame, so 32-degree world-frosting flame-dousing arrows don't effect him. Sure. Just like how Link isn't a building, so Sephiroth can't chop him in half because his sword's just hard and silver and dislikes buildings.



I'm still waiting for this proof that Ice Arrows have been stated to be Absolute Zero.

I find it so funny that you call yourselves Zelda-Fanboys yet you don't even know the greatest accomplishment the Ice Arrow has made. Oh well if you can't figure it out that's too bad


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

I gave you proof DDDX They douse any flame and turn the whole world blue for several seconds when you miss a shot with them. Your fridge isn't cold enough for its effects to be seen WORLDWIDE. This is Ice magic like Blizzaga, but with the lasting power to be seen from anywhere on the globe. If that's not AZ, then it's still more than that posing bishie could handle in twelve million years.


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## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

Oh my God.... -___-

Here

Watch.  Around 2:10.

And now you're gonna claim it was edited or some crap like that.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Supertails said:


> Oh my God.... -___-
> 
> Here
> 
> ...



They can freeze the Hottest Flames. Hmm Interesting, thank you for stating something that has everyone already knows. Where's this absolute zero? :/


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## Stroev (Apr 23, 2009)

ChidoriCurrent said:


> Can you give a proper arguement as to how Link wins, and not just say Link wins? Also what does Sora have to do with this battle?


Sora was mentioned eralier with little relation to the thread.

And Link winning was debated on the first two pages.


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## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

So if he shoots one into the sun, the Sun will go out?


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> So if he shoots one into the sun, the Sun will go out?



Apparently, because they're so epic they can freeze anything, yet they can't even prove it.


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## Xaosin (Apr 23, 2009)

Sephiroth indeed wins this, even if we throw in game mechanics. Sephiroth at prime would shit all over Link with his speed and his broken-ness, whose to say he couldn't slit Link out before he ever gets a chance to equip or use any of his items anyway?


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## Itachi2000 (Apr 23, 2009)

Sephiroth destroys that pussy link


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## Stroev (Apr 23, 2009)

Sephiroth could dodge them anyways, Link can use his inventory in far more efficient ways. 

Which have already been explained.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

herewegodudes said:


> Sephiroth indeed wins this, even if we throw in game mechanics. Sephiroth at prime would shit all over Link with his speed and his broken-ness, whose to say he couldn't slit Link out before he ever gets a chance to equip or use any of his items anyway?



Nope going by what Referee and Supertails are saying, Link can put a cape over his neck and tie it, in the time it would take Sephiroth to teleport Instantaneously and lop off Link's head.

P.S. Still waiting for proof of absolute zero ice arrows.


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## Stroev (Apr 23, 2009)

Itachi2000 said:


> Sephiroth destroys that pussy link


lol



herewegodudes said:


> Sephiroth indeed wins this, even if we throw in game mechanics. Sephiroth at prime would shit all over Link with his speed and his broken-ness, whose to say he couldn't slit Link out before he ever gets a chance to equip or use any of his items anyway?


Game mechnics on, it's instantaneous.



ChidoriCurrent said:


> Nope going by what Referee and Supertails are saying, Link can put a cape over his neck and tie it, in the time it would take Sephiroth to teleport Instantaneously and lop off Link's head.
> 
> P.S. Still waiting for proof of absolute zero ice arrows.


As I just said. 

Ice arrows aren't absolute zero, I agree with you.(though the blue after effect of missing was a good point). No need to debate.


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## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

Sephy junctions Auto-Cast with Phoenix materia, so even if he was downed, he auto-revives and blasts Link to dust.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

The only way i see this battle going is a Stalemate. Since we're going by Gameplay Mechanics, Sephiroth can just cast reflect all day long and can fly so i don't know how link is going to get up there. Link is intagible so Sephiroth can't hit him unless  Referee or Supertails come up with some bs about Hover boots/Pegasus boots.


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## Stroev (Apr 23, 2009)

Link has fairies. 

Oh, and Sephiroth runs out of magic. Link doesn't.


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## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

One point. Bahamut ignores all defenses and deals direct damage.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Stroev said:


> Link has fairies.



How strong are they 



Raigen said:


> One point. Bahamut ignores all defenses and deals direct damage.



Intangibility isn't a defense, so Bahamut can't hurt Link.


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> So if he shoots one into the sun, the Sun will go out?



Righto, kindly show me a time where Link's fired an arrow hundreds and thousands of miles, as would be necessary to sunsnipe. His arrows can't go that far, nor would he want them to, because extinguishing the sun would be very, very bad.

Also, somebody said something about Sephy dodging them. I was talking about firing them while he's posing like a douche about to unleash his Heartless Angel. He doesn't move a muscle during that, and I think his eyes are closed.

But fuck this lot, Link uses the Phantom Hourglass, clones with the Four Sword, then uses the Finisher Parry from WW on Sephiroth a million times before time thaws back out >____>; While intangible, of course.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Referee said:


> Righto, kindly show me a time where Link's fired an arrow hundreds and thousands of miles, as would be necessary to sunsnipe. His arrows can't go that far, nor would he want them to, because extinguishing the sun would be very, very bad.
> 
> Also, somebody said something about Sephy dodging them. I was talking about firing them while he's posing like a douche about to unleash his Heartless Angel. He doesn't move a muscle during that, and I think his eyes are closed.
> 
> But fuck this lot, Link uses the Phantom Hourglass, clones with the Four Sword, then uses the Finisher Parry from WW on Sephiroth a million times before time thaws back out >____>; While intangible, of course.



Sephiroth uses Reflect


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## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

Intangibility is a form of defense. Regardless, Bahamut blows a hole hundreds of meters deep and Link simply falls to his doom. Or, you know, if he was really intangible, he'd fall right through the ground.


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 23, 2009)

PimpCC said:


> Just made this to settle a bet with my friend. They can use everything they have.
> Sephiroth can use any materia, even summons to be fair.




Supernova vs Fierce Deity Link. Excellent.


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## Stroev (Apr 23, 2009)

Referee said:


> Righto, kindly show me a time where Link's fired an arrow hundreds and thousands of miles, as would be necessary to sunsnipe. His arrows can't go that far, nor would he want them to, because extinguishing the sun would be very, very bad.


Well, he did fire one _towards_ the sun in OoT... 



> Also, somebody said something about Sephy dodging them. I was talking about firing them while he's posing like a douche about to unleash his Heartless Angel. He doesn't move a muscle during that, and I think his eyes are closed.


Forgot about that.



> But fuck this lot, Link uses the Phantom Hourglass, clones with the Four Sword, then uses the Finisher Parry from WW on Sephiroth a million times before time thaws back out >____>; While intangible, of course.


Difficult and more than likely to fail than succed...

I can imagine Sephiroth breaking out easily, too. Far faster than a frozen enemy.



ChidoriCurrent said:


> How strong are they


Think of them as a hi-potion or an Auto-Raise/Life2/whatever.


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

ChidoriCurrent said:


> Sephiroth uses Reflect



While he's timefrozen? How's that work? o_O


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## Stroev (Apr 23, 2009)

So it's all coming down to Link attempting to hit Sephiroth, Sephiroth tossing Link around, doing no type of damage.

Or a stalemate.


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## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

Link needs time to play the song for time freeze. It only takes Sephy a fraction of a second to stab'im in the head.


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## Stroev (Apr 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Link needs time to play the song for time freeze. It only takes Sephy a fraction of a second to stab'im in the head.


Invincibilty? The only thing against link is that he'll be thrown around, making it difficult for maneuverability and such.

No timestop for any musical instruments, but he needs to create an image instead(PH).


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 23, 2009)

Reminds me of the Ganondorf vs Sephiroth, and Link vs Cloud thread on another certain forum, which both threads had ended in a stalemate lul. 

But I digress. Link can evade damage for a time with his magic tunic depending on how many rupees he has.


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## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

ChidoriCurrent said:


> Apparently, because they're so epic they can freeze anything, yet they can't even prove it.


Freezes the hottest goddamn flame.  You read it yourself.  That means, no matter what the heat, it's frozen.  Guess what?  Like Ref *already said but you chose to ignore* is that even if the flame's a billion effing degrees, it's frozen.  The only possible way it could freeze *any flame* is by being absolute zero.

This really is too hard for you, isn't it?


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## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

He doesn't get thrown around when he's using his Magic Cape, though. Attacks just go right through and Link stabs the attacker as they follow their strike through.


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## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

Uh, no. It being able to freeze any flame just means it has the magical ability to do so. has nothing to do with 'absolute zero'


----------



## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

And it's also shown it can freeze people, so this ability is obviously not limited to flames.


----------



## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

just means it's cold. Know a lot of guys who can freeze people who still don't hit absolute zero.


----------



## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

Still, if it's cold enough to freeze a flame of a billion degrees, make an entire ocean (and sky) shimmer with blue just by touching the water, freeze people, etc., I think it's safe to say it could possibly freeze Sephiroth.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

You're taking both pieces of information separately, Rai. It's cold enough to freeze people. This means that its power actually does fight back flames, rather than just stopping them like Dumbledore's lighter, as you guys seem to think it does. It IS ice-based. The other piece is that it's strong enough ice-based to fight back any flame.

You guys tried insisting that it works like Dumbledore's lighter, but its power comes from actually just being that damn cold.


----------



## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

It's hyperbole is what it is. It has never actually been proven that it can freeze any flame, only stated that it could. There's nothing to actually back it.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

So freezing an erupting volcano in place forever and turning the entire world blue when fired just prove that it's a little chilly. Understood.


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Supertails said:


> Freezes the hottest goddamn flame.  You read it yourself.  That means, no matter what the heat, it's frozen.  Guess what?  Like Ref *already said but you chose to ignore* is that even if the flame's a billion effing degrees, it's frozen.  The only possible way it could freeze *any flame* is by being absolute zero.
> 
> This really is too hard for you, isn't it?



If it's absolute zero, why is it that when Link shot an Ice Arrow at the sun to get the Fire Arrows, the sun didn't freeze? Please take your fanfics elsewhere.
Even with your fanfic ideologies sephiroth can cast reflect and freeze Link with his epic "Absolute Zero Ice Arrows" since intangibility can't do shit against the epic Ice Arrows. Like I Stroev have said already this battle will end in a Stalemate.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

Unless Link just screws this dumb Ice Arrow debate, timestops, and shanks Sephiroth in the face repeatedly.


----------



## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

Magma is several thousand degrees. Do the people Link freezes shatter into little pieces when he hits them?


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Magma is several thousand degrees. Do the people Link freezes shatter into little pieces when he hits them?



Actually yes they do.


----------



## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

ChidoriCurrent said:


> If it's absolute zero, why is it that when Link shot an Ice Arrow at the sun to get the Fire Arrows, the sun didn't freeze? Please take your fanfics elsewhere.
> Even with your fanfic ideologies sephiroth can cast reflect and freeze Link with his epic "Absolute Zero Ice Arrows" since intangibility can't do shit against the epic Ice Arrows. Like I Stroev have said already this battle will end in a Stalemate.


He didn't *hit* the sun.  His arrows can't travel several hundred million miles in a second.  Hell, it takes more than a second just to fire one across the *lake*.


----------



## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

Shouldn't happen since frozen bodies bounce, they don't shatter. In any case he may have reached the point of Movie Sub-Zero in Mortal Kombat who did the exact same thing.


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Referee said:


> Unless Link just screws this dumb Ice Arrow debate, timestops, and shanks Sephiroth in the face repeatedly.



Oh so now you're stepping away from the arguement you were using for the last 5 pages. Ok Sephiroth Casts Stop before Link can play his Ocarina. Can link stop time without playing a song? i'm pretty sure using materia is faster than playing an Ocarina.


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Supertails said:


> He didn't *hit* the sun.  His arrows can't travel several hundred million miles in a second.  Hell, it takes more than a second just to fire one across the *lake*.



So where did the fire arrows come from? Did link magically hit something floating in the sky that gave him the fire arrows? Honestly this is too funny.


----------



## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

Sephiroth can move faster than Link can play an instrument. Sephy takes the thing and jams it up Link's ass. See'im play it now.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

I find it funny that you're arguing that Link's arrows are intergalactic XD I can live with sniping like that. Link teleports back home and shoots Sephy across several planets.

Sadly, I've seen his arrows fall over the course of half a large field =/ No planetary sniping for me.

EDIT: How's he gonna jam anything anywhere when it's all intangible =3


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 23, 2009)

Jeez, they should rename the series The Fallacies of Zelda...


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Referee said:


> I find it funny that you're arguing that Link's arrows are intergalactic XD I can live with sniping like that. Link teleports back home and shoots Sephy across several planets.
> 
> Sadly, I've seen his arrows fall over the course of half a large field =/ No planetary sniping for me.
> 
> EDIT: How's he gonna jam anything anywhere when it's all intangible =3



So explain to me *WHAT* link hit in the fucking sky that give him the fire arrows, if he did not hit the sun. If you can't explain this then just leave the thread.


----------



## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

Maybe, I don't know.  The ritual to get the fire arrows involved firing a fire arrow at the sun.  There've been weirder things that happen in Zelda.

I really don't get why you're trying to deny something said in the damn game itself.  I may as well argue "lol sephiroth isnt relly strong u hav no pruf maybe clowd n teh uthrs r dolls".

And if you absolutely refuse to believe he didn't hit the sun, in which case Link obviously has a godly firing arm, in which case he could probably kick Seph's pansy ass with one arrow, the description is from WindWaker.  And since he has all weapons, he can use the WindWaker arrows, which are the super-freezing ones.

It's an effing ritual.  You don't have to hit something for a ritual.  You just have to do a specific thing then something appears.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 23, 2009)

Link can stop time? 

He can teleport?


----------



## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

In one Zelda series, Link's partner is a talking chic (a literal baby chicken that'd just hatched).


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 23, 2009)

> So explain to me WHAT link hit in the fucking sky that give him the fire arrows, if he did not he the sun.


A wizard did it.


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Supertails said:


> Maybe, I don't know.  The ritual to get the fire arrows involved firing a fire arrow at the sun.  There've been weirder things that happen in Zelda.
> 
> I really don't get why you're trying to deny something said in the damn game itself.  I may as well argue "lol sephiroth isnt relly strong u hav no pruf maybe clowd n teh uthrs r dolls".
> 
> And if you absolutely refuse to believe he didn't hit the sun, in which case Link obviously has a godly firing arm, in which case he could probably kick Seph's pansy ass with one arrow, the description is from WindWaker.  And since he has all weapons, he can use the WindWaker arrows, which are the super-freezing ones.



Ok so first you say he didn't hit the sun, now you're saying he did infact hit the sun. Why didn't the sun freeze?


----------



## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

Darth Nihilus said:


> Link can stop time?
> 
> He can teleport?



Phantom Hourglass (the item that the game's named after) and Farore's Wind, respectively ^____^


----------



## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

I said he didn't.  Where the hell did I say he did?


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 23, 2009)

lol


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 23, 2009)

Referee said:


> Phantom Hourglass (the item that the game's named after) and Farore's Wind, respectively ^____^



Never played it, sadly ._.


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Referee said:


> Phantom Hourglass (the item that the game's named after) and Farore's Wind, respectively ^____^



Aww but in the time it'll take link to take out his Phantom Hour Class, and cast Farore's Wind which takes like 10 seconds sephiroth would have casted stop :/


----------



## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

....you realize he didn't even fire an ice arrow into the sun?  That was a normal freaking arrow.  -__-;;


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Supertails said:


> I said he didn't.  Where the hell did I say he did?



*And if you absolutely refuse to believe he didn't hit the sun*, in which case Link obviously has a godly firing arm, in which case he could probably kick Seph's pansy ass with one arrow, the description is from WindWaker. And since he has all weapons, he can use the WindWaker arrows, which are the super-freezing ones.

It's an effing ritual. You don't have to hit something for a ritual. You just have to do a specific thing then something appears.

This is just too much


----------



## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

Okay, so he fired at the sun's general direction and where was a flash of light. We never actually saw a collision, so I figure the ritual was just "Reach for the stars =D"

That, or you guys admit that Link can fire arrows across interstellar distances in under ten seconds. Works for me; Link makes a pincushion out of Sephy with arrows that travel faster than bullets.


----------



## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

ChidoriCurrent said:


> Aww but in the time it'll take link to take out his Phantom Hour Class, and cast Farore's Wind which takes like 10 seconds sephiroth would have casted stop :/



Or stabbed him in the head, unless Link decides to tie on cloak first. I think Link can't move cause of all the shit he has on him now.


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Supertails said:


> ....you realize he didn't even fire an ice arrow into the sun?  That was a normal freaking arrow.  -__-;;



Funny isn't it, Someone else who isn't a raging fanboy as yourself and referee actually managed to realize that it wasn't an ice arrow.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 23, 2009)

Supertails said:


> ....you realize he didn't even fire an ice arrow into the sun?  That was a normal freaking arrow.  -__-;;



Why does it have to be an ice arrow


----------



## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

You realize I'm not even a fanboy, right?  Nor did I ever claim to be.

Oh, wait, that would mean one less insult for you to use.  Of course you won't recognize that fact.


----------



## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

Cause normal arrows suck and using a fire arrow to make a fire arrow is redundant.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Cause normal arrows suck and using a fire arrow to make a fire arrow is redundant.



A better explanation, please.


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Supertails said:


> You realize I'm not even a fanboy, right?  Nor did I ever claim to be.
> 
> Oh, wait, that would mean one less insult for you to use.  Of course you won't recognize that fact.



Why do you only post when it's a topic about Link? Remember the Sora vs Link Debate? all 40 of your posts have been related to Link Vs X threads. You and Referee were all over that thread as well. I'm pretty sure you're a fanboy


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Cause normal arrows suck and using a fire arrow to make a fire arrow is redundant.



And using an ice arrow to make a fire arrow isn't an oxymoron?


----------



## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

There's no real reason.  XD


----------



## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

ChidoriCurrent said:


> Why do you only post when it's a topic about Link? Remember the Sora vs Link Debate? You and Referee were all over that thread as well. I'm pretty sure you're a fanboy


I wonder if it's also odd that I only post in threads that Ref posts in?

OH WAIT.  Could it possibly be that he's linking me to these threads?


----------



## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

People forget. Link gets pwned by Chickens when they get pissed off.


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Hot for Words
Hot for Words

I'm not a fanboy!!AHDFKS DURRRR



Supertails said:


> I wonder if it's also odd that I only post in threads that Ref posts in?
> 
> OH WAIT.  Could it possibly be that he's linking me to these threads?



I wouldn't be surprised if you were his brother, or alternate account that he uses to try and win his fanfic debates.

Why do you only post in Link Discussions? you have 42 posts, 41 of them being Link related. Why not post on other Discussions?


----------



## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

Those are some deadly chickens, dude.  Invincible pissed-off chickens = Scary.

@above:  Link to two dead links and shout gibberish?

....okay....


----------



## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

ChidoriCurrent said:


> Why do you only post when it's a topic about Link? Remember the Sora vs Link Debate? You and Referee were all over that thread as well. I'm pretty sure you're a fanboy



For the last time, I wasn't in that thread out of Link fanboyism, I was in it because I honestly saw a million and a half ways for Link to win. And you'll remember, you agreed when you stopped to think about it. The only thing that won it for them was that each of them remembered a shot at INFINITE invincibility. If not for that, by your own admission, Link woulda pwnzed.

Saying that I was arguing out of fanboyism is a lame straw man D= Fanboyism would be insisting that Link's penis is bigger. Which it is, but that's beside the point.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 23, 2009)

ChidoriCurrent said:


> Hot for Words
> Hot for Words
> 
> I'm not a fanboy!!AHDFKS DURRRR



Yay, how completely irrelevant to the thread.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 23, 2009)

So where do we file a petition for more mods? This place is getting way out of hand of late...


----------



## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> People forget. Link gets pwned by Chickens when they get pissed off.



And Sephiroth gets pwned by cacti. Your point?


----------



## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

Sephy pwns the Cacti. And I've love to see Link try and face down a Tonberry.


----------



## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

I'd like to see Sephy beat one of those pissed-off chickens.

Seeing as they're, like, kinda *invincible*.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 23, 2009)

I love it when people bring up low end showings just to act as if they're making a point.


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> So where do we file a petition for more mods? This place is getting way out of hand of late...



I agree fanboy raging ruins all these good threads


----------



## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

Well Sepy kinda pwned a town and walked through fire without being hurt. Oh and Sephy is unkillable since he just returns to the life stream and revives. And you know he could just cast Death which insta-kills Link after a number of seconds or casts Erase just removes Link from existence. Sephy won't get any items, xp, gp or nuttin, but it'd be over.


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Well Sepy kinda pwned a town and walked through fire without being hurt. Oh and Sephy is unkillable since he just returns to the life stream and revives. And you know he could just cast Death which insta-kills Link after a number of seconds or casts Erase just removes Link from existence. Sephy won't get any items, xp, gp or nuttin, but it'd be over.



Well we're going by gameplay mechanics, so Lifestream is perfectly acceptable. I guess i was right about a Stalemate


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 23, 2009)

lol Gameplay Mechanics. I guess that Sephiroth really can create a supernova.


----------



## Raigen (Apr 23, 2009)

Well first to get to Sephiroth Link will need to face down Bizzaro Sephiroth and all 5 of his parts, and then it's Safer Sephiroth with Super Nova, Shadow Flare, Pale Horse and several other powers.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

ChidoriCurrent said:


> I agree fanboy raging ruins all these good threads



Good thing there's none of that here, just straw men and circular arguments =D

I'm done here. I couldn't change your mind even if Tetsuya Nomura wrote that Sephiroth's weakness is kids in green clothes and Shigeru Miyamoto wrote that Link instantly kills failtastic emo bishounen just by looking at them. You're just going to keep calling me a fanboy when the truth is, I'm just better at using Link than you are, and I know all his little tricks. That's not an attack, it's just that you're not willing to learn how to use Link to his full potential because you have this preconceived notion of him exploding because he doesn't measure up to your arbitrary definition of hardcore.

But I'll leave you with this. Chateau Romani's effect is extended when time is slowed; if either party stopped time, it would last forever. So if Link puts on the Cape and Sephy freezes him, he's just guaranteed an invincible punching bag. If Link puts on the Cape and then uses the PH, then his opponent's stopped moving and Link can phase his hand through his chest and then materialize it. Yay for stabbing inside-out =D
You're gonna call that a dumbshit fanboy rambling, but I don't care. I thought you'd realized that I actually DID just have a good understanding of Link's powers, but nope. You're just as unwilling as ever to admit that I know what I'm talking about =3


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Referee said:


> Good thing there's none of that here, just straw men and circular arguments =D
> 
> I'm done here. I couldn't change your mind even if Tetsuya Nomura wrote that Sephiroth's weakness is kids in green clothes and Shigeru Miyamoto wrote that Link instantly kills failtastic emo bishounen just by looking at them. You're just going to keep calling me a fanboy when the truth is, I'm just better at using Link than you are, and I know all his little tricks. That's not an attack, it's just that you're not willing to learn how to use Link to his full potential because you have this preconceived notion of him exploding because he doesn't measure up to your arbitrary definition of hardcore.
> 
> ...



I love your bias. Emo bishounen shows how open you are to characters that are paired up in the battledome. You have the preconception of hating on Bishounen characters, so there is no point of you even being in this thread. I thank you for proving my point. It's no wonder you were hating on Sora and his battle-style. Trust me you're doing us all a favor by leaving the thread.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 23, 2009)

I see that we have not strayed away from the topic and it has now changed to be about fanboyism


----------



## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

ChidoriCurrent said:


> I love your bias. Emo bishounen shows how open you are to characters that are paired up in the battledome. You have the preconception of hating on Bishounen characters, so there is no point of you even being in this thread. I thank you for proving my point. It's no wonder you were hating on Sora and his battle-style. Trust me you're doing us all a favor by leaving the thread.


And I see that you *still* refuse to recognize good points just because Ref makes a joke.

You're really, really, really thick-headed, you know that?


----------



## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

ChidoriCurrent said:


> I love your bias. Emo bishounen shows how open you are to characters that are paired up in the battledome. You have the preconception of hating on Bishounen characters, so there is no point of you even being in this thread. I thank you for proving my point. It's no wonder you were hating on Sora and his battle-style. Trust me you're doing us all a favor by leaving the thread.



Except how much I like them has nothing to do with how well they can fight. There are lots of people that I HATED in elementary school who could kick my ass up, down, and sideways. Doesn't lessen their fighting ability.

They're TWO SEPARATE STATS. Likability and skill. They're as far divided as speed, power, and dick size. They. Aren't. Connected. You're just looking for a stupid reason to write my arguments off, and congratufuckinglations, you found one. The stupidest you could. "I don't care if you've been analyzing fighting styles for like six years and have gotten so good that you can discern a good outline of a complete stranger's personality from how they fight, you're wrong T____T"
At least come out and say what you're really thinking: "I just can't be arsed to believe you."


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Supertails said:


> And I see that you *still* refuse to recognize good points just because Ref makes a joke.
> 
> You're really, really, really thick-headed, you know that?



He said he was leaving the thread 



Referee said:


> Except how much I like them has nothing to do with how well they can fight. There are lots of people that I HATED in elementary school who could kick my ass up, down, and sideways. Doesn't lessen their fighting ability.
> 
> They're TWO SEPARATE STATS. Likability and skill. They're as far divided as speed, power, and dick size. They. Aren't. Connected. You're just looking for a stupid reason to write my arguments off, and congratufuckinglations, you found one. The stupidest you could. "I don't care if you've been analyzing fighting styles for like six years and have gotten so good that you can discern a good outline of a complete stranger's personality from how they fight, you're wrong T____T"
> At least come out and say what you're really thinking: "I just can't be arsed to believe you."



Actually i've written off your arguements with facts, you're just bitter. Besides you said you were done with this thread.


----------



## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

So are you going to argue his point or not?


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 23, 2009)

Come on now, let's play nice kiddies.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 23, 2009)

I was, but OCD kicked in. I really don't like people pretending to know what I'm thinking and then getting it dead wrong. And guess what you did? =D If you're gonna try reading my mind, read it right.

I'm sorry if I don't see Sephiroth fighting on equal footing with a guy who can't be hit, seen, or blocked. To be fair, that's a fucking hard battle to fight. His stats are great, but not enough for this.


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Referee said:


> I was, but OCD kicked in. I really don't like people pretending to know what I'm thinking and then getting it dead wrong. And guess what you did? =D If you're gonna try reading my mind, read it right.
> 
> I'm sorry if I don't see Sephiroth fighting on equal footing with a guy who can't be hit, seen, or blocked. To be fair, that's a fucking hard battle to fight. His stats are great, but not enough for this.



Ok tell me what you believe the outcome of the battle will be please.


----------



## Supertails (Apr 23, 2009)

Did you not read his strategy on the other page?  The one he announced he was leaving in?

You know, *the one you keep ignoring*?

I'm still waiting for you to denounce that one.


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 23, 2009)

Supertails said:


> Did you not read his strategy on the other page?  The one he announced he was leaving in?
> 
> You know, *the one you keep ignoring*?
> 
> I'm still waiting for you to denounce that one.



What am i ignoring? I've accepted his arguement i'm waiting for him to tell me how he believes the battle will end. Why denounce a valid point?


----------



## Densoro (Apr 24, 2009)

I figure that when Link can just phase all his attacks through his enemy's defenses, crits are guaranteed. I figure that if he can't be hit, he'll never be finished off. I figure if he can't be seen, he can't be effectively avoided. Attack, Defense, and Evasion are thus nonfactors, so his stats are essentially reduced to 0. A level 0 can't win boss fights solo.


----------



## Supertails (Apr 24, 2009)

ChidoriCurrent said:


> What am i ignoring? I've accepted his arguement i'm waiting for him to tell me how he believes the battle will end. Why denounce a valid point?


Okay, sorry then.  A little jumpy of me.  XD


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 24, 2009)

Referee said:


> I figure that when Link can just phase all his attacks through his enemy's defenses, crits are guaranteed. I figure that if he can't be hit, he'll never be finished off. I figure if he can't be seen, he can't be effectively avoided. Attack, Defense, and Evasion are thus nonfactors, so his stats are essentially reduced to 0. A level 0 can't win boss fights solo.



Does the cape make Link's weapons intangible as well?


----------



## Densoro (Apr 24, 2009)

Selectively intangible. I saw one guy take on a giant turtle by standing somewhere in its stomach and chopping inside of it. He took no damage, the turtle took full. This may seem broken, but you have to remember, LttP had no infinite mana milk. It's only broken when you put the two together ^^


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 24, 2009)

Referee said:


> Selectively intangible. I saw one guy take on a giant turtle by standing somewhere in its stomach and chopping inside of it. He took no damage, the turtle took full. This may seem broken, but you have to remember, LttP had no infinite mana milk. It's only broken when you put the two together ^^



So then Sephiroth can't clash swords with Link? if so this battle goes in the favour of link


----------



## Densoro (Apr 24, 2009)

That's exactly it ^^ That's why I believed Link could win. You admit that it wasn't fanboyism now, yes? ^^; Just the ability to bypass the opponent's greatest strengths. Intangibility is neat like that.

Also, sorry for getting pissy with you ^^; Thought I'd gotten better with that since last time.


----------



## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 24, 2009)

Referee said:


> That's exactly it ^^ That's why I believed Link could win. You admit that it wasn't fanboyism now, yes? ^^; Just the ability to bypass the opponent's greatest strengths. Intangibility is neat like that.
> 
> Also, sorry for getting pissy with you ^^; Thought I'd gotten better with that since last time.



Nah, my aplogies. I usually getting heated up in debates and kinda start going all out . If Sephiroth was allowed Lifestream hax, it would be a stalemate, but in Link's favour most likely.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Apr 24, 2009)

CIS on in the battledome, Link waves his sword, Sephiroth rips his face off.


----------



## Utopia Realm (Apr 24, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> CIS on in the battledome, Link waves his sword, Sephiroth rips his face off.



I thought it CIS was off unless stated in the OP.


----------



## Raigen (Apr 24, 2009)

Link never really stood a chance.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkDx1dOvy7k[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## skiboydoggy (Apr 24, 2009)

cheapoman said:


> I thought it CIS was off unless stated in the OP.


CIS on, PIS off.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 24, 2009)

cheapoman said:


> I thought it CIS was off unless stated in the OP.



It is off. Characters in the OBD are assumed to be bloodlusted unless stated otherwise.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Apr 24, 2009)

Darth Nihilus said:


> It is off. Characters in the OBD are assumed to be bloodlusted unless stated otherwise.


Except CIS is on. Read the assumptions thread again.



> *Character Induced Stupidity:*
> It should be on, but the characters should be out to win.
> 
> CIS refers to a character's tendencies in battle. Basically, just because a character can go all out from the start and use their most powerful abilities, or use tactics that would ensure victory, they most likely won't, if CIS is in effect.
> ...


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 24, 2009)

And then I read this. 



> Basically, it's when even though a character can use the full extent of their power, or take advantages of an opponents mistakes, they instead either consciously choose to squander the opportunity, or for reasons unknown to readers, just don't go all out.
> 
> *For OBD purposes, threads where "CIS = on" indicate that even though the characters involved might be able to use their full abilities, they're still bound by what their tendencies are in battle.*


----------



## The World (Apr 24, 2009)

Which is what he said.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Apr 24, 2009)

Erm... CIS off means Kenpachi starts every fight by taking off his eyepatch and using kendo, bloodlust means he'll beat up anyone in front of him. Different things.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 24, 2009)

To be honest, I read the thread, it said that it should be on, and then in another thread, it was stated that it bloodlust should be on, unless stated otherwise, so it seems that we have a problem here.


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 24, 2009)

Bloodlust + CIS means that they will fight the enemy with whatever they have but only in the manner they would normally fight.

Bloodlust Luffy with CIS vs Nami. GG n Pistol!
Bloodlust Luffy without CIS vs Nami. Gear Second. Geard 3rd. GG n Gigant Jet Shell!


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## God (Apr 24, 2009)

Sephiroth can pretty much win by using that Meteor again. There's also Bahamut Fury and Bizarro/Safer Sephiroth. Link's power is pretty near Sephiroth's but add in his mastery with a sword and flight, Sephiroth takes this.


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## Densoro (Apr 24, 2009)

If CIS is on, then Sephiroth spends so much time posing that he's not a threat anyway. When Link blocks one of his intentionally simply-read attacks and feels how much power is behind them, he'll do what he normally does; use the best item for the job. Which is the Cape/Romani combo outlined on previous pages.


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## The World (Apr 24, 2009)

Referee said:


> If CIS is on, then Sephiroth spends so much time posing that he's not a threat anyway. When Link blocks one of his intentionally simply-read attacks and feels how much power is behind them, he'll do what he normally does; use the best item for the job. Which is the Cape/Romani combo outlined on previous pages.


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## Densoro (Apr 24, 2009)

Okay, glad to hear you think I'm wrong. Now explain how; without that, your post's...really kinda useless. Calling people idiots doesn't get you anywhere.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 25, 2009)

Referee said:


> If CIS is on, then Sephiroth spends so much time posing that he's not a threat anyway. When Link blocks one of his intentionally simply-read attacks and feels how much power is behind them, he'll do what he normally does; use the best item for the job. Which is the Cape/Romani combo outlined on previous pages.



Sephiroth only poses when he's fighting Cloud, he's plain brutal against everyone else. Link dies, get over it.


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## Densoro (Apr 25, 2009)

Sora isn't Cloud and Sephy posed as much as ever against him. He's a stupid lagbucket whose only saving grace is high stats. But those aren't an issue when Link can become selectively infreakingtangible in an instant.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 25, 2009)

Referee said:


> Sora isn't Cloud and Sephy posed as much as ever against him. He's a stupid lagbucket whose only saving grace is high stats. But those aren't an issue when Link can become selectively infreakingtangible in an instant.


Do you see me caring about KH Sephiroth? Sephiroth's fights in Crisis Core and all his non-Cloud battles in FFVII were over in an instant. Not to mention, even if Sephiroth does pose, Link pokes him and he responds lethally.


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## Densoro (Apr 25, 2009)

An instant? You mean like the instant that activating the Magic Cape takes?
Yay for responding lethally to somebody who, again, is IN. TAN. GI. BLE. Magic Cape makes Link just that, plus invisible. So Sephiroth can't see him, and even if he could, he couldn't attack him or block attacks delivered by him.


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## The World (Apr 25, 2009)

So Sephiroth flies so high in the air Link can't see him and waits for Link to die while he merges with the Lifestream, THE END.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 25, 2009)

Referee said:


> An instant? You mean like the instant that activating the Magic Cape takes?
> Yay for responding lethally to somebody who, again, is IN. TAN. GI. BLE. Magic Cape makes Link just that, plus invisible. So Sephiroth can't see him, and even if he could, he couldn't attack him or block attacks delivered by him.


Did you purposely ignore CIS on again?


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## Densoro (Apr 25, 2009)

And he does that before Link timefreezes his ass with the Phantom Hourglass, eh? Dyamn.

EDIT: I didn't ignore jack. Link uses the best item for the job. That's the whole POINT of Link. And the best item in this case is the cape, just like the best item against Molgera was the Hookshot.


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## The World (Apr 25, 2009)

Sephiroth can use slow/stop as well. Or a hourglass which casts slow on all enemies even Epona(sorry horsie). Sephiroth wins in all scenarios.


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## Densoro (Apr 25, 2009)

Dunno what the bronze hourglass is, but I've never seen Sephy learn/cast Stop.

Also, just thought of something. Wouldn't Sephy flying out of visible range as you planned count as a BFR? =3


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 25, 2009)

Referee said:


> And he does that before Link timefreezes his ass with the Phantom Hourglass, eh? Dyamn.
> 
> EDIT: I didn't ignore jack. Link uses the best item for the job. That's the whole POINT of Link. And the best item in this case is the cape, just like the best item against Molgera was the Hookshot.


And he looks at Sephiroth and instantly decides to use the Magic Cape why? Linkwank is hilarious. Sephiroth looks at Link and he gets telekinetically crushed.


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## Densoro (Apr 25, 2009)

It's not from looking at Sephiroth, it's from blocking one of his ludicrously laggyshit slash attacks and feeling how much power is behind them -_- Follow along with your finger if you have to.

Also, Seph's telekinetic since when? o_O

EDIT: Whatever, screw this. Normal people need sleep.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 25, 2009)

Referee said:


> It's not from looking at Sephiroth, it's from blocking one of his ludicrously laggyshit slash attacks and feeling how much power is behind them -_- Follow along with your finger if you have to.



Or Sephiroth Bladebeams Link into half in his first blow? Go watch Advent Children or some Crisis Core cutscenes. Laggyshit my ass.



> Also, Seph's telekinetic since when? o_O



Since always?


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## Densoro (Apr 25, 2009)

I've seen both, and I can usually follow his attacks if I concentrate. Link > me, so he should be able to see them even easier. And once he sees how dangerous Sephy's attacks are, he'll know what he needs to do.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 25, 2009)

Referee said:


> I've seen both, and I can usually follow his attacks if I concentrate. Link > me, so he should be able to see them even easier. And once he sees how dangerous Sephy's attacks are, he'll know what he needs to do.


And I guess because I can see Luffy fighting in Gear 2 when I watch the anime, he's massively subsonic, amirite? 
Besides, Link is going to get bisected by the first bladebeam.


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## Densoro (Apr 25, 2009)

Show me where it says Sephy's supposed to be supersonic. Show me a time when he's caused a right and proper shockwave with his movements, or show me some Word of God giving a speed readout. Because as is, all of this stuff about Square's characters being FTL and crap seems like the biggest wank of all.
Also, if you're about to argue that the camera's slowed down for mortal viewing, then explain why the voices, which match their speaking animations perfectly, aren't also massively slowed down to the point where they sound like whales.

Pretty sure beams are at a disadvantage vs Mirror Shield ^^; That first bladebeam would be simple to survive.


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## Ulti (Apr 25, 2009)

Links pretty strong, if Fagiroth got hit by him it would be game over.

Wasn't Sephiroth speedblitzing Zach & Cloud? Who are both bullet timers.

Don't know who wins, don't know much bout Sephiroth.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 25, 2009)

Cloud and Zach are bullet timers. Sephiroth is superior in every way to both of them. He rips Link apart.


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## Ulti (Apr 25, 2009)

As the OP stated he had materia Sephiroth does win. But Link is immensely strong with the gauntlets and all so 1 or 2 hits would fuck Sephiroth up. Sephiroth has speed though, which gives him victory here.


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## Densoro (Apr 25, 2009)

You absolutely 100% sure that it's bullet timing and not muzzle timing? And besides, when the bullets in that verse can be stopped by a pair of sunglasses, I have to think they're a great deal weaker than the ones we've got here. Any proper rifle would've broken Cloud's glasses AND his head.


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## Ulti (Apr 25, 2009)

Haven't watched Advent Children, but I've been shown videos and I'm pretty sure their bullet timing. 

Yeah, they are weak. Doesn't matter though, they were still bullet timing.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqC4L3MYqa4&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

Heres the fight where he was bullet timing.


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 25, 2009)

Speed is power. Lack of power suggests lack of speed.


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## Ulti (Apr 25, 2009)

Blehh, yeah. Thats true.

But Zack was still bullet timing and Fagiroth still blitzed him.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 25, 2009)

Erm... Cloud is a bit too tough to be downed by bullets, and god knows what his sunglasses are made of, but denying bullet speed to bullets because they don't break sunglasses is just inane.


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## Densoro (Apr 25, 2009)

So are you saying that they bother to make SUNGLASSES out of adamantium or something? I find that hard to believe. We don't make T-shirts out of kevlar.
The point about the physics is damn well valid. I could break a normal pair of sunglasses by chucking a nerf ball at them. Does that mean that I can explode a person's head using a baseball? Doubtful.

And if Cloud's face is tougher than a concrete wall, then swords wouldn't do jack to him.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 26, 2009)

Referee said:


> So are you saying that they bother to make SUNGLASSES out of adamantium or something? I find that hard to believe. We don't make T-shirts out of kevlar.
> The point about the physics is damn well valid. I could break a normal pair of sunglasses by chucking a nerf ball at them. Does that mean that I can explode a person's head using a baseball? Doubtful.



Why not? They make bracelets out of that stuff in FFVII. And hairpins, I might add. The point on physics is retarded because you're saying a bullet is not a bullet.



> And if Cloud's face is tougher than a concrete wall, then swords wouldn't do jack to him.



I prod you with a sword. I swing an iron bar at you. Which hurts more? Don't be stupid. The swords in this case are being swung by people who can manhandle motorbikes with their feet, cause shockwaves and beams with those same sword slashes, and a whole list of other superhuman feats.


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## Densoro (Apr 26, 2009)

Okay, so they gave a _delivery boy_ superglasses. Fine, I'll accept that FF7verse just isn't very economic *shrug* But I'm not saying that those weren't bullets, I'm saying that they weren't moving as fast as real ones. They don't have as much power, so they obviously don't have as much speed. The bullets are bullets, but they're being fired from sub-par guns.

I admit that these guys are tougher than your average Joe (that's obvious), but swords canonically doing MORE damage than guns should prove that the guns in the series are lame. Which is all I'm trying to prove; the bullets are fired slower in that verse, making bullet timing a less amazing feat. The one exception to this was the sniper rifle that killed Zack. That one actually hit like a gun, showing that a proper one can bust through a Soldier with no problem. And you'll notice, he couldn't time that one.


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## Narcissus (Apr 26, 2009)

Cloud and Zack are bullet timers.  Stop trying to downplay the feats.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 26, 2009)

Referee said:


> Okay, so they gave a _delivery boy_ superglasses. Fine, I'll accept that FF7verse just isn't very economic *shrug* But I'm not saying that those weren't bullets, I'm saying that they weren't moving as fast as real ones. They don't have as much power, so they obviously don't have as much speed. The bullets are bullets, but they're being fired from sub-par guns.



The delivery boy delivers stuff using the fucking Fenrir. You know, the bike with the First Tsurugi stuck in it? His boss is also Tifa. Hell, those glasses could be leftover equipment from the game chronology for all we know.
And hooray at you randomly downplaying feats again. The guns are obviously as good as or superior to the guns in our universe. Which is why they can do things like damage summons and Weapons.



> I admit that these guys are tougher than your average Joe (that's obvious), but swords canonically doing MORE damage than guns should prove that the guns in the series are lame. Which is all I'm trying to prove; the bullets are fired slower in that verse, making bullet timing a less amazing feat. The one exception to this was the sniper rifle that killed Zack. That one actually hit like a gun, showing that a proper one can bust through a Soldier with no problem. And you'll notice, he couldn't time that one.



Or that the swordsmen are overpowered? I shoot a gun. Hell, I shoot a rocket launcher. The Hulk swings a sword. Let's take a guess which one does more damage. And anyway, Zack's death was retconned in Crisis Core. He fought from dusk to dawn while facing down pretty much the entirety of Shin-Ra before dying.


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## Densoro (Apr 26, 2009)

They can damage summons, sure, but not very much. An ant can damage a person, but if you wanted to find an animal to kill them, you'd rather use a lion. Note the difference between Barret's machine gun and Cloud's sword. 
And for _fuck's sake_, would you stop implying that all this is random? Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean I pulled it out of my ass. Throughout the game, it's clear that guns can't kill people in one hit. Many swords can.

Tossing motorcycles =/= Hulk strength. I agree that the Hulk with a sword would own most any gunner, but these guys aren't the Hulk. They're strong, no doubt about it, but I find it very hard to believe that their level of strength can effectively close the gap between sword damage and REAL gun damage. Guns make crater exit wounds. Aerith didn't have any craters in her. Just one thin stab wound.

Sure, his sniping was retconned, but that just means that they took the one decent gun in FF7verse out of existence. If Zack just had to fight a bunch of Shin Ras using the BS guns I've been ranting at you about this whole time, then it's no wonder he beat them all.

Show me one time a gun's done damage to a normal human or a structure comparable to the damage a real one would do. If you can do that, then I'll admit that these people are timing and tanking real gunshots. If not, then I can't help but think they are the victim of ungodly amounts of PIS designed to give the medieval weapon users half a fighting chance.


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## Ulti (Apr 26, 2009)

Anyway back to point...

Does Link have any reaction speed feats that would allow him to not get blitzed by him?


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## Densoro (Apr 26, 2009)

What do you mean "back to point"? This _is_ the point. I don't believe that Sephiroth is a full and proper bullet timer for the reasons I've listed which I still haven't seen proof against. We can't know if Link has proper reaction feats until we determine Sephiroth's action feats beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Which at the moment means showing me one FF7verse gun that does realistic amounts of damage. Show me one scene from any of the games where an NPC's been taken down in one shot and I'll concede. Until then, I can't help but think FF7verse guns fire like Nerf guns, and bullet-timing against one of those is pitiful.


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 26, 2009)

Referee said:


> What do you mean "back to point"? This _is_ the point. I don't believe that Sephiroth is a full and proper bullet timer for the reasons I've listed which I still haven't seen proof against. We can't know if Link has proper reaction feats until we determine Sephiroth's action feats beyond a shadow of a doubt.
> 
> Which at the moment means showing me one FF7verse gun that does realistic amounts of damage. Show me one scene from any of the games where an NPC's been taken down in one shot and I'll concede. Until then, I can't help but think FF7verse guns fire like Nerf guns, and bullet-timing against one of those is pitiful.




It's a fucking RPG you twit, and a turn based one at that of course it's not going to have realistic battle system. If RPG's had that every monster would die in one hit.

How hard is it to understand it's game mechanics.


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## Densoro (Apr 26, 2009)

I'm talking about cutscenes, actually, but thanks for the assholerific response ^___^ I understand the difference between canon and gameplay mechanics really well. I'm asking for CANON proof that the guns are as powerful as ours. That's all. If they are, then it shouldn't be hard to find me some _motherfucking_ proof to shut me up. Because everybody's saying that CANONICALLY, the guns in FF7verse can headshot a random schmoe just as well as ours can. I'm asking for proof.


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## Tatl / Tael (Apr 27, 2009)

To me it comes down to this: Sephiroth lost to Cloud.

Does Link's magical arsenal make him >/= Cloud?


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 27, 2009)

Easily. 10char.


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## God (Apr 27, 2009)

lol @ haters calling Sephiroth's attacks laggyshit. The only reason it would even LOOK like that is cuz he doesnt fucking try. EVER. He didnt even need to get serious to aggravate Genesis. Cutting buildings up with a few slashes?

Bladebeams will cut Link up.


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## Narcissus (Apr 27, 2009)

Basically, it comes down to what Cubey said.  With everything Sephiroth has done, he was never even trying.  He would speedblitz the hell out of Link before he even does anything.


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## Superrazien (Apr 27, 2009)

Link needs a proper treatment from Nintendo with epic cut scenes and such. Until then I say Seph wins.


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## Densoro (Apr 27, 2009)

Yay at people still not giving me the proof that I've been asking for -___- Fine. If you insist on dodging my question...

In any case, Link's dodged lasers before. Beamos, anybody? By the logic that you guys have put to Sora and the Jedi, that makes him a lightspeeder =X


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## Tatl / Tael (Apr 27, 2009)

Did you forget that the OP says Link can use everything he has?

Did you forget that Link got the Triforce at the end of A Link to the Past?

Did you forget the Triforce grants wishes?


For all the Supernovas, Meteors, and building slicing attacks, Seph couldn't beat Cloud. Even if you want to ignore the Triforce, Link can just use the Harp of Ages to abort Sephiroth before he's even born. He can use the Magic Cape to become intangible. The Cane of Byrna and Nayru's Love give him invincibility, plus Romani Milk to give him infinite magic. Or he could just pile on all the stat-boosting armor, equipment and enchantments, and become invulnerable. Add on Pegasus Boots, and Pegasus Seeds for superspeed. The golden gauntlets from OoT give him the power to move mountains it says. 

The problem with this battle is that the OP gave Link everything he has, probably not knowing about the Triforce's reality warping powers. Could Sephiroth beat A Link? Sure. But not the complete totality of the Hero of Hyrule's magical arsenal.

I'm getting out of this discussion before it turns into a massive Sephiroth wank. People like to ignore that Seph can be beaten by bashing him with the buster sword enough times, instead, all they remember is Supernova.


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## tituspullo (Apr 28, 2009)

Assumptions are a bit hazy OP.  Does seph get autophoenix + endless supply of phenixdowns?  Does link have limited inventory space/bottles?  I mean both these guys have mechanics to autorez indefinitely so...


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 28, 2009)

I don't recall any auto-item materia. 

Also, Sephy should have the materia  he's been shown with, not all the materia in the entire game.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 28, 2009)

How strong would a spell like Quake be, anyway.


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 28, 2009)

Link has hover-boots, he's immune to Quake.


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## The World (Apr 28, 2009)

Tatl / Tael said:


> Did you forget that the OP says Link can use everything he has?
> 
> Did you forget that Link got the Triforce at the end of A Link to the Past?
> 
> ...



Sephiroth couldn't beat Cloud because 1, Cloud is powerful and 2 It's called PIS and CIS.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 28, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> Sephiroth couldn't beat Cloud because 1, Cloud is powerful and 2 It's called PIS and CIS.


Precisely. It has been stated many times that Sephiroth would completely destroy Cloud with one arm behind his back and his eyes closed if he so much as wanted to. He was just trying to torment Cloud by dominating him in sword fights, which are Cloud's forte, and Sephiroth won every time until Cloud busted out Omnislash from left field.


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## Raigen (Apr 28, 2009)

And btw, these guys are above bullet-time. That was proven in Advent Children and Last Order. Cloud was deflecting multiple gunfire with his sword and even Vincent was shown evading it. Not to mention that Loz had near teleport-speed and Cloud stomped his ass into the ground after he stopped being a whiny little emo bitch.

In Last Order, Zack was casually deflecting and evading machine gun fire with the Buster Sword, one handed. Two regular Soldiers couldn't even pull the thing from the ground it was so heavy, and Zack pulled it out effortlessly.


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## tgre (Apr 28, 2009)

Raigen said:


> And btw, these guys are above bullet-time. That was proven in Advent Children and Last Order. Cloud was deflecting multiple gunfire with his sword and even Vincent was shown evading it. Not to mention that Loz had near teleport-speed and Cloud stomped his ass into the ground after he stopped being a whiny little emo bitch.
> 
> In Last Order, Zack was casually deflecting and evading machine gun fire with the Buster Sword, one handed. Two regular Soldiers couldn't even pull the thing from the ground it was so heavy, and Zack pulled it out effortlessly.



dodging bullets and blocking them with a massive sword are entirely different. Don't start labeling them as bullet timers because of that.

fact of the matter is, link ex-quips items faster than Sephiroth can land a strike. Items go on and off Link almost instantaneously, all of Sephiroth's moves may take a split second to perform... BUT ITS STILL A SPLIT SECOND... it's still slower than Link's item ex-quip.

Sephiroth can really only tank in speed and reading through this whole thread (oh yes I have), the arguments for his speed and tank image are not that strong.

Whereas Link has an immense arrays of items and strategies to tackle Sephiroth with a higher efficiency than Sephiroth against Link.

1) Magic Cape, invisitangible... gg Sephiroth.
2) Gold Armour (1000 rupees) and/or Nayru's love and then a song through his Ocarina (probably slowing down time) - this would probably be used if Seph wanted to blitz him.
3) If Seph wanted to start a summon, which takes a crapload of time... then Link's got all the time in the world and he can do whatever he wants.
4) If he really wanted to take the piss out of Sephiroth, just shoot him in the eyes with a light arrow or two. Blind the fucker like a bitch for atleast a few seconds.


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## Seijun Togiretogire (Apr 28, 2009)

Zack was freaking CARTWHEELING to avoid multiple machine-guns firing from nearly all directions and he did it with a smile on his face.

Since Sephy's getting all the materia in the game, Final Attack+Phoenix assures that he will. Not. F'ing. Die.

W-Summon+KotR+Mime = Overkill.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 28, 2009)

Seijun Togiretogire said:


> Zack was freaking CARTWHEELING to avoid multiple machine-guns firing from nearly all directions and he did it with a smile on his face.
> 
> Since Sephy's getting all the materia in the game, Final Attack+Phoenix assures that he will. Not. F'ing. Die.
> 
> W-Summon+KotR+Mime = Overkill.


Or Sephiroth guts him like he did Aerith.


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## tgre (Apr 28, 2009)

Seijun Togiretogire said:


> Zack was freaking CARTWHEELING to avoid multiple machine-guns firing from nearly all directions and he did it with a smile on his face.
> 
> Since Sephy's getting all the materia in the game, Final Attack+Phoenix assures that he will. Not. F'ing. Die.
> 
> W-Summon+KotR+Mime = Overkill.



which does not change the fact of the matter that whatever Sephiroth wants to do, Link will be able to do it quicker (with time-aids of course).

The first move in this battle is going to be obviously Link's. And if he ex-quips nayru's love, gold armour or magic cape... which he probably will if Sephiroth tries to blitz, then Link just has to ocarina it out for the next 3 or 4 seconds and blammo. Sephiroth goes bye bye.

Not to mention, Link has his masks from MM. ex-quipping masks IS instantaneous.

Fierce Deity and Giant mask would help.

Especially if the Link we're using is TP Link. Fierce Deity on him would be monstrous.

Also...

Link has dekunuts.

billions of them.

Sephiroth will be blinking for a good 3 minutes going: I CANT SEE ANYTHING T_T before receiving a sword to the face.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 28, 2009)

Or Sephiroth guts him before he can do anything like that because A) Sephiroth is faster and B) CIS is on.


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## tgre (Apr 28, 2009)

Sephiroth is fast. But he's not a teleporter.

Stop kidding yourself.

By the time he gets to Link, Link would have already ex-quipped into his Magic Cape or his Golden Armour.


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## Seijun Togiretogire (Apr 28, 2009)

tGre teh Disleksik said:


> Sephiroth is fast. But he's not a teleporter.



Actually, he is.

OP states both fighters can use everything they have shown.

Sephiroth teleports in Kingdom Hearts.


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## tgre (Apr 28, 2009)

If that's the case, Link uses Triforce to wish his death.


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## Seijun Togiretogire (Apr 28, 2009)

And then Sephiroth uses Final Attack+Revive/Phoenix to come back.

Rinse and repeat.


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## tgre (Apr 28, 2009)

Umm, how can he use his final attack when death takes him abruptly?

And even if he happens to perform the final attack first, as soon as he is revived, he'll die again from another wish to the triforce... instantaneously.

And you can't phoenix yourself, you need a team mate.

GG.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 28, 2009)

Or CIS is on and Sephiroth guts Link before Link fires a neuron.


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## tgre (Apr 28, 2009)

That was the most useless comment in this thread so far.

Well done.


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## Seijun Togiretogire (Apr 28, 2009)

tGre teh Disleksik said:


> Umm, how can he use his final attack when death takes him abruptly?
> 
> And even if he happens to perform the final attack first, as soon as he is revived, he'll die again from another wish to the triforce... instantaneously.
> 
> ...



Final Attack automatically uses the spell linked to it, regardless of the reason for death.

And you CAN phoenix yourself if your HP is reduced to zero in FFVII; Phoenix revives any characters who are KO'd. The casting is done when the character's status is changed to "KO," and they are revived.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 28, 2009)

tGre teh Disleksik said:


> That was the most useless comment in this thread so far.
> 
> Well done.


So says the guy that can't even comprehend CIS.


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## Xelloss (Apr 28, 2009)

Triforce of power make Link immortal

Final Attack + Phoenix have a counter, you can run out of mana, a friend learn it the hard was agains Emerald weapon, she drain him of mana and then kill him, no mp to cast Final Attack + Phoenix.

Battlefield removals have work agains Phoenix even in all ff.


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## Sephiroth (Apr 28, 2009)

Sephiroth wins with no effort. 

Meh supernova if it comes to it.

Bosses including Sephiroth in FF are also immune Poison, Silence, Stun, Stop, Gravity, and Death magic of all forms.


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 28, 2009)

Seijun Togiretogire said:


> And then Sephiroth uses Final Attack+Revive/Phoenix to come back.
> 
> Rinse and repeat.



How is Sephiroth going to stop an omnipotent power? Honestly?


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 28, 2009)

Darth Nihilus said:


> How is Sephiroth going to stop an omnipotent power? Honestly?


Link not using it before getting gutted?


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 28, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> Link not using it before getting gutted?



And he can stop it as soon as it's activated?


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## Xelloss (Apr 28, 2009)

you as using a Pis, link have always abuse all his equipment to get the job done.

Plus fairies give autolife.


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## Schneider (Apr 28, 2009)

Since when is Triforce omnipotent?


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 28, 2009)

Schneider said:


> Since when is Triforce omnipotent?


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## Narcissus (Apr 28, 2009)

Cloud defeating Sephiroth is the stupidest  logic I've heard in this thread thus far.  He clearly had an ample number of chances where he could have killed Cloud but did not, and if you missed these, you most likely didn't even watch AC.  He wanted to make him suffer.

And Sephiroth wank?  Sephiroth is one of the most hated characters in the OBD.  Please.

I haven't seen a thing to convince me that Sephiroth will not just blitz Link and put a sword through him, or hit him with a lightning bolt, or through energy blades off his sword, burn him to death, use a summon, etc.


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## God (Apr 28, 2009)

Cloud beating Sephiroth? Seriously? THATS the argument against him? 

Wasnt Sephiroth able to stop a bullet-like Cloud in mid-air with his bare hands in Advent Children? I mean seriously, Sephiroth was able to cut multiple-paned steeled wallsw/o being near them. Bizarro and Safer Sephiroth will definitely destroy Link.


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## Seijun Togiretogire (Apr 28, 2009)

Xelloss said:


> Triforce of power make Link immortal
> 
> Final Attack + Phoenix have a counter, you can run out of mana, a friend learn it the hard was agains Emerald weapon, she drain him of mana and then kill him, no mp to cast Final Attack + Phoenix.
> 
> Battlefield removals have work agains Phoenix even in all ff.



Sephiroth's MP never decreases in the Niblheim flashback. He has infinite MP.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 28, 2009)

Was this worth 14 pages? Really? My god, someone count the fallacies in this thread...


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> Or Sephiroth guts him before he can do anything like that because A) *Sephiroth is faster* and B) CIS is on.



Except you ignored my point about Link lasertiming some Beamos. If dodging lasers makes Sora and Obi Wan lightspeeders, it works for Link, too. So now Link's the one killing people before neurons fire ^____^

EDIT: Also, what was skiboy saying about Sephiroth instantly attacking everybody except Cloud?


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

You laugh, but do you take people seriously when they say that Sora's a lightspeeder? Because this is the same thing. Laser-dodging.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 28, 2009)

What are beamos and what proof is there that they are lightspeed?


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 28, 2009)

Referee, show us one example of Link standing still, and then moving *and *dodging a Beamos' laser after it is fired.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 28, 2009)

Yeah, aimdodging is a bitch. Ask action heroes.


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 28, 2009)

Link

These are Beamos, and Link to my knowledge generally just blocks them.


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

Charcan said:


> What are beamos and what proof is there that they are lightspeed?



They fire lasers. Real lasers, not those crappy glowing bricks that Xemnas spammed. And I can't find a vid of it, it's just something that I've done in-game.

Also, why is it that Link dodging anything automatically has to be aimdodging, but a Square character absolutely MUST!!!!!!!!!1111 be timing the projectile itself? Why is there absolutely no possibility that they're aimdodging? =/


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 28, 2009)

Referee said:


> They fire lasers. Real lasers, not those crappy glowing bricks that Xemnas spammed. And I can't find a vid of it, it's just something that I've done in-game.



I remember the claim of FTL Sora being disputed here in the dome, but I don't especially care, he's not here. Gameplay mechanics? Those are unpopular here.



> Also, why is it that Link dodging anything automatically has to be aimdodging, but a Square character absolutely MUST!!!!!!!!!1111 be timing the projectile itself? Why is there absolutely no possibility that they're aimdodging? =/



Just asking for some proof.

Aimdodging? Cloud deflected individual bullets with individual sword swings without moving from where he was standing, sometimes while minding a guy with superspeed, was matched against someone who also deflected bullets with a thin double sword, and Sephiroth is faster than him. And that's without knowing what Zack did. Sephiroth's speed is well established.


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## Narcissus (Apr 28, 2009)

Sora is no lightspeeder, but he is also much, much faster than Link, as was shown in that overly-long thread you made.  Your Link wank is just tiresome.

Link still gets sliced to pieces.


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

And there's no chance that, as Cloud slashed those bullets away, he was at least taking the glance necessary to read the aim of each individual shot? He absofreakinglutely must have seen the individual rounds in mid-air?

Also, I only brought up Sora because so many of the people wanking Sephy raw were on Sora's bandwagon claiming that he was a lightspeeder for dodging shiny red bricks. Figured I'd twist that against them. And you realize that Link dodging a laser as a gameplay mechanic means that he can do even better, right? Because his movements are _always_ nerfed in gameplay. Cutscenes are where it's at.


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 28, 2009)

I really wouldn't consider dodging a Beamos' attack all that great of a feat, they're attack takes time to charge, and it's actually kinda slow moving, a retarded chimp could probably dodge it if he wanted to.


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

Kay, but I waited around for it to actually fire before I dodged it. Just to see if Link was fast enough, and he was =3


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 28, 2009)

Referee said:


> Kay, but I waited around for it to actually fire before I dodged it. Just to see if Link was fast enough, and he was =3



Precisslley it has a charge period, and like I said it's actually easy to dodge.


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

...You're not getting it. I walked up to a Beamos. It began charging. I stood still. It finished charging. It fired as I dodged it.


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 28, 2009)

Link is using the Mirror Shield. While Sephiroth is busy admiring his lucious locks and bishounen good looks in Link's shield, Link clones himself with the Four Sword, sneaks up to Sephiroth and turns Sephiroth into Sephina, if you know what I mean.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 28, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> Link still gets sliced to pieces.



Seems like that.



Referee said:


> And there's no chance that, as Cloud slashed those bullets away, he was at least taking the glance necessary to read the aim of each individual shot? He absofreakinglutely must have seen the individual rounds in mid-air?



Why not? Like other established bullet-timers, he is minding the shooter with his eyes, can move his body faster than the bullets, with enough precision to hit them off as they are in range of his weapon (he does this even with weapons of different size), and neither him nor the other guy are explained to be, say, like Longshot to do that without speed and awareness.

Stop denying their speed, there's no wanking in there.



> Cutscenes are where it's at.



Post some.


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 28, 2009)

Referee said:


> You laugh, but do you take people seriously when they say that Sora's a lightspeeder? Because this is the same thing. Laser-dodging.



          .

There are lasers that move at the speed of light and faster, but this in no way shows that Sora and Link are around that range in reaction timing, unless you have proof of this.


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

Narcissus needs to stop pretending that the battle ends just because he says so. Anyway.

I just figure people are far too liberal with the title of bullet-timer. Unless it's explicitly shown that they have perceived the bullet or we get a speedometer readout on the character sheet, then they have just as much chance of aimdodging as Link does. They may be 'established bullet timers,' but I can't help but think that at least some of them were 'established' under false pretenses. Like all the Jedi and Sith =D Those glowing bricks obviously are lasers in name only.

You honestly need me to go out and find some cutscenes where Link kicks more ass than usual? I thought it was self-evident, but apparently not...For starters, there's the time he did a Parry Attack and jumped like a hundred feet in the air before stabbing Ganondorf in the face. That alone would take speed, because speed translates into momentum, and before, he could barely get the momentum to jump eight feet high.


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 28, 2009)

One would think that lasers would have a constant speed, being made of light. 

Live and learn.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 28, 2009)

Link never jumped a hundred feet in the air.


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

Play Wind Waker, beat Ganondorf, then come back and say that =D


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 28, 2009)

I've beaten it before. Ganondorf isn't 100 feet tall. 

Not once has link leaped 100 feet in the air.


And even IF he has, show me.


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 28, 2009)

Episode 86: Professor Layton and the Serious Warning

2:12. Assuming Ganon is six foot(-ish), I'd guess that Link jumped around 12+ feet.


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

As I remember it, Link leapt a good bit above Ganondorf's head and came falling down on him. Maybe my memory's bad, but I swear there were at least two body lengths between them at the apex of his jump.
EDIT: *click*


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 28, 2009)

Since you have not proven your claim, concession accepted.


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

I didn't concede jack, and upon watching Ono's link, there were indeed a few body lengths between Ganondorf's head and Link's feet. Not enough for 100 feet, I admit (I misremembered the angle that scene was shot at), but still way more than his typical Parry Attack.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 28, 2009)

Not having given proof when I asked and then later admitting it wasn't 100 feet is conceding.


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

I just altered the statement, but playing semantics is dumb XD Point is, Link had higher speed in the cutscene than he did during gameplay. Yay. Now I answered that one dude's request to prove that. Moving on.

EDIT: Fun fact I just realized. In AC, we can easily follow the motion of the swords on-screen with our eyes, but we can't even hope to see the bullets. Therefore, the strikes are not even as fast as shots, because if they were they'd be invisible. The lack of bullet visibility also shows that the camera isn't slowed-down as so many people have claimed, thus confirming that Cloud and Sephiroth and the rest move at the speed we're perceiving ^___^


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 28, 2009)

Darth Nihilus said:


> .
> 
> There are lasers that move at the speed of light and faster, but this in no way shows that Sora and Link are around that range in reaction timing, unless you have proof of this.



I'd also like to see non-gameplay proof of him reacting to this supposed lightspeed beam after it was fired, since Cloud didn't aimdodge bullets and Sephiroth is faster than him.



Referee said:


> Point is, Link had higher speed in the cutscene than he did during gameplay. Yay. Now I answered that one dude's request to prove that. Moving on.



Still waiting to see proof of him explicitly timing a laser. Saying that he moves faster in a cutscene doesn't cut it.


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 28, 2009)

Darth Nihilus said:


> .
> 
> There are lasers that move at the speed of light and faster, but this in no way shows that Sora and Link are around that range in reaction timing, unless you have proof of this.



Huh, I see that I was not replied to with evidence of Link having lightspeed reflexes of faster, what a shame.


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

Referee said:


> EDIT: Fun fact I just realized. In AC, we can easily follow the motion of the swords on-screen with our eyes, but we can't even hope to see the bullets. Therefore, the strikes are not even as fast as shots, because if they were they'd be invisible. The lack of bullet visibility also shows that the camera isn't slowed-down as so many people have claimed, thus confirming that Cloud and Sephiroth and the rest move at the speed we're perceiving ^___^



Just 'cause it seems I edited that in as you guys were typing your posts. Don't want that getting missed.

How is Sephiroth faster than Cloud? Cloud finished him by attacking before he could react =/ If anything, Cloud's the fastest, and I'm still waiting for explicit proof that he didn't aimdodge. You say it so matter-of-factly, but you haven't proven that he actually perceived each bullet, only that he blocked by swinging in their general direction.
And you've gotta admit, it's not exactly easy for a bullet to get past that sword even if he swings in the complete wrong direction.

Nihilus, if you'll admit that Sora and the Jedi aren't lightspeeders, then that's all I ask =D I thought those ideas were BS, and my secondary goal was just to get them torn down.


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## AeroNin (Apr 28, 2009)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9PA1ML12f4&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 28, 2009)

I never claimed that Jedi were lightspeeders, nor that Sora was either


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

And I thank you for that. Gives me hope, after all the false lightspeeders I've seen everybody else wanking bloody x___X

Now then, onto more pressing matters. The fact that the bullets in Advent Children were impossible to see, but the sword-strokes were plain as day. That do anything to disrupt theories of Sephy stabbing people at the speed a nerve fires?


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 28, 2009)

Referee said:


> How is Sephiroth faster than Cloud? Cloud finished him by attacking before he could react =/



Because of a powerup tech without which Sephiroth toyed with him the entire match?



> If anything, Cloud's the fastest, and I'm still waiting for explicit proof that he didn't aimdodge.



You think he aimdodged? What about you prove that when it goes against all logic that a character that stays in the same spot and deflects multiple bullets with different sword swings while also matching a superspeedster would only have aimdodging. What definition of aimdodging are you using, seriously?



> You say it so matter-of-factly, but you haven't proven that he actually perceived each bullet, only that he blocked by swinging in their general direction.



That a character would deflect individual bullets from a shooter he's looking at by moving his arm faster than bullets with enough timing to hit each of them accurately as they enter the range of two different-sized swords, without missing, doesn't prove that he uses his reflexes? Really now. 



> And you've gotta admit, it's not exactly easy for a bullet to get past that sword even if he swings in the complete wrong direction.



Kadaj has a more or less normal sword which he used to also deflect bullets from a concealed weapon with individual, calculated slashes (didn't get hit, even dodged some on his own), and Cloud bested him, while deflecting bullets with a smaller sword too. No sword shield excuse.



Referee said:


> Now then, onto more pressing matters. The fact that the bullets in Advent Children were impossible to see, but the sword-strokes were plain as day. That do anything to disrupt theories of Sephy stabbing people at the speed a nerve fires?



No. It's just for the sake of the viewer. Suspension of disbelief and all that. They bullet-timed, and that's it. Next thing you know clothes won't be burned for the sake of decency.


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

Charcan said:


> You think he aimdodged? What about you prove that when it goes against all logic that a character that stays in the same spot and deflects multiple bullets with different sword swings while also matching a superspeedster would only have aimdodging. What definition of aimdodging are you using, seriously?



The definition that says that I watched what's his face aim and while Cloud's arm was moving and fire when it was already in position.



> That a character would deflect individual bullets from a shooter he's looking at by moving his arm faster than bullets with enough timing to hit each of them accurately as they enter the range of two different-sized swords, without missing, doesn't prove that he uses his reflexes? Really now.



Except his arm wasn't moving faster than bullets, as was previously mentioned. One of the major stumbling blocks I pointed out...right before you posted, actually. You guys say that they move faster than bullets, but I can't see the bullets in motion. The swords (and, by extension, the arms wielding them), however, are clear as day.



> Kadaj has a more or less normal sword which he used to also deflect bullets from a concealed weapon with individual, calculated slashes (didn't get hit, even dodged some on his own), and Cloud bested him, while deflecting bullets with a smaller sword too. No sword shield excuse.



Fair enough...though he does technically have more than the average amount of surface area with which to block *shrug* I'll concede, though. But his arm's still much slower to the eye than bullets are =P Further suggesting aimdodging. You can't bullettime when all your movements are slower than the bullets.


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## Narcissus (Apr 28, 2009)

Referee said:


> Narcissus needs to stop pretending that the battle ends just because he says so. Anyway.
> 
> I just figure people are far too liberal with the title of bullet-timer. Unless it's explicitly shown that they have perceived the bullet or we get a speedometer readout on the character sheet, then they have just as much chance of aimdodging as Link does. They may be 'established bullet timers,' but I can't help but think that at least some of them were 'established' under false pretenses. Like all the Jedi and Sith =D Those glowing bricks obviously are lasers in name only.
> 
> You honestly need me to go out and find some cutscenes where Link kicks more ass than usual? I thought it was self-evident, but apparently not...For starters, there's the time he did a Parry Attack and jumped like a hundred feet in the air before stabbing Ganondorf in the face. That alone would take speed, because speed translates into momentum, and before, he could barely get the momentum to jump eight feet high.




Having reached the level of perfection, unlike you, I'll act however I please, thank you very much (and especially when coming from someone who thinks Link can kill Lucy).

You can bitch and moan all you want, but not once in your rambling replies did you convince me of Link winning.  And the fact that you brought up Sora shows that you are still butthurt over Link not winning in that thread of your's.

Also, what you just posted amounts to nothing as Sephiroth was effortlessly jumping through the air and onto skyscrapers.  He is still much faster than Link and still slices him to bits, both because it's true and because I say so.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 28, 2009)

Referee said:


> The definition that says that I watched what's his face aim and while Cloud's arm was moving and fire when it was already in position.



Your definition is wrong, since he had to do calculated moves to deflect individual bullets fired at non-predictable intervals by a shooter not that close to himself while minding someone who had superspeed at close range.



> Except his arm wasn't moving faster than bullets, as was previously mentioned. One of the major stumbling blocks I pointed out...right before you posted, actually. You guys say that they move faster than bullets, but I can't see the bullets in motion. The swords (and, by extension, the arms wielding them), however, are clear as day.



Like I said as well, you're trying to argue against common fiction tropes now just to try to dismiss blatant feats.



> Fair enough...though he does technically have more than the average amount of surface area with which to block *shrug* I'll concede, though. But his arm's still much slower to the eye than bullets are =P Further suggesting aimdodging. You can't bullettime when all your movements are slower than the bullets.



It's a fight between characters faster than bullets who are comparable to each other in speed. You can't use a trope that serves the purpose of the audience being able to watch and enjoy the fight as excuse to dismiss their showings.


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> Having reached the level of perfection, unlike you, I'll act however I please, thank you very much (and especially when coming from someone who thinks Link can kill Lucy).



If you wank yourself any harder, your semen-encrusted hands will get bloody  And if Link had the time to don the Magic Cape, he could. Phase-killing FTW. But if she goes end-of-manga mode or doesn't give him the second he needs for that, then she wins.



> You can bitch and moan all you want, but not once in your rambling replies did you convince me of Link winning.  And the fact that you brought up Sora shows that you are still butthurt over Link not winning in that thread of your's.



Way to be wrong again. This 'perfect' record of yours is really shitting on itself, ain't it?  I brought him up because I saw a likeness between an OBD wank God (Sora) and an underdog (Link) and I wanted to pigeonhole them into admitting it. If you'd actually READ my fucking point (or had half a 'perfect' IQ), you'd understand that. I was trying to say "Hey, if dodging lasers made this guy lightspeed, so's this other guy! =D"



> Also, what you just posted amounts to nothing as Sephiroth was effortlessly jumping through the air and onto skyscrapers.  He is still much faster than Link and still slices him to bits, both because it's true and because I say so.



Because FF7verse totally pays attention to gravitational physics -_- Three strikes, good sir. In one post. Your perfection must be leaky today D= How's it feel being a low-tier mortal again?
The very fact that the party members were able to throw Cloud into the air without an equal and opposite reaction shows that jumping wasn't considered in any meaningfully accurate manner. It was just the general act of going up; everything else, they had creative license with.

As to him still being much faster and slicing Link into little bits...Congrats on ignoring ANOTHER fucking point of mine, but Sephy's pretty much guaranteed to swing at the speeds we're perceiving. Because, going back to a much earlier post, you can't see the bullets in AC, but you can see the sword strokes. Thus, the sword strokes are slower than the bullets. Thus, the movie was filmed in a realistic speed scale, so there's no more to Sephiroth's attacks than meets the eye.

And what meets the eye is a series of easily blocked attacks that are much too wide to be at all useful.

EDIT: They aren't faster than bullets, Charcan >___> The bullets move faster than we can see. The arm's don't. That means just what is says. I can watch their swords move, but I can't watch the bullets. The camera isn't slowed down for the audience, because if it was, the. Bullets. Would. Be. Visible. Too.


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## Supertails (Apr 28, 2009)

Narcissus:

All you really even said there was "ur rong cuz i sed".

I can do that too.

Link wins because you're stupid and I say he does.

But that aside, you still manage to ignore Ref's points and just put on a mental blindfold, pin the tail on whatever-the-hell-you-can, and claim you hit the ass's ass.

I can't tell whether to cry at the arrogance or applaud the sheer amount of it.


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## Stroev (Apr 28, 2009)

Here I thought it was reached the match would be a tie.


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

It was till assholes like Narcissus took over and began ignoring all my points =D


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## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 28, 2009)

*/thread to this pointless dispute.*

this thread digusts me. the op gave sephiroth EVERYTHING he has ever had. EVER! 
and then he went and gave him all materia. so let me /thread on you guys.

okay, lets say this is is god sephiroth. what is that? okay, first off he is dressed like a roman emperor. don't argue, I need him to be in some awesome clothes to finish this. lets say his robes are black (though I prefer white cloth) just to stay in character. oh and six black wings.
okay clothes are out of the way. 

the physical build is safer sephiroth's stats and immunities and ff7's wait atb. ACS's ability to hold materia inside of his body and dissidia's special attacks and ability to summon the masamune from no-where. also sephiroth can use every attack he ever had.


those chosen by the planet is playing in the world background music, and one winged angel _immenence_ is the battle theme.


okay, that is god sephiroth. he can use ALL materia so combine that with the ability to absorb materia in his body absorb ALL of it, and use his body as one long-ass combined slot. now here is the killer combo right here.

1st materia combo.
sneak attack+hades, pre-emptive.
this is hades exerpt 
*Spoiler*: __ 



"His attack, Black Cauldron, damages opponents and causes the Poison, Confusion, Sleep, Silence, Mini, Frog, Slow, and Paralysis status ailments." 


 
the thing is the status effect is 1OO% so this combo makes link turn around and sephiroth casts hades automatically, AND gets a free turn instantly.

the other materia combos. vital to the build.

*Spoiler*: __ 



2nd materia combo mega-all: master command, master summon, master magic.

3rd materia combo
magic counter: shield
invincibility!

4th materia combo
quadra magic x5: master magic, master summon
(magic and summons are used eight times in a row per casting)

5th materia combo
final attack: phoenix
instant full revive.

6th materia combo 
added effectdin, counter command:added cut. + added effect:contain
each attack has death,confusion,petrify and stop as an attribute (20%) 
sephiroth can counter attack 4 times in a row.

7th materia combo
hp absorb/mp absorb: all master materia.
for all damage sephiroth does he gains 10% health and 1% magic points.

8th materia combo
mp turbo:knights of the round
it is empowered by 50%




with all of that, sephiroth begins the fight using hades. during the turns link is asleep and stuff, he uses octoslash. all eight attacks have a chance to give link death, confusion,petrify, and stop. after this link is awake but paralized and small and a frog. this means one damage. sephiroth has max stats so he dodges every attack and if link has the paranormal ability to get past that he does 1 damage and activates sephiroth's shield spell making him invulnerable.

now sephiroth uses quadra-magic+ hades to rack up 11x base power damage
and resets damage every time. since link is poisoned as well he only had ten rounds of fight in him.

now that link is "sleep" (by now he should be dead) sephiroth buffs himself by casting BIG GUARD. then he casts DESPELL to take away all temporary magic link may have on. then he casts regen, and then casts shield again.
finally he uses a megalixer to get all of his mp back.

lets be fair and say link magically wakes up now. he attacks sephiroth (Cause frog is a quasi-permanent status effect. all frogs do is attack) this activates counter command and sephiroth attacks four times in a row. keep in mind his attacks have death,stop,petrify,and confusion.

so lets be nice and end it here. he should be out of hp anyway.


I'll give link MAX stats across the board in return for his hearts. luckilly I did not capitalize on the fact that safer sephiroth gets more than ten turns per turn at 255 speed

oh wait... that is invalid because link was paralized.... this means sephiroth only has the option to kill link... sephiroth wins... 

all of that was irrelivant too. after the first hades, sephiroth could use pale horse/heartless angel/attack and the battle is over.
or he could have used remove. 100% death, but he would not gain any exp...
oh yeah he doesn't need it

/thread.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 28, 2009)

Referee said:


> there's no more to Sephiroth's attacks than meets the eye.



You're really arguing format to downplay feats? 



> And what meets the eye is a series of easily blocked attacks that are much too wide to be at all useful.



What meets the eye is a character who can react to bullets and move his body faster than that in order to deal them calculated strikes while also dealing with a character with superfast movement speed along with the incoming bullets, also besting a character you can't claim aimdodged, being toyed with by Sephiroth....



> They aren't faster than bullets, Charcan >___>



Of course they are, in order to react to them and move their arms (and bodies, let's not forget Kadaj whom Cloud bested) faster in order to strike them. And since the starting distance isn't that big, Sephiroth is faster than these guys and has a really long range even without the long-distance slashes, he blitzes.


----------



## Supertails (Apr 28, 2009)

I don't see the point of it anyways when Link's magic cape is on in an instant.

Pretty sure an instant is faster than whatever those guys can bullet-time.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 28, 2009)

why are you all still arguing. I just destroyed this thread. link has no way to defend against hades. he WILL become a frog. he has no materia so he does not have the spell frog, or the items to cure it. he can only attack. not only that, sephiroth has more than ten turns to his one since I was kind enough to give him max stats.

this means there are TONS of ways for sephiroth to win. this also means the best way to win is easily done.

pale horse,heartless angel, attack ftw.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 28, 2009)

I'm just going against the ridiculous implication that a regular joe would be able to perceive Sephiroth swinging to stab him silly. Cloud sure wasn't one of those and he didn't do as good.


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## Narcissus (Apr 28, 2009)

Referee said:


> If you wank yourself any harder, your semen-encrusted hands will get bloody  And if Link had the time to don the Magic Cape, he could. Phase-killing FTW. But if she goes end-of-manga mode or doesn't give him the second he needs for that, then she wins.



He'd never have the second




> Way to be wrong again. This 'perfect' record of yours is really shitting on itself, ain't it?  I brought him up because I saw a likeness between an OBD wank God (Sora) and an underdog (Link) and I wanted to pigeonhole them into admitting it. If you'd actually READ my fucking point (or had half a 'perfect' IQ), you'd understand that. I was trying to say "Hey, if dodging lasers made this guy lightspeed, so's this other guy! =D"



And you utterly failed at trying to prove your point.



> Because FF7verse totally pays attention to gravitational physics -_- Three strikes, good sir. In one post. Your perfection must be leaky today D= How's it feel being a low-tier mortal again?
> The very fact that the party members were able to throw Cloud into the air without an equal and opposite reaction shows that jumping wasn't considered in any meaningfully accurate manner. It was just the general act of going up; everything else, they had creative license with.



So in other words, you are trying to disprove the things Sephiroth did using Cloud.  Cloud is far superior to Cloud in every single way, and you even see him jump in the fight.  Sephiroth did it, and all you're doing is trying to downplay it.



> As to him still being much faster and slicing Link into little bits...Congrats on ignoring ANOTHER fucking point of mine, but Sephy's pretty much guaranteed to swing at the speeds we're perceiving. Because, going back to a much earlier post, you can't see the bullets in AC, but you can see the sword strokes. Thus, the sword strokes are slower than the bullets. Thus, the movie was filmed in a realistic speed scale, so there's no more to Sephiroth's attacks than meets the eye.



Considering that Sephiroth has never fought seriously, there is far more to his attacks than what we see.  You have been given numerous accounts of bullet timing feats, and you still try to ignore them just to say Link winz!!!11



> And what meets the eye is a series of easily blocked attacks that are much too wide to be at all useful.



This just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. 



Supertails said:


> Narcissus:
> 
> All you really even said there was "ur rong cuz i sed".
> 
> ...



Oh look, some reading comprehension fail.  I countered Referee's point about Link jumping, as well as pointint out how he ignored Sephiroth's speed.  So also hypocrisy on your part.  Good job posting irrelevant drivel.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 28, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Link is already dead! I used the facts stated in the opening post so sephiroth would win nearly automatically. the strategy I used kills link in at most 35 seconds because speed at 255 brought the atb to max almost instantly. there is no defence the thread is over.


winner


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## Stroev (Apr 28, 2009)

No u ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).

And 35 is too long to take Link down. Even without gameplay mech's on, he can become invincible by then. Thus, the tie.


----------



## Supertails (Apr 28, 2009)

> Oh look, some reading comprehension fail. I countered Referee's point about Link jumping, as well as pointint out how he ignored Sephiroth's speed. So also hypocrisy on your part. Good job posting irrelevant drivel.


Hey, you didn't do too bad yourself, seeing as I mentioned in that post that your one (bad) point was pretty much already killed by Ref.  =D


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## Stroev (Apr 28, 2009)

Threads being destroyed rarely happen here anyways, especially in one post.

And then some stuff I'd debate, but I need to check OP again.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 28, 2009)

This thread is fucking hilarious. I even rated it five stars for the lulz


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 28, 2009)

Someone needs to dig up the _Begun the Flame War has_ pic...


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## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 28, 2009)

Survivor said:


> No u ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).
> 
> And 35 is too long to take Link down. Even without gameplay mech's on, he can become invincible by then. Thus, the tie.





Survivor said:


> Threads being destroyed rarely happen here anyways, especially in one post.
> 
> And then some stuff I'd debate, but I need to check OP again.



look brother, the frog status negates ALL magical weapon and armor abilities.
this means link is a frog. at max status link would be equivalent to a level 99 character with 9999 hp. being nice, Ill say hades did 5000 damage or, nearly half his hearts. on top of that it makes it so he is asleep,slow, paralyzed, silenced (no magic), small and confused. at 100%

this happens as soon as the fight starts instantly, and the way I used materia, sephiroth gets an automatic turn instantly after hades.

to make it easy he then casts heartless angel, which brings frog link down to 1 hp I.E a quarter heart. frog link is still slow AND paralized so all he can do is wait for death. next turn, sephiroth casts flare and has some nice tasty frog legs (they actually taste BETTER than chicken... its crazy )

like I said end thread. that rhymes 

well since no one can refute... I won! (fanfare plays)
experience: 1 
gil: 1,000,000,000  YEAH BABY!


----------



## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

Charcan said:


> Of course they are, in order to react to them and *move their arms* (and bodies, let's not forget Kadaj whom Cloud bested) *faster in order to strike them*. And since the starting distance isn't that big, Sephiroth is faster than these guys and has a really long range even without the long-distance slashes, he blitzes.



...Wait a second...Am I getting that the right way around? "He's faster than bullets because he's faster than bullets?" Because that's what it sounds like you said. You 'proved' X by stating X.
Eyes, on the other hand, say differently. Because, again, the bullets can't be seen with the naked eye. If the characters in AC moved faster than the naked eye (which, by definition, they would have to do to be as fast as or faster than the bullets), then AC wouldn't be the eyecandy that it is. You'd have a whole bunch of seemingly blank space, then some people falling to the ground.

I understand the concept of slowing down the camera for the audience. I. Get. It. But you can't only slow down one aspect. The swords can be seen; the bullets can't. I don't get how else I can say this! DX How do I make it make sense to you? The bullets are too fast for the naked eye, the arm are not. When they're both on-screen. At the same time. Without any slow-mo effects. At all. NONE. Okay? When they are both moving at their top speeds the swords simply do not keep up with the bullets because we can see the swords moving. I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I wanna make sure you understand, because you haven't been so far. 

You keep saying "If they're reacting to the bullets, then they're obviously faster than the bullets, silly Referee =P" but a quick scan with one's eyes proves that THEY ARE NOT. The bullets far outstrip the arms in visible speed. How do I know that? Because, AGAIN, I cannot see the bullets, but I can see the arms. Are you getting it yet? Your reasoning is flawed. It's based on false presumptions. You've got the cart before the horse and the horse isn't even there. I don't know how else I can say this, I really don't T____T The arms look like firehoses waggling around, the bullets look like air. Things that look like air are just moving too fast to be seen.

Did I get it through yet? Because the last several posts have somehow allowed you to miss the point, and I guess I apologize for that or something.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 28, 2009)

Referee said:


> ...Wait a second...Am I getting that the right way around? "He's faster than bullets because he's faster than bullets?" Because that's what it sounds like you said. You 'proved' X by stating X.
> Eyes, on the other hand, say differently. Because, again, the bullets can't be seen with the naked eye. If the characters in AC moved faster than the naked eye (which, by definition, they would have to do to be as fast as or faster than the bullets), then AC wouldn't be the eyecandy that it is. You'd have a whole bunch of seemingly blank space, then some people falling to the ground.
> 
> I understand the concept of slowing down the camera for the audience. I. Get. It. But you can't only slow down one aspect. The swords can be seen; the bullets can't. I don't get how else I can say this! DX How do I make it make sense to you? The bullets are too fast for the naked eye, the arm are not. When they're both on-screen. At the same time. Without any slow-mo effects. At all. NONE. Okay? When they are both moving at their top speeds the swords simply do not keep up with the bullets because we can see the swords moving. I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I wanna make sure you understand, because you haven't been so far.
> ...




DOOD, THAT IS A MOOT POINT.
sephiroth has won the battle. there is no escape from this. I made the most optimized sephiroth (within the rules guidelines) and no link can stop him.
can sephiroth block bullets... after I optimized him, he didn't need to 

plus, link uses arrows 

fact is seph babyshakes link.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

Frog status doesn't work on bosses =P Optimization failed.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 28, 2009)

Referee said:


> Frog status doesn't work on bosses =P Optimization failed.



not! link is and always has been a player character. not only that, he has shown weakness to transformation magic (twilight princess' wolf form), AND lacks the neccessary equipment to counter it.

don't even try...

counter-attack parried.


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## Densoro (Apr 28, 2009)

Player character, yes, but he's above fodder level and is one of a kind. Thus, boss-level. Furthermore, since when does Sephiroth have control over the magical forces covering an ENTIRE WORLD? Because that's what the Twilight Realm was. The world turned him into a wolf. Frog is a fodder-level magic spell that can be fought off by Playboy bunnies.

Counter counter attack parried.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 28, 2009)

Don't forget Majora's Mask.

Skull Kid turned Link into a Deku Scrub.

Link is not immune to spells that transform him. 

And Link is not boss level. He's main character level. 

Seriously though, you should know that NO main character in any FF game is naturally immune to Frog. Why should Link be any different? Do you have proof?


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 28, 2009)

Referee said:


> ...Wait a second...Am I getting that the right way around? "He's faster than bullets because he's faster than bullets?"



He's faster than bullets because he reacted to them after they were fired without depending on putting up and keeping a shield (insted of batting them out of the air with accuracy like the superhuman he is) or dodging the aim like Batman often does. That's how you prove someone is a bullet-timer in any fiction, be it animation or manga/comic pages (where I can sure see even FTL characters on panel, they are all no faster than me then).



> Because, again, the bullets can't be seen with the naked eye. If the characters in AC moved faster than the naked eye (which, by definition, they would have to do to be as fast as or faster than the bullets), then AC wouldn't be the eyecandy that it is. You'd have a whole bunch of seemingly blank space, then some people falling to the ground.



It's a fact AC is an action-ridden fanservice-fest for the game fans so that would be boring, and also reaction time doesn't necessarily equal vast movement speed even if Cloud beat someone who had great movement speed just with his own body speed-reactions. While deflecting bullets, no less.



> I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I wanna make sure you understand, because you haven't been so far.



You won't convince me they can't react to bullets if that's your concern. What, do they have a time field around them that slows down supersonic objects down to speeds a regular joe can track with his eyes? That, or it's a trope that just requires suspension of disbelief to accept the AC feats just like any other fiction. Take your pick.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 28, 2009)

Referee said:


> Player character, yes, but he's above fodder level and is one of a kind. Thus, boss-level. Furthermore, since when does Sephiroth have control over the magical forces covering an ENTIRE WORLD? Because that's what the Twilight Realm was. The world turned him into a wolf. Frog is a fodder-level magic spell that can be fought off by Playboy bunnies.
> 
> Counter counter attack parried.



makes no difference, level 99 cloud can be turned into a frog without fail for the sole reason that he has no inherant protection.

links race (fairy I believe...) has no inherant defence against magic of any kind. not only that, but link has never been a boss. 

also sephiroth has control over the life stream aka the magical forces of an entire world.

so you admit that link was infact transformed by magic.

there are no playboy bunnies in final fantasy 7. frog has NEVER been a fodder level spell, and frog was not cast . HADES was cast.
HADES has a 100% success rate unless an immunity is present.

there has never been such a said immunity within link.

use the rules... It had to have been proven before or it doesn't exist.

"hey ref! catch!" *throws shuriken* 


ah, madara42 you ninja'd mah post! .
you are the supperior shinobi... for now


----------



## Densoro (Apr 29, 2009)

Not that this hasn't been fun, Verdandi, but I just realized that you mentioned turns a while back. Link has no need for turns. He takes his turn DURING Sephiroth's and uses it to conduct the Command Melody. The Wind Waker stops time during use, and Sephiroth has never shown an immunity to the godly voices. He'd probably think they were tuning up for his theme song, then suddenly he's possessed and Link has him teleport himself into the sun.
Aside from that, your Optiroth is an infraction of Sephiroth's CIS =P He doesn't naturally use any of that stuff, he just goes in slashing. And since Skiboy's enforcing CIS stacked on top of bloodlust...

Still, that was way more fun than the rest of this debate has been. You had way more skill than that Narcissus moron ^___^ I actually had to think "How do I loophole this one?" instead of "How thick can this guy be?"

Charcan, lemme get this straight. You're saying that it's a trope that objects which move slower to the naked eye than other objects are actually faster than said other objects? An old western choo choo train is faster than bullets because you can see the train and not the bullets?


----------



## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 29, 2009)

Sephiroth casts Death on link.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm saying you don't get suspension of disbelief.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 29, 2009)

Madara42 said:


> Sephiroth casts Death on link.



Link gets revived, Sephiroth has to wait his turn. Link plays the Command Melody ^__^


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 29, 2009)

Referee said:


> Not that this hasn't been fun, Verdandi, but I just realized that you mentioned turns a while back. Link has no need for turns. He takes his turn DURING Sephiroth's and uses it to conduct the Command Melody. The Wind Waker stops time during use, and Sephiroth has never shown an immunity to the godly voices. He'd probably think they were tuning up for his theme song, then suddenly he's possessed and Link has him teleport himself into the sun.
> Aside from that, your Optiroth is an infraction of Sephiroth's CIS =P He doesn't naturally use any of that stuff, he just goes in slashing. And since Skiboy's enforcing CIS stacked on top of bloodlust...
> 
> Still, that was way more fun than the rest of this debate has been. You had way more skill than that Narcissus moron ^___^ I actually had to think "How do I loophole this one?" instead of "How thick can this guy be?"



Im glad you had fun... BUT! wait there's more!!!!
you said link has no need for turns right? well I thought of that. that is why I used final fantasy 7's wait configuration. that means while you are deciding an attack, the enemy does not move. it actually changes reality in the game. if it was not on you could have pulled that.

also OPTIROTH is the only sephiroth. he said EVERYTHING USED that means safer sephiroth's battle algorithms. he had about...10 diffent skills usable and used them all according to the ai. also sephiroth as a player character had and used spells. 
this obviously isn't cutscene sephiroth Im using, its in game sephiroth. and I haven't even brought up dissida sephiroth. he is RELENTLESS.

also a few facts to close.
.I could have used real time sephiroth and still taken advantage of his materia setup AND added constant movement, but I wanted to be fair so I used ff7 atb. if you want to add it, sephiroth can move while casting spells and instead of that 3 second pause between actions I used, there is no wait time for lower level spells.

. I did not use half of sephiroth's powers. I could have said he manefests the three AC clones, sephiroth can become intangible, fly, mindrape, mind control, cast death, ect.ect. I have been using a really tame version.
I didn't even rely on dissidia techniques.

. command flute would never work on sephiroth. he is immune to time and manipulation magic. und that is canon.


so yeah, ROUND 2


DAMMIT MADARA YOU NINJA'D ME AGAIN! we think alike...


----------



## Densoro (Apr 29, 2009)

Wait, so explain why we're using Sephiroth's homefield rules? Why should Link be confined to that format? He's never shown a need for it before =P
Anyway, any gameplay Sephiroth is doomed to the same fate =P Commanded into the sun. <333 timestopping instruments with mindcontrol from a source that the enemy has no resistance to.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 29, 2009)

Referee said:


> Wait, so explain why we're using Sephiroth's homefield rules? Why should Link be confined to that format? He's never shown a need for it before =P
> Anyway, any gameplay Sephiroth is doomed to the same fate =P Commanded into the sun. <333 timestopping instruments with mindcontrol from a source that the enemy has no resistance to.



So you mentioned Link's lack of turns in his own game to his advantage and then don't like it when Sephiroth's gameplay is to his advantage? Fail. The OP didn't mention gameplay rules were in anyway, or from which game AFAIK, just specified they had all their stuff.

Also when did he send anything into the Sun?


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 29, 2009)

Referee said:


> Wait, so explain why we're using Sephiroth's homefield rules? Why should Link be confined to that format? He's never shown a need for it before =P
> Anyway, any gameplay Sephiroth is doomed to the same fate =P Commanded into the sun. <333 timestopping instruments with mindcontrol from a source that the enemy has no resistance to.



I don't think you read my post correctly, sephiroth's immunities include time magic, and manipulation (aka mind control) magic. he is FULLY immune to it.

also, as I said before, the time slots are a restiriction to sephiroth. not link.

take them off, sephiroth has a higher running speed, AND does not need to move anyway. as soon as the battle officially starts, link is incapasitated due to materia combos. all he needs to do after that is cutto,cutto,cutto,CUTTO!

and battle won. or as smash brothers says...
GAME!


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## Densoro (Apr 29, 2009)

He's never been able to posses anything with the ability to travel that far because nothing in Hyrule can. But if Sephy's so fast that I just need to infinitely suspend my disbelief and take all of his abilities at ten times their face value, then he should be able to make the trek easily =P

And it was only okay for me to use Link's real-time rules because that put each on their own playing field.

EDIT: That's a No Limits Fallacy. Sephy's never been in danger of possession by the godly voices.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 29, 2009)

Referee said:


> He's never been able to posses anything with the ability to travel that far because nothing in Hyrule can. But if Sephy's so fast that I just need to infinitely suspend my disbelief and take all of his abilities at ten times their face value, then he should be able to make the trek easily =P



That's a no?



> EDIT: That's a No Limits Fallacy. Sephy's never been in danger of possession by the godly voices.



What feats do those godly voices have? What's the best they have controlled?


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## Densoro (Apr 29, 2009)

They can stop time just by clearing their throats to start singing. I'd say that's pretty high up there.

Also, if Verdandi gets prep time to build Optiroth, I get to prep Link. And I think we all know which combo I choose. Also, there have been 28 bottles total in the Zelda series. Each was a different one. So Link has 28 Chateau Romanis, which translates to 84 hours of Magic Cape.


----------



## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 29, 2009)

When has Link mind controlled any enemy? The best he's shown is seagulls.

And when has Link played a song that stopped time and allowed him to attack his  frozen enemies?


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 29, 2009)

Referee said:


> He's never been able to posses anything with the ability to travel that far because nothing in Hyrule can. But if Sephy's so fast that I just need to infinitely suspend my disbelief and take all of his abilities at ten times their face value, then he should be able to make the trek easily =P
> 
> And it was only okay for me to use Link's real-time rules because that put each on their own playing field.
> 
> EDIT: That's a No Limits Fallacy. Sephy's never been in danger of possession by the godly voices.



its not that sephiroth is that fast, (Id clock him at mabye 75 mph running) but that he can teleport at will. anywhere he likes.

you can use his real time rules. lemme show you sephiroth in real time.

*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKFEU43X92w&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED281OXl2f8&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]




JENOVA.... and he ended up controling her.
plus just because someone is immune to something, doesn't mean its a no-limits fallacy. it just means it is unlimited.

the fallacy comes in when something that SHOULD be limited is described as something that isn't.


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## Densoro (Apr 29, 2009)

Yes, but the seagulls have shown more resistance to the godly voices than Sephy has. Also, the timestopper wasn't a song, silly. It was a little stopwatch that he just clicked to stop time.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 29, 2009)

Referee said:


> Yes, but the seagulls have shown more resistance to the godly voices than Sephy has.



That's not how burden of proof works.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 29, 2009)

Referee said:


> Yes, but the seagulls have shown more resistance to the godly voices than Sephy has. Also, the timestopper wasn't a song, silly. It was a little stopwatch that he just clicked to stop time.



I only recall those stop watches appearing (rarely) when you kill a fodder enemy. There are no fodder enemies here.

Try again.


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 29, 2009)

All items are present and accounted for.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 29, 2009)

Referee said:


> Yes, but the seagulls have shown more resistance to the godly voices than Sephy has. Also, the timestopper wasn't a song, silly. It was a little stopwatch that he just clicked to stop time.



well maybe that one wing is from a seagull,cause that strategy ain't
gonna fly()

immunity is immunity. I am immune to the chicken-pox. no-limit fallacy? hardly.

link is still a frog and you just opened up pandora's box letting old cateyes use realtime. eight hits/per hit. add that up with 4xattack and that is sixteen attacks per hit. sixteen chances per hit to get off 
death,confusion,petrify,and stop. and they all have 1/5 chance to work.


sephiroth in dissidia final fantasy 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKFEU43X92w&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED281OXl2f8&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 29, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> All items are present and accounted for.



Wouldn't that only apply to items Link can use from his inventory throughout the games? The stop watch was never an Item he could use in his inventory.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 29, 2009)

Madara42 said:


> Wouldn't that only apply to items Link can use from his inventory throughout the games? The stop watch was never an Item he could use in his inventory.



it matters not, friend. It would be wasteful to use it. its like casting a fire spell on a red dragon. completely futile.

also its my bed-time (2 AM) so I will see what happens tommorow.
oyasumi :sleepy


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## Thelonious (Apr 29, 2009)

The way I see it, Sephiroth takes this one.


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## Raigen (Apr 29, 2009)

Don't see the point in trying to argue Sephiroth's speed since he's blatantly faster than Link by a huge margin. All you ever needed to do was see his fight with Cloud. When you can cut something so fast that it's set on fire, you know that's effing fast.


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## Supertails (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm still wanting to know how Sephy will stop Link from putting on his magic cape before an instant has passed.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 29, 2009)

Supertails said:


> I'm still wanting to know how Sephy will stop Link from putting on his magic cape before an instant has passed.



if you looked at my thread shattering build, sephiroth need only to equip
sneak attack:Hades + pre emptive.

link will end up facing the wrong direction, and will get a slew of status effects that have a 100% success rate. the most important being 
sleep,slow, and the gamebreaker, frog.

link has no defense from this spell and no way to cure it. after frog takes affect all weapons,armor, and accessories are rendered useless. this means that cape of intangibility is null in void.

the most reliable kill method after that is sephiroth's pale horse to inflict even more status effects, followed by heartless angel which leaves the victim with one hit point. link can then croak once for masamune impailment, or twice for a nice spell...

I did that with a relatively weak manefestation of sephiroth. If I really got evil with it... whew...
well, he won.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 29, 2009)

Supertails said:


> I'm still wanting to know how Sephy will stop Link from putting on his magic cape before an instant has passed.


CIS on means he gets gutted before he thinks about how he's going to get raped instead of starting the fight with Magic Cape?


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## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 29, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> CIS on means he gets gutted before he thinks about how he's going to get raped instead of starting the fight with Magic Cape?



this match was over as soon as the op allowed sephiroth to possess all materia. the combo I used makes it so that as soon as the fact that there is a battle is present, an automatic summon comes out. this summon turns link into a frog and puts him to sleep. 

after that he gets all but one of his hearts/hp destroyed via *heartless angel* (ironic as hell right?!) then one attack and link is dead.

he has master:magic,summons,commands, and all of his special moves. litterally over 100 ways to kill link.


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## Densoro (Apr 29, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> CIS on means he gets gutted before he thinks about how he's going to get raped instead of starting the fight with Magic Cape?



No, CIS means that Sephiroth walks up to him and starts talking dramatically. You said before that Sephy does his best to instakill anybody but Cloud, but Genesis disagrees. Link draws his sword (which is now the Four) and his clones sneak attack Sephy mid-sentence. GG

Also, Raigen, who's to say it was speed that set those buildings on fire? Cloud had channeled magic through his sword before in the movie.

Also, if Charcan's point about suspension of disbelief is valid, then it should work for Link too. Heads, Link's a disbelief-suspended lasertimer (because the Square boys are suspended bullet-timers). Tails, the Square boys are merely aimdodgers and their attacks move at perceived speed. 

Verdandi, has Hades ever been shown to hit despite intangibility? If you got prep time to build Optiroth, I get prep time to use Magic Cape, and that could be the defining feature.
Also, he could just use that dark core-type thingy from TP to transform out of frog form if it hits him.


----------



## The World (Apr 29, 2009)

I don't remember him talking dramatically to Aerith, or Tifa or all of Nibelheim, or at the end of the game. 

He only talks to people who talk to him. And Link can't talk.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 29, 2009)

Actually, he talks all the time, we just can't hear him. Says people all over the game ^^ "Good, your voice carries as well as ever."


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 29, 2009)

Referee said:


> Verdandi, has Hades ever been shown to hit despite intangibility? If you got prep time to build Optiroth, I get prep time to use Magic Cape, and that could be the defining feature.
> Also, he could just use that dark core-type thingy from TP to transform out of frog form if it hits him.



that is a factor that I did'nt include because I assumed there is a button you must push to activate the cloak. I didn't say he could not have the cloak, but just like casting a spell, links actions require controler input and usually require singular action 
(i.e he cant attack while using his shield because it takes up his action focus)

I am assuming the cape is wrapped around him. if it has a permanent equip effect, then this battle can go to stalemate by sephiroth ALSO becoming intangible. or they can both do so, and we can find out if link is immune to telepathic mind control. 

if not, sephiroth commands him to remove whatever is causing the intangibility magic (assuming he is unaware of the cape), and tells him to completely disarm himself. he casts remove on the equipment, casts shield on himself just in case, and lowers his intangibility. he casts pale horse to give link every status effect except petrify and death. then he casts heartless angel to take link down to one hit point. just for the lulz he activates _super nova: v2_ and wins the battle.

if this doesn't work, the cape is active, hades gets bypassed, then sephiroth finally starts the CIS taunting that people says he does all the time... link thinks "he's open!" and does this clone thingy.

that activates his "counter magic:shield" combo which makes him invincible after the hits take place. now that link is open, he can cast "quadra magic:hades" and start the "death algorithm".

any counters?


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 29, 2009)

Golden armor + tons of rupees


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## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 29, 2009)

Spanish Hoffkage said:


> Golden armor + tons of rupees



and what exactly does that do, my friend?
(I am really rusty on the whole zelda thing...)


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 29, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> and what exactly does that do, my friend?
> (I am really rusty on the whole zelda thing...)



exchanges damages for money


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 29, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> and what exactly does that do, my friend?
> (I am really rusty on the whole zelda thing...)



While wearing it, you lose Rupees instead of taking damage if  you're hit by an attack.


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 29, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> and what exactly does that do, my friend?
> (I am really rusty on the whole zelda thing...)



It makes Link totally invincible so long as he has rubies to spare, once you run out the armor's pretty much useless.


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## Densoro (Apr 29, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> that is a factor that I did'nt include because I assumed there is a button you must push to activate the cloak.


There is, but I get prep time to push it, just as you get prep time to arm Sephy with all that stuff.




> that activates his "counter magic:shield" combo which makes him invincible after the hits take place. now that link is open, he can cast "quadra magic:hades" and start the "death algorithm".
> 
> any counters?



Link wouldn't be open after that. He can attack from intangibility with no ill effects. He does full damage and his body remains unexposed. Furthermore, in this scenario, he wouldn't use the Four Sword gambit, he'd just ghoststab Sephy in the chest.

Also, how can Sephy become intangible? o_O


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## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 29, 2009)

ah...souka. the maximum amount of rupies is 500 right...

ok, sephiroth can do 16 attacks per slash, 16 X 32 = 502. OR, I could go the easy route and use heartless angel to bring link to one rupee.

Ill be offline for about an hour, so carry on. brb.


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 29, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> ah...souka. the maximum amount of rupies is 500 right...
> 
> ok, sephiroth can do 16 attacks per slash, 16 X 32 = 502. OR, I could go the easy route and use heartless angel to bring link to one rupee.
> 
> Ill be offline for about an hour, so carry on. brb.



thats in TP

in other games he can carry thousands

technically in Majora you can have an infinite amount


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 29, 2009)

Does Link get all of the wallets from every game?


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## dark messiah verdandi (Apr 29, 2009)

Referee said:


> There is, but I get prep time to push it, just as you get prep time to arm Sephy with all that stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



sorry for the double post, but before I go...

that sir is bullshit.... that's like saying sephiroth has prep-time to beat link in his sleep. prep-time is only to arm yourself. not to activate any abilities before the battle starts. 

put it this way, link has all his items equiped right? the materia comboes are just magic items, and don't have a "pre-battle" effect. they can automatically start at the first iota of time in the battle, but they can't start before the battle itself starts...

plus sephiroth has absolutely NO preptime. that is just a build. he can get out of bed with that and still kick just about anyone's ass. it was not to solely defeat link. it just can very well.


also, sephiroth has been able to become intangible since ff7. it primarily happened in story scenes.


@hoffmeister. heartless angel ALLWAYS reduces hitpoints to 1. he can be a billionare and it would be irrelivant.


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 29, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Does Link get all of the wallets from every game?



if he does he has infinite source of rupees from Majoras


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 29, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Does Link get all of the wallets from every game?



If he does, Sephiroth's screwed, can you imagine a infinite rubies + Golden Armor + Fierce Deity mask combo


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 29, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> @hoffmeister. heartless angel ALLWAYS reduces hitpoints to 1. he can be a billionare and it would be irrelivant.



the point is if we agree on unlimited amount


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 29, 2009)

> plus sephiroth has absolutely NO preptime. that is just a build. he can get out of bed with that and still kick just about anyone's ass. it was not to solely defeat link. it just can very well.



Except that he's never used those materia combinations before so unless he's had time before the fight to equip those combos he ain't using them.


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## Stroev (Apr 29, 2009)

And that Link and Sephy get everything.

Though neither had used these combo's, I think Link has more experience using mulitple items and such. And plus he doesn't really need to know how to put on armor/mask or drink.


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## Densoro (Apr 29, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> sorry for the double post, but before I go...
> 
> that sir is bullshit.... that's like saying sephiroth has prep-time to beat link in his sleep. prep-time is only to arm yourself. not to activate any abilities before the battle starts.



It's not an ability. It's a piece of equipment with an ability. Link gets to start wearing it before the battle begins, just like Sephy. You get to equip before battle, so do I. You equip that whole list you've spewed out several times, I equip my cape.

Object to my choice of equipment and I object to yours =P


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## Emperor Joker (Apr 29, 2009)

Referee said:


> It's not an ability. It's a piece of equipment with an ability. Link gets to start wearing it before the battle begins, just like Sephy. You get to equip before battle, so do I. You equip that whole list you've spewed out several times, I equip my cape.
> 
> Object to my choice of equipment and I object to yours =P



You don't even need the cape anymore, if the whole infinite rubees works out, Link can just equip Magic Armor and sit back and relax until Sephiroth tires himself out.


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## Stroev (Apr 29, 2009)

Another one has pointed out a potential tie. Again.

Which should be the most logical end. Or you look at the first page and see the hate for him saying that he loses.


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## Densoro (Apr 29, 2009)

Cape's a bit more reliable than the armor, though. Especially if they insist that Heartless Angel can reduce even infinity to 1. Link just needs 1 MP to sustain the cape. 1 rupee, on the other hand, won't work =P


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 30, 2009)

I also remember the magnet gauntlet.

Seph sword is made of metal, isnt it??


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## Seijun Togiretogire (Apr 30, 2009)

Referee said:


> Cape's a bit more reliable than the armor, though. Especially if they insist that Heartless Angel can reduce even infinity to 1. Link just needs 1 MP to sustain the cape. 1 rupee, on the other hand, won't work =P



Heartless Angel removes all MP to 0; it's HP that's reduced to zero. <_<

After Heartless Angel, the Cape is useless until/unless Link uses a potion that refills it or something.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 30, 2009)

Referee said:


> No, CIS means that Sephiroth walks up to him and starts talking dramatically. You said before that Sephy does his best to instakill anybody but Cloud, but Genesis disagrees. Link draws his sword (which is now the Four) and his clones sneak attack Sephy mid-sentence. GG



Too bad that only happens when there's a plot to monologue about. Congratulations for mixing PIS and CIS up.



> Also, if Charcan's point about suspension of disbelief is valid, then it should work for Link too. Heads, Link's a disbelief-suspended lasertimer (because the Square boys are suspended bullet-timers). Tails, the Square boys are merely aimdodgers and their attacks move at perceived speed.



Durr. Magic beams are not lasers durr.



> Verdandi, has Hades ever been shown to hit despite intangibility? If you got prep time to build Optiroth, I get prep time to use Magic Cape, and that could be the defining feature.
> Also, he could just use that dark core-type thingy from TP to transform out of frog form if it hits him.



Link goes Magic Cloak, Sephiroth merges with the Lifestream and Meteors the whole planet to hell. Link suffocates and Sephiroth pulls himself out. GG.


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## Sephiroth (Apr 30, 2009)

Heartless angel ends this battle it seems.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 30, 2009)

Aizen Sosuke said:


> Heartless angel ends this battle it seems.


Sephiroth gutting Link before he starts a proper thought ends this battle, it seems.


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## Canute87 (Apr 30, 2009)

Spanish Hoffkage said:


> Its way easier
> 
> Link stops time and stabs Sephirot in the head



Remember Link can even go back in time and kill sephiroth as a child.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 30, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> Too bad that only happens when there's a plot to monologue about. Congratulations for mixing PIS and CIS up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Link can just go back in time via Harp of Ages, Link has way too much items,abilities etc. There's no way Sephiroth can beat him.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 30, 2009)

ChidoriCurrent said:


> Link can just go back in time via Harp of Ages, Link has way too much items,abilities etc. There's no way Sephiroth can beat him.


Battle starts. Sephiroth stabs him with superior speed. Link dies, his abilities go to waste. That, or Link going back in time counts as BFR. Take your pick. Link has no chance in a straight fight, at all.


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## Raigen (Apr 30, 2009)

Or, Link goes back in time only to figure out he has no idea who Sephiroth's mother is and gets a bullet in his head courtesy of Vincent Valentine, who at the time was still a Turks member.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 30, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> Battle starts. Sephiroth stabs him with superior speed. Link dies, his abilities go to waste. That, or Link going back in time counts as BFR. Take your pick. Link has no chance in a straight fight, at all.



Sephiroth can attack faster than it takes Link to put on a Cape, or dress into battle with the Magic Armor? I'm Pretty sure if Link and Sephiroth can start the battle with their Swords, it wouldn't be so difficult to put on a cape or armor before the battle.


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## Raigen (Apr 30, 2009)

You don't seem to get that Link isn't fast enough to do it before Sephiroth decapitates him.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 30, 2009)

Raigen said:


> You don't seem to get that Link isn't fast enough to do it before Sephiroth decapitates him.



Read my post clearly, what i'm Saying is that Link and Sephiroth are allowed to  dress into battle before the fight starts, am i not correct?
ex. Sephiroth------> Materia
     Link------> Magic Armor, Cape


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## Raigen (Apr 30, 2009)

It says they start with all their items, but Link can't have 'everything' equipped at once. And unlike the games, there is no pause in play so Link could don the cloak. Regardless of whether or not he has it, it doesn't matter. As I've said before, if Sephy can use any Materia then he just uses Erase which completely removes Link from existence.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 30, 2009)

Raigen said:


> It says they start with all their items, but Link can't have 'everything' equipped at once. And unlike the games, there is no pause in play so Link could don the cloak. Regardless of whether or not he has it, it doesn't matter. As I've said before, if Sephy can use any Materia then he just uses Erase which completely removes Link from existence.



You say that they are allowed to start with their items, but link can't put on the cape. And this battle isn't going by gameplay mechanics so there would be no reason to press pause. How can Sephiroth use Erase if he can't see what he's casting it on?

Oh and By the way, i read up on Erase and this is what it does:
*
Erase is a spell that can be used to remove a variety of status effects not covered by one of the other "-na" status removal spells; however, Erase cannot remove the following status ailments: weakened, KOed, amnesia, or terror. This spell is available primarily to White Mages, but can also be cast by a 39+ Scholar with Addendum: White active.*


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## Raigen (Apr 30, 2009)

Erase doesn't require anything. He casts it and all enemies on the field are nullified. Period.


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## ChidoriCurrent (Apr 30, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Erase doesn't require anything. He casts it and all enemies on the field are nullified. Period.



nullification=/= removing from existence.
Intangibility isn't something that can be nullified.


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## Raigen (Apr 30, 2009)

Wouldn't matter if your intangible or not and intangibility doesn't prevent your existence from being nullified. The spell Erases you. It's when when used in the game, you get nothing after the battle. No Exp, no gp, no items, no nothing. Because there's nothing left.


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## God (Apr 30, 2009)

I just wanna get one thing straight. Is this KH or FF Sephiroth.

Cuz AC Seph would just cut link up so horibly. KH is arguable.


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## skiboydoggy (Apr 30, 2009)

Cubey said:


> I just wanna get one thing straight. Is this KH or FF Sephiroth.
> 
> Cuz AC Seph would just cut link up so horibly. KH is arguable.


Everything Sephiroth. As in, 100% AC Sephiroth + KH Sephiroth + Last Order Sephiroth since that got retconned by Crisis Core.


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## Supertails (Apr 30, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Wouldn't matter if your intangible or not and intangibility doesn't prevent your existence from being nullified. The spell Erases you. It's when when used in the game, you get nothing after the battle. No Exp, no gp, no items, no nothing. Because there's nothing left.





> Erase is a spell that can be used to remove a variety of status effects not covered by one of the other "-na" status removal spells; however, Erase cannot remove the following status ailments: weakened, KOed, amnesia, or terror. This spell is available primarily to White Mages, but can also be cast by a 39+ Scholar with Addendum: White active.


It says it removes status effects.

Existence is not a status effect.


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## Shock Therapy (Apr 30, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Wouldn't matter if your intangible or not and intangibility doesn't prevent your existence from being nullified. The spell Erases you. It's when when used in the game, you get nothing after the battle. No Exp, no gp, no items, no nothing. Because there's nothing left.



It doesn't erase your existence.


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## Stroev (Apr 30, 2009)

So I wonder how this thread got back up on it's feet again.


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## Raigen (Apr 30, 2009)

I haven't played it in years. I mixed up the name of one spell for another. The actual name of the spell is "Remove"


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## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> Too bad that only happens when there's a plot to monologue about. Congratulations for mixing PIS and CIS up.



Because chatting about a random play was just so damn important.




> Durr. Magic beams are not lasers durr.



And yet if memory serves, you were one of the people calling everybody involved in the Xemnas fight lightspeeders because those glowing bricks that he was tossing around were apparently lasers. That quote right there is cause for immediate dewank of projectiles on your side, too =P
Also, could you not sound like such a condescending shit, please? Thinly-veiled ad hominem doesn't do jack shit for your point =/




> Link goes Magic Cloak, Sephiroth merges with the Lifestream and Meteors the whole planet to hell. Link suffocates and Sephiroth pulls himself out. GG.



Except Link doesn't suffocate with the cape on. And what do you mean he 'pulls himself out'? Out of what? Space?
Anyway, what guarantee caped Link would let Sephy do that? I'd imagine there'd be a rain of invisible Ice Arrows to deal with first.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Referee said:


> Because chatting about a random play was just so damn important.



Bloodlust and PIS off. Learn them.



> And yet if memory serves, you were one of the people calling everybody involved in the Xemnas fight lightspeeders because those glowing bricks that he was tossing around were apparently lasers.



Red herring.



> Except Link doesn't suffocate with the cape on.



Proof of Link surviving in space.



> I'd imagine there'd be a rain of invisible Ice Arrows to deal with first.



He gets blitzed.


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## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

I did learn them. Sephy started talking because he's stupid as a character, too. He loves to talk; this is CIS. Yay.

Not a red herring, just a point that I'd been meaning to bring up. It served its purpose.

Proof of Sephiroth surviving in space too. Otherwise they both suffocate and it's a tie. Unless of course the cape prevents suffocation as I do believe it does. It seems it would, since there's not much air inside a gigantic rock turtle, which Link's stood inside of with the cape.

Sephy does? By the invisarrows? Are you agreeing with me? =O


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Referee said:


> I did learn them.



No, you didn't. Plot influences: null and void, it's the rules. He wasn't bloodlusted when dominating Cloud despite his only ocassional talking to a character he had a reason to talk to, so Link is screwed.



> Proof of Sephiroth surviving in space too. Otherwise they both suffocate and it's a tie.



Concession accepted on the non-suffocation bit. Sephiroth blitzes and kills him.


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## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

There was no concession. Kindly read my full post -__-;


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Referee said:


> There was no concession. Kindly read my full post -__-;



I did, and it's full of ignorant crap about PIS/CIS and no proof of Link being shown to survive what you claimed he could, therefore a concession.

And lol at Link having any chance against Lucy.


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## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

Breathing with his head phased through a fucking rock isn't proof of him being able to breathe with a lack of air nearby? -__- And I'm the one spouting ignorant crap? Tell ya what, go stick your head in a rock and tell me how well you breathe. Make sure it's sealed airtight, since that's the closest you'll get to sticking your head through a rock with NO air inside.
There was indeed proof of Link surviving what I claimed he could. Maybe instead of instantly writing off my arguments because they're mine, you could actually fucking listen =D


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## Stroev (Apr 30, 2009)

Invincible Link who can't hurt Sephiroth vs. Sephiroth who can't be beat.

GEE I WONDER WHO WINS GUYS.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Referee said:


> Breathing with his head phased through a fucking rock isn't proof of him being able to breathe with a lack of air nearby? -__-



Post some proof that he can survive in outer space conditions (lol at you thinking it's just a lack of air) for any given amount of time, or you are wanking again.

And it doesn't matter. Starting distance means he eats a sword before he can do anything.


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## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

I know that there's damaging forces present in space (radiation, vacuum, etc), but when you're intangible, THOSE DON'T MATTER =D I thought we'd already established that. Physical attacks don't work, and I thought you realized that and just wanted to choke him out. Well, both of those failed, so yeah. Physical attacks pass right through and Link still has 0 trouble breathing.

Aside from that, he's been on the moon, so, uh, yeah.

And again, Sephy isn't as fast as bullets. Not at all. Thinking that he's faster despite blatant visual evidence to the contrary is crap. Suspension of disbelief doesn't cover it, it just doesn't add up. I can't suspend my disbelief when somebody writes "5 + 7 = 42." Not even Douglas Adams is worth that level of handwaving; Sephiroth's not even close to earning it.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Still not seeing proof of Link being shown to do stuff in outer space, like surviving lack of air for any amount of time (your moon stuff is meaningless so far, I can survive in some fictional moons because of the different ways they are to the real one so prove it is the same as ours with canon info or concede), or being able to return wherever he wants.

And your ignorant use of the style over substance fallacy won't make Sephiroth (or any number of characters with similar fast reactions in the OBD) slower just because you say so. Default starting distance, OP doesn't specify they have everything equipped, Sephiroth kills him before he can equip or do a thing.


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## Onomatopoeia (Apr 30, 2009)

Sephiroth: *blitzes Link*
Link: *Fairy revives*
Sephiroth: NO WAI DOOD! I MUST BE ON A BAD ACID TRIP OR SOMETHING!
Link: *puts on Magic Cape*


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## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

>____<
HE BREATHED THROUGH SOLID MOTHERFUCKING STONE. What in the fuck is so hard to understand about that?! Solid. Stone. You can't breathe through that shit. He can. How do you not get this? How can I make it make sense to you? Or are you just being an ass on purpose because it's me?

Fine. Link is lightspeed. Not for any reason, just because he is. Don't try using the style over substance thing against me, because that's just dumb.
Do you see how that sounds? This isn't a fucking question of style, it's basic Goddamn physics. "If bullet leaves barrel at 238973487233mph and Sephiroth, six feet away, swings his sword at 2 MPH, how long does it take him to block it?" Too long; it'd already have hit by now.

Your ignorant use of tropes over physics won't get you anywhere. Even with tropes, if an attack moves faster, it fucking moves faster. I don't know how I can make you understand that. You're trying to dress up pure Square wank, and it's not worth half a shit; the only reason nobody's calling you on it is because you're using it against me, so that makes it alright. But understand, an attack that moves slower moves slower. That's just common motherfucking sense.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Referee said:


> You can't breathe through that shit. He can. How do you not get this? How can I make it make sense to you? Or are you just being an ass on purpose because it's me?



So you didn't provide proof for what I very specifically asked. Concession accepted.



> Fine. Link is lightspeed. Not for any reason, just because he is.



If you could prove he has reacted, after they were fired, to attacks shown/stated to be lightspeed instead of some generic energy beams so common in fiction, it'd be enough proof and you wouldn't need to spew bullshit.



> Your ignorant use of tropes over physics won't get you anywhere.



Your ignorant use of logical fallacies won't get you anywhere here.


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## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

[Snip]I've proven that he can survive every aspect of space separately, and there is nothing the the nature of those components that suggests they'd work better against this defense when combined. The physical trials are phazed through, and he can breathe in any situation.

But of course you won't accept that because I'm me and you're apparently so far above me.

So lemme get this straight. Those beams aren't lasers because beams are incredibly common in fiction...but you won't accept that those guns are horrifically nerfed, even though horrifically nerfed guns are incredibly common in fiction, too? I have yet to see ANY worthwhile feats from these guns, only fodder attacks that aren't worth jack shit. And even still, they move faster than Sephiroth does. Your eyes are enough equipment to measure that. Denying it isn't a logical fallacy if only because it hit the point of 'blatant fucking denial' long before then.


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## Supertails (Apr 30, 2009)

> So you didn't provide proof for what I very specifically asked. Concession accepted.


Link breathed in a rock.  Which has no air.

Therefore, it's very likely he can breathe in space.

Please explain to me just *what* you don't understand about this.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Referee said:


> I did provide proof, you're just too much of a useless dick to accept it.



I didn't see proof of any extended lack of air being endured or him being noted to not need to breathe (there's characters who have not needed air for an hour but I'd never claim them to not need to breathe at all without proof), ability to move at will in outer space, or the moon being like ours instead of some magical realm or what have you. No, you didn't prove what I asked. You're just repeating yourself. At least you aren't claiming the sun teleporting BS anymore.



> So lemme get this straight. Those beams aren't lasers because beams are incredibly common in fiction...



Lack of proof is lack of proof. Keep repeating the style over substance fallacy ad nauseam while trying to pass off a false analogy between guns and some energy beams of unknown properties.


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## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

...Okay. No proof of a lack of air? Because standing inside a rock turtle for several minutes doesn't count, I suppose. It's not like people suffocate when trapped airtight behind rocks or anything. Of course not. This is doubly the case when their mouth is actually sealed shut by said rocks. There's no way that would cause asphyxiation in any way, shape or form. You're right, I gave no proof whatsoever. I'm such a stupid, stupid man. brb, killing self to benefit mankind.

It's not style, and quit calling it that. If two people are racing and one crosses the finish line first, he won't appear to be in second place. Your argument simply doesn't make any sense. At all. Style is "hurhur I'mma spin my sword a bit before finishing you." This is completely different. I know that you won't accept this because you won't accept anything, but God damn, you're gonna look stupid denying it. First place means first place, and the bullets have won every single race in the movie.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Referee said:


> ...Okay. No proof of a lack of air? Because...





Charcan said:


> I didn't see proof of any extended lack of air being endured or him being noted to not need to breathe (there's characters who have not needed air for an hour but I'd never claim them to not need to breathe at all without proof), ability to move at will in outer space, or the moon being like ours instead of some magical realm or what have you.





> It's not style, and quit calling it that.



Since it has all to do with the style chosen for the movie, and the fallacy addresses this kind of absurd thinking, I call it as I see it. And since I'm not the only one who can accept this, in this thread or with other characters, your whining means nothing to me.


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## Supertails (Apr 30, 2009)

Jesus Christ, you wouldn't accept *anything*.  If I find you an exact quote from a game saying "Link doesn't have to breathe", you'd come up with some bullshit about "Oh well you see that only counts where he comes from you have no proof that he doesn't have to in SPACE."

Show me proof Sephy doesn't have to breathe in space.  Ever.  I want proof he *never* has to breathe.  Not just that he can hold his breath for extended periods of time, or anything I could debate shows that, I want *absolute proof* he doesn't have to breathe.

Also, I should note that you have no proof they can go faster than the bullets.  Don't argue "NO THEY DID THAT BECAUSE SO YOU CAN FOLLOW IT", because you *have.  No.  Proof.*

Don't tell Ref he's wrong for not having proof for *the specific situation* you require when you can't even show proof yourself for *your* points, yet keep blatantly asserting them anyways.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Supertails said:


> Jesus Christ, you wouldn't accept *anything*.  If I find you an exact quote from a game saying "Link doesn't have to breathe"



That would be fine, actually. I just don't want to pay attention to the no-limits fallacy without proof.



> Show me proof Sephy doesn't have to breathe in space.  Ever.  I want proof he *never* has to breathe.  Not just that he can hold his breath for extended periods of time, or anything I could debate shows that, I want *absolute proof* he doesn't have to breathe because of his heritage.



Well, by the time of AC he was a weirdo ethereal manifestation borne from a bunch of Jenova cells that were alive swimming in some lab fluid in a sealed box, Jenova also traversing outer space and surviving as buried remains, Sephiroth also surviving trapped below the planet for years. So I wasn't arguing that point particularly, but it's a pretty good possibility he doesn't need to breathe.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

Movie style would be if they did something like direct the whole movie in Matrix-style bullet-time. But if they did that, the bullets would be visible. No matter what style they used, if Sephy was actually faster than bullets, it would look like it. There's no amount of funny camerawork that can bypass that, no amount of changing the film speed. Nothing. If he was faster, it would seem that way. End of.

EDIT: MC isn't a No Limits Fallacy. It doesn't automatically block all damage, it just lets it pass right on through. You can't NL intangibility.


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## Supertails (Apr 30, 2009)

> Well, by the time of AC he was a weirdo ethereal manifestation borne from a bunch of Jenova cells that were alive swimming in some lab fluid in a sealed box, Jenova also traversing outer space and surviving as buried remains, Sephiroth also surviving trapped below the planet for years. So I wasn't arguing that point particularly, but it's a pretty good possibility he doesn't need to breathe.


And it's a pretty good possibility that Link doesn't need to breathe, too, but since you won't accept that, I don't see any real reason to accept yours.

Also, I know I edited these in, so I dunno if you caught 'em, but here they are again.



> Also, I should note that you have no proof they can go faster than the bullets. Don't argue "NO THEY DID THAT BECAUSE SO YOU CAN FOLLOW IT", because you have. No. Proof.
> 
> Don't tell Ref he's wrong for not having proof for the specific situation you require when you can't even show proof yourself for your points, yet keep blatantly asserting them anyways.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

> Movie style would be if they did something like direct the whole movie in Matrix-style bullet-time. But if they did that, the bullets would be visible. No matter what style they used, if Sephy was actually faster than bullets, it would look like it. There's no amount of funny camerawork that can bypass that, no amount of changing the film speed. Nothing. If he was faster, it would seem that way. End of.



God, you just described why it's a fallacy, and you keep adhering to it.



Referee said:


> EDIT: MC isn't a No Limits Fallacy. It doesn't automatically block all damage, it just lets it pass right on through. You can't NL intangibility.



That wasn't what I was talking about, but characters in fiction who can rape intangibles through punching say hi.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Supertails said:


> And it's a pretty good possibility that Link doesn't need to breathe, too, but since you won't accept that, I don't see any real reason to accept yours.



Mine is far better evidence than what has been mentioned so far for Link, not to mention possibilities aren't proof. What I mention all adds up.



> Also, I know I edited these in, so I dunno if you caught 'em, but here they are again.



Being another adherent of a logical fallacy won't dismiss the fact AC characters react to bullets and Sephiroth is faster than them.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

...Wait. So I tell you that there's no way the style could work in your favor...and I'm the one who's wrong? I think you may be dyslexic or something ._. I feel bad for insulting you now.

Sephiroth isn't one of those characters, as far as I know. And besides, how the hell does that work? O_o


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Referee said:


> I'm the one who's wrong?



You mention two fictions with different presentation styles who otherwise have the same kind of feats. Guess what is priority as far as presenting evidence.



> Sephiroth isn't one of those characters, as far as I know. And besides, how the hell does that work? O_o



You claimed intangibility can't be applied the no-limits fallacy. That's not true. Anyway, Sephiroth still blitzes.


----------



## Supertails (Apr 30, 2009)

> Being another adherent of a logical fallacy won't dismiss the fact AC characters react to bullets and Sephiroth is faster than them.


How?  For God's sake explain HOW for once.  You can block something without bullet timing it.  Someone shoots me and I anticipate the shot, I can block it.  That DOES NOT MEAN I CAN BULLET-TIME.  All you keep saying is "no they blocked it ur rong fallacyfallacyfallacy" but you won't make any actual fucking points.  Why?  The bullets are clearly faster than the blades.  Blocking it by anticipating it is 100% plausible.  Yet you won't accept it because it goes against your point.

Are you *trying* to look arrogant?


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Supertails said:


> Are you *trying* to look arrogant?



No, I just actually remember the circumstances of their bullet feats, they bullet timed.


----------



## Supertails (Apr 30, 2009)

....wow.  That was a good argument.

With no proof.

....yeah, you basically just posted "no they bulet-timed it ur rong" again.

I'm starting to think you're a troll.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

Charcan said:


> You mention two fictions with different presentation styles who otherwise have the same kind of feats. Guess what is priority as far as presenting evidence.



No, I compared two weapons from the same fiction -_- Sephiroth's sword and a bullet. They are both operating under the same presentation style, and thus are scaled the same. They are operating in the same units, and in those units, the bullets show themselves to be faster. There is no getting around this. No matter how they tilt the camera or play with time filters, Sephiroth will never hit a target faster than a bullet does. Ever. At all. It's not some optical illusion like you claim it to be, it's just Sephiroth being too slow. Period. End of sentence. Other stuff.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Supertails said:


> ....wow.  That was a good argument.
> 
> With no proof.



I just went over it earlier, no need to do it again. Even Referee conceeded to me about Kadaj dodging bullets from a concealed weapon while standing in place without his sword, Cloud also deflecting individual bullets from an opponent that wasn't close to him while also fighting a superspeedster at close range.



> I'm starting to think you're a troll.



So, you try to refute blatant feats with a logical fallacy and mentioning a possible explanation for them without addressing if that's how it actually happened in the movie, while my requests for feats or canon info go unanswered about the speed of those beams and Link not needing to breathe at all or being able to do anything in space, and I'm a troll when I wasn't even the one who resorted to insults in these last posts. Sure, tell yourself that.

Referee, learn what the style over substance fallacy is, you're just repeating it each and every post.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

*wikis it*

Oh, you mean the thing you've been doing to me? Where, for example, you won't accept my presentation of Link vs all the dangers of space travel because of how it's structured (that is, with those dangers not all being combined into one specific form) rather than accepting it based on its core content? That's what the Style over Substance Fallacy is, good sir. It has nothing to do with your beloved clever camerawork.


----------



## Supertails (Apr 30, 2009)

> Link not needing to breathe at all or being able to do anything in space


I'm guessing you still refuse to accept the rock argument, then.  Since apparently you think it's possible to breathe inside a solid rock.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

Oh, and BTW, I never said Link could move in space. He wouldn't have to. He'd just need to sit around watching Sephiroth suffocate and explode from the safety of the Magic Cape.

Though now that I think about it, he could probably teleport with Farore's Wind, or phase himself into a world that isn't destroyed with the Moon Pearl. Because I doubt Sephy's Meteor blew up Darkworld.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Referee said:


> *wikis it*
> 
> Oh, you mean the thing you've been doing to me? Where, for example, you won't accept my presentation of Link vs all the dangers of space travel because of how it's structured (that is, with those dangers not all being combined into one specific form) rather than accepting it based on its core content? That's what the Style over Substance Fallacy is, good sir. It has nothing to do with your beloved clever camerawork.



It's not the same to reject blatant feats (bullet timing) because of the narrative style, to not accept Link being able to do something he's never shown to (since you didn't give me feats for it):



> The second form of the style over substance fallacy occurs when someone prefers one entity over another due to the way it is presented, as opposed to any actual facts.
> 
> Example: "In DBZ, all the battles have flashy afterimages, speed lines, blurs, and other effects. This obviously means that they're faster than the Silver Surfer, who rarely ever leaves afterimages or has any of those effects in his comic."
> 
> This argument simply takes the way the material is presented as objective evidence, even though there are no true facts attached to it and it just a matter of drawing style.





Supertails said:


> I'm guessing you still refuse to accept the rock argument, then.  Since apparently you think it's possible to breathe inside a solid rock.



I'm guessing my request for feats of Link being able to do what Referee claimed he could do will still go unanswered. How long did he canonically go without air, without gameplay mechanics anyway? I know a character who did it an hour in extreme conditions no sweat, and I'd never claim he'd survive in space.


----------



## Supertails (Apr 30, 2009)

> I'm guessing my request for feats of Link being able to do what Referee claimed he could do will still go unanswered. How long did he canonically go without air, without gameplay mechanics anyway? I know a character who did it an hour in extreme conditions no sweat, and I'd never claim he'd survive in space.


Aren't you _supposed_ to argue using gameplay mechanics here?  Because if you had infinite magic in the game, you could stay inside that rock-thing as long as you wanted.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 30, 2009)

Space. The final frontier.

Question. How exactly would Sephiroth go about destroying the planet? And don't say Meteor because it is so ridiculously slow it's not even funny.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Supertails said:


> Aren't you _supposed_ to argue using gameplay mechanics here?  Because if you had infinite magic in the game, you could stay inside that rock-thing as long as you wanted.



As far as the OBD generally goes, gameplay mechanics aren't accepted, and the OP didn't even specify they could be used to determine how strong they can be measured to be, just that they had their stuff, which can be presented as canon evidence (that's important too, just because you could kill everybody and soak many ammo clips in MGS 4 didn't mean Snake actually did it) in cutscenes/dialogue etc, just like the summon of AC.

I'm just mainly arguing that Sephiroth is faster than Link through demonstrable feats, and requesting feats for Link being able to do some stuff he was claimed to.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Apr 30, 2009)

So... Referee's basic arguments:
- Sephiroth is slow because I can see him, and bullets are not bullets because they don't do lethal damage.
- Link will still somehow get Magic Cape on before getting gutted, bladebeamed, telekinetically crushed, or burnt to ash by Sephiroth. Despite the massive speed advantage Sephiroth has.
- Link can't damage Sephiroth, but is going stand there for 84 years and prod Sephiroth with his puny little toothpick. Of course, Sephiroth can float there and spam Curaga and Esuna until the end of time, since he's immortal, but what the hell.



Onomatopoeia said:


> Space. The final frontier.
> 
> Question. How exactly would Sephiroth go about destroying the planet? And don't say Meteor because it is so ridiculously slow it's not even funny.



He has all the time in the world. Sephiroth is immortal, and was effectively casting Meteor, stopping Holy, and telekinetically crushing the entire FFVII party at the same time. Which goes to show it's not actually that slow, but rather that Sephiroth had separated his power what, eleven ways?


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 30, 2009)

Sephiroth has telekinesis? Trippy.



> prod Sephiroth with his puny little toothpick.



That's uncalled for.


----------



## Supertails (Apr 30, 2009)

Wow.  You like twisting words, huh?  Lemme help you here, since it seems you need it.



> So... Referee's basic arguments:
> - Sephiroth is slow because I can see him, and bullets are not bullets because they don't do lethal damage.


No, he never said Sephy was slow.  He said he was slower than the bullets being fired at him.

And no, he never said they weren't bullets, he said they're pretty obviously weaker bullets than usual because people can tank damage from them like it's nothing.



> - Link will still somehow get Magic Cape on before getting gutted, bladebeamed, telekinetically crushed, or burnt to ash by Sephiroth. Despite the massive speed advantage Sephiroth has.


You apparently missed that it takes Link an instant to get that cape on.



> - Link can't damage Sephiroth, but is going stand there for 84 years and prod Sephiroth with his puny little toothpick. Of course, Sephiroth can float there and spam Curaga and Esuna until the end of time, since he's immortal, but what the hell.


Pretty sure Seph wouldn't do too well with a sword phased then materialized through his brain.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Apr 30, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Sephiroth has telekinesis? Trippy.



Yes he does, and even if you don't want to believe that, he knows every form of magic in FFVIIverse.



> That's uncalled for.



Relative to the Masamune? Everything's a puny little toothpick.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 30, 2009)

Saying the Master Sword is a puny little toothpick in comparison to Masamune is like saying Dr Strange is a puny wimp compared to Henry Pym.

Yes the Masamune is a powerful(if pointlessly large) weapon, but size isn't everything.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Supertails said:


> No, he never said Sephy was slow. He said he was slower than the bullets being fired at him.



Any difference, as far as him downplaying his speed by saying we can see him therefore anyone on our level of non-superhuman reactions would follow his movements in an OBD fight?

I guess the Silver Surfer is slower than Ichigo because the latter shows afterimages even in his slower incarnations while Surfer does not even when he's going as fast as he can.



> And no, he never said they weren't bullets, he said they're pretty obviously weaker bullets than usual because people can tank damage from them like it's nothing.



Who tanked them? These people better not be superhumans like the one who got punched through a building and went through a giant energy sphere from a summon without even closing his eyes, or the ones who survived many tribulations with him.



> You apparently missed that it takes Link an instant to get that cape on.



Based on what feats of speed or non-gameplay canon info will he be able to equip that given the starting distance, and that Sephiroth has no reason to not swing him around?



> Pretty sure Seph wouldn't do too well with a sword phased then materialized through his brain.



Has he done that against a target faster than himself?


----------



## Supertails (Apr 30, 2009)

> Any difference, as far as him downplaying their speed by saying we can see him therefore anyone on our level of speed would follow his movements?
> 
> I guess the Silver Surfer is slower than Ichigo because the latter shows afterimages even in his slower incarnations while Surfer does not.


You're absolutely missing the point.  They're from *two different shows*, while Sephy in AC and the bullets in AC were from the *same show*.  If the Silver Surfer was in Bleach, and Ichigo was shown to move faster, then *yes*, he would be faster.  But they're *not in the same show*.



> Who tanked them? These people better not be superhumans like the one who got punched through a building or the ones who survived many tribulations with him.


Seeing as Aeris can be stabbed once and killed rather easily, yet a bullet does next to nothing other than hurt her a bit, I think it's pretty safe to say the bullets suck pretty bad.



> Based on what feats of speed or non-gameplay canon info will he be able to equip that given the starting distance?


There's, like, no non-gameplay info about the magic cape, since they game it was in hardly had any cutscenes anyway.  Not to mention that the cape was an optional item, so it wasn't *in* any cutscenes.  I don't think the game had any cutscenes of Link equipping an item, but I assume it'd happen just as instantly as it does when he normally equips it.



> Has he done that against a target faster than himself?


Skiboy was talking about Sephy just floating there healing himself when necessary.  It's not hard to hit a target that's not moving.  Which is what I was addressing there.

Speed don't do much when you don't move.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

> The second form of the style over substance fallacy occurs when someone prefers one entity over another due to the way it is presented, as opposed to any actual facts.
> 
> Example: "In DBZ, all the battles have flashy afterimages, speed lines, blurs, and other effects. This obviously means that they're faster than the Silver Surfer, who rarely ever leaves afterimages or has any of those effects in his comic."
> 
> This argument simply takes the way the material is presented as objective evidence, even though there are no true facts attached to it and it just a matter of drawing style.



Okay, you've managed to give an example comparing two different shows. Congrats. We're only talking about one show comparing to itself.
Imagine, for a minute, that you're watching a show about a 100 meter dasher. If he and his opponent are drawn realistically, then he'll run through the finish line first. If they add speed lines, then his lines will run through the finish line first. If they add afterimages, then his afterimage will be in front of his opponent's. Blurs? His blur will hit first. Slow-motion? He'll run through that ribbon in slow-mo.  Freezeframes? There's be a snapshot of him going through that finishing banner ahead of his opponent. Silhouettes? His silhouette will run through it first. Point is, he'll always be first, no matter what the style.

Sephiroth raced bullets repeatedly in Advent Children, and no matter what fancy styles one employs, he's always lost. Horribly. There is no excuse for this. This is not a comparison of two different shows, so you CANNOT use art style as an excuse, because whatever cheating art style supposedly gave Sephy an unfair win...the bullets were cheating and using it, too. I agree that two different verses can't be compared with things like speed lines, but when it's all from one verse (and moreover, all from the same work), then your excuse is lost. It's not a stylistic difference because there IS no difference between the styles. All there is is the cold, hard data, which says that it takes less time for a bullet to hit Cloud's sword than it does for Sephiroth's sword to. Significantly less. Like, almost none compared to 1-5 seconds for Sephiroth. Per strike.

Still, I'm glad we're actually getting somewhere now. You're finally fucking debating =D

~snip~
Of course Link will get his cape on before that. It's not like Sephiroth moves faster than a bullet, so he's got plenty of time.

Link will phase his sword through Sephy's chest and immediately into his heart. GG


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Supertails said:


> You're absolutely missing the point.  They're from *two different shows*, while Sephy in AC and the bullets in AC were from the *same show*.  If the Silver Surfer was in Bleach, and Ichigo was shown to move faster, then *yes*, he would be faster.  But they're *not in the same show*.



It was tried to argue against AC by comparing it to different possible fictional portrayals as well. Neo sure didn't show speeds I couldn't follow with my eyes when fighting at his best ever despite the contradiction of earlier using the BT effect that AC didn't feel the need to use while performing the same kind of feats, which are what matters most in order not to fall in the style over substance fallacy.



> Seeing as Aeris can be stabbed once and killed rather easily, yet a bullet does next to nothing other than hurt her a bit, I think it's pretty safe to say the bullets suck pretty bad.



If she were human to begin with, and stabbed by a street mugger instead of the superhuman legendary soldier with a sword that was said to be only wieldable by him, you'd have a point.



> There's, like, no non-gameplay info about the magic cape, since they game it was in hardly had any cutscenes anyway.  Not to mention that the cape was an optional item, so it wasn't *in* any cutscenes.  I don't think the game had any cutscenes of Link equipping an item, but I assume it'd happen just as instantly as it does when he normally equips it.



Unless you can prove he has some sort of claimed-to-be-instantaneous (take that lighspeeders) uber-magical effect that auto-equips on him everything he thinks of using, instead of say, grabbing a shield and secure it to his arm like a normal warrior, then I don't buy the instantaneous claim at all.



> Skiboy was talking about Sephy just floating there healing himself when necessary.  It's not hard to hit a target that's not moving.  Which is what I was addressing there.
> 
> Speed don't do much when you don't move.



While Sephiroth doesn't have a need to not move/attack if he sees his slower opponent starting to do the same, Sephiroth will just blitz him to begin with due to bloodlust and no PIS. Even taking his time Cloud only tagged him by activating a speed powerup.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 30, 2009)

> If she were human to begin with, and



Aeris isn't Human?


> sword that was said to be only wieldable by him


You say "Only wieldable by him" as if the Masamune were some sort of Infinity Plus One Over 9000 supersword of doom rather than just an overly large sword that only Sephiroth has the strength to wield effectively.



> While Sephiroth doesn't have a need to not move/attack if he sees his slower opponent starting to do the same



Bearing in mind that Link would be invisible at such time as he begins to attack.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Referee said:


> Okay, you've managed to give an example comparing two different shows. Congrats. We're only talking about one show comparing to itself.



Your focusing on the style of AC as opposed to the feats they perform, demanding a different animation style like other possible fictional portrayals (just like one would demand Surfer to match eastern drawing styles to claim he moves at their speeds), makes your claim an irreconcilable fallacy and your tl;dr rants won't change that.



> Sephiroth raced bullets repeatedly in Advent Children, and no matter what fancy styles one employs, he's always lost. Horribly. There is no excuse for this.


----------



## Densoro (Apr 30, 2009)

If you hadn't tl;dr'd my rant, you'd see that it's got you beat. But if you can't be arsed to read my full fucking post because you know it'll beat you, then fine.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Apr 30, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Aeris isn't Human?



The whole party is superhuman, but Aeris is also specifically of a different species.



> You say "Only wieldable by him" as if the Masamune were some sort of Infinity Plus One Over 9000 supersword of doom rather than just an overly large sword that only Sephiroth has the strength to wield effectively.



KE = MV^2



> Bearing in mind that Link would be invisible at such time as he begins to attack.



And Sephiroth is floating in the stratosphere casting Meteor.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Apr 30, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Aeris isn't Human?



She was the last of some weird race with notable power and prominent member of the superhuman cast. She can't be called a regular human.



> You say "Only wieldable by him" as if the Masamune were some sort of Infinity Plus One Over 9000 supersword of doom rather than just an overly large sword that only Sephiroth has the strength to wield effectively.



That's what the story tells us about it and no one else wielded it AFAIK.



> Bearing in mind that Link would be invisible at such time as he begins to attack.



Would he even survive the initial blitz(es) in order to start attacking? Doesn't matter, what with flight and casting.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 30, 2009)

> She was the last of some weird race with notable power. She can't be called a regular human



Notable power that failed to make her at all spectacular in comparison to (say) Cloud.

Did this notable power enhance her durability to any noticable degree, thus making it that much more shocking that Sephiroth's mighty strength managed to pierce the unpiercable shield that was her skin?


----------



## Supertails (Apr 30, 2009)

> If she were human to begin with, and stabbed by a street mugger instead of the superhuman legendary soldier with a sword that was said to be only wieldable by him, you'd have a point.


Point is, unless she's made of metal, and possibly even then, any normal bullet would penetrate her skin, and as many as she's been hit with would be fatal.

But it's not.



> While Sephiroth doesn't have a need to not move/attack if he sees his slower opponent starting to do the same, Sephiroth will just blitz him to begin with due to bloodlust and no PIS. Even taking his time Cloud only tagged him by activating a speed powerup.


I think that, even without the insta-equip Link has in every game, he could still get a single *cape* before Sephy got there.  All he needs to do is be touching it, I'm pretty sure, so it's not hard to believe that he can get his hand to it in time.



> Your focusing on the style of AC as opposed to the feats they perform, demanding a different animation style like other possible fictional portrayals (just like one would demand Surfer to match eastern drawing styles to claim he moves at their speeds), makes your claim an irreconcilable fallacy and your tl;dr rants won't change that.


Ooh, that's great debating.  Tell him about how you tl;dr'd his post.  Nothing shows signs of a great debater as much as that.

All he said was that the bullets in AC were faster than Sephy in AC.

What's wrong with that?


----------



## Densoro (May 1, 2009)

Also, I love how you used the length (a part of the presentation) to toss it aside. Style over Substance Fallacy, anybody? >=3


----------



## skiboydoggy (May 1, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Notable power that failed to make her at all spectacular in comparison to (say) Cloud.



Highest magic stat in the game, and Great Gospel is an awesome limit break.



> Did this notable power enhance her durability to any noticable degree, thus making it that much more shocking that Sephiroth's mighty strength managed to pierce the unpiercable shield that was her skin?



She's a JRPG character. Aerith is obviously superhuman without any notable backstory boosting her, or is Emporio Iva going to be killed by bullets too, because apart from his Hormone Fruit he's an otherwise normal human?

And Sephiroth with the Masamune being incapable of matching bullet damage is just a stupid argument to run in the first place, especially if you have any knowledge of FFVII lore. It rips apart massive buildings for lulz.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

I imagine you'd be hard pressed to find someone who could claim Iva-san to be normal.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 1, 2009)

Supertails said:


> Point is, unless she's made of metal, and possibly even then, any normal bullet would penetrate her skin, and as many as she's been hit with would be fatal.
> 
> But it's not.



So, interesting Aerith tangent aside (lol Masamune not matching bullets), I repeat myself: who tanked these bullets? Someone non-superhuman? a regular street joe?



> I think that, even without the insta-equip Link has in every game, he could still get a single *cape* before Sephy got there.  All he needs to do is be touching it, I'm pretty sure, so it's not hard to believe that he can get his hand to it in time.



Without speed feats, I'm not buying it, given the default starting distance that only requires Sephiroth to swing his sword, not even move forward.



> Ooh, that's great debating.  Tell him about how you tl;dr'd his post.  Nothing shows signs of a great debater as much as that.



I actually read it, just said it was one of those long posts, it's just that it was the same old stuff that has nothing to do with actual feat tallying, followed by some nonsense about a character losing to another as if that makes him weak per se.



> All he said was that the bullets in AC were faster than Sephy in AC.
> 
> What's wrong with that?



That he goes on saying that Link, who has no speed feats like AC characters, will perform an action before Sephiroth.


----------



## Densoro (May 1, 2009)

> And Sephiroth with the Masamune being incapable of matching bullet damage is just a stupid argument to run in the first place, especially if you have any knowledge of FFVII lore. It rips apart massive buildings for lulz.



Kay, and ripping buildings is strength and sharpness. Not speed. The Hulk rips apart buildings for lulz, too, but put him in a race with The Flash. Go.


----------



## skiboydoggy (May 1, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> I imagine you'd be hard pressed to find someone who could claim Iva-san to be normal.


Genetically Homo Sapien... We think.


----------



## The World (May 1, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Yes the Masamune is a powerful(if pointlessly large) weapon, *but size isn't everything.*


*
*
Is that what you tell yourself when trying to get laid?


----------



## Densoro (May 1, 2009)

He has to, or else his ego will get half as inflated as skiboy's =D


----------



## Supertails (May 1, 2009)

Guy with average length who's great at sex > Guy with larger penis who's bad at sex

=D


----------



## The World (May 1, 2009)

Lol i like how i turned the topic around to penis measuring.

And Supertails keep telling yourself that. 

Sephiroth big sword > Link's tiny one.


----------



## Supertails (May 1, 2009)

hurhur i <3 how ur so original i nevr herd dat 1 b4

But anyways, back on topic....what the hell were we talking about?


----------



## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

It ain't the size of the ship but the motion of the ocean and the skill of the skipper. Not that I have any problems with size.


----------



## The World (May 1, 2009)

Supertails said:


> hurhur i <3 how ur so original i nevr herd dat 1 b4
> 
> But anyways, back on topic....what the hell were we talking about?



That Sephiroth kills Link with one swing of his mighty sword.

And yes i'm original hur hurrrp.


----------



## Dokiz1 (May 1, 2009)

according to FF7 Sephiroth has the capacity of destroying planets.

so Sephiroth > Link.? i gotta say yes.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

If Sephiroth had the capacity to destroy planets he wouldn't need the slow ass Meteor.


----------



## The World (May 1, 2009)

He still has the capacity to destroy a planet Ono slow or not.


----------



## Densoro (May 1, 2009)

Dokiz1 said:


> according to FF7 Sephiroth has the capacity of destroying planets.
> 
> so Sephiroth > Link.? i gotta say yes.



Don't see what good Meteor will do to an intangible person. It'll phase right through him, then he'll be floating in space watching Sephy choke, die, then explode in the vacuum of space. And he'd still have about 83 and a half days of intangibility left to float there. That's three months to get recovered.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

....you win this round, my friend.


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## skiboydoggy (May 1, 2009)

Meteor _is_ his capacity to destroy the planet. 
Takes forever to power up, and the Meteor itself is hardly fast, but it doesn't really matter against Link.

So has someone missed the bit where Sephiroth is immortal and part of the Lifestream? Again?


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## Densoro (May 1, 2009)

Except it does because he'll survive by virtue of intangibility while Sephiroth dies in space. GG


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## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

> Meteor is his capacity to destroy the planet.
> Takes forever to power up, and the Meteor itself is hardly fast, but it doesn't really matter against Link.



I refer you to my immediately preceding post. ^_^




> So has someone missed the bit where Sephiroth is immortal and part of the Lifestream?



Personally I always figured that that whole "destroying the planet" thing would remove that pesky Lifestream from the equation.


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## skiboydoggy (May 1, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Personally I always figured that that whole "destroying the planet" thing would remove that pesky Lifestream from the equation.



Good point. 
Still, Sephiroth hardly needs Meteor when he can just crush Link with a look.


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## Densoro (May 1, 2009)

CIS is on, Sephiroth never uses his TK =P


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## skiboydoggy (May 1, 2009)

Referee said:


> CIS is on, Sephiroth never uses his TK =P


Except he has. 
Especially when his enemy is merely peak human/slightly superhuman and unworthy. He only uses his sword on Cloud to torment him, but Link is not Cloud.


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## Densoro (May 1, 2009)

Could you post a scene where he's just crushed somebody with his mind?


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 1, 2009)

Referee said:


> Except it does because he'll survive by virtue of intangibility while Sephiroth dies in space. GG



Could you post a scene where Link did that?


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## Densoro (May 1, 2009)

Any time Link's cape-phased his way into an airtight structure. But of course you won't accept that, so I don't even know why I'm bothering =D


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 1, 2009)

That's a no then. Figures.


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## Densoro (May 1, 2009)

No, it's a yes that you're just too obstinate to accept =P But in Charcanese, yes, that's a no.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 1, 2009)

Referee said:


> No, it's a yes



No, when I give you this simple request:



Charcan said:


> Could you post a scene where Link did that?



And you fail to provide exactly that, you might as well have said no, instead of only mentioning some vague event that's probably just gameplay where Link could last a not given amount of time not breathing and then trying to apply it to him somehow surviving a planet busting attack with no feats for it and no proven way for Link to go anywhere or survive without nourishment or long-term lack of air.


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## Densoro (May 1, 2009)

But I did provide exactly that. See...Pop quiz. How much air's inside a complete solid? Here's a hint: none.
...
...
...Give up? The answer is none =/

You ask for feats of the cape outside of gameplay, but it only exists within gameplay. Only. Which is fine, because gameplay mechanics were allowed here, so you have no grounds on which to write them off. Gameplay or not, it happened, so accept it and just move on already.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 1, 2009)

Referee said:


> But I did provide exactly that.



No, I'm just seeing a bunch of words about an airtight structure that doesn't specify any timeframe, not the exact scene I asked if you could post. Proof that Link can travel in space, live without food and live without air for any extended amount of time, you have never answered this.



> You ask for feats of the cape outside of gameplay, but it only exists within gameplay. Only. Which is fine, because gameplay mechanics were allowed here



When? I've seen the OP and it doesn't say that, at all. Since you aren't the OP, why should I take you seriously?



> it happened



Unless you can prove it happened canonically, it didn't, just like Big Boss didn't canonically yank an arrow off his forehead just because you can do it in gameplay.


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## dark messiah verdandi (May 1, 2009)

oh my sephiroth, this thread has once again been derailed and degraded into redundancy. let me clear shtuff up.

1. the "space" race.
 to whom ever decided this was a good counter, put it this way, once link is in space with his nifty cape, how the hell is he going to move? he is in a vacuum, massless, and incapable of creating thrust. if breathing is a non-issue, then what about age? link is not immortal, while sephiroth who is composed of a virus, isn't TRUELY a living being. just an existing one. he can shapeshift, and does not age at all. also, as an "undead" virus the whole needing air thing? moot. he has even said that escaping his mortal shell made him stronger, and this is because he does not need the things a living organism does. he is a concience + super alien virus + spiritual energy. there is no life there.

this is a war of attrition, and link is going to loose. if he tries to take his cape of before reaching an oxygen rich enviroment, he dies.

2. faster than a speeding bullet?
can sephiroth block bullets? yes. can sephiroth outrun a bullet? no. does he have to? hell no. sephiroth is damn fast, but supersonic? not a feat he has shown so I say nope.
the thing is people here think disapearing from the eyes sight is a super sonic ONLY feat.
that is stupidity. after about two hundred mph, the eye cannot track close movement any longer. that is about 1/3 of the speed it takes to be "super sonic"

the general rule with this is... if you break the speed barrier, you are super sonic. anything less, and it is just drivel.

the thing is, sephiroth can teleport at will. , why run when you can 'port?!

3. felt like a bee sting.

okay, someone was talking about bullets being fatal and not realistic in rpg's.
to them I say:
1. rpg's are NEVER realistic. even relatively mundane campaigns are unrealistic in things like physics.

2. did you consider the caliber of the bullets??? probally not. 22 caliburs are far less dangerous than a 44. magnum shell aren't they. I have seen people riddled with twenty two calibur bullets and survive. the stopping power of anything below 9mm are rediculous.

3. did you consider the character's background?
half of the cast are actually not humans anymore. humanoids, yes. cloud went through a precedure that irradiated him in refined spiritual energy and was injected with the mother of all retroviruses. vincent, a shapeshifter. red xii is a magical animal! 
also this game makes use of the "charles atlas superpower" trope. if you train hard enough, chalenges from before seem like nothing.

so, now can we talk about something relevant? like how link could even really damage sephiroth?

also that infinite money garbage was stupid. link would have ALL rupees, not some recharging amount of money.  he would simply have all types of currency. all can be reduced to one.


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## skiboydoggy (May 1, 2009)

Searching for FFVII feats is annoying. Nobody posts videos of that stuff, except for Let's Play FFVII, which takes forever to load.


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## tituspullo (May 1, 2009)

Well, since the OP never cleared up assumptions, I'll list what would happen given different sets.  Basic OP assumption of both sides having all equips/materia and strongest stats remains for all scenarios.

Gameplay mechs on - Link's best move is to instantly open the menu which has the added effect of freezing space/time and letting him equip etc.  Seph's best move is sneakattack + hades which results in a helpless link, afterwhich he spams steal until he takes all of links items (most importantly fairies), then he casts poison until link dies.  Advantage - seph.  Under gameplay mechs, opening link's menu takes a button click, but anyone who has played FF knows sneakattack doesn't give you a chance to click any buttons before the attached action is taken.  Link has no inherent defense against Hades.

Pre-equip - lets say link comes with the cape pre-equipped.  Lets also assume the cape grants immunity to EVERYTHING short of reality warping powers.  Seph's only chance to win is to outlast the cape's duration.  Not too hard though - final attack + phoenix, final attack + MP absorb + flare targeted at self.  Whenever he dies to link's sword or arrows or w/e, he casts phoenix to raise himself, and flare on himself linked to MP absorb to go back to full MP.  Unless link also has some loophole for infinite MP to sustain the cape with, at some point he runs out of items, it drops and he eats a Hades and loses.

Non-gameplay mechs - uh, seph is a much much MUCH stronger swordsman than link.  Much.  Without gameplay loopholes and magical item tricks, link has 0 chance.

Link gets full triforce - I'm not 100% on the extent of the triforce's power, but IIRC it grants any wish, so I guess link wins this one by default.


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## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

> seph is a much much MUCH stronger swordsman than link. Much.



Link's got Golden Gloves which makes his strength > Sephy's. 


> Unless link also has some loophole for infinite MP to sustain the cape with



Chatteau Romanai. 


> final attack + MP absorb + flare targeted at self



A: I can't seem to recall it being possible to set an auto-attack to hit yourself, correct me if I'm wrong.
B: MP Absorb really seems redundant. He's absorbing MP from himself? What'll that do other than waste time. After the cost of the spell, he absorbs mp and the mp he just absorbed goes right back to him. 

Sooo...say he's got 50 mp and he casts a 20mp cost spell on himself. The spell also absorbs 15 mp. So that means that he goes down to 30 mp, then down to 15 and then back up to 30.

Not only will he still run out of MP he'll run out faster because he's wasting MP on pointlessly casting Flare.


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## skiboydoggy (May 1, 2009)

Sephiroth has infinite MP. 
And Link with Golden Gloves being plain stronger than Sephiroth? I find that hard to believe.


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## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

Then why's he need to pointlessly cast Flare on himself in a futile attempt to refill his mp?


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## Linkaro (May 1, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> Sephiroth has infinite MP.
> And Link with Golden Gloves being plain stronger than Sephiroth? I find that hard to believe.



welll...a golden glove can make you lift a tower...not to meation what happen if Link upgrade the Master Sword to a Golden sword.  KY-YAH!


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## skiboydoggy (May 1, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Then why's he need to pointlessly cast Flare on himself in a futile attempt to refill his mp?


He... Wouldn't, honestly.


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## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

> And Link with Golden Gloves being plain stronger than Sephiroth? I find that hard to believe.



Has Sephy got better strength feats than GG Link?


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## skiboydoggy (May 1, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Has Sephy got better strength feats than GG Link?


Not without his magic, but that's not important since Sephiroth will use his magic and do things like destroy steel buildings with a flick of his wrist.


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## Stroev (May 1, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> Not without his magic, but that's not important since Sephiroth will use his magic and do things like destroy steel buildings with a flick of his wrist.


evidence plz .

And if this is all Link's then CD-i rapes here. He's omnipotent after all.


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## tituspullo (May 1, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Link's got Golden Gloves which makes his strength > Sephy's.
> 
> 
> Chatteau Romanai.
> ...



Stronger swordsman, not brute strength.  Seph is a lot faster, has far more battle experience, has a sword with longer reach... you know what just go watch the adventchildren fight.

MP absorb doesn't drain MP from target, it gives you MP based on damage dealt.  So flare for 9999 dmg would give like 1000 MP or something.  Although as someone has mentioned, there are incarnations of seph with infinite mana, this setup is just in case.

Chatteau Romanai only lasts a set period of time, eventually link runs out and phases back in.  Seph on the other hand has infinite mana and always auto-rez from death.


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## Emperor Joker (May 1, 2009)

tituspullo said:


> Chatteau Romanai only lasts a set period of time, eventually link runs out and phases back in.  Seph on the other hand has infinite mana and always auto-rez from death.



This fight is not going to last three days, if anything it's going to end in a draw.


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## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

> you know what just go watch the adventchildren fight.



I did it was expectedly dull and uneventful.


> So flare for 9999 dmg would give like 1000 MP or something.



Who's to say that it would do that much damage to Sephina?


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## tgre (May 1, 2009)

Here's how it goes:

Instant fight starts, Link opens menu (first move + freeze time effect)

Insta-cape + Chateau Romani.

Intagivisible.

Master Sword to the face.

And any other items to hinder Sephiroth.

He can teleport where ever he wants but Link's going to have his cape on w/ infinite MP before Sephiroth even lands a blow.


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## The World (May 1, 2009)

Sephiroth can do the same DERP DERP. It's called have ATB on wait and then attack. Not that it matters since game mechanics don't count and all Sephiroth has to do is flick his wrist and Link becomes bloody puss stain.


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## tgre (May 1, 2009)

This is why it's bad to argue against someone who has no real argument except: "HAHA HE FLICKS HIS WRIST AND WORLD BLOWS UP HAHA DERP DERP"


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## dark messiah verdandi (May 1, 2009)

it seems that you did not properly read the whole thread before you gave your opinion.
for the most part, I have been destroying this fight, and came up with some damn solid strategies. most agree with my

sneak attack:hades + pre-emptive combo leading into pale horse and heartless angel.

the rest was just petty arguing.

ps. derp derp.


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## The World (May 1, 2009)

tGre teh Disleksik said:


> This is why it's bad to argue against someone who has no real argument except: "HAHA HE FLICKS HIS WRIST AND WORLD BLOWS UP HAHA DERP DERP"





And Sephiroth doesn't have to blow up the world with a flick of his wrist, he just needs to cut Link into pieces with one of his skyscraping busting bladebeams. DAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW


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## Darth Nihilus (May 1, 2009)

tGre teh Disleksik said:


> This is why it's bad to argue against someone who has no real argument except: "HAHA HE FLICKS HIS WRIST AND WORLD BLOWS UP HAHA DERP DERP"



Oh, this is fucking gold


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## Onomatopoeia (May 1, 2009)

I stand by this. 



Onomatopoeia said:


> Link is using the Mirror Shield. While Sephiroth is busy admiring his lucious locks and bishounen good looks in Link's shield, Link clones himself with the Four Sword, sneaks up to Sephiroth and turns Sephiroth into Sephina, if you know what I mean.


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## dark messiah verdandi (May 1, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> I stand by this.



so... link actually has the godly power to turn men into hermaphrodites with one swipe of the master sword???

.

this battle ends in futanari hentai


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## skiboydoggy (May 2, 2009)

So we're talking all equipment from all games here, not game mechanics. DAWWWWWWWWW.


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## Supertails (May 2, 2009)

Jesus Christ, was this thread taken over by elementary-schoolers while I was gone?  ._.


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## skiboydoggy (May 2, 2009)

Supertails said:


> Jesus Christ, was this thread taken over by elementary-schoolers while I was gone?  ._.


What? You think you were keeping this thread in check or something? Get off your high horse. This thread was owned by elementary schoolers the moment the Magic Cape was instantaneous.


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## Stroev (May 2, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> Magic Cape was instantaneous.


It is.

Unless he used it in a cutscene, or had all kinds of showings of actual feats, then gameplay can be ignored.


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## Supertails (May 2, 2009)

> What? You think you were keeping this thread in check or something? Get off your high horse.


Twisting words around is fun, isn't it?

I can imply a thread got stupider without using my nonexistant ego.  But you can't read one thing I say without trying to twist it against me.

So get off *your* high horse, buddy.



> This thread was owned by elementary schoolers the moment the Magic Cape was instantaneous.


I think Survivor addressed this one pretty well.


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## tituspullo (May 2, 2009)

Doesn't matter if cape is near-instant, if it's not pre-equipped it loses to sneakattack because sneakattack hits before everything by definition.  Even if it IS pre-equipped, seph has mechanics for infinite durability while link runs out of milk eventually.

Flare is a defense-ignoring 100% hitrate spell with very high base damage.  With seph's strongest stats it would definitely do 9999 dmg.

Seph wins in all cases, except if link has full triforce, an omnipotent force.


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## skiboydoggy (May 2, 2009)

Survivor said:


> It is.
> 
> Unless he used it in a cutscene, or had all kinds of showings of actual feats, then gameplay can be ignored.



Except that's not how it works. We don't assume Zero always slashes in the exact same combo every single time he fights, and we don't assume Ryu has to duck and do a little forward movement before he fires Hadoken. We know Link is mostly a normal person with normal abilities but with incredible wits, guts, and some broken items. Occam's razor dictates that he puts his cloaks on like everyone else, magical or not. Regardless, even if activation is instant, his speed of thought is still slower than Sephiroth's, meaning Sephiroth flicks his wrist and pulps Link with a Bladebeam.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 2, 2009)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> it seems that you did not properly read the whole thread before you gave your opinion.
> for the most part, I have been destroying this fight, and came up with some damn solid strategies. most agree with my
> 
> sneak attack:hades + pre-emptive combo leading into pale horse and heartless angel.
> ...



This. If it's a regular feat-based fight on their own like usual, Link gets gutted because of not having better speed feats than Sephiroth and not having enough of a starting distance from him to do anything. If it's a regular fight with them not having anything fancy equipped at the beginning (OP doesn't say the contrary) then the same happens, bloodlusted Sephiroth doesn't give him a chance to do it to begin with. If gameplay mechanics are included, then Verdandi already mentioned the pre-emptiveness that by nature takes priority over any Link-related action happening at the start of the match like intangibility activation ("allows you to enter commands immediately at the start of battle while enemies must endure a full wait period before their first turn") then status effects that Link has no resistance to, Heartless Angel ruining the cape usage, Sephiroth then also being able to fly/teleport until he's not even a visible point in the sky, summon Meteor and rain spells down to pass the time in the meantime while also using his mental powers. In a war of attrition, there's no proof Link can outlast Sephiroth who spends years crystalized without food, water or air when in a weaker form.



Survivor said:


> It is.
> 
> Unless he used it in a cutscene, or had all kinds of showings of actual feats, then gameplay can be ignored.



Gameplay mechanics>>>>>>feats at the lack of the latter? That's not how I remember the OBD usually going when it comes to gameplay mechanics:

Judging from their sig, what does the user above like?


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## mystictrunks (May 2, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> Except that's not how it works. We don't assume Zero always slashes in the exact same combo every single time he fights,


You learn different combos in the game.



> and we don't assume Ryu has to duck and do a little forward movement before he fires Hadoken.


You don't have to duck or move forward to do a hadoken.



> We know Link is mostly a normal person with normal abilities but with incredible wits, guts, and some broken items. Occam's razor dictates that he puts his cloaks on like everyone else, magical or not. Regardless, even if activation is instant, his speed of thought is still slower than Sephiroth's, meaning Sephiroth flicks his wrist and pulps Link with a Bladebeam.


Link regularly does super human things before acquiring magic items in  Zelda games.


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## skiboydoggy (May 3, 2009)

mystictrunks said:


> You learn different combos in the game.



You learn EX-Skills, your combo in MMZ is always forward slash, backwards slash, overhead slash. At least, discounting that one game where you could change your form, which occasionally modified your combo.



> You don't have to duck or move forward to do a hadoken.



I was referring to the V > + P motion. I guess a better example would be Balrog not having to stand in place for half a second before doing any of his special punches.



> Link regularly does super human things before acquiring magic items in  Zelda games.



He's _supposed_ to be normal, in the Captain America mold. In any case, that doesn't change my point that he has to put on a cloak just like everyone else.


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## Densoro (May 3, 2009)

*is back and has a new idea, so it's time to get back to the speed debate =D*

It seems to be an accepted OBD rule that the Disney characters present in KH are no different from their canon selves, statistically speaking. Mulan moves as fast as Sora on a regular basis. Mulan is not a bullet-timer. Sephiroth is just a little bit faster than Sora, who moves only as fast as Mulan, a non-bullet-timer.

The notion of Sora not bullet-timing is supported in that the glowy bricks that he blocks move slower than the shots from a pirate's gun in PotC world. He can only block the latter by aimdodging; the Reaction Command appears when you hear the gun cock, but disappears after you hear the blast of it firing.

If Sora isn't a bullet timer and Sephy is only slightly faster than him, then Sephy shouldn't be anywhere near bullet speed. This agrees with the theory that Charcan's been refusing to accept on false pretenses (when the fact of the matter is that, style aside, if Sephiroth was faster than bullets, then his speed feats would be better than any gun's).


----------



## Seijun Togiretogire (May 4, 2009)

Sephy himself I despise.

The Masamune is badass though.


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## tituspullo (May 4, 2009)

Survivor said:


> Link can't run out of milk, and there are other ways to be invulnerable to damage.



Explain.  AFAIK no zelda game has been exploitive enough to have an infinite loophole for items/magic/hp etc.  Eventually your cape/gold armor/whatever runs out of fuel, because you can only carry so many items.

Referee - no one cares about your obsession with speed or whatever, lets try to stay focused on who would win using their best strats, which is clearly outlast in both cases.


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## Stroev (May 4, 2009)

tituspullo said:


> Explain.  AFAIK no zelda game has been exploitive enough to have an infinite loophole for items/magic/hp etc.  Eventually your cape/gold armor/whatever runs out of fuel, because you can only carry so many items.
> 
> Referee - no one cares about your obsession with speed or whatever, lets try to stay focused on who would win using their best strats, which is clearly outlast in both cases.


Romani Chateau provides infinite magic. That plus Magic cape or Magic armor make eternal invincibilty.

I also forgot Link had the blue cane in A Link to the Past that has a laser rotate around him. Just throwing it out there.


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## Densoro (May 4, 2009)

tituspullo said:


> Referee - no one cares about your obsession with speed or whatever, lets try to stay focused on who would win using their best strats, which is clearly outlast in both cases.



Actually, everybody cares about speed, since they keep wanking Sephy's up to say that he wins the match faster than a bullet. So yeah, that was a worthless thing to write. How about rather than insulting my argument, you debate it, yeah?
Especially since these best strats that you insist I use (and I insist I use them, too) hinge on Link being fast enough (or his opponent being slow enough) to put them into play.


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## ScreenXSurfer (May 4, 2009)

Has this been brought up? Link removed


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## Densoro (May 4, 2009)

Yep. The same gameplay mechanics that make it possible also state that it doesn't do particularly significant damage. Since all the planets come back at the end and it doesn't do 9999 damage.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 5, 2009)

Referee said:


> It seems to be an accepted OBD rule



It's also accepted in the OBD that you don't dismiss blatant feats because of the way they are presented as opposed to the actual feats, enough so that this is part of the thread detailing the wrong ways to argue that is stickied in the dome. You can cry "style aside" all you want in light of that.



> if Sephiroth was faster than bullets, then his speed feats would be better than any gun's).



....I've talked about this several times now. He's like a somewhat faster Batgirl or Daredevil, but with flight, more superhuman agility and teleportation as far as speed helpers. Another standard accepted in the OBD:



> Characters with superhuman reaction times sometimes don't have superhuman movement speed



As an example, Thanos doesn't have FTL movement feats over big distances like the Silver Surfer therefore he's probably incapable of it (outside of his teleportation), yet his reflexes allow him to react to him to fend off a FTL speedblitz. It's the same with AC characters and bullets (even while fending off Loz who had flashy movement speed over small distances yet Cloud had the reflexes to cope with both him and several bullets). Oh and nitpicking about style like you fallaciously do, Thanos didn't even have speed lines, blurriness or afterimages in his arm when reacting to that, it looked totally like a peak human feat at best, yet just try to downplay Thanos' feat in the OBD and see how it goes for you.

While Sephiroth showed himself in Dissidia capable of raining enough invisible sword swings that Cloud couldn't cope just as he did with equally invisible bullets. So your "they ALWAYS have looked slow" style-fallacious argument holds no weight after all.

Unless Link has similar feats, he gets blitzed by a spam of long-range shooting building cutting blade swings as soon as the fight starts. And your speed argument is moot anyway, since Sephiroth also has flight and teleportation (which he performed at the same time in a cutscene) on top of his speed.



Survivor said:


> Instant.



That speed is not claimed by the game AFAIK. Using that kind of mechanic, Sephiroth has an equally automatic one solely built and named around the fact that it happens before over other gameplay mechanics take place, plus Heartless Angel drains magic to 0. This is just going in circles.



> 1)People seem to be using game mechanics here, and hell, even set up strategies around it.



That doesn't mean it's valid, when people bring filler to DB debates they can be, and are, called on it often. Also Pokemon.



> 2)Did OP state everything was allowed or imply mechanics?



He didn't specify mechanics, just seemed to imply equipment. Not the same thing necessarily.



> 3)Wasn't Seph in a hybernative state when he was crystalized?



That's why I said weaker form, and his immortality was better detailed earlier.



Survivor said:


> Romani Chateau provides infinite magic.



Wasn't that only for a certain amount of time in-game? He can only hope for a stalemate anyway, when compromising to discuss gameplay, since he can't be claimed to be immortal like Sephiroth who probably has invulnerability mechanics as well. This is just going in circles.



Referee said:


> Actually, everybody cares about speed



Actually not everybody has so far. :nitpick:



> they keep wanking Sephy's up



You aren't one to talk about wanking after claiming that Link's arrows were absolute zero just because of a no-limits fallacy claim about their being able to douse any flame. Tell me, would they freeze the flames on the head of Marvel Surtur?


----------



## Densoro (May 5, 2009)

Charcan said:


> It's also accepted in the OBD that you don't dismiss blatant feats because of the way they are presented as opposed to the actual feats, enough so that this is part of the thread detailing the wrong ways to argue that is stickied in the dome. You can cry "style aside" all you want in light of that.



Shame I'm not dismissing it based on presentation or style. You're just not getting the distinction through your head.



> ....I've talked about this several times now. He's like a somewhat faster Batgirl or Daredevil, but with flight, more superhuman agility and teleportation as far as speed helpers. Another standard accepted in the OBD:



I get the difference between reaction speed and movement speed. It's skiboy that doesn't, since he's trying to say that Sephiroth will slash at Link with the whole of his REACTION SPEED. Even if he has reacted to individual airbourne bullets, his ACTION SPEED is significantly lower.

Also, one crux to your whole gripe about style vs substance is that you KEEP COMPARING TWO DIFFERENT SHOWS. "Thanos didn't have DBZ speed lines," "Silver Surfer didn't move faster than perception like a Bleach character," etc. But I'm not comparing Sephy to LoZ speed standards. I'm comparing him to Square speed standards, which is fair, because he's FROM SQUARE. "Square's rules say that anything that moves as fast as a bullet or faster is impossible to see."
"BUT THATS NOT FAIR THANOS DOESNT MOVE FASTER THAN THE EYE CAN SEE AND NEITHER DOES SURFER OR HUMAN TORCH DONT DOWNPLAY FEATS ACROSS UNIVERSES."
Okay, I won't. But playing by HIS OWN HOMELAND'S RULES, Sephiroth's not as fast as bullets. Ergo, aimdodge.




> While Sephiroth showed himself in Dissidia capable of raining enough invisible sword swings that Cloud couldn't cope just as he did with equally invisible bullets. So your "they ALWAYS have looked slow" style-fallacious argument holds no weight after all.



Now we're getting somewhere, you're finally thinking EG rather than bashing one source into the problem until it somehow breaks through.
As I remember it, Dissidia-Sephy's multiswings had white motion lines. Unless we're thinking of different attacks. Got a link?



> Unless Link has similar feats, he gets blitzed by a spam of long-range shooting building cutting blade swings as soon as the fight starts. And your speed argument is moot anyway, since Sephiroth also has flight and teleportation (which he performed at the same time in a cutscene) on top of his speed.



He's dodged cannonfire. No matter what can be said for the _presentation_ of the cannons in the game, the fact of the matter is that cannonballs fire fucking fast. Like, faster-than-eye fast.
If your bit on the presentation of gunshots holds any water, then so does that. Either Sephy's slower than you'd like or Link's faster.
Also, Link can take bombs and stone-exploding claymore slashes to the face *shrug*




> Wasn't that only for a certain amount of time in-game? *He can only hope for a stalemate anyway*, when compromising to discuss gameplay, since he can't be claimed to be immortal like Sephiroth who probably has invulnerability mechanics as well. This is just going in circles.



Except with Magic Cape active, he can phase his weapon through Sephy's bodily defenses (magic, armor, skin, bone, muscle) and directly into his squishy internal organs.



> You aren't one to talk about wanking after claiming that Link's arrows were absolute zero just because of a no-limits fallacy claim about their being able to douse any flame. Tell me, would they freeze the flames on the head of Marvel Surtur?



No idea, but that's a red herring anyway. But things get fuzzy when you use "ALWAYS WORKS =D" powers across universes. "ALWAYS PIERCES" vs "NEVER GETS PIERCED" and the like. So it comes down to whose guarantee is established by a more powerful source. I know nothing about Surtur (don't follow comics), but for what it's worth, the guarantee behind the Ice Arrows is backed by three creation-level she-deities. I can't say whether that'd win or not, but whatever.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 5, 2009)

> I get the difference between reaction speed and movement speed. It's skiboy that doesn't, since he's trying to say that Sephiroth will slash at Link with the whole of his REACTION SPEED. Even if he has reacted to individual airbourne bullets, his ACTION SPEED is significantly lower.



And you don't get that reaction speed is tied to body speed for all the characters I've mentioned even if their movement feats over distances can't equal the stuff they can dodge, and since both, for Cloud's case, aren't enough to avoid Sephiroth, it's not him that is wrong.

The fact the body of someone slower than Sephiroth can physically react to bullets and a blurry superspeedster at the same time yet can't do as good to Sephiroth or his barrage of blurry sword swings (which mimic the feats of other legitimate bullet timers like Gray Fox or DMC characters) paired with the starting distance not being that big, his sword range, his teleportation, and Link not having as good speed feats, he's right on the money. Sephiroth blitzes.



> Also, one crux to your whole gripe about style vs substance is that you KEEP COMPARING TWO DIFFERENT SHOWS.



Since I've demonstrated that in two different mediums Square has showcased multiple bullet timing feats (Cloud, Kadaj, Sephiroth being better than them), blatant superspeed movement (Loz, not better than Cloud, and Sephiroth, better than Cloud with his superfast slashes not visible but as a blur) then the fact that Sephiroth, who is above peak human types (who have also reacted to bullets in fiction), has superfast reactions and attack speeds is consistent and makes logical sense given the former feats, which require superspeed by necessity. They aren't regular humans to begin with, neither by feats nor in-story justification, in order to try to downplay this status so I won't.



> Ergo, aimdodge.



You're only further misusing that word if you keep clinging to the feats of characters with bullet timing and blatant superspeed as being aimdodging. Aimdodging is when you trick the aim of the shooter by being constantly moving like Batman often does. You can't aimdodge when you dodge bullets without moving from one spot or without the shooter being even close enough to you to properly aimdodge especially when fighting another character and batting them out of the air as happens in AC and doesn't with aimdodgers like Robin from DC. You're just falling into the ad nauseam fallacy now.



> He's dodged cannonfire. No matter what can be said for the _presentation_ of the cannons in the game, the fact of the matter is that cannonballs fire fucking fast. Like, faster-than-eye fast.



Post it, showcasing that he reacted to them after they were fired. Even then cannonfire isn't faster than bullets, which aren't faster than what Cloud can react to, which isn't fast enough for Sephiroth, who required Cloud to further amp his speed to fully be blitzed.



> Also, Link can take bombs and stone-exploding claymore slashes to the face *shrug*



Even if that's not just gameplay mechanics (Snake can take a railgun shot in gameplay even if canonically he's not superhuman or has the feats to do so), Sephiroth can slash a giant metal cannon from a distance with a single sword swing. And bombs? Even Cloud's *eyes* are unharmed by plowing through a giant energy sphere from a summon yet Sephiroth can stab through his body casually as well.



> Except with Magic Cape active, he can phase his weapon through Sephy's bodily defenses (magic, armor, skin, bone, muscle) and directly into his squishy internal organs.



Prove that he has done so against a faster enemy than himself that can teleport and fly on the spot, also Sephiroth either blitzes before he can equip, or using gameplay (which isn't valid anyway) he does what Verdandi said and status-affects him and nulls his MP at the start of the match before Link can perform any action like activation of abilities.


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## skiboydoggy (May 5, 2009)

I can't seem to rep you again, Charcan.


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## tituspullo (May 5, 2009)

Survivor said:


> Romani Chateau provides infinite magic. That plus Magic cape or Magic armor make eternal invincibilty.
> 
> I also forgot Link had the blue cane in A Link to the Past that has a laser rotate around him. Just throwing it out there.



Romani only provides 3 days of magic, link can only carry as much romani as he has bottles.  When he phases in, gg.


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## tituspullo (May 5, 2009)

Referee said:


> Actually, everybody cares about speed, since they keep wanking Sephy's up to say that he wins the match faster than a bullet. So yeah, that was a worthless thing to write. How about rather than insulting my argument, you debate it, yeah?
> Especially since these best strats that you insist I use (and I insist I use them, too) hinge on Link being fast enough (or his opponent being slow enough) to put them into play.



I'm already giving you pre-equips, link has his cape on, whatever.  He runs out of milk eventually and dies.  It doesn't matter how fast or powerful link is, he can't kill someone who has finalattack phoenix and infinite MP loop.


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## Densoro (May 5, 2009)

*sigh* I give up. You're at the point of 'proving' your point by restating it and putting the word 'blatant' in front of it, rather than giving me an actual reason to believe Sephy and the rest have been reacting to the bullets and not the aim of the weapons themselves. You don't prove your point by restating it; your accusation of arguing ad nauseum is a blatant (there's that word again, so I'm right) projection.

Also, I know what aimdodging is. I'm not misusing it. That you accuse me of it is a red herring to draw attention away from the fact that YOU CAN'T PROVE THEY REACTED TO THE BULLETS. You constantly ask "Did Link actually _perceive_ [attack x]?" "[attack y]? "[attack z]?" "[attack 73982748726537438462343]?" but if you say "Sephiroth reacted to bullets" then you don't need to even think of proving it, and God forbid somebody ask you for proof of something that you think is so obvious that you think it speaks for itself. If you'd just post this Goddamn amazing proof, this would be over in an instant, but apparently you like drawing out useless bullshit.

All in all, you've proved nothing and show no promise of changing that. Rather than show me that they actually react to the _fucking_ bullets, you just restate your thesis. And you think I'm debating poorly? "They dodge bullets because they dodge bullets because they dodge bullets."
"But what if they're not actually dodging the bullets?"
"Well they have to dodge bullets in order to dodge bullets, and they dodge bullets by dodging bullets, dumbshit."
"And what makes you so sure they dodged bullets?"
"The fact that they dodged bullets"
"-_- *headbutt*"

And somehow I'm the asshole here? I've had enough of this; I'm obviously never gonna get through to you, because your ability to MISS THE FUCKING POINT could beat the shit out of everybody in this thread. It's God-tier. Speaking of the point, get it through your head that Link doesn't HAVE cutscene feats. You spend the whole damn thread asking for them, but he's got like four, and two of them are him stabbing people in the head. You wanna play by cutscenes? Fine. Link facestabs Sephy, then shoves his sword through the back of your head.

I'm done with this crap; I know you lot will assume the Chewbacca Defense, but whatever. I don't care.


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## Stroev (May 5, 2009)

So the best hope for Link to win is a stalemate, which ironically has been the most non-eyesore of posts there have been. Even then, no limits fallacies and iffy/debatable mechanics have been thrown around, no real battle per se.

Can we let the thread rest already?


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## Ace0019 (May 5, 2009)

What about the Triforce that link gets in A Link to the Past, Link could just wish Sephiroth powerless. And even if Sephiroth blitzes him, a bottled fairy will revive him.


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## Darth Nihilus (May 5, 2009)

When the Triforce is apart of Link's standard equipment, or anything that has been apart of his arsenal, then we'll talk.


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## Darth (May 6, 2009)

How does Link kill someone who is effectively immortal?


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## skiboydoggy (May 6, 2009)

Darth Ruin said:


> How does Link kill someone who is effectively immortal?


He doesn't because he can't even if he wanted to. We're talking Omnislash V.5 levels of damage to kill him, and even then he can come back.

Also, I'm amused by the BAWWWW.


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## Seijun Togiretogire (May 6, 2009)

Wait, Ref's been upset because it wasn't "proved" they reacted to bullets?

Zack used cartwheels to dodge machine-gun fire from about two dozen Shin-Ra troops in the Last Order. Since he was surrounded and they were all on multiple levels of a construction yard, I highly doubt he was just reacting "to the aim."

Zack lost to N. Sephiroth (Nibelheim Sephy).

AC Sephiroth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> N. Sephiroth.

This thread's Sephiroth has combined Ac Sephy with KH Sephy and Dissidia Sephy. Ergo, the strongest possible incarnation of Sephiroth, whereas the weakest is able to blitz a bullet-timer.

GG Link.


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## Tatl / Tael (May 6, 2009)

Darth Nihilus said:


> When the Triforce is apart of Link's standard equipment, or anything that has been apart of his arsenal, then we'll talk.



The Harp of Ages provides Time Travel for free. It was the main item in The Oracle of Ages.


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## Densoro (May 6, 2009)

Seijun Togiretogire said:


> Wait, Ref's been upset because it wasn't "proved" they reacted to bullets?
> 
> Zack used cartwheels to dodge machine-gun fire from about two dozen Shin-Ra troops in the Last Order. Since he was surrounded and they were all on multiple levels of a construction yard, I highly doubt he was just reacting "to the aim."
> 
> ...



Yay, somebody who knows how to provide proof! =D I had to rewatch LO, but it does indeed seem like Zack's watching the bullets go past his face when they pan in/slow-mo during the cartwheel scene. I'd forgotten that; I thought the reason Zack won that fight was mainly that he did some aimdodging and they started crossfiring each other, but I'd forgotten about that moment where they zoomed in on his face.

Example to everybody in this thread. That's called proof. Repeating your point and adding words like 'blatant' and 'obvious' doesn't do jack. Presenting scenes that I hadn't considered does. It really was as easy as Sei made it look.

Still, one last thing before this gets topped off. Zack is notably faster without his Buster Sword; when he was running through the forest and they were shooting at his back, bullets were tagging him (blocked by the sword on his back) left and right. Then once he unequips it, he starts doing all these crazy bullet-timing cartwheels.
N Sephy blitzed Zack with his Buster; does the speed penalty of the Buster dampen the feat at all? Basically, could unarmed Zack have blitzed Sephy?


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## skiboydoggy (May 7, 2009)

You know, that would be a good point, if not for the fact that the cartwheeling feat had already been brought up and the fact that Cloud blocking bullets in AC is still perfectly legitimate. And Sephiroth is the strongest character in FFVII bar none, in every single aspect you would like to mention. Zack could be using Haste and Sephiroth could still pwn him.


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## Seijun Togiretogire (May 7, 2009)

Referee said:


> Still, one last thing before this gets topped off. Zack is notably faster without his Buster Sword; when he was running through the forest and they were shooting at his back, bullets were tagging him (blocked by the sword on his back) left and right. Then once he unequips it, he starts doing all these crazy bullet-timing cartwheels.
> N Sephy blitzed Zack with his Buster; does the speed penalty of the Buster dampen the feat at all? Basically, could unarmed Zack have blitzed Sephy?



I've got no idea. I'll have to re-watch L.O. to double-check that. I thought Zack was just using the sword to block while he was running away. IIRC, wasn't he carrying Cloud as well?


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## Densoro (May 7, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> You know, that would be a good point, if not for the fact that *the cartwheeling feat had already been brought up* and the fact that Cloud blocking bullets in AC is still perfectly legitimate. And Sephiroth is the strongest character in FFVII bar none, in every single aspect you would like to mention. Zack could be using Haste and Sephiroth could still pwn him.



Really? I must've missed it. That's what happens when people use attacks on my character while debating with me. I get pissed off and miss stuff XD So said people may wanna cut down on that. Could stand to save them hours of useless arguing.

Anyway, is it said that Sephiroth's stats are _all_ higher than anybody else's, or is it that collectively, he is the most formidable opponent in FF7verse? One can be the toughest fight in the world without necessarily being statcapped.

True, Sei, he did have Cloud in tow too, but in other scenes, he's still never quite as fast as his unarmed mode.
But if you guys don't feel like doing point-by-point stat calculations for Zack's exact armed movement speed, I suppose we could call this quits and just give this to Sephy. Sei's approach put me in a good mood (I don't think he used the word 'wank' once =O), so if he wants a break, it's his call *shrug*

And technically, I suppose the overall count really is a stalemate, just like was said clear back on like page six XD Link with 0 Stupidity and gameplay mechanics goes into his strongest form right from the get-go, but Link with personality gets merked. That's a 1:1 win ratio *shrug*

...And this thread just about hit 30, too x_____X I've gotta help you guys figure out how we can skip the useless stuff in the middle and just jump to this understanding phase right at the end.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 7, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> You know, that would be a good point, if not for the fact that the cartwheeling feat had already been brought up and the fact that Cloud blocking bullets in AC is still perfectly legitimate.



Yeah, I didn't feel the need to mention a feat I noticed was already posted before despite not having read all of the thread.

Anyway, feat-wise and gameplay-wise, Sephiroth stomps Link as has been said already.


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## Seijun Togiretogire (May 8, 2009)

Referee said:


> Anyway, is it said that Sephiroth's stats are _all_ higher than anybody else's, or is it that collectively, he is the most formidable opponent in FF7verse? One can be the toughest fight in the world without necessarily being statcapped.
> 
> True, Sei, he did have Cloud in tow too, but in other scenes, he's still never quite as fast as his unarmed mode.
> But if you guys don't feel like doing point-by-point stat calculations for Zack's exact armed movement speed, I suppose we could call this quits and just give this to Sephy. Sei's approach put me in a good mood (I don't think he used the word 'wank' once =O), so if he wants a break, it's his call *shrug*



I'm just enjoying the chaos, hahaha. *Btw, congrats on being the first person here to refer to me by me by one of my sub-standard nicknames (Sei, Seij, and Sage being the most common)*

Anyway, to answer your question, I *believe,* but I'm not certain, that Sephiroth's stats were maxed out in the Nibelheim flashback. He literally recieves 0 damage every time an enemy hits him (it should be noted that wears the Touph ring, which adds 50 to his Vitality despite it being maxed) and has infinite MP, as well as the highest incarnations of Fire, Quake, Ice, Bolt, Restore, Life, and each of them paired with an All materia. Despite all of that, his in-game level is only 50 of 99.

As for the calcs, find someone else; I don't do calcs very well, lol.


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## tituspullo (May 8, 2009)

Referee you're a toolbag.  Link wins no scenarios, not with gamemech, not with feats, not with intangibility, nothing.  You lost this argument, it's no big deal, it's just some dumb internet forum, get over it and stop being a little bitch.


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## God (May 8, 2009)

Wow, this is still going. i think its pretty much proved Link gets raped.


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## Densoro (May 8, 2009)

tituspullo said:


> Referee you're a toolbag.  Link wins no scenarios, not with gamemech, not with feats, not with intangibility, nothing.  You lost this argument, it's no big deal, it's just some dumb internet forum, get over it and stop being a little bitch.



You're more flustered than me at this point, so I have to wonder who's really being a bitch =X Settle down, dude. Let this thread die already, rather than posting your silly projections and outing yourself e____e


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## SHM (May 8, 2009)

Sephiroth's powers, abilities, and even the composition of his body, are equal to Jenova by now.
And while Link was using his powers to kill monsters... Jenova was using her powers(that belong to Sephiroth now) to destroy entire civilizations on other planets.


Seriously... We are talking about a guy who was able to own all 8 members of Avalanche(at the planet's core, before he transformed in Bizarro) *without even moving his body*, until he decided to stop playing around, and transformed in a giant monster full of powerful magic and regeneration abilities.


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## tgre (May 18, 2009)

Me pressing the start button > Sephiroth teleporting.

Magic Armour.
Magic Cape
Harp of Ages

^^

gamemech triumphs no matter how you see it.


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## skiboydoggy (May 18, 2009)

tGre teh Disleksik said:


> Me pressing the start button > Sephiroth teleporting.
> 
> Magic Armour.
> Magic Cape
> ...


Imma negging a ne Plus Ultra. Fear me.
Bad revive and bad not reading of threads.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 18, 2009)

skiboydoggy said:


> Imma negging a ne Plus Ultra. Fear me.



 I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that did jack shit to him.


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