# Goku vs. The Flash



## Dark Evangel (Jul 14, 2006)

I've always want to see this fight. Who shall win?


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## Newzfoxjr (Jul 14, 2006)

o_O

I don't know much about The Flash, but eh. Dragonball Z was the first Anime I ever watched, so Goku.


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## Seany (Jul 14, 2006)

I'm certain that Goku would win.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

Flash just steals his speed and it's over.


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## Samurai Man (Jul 14, 2006)

i think goku takes this one


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## Renegade (Jul 14, 2006)

Well I don't know much about the flash other than from what I saw from the Justice league unlimited show... So i'm not really sure, but for a wild guess, i'd say goku.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

You people are voting when you nothing about what you are up against.

Flash can move at trillions of times the speed of light, travel through time, make himself intangible, attack with the force of the mass of a star, steal speed from objects and beings to make them motionless, vibrate straight through matter to destroy it, and trap opponents inside of the speed force.


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## Renegade (Jul 14, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You people are voting when you nothing about what you are up against.
> 
> Flash can move at trillions of times the speed of light, travel through time, make himself intangible, attack with the force of the mass of a star, steal speed from objects and beings to make them motionless, vibrate straight through matter to destroy it, and trap opponents inside of the speed force.


Then i'd say the Flash wins


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## escamoh (Jul 14, 2006)

Depends on which version of Flash I guess...

I watch JLA on CN so that's really the only Flash I have to go by so I'd say Goku.

But other versions of Flash like Endless Mike said would pretty much own Goku.


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## Aruarian (Jul 14, 2006)

Use KC Flash.


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2006)

> Flash just steals his speed and it's over.



Doesn't he have to touch Goku though?



> Flash can move at trillions of times the speed of light, travel through time, make himself intangible, attack with the force of the mass of a star, steal speed from objects and beings to make them motionless, vibrate straight through matter to destroy it, and trap opponents inside of the speed force.



No he can not move a trillion times the speed of light, from what i have seen he can reach just light speed then he will enter the speed force.

For this match i am somewhat split, Goku has what it takes to beat the flash, people with less abilities have beaten flash, so i could see goku winning this match, he would have to play it smart but goku is a pretty smart fighter so i will give this to goku.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 14, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You people are voting when you nothing about what you are up against.
> 
> Flash can move at trillions of times the speed of light, travel through time, make himself intangible, attack with the force of the mass of a star, steal speed from objects and beings to make them motionless, vibrate straight through matter to destroy it, and trap opponents inside of the speed force.



And this means nothing because Goku blood lusted can use his Shunkan Idou (Instant Transmission) AS his Natural Speed! Goku wins easily.


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## Aruarian (Jul 14, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> And this means nothing because Goku blood lusted can use his Shunkan Idou (Instant Transmission) AS his Natural Speed! Goku wins easily.


Ha.

Hahahahahahahahahaha.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

Teleportation is not speed.

It is just instant movement from one spot to another.

You can't change directions mid - teleport, and have to spend a few seconds to lock onto a signal first.

And yes, Flash has to touch Goku to steal his speed, although I don't see how that will be a problem considering how much faster he is.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 14, 2006)

_Trillions_?


Really? Trillions? I don't mean some uber high end powered up showing (or KC flash) either I mean regular Flash, the one that evacuated a city in less than a second (seems "regular" enough) Flash. I mean that's probably light speed right there (or more) but _trillions_?


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## Dark Evangel (Jul 14, 2006)

The Flash is way above Superman's speed.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

Delta Shell said:
			
		

> _Trillions_?
> 
> 
> Really? Trillions? I don't mean some uber high end powered up showing (or KC flash) either I mean regular Flash, the one that evacuated a city in less than a second (seems "regular" enough) Flash. I mean that's probably light speed right there (or more) but _trillions_?



He evacuated the city in 0.00001 microseconds, and took over 500,000 people all 35 miles away.

That's trillions of times the speed of light.


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## ydraliskos (Jul 14, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He evacuated the city in 0.00001 microseconds, and took over 500,000 people all 35 miles away.
> 
> That's trillions of times the speed of light.



I wish you'd just win the debate using just ftl speed and leave it there. Still beats Goku =/

Making scientific calculations on pseudo-scientific stupid comic power excuses is just doh  dunno.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

So you're saying that in comic books, speed doesnt equal distance/time?

That's common sense.


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## Keollyn (Jul 14, 2006)

One thing's for certain... Flash is DEFINITELY faster than Shunkan Ido. While Kakarotto's thinking of doing it, Flash would have already done his dirt.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 14, 2006)

It took 0.00001 microseconds?

Edit: Just read the issue, yes they it was that many microseconds however it was stated on the same page that the people were carried there at a hairs breadth from Light Speed. NOT trillions of times which is ridiculous.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

According to the scan I saw, yeah.


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2006)

> And yes, Flash has to touch Goku to steal his speed, although I don't see how that will be a problem considering how much faster he is.



Well he could touch Goku i don't see it happening though, i have to check the manga but i always though when a guy charged up Ki it became difficult for the things around to move, that or he could just create a somewhat ki barrier.



> He evacuated the city in 0.00001 microseconds, and took over 500,000 people all 35 miles away.
> 
> That's trillions of times the speed of light.



People are so quick to point this sort of shit out for dbz, ( tao throwing the piller) or Kamehameha reaching moon in a couple of seconds. Yet they fail to reach it now.

I don't think the Flash would win, i have seen him loose to lesser characters, Goku is a smart character, and he has ability to sort of sense what has happened so he can base his movements on what will happen, so he can dodge in time, he could just release his ki in a high burst to knock the flash down and then kill him.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 14, 2006)

> According to the scan I saw, yeah.



Read the whole page Endless Mike, although it says the thing about micro seconds it also says something else very important. (I've edited my post above btw)

It's stated on the same page that the people were carried at _*close to light speed*_. Then the same thing is stated on the very next page. *Near light speed travel*. I'll post the scans again if you want.

Yeah, people often have a bias when throwing out certain facts from one situation but allow it for their own (note, I am not saying Mike is guilty of this) but i've seen it so many boards where they are so willing to use one piece of nonsensical evidence to forward their argument, it's infuriating.

The worst was that Maestro crap.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

How will any of that do any good when he is beaten before the neurons in his brain can even fire to tell him to do anything?

And the Flash can pass straight through solid matter and energy, so no kind of ki barrier will help.

Not to mention that that kind of thing is rarely seen in the show anyway and is rarely the default response to an attack, and is never used as a first move.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 14, 2006)

Akk stop posting so fast!! My posts are being missed.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

Delta Shell said:
			
		

> Read the whole page Endless Mike, although it says the thing about micro seconds it also says something else very important. (I've edited my post above btw)
> 
> It's stated on the same page that the people were carried at _*close to light speed*_. Then the same thing is stated on the very next page. *Near light speed travel*. I'll post the scans again if you want.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I know it said that, but the facts of the matter prove that that quote was wrong. The author just didn't do his math.

It equates to much faster than lightspeed.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 14, 2006)

No the author _clearly_ defined Flash's speed.

His maths might be terrible but he _clearly_ said it was near light speed. You cannot refute that becuase maths says so. The author says Flash = Near light NOT trillions, author intent should take president.

Frankly it's silly to argue against something the author stated twice because his maths was off.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

So you're saying that what is said to have happened is more important than what actually happened?


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## Phenomenol (Jul 14, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Teleportation is not speed.
> 
> It is just instant movement from one spot to another.
> 
> ...



Your chatting Garbage. Instant transmisiion Transcends space and time. 

Oh and about Goku locking on and taking a few seconds...

*#1*

Oh yeah look at the few seconds 

Flash dies before he moves.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 14, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> So you're saying that what is said to have happened is more important than what actually happened?



Only it's not what is "said" to have happened. It _is_ what happened. The author didn't get a random bystander to say "Ooh he must have been going light speed" no, the author said it himself. Twice. It should not be disputed. Not because his maths is bad.

Comic book physics and maths are always bad you can't be so pedantic.

Tell me this. If the quote about Flash being near C can be "wrong" as you put it, what's to say the quote about the "distance of 35km" or the quote about "0.00001 microseconds" aren't wrong? Stop over analysing. Sometimes you've got to accept it for what it is, a comic book.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

Just because the narration says something happened doesn't mean it actually did.

If a panel showed a planet completely unharmed and the narration said that the planet exploded (and there was nothing to justify this later like an illusion or anything) then the narration was simply wrong.

The author may not have realized what the actual speed required for the feat was, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

If there was some way to rationalize the discrepancy and come up with a reasonable explanation for how the statement of his speed could have been right, then I would agree with you.

But there's not.

No matter which way you look at it, that feat and the speed that was stated for it to happen will NEVER be compatible. There is no way for him to have done that at only c or near c. The mere fact that it happened is disproof of the author's statement.

Sometimes when you write things, the events can have consequences you never anticipated. But that doesn't mean those consequences are wrong.

If I built a machine that was supposed to act as a power generator, but it also produced deadly radiation, would that mean that the radiation was never produced because I didn't intend for that to happen? Of course not.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 14, 2006)

Ahaha, dude are you kidding me?

Tell me this. If the quote about Flash being near C can be "wrong" as you put it, what's to say the quote about the "distance of 35km" or the quote about "0.00001 microseconds" aren't wrong? Stop over analysing. If you want to take to stance of the quote being wrong someone could easily call the "stats" wrong too, where does that get you?

Sometimes you've got to accept it for what it is, a comic book. This isn't real life where you've built a radiation machine, it's a piece of entertainment unhinged from reality. The dude that wrote the comic said near light speed, that's generally accepted to be in Flash's ballpark (ok he can go a lot faster) but trillions is ridiculous.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Your chatting Garbage. Instant transmisiion Transcends space and time.
> 
> Oh and about Goku locking on and taking a few seconds...
> 
> ...



You're ignoring the previous pages, where Goku started powering up and everyone was making a big deal of how he would destroy the planet if he fired. He obviously had his plan in mind then, did you ever think he might have been locking on then?

Teleportation means nothing if you can't react fast enough to use it.

Say Goku tries to teleport to where Flash is, but by the time he does, Flash is already somewhere else, since it took Goku too long to even think about teleporting.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

Delta Shell said:
			
		

> Ahaha, dude are you kidding me?
> 
> Tell me this. If the quote about Flash being near C can be "wrong" as you put it, what's to say the quote about the "distance of 35km" or the quote about "0.00001 microseconds" aren't wrong? Stop over analysing. Sometimes you've got to accept it for what it is, a comic book.



Fine, I'll humor you.

If he was travelling at the speed of light, then to take 532,000 people 35 kilometers (including all the return trips to go back and get more people), then it would take him about 3 minutes and 20 seconds to evacuate the whole city.

It obviously happened faster than that.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 14, 2006)

So what if it wasn't 35km?


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## Scorpio3.14 (Jul 14, 2006)

When Flash run's just barely slower then the speed of light he actually skims across the time barrier allowing him to theoretically go at infinite speed (speed = distance / time, Flash can control the time part of that equation).

Its a rarely used feature of the Flash, but he can and has traveled through time under his own power by getting infinitely close to the speed of light.


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## Kuya (Jul 14, 2006)

Justice League version of the Flash loses. And, remember when Superman and Flash were in that race against eachother around the world? i think Goku is faster. P.S. all Goku needs to do is stay in air.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 14, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> When Flash run's just barely slower then the speed of light he actually skims across the time barrier allowing him to theoretically go at infinite speed (speed = distance / time, Flash can control the time part of that equation).
> 
> Its a rarely used feature of the Flash, but he can and has traveled through time under his own power by getting infinitely close to the speed of light.



Yeah, that can work. Thank you. Not trillions of times the speed of light and not being ridiculous and disregarding a plain solid statement because of comic book calculations.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

Delta Shell said:
			
		

> So what if it wasn't 35km?
> 
> Heck. Why not just say the pictures are wrong too.



Because that's a relatively safe radius from a nuclear explosion?

We could shorten the distance to 10 kilometers and lengthen the time to 1 second and he would still be moving over 57 times lightspeed.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> When Flash run's just barely slower then the speed of light he actually skims across the time barrier allowing him to theoretically go at infinite speed (speed = distance / time, Flash can control the time part of that equation).
> 
> Its a rarely used feature of the Flash, but he can and has traveled through time under his own power by getting infinitely close to the speed of light.



That is a possible explanation.

However, that just makes things worse for Goku.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

Konoha Elite said:
			
		

> Justice League version of the Flash loses. And, remember when Superman and Flash were in that race against eachother around the world? i think Goku is faster. P.S. all Goku needs to do is stay in air.



DCAU is non - canon!

Obviously we are using the comics.

And Goku won't even be able to get into the air before he is defeated.

Even if he can, Flash can just jump up and hit him.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 14, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You're ignoring the previous pages, where Goku started powering up and everyone was making a big deal of how he would destroy the planet if he fired. He obviously had his plan in mind then, did you ever think he might have been locking on then?
> 
> *The previous pages just shows him powering up the Kamehameha not locking on.*
> 
> ...



No Flash is not going to know where Goku is, Hell Flash can't even fight Gorillas without getting hit.

Instant Transmission >>>>>>>>> Flash Period!


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2006)

> How will any of that do any good when he is beaten before the neurons in his brain can even fire to tell him to do anything?
> 
> And the Flash can pass straight through solid matter and energy, so no kind of ki barrier will help.
> 
> Not to mention that that kind of thing is rarely seen in the show anyway and is rarely the default response to an attack, and is never used as a first move.



But ki is a mixture of spirit, anyway he could pass through it, i don't  think he would. Though it isn't used in the show against the flash he has the option of opening in that manner.

Even if he charges up ( i need to check on this) people around somewhat freeze through preasure that could somewhat happen to the flash. If Flash gets infinitly close to light he is still moving slower than it so i don't really get this travelling behind time thing, though i can remember people using this as a way to say dbz characters move faster than light. I have seen him beat himself in a race i just don't understand it.

Wally could win this figth, but i also see Goku win, due to the fact that i have seen Wally loose to lesser people, and to the fact that goku is a skilled fighter and could work around his speed.


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2006)

> Because that's a relatively safe radius from a nuclear explosion?
> 
> We could shorten the distance to 10 kilometers and lengthen the time to 1 second and he would still be moving over 57 times lightspeed.
> __________________



You know what annoys me, in a thread you are the exact type of person you see complaining saying ''It was a plot hole it couldn't happen'' to prove db characters not being able of certain things. Yet for this you don't accept that he does not move a trillion times faster than light, you are the same guy that bashes other members, sure.

He doesn't move a trillion times faster than light, if he did i would give the fight to him, but i don't think he does move that speed.

Normal flash what he does on an adverage basis is the flash i think would loose to Goku.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

Just because it's not explicitly stated doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Facts:

 - Every other time he used the technique he had to lock on.

 - He had the idea for the plan he was using at least as soon as he started charging up the beam

Doesn't this say that, logically, he also locked on during that time?

And reacting to the teleportation itself doesn't matter, because he can already beat Goku before he even gets a chance to use it.

He once raced a being who could teleport instantly and still won because he got to the destination faster than the being could think of using his teleportation.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> But ki is a mixture of spirit, anyway he could pass through it, i don't  think he would. Though it isn't used in the show against the flash he has the option of opening in that manner.
> 
> Even if he charges up ( i need to check on this) people around somewhat freeze through preasure that could somewhat happen to the flash. If Flash gets infinitly close to light he is still moving slower than it so i don't really get this travelling behind time thing, though i can remember people using this as a way to say dbz characters move faster than light. I have seen him beat himself in a race i just don't understand it.
> 
> Wally could win this figth, but i also see Goku win, due to the fact that i have seen Wally loose to lesser people, and to the fact that goku is a skilled fighter and could work around his speed.



Sure he's lost to lesser people, but he's also beaten much greater people.

Notably the Anti - Monitor.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> You know what annoys me, in a thread you are the exact type of person you see complaining saying ''It was a plot hole it couldn't happen'' to prove db characters not being able of certain things. Yet for this you don't accept that he does not move a trillion times faster than light, you are the same guy that bashes other members, sure.
> 
> He doesn't move a trillion times faster than light, if he did i would give the fight to him, but i don't think he does move that speed.
> 
> Normal flash what he does on an adverage basis is the flash i think would loose to Goku.



What are you talking about?

Honestly, I fail to see any real arguments in this post.

Trillions of times c is Flash's high - end, but even just 2 or 3 times c would be enough to run rings around Goku.


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## Keollyn (Jul 14, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He once raced a being who could teleport instantly and still won because he got to the destination faster than the being could think of using his teleportation.



This pretty much ends this thread.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> This pretty much ends this thread.



With Phenomen - LOL around?

Don't bet on it.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 14, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Just because it's not explicitly stated doesn't mean it didn't happen.
> 
> Facts:
> 
> ...



That is no where near Goku's Shunkan Idou which Transcends Time and Space it is different. Flash dies because he won't even feel his death.


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## Keollyn (Jul 14, 2006)

I'm now eager to see his retort to that scan you posted.

Edit: Nevermind. I got my wish.


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## ydraliskos (Jul 14, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> So you're saying that in comic books, speed doesnt equal distance/time?
> 
> That's common sense.



I'm saying that comic books bend(assrape) physics just to give powerlevels in the lamest way possible, then kill it, and make the assraped corpse a puppet and have it stripdance.
what the fuck is a trillion times the speed of light anyway? Why can't they just stick with the cap and make a proper scale below it and not be completely retarded is beyond me.

Things like multiples of light speed sound more retarded than SuperSuperSuperMan for chrissakes.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 14, 2006)

ydraliskos said:
			
		

> I'm saying that comic books bend(assrape) physics just to give powerlevels in the lamest way possible, then kill it, and make the assraped corpse a puppet and have it stripdance.
> what the fuck is a trillion times the speed of light anyway? Why can't they just stick with the cap and make a proper scale below it and not be completely retarded is beyond me.
> 
> Things like multiples of light speed sound more retarded than SuperSuperSuperMan for chrissakes.



So? You know whats even more retarded? No one can figure out who Superman really is.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

> Wrong, that is if only he does not know where it is going. I can post Goku using it against Kid Buu instantly.



Because he had been fighting him already and had already had a lock on his ki (you need to do this in a fight to track your opponent, as proved when Picollo told Gohan to follow Nappa with his ki senses).



> And, He can use Shunkan Idou as his natural speed Flash dies.



No he can't.

He never has.

It's never even been hinted at.

Teleportation is not speed.

It works completely differently.

I might as well say that the Flash can freeze time and then turn Goku into a retarded cockroach with no legs, I would have just as much proof as you do.



> No it does not, his opponent is in front of him he is not travelling lightyears away.



What does that matter?

He still has to lock on.



> Nope, Flash aint beating that, instant is instant flash is dead.



You don't get it. The movement is instant, but the time to prepare to move is not instant. Flash kills him before he can even think of attacking.



> That is no where near Goku's Shunkan Idou which Transcends Time and Space it is different. Flash dies because he won't even feel his death.



And your proof for this is?

What that being had was the exact same ability. Flash beat it. Fight over.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

ydraliskos said:
			
		

> I'm saying that comic books bend(assrape) physics just to give powerlevels in the lamest way possible, then kill it, and make the assraped corpse a puppet and have it stripdance.
> what the fuck is a trillion times the speed of light anyway? Why can't they just stick with the cap and make a proper scale below it and not be completely retarded is beyond me.
> 
> Things like multiples of light speed sound more retarded than SuperSuperSuperMan for chrissakes.



What's wrong with measuring speed in multiples of c?

Of course it's impossible to travel faster than c in real life, but in universes where it is possible, it's a completely logical thing to do. It's used all the time in science fiction when measuring the FTL speed of starships.


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## ydraliskos (Jul 14, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> What's wrong with measuring speed in multiples of c?
> 
> Of course it's impossible to travel faster than c in real life, but in universes where it is possible, it's a completely logical thing to do. It's used all the time in science fiction when measuring the FTL speed of starships.



Its used with good sense tho. Anywhere else you see FTL, it's just a turning point. They go FTL, end of story. LS barrier breached.  They don't do fanservice (I don't know how else to call it) by going x times the speed of light and now he went faster at x+y times speed of light.  

Only place I have seen this is on statistics sheets or spaceship specs for some of the Sci-Fi universes out there, and NEVER inside a self respecting piece of non technical writing =/ 

Well I'm just venting my anger at the general direction western and eastern fictions seem to take... 
It feels like we never left "Faster than a speeding bullet" ...


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 14, 2006)

> Only place I have seen this is on statistics sheets or spaceship specs for some of the Sci-Fi universes out there, and NEVER inside a self respecting piece of non technical writing =/



Han Solo: "She'll make ten past lightspeed." 

I don't think Lucas was really super technical in writing Star Wars.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 14, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Because he had been fighting him already and had already had a lock on his ki (you need to do this in a fight to track your opponent, as proved when Picollo told Gohan to follow Nappa with his ki senses).
> 
> *Any DBZ character can lock on any one's ki even planets away. It is automatic something that can be done with no effort at all. Yet you would not know that because you know nothing of DBZ and you swear you do.:amazed *
> 
> ...



Your foolishness never rests, anyone who argues with Shunkan Idou is a fool. Nothing is faster than that.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

ydraliskos said:
			
		

> Its used with good sense tho. Anywhere else you see FTL, it's just a turning point. They go FTL, end of story. LS barrier breached.  They don't do fanservice (I don't know how else to call it) by going x times the speed of light and now he went faster at x+y times speed of light.
> 
> Only place I have seen this is on statistics sheets or spaceship specs for some of the Sci-Fi universes out there, and NEVER inside a self respecting piece of non technical writing =/
> 
> ...



When travelling across high distances or moving certain distances in certain amounts of times, simply lightspeed or slightly higher is not enough.

For example, if you want a civilization that can travel between galaxies routinely, you're going to need travel speeds way way higher than c.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Han Solo: "She'll make ten past lightspeed."
> 
> I don't think Lucas was really super technical in writing Star Wars.



It was 0.5 past lightspeed, and that was explained in the EU as being a special type of logarithmic scale.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 14, 2006)

...
Ur delusion and extremly biased if you think Flash can move trillions of times the speed of light going off that one issue. Within the comic itself, where Man Hunter became the Burning and sent the missiles to blow up the city, the coomic state Flash moved just under the speed of light. It doesn't matter if the calculations don't add up. They state he moved just under the speed of light. So if you want to claim FLash can move "trillions of times the speed of light", provide another source besides that one issue of the Jla comic. Lastly, it doesn't matter if the writers obviously didn't even factor in caluclations. His speed during that instance is intend as just under the speed of light. Anyway, Flash defeats the Dbz Universe, so Goku is joke. Nothing Goku does will ever be able to even touch the flash, literally, Flash will vibrate and avoid any attack. Personally, I place Flash Unleashed as the Strongest member of the Jla, above Superman and Martial Manhunter, even if they were to fight him together.


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## ydraliskos (Jul 14, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Your foolishness never rests, anyone who argues with Shunkan Idou is a fool. Nothing is faster than that.



Lucky Luke is faster than that >_> Want proof? ^__^



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> When travelling across high distances or moving certain distances in certain amounts of times, simply lightspeed or slightly higher is not enough.
> 
> For example, if you want a civilization that can travel between galaxies routinely, you're going to need travel speeds way way higher than c.



Yes, I agree with that. But also, what does it matter. The author will pass you the information than Faster than Light travel has been achieved, then nobody cares about speeds unless it's a space race or a war campaign.  Flash and the rest of the comics fall into neither category, they just use FTL multiples just for the sake of powerlevels .


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 14, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> It was 0.5 past lightspeed, and that was explained in the EU as being a special type of logarithmic scale.



Whoops. Haven't seen the movie in a while.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 14, 2006)

Shika shika boo said:
			
		

> ...
> Ur delusion and extremly biased if you think Flash can move trillions of times the speed of light going off that one issue. Within the comic itself, where Man Hunter became the Burning and sent the missiles to blow up the city, the coomic state Flash moved just under the speed of light. It doesn't matter if the calculations don't add up. They state he moved just under the speed of light. So if you want to claim FLash can move "trillions of times the speed of light", provide another source besides that one issue of the Jla comic. Lastly, it doesn't matter if the writers obviously didn't even factor in caluclations. His speed during that instance is intend as just under the speed of light. Anyway, Flash defeats the Dbz Universe, so Goku is joke. Nothing Goku does will ever be able to even touch the flash, literally, Flash will vibrate and avoid any attack. Personally, I place Flash Unleashed as the Strongest member of the Jla, above Superman and Martial Manhunter, even if they were to fight him together.



Yeah, exactly 

Anyway, i'm willing to go with the time distortion thing but really, it's just a comic book.

I could see Flash winning if written intelligently.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

> Any DBZ character can lock on any one's ki even planets away. It is automatic something that can be done with no effort at all. Yet you would not know that because you know nothing of DBZ and you swear you do



Then how come Goku always has to stop and think for a few seconds to do so?



> You cease to amaze me, Did you even see the damn Scan? Goku used Shunkan Idou on Cell as his natural speed.



Teleportation is not 'natural speed'.

He powered up a kamehameha, then teleported near Cell at the last moment and fired it.



> He only locks on only when he does not know where he is going.



WTF? Do you even listen to yourself? When has Goku ever teleported somewhere where he didn't know where he was going?

He always has a destination in mind.

Teleporting blindly would be stupid, he would probably end up in space and suffocate.



> What is it that you are not getting that Goku used Shunkan Idou as HIS NATURAL SPEED? Flash is not that Damn fast anyway to stop Goku, Hell Flash gets hit by slow as characters all the time Goriila Grodd anyone?



Grodd can only hope to attack Flash with OFFENSIVE TELEPATHY.

Goku can just teleport places, won't help if he is blitzed before he can even teleport.



> It was a race in the city it required no distance, Race Goku lightyears away you ain't beating his Shunkan Idou!



No distance?

Are you a moron?

Wait, of course you are.

EVEN A MILLIMETER IS DISTANCE!

Besides, the race only ended in the city.

And how would teleporting lightyears away help Goku, unless your winning strategy is for him to run away?



> Your foolishness never rests, anyone who argues with Shunkan Idou is a fool. Nothing is faster than that.



Now you're just being a fanboy, the abilities were described in basically the EXACT SAME WAY, what makes you think one was better than the other?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

ydraliskos said:
			
		

> Lucky Luke is faster than that >_> Want proof? ^__^
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I agree with that. But also, what does it matter. The author will pass you the information than Faster than Light travel has been achieved, then nobody cares about speeds unless it's a space race or a war campaign.  Flash and the rest of the comics fall into neither category, they just use FTL multiples just for the sake of powerlevels .



It's not usually something that is stated directly, it's something that can be determined by the distance divided by time.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 14, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Then how come Goku always has to stop and think for a few seconds to do so?
> 
> *No he does not, you need to stop right now and go do research.*
> 
> ...



No you are being a Flash fanboy, to argue against Shunkan Idou is only a fool's argument. Begone with your nonsense


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2006)

Flash does not move a trillion time faster than light, a lot of this shit done by him is for readers pleasure, something people are in no haste to point out with db.

Him moving faster than timeless movement, well i want to know how they actually worked that out, i don't really value that scan that much to be truthful.

Anyway, i give this match to Goku, he could just go air bourn and blitz the lower ground, from what i have seen flash can not actually fly, once he is in the air he can hide in the clouds to make flash throwing objects more difficult, he can then blitz the lower ground, since his blast can hit the ground in less than a second he can time them really fast to blow of huge chunks and set it up in a way that flash can not escape.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 14, 2006)

> Anyway, i give this match to Goku, he could just go air bourn and blitz the lower ground, from what i have seen flash can not actually fly, once he is in the air he can hide in the clouds to make flash throwing objects more difficult, he can then blitz the lower ground, since his blast can hit the ground in less than a second he can time them really fast to blow of huge chunks and set it up in a way that flash can not escape.



You really think the Flash can't avoid that? Even if he doesn't go trillions of times the speed of light, he still goes the speed of light. Thats more than enough to go to a Jack in the Box, get a Diner Melt combo and come back after the blast has hit.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

> No he does not, you need to stop right now and go do research.



First time he uses it, he says he needs to lock onto a familiar ki. He takes a few seconds and then goes to Roshi's house and back, taking his sunglasses.

Going to King Kai's planet, he needs to lock on first.

Going from King Kai's planet to New Namek, he locks on first.

etc.



> And he used it naturally likr it was nothing.



No, it's not 'natural speed'.

It was a one - shot attack, he only had one chance, and it relied on a trick of misdirection.



> Not in battle Mike! Not in battle. Goku focuses when he travels lightyears away or to heaven or hell on a specific person,place or thing.



And it happens in battle too, he always has the idea of doing so way before it happens.

It won't matter, since Flash will Kill Goku before Goku can even think a single thought or even command his body to do anything.



> And Flash is slow enough to get mind raped! yes he is.



If you're being telepathically attacked, it doesn't matter how fast you are, because telepathy is instant and omnidirectional.



> Damn your like a robot on repeat, Goku used the Shunkan Idou in battle as well as teleport places.



Yeah, he used it in battle to teleport places, just to set up one - chance attacks or tricks. He doesn't use it constantly all the time. He can't even change directions in mid - teleport, or stop prematurely.



> A race in a city means nothing, Goku does not need to run Flash dies before the fight begins.



Did you even listen to what I just said?

Reread it now. Flash can't die before the fight begins, because Goku can't react fast enough to hit him.

As soon as the fight starts Flash will kill Goku before Goku's neurons can even fire.



> No you are being a Flash fanboy, to argue against Shunkan Idou is only a fool's argument. Begone with your nonsense



Only a fanboy would argue that something is impossible to beat.


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2006)

> You really think the Flash can't avoid that? Even if he doesn't go trillions of times the speed of light, he still goes the speed of light. Thats more than enough to go to a Jack in the Box, get a Diner Melt combo and come back after the blast has hit.



Not it isn't the blast hit the earth in less than a second and blow a set chunk out, if he spams them he could lead explosions all over which he couldn't dodge. We know the blast in dbz move fast as a kamehameha reached the moon in about 2 seconds, that is close to light speed. People underate too much how fast the actuall ki blasts move.

Oh and does someone know how fast lightning moves, as goku was able to dodge that in DBZ, obviously as the series went on what he could doge increased.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Flash does not move a trillion time faster than light, a lot of this shit done by him is for readers pleasure, something people are in no haste to point out with db.
> 
> Him moving faster than timeless movement, well i want to know how they actually worked that out, i don't really value that scan that much to be truthful.
> 
> Anyway, i give this match to Goku, he could just go air bourn and blitz the lower ground, from what i have seen flash can not actually fly, once he is in the air he can hide in the clouds to make flash throwing objects more difficult, he can then blitz the lower ground, since his blast can hit the ground in less than a second he can time them really fast to blow of huge chunks and set it up in a way that flash can not escape.



Except he will be killed before he can even get off the ground, and if he does, Flash will just jump up and kill him.

Goku is so slow he would appear completely frozen from the Flash's perspective.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Not it isn't the blast hit the earth in less than a second and blow a set chunk out, if he spams them he could lead explosions all over which he couldn't dodge. We know the blast in dbz move fast as a kamehameha reached the moon in about 2 seconds, that is close to light speed. People underate too much how fast the actuall ki blasts move.
> 
> Oh and does someone know how fast lightning moves, as goku was able to dodge that in DBZ, obviously as the series went on what he could doge increased.



Yet we never saw a blast ever go that fast again.

And Flash will kill him before he can even think of firing one.


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2006)

> Only a fanboy would argue that something is impossible to beat.



You are being a fanboy none the less, i probably am thinking about it, what i dislike about you though is you act as though you are above it, you claim certain things piss you off and you do the exact samething, what i am refering to? well some of your claims on Flash's feats can be considered the authors exageration ( or what ever it goes by) people point that out all the time with DB when it suits them ( if you are not one of those person i apologise) yet you hold them down with all seriousness in a debate.


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## Keollyn (Jul 14, 2006)

Even if Flash isn't as fast as Mike says, he's DEFINITELY faster than light. Kakarotto isn't. Shunkan Ido is instant, yes, but the fact that Kakarotto's mind doesn't work instantly means that blitzing even Kakarotto with that technique wouldn't be hard for Flash.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> You are being a fanboy none the less, i probably am thinking about it, what i dislike about you though is you act as though you are above it, you claim certain things piss you off and you do the exact samething, what i am refering to? well some of your claims on Flash's feats can be considered the authors exageration ( or what ever it goes by) people point that out all the time with DB when it suits them ( if you are not one of those person i apologise) yet you hold them down with all seriousness in a debate.



When have I ever stated that in DBZ, authorial fiat overrides actual events?

If anything I have insisted on using the evidence of actual events over statements that could easily be hyperbole.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 14, 2006)

> Yet we never saw a blast ever go that fast again.



(To play Devil's advocate).

Maybe we did and it was shown relative to the fighter's reflex speed? Heck Goku extended his staff to the moon in a short space of time. The series is whacky like that.

I'm pretty sure Goku could dodge Roshi's Kamehameha easily by the end of DBZ.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 14, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Not it isn't the blast hit the earth in less than a second and blow a set chunk out, if he spams them he could lead explosions all over which he couldn't dodge. We know the blast in dbz move fast as a kamehameha reached the moon in about 2 seconds, that is close to light speed. People underate too much how fast the actuall ki blasts move.
> 
> Oh and does someone know how fast lightning moves, as goku was able to dodge that in DBZ, obviously as the series went on what he could doge increased.




Except the Flash can run to the other side of the planet before the first two second blast hits and then come back when Goku realizes he's not there.

Lightning is like, 1/70th the speed of light I think. Not sure, but I do know that it is alot slower than the speed light.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

Delta Shell said:
			
		

> (To play Devil's advocate).
> 
> Maybe we did and it was shown relative to the fighter's reflex speed? Heck Goku extended his staff to the moon in a short space of time. The series is whacky like that.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Goku could dodge Roshi's Kamehameha easily by the end of DBZ.



In that specific instance, there was a panel where a random bystander reacted to the blast before it hit.

That proves it moved slow at first but then accelerated.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 14, 2006)

He fired it straight at the moon.


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2006)

> Except he will be killed before he can even get off the ground, and if he does, Flash will just jump up and kill him.
> 
> Goku is so slow he would appear completely frozen from the Flash's perspective.



For a start Goku isn't that slow and he would not appear frozen to the flash, that is point one.

Point two Goku was able to dodge lightning early in the series, by the end of z im sure it exceeded light movement which he could dodge.

Point 3 his ki wave attacks can move close or faster than light speed with a high destructive power, he would get in the air before flash could get him, and he would ass raid the ground with ki blasts.


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2006)

> Except the Flash can run to the other side of the planet before the first two second blast hits and then come back when Goku realizes he's not there.
> 
> Lightning is like, 1/70th the speed of light I think. Not sure, but I do know that it is alot slower than the speed light.



Considering the blast can destroy a great deal of the earth and move somewhat close to light, i think the actuall beam would miss flash, but then goku could time others to meat him, anyway it is the area of the explosion which would prove dangerous, he would find himself running into explosions.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 14, 2006)

It was never said that ki blasts move at lightspeed. Saying that the Kamehameha reached the moon in two seconds is an exaggeration.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 14, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Considering the blast can destroy a great deal of the earth and move somewhat close to light, i think the actuall beam would miss flash, but then goku could time others to meat him, anyway it is the area of the explosion which would prove dangerous, he would find himself running into explosions.



If Flash dodges the first blast, none of the others will work. Unless the first one hits, Flash is on the other side of the planet. He IS indeed that fast.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> For a start Goku isn't that slow and he would not appear frozen to the flash, that is point one.
> 
> Point two Goku was able to dodge lightning early in the series, by the end of z im sure it exceeded light movement which he could dodge.
> 
> Point 3 his ki wave attacks can move close or faster than light speed with a high destructive power, he would get in the air before flash could get him, and he would ass raid the ground with ki blasts.



Um, yes he would.

Flash can move multiple times lightspeed (lightning is much slower than light) and ki blasts never travel that fast except in a few rare instances.


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2006)

> It was never said that ki blasts move at lightspeed. Saying that the Kamehameha reached the moon in two seconds is an exaggeration.



No it happened so it isn't an exageration, if i was to be cruel i woul say a maximum of 10 seconds, but from what i saw i take it as 2 seconds. 1....2....



> If Flash dodges the first blast, none of the others will work. Unless the first one hits, Flash is on the other side of the planet. He IS indeed that fast.



Um yes they would because he would scatter them, if he would move to fast he would end up running into previos explosions he tried running from, like i said ass raid the planet, at the speed of ki blast i don't see him escaping.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 14, 2006)

> Um yes they would because he would scatter them, if he would move to fast he would end up running into previos explosions he tried running from, like i said ass raid the planet, at the speed of ki blast i don't see him escaping.



You greatly underestimate the Flash's speed.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

At the start of the fight, Flash runs up before Goku can react and steals his speed.

Fight over.


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2006)

> Um, yes he would.
> 
> Flash can move multiple times lightspeed (lightning is much slower than light) and ki blasts never travel that fast except in a few rare instances.



They were moving near that speed from db first tournement. So it isn't rare instances from that moment onwards blast were either greater or equal, i go with greater since Goku could dodge them that time, but later on still got hit when he increased his speed beyond certain people's vision.

Flash doesn't move multiple times lightspeed, he moves at lightspeed, if i take into account him moving lightspeed i might change my though, but i don't actually think he moves above lightspeed, from what i see he gets ripped into the speed force if he transends light speed.

And it isn't how fast the Ki blast move i am talking about Goku firing the blast so the whole surface of the earth would be covered in explosions, since he would for a breif period of time there would be no area without an explosion he would get hit.


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2006)

> You greatly underestimate the Flash's speed.



You are greatly overrating it, or underating what the characters in dbz are capable of.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 14, 2006)

He does move multiple times lightspeed, he's moved faster than light all the time, Wally much more so than the others.

And most of the time we can clearly see the ki blasts moving, and it can't be slowed down since everything in the environment and background are still moving at normal speed and not frozen.

Flash just kills Goku before Goku can even react or do anything.


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## Keollyn (Jul 14, 2006)

Let's see... who would win? A turtle (Goku) or a cheetah (Flash)

Clearly the turtle would buttrape the cheetah.... Wait, what!?


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2006)

> He does move multiple times lightspeed, he's moved faster than light all the time, Wally much more so than the others.
> 
> And most of the time we can clearly see the ki blasts moving, and it can't be slowed down since everything in the environment and background are still moving at normal speed and not frozen.
> 
> Flash just kills Goku before Goku can even react or do anything.



Well i don't know how it pans, i know how fast the blast can move in a distance, i guess the explanation is dbz characters in general are greater than ours, even the normal humans.

We know Goku can move faster than lighting, we know that his speed increased greatly from the point he died to vegita. We then know he was out of peoples vision in short bursts who are able to lock on to ki blasts moving light speed. He would be able reach the air intime to raid the ground. You are heavily underestimating the dbz characters precognition and their ability to dodge. You are overrating the flash moving at light speed isn't something he does, i don't even think he can do so.



> Let's see... who would win? A turtle (Goku) or a cheetah (Flash)
> 
> Clearly the turtle would buttrape the cheetah.... Wait, what!?



I know someone's  hopping on the bandwagon.


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## Keollyn (Jul 14, 2006)

Well I do prefer to hop on the ACCURATE bandwagon, so yeah, you're right.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 14, 2006)

> And it isn't how fast the Ki blast move i am talking about Goku firing the blast so the whole surface of the earth would be covered in explosions, since he would for a breif period of time there would be no area without an explosion he would get hit.



Goku couldn't send a ki blast everywhere on the planet. If he's going to try, he might as well blow up the planet.

I understand what you're trying to say. I'm saying that the Flash is fast enough to avoid the explosions. Even if the ki blasts move at lightspeed, Goku does not. The explosions won't all explode at the same time, as each ki blast would be behind each other by at least a second. More than enough time for Flash to avoid an explosion, see where another is coming from, and get to saftey again.


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## Gunners (Jul 14, 2006)

> Well I do prefer to hop on the ACCURATE bandwagon, so yeah, you're right.



But it nothing has been defined as right, unless you beleive majoriy=correctness, you don't even add any points you just make little one liners seeking to gain someones attention.



> Goku couldn't send a ki blast everywhere on the planet. If he's going to try, he might as well blow up the planet.



Ah no, the diffrence is, if he blew up the earth he would die, all he needs to do is make sure the whole surface is exploding at the same exact time, so he has no where to run.



> I understand what you're trying to say. I'm saying that the Flash is fast enough to avoid the explosions. Even if the ki blasts move at lightspeed, Goku does not. The explosions won't all explode at the same time, as each ki blast would be behind each other by at least a second. More than enough time for Flash to avoid an explosion, see where another is coming from, and get to saftey again.



Once the ki is emited, it will spread a large radius and linger for a while, if he pushes it all over in a fast time, it will eventually cover the earth in a ki explosion where there is no area to run, thus flash would get hit and die.

Anyway, im off to sleep.


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## Keollyn (Jul 14, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> But it nothing has been defined as right, unless you beleive majoriy=correctness, you don't even add any points you just make little one liners seeking to gain someones attention.



Ive never really known myself to follow other people's opinion. I feel that Goku can't beat Flash, and just because others feel the same way, I'm a follower? WTF kind of shit is that? Should I say you're on the Goku bandwagon and can't think for yourself then?


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 14, 2006)

----
Superman is the best example of why speed stealing is not necessarily a clincher in this fight and is of little cosequence. While flying along Flash, Flash explained what would happen if he stole Superman's speed at that moment. He stated that Superman would simply skid forward, all the way to another country, due to his velocity, and other such mumbo jumbo.  That is how the stealing of Speed works, Flash steals your velocity, while you're moving, normally at high speeds. If this were done on a regular human though, thx to their much lower speed perception and such, it would they be like they'd become frozen in time. Hence the notion of Speed stealing freezing time for people...:amazed 

Anyway, what you've stated Endlessmike is wrong. Flash would not simply run up to Goku,  who would already be immobile to him, and then attempt to steal his speed. This is because Goku wouldn't even have moved yet, because he is to slow to keep up with Flash Speed blitzing him. In raw speed, and speed reaction, no one is as good as Flash, ever.  But wait, so how is that not a clincher you may ask. Ahem, the reason I say the speed stealing is not that big an issue is because in Dbz, they have psychic predicting like abilties. I'm not saying somewhat, I'm saying entirely. Goku touching Krillin and simply knowing everythign that went down is proof enough. In that sense, Goku has somewhat of a Manhunter kind of stich. What I man by that is that he may know what is coming and possibly how, so it increases reaction, as opposed to action. He would also know what the Flash may do. The only problem with all this though is that it changes nothing, because he cannot defend against it. Because unlike Manhunter, Goku has no way of touching the flash or rendering him immobile. 

So yeah,  Goku has no chance of survivng if Flash wants to speed blitz him. Superman reaction is considered sub par when compared to the Flash. Flash is above them both. Also, Goku has no chance if Flash uses any number of his bag of tricks. In theory, Flash could simply vibrate the air within the vicinity of Goku and remove the oxygen . No seriously, Flash is that broken. Better yet, Flash could get him onto the Speedforce... and take him to his death. Literally. He could strand him where ever he wants, or simply bring him to the end of the universe. Hes's done it before. Flash could also run back in time and attack Goku prior to them ven meeting. Flash could attack in a way so as to simply atomize Goku. One last thing, that I'm going to list that is, once the Ki blast is dodge full on, it becomes useless against Flash. This is because he can vibrate through explosion, or any non direct damage it may do. As to whether he could vibrate through the blast itself, that's speculation and would require exhaustive comparison. (Mostly because it is a fact Flash cannot vibrate through psychic energy and I think there's some other type, and or clause in there.) Rawrrrr! I'd honestly like someone in support of Goku to try and refute this paragraph, and tell me why they still think Goku can beat Flash. Flash is to broken. Goku has no chance. Even if he aimed to blow up the planet and was given time to do so, Flash would still win. Thx to his nifty old speed force broken abilties. Seriously, can you say broken.


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## Samurai Man (Jul 14, 2006)

heyyyyyyyy someone just neg rep me and didint put his/her username comeon i just said that goku takes this one like almost everyone else

-----------
i dont speak english very well cause im learning


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## Phenomenol (Jul 14, 2006)

> Superman reaction is considered sub par when compared to the Flash. Flash is above them both. Also, Goku has no chance if Flash uses any number of his bag of tricks



That is tough talk. You claim Flash is so fast yet he takes Physical beat downs From Gorilla Grodd and the Rogues. Lets not even talk about how Doom just punched the Flash and Died! Yeah the Flash's reactions can not be beat huh?:amazed 

Goku can predict the Flash's movements and Goku easily has faster than light reflexes. 

@Endless Mike, whatt you are saying is that The Flash is faster than Shunkan Idou which is crap.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 14, 2006)

Shika shika boo said:
			
		

> ----
> Superman is the best example of why speed stealing is not necessarily a clincher in this fight and is of little cosequence. While flying along Flash, Flash explained what would happen if he stole Superman's speed at that moment. He stated that Superman would simply skid forward, all the way to another country, due to his velocity, and other such mumbo jumbo.  That is how the stealing of Speed works, Flash steals your velocity, while you're moving, normally at high speeds. If this were done on a regular human though, thx to their much lower speed perception and such, it would they be like they'd become frozen in time. Hence the notion of Speed stealing freezing time for people...:amazed
> 
> Anyway, what you've stated Endlessmike is wrong. Flash would not simply run up to Goku,  who would already be immobile to him, and then attempt to steal his speed. This is because Goku wouldn't even have moved yet, because he is to slow to keep up with Flash Speed blitzing him. In raw speed, and speed reaction, no one is as good as Flash, ever.  But wait, so how is that not a clincher you may ask. Ahem, the reason I say the speed stealing is not that big an issue is because in Dbz, they have psychic predicting like abilties. I'm not saying somewhat, I'm saying entirely. Goku touching Krillin and simply knowing everythign that went down is proof enough. In that sense, Goku has somewhat of a Manhunter kind of stich. What I man by that is that he may know what is coming and possibly how, so it increases reaction, as opposed to action. He would also know what the Flash may do. The only problem with all this though is that it changes nothing, because he cannot defend against it. Because unlike Manhunter, Goku has no way of touching the flash or rendering him immobile.
> ...




And then came Phenomenel.

EDIT: I knew it!


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## Kisame. (Jul 14, 2006)

yeah flash wins. I dont even feel like explaining why.


Ima go with flash runs so fast goku head explodes from sheer awesomeness


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

You can't explain why.


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## superbatman86 (Jul 15, 2006)

Well seeing as the Flash ALWAYS needs momentum to even reach any kind of comparable speed to what Goku moves at he loses.The Flash has probably the 3rd or 4th top speed ever but it takes time for him to get there unless he steals someone else with the speed forces speed.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

Back from watching Pirates of the Carribean 2. Recommend it.

Sigh. . . so much on my plate.

-Goku vs. Superman; reviewing episodes for present and future threads
-re-reading Infinity Gauntlet in debating against tHotU
-editing the Saint Seiya translations
-real life

I wonder whether I should participate in this thread. . . lord knows if I do, I won't stop. . .

Which Flash are we using?

He bloodlusted or in-character?


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Who knows? The thread starter never said.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 15, 2006)

Dude, I'd drop the tHotU debate until he can explain why Omni doesn't mean Omni... but does... but doesn't. Anyone who says that the Beyonder somehow has ultimate power in the DC universe and can't actually use his own debate isn't worth your time.

Of course, my time is different. But not yours.

Edit: And Flash wins for numerous reasons already stated. All he needs to do is start stealing speed right off the bat and Goku is done for. He'll just speed blitz him into oblivion.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

_Dude, I'd drop the tHotU debate until he can explain why Omni doesn't mean Omni... but does... but doesn't._

Well, it's hard for me to.

That debate irks me even more than the Superman vs. Goku one. The fact that he's stating the Gauntlet to be multiversal is plain wrong -- and I hate inaccuracy when it can be avoided.

It also pisses me off since I have to debate against _another forum's argument_ in order to debate against him.

_Anyone who says that the Beyonder somehow has ultimate power in the DC universe and can't actually use his own debate isn't worth your time._

The fact that he hasn't even read the Infinity Gauntlet makes it worst.

Regardless, I still hate such inaccuracy and mistakes like that.

_Of course, my time is different. But not yours._

True.

_Edit: And Flash wins for numerous reasons already stated. All he needs to do is start stealing speed right off the bat and Goku is done for. He'll just speed blitz him into oblivion._

Well. . . in terms of Wally's character, I can see that.

Of course, I have every Wally Flash comic in my computer; all 230 issues + specials + secret files.

Though, the thought of sitting down and reading them all really disheartens one from actually doing it, even though it would be a great repetoire of Flash knowledge.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> That debate irks me even more than the Superman vs. Goku one. Of course, I have every Wally Flash comic in my computer; all 230 issues + specials + secret files.
> 
> Though, the thought of sitting down and reading them all really disheartens one from actually doing it, even though it would be a great repetoire of Flash knowledge.



You can give up the Goku vs. Superman bout! Comic Book Guy. Theri is nothing Superman can do. 

The Flash is fast super fast which is an understatement, but he aint beating Goku in physical combat!


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> The Flash is fast super fast which is an understatement, but he aint beating Goku in physical combat!




He doesn't have to.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Yes he does.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yes he does.



He could just vibrate his finger through Goku's brain and make his head explode.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

_You can give up the Goku vs. Superman bout! Comic Book Guy. Theri is nothing Superman can do. _

You really don't know me that well, do you?

Last time I checked, I was the last person who posted in the topic. Which means I'm still interested.

_The Flash is fast super fast which is an understatement, but he aint beating Goku in physical combat!_

Physical combat is not the only way in which fights can be settled.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 15, 2006)

I believe I posted in the Superman vs. Goku thread (or one of them) a comic where Wally was testing Clark's new speed as "Energy Superman". He ran from Buenos Aires to I think it was China in .003 seconds (And saved someone on the way), and it calculated to way, WAY over lightspeed.

I honestly don't understand how Goku can even think to beat the master of speed. Hell, Quicksilver in the Ultimate Universe was able to get HUGE air to get Thor's belt. Wally could get WAY more than that given his speed. DBZ has never been shown to be nearly as fast as most comic books, and there is little to nothing to show that it has broken the light-speed barrier. Simply "FIGHTING REALLY, REALLY FAST" doesn't qualify, and there's nothing to prove that their speed has been exponentially growing.

Another point to make is that XS (A relative of Wally in the future) was able to steal the speed of an entire planet, including its inhabitants, so as to save it from a horrible disease (If I remember it correctly). For Wally, someone who is directly connected to the Speed Force, this wouldn't be a huge feat. Thusly, he doesn't need to touch Goku, he just needs to steal the speed of the planet to freeze him.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> You really don't know me that well, do you?
> 
> *Yes I do you are my rival! You are the pitbull and you never let go, you never give up. I like that in my opponents. *
> 
> Physical combat is not the only way in which fights can be settled.



Well hell, I can name alot of people who Koed Flash, and most of them were weaker than Spiderman.:amazed


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

Which is why I specifically ask which version are we using, and whether he's IC or OOC.


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## conceptz (Jul 15, 2006)

I hope THE FLASH movie pulls through.


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## Kuya (Jul 15, 2006)

conceptz said:
			
		

> I hope THE FLASH movie pulls through.



there's gonna be a movie? nice.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

I don't know.

After Superman Returns. . . I lost faith in comic book adaptions.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Which is why I specifically ask which version are we using, and whether he's IC or OOC.



Does not matter, Hell someone tried to use examples of The Flash from JLA! Whatever.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Jul 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Of course, I have every Wally Flash comic in my computer; all 230 issues + specials + secret files.
> 
> Though, the thought of sitting down and reading them all really disheartens one from actually doing it, even though it would be a great repetoire of Flash knowledge.



If it makes it any easier you can probably just skip a lot of the beginning stuff and go straight to where Mark Waid starts writing the Flash. Thats really when Wally becomes Wally in my book, Mark Waid's Flash = *THE* Flash, all others after are just imitations (although some are some very good imitations ) He starts at issue 62 with "Flash: Year One" which retells Wally's origin story and years as Kid Flash. Heck, you can even probably skip to issue 75 (Return of Barry Allen which is a very good arc) or even issue 92 (Which IMO starts the more modern era of Flash with the introduction of Bart Allen aka Impulse).

Anyways, Ive read a significant portion of Wally's run as Flash and consider myself to be somewhat of a self proclaimed expert on Wally and the Flash  If anyone wants to check any validaty of anything involving Flash you can run it past me and I can try to give a non-biased response (as non-biased as possible considering he is my favorite character lol) and I will include issue numbers and scans if needed, as long as context which is important to understanding scans.


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## warrior1000 (Jul 15, 2006)

Goku would totally kill Flash.

I been reading all the replies in this tread, you guys are totally under-estimating Goku's abilities. Goku is pretty fast on his own, if you say Flash can go the speed of light, Goku can go warp speed. Even is Flash avoids Goku's ki blasts and go around the world, Goku can simplily blow up the world, and there goes Flash, and Gokucan instant transmit to another planet, he survives, flash dies.


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## Kisame. (Jul 15, 2006)

> Even is Flash avoids Goku's ki blasts and go around the world, Goku can simplily blow up the world, and there goes Flash, and Gokucan instant transmit to another planet, he survives, flash dies.



................................................................


Okay your obiviously a Dbz fan.


by the time it takes Goku to even think that the fight has begun flash could have.


1. Gone back in time and killed goku as soon as he came to earth
2. grabbed some object and rammed it through gokus heart
3. Vibrated his body through goku and made him explode
4. picked up goku and left him in the speedforce
5. kicked goku in the nuts and made a wise crack
6. waited those eons for goku to charge up a planet exploding blast and took goku and moved him in front of it.

etc...


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## Dark Evangel (Jul 15, 2006)

warrior1000 said:
			
		

> Goku would totally kill Flash.
> 
> I been reading all the replies in this tread, you guys are totally under-estimating Goku's abilities. Goku is pretty fast on his own, if you say Flash can go the speed of light, Goku can go warp speed. Even is Flash avoids Goku's ki blasts and go around the world, Goku can simplily blow up the world, and there goes Flash, and Gokucan instant transmit to another planet, he survives, flash dies.


And what makes you think Flash would just stand there waiting for Goku to blew the world. Goku needs to charge up before doing such attacks thus Flash could just simply hit him since he is still not immune to physical attacks or steal his speed to cancel Goku's kamehameha.


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## warrior1000 (Jul 15, 2006)

Leaf_Jutsu said:
			
		

> And what makes you think Flash would just stand there waiting for Goku to blew the world. Goku needs to charge up before doing such attacks thus Flash could just simply hit him since he is still not immune to physical attacks or steal his speed to cancel Goku's kamehameha.




Goku's in the air, and where would Flash go or do, he cant fly, and he does not have much physical strenght, and don't give me a stupid answer like Flash will jump and kill goku, Flash can't fly, so  jumping would limit his movement in the air, Goku would own the flash in the air. Goku doesn't need to power up that much to blow up a planet, Vegita did it with just two finger and this is when he and nappa were going to earth.


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## Kisame. (Jul 15, 2006)

goku doesnt start in the air....

the match starts. .00001 sec later flash ends the fight.


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## warrior1000 (Jul 15, 2006)

Kisame said:
			
		

> goku doesnt start in the air....
> 
> the match starts. .00001 sec later flash ends the fight.



You are saying Goku is slow as a snail, have you not seen Dbz, i would say all the fight that happen after goku goes ssj2 are faster than the speed of light.


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## Kisame. (Jul 15, 2006)

> You are saying Goku is slow as a snail, have you not seen Dbz, i would say all the fight that happen after goku goes ssj2 are faster than the speed of light.



It takes time to think to go ssj2.

Flash is beyond speed of dbz.


Flash is so ridiculous in speed this match could be over before it started...literally.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

ah what a joke
even if comics heros are crap , goku win this
goku is as fast as flash , plz , he can fly around the earth 10x within 1 sec like goten did
if u take everything , then go take everything , goten did it just after the fusion

and flash , even at lightening speed couldnt even scratch goku , goku can take blowing up planets and universe punch , or beam , what flash can do? ahah :lol:


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## Renegade (Jul 15, 2006)

Well if the Flash can move faster than the speed of light, and much faster than Goku. Then since speed contributes energy, i'de give this to the Flash. All the added speed to his punch or kick would completely devestate Goku.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

we are talking about goku , not a common guys ....


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## Renegade (Jul 15, 2006)

> we are talking about goku , not a common guys ....


The Flash exceeds Goku in speed. Speed contributes to the energy of an attack. He can hit harder and move faster than Goku.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

It could be right if they have the SAME power without speed

but Goku's raw power is 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 bigger than flash , i dont even think , in fact im sure () that even with his speed , hes faaar from goku's power


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## Renegade (Jul 15, 2006)

> It could be right if they have the SAME power without speed
> 
> but Goku's raw power is 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 bigger than flash , i dont even think , in fact im sure () that even with his speed , hes faaar from goku's power


It's true that goku is *stronger* than the flash, but that doesn't mean he can hit harder. He might be able to choke him really good, or other things of that sort, but he won't be able to hit harder than him.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Damn i really do hate comics hero ^^ 
Yo know , goku has infinite power , speed and everything u want , i just wanted to make it clear , if toryama stop DBZ , thats because they dont know any limits....always becoming stronger....if they just had as much time as comics hero, i cant even imagine their power/speeds 

But still , Goku can fly around the earth 10 times ,(the whole planet) in ONE second, its already freakin fast

+ 1000000000000000000 power than flash


I think  bit slower (even if i dont think so , u guys do ) + 1000000000000000 strengh > a bit faster


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## Endless Mike (Jul 15, 2006)

Goku can't fly around the earth 10 times in one second.

He never did that ever.

Gotenks took several minutes to fly around the earth a few times.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

watch the anime again

u see the earth from outside , then something flying around it very fast in few second (ok not one )

proof?



And this is not even ssj3 which is 10x , maybe more stronger / faster than SSJ1
and goku went SSJ4 , maybe 100x stronger/faster than SSJ1?


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## Gunners (Jul 15, 2006)

> Goku can't fly around the earth 10 times in one second.
> 
> He never did that ever.
> 
> Gotenks took several minutes to fly around the earth a few times.



Actually we don't know the amount of time, we know what it is less than, and we know the minimum amount he circuited.

Anyway, Flash would ''run up to flash and kill him'' dbz characters are able to dodge objects comming in light speed, shown by them dodging Kamehameha blasts. Flash can not fly, so Goku would just make his way to the sky, transform and raid the earth below him.


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## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Ki blasts do not move at lightspeed.

DBZ characters do not achieve, or exceed lightspeed in battle, save for IT.


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## Gunners (Jul 15, 2006)

> Ki blasts do not move at lightspeed.
> 
> DBZ characters do not achieve, or exceed lightspeed in battle, save for IT.



Yeh they do, one kid blast reached the moon in what about 2 seconds.


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## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Show me proof of this.

And the average distance between moon and earth is still 384,403 km, which at two seconds would mean the ki blast is still below lightspeed.


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## Gunners (Jul 15, 2006)

> Show me proof of this.
> 
> And the average distance between moon and earth is still 384,403 km, which at two seconds would mean the ki blast is still below lightspeed.



I have posted the picture before, i can't bebothered to get my disk and upload the picture, i will describe the scene, whem Roshi blew up the moon to stop ape goku in the finals.

We know they can dodge lightning at close speed, i'm not sure how fast that it, but it is the speed they can dodge from right up close. 

I don't think Flash would ''speed blitz'' him like you say, no i think he would charge forward goku would dodge, or time a punch that could hit him, he would then fly in the air, go to the clouds so flash can not seen him, and make the earth rain with ki blasts.


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## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

I have the DB volume of that match, at it doesn't appear to happen in two seconds.

But even so, the Flash can move faster than Goku can think.


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## Gunners (Jul 15, 2006)

> I have the DB volume of that match, at it doesn't appear to happen in two seconds.



To me it does, that is how i take it in.. Regardless they move at fast speeds, meaning flash would not be able to charge at them with his leisure.

People are high underestimating db character. By the end of z i would asume attacks moved faster than then, due to characters not dodging but easily dodging earlier blast. In close range combat, the dbz characters might not move light speed, but imo they get close to it.

Flash has speed, at the same time Goku has ki strength, and other props what people seem to forget, he isn't a slug either, to the flash he might appear to move slow, but not hyper slow he would still make movements forcing the flash to move out the way relatively fast for his standards.


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## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

The Flash can move at several times the speed of light, this is much faster than the body even uses the fastest reflexes, let alone thought, so Goku has little chance of even thinking of something to do before Flash reaches him.

DBZ characters do move faster than light, but not anywhere near lightspeed with out IT.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 15, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Actually we don't know the amount of time, we know what it is less than, and we know the minimum amount he circuited.
> 
> Anyway, Flash would ''run up to flash and kill him'' dbz characters are able to dodge objects comming in light speed, shown by them dodging Kamehameha blasts. Flash can not fly, so Goku would just make his way to the sky, transform and raid the earth below him.



Ki blasts never move very fast at all except in rare circumstances.

Usually they only move a few dozen meters per second.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 15, 2006)

In that clip he flew around the world 9 times in about 7 seconds.

That's way slower than lightspeed.

Not to mention it is contradicted by the manga, where he only flies around the world 5 times in a maximum of 30 minutes.


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## Gunners (Jul 15, 2006)

> The Flash can move at several times the speed of light, this is much faster than the body even uses the fastest reflexes, let alone thought, so Goku has little chance of even thinking of something to do before Flash reaches him.
> 
> DBZ characters do move faster than light, but not anywhere near lightspeed with out IT.



For one dbz characters can think faster than normal humans, lets get that point out in the open.

Two i don't actually think flash can above lightspeed, the same group of people are always quick to point out it is impossible, i know he has the speedforce, i just beleived the moment he went lightspeed that is where he went.



> Ki blasts never move very fast at all except in rare circumstances.
> 
> Usually they only move a few dozen meters per second.



Remember fights are slowed down for the audience, and they move the same speeed or faster, otherwise they wouldn't be able to hit after one guy makes an increase in speed.



> Not to mention it is contradicted by the manga, where he only flies around the world 5 times in a maximum of 30 minutes.



Not it isn't contradicted, as it says maximum, that could have been the authors intent to show how fast he was moving in a short space of time, diffrent people can take it diffrent ways, one of the areas where an opinion comes to play.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> In that clip he flew around the world 9 times in about 7 seconds.
> 
> That's way slower than lightspeed.
> 
> Not to mention it is contradicted by the manga, where he only flies around the world 5 times in a maximum of 30 minutes.



9 times in 7sec
And hes SSJ 1 , take 10x for ssj3 , and take 100x for ssj4 
in DBZ , they always train strengh AND speed together
so in SSj4 he can do 900 times in 7s i think ?

Coz we all know how much every transformation affect speed/strengh in DBZ


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## Endless Mike (Jul 15, 2006)

THe fights are not slowed down for the audience, we can clearly see random stuff in the background moving and many times we see civilians reacting to it.

And the Flash can go much faster than c, it has been shown multiple times.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

fights are slowed down....
there is the same difference in speed between goku when 1st fight with vegeta, /goku SSJ3 , and an ant with flash 
anyway , all the fight , goku vs vegeta , goku friezer , goku cell , goku boo , looks like the same speed , for the audience...


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## Gunners (Jul 15, 2006)

> THe fights are not slowed down for the audience, we can clearly see random stuff in the background moving and many times we see civilians reacting to it.
> 
> And the Flash can go much faster than c, it has been shown multiple times.
> __________________



I theorise the mortals of dbz move faster than we do.

No once again i see this a you pointing out mistakes or trivial things from dbz yet bipassing it for the flash.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 15, 2006)

That's completely unfounded speculation with no evidence whatsoever.

If normal people in DBZ could really move at superspeed, what would they need cars for?


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That's completely unfounded speculation with no evidence whatsoever.



Same for 80% of posts here...speculation


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## konflikti (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> Same for 80% of posts here...speculation



Stop posting so much.

I'm obviously saying Flash. Pro-Flash posters have posted much more insightful posts than the pro-Goku posters.

Anyways, people should stop posting these threads where people who have actually read comics can tell the winner right away(generalization, don't feel offended), while the non-familiar-with-comics drag the discussion to no endy(generalization, don't feel offended).


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## Gunners (Jul 15, 2006)

> That's completely unfounded speculation with no evidence whatsoever.
> 
> If normal people in DBZ could really move at superspeed, what would they need cars for?



because the cars move faster, and distance etc. Like i said, i was making that up on the spot, the main point was how you figure pick and choose points, wheen a dbz character does a great feat, authors fuck up, when something like this appears you take it as gold.



> Anyways, people should stop posting these threads where people who have actually read comics can tell the winner right away(generalization, don't feel offended), while the non-familiar-with-comics drag the discussion to no endy(generalization, don't feel offended).



But the match isn't instantly decided, yes he can move at the speed of light, but he can not fly, all goku needs to do is dodge him and go airbourne in the clouds where he can not see him. And i beleive Goku would be able to dodge him, he is able to dodge ki blast which travel at speeds close to light.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Stop posting so much.


konflikti
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 745 


kombak
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 115



Anyway , pro comics dont have more , and better arguments as far as i can see



edit : For exemple , take saint seiya
By the end of the show, theyre moving a LOT faster than speed of light....

But when they are fighting , do u feel such speed? NO
why? audience...we have to see whats going on
But we know that in fact , they move at lightspeed and even a lot more after.

And  at lightspeed  , whats their strengh? 
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< any dbz fighter strengh ( physical strengh
take a Pegase meteor , or comete if u want , against a Broly punch... )


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## Renegade (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> watch the anime again
> 
> u see the earth from outside , then something flying around it very fast in few second (ok not one )
> 
> ...


That's the anime... not the manga. The anime can fuck up a lot of things. An example is from Naruto during the Neji and Naruto battle, there was a smoke cloud in the end and the anime made it look as if they were flying into the smoke cloud instead of out of the smoke cloud, which is what happened in the manga.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Renegade78 said:
			
		

> That's the anime... not the manga.



and so what? its a fight here
we can take manga , anime , and OAV, movies....


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## konflikti (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> konflikti
> Join Date: Aug 2005
> Posts: 745
> 
> ...


You fail at understanding the joke. Broly is filler(not canon). No one cares about filler.

In relative universe, speed increases mass. Something moving at the speed of light would have infinite mass. Thus, Flash hitting with Infinite Mass Punches. Infinite > number.


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## Renegade (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> and so what? its a fight here
> we can take manga , anime , and OAV, movies....


The anime can fuck up a lot of things. An example is from Naruto during the Neji and Naruto battle, there was a smoke cloud in the end and the anime made it look as if they were flying *into* the smoke cloud instead of *out* of it, which is how it was suppose to happen and how it happened in the manga.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

It doesnt really matter dbz are moving at speed of light too , same for saint seiya , which has been stated...

do you really see , a lightspeed pegasus ryu seiken , killing goku ?

and base seiya strengh >>>>> flash  (without moving) no?


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## Renegade (Jul 15, 2006)

^ Wouldn't know, I hate Saint Seiya... couldn't get passed reading the first chapter .


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## konflikti (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> It doesnt really matter dbz are moving at speed of light too , same for saint seiya , which has been stated...
> 
> do you really see , a lightspeed pegasus ryu seiken , killing goku ?
> 
> and base seiya strengh >>>>> flash  (without moving) no?



Yes, most people are stronger than Flash without his powers, while the opponents have their own. Doesnt matter too much though.

DBZ doesn't move ftl. Saint Seiya does. There is lengthy DBZ vs. Saint Seiya thread somewhere. There is also lenghty DBZ speed thread on Meta, which was closed since there was no new info.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

I just reminded something 
didnt Goku & cooler fought , during teleport in the movie? (vegeta couldnt )


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## Renegade (Jul 15, 2006)

I don't think movies are cannon...


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## konflikti (Jul 15, 2006)

Renegade78 said:
			
		

> I don't think movies are cannon...


Correct. Only orginal DB and DBZ manga are. Since they actually are straight from AT.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Fights here are "all we know " on the guys fighting  , i think taking oav , and anime isnt bad....

Is that the same guy , who created flash, still writing it? same for other comics heros...i hope u see my point

and if i remind , Goku & cooler were fighting , at teleport speed


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## The Wanderer (Jul 15, 2006)

Flash wins, all reasons stated by Endless Mike and co. And btw, you pro Goku supporters are making the DBZ fandom look bad : / 

Sadly for you guys, Goku cannot win this fight,  he isn't fast enough to even star to move before is face is melted, literally . Flash supporters provided enough info to reach that conclusion. The problem with you is that you don't want someone to burst your bubble, where "Goku > all".

And kombak (and all pro-Goku people), please post some pictures backing up your claims, "all show no substance posts" can help you so far.


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## ydraliskos (Jul 15, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> In relative universe, speed increases mass. Something moving at the speed of light would have infinite mass. Thus, Flash hitting with Infinite Mass Punches. Infinite > number.



What makes you think speed increases mass in Flash's universe?  If other laws oh physics obviously don't apply(ftl), why should this particular one do? 

You can't go out and say that something is FTL, then use actual physics to prove points, since you already disregarded actual physics to reach FTL.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

I dont see any reason that say this.... sorry
and im not pro goku kk thx , some proof? i gave ....

-9 times the earth in 7s at SSJ1 , just think about SSJ 2 / 3 / 4 which is about..10 times stronger/faster each transformation? (and this is also a fact)

-Teleport fighting in a movie and teleport >>>>>>>>>>> faster than speed of light

-Lighting speed doesnt give u such a tremendous raw power , proof? saint seiya , they are moving at this speed and a lot faster by the end , and we saw what can they do (physical damage) with that speed


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## Renegade (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> Fights here are "all we know " on the guys fighting  , i think taking oav , and anime isnt bad....


well considering OAVs and movies are not cannon, you cannot include them... Did you ever see the Naruto sports festival? It showed Itachi and Kisame standing in line for the bathroom and Yondaime walking past Naruto.

Things that are not cannon should not be included in the argument.


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## Renegade (Jul 15, 2006)

> In relative universe, speed increases mass. Something moving at the speed of light would have infinite mass. Thus, Flash hitting with Infinite Mass Punches. Infinite > number.


Speed does not increase mass, it increases energy.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Is that the same guy , whos writting comics heros adventures , from the begining , until now?
if yes, then ok , dont take movies (and even like this...this aint really correct)

If thats not the same guy , we can take everything we know from DBZ , since its just another guy wrting the story , but the same character


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## Gunners (Jul 15, 2006)

> Flash wins, all reasons stated by Endless Mike and co. And btw, you pro Goku supporters are making the DBZ fandom look bad : /



Considering endless mike is bullshitting sprouting crap like trillion times faster than light, i don't buy into it.



> Sadly for you guys, Goku cannot win this fight, he isn't fast enough to even star to move before is face is melted, literally . Flash supporters provided enough info to reach that conclusion. The problem with you is that you don't want someone to burst your bubble, where "Goku > all".



I don't care about Goku leaving, shit Flash is probably my favourite hero, well Wally anyway. The point is people are overrating his speed and underrating Goku's to the point of people saying, ''he wouldn't be able to move his face''.

I think i recall death stroke beating him in a similar manner setting out explosions all over and putting a knife the one place he would run, well Goku is stronger and faster than death stroke, so i could see him rigging ki blast explosions all over till flash has no where to run.


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## konflikti (Jul 15, 2006)

ydraliskos said:
			
		

> What makes you think speed increases mass in Flash's universe?  If other laws oh physics obviously don't apply(ftl), why should this particular one do?
> 
> You can't go out and say that something is FTL, then use actual physics to prove points, since you already disregarded actual physics to reach FTL.



That's why I said "In relative universe.". DC seems to be relative universe whenever needed(main reason why at some instances Flash tops at lightspeed?). Flash punches are dubbed as Infinite Mass Punches, which hints that at least they are rather related to relative universe. Speedforce being the ultimate plot-device, Flash's powers are bit more shakier than say Supermans.



			
				kombak said:
			
		

> Is that the same guy , whos writting comics heros adventures , from the begining , until now?
> if yes, then ok , dont take movies (and even like this...this aint really correct)
> 
> If thats not the same guy , we can take everything we know from DBZ , since its just another guy wrting the story , but the same character



Same company. They decide wether a storyline is canon or not. Some DBZ movies are out of timeline and contain other inconsitancies and are thus widely disregarded.

Manga != Western Comic, comparison isn't accurate.



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Considering endless mike is bullshitting sprouting crap like trillion times faster than light, i don't buy into it.



That's rather far from bullshit. You may take preference in actual statements of speed, but the scenario is different. Lightspeed isn't enough in there. It up to you if which line you believe, but the other still isn't bullshit.


----------



## Renegade (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> Is that the same guy , whos writting comics heros adventures , from the begining , until now?
> if yes, then ok , dont take movies (and even like this...this aint really correct)


No, Kishi does not write the movies...  , the only thing he writes and the only thing that is truly cannon is the manga.



			
				kombak said:
			
		

> If thats not the same guy , we can take everything we know from DBZ , since its just another guy wrting the story , but the same character


Lol, wtf. So you're saying that as long as the characters are the same, it doesn't matter who writes the story? Ok, let's say my 10 year old cousin wrote a different version of the manga but used the same characters and made Goku do shit like blow up the entire universe and other shit that he could not do in the actual manga. Are we to assume that it's real and cannon? No, because my 10 year old cousin is not the original writer of the manga.

The only thing cannon is the manga. Periot studios (creators of the Naruto anime) have nothing to do with the actual Naruto story. The only thing truly cannon and the only thing created by Kishi is the *Manga*.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 15, 2006)

> That's rather far from bullshit. You may take preference in actual statemets of speed, but the scenario is different. Lightspeed isn't enough in there. It up to you if which line you believe, but the other sill isn't bullshit.



But Flash does not move a trillion times faster than light, i know he moves light speed, but to my knowledge he does not exceed it.


----------



## Renegade (Jul 15, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> That's why I said "In relative universe.". DC seems to be relative universe whenever needed(main reason why at some instances Flash tops at lightspeed?). Flash punches are dubbed as Infinite Mass Punches, which hints that at least they are rather related to relative universe. Speedforce being the ultimate plot-device, Flash's powers are bit more shakier than say Supermans.


Speed does not increase mass though, even in the DC universe. That's just basic physics, speed increases energy. Speed coupled with mass increases the energy of an object. Since the Flash is incredibly fast, speed plays a big role in the energy of his punch/kick. That's why the energy of his punch/kick is greater than Goku's; because the Flash has more speed.


----------



## ydraliskos (Jul 15, 2006)

Speed is squared, yes. 

However people don't realize that every force has a reaction. An Infinite Mass punch would blow away the Flash as surely as it would his opponent...


----------



## Renegade (Jul 15, 2006)

^ In the process of a punch, the energy from the person's fist gets transferred into the person's face. It's not like the "puncher" gets blown back too when he punches the person. This is because the fist of the "puncher" has momentum going forward, therefore the momentum of the fist trumps the reaction gained from the punch.

But since every action has an equal and opposite reaction, it is true that the harder someone punches, the more that person's fist will hurt. So that's the only messed up thing about this. Unless the Flash had a very strong body (in the sense of how metals like steel are strong), his fist would be completely fucked up. But again, this is why you cannot use real-life physics while debating about comic books.


----------



## konflikti (Jul 15, 2006)

Speedforce blocks any harmful reactions to him/surroundings his speed causes.



> Infinite Mass Punch - Introduced under Grant Morrison, Flash, travelling near the speed of light acquired the relativistic mass of such speed to impart blows which could hit with the force of "a white dwarf star" (almost certainly hyperbole, nonetheless quite hard indeed), Flash's own durability regulated by the Speed Force in such cases.



Got mixed in my thoughts at some point. The idea was that the energy released would need mass that high.


----------



## ydraliskos (Jul 15, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Speedforce blocks any harmful reactions to him/surroundings his speed causes.



Lmao, this is so pathetic. And to think those writers actually get paid to write this shit.


----------



## Kisame. (Jul 15, 2006)

Yes the speedforce protects flash from things such as friction and momentum.

And also from objects he is holding.


----------



## ydraliskos (Jul 15, 2006)

And for whatever other thing might come up in the future, with such a broad definition, I'm sure.


----------



## Renegade (Jul 15, 2006)

ydraliskos said:
			
		

> Lmao, this is so pathetic. And to think those writers actually get paid to write this shit.


It's a fictional comic book dude, what do you expect...


----------



## ydraliskos (Jul 15, 2006)

I expect decent writing, not a plot-device with a name.  Where's the fun, if you know that speedforce+ftl for example , as it is right now, can be used as an excuse to do ANYTHING. The writer 'll throw in a half assed explanation " oh didn't I tell you, speedforce also removes coffee stains" and voila, the plot advances.


----------



## Renegade (Jul 15, 2006)

^ Well, that's the beauty of fictional entertainment, the writer can do whatever the fuck he wants, lol.


----------



## Reznor (Jul 15, 2006)

Version of Flash matters alot for this.

JLU Flash on CN would get owned. Anyone for Flash is going to have to realize that people's perception of Flash are based off this one so their opinions entering this are going to be for largely for Goku.

However, later Flashes win, like KC. He can outrun planet destroying blasts. If Flash runs the direction Goku wants him to and he just IT's in front, heat at a manueverability disadvantage.

Tierswise, I don't think that Goku is behind the Flash. In fact, I think Buu Saga is higher than all but KC Flash, who is around Fusion Saga.

But Goku's style just isn't good against Flash. That wouldn't matter against weaker Flashes. Against later Flashes, it would matter. Against KC Flash, who is also higher-tiered, it definitely would matter - level 100 Water pokemon beats level 80 Fire pokemon.

The only point of contension I see: can the Flash dodge an attack from a direction he's not aware of? If he can, this gives Goku a shot.


----------



## Kisame. (Jul 15, 2006)

> JLU Flash on CN would get owned. Anyone for Flash is going to have to realize that people's perception of Flash are based off this one so their opinions entering this are going to be for largely for Goku.



Even that flash would win. He can still go lightspeed and vibrate and do all his other tricks.


He still got transported to the speedforce.


----------



## Reznor (Jul 15, 2006)

> Even that flash would win. He can still go lightspeed and vibrate and do all his other tricks.
> 
> He still got transported to the speedforce.


 Yeah, he has those tricks, but I don't think that he'd win.

I mean, earlier in the show, cars and guns were a problem for him. Even after Lexiac, he's still not some diety.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Jul 15, 2006)

JLU Flash would loose hard, he can get to light speed but his accelerations is faaaaar slower then comic flash, he had to lap the world several times even to gain good speed.

KC Flash would win this all to easily. He can fly, transverse dimensions as easily as breathing, be everywhere in an entire city at once without ever being seen 24/7 with no rest, and is theorized by fans to be more or less fused with the speed force.

However, I always assume is the normal cannon Flash unless otherwise stated. In this case Im assumeing its Wally since a) Current Flash is still being worked out in the comic and is depowered ATM and b) He is the most well known Flash. Im also assumeing this is before IC since the fate of the speed force is still being worked out in the new comic.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> In that clip he flew around the world 9 times in about 7 seconds.
> 
> That's way slower than lightspeed.
> 
> Not to mention it is contradicted by the manga, where he only flies around the world 5 times in a maximum of 30 minutes.



You have been chatting garbage and backing your *OPINIONS* up with no proof.

The anime does not contradict the manga in the least.

From the manga, volume 40, page 139, Gotenks:* " I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap."*

That is at least 24-36 times around the globe!

Maybe you don't understand the concept of LIGHT trails. To leave a LIGHT trail you have to be going as fast or faster than light. Why are you even bothering to argue? I've already proven that ki blasts can go as fast as light (they ARE light) and we've seen sayans dodge and outfly ki blasts.

Flash can not achieve lihghtspeed instantly it takes time for him to charge up, I see how some of you are overrating Flash.

Be gone with your non sense


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> You have been chatting garbage and backing your *OPINIONS* up with no proof.
> 
> The anime does not contradict the manga in the least.
> 
> ...


There are no such thing as light-trails, only trails of things that emitt light.

Ki blasts aren't light, they're ki, and you've proven shit.

And it all depends on which version of Flash, concerning his acceleration.

Concerning your Gotenks quote, Saiyan fusions are known for their arrogance.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> JLU Flash would loose hard, he can get to light speed but his accelerations is faaaaar slower then comic flash, he had to lap the world several times even to gain good speed.



And you think Goku can do that AT ALL? So Flash trumps him in that respect because he actually can. Goku hasn't shown the ability to lap the Earth even IN FLIGHT.


----------



## little nin (Jul 15, 2006)

flash takes this one....he owns >_>


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> And you think Goku can do that AT ALL? So Flash trumps him in that respect because he actually can. Goku hasn't shown the ability to lap the Earth even IN AIR.



Goku does not need to run a marathon around the world to proove his strength.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku does not need to run a marathon around the world to proove his strength.



But if he's fighting someone who can, how will he hit them?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku does not need to run a marathon around the world to proove his strength.


You're right, because that'd prove his speed, not his strength.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Ever heard of reflexes?


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

And you think Goku's reflexes are faster than Flash's action/reaction speed?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Ever heard of reflexes?


And do you know that reflexes depend on the neural pathways?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> And you think Goku's reflexes are faster than Flash's action/reaction speed?



Yes! I can post Flash getting his ass walloped by Gorilla Grodd, The Rogues! If Flash has such great Reflexes why did Doom Kill him with a punch?:amazed 

Flash is like a candle light one blow and he's out.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yes! I can post Flash getting his ass walloped by Gorilla Grodd, The Rogues! If Flash has such great Reflexes why did Doom Kill him with a punch?:amazed
> 
> Flash is like a candle light one blow and he's out.


Aslong as it hasn't been stated _which_ version of Flash is being used, you can't prove shit about his reflexes.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> Aslong as it hasn't been stated _which_ version of Flash is being used, you can't prove shit about his reflexes.



Oh yes I can, Even the Flash from JLA has gotten physically knocked out by punches. I can proove that the Flash is only good in a race not a fight.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Oh yes I can, Even the Flash from JLA has gotten physically knocked out by punches. I can proove that the Flash is only good in a race not a fight.


'Even the Flash from JLA'? 

What about KC Flash, then? And the whole becoming intangible part?


----------



## konflikti (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Oh yes I can, Even the Flash from JLA has gotten physically knocked out by punches. I can proove that the Flash is only good in a race not a fight.



Then go ahead. You always promise scans put never post anything.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> 'Even the Flash from JLA'?
> 
> What about KC Flash, then? And the whole becoming intangible part?



Yeah, Flash can move simoutaneously between dimensions, Goku can do that too using Shunkan Idou.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yes! I can post Flash getting his ass walloped by Gorilla Grodd, The Rogues! If Flash has such great Reflexes why did Doom Kill him with a punch?:amazed
> 
> Flash is like a candle light one blow and he's out.



And Goku got tagged and/or beaten by Piccolo, Radditz, Vegeta, Captain Ginyu, Frieza, Android 19, Chibi Cell, Cell, Majin Vegeta, Boo.

And how about non-canon, huh?

Android 13, Fusion Android, Kūra, Metal Kura, Burori, Janemba, Dr. Wheelo, Lord Slug and Tullece. 

There's probably more. And you're telling me what about Flash again?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yeah, Flash can move simoutaneously between dimensions, Goku can do that too using Shunkan Idou.


But not continuously.


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> And Goku got tagged and/or beaten by Piccolo, Radditz, Vegeta, Captain Ginyu, Frieza, Android 19, Chibi Cell, Cell, Majin Vegeta, Boo.
> 
> And how about non-canon, huh?
> 
> ...



I don't want to get dragged into this but that isn't much of a counter. Physically speaking the people you mentioned would murder Gorilla Grodd.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

_I can proove that the Flash is only good in a race not a fight._

Walter West.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

Delta Shell said:
			
		

> I don't want to get dragged into this but that isn't much of a counter. Physically speaking the people you mentioned would murder Gorilla Grodd.



The point isn't in comparison of powers of the people they fought, it's to counter the claims made that Goku's nigh untouchable. You know, since he believes someone like the Flash can't touch him because of his "superb" reflexes. Which is kinda ironic... especially when none of the people Goku fights is as fast as Flash.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 15, 2006)

> The point isn't in comparison of powers of the people they fought, it's to counter the claims made that Goku's nigh untouchable. You know, since he believes someone like the Flash can't touch him because of his "superb" reflexes. Which is kinda ironic... especially when none of the people Goku fights is as fast as Flash.



And to counter this the people who he fights have precognition ability to somewhat fortell where abouts he is going to move, they have precognition on par with Goku so they would be able to hit him.

At the sametime im not saying flash couldn't hit Goku, it wouldn't be as easy as you make it out to be, in anycase i think Goku would just fly in the air into the clouds where the flash can not see or get to him, he would then raid the Earth from above.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> And to counter this the people who he fights have precognition ability to somewhat fortell where abouts he is going to move, they have precognition on par with Goku so they would be able to hit him.
> 
> At the sametime im not saying flash couldn't hit Goku, it wouldn't be as easy as you make it out to be, in anycase i think Goku would just fly in the air into the clouds where the flash can not see or get to him, he would then raid the Earth from above.



Who the hell in DBZ have precognition?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

That's a bulk of the Vegito vs. Vegito topic.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

No one had precognition....


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Yes they do, Sensing and Forseeign movements is precognition. DBZ has devine senses! This has already been prooven with the Mr. Popo, Majin Buu scans.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yes they do, Sensing and Forseeign movements is precognition. DBZ has devine senses! This has already been prooven with the Mr. Popo, Majin Buu scans.


Can you show me those scans?

And if I move out of the way just before someone punches me, and they miss, does that mean I have divine abilities?


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yes they do, Sensing and Forseeign movements is precognition. DBZ has devine senses! This has already been prooven with the Mr. Popo, Majin Buu scans.



Look up the ACTUAL definition of precognition first before you claim someone has it.


----------



## escamoh (Jul 15, 2006)

This is gonna end up like the Superman vs Goku thread where no one is gonna agree in the end after a million pages of arguments.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Look up the ACTUAL definition of precognition first before you claim someone has it.



I already know , it is clairvoyance! DBZ has the power to discern and anticipate objects not present to the normal *senses.* Now if you did not know that you know nothing of DBZ.

How in the hell do you think they can sense all over the universe or Sense stuff coming before it even happens? Seeing things at the top of Karin's tower! that is divine senses.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

They never sense stuff before it happens. Give me an example of this.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> I already know , it is clairvoyance! DBZ has the power to discern and anticipate objects not present to the normal *senses.* Now if you did not know that you know nothing of DBZ.
> 
> How in the hell do you think they can sense all over the universe or Sense stuff coming before it even happens? Seeing things at the top of Karin's tower! that is divine senses.


They can't sense things all over the universe.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> I already know , it is clairvoyance! DBZ has the power to discern and anticipate objects not present to the normal *senses.* Now if you did not know that you know nothing of DBZ.
> 
> How in the hell do you think they can sense all over the universe or Sense stuff coming before it even happens? Seeing things at the top of Karin's tower! that is divine senses.



*in an inner knowledge or sense of future events.


The present perception of future events.


Knowing that an event will take place before it actually occurs.
magick-whispers.com/glossarypqrs.htm

Extrasensory perception of future events, usually through dreams; psychic awarness of the future.
members.ozemail.com.au/~adamndeb/Glossary.html

The paranormal awareness of future events.
Round 739 RAW

The prediction of random events without making use of references that are perhaps present now or were present in the past.
users.skynet.be/cpso/engterm2.htm

Knowledge of pending future events.
laurelparanromal.tripod.com/id13.html

A formal statement made by a witness in response to interrogation as to what he or she intends to say in court.
hjem.get2net.dk/safsaf/glossary.html

knowledge of a future event which could not have been predicted or inferred by normal means.
And I quote

anacademic term for knowledge of something in advance of itsoccurrence, especially by extrasensory perception.
The loom

picking up on events in the near and further future
fontface.com

knowledge of an event before it occurs 
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Precognition is a form of extra-sensory perception which allows a "percipient" to perceive information about future places or events before they happen (as opposed to merely predicting them based on deductive reasoning and current knowledge). A related term, presentiment is used to refer to information about future events which may not present itself in conscious form but rather in the form of emotions or feelings at the autonomic level. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precognition*

All definition of Precognition. None of which anyone I recall in DBZ doing.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> They can't sense things all over the universe.



Yes they can, Goku locking on and teleporting, Majin Buu sensed Gohan way in kaioshin's world which is beyond lightyears away. Hell they can tell what's going on at Namek if they wanted too. DBZ senses are divine the yare not average senses.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yes they can, Goku locking on and teleporting, The entire Z senshi sensed Freiza when he was coming to earth and he was lightyears away! Hell the ycan tell what's going on at Namek if they wanted too. DBZ senses are divine the yare not average senses.



But thats not seeing the future. Thats sensing big power levels. Just like how us normal humans can hear loud noises from far away.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yes they can, Goku locking on and teleporting, The entire Z senshi sensed Freiza when he was coming to earth and he was lightyears away! Hell the ycan tell what's going on at Namek if they wanted too. DBZ senses are divine the yare not average senses.


Can Goku sense an infinite distance away?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

I said it onc, I argued it multiple times, and I reiterate this again.

Clairvoyance IS NOT THE SAME as precognition.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Are you guys slow or something...



> Knowing that an event will take place before it actually occurs.



Majin Buu knowing that Mystic Gohan will be born even before it happens! (Gohan is on Kaioshin's planet!!!!) So he prepared himself and delayed time will fighting Gotenksu!



> knowledge of a future event which could not have been predicted or inferred by normal means.



The Z senshi knowing that Freiza is still alive in the universe and is coming to earth!



> knowledge of an event before it occurs



Mr. Popo training Goku! Mr. Popo knew where Goku was going to attack before he moved! Mr. Popo also did not use his eyes!!

Thanks Keollyn you actually helped me out.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

None of those examples showed future sight.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

> The Z senshi knowing that Freiza is still alive in the universe and is coming to earth!



They fucking sensed his power.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> None of those examples showed future sight.



Yes it did. They knew these things would occur before it happened!


----------



## warrior1000 (Jul 15, 2006)

You guys are saying that flash can win against goku on a numerical value that has been attached to his speed. What if Toriyame said goku's speed in his normal state is four or five times the speed of light. The Flash can not go the speed of light, the only Flash that has reached that speed in Berry Allen, where he became pure light and went back in time and became the lighting bolt that had given him powers in the first place. No other Flash has gone the speed of light.

Now let me give you proof how fast dbz charecters are, in db not dbz, Krillen and master roshi are fighting in the world martial arts tournament, they fight and there is only a flash of light for a second, the referee/ commentator guy asks them to explain what just happen and they act out a whole battle sequence, not just on punch. Db was when everyone was tthe weakest so in dbz they are much faster. Another example, in the ginyu saga, vegita tries to throw a dragon ball away so the ginyu force do not get it, Barter flies gets the dragon ball, and this is before vegita, Gohan, and krillen get to even turn around. Goku arrives and he he way faster than Barter.

Now you all are in agreement that IT is fast as speed of light, so when Goku is fighting Flash, before Flash even gets to him he can IT in to the air, where Flash can not reach and blast the Earth.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

> Mr. Popo training Goku! Mr. Popo knew where Goku was going to attack before he moved! Mr. Popo also did not use his eyes!!



Mr. Popo was just a better fighter. 

Are you telling me that Kakashi can see the future because he can fight with genin while reading a book?


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

warrior1000 said:
			
		

> You guys are saying that flash can win against goku on a numerical value that has been attached to his speed. What if Toriyame said goku's speed in his normal state is four or five times the speed of light. The Flash can not go the speed of light, the only Flash that has reached that speed in Berry Allen, where he became pure light and went back in time and became the lighting bolt that had given him powers in the first place. No other Flash has gone the speed of light.
> 
> Now let me give you proof how fast dbz charecters are, in db not dbz, Krillen and master roshi are fighting in the world martial arts tournament, they fight and there is only a flash of light for a second, the referee/ commentator guy asks them to explain what just happen and they act out a whole battle sequence, not just on punch. Db was when everyone was tthe weakest so in dbz they are much faster. Another example, in the ginyu saga, vegita tries to throw a dragon ball away so the ginyu force do not get it, Barter flies gets the dragon ball, and this is before vegita, Gohan, and krillen get to even turn around. Goku arrives and he he way faster than Barter.
> 
> Now you all are in agreement that IT is fast as speed of light, so when Goku is fighting Flash, before Flash even gets to him he can IT in to the air, where Flash can not reach and blast the Earth.



I guess you also think that Goku THINKS as fast as Flash does, huh?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

> What if Toriyame said goku's speed in his normal state is four or five times the speed of light



But did he say it? Nope. 



> Now let me give you proof how fast dbz charecters are, in db not dbz, Krillen and master roshi are fighting in the world martial arts tournament, they fight and there is only a flash of light for a second, the referee/ commentator guy asks them to explain what just happen and they act out a whole battle sequence, not just on punch. Db was when everyone was tthe weakest so in dbz they are much faster. Another example, in the ginyu saga, vegita tries to throw a dragon ball away so the ginyu force do not get it, Barter flies gets the dragon ball, and this is before vegita, Gohan, and krillen get to even turn around. Goku arrives and he he way faster than Barter.



I don't see how any of that makes them faster than the Flash.



> Now you all are in agreement that IT is fast as speed of light, so when Goku is fighting Flash, before Flash even gets to him he can IT in to the air, where Flash can not reach and blast the Earth.



Its more of a travel skill rather than a battle one. Plus, Goku has to put his fingers to his head and concentrate to do it. Flash can get to him before he pulls it off. He has a much better chance of lasting if he just flies instead of trying to teleport.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

warrior1000 said:
			
		

> You guys are saying that flash can win against goku on a numerical value that has been attached to his speed. What if Toriyame said goku's speed in his normal state is four or five times the speed of light. The Flash can not go the speed of light, the only Flash that has reached that speed in Berry Allen, where he became pure light and went back in time and became the lighting bolt that had given him powers in the first place. No other Flash has gone the speed of light.
> 
> *Indeed, but Wally West has demonstrated faster than lightspedds as well!!*
> 
> ...



Instant Transmisiion is not lightspeed! It transcends time and space!


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

IT is not speed at all, it's teleportation, one that can not be kept up continuously.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

The Flash has outraced instant travel before...


----------



## warrior1000 (Jul 15, 2006)

I was trying to say that Goku is not a slow poke as many of you claim, Goku can surroun himself with ki, his power, when he charges up to ssj3 is felt across the universe, i think even the flash would have a hard time killing goku with just one blow. COme on now be a little fair.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> I guess you also think that Goku THINKS as fast as Flash does, huh?



Goku does not need to think! Goku's reactions are done without thinking. Common sense, I guess you do not play any type of sports


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

It depends on how he does it, though. We don't know if Goku's ki can prevent the Flash from vibrating through him.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Jul 15, 2006)

warrior1000 said:
			
		

> You guys are saying that flash can win against goku on a numerical value that has been attached to his speed. What if Toriyame said goku's speed in his normal state is four or five times the speed of light. The Flash can not go the speed of light, the only Flash that has reached that speed in Berry Allen, where he became pure light and went back in time and became the lighting bolt that had given him powers in the first place. No other Flash has gone the speed of light.



Wally West has gone light speed many times. First official time was in part 5 of Terminal Velocity in Issue #99 of Flash v2 where he outraced a laser beam to its target to save Linda and was absorbed into the speed force as a result. He has since done it many times more. Even Impulse has done it before, first to save Max Mercury's life and other times, like in IC to trap Superboy Prime into the speed force. 



			
				warrior1000 said:
			
		

> Now let me give you proof how fast dbz charecters are, in db not dbz, Krillen and master roshi are fighting in the world martial arts tournament, they fight and there is only a flash of light for a second, the referee/ commentator guy asks them to explain what just happen and they act out a whole battle sequence, not just on punch. Db was when everyone was tthe weakest so in dbz they are much faster. Another example, in the ginyu saga, vegita tries to throw a dragon ball away so the ginyu force do not get it, Barter flies gets the dragon ball, and this is before vegita, Gohan, and krillen get to even turn around. Goku arrives and he he way faster than Barter.



Flash has had an entire fight circiling the world literally dozens of times in a fraction of a second (his second fight with Zoom in Issue #200 of Flash v2). That trumps the Roshi and Krillian thing by a million times lol


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

You can say that again.

around 2min50

Goku and cooler are fighting during instant teleportation
theyre moving in a different world , its not even about speed anymore , the whole time they are in this , is 0.00000000000000001? sec in real , because vegeta is almost as strong as goku this time (the 2 ssj , still no time chamber) and he doesnt understand a damn thing

For the one who said before that they arent slowing down for the show , u can see 2 different speed in any DBZ fight

Just take the Goku vs Cell fight
There is the "show" speed , for us , to enjoy the fight

and the real speed , when  we can not see goku or cell anywhere , but just the deformation in the air , and some sounds...

that is the real speed , but running a whole show with this? impossible


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> You can say that again.
> 
> around 2min50
> 
> ...



Cooler isn't real.


----------



## warrior1000 (Jul 15, 2006)

IT is a speed, people don't just disapear form one place and appear at another. Unless you are saying that Goku can do magic.


----------



## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Cooler isn't real.



Flash isnt real either u know , nor superman or Buu 
movie until broly were about toryama storyline  (broly wasnt , because goku was supposed to be the legendary super sayan)


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Wally West has gone light speed many times. First official time was in part 5 of Terminal Velocity in Issue #99 of Flash v2 where he outraced a laser beam to its target to save Linda and was absorbed into the speed force as a result. He has since done it many times more. Even Impulse has done it before, first to save Max Mercury's life and other times, like in IC to trap Superboy Prime into the speed force.
> 
> *Yeah I read that issue!*
> 
> ...



Running and fighting at the same time and combat speed  is completely different! Flash's fighting movements do not even come close to Goku's..

Flash may travel faster than Goku he does not fight at the speeds that Goku can fight at. Flash can not hurt Goku in anyway!


----------



## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

warrior1000 said:
			
		

> IT is a speed, people don't just disapear form one place and appear at another. Unless you are saying that Goku can do magic.



INstant teleportation is magic then?
he went from earth to kaio planet (in the world of the dead) , to Namek within 1s.

BTw there is magic in DBZ , buu has been created like that  (babidi the magician)


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

warrior1000 said:
			
		

> IT is a speed, people don't just disapear form one place and appear at another. Unless you are saying that Goku can do magic.



Well, he can read minds by touching you. People can't do that either. Its teleportation.



> Flash isnt real either u know , nor superman or Buu
> movie until broly were about toryama storyline (broly wasnt , because goku was supposed to be the legendary super sayan)



By that, I meant that Cooler isn't canon.


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## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku does not need to think! Goku's reactions are done without thinking. Common sense, I guess you do not play any type of sports



So what you're saying is that Goku doesn't have a brain then, huh? How is he living without one?


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## Detective X (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> Flash isnt real either u know , nor superman or Buu
> movie until broly were about toryama storyline  (broly wasnt , because goku was supposed to be the legendary super sayan)


I'm pretty sure he meant that Cooler isn't canon to the DragonBall storyline...

Either of the Cooler movies could never have happened due to storylines and circumstances in the manga *and* the anime.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Wanna proof the 2 different speed?

Show speed and real dbz speed

You can say that again.

show speed is 90% of the video
REal speed is at 2min29 , the clash (couldnt find a video we can see the whole scene , its about few minutes long) or at the end

DBZ full speed fight are invisible

(this is an anwer for the one who said , there is no "audience" speed or real speed difference)

Would be kinda boring a fight withtout any visible fighter 



edit : and they had such a speed since dragon ball , not even Z
Goku vs piccolo junior 1st fight , even god said " even with my eyes , i cant see them"


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku does not need to think! Goku's reactions are done without thinking. Common sense, I guess you do not play any type of sports




Because we all know Goku never goes "Hmm, that didn't work on this guy. I better *THINK* of another plan."


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## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

warrior1000 said:
			
		

> IT is a speed, people don't just disapear form one place and appear at another. Unless you are saying that Goku can do magic.



They're called techniques. Go look it up.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Flash may travel faster than Goku he does not fight at the speeds that Goku can fight at. Flash can not hurt Goku's anyway!



Flash was fighting Zoom, they were not running the whole time. When Flash amps up to hyperspeed he does all movements at that speed. Whether it be running or sitting in a chair drinking some tea. Its not just running.


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## warrior1000 (Jul 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> So what you're saying is that Goku doesn't have a brain then, huh? How is he living without one?



What the guy meant was that Goku's uses his instincts in a battle.


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## warrior1000 (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> INstant teleportation is magic then?
> he went from earth to kaio planet (in the world of the dead) , to Namek within 1s.
> 
> BTw there is magic in DBZ , buu has been created like that  (babidi the magician)



I agree with you that there is magic in Dbz, but even vegita says that Goku is just moving really fast, in IT. Goku even explains the IT's speed to Trunks, i just don't remember the number he said.


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## Dark Evangel (Jul 15, 2006)

warrior1000 said:
			
		

> Goku's in the air, and where would Flash go or do, he cant fly, and he does not have much physical strenght, and don't give me a stupid answer like Flash will jump and kill goku, Flash can't fly, so  jumping would limit his movement in the air, Goku would own the flash in the air. Goku doesn't need to power up that much to blow up a planet, Vegita did it with just two finger and this is when he and nappa were going to earth.


The Flash has taken people before who can fly with ease not much of a problem with Flash.


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## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

warrior1000 said:
			
		

> What the guy meant was that Goku's uses his instincts in a battle.



That has nothing to do with reaction though. In order to react, one must use the mind in order to do so. So unless Goku has some unknown ability not explained in DBZ, he has to think in order to react too.


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## warrior1000 (Jul 15, 2006)

Leaf_Jutsu said:
			
		

> The Flash has taken people before who can fly with ease not much of a problem with Flash.



Flash can't even defeat Superman.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Its not about hiding in the sky without beeing able to fight...

fly then bomb the planet / instant teleport to another 

any tiny beam , a really tiny one from SSJ4 can blow up an entire planet and such a beam doesnt need time prep like kameha , just throw it


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## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

warrior1000 said:
			
		

> Flash can't even defeat Superman.



Neither can Goku....


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> That has nothing to do with reaction though. In order to react, one must use the mind in order to do so. So unless Goku has some unknown ability not explained in DBZ, he has to think in order to react too.



Whats about  (is that the same word in english? "reflex"? )


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## warrior1000 (Jul 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> That has nothing to do with reaction though. In order to react, one must use the mind in order to do so. So unless Goku has some unknown ability not explained in DBZ, he has to think in order to react too.



Reation comes with Instincts. All cells it the body can carry memories.


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## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

warrior1000 said:
			
		

> Reation comes with Instincts. All cells it the body can carry memories.


Not quite.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> Its not about hiding in the sky without beeing able to fight...
> 
> fly then bomb the planet / instant teleport to another
> 
> any tiny beam , a really tiny one from SSJ4 can blow up an entire planet and such a beam doesnt need time prep like kameha , just throw it



SSJ4 isn't real.




> Flash can't even defeat Superman.



A million times LOL at you. As if Goku could defeat Superman.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Flash was fighting Zoom, they were not running the whole time. When Flash amps up to hyperspeed he does all movements at that speed. Whether it be running or sitting in a chair drinking some tea. Its not just running.



Yes it is, that fight revolved around running most of the time, it was rare for them to stop! Also Flash was empowerd by Bart and Jay Garrick so do not feed me that garbage!

Here's Flash (Wally) and Jay) trying to steel his speed by running around him 



Flash is still too slow!, easily gets tripped.



Flash being empowerd by Bart and Jay!



Note how Zoom is amazed that he is invisible, wow Goku can jump side to side and become invisible:amazed  Yet Flash still gets his ass beat, oh and look it still consist of running.:amazed 



Once again The Flash can not fight at high Speeds with Goku! There is nothing the Flash can do to hurt Goku. Goku will easily KO the Flash.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yes it is, that fight revolved around running most of the time, it was rare for them to stop! Also Flash was empowerd by Bart and Jay Garrick so do not feed me that garbage!
> 
> Here's Flash (Wally) and Jay) trying to steel his speed by running around him
> 
> ...



Wrong fight dude, that was his first fight with Zoom, I was talking about the 2nd fight in Issue #200. The only thing he stole then was Jesse Quick's Mantra which Flash can acheive on his own, as shown in Issue #91 of Flash v2 where he first uses the Quick Formula.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

> There is nothing the Flash can do to hurt Goku.



How about vibrate through him and make him explode. You think that hurts?


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Its a fight , goku wont be a sitting ...
anyway , there is no proof that even if he was(sitting) this could kill him

Goku can take galaxy destroyer beam , i think he can take this


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

When did anyone in DBZ destroy a galaxy?


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## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

Goku can't take galaxy busters. Heck, it doesn't even look like he can take planet busters.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

It's also arguable that Zoom can go toe to toe with Goku. I wouldn't say a win, but at least toe to toe.

Chronokinesis does wonders.

_Goku can take galaxy destroyer beam , i think he can take this_

Considering he died against Cell's self-destruction, I disagree.

The fact that he didn't use his body to stop Kid Buu's ki blast from destroying the Earth suggests that he can't take galaxy destroyers.


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## warrior1000 (Jul 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> SSJ4 isn't real.
> 
> Forget ssj4, ssj3 is real, we can agree on that
> 
> ...



You are contridicting yourself with this statment.

Flash can not defeat superman, that is true. Superman is slower than Flash, so what superman does not have to think to attack Flash.
 There is alot os similarities b/t Superman and Goku, both can fly, they can go superfast, both can shoot beams in some form. So i would say Goku would defeat Superman, because his attacks are stronger, and he would kill Flash.

You are contridicting yourself with this statment.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Wrong fight dude, that was his first fight with Zoom, I was talking about the 2nd fight in Issue #200. The only thing he stole then was Jesse Quick's Mantra which Flash can acheive on his own, as shown in Issue #91 of Flash v2 where he first uses the Quick Formula.



Oh yeah you are right, Sorry for posting the wrong fight.  I can post that fight as well, they still ran through out that fight also but I have to go through my comics.

Still Flash can do nothing to Goku! Goku's simply too fast for Flash in the combat/reflexive speed department. Goku making himself invisible was done since he was a kid in Dragonball.



> How about vibrate through him and make him explode. You think that hurts?



Your chatting Garbage. Flash is not Vibrating through Shit! He will be vibrating through an After Image then Goku KO's his ass after that. Hell I doubt that Flash will vibrate through Goku's Ki anyway.


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## Dark Evangel (Jul 15, 2006)

Kamehameha is not much of a problem with Flash. Flash can run around the world like 30 times in one second while Kamehameha reaches the moon in a few seconds. Flash could stole the speed of Kamehameha leaving it motionless.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

warrior1000 said:
			
		

> You are contridicting yourself with this statment.
> 
> Flash can not defeat superman, that is true. Superman is slower than Flash, so what superman does not have to think to attack Flash.
> There is alot os similarities b/t Superman and Goku, both can fly, they can go superfast, both can shoot beams in some form. So i would say Goku would defeat Superman, because his attacks are stronger, and he would kill Flash.
> ...



Do you know anything about Superman? Go read the Goku vs Superman thread, then come back and tell me I'm contradicting myself.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Plz , do the difference between show and real speed/strengh in dbz

real speed is really invisible in dbz , and u can see this sometimes and its boring

for goku taking planet destroyer beam , its easy
Vegeta could have blow up the planet in his 1st fight vs goku
and we know such a beam is like a mosquito thing to a SSJ goku
thats all

If any beam , like Big bang attack of vegeta , to Cyborg 19 (or 20 , the fat  one) doesnt destroy the planet , thats because...they need the planet , so they condense the power of the beam in a little explosion , that doesnt mean the beam doesnt have the raw power to destroy the planet


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Considering he died against Cell's self-destruction, I disagree.
> 
> *That is PIS! Consider the fact that planet Namek blowing up was not going to kill Goku. Consider the fact that Super Kanzentai Cell took a Final Flash in the Back and did not even Blink. You are chatting garbage again.*
> 
> The fact that he didn't use his body to stop Kid Buu's ki blast from destroying the Earth suggests that he can't take galaxy destroyers.



You have no concept on how Ki blasts work do you? I know why don't I post where supes *DIES* from a physical beat down in the Obsidion Age arc. I didn't see the planet being rocked then. Or how about Flash getting Koed by Boomerang, or Gorilla Grodd!:


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

_Goku's simply too fast for Flash in the combat/reflexive speed department. _

And that would be how?


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

> That is PIS! Consider the fact that planet Namek blowing up was not going to kill Goku. Consider the fact that Super Kanzentai Cell took a Final Flash in the Back and did not even Blink. You are chatting garbage again.



That still doesn't change the fact that Cell's self destruction killed Goku. You're just showing how inconsistant DBZ can be now.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

_That is PIS! Consider the fact that planet Namek blowing up was not going to kill Goku. Consider the fact that Super Kanzentai Cell took a Final Flash in the Back and did not even Blink. You are chatting garbage again._

PIS? I'd say that's a legitimate death.

And you really have no accurate gauge as to how badly would Goku survived Namek's destruction. For all we know, he could be in just as bad shape as Frieza, with all his body intact or not.

Garbage and PIS. Really.

_You have no concept on how Ki blasts work do you? I know why don't I post where supes DIES from a physical beat down in the obsidion age arc._

Please. Enlighten me on how ki-blasts work and post the beat-down.


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## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> Plz , do the difference between show and real speed/strengh in dbz
> 
> real speed is really invisible in dbz , and u can see this sometimes and its boring
> 
> ...



Vegeta didn't have the raw power to destroy Earth at that time. He thought he could, but would likely be far from it. Galick Gun is a small planet buster... Earth =/= small planet.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _That is PIS! Consider the fact that planet Namek blowing up was not going to kill Goku. Consider the fact that Super Kanzentai Cell took a Final Flash in the Back and did not even Blink. You are chatting garbage again._
> 
> PIS? I'd say that's a legitimate death.
> 
> ...



Yes goku death by Cell is legitimate because Cell had more Ki than Goku therefore he was going to die no matter what. If Gohan Took on the blast he would not have died because Gohan Simply had more Ki than Cell. That is the reason why Goku could not take on Kid Buu's Blast because he had more Ki than Goku. I will post the beat down later (damn, Superman fans are going to be mad at me because it is not pretty) I have too search through my stake of Comics.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Vegeta didn't have the raw power to destroy Earth at that time. He thought he could, but would likely be far from it. Galick Gun is a small planet buster... Earth =/= small planet.



do you have any proof that he couldnt destroy the earth with his beam?
not in the manga but in the anime , i remind him destroying a whole planet with 2 finger (before going to earth)


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Vegeta didn't have the raw power to destroy Earth at that time. He thought he could, but would likely be far from it. Galick Gun is a small planet buster... Earth =/= small planet.



Keollyn just shut up right now, Vegeta was going to destroy planet Earth with that attack if Goku did not counter it.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> do you have any proof that he couldnt destroy the earth with his beam?
> not in the manga but in the anime , i remind him destroying a whole planet with 2 finger (before going to earth)



That was non canon. Didn't really happen.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Keollyn just shut up right now, Vegeta was going to destroy planet Earth with that attack if Goku did not counter it.



+ if kame senin destroyed the moon , from that far , how could vegeta not be able to destroy the earth , beeing ....1000000000X stronger than kame sennin?^^


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## konflikti (Jul 15, 2006)

Goku countered this planet busting beam with his own. He didn't take it as you describe. There is a huge difference.



			
				kambak said:
			
		

> + if kame senin destroyed the moon , from that far , how could vegeta not be able to destroy the earth , beeing ....1000000000X stronger than kame sennin?^^



Whoa, nice random number. Maybe that's because powerlevels are far from linear.


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## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> + if kame senin destroyed the moon , from that far , how could vegeta not be able to destroy the earth , beeing ....1000000000X stronger than kame sennin?^^


Post scans of Kame Sennin and Vegeta, indicating the one thousand million difference in power.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

lol ure restricting DBuniverse much more than u doing for any comic universe....
its not just toryama , but his whole team , until Frieza chapter , he had the FULL control to everything related to DBZ...and he said it...
but that doesnt change the fact vegeta was about to destroy earth

again...why the hell cant we take movies ? its part from DBZ , its not Fanfic....


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## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

It wasn't written by Toriyama, nor did he indicate that they were canon.


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## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> do you have any proof that he couldnt destroy the earth with his beam?
> not in the manga but in the anime , i remind him destroying a whole planet with 2 finger (before going to earth)



Woah! Why do i have to prove something that didn't happen? It's not my job to prove something that didn't take place. Normally you porve things that ACTUALLY happen, and theorize/hypothesize things that didn't. This is a KNOWN fact.


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## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Keollyn just shut up right now, Vegeta was going to destroy planet Earth with that attack if Goku did not counter it.



I've not seen Vegeta destroy any planet of Earth's size up to that point. Neither did Goku and Vegeta likely never used such a blast on a planet either. So tell me this... How does ANYONE... even the characters in question... know that Vegeta's blast was going to destroy Earth when.. oh, I dunno... DIDN'T. Hmm?


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

_Yes goku death by Cell is legitimate because Cell had more Ki than Goku therefore he was going to die no matter what. If Gohan Took on the blast he would not have died because Gohan Simply had more Ki than Cell._

And this conclusion is agreed by how many people?

_That is the reason why Goku could not take on Kid Buu's Blast because he had more Ki than Goku._

Mmm.

_I will post the beat down later (damn, Superman fans are going to be mad at me because it is not pretty) I have too search through my stake of Comics._

Please do. And what issues are the Obsidian Arc?

And movies are non-canon.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

What was said in the manga vs. your OPINIONS Keollyn? mmm... I wonder...


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Woah! Why do i have to prove something that didn't happen? It's not my job to prove something that didn't take place. Normally you porve things that ACTUALLY happen, and theorize/hypothesize things that didn't. This is a KNOWN fact.



What was said in the manga vs. your OPINIONS Keollyn? mmm... I wonder... I will go with the manga, you are chatting garbage.


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## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> What was said in the manga vs. your OPINIONS Keollyn? mmm... I wonder...


What was done in comics vs your IGNORANCE, Phenomenol?


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## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> What was said in the manga vs. your OPINIONS Keollyn? mmm... I wonder...



I guess we're once again believing that what is said > what is done, huh?


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## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Yes goku death by Cell is legitimate because Cell had more Ki than Goku therefore he was going to die no matter what. If Gohan Took on the blast he would not have died because Gohan Simply had more Ki than Cell._
> 
> And this conclusion is agreed by how many people? And movies are non-canon.



The conclusion is agreed to anyone who is familiar with Dragonball, not rookies like everyone here.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> Post scans of Kame Sennin and Vegeta, indicating the one thousand million difference in power.



of course it was random number

Muten-Rōshi: 139
Vegeta (basic power) : 18 000
Vegeta ( gorilla) : 180 000


Goku SSJ 1 :

150 000 000




IT AN OFFICIAL ARTBOOK WROTE BY toryama himself who said this

but ALL power after namek saga cant be exacly real  because not from toryama himself , we can only speculate



So kame sennin destroying moon from the earth :

139

Vegeta when fighting goku : 18 000  = 139 times stronger

Earth ; 500 000 000 km?
Moon : around 40 000 000

500 / 40 = 12.5

"lol"

U wanted number? u have number , vegeta could have detroyed a planet more than 10 time the earth ...and kame sennin was really  far from the moon



By the way , GOKU SSJ1 is 1 million time , even more , stronger than kame senin....
Whats about SSJ2? ssJ3? ssj4? i think my 100000000000000000000 may be correct no?


after some research

not confirmed by toryama at 100% but most real :

post namek :

Perfect cell : 2 700 000 000
Goku : 2 500 000 000
Majin vegeta : 22 500 000 000
Majin boo full power : 4 500 000 000 000
Goku ssj 3 : 4 450 000 000 000 (no mistak with 0 number it seems)

compare now to the 139 power of kame senin , destroying the moon with one blast


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> The conclusion is agreed to anyone who is familiar with Dragonball, not rookies like everyone here.


Fanboys do not possess generally accepted opinions, Phenomenol. You should know this.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

The same could be said for interpretation vs. interpretation.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

_The conclusion is agreed to anyone who is familiar with Dragonball, not rookies like everyone here._

And I suppose you are the humble, benign DBZ savant who determines who is familiar with DBZ?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _The conclusion is agreed to anyone who is familiar with Dragonball, not rookies like everyone here._
> 
> And I suppose you are the humble, benign DBZ savant who determines who is familiar with DBZ?



No, you guys determine that with the lack of information in your posts.


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## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

see my post above , if u wanted number and proof , you have a lot now...

ANd we know if DBuniverse , that power always increase strengh as much as speed (fact)

I think a lot of pple , really a lot are underestimating DBuniverse


edit : For the story  and audience u cant feel the full speed in DBZ , what would be the point of watching...the invisible?
DBZ if all about Great fight , if u cant understand how much they are stronger and faster than u think , then u dont know dbz..

and  from toryama himself , he had to stop DBZ because Sayans have no limits....they will be , as long are they arent dead , progress....infinite hidden power
"lol" @ in fact ,that even dead they do progress a lot ^^


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> see my post above , if u wanted number and proof , you have a lot now...
> 
> ANd we know if DBuniverse , that power always increase strengh as much as speed (fact)
> 
> I think a lot of pple , really a lot are underestimating DBuniverse



Except its hard to take you seriously.


----------



## kombak (Jul 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Except its hard to take you seriously.


could u **** up if you have something like that to say?

Check out on wikipedia if u wanna see this , that where i took it from



if u want it in english , then go on eng.wiki


----------



## Gunners (Jul 15, 2006)

> Except its hard to take you seriously.



Why he provided a post with high logic behind it, especially the power comparison between roshi and Vegita and planet destroying.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

This thread is done. There is nothing the Flash can do to Goku but run away really fast.


----------



## warrior1000 (Jul 15, 2006)

I agrees.


----------



## Dark Evangel (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> This thread is done. There is nothing the Flash can do to Goku but run away really fast.


Except Flash could hit him while powering up. If Goku tries to blow the world simply he dies too.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Leaf_Jutsu said:
			
		

> Except Flash could hit him while powering up. If Goku tries to blow the world simply he dies too.



What are you talking about? It takes no time For Goku to transform into Super Saiya-jin. Hell he won't need to power up. Flash lost.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

warrior1000 said:
			
		

> I agrees.



Did you read the Superman vs Goku thread like I told you? I guess not. Blind DBZ fanboys...


----------



## Rangamaru (Jul 15, 2006)

flash got this. For all of you who think flash wouldn't be able to touch him; guess what, all of goku's opponents have been able to touch him. And when flash touches him, it's over.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 15, 2006)

> Did you read the Superman vs Goku thread like I told you? I guess not. Blind DBZ fanboys...



Blind comic fanboys. You are just as guilty so don't take the ''i am superiour'' approach.



> Except Flash could hit him while powering up. If Goku tries to blow the world simply he dies too.
> __________________



Accept if Goku goes in the air the Flash would not be able to reach him, and he would only need blow away the surface. As if he hits flash with his attack from what i know he isn't durable and would possibly die.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

Granted, if he can aim at Flash.

Flight is a good advantage for Goku, I admit.

I always wanted to make a Flash vs. Goku thread, with the restriction of being flightless.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

> Accept if Goku goes in the air the Flash would not be able to reach him, and he would only need blow away the surface. As if he hits flash with his attack from what i know he isn't durable and would possibly die.



Except Flash can become intangeble.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 15, 2006)

Well if it was fightless i beleive Goku would win, Flash would have complete control once Goku is in the air it becomes a diffrent story somewhat. Especially if he hides in the cloud, granted sneak attacks won't work as flash will somewhat feel it then move.

Actually a sneak attack could possibly work if the explosions spreads quick anyway.

People are underating dbz, saying crap like ''he would run up to him hit him and that would be it'' Goku would actually be able to dodge some of the attacks, granted flash has him in speed, he wouldn't get owned by every attack, also we don't know how fast dbz characters move in close range.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 15, 2006)

> Except Flash can become intangeble.



Oh so he has no life force? It doesn't matter all that much anyway, if the whole earth is covered with Ki explosions there would be no where to actually run.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Except Flash can become intangeble.



Takes a while for Flash to do that just as long as it takes him to become invisible.

Goku can become intangible and invisible instantly, so what's your point?

Like I said The Flash can do nothing to Goku, one punch from Goku it is lights out for Flash.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

When has Goku ever become intangible and invisible?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

He has moved to sides to dodge something extremely swiftly, but he's never become truly intangible.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

No Goku has not shown the ability to become inatngible. My fault I meant invisible.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

When has Goku ever become invisible?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Technically he hasn't, but he moved so swiftly from side to side that he appeared to be standing still, and it wasn't noticed until they saw to sets of footprints next to him on either side.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Flash can do that too.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

No he has not shown that abilty in battle. Flash speed is only demonstrated while RUNNING!!!!


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

. . .

You know, he can also move his limbs at super-speed, in addition with his feet.

Hell, even the cartoon Flash shows this.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Then how does Flash make tornados by spinning his arms?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> No he has not shown that abilty in battle. Flash speed is only demonstrated while RUNNING!!!!


Flash runs while battling, it's kinda his thing.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Yes, but it takes him a while to do it. Listen I love the Flash but he is not good in fights. Maybe Someone Should Make A Sonic the Hedghog Vs. Flash thread.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Even cartoon Flash does it quite easily.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

No he does not, The damn Justice League Flash is weak. Flash in the justice League has problems out running explosions.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

_Yes, but it takes him a while to do it. Listen I love the Flash but he is not good in fights._

Walter West, tends to disagree.

On a different note, I always wanted Walter West and Zoom (II) to confront each other. . .

_Maybe Someone Should Make A Sonic the Hedghog Vs. Flash thread._

Oh boy. . .

Anyone fancy a Super Sonic vs. Goku thread?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> No he does not, The damn Justice League Flash is weak. Flash in the justice League has problems out running explosions.




If he's so weak, how come he can move his arms so fast that he can make tornados?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

_No he does not, The damn Justice League Flash is weak. Flash in the justice League has problems out running explosions._

Regardless, he can move his limbs at super-speed. Which, you claim, he can not, and instead can only run fast.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

So what, he can do no damage to Goku the fight is over.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 15, 2006)

Now that I think about it, Flash could fly if he moved his limbs in such a way to propel himself.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

_So what, he can do no damage to Goku the fight is over._

If he wanted to, he can shift speed around in his brain. Accelerate his neurons and slowing his cerebral cortex.

Steal kinetic energy on the get go. I remember that he did stop the world (or at least, a large area) by stealing kinetic energy.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> So what, he can do no damage to Goku the fight is over.



Hey, aren't you the guy who thinks that nothing can hurt Goku, not even galaxy destroying blasts?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _So what, he can do no damage to Goku the fight is over._
> 
> If he wanted to, he can shift speed around in his brain. Accelerate his neurons and slowing his cerebral cortex.
> 
> Steal kinetic energy on the get go. I remember that he did stop the world (or at least, a large area) by stealing kinetic energy.



Someone mentioned that, and it got ignored for some reason.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 15, 2006)

-----

Flash vibrating to avoid attacks does not take anytime, Flash reguarly avoids attack from behind, because the instance he feels it touch his skin he vibrates and becomes intagible. Goku can never get a physical hit on Flash, due to the vibrating abilties, coupled with speed. If a Ki blast does not hit directly, Flash moves around and or becomes intangible and avoids any excess damage. So how does Goku Beat Flash, if he can't actually do damage?

-


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

> Flash vibrating to avoid attacks does not take anytime, Flash reguarly avoids attack from behind, because the instance he feels it touch his skin he vibrates and becomes intagible. Goku can never get a physical hit on Flash, due to the vibrating abilties, coupled with speed. If a Ki blast does not hit directly, Flash moves around and or becomes intangible and avoids any excess damage. So how does Goku Beat Flash, if he can't actually do damage?



Goku can easily use a kiai or a thunder clap to blow Flash away easily. How is the Flash going to hurt Goku?


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku can easily use a kiai or a thunder clap to blow Flash away easily. How is the Flash going to hurt Goku?



Goku uses thunder claps?


----------



## Hiruma (Jul 15, 2006)

Vibrate through his fucking head and make it explode.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

He could, Goku punched so fast the air blew a 2 ton dragon out of the Tenkai tournament in Dragonball. Goku just Screamed and he blew away jeece and berter away.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

_Goku can easily use a kiai or a thunder clap to blow Flash away easily. How is the Flash going to hurt Goku?_

A thunder clap? The hell?

And if you mean expulsion of ki, that can only go on for so long before Goku runs out.

And no, Goku can't shatter the dimensions with a kiai. Only SSJ3 Gotenks, Super Buu, Mystic Gohan, and Vegito can do so.

Plus, even if he was able to, it would only be a hole that would be less than Gotenks' hole. And what good would that be in battle?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Barrister of the Toads said:
			
		

> Vibrate through his fucking head and make it explode.



Yeah right, Flash will be vibrating through an After Image and then Goku clocks his ass.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yeah right, Flash will be vibrating through an After Image and then Goku clocks his ass.



You say that almost as if Goku is faster than the Flash and that the Flash WON'T become intangible to avoid harm from Goku's punches. But that would be silly.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

So. . . what's the argument on Goku's side, so far?

Given advantage is flying.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> So. . . what's the argument on Goku's side, so far?
> 
> Given advantage is flying.



*NOTHING* can hurt Goku


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> So. . . what's the argument on Goku's side, so far?
> 
> Given advantage is flying.



Skills and reflexes.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

Skills. Given.

Reflexes; debatable.

Application. . . well, it depend on how Wally uses his intangibility.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Still, Flash can become intangible all he wants, he still won't win.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

Shift speed in one's brain.


----------



## Dark Evangel (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku can easily use a kiai or a thunder clap to blow Flash away easily. How is the Flash going to hurt Goku?


Goku never uses a thunder clap. That must be fillers but even if he did Flash could ran unto it like breaking the sound barrier since the speed of light > sound


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Still, Flash can become intangible all he wants, he still won't win.



Goku can't win either. He could only hope to blow up the planet, but then he'd die while Flash is chilling with all the speedster hoes in the Speed Force.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Goku can't win either. He could only hope to blow up the planet, but then he'd die while Flash is chilling with all the speedster hoes in the Speed Force.



Goku can blow up the planet and Teleport to heaven.


----------



## Deleted member 15401 (Jul 15, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> Use KC Flash.



why be stupid? there's no point in making a one sided battle, the OB would be a much better place if people actually tried to match levels rather than just fanboying it up and giving their characters the strongest incarnations.

actually another note, all the theoretical powers that people evoke from wallys known abilities are rediculous. i know of his powers and that he can actually be an OP hero, but i mean "oh he'll just shift the speed in goku's brain" or some shit like that, has he ever done that in a canon series before? and if he has, i dont see what the point of having him vsing anyone is in the first place.


----------



## Dark Evangel (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku can blow up the planet and Teleport to heaven.


Teleporting would be very difficult for Goku if the destination is heaven


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

hjkou said:
			
		

> why be stupid? there's no point in making a one sided battle, the OB would be a much better place if people actually tried to match levels rather than just fanboying it up and giving their characters the strongest incarnations.



Exactly. All the fanboys in this dome always put restrictions on DBZverse saying "you can not use the anime or the movies, because it is non canon." Hell if I used the anime and the movies everybody at this forum will be buying me a pancake breakfast.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Exactly. All the fanboys in this dome always put restrictions on DBZverse saying "you can not use the anime or the movies, because it is non canon." Hell if I used the anime and the movies everybody at this forum will be buying me a pancake breakfast.



Aren't you the guy who said Goku can do thunderclaps and become invisible and can see the future?


----------



## Dark Evangel (Jul 15, 2006)

Puting non-canon feats will unbalance the OB. Most especially characters that deserves credits.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 15, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Aren't you the guy who said Goku can do thunderclaps and become invisible and can see the future?



He can! Goku's senses allow him to foresee movement period! Goku can create a shockwave while screaming! He did it against the Ginyu Force. 

Goku became invisisble since Dragonball! Hell Master Roshi and Krillin did not even move only a flash of light appeared and they played Rock Paper Scissors and fought. Becoming invisible is done on a daily basis in Dragonball. Yet the Flash struggles to do so.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Leaf_Jutsu said:
			
		

> Puting non-canon feats will unbalance the OB. Most especially characters that deserves credits.



Not only non-canon feats, but non existant in canon AND non-canon feats like Goku seeing the future.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

_has he ever done that in a canon series before? _

He can do that, if he wanted to.

Walter West did it, who is basically Wally from an alternate universe/timeline, but far more amoral in his vigilantism. Both Walter and Wally possess the same exact powers, from what I remember. Just that Walter does thigns that Wally refrain from doing.

_Exactly. All the fanboys in this dome always put restrictions on DBZverse saying "you can not use the anime or the movies, because it is non canon." _

It's true.

If you want us to use alternate reality feats for characters as well -- Marvel Multiverse or DC Elseworlds -- be our guest.

Non-canon sometimes causes inconsistency, which we try to avoid on both sides of a debate.

_Hell if I used the anime and the movies everybody at this forum will be buying me a pancake breakfast._

Everybody?

Surely you jest.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> He can! Goku's senses allow him to foresee movement period! Goku can create a shockwave while screaming! He did it against the Ginyu Force.
> 
> Goku became invisisble since Dragonball! Hell Master Roshi and Krillin did not even move only a flash of light appeared and they played Rock Paper Scissors and fought. Becoming invisible is done on a daily basis in Dragonball. Yet the Flash struggles to do so.



-Show me where Goku foresee's movement.

-You sure Goku wasn't just powering up then?

-Thats not invisible. That's moving very fast. Something the Flash does ALOT better than Goku.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 15, 2006)

_He can! Goku's senses allow him to foresee movement period!_

At best, a mental Sharingan sans copy. And even then, most DBZ fans will disagree with both you and me.

_Goku can create a shockwave while screaming! He did it against the Ginyu Force. _

Martial artists yell a kiai when they punch. Emphasis, not the actual substance.

_Goku became invisisble since Dragonball! Hell Master Roshi and Krillin did not even move only a flash of light appeared and they played Rock Paper Scissors and fought._

And yet, the stadium did not suffer from sonic booms, and no one was killed nor was there any collateral damage.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 16, 2006)

> *Knowing that an event will take place before it actually occurs.*
> 
> 
> Majin Buu knowing that Mystic Gohan will be born even before it happens! (Gohan is on Kaioshin's planet!!!!) So he prepared himself and delayed time will fighting Gotenksu!
> ...



Keollyn helped me out. DBZ senses allow them to foresee events period move on get over it.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

Curious, does any other DBZ fan agrees with the DBZ warriors possessing precog?

Sigh. . . all over a confusion of terms. . .


----------



## spirishman (Jul 16, 2006)

this is redundant, and besides which flash are you talking about? Barry allen, wally, kid flash, or the almighty flash from kingdom come. I say if it's the kingdom come flash than goku is screwed, regardless of his foreseeing ability, because he may see the future but flash can move faster than thought.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Keollyn helped me out. DBZ senses allow them to foresee events period move on get over it.



Did you not read that page?



> Mr. Popo training Goku! Mr. Popo knew where Goku was going to attack before he moved! Mr. Popo also did not use his eyes!!



So Kakashi can see the future because he can fight genin while reading a book and not actually looking at them? Mr. Popo was just a better fighter.




> The Z senshi knowing that Freiza is still alive in the universe and is coming to earth!



They just sensed his power moving towards them. Its like hearing a loud noise from far away.



> Majin Buu knowing that Mystic Gohan will be born even before it happens! (Gohan is on Kaioshin's planet!!!!) So he prepared himself and delayed time will fighting Gotenksu!



I don't recall this.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 16, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku can easily use a kiai or a thunder clap to blow Flash away easily. How is the Flash going to hurt Goku?



Thunder clap????????

-Ive already posted why Flash wins, and you countered nothing. So, now, you post why Goku can supposedly win. Especially if we ask the question, how is the Goku going to hurt Flash? Vibrating when something has touched him fro behind or by surprise is Flashes most basic defense. 

---

And, if this is Flash Unleashed, all your arguments fall short no matter what you post, and no matter how much you deluded yourself. This is because above all else, Flash Unleashed would travel back in time. Fight Over. 

Go take your medicine... I'll go take mine!:amazed


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 16, 2006)

> regardless of his foreseeing ability, because he may see the future but flash can move faster than thought.



Guess you never heard of Shunkan Idou?


----------



## Deleted member 15401 (Jul 16, 2006)

i dont support this guy who claims goku can thunderclap or whatever.

but im still sticking by my point, as to people taking concepts such as A > B, B > C, A > C
possible situations, but i dont think authors ever intended them


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 16, 2006)

Shika shika boo said:
			
		

> Thunder clap????????
> 
> -Ive already posted why Flash wins, and you countered nothing. So, now, you post why Goku can supposedly win. Especially if we ask the question, how is the Goku going to hurt Flash? Vibrating when something has touched him fro behind or by surprise is Flashes most basic defense.
> 
> ...



Yeah you can travel back in time if you want but that is a show of desperation on your part.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_Guess you never heard of Shunkan Idou?_

It still takes awhile to put your fingers to your head.

It still takes awhile to even begin the thought processes to initiate it.

And if you say Flash has the same computational ability. . . well, even that goes in super speed.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 16, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Keollyn helped me out. DBZ senses allow them to foresee events period move on get over it.



Yeah I helped you. I helped you show me that you seriously can't read and comprehend well. The examples you gave showed nothing of future sight in DBZ.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yeah you can travel back in time if you want but that is a show of desperation on your part.



Does that matter as long as he wins?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_Well I guess Goku or Flash will not touch each other._

A tie, at least. Can you admit that?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 16, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Guess you never heard of Shunkan Idou?_
> 
> It still takes awhile to put your fingers to your head.
> 
> ...




Shunkan Idou takes no time at all for Goku to use in battle! I already posted the scan of him using it naturally! He only puts his fingers to his head when he  does not know where he is going.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 16, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Well I guess Goku or Flash will not touch each other._
> 
> A tie, at least. Can you admit that?



YES I CAN!


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_Shunkan Idou takes no time at all for Goku to use in battle! _

The speed of thought is still required, nonetheless.

_YES I CAN!_

In keeping with the pledge/promise that I made way back in the Vegito vs. Vegito topic, it's time for me to listen to Simon & Garfunkel's "The Boxer."


----------



## spirishman (Jul 16, 2006)

yeah seriously phenomenol, you aren't understanding how fast I'm talking about. Even if it's a natural thing, there's still the necessity of the brain to decide it then send the action to the muscles, the muscles to move, then what ever kind of energy based reaction to happen.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

Now if we can just get him to admit that Goku can't see the future or go invisible.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 16, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yeah you can travel back in time if you want but that is a show of desperation on your part.



When you quoted me, don't type in your own random shit when quoting someone. Quote them properly or dont't quote them at all. Unless you want me to do this : 





			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yeah Goku losses I admit. I am just being an nonsensical fanboy for the hell of it. I mean, we're all one deep down right?  So yeah, I don't wanna give any reasons either I just want to make post with random rambbling in them and twist facts to annoy people. That is my way of ninja! In truth though, Goku has no chance and everyone convinced me of this already, but, I must not relent I AM PHENOMENAL. ( pun o words there)



 Also, you didn't actually provide me with one reason why you think Goku wins and easily no less. If you're going to ramble on about how Goku is going to win, give some fuckign tangiable reason, even if there opinions, even if there insane, give some fuckign tangiable reason. Lastly, "desperation", no it is not. It is a fact Flash travels back in time all the damn time and can do it at will. That's why I said if this is Flash Unleashed and no restriction on the fight Flash wins by default. However, that is not needed anyway, but I was simply pointing out that it is always there and gurantees victory. Goku losses. No, rather, YOU LOSE!:amazed


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 16, 2006)

Shika shika boo said:
			
		

> Don't type in your own random shit when quoting someone. Quote them properly or dont't quote them at all. Also, you didn't actually provide me with one reason why you think Goku wins and easily no less. If you're going to ramble on about how Goku is going to win, give some fuckign tangiable reason, even if there opinions, even if there insane, give some fuckign tangiable reason. Lastly, "desperation", no it is not. It is a fact Flash travels back in time all the damn time and can do it at will. That's why I said if this is Flash Unleashed and no restriction on the fight Flash wins by default. However, that is not needed anyway, but I was simply pointing out that it is always there and gurantees victory. Goku losses. No, rather, YOU LOSE!:amazed



Sorry it is a tie, and you bore me.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_At least_ a tie.

As for the battle. . . well, if Flash manages to over the flying disadvantage, then he's favoured more.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 16, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Sorry it is a tie, and you bore me.



You admited like two post ago that it wasn't. You make Chibi Aya cry, with your reasoning and thus you fail at exsting...

-Disscussion= it is always fun to see if you can convince the immovalble wall; that is to say, your drunken hobo retarded reasonsing.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 16, 2006)

Shika shika boo said:
			
		

> When you quoted me, don't type in your own random shit when quoting someone. Quote them properly or dont't quote them at all. Unless you want me to do this :
> 
> *Okay no problem, I Did not realize you were so sensitive.*
> 
> Also, you didn't actually provide me with one reason why you think Goku wins and easily no less. If you're going to ramble on about how Goku is going to win, give some fuckign tangiable reason, even if there opinions, even if there insane, give some fuckign tangiable reason. Lastly, "desperation", no it is not. It is a fact Flash travels back in time all the damn time and can do it at will. That's why I said if this is Flash Unleashed and no restriction on the fight Flash wins by default. However, that is not needed anyway, but I was simply pointing out that it is always there and gurantees victory. Goku losses. No, rather, YOU LOSE!:amazed



So then lets continue, What is The Flash going to do to Goku?


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 16, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> So then lets continue, What is The Flash going to do to Goku?



Lets continue, fine, but you tell me what is Goku going to do to Flash? I've already said 2 times what Flash will do to Goku.Just tell me!


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> So then lets continue, What is The Flash going to do to Goku?



MAKE HIM FUCKING EXPLODE

GO BACK IN TIME AND KILL HIM AS A BABY

GRAB HIM, GO LIGHTSPEED AND TEAR HIS ARM OFF

INFINITE MASS PUNCH

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 16, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> MAKE HIM FUCKING EXPLODE
> 
> *Too bad Flash won't get close too Goku to do that. Flash will vibrate through nothing but After Images all day.*
> 
> ...



What is wrong with you? You have been hanging on my nuts ever since the Supes vs. Goku thread and you have yet to make a decent argument. All you do is feed off everyone else's post and insult people. You and Maggot do that.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

So you're saying that Goku is faster than the Flash?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_Too bad Flash won't get close too Goku to do that. Flash will vibrate through nothing but After Images all day._

If Goku's faster than Wally.

_That is very desperate, How about I say Goku instant Transmissions and rips Flash's head off._

Interesting, but not a reasonable application of the Instant Transmission.

_LOL! The Flash is not grabbing anybody good luck trying to do that.
_

With flight, I mostly agree.

_That is not strong enough! and it takes Flash a while to charge up to use the damn attack. _

True. And Goku could avoid this by going straight into the air, in the beginning.


----------



## Reznor (Jul 16, 2006)

Oh godddammit.
I'm on page 10 and I see it's up to page 20....... I know what this means. 

Everyone, stopping retracing ground and indulging the people that do. This goes to Phenomenol as well as everyone arguing with him.

For example, noone use the Gotenks example to prove anything, that's useless. Noone say things that you know will let to previous discussions.

Anyway, I'm back on page 10.
I posted:


			
				Reznor said:
			
		

> Version of Flash matters alot for this.
> 
> JLU Flash on CN would get owned. Anyone for Flash is going to have to realize that people's perception of Flash are based off this one so their opinions entering this are going to be for largely for Goku.
> 
> ...


Scorpion 3.14 posted in basic agreement with my post:


> JLU Flash would loose hard, he can get to light speed but his accelerations is faaaaar slower then comic flash, he had to lap the world several times even to gain good speed.
> 
> KC Flash would win this all to easily. He can fly, transverse dimensions as easily as breathing, be everywhere in an entire city at once without ever being seen 24/7 with no rest, and is theorized by fans to be more or less fused with the speed force.
> 
> However, I always assume is the normal cannon Flash unless otherwise stated. In this case Im assumeing its Wally since a) Current Flash is still being worked out in the comic and is depowered ATM and b) He is the most well known Flash. Im also assumeing this is before IC since the fate of the speed force is still being worked out in the new comic.


Now, who agrees with this?

I want to debate Goku beats JLU Flash, but from the assumption that KC Flash wins.

Once again, I'm ignoring page 11-20 and I'd like to get into a discussion that doesn't get back to the same old shit.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

I agree with JLU Flash losing. Most of DC's animated counterparts are weaker than their actual comic counterparts.

Save for Amazo.

I agree with KC Flash winning, even back in the Vegito vs. Vegito thread.

As for Wally, I would say I would favour the battle to him more, but I'm not sure how he would overcome Goku's flight advantage.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

I got it. How about when Goku flies, Flash runs in a circle under him, making a tornado in which Goku can not breath. I can't recall it in the comics, but I saw him do it on the cartoon.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 16, 2006)

Reznor said:
			
		

> Oh godddammit.
> I'm on page 10 and I see it's up to page 20....... I know what this means.
> 
> Everyone, stopping retracing ground and indulging the people that do. This goes to Phenomenol as well as everyone arguing with him.
> ...



------
Modshipness!
You want to debate Jlu flash? As in Justice League Unlimited Flash. Is this because you presume and or now acknowledge Goku losses to Wally West Comic Flash? So there is obviously no debate remaining there. So you want to stir the topic in a diffrent direction. Am I correct? Anyway, I'd say Jlu Flash Losses. He's uses his powers poorly, slowly, inefficently, and is written down even more then Flash in his worst showing in the comic books. JLU Flash has not even shown the ability to vibrate and become intangible, consistently, when somethign touches you bit. In fact, I don't think he's done that once in JLU. Goku beats him, because the speed diffrence is not as massive when we take Jlu Flash, and because Jlu Flash fights like a pansy, and inexperiencetly when compared to Comic Flash. Lastly Goku beats Jlu Flash because he doesn't use a tenth of comic Flashes abilties and those that he does use he use on a lower scale then true flash.   

Kc Flash> Dbz. From what I can remeber Kc Flash existed in diffrent multiple dimension, because he could vibrate so fast, unintentionally.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

> JLU Flash has not even shown the ability to vibrate and become intangible



He vibrated in the show. The episode where he switched bodies with Lex Luthor.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_JLU Flash has not even shown the ability to vibrate _

He can vibrate his body/molecules.

When Luthor's mind was in Flash's body.

And waaayyyyy back in the Superman animated series, when he raced Superman. Vibrated his way out of an ice block.


----------



## Reznor (Jul 16, 2006)

> Modshipness!
> You want to debate Jlu flash? As in Justice League Unlimited Flash. Is this because you presume and or now acknowledge Goku losses to Wally West Comic Flash? So there is obviously no debate remaining there. So you want to stir the topic in a diffrent direction. Am I correct? Anyway, I'd say Jlu Flash Losses. He's uses his powers poorly, slowly, inefficently, and is written down even more then Flash in his worst showing in the comic books. JLU Flash has not even shown the ability to vibrate and become intangible, consistently, when somethign touches you bit. In fact, I don't think he's done that once in JLU. Goku beats him, because the speed diffrence is not as massive when we take Jlu Flash, and because Jlu Flash fights like a pansy, and inexperiencetly when compared to Comic Flash. Lastly Goku beats Jlu Flash because he doesn't use a tenth of comic Flashes abilties and those that he does use he use on a lower scale then true flash.
> 
> Kc Flash> Dbz. From what I can remeber Kc Flash existed in diffrent multiple dimension, because he could vibrate so fast, unintentionally.


 I agree with all this.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 16, 2006)

Shika shika boo said:
			
		

> ------
> Kc Flash> Dbz. From what I can remeber Kc Flash existed in diffrent multiple dimension, because he could vibrate so fast, unintentionally.



And yet Kingdom Come is not in continuity now is it? 

Do you want me to use Movie 6 Goku where he is Using Shunkan Idou instantly and Crossing Dimensions in a blink of an eye.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

> When Luthor's mind was in Flash's body.



Wait a second.....Shika Shika Boo is right. That was Luthor who did it, not Flash.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_I got it. How about when Goku flies, Flash runs in a circle under him, making a tornado in which Goku can not breath. I can't recall it in the comics, but I saw him do it on the cartoon._

Yes, to save people. And he also uses that cyclone effect to remove oxygen.

In this case, I don't see it working; Goku's not going to remain in one spot for that to happen, unless Flash manages to remove the oxygen at a fast enough speed.

_And yet Kingdom Come is not in continuity now is it? _

Different version of a character. Like Pre-Crisis Superman, Energy Superman, OWAW Superman, Superman Prime, All-Star Superman, etc.

_Do you want me to use Movie 6 Goku where he is Using Shunkan Idou instantly and Crossing Dimensions in a blink of an eye._

It's not an alternate version of Goku.


----------



## warrior1000 (Jul 16, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> I got it. How about when Goku flies, Flash runs in a circle under him, making a tornado in which Goku can not breath. I can't recall it in the comics, but I saw him do it on the cartoon.



GOku can IT out of there. He is not going to stay in place waiting to run out of oxygen.


----------



## Jink (Jul 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You people are voting when you nothing about what you are up against.
> 
> Flash can move at trillions of times the speed of light, travel through time, make himself intangible, attack with the force of the mass of a star, steal speed from objects and beings to make them motionless, vibrate straight through matter to destroy it, and trap opponents inside of the speed force.



Damn, I didn't know he could do shit like that. I thought he just ran fast and made lame puns


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

warrior1000 said:
			
		

> GOku can IT out of there. He is not going to stay in place waiting to run out of oxygen.



Or is he? o_O;


----------



## Reznor (Jul 16, 2006)

> Do you want me to use Movie 6 Goku where he is Using Shunkan Idou instantly and Crossing Dimensions in a blink of an eye.


 I say, be willing to argue with using that or without using that, not "I should be able to use this" or "You shouldn't be able to"

Does anyone want to discuss Goku w/ Movie 6 feats allowed vs. KC Flash? (I don't, but I'm leaving up to anyone that does)



> Yes, to save people. And he also uses that cyclone effect to remove oxygen.
> 
> In this case, I don't see it working; Goku's not going to remain in one spot for that to happen, *unless Flash manages to remove the oxygen at a fast enough speed.*


 Even if it _instantly _disappears, he has plenty of time and capablity to escape the no-air zone.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_Damn, I didn't know he could do shit like that. I thought he just ran fast and made lame puns _

Well, thanks to the Speed Force, super speed has a lot of applications.

And I somewhat disagree with the trillions of times faster than lightspeed. Yes, (if) the calculations points to that, but I believe this is a calculation error on the writers' part.

To elaborate.

TRILLIONS of times of lightspeed? I doubt even a plane of existence would be able to handle that.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_I say, be willing to argue with using that or without using that, not "I should be able to use this" or "You shouldn't be able to"_

Mmm.

_Does anyone want to discuss Goku w/ Movie 6 feats allowed vs. KC Flash? (I don't, but I'm leaving up to anyone that does)_

Well, the reason it was brought up is because KC Flash was being discussed, which is essentially non-canon to the actual DCU. And since non-canon was used here, movie 6 was brought up.

KC Flash is an alternate version of the Flash, and _does_ actually exist in Hypertime.

Movie 6 is non-canon, but it's still the same version of Goku used; there's no big, significant difference to canon Goku, as like KC Flash vs. actual DCU Flash.

_Does anyone want to discuss Goku w/ Movie 6 feats allowed vs. KC Flash? (I don't, but I'm leaving up to anyone that does)_

Well, I rather we use Wally for the remainder of this debate, in keeping with what the topic was created for.

_Even if it instantly disappears, he has plenty of time and capablity to escape the no-air zone._

True. He'd choke, but would still be able to move. Which is why I stress Goku's flight advantage.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 16, 2006)

What does Goku do in the movies? 
I've only see movie 1,2, some of the one with Borlly fighting gohan, gotenks and goku, the one with janeba, and the one where ssj3 owns at the end. Actually, I can't remember if janeba and ssj3 are the same movie...

-Ps: Has Kc Flash ever been used in anything besides his kingdom come appearance? If so, did he use the full extent of hsi powers ?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_What does Goku do in the movies? _

Movie 6 was brought it, because it expanded upon how Instant Transmission was used in battle.

I'm assuming that movie 6 is the one with Metal Cooler in it.

_the one with Borlly fighting gohan, gotenks and goku_

Since when did Broly fought Gotenks?

Unless it was Bio-Broly -- which I never saw -- then, alright.

_Actually, I can't remember if janeba and ssj3 are the same movie..._

Yeah, the Rebirth of Fusion. He did -- I have the movie.


----------



## son_michael (Jul 16, 2006)

okay let me just say this.... I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT FLASH FROM THE COMICS

However...I know ALOT about Goku{I have seen every ep of db all the way up to dbgt} and I can tell you the scenario IF flash was faster

*Goku*: Hi im goku! lets have a great fight!
*Flash*: yea..right..whatever you say*grins*
*Goku*: something wrong?
*Flash*: your not gonna be much of an oppenent, you should give up, otherwise you will be dead before you know it
*Goku*: WOW! YOU MUST BE REALLY STRONG! okay I wont hold back!
*Flash*: *dissapears* 
*Goku*:*is getting hit with thousands of flashes punches all over his body* 
*Flash*: *stops* goes back to his original spot* so...are you still alive goku?
*Goku*: *pops up from the floor* WOW! your really fast but your punches werent really strong..sorry! sorry!
*Flash*: what the hell!? but I hit you thousands of times!
*Goku*: sorry... your punches didn't phase me, but you have great speed!
*Flash*: what the hell are you!!?
*Goku*: Me? I am a saiyajin who was raised on Earth, Im Son goku, its nice to meet you
*Flash*: Damm you!!! huh?
*Goku*: Sorry! sorry! but I figure if im up here in the air you cant use your speed against me
*Goku*: Let me get serious
*Flash*: Damm! you wont beat me!*makes a tornado around goku*
*Goku*: yes he fell for it, Solare Flair!
*Flash*: ahhh!!! my eyes!
*[Goku*: Ka, me,ha,meeeeeeee
*Flash*: I cant see! where is he!*starts runing around even though he cant see*
*Goku*: HAAAAAAAAA*aims at the ground and makes a DEEP crater the size of a city
*Flash*: *is falling* *goku teleports in front of him*
*Goku*: Ha*fires energy blast really fast and flash cant dodge because he is in the air and cant see*

Goku either lets flash back up and gives him a senzu or he accidentally kills flash with those enrgy blast..but either way you can clearley see that goku is the winner..the flash cant dodge when he's in the air IF HE WAS FASTER....NOBODY is faster or stronger than GOKU IMO

and that was just 1 of the many many ways goku could beat flash IF flash was faster


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT FLASH FROM THE COMICS_

Well, alrighty.

_but either way you can clearley see that goku is the winner.._

If you don't know anything about comic Flash, then how can you make this statement?

_the flash cant dodge when he's in the air IF HE WAS FASTER_

Intangibility.

_....NOBODY is faster or stronger than GOKU IMO_

Please.

There are characters who are physically stronger than Goku.

There are characters who are physically faster than Goku.

And there are characters who are so damn powerful, Goku's a fly compared to them.

Plus, canon-wise, Mystic Gohan is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku.

_and that was just 1 of the many many ways goku could beat flash IF flash was faster_

Well, I can see this scenario for JLU Flash.

Comic Flash? WAAAAAAYYYYY inaccurate.


----------



## Galt (Jul 16, 2006)

You are aware that Flash being faster also means that his hits will be even harder?  Not knowing about Flash is one thing, but come on, this is basic physics.  The force of a blow comes from both the mass of whatever's hitting, and the acceleration that the assailant can act on it.  If Flash is definitely faster than Goku, given that their body parts are relatively the same mass, then obviously his hits would land harder.  Goku's durability is one thing; he might survive the blows, but he couldn't possibly claim they were of no consequence.  Come on, physics, people.


----------



## Reznor (Jul 16, 2006)

*Spoiler*: _DBZ Movies:_ 




1,2,3 aren't as important. They are almost pre-radditz I believe.

*World's Strongest: *Goku fights scientist-brain in robot. He tries to control Master Roshi since he heard that he was the strongest man in the world. Goku proves he is in the end

*Dead Zone:* Garlic Jr. attacks, wishs for immortality, then kicks then almost defeats Goku and Piccolo. Gohan ends up defeating Garlic and pushing him into the Dead Zone.

*Tree of Might:* Saiyans appear and want to fight Kakarot. 
Earth special forces v. Saiyans

Now, the important ones ^__^
Keep in mind that none of these could actually fit completely into the canon timeline.

*4 - Lord Slug*
Lord Slug, a renegade Namek appears on earth. Pre-Freiza saga but post vegeta saga. Has early version of SSJ.

*5 - Cooler #1*
Cooler, Freiza's brother attacks Goku. Post-freiza saga.

Filler feats: Cooler is pushed with Kamehameha towards the sun. He gets there much faster than light, and seems to think that the sun is an easy target, but kamehameha + sun "kills" him.

*6 - Cooler #2*
Goku and Vegeta fight Metal Cooler. MC is in control of a star turned into a living deathstar with his mind.

Filler feats: Cooler + Goku instant transmission around, and it turns into a form of instant movement that can be intercepted, counter-charged, etc, when the opponent ITs.

Also, Cooler can make hundreds of copies of himself (all over Freiza's level)

*7 - Super Android 13*
13, 14 and 15 fight future Trunks, Vegeta and Goku. They each win there one-on-ones, but the 13 absorbs them and becomes a super android. Spirit bomb fixes that.

*8 - Brolly* Paragus, who was saved by infant son Brolly (PL 10,000 when born) from Freiza destroying the planet on them, convinces Vegeta to come to a planet to rule a new planet Vegeta. Brolly is insane and only under control by Paragus - that goes south...

Filler feats: Brolli throws a blast at a far off planet and destroys it quickly.
Brolli destroyed most of southern galaxy in a short amount of time.
IT used to go everywhere.

*9 - Bojack*
Tournament that aliens decide to attend. All of them kick everyone but Gohan's ass. Gohan kills them.

Filler feats: Goku teleports back to live for a second.

*10 - Brolli 2*
Brolli crashes on earth. Goten, Trunks, Gohan and Videl fight him.

*11 - Bio Brolly* Clone of Brolli that someone wants to pit against Hercule.

He has 18, Trunks, Goten and Krillin fight for him.

*12 - Janemba*
Janemba, a ancient criminal, reappears in hell. Let's everyone out.

Goku and Vegeta fight him. Gogeta wins.
Goten and Trunks fight Hitler. Gotenks wins.
Gohan fights Freiza. One-shot kill.

*13 - Hildegram*
Huge ancient demon released.
Tanks everyone. Dragonfist saves the day.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_Keep in mind that none of these could actually fit completely into the canon timeline._

I don't see how really, for the majority of these movies. An elaboration for each on how they would fit would greatly help.

_Brolli destroyed most of southern galaxy in a short amount of time.
IT used to go everywhere._

Broly knows the IT technique?

And double post, Reznor.


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## son_michael (Jul 16, 2006)

why are you showing all the movies?

anyway...Goku is a fly?!! did you ever see super sayain gotenks go around the world like 7 or 8 times in a matter of minutes?! and goku is STRONGER than him

also...I can make that statement because it was in reference to my made up battle with Goku and flash

Goku can make 3 or 4 duplicates of himself, he can blow up planets,move faster than Flash {IMO},bah there's no need for me to tell you what goku can do...THERE IS NO 1 IN ALL OF ANIME that can beat goku and I highly doubt many{if any!} exist in DC or marvel

 the CONCEPT that flash can even scratch him..is beyond me


----------



## Galt (Jul 16, 2006)

Someone point this guy to the cosmic tier list.  And then cite some random omnipotents in anime, like Lord of Nightmares.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

son_michael said:
			
		

> why are you showing all the movies?
> 
> anyway...Goku is a fly?!! did you ever see super sayain gotenks go around the world like 7 or 8 times in a matter of minutes?! and goku is STRONGER than him
> 
> ...



Are you stuck in 1999 or something?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_anyway...Goku is a fly?!!_

Yes. There are some characters who are so powerful, that to them, Goku would be as insignificant as a fly.

_did you ever see super sayain gotenks go around the world like 7 or 8 times in a matter of minutes?! and goku is STRONGER than him_

No.

Canon-wise, SSJ3 Goku < SSJ3 Gotenks.

And we never know exactly how long did it take Gotenks to travel around the world, and how long did he take to nap.

_also...I can make that statement because it was in reference to my made up battle with Goku and flash_

Actually, I can see that scenario happening with the DCAU Flash.

_Goku can make 3 or 4 duplicates of himself,_

So?

If that was helpful, he would have done it in Z.

_he can blow up planets,_

So? What use is that, if he can't breathe in space?

_move faster than Flash {IMO}_

Doesn't really count; if you have no knowledge of comic Flash, then your opinion is really nothing but favourtism.

_,bah there's no need for me to tell you what goku can do..._

Mmm.

_THERE IS NO 1 IN ALL OF ANIME that can beat goku and I highly doubt many{if any!} exist in DC or marvel_

Please.

There are more powerful characters in the anime that can beat Goku.

And I can list over 3 to 4 dozen comic characters who would destroy Goku.

_the CONCEPT that flash can even scratch him..is beyond me_

For stating that Goku's unbeatable in anime really shows how much you know. Just don't argue that Goku beats an omnipotent being.

_Someone point this guy to the cosmic tier list._

Ha ha. . . glad to see my tier lists being referenced.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 16, 2006)

Reznor said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: _DBZ Movies:_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, thx.
Actually, if we include those, then...
Omg, we could have, Manga Goku, Anime Goku and Movie Goku. Then we could specify which one. So according to above, movie Goku can fire lightspeed beams, and can spam instant transmission in sucession while fighting, and even do a (Warning Hajime No ippo Spoiler)
*Spoiler*: __ 



Reversal Dempsey roll like maneuver


. One thing though, how strong would Brolly be in comparision to Movie ssj3 Goku? Secondly, what do you mean destroyed a Galaxy? Do you mean blew up a galaxy outright?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

Well, it's debatable whether Broly blew up the entire South Galaxy, or merely destroyed it over a period of time.

The rotation of the galaxy suggests a period of time. . . but it's speculation.


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## son_michael (Jul 16, 2006)

ok since I know nothing about comics I wont debate this anymore but I watch anime all the time

WHO CAN BEAT GOKU in anime? people from the dbz universe dont count


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

son_michael said:
			
		

> ok since I know nothing about comics I wont debate this anymore but I watch anime all the time
> 
> WHO CAN BEAT GOKU in anime? people from the dbz universe dont count



Lina Inverse, Lord of Nightmares, Xellos, Phibrizzo, Luna Inverse, anyone using the Galvarya, and thats just from Slayers.


----------



## Galt (Jul 16, 2006)

son_michael said:
			
		

> ok since I know nothing about comics I wont debate this anymore but I watch anime all the time
> 
> WHO CAN BEAT GOKU in anime? people from the dbz universe dont count



Already mentioned Lord of Nightmares.  There's Kami-Sama Tenchi, there's basically anyone who can get their hands on the Death Note, I'm not sure whether or not the jury is still out on the Dark Schneider thing, but he probably could take him, imo.  There's probably more, but in the way of anime I'm not into the "RIDICULOUSLY SUPERPOWERFUL BLOW UP TEH UNIVERSE OMG!!1" sort of thing, so I'll let more informed debaters catch those.


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## Keollyn (Jul 16, 2006)

I'm not seeing how he could do it over a period of time and King Kai FINALLY giving that reaction he gave in the beginning of the movie. Lets think for a moment. King Kai knows Goku personally, right? He knows that if there's ANY sign of trouble, he can call Goku. So what would he do once he senses whole star systems start disappearing one by one? He'll call Goku. He'd not wait till Burori decide to finish the whole galaxy before he calls Goku.


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## Keollyn (Jul 16, 2006)

son_michael said:
			
		

> ok since I know nothing about comics I wont debate this anymore but I watch anime all the time
> 
> WHO CAN BEAT GOKU in anime? people from the dbz universe dont count



I'd put my money on RahXephon. I wouldn' teven want to mention RahXephon after he absorbs Quon's Rah...


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_WHO CAN BEAT GOKU in anime? people from the dbz universe dont count_

Just read the posts.

After all, I'm only a Comic Book Guy.

But to add my two cents, Ideon, the Super Robot.

And what was the time when Broly destroyed the galaxy? I barely remember the related words.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

Is someone going to make the "Who can beat Goku?" thread?


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## Keollyn (Jul 16, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> And what was the time when Broly destroyed the galaxy? I barely remember the related words.



I'm running in sleep mode.... Come again?


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## son_michael (Jul 16, 2006)

I dont even know most of those anime's...

you guys are gonna bring up characters I dont know about...so yea no use for me in this thread

damm...ive seen like 30 anime series and I still dont have missed THAT much? hmm...I shouldve watched rah zephon when it was on G4..

well good luck to all the goku defenders! hopefully you know about flash in the comics..


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_Is someone going to make the "Who can beat Goku?" thread?_

My tier list can help.

_I'm running in sleep mode.... Come again?_

When did he destroy the galaxy? When Goku was a kid, adult, ?

Forgive me for my memory or logical fallicies; it's late.

_I dont even know most of those anime's...

you guys are gonna bring up characters I dont know about...so yea no use for me in this thread

damm...ive seen like 30 anime series and I still dont have missed THAT much?_

Yep. There's always more for one to know, even in the comic book world, or any hobby.

_well good luck to all the goku defenders! hopefully you know about flash in the comics.._

And so, this continues. . .


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## Keollyn (Jul 16, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _I'm running in sleep mode.... Come again?_
> 
> When did he destroy the galaxy? When Goku was a kid, adult, ?
> 
> Forgive me for my memory or logical fallicies; it's late.



No, Goku was an adult. 

Here's the movie (Note: This is the dubbed version. I notice a few discrepency from the dubbed and my subbed. Krillian's singing was marvelous in the subbed)

Click Here!

The conversation with Goku and Kai happens about 8-9 minutes in.


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## kombak (Jul 16, 2006)

im done with this thread but some guys dare saying u lack of comic knowledge , when they dont even know  DB/Z
Since Dragon ball , for US, theyre INVISIBLE when fighting (see kamesenin / krilin fight)
Yet , we know it dbz , power is always strengh + speed
Goku is like what....many billions faster than Krilin at DB time?
many billions allow him...to far exceed the speed of light
But for the show u can not make a whole fight on that speed....invisible fight aint interesting

Bye


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 16, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Goku became invisisble since Dragonball! Hell Master Roshi and Krillin did not even move only a flash of light appeared and they played Rock Paper Scissors and fought._
> 
> And yet, the stadium did not suffer from sonic booms, and no one was killed nor was there any collateral damage.



DBZ universe operates under different rules. Sonic booms would not be included unless it added to the story. Why would an author include that stuff if the result would be everyone else dying?
Look at Roshi destroying the moon for instance. A whole lot of bad shit should have happened due to it not being around, but it doesnt.

Ne Ways. that speed feat was early DB (4th volume i think), and Krillin was much weaker than Roshi but could still achieve that kind of speed. Imagine SSJ3 Goku (who is > than Kid Buu), who is millions of times stronger than DB Krillin.


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## Galt (Jul 16, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> im done with this thread but some guys dare saying u lack of comic knowledge , when they dont even know  DB/Z
> Since Dragon ball , for US, theyre INVISIBLE when fighting (see kamesenin / krilin fight)
> Yet , we know it dbz , power is always strengh + speed
> Goku is like what....many billions faster than Krilin at DB time?
> ...




Ok, I'm gonna pretend that was more than borderline coherent.  

Yes, it's been a proven fact since the very beginning that the DBZ fighters are easily too fast for the human eye to capture.  It's very doubtful that Goku is outright billions of times faster than Krillan in DB time, but let's assume so.  Then he far exceeds the speed of light...yes, never mind the inherent contradictions with physics, yes, he is definitely faster than the speed of light.  Compare to the Flash's speed that allows him to move at definitely beyond the speed of light and onto the Speed Force, faciliating time travel.  Fact is, even with us taking into full account that DBZ characters are in no way slowpokes, that's not enough to simply claim that Goku > Flash.  I'm all for a draw in this situation being very possible.  That infinite momentum thing (shouldn't possibly be infinite mass punch, imo) might settle it for the Flash, but who knows.  Gotta give Goku _some_ credit


----------



## kombak (Jul 16, 2006)

some pple didnt saw it maybe

u know in DBZ , speed ALWAYs ,come up with strengh ,when any character trains
in fact , speed is often even more important than strengh...

Muten roshi destroying the MOON and invisible to human EYES level : 139
SSJ 1 goku when fighting frieza : 150 000 000 , more than 1 million stronger & faster than muten roshi.
goku fighting cell : 2 500 000 000
SSJ3 goku is 4 450 000 000 000 

ssj3 goku is about 32billion time faster than muten roshi , and can blow up 32billion time the moon within one blast

I let u imagine for SSJ4 goku , showing a gap even bigger with ssj3 , than SSJ2/3


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## konflikti (Jul 16, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> Yet , we know it dbz , power is always strengh + speed
> Goku is like what....many billions faster than Krilin at DB time?
> many billions allow him...to far exceed the speed of light
> But for the show u can not make a whole fight on that speed....invisible fight aint interesting
> ...



Again we go with random numbers. Pro-DBZ do this way too much. :|

Power isn't strength + speed in DBZ. It's mainly ki, and then strenght and speed. Powerlevels are far from linear advancement too. They never achieved same damage and destruction with their physical abilities as with their ki-manipulation. No major enemy was ever defeated by punches or kicks(at least in canon, dunno about fillers).

Also, pro-DBZ are happily disregarding the fact that countering planet/solar system/galaxy destroyer with your own beam is not a durability feat.



> Muten roshi destroying the MOON and invisible to human EYES level : 139
> SSJ 1 goku when fighting frieza : 150 000 000 , more than 1 million stronger & faster than muten roshi.
> goku fighting cell : 2 500 000 000
> SSJ3 goku is 4 450 000 000 000
> ...



Can someone confirm me on SSJ Goku? I believe Goku was something like 15 million at best.

Rest of the numbers are made up.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> some pple didnt saw it maybe
> 
> u know in DBZ , speed ALWAYs ,come up with strengh ,when any character trains




Big muscle Trunks vs Cell, anyone?


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## kombak (Jul 16, 2006)

Yep and u saw how much speed is important during that fight

IN DBZ u always train the 2 , together , u gain as much speed as strengh
when u try to break that kind of balance , then u dont do any good...

Konfli



(u can search on the UK wikipedia if u want)
Its from an official DBZ book


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

No, you said that whenever a character gets stronger, everything about them gets stronger. Strength, speed, ki, ect. And the example of Trunks vs Cell shows how that is just not true at all.


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## Kuya (Jul 16, 2006)

Flash is only as strong as a regular human. He doesnt have superstrength like Superman. So obviously his punch is increased because his speed but if he punched Goku, would it really hurt Goku? or tickle him?


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## kombak (Jul 16, 2006)

how ? 
They get strenght and speed together  , breaking the balance give u  a boost in one ...
it is the "ultra super sayajin 1" , every guys were able to do it 
Goku did , in front of gohan in the time chamber to  explain that its not the best idea , and cell did it during his fight gohan too


there are :

SSJ 1 
SSJ1 dai ni dankai 
SSJ1 dai san dankai

then SSJ2


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## Galt (Jul 16, 2006)

Well, that's the whole point of the so-called infinite mass punch, which is an infinite momentum punch, given that he increases his speed to the limit of possibilites, faster than light via the Speed Force, allowing the momentum of his blow to grow ever greater.  The question of course is how far that will carry him.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 16, 2006)

When you reach a new level, not all your stats go up automatically.

Trunks vs Cell is an example of this....Trunks had the power to destroy Cell, he just wasn't fast enough. Get it? Thats kinda the same deal with Flash vs Goku.


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## konflikti (Jul 16, 2006)

Can't really trust wikipedia on that. Most fan-sites say 15,000,000. I'll see trough my scans.


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## kombak (Jul 16, 2006)

its not about wikipedia , but about an official book...just go UK wikipedia to read if u cant read french.

anyway im done with this thread ^^


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## konflikti (Jul 16, 2006)

Wikipedia entries can be faulty. English one doesn't have powerlevels. It's rather ridiculous that Goku would jump from 90,000(180,000 after powering up) on arrival to 3 million base just like that.


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## Dark Evangel (Jul 16, 2006)

Konoha Elite said:
			
		

> Flash is only as strong as a regular human. He doesnt have superstrength like Superman. So obviously his punch is increased because his speed but if he punched Goku, would it really hurt Goku? or tickle him?


The infinite mass punch was able to hurt Flash's oponents with class 100 strength so that would definetly hurt Goku.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> Now that I think about it, Flash could fly if he moved his limbs in such a way to propel himself.



Flash wouldn't be able to fly i remember him running some bad guy in the air and he was going to fall and die,, superman had to save him.


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## Aruarian (Jul 16, 2006)

Which version of Flash was that, though? Flash might be able to create an aircushion.


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## Viciousness (Jul 16, 2006)

Goku's original SSJ pl was never stated except in a Douzinshi not written by Toriyama himself. Last given power level is Freeza form 2 which is over a million. Freeza form three beat piccolo who was even stronger than that, and form 4 using less than 25% I think beat the hell out of Vegeta who was even stronger than that. SSJ goku was better than 100% Freeza, so a 15 million estimate probably isnt far off.

And on Namek the power levels were jumping like crazy, from Gohans, to Vegetas to Gokus. Plus he had 20x Kaioken which made him almost hold his own against 50% freeza.If freeza really was 12 mill and 50% 6 mill, then Goku's base would be 300k not 3 mill.

Then you gotta take into account Goku getting strong enough to hold off trunks and his sword with one finger a year later, a trunks that was said to be as strong as he was on namek. Next training to face the androids his power increased yet again, then theirs cell's three forms and Goku maxing out his SSJ power, then SSJ2 Goku killing the cell jr's which were as powerful as the SSJs, with a single hit. Regular Perfect Cell claimed to be able to destroy the solar system, and Super Perfect was alot stronger.

SSJ2 Goku surpassed his power, and SSJ3 was in a different league altogether. From SSJ on Namek, to SSJ3 against Buu Goku's power may have well increased over a hundred fold.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> Which version of Flash was that, though? Flash might be able to create an aircushion.



Happened in the Justice League comic, he charged the guy in the air and he would have died if he hit the bottom.


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## Aruarian (Jul 16, 2006)

Well yeah, that's JL Flash.


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## Psysalis (Jul 16, 2006)

Those are some intresting facts about flash but i have a question since i dont know all that much about him. Does he Actually have the power to put goku out for good? I mean goku is pretty damn strong and im just wondering how flash can really beat him.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> Well yeah, that's JL Flash.



I am not on about the anime version of the flash, it happened to him inside of the comic where he is still able to do much of his skills.

He can not fly. Guy above yes he has the power to do so what people don't realise is Goku also has the power to Kill him, and i beleive he would do so whilst flash can run really fast on the ground Goku can fly, Flashs speed would pretty much become useless if he can not see of find Goku all he could do is dodge.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_Those are some intresting facts about flash but i have a question since i dont know all that much about him. Does he Actually have the power to put goku out for good? I mean goku is pretty damn strong and im just wondering how flash can really beat him._

Well, Wally has a myriad of applications at his disposal.

If he was serious, on the first-get go, he steals Goku's kinetic energy -- rendering him motionless -- then shift the speed in his brain for a K.O.

Of course, due to his moral character, he wouldn't do the second action.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> If he was serious, on the first-get go, he steals Goku's kinetic energy -- rendering him motionless -- then shift the speed in his brain for a K.O.
> 
> Of course, due to his moral character, he wouldn't do the second action.



How does stealing his speed actually work, i always beleived it was the kinetic energy whilst he was running, if so goku could still move by charging up his ki and converting to kinetic energy again.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> If he was serious, on the first-get go, he steals Goku's kinetic energy -- rendering him motionless -- then shift the speed in his brain for a K.O.
> 
> Of course, due to his moral character, he wouldn't do the second action.



How does stealing his speed actually work, i always beleived it was the kinetic energy whilst he was running, if so goku could still move by charging up his ki and converting to kinetic energy again.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

Double post.

_How does stealing his speed actually work,_

Rendering Goku immoveable.

_i always beleived it was the kinetic energy whilst he was running,_

Not really. He didn't ran when he tried to stop the world (or a large area -- I can't remember whcih exactly).

_if so goku could still move by charging up his ki and converting to kinetic energy again._

Ki can be converted to kinetic energy?

Forgive me, but isn't ki used as a destructive force and for flight?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

Goku will be, using the most generous figures, moving at the speed of a snail from the Flash's perspective.

I honestly don't see how Flash can lose this.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

Well, would the removal of kinetic energy counter Goku's flight advantage?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

Of course it would.

If he can't move, he can't fly.


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## superbatman86 (Jul 16, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Well, would the removal of kinetic energy counter Goku's flight advantage?


It would if his ability to steal energy was greater than Goku's ability to put out energy which using all of Flash's speed stealing feats don't even compare to Goku's energy outputting feats.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_If he can't move, he can't fly._

It affects his physical movement, yes.

But ki is used to sustain flight, and I somewhat doubt that ki shares similiar properties to kinetic energy.

Then again. . .


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## Endless Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> It would if his ability to steal energy was greater than Goku's ability to put out energy which using all of Flash's speed stealing feats don't even compare to Goku's energy outputting feats.



That's not the way it works.

Stealing speed steals all kinetic energy.

Only momentum is left.

So in other words, he will just keep moving in the direction he was moving in, but be unable to move himself in any way.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> Ki can be converted to kinetic energy?
> 
> Forgive me, but isn't ki used as a destructive force and for flight?



Well yes it can seeing as the more they power up the faster they can move, the ki energy can be put into movement. So if Flash steals his Speed he can in some regards power up and move again.



> Of course it would.
> 
> If he can't move, he can't fly.



Wrong, he wouldn't steal the speed, if he pushes the ki on the ground it causes him to move not related to flash stealing the speed from which he is moving.



> So in other words, he will just keep moving in the direction he was moving in, but be unable to move himself in any way.



Untill he powers up, if he powers up he would gain energy needed to move if he decides to convert it.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_Well yes it can seeing as the more they power up the faster they can move, the ki energy can be put into movement. So if Flash steals his Speed he can in some regards power up and move again._

But doesn't ki enhance what is naturally there? As with the USSJ, where Trunks converts ki into strength, sacrificing speed.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> But doesn't ki enhance what is naturally there? As with the USSJ, where Trunks converts ki into strength, sacrificing speed.



Right, i always though Flash stole the speed which they carried at the time or what their potential was. Well if Goku is stood there or moving at a speed and he stole his speed, he would continue in the same direction, then he would use more ki and covert it to his movement, meaning he would again continue to move as flash does not steal his Ki.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

If he just stole their current speed, then anyone he did this to could just move themselves again and get new speed.

Yet they can't, so it doesn't work that way.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> If he just stole their current speed, then anyone he did this to could just move themselves again and get new speed.
> 
> Yet they can't, so it doesn't work that way.



People he still from do not have ki now do they? Exactly, i stick by my beleif that he would convert his ki into Kinetic energy creating more of it unless he when he steals speed he shuts of the ability to reproduce kinetic energy which i doubt.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

It obviously does, because if it didn't people he froze would just be able to move again by generating new KE.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> It obviously does, because if it didn't people he froze would just be able to move again by generating new KE.



Not really because their kinetic energy would have been stolen, since ki can be used as a mean to aplify kinetic energy and flash wouldn't steal his speed, he would use more ki to give him kinetic energy thus being able to move. Whilst it would work on others it could possibly not work on Goku if he rekicks his kinetic energy with ki. Seeign as he can use ki to move.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 16, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> When you reach a new level, not all your stats go up automatically.
> 
> Trunks vs Cell is an example of this....Trunks had the power to destroy Cell, he just wasn't fast enough. Get it? Thats kinda the same deal with Flash vs Goku.



Yes.

Trunks' USSJ was a faulty mode. He allocated the ki from his speed to his strength so he could best Cell. But he lost his speed. It wasnt really a knew level, just a different way of allocating his ki.
It states later that Gohan did the transformation the correct way (SSJ2), as his strength increased along with his speed.

Also i always thought Gokus pwr was 15,000,000 aganist Freiza. Meh.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

He doesn't use ki to move, he uses ki to power up his muscles, which allow him to move.

Perhaps if he could use his ki in a technique like the one Ishida used against Mayuri in Bleach, it could work, but there's no evidence that he can do anything like that.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> He doesn't use ki to move, he uses ki to power up his muscles, which allow him to move.
> 
> Perhaps if he could use his ki in a technique like the one Ishida used against Mayuri in Bleach, it could work, but there's no evidence that he can do anything like that.



He could use ki to move, that is how they fly, so if he stole his speed i guess he couldn't run, he would still fly up in the air as that is based on Ki not kinetic energy.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

Flash has frozen flyers before, they were unable to move or fly.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> Flash has frozen flyers before, they were unable to move or fly.



Goku flies using speed, completly diffrent, he can not steal Goku's ki, flight for dbz character relies on ki to push them since he can not shut of Goku ki force he would emit ki and continue to move.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

And this is so different from the flight mechanism of DC flyers that it will matter?

It's basically the same thing.

If you're frozen, you're frozen.

You can't do anything with any of your powers, doesn't matter how they work.


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## Kisame. (Jul 16, 2006)

zz this is still going on.

goku cant hit Flash at All.

end of discussion.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 16, 2006)

Maybe it should be cleared up on how 'stealing speed' works.

When you get your speed stolen, you begin to slow down. You don't charge ki as fast, you don't do anything as fast. Once your speed is stolen, you're frozen. It's completely beyond 'ki' or anything like that: It's simply Flash taking all the kinetic energy from his body that allows him to operate, basically putting him into stasis. If the Flash steals Goku's speed, there is no way he can get out of it.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> And this is so different from the flight mechanism of DC flyers that it will matter?



Um yes it is, as once the kinetic energy stops they stop moving. Since flight requires ki they will continue to fly as he will not shut of the ki, the kii will push the body.



> If you're frozen, you're frozen.



And if the ki pushes you you move, flash does not freeze their ki.



> You can't do anything with any of your powers, doesn't matter how they work.



yes it does, as flash does not freeze their ki, they can still push themselves with it as it isnt kinetic energy to be frozen.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> Maybe it should be cleared up on how 'stealing speed' works.
> 
> When you get your speed stolen, you begin to slow down. You don't charge ki as fast, you don't do anything as fast. Once your speed is stolen, you're frozen. It's completely beyond 'ki' or anything like that: It's simply Flash taking all the kinetic energy from his body that allows him to operate, basically putting him into stasis. If the Flash steals Goku's speed, there is no way he can get out of it.



Well in my eyes i see things diffrent, like i beleived he stole the speed they have at the time? So if they are travelling at a high speed they loose it and stop skid all over the place.

Ki is like a seperate source somewhat, it doesn't have kinetic energy to steal so he wouldn't be able to steal it, it can be used to move. In anycase Flash has to make contact to steal someones speed in the first place.


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## Kisame. (Jul 16, 2006)

> yes it does, as flash does not freeze their ki, they can still push themselves with it as it isnt kinetic energy to be frozen.



Movement IS kinetic energy.

If it has mass and is moving its affected.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 16, 2006)

Does not matter the Flash lost 10 pages ago. Goku wins EASILY!!!


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> Movement IS kinetic energy.
> 
> If it has mass and is moving its affected.



But Ki is really a feeling, if he uses the ki to move it would turn to kinetic energy the flash would not have stole.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_Does not matter the Flash lost 10 pages ago. Goku wins EASILY!!!_

So, what happened to the 'at least a tie' earlier?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 16, 2006)

Um, no.

If that was true, anyone frozen could just use their stored energy (in whatever form it took) to move themselves again.

But they can't.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> If that was true, anyone frozen could just use their stored energy (in whatever form it took) to move themselves again.



He would steal their speed, Kinetic energy so they wouldn't be able to move, since Ki is not kinetic energy it wouldn't be affected, he can then push his ki to make him move.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

It'd be an external force moving an inert object. . . but wouldn't that transform potential energy into kinetic energy anyways?


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## Kisame. (Jul 16, 2006)

> He would steal their speed, Kinetic energy so they wouldn't be able to move, since Ki is not kinetic energy it wouldn't be affected, he can then push his ki to make him move.



dude kinetic energy isnt some fancy term for chakra or ki.

its movement of atoms and molecules.

ALL movement is gone. Its impossible to move.

Flash is the god of speed.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 16, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> But Ki is really a feeling, if he uses the ki to move it would turn to kinetic energy the flash would not have stole.



*Sigh*

Do you understand what Stasis _is_? When Flash steals all his speed, Goku can't think, react, or do ANYTHING but act like a statue. It doesn't matter if he still has his ki or whatever: He's literally frozen, since there is no kinetic energy in his body which is necessary for things like movement and other things. He's just frozen in time, basically.

He doesn't need to steal his ki. Ki is irrelevent. Once your kinetic energy is gone, you can't move, period. Nothing in your body is moving, not electrical impulses along your synapses that allow you to think or anything like that. Goku can't THINK with Ki. If he loses all his kinetic energy, he can't do anything and he's doomed.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

Hmm. . . I didn't consider that. . . I suppose kinetic energy is needed to fire the synapses and neurons. . . _sounds_ logical. . . but is it right?

Good one, I must say. Not many posts actually put me in deep thought.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> dude kinetic energy isnt some fancy term for chakra or ki.
> 
> its movement of atoms and molecules.
> 
> ...



Right i know what kinetic energy is, lets say ki is potential energy. Whilst Flash steals his speed in the form of Kinetic energy he does not steal his Potential energy.

The ki being potential energy is transformed to Kinetic energy which the flash wouldnt have stolen due to being new he moves around.

The ki being potential energy is used to fly.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_The ki being potential energy is transformed to Kinetic energy which the flash wouldnt have stolen due to being new he moves around.

The ki being potential energy is used to fly._

Not really so.

Potential energy is potential energy.

If the conversion was still intact, then the person that Flash steals speed from would still be able to convert th potential energy in their body into new kinetic energy to move.

However, since they remain immoveable, such is not the case.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> If the conversion was still intact, then the person that Flash steals speed from would still be able to convert th potential energy in their body into new kinetic energy to move.
> 
> However, since they remain immoveable, such is not the case.



But what i am saying, is does removing speed stop thought completly, if so i guess he would remain still, if not he would fly away as ki is mind based in some terms.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 16, 2006)

No, you're trying to use physics while directly contradicting them. When he starts using it to fly (Again, he wouldn't even be able to THINK about flying and or moving, let alone shaping ki), it would turn from potential to kinetic energy, which would simply be stolen by the Flash.

Two things: How can he charge up ki when he can't think, due to any sort of movement at the atomic level being stopped? 

And how would that help when it would simply be absorbed into the Flash? He'd still be going insanely slow because so much of his kinetic energy has already been drained, while Flash will have been speed up with Goku's own energy. Hell, at this point, he could steal all of Goku's speed, give it Linda and let _her_ defeat him.


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## Gunners (Jul 16, 2006)

> No, you're trying to use physics while directly contradicting them. When he starts using it to fly (Again, he wouldn't even be able to THINK about flying and or moving, let alone shaping ki), it would turn from potential to kinetic energy, which would simply be stolen by the Flash.



He would have to steal the newly created Kinetic energy again, if more is created then he would not have stole that, like if i mug someone a muffin and he gets another one he isnt a muffin short need to steal that one again.

can't qoute the rest too tired.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 16, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> He would have to steal the newly created Kinetic energy again, if more is created then he would not have stole that, like if i mug someone a muffin and he gets another one he isnt a muffin short need to steal that one again.
> 
> can't qoute the rest too tired.



My God, this is pointless.

The problem is, he can't use his ki if he can't think. He's in STASIS, which means that his mind isn't active at all, as nothing is travelling across his brain synapses. To my knowledge, one has to consciously think to mold ki. If Goku can't think, we could have a troop of retarded kids go up and poke knives into him 'til he's cut to pieces. If his kinetic energy is stolen, it doesn't matter how much ki he has, he can't mold it because he can't think.

Secondly, he can just continually steal his ki and plow him with his own energy. Once his energy begins to turn into flight or whatever, he can just steal it again and hit him harder. So either way, he's fucked.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 16, 2006)

_He would have to steal the newly created Kinetic energy again, if more is created then he would not have stole that, like if i mug someone a muffin and he gets another one he isnt a muffin short need to steal that one again._

If the conversion is still intact.

Since the people remain immoveable in the comics, it's logical the speculate that the conversion to kinetic energy has bee blocked.


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## warrior1000 (Jul 17, 2006)

Flash will not have an easy time stealing Goku's speed. If you seen DBZ Goku is way faster than a normal human, a normal humans neurons signals travel like 10 mph, so with Goku's speed being so great his neurons are movng way faster than normal humans, and with that he has greater reation time and since all neural signals come from the brain, his brain would also have to think very fast and send out these signals.

Now Flash is said to be Faster than an average man can think, we know he is way faster than 10 mph, but Goku's thinking speed in not normal either.

P.S. note that the 10 mph speed is for a brain signal to tranmitted from the brain to the finger tip.


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## Aruarian (Jul 17, 2006)

Ten miles per hour? I'm pretty sure it ought to be faster than that.


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## warrior1000 (Jul 17, 2006)

no i did the calculations in 9th grade, but i think i gets faster as one grows older, meaning prime, than it drops back down.

So let say a fully grown adult, lets say about 15 mph.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 17, 2006)

And the Flash moves at many times lightspeed on average.


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## Gunners (Jul 17, 2006)

> And the Flash moves at many times lightspeed on average.



On adverage, no he doesn't why are you posting bogus facts, in hopes of luring people who know little in to false beleifs, on adverage he doesn't move ''many times'' light speed, he doesn't even travel light speed that often.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 17, 2006)

He does when he is up against a fast opponent.


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## Gunners (Jul 17, 2006)

> He does when he is up against a fast opponent.



Yes, but you said on adverage he moves many times faster than light which is a lie, if it is only against fast people it is hardly his adverage speed now, is it?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 17, 2006)

It should have been obvious that I didn't mean he did that when there was no need to.


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## Gunners (Jul 17, 2006)

> It should have been obvious that I didn't mean he did that when there was no need to.



The impression i got is you were trying to get ignorant people to call your shit. When you state.

''He moves many times faster than light on adverage'' it will suggest one thing to people who are reading, adverage is what the person does all the time, fighting fast people is an occassion. The impression you gave out was he moves that speed as often as he breaths.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 17, 2006)

It's not my fault if you have trouble with reading comprehension.


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## Gunners (Jul 17, 2006)

> It's not my fault if you have trouble with reading comprehension.



Don't blame this shit on me, if some guy who didn't know much on the flash what would he assume from your words, for some reason i feel that your intentions were that exactly.

When you say someone does something on adverage it suggests only one thing, especially since you had nothing else suggesting it in one contex.


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## Kisame. (Jul 17, 2006)

> Ten miles per hour? I'm pretty sure it ought to be faster than that.



the brain is small. Thats fast for traveling in something much smaller than a mile.


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## superbatman86 (Jul 17, 2006)

Ki isn't kenetic energy so he can't steal it.Since no one has ever even implied in the manga that it was we assume that it isn't.


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## Kisame. (Jul 17, 2006)

> Ki isn't kenetic energy so he can't steal it.Since no one has ever even implied in the manga that it was we assume that it isn't.




...... schools are failing us.

KINETIC Energy = anything in motion.


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## superbatman86 (Jul 17, 2006)

X2q said:
			
		

> ...... schools are failing us.
> 
> KINETIC Energy = anything in motion.


That applies in our world and in DC but it to assume that people fly by converting ki into kinetic energy when in the DB universe is wrong.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 17, 2006)

It does not matter because Flash won't get the chance to steel Goku's speed. Unless some people here think Goku is just going to stand their and let Flash run around him and do that.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 17, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> It does not matter because Flash won't get the chance to steel Goku's speed. Unless some people here think Goku is just going to stand their and let Flash run around him and do that.



I think you're the only one here who thinks that Goku is faster than the Flash.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 17, 2006)

It is arguable that Goku's Combat speed and reflexes are faster than the Flash! Obviously you know nothing of the Flash because if you did you would know that it takes time for him to reach lightspeed.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 17, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> It is arguable that Goku's Combat speed and reflexes are faster than the Flash! Obviously you know nothing of the Flash because if you did you would know that it takes time for him to reach lightspeed.



Because you have absolutely no proof of Goku's speed other than it's really, really fast.

The Flash getting up to Lightspeed isn't that much time, and he wouldn't need anything like that against Goku. If we watch Goku's top flying speed (Since battle speed in ANYTHING is slower), he's a great deal slower than the Flash. He's never done anything even closely comparable to the Flash. Considering that IT relies on Ki (Which Flash wouldn't have enough of a signature to lock on to), Goku would likely be in even more trouble, since Goku's main defense is his ki-sensing abilities. If he could lose someone like Cell, who has a MASSIVE amount of Ki, in the middle of a battle, then he'll have no chance against someone like the Flash, who is easily quicker and has almost no ki to speak of.

Watch him fight Zoom and circle the earth something like 70 times in a second. No one in the DBZ universe has anything close to that.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 17, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> It is arguable that Goku's Combat speed and reflexes are faster than the Flash! Obviously you know nothing of the Flash because if you did you would know that it takes time for him to reach lightspeed.



Even if that were true, about Flash needing alot of time to go lightspeed, not like Goku could do anything about. He's not fast enough to stop him from going to lightspeed.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 17, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> Because you have absolutely no proof of Goku's speed other than it's really, really fast.
> The Flash getting up to Lightspeed isn't that much time, and he wouldn't need anything like that against Goku. If we watch Goku's top flying speed (Since battle speed in ANYTHING is slower), he's a great deal slower than the Flash.



Rewatch battles. Roshi can run 100m in like 6 seconds, but can fight and have a rock-paper-scissor match so quickly that no human can see it.



> He's never done anything even closely comparable to the Flash. Considering that IT relies on Ki (Which Flash wouldn't have enough of a signature to lock on to), Goku would likely be in even more trouble, since Goku's main defense is his ki-sensing abilities.



Ki shields? reflexes? He has other stuff. I agree its his main defence against opponents, but he never had it up till Frieza, so without it hes not useless (Freiza never had it).



> If he could lose someone like Cell, who has a MASSIVE amount of Ki, in the middle of a battle, then he'll have no chance against someone like the Flash, who is easily quicker and has almost no ki to speak of.



Goku can lock onto low ki. He needs a high one for if they are far away, but he has no problem in short range.
Ne ways, Cell has this thing where he can hide his ki, which Flash doesnt sooo... 



> Watch him fight Zoom and circle the earth something like 70 times in a second. No one in the DBZ universe has anything close to that.



Gotenks


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 18, 2006)

_Roshi can run 100m in like 6 seconds, but can fight and have a rock-paper-scissor match so quickly that no human can see it._

No sonic booms.

_Gotenks_

Debatable, due to the absence of numerical figures.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 18, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Rewatch battles. Roshi can run 100m in like 6 seconds, but can fight and have a rock-paper-scissor match so quickly that no human can see it.



Wow, 100m in 6 seconds?! OMG!

The Flash, while testing Blue Superman's Speed, went from Buenos Aires to Bejing in .003 seconds. Slightly, _slightly_ faster.

How about this as an example of Goku's speed vs. Flash's speed.

Goku is facing Kid Buu, and Kid Buu readies a planet destroying attack. Goku is only fast enough to save one person. He saves Mr. Satan, leaving both his sons, his wife, and his friends to die.

The Flash is able to save an entire Korean city of 500,000 people in less than a second.

I think (And maybe I'm just assuming this), that the Flash has an ever-so-small edge in speed.



> Ki shields? reflexes? He has other stuff. I agree its his main defence against opponents, but he never had it up till Frieza, so without it hes not useless (Freiza never had it).



Ki Shield, maybe. Reflexes? No chance in HFIL. Still, Wally could get enough force to break through a ki shield, or simply start to slow Goku down enough so that he could pummel him at will.



> Goku can lock onto low ki. He needs a high one for if they are far away, but he has no problem in short range.
> Ne ways, Cell has this thing where he can hide his ki, which Flash doesnt sooo...



Because he's had to lock on to low kis how many times in a mega-high speed battle?

Flash's ki is to the point where it is completely neglible, like any other human. Cell can't completely block out his own ki, he can only lower it enough so that it can't be sensed. That's probably around the Flash's level. And considering he's much, much slower, Goku will have many more problems locking on. An example of someone completely hiding their power is Trunks when he meets Freiza (And consequently, the last use of a scouter). He registers at the magic "5", which is any human on the planet. 



> Gotenks



Do you even know your own Dragonball Feats? Gotenks took 30 minutes (With a nap, yes) to circle the world 5 times. Now let's look at the other side of the equation: In that amount of time, Zoom and Wally could have circled the globe over 126,000 times.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but 5 < 126,000, right?


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## Zeig (Jul 18, 2006)

Id make a guess and say.....Goku.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 18, 2006)

Zeig said:
			
		

> Id make a guess and say.....Goku.



Wow. Brilliant Hypothesis. Got any reasoning behind that?

Edit: How did I miss this jewel?



			
				superbatman86 said:
			
		

> That applies in our world and in DC but it to assume that people fly by converting ki into kinetic energy when in the DB universe is wrong.



No, it's not in the least. Unless the DBZ universe operates on a completely different set of physical laws (Devoid of things like Gravity and other things as well), kinetic energy is necessary for movement. Kinetic energy, by definition, is expended in any sort of movement, as something needs to be there to move you. Logically, then, it can be assumed that for DBZ to work, that Ki would be converted into some form of Kinetic energy so as to allow Goku and others to fly.

Otherwise, provide some sort of proof that Goku doesn't require Kinetic energy to fly or even move for that matter.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 18, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> Because you have absolutely no proof of Goku's speed other than it's really, really fast.
> 
> *Goku's Fighting speed is faster than light. Prooven how they dodge Ki blasts. Goku simply disappears then reappears. These are facts. Flash will be running through After Images all day. I can post where Zum gave Flash Motion Sickness with his After Images:amazed *
> 
> ...



I have the Flash vs. Zoom fights, and the Flash was getting his ass kicked even tripped. Hell Zoom was so impressed with his speeds because he was becoming invisible, wow Goku can jump side to side and become invisible in Dragonball. Throughout that fight it was mostly running and I was not impressed with either of them.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 18, 2006)

> Goku's Fighting speed is faster than light. Prooven how they dodge Ki blasts. Goku simply disappears then reappears. These are facts. Flash will be running through After Images all day. I can post where Zum gave Flash Motion Sickness with his After Images.



No, it's not. He never even creates a sonic boom with his disappearing. If anything (especially by watching the anime), it's far, far slower than light. It's never, ever compared to light speed, ever, and never ever even makes a sonic boom. For that to happen, they'd have to be moving at sub-sonic speeds.

And I'd like to say something real quick on the concept of "Moving at their speed": If you watch the show, it's obvious that everything is still filmed at regular speed since everything being blown up still moves at a regular physical speed.

On Zoom making Wally sick with after-images: Zoom moves so much faster than Wally that he makes after-images to him, which is impressive since Flash's speed and reflexes push and can exceed the light barrier. Goku has nothing close to that.




> Baseless claims. Flash only has traveling speeds faster than Goku not Combat speeds.Flash gets physically punished by characters like Captain Boomerang and Gorilla Grodd. Flash travelling to lightspeed does take time. I can post where It took flash 4 pages to actually hit Zum (White Martian) and he didn't really punch him technically. He ran right into him with is fist outstretched. So no the speed you speak of in battle is false, Goku can match Flash in Combat speeds and reflexes. Also Goku's senses allow him to Forsee the Flash's movements plus Goku's Speed is something that the Flash is going to have to deal with. Using Instant Transmission is overkill, So please do not try to make up stuff. I own alot of Flash Comics I like the Hero he is one of my favorites.



Ha. "I like the hero" is the defense of someone who is desperately trying to look credible. Flash has beaten people like Zoom and the Anti-Monitor, people with power far beyond Goku and his enemies.

Secondly, he hit Zum (If I'm thinking of the right one), by passing him completely and then hitting him with a Infinite Mass Punch. Instant Transmission would get owned, as referenced earlier in a picture: Instant teleportation takes thought, something that the Flash is physically faster than. Goku has never been able to fight with IT on, nor track something that has an extremely low ki. Goku would get anhillated.




			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> I have the Flash vs. Zoom fights, and the Flash was getting his ass kicked even tripped.



Indeed. Zoom is easily tier 7, and could wipe the floor with most non-cosmics.



> Hell Zoom was so impressed with his speeds because he was becoming invisible, wow Goku can jump side to side and become invisible in Dragonball.



Firstly, Zoom was new to speed, and Zoom was becoming invisible to Wally, who was moving past the speed of light at the time. Turning invisible is something that Wally can do in his sleep through simple vibration at the correct speed. Let's think about this...

Fact: Goku never creates a sonic boom with his speed during battle. Thusly, he can't be moving faster than the speed of sound whenever he fights.

Fact: Zoom can create a sonic boom by snapping his fingers.

Zoom>>Flash>>Goku



> Throughout that fight it was mostly running and I was not impressed with either of them.



I wasn't particularly impressed with anything you've brought forwards as a Dragonball Feat to date. Whatever your opinion of the battle is, you have nothing


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## Phenomenol (Jul 18, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> Do you even know your own Dragonball Feats? Gotenks took 30 minutes (With a nap, yes) to circle the world 5 times. Now let's look at the other side of the equation: In that amount of time, Zoom and Wally could have circled the globe over 126,000 times.
> 
> Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but 5 < 126,000, right?



Wrong, Obviously you do not know anything of Dragonball.

1) From the Dragonball Tonkounbon volume 40, page 139 Gotenks: *" I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap." *I presume this is where the 24-36 times comes from.

It is obvious that he did that in a second not even trying..


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 18, 2006)

_1) From the Dragonball Tonkounbon volume 40, page 139 Gotenks: " I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap." I presume this is where the 24-36 times comes from.

It is obvious that he did that in a second not even trying.._

Incorrect.

There's no numerical figures given in measuring the times of the travel and the nap.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 18, 2006)

See, you say that like 36 vs. 70 and 36 vs. 126,000 actually matters.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 18, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> Indeed. Zoom is easily tier 7, and could wipe the floor with most non-cosmics.
> 
> *Your chatting Garbage.*
> 
> ...



Btw asking for feats on a show based almost entirely around martial arts is the dumbest thing ever


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 18, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> Wow, 100m in 6 seconds?! OMG!
> 
> The Flash, while testing Blue Superman's Speed, went from Buenos Aires to Bejing in .003 seconds. Slightly, _slightly_ faster.



*sigh*

Your statement:
"Since battle speed in ANYTHING is slower"
I proved you wrong.

ON top of that that was a roshi at 137.
Goku is literally millions of times stronger.




> How about this as an example of Goku's speed vs. Flash's speed.
> 
> Goku is facing Kid Buu, and Kid Buu readies a planet destroying attack. Goku is only fast enough to save one person. He saves Mr. Satan, leaving both his sons, his wife, and his friends to die.



Wife and friends are dead (outside of Piccolo). 
He doesnt think of his sons until Vegeta mentions it.
PLus he was trying to convince Buu not to fire the blast.



> The Flash is able to save an entire Korean city of 500,000 people in less than a second.
> 
> I think (And maybe I'm just assuming this), that the Flash has an ever-so-small edge in speed.



I have no doubt that flashs maximum is faster.



> Ki Shield, maybe. Reflexes? No chance in HFIL. Still, Wally could get enough force to break through a ki shield, or simply start to slow Goku down enough so that he could pummel him at will.



Speculation. We have no idea the strength of ki shields. Characters in DBZ can destroy planets with simple blasts, and ki shields can protect them from them.

Because he's had to lock on to low kis how many times in a mega-high speed battle?



> Flash's ki is to the point where it is completely neglible, like any other human. Cell can't completely block out his own ki, he can only lower it enough so that it can't be sensed. That's probably around the Flash's level. And considering he's much, much slower, Goku will have many more problems locking on. An example of someone completely hiding their power is Trunks when he meets Freiza (And consequently, the last use of a scouter). He registers at the magic "5", which is any human on the planet.



All we really know is that for distance he needs a high ki.
He should be able to not have a problem with a small ki whilst fighting. PLus how small is Flashes ki? 
Ne ways as i stated he didnt always use ki sensing, and fighters like Frieza have done just fine without it as well.




> Do you even know your own Dragonball Feats? Gotenks took 30 minutes (With a nap, yes) to circle the world 5 times. Now let's look at the other side of the equation: In that amount of time, Zoom and Wally could have circled the globe over 126,000 times.
> 
> Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but 5 < 126,000, right?



Have you seen the scan?
And sorry i missed the page where they stated 5 times (if you could point it out to me)
Also note this was Gotenks only as a SSJ pre training.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 18, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _1) From the Dragonball Tonkounbon volume 40, page 139 Gotenks: " I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap." I presume this is where the 24-36 times comes from.
> 
> It is obvious that he did that in a second not even trying.._
> 
> ...



If No one knows then WHY do YOU say that it took him 30 minutes to circle the earth? You can't say noone knows and then pretend that you do. You're chatting garbage. Gotenks flew through SPACE when he circled the earth. Do you think he held his breath for 30 mins? Why woud he even bother to fly around for half an hour?


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 18, 2006)

_Uh, it is anime they are not going to use real life physics like creating Sonic booms, DBZ should have destroyed planet earth simply with ki blasts but they don't ._

Or perhaps the ki blasts thrown doesn't have the potential to?

Not every ki blast is a planet destroyer.

_Hell I could say the same thing about Flash even though he is moving so fast or at lightspeeds he gets his ass taged by slow ass characters. _

Go any faster, there's nothing left to save.

Case in point. An amnesiac Wally is trying to figure out who he was, three muggers come up to him, all with guns.

One mugger shoots, Wally catches the first bullet.

All the mugger shoots, and Wally dodges all of the bullets. Creates a sonic boom that decimates the entire neighbourhood.

What's the point in saving something you destroy in your wake?


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 18, 2006)

> Your chatting Garbage.



Zoom is basically KC Flash. He's speed beyond speed. He actually has the possibility of beating Superman if only because Supes isn't fast enough to actually see him (As shown during his battle with Flash).



> Uh, it is anime they are not going to use real life physics like creating Sonic booms, DBZ should have destroyed planet earth simply with ki blasts but they don't . Hell I could say the same thing about Flash even though he is moving so fast or at lightspeeds he gets his ass taged by slow ass characters.



Uh, how do you know they should have destroyed the Earth with Ki blasts, since Ki isn't technically part of real-world physics?

Again, how can you measure Goku's speed by a real-life number when you refuse to use Real-Life physics (Goku never making a Sonic Boom in combat. I believe they have more than a few when they simply power up and fly off)? He's just really, really fast. That's all you have. You have nothing to even suggest that he is faster than light, or close to that. We have a mountain of evidence that proves that the Flash IS faster than light, and is pretty much the embodiment of pure speed (Or is building up to it: See Kingdom Come).

On Captain Boomerang and that crap: Read Jay Garrick's story when he's trying to save the original Thinker. He dispatches Captain Boomerang before he has a chance to even tell anyone his plan. Wally has been seriously upgraded, and most of his competition nowadays comes from new speedsters and other things along that line. 



> Btw asking for feats on a show based almost entirely around martial arts is the dumbest thing ever



... Why not? Strength and speed feats are what MAKES martial arts shows. Look at Roshi's early feats, which are supposed to show how fast and strong he is. Martial Arts is pretty much completely about feats of strength and power, just watch any sort of Kung Fu movie and you'll see this. To deny it is foolishness.

And to call Dragonball Z a martial arts show is to call the WWE 'the pinnacle of Greco-Roman Wrestling'. Back when martial arts mattered, actual feats of strength and speed (Like the 100m dash and how much tehy could lift) actually mattered. When it went away from that, they stopped doing feats.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 18, 2006)

_If No one knows then WHY do YOU say that it took him 30 minutes to circle the earth?_

First of all, why are you putting words in my mouth?

Second, the fusion lasts for 30 minutes. He has to do both within that timeframe, and reach Buu after that.

Now tell me. How long did the nap exactly last, and how long did the trip last exactly?

_You can't say noone knows and then pretend that you do. You're chatting garbage._

Because you're putting garbage in my mouth.

_Gotenks flew through SPACE when he circled the earth. Do you think he held his breath for 30 mins? Why woud he even bother to fly around for half an hour?_

Flew through space.

First of all, Saiyans can't breathe in space.

Second, we really don't know whether he flew well within Earth's atmosphere, within the upper atmosphere, or blatantly in space. It could be any one of these three.

And final note. Don't put words in my mouth.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 18, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> *sigh*
> 
> Your statement:
> "Since battle speed in ANYTHING is slower"
> I proved you wrong.



God, do you know how dumb it is to compare running speed with one's HANDS?

Punches from reasonably good fighters can go over 100 mph. The fastest runners can only get around 25-30 mph.

PUNCHING is not BATTLE SPEED. Actual battle speed is moving your entire body, not just your fist.



> ON top of that that was a roshi at 137.
> Goku is literally millions of times stronger.



Actually, we can only prove tens of thousands. His power levels after the Frieza Saga are completely unknown. At any rate, the Flash has speed that has proven to be millions of times faster than what Goku has shown us, so that makes it a little less than even.



> Wife and friends are dead (outside of Piccolo).
> He doesnt think of his sons until Vegeta mentions it.
> PLus he was trying to convince Buu not to fire the blast.



...

He could have saved them and kicked Buu's ASS had he moved as fast as the Flash did when he saved an entire city from that blast. The Flash saved 500,000 people and dragged them 35 kms away in less than a second. Goku could only save one person in more than a second. If he needed more than a second to save three measily people, then he is a hell of a lot slower than the Flash.



> I have no doubt that flashs maximum is faster.



Well, that's good.



> Speculation. We have no idea the strength of ki shields. Characters in DBZ can destroy planets with simple blasts, and ki shields can protect them from them.



Wally was able to penetrate and break down the Anti-Monitor's armor, someone who was pretty much indestructible to the entirity of the DC Multiverse. And we've never seen them use a ki shield to defend against a planet destroying blast.



> Because he's had to lock on to low kis how many times in a mega-high speed battle?



Exactly. Why should we expect him to be able to sense a normal human that is skirting the speed of light?



> All we really know is that for distance he needs a high ki.
> He should be able to not have a problem with a small ki whilst fighting. PLus how small is Flashes ki?
> Ne ways as i stated he didnt always use ki sensing, and fighters like Frieza have done just fine without it as well.



I put the Flash down as a regular human: 5. Frieza was able to do well because he was as fast or faster than most of his opponents. When Goku went SSJ, it wasn't like he was sneaking around like he was in the previous battle. He just came right at him.



> Have you seen the scan?
> And sorry i missed the page where they stated 5 times (if you could point it out to me)
> Also note this was Gotenks only as a SSJ pre training.



Only 5 rings around the planet. I mean, that's all we really have to judge on it. There was no number said, simply rings around the planet. At any rate, unless it was close to 126,000 times in the half hour, it's neglible to what the Flash and Zoom were busting out.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 18, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> Zoom is basically KC Flash. He's speed beyond speed. He actually has the possibility of beating Superman if only because Supes isn't fast enough to actually see him (As shown during his battle with Flash).
> 
> *LOL! Zoom the Zoom who barely handled a blind WonderWoman, Zooms punches were not effecting her and you say that he can beat Supes. *
> 
> ...



No Martial Arts in Dragonball is about skill and the feats are always demonstrated in battle not in feats like Marvel/DC. This is a fight not a lifting contest.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 18, 2006)

_Because they were planet busting since Dragonball, if we used real world physics Later in DBZ The Ki blasts should blow the world up everytime their is a Super fight but they don't. _

Perhaps they can't?

Not every ki blast is a planet destroyer.

_Goku dodges Ki Blasts that is faster than light,_

Ki blasts aren't faster than light. There's evidence against it.

_Goku Vanishes when he battles, Goku moved faster than lighting when he was a child in Dragonball, Master Roshi and Krillin actually fought and played 2 games of rock paper scissors in under a second! This is all at the start of Dragonball._

So? Absence of sonic booms.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 18, 2006)

> LOL! Zoom the Zoom who barely handled a blind WonderWoman, Zooms punches were not effecting her and you say that he can beat Supes.



Uh, which Zoom and what comic? Hunter Zolomon, the guy who is beyond the Speedforce? He can snap his fingers and create a sonic boom. He has the potential to power past anyone with the raw speed he has.



> Because they were planet busting since Dragonball, if we used real world physics Later in DBZ The Ki blasts should blow the world up everytime their is a Super fight but they don't.



If we use logic, then all ki blasts aren't planet destroyers. You are simply overrating everything: If it didn't destroy the planet, then it obviously didn't have that much power. A ki blast doesn't need to be able to destory a planet to be deadily.



> Goku dodges Ki Blasts that is faster than light, Goku Vanishes when he battles, Goku moved faster than lighting when he was a child in Dragonball, Master Roshi and Krillin actually fought and played 2 games of rock paper scissors in under a second! This is all at the start of Dragonball.



Lightning that wasn't visibly moving close to what lightning normally moves at. It's not as impressive when you actually measure how fast it really goes. DBZ lightning (Along with most anime lightning) is just slower. *Shrugs* It's not like he was dodging ala Ultimate Quicksilver.

Playing two games of rock-scissors-paper isn't impressive. The Flash easily read BOOKS in that amount of time.



> No Wally's been tagged before by Captain Boomerang Gorilla Grodd and Shadow king. I could go on, Wally has been upgraded only for racing not fighting!



Shadow King? Do you mean Shadow_theif_, because the Shadow King is a Marvel villain.

Yeah, for racing. Because he doesn't need to fight crime at all, right? Boomer and Grodd both use elaborate traps to catch Wally, not pure physical speed. And again, most of Flash's new villains are speedsters anyways. You're simply ignoring facts.



> All of Martial Arts feats (especially in Dragonball) are in battle common sense.



No... we are shown how powerful Roshi is by his speed against Goku's and Krillin's in Dragon Ball. It's used more than once as a judge of power.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> No Martial Arts in Dragonball is about skill and the feats are always demonstrated in battle not in feats like Marvel/DC. This is a fight not a lifting contest.



Wally has defeated the Anti-Monitor, a multiversal threat that has killed trillons more people than any villain in comics (Since he essentially eliminated the infinite universes into just 5). That's the ultimate battle feat. 

Battle Sense is overrated when you aren't even on the same level as the person you are contending with. If you can't even touch or see who you are trying to fight, then how can you even utilize battle sense?


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## Phenomenol (Jul 18, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Because they were planet busting since Dragonball, if we used real world physics Later in DBZ The Ki blasts should blow the world up everytime their is a Super fight but they don't. _
> 
> Perhaps they can't?
> 
> ...



Hell yes, didn't I say the physics do not work in Dragonball  abscence of sonic Booms despite Goku Vanishing when he battles, moving faster than lighting when he was a child in Dragonball, Master Roshi and Krillin actually fought and played 2 games of rock paper scissors in under a second! This is all at the start of Dragonball. Waht is it that you are not getting


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 18, 2006)

_Thanks for your opinions and ignoring facts. Considering the fact they were blowing up planets with the powerlevel of 160._

Power level of 160? Destroyed a planet?

_They should have been blowing up palnets with Ki balls since the Freiza saga not the Majin Buu saga (ie Kid Buu) The physics do not work in Dragonball_

Does every DBZ fan come up with the same conclusion that every ki blast thrown is a planet destroyer?

No.

Physics not working in Dragon Ball Z?

Tell that to gravity.

In addition, the includement word "should" weakens your argument, if not indicating that DBZ should conform to your interpretation.

_Wrong there is no evidence, all you do is nitpick at scenes that go with the 
plot or are not important._

That's a pretty weak defense. . .

_Ki Blasts move faster than light._

No they don't. There's evidence against it.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 18, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> God, do you know how dumb it is to compare running speed with one's HANDS?
> 
> Punches from reasonably good fighters can go over 100 mph. The fastest runners can only get around 25-30 mph.
> 
> PUNCHING is not BATTLE SPEED. Actual battle speed is moving your entire body, not just your fist.



Read the fight again. Else youre wasting my time.



> Actually, we can only prove tens of thousands. His power levels after the Frieza Saga are completely unknown. At any rate, the Flash has speed that has proven to be millions of times faster than what Goku has shown us, so that makes it a little less than even.



Everyone agrees (who knows anything about DBZ) that their pls are in the hundreds of millions (if not billions) by the end of dbz. 



> He could have saved them and kicked Buu's ASS had he moved as fast as the Flash did when he saved an entire city from that blast. The Flash saved 500,000 people and dragged them 35 kms away in less than a second. Goku could only save one person in more than a second. If he needed more than a second to save three measily people, then he is a hell of a lot slower than the Flash.



2 reasons.
1. Roshi's ki blast travelled from the earth to the moon in a matter of seconds. Buus blast (which is prolly faster) went a couple hundred metres. Plus Goku didnt even tink about the ppl on the floor until Vegeta mentioned it.
2. Plot. The point of the ending was that earth was protecting itself (something that Goku stresses). If they took Gohan with them, he could have just destroyed Buu on his own.




> Wally was able to penetrate and break down the Anti-Monitor's armor, someone who was pretty much indestructible to the entirity of the DC Multiverse. And we've never seen them use a ki shield to defend against a planet destroying blast.



True. But we've seen characters swat them away, or not blink an eye at huge (really huge) explosions. 



> Exactly. Why should we expect him to be able to sense a normal human that is skirting the speed of light?



Because he fights at light speed...



> I put the Flash down as a regular human: 5. Frieza was able to do well because he was as fast or faster than most of his opponents. When Goku went SSJ, it wasn't like he was sneaking around like he was in the previous battle. He just came right at him.



Still proves you can fight someone faster than you without ki sensing.



> Only 5 rings around the planet. I mean, that's all we really have to judge on it. There was no number said, simply rings around the planet. At any rate, unless it was close to 126,000 times in the half hour, it's neglible to what the Flash and Zoom were busting out.



See Phenoms address to this point.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 18, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> Uh, which Zoom and what comic? Hunter Zolomon, the guy who is beyond the Speedforce? He can snap his fingers and create a sonic boom. He has the potential to power past anyone with the raw speed he has.
> 
> *I will look up the issue in my comic stack. *
> 
> ...



Goku is more than enough of an opponent for the Flash. Forseeing movements is forseeing movements I can name some characters Goku fought who were not on the same level as him but he had no choice to win by using his precog abilities.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 18, 2006)

> =Comic Book Guy No they don't. There's evidence against it.



Show me the evidence? against the many times that prooved that Ki blasts moves faster than light.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 18, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Thanks for your opinions and ignoring facts. Considering the fact they were blowing up planets with the powerlevel of 160._
> 
> Power level of 160? Destroyed a planet?



Dont remember this. I remember 137 destroying the moon.



> _They should have been blowing up palnets with Ki balls since the Freiza saga not the Majin Buu saga (ie Kid Buu) The physics do not work in Dragonball_
> 
> Does every DBZ fan come up with the same conclusion that every ki blast thrown is a planet destroyer?
> 
> ...



Havent i said this before? Not everything occurs in DBZ as it would in real life. 
Ex. Roshi destroys the moon, and there are no negative side-affects on the earth.
Why? Caus that would mess with the plot, and telling of the story.
Meaning the reason there are no sonic booms is caus than bulma, and everyone else would be dead, and the story would be fucked up. 
Thats the same reason not every blast destroys the earth. The fights would be stupid. How great would a fight be if someone dramatically hits a ki blast away with the back of his hand, only to die when the earth is destroyed. The result would end the manga right there. Everyone would be dead.
Story comes first in DBZ.


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## warrior1000 (Jul 18, 2006)

a sonic boom occurs when one is going the speed of 1200 km, some where in that ball park. Now you guys are saying Goku is slower than that speed when an  average military jet can achieve it.

Sonic boom is just a shock wave and every time Goku pwers up there is a shockwave.


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## Zouri (Jul 18, 2006)

I don't know why this is so close. Flash should have raped Goku in the standings, just like he would in a fight. This shouldn't be a contest in any sense of the word.

Goku isn't anywhere near as fast as the Flash. His regular speed isn't anywhere near light speed, and techniques don't count as natural speed. In either case, Shunkan Idō isn't even light speed. Goku has to put his fingers to his forehead to concentrate, or spend extra time in order to perform it correctly. Plus, he has to home in on an energy signature. With all that time, Flash has the ability to go home, take a power nap, finish his taxes and come back and kill Goku. The only person who can teleport this fast without tracing energy signatures is Kibito with the 'Kai Kai' technique.

Also, Wikipedia lists the speed at the speed of thought. Now Wikipedia isn't always correct, but you got to admit that it's pretty damn accurate.



Anyway, The Flash is much faster. The Flash makes his costume out of speed energy, and you know that alone means something. Using the Speed Force, The Flash can just take Goku's speed, leaving him with nothing. Sure he has to touch him, but that's not much of a problem when Goku's fastest technique has a long start up time. Also, he can vibrate to pass through solid matter. Which means that Goku is going to have quite a problem hitting the guy. Not only that, but he can cause explosions when he vibrates through something if he wanted. He is also the speed of light, able to time travel and if pushed can even transcend that. How the hell are you supposed to fight that? If Flash wanted he could just go back and kill Goku as a boy. Not much of a problem then now is it.

Also, I hate it when people use a character at a lower point to make a point. Goku was also hit by bullets at a young age. Does that make his speed any less great? No. Also, if someone could read your mind and set up traps to occupy their time, don't you think it would become easier even if just a little to hit someone. And remember that this isn't an ordinary gorilla either.

The Flash has too much speed to really be beaten by someone like Goku. One good punch coming from top speed should (painfully) take Goku's head off. Plus, everyone who fights Flash usually is a speedster as a prequisite. Not true for Goku.

Edit:
Warrior1000: "Sonic boom is just a shock wave and every time Goku pwers up there is a shockwave."

Wha? That's comparing 2 completely different things. Your comparing a power shockwave to a Sonic boom. Basically, Goku is creating a shockwake by using his energy to create a crater under him. Anything in the air isn't a sonic boom, because grass around him is barely pushed to the ground and most objects don't move or get blown away. Plus, he isn't moving when he powers up.


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## konflikti (Jul 18, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Everyone agrees (who knows anything about DBZ) that their pls are in the hundreds of millions (if not billions) by the end of dbz.



This would matter if powerlevels were directly relational to speed, strenght or ki, which they haven't been proved to be.


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## Perfect Moron (Jul 18, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> If No one knows then WHY do YOU say that it took him 30 minutes to circle the earth? You can't say noone knows and then pretend that you do. You're chatting garbage. Gotenks flew through SPACE when he circled the earth. Do you think he held his breath for 30 mins? Why woud he even bother to fly around for half an hour?



I can hold my breath for 2 mins and I'm no saiyajin. Anything beyond 10 seconds, and a few dozens rounds around the earth is hardly lightspeed. And you are the only one that pretended to know:



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> 1) From the Dragonball Tonkounbon volume 40, page 139 Gotenks: " I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap." I presume this is where the 24-36 times comes from.
> 
> *It is obvious that he did that in a second not even trying..*



Yeah, real obvious...


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## kombak (Jul 18, 2006)

In fact , there is no clues in DBZ about their speed
Some (me for exemple) are sure theyre much faster than speed of light , some dont think so.... we dont know


Same for pure strengh...there is no clue at all in all dbz how strong they are....
I think goku can lift a whole planet with a single finger (let me imagine )
Anyway , i just say this to destroy someones argment on Superman topic saying that goku can lift hundreds of kg only....coz goku did when he was dead , after cell games , in front of 2 Kaios...
but , and for the 1st time  I will say this...THIS IS FILLER
It doesnt exist in the manga , so


GOku :
-No clues about SPeed or pure strengh.
+ Hes an incredible fighter , pure fighting skill 
+ Hes able to fight @ 100% during a full speed...

So if flash wanna beat goku , RIGHT NOW he need :

-TO be as good @ pure fighting skill as goku
- TO be able to fight @ 100% capacity during high speed


In fact , we know basic goku strengh > flash strengh , EVEN IF WE DONT know the exact goku strengh...


SO? stop speculating about whos faster  : we dont know DBZ speed
Stop about whos stronger (superman vs goku thread) : We dont know DBZ strengh


Now the fight will be , between the 2 better martial artist , and we know goku > flash


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## konflikti (Jul 18, 2006)

Why should Flash be downgraded because Goku's speed is hard to gauge? Even if you were to believe that Goku fights in lightspeed(which at least I don't) he would still be slower than Flash.

Yes, Flash has lost to some villains that aren't up to his current level. Goku has lost to Radditz, and does anyone care? No, because we're arguing the characters at their best, not at their weakest.


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## kombak (Jul 18, 2006)

If we dont even have any average speed for goku , u cant say flash is faster 
I do think , imho hes faster because i remember that when fighting full speed , theyre invisible , but for the show , its a lot slowed down...
but thats not the point ,  and thats why any DBZ charac vs XXXX will be always hard to judge....because we dont even know how strong and fast they are....or not....
So we can only make them win with obvious match up (Goku Vs naruto , Goku vs Wolwerine) , but not with the most powerful guys against them


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## Delta Shell (Jul 18, 2006)

The 40 tons scene is in the manga. It is not filler. However the only difference is that it only looks like it suddenly weighs down his arms and legs..it isn't _directly_ shown to drag his whole body down..

Not _directly_ but essentially the scene is identical..


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Jul 18, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> In fact , there is no clues in DBZ about their speed
> Some (me for exemple) are sure theyre much faster than speed of light , some dont think so.... we dont know
> 
> 
> ...



I see you have not read Dragonball.

After having trained for Kame Sennin Goku can push around a rock which looks like it would atleast weight around three or four tons as if it was nothing. This was when he was still only twelve years old and BEFORE he trained in the tower and before he beat Tao Bai Bai.


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## konflikti (Jul 18, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> If we dont even have any average speed for goku , u cant say flash is faster
> I do think , imho hes faster because i remember that when fighting full speed , theyre invisible , but for the show , its a lot slowed down...
> but thats not the point ,  and thats why any DBZ charac vs XXXX will be always hard to judge....because we dont even know how strong and fast they are....or not....
> So we can only make them win with obvious match up (Goku Vs naruto , Goku vs Wolwerine) , but not with the most powerful guys against them



It's kinda funny that you say that I can't say that Flash is faster, and then go and state that Goku is faster.

Flash is invisible all the time. That doesn't prove a thing.


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## Gunners (Jul 18, 2006)

> Why should Flash be downgraded because Goku's speed is hard to gauge? Even if you were to believe that Goku fights in lightspeed(which at least I don't) he would still be slower than Flash.
> 
> Yes, Flash has lost to some villains that aren't up to his current level. Goku has lost to Radditz, and does anyone care? No, because we're arguing the characters at their best, not at their weakest.



Diffrence is Goku was weak at the time, Flash when he looses still has his skill in tact, its like saying flash is weak because he got beat up by some cops when he didn't have speed at the time.

Back on issue, if Goku in close combat moved as fast as light i don't know why you are saying the flash is still faster as he would have speed good enough to hold his own in that department equipted with Strength the flash doesn't have.

I've said time and time again, the reason some blasts don't destroy the earth is due to concentration, if you look at it this way, Blast which hit cell would have been weaker than Vegitas attack Sajjin time, yet characters couldn't harm him if they could throw stronger attacks they would so it leads to concentration and the spread of an attack.


----------



## Rangamaru (Jul 18, 2006)

also, you guys should consider that the flash has several different authors, and he is an older character. Goku, for the most part, had one author. And even when he had a second author, nothing was retconned. Instead he got stronger. Flash at his strongest>goku period. The only way goku could win is by destroying the earth, in which he would lose also.


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## kombak (Jul 18, 2006)

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:
			
		

> I see you have not read Dragonball.
> 
> After having trained for Kame Sennin Goku can push around a rock which looks like it would atleast weight around three or four tons as if it was nothing. This was when he was still only twelve years old and BEFORE he trained in the tower and before he beat Tao Bai Bai.



whaou , were talking about a full powered goku 
Kame senin is around 139 , SSJ 1 is around 150 000 000 .....there is no comparaison


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## Delta Shell (Jul 18, 2006)

You shouldn't analyse things too much.

Goku is weighed down by 40 tons but if we look back Tao Pie Pie can hurl stone pillars over a great distance (post Cell Goku should be a LOT stronger).

It doens't warrant an analysys, it's a simple case of the author not being a sad bastard like us and bothering to calculate stuff, he just thought, hmm 10 tons on each arm, that sounds heavy (well probably).

We accept that base Goku is weighed down (in the air mind you) by 10 tons on each arm because that is exactly what happened, whether it makes snese in terms of calculations and whatnot is another thing really.

Just like the Flash going near lightspeed but the calcs not matching up.


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## Zeig (Jul 18, 2006)

There is hardly a way to pass judgement on this type of fight...hard to say.


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## konflikti (Jul 18, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Diffrence is Goku was weak at the time, Flash when he looses still has his skill in tact, its like saying flash is weak because he got beat up by some cops when he didn't have speed at the time.



Is it so hard to understand that we ain't arguing about lowest showings, we're arguing about highest? Trying to belittle character by bringing places where he has performed worse than one would suppose is no way to place him under some other character.



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Back on issue, if Goku in close combat moved as fast as light i don't know why you are saying the flash is still faster as he would have speed good enough to hold his own in that department equipted with Strength the flash doesn't have.



Why I'm saying that he would be faster than Goku if Goku was lightspeed? Because Flash is faster than lightspeed.


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Jul 18, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> whaou , were talking about a full powered goku
> Kame senin is around 139 , SSJ 1 is around 150 000 000 .....there is no comparaison



I know that. What i said was that when he's twelve he could push around at minimum a few tons of rock. This means that when he's full powered, he's most likely atleast a few hundred times stronger.


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## Gunners (Jul 18, 2006)

> Is it so hard to understand that we ain't arguing about lowest showings, we're arguing about highest? Trying to belittle character by bringing places where he has performed worse than one would suppose is no way to place him under some other character.



Huh didn't you say he lost to Raditz, i brought up deathstroke as he had his actual power at the time and he still lost, granted he held back, but Goku is stronger than death stroke, if you scale it up it would work out balanced anyway.




> Why I'm saying that he would be faster than Goku if Goku was lightspeed? Because Flash is faster than lightspeed.



If Goku moved at light speed, Flash would not be a great deal faster that it would matter all that much is what i am trying to say, anyway i still don't see him moving much higher than Lightspeed unless he steals people's speed in which case he needs contact, if Goku moves lighspeed during close combat there is a possibility he would get in the air before flash could touch him.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 18, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> It's kinda funny that you say that I can't say that Flash is faster, and then go and state that Goku is faster.
> 
> Flash is invisible all the time. That doesn't prove a thing.



Konflikti, Flash is not invisible all the time it takes time to even become invisible for the Flash. Goku has faster fighting speed than the Flash, Flash has better traveling speed.


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## konflikti (Jul 18, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Huh didn't you say he lost to Raditz, i brought up deathstroke as he had his actual power at the time and he still lost, granted he held back, but Goku is stronger than death stroke, if you scale it up it would work out balanced anyway.



I brought that out as a comparison, so you would notice that it doesn't make any sense to bring up the low showings. I guess you didn't get it.



			
				phenomenol said:
			
		

> Konflikti, Flash is not invisible all the time it takes time to even become invisible for the Flash. Goku has faster fighting speed than the Flash, Flash has better traveling speed.



Phenom, if your only argument is that Gokus fighting speed is higher than his moving speed, and that's why it is higher than Flash's, then get the hell out. Or, if you really wanna prove something, point me to comic where it says that Flash cannot fight as fast or faster than he can travel.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 18, 2006)

Please. A Jay Garrick clone can throw a measured 25,000 punches in just a few seconds in Outsiders #36. And that's one of, if not the, slowest of the Flashes, who tops at the speed of sound after Infinite Crisis, due to his metahuman gene.

In addition, there was a scan back in the Vegito vs. Vegito thread where Wonder Woman was amazed of how many times Flash can punch; wondered at the possibility of millions of punches and how long can he even keep punching for in a day.

And to add on, when Flash stole speed from a large area, he didn't touch everything. He just stood there and reminded himself that this is like stealing speed from a bullet -- a lot more bullets (not direct quote -- loose wording). In reverse, he doesn't need to augment people's speed by contact. He augmented the heroes speed back when he faced the Anti-Monitor a second time.

Ki blasts not being faster than light -- some examples.

In the Saiyan Saga, if the KameHame Ha that Vegeta rode on was at lightspeed, then he would have cleared the atmosphere in no time. But he was still in the atmosphere. So the KameHame Ha is not lightspeed.

In the Frieza Saga, Burter and Jeice fired their ki blasts at him, and Goku moved out of the way. If the ki blasts moved at lightspeed, then similarly, Goku must dodge at lightspeed as well to dodge. However, if that was so, then there must be sonic booms in his wake, which would destroy the terrain he would be on. Instead, there were only footsteps in his wake. DBZ 53.

Also note, when Jeice and Burter fly past Goku with their coloured trails, they didn't even break the sound barrier.

In the Cell Saga, when Super Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Kid Gohan fired their respective KameHame Ha's, they should meet each other at lightspeed. However, the Z warriors had plenty enough time to react and run, which they did. Krillin even manages to say a few words, as well as Piccolo. Even Vegeta struggled a bit to get up and fly away. So, they don't go at lightspeed. DBZ 176 -- Save the World

In the Buu saga, Super Buu 3 used Gotenks' Ghost attack, who all fired a KameHame Ha. They followed Super Vegito for a short time. Now, if they were moving at lightspeed, so must Super Vegito. Again, there's an absence of sonic booms, so no, Super Vegito and the KameHame Ha's he's eluding don't go at lightspeed. DBZ 256 -- Vegito Downsized.

Buu Saga. Kid Buu fires his first ki blast. If it was going at lightspeed, Vegeta must have reacted similarly. However, if that was so, his movement should have broken the sound barrier, and therefore blow Goku away from the vicinity. However, this is not so. DBZ 261 or 262 -- whichever was the one when he fired it.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 18, 2006)

To be fair, I just think Toriyama never thought out the sonic boom thing, he just wanted to write a story. This is a guy that has horrendous physical feats from weaker characters and then straps a 40 ton limit on Goku later on.

Again, I think there's too much over analysis going on. I'm sure there are times in comic books where people move faster than sound but the author forgot or simply didn't care about the sonic boom.


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## Gunners (Jul 18, 2006)

> I brought that out as a comparison, so you would notice that it doesn't make any sense to bring up the low showings. I guess you didn't get it.



No what i brought up still stands, the point is Goku of present never lost to Raditz, when Flash lost to deathstroke he had all his powers.




> Phenom, if your only argument is that Gokus fighting speed is higher than his moving speed, and that's why it is higher than Flash's, then get the hell out. Or, if you really wanna prove something, point me to comic where it says that Flash cannot fight as fast or faster than he can travel.



Don't tell people to ''get the hell out'' it is a battledome people are free to speculate what they please. From what i saw in the flash he can not throw of his huge attacks without taking a run up to gain momentum, so there is something that would suggest his travel speed is greater than his combat speed.


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## konflikti (Jul 18, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> No what i brought up still stands, the point is Goku of present never lost to Raditz, when Flash lost to deathstroke he had all his powers.



I'm just going to ignore every point considering that from now on.



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Don't tell people to ''get the hell out'' it is a battledome people are free to speculate what they please. From what i saw in the flash he can not throw of his huge attacks without taking a run up to gain momentum, so there is something that would suggest his travel speed is greater than his combat speed.



Now, even if that were the situation, how does that prove that Goku is faster in combat speed? I don't mind anyone speculating stuff, but throwing totally baseless assumptions as facts really gets on my nerve.


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## shadow978 (Jul 18, 2006)

*The flash...*



			
				konflikti said:
			
		

> I'm just going to ignore every point considering that from now on.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, even if that were the situation, how does that prove that Goku is faster in combat speed? I don't mind anyone speculating stuff, but throwing totally baseless assumptions as facts really gets on my nerve.




The flash is so fast Goku could'nt even see him! (no offense to goku I love dbz!!!)But yeah the flash would win most definitely.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 18, 2006)

Huh. . . nice Sharingan pictures. . .


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## warrior1000 (Jul 18, 2006)

People are saying Goku wont even hav time to think before Flash kills him.

Now i ask, wont the Flash also have to think, and i know he is fast but i dont think his thinking speed is faster than a normal humans. So him and Goku will be equal on that. Another point about stamina, can the flash keep up his speed and outlast Goku in stamina and energy?

What will the Flash do to end Goku?
Swords cant work, because Trunks used his sword against Goku and Goku bloacked it with one finger. WHat does the Flash have on Goku other than taking away speed and running very fast. HE does not have super strenght, if he gets hit by a bullet, i know he can dodge them but if he gets hit, it will go throug his skin just like a normal person.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 18, 2006)

> What will the Flash do to end Goku?
> Swords cant work, because Trunks used his sword against Goku and Goku bloacked it with one finger. WHat does the Flash have on Goku other than taking away speed and running very fast. HE does not have super strenght, if he gets hit by a bullet, i know he can dodge them but if he gets hit, it will go throug his skin just like a normal person.



The Flash can vibrate his finger through Goku's brain and make his head explode...


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## Kisame. (Jul 18, 2006)

> Now i ask, wont the Flash also have to think, and i know he is fast but i dont think his thinking speed is faster than a normal humans.



Yes yes his thinking speed is faster...how can you move faster than thought if your thoughts arent faster as well?


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 18, 2006)

_Now i ask, wont the Flash also have to think, and i know he is fast but i dont think his thinking speed is faster than a normal humans. So him and Goku will be equal on that._

Flash's brain does work at superspeed, actually. So, now, they're not equal in that.

_Another point about stamina, can the flash keep up his speed and outlast Goku in stamina and energy?_

A better question is, who outlasts who?

_What will the Flash do to end Goku?
Swords cant work, because Trunks used his sword against Goku and Goku bloacked it with one finger. WHat does the Flash have on Goku other than taking away speed and running very fast. HE does not have super strenght, if he gets hit by a bullet, i know he can dodge them but if he gets hit, it will go throug his skin just like a normal person._

-stealing speed/kinetic energy
-destructive vibrational abilities (via phasing though)
-intangibility
-creation of wind vortexes via moving limbs or entire body at superspeed


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## Delta Shell (Jul 18, 2006)

When the Flash feels bullets on his skin he instantly vibrates so they pass through him.


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## Gunners (Jul 18, 2006)

> When the Flash feels bullets on his skin he instantly vibrates so they pass through him.



So how did the sword go through him?


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 18, 2006)

> Now i ask, wont the Flash also have to think, and i know he is fast but i dont think his thinking speed is faster than a normal humans.



It was even in the cartoon. I watched it last night when he's fighting Sinestro.

Sinestro: My beams are just as fast as you are! Lightspeed!
Flash: Yeah, but you don't think that fast!


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## Gunners (Jul 18, 2006)

Yeh Flash can think pretty fast, i think in general he speeds up the chemicals in his brain, which brings another point, if Goku has precognition like abilities and he aims his dodge, Flash could in theory see where he is moving in slow motion and still hit him, something to think about.

Anyway, i could see the Flash winning this match but i could also see Goku winning this if he is able to get in the air, if flash  keeps him on the ground he would win.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 18, 2006)

That is, if the DBZ warriors possess precognition at all.

_So how did the sword go through him?_

Oh, trust me. When Identity Crisis #3 came out, us comic fans were pretty pissed on how Brad Meltzer wrote _Jobstroke_ in how he handled the JLA (or rather, who was there at the time). I mean, come on? What the hell was Kyle doing all this time? Cheerleading, with a Green Lantern ring? Flash gets stabbed, when he usually goes intangible against similar threats.

Still, Deathstroke is a metahuman, thus possessing enhanced reflexes, which are apparently sharp and precise enough to even 'tag' the Flash. To add on, he's one of the few people who's above Batman combat-wise, and good enough to go toe-to-toe with Cassandra for awhile.

Also note, Brad Meltzer is primarily an author, as opposed to a comic book writer.


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## Gunners (Jul 18, 2006)

^^^ Yeh deathstrokes abilities are above human standards but i beleive Goku has reflexes above Deathstrokes, so in theory he could tag the flash, that is the thing with DC there are many diffrent writters so his skills can vary.

In anycase, at time Flash could beat Goku, though if Goku manages to get in air where flash doesn't have as much control i can see him winning this fight.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 18, 2006)

_^^^ Yeh deathstrokes abilities are above human standards but i beleive Goku has reflexes above Deathstrokes, so in theory he could tag the flash, that is the thing with DC there are many diffrent writters so his skills can vary._

Though, would he be able to tag Flash at even faster speeds?

_In anycase, at time Flash could beat Goku, though if Goku manages to get in air where flash doesn't have as much control i can see him winning this fight._

Yeah, I mentioned Goku's flight advantage. The only counter I can figure out for Wally is that he steals speed within the area. But even so, it's not a sure win. Goku could fly away, Goku may get caught in it but still remains afloat due to ki, maybe he falls to the earth. I don't really know for sure.

JnR said that since neurons, synapses, and biological processes possess kinetic energy, they would be affected as well, supporting the third option. Although it sounds logical to me, I don't believe it fully (unless other parties can verify this).


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## aznguy28 (Jul 18, 2006)

goku's super sayain 4 form would own flash 0_o and no i really don't think flash is as fast as the speed of light, but he is fast enough to break the barriers of time and space.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 18, 2006)

_goku's super sayain 4 form would own flash 0_o_

Mmm.

_and no i really don't think flash is as fast as the speed of light, but he is fast enough to break the barriers of time and space._

Actually, Wally is able to achieve lightspeed and even exceed it.

And yes, he's fast enough to break the time and space barrier. He sometimes outruns his future self, actually. Even outran the Black Flash (the Flash's/Speed Force version/aspect of Death of the Endless).


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 18, 2006)

aznguy28 said:
			
		

> goku's super sayain 4 form would own flash 0_o and no i really don't think flash is as fast as the speed of light, but he is fast enough to break the barriers of time and space.



How can you say that the Flash is not the speed of light when it is stated in the books that he is the speed of light.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 18, 2006)

Yeah, even i'll admit that Jobberstroke scene was badly written. Made Deathstroke look badass though.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 18, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Ki blasts not being faster than light -- some examples.
> 
> In the Saiyan Saga, if the KameHame Ha that Vegeta rode on was at lightspeed, then he would have cleared the atmosphere in no time. But he was still in the atmosphere. So the KameHame Ha is not lightspeed.



This scene is very vague. Vegeta might have gotten off the blast, and was chilling above the clouds while Goku talked to Yajirobe. It seems that the two scenes were happening at the same time.



> In the Frieza Saga, Burter and Jeice fired their ki blasts at him, and Goku moved out of the way. If the ki blasts moved at lightspeed, then similarly, Goku must dodge at lightspeed as well to dodge. However, if that was so, then there must be sonic booms in his wake, which would destroy the terrain he would be on. Instead, there were only footsteps in his wake. DBZ 53.
> 
> Also note, when Jeice and Burter fly past Goku with their coloured trails, they didn't even break the sound barrier.



See bottom.



> In the Cell Saga, when Super Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Kid Gohan fired their respective KameHame Ha's, they should meet each other at lightspeed. However, the Z warriors had plenty enough time to react and run, which they did. Krillin even manages to say a few words, as well as Piccolo. Even Vegeta struggled a bit to get up and fly away. So, they don't go at lightspeed. DBZ 176 -- Save the World



Only Piccolo said anything. No one had time to react, as they were swept away by the explosion. NE ways Picollo is ftl... wait let me guess hes not caus there were no sonic booms or anything.



> In the Buu saga, Super Buu 3 used Gotenks' Ghost attack, who all fired a KameHame Ha. They followed Super Vegito for a short time. Now, if they were moving at lightspeed, so must Super Vegito. Again, there's an absence of sonic booms, so no, Super Vegito and the KameHame Ha's he's eluding don't go at lightspeed. DBZ 256 -- Vegito Downsized.



Kay this didnt happen (filler). Vegito dodged the Kame-kazi ghosts than blew them up... no kamehameha was used.



> Buu Saga. Kid Buu fires his first ki blast. If it was going at lightspeed, Vegeta must have reacted similarly. However, if that was so, his movement should have broken the sound barrier, and therefore blow Goku away from the vicinity. However, this is not so. DBZ 261 or 262 -- whichever was the one when he fired it.



Stop with the sound barrier/ sonic boom crap. AT didnt include it in the manga, because it would ruin the story. It does not mean they arent moving ftl.


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 18, 2006)

As for the Vegeta one, it could be argued that he was resisting.


----------



## warrior1000 (Jul 18, 2006)

X2q said:
			
		

> Yes yes his thinking speed is faster...how can you move faster than thought if your thoughts arent faster as well?



human thought is only like 11 mph, so when one is going 60mph in a car do you think they also are thinking that fast.

Flash can go faster than thought but that does not make his thinking any more significant.


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 18, 2006)

I think there are instances where he has run millions of simulations in his head in a second, i'm sure I have the comic somewhere (might have been OWAW can't be 100%).

Yeah, Flash thinks faster than humans too.


----------



## warrior1000 (Jul 18, 2006)

I can agree with him thinking faster than humans, but Goku also is above normal human abilities, so Goku also can think very fast if Flash can.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 19, 2006)

This thread is all over the place, especially because it's so big. I think the thread would benefit from organizations. So,while you're arguiing, why not have like a division of arguments and have them titled? For instances, the issues raised within this fight could be said to breakdown into 10 diffrent categories. Maybe I'm leavign something out... 

The Breakdown

Speed
Durability
Stamina 
Raw Power
Battle Tactics 
Excess Defensive Abilties
Excess Offensive Abilties
Excess Additional Abilties
Diffrential Universal Comparisent (Obscure Feats, Obscure Information, Character Feats and Feats of Others)
Pointless Comments

So like, how hard would it be to put one of these in your post, and then discuss back and forth with others, since they would clearly see, choose, and respond on the issue of their liking, or "most importance for them".

Sigh, I know this idea will fall flat, but, it would make the discussion real organized and easy to read. Which I guess no one wants. Because no one wants to make leeway.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Please. A Jay Garrick clone can throw a measured 25,000 punches in just a few seconds in Outsiders #36. And that's one of, if not the, slowest of the Flashes, who tops at the speed of sound after Infinite Crisis, due to his metahuman gene.
> 
> *And?, You act like those are going to even phase Goku, let alone touch Goku.*
> 
> ...



This is anime/manga not everything is going to be relative to real life, so your point is what? So the psychics don't quite work .The damn planet should get knocked off its axis whereever the Hulk throws down. Captain Boomerang laid Flash out with one blow and their was no Sonic Boom from his Boomerang. or what about when Zoom laid Flash out cold with the supposed lightspeed punches Yet Flash didn't go flying through the floor or smah any buildings.  I'm quite sure Toriyama was thinking about Sonic Booms when he made Goku move *FASTER* than lightning when he was a child in Dragonball. It's called common sense.

Your points are irrelevant and nitpicking You have prooven nothing. For every "speed feat" of the Flash I can post Flash getting walloped by some slow ass like Kadabra or Gorilla Grodd.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 19, 2006)

_And?, You act like those are going to even phase Goku, let alone touch Goku._

You're the one who said Flash has faster travelling speed than Goku, while Goku has better fighting speed i.e. reflexes, punching, kicking, basic combat.

Flash can move his limbs at super-speed. And the one I mentioned is a clone of Jay Garrick, the *slowest* Flash, who tops at the speed of sound.

_So? Wonder Woman also Smashed Zoom! something the Flash could not do on a good day._

Did you even read how the fight went down? Can you even tell me the issues?

_Wonder Woman making a comment means nothing._

Yes it does; it tells how many times Flash can throw punches, and wondering as to how long he can keep it up even to a day.

_And, you act like Goku is going to sit their and let Flash steel his speed. That takes alot of concentration and time to do and this._

I expect Goku to be up in the air already, but he doesn't know what Flash is fully capable of.

_This is anime/manga not everything is going to be relative to real life, so your point is what? So the psychics don't quite work_

Psychics?

Physics.

_.The damn planet should get knocked off its axis whereever the Hulk throws down._

I can never understand what you're trying to say here.

_Captain Boomerang laid Flash out with one blow and their was no Sonic Boom from his Boomerang._

Which one? Senior or junior?

_or what about when Zoom laid Flash out cold with the supposed lightspeed punches Yet Flash didn't go flying through the floor or smah any buildings._

Are you even sure that was exactly lightspeed punches Zoom was throwing?

Against Wonder Woman, Zoom punched her all over the globe.

_I'm quite sure Toriyama was thinking about Sonic Booms when he made Goku move FASTER than lightning when he was a child in Dragonball. It's called common sense._

By your 'precog' argument, Goku saw it coming, and simply moved out of the way where the lightning would strike.

_Your points are irrelevant and nitpicking You have prooven nothing._

Proved the lack of sonic booms.

_For every "speed feat" of the Flash I can post Flash getting walloped by some slow ass like Kadabra or Gorilla Grodd._

Why don't we do a bit better?

You post all the Flash issues those fights come from, and I'll read them myself to confirm. I might as well put all those Flash +250 comics to use sooner or later.

_This scene is very vague. Vegeta might have gotten off the blast, and was chilling above the clouds while Goku talked to Yajirobe. It seems that the two scenes were happening at the same time._

If those two scenes were happening at the same time, then there's no way that KameHame Ha is lightspeed. Vegeta's not blown out of the atmosphere, and Yajirobe managed to hold a conversation with Goku.

_Only Piccolo said anything. No one had time to react, as they were swept away by the explosion. NE ways Picollo is ftl... wait let me guess hes not caus there were no sonic booms or anything._

Now you're going to tell me he speaks at FTL speed.

By the anime adaption, Krillin does say a few words, before retreating with Tien and a dead Future Trunks.

Piccolo says a word, then leaves.

Vegeta struggles to his feet, then leaves. I guess he struggled to his feet at lightspeed, hmm?

_Stop with the sound barrier/ sonic boom crap. AT didnt include it in the manga, because it would ruin the story._

Elaborate.

_It does not mean they arent moving ftl._

The speed of light is far above the speed of sound. When moving at lightspeed, the sound barrier is broken.

_I can agree with him thinking faster than humans, but Goku also is above normal human abilities, so Goku also can think very fast if Flash can._

No, Flash still thinks faster. He can outthink supercomputers, as seen with Solaris.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> You're the one who said Flash has faster travelling speed than Goku, while Goku has better fighting speed i.e. reflexes, punching, kicking, basic combat.
> 
> Flash can move his limbs at super-speed. And the one I mentioned is a clone of Jay Garrick, the *slowest* Flash, who tops at the speed of sound.
> 
> ...



No, I already posted some scans earlier in this thread, I will post when I feel like it, then you can read up on the issue not before.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _.The damn planet should get knocked off its axis whereever the Hulk throws down._
> 
> I can never understand what you're trying to say here.



Hes saying that in comic,s as in anime, the laws of physics, and logic, are left out in certain circumstances as it would complicate the story and move it in the wrong direction.



> _I'm quite sure Toriyama was thinking about Sonic Booms when he made Goku move FASTER than lightning when he was a child in Dragonball. It's called common sense._
> 
> By your 'precog' argument, Goku saw it coming, and simply moved out of the way where the lightning would strike.



Freize than? He cant sense ki, but hes faster than Goku was vs Ginyu. And goku was ftl.



> _Your points are irrelevant and nitpicking You have prooven nothing._
> 
> Proved the lack of sonic booms.



*sigh*



> _This scene is very vague. Vegeta might have gotten off the blast, and was chilling above the clouds while Goku talked to Yajirobe. It seems that the two scenes were happening at the same time._
> 
> If those two scenes were happening at the same time, then there's no way that KameHame Ha is lightspeed. Vegeta's not blown out of the atmosphere, and Yajirobe managed to hold a conversation with Goku.



If you see the scans, Vegeta spends over a page above the clouds contemplating what to do next.



> _Only Piccolo said anything. No one had time to react, as they were swept away by the explosion. NE ways Picollo is ftl... wait let me guess hes not caus there were no sonic booms or anything._
> 
> Now you're going to tell me he speaks at FTL speed.



Dramatic purposes of the story.
or i can be a dick and say
Bulma can talk ftl (as she does in the Buu saga- RoSaT paradox), so why cant piccolo?



> By the anime adaption, Krillin does say a few words, before retreating with Tien and a dead Future Trunks.
> 
> Piccolo says a word, then leaves.
> 
> Vegeta struggles to his feet, then leaves. I guess he struggled to his feet at lightspeed, hmm?



No he struggled to his feet in a filler scene. Savy?



> _Stop with the sound barrier/ sonic boom crap. AT didnt include it in the manga, because it would ruin the story._
> 
> Elaborate.



Aite. Think about it. If AT included a sonic boom everytime someone went super fast than what would happen?
Ex.
-Bulma and EVERYONE else in the crowd at Goku first tourni would be dead (yea thatd be great for the story)
-ditto second tourni
- Gohan and Krillin (and maybe even Vegeta) would be killed on Namek vs Ginyu Force. This would kinda affect the story caus theyre the main characters of the arc.
- Cell games- Mr Satan would die, totally fucking up the rest of the series, as he needed to take credit for Cells defeat.



> _It does not mean they arent moving ftl._
> 
> The speed of light is far above the speed of sound. When moving at lightspeed, the sound barrier is broken.



But real world rules have to apply to the characters. ATs rules apply.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 19, 2006)

There's simply no excuse for a character to not cause a sonic boom if he... oh, I dunno... goes faster than the speed of sound!


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 19, 2006)

_And? The Flash only demonmstrates Super speed while running. If you noticed he is always running and fighting he can not lock up and exchange blows in one spot.The Flas can not hurt Goku with punches._

Super-speed while running, eh?

I can cite at least 2 examples from the top of my head.

Zoom vs. Flash, issue #200. Flash moves his arms at super-speed, creating a mini wind vortex. He was stationary in position.

And the Jay Garrick clone I was talking about? He was sitting Grace Choi's shoulders, not running. Then he punched her 25,000 times. Read Outsiders #36.

_Yes, This was when Zoom punched Wonder Woman and she commented that it was as hard as Superman's punch, Zoom then started attacking Amazons and then Wonder Woman smacked him around._

Uh huh. Smacked him around.

You know, she only punched him once, then brought him down with her lasso.

And you didn't even tell me the issue numbers.

_Wow, He is not fighting an average guy like he usually does._

Mmm.

_Then Zoom got his ass beat by Wonder Woman._

After getting caught in her Lasso of Truth.

_Wrong, I am not talking about that. Goku was faster than lightning after Mr. Popo's training, After Mr. Popo demonstrated how to move faster than lightning._

Thanks to his 'precog' as you always put it. So, not really speed alone.

_Wow, I also prooved the lack of sonic Booms in Flash's fights._

Necessary restraint. Unless the situation doesn't need it -- strong enough rogue, no innocents that can be injured or killed in vicinity, ignore property damage, etc.

_No, I already posted some scans earlier in this thread,_

Then kindly direct me to the pages.

_I will post when I feel like it,_

Or perhaps, you can't at the moment?

_then you can read up on the issue not before._

Right. From #1 to #230, plus the Secret Origins and Specials, all in one day?

Please. Even I have a tolerance as to how much I can read in one, uninterrupted sitting for a day.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 19, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> There's simply no excuse for a character to not cause a sonic boom if he... oh, I dunno... goes faster than the speed of sound!



Um yea. The rules of 'said' universe are dictated by the author. AT didnt put sonic booms in caus they would fuck up the story. Honestly, what is so hard to understand?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 19, 2006)

_Hes saying that in comic,s as in anime, the laws of physics, and logic, are left out in certain circumstances as it would complicate the story and move it in the wrong direction._

I know what he means. But I don't understan his Hulk analogy, even still after reading it multiple times in other threads.

_Freize than? He cant sense ki, but hes faster than Goku was vs Ginyu. And goku was ftl._

FTL since the Frieza saga? How so then?

_*sigh*_

If you actually look at what I said literally, I did prove lack of sonic booms.

_If you see the scans, Vegeta spends over a page above the clouds contemplating what to do next._

Ah.

_Dramatic purposes of the story._

That's it? It does serve to add drama in terms of story and the conflict at hand, but it still disproves the KameHame Ha's going at lightspeed.

_or i can be a dick and say
Bulma can talk ftl (as she does in the Buu saga- RoSaT paradox), so why cant piccolo?_

Because the speed of sound is the speed of sound. Unless you manage to prove that the speed of sound in DBZ >>>> speed of sound in the real world.

_No he struggled to his feet in a filler scene. Savy?_

Filler? Even if I have no way of knowing, I'll take your word for it.

_Aite. Think about it. If AT included a sonic boom everytime someone went super fast than what would happen?
Ex.
-Bulma and EVERYONE else in the crowd at Goku first tourni would be dead (yea thatd be great for the story)
-ditto second tourni
- Gohan and Krillin (and maybe even Vegeta) would be killed on Namek vs Ginyu Force. This would kinda affect the story caus theyre the main characters of the arc.
- Cell games- Mr Satan would die, totally fucking up the rest of the series, as he needed to take credit for Cells defeat.

But real world rules have to apply to the characters. ATs rules apply._

And AT rules are what, specifically?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 19, 2006)

_Um yea. The rules of 'said' universe are dictated by the author. AT didnt put sonic booms in caus they would fuck up the story. Honestly, what is so hard to understand?_

Whether that is true, or DBZ characters can't exceed the speed of sound for the majority of the time.

One of the two, if one looks at it.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Super-speed while running, eh?
> 
> I can cite at least 2 examples from the top of my head.
> 
> ...



My point is that one hit from Goku the Flash is out. Flash is going to have to find someway to touch Goku by getting around Goku's Sensing abilities and FTL reflexes! Instant Transmission is overkill.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 19, 2006)

_That is different from a punch and in combat._

And you would explain it how?

_My point is Flash is never doing that in Combat, he is always running and trying to fight his opponents. Look at the Zoom battle that I posted earlier._

The absence of proof is not the proof of absence.

If a clone of the slowest Flash can do it, why can't Wally, who's even faster and has more powers than Jay?

_Zoom went down easily after WW got serious._

After being forced to move and roped in by Diana when into position.

_Read from page 5 on up maybe, go look for them._

5, hmm? To what page? Not going to read and sift through about 26 pages.

_My point is that one hit from Goku the Flash is out._

Yes, but if he manages to hit him.

_Flash is going to have to find someway to touch Goku by getting around Goku's Sensing abilities and FTL reflexes!_

Sensing a low, low, low powered human who's moving damn, damn fast.

And FTL reflexes? Debatable.

_Instant Transmission is overkill._

Uh huh. Elaborate then?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> And you would explain it how?
> 
> *Sitting their and spinning your arms in a circular motion very fast is not going to do you any good against Goku.*
> 
> ...



If Goku wanted he can always use Instant Transmission as his Natural speed in battle! He is already locked on too an opponent and he demonstrates this more than once. Against Cell and Kid Buu. Overkill.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 19, 2006)

Read through the first 10 pages. You didn't post any scan Flash related.

_Sitting their and spinning your arms in a circular motion very fast is not going to do you any good against Goku._

One way to interpret my question.

But the point is, he's able to move his arms and limbs at super-speed while stationary. Thus, his super-speed doesn't lie in running.

_Well you can go open up any Flash Comic and look at the serious fights and he is always running around and fighting._

Well, since you have some issues yourself, point me in the right direction first.

_Pathetic display by Zoom._

Uh huh.

_Well you are gonna have to try. _

First 10 pages yielded nothing from you with a Flash scan.

_Yes, Goku will because Goku will always know where the Flash will land._

Uh huh. And does everyone agree with this?

And even _if_ so, how are you going to solve intangibility?

_Does not matter, He has a spirit. Goku will forsee the Flash's movements. Goku can move damn fast himself_

Uh huh. Fast or faster than the Flash? Debatable.

_No truth. you have not disprooven it._

Actually, I did earlier, with ki blasts not being at the speed of light.

Plus, not every DBZ fan believes that they move at FTL, or even have FTL reflexes. There's always a division within the DBZ community.

_If Goku wanted he can always use Instant Transmission as his Natural speed in battle! He is already locked on too an opponent and he demonstrates this more than once. Against Cell and Kid Buu. Overkill._

Against Cell, the only IT I remember is Warp KameHame Ha.

Against Kid Buu? Please state when, and I'll watch it myself.

And if Flash wanted to, he'd steal speed off the bat, go up to a motionless Goku, and shift the speed around his brain for an instant KO if not death, like how Dark Flash did.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Read through the first 10 pages. You didn't post any scan Flash related.
> 
> *Keep reading!! *
> 
> ...



LOL! Flash is dead before he even blinks Shunkan Idou is just too much for the Flash.


----------



## konflikti (Jul 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> It depends on how much the fan actually reads or watches. Piccolo and Roshi blowing up the moon instantly, Vegeta's Final Flash against Cell, reaching space instantly, Cell's Kamehameha against Goku reaching space instantly (Goku had to use Instant Transmission to avoid it) Freiza deflecting Vegeta's bl;ast in space instantly, Buu's Ki blast going around Kaioshin's planet instantly and Goku dodged it. Too many examples of FTL.



Single panel in manga is not an instant. Anyone who has actually read comics and manga should know that.



			
				P said:
			
		

> LOL! Flash is dead before he even blinks Shunkan Idou is just too much for the Flash.



Shunkan Idou doesn't change the speed in which Goku fights at all.



			
				P said:
			
		

> Ki blasts are faster than lightspeed, and you pointed out stuff that has to do with the plot, it was disprooven.



Ki blasts are not lightspeed, you just decided that parts that disprove you are PIS.

I understand that it is easy to come up saying everything is ftl and Goku is so and so strong if you disregard half of the manga as plot induced stupidity.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 19, 2006)

> Ki blasts are not lightspeed, you just decided that parts that disprove you are PIS.
> 
> I understand that it is easy to come up saying everything is ftl and Goku is so and so strong if you disregard half of the manga as plot induced stupidity.



Actually they are somewhat, it reached the moon in about a second, the moon being over 200,000km away, also as the series went on the speed of blasts increast, as attacks that would hit a slower character would not hit a faster character, so speed of blasts would have to make an increase.


----------



## konflikti (Jul 19, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Actually they are somewhat, it reached the moon in about a second, the moon being over 200,000km away, also as the series went on the speed of blasts increast, as attacks that would hit a slower character would not hit a faster character, so speed of blasts would have to make an increase.



The particular issue has been discussed like five times already, and I don't really feel like doing it again. I agree that the blasts most likely move faster in the end of DBZ than in the beginning. That is logical. We don't know at what speed they started though. We could guesstimate something, which the other side would most likely disagree with. I don't think AT paid much attention to the consistency of ki blasts, and that's why I'm against of judging speed by them solely.


----------



## insaneuchiha (Jul 19, 2006)

i thought flash was the 4th hokage oops hah,funny,LOL!!!


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## Endless Mike (Jul 19, 2006)

Flash doesn't have to cause sonic booms when he goes fast because the Speedforce allows him to pick and choose which laws of physics to follow.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 19, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> The particular issue has been discussed like five times already, and I don't really feel like doing it again. I agree that the blasts most likely move faster in the end of DBZ than in the beginning. That is logical. We don't know at what speed they started though. We could guesstimate something, which the other side would most likely disagree with. I don't think AT paid much attention to the consistency of ki blasts, and that's why I'm against of judging speed by them solely.



One theory is that they move much faster in outer space then they do in the atmosphere because there is no atmosphere to slow them down.


----------



## konflikti (Jul 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> One theory is that they move much faster in outer space then they do in the atmosphere because there is no atmosphere to slow them down.



Good theory. I'd agree with it.


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## Gunners (Jul 19, 2006)

> We don't know at what speed they started though. We could guesstimate something, which the other side would most likely disagree with. I don't think AT paid much attention to the consistency of ki blasts, and that's why I'm against of judging speed by them solely.



The blast from the first tourney moved at close to light speeds, from that i say they can dodge attacks moving at light speed, if they could do so so early they can do so by the end. Inconsistency can be said for some of the Flash's feats also.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 19, 2006)

You can't base your entire argument around a single outlier.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 19, 2006)

_Keep reading!! _

As if I didn't have enough on my plate. . .

_Well, when he is fighting a serious opponent he is running._

Uh, against Zoom? You know, the one who possess chronokinesis in relation to his reference frame, and killed Linda and Wally's unborn twins?

He was stationary when he attemped to use to mini-wind vortexes. It's not effective, but it does show he can move his limbs at super-speed.

_You can even open any comic, I have to dig through my stack but I can give you some maybe Wednesday!_

Any comic between the whole +250 of them. Right. . .

_They have too because their is proof in the manga/anime that backs this up._

Funny how not the entire DBZ community agrees to this.

_Ki blasts are faster than lightspeed, and you pointed out stuff that has to do with the plot, it was disprooven._

PIS doesn't hold much water as defense.

_It depends on how much the fan actually reads or watches. Piccolo and Roshi blowing up the moon instantly, Vegeta's Final Flash against Cell, reaching space instantly, Cell's Kamehameha against Goku reaching space instantly (Goku had to use Instant Transmission to avoid it) Freiza deflecting Vegeta's bl;ast in space instantly, Buu's Ki blast going around Kaioshin's planet instantly and Goku dodged it. Too many examples of FTL._

Did you came to this conclusion with the manga or the anime adaption?

_Yep._

For all we know, he could have simultaneously charged up his ki and focused on Cell's.

_Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku dodging Kid Buu's ki blast._

I'll look-see.

_LOL! Flash is dead before he even blinks Shunkan Idou is just too much for the Flash._

If Goku can think at superspeed that's faster than the Flash, sure. If he can.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 19, 2006)

If normal ki blasts routinely travelled at lightspeed or faster, then it would be impossible to see them coming, since they would outrun the light they were emitting/reflecting.

However, people see them coming all the time, so they can't be that fast.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 19, 2006)

> If normal ki blasts routinely travelled at lightspeed or faster, then it would be impossible to see them coming, since they would outrun the light they were emitting/reflecting.
> 
> However, people see them coming all the time, so they can't be that fast.



I think they are luminous and give of their own light, or the actuall light is inside the blast, or, ohh this is a real good one right here, the author doesn't give a shit about physics.



> However, people see them coming all the time, so they can't be that fast.



Well actually they sense the blast comming, and if they see them comming that is credit to the characters speed, you just decided to turn it around in away to deduct from both the speed of the blast and the character. If something travels at light speed so early on, when they are fighting opponents who are much faster than them, wouldn't it make sense to fire the blast if the attacks slip down in speed? The speed of the blast increases with the series, by the first tourny well at the end we know they moved near light speed. By the end of cell we can assume it moved faster than light possibly.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 19, 2006)

That's just dishonest.

You can't just say "Such - and - such is faster than light" and then say "physics doesn't matter" because the speed of light is a constant determined by PHYSICS!

What you're really saying is "physics doesn't matter, except when it helps my argument".


----------



## Gunners (Jul 19, 2006)

^^^ Huh? I don't get you, Akira doesn't follow things like sonic booms, the universe shattering etc.

Though the moon is actually a far distance away and it took Kamehameha about 1 second to reach there, so it travels at a speed close to light.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 19, 2006)

But if physics can't be used, then for all you know the moon could have been only 1 mile away.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Uh, against Zoom? You know, the one who possess chronokinesis in relation to his reference frame, and killed Linda and Wally's unborn twins?
> 
> He was stationary when he attemped to use to mini-wind vortexes. It's not effective, but it does show he can move his limbs at super-speed.
> 
> ...



*Of course goku fights at Superspeed on a regular basis.*


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Freize than? He cant sense ki, but hes faster than Goku was vs Ginyu. And goku was ftl._
> 
> FTL since the Frieza saga? How so then?



Dodging ki blasts so quickly it looks to be passing through you, and that you are standing still. And Frieza was a shitload faster (60 times approx).




> _*sigh*_
> 
> If you actually look at what I said literally, I did prove lack of sonic booms.



Its obvious there are no sonic booms for speed feats. But i've addressed the reasoning.



> _Dramatic purposes of the story._
> 
> That's it? It does serve to add drama in terms of story and the conflict at hand, but it still disproves the KameHame Ha's going at lightspeed.



Writers have been known to take artistic license.
Roshi's ki blast was ftl.
Also it could be due to the amount of energy in the attack. Like with USSJ Trunks, the kamehamehas might have sacrificed speed for strength (note: Krillin did this vs Saiyans). 



> _or i can be a dick and say
> Bulma can talk ftl (as she does in the Buu saga- RoSaT paradox), so why cant piccolo?_
> 
> Because the speed of sound is the speed of sound. Unless you manage to prove that the speed of sound in DBZ >>>> speed of sound in the real world.



Look at the RoSaT, when Gotenks is inside. 



> _No he struggled to his feet in a filler scene. Savy?_
> 
> Filler? Even if I have no way of knowing, I'll take your word for it.



I'd post the scan, but all my images always come out really small. God-damned photobucket. Anyone know another image hosting site?



> _Aite. Think about it. If AT included a sonic boom everytime someone went super fast than what would happen?
> Ex.
> -Bulma and EVERYONE else in the crowd at Goku first tourni would be dead (yea thatd be great for the story)
> -ditto second tourni
> ...



Apparently his rules include, 
- Going ftl does not create a sonic boom, or other crap
- Ki blasts that theoretically have the power to destroy the earth will not, as that would ruin the story.
- Characters will fly super-slow so that the story works out (Gohan, Gotenks, etc)
- Characters will do things, they would never be able to do, for the sake of comedy (ex. Mr. Satan vs Cell/Buu), or dramatic purposes (ex. Picollo)


----------



## SoulTaker (Jul 19, 2006)

IT doesn't help Goku since the Flash is faster than it,and not to mention he can hit Goku with the stregnth of a star.Not too mention he could move so fast he could work up the momentum for the IMP in 7 seconds.On top of that he is capable of vibrating through Goku and making him explode.Just to help some people understand how much the Flash owns here is flashes of his greatness

[X]

[X]

[X]

[X]

[X]


Courtesy of Madguitarist


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 19, 2006)

_Still, it is not combat, throwing kicks and punches._

Not combat? Please.

He can move his limbs at super-speed without running.

He can punch and kick at super-speed then, since he can move his limbs at super-speed.

_No, you mean all you know. Goku was charging up his kamehameha._

That's obvious. But he could also have been focusing on Cell's ki simultaneously to pull off the Warp KameHame Ha.

_Of course goku fights at Superspeed on a regular basis._

Obviously.

But can he think/comprehend things faster than the Flash?

_Dodging ki blasts so quickly it looks to be passing through you, and that you are standing still. And Frieza was a shitload faster (60 times approx)._

I apologize, but I don't understand this analogy.

_Writers have been known to take artistic license.
Roshi's ki blast was ftl._

From the anime depiction or the manga depiction?

_Also it could be due to the amount of energy in the attack. Like with USSJ Trunks, the kamehamehas might have sacrificed speed for strength (note: Krillin did this vs Saiyans). _

Might have sacrificed? So, this is speculation then?

_Look at the RoSaT, when Gotenks is inside. _

What about it? Super Buu and Gotenks ki screamed to get out of the RoSaT.

_I'd post the scan, but all my images always come out really small. God-damned photobucket. Anyone know another image hosting site?_

fileden.com That's where I posted my Supergirl-vibrating-invisible-body scan.

_Apparently his rules include, 
- Going ftl does not create a sonic boom, or other crap_

That, or perhaps they aren't going FTL.

_- Ki blasts that theoretically have the power to destroy the earth will not, as that would ruin the story._

Or perhaps not every ki blast is a planet destroyer.

_- Characters will fly super-slow so that the story works out (Gohan, Gotenks, etc)_

This one, there could be a lot of explanations. Earth's bigger than ours, mental block on speed, actual max flying speed, etc.

_- Characters will do things, they would never be able to do, for the sake of comedy (ex. Mr. Satan vs Cell/Buu)_

What's so extreme about it?

_ or dramatic purposes (ex. Picollo)_

What, managing to get in a few words before the supposed 'lightspeed' KameHame Ha's meet? Even Krillin managed to say a few words in the anime adaption.

First link doesn't work, Soultaker.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 19, 2006)

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it annoying that all the DBZ supporters declare that logic and physics don't apply when it suits them, but they go into conniptions if someone suggests the same thing in a way that works against them?


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Dodging ki blasts so quickly it looks to be passing through you, and that you are standing still. And Frieza was a shitload faster (60 times approx)._
> 
> I apologize, but I don't understand this analogy.



Didnt you want to know why Freiza was ftl on planet namek? Goku was (shown by the ki dodging) and Frieza was 60 times stronger.



> _Writers have been known to take artistic license.
> Roshi's ki blast was ftl._
> 
> From the anime depiction or the manga depiction?
> ...


----------



## Deleted member 15401 (Jul 19, 2006)

i dont get why comic fans are so overobsessed with physics when quite a few of their characters defy the laws. it seems like such a contradiction to me.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 19, 2006)

hjkou said:
			
		

> i dont get why comic fans are so overobsessed with physics when quite a few of their characters defy the laws. it seems like such a contradiction to me.



The point is that just because physics in most fictional universes are not exactly the same as in real life, that doesn't mean you can just ignore them all willy - nilly whenever you feel like it.


----------



## atom (Jul 19, 2006)

Who cares? Golden Ozuaru will rape 'flash'


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 19, 2006)

hjkou said:
			
		

> i dont get why comic fans are so overobsessed with physics when quite a few of their characters defy the laws. it seems like such a contradiction to me.



Ok, the Flash goes speed of light. Defeys physics. So that must mean all physics are out the window, right? That tree over there must be a cat and the sky is blue because its water and clouds are fish.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 19, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:
			
		

> *IT doesn't help Goku since the Flash is faster than it,*and not to mention he can hit Goku with the stregnth of a star.Not too mention he could move so fast he could work up the momentum for the IMP in 7 seconds.On top of that he is capable of vibrating through Goku and making him explode.Just to help some people understand how much the Flash owns here is flashes of his greatness
> 
> *Look at your post, the words in bold are very wrong. Instant Transmission Transcends Time and Space. *
> 
> ...



I can post the scan from JLA where Zum is giving Flash motion sickness because of his After Images! something Goku has been doing since he was a kid in Dragonball.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 20, 2006)

-
You know what's funniest about all this dbz chars move at lightspeed hubub, if they did, *why wouldn't it have been said just once in the manga*? Just once. People always announce how powerful they are and stuff, yet no one, not even once, could simply say OHHH you can move lightspeed now. The fact that no one said a damn thing about it, ever, is the ultimate prrof they don't. God only knows what speed they are, but they're under light. 
Also, FYI, being able to dodge a lightspeed attack does not mean you move at light speed. Moreover, the psy/predictive abilties of dbz chars, are spiderman esque... so it's not rawspeed but reaction. RE-FUCKING-ACTION!:amazed 

-Also, it doesnt matter if there are no sonic booms, or whatever else that may accompany speed, and or lightspeed, it's fiction, and a fictious genre can cateor to whatever the fuck it wants.  So, to bring up physics, and it's lack there of in dbz is a relatively mute point. 

Lastly, the Ki Blast did not travel in to the moon in one second. Go look over the panel's, it was not "one second". Don't be stupid. It was not instantenous Phenomenal. Stop exagerrating. The Ki blast do however appear to increase in speed later in the series though. This can be said based on looking at some of the panel's and how far Toriyama choose to draw the ki blast in space. Cell's for example is why out in space...


----------



## atom (Jul 20, 2006)

instant transmission is instanteous and at his prime goku can do it any time he wants. Goku wins. 

Teleportation > Speed


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 20, 2006)

Bijuukage said:
			
		

> instant transmission is instanteous and at his prime goku can do it any time he wants. Goku wins.
> 
> Teleportation > Speed



...
He has to focus and think so that it can be done. This means that the entire sequence of it is not "instanteous", but rather, the teleportation is, but not what leads up to it. 

Secondly, if Goku can't hurt flash, when he goes intagible, all the speed in the world won't mean pie.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 20, 2006)

Shika shika boo said:
			
		

> -
> You know what's funniest about all this dbz chars move at lightspeed hubub, if they did, *why wouldn't it have been said just once in the manga*? Just once. People always announce how powerful they are and stuff, yet no one, not even once, could simply say OHHH you can move lightspeed now. The fact that no one said a damn thing about it, ever, is the ultimate prrof they don't. God only knows what speed they are, but they're under light.
> Also, FYI, being able to dodge a lightspeed attack does not mean you move at light speed. Moreover, the psy/predictive abilties of dbz chars, are spiderman esque... so it's not rawspeed but reaction. RE-FUCKING-ACTION!:amazed
> 
> ...



Piccolo destroying the moon instantly!
perhaps?
perhaps?

Master Roshi as wel.
perhaps?
perhaps?

Vegeta's Final Flash hitting Space instantly (Note, Cell dodged the blast at the last second which is at point blank range he was damaged but he survived)

perhaps?
perhaps?
perhaps?

Cell's Kamehameha instantly hitting space (Goku used Shunkan Idou to avoid it)

perhaps?
perhaps?

the speed and force of the blast shot straight through the ground and out into space.
perhaps?
perhaps?

In the anime it all looks much faster. Ki blasts are faster than light, Every character in DBZ outfly's, slaps away and outruns Ki blasts.


----------



## konflikti (Jul 20, 2006)

Lol @ your instants. Everyone of them takes multiple panels. Do you honestly believe that anyone would agree with you?



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Their are obvious facts that proove they move faster than light since Dragonball. It does not need to be stated. It does not take a damn rocket scientist to figure that out only common sense.



Maybe you can't understand it because you lack that little rocket scientist. Lightspeed isn't justifiable by common sense.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 20, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Lol @ your instants. Everyone of them takes multiple panels. Do you honestly believe that anyone would agree with you?
> 
> *Do you get tired of being wrong all the time? The blasts are shot and something blows up, or they are in space immediately.In the anime it shows how stuff is blown in an instant.*
> 
> Maybe you can't understand it because you lack that little rocket scientist. Lightspeed isn't justifiable by common sense.



No Konflikti you just do not know what you are talking about.


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## konflikti (Jul 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Do you get tired of being wrong all the time?



You should know. It's your forte.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> The blasts are shot and something blows up, or they are in space immediately.In the anime it shows how stuff is blown in an instant.



Do you even realize how ridiculous that sounds? You can't perceive instant from animation unless it is stated.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> I'm in denial!



I agree.


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## SoulTaker (Jul 20, 2006)

Yea,multiple panels that happen over the course of seconds.It's been shown that the IMP takes seven seconds to do as per Flash's fight with Gorilla Grodd.That punch was the IMP against Zum because I couldn't find the Gorilla Grodd scan.Flash has beaten a alien with the ability to use IT in a race,and it takes several panels to show,but it is happening instaneously.So I fail to see how this would help Goku.







Azumanga Daioh 7?

Wally could do the above as well.

And the kinetic force left behind from Wally vibrating through matter will cause an explosion.The only exceptions are people who have forcefields or are extremely dense,and that means denser than rock.


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## Rangamaru (Jul 20, 2006)

THe flash beat instaneous travel, that's badass!


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## Dark Evangel (Jul 20, 2006)

Instant transmission is not a problem to Flash. He can simply dodge any physical attack from Goku. And the Teleportation > Speed thing is non factor to Flash simply because Flash can travel like 30 times the speed of light which is Flash is more focus on the target while Goku needs to focus where to locate the target using instant transmission.


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## Naruto_Rasengan_ (Jul 20, 2006)

haha flash goku gonna kick his damn ass!!!

_KAMEHAMEHAAAAAAAAAA!_


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## Dark Evangel (Jul 20, 2006)

Naruto_Rasengan_ said:
			
		

> haha flash goku gonna kick his damn ass!!!
> 
> _KAMEHAMEHAAAAAAAAAA!_


.......... 




fanboy


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## Delta Shell (Jul 20, 2006)

I'd say Goku was pretty dense though..he didn't even know the difference between a boy and a girl.

Anyway, I have to agree with this comment here:



> Also, it doesnt matter if there are no sonic booms, or whatever else that may accompany speed, and or lightspeed, it's fiction, and a fictious genre can cateor to whatever the fuck it wants. So, to bring up physics, and it's lack there of in dbz is a relatively mute point.



Also, what comic is that Zoom thing from? I heard he pretty much schooled Flash and was pretty awesome and stuff, i've always wanted to read it. Especially that clicking his fingers and causing a sonic boom thing.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 20, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:
			
		

> Yea,multiple panels that happen over the course of seconds.It's been shown that the IMP takes seven seconds to do as per Flash's fight with Gorilla Grodd.That punch was the IMP against Zum because I couldn't find the Gorilla Grodd scan.Flash has beaten a alien with the ability to use IT in a race,and it takes several panels to show,but it is happening instaneously.So I fail to see how this would help Goku.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I doubt that Wally will be able to vibrate through Goku because Goku is way way denser than objects. As much as I like the Flash, he will get koed in this battle.


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## SoulTaker (Jul 20, 2006)

Yea,he absorbed speed of the entire world in less than the fraction of second,a fact that is stated in those scan,and thats the only way he beat the Instaneous Movement of the alien,and that alien had true Instaneous travel with just having to put a location in mind,no need to transport to ki.

Please tell me how a humanoid is denser than rock?Really,please explain that because the only way Goku is getting out of being exploded is if he has some kind of forcefield,ala Superman or Juggernaut.And even if he used his ki he'd have to do it faster than light,because the Flash just has to in a straight line.

By the way,Zoom did that move by creating a sonic boom with his fingers,even though Wally hasn't done this it is likely he can because it is based on speed and not molecular as most of Barry Allen's feats are.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 20, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:
			
		

> Yea,he absorbed speed of the entire world in less than the fraction of second,a fact that is stated in those scan,and thats the only way he beat the Instaneous Movement of the alien,and that alien had true Instaneous travel with just having to put a location in mind,no need to transport to ki.
> 
> *Flash needed to absorb speed to even run around the world and absorb everyone's speed that fast. Flash will not have this time in battle against Goku.*
> 
> ...



Flash has not done that move only Zoom has demonstrated it. Zoom is not impressive at all either considering Zoom got Tagged by a blind Wonder woman. Flash ain't beating Goku.


----------



## SoulTaker (Jul 20, 2006)

Again he absorbed that speed in the fraction of a second,your going to say that isn't fast enough?




> Flash needed to absorb speed to even run around the world and absorb everyone's speed that fast. Flash will not have this time in battle against Goku.







> Goku is an alien, He can train in heavy gravity that will crush a human like the Flash. Goku could very well be denser than rock. Goku can move so fast that he can become intangible as well.


Yamcha and Tien are definately human and they trained in heavy gravity as well,so does that make them denser than rock?No because they're human.
And thank you for not posting evidence as to the fact that Goku is denser than a normal human,or for that matter intangibility.The Flash moves so fast where a hand can move through him,and it's absolute futile to try to present a arguement in which Goku is faster by any means of his powers.Goku can make cute little after images but thats about it.

Face it the Flash has so many ways of beating Goku,from the speed force dump,to a 7 second punch that has the force of a white force star,to exploding him from kinetic back lash.



> Flash has not done that move only Zoom has demonstrated it. Zoom is not impressive at all either considering Zoom got Tagged by a blind Wonder woman. Flash ain't beating Goku.



Did you happen to read the part where I said he probably could do it because it's not molecular which is the only part of the speed force he has a little trouble with.While Wonder Woman did not have her sight,she had the wisdom of Athena which would help her tag Zoom.Their are instances when the Flash does get tagged but thats really just PIS when it happens.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 20, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:
			
		

> Again he absorbed that speed in the fraction of a second,your going to say that isn't fast enough?
> 
> *Again, he needed to absorb speed, to even absorb the entire world's speed in the fraction of a second. Flash has no time to do that against Goku's instant Transmison.*
> 
> ...



Then do not say he could do the finger snap when he has never shown the ability to do it. So I guess all of the Flash's fights and comics are PIS because he gets tagged all the damn time.


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## konflikti (Jul 20, 2006)

Phenom said:
			
		

> Again, he needed to absorb speed, to even absorb the entire world's speed in the fraction of a second. Flash has no time to do that against Goku's instant Transmison.



So you're saying that Goku's IT is better? Please, prove it.



			
				Phenom said:
			
		

> Goku's intangibility...
> Link removed



Volume and chapter?



> LOL.. No, The Flash is not touching Goku with those attacks. It takes too long for the Flash to do. Flash can not damage Goku at all. It took flash 4 pages to hit Zum with an IMP that is too slow of an attack.



And it takes Goku 15 pages to perform Genki Dama. Not to mention that Goku can't even touch Flash. Your point was?


----------



## Heroin (Jul 20, 2006)

goku makes the flash look slow.....

goku beats him....


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## Delta Shell (Jul 20, 2006)

Oh wow, that Youtube clip takes me back..Man i'd forgotten how awesome Goku could be when he wasn't being a fool.

Pretty good reminder of how crazy Dragonball Z could get in relation to other Shonen manga, current protagonists really wouldn't stand a chance.

Anyway, off topic, sorry.


----------



## SoulTaker (Jul 20, 2006)

I'm not try to be an ass but you're kind of new at these DBZ debates aren't you?No worries though.You can't use the anime in debates,only the manga is admissable because it is cannon,and the what you just cited is filler.Yamcha was filler as well,and him and Tien are human and are not denser than rock because they are human.

And how is the Flash beating a guy, who does not need to focus to use IT,not good enough to show that he can beat Goku's IT.It's a fact plain and simple he can beat IT,and IT that is better than Goku because it does not need to focus on a ki signature.

Again it takes 7 seconds for the Flash to hit someone with the IMP.Panels don't mean anything,he beat IT in 4 pages and it happened less than a second.So the panel arguement is very weak.

And yea pretty much anytime Flash isn't fighting someone with incredibly sharp senses(Superman,Wonderwoman,Mongul) or someone with telepathy or the speed and he gets tagged,thats PIS.


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## Gunners (Jul 20, 2006)

Hmm, well i see it this way, a blood lusted Flash would win as he could straight out charge up to goku and if he can run round sucking the air out his lungs, i don't think phaising through would kill Goku as he isn't a normal human i am guessing he is more dense due to surviving attacks that would vapourise most.

Flash would win if he charge the Earth and hit Goku many times, though Goku could get in the air in time. A blood lusted flash is not someone to fuck with, Goku would probably loose, if Flash starts of easy not to his full potential he would allow Goku time to go airbourne and would probably loose.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 20, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:
			
		

> I'm not try to be an ass but you're kind of new at these DBZ debates aren't you?No worries though.You can't use the anime in debates,only the manga is admissable because it is cannon,and the what you just cited is filler.Yamcha was filler as well,and him and Tien are human and are not denser than rock because they are human.
> 
> *Maybe you did not read when you signed up, This is the Manga/ANIME battledome. Non of those clips contradict the manga it the least. I understand you need to limit Dragonball to suit your argument.*
> 
> ...



Well yeah then all of his comics are PIS, since he gets tagged by Gorilla Grodd, Captain Boomerang and Kadabra.


----------



## SoulTaker (Jul 20, 2006)

Filler can't be used because it does not exist.It does not exist because it was never intended to be apart of the original story and most of the time fillers give false information as well as contradict major facts in the story. They should only be used when referencing filler people, places, things, and/or events.

just because a Dragonball label is on it does not make it fact. By that logic If i argue in a topic about superman I can use the series smallville as a canon source. Though the arguement does get pointless at times. it does not change the fact that using fillers makes things ugly and complicated! here is an example!

King kai told goku that the saiyans(vegeta and nappa) were stronger than himself. Vegeta fights goku without the kaioken and is outmatching him. vegeta later fights the recoome and is beaten. king kai tells recoome that he can beat him. Yamcha beats recoome after trainign with king kai.

by this we see that vegeta is stronger than king kai yet weaker than recoom who is weaker than king kai? Yeah, that makes sense!

Also goku trains and has to use the kaioken x4 to beat vegeta, while recoome easily beats a more powerful vegeta on namek, but yamcha recieved the same training as goku and never learned the kaioken but managed to beat recoome without having to get serious. So vegeta is weaker than goku(saiyan saga) and recoome who are both weaker than yamcha? hell no!

this is why fillers are not used!

Grodd=telepathic,Kadabra=magician,and Boomerang=weakened Wally and even then when Wally really started coming into his own Boomerang became a joke.

IMP has the force of a white dwarf star,which is bigger than earth,so imagine Goku getting hit by something bigger than earth.

I know this is off-topic but can you find any Yu Yu Hakusho episodes by any chance?


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 20, 2006)

You can't pick and choose fillers to suit yourself. If they are largely inconsistent we don't use them in their entirety, use the highest canon, manga. 

In my opinion, Yamucha should not have been anywhere near the level of Recoome. Tien should not be able to defeat two Ginyu Force members by himself.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 20, 2006)

Wow,The anime does not Contradict the manga. It only depends on certain fillers. Fillers like Garlic junior or when Goku and Piccolo got their license had no barring on the story.

Some Fillers helps explain the actual story better or show more of the indivdual's power. In Gokus case it did. In my opinion the anime completed things.


----------



## Final Ultima (Jul 20, 2006)

Phenomenol, as I addressed several months ago, that intangibility feat against Jeese and Burter is filler.

NejiTachi


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 20, 2006)

My point is that you can't pick and choose parts of filler, it just isn't good debating sense. Some filler is absolutely atrocious, discarding it makes sense but you can't then use evidence _from the same source_ to support an argument.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 20, 2006)

It wasn't even intangibility, it was just moving out of the way really fast so it looked like he didn't move.

And all of those scans of ki blasts flying into space showed them not even moving a single earth diameter, where light moves over 7 earth diameters per second.

Not to mention no timeframe was specified so they're useless.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 20, 2006)

This is ANIME/Manga battledome! That filler scene that I used does not contradict the manga in anyway. It only explained his powers more...

It does not matter because Goku can easily KO the Flash without that scene. So what the hell is the Flash going to do to Goku?

Goku can easily Forsee his movements, and with Goku's faster than light reflexes Flash has no chance in hell.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 20, 2006)

You have no proof that, apart from IT, Goku has faster - than - light ANYTHING.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 20, 2006)

Goku was faster than lightning as a child in Dragonball after his training. Master Roshi and Krillin played rock paper scissors and fought exchange blows and he thought out their attacks all under a second! Ki Blasts are faster than light. Goku was using After Images as a child in Dragonball. As DBZ went on their power was in the millions easily making them faster and stronger. Ki Blasts are faster than light.

There is plenty of proof that prooves they are faster than light.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 20, 2006)

1. Lightning in the atmosphere does not move anywhere near the speed of light.

2. Dodging lightning does not mean you are faster than it.

3. They only moved about 15 feet in that entire exchange, that's hardly lightspeed.

4. Afterimages only mean that something is travelling to fast for your eyes to follow.

5. No evidence of ki blasts being faster than light.

6. No, you're just making crap up. You never proved anything on the DBZ speed thread, you won't prove anything here.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 20, 2006)

Still answer this, if flash is intageable, he most be able to use it easily for it to be affective against Goku, right? How did Deathstroke stab him?


----------



## Final Ultima (Jul 20, 2006)

If you use filler, then would you really argue that the likes of Yamcha and Tenshinhan gained...in a matter of days...about as much power as Goku (including Kaiouken) took months to accumulate? How about a rock hurting a Super Saiya-jin Goku? Or further more, that Yamcha is far stronger than someone shown to be comparable to a warrior far beyond Super Perfect Cell?

Like Delta Shell said, you can't just pick filler that's convenient for your argument and disregard the rest, or we may as well just retort to your argument by picking Goku's low-end feats and disregarding his high-end feats. It doesn't work that way.

Hell, I may as well just write a fanfiction and make up feats. Just because TOEI is a company doesn't make their added or edited scenes any more valid. We go by canon unless stated otherwise, that's just how it works here.

In regards to Mr. Popo's statement, there was nothing to indicate that he was speaking in a literal sense, as the anime filler would have you believe. As for the Jackie Chun vs Kurilin scenario, myself and a friend can recreate those events within about ten seconds. Is that any indication that I'll one day reach a speed beyond that of sound, let alone light?


----------



## SoulTaker (Jul 20, 2006)

Vegeta was leagues upon Yamcha when they first met.If we go by the Daizenshuu and the manga,Vegeta=16,000-18,000 Yamcha=1,200.Now Vegeta gets stronger through zenkai,and still can't beat Recoome.Filler says Yamcha,Tien,and Chaotzu have to gain more in a couple of days than Goku gained in a year to beat the Ginyu Force.Filler just is wacky.



> Still answer this, if flash is intageable, he most be able to use it easily for it to be affective against Goku, right? How did Deathstroke stab him?



I don't want to sound like i'm trying to come up with excuses for everything but that is really PIS.I mean Flash got stabbed and GL tried to punch Deathstroke instead of using his ring.

Yea,english is perfect and perferably the dark tournament because I lost those episodes.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 20, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> 1. Lightning in the atmosphere does not move anywhere near the speed of light.
> 
> 2. Dodging lightning does not mean you are faster than it.
> 
> ...



Flash can not beat Goku, he can not phase through Goku who is denser than rock itself.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 20, 2006)

Phenomenol, you lost like, 20 pages ago man. -_-

Everything you brought up got shot down bad, and you still insist that you can't be wrong. WTF?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 20, 2006)

> No, Mr. Popo demonstrated how to move FASTER than lightning! I will go with what the manga said instead of your baseless opinions.



That was poetic language. Not literal.



> Considering the fact they did all of that under a second as children in Dragonball.



It was a second, not under a second, only one of them was a child, and unless you have canon figures on exactly how much faster they've gotten, it means nothing.


> Wrong! and they did this as children! I know why don't I post where Zum gives Flash Motion Sickness because of After Images.



When they were both confirmed as moving FTL....


> Blowing up planets instantly and hitting space instantly.



It's not 'instantly' in a manga since there is no given timeframe. Not to mention they travelled much less than 1 earth diameter, that's not nearly c.



> Flash can not beat Goku, he can not phase through Goku who is denser than rock itself.



No proof of that. Besides, Flash can easily phase through rock, and if Goku's blood was denser than rock, it would be too viscous to flow throughout his body.


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## Countach (Jul 20, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That was poetic language. Not literal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




i dont know, it can be denser then rock because he is an alien and who is to say so we cant say it is or is not


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## Phenomenol (Jul 20, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That was poetic language. Not literal.
> 
> *Your chatting Garbage, Mr. Popo not only said "Faster Than Lightning" but demonstrated it as well. *
> 
> ...



Flash won't even touch Goku. Goku trains in heavy ass gravity, Swords missles nor bombs can penetrate his skin.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 20, 2006)

> Your chatting Garbage, Mr. Popo not only said "Faster Than Lightning" but demonstrated it as well.



He also said he had to move like the wind or the water or some other poetic claptrap.

Not literal.



> Actually it means that they did that all with powerlevels under 160! consider the fact that with their speed they Vanish or disapear. They get stronger as the series went on. Use your common sense if you have any



I'm not denying that they got faster, there's just no proof for how much faster. Unless you have solid figures on that, it means nothing.



> Wrong they were not even moving at lightspeed and Zum gave Flash motion sickness just from After Images. Goku can do that all day.



Then how do you explain how Flash beats FTL foes all the time?



> theri is no time frame becasue they blow up planets and reach space immediately.



Are you really this ignorant or are you purposefully being dense? There's no way to tell how long it took in manga form because no time frame is given. So you can't say 'intantly'.



> Flash won't even touch Goku. Goku trains in heavy ass gravity, Swords missles nor bombs can penetrate his skin



And a guy who can vibrate through solid matter, move many times faster than light, become intangible, steal speed from a target, dump a target into another dimension, and punch a target with the force of the mass of a neutron star is only as dangerous as a sword or a missile....


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## Phenomenol (Jul 20, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He also said he had to move like the wind or the water or some other poetic claptrap.
> 
> Not literal.
> 
> ...



The Flash can not go "many many many times the speed of light" like you put it. The Flash needs help to do that, and he needs big help. The Flash gets tagged by Gorilla Grodd, Slow ass Captain Boomerang and he could not even dodge Kadabra's lightning attacks.  The Flash is not beating Goku.


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## SoulTaker (Jul 20, 2006)

Lighting in the atmosphere is slower than it usually is,now imagine it closer to the earth.It is slower.

Goku and co. don't vanish they move faster than sight,this has been said.

The Flash saved 500,000 people from a explosion that took .000001 seconds to go off,yea he really struggle to go FTL.He goes faster than light speed,and like I said before the 4 panels are over the course of seconds.

And we already have established the anime is it's own entity that can't be used in debates,and it's impossible to know how fast the blast is going in the scan.

I posted that Gorilla Grodd is a telepath,Boomerang tagged Wally in the 80's when he could only go speed of sound and he is faster than that now which is why Boomerang is a joke,and Kadabra is using magic.

Can you give me the english episodes of YYH?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 20, 2006)

> Your chatting Garbage, he did not say anything like that.



I clearly read it, you even posted a scan yourself in an earlier thread.



> Of course they got Faster! If Goku was able to move faster than lightning leave after images as a child, and Vanish out of thin air (which means light is not relfecting on them). Your telling me later they do not move lightspeed or faster?



Lightning is nowhere near the speed of light, and he wasn't faster than it.

And vanishing just means he's going too fast for people to percieve and their brain to properly corellate and track his movements, it doesn't have anything to do with lightspeed.

You have no proof on exactly how much stronger/faster/etc. they have become anyway.



> Flash does not beat FTL foes all the time, It is hard for the Flash to even run at lightspeed hell it kills him if he tries to go beyond that. Flash just runs at Superspeed most of the time or unless he has stole speed he can achieve lightspeed and more. It took Flash 4 pages to reach lightspeed against Zum.



You can't just keep using one example and declare it is the standard when there are plenty of higher showings.



> The Ki blast are faster than light you see how fast the moon blows up and how fast the yreach space. Their is no break between it.



THAT'S BECAUSE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO ACCURATELY PORTRAY PASSAGE OF TIME IN A MANGA!

GOD!!!!


> The Flash can not go "many many many times the speed of light" like you put it. The Flash needs help to do that, and he needs big help. The Flash gets tagged by Gorilla Grodd, Slow ass Captain Boomerang and he could not even dodge Kadabra's lightning attacks. The Flash is not beating Goku.



Flash routinely goes many times lightspeed, he can even go up to trillions of times lightspeed, and Grodd has only beaten him using offensive telepathy, the rogues use prep time and advanced tricks, and you can't just take low showings and ignore all the others.

Flash wins in 0.000001 seconds.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 20, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:
			
		

> Lighting in the atmosphere is slower than it usually is,now imagine it closer to the earth.It is slower.
> 
> *What are you talking about? No, Mr. Popo demonstrated how to move FASTER than lightning!.*
> 
> ...



Yeah I can give you the episodes of YYH. Which ones (wgat tournament)


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 20, 2006)

Once again, it bears mentioning that Goku could only save Mr. Satan from a Giant Ball that was moving far slower than the speed of light, while the Flash saved half a million people in the time it takes for a nuclear bomb to blow up after impact.


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## Gunners (Jul 20, 2006)

> Phenomenol, you lost like, 20 pages ago man. -_-
> 
> Everything you brought up got shot down bad, and you still insist that you can't be wrong. WTF?



Why have you declared a winner, to me it is still going on as i see how Goku could win.

If flash had bloodlust, he would possibly win, running round Goku and sucking the air from his lungs, then again it would take about 5 minutes or more ( martial arts) for Goku to pass out in which time he would blast the flash. I don't think Phaising would work as i beleive dbz characters are somewhat denser. Anyway, if he has the intent to kill i guess he could win if he manages to keep Goku on the ground.

If he is just normal Flash not all out, i think Goku would win, like not really that hard, bloodlusted Flash would be difficult.


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## Gunners (Jul 20, 2006)

> Once again, it bears mentioning that Goku could only save Mr. Satan from a Giant Ball that was moving far slower than the speed of light, while the Flash saved half a million people in the time it takes for a nuclear bomb to blow up after impact.



You have to remember in Z times things move a lot faster than we peceive them.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 20, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> You have to remember in Z times things move a lot faster than we peceive them.



Untrue, since the background characters always react to stuff happening at normal time.


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## Gunners (Jul 20, 2006)

> Untrue, since the background characters always react to stuff happening at normal time.
> _______________



What was it, plot induced stupidity, no for shit like this Akira didn't give a dam, i am going to go right ahead and say characters have above human reflexes all of them. I can't bebothered to explain it any other way so i will go with that method, which is somewhat true, they move at high speeds yet others in the back ground move, either the author didn't give a shit as he focused on plot or action, or the adverage character is above normal human standard.


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## Suzumebachi (Jul 20, 2006)

> Why have you declared a winner, to me it is still going on as i see how Goku could win.



Well, ok, but you aren't making up stuff.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 20, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:
			
		

> Lighting in the atmosphere is slower than it usually is,now imagine it closer to the earth.It is slower.
> 
> Goku and co. don't vanish they move faster than sight,this has been said.
> 
> ...



-ur statment about lighting cannot necessarily be said to be true for dbz, simply because dbz ignores many commonalities and laws of nature. Moreover, it has an occult focus. Your statement should be true, but, if we factor in certain dbz only things, it becomes questionable.

- People need to stop using the Jla example where Flash saved all those people from The Burning firing the nukes as proof of Ftl. It is stated in the comic he went just under the spped of light. It doesn't matter what the real calculations indicate, he went just under the speed of light. The writers obviously didnt' care about the calculations. The dialogue just under the speed of light, means that was the intention. 

-Gorrila Grood and Kadabra are jokes. Realistically, Flash should be able to pwn them twenty times over, before they can even do anything, and that includes thinking.  There's usually some lame reason he doesn't, or some prep evolved though. However, sometimes it is just nonsensical, when we compare those showings to "true flash showings". The later is more prominent Phenomenal...




			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> THAT'S BECAUSE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO ACCURATELY PORTRAY PASSAGE OF TIME IN A MANGA!
> 
> Flash routinely goes many times lightspeed, he can even go up to trillions of times lightspeed, and Grodd has only beaten him using offensive telepathy, the rogues use prep time and advanced tricks, and you can't just take low showings and ignore all the others.
> 
> Flash wins in 0.000001 seconds.



It's not utterly impossible, although to give exact time is. However, we could guesstimate, based on the reactions and diffrent frames, and or dialogue. If we take the Piccolo and the moon exploding for example, yes it's really hard. However, if we take the Master Roshi one, and look at the fact that humans beings had time to raise their hands, and be in awe and fear, it seems to come out to between 4-10 seconds. (Guesstimation) Ahem, but I see your point, about it being useless to try and assign speed based solely on manga panels. However, if you actually take that notion to heart, then "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. So, if someone then turns around and attempts to create an argument about faster then lightmovement, for the final chars, your own notion does not allow you to completly disapprove their notions on speed. LOL. 

----
Give one shred of evidence Flash can go trillions the times the speed of light. 
Flash can go many times the speed of light, if he does certain things, and also without them, but, not all of those are acessible in this fight anyway. Ahem, so yeah, your statement is simply the greatest overestimation since Phenomenal denied  Lucifer Morning star would beat Vegito.  

Flash wins easily, but stop exageratting his speed, he is not trillions the times the speed of light.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 21, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> What was it, plot induced stupidity, no for shit like this Akira didn't give a dam, i am going to go right ahead and say characters have above human reflexes all of them. I can't bebothered to explain it any other way so i will go with that method, which is somewhat true, they move at high speeds yet others in the back ground move, either the author didn't give a shit as he focused on plot or action, or the adverage character is above normal human standard.



If you're going to resort to making up crap with no evidence to back it up, you've already lost.


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## llad (Jul 21, 2006)

man look i not gonna argue or anything but ive seen flash get his ass beat to many times to say he would win against goku.... flash sucks  i mean every time ive seen or read about flash fighting he either trips on something and takes a superspeed trip to the ground or the villian sticks his fist out and flash like an idiot runs into it. he sucks goku pwns him end of argument


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## Endless Mike (Jul 21, 2006)

Shika shika boo said:
			
		

> -ur statment about lighting cannot necessarily be said to be true for dbz, simply because dbz ignores many commonalities and laws of nature. Moreover, it has an occult focus. Your statement should be true, but, if we factor in certain dbz only things, it becomes questionable.



That only works if you can prove there's a difference.

When analyzing fiction, all physical laws are assumed to be the same as in real life unless they are explicitly contradicted and rationalization on the side of parsimony is impossible.

So do you have proof that lightning moves faster in DBZ?

I could just as easily say that it moves slower.


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## Shiron (Jul 21, 2006)

llad said:
			
		

> man look i not gonna argue or anything but ive seen flash get his ass beat to many times to say he would win against goku.... flash sucks  i mean every time ive seen or read about flash fighting he either trips on something and takes a superspeed trip to the ground or the villian stcks his fist out and flash runs into it he sucks goku pwns him end of argument


 CIS/PIS (Character Induced Stupidity/Plot Induced Stupidity) are what the things you mention boil down to. They in no way make the Flash less powerful and less likely to loose against Goku (that is, unless CIS is on). Or would you say in a serious fight that Naruto would loose against Konohamaru becuase he's (Naruto) stupid and has done some stupid stuff?


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## Gunners (Jul 21, 2006)

> If you're going to resort to making up crap with no evidence to back it up, you've already lost.



But i am not making up crap. Goku moves at a high speed and normal people can see him, we know they move a minimum of sound speed i think it worked out to. So there is one of two chocies, pic.

The author didn't give a dam about the little details.
The adverage character has fast reflexes above normal humans.

Pick, because the characters move faster than sound at minimum so in theory they shouldn't be seen. Authors mistake or characters with fast reflexes.

Ohh i guess you lost the debate when you sprouted that shit about ''trillion times faster than light'' it is funny how you rant and rave about Phlem, yet you do the exact same shit, to a worse degree, time and time again.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 21, 2006)

That was backed up by actual evidence and calculations, which you don't have.

You're ignoring the option that DBZ characters and attacks simply aren't that fast.


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## llad (Jul 21, 2006)

shit i den seen naruto do alot of stupid stuff  maybe you never know. but i wasnt really talkin bout how smart the fighters are hell in there own ways both the flash and goku arent the smartest people anime but wat im sayin is just based on power not taking intelligence or the enviroment of the battle field the weather and all the stuff that can effect the fight but just based on raw power i think goku can win maybe not easily


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## Gunners (Jul 21, 2006)

> That was backed up by actual evidence and calculations, which you don't have.
> 
> You're ignoring the option that DBZ characters and attacks simply aren't that fast.
> ________



No it was backed up by shit, Flash doesn't move a trillion times light speed you are lieing through your teeth.

Dbz characters can move a minimum of sound speed, yet characters can see them, two choices, well you know what they are .


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## Endless Mike (Jul 21, 2006)

Goku won't be able to do anything because he will be beaten before he can even react.

Flash just runs up to him, touches him once, and his speed is stolen.

Fight over.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 21, 2006)

Apparently you just ignored the math.

532,000 people 35 miles each, plus return trips, in 0.00001 microseconds = trillions of times lightspeed.

Take out a calculator and do it yourself.

And DBZ characters move slow enough for background people to react to their attacks, and they pause enough during their fights to be seen.


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## Gunners (Jul 21, 2006)

> Goku won't be able to do anything because he will be beaten before he can even react.
> 
> Flash just runs up to him, touches him once, and his speed is stolen.
> 
> Fight over.



How would there be speed if Goku hasn't moved yet, regardless i think Goku would get in the air before Flash could get him.


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## llad (Jul 21, 2006)

have u guys gunners and endless mike have been arguing about this since page three let me repeat dat page three its know page 36 dats a long ass arguement matter of fact dis thread was made the 14 yall been arguing for six daysyall must be havin fun... but i have to agree with gunners mike from wat i read all ur so called facts are based on nothing u do wat so many anime watchers and manga readers do. *u assume *


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## Endless Mike (Jul 21, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> How would there be speed if Goku hasn't moved yet, regardless i think Goku would get in the air before Flash could get him.



It doesn't matter if he's moving or not, stealing speed steals all potential of speed.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 21, 2006)

llad said:
			
		

> have u guys gunners and endless mike have been arguing about this since page three let me repeat dat page three its know page 36 dats a long ass arguement matter of fact dis thread was made the 14 yall been arguing for six daysyall must be havin fun... but i have to agree with gunners mike from wat i read all ur so called facts are based on nothing u do wat so many anime watchers and manga readers do. *u assume *



I'm giving actual facts and evidence to make my point, where some people (who shall remain unnamed) are just making up bullshit excuses and crap theories with no evidence.


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## llad (Jul 21, 2006)

u would argue forever wouldnt u i wouldnt be so hard on u if u just admit that goku would but up a decent fight but u acting like the flash owns all hell i remember the flash was the shitest hero in dc(batman the best) DC just gave flash a buff so he would appeal to people like u in the all flash sucks


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 21, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Apparently you just ignored the math.
> 
> 532,000 people 35 miles each, plus return trips, in 0.00001 microseconds = trillions of times lightspeed.
> 
> ...



Apparently, you just ignored the actual comic, and the stupidity or apathy of writers. Within the jla comic you're reffering to, it is stated that Flash moved under the speed of light. The calculations you're so admament about displaying, have no barring on the reality of the comic book, and the writers of it. The writers wrote he went under the speed of light. They'd did not write, he moved several times the speed of light, or at the speed of light. It is stated as under. The implication is clear. The numerical assigning cannot undercut the final statements written out in large characters, of how he moved just under the speed of light. The focus and finality of the statment is the conclusive evidence of that fact. 

 So, the calculations may, and in this case do indicate something else, but, if you've actually read the Jla comics, which I know you have, up to that point in time Flash was never portrayed as being able to move trillions the time the speed of light. I remember a thread where you where talking about a winner to a fight is objective, well in this case, the facts are objective. You are being subjective and attempting to disassociate the reality of Flashes speed in that instant, to serve your purpose. Flash easily wins this fight, simply because Flash is broken and Goku has no means of hurting him or even keeping up with him, but, HE CANNOT MOVE TRILLIONS THE TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT. 

If you deny what the narrator is openly stating as being the "actuality" of the scene, then you're either doing one of two thing. First, you'd be dismissing the validity of comic writing, and that narrators have any power in assigning power levels or character abilties.  Or second, you'd be stating the narrator of that jla issue could not be trusted: an untruthful narrator. Therefore his comments could have been inapropriate or wrong.  The latter demands proof, so either provide it, or stop deluding yourself that Flash Can move a trillion times the speed of light, off one instance where it is obvious what his speed was meant to be. (As determined by explict narrative dialogue, previous Jla showings of him and those of Flash in his comic.)


----------



## llad (Jul 21, 2006)

Shika shika boo said:
			
		

> Apparently, you just ignored the actual comic, and the stupidity or apathy of writers. Within the jla comic you're reffering to, it is stated that Flash moved under the speed of light. The calculations you're so admament about displaying, have no barring on the reality of the comic book, and the writers of it. The writers wrote he went under the speed of light. They'd did not write, he moved several times the speed of light, or at the speed of light. It is stated as under. The implication is clear. The numerical assigning cannot undercut the final statements written out in large characters, of how he moved just under the speed of light. The focus and finality of the statment is the conclusive evidence of that fact.
> 
> So, the calculations may, and in this case do indicate something else, but, if you've actually read the Jla comics, which I know you have, up to that point in time Flash was never portrayed as being able to move trillions the time the speed of light. I remember a thread where you where talking about a winner to a fight is objective, well in this case, the facts are objective. You are being subjective and attempting to disassociate the reality of Flashes speed in that instant, to serve your purpose. Flash easily wins this fight, simply because Flash is broken and Goku has no means of hurting him or even keeping up with him, but, HE CANNOT MOVE TRILLIONS THE TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT.
> 
> If you deny what the narrator is openly stating as being the "actuality" of the scene, then you're either doing one of two thing. First, you'd be dismissing the validity of comic writing, and that narrators have any power in assigning power levels or character abilties.  Or second, you'd be stating the narrator of that jla issue could not be trusted: an untruthful narrator. Therefore his comments could have been inapropriate or wrong.  The latter demands proof, so either provide it, or stop deluding yourself that Flash Can move a trillion times the speed of light, of one instance where it is obvious what his speed was meant to be. (As determined by previous Jla showing, and even those of Flash.)


even though i disagree about the winner the above comment got u mad respect


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## Phenomenol (Jul 21, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> It doesn't matter if he's moving or not, stealing speed steals all potential of speed.



And you act as if Goku is going to stand their and get his damn speed stolen while Flash runs around him. Goku will sense the Flash easily and know where the Flash will strike at. You keep talking as if the Flash is already at lightspeed where it takes the man a considerable amount of enery to get to lightspeed. 

Goku can fight with the Flash all damn day this is a fight it is Goku's Forte for God sakes, not a race. If Flash is so great why did Zum give Flash motion sickness from leaving *AFTER IMAGES *that you claim that are not anywhere near lightspeed? 

This is a fight, Goku has Sensing abilities along with his SuperSpeed that allows him to Vanish out of sight.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 21, 2006)

If the narration says one thing, and the comic itself shows something different, then the comic is right and the narration is wrong.



> And you act as if Goku is going to stand their and get his damn speed stolen while Flash runs around him. Goku will sense the Flash easily and know where the Flash will strike at. You keep talking as if the Flash is already at lightspeed where it takes the man a considerable amount of enery to get to lightspeed.
> 
> Goku can fight with the Flash all damn day this is a fight it is Goku's Forte for God sakes, not a race. If Flash is so great why did Zum give Flash motion sickness from leaving AFTER IMAGES that you claim that are not anywhere near lightspeed?
> 
> This is a fight, Goku has Sensing abilities along with his SuperSpeed that allows him to Vanish out of sight.



Goku is just moving too slow, he would be frozen in time from Flash's perspective, or moving at a snail's speed. Sure, he can vanish from sight to a normal person's eyes, but from Flash's perspective he would just be moving really slow.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 21, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Goku is just moving too slow, he would be frozen in time from Flash's perspective, or moving at a snail's speed. Sure, he can vanish from sight to a normal person's eyes, but from Flash's perspective he would just be moving really slow.



Wow, "Goku is moving too slow." You are the king at making baseless ass claims. You are chatting Garbage, Flash's perspective is so great yet he got killed by Doom and stabbed by Deathstroke huh.:amazed  Goku can create *After Images *just like Zum did and the Flash won't touch him.:amazed


----------



## llad (Jul 21, 2006)

mike u and ur buffed up flash i been in these types of argue ments before there is no changing ur mind about this so i dont care anymore but for ur future reference u cant just say o hes gonna run up and beat him like in an instant especially for a character like the flash if u like him so much and know him well than u know that he is the comedian of the series and is gonna talk shit


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 21, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> And you act as if Goku is going to stand their and get his damn speed stolen while Flash runs around him. Goku will sense the Flash easily and know where the Flash will strike at. You keep talking as if the Flash is already at lightspeed where it takes the man a considerable amount of enery to get to lightspeed.
> 
> Goku can fight with the Flash all damn day this is a fight it is Goku's Forte for God sakes, not a race. If Flash is so great why did Zum give Flash motion sickness from leaving *AFTER IMAGES *that you claim that are not anywhere near lightspeed?
> 
> This is a fight, Goku has Sensing abilities along with his SuperSpeed that allows him to Vanish out of sight.



Within the same Jla comic being talked about, we see that Flash can move just under the speed of light with very little warning. 
Secondly, Flash does not need to move at Lightspeed to be to fast for Goku.
Thirdly, Zum is God, do not doubt is uberness. 
Fourth, if you want proof of Flash trumphing someone with "supersenses", you need look no further then Superman. He may lack the supposed "telepathicprecogness', but, he is far superior in feeling present motion. 
Lastly, has Lee taught you nothing? Just because you can sense something, and know it's coming, doesn't mean your body has the speed to react.  

---------------------------------------
Who has better reaction speed, Flash. 
Who has better raw speed, Flash. 
Who can avoid the others attacks easier, Flash. 
Who has a better artelliery of abilties to kill the other, Flash. 
Therefore who wins, Flash. 
The argument was concluded, we have a winner. It is Flash.....:amazed


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## llad (Jul 21, 2006)

mike u and ur buffed up flash i been in these types of argue ments before there is no changing ur mind about this so i dont care anymore but for ur future reference u cant just say o hes gonna run up and beat him like in an instant especially for a character like the flash if u like him so much and know him well than u know that he is the comedian of the series and is gonna talk shit


----------



## llad (Jul 21, 2006)

i still think goku owns flash


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 21, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> If the narration says one thing, and the comic itself shows something different, then the comic is right and the narration is wrong.
> 
> Goku is just moving too slow, he would be frozen in time from Flash's perspective, or moving at a snail's speed. Sure, he can vanish from sight to a normal person's eyes, but from Flash's perspective he would just be moving really slow.



Without the narration, we also wouldn't know the number or the distance. The comic without narration, tells us little. The statement of what his speed was tells us everything. Numberical assiging can be wrong, when done by people who don't know or give a shit. Admiteddly, so could narration. However, the fact Flash never came to anything close to a trillion times the speed of light, in any other Flash comics or the other 80 or so Jla prior to that, makes your assumption idoitic and without foundation. Simply because the comics that follow, also debunk your assumptions as an impossibility; seeing as Flash never again shows, with little warning mind you, and no outside aid or boost, to be able to move at trillions of times the speed of light.
Honestly, look back and forward, and you'll find nothing that supports Flash being able to move trillions the speed of light, with no aid and at a whim.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 21, 2006)

Shika shika boo said:
			
		

> Within the same Jla comic being talked about, we see that Flash can move just under the speed of light with very little warning.
> 
> *LOL! The Flash looked like he was going to collapse and he was not moving at lightspeed.*
> 
> ...



Goku wins, The Flash gets taken out by characters weaker than Spiderman.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 21, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku wins, The Flash gets taken out by characters weaker than Spiderman.



Your point is mute. Flash has also taken out people stronger then the dbzverse...


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 21, 2006)

Shika shika boo said:
			
		

> Your point is mute. Flash has also taken out people stronger then the dbzverse....



LOL! Oh really? I hope you are not reffering to ZOOM! Zoom who got knocked out by a BLIND Wonder Woman.:amazed


----------



## konflikti (Jul 21, 2006)

It's kinda hard to argue with a person who has no grasp of physics whatsoever, believes all comic panels are instants and thinks that digging up the lowest possible showings for a character actually means something.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 21, 2006)

_Another Baseless opinion with no proof of, Zum was garbage and he used After Images, something the Flash could not handle nor keep up with, and Goku has been doing this since he was a child. _

Give me the issue number and I'll read it. Unless you can't.

_Sharingan and DBZ senses are not the same. this is not Naruto._

And DBZ warriors do not have precognitive abilities.

And I've been making that Sharingan comparison way back in the Vegito vs. Vegito thread.

_Deathstroke and Doomsday say otherwise. _

Deathstroke's a meta-human. After Brad Meltzer's wrote Identity Crisis, he's like a walking prep-time Batman who's a mercenary.

As for Doomsday, Booster Gold confirms that Doomsday reacts as fast as the Flash back in Death of Superman in the JLA issue of the storyline.

_Travelling speed yes, Combat speed is debatable._

I already pointed out that he can move his limbs at super-speed, and punch at super-speed.

_LOL! just like the Flash avoided Zum and his after Images huh. _

Issue number, and I'll read it.

_Wow, this is hardly a fact. Goku has the more combat techniques stuff that I have not even named yet._

Go ahead. Name them.

Topic ain't over yet.

And curious. . . how many seconds is a microseconds?

_LOL! Oh really? I hope you are not reffering to ZOOM! Zoom who got knocked out by a BLIND Wonder Woman._

Pssh. Regardless, people wish they have Zoom's powers.

Chronokinesis in relation with your reference frame of time? Damn.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 21, 2006)

A microsecond is one millionth of a second.

And Flash also beat the Anti - Monitor, for one....


----------



## Dark Evangel (Jul 21, 2006)

I think bloodlusted Flash is the key to victory btw why is Goku winning in the poll?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 21, 2006)

Leaf_Jutsu said:
			
		

> I think bloodlusted Flash is the key to victory btw why is Goku winning in the poll?


Fanboys, basically.


----------



## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Jul 21, 2006)

Can someone tell me how, if this guy is as strong as he sounds, ANYONE can even be a match to him? From your description i can't see any possible way to defeat this guy unless you somehow can warp reality.

I mean Goku had lots of stronger people to fight while still being overpowered. This guy sounds like NO ONE can fight him evenly unless you have some way (reality warping) to avoid fighting him in the first place.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 21, 2006)

You mean the Flash?

Well Zoom can fight him and beat him because he is faster than Flash, and his speed can't be stolen because it is temporal based.


----------



## Shiron (Jul 21, 2006)

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:
			
		

> Can someone tell me how, if this guy is as strong as he sounds, ANYONE can even be a match to him? From your description i can't see any possible way to defeat this guy unless you somehow can warp reality.
> 
> I mean Goku had lots of stronger people to fight while still being overpowered. This guy sounds like NO ONE can fight him evenly unless you have some way (reality warping) to avoid fighting him in the first place.


 Other than what Endless Mike said with people like Zoom, some people beat/pose a threat to the Flash in his comic series because of CIS/PIS (Character Induced Stupidity/Plot Induced Stupididty) on the Flash's part.


----------



## SoulTaker (Jul 21, 2006)

Then their are a whole slew of characters not as fast but around his speed and they can compensate with super senses,like Wonder Woman,Superman, Doomsday or Mongol just to name a few.Then their is telepathy with guys like Goorilla Grodd.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 21, 2006)

Also a lot of his villains are really clever and make good use of prep time.


----------



## ChicagosWhooKid (Jul 24, 2006)

Goku, he can do everything the Flash can, plus more


----------



## ChicagosWhooKid (Jul 24, 2006)

Goku, he can do everything the Flash can, plus more


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 24, 2006)

_Goku, he can do everything the Flash can, plus more _

So, Goku can do everything that the Flash can, eh?

When did Goku ever
-vibrate his molecules
-go intangible via molecule vibration
-travelled through time
-steal kinetic energy/speed
-add kinetic energy/speed
-think/compute at super-speed

There are things that Goku can do that Flash can't, and vice-versa.

On Flash's side, he
-can't fly
-is no martial artist, least a capable hand-to-hand combatant
-produce ki blasts
-is not as durable/invunerable


----------



## Renegade (Jul 24, 2006)

Wow, tied at 33 votes each. This poll is insane.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 24, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Goku, he can do everything the Flash can, plus more _
> 
> So, Goku can do everything that the Flash can, eh?
> 
> ...



Im going thru the chaps again to try and find times when he did. but as of now, you are correct.



> -travelled through time



Trunks has.  



> -think/compute at super-speed



Yes he can. See Vegetas fight verse Freiza.



> There are things that Goku can do that Flash can't, and vice-versa.
> 
> On Flash's side, he
> -can't fly
> ...


-self destruct
-energy shields
-Instant movement
-lock onto a ki
-and, my fav, Oozaru

Actually im curious bout the last one. Goku could just go SSJ3 than turn Oozaru. Would flash be able to hurt him?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 24, 2006)

That fight with Freiza was normal speed.

Freiza was just wrong about when the planet would explode.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 24, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That fight with Freiza was normal speed.
> 
> Freiza was just wrong about when the planet would explode.



WTF are you talking about?
Vegeta vs Freiza
Read the manga


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 24, 2006)

_Trunks has.  _

And so did Cell, but both didn't travel through time under their own power.

_Yes he can. See Vegetas fight verse Freiza._

If they have it at YouTube. . .

_-self destruct_

Reasonable.

_-energy shields_

Kiai's?

_-Instant movement
-lock onto a ki
-and, my fav, Oozaru_

True.

And there's the zenkai.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 24, 2006)

> That fight with Freiza was normal speed.
> 
> Freiza was just wrong about when the planet would explode.



It went over five minutes, yes but they were still fighting at an incredible scene, a lot of action happened in it showing that 5 minutes to them was more than 5 minutes for us somewhat. I think most people kinda gathered that.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 24, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> It went over five minutes, yes but they were still fighting at an incredible scene, a lot of action happened in it showing that 5 minutes to them was more than 5 minutes for us somewhat. I think most people kinda gathered that.


Yes, because five minutes in DBZ time equals several episodes in our time, right?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 24, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That fight with Freiza was normal speed.
> 
> Freiza was just wrong about when the planet would explode.



This is all baseless opinions again...

Damn, do I go with what was stated in the Manga and Anime, or do I go with your opinions, I will go with the Manga/Anime the fight was five minutes.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 24, 2006)

Left to right for these scans.


*Spoiler*: __ 









Mkay. Ki speed.


*Spoiler*: __ 









Thinking speed. and moving speed.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 24, 2006)

Great scans SSJKrillin. This battle was over a long time ago, Goku > > Flash.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 24, 2006)

I don't see anything.

Reupload them, if you can.

If the battle was over a long time ago, why are we still debating?

Because it's still undecided among us.


----------



## Maniac Killer (Jul 24, 2006)

*Spoiler*: __ 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFD0Sxp7pxc&search=Tom%20green%20%20%20bum%20bum


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jul 24, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Ki Speed. M'kay.



You're just the consumate moron, aren't you? First off, "I saw a little light!" isn't even on par with what people say about THE FLASH'S MOVING SPEED. Not only that, but we've been shown NUMEROUS, NUMEROUS TIMES that most ki blasts move slower than that, especially in ball or beam form.

The Flash could read a book in the time it took that thing to get there if Piccolo managed to see a little light. Hell, there isn't even anything to accurately measure how fast that could be. Please, don't try to post your crap and expect us to be impressed.



> Thinking speed. And moving speed.



Actually, dodging like that is more INSTINCTIVE than anything. Much like a Secret Service agent throwing himself in front of the President, there's no thought, just instinct and action. I mean, there's no advanced thought in what he just did, which is something the Flash can do. Vegeta can instinctively move fast, yes. Can he read and memorize entire books, and do complex thought in that time? Absolutely not. _That's_ what super-speed thinking is.

Not only that, there's no proof that he's still any faster than the Flash, whose current feats are either explained in multiples of the speed of light or him actually warping time around him to get the job done.

So uh, keep trying. And by the by, the "5 Minute" fight was not made like that to show how fast they were fighting, but rather because they had to stall while Toriyama was writing new manga. It's not meant to be a show of speed, nor should it be interpreted that way.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 24, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> You're just the consumate moron, aren't you? First off, "I saw a little light!" isn't even on par with what people say about THE FLASH'S MOVING SPEED. Not only that, but we've been shown NUMEROUS, NUMEROUS TIMES that most ki blasts move slower than that, especially in ball or beam form.
> 
> *Flash moving speed is not impressive unless he absorbs speed, or uses the treadmill. Please explain to me when you have seen Ki blasts move slow?*
> 
> ...



It is stated in the manga and anime that Goku and Freeza's entire fight only lasted less then 5 mintues, and as we all know, scenes are sometimes slown to see what's actually going on (which is how 5 mintues took over 2 hours).


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jul 24, 2006)

> Flash moving speed is not impressive unless he absorbs speed, or uses the treadmill. Please explain to me when you have seen Ki blasts move slow?



This ignores things that have been posted such as him going from Buenos Aires to Beijing in .003 seconds, or evacuating 500,000 people in under a second. Goku has done nothing even close to this with speed.



> If you do not know how fast it is, then do not say that Flash could dodge the beam. I have not seen the Flash dodge anything that fast.



You don't read too much Flash, obviously, and have a large reasoning failure as well. To move at speeds faster than light, one has to have reactions faster than the speed of light, otherwise it is impossible to do so. It still registered in Piccolo's eyes as light (He saw it, not sensed it). Flash could easily side-step that and nail Frieza before he put his finger down.



> Instincts/Reactions >>> Super-speed thinking. Reading and memorizing books can not help you in battle, this is not a reading contest.



Once again, you fail at this argument. The fact is that the Flash can read books at the speed DBZ fighters reserve for their instincts. His thought processes are far faster than those of DBZ fighters, and his reaction and instinctive movements even more so.



> Wrong. Flash is not going that fast without help, Otherwise he would not be koed by characters slower than him.



Wrong. Again, every time Flash gets trounced by his rogues, it's because he's caught in some sort of trap. If we are pulling out the stops on the Flash's speed and fighting in a barren wasteland as is normal for DBZ fights, then Flash can go as fast as he wants without worrying about Sonic Booms and such. Considering that Goku has yet to break the sound barrier with his battle speed, he's completely screwed.



> It is stated in the manga and anime that Goku and Freeza's entire fight only lasted less then 5 mintues, and as we all know, scenes are sometimes slown to see what's actually going on (which is how 5 mintues took over 2 hours).



This is in direct contradiction to both the anime and the manga. Frieza states that he was wrong in his initial prediction, and then revises it saying that the planet still doesn't have too long before it explodes. It obviously took more than 5 minutes. In the manga, the fight doesn't last even a quarter of what the anime fight is, and the anime fight was lengthened not for story purposes but for animating purposes. That fight isn't at super speed in the anime as well, because there are people like Gohan on planet who has no reason to move at superspeed the entire time.


----------



## SoulTaker (Jul 24, 2006)

And if the Flash didn't have super-speed thinking he wouldn't be able to change directions.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 24, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> This ignores things that have been posted such as him going from Buenos Aires to Beijing in .003 seconds, or evacuating 500,000 people in under a second. Goku has done nothing even close to this with speed.
> 
> *Goku's speed is demonstrated in battle. Asking for feats from a show based on mostly martial arts is the dumbest thing ever. *
> 
> ...



Where did Freiza state that he was wrong in his prediction?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

> Goku's speed is demonstrated in battle. Asking for feats from a show based on mostly martial arts is the dumbest thing ever



So you admit you have no feats?

Good.

You lose.



> I read alot of Flash comics and own some. You obviously do not know much do you? Traveling speed is different form reaction speed. One could move fast distance wise and not have great lateral movement. In the Flash's case he suffers from lack of combat reflexes otherwise he would not be hit by Kadabra's lighting bolts.



Magic lightning bolts =/= normal lightning bolts. Honestly.



> Oh really? Is that why his ass tagged or even tripped in battle by characters much slower than him. I did not see those super fast thinking then.



Mental blocks + preptime + worrying about collateral damage.


> Flash had all the room in the world against Kadabra and Zoom(even absorbed speed). I did not see him worrying about Sonic Booms against them yet he still got his ass tagged. I am sure Toriyama was thinking of Sonic Booms when Goku moved Faster than lightning during the training with Mr. Popo.



Zoom and Flash don't make sonic booms unless they want to due to the nature of their powers. And it doesn't matter what the author thinks, what matters is what happened.




> Where did Freiza state that he was wrong in his prediction?



"Darn, I held back too much!" etc.


----------



## Reznor (Jul 25, 2006)

Actually, we know that at least Picollo can think at least 365.25 times faster due to him telepathically speaking normally from outside to the people inside the Time Chamber.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 25, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> So you admit you have no feats?
> 
> Good.
> 
> ...



That was when he tried to blow up the planet and Freiza stated that he lost alot of energy because of Goku. So then Freiza stated five minutes Namek will be destroyed. It was a five minute battle at Super Speed.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jul 25, 2006)

God, so much wrong with Phenom's post. I'll be brief:

Kadabra's Lightning Bolts aren't actually magic nor lightning bolts. It's future tech FAR in advance from anything we have. To say that it's normal is a huge mistake. And again, whenever one of the Flash's rogues catches him, it's always in some massive, well-planned trap. You really don't know too much about the Rogues, do you?

Zoom catching Flash is nothing special. Zoom is literally beyond speed, as control over time. If utilized to its fullest potential, his power is beyond broken. I doubt you would understand that, though. Zoom would pulverize Goku into dust.

You're _sure_ he was thinking it? Then why not put them in? We never hear a sonic boom when he uses Zanzoken, not once.

Let me explain how "Reaction speed" is faster than "Travelling Speed": It has to be to travel so fast. If one can't react at faster than light speeds, then he can't travel at Light Speed because he'll simply crash. Flash has a mastery over travelling around, at, and past light speed. He can control EXACTLY where he wants to go and what he wants to do inbetween. If he couldn't react at far beyond lightspeed, he couldn't travel that fast because he couldn't control it. Please, stop being a moron and get with the program. You still have yet to show anything even comparable to the Flash's speed.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 25, 2006)

_If utilized to its fullest potential, his power is beyond broken._

Got to love chronokinesis. . .


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jul 25, 2006)

In-fucking-deed. Talk about figuring out an interesting way to overpower one's villains.


----------



## konflikti (Jul 25, 2006)

Oh, about the Goku finding Flash ki...


----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 25, 2006)

@ konflikti:  Just a small possible flaw in your evidence.  Goku was trying to find Bulma's ki among that of Earth's entire population.  If this fight takes place in a neutral arena with no bystanders, Goku might have an easier time, since Flash's ki will be the only ki besides his own.

Just thought I'd point it out.  Though it can be said that the idea of Goku using shunkan idou in less time than it takes for the Flash to blow him apart, or send him to the end of the universe, is laughable.


----------



## konflikti (Jul 25, 2006)

Yes, that's true. I was just wanting to disprove all this "Goku can do it in instant with no problem." lines.


----------



## Furious George (Jul 26, 2006)

Pssshh. Goku.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 26, 2006)

^ Reason or reasons being?


----------



## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

Just a side question which of the Flash's were the fastest.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 like recently i saw some shit about Bart having more speed than all the flash's combined.







This doesn't have much to do with the debate i was just curious.


----------



## Gooba (Jul 26, 2006)

Going by the anime DBZ characters move much faster than anyone.  It took about 10 30 DBZ-minute episodes to live out 5 minutes of real time.  That is crazy because that is just their resting speed, they _sit _60 times faster than us! Imagine how fast they can run!

Also, Goku wins if he can find a pointy stick and point it backwards, because the Flash will impale himself on it.

Oh, seriously I think Flash wins.  If he can't think and react at the lightspeeds he runs he would stop in cracks/rocks or just run into walls.  He can vibrate so fast Goku couldn't touch him, then hit him with infinite mass.


----------



## Furious George (Jul 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> ^ Reason or reasons being?



*actually reads some of the posts here* 

Hmmm.... maybe I was wrong. Oh well, I casted my vote already. Nothing I can do about it now!


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Jul 26, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Just a side question which of the Flash's were the fastest.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Bart Allen (Impulse) has always been said to have the potential to be the greatest/fastest Flash ever, even by Wally himself. Thats what I believe Wally was talking about. Bart just needs to refine his power and he can easily be the greatest.

However, Wally could have been talking about the fact that Bart now has the entire Speed Force resting inside of him


----------



## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

^^^^ Thanks, i didn't really know that.  It will be intresting to see the way in which he uses it now, it is cool for me as i have a starting place that i would be familiar with. 

____________

Back on the topic if Flash went all out i beleive he would win to be honest, he could keep vibrating and vibrating through Goku untill he dies, that depends if he can clip him before he reaches the air.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 26, 2006)

In addition, Kid Flash will also learn the 'stealing kinetic speed' thing. His future self manage to steal speed from him just by mere eye contact.

In addition, Bart has a photographic memory.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

For the last time, that fight did not take 5 minutes.

Just because Freiza says it would take 5 minutes doesn't mean he was right.

Not everything a character says is absolutely right.

Or else Freiza would have been telling the truth when he said that Goku couldn't defeat him.

Besides, Frieza himself admitted that he miscalculated and it would take longer.

Not to mention the fight was much shorter in the manga, which is higher canon.

Even if you ignore all of that, you would also have to believe that:

- The clouds were moving at super speed

- The lava was erupting at super speed

- The water and waves were moving at super speed

- All the background characters, including Bulma, were moving at super speed.

- People were talking at super speed.

etc.

This is one of the most annoying DBZ - fan fallacies ever since it is so obviously untrue but they still cling to it and never let go.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

^^^^ Yeh that is pretty cool, he can process infomation mega fast and it would stay in his head somewhat.

Endless Mike the planet blew in about 8 minutes i would say 15 minutes tops, lava moving etc was PIS, i doubt they could bebothered slowing down the motion of everything it subtracts from the tension also.


----------



## Gooba (Jul 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> For the last time, that fight did not take 5 minutes.
> 
> Just because Freiza says it would take 5 minutes doesn't mean he was right.
> 
> ...


Wow, that one went right over your head.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 26, 2006)

_^^^^ Yeh that is pretty cool, he can process infomation mega fast and it would stay in his head somewhat._

Also note, when Kid Flash finally comes out of the library, he said he spent a relative year in the library reading at super-speed.

A few seconds to Robin, Superboy, Wonder Girl = Kid Flash reading every book in the library in a relative year.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

PIS is a poor man's excuse.

We don't use that rule here.

If all evidence points to the fact that they weren't moving at super speed, then that means they weren't moving at super speed.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 26, 2006)

_PIS is a poor man's excuse._

Well. . . there's Squirrel Girl defeating Thanos and Doom. . .


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

That's because Squirrel Girl is an unstoppable force of nature, obviously.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

> PIS is a poor mans excuse.
> 
> We don't use that rule here.
> 
> If all evidence points to the fact that they weren't moving at super speed, then that means they weren't moving at super speed.



No it isn't people use it all the time to explain random screw ups, the dbz fight and Freeza can be explained as PIS in the sense that they were moving much faster than their surrondings if they moved by our time, you can say it is not PIS and everything there moves at a hyper speed, eitherway it doesn't equal the characters moving at our speeds as they move much higher than that.

Evidence doesn't point towards that we know they move faster than the human eye as people can barely see them back in the dbz days. Either shit on Namek moved faster or it is PIS.


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 26, 2006)

I guess Deathstroke beating Flash is valid then. Jobbing is basically plot induced stupidity.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _PIS is a poor man's excuse._
> 
> Well. . . there's Squirrel Girl defeating Thanos and Doom. . .


Now that's just fucking dandy.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

Of course it's valid, because Deathstroke had tons of information on him, lots of one - sided prep, and Flash was holding back because it was in the middle of a city.


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 26, 2006)

One Sided Prep? He made a few explosions and then had and waited for Flash to impale himself? Hardly that impressive for the oh so "you're all statues to me" flash.

Deathstroke did nothing Goku couldn't.

Also, what about Green Lantern in that scene? Is that valid for debate?

Like I said, jobbing is basically plot induced stupidity.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> No it isn't people use it all the time to explain random screw ups, the dbz fight and Freeza can be explained as PIS in the sense that they were moving much faster than their surrondings if they moved by our time, you can say it is not PIS and everything there moves at a hyper speed, eitherway it doesn't equal the characters moving at our speeds as they move much higher than that.
> 
> Evidence doesn't point towards that we know they move faster than the human eye as people can barely see them back in the dbz days. Either shit on Namek moved faster or it is PIS.



The much simpler explanation is that FREIZA WAS WRONG.

He even stated he was wrong!

How hard is this for you to get?

You can't just make up an interpretation of a scene that runs contrary to everything that actually happened and then declare that all the actual evidence doesn't count because of 'PIS'.

Otherwise I could say that the Flash is always moving a million billion trillion times the speed of light and everything that indicates he's not is just PIS.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

Delta Shell said:
			
		

> Deathstroke did nothing Goku couldn't.
> 
> What about Green Lantern?



He extensively studied his opponent and came up with a complicated strategy involving a trap and prep - time.

I would say Goku couldn't do that.

And Kyle was just being a moron.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

> The much simpler explanation is that FREIZA WAS WRONG.
> 
> He even stated he was wrong!
> 
> How hard is this for you to get?



It didn't take 5 minutes but it didn't take an hour is what i am saying, the characters moved at high speeds that time as they acomplished much in a short time of space eitherway.



> You can't just make up an interpretation of a scene that runs contrary to everything that actually happened and then declare that all the actual evidence doesn't count because of 'PIS'.



Huh i think people in general know dbz characters move faster than our eye's so them moving a long speed with Lava says PIS or the lava was moving at a high speed also.


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 26, 2006)

> One Sided Prep? He made a few explosions and then had and waited for Flash to impale himself? Hardly that impressive for the oh so "you're all statues to me" flash.
> 
> Jobbing is basically Plot Induced Stupidity.



What I said above.


So we don't count for jobbing either? It's basically the same thing, kyle going to punch someone is a ridiculously badly written scene and is jobbing along the lines of Apocalypse dodging a coffee table.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> It didn't take 5 minutes but it didn't take an hour is what i am saying, the characters moved at high speeds that time as they acomplished much in a short time of space eitherway.



In the anime, it took as long as it was shown to take. There is no evidence otherwise.

In the manga, it took a shorter amount of time.

50% of that fight was filler anyway.



> Huh i think people in general know dbz characters move faster than our eye's so them moving a long speed with Lava says PIS or the lava was moving at a high speed also.



Well yeah, when they're doing zanzoken or zipping around, but when they stay in the same place and talk or exchange punches they can easily be seen. You can't just ignore evidence that works against you and label it 'PIS'.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

Delta Shell said:
			
		

> What I said above.
> 
> 
> So we don't count for jobbing either? It's basically the same thing, kyle going to punch someone is a ridiculously badly written scene and is jobbing along the lines of Apocalypse dodging a coffee table.



If a character makes a poor tactical decision, that doesn't mean they couldn't have done better, it means they screwed up.


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 26, 2006)

The point is Deathstroke should be a statue to the Flash who can vibrate the moment he feels a bullet touch his skin, you telling me he's going to run into a sword that's poking out?

I mean, what about Hulk being Ko'ed by Spiderman? That was most certainly PIS/jobbing (same thing really), what about Superman going all out on Batman but Batman surviving?


----------



## Gooba (Jul 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Of course it's valid, because Deathstroke had tons of information on him, lots of one - sided prep, and Flash was holding back because it was in the middle of a city.


No amount of prep or holding back was involved in that.  He held his sword out backwards and the Flash ran straight into it.  There is no excuse except jobbing.  He doesn't run chest-first into walls as he runs.  What was his plan? Chest-butt Deathstroke instead of punching him?  If PIS wasn't involved he would have just avoided the sword, or swung a punch from further away than the sword could reach.

I am surprised anyone took anything I said in my post before "Oh, seriously," seriously.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 26, 2006)

I didn't but that's because i'm ridiculously awesome.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

Okay, let me explain this.

There's no such thing as PIS.

However, there are such things as low showings and high showings.

We just don't need to make some up some magical logic - defying term to explain them, especially when said term can easily be abused to draw conclusions that are in no way supported by the source material, as gunners was doing.


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

> There's no such thing as PIS.



Yes there is such a thing called Plot induced stupidity, if it doesn't exist in dbz the lava was moving at a mega high speed also.

It happens all the time.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 26, 2006)

> There's no such thing as PIS.
> 
> However, there are such things as low showings and high showings.



Plot Induced Stupidity is definately applicable to some low and high showings. There's a difference between a low or high showing and one that is completely impossible for a character. 

Flash jobbed for the sake of the plot.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

Doesn't work if you want objective conclusions, because out of universe stuff is subjective.

And if all signs point to the fact that they weren't moving that fast, then THEY WEREN'T MOVING THAT FAST.

You can't just ignore tons of evidence against you because you want it to be one way.


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

> Doesn't work if you want objective conclusions, because out of universe stuff is subjective.
> 
> And if all signs point to the fact that they weren't moving that fast, then THEY WEREN'T MOVING THAT FAST.
> 
> You can't just ignore tons of evidence against you because you want it to be one way.



Everyone knows DBZ characters move faster than our eye, so if they are moving at a level speed with something we can see, it is PIS or we would be unable to see it in their universe.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

They only do that for short bursts and long fights, in many DBZ fights we can see the vanish with zanzoken or dart around but we can also see them stand still and exchange blows.

They are not invisible for the duration of the whole fight.


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

> They only do that for short bursts and long fights, in many DBZ fights we can see the vanish with zanzoken or dart around but we can also see them stand still and exchange blows.
> 
> They are not invisible for the duration of the whole fight.



Answer this question, how much of an action manga would it be if we didn't actually see what was going on, they slow things down to suit our perspective though in reality it is a lot faster than anything we can see.

I think an example would be Yamcha vs a Saibaman, though that could be anime i think it was in the manga also i might check into it later.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 26, 2006)

So Mike, you _do_ agree that PIS/Jobbing are valid reasons to diregard silly things in a debate don't you?

(Forget about _this_ particular instance i'm talking about in general).


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 26, 2006)

_What about Green Lantern?

And Kyle was just being a moron._

Bingo.

You're one of the most versatile and key character in the JLA thanks to the ring, and what do you do when you see Deathstroke giong through each of your team members?

You wait till they're ALL down, and then swing at him. A ring that can do wonders against the opponent, and you punch a guy who's arguably Batman's superior.

Really. That's just bloody brilliant. . .

The only thing that redeemed the blunder that was Identity Crisis by Brad was his JLA#0 so far.


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## Tsukiyomi (Jul 26, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Everyone knows DBZ characters move faster than our eye, so if they are moving at a level speed with something we can see, it is PIS or we would be unable to see it in their universe.



The human eye when you get right down to it isn't really that fast.  The Flash is fast enough to sit there and put a jig-saw puzzle together, solve a rubicks cube, drink a coke and run off before your eye can register that he was there.

DBZ characters are fast, but from what we've seen their speed doesn't even begin to compare to the Flash.

I don't have time to scan through the thread, did we ever establish which version of the Flash he's fighting?  Because if its KC flash then there really isn't any contest.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Answer this question, how much of an action manga would it be if we didn't actually see what was going on, they slow things down to suit our perspective though in reality it is a lot faster than anything we can see.
> 
> I think an example would be Yamcha vs a Saibaman, though that could be anime i think it was in the manga also i might check into it later.


You're operating under a false premise.

They can move too fast to be seen, but there are many parts in any random DBZ battle where they don't.



			
				Delta Shell said:
			
		

> So Mike, you _do_ agree that PIS/Jobbing are valid reasons to diregard silly things in a debate don't you?
> 
> (Forget about _this_ particular instance i'm talking about in general).


It depends.

What is NOT acceptable is to say things like "Goku and Freiza were moving so fast they their fight only took 5 minutes but looked like it took 10 hours based only on one comment from Freiza, who later admitted he was wrong, and most of the fight in the anime was filler anyway, and even in the anime everything and everyone else were all moving at the same speed and there was no evidence of any time dilation effect going on, but that all should be ignored because it's PIS".


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> The much simpler explanation is that FREIZA WAS WRONG.
> 
> He even stated he was wrong!
> 
> How hard is this for you to get?



WTF are you talking about? Provide the scan please.

EDIT: Or tell me where it is and I will provide it.



> You can't just make up an interpretation of a scene that runs contrary to everything that actually happened and then declare that all the actual evidence doesn't count because of 'PIS'.



You need to read the manga dude. You get a good picture of the speed progression. The manga provides many proofs that they are moving much faster than what you are claiming they are. One or two scenes done for dramatics doesnt mean they are slow.


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## Tsukiyomi (Jul 26, 2006)

Mike, please try not to double post, use the edit button.



			
				SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> You need to read the manga dude. You get a good picture of the speed progression. The manga provides many proofs that they are moving much faster than what you are claiming they are. One or two scenes done for dramatics doesnt mean they are slow.



Thats not how a debate works, if you have proof, then you bring it.  Don't just sit there "read the manga".  For all you know he's read it more than you have, if you have proof then provide a scan or go away.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

I never said they were slow.

I merely am claiming that there is no evidence that that whole battle took place in just 5 minutes, and there is tons of evidence against it.

And I don't know where to get the manga (I don't have access to it at this point, I've only read copies of it), but Freiza said something along the lines of 'Darn! I held back too much! The planet won't explode as soon"


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 26, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:
			
		

> Mike, please try not to double post, use the edit button.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats not how a debate works, if you have proof, then you bring it.  Don't just sit there "read the manga".  For all you know he's read it more than you have, if you have proof then provide a scan or go away.



Mike brings up points from non-canon sources, and keeps saying that Frieza said he was wrong about the 5 minutes.
I.E. He has no proof. Im telling him to read the manga/canon, to avoid events like these. Savy?

BTW posting the Frieza/Goku fight would be a pain caus its a 'couple' chaps long.


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## Tsukiyomi (Jul 26, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Mike brings up points from non-canon sources, and keeps saying that Frieza said he was wrong about the 5 minutes.
> I.E. He has no proof. Im telling him to read the manga/canon, to avoid events like these. Savy?
> 
> BTW posting the Frieza/Goku fight would be a pain caus its a 'couple' chaps long.



Then just post the parts that prove you're right, post scans of them moving at that speed and post Freiza's statement.  If he has something to counter he can post it, otherwise you win.

The argument "read the manga", is essentially "go find my proof for me" and it doesn't fly in any debate.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

I'm telling you I don't have it with me.

If you have it, you could easily check it by just looking through the manga.

It's somewhere after Freiza tried to destroy the planet.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I never said they were slow.
> 
> I merely am claiming that there is no evidence that that whole battle took place in just 5 minutes, and there is tons of evidence against it.



Such as? Events were happening similtaneously. On top of that, Characters remark on how much time is left (2mins etc).



> And I don't know where to get the manga (I don't have access to it at this point, I've only read copies of it), but Freiza said something along the lines of 'Darn! I held back too much! The planet won't explode as soon"



Aite in that case heres what happened.

Frieza fires blast at Namek.
Everyone freaks.
Cut to King Kai saying namek is destroyed.
Kami corrects him and says it still there.
Frieza says he didnt use enough power.
Goku talks bout Frieza being afraid.
Frieza says he missed on purpose, caus he didnt want to destroy namek in one attack.
Then he states the planet will destruct in 5 mins.




			
				Tsukiyomi said:
			
		

> Then just post the parts that prove you're right, post scans of them moving at that speed and post Freiza's statement.  If he has something to counter he can post it, otherwise you win.
> 
> The argument "read the manga", is essentially "go find my proof for me" and it doesn't fly in any debate.



He barely recalled the battle. But he posted, and people believed him.
Read the manga wasnt an argument. I asked him to post scans (found out he didnt have them). I was curious to whether i missed something.
'Read the manga' was so that we dont have other bogus statements that other people will take as real.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

He was obviously wrong.

You do realize that in the anime, 90% of that fight was filler?

And everything else was moving at normal speed, even the background characters like Bulma.

ALL THE EVIDENCE IS AGAINST YOU.


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## Tsukiyomi (Jul 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I'm telling you I don't have it with me.
> 
> If you have it, you could easily check it by just looking through the manga.
> 
> It's somewhere after Freiza tried to destroy the planet.



Fine, then just post it when you have it.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He was obviously wrong.



How come?



> You do realize that in the anime, 90% of that fight was filler?



Im not talking about the anime. Im dealing with the manga. Something you are not.



> And everything else was moving at normal speed, even the background characters like Bulma.



This is why you need to read the manga. Bulma is only seen flying with gohan, while Goku and Freiza are not fighting (they are talking). Man, you have no proof.



> ALL THE EVIDENCE IS AGAINST YOU.



What evidence would that be?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

The problem is I don't know where to get it online, and I can't scan it from a book since I don't have a scanner.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> The problem is I don't know where to get it online, and I can't scan it from a book since I don't have a scanner.



Kay. Since you have the book. Tell me the volume/chap/page and i'll post it.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> How come?



Because it took longer than 5 minutes?



> Im not talking about the anime. Im dealing with the manga. Something you are not.



In the manga the fight was shorter.



> This is why you need to read the manga. Bulma is only seen flying with gohan, while Goku and Freiza are not fighting (they are talking). Man, you have no proof.



And according to you, they were talking at super speed. 



> What evidence would that be?



The fact that everything else was moving at normal speed?

Listen, when a character says something, and the visuals clearly show something else, a normal person assumes the character was wrong.

A DBZ fan, on the other hand, makes up bullshit rationalizations for why the character was right and the actual reality of events was wrong.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Kay. Since you have the book. Tell me the volume/chap/page and i'll post it.



I don't have the books, I already told you I just read copies of them. I don't own them.

I could go out to the store tomorrow and find it though.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Because it took longer than 5 minutes?



No it didnt. Where is your proof of this?



> In the manga the fight was shorter.



mkay?



> And according to you, they were talking at super speed.



I forgot which post i said this in.




> The fact that everything else was moving at normal speed?



What because they are moving at superspped everyone else has to be? They were talking at normal speed anyways, and everyone else was moving at their own respective levels. Also events were occuring at the same time.



> Listen, when a character says something, and the visuals clearly show something else, a normal person assumes the character was wrong.



Which visuals? A lightning bolt hitting a cliff when they are standing facing each other?
Gimmie your arguments so i can counter them.



> A DBZ fan, on the other hand, makes up bullshit rationalizations for why the character was right and the actual reality of events was wrong.



As oppose to others, who talk out of their asses, and doesnt have any back for their arguments?


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

> The human eye when you get right down to it isn't really that fast. The Flash is fast enough to sit there and put a jig-saw puzzle together, solve a rubicks cube, drink a coke and run off before your eye can register that he was there.



It wasn't an arguement to prove dbz characters moving as fast as the flash it was an arguement to prove lava moving with them as PIS.

I know the Flash is in a diffrent league compared to DBZ characters, i was sub tracking from the topic a little well not really as he is making them out to move as slow as lava when they are most likely above lava as we are able to see it.


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## Reznor (Jul 26, 2006)

> Everyone knows DBZ characters move faster than our eye, so if they are moving at a level speed with something we can see, it is PIS or we would be unable to see it in their universe.


 Actually, they fought faster than even Gohan could see in the Vegeta Saga.

Speeds obviously increase. It just _shows it_ at a viewable speed.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> No it didnt. Where is your proof of this?



They can't exactly have multiple episodes in 5 minutes.



> I forgot which post i said this in.



You're arguing that everything that happened in the fight after Freiza tried to destroy the planet happened at super speed.



> What because they are moving at superspped everyone else has to be? They were talking at normal speed anyways, and everyone else was moving at their own respective levels. Also events were occuring at the same time.



That doesn't even make sense. If all that background atmospheric effects are happening at normal speed, all the other characters are doing stuff at normal speed, etc. then a bunch of episodes aren't compressed into 5 minutes.



> Which visuals? A lightning bolt hitting a cliff when they are standing facing each other?
> Gimmie your arguments so i can counter them.



Wind is moving at normal speed, blowing their faces and the waves. Water is moving at normal speed. Lava is erupting at normal speed. Bulma and Gohan and Picollo, etc. are all moving at normal speed.



> As oppose to others, who talk out of their asses, and doesnt have any back for their arguments?



You're just ignoring my evidence.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> It wasn't an arguement to prove dbz characters moving as fast as the flash it was an arguement to prove lava moving with them as PIS.
> 
> I know the Flash is in a diffrent league compared to DBZ characters, i was sub tracking from the topic a little well not really as he is making them out to move as slow as lava when they are most likely above lava as we are able to see it.



Lava doesn't magically move at super speed for no reason.

What it means is that what we saw was happening in real time.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> They can't exactly have multiple episodes in 5 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOLOLOL your evidence? A bunch of crap from the anime?
Sorry if im not impressed.
Im not saying everything happened at super speed at all. The fighting did. The pauses were in real time. The time frame works perfectly in the manga.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

The 'pauses' if you include all the dialogue took at least 5 minutes.

The fight itself took, in the anime, over an hour. Freiza was just wrong.

In the manga you could make a case for it to be shorter, but it was definitely longer than 5 minutes.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 26, 2006)

Wait, I just realised we were arguing about the anime..

_Why_? Fillerisation isn't canon folks..


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Lava doesn't magically move at super speed for no reason.
> 
> What it means is that what we saw was happening in real time.



There is no lava.


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## Reznor (Jul 26, 2006)

> There is no lava.


*sees lava*
*sees past lava and sees code, a la matrix style*


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> The 'pauses' if you include all the dialogue took at least 5 minutes.
> 
> The fight itself took, in the anime, over an hour. Freiza was just wrong.
> 
> In the manga you could make a case for it to be shorter, but it was definitely longer than 5 minutes.



No it wasnt. Everything works in time. They even state at one point that theres only 2 minutes till the planet explodes (half way through Frieza firing his blast, and namek being destroyed).

and STOP using the anime as a base for your arguments.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

If Freiza was wrong the first time, why couldn't he be wrong a second time?

The fact is that since everything else was moving at normal speed, the fight happened in real time, and took longer than 5 minutes.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> If Freiza was wrong the first time, why couldn't he be wrong a second time?
> 
> The fact is that since everything else was moving at normal speed, the fight happened in real time, and took longer than 5 minutes.



What first time?
and
The only times you see other people, is when Goku and/or Freiza are talking and NOT fighting. How hard is that to understand?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

And there's no way they could have talked so much and still finished the fight in under 5 minutes. Stuff in the background was still moving, too.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And there's no way they could have talked so much and still finished the fight in under 5 minutes. Stuff in the background was still moving, too.



Not as much talking in the manga. Events and talks happen at the same time (as shown with Kami and the dragonballs). Stuff in the background (like lightning) happens when they are not fighting.


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

> Lava doesn't magically move at super speed for no reason.
> 
> What it means is that what we saw was happening in real time.



No it is either PIS or lava moving at a high speed as we would not have been able to see that fight. Personally i go with PIS but you can choose Lava moving at a higher speed seeing as it is the dbz verse, we have seen normal humans unable to see them, lava is something humans would see, the skip from which normal humans could see them is quite large, so i am willing to bet PIS is the case for lava moving with them.


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## Gooba (Jul 26, 2006)

This entire arguement is because of a joke I made, how silly.


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## Reznor (Jul 26, 2006)

Flash v. Goku isn't worth arguing.
The differences are made clear, and we know how it will go. Power scaling isn't needed. It's Flash, IMO.

I'm not a DC > DBZ proponent, but Goku is at a definite disadvantage against Flash.


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## Dark Evangel (Jul 27, 2006)

I wish a mod can made the poll in public since there are people who are trying to cheat in the poll.


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## Tsukiyomi (Jul 27, 2006)

Reznor said:
			
		

> I'm not a DC > DBZ proponent, but Goku is at a definite disadvantage against Flash.



I'm still unclear on how people can think the DBZ universe is stronger than the DC and marvel universes which have beings who can destroy universes with a thought.



			
				Leaf_Jutsu said:
			
		

> I wish a mod can made the poll in public since there are people who are trying to cheat in the poll.



Cheat?  How so?


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 27, 2006)

_I'm still unclear on how people can think the DBZ universe is stronger than the DC and marvel universes which have beings who can destroy universes with a thought._

Some beings can destroy the universe in comicdom, although they are very, very few.

When people take the universes into account, they either leave out the cosmics or never knew about them in the first place.

If it's entire universe vs. entire universe, Marvel and DC wins by a landslide.


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## Reznor (Jul 28, 2006)

> I'm still unclear on how people can think the DBZ universe is stronger than the DC and marvel universes which have beings who can destroy universes with a thought.


 I mean the notion that DC beats on just about every tier level.
Omnipotents and near omnipotents win - I leave them out of it.


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