# strongest ninja kisame w/hachibi chakra can beat?



## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Out of these ninja who can kisame beat

location: open field
distance: 25m
knowledge: none
restrictions: none

1) orochimaru- pt hashirama and tobirama
2) Muu
3) minato
4) itachi
5) killer bee
6) han(unrestricted gobi will pop out when needed)

Can he beat any of these guys?


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2015)

Kisame with Hachibi-Chakra likely beats all of these peeps. Minato is the only one I could see winning depending on whether Shiki Fuujin would work or if the Reaper would simply be absorbed. 


Orochimaru -All of Orochimaru's moves can be repelled by enormous suitons like 1,000 Feeding Sharks or tanked and regenerated through. He and the Edo's can't escape Kisame underwater and chakra absorption and drowning is a perfect means to take Orochimaru down. The biggest issue will be putting down the Edo's after Orochimaru is dealt with. Kisame hasn't shown any Fuuinjutsu or binding Jutsu, so I'm not sure how he would do it, but at worst it's a draw where Kisame absorbs their chakra perpetually and they recover perpetually. 

Mu - Daikodan trolls Jinton. Invisibility is an issue here, but it may not work with Samehada's ability to smell chakra and Kisame certainly has the AOE to take shots in the dark that still have a decent chance of landing. And even if Mu succeeds in his ambush Kisame will regenerate and take Mu out before he can go invisible again. 

Minato - Minato is one of Kisame's worst match ups because he can escape Kisame's AOE with S/T Jutsu and can use natural energy via SM to turn Kisame to stone. Minato wins, but likely with a considerable amount of difficulty.

Itachi - Sensing will allow Kisame to avoid most of what Itachi can throw at him. On the other hand Itachi doesn't really have a defense that will be able to overcome Kisame's massive Suitons when also dealing with having their chakra absorbed.

Killer-B - Depends on if Daikodan can absorb Hachibi's Max TBB

Han - Looses to Water-Dome and Chakra absorption.


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2015)

Without knowledge he'd lose to Minato or Itachi. _Possibly_ Mu. He'd beat B because canon, and he'd spank Han because B is a better version of Han. Orochimaru is tough. That could be its own thread, and I'm too tired to think about the match-up right now.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Kisame with Hachibi-Chakra likely beats all of these peeps. Minato is the only one I could see winning depending on whether Shiki Fuujin would work or if the Reaper would simply be absorbed.
> 
> 
> Orochimaru -All of Orochimaru's moves can be repelled by enormous suitons like 1,000 Feeding Sharks or tanked and regenerated through. He and the Edo's can't escape Kisame underwater and chakra absorption and drowning is a perfect means to take Orochimaru down. The biggest issue will be putting down the Edo's after Orochimaru is dealt with. Kisame hasn't shown any Fuuinjutsu or binding Jutsu, so I'm not sure how he would do it, but at worst it's a draw where Kisame absorbs their chakra perpetually and they recover perpetually.



find it odd that you actually post on my thread. yet if i quote you, you never respond? whats the deal?

orochimaru vs kisame- why cant orochimaru summon manda and simply sit in it? its a giant anaconda

its not about to drown, so kisame drainign its chakra has no effect on orochimaru. Now orochimaru could use this opportunity to strike at him with kusanagi, or simply barf out a punch of little snakes which will flood the area and bite and poison kisame. 

orochimaru easily deals with water dome. he would actually like it. it works for him



> Mu - Daikodan trolls Jinton. Invisibility is an issue here, but it may not work with Samehada's ability to smell chakra and Kisame certainly has the AOE to take shots in the dark that still have a decent chance of landing. And even if Mu succeeds in his ambush Kisame will regenerate and take Mu out before he can go invisible again.



why cant Muu go invisible and blind side with jinton. kisame isnt a sensor, so even if Muu appears behind him, kisame may not know. and from there its jinton GG

i still have my doubts that samehada can absorb jinton



> Minato - Minato is one of Kisame's worst match ups because he can escape Kisame's AOE with S/T Jutsu and can use natural energy via SM to turn Kisame to stone. Minato wins, but likely with a considerable amount of difficulty.



why assume kisame can barf a lake before minato gets to him. this is the same guy who got his marks close to juubi jins. kisame gets murked before he does anything



> Itachi - Sensing will allow Kisame to avoid most of what Itachi can throw at him. On the other hand Itachi doesn't really have a defense that will be able to overcome Kisame's massive Suitons when also dealing with having their chakra absorbed.



tskuyomi. kisame cant fight with his eyes closed 



> Killer-B - Depends on if Daikodan can absorb Hachibi's Max TBB



BD barrage 



> Han - Looses to Water-Dome and Chakra absorption.




agreed.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Without knowledge he'd lose to Minato or Itachi. _Possibly_ Mu. He'd beat B because canon, and he'd spank Han because B is a better version of Han. Orochimaru is tough. That could be its own thread, and I'm too tired to think about the match-up right now.



i dont see how it can be tough for orochimaru

water dome. oro floods the place with snakes, so now instead of kisame trolling he will be the one trying to not get bitting or stabbed via kusanagi 

also manda in water would be a nightmare, its fast on land and anaconda's are faster in water 

samehada cannot heal kisame if it doesnt absorb chakra. 

shinju tree couldnt absorb the chakra from orochimaru snake hands, unlikely kisame absorbs chakra from the snakes coming at him


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## Sadgoob (Jun 10, 2015)

I honestly don't think there's a huge difference between Kisame with Hachibi chakra and Kisame without Hachibi chakra. I feel people say that to cheapen Kisame's power. Kisame naturally has huge chakra. His 30% clone casually spawned an ocean in a desert.

You might as well say the same thing about Nagato, but you'd be wrong, because like Kisame, Nagato's chakra reserves are also vastly superhuman and the Hachibi's chakra was a boost to stamina, but not to ability (minus the healing his sickness.)​


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## Kai (Jun 10, 2015)

Strategoob is accurate on this one. Kisame requiring Hachibi chakra for big moves is just an unfounded assumption that can't be disproven. 

Read any translation when Sabu describes Samehada's ability. Samehada uses the stolen chakra to convert to Kisame's stamina and heal wounds. That's it. Nothing about enhanced power or speed is stated or shown, and Kisame remains comfortably familiar with the scale of *all* his techniques when he uses them against B.

Furthermore, using part 1 as an alibi for Kisame's increase in strength is a deadbeat fallacy when we know inflation is a culprit for almost all power discrepancies between Part 1 and Part 2.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 10, 2015)

Kisame is "Biju without a Tail" without any stolen chakra. That's why Samehada was his willing partner(until B). And that's why Neji compared his Shoten version to Kyubi Naruto. 
Kisame's fighting style - weaken enemies via chakra steal while still staying ~100% and without injuries due to stolen chakra. Not to steal chakra and fight at 200+ %. He'd obviously get some minor boosts after stealing Jin's chakra but nothing drastic/tier changing.


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## Umbrella (Jun 10, 2015)

vs Orochimaru
Kisame's best prospect is to continuously rip him apart with hundreds of sharks... which I'm not sure would work as Orochimaru may be able to evade them depending on how mobile snakes are in water, and he should be able to escape the waterdome with his leeching jutsu. Also I don't think regeneration will do much for Kisame if he gets bitten the shit out of by venomous snakes, which is what will happen if he tries to judo Orochimaru like he did B. Edo Tensei isn't really needed. Kokuangyo makes this a comical stomp. Orochimaru should win either way.

vs Mu
Kisame's path to victory here is Daikodan - it's large as it is and if amped up by absorbing Jinton it's likely to be too large for Mu to evade. Mu may get lucky and kill Kisame with a Jinton sweep before can conjure up enough water but Kisame should win most of the time. Unless Mu just kills him while invisible, but that doesn't seem IC.

vs Minato
Kisame needs to know he can't let Minato touch him to win. He'll have lost as soon as he's tagged. I don't think he can survive decapitation, and Minato will eventually try that.

vs Itachi
Genjutsu GG. He needs knowledge.

vs B
Happened in the manga. Kisame wins.

vs Han
Kisame already defeated a perfect Jinchuriki of a stronger Biju.
One who isn't in control of his weaker one shouldn't pose a problem.


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## Icegaze (Jun 10, 2015)

Umbrella said:


> vs Orochimaru
> Kisame's best prospect is to continuously rip him apart with hundreds of sharks... which I'm not sure would work as Orochimaru may be able to evade them depending on how mobile snakes are in water, and he should be able to escape the waterdome with his leeching jutsu. Also I don't think regeneration will do much for Kisame if he gets bitten the shit out of by venomous snakes, which is what will happen if he tries to judo Orochimaru like he did B. Edo Tensei isn't really needed. Kokuangyo makes this a comical stomp. Orochimaru should win either way.
> 
> vs Mu
> ...



so you think kisame can take out hachibi? who can spam BD?


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You might as well say the same thing about Nagato​



I'm almost certain that Edo Nagato did get more powerful after absorbing B's chakra.


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## Bonly (Jun 10, 2015)

I can only see Kisame beating Han more times then not but since we don't know to much about Han it's hard to say.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Without knowledge he'd lose to Minato or Itachi. _Possibly_ Mu. He'd beat B because canon, and he'd spank Han because B is a better version of Han. Orochimaru is tough. That could be its own thread, and I'm too tired to think about the match-up right now.



Say What?!

Bee only struggled because he had to protect Enka and Ponta. He couldnt enter bijuu mode because his comrades would have gotten caught in the cross fire. Then while he was stuck in water dome, he had to divert all his effort into saving them first. By that time, he had already lost a lot of chakra.

Unrestricted Bee should destroy kisame.


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2015)

Kai said:


> Strategoob is accurate on this one. Kisame requiring Hachibi chakra for big moves is just an unfounded assumption that can't be disproven.
> 
> Read any translation when Sabu describes Samehada's ability. Samehada uses the stolen chakra to convert to Kisame's stamina and heal wounds. That's it. Nothing about enhanced power or speed is stated or shown, and Kisame remains comfortably familiar with the scale of *all* his techniques when he uses them against B.
> 
> Furthermore, using part 1 as an alibi for Kisame's increase in strength is a deadbeat fallacy when we know inflation is a culprit for almost all power discrepancies between Part 1 and Part 2.



The manga blatantly says Kisame's power increases proportionally to the amount of chakra he's absorbed. And literally every single time in the manga someone has taken on Bijuu-Chakra their abilities have all drastically increased, yet for some unknown reason this doesn't apply to Kisame, even though that is exactly what was shown to happen in the manga, with Kisame going from someone who was stated to have trouble with P1-Kakashi and be drastically inferior to Jiraiya in Part I, to someone who struggled with Roshi in PII, to someone capable of keeping up with 7th-Gated Gai after absorbing Hachibi chakra. Not to mention Kisame coincides perfectly with the trope of leech and clearly designed to fall into that role.

Simply put ether you believe Kisame got stronger by absorbing chakra, I.E. the logical and supported explanation, or you can believe the Kisame who faced Gai would struggle with P1-Kakashi, I.E. the absurd explanation.


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Jun 10, 2015)

ARE WE IC OR BLOODLUSTED FOR FUCKS SAKE

IC KISAME IS GOING TO CQC INTO ALL OF THESE PEEPS AND GET BUTTFUCKED IN SOME MANNER

BLOODLUSTED KISAME PROBABLY SOLOS EVERYONE SAVE NON-JOBBING HACHIBI AND ARGUABLY ITACHI


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2015)

itachi never said kisame would struggle with part 1 kakashi. just that his big techniques will draw a crowd and it becomes a problem

itachi then said such methods don't apply to him since he is clearly above the 2 

however kisame by default is well above part 1 kakashi though absorbing chakra does make him stronger 

clearly and it does fit with his fighting style and role


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## ARGUS (Jun 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> 1) orochimaru- pt hashirama and tobirama


Kisame wins high dif 


> 2) Muu


All deopends on wheher samehada can absorb jinton before it turns him to dust, 
it most likely doesnt thogh so Muu wins this 


> 3) minato


Kisame probably wins since minato has no way of putting him down, and once he merges and catches him in the waterdome minato is as good as dead


> 4) itachi


Itachi wins mid diff at most 
Tsukuyomi one shots totsuka one shots 


> 5) killer bee


Once bee goes full hachibi, kisame gets pasted 


> 6) han(unrestricted gobi will pop out when needed)


Same as above, a full bijuu firing out TBBs is too much for kisame


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Kisame wins high dif



please explain how he wins. ive always been curious

water dome- manda or myriad of snakes ruins it for kisame. kisame will be faced against a wall of poison snakes he cannot absorb and cannot heal from them bitting him 

against manda its a giant anaconda in water. so manda would even be faster than usual. anaconda are faster in water, so kisame gotta deal with a fast aquatic poisoned animal not the best for him

daikodan- sanju rashomon

1000 sharks- sanju rashomon or yamata do the trick

samehada- kusanagi should cut it in half, if it damaged enma who is diamond hard 



> All deopends on wheher samehada can absorb jinton before it turns him to dust,
> it most likely doesnt thogh so Muu wins this



agreed 



> Kisame probably wins since minato has no way of putting him down, and once he merges and catches him in the waterdome minato is as good as dead



kunai to the neck should work. kisame cannot barf a lake or merge before minato gets to him

this is the same guy whose opening move is throw a kunai and hirashin to it. he could get his marks close to juubi jins. kisame cannot do any jutsu before minato closes the gap and from there its a simple win 



> Itachi wins mid diff at most
> Tsukuyomi one shots totsuka one shots



tskuyomi GG. agreed



> Once bee goes full hachibi, kisame gets pasted
> 
> Same as above, a full bijuu firing out TBBs is too much for kisame



agreed.


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## Bonly (Jun 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> with Kisame going from someone who was stated to have trouble with P1-Kakashi and be drastically inferior to Jiraiya in Part I
> 
> or you can believe the Kisame who faced Gai would struggle with P1-Kakashi, I.E. the absurd explanation.



Itachi Uchiha "*If you fight with only one person... this matter could quickly be resolved*, but... you're about to fight many shinobi's and that would take to long, more will come...

The bold seems like Kisame wouldn't have a problem with Kakashi by himself


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2015)

thank you bonly I have tried to explain that several times to him
wonder why he didn't get it


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## Joakim3 (Jun 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm almost certain that Edo Nagato did get more powerful after absorbing B's chakra.



Canonically, we have no idea what it did baring restoring his muscle mass and giving him a _smidge_ more mobility

Even if it did increase chakra levels....  when you consider just how much chakra even an _emaciated_ Nagato had..... and the fact Kisame has more chakra then him (something Nagato himself stated). Would one even notice said boost, unless you think a V2 cloak has the same chakra quantity as all of Nagato or Kisame's chakra reserves?


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## Rocky (Jun 13, 2015)

That was worded weird. Are you asking me if absorbing a v2 cloak would have made a difference in Kisame's power? If so, then yes, of course it would have. 

Even if Kisame does have more juice than Nagato (I'd like a link for that if you could, because I don't remember it), I don't see how that would make gaining even _more_ power on top of that irrelevant. 

I think there is supposed to be a pretty significant amount of chakra in those v2 shrouds if Sabu's _"he's containing the Hachibi's power in human form"_ comment is anything to go by.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 14, 2015)

What can't Kisame do without Hachibi chakra?

It put more gas in his tank. 

But he already has bijuu amounts of chakra.


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

I don't really know. But unless we just ignore the statements made in Part I about him being Part I Kakashi level and irrelevant to Jiraiya or Itachi, then it has to do alot.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 14, 2015)

Kisame says he heard Kakashi beat "little Zabuza" and is ready to mop the floor with Kakashi. Itachi says Kisame won't get away "scot-free" in a spar and that it'll take Kisame time to beat him.

Similarly. Kisame says he's "not sure" if he can take on a Sannin. Itachi's the one that replies that both of them together and more backup might not be able to. But _Itachi has reason to lie_.

Kishimoto went out of his way to say what a huge liar Itachi was, so when Itachi makes attacking Konoha heroes sound more perilous to Kisame in order to dissuade him from battle...

I mean shit, look at what a 30% Kisame did. He summoned an ocean, trapped Neji and Lee, and then beat down base Gai. So a _30%_ Kisame already massively outperformed Wave Kakashi.​


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

Even if all of that is correct, techniques like Daikodan & Waterdome are not irrelevant to Jiraiya and Itachi in my opinion.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I honestly don't think there's a huge difference between Kisame with Hachibi chakra and Kisame without Hachibi chakra. I feel people say that to cheapen Kisame's power. Kisame naturally has huge chakra. His 30% clone casually spawned an ocean in a desert.​




 This pretty much. Hachibi Chakra doesn't boost his capabilities, it's only converted to stamina and that was made clear during his fight with the Hachibi.​


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Even if all of that is correct, techniques like Daikodan & Waterdome are not irrelevant to Jiraiya and Itachi in my opinion.



not irrelevant but also wont do much to either 

water dome- jiriaya counters with toad gourd prison 
Daikodan- get on a toad and have it jump away that should do the trick 

waterdome- itachi caught in it, can still use genjutsu to laughably troll
daikodan- possibly yata mirror ( if a jutsu that negates elemental jutsu will troll one that absorbs jutsu to grow stronger) otherwise itachi can just ensure to beat kisame down before then 


kishi statement about kisame level by comparison to jiraiya and itachi hasn't changed 

What he said in part 1 was that kisame cannot 1 panel kakashi the way itachi can. and it would take time and the use of big techniques which is true. because till date kisame *CANNOT*  beat part 1 kakashi with just samehada 

I mean asuma bloody asuma discouraged kisame from a cqc battle 

part 2 kisame cannot beat part 1 kakashi without barfing out some sort of lake


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## Joakim3 (Jun 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That was worded weird. Are you asking me if absorbing a v2 cloak would have made a difference in Kisame's power? If so, then yes, of course it would have.
> 
> Even if Kisame does have more juice than Nagato (I'd like a link for that if you could, because I don't remember it), I don't see how that would make gaining even _more_ power on top of that irrelevant.
> 
> I think there is supposed to be a pretty significant amount of chakra in those v2 shrouds if Sabu's _"he's containing the Hachibi's power in human form"_ comment is anything to go by.



Kisame stated that absorbing V2 was would allow him to never tire... not get _stronger_

Nagato admitted that Kisame had an abnormal amounts of chakra relative to everyone else in Akatsuki. Even as arrogant as Nagato is/was he was still a very blunt person and I'd see no reason he'd lie about Kisame having the largest reserves

It's a significant amount of chakra to be controlled when compared to _normal_ people... I.e Kakashi or Itachi for instance. Chakra freaks like Kisame & Nagato have chakra capacities that rival or can be compared to full on Biju.


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

Itachi, "drop it...." "Kisame"

Itachi, "........... Honesty If you were to seriously compete with that man you'd only be sorry..."

Itachi, "It would take too much time and other shinobi would come running"

Kisame, "but..."

Itachi, "Don't loose sight of our mission....." 

Itachi, "Wouldn't you agree it would be wise to not bring about a situation such as a battle where you'd be wounded"


And this is not just my translation but NJT's as well:

"NJT,  142 page 6 お前が　その人とまともにやり合えば ただでは済まない・・・ If you fight seriously with him you won't be let off easy... *So in other words if Kisame fought then he wouldn't have an easy win since his opponet isn't an weak opponent.  まともに= seriously ただでは済まない= wouldn't g..."

The text clearly implies Kisame would have a tough time if he fought Kakashi, while Itachi on the other hand would deal with Kakashi easily. This places Kisame's strength more close to Kakashi, while placing Itachi's well above both of them. And no the lying to save Kakashi skin excuse doesn't fly because he was more than willing to let Kisame butcher Asuma.

This is further support in by Kisame's own statement about Jiraiya:

"ShounenSuki, Kisame:
「アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手でも私じゃあ 分かりませんよ?」
「次元が違う」
"You might be able to somehow defeat him, but me, well I don't know..."
"Our levels are too far apart""

And I agree with Shounensuki's translation. "次元" = "level", "違う" = differ. So I'd translate it as "our levels differ" But overall the sentiment remain the same.

Kisame is saying Itachi only might be able to do something about Jiraiya, while he doesn't even stand any chance. That places Kisame well bellow Jiraiya and Itachi.

DBII also places Itachi far above him, to the point where he's awe inspired by his abilities:

"For Akatsuki's mission, Kisame travels together with Itachi, but at times he
shows unexpected docileness towards him. Is it from loyalty to the organization
and comrades or is it from the fact that Itachi's power surpasses his own? Only
he himself knows the truth.

Picture: He shows a sense of awe for Itachi's ability"

Than to drive the point home even further. 

Kisame, "You wouldn't say such a thing if you knew this guy"
Kisame, "This Yonbi Jinchuuriki's Lava Release was no laughing matter"
Kisame, "You don't have first hand experience fighting him, so wouldn't you agree you don't understand the hardships I went through?"

Kisame here very clearly says that Roshi was a tough battle for him. Given what Roshi has displayed that's not anywhere near Itachi and Jiriaya.
--------

Bottom line is ether you believe that what Kisame displayed against B and Gai after absorbing Hachibi chakra is insignificant in the face of Jiraiya and Itachi's strength, and that someone with those abilities would struggle with Roshi and P1-Kakashi, or you can believe that Kisame became more powerful from absorbing chakra. It's up to you, but the latter is at least a defensible position with contextual support as Kisame says he becomes stronger relative to the amount of chakra he absorbs. While the former is just utterly silly.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 14, 2015)

Feats>>>>>>>>>>>hype>>>>>>>>everything else.

If feats suggest something then thats that. If a charcter barley has any feats then we can go off hype and other stuff like databooks charcter interactions blah blah.

Kisame can potentially beat anybody his feats suggest he can regardless of what anything else says.

Also the conversation also implies kisame can defeat Kakashi and the others just not quickly and without potential injury.


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2015)

well kisame did say the stronger my enemy the stronger I become

being pushed back by asuma also goes to show without absorbing chakra kisame is very clearly well below the likes of jiriaya and itachi who could never loose out in a cqc encounter against asuma or even draw

the face asuma in cqc and win in 5 seconds


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Feats>>>>>>>>>>>hype>>>>>>>>everything else.



It's more like feats ≥ hype. Portrayal of the character should be used to determine what level he or she operates on, and then you go to feats to analyse the match up.


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## Six (Jun 14, 2015)

Kisame is a beast and one of the few gems of this series.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It's more like feats ≥ hype. Portrayal of the character should be used to determine what level he or she operates on, and then you go to feats to analyse the match up.



P1 Kakashi was not considered a rival to bijuu like Kisame.

P1 Kakashi did not look down on Zabuza as a kiddie like Kisame.

P1 Kakashi would not beat down p2 Lee, p2 Neji, and base Gai like 30% Kisame.

P1 Kakashi would stand _zero_ chance capturing Bee.

P2 Asuma said all Akatsuki were completely out of his league.

P2 Jiraiya compared himself to typical Akatsuki members in Suna.

P1 Jiraiya introduced Akatsuki as all Kage-class criminals like Oro.

You've got the known liar Itachi framing Kisame as less, _and that's it_.

He said those things so he could lead, and minimize damage to Konoha.


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

I'm fine with Itachi's comment being a lie (though it wasn't a very good one).

I don't know why Kisame would lie about being "too far" from Jiraiya. Turrin posted this:



			
				Kisame said:
			
		

> "Our levels are too far apart"



..from a credible translator. But then Kisame beat Killer B, who isn't going to have a ton of trouble demolishing J-man. 

So, Kisame either disgustingly overrated the Sannin, or his power fluctuates depending on the opponent and how much power he can steal from them.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 14, 2015)

Yeah, well you know my issue with that hype anyway. It's not about Jiraiya, and the viz (and context) back up that opinion on what all translators admit is highly ambiguous Japanese language.



It's not mistake that Sasuke wondering about the massive power inside-Naruto on the same spread. Or that Itachi and Kisame showed no real concern for Jiraiya, and Kisame thought Itachi didn't need to retreat even after telling him not to use his eyes any more that day.​


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

There's a few issues with that.

One being that every single translator on this board that I've seen address these scans think that Itachi & Kisame are talking about Jiraiya.

Two being the fact that Itachi diverted the apparent "non-threat" Jiraiya so they could stroll up to "big bad jinchuriki" Naruto's door and knock. 

So it probably wasn't them being unaware that Naruto was a scrub.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 14, 2015)

Most Japanese people think it's Jiraiya as well, but it's by no means unanimous. As I said, the text is ambiguous, and the translators' opinions are just that: opinions on the ambiguous language.

I want to restate what I said just now. _Ambiguous language_. Any honest translator will admit that their conclusion on the subject is not in the language, but in the story context. 

i.e. them being translators has _nothing_ to do with their conclusion.

Yes, they distracted Jiraiya, but Kisame was also cackling when Jiraiya showed up and said he didn't expect it to work. Itachi turned his back on Jiraiya to beat up and use Tsukuyomi on Sasuke.

So they definitely weren't shaking in their boots at big bad Jiraiya either. And as I said before, Kisame was shocked Itachi retreated even after twice-noting noting his eye-overuse.

The important thing to note is that we were thrust into their _mid-conversation_ about capturing Naruto. Maybe they were discussing worst-case scenarios concerning Naruto? Viz supports this.

And really, it should be obvious that a worst case scenario with Naruto i.e. him opening the gates and letting all of Kurama's chakra flow through him, is a _*lot*_ more threatening than base Jiraiya. 

Enough to, you know, actually justify the hype of Kisame and more Akatsuki backup not being particularly helpful for Itachi. Unlike Orochimaru's known peer, inferior in talent and intellect.​


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

Remember that I'm not talking about Itachi. Itachi didn't give a shit about Jiraiya. He knew he had enough power to escape if need be and Jiraiya didn't exactly have any interest in pursuing them at the time.

I'm talking about Kisame, who nearly got one-paneled by that Toad Stomach technique, and when Itachi bailed them out Kisame asked why retreat was necessary for _him._ Kisame knew he was no match.

Fast forward two years, and Kisame's clashing with the likes of Killer B & 7th Gated Gai. Either Itachi & Jiraiya are just more beastly than we thought, or B's chakra had something to do with it.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 14, 2015)

I feel as though only the most hopeless posters really think Kisame would be paneled by that toad stomach. Him generating an ocean and a thousand flesh-eating sharks should be plenty to bust free.

And like I said above, Kisame was _not_ afraid or even concerned about Jiraiya upon his arrival. He laughed. And then said that he didn't expect the genjutsu distraction to actually work.

Hence me believing the initial subject was the worst case scenario of capturing Naruto. The whole "out of my league," "more backup makes no difference," etc. makes _zero_ sense for Jiraiya.

Posters deflect with "herpa lerpa derpa, you mean 12-year-old Genin Naruto?" Yes. I mean a worst-case-scenario with a 12-year-old housing Kurama that the team capturing him would discuss.

And all inconsistencies are gone. On the other hand, you have Itachi, Kisame, and more backup inexplicably doubting they could match someone _armless Orochimaru was talking down to shortly after. _​


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## Kai (Jun 14, 2015)

All renowned translators have agreed the dialogue refers to Jiraiya. The context of the subject usage makes it clear to them, whether or not the transition between subjects may not seem that way when we read it in English. Rationalizing it is a separate matter, but Shounensuki and njt made it clear for a long time the duo are talking about the "caretaker" in the first portion of their conversation.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 14, 2015)

You're mistaken. I remember Shounensuki saying he wasn't basing his conclusion on the language. What he said is that the subject usage was ambiguous, and the that viz was _interpreting_ one way.

Additionally, here's a translator that feels the opposite: this happened As well as, you know, the official viz, paid translators of the English manga.

But y'all are still missing the point. I don't need to meet you halfway with an argument from authority from a translator, because it's not a translation issue. It's a contextual issue.

And my interpretation actually makes sense and yours doesn't. Armless Orochimaru thought Jiraiya beneath him. This is not a man with hype that Itachi, Kisame, and more backup can only stalemate.

Nor was it that way when Kisame was shocked when Itachi retreated _even after asking he not use his eyes any more that day_. Again. Jiraiya is not a man that either feared, in any way.

Look at the viz page I linked. Look at the context prefacing the power inside Naruto. They were discussing a worst-case scenario involving a fully unleashed Kurama Jinchūriki.

Moreover, in the same lapse of armless Orochimaru choking out and shit-talking Jiraiya, he also mentally noted that Naruto would be a major threat if Kurama came into the picture.​


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

>Implying Itachi stands a chance against a Perfect Jinchuriki of Kurama.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> >Implying Itachi stands a chance against a Perfect Jinchuriki of Kurama.



Perhaps in my Kisame's mind, the Yata Mirror would keep Itachi alive, and the Totsuka could seal the chakra. Tsukuyomi could also shut a Jinchuriki down since there's no time for chakra-transfer.

Then again, Kisame would only be thinking in abstractions, without knowing half of what us readers know. Point being: Kurama has the hype to take on Uchiha "Sannin-stomper" Itachi  and more Akatsuki. 

Jiraiya didn't have the hype to earn armless Orochimaru's respect.​


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Jiraiya didn't have the hype to earn armless Orochimaru's respect.​



Drugged Jiraiya that is.

Regular Jiraiya had Pain's respect.


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> P1 Kakashi was not considered a rival to bijuu like Kisame.
> 
> P1 Kakashi did not look down on Zabuza as a kiddie like Kisame.
> 
> ...


Kisame himself said that he was nowhere near jiraiya and itachi level. And that he had a hard time with Roshi but let me guess he was lying right lolz


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## Sadgoob (Jun 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Regular Jiraiya had Pain's respect.



On the contrary, regular Jiraiya was called a buffoon that hadn't changed at all. Jiraiya fused with two perfect Sages was said to have possibly been able to defeat Pain.​


Turrin said:


> And that he had a hard time with Roshi.



He had more trouble with the jinchuriki Rōshi than with Bee. Good for Rōshi.​


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> On the contrary, regular Jiraiya was called a buffoon that hadn't changed at all. Jiraiya fused with two perfect Sages was said to have possibly been able to defeat Pain.​



Personally, I count Sage Mode as part of the "Toad Sage's" power.

Maybe that's just me.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Personally, I count Sage Mode as part of the "Toad Sage's" power.



My point was that Nagato did not respect Jiraiya initially. Nor did armless Orochimaru. Nor did Itachi or Kisame when confronting him in person. Because Jiraiya didn't have the hype you think he had.​


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## Six (Jun 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You're mistaken. I remember Shounensuki saying he wasn't basing his conclusion on the language. What he said is that the subject usage was ambiguous, and the that viz was _interpreting_ one way.
> 
> Additionally, here's a translator that feels the opposite: this happened As well as, you know, the official viz, paid translators of the English manga.
> 
> ...


Wow I did not know that, all this time I thought he was speaking of Jiraiya. Still doesn't make sense, couldn't he just control Kurama with his MS. But maybe he was hiding that from Kisame.


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

So now Roshi > B lolz


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## Sadgoob (Jun 14, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Wow I did not know that, all this time I thought he was speaking of Jiraiya. Still doesn't make sense, couldn't he just control Kurama with his MS. But maybe he was hiding that from Kisame.



Jinchuriki, unlike biju without hosts, have a nice work-around for traditional genjutsu. If Naruto were to open those gates in his mind and let all of the sealed Kurama out, it'd be interesting.​


Turrin said:


> So now Roshi > B lolz



Part 2 Kisame said Roshi was tough to capture. Part 2 Kisame said Bee was disappointingly easy to capture. Draw whatever conclusions you like. It was your attempt to counter a point.​


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## Six (Jun 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Jinchuriki, unlike biju without hosts, have a nice work-around for traditional genjutsu. If Naruto were to open those gates in his mind and let all of the sealed Kurama out, it'd be interesting.​
> 
> 
> Part 2 Kisame said Roshi was tough to capture. Part 2 Kisame said Bee was disappointingly easy. Draw whatever conclusions you like. It was your attempt to counter a point.​


True but to be fair that hasn't really been the case with Naruto. He was a perfect jin in The Last and still got put under Toneri's genjtsu.Kurama didn't even free him, it was Sakura and co. I don't think he really ever did much to fix his genjutsu weakness. Though that could have just been for the sake of the plot...


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Jinchuriki, unlike biju without hosts, have a nice work-around for traditional genjutsu. If Naruto were to open those gates in his mind and let all of the sealed Kurama out, it'd be interesting.​
> 
> 
> Part 2 Kisame said Roshi was tough to capture. Part 2 Kisame said Bee was disappointingly easy to capture. Draw whatever conclusions you like. It was your attempt to counter a point.​



Ugh no I'm asking you to explain it, because your the one insisting Kisame was as strong as he was in the b and gai fight as he was in part 1 and Roshi fights


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## Sadgoob (Jun 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Ugh no I'm asking you to explain it, because your the one insisting Kisame was as strong as he was in the b and two fight in part 1.



Did you have a stroke halfway through that sentence?​


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## Turrin (Jun 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Did you have a stroke halfway through that sentence?​


Nice attempt to deflect now kindly answer the question.


Turrin said:


> Ugh no I'm asking you to explain it, because your the one insisting Kisame was as strong as he was in the b and gai fight as he was in part 1 and Roshi fights


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## Jad (Jun 14, 2015)

Itachi is one of the few characters that has resulted in using a oneshot technique immediately . Unlike Kisame who loves fighting and probably likes to drag it out, shaving chakra off his opponents. So him getting unnecessary injuries makes sense. Plus, let's not forget that technically Itachi did get some form of injury not from P1 Kakashi but from himself using MS.

As for Kisame and Jiraiya. I chalk that up to him not underestimating his opponent aswell as probably hearing a crapton of stories real and or fake. To me it doesn't make sense Kisame could not fight Jiraiya or be on his level considering he calls himself a bijuu hunter. Sucking up Chakra is the same between anyone. Samehada just needs to scratch his opponent and or bite down on him or in Kisamehada form stab them with his bones.

Interesting fight in my opinion.

What was it that Kisame thought highly of about the Sannin? Jiraiya was a hermit. Tsunade quit for 20 years. And Orochimaru was setting up experiments all over the place and part of the Akatsuki. Kisame must have just heard crazy war stories. All three are very secretive as well in what they did. Jiraiya and Orochimaru mostly though.


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## Turrin (Jun 15, 2015)

Jad said:


> Itachi is one of the few characters that has resulted in using a oneshot technique immediately . Unlike Kisame who loves fighting and probably likes to drag it out, shaving chakra off his opponents. So him getting unnecessary injuries makes sense. Plus, let's not forget that technically Itachi did get some form of injury not from P1 Kakashi but from himself using MS.
> 
> As for Kisame and Jiraiya. I chalk that up to him not underestimating his opponent aswell as probably hearing a crapton of stories real and or fake. To me it doesn't make sense Kisame could not fight Jiraiya or be on his level considering he calls himself a bijuu hunter. Sucking up Chakra is the same between anyone. Samehada just needs to scratch his opponent and or bite down on him or in Kisamehada form stab them with his bones.
> 
> ...


Jad Kisame as we saw him vs B and Gai is not being injured by P1-Kakashi. And him overestimating Jiraiya would be all fine and good, if Kishi didn't continue to pound home the fact that Kisame is nowhere near Itachi's league in the Data-book, have Itachi have to save him from Base-Jiraiya's jutsu, and have him talk about how difficult Roshi was to take on. All of which indicate drastic inferiority to Jiraiya and Itachi class Shinobi.

It takes so many excuses and convoluted reasoning to explain away all these instances that portray Kisame as nowhere near Jiraiya or Itachi "level" characters. Why jump through these mental gymnastics instead of just believing Kisame got stronger by absorbing chakra as he says he does and how every character ever to absorb Bijuu chakra did.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 15, 2015)

Base Bee scratched Kisame with trickery. So why not Kakashi?

All Itachi said was Kisame wouldn't get off "scot-free."

And neither Jiraiya nor Bee are "Itachi-class shinobi."

They're both magnitudes dumber.


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## Rocky (Jun 15, 2015)

So is Kaguya. ck


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## Alex Payne (Jun 15, 2015)

You guys know what power inflation is, don't you? If Part 1 started out with Part 2 power standards - both Kakashi and Gai would look a good deal stronger. Same with everybody else. 

Kisame's relative level stayed the same. He fought B having both matchup and circumstances(Sabu) in his favor. Hachibi Form B would have squashed him. Part 1 Kisame didn't have stuff like Waterdome and Daikodan because power levels were completely different - not because he got stronger over time/gets significantly stronger with biju's chakra. Tobirama's puny sourceless Suiton was Hokage-level back then.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 15, 2015)

Kisame w/ B's chakra is immensely powerful. I can see him defeating almost everyone on this list quite easily.
Itachi, Minato and Nidaime Tsuchikage are the only people who can defeat him on this list; they would be pushed quite far, with the possibility to lose around 50% of the time.


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## Turrin (Jun 15, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> You guys know what power inflation is, don't you? If Part 1 started out with Part 2 power standards - both Kakashi and Gai would look a good deal stronger. Same with everybody else.
> 
> Kisame's relative level stayed the same. He fought B having both matchup and circumstances(Sabu) in his favor. Hachibi Form B would have squashed him. Part 1 Kisame didn't have stuff like Waterdome and Daikodan because power levels were completely different - not because he got stronger over time/gets significantly stronger with biju's chakra. Tobirama's puny sourceless Suiton was Hokage-level back then.


I'm sorry, but to blame it all on power inflation is silly to me. The fact of the matter is even PII-Kakashi w/o Kamui stands no chance of doing anything to Kisame. All of his Raitons and elemental Jutsu are absorbed, he's out matched in CQC, and he has no way to handle any of Kisame's suitons. Like-wise even given what Itachi and Jiraiya showed in Part II and whether you think they are overall stronger or not, they are not completely outclassing things like 1,000 Feeding Sharks, Daikodan, Water-Shark-Dance Prison, and Kisamehada-Form. And Roshi whose skills we saw exclusively in Part II is not, nor ever would give the Kisame who faced Gai and B, any problems whatsoever, let alone be describe as a hardship. 

So regardless of whether we go off P1 or PII power-scaling standards saying Kisame strength remained the same does not make sense. After absorbing Hachibi Chakra the guy is WAY stronger than he has ever even remotely been indicated to be before. And to me the natural assumption there would be that the Hachibi chakra powered the dude up. After all it's not like we didn't have 10k examples in the war of how Bijuu chakra powers ninja up, such as Hinata going from Fodder Tier to batting away Juubi tails thanks to a less amount of Kyuubi chakra than Kisame likely absorbed of Hachibi chakra.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 15, 2015)

Or Kakashi might sneak in Raiton KB. And then remove Kisame's head with Raikiri. Then there is genjutsu which despite your believes is pretty relevant. Kisame was beaten very decisively by Kakashi's equal. Match ups were involved. But it still shows us Kisame's standing. Your Hachibi-chakra theory doesn't have anything solid behind it. Kisame already got biju-level chakra and can use all his moves freely. Chakra steal grants him regen and replenishment. That's all.


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## Turrin (Jun 15, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Or Kakashi might sneak in Raiton KB.


And the Raiton KB wouldn't immediately be absorbed the moment it turns into Raiton why exactly?



> Then there is genjutsu which despite your believes is pretty relevant.


Actually it's not. Kakashi has never even been shown to use Genjutsu to effectively defeat or even land an injury against anyone even remotely close to Kisame's level. Kisame on the other hand has traveled with the manga's foremost Genjutsu master and therefore has a huge amount of exp and knowledge as far as Dojutsu Genjutsu is concerned. There is no reason to believe Kisame would have any issue whatsoever with Genjutsu at Kakashi's "level".



> Kisame was beaten very decisively by Kakashi's equal. Match ups were involved.


Bringing up Gai dose not help your case AP. Kisame essentially went toe to toe with 6th and 7th Gate Gai and lost because of match up. 6th-7th-Gate Gai would murder stomp Kakashi w/o Kamui, probably even with Kamui. 

Gai and Kakashi were not equals, Gai clearly displayed this when he was able to kick Juubidara's ass to the point where he nearly defeated him, who Kakashi was a relative insect next to.

Gai and Kakashi were rivals, with Gai imposing a bunch of nonsense rules on himself to limit the amount of strength he could use and while playing a bunch of silly nonsense games.



> But it still shows us Kisame's standing.


So you truly think Kisame's feats against B and Gai are nowhere near Jiraiya and Itachi; and someone with those feats would consider Roshi a hardship?



> Your Hachibi-chakra theory doesn't have anything solid behind it. Kisame already got biju-level chakra and can use all his moves freely. Chakra steal grants him regen and replenishment. That's all.


So KN0-Naruto = BM-Naruto, cause they both got Bijuu Chakra 

No 30% of Kisame's chakra was compared by Neji to Naruto's P1-KN0. x3 P1-KN0-Naruto isn't even in the same universe as the chakra quantity Kisame stole off off B. V1 + V1 + V2 Shrouds and nearly all of B's chakra the second time. 

The scale of Jutsu Kisame can pull out and his physical stats should be drastically improved, in the same way that KCM/BM-Naruto are FAR above KN0-Naruto in these areas.


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## Mercurial (Jun 15, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Or Kakashi might sneak in Raiton KB. And then remove Kisame's head with Raikiri. Then there is genjutsu which despite your believes is pretty relevant. Kisame was beaten very decisively by Kakashi's equal. Match ups were involved. But it still shows us Kisame's standing. Your Hachibi-chakra theory doesn't have anything solid behind it. Kisame already got biju-level chakra and can use all his moves freely. Chakra steal grants him regen and replenishment. That's all.



Was going to write the same things but I was blitzed 



Turrin said:


> And the Raiton KB wouldn't immediately be absorbed the moment it turns into Raiton why exactly?
> 
> 
> Actually it's not. Kakashi has never even been shown to use Genjutsu to effectively defeat or even land an injury against anyone even remotely close to Kisame's level. Kisame on the other hand has traveled with the manga's foremost Genjutsu master and therefore has a huge amount of exp and knowledge as far as Dojutsu Genjutsu is concerned. There is no reason to believe Kisame would have any issue whatsoever with Genjutsu at Kakashi's "level".
> ...



He can use a normal Kage Bunshin to feint him.

Kakashi's Sharingan genjutsu is on par with Obito's. Obito would mindfuck Kisame all day, and probably night too. Genjutsu isn't Kakashi's first option but is still a strong option he has at disposal. Zabuza was negged by Sharingan genjutsu. Gai had to create a fighting style especially to avoid Kakashi's Sharingan genjutsu. It's just that Kakashi primary relies on CQC, Raikiri dashes, ninjutsu (especially Raiton), feints/trickery/diversions and Mangekyo. The fact that he travelled a lot with Itachi means nothing, it's just fanfiction, you have neither the slightest feat nor the smallest hype about Kisame's abilities in both genjutsu defense and offense.

Kisame went toe-to-toe with no one. 6th Gate Gai blitzed and negged him like a child raped by a bad adult man. Gai needed 7th Gate only to destroy all the sharks because Asa Kujaku wasn't enough to cover every single one of them in a single row. Hiru Tora then stomped Kisame, who was the first to attack Gai, while having absorbed a lot of chakra from the Hachibi and being in an ambient that gave him a lot of natural advantage. Usually, Gai would have just blitzed him kicking Samehada in the space (hyperbole, but you get what I'm saying) and unleashed Hiru Tora on his face = GG.

Sadly 3T Kakashi showed a very similar performance to lower Gates Gai's speed/taijutsu/taijutsu ougi with his own speed + Sharingan precognition and Raiton ninjutsu applied to CQC. 7th Gate Gai >>> 3T Kakashi yes; MS Kakashi >= 7th Gate Gai. Kakashi admitted Gai surpassing him only when he witnessed Gai fighting with the 8th Gate against Juudara; before that Gai said that Kakashi had always been slightly advantaged in all their battles.

You literally are grasping at straws here. Kisame has already Bijuu level chakra. Hell he is named "Bijuu (Tailed Beast) without tails" for a reason. He can do all his jutsu by himself, easily. Absorbed chakra just lets him heal his body and replenish his chakra, he can obviously power up his jutsu but he can do everything the same even by himself.


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2015)

kakashi genjutsu isnt at all on par with obito
who wouldnt see through an image of rin? seriously thats hardly a stretch 

also obito isnt known or famous for genjutus so am not getting the obito genjutsu hype here

kisame baby shakes kakashi without kamui. pretty sure if the match were to be polled 90% would agree


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## Mercurial (Jun 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> kakashi genjutsu isnt at all on par with obito
> who wouldnt see through an image of rin? seriously thats hardly a stretch
> 
> also obito isnt known or famous for genjutus so am not getting the obito genjutsu hype here
> ...



What? They fought equally in a genjutsu for an extended period of time, being on par, with Kakashi that seemed like it was child's play for him. (1)(2)(3) Obito would have mindfucked Kakashi, as he tried to do that just some moments beforewith the no heart thing and the Rin/young Obito thing, if he could have done it, but Kakashi's genjutsu was on par with his so he couldn't.

Obito's genjutsu can control Kyuubi with ease, mindfuck Konan, Fuu and Torune with ease, control both Yagura and the Sanbi being compared to Shisui's Koto Amatsukami. Again, like it is for Kakashi, genjutsu isn't Obito's primary choice, but that doesn't mean he hasn't great skills here.

Kisame was nearly killed by only one V2 jinchuriki, 3T Kakashi can handle multiple V2 jinchuriki with Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced vision, counterblitzing them, landing hits on them (hits that would be fatal for normal beings), defending from their attacks. Kisame has a lot more firepower, but Kakashi can outperform and trick him to land a fatal hit; far better speed, Kage Bunshin trickery and Sharingan genjutsu are perfect here. He is not Killer B, he won't let Kisame the chance to heal himself; not to mention he is not a chakra monster like B who is Kisame's most favourable opponent. Only if Kisame starts flowing everything from the beginning yes, in that case Kakashi would have to use Mangekyo to win.


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> What? They fought equally in a genjutsu for an extended period of time, being on par, with Kakashi that seemed like it was child's play for him. (1)(2)(3) Obito would have mindfucked Kakashi, as he tried to do that just some moments beforewith the no heart thing and the Rin/young Obito thing, if he could have done it, but Kakashi's genjutsu was on par with his so he couldn't.
> 
> Obito's genjutsu can control Kyuubi with ease, mindfuck Konan, Fuu and Torune with ease, control both Yagura and the Sanbi being compared to Shisui's Koto Amatsukami. Again, like it is for Kakashi, genjutsu isn't Obito's primary choice, but that doesn't mean he hasn't great skills here.
> 
> Kisame was nearly killed by only one V2 jinchuriki, 3T Kakashi can handle multiple V2 jinchuriki with Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced vision, counterblitzing them, landing hits on them (hits that would be fatal for normal beings), defending from their attacks. Kisame has a lot more firepower, but Kakashi can outperform and trick him to land a fatal hit; far better speed, Kage Bunshin trickery and Sharingan genjutsu are perfect here. He is not Killer B, he won't let Kisame the chance to heal himself; not to mention he is not a chakra monster like B who is Kisame's most favourable opponent. Only if Kisame starts flowing everything from the beginning yes, in that case Kakashi would have to use Mangekyo to win.



they fought for a while but what did he show that kakashi wouldnt know is obviously fake? not falling for someone genjutsu doesnt suddenly make you on par with that person in genjutsu. deidara broke sasuke genjutsu. he isnt remotely on par with sasuke in genjutsu though

 

so you mean to compare killer bee in V2 to other much weaker no perfect jin in V2.  common man! why do that. also kakashi wasnt able to do anything but stall them. they received no damage at all from the little bout they had against kakashi

if kisame traps kakashi even in a water dome much smaller than the one used on killer bee kakashi gets 1 shotted 

also kakashi better avoid daikodan but how could he if kisame has turned the place into an ocean ?


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## Mercurial (Jun 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> they fought for a while but what did he show that kakashi wouldnt know is obviously fake? not falling for someone genjutsu doesnt suddenly make you on par with that person in genjutsu. deidara broke sasuke genjutsu. he isnt remotely on par with sasuke in genjutsu though
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Infact that's something completely different. Kakashi fought Obito on par in a genjutsu battle for a widely extended period of time. He didn't just broke one of his genjutsu. So moot point. You're mistaking that for me speaking about Kakashi easily breaking Obito's genjutsu with his heart as a hole and with the image of young Rin and young himself, but I'm talking about the long genjutsu battle they had after; just look at the scans.

They were like perfect jinchuuriki as Obito was controlling them to their fullest. No one of them bar Yugito/Nibi could have gone V2 or full transformation at his will. Obito controlled them to transform.

Kakashi counterblitzed and hit them (together with Gated Gai) while KCM Naruto and Hachibi weren't able to do that, and were dodged and hit multiple times. He could fend off their attacks and fight them alone in CQC/mid range, while Gai was handling the full transformed Rokubi. Since we know that the strength of the Bijuu does not depend from their number of tails, there's nothing to say that Hachibi is stronger than Nibi or Gobi. Especially since their feats are basically the same. The only thing is that as a jinchuriki + Bijuu Killer Bee is the strongest (bar Naruto + Kyuubi obviously) because he is the only perfect jinchuriki. But as far as Bijuu raw power and chakra is concerned, we have see no differences between Nibi, Sanbi, Yonbi, Gobi, Rokubi, Nanabi and Hachibi. Hachibi just received more focus becouse Bee is an important character to the story that appeared a lot since his introduction.

Yeah, that's definitely true. It's not like I didn't address it. If Kisame starts flowing everything from the beginning then Kakashi would have to use Mangekyo to win. Otherwise he can use his far better speed and cleverness to employ Kage Bunshin trickery, Sharingan genjutsu etc to outperform and kill him before he uses his big guns.


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Infact that's something completely different. Kakashi fought Obito on par in a genjutsu battle for a widely extended period of time. He didn't just broke one of his genjutsu. So moot point. You're mistaking that for me speaking about Kakashi easily breaking Obito's genjutsu with his heart as a hole and with the image of young Rin and young himself, but I'm talking about the long genjutsu battle they had after; just look at the scans.



any proof obito was using genjutus beyond anything kakashi could handle? hows that different from hebi sasuke and itachi genjutus bout? that was some basic genjutus in play 



> They were like perfect jinchuuriki as Obito was controlling them to their fullest. No one of them bar Yugito/Nibi could have gone V2 or full transformation at his will. Obito controlled them to transform.



scans of anyone stating that they were like perfect jin. you made that shit up casually!! lol 



> Kakashi counterblitzed and hit them (together with Gated Gai) while KCM Naruto and Hachibi weren't able to do that, and were dodged and hit multiple times. He could fend off their attacks and fight them alone in CQC/mid range, while Gai was handling the full transformed Rokubi. Since we know that the strength of the Bijuu does not depend from their number of tails, there's nothing to say that Hachibi is stronger than Nibi or Gobi. Especially since their feats are basically the same. The only thing is that as a jinchuriki + Bijuu Killer Bee is the strongest (bar Naruto + Kyuubi obviously) because he is the only perfect jinchuriki. But as far as Bijuu raw power and chakra is concerned, we have see no differences between Nibi, Sanbi, Yonbi, Gobi, Rokubi, Nanabi and Hachibi. Hachibi just received more focus becouse Bee is an important character to the story that appeared a lot since his introduction.



scans of this counter blitz pls. how you just do that? seriously it requires talent
show kakashi dodging any V2 jin more than once please. 

gai blocked 1 rokubi simple poison gas. so i dont see how thats handling full transformed rokubi. seriously its like saying jugo handled V1 raikage because he blocked his first attack 

actually hachibi believes number of tails dont matter. kishi demonstrated otherwise by making kyuubi by far the strongest, then hachibi 

so i dont get you with that claim. 

no other bijuu could flash spam bijuudama so again you making things up. 

kyuubi even without jin was stated and demonstrated as by faaaar the strongest so again stop yourself 

killer bee in V2 was portrayed and shown to be well above the other V2 jin's kakashi faced. 



> Yeah, that's definitely true. It's not like I didn't address it. If Kisame starts flowing everything from the beginning then Kakashi would have to use Mangekyo to win. Otherwise he can use his far better speed and cleverness to employ Kage Bunshin trickery, Sharingan genjutsu etc to outperform and kill him before he uses his big guns.



so in short you admit kakashi would loose. since when doesnt kisame barf out a lake?

if the likes of asuma could force him to use ninjutsu. he woudl against kakashi immediately


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## Mercurial (Jun 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> any proof obito was using genjutus beyond anything kakashi could handle? hows that different from hebi sasuke and itachi genjutus bout? that was some basic genjutus in play
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have to proof he was doing that. The burden of the proof is yours. They had a Sharingan genjutsu battle where they fought equally. You have to proof that Obito wasn't doing his best, for no reason, since he already tried to kill Kakashi multiple times, and he just tried to corrupt him to have him join his cause.

Obito controlled them. 



He fought him off panel for some time, while Kakashi fought all the other V2 off panel for the same time. Most of the Masters' battle was off panel because Kishimoto showed Naruto trying to free the Yonbi.

Kyuubi is by far the strongest. He (at 50% power) can handle five other Bijuu like it's child's play. The other Bijuu fought on the same level of the Hachibi, they just didn't show Renzoku Bijuu Dama, but we have no reason to think they couldn't. Hachibi was wounded by Gobi, dodged and hit by most V2, and so on. His attacks didn't seem stronger when they all attacked SM blind Madara.

He didn't do that against Killer B who is a lot more powerful than Asuma, so we don't know. It depends. If he does, Kakashi needs Mangekyo to win. If he doesn't, Kakashi can outperform and kill him without needing to use Mangekyo. I think that's fair.


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2015)

> Raikiri19 said:
> 
> 
> > You have to proof he was doing that. The burden of the proof is yours. They had a Sharingan genjutsu battle where they fought equally. You have to proof that Obito wasn't doing his best, for no reason, since he already tried to kill Kakashi multiple times, and he just tried to corrupt him to have him join his cause.
> ...


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