# The conclusive Zoro vs. Sanji - who is closer to Luffy? thread



## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

*The conclusive Zoro vs. Sanji - closer to Luffy or each other? thread*

Getting tired of this shit being flung around so here ya go.
*
1.	Character*

First off you have to look at the most crucial aspect of a character? their character. 

Zoro?s character can genuinely be said to be almost entirely about strength. Getting stronger and stronger, until he?s so strong his name echoes in the heavens, is quite literally the driving force of his entire life. The majority of his character revolves around this, strength and fighting, with what remains revolving around pride (in strength) and honor. It?s emphasized in his rigorous training and in his toughness, which has been called the highest out of the entire crew, meaning higher than Luffy?s.

Sanji?s character largely revolves around women and cooking. His dream is to find the All Blue and his profession is to cook. He is a naturally talented combatant and has been living with fighting, including high quality training, as a major part of his life since he was a kid. This has developed his great leg strength and skill and heightened his combat instincts. His character itself, however, is not very much about strength. For Sanji, strength is secondary despite his incredible talent and familiarity with it.

Conclusion on character: Zoro?s character emphasizes strength much more heavily than Sanji?s. Nearly all of his character revolves around it. It even revolves around it more than Luffy?s, up until Enies Lobby where Luffy started focusing more on it. 
*
2.	Roles in the story*

What a character?s basic role in the story is, is hugely important for how strong they are. Important antagonists are usually strong, main protagonists are nearly always strong. People at the top of the world, in a Shonen, are nearly always strong, etc.

Zoro?s role in the story is to be somewhat of a secondary protagonist within the main cast. He has been called one of the 3 ?cores? of the story by the author and was the second major character introduced after only the main character. He has more panel time than other main characters, especially in some arcs like Skypiea and Whiskey Peak. His drive in which we follow him, as detailed above, is that of constantly becoming stronger and stronger. Within the crew, Zoro?s formal role is exclusively focused on his strength in combat. There is nothing else to him. Informally he also fills many of the roles of a first mate, which in OP is generally held by the second strongest character. Due to his strength and confidence he is implicitly Luffy?s right hand man in terms of leadership and direction of the crew. As the second strongest fighter in the crew, he has the highest responsibility after only Luffy to bear the heaviest burdens and take on the strongest fighters when Luffy can?t, a point especially illustrated by his actions during the climax sequence of Thriller Bark.

Sanji?s formal role in the story is to be the chef and, slightly less formally, the third strongest fighter in the crew. He derives his great strength from talent and childhood training as detailed above but not from rigorous training. We don?t generally follow him in a quest to grow stronger. He fights powerful enemies and overcomes them but growing stronger is not a major theme for him. Informally he is also somewhat of a covert operative/tactician of the crew, being intelligent and highly perceptive. Due to his strength and confidence he is implicitly Luffy?s left hand man in terms of leadership and direction of the crew. If both Luffy and Zoro are gone, the responsibility of bearing the heaviest burdens in terms of strength and leadership fall to Sanji, a point illustrated by his actions as acting commander of the Straw Hat pirates? ship during the absence of both Luffy and Zoro.

Conclusion on role in the story: Zoro?s role focuses much more heavily on strength than Sanji?s. Sanji?s intelligence and cooking are significant aspects of his character and the only thing Zoro has that?s comparable is his sometimes acting like a first mate.

*3.	Actions in the story*

This is just about clear cut actions. No portrayal/subtext.

Zoro doesn?t do much else in the story except fighting and training. When on the ship he either trains or rests. Within arcs he fights enemies. Outside of Luffy he fights both the most and the strongest enemies of anyone in the crew. Virtually as much emphasis is given to his growth and him increasing his abilities as to Luffy and more than anyone else. Up until Enies Lobby he had gained more power-ups than anyone else in the crew.

Sanji fights enemies frequently but also uses his intelligence to support the crew. On the ship he cooks and hits on the girls of the crew. Within arcs he is generally a mixture of an infiltrator and fighter, leaning more toward the latter. Among the crew he is given a fair amount of emphasis on strength and growth, but less than Zoro. He hadn?t gained a power-up until Enies Lobby, where he got one, but no more up until the timeskip.

Conclusion on actions in the story: Zoro does more things that should logically raise his strength than Sanji does. He trains more, fights stronger enemies and fights more enemies. This is reinforced by how more emphasis is given to his growth and overcoming enemies.

*4.	Portrayal in the story/implied subtext*

? Zoro joined the crew by being blackmailed by Luffy. Out of the entire crew he is the only one who didn?t willingly become a subordinate of Luffy?s after being impressed by him. Upon joining, he told Luffy he would kill him if he ever made him go against his dream. This paints a picture that is not much like a willing subordinate, but a man joining out of pure survival necessity while reinforcing he?ll split ways and become hostile if need be.

? Sanji joined the crew after being impressed by Luffy and accepting becoming his subordinate to go into the Grand Line where the object of his own dream lied. During his introductory arc he was seen to be astonished at Luffy and Zoro?s drive and the relentless way they followed their dreams. Sanji willingly becomes Luffy?s subordinate and though he?s very strong, their relationship is never really more than that.

? Zoro has a relationship with his captain built on a complete mutual trust in terms of strength. Both view the other?s strength in an extremely high regard. During Whiskey Peak each directly admits they don?t know who is stronger between them. During Little Garden each identically scoffs at the notion of the other having been defeated. During Skypiea Luffy is astonished that anyone could have defeated Zoro. During Water Seven, each wordlessly trusts in the other?s strength to perform an equally strong move to break through the Aqua Laguna wave. During Thriller Bark Zoro is able to stay conscious while enduring pain that KO?d Luffy on top of his own to save Luffy. As such Luffy and Zoro?s relationship is conveyed in a sometimes less explicit, but powerfully understated way, with huge underlying significance to the above mentioned scenes. At the onset of the timeskip Zoro reinforces his conviction to support Luffy with his strength. Other than the ones mentioned, there are lots of scenes reinforcing the dynamic of the closeness of their strength throughout the story.

? Zoro has a relationship with Sanji built on an eternal rivalry due to both being forceful personality types that don?t admit weakness to anyone, and coming off on a slightly bad note. He respects him as a rival and has been seen to be content at Sanji?s strength. Sanji also respects Zoro and trusts his strength. Their rivalry is often played for comedy and for cool but shallow scenes, but it can be gleaned that it has a significant underlying depth as well such as when Sanji is as willing as Zoro to take Luffy?s pain at Thriller Bark after they are the only ones that were able to get up after Kuma?s Ursus Shock attack. There are lots of scenes reinforcing this dynamic throughout the series, both the closeness of their strengths and their refusal to admit any sort of inferiority to the other.

? Sanji?s relationship with Luffy is that he trusts him fully as his captain and wishes to support him, with his cooking as well as his strength. They often fight together, alongside Zoro, as the so-called monster trio of the crew. There are numerous scenes reinforcing the closeness of Sanji?s strength to Luffy?s throughout the series, mostly through the portrayal of Luffy, Zoro and Sanji as the three top crewmembers.

? Zoro and Sanji also have a mutual relationship with Luffy where they act as his right and left hand men. This has been mentioned before but deserves a point of its own. Whenever Luffy fights a boss Zoro and Sanji usually fight some of their strongest subordinates. Zoro and Sanji are portrayed as the two monsters whilst Luffy is away. They each back up Luffy even though they can take charge personally if needed. There are numerous scenes showcasing this dynamic throughout the series, after and before the timeskip.

? During the Sabaody archipelago arc, Zoro alongside Luffy was made into one of the ?11 Supernovas?, notable rookie pirates with bounties over 100 million. This decision served to set him apart from Sanji and set him together with Luffy, following Thriller Bark.

(cont. next post)


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

cont. 4. Portrayal in the story/implied subtext

– When the timeskip happened, Zoro was directly trained by one of the strongest men in the world, “Hawkeyes” Mihawk. The only other person to be directly trained by one of the strongest men in the world, Silvers Rayleigh, was Luffy. Sanji’s training involved self-teaching himself new techniques as he fought strong enemies as well as learning new cooking techniques. This clearly unites Luffy and Zoro while setting them apart from Sanji to a moderate degree. When Sanji returned after the timeskip one of the first things he had to say was that Luffy must have become outrageously strong after training with Rayleigh. Zoro was trained by a top tier just like Luffy. Consequently, the same thing, that Sanji must believe he has become outrageously strong, logically applies to Zoro. This again serves to set Luffy and Zoro apart from Sanji in the strength they attained over the timeskip.

– As the timeskip has proceeded, Zoro stands virtually untouched 180 chapters in. He has crushed an enemy that Luffy called strong and another that made Luffy struggle. One of Doflamingo’s strongest subordinates barely made him break a sweat and he was able to fend off an attack from an Admiral and was called ferocious by him. Sanji has struggled to varying degrees with two opponents although they were very powerful ones. He was called strong by Doflamingo albeit the latter defeated him with a technique no one knows how to counter. All in all, the dynamic shown is that the M3 are all on a similar level but Zoro stands out especially for barely even being touched and even briefly countering an Admiral. Few fans have failed to notice the immaculate portrayal of Zoro and he has yet to be pushed hard. In Fishman Island, Zoro was given a fishman opponent who had gone through the same exact power-up procedure as Luffy’s. He was thus set apart together with Luffy.

Conclusion on portrayal: Luffy/Zoro and Zoro/Sanji are both strong, emphasized relationships that exist in the story as far as strength is concerned. It’s clear from this that Zoro is close to Luffy and Sanji is close to Zoro. Due to the portrayal as a trio it’s also clear that Sanji is relatively close to Luffy. The Luffy/Zoro scene however outweigh the Zoro/Sanji scenes when viewed holistically and with respect to their underlying significance. Luffy/Zoro scenes are usually done with more subtext and in more significant moments as opposed to Zoro/Sanji often being more brief, comedic and stylistic, though they by no means lacks significance. In Zoro/Sanji’s case the fact that they have a rivalry is a big part of their mutual portrayal. In Luffy/Zoro the portrayal is just about strength as that is what links them together and always has. In some scenes both relationships are emphasized, but Luffy/Zoro is emphasized more. Luffy and Zoro are the only ones that have ever fought each other outright and been depicted as equally matched. Luffy has outright admitted he doesn’t know if he’s stronger than Zoro at a time. Viewed across the entire series, Zoro and Luffy’s personal relationship, which barely resembles a boss/subordinate relationship at all nor did it start out as one, has the most underlying depth and significance between the two relationships.

*5.	The stance of official materials*

The databooks are approved by Eiichiro Oda, the creator of One Piece.

Databook Red, released around the time of the Arabasta arc, states that Luffy and Zoro are both “5” in strength while Sanji is a “4”. This refers to physical strength, but the M3 are all physical fighters[1].

Databook Yellow, released after Enies Lobby, states that Zoro is as strong as Luffy -- "stands shoulder-to-shoulder with Luffy".[2]

Conclusion on official materials: they state plainly that Zoro is closer to Luffy than he is to Sanji, as well as that Zoro is on the same level as Luffy in strength.

*6.	Overall conclusion*

Points 1, 2, 3 and 5 all weigh in clearly in Zoro’s favor. Point 4 about portrayal is closer but also favors Zoro when viewed holistically and taking significance of scenes into account.

When you look holistically at the entire evaluation, a pattern emerges and this also underscores the conclusion on portrayal. 

1. Zoro’s character is much more about strength than Sanji’s. 
2. Zoro’s role in the story is much more about strength than Sanji’s. 
3. Zoro’s actions in the story are more focused on strength than Sanji’s. 
4. Zoro is stated in official materials to be closer to Luffy than to Sanji. 

It would at this point be extremely odd to the point of being bizarre if Zoro was closer to Sanji in strength than to Luffy, and wasn’t more than trivially superior to Sanji strength. There is literally nothing in any of these 4 aspects that supports that. So what this indicates is that it is not the conclusion we should draw from analyzing their portrayal. The portrayal in itself favors Zoro being closer to Luffy and what we can draw from every other aspect of character, story and complementary materials goes hand in hand with that.

The databooks _are_ also approved by Oda, the creator and continuous author of the One Piece manga. So if you're going against those you're actually showcasing some pretty fucking massive hubris. Just sayin'.

[1] Turrin, 
[2] CCC,


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## Magentabeard (Mar 5, 2015)

Well I did read it all and learned more about Zoro vs Sanji/Luffy.


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## batman22wins (Mar 5, 2015)

You should also edit in that Oda doesn't even consider Sanji has a core of the manga. He put Manu instead of him. In the official material.


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## Ajin (Mar 5, 2015)

Coruscation said:
			
		

> Databook Red, released around the time of the Arabasta arc, states that Luffy and Zoro are both “5” in strength while Sanji is a “4”.



Same databook also states that Luffy's dexterity is a "1" and Nami's is a "4". Sounds legit, right? 



			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> Databook Blue, released after Enies Lobby, states that Zoro is as strong as Luffy



Based on whose translation?

_"He can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Luffy when it comes to combat ability"

It's still ambiguous language. It definitely doesn't say "he is just as strong as Luffy." Just that he's up there. Really strong._ by CCC

I have not found anything better.


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## Kaiser (Mar 5, 2015)

I doubt it will change some people's minds, but it was certainly a great read


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

Ajin said:


> Same databook also states that Luffy's dexterity is a "1" and Nami's is a "4". Sounds legit, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That, assuming it's a correct translation and interpreted correctly, is plainly contradicted by the manga. Databooks are complementary canon; they don't have to be perfect and the manga takes precedence over them, but that changes nothing about the fact that are official and authored by Eiichiro Oda. They weigh as heavy evidence in any debate presuming the manga doesn't contradict them outright and someone who spits right in their face due to their own personal preferences is flabbergastingly arrogant.

Thanks for posting the correct translation from a reliable source. I didn't say just/exactly as strong and there is a reason for that. As CCC states, it's ambiguous whether he's _exactly_ as strong as Luffy - which makes perfect sense with the manga - but it makes absolutely clear _*that he's up there. With Luffy. So it's time for a number of asshats out there to stop denying that*_. Standing shoulder to shoulder to someone implies your shoulders are the same height. In this case it refers to strength. You do the math, please.


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## Intus Legere (Mar 5, 2015)

Nice read, Coruscation. I agree almost wholeheartedly.



Coruscation said:


> It would at this point be extremely odd to the point of being bizarre if Zoro was closer to Sanji in strength than to Luffy, and wasn’t more than trivially superior to Sanji strength.



Would you agree that Zoro and Sanji were far closer to each other in Ennies Lobby than Zoro was to Luffy? Also, do you agree that almost all of the above was still true in Ennies Lobby?

As I see it, Luffy and Zoro could be considered equals are different points of the story, but it isn't necessarily true all the time; it isn't necessarily true that Zoro and Sanji can't be closer in strength than Zoro and Luffy because of your aforementioned points, case in point being Ennies Lobby, from character statements to Oda himself saying so. However, there is almost no solid evidence for Zoro and Sanji to be considered actually equals; sure, they are rivals, but being a rival isn't the same as being an equal.


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## HaxHax (Mar 5, 2015)

Please, no fanfiction. Stick to actual panels and not more storytelling bullshit.

You always do this. "Uh my interpretation of Zoro in the story based on some grand scheme that is so vague that it's impossible to pinpoint why i think it is like this".


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## Suit (Mar 5, 2015)

What a dumb thread. Zoro is closer to Luffy than Sanji is because he's stronger than Sanji. I mean, that's basically common sense.


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

Thanks for pointing that mistake out. I can't seem to change the title myself unless I'm missing it. Be nice if a mod helped out there.



Intus Legere said:


> Nice read, Coruscation. I agree almost wholeheartedly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What they showed in Enies Lobby puts them closer to each other than to Luffy. But it needs to be emphasized how neither showed their best, they weren't pushed to their limits. Luffy did and was. It wasn't until the next arc that Zoro and Sanji got to actually be pushed to their limits and show their true full capabilities, and then it was a different story. They were both shown to still be close to Luffy, and Zoro was emphasized more over Sanji than in EL.

I do agree with the notion that M3 strength levels aren't completely static. That just doesn't make sense from a progression standpoint. Zoro did so much more than Sanji and got a brand new power-up in Skypiea. It's illogical and unfair to Zoro's character that Sanji would just get to magically grow just as much. Likewise, it's completely unfair to Luffy for Zoro to be just as strong as him in EL when Luffy sacrifices his lifespan to gain temporary power to defeat their enemies. But in EL, Sanji got more of a power-up than Zoro (again, from what was shown, but this is something I do believe as well, based on Ashura's rarity). Then in TB Zoro got a power-up whilst his rival didn't. Not static.


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## Kaiser (Mar 5, 2015)

Ajin said:


> _"He can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Luffy when it comes to combat ability"
> 
> It's still ambiguous language. It definitely doesn't say "he is just as strong as Luffy." Just that he's up there. Really strong._ by CCC
> 
> I have not found anything better.


Raw text

"Rufi to kata wo naraberu hodo no takai senryoku wo mochinagara"

Which literally translates to "despite having a fighting power as high as Luffy's" according to what i got in internet

I don't speak japanese, but maybe someone else could confirm this


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

CCC is a credible translator, so it's likely the intended meaning is what he says.


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## Intus Legere (Mar 5, 2015)

Hmm, maybe I didn't make it clear in the last post, but what I mean is: it may be _extremely odd to the point of being bizarre if Zoro was closer to Sanji in strength than to Luffy_, but the same was true back in Ennies Lobby, despite how odd it was.

I also feel that, in and after Ennies Lobby, Oda wanted to detach Luffy from the rest of the crew and make him into something apart as a fighter. It was one thing to see Luffy win against Crocodile and Enel in situational battles that Zoro couldn't fight; but it was something completely different to see Zoro putting his hope of surviving on Luffy's victory against Lucci. (If I recall it correctly, he did say something similar to "If Luffy doesn't win, then we're dead" or something.) 

Of course that this action of making Luffy something apart in the crew in terms of strength doesn't make Zoro fall to Sanji's level automatically. What I mean is, despite seeming odd, Oda might take the same route of setting Luffy apart again, and it might happen in the next few chapters.


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

I'm making the analysis of the series as a whole and speak in generalities. Without a sufficiently broad perspective that take everything into account you'll never reach the most logical conclusions. So the implied meaning is that Zoro is not closer to Sanji than to Luffy _overall_. Whether as the "default" position (which may indeed change over time, but still has absolutely no reason to bring Zoro closer to Sanji than to Luffy) or in terms of the average.

I agree with your analysis of EL, but I think it's also clear he didn't intend this as some permanent thing given the events of the following arc where both Zoro and Sanji really showed their stuff and Zoro got an especially highlighted moment. Zoro taking Luffy's pain is pretty plainly, IMO, Oda's way of emphasizing that if Zoro wished to take Luffy's place - symbolically, be as strong as/around as strong as Luffy - he'll have to suffer the same pain as him. Then we've got the timeskip with Zoro mountain cutting feats and both being trained by world elites.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2015)

Whose closer to Luffy, of course it's Zoro, as Zoro has the edge over Sanji in their rivalry, but that doesn't really tell us how close Sanji is to Zoro, or Zoro to Luffy, hence the intentionally deceptive wording of this thread.

As for the actual thread. Point 1, Point 2, and Point 3 are all the same point and seem like wisdom, but are actually nothing points. Why? Because Usopp's character/role/actions in the story are much more about strength than Robin's, but Robin fucks Usopp's day up in battle. So what does that really tell us; a whole lot of nothing, that's what.

Point 4 is partially just a lie or if I give Coruscation the benefit of the doubt Ignorance. The Red Data-book in the Raw Japanese say Zoro and Luffy's PHYSICAL STRENGTH is higher than Sanji's, not that they are overall better combatants. So that's off the table completely as a realistic argument.

As for the other part, i'm less sure off since I have no Raw-Text to directly translated, but from my underestanding the Yellow Data-book (not the Blue, to my knowledge) says Zoro is equal to Luffy in combat abilities, but does not say they are much better than Sanji or that they are even better at all than Sanji.

And I've heard discussion over how heavily Oda is involved in the DB and if my experience with other Data-books is anything to go off, they tend to exaggerate. Not that I really have an issue with Zoro = Luffy, because it's possible (though a bit less possible in Post-EL), but I wouldn't take a non-verified statement from DB, that Oda may or may not have been all that involved in as Gospel truth. Though of course if these things could be verified it would be great, though still not supporting the openings position since it doesn't speak towards Sanji.

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The actual truth is, thus far the paradigm has been:

Luffy -- [Gap fluctuates from fair to basically nonexistant] -- Zoro -- [Slight Gap] -- Sanji  

Zoro is closer to Luffy because he always has a slight edge on Sanji, however the gap between Zoro and Sanji remains static as a slight one, while Luffy seems like he pulls ahead of Zoro by a wider gap than that at times. 

Or to put it another way

Luffy at times can beat someone w/ Extreme diff, who might beat Zoro w/ High diff 
Zoro can beat someone w/ Extreme Diff, that Sanji lost to w/ Extreme diff
Sanji can't beat someone that Zoro was extreme diff'd by


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## Ajin (Mar 5, 2015)

Coruscation said:
			
		

> Databooks are complementary canon; they don't have to be perfect and the manga takes precedence over them, but that changes nothing about the fact that are official and authored by Eiichiro Oda. They weigh as heavy evidence in any debate presuming the manga doesn't contradict them outright and someone who spits right in their face due to their own personal preferences is flabbergastingly arrogant.



This isn't so simple and obvious as you say, although Databooks are always signed by the author's name, they are not written directly by him, but by Shueisha's editors. That's why all Databooks from all they titles are so similar to each other. I will not argue that they are more reliable source than reader's thoughts, but it would be wise to take it with a grain of salt.

This books 




have also Oda's name on the cover, but they are completely associated with anime and stuffs, which Oda does not even know. Btw, this book  is written by Sanji.


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

Like I said, they're not gospel. But they weigh heavily in any argument and they should not be disregarded unless they flat out contradict the manga. That is the point I'm making here. And even if not written by him, they do have his seal of approval. That's all I really need. When the hybris of some fans weigh heavier than official material, something is wrong.



Turrin said:


> Whose closer to Luffy, of course it's Zoro, as Zoro has the edge over Sanji in their rivalry, but that doesn't really tell us how close Sanji is to Zoro, or Zoro to Luffy, hence the intentionally deceptive wording of this thread.
> 
> As for the actual thread. Point 1, Point 2, and Point 3 are all the same point and seem like wisdom, but are actually nothing points. Why? Because Usopp's character/role/actions in the story are much more about strength than Robin's, but Robin fucks Usopp's day up in battle. So what does that really tell us; a whole lot of nothing, that's what.
> 
> ...



Actually, that is not deceptive. I don't do deception. I do make mistakes, though, and this was one. I assume you started reading before you saw the post I mentioned this in so point dropped.

Did you feel the need to show off how you don't understand how evidence in argumentation works in here too, Turrin? Does the concept ALL ELSE EQUAL ring no bell at all in your mind? Between Robin and Usopp all else is not equal. So of course Usopp being more focused on combat doesn't automatically mean he is stronger. Between Zoro and Sanji all else is, for the purposes of this argument, equal, except that Zoro is far more focused in combat (in many different ways). So of-fucking-course it matters. You are basically invalidating Zoro's entire character and role in the story with one absolutely terrible argument that doesn't even seem to understand the basics of argumentation.

I've never heard anyone say that it refers to physical strength. If that's true it becomes a moderately strong argument rather than a near-conclusive argument. That's because the M3 are all physical fighters so physical strength is a big deal and pretty representative for them much like how Douriki represented CP9 well due to being physical fighters. And people favoring Sanji just love Douriki, so they'd better soak this up like a sponge too.

The translation of Yellow's line has been posted in this thread.

They aren't gospel truth. They are, however, very significant and official.


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## Kaiser (Mar 5, 2015)

Concerning the databooks: 

"O: Okay. *Well, these abilities were all described in the fanbook called "One Piece Yellow", but for those of you who don't have it, I'll explain!* There were three Devil Fruit users revealed in that battle scene."

Oda is involved in them


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## HaxHax (Mar 5, 2015)

He's also involved in the anime.


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

The databooks are a supplement to the manga. They are directly approved by Oda. They are meant to give accurate complementary information to the manga. I'm not expecting you to really understand why this is important, but try at least?


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## Jin22 (Mar 5, 2015)

Oh....helll naw....I have been in too many Zoro vs Luffy vs Sanji debates and have retired from them. That said, I have never seen it broke down like the opening poster did, like ever. Props and respect for the thorough good research.


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## ShadoLord (Mar 5, 2015)

It should be common sense by now that Zoro near Luffy's level than Sanji's. 

The showings since the time-skip proves this.

Sanji was destroyed by Doflamingo, and sorta lost against Vergo.

While Zoro absolutely destroyed Pica in a fight.


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## Jin22 (Mar 5, 2015)

Dam, its a good challenge. I even want to counter it...except, that I simply agree on all fronts


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> What people fail to realize is that no one is using the Databooks as an "End-of-discussion" argument. It's just a piece of a puzzle which creates a larger picture. It's all about subtext. The first Databooks was released around the Arabasta arc. We had just completed a saga that portrayed Luffy and Zoro as equals. We also had a chapter around that time titled Luffy vs Zoro, where both characters stated they were serious, stalemated each other with named attacks and shouted "Let's see whose style is stronger, once and for all!". When we put these pieces together, what is the underlying message? You don't get to dismiss these sources as meaningless, and pick-and-choose what's valuable. The fact that there's so many sources(Inside and outside/ canon and semi-canon) supporting this idea must mean something. Has the same been done for Zoro and Sanji, to the same extent? No. There aren't nearly as many pieces to work with for the Zoro/Sanji puzzle than there are for the Luffy/Zoro puzzle.



This kind of thing is exactly what's being so incredibly overlooked a lot of the time and why I tried to make a very overarching/holistic argument from several different angles and then tie it together at the end. It's not about the individual bits and pieces of evidence. People disputing individual bits and pieces by saying they don't _have_ to mean Zoro is closer/semi-equal etc. to Luffy are missing the point. One piece of evidence is never going to be conclusive on its own, that's why it's called evidence and not proof, but many pieces indicating the same thing to varying degrees will be strongly indicative of a certain conclusion. It's really about the big picture and people love to miss it.


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## MrWano (Mar 5, 2015)

And you changed your avatar again 

Anyways, good post! Lots of good points in there


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

Writing about old One Piece uplifted me a little. I dislike being negative.


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## MrWano (Mar 5, 2015)

That's nice to hear


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Did you feel the need to show off how you don't understand how evidence in argumentation works in here too, Turrin? Does the concept ALL ELSE EQUAL ring no bell at all in your mind? Between Robin and Usopp all else is not equal. So of course Usopp being more focused on combat doesn't automatically mean he is stronger. Between Zoro and Sanji all else is, for the purposes of this argument, equal, except that Zoro is far more focused in combat (in many different ways). So of-fucking-course it matters. You are basically invalidating Zoro's entire character and role in the story with one absolutely terrible argument that doesn't even seem to understand the basics of argumentation.


Actually you just don't seem to comprehend my point. Whether it's Usopp vs Robin or Usopp vs his fellow W3 Nami, this shit doesn't prove anything about strength. Or is Nami not close enough to Usopp for you logic to work, and if so, than I guess your talking about a "slight-gap" then.



> I've never heard anyone say that it refers to physical strength. If that's true it becomes a moderately strong argument rather than a near-conclusive argument. That's because the M3 are all physical fighters so physical strength is a big deal and pretty representative for them much like how Douriki represented CP9 well due to being physical fighters. And people favoring Sanji just love Douriki, so they'd better soak this up like a sponge too.


It's what the actual Japanese says, so yeah it's true.

And no it's a non existent point, unless your arguing that things like Speed, Skill, Intelligence, Reactions, etc... don't matter.

Even worse it's a DB that was released over a decade ago.

Even worse than that, the Stat is grouped with fucking joke stats like how pretty a character is or how curious they are. OMG Zoro's spirit of Adventure Stat is higher than Sanji, these Stats are super cerial Guys.

Even worse than that, in that Stat chart your directly drawing from Oda (assuming it is Oda and we take these joke stats seriously) includes other stats that would be important to combat that your blatantly ignoring, like Ability and Knowledge

Even worse than that, according to the Stats Luffy is the worst fighter among the M3 and it isn't even close, since his ability and knowledge suck, and he is equal in physical strength with Zoro and only a point higher than Sanji.

But his Spirit of Adventure and Curiosity must make up for it some how, he's just so dam curious the vastly more skilled and knowledgable fighters can't beat the little bugger  



> The translation of Yellow's line has been posted in this thread.


I said I would like the Raw Text so I can read it myself, because so far i've only seen an online translation from someone that I can't verify is even all that good of a translator. Not saying it's wrong and it doesn't even prove your view point, but after years on this forum, I take random online trans with a grain of salt unless I can confirm the Raw Text or someone I have faith in like C-Net, ShounenSuki, etc... has translated it.



Kaiser said:


> Concerning the databooks:
> 
> "O: Okay. *Well, these abilities were all described in the fanbook called "One Piece Yellow", but for those of you who don't have it, I'll explain!* There were three Devil Fruit users revealed in that battle scene."
> 
> Oda is involved in them


I'm sure Oda is involved in some fashion with the DB, I just here from other people that he's not even involved as much as Kishi was, which is a little terrifying when trying to use the information in an argument. On top of that, I don't have any of the Raw-Text to actually read and only see Random trans from unknown translators. If you have a scan or download for DB Yellow's Page about Zoro being equal to Luffy I'd love to take a look at it and Translate it myself.


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

Turrin said:
			
		

> Actually you just don't seem to comprehend my point. Whether it's Usopp vs Robin or Usopp vs his fellow W3 Nami, this shit doesn't prove anything about strength. Or is Nami not close enough to Usopp for you logic to work, and if so, than I guess your talking about a "slight-gap" then.



Yes it fucking does. Well, not "prove". This isn't proof we're talking about. If I had even a single piece of proof there'd be no argument. It's evidence that together with other evidence builds up a bigger picture. You don't even seem to get that which is what I mean by saying you don't appear to understand how this argumentation even works. With Nami? I can point to the reasons she might be viewed as stronger than Usopp. I can easily do that. It makes perfect sense. With Sanji? *You have nothing. Nobody has anything.* Because it doesn't make any sense for all of that training, all of that fighting against more opponents, against stronger opponents, focusing more on strength in general etc. etc. to have absolutely no impact. What you're implying by this argument is that Zoro is doing all of that completely in vain. That he gets absolutely nothing out of it that Sanji doesn't get despite not doing any of it. That's what you're saying when you claim that none of this means anything for Zoro's strength in relation to Sanji. Do you even realize how absurd that is, how much it spits in the face of Zoro's character? No, evidently not. Which is why you don't get the point I'm making whilst several evidently more clearsighted people do.



> It's what the actual Japanese says, so yeah it's true.
> 
> And no it's a non existent point, unless your arguing that things like Speed, Skill, Intelligence, Reactions, etc... don't matter.



But it's still a question of whether it means raw benching type strength, which really isn't much use in actual combat, or more like physicality in general.

Okay, so then Douriki doesn't matter either right? Because it measures only physical strength? Or you could be logical and say that while it's not the end-all be-all it's still a good indication of how things are. That is true in both cases.



> I said I would like the Raw Text so I can read it myself, because so far i've only seen an online translation from someone that I can't verify is even all that good of a translator. Not saying it's wrong and it doesn't even prove your view point, but after years on this forum, I take random online trans with a grain of salt unless I can confirm the Raw Text or someone I have faith in like C-Net, ShounenSuki, etc... has translated it.



CCC is a person who translated for APforums for a long time and was considered credible. I naturally can't verify personally that he is, but Japanese natives have considered him so, which I think means something.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Yes it fucking does. Well, not "prove". This isn't proof we're talking about. If I had even a single piece of proof there'd be no argument. It's evidence that together with other evidence builds up a bigger picture, Blah Blah Blah.


Your intentionally avoiding the point. Nami and Usopp are both W3, they are respectively Second Weakest and Weakest of the SH Crew, etc... Yet the things that like Usopp having more strength oriented dream, character arc, what-have-you, do not hold enough weight in Oda's mind for Usopp to even be equal to Nami. So whether that type of shit holds weight to Oda or not is not the issue. The point is that it must not hold much weight, and if it is the dividing factor between Zoro and Sanji in overall strength, the gap between Zoro and Sanji must even smaller than the gap between Nami and Usopp. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that you believe there larger gap between Zoro and Sanji than Nami and Usopp, but as I outlined above none of this shit hold enough weight to act as evidence of such a gap.



> But it's still a question of whether it means raw benching type strength, which really isn't much use in actual combat, or more like physicality in general.


It has to do with physical strength. Usually speed/reactions are separate from that. But even if they are not In Oda's mind (assuming Oda did the stat charts), in the stat charts themselves there is shit included like skill and knowledge, two stats that would also heavily factor in, in combat, which are being totally ignored by you.

Ultimately the stats are clearly not meant to be taken seriously when Luffy is the worst fighter by their rankings in the M3, and Joke stats like how stylish and curious a character take up as much of the stat chart as any of the stats that would have real value. And Luffy and Zoro already capping out the stat chart at 6 also makes them laughable unrealistic considering that was back in early Part I, and we have people like fuck Garp who make Luffy and Zoro at that time look like ants, so that further illustrates the age of these stats (over a decade old).



> Okay, so then Douriki doesn't matter either right? Because it measures only physical strength? Or you could be logical and say that while it's not the end-all be-all it's still a good indication of how things are. That is true in both cases.


It's illogical to say that because someone has a higher physical strength they are stronger, as it only measures one thing.

But fuck I could look at the ability/skill stat which would seem to cover more bases than just physical strength and say herp da derp it's a good indication that Zoro = Sanji, and > Luffy DA DERP!



> CCC is a person who translated for APforums for a long time and was considered credible. I naturally can't verify personally that he is, but Japanese natives have considered him so, which I think means something.


And again since I have no experience with him and he very well may be a great translator, but even the good translators make mistakes or often give translations w/o explaining the context of the Kanji/Text as they are not writing this shit down specifically to be scrutinized in a debate, they are just giving a reader a sense.

For example when someone translated 力 as just strength, that's not technically wrong, but the Kanji itself hold the meaning strength in the physical sense, rather than overall power-level sense, which is how you mistakenly used it. So the actual raw text in these situations are key.

Edit: And fuck, I might not even be capturing a full sense of the stats  or the other guy who translated that shit as ability/knoweledge, because i'm just going off the Kanji included around the chart itself. Like in Naruto DB's they had shit around the chart that gave a base understanding of what they stood for, but than on another page they had full blurb's explaining how the stats should be read. 力 might be strength of heart for all the fuck we know, which wouldn't shock me given the joke nature of the other stats and Ability/Skill might be skill at blowing ones self. Again it's so far from real evidence in my mind given it's age, joke like nature, and really a total lack of raw sources to cite.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 5, 2015)

_Overall your post contains a lot of valid information and no one should contest it's validity in proving that Zoro is the First Mate and second strongest Straw Hat. I absolutely agree, Sanji can not be as strong as Zoro because unlike Roronoa he brings more to the table than strength alone. 

That said, a few of your very own arguments are used diferently when comparing the two pairs. You say that Zoro fights more opponents, stronger opponents than Sanji  does and that makes him that much stronger. Luffy fights even more opponents than Zoro, opponents that are significantly stronger than the one?s Zoro and Sanji face and even had several islands worth of adventure and as result reason to become that much stronger in his attempt to save his brother from ID or MF. In a similar manner, as i mentioned in the past, i simply can not agree with your interpretation of arcs such as TB showcasing Zoro as closer to Luffy, and not to Sanji. Through out the arc Zoro and Sanji share moments of outstanding performance against Oars, team work, and willingness to sacrifice themselves for their Captain and the crew. While Luffy is collapsed, they are the last two standing between him and Kuma. After Zoro?s the one that get?s the edge and honor of sacrificing himself, as it?s only natural for the first mate and second strongest to get that honor when the options are either him and the third strongest guy, Oda once again brings praise to the way both Zoro and Sanji handled that difficult situation. He goes out of his way to create two random characters and plant them there for no other purpose than that. 

After the time skip the first thing Oda does when Zoro makes his appearance is not to put him at Luffy?s side, but have Sanji go after him and start fighting with each other. While Luffy does his thing and defeats a Pacifista, Zoro and Sanji both treat a different one as nuissance and continue to argue about who did better against it. That?s continued through every single moment the M3 group acts as such, always Luffy separated from the two that trail close behind, and not even once Sanji is threated as the third wheel that barely keeps up with the other two. Zoro is an outstanding individual and might on average look quite comparable to his much more relaxed/childish captain. Naturally he looks more comparable to him than Sanji does, he?s stronger than Sanji and his presence is more imposing as well even when compared to characters of similar or greater strength than him. He?s a closer friend to Luffy, the two of them doing a great job in showcasing the bond between a captain and his first mate. However though, when Luffy is pushed anywhere close to his limits and is forced to show his true worth, he?s the guy that needs to and defeats the enemy leader, which otherwise in multiple arcs, according to Luffy himself, would be able to kill anyone else in his crew, regardless if his name is Franky, Sanji or Roronoa Zoro. I don?t see equality between Luffy and Zoro, and i don?t see a Sanji that trails behind the two in any M3 group portrayal before or after the time skip._


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## batman22wins (Mar 5, 2015)

What has Sanji shown in the last 180 chapters that is comparable to Zoro in power,reaction,stamina/Endurance skill? @Turrin You don't even have to look 10 years ago. Oda said recently Luffy and Zoro are the core of the manga out of the M3.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2015)

batman22wins said:


> What has Sanji shown in the last 180 chapters that is comparable to Zoro in power,reaction,stamina/Endurance skill? @Turrin You don't even have to look 10 years ago. Oda said recently Luffy and Zoro are the core of the manga out of the M3.


Batman I really don't doubt that, and I don't doubt that Zoro has the edge over Sanji. What I don't agree with is two things:

1) That Zoro needs to be much stronger than Sanji, to fulfill a more epic and rewarding (to the readers) role in the story than Sanji. I mean Sanji is a fun character and all, but in a Shounen battle-manga, It doesn't get much better than Zoro fighting masters swordsman and trying to be number 1. Even outside of that in terms of stepping up for the crew Zoro takes point more than Sanji and will probably be crowned FM at EOS. However Zoro doesn't need to be more than slightly stronger to accomplish any of these things, heck he doesn't even really need to be stronger at all to accomplish most of these things.

2) That Zoro is consistently closer to Luffy than Zoro is to Sanji in the manga. Because I think the M3 is almost always all very close to each other, so if Zoro equals Luffy, he's still close to Sanji whose only trailing slightly behind. If Luffy pulls ahead as I feel he did towards the end of Part I, Zoro is left behind almost as much as Sanji. Basically Luffy as the MC has the upside potential to pull ahead of Zoro/Sanji, at times, but otherwise they are all very close.

Basically sometimes: Luffy ≈ Zoro ≈ Sanji, at others Luffy > Zoro ≈ Sanji, where "≈" can indicate a slight gap or none at all. But imo it's never Luffy ≈ Zoro >> Sanji


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 5, 2015)

Conclusion: ZORO WOULD BEAT SANJI'S ASS


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## trance (Mar 5, 2015)

Luffy > Zoro > Sanji.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 5, 2015)

I wonder if it's too late for Sanji to become a supernova


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 5, 2015)

Not that he's strong enough or important in the first place though...


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## Mike S (Mar 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Your intentionally avoiding the point. Nami and Usopp are both W3, they are respectively Second Weakest and Weakest of the SH Crew, etc... Yet the things that like Usopp having more strength oriented dream, character arc, what-have-you, do not hold enough weight in Oda's mind for Usopp to even be equal to Nami. So whether that type of shit holds weight to Oda or not is not the issue. The point is that it must not hold much weight, and if it is the dividing factor between Zoro and Sanji in overall strength, the gap between Zoro and Sanji must even smaller than the gap between Nami and Usopp.



Usopp's dream was/is to become a brave warrior of the sea. There isn't an exceptional level of strength needed to accomplish this goal and it doesn't necessarily mean he's supposed to be stronger than anyone. It wasn't until recently that Usopp extended his dream to becoming the Sogeking. Though Usopps dream is combat/strength related, it isn't nearly as strength-based as the WSS nor does it call for the need to stand at the top of the world in strength. 

Usopps dream may be strength/combat related but you're completely overlooking aspects such as willpower, determination, personality, tenacity, resolve, and by extension potential, which all seperate him from Zoro - and may be what's holding his character back from being stronger than Nami. You don't get too simply compare someone who just recently started pursuing a dream(and would've likely turned his back on it had the situation presented itself this arc), to someone who has followed the same dream since a child and was well on his way in completing that dream before meeting Luffy. 

All of that aside, Usopps strength related dream could have been used as evidence to logically prove his superiority over Nami had Oda himself, never stated Usopp will always be the weakest Strawhat. I understand the point you're trying to make but surely you should see the problem in comparing Usopp's dream and his superiority over Nami, to the Worlds Strongest Swordsman, Zoro and his superiority over Sanji. Especially when the former is held back by Oda's comments itself.


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## batman22wins (Mar 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Batman I really don't doubt that, and I don't doubt that Zoro has the edge over Sanji. What I don't agree with is two things:
> 
> 1) That Zoro needs to be much stronger than Sanji, to fulfill a more epic and rewarding (to the readers) role in the story than Sanji. I mean Sanji is a fun character and all, but in a Shounen battle-manga, It doesn't get much better than Zoro fighting masters swordsman and trying to be number 1. Even outside of that in terms of stepping up for the crew Zoro takes point more than Sanji and will probably be crowned FM at EOS. However Zoro doesn't need to be more than slightly stronger to accomplish any of these things, heck he doesn't even really need to be stronger at all to accomplish most of these things.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. EL showed Luffy pulling away from Zoro and Zoro caught up slightly in TB. I think Oda will do the same eventually Postimeskip where Luffy pulls away again, but right now they are equal in my eyes. Sanji is not currently at their level and nothing post timeskip has shown this changed. I just don't see what is impressive about Sanji these past 3 years to say his training are on par with Luffy and Zoro. Also if Sanji is close to Zoro how do you explain Sanji Showing in TB?


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## tupadre97 (Mar 5, 2015)

Zoro is obviously closer to luffy


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## Mike S (Mar 5, 2015)

Also, I'm not one of those people who constantly rips on Sanji. I give him the credit he deserves and even believes he would push Luffy to high difficulty. I just feel that it is necessary for Zoro's character to be more than just a dumb slightly-stronger version of Sanji. I can provide reasoning as to why it makes sense that Zoro is more than slightly stronger than Sanji. Can reasoning be provided as to why it makes sense that Sanji is slightly weaker if not equal to Zoro? I can provide reasoning as to why it makes more sense that Zoro is closer to Luffy. Can reasoning be provided as to why it makes more sense for Zoro to be closer to Sanji? I think not. The opposition would rather spend their time proving that Luffy is so far ahead of Zoro that he is left with Sanji, rather than proving Zoro is closer to Sanji by feats. All three characters are on the same general level, I just feel Zoro being closer to Luffy has been the norm, while Zoro being closer to Sanji is the exception. I imagine the outcome of their fights as:

Luffy defeats Zoro on the high-end of high difficulty - extreme difficulty
Luffy defeats Sanji on the low-end of high difficulty - solid high difficulty
Zoro defeats Sanji solid high difficulty - high-end of high difficulty


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

Turrin said:
			
		

> Nami and Usopp are both W3, they are respectively Second Weakest and Weakest of the SH Crew, etc... Yet the things that like Usopp having more strength oriented dream, character arc, what-have-you, do not hold enough weight in Oda's mind for Usopp to even be equal to Nami. So whether that type of shit holds weight to Oda or not is not the issue. The point is that it must not hold much weight, and if it is the dividing factor between Zoro and Sanji in overall strength, the gap between Zoro and Sanji must even smaller than the gap between Nami and Usopp.



You don't fucking get it.

*All else is not equal.*

There are REASONS why Usopp is not as strong as Nami (if he is actually weaker, who really knows, I mean that relies on an age old statement and right here in this thread you're saying we should be wary of a statement partially due to old age) despite those things being the case. Understandable, logical reasons.

There are NO REASONS why all of Zoro's training and etc. should give him absolutely nothing, zero, over Sanji, who doesn't have any of those things. That makes absolutely no fucking sense and greatly insults Zoro's character.

At least none that I can think of or that I've ever seen. I'm pretty fucking sure they don't exist because the idea is so ridiculous and insulting.

Scrapping the rest as this was the most important point anyway; I see a more favored opponent of mine has showed up.



			
				Sir Curlyhat said:
			
		

> You say that Zoro fights more opponents, stronger opponents than Sanji does and that makes him that much stronger. Luffy fights even more opponents than Zoro, opponents that are significantly stronger than the one’s Zoro and Sanji face and even had several islands worth of adventure and as result reason to become that much stronger in his attempt to save his brother from ID or MF.



And these things are often in favor of Luffy. I never said otherwise. But the picture needs to be nuanced a little here. In earlier OP, Luffy did actually not fight that many more enemies than Zoro. Zoro fought a LOT of enemies back then. Zoro also fought a stronger enemy than Luffy did in one arc. In Whiskey Peak Zoro fought much more than Luffy, and then he fought Luffy. LG and Drum Island lean over in Luffy's favor and Arabasta as well more narrowly, and Luffy threw 1 punch on Jaya, but then Skypiea gives Zoro the edge instead, as Zoro fought a ton in Skypiea -- he had two main battles and a big free-for-all, plus losing to Enel. So whilst Luffy did fight more, up until the W7/EL arc it was much closer than you might think, which goes perfectly hand-in-hand with Zoro's being hyper close to Luffy at this time. Zoro trained more than Luffy and there wasn't much between their fighting records, however Luffy has the benefit of being captain and fighting stronger enemies, so it's clear he has reasons to be as strong as or slightly stronger.

In short, I'm applying no double standards. These things apply to Luffy/Zoro as much as they apply to Zoro/Sanji -- however the gap is much greater between Zoro/Sanji in terms of how much strength-related stuff is focused on, and this is significant, because it would be a huge insult to Zoro's character were it not, and I imagine you can see that -- it would be like if Sanji made tons of efforts to get stronger in various ways and none of them payed off whatsoever. It's ludicrous. Sanji fans would balk if someone suggested that was the case for Sanji yet they're happy to imply it for Zoro.

Now course the EL arc is an important turning point for Luffy's character and strength. This is where he started to set himself aside, however, and this is an absolutely vital point, *Luffy setting himself aside gives absolutely no reason for Zoro to become closer to Sanji than he is to Luffy*. Prior to W7 they were practically dead equal, which Zoro and Sanji were not. Just because Luffy now jumps ahead of Zoro a bit doesn't mean Zoro suddenly and permanently loses ground to Sanji. So we've got that out of the way. The Zoro/Sanji relationship is not tied to the Luffy/Zoro relationship as such.

As for past EL and onwards. After Zoro's sacrifice he has basically paid the "price" to get to be closer to Luffy again. There is a symbolism in Zoro being the one to take Luffy's pain that you insist on undervaluing. It was not something that just happened to be done at around the same time as Luffy was beginning to really move ahead by sacrificing his own well-being. Zoro was made to do the same thing in a chapter literally dedicated to him, symbolically suffering Luffy's pain in order to save his life. It was clearly very deliberately done.

That said, Luffy has continued to fight more & stronger enemies and the symbolism of G2 is not completely gone, so I tend to agree that Luffy is still superior to Zoro post-EL and post-timeskip. I have not seen any signs of absolutely equality lately, just closeness. But the margin is not what it was in Enies Lobby. Oda has gone too much out of his way to show us otherwise. He went out of his way to give Zoro a new power-up and gave him his symbolic freight train of a character defining moment in the very same arc. Since then the implications have continued to roll in. So essentially at this point, Luffy high-extreme diffs Zoro and Zoro high diffs Sanji. At Enies Lobby it would probably have been high in both cases, perhaps Zoro high-extreme diffing Sanji depending on how you view the power-ups and such.



> After the time skip the first thing Oda does when Zoro makes his appearance is not to put him at Luffy’s side, but have Sanji go after him and start fighting with each other. While Luffy does his thing and defeats a Pacifista, Zoro and Sanji both treat a different one as nuissance and continue to argue about who did better against it. That’s continued through every single moment the M3 group acts as such, always Luffy separated from the two that trail close behind



I posted several things from the timeskip where Zoro is set aside to a level with Luffy. Do you sit there and claim that they don't exist at all? Or do you claim that they don't qualify? Sanji stating that Luffy must be outrageously strong -- _which is indirect hype for Zoro too given that Oda set Luffy and Zoro apart as the only one to be trained by elites_ -- actually happened before Zoro even showed up in the story. But you don't seem to see these. It seems an awful lot like you just don't want to see them.



> not even once Sanji is threated as the third wheel that barely keeps up with the other two.



You strawman my position. Please refrain from that, it's unworthy, especially when I went well out of my way to describe how much Sanji is treated as a part of the M3 and close to both Luffy and Zoro throughout the whole series.



> That’s continued through every single moment the M3 group acts as such, always Luffy separated from the two that trail close behind



The fact that you're limiting yourself to _just_ "moments the M3 group acts as such" showcases your bias. You're picking and choosing what suits you. Besides, it's not always Luffy separated as much as you say. Rather many of the moments have been about the M3's "equality" (using the word loosely) where it's shown that even though Luffy can do something, Zoro and Sanji can both do it just as easily, so these moments are not telling us about each character's real end limits at all. Let's take the kraken moment. Why is this talked about as just a Luffy > Zoro~Sanji moment when the argument can equally as easily be made for it being one of steadily escalating power, with Zoro's technique outshining Sanji's and then Luffy ramming it all the way home? And in one M3 moment you have Zoro outright stating he'd take over as captain if Luffy couldn't KO 50k soldiers. That's a pretty fucking big statement. The way that you look at nothing but the geographical position of the characters and decide that it's a Luffy > Zoro~Sanji moment instead of reading into what's really being said is very heavily biased and that's why I'm trying to emphasize you need to start looking more at the bigger picture, the overall picture.

Just this last chapter we had someone, just like the old days, go "Such power and he's still a subordinate?" about Zoro. It's not a coincidence you're hearing this stuff. It's NOT "always Luffy separated". Zoro has several times been bundled up with Luffy separating himself from Sanji.



> i don’t see a Sanji that trails behind the two in any M3 group portrayal before or after the time skip.



Then you are perhaps closing your eyes when those pages are read because I have highlighted them to you. Or maybe you suggest that Luffy and Zoro being trained by top tiers, something Sanji personally stated would make Luffy insanely strong, means nothing? Or you mean to suggest Oda going out of his way to give Zoro an identical fishman opponent to Luffy means nothing? This was just random and had nothing to do with Luffy/Zoro?

These are both moments that *Luffy and Zoro are set apart from Sanji*. There are also moments where they're all shown together and moments when Zoro and Sanji are displayed together. All three dynamics are firmly still in place. But what weighs heavier, what's more significant? The caliber of the men who trained Luffy and Zoro over the timeskip, deliberately both made two world class elites by Oda, laying the groundwork for their strength? Which Sanji personally stated must be outrageous due to said training by a top tier? Or the persistent banter between Sanji and Zoro over little things and M3 moments where none are really pushed at all? Don't freak out; all types are significant, although I shouldn't need to clarify that as I already did multiple times. But one is MORE significant than the other. And it isn't Zoro and Sanji's bantering nor the M3 moments.

It's ultimately the Luffy/Zoro moments. You'll notice throughout the series, as I have described, the most significant moments of duality, with the most powerful subtext, where the characters are pushed the furthest -- they generally belong to the Luffy/Zoro pair. This is completely in line with everything else, making the argument holistic, as it should be -- Zoro's more emphasized strength in like 5 different ways to Sanji's 0, official materials' statements, Oda's own considering Zoro alongside Luffy and Nami one of the three very cores of the series itself. It all fits like a glove. None of this - literally none - fits with the idea that Zoro is just a slightly stronger, dumber version of Sanji, and is closer to Sanji than Luffy.


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## Suit (Mar 5, 2015)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> Luffy defeats Zoro on the high-end of high difficulty - extreme difficulty
> Luffy defeats Sanji on the low-end of high difficulty - solid high difficulty
> Zoro defeats Sanji solid high difficulty - high-end of high difficulty



Pretty good summary.


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## Freechoice (Mar 5, 2015)

Bad thread

Sanji is taking on a Yonkou while Zoro fought a piece of rock

LG they were equal that's undeniable proof breh

ye tubbos spouting Zoro so strong with his mouth sword and shit 

While Sanji is a real man and fights without weapons

A man worthy of Garp's praise.

Prove it to me PROVE IT TO ME

Luffy beats Zoro high diff

Sanji loses Zoro extreme diff

Like mountain dew level extreme


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## Kai (Mar 5, 2015)

Whoever is more likely to be the first mate is obviously stronger than the other and closer to Luffy.

That answer is Zoro. There is not a single instance portrayal or even feat wise that has ever put Sanji above Zoro.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 5, 2015)

_I'm sorry but i can only disagree with the way you simply push Zoro back in line with Luffy because he was the one that ended up taking his pain and not Sanji. That's simply done on your own accord as result of your interpretation of an overall strength statement being made through the symbolism of that scene. That is simply not the case. Him being able to push through that pain and damage and survive is solely a statement on his inhuman pain/damage soaking ability. The symbolism involved in that scene does reflect on his role as the First Mate, and does put him ahead of Sanji, but does not make him Luffy's equal. Your emotional attachment to that scene might affect your judgement in this case. It was a gorgeous act of self sacrifice, it showcased how great of a First Mate Zoro is, and it also showed us that Sanji was just a step behind him both through Sanji's actions before that act and Oda's comments on both their actions through the spectating characters afterwards.

Yes, the "problem" with those examples you give is that they are not separated from Sanji within the group. All those scene show that Zoro is indeed closer to Luffy than Sanji is, and a better friend of his. The two interact more both in terms of strength due to being closer and due to their friendship than Sanji does with Luffy. When Oda presents us Luffy, Zoro and Sanji as a group they either perform on the same level before the time skip, or Luffy is given a clear edge after the time skip. There is not exception to this and it's pretty clear that at least up to this point Oda made it a rule to respect this pattern. This is also a pattern that fits with every other known Pirate Crew that we have enough information to analyze and the way i see it, it's most likely to stay true until the end of the story. 

Also, don't feel the need to dish on Zoro's character by saying that he'd be just a dumber version of Sanji unless he's significantly stronger. He is superior to Sanji in a few areas and you can't possibly be missing all of them. The most obvious is without a doubt Sanji's perverted nature and unwillingness to fight women. Can you really ignore Sanji's inability to combat half the world's population ? That's a huge minus that Zoro does not have to deal with. It's a minus that affects Sanji not just physically but mentally as well. Also there's Zoro's seriousness and self discipline / demand of discipline that are on the highest level within the crew. Sanji can come up with great, priceless plans, but Zoro can better solve various situations that require someone to stand for that seriousness/discipline. You can't ignore what Zoro did at the end of EL when he did not allow Luffy to go after Usopp, demanding him to act as a Captain should. Yes, Sanji was in agreement with him, but he would have most likely let Luffy make his own choice, and then potentially provide counsel in regards to how he should act in the future. That shows that Sanji lacks that severity and sense of discipline on the same level as Zoro, and those are valuable assets to have as well. So no, in my opinion at least,  Zoro not being world's ahead of Sanji in terms of strength doesn't make him just a slightly stronger dumber version of him._


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2015)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> Usopp's dream was/is to become a brave warrior of the sea. There isn't an exceptional level of strength needed to accomplish this goal and it doesn't necessarily mean he's supposed to be stronger than anyone. It wasn't until recently that Usopp extended his dream to becoming the Sogeking. Though Usopps dream is combat/strength related, it isn't nearly as strength-based as the WSS nor does it call for the need to stand at the top of the world in strength.


I actually agree with you man, Usopp does not need to be stronger than Nami to achieve his dream, but Zoro does not need to be stronger than Sanji to achieve his. That's basically why I feel the point Crocus is making is so weak, because having a more strength oriented goal, doesn't really provide evidence of anything, unless to achieve that goal the character in question needs to be stronger than the other character in question, but that's not the case for Usopp/Nami or Zoro/Sanji. 



> Usopps dream may be strength/combat related but you're completely overlooking aspects such as willpower, determination, personality, tenacity, resolve, and by extension potential, which all seperate him from Zoro - and may be what's holding his character back from being stronger than Nami. You don't get too simply compare someone who just recently started pursuing a dream(and would've likely turned his back on it had the situation presented itself this arc), to someone who has followed the same dream since a child and was well on his way in completing that dream before meeting Luffy.


I feel like these are the things that separate Zoro from Usopp, not Usopp from Nami, because Usopp has these things in greater quantity than Nami.



> All of that aside, _Usopps strength related dream could have been used as evidence to logically prove his superiority over Nami had Oda himself, never stated Usopp will always be the weakest Strawhat._ .


This is my whole point man. You could apply the same argument to Usopp vs Nami, but _you would be wrong_. So why should anyone have faith in this argument, proving anything?



batman22wins said:


> I agree with this. EL showed Luffy pulling away from Zoro and Zoro caught up slightly in TB. I think Oda will do the same eventually Postimeskip where Luffy pulls away again, but right now they are equal in my eyes. Sanji is not currently at their level and nothing post timeskip has shown this changed. I just don't see what is impressive about Sanji these past 3 years to say his training are on par with Luffy and Zoro. Also if Sanji is close to Zoro how do you explain Sanji Showing in TB?


Of course nothing shows Sanji is on par with them Post-TS, which is why I've always said my standpoint only applies to Part I. Part II is still very much up in the air, though I would like to think that Sanji simply hasn't measured up because he hasn't had a chance to fight his own Pica. Fuck Luffy doesn't look like he measures up to Zoro right now. 

Ether that or there being a plot line where Zoro becomes stronger than Luffy, beats Luffy's ass leaving the crew, forcing Sanji and Luffy to play catch up. But I doubt very much that will happen as epic as it would be.



Coruscation said:


> You don't fucking get it.
> 
> *All else is not equal.*
> 
> There are REASONS why Usopp is not as strong as Nami


So basically your saying if Oda didn't make the statement that Usopp is the weakest you'd consider Usopp to be stronger than Nami, by the same margin you consider Zoro stronger than Sanji, for these same reasons. How can you possibly not realize, how flawed that logic is, considering you would be wrong as Oda whether he told readers or not would consider Usopp weaker.



> if he is actually weaker, who really knows, I mean that relies on an age old statement and right here in this thread you're saying we should be wary of a statement partially due to old age) despite those things being the case. Understandable, logical reasons.
> .


The difference is the statement came from Oda's mouth and he stated Usopp will always be the weakest. He could still change his mind, but that holds actual weight, while the stuff your citing do not even prove anything.



> Scrapping the rest as this was the most important point anyway; I see a more favored opponent of mine has showed up.


Why not man up and just admit you were wrong on those points


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## Coruscation (Mar 5, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _I'm sorry but i can only disagree with the way you simply push Zoro back in line with Luffy because he was the one that ended up taking his pain and not Sanji. That's simply done on your own accord as result of your interpretation of an overall strength statement being made through the symbolism of that scene. That is simply not the case. Him being able to push through that pain and damage and survive is solely a statement on his inhuman pain/damage soaking ability. The symbolism involved in that scene does reflect on his role as the First Mate, and does put him ahead of Sanji, but does not make him Luffy's equal. Your emotional attachment to that scene might affect your judgement in this case. It was a gorgeous act of self sacrifice, it showcased how great of a First Mate Zoro is, and it also showed us that Sanji was just a step behind him both through Sanji's actions before that act and Oda's comments on both their actions through the spectating characters afterwards._



If you're denying the clear and specific significance of it being Zoro that takes Luffy's pain on top of his own, just 1 arc after Luffy for the first time sets himself apart from Zoro - through self-sacrifice - then you are simply too clouded by bias to see the facts. I didn't say it makes him equal, in fact I went out of my way to state otherwise. What I did say was that it follows in a logical sense from Enies Lobby and emphasizes Zoro and Luffy. You try to pretend it doesn't show anything differently than EL (since you rely on that for Douriki like gospel) and that all it does is showcase Zoro in no different a way than he's showcased in any other scene, as a first mate. But this is simply false. It was no ordinary scene, it was the single most impactful scene Zoro has had in the manga up until this point. The timing of it was not an accident. It is not coincidence that all I say correlate like it does and we then get top tier trainers over the timeskip, Supernovas/Supernova praise at Sabaody (again a clear instance of Luffy/Zoro separation). Since I already described it in detail in my last post and here you essentially respond "no because it doesn't" it seems I can now only leave it up to whoever's reading to decide what to believe based on each of our arguments.



> Yes, the "problem" with those examples you give is that they are not separated from Sanji within the group. All those scene show that Zoro is indeed closer to Luffy than Sanji is, and a better friend of his. The two interact more both in terms of strength due to being closer and due to their friendship than Sanji does with Luffy. When Oda presents us Luffy, Zoro and Sanji as a group they either perform on the same level before the time skip, or Luffy is given a clear edge after the time skip. There is not exception to this and it's pretty clear that at least up to this point Oda made it a rule to respect this pattern. This is also a pattern that fits with every other known Pirate Crew that we have enough information to analyze and the way i see it, it's most likely to stay true until the end of the story.



But they ARE separated. Luffy and Zoro = top tier direct trainers, Sanji = none. Luffy and Zoro = whitehaired super-powered fishmen as arc enemies, Sanji = teamed up with Jinbe. How is this not separation? You're just flat out denying facts at this point. Luffy does not always perform better when the M3 act as a trio. This is a shallow view as I described before. How is Zoro slicing up that tentacle really any less impressive than Luffy's move? The only actual difference is Luffy aimed for the head and Zoro didn't; there is no question at all that the kraken would've been equally as taken out by getting its head sliced into pieces. Sanji's move is a lot more dubious. Which some might instantly jump at and scream I'm downplaying Sanji now. Sigh. That's not the point. The point is to show you that these scenes can be spun in different ways. They're nowhere near as straightforward "Luffy>Zoro~Sanji" as you try to act like they are, and there is not the complete absence of Luffy/Zoro separations that you assert.



> Also, don't feel the need to dish on Zoro's character by saying that he'd be just a dumber version of Sanji unless he's significantly stronger. He is superior to Sanji in a few areas and you can't possibly be missing all of them. The most obvious is without a doubt Sanji's perverted nature and unwillingness to fight women. Can you really ignore Sanji's inability to combat half the world's population ? That's a huge minus that Zoro does not have to deal with. It's a minus that affects Sanji not just physically but mentally as well. Also there's Zoro's seriousness and self discipline / demand of discipline that are on the highest level within the crew. Sanji can come up with great, priceless plans, but Zoro can better solve various situations that require someone to stand for that seriousness/discipline. You can't ignore what Zoro did at the end of EL when he did not allow Luffy to go after Usopp, demanding him to act as a Captain should. Yes, Sanji was in agreement with him, but he would have most likely let Luffy make his own choice, and then potentially provide counsel in regards to how he should act in the future. That shows that Sanji lacks that severity and sense of discipline on the same level as Zoro, and those are valuable assets to have as well. So no, in my opinion at least,  Zoro not being world's ahead of Sanji in terms of strength doesn't make him just a slightly stronger dumber version of him.[/I]



I already implicitly noted all these in describing Zoro's first mate-like qualities. If you're going to bring up Sanji's weakness to women then here comes Zoro's weakness to directions. Really it's not a relevant point. In terms of what they bring to the crew Zoro has two points: strength, the bigger one, and first mate-like qualities, the smaller one. Sanji has three: strength, intelligence and cooking. Sanji not only has more points but his strength side is a smaller one. Zoro HAS NO ROLE in the crew other than to fight. It would completely annihilate his character if, in that role, he was just a slightly stronger Sanji. This is just another thing that eternally unites Luffy and Zoro - their meatheadedness, them being pure fighters. That separates them both from Sanji and always has and always will. Why would Zoro be closer to the guy who is tactically shrewd, smart and has other skills than to his captain who is so eerily similar to himself in terms of their combative natures and pure meatheadedness? It doesn't even make sense on a character theme level in that sense.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 5, 2015)

_It's not an ordinary scene and it's Zoro's most impactful act as the First Mate. If anyone had any doubt up to that point in regards to his role as the First Mate, those doubts should have disappeared. It's a powerful scene, and wonderful act of self sacrifice, it once again gives Zoro that edge over Sanji, but anything else beyond this, any other conclusion in terms of overall strength disparity between Luffy and Zoro is not implied, and one must come with the mindset that it's already there or should be there in order to find it. TB says more about Zoro and Sanji being separated by a single step than it does about the gap between Luffy and either of them.

That's not through the group's actions and i already accepted your various examples having a value, i simply disagree with the extent of that value. Zoro is closer to Luffy than Sanji is, naturally he will qualify to match him in certain aspects more so than the next guy in the line. If we are to compare the gaps between them we must look at the group as a whole, together, and in those examples the credit goes to Luffy. Yeah you can argue that Zoro's destructive power is above Sanji's ( hopefully while not thinking that the destructive power alone is the extent of a fighters overall strength ) and that his cut on the Kraken was more impressive, and sure someone who supports Sanji might claim that Sanji's feat was that much more impressive because he withstood water pressure that would have destroyed the Sunny in a second without the coating, or even a submarine, and that he could produce that much fire underwater. You can go back and forth but at the end of the day, in these group examples meant to show the groups dynamic, superior portrayal goes in Luffy's favor. He's the one that KO's the enemy, destroys a Pacifista while they share one, moves towards the leader while they stop the subordinates that try to attack their Captain, etc.

If the difference would be as small as Akainu vs Aokiji, i would agree. If you have a problem with Zoro, the right hand man of Luffy, needing very high difficulty to defeat the left hand man and consider that to be shameful because he is not as intelligent as the left hand man, i disagree. _


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> I already implicitly noted all these in describing Zoro's first mate-like qualities. If you're going to bring up Sanji's weakness to women then here comes Zoro's weakness to directions. Really it's not a relevant point. In terms of what they bring to the crew Zoro has two points: strength, the bigger one, and first mate-like qualities, the smaller one. Sanji has three: strength, intelligence and cooking. Sanji not only has more points but his strength side is a smaller one. Zoro HAS NO ROLE in the crew other than to fight. It would completely annihilate his character if, in that role, he was just a slightly stronger Sanji. This is just another thing that eternally unites Luffy and Zoro - their meatheadedness, them being pure fighters. That separates them both from Sanji and always has and always will. Why would Zoro be closer to the guy who is tactically shrewd, smart and has other skills than to his captain who is so eerily similar to himself in terms of their combative natures and pure meatheadedness? It doesn't even make sense on a character theme level in that sense.


Yet so far Zoro has been able to accomplish his role in the crew just fine despite consistently fighting enemies that are _only_ slightly stronger than Sanji's.


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## HaxHax (Mar 5, 2015)

All this is completely speculative.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _That's far from a convincing answer. Why would having Jabra and Kaku as almost perfect equals in terms of doriki be the ultimate solution to create hype ? Why not have Kaku closer to Lucci and a monster as well, does that create less hype ? Both sides will bring various arguments for what their DF transformation, experience and fighting style means for the two of them, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. What matters is that Oda put an almost perfect equal value on those two characters in contrast to Lucci. Everything else is fans going at each other with various degrees of bias.
> 
> They were often portrayed as similar in strength though. Little Garden compares them, EL compares them, even TB actually compares them a lot more than Luffy with either of them. You can dig for various instances through out the story, but you can even find such examples in the post time skip One Piece, the part where some have such skewed view on the gap between them based on Zoro's feats in an arc where Sanji does not get a fight. The first thing Oda does when Zoro makes an appearance post time skip is to renew his rivalry with Sanji and have them fight with each other while creating an equally fierce aura around them
> 
> ...



This is how it's done, and there's a reason why the local Zoro wanksquad never presents pages like these that speak glaringly in favor of a Luffy-Zoro dynamic. Because those pages don't exist.


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## Kaiser (Mar 5, 2015)

Talking about geographical positions: 


Clearly Jimbe was as strong as Arlong 

Talking about who takes the boss: 

Clearly Fisher Tiger was stronger than Jimbe:  

Geographical positions really demonstrated those "facts"


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 5, 2015)

Mhmmm yeah let's disregard an panel fight against each other, character statements, and data books in favor of subjective thought because "muh portrayal"


Fact is, Zoro has Canonicaly been shown equal to Luffy


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 5, 2015)

Luffy and Zoro vs Morgan
Luffy and Zoro vs agent 4&5
Luffy and Zoro vs Kuro squad
Luffy and Zoro vs Lucci & Co.
Luffy & Zoro vs aqua lagoon
Luffy & Zoro vs PH Dragon
Luffy & Zoro vs Coby and Helmpoo



Compared too...


Zoro and Sanji vs Groggy monsters



Luffy has only ever tag teamed with Zoro
Luffy and Zoro are the only two supernovas on the crew
Luffy and Zoro are the only two saviors of Dressrosa
Luffy and Zoro are the only two that were mentioned as strong by Monet
Luffy and Zoro are the only two trained by Legends
Luffy and Zoro were the only two acknowledged as strong by the king of FI
Luffy and Zoro were the only two who've shown hardening

 talk about that portrayal huh?


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 5, 2015)

Should add Zoro and Luffy are the only two who didn't get there leg shattered by Vergo by a basic ass kick


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## Lawliet (Mar 5, 2015)

Zoro is closer to Sanji and almost his equal if not his equal. Anyone who says otherwise is a retarded butthurt fan.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 5, 2015)

_Because of their clashing personalities Zoro and Sanji don't work together unless they absolutely have to



*Spoiler*:  








Zoro and Luffy work together because they are closer friends and they are usually moving together while Sanji acts on his own. Luffy did tag team with Sanji when Zoro was not there





*Spoiler*:  








But that's a rare occurrence due to the way they usually operate.

Some of the stuff Jeep Brah mentioned partially explains why and proves that Zoro is indeed the second strongest, no one would argue that. Like Zoro having the second lowest bounty of the Supernova while Luffy has the second highest and Sanji doesn't make the list. Some help Sanji's case of lacking post time skip feats, considering that the M3 that specializes in CoA lacked hardening feats until just a week ago._


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## Freechoice (Mar 5, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Zoro is closer to Sanji and almost his equal if not his equal. Anyone who says otherwise is a retarded butthurt fan.



I want to hug you

Too bad opinions aren't noticed unless they're 50 billion characters long and takes up the whole page


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## zorokuma (Mar 5, 2015)

dammit, I want to say zoro is closer to luffy than he is to sanji.  I believe that its true as well, I really do.  But I have to admit, Turrin does make Coruscation's argument seem weak. 

 Their characters really got nothing to do with who is stronger.  The most it can do is help show why they are so strong.  

Zoro could train all he wants, that doesn't stop sanji from being close to him with natural ability.  christiano ronaldo trains a lot more than lionel messi and messi  is still the best in the world.  

Sanji's opponent is usually slightly weaker than zoro's while luffy's is usually much stronger than both of their opponents.

Turrin soloed the data books argument.

those arguments were pretty weak I must admit.

That being said, we cannot ignore the level of zoro's feats, the way that more than once people admire luffy just because he can actually have zoro as a subordinate, the times zoro and luffy went head to head and stalemated each other and so on and so on.  look at sanji vs vergo and zoro vs pica.  im pretty sure zoro would cut vergo in half and luffy would EGG the hell out of him.  Sanji though, almost fractures his leg....

I really do believe that Zoro is closer to luffy than  sanji is to zoro.  but that is not by much at all.


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## Empathy (Mar 5, 2015)

The title is phrased poorly. Zoro's obviously the second strongest of the crew and therefore closest to Luffy in strength. The topic of debate should be whether Zoro's closer to Luffy or Sanji in strength.


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## Freechoice (Mar 5, 2015)

Turrin does make Coruscation's argument seem weak.

But Corus likes Garp so he's better.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2015)

zorokuma said:


> That being said, we cannot ignore the level of zoro's feats, the way that more than once people admire luffy just because he can actually have zoro as a subordinate, the times zoro and luffy went head to head and stalemated each other and so on and so on.  look at sanji vs vergo and zoro vs pica.  im pretty sure zoro would cut vergo in half and luffy would EGG the hell out of him.  Sanji though, almost fractures his leg....


Just to clarify my points only apply to Part I. Part II things are less clear. However I personally am extremely wary of declaring that Oda would change up a paradigm he seemed to value so heavily in Part I, w/o extremely conclusive evidence supporting such a shift. That's why I tend to give Sanji the benefit of the doubt.

When it comes to your points. I think people are always going to praise Zoro more, because he fulfills the FM role and as such he is going to be the second most infamous after the captain. However  someone like Marco is much more infamous than Jozu and fulfills the FM role in the WB pirate crew, but I think we can safely say Marco is closer in strength to Jozu than he is to WB. Granted Zoro should have an edge over Sanji, which he most certainly does, but much like Marco he doesn't need to be closer to Luffy, than he is to Sanji, to fulfill this role.

As for the feats stuff, I agree that you can point to Zoro cutting through Pica's CoA and Sanji cracking his leg on Vergo's CoA. But think about how many people were saying Vergo > Zoro until literally only a couple weeks ago when Zoro showed his Ougi and left them eating crow. I don't want to be eating a flying rat somewhere down the road when Sanji goes all out, do you? And basically that's what it comes down to. Sanji's performance against Vergo doesn't look super flattering, but honestly it's not as bad as Zoro and Luffy initially came off [Yeti Cool Bros, Monet, Bellamy, etc...] until they actually got the chance to fight seriously and we saw they weren't showing anywhere near what they were capable of, and Sanji hasn't been given that moment yet.



> I really do believe that Zoro is closer to luffy than  sanji is to zoro.  but that is not by much at all.


That's cool I respect other opinions, especially when it comes to Part II when things are less certain. I just don't respect people who utilize weak arguments, while at the same time telling other people they lack reading comprehension for not buying into said weak arguments.


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## HaxHax (Mar 5, 2015)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> Don't tempt me. If there is one person that is good at gathering Zoro panels for debates, that person is me. I've gathered material(manga and outside sources) for these kinds of topics countless times. It's almost my specialty. Posts like these are just information I gathered off the top of my head:
> 
> 
> 
> Hell, I'm the one who archived those very hard-to-find databook stats. I can assure you that I'd be able to create an impressive list of pages that support the Luffy-Zoro dynamic. It's just that it takes time, effort, and energy that I am not willing to exert right now, especially from a smartphone. I admit though, you're really tempting me. I may make a list this weekend.



Find something post-timeskip (keep it fresh) where Zoro and Luffy are blatantly held to a different standard than Sanji. All three characters have to be present and active, directly or indirectly, or else you have _no comparison_. Just speculative bs as is the case with the rest of the posts in here. Loosely working together or talking to each other is no way to gauge the strength dynamics in the crew.

What I want to see is a situation like when Zoro & Sanji took out a tentacle each, while Luffy dealt with the entire Kraken. Sanji & Zoro parrying the fishman henchmen while Luffy dealt with the chief. Zoro & Sanji simultaneously destroying a Pacifista, while Luffy dealt with one of his own. A recurring theme in the arc where we establish the positions of the post-skip crew. And it's not like this is exclusive to post-skip either.

That's all I'm asking for. Show me that one time where Luffy & Zoro are shown to do an equal job and Sanji is shown to do a lesser one. We have plenty of material where Sanji and Zoro are _directly_ shown doing an equal _and_ lesser job compared to Luffy.

If it existed you can be sure it would be spammed here day and night. But please, spare me of gish gallops of links that serve no other purpose than effectively filibustering the discussion by diluting it to a point where addressing it all would be an impossible task.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2015)

Lol said:


> Turrin does make Coruscation's argument seem weak.
> 
> But Corus likes Garp so he's better.



I like Garp too


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## Lawliet (Mar 5, 2015)

Lol said:


> I want to hug you
> 
> Too bad opinions aren't noticed unless they're 50 billion characters long and takes up the whole page



I'm guessing my sarcasm didn't get to you yet <.> Or yours didn't get to me. either or.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 5, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Because of their clashing personalities Zoro and Sanji don't work together unless they absolutely have to
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Luffy and Zoro don't work together more because there better "friends". They work together more because they're closer in strength than anyone else in the crew.


This is very common in shounen mangas 


I.e Goku and Vegeta vs all


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 5, 2015)

HaxHax said:


> Find something post-timeskip (keep it fresh) where Zoro and Luffy are blatantly held to a different standard than Sanji. All three characters have to be present and active, directly or indirectly, or else you have _no comparison_. Just speculative bs as is the case with the rest of the posts in here. Loosely working together or talking to each other is no way to gauge the strength dynamics in the crew.
> 
> What I want to see is a situation like when Zoro & Sanji took out a tentacle each, while Luffy dealt with the entire Kraken. Sanji & Zoro parrying the fishman henchmen while Luffy dealt with the chief. Zoro & Sanji simultaneously destroying a Pacifista, while Luffy dealt with one of his own. A recurring theme in the arc where we establish the positions of the post-skip crew.
> 
> ...





Watch Film Z, which is cannon along with this....

[YOUTUBE]http://youtube.com/watch?v=LK5hQFI8Cug[/YOUTUBE]


Zoro & Luffy vs a renown vice admiral and a former admirals right hand.


While...................... Sanji's on fodder duty.



Or this,



Where's Sanji?


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## HaxHax (Mar 5, 2015)

Stick with the stuff Oda draws, thanks.


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## Freechoice (Mar 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I like Garp too



Good man 



oOLawlietOo said:


> I'm guessing my sarcasm didn't get to you yet <.> Or yours didn't get to me. either or.



I think both.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 5, 2015)

HaxHax said:


> Stick with the stuff Oda draws, thanks.



You've got a tasteful way of saying "I concede"


At least you tried, sorta...


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 5, 2015)

But here's my favorite supernova drawing




And my favorite non-supernova drawing


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## Freechoice (Mar 5, 2015)

I like you Jeep Brah


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 5, 2015)

Lol said:


> I like you Jeep Brah





​


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## Kaiser (Mar 5, 2015)




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## Magentabeard (Mar 6, 2015)

and this is my favourite supernova and marine drawing


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## Dr. White (Mar 6, 2015)

I personally think Zoro pushed the gap between them further over te timeskip due to his more specialized training with a more quality tutor than Sanji. Sanji still got good training in martial fighting presumably a bunch of skilled mid/ possibly low high tier Martial art Masters on Kambakka Island. But Zoro who already had a slim edge pre skip, just honed his combat ability to true VC level. Sanji is still the protector role in the crew, and still apart of the M3 no doubt but I do think Zoro is closer to Luffy than Sanji is to Zoro. This is coming from someone who didn't believe that as far back as Fishman Island.

Pre skip though Zoro just barely edged Sanji out IMO. Oda highlighted them at Ennies Lobby as being nigh equal (Kaku had 20 more doriki but Jyabura was the more experienced Fruit user, zoro beat Kaku with high diff, Sanji beat Jyabura with Midd diff.), and then Oda made sure he had Sanji strut his strength in TB being able to deflect Oar's Bazooka, and having him stand up to Kuma along with Zoro.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 6, 2015)

Kaiser said:


>



You know what I find weird.


Sanji was going at it with Vergo and Tagashi doesn't even bother to comment on his strength.


Yet Zoro one shots Monet with his mind and her panties are soaking wet.



Wat?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 6, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:


> You know what I find weird.
> 
> 
> Sanji was going at it with Vergo and Tagashi doesn't even bother to comment on his strength.
> ...



She addressed the SHs as a whole, remarking on how strong *they* have gotten... after seeing Sanji take on Vergo (her base commander), and Zoro take out Monet.


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## trance (Mar 6, 2015)

I also think that Zoro is a bit closer to Luffy than he is to Sanji. Still all on the same general level, though. That should go without saying.


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## Amol (Mar 6, 2015)

Luffy is The Strongest.
Zoro is Second Strongest.
Sanji is Third Strongest.
Luffy High(mid) diffs Zoro.
Luffy High(low) diffs Sanji.
Zoro is closer to Luffy than Sanji.
Sanji is still part of M3.
And you are a goddamn moron if you think Zoro mid diffs Sanji .
That's all.


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## trance (Mar 6, 2015)

Wait. Exactly _why_ were the Admirals brought up?


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## Kaiser (Mar 6, 2015)

Amol said:


> Luffy is The Strongest.
> Zoro is Second Strongest.
> Sanji is Third Strongest.
> Luffy High(mid) diffs Zoro.
> ...


I don't remember someone saying Zoro could mid diff Sanji. He'd high diff him. Though i disagree with your strength evaluation mainly because i think Luffy can actually mid diff Sanji, at least if he is serious


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## Amol (Mar 6, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> I don't remember someone saying Zoro could mid diff Sanji. He'd high diff him. Though i disagree with your strength evaluation mainly because i think Luffy can actually mid diff Sanji, at least if he is serious


Then you missed lots of posts since last week. I can show you 2 dozen posts saying that Zoro mid diffs Sanji.
You just have to check any thread with Zoro and Sanji being in title .
And no Luffy is also not mid diffing Sanji.
Luffy mid diffed Don Chinjao.
Unless you are trying to tell me that it was a low diff fight or Sanji is as strong as Chinjao.


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## Kaiser (Mar 6, 2015)

Amol said:


> Then you missed lots of posts since last week. I can show you 2 dozen posts saying that Zoro mid diffs Sanji.
> You just have to check any thread with Zoro and Sanji being in title .
> And no Luffy is also not mid diffing Sanji.
> Luffy mid diffed Don Chinjao.
> Unless you are trying to tell me that it was a low diff fight or Sanji is as strong as Chinjao.


Well unless you're talking about usual trolls that shouldn't be taken seriously, i don't remember a serious poster actually saying this(though i may be wrong)

And i actually see nothing wrong in the fact Luffy can actually do that to Sanji. Pretimeskip alone, the difficulty couldn't go above high for Luffy and he got better training. Hell Sanji himself emphasized the fact that training with a legend like Rayleigh may have made him incredibly strong, so i think he increased the gap with Sanji after the timeskip and it's not a bad thing really when you know he is the third strongest in the crew. Not many pirate crew possess a third strongest fighter of this caliber.

So yes i actually think Sanji is around Coloseum Chinjao's level


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## Lawliet (Mar 6, 2015)

Zoro mid diff Sanji it's not even funny


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## Kishido (Mar 6, 2015)

Luffy >= Zoro > Sanji


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## Freechoice (Mar 6, 2015)

Luffy > Zoro > Sanji


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## Lawliet (Mar 6, 2015)

Kishido said:


> Luffy >= Zoro > Sanji



See. This is a real Sanji fan. He loves him for who he is. He doesn't need him to be as strong as Zoro. He doesn't need him to be as strong as Luffy. He loves him the way he is, because that's how you love a character. We know Zoro would lose to the likes of the admirals, we still love him even though it hurts our hearts to admit it. Just admit that Luffy and Zoro are above Sanji in strength. It will hurt for a bit, but it's all good my darlings. cuz Sanji will have his time someday.


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## Coruscation (Mar 6, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _It's not an ordinary scene and it's Zoro's most impactful act as the First Mate. If anyone had any doubt up to that point in regards to his role as the First Mate, those doubts should have disappeared. It's a powerful scene, and wonderful act of self sacrifice, it once again gives Zoro that edge over Sanji, but anything else beyond this, any other conclusion in terms of overall strength disparity between Luffy and Zoro is not implied, and one must come with the mindset that it's already there or should be there in order to find it. TB says more about Zoro and Sanji being separated by a single step than it does about the gap between Luffy and either of them._



Then we are at an impasse. You are unwilling to look at anything beyond the surface of the scene and can't see the deliberate in Zoro specifically being the one to suffer Luffy's pain. It's not like Thriller Bark is only about that scene either. Zoro also got a new power-up whilst Sanji didn't, but you don't care about that. Just the following arc Zoro was also grouped together with Luffy and set aside from Sanji in what's possibly one of the most prominent ways ever. But neither of those things fit your desired picture so you ignore them, pretend they don't matter, prioritize only what you think does. Even though it goes hand-in-hand with Zoro then getting to make the sacrifice necessary to "take Luffy's place" (not a wording Oda chose randomly). Zoro took on that pain and was never even healed until the timeskip, but this gives him absolutely nothing over Sanji in your view. I am beyond certain that if someone argued for Sanji being treated like this - with so many efforts and things over another character supposed to be completely ignored - you would be appalled but you can't stop from doing it to Zoro because it's necessary for your preferred scenario.



> That's not through the group's actions and i already accepted your various examples having a value, i simply disagree with the extent of that value. Zoro is closer to Luffy than Sanji is, naturally he will qualify to match him in certain aspects more so than the next guy in the line. If we are to compare the gaps between them we must look at the group as a whole, together, and in those examples the credit goes to Luffy. Yeah you can argue that Zoro's destructive power is above Sanji's ( hopefully while not thinking that the destructive power alone is the extent of a fighters overall strength ) and that his cut on the Kraken was more impressive, and sure someone who supports Sanji might claim that Sanji's feat was that much more impressive because he withstood water pressure that would have destroyed the Sunny in a second without the coating, or even a submarine, and that he could produce that much fire underwater. You can go back and forth but at the end of the day, in these group examples meant to show the groups dynamic, superior portrayal goes in Luffy's favor. He's the one that KO's the enemy, destroys a Pacifista while they share one, moves towards the leader while they stop the subordinates that try to attack their Captain, etc.



It's not just the group's actions as a trio that matters. I'm sorry but you don't get to shut out whatever sources are inconvenient to you. As I've already described, your interpretations are highly arguable as well and nowhere near as clear cut as you think, whilst there's been absolutely no refutation of mine, presumably because no one really can refute the weight of Oda giving Luffy & Zoro similar trainers as the only ones in the crew, propping them up as SNs, etc. There is *nothing* saying these "M3" scenes are meant to portray Zoro as closer to Sanji than Luffy. Nothing. It's an absolute fabrication. It doesn't follow logically. You're simply choosing to take on an interpretation based on geographical positions and making that the end-all, be-all. This dynamic existed as far back as East Blue but it would practically take a madman to argue Sanji was closer to Zoro at that point. So it's not what it shows.

Your kraken argument doesn't work. If you want to argue Sanji's feat is >= Zoro's you'd have to argue it's more impressive than Luffy's. Because Zoro would clearly have replicated Luffy's feat had he actually aimed for the head. Luffy was only more impressive here because of circumstances, not because of an actual difference in strength. Such is often M3 portrayal.



> If the difference would be as small as Akainu vs Aokiji, i would agree. If you have a problem with Zoro, the right hand man of Luffy, needing very high difficulty to defeat the left hand man and consider that to be shameful because he is not as intelligent as the left hand man, i disagree.[/I]



It's not exclusively intelligence. It's one thing upon another elevating Zoro over Sanji on a logical and thematic level. It simply makes no sense for Zoro to be only slightly stronger than Sanji, which, yes, is what "very high difficulty" is to me. As the Pirate Hunter stated earlier, the only argument your side can make is "look how far ahead Luffy is, now Zoro is stuck with Sanji". You never actually reason about how it makes sense, logically, thematically, for their characters, for their roles in the story, based on their actions in the story, for Zoro to be only slightly above Sanji and closer to him than to his captain. Every single one these logical and thematic points, you ignore, because they're inconvenient for you.


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## Pirao (Mar 6, 2015)

Luffy>Zoro>Sanji, but Zoro is closer to Luffy than to Sanji. If Luffy is a 100, Zoro would be a 98 and Sanji a 94, something like that.


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## Freechoice (Mar 6, 2015)

oOLawlietOo said:


> See. This is a real Sanji fan. He loves him for who he is. He doesn't need him to be as strong as Zoro. He doesn't need him to be as strong as Luffy. He loves him the way he is, because that's how you love a character. We know Zoro would lose to the likes of the admirals, we still love him even though it hurts our hearts to admit it. Just admit that Luffy and Zoro are above Sanji in strength. It will hurt for a bit, but it's all good my darlings. cuz Sanji will have his time someday.



Nah only the strong are deserving of love

It's why Garp is my fav character

He's the strongest ever

Stronger than Coruscation and Sir Curlyhat combined


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## Lawliet (Mar 6, 2015)

Coru's posts about Zoro makes me wanna wank him more.

and Garp is life. They need to have a spinoff about Garp and Chopper exploring the world together.


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## Freechoice (Mar 6, 2015)

He has told me at least three dozen times that Zoro is his favourite character

Bias exposed


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## Lawliet (Mar 6, 2015)

How can you not have Zoro as your favorite character. 

Handsome? Check
Strong? Check
Manly? Check
Drinks? Check


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## Freechoice (Mar 6, 2015)

Garp is all those but multiplied by tenfold though

Except maybe drinking

not to mention you get minus manly points for using a weapon instead of fists


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## MrWano (Mar 6, 2015)

Garp loves crackers though, so >>>


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## Freechoice (Mar 6, 2015)

crackers are the manliest of baked goods.


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## Lawliet (Mar 6, 2015)

What do you think Dragon's favorite food/drink is.


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## MrWano (Mar 6, 2015)

Lol said:


> crackers are the manliest of baked goods.



Damn right


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## Lawliet (Mar 6, 2015)

Saying TB pictures the closeness of Zoro and Sanji more than it does Zoro and Luffy is not only ignoring the obvious, it's insulting the human brain.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 6, 2015)

_In your quest to put Zoro in the exact same line as Luffy you guys don't seem to realize the significance of someone proving his worth as First Mate of someone like Luffy. To have the willingness and ability to shoulder your Captain through the most difficult situations. That’s what TB does for Zoro, it’s his most note worthy and establishing act for him as First Mate of the Future Pirate King. That is praiseworthy, admirable and one of the most significant moments for him as a character. Saying that him fully proving his worth as the First Mate of such an exceptional individual is not  „essentially downplaying - Zoro's sacrifice as a simple act of a First Mate”. That is insulting to both Luffy and Zoro because it treats Luffy captaincy and the meaning of being his First Mate as something trivial, easy to accomplish, simple to the point where it’s even a reason of shame not to surpass the requirements for such a role. Acknowledging the fact that Oda went out of his way to have Sanji on that last line of defense alongside Zoro, showcasing his willingness while not confirming his ability to the same extent as the one that proved himself more worthy to be Luffy’s first mate is a simple act of accepting what was shown to us. Accepting Sanji as an exceptional left hand man of the Pirate King, a single step bellow the right hand man, as portrayed by that scene and the praise both  received from Oda through the two spectators, does not take anything away from Zoro. 

Zoro got a new sword in TB while Luffy and Sanji, unlike Zoro, improved upon their EL trump card. It’s different means of increasing one’s strength, it doesn’t make Zoro’s more significant. After the time skip again Luffy and Sanji fully mastered their EL trump cards to the point it has become their regular fighting style, while Zoro’s path is different.  There’s no better or worse, it’s different. I already addressed the Supernova issue, it doesn’t thematically  fit with Sanji’s character keeping a low profile and Zoro himself is only the second last to make the list based on it’s requirements, while Luffy is only second to Kid. Admitting that it’s not downplaying Zoro, it’s a great accomplishment to even make the list, it shows his worth of being the second strongest and First Mate of someone like Luffy. If the second strongest barely makes the list, it makes perfect sense for the third strongest not to. There’s significance to Zoro and Luffy having famous trainers as well, and again another reason to give Zoro the edge over Sanji, which makes perfect sense to have continuity here with the stronger guy being confirmed to have that edge. Since we are talking about training and development, wouldn’t you also find some significance in what i already mentioned, the way Luffy and Sanji, unlike Zoro, share similarities in the way they improved to the point where they turned their EL trump cards into their currently basic fighting style ? I didn’t shut out any other sources mentioned, i explained their relevance, the way it fit’s with the way the M3 interact with each other in terms of personalities and accepted the fact that it confirms Zoro as second strongest to Luffy. If you can’t see the clear pattern involved in their group actions though, the ones where they are separated and focused on, and the difference in portrayal between Luffy and the other two M3 members, there’s not much i can do about it. The author goes out of his way to paint the group’s picture for us and i’m simply looking at the picture he painted. That is at least how i see it. I am not going to claim that i’m above being wrong and it’s perfectly fine to have a different opinion than me.
_


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## Coruscation (Mar 6, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:
			
		

> In your quest to put Zoro in the exact same line as Luffy you guys don't seem to realize the significance of someone proving his worth as First Mate of someone like Luffy. To have the willingness and ability to shoulder your Captain through the most difficult situations. That’s what TB does for Zoro, it’s his most note worthy and establishing act for him as First Mate of the Future Pirate King. That is praiseworthy, admirable and one of the most significant moments for him as a character. Saying that him fully proving his worth as the First Mate of such an exceptional individual is not „essentially downplaying - Zoro's sacrifice as a simple act of a First Mate”. That is insulting to both Luffy and Zoro because it treats Luffy captaincy and the meaning of being his First Mate as something trivial, easy to accomplish, simple to the point where it’s even a reason of shame not to surpass the requirements for such a role. Acknowledging the fact that Oda went out of his way to have Sanji on that last line of defense alongside Zoro, showcasing his willingness while not confirming his ability to the same extent as the one that proved himself more worthy to be Luffy’s first mate is a simple act of accepting what was shown to us. Accepting Sanji as an exceptional left hand man of the Pirate King, a single step bellow the right hand man, as portrayed by that scene and the praise both received from Oda through the two spectators, does not take anything away from Zoro.



The Pirate Hunter explained this perfectly.

It is frankly speaking ludicrous to interpret Thriller Bark as implying Zoro is closer to Sanji, who could not do what he did, than Zoro is to Luffy, the man whose pain (that KO'd him) he took on top of his own and still stood on his two feet, conscious. Zoro took ALL of Luffy's pain, on TOP of his own. He had to take his pain to take his place. This comes at the heels of an arc where sacrifice of his own health to protect the crew became a big theme for Luffy. Now Zoro sacrificed his own health to protect Luffy. And this you conclude was meant to be a stronger Zoro/Sanji moment than a Zoro/Luffy moment. Absurd. Ludicrous. It was, *at its core*, a Luffy/Zoro moment. Sanji got to chime in to highlight his also exceptional nature and make clear this isn't a case of him falling drastically behind. But at the end of the day it was a Luffy/Zoro moment. And you try to call it *more* of a Zoro/Sanji moment. It's frankly insulting and shows a complete lack of vision with regard to the symbolism of the moment.



> I already addressed the Supernova issue, it doesn’t thematically fit with Sanji’s character keeping a low profile and Zoro himself is only the second last to make the list based on it’s requirements, while Luffy is only second to Kid. Admitting that it’s not downplaying Zoro, it’s a great accomplishment to even make the list, it shows his worth of being the second strongest and First Mate of someone like Luffy.



So _now_ "thematically fit with character" becomes an argument, does it? How convenient. It goes to show your selective reading and double standards. You don't give any credit to how Zoro's numerous character traits and roles in the story suggest that he should be closer to Luffy than to Sanji but as soon as a thematic argument can be used for Sanji you leap on it? Zoro being made a Supernova, being set aside together with his captain as countless times before, runs directly in the face of the idea that he is closer to Sanji. It's a sublime example of what I've been saying all this time: *when it comes to the most significant moments, the biggest, most notable ones, Luffy and Zoro are the ones set aside together.* This was a decision that has spanned hundreds of chapters by now. Here we've got the M3 but only two of them were set aside to be highlighted as the truly biggest guns of the upcoming new era. Much like with the timeskip training Oda set Luffy and Zoro aside in a group of their own, in one of the most important decisions of the story, apart from Sanji.

And now you're stooping to citing Zoro's lower bounty as an argument? He is a subordinate. He is always going to have a lower bounty. If this is a viable argument here what do the bounties after Arabasta say about Sanji and Zoro?



> Zoro got a new sword in TB while Luffy and Sanji, unlike Zoro, improved upon their EL trump card. It’s different means of increasing one’s strength, it doesn’t make Zoro’s more significant.



No, Sanji didn't. You're twisting everything to fit your picture. Luffy got Gear Stacking. A clear new power-up emphasized as such. Zoro got Shusui. A clear new power-up emphasized as such. Sanji? Sanji simply kicked using DJ. That is not a power-up. It was never highlighted as such. It's just a different move with DJ, showing more of its potential that never got the chance to be highlighted in EL because neither Zoro nor Sanji were pushed far enough.



> Since we are talking about training and development, wouldn’t you also find some significance in what i already mentioned, the way Luffy and Sanji, unlike Zoro, share similarities in the way they improved to the point where they turned their EL trump cards into their currently basic fighting style ?



That is the most desperate stretch I have ever seen on this subject. That is nothing but _mechanics_. It has nothing to do with comparative strength levels, character, roles in the story, themes etc.



> If you can’t see the clear pattern involved in their group actions though, the ones where they are separated and focused on, and the difference in portrayal between Luffy and the other two M3 members, there’s not much i can do about it.



I see it and have by this point multiple times explained why it doesn't somehow *override* thematic and logical evidence from multiple different angles as well as much portrayal in the story.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 6, 2015)

_This is turning into a "No, you're wrong. My understanding of various events it's clearly better." I'm seeing your points and i do find a great deal of significance in most of them. I don't belittle them and i acknowledge Zoro's ability to step up as without a doubt the man fit to be the First Mate of the future Pirate King. It's something Sanji can not contest and Zoro is, without a doubt the second strongest Straw Hat. I don't think there's much point in continuing with similar posts, going back and forth while basically saying the same thing. I respect your effort and your opinion, and it's definitely not that outrageous of an opinion to have. It's my belief that Luffy is ahead and will probably slightly increase the gap by the end of the story, but if i'm proven wrong, as soon as i come to that conclusion i will accept it as such and admit your analysis and understanding of past events were superior to mine._


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## HaxHax (Mar 6, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> The Pirate Hunter explained this perfectly.
> 
> It is frankly speaking ludicrous to interpret Thriller Bark as implying Zoro is closer to Sanji, who could not do what he did, than Zoro is to Luffy, the man whose pain (that KO'd him) he took on top of his own and still stood on his two feet, conscious. Zoro took ALL of Luffy's pain, on TOP of his own. He had to take his pain to take his place. This comes at the heels of an arc where sacrifice of his own health to protect the crew became a big theme for Luffy. Now Zoro sacrificed his own health to protect Luffy. And this you conclude was meant to be a stronger Zoro/Sanji moment than a Zoro/Luffy moment. Absurd. Ludicrous. It was, *at its core*, a Luffy/Zoro moment. Sanji got to chime in to highlight his also exceptional nature and make clear this isn't a case of him falling drastically behind. But at the end of the day it was a Luffy/Zoro moment. And you try to call it *more* of a Zoro/Sanji moment. It's frankly insulting and shows a complete lack of vision with regard to the symbolism of the moment.
> 
> ...



Is any of this combat strength related? No? Alright. I see. It's just more of your make-believe material. All your posts are 100% speculative. We need a fanfiction section for this shit.

Oh, and as for Thriller Bark - we had another one of those nice moments where Zoro parried a normal unnamed punch from oars with an unnamed attack. And Sanji parried a named moria-powered attack from oars with a named attack. Rest of the crew bar Luffy looking on in awe. Once again shown to match each other's feats while Luffy pulls ahead.


As usual.


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## Kishido (Mar 6, 2015)

I really dunno how people can write a wall text about this after all those years...

Seriously everything is said. Everything is cleared.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 6, 2015)

B-b-bu-but writing a wall of text makes you a good poster


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 6, 2015)

HaxHax said:


> Is any of this combat strength related? No? Alright. I see. It's just more of your make-believe material. All your posts are 100% speculative. We need a fanfiction section for this shit.
> 
> Oh, and as for Thriller Bark - we had another one of those nice moments where Zoro parried a normal unnamed punch from oars with an unnamed attack. And Sanji parried a named moria-powered attack from oars with a named attack. Rest of the crew, bar Luffy looking on in awe. Once again shown to match each other's feats.
> 
> ...



Don't forget the other thriller bark moment where Sanji could only attack Kuma once before he claimed his leg would break if he did it again and failed to make him flinch, yet Zoro was able to  pull off a named attack with no signs of discomfort along with slashing through a little bit of his mechanics


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## Ajin (Mar 6, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:
			
		

> Don't forget the other thriller bark moment where Sanji could only attack Kuma once before he claimed his leg would break if he did it again and failed to make him flinch, yet Zoro was able to pull off a named attack with no signs of discomfort along with slashing through a little bit of his mechanics



And Zoro's swords almost broke against Ryuuma, while Sanji's legs was perfectly fine after contact with Oars' Gomu-Gomu Bazooka. Oh, and you still ignore that Sanji was much more injured than Zoro before fight with Kuma.

Edit. One more thing. 



			
				Jeep Brah said:
			
		

> Sanji could only attack Kuma once before he claimed his leg would break if he did it again *and failed to make him flinch*



This is false. 



Top right corner, you can see clearly that Kuma is unbalanced after being kicked by Sanji. He was in completely different position before that kick:



And please, don't use this shitty translation as evidence, when manga indicates something else.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 6, 2015)

Usopp litteraly says he didn't  flinch.



Can you read?


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## Intus Legere (Mar 6, 2015)

Ajin said:


> This is false.
> 
> 
> 
> Top right corner, you can see clearly that Kuma is unbalanced after being kicked by Sanji. He was in completely different position before that kick:



That was not flinching. Shishi Sonson caused far more of a reaction.


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## Typhon (Mar 6, 2015)

I take back what I said. Wiskey Peak *and* Thriller Bark are sung like Gospel to try and prove Zoro is close to Luffy.


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## Dr. White (Mar 6, 2015)

Intus Legere said:


> That was not flinching. Shishi Sonson caused far more of a reaction.



You can see that Sanji does make him tip back in the scan. Meaning Sanji forced him back a little. Kuma is a scrap combo of a very large man, and hundreds of pounds of steel, he isn't losing his balance for much.

Shi Shi son Son is also one of Zoro's stronger moves. So it would be weird for it not to do alot more than one of Sanji's low end base kicks.


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## Ajin (Mar 6, 2015)

Intus Legere said:
			
		

> That was not flinching. Shishi Sonson caused far more of a reaction.



Ok then, i am not a native speaker so i could misinterpret the word "flinch". But still, Kuma staggered after Sanji kicked him and there was smoke from his mouth. Zoro obviously did it better, but it wasn't that much different. In both cases Kuma took zero damages.


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## Kaiser (Mar 6, 2015)

Typhon said:


> I take back what I said. Wiskey Peak *and* Thriller Bark are sung like Gospel to try and prove Zoro is close to Luffy.


He basically took Luffy's place in thriller bark. Hell Kuma himself said as much. It was THE importance of that scene.


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## Coruscation (Mar 6, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _This is turning into a "No, you're wrong. My understanding of various events it's clearly better." I'm seeing your points and i do find a great deal of significance in most of them. I don't belittle them and i acknowledge Zoro's ability to step up as without a doubt the man fit to be the First Mate of the future Pirate King. It's something Sanji can not contest and Zoro is, without a doubt the second strongest Straw Hat. I don't think there's much point in continuing with similar posts, going back and forth while basically saying the same thing. I respect your effort and your opinion, and it's definitely not that outrageous of an opinion to have. It's my belief that Luffy is ahead and will probably slightly increase the gap by the end of the story, but if i'm proven wrong, as soon as i come to that conclusion i will accept it as such and admit your analysis and understanding of past events were superior to mine._



I agree it's going in that direction. Thanks for the discussion. I will continue to find it extremely difficult to believe that Zoro is supposed to be written as more closely tied to Sanji than to Luffy in terms of strength when it goes against so much on a thematic, character-, and story-related level, but my mind is not completely closed to the possibility either. Perhaps more importantly, it should be reiterated that I don't believe the gaps between the M3 are, or ever have been 100%, static, as it makes no logical sense for them to be. What will always remain true is that they can all be viewed as on a close level overall, the specifics from then on will vary, but it is my firm belief based on the way Zoro's character is designed and his roles in the story that Zoro has generally been and will generally continue to be more closely tied to his captain, on so many levels from personality, goal, character, portrayal and so forth.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 6, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> You can see that Sanji does make him tip back in the scan. Meaning *Sanji forced him back a little.* Kuma is a scrap combo of a very large man, and hundreds of pounds of steel, he isn't losing his balance for much.
> 
> Shi Shi son Son is also one of Zoro's stronger moves. So it would be weird for it not to do alot more than one of Sanji's low end base kicks.



​


Ajin said:


> Ok then, i am not native speaker so i could misinterpret the word "flinch". *But still, Kuma staggered after Sanji kicked him and there was smoke from his mouth.* Zoro obviously did it better, but it wasn't that much different. In both cases Kuma took zero damages.



​

Read

Verb
1.
*look at and comprehend* the meaning of (written or printed matter) by mentally interpreting the characters or symbols of which it is composed.
"it's the best novel I've ever read"
synonyms:	peruse, study, scrutinize, look through


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## Coruscation (Mar 6, 2015)

Here is Stephen's translation of the scene:



			
				Stephen's translation said:
			
		

> Usopp: He didn't even falter from Sanji's kick!!!
> What the hell's going on?!



Here is the definition of falter:



			
				thefreedictionary said:
			
		

> 1. To be unsteady in purpose or action, as from loss of courage or confidence; waver: "She never faltered in her resolution to regain her old position" (Louis Auchincloss).
> 2. To speak hesitatingly; stammer: faltered in reciting the poem.
> 3.
> a. To move unsteadily or haltingly; stumble: The racehorse faltered right after the start.
> b. To become weak, ineffective, or unsteady, especially in performance: The economy faltered in the second quarter. His memory began to falter.



Kuma did not go as far as to stumble or become unsteady, but his head was slightly pushed back by the force of the kick as can be visually observed. These are the facts based on a reliable translation.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 6, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Perhaps more importantly, it should be reiterated that I don't believe the gaps between the M3 are, or ever have been 100%, static, as it makes no logical sense for them to be. What will always remain true is that they can all be viewed as on a close level overall, the specifics from then on will vary.



_We are at least in agreement when it comes to this part and i as well thank you for the discussion._


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## Ajin (Mar 6, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Kuma did not go as far as to stumble or become unsteady, but his head was slightly pushed back by the force of the kick as can be visually observed. These are the facts based on a reliable translation.



Fine for me. I just find that both Zoro and Sanji's scene are pretty familiar to each other.


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## Dr. White (Mar 6, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:


> ​
> 
> Read
> 
> ...



So your argument is that Usopp's perception of what happened comes A priori to visually seeing something on panel?

So I guess I'm also suppossed to take it as Aokiji's dead because an observing fodder claimed Aokiji died from WB's Haki Bisento Slash?


So then who did akainu fight? ghost Aokiji?

I think you're onto something


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 6, 2015)

Note: Concasse (which sanji used against Kuma) is not Zoro's equivalent of Shishison son (which was zoro's first steel cutter move, used against Daz Bones as a finisher). Veau shot (finsiher against Bon clay), anti manner kick course, mutton shot are his stronger moves which he didn't use against Kuma. So it's obvious that concasse would not have as much of an effect on Kuma as SS SS would 

Not to mention, Diable jambe was not used which would perhaps have a better effect because of the heat.

Despite this, we see Kuma destabilized from the force of the kick because his stance indicates that.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 6, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> So your argument is that Usopp's perception of what happened comes A priori to visually seeing something on panel?
> 
> So I guess I'm also suppossed to take it as Aokiji's dead because an observing fodder claimed Aokiji died from WB's Haki Bisento Slash?
> 
> ...



You're wrong.


You'd have a point if a subordinate close to Aokiji in a similar sense to Usopp & Zoro said that though.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 6, 2015)

Ajin said:


> Fine for me. I just find that both Zoro and Sanji's scene are pretty familiar to each other.



Kuma made vocal strain when he was attacked by Zoro.





Sanji's attack isn't even comparable.


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## Dr. White (Mar 6, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:


> You're wrong.
> 
> 
> You'd have a point if a subordinate close to Aokiji in a similar sense to Usopp & Zoro said that though.



2/10 troll, no effort whatsoever.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 6, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:


> You're wrong.
> 
> 
> You'd have a point if a subordinate close to Aokiji in a similar sense to Usopp & Zoro said that though.



What do mean by 'close' here? Is this you saying in terms of distance, or relationship?


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 6, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> What do mean by 'close' here? Is this you saying in terms of distance, or relationship?



Relationship.

I.e if a marine subordinate who was shown to know Aokiji  at least Somewhat screamed something like that it'd have much more creditability.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 6, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:


> Relationship.
> 
> I.e if a marine subordinate who was shown to know Aokiji  at least Somewhat screamed something like that it'd have much more creditability.



I see. But that is based on wrong information. A marine didn't scream that, rather a pirate did. The random pirate should be no closer to Aokiji than Usopp was to Kuma. So by your premise, usopp's words hold not water either.


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## Kishido (Mar 6, 2015)

I got a blue crab and evolved my Sanji into Diable Jambe Sanji in the time of this discussion <3


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## Ajin (Mar 6, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:


> Kuma made vocal strain when he was attacked by Zoro.
> Sanji's attack isn't even comparable.



Cool, but at the end of the day, they both failed to hurt him.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 6, 2015)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I see. But that is based on wrong information. A marine didn't scream that, rather a pirate did. The random pirate should be no closer to Aokiji than Usopp was to Kuma. So by your premise, usopp's words hold not water either.



It's actually the opposite.


Usopp is more inclined to support Sanji not the other way around.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 6, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:


> It's actually the opposite.
> 
> 
> Usopp is more inclined to support Sanji not the other way around.



Yes, which is why Usopp said "Oh man he broke his skull!" first. The random pirate too is more likely to support WB, which is why he said what he did. However Aokiji personally corrected that pirate that no, WB did not damage him. We do not see what that pirate said later, because it would redundant from a narrative/dialogue persective


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## Intus Legere (Mar 6, 2015)

I'm not trying to derogate Sanji, all I'm saying is that, as far as feats and portrayal are concerned, Zoro was something else in Thriller Bark. He fought against Kuma like a beast, and unless Kuma is weaker than I think or didn't was messing around more than it seems, Zoro shouldn't have done half of what he did there.



Ajin said:


> Ok then, i am not a native speaker so i could misinterpret the word "flinch". But still, Kuma staggered after Sanji kicked him and there was smoke from his mouth. Zoro obviously did it better, but it wasn't that much different. In both cases Kuma took zero damages.



I'm not a native speaker either, and I may be wrong about this. (I learned what flinching is from Pokemon, Missingno is flinching meant he'd lose his turn). 

Anyway, I'd say that he was pushed back (can't deny that, and kudos for pointing out), but there was no sign of pain or even surprise there. The "Uuugh" in Zoro's scene means a lot, he wasn't simply pushed back there, and even if that wasn't a sign of damage, he did flinch.



Dr. White said:


> You can see that Sanji does make him tip back in the scan. Meaning Sanji forced him back a little. Kuma is a scrap combo of a very large man, and hundreds of pounds of steel, he isn't losing his balance for much.
> 
> Shi Shi son Son is also one of Zoro's stronger moves. So it would be weird for it not to do alot more than one of Sanji's low end base kicks.



Agreed with the first paragraph, Sanji did push him back, and I wouldn't take away from his feat.

As for the second paragraph, why is Shi Shi Son Son is a more special move than Concasse? As I see it, it's a particularly fast attack (one sword, drawing in _iai_ style), but not a particularly strong one. If Zoro needs strength, then he'd use Santoryu (Ougi) or, at that point, Asura.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 6, 2015)

Intus Legere;53037938



As for the second paragraph said:
			
		

> iai[/I] style), but not a particularly strong one. If Zoro needs strength, then he'd use Santoryu (Ougi) or, at that point, Asura.



I address that here:



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Note: Concasse (which sanji used against Kuma) is not Zoro's equivalent of Shishison son (which was zoro's first steel cutter move, used against Daz Bones as a finisher). Veau shot (finsiher against Bon clay), anti manner kick course, mutton shot are his stronger moves which he didn't use against Kuma. So it's obvious that concasse would not have as much of an effect on Kuma as SS SS would
> 
> Not to mention, Diable jambe was not used which would perhaps have a better effect because of the heat.
> 
> Despite this, we see Kuma destabilized from the force of the kick because his stance indicates that.


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## Intus Legere (Mar 6, 2015)

Ichiji: it wasn't the move that could cut steel, but rather Zoro. It is a good finisher because it's a iai move, and therefore reminscing of classical swordfights, with all the posing and whatnot. I acknowledge that it's one of Zoro's more iconic moves, but as I said, I believe it's about speed, as a iai is meant to be.

Then again, there isn't much about a sword move, so I don't have much else to say, except... do you really think a Ittoryu move is more powerful than a Santoryu move? Because if so, what's the point of Santoryu? And what's the point of a 108 Pound Hou when he can accomplish the same with a 32 Pound Hou?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 7, 2015)

Intus Legere said:


> Ichiji: it wasn't the move that could cut steel, but rather Zoro. It is a good finisher because it's a iai move, and therefore reminscing of classical swordfights, with all the posing and whatnot. I acknowledge that it's one of Zoro's more iconic moves, but as I said, I believe it's about speed, as a iai is meant to be.
> 
> Then again, there isn't much about a sword move, so I don't have much else to say, except... do you really think a Ittoryu move is more powerful than a Santoryu move? Because if so, what's the point of Santoryu? And what's the point of a 108 Pound Hou when he can accomplish the same with a 32 Pound Hou?



Shishison son: More concentrated single attack that's good for penetrating hard to break surfaces/bodies. Santoryu higher end moves: More overall damage, but individual slashes not as strong so may not penetrate a hard to break surface ie more force but less pressure. Someone gave a good explanation somewhere about this with numbers .

Besides, if Zoro could use a santouryu move like onigiri or 3000 worlds (sanzen sekai) he would've done it against Daz Bones to beat him.


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## Firo (Mar 9, 2015)

Meh                      .


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## Amol (Mar 9, 2015)

^You just revived this thread.


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## Firo (Mar 9, 2015)

I'm a masochist.


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## Jeep Brah (Mar 9, 2015)

Zoro would low diff Sanji


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## TrolonoaZoro (Mar 10, 2015)

I can't be bother to read the whole essay as I have the attention span of a chicken, but you made a fatal mistake when it comes to analyzing strength. Approaching the question with assumption that Oda doesn't completely and thoroughly answers the question within the details of his fight. 

All those other story element are use merely as summaries of Oda's approach (or how he views them, aka adhering to his take of the character) but not solid statement of them when it comes to power.( Oda like any good writer would do, uses his battle for that) This is why things like "Luffy>>Zoro=>Sanji in EL guise" can be easily proven by wrong by taking into account just a couple of factors into all the "m3" fights. 

I mean how do you just ignore the fact that Oda feels comfortable with taking Zoro's swords when teaming him up with Sanji back Davy back fight and STILL giving Zoro the spotlight and superior feats of slam dunking a giant, with his bare hands? Isn't that a complete assertion of his grand superiority if we view it through the eyes of hype and not feat? But in this, I guess you bring feats to try and make Sanji feel relevant.  "but but sanji can do that with his legs!" He might, but Oda still puts none sword Zoro as the superior, if portrayal was really treated consistently and not as a way to give accolades to characters when they don't have what it takes, that would be a killing blow. 

This rivarly that you need to artificially built up to even think making this distinction require so much efforts gets completely annihilated with that, I feel. (within the context of non actual battling portrayal factors) 

But try and show me one time where Oda has comfortably put Luffy above Zoro, not because Zoro is simply not given a chance to show us what he is made of (aka, Ennies lobby). But because Zoro is given a chance and fails within the context of captain level strength.  Why is it there is no such example of that? 

The only part you could even think of something that resembles that is when both Zoro and Luffy team up to take the tsunami in water seven, and Luffy's rocket appears to put more "weight" than Zoro's 108 cannon. But we just had Oda focus on how strong Zoro's 108 had gotten since Skypea and thus it wouldn't really be an actual number. (Buddhist reference take priority over changing the name every time he grows in strength) 

There is no such thing as fluctuating power levels. There is only Zoro?Luffy>>>>>Sanji, who time and time again gets fodderize by people who can't fodderize the other two unless they have an inherent advantage. Like Zoro being half dead when facing Arlong. And that was Sanji's first arc as a strawhat.  His first arc is getting fodderize by a guy who fears Zoro, just think about that and your beautiful rivalry. 

The myth of Sanji being around the other two because he is the third strongest strawhat is just that, a myth. Not feat, not portrayal. Giving so many letters to try and answer this just reinforces the awful premise.

Zoro's character is one that Oda treat with as much respect as he treats legendary pirates like Whitebeard, who mimic his defiance in the face of death. That is because Oda has always treated Zoro as one in a million. He's up there in potential with these people and Oda has never in this manga, imply that Zoro fell short when it comes to becoming a truly legendary pirate. He makes up the fact that he's a subordinate to Luffy by giving him that amazing portrayal  so many feel butthurt about.  

Fucking thinking that Sanji is comparable to legendary pirate material in itself is fucking massive wank.


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## Extravlad (Mar 12, 2015)

Why is a thread like that needed?
Zoro would oneshots Sanji.


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## DavyChan (Mar 12, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> Why is a thread like that needed?
> Zoro would oneshots Sanji.



omg ur back. 0.0


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