# Sora vs. Aqua



## Dark Evangel (Nov 17, 2010)

Who wins this fight?


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## noobthemusical (Nov 17, 2010)

Probably Aqua.

Sure Sora is skilled, and all.

But his best individual fight is with Xemnas. Who should at best be a little more than 50% of Terranort's power. Who Aqua was able to beat.

Also Aqua is the same level as Terra, Terra should be stronger than his Sentiment which if you read his journal entry it states his "
The armor covering his body can master the Keyblade's power much more than Sora can"

So yeah I'd give it to her.


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## Alucardemi (Nov 17, 2010)

noobthemusical said:


> Probably Aqua.
> 
> Sure Sora is skilled, and all.
> 
> ...



Im curious as i dont know much about KH, but is the power differences between terra and sora that big??? I thought sora had like, incredible feats in KH. Is Terranort that more powefull than Xemnas??


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 17, 2010)

Alucardemi said:


> Is Terranort that more powefull than Xemnas??



probably stronger than regular Xemnas, though I doubt Terranort is more powerful than Final Form Xemnas


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## Alucardemi (Nov 17, 2010)

^^ that`s what i was wondering, as FF Xemnas took sora and riku to beat. I actually dont know aqua`s feats so i cant judge.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 17, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> probably stronger than regular Xemnas, though I doubt Terranort is more powerful than Final Form Xemnas



Terranort is not exactly that strong but still pretty damn tough. Although compared to normal Xehanort who's strong enough to probably Lifewipe considering he easily wrecked Land of Departure.


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## Omnirix (Nov 17, 2010)

Sora actually stomps. 

Aqua doesn't really have more experience than Sora, in fact its more like the other way around. Sora had like 3 adventures combined with the skills and strength earned by Roxas when he was in Org XIII. Sora faced nobodies much more powerful than heartless and gotten stronger in his 2nd adventure and his strength is further enhanced by fusing with Roxas. Aqua only had one adventure and wander in the darkness fighting heartless(pretty much the same guys) for the past 10 years. 


Here's an important fact, while its true that nobodies and their true selves got split and 50-50 overall power is split. But that doesn't mean nobodies or their true selves couldn't get any stronger or further improve their battle abilities. Sora lost half his power when he created roxas but manage to get strong enough to beat Xehanort's Heartless and Marluxia. As nobodies are stronger than heartless counterparts, Xemnas is superior and not to mention is a lot stronger after Kingdom Hearts merging. 

Aqua is probably pre-KH2 Sora level.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 17, 2010)

Heroic Trunks said:


> Sora actually stomps.
> 
> Aqua doesn't really have more experience than Sora, in fact its more like the other way around. Sora had like 3 adventures combined with the skills and strength earned by Roxas when he was in Org XIII. Sora faced nobodies much more powerful than heartless and gotten stronger in his 2nd adventure and his strength is further enhanced by fusing with Roxas. Aqua only had one adventure and wander in the darkness fighting heartless(pretty much the same guys) for the past 10 years.
> 
> ...


She actually has proper training compared to Sora, he wouldn't know immediately that you can use the Keyblade to travel and create portals with it.


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## Omnirix (Nov 17, 2010)

basch71 said:


> She actually has proper training compared to Sora, he wouldn't know immediately that you can use the Keyblade to travel and create portals with it.



I am talking combat wise. Sora clearly had more experience in facing opponents in multiple diversities much more than Aqua. From heartless, to nobodies(nobodies are much stronger than heartless), to Org XIII, to Sephiroth, etc....

Sora also got further training from Phil and magic training from Donald Duck. That and also Sora got the experience and training Roxas obtained from Org XIII when they fully fused.


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## Bender (Nov 17, 2010)

Sora wins 

Twice as strong-willed as Aqua and has a crapload more impressive-feats than her.


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## Shooting burst stream (Nov 17, 2010)

Giving it to Sora due to more experience in combat. Aqua is the superior mage but that's all she has on Sora, once Sora closes the gap between himself and Aqua, she is finished as she is sorely lacking in close combat ability in comparison to Sora, especially if this is post fusing with Roxas.


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## Alucardemi (Nov 17, 2010)

Well i give sora my vote too, due to superior feats.


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## Stunna (Nov 17, 2010)

Actually, Sora has more proper training than Aqua, if you include 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Ven's training as well.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 17, 2010)

Stunna said:


> Actually, Sora has more proper training than Aqua, if you include
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Except he came in after Terra and Aqua. They were his senior.

And Sora doesn't have stuff like his memories or latent knowledge about the Keyblade and other abilities it possesses. Only the ability to wield one.


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## Purpledrank (Nov 17, 2010)

Pretty easy to beat Terra probably just gameplay mechanics though and I don't know if you can consider final mix canon.


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## ensoriki (Nov 18, 2010)

Sora doesn't have any of Ven's training people need to actually play the friggen games and read the plot.

Terra, Aqua and Ventus fought stronger foes.

Canonically Aqua would of been the one to fight both VLS and MF, considering that MF is confirmed to exist as well by Nomura and in terms of timeline Aqua is the only person who could fight the two. So if MF exists and was at LoD the only person who could've beaten him was Aqua.

Her acrobatics, and her defeating Hades and the Ice titan simultaneously help her cause.
KH feats are legit mostly gameplay and if you go by that her speed in Ghost Drive speaks for itself.
Even then just by the opponents she beat. Incomplete X-blade Vanitas, Braig, VLS, MF, Terranort and Shadow. She should be vastly superior. Terranort was complete, Xemnas and Ansem SoD are not as well as Terranort having all of his memories as Master Xehanort at the time. Unless I missed something and he regained those memories after the battle with Aqua.

Xemnas getting some power from KH means nothing.
The girl fought Vanitas with the X-blade, his lingering spirit, and Terranort. Though Aqua did need Mickey's support to compete with Vanitas.
Vanitas was more than half of Ven's heart as well.
Unless Kh2 Sora could contend with the true power of Xehanort when he had issues with Xemnas in KH.



> Pretty easy to beat Terra probably just gameplay mechanics though and I don't know if you can consider final mix canon.


Sora fighting Xemnas in KH1 Final Mix and Sora fighting Terra in KH2 Final mix is canon. However from what I can tell he does not win either fight, Xemnas was testing him and Terra was impressed by him.
Terra was expecting Riku not Sora and this is confirmed in BBS.

Terra's ridiculously strong just looking at his feat.

Fighting without heart and body was never seen before, it didn't even seem possible.
Terra's heart was IN his body (and still is) and Xehanort came in.
LS should not be possible at all yet it happened and he beat someone with eons of skill put into a fresh new body as just a suit of armor.




> I am talking combat wise. Sora clearly had more experience in facing opponents in multiple diversities much more than Aqua. From heartless, to nobodies(nobodies are much stronger than heartless), to Org XIII, to Sephiroth, etc....


Every Final Boss is Xehanort in one shape or another. Both final bosses are Xehanort split in half...how are they more diverse?
Ansem: SOD fought just like terranort, except he's canonically weaker due to the nature of the connection between heart and body. Unless Xemnas and Ansem: SOD regained Master Xehanorts (not Apprentice xehanorts) memories, even their KH empowered counter parts should not hold up to snuff.



> Sora also got further training from Phil and magic training from Donald Duck. That and also Sora got the experience and training Roxas obtained from Org XIII when they fully fused.


Thats nothing.
Phil is a garbage trainer for one.
Two Aqua is a superior mage to Donald Duck so him getting training from Donald does nothing for him.
And Sora did not get ANY of Roxas' memories, he can't, Roxas isn't a normal nobody because he has Ventus' heart.
For Sora to gain Roxas' memories in the organization he would need to access Ventus' heart, he can't possibly do that when he doesn't even realize he has it. Not to mention that having the heart of another does not give you ANY control of it's memories.
Xehanort could not access Terra's memories or Eraqus.
Sora could not access Kairi's or Ventus.
Sora has no recollection of Ventus time in the organization.
Sora has not been trained by another keyblade user at all. Everything he and Riku have is self taught. There just lucky there hearts are so strong, which wont help when Aqua is a  back up to forge the X-blade if things with Ventus didn't work.


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## Omnirix (Nov 18, 2010)

ensoriki said:


> Terra, Aqua and Ventus fought stronger foes.


Um....what?  




ensoriki said:


> Her acrobatics, and her defeating Hades and the Ice titan simultaneously help her cause.


Sora fought stronger villains with better feats than Hades and Ice Titan. Namely Jafar and org XIII members.  



ensoriki said:


> KH feats are legit mostly gameplay and if you go by that her speed in Ghost Drive speaks for itself.


Gameplay doesn't really account for. So you got Sora in cutscene slicing buildings in half like nothing while in gameplay, you use Sora to strike a wall over and over and it still won't break. 



ensoriki said:


> Even then just by the opponents she beat. Incomplete X-blade Vanitas, Braig, VLS, MF, Terranort and Shadow. She should be vastly superior. Terranort was complete, Xemnas and Ansem SoD are not as well as Terranort having all of his memories as Master Xehanort at the time. Unless I missed something and he regained those memories after the battle with Aqua.


Who's to say Xemnas, SoD, or even Xigbar couldn't get stronger by themselves? Xigbar actually got better feats than Kreig. Also you got Sora losing half of his power when he created Roxas but then he's still able to regain his power and strength to beat SoD who was giving his full-powered form trouble when SoD possess Riku. Sora also lost all his skills and strength when he first entered Castle Oblivion, but he regain them and perhaps even more when he fought Marluxia at the end. 

You also got the Org XIII training Roxas and sending him on missions to boost his experience to help them gather more hearts from the heartless. Roxas then became pretty much the 2nd most powerful member of the Org other than Xemnas. (Though its arguable that Saix can be stronger with him using a more complete Kingdom Hearts as his power compared to 358/2 days game since he survive an assault from Riku who one-shotted Roxas)

And then all these experiences combined together to form EoS Sora who is the combination of KH2 Sora and Roxas both are stronger than KH1 Sora. 




ensoriki said:


> Xemnas getting some power from KH means nothing.
> The girl fought Vanitas with the X-blade, his lingering spirit, and Terranort. Though Aqua did need Mickey's support to compete with Vanitas.
> Vanitas was more than half of Ven's heart as well.
> Unless Kh2 Sora could contend with the true power of Xehanort when he had issues with Xemnas in KH.



Mickey ten years ago was still a novice and apprentice. Ten years later he's probably much stronger. And I already addressed that Xemnas can get stronger by himself as well. In fact, him obtaining Kingdom Hearts was exactly WHAT Master Xehanort plans to do in the first place. Why would Master Xehanort gave up his power to obtain something weaker?


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## noobthemusical (Nov 18, 2010)

Stunna said:


> Actually, Sora has more proper training than Aqua, if you include
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



There's no indication that having Ven has given Sora experience.

Hell Ven was sleeping up until Xion died.



> Sora fought stronger villains with better feats than Hades and Ice Titan. Namely Jafar and org XIII members.



Psh we have no real comparison for the Org to them.

Remember Aqua defeated power of darkness Braig. For all we know he could have been far stronger than the other apprentices and Xigbar could be the same. So beating the rest of the Org isn't too great of an achievement.




> Mickey ten years ago was still a novice and apprentice. Ten years later he's probably much stronger. And I already addressed that Xemnas can get stronger by himself as well. In fact, him obtaining Kingdom Hearts was exactly WHAT Master Xehanort plans to do in the first place. Why would Master Xehanort gave up his power to obtain something weaker?



Completely unrelated to the fight but let me point out that the Kingdom Hearts Xemnas was building isn't the true Kingdom Hearts. Nomura has stated that the True one can only be made by the X-blade Wielder summoning it...



> Who's to say Xemnas, SoD, or even Xigbar couldn't get stronger by themselves?



Well Xemnas and SoD lack feats on the level that MX was. Hell SoD hardly did anything that impressive.


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## Bender (Nov 18, 2010)

Ensoriki said:
			
		

> Terra, Aqua and Ventus fought stronger foes.



Sora fought Xenmas in KHII who as Nomura said became the most powerful being existence after absorbing the power of Kingdom Hearts.  







So tell me what was that you were saying about Terra Aqua and Ven facing stronger foes?


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## noobthemusical (Nov 18, 2010)

You never know he might not have thought what would come after that story.

Plus he didn't do that battle alone.


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## Shooting burst stream (Nov 18, 2010)

Wasn't the Xemnas is the most powerfull KH character made long before Brith by sleep was released so it wasn't including Master Xehanort


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## noobthemusical (Nov 18, 2010)

You know when KH3 comes out, if we ever look back at this thread we are all gonna LOL big time thinking Sora could lose to Aqua.

Because Can anyone say Insane power boost to kill Xehanort for real


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## Shooting burst stream (Nov 18, 2010)

noobthemusical said:


> You know when KH3 comes out, if we ever look back at this thread we are all gonna LOL big time thinking Sora could lose to Aqua.
> 
> Because Can anyone say Insane power boost to kill Xehanort for real



I know what you mean, Sora is going to end up being ridiculously strong, so much so that he will probably make even the likes of Sephiroth look like noobs by comparison.


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## Alucardemi (Nov 18, 2010)

noobthemusical said:


> You never know he might not have thought what would come after that story.
> 
> Plus he didn't do that battle alone.



Yes but unfotunately you`ll be dealing in assumption. And creators words inta-beat any feat a character might come up with.

He still fought the strongest and defeated him, in his normal form, but it ws still Xemnas. Plus he has better feats.


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## Bender (Nov 18, 2010)

noobthemusical said:
			
		

> Plus he didn't do that battle alone.



Well yeah at least for the first part of the battle.

However, when it came to the coup de tat that was Sora who ended his life.


EDIT:

Okay we're talking about "facts" NOT "What ifs"

Got that?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 18, 2010)

It kinda makes me wonder when mentioned that saying KH Xemnas was the strongest (probably) but his feats wasn't that impressive compared to Master Xehanort where he wrecked an entire world effortlessly before leaving to the Keyblade Graveyard.


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## ~Avant~ (Nov 18, 2010)

Wasn't it confirmed in story that Aqua>Current Sora?

Aqua>Terranort>Lingering Sentiment=>=Sora


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 18, 2010)

~Avant~ said:


> Wasn't it confirmed in story that Aqua>Current Sora?
> 
> Aqua>Terranort>Lingering Sentiment=>=Sora



Not sure but based on what happened in story, she can definitely hang with Sora and Riku. Feats are a different story for this match.


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## ~Avant~ (Nov 18, 2010)

Well its to be expected that she doesn't have real comparable feats due to the fact the KHII was on a console, and the PSP doesn't have as much power to display real grandiose attacks.

But by powerscaling she should be stronger than Sora. Perhaps she'll even make Riku and Sora her pupils in KH3 and give them some proper training.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 18, 2010)

~Avant~ said:


> Well its to be expected that she doesn't have real comparable feats due to the fact the KHII was on a console, and the PSP doesn't have as much power to display real grandiose attacks.
> 
> *But by powerscaling she should be stronger than Sora. Perhaps she'll even make Riku and Sora her pupils in KH3 and give them some proper training.*



Based on the ending of Coded, it's possible they'll have to do the Master exams in prep for the final battle with Xehanort.


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## ~Avant~ (Nov 18, 2010)

Yeah thats what I was thinking was going to happen. I wonder if they'll do the Master Exam before or after they rescue Ventus though


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## Bender (Nov 18, 2010)

^

So Sora's still the more powerful one?


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## noobthemusical (Nov 18, 2010)

No that would be Reborn Xehanort

Cause you know rule of final boss.


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## ensoriki (Nov 18, 2010)

Bender said:


> ^
> 
> So Sora's still the more powerful one?


How the hell is Sora going to beat Aqua at all? 
Though A>B>C logic does not compute, Sora's not even up to snuff to defeat true Xehanort, hell why do you think they're holding a mark of mastery test for Riku and Sora to see if they are up to snuff.



> Cause you know rule of final boss.


Yet Aqua defeated the person that Sora, Mickey and Riku have to beat...because she and Terra are not there to stop him this time.
Well...Terras heart should still be there to help them.
This whole person Yen-Sid and Mickey are worried about, was someone Mickey couldn't compare to 10 years ago, and had never fought to even know if he was strong enough to compare to.

If current Sora tried to fight Terranort 10 years ago instead of Aqua Terranort would of won and all would be over.
Though Hell in Terranorts further defence of losing to Aqua, Terra's heart was assisting and he seemed more concerned about Terra than Aqua. Though Terra's a monster too.

If Sora can't beat Terranort, VLs or MF hows he going to beat Aqua? 



> Aqua's armor and Keyblade were briefly seen in Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix. They reside in the Chamber of Repose, a room constructed by the Apprentices under Radiant Garden for an as of yet unknown purpose. Xemnas visits the armor often, calling it* "friend"*


Xemnas stronger than Master Xehanort/Terranort Thats nonsense.
Xehanort had years of skill and accumulated power that Xemnas did not inherit. Xemnas cannot even tell that the armor is not his friend, because of the influence of Eraqus/Terra's heart on AX.

This Xemnas without a smidgin of MX/Terranorts skill?
People are honestly calling this guy superior to what Aqua/Terra faced?
yet the whole reason of KH: Reconnect is to find out if Sora & Riku are truly masters  capable of dealing with Xehanort, go watch the video on youtube for Codeds ending.
The fact that Mickey and Yen-Sid even question Riku & Sora's power should automatically tell you they are not on Aquas level.


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## Bender (Nov 18, 2010)

ensoriki said:


> Sora's not even up to snuff to defeat true Xehanort





For the last fucking time this is between Sora and Aqua NOT Xehanort. 




> , hell why do you think they're holding a mark of mastery test for Riku and Sora to see if they are up to snuff.



Because Xehanort's will come back with more power than ever meaning, even more than his NOBODY who wielded the powers of light and darkness.



> Yet Aqua defeated the person that Sora, Mickey and Riku have to beat...



What the hell are you talking about? She didn't beat Master Xehanort she beat Terranort who was hardly as strong as his heartless counterpart.



> If current Sora tried to fight Terranort 10 years ago instead of Aqua Terranort would of won and all would be over.




Have you seen the power of Heartless Xehanort? Seriously, it's the same bloody battle only difference is the reaction commands.


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## ensoriki (Nov 18, 2010)

Bender said:


> For the last fucking time this is between Sora and Aqua NOT Xehanort.


Beating him is still her feat, as is cracking the incomplete x-blade, taking that smash into the boulder from Vanitas, beating VLS and beating MF.
The argument against her is a lack of storyline cutscene feats in comparison to Sora when she beat a stronger opponent, alone (for the most part though Terras heart was there)




> Because Xehanort's will come back with more power than ever meaning, even more than his NOBODY who wielded the powers of light and darkness.


No he wont come back with more power than ever, he'll come back the same.
If it was simply Apprentice Xehanort, than Sora, Mickey or Riku could handle him and we wouldn't have a problem.


> What the hell are you talking about? She didn't beat Master Xehanort she beat Terranort who was hardly as strong as his heartless counterpart.


Terranort IS MASTER XEHANORT.
The distinction is that TERRANORT IS STRONGER.
Apprentice Xehanort is the weakest, Master Xehanort and then Terranort is the strongest having everything of Master Xehanort but Terra's body 




> Have you seen the power of Heartless Xehanort? Seriously, it's the same bloody battle only difference is the reaction commands.


Canon still has Terranort as stronger.


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## Bender (Nov 18, 2010)

ensoriki said:


> Beating him is still her feat, as is cracking the incomplete x-blade, taking that smash into the boulder from Vanitas, beating VLS and beating MF.



And Sora's feat is being hit by a freaking skyscraper. Tell me has Aqua been hit with a skyscraper? No she hasn't.



> The argument against her is a lack of storyline cutscene feats in comparison to Sora when she beat a stronger opponent, alone (for the most part though Terras heart was there)



Sora took on the strongest being existence: Twilight Xenmas

Your argument is moot.




> No he wont come back with more power than ever, he'll come back the same.



Huh, last I checked Aqua was one of the several who got her ass kicked by Master Xehanort. Thus your argument= 0 proof Aqua wins. Terra was the only one who actually stood a chance against him  but only by tapping into the power of darkness. Hell, if I recall correctly Terra even held an advantage over her in the brute strength department as well as stronger will. The only reason she beat Terranort was  because he didn't have complete control over his new powers.



> If it was simply Apprentice Xehanort, than Sora, Mickey or Riku could handle him and we wouldn't have a problem.



For the love of god listen that's who Sora fought in KH I, and BEAT.



> Terranort IS MASTER XEHANORT.



And Aqua beat him because he didn't have complete control over his powers thus the reason for him losing control and having to struggle with Terra during the fight. In a fight Terra is the stronger one and he showed this in the Master's exam. 



> The distinction is that TERRANORT IS STRONGER.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Itachi2001 (Nov 18, 2010)

Sora stomps


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## ensoriki (Nov 19, 2010)

Bender said:


> And Sora's feat is being hit by a freaking skyscraper. Tell me has Aqua been hit with a skyscraper? No she hasn't.


When is this last I checked, Sora cuts every bloody skyscraper unless your a scrub. Unless we're counting game mechanics yeah no Sora never tanks a skyscraper. If crap like that counted then yeah everyone survives being impaled . 
Sora was never hit by a skyscraper.
Riku was hit by the sabers, Sora was not.
Aqua was slashed, flung into a boulder by the sheer strength of wind created by a swipe of the X-blade, cracked the X-blade with the last of her strength, and survived the explosion (well everyone survived).
Unless I'm forgetting some scenes, she has actual durability feats that Sora does not.
The characters of BBS actually got smashed, Sora didn't what actual durability feats does Sora have...he didn't even get hit by anything. Hell Goofy protected him in KH1 against Riku's dark Firaga. Sora doesn't get hit. He's not supposed to, nobodies supposed to because typically if people got hit they would die. Hell Vanitas was going to kill Aqua, Xemnas light sabers can't even kill.



> Sora took on the strongest being existence: Twilight Xenmas


Twilight Xemnas is stronger than Master Xehanort 
Yeah the same Xehanort who can't fucking Cut anything. The same guy who hit Riku in the chest with his light saber and then in the hip. Yeah sure he's stronger than Master Xehanort.  







> Huh, last I checked Aqua was one of the several who got her ass kicked by Master Xehanort. Thus your argument= 0 proof Aqua wins.


Wtf are you talking about did you play Birth by sleep? Xehanort never stomped Aqua. Hell Vanitas blind sided her after she had chased after Braig.
Only person Xehanort stomped was Ventus. 





> Terra was *the only one* who actually stood a chance against him  but only by tapping into the power of darkness.


Ventus couldn't face him I'll give you that, Ventus is incomplete...Aqua couldn't face Xehanort? My Psp says otherwise.

Hell again straight from Trinity Archives for The Final Episode.
"The darkness emanating from this stranger could belong only to one man: Master Xehanort. Aqua challenged him, determined to win back Terra's heart. Xehanort lost the fight and began to writhe; Terra's heart was fighting back from the inside."
It states right there that she defeated him. We know from actually fighting the battle that she fought Xehanort 1 on 1 and won. Xehanort then accessed more darkness and his Shadow appeared and Terra's heart would aid in the battle creating openings to damage Xehanort.
She beat Xehanort and the second round she got assistance from Terra's resistance.




Umm what?


> Hell, if I recall correctly Terra even held an advantage over her in the brute strength department as well as stronger will.


Terra is fighter in brute strength as explained in the game and she is superior in magic. Yet Terra's brute strength does not equate to actual better skill with the keyblade. You can see during their mark of mastery test how that went. Terra's darkness came out when Aqua nearly split his head.



> The only reason she beat Terranort was  because he didn't have complete control over his new powers.


There were no new powers, taking Terra's body didn't mean shit got pulled out of his ass. It meant he could fight with the strength of his youth. Hell he says in his damn reports how he was starting to get old and die. It wasn't about being used to new powers, he wasn't doing things he hadn't done before, except for actually taking over Terras body.




> For the love of god listen that's who Sora fought in KH I, and BEAT.



Did you honestly just say Sora beat apprentice Xehanort in KH1?
Either that was an accident you did not mean to say or you do not know what your talking about. AX is a complete being, Ansem: SOD is a heartless and Xemnas is a nobody, they are not AX, they are parts of him, his heart and flesh respectively.





> And Aqua beat him because he didn't have complete control over his powers thus the reason for him losing control and having to struggle with Terra during the fight.


Terra resisted PERIODICALLY throughout the fight but was surpressed for the majority of the fights. Xehanort was controlling his powers where'd you get that nonsense from. After the Keyblade Graveyard Xehanort knew not who he was, upon Aqua calling out Terra's name, Xehanort snapped back into reality and started chocking her. Where did the loss of control come from, there wasn't one.







> In a fight Terra is the stronger one and he showed this in the Master's exam.


 No he didn't.
In the masters exam they fought, each dodging the others attack, and then Aqua came close to smashing his head in with her keyblade, and terra realized that, hence the wide opened eyes and look of shock as he steps backwards. Then his left hand glows with darkness he looks at it and it goes away. Yeah no. Don't spit some nonsense about "he showed this in the Master's exam" he didn't.

It's right their in the Trinity archives pull out your PsP if you think im bullshitting. On Terra's Timeline for LOD it says this
"But during the exam the next day, when he and Aqua fought and she gained the upper hand, part of the darkness within Terra emerged unbidden. The consequences: Aqua passed the exam and  was recognized as a true keyblade Master. Terra, however, was not." 




> So you're saying Xehanort's heartless is weak? He was a bloody giant.


Out of all battle seen showings of Xehanort Ansem: SOD is the weakest. Though a previous statement I made would be wrong.  Apprentice Xehanort was actually probably the weakest, not Ansem: SoD. Since from BBS we see the vulnerability of AX with no memories to protect him.




> Aqua didn't beat Master Xehanort. Terra did but only because of Xehanort's urging to tap into the powers of darkness completely.


Aqua did beat him ITS RIGHT THERE IN THE GOD DAMN GAME. They state it in the archives, try to argue with the game, when Aqua beats him in battle and then hell the recaps even state she beat him.

yes Terra tapped into darkness because Xehanort is stupid strong, Aqua beat him without relying on darkness and in round 2 of their 2 round battle Terra was resisting Xehanort which we see in-battle and gives us an opportunity to fight. The archives then support this by saying that she beat Xehanort and that Xehanort began to writhe; Terra's heart was fighting back from the inside. 

Yeah no, she beat Master Xehanort.



> Aqua won the fight against Terranort because Master Xehanort was fighting with Terra for control of his body. Get it?


That's false.
You literally see in-game that Terra does not become a factor in the battle until the second round with Terranort. Xehanort was able to completely keep fighting. It was after that he had lost that Terra's resistance grew even harder to control and that he had to do something about it immediately. 


The story recap straight out says she beat him and concludes afterwards not beforehand that Terra was fighting back.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35KUnRYgi3Q[/YOUTUBE]
Watch the video it straight out SHOWS when Terra starts actively resisting.
Aqua had already forced Xehanort back and then Terra comes into play hence the glow.
She beat Master Xehanort bro.
It may be strange, but Kingdom hearts actually has a girl outlast and beat the crap out of the main villian. Though everything that's happened since that battle is her fault for saving Terra.

Sora wouldn't beat her, we all know Xehanorts power. "Twilight Xemnas" can't even cut with his friggen blades and he has no memory of his past life as Master Xehanort. He did well to get that strong coming from nothing but that's where it ends.

Aqua plays with the big boys. Sora's fighting her leftovers. If Xehanort hadn't been in Terra's body she wouldn't of spared him and the future wouldn't of happened.
Aqua would beat Sora shes currently superior, unless her skills have dulled in the dark realm.


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## Disaresta (Nov 19, 2010)

Sora takes this with mid difficulty, I'm surprised you guys have forgoten drives and limit breaks alike. Aqua has flashy moves for sure but she has neither feats nor strength enough to take on sora. Whith or without help taking on the strongest being to ever exist up untill that point is huge. And you cant argue against it. The guy was capibole of creation...holy shit. He was throwing skyscrapers and blating laser all over the place. Mind you Riku was probaly the biggest reason for FF xemnas' defeat, sora was no slack in this fight. Besides again sora has final and limit form...nuff said. And yes he would be able to use them as they are cannon, and needing to merge with an ally is gameplay macanic not canon. He can do them just fine on his own, as shown when he first got valor form


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## noobthemusical (Nov 19, 2010)

ensoriki said:


> Yet Aqua defeated the person that Sora, Mickey and Riku have to beat...because she and Terra are not there to stop him this time.
> Well...Terras heart should still be there to help them.
> This whole person Yen-Sid and Mickey are worried about, was someone Mickey couldn't compare to 10 years ago, and had never fought to even know if he was strong enough to compare to.



Wait are you actually doubting that Xehanort of KH3 is gonna be the more power than any incarnation, and more powerful than any of the other characters?

Also the reason for the test is the assumption that MX has back up.

Who could be more powerful than him I mean what of KH4


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## ensoriki (Nov 19, 2010)

noobthemusical said:


> Wait are you actually doubting that Xehanort of KH3 is gonna be the more power than any incarnation, and more powerful than any of the other characters?


Don't spit out some nonsense.
A:SOD and Xemnas are composed of Apprentice Xehanort who has no memory of being Terra OR Xehanort. Xemnas bloody calls Aqua's armor "Friend" and nobodies remember the lives of where they came from. Apprentice Xehanort never remembered his time as MX or Terra.
He wont be as strong until he recovers his memories and since KH3 IS the end of his saga, he will regain his memories in KH3 and become his strongest once again and then if the tend continues, even stronger than before.
Ansem: Sod got stronger at the end, Xemnas got stronger at the end, Master Xehanort got stronger at the end. 

Unless Riku has Terra & Eraqus heart with him, the revived Xehanort will still be struggling with Terra & Xehanorts heart and not regain his memories at his wisest and strongest.



> Also the reason for the test is the assumption that MX has back up.


Mickey thinks that the 3 of them, TOGETHER could take down MX which is probably true since team work actually works in KH. If MX has back up it'll stop them from working as a team and people will be singled out just as it happened 10 years ago for TVA. Except for Aqua everyone went into battles alone and nobody but Aqua had a even remotely favourable outcome as a result. Unless you want to call losing your body and your heart being at the threat of consumption by Xehanorts, the destruction of your own heart by destroying the X-blade favourable results.
Lets look at the facts, if they had teamed on MX like Mickeys assuming there wouldn't be a problem. When they teamed on Xemnas, Sora and Riku were able to win.
If they can work as a team they can take stronger opponents which does not work if MX has back up and they get split up.
Everyone would need to hence be a force on their own.
If anyone gets singled out against the true Xehanort they need to hold their own and everyones got to be able to take on any back up that may come individually as well if they get split up.
Even then, considering Xehanorts fixation on Kindom hearts if he gets the X-blade again, they're all going to need to be stronger. So Mickeys assumption of he, Riku and Sora taking Xehanort was flawed to begin with. It's all dependant on how things play out, whether Xehanort has his memories, whether they all attack him at once, whether he gets the X-blade before they reach him. If he has help. If Vanitas is not truly dead it would cause further problems and MF is likely helping as well. Unless Nomura has MF as a character for the next saga which I doubt.






> Who could be more powerful than him I mean what of KH4


Xehanort in complete Ventus's body would be more powerful than Terranort, though that's never going to happen and since Xehanort ends in KH3  I dunno.
For all we know Kingdom hearts could have a opposite counterpart that is formed in the dark realm. Considering everything is screwed up in that realm who knows.



> Sora takes this with mid difficulty, I'm surprised you guys have forgoten drives and limit breaks alike.


Ghost Drive Aqua wouldn't even be touched by Sora.
There is nothing dismissing Command Styles, concerning that  Dark impulse is the result of Terra succumbing to darkness for instance as is exclusive in the Eraqus fight and ventus also gets D-linked with Vanitas and can use those powers.
Ghost Drive Aqua would blitz Sora if your including those.




> Aqua has flashy moves for sure but she has neither feats nor strength enough to take on sora.


We know she can collapse stone with a hit for sure, as seen well in Malificents world as she and Phillip are escaping and thats early in the game. Theres probably something else but I cant recall.



> Whith or without help taking on the strongest being to ever exist up untill that point is huge.


Strongest being stated by who?
Again aside from KH2 being created first, there is literally nobody to vouch for the true power of Xehanort except for Terra and Aqua who are the only people who actually fought him, and both are inaccessible as of present, well Terra to a lesser degree since Sora's already met him. Twilight Xemnas can not straight out remove your heart, he cannot take over your body, he cannot rend the very earth, he cannot wreck a world, he cannot cut Riku. He has the possibility to wield the keyblade as Nomura stated but doesn't. Twilight Xemnas the strongest to exist that THEY knew about when Mickey never even faced Master Xehanort or Terranort. Hell Mickey doesn't know Terra's body was taken over. Which I can't blame him since Mickey and Terra didn't interact.


> And you cant argue against it. The guy was capable of creation...holy shit.


>.> your not serious. Xemnas was about as creative as a pencil.



> He was throwing skyscrapers and blating laser all over the place.


Which don't even matter because any of the keyblade wielders except for Kairi and maybe Eraqus since he's old would make their way to Xemnas the same bloody way. His Skyscrapers were fodder, and except for his final laser show, nothing.




> Mind you Riku was probaly the biggest reason for FF xemnas' defeat, sora was no slack in this fight.


The fight had some complete wierd crap going in on it, as interesting and exciting as it was. Riku being battered not cut from the slashes he recieved from Xemnas is one of the wierdist things. Sora not cutting Xehanort was wierd as hell too, but considering the angles he used the two blades at and how Xemnas blocked some of the hits it's not completely unreasonable.



> Besides again sora has final and limit form...nuff said.


TVA's command styles would smash Final Form into the ground, nuff said. Well actually for whatever reason other than Dark Impulse I haven't used terra's advanced styles so I can't really speak for him.


> And yes he would be able to use them as they are canon, and needing to merge with an ally is gameplay macanic not canon


As are command styles. Ghost Drive Aqua kills Sora though either way.
Theres also Aqua's superiority in magic to Sora.



> . He can do them just fine on his own, as shown when he first got valor form


Ghost Drive Aqua is arguably faster than Sora can keep up.
She leaves after Images


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## Bender (Nov 19, 2010)

ensoriki said:


> When is this last I checked, Sora cuts every bloody skyscraper unless your a scrub.



Even if he missed one and took the hit the fact is he took the hit.

Also in Kingdom Hearts II in Beast's world if you mess up the reaction commands Sora is sent flying into a pillar by the heartless Xaldin made. 

The overall issue is that Aqua is bad at dodging and unable to be as agile as Sora is and make a rebound.



> Unless we're counting game mechanics yeah no Sora never tanks a skyscraper. If crap like that counted then yeah everyone survives being impaled .







> Aqua was slashed, flung into a boulder by the sheer strength of wind created by a swipe of the X-blade



Whuppedy freakin doo. Sora was blown was away by the sheer force of Xenmas blade when he was in knight form. 

Wow, and Sora so can't take that. He was friggin handling a wave motion gun from the shit Xenmas was commanding in the The world that never was.



> , cracked the X-blade with the last of her strength, and survived the explosion (well everyone survived).



Ven and Mickey helped Aqua take apart the X-blade from the inside during his battle with Vanitas. Reasoning fail ftw.  




> Unless I'm forgetting some scenes, she has actual durability feats that Sora does not.



You're still not listening... It doesn't matter by game mechanics if Aqua beat Terranort(Terra MX struggling for control) Xemnas was the most powerful being in KH universe. 



> The characters of BBS actually got smashed, Sora didn't what actual durability feats does Sora have...






> he didn't even get hit by anything. Hell Goofy protected him in KH1 against Riku's dark Firaga. Sora doesn't get hit.



So what if he didn't get hit. Sora didn't have his weapon on him or did you forget that? Also who cares if he needed Goofy's help. Sora managed to return to his original form after stabbing himself in the heart with the dark keyblade Xehanort-Riku fought him with. Not only did Sora do something which no one else ha but he was able to keep growing stronger in spite of the fact that he was separated from his nobody.


Yes, he does. I just mentioned it in the above response he got sent miles away by a heartless Luxford created and survived when Luxford capsized his ship.




> He's not supposed to, nobodies supposed to because typically if people got hit they would die. Hell Vanitas was going to kill Aqua, Xemnas light sabers can't even kill.



Yes they can...  If you're low on health they end you. Riku would have died if Sora didn't intervene in the cutscene of the Xenmas final form battle. Seriously, what the hell kind of logic is that? Because Xenmas hasn't been shown cutting down anyone with his Ethereal blades it means he's weak and Master Xehanort is better. Sora's keyblade isn't sharp either so does that mean he can't cut shit?





> Twilight Xemnas is stronger than Master Xehanort



That's what I've been saying. What part about strongest being in the universe do you not understand? Sora defeated him when he was enraged how badly he beat up Riku and pwned him with his keyblade and Riku's then shot him through the chest. That and Riku assisting helping him when Xenmas was about to take his heart, along with the thousand lasers. Hell, Sora even took on a thousand heartless without Goofy and Donald's help. When Aqua was trapped in the world of darkness she gave up until Terra's and Ven's keyblade came to her rescue.





> Yeah the same Xehanort who can't fucking Cut anything.



It's because Sora and Riku are strongly-built. 




> The same guy who hit Riku in the chest with his light saber and then in the hip.





> Yeah sure he's stronger than Master Xehanort.



Xemnas *IS* stronger than Master Xehanort



> Wtf are you talking about did you play Birth by sleep? Xehanort never stomped Aqua.



Then explain to me why she's not chasing after Xehanort with Terra? Exactly. Because, she was too weak to do anything



> Hell Vanitas blind sided her after she had chased after Braig.



So what she was still beat down by him.





> Ventus couldn't face him I'll give you that, Ventus is incomplete...Aqua couldn't face Xehanort? My Psp says otherwise.



Once again, Xehanort was still fighting with Terra in his body. Even if he did unlock his heart again he still couldn't utilize Terra's body's full potential. For example when Xehanort stole Riku's body he was with him mind body and soul. 




> "The darkness emanating from this stranger could belong only to one man: Master Xehanort. Aqua challenged him, determined to win back Terra's heart. Xehanort lost the fight and began to writhe; Terra's heart was fighting back from the inside."



This is from a fannon not the creator.



> It states right there that she defeated him. We know from actually fighting the battle that she fought Xehanort 1 on 1 and won.



Yes, but because Terra was interfering in the fight.



> Xehanort then accessed more darkness and his Shadow appeared and Terra's heart would aid in the battle creating openings to damage Xehanort.



So what? Sora faced the same shadow. You're still not being very clear about the point you're trying to make.




> She beat Xehanort and the second round she got assistance from Terra's resistance.



Thank you, you admitted it.






> Terra is fighter in brute strength as explained in the game and she is superior in magic. Yet Terra's brute strength does not equate to actual better skill with the keyblade. You can see during their mark of mastery test how that went. Terra's darkness came out when Aqua nearly split his head.





Now you're being a tard. No she didn't. Hell, that shouldn't even count due to the fact Xehanort meddled with the exam and influenced Terra to utilize darkness.





> Did you honestly just say Sora beat apprentice Xehanort in KH1?
> Either that was an accident you did not mean to say or you do not know what your talking about. AX is a complete being



So what if he isn't. Sora still beat him. In Sora's fight with Xehanort's nobody at Hollow Bastion in Kingdom Hearts Sora managed to hold his own even though he was incomplete.

Sora even beat Linger Sentiment (Terra) who beat Xehanort possessing his body. 

So therefore Sora wins

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWZGuOe5nfU[/YOUTUBE]


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## Bender (Nov 19, 2010)

> He wont be as strong until he recovers his memories and since KH3 IS the end of his saga



Look get it through your head he is NOT stronger than Sora. Unless he gets some unbelievable power boost (which he will) that makes him surpass his nobody incarnation in power then he's dead. The only reason Sora is being given a masters exam is so he can obtain Keyblade armor




> TVA's command styles would smash Final Form into the ground, nuff said. Well actually for whatever reason other than Dark Impulse I haven't used terra's advanced styles so I can't really speak for him.





Sora can defeat them 1 2 with his reaction commands.



> As are command styles. Ghost Drive Aqua kills Sora though either way.
> Theres also Aqua's superiority in magic to Sora.



Riiiiight...So Sora uses valor form and has unlimited magic at his disposal until his drive gauge runs out and she can beat him? Sora uses stop magic and pounds away at her.


Ghost Drive Aqua is arguably faster than Sora can keep up.
She leaves after Images[/QUOTE]


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## noobthemusical (Nov 19, 2010)

Bender I'm not changing my Aqua wins stance but.

If you wanted to impress with a vid of the LS fight you should have gone with.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZaJ4eCoHLk&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Nov 19, 2010)

It's too bad that *Donald and Goofy aren't here to let him use Drive Forms.*


Just sayin'.


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## ensoriki (Nov 19, 2010)

Im not quoting all that, it would be absurd.

Inaction in gameplay does not prove canon sorry.
Not pressing a reaction command because you chose not/aren't able to in time does not make it a canon situation.

Looking back I can't actually find anything on Twilight Xemnas strength in the ultimania interviews or gamescript. So where does it state his strength?



> Now you're being a tard. No she didn't. Hell, that shouldn't even count due to the fact Xehanort meddled with the exam and influenced Terra to utilize darkness.


There is no tardism it's in the scene.
When Aqua slashed at Terra, he dodged it but it was right after that moment that his darkness arrived.
Again read the trinity archives you can say they are "Fannon" despite that those are documents in the game. How your going to call what's stated in the game a fannon I don't know. Protip Turn on your psp with birth by sleep in it. Hit the main menue.
It says.
New game
Continue
Trinity Archives (if you have beat one of the characters story)
Install Game.

Go to Trinity, Click Timeline. Go to Aqua's timeline and Terra's timeline and read they're storys for Land of Departure.
Go to Aqua's timeline and go to Final Episode. Read the story.
Everything I quoted is directly out of Trinity archives, it's not fannon, so don't give me that.

All of the archives are there. Again, nothing was fannon.


You shouldn't make statements that don't exist. Watch the battle does Terra look defeated. He and Sora are both looking at each other.



> Aqua... Ven...
> Keyblade...
> Who are you?
> I can feel it...we have met before
> ...


Check the Youtube video you posted. Terra does not stand defeated nor does Sora.



> Thank you, you admitted it.


Doesn't change anything since I said it before.
Aqua Beat Xehanort straight out in the 1st round and when he summoned his shadow, Terra would resist during periods of the fight allowing her to take advantage. After the battle Terra full on resists. What is there up for interpretation.
She beat him, he powered up she beat him again with aid of Terra's heart. Terra then full on resisted. Look at Aqua, shes not tired, shes not exhausted. She's fine. We openly saw exhaustion when she fought Vanitas in neverland and passed out after the battle.
You make it seem as if she wasn't getting stronger when Terra was.
Nomura even states in his interview she was to be the back-up for Ventus to forge the X-blade. Shes hardly off Terra's level.



> So what? Sora faced the same shadow. You're still not being very clear about the point you're trying to make.


 But is not the "same" shadow. The shadow is composed of darkness but Ansem: SoD being a heartless is part of but not the same entity. The Heart and Nobody are weaker than the original, however Xemnas/ Ansem: SoD had 9 years to get stronger. However MX is well past his 40's/50's with far more years of experience, the greatest magical power in canon  and adept with darkness. Yet your saying the 9 years of experience Ansem: SoD and/or Xeman is stronger than terranort/MX >.>

If Nomura made a statement at BBS release that Xemnas was still the strongest than sure lets see it, like I said I couldn't find the interview.



> So what if he isn't. Sora still beat him. In Sora's fight with Xehanort's nobody at Hollow Bastion in Kingdom Hearts Sora managed to hold his own even though he was incomplete.


And so? Xemnas was testing him. The levels of effort are simply not the same and you'd/we probably would have difficulty scaling Xemnas with that in mind.



> Sora can defeat them 1 2 with his reaction commands.


 What Reaction commands , Reaction commands are based off the situation. What reaction commands are going to apply/can he use in this situation Bender. Im not saying that he can only perform certain actions if the game prompts him what im saying is because Reaction commands are tailored to the opponent, which are actually applicable in this situation? Grabbing a heartless and riding it wouldn't be applicable here for instance.
How Sora's going to defeat her 1 2 when she uses reflect. If he hits the reflect she can shatter the barrier right back into him.

Valor form and his magic don't even equate. Aqua's a better magician and sora's a better physical combatant. She'd simply reflect physical attacks he performed and if he tried going the magic route he'd lose that battle indefinitely.
She can canonically perform a ranged reflect.



> Once again, Xehanort was still fighting with Terra in his body. Even if he did unlock his heart again he still couldn't utilize Terra's body's full potential. For example when Xehanort stole Riku's body he was with him mind body and soul.


Does not compute.
Terra's body and Mind don't factor against Xehanort, Xehanort is in control of the body and Terra's mind is in the Lingering Sentiment. The only thing resisting Xehanort is Terra's heart which was not resisting until * later i*in the fight. Again Aqua is fine after the fight, Xehanort is not, he got smacked back by Aqua before Terra full on resisted.



> It's because Sora and Riku are strongly-built.


That's not an argument. They are human keyblade wielders like every other wielder, the strongly built argument does not apply sorry.

Hows this fight going to play out.
Aqua's a superior Magician, Sora's physical stronger, outside of Ghost Drive he would be faster as well. Aqua has reflect, and a ranged version at that. You've implementated game mechanics with such as "unlimited magic" and other said nonsense yet keyblade wielders do not have infinite stamina and that's shown time and time again. Aqua's exhaustion vs vanitas, Sora collapsing against Leon, Riku's fatigue after the Xemnas fight, Sora dropping to nobodies in twilight town. Yeah no.

Though Sora shut him up Xigbar even thought Sora was a dud compared to Aqua Terra and Ven. Check the game script



> Xigbar: You've really put Organization XIII in a pickle. I guess that must be
> why the Keyblade chose you. But MAN, did it pick a dud this time. You don't
> look like you're half the hero the others were.
> 
> ...


Xigbars initial impression doesnt even have Sora matching the previous ones...and when he met Ventus, Ventus was frozen on the bloody ground raging at him to shutup.
Naturally Sora proved his worth but my point being Xigbar's perception of Sora does not have him add up to TVA.

to tl;dr this into points I'd prefer much better directly responded to than this on going text wall.
The statement of Twilight Xemnas strength since I can't find it.
Just how Sora's going to beat Aqua, what he can possibly due to her.
Trinity archives is not fanon, and it's a part of the game that's even required to unlock Blank Points in standard. A part of the game being "fanon" is ridiculous when it exists because the director (Nomura) had it put in.


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## Enclave (Nov 19, 2010)

Sora pretty much stomps.  He's taken on far more powerful opponents than TVA.

Also, Terranort isn't stronger than Xemnas, especially Twilight Xemnas.

You have to remember, Terranort was highly restricted in his strength thanks to Terra resisting him.



> Naturally Sora proved his worth but my point being Xigbar's perception of Sora does not have him add up to TVA.



You'll note, Xigbar is stronger than Braig and Sora took out Xigbar while TVA had trouble with Braig.

Seriously, this is a stomp for Sora.  Aqua isn't going to win this match.  She may be a better Keyblade master than Sora, but Sora is significantly stronger.  If anything, Aqua would be comparable to end of KH1 Sora.



Colonel Awesome said:


> It's too bad that *Donald and Goofy aren't here to let him use Drive Forms.*
> 
> 
> Just sayin'.



From a storyline perspective he doesn't need them to use his Drive forms.  He only needs them in the gameplay mechanics as to have a down side to the Drive forms.  That said though, Sora doesn't even need to use his drive forms to take out Aqua.


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## noobthemusical (Nov 19, 2010)

Colonel Awesome said:


> It's too bad that *Donald and Goofy aren't here to let him use Drive Forms.*
> 
> 
> Just sayin'.



I could post the 1 minute long limit form battle.

If I can find it.


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## Enclave (Nov 19, 2010)

noobthemusical said:


> I could post the 1 minute long limit form battle.
> 
> If I can find it.



You can also show the video from when Sora first uses Drive and goes into Valor Form and Goofy is still standing around, not having disappeared.


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## ensoriki (Nov 19, 2010)

Enclave said:


> You have to remember, Terranort was highly restricted in his strength thanks to Terra resisting him.


>.> I feel like people are forgetting the game, the trinity archives even explain what happened.



> You'll note, Xigbar is stronger than Braig and Sora took out Xigbar while TVA had trouble with Braig.


They had no trouble with Braig at all.
Xehanort set up a situation for Terra to use his darkness, Terra is the one who made Braig lose his eye and gain his facial scar. There was no difficulty he was just handicaped from beating Braig from the get-go.

Braig bloody RAN from Aqua. She didn't have difficulty with him.
Vanitas is the only opponent she had difficulty with and she's seemingly stronger at the time she faces Terranort.


Seriously, this is a stomp for Sora.  Aqua isn't going to win this match.  She may be a better Keyblade master than Sora, but Sora is significantly stronger.  If anything, Aqua would be comparable to end of KH1 Sora.[/QUOTE]

Bender:


> Yes they can...  If you're low on health they end you.


Why are you applying gameplay mechanics here?
Riku got smashed twice by Xemnas and lived. This is the strongest character in existance >.>. When Riku can still fight (to a dramatically reduced degree) after being hit twice directly. Xemnas and his light sabers are hardly lethal. Considering this happened in a cutscene, Xemnas strength really isn't that impressive. 
Unless your seriously arguing that Riku's actually tough enough to not be cut by an actual sword. Xemnas is weak and/or his weapon is. You shouldn't be taking a slash to the face and one to the hips. Since it's not a conventional sword, either the Light sabers are more of a battering weapon or Xemnas is just weak.


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## Enclave (Nov 19, 2010)

ensoriki said:


> >.> I feel like people are forgetting the game, the trinity archives even explain what happened.



I'll look into it again when I get home.  However I assure you, Sora is significantly stronger than TVA.  Just look at feats and such, Sora outclasses them all by a fairly wide margin and he's fought much stronger opponents.  Hell, look at the villains they fought who Sora has also fought, Sora fought stronger versions of all of them.



> They had no trouble with Braig at all.
> Xehanort set up a situation for Terra to use his darkness, Terra is the one who made Braig lose his eye and gain his facial scar. There was no difficulty he was just handicaped from beating Braig from the get-go.
> 
> Braig bloody RAN from Aqua. She didn't have difficulty with him.
> Vanitas is the only opponent she had difficulty with and she's seemingly stronger at the time she faces Terranort.



Yes, they still defeated him.  But he was able to put up a fight, he wasn't totally useless against them.  He likely however would be pretty near useless against Sora.  Also, she was stronger when she faced Terranort thanks to the power of friendship and all that crap.




> Why are you applying gameplay mechanics here?
> Riku got smashed twice by Xemnas and lived. This is the strongest character in existance >.>. When Riku can still fight (to a dramatically reduced degree) after being hit twice directly. Xemnas and his light sabers are hardly lethal. Considering this happened in a cutscene, Xemnas strength really isn't that impressive.
> Unless your seriously arguing that Riku's actually tough enough to not be cut by an actual sword. Xemnas is weak and/or his weapon is. You shouldn't be taking a slash to the face and one to the hips. Since it's not a conventional sword, either the Light sabers are more of a battering weapon or Xemnas is just weak.



Twilight Xemnas was stated by Nomura as the strongest being in the series thus far and you think that his light sabers are not lethal?  Look at what Sora and Riku were doing to skyscrapers, it stands to reason that somebody who's a fair bit stronger than them would be capable of at LEAST similar feats.  You just underestimate Sora and Rikus own durabilities.  As much as you may not want to believe it, Sora and Riku are actually significantly harder to cut than skyscrapers.

Actually, you should go to the birth by sleep gamefaqs board.  There's some people there who have insane Kingdom Hearts knowledge, they'll tell you as well that Sora wins this.


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## noobthemusical (Nov 19, 2010)

To my fellow fans

Spoiler heavy interview just thought I'd leave it here cause why not



No bearing on this fight.


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## Bender (Nov 19, 2010)

ensoriki said:


> Im not quoting all that, it would be absurd.



Funny, that's the same way I feel.




> Inaction in gameplay does not prove canon sorry.



Umm yes it does. The Sora vs Lingering sentiment battle happened whether you don't want to admit it or not.



> Not pressing a reaction command because you chose not/aren't able to in time does not make it a canon situation.



Did or did not it proves that he's a shitload more agile than Aqua is. 



> Looking back I can't actually find anything on Twilight Xemnas strength in the ultimania interviews or gamescript.



How many times do I have to explain it to you? ULTIMANIA KHINSIDER ARE FANON. Meaning, that it's from fan perspectives NOT the creator. 



> So where does it state his strength?



Look it up, you're the one who seems to have all the information. So look it up.



> There is no tardism it's in the scene.





> When Aqua slashed at Terra, he dodged it but it was right after that moment that his darkness arrived.





[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGJ1BJZHVFs[/YOUTUBE]


Pay attention, Xehanort sabotaged the whole exam.



You shouldn't make statements that don't exist. Watch the battle does Terra look defeated. He and Sora are both looking at each other.




> Terra does not stand defeated nor does Sora.



Simply because Terra is still standing means nothing. He knelt down and resigned.




> Aqua Beat Xehanort straight out in the 1st round and when he summoned his shadow, Terra would resist during periods of the fight allowing her to take advantage. After the battle Terra full on resists. What is there up for interpretation.




And yet the battle boss name is Terra-Xehanort. Terra-Xehanort is fighting with the same mentality as when Terra's armor reformed. 




> She beat him, he powered up she beat him again with aid of Terra's heart. Terra then full on resisted. Look at Aqua, shes not tired, shes not exhausted. She's fine.



Yeah, and if Aqua's so durable I suppose that's why she gave up when she was trapped in the realm of darkness.  Nowhere in the game has she been shown to fight 1000 enemies or so.




> Nomura even states in his interview she was to be the back-up for Ventus to forge the X-blade. Shes hardly off Terra's level.



Nomura doesn't need  to say it it's pretty obvious with Vanitas stating she'd be the "back-up plan".





If Nomura made a statement at BBS release that Xemnas was still the strongest than sure lets see it, like I said I couldn't find the interview.



> And so? Xemnas was testing him. The levels of effort are simply not the same and you'd/we probably would have difficulty scaling Xemnas with that in mind.





> How Sora's going to defeat her 1 2 when she uses reflect. If he hits the reflect she can shatter the barrier right back into him.



Aqua can't shatter the barrier, she doesn't even have the excessive strength to do it. If anyone Master Xehanort was the only one who was able to do so.



> Valor form and his magic don't even equate. Aqua's a better magician and sora's a better physical combatant.



My god you're being a tard






> She'd simply reflect physical attacks he performed and if he tried going the magic route he'd lose that battle indefinitely.





> She can canonically perform a ranged reflect.



And so can Sora... 


Does not compute.



> Terra's body and Mind don't factor against Xehanort, Xehanort is in control of the body and Terra's mind is in the Lingering Sentiment.



Umm yeah they do. 



> Again Aqua is fine after the fight, Xehanort is not, he got smacked back by Aqua before Terra full on resisted.



So what if she is. Xehanort was not of sound mind considering he had resistance from Terra who could've spent him some. Hell, the fact that they continued battling each other  and up to the point when MX and Terra's heart split from his heartless and nobody Xemnas says something. 



> That's not an argument. They are human keyblade wielders like every other wielder, the strongly built argument does not apply sorry.



Actually it does if you take into account Ven is apart of Sora's heart. And Ven's feat was using his will-power to thaw out of the icy form that Master Xehanort had made him into.



> Aqua's exhaustion vs vanitas, Sora collapsing against Leon, Riku's fatigue after the Xemnas fight, Sora dropping to nobodies in twilight town. Yeah no.



Sora collapsing against Leon? He was still a novice. In comparison to the heartless darkside Leon was no rookie. Riku was exhausted for the same reason Sora was they had to reflect a billion lasers for 1-2 minutes. Also Sora becoming exhausted from his fight against the nobodies was plausible considering he's been asleep for a WHOLE year. When he impaled himself using the dark keyblade he separated from Roxas who took knowledge of his magic away leaving him dumbfounded.




> Though Sora shut him up Xigbar even thought Sora was a dud compared to Aqua Terra and Ven. Check the game script



What the hell does Xigbar know? He was an idiot. He dropped  his guard and got ass handed to him by the "poppet" Xion who he continuously mocked.

Here's the proof of Xemnas being the most powerful being in the KH universe during KH2


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## ensoriki (Nov 19, 2010)

> Umm yes it does. The Sora vs Lingering sentiment battle happened whether you don't want to admit it or not.


Who said it did not happen? That's not an example of inaction proving canon.



> Did or did not it proves that he's a shitload more agile than Aqua is.


Of course it does.



> *How many times do I have to explain it to you*? ULTIMANIA KHINSIDER ARE FANON. Meaning, that it's from fan perspectives NOT the creator.


You never said thatt. Go read your posts.
You stated that the Trinity Archives quote is fanon despite that quote coming straight out of the bloody game.

It's in the bloody game it's not Fanon.





> Umm yeah they do.


The only thing of Terra disrupting Xehanorts control is Terra's heart.
Terra's mind is not in his body it is in the lingering Sentiment.
The Vessel does not resist having a heart inside it.





> So what if she is. Xehanort was not of sound mind considering he had resistance from Terra who could've spent him some. Hell, the fact that they continued battling each other and up to the point when MX and Terra's heart split from his heartless and nobody Xemnas says something.


rephrase that please.



> Actually it does if you take into account Ven is apart of Sora's heart. And Ven's feat was using his will-power to thaw out of the icy form that Master Xehanort had made him into.


 You know that doesn't make sense right.
Your saying that because Sora has Ven's heart he can do what Ven can which is false to begin with otherwise he would've been wielding the keyblade at the age of 4. From what I understand your stating that Ven thawing out in rage and an urge to save Aqua = they are physically strongly built to not be cut.
That's ridiculous.



> Sora collapsing against Leon? He was still a novice. In comparison to the heartless darkside Leon was no rookie. Riku was exhausted for the same reason Sora was they had to reflect a billion lasers for 1-2 minutes. Also Sora becoming exhausted from his fight against the nobodies was plausible considering he's been asleep for a WHOLE year. When he impaled himself using the dark keyblade he separated from *Roxas who took knowledge of his magic *away leaving him dumbfounded.


What the hell are you talking about Bender?
The point was that Sora's stamina is not infinite and that he fatigues and you come up with excuses for the guy getting tired. No excuses are necessary, Sora get's fatigued and cannot fight forever, point made. Roxas took away Sora's knowledge of magic...where are you pulling this from. Roxas was formed when Sora stabbed himself..he turns into a heartless, Kairi purifies his darkness and he's then a heart given form since Roxas has his body. Roxas had Sora's body not his knowledge of magic >.>.
Sora was never stated or shown to of lost any ability in magic whatsoever. Except for losing his physical body and Ven's heart Sora was fine.



> What the hell does Xigbar know? He was an idiot. He dropped his guard and got ass handed to him by the "poppet" Xion who he continuously mocked.


Xion set him off balance when she appeared as Ventus to him.




> Here's the proof of Xemnas being the most powerful being in the KH universe during KH2


What are you showing me. It says that he's the strongest in the organization not in existence. Ctrl+f'd vs Xemnas it saying he was the strongest in the organization was it.


_–Who are the strongest ranking Organization XIII?

Nomura: Xemnas is the strongest, and Roxas is considerably strong you include his potential. Xaldin and Lexaeus are higher after that. However, when their strength is configured by preference, it’s different than how it appears in the story. 
_
That is the statement you speak of right?
That is not evidence of Xemnas being the strongest in existence. Did I miss a statement or were the previous statements of xemnas being strongest in existance/universe mistakes?



> My god you're being a tard


If you don't understand what im saying ask for clarification.
Im not saying Sora can't use drive forms.



> Yeah, and if Aqua's so durable I suppose that's why she gave up when she was trapped in the realm of darkness.  Nowhere in the game has she been shown to fight 1000 enemies or so.


Stop supposing.
She was giving up on HERSELF she wasn't physically tired.
.
"Elsewhere, Aqua was trudging through endless darkness. Sinister monsters surrounded her, and she could no longer fight the urge to bring her struggle to a close. But as she lowered her Keyblade in resignation, light came pouring into the darkness. It shifted and changed, becoming two Keyblades: Terra's, and Ven's. In a flash, they had destroyed the monsters around her. Aqua realized her friends had found a way to reach her - and in the deepest darkness, she had found light.
"
Again quote taken straight from the game.

Does this sound to anyone that she could not fight? She gave up on herself, when Terra and Ven's keyblades stopped the Heartless she snapped back to normal.



> Aqua can't shatter the barrier, she doesn't even have the excessive strength to do it. If anyone Master Xehanort was the only one who was able to do so.


Did you just tell me she can't shatter her barrier.
It's her counter command.
If her block is hit she can shatter the barrier and the shards hit the enemy >.>
Im really starting to think you did not play Birth by sleep.


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## Bender (Nov 19, 2010)

> That is not evidence of Xemnas being the strongest in existence. Did I miss a statement or were the previous statements of xemnas being strongest in existance/universe mistakes?



Actually, it is the Organization was one of the most powerful force in the KH universe during KHII and pretty much ever.



> Who said it did not happen? That's not an example of inaction proving canon.



Nomura said the lingering sentiment in KHII Final Mix was unimportant when in actuality it was. He lied about it and turns out it was.





> Elsewhere, Aqua was trudging through endless darkness. Sinister monsters surrounded her, and she could no longer fight the urge to bring her struggle to a close.



Okay, now you're the one implying she has nigh-unlimited stamina. She doesn't. Regardless of whether she could fight she was resigning to her fate. Something Sora continued to fight even when Donald and Goofy left his side.


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## Bender (Nov 19, 2010)

> That is the statement you speak of right?



Yes it is, because Sora had Roxas (who had merged with him) help along with Riku to take him down. Because of the strength of his nobody he was able to end reign forever.




> That is not evidence of Xemnas being the strongest in existence. Did I miss a statement or were the previous statements of xemnas being strongest in existance/universe mistakes?



No it's the right statement.

You're just being blinded by your love for Aqua.

Xemnas never used his full strength, he had everything else attack for him. First he had his new dimension strike them which they overcame. Then he had Sora and Riku do battle with his dragon which they over came. Next he used the powers of the other 11 members of the org (which minus roxas incase your wondering) to fight you with. Occasionally he would use his own strength to knock them away.

Finally when all was done and done Xemnas stopped playing nice. He realised that Sora and Riku had just toasted everything and were still going strong, he knew he was screwed but flat out told riku and sora he's not going to give up just yet. Finally Xemnas fights using his full power and almost beats both of them. But in the end the combined power of Sora and Riku is stronger than Xemnas.

All and all Xemnas without KH is the strongest single KH being in the universe (not by that much) and all the extra KH power he was given (the dimension, dragon, and the other nobody powers) were defeated. In the end it came down to Xemnas's own strength and even that was not enough.

Xemnas is stronger than any one person, but he's not stronger than two people.


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## ensoriki (Nov 19, 2010)

"love of Aqua" Sorry Bender but making an assumption of a love for a character because isn't an argument nor is it correct.
Again the quote does not state Xemnas is the strongest character in existence but that he's strongest in the organization. Saying he's the strongest character in existance because of that statement would be an assumption a poor one considering Xemnas himself was beat by Sora alone. Next you'll tell me Yen-Sid is weak because he's not a master anymore.
Being stated to be one thing does not equate to also being something else.
Being stated to be strongest in the organization does not equate being the strongest in existence.
No longer being a master does not equate to being weak. To prevent misunderstanding im not saying that you said Yen-sid is weak it's just a comparison.


Your statement on lingering sentiment is still not evidence of inaction proving canon.
Something we did not has not proven canon.

Now your making statements that xemnas was sandbagging without any evidence to support that.



> All and all Xemnas without KH* is the strongest single KH being in the universe* (not by that much) and all the extra KH power he was given (the dimension, dragon, and the other nobody powers) were defeated. In the end it came down to Xemnas's own strength and even that was not enough.


Bender.
You have not proved that statement in any way shape or form.

All you did was get a quotation saying he's the strongest in the organization and take it upon yourself to say that means he's the strongest in the universe.


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## Enclave (Nov 20, 2010)

If you cannot tell, I'm not spending much time reading this since, well, it should be fairly obvious who wins this as I'd already stated.

However, I did see somebody say that Aqua can do a ranged Reflect.  That's incorrect.  She can use a spell called Barrier.  It's NOT Reflect.  It's a completely different spell altogether.


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## Bender (Nov 20, 2010)

Enclave said:


> If you cannot tell, I'm not spending much time reading this since, well, it should be fairly obvious who wins this as I'd already stated.
> 
> However, I did see somebody say that Aqua can do a ranged Reflect.  That's incorrect.  She can use a spell called Barrier.  It's NOT Reflect.  It's a completely different spell altogether.



Ensoriki said it.

At the moment he has no idea what the HELL he is talking about.

Not only that but he has yet to provide any information that Aqua is superior to Sora.


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## ensoriki (Nov 20, 2010)

Bender said:


> Ensoriki said it.


Even if it's my mistake your the same one saying Sora can do the same thing a ranged reflect. We were both wrong so stop acting with superiority 



> At the moment he has no idea what the HELL he is talking about.


Get off your high horse. I found your statement that does not say what you were claiming and you still think it does for some reason despite that.



> Not only that but he has yet to provide any information that Aqua is superior to Sora.


The superiority of her opponent and again, in a battle Sora will just be smashing on her barrier which she can shatter right back into him.


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