# Edward 'Whitebeard' Newgate vs Bleachverse



## Brightsteel (Mar 13, 2014)

Tis their time of youth, Tis the time of folly, tis the time of defiance!  Tis the time to challenge the logic of Babyjesus!

Nah. Well partially anyways. So the Whitebeard that attacked Marinesford vs Bleachverse. No Primebeard 

State: Bloodlusted

Knowledge: All for Whitebeard and none for Bleachverse. They only know he's invading. 

Whitebeard two hours prep. No heart attacks, or natural occurrences or illness to slow him down.

One on One as a Guantlet with no healing

All at once.

Or Guantlet with healing. 

Can he do it?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 13, 2014)

Wrong section, also Whitebeard rapes Bleach in any which way.


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## megaman12321 (Mar 13, 2014)

Doesn't this go under mainstream?

A Earthquake punch to the stomach wreaks. And even if they can fly Whitebeard cracked the air with his earthquakes. He also reacted to Kizaru, who is one of the faster people in One Piece


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 13, 2014)

Wrong section .


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## Mexikorn (Mar 13, 2014)

we have yet to wait for kenpachi bankai feats


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 13, 2014)

OP keeps making bad threads


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## Brightsteel (Mar 13, 2014)

Eh. While all my threads aren't that high quality,  I wouldn't say all of them were bad.


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## egressmadara (Mar 14, 2014)

Bleachverse needs more Sternritter hax.


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## Darth Niggatron (Mar 14, 2014)

I'm disappoint, Bright. Your future so bright, it looked.


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## Revan Reborn (Mar 14, 2014)

couldn't monster aizen just regen from his quakes?
or did mugetsu get debunked?


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## Rivers (Mar 15, 2014)

slayedigneel said:


> couldn't monster aizen just regen from his quakes?
> or did mugetsu get debunked?



Why would Mugetsu have been debunked? Actually, Im still not sure why Yamamoto's bankai calc was debunked...


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## Tacocat (Mar 15, 2014)

Why would it matter? Whitebeard doesn't have to stop quaking.


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## trance (Mar 15, 2014)

Wasn't there some shit about Yama being small country level or something?


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## Tacocat (Mar 15, 2014)

His suicide attack is in the teratons.


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## P-X 12 (Mar 15, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Wasn't there some shit about Yama being small country level or something?



That's him releasing his bankai's flames all at once. 

Which he himself stated would get himself killed as well, so at best, it'd assure a draw for him and kill everyone else in the area, not that it matters much anyways. 

Yama doesn't get durability scaling from Mugetsu or the suicide bankai attack for obvious reasons, so he's stuck at city level for durability, along with pretty much anyone else from Bleach. Unfortunately for them, good ol' Whitebeard's got a pretty big speed advantage as well as small country level DC too, so, yeah, barring them getting a lot faster, they get quaked. Hard.


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## trance (Mar 15, 2014)

I don't remember Newgate being able to survive an attack in the teratons.


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## Tacocat (Mar 15, 2014)

You think Yama's going to suicide right off the bat, killing all of his subordinates for something he doesn't know is necessary (nor does he know will work, for that matter)? He'll try to engage Whitebeard.


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## P-X 12 (Mar 15, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> I don't remember Newgate being able to survive an attack in the teratons.



Doesn't have to. Unless Yama can use the suicide tech faster than Newgate can quake him (which he can't due to him being faster), he dies before anything happens. He can't tank any of bloodlusted Newgate's hits.

And if he tries literally anything else, he's even more fucked.


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## Stermor (Mar 15, 2014)

yama also has never shown to be able to even release all his flames at ones.. he has never actually used 1/1000000 of the power he is suposed to have.. 

that combined with the weak statements on which the calc is based on.. plus the idiocy of yama for not just vaporizing aizen if it would only require less 0.1% of his power..

yama's suicide flames is not usable in anyway.. and them beeing that powerful should be instantly be classed as a outlier.. with 1% of their totaly power still beeing more then anything ever shown in bleach put together..


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## Revan Reborn (Mar 15, 2014)

aizen distracts, ichigo mugetsu's


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## Tir (Mar 15, 2014)

Mugetsu should do the job, WB's advantage is his speed. Equalize speed, Mugetsu owns him


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## Lurko (Mar 15, 2014)

I have a feeling the Spirit King will end up the strongest on the hst by far.


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## Byrd (Mar 15, 2014)

Tir said:


> Mugetsu should do the job, WB's advantage is his speed. Equalize speed, Mugetsu owns him



Equalize speed and he stills has faster reactions thanks to CoO...


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## Tacocat (Mar 15, 2014)

slayedigneel said:


> aizen distracts, ichigo mugetsu's



You act like CoO isn't a thing.


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## B Rabbit (Mar 15, 2014)

CgGM already made a comic on this.


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## Dellinger (Mar 15, 2014)

Tir said:


> Mugetsu should do the job, WB's advantage is his speed. Equalize speed, Mugetsu owns him



Equalize speed and still his attack is much easier to perform.


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## Yoda90 (Mar 15, 2014)

P-X 12 said:


> Doesn't have to. Unless Yama can use the suicide tech faster than Newgate can quake him (which he can't due to him being faster), he dies before anything happens. He can't tank any of bloodlusted Newgate's hits.
> 
> And if he tries literally anything else, he's even more fucked.



No offense, but whitebeard is below him when it comes to who's faster. Yammamoto is faster than him would slash him much faster than he'd hit him with a quake. All this is nice if newgate can hit him in the first place. He can't hit someone that is flying or someone that is as hot as the sun.


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## Yoda90 (Mar 15, 2014)

P-X 12 said:


> That's him releasing his bankai's flames all at once.
> 
> Which he himself stated would get himself killed as well, so at best, it'd assure a draw for him and kill everyone else in the area, not that it matters much anyways.
> 
> Yama doesn't get durability scaling from Mugetsu or the suicide bankai attack for obvious reasons, so he's stuck at city level for durability, along with pretty much anyone else from Bleach. Unfortunately for them, good ol' Whitebeard's got a pretty big speed advantage as well as small country level DC too, so, yeah, barring them getting a lot faster, they get quaked. Hard.



Where is proof of his superior speed? yammamoto has displayed much better speed with his shunpo. Whitebeard is a huge mass who can't really move that fast. He is strong but i think speed is absolutely not his forth. Perhaps it's because he's too big.


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## B Rabbit (Mar 15, 2014)

Lol no. Just no


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## Byrd (Mar 15, 2014)

Yoda90 said:


> No offense, but whitebeard is below him when it comes to who's faster. Yammamoto is faster than him would slash him much faster than he'd hit him with a quake.* All this is nice if newgate can hit him in the first place. He can't hit someone that is flying or someone that is as hot as the sun.*


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## Yoda90 (Mar 15, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> Lol no. Just no




Lol, to be honest, I think it'd be hard for him to approach a man compressed with 15 million degrees of heat. Well, he can always quake him from far away, which would work in injuring him and in not sustaining any damage from the heat. However yammamoto can always fly to dodge the quake sent towards his direction and just close the distance to burn him.


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## Byrd (Mar 15, 2014)

Yoda90 said:


> Lol, to be honest, I think it'd be hard for him to approach a man compressed with 15 million degrees of heat. Well, he can always quake him from far away, which would work in injuring him and in not sustaining any damage from the heat. However yammamoto can always fly to dodge the quake sent towards his direction and just close the distance to burn him.


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## Tacocat (Mar 15, 2014)

Whitebeard gets scaling from better quantified speed feats. A bunch of speed lines and blitz trope hardly indicate Yamamoto's superiority.

Flight might actually be a concern, though.


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## Yoda90 (Mar 15, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> He tagged Kizaru




from the looks of it, i don't think he tagged him. Tag would be a person running at kizaru while kizaru is in mid velocity or accelerating in the opposite direction due to his fruit's power. whitebeard slashed him before he was able to go to another direction from his initial location. just my opinion.


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## Tacocat (Mar 15, 2014)

Oh wait, no it's not. Where's all this speed equal crap coming from? OP doesn't dictate that.


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## Yoda90 (Mar 15, 2014)

SuperTacocat said:


> Whitebeard gets scaling from better quantified speed feats. A bunch of speed lines and blitz trope hardly indicate Yamamoto's superiority.
> 
> Flight might actually be a concern, though.



Well, i know there are other fast characters in the series that whitebeard can be scaled to, but it is a bit iffy if you think about it. I think, in spite of his rank, he shouldn't be an exception to be powerscaled to other characters. Yammamoto has shown good speed feats by moving at fast speeds by virtue of his shunpo. 

ye man, it is difficult to pint point how wb will injure a guy that is flying meters above him. maybe an onslaught barrage of quakes above him?


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## Yoda90 (Mar 15, 2014)

couldn't he just destroy multiple countries with his bankai? he can do it? he may even be continent level.


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## Tacocat (Mar 15, 2014)

Yoda90 said:


> Lol, to be honest, I think it'd be hard for him to approach a man compressed with 15 million degrees of heat. Well, he can always quake him from far away, which would work in injuring him and in not sustaining any damage from the heat. However yammamoto can always fly to dodge the quake sent towards his direction and just close the distance to burn him.


Then...look up thermodynamics.



Yoda90 said:


> from the looks of it, i don't think he tagged him. Tag would be a person running at kizaru while kizaru is in mid velocity or accelerating in the opposite direction due to his fruit's power. whitebeard slashed him before he was able to go to another direction from his initial location. just my opinion.


Devil Fruit mechanics aside, did you just assert that photons accelerate? 



Yoda90 said:


> Well, i know there are other fast characters in the series that whitebeard can be scaled to, but it is a bit iffy if you think about it. I think, in spite of his rank, he shouldn't be an exception in being powerscaled to other characters. Yammamoto has shown good speed feats by moving at fast speeds by virtue of his shunpo.
> 
> ye man, it is difficult to pint point how wb will injure a guy that is flying meters above him. maybe an onslaught barrage of quakes above him?


Why shouldn't he be? He's fought CQC with top-tiers.

And he doesn't give a darn about flight with speed unequal. Yama tries to fly, Whitebeard grabs his foot and gives him a quake to the face.

Plus, again, Yama's going to try and engage him in CQC...which will be the death of him. Bloodlust means he's out for blood, not that he'll automatically go for the winning strategy (which won't give him the win anyway, considering Whitebeard can tank his shit 6 ways to Sunday).


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## Yoda90 (Mar 15, 2014)

SuperTacocat said:


> Then...look up thermodynamics.
> 
> 
> Devil Fruit mechanics aside, did you just assert that photons accelerate?
> ...




I don't know much about photons, but what i meant was, kizaru's photons were already in movement and that he wasn't fully moving at a certain speed which a few here believe whitebeard was able to intercept him in mid movement.

he can't grab him though. he is slower. Yamammoto is faster than he is. He has shown the speed feat capable to get away from harm's way. there were many opportunities for whitebeard to showcase his speed during the  mf war but it was to no avail. he should have dodged bullets and like dodge fodder marines but he wasn't able to :sydpuck


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## Tacocat (Mar 15, 2014)

Yoda90 said:


> I don't know much about photons, but what i meant was, kizaru's photons were already in movement and that he wasn't fully moving at a certain speed which a few here believe whitebeard was able to intercept him in mid movement.


Photons don't accelerate. Light always "fully [moves] at a certain speed", the only variable is the medium through which it propagates.



> he can't grab him though. he is slower. Yamammoto is faster than he is.


Because you say so?



> He has shown the speed feat capable to get away from harm's way. there were many opportunities for whitebeard to showcase his speed during the  mf war but it was to no avail. he should have dodged bullets and like dodge fodder marines but he wasn't able to :sydpuck


Yeah, and Flash, the living embodiment of speed who could blitz the everloving fuck out of any HST character quintillions of times over before they could even shit themselves, should invariably dodge bullets, too. Does he always do so? No, because plot is a thing. Is he still fast as hell? Yes.


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## Yoda91 (Mar 15, 2014)

SuperTacocat said:


> Photons don't accelerate. Light always "fully [moves] at a certain speed", the only variable is the medium through which it propagates.
> 
> 
> Because you say so?
> ...




It's irrelevant in this debate. The fact is that kizaru wasn't in full movement when whitebeard slashed him. He barely was in full movement so we can't assess that as a legitimate speed feat of wb.

No, because he is actually slow and failed to dodge bullet and fodder. Yammamoto has a move that allows him to move at speeds fast enough to make him seem like he disapeared. Whitebeard barely has any decent speed feats to keep up with him.

It is not a CIS OR PIS. Flash's case was different. Don't take things out of context. Flash was able to move at the speed of light and even beyond that. Why he was hit by bullets is completely stupid of the author's part since it contradicts the speed at which he can move, which is faster than bullets. Much faster. You're taking things out of context, mate. Whitebeard's case cannot be viewed as a CIS OR PIS. This is a made up claim to soften the fact that he isn't fast just so he can stil be viewed as a fighter who can contend against top tiers from other verses.  I refer you to a scan in which we see whitebeard failing to dodge bullets when time was of essence to him in allowing his crew to escape. He was also not able to dodge fodder pirates. It's clear portrayal of his slow speed by Oda himself, not you, but Oda.


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## Tacocat (Mar 15, 2014)

I realize this is pointless, but 


Yoda91 said:


> It's irrelevant in this debate. The fact is that kizaru wasn't in full movement when whitebeard slashed him. He barely was in full movement so we can't assess that as a legitimate speed feat of wb.


You didn't listen to a thing I just said. Light can _only_ propagate in "full movement".



> No, because he is actually slow and failed to dodge bullet and fodder. Yammamoto has a move that allows him to move at speeds fast enough to make him seem like he disapeared. Whitebeard barely has any decent speed feats to keep up with him.


One can move faster than the eye and still be too slow to dodge bullets from melee distance.



> It is not a CIS OR PIS. [*Whitebeard*]'s case was different. Don't take things out of context. [*Whitebeard*] [*is scaled from the speed of falling meteors*] and even beyond that. Why he was hit by bullets is completely stupid of the author's part since it contradicts the speed at which he can move, which is faster than bullets. Much faster.


Your selective allowance is frowned upon around these parts 

You're also asserting that Whitebeard is < the M3, who have been bullet timing for nearly the entire manga.



> It's clear portrayal of his slow speed by Oda himself, not you, but Oda.


That's rich. You're the one dictating Oda's intent, not I.


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## Rivers (Mar 15, 2014)

Stermor said:


> that combined with the weak statements on which the calc is based on.. plus the idiocy of yama for not just vaporizing aizen if it would only require less 0.1% of his power..



What weak statements are you referring to?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 15, 2014)

The amount of wanking for Clorox here is sickening, Whitebeard is faster and he doesn't even have to get close


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## shade0180 (Mar 15, 2014)

what the fuck happened with this thread..


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## Yoda92 (Mar 15, 2014)

SuperTacocat said:


> I realize this is pointless, but
> 
> You didn't listen to a thing I just said. Light can _only_ propagate in "full movement".
> 
> ...





It seems you have selective reading and are choosing to ignore what I wrote. The intent of my presence in this thread is to debunk the wildly known and ?accepted? fact among the users of this site, which is about whitebeard supposedly reacting/slashing a mid-movement Kizaru. There was absolutely no way to tell if he was in mid movement, whereas there is a way to tell if he wasn?t. First, Kizaru hadn?t arrived at the destination he conducted a passage of light at before using it as a medium to propel through it to make it at the predetermined goal. 

He wasn?t able to fully charge it to arrive at the destination because whitebeard intercepted him from doing so by slashing the passage of light. Second of all, Kizaru was distracted and ignored white beard despite being near him and then it?s not as if he tried to make a motion at the velocity of light to arrive at the destination, but it?s that the time that it requires for him to charge his light to arrive at another destination takes a great deal of time, which essentially was what allowed white beard to slash him 

Well, I might as well agree with you here, but I never stated otherwise to what you just wrote. I never stated that Yammamoto was faster than bullets now, did I? just that he was FASTER than whitebeard. This is a common fact that cannot be repudiated. Whitebeard was getting tagged by fodder marines wielding swords and getting his body pierced by bullets. If he were the speed you claim him to be capable of moving, he should have had no problem dodging said projectile and fodders. Face it, Yammamoto is just faster on the basis that he is superior to other shinigami who?ve shown decent speed feats and that he is faster than stark who was able to traverse hueco mundo in a short amount of time. 
Yammamoto can move at the speed of light and can create blackholes with his bankai. He is second only to the one and only. There are no worries and there shouldn?t be any here, literally.. Literally have no clue as to your ignorance of this fact.

Well, just because weaker characters showed decent speed feats does not imply that Whitebeard is eligible of being capable to move at said speed his inferiors moved at. Speed is not his forth according to Oda, the creator, himself, yet you try to somehow contradict what Oda said according to your own opinionated belief? How that makes sense to you is, erm, not hitting me positively. This is a non-equivalency fallacy. According to your logic, Moriah is faster than an ennies lobby Luffy, blueno and lucci. Whitebeard?s rank doesn?t and shouldn?t make it an exception to powerscale his speeds from other character that are his inferior if speed is not whitebeard?s forth.

There is nothing rich with the way you argue, if that what you meant? Don?t accuse me of doings thing without being prepared to show why your accusation of me is an objective claim; In other words, no evidence that I?ve been doing that. What I?ve been doing though is portraying the feats of the characters from what has been indicated in the manga, by the author, Oda. Not by some anime fan who wishes to misinterpret the feats just so the character he is bias for can have feats that aren?t in proportion to his feats shown in the manga so that they are capable to keep up with top tiers from other series.


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## shade0180 (Mar 15, 2014)

So after your dupe got banned you already made a new one just to fucking type a wall of text?



> He wasn’t able to fully charge it to arrive at the destination because whitebeard *intercepted him from doing so by slashing the passage of lig*ht. Second of all, Kizaru was distracted and ignored white beard despite being near him and then it’s not as if he tried to make a motion at the velocity of light to arrive at the destination, but it’s that the time that it requires for him to charge his light to arrive at another destination takes a great deal of time, which essentially was what allowed white beard to slash him



Reyleigh is the one that did this not whitebeard...... 



> He wasn’t able to fully charge



Kizaru isn't a battery. he never charges....


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## Yoda92 (Mar 15, 2014)

ye, becuz mvc fucking bann me so stop, im coming back to mvc in 1 week and i thought we can make more then 2 account here?


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## Tacocat (Mar 15, 2014)

Oh my God, I'm not reading that.

If your main argument is going to be author intent, then I'll just tell you Oda stated that Kuma's attacks propagate at the speed of light, Thriller Bark Zoro dodged them from melee distance while severely injured, and Whitebeard is faster than an injured pre-skip Zoro no matter how you slice it. You're gonna go that route? Then fine, but we have statements that invalidate your interpretation of Oda's intention. Either way, your argument means jack-all here.

>l2physics
>l2author intent
>l2powerscale


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## Byrd (Mar 15, 2014)

Why does he sounds like mirage in that wall of text


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## Lurko (Mar 15, 2014)

You guys know mirage isn't where it started right? Otherwise you're in a mirage.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 15, 2014)

Someone post that Edit of White-beard one shoting dudes in the bleach-verse.

Cause thats what happens here.


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## shade0180 (Mar 15, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __


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## Sablés (Mar 15, 2014)

Aizen traps him in Kyoka Suigetsu. Assuming anyone hax-related is still alive, they finish Whitebeard.


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## shade0180 (Mar 15, 2014)

Er yea problem is whitebeard still has CoO and CoA....  so it won't really work....


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## Sablés (Mar 15, 2014)

shade0180 said:


> Er yea problem is whitebeard still has CoO and CoA....  so it won't really work....



I'm not sure what business CoA has here.

Does CoO have feats of functioning efficiently under standard duress, not to mention false sensory information? I could point to half a dozen instances in Marineford where top-tiers failed to predict on-coming attacks due to their divided attention.


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 15, 2014)

The problem with Aizen's illusions isn't how strong they are (though, they are very strong); it's that they're incredibly subtle and hard to spot, and Aizen himself is a ruthless opportunist. Even if Whitebeard were able to break out, that doesn't mean that he'd be able to notice the small details amiss in time before Aizen manages to land a hit on him.

I'm not saying that Aizen could beat him, but that's definitely something to keep in mind.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 15, 2014)

I almost forgot about this ... This one is seriously becoming my next signature in the far future .


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## megaman12321 (Mar 15, 2014)

What the hell happened in a day to cause this mess?

What's CoO and CoA?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 15, 2014)

CoO is the universal answer to everything


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## Byrd (Mar 15, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> I'm not sure what business CoA has here.
> 
> Does CoO have feats of functioning efficiently under standard duress, not to mention false sensory information? I could point to half a dozen instances in Marineford where top-tiers failed to predict on-coming attacks due to their divided attention.



 there is the issue where even when you have CoO if the oppenent is faster than you can react its pretty much mooted.

Its hard to tell exactly what happen there


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## Fujita (Mar 15, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Does CoO have feats of functioning efficiently under standard duress



Enel was able to read Luffy's next move, even while lying prone and unable to actually dodge because of injuries.  



> not to mention false sensory information?



Enel could effectively fight with his eyes closed. That's... roughly comparable to what Aizen's capable of (that he can create apparently solid illusions is, I think, the only really new wrinkle)



> I could point to half a dozen instances in Marineford where top-tiers failed to predict on-coming attacks due to their divided attention.



Not the same. Focusing on CoO would pretty effectively reduce the distraction provided by the illusions below what it'd be for many real people 

But it wouldn't be an instant adaptation, so at least at first Whitebeard will have problems


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## B Rabbit (Mar 15, 2014)

Lol like always take MF with a grain of slt. 

Its so cluster fuck you cnt even use some feats.


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## Sablés (Mar 15, 2014)

Byrd said:


> there is the issue where even when you have CoO if the oppenent is faster than you can react its pretty much mooted.
> 
> Its hard to tell exactly what happen there



That's not at all what I meant.

Take for example, Whitebeard and Squardo, Marco/Vista and Akainu, Marco and Aokiji, Marco and Garp

4 instances where CoO failed to prevent the users getting rek't by guys on their general/lower tier. All occurred when they were distracted for one reason or another. The mechanics of CoO are still pretty damn vague and only seem work in select scenarios, it's bs to use it as a Universal answer for illusions when it has not been fully tested under conventional circumstances in verse.


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## Sablés (Mar 15, 2014)

Fujita said:


> Enel was able to read Luffy's next move, even while lying prone and unable to actually dodge because of injuries.
> 
> 
> 
> Enel could effectively fight with his eyes closed. That's... roughly comparable to what Aizen's capable of (that he can create apparently solid illusions is, I think, the only really new wrinkle)



Aren't  there exceptions within CoO users like Enel and Otohime, the former was able to read minds because of his Devil Fruit and the latter to empathize with emotions, IIRC. They have benefits the standard users do not



> Not the same. Focusing on CoO would pretty effectively reduce the distraction provided by the illusions below what it'd be for many real people
> 
> But it wouldn't be an instant adaptation, so at least at first Whitebeard will have problems



From what I know CoO gives the user a mental image of what's to come in the future but we know it isn't that perfect. Enel's CoO failed to predict Luffy's attacks when they began bouncing off walls and the two were more or less physically comparable so it isn't an infallible defense mechanism.

Whitebeard is going against the entire verse, each fighter  with different methods of combat and thinking patterns while having his own senses warped by whatever Aizen or even Shinji as well thinks up. Exactly which of these will Whitebeard be focusing on?


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## Fujita (Mar 15, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Whitebeard and Squardo



Not a combat scenario (same deal with the idiocy with the Yeti Cool bros). Bad example. And, as I recall some of his division commanders noted that he should have been able to dodge that had he been healthy, though this isn't exactly relevant here. 



> Marco/Vista and Akainu



Guy got hit with attacks that he should have _seen_ coming, CoO be damned. But sure, let's grant that some CoO user got sneak attacked while focusing on other people, because I can't remember where your other examples were in the manga and because I'm pretty sure that this _has_ happened before.   



> The mechanics of CoO are still pretty damn vague



I'd say the opposite, really. It's use isn't made explicit in fights where it would logically not make much of a difference (people on Marco's level vs the Admirals, Rayleigh vs Kizaru), but there are enough examples where that isn't the case to give us a pretty good idea of what people using it are capable of. 



> and only seem work in select scenarios, it's bs to use it as a Universal answer for illusions when it has not been fully tested under conventional circumstances in verse.



I'll argue this point later with respect to illusions specifically. You're probably right as far as fighting multiple opponents with CoO goes.



Sabl?s said:


> Aren't  there exceptions within CoO users like Enel and Otohime, the former was able to read minds because of his Devil Fruit and the latter to empathize with emotions, IIRC. They have benefits the standard users do not



Coby described hearing voices, same as Aisa, who kept sobbing when people fought in her village. As I recall the experience fucked him up emotionally as well, to the point that he delivered his speech to Akainu. Unlike Aisa (and presumably Otohime) who was born with it, his awakening was treated as pretty standard. 

As for Enel, it's a bit questionable to say that his extra abilities (hearing thoughts and increased range IIRC) make him far better at the standard skill set than other extremely good CoO users. No doubt he can do things they can't, but how does that make his precog better?



> From what I know CoO gives the user a mental image of what's to come in the future but we know it isn't that perfect. Enel's CoO failed to predict Luffy's attacks when they began bouncing off walls and the two were more or less physically comparable so it isn't an infallible defense mechanism.



Works as a sort of indirect mind reading, yeah, which is why it doesn't work against attacks that don't have some conscious thought behind them. 

Why does this matter for illusions, exactly?



> Whitebeard is going against the entire verse, each fighter  with different methods of combat and thinking patterns while having his own senses warped by whatever Aizen or even Shinji as well thinks up. Exactly which of these will Whitebeard be focusing on?



Well, yes.

But the dogpile and the illusions are two separate problems that Whitebeard would face CoO-wise. The point I was replying to was whether CoO would help Whitebeard against Aizen's illusions.   

So, taking illusions by themselves? 

CoO lets you sense presences. An illusion will be effectively invisible to your Haki, while there will also be presences that don't appear to be there in your vision. So this landscape would "look" really strange to a CoO user from the onset. That makes me a bit skeptical that "they get tunnel-vision, focus only on the invisible-to-CoO illusions, and completely miss the actual attack" is at all a likely scenario. 

Not to mention that there shouldn't be any interference (CoO-wise) from the illusions, making the actual people stand out better. Comparison with facing a bunch of people on a battlefield doesn't really hold for that reason as well. 

Of course, you'd have to be a bit thick to say that illusions will do absolutely nothing. They'll be confusing as hell, particularly at first. But CoO does, I think, provide a valid and plausible defense mechanism against them. 

Well, unless it's some sense-lock like Tsukuyomi or some sort of complete sense fuckery. Then they're just screwed.


----------



## Tir (Mar 16, 2014)

Byrd said:


> Equalize speed and he stills has faster reactions thanks to CoO...



How good is his CoO? pre-cog is good and all, but even then it's not like nothing can overcome it. 
also, I don't know bout you guys, but I think that WB is the type to tank attacks instead of dodging.



> Not a combat scenario (same deal with the idiocy with the Yeti Cool bros). Bad example. And, as I recall some of his division commanders noted that he should have been able to dodge that had he been healthy, though this isn't exactly relevant here.


Rayleigh managed to dodge attacks from an elephant even though it's not a combat scenario. being able to use pre-cog, he should have seen the attack coming.


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## Ashi (Mar 16, 2014)

Banned thread is banned


----------



## Fujita (Mar 16, 2014)

Please don't close before Sables replies  



Tir said:


> Rayleigh managed to dodge attacks from an elephant even though it's not a combat scenario. being able to use pre-cog, he should have seen the attack coming.





> Rayleigh taking note of all the beasts on the island 
> elephant making noise as it tramples through the underbrush 
> Luffy running his mouth about the elephant 

all before the elephant actually started to attack 

Rayleigh knew the thing was there and that it would probably attack. How exactly would you not define that as a "combat scenario" 

And how on earth would you compare that to standing in the middle of all your allies


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## B Rabbit (Mar 16, 2014)

Its Tir.

Basically.


----------



## BabyJesus (Mar 16, 2014)

This should be yamamoto vs one piece verse
I leave this here - by me


> His bankai's ability is to take his flames and his power and absorb it into heat (15 million degrees ) for his bankai and he is missing an arm so he's weaker too.
> His bankai has 4 moves (that were shown)
> Zanka no tachi - east
> All the heat is focused on the edge so no mass and it doesn't burn or fire up
> ...


Basically reiastu heat.
And Kizaru? light=energy so yama erases him or reiatsu crush (I'm assuming kizaru has a soul right? 

Aizen's illusion affects the five senses so goodbye whitebeard.
Sword>>>>>>whitebeard


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## Fujita (Mar 16, 2014)

BabyJesus said:


> Basically reiastu heat.



That's nice

Now show that this means something besides "oooh a really big temperature number"  



> And Kizaru? light=energy so yama erases him







> or reiatsu crush (I'm assuming kizaru has a soul right?



Feats of reiatsu crushing somebody as strong as Kizaru please 



> Aizen's illusion affects the five senses so goodbye whitebeard.



Read the above discussion 



> Sword>>>>>>whitebeard


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## Alita (Mar 16, 2014)

shade0180 said:


> what the fuck happened with this thread..


The same thing that happens to just about every thread in this section. 

Whitbeard wins.


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## Rivers (Mar 16, 2014)

This is probably the only section on the internet where Whitebeard does win...


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 16, 2014)

BabyJesus said:


> This should be yamamoto vs one piece verse
> I leave this here - by me
> 
> Basically reiastu heat.
> And Kizaru? light=energy so yama erases him or reiatsu crush (I'm assuming kizaru has a soul right?



It's really good, but tell me again, how did Yamamoto regenerate that hole in his head that he got in the 0.1 sec of the fight ? Oh, yeah, he didn't and died against Kizaru .



> Aizen's illusion affects the five senses so goodbye whitebeard.
> Sword>>>>>>whitebeard



Because Aizen of course is fast enough to do Shikai or Bankai when the enemy is more than 4 times faster and have to swing his arm to kill Aizen, right ?


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## Revan Reborn (Mar 16, 2014)

you guys are forgetting that there is multiply bleach characters, so white beard has to react to all of them, tessai stops time ichigo mugetsu's that all that's needed, also has white beard shown any signs of being immune to fear?(as nodt)/ aizen can regen from his quakes/his shikai, barragan ages him to dust, shinji reverses his senses, shunsui takaoni's ( insta kill) rukia's AZ,yamma's zanka no tachi


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 16, 2014)

Aizen can't regenerate his quakes . And we all know that he has to kill from all sides, he simply can spam quakes to every direction, it's not like he's not fast enough to do this before they do the first attack .


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## Tir (Mar 16, 2014)

Fujita said:


> > Rayleigh taking note of all the beasts on the island
> > elephant making noise as it tramples through the underbrush
> > Luffy running his mouth about the elephant
> 
> ...


I wouldn't say it was combat scenario. 



Fujita said:


> And how on earth would you compare that to standing in the middle of all your allies


You can. WB was in the middle of war and him not activating his CoO is pretty much impossible. Especially when you have Akainu as your possible opponent.





B Rabbit said:


> blub blub


Very intelligent argument. I concede.



> Aizen can't regenerate his quakes


Aizen has regenerated from an attack of similar power before. I think an attack with big AoE would finish him, something that WB lacked.


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## Tacocat (Mar 16, 2014)

Egh, so many posts. Just gonna pop in and say that Aizen regenerated from _one_ attack on the level of Whitebeard's quakes...except he was still pretty incapacitated, and the Hogyoku rejected him afterward. Why would that fail to happen in this scenario? Especially when Whitebeard can continue quaking him till he's a fine red mist.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 16, 2014)

I don't remember nothing in the teraton level from nobody in Bleach except for Yama, and I'm pretty sure that Yama didn't do that against Aizen because Yama would die too and Yama died against Juuha Bach . Could you tell me what's this attack that Aizen regenerated ?


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## Tir (Mar 16, 2014)

SuperTacocat said:


> Egh, so many posts. Just gonna pop in and say that Aizen regenerated from _one_ attack on the level of Whitebeard's quakes...except he was still pretty incapacitated, and the Hogyoku rejected him afterward. Why would that fail to happen in this scenario? Especially when Whitebeard can continue quaking him till he's a fine red mist.


So, how strong WB's quake again? is it in tt or gt? because if it's in gt, it won't harm him that much...we know that it would take teraton level attack to incapacitate him...



> I don't remember nothing in the teraton level from nobody in Bleach except for Yama, and I'm pretty sure that Yama didn't do that against Aizen because Yama would die too and Yama died against Juuha Bach . Could you tell me what's this attack that Aizen regenerated ?


Dangai Ichigo and possibly monster Aizen are >>>>> Bankai Yama.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 16, 2014)

Nope . Aizen and Ichigo might be > Yama . But in DC Yama's suicidal attack is the best thing Bleach gets and it was noted that nobody have that kinda of DC, even because you don't need that to kill Yama .


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 16, 2014)

Mugetsu >= yamas suicide bankai, lel






> and the Hogyoku rejected him afterward.


plot bullshit 

he wanted friends/was lonely hence loss or some shit .. he should try MLP


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## Darth Niggatron (Mar 16, 2014)

You're getting worse. Who'd have thunked it?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 16, 2014)

The Hogyoku has self-consciousness ?

Edit: So, in conclusio ... Teraton Ichigo ? And Bleach > OP ?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 16, 2014)

only Mugetsu itself is teratons


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## Darth Niggatron (Mar 16, 2014)

Umm...no.
Teraton Mugetsu and suicide attack. Both are pretty useless from an OBD perspective.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 16, 2014)

> And Bleach > OP ?


does that make you cry ?


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 16, 2014)

Make me cry on my bed on fetal position . 

Why are both useless ? I thought Mugetsu was a slash hyper duper strong that Ichigo does ? How would this be useless ?


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## Darth Niggatron (Mar 16, 2014)

Cos y'know he becomes piss weak after?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 16, 2014)

So what ? He already killed the person, so he can become as weak as it gets . So he soloes OP(In gauntlet style with heals at least) . But passes out after .


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 16, 2014)

no he doesn't, not even with speed equal


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm really confuse about this . I'll wait till Bleach ends and I'll read and then I'll have my answers probably .


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## Source (Mar 16, 2014)

> Just gonna pop in and say that Aizen regenerated from one attack on the level of Whitebeard's quakes.



Why do you need a Mugetsu level attack to beat Aizen exactly?


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## Hurricane Smoker (Mar 16, 2014)

Whitebeard Owns


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## Iwandesu (Mar 16, 2014)

Source said:


> Why do you need a Mugetsu level attack to beat Aizen exactly?


Because...
He was still trying to regenerate after this and without plot bullshit would probably do so.  
Still, yeah,  multiple gigatons attacks should be more than enough as this is only durability + regeneration.  While WB is stronger than anything bleach has he does lacks most AOE and hax.  I never though i would say this but after reading through the Postscript i would say bleach does have a  meaningless chance.
 I Will stick with wb soloing bleach with mid difficult due to speed, precognition and dc, then


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## Fujita (Mar 16, 2014)

Rivers said:


> This is probably the only section on the internet where Whitebeard does win...



And?



Tir said:


> I wouldn't say it was combat scenario.



Okay... I suppose we could quibble over what "combat scenario" means, but I'd rather not



> You can. WB was in the middle of war and him not activating his CoO is pretty much impossible. Especially when you have Akainu as your possible opponent.



Perhaps. There's a difference between having it active, though, and paying strict attention to it, or paying attention to everyone with it. If I was WB, I'd be tracking the Admirals, not Squad. 

Like I said, though, he apparently _should_ have been able to dodge that, but his sickness came into play.


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## Shozan (Mar 16, 2014)

Gin and Urahara with prep fuck him easily. for real.


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## Darth Niggatron (Mar 16, 2014)

Just....make it stop....please.


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## Source (Mar 16, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Because...
> He was still trying to regenerate after this and without plot bullshit would probably do so.
> Still, yeah,  multiple gigatons attacks should be more than enough as this is only durability + regeneration.  While WB is stronger than anything bleach has he does lacks most AOE and hax.  I never though i would say this but after reading through the Postscript i would say bleach does have a  meaningless chance.
> I Will stick with wb soloing bleach with mid difficult due to speed, precognition and dc, then



All Aizen regenerating from Mugetsu means that he can regen from being cut in half. 

If an attack weaker than Mugetsu that still vastly exceeds Aizen's durability (which is nowhere near teraton level)+isn't a cutting attack lands a hit on him he's done, since it will do much more than cut him in half.


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## LazyWaka (Mar 16, 2014)

Source said:


> All Aizen regenerating from Mugetsu means that he can regen from being cut in half.
> 
> If an attack weaker than Mugetsu that still vastly exceeds Aizen's durability (which is nowhere near teraton level)+isn't a cutting attack lands a hit on him he's done, since it will do much more than cut him in half.



WB's quakes aren't exactly much more effective against regenerative foes than cutting attacks either. He just breaks them into large pieces, you don't need much better regen to handle something like that compared to getting cut in half vertically honestly.


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## Piecesis (Mar 16, 2014)

I don't understand why anyone would want to reply back to mirage. lol. Anyways Wb quakes gg


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## Sablés (Mar 16, 2014)

Fujita said:


> Not a combat scenario (same deal with the idiocy with the Yeti Cool bros). Bad example. And, as I recall some of his division commanders noted that he should have been able to dodge that had he been healthy, though this isn't exactly relevant here.



Isn't CoO passive? That's sort of how I remember Luffy doing it. 




> I'd say the opposite, really. It's use isn't made explicit in fights where it would logically not make much of a difference (people on Marco's level vs the Admirals, Rayleigh vs Kizaru), but there are enough examples where that isn't the case to give us a pretty good idea of what people using it are capable of.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not quite what I was arguing. What is vague is _how _CoO grants pre-cog. Coby describes it as hearing voices (have no clue where that was from tbh but I'll take your word for it ), so do we assume that it's some pseudo-mind reading? Luffy's was an . I'm using Luffy as an example because his is the only instance where we see the functions of CoO first hand. Bit different from hearing voices 



> As for Enel, it's a bit questionable to say that his extra abilities (hearing thoughts and increased range IIRC) make him far better at the standard skill set than other extremely good CoO users. No doubt he can do things they can't, but how does that make his precog better?
> 
> 
> 
> Works as a sort of indirect mind reading, yeah, which is why it doesn't work against attacks that don't have some conscious thought behind them.



Actually, I was under the impression the mind-reading was exclusive to Enel because asides from him, the only other scenario where I recall seeing CoO in action was with Luffy where it looked like nothing of the sort. Ray may have explained it but fuck if I can remember.



> Well, yes.
> 
> But the dogpile and the illusions are two separate problems that Whitebeard would face CoO-wise. The point I was replying to was whether CoO would help Whitebeard against Aizen's illusions.
> 
> ...




Well sure however KS isn't just limited to creating simple illusions.  Unohana needed several days to affirm that Aizen's body was never real. Yamamoto could only discern that the one to stab chest was truly Aizen because of the specificty of reiatsu, the feeling or presence of the arm he currently grabbed onto by itself was not enough nor was the reiatsu of the sword in his chest. 

This is supported by Captains who can sense reiatsu at all times are incapable of discerning KS' illusions without experience like Unohana and Yamamoto and even then, only at close proximity with the illusion.  Heck Aizen had fakes follow the Captains around and attend meetings and they couldn't tell the difference.

So long as we agree that physical interference is a chink in CoO's armor, Imagine a hypothetical scenario where Aizen created several clones of himself. Their presence would be identical and should any attack WB, his senses would perceive the clones as real regardless of the insight his CoO would grant him.

There's also the matter of Aizen being capable of distorting Yhwach's perception of time as well. Would work quite nicely in miscontruing Whitebeard's timing


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## Sablés (Mar 16, 2014)

Source said:


> All Aizen regenerating from Mugetsu means that he can regen from being cut in half.
> 
> If an attack weaker than Mugetsu that still vastly exceeds Aizen's durability (which is nowhere near teraton level)+isn't a cutting attack lands a hit on him he's done, since it will do much more than cut him in half.



......You seem to forgetting Aizen shrugging off being obliterated at a cellular level by Gin's Bankai.


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## LazyWaka (Mar 16, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> ......You seem to forgetting Aizen shrugging off being obliterated at a cellular level by Gin's Bankai.



That only really effected his chest though. Regenerating from cellular destruction is really only impressive if it destroys you down to the last cell.


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## B Rabbit (Mar 16, 2014)

Go Waka still best debator.


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## Sablés (Mar 16, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> That only really effected his chest though. Regenerating from cellular destruction is really only impressive if it destroys you down to the last cell.



Learn something new every day

Wasn't Source arguing that because Aizen has only regened from being split in half that he can't do the same to WB's quakes? I just presented another more lethal form of damage instead. Not that a quake should be more lethal than Mugetsu anyways.


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## LazyWaka (Mar 16, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Learn something new every day
> 
> Wasn't Source arguing that because Aizen has only regened from being split in half that he can't do the same to WB's quakes? I just presented another more lethal form of damage instead. Not that a quake should be more lethal than Mugetsu anyways.



From the way you worded it sounded like you were suggesting that his entire body was destroyed by it.


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## BabyJesus (Mar 16, 2014)

> That's nice
> 
> Now show that this means something besides "oooh a really big temperature number"


Akainu magma - about 4000 to 5000 degrees 
Yamamoto - 15 million degrees
If you don't know what this means then > gfto

Debunk this:




> It's really good, but tell me again, how did Yamamoto regenerate that hole in his head that he got in the 0.1 sec of the fight ? Oh, yeah, he didn't and died against Kizaru .


Yama is faster anyway scaling from the negacion BEAM OF LIGHT that hisagi dodged.


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## Chad (Mar 16, 2014)

> the negacion BEAM OF LIGHT that hisagi dodged


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## Fujita (Mar 16, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Isn't CoO passive? That's sort of how I remember Luffy doing it.



Mm

Might be

Though I think Aisa and Otohime might be better examples of that. Luffy had no clue what he was doing, and afaik only had the one instance of using CoO unconsciously. If you use him as your example, you'd have to argue that Conqueror's Haki is also passive, when we know it isn't.  

However? Sight is passive, while focusing on something isn't. Seems logical that something similar might happen with CoO. And it would definitely provide a decent explanation for the many instances in which it's "failed." Though Aisa and Otohime seemed incapable of turning theirs off  



> Not quite what I was arguing. What is vague is _how _CoO grants pre-cog. Coby describes it as hearing voices (have no clue where that was from tbh but I'll take your word for it ), so do we assume that it's some pseudo-mind reading? Luffy's was an . I'm using Luffy as an example because his is the only instance where we see the functions of CoO first hand. Bit different from hearing voices



Ah, fair enough then. I seem to recall Coby talking about voices. Not really in a good position to drag out scans right now, but eh. Otohime and Aisa (and I think Coby though again... going off my memory here ) both used it to read emotions as well as actions (those would probably be the voices), while Luffy seeing a picture carried no emotions with it. Luffy, after the time skip, did note that he could sense something "like a beast" so he probably has that ability now that he can actually use his Haki



> Actually, I was under the impression the mind-reading was exclusive to Enel because asides from him, the only other scenario where I recall seeing CoO in action was with Luffy where it looked like nothing of the sort. Ray may have explained it but fuck if I can remember.



Hence my saying "indirect" there. It requires some conscious thought to interpret, but that doesn't mean that you necessarily have to have the ability to read that thought. Emotions are fair game though, for some people at least. 



> Well sure however KS isn't just limited to creating simple illusions.  Unohana needed several days to affirm that Aizen's body was never real. Yamamoto could only discern that the one to stab chest was truly Aizen because of the specificty of reiatsu, the feeling or presence of the arm he currently grabbed onto by itself was not enough nor was the reiatsu of the sword in his chest.



Can you run that by me again? Seems like you said the reiatsu didn't tip him off, but in the end it did...  



> This is supported by Captains who can sense reiatsu at all times are incapable of discerning KS' illusions without experience like Unohana and Yamamoto and even then, only at close proximity with the illusion.  Heck Aizen had fakes follow the Captains around and attend meetings and they couldn't tell the difference.
> 
> So long as we agree that physical interference is a chink in CoO's armor, Imagine a hypothetical scenario where Aizen created several clones of himself. Their presence would be identical and should any attack WB, his senses would perceive the clones as real regardless of the insight his CoO would grant him.
> 
> There's also the matter of Aizen being capable of distorting Yhwach's perception of time as well. Would work quite nicely in miscontruing Whitebeard's timing



Yeah, if Aizen can actually give his illusions some kind of presence, then that's definitely going to fuck over CoO users, not much point debating that  

Be interesting to see what Enel's mind reading would do against this, though


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## Byrd (Mar 16, 2014)

The attack didn't even phase WB at all 

granted he was weaken by his illness which was stated to affect his Haki by a significant amount... He couldn't use CoO or CoC effectively. 

and plus he was against thousands and thousands of troops who are the strongest the marines had to offer.. which include an unknown amount of captains, RA, VA, and the admirals themselves with ineffective haki.

Granted you can argued the case if this is old and sick WB... his Haki probably wouldn't allow him to dodge many of the Bleach attacks...  but the OP negated that so He will be able to dodge many of the attacks.

but it all falls under the notion can CoO be effective against illusions when against Aizen KS...

All the other attacks in-verse could be sense by CoO if I'm not mistaken


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## Source (Mar 16, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> WB's quakes aren't exactly much more effective against regenerative foes than cutting attacks either. He just breaks them into large pieces, you don't need much better regen to handle something like that compared to getting cut in half vertically honestly.



Oh, I'm not arguing for that. 

Just saw people saying that in multiple threads so I pointed it out.


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## Sablés (Mar 16, 2014)

Fujita said:


> Mm
> 
> Might be
> 
> ...



Hmm, the main reason I used Whitebeard and Squardo as an example was because his allies couldn't believe the old man actually got hit (Crocodile in particular) even if it was a surprise attack from a trusted 'son' at melee range. I think that indicates passivity in CoO to some degree otherwise their reactions were highly exaggerated. 



> Ah, fair enough then. I seem to recall Coby talking about voices. Not really in a good position to drag out scans right now, but eh. Otohime and Aisa (and I think Coby though again... going off my memory here ) both used it to read emotions as well as actions (those would probably be the voices), while Luffy seeing a picture carried no emotions with it. Luffy, after the time skip, did note that he could sense something "like a beast" so he probably has that ability now that he can actually use his Haki



Guess we can excuse Luffy's 'images' as a baseline ability of CoO since we know it can be improved on.



> Can you run that by me again? Seems like you said the reiatsu didn't tip him off, but in the end it did...



I recall Aizen stated that an experienced captain can detect slight disparities between Kyoka Suigetsu's illusions from the real thing. So I looked for the scans 

- (note: Even if she knew the body was fake, she was unable to tell it was an illusion without Aizen saying so)

-

- but this was more of a guy feeling than anything

From these instances, I imagine the presence Aizen creates in his illusions is near impossible to separate from reality unless you know exactly what you're looking for or have a reason to suspect deception and even then, physical contact with Aizen's reiatsu is necessary. Probably why Yamamoto figured Aizen out once he came into contact with his reiatsu while Unohana needed several days with the autopsy.

None of this is really going to help Whitebeard any however until he's actually come into contact with Aizen and by then Pre-cog would have been irrelevant compared to bare reaction timing.


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## Fujita (Mar 16, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Hmm, the main reason I used Whitebeard and Squardo as an example was because his allies couldn't believe the old man actually got hit (Crocodile in particular) even if it was a surprise attack from a trusted 'son' at melee range. I think that indicates passivity in CoO to some degree otherwise their reactions were highly exaggerated.



Well, if you interpret the scene by assuming that CoO is passive, then Whitebeard only failed there because his reactions were dulled by age 

However, this kind of... shoots down your initial point about CoO _not_ working here 

If it's a question of failure of CoO, I'd justify it the way I did - he was among allies 

If it's not a question of failure of CoO (which is more plausible, given the shock), then it's... not an example of failure of CoO to begin with 



> Guess we can excuse Luffy's 'images' as a baseline ability of CoO since we know it can be improved on.



Way I like to think of it is that precog works through images, while presence/emotion sensing are sort of additional abilities you can get.  



> I recall Aizen stated that an experienced captain can detect slight disparities between Kyoka Suigetsu's illusions from the real thing. So I looked for the scans
> 
> - (note: Even if she knew the body was fake, she was unable to tell it was an illusion without Aizen saying so)
> 
> ...



Fair enough then 

But I think we can agree that this implies that CoO won't help against Aizen specifically, rather than illusions overall?


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## Fujita (Mar 16, 2014)

Oh right, since you dug out the Yama scans, might as well post


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## Byrd (Mar 16, 2014)

Some things about CoO 

- Allows the user to see the strength of others apparently as seen with Ray.. Naturally this gives WB the ability to select whom he needs to take out.. So he would be able to note who is a threat or not

- Pre-cog which is being discussed... it deals with the mind eye.. so the usage of KS probably would only occur if he is in KS, what about before then.. if Aizen has any killing intent which is a factor in this.. wouldn't WB be able to pick it up and discern that Aizen is gonna do something dangerous... couldn't his haki tell him _beforehand_is what I'm asking here 

- concentration is needed in order to keep it up as seen in Enel arc, two of the priest lost control of their Mantra.. but given WB stats he is probably able to concentrate in a scenario like this.  

CoC

- Also pretty much all fodder are defeated with an CoC blast which is scaled with Luffy.

Basically anymore who probably isn't a Captain or Renji and Rukia level


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## Fujita (Mar 16, 2014)

And oh yes

There's this



BabyJesus said:


> Yama is faster anyway scaling from the negacion BEAM OF LIGHT that hisagi dodged.



Square dimension-warping "light" 

Once you grant that the light doesn't behave like real life light, then why ever can you assume that it moves at the speed of light in real life - a conclusion based on it behaving like real life light


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Mar 17, 2014)

Holy shit 
Also
People still can't fathom the whole heat=energy thing


----------



## LineageCold (Mar 17, 2014)

Gura Gura bleach verse  ' but more on topic I heard somebody mention teraton white beard? Teraton as in huge island or small country ? Can somebody be so kind to link me to the calc.
I'm kinda confuse, I read marineford arc many times but never saw anything close to teraton,(let alone gigatons iirc) but if this calc legit , white beard gonna solo the Hst


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 17, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> Gura Gura bleach verse :white beard ' but more on topic I heard somebody mention teraton white beard? Teraton as in huge island or small country ? Can somebody be so kind to link me to the calc.
> I'm kinda confuse, I read marineford arc many times but never saw anything close to teraton,(let alone gigatons iirc) but if this calc legit , white beard gonna solo the Hst



You can't solo the HST with 1.2 teratons,. BM Naruto alone wrecks him


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## Source (Mar 17, 2014)

Although that's hardly enough to solo HST, since Naruto top tiers are higher teraton level (Rinnegan Mads potentially being in the petatons ), while the god tiers are exaton to zettaton level.


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## LineageCold (Mar 17, 2014)

I respect the guy who made this calc,(he put a lot of work into as I eye balled it) but this calc is kinda shaky if you ask me, to many assumptions I guess, (It's to scientific for me to look into) 

& your kidding me right?  , I made a calc myself & I got B & naruto's BD at triple gigaton, but you got teratons?
May I see the calc please

Edit: did you just said *exaton* god tiers? Link that calc as well my good sir


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## Source (Mar 17, 2014)

It apparently is a little shaky. 

As for teraton Nardo:





> your value is x1.537, IIRC from the equations that would mean that the new combined BB energy value is 2.61Tt * 1.537^3 = *9.5 Tt*





> thats 1.58 Teratons per Bijuu (which is scalable to Madara's Susano'o) with 50% Kyuubi being 7.9 teratons (scalable to SM Hashi).



Petaton Mads:



(may or may not be an outlier)


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## shade0180 (Mar 17, 2014)

> but if this calc legit , white beard gonna solo the Hst



Legit or not, any Teraton dc can not solo the HST... They get pulverized by almost any juubi form..... Juubi 2nd form or was that 1st form has a 2XX teraton feat.....


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## LazyWaka (Mar 17, 2014)

Petaton mads is most definitely an outlier.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 17, 2014)

waka pls 



and these newbs being cluless is so endearing


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## Tacocat (Mar 17, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> I respect the guy who made this calc,(he put a lot of work into as I eye balled it) but this calc is kinda shaky if you ask me, to many assumptions I guess, (It's to scientific for me to look into)



How are you gonna assert that it's too shaky when you don't understand it? Unless you were making a pun of it


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## LineageCold (Mar 17, 2014)

You guy's take calc serious huh  . But I see where I went wrong, my scaling's were way off,  it would be creepy to think how much time goes into these calc, I missed so many details  , but as far as it goes the scalings are alright, ( but for that madara *Petaton* calc, it sounds iffy, but I'll check it out later where to off topic


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## Chad (Mar 17, 2014)

Everyone > Oonoki gets petaton durability.


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## LineageCold (Mar 17, 2014)

SuperTacocat said:


> How are you gonna assert that it's too shaky when you don't understand it? Unless you were making a pun of it



Maybe  , but like you said, I really dont understand it fully, to scientific for my head


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 17, 2014)

SCIENCE 


yeah


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## Akatora (Mar 19, 2014)

Been a long time since i've bothered debating this stuff, but against the entire verse... the R&D should have plenty options.

WB gets send into another dimension where he'll die of natural causes eventually.
Alternatively He gets his memory erased and replaced.


yada yada yada, Haki makes immune to everything BS, pointless thread


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## November (Mar 19, 2014)

Didn?t know that Wb can solo Bleach now 

And lol 9 pages.


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## tkpirate (Mar 20, 2014)

Akatora said:


> WB gets send into another dimension where he'll die of natural causes eventually.
> Alternatively He gets his memory erased and replaced.



since when can they do that?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 20, 2014)

^ They probably don't .


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## tkpirate (Mar 20, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> ^ They probably don't .



yeah,i was thinking that,but i don't read bleach,so i thought i should ask.


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## Sablés (Mar 20, 2014)

Tessai can time-stop
Nimaiya can dimensional-bfr.

All possible tactics while the old man is under KS' influence or just hella distracted.


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## Akatora (Mar 20, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> since when can they do that?



Erase & replace memory?
Since like chapter 2...

For larger scale samples take fake Karakura town aswell as when Rukia was taken back to SS.(Only people with spiritpower were able to notice, and due to equalazion stuff people would probably grant WB immunity through this route)

Forceful sleep: Also to the people of Karakura


Other Dimensions?
Since the very first hollow appeared have we seen Shinigami and Hollows move through the realms of ss, living world and HM.
We also have Negacion which moves whatever it target into a seperate dimension. Given the amount of opponents one is bound to hit.



Wb mgiht have a chance in a 1v1, but in a 1v verse he's a gonner.




Ignoring the inconsistent speeds, I'd place fully powered "Buckbeard" above "Whitebeard" due to the insane amount of Hax he should be in position of.


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## Dellinger (Mar 20, 2014)

Hax or not WB still bitchslaps him.


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## Super Chief (Mar 23, 2014)

Old Yamamoto makes WB cry.


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## kaminogan (Mar 24, 2014)

gauntlet ? he stops at bankai yamamoto/final form aizen,

with regen ? he destroys the entire verse, i mean everything,

yamamoto's solar lvl slash should be able to kill him, seeing as magma was able to pass through him, 

aizen can survive his attacks long enough to cut him up, even then white beard would prob go beast mode and turn aizen into a pancake,


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 24, 2014)

kaminogan said:


> gauntlet ? he stops at bankai yamamoto/final form aizen,
> 
> with regen ? he destroys the entire verse, i mean everything,
> 
> ...



How exactly are they going to tank his quake?


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## Iwandesu (Mar 24, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> How exactly are they going to tank his quake?


Speed equalised his explosion should reach him 
Aizen can't kill him though.


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## Piecesis (Mar 24, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Speed equalised his explosion should reach him
> Aizen can't kill him though.



If he destroys all of bleach then yama decides to blow himself up (If he can, because he'd be foreveralone), wouldn't that mean he still solo'd bleach?


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## Tapion (Mar 24, 2014)

Aizen uses his illusions to create an endless possibilities of combos with other characters. 

Aizen/Shinji/Rose fuck him over with illusions. Aizen fucks his CoO, Rose keeps him place with his bankai performances, Shinji Fucks his ability to move, Mayuri Poisons him Removing the ability to move at all. (they're bloodlusted, they'l use it right off the bat )  

after that you could pick how u want white beard to die.


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## Sablés (Mar 24, 2014)

Whitebeard can't beat Aizen

Aizen can create an indefinite number of openings in his defense for others to capitalize on and he can't do squat about it. No OP character bar possibly Aokiji can solo the verse.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 24, 2014)

Kizaru + Sugar combo  .


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 24, 2014)

The wank here is getting pretty bad


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## Iwandesu (Mar 24, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> The wank here is getting pretty bad


Nah, i was worried someone would say "lol aizen is immortal and has ubber unbeatble illusions" 
at least he showed a kind of proper way to beat WB (even if only yamamoto and mugetsu can hurt WB they still hurt and,  who knows) 
Never read bleach so you probably know this more than i.


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## Sablés (Mar 24, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Kizaru + Sugar combo  .



>says no single OP character can solo
>replies with one dubious as hell combo


This fucking section...


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 24, 2014)

lolsugar is fodder


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## Brightsteel (Mar 24, 2014)

Warms my heart seeing a shitty thread of mine reach 8 pages.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 24, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> >says no single OP character can solo
> >replies with one dubious as hell combo
> 
> 
> This fucking section...



Are you fucking serious ? I replied to the " No single OP character can solo " with a combo answer BECAUSE I AGREE WITH the claim, of course .

Edit: And of course I'm not serious about it, I mean, it's Sugar, under equivalation rule she would not be able to transform anybody into toy .


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## Fujita (Mar 24, 2014)

kaminogan said:


> yamamoto's solar lvl slash



No



Sabl?s said:


> No OP character bar possibly Aokiji can solo the verse.



How do you figure that Aokiji, of all people, could do it? 



Mr. Black Leg said:


> it's Sugar, under equivalation rule she would not be able to transform anybody into toy .



what


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## Sablés (Mar 24, 2014)

Fujita said:


> How do you figure that Aokiji, of all people, could do it?



Freezing would bypass Aizen's regeneration.

Though to be fair, I didn't account for the Hogyoku's reality warping at the time. It alters reality and allows the user to adapt to situations accordingly; Small-Country level is within the bounds of NLF set for the Hogyouku. Maybe it could counteract Aokiji's Ice and Whitebeard's quakes that way? Or do we just go with what's shown on-panel?


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## Iwandesu (Mar 24, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Freezing would bypass Aizen's regeneration.
> Though to be fair, I didn't account for the Hogyoku's reality warping at the time. It alters reality and allows the user to adapt to situations accordingly; Small-Country level is within the bounds of NLF set for the Hogyouku. Maybe it could counteract Aokiji's Ice and Whitebeard's quakes that way? Or do we just go with what's shown on-panel?


As he was still regenerating after mugetsu we should at least give him the "can recover from small country level attacks which don't have a big AOE, still, a bunch of gigaton attacks can handily take him down" thing


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## Tapion (Mar 24, 2014)

that goes for the battle dome to not cause a no limit fallacy, Outside of it I think he can regenerate from anything as long as the hog isn't destroyed, damaged or rejects him.


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## Byrd (Mar 24, 2014)

There are a lot of attacks in the OP verse that would fuck Aizen up, I think... too bad they don't have the stats to go toe to toe with him


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## Lurko (Mar 24, 2014)

Boy oh boy what a long thread I can't see him beating Juha once he gets all his powers back.


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## Revan Reborn (Mar 25, 2014)

Juha will be>monster aizen but ichigo will still be on a higher dimension than both.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 25, 2014)

I hope Juha stomps Strawberrys ass


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## Darth Niggatron (Mar 25, 2014)

>Juha blitzes and stomps Ichigo in the first fight.
>Ichigo manages to escape. 
>He meets and kisses the Soul King, thus gaining the love love reiatsu powah.
>Comes back and makes Juha declare his undying lawv for him.
>Spurns Juha's lawv, claiming that Rukia is the lawv of his life.
>Juha commits suicide.
>Ichigo becomes pimpking.
The End.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 25, 2014)

Rukia is flat as a board


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## Darth Niggatron (Mar 25, 2014)

Ichigo just wants to cum aboard.
Get it?


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## Darth Niggatron (Mar 25, 2014)

Now that's a face I haven't seen in a while. 
Why what? Why Juha lawvs him? Why I used 'lawv'? Clarify, m8.


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