# Zabuza/Haku vs Sound 4



## Matty (Nov 21, 2015)

Area: Team 7 vs Zabuza
Knowledge: None
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: None
Distance: 50 Meters

Who takes it?


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## Shanal (Nov 22, 2015)

Sound 4 stomps once they enter the second state, hell, what can Zabuza and Haku do against Tayuya's flutes anyway? Mist doesn't stop the sound at all, once in genjutsu, Sakon, Kidomaru or Jirobu can one-shot them.

Don't see how it's a problem.


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## wooly Eullerex (Nov 22, 2015)

Zabuza could prolly solo in the mist, but...

kidomaru will retreat & essentially become ino in the melee, waiting to die last.

jirobo & tayuya have no defense against water dragon, backed up by
 water clones->water prison. their ver.2 has no relevance in such case.

haku tactically blitzes the twins w/ ice needles & mirrors


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## Ghost (Nov 22, 2015)

Zabuza rapes them hard.


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## Shanal (Nov 22, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Zabuza rapes them hard.


Yeah, same Zabuza who is fodder in term of genjutsu and was easily genned by Kakashi. Mist stops eye gen, however not flute. Tayuya solos them both. Haku is fodder here, he isn't doing much against those who aren't genin.

Zabuza being overrated is so hilarious. He gets genned then killed.



walpurgis Burgoo said:


> jirobo & tayuya have no defense against water dragon, backed up by
> water clones->water prison. their ver.2 has no relevance in such case.
> 
> haku tactically blitzes the twins w/ ice needles & mirrors



Funny you say that since Jirobu tanked a giantass Tobi falling on him before activating Curse state 2. And Tayuya can instantly use her genjutsu to bind both Haku and Zabuza before they do shit.

Sakon slower than Haku, what? Haku's speed feats aren't that high without mirrors (Where he gets advantage of hit and run) and Sakon kept up with Kiba who is a base 4 speed, same as that of Haku, plus boosted via All Four, and then Sakon goes curse state 2 and becomes even faster. Fail to see your point, Sakon destroys Haku in a 1 vs1, mirrors or no mirrors, mirrors aren't that haxxed when your opponent is actually faster than you and the mirrors aren't even that durable, plus Ukon antis most of the vital attacks on Sakon.

Kidomaru isn't doing much here, to be honest, unless he goes long range, but Sakon, Tayuya and Jirobu are enough. Jirobu's single punch can kill both Zabuza and Haku, and they have no defense against Tayuya's genjutsu bind,whether in cs or not cs. Zabuza sets up mist, Haku mirror, Tayuya gens them both, the other two finishes 'em. Sweet and simple.


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## Ghost (Nov 22, 2015)

You're terrible.


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## wooly Eullerex (Nov 22, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Yeah, same Zabuza who is fodder in term of genjutsu and was easily genned by Kakashi. Mist stops eye gen, however not flute. Tayuya solos them both. Haku is fodder here, he isn't doing much against those who aren't genin.
> 
> Zabuza being overrated is so hilarious. He gets genned then killed.



nah, by attacking tayuya her genjutsu moves out of the picture. shika simply lacked the capability to put heavy pressure on her, as he, like herself is a supporting tactician.



> Funny you say that since Jirobu tanked a giantass Tobi falling on him before activating Curse state 2. And Tayuya can instantly use her genjutsu to bind both Haku and Zabuza before they do shit.


 but being half-drowned, then immobilized & decapitated is a different story.



> Sakon slower than Haku, what? Haku's speed feats aren't that high without mirrors (Where he gets advantage of hit and run) and Sakon kept up with Kiba who is a base 4 speed, same as that of Haku, plus boosted via All Four, and then Sakon goes curse state 2 and becomes even faster. Fail to see your point, Sakon destroys Haku in a 1 vs1, mirrors or no mirrors, mirrors aren't that haxxed when your opponent is actually faster than you and the mirrors aren't even that durable, plus Ukon antis most of the vital attacks on Sakon.


 its a good thing he has his mirrors then & can avoid cqc.
anyway,  a tactical blitz relies on jutsu priority & strategy, not speed.



> Kidomaru isn't doing much here, to be honest, unless he goes long range,


 agreed



> but Sakon, Tayuya and Jirobu are enough. Jirobu's single punch can kill both Zabuza and Haku, and they have no defense against Tayuya's genjutsu bind,whether in cs or not cs. Zabuza sets up mist, Haku mirror, Tayuya gens them both, the other two finishes 'em. Sweet and simple.


 any ninja can kill any other in general; doesn't mean its always likely when their combat capabilities are compared.
the sound have no answer 4 high level ninjutsu, bunshinjutsu, aerial mobility & an enchanted sword


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## Shanal (Nov 22, 2015)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> nah, by attacking tayuya her genjutsu moves out of the picture. shika simply lacked the capability to put heavy pressure on her, as he, like herself is a supporting tactician.
> 
> but being half-drowned, then immobilized & decapitated is a different story.
> 
> ...



Knowledge is none, the first thing Zabuza would do is try to set up mist, Haku usually stays behind till he's encouraged. Tayuya's first attack would naturally be genjutsu so her team can sweep it out. Zabuza wouldn't attack Tayuya before gen takes place, and Zabuza is fodder at gen.

*but being half-drowned, then immobilized & decapitated is a different story.*

Talking like Zabuza moves at speed of light, can set up mist, make 40 hand signs (as shown he needed that much to use Dragon, lmfao) instantly proceed to use water clone and cut them in half. Beyond biased scenario. We all know Zabuza sets mist up first which takes a good 10 second, and then Tayuya proceeds to gen and rest of them kill Haku and Zabuza.

*its a good thing he has his mirrors then & can avoid cqc.
anyway, a tactical blitz relies on jutsu priority & strategy, not speed.
*

Tactical blitz = just blitz and kill with needles or mirror, as you kindly suggest in your previous post? Lolno.

*any ninja can kill any other in general; doesn't mean its always likely when their combat capabilities are compared.
the sound have no answer 4 high level ninjutsu, bunshinjutsu, aerial mobility & an enchanted sword
*

HIgh level ninjutsu: The only thing he did in series was use mist and proceed to make 40 hand sign to use a simple Water Dragon which isn't even that destructive.

Bunshinjutsu: Lol, he made one or two clone, going by that logic pre-skip Naruto >>>> Kaguya because he can make like 100. Much bunshin.

Arial mobility & Enhanched sword: Dunno what you mean here, but he gets genned + killed nonetheless.



Ghost said:


> You're terrible.



Better than a troll who just states shit with no back up.


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## Vice (Nov 22, 2015)

Okay, 4 people who together could barely handle a couple of exhausted special jonin vs. a legit elite jonin and a high chunin at worst? I'm going to go with Zabuza solos without Haku even being needed here.

STOP OVERRATING THE SOUND 4 FODDER, BATTLEDOME

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Shanal (Nov 22, 2015)

Vice said:


> Okay, 4 people who together could barely handle a couple of exhausted special jonin vs. a legit elite jonin and a high chunin at worst? I'm going to go with Zabuza solos without Haku even being needed here.
> 
> STOP OVERRATING THE SOUND 4 FODDER, BATTLEDOME



I am not overrating. I am asking for a legit answer to Zabuza not being genned and killed right there. Also, the ones whom S4 fought were Jounins themselves, same rank as Zabuza there.

Stop overhyping Zabuza.


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## Amol (Nov 22, 2015)

Zabuza blitzes and cuts them down before they realize what happened.
Haku can make tea and look 'pretty'.


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## Ghost (Nov 22, 2015)

Shanal said:


> fought were Jounins themselves, same rank as Zabuza there.



They were Special Jounin IIRC, below normal Jounins. Especially someone like Kakashi who was not that much stronger than Zabuza.

Zabuza speed blitzes and one shots all of them.


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## Rocky (Nov 22, 2015)

Wasn't rusty wave Kakashi (who has a 4 in speed btw) raping Zabuza outside of the zero-visibility mist? Zabuza didn't seem all that fast.


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## Vice (Nov 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Wasn't rusty wave Kakashi (who has a 4 in speed btw) raping Zabuza outside of the zero-visibility mist? Zabuza didn't seem all that fast.



Zabuza's a 4 as well. And the only time Kakashi was "raping" Zabuza was after Haku died, this was explained during the War Arc.


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## Ghost (Nov 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Wasn't rusty wave Kakashi (who has a 4 in speed btw) raping Zabuza outside of the zero-visibility mist? Zabuza didn't seem all that fast.



Hm? He definitely pimp slapped Zabuza around after the latter was wounded. Not sure. I'll read the fight. 

Wave arc Kakashi is still miles above the S4.

edit. Zabuza slowed down after Kakashi's Ninken got him.


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## Shanal (Nov 23, 2015)

Ghost said:


> They were Special Jounin IIRC, below normal Jounins. Especially someone like Kakashi who was not that much stronger than Zabuza.
> 
> Zabuza speed blitzes and one shots all of them.



They were called Special Jounin by databooks granted. However Zabuza blitzes? Lolwut? Zabuza has 4 rated speed, Sakon and Kidomaru have 3, that is w/o cs, we know cs boosts it anyway. Zabuza's first attack is always mist no matter what happens and Haku doesn't just advance before order is given (Fun part is, Haku couldn't even bltiz and kill Sasuke, who couldn't do legit damage to Sakon AFTER getting Lee-tier speed).

Zabuza isn't blitzing anyway, he sets up mist, and Tayuya uses genjutsu on both him and Haku, then they die. What feat they have against genjutsu? Zabuza was foddered by Kakashi in terms of gen. Haku's gen is more than Zabuza data-book wise. Zabuza isn't blitzing anyone either.

Kakashi is not much stronger than Zabuza? Lolwut? Kakashi once serious completely destroyed Zabuza with his sharingan during first fight (w/o any intel), in second one Kakashi only had trouble due to zero visibility mist, which isn't stopping Tayuya from genning Zabuza. Zabuza set up mist to prevent being genned and have Kakashi copy him, he even admitted that.

You're way too much terrible that you keep spouting false shit, and yet you call me terrible? Zabuza, who has same base speed as Haku, isn't blitzing and killing anyone considering Sasuke could block Haku in time too. Also, *"Zabuza slowed down after Kakashi's Ninken got him."* What? No, when Zabuza was edo'd Kakashi clearly stated that after Haku died, Zabuza was frustrated that he couldn't fight properly, has nothing to do with Ninken, just wanted to let you know because that is another completely false statement you made.

At the end of the day, genjutsu + instant kill happens, no matter how you look at it.



Amol said:


> Zabuza blitzes and cuts them down before they realize what happened.
> Haku can make tea and look 'pretty'.



Lol @ This guy.


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## Vice (Nov 23, 2015)

Shanal said:


> I ain't wanking them. I am demanding legit feat and canon fact in favor for Zabuza to counter what I just stated above. You have none. Zabuza blitzes none since his speed is same as Haku, who was interrupted by Sasuke.



You do realize that Haku has terrible taijutsu right? You also realize that the 4 in speed is him in the ice mirrors that Sasuke wasn't able to keep up with, right? You also realize Haku was intentionally jobbing in that fight, right? You do realize Haku was able to instantly step in front of Kakashi's attack to defend Zabuza not once but twice, right?



> Zabuza has no defense against genjutsu



This is false. Zabuza is average at genjutsu. He's also an ANBU jonin who more than likely knows basic genjutsu defense, the same basic genjutsu defense that every other jonin has shown knowledge of.



> he was fodderized by Kakashi via a gen.



A genjutsu from the Sharingan. Which sound 4 member has the Sharingan again?



> The intel is none, and pretty much Sakon can enter his body and fuck him up in and out



Yeah, that was such a game breaker against Kimimaro, right?



> (that wouldn't be needed, since Tayuya would be genning and they'd be killing)



Just like all the people they killed in the manga, right?

Here, here's the whole list:








> Stop talking bullshit to me w/o any proper fact to talk about.



There is no proper facts to talk about. Other than a couple of exhausted special jonin, who survived these vicious killers by the way, the sound 4 are in forever jobber status. Jobber to chunin, by the way.



> You can go all and all about how they were beaten by a 100x more powerful Chouji and a surprise attack from Neji after being reked,



And Kankuro, Temari and Kimimaro were 100x more powerful too then?



> but I don't care,



Clearly.



> Zabuza is no big deal for them if we go by canon facts



To what? God-tier characters? Zabuza is an elite jonin, thus a big deal to chunin-jobbing sound 4 fodder.



> besides, Zabuza couldn't do jackshit to Kakashi unless there was 0 visibility mist, and we all know how much Kakashi relies on sharingan.



Zabuza was doing just fine before Haku died, this was stated as fact by Kakashi himself. Kakashi also noted that any counter he had to try to save Naruto and Sasuke from Haku would be met with an equal counter from Zabuza. Zabuza only started jobbing once his heart wasn't in it anymore, again as stated from Kakashi himself.

At either rate, jobbing to Kakashi is infinitely different than jobbing to nothing chunin fodder.


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## Shanal (Nov 23, 2015)

Vice said:


> You do realize that Haku has terrible taijutsu right? You also realize that the 4 in speed is him in the ice mirrors that Sasuke wasn't able to keep up with, right? You also realize Haku was intentionally jobbing in that fight, right? You do realize Haku was able to instantly step in front of Kakashi's attack to defend Zabuza not once but twice, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Terrible Taijutsu, yes I do realize that, and that doesn't matter because when Haku tried to blitz, Sasuke was still able to react to and block him initial attack. Though I do agree he didn't beat him in speed, he did react to it, and that alone proves Zabuza isn't blitzing anyone here.

Zabuza has genjutsu? lolwut? Zabuza's rated a 2.5 in genjutsu while Kakashi with 4 managed to fodderize him with a simple Gen. Tayuya is rated 5. Average Jounin aren't breaking Tayuya's gen, she wasn't one of Orochimaru's elites for jackshit. Zabuza's genjutsu feats in manga, added with his crap stats, would get stomped by Tayuya;s flutes.

Kimmimaro against S5 wasn't sick, and there's no proof that he didn't go curse state 2 on them. He could've easily just blitzed and ended Sakon right there, his speed is rated a whooping 4.5 and his taijutsu skills and strength is enormous. Hell, Kimmimaro is overall rated better than Zabuza in terms of stats given how they fight.


*There is no proper facts to talk about. Other than a couple of exhausted special jonin, who survived these vicious killers by the way, the sound 4 are in forever jobber status. Jobber to chunin, by the way.
*

If you refuse to give me any proper feat/fact canon material about Zabuza countering a simple Genjutsu + slaughter from S4, and just continue talking about how S4 barely defeated Special Jounins, I am going to ignore you thinking you're a troll. Zabuza got ass raped by Kakashi, untill he used zero visibility mist, which is no problem to Sound 4, unlike Kakashi who was HEAVILY crippled. Also, it's not that they barely managed to beat Special Jounins.

One: They said they were exhausted only because they entered Curse State 2nd.
Two: I just looked up, they called them Jounins, not special Jounins, so yeah, there goes your claim.

*To what? God-tier characters? Zabuza is an elite jonin, thus a big deal to chunin-jobbing sound 4 fodder.*

Zabuza is a fodder who in terms of feats, facts, databook and canon material can't do jack to Sound Four. Elite Jounin my ass, he could barely do jack to Kakashi w/o crippling his sharingan completely. Sharinganless Kakashi managed to destroy Zabuza via dog stun + chidori, which would be a success if it wasn't for Haku being a clingy one.


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## Vice (Nov 23, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Terrible Taijutsu, yes I do realize that, and that doesn't matter because when Haku tried to blitz, Sasuke was still able to react to and block him initial attack.



Then Haku went into the ice mirrors and owned. 4 in speed.



> Though I do agree he didn't beat him in speed, he did react to it, and that alone proves Zabuza isn't blitzing anyone here.



That's funny considering he was able to clone feint and outmaneuver Kakashi. 



> Zabuza has genjutsu? lolwut?



Yes. He has a 2.5 in genjutsu, which means he's capable of using it.



> Zabuza's rated a 2.5 in genjutsu while Kakashi with 4 managed to fodderize him with a simple Gen.



Simple genjutsu from the Sharingan. Again I ask which sound 4 member has the Sharingan?



> Tayuya is rated 5. Average Jounin aren't breaking Tayuya's gen, she wasn't one of Orochimaru's elites for jackshit. Zabuza's genjutsu feats in manga, added with his crap stats, would get stomped by Tayuya;s flutes.



That's funny, Shikamaru broke it and he's not a jonin.



> Kimmimaro against S5 wasn't sick, and there's no proof that he didn't go curse state 2 on them. He could've easily just blitzed and ended Sakon right there, his speed is rated a whooping 4.5 and his taijutsu skills and strength is enormous.



I assume you have proof of him needing CS2 to have to deal with these losers?

His speed is a 4.5 and his taijutsu is a 5, Zabuza's a 4 and a 4.5, easily comparable. 



> Hell, Kimmimaro is overall rated better than Zabuza in terms of stats given how they fight.



No, their stats are practically even. Both of which are above the sound 4.




> If you refuse to give me any proper feat/fact



Okay, here's their feats. Needed CS2 to beat an exhausted pair of special jonin 4 on 2 without managing to kill them and then lost to chunin. Impressive



> canon material about Zabuza countering a simple Genjutsu + slaughter from S4



There is no canon material that would support the sound 4 slaughtering Zabuza since they lost. To chunin. 



> and just continue talking about how S4 barely defeated Special Jounins,



Because that's all the accomplishments they have. 



> I am going to ignore you thinking you're a troll.



Okay. 



> Zabuza got ass raped by Kakashi untill he used zero visibility mist,



No, he had Kakashi trapped until Kakashi whipped out the Sharingan.



> which is no problem to Sound 4, unlike Kakashi who was HEAVILY crippled.



It's a problem for Kakashi and the Alliance but no problem for this fodder squad? Okay buddy.



> Also, it's not that they barely managed to beat Special Jounins.



Yeah, they also lost. To chunin.



> One: They said they were exhausted only because they entered Curse State 2nd.



Except the jonin were exhausted coming off a mission, not the sound 4.



> Two: I just looked up, they called them Jounins, not special Jounins, so yeah, there goes your claim.



Raidō Namiashi (並足ライドウ, Namiashi Raidō) is a *tokubetsu jōnin* of Konohagakure who serves as an elite bodyguard to the Hokage. 

Genma Shiranui (不知火ゲンマ, Shiranui Genma) is a *tokubetsu jōnin* of Konohagakure. 




> Zabuza is a fodder



To god-tier character and people who are capable of DBZ-lite explosions. Not the sound 4 fodder squad.



> who in terms of feats, facts, databook and canon material can't do jack to Sound Four.



Where's your proof? Sound 4 could barely beat exhausted special jonin, lost to Kimimaro 4 on 1 and lost to part 1 chunin. This isn't shit I'm just making up, these are facts.



> Elite Jounin my ass, he could barely do jack to Kakashi w/o crippling his sharingan completely.



Except trap him and negate most any counter Kakashi could come up with. Both of which is enough to serve the sound 4 fodder their asses.



> Sharinganless Kakashi managed to destroy Zabuza via dog stun + chidori, which would be a success if it wasn't for Haku being a clingy one.



Even taking this into account, how does Kakashi accomplishing this mean anything to the sound 4?


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## Vice (Nov 23, 2015)

Also, I'm not going back and forth with you over this anymore. This is retarded.


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## Shanal (Nov 23, 2015)

Vice said:


> Then Haku went into the ice mirrors and owned. 4 in speed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ice mirror allows him to confuse Sasuke via like 30 reflections in mirror, it allows him to hit and instantly hide in the mirrors, it allows him to just jump around and throw needles from god knows where. Yeah, that clearly is comparable to his base. At the end of the day, Sasuke could react to Haku's initial blitz, that is a fact. And Sakon and Kidomaru are even considerably faster via CS2.

Zabuza used mist to create a water clone, while hiding himself, had Kakashi attack the clone, come out and beat an off-guard Kakashi in taijutsu. That isn't his speed, it's taijutsu. Zabuza still isn't blitzing anyone here.

He has 2.5 in genjutsu, which just tells how impressive he is at it, which basically means his mastery over it and his ability to repel genjutus, and nothing suggests he can use one himself. That's like saying a person has wind nature chakra, he must be able to use wind jutsu, lol. Anyway, Zabuza's genjutsu is 2.5, he was fodderized by a base 4 Kakashi, and Tayuya gens him in and out and beats him up. Period.

Shikamaru broke it via intel and preparing in advance to have his shadow break his finger before Tayuya can even use Genjutsu. He didn't really break it, he simply prepared in advance via intel and managed to counter it just as it was used. Here they have no knowledge. Oh, and by the way, Shikamaru has higher rating than Zabuza in terms of genjutsu, also the one he broke (Sorry, I mean managed to prepare in advance to break), was not even a CS2 level Genjutsu. Your facts have so many flaws that it hurts, really.

Yeah, and tell me what feats Kakashi has with his genjutsu? Sharingan, cool. So he must be much, much better at Genjutsu than anyone who doesn't have sharingan out there? He must destroy every non-sharingan user out there man, Kakashi is overpowered.

Either way, Zabuza is rated a 2.5, never broke a single gen in his life, and pretty much sucks against it. Tayuya gens him, he has neither stats nor feats to break her gen. That's the point.

Zabuza's speed is a tier below Kimmimaro, and his taijutsu is half a tier below Kimmi. And that is base stats. You just claimed that Kimmimaro destroyed S4 in base, I demand proof. If not, then stop comparing Kimmi vs them to Zabuza vs them.

*Okay, here's their feats. Needed CS2 to beat an exhausted pair of special jonin 4 on 2 without managing to kill them and then lost to chunin. Impressive*

Zabuza's feats: Have none in genjutsu, never managed to beat Kakashi in speed and only managed to outtai him while off guard, got completely destroyed in and out post-prison. Got destroyed by a sharingan-less Kakashi with moderate difficulty, got completely shit on by Kakashi after dogs. Zabuza has been a total fodder, period, he never could keep up with Kakashi at all, the only good feat he had was that of taijutsu. And you still haven't told me how Zabuza would anti gen.

*There is no canon material that would support the sound 4 slaughtering Zabuza since they lost. To chunin.
*

There is. Tayuya's 5 gen and Zabuza's 2.5 And the fact that none of them lost to chuunins, Chouji was 100x stronger than your average Chuunin via hax pills, and Neji was destroyed in and out till he managed to catch Kido off guard, and by the way, Hiashi claimed that Neji was as good as main branch elites during his fight with Naruto, which puts him considerably higher than chuunin-tier. You are not giving me proof or feats, you're giving me retarded crap. I am slowly coming to a conclusion that you're a troll with half-assed knowledge and no legit proof. Kaguya lost to a genin Naruto, she is <<<<<<<<< Zabuza. Itachi is stated to be a Jounin-tier by Kishimoto at end of manga, thus Kakashi w/o sharingan who was HOkage must completely destroy Itachi. Ha, friggin' biasness is real.

*
To god-tier character and people who are capable of DBZ-lite explosions. Not the sound 4 fodder squad.
*

Yes, he is fodder to S4 since he has no feats or canon material suggesting he can do shit against them. He didn't even manage to do shit against Kakashi w/o sharingan in 0 visibility mist.

If you post one more thing which doesn't counters any of my statements regarding how Zabuza could beat them feat-wise or stats-wise or ever manage to counter Tayuya's genjutsu and just keep telling me how they lost to chuunins (which they didn't), I shall neglect and ignore you as a troll, not wasting my time on you anymore, you're so terrible it hurts. Also, just to note, I do think Jirobu and Kidomaru, who you kindly suggest lost to chuunins, are non-factor in this battle. Tayuya and Sakon solos. Gen + just kill them, good game. If you're not gonna counter my argument about how Zabuza or Haku can manage to break Tayuya;s genjutsu, don't bother with a reply.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 23, 2015)

Sound 4 are not Chunin level they are Jonin level based in their showings and hype from Shikamaru. Neji became a Jonin in timeskip so if he was a viable Jonin candidate that makes Kidomaru jonin. Naruto defeated Kabuto (an Elite Jonin) yet how would he have fared against one of the Sound 4.

Out of Zabuza and Haku
- which one of them is *countering* Tayuya's Demon Flute *Genjutsu*?
- which one of them has an attack that Sakon & Ukon's Kuchiyose: Rashoumon can't block?
- which one of them is *dodging Kidoumaru's* Demon Spider *Arrow*?
- which one of them is still alive after Jirobo has sucked them dry like leaves in a desert using his Chakra Absorption Technique?

Yeah exactly.

*How can the Sound 4 be Chunin level. *T*hey were Orochimaru's bodyguards.* Orochimaru is practically a Kage (Hidden Sound Village). Y*ou dont choose Chunin to guard a Kage, you choose Jonin to do it. **Shikamaru said they were Jonin and if the Sasuke Retrieval Team beat them that just makes them stronger than we thought not the Sound 4 weaker. *Neji and Shikamaru became Jonin themselves soon after this and Naruto has been Kage level since birth due to being a Jinchuriki. He beat Kabuto, who was an equal to Part 1 Kakashi, an Elite Jonin. Kankuro and Temari were needed to take care of Tayuya and Sakon. They finished a half-complete job and are probably Jonin themselves. Temari negdiffed Tenten who was viable to become Chunin if she was in the Chunin exams. Rank means nothing. Naruto was a Genin when he outsped Kumogakure's Raikage. Orochimaru's official Konoha rank is Jonin yet he defeated the Kage, Sandaime Hokage: Hiruzen Sarutobi. Sasuke never became a Chunin yet almost killed the Raikage. Deidara is a Jonin but beat Kazekage. In fact, Sasori and Orochimaur have beaten Kazekages even stronger than that and they were ranked as Jonin too. So if Sound 4 got beaten by Genin-Chunin ranked ninja it just means they should really be ranked Jonin because lets be real. Shizune, Izumo and Kotestu are all Jonin yet anyone from the Sasuke retrieval team can wipe the floor with them. Sakura in Part 2 is Chunin yet is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shizune, a Jonin, like i said before. What people dont understand is that rank doesnt = strength. Naruto is a Genin yet has beaten so many Jonin and Kages. People's standards are too high. They think the power requirement for each rank is higher than what it actually is. *Any of the Sound 4 can individually mop the floor with Izumo, Kotestu, Aoba, Shizune etc and these were all solid Jonin.* _One of them maybe could even take Anko, who was one of the stronger Jonin and Tayuya or Kidomaru would beat Kurenai (an Elite Jonin) with their eyes closed and their hands tied behind their backs lets be real. Sakon could even beat Asuma if he was really really lucky. If the sun was shining that day, Kidomaru or Tayuya could beat Base Gai who was considered an elite jonin._

Sound 4 are _easily_ Jonin level, especially if Kimimaro was suggested to be Kage level.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 23, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Ice mirror allows him to confuse Sasuke via like 30 reflections in mirror, it allows him to hit and instantly hide in the mirrors, it allows him to just jump around and throw needles from god knows where. Yeah, that clearly is comparable to his base. At the end of the day, Sasuke could react to Haku's initial blitz, that is a fact. And Sakon and Kidomaru are even considerably faster via CS2.





> Either way, Zabuza is rated a 2.5, never broke a single gen in his life, and pretty much sucks against it. Tayuya gens him, he has neither stats nor feats to break her gen. That's the point.





> There is. Tayuya's 5 gen and Zabuza's 2.5 And the fact that none of them lost to chuunins, Chouji was 100x stronger than your average Chuunin via hax pills, and Neji was destroyed in and out till he managed to catch Kido off guard, and by the way, Hiashi claimed that Neji was as good as main branch elites during his fight with Naruto, which puts him considerably higher than chuunin-tier. You are not giving me proof or feats, you're giving me retarded crap. I am slowly coming to a conclusion that you're a troll with half-assed knowledge and no legit proof. Kaguya lost to a genin Naruto, she is <<<<<<<<< Zabuza. Itachi is stated to be a Jounin-tier by Kishimoto at end of manga, thus Kakashi w/o sharingan who was HOkage must completely destroy Itachi. Ha, friggin' biasness is real.





> Yes, he is fodder to S4 since he has no feats or canon material suggesting he can do shit against them. He didn't even manage to do shit against Kakashi w/o sharingan in 0 visibility mist.



Exactly Shanal, exactly.


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## Shanal (Nov 23, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> - which one of them is still alive after Jirobo has sucked them dry like leaves in a desert using his Chakra Absorption Technique


That too, I know right, what destruction ability Zabuza has even shown out of water to be able to scratch Jirobu's dome?

The Zabuza wank here is so retarded it hurts.



Vice said:


> Also, I'm not going back and forth with you over this anymore. This is retarded.



Yeah, it is, about time you realize how retarded your argument was.


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## Ghost (Nov 23, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Sound 4 are not Chunin level they are Jonin level based in their showings and hype from Shikamaru.


So you're telling me that four Jounins would barely beat two tired Special Jounins? Alright then. 


> Neji became a Jonin in timeskip so if he was a viable Jonin candidate that makes Kidomaru jonin.


You do realize that Neji actually trained during the time skip? Or am I missing something here? Was Neji promoted to Jounin straight after his wounds against Kidomaru healed. I really doubt that.


> Naruto defeated Kabuto (an Elite Jonin) .



Had it been Naruto vs Kabuto 1 v 1 from the start Naruto would've died. Sannin arc Naruto is also weaker than SRA Naruto. 


> yet how would he have fared against one of the Sound 4.



He would've destroyed any of them with Kurama's chakra.



> Out of Zabuza and Haku
> - which one of them is *countering* Tayuya's Demon Flute *Genjutsu*?


Zabuza by speed blitzing and one shotting Tayuya.



> - which one of them has an attack that Sakon & Ukon's Kuchiyose: Rashoumon can't block?



 This "fight" will take in close range. Rashomon is not doing anything here.


> - which one of them is *dodging Kidoumaru's* Demon Spider *Arrow*?


Neither. Kidomaru will be dead long before that comes into play.



> - which one of them is still alive after Jirobo has sucked them dry like leaves in a desert using his Chakra Absorption Technique?


Implying Jirobo doesn't die in the first 10 seconds.


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## Shanal (Nov 23, 2015)

Ghost said:


> So you're telling me that four Jounins would barely beat two tired Special Jounins? Alright then.



Actually, no, the two Special Jounins stated that if Shizune (who is a jounin) and the other guy went after S4, they'd get destroyed. S4 themselves never said a single word about having trouble against two Special Jounins, and were just exhausted because they entered CS2. Also, a genin Naruto rekted Kaguya. A chuunin Sakura is stronger than Shizune. A Chuunin Lee is stronger than Jounin Neji. A genin Gaara would rek 90% of chuunins out there and the fact that Itachi is stated to be Jounin-level alone proves that ranks don't mean much.




> Zabuza by speed blitzing and one shotting Tayuya.



Zabuza is rated 4 in terms of speed, same as Haku. Tayuya is 3. Haku's initial blitz was stopped by Sasuke, who was also 3, without sharingan. Zabuza isn't blitzing anyone here, and since intel is none, he'd go for mist beforehand like he always does. Also, distance is 50 meters, Zabuza can't blitz anyone from that far away, however he can be genned.

Anyway, at the end of the day, you like the rest continued to wank Zabuza saying he kills them in 10 seconds without any canon fact or stats. Zabuza has no counter for genjutsu ,was fodderized by Kakashi's gen, is rated 2.5 in genjutsu, and would get genned anyway then destroyed by the rest of them. Kidomaru and Jirobu are non-factor, you only need Tayuya's genjutsu and Sakon killing them in and out. Also, the 3 speed I said was base, not boosted via Cs2, and also that Ukon can enter Zabuza's body and rek him in and out. 

Honestly, the wank is so retarded and biased it hurts. Either way, Zabuza dies.


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## Kai (Nov 23, 2015)

Shanal said:


> S4 themselves never said a single word about having trouble against two Special Jounins, and were just exhausted because they entered CS2.


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## Shanal (Nov 23, 2015)

Was waiting for someone to post that. This is Kidomaru's response to they had to use CS2 to deal with them, there's nothing here which suggests that they didn't destroy them in and out after entering second state, the Sp. Jounins who were down clearly stated that if Shizune (who was a Jounin, not special) and the other guy went after them, they'd get destroyed implies how hard they lost. Also, S4 displayed no visible injuries at all, none. So the entire argument of them having trouble against Sp.Jounins is pointless.

Also, I would like to say that while Sp.Jounins are generally weaker than Jounins, remember that the rank itself is not inferior, it just means they are Jounins specialized in something/rank, for example, interrogation, or in Genma's case, being Hokage's *elite body guard, as stated in the same databook page which labelled them as Special Jounin.*

Either way, Zabuza still dies.


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## Matty (Nov 23, 2015)

Dude, Jirobo is far from Jonin. The only one I would consider Jonin level is Kidomaru and maybe Sakon/Ukon. Tayuya has good genjutsu but Shikamaru broke it, it's hardly some broken ability.


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## Shanal (Nov 23, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Dude, Jirobo is far from Jonin. The only one I would consider Jonin level is Kidomaru and maybe Sakon/Ukon. Tayuya has good genjutsu but Shikamaru broke it, it's hardly some broken ability.



Jirobu is non-factor here, he only has strength. Anyway, Shikamaru never broke Tayuya's genjutsu, he prepared in advance due to intel and had his shadow break his finger and tricked Tayuya into thinking he was genned all the time. It is a broken ability which Zabuza cannot break in the given scenario.


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## Matty (Nov 23, 2015)

I would hardly call Tayuya's jutsu broken...


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## Shanal (Nov 23, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I would hardly call Tayuya's jutsu broken...



She has a base 5 genjutsu stat, which is further boosted in CS1-2 state. Shikamaru never broke Tayuya's genjutsu via releasing it, but prepared in advance. While it's not really broken for shippuden high-tiers, it is broken for Zabuza who has same base speed as Haku and has no defense against Genjutsu, and plus has a 50 meter distance b/w him and S4 with no intel. Zabuza, with no gen feats, 2.5 stat dies right there. It's even worse for Haku, to be honest.


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## Matty (Nov 23, 2015)

So essentially she has the most powerful genjutsu besides Itachi in pt 1?  I have a hard time believing Zabuza and Haku who are both above each individual member of the sound 4 would lose solely because of Tayuya soloing


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> So essentially she has the most powerful genjutsu besides Itachi in pt 1?  I have a hard time believing Zabuza and Haku who are both above each individual member of the sound 4 would lose solely because of Tayuya soloing



Itachi base genjutsu was 5, which is equal to Tayuya in terms of stats, but since 5 is max in stats, we can conclude the rest via feats. Also, Itachi has access to MS and Sharingan, which boosts his genjutsu obviously more than CS2.

You can have hard time believing that, but Zabuza is a fodder with 2.5 gen stat, who was stomped by Kakash idue to gen and was so scared by it that he went on using zero visibility mist to prevent it. Zabuza's canon stats state he sucks at gen, his feats state he sucks at gen, either accept it or stop debatin' lol. Zabuza is getting stomped here, I don't care how strong he is, neither he or Haku has any defense against Flute genjutsu + just murder them, SPECIALLY considering the fact that intel is zero.

And don't bring in Itachi here, we're talking about Zabuza, no off-topic hey.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

If we are being serious Haku kills all of them before they can break their seals, including zabuza.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> If we are being serious Haku kills all of them before they can break their seals, including zabuza.



Yeah, sure, with a base speed of 4 and speed feats which were interrupted by Sasuke (Granted he only one due to higher, much higher taijutsu skills but Haku's overall initial blitz was still interrupted by him.)

Mirrors are so overrated it hurts, they take time to set up and only cover a small radius, Tayuya still gens them and kills them nonetheless due to 50m distance and no intel.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Yeah, sure, with a base speed of 4 and speed feats which were interrupted by Sasuke (Granted he only one due to higher, much higher taijutsu skills but Haku's overall initial blitz was still interrupted by him.)
> 
> Mirrors are so overrated it hurts, they take time to set up and only cover a small radius, Tayuya still gens them and kills them nonetheless due to 50m distance and no intel.



Tayuya does not open with genjutsu, and if she did I am not sure he can even hear when he is in those mirrors. And sasuke did not interrupt the ability when Haku started. Sasuke interrupted it after several minutes of chakra depletion, during that time Haku would have killed them all if that was his intention, again Including Zabuza.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Tayuya does not open with genjutsu, and if she did I am not sure he can even hear when he is in those mirrors. And sasuke did not interrupt the ability when Haku started. Sasuke interrupted it after several minutes of chakra depletion, during that time Haku would have killed them all if that was his intention, again Including Zabuza.



She does, that's her fighting style. And what? By what logical reasoning you came to the conclusion that mirrors apparently block her sense of hearing?, besides, mirrors take time to be set up, given the 50 meters distance, Tayuya easily fodderizes them with genjutsu.

Not really, Haku only managed to blitz Sasuke in mirrors solely because of the fact that he could hit and run and Sasuke was confused via reflection. When Haku initially attacked Sasuke (before mirror), he was clearly able to block him before he proceeded to use his needle jutsu, Haku's base speed is rated 4, same as Kiba who fought Sakon, if you think Sakon/Tayuya/Kidomaru, who are all same speed can't react to Haku, then Kiba would've destroyed Sakon in and out.

Including Zabuza? Do you think mirror cover a radius of kilometers or something? They have a small 3-4 meter radius lol.


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## Sorin (Nov 24, 2015)

created the world 
created the world 

Sound 4? They would die from dehydration from shitting so much when they see Zabuza's killing intent.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

Shanal said:


> She does, that's her fighting style. And what? By what logical reasoning you came to the conclusion that mirrors apparently block her sense of hearing?, besides, mirrors take time to be set up, given the 50 meters distance, Tayuya easily fodderizes them with genjutsu.
> 
> Not really, Haku only managed to blitz Sasuke in mirrors solely because of the fact that he could hit and run and Sasuke was confused via reflection. When Haku initially attacked Sasuke (before mirror), he was clearly able to block him before he proceeded to use his needle jutsu, Haku's base speed is rated 4, same as Kiba who fought Sakon, if you think Sakon/Tayuya/Kidomaru, who are all same speed can't react to Haku, then Kiba would've destroyed Sakon in and out.
> 
> Including Zabuza? Do you think mirror cover a radius of kilometers or something? They have a small 3-4 meter radius lol.



Why do you keep talking about base speed when we all know that isn't relevant to haku? They literally beat the point to death, when haku is using the mirrors he is at or near light speed. And slows down as he loses chakra. Sasuke wasn't confused, he was unable to FOLLOW haku. Haku slowed down as he lost chakra. And Zabuza admitted repeatedly that Haku was more skilled and could kill him if he wanted.

Haku is a HE BTW. That is really not good for your argument. And the reason why you wouldn't be able to hear is because those ice mirrors are THINNER then haku, which means he is entering some weird pocket dimension. And also, we don't know how well sound channels through ice.

Of them though, it all would come down to who hit first, Tayuya or Haku. Minus that Genjutsu Haku guarantees a sweep in this fight, even if zabuza was on the other side.

People really do not give Haku enough credit at all. I have said it before and I will say it again, if Haku had lived he would have been Itachi level at least. I am not even speculating on new techniques or additional powers. Just getting faster and better at the ones he already had. They don't realize that Haku's Kekkei Genkei was similar to Obitos. Nowhere at any other point in naruto can characters alter their body dimensions like that, except with expansion jutsu. And it's clear the ice mirrors is not a body modification technique. So that means Haku has to have his own dimension, similar to Obitos.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Why do you keep talking about base speed when we all know that isn't relevant to haku? They literally beat the point to death, when haku is using the mirrors he is at or near light speed. And slows down as he loses chakra. Sasuke wasn't confused, he was unable to FOLLOW haku. Haku slowed down as he lost chakra. And Zabuza admitted repeatedly that Haku was more skilled and could kill him if he wanted.
> 
> Haku is a HE BTW. That is really not good for your argument. And the reason why you wouldn't be able to hear is because those ice mirrors are THINNER then haku, which means he is entering some weird pocket dimension. And also, we don't know how well sound channels through ice.
> 
> ...



Near light speed? Where did you get that off? He doesn't teleport between the mirrors via light. You really need to reread Naruto. Mirror only allows him to confuse his opponents via the reflection and pretty much just hits them and runs back into the mirror. I really can't believe there's still someone who thinks Haku ACTUALLY moves at light speed in mirrors, something which not only genin Sasuke SAW but also REACTED to and DODGED, man, you're way to dull with this conversation, you need to recheck your friggin' facts and learn what mirrors even do.

Zabuza was hyping Haku. Haku himself admitted that he can't land hits on Sasuke w/ sharingan on, and yes, since he thought that he did mean that for real, thus Haku in mirrors couldn't beat Sasuke without high difficulty, you really believe Haku stood a single chance against someone like Kakashi. Feats, facts, canon databook stats >>>>>>>> Zabuza's hype words.

First of all, I do know he's a he, but I tend to call him that... LOOK AT HIM. Also you call my argument bad when you claim Haku moves at light speed w/o any legit feat or proof? So, post-skip Sasuke moves >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Light speed? Much logic. Sasuke dodged Haku, he must be able to react to light speed, no? Mirrors don't work like that. Also, on a side note, do you not know the fact that sound travels faster in denser solid mediums? While I do agree that due to the weird ass property of ice, the sound is slowed down compared to water, but is not by much, and even then it is MUCH FASTER than in air. Hell, if Haku's in Ice, she'd be genned even sooner.

Yes, people don't give Haku credit because he's a fodder who sucks. Honestly, he has Ice mirrors which can't keep up with many of the characters by Sasuke rescue arc. Ice mirrors take charge time and you're keep forgetting that OP said that the distance is 50 meters, and the knowledge is none and mindset is IC, Haku usually stays behind if its IC and Zabuza sets up mist, Tayuya's first attack is genjutsu because that's what she does, and she's a perfect starter, Zabuza and Haku would get genned before they know it due to distance and knowledge advantage here.and thus, they die.

Haku would be Itachi level? What are you? Some fanboy? Haku doesn't move at light speed, and if he does, then Sasuke is probably much faster than light, and thus Itachi is even faster. Secondly, Haku's taijutsu, genjutsu and basic strength are rated 1, which was evident when Sasuke fodderized and destroyed Haku in a close ranged taijutsu match, much to his surprise. Haku can't beat Kiba from rescue arc, hell, just go Fang over Fang and fuck around mirrors, the mirrors aren't even that durable, they completely shattered from Haku banging into them after receiving a punch, which isn't that big of a feat, the best they tanked was a weak katon jutsu. Lee, Kiba, Neji all can destroy Haku during Sasuke retrieval arc.. People need to stop wanking Haku for nothing.

Speed: Average, same as Lee w/o weights and Kiba during Sasuke retrieval arc according to databooks.

Taijutsu, Genjutsu, Strength, stamina: Garbage, rated around 1-2 in databooks and was evident when Sasuke destroyed him a close combat, by neither feats or stats he is good at any of these.

Ninjutsu: Average, 3.5, however the only jutsu he has shown is needles and Ice mirrors, which, by the way, aren't really as strong as people think. I am still laughing at your "Light speed" comment.

Haku is a mid-high chuunin tier character, in terms of feats and canon stats/facts, get real. Surely he is fast, I will never deny that, but saying he moves at light speed is horribly wrong and hilarious.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

Well sure. Haku definitely doesn't move that fast so long as you ignore them explicitly stating it. It's also good to know you have a sense of humor about your own lack of knowledge while acting superior.

And how are you not understanding that Sasuke saw and reacted after Haku had slowed down a TON from losing chakra?

Also. You do realize Haku stopped developing because he was dead right? If we took his abilities, and ice barrier durabilities, and speed when using that technique and scaled JUST THAT STUFF not including any NEW ABILITIES he would learn. Kiba dies instantly.

Also. Please refer here for if Haku would reach Itach level or not. Most people agree with me. 

That part of the conversation doesn't pick up until further into the thread.

And also completely ignored the has his own dimension part. Which is kind of a big deal.

Also. Haku is a little kid. Using a full blown adult assassination jutsu that everyone agrees is draining to maintain. Comparing how well he can use it, and how durable the mirrors as as a fucking kid to adults is retarded. Yes sasuke could break a mirror, after haku was almost entirely out of chakra.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Well sure. Haku definitely doesn't move that fast so long as you ignore them explicitly stating it.
> 
> And how are you not understanding that Sasuke saw and reacted after Haku had slowed down a TON from losing chakra?
> 
> Also. You do realize Haku stopped developing because he was dead right? If we took his abilities, and ice barrier durabilities, and speed when using that technique and scaled JUST THAT STUFF not including any NEW ABILITIES he would learn. Kiba dies instantly.



It's funny how you state things without providing me with a single proof. They stated he moves at light speed, where? Manga page? You can't give me?

I can be careless about that, at the end of the day according to databook given by Kishimoto it is stated that ice mirrors allow Haku to confuse the opponents via all the reflections from the mirrors so they can't know where the real Haku would come from, and Haku can travel b/w mirrors which are like 0.5 meters apart from each other rather quickly. Canon fact > Your imagination.

I don't care if he developed or not, why would I, in this thread it's not stated that Haku got 100x stronger or something.

What durability? To break from bumping into a person who was punched? Much durable, it's best durability feat is surviving a weak katon, no proof it can take anything above that, and the way it shattered seems like it's pretty weak. What speed? He is same speed as he was in base, mirrors were never stated to boost his speed in any way or form, they're more like ice dimensions where Haku can hit and run.

Don't talk about new abilities, it's a Naruto vs thread, not a fanfiction , we don't care about how much he could improve. Kiba doesn't die instantly. Kiba's piercing fang was stated to be able to drill holes in human being after he improved it since chuunin exam by Kishimoto, and Kiba's speed is rated same as that of Haku's but with boosted from All Four Jutsu. Gatsuuga antis any needle or close range attack Haku tries and pretty much breaks the featless mirrors in terms of durability.

Stop wanking Haku, he doesn't move at light speed for jack, Sasuke said he was adjusting to his speed even in the start, Sasuke ain't seeing light speed. Either give me proof, or get done with it.

I don't care how many more trolls agreed with you, either show me proof, or well, hush the entire Haku wank lol. Feats and canon facts matter, not opinions.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

Shanal said:


> It's funny how you state things without providing me with a single proof. They stated he moves at light speed, where? Manga page? You can't give me?
> 
> I can be careless about that, at the end of the day according to databook given by Kishimoto it is stated that ice mirrors allow Haku to confuse the opponents via all the reflections from the mirrors so they can't know where the real Haku would come from, and Haku can travel b/w mirrors which are like 0.5 meters apart from each other rather quickly. Canon fact > Your imagination.
> 
> ...



[1]

RIGHT THE FUCK HERE. It says the REFLECTIONS TRANSPORT HIM, MEANING HE IS MOVING ON LIGHT AND THAT THEY ARE NOT MOVING TO HIM. Which is what happens as you approach the speed of light. Relativity kicks in and things not moving your speed are actually moving slower.


So now we can both admit you are good at acting superior without knowing what you are saying. Congratulations.

And it's not my imagination. It's basic logic. I am sorry if you can only comprehend story segments that are spoon fed to you. Learn critical thinking.

Also.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> [1]
> 
> RIGHT THE FUCK HERE. It says the REFLECTIONS TRANSPORT HIM, MEANING HE IS MOVING ON LIGHT AND THAT THEY ARE NOT MOVING TO HIM. Which is what happens as you approach the speed of light. Relativity kicks in and things not moving your speed are actually moving slower.
> 
> ...



You're so funny it hurts  First of all, it is stated that it uses mirror's reflection to transport him, thus he has no control over his body when he's being taken from one mirror to another without his own will (that is by getting out and attacking then running into the mirror)

In the databook it was stated that due Haku's ability to quickly switch mirrors, it's really hard to hit him since when you destroy one mirror, Haku would be in the next one already. It is light speed, I am not arguing that, but what my debate is, Haku can't attack at light speed, he can only switch mirrors at light speed.

As shown during Haku's next appearance: created the world 

It is clear that Haku's attacks were being dodged at last second not only by a sharingan-less Sasuke, but also Naruto solely by focusing their chakra on their feat alone proves he can't attack at light speed, and it was just starting of the battle, nowhere near end.

Your argument has so many flaws, you're mingling things together and stating something as something else. Haku can switch mirrors at extremely fast speed, but he can't attack with them at such speed, evident in both databook and manga pages were Naruto and Sasuke could avoid his attacks.

*EDIT:* Also I would like to state that in anime, the fight was longer, while in manga it was dealt with quite soon, so Haku wasn't really drawn out of chakra.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

....Haku attacks sasuke straight from one mirror into another repeatedly. In fact one time while he is in midair does it a couple dozen times, in one fall..... Hmmmmmm......


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> ....Haku attacks sasuke straight from one mirror into another repeatedly. In fact one time while he is in midair does it a couple dozen times, in one fall..... Hmmmmmm......



What are you talking about, anime or so? Sasuke was able to react to Haku's moves, along with Naruto, instantly after Haku did his first move proves my point. Mirror's databook entry states that Haku can switch b/w mirrors quickly, but not move and attack people, if he could, Sasuke could never keep up.

In manga,Haku never really got that much tired since Sasuke activated sharingan MUCH quicker.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

Shanal said:


> What are you talking about, anime or so? Sasuke was able to react to Haku's moves, along with Naruto, instantly after Haku did his first move proves my point. Mirror's databook entry states that Haku can switch b/w mirrors quickly, but not move and attack people, if he could, Sasuke could never keep up.
> 
> In manga,Haku never really got that much tired since Sasuke activated sharingan MUCH quicker.



You can keep saying the data book says that forever. The manga AND anime both show differently.

And you keep asking how sasuke could fight if haku is moving that fast. For the 10,000th and final time. Haku slows down as he runs out of chakra. And is using and insanely draining technique that is not only blood unique but something only an adult should be doing.

And although I actually do think for you this is a spoiler it shouldn't be.... Haku didn't want to kill them, and wasted a lot of time, in which they would be dead. AND EVERYONE POINTED THIS OUT DURING THAT FIGHT. Haku, Kakashi and Zabuza all said it repeatedly.

I am providing manga proof, screen shots, logic, and other people saying it. You have the data book says no.... This conversation is done.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> You can keep saying the data book says that forever. The manga AND anime both show differently.



Databook and manga are canon, anime filler moments aren't done by Kishi thus they hold no value. In manga, Sasuke managed to react to and dodge Haku's attacks right after the start ALONG with Naruto. He isn't at light speed, and is certainly not above a mid-chuunin level.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Are you dense or something? I already told you he didn't run out of chakra, in manga Sasuke managed to dodge and react to him instantly after the first attack, his next attacks were all dodged at critical movement, not only by Sasuke, but also by Naruto.


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## Cormag (Nov 24, 2015)

zabuza fucking destroys them.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Also, I would like to say that Haku moved within mirrors always faster than he moved outside: created the world  This is Haku moving AFTER SASUKE MANAGED TO DODGE AND REACT TO ALL HIS MOVES ALONG WITH NARUTO.

Proves my point again. Haku, who was dodged by and reacted by Sasuke and Naruto could move faster within mirrors.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Also, I would like to say that Haku moved within mirrors always faster than he moved outside: Link removed This is Haku moving AFTER SASUKE MANAGED TO DODGE AND REACT TO ALL HIS MOVES ALONG WITH NARUTO.
> 
> Proves my point again. Haku, who was dodged by and reacted by Sasuke and Naruto could move faster within mirrors.



I will indulge you one LAST TIME. By pointing out that your argument goes in circles. Now I have to quote myself.....

I already said. Why are you talking about haku's base speed when it doesn't matter? I KNOW HE MOVES FASTER IN HIS MIRRORS. That was my point this whole fucking argument. Now you want to act like thats not even what we are talking about.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I will indulge you one LAST TIME. By pointing out that your argument goes in circles. Now I have to quote myself.....
> 
> I already said. Why are you talking about haku's base speed when it doesn't matter? I KNOW HE MOVES FASTER IN HIS MIRRORS. That was my point this whole fucking argument. Now you want to act like thats not even what we are talking about.



You're really dense, are you not? He only moves fast while switching mirrors, but he cannot attack as fast, it is evident when Haku's attacks were all been reacted by Sasuke and Naruto while both of them couldn't track Haku while being transported from one mirror to another.

Databook says Haku can switch between mirrors real fast, that doesn't mean he can ATTACK while switching. You do know the difference between transporting and actually moving out to attack? Haku  can only SWITCH between mirrors at speed of light to trick opponents, but if he goes out and tries to attack them, Haku will be as fast as he is in base.

Link removed As I showed here, a while ago Sasuke could dodge and see Haku's movements when he was attacking, however Sasuke couldn't see Haku switching mirrors proves my point that Haku can't attack and move inside the dome as fast as he can switch between mirrors (which is teleportation, more or less, due to speed of light.)

Haku stated that he can switch due to reflection, thus, his mirrors reflecting his image into each other allows him to go to the reflected area in an instant, but he has no control over his body in the middle and can't attack enemies while doing it, it just happens instantly, which is supported by Databook written by Kishimoto.

If you don't even get me putting this in so simple language, I am dismissing you as a troll, I have better things to do than waste my time explaining it over and over again.

Haku DOES NOT MOVE AT LIGHT"S SPEED, he simply SWITCHES HIS LOCATION BETWEEN HIS MIRRORS ONLY AT LIGHT'S SPEED.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

[1] this panel right here puts to lie everything you said. Can we stop now please? You have no leg to stand on.

Hint sasuke is not dodging when he is standing completely still to haku. Haku did not want to kill sasuke. I don't know why the concept of mercy is eluding you.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> [1] this panel right here puts to lie everything you said. Can we stop now please? You have no leg to stand on.



They can be senbons, it isn't Haku, he was holding senbons in his hand at that moment after all, hell, they even look like senbons.

Either way, if it was Haku, Sasuke clearly reacted to his next attack with ease.

Stop stating bullshit, I am getting real tired. Sasuke and Naruto were dodging him non-stop after his first attack and I just showed you the manga page proving my point, rather than yours which is half-assed.

Databook entry, manga fact, Haku's statement about moving via reflecting which logically should only allow him to move from one mirror to another rather than on his will proves my point.

State one more stupid thing and I am ignoring you, you're ignoring the manga feats and canon fact, learn to debate before jumping into a thread.


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## Reznor (Nov 24, 2015)

S4 hype...

4 CS2 S4 > 2 Special Jounins > 4 CS1 S4. 
If you want to hype S4, you can speculate that 4 CS2 S4 >>> 2 Special Jounins if you want...
but the fact that even CS1 wasn't enough is pretty clear. CS1 and Base S4 are soundly below Special Jounin level if they would lose to Special Jounin with such a numerical advantage.

So what are we expecting the change for CS1 to CS2 is? It's going to take them from 1/2 a special jounin to mid regular jounin? It didn't seem that drastic. Sakon/Ukon when in and out of CS levels through out the fight. It's not like a Frieza form change were it was entirely different leagues.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

Shanal said:


> They can be senbons, it isn't Haku, he was holding senbons in his hand at that moment after all, hell, they even look like senbons.
> 
> Either way, if it was Haku, Sasuke clearly reacted to his next attack with ease.
> 
> ...



SOMEONE CHOOSING TO SPARE YOU AND NOT INFLICT LETHAL BLOWS IS NOT YOU DODGING. I bet if a world class chess player gave you a 12 piece handicap and you won you would think you are a world class chess player.


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## Reznor (Nov 24, 2015)

> Haku DOES NOT MOVE AT LIGHT"S SPEED, he simply SWITCHES HIS LOCATION BETWEEN HIS MIRRORS ONLY AT LIGHT'S SPEED.


 Glad to see that you have a healthy doubt of the databook and don't just gobble up statements and numbers without examination.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Glad to see that you have a healthy doubt of the databook and don't just gobble up statements and numbers without examination.



I know. It's like arguing with a computer. It has a huge list of facts but refuses to connect any of the data points itself. No critical thinking.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> SOMEONE CHOOSING TO SPARE YOU AND NOT INFLICT LETHAL BLOWS IS NOT YOU DODGING. I bet if a world class chess player gave you a 12 piece handicap and you won you would think you are a world class chess player.



Haku was thinking saying that they could dodge his attacks at critical moments, he was thinking, in his thoughts, that Sasuke could keep up with his speed.

Thoughts =/= lies. Haku meant what he stated. Both Naruto and Sasuke dodged his speedy attacks.Databook is canon and it states that Haku can only switch b/s mirrors, not move at light speed. Haku himself stated that he is transported via reflection, which logically should only allow him to move to one mirror to another w/o reacting in between, Haku's attacks were notably slower in speed compared to when he switched mirrors in manga.

You ignore all these facts.

You're just a kid spouting nonsense, I am getting tired and exhausted now, go home, you lost this long ago.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Glad to see that you have a healthy doubt of the databook and don't just gobble up statements and numbers without examination.



Haku's statement: The reflections of the mirrors allow me to transport at high speed. What does they imply?

Databook entry: Haku is capable of switching his location within mirrors at high speed. What does that imply?

Haku's thoughts: Naruto and Sasuke can react to his attacks at critical moments.

^ It was right after the fight started, so he wasn't tired.

Just sayin'.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Haku was thinking saying that they could dodge his attacks at critical moments, he was thinking, in his thoughts, that Sasuke could keep up with his speed.
> 
> Thoughts =/= lies. Haku meant what he stated. Both Naruto and Sasuke dodged his speedy attacks.Databook is canon and it states that Haku can only switch b/s mirrors, not move at light speed. Haku himself stated that he is transported via reflection, which logically should only allow him to move to one mirror to another w/o reacting in between, Haku's attacks were notably slower in speed compared to when he switched mirrors in manga.
> 
> ...



True. You can't win anything logic based if the other person refuses logic as a grounds for an argument. If the data book said naruto's top speed was 1mph you would believe it. Regardless of how little sense it makes. Or what you even see with your own eyes.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> True. You can't win anything logic based if the other person refuses logic as a grounds for an argument. If the data book said naruto's top speed was 1mph you would believe it. Regardless of how little sense it makes. Or what you even see with your own eyes.



What's your logic?

You posted a manga page where Haku stated that he can use reflection between mirrors to transport, which implies and proves that he can only transport from one mirror to another via reflection.

Haku's speed was reacted by Naruto and Sasuke and he agreed to that in his thoughts proves that he wasn't light speed, and no, he wasn't out of chakra.

I am not even using databook for 90% of my argument, you're just too fail to notice the rest because you know you can't counter them.

Databook are written by Kishimoto by the way, and are canon.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

You don't have a rest. I KNOW THEY DODGED HAKUS ATTACKS ONCE HAKU SLOWED DOWN. I said that a dozen times so far. You literally cannot put 2 pieces of logic together. Not even 2. There is no point to this conversation. And no. I posted a manga page of HAKU MOVING SO FAST that he is attacking dozens of times while sasuke cannot move. Even if you wanted to imply that is him throwing ice needles, and not actually moving which he is, he would still be moving and throwing and near light speed. Which is more than anyone can handle if he is serious.

So. Even if we take your claim, which again is contered by panels of the manga and anime. It doesn't matter. No one can answer that.


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## Kai (Nov 24, 2015)

For a shinobi of Zabuza's caliber, they're going to have to bring in Kimimaro. They're not handling someone who was on Kakashi's general level.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> You don't have a rest. I KNOW THEY DODGED HAKUS ATTACKS ONCE HAKU SLOWED DOWN. I said that a dozen times so far. You literally cannot put 2 pieces of logic together. Not even 2. There is no point to this conversation.



Proof Haku slowed down? According to Haku, they were dodging his attacks ever since the fight started minus the first surprise attack he did on Sasuke. It was never once stated that Haku was tired then.

I have said that dozen of time, you ignored it.

One panel showed of Haku talking about how he can teleport between mirros to mirrors (Which, again, proves my point) then next appearance had Haku thinking "They dodged all of my attacks at critical moments..." proves that they were doing it since the fight started.

You're seriously being dense now 

Naruto and Sasuke could react and dodge Haku trying to hit them but they could not see Haku switching mirrors right after *completely and truly proves my point that Haku switches mirrors faster than he can move, counter that, or shut it.

Also the page you posted could just have senbons, it was not really clear, so yeah, it was half-assed while mine clearly proves my claim. And how where those needles light speed, Sasuke couldn't see where they were coming from due to reflections so he couldn't dodge properly, it was the first attack and took him by surprise.*


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Proof Haku slowed down? According to Haku, they were dodging his attacks ever since the fight started minus the first surprise attack he did on Sasuke. It was never once stated that Haku was tired then.
> 
> I have said that dozen of time, you ignored it.
> 
> ...




So because the panel I posted COULD have been something other than what it was you have grounds? Again. And read the rest of my post. That technicality doesn't matter. If he can throw ice needles from that many directions that quickly he can kill you before you can react if it's his intention.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> So because the panel I posted COULD have been something other than what it was you have grounds? Again. And read the rest of my post. That technicality doesn't matter. If he can throw ice needles from that many directions that quickly he can kill you before you can react if it's his intention.



No, I have grounds because I proved my point about Haku not moving at light speed at all while only switching b/w mirrors at light speed, and you ignored that point because you were proven wrong and continued to talk shit about me and my claims nonetheless while saying nothing to counter them. That's just childish.

Anyway, Sasuke was taken by surprise due to that attack, it was shown that both he and Naruto could avoid most of the needles afterward, and we all know Sasuke was just a genin back then, not really comparable to 90% of characters out there, anyone else would've easily avoided them initially considering Haku didn't hit Sasuke OR Naruto with them later on.

There goes your claim of Haku moving at light speed anyway.

Sakon, Tayuya and rest react much faster, and not going off-topic, according to OP *the starting distance is 50m, no intel and IC mindset, under those condition Haku would get genned before he can close the gap and set mirrors up, S4 wins either way*

My claims..

Haku doesn't move at light speed: Proved.
Haku can only switch b/w mirrors at that speed: Proved.
Haku's needles took Sasuke off guard and didn't manage to hit many times on him OR NARUTO and were being dodged at critical moments: Proved.

Haku is mid-chuunin level: Proved.

Anyway, night for now 1 AM, getting real tired.


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## Punished Kiba (Nov 24, 2015)

Sorry, to intrude...but I just wanna say that there's no way that SRA Kiba would lose against Haku.....That is all


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

Shanal said:


> No, I have grounds because I proved my point about Haku not moving at light speed at all while only switching b/w mirrors at light speed, and you ignored that point because you were proven wrong and continued to talk shit about me and my claims nonetheless while saying nothing to counter them. That's just childish.
> 
> Anyway, Sasuke was taken by surprise due to that attack, it was shown that both he and Naruto could avoid most of the needles afterward, and we all know Sasuke was just a genin back then, not really comparable to 90% of characters out there, anyone else would've easily avoided them initially considering Haku didn't hit Sasuke OR Naruto with them later on.
> 
> ...




So we are just going to completely ignore all of the parts where it was explicitly stated that haku intentionally avoided all of their vital spots?

Also. You have a paradox. Both of those claims can't be true.

Either haku can't switch mirrors at light speed or cannot move at light speed. It cannot be both.

Additionally. Things do not travel slower than the initial velocity of the thing they left from. If haku is swapping mirrors at light speed while throwing ice needles the needles HAVE to be traveling at light speed. Basic property of physics. Meaning sasuke can only survive what haku allows, until he starts slowing down.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

KingForever7 said:


> Sorry, to intrude...but I just wanna say that there's no way that SRA Kiba would lose against Haku.....That is all



Gatsuuga interrupts any of the needles or close ranged attacks used by Haku. The mirrors are shown to be quite fragile and thus can be pierced through Tsuuga, which was stated to have improved greatly since Chuunin exam (evident when he used them against Tobi too). Haku's mirrors best durability feat: surviving a weak katon.

Setting up mirrors take time too. Kiba is much faster than Sasuke during SRA and is further boosted via All Four, even if he can't break them, he can use Tsuuga and just get out of the 0.5 meter gap b/w the mirrors while shrugging off all the needles away from him, Haku with his lame strength and taijutsu skills can't get close to Tsuuga.


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## Shanal (Nov 24, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> So we are just going to completely ignore all of the parts where it was explicitly stated that haku intentionally avoided all of their vital spots?
> 
> Also. You have a paradox. Both of those claims can't be true.
> 
> Either haku can't switch mirrors at light speed or cannot move at light speed. It cannot be both.



No, we're not, but we are going to take in consideration that Naruto and Sasuke could dodge his attacks according to himself and they are mid tier genins at that point.

No, I don't have a paradox, you simply don't counter them and state random bs.

Haku can switch b/w mirrors at light speed, thus he can move between the mirrors due to reflection, however he cannot control his body mid movement, if he wants to attack someone, he needs to get out himself (not transport to another mirror via reflection), attack them, and quickly hide in mirror rather than, again, transporting from one mirror to another.

This, again is proved by the fact that Haku's attacks were avoided by Naruto and Sasuke but they couldn't see him moving b/w mirrors.

Switching mirrors and actual movement of Haku are entirely different things, gosh, it's not hard to get, you're being difficult.

P.S: I am off for tonight.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

Shanal said:


> No, we're not, but we are going to take in consideration that Naruto and Sasuke could dodge his attacks according to himself and they are mid tier genins at that point.
> 
> No, I don't have a paradox, you simply don't counter them and state random bs.
> 
> ...



And again you ignore the most pertinent part of my argument whenever it is convenient. The part about the needles moving at light speed as well. I really hope you are done, because I am too stubborn to walk away from a conversation even when I know there is no hope of convincing the other person. You might figuratively be a wall and literally have the IQ. But I generally only give up if it's a literal wall.

I will put this most simply..... In the image I linked. Even if we assume that is Haku throwing ice needles he is still MOVING BETWEEN THE MIRRORS AND THROWING ICE NEEDLES FAST ENOUGH TO BE COMING FROM EVERY DIRECTION AT ONCE. Which means he can move and attack. I don't care what your retarded book says. Ask ANY fan of any series, the original work trumps any additional information in terms of accuracy. Even if he can only THROW needles and not physically attack, they still get all of his movement speed, which is near light speed. And because of his rate of movement sasuke is not even moving through time, because again, relativity, and they even STATED IT IN THAT PANEL.

So that leaves 2 options for how the fight went down. Either kishi had absolutely 0 consistency (we have to assume his universe is consistent or all arguments are invalid, yours and mine) and in one panel Haku is literally God and the strongest character Naruto will show at any point and in the next panel weaker than a child. OR Haku started running low on chakra fast because. What an insane technique for anyone let alone a child to be using.... Hmmm.... Logic.... And Critical Thinking....... The things I keep saying you are refusing to use..... Also. The faster you are to light speed the slower time is relative to you. That one panel could have been hours to haku.

CONNECT THE DOTS OF THE FIGHT, DON'T JUST LOOK AT RAW DATA.

You also never addressed how genjutsu works on someone in another dimension. If your answer to the dimensional question by saying they never said he had this ability then this conversation is done. If you only go off of the things explicitly listed in your book why are you in this conversation? You are not trying to theorycraft at all. Might as well say any one of the sound 4 could beat zabuza and haku because they are later in the story and therefore stronger.

And it's up to you to explain how Haku PHYSICALLY enters a sheet of ice a fraction of his own body width. Unless it's another dimension.

Mind you I am not saying that Tayuya's Genjutsu would not still work. Haku can still hear people. But the situation of trying to use genjutsu on someone in another dimension has never come up.


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## Reznor (Nov 24, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Haku's statement: The reflections of the mirrors allow me to transport at high speed. What does they imply?
> 
> Databook entry: Haku is capable of switching his location within mirrors at high speed. What does that imply?
> 
> ...



I was just trying to hold you to a view of the databook before the inevitable face-value usage of databook stats for comparing speed/strength/etc came up.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

Furthermore Shanal. Lets look at how your argument has evolved. First it was Haku cannot move at light speed. Try to deny it, but go read your own posts or make me quote you 20 times to show it. Then you LAUGHED AND SAID DUH he can move at light speed but only to do this. Your argument has never been about what haku can or can't do. You can't stand the idea that this character would have killed sasuke if he wanted to.....


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## Reznor (Nov 24, 2015)

To be clear, I wasn't siding with light speed Haku, I just think Zabuza + backup > S4.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 24, 2015)

Reznor said:


> To be clear, I wasn't siding with light speed Haku, I just think Zabuza + backup > S4.



Never said you did agree there lol. Not trying to shangai you into a debate you weren't having . And even I agree that Tayuya can possibly beat haku.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> And again you ignore the most pertinent part of my argument whenever it is convenient. The part about the needles moving at light speed as well. I really hope you are done, because I am too stubborn to walk away from a conversation even when I know there is no hope of convincing the other person. You might figuratively be a wall and literally have the IQ. But I generally only give up if it's a literal wall.



Needles don't move at light speed, you kitty, they were thrown from all sides due to Haku's instant switching between the mirrors, needles still move at needles speed, they're just thrown from all sides, and taking aim while throwing them this quickly is rather hard too, many B rank jutsus should be able to do something which attacks from all side, any form of defense or extremely quick speed would anti it. Where are you saying they are thrown at light speed? They're normally thrown, just hard to dodge due to all sides.

I am not done, you're stating bullcrap though, so yeah, you are pretty stubborn even though you lost. And the best thing you are doing is insult others and state false facts then try to prove them right, acting immature already.



> I will put this most simply..... In the image I linked. Even if we assume that is Haku throwing ice needles he is still MOVING BETWEEN THE MIRRORS AND THROWING ICE NEEDLES FAST ENOUGH TO BE COMING FROM EVERY DIRECTION AT ONCE. Which means he can move and attack. I don't care what your retarded book says. Ask ANY fan of any series, the original work trumps any additional information in terms of accuracy. Even if he can only THROW needles and not physically attack, they still get all of his movement speed, which is near light speed. And because of his rate of movement sasuke is not even moving through time, because again, relativity, and they even STATED IT IN THAT PANEL.



Sigh, no, I have corrected you there, just saying. Also, needles are thrown at normal speed, not light speed. Also, Haku can't go out and attack people "manually" as in punching kicking etc at light speed, he can only switch between mirrors and quickly send needles and switch again and whatnot, very good of a jutsu for some genins to deal with, however not much when you get high-tier. 

How'd it get light speed if Haku teleports between mirrors and throws senbon at him non-stop? It can just be compared to 20 people in 20 mirrors all throwing needles at Sasuke nearly at same time O_o, are you, like, kidding me? Your logic is beyond me. In that panel Haku stated how he can teleport between the mirrors, not move out, hit you, and go back. Haku can't MOVE at light speed neither he can THROW at light speed, he can just SWITCH BETWEEN MIRRORS at light speed.

Proved by the fact that *Sasuke and Naruto could keep up with Haku's attacks when he goes out but couldn't keep up with him switching between mirrors.*

As for Databook, they're right, you're still wrong and your logic is more or less horrid.



> So that leaves 2 options for how the fight went down. Either kishi had absolutely 0 consistency (we have to assume his universe is consistent or all arguments are invalid, yours and mine) and in one panel Haku is literally God and the strongest character Naruto will show at any point and in the next panel weaker than a child. OR Haku started running low on chakra fast because. What an insane technique for anyone let alone a child to be using.... Hmmm.... Logic.... And Critical Thinking....... The things I keep saying you are refusing to use..... Also. The faster you are to light speed the slower time is relative to you. That one panel could have been hours to haku.



Please don't speak of logic when according to you just because Haku switches between mirrors and throws the needles, the needles themselves become light sped rather than normally thrown. Sigh. You're immature, again, stating false facts then telling the opposition that they suck.

Look, I'll repeat in simpler words. Haku can't move at light speed, he can switch between mirrors, in more simpler words, he can *teleport between mirrors at light speed*, he has no control over his body until he reaches the next mirror, which is further proved by the fact whenever Haku moved out to attack manually, Sasuke managed to see him and dodge him, however when Haku tried to switch b/w mirrors, Sasuke didn't even realize when it happened. Haku throwing senbons while switching between mirrors is a situation similar to when 20 people are throwing senbons from all 20 mirrors, however the senbons themselves, while coming from all direction, are normally sped senbon not light-speed. Even Sasuke in next page stated that they were coming from all direction, not that they were so damned fast. (Oh yeah, my proof of they were only senbons too).

Haku never once moved at light speed unless he was switching between mirrors. Feat-wise, Haku managed to move at weightless Lee's speed, which, compared to Naruto/Sasuke is great, and really hard to counter (that's why its stated Sasuke could only move at critical moments). And Haku's speed is rated same as base Lee's, so it makes sense all in all, both logic and databook-wise.

Haku's movements are normal, his mirrors just grant him ability to switch places with one of his reflections instantly. That's the simplest I can put it in, hope it gets to you.

Haku is too haxxed for bunch of genins, however any high-rank one should be able to rek him, saying he is anywhere close to shippuden-level just makes me laugh. Lee, Neji, Kiba, Chouji (via expansion) can all beat him post-skip, he isn't that big of a deal in general, and he by no means can stand a single chance against someone like Kakashi.


> You also never addressed how genjutsu works on someone in another dimension. If your answer to the dimensional question by saying they never said he had this ability then this conversation is done. If you only go off of the things explicitly listed in your book why are you in this conversation? You are not trying to theorycraft at all. Might as well say any one of the sound 4 could beat zabuza and haku because they are later in the story and therefore stronger.




Well, Haku can see them from it, hear them from it, and whatnot, so he'll get genned, simple as that. Also, it's a vs thread, not a fanfiction, we're not talking about Zabuza and Haku in future, stop it 



> Mind you I am not saying that Tayuya's Genjutsu would not still work. Haku can still hear people. But the situation of trying to use genjutsu on someone in another dimension has never come up.



If Haku hears Tayuya, he gets genned, if he gets genned, it's easy to shatter his mirror and kill him. Simple as that, either way in this battle distance is 50m, Haku dies before he can set mirror up too. Since intel is none and mindset is IC, I repeat.

Also, you're too dense if you think my argument changes even a bit. From the start I kept saying Haku can't move at light speed on his own, I still say that, Haku can only switch between mirrors at light speed which is basically teleportation more or less. If you want a clearer explanation, it's similar to Minato's teleportation via hirashin kunai (I do know there's nothing same between how they both work, but it's just an example of how Haku can teleport/move between mirrors at speed of light but not really attack at same time. He only switches between mirrors)


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

You have yet to show me ANYWHERE where it says haku can't attack, or that haku has no control of his body when switching mirrors? Again even if your book says that everything in the manga, everything in the anime, and everything posted by every person on this forum about him at any point contradicts this. I can literally link you 10 dozen threads that show you are wrong.

Also. If you stopped a thought for even half a second what you are saying is impossible. If haku has to exit the mirror and move and normal speed to throw the ice needles they would only come from one direction at once, because nobody can throw that fast anyway. To get that many sets in the air from that many different directions at once to be moving....near light speed..... wow.......Unless you want to imply that haku can also THROW at light speed but the objects themselves won't travel at light speed? Which by the way is the least logical sentence I have ever constructed.

And at no point did I future craft at all. I am taking haku was he was shown alive. Not assuming any power changes.


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## Braiyan (Nov 25, 2015)

I guess Base Guy and Lee also move at near light speed.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

I will most likely ignore you after this comment, you're keep making me repeat the same thing and ask the questions which I didn't answer in my previous post, but answered 4 posts ago. You're a troll, just that.



Hyugadoobadoo said:


> You have yet to show me ANYWHERE where it says haku can't attack, or that haku has no control of his body when switching mirrors? Again even if your book says that everything in the manga, everything in the anime, and everything posted by every person on this forum about him at any point contradicts this. I can literally link you 10 dozen threads that show you are wrong.



You have to show me the place where Haku attacked at speed of light. The only statement you showed me was Haku claiming he can transport between the mirrors due to reflection, this proves the fact that he can only teleport between the mirrors where the reflection takes place. What contradiction you have against me? The only other person in this thread who talked about this said he doesn't agree with your retarded logic behind it. What contradiction you have against the following.

*Haku himself claimed that the reflection between mirrors allows him to transport, which clearly implies that he can only move between the mirrors, which again implies that he can't freely go out, move around hit the target and go back into another mirror at speed of light, but instead can only teleport between mirrors.

The fact that Sasuke could keep up and dodge Haku's movements while attacking manually but could not keep up or even notice when Haku switched between mirrors proves the fact that switching speed is >>>> Haku's normal moving speed.

The fact that Databook, which is canon, agrees with my statement.*

You have countered nothing here, both manga-wise and canon databook-wise, my statements are right. You're nothing but a kid who is too stubborn to give up on a false argument ,I am keep repeating myself and you are not even ONCE COUNTERING ANYTHING I HAVE SAID.

Either answer the bold ones, or don't post. Also, nothing in manga says that Haku was tired when Sasuke and Naruto dodged him, so don't bring it up, because that's also bullshit.



> Also. If you stopped a thought for even half a second what you are saying is impossible. If haku has to exit the mirror and move and normal speed to throw the ice needles they would only come from one direction at once, because nobody can throw that fast anyway. To get that many sets in the air from that many different directions at once to be moving....near light speed..... wow.......Unless you want to imply that haku can also THROW at light speed but the objects themselves won't travel at light speed? Which by the way is the least logical sentence I have ever constructed.



Are you honestly kidding me? It's been shown that Haku can just move a finger out and throw the needles towards the opponent. Haku can quickly switch between mirrors and continue throwing needles at him from all the direction. Haku switches between the mirrors with speed of light, all he has to do is quickly switch spam teleport between mirrors and continue to shower with senbons.

How is that related to throwing at light speed. It's basically. I threw, I teleported in 1/99999999 (exmaple) seconds to another one, threw senbon, teleported again, threw. it's not like Haku has to adjust his body and aim before throwing he just continues to throw as if he is in one mirror only, however due to instant teleportation, the senbons continue to come from all the mirrors. It's basically Haku is just throwing senbons while the reflection teleports him away anyway, he doesn't need to adjust his body or take aim, he just needs to continue to throw the friggin' senbons and the reflection does all the work.

*Haku: These mirrors allow me to transport by the reflection.*

In the reflection, Haku is already pointing inside so it doesn't matter, wherever he throws the senbons would be inside the small dome which is like 3-4 meters in diameter anyway,  as long as he's throwing and teleporting around, the senbons would nail the target. You do know how fast light moves right? He's basically teleporting within mirrors in like 0.0000000(numbers) seconds or so.

If you're claiming that the senbons are light sped, then give me one legit reason as to why Sasuke and Naruto dodged them when Haku was not throwing them from all the sides? This proves my claim, too. Sasuke could see,dodge, and keep up with Haku's manual speed, the only speed he couldn't see was when Haku switched between mirrors. Sasuke didn't say the needles were fast, he said they came from all the directions.



> And at no point did I future craft at all. I am taking haku was he was shown alive. Not assuming any power changes.



You said imagine if they lived, I don't care about if they got stronger if they lived or not, we're comparing bridge Haku here, anyway, I guess I won the entire argument about S4 winning this due to distance and intel anyway.

And I also won the argument about Haku's speed, unless according to you, KN1, whose speed Sasuke could not match or see is >>>>>>> Light speed, at speed in which Haku moved while attacking Sasuke (no, not even once it was stated he was any tired during that time, it's pure speculation)

Either answer all my questions, or don't post, you're just being immature and annoying at this point, making me repeat myself while you ignore everything I say and grab one point and talk about it.

5 points contradict your claim of Haku's speed.
1 point HAVE POSSIBLE CHANCES OF CONTRADICTING MY SENBON THROWING POINT and you only go on about it.

Not in mood of these half-assed conversation, either come up with a counter to everything I say, or don't bother me with questions I answered 5 posts ago just because I didn't recently said them.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Braiyan said:


> I guess Base Guy and Lee also move at near light speed.



Exactly, they easily interrupted an infinite-chakra Haku's mirror blitz. This person here really needs to learn what he's talking about, rofl.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Exactly, they easily interrupted an infinite-chakra Haku's mirror blitz. This person here really needs to learn what he's talking about, rofl.



If you were to go look at other posts I have made. I am pretty much always disagreeing with everyone on here. And sometimes I concede points to other people when they are right and people usually conceded to me when I am right. You are the only person I have spoken to on this forum who is wrong about everything you say and cannot stand to give an inch about any of it.

Please do ignore me. I really can't read anymore of this retardation. Go learn some physics. Stop taking what characters say and then saying oh but that isn't true if haku says it.... Fucking pathetic man. I literally don't know why I am so angry but you are the TYPE of person I really wish the world didn't have. If I sat down with 10 mathematicians and every other expert in the world and PROVED IT you would say it's wrong because you go to sleep cradling a little book full of contradictions. The irony is so fucking juicy it's unreal. Please don't ever respond to anything I say again. I don't care if it's even to agree with me. I would rather you didn't.

You have managed to get through a multiple day conversation without using any logic. And still walked away thinking you were right. It's unreal. I have literally never seen that level of idiocy.

I keep wanting to add to this comment. To keep poking holes in your statements but I realized everything I am saying including this is justifying you because it makes it sound like these arguments deserve a response. It upsets me because it shows me there are people out there that no amount of logic matters to. You have not once, in ANYTHING you have said used logic. You just kept saying "Haku said he uses reflections" that implies he can't attack. Why? Why does it even imply that? I never felt like asking that question because there is no answer that makes sense. 

But you will believe anything a book tells you. Even if your own eyes see different. And god (funny irony again) forbid logic or rational supposition be allowed in.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 25, 2015)

No knowledge, he slaughters one initially, Haku as well likely getting one initially, when the arrogant Sound 4 moves to take down the random Zabuza & Haku who they don't even know are shinobi, let alone elite ones. 

From there taking out the other 2 will be child's play.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> If you were to go look at other posts I have made. I am pretty much always disagreeing with everyone on here. And sometimes I concede points to other people when they are right and people usually conceded to me when I am right. You are the only person I have spoken to on this forum who is wrong about everything you say and cannot stand to give an inch about any of it.
> 
> Please do ignore me. I really can't read anymore of this retardation. Go learn some physics. Stop taking what characters say and then saying oh but that isn't true if haku says it.... Fucking pathetic man. I literally don't know why I am so angry but you are the TYPE of person I really wish the world didn't have. If I sat down with 10 mathematicians and every other expert in the world and PROVED IT you would say it's wrong because you go to sleep cradling a little book full of contradictions. The irony is so fucking juicy it's unreal. Please don't ever respond to anything I say again. I don't care if it's even to agree with me. I would rather you didn't.
> 
> ...



Obviously people disagree with you, noone agrees to a troll, you know. You're the typical troll who proceeds to insult the other guy when he fails to counter any of the statements given

Fun part is, only 1% of my entire argument is based on Databooks, and you are only talking about the books. you haven't countered anything I have said and only managed to insult me or talk about how I am basing my things off books when I am not even talking about them.

Haku says his reflections transports him, it implies that he isn't moving on his own will but rather than just going to the path created by reflections, it's basically he's teleporting to his reflection at other mirror. The fact that Haku was much slower while attacking than while switching the mirrors proved my points 

You're so cute when angry, I have answered this question like 10 times now. I have legit feats and canon facts to back me up. Sasuke keeping up with a non-tired Haku. Haku shown slower in manga while attacking manually than while switching mirrors, Haku himself admitting in his thoughts that Sasuke can keep up with his speed. You state too many false things and get angry over it when proved wrong. Majority agree with him not moving at light speed here and you're provided no legit proof of it. Haku attacked and was dodged by Sasuke non-stop, Haku switched mirrors and wasn't seen. Haku said mirror's reflection *transport* him. It has, like, nothing to do with books at this point.  

Well, when people start loosing an argument overall, they tend to loose their temper and spout bullshit which makes no sense after all, well, guess this means I won. Good day, sir.

Well, a child who personally starts insulting the opposition in an argument is pretty much immature and not worth much time. Just look at your own post and realize how pathetic you have been.


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## Vice (Nov 25, 2015)

This topic really should be closed. Nobody except this dude actually believes the sound 4 fodder squad can beat a jonin.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Vice said:


> This topic really should be closed. Nobody except this dude actually believes the sound 4 fodder squad can beat a jonin.



A jounin who admitted to being weaker than then gennin he traveled with. If one thing is a canon another thing is.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> No. People gave up. Give said and I quote. I am not going back and forth with you anymore. And a bunch of other people. You are an idiot.



See, lashing back like an angry kid. You still haven't said anything about my points other than talking about databooks.

*Haku stating that his mirrors transport him via reflection. Words to note, transportation and reflection implies that he isn't moving on his own will but he is being transported from one mirror to another via reflection, that is speed of light.

Haku stating that Sasuke and Naruto can dodge his manual attacks, proves the fact that he can't move at speed of light on his own.

Sasuke keeping up with Haku while not being able to notice when Haku switches mirrors proves the fact that Haku's switching speed has nothing to do with Haku's original speed in the dome.

All things considered, Haku only uses reflection of mirrors to go from one mirror to another, but can't just move out and run around at speed of light, which has no possibly explanation. If he could ,Sasuke and Naruto wouldn't dodge him, but they did.

Haku's attacks were clearly seen and dodged by Sasuke, this, alone, is enough*

If you can't reply to any of these in your next post, don't bother talking about off-topic stuffs, unless you want your post deleted, you're causing spam in the thread, you know?


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Props for perseverance, Shanal



Itachi, cmon bud, I know you're good. Don't tell me you actually believe Haku can move near light speed?


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## Itachі (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Itachi, cmon bud, I know you're good. Don't tell me you actually believe Haku can move near light speed?



I'm not following the debate lol, I'm rusty in general when it comes to Naruto characters but in Part 1 it's even worse for me. Wasn't 2 Tomoe Sasuke able to track Haku's movements? From what I can remember I would favour Zabuza & Haku though.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Are you, like,a troll or something?
> 
> *Haku stating that his mirrors transport him via reflection. Words to note, transportation and reflection implies that he isn't moving on his own will but he is being transported from one mirror to another via reflection, that is speed of light.
> 
> ...



Fine. One last time. Impress me. Please. I am trying to put some hope in your ability to form rational arguments.


Haku stating that his mirrors transport him via reflection. Words to note, transportation and reflection implies that he isn't moving on his own will but he is being transported from one mirror to another via reflection, that is speed of light.

This doesn't imply anything about his will in the matter.



Haku stating that Sasuke can dodge his manual attacks, proves the fact that he can't move at speed of light on his own.

No it implies that Sasuke can dodge his manual attacks... And we know Haku can't use light speed without the mirrors. That doesn't seem to be a point worth making.

Sasuke keeping up with Haku while not being able to notice when Haku switches mirrors proves the fact that Haku's switching speed has nothing to do with Haku's original speed in the dome.

No. It very clearly states that haku did not want to kill. Is the idea that he was holding back insane to you?


All things considered, Haku only uses reflection of mirrors to go from one mirror to another, but can't just move out and run around at speed of light.. If he could ,Sasuke wouldn't dodge him.

No. The POINT OF THE STYLE IS THAT YOU USE THE MIRRORS TO REFLECT YOURSELF AS YOU ATTACK. Because no one can move at light speed outside of that condition.

Haku's attacks were clearly seen and dodged by Sasuke, this, alone, is enough

Yes he started dodging them after the initial eternity to Haku because of relativity that he was already maintaining the technique and could have killed sasuke literally a billion times in that one panel.


I told you to learn some physics. I will try one more time. There is a thing called relativity. The faster you get to the speed of light, the slower time is for you. MEANING if you were on a train, going 99% the speed of light as it went around the world, you could watch the rise and fall of human civilizations in an afternoon.

That 1 panel for us was forever to haku.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> This doesn't imply anything about his will in the matter.



According to Haku, the reflection from the mirrors allow him to transport. Transport is a term used for when you're being taken somewhere by something/someone, if Haku could move at his own will, he would've stated "the mirrors allow me to move at such such" but instead, he said "The jutsu uses mirror's reflection to transport me" clearly suggests that Haku is being transported in a linear movement from one mirror to another. While I do say it only IMPLIES that, and there is no PROOF of that. The fact that Haku's speed was interrupted by Sasuke and the fact that Sasuke could see Haku's attacking speed but could not tell when Haku switched mirrors proves the fact that Haku's attacking speed is slower compared to switching.



> No. It very clearly states that haku did not want to kill. Is the idea that he was holding back insane to you?



Not really, but if Haku himself shits his pants over how fast Sasuke can move and how he can see his movements, I do claim that your idea of him moving slower just because he didn't want to kill them is bullshit. He can move fast yet avoid vitals, for all you know? 



Here Haku admits Sasuke's speed.



And here Haku admits that even with his speed, attacking Sasuke would be dangerous, implies that Haku isn't any faster, because if he was, he'd have attacked anyway since Sasuke shouldn't be able to track him that way. Also, it's sooo funny that you state he moved slower because he didn't want to kill them, how does moving slowly means you can't kill them?  it's gotta do with attacking vitals, silly.



As one can see here, an infinite chakra, bloodlusted, Haku tried a blitz via mirrors against fodder shinobi (this Haku won't hold back), but was easily interrupted by Gai and Lee. So they move at light speed and can track Haku's speed? 


All things considered, Haku only uses reflection of mirrors to go from one mirror to another, but can't just move out and run around at speed of light.. If he could ,Sasuke wouldn't dodge him.

If all these pages don't prove that Haku's attacks could be interrupted by Sasuke's(Or Lee's and Gai's) movements, then I don't know what does. The fun part is Lee interrupted a bloodlusted edo Haku rather than one, who according to you, was holding back. This one also has infinite chakra. Also, I find it funny that you claimed Haku was slowed down later because apparently after Sasuke activated sharingan, Haku stated, ahem "*Then I can't fight for much longer... I can't maintain this speed for a very long period of time, I need to get rid of him quickly.*. Strongly proves the fact that he was STILL maintaining "*this"* speed.  By the way, their fight lasted 1/10th the time it lasted in anime also proves the fact that Haku wasn't all that tired.

Haku was spam interrupted in his attacks, Haku himself admitted that he can't attack Sasuke head-on. Haku, who wasn't holding back in any form was interrupted by Gai and Lee. These feats and manga facts are much more of a proof than Haku's own statement which could mean anything for all you know.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 25, 2015)

It should be pretty obvious that Haku doesn't move at light speed. He was intercepted by Wave Arc Sharingan Sasuke and was intercepted by both Lee and Gai during the War Arc.

 As for the topic, this is actually a great match-up and I think the Sound 4 have a decent shot at winning here due to their versatile moveset. They're actually what I would consider Jonin level ninja.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It should be pretty obvious that Haku doesn't move at light speed. He was intercepted by Wave Arc Sharingan Sasuke and was intercepted by both Lee and Gai during the War Arc.
> 
> As for the topic, this is actually a great match-up and I think the Sound 4 have a decent shot at winning here due to their versatile moveset. They're actually what I would consider Jonin level ninja.



I know right, Haku moving at light speed is one of the hilarious jokes fans tend to make.

Though, while S4 overall aren't much superior to the duo, what defense do Haku and Zabuza has against Tayuya's genjutsu? They have shown no feats in terms of gen (other than Zaubza being fodderized by Kakashi's) and have lame stats gen-wise too. If gen is included, and we know it;s a perfect starter if Zabuza tries to mist (Since it's IC), I can see S4 winning this quite without-much-difficulty.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 25, 2015)

^ That's exactly my point. It's also difficult to predict Kidoumaru's long-ranged techniques seeing as how Neji w/ his Byakugan was countered and Kidoumaru has the ability to employ traps which Jirobo can force the duo to trigger them with Massive Doton.

 Zabuza's quick, but CS2 Sound Four literally reacted to 2 Jonin in CQC  which is still impressive despite the Jonin being fatigued. Hell, Base Sakon literally dodged Kiba's Garouga Point-blank and his Speed is well within Weightless Lee's speed according to Databook standards which Kakashi conceded as being very fast.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

So if I say I am riding around in my car that means someone is driving me? And riding has a MUCH heavier implication of lack of control. If I use fedex to TRANSPORT my packages, I still control where they go. I can also transport myself to the store. Nothing about the word usage implies lack of control. In fact I don't think there are even words that can be used there that imply control vs not.

And in the panel I linked Haku is saying they are moving in slow motion to him. Again. Either Kishi is inconsistent and both arguments are invalid. Or what Haku said still has to hold true. Which means haku got tired fast. Which again, not surprising for a lot of reasons.

I never saw the Haku edo tensei fight until now. I went and checked it out. The panel you show is out context. Haku is heading out of one mirror directly into an attack against someone, which you not only said haku can't do. But would DEFINITELY not be haku at his fastest, because as BOTH YOU AND I AGREED he is only at that speed when going from one mirror to another (whether or not he slips an attack in).


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Exactly, suggesting Zabuza can just blitz and kill the S4 is pretty much hilarious all things considered. People really do tend to underestimate S4, or well, hype Zaubza. Specially given the distance between the groups, I would go for S4 more times than not.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It should be pretty obvious that Haku doesn't move at light speed. He was intercepted by Wave Arc Sharingan Sasuke and was intercepted by both Lee and Gai during the War Arc.
> 
> As for the topic, this is actually a great match-up and I think the Sound 4 have a decent shot at winning here due to their versatile moveset. They're actually what I would consider Jonin level ninja.



Then you have a lot of explaining to do that Shanal never did about how haku can either attack or throw needles depending on if you want to go by the manga version of what happened or make up your own. Either way though to have that many attacks that close together from that many different directions haku is either attacking near light speed or throwing needles near light speed, the end result is no different.


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## Vice (Nov 25, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> They're actually what I would consider Jonin level ninja.



And they've demonstrated that they're at this level by losing to the only legitimate jonin they've ever fought, struggling against special jonin and losing to chunin.

Clearly jonin level.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> So if I say I am riding around in my car that means someone is driving me? And riding has a MUCH heavier implication of lack of control. If I use fedex to TRANSPORT my packages, I still control where they go. I can also transport myself to the store. Nothing about the word usage implies lack of control. In fact I don't think there are even words that can be used there that imply control vs not.



No, silly, but it does imply that you yourself can't move as fast as a car. Being transported means that you are being taken by something rather than going there yourself, when people say they're going via a car in terms of speed, they say "I am driving a car" or "I am moving in a car, you know?" rather than "This car is transporting me", transporting alone suggests that you're not on your own free will.



> And in the panel I linked Haku is saying they are moving in slow motion to him. Again. Either Kishi is inconsistent and both arguments are invalid. Or what Haku said still has to hold true. Which means haku got tired fast. Which again, not surprising for a lot of reasons.



The scans I posted clearly has Haku admitting that he can't blitz Sasuke any longer. Haku's comment in the panel you stated can hold true for both yours and mine opinion since neither of us has any proof on what he meant there, HOWEVER, given the fact that Haku while attacking couldn't blitz Sasuke and that Sasuke could see Haku and react to him proves that MY claim was correct, not yours. Either explain Haku's thoughts, or well, we can see who won this.



> I never saw the Haku edo tensei fight until now. I went and checked it out. The panel you show is out context. Haku is heading out of one mirror directly into an attack against someone, which you not only said haku can't do. But would DEFINITELY not be haku at his fastest, because as BOTH YOU AND I AGREED he is only at that speed when going from one mirror to another (whether or not he slips an attack in).



So you're admitting that Haku can only move between mirrors in a linear direction rather than on his own free will? If so, then yes, but if you claim that Haku's speed is boosted via mirrors, then he certainly wasn't boosted there 

My pages showing Haku's thoughts while fighting Sasuke alone proves my claim. The panel you keep talking about could mean anything, since it implies what my logic suggests as well, hell, it could be a bluff. But the fact remains: *Sasuke managed to see and dodge and react to Haku's movements, and Haku wasn't out of chakra or had his speed lowered in any form or shape at all. Haku himself admitted that Sasuke could track him at his best*

The bold, is all I need to prove my claim. Your sole proof in this entire argument has been the panel of Haku, which could mean anything, and could very well mean what I explained it to be, and given the proof of Haku admitting that his speed is not enough for Sasuke, I won the entire argument by all means.

What you stated is a speculation with you try to explain what Haku meant by "transportation", what I stated is a speculation backed up by solid proof, which can't be denied. And when a speculation is backed up by a solid proof, it becomes a *fact.*

Also, I did explain how needles work, you chose to ignore it. Anyway, not repeating myself.



Vice said:


> And they've demonstrated that they're at this level by losing to the only legitimate jonin they've ever fought, struggling against special jonin and losing to chunin.
> 
> Clearly jonin level.



Yeah, they struggled against Special Jounins. They only stated that they needed to enter CS2 state to defeat them, and then they showed no visible injury following the battle and only talked about how exhausted they were *from using the CS2 state.* There's nothing which doesn't imply that they didn't outright own the Special Jounins after CS2, specially given the fact that Genma said "You'll get destroyed" to Shizune and the other Jounin, even though the fight just ended and Shizune is a Jounin 

They lost to Chuunin? A 100x stronger Chouji is a chuunin level? Neji was destroyed by Kidomaru and then he was caught off guard by an ending trick, though Neji won, he clearly lost to Kidomaru in overall comparison of skills. S4 were elites of Orochimaru for a reason.

Also, Zabuza and Haku still have no defense against Genjutsu, mind you.


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## Vice (Nov 25, 2015)

Kankuro and Temari were chunin and clearly beat them no difficulty.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

As far as I can tell. And I really would like you to correct me if I am wrong. Because this is why I keep saying you don't use logic. As far as I can tell, You are saying, "what haku said didn't matter because sasuke said otherwise". This is not a logical argument, this is sasuke is your hero. Which I know.

And for the 10000th time. I keep agreeing with you that Haku cannot use that speed without the mirrors just like I can't hit 90mph without my car. Why do you keep beating that dead horse?

And DUH haku can only move in a linear fashion... I don't know why this point is even coming up right now? He bounces between mirrors in a straight line and attacks while he does it.... How do you still not understand how this works? Also. I can transport myself to the store using my feet. Where is the implied lack of control?

Basically this whole argument seems to come down to you refusing to use critical thinking. Since those dots are not connected for you they will never be connected. I would really like someone else to comment on the logic of this and say which one of us is not making sense.

And by the way. Haku said they were going in slow motion to him. That is canon. I have an explanation that fits with everything, why he was faster one moment then not. It all ties together. I don't need to justify my answer beyond this. You need to explain why haku was lying (which wouldn't make sense anyway) and how this doesn't work.


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## Vice (Nov 25, 2015)

Shikamaru broke Tayuya's genjutsu as well, and his genjutsu rating is exactly the same as Zabuza's.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Vice said:


> Shikamaru broke Tayuya's genjutsu as well, and his genjutsu rating is exactly the same as Zabuza's.



With way less experience.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> As far as I can tell. And I really would like you to correct me if I am wrong. Because this is why I keep saying you don't use logic. As far as I can tell, You are saying, "what haku said didn't matter because sasuke said otherwise". This is not a logical argument, this is sasuke is your hero. Which I know.



What? Now you're getting off-topic and twisting my words. What Haku says does matter but it does not clarifies what he meant. Haku said the mirrors transport him at speed of light via reflection, however since he used words like transport and reflection, it is hard to say whether he can actually do it on his own free will or not. However the fact and proof that *Sasuke managed to dodge and see Haku's movements and Haku himself admitted that he can't blitz Sasuke even with his full speed clearly tells us that what he meant is either false, or it only is limited to him switching between mirrors while not moving at his own free will*

Counter the bold statement with any logic or reasoning and then we'll talk, if you won't, quit it. I am not giving a shit about what Sasuke says, he didn't even say a single thing in entire fight. Haku's words of how his mirror works + the fact that Sasuke dodged and saw his movements + the fact that Haku himself admitted that he can't blitz Sasuke >>>> Your speculation of what Haku *could have meant by "transportation via reflection"*, what you say, again, is just speculation. You have no logical way of countering the bold letters in the para above, if you can, please do it, if can't, give the argument up. Anyway, at the end of the day, your half-assed argument is based on Haku's statement which could've or could not have meant what you just speculated. It could've meant what I said, and I have proof that it meant what I said, you have no proof of that.

Either show me a proof which counters the fact that Sasuke dodged/reacted to/saw Haku's movements and the fact that Haku himself stated that he didn't have the speed to blitz Sasuke at all, or don't talk, bud, I don't have time to waste over nothing. Only answer those questions. Because you seem to talk about things which don't matter a lot.



> Basically this whole argument seems to come down to you refusing to use critical thinking. Since those dots are not connected for you they will never be connected. I would really like someone else to comment on the logic of this and say which one of us is not making sense.



Critical thinking. Your entire argument comes down to a statement which could've meant anything. So far four people talked about Haku's speed, they said he doesn't move at light speed right away. No one else talked about Haku in this thread at all, all are wanking Zabuza 



Vice said:


> Shikamaru broke Tayuya's genjutsu as well, and his genjutsu rating is exactly the same as Zabuza's.




Shikamaru didn't break it, you silly, Shikamaru used his shadow to break his finger to break the illusion. It's called inflicting pain to yourself to overcome the illusion, and he only managed to do that because he prepared the shadow in advance and used it on himself. Once you're in genjutsu, you loose the control over your body and chakra, however Shikamaru broke his finger beforehand and the pain caused the illusion to break.

Zabuza here has no intel on Tayuya's jutsu as stated by the OP, he isn't preparing in advance to break the gen.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Sasuke managed to dodge and see Haku's movements and Haku himself admitted that he can't blitz Sasuke even with his full speed clearly tells us that what he meant is either false, or it only is limited to him switching between mirrors while not moving at his own free will.



I am answering specifically your bold text...... The explanation I gave fits everything, why haku could attack and then why sasuke could dodge. Because haku was tired at that point. My statements here have NO inconsistencies. Yours does. You are ignoring haku saying sasuke and naruto were both going in slow motion to him. My explanation takes into account everything. Your's relies on ignoring information.

That is literally the most standard definition of a logical argument vs a non logical. The logical one will take in all information and present a possible answer that fits all information. A non logical one will discard the parts they don't care about.

And until you crack open a dictionary and show me where transport is synonymous with "without free will" then you will have a point. NOTHING about the word choice implies that. I can *reflect* light off of mirrors all day at my *will*.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I am answering specifically your bold text...... The explanation I gave fits everything, why haku could attack and then why sasuke could dodge. Because haku was tired at that point. My statements here have NO inconsistencies. Yours does. You are ignoring haku saying sasuke and naruto were both going in slow motion to him. My explanation takes into account everything. Your's relies on ignoring information.



The explanation you gave is already countered. First, Haku wasn't tired, because according to Haku himself he was still maintaining his top speed when Sasuke managed to see and dodge his attacks. His own words in next page states: *"I need to end this quick, I can't maintain this speed for too long"* proves the fact that Haku was still maintaining "this" speed. Besides, Haku was never stated to have gotten tired at that point, nor was implied, but was said otherwise. 

Haku could've been referring to when he switches between mirror, he can see them going slow motion, and can take aim perfectly after getting to another mirror? How am I ignoring information when you just ignored the fact that Haku clearly stated that he was still maintaining his speed and wasn't stated to be tired anywhere. It's your speculation. What I said is supported by the proof that Sasuke could manage to react to and interrupt Haku's top speed, as clarified by Haku himself.

You can't do anything to change the fact that Sasuke was dodging Haku's full speed, and there's nothing which ever suggested that Haku got tired in any shape or form, and neither there is anything which counters that Haku himself stated he was maintaining the speed still at that point. Also the fact that in manga their fight barely lasted compared to anime, it was faster, how can Haku get tired in 1 minute or so?



> That is literally the most standard definition of a logical argument vs a non logical. The logical one will take in all information and present a possible answer that fits all information. A non logical one will discard the parts they don't care about.



How is your logical when

-You ignore the fact that Haku clarified that he was moving at his best and was still maintaining that speed

-The fact that Sasuke dodged and reacted to and managed to see Haku's top speed.

-The fact that Haku admitted that he couldn't blitz Sasuke.

-The fact that Haku's explanation for his mirrors could've meant anything, and seems to be more in my favor than yours.

So, yeah, answer these.

*"How did Sasuke manage to counter/dodge and see through movements of Haku who was clearly stated to be maintaining his speed and wasn't tired at all + the fact that Haku himself admitted he couldn't blitz Sasuke anymore.*


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Vice said:


> Kankuro and Temari were chunin and clearly beat them no difficulty.




If this is Chuunin level, Jounins scare me. Because apparently Temari would destroy Zabuza given the 50 meter distance using this jutsu alone.

Zabuza has no feats nor canon facts to manage to defeat a genjutsu from Tayuya.

And stop wanking ranks.

Sakura is a chuunin and is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shizune and half the other jounins and special jounins.
Naruto was a genin against his fight with Tayuya, lol.
Gaara was a genin during CE.
Might Gai is a Jounin but has access to 8th gate and can destroy kages out there.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> The explanation you gave is already countered. First, Haku wasn't tired, because according to Haku himself he was still maintaining his top speed when Sasuke managed to see and dodge his attacks. His own words in next page states: *"I need to end this quick, I can't maintain this speed for too long"* proves the fact that Haku was still maintaining "this" speed. Besides, Haku was never stated to have gotten tired at that point, nor was implied, but was said otherwise.
> 
> Haku could've been referring to when he switches between mirror, he can see them going slow motion, and can take aim perfectly after getting to another mirror? How am I ignoring information when you just ignored the fact that Haku clearly stated that he was still maintaining his speed and wasn't stated to be tired anywhere. It's your speculation. What I said is supported by the proof that Sasuke could manage to react to and interrupt Haku's top speed, as clarified by Haku himself.
> 
> ...




Saying "I cannot maintain this speed" is NOT the same as being at TOP speed when you say it. I can be running at half my max sprinting speed and say I cannot maintain this speed. That never implies I am at my fastest. There is absolutely no reason to believe Haku was still at top speed a lot of reasons not to. Not the least of which is sasuke being able to dodge. Thats the strongest indicator.

And haku get tired in one minute because of relativity. I already explained this.

Couldn't blitz sasuke ANYMORE. His opportunity had passed.

Now. For the final time. My explanation encompasses everything and doesn't generate any contradictions. Your's does. If you want to refine your argument to remove your contradictions feel free. But you have to convince ME at this point. I have shot down all of your points logically. You have to present your case now not the other way around.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 25, 2015)

Vice said:


> Shikamaru broke Tayuya's genjutsu as well, and his genjutsu rating is exactly the same as Zabuza's.



 Zabuza has nothing in his arsenal that solely requires spiritual energy.

 Hell, Tayuya's genjutsu has only been canonically countered by techniques that specialize in Yin-Release.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Saying "I cannot maintain this speed" is NOT the same as being at TOP speed when you say it. I can be running at half my max sprinting speed and say I cannot maintain this speed. That never implies I am at my fastest. There is absolutely no reason to believe Haku was still at top speed a lot of reasons not to. Not the least of which is sasuke being able to dodge. Thats the strongest indicator.



There's nothing suggests that Haku wasn't at top. He said I can't maintain this speed for a very long time suggests that he was maintaining this speed for a while now. The fact that Haku himself admitted that he couldn't attack Sasuke head on is there too. You need to stop going with speculation, you're twisting and trying your best to find double meaning in his words for no reason.

Haku clearly stated he can't maintain this speed, and implied that he was maintaining it at that point, and this was right after Haku's speedy blows which you wank so much. What you are stating has no proof and is not backed up by any canon fact, either show me proof, or don't talk.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that Haku was even a bit tired at all. After the first attack, which took Sasuke by surprise, he was able to see through and dodge every single manual attack Haku threw at him. There's nothing which proves that Haku was tired or slowed down, there's something which implies that he wasn't (implies very, very, very strongly) and there's nothing which changes the fact that Sasuke could keep up with and dodge Haku's attacks and Haku himself stating that he can't blitz Sasuke at all.

I am getting tired of your half-assed speculation which is solely based on one statement given by Haku which could've meant ANYTHING. The fight lasted what seemed like 1-2 minutes and Haku was never stated to be tired in any shape or form and the fact that Haku himself stated that he is still maintaining "this" speed.

Stop it, honestly, everyone here agrees to the fact that Haku can't move at light speed, that's just retarded and baseless assumption. All you've been doing this entire thread is assume, to be honest, all basing on a single statement which could've or could've not mean what you said.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> There's nothing suggests that Haku wasn't at top. He said I can't maintain this speed for a very long time suggests that he was maintaining this speed for a while now. The fact that Haku himself admitted that he couldn't attack Sasuke head on is there too. You need to stop going with speculation, you're twisting and trying your best to find double meaning in his words for no reason.
> 
> Haku clearly stated he can't maintain this speed, and implied that he was maintaining it at that point, and this was right after Haku's speedy blows which you wank so much. What you are stating has no proof and is not backed up by any canon fact, either show me proof, or don't talk.
> 
> ...



So I will tell you what. How about we have this conversation but you are not allowed to use the word IMPLIED at all. You claim I speculate but thats your favorite word by far. I tell you that a flat sentence doesn't mean something, you say it implies it but I am the one speculating.

And FINALLY AGAIN. MY ARGUMENT IS CONSISTENT AND LOGICAL. YOUR'S IS NOT. YOU HAVE TO CONVINCE ME NOW NOT THE OTHER WAY.


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## Vice (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Shikamaru didn't break it, you silly, Shikamaru used his shadow to break his finger to break the illusion. It's called inflicting pain to yourself to overcome the illusion, and he only managed to do that because he prepared the shadow in advance and used it on himself. Once you're in genjutsu, you loose the control over your body and chakra, however Shikamaru broke his finger beforehand and the pain caused the illusion to break.
> 
> Zabuza here has no intel on Tayuya's jutsu as stated by the OP, he isn't preparing in advance to break the gen.



So Shikamaru didn't break it, he just broke it? Is that your argument?

Inflicting pain to break out of a genjutsu is like ninja 101.



Shanal said:


> If this is Chuunin level, Jounins scare me. Because apparently Temari would destroy Zabuza given the 50 meter distance using this jutsu alone.



So it's either chunin-level and they lost or it's jonin-level and they lost. Either way, they still lost.



> Zabuza has no feats nor canon facts to manage to defeat a genjutsu from Tayuya.



So where's the feats or canon facts that shows Tayuya's genjutsu defeats jonins when a chunin broke it? I'll wait patiently for it, thanks.



> And stop wanking ranks.
> 
> Sakura is a chuunin and is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shizune and half the other jounins and special jounins.
> Naruto was a genin against his fight with Tayuya, lol.
> ...



And I hate this fucking argument. Everyone knows the difference between chunin-LEVEL and chunin-RANK and yet pretend they don't have a fucking clue what I'm talking about and throw up Naruto and Sasuke being genin-rank like it means anything.

When I say chunin, I mean the level of strength a chunin is generally on. I don't give a flying fuck about your ranks mean nothing bullshit. This argument only matters to a handful of guys and relies on me pretending that I'm obsessed with the titles and nothing more.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> So I will tell you what. How about we have this conversation but you are not allowed to use the word IMPLIED at all. You claim I speculate but thats your favorite word by far. I tell you that a flat sentence doesn't mean something, you say it implies it and I am speculating.


It doesn't imply, sorry, it proves the fact that Haku wasn't tired at all. He clearly stated that he was still maintaining this speed and it has been like 1 minute since their fight started and right after the first few blows, Sasuke managed to react to all the attacks Haku threw at him according to Haku himself. There's nothing which contradicts my statement and the fact that Haku himself stated that he was maintaining "this" speed and the fact he seemed to be shitting his pants over how fast Sasuke seemed alone proves the point.

What you claim is speculation because Haku himself stated in his words that his mirrors transport him via reflection, that by no means proves that Haku moved on his own free will but rather implies that Haku was being teleported from mirrors to mirrors.

The fact that there's nothing to imply that Haku got even a bit tired while Haku's own statement proves that he was maintaining "this" speed for a while now and the fact that right after he said he couldn't blitz Sasuke is all I need to say that he doesn't move at light speed. And everyone do agree to it.



Vice said:


> So Shikamaru didn't break it, he just broke it? Is that your argument?
> 
> Inflicting pain to break out of a genjutsu is like ninja 101.



Breaking genjutsu via actual genjutsu skills is doing the "release" jutsu Sakura used against Kabuto's genjutsu. Even a normal person can get out of illusion if pain is inflicted upon his body while genned, Shikamaru knew that and prepared in advance while the intel Zabuza has is none.

Shikamaru couldn't have broke it otherwise.



> So it's either chunin-level and they lost or it's jonin-level and they lost. Either way, they still lost.
> 
> 
> 
> So where's the feats or canon facts that shows Tayuya's genjutsu defeats jonins when a chunin broke it? I'll wait patiently for it, thanks.



Because a chuunin broke it after getting intel on Tayuya and preparing in advance to hurt himself, something Zabuza is incapable of since he has no knowledge over Tayuya or any of S4 while Tayuya's opening move is most likely supposed to be a genjutsu. Zabuza lost to a sharingan-less Kakashi in zero visibility mist after dogs 

No wait, Zabuza lost to bunch of dogs.



> And I hate this fucking argument. Everyone knows the difference between chunin-LEVEL and chunin-RANK and yet pretend they don't have a fucking clue what I'm talking about and throw up Naruto and Sasuke being genin-rank like it means anything.
> 
> When I say chunin-level, I mean the level of strength a chunin is generally on. I don't give a flying fuck about your ranks mean nothing bullshit. This argument only matters to a handful of guys and relies on me pretending that I'm obsessed with the titles and nothing more.



If you know the difference so well then why you call Genma a special jounin level when its stated that he was in the same squad as Minato himself and is an elite guard of bloody Hokage and the fact that S4 completely destroyed him along with the other guy and didn't get scratched from the fight.

Plus the fact that Chouji with 100x strength is not Chuunin-level and neither is Temari with her overpowered wind which could have destroyed Zabuza in and out with zero difficulty.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> It doesn't imply, sorry, it proves the fact that Haku wasn't tired at all. He clearly stated that he was still maintaining this speed and it has been like 1 minute since their fight started and right after the first few blows, Sasuke managed to react to all the attacks Haku threw at him according to Haku himself. There's nothing which contradicts my statement and the fact that Haku himself stated that he was maintaining "this" speed and the fact he seemed to be shitting his pants over how fast Sasuke seemed alone proves the point.
> 
> What you claim is speculation because Haku himself stated in his words that his mirrors transport him via reflection, that by no means proves that Haku moved on his own free will but rather implies that Haku was being teleported from mirrors to mirrors.
> 
> ...



I am not going to answer this comment. I will give you a chance to fix it to a logical argument because it isn't one right now. I keep telling you please don't let me down and that's all you are doing. You went from injecting and theorizing your own meaning to words another character said
and then went on to state, wait no, I am not theorizing I KNOW thats what he meant.
Me stating that you cannot read extra meaning into their words is the opposite of speculating. IMPLYING that you have been speculating this whole time (see what I did there, used your favorite word in case you missed it).

And yet again I will tell you. At this point poking holes in my argument doesn't even work because mine is more solid than yours. First you have to explain everything logically and consistently in a way that doesn't generate contradictions in the story. Before you can even say my reasoning is bad you have to correct your own basically.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 25, 2015)

Vice said:


> And they've demonstrated that they're at this level by losing to the only legitimate jonin they've ever fought, struggling against special jonin and losing to chunin.
> 
> Clearly jonin level.



 Kidoumaru canonically analyzed Neji's techniques and casually bypassed his Taijutsu which was considered to be beyond what Jounin's were capable of despite Neji's Gentle Fist's ability to disrupt chakra and he further displayed the ability of having a technique that busts through dozens of trees and was literally unavoidable by SRA Neji who has stats within Wave Arc Kakashi's caliber. Even Base Kidoumaru alone, collectively, handled each of the Genin with relative ease and employed traps that were undetectable.

 Sakon, was even stated to be even stronger than that and has another being who's physicality, according to the Databook is on par with him. Sakon was also stated to be even stronger than Kidioumaru, managed to evade Garouga point-blank, effortlessly outclassed CS 2T Sasuke, effortlessly handled Kiba's Garouga which greatly enhances his speed which is within the 4 speed tier, and evaded Kiba's technique which is substantially faster than his own Garouga and even evaded the Shockwaves released from it.

 I'd go in-depth with Jirobo and Tayuya, but I'm running out of time.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> I am not going to answer this comment. I will give you a chance to fix it to a logical argument because it isn't one right now. I keep telling you please don't let me down and that's all you are doing. You went from injecting and theorizing your own meaning to words another character said
> and then went on to state, wait no, I am not theorizing I KNOW thats what he meant.
> Me stating that you cannot read extra meaning into their words is the opposite of speculating. IMPLYING that you have been speculating this whole time (see what I did there, used your favorite word in case you missed it).



Don't answer, I don't care, you're spam stating assumptions which have nothing to do with actual facts, you deny Haku's own statements and the fact that Sasuke could dodge him and just assume he was tired even though nothing implies that he was. 

You know that's what he meant, keep knowing, it isn't going to become truth without a feat to back it up. Sasuke dodged and managed to see every single attack Haku did after first two or so alone proves the fact that he isn't moving at light speed while attacking. I ain't gonna bother with ya, you're just stating random bullshit and denying straight up manga logic. Haku said mirrors transport him, that alone *proves* that he isn't moving on his own will, since using the word "transporting me" is not what moving at your own will means. And the fact that Sasuke dodged Haku after first 10 seconds of battle is just an extra.

You can just hush it and live in your own world of assumptions based on nothing, people agree with me, manga agrees with me, so far everything is in favor with me. Kishimoto himself stated that Haku can only move at light speed while switching between mirrors is not even needed to prove my point.

I don't need to stay high in your eyes, you've already fallen to "stupid" category in my list. Good day.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Actually, there's no secret. Kishimoto made Haku state he has been maintaining this speed. Kishimoto had Sasuke dodge and avoid Haku's move. Kishimoto made Haku straight up claim he can't blitz Sasuke. And Kishimoto made Haku use words like "transport via reflection" rather than actually stating he moves at speed of light.
> 
> I don't need to feel like a winner. I won it already. You can go on spouting personal insult in fury and rage, I don't care  It just tells me how salty you are and how much control you have over your emotions, and how much you get worked up on a manga thread.
> 
> Either way, it's not only the fact that Kishimoto clearly made the characters state what they did. Kishimoto himself stated that Haku does it that way. There's a reason as to why people agree with me rather than you here.




So you lost on all logic basis. So you turn back to your book that again has contradictions with the manga. And fallback on the people who have not at all vocalized their support of you. Again. Want me to start linking dozens of threads from THIS website about THIS topic?

You have literally taken flat statements and applied PARAGRAPHS of your own meaning to make it work. Maintain speed never implies top speed. it would have to say I cannot maintain my stop speed any longer.

Second nowhere in the word transport does it imply loss of will. Ask literally anybody that or open a dictionary. Which you still have not shown me the definition that states that.

See the thing is. I tell you the ball is in your court, and you have to make a convincing argument and that's where the conversation stops. You are fine trying to say I am wrong. But when you have to actually construct your own reasoning it fails. So you made me work twice as hard as you to prove a point then want to walk away when you can't win any longer.


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## Sorin (Nov 25, 2015)

This thread still opened?


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

I think I've finally wrapped it up.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> So you lost on all logic basis. So you turn back to your book that again has contradictions with the manga. And fallback on the people who have not at all vocalized their support of you. Again. Want me to start linking dozens of threads from THIS website about THIS topic?
> 
> You have literally taken flat statements and applied PARAGRAPHS of your own meaning to make it work. Maintain speed never implies top speed. it would have to say I cannot maintain my stop speed any longer.
> 
> Second nowhere in the word transport does it imply loss of will. Ask literally anybody that or open a dictionary. Which you still have not shown me the definition that states that.



I am not answering the spam ones, it has nothing to do with thread 

You're once again loosing your temper and going on spamming crap. There's nothing which suggests that Haku got any slower after the first 10 seconds of technique. Your assumption.

Haku said his mirrors transport him via reflection, that implies that he isn't doing it on his own free will, and if he is, why did Sasuke manage to dodge his attacks right after the first two? As kindly stated by Haku who said he has been dodging all of them at critical moments.

Can you stop making assumptions already, you have no proof of anything and the fact that Sasuke dodged Haku's attacks proves the fact that he isn't moving at light speed. There's nothing which hints Haku got any slower at all, so saying he did is an assumption with no proof, in fact, Haku said Sasuke saw all his attacks after the second attack, which was like 10 seconds later.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> I am not answering the spam ones, it has nothing to do with thread
> 
> You're once again loosing your temper and going on spamming crap. There's nothing which suggests that Haku got any slower after the first 10 seconds of technique. Your assumption.
> 
> ...



At this point you are literally damaging your argument. All I am doing is saying the statements made do not coincide with what you are saying. Nothing in the statement "I cannot maintain this speed" implied what speed it is. You are literally using a god of the gaps argument right now. We don't know so it must be this. And it's in direct contradiction to things that happened earlier. such as Haku saying they are moving much slower perceptually to him.

And again you try to ignore the most pertinent part of my argument "See the thing is. I tell you the ball is in your court, and you have to make a convincing argument and that's where the conversation stops. You are fine trying to say I am wrong. But when you have to actually construct your own reasoning it fails. So you made me work twice as hard as you to prove a point then want to walk away when you can't win any longer"

So again. My argument is logical and consistent with the whole story. Your's is not and requires you to fill in literally paragraphs of your own meaning and still doesn't work.


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## Amol (Nov 25, 2015)

Zabuza blitzes and cuts heads off sound fodders .
Haku stands there and looks pretty.
Now can we close this thread?


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> At this point you are literally damaging your argument. All I am doing is saying the statements made do not coincide with what you are saying. Nothing in the statement "I cannot maintain this speed" implied what speed it is. You are literally using a god of the gaps argument right now. We don't know so it must be this. And it's in direct contradiction to things that happened earlier. such as Haku saying they are moving much slower perceptually to him.



So apparently our dear Haku gets much much much much much slower than his original speed after 10 seconds of activating it. Haku's statement can go to garbage by the fact that that what he said doesn't imply that he can move at his own free will while attacking, he said "mirrors transport me via reflection" which suggests switching mirrors. Either way, Sasuke still dodged and say Haku coming, and nothing suggests or proves that Haku got any slower. Haku said he is maintaining "this" speed right after talking about how "this" speed allows him to blitz Sasuke and Naruto (which was during the entire talk about transportation)



> So again. My argument is logical and consistent with the whole story. Your's is not and requires you to fill in literally paragraphs of your own meaning and still doesn't work.



Your argument is solely based on the fact that Haku said he is transported by mirrors at light speed. There's nothing which suggests or proves that Haku can attack while moving at such a high speed at all, and the fact that Sasuke himself started to dodge his attacks after 10 seconds of battle is all one needs to prove that he, as a matter of fact, can't move and attack at that speed.

-snip-


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> So apparently our dear Haku gets much much much much much slower than his original speed after 10 seconds of activating it. Haku's statement can go to garbage by the fact that that what he said doesn't imply that he can move at his own free will while attacking, he said "mirrors transport me via reflection" which suggests switching mirrors. Either way, Sasuke still dodged and say Haku coming, and nothing suggests or proves that Haku got any slower. Haku said he is maintaining "this" speed right after talking about how "this" speed allows him to blitz Sasuke and Naruto (which was during the entire talk about transportation)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




See now we can't have a LOGICAL conversation if you can ignore any parts that don't fit your story. *FOR THE FINAL TIME SHOW ME A DEFINITION FOR TRANSPORT THAT SAYS NO FREE WILL* And again, at near light speed that 10 seconds could have been 10 hours thats NOT speculating. That's a property of physics.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> See now we can't have a LOGICAL conversation if you can ignore any parts that don't fit your story. *FOR THE FINAL TIME SHOW ME A DEFINITION FOR TRANSPORT THAT SAYS NO FREE WILL* And again, at near light speed that 10 seconds could have been 10 hours thats NOT speculating. That's a property of physics.



According to Oxford, the definition of transport is "take or carry", thus, the mirrors are carrying/taking Haku from one mirror to another via reflection.

Errr, Haku kind of just went from one mirror to another like four or five times while trying to attack Naruto and Sasuke manually (rather than throwing needles) , that is not 10 hours of non-stop moving, to be honest, in fact, Haku only moved for like 0.0000(some numbers) seconds if we go by how much distance he was shown covering WHILE MANUALLY ATTACKING THEM. 

Either way, your argument is still garbage and only has speculation. Haku was never stated to be tired or was shown to be tired, yet Sasuke managed to dodge him after the first two attacks. I am not really putting much effort into my post now, you've lost it long ago, I am just replying to stupid things you've been saying since the start. 

By the way, I am the guy who said post-skip Neji along with Shikamaru and another fodder K11 can rek Sasuke (MS restricted to no amaterasu and only skeleton susano), so yeaaah... not really that much of a fanboy of Sasuke, funny how you assume that due to my picture. Funny how you use the word "hero": though, and how you bring it up here for no reason.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Also errr, since he's using mirror's reflection? How would he get "tired" physically again... it takes up chakra, just like Haku said, however he was nowhere near out of chakra. Haku never once said it physically worns him out, he said it takes up chakra to maintain this technique.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> According to Oxford, the definition of transport is "take or carry", thus, the mirrors are carrying/taking Haku from one mirror to another via reflection.
> 
> Errr, Haku kind of just went from one mirror to another like four or five times while trying to attack Naruto and Sasuke manually (rather than throwing needles) , that is not 10 hours of non-stop moving, to be honest, in fact, Haku only moved for like 0.0000(some numbers) seconds if we go by how much distance he was shown covering WHILE MANUALLY ATTACKING THEM.
> 
> ...




It's not for no reason. That's been the whole basis for your argument, in fact in general you base your posts around Sasuke, even when he is not the main topic. But I am done. I will let anyone else judge this if they want to.

Who said anything about physical exhaustion, he is using chakra to propel himself through the mirrors. Running low on chakra is the same as physical fatigue if you are using chakra to move.

And finally. You have made it abundantly clear you don't understand relativity at all since you have refused to even talk about the time dilation effect that explains why haku is tired, or why a bunch of attacks happened simultaneously in the beginning. You clearly don't know about this topic.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> It's not for no reason. That's been the whole basis for your argument, in fact in general you base your posts around Sasuke, even when he is not the main topic. But I am done. I will let anyone else judge this if they want to.



How is Sasuke not a part of this topic when Haku's entire blitz is involved with attacking Sasuke and his only feats have been in his fight against Sasuke and the fact that Sasuke could dodge his attacks? That's like saying it has nothing to do with Kakashi, when people are trying to claim that Zabuza is good because he fought and troubled Kakashi a little.

And he wasn't out of chakra after 10 seconds, he wasn't even low on chakra, nothing suggests or proves that at all.

I explained why bunch of attacks happened during the start. Haku didn't attack them manually, he switched the mirrors and threw needles, I did agree he moved at speed of light while switching the mirrors because that's what he does, however needles are not close ranged attacks and Haku only used them after he got from one mirror to another.

Either way, your argument is still pure speculation ignoring the fact that Haku was spam being dodged and seen even though he was never stated to be and neither implied to be out of chakra at all. Hell, Haku himself stated that he had been maintaining the speed.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> How is Sasuke not a part of this topic when Haku's entire blitz is involved with attacking Sasuke and his only feats have been in his fight against Sasuke and the fact that Sasuke could dodge his attacks? That's like saying it has nothing to do with Kakashi, when people are trying to claim that Zabuza is good because he fought and troubled Kakashi a little.
> 
> And he wasn't out of chakra after 10 seconds, he wasn't even low on chakra, nothing suggests or proves that at all.



No. Nothing suggests of proves he was full on chakra. The fact that he was slowing down indicates he was running low. You keep trying to use lack of information as information. They are not the same things. Stop "god of the gaps"ing the arguments.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> No. Nothing suggests of proves he was full on chakra. The fact that he was slowing down indicates he was running low. You keep trying to use lack of information as information. They are not the same things. Stop "god of the gaps"ing the arguments.


Nothing suggests that he couldn't maintain his top speed if he wasn't at full, he only stated he can't maintain the technique if he's out of chakra. He was never slowing down, Sasuke was taken by surprise by first attack and managed to see and dodge Haku's attacks later on.

Haku himself stated that Sasuke's eyes are the ones adjusting on Haku's speed, not that his speed was the one lowering.

What you're saying is pure assumption with no proof to back it up, again, also according to Oxford, transport does means carrying something 

You are trying to use the lack of information as information here, you're the one claiming that Haku gets slower even though nothing suggests he got slower. Haku himself stated he had been maintaining his speed. 

By the way, just took another look.



Not only it states here that Haku was trying to aim for vitals at this point, but also that Haku said Sasuke was adjusting to HIS speed, not that his speed was slowing down.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Nothing suggests that he couldn't maintain his top speed if he wasn't at full, he only stated he can't maintain the technique if he's out of chakra. He was never slowing down, Sasuke was taken by surprise by first attack and managed to see and dodge Haku's attacks later on.
> 
> Haku himself stated that Sasuke's eyes are the ones adjusting on Haku's speed, not that his speed was the one lowering.
> 
> ...



Then it's up to you to explain the panel I linked. No explanation you give short of light speed combat works. So your argument still has a contradiction. Mine doesn't. And even carry does not actually imply against will. It CAN but doesn't by default. Afterall I can always carry my own weight. Or carry my fat ass over to the fridge. So you are still reading into the word.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Then it's up to you to explain the panel I linked. No explanation you give short of light speed combat works. So your argument still has a contradiction. Mine doesn't. And even carry does not actually imply against will. It CAN but doesn't by default. So you are still reading into the word.



Your argument is nothing, I don't even see it there. You claim Haku moves at light speed and can see Naruto and Sasuke in slow motion due to relativity, I agreed, but the fact remains that he is "transported" by the "reflection" and can only switch between mirrors at speed of light. 

Haku's words list:

*"There's a limit to how long I can keep up this speed."*

Proves that according to Haku his speed doesn't decrease gradually but instead it is lowered after a limit, and that limit hasn't come yet.

*"I am aiming for vitals... yet this kid is keep dodging it at last second. He is slowly adjusting to my speed... this kid can see something."*

Proves the fact that Haku was trying to kill them, or at least put them out of the game for a while by aiming for critical areas and the fact that Haku's speed wasn't the one decreasing, but Sasuke's eyes were the one adjusting to Haku's speed and matching his level.

*"Impressive, he keeps dodging my attacks at critical moments."*

This was right after Haku's second attack, states that Sasuke managed to see Haku's attacks pretty well right a while after fight started.

Everything not only suggests but proves the fact that Haku can't move and attack at light speed, but can only switch between mirrors at that speed. oh and:

*Even though Sasuke could see Haku and dodge him, Sasuke still couldn't see Haku when he was switching between mirrors proves the fact that both speeds are different.*

Haku is transported from mirrors to mirrors via reflection, Haku said it himself, learn what transport means. "carry" or "taken"


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Your argument is nothing, I don't even see it there. You claim Haku moves at light speed and can see Naruto and Sasuke in slow motion due to relativity, I agreed, but the fact remains that he is "transported" by the "reflection" and can only switch between mirrors at speed of light.
> 
> Haku's words list:
> 
> ...



Again none of that implied a lack of free will. If I was lighter I could have someone carry me. It seems the whole point of this part of the conversation is to say he can only travel from one mirror to another. I know that. If that is not what you are saying than I don't even get the point of this statement. Even then it doesn't make sense because you linked an image of him leaping out of a mirror to attack someone.

And none of that implies haku wasn't slowing down. The problem is. Again. My argument is sound and makes sense. REMOVING MY ARGUMENT makes it not make sense. Since you still haven't explained that opening panel.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> Again none of that implied a lack of free will. If I was lighter I could have someone carry me. It seems the whole point of this part of the conversation is to say he can only travel from one mirror to another. I know that. If that is not what you are saying than I don't even get the point of this statement. Even then it doesn't make sense because you linked an image of him leaping out of a mirror to attack someone.
> 
> And none of that implies haku wasn't slowing down. The problem is. Again. My argument is sound and makes sense. REMOVING MY ARGUMENT makes it not make sense. Since you still haven't explained that opening panel.



See, again you ignore the rest and only talk about one thing you found funny. Typical. Also, it doesn't imply Haku wasn't slowing down, it *proves that Haku wasn't slowing down.*

Haku said that after a limit, his speed decreases, not gradually, and that limit hasn't come yet. A solid proof you can't counter.

Haku said Sasuke's eyes are the one adjusting to HIS speed, not that he was getting slower.

Obviously the Haku switches mirror when he wants to, it isn't against his will, however Haku can't switch paths while doing so and neither can he react and attack someone while middle of switching mirrors, and neither he is moving at his own free will, he just chooses the mirror he wants to go to and the reflection transports him (trying to put it in easiest way), Haku basically teleports from one mirror to another, he does it when he wants to, however he is not attacking while doing so since he has no control over his body in the middle of path. He is being carried by the mirror's reflection, as he said so himself.

And Haku wasn't slowing down, nothing proves or suggests that. Haku said he would slow down after a limit and that Sasuke was catching up to his speed (Sasuke's eyes were). Sasuke while could see Haku's movement speed while attacking, he couldn't see Haku's speed while simply switching mirrors proves the difference.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> See, again you ignore the rest and only talk about one thing you found funny. Typical. Also, it doesn't imply Haku wasn't slowing down, it *proves that Haku wasn't slowing down.*
> 
> Haku said that after a limit, his speed decreases, not gradually, and that limit hasn't come yet. A solid proof you can't counter.
> 
> ...



You are missing an important point. I am not ignoring what you are saying you are ignoring what I am saying. My explanation is logically consistent the whole way through. Your's isn't.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> You are missing an important point. I am not ignoring what you are saying you are ignoring what I am saying. My explanation is logically consistent the whole way through. Your's isn't.



Your explanation is solely based on the fact that Haku said his mirrors transport him via reflection, which I initially agree to, but that doesn't mean he has any control over his body or the path while doing so, as stated by Haku himself, the mirrors' reflection carries him from one to another, he just chooses the destination and he's there.

However, your explanation says that Haku can move while having control over his body and attack in mid-path too, which has no proof to base on. Haku's speed was never stated to be decreasing and his own words proves the fact that his speed remains the same till a certain limit.

Haku states that Sasuke is the one adjusting to his speed, not that he is slowing down.

Haku isn't light speed unless he's switching between mirrors only, conclusion.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Your explanation is solely based on the fact that Haku said his mirrors transport him via reflection, which I initially agree to, but that doesn't mean he has any control over his body or the path while doing so, as stated by Haku himself, the mirrors' reflection carries him from one to another, he just chooses the destination and he's there.
> 
> However, your explanation says that Haku can move while having control over his body and attack in mid-path too, which has no proof to base on. Haku's speed was never stated to be decreasing and his own words proves the fact that his speed remains the same till a certain limit.
> 
> ...




There was never any proof by any definition of the word that haku's speed never decreased. You keep implying (aka speculating that) from things that make a lot more sense the way I explained them. And again. My explanation doesn't have logical inconsistencies.

Also. I never once disagreed with you and said haku can change his path mid mirror or anything like that. Again. You don't understand relativity. He doesn't need to change his path. At light speed you are not moving, he pulls out a needle, puts it in from of him at an angle so he knows where it will hit you as he passes to the other mirror.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> There was never any proof by any definition of the word that haku's speed never decreased. You keep implying (aka speculating that) from things that make a lot more sense the way I explained them. And again. My explanation doesn't have logical inconsistencies.



You keep saying that yet fail to defy that what you are trying to explain is nothing different from how I defined your explanation earlier 

Anyway, Haku clearly stated he can maintain the speed till a limit, I have been through 3 more Haku speed related and vs threads in past on my alts, all of them were closed after everyone agreed to the fact that Haku himself admitted he wasn't slowing down at all. You're too stubborn to notice and accept direct words coming from the user. 

Haku says his speed is maintained till a certain limit. This alone proves that your assumption of his speed decreasing gradually is false and actually contradicted by manga. If you can't accept that, stop arguing. Manga facts > your opinion and speculation.

Haku saying this is as much of a fact as Haku saying his mirrors transport him via reflection.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> You keep saying that yet fail to defy that what you are trying to explain is nothing different from how I defined your explanation earlier
> 
> Anyway, Haku clearly stated he can maintain the speed till a limit, I have been through 3 more Haku speed related and vs threads in past on my alts, all of them were closed after everyone agreed to the fact that Haku himself admitted he wasn't slowing down at all. You're too stubborn to notice and accept direct words coming from the user.
> 
> ...



He never said any of that. You keep reading mountains of your own opinions into stuff. He said he could not maintain the speed he was at. And that sasuke was adapting to the speed he was at. Neither of those imply top speed. Not even a tiny bit.

And again avoid all topics relating to relativity. The thing that ties all of this together.


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## Shanal (Nov 25, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> He never said any of that. You keep reading mountains of your own opinions into stuff. He said he could not maintain the speed he was at. And that sasuke was adapting to the speed he was at. Neither of those imply top speed. Not even a tiny bit.
> 
> And again avoid all topics relating to relativity. The thing that ties all of this together.





Here, Haku stated that there's a limit to how long he can maintain this speed, proving that his speed doesn't decrease gradually but rather it goes down after a limit. It's a legit fact ,either accept it or give up on argument.

You need to first prove how Haku's attacks were dodged while attacking but he couldn't be seen while switching mirrors. I already agreed to him moving at speed of light only while switching mirrors, however if he wants to go out, attack someone and then get into the mirror, he'd need to do it manually himself. Haku obviously can't react to anything or attack the ones inside the dome while switching mirrors, if he could, they'd be dead. While Sasuke could see Haku's movements while attacking them, he couldn't see him switching the mirrors. Haku himself stated his speed doesn't decreases till he hits a certain limit.


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## Skywalker (Nov 25, 2015)

Sound Four get wrecked without Kimimaro, as per usual.

The unwarranted wank these four get is absurd.


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Nov 25, 2015)

Shanal said:


> Here, Haku stated that there's a limit to how long he can maintain this speed, proving that his speed doesn't decrease gradually but rather it goes down after a limit. It's a legit fact ,either accept it or give up on argument.
> 
> You need to first prove how Haku's attacks were dodged while attacking but he couldn't be seen while switching mirrors. I already agreed to him moving at speed of light only while switching mirrors, however if he wants to go out, attack someone and then get into the mirror, he'd need to do it manually himself. Haku obviously can't react to anything or attack the ones inside the dome while switching mirrors, if he could, they'd be dead. While Sasuke could see Haku's movements while attacking them, he couldn't see him switching the mirrors. Haku himself stated his speed doesn't decreases till he hits a certain limit.



No I don't this panel proves my point. Lost a lot of chakra. Was weakening, a thing you said there was no sign of. And again. It does not say top speed it says I can maintain THIS speed. All while avoiding relativity. 

But I will relent and humor you because there is a very simple explanation why he can see him coming towards him but not switching mirrors it again has to do with relativity. At near light speed, if haku was not moving in a path almost directly towards sasuke the light would diffuse in such a way as to not form an image at all. But if coming straight towards sasuke, at a speed slightly lower than light the light would bounce off and still give an image.

Not that that is a valid question because you are asking about after Haku wore down enough for sasuke to see.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> No I don't this panel proves my point. Lost a lot of chakra. Was weakening, a thing you said there was no sign of. And again. It does not say top speed it says I can maintain THIS speed. All while avoiding relativity.
> 
> But I will relent and humor you because there is a very simple explanation why he can see him coming towards him but not switching mirrors it again has to do with relativity. At near light speed, if haku was not moving in a path almost directly towards sasuke the light would diffuse in such a way as to not form an image at all. But if coming straight towards sasuke, at a speed slightly lower than light the light would bounce off and still give an image.
> 
> Not that that is a valid question because you are asking about after Haku wore down enough for sasuke to see.



Ah, morning.

No, this panel doesn't prove your point. It says it takes a lot of chakra but his speed is lowered only after a limit. It was never stated it was weakened or not. Haku's words "There's a limit to this speed" proves that he wasn't at that limit yet. This speed is pretty much his original speed, there's nothing which suggests otherwise.

Also, I didn't reply for a while because I went out to read Haku's entire fight with Sasuke/Naruto and his moments in war, and it's pretty simple to be honest.

I am not avoiding relativity, you're just editing your posts too much that I can't even see full of it, and now that we're at it, the entire phenomenon of relativity actually proves you wrong. Haku states that his mirrors allow him to move via reflection from his mirrors, this suggests that he can move forward to wherever his mirrors are reflecting at that speed he brags about, which is furthered proved by the point that Haku used his mirrors to blitz Sai rather than attacking him head on (He entered a mirror, then jumped out of mirror towards Sai rather than just jumping at firsts place) and the fact that Haku used mirrors to blitz fodders in War rather than doing it manually. Everything considered, nothing here even proves the fact that Haku can't move at the "speed" he talks about if there's no mirror on other side, the mirrors just allow him to quickly hide after attacking and then reflect instantly again. 

This is not only proved by the fact that Haku used blitz via a single mirror rather than doing it manually in war but also the fact that Haku was by all means shown to be much faster than he was on foot while using mirror (Note, not reflecting between two mirrors, just being launched from one mirror towards enemy). Haku's words "This jutsu transports me from the reflection of mirror" by all means states that to move at the speed he moves, his speed isn't limited to only between two mirrors or so, but he can move at same speed as long as he is in one mirror pointing anywhere he wants to go. This is further proved by the fact that Haku used mirrors to get to Kakashi rather than using his own speed (which should be same as his mirrors speed, according to you, if he doesn't have more than one mirror on.)

This by all means proves that Gai and Lee managed to interrupt an infinite chakra Haku. And guess what? He doesn't moves at light speed to begin with. Haku's words were that Naruto and Sasuke were in slow motion to him, according to relativity, if Haku was actually moving at lights speed, Sasuke and Naruto would appear to be still and frozen to him rather than in "slow motion" if he's anywhere close to light and is moving at that tight space, Naruto and Sasuke would more or less be frozen and completely still in his eyes. Stating that they appear to be slow motion alone proves the fact that he isn't light speed at all. Even if one is moving at  much much much slower speed than that of light, the others would still appear to be slower (much slower) compared to him. 

Haku's entire explanation of his mirrors only proves the point that he doesn't require two mirrors to do the speedy blitz, and in fact only one mirrors propels him out at extremely high speed towards whatever its reflecting, this also explains how Haku was able to launch attacks towards the ground in a downward tilted direction rather than going straight towards the mirrors in some of the panel against Naruto and Sasuke.

Gai and Lee managing to see Haku's true speed and Sharingan tracking it is not a big deal at all if its not as high as speed of light.

Haku himself stated the following: This speed has a limit and it hasn't arrived yet. Sasuke is the one who is adjusting to HIS movements rather than his movements slowing down. Mirrors launches him at high speed towards whatever they are reflecting.

All things considered, after reading the entire Haku's appearance, the dude never even moved at Light's speed to begin with. There are so many things which would cause hilarious questions if he did, infinite mass, Haku being visible even a little though speed of light makes him 0 in length to others, him stating that they're in slow mo. rather than still, and whatnot.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Hyugadoobadoo said:


> *Where does it say "Only lowered after a limit?" This is my point. You are inserting literally a whole book of your own ideas. Stop. If it;'s not explicitly WRITTEN THAT WAY YOU CANNOT SAY IT. I AM DONE HUMORING THIS BS. Do it one more time and I will stop indulging you. The fact that I have to teach you physics just to have an argument with you is insane. It's like a child arguing with their teacher about a topic they haven't learned yet.*



His words clearly meant that he had been maintaining this speed and his speed only decreases after a limit. You claim it gradually decreases. Proof?


> *Except up until THIS post you have agreed with me the entire way that he can only move like that in mirrors. Now you are changing your stance as soon as there is no other way to take the argument. And obviously he is faster using his mirrors but he can only go from one mirror to another at full speed. Again you have agreed with this point up until now. No changing stances mid argument.*



I said I just got back from rereading the manga scans, now that I am right about him not moving at light speed, you don't want to continue anymore with that claim? Don't speak then, kid, either answer the given logic, or don't. 




> *Again you are inserting mountain of your OWN OPINIONS. Not anything stated ANYWHERE and no speed comparisons to draw from between launching from one mirror and between 2. You are actually offending me by trying to have this conversation this way. This is not about whats logical to you this is about winning and I am getting sick of it.*



There is, Haku stated his mirror transports him via reflection. What does that mean? It means that his mirror propels him towards whatever they are reflecting. How does two mirrors have got to do anything with it, mind explaining,  Haku's own words clearly say that his mirrors transport him at high speed towards whatever they are reflecting, further proved by the fact that Haku used mirrors rather than moving manauly to blitz ( a single mirror) and the fact that Haku's speed coming out of a single mirror is much faster than him on his feet.



> *For the final time. Stop twisting words. He DID NOT SAY THIS. He said "I cannot maintain this speed much longer" this speed this speed
> this speed
> this speed
> this speed
> ...



I am not humoring you , you ignored 85% of my post and only talked about "this speed" Plus, you're once again loosing your cold. If you can't debate with a cool head and no spam, don't bother, it's annoying talking to an immature child.

Anyway, Haku stated things appear to be in slow mo for him, according to the phenomenon of relativity, even if you're moving at 100 m/s, things would appear in slow motion, in fact anyone moving would see things slower than anyone still (Even if the difference is little to none). If someone moves anywhere near the speed of light, to him, others would appear to be completely still, but in Haku's case that isn't the case.

You keep bragging about me ignoring relativity but when I finally answer to it, you yourself say "NO CHANGING SUBJECT, I WON'T REPLY TO IT YAY!"

Fun part. Haku's own explanation of his mirrors doesn't require two mirrors, but in fact only requires one mirror to be pointing towards wherever he wants to go, plus the fact that he wasted time creating one single mirror to blitz someone rather than doing it manually proves this. Plus the fact Haku attacked towards the ground in his fight against Sasuke/Naruto rather than moving towards a mirror in some panels also pretty much prove that he doesn't require to move between mirrors only. The fact that his speed is higher while propelled from a single mirror than manually is alone a proof.

Haku isn't light speed, period.


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

Fuck. Zabuza lops all their heads off because they're chunin who lost to chunin. 

Can we close this topic already?


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 26, 2015)

Vice said:


> Fuck. Zabuza lops all their heads off because they're chunin who lost to chunin.
> 
> Can we close this topic already?



 Three of the Sound Four actually defeated those "Chuunin" and thus, needed extra support whereas the strongest of the group with stats comparable to Wave Arc Kakashi admitted inferiority to one of the Sound Four.

 They're not Chuunin. Even Orochimaru's weaker subordinates were stated to be above Chuunin Level.


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## Bonly (Nov 26, 2015)

Could go either way depending on how well the sound four works together but I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and I'd go with them more times then not, they should overwhelm the duo sooner or later with all their abilities


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## Alex Payne (Nov 26, 2015)

Kabuto bothered to Edo Tensei Haku. Didn't bother with Sound 4. Zabuza soloes.


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

Kankuro, Temari, Neji and Choji were all soundly in the chunin tier and two of them beat their opponents no difficulty at all. One of those opponents was considered the strongest of the sound 4 and he got neg-diffed. By a chunin. They collectively, at their highest level, barely managed by a pair of exhausted special jonin, who are only jonin level in one or two areas. The only confirmed jonin they faced as a unit in the manga in Kimimaro they lost to without any proof he needed anything more than his base form to do it. Nothing in the Manga even remotely suggests they can handle a jonin level threat. 

They are chunins that lost to chunins. Just get over it.


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## Bonly (Nov 26, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kabuto bothered to Edo Tensei Haku. Didn't bother with Sound 4. Zabuza soloes.



Kabuto bothered to put the DNA of the sound four in himself and use their jutsu. Didn't bother with Haku. Sakon soloes


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Vice said:


> Kankuro, Temari, Neji and Choji were all soundly in the chunin tier and two of them beat their opponents no difficulty at all. One of those opponents was considered the strongest of the sound 4 and he got neg-diffed. By a chunin. They collectively, at their highest level, barely managed by a pair of exhausted special jonin, who are only jonin level in one or two areas. The only confirmed jonin they faced as a unit in the manga in Kimimaro they lost to without any proof he needed anything more than his base form to do it. Nothing in the Manga even remotely suggests they can handle a jonin level threat.
> 
> They are chunins that lost to chunins. Just get over it.



When did Zabuza clear out an entire forest again?

Chouji is 100x strength of his original self w/ pills

Neji was destroyed by Kidomaru and only won due to last minute trick.

If Temari's chuunin tier then Zabuza is obviously an academy student 

Either way, why are we even arguing about it. Either tell how Zabuza counters Tayuya's genjutsu and stops himself from dying before talking to anyone here, otherwise you're just making yourself look bad. Distance is 50 meters, he gets genned before he can "blitz" (which he can't, going by feats and databooks, btw)

Also, fun part is you keep talking about Shikamaru breaking Tayuya's gen when he didn't do it at all, and if he didn't have intel, he wouldn't have done it. You are just repeating yourself and making yourself look more stupid.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 26, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Kabuto bothered to put the DNA of the sound four in himself and use their jutsu. Didn't bother with Haku. Sakon soloes


Except S5 DNA and abilities were well researched and stored in Orochimaru's lab. And Kabuto went for Edo Tensei prep _after_ infusing himself with DNA cocktail. Multiple Edo Tensei had more powerful abilities worthy of stealing. Yet Kabuto went strictly to Orochimaru's research/Cursed Seal stuff. It isn't as simple as injecting DNA leftovers.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Or maybe you should stop accusing people of bias/hate just because they disagree with you.



I don't but when they keep saying one thing without answering my own statement and logic, I would accuse them of being biased. Vice has come here and said same thing over and over again about Zabuza.

How can Zabuza blitz from a distance of 50m with no feat at all?

What defense Zabuza has against genjutsu?

How is Zabuza instantly blitzing and killing the ones who have kept up with someone the same speed tier as him according to databooks?

When people just ignore the questions, and go on about "He wins cause he blitz and S4 died to chuunins who can clear out forests, but are chuunins nonetheless"

It gets hilarious.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 26, 2015)

People aren't really obliged to write tl;dr and post detailed reasoning. Especially when topic such as Sound 4/5 is concerned. It was done to death. Same arguments were used for years now. Like 5+ years not 1-2 even. We aren't getting any new info and people who are still interested aren't going to change their minds. Making just one Sound 5 Megathread might be a better option than multiple threads with irritated people posting same exact arguments in each.


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## Vice (Nov 26, 2015)

I did explain. Several times. You just don't listen.

I'm not going to waste time with a brick wall.


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## Shanal (Nov 26, 2015)

Vice said:


> I did explain. Several times. You just don't listen.
> 
> I'm not going to waste time with a brick wall.



You said that Zabuza breaks it because Shikamaru did like 6 times, but refused to explain how Zabuza prepared in advance to hurt himself in order to break the genjutsu without any intel?

You're the only wall here, bud, I can literally quote all the posts you posted related to it and only thing you'll get is "Shikamaru broke it, I don't care if he did it solely due to intel on Tayuya and by preparing in advance, but he did it, so Zabuza does it for no reason"


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