# Legend of Zelda vs LOTR



## Cygnus45 (Jan 20, 2013)

All the characters in each respective verse are united and pool their resources. Each side is given very basic knowledge and 6 months of prep.

How does this go?


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## Linkofone (Jan 20, 2013)

All the Links and Zeldas of Legend of Zelda? Give Smashballs for kicks?


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## Solrac (Jan 20, 2013)

So Eru Illuvatar vs. the Golden Goddesses basically?

I'm not an LotR expert, but from my experience of surfing on vs. board, wouldn't Link be strong against many LotR characters?


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## Nevermind (Jan 20, 2013)

Yeah, he would.

But Eru should probably take this for the LOTR side.


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## Solrac (Jan 20, 2013)

Nevermind said:


> Yeah, he would.
> 
> But Eru should probably take this for the LOTR side.



Not that I care if LoZ wins this or not nor do I disagree with you completely, but... I'm curious as to your reasoning for why you believe Eru would trump the LoZ-verse if the latter has the Golden Goddesses backing them up? 

Keep in mind the, the GG's created Hyrule, Termina, and the Sacred Realm at least. So it's possible that the GG's together could stalemate with Eru in my opinion.


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## Bender (Jan 21, 2013)

Eru harshly and easily murders the LOZ verse.


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## hammer (Jan 21, 2013)




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## Catalyst75 (Jan 21, 2013)

Pecola said:


> So Eru Illuvatar vs. the Golden Goddesses basically?
> 
> I'm not an LotR expert, but from my experience of surfing on vs. board, wouldn't Link be strong against many LotR characters?



"I am a servant of the Golden Ones, wielder of the Flames of the Goddesses.  The Dark Fire shall not avail you, flame of Udun!"

I suppose the Master Sword being Evil's Bane is what you are referring to, correct?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 21, 2013)

Being "evil's bane" is nice and all, but the amount of durability its hax use of cutting "evil" can ignore caps out at being able to harm Demise.

Who's probably sporting city level durability at best.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jan 21, 2013)

Lord of the Rings rapes.


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## hammer (Jan 21, 2013)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Lord of the Rings rapes.



the moon solos


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## Bender (Jan 21, 2013)

Catalyst75 said:


> "I am a servant of the Golden Ones, wielder of the Flames of the Goddesses.  The Dark Fire shall not avail you, flame of Udun!"


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## Linkofone (Jan 21, 2013)

I think the moon will be able to create a large enough impact? :B

Part of me is joking about this, I think...


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Jan 21, 2013)

Feats for the LotR's most powerful? I mean, they'd have to trump the Gods of creation in the LoZ-verse, so...


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## Solrac (Jan 21, 2013)

If the Golden Goddesses and Triforce work together, they could pull a decisive stalemate against Eru Illuvatar.

Everything else that happens below that level of power between both verses, I could care less.


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## Bender (Jan 22, 2013)

@Colonel Awesome

One moon vs a god who created everything in existence? It doesn't take rocket scientist to point out who comes out victorious.

Hint:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Eru ass stomps all of them


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jan 22, 2013)

Pecola said:


> If the Golden Goddesses and Triforce work together, they could pull a decisive stalemate against Eru Illuvatar.



What makes you think that?


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## Bender (Jan 22, 2013)

@Pecola

Oh this 'll be good. Do explain why you think this. On another note, there's a Maia whom IIRC guides the moon (Tirion).


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## Edward Nygma (Jan 22, 2013)

Bombadil solos. /thread


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## Solrac (Jan 22, 2013)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> What makes you think that?



Because if anyone knows jackcrap about the Zelda-verse, they're the goddamned creators of Hyrule, Termina, and the Sacred Realm (which implies they could be multi-dimensional at least). And they created the physical universe/realm, law and order (basically think physics), and life. 

And most of all, they created the frickin' Triforce, a small portion of their true essence and power, which if all three pieces are together, gives the person wielding the power of their wish lol. 

In short, they're basically the omnipotents of their verse and they're pretty much timeless and incorporeal. 

Simple no? 

Though from what I read about Eru, he created something called the "Flame Imperishable" right? That kinda sounds a bit similar to the Golden Goddesses's feat of creating the Triforce. 

So in my opinion, both Eru and The Golden Goddesses both stalemate each other as both are the omnipotent powers of their respective verses and are both roughly universal/dimensional-level creators. 

I honestly enjoy the Zelda series more than the LotR series, but I could care less whose top-gods wins.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Jan 22, 2013)

Bender said:


> @Colonel Awesome
> 
> One moon vs a god who created everything in existence? It doesn't take rocket scientist to point out who comes out victorious.
> 
> ...



Did you even read my short, short post? When did I say anything, *anything *about a moon in there? I said the gods of creation. That refers to the Golden Goddesses, not the moon. What are you smoking?


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## Bender (Jan 22, 2013)

@Colonel Awesome

What are the feats of the golden goddesses? And have they any history of creating a universe like Eru did? Destroying a continent? Is there anyone like the Maiar Tilion (who guides the moon) and Arien (guider and hot as the fucking sun)


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## Skream (Jan 22, 2013)

The ghost army led by the ghost king that Aragorn freed Solos.


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## Linkofone (Jan 22, 2013)

"Before time began and before spirits and life existed, the universe was in chaos. The three Golden Goddesses descended upon the chaos and began the creation of of the world, each of them creating a different facet of the realm. Din created the material realm, Nayru gave the realm law and order, and Farore created all life forms who would follow the said order." 

Sounds so much like a certain other Religion.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 22, 2013)

As far as I recall, the goddesses only really created a planet and possibly bequeathed to it the laws of physics it functions under.

So, not sure how they're matching the tolkien "god" from what little I've heard.


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## Nevermind (Jan 22, 2013)

The Triforce has no real feats either, so don't bring it up.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 22, 2013)

Nevermind said:


> The Triforce has no real feats either, so don't bring it up.



Its realistically above fuckers like hylia and demise (who seem to potentially have island level feats if brohan gets around to doing them) and a fair deal below the actual creator goddesses (which more or less capped at planet level to my knowledge).

Basically watered down dragon balls when you get down to it.

Without the possible limitations on what you can wish for within its power to grant I guess.


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## Linkofone (Jan 22, 2013)

Nevermind said:


> The Triforce has no real feats either, so don't bring it up.





:B

Jokes aside, with the Triforce of power, Ganon became fairly powerful. I can't imagine the power of all 3 together.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 22, 2013)

Nevermind said:


> The Triforce has no real feats either, so don't bring it up.



Ganondorf's immense magical power in many incarnations is a direct result of his possessing the Triforce of Power.

As to no real feats from the Triforce as a whole, I think Skyward Sword and Wind Waker beg to differ.  Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule wished for Hyrule to be buried under the waves, and his wish was granted.  When Skyward Sword!Link got his hands on the Triforce, he wished for The Imprisoned's destruction, crushing it with the temple where the Triforce was found.

Oh, and Link also used it in Link to the Past to undo everything that Ganon inflicted upon Hyrule, up to and including reviving those killed during that time.


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## Solrac (Jan 22, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> As far as I recall, the goddesses only really created a planet and possibly bequeathed to it the laws of physics it functions under.
> 
> So, not sure how they're matching the tolkien "god" from what little I've heard.



They also created alternate dimensions/realms and are arguably outside all physical laws and time of the world/universe they created.


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## DeusExMachina (Jan 27, 2013)

What feats do the Golden Goddesses have?


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## Linkofone (Jan 27, 2013)

Creating the Universe of LOZ.


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## Solrac (Jan 27, 2013)

DeusExMachina said:


> What feats do the Golden Goddesses have?



^ I just explained above, my dear sir.

From my view, outside of being the supposed real "Christian-Judeo God" with a fictionalized name, I believe Eru is roughly equal in terms of feats with the Golden Goddesses.


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## Wizard (Jan 27, 2013)

Composite Link Solos: Unlimited Magic (for 3 days?) and Naryu's Love and Din's Fire. Oh and Fierce Deity Mask. I assume Link can beat Middle Earth in three days. Don't know about the whole LOTR universe though.


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## Bender (Jan 27, 2013)

As Chaostheory said if they only created a planet than much of the quash from them sounds like outliers.


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## Solrac (Jan 27, 2013)

^ They created more than just "one planet". They also created an alternate dimension called the Sacred Realm and also Termina (which is arguably a parallel universe/world).


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## Reddan (Jan 27, 2013)

Pecola said:


> ^ They created more than just "one planet". They also created an alternate dimension called the Sacred Realm and also Termina (which is arguably a parallel universe/world).



Eru created our universe. The cosmology of the universe is far greater than what the Goddesses created.


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## steveht93 (Jan 27, 2013)

Link shall not pass!


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## Solrac (Jan 27, 2013)

arednad said:


> Eru created *our universe*. The cosmology of the universe is far greater than what the Goddesses created.



Assuming if you're equating Eru to the Christian God in the literal sense, then ARGUABLY yes. 

Otherwise: Yeah no.

And the Golden Goddesses created the whole Zelda universe (along with the sacred realm within), so I say it's pretty even.


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## Reddan (Jan 27, 2013)

Pecola said:


> Assuming if you're equating Eru to the Christian God in the literal sense, then ARGUABLY yes.
> 
> Otherwise: Yeah no.
> 
> And the Golden Goddesses created the whole Zelda universe (along with the sacred realm within), so I say it's pretty even.



What do you mean no? The Lord of the Rings Universe is the same as ours, so Eru would have created a universe just like ours. Again did the goddeses create 100 billion galaxies?


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## Solrac (Jan 27, 2013)

arednad said:


> What do you mean no? *The Lord of the Rings Universe is the same as ours*, so Eru would have created a universe just like ours. Again did the goddeses create 100 billion galaxies?



I am not an LotR buff, but even I don't really know of anything that suggest/implies that LotR = our universe. 

Middle-Earth is just a smaller-scale fantasy universe modeled after our own during the Medieval times. 

It isn't like Alice in Wonderland, Wizard of Oz, Chronicles of Narnia, any other notable classic fantasy-element-heavy universe/series anyone could care to mention off the top of their head, Marvel, Dc, Image, etc. where its own unique world is actually connected to what would be a version of our distinct real-universe. 

And concerning your question of the goddesses creating 100 billion galaxies, well that depends on how largely you view a typical fantasy universe like Zelda. And if I recall, isn't the main setting of LotR's universe limited from being a planet to a solar system at best? I don't really know of any galaxies being mentioned in LotR cosmology.

And like Eru, the Golden Goddesses created alternate realms (Sacred Realm and Twilight Realm). 

And again, like I said... Eru and Golden Goddesses stalemate for having an almost equal level of feats.


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## Linkofone (Jan 27, 2013)

If you think about it, Legend of Zelda universe is bigger than ours because ours don't have extra dimensions like the Twilght Realm and Termina. In an unrelated note, having the Moon with a face proves that at least they are trying to be original.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 27, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> In an unrelated note, having the Moon with a face proves that at least they are trying to be original.


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## Linkofone (Jan 27, 2013)

Looks very bad. :/

Couldn't really see any connection.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 27, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> Looks very bad. :/
> 
> Couldn't really see any connection.



The moon with a face thing was already done.

In 1902.


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## Solrac (Jan 27, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> If you think about it, Legend of Zelda universe is bigger than ours because ours don't have extra dimensions like the Twilght Realm and Termina. In an unrelated note, having the Moon with a face proves that at least they are trying to be original.



Not trying to argue against the zelda side, but no one really knows for sure how big the real universe (or reality) truly is and the biggest that we can observe or even currently record/measure of it is only but a tiny and infinitesmial fraction of its true size. 

And if you added in religion/mythology/spirituality/philosophy/etc. other stuff pertaining to real-life, then you do have extra dimensions and stuff. 

And if you want to go for astronomy, cosmology, and quantum mechanics, there's also the M-Theory and String Theory.


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## Linkofone (Jan 27, 2013)

Pecola said:


> Not trying to argue against the zelda side, but no one really knows for sure how big the real universe (or reality) truly is and the biggest that we can observe or even currently record/measure of it is only but a tiny and infinitesmial fraction of its true size.
> 
> And if you added in religion/mythology/spirituality/philosophy/etc. other stuff pertaining to real-life, then you do have extra dimensions and stuff.
> 
> And if you want to go for astronomy, cosmology, and quantum mechanics, there's also the M-Theory and String Theory.



As a religious person myself, I do believe that the Universe is large, may even be infinite. But for the sake of those who do not believe in religion and such. I would have to say the Zelda universe is larger because it incorporates things such as other dimensions. Note that I might be wrong on this 100%.

Just wanted to give my 2 cents.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Jan 28, 2013)

So, assuming that the cosmics of each side stalemate eachother, how do the lesser forces of each side fare against each other?

Such as mooks vs. mooks, the different Links and main villains vs. LotR's main folks?


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## Linkofone (Jan 28, 2013)

Gahhh, there are too many Links and Zeldas to count ... I don't even want to think of the CD-I Link ... There are those from Super Smash Brothers ...



There are also 3 different main Ganons (not counting Ganons from other games), according to Nintendo. One is from the Defeated Hero storyline, another is from the adult Link storyline, the other is from the storyline that lacked a Hero.

Then there's people like Zant, Madora, the Sages, the Moon, the Giants, Midna, Demise, Ghirahim, Vaati, Twinrova, and etc...

I might be missing a dozen other characters.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Jan 28, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> Gahhh, there are too many Links and Zeldas to count ... I don't even want to think of the CD-I Link ... There are those from Super Smash Brothers ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't forget this handsome devil.  Literally.


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## Linkofone (Jan 28, 2013)

Colonel Awesome said:


> Don't forget this handsome devil.  Literally.



Yeah haha, i edited him and a few others in. 



*OPPA GWONAM STYLE*


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Jan 28, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> Yeah haha, i edited him and a few others in.



Hmm, so, barring cosmics, is there anyone on the LotR's side that could counter act the moon falling? On the other hand, that would probably kill everyone on Zelda's side too. Except the Mask. 

Hell, even basic mooks vs. mooks. How would that turn out?


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## Linkofone (Jan 28, 2013)

Colonel Awesome said:


> Hmm, so, barring cosmics, is there anyone on the LotR's side that could counter act the moon falling? On the other hand, that would probably kill everyone on Zelda's side too. Except the Mask.
> 
> Hell, even basic mooks vs. mooks. How would that turn out?



I'm not sure if Gandalf can do something about the moon, but I think he is cool?

Anyways, erm ... I don't know ...


_Gee, it sure is boring around here ..._


_Mah Boi, this peace is what all true warrior strives for._


_Your Majesty, ________ and their minions have seized the Island of ______._


_Hmm, how can we help?_


_It is written, only Link can defeat ______._


_Great I'll grab my stuff ..._


_There is no time, your sword is enough._


_Link: How about a kiss for luck? 
Zelda: You have got to be kidding me._


_Squadala, we're off!_

But, that is how this whole fight happened.


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## Reddan (Jan 28, 2013)

Pecola said:


> I am not an LotR buff, but even I don't really know of anything that suggest/implies that LotR = our universe.
> 
> Middle-Earth is just a smaller-scale fantasy universe modeled after our own during the Medieval times.
> 
> ...



If you did know more about LOTR you would realise there are literally hundreds of statements explaining that it was the same universe as ours. If you don't know much about LOTR, why are you making such confident statements? As I said before the LOTR universe is our universe and that dwarfs anything the goddesses ever did.

If you want to talk about different dimensions, then Eru moved Valinor into a different dimension as well, where only the elves can get to.


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## Solrac (Jan 28, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> As a religious person myself, I do believe that the Universe is large, may even be infinite. But for the sake of those who do not believe in religion and such. I would have to say the Zelda universe is larger because it incorporates things such as other dimensions. Note that I might be wrong on this 100%.
> 
> Just wanted to give my 2 cents.



Well even for non-religious people, there's still scientific theories that suggest our universe is only one of infinite amounts out there. And M-Theory states that our universe is consisted of 11 dimensions in which each contains infinite parallel universes.


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## Solrac (Jan 28, 2013)

arednad said:


> If you did know more about LOTR you would realise there literally hundreds of statements explaining that it was the same universe as ours. If you don't know much about LOTR, why are you making such confident statements? As I said before the LOTR universe is our universe and that dwarfs anything the goddesses ever did.
> 
> If you want to talk about different dimensions, then Eru moved Valinor into a different dimension as well, where only the elves can get to.



Again I'm not sure if I should take those "LotR-verse = our verse" statements at face value. And once again, if it WAS assumed to be the same universe as ours (like all those countless classic fairy tales/mythical/legendary stories or stuff you read about), then wouldn't the planets in the solar system have to have the same name as ours instead of using fictionalized names for it? And who's to say that the Zelda-verse isn't the same verse as ours in terms of standard size either going by your logic?

And the way I judge this match is by looking at the respective individual fictional cosmologies of each setting and looking up Tolkien's cosmology on wikipedia, there isn't any mention of galaxies in it. :/ But Eru did create the Void, which is pretty impressive. 

But like I said if you want to assume Eru = the real Biblical God, then he wins (but in my opinion, it wouldn't technically be Eru vs. the Golden Goddesses then), otherwise, they both stalemate with each other for being the respective supreme beings of their own verses. 

as for BFR'ing others to dimensions, characters weaker than the Golden Goddesses, the Seven Sages, have done that to Ganondorf to the Sacred Realm, though granted via slight prep. And The Light Spirits, servants of the Golden Goddesses, sealed away the Dark Interlopers into the Twilight Realm.


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## Reddan (Jan 28, 2013)

Pecola said:


> Again I'm not sure if I should take those "LotR-verse = our verse" statements at face value. And once again, if it WAS assumed to be the same universe as ours (like all those countless classic fairy tales/mythical/legendary stories or stuff you read about), then wouldn't the planets in the solar system have to have the same name as ours instead of using fictionalized names for it? And who's to say that the Zelda-verse isn't the same verse as ours in terms of standard size either going by your logic?
> 
> And the way I judge this match is by looking at the respective individual fictional cosmologies of each setting and looking up Tolkien's cosmology on wikipedia, there isn't any mention of galaxies in it. :/ But Eru did create the Void, which is pretty impressive.
> 
> ...


So you have casually looked up wikipedia and expect it to tell you everything there is about Tolkien's world with no mistakes? If the Zelda world is the same us ours please provide some quotes.

*'Physically Arda was what we should call the Solar System'*

The Silmarillion are the myths that were passed down in Numenor about the world, but they are not the true account as Tolkien goes on to say. The Universe was always like ours and there may have been other Maiar controlling other Solar Systems, but his story focuses on our Solar System alone.

This feat and creating the separate dimension to place Valinor puts Eru far above the goddesses.


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## Solrac (Jan 28, 2013)

arednad said:


> So you have casually looked up wikipedia and expect it to tell you everything there is about Tolkien's world with no mistakes? If the Zelda world is the same us ours please provide some quotes.
> 
> *'Physically Arda was what we should call the Solar System'*
> 
> ...



Like I said, going by this logic, Marvel Earth/Dc Earth = our real Earth exactly. Looking up the LotR wiki, Tolkien claims that middle-earth is our world in a fictional time. Okay this I'll give you, but it's still up to debate as to whether or not you could apply this context to equate Eru's creation feat being equal to the creation of our real universe to the finest detail, given that we are going by just the basic or unique parts of each verse's respective cosmologies.

But my point is that both Eru and Golden Goddesses are the omnipotents of their verses/series and a single universe is a universe to either of them, no matter how big they may be. 

so Eru created multiple solar systems then... impressive. but the Zelda wiki also mentions that there exists several constellations in the zelda-universe, which i'm not mistaken each of them being a multi-star feat. 

And Eru created the Timeless Halls and the Void outside the universe correct?  So that's two alternate dimensions he created. 

The Golden Godesses created Termina (a parallel universe to Hyrule), Sacred Realm, Twilight Realm, Silent Realm, and ARGUABLY multiple timelines. So that makes it four alternate dimensions for them at least. 

So overall, even if Eru does outrank The Golden Goddesses in pure creation feat, it would only be by a slight or moderate margin based on the highest possible estimate I can come up with for both in my opinion. 

Regardless, I can't really see both Eru and The Golden Goddesses doing anything to hurt each other as they are both supreme beings and have around the same level of feats and powers.


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## Linkofone (Jan 28, 2013)

I see the Golden Goddess as the Trinity. But anyways, it is kinda pointless pinning Creators of worlds together. They are essentially the same thing. 

Go down a Tier or two and have lower powers duke it out.


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## billy3 (Jan 28, 2013)

With regards to LoTR = our verse, Tolkien did intend the world of LoTR to be a fictional prehistory of our own reality (LoTR itself is actually an allegory for WW2).

With regards to the trifoce, say hello to Ungoliant


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## Wizard (Jan 30, 2013)

Yeah but Lord of the Rings is a younger universe than our current times. Did Tolkien even know about the expanding universe and everything? Its not like Link would have to go to every galaxy to fight, since Tolkien didn't write about it.


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## billy3 (Jan 30, 2013)

Of course not, I'm just pointing out what Tolkien intended.

With regards to this VS, involving Omnis kinda of takes the fun out of it (unstoppable force vs unmovable object scenario).


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## Solrac (Jan 30, 2013)

Can't believe I'm practically the only person in this thread who's defending the Golden Goddesses. :uva 

I also forgot the golden goddesses also created the World of the Ocean King, which now makes it five alternate dimensions and possibly multiple timelines they created.

But yeah without Eru and Golden Goddesses, I'm going to say it comes down to... I guess... The Ainur, Valar, and Sauron (any other top-hitter I may be missing) vs. The Light Spirits, The Moon, The Dark Interlopers, Hylia, The Goddess of Time, and Ganon/Demise (and other deities I may be missing?)? 

I wonder how that goes.

But to my knowledge, I think Link will most certainly be taking down at least most of LotR's main characters with him.


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## Linkofone (Jan 30, 2013)

Pecola said:


> Can't believe I'm practically the only person in this thread who's defending the Golden Goddesses. :uva
> 
> I also forgot the golden goddesses also created the World of the Ocean King, which now makes it five alternate dimensions and possibly multiple timelines they created.
> 
> ...



I treat them as the Trinity. So pretty much all powerful.


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## Solrac (Jan 30, 2013)

^ again I seem to be the only one here who doesn't take Eru's claimed position as the real Biblical God too seriously at face value. So with that logic alone, I don't really take the Golden Goddesses as the Christian Trinity either.

But really, aside from the Golden Goddesses creating more dimensions than Eru, Eru outranks the Golden Goddesses in pure feats by just a slim or somewhat-fair margin. Overall the Golden Goddesses together could tie/stalemate with him at best.

Below that it's basically: The Ainur, Valar, and Sauron (any other top-hitter I may be missing) vs. The Light Spirits, The Moon/The Four Giants, The Dark Interlopers, Hylia, The Goddess of Time, Fierce Deity, and Ganon/Demise. 

And Link is >>>>> most LotR main characters, unless anyone can convince me otherwise.


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## TehChron (Jan 30, 2013)

Ha.

Hed get chewed up by the hawks and Elendil.


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## SophisTEAcated (Jan 31, 2013)

Eru created our universe. Tolkien was even writing a story about their world becoming our world at the time of his death. Therefore Eru has an entire universe under his belt, whereas the Goddesses have a few planet+ sized dimensions. In fact, we can't even know for sure that Link's planet is as big as our own, given that their moon is so tiny.

Last I checked, a few small dimensions and a planet or two does not = omnipotence. And throwing down omnipotence in their case is foolhardy anyway. They've never shown anything particularly interesting or powerful.

Come to that, Eru sang the freaking universe into existence, changed the world from being flat to being round, and created hundreds of thousands of beings, most of which are > than LoZ stuff. (few exceptions of course, like those listed above. And those die to the magic of LotR as far as I can see)

The Maiar, for instance, are incorpeal spirits of pure energy. Gandalf was one of these given physical form. They are: immortal, highly intelligent, and far stronger than men (even in their physical forms). Gandalf manipulated all of the events in the Hobbit to rid Sauron of a potential ally (in the form of Smaug) and slowed his resurgence by fighting him while he was still the Necromancer in Mirkwood. All this many, many years before the Fellowship was formed. Gandalf (again, weakened) could summon lightning (seen in the Hobbit while fighting the goblins in the mountain cave) or fire (also in the Hobbit, though shown more powerfully in the Fellowship, trying to drive off the wolves/Wargs that chased them near Moria). Another of what men call "wizards" was Radagast, who may have been a shape/color shifter. Though outside of the noncanon movie, his powers remain unclear. Saruman was at one time more powerful than Gandalf, and wiser in the ways of men. He was adept at trickery and brute sorcery. His pride was his undoing.

Then there is Uinen, a Maiar of the sea, who could calm the wrath of the ocean because Osse, her lover, was their master and could cause great storms around them. He was briefly in the service of Melkor, but she "persuaded" him to stop (wink wink)

Melian, another Maiar, created a massive shield around a city/forest. It caused all who wandered into it to become lost in a maze and, eventually, starve. Only those who were more powerful than her or were permitted could pass through, and only 2 ever did without her wanting to.

Balrogs are "once-Maiars" who attuned themselves to the song of Melkor rather than Eru. They are creatures of fire and shadow, reaching over 20 feet tall, and projecting an aura of fear that represents some form of mind rape (albeit a low level). When the Balrog fought Gandalf in Fellowship of the Ring, their battle killed both of them and broke the side of the mountain (specifically, Gandalf casting him down broke the mountain) which gives you an indication of BOTH their powers. They also, en masse, fought against...

Ungoliant, another evil Maiar. She birthed all the giant spiders of Mirkwood and Shelob (who deserve their own respect stuff but I'm already getting tired of writing ) She could eat light and weave webs of shadows that no light could pass through but that she could move around in. Which is freaking beast, and would make fighting her nigh impossible. She also grew so huge and powerful that she cast down Melkor, and it took the aforementioned horde of Balrogs to subdue her and help Melkor escape. She was not killed by this, impressively enough.

Sauron is the most powerful of the Maiar according to most accounts, growing so powerful he could have challenged the Valar. He could, in his early years, cast powerful illusions and change his form easily and at will. His cunning was so great that, even while amassing a great army of orcs/trolls/icky things, he could convince men and (more impressively) elves to do his bidding. Hence was born the One Ring. He created this one ring to rule the others (derp) all of which had great power that should be discussed in more detail elsewhere. (as a cool sidenote, the Dwarves were all like "FU and your bloody rings, I aint afraid a' no dang stupid curse" and the only side affect was a great lust for gold) He was later captured by the Numenoreans. So what did the old boy do? He let himself be captured, manipulated them for years, became the advisor, converted them to worshipping Melkor, and attack freaking Valinor. Had Eru himself not intervened and drowned the whole island, there might have been grave consequences. Eru also bent the world. Aka, made it all round and modern instead of flat. Sauron's body was destroyed by the event, but he fled back home as a spirit with the one ring and made himself a new body. Later it was destroyed by Isildur, and without the One Ring he could only make a small amount of his strength evident. Hence his stint as a Necromancer in Mirkwood (whom the White Council drove out) though he was well prepared and fled back to Mordor to prepare for war. When he finally "died" he didn't really die. He lived on as a weak and feeble spirit, no longer able to make a physical form. Possibly he was removed to the Void with Melkor, but it is unlikely. For pure powers: he gave off heat so great he burned superhumans to death with it. He was described as shadowed and dark, but burning like fire. his mere presence could break weak wills. He could also alter the substance of the world through will but, not being Valar like Melkor, it was not too powerful. 

But the Maiar are lesser spirits. The Valar are the truly powerful ones. However I'm going to end this block of text like this:

TL;DR-Legend of Zelda gets its face wrecked.


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## TehChron (Jan 31, 2013)

Ungoliant was so much.more awesome than every Gohma ever.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Jan 31, 2013)

In the Golden Goddesses' defense, we can't know for sure how big most of the dimensions they created are. Asserting that they're only small is asserting to have certain knowledge that you can't have given the ambiguity. It's never touched upon probably because it doesn't matter. Unless otherwise stated, I wouldn't be surprised if Zelda's Earth was suppsosed to be the same size. To be specific, I am referring to the alternate realms, such as the Sacred Realm or Twilight Realm, not the regular world we all know and love.

In Wind Waker's night sky, for example, you can find (IIRC) some real-life star constellations, which has its own implications I hope I don't need to elaborate on. But just in case: That would strongly imply they're in our very own Milky Way galaxy, most likely on what is supposed to be planet Earth. Perhaps their universe is ours as well? 

But in pretty much any video game, hell, in _anything_, it would only make sense for the base assumption to be that they're on planet Earth unless a plot point is necessary to point out that they're not. If you disagree, please explain why. If there is a damn good reason why that would be an invalid assumption, I would really like to hear it.


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## SophisTEAcated (Jan 31, 2013)

Colonel Awesome said:


> In the Golden Goddesses' defense, we can't know for sure how big most of the dimensions they created are. Asserting that they're only small is asserting to have certain knowledge that you can't have given the ambiguity. It's never touched upon probably because it doesn't matter. Unless otherwise stated, I wouldn't be surprised if Zelda's Earth was suppsosed to be the same size. To be specific, I am referring to the alternate realms, such as the Sacred Realm or Twilight Realm, not the regular world we all know and love.
> 
> In Wind Waker's night sky, for example, you can find (IIRC) some real-life star constellations, which has its own implications I hope I don't need to elaborate on. But just in case: That would strongly imply they're in our very own Milky Way galaxy, most likely on what is supposed to be planet Earth. Perhaps their universe is ours as well?
> 
> But in pretty much any video game, hell, in _anything_, it would only make sense for the base assumption to be that they're on planet Earth unless a plot point is necessary to point out that they're not. If you disagree, please explain why. If there is a damn good reason why that would be an invalid assumption, I would really like to hear it.



Because we can't know for sure, and unlike in LotR where it is stated that it is our universe, I go by what we see in game. The majority of the stuff we see in game consists of a planet (and I will  agree it is probably Earth sized, I was just pointing out how teeny the moon is, which has sciency ramifications but screw that) and a few alternate dimensions that are possibly/probably the same size. 

Unless I'm missing a scene where they saw actual celestial bodies, it's dangerous to assume they were real world stars or even as large as ours (again, look at the moon). In Chronicles of Narnia, the stars formed constellations and turned out to be warrior people. Which is both BAMF and shows how small Narnia's cosmos are.


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## Solrac (Jan 31, 2013)

^ Bleh Narnia is >>>>>> both LotR and LoZ in terms of quality and power.


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## SophisTEAcated (Jan 31, 2013)

Pecola said:


> ^ Bleh Narnia is >>>>>> both LotR and LoZ in terms of quality and power.



Not particularly. They both feature omnipotents (based off the same religion) who created the world through song. In fact, many characters in both series are based off of the authors (Treebeard from LotR was based off of CS Lewis, for instance). LotR has a greater host of super powerful beings. If it weren't for the fact that the omnipotents equal out, Narnia would get pwned...

That being said, quality is up to you. I prefer LotR. It's deeper writing, more epic, and the lore is incredible. Narnia is ok, but it was aimed at children, so the writing and whatnot is a bit more shallow. I prefer Lewis' other books (The Great Divorce being a personal favorite, althoug the Screwtape Letters are awesome as well)


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## Solrac (Jan 31, 2013)

well sophistacated (sp?), your answer on LotR's whole "writing into the modern world" seemed almost the exact same as the one my other friend told me. Deja Vu much? 

Anyways doesn't Narnia have a full-blown multiverse (and two multiversal beings, Aslan and Emperor-Over-The-Sea)? And isn't LotR only a solar system to single universe (with like two outer dimensions) at most? 

I think Narnia (and a ton of other fantasy series) are more awesome than LotR in my opinion, because I'm kind of guy who prefers colorfulness, beauty, lightness, accessibility, family-friendliness (bite me), etc. above all and whatever it is that decidedly contrasts them and other types of fantasy or speculative fiction I love/like from the atmosphere, tone, and setting of anything from JRR Tolkien. 

I don't have anything against LotR, but I just think it's a bit overrated and it's just NEVER really been my cup of tea, yes I know it's well-known and influential in the contemporary fantasy genre, but still... there are at least many other fantasy-verses/characters (broadly-speaking) that I prefer and support over LoTR/Tolkien all the way in terms of both quality/preference and debates/battles. 

I'm going to have lunch now. Talk to you later.


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## SophisTEAcated (Jan 31, 2013)

Pecola said:


> well sophistacated (sp?), your answer on LotR's whole "writing into the modern world" seemed almost the exact same as the one my other friend told me. Deja Vu much?



Your friend knows something I do about LotR. Woo?

Also the "misspelling" is on purpose. Based on the common misconception that tea is to be associated with sophistication, esp that of the English. As well as a funny way of pronouncing it.



Pecola said:


> Anyways doesn't Narnia have a full-blown multiverse (and two multiversal beings, Aslan and Emperor-Over-The-Sea)? And isn't LotR only a solar system to single universe (with like two outer dimensions) at most?



Nyet. Narnia has a multiverse, but the problem is that we only see about 3 (not counting the World Between). And we know that Narnia isn't a full sized universe + we know nothing about the Ice Queen's universe. Although it seems bigger than Narnia (I seem to remember stuff about them having other planets and whatnot)

The main problem with this is that they weren't created all at once, so no, they aren't multiversal. Aslan showed the ability to create a small, solar system sized world given a bit of time, and could no doubt destroy one. The Emperor Over the Sea is supposed to be omnipotent, just like Eru. Since Aslan=Jesus, we can easily assume him and the Emperor are basically one being. Eru/Emperor created our universe and a few other realms.

But as I said, they're supposed to be omnipotent. So they tie, no debate there.



Pecola said:


> I think Narnia (and a ton of other fantasy series) are more awesome than LotR in my opinion, because I'm kind of guy who prefers colorfulness, beauty, lightness, accessibility, family-friendliness (bite me), etc. above all and whatever it is that decidedly contrasts them and other types of fantasy or speculative fiction I love/like from the atmosphere, tone, and setting of anything from JRR Tolkien.



Colorfulness, beauty, ligtness, accessibility all works with LotR too you know. Narnia is admittedly more for children than LotR, so I guess you can be happy with that.

I, however, prefer the intelligence and depth behind Tolkien's stuff. The themes and ideas behind it are just... awe inspiring. The wastefulness of evil leading to its own doom, the triumph of beauty and goodness over said evil, even the sadness of an ancient race whose time is passed... the power of the dwarves, the eternal conflict of men... it's just so incredible.

Not that I have anything against your opinion. Narnia is sweet too.



Pecola said:


> I don't have anything against LotR, but I just think it's a bit overrated and it's just NEVER really been my cup of tea, yes I know it's well-known and influential in the contemporary fantasy genre, but still... there are at least many other fantasy-verses/characters (broadly-speaking) that I prefer and support over LoTR/Tolkien all the way in terms of both quality/preference and debates/battles.
> 
> I'm going to have lunch now. Talk to you later.



So you have nothing against LotR... except all this stuff you have against it? Have you ever read any of it?

And, just saying, 90% or more of those fantasy series probably spent most of their time ripping off Tolkien. Whether you like it or not, you owe him for what he gave literature.


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## Solrac (Jan 31, 2013)

Sorry it took me long to come back to you.



SophisTEAcated said:


> Nyet. Narnia has a multiverse, but the problem is that we only see about 3 (not counting the World Between). And we know that Narnia isn't a full sized universe + we know nothing about the Ice Queen's universe. Although it seems bigger than Narnia (I seem to remember stuff about them having other planets and whatnot)
> 
> The main problem with this is that they weren't created all at once, so no, they aren't multiversal. Aslan showed the ability to create a small, solar system sized world given a bit of time, and could no doubt destroy one. The Emperor Over the Sea is supposed to be omnipotent, just like Eru. Since Aslan=Jesus, we can easily assume him and the Emperor are basically one being. Eru/Emperor created our universe and a few other realms.
> 
> But as I said, they're supposed to be omnipotent. So they tie, no debate there.



As much as I don't like it when my side is on the receiving end of the "multiversal > universal omnipotents" argument, I just think that Narnia having a bigger and larger verse (or a multiverse) would make them overall superior, barring omnipotents. Seeing as omnipotent is omnipotent, no matter how big the setting of your verse is (even though the OBD still has to go by feats). 

Well fine... it's a tie. But same could be said for most fantasy or any-genre universes with their omnipotents (but it depends). 

I still like Narnia and other fantasy series more and want the former to win and nobody's going to change my opinion in either preference or battle. ph



> Colorfulness, beauty, ligtness, accessibility all works with LotR too you know. Narnia is admittedly more for children than LotR, so I guess you can be happy with that.



That I shall. If anyone has a problem with me loving and enjoying "children's" or "all-ages" stuff, especially if I think they're awesome, then they can go to hell. 



> I, however, prefer the intelligence and depth behind Tolkien's stuff. The themes and ideas behind it are just... awe inspiring. The wastefulness of evil leading to its own doom, the triumph of beauty and goodness over said evil, even the sadness of an ancient race whose time is passed... the power of the dwarves, the eternal conflict of men... it's just so incredible.



Intelligence and depth is great I guess, but I'm not too crazy about it when it comes to other media. I mean the purpose is just to have fun and entertainment right? I've already got plenty of other stuff to revel in for depth and intelligence. 



> Not that I have anything against your opinion. Narnia is sweet too.



I'm glad we both established that. :monocles.



> So you have nothing against LotR... except all this stuff you have against it? Have you ever read any of it?
> 
> And, just saying, 90% or more of those fantasy series probably spent most of their time ripping off Tolkien. Whether you like it or not, you owe him for what he gave literature.



I said I have nothing against it as a series, i'm only stating why it has never been my favorite series, despite its supposed iconic-ness and influence.

And from what I think, "fantasy" itself is a pretty broad, loose, and wide term as a genre and you don't have to follow the mold of LotR/"Tolkien" or even any well-known stereotypical pseudo-medieval european-inspired setting to be a true "fantasy" universe. 

And as for 90% of series ripping off Tolkien... I can see where you're coming from, but the only reason I've never been too crazy about Tolkien/LotR (other than for its movies and even then I didn't start to like it as much as I did until well... this decade.) is because they've just never been my kind of series with all the darker and serious atmosphere. And as a note of interest, what about other things that are being ripped off? 

90% of video game platformers rip off Mario/Donkey Kong and they owe to him for what Shigeru miyamoto has done for gaming. Doesn't it kinda rile you up that fans of series that are considered rivals or imitations of the "original" are always not so appreciative of said "original" in newer generations?


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Jan 31, 2013)

SophisTEAcated said:


> Because we can't know for sure, and unlike in LotR where it is stated that it is our universe, I go by what we see in game. The majority of the stuff we see in game consists of a planet (and I will  agree it is probably Earth sized, I was just pointing out how teeny the moon is, which has sciency ramifications but screw that) and a few alternate dimensions that are possibly/probably the same size.



Majora's Mask moon might not have even been the real moon. It turned into a rainbow or some shit. Plus, technical limitations should be factored into how everything was depicted on screen. We all know objects aren't supposed to fall that apparently slow, _inching _towards the town, but that's how it was depicted likely due to technical limitations. 



> Unless I'm missing a scene where they saw actual celestial bodies, it's dangerous to assume they were real world stars or even as large as ours (again, look at the moon). In Chronicles of Narnia, the stars formed constellations and turned out to be warrior people. Which is both BAMF and shows how small Narnia's cosmos are.



I shall reiterate, why is it really such an unreasonable assumption to assume it's basically a fictional version of earth in the universe unless there is a plot point that needs to point out that they're not? In Chronicles of Narnia as you just mentioned, there was, with constellations being warrior people. Not in Zelda. Zelda =/= Narnia.

And again, in Wind Waker, you can find real life constellations in the night sky.

And as for LotR being in real life, don't kid me with that. I know what WoG was, but it would have to be a _fictional version_ of real life. Obviously, the planet was never flat at any point in real life history, nor is there any such thing as magic. It's a _fictional version_ of real life. Just like almost everything ever.

We can get input from other forum members, but I think it's reasonable to assume it's a regular universe (as a whole) unless a plot point needs to point out that it's not. Otherwise, the in-universe universe as a whole being smaller or drastically different probably in some way never even crossed the creator's mind.


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## SophisTEAcated (Jan 31, 2013)

Pecola said:


> As much as I don't like it when my side is on the receiving end of the "multiversal > universal omnipotents" argument, I just think that Narnia having a bigger and larger verse (or a multiverse) would make them overall superior, barring omnipotents. Seeing as omnipotent is omnipotent, no matter how big the setting of your verse is (even though the OBD still has to go by feats).
> 
> Well fine... it's a tie. But same could be said for most fantasy or any-genre universes with their omnipotents (but it depends).
> 
> I still like Narnia and other fantasy series more and want the former to win and nobody's going to change my opinion in either preference or battle. ph



That would be true, if the God in question had created multiple universes at once. But technically we have evidence that even shows that Aslan created those other universes, it's just implied heavily. So Eru>Aslan in creation feats, but because they both = omnipotent they are equal.

And I don't particularly care what your opinion is, I care about facts. And facts say that Narnia gets stomped.





Pecola said:


> That I shall. If anyone has a problem with me loving and enjoying "children's" or "all-ages" stuff, especially if I think they're awesome, then they can go to hell.
> 
> 
> Intelligence and depth is great I guess, but I'm not too crazy about it when it comes to other media. I mean the purpose is just to have fun and entertainment right? I've already got plenty of other stuff to revel in for depth and intelligence.



You want enlightenment without intelligence? Either your word usage is off or your definition of enlightenment is different than mine. Fun does not always = loose, goofy, stupidity. Fun is supposed to be more than a couple of laughs.

A good example is Back to the Future. Unlike modern movies in the same genre, BttF is a classic that makes you want to watch it over and over again. It doesn't rely on a few haha moments to power itself. It has an intelligent plot, great characters, etc WITH good haha moments.



Pecola said:


> I said I have nothing against it as a series, i'm only stating why it has never been my favorite series, despite its supposed iconic-ness and influence.
> 
> And from what I think, "fantasy" itself is a pretty broad, loose, and wide term as a genre and you don't have to follow the mold of LotR/"Tolkien" or even any well-known stereotypical pseudo-medieval european-inspired setting to be a true "fantasy" universe.
> 
> ...




You keep saying you have nothing against it, like that's some magic catchphrase that will stop me from being offended. The fact is that you do have something against it, as you prove in your held back antagonism.

Again I ask, have you ever actually read it? Or are you just basing your opinion off of a predetermined opinion that is both unfounded and ignorant?

No one is saying that all fantasy has to be like Tolkien. It's not. But the majority of fantasy writers DO rip him off. It's just a fact of life. His version of Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Men, etc lives on today in basically every major fantasy series. Including that god awful Eragon series.

Yes, Mario was important. He created the blueprint for modern gaming. It doesn't make me particularly mad that people rip him off, anymore than it does that fantasy series rip off Tolkien. If you're going to copy something, at least make it the best possible thing to rip off.


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## SophisTEAcated (Jan 31, 2013)

Colonel Awesome said:


> Majora's Mask moon might not have even been the real moon. It turned into a rainbow or some shit. Plus, technical limitations should be factored into how everything was depicted on screen. We all know objects aren't supposed to fall that apparently slow, _inching _towards the town, but that's how it was depicted likely due to technical limitations.



That doesn't actually matter. Because it's still the shown feats. Unless it was said otherwise by word of god or retconned later. Which it wasn't, so there you go.

Majora's Moon = tiny in comparison to our own moon.

As for it "not being the real moon" then why did everyone call it the moon and freak out? Unless everyone was overcome but a massive amount of stupid (not denying the possibility) we have to go by what they said and what we saw. And given the Moon's appearance in other media (like SSB and such) without being any larger, we can safely assume it wasn't technical limitations. And if it was, the size is now canon.




Colonel Awesome said:


> I shall reiterate, why is it really such an unreasonable assumption to assume it's basically a fictional version of earth in the universe unless there is a plot point that needs to point out that they're not? In Chronicles of Narnia as you just mentioned, there was, with constellations being warrior people. Not in Zelda. Zelda =/= Narnia.
> 
> And again, in Wind Waker, you can find real life constellations in the night sky.



Because Link has never seen anything outside of the moon that would indicate it is our universe. Having done some research it appears the the Golden Goddesses came from some "distant nebula" and created Hyrule. This seems to indicate that some or all of the universe was in existence before they came to create the planet and nearby dimensions.

And again, seeing the constellations does not mean they are actual full sized stars. This was an argument discussed about Mario Galaxy. In many Galaxy back grounds you see full sized celestial bodies. But because we never see these "up close" or have any mention of them made, it's considered unquantiable and therefore irrelevant.



Colonel Awesome said:


> And as for LotR being in real life, don't kid me with that. I know what WoG was, but it would have to be a _fictional version_ of real life. Obviously, the planet was never flat at any point in real life history, nor is there any such thing as magic. It's a _fictional version_ of real life. Just like almost everything ever.
> 
> We can get input from other forum members, but I think it's reasonable to assume it's a regular universe (as a whole) unless a plot point needs to point out that it's not. Otherwise, the in-universe universe as a whole being smaller or drastically different probably in some way never even crossed the creator's mind.



And who would be naive enough to assume that LotR is real? I'm well aware this is fiction. But because that fiction is alternate history for our own, the basic rules apply. You can argue that Tolkien didn't know about multiverses or whatever, but he did know the universe we live in. Which, as of now, is far greater than what the Golden Goddesses did.

Also sorry for double post


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## Solrac (Jan 31, 2013)

SophisTEAcated said:


> That would be true, if the God in question had created multiple universes at once. But technically we have evidence that even shows that Aslan created those other universes, it's just implied heavily. So Eru>Aslan in creation feats, but because they both = omnipotent they are equal.
> 
> And I don't particularly care what your opinion is, I care about facts. And facts say that Narnia gets stomped.



Meh. Whatever you say. 

But if there are other notable verses/chars that should stomp or top LotR by feats or logic, then facts will be facts too.

So let's just leave it at that.   



> You keep saying you have nothing against it, like that's some magic catchphrase that will stop me from being offended. The fact is that you do have something against it, as you prove in your held back antagonism
> 
> Again I ask, have you ever actually read it? Or are you just basing your opinion off of a predetermined opinion that is both unfounded and ignorant?



Hey man, no need to grill me... I was just casually stating it was never my cup of tea, but at the same time I do not necessarily hate it to death (and in addition, that there are other series/verses I love more than it, fantasy or not). I was just giving my impression on LotR based on all the stuff I hear or know about it from others. Not everyone is a bookworm, you know. 



> No one is saying that all fantasy has to be like Tolkien. It's not. But the majority of fantasy writers DO rip him off. It's just a fact of life. His version of Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Men, etc lives on today in basically every major fantasy series. Including that god awful Eragon series.
> 
> Yes, Mario was important. He created the blueprint for modern gaming. It doesn't make me particularly mad that people rip him off, anymore than it does that fantasy series rip off Tolkien. If you're going to copy something, at least make it the best possible thing to rip off.



I wasn't talking about being mad that someone ripped him off, but at the fanboys of the "rip-off" series who make fun of and show no appreciation for the "original" that their favorite series's author/creator ripped off.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jan 31, 2013)

No way is Narnia a better story than Lord of the Rings.


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## Solrac (Jan 31, 2013)

Edit - 

Nevermind...

anyways, I abstain from this thread any longer after having pages of fun debating. I still stand by my views on which verse wins this fight and neither side will sway to each other and it's all coming down to "but Eru created OUR universe lolololololololol", so let's just leave this thread.


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## TehChron (Jan 31, 2013)

Pecola said:


> Edit -
> 
> Nevermind...
> 
> anyways, I abstain from this thread any longer after having pages of fun debating. I still stand by my views on which verse wins this fight and neither side will sway to each other and it's all coming down to "but Eru created OUR universe lolololololololol", so let's just leave this thread.



Only because._some People_ keep insisting that the golden goddesses are equivalent to him.

And then not bothering with debating the feats of the Tolkienverse.

Ungoliath alone could solo most Zelda games.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Jan 31, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Only because._some People_ keep insisting that the golden goddesses are equivalent to him.
> 
> And then not bothering with debating the feats of the Tolkienverse.
> 
> Ungoliath alone could solo most Zelda games.



And why aren't they equivalent? They created at least two universes (the one Hyrule is in, and the parallel universe with Termina), along side other dimensions (the Twilight Realm, the Sacred Realm, etc).

What has he done that is so much greater?



SophisTEAcated said:


> That doesn't actually matter. Because it's still the shown feats. Unless it was said otherwise by word of god or retconned later. Which it wasn't, so there you go.
> 
> Majora's Moon = tiny in comparison to our own moon.



On a modern game, the scene would certainly have been improved. Are you really trying to tell me that the moon actually was only falling at like what seemed to be like, 4 feet per second?



> As for it "not being the real moon" then why did everyone call it the moon and freak out? Unless everyone was overcome but a massive amount of stupid (not denying the possibility) we have to go by what they said and what we saw. And given the Moon's appearance in other media (like SSB and such) without being any larger, we can safely assume it wasn't technical limitations. And if it was, the size is now canon.



SSB is non-canon to the Zeldaverse. 




> Because Link has never seen anything outside of the moon that would indicate it is our universe. Having done some research it appears the the Golden Goddesses came from some "distant nebula" and created Hyrule. This seems to indicate that some or all of the universe was in existence before they came to create the planet and nearby dimensions.



Distant nebula? I've never heard of that, and I've played all of the home console games. Source? 



> And again, seeing the constellations does not mean they are actual full sized stars. This was an argument discussed about Mario Galaxy. In many Galaxy back grounds you see full sized celestial bodies. But because we never see these "up close" or have any mention of them made, it's considered unquantiable and therefore irrelevant.



And that's Super Mario Galaxy, not Zelda.

And we don't see these things up close because yes, they are irrelevant. All that matters in the games is what's going on in the story, not if the stars in the sky are actual stars. But again, since there is _no _indication that they're _not _normal stars in the sky, the base assumption should be that they are, well, normal stars in the sky. In a galaxy, in the universe. 



> And who would be naive enough to assume that LotR is real? I'm well aware this is fiction. But because that fiction is alternate history for our own, the basic rules apply. You can argue that Tolkien didn't know about multiverses or whatever, but he did know the universe we live in. Which, as of now, is far greater than what the Golden Goddesses did.
> 
> Also sorry for double post



And Nintendo wouldn't know about the universe? Fictions of any kind are almost always reflections of real life. Obviously magic doesn't exist, but that is beside the point, which is why would the _entire _universe the Zelda world is in be restricted to one measly planet? We can see real life constellations in the sky for crying out loud. The planet has a moon, and there is a sun. Not _everything _about a given universe needs to be spoon fed to the audience, these are things we should know from the start.


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## Cygnus45 (Feb 1, 2013)

After reviewing both sides, this is my take on the cosmic side of things:

If a story was written in the 90's and especially the 2000's, everybody and their mom knows that the Earth is round, that it circles the sun, and that there are at least "millions" of stars and that the universe is "really big". _Everybody_ knows this and it is the most basic information taught to _everyone_ who's taken even one semester of grade school science.

Given this FACT, I will not tolerate the argument "oh, the creator didn't know about galaxies or black holes, blah blah," for any series written within the last 15 years (unless it's obvious that the cosmos are _clearly_ not based on reality, like Greek Mythology's Helios pulling the sun in a chariot).

Now to address the feats mentioned:



> "Before time began and before spirits and life existed, the universe was in chaos. The three Golden Goddesses descended upon the chaos and began the creation of of the world, each of them creating a different facet of the realm. Din created the material realm, Nayru gave the realm law and order, and Farore created all life forms who would follow the said order."



^Assuming this a canon narration, this clearly alludes to the GG's (golden goddesses) being beings (excuse the pun) of a higher plane and forging the physical universe. 

-"Before time began"--which means they originated the concept of time, a fundamental property of our own universe.

-"Material realm"--physical universe

-"law and order"--laws of physics

-"life forms"--self explanatory. also implies that the creatures have souls, but i'll let someone more versed in LoZ address this.

If my analysis is correct, this means the GG's are at least skyfather level individually and easily universe level while pooling their resources. I know Eru is based on the Christian God, but unless he's stated to be omnipotent in canon, he simply isn't. Singing the universe into existence is a great feat, but Silver Age Superman sneezed away a galaxy and even he was only low-mid skyfather level at best and weaker than Spectre.

Going with that thought, IF the GG's really are skyfather level than they probably do stalemate Eru and this battle is decided upon by the lower tiers:



billy3 said:


> With regards to this VS, involving Omnis kinda of takes the fun out of it (unstoppable force vs unmovable object scenario).


 
Couldn't agree more.



Colonel Awesome said:


> In the Golden Goddesses' defense, we can't know for sure how big most of the dimensions they created are. Asserting that they're only small is asserting to have certain knowledge that you can't have given the ambiguity. *It's never touched upon probably because it doesn't matter*.



Exactly. Grade school science.



> In Wind Waker's night sky, for example, you can find (IIRC) some real-life star constellations, which has its own implications I hope I don't need to elaborate on.



So clearly the programmers wanted to emphasize that this was an entirely different dimension (i.e, UNIVERSE) by putting constellations in the sky. The people who would notice that they're actual constellations are very few and not worth worrying about.



> On a modern game, the scene would certainly have been improved. Are you really trying to tell me that the moon actually was only falling at like what seemed to be like, 4 feet per second?



Laws of physics are thrown out when magic that can MAKE A MOON DROP is involved.


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## Cygnus45 (Feb 1, 2013)

Wizard said:


> Yeah but Lord of the Rings is a younger universe than our current times. *Did Tolkien even know about the expanding universe and everything*? Its not like Link would have to go to every galaxy to fight, since Tolkien didn't write about it.



Who cares? He knew enough to make it clear LOTR is based on the real world and normally obeys the laws of physics.

As for Link needing to go to other galaxies, he might have to given that the Maiar and other creatures live in alternate dimensions and galaxies. 



> The Maiar, for instance, are incorpeal spirits of pure energy. Gandalf was one of these given physical form



Do the LoZ people have any weapons or amulets that can reveal these beings or harm them? I know Link has a sword that harms evil beings, but apparently not all of them are evil. And there are going to be tons of them to deal with.



> Another of what men call "wizards" was Radagast, who may have been a shape/color shifter. Though outside of the noncanon movie, his powers remain unclear.



Could you elaborate on his feats outside the movies? Having a shapeshifter can drastically alter the course of a battle:

[YOUTUBE]h6XQL8VmMPU[/YOUTUBE]



> Then there is Uinen, a Maiar of the sea, who could calm the wrath of the ocean because Osse, her lover, was their master and could cause great storms around them.



I don't remember any weather manipulators in Zelda verse. Do they have any cause you can pretty much wipe out any army with weather.



> Melian, another Maiar, created a massive shield around a city/forest. It caused all who wandered into it to become lost in a maze and, eventually, starve. Only those who were more powerful than her or were permitted could pass through, and only 2 ever did without her wanting to.



Probably only people with a triforce piece could get out of that trap.



> Balrogs are "once-Maiars" who attuned themselves to the song of Melkor rather than Eru. They are creatures of fire and shadow, reaching over 20 feet tall, and projecting an aura of fear that represents some form of mind rape (albeit a low level). When the Balrog fought Gandalf in Fellowship of the Ring, their battle killed both of them and broke the side of the mountain (specifically, Gandalf casting him down broke the mountain) which gives you an indication of BOTH their powers.



Oh so that's what that thing was Gandalf fought. An army of these things would spell doom for LoZ ground troops (given that Link has to do all the fighting 90% of the time, they're likely peak human fodder). Not sure about Ganon's minions, but if the entire verse is united it could tip the scales.



> Ungoliant, another evil Maiar. She birthed all the giant spiders of Mirkwood and Shelob (who deserve their own respect stuff but I'm already getting tired of writing ) *She could eat light and weave webs of shadows that no light could pass through but that she could move around in. Which is freaking beast, and would make fighting her nigh impossible*. She also grew so huge and powerful that she cast down Melkor, and it took the aforementioned horde of Balrogs to subdue her and help Melkor escape. She was not killed by this, impressively enough.



I don't see what LoZ could do against her--given that Melkor is stronger than Sauron via powerscaling.

As a side-note, I love the bolded part. Someone should make an OBD profile of her.



> Sauron is the most powerful of the Maiar according to most accounts, growing so powerful he could have challenged the Valar. He could, in his early years, cast powerful illusions and change his form easily and at will.



So he's Tolkein's version of the Abrahamic Devil. 



> But the Maiar are lesser spirits. The Valar are the truly powerful ones.



You probably don't need to elaborate. Things aren't looking so good for Zelda verse.


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## Poxbox (Feb 1, 2013)

Cygnus45 said:


> So he's Tolkein's version of the Abrahamic Devil.


That's Melkors part: being a fallen choir boy and sharing his taint with everyone.


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## billy3 (Feb 1, 2013)

Perhaps I'm wrong, but this is my take on this:

Eru >>> GG: Eru is clearly stated by Tolkien to be the prime mover of the LoTRverse, having created the Ainur with thought alone (no chaos/order or anything other Eru at that point).  The GG on the other hand created stuff out of the chaos that was already present (so not really prime movers then).

GG come off as more of a suped up analog to the Ainur, but are > Ainur because of the 3 GG essentially pulling off what it took an untold number of Ainur to do.  Note, the Ainur were *outside* of Ea (the uni/multi/whatever-verse) those that entered became the Valar/Maiar - again, another reason why the GG, who entered (or were they still outside, I forget) the chaos/dimension and started to shape it.

However, again, for this VS it's kind of pointless (and tangentile) to involve the Omni/Creator/Shaper level chars, and I doubt that was the OP's intent.  In fact the only reason we should even consider letting the Valar and Maiar in the VS is that they have physical forms.

Just my 2 cents.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Feb 1, 2013)

billy3 said:


> Perhaps I'm wrong, but this is my take on this:
> 
> Eru >>> GG: Eru is clearly stated by Tolkien to be the prime mover of the LoTRverse, having created the Ainur with thought alone (no chaos/order or anything other Eru at that point).  The GG on the other hand created stuff out of the chaos that was already present (so not really prime movers then).
> 
> ...



When it was said that there was only chaos, we really don't even know what that's supposed to mean. But either, they created everything. They created the physical/material world, the laws of physics (including time itself), life, and other realms (sacred realm, twilight realm, etc) and at least one parallel universe to the main universe (Termina). 

But yeah, honestly, I would rather this thread be about the lesser forces of each verse and not their omnipotents, because when it comes down to whose resident omnipotent(s) is better, that's just boring.


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## Linkofone (Feb 1, 2013)

Look, even in the Bible it said that, 

*"2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness."
*
That is almost exactly like what the the situation that the Golden Goddesses had. The Chaos is just darkness. The Goddesses created everything in the Legend of Zelda universe, thus are the "God Trinity" of LOZ.

Happy now guys? Can we stop arguing about this?!


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## Solrac (Feb 1, 2013)

^ I agree... trying to go into arguments with a verses's fictional omnipotent claiming them to be = to the Abrahamic God/Yahweh/Elohim or any notable omnipotent religious/real-life deity or entity or thing is just trying to stir more piles of crap up.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Feb 1, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> Look, even in the Bible it said that,
> 
> *"2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, ?Let there be light,? and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness."
> *
> ...



That was after he created the universe....


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## Linkofone (Feb 1, 2013)

The Golden Goddesses, also known as the *Old Gods*, are Din, the Goddess of Power, Nayru, the Goddess of Wisdom, and Farore, the Goddess of Courage, the chief gods and creators of the land that becomes the Kingdom of Hyrule and the extended world that it resides in. *It is understood that the Golden Goddesses have always existed*, and that *they are omnipotent and eternal*.

From Wiki.

They created everything, descended from above and then created Earth and its inhabitants.


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## SophisTEAcated (Feb 8, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> The Golden Goddesses, also known as the *Old Gods*, are Din, the Goddess of Power, Nayru, the Goddess of Wisdom, and Farore, the Goddess of Courage, the chief gods and creators of the land that becomes the Kingdom of Hyrule and the extended world that it resides in. *It is understood that the Golden Goddesses have always existed*, and that *they are omnipotent and eternal*.
> 
> From Wiki.
> 
> They created everything, descended from above and then created Earth and its inhabitants.



So my internet sucks. But I'm back. Not sure if this counts as necro but oh well. I still have some points to deal with.

Yes, the wiki. Now, where in any canon source does it state that? I looked throughout the wiki for some source of them being "omnipotent" but it seems to be an assumption.

The "Distant Nebula" is from the Link to the Past prologue.

As for Eru's implied omnipotence or at least supreme power:


*Spoiler*: __ 



"But Rmil said: 'Ilvatar was the first beginning, and beyond that no wisdom of the Valar or of Eldar or of Men can go.' 'Who was Ilvatar?' asked Eriol. 'Was he of the Gods?' 'Nay,' said Rmil, 'that he was not, for he made them. Ilvatar is the Lord for Always who dwells beyond the world; who made it and is not of it nor in it, but loves it.' " ― The Book of Lost Tales Part One, "The Music of the Ainur" 





*Spoiler*: __ 



 This doesn't necessarily apply, but it explains a bit about him
Ilvatar (pron. N [iˈluːvatar], V [iˈluːβatar]) is Quenya for "the Father of All", more commonly referred to as Eru.

The name Ilvatar is a compound of two words, ilu and ilv "universe" and atar "father."

It is to be noted that in earlier works of the legendarium the name Ilvatar meant "Sky-father" since the element il- refers also to the sky (cf. Ilmen), but this etymology was dropped in favour of the newer meaning in later revisions. Ilvatar was also the only name of God used in earlier versions  the name Eru first appeared in the Annals of Aman.[2]





*Spoiler*: __ 



http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Il%C3%BAvatar




The above link contains some important info about Eru Illuvatar's existence as claimed by his creator. That is, being the monotheistic (Catholic) God that Tolkien worshipped IRL. Tolkien even discusses this with another Catholic in one of the sections of this article.

And finally: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?295128-Questions-on-Eru-Il%FAvatar




The above link leads to a forum discussing Eru's representation as the monotheistic, largely Christian God. It contains quotes from Tolkien himself regarding this question. Read especially "Reddhawk" posts.

And now, regarding the creation of the world... I'm afraid I phrased it incorrectly. Eru Illuvatar did not directly create the world. Rather he made the Ainur (Remember how the Maiar are lesser spirits? Here's the big boys) with his thoughts. The Ainur then, after he taught them, sang for him. This created the universe as we know it, in the Void. Melkor sang against the others, and so the creation was imperfect. BUT it is implied (basically stated) that Eru Illuvatar intended this to happen when he showed the Ainur what had happened.

The Ainur saw what each of them had created (Ainur basically being Pokemon, each representing an aspect of the world, albeit in a more abstract, god-like manner) and the history of the world. Except the end, which Eru Illuvatar hid from them. (This made many of them restless) And so after that, Eru remained removed from the history of the world, excluding during the Return of the King and when he sank the Numenorian island Sauron was on (mentioned previously)

In another discussion between two people, an Elf says he believes Eru will remove evil from the world. The woman he is talking to (human I believe) points out that an infinite being could not come into a finite space like Arda/Earth without destroying it. The Elf admits he doesn't know exactly how it will happen, but he believes it will.

If that story doesn't scream "Jesus Christ" at your face, you need to go back to reading Inheritance books.



> So he's Tolkein's version of the Abrahamic Devil.


Not really. Melkor is more the equivalent of Lucifer in this. Think of Sauron as being more like an extremely powerful demon. I think I mentioned this, but he was one of the few Maiar who became almost as powerful/as powerful as a Valar.



> Oh so that's what that thing was Gandalf fought. An army of these things would spell doom for LoZ ground troops (given that Link has to do all the fighting 90% of the time, they're likely peak human fodder). Not sure about Ganon's minions, but if the entire verse is united it could tip the scales.


Originally there were many legions of these beings, but that was later retconned by Tolkien, who said there would only have been 7 to 10 of them (including one super powerful lord of the balrogs guy) in history. Nevertheless, 7 guys who can smash the side of a mountain, duel with Gandalf, and fight for days on end could take down most of the armies of Hyrule singlehandedly. As you said, mostly peak human fodder. Gorons, maybe large numbers of Ganon's troops, and some of the higher boss characters would be able to take them probably. Make like the Imperial Guard: hit them with enough flashlights and they're sure to die...



> Could you elaborate on his feats outside the movies? Having a shapeshifter can drastically alter the course of a battle:


Like I said, they're unclear, sadly. We know he is close to Gandalf's power, though it is clear he is inferior overall. He is a "master of shapes and shifting hues" so make of that what you will.



> Who cares? He knew enough to make it clear LOTR is based on the real world and normally obeys the laws of physics.
> 
> As for Link needing to go to other galaxies, he might have to given that the Maiar and other creatures live in alternate dimensions and galaxies.


Not to mention Melkor being outside creation in the Void, and the Ainur being able to leave if they decide to. And his knowledge of black holes/anti matter/wtf ever doesn't really matter here, does it? Those things would scarcely improve the power of LotR, given the high tier BAMFs we're talking about here...



> ^Assuming this a canon narration, this clearly alludes to the GG's (golden goddesses) being beings (excuse the pun) of a higher plane and forging the physical universe.
> 
> -"Before time began"--which means they originated the concept of time, a fundamental property of our own universe.
> 
> ...



I listed above how he's considered the mythic equivalent of God in this series, a God Tolkien believed omnipotent. He's also shown as omnipotent, or at the very least the guy who made people to sing the universe into existence for him.

The main problem with the 3GGs (applying to the deity trio, not my trio of Starcraft losses the other day) is that they are shown to create a planet, after coming from a "distant nebula" as stated in Link to the Past/Ocarina of Time. 

"Beginning of time" in this instance seems to more indicate the beginning of Hyrule's time, rather than time in general. Same with the other creation feats. Celestial bodies were apparently around back before Hyrule, if the 3GGs came from a "distant nebula" or alternatively "the heavens." Traditionally, "the heavens" implies space/the sky/whatever the hell is above us. Now let's go over the Ocarina of Time cinematic (the best example we have of the creation of Hyrule)



> In the beginning, before time began, before spirts and life existed
> The Golden Goddesses descended upon the chaos that was Hyrule


Keeping in line with what I said above, this seems to indicate that the Deku Tree is referring strictly to Hyrule in terms of spirits/life existing, as well as time. (without matter, what is time, after all? time is the measure of change in matter)



> Here it lists the 3 goddesses and what they each represent.
> Din... with her strong flaming arms, cultivated the land and created the red earth
> Naryu... Poured her wisdom onto the earth and gave the spirit of law to the world
> Farore... With her rich soul, produced all life forms who would uphold the law
> The three goddesses, their labors completed, departed for the heavens...


Then blahblah they left the Triforce.

Now first off, I'll avoid saying they never showed them creating anything other than Hyrule/maybe the sun, as Colonel Awesome said, graphical limitations.

But they never, in any way shape or form, implied that the 3GGs created space, the stars, etc. In fact, taking the "distant nebula/the heavens" into account, it seems more like they came from space to create Hyrule, then left to go back to space. If they did create any other celestial bodies, I am unaware of it.

Again: the chaos that was Hyrule is the key phrase. Hyrule is not a universe, it may not even be an entire planet. We assume it is because there's no direct evidence to the contrary. But based off of what we've seen, and more importantly what was stated, the 3GGs created Hyrule, and its parallels. They did not, as far as I can see, create the universe. No mention is made of the stars, or other heavenly bodies, being formed. Only the "red earth" the creatures, and the "law" (if everyone is in agreement that that implies the laws of physics, fine)

I may have missed something. But that seems to me to be the truth. The 3GGs top out at solar system level with a decent amount of hax, unless one of you knows something I don't (very likely)

tl;dr - 3GGs should be put against the Ainur or the Valar or something, not Eru.


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## Solrac (Feb 8, 2013)

^ was bumping this thread really necessary?

anyways I'm not saying the GG's win against Eru, but they are definitely at least a bit more than just solar-system level.


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## SophisTEAcated (Feb 8, 2013)

Pecola said:


> ^ was bumping this thread really necessary?
> 
> anyways I'm not saying the GG's win against Eru, but they are definitely at least a bit more than just solar-system level.



Very much so. Several people still had questions that needed answering, and I felt that the overall outcome wasn't entirely decided.

Where is the evidence for that statement, though? I can't find anything that would indicate that they're past solar system level + hax. The LoZ community assumes they're omnipotent (as the wiki says) without providing any real evidence to support it. Similarly, it has never been stated or even strongly implied that the 3GGs are supposed to represent God/the Trinity. Whereas Eru Illuvatar has...

I'm just saying, it seems like they're assumed to be waaaay more powerful than they are shown to be.


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## Solrac (Feb 8, 2013)

^ how about we just agree to disagree and end the debate already? i've already moved on from this thread a while ago.


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## SophisTEAcated (Feb 8, 2013)

Pecola said:


> ^ how about we just agree to disagree and end the debate already? i've already moved on from this thread a while ago.



Agree to disagree on what? The nature of the 3GGs? Because I can't really move on from that until it is firmly decided. I would like the stats to be accurate for all the characters involved, for future debate reference.

Not to mention, it makes the job of OBD wiki members easier if the debators present factual information.


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## Cygnus45 (Feb 9, 2013)

You're using logical arguments and backing them up with proof. But you're still somehow unable to see that the same statements your making to defend LOTR, you're using to dismiss LoZ even though I just broke it down for you. That's what we call "bias". 

Obviously in the long run, LOTR would win due to superior overall power regardless of what the top tiers can do because the low and mid-tiers are in a league of their own compared to LoZ's. And that's all that matters (didn't really care about the cosmic stuff, but I had to address it). 

Thread can be locked.


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## Dandy Elegance (Feb 9, 2013)

I don't see how he's being biased at all.


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## SophisTEAcated (Feb 9, 2013)

Cygnus45 said:


> You're using logical arguments and backing them up with proof. But you're still somehow unable to see that the same statements your making to defend LOTR, you're using to dismiss LoZ even though I just broke it down for you. That's what we call "bias".
> 
> Obviously in the long run, LOTR would win due to superior overall power regardless of what the top tiers can do because the low and mid-tiers are in a league of their own compared to LoZ's. And that's all that matters (didn't really care about the cosmic stuff, but I had to address it).
> 
> Thread can be locked.



How so?

I think I've legitimately stated the case for the 3GGs being inferior to Eru, with no bias present. 

And actually, low tier LotR stuff is probably inferior or equal to LoZ stuff. Basically just fodder peak humans and whatnot.

Mid tier stuff is fairly close. High tier is where LotR rapestomps, and then top tier is what we've been discussing.


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