# Akainu vs Rayleigh



## Taijukage (Mar 6, 2014)

who would win this clash


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## Shanks (Mar 6, 2014)

Akainu edges it.


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## Lawliet (Mar 6, 2014)

Akainu.
______________


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## Imagine (Mar 6, 2014)

Any Admiral should be capable of beating Ray.


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## Shanks (Mar 6, 2014)

Imagine said:


> Any Admiral should be capable of beating Ray.



Beat, Yes. Beat more times out of 10, No. Akainu is the only one that can confidently say he will win more times out of 10 depending on mindset and situation, but regardless it should get push between very high to extreme difficulties.


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## 2Broken (Mar 6, 2014)

Sabo said:


> Beat, Yes. Beat more times out of 10, No. Akainu is the only one that can confidently say he will win more times out of 10 depending on mindset and situation, but regardless it should get push between very high to extreme difficulties.



Nah any admiral beats Rayleigh 10 out of 10 times. It might be different if Rayleigh was in his prime, but as he is now he stands no chance.


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## Butters (Mar 6, 2014)

^Based on what?


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## Imagine (Mar 6, 2014)

Sabo said:


> Beat, Yes. Beat more times out of 10, No. Akainu is the only one that can confidently say he will win more times out of 10 depending on mindset and situation, but regardless it should get push between very high to extreme difficulties.


Says what?


Butters said:


> ^Based on what?


Based on Ray admitting himself that he was having trouble keeping up with Kizaru.


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## Venom (Mar 6, 2014)

Ray holds his own for a while but eventually loses


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## Butters (Mar 6, 2014)

^^He never admitted anything like that.

He only suggested that he would have been capable of handling more than Kizaru alone in his heyday.


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## Imagine (Mar 6, 2014)

Which suggests that he wouldn't be capable of doing so as his present self.


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## Butters (Mar 6, 2014)

It suggests that he can't take out Kuma and Sentomaru while simultaneously fending off an admiral.

Not that he would lose to said admiral.


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## Imagine (Mar 6, 2014)

Except he would otherwise he wouldn't have said so. Kizaru was his one and only target at the time.


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## monkey d ace (Mar 6, 2014)

akainu high diff.


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## Butters (Mar 6, 2014)

What? The man said that he wanted to help the Strawhats (who were being dispatched by Kuma and Sentomaru), but couldn't have done so because he wasn't as young as he used to be.

Absolutely nothing suggests he would have lost to Kizaru, only that he couldn't have handled multiple opponents alongside him.


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## 2Broken (Mar 6, 2014)

Butters said:


> ^Based on what?



Rayleigh was tired after engaging Kizaru in combat for a relatively small amount of time, even though Kizaru switched to swordplay. (which seems to be Rayliegh's forte)

The admirals can fight clear over a weak and they sure as hell can range Rayleigh if they want. Conclusion is that Rayleigh no longer has what it take to beat an admiral.


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## Butters (Mar 6, 2014)

He only panted a couple of times and was shown in the next panel not struggling or exerting himself at all.

Shit, Kizaru was panting the same way Rayleigh did right off the bat when they clashed weapons. It's pretty common in this manga, actually. 

Fact is he was clashing with an admiral equally. We don't know how that fight would have went if it were prolonged and stop acting like you do.


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## Imagine (Mar 6, 2014)

Except we do know otherwise Ray wouldn't have commented on his own stamina.


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## Butters (Mar 6, 2014)

Seems like it's a trend on this forum to make stuff up when you don't have any factual evidence.

Show me where Rayleigh ever said that he has poor stamina and therefore had trouble keeping up aside from panting twice during their fight, which say nothing about his stamina because *Kizaru also panted when they clashed at first. *


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## 2Broken (Mar 6, 2014)

Butters said:


> He only panted a couple of times and was shown in the next panel not struggling or exerting himself at all.



Ok



Butters said:


> Shit, Kizaru was panting the same way Rayleigh did right off the bat when they clashed weapons. It's pretty common in this manga, actually.



I don't remember Kizaru showing any kind of fatigue in that fight. Show me the panel where Kizaru is panting, if he looks tired i'll concede.



Butters said:


> Fact is he was clashing with an admiral equally. We don't know how that fight would have went if it were prolonged and stop acting like you do.



He was fighting with an admiral equally for a short amount of time. We know Jozu can do that and he would lose 10 out of 10 to any admiral. The fight would have went how Oda wanted it to go, but in the battledome we speculate on matchups and thats what I did.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 6, 2014)

Akainu mid-high. Rayleigh doesn't have what it takes to beat an Admiral in his old age.
@ Butters
No, Kizaru wasn't panting, he just said "phew" once when Rayleigh cut him, after that, it was clear as day that Rayleigh was the one getting tired, not Kizaru.


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## Gibbs (Mar 6, 2014)

Is this Prime Rayleigh?


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## Butters (Mar 6, 2014)

Bottom right panel. He doesn't look particularly tired, but neither does Rayleigh . The two scenes have one thing in common though; both characters were panting. I think you're just reading too much into it.

Yes, Rayleigh fought Kizaru equally only for a short amount of time, but how long he fought him doesn't matter. What matters is that they were clashing evenly, neither had the upper hand, and we don't _know_ how their skirmish would have went if prolonged. It's all subjective.


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## Goomoonryong (Mar 6, 2014)

Akainu high diff.


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## 2Broken (Mar 6, 2014)

Butters said:


> Bottom right panel. He doesn't look particularly tired, but neither does Rayleigh . The two scenes have one thing in common though; both characters were panting. I think you're just reading too much into it.



The difference between the two scenes are that Kizaru "panted" before he and Rayleigh even started fighting. He could not have been tired at all in that scene, so we agree on that. 

Rayliegh in his scene was actively fighting Kizaru and was panting through his sentence, while Kizaru wasn't. Put simply they were actively fighting each other and only Rayleigh was showing signs of fatigue and that is telling.



Butters said:


> Yes, Rayleigh fought Kizaru equally only for a short amount of time, but how long he fought him doesn't matter. What matters is that they were clashing evenly, neither had the upper hand, and we don't _know_ how their skirmish would have went if prolonged. It's all subjective.



I don't know how long the fight would have went, but if Rayleih was tiring after a short skirmish and Kizaru was fine, then it becomes obvious who would drop first. If you believe Kizaru has stamina like Akainu and Aokiji, the outcome becomes more clear.


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## Turrin (Mar 6, 2014)

Basing shit on pants is extremely laughable, when the characters who actually win the matches pant all the timem during the match. The fact of the matter is we don't know who would win between Old-Ray and Kizaru, but obviously Kizaru or Ray would at put  a fight no matter who lost. Prime-Ray on the other hand would decisively beat Kizaru, considering he suggest he could take Kizaru + Kuma + Pacifista + Sentomaru in his Prime. 

As for Akainu who knows who would win between him and ether incarnation of Ray, as we do not know how big of a gap there is between Akainu & Kizaru, to judge how Prime-Ray would perform, or whether Old-Ray would have been able to defeat Kizaru to judge how he'd perform. 

That's the simple truth of the matter.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 6, 2014)

Magma fist.

Also Kizaru>Ray.


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## hungrytrash (Mar 6, 2014)

I don't see a cut on Rayleigh's face...

I'd give it to Akainu, but Akainu would come out of it looking worse than he did after getting double quake punched.


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## Kid (Mar 6, 2014)

Akainu

there's really nothing to discuss here


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## Orca (Mar 6, 2014)

Akainu wins. The only people capable of beating Akainu IMO are Dragon,Shanks and probably Blackbeard.


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## Slenderman (Mar 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Basing shit on pants is extremely laughable, when the characters who actually win the matches pant all the timem during the match. The fact of the matter is we don't know who would win between Old-Ray and Kizaru, but obviously Kizaru or Ray would at put  a fight no matter who lost. Prime-Ray on the other hand would decisively beat Kizaru, considering he suggest he could take Kizaru + Kuma + Pacifista + Sentomaru in his Prime.
> 
> As for Akainu who knows who would win between him and ether incarnation of Ray, as we do not know how big of a gap there is between Akainu & Kizaru, to judge how Prime-Ray would perform, or whether Old-Ray would have been able to defeat Kizaru to judge how he'd perform.
> 
> That's the simple truth of the matter.



He'd literally one shot everybody there except for Kiz.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Prime-Ray on the other hand would decisively beat Kizaru, considering he suggest he could take Kizaru + Kuma + Pacifista + Sentomaru in his Prime.



That's ridicolous logic.



> _Rayleigh: *pant*... *pant*... It looks like they are having some serious trouble...!! / I would like to lend them my aid... but I'm not as young as I used to be... / *pant*_



Wanting to providing them assistance doesn't indicate that. Remember, the goal was to let the SH pirates escape from their predicament, not to catergorically defeat the marines there. All he needed to do was to at least occupy/provide enough interference to give them an opening. I don't think he weighed up the strength levels of every one there and was able to ascertain that quickly that a younger him could defeat all of them. Furthermore, he was an old man who wanted to help the new geneartion of pirates, especially Luffy who he deeply respected and saw traits of Roger in. He would have been more than happy to sacrifice his life there for that cause. 

His comments solely indicate that he was desperate to help them out as he saw were on the brink of complete anhiliation. It requires a massive amount of assumption to interept that as any indicator that a younger him would _defeat all four of them._





Also there's no's such panting from Borsalino. He react's with a _"Wheeew... "_, most likely a combination of his sarcy attitude and his surprise of Rayleigh attacking him whilst he went after the SH's.



> Kizaru: .........Wheeew... / Now, this is quite a fix...... And to think, I was feeling so pleasant when I arrived on this island, too...



=====================================================

OT: The facts are that Rayleigh was getting tired after a short (but high intensity) clash with Borsalino and after engaging in a combat style (swordplay) that was more to his favour than his opponent's. Odds are that Borsalino could have gone on to capture him had the need not existed to preserve vital marine resources for the upcoming confrontation with Whitebeard. And Sakazuki is generally regarded to be a tad stronger than Borsalino so there you go. 

Sakazuki takes this ten times out of ten. As do all the Admirals.


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## Coruscation (Mar 6, 2014)

Akainu wins, high difficulty and not a damn inch less. Rayleigh is someone who Garp stated they can't possibly take on at the same time as Whitebeard, they would suffer great losses if they tried to bring him, and Kizaru reinforced the truth of those words by implying that attempting to capture him with the Marines in their current state of preparation would be a bad idea. This is *not* a man who gets mid-diffed by a single Admiral. That would be the most grievous of underestimation. But up against the strongest and most ferocius and tenacious one of them while having to cope with the inevitable effects of old age and being out of practice he would not be able to win either.


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## Quuon (Mar 6, 2014)

Akainu wins this, Ray doesn't have it in him to contend with these stamina monsters for long anymore.


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2014)

Akainu wins extreme diff. Rayleigh is pretty much equal to Kizaru, just with a little stronger of an offence and a little weaker stamina.


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## Lord Melkor (Mar 6, 2014)

Akainu high difficulty.

Prime Rayleigh vs Prime Akainu could likely go either way.


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## Shanks (Mar 6, 2014)

So much retarded down-play in this thread on a legitimate top tier in the Dark King and people wonder why I was down-playing so hard on the Admirals a few months back.


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2014)

Akainu takes this high diff 10/10 times in a proper 1 on 1 fight

Also, Rayleigh's offence is not superior to Kizaru's


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## Halcyon (Mar 6, 2014)

Akainu high diff

Ray puts up a good fight though for his age

Prime wins high diff.


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Akainu takes this high diff 10/10 times in a proper 1 on 1 fight
> 
> Also, Rayleigh's offence is not superior to Kizaru's



Rayleigh was panting while Kizaru wasn't, which indicates that his stamina is weaker than Kizaru's. Kizaru was bleeding while Rayleigh wasn't, which indicates that either Rayleigh's offence is stronger or that Kizaru's defence is weaker. One can't just read into one of these facts and ignore the other.


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## Orca (Mar 6, 2014)

Dunno said:


> Rayleigh was panting while Kizaru wasn't, which indicates that his stamina is weaker than Kizaru's. Kizaru was bleeding while Rayleigh wasn't, which indicates that either Rayleigh's offence is stronger or that Kizaru's defence is weaker. One can't just read into one of these facts and ignore the other.



Kizaru got that cut when he was intercepted while chasing strawhats. So no.....


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## trance (Mar 6, 2014)

Rayleigh is no joke. He matched Kizaru strength for strength and was able to intercept him when he was just a split second away from killing Zoro. Nothing suggests he wields power and speed below an Admiral. That being said, however, he still loses this. He commented on how he wasn't as young as he used to be and panted in his fight with Kizaru. While some overrate this to absurd lengths, it should definitely not be dismissed. It showed that he can't fight a prolonged battle and against an opponent with monstrous stamina, like Akainu, he will eventually weaken as the fight continues for a long period of time and Sakazuki is also an opponent you can't put down easily.

Overall, Sakazuki wins high difficulty.

And Butters = Sakazuki (RG) confirmed.


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## Lawliet (Mar 6, 2014)

Sabo said:


> So much retarded down-play in this thread on a legitimate top tier in the Dark King and people wonder why I was down-playing so hard on the Admirals a few months back.



What do you mean? You trying to say there is so much Akainu (Admiral) wank in this thread?


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2014)

Dunno said:


> Rayleigh was panting while Kizaru wasn't, which indicates that his stamina is weaker than Kizaru's. Kizaru was bleeding while Rayleigh wasn't, which indicates that either Rayleigh's offence is stronger or that Kizaru's defence is weaker. One can't just read into one of these facts and ignore the other.



Kizaru was going for the SHs, as Luffee pointed out, and Rayleigh took the opportunity to intercept and cut him

If one truly does not ignore facts, then one should take note of the fact that Kizaru's devil fruit is one of the most destructive in the series, and he has levelled city-sized trees with absent-minded kicks. 

As far as on-panel showings are concerned, Kizaru has showcased the more impressive offensive arsenal, IMO


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## Rob (Mar 6, 2014)

Akainu probably has a chance at even Prime-Rayleigh...


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## trance (Mar 6, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Akainu probably has a chance at even Prime-Rayleigh...



Doubtful...


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## Rob (Mar 6, 2014)

Not at all. 

Not saying he would win for sure, but it's not impossible.


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## trance (Mar 6, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Not saying he would win for sure, but it's not impossible.



It wouldn't make sense. After Roger died, Rayleigh spent his days gambling, drinking and coating ships yet in spite of majorly slacking off 22 years and being rusty with his sword, there's no advantage Kizaru had over Rayleigh aside from greater stamina. 

Rayleigh was Roger's right hand. He was to Roger what Zoro is to Luffy. Garp was cautious not to provoke him because he was fully convinced of the threat Rayleigh posed. 

Prime Rayleigh only being on par with or slightly stronger than an Admiral doesn't make any sense when a decisively weaker Rayleigh was nearly equal with one.


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## Lawliet (Mar 6, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Doubtful...



Doubtful? You're saying the marines' new hero can't take on one of the legends from the previous generation? THAT'S doubtful.

Not saying Rayleigh is losing, just saying we don't really know who's winning at this point. Is akainu going to be luffy's last opponent? Is he going down sooner? When we have the answer to these questions, we'll know the answer to whether akainu can beat prime Rayleigh or not.


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## trance (Mar 6, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Doubtful? You're saying the marines' new hero can't take on one of the legends from the previous generation? THAT'S doubtful.
> 
> Not saying Rayleigh is losing, just saying we don't really know who's winning at this point. Is akainu going to be luffy's last opponent? Is he going down sooner? When we have the answer to these questions, we'll know the answer to whether akainu can beat prime Rayleigh or not.



So, the fact that a weaker Rayleigh was on par with a being of equal or near equal strength to Akainu isn't a hint that Rayleigh at his strongest should be beyond what he can handle? Are you serious?


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2014)

I think Akainu does have a shot at Prime Rayleigh 

Personally, I would assume that P. Ray would be on the same level as Shanks/Mihawk/Akainu, but that is a discussion for another time


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## Lawliet (Mar 6, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> So, the fact that a weaker Rayleigh was on par with a being of equal or near equal strength to Akainu isn't a hint that Rayleigh at his strongest should be beyond what he can handle? Are you serious?



So you're saying the person who might be luffy's final opponent , the future PK's final opponent got no chance at all? Awesome


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## trance (Mar 6, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> So you're saying the person who might be luffy's final opponent , the future PK's final opponent got no chance at all? Awesome



Based on current standings, he loses. Does he get stomped? No.


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## Lawliet (Mar 6, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Based on current standings, he loses. Does he get stomped? No.



You're not replying accordig to my points at all. You're just typing the same shit over and over. You can take this one Luke, I can't do this in my current state.


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Kizaru was going for the SHs, as Luffee pointed out, and Rayleigh took the opportunity to intercept and cut him



This is debatable. There is no evidence that points towards Kizaru getting that cut when he got intercepted other than common sense. 



Doflαmingo said:


> If one truly does not ignore facts, then one should take note of the fact that Kizaru's devil fruit is one of the most destructive in the series, and he has levelled city-sized trees with absent-minded kicks.
> 
> As far as on-panel showings are concerned, Kizaru has showcased the more impressive offensive arsenal, IMO



Yeah, I agree that Kizaru has shown much more destructive moves and that he almost certainly has superior aoe capabilities. I might have expressed myself unclearly or even faulty; What I meant with offensive capabilities was solely the ability to break through their opponent's defence, and not their overall offensive arsenal.


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## trance (Mar 6, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> You're not replying accordig to my points at all. You're just typing the same shit over and over. You can take this one Luke, I can't do this in my current state.



Because you're bringing up shit that is years down the road and is still in the works. So, just because he "might" be an EoS opponent, he's automatically stronger than Roger's right hand? Who says the EoS power levels are set in stone?


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2014)

> This is debatable. There is no evidence that points towards Kizaru getting that cut when he got intercepted other than common sense.



It was pretty clear cut(no pun intended). Kizaru was undergoing the process of light transmission to get to the SHs via Yata no Kagami, when Rayleigh came in and swiped him with his sword, cutting off the beam and stopping him. 




> Yeah, I agree that Kizaru has shown much more destructive moves and that he almost certainly has superior aoe capabilities. I might have expressed myself unclearly or even faulty; What I meant with offensive capabilities was solely the ability to break through their opponent's defence, and not their overall offensive arsenal.



That's fine, man. 

I sorta get what you are trying to say..that Rayleigh has more going for him in the lethality department? 

Of course, I do believe that as far as swordsmanship goes(and only swordsmanship), Rayleigh is probably better than Kizaru.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 6, 2014)

Dunno said:


> This is debatable. There is no evidence that points towards Kizaru getting that cut when he got intercepted other than common sense.



*Spoiler*: __ 







:ignoramus


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## Lawliet (Mar 6, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Because you're bringing up shit that is years down the road and is still in the works. So, just because he "might" be an EoS opponent, he's automatically stronger than Roger's right hand? Who says the EoS power levels are set in stone?



EOS power level are set in stone. Luffy will surpass roger. Zoro will surpass rayleigh , that's manga logic 101 
For akainu to be a threat to these people he'll also have to surpass certain people. Akainu being one of luffy's final opponents is not a possibility, but a fact at this point until something changes that fact.


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## trance (Mar 6, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> EOS power level are set in stone. Luffy will surpass roger. Zoro will surpass rayleigh , that's manga logic 101
> For akainu to be a threat to these people he'll also have to surpass certain people. Akainu being one of luffy's final opponents is not a possibility, but a fact at this point until something changes that fact.



Oh my god.


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## Shanks (Mar 6, 2014)

Honestly, the people who say The Dark King would lose around mid-difficulties or confidently lose 10/10 time to Akainu have the most retarded arguments ever.

Firstly, panting, whether that?s a sign of being tired or not, it actually doesn?t matter too much considering his fighting style. But that said, the panting panel is very vague as he?s shown no signs of fatigue later on.

Furthermore, we later know the Rayleigh got ship wrecked in a big storm on the Grand line and had to swim for a few days from the Grandline, through the calm belt with sea kings lurking and  with crazy weathers. This further proves he doesn?t have stamina issues, but is this feat better than the 10 days battle with Akainu & Aokiji, certainly not, but there?s nothing to prove that he can do it also. But more importantly, he doesn?t need monstrous stamina to defeat an opponent at his level. 

Rayleigh is a haki master and strong sword users. All he needs is an opening to finish of his opponent, just like how Zoro did to all his opponents pre-skip, which we can argue that Zoro?s opponents are the same level as him and the difficulties for those battles is between high ? extreme difficulties. Zoro vs. Ryuma would be very high difficulties despite a short encounter and Ryuma getting 1 shot.

That said, stamina should never be an issue when it comes down to a fight from Rayleigh. The Dark King needs so an opening to stab someone in the heard or behead them, or better yet cut them in half.

Then we also have arguments of Kizaru only using his sword to stalemate a swordsmen?s in Rayleigh at that time. This is very illogic. If you think about it carefully, if he used anything else at that time, the Marines would have being in a more disadvantage position:

?	Using light speed kick ? risk getting his leg cut off
?	Using lasers from a distance ? risk Rayleigh blocking with defensive CoA and proceed to 1-shit sentumaru.
?	Teleport away ? risk Rayleigh blitzing Kuma

Then we got arguments that Rayleigh is older now and should get the old man treatment, then again it doesn?t help to know that an old who?s being on medicine for a least a year is still the world?s strongest man, and the dark is hype up in the same breath a WB and Roger.

People generally make excuses for why Kizaru didn?t finish off the battle, because he?s saving strength for the WB war, which fair, but to say Admirals can mid dif him, but still need to save strength is retarded.

If Rayleigh felts that he was at a disadvantage when fighting Kizaru what so ever, he would not have risk his own life to escort Luffy back to Marine ford after the war is over knowing that he might have to face one of the top 5 Admiral level marines at we?ve seen in MF.

Another thing to consider is that when Rayleigh vs. Kizaru, he was 20+ years out of practice, but could still stalemate the fastest Admiral. Wouldn?t it be more logical to say Rayleigh is a lot more skilful now with 18 months of training under his belt over these two years?


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## Dunno (Mar 6, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> It was pretty clear cut(no pun intended). Kizaru was undergoing the process of light transmission to get to the SHs via Yata no Kagami, when Rayleigh came in and swiped him with his sword, cutting off the beam and stopping him.



Yeah, but the cut didn't appear until after they clashed, as you can see on the pictures TheTeaIsGood2 so kindly presented. I know we've had this discussion before and we'll probably not agree this time either, but I don't think it's certain that Kizaru got the cut on his cheek when Rayleigh intercepted him. 




Doflαmingo said:


> That's fine, man.
> 
> I sorta get what you are trying to say..that Rayleigh has more going for him in the lethality department?
> 
> Of course, I do believe that as far as swordsmanship goes(and only swordsmanship), Rayleigh is probably better than Kizaru.



Hm, not really lethality, since Kizaru's lasers seem pretty deadly if they manage to pierce you, but more like he's better at connecting with his opponent. Better at getting through their defences if you will. 



TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks


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## Magician (Mar 7, 2014)

Akainu should win this high diff.


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## Lawliet (Mar 7, 2014)

Not high diff , no


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## Mihawk (Mar 7, 2014)

Sabo:


Well, I don't think Rayleigh would get mid-diffed, but I do believe Akainu wins 10/10 times, if there are no externalities or other circumstances that come into play, meaning a fair fight.



> Honestly, the people who say The Dark King would lose around mid-difficulties or confidently lose 10/10 time to Akainu have the most retarded arguments ever.



I guess I don't belong in the former category.




> Firstly, panting, whether that’s a sign of being tired or not, it actually doesn’t matter too much considering his fighting style. But that said, the panting panel is very vague as he’s shown no signs of fatigue later on.



why doesn't it matter considering his fighting style, as a swordsman? Mind elaborating?

The point was that the fight didn't go on long enough for us to draw any conclusions of how his condition would have been a factor down the road. 



> Furthermore, we later know the Rayleigh got ship wrecked in a big storm on the Grand line and had to swim for a few days from the Grandline, through the calm belt with sea kings lurking and  with crazy weathers. This further proves he doesn’t have stamina issues, but is this feat better than the 10 days battle with Akainu & Aokiji, certainly not, but there’s nothing to prove that he can do it also. But more importantly, he doesn’t need monstrous stamina to defeat an opponent at his level.



Personally, I do not think that Rayleigh can fight an Admiral to a standstill for 10 days, as his portrayal of stamina doesn't seem to suggest that. I do think he can last several days, though I do not know how many.

Also, swimming across the Calm Belt is an impressive feat, and obviously he doens't have stamina issues in the realistic sense, when applied to human logic, as he is superhuman. However, I am positive that fighting an Admiral requires far more effort than slaying Sea Kings and swimming acros such a body of ocean. 




> Rayleigh is a haki master and strong sword users. All he needs is an opening to finish of his opponent, just like how Zoro did to all his opponents pre-skip, which we can argue that Zoro’s opponents are the same level as him and the difficulties for those battles is between high – extreme difficulties. Zoro vs. Ryuma would be very high difficulties despite a short encounter and Ryuma getting 1 shot.



I really don't think that one good slash from Rayleigh would be enough to finish off an Admiral. Now, you are downplaying the Admirals.



> That said, stamina should never be an issue when it comes down to a fight from Rayleigh. The Dark King needs so an opening to stab someone in the heard or behead them, or better yet cut them in half.



That kind of opening isn't really going to be easy to find in a 1 on 1 fight without any external factors....besides, there is no guarantee that he can cut off an Admiral's head or bisect them in half with just one clean slash. 



> Then we also have arguments of Kizaru only using his sword to stalemate a swordsmen’s in Rayleigh at that time. This is very illogic. If you think about it carefully, if he used anything else at that time, the Marines would have being in a more disadvantage position:



Why is it illogical? Kizaru used what he thought to be appropriate at the time, true; and Rayleigh's interception of his light transmission, proved that Kizaru wouldn't be able to beam himself around with his powers with Rayleigh keeping the distance between them minimum. However, Kizaru didn't really utilise the full capacity of his arsenal. 



> •	Using light speed kick – risk getting his leg cut off



You really think Rayleigh would be able to cut off his leg just like that?  I don't think so, especially when Borsalino's leg power seems to be comparable to Akainu's. We also know that if Sanji fought Zoro, Zoro wouldn't be able to just cut off his leg. 



> •	Using lasers from a distance – risk Rayleigh blocking with defensive CoA and proceed to 1-shit sentumaru.



We don't exactly know how strong Sentomaru is, and seeing how Kizaru would be extremely quick, Rayleigh wouldn't be able to just block him and then proceed to laying the smack down on Sento. Kizaru wouldn't allow that to happen. If he has enough time to carve out distance between them, he would have enough time to close in on Ray again. 



> •	Teleport away – risk Rayleigh blitzing Kuma



well, we already know that Rayleigh wouldn't exactly allow Kizaru to just teleport away. 



> Then we got arguments that Rayleigh is older now and should get the old man treatment, then again it doesn’t help to know that an old who’s being on medicine for a least a year is still the world’s strongest man, and the dark is hype up in the same breath a WB and Roger.



He was mentioned in the same vein, in the sense that he was a legend from the same era and generation. This doesn't automatically mean that he is as strong as WB. Whitebeard really shouldn't be used as someone to measure Ray's abilities with, since an old Ray is not WSM level. Also, I think that the "past his prime" arguments have more to do with the fact that he was inactive for over two decades, and had not picked up his sword, which is his main weapon and area of combat specialty, for over twenty years. 



> People generally make excuses for why Kizaru didn’t finish off the battle, because he’s saving strength for the WB war, which fair, but to say Admirals can mid dif him, but still need to save strength is retarded.



This is true, and I don't think any of them can mid-diff Rayleigh either. However, I also think that the reasoning for the Marines needing to be at their full strength for the war is less of an excuse, and more of a logical explanation. 



> If Rayleigh felts that he was at a disadvantage when fighting Kizaru what so ever, he would not have risk his own life to escort Luffy back to Marine ford after the war is over knowing that he might have to face one of the top 5 Admiral level marines at we’ve seen in MF.



The same goes for Jinbe, who was also one of luffy's escorts....

it's safe to assume that they had the element of surprise when they went to ring the Ox Bell, and the Marines were in the midst of reconstruction and recuperation after the war. Not everything is directly correlated to personal strength and powerlevels. 



> Another thing to consider is that when Rayleigh vs. Kizaru, he was 20+ years out of practice, but could still stalemate the fastest Admiral. Wouldn’t it be more logical to say Rayleigh is a lot more skilful now with 18 months of training under his belt over these two years?



He trained Luffy, and didn't undergo training himself. Still, I also thought of this in the past, and I do  believe that while there is now way he would get any stronger after the timeskip than he was before(due to his age not allowing him to grow anymore), he would at least have shaken off the rust and gotten into shape again, perhaps. 

However, we do not know, so to use these assumptions of a TS Rayleigh for this match, would be reaching too much. 



> Yeah, but the cut didn't appear until after they clashed, as you can see on the pictures TheTeaIsGood2 so kindly presented. I know we've had this discussion before and we'll probably not agree this time either, but I don't think it's certain that Kizaru got the cut on his cheek when Rayleigh intercepted him.



When a person is cut(think papercut) the skin opens, but the blood doesn't immediately start gushing out until seconds later. The interval and time which passed between Rayleigh's intervention and their clash was certainly short enough an interval for this explanation to make sense. 





> Hm, not really lethality, since Kizaru's lasers seem pretty deadly if they manage to pierce you, but more like he's better at connecting with his opponent. Better at getting through their defences if you will.



Ah I see


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## Shanks (Mar 7, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Sabo:
> 
> 
> 1. Well, I don't think Rayleigh would get mid-diffed, but I do believe Akainu wins 10/10 times, if there are no externalities or other circumstances that come into play, meaning a fair fight.
> ...



Oh, boy... Let me use your style of responding (in another thread) by numbering it to make things easier. 

1.	Why do you believe that Akainu or any Admiral could win 10/10 especially in matches when both parties (Akainu & Ray) both have the lethal power to end the battle with one hit given the right opportunity? We?re talking about 10 battles with different mindset in different locations and each of these battles will be push Akainu to at least high difficulties. Akainu was fully capable of letting his guard down when he got slash by Croc, blindside by WB and got cut by Marco and Vista from point blank. Imaging if that cut from from a Haki monster like Ray and not Vista? If this was Marco vs. Akainu, then we can probably agree that Akainu would win 10/10, because Marco will need to land lots of kicks and find lots of opening, but that is not the case for Ray.
2.	My point being, any fight with Ray shouldn?t and wouldn?t last for a few days regardless if he wins or lose, so you don?t need to have massive monstrous stamina to fight with the C3. 
To elaborate, during the battle of Zoro vs. Ryuma at Thriller Bark, Zoro didn?t get any injury and at the end he ended it with one hit, but Ryuma was virtually his equal and most would agree that they were on the same level. While Zoro won it with one hit and left completely unharmed, there was time that he was almost got KO?ed by Ryuma.

What level of difficulties was that? Based on how the battle played out, the were virtually equal from beginning to end, except for the final blow, it would very well be considered as very high or extreme difficulties, because it was certainly very very difficulty for Zoro to win that match.

This battle didn?t last for days despite they were portray to be on the same level. 

Vergo vs. Law, what difficulties is that? Law basically 1-shot Vergo, but it did not change the fact Law had to strategically put himself in that position to 1-shot by:
? Firstly engage in a physical battle with Vergo to made Vergo believe he is superior
? Delivering a countershock which did not faze Vergo what so ever and
? Finally, tanking a number of hits from Vergo and pretending to be down out and to made Vergo believe his full Haki form can tank Law?s room slash. 

Through that encounter, we can determine intellectually that Law would beat Vergo more time than not and the fight was virtually a high difficulties match and no matter how you look at it, those two were on the same level. And the battle certain didn?t last long.

My point, you don?t need the same level of stamina as your opponent to beat them, especially when your using a swords that capable of ending the battle given the opportunity (same goes with DF powers like the C3).

3.	He doesn?t need to as I elaborate it on point 2. Several days or less is more than enough to decide the battle between Ray and any of the top tiers in OP.
4.	Agree, though it doesn?t change my point. 
5.	I am in no way saying that he?s capable of easily landing 1 good shot on an Admiral. That luxurious, but in a bloodlust extended battle to the death and after a few days of stalemating, it?s inevitable that there will be opportunities. And Akainu will also need those opportunities to land lethal hits of Ray. Obviously, Ray/Akainu wouldn?t get that opportunity every time, that?s why I give Akainu the benefit of the doubt of winning more times out of 10.
It is in no way to downplaying the Admirals. Akainu got hit in MF. WB Got Hit. These guys are not CoO Gods.

6.	Based on battles of sword users previously, it is definitely possible and plausible that when you?re the same level as your opponent, while it?s difficulty to create an opening to land those types of hits, it?s definitely plausible based on the Ryuma and Vergo example.
7.	I think you?re misunderstanding me here. My point being there are people who down play Ray, but saying that Kizaru only used his sword against a strong sword user in Ray, therefore Kizaru is stronger overall if he used everything in his arsenal is illogical. What you said in this point indicates that we?re in agreement here.
8.	I said ?risk?. Of course it?s not easy, just like it wasn?t a walk in the park for Mihawk to slash Luffy. That said, it would be just as difficult for Kizaru to land a lighting kick on Ray, but the bigger difference is that a good sword slash can permanently scared you and Laser kick while strong haven?t really shown any permanent damage. 
9.	Ray glides and intercepted Kizaru?s light speed kicks indicating they have similar speed. If Kizaru keeps his distance, surely Ray could send an air slash elsewhere and vise versa, that?s why close combat sword fighting was necessary at that point.
10.	Yep.
11.	The point of my post is that the ?OLD MAN? argument is overused and illogical. Old WB was out of his prime and still decisively stronger than anyone at MF, while we do not know how strongest Ray was in his prime or how much he?s decreased in power and stamina. What we do know is that even when he?s given this old man treatment, he was still portray evenly with Kizaru and for people to say he will lose just because he?s out of his prime is baseless.
12.	Okay
13.	And? Jinbe knows that he won?t have to face those guys because Ray is there.
14.	True, but this was at Marine headquarters and Luffy took his time. Wouldn?t it be more logically to say that there would be an Admiral level fighter still at MF? Obviously Oda send them to do something else to avoid a big battle, but logically speaking it would be very likely that during the time Luffy ring the bell the C3, Sengoku or Garp would have more than enough time to get there if they were on the island.
15.	He train luffy and obviously would need to be hands on and would have gotten practice. While he won?t get ?Stronger?, he should be better off comparing to the Ray that didn?t do anything for 20+ years.
16.	We also don?t know if Kizaru got stronger or weaker during the timeskip either as he could get the old man treatment. After all, he should be in his 60s now?


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## trance (Mar 7, 2014)

> Why do you believe that Akainu or any Admiral could win 10/10 especially in matches *when both parties (Akainu & Ray) both have the lethal power to end the battle with one hit given the right opportunity?*



For this to happen, one would have to let their guard down or get distracted (CIS) and this won't happen  Matches are generally decided based on two things...

1.) Who is stronger/better
2.) Who has the matchup in their favor (I.e. location, intel, range, prep, etc.)

It seems this particular matchup leans towards the former since Akainu is generally considered a bit stronger than Rayleigh.


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## Mihawk (Mar 7, 2014)

> 1.	Why do you believe that Akainu or any Admiral could win 10/10 especially in matches when both parties (Akainu & Ray) both have the lethal power to end the battle with one hit given the right opportunity? We’re talking about 10 battles with different mindset in different locations and each of these battles will be push Akainu to at least high difficulties. Akainu was fully capable of letting his guard down when he got slash by Croc, blindside by WB and got cut by Marco and Vista from point blank. Imaging if that cut from from a Haki monster like Ray and not Vista? If this was Marco vs. Akainu, then we can probably agree that Akainu would win 10/10, because Marco will need to land lots of kicks and find lots of opening, but that is not the case for Ray.



I already clearly outlined that I believed he would beat Rayleigh 10/10 times in a *fair fight* with no external factors. I specifically said that. I think your trying to bring in all these other factors which I never alluded, to try to make my argument less credible. By a fair fight, I mean that they would always be in the same mindset, they would not fight in a location which would especially favor one or the other, and there would be no distractions, windows of opportunities, and outside interferences. 

All those examples you brought up, are pointless when directed to my post, because when Akainu was attacked by Croc, he was trying to finish off Jinbe. When he was quaked by WB, he was facing off with Marco, and Marco + Vista was a 2 V 1 combo which was also a blindside attack. These factors are all going to be absent in a clean 1 on 1 fight between Akainu & Rayleigh. 




> 2.	My point being, any fight with Ray shouldn’t and wouldn’t last for a few days regardless if he wins or lose, so you don’t need to have massive monstrous stamina to fight with the C3.
> To elaborate, during the battle of Zoro vs. Ryuma at Thriller Bark, Zoro didn’t get any injury and at the end he ended it with one hit, but Ryuma was virtually his equal and most would agree that they were on the same level. While Zoro won it with one hit and left completely unharmed, there was time that he was almost got KO’ed by Ryuma.



Zoro was given a very tough time, but he wasn't at full power, due to lacking 1 of his 3 swords, and not to mention, they are both swordsmen, whereas Akainu isn't. I don't see how Zoro V Ryuma is even remotely comparable here. 

Of course you need monstrous stamina and durability to fight the C3, if you are to keep up with them and try to outlast them. Rayleigh isn't going to be able to find an opening since both fighters would be very careful, and he won't cut them in one slash and just call it a day. That is not likely to happen in a 1 on 1 without any distractions.



> What level of difficulties was that? Based on how the battle played out, the were virtually equal from beginning to end, except for the final blow, it would very well be considered as very high or extreme difficulties, because it was certainly very very difficulty for Zoro to win that match.



I'd say it was high difficulty for sure. Despite being handicapped and exhausted at the end of the fight, Zoro wasn't too incredibly beat up or injured. 



> This battle didn’t last for days despite they were portray to be on the same level.



not necessarily, since Zoro didn't have all 3 swords to use for his Santoryu, and it doesn't seem like fighters at the level of Ryuma and EL Zoro are capable of fighting for several days, anyways. Ace & Jinbe, at the time of their fight, were equals and fought for 5 days. Their strength, stats overall, and stamina are obviously far superior to EL Zoro. 



> Vergo vs. Law, what difficulties is that? Law basically 1-shot Vergo, but it did not change the fact Law had to strategically put himself in that position to 1-shot by:
> • Firstly engage in a physical battle with Vergo to made Vergo believe he is superior
> • Delivering a countershock which did not faze Vergo what so ever and
> • Finally, tanking a number of hits from Vergo and pretending to be down out and to made Vergo believe his full Haki form can tank Law’s room slash.



you are fabricating these explanations based on their mindsets, which aren't even remotely applicable in Rayleigh VS Akainu, since Vergo wasn't stronger than Law anyways, and Law is meticulous.

 Nothing implies that Rayleigh has to rely on psychological warfare, which is not what Law used. 

Also, the aspects of their background came to play as well. Doflamingo & Vergo's underestimation of Law stemmed from their impression of him as the little brother they beat up on a long time ago. Akainu & Rayleigh have no on panel interaction or prior impression other than the knowledge of their respective statuses. Knowing that one is the former PK's first mate, and the other an Admiral, they would take each other seriously. 



> Through that encounter, we can determine intellectually that Law would beat Vergo more time than not and the fight was virtually a high difficulties match and no matter how you look at it, those two were on the same level. And the battle certain didn’t last long.



Ignoring the fact that the Ope Ope no mi is more unique in its nature, compared to plain swordsmanship? =/ You are really reaching if you think that a fight between Akainu & Rayleigh is going to play out in a similar way, by grasping at these really elaborate scenarios and comparing apples to oranges. 



> My point, you don’t need the same level of stamina as your opponent to beat them, especially when your using a swords that capable of ending the battle given the opportunity (same goes with DF powers like the C3).



I get your point. 

However, since you already acknowledge the fact that the C3, like Rayleigh, may possess decisive fight-ending abilities and attacks, I don't see what the issue of match up is? The point is that the Admirals have been, for all intensive purposes, portrayed to be stronger than Rayleigh at the current moment, and are monsters of stamina. If Rayleigh's abilities are on the same level as them, and if both parties possess one-shot capabilities as you seem to think so(therefore there aren't any inherent match up advantages), how would Rayleigh manage to outlast them at all? 



> 3.	He doesn’t need to as I elaborate it on point 2. Several days or less is more than enough to decide the battle between Ray and any of the top tiers in OP.



If that is the case, then those several days would certainly not be in Rayleigh's favor. Not that I think he can last for 10 days against Akainu anyways, if it comes down to that. 



> 4.	Agree, though it doesn’t change my point.



But it doesn't contradict the fact that fighting an Admiral is going to be more taxing than swimming through the Calm Belt. I don't think that anyone was ever saying that Rayleigh was just an old man who would puff out in a few seconds. The Calm Belt tells us that his physical condition is impressive, but it doesn't tell us anything in relation to his endurance against the Admirals. In fact, his encounter with Kizaru was more telling. 




> 5.	I am in no way saying that he’s capable of easily landing 1 good shot on an Admiral. That luxurious, but in a bloodlust extended battle to the death and after a few days of stalemating, it’s inevitable that there will be opportunities. And Akainu will also need those opportunities to land lethal hits of Ray. Obviously, Ray/Akainu wouldn’t get that opportunity every time, that’s why I give Akainu the benefit of the doubt of winning more times out of 10.
> It is in no way to downplaying the Admirals.* Akainu got hit in MF. WB Got Hit. These guys are not CoO Gods.*



These situations happened in scenarios where many external interferences came into play. That is not going to happen in a 1 V 1. 




> 6.	Based on battles of sword users previously, it is definitely possible and plausible that when you’re the same level as your opponent, while it’s difficulty to create an opening to land those types of hits, it’s definitely plausible based on the Ryuma and Vergo example.



And I'm telling you that those examples are not logical for Akainu, since Ryuma's fight with Zoro was a battle between two swordsmen, and Vergo's situation and underestimation had a lot to do with his background with Law and the actual story. Such facets are absent in this fight.


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## Mihawk (Mar 7, 2014)

> 7.	I think you?re misunderstanding me here. My point being there are people who down play Ray, but saying that Kizaru only used his sword against a strong sword user in Ray, therefore Kizaru is stronger overall if he used everything in his arsenal is illogical. What you said in this point indicates that we?re in agreement here.



I suppose. I think that it's just about keeping perspective. It would be hard for Kizaru to create distance during that time and switch to ranged combat, yes. 



> 8.	I said ?risk?. Of course it?s not easy, just like it wasn?t a walk in the park for Mihawk to slash Luffy. That said, it would be just as difficult for Kizaru to land a lighting kick on Ray, but the bigger difference is that a good sword slash can permanently scared you and Laser kick while strong haven?t really shown any permanent damage.



Well, first of all, theoretically, it would indeed be a walk in the park for Mihawk to cut down Luffy(that is a discussion for another time =D). 

Can't really pick and choose like that. Kizaru's kicks have been shown to be able to reduce city-sized trees at casual discharge. Yes, if Rayleigh got a good cut on his leg, then it would cause an injury, but the same applies for Rayleigh, since Kizaru's kicks are not just centered on blunt force, but a piercing laser which travels at a rapid rate. Either ways, my point is that both of them aren't going to be careless at all, and neither would happen until perhaps the conclusion of the fight. 




> 9.	Ray glides and intercepted Kizaru?s light speed kicks indicating they have similar speed. If Kizaru keeps his distance, surely Ray could send an air slash elsewhere and vise versa, that?s why close combat sword fighting was necessary at that point.



Well, it would be a given that Ray would be able to keep up with an Admiral. However the same logic would apply to Kizaru. If Ray was to send a slash elsewhere in the same way that Kizaru tried to use his transmission, Kizaru would be quick enough to neutralise it. 




> 10.	Yep.





> 11.	The point of my post is that the ?OLD MAN? argument is overused and illogical. Old WB was out of his prime and still decisively stronger than anyone at MF, while we do not know how strongest Ray was in his prime or how much he?s decreased in power and stamina. What we do know is that even when he?s given this old man treatment, he was still portray evenly with Kizaru and for people to say he will lose just because he?s out of his prime is baseless.



I believe that his regression and rust is only one part of the core argument. 



> 12.	Okay
> 13.	And? Jinbe knows that he won?t have to face those guys because Ray is there.



If all 3 Admirals were present along with guys like Garp & Sengoku, Rayleigh would get obliterated off the face of the earth



> 14.	True, but this was at Marine headquarters and Luffy took his time. Wouldn?t it be more logically to say that there would be an Admiral level fighter still at MF? Obviously Oda send them to do something else to avoid a big battle, but logically speaking it would be very likely that during the time Luffy ring the bell the C3, Sengoku or Garp would have more than enough time to get there if they were on the island.



Refer to the above. To go into the HQ again, would be extremely risky, since Rayleigh would be wise enough to know that there would be no guarantee that several of the Admirals are not present there as a collective, including Garp/Sengoku. So I really do not think that their entrance into the reconstruction to ring the Ox Bell had anything to do with tiers or power levels. As I said, they took advantage of the HQ's weakened state, as well as the element of surprise. 



> 15.	He train luffy and obviously would need to be hands on and would have gotten practice. While he won?t get ?Stronger?, he should be better off comparing to the Ray that didn?t do anything for 20+ years.



But we can't use that here, is what I'm saying. Just like how in this very thread, it would be very confusing if people were to compare Post TS Akainu to Pre TS Akainu. We can likely infer that Akainu has gotten possibly stronger over the timeskip after his fight with Aokiji, but we have no feats to support that, and no tangible method of measurement to gauge the separation between both versions of Akainus. 




> 16.	We also don?t know if Kizaru got stronger or weaker during the timeskip either as he could get the old man treatment. After all, he should be in his 60s now?



I don't think it applies to any of the C3 at all. Fujitora is the only Admiral so far whom I can see that happening to. The C3 are always portrayed extremely closely in tandem to each other, and it makes no sense that Kizaru would suddenly regress. Also, while not confirmed canon, Kizaru apparently refined the use of his devil fruit powers over the TS, but we'll see how authentic that piece of info is. 

Once again, not really tangible to use the timeskip development for top tiers till we see them again. I think it would be too much of a stretch to assume that Rayleigh got better after the timeskip, while Kizaru somehow got weaker, especially when the latter has shown no signs of regression or old age catching up to him before the TS, while we have seen these signs/implications from Ray.


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## Shanks (Mar 7, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> For this to happen, one would have to let their guard down or get distracted (CIS) and this won't happen  Matches are generally decided based on two things...
> 
> 1.) Who is stronger/better
> 2.) Who has the matchup in their favor (I.e. location, intel, range, prep, etc.)
> ...



I don't have time to reply to Dofla's wall of text right now, so will just reply to this on my iPhone for now. 

In order for anyone to land hits or a fatal blows in a fair battle, you don't have to be distracted or PIS. There will always be opportunities to land hits in a battle, especially in a extended battle that last a few days against two people at the same level. The person that is slightly stronger will of course be able identify and take advantage of those opportunities more often, but certainly won't be able to take advantage of those  opportunities 100% of the time and the person that is slightly weaker certainly won't have zero chance of identifying those opportunities. It is unlikely that Akainu could evade or intercept Ray's swords for 10 different extended fair battles in different locations and mindset and find opportunities to land fatal blows to end 10/10 battles. At best I will give him 80% chance, that is he could win 8/10 fair battles.


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## Kid (Mar 7, 2014)

Sabo said:


> I don't have time to reply to Dofla's wall of text right now, so will just reply to this on my iPhone for now.
> 
> In order for anyone to land hits or a fatal blows in a fair battle, you don't have to be distracted or PIS. There will always be opportunities to land hits in a battle, especially in a extended battle that last a few days against two people at the same level. The person that is slightly stronger will of course be able identify and take advantage of those opportunities more often, but certainly won't be able to take advantage of those  opportunities 100% of the time and the person that is slightly weaker certainly won't have zero chance of identifying those opportunities. It is unlikely that Akainu could evade or intercept Ray's swords for 10 different extended fair battles in different locations and mindset and find opportunities to land fatal blows to end 10/10 battles. At best I will give him 80% chance, that is he could win 8/10 fair battles.



I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way.

The truth is that rayleigh will lose this everytime


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## Halcyon (Mar 7, 2014)

Personally, I don't see preskip Sakazuki taking on Prime Ray, though I'm actually more in favor of Ray winning very high to extreme... don't know why I only said high.

Depends on who the FV is at the end of the day


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## Kid (Mar 7, 2014)

This is Prime Rayleigh?


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## Imagine (Mar 7, 2014)

Nah               .


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## Halcyon (Mar 7, 2014)

We all just wish it was.

Everyone knows old Ray loses


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## trance (Mar 7, 2014)

Sabo said:


> In order for anyone to land hits or a fatal blows in a fair battle, you don't have to be distracted or PIS. There will always be opportunities to land hits in a battle, especially in a extended battle that last a few days against two people at the same level. The person that is slightly stronger will of course be able identify and take advantage of those opportunities more often, but certainly won't be able to take advantage of those  opportunities 100% of the time and the person that is slightly weaker certainly won't have zero chance of identifying those opportunities. It is unlikely that Akainu could evade or intercept Ray's swords for 10 different extended fair battles in different locations and mindset and find opportunities to land fatal blows to end 10/10 battles. At best I will give him 80% chance, that is he could win 8/10 fair battles.



Rayleigh has proven to be capable of being an extremely lethal opponent and I do agree they're close in overall standing but as I said before, since Akainu is universally considered stronger than Rayleigh, in a straight 1v1 with no externalities as Doflamingo has said, Akainu *will* win every single time. This isn't a very creative or imaginative way to debate but its the way we manage.


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## Slenderman (Mar 7, 2014)

Akainu wins 10/10 times. High diff overall.


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## Shanks (Mar 7, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Rayleigh has proven to be capable of being an extremely lethal opponent and I do agree they're close in overall standing but as I said before, since Akainu is universally considered stronger than Rayleigh, in a straight 1v1 with no externalities as Doflamingo has said, Akainu *will* win every single time. This isn't a very creative or imaginative way to debate but its the way we manage.



This isn't a response to my reply nor does it even try to counter it. Either way, I understand what the both of you are saying, but I don't agree with it per reasons stated in the last few posts.

While i believe you and Dofla still slightly underestimating Ray, I believe it's a personal opinion and preferences, so I guess I can deal with it. 

I will reserve my effort and further TL; DR for the real down players.


Edit: Akainu win 8/10 times very high - extreme difficulties.


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> That's ridicolous logic.
> .Wanting to providing them assistance doesn't indicate that. Remember, the goal was to let the SH pirates escape from their predicament, not to catergorically defeat the marines there. All he needed to do was to at least occupy/provide enough interference to give them an opening. I don't think he weighed up the strength levels of every one there and was able to ascertain that quickly that a younger him could defeat all of them. Furthermore, he was an old man who wanted to help the new geneartion of pirates, especially Luffy who he deeply respected and saw traits of Roger in. He would have been more than happy to sacrifice his life there for that cause.
> 
> His comments solely indicate that he was desperate to help them out as he saw were on the brink of complete anhiliation. It requires a massive amount of assumption to interept that as any indicator that a younger him would defeat all four of them.


Your attacking a straw-man. I never said Prime Ray would definitely beat all 4 of them, I said Ray implies in his Prime he could take on all 4 of them; in this case for at least the amount of time it would take the Straw-Hats to get away. With that said it's certainly possible that Prime-Ray could defeat all 4 of them, just not confirmed. 

Anyway, regardless of whether Prime-Ray defeats them all or not, the fact that he can take on Kizaru  at the same time as the other 3, is a clear indication that Prime-Ray > Kizaru.



> Also there's no's such panting from Borsalino. He react's with a "Wheeew... ", most likely a combination of his sarcy attitude and his surprise of Rayleigh attacking him whilst he went after the SH's


Another Straw-Man, considering I never made that point.



> The facts are that Rayleigh was getting tired after a short (but high intensity) clash with Borsalino and after engaging in a combat style (swordplay) that was more to his favour than his opponent's.


Actually the fact of the matter is that one combatant "panting" is not valid evidence, that he/she is weaker than whoever he/she is facing. It's not even a valid means of measuring how tired someone is or how much they are being pressured. Look at Luffy vs Ussop; Luffy pants after Ussop shoots rotten eggs at him:


Are you seriously going to sit here and argue that Luffy was tired or pressured by Ussop's Egg-Star. Or worse yet that Luffy was weaker than Ussop lol.

Simply put your trying to draw blood from a stone, or to put it another way, your trying to force a conclusion, when we do not have enough evidence to draw one.



> Odds are that Borsalino could have gone on to capture him had the need not existed to preserve vital marine resources for the upcoming confrontation with Whitebeard.


If Kizaru could not recover from a battle with Ray during the time that passed from Shabondy-Amazon Lily - Impel Down, than even if Kizaru did win it would be with extremely-high difficulty, or worse yet with permanent injuries. 



> And Sakazuki is generally regarded to be a tad stronger than Borsalino so there you go.


To me this is extremely faulty logic. First off if Kizaru and Akainu, are literally that close in strength, where Akainu is only a tad bit stronger than him, match up could very well be a major factor here. Kizaru may very well be a bad match up for Ray, while Ray could be better match for Akainu. 

But of course, this works on thee unprovable assumptions of Kizaru vs Akainu, and that Kizaru would actually beat Old-Ray. 

So, once again, we don't have the information to judge this match.


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## Akitō (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Look at Luffy vs Ussop; Luffy pants after Ussop shoots rotten eggs at him:



Where exactly is he panting on that page? If you're talking about the "Hyuh!", that could've easily been him reacting to the fact that he just got something shot into his mouth. Usually expressions of panting don't end with exclamation points because the exclamation point usually indicates surprise and people usually aren't surprised that they're panting.


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## Butters (Mar 8, 2014)

Zoro was shown panting several times in his fight against Kaku while his opponent seemingly wasn't exerting himself a lot.




He still won the fight. 

Saying Rayleigh was on the losing edge merely because of a couple of puffs is ridiculous. Period.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Where exactly is he panting on that page? If you're talking about the "Hyuh!", that could've easily been him reacting to the fact that he just got something shot into his mouth. Usually expressions of panting don't end with exclamation points because the exclamation point usually indicates surprise and people usually aren't surprised that they're panting.


Oda draws the puffy smoke cloud near a person's mouth to represent panting. Luffy has that after the Egg-Star. There are tons of additional examples beyond this; one which Butters also showed w/ Zoro vs Kaku.


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## Mihawk (Mar 8, 2014)

It's really about context. 

People use the panting as an indicator for Rayleigh because unlike Rayleigh, Zoro & Usopp are not old men. 

My guess is, Kizaru would beat Rayleigh high/very high difficulty.


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## Imagine (Mar 8, 2014)

Glad to see RF back.


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## Akitō (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Oda draws the puffy smoke cloud near a person's mouth to represent panting. Luffy has that after the Egg-Star. There are tons of additional examples beyond this; one which Butters also showed w/ Zoro vs Kaku.



That ball could be an extension from the thing that's coming from his nose, which appears to be a liquid (i.e. the remnants of Usopp's Egg Star). Not saying that your interpretation is wrong (because I know you love to play the 'opinion' card when it isn't at all applicable), but I'm sure that you can find a better example considering the way you're writing your argument. 

And I fail to see how the Zoro example helps your point. Who's to say that Zoro wasn't being pressured and wasn't at a disadvantage at that point in the fight?


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## Lawliet (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Oda draws the puffy smoke cloud near a person's mouth to represent panting. Luffy has that after the Egg-Star. There are tons of additional examples beyond this; one which Butters also showed w/ Zoro vs Kaku.



That was not a puffy smoke cloud. A puffy smoke cloud would be something like what Sai did when he got knocked out by Lucy, that "Hyuh!!" Was not a puffy smoke cloud, that was an affect of something going inside your mouth, and it was tabasco, so yeah, if Luffy didn't have any reactions whatsoever to swallowing tabasco, then his brain is dead.


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## Coruscation (Mar 8, 2014)

Rayleigh panting in his bout with Kizaru is relevant because they were doing the exact same thing at the time. That makes it different from countless other cases where someone who is stronger might indeed pant right after being subjected to a taxing/unexpected move or whatever. They were each attacking the other in the exact same way but only one was starting to show signs of exhaustion. If you have two swordsmen sparring and one is starting to breath heavily while the other is not it's not at all strange to interpret that as a possible indication of one part having the advantage in the fight and being superior overall. It's not conclusive evidence, but to dismiss it entirely and call it meaningless is no better than calling it proof.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 8, 2014)

Sakazuki is 10 and Ray-san is 9 .

In X time Ray-san goes to 8.9

In 10X time Sakazuki goes to 9.9 .

Kuzan and Kizaru are 9.9 . And they go to 9.8 in 10X time too .

Do you get the problem ? Ray-san is already a little bit weaker than any admiral(Not by much, he can obviously stand his ground), but when you count time, it makes Ray-san's life miserable, because it takes 10 times more time to the Admirals(Who are younger) to get as tired as Rayleigh, .


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Akitō said:


> That ball could be an extension from the thing that's coming from his nose, which appears to be a liquid (i.e. the remnants of Usopp's Egg Star). Not saying that your interpretation is wrong (because I know you love to play the 'opinion' card when it isn't at all applicable), but I'm sure that you can find a better example considering the way you're writing your argument.


I fail to see how you can see that as anything, but the typical pant puff of smoke, but it doesn't matter, because there are countless examples in the manga.




> And I fail to see how the Zoro example helps your point. Who's to say that Zoro wasn't being pressured and wasn't at a disadvantage at that point in the fight?


\
Honestly this is the biggest BS ever. People say because of Raleigh panting he was going to loose to Kizaru. People show a very clear instance where Zoro pants, yet goes on to win, the battle. Yet Akito still sits here and argues it doesn't help the point myself and others are trying to make about the panting being an absolutely stupid way to predict the winner of a battle.


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## Lawliet (Mar 8, 2014)

> I fail to see how you can see that as anything, but the typical pant puff of smoke, but it doesn't matter, because there are countless examples in the manga.



Because it has "Hyuh" in it which obviously means it's not a "typical" puff smoke?


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## Shanks (Mar 8, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Sakazuki is 10 and Ray-san is 9 .
> 
> In X time Ray-san goes to 8.9
> 
> ...



I am a little confused on how you got to these numbers? I would give Akainu 10, Kizau/Aokiji 9.9, Ray 9.8.


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## Akitō (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Honestly this is the biggest BS ever. People say because of Raleigh panting he was going to loose to Kizaru. People show a very clear instance where Zoro pants, yet goes on to win, the battle. Yet Akito still sits here and argues it doesn't help the point myself and others are trying to make about the panting being an absolutely stupid way to predict the winner of a battle.



I'm trying my hardest to give you the benefit of the doubt as an intelligent debater, but time and time again you prove me wrong by misrepresenting my arguments. Read the post you responded to and tell me where exactly I said anything about accurately predicting the winner based on panting.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Akitō said:


> I'm trying my hardest to give you the benefit of the doubt as an intelligent debater, but time and time again you prove me wrong by misrepresenting my arguments. Read the post you responded to and tell me where exactly I said anything about accurately predicting the winner based on panting.


I'm trying my hardest to give you the benefit of the doubt as an intelligent debater, but time and time again you prove me wrong by misrepresenting my arguments. Read my posts again and realize that my entire point was that, panting is a horrible way to determine the victor of a fight, and than realize that you said Zoro-panting against Kaku does not support my point, when it very clearly does.


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## Lawliet (Mar 8, 2014)

"accurately" is a key word here.....


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## Akitō (Mar 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Read my posts again and realize that my entire point was that, panting is a horrible way to determine the victor of a fight, and than realize that you said Zoro-panting against Kaku does not support my point, when it very clearly does.



No, it wasn't. You had two points, the second one being: 



> It's not even a valid means of measuring how tired someone is or how much they are being pressured.



This was the point I responded to.


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## trance (Mar 8, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Rayleigh panting in his bout with Kizaru is relevant because they were doing the exact same thing at the time. That makes it different from countless other cases where someone who is stronger might indeed pant right after being subjected to a taxing/unexpected move or whatever. They were each attacking the other in the exact same way but only one was starting to show signs of exhaustion. If you have two swordsmen sparring and one is starting to breath heavily while the other is not it's not at all strange to interpret that as a possible indication of one part having the advantage in the fight and being superior overall. It's not conclusive evidence, but to dismiss it entirely and call it meaningless is no better than calling it proof.



Corus understands.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2014)

Akitō said:


> No, it wasn't. You had two points, the second one being:
> This was the point I responded to.


Actually I had one point and it was that panting is not a credible argument for who the winner was. The egg-star example was one of the examples of why that is, I.E. Luffy did not loose to Ussop and wasn't even tired/pressured there. You can decided to disbelieve the Ussop example for whatever reason, I don't care, but Butters example proves my overaching point to not use Panting as an example, which is all that I care about.

Edit: Also do you really think Zoro was running low on stamina and tired out there, and how hard exactly was he pressured by Kaku, when he one-shotted Kaku w/ Asura-Form later on. So yes the Zoro point does support what I said about Ussop vs Luffy, which was just evidence for my overaching point, anyway.


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## Akitō (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Actually I had one point and it was that panting is not a credible argument for who the winner was. The egg-star example was one of the examples of why that is, I.E. Luffy did not loose to Ussop and wasn't even tired/pressured there. You can decided to disbelieve the Ussop example for whatever reason, I don't care, but Butters example proves my overaching point to not use Panting as an example, which is all that I care about.



You can say whatever you want on what your overarching argument was, but please don't try to argue that you only had one point when your wording was clearly trying to indicate two points there. The fact that you said 'even' in your claim makes it blatantly obvious that the second sentence is separate from the first (i.e. just like "He isn't fast. He isn't even strong" are two separate points). I can attack one without attacking the other, which is exactly what I did (and I made it clear I was doing that too). 

I'll post them just to make it clear as to what I'm talking about:



			
				Point1 said:
			
		

> Actually the fact of the matter is that one combatant "panting" is not valid evidence, that he/she is weaker than whoever he/she is facing.





			
				Point2 said:
			
		

> It's not even a valid means of measuring how tired someone is or how much they are being pressured.



In fact, you even go as far as to specifically mention the second point in relation to your example. 



> Are you seriously going to sit here and argue that Luffy was tired or pressured by Ussop's Egg-Star.



To which I'd answer that if Luffy actually was panting, yes, he was being pressured by Usopp. 

If it wasn't your intention to make the second point, that's fine. But then I'd recommend you be more careful with the way you word your arguments in the future. 



> Edit: Also do you really think Zoro was running low on stamina and tired out there, and how hard exactly was he pressured by Kaku, when he one-shotted Kaku w/ Asura-Form later on. So yes the Zoro point does support what I said about Ussop vs Luffy, which was just evidence for my overaching point, anyway.



I think he was being pressured at that point. Just because he's panting doesn't necessarily mean that he's low on stamina, but it does mean that at that particular point, he's physically taxing himself quite a bit. If one character isn't taxing himself much and one is, the one who isn't is pressuring the one who is. And just because a character is under pressure at a particular point doesn't mean that he's weaker than the other character or that he's going to lose the fight.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

Akitō said:


> If it wasn't your intention to make the second point, that's fine. But then I'd recommend you be more careful with the way you word your arguments in the future.


I admit that my wording could have been confusing. Maybe I should have said as; 

Panting doesn't indicate the winner of the match. Luffy panted against Ussop, and he wasn't even pressured/tired, let alone going to loose to Ussop. 

In-fairness to myself I was not sober when I made that post lol :cheers



> To which I'd answer that if Luffy actually was panting, yes, he was being pressured by Usopp.


Idk dude if Rotten Eggs count as pressuring someone, than to me whether someone is being pressured looses all meaning in a serious discussion.



> I think he was being pressured at that point. Just because he's panting doesn't necessarily mean that he's low on stamina, but it does mean that at that particular point, he's physically taxing himself quite a bit. If one character isn't taxing himself much and one is, the one who isn't is pressuring the one who is. And just because a character is under pressure at a particular point doesn't mean that he's weaker than the other character or that he's going to lose the fight.


So you agree that Panting does not seem to be a good indicator of a characters stamina levels?

Also if what Kaku did counts as pressuring someone, to me the idea of pressuring someone doesn't really have any meaning in the battle then, as Zoro didn't even need to use his best combat Kaku's attacks at that time. And certainly has no relevance to predicting the winner of the battle.


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## Akitō (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Idk dude if Rotten Eggs count as pressuring someone, than to me whether someone is being pressured looses all meaning in a serious discussion.



Well, I honestly don't even think Luffy was panting there, so I don't think this is a good example. 



> So you agree that Panting does not seem to be a good indicator of a characters stamina levels?



You've got to look at things in context. Running low on stamina is a bit extreme in my mind. However, if one character is panting and the other isn't, the one who isn't panting will usually have more stamina at that point than the one who is. It's a good indicator of how physically taxing a battle is. Rayleigh was panting and Kizaru wasn't, so at that point in the fight, it was clear IMO that Kizaru was being taxed less than Rayleigh. 



> Also if what Kaku did counts as pressuring someone, to me the idea of pressuring someone doesn't really have any meaning in the battle then, as Zoro didn't even need to use his best combat Kaku's attacks at that time. And certainly has no relevance to predicting the winner of the battle.



This is a different point than what I was initially targeting, but I'll bite anyway.

It has _some_ relevance. As Coruscation already said, they were sparring. It wasn't a battle where someone landed a surprise-hit on someone else and that someones else starts to show signs of exhaustion; in that case, the stronger character could very well be that 'someone else' (as we saw with Zoro). Here, they were just clashing evenly. What we can take away from this scene is that Rayleigh taxes himself more than Kizaru does when they fight. That isn't to say that Rayleigh couldn't have come back and won the fight, but it's foolishness in my mind to completely ignore the scene and act as if nothing happened. In their brief battle, Kizaru had the upper-hand. That _is_ characteristic of someone who's superior than their enemy. Is that an absolute determiner of who'd win? Hell no. But does it somewhat imply that Kizaru is superior? In my mind, yes. I don't think Oda would've drawn a fight that he knew was going to be inconclusive like he did the Kizaru vs. Rayleigh fight if he wasn't trying to imply something more.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Well, I honestly don't even think Luffy was panting there, so I don't think this is a good example.
> .


From what i've seen in the manga that puffy cloud near the mouth is used to represent panting [or heavy breathing]. If you have examples of that not being the case, i'm glad to look at them and re-evaluate.



> You've got to look at things in context. Running low on stamina is a bit extreme in my mind. However, if one character is panting and the other isn't, the one who isn't panting will usually have more stamina at that point than the one who is. It's a good indicator of how physically taxing a battle is. Rayleigh was panting and Kizaru wasn't, so at that point in the fight, it was clear IMO that Kizaru was being taxed less than Rayleigh.


I can agree with the idea that someone who is panting will run out of stamina before someone who is not panting, assuming that condition of both parties remain constant. However the time it takes is the issue. For all we know it could take hours to even days before Raliegh ran out of stamina before Kizaru. And that's of course assuming the situation never changed.



> It has some relevance. As Coruscation already said, they were sparring. It wasn't a battle where someone landed a surprise-hit on someone else and that someones else starts to show signs of exhaustion; in that case, the stronger character could very well be that 'someone else' (as we saw with Zoro). Here, they were just clashing evenly. What we can take away from this scene is that Rayleigh taxes himself more than Kizaru does when they fight.


Actually all we can take away from that scene is that Raliegh taxes himself more than Kizaru does, when they fight in that specific fashion. Which really tells us little to nothing.



> That isn't to say that Rayleigh couldn't have come back and won the fight, but it's foolishness in my mind to completely ignore the scene and act as if nothing happened. In their brief battle, Kizaru had the upper-hand. That is characteristic of someone who's superior than their enemy. Is that an absolute determiner of who'd win? Hell no. But does it somewhat imply that Kizaru is superior? In my mind, yes. .


It's not a characteristic of someone whose superior to their enemy as we've seen the superior fighter pant at certain times when fighting an inferior on. So it's really not characteristic of anything, other than when Kizaru and Raliegh fought in that specific fashion, Raliegh was being tax'd more than Kizaru to some completely unquantifiable extent. 



> I don't think Oda would've drawn a fight that he knew was going to be inconclusive like he did the Kizaru vs. Rayleigh fight if he wasn't trying to imply something more


The simplest interpretation of that scene is that Oda drew Raliegh panting to show that Kizaru alone was enemy worthy of Raliegh's undivided attention, which is why he couldn't come to the aid of the SHs against Kuma, Sentomaru, & Pacifista as well. Supporting Raliegh's statement to the same effect. I seriously doubt however Oda specifically drew that panting to tell readers that Kizaru > Raliegh, as there is no reason for Oda to be coy about something like that. If he wants readers to know Kizaru is stronger than Raleigh, than he would have simply had Raliegh come right out and say Kizaru is stronger than him or even have Kizaru outright defeat Raliegh, than having Raliegh get saved by other means. I mean does someone have a gun to Oda's head telling him he can't tell readers that Kizaru is > Raliegh, but Oda is trying to get secret messages to his fans in by the way of "panting" LOL. 

The panting was there to show Kizaru was not an enemy Raliegh in his old age, could deal with lightly. People are reading too deeply into the text, if they are trying to draw any conclusion of whose superior from a skirmish, which really Oda intentionally left w/o a conclusion, almost certainly because he specifically did not want Fans to know who would prevail.

Though if were simply going to speculate on whatever, I'd assume Raliegh is going to get the Jiriaya treatment and get some epic display against one of the major villains, which would put him >= Kizaru, considering all the major villains are likely to be >= to the much less plot relevant Kizaru. In-fact if Shanks goes down to BB as many people seem to expect, Ray going down to Akainu or Kong, seems likely to me. But keep in mind I admit this is some serious speculation, and not really at all conducive to character match up threads.


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## Slenderman (Mar 9, 2014)

Not again guys…...


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## Canute87 (Mar 9, 2014)

Rayleigh ain't beating akainu.


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## Shinthia (Mar 9, 2014)

Old Ray loses to Akainu 10/10 times


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## Akitō (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> From what i've seen in the manga that puffy cloud near the mouth is used to represent panting [or heavy breathing]. If you have examples of that not being the case, i'm glad to look at them and re-evaluate.



That isn't a cloud. It's a ball of liquid. Or at least that's how I see it. 



> Actually all we can take away from that scene is that Raliegh taxes himself more than Kizaru does, when they fight in that specific fashion. Which really tells us little to nothing.



What other fashion would they be fighting in? They were both trying their hardest, so I don't see why they'd fight any differently. And honestly, if anything that style should be more suited for Rayleigh considering he seems to strictly be a swordsman. 



> It's not a characteristic of someone whose superior to their enemy as we've seen the superior fighter pant at certain times when fighting an inferior on.



Just because there are examples of superior fighters panting against enemies doesn't mean that it isn't characteristic of a superior fighter to not pant against someone who's weaker. And also, this was a case of them clashing as opposed to one of them surprising the other or one of them pulling out a new move. We don't often see superior fighters lose in a straight-up clash. 



> The simplest interpretation of that scene is that Oda drew Raliegh panting to show that Kizaru alone was enemy worthy of Raliegh's undivided attention, which is why he couldn't come to the aid of the SHs against Kuma, Sentomaru, & Pacifista as well.



Why is panting necessary at all to show that? If they're both fighting evenly and both being taxed evenly, neither would be able to help because the fight would be even. It's similar to how Kizaru couldn't help kill the Strawhats because Rayleigh was there - Oda didn't show Kizaru panting, and yet it was perfectly obvious that he couldn't have helped even if he wanted to. 



> I seriously doubt however Oda specifically drew that panting to tell readers that Kizaru > Raliegh, as there is no reason for Oda to be coy about something like that. If he wants readers to know Kizaru is stronger than Raleigh, than he would have simply had Raliegh come right out and say Kizaru is stronger than him or even have Kizaru outright defeat Raliegh, than having Raliegh get saved by other means. I mean does someone have a gun to Oda's head telling him he can't tell readers that Kizaru is > Raliegh, but Oda is trying to get secret messages to his fans in by the way of "panting" LOL.



All of those would be cases of clumsy writing. Having a strong-willed character admit his inferiority after just a brief clash would be weird characterization: no character would already deem themselves to be inferior after such a short time period even if they were. They tend to be confident in their abilities, or at the very least determined to win. He isn't just going to outright say that he's going to lose. 

And Kizaru defeating Rayleigh would debunk Rayleigh's hype/aura and make for a overcomplicated scenario. Newly introduced characters (particularly one who's meant to be Luffy's mentor) shouldn't be subjected to defeat so early. Also, just because there could be other ways of demonstrating something doesn't mean that that something isn't be demonstrated.


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## Lawliet (Mar 9, 2014)

It's an affect of luffy swallowing the Tabasco ...... Can you stop it now


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2014)

Akitō said:


> That isn't a cloud. It's a ball of liquid. Or at least that's how I see it.


IDK if were looking at the same panel man, because I can't see that at all.



> What other fashion would they be fighting in? They were both trying their hardest, so I don't see why they'd fight any differently. And honestly, if anything that style should be more suited for Rayleigh considering he seems to strictly be a swordsman.


I think we can both agree there is more to Kenjutsu duels than simply swing ones sword at someone and deflect their blows. There are specialized techniques that can be utilized.



> Just because there are examples of superior fighters panting against enemies doesn't mean that it isn't characteristic of a superior fighter to not pant against someone who's weaker. And also, this was a case of them clashing as opposed to one of them surprising the other or one of them pulling out a new move. We don't often see superior fighters lose in a straight-up clash.


In that sense yes it might be characteristic, but considering it can apply to the exact opposite as well, it's nothing we can use gauge who the superior fighter is.



> Why is panting necessary at all to show that? If they're both fighting evenly and both being taxed evenly, neither would be able to help because the fight would be even. It's similar to how Kizaru couldn't help kill the Strawhats because Rayleigh was there - Oda didn't show Kizaru panting, and yet it was perfectly obvious that he couldn't have helped even if he wanted to.


It's just a visual indication for readers, to support what Raliegh said. It's not an uncommon occurrence, for a mangaka to both show & tell. 



> All of those would be cases of clumsy writing. Having a strong-willed character admit his inferiority after just a brief clash would be weird characterization: no character would already deem themselves to be inferior after such a short time period even if they were. They tend to be confident in their abilities, or at the very least determined to win. He isn't just going to outright say that he's going to lose.


Or it would characterize Raliegh as a shrewd and sensible man. I mean Jiriaya was brimming with confidence many times, but he still acknowledge when he couldn't win.



> And Kizaru defeating Rayleigh would debunk Rayleigh's hype/aura and make for a overcomplicated scenario. Newly introduced characters (particularly one who's meant to be Luffy's mentor) shouldn't be subjected to defeat so early..


Yet Oda in your opinion indicating his inferiority to Kizaru, isn't doing the exact same-thing?



> Also, just because there could be other ways of demonstrating something doesn't mean that that something isn't be demonstrated


I just see no reason for Oda to be so coy as to try and send readers secret messages through pants, I really just don't.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 9, 2014)

At most Panting equates to Kizaru having more Stamina then Rayleigh or having greater physical strength forcing Rayleigh to use more of his stamina to deflect his attacks.  

Which given that Rayleigh has been retired and is now a old man thats not really a big deal.


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## Biased as Fuck (Mar 9, 2014)

Akainu wins


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## Akitō (Mar 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I think we can both agree there is more to Kenjutsu duels than simply swing ones sword at someone and deflect their blows. There are specialized techniques that can be utilized.



I agree that neither used any specialized techniques, which is an important part of every fighter's style. However, it should be noted that sparring too (i.e. just a test of physicality/speed) is also extremely important, which is why I don't understand why you think this scene is completely irrelevant to determining a victor. It shows us that Kizaru exerts himself less when they both do the same thing, a 'thing' which is a pretty integral part of any fight. 



> In that sense yes it might be characteristic, but considering it can apply to the exact opposite as well, it's nothing we can use gauge who the superior fighter is.



I mean, you sort of can. Just because something isn't absolutely definitive doesn't mean that we can't use it to make a logical conclusion. I feel like your debating against a point that's different from mine: that we _know_ Kizaru is stronger than Rayleigh. That isn't what I'm arguing for. I'm simply saying that we have a scene of Kizaru vs. Rayleigh, and in it Kizaru has all the characteristics of someone who's superior, whereas Rayleigh has none. 



> It's just a visual indication for readers, to support what Raliegh said. It's not an uncommon occurrence, for a mangaka to both show & tell.



This just seems like a weak point to me. You and I both know that Rayleigh panting made it literally no easier to see that he couldn't have helped Luffy and his crew. The fact remains that the very visual of him fighting Kizaru and Kizaru failing to help Kuma is evidence that he couldn't support Luffy's crew; add onto that the fact that he outright said he couldn't have helped and it seems like a completely purposeless usage. If you actually think that's the way he wrote it, that's up to you. But I find that interpretation to be pretty unlikely. 



> Or it would characterize Raliegh as a shrewd and sensible man. I mean Jiriaya was brimming with confidence many times, but he still acknowledge when he couldn't win.



He acknowledged it when it was clear that he couldn't have won. From Rayleigh's perspective, it doesn't make much sense for him to already admit inferiority when the fight hasn't even gotten to its root. And it's just bad writing in general IMO to tell the readers something as opposed to showing them: Rayleigh outright saying that he's weaker would be a heavy-handed approach to me. 



> Yet Oda in your opinion indicating his inferiority to Kizaru, isn't doing the exact same-thing?



There's a huge difference between someone losing a fight and the readers knowing that someone is weaker than someone else. Rayleigh losing takes away that aura that he has because we'd have already seen him beaten; when he actually does get beat for the final time, it won't be nearly as dramatic because we've already seen him lose. Imagine if Doflamingo got beat up during the war: that'd have completely taken away from his aura/hype. Even though we know he's weaker than a lot of people, it still takes away from the drama of his eventual defeat. 



> I just see no reason for Oda to be so coy as to try and send readers secret messages through pants, I really just don't.



Again, it's up to interpretation. But I feel like you're exaggerating the coyness of using pants. I don't think he was outright saying, 'Okay, Kizaru is absolutely stronger than Rayleigh'. In fact, I'm not even sure if he made any sort of conscious decision when writing that scene. I just don't think that he'd write Rayleigh clearly at a disadvantage against Kizaru if he felt that Kizaru was weaker. There are many more (and better) ways that he could've written that scene if he was thought something else. 

As I said before, your belief is your belief and I respect that. It really depends on what you think Oda's mindset was when he wrote it.


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2014)

Akitō said:


> I agree that neither used any specialized techniques, which is an important part of every fighter's style. However, it should be noted that sparring too (i.e. just a test of physicality/speed) is also extremely important, which is why I don't understand why you think this scene is completely irrelevant to determining a victor. It shows us that Kizaru exerts himself less when they both do the same thing, a 'thing' which is a pretty integral part of any fight.
> .


Problem is fighting style can augment physicality/speed in One-Piece, that's why I don't think the most basic sparring is very indicative of anything. For example Base-Luffy could do some light boxing with someone and end up panting, but than G2 Luffy could turn around and fodderize that person; let alone Luffy using G3/Haki on-top of that.



> I mean, you sort of can. Just because something isn't absolutely definitive doesn't mean that we can't use it to make a logical conclusion. I feel like your debating against a point that's different from mine: that we know Kizaru is stronger than Rayleigh. That isn't what I'm arguing for. I'm simply saying that we have a scene of Kizaru vs. Rayleigh, and in it Kizaru has all the characteristics of someone who's superior, whereas Rayleigh has none.


Akito i've always been talking about the same point, that panting is not indicative of anything in regards to whose superior or whose going to win the fight. That's all I care about; if you want to say Kizaru had whatever unquantifiable edge in that specific instance of the fight, i'm cool with that bruv.



> This just seems like a weak point to me. You and I both know that Rayleigh panting made it literally no easier to see that he couldn't have helped Luffy and his crew. The fact remains that the very visual of him fighting Kizaru and Kizaru failing to help Kuma is evidence that he couldn't support Luffy's crew; add onto that the fact that he outright said he couldn't have helped and it seems like a completely purposeless usage. If you actually think that's the way he wrote it, that's up to you. But I find that interpretation to be pretty unlikely.


Is panting ever necessary? I didn't need to see Luffy panting against any of his main enemies to know they were giving the dude a hard time, yet Oda showed it to me anyway.So it seems to me like your calling Oda's writing weak in general.



> He acknowledged it when it was clear that he couldn't have won. From Rayleigh's perspective, it doesn't make much sense for him to already admit inferiority when the fight hasn't even gotten to its root.


Dude if the panting was so indicative of who had the edge, that should have been enough for Raliegh to acknowledge that he was probably going to loose or that Kizaru was the superior fighter. Only reason for Raliegh to not acknowledge that is if despite him panting in that one panel, he still believed he could turn things around; and if Raliegh believed that to be the case then what reason do I have to doubt him?



> And it's just bad writing in general IMO to tell the readers something as opposed to showing them: Rayleigh outright saying that he's weaker would be a heavy-handed approach to me.


Yet in another part of this you are specifically arguing against my point that Mangaka like to both show & tell. Doesn't make much sense to me bro.

Not to mention I said Oda could have also demonstrated Kizaru's superiority. He could have shown Raliegh get defeated, and than saved by something else. Or show Kizaru about to land a critical blow on him and Raliegh get saved by something else. There is really a myriad of options here.



> There's a huge difference between someone losing a fight and the readers knowing that someone is weaker than someone else. Rayleigh losing takes away that aura that he has because we'd have already seen him beaten; when he actually does get beat for the final time, it won't be nearly as dramatic because we've already seen him lose.t.


Sorry I disagree, if someone tells me Kizaru would have beaten Raliegh, that's the same thing as Raliegh losing to Kizaru. Unless Kizaru absolutely humilated Raliegh or something.



> Imagine if Doflamingo got beat up during the war: that'd have completely taken away from his aura/hype. Even though we know he's weaker than a lot of people, it still takes away from the drama of his eventual defea


It wouldn't have taken his hype away for me if he was defeated. 

Though I admit this is a matter of opinion.



> Again, it's up to interpretation. But I feel like you're exaggerating the coyness of using pants. I don't think he was outright saying, 'Okay, Kizaru is absolutely stronger than Rayleigh'. In fact, I'm not even sure if he made any sort of conscious decision when writing that scene. I just don't think that he'd write Rayleigh clearly at a disadvantage against Kizaru if he felt that Kizaru was weaker. There are many more (and better) ways that he could've written that scene if he was thought something else.


The problem for me is Oda has written other scenes where people have panted and than won the fight, so I do not see Oda thinking to himself, I'm going to use panting as some definitive indicator that Kizaru wouldn't have lost this fight. He may have thought to himself i want Kizaru to be shown as serious threat even to Raliegh so I'll show him causing Raliegh to pant, but that's the extent of it. I do not think he want to indicate one specific conclusion was more likely than another as he intentionally left the fight w/o a conclusion.


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## Akitō (Mar 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Problem is fighting style can augment physicality/speed in One-Piece, that's why I don't think the most basic sparring is very indicative of anything. For example Base-Luffy could do some light boxing with someone and end up panting, but than G2 Luffy could turn around and fodderize that person; let alone Luffy using G3/Haki on-top of that.



That's because Luffy is one of the very few people who has an ability that can augment his physical stats. There aren't many who can do that. From the Rayleigh vs. Kizaru scene, we got to see that Kizaru is as physically fast and strong as Rayleigh, but has more stamina. That's important for us because now we know the only way Rayleigh's going to come out on top is if his special techniques are stronger - that's certainly a possibility, but that doesn't mean the scene tells us nothing. 



> Akito i've always been talking about the same point, that panting is not indicative of anything in regards to whose superior or whose going to win the fight. That's all I care about; if you want to say Kizaru had whatever unquantifiable edge in that specific instance of the fight, i'm cool with that bruv.



Neither character was using any special abilities and one was clearly better than the other. One character had all the characteristics of someone that was superior whereas the other had the characteristics of someone who was inferior. Yes, technically there is nothing in that scene that outright says Kizaru is stronger, and yes, if Oda wrote another scene and had Rayleigh beat Kizaru, there wouldn't be any contradictions. But it still doesn't mean that we can't argue that Kizaru's probably stronger based on the fact that he's physically better than Rayleigh. Physicality is an important and usually indicative stat. Can you at least acknowledge that Kizaru seems to be better physically? 

Also, as a side note, how do you know that neither used any special abilities? They were trying their hardest and most of it was off-panel: you'd think that they'd use their best stuff, particularly Rayleigh who was on a time-crunch considering his friends were in grave danger. 



> Is panting ever necessary? I didn't need to see Luffy panting against any of his main enemies to know they were giving the dude a hard time, yet Oda showed it to me anyway.So it seems to me like your calling Oda's writing weak in general.



You're misunderstanding. Panting shows that the character is tired or that he's exerting himself physically. In the cases of Luffy panting, it was important to show that because it shows that he's exerting himself more than his enemy - if his enemy isn't panting, it shows us that he's having a _harder_ time than him and that he's at a disadvantage.

In the case of Rayleigh panting, showing us that Rayleigh was exerting himself more than Kizaru is a completely separate point from showing us that he couldn't help Luffy. It goes beyond just not being able to help Luffy because he wouldn't have been able to help Luffy if he was fighting evenly with Kizaru. To say that Oda showed Rayleigh at a disadvantage for the sole reason to show us that he couldn't help Luffy is to say that Oda did something that has literally no bearing on whether we interpreted it the way he wanted us to interpret it. Take away the panting and he still can't help Luffy. 

Take away Luffy's panting in certain fights and it takes away from the back-and-forth style of figthing that Luffy usually has and it takes away from the fact that _Luffy was at a clear disadvantage at that point in time_ (of course if his opponent isn't panting). 



> Dude if the panting was so indicative of who had the edge, that should have been enough for Raliegh to acknowledge that he was probably going to loose or that Kizaru was the superior fighter.



Why? As you said, fights can turn around. There's no reason to already admit your inferiority when you've been fighting for a few minutes. And as I said before, just because Oda could've done something else doesn't mean that what he's trying to tell us is something different. There are many ways in writing to tell the same thing.



> Only reason for Raliegh to not acknowledge that is if despite him panting in that one panel, he still believed he could turn things around; and if Raliegh believed that to be the case then what reason do I have to doubt him?



You're confusing in-universe perspective from authorial perspective. My argument is that I don't think _Oda_ would write a scene that he knew was going to be inconclusive where one character was at a clear disadvantage if he thought that the character at the clear disadvantage was stronger. I think from Rayleigh's perspective, it's perfectly logical for him to believe that he has a good chance considering the fight just started and fights can go back-and-forth. 



> Not to mention I said Oda could have also demonstrated Kizaru's superiority. He could have shown Raliegh get defeated, and than saved by something else. Or show Kizaru about to land a critical blow on him and Raliegh get saved by something else. There is really a myriad of options here.



I already addressed these. 



> Sorry I disagree, if someone tells me Kizaru would have beaten Raliegh, that's the same thing as Raliegh losing to Kizaru. Unless Kizaru absolutely humilated Raliegh or something.



Don't really know how to respond to this because it's your opinion, but I don't really understand this viewpoint. Do you honestly feel that if Doflamingo had been beaten and bloodied during the Whitebeard War, it wouldn't have taken away from the eventual defeat that he's going to have at the hands of Luffy and/or Law? Not being beaten and not being stronger than someone else are two way different things IMO.

And also, it's you who's trying to make Oda use the heavy-handed approach of outright saying Rayleigh is weaker than Kizaru. I'm on the other hand saying that I don't think Oda would've wrote the scene that he did if he thought Rayleigh was stronger. I'm not even sure if it was a concious decision on his part to 'tell us' something - it could've just been, 'Okay, I think Rayleigh is weaker, so he better be panting.' Not sure if he was necessarily trying to send us messages or anything like that. And even if he was, it still wouldn't be nearly has heavy-handed are just outright saying it, which would take away less of Rayleigh's hype. 



> I'm going to use panting as some definitive indicator that Kizaru wouldn't have lost this fight.



Again, I don't think he's using it as a definitive indicator. Otherwise, I'd agree that he probably could've done something else to show us that conclusion.


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2014)

Akitō said:


> That's because Luffy is one of the very few people who has an ability that can augment his physical stats. There aren't many who can do that. .


It's  actually pretty common considering the amount of Zoan users; what is there 500 in Kaidou's employ alone. Even Zoro despite not having a DF, seems to enjoy increased physical abilities in Asura-Form. Than of course there is Haki, which Raliegh just so happens to be a master of.



> From the Rayleigh vs. Kizaru scene, we got to see that Kizaru is as physically fast and strong as Rayleigh, but has more stamina. That's important for us because now we know the only way Rayleigh's going to come out on top is if his special techniques are stronger - that's certainly a possibility, but that doesn't mean the scene tells us nothing.


Honestly what battle with an Admiral is going to be settle with someone using basic physical attacks? I don't think even Roger or Prime-WB could pull that off. 



> . But it still doesn't mean that we can't argue that Kizaru's probably stronger based on the fact that he's physically better than Rayleigh. Physicality is an important and usually indicative stat.


Not really. I mean when was the last time stamina decided a match? I honestly can't recall a single time. 



> Can you at least acknowledge that Kizaru seems to be better physically?


Sure I acknowledge that Kizaru seemed to have some sort of unquantifiable edge in stamina; thee single most worthless stat in terms of determining whose  a superior fighter or whose going to win, in the entire manga. 



> Also, as a side note, how do you know that neither used any special abilities? They were trying their hardest and most of it was off-panel: you'd think that they'd use their best stuff, particularly Rayleigh who was on a time-crunch considering his friends were in grave danger


How do you know Kizaru wasn't panting a shit ton more than Raliegh, off panel?



> Take away Luffy's panting in certain fights and it takes away from the back-and-forth style of figthing that Luffy usually has and it takes away from the fact that Luffy was at a clear disadvantage at that point in time (of course if his opponent isn't panting


I'm sorry, but I can figure out when Luffy is having a tough time with an enemy w/o the panting, just as easily as I can figure out Raliegh was having a tough time w/ Kizaru - enough that he couldn't help the SHs with their enemies, w/o the panting. But Oda likes to show & tell; it's as simple as that. 



> Why? As you said, fights can turn around. There's no reason to already admit your inferiority when you've been fighting for a few minutes.


Here's the thing, if Oda wants the readers to acknowledge Raliegh panting as such a clear indication that he is the inferior fighter, than Raliegh should have also been able to realize he was the inferior fighter based on the same thing. You can argue well Raleigh believed he could turn events around, well okay that's all fine and dandy, but than your essentially arguing that basing shit on panting is BS, since the fight could have turned around. So which is it exactly. You can't argue the panting is indicative that Kizaru is the superior fighter, than turn around and argue that Raleigh believed he could still turn the fight around; I mean Raleigh knows his limits better than any of us, if he thought he could turn the fight around, than that panting is pretty meaningless.



> And as I said before, just because Oda could've done something else doesn't mean that what he's trying to tell us is something different. There are many ways in writing to tell the same thing.


Again your entitled to your opinion, but I don't think Oda would try to tell us one fighter is definitively superior to another w/ panting. There is no reason to be that coy, and quite honestly it would be terrible writing on his behalf, considering he's had the superior fighter pant against inferior fighters before. 



> You're confusing in-universe perspective from authorial perspective. My argument is that I don't think Oda would write a scene that he knew was going to be inconclusive where one character was at a clear disadvantage if he thought that the character at the clear disadvantage was stronger. I think from Rayleigh's perspective, it's perfectly logical for him to believe that he has a good chance considering the fight just started and fights can go back-and-forth.


Here's the thing if Raliegh has an advanced form such as Vergo's full body Haki [or even Luffy's CoA that covers his entire limbs] or something like Zoro's Asura-Form, Oda showing Base-Raliegh fighting Kizaru no problem, would make Advanced-Form Raliegh too strong. For example it's like if Kishimoto had Base-Naruto be already capable of fighting evenly w/ a top-Kage like Tobirama, it would make Sannin Modo Naruto too powerful, given the increases this mode has been demonstrated to have previously in the manga-cannon.

Or it could be for a completely different reason. That's why I don't necessary like the exercise of trying to mind-read the author.



> Don't really know how to respond to this because it's your opinion, but I don't really understand this viewpoint. Do you honestly feel that if Doflamingo had been beaten and bloodied during the Whitebeard War, it wouldn't have taken away from the eventual defeat that he's going to have at the hands of Luffy and/or Law? Not being beaten and not being stronger than someone else are two way different things IMO.


If WB one-shotted him It still wouldn't have taken his hype away for me. Same way that I'd still be hyped to see what John the Giant can do, against anyone who is no WSM.



> And also, it's you who's trying to make Oda use the heavy-handed approach of outright saying Rayleigh is weaker than Kizaru. I'm on the other hand saying that I don't think Oda would've wrote the scene that he did if he thought Rayleigh was stronger. I'm not even sure if it was a concious decision on his part to 'tell us' something - it could've just been, 'Okay, I think Rayleigh is weaker, so he better be panting.' Not sure if he was necessarily trying to send us messages or anything like that. And even if he was, it still wouldn't be nearly has heavy-handed are just outright saying it, which would take away less of Rayleigh's hype.


Actually i'm not trying to make Oda take any approach, I'm saying that Oda has no reason to play it coy, if he wants people to know Kizaru is the superior fighter. If Oda wants shit to be ambiguous, which honestly I believe that is indeed the case, than there is nothing heavy handed about that approach.



> Again, I don't think he's using it as a definitive indicator. Otherwise, I'd agree that he probably could've done something else to show us that conclusion.


Well than if he doesn't want it to be definitive than he's leaving options open to himself, such as making Raliegh or Kizaru the superior fighter. Which once again brings us back to trying to predict shit based on the pants is a futile exercise.


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## Akitō (Mar 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It's  actually pretty common considering the amount of Zoan users; what is there 500 in Kaidou's employ alone. Even Zoro despite not having a DF, seems to enjoy increased physical abilities in Asura-Form. Than of course there is Haki, which Raliegh just so happens to be a master of.



Why wouldn't have Rayleigh used Haki to boost his stats as much as he could when he was trying his very hardest and when he was on a legitimate time crunch because his friends were in danger? That makes no sense. 



> Honestly what battle with an Admiral is going to be settle with someone using basic physical attacks? I don't think even Roger or Prime-WB could pull that off.



Again, we don't know if that's all they used. And it won't just be settled with basic attacks, but them sparring and one of them having a clear edge might be indicative of overall superiority. 



> Sure I acknowledge that Kizaru seemed to have some sort of unquantifiable edge in stamina; thee single most worthless stat in terms of determining whose  a superior fighter or whose going to win, in the entire manga.



Okay, and then can you also acknowledge that Kizaru is even with him in speed and power? Because that was really what happened. If you just say, "Oh, Kizaru's better in stamina", it doesn't look that good. But when you consider the fact that they seemed to be even in basically all the other stats (or even enough that they didn't make much of a difference), then it obviously matters a lot.  



> How do you know Kizaru wasn't panting a shit ton more than Raliegh, off panel?



I don't, but there's no reason to assume that he was. There is a reason to assume that Rayleigh was dishing out all he had: he was on a massive time crunch because his friends were in danger and if he did beat Kizaru, he would be able to help them. 



> I'm sorry, but I can figure out when Luffy is having a tough time with an enemy w/o the panting, just as easily as I can figure out Raliegh was having a tough time w/ Kizaru - enough that he couldn't help the SHs with their enemies, w/o the panting. But Oda likes to show & tell; it's as simple as that.



Explain to me how in the hell you could possibly figure out that Luffy is at a disadvantage in a sparring session if he's fighting evenly with his opponent and neither of them are panting; in fact, even if you could somehow tell he was at a disadvantage, you can't honestly believe that the panting wouldn't make the situation appear worse for Luffy and make him seem to be at a bigger disadvantage than he would be at if he wasn't panting. There's a huge difference between 'having a tough time' and being in a worse position than your enemy. Panting is an extremely good indicator (one of many indicators, mind you) of who's at a disadvantageous position in the fight, but it's not necessary to show that someone is having a hard battle. 

Rayleigh panting literally adds nothing to the situation if Oda wasn't trying to show that he was in a disadvantageous position in that fight. 



> Here's the thing, if Oda wants the readers to acknowledge Raliegh panting as such a clear indication that he is the inferior fighter, than Raliegh should have also been able to realize he was the inferior fighter based on the same thing.



This isn't what I'm arguing for man. I don't necessarily think that Oda conciously made the decision that this fight was 'supposed' to equate to Kizaru being clearly stronger than Rayleigh. You're painting my argument to be way more extreme than it actually is. I just don't think that Oda in his mind would write the scene the way he did if Kizaru was weaker. Why write the weaker fighter to be winning an engagement that he knew was going to be inconclusive (i.e. thus there was no point dramatizing the fight because there weren't going to be any hills to it)? There are obviously reasons that we could both pull out, but I don't think they're very likely. 

And also, there's a big difference between reader-perspecitve and character-perspective. Just because it might be clear to us readers that something will happen doesn't mean that the characters know it, neither would it be necessarily logical for the characters to assume it. 



> You can argue well Raleigh believed he could turn events around, well okay that's all fine and dandy, but than your essentially arguing that basing shit on panting is BS, since the fight could have turned around. So which is it exactly. You can't argue the panting is indicative that Kizaru is the superior fighter, than turn around and argue that Raleigh believed he could still turn the fight around; I mean Raleigh knows his limits better than any of us, if he thought he could turn the fight around, than that panting is pretty meaningless.



Again, there's a difference between reader and author perspective and character perspective. I _can_ argue that in Oda's mind I don't think he'd write the stronger character losing an engagement but that from Rayleigh's perspective, it's perfectly logical that he could've come back in that fight. Panting in a fight as you said doesn't mean much in and of itself because fights often are back-and-forth. That doesn't go against my stance at all though because I'm approaching this from an authorial perspective and what I think would Oda would do. 



> Here's the thing if Raliegh has an advanced form such as Vergo's full body Haki [or even Luffy's CoA that covers his entire limbs] or something like Zoro's Asura-Form, Oda showing Base-Raliegh fighting Kizaru no problem, would make Advanced-Form Raliegh too strong.



Why wouldn't have Rayleigh used this if he had it? It simply isn't logical for him not to use it, and I think we should give the benefit of the doubt to Oda and assume that he wouldn't be such a terrible writer that Rayleigh could simply activate a form and decimate his opponent.



> That's why I don't necessary like the exercise of trying to mind-read the author.



Both of our stances have to do with mind-reading the author. Yours is implying that you do think Oda would write a weaker character winning against a stronger a character. That isn't bad - it's just part of the opinion. I don't get why you'd visit this section if you're literally only going to form your opinions from facts; IMO it's good to try to guesstimate what authors do. 



> If WB one-shotted him It still wouldn't have taken his hype away for me. Same way that I'd still be hyped to see what John the Giant can do, against anyone who is no WSM.



It's not even the hype, necessarily, although I do think it'd take away from his hype. It's the drama and suspense that comes along with someone losing if they've never lost before. Readers are excited to finally see Doflamingo get seriously hurt because he's barely been scratched up until now; even in the Whitebeard War, he was constantly laughing and toying with strong opponents, not even getting hit a single time. It's part of that invincibility aura.



> Actually i'm not trying to make Oda take any approach, I'm saying that Oda has no reason to play it coy, if he wants people to know Kizaru is the superior fighter. If Oda wants shit to be ambiguous, which honestly I believe that is indeed the case, than there is nothing heavy handed about that approach.



Well, you're asking why Oda didn't take the heavy-handed approach. And I'm saying that he didn't because the approach is heavy-handed. 



> Well than if he doesn't want it to be definitive than he's leaving options open to himself, such as making Raliegh or Kizaru the superior fighter. Which once again brings us back to trying to predict shit based on the pants is a futile exercise.



The first sentence is true, and it's something that I think everyone agrees with. The second sentence is illogical in my mind. Something can still be probably true or the most logical thing to believe and not be a certain fact. This is part of the process of analyzing these types of fights. I honestly believe that in Oda's mind he wouldn't have written that fight the way he did if he thought Kizaru was weaker. That doesn't mean that he might not later change his mind and make Rayleigh the stronger character, but it also doesn't mean that at this point in time, that very well could be the most logical belief for us to believe (depending on how you view Oda as a writer).


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## Lawliet (Mar 10, 2014)

Holy mother shit


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## Magician (Mar 10, 2014)

Someone change the thread title to Turrin vs Akito.


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## Dellinger (Mar 10, 2014)

Kizaru should get the props because he answered to Rayleigh's challenge with a sword,which isn't his main fighting style.


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Why wouldn't have Rayleigh used Haki to boost his stats as much as he could when he was trying his very hardest and when he was on a legitimate time crunch because his friends were in danger? That makes no sense.
> .


In the beginning Raliegh seemed to believe if he held off Kizaru the SH would be able to escape, he only became aware of how strong Kizaru's subordinates were towards the end of Ch512, even still the SH's weren't being completely overpowered until Kuma showed up and started doing his thing,  which pretty much brings us full circle to the scene in question, where Raliegh acknowledges the SH's are in serious trouble and the panting happens. It's at this point that Raliegh probably would have started to pull out his better shit, because the situation had become dire, however it is also in this moment that Kuma tells Raliegh that he's actually their to save the SHs, so at that point there was no reason for Raliegh to defeat Kizaru anymore.

Or to put this another way, Raleigh started the match as all Shonen-Characters due, using his more basic shit and feeling out his enemy. by the time the situation had become dire, Kuma arrived to tell Raliegh his plan, basically ending the need for conflict. In-fact the whole thing seems very carefully crafted by Oda, specifically to make sure both Kizaru and Raliegh didn't have to go all out in that instance.

Beyond that, let's think about this for a second; Raliegh did not once use CoA to the point where any of his limbs or weapons became the dark black color which represents the higher order CoA. Do we really think Raliegh who was portrayed as the Haki master, is unable to recreate the CoA feats of Vergo/Luffy? Also what about CoC, he didn't use it once against Kizaru; now you can say that's because CoC wouldn't knock out Kizaru, but do you honestly believe that's all their is going to be to something as hyped as CoC [knocking out Fodder?]. To me it is absolutely obvious that Raliegh was only demonstrating the low level of his Haki abilities against Kizaru, just to make sure he could hit him. I also seriously doubt a swordsmen of Raliegh's caliber doesn't have something similar to Asura-Form



> Okay, and then can you also acknowledge that Kizaru is even with him in speed and power? Because that was really what happened. If you just say, "Oh, Kizaru's better in stamina", it doesn't look that good. But when you consider the fact that they seemed to be even in basically all the other stats (or even enough that they didn't make much of a difference), then it obviously matters a lot.


When Raliegh is using basic attacks and the bar minimum of Haki, sure. 



> Explain to me how in the hell you could possibly figure out that Luffy is at a disadvantage in a sparring session if he's fighting evenly with his opponent and neither of them are pantin


There are a myriad of ways to tell:
- If we've seen the person Luffy is fighting using more advanced techniques or forms, than what he's using to currently keep pace w/ Luffy
- From the Dialog
-  General disposition of both fighters; facial expressions, attitude, etc..
- etc...



> Rayleigh panting literally adds nothing to the situation if Oda wasn't trying to show that he was in a disadvantageous position in that fight.


It supported Raliegh's words that he had gotten too old to take on the SH's other enemies at the same time as Kizaru. I mean why do you think the panting happened in the same exact panel that Raliegh makes that statement. Again Oda was both showing and telling.



> This isn't what I'm arguing for man. I don't necessarily think that Oda conciously made the decision that this fight was 'supposed' to equate to Kizaru being clearly stronger than Rayleigh. You're painting my argument to be way more extreme than it actually is. I just don't think that Oda in his mind would write the scene the way he did if Kizaru was weaker. Why write the weaker fighter to be winning an engagement that he knew was going to be inconclusive (i.e. thus there was no point dramatizing the fight because there weren't going to be any hills to it)?


Honestly your standpoint makes zero sense to me bruv. How can Oda not consciously make a decision as to who is a superior fighter, yet at the same time make the conscious decision to put panting in their as an indication that Kizaru is the superior fighter or even that Kizaru is not the inferior fighter. 



> There are obviously reasons that we could both pull out, but I don't think they're very likely


Which is my whole point about not liking to mind read the author.



> Again, there's a difference between reader and author perspective and character perspective. I can argue that in Oda's mind I don't think he'd write the stronger character losing an engagement but that from Rayleigh's perspective, it's perfectly logical that he could've come back in that fight. Panting in a fight as you said doesn't mean much in and of itself because fights often are back-and-forth. That doesn't go against my stance at all though because I'm approaching this from an authorial perspective and what I think would Oda would do.


Yes it does, because Oda is writing the characters, and he has written Raliegh as a wise seasoned vet fighter; if Oda does not think Raliegh would acknowledge the panting as a sign of his inferiority, I find it unlikely that indication is really suppose to be there in the first place. But again I don't like to mind-read the author, so whatever.



> Both of our stances have to do with mind-reading the author. Yours is implying that you do think Oda would write a weaker character winning against a stronger a character. That isn't bad - it's just part of the opinion. I don't get why you'd visit this section if you're literally only going to form your opinions from facts; IMO it's good to try to guesstimate what authors do.


No they don't. My stance is very simply that we don't know who would win and who is superior; it's too ambiguous to tell. That requires no mind-reading whatsoever. I'm simply demonstrating alternative possibilities; i'm not arguing for any of these possibilities in particular as you are arguing for a specific possibility in terms of the panting.

I mean if I wanted to I could play the mind-read game based on the idea of why would Oda have Kizaru stated that even if he + backup were to try to defeat Raliegh and take him captive it would still require a special set up, if Kizaru was really superior to Raliegh? Or why did Kizaru back off from taking down Raliegh after the SHs were dealt with? But i'm not doing that shit, because i'm specifically trying to avoid mind reading the author based on very ambiguous information.



> It's not even the hype, necessarily, although I do think it'd take away from his hype. It's the drama and suspense that comes along with someone losing if they've never lost before. Readers are excited to finally see Doflamingo get seriously hurt because he's barely been scratched up until now; even in the Whitebeard War, he was constantly laughing and toying with strong opponents, not even getting hit a single time. It's part of that invincibility aura.


What can I say man, other than it would take nothing away for me, because WB is way more powerful than Luffy at this point. Only wat that the suspense/drama would be taken away is if someone around Luffy's level [or weaker than Luffy] defeated Doflamingo before Luffy fought him. Than it would loose suspense, because we already know Luffy stands a good chance of winning. For example Luffy vs Vergo would not be as suspenseful or dramatic at this point, because Law already beat Vergo and most people agree Luffy should be around Law's level. However if say Marco defeat Vergo, it would still be suspenseful if Luffy went up against him, because Luffy is not Marco-level yet.



> Well, you're asking why Oda didn't take the heavy-handed approach. And I'm saying that he didn't because the approach is heavy-handed.


No i'm saying if he wanted people to know for sure that Kizaru > Raliegh having a statement be made or showing Kizaru best Raliegh is not very heavy handed, it's exactly the appropriate amount of "handedness" to make that clear to the reader. 



> The second sentence is illogical in my mind. Something can still be probably true or the most logical thing to believe and not be a certain fact. This is part of the process of analyzing these types of fights. I honestly believe that in Oda's mind he wouldn't have written that fight the way he did if he thought Kizaru was weaker. That doesn't mean that he might not later change his mind and make Rayleigh the stronger character, but it also doesn't mean that at this point in time, that very well could be the most logical belief for us to believe (depending on how you view Oda as a writer).


If Oda is intentionally leaving options open to himself than there is no probably true, because it means Oda himself did not decide yet, and if that's the case it can go anyway at this point.


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## Akitō (Mar 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> In the beginning Raliegh seemed to believe if he held off Kizaru the SH would be able to escape, he only became aware of how strong Kizaru's subordinates were towards the end of Ch512, even still the SH's weren't being completely overpowered until Kuma showed up and started doing his thing,  which pretty much brings us full circle to the scene in question, where Raliegh acknowledges the SH's are in serious trouble and the panting happens. It's at this point that Raliegh probably would have started to pull out his better shit, because the situation had become dire, however it is also in this moment that Kuma tells Raliegh that he's actually their to save the SHs, so at that point there was no reason for Raliegh to defeat Kizaru anymore.
> 
> Or to put this another way, Raleigh started the match as all Shonen-Characters due, using his more basic shit and feeling out his enemy. by the time the situation had become dire, Kuma arrived to tell Raliegh his plan, basically ending the need for conflict. In-fact the whole thing seems very carefully crafted by Oda, specifically to make sure both Kizaru and Raliegh didn't have to go all out in that instance.



You must've not read the sequence closely enough then. There was never any point where Rayleigh should've been confident enough that he could assume that the Strawhats would escape with certainty - every scene that we get of them running from the cyborgs we see them at a clear disadvantage. In fact, right before Kuma appears, they're about to be finished off by PX-1. I've no idea why he'd be so casual when his friends are about to die. Moreover, he watches as several of the Strawhats disappear right before his eyes. You'd think that in that moment he'd at least have gone all-out and boosted his stats. It was only after some of them disappeared that Kuma told Rayleigh his plans, a point where from Rayleigh's perspective he could've been helping them if he had gotten past Kizaru. 

Beyond that, he actually says that , but implies that he can't. This was before Kuma made known his plans to him. The implication here is that he can't do anymore than he's already doing. Even the fact that he says later on that he's not as old as he used to be so he can't help them (the scene right before Kuma appears to him) indicates that he isn't strong enough to get past Kizaru. 



> Beyond that, let's think about this for a second; Raliegh did not once use CoA to the point where any of his limbs or weapons became the dark black color which represents the higher order CoA. Do we really think Raliegh who was portrayed as the Haki master, is unable to recreate the CoA feats of Vergo/Luffy? Also what about CoC, he didn't use it once against Kizaru; now you can say that's because CoC wouldn't knock out Kizaru, but do you honestly believe that's all their is going to be to something as hyped as CoC [knocking out Fodder?]. To me it is absolutely obvious that Raliegh was only demonstrating the low level of his Haki abilities against Kizaru, just to make sure he could hit him. I also seriously doubt a swordsmen of Raliegh's caliber doesn't have something similar to Asura-Form



It might be that Oda doesn't feel like drawing blackened skin every time someone uses Haki. Or it might be that once you get high-level enough, it doesn't turn black anymore. The fact remains that he'd have liked to get past Kizaru but couldn't, implying that he was using everything he had or that if he wasn't, what he was holding back still wouldn't have been enough. 

We've seen top-tiers fight against each other in absolutely crucial moments (i.e. during the Whitebeard War) and their skin didn't turn black. So unless you're saying that these top-tiers either didn't have strong enough Haki to make their skin black or wouldn't use their strongest moves in the most dire of situations, you've got to chalk it up to either inconsistency on Oda's part or something else (like really strong Haki not turning the skin black). 



> There are a myriad of ways to tell:
> - If we've seen the person Luffy is fighting using more advanced techniques or forms, than what he's using to currently keep pace w/ Luffy
> - From the Dialog
> -  General disposition of both fighters; facial expressions, attitude, etc..
> - etc...



I meant if he had in a situation like Kizaru vs. Rayleigh where they're both using the same level of attacks, neither is really commenting and they're not making any clear signs of weakness. I don't even understand what your argument is here. Are you trying to tell me that panting _doesn't_ indicate that you're in a disadvantageous position if your enemy isn't panting and the fight appears to be even? 



> Honestly your standpoint makes zero sense to me bruv. How can Oda not consciously make a decision as to who is a superior fighter, yet at the same time make the conscious decision to put panting in their as an indication that Kizaru is the superior fighter or even that Kizaru is not the inferior fighter.



Because he isn't thinking, "_This_ scene is meant to portray Kizaru as the clear stronger fighter and the readers should read it that way". Instead, it could be just that in his mind he thinks Kizaru is stronger, which is why he drew him as having a slight advantage there. It's more of an off-hand type of thing. 'Conscious decision' might've been a poor way of expressing myself. 



> No they don't. My stance is very simply that we don't know who would win and who is superior; it's too ambiguous to tell. That requires no mind-reading whatsoever. I'm simply demonstrating alternative possibilities; i'm not arguing for any of these possibilities in particular as you are arguing for a specific possibility in terms of the panting.



Yes, you are man. You are arguing that you think Oda could very well write a character who is stronger in a clearly disadvantageous position against a weaker character. That is mind-reading the author because you're guesstimating his thought process. 



> I mean if I wanted to I could play the mind-read game based on the idea of why would Oda have Kizaru stated that even if he + backup were to try to defeat Raliegh and take him captive it would still require a special set up, if Kizaru was really superior to Raliegh? Or why did Kizaru back off from taking down Raliegh after the SHs were dealt with?



And I'd answer by saying that: a.) it's a lot harder to capture someone than it is to defeat them in straight combat and b.) he had to go set up for the war. 



> No i'm saying if he wanted people to know for sure that Kizaru > Raliegh having a statement be made or showing Kizaru best Raliegh is not very heavy handed, it's exactly the appropriate amount of "handedness" to make that clear to the reader.



I'll say it again: I don't think he wanted the readers _for sure_ to _take away_ from that scene that Kizaru is stronger than Rayleigh. I think that in his mind, he believes Kizaru to be stronger and having him in an advantageous position against Rayleigh is the product of that belief. Whether or not he intended for the readers to take something absolute from that scene is different. 



> If Oda is intentionally leaving options open to himself than there is no probably true, because it means Oda himself did not decide yet, and if that's the case it can go anyway at this point.



Um, no. The very fact that it is 'probably true' leaves it open to other possibilities. That's a fact. If something is probably true, that means it isn't absolute and there could be something else possible. It means that it is the most likely outcome. 

And yes, it can go any way. That doesn't mean that one of the ways isn't a more likely option than the other. This is the exact same problem that I remember you having in the other thread. Just because something isn't definitive doesn't mean that there isn't a more likely option, nor does there being a likely option mean that that option is a fact.


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2014)

Akitō said:


> You must've not read the sequence closely enough then. There was never any point where Rayleigh should've been confident enough that he could assume that the Strawhats would escape with certainty - every scene that we get of them running from the cyborgs we see them at a clear disadvantage. In fact, right before Kuma appears, they're about to be finished off by PX-1. I've no idea why he'd be so casual when his friends are about to die. Moreover, he watches as several of the Strawhats disappear right before his eyes. You'd think that in that moment he'd at least have gone all-out and boosted his stats. It was only after some of them disappeared that Kuma told Rayleigh his plans, a point where from Rayleigh's perspective he could've been helping them if he had gotten past Kizaru.
> .


Raliegh didn't even know how strong Sentomaru and PX-1 were until towards the end of Ch 512. From there he acknowledge they were strong, but he still was aware of the fact that the SH's defeated another PX-model previously, so there was not reason to think that the SH would be completely incapable of handling their business, until Kuma arrived. As for why he didn't up his game immediately the moment Kuma warped away the first SH, I think your aspecting a-lot out of the man who is preoccupied with an Admiral. I mean did he even have a chance to see what Kuma was doing? And how fast did Kuma warp them, I mean Kuma can teleport, so that whole sequence of events was probably quite quick.



> Beyond that, he actually says that he'd like to help them, but implies that he can't. This was before Kuma made known his plans to him. The implication here is that he can't do anymore than he's already doing. Even the fact that he says later on that he's not as old as he used to be so he can't help them (the scene right before Kuma appears to him) indicates that he isn't strong enough to get past Kizaru.


I'm sorry, but I don't read that scene that way. The first time Raliegh says he'd like to help, I think the implication there is Raliegh is thinking he might not be able to, but it isn't until the panting panel where he confirms it for himself that he won't be able to take on Kizaru and the others at the same time. Otherwise their would be no point in repeating the same exact sentiment.

And it's not that he isn't strong enough to get past Kizaru, it's that he's not strong enough to take Kizaru and the others at the same time. 


> It might be that Oda doesn't feel like drawing blackened skin every time someone uses Haki. Or it might be that once you get high-level enough, it doesn't turn black anymore. The fact remains that he'd have liked to get past Kizaru but couldn't, implying that he was using everything he had or that if he wasn't, what he was holding back still wouldn't have been enough.


- The Oda doesn't feel like drawing is an extremely weak excuse. 
- The idea that higher-level fighters don't manifest Black-Haki is also a weak excuses considering that Garp's Haki also turned black, so unless your saying he isn't high-level enough, this is really poor reasoning.



> We've seen top-tiers fight against each other in absolutely crucial moments (i.e. during the Whitebeard War) and their skin didn't turn black. So unless you're saying that these top-tiers either didn't have strong enough Haki to make their skin black or wouldn't use their strongest moves in the most dire of situations, you've got to chalk it up to either inconsistency on Oda's part or something else (like really strong Haki not turning the skin black).


What characters who were indicated to be Haki masters went all out in the War?



> I meant if he had in a situation like Kizaru vs. Rayleigh where they're both using the same level of attacks, neither is really commenting and they're not making any clear signs of weakness. I don't even understand what your argument is here. Are you trying to tell me that panting doesn't indicate that you're in a disadvantageous position if your enemy isn't panting and the fight appears to be even?


If you remember the point was about the fact that Oda both shows & tells. You said he doesn't, and that the panting was necessary, and I said there are ways to tell if one fighter is pressured w/o utilizing panting, but many times Oda utilizes multiple ways to demonstrate a character is pressured.



> Because he isn't thinking, "This scene is meant to portray Kizaru as the clear stronger fighter and the readers should read it that way". Instead, it could be just that in his mind he thinks Kizaru is stronger, which is why he drew him as having a slight advantage there. It's more of an off-hand type of thing. 'Conscious decision' might've been a poor way of expressing myself


So according to this even Oda did not intend fans to take Panting to mean anything; but somehow you are reading through this Oda's mind. I'm sorry, but this is too far fetched for me.



> Yes, you are man. You are arguing that you think Oda could very well write a character who is stronger in a clearly disadvantageous position against a weaker character. That is mind-reading the author because you're guesstimating his thought process.


How is this mind-reading when Oda has written stronger characters in disadvantageous positions in the past [Zoro vs Kaku for example]. There is literally nothing mind-reading about this; i'm just stating a fact.



> And I'd answer by saying that: a.) it's a lot harder to capture someone than it is to defeat them in straight combat and b.) he had to go set up for the war.


And i'd answer, by repeating that I don't want to go down that road, because I think mind-reading the author is not a good way to go about thing in this instance.


> I'll say it again: I don't think he wanted the readers for sure to take away from that scene that Kizaru is stronger than Rayleigh. I think that in his mind, he believes Kizaru to be stronger and having him in an advantageous position against Rayleigh is the product of that belief. Whether or not he intended for the readers to take something absolute from that scene is different.


I'm not going to both mind reading Oda w/ you bro. If you want to believe you can some-how know what Oda is thinking, whatever, but I don't see that as a compelling argument in the slightest.



> Um, no. The very fact that it is 'probably true' leaves it open to other possibilities. That's a fact. If something is probably true, that means it isn't absolute and there could be something else possible. It means that it is the most likely outcome.


There is nothing probably-true about you coming to a conclusion based on what you think Oda is thinking. I'm sorry, but that shit is ridiculous sir. At most you could say you find it slightly more likely that Kizaru is stronger, but probably implies there is a very high chance of it being true, when that is an utterly ridiculous sentiment to take away from some mere panting.



> And yes, it can go any way. That doesn't mean that one of the ways isn't a more likely option than the other. This is the exact same problem that I remember you having in the other thread. Just because something isn't definitive doesn't mean that there isn't a more likely option, nor does there being a likely option mean that that option is a fact.


In your opinion it's more likely, but let's be clear here, even going off your opinion, you can at best argue it's slightly more likely, and still very much anything can happen.


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## Akitō (Mar 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Raliegh didn't even know how strong Sentomaru and PX-1 were until towards the end of Ch 512. From there he acknowledge they were strong, but he still was aware of the fact that the SH's defeated another PX-model previously, so there was not reason to think that the SH would be completely incapable of handling their business, until Kuma arrived.



Who says that they have to be completely incapable for Rayleigh to have a reason to try his hardest? Luffy was able to easily tell that his crew was in trouble. They were screaming throughout, and anyone that was watching should've been able to tell that they definitely weren't absolutely certain to escape. What you're implying is that Rayleigh didn't try because he thought they would have a good chance of escaping (and even 'good chance' is subject to debate considering how things went). He must not have much concern for his friends' safety then. 

But anyway, this point is irrelevant considering his statements. 



> As for why he didn't up his game immediately the moment Kuma warped away the first SH, I think your aspecting a-lot out of the man who is preoccupied with an Admiral. I mean did he even have a chance to see what Kuma was doing? And how fast did Kuma warp them, I mean Kuma can teleport, so that whole sequence of events was probably quite quick.



He did because he commented on their situation and how he'd like to help them after Kuma appeared. He then had the time interval between Kuma warping Zoro and Kuma appearing to him to try his hardest. And the sequence of events was quick, but certainly not so quick that Rayleigh can't boost his stats or at least attempt to. 



> I'm sorry, but I don't read that scene that way. The first time Raliegh says he'd like to help, I think the implication there is Raliegh is thinking he might not be able to, but it isn't until the panting panel where he confirms it for himself that he won't be able to take on Kizaru and the others at the same time. Otherwise their would be no point in repeating the same exact sentiment.



You're missing the point. The key thing to take out of this is that he wanted to help. It's not that he understood that he couldn't help. _It's that his desire was to get past Kizaru and help the crew._ He said this well before Kuma appeared before him, and even said it again right before Kuma appeared before him. If he wanted to do that, surely he would've tried his hardest, right? 



> And it's not that he isn't strong enough to get past Kizaru, it's that he's not strong enough to take Kizaru and the others at the same time.



Not necessarily. He wasn't able to help them. Why? Because he was taking on Kizaru and couldn't get past him. If he could get past him, then logically he'd be able to have _some_ sort of impact. 'Helping' doesn't translate to an immediate victory or anything like that: it could simply mean that he's there to occupy Kuma and Sentomaru's attention, as opposed to only occupying Kizaru's attention. 

Just because he can't take them all on by himself doesn't mean that he wouldn't be able to help them if he could get past Kizaru. 



> - The Oda doesn't feel like drawing is an extremely weak excuse.
> - The idea that higher-level fighters don't manifest Black-Haki is also a weak excuses considering that Garp's Haki also turned black, so unless your saying he isn't high-level enough, this is really poor reasoning.



I don't think it is, but whatever. 

How do you know Garp used his highest form of Haki when he punched Chinjao (which is the scene I'm assuming that you're referring to)? Or sure, he might've not been high-level enough, although I don't think this is the case at all. 

This simplest explanation for all of this honestly is that Rayleigh didn't think using advanced forms of Haki would help (if you hold the sentiment that he draws all Haki the same i.e. black). That way there's no contradictions and it sense from an in-universe perspective. 



> What characters who were indicated to be Haki masters went all out in the War?



Whitebeard fought Akainu when he was extremely angry and when his Haki seemed to be working perfectly fine and his body never turned black. None of the Admirals' bodies ever turned black and most of them went all-out. 

You're probably going to argue that they either aren't Haki masters or that they were too sick and injured (in the case of Whitebeard) to use Haki sufficiently. So I'll ask you whether or not you honestly believe that Luffy after a mere two years of training is better in Haki than the Admirals are, one of whom fought Rayleigh to a standstill when he was certainly trying his hardest to get past the man. 



> If you remember the point was about the fact that Oda both shows & tells. You said he doesn't, and that the panting was necessary, and I said there are ways to tell if one fighter is pressured w/o utilizing panting, but many times Oda utilizes multiple ways to demonstrate a character is pressured.



And so do you not believe that if one character is panting and the other isn't and they're seemingly fighting evenly, then the character who is panting is in a disadvantageous position _at that point in the fight_? Keep in mind that this doesn't at all mean that the panting character will always lose or that he's weaker. Because I'm pretty sure that this is how the argument originally began, although I might be mistaken on this. 



> So according to this even Oda did not intend fans to take Panting to mean anything; but somehow you are reading through this Oda's mind. I'm sorry, but this is too far fetched for me.



Er, this is just a really misleading way of portraying my argument. IMO Oda did not write the scene because he wanted to show that Rayleigh was weaker. IMO he did write the scene because he thought Rayleigh was weaker. That's a better and more accurate way of phrasing it. 



> How is this mind-reading when Oda has written stronger characters in disadvantageous positions in the past [Zoro vs Kaku for example]. There is literally nothing mind-reading about this; i'm just stating a fact.



There's a key difference, and it's that Rayleigh vs. Kizaru was intended to be inconclusive from the beginning. You're assuming that Oda would write an inconclusive fight in the way I already explained. That _is_ mind-reading. 



> There is nothing probably-true about you coming to a conclusion based on what you think Oda is thinking. I'm sorry, but that shit is ridiculous sir. At most you could say you find it slightly more likely that Kizaru is stronger, but probably implies there is a very high chance of it being true, when that is an utterly ridiculous sentiment to take away from some mere panting.



I find the sentiment that Oda would write an inconclusive fight where the stronger character is clearly at a disadvantageous to be an unlikely sentiment. I can understand why someone would believe it, but it's just something that I really do not think will be true. 'Slightly' is an underestimate, I think, because my view is based on how I view Oda as a writer, and that view is something that I think is accurate. If that view is correct, then this belief is certain to be correct too. 

I don't understand why I can't have the belief that Oda is very likely to do something. It's interpretation.


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2014)

@Akitō

I kind of tire of this discussion, because it's most boiling down to mind-reading the author, and I honestly don't think conversations such as these will go anywhere, but in circles, as there is no way to prove anything. The only thing I will comment on is this:



> There's a key difference, and it's that Rayleigh vs. Kizaru was intended to be inconclusive from the beginning. You're assuming that Oda would write an inconclusive fight in the way I already explained. That is mind-reading.


I'm not assuming anything. I'm saying I don't know what Oda's intentions are. All I'm saying is panting is not good enough evidence to prove ether fighter is superior or would win. Even you agree with this, you just think it's more likely that Kizaru is stronger, due to you Oda-Mind-Reading ability, while I'm not bothering to mind read at all. The fight is inconclusive and the panting is too ambiguous to prove anything.


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## Magician (Mar 12, 2014)

The war is almost over, thank the gods.


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## trance (Mar 12, 2014)

A war? Pffft. Corus vs. Akito eclipsed this.


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## Akitō (Mar 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm not assuming anything. I'm saying I don't know what Oda's intentions are.



Are you telling me that you are _not_ assuming Oda would write an inconclusive fight in the way that he did where the stronger character is at a clear disadvantage? This is your belief man. The contrary opinion is that Oda wouldn't write the stronger character as being at a disadvantage. Just because he 'would' doesn't necessarily mean that he did, mind you. It simply means that it's an open possibility, which is exactly what you're arguing for. 

In other words, if you don't believe my stance, you _have_ to take the other stance (which is also an assumption); the other stance however is a little more open to possibilities because it basically says that Oda would write it that way if he felt like it (again, that's what you're saying). 

Or am I misunderstanding something here?


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## Shanks (Mar 13, 2014)

You 2 please make sure you register for the next formal debate.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Mar 13, 2014)

Ray wins high diff

Rays COO > Akainus attacks

Rays Haki and swordsmanship > Akainus defense/Haki ( or any admiral for that matter)

Endurance wont really play a factor here because Rayleigh has the tools to take out Akainu and pretty fast too

Marco and Vistas haki allowed them to "hit" Akainu

If Rayleigh gets a shot like that, Akainu dies

A lot of people think that Shanks >= Akainu
Well if thats the case then I see Rayleigh as a Shanks with beter haki, swordsmanship, strength, speed, and less endurance

Rayleigh made Kizaru look dumb w/o using a sword for 20+ years

Imagine what Prime Rayleigh does?


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Are you telling me that you are _not_ assuming Oda would write an inconclusive fight in the way that he did where the stronger character is at a clear disadvantage? This is your belief man. The contrary opinion is that Oda wouldn't write the stronger character as being at a disadvantage. Just because he 'would' doesn't necessarily mean that he did, mind you. It simply means that it's an open possibility, which is exactly what you're arguing for.


As stressed before, I'm saying I don't know. I think all options are possible, because I don't know what Oda is thinking. 



> In other words, if you don't believe my stance, you have to take the other stance (which is also an assumption); the other stance however is a little more open to possibilities because it basically says that Oda would write it that way if he felt like it (again, that's what you're saying).


No I don't have to take any stance. I'm saying the scene is too ambiguous to prove anything, something even your stance agreed with or are you now changing your mind?


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## Akitō (Mar 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> As stressed before, I'm saying I don't know. I think all options are possible, because I don't know what Oda is thinking.



Read my post again then, because that's exactly what I said your belief is. Just responding with "I'm not assuming anything" is a cop out man. I don't get why you're so resistant to admit that you _are_ mind-reading the author - every debate in this section has a bit of mind-reading. 

You are saying that you don't know, but in saying that, you are implying that you do believe Oda would write a weaker character beating a stronger character in an inconclusive fight. That's fine, but it's still making an assumption. 



> No I don't have to take any stance. I'm saying the scene is too ambiguous to prove anything, something even your stance agreed with or are you now changing your mind?



This was never really a point of contention. Just to clarify, the argument that I initially targeted was that panting didn't even indicate that someone was in a disadvantageous position, which we I think both agreed was kind of stupid (remember, being in a disadvantageous position does _not_ that you're using everything you have, nor does it mean that you're unable to go to a next level and beat the shit out of your enemy). The second argument that I targeted was that it literally doesn't mean anything in terms of determining a winner, which is also completely different than it _proving_ an outcome. I've never denied that this fight proves absolutely nothing besides the fact that Rayleigh can fight evenly with Kizaru for a few minutes, but depending on how you view Oda as a writer, it could implicate something beyond just the surface interpretation.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 13, 2014)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Ray wins high diff
> 
> *Rays COO > Akainus attacks*


Not sure what you mean here...


Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Rays Haki and swordsmanship > Akainus defense/Haki ( or any admiral for that matter)
> 
> Endurance wont really play a factor here because Rayleigh has the tools to take out Akainu and pretty fast too
> 
> ...


Marco, just like Rayleigh, could make Kizaru tangible, but even with Vista helping him, Marco failed to make Akainu tangible. At best, they only caused Akainu some discomfort. We cannot assume that Rayleigh can do better than a bloodlusted pair of two of Whitebeard's best men unless we're shown otherwise. And are you implying that swords > Whitebeard's Island Splitter?


Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> A lot of people think that Shanks >= Akainu
> Well if thats the case then I see Rayleigh as a Shanks with beter haki, swordsmanship, strength, speed, and less endurance


Rayleigh, gambler, drunkard, and retired. Shanks, active pirate, still fairly young, and is already one of the Yonko. I hope you see the difference.


Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Rayleigh made Kizaru look dumb w/o using a sword for 20+ years


Kizaru only got *one* slight cut when Rayleigh stopped him from using his mirror to go after the Straw Hats. After that, Rayleigh was panting and sweating in a swordfight, whereas Kizaru showed no signs of fatigue.


Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Imagine what Prime Rayleigh does?


Except we don't know how much stronger they were in their prime.


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## hurrrrrrrd (Mar 13, 2014)

Rayleigh isn't a fucking joke. The only thing his words while fighting Kizaru suggested was that he couldn't take on Kizaru, Sentoumaru and Kuma all at once like he (presumably)could in his prime.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Mar 13, 2014)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Not sure what you mean here...



Observation Haki



> Marco, just like Rayleigh, could make Kizaru tangible, but even with Vista helping him, Marco failed to make Akainu tangible. At best, they only caused Akainu some discomfort. We cannot assume that Rayleigh can do better than a bloodlusted pair of two of Whitebeard's best men unless we're shown otherwise. *And are you implying that swords > Whitebeard's Island Splitter?*



They made Akainu tangible, they just couldn't do any damage

We kinda can because Rayleigh actually did damage to an admiral

He has better swordmanship than Vista and better Haki than Marco so yes he'll do better

@ the bold: Where'd you get that from , I never said that




> Rayleigh, gambler, drunkard, and retired. Shanks, active pirate, still fairly young, and is already one of the Yonko. I hope you see the difference.



Rayleigh,  former right man of PK, 3 types of Haki, high level swordsmanship, physical strength, and speed, despite rusty with sword still managed to stalemate an Admiral

Shanks, Yonkou, 2 types of Haki shown, one armed swordsman, high level physical strength and speed

Yes,  I see the the difference and Rayleigh is still >Shanks




> Kizaru only got *one* slight cut when Rayleigh stopped him from using his mirror to go after the Straw Hats. After that, Rayleigh was panting and sweating in a swordfight, whereas Kizaru showed no signs of fatigue.



His goal wasn't to kill Kizaru , he was just trrying to let the SHs flee, and he did that w/o a scratch on him and didnt get captured

Plus even Kizaru said Rayleigh was making look bad



> Except we don't know how much stronger they were in their prime.



Admirals can't beat Old WB, who Ray isn't too far behind

And the only guys probably stronger than Prime Ray are probably Prime Roger, WB, and Garp

Which  even in their old incarnations could still beat an admiral

So while we dont know how strong their prime is, its safe to  assume that is comfortably above the admirals


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 13, 2014)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Ray wins high diff
> 
> Rays COO > Akainus attacks
> 
> ...



Rayleigh beating Akainu.


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## Imagine (Mar 13, 2014)

Mangeykou Byakugan back in full force I see.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 13, 2014)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Observation Haki


This is going to help Rayleigh survive against a guy who can fire massive bombardments of lava, and had the stamina to fight for ten days against an Admiral level opponent (whereas Rayleigh was getting tired in a swordfight)...how?


Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> They made Akainu tangible, they just couldn't do any damage
> 
> We kinda can because Rayleigh actually did damage to an admiral


Marco fought all of the Admirals and the only one he couldn't make tangible (even with Vista's help) was Akainu.


Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> *He has better swordmanship than Vista and better Haki than Marco* so yes he'll do better


Prove that Rayleigh's Haki can do better than the Haki of two of WB's best men.


Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> @ the bold: Where'd you get that from , I never said that


Here:


Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Rays Haki and swordsmanship > Akainus defense/Haki ( or any admiral for that matter)
> 
> *Endurance wont really play a factor here because Rayleigh has the tools to take out Akainu and pretty fast too*
> 
> ...


You said that Akainu's endurance (I think durability is a better term), which helped him survive an Island Splitter, isn't going to help him against Rayleigh. Care to elaborate on why that is?


Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> His goal wasn't to kill Kizaru , he was just trrying to let the SHs flee, and he did that w/o a scratch on him and didnt get captured


So you're essentially saying that Rayleigh wasn't trying his best against Kizaru, when Kuma was teleporting the Straw Hats away one by one? M'kay.


Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Plus even Kizaru said Rayleigh was making look bad



When Rayleigh was showing signs of fatigue and Kizrau wasn't.


Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Admirals can't beat Old WB, who Ray isn't too far behind


They fought fairly equally with Whitebeard. And Whitebeard beating one cost him half his face.


Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> And the only guys probably stronger than Prime Ray are probably Prime Roger, WB, and Garp
> 
> *Which  even in their old incarnations could still beat an admiral*


We know Whitebeard could. No sign shows Rayleigh could do it, especially since he was getting tired in a swordfight.


Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> So while we dont know how strong their prime is, its safe to  assume that is comfortably above the admirals


I doubt the difference is that huge.


Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Rayleigh,  former right man of PK, 3 types of Haki, high level swordsmanship, physical strength, and speed, despite rusty with sword still managed to stalemate an Admiral
> 
> Shanks, Yonkou, 2 types of Haki shown, one armed swordsman, high level physical strength and speed
> 
> *Yes,  I see the the difference and Rayleigh is still >Shanks*


...so, let me get this straight: you assume, that Rayleigh, who was getting tired in a swordfight (when Kizaru wasn't spamming his other DF moves), is *above* one of the Yonko, who is a leading candidate for WSM? And I thought Shanks was overrated. XD


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Read my post again then, because that's exactly what I said your belief is. Just responding with "I'm not assuming anything" is a cop out man. I don't get why you're so resistant to admit that you _are_ mind-reading the author - every debate in this section has a bit of mind-reading.
> 
> You are saying that you don't know, but in saying that, you are implying that you do believe Oda would write a weaker character beating a stronger character in an inconclusive fight. That's fine, but it's still making an assumption.


I'm fine with mind-reading, but in this instance I do not think there is enough there to make a compelling case and if we continued discussing the topic on that basses it would only go around in circles.

Akito saying any possibility can happen at this point is not mind-reading the author. Because it's stating a fact that Oda can make anything happen. Do I believe Oda could write an inconclusive match with the stronger character at a disadvantage, sure I do, he's the author he can do whatever the fuck he wants. Do I believe Oda would choose to do so, I don't know, which is why I consider many other things possible as well. 

That is inherently different than your stance, where you are picking a single possibility and deeming believing it to be the most probable, due to attempting to mind-read the author.



> I've never denied that this fight proves absolutely nothing besides the fact that Rayleigh can fight evenly with Kizaru for a few minutes, but depending on how you view Oda as a writer, it could implicate something beyond just the surface interpretation.


And that's the thing. At base this fight proves absolutely nothing, which is the stance i'm taking, that there isn't enough proof there. Rather than deciding to delve into trying to predict how Oda would write a certain scene and with what intentions.

However looking back there is one topic I find interesting and that is the Haki thing:



> You're probably going to argue that they either aren't Haki masters or that they were too sick and injured (in the case of Whitebeard) to use Haki sufficiently. So I'll ask you whether or not you honestly believe that Luffy after a mere two years of training is better in Haki than the Admirals are, one of whom fought Rayleigh to a standstill when he was certainly trying his hardest to get past the man.


Honestly I have a problem imagining that these characters are Haki masters, the reason being, that if we have characters with top notch DF abilities and at the same time they are also Haki masters it makes it difficult to see how non-DF users are still even remotely able to compete. I mean it's not like these top notch DF users are weak in physical areas. So there has to be something that differentiates them allowing the physical fighters to compete and it seems to me that the way Oda has been equalizing that has been Haki-Mastery. I guess you can make the argument that top non-DF users will simply never measure up to top DF users, but I don't think the manga has been structured so far, where that is indicated to be the case. Instead I feel as if the manga is much more structured in such a way where Haki is meant to equalize the advantages of DF mastery.

As for the Luffy's mastery of Haki, it's perfectly believable to me that Luffy would be better in Haki than the Admirals are after 2-years of training. Luffy is the MC, and therefore his growth rate is astronomical, even more astronomical in the case of Haki considering Raleigh states Luffy has a natural aptitude for it, and of course even further excelerated by having Raliegh as his teacher. I mean we are talking about the same guy who was able to master G2/G3, during a train ride to EL. 

As for the Admirals themselves not having high haki mastery. They probably devoted most of their time to mastering their DF, while learning the absolute basics of Haki, because for someone with ultra-OP DF, mastering that shit is the quicker route to power than mastering Haki.  Beyond that we are also told that certain character gravitate to a certain Haki type, so it may be characters like the Admirals that already have insane offensive potential from their OP-DF, naturally gravitate more to CoO Haki mastery, rather than CoC, or even if they don't they'd logically want CoO more than CoC, due to the nature of their fighting style. I mean it doesn't seem like CoC would be high on one of the color'd trio's priority list for things to master relevant to their fighting style.

As far as WB's concerned I feel as if much of the same applies.


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## Lawliet (Mar 13, 2014)

> . We cannot assume that Rayleigh can do better than a bloodlusted pair of two of Whitebeard's best men unless we're shown otherwise.



You gotta be joking right? Comparing these two shits to a person who can arguably be as strong as non but the PK himself in his prime? (Prime Rayleigh of course)

I can tolerate comparing Rayleigh to Marco, but to fucking Vista? You just took  bullshit into a whole new level...


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 13, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> You gotta be joking right? Comparing these two shits


One of whom stalemated Mihawk and the other has taken many of the most powerful attacks in the series without slowing down thanks to his regen.


oOLawlietOo said:


> to a person who can arguably be as strong as non but the PK himself in his prime? (Prime Rayleigh of course)


Prime Rayleigh would do better than Marco and Vista. Old Rayleigh? Unless we get more feats, we can't say if Old Rayleigh could have done better.


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## Lawliet (Mar 13, 2014)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> One of whom stalemated Mihawk and the other has taken many of the most powerful attacks in the series without slowing down thanks to his regen.
> 
> Prime Rayleigh would do better than Marco and Vista. Old Rayleigh? Unless we get more feats, we can't say if Old Rayleigh could have done better.



Old Rayleigh would still do better. You don't go from being a legend to shit like that. Yes, Marco and Vista are shit.

Old Rayleigh was still considered a legend and a threat that can't be dealt with at the same time as fucking WB and his army. That came from the mouth of Garp. Anything Garp says, I believe. 

Rayleigh got more experience than both Marco and Vista. Rayleigh was the right hand of the PK, Luffy's final mentor and his push into achieving his dream (Technically, MF was, but whatever).

Rayleigh aint ever getting outclassed by by fucking Marco and Vista, he would school these newbies any day of the week.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 13, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Old Rayleigh would still do better.
> 
> Rayleigh got more experience than both Marco and Vista. Rayleigh was the right hand of the PK, Luffy's final mentor and his push into achieving his dream (Technically, MF was, but whatever).
> 
> Rayleigh aint ever getting outclassed by by fucking Marco and Vista, he would school these newbies any day of the week.


Prove it.


oOLawlietOo said:


> You don't go from being a legend to shit like that.


Rayleigh certainly isn't what he once was after a few decades enjoying a retirement full of slacking off, drinking, and gambling.


oOLawlietOo said:


> Yes, Marco and Vista are shit.


So why didn't they get fodderized by their opponents? Kizaru needed a distraction + cuffs to injure Marco. Mihawk chose to run like a bitch rather than continue fighting Vista.


oOLawlietOo said:


> Old Rayleigh was still considered a legend and a threat that can't be dealt with at the same time as fucking WB and his army. That came from the mouth of Garp. Anything Garp says, I believe.


Kizaru still had the upper hand in their duel.


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## Lawliet (Mar 13, 2014)

I don't have to prove shit, all I know is these two ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) got nothing on the Dark King, and that's all I have to care about. Nothing I say will convince you and nothing you say will convince me, so let's just skip the part where we two can pretend to be highly educated and debate for hours. Rayleigh on the same situation would'v at least scratched Akainu, if not fatal injure him.


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## trance (Mar 13, 2014)

> Kizaru still had the upper hand in their duel.



Only because of greater stamina. In strength and speed, they were equal. If Rayleigh had been in his prime, he should've been able to decisively defeat Kizaru.

And, he is stronger than Marco. Marco is just a bad matchup.


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## Shanks (Mar 14, 2014)

Kizaru never had the upper hand in their duel. Sure, you can try to argue and downplay Ray's stamina, but that clash was dead even.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 14, 2014)

Sure Kizaru and Rayleigh were pretty much even.

But from what i recall all Kizaru did was swing around his light sword, and since when was kizaru a Grand Master level swordsmen? I saw no lasers, no kicks, basically kizaru was fighting on even grounds with Rayleigh without using his devil fruit for the most part.(His sword was created via devil fruit but you guys know what i mean).

If you can trade blows with one of the Pre-skip Admirals that is very impressive but um if you don't see a shit ton of Ice, Magma, or Light beams fucking shit up. Then perhaps they were not using all of there strength against you?


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## Magician (Mar 14, 2014)

What DD said.

That's like Luffy having a kicking match with Sanji.


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## Shanks (Mar 14, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Sure Kizaru and Rayleigh were pretty much even.
> 
> But from what i recall all Kizaru did was swing around his light sword, and since when was kizaru a Grand Master level swordsmen? I saw no lasers, no kicks, basically kizaru was fighting on even grounds with Rayleigh without using his devil fruit for the most part.(His sword was created via devil fruit but you guys know what i mean).
> 
> If you can trade blows with one of the Pre-skip Admirals that is very impressive but um if you don't see a shit ton of Ice, Magma, or Light beams fucking shit up. Then perhaps they were not using all of there strength against you?



They two both use the best offensive capabilities at that time to hold each other off. Lasers can be blocked with CoA and Kicks at short range risk being cut off. There is absolutely no reason for Kizuru or Ray to be holding back at that time. Kizaru also tried to teleport away and we know how well that went. Ray's kick was also fast and strong enough to defect Kizaru's light speed kick.


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## Lawliet (Mar 14, 2014)

What makes you Rayleigh was going all out too. I know that Rayleigh wanted to help the SHs as much as he can, which means there's no reason for him to not go all out. But kizaru was on a mission and faced a roger pirate, there wasn't a reason for him not to go all out either. But remember that Rayleigh wanted to keep a low profile, that's a reason for him not to go all out, not to make a fuzz and all.


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## Shanks (Mar 14, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> What makes you Rayleigh was going all out too. I know that Rayleigh wanted to help the SHs as much as he can, which means there's no reason for him to not go all out. But kizaru was on a mission and faced a roger pirate, there wasn't a reason for him not to go all out either. But remember that Rayleigh wanted to keep a low profile, that's a reason for him not to go all out, not to make a fuzz and all.



I am a little confused of to which side you're arguing for here?


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## Lawliet (Mar 14, 2014)

No one's. I don't have to be arguing for a "side" whenever I make a post.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 14, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> What makes you Rayleigh was going all out too. I know that Rayleigh wanted to help the SHs as much as he can, which means there's no reason for him to not go all out. But kizaru was on a mission and faced a roger pirate, there wasn't a reason for him not to go all out either. But remember that Rayleigh wanted to keep a low profile, that's a reason for him not to go all out, not to make a fuzz and all.



I don't think either of them were throwing out Elephant Gun Gatling Level attacks or Red Hawks left and right(relative to their moves of course). 

But when a Logia only uses there devil fruit to make a light sword hes not using a large portion of his powers, he just using his physical stats+haki.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 14, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> And, he is stronger than Marco. Marco is just a bad matchup.


What brought this up?


Stαrkiller said:


> Only because of greater stamina. In strength and speed, they were equal. If Rayleigh had been in his prime, he should've been able to decisively defeat Kizaru.


Prime, yes. Old, no. Rayleigh did great to match Kizaru in a swordfight, but that's it. While he is top tier, I don't think he can beat an Admiral anytime soon (or Shanks, like it was claimed earlier XD). Btw, DD raised a good point:


Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Sure Kizaru and Rayleigh were pretty much even.
> 
> *But from what i recall all Kizaru did was swing around his light sword, and since when was kizaru a Grand Master level swordsmen? I saw no lasers, no kicks, basically kizaru was fighting on even grounds with Rayleigh without using his devil fruit for the most part.(His sword was created via devil fruit but you guys know what i mean).
> 
> If you can trade blows with one of the Pre-skip Admirals that is very impressive but um if you don't see a shit ton of Ice, Magma, or Light beams fucking shit up. Then perhaps they were not using all of there strength against you?*


Why was Kizaru using a lightsaber instead of his full arsenal (unless he was forced to hold back just like the Admirals had to at Marineford, to avoid destroying the archipelago)?


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## trance (Mar 14, 2014)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> What brought this up?



Because it's true.



> Prime, yes. Old, no. Rayleigh did great to match Kizaru in a swordfight, but that's it. While he is top tier, I don't think he can beat an Admiral anytime soon (or Shanks, like it was claimed earlier XD).



I'm not saying he can beat an Admiral. I argued with Sabo about this. Since the Admirals are universally considered stronger than Rayleigh (even though it's not a huge amount), in a match with no externalities, they will beat Rayleigh 10 times out of 10.



> Why was Kizaru using a lightsaber instead of his full arsenal (unless he was forced to hold back just like the Admirals had to at Marineford, to avoid destroying the archipelago)?



Perhaps because everything else would've been ineffective against Rayleigh? Rayleigh has proven fast enough to intercept Kizaru before he can get a kick off and we saw what happened when he tried to ignore Rayleigh and go straight for the Straw Hats. He was a few inches away from being fatally wounded.


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## Butters (Mar 14, 2014)

> Because it's true.



Based on what?


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## trance (Mar 14, 2014)

Butters said:


> Based on what?



Why do you wanna know? :ignoramus


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## Butters (Mar 14, 2014)

Cuz it's bullshit. :ignoramus


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## trance (Mar 14, 2014)

Better offense, Haki strong enough to pressure Kizaru. Marco is just a bad matchup. 

Don't get mad Sakaz- I mean, Butters. :ignoramus


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## Butters (Mar 14, 2014)

Not really, Marco's claws are equally as lethal, and his haki allowed him to touch Kizaru's human body as well. (Though I do agree that Rayleigh has better haki)

I ain't mad brah. :ignoramus


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## trance (Mar 14, 2014)

Butters said:


> Not really, *Marco's claws* are equally as lethal, and his haki allowed him to touch Kizaru's human body as well. (Though I do agree that Rayleigh has better haki)



Dem fucking talons. I concede.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 14, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Because it's true.


Or maybe because you wanted to fanboy Rayleigh...


Stαrkiller said:


> I'm not saying he can beat an Admiral. I argued with Sabo about this. Since the Admirals are universally considered stronger than Rayleigh (even though it's not a huge amount), in a match with no externalities, they will beat Rayleigh 10 times out of 10.


Yeah, Ray's still a monster in his old age, (fought Kizaru, swam the Calm Belt, etc.) he'll put up a fight. I just wanted to know how good Rayleigh would be against Akainu. I was arguing with Lawliet about whether or not Ray would give Akainu as much trouble as Marco and Vista at the same time (which I doubt, as two of WB's best men seem tougher to handle).


Stαrkiller said:


> Perhaps because everything else would've been ineffective against Rayleigh? Rayleigh has proven fast enough to intercept Kizaru before he can get a kick off and we saw what happened when he tried to ignore Rayleigh and go straight for the Straw Hats. He was a few inches away from being fatally wounded.


So because Ray had to enough to match Kizaru, he didn't enough time to use his more powerful moves (ie. something like Yasakini no Magatama), and had to resort to CQC to avoid getting gutted?

And RG, are you ever coming back?


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## trance (Mar 14, 2014)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Or maybe because you wanted to fanboy Rayleigh...



I'm only a fanboy of one fictional character and she isn't part of One Piece.  



> Yeah, Ray's still a monster in his old age, (fought Kizaru, swam the Calm Belt, etc.) he'll put up a fight. I just wanted to know how good Rayleigh would be against Akainu. I was arguing with Lawliet about whether or not Ray would give Akainu as much trouble as Marco and Vista at the same time (which I doubt, as two of WB's best men seem tougher to handle).



Well, it wasn't really a fight between Akainu and Marco and Vista. IMO, that scene was meant to demonstrate his superiority to them. Akainu was portrayed as the most powerful force at MarineFord bar Whitebeard. This just added to that portrayal but should in no way indicate that he would be immune to *every single one of their attacks*. 

Rayleigh would give him less trouble than Marco and Vista (who, together might have a chance at winning IMO). 



> So because Ray had to enough to match Kizaru, he didn't enough time to use his more powerful moves (ie. something like Yasakini no Magatama), and had to resort to CQC to avoid getting gutted?



It's possible.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 14, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> I'm only a fanboy of one fictional character and she isn't part of One Piece.


I'm sure...btw, you start an FC for her here on NF yet?


Stαrkiller said:


> Well, it wasn't really a fight between Akainu and Marco and Vista. IMO, that scene was meant to demonstrate his superiority to them. Akainu was portrayed as the most powerful force at MarineFord bar Whitebeard. This just added to that portrayal but should in no way indicate that he would be immune to *every single one of their attacks*.
> 
> *Rayleigh would give him less trouble than Marco and Vista* (who, together might have a chance at winning IMO).


That's all I wanted to know. While Rayleigh is strong, it seems to me that taking on a guy whose regen took multiple of the most devastating attacks in the series without running out, and a swordsman who held his ground against Mihawk, both at the same time, is the greater challenge.


Stαrkiller said:


> It's possible.


How well do you think Rayleigh would have fared against attacks like Yasakini no Magatama? Would his BH be good enough to hold against a barrage of lasers?


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## trance (Mar 14, 2014)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> I'm sure...btw, you start an FC for her here on NF yet?



Nope. How do I create a fanclub, though? 



> That's all I wanted to know. While Rayleigh is strong, it seems to me that taking on a guy whose regen took multiple of the most devastating attacks in the series without running out, and a swordsman who held his ground against Mihawk, both at the same time, is the greater challenge.



Of course not. I can't think of anyone that would say Rayleigh can take both Marco and Vista.



> How well do you think Rayleigh would have fared against attacks like Yasakini no Magatama? Would his BH be good enough to hold against a barrage of lasers?



I think he could intercept Kizaru *before* he let off Yasakani no Magatama. IIRC, there's a very small window of opportunity before the actual attack goes off.


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## hurrrrrrrd (Mar 15, 2014)

Both Kizaru and Rayleigh had reasons for holding back during their encounter, those being reserving strength for the war (or trying to keep the Sabaody Archipelago intact) and wishing to keep a low profile, respectively.
Another thing you all seem to forget is that Rayleigh was running before he panted, so yeah.


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## Lawliet (Mar 15, 2014)

> Of course not. I can't think of anyone that would say Rayleigh can take both Marco and Vista.



Old Rayleigh or prime Rayleigh ?


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## trance (Mar 16, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Old Rayleigh or prime Rayleigh ?



Old Rayleigh obviously.


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## TheWiggian (Mar 16, 2014)

Prime Ray would obviously destroy Akainu.

Old Ray loses, giving Akainu high-extreme diff.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 18, 2014)

Kizaru fought Rayleigh with a sword that's produced from his DF, but Akainu doesn't have the same option; this match-up can go both ways, in my opinion. Sakazuki has good durability and such, but his finesse/skill aren't on the same level.

I'd also like to mention that Old Rayleigh - a rusty one, at that - kept up with the fast Admiral quite handily. 


Rayleigh/Shanks are good counters to Akainu, in general.

Prime Rayleigh is clearly superior to Admirals, though.


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## Masvindu (Mar 18, 2014)

I cant really say anything except that the fight would be of EXTREME difficulty.

I think either could win depending on the scenerio/mindset.

Neither would come out of the fight without some missing limbs or other serious injuries


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## Super Chief (Mar 23, 2014)

I want to say Rayleigh but Akainu is likely stronger.


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## Fiddlesticks (Mar 23, 2014)

This thread is 9 pages of you people indirectly agreeing with each other.


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