# Konan vs Kisame



## oiety (Jul 11, 2016)

Location: Bee vs Kisame
Restrictions: Konan can only use the Paper Person of God Technique after 20 minutes have passed. She is aware of this, Kisame is too.
Knowledge: Full for both.
Mindset: IC.
Starting Distance: 40 meters.


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## Bonly (Jul 11, 2016)

Kisame can't really hurt Konan once she uses her Shikigami no Mai while most of Konan cutting attacks would just be healed/dodged by Kisame. So this is basically a case of can Konan land enough explosive tags on Kisame to end him first or would Kisame be able to drain enough of her chakra/ outlast her so that he can finish her off once her jutsu runs out. I'd say it could go either way depending on how the battle plays out


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## t0xeus (Jul 11, 2016)

Konan has no way of reaching Kisame with her attacks since Samehada just absorbs the chakra controlling the papers before they get too close to Kisame.

Meanwhile Kisame can simply put Konan into the Water Dome and make her drown or use Daikodan to finish her even more quickly.

Kisame low diff.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Android (Jul 11, 2016)

Kisame wins low-midd diff .
By absorbing her chakra , the dance of Shikagami becomes useless , after that , it's GG .

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## Ishmael (Jul 11, 2016)

Hmmm....lol a thread like this was already made. But konan wins mid diff, Kisame has shown that he is one of the most resilient characters in naruto so she doesn't put him away fast or with ease. Shikigami no Mai gives her the advantage and she does what she has to do through aerial attacks, with her paper being able to turn as hard as steel. She also could make chakram like weapons and control them so that'll be nice to use against kisame. She can make shadow clones to also help her in battle, Kisame can do the same but that'll also be nice for her to use against kisame. Water base moves or whatever won't really affect her that much. So after 20 minute's if she already prepped for the technique and feels like it's needed for her to win then I Believe she'll do it. But if she has to try and prep for it during battle I think she'll throw the idea of using it out the window, and continue with whatever battle Strategy she's already come up with.  So yea I have konan winning mid diff


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## Turrin (Jul 11, 2016)

I have my doubts that Samehada can absorb chakra from Konan's paper w/o making physical contact w/ it, as outside chakra shrouds it needed to make physical contact w/ the target to absorb chakra from it.


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## Mercurial (Jul 11, 2016)

Kisame wins mid diff. Daikodan no jutsu gives him the win for sure.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 1, 2016)

Kisame is a little overrated in this battle like he can't with stand explosives the rate konan will be putting them out and he's definitely not absorbing any chakra from konan that like the worst person to try even attempting to do that on the plus side she can easily fly out of range from most of his attacks. I don't think people realize that konan is actually one of the more powerful Akatsuki members like she dose not play around.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 1, 2016)

An explosion is an explosion..... You can't take away the deadly force of an explosion and act like Kisame can just knock it off like dirt. I don't see how Kisame absorbs a shit ton of explosions spammed at him. On top of that thousands of paper sheets as hard as steel ready to pierce right through and kill him. I understand he can absorb chakra but will he be able to absorb it quick enough to nullify all of her attacks? No I dont think so. He also has no way to reach her as she can fly + turn in to her paper form and clone herself, to avoid attacks.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## wooly Eullerex (Dec 2, 2016)

the  only way kisame can beat konan is to outlast her in base, keeping her at bay  w/ suijinheki & water bullet, using clones & tunneling.
samehada will need to be his bug repellent staff so that he won't get dismembered or smothered in cqc.
if  kisame puts up the dome, konan blows him up w/  clones(that rhymes)


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## The All Unknowing (Dec 2, 2016)

Kisame has the same disadvantage here as vs Deidara. He can't do much when she takes to the sky. Even if he uses the waterdome, she's not just gonna stay stationary and get sucked into the water. She'd fly out of range. Though while inside the waterdome, there's not much Konan can do to hit him either. Unlike Deidara, she doesn't have anything like his fish explosives. So I'm not really sure how it would come to an end


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 2, 2016)

Kisame cant hurt konan when shikigami no mai is active and Also  Konan can fly around  so she can and play the range game to troll with kisames suiton  while we know for a fact  her papers are not affected by water  
Then again konan was able to overwhelm jiraiyas katon and  person with sharingan
  and don't think samehada can absorb explosions and has not shown to heal the user without absorbing chakra.

While kisames way of victory is to outlast konan until her shikigami no mai runs out.  can go either  way.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 2, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I have my doubts that Samehada can absorb chakra from Konan's paper w/o making physical contact w/ it, as outside chakra shrouds it needed to make physical contact w/ the target to absorb chakra from it.


No it didn't, it absorbed lightning without making physical contact.
[2]

Chakra shrouds are just outward chakra, like any other jutsu. If Samehada absorbed that without contact it has no issue absorbing chakra in paper when it moves toward him.

Daikodan one shots regardless.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1 | Dislike 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 2, 2016)

Not sure how Kisame wins this one. I'll admit he's much stronger than Konan, but she's just a terrible matchup for him.

His waterdome gets countered by Konan's flight, even then her paper wouldn't be affected by the water anyway

His absorption ability gets countered by her bombs, Samehada has not shown the ability to absorb direct explosions or explosions in general so I don't see how Kisame gets around that.

His 1000 sharks get countered by Dance of the Shikigami, Konan simply splits herself into paper stopping her from getting devoured by the sharks.

Lol Daikodan proves to be useless too, as my reasonings above or it simply just gets avoided with flight, turning herself into paper or paper clones regardless she has many counters to Daikodan.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 2, 2016)

Konan has no bombs without prep.

Konan avoiding Daikodan with flight is hilarious considering she got hit directly by a scrub base jiraiya oil spit without a reaction.

4 Aburame Clan members were about to waste Konan.

She can't compete with Kisame.

Edit: shit, old ass thread.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 4


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## Turrin (Dec 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> No it didn't, it absorbed lightning without making physical contact.
> [2]
> 
> Chakra shrouds are just outward chakra, like any other jutsu. If Samehada absorbed that without contact it has no issue absorbing chakra in paper when it moves toward him.


That's still Chakra being wrapped around the target. Rather than chakra being contained within the target.

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## Idiopodivny (Dec 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Konan has no bombs without prep.
> 
> Konan avoiding Daikodan with flight is hilarious considering she got hit directly by a scrub base jiraiya oil spit without a reaction.
> 
> ...



You do realize during the fight with the aburame clan she cloned herself right? which means even if she had already prepped her original body with paper bombs, she was able to clone herself and make *MORE* paper bombs. So technically, even if she cant create the seals herself during battle, all she needs is one explosion seal to make many more and I'm sure that's something shes always equipped with. 

And she was only hit because she was caught off guard by Jiraiya after using the fire technique.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Dec 2, 2016)

He can absorb chakra from inside things.

He absorbed chakra directly out of Gyuki as per its own statement.



If he can absorb chakra out of a Bijuu sealed inside of a person, what makes you think he can't absorb chakra out of paper?


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## Bonly (Dec 2, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> He can absorb chakra from inside things.
> 
> He absorbed chakra directly out of Gyuki as per its own statement.
> 
> ...



Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Gyuki give his chakra to Killer B upon which Killer B wore like a second pair of clothes in the form of a chakra shroud

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Troyse22 (Dec 2, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Gyuki give his chakra to Killer B upon which Killer B wore like a second pair of clothes in the form of a chakra shroud



"He's taken almost all of my chakra"

This is clearly stating that Kisame took chakra from Gyuki himself.

And if that doesn't work for you, are you going to suggest that 2 V2 shrouds and 3 V1 cloaks are the extent of Gyuki's chakra, despite being the only bijuu who has chakra comparable to Kuramas 

(No I know Gyuki's is not close, but it's closer to Kurama than any other Bijuu)

Reactions: Agree 1


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## theRonin (Dec 2, 2016)

Didn't jiraiya defeat her with an oil technique? Can't water make her papers useless? Just like oil did but to a lesser extent?

Kisame takes her out with water bubble tech, with full knowledge and a delay of 20 mins to her strongest tech, kisame is not losing this.


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## Blu-ray (Dec 2, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> Didn't jiraiya defeat her with an oil technique? *Can't water make her papers useless?* Just like oil did but to a lesser extent?
> 
> Kisame takes her out with water bubble tech, with full knowledge and a delay of 20 mins to her strongest tech, kisame is not losing this.



Lol no. She lives in a land of perpetual rain and her strongest technique literally triggered underneath an actual ocean, and even her normal paper techniques were fine despite her being soaked vs Tobi. The only reason oil stops her is because it's makes the paper stick together, not because it gets damp.

Whether or not that's enough to beat Kisame is something else though.


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## theRonin (Dec 2, 2016)

VHS said:


> Lol no. She lives in a land of perpetual rain and her strongest technique literally triggered underneath an actual ocean, and even her normal paper techniques were fine despite her being soaked vs Tobi. The only reason oil stops her is because it's makes the paper stick together, not because it gets damp.
> 
> Whether or not that's enough to beat Kisame is something else though.


Didn't pain stop the rain when Konan activated her paper butterfly tech? 
I'm talking about her normal paper techniques, btw.

Edit: never mind. I gotcha.


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## Blu-ray (Dec 2, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> Didn't pain stop the rain when Konan activated her paper butterfly tech?
> I'm talking about her normal paper techniques, btw.


Yes, but she fights in Ame even when it rains. Pain even had his crab douse her in foam to free her from the oil. And she did fight Obito with normal paper even when soaked. Water isn't really an issue for her.


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## theRonin (Dec 2, 2016)

VHS said:


> Yes, but she fights in Ame even when it rains. Pain even had his crab douse her in foam to free her from the oil. And she did fight Obito with normal paper even when soaked. Water isn't really an issue for her.



Gotcha. maybe pain stopped the rain to make the search go quickly?


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## Bonly (Dec 2, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> "He's taken almost all of my chakra"
> 
> This is clearly stating that Kisame took chakra from Gyuki himself.



Again did he or did he not just give his chakra to B to use?



> And if that doesn't work for you, are you going to suggest that 2 V2 shrouds and 3 V1 cloaks are the extent of Gyuki's chakra, despite being the only bijuu who has chakra comparable to Kuramas
> 
> (No I know Gyuki's is not close, but it's closer to Kurama than any other Bijuu)



Gykui also had to constant supply chakra to B while in the waterdome since it absorbs chakra along with the sheer volume of chakra he's pumping out

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## DavyChan (Dec 2, 2016)

Kisame's very overrated. Konan is powerscaled from being Pain's right hand chick and being a later on in the series revealed akatsuki member. She was fighting on par w/ Jaraiya, she nearly killed Obito. What else is there to say. I don't even have to mention the bad matchup thing.

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## Saru (Dec 2, 2016)

I'm not really seeing how Kisame wins this. He does have rather large chakra reserves, but Konan does as well if her Paper Person of God Technique is anything to go by. I find it unlikely that Kisame will be able to keep all of Konan's paper at bay with Suiton, whereas Kisame's CQC options are frankly inferior to Konan with her paper.

As for Samehada absorbing the chakra from Konan's paper, even it does, I doubt it'll be able to absorb chakra from every single projectile launched at Kisame at once, and it's not like Kisame can't be damaged by physical attacks while Samehada's in his hand, lol. Rock Lee was able to disarm Kisame's 30% clone with a kick without having the life sucked out of him, so I don't see why Konan's paper barrage would have trouble accomplishing the same thing or dealing damage.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 2, 2016)

Idiopodivny said:


> You do realize during the fight with the aburame clan she cloned herself right? which means even if she had already prepped her original body with paper bombs, she was able to clone herself and make *MORE* paper bombs. So technically, even if she cant create the seals herself during battle, all she needs is one explosion seal to make many more and I'm sure that's something shes always equipped with.
> 
> And she was only hit because she was caught off guard by Jiraiya after using the fire technique.


She didnt use paper bombs against the aburame

paper bombs cant be cloned, you cant clone fuinjutsu

the fire technique was used well before jiraiya was attacked a second time and flipped then shot the oil

they legit had a convo in between, and the rain shinobi had time to talk to her and be told to get away, which he did

shes slow as shit, move on


Turrin said:


> That's still Chakra being wrapped around the target. Rather than chakra being contained within the target.


Irrelevant, he already absorbed lightning without physical contact and was absorbing suigetsu's chakra without physical contact

you're wrong, move on

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## Icegaze (Dec 2, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Again did he or did he not just give his chakra to B to use?
> 
> 
> 
> Gykui also had to constant supply chakra to B while in the waterdome since it absorbs chakra along with the sheer volume of chakra he's pumping out



the dome itself does not absorb chakra. this was never stated


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 2, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> Didn't pain stop the rain when Konan activated her paper butterfly tech?
> I'm talking about her normal paper techniques, btw.
> 
> Edit: never mind. I gotcha.



When she was younger, she had not perfected her paper technique yet so it was still weak against water. Which is why when you see her throw her paper kunai while training with jiraiya, the water stops it. Later as an adult though, water showed no effect on her paper for some reason and it is unknown why.


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> She didnt use paper bombs against the aburame
> 
> paper bombs cant be cloned, you cant clone fuinjutsu
> 
> ...



Yes she did, she used clones and when they attacked her she made them explode? Did you even see the episode?

If paper bombs can't be cloned.... What is Tobiramas Mutually Multiplying Explosive Tags? Exactly.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> She didnt use paper bombs against the aburame
> 
> paper bombs cant be cloned, you cant clone fuinjutsu
> 
> ...



He's wrong ? First off she clearly did use paper bombs against the aburame clan like did you not see the manga or episode? yes you can clone paper bombs, now im not completely sure if konan can do this its just a guess but she possibly could do something like Tobirama's multiplying paper bomb jutsu. And if you really think Konan was really trying to kill jiraiya your funny she obviously was hesitant of even attacking him and about the oil , jiraiya was her teacher and taught konan all the basics and knew what her weaknesses were. And slow do you have anything to support this?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 2, 2016)

Idiopodivny said:


> Yes she did, she used clones and when they attacked her she made them explode? Did you even see the episode?
> 
> If paper bombs can't be cloned.... What is Tobiramas Mutually Multiplying Explosive Tags? Exactly.



Lmao i was writing this when you replied, you beat me to it


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> She didnt use paper bombs against the aburame
> 
> paper bombs cant be cloned, you cant clone fuinjutsu
> 
> ...



Regular Explosive Tags


Vs Konans Paper Tags 


If you look you can see there is a difference in the design. Thats because Konan makes her OWN sheets. Its from her own paper thats she creates by cloning. 

And all her paper does not just come from her body. If that was the case she wouldn't have a body because of all the paper shes already used.

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## Serene Grace (Dec 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Konan has no bombs without prep.


Prep is easily attainable for her, as she can simply evade Kisame from the air or with dance of the shikigeki.



DaVizWiz said:


> Konan avoiding Daikodan with flight is hilarious considering she got hit directly by a scrub base Jiraiya oil spit without a reaction.


He used it while she was attacking, not sure how that means she's slow. By that same logic, if Goku fires a Kamehameha at someone and, they dodge it then they hit him while he's still blasting does that mean he's slow? Sounds kind of absurd.



DaVizWiz said:


> 4 Aburame Clan members were about to waste Konan.
> 
> She can't compete with Kisame.



??? 90% was off panel, so it's kind of baseless to suggest that they were about to "waste her", Konan could have just retreated on her own will, there wasn't much indication that she left because they were beating her, actually there were two points that indicated otherwise:

1. Shino, said it was "suspicious" that they retreated, most likely indicating that they weren't getting much ground for Konan to just leave.
2. Since Pain can talk through all paths, he probably told Konan what was going down and they needed to retreat

Also, they did have a hard counter to her abilities due to their Kikaichu(something Kisame doesn't have) so I don't know what basis you have to suggest Kisame would win simply off of that.

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## DaVizWiz (Dec 2, 2016)

Idiopodivny said:


> Yes she did, she used clones and when they attacked her she made them explode? Did you even see the episode?
> 
> If paper bombs can't be cloned.... What is Tobiramas Mutually Multiplying Explosive Tags? Exactly.


Are you referring to the anime?

Only manga is canon.

That explosive technique is Tobirama's signature and is a named, documented special bukijutsu technique.

Unless you show me a panel of Konan creating paper bombs out of thin air you have no argument here.

Exploding tags don't have to have the same seal design, just because they look different doesn't mean Konan created them herself.

Sasuke & Hanzo's exploding tags have different designs:

he has the reflexes to wait until the last second and then escape a sharingan users clutches, 

Flying Thunder God has different seal design between the two users - when it is the same exact technique.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 2, 2016)

So how do you explain her 600 billion explosive tags that was prepared in about a month ,If she can't possibly multiply it?


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 2, 2016)

She had the 6th most powerful ninja village and the combination of it's economic power and any of the Akatsuki's wealth held within Amekagure backing her.

Konan knew Obito had to go down at all costs, there's no doubt she spent millions and had her entire shinobi force, with perhaps contract ninja weaponsmiths working with her to prepare that assault.

*To presume she can make and copy paper bombs *when we have Obito's reaction, a man who worked with her and Nagato for years and knew them and their techniques rather well just as Konan knew the limits and mechanics of his technique - something Minato couldn't even discern while battling him, of her having them mixed in as utterly dumbfounded and the fact she did not use them against the Aburame or definitely not Jiraiya* is absurd quite frankly.*

Everything points to her inability to create pre-sealed explosions out of thin air. And there isn't a lick of evidence even suggesting she can let alone proving it.

The only time she is shown using paper bombs was with that multi month preparation time, after she had run multiple simulations on a planned and practiced battle. It's blatantly obvious she had the paper bombs prepped accordingly, just as virtually every other shinobi who has used paper bombs must also have done - to acquire them from their armory and equip them before a mission.

All I need do is ask the name of the technique that Konan uses to create and/or copy exploding paper, or a the chapter and page in the manga where Konan is featured creating or copying exploding paper - to counter all of your assertions. None of you have evidence, you lose by default.

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## Idiopodivny (Dec 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> She had the 6th most powerful ninja village and the combination of it's economic power and any of the Akatsuki's wealth held within Amekagure backing her.
> 
> Konan knew Obito had to go down at all costs, there's no doubt she spent millions and had her entire shinobi force, with perhaps contract ninja weaponsmiths working with her to prepare that assault.
> 
> ...



Those are her sheets LOL the only thing thats is different are that some of them are paper bombs. 600 Billion at that? Unless you know the technique that creates paper bombs, you shouldn't be talking. Theres no evidence to support she can't create paper bombs, or anyone else for that matter. Its just paper with a seal and chakra infused into it. If paper is her specialty.... Why would she need a tea, to male paper for her? That doesent make sense. It doesn't say in the manga or databook that Konan had her village prep paper Bombs for her. It said KONAN. Stop trying to take the credit away from her and act like you know what happened. If she can clone her regular paper.... What makes you think she cant clone her paper with a seal on it?? It's not out of thin air. Otherwise we are saying any technique that involves cloning creates stuff out of thin air.

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## Bonly (Dec 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> the dome itself does not absorb chakra. this was never stated

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## UchihaX28 (Dec 2, 2016)

@DaVizWiz

Even so, she generated an explosion that nearly blew off Obito's Zetsu Arm despite the fact that Obito cushioned the explosion through Kamui. That explosion would be many times more deadly when initiated underwater which is unfortunately devastating for Kisame given that he commonly uses Suiton and Konan's flexible body would instigate Kisame's deluge of Suiton. In most cases, this would be catastrophic, but not for Konan who can successfully escape Kisame's pursuit and launch dozens of explosives which I think it's safe to say given how she prepped enough explosives to deal with Obito in that aforementioned example.

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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> She had the 6th most powerful ninja village and the combination of it's economic power and any of the Akatsuki's wealth held within Amekagure backing her.
> 
> Konan knew Obito had to go down at all costs, there's no doubt she spent millions and had her entire shinobi force, with perhaps contract ninja weaponsmiths working with her to prepare that assault.
> 
> ...



The village helping her prep paper bombs? I'm sorry but this comment made my day like really lmao she clearly did it by herself , and you talk about us not getting the evidence like in what way or form did you get that? What next is a village gonna help carry a giant toad to a battle


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## Icegaze (Dec 3, 2016)

Bonly said:


>



Water shark dance is him putting you in a bubble and draining your Chakra himself 

For guidance read DB it clarifies the obvious 

The dome itself is just giant explosive water wave

He is dancing in the Bubble


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## Bonly (Dec 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Water shark dance is him putting you in a bubble and draining your Chakra himself
> 
> For guidance read DB it clarifies the obvious
> 
> ...



Kisame said "*IT*" shaves away chakra not "I shave away chakra" so it seems like he's referring to the dome itself to me. I haven't seen the translated page of it so if you have or know where one is at then please post it otherwise I'll stick with the manga until it's translated.


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## Icegaze (Dec 3, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Kisame said "*IT*" shaves away chakra not "I shave away chakra" so it seems like he's referring to the dome itself to me. I haven't seen the translated page of it so if you have or know where one is at then please post it otherwise I'll stick with the manga until it's translated.



IT referring to the jutsu water shark dance which is HIM physically draining your chakra in an inescapable bubble 

you can stick to what you like, i am simply explaining the obvious here. 

so the bubble shaves chakra but then he chases you and does what shave your chakra himself? why on earth would he still need to do that. he can simply safely watch you loose chakra and drown from afar 

again try the DB

Reactions: Agree 2


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> IT referring to the jutsu water shark dance which is HIM physically draining your chakra in an inescapable bubble
> 
> you can stick to what you like, i am simply explaining the obvious here.
> 
> ...


 
 C sensed the Hachibi's chakra being mixed within the dome, so clearly the dome is capable of interacting with chakra in some way, shape, or form. Given Kisame's statement, there's no reason why it shouldn't be able to. After all, Daikodan coincidentally accomplishes the same thing.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 3, 2016)

Idiopodivny said:


> Those are her sheets LOL the only thing thats is different are that some of them are paper bombs. 600 Billion at that? Unless you know the technique that creates paper bombs, you shouldn't be talking. Theres no evidence to support she can't create paper bombs, or anyone else for that matter. Its just paper with a seal and chakra infused into it. If paper is her specialty.... Why would she need a tea, to male paper for her? That doesent make sense. It doesn't say in the manga or databook that Konan had her village prep paper Bombs for her. It said KONAN. Stop trying to take the credit away from her and act like you know what happened. If she can clone her regular paper.... What makes you think she cant clone her paper with a seal on it?? It's not out of thin air. Otherwise we are saying any technique that involves cloning creates stuff out of thin air.


Because there's no evidence she can't create the bombs... she can create them? 

All I'm reading in the paragraph is your false belief backed by nothing.

Obito's reaction when he saw paper bombs mixed into her sheets implies it was prepped ahead of time, and not part of her active arsenal. He knows all about her arsenal, because she's been part of his organization for years, and he was the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan, so he's been surveying them well before Konan was a powerful shinobi.

Months of prep and leader of a legit ninja village.. and it's absurd to proclaim she got help from it?

I'm not fully understanding your argument here.

"She can clone paper, so she can clone seals"

What in the fuck kind of logic is that? Absolutely unsubstantiated nonsense.



> The village helping her prep paper bombs? I'm sorry but this comment made my day like really lmao she clearly did it by herself , and you talk about us not getting the evidence like in what way or form did you get that? What next is a village gonna help carry a giant toad to a battle



*-snip-*

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## Icegaze (Dec 3, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> C sensed the Hachibi's chakra being mixed within the dome, so clearly the dome is capable of interacting with chakra in some way, shape, or form. Given Kisame's statement, there's no reason why it shouldn't be able to. After all, Daikodan coincidentally accomplishes the same thing.



He could sense hachibi chakra mixed with the dome since kisame stole hachibi chakra previously then spat out the dome 

Think that's an unnecessary reach to assume the dome drains chakra 

The Shark dancing drains the chAkra 

It's described in DB in simple words


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 3, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Because there's no evidence she can't create the bombs... she can create them?
> 
> All I'm reading in the paragraph is your false belief backed by nothing.
> 
> ...



Experience? You really think I care for XP on this ,nope anyways konan even stated SHE prepared the paper bombs in the image above and their is more proof that she did it herself then anything else theirs not a single thing to back your statement saying that the village helped her create 600 billion paper bombs. This technique was also categorised in ninjustu and bukijustu and clearly stated that konan was the user. About Obito's reaction, it was probably because he thought it was gonna be easy to kill her and not thinking that he might need to use his izanagi

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Jad (Dec 3, 2016)

Kisame destroys her. Not buying he can't absorb her Chakra.

Reactions: Disagree 3


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> He could sense hachibi chakra mixed with the dome since kisame stole hachibi chakra previously then spat out the dome
> 
> Think that's an unnecessary reach to assume the dome drains chakra
> 
> ...



 There was no unnecessary reach, just basic logic.


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 3, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Because there's no evidence she can't create the bombs... she can create them?
> 
> All I'm reading in the paragraph is your false belief backed by nothing.
> 
> ...



Okay the bombs were prepared but you have to understand, the paper that she transforms into is her paper. She always has bombs mixed in with her paper so I didnt see why bombs are a big issue for her here. Especially if she was able to waste 600 Billion on Obito. If shes going into a fight, shes gonna have bombs no matter what. And just because she didn't create them in the moment of the fight didnt mean she didn't create them. She obviously wanted to sneak attack him.


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## Icegaze (Dec 3, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> There was no unnecessary reach, just basic logic.



Try read DB
Then get back to me


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Try read DB
> Then get back to me



 How would it refute anything I said?


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## Icegaze (Dec 3, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> How would it refute anything I said?



You haven't read it 
It clearly states the mechanics behind the jutsu 
The dome doesn't absorb chakra


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> You haven't read it
> It clearly states the mechanics behind the jutsu
> The dome doesn't absorb chakra



 And? C's statement illustrated that Bee's chakra was forcibly drawn out by the Waterdome which was why it was mixed in with the entire dome. How did that happen if the Waterdome couldn't absorb Bee's chakra?


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## Icegaze (Dec 3, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> And? C's statement illustrated that Bee's chakra was forcibly drawn out by the Waterdome which was why it was mixed in with the entire dome. How did that happen if the Waterdome couldn't absorb Bee's chakra?




C statement simply implies the obvious kisame had stolen bee chakra before forming the dome 
Said dome was created using bee stolen chakra of course C Would sense bee chakra mixed within the dome

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> C statement simply implies the obvious kisame had stolen bee chakra before forming the dome
> Said dome was created using bee stolen chakra of course C Would sense bee chakra mixed within the dome



That chakra is stated to be converted to Kisame's stamina, so again, how did the Waterdome not interact with Bee's chakra even though Darui concluded that it was because Bee's chakra was being absorbed?

using ST


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## wooly Eullerex (Dec 3, 2016)

bcuz bree & gyuuki were still present?


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 3, 2016)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> bcuz bree & gyuuki were still present?



What're you talking about? Them being present wouldn't have resulted in their chakra interacting with something that's not a sentient being. Clearly, the dome has some sort of properties or else it wouldn't make sense.


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## wooly Eullerex (Dec 3, 2016)

weren't they interacting w/ kisame, who was also present?


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 3, 2016)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> weren't they interacting w/ kisame, who was also present?



 That wouldn't cause their chakra to expand throughout the entire dome.


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## wooly Eullerex (Dec 3, 2016)

oh, well that could be the result of kisames attacks, as well as the suid ink dissolution within during the time Cee was gathering sensory data. at some point the (and familiar signature)chakra is converted to stamina or else he couldn't sense


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 3, 2016)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> oh, well that could be the result of kisames attacks, as well as the suid ink dissolution within during the time Cee was gathering sensory data. at some point the (and familiar signature)chakra is converted to stamina or else he couldn't sense



 Kisame's attacks wouldn't cause that to happen and Darui's statement in regards to Kisame hastily absorbing Bee's chakra tells us that the chakra was diffused throughout the dome because of chakra absorption. Kisame's absorption wouldn't accomplish that which tells us that it was a result of the Dome possessing these properties as well.


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## Icegaze (Dec 4, 2016)

Lol ok this argument got boring 
Dome absorbs chakra but kisame decides to go do that himself which causes samehada to betray him yh sure makes sense


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## Veracity (Dec 4, 2016)

Im pretty sure Waterdome doesn't absorb chakra. If that was the case then Kisame wouldn't have to forcibly tackle Bee to absorb his chakra. Unless I'm missing something?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Dec 4, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Im pretty sure Waterdome doesn't absorb chakra. If that was the case then Kisame wouldn't have to forcibly tackle Bee to absorb his chakra. Unless I'm missing something?



Couldn't it be a case that's he's gonna to put the nail in the coffin by going for a double drain? For example Tsunade already has monster strength and doesn't need to use chakra but she still uses chakra to help enhance her strength even further, same principle more or less


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## Veracity (Dec 4, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Couldn't it be a case that's he's gonna to put the nail in the coffin by going for a double drain? For example Tsunade already has monster strength and doesn't need to use chakra but she still uses chakra to help enhance her strength even further, same principle more or less


Not sure if you were arguing against Waterdome absorbing chakra or rather the reasoning I used to conclude such.

It's honestly not stated anywhere in the Databook that it absorbs chakra nor did his Waterdome ever absorb chakra until Kisame tackled killer Bee, so there really is zero actual feats to imply Waterdome absorbs Chakra; aside from a few misconstrued statements.


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## Bonly (Dec 4, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Not sure if you were arguing against Waterdome absorbing chakra or rather the reasoning I used to conclude such.
> 
> It's honestly not stated anywhere in the Databook that it absorbs chakra nor did his Waterdome ever absorb chakra until Kisame tackled killer Bee, so there really is zero actual feats to imply Waterdome absorbs Chakra; aside from a few misconstrued statements.



It was your reasoning

Could you post the DB page for the waterdome?


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## t0xeus (Dec 4, 2016)

Personally I doubt waterdome absorbs passively chakra from the enemies in it, otherwise I would rank it his strongest technique rather than Daikodan.

It was never shown, nor implied in databook and there are possible reasons why C's statement could have been meant differently as others already said above.


Bonly said:


> It was your reasoning
> 
> Could you post the DB page for the waterdome?


Here



> *A chakra eating dance! A giant prison of water amasses on the ground!*
> 
> "Suiton Dai Bakusuishouha" covers the environment surrounding the enemy in one body of water, a gigantic water prison is created. The oppoent is shut away underwater, where breath is impossible, except for those who possesses the ninja sword Samehada and the ability to fuse with it to become a half-merman. The prey's movements are supplemented and taken away (I think, tough one). Samehada is aligned with ones body, than the opponents chakra and life are shaved away, the person is cornered by suffocation. Kisame's strong point is capturing someone alive with this Jutsu.
> 
> With Kisame in the middle, the water prison's movement is connected to his. To slip out of the large prison is not possible, liberated from the ground Kisame's movements become faster.

Reactions: Like 3


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 4, 2016)

The only jutsu that allows kisame to absorb chakra is the Great Shark Bullet Technique not the water dome but idk why he would try doing that while konan can just fly out of range, but all I know is that this will be a pretty long fight because kisame haves a crap load of chakra and konan basically haves intangibility and their both very experienced and smart so it all comes down to who can finish the job quicker and to top it off konan can use the paper person of God technique at the 20 min mark and this fight will definitely go toward that so really with all that said konan takes this and with her having her technique is just overkill because their is very few people in the naurto universe that can somehow escape that and kisame is definitely not of them.


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## Icegaze (Dec 4, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Personally I doubt waterdome absorbs passively chakra from the enemies in it, otherwise I would rank it his strongest technique rather than Daikodan.
> 
> It was never shown, nor implied in databook and there are possible reasons why C's statement could have been meant differently as others already said above.
> 
> Here



Thanks 
For me it's quite obvious it doesn't passively otherwise bee would have said something 

He mentioned the bubble moving with kisame 

Mentioned the fact that kisame can breathe underwater but somehow wouldn't mention he is simply loosing chakra by being submerged in water 

Lol honestly the lengths people in DB take their straw grasping to

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (Dec 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Thanks
> For me it's quite obvious it doesn't passively otherwise bee would have said something
> 
> He mentioned the bubble moving with kisame
> ...


Ye I'd get trying to argue about properties of a technique based on a databook entry or the user saying something (like Kisame's statement that Daikodan is just as strong as its opposing jutsu), 
but drawing a conclusion from a statement from a completely unrelated party that was not even present in the fight is truly the definition of grasping at straws.


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 4, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Konan has no bombs without prep.
> 
> Konan avoiding Daikodan with flight is hilarious considering she got hit directly by a scrub base jiraiya oil spit without a reaction.
> 
> ...



And you're acting as if having prep is a bad thing? Theres nothing wrong with having prep. If that helps you have more powerful jutsu, so be it. It doesent take away from her power, it only makes her more badass. Even Deidara has to have prep with his clay. And Sasori is litteraly a living prepped doll. After every fight he has to prep them up again. Anyways like I'm saying, most characters are at least somewhat prepared for a fight. Rarely is a fight ever totally a random encounter.


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## t0xeus (Dec 4, 2016)

Idiopodivny said:


> And you're acting as if having prep is a bad thing? Theres nothing wrong with having prep. If that helps you have more powerful jutsu, so be it. It doesent take away from her power, it only makes her more badass. Even Deidara has to have prep with his clay. And Sasori is litteraly a living prepped doll. After every fight he has to prep them up again. Anyways like I'm saying, most characters are at least somewhat prepared for a fight. Rarely is a fight ever totally a random encounter.


Don't think he is acting as if anything, he is just stating that Konan has no bombs without prep so no way of injuring Kisame.

Considering she has no answer to his techniques, she loses.

Seems like you're the one who is concerned about her prep the most here tbh.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 4, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Don't think he is acting as if anything, he is just stating that Konan has no bombs without prep so no way of injuring Kisame.
> 
> Considering she has no answer to his techniques, she loses.
> 
> Seems like you're the one who is concerned about her prep the most here tbh.



She still will carry X amount of bombs just like anyone else if she uses that as her weapon often why wouldn't she bring any with her. And if we are using the anime she clearly haves a lot when she made dozens of paper bomb clones,  and I still believe she can multiply them because otherwise how can she prep 600 billion paper bombs (by herself)in a month. And the origami paper she uses in battle is clearly the same she uses for her paper bombs she can even manipulate where the paper bombs go as she fights with obito stopping him from escaping


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## t0xeus (Dec 4, 2016)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> otherwise how can she prep 600 billion paper bombs (by herself)in a month.


Sometimes there are illogical things in the manga like ninjas jumping 20m high.



> And the origami paper she uses in battle is clearly the same she uses for her paper bombs she can even manipulate where the paper bombs go as she fights with obito stopping him from escaping


Why didn't she use it against Jiraiya then?


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 4, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Sometimes there are illogical things in the manga like ninjas jumping 20m high.
> 
> 
> Why didn't she use it against Jiraiya then?



She didn't want to kill jiraiya , she was forced to basically do everything nagato said and you could even tell by her expression that she was not even trying


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## t0xeus (Dec 4, 2016)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> She didn't want to kill jiraiya , she was forced to basically do everything nagato said and you could even tell by her expression that she was not even trying


lol

She was never shown with explosive tags except in filler or in a battle she has been preparing for, every other instance of her technique in manga contains no explosive tags at all, not even a mention of them.
So thread with Konan is her form without explosive tags unless specified.


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 4, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Don't think he is acting as if anything, he is just stating that Konan has no bombs without prep so no way of injuring Kisame.
> 
> Considering she has no answer to his techniques, she loses.
> 
> Seems like you're the one who is concerned about her prep the most here tbh.


Okay but how do you know she wouldn't have bombs on her? Theres no way of telling by just looking at her upfront. 

When people post a fight on the battledome using Garra. They dont mention him needing clay prep because its part of his arsenal. 

Just like Paper bombs are part of Konans arsenal and waht makes her useful to the akatsuki.


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## t0xeus (Dec 4, 2016)

Idiopodivny said:


> Okay but how do you know she wouldn't have bombs on her? Theres no way of telling by just looking at her upfront.


I know it because Kishimoto never mentioned it nor did Konan show that ability except prep fights.



> When people post a fight on the battledome using Garra. They dont mention him needing clay prep because its part of his arsenal.


You meant Deidara, right? In that case, his fighting potential without clay prep is literally zero, so people assume OP means prepared Deidara instinctively. Although it would be more correct to always write prepared Deidara really.

But IIRC Deidara always had some clay with him, just when he wanted to use C3 or C4 he had to have some clay prepared.



> Just like Paper bombs are part of Konans arsenal and waht makes her useful to the akatsuki.


Not true, Konan was in the original Akatsuki with Yahiko&Nagato, so it's likely she would be in Akatsuki even if she had literally 0 jutsus. She was never portrayed as a strong member, but more like Nagato's caretaker. That is why her feats against Obito are so impressive.


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 4, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> I know it because Kishimoto never mentioned it nor did Konan show that ability except prep fights.
> 
> 
> You meant Deidara, right? In that case, his fighting potential without clay prep is literally zero, so people assume OP means prepared Deidara instinctively. Although it would be more correct to always write prepared Deidara really.
> ...



I'm just saying, if she really wanted to. She could prep a whole bunch of paper bombs and hide them within her regular paper. The the fact that she can manipulate the paper with her chakra to make it attach itself to the enemy is very useful and its what would make her S Rank worthy.

So whenever you make these list about whose the strongest in the Akatsuki, include Konan with prep, because its a valid version of her.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Lol ok this argument got boring
> Dome absorbs chakra but kisame decides to go do that himself which causes samehada to betray him yh sure makes sense



Logical explanation is that Kisame gains access to that chakra and physical contact enables it to be absorbed at a faster rate. I've proven the dome absorbs chakra, so stop grabbing straws and refute my argument directly. If not, at least have the decency to concede instead of choosing to retort with straws.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 4, 2016)

Even without bombs she's powerful. Like she can make her paper as hard as steel which is crazy if you think about it , thousands of sheets of paper coming at you without even breaking a sweat.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 4, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Logical explanation is that Kisame gains access to that chakra and physical contact enables it to be absorbed at a faster rate. I've proven the dome absorbs chakra, so stop grabbing straws and refute my argument directly. If not, at least have the decency to concede instead of choosing to retort with straws.



The dome dosent absorb chakra it's not even categorized in the wiki and theirs no evidence other then a slight statement that proves that it does.


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## Bonly (Dec 4, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Here



Thanks


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 4, 2016)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> The dome dosent absorb chakra it's not even categorized in the wiki and theirs no evidence other then a slight statement that proves that it does.



 It's deliberately stated that it does.

 I don't care what the wiki states because it's common sense that wikis aren't credible sources. The manga is however, and it does suggest that the dome steals chakra.

 "Slight statement," is a huge understatement when it played an integral role in moving the plot forward.


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## Saru (Dec 4, 2016)

I'm pretty sure the water dome doesn't passively absorb chakra. Kisame absorbing chakra through Samehada is part of the Water Prison Shark Dance, hence why he said the technique absorbs chakra. If chakra was being absorbed, Ponta and Killer B probably would have commented on it.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Icegaze (Dec 4, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Logical explanation is that Kisame gains access to that chakra and physical contact enables it to be absorbed at a faster rate. I've proven the dome absorbs chakra, so stop grabbing straws and refute my argument directly. If not, at least have the decency to concede instead of choosing to retort with straws.



 
Sure ignores DB and common sense 
DOme absorbs chakra yet neither kisame nor bee point that out


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 4, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> It's deliberately stated that it does.
> 
> I don't care what the wiki states because it's common sense that wikis aren't credible sources. The manga is however, and it does suggest that the dome steals chakra.
> 
> "Slight statement," is a huge understatement when it played an integral role in moving the plot forward.



Key word "suggest" the dome dosent absorb chakra kisame haves another jutsu for that.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Sure ignores DB and common sense
> DOme absorbs chakra yet neither kisame nor bee point that out



 Concession accepted.

 We have a direct statement that the dome did draw out the Hachibi's chakra which is why C registered his location. Darui then adds context by stating that Kisame shouldn't have hastily absorbed Bee's chakra.

 So here you are, deliberately ignoring the manga and resorting to stupid arguments like, "lmao, ignoring DB," when I never disregarded the Databook in the first place. Now then, stop being a hypocrite and refute my arguments directly instead of playing the dummy while ignorantly contradicting the manga.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 4, 2016)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Key word "suggest" the dome dosent absorb chakra kisame haves another jutsu for that.



So basically, things have to be explicitly stated or we disregard implications entirely.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 4, 2016)

Idk why your really on top of this dome like kisame can use another technique that absorbs chakra


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 4, 2016)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Idk why your really on top of this dome like kisame can use another technique that absorbs chakra



 I think Konan wins. Doesn't mean I'm going to be dishonest and downplay Kisame's Waterdome.


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## Icelerate (Dec 5, 2016)

Konan obviously creates paper bombs the same way she can create paper on a whim. She needs prep for a huge quantity of them and the only way she can prep 600 billion paper tag bombs is if she can mass produce them just like expendable paper.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 5, 2016)

Idiopodivny said:


> Okay the bombs were prepared but you have to understand, the paper that she transforms into is her paper. She always has bombs mixed in with her paper so I didnt see why bombs are a big issue for her here. Especially if she was able to waste 600 Billion on Obito. If shes going into a fight, shes gonna have bombs no matter what. And just because she didn't create them in the moment of the fight didnt mean she didn't create them. She obviously wanted to sneak attack him.


She does not always have bombs mixed in, which is why Obito reacted in this manner:


Obito knew Konan's abilities well, he was taken aback when there were explosive tags "mixed" with her paper, which means it is not something she did often, or at all.

-She didn't use them against Jiraiya, a legendary Sannin
-She didn't use them against Aburame, because Shino would be dead right now
-The creation of explosive tags aren't noted as part of her arsenal in the databook nor have we ever seen her create them in the manga, or her/anyone mention that she can create them in the manga

She obviously prepped the bomb tags and mixed them with her paper before the battle with Obito, to deliberely counter the mechanics of his Kamui, a plan which she simulated multiple times. Prepping doesn't mean she created them, it means she acquired the explosive tags and then mixed them into her paper.

Reactions: Disagree 4


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## Icelerate (Dec 5, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> She does not always have bombs mixed in, which is why Obito reacted in this manner:
> 
> 
> Obito knew Konan's abilities well, he was taken aback when there were explosive tags "mixed" with her paper.
> ...


Obito was simply shocked because he realized Konan was going to blow him up while he was absorbing her. There is no reason to believe he was shocked because she's usually not capable of using paper tags. 

Konan not using them in a brief skirmish against Jiraiya  or Aburame clan doesn't mean she can't use it. Sakura didn't use Byakogou against Shin, does that mean she can no longer use it? 3rd Raikage never used black lightning, does that mean he can't use it? 

Konan can manipulate paper tag bombs just like her own paper she produces so she obviously produced them much like she produces ordinary paper considering there is no proof that Konan can manipulate paper that she didn't produce herself. 

The databook says Konan can use the paper she creates for a variety of tasks () so it not directly referencing paper tag bombs in the 3rd databook when they weren't used is irrelevant. The 4th databook hasn't been fully translated and even if it doesn't mention Konan's ability to use paper tag bombs, that's irrelevant considering the manga shows her do so just fine.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 5, 2016)

Icelerate said:


> Obito was simply shocked because he realized Konan was going to blow him up while he was absorbing her. There is no reason to believe he was shocked because she's usually not capable of using paper tags.
> 
> Konan not using them in a brief skirmish against Jiraiya  or Aburame clan doesn't mean she can't use it. Sakura didn't use Byakogou against Shin, does that mean she can no longer use it? 3rd Raikage never used black lightning, does that mean he can't use it?
> 
> ...


No, he was shocked because he didn't anticipate her doing it- which means she can't do it ordinarily, ergo with prep she did it. He was also shocked she was going to blow him up, but had he anticipated that as a possibility, he wouldn't have absorbed the paper into his eye. 

Difference being Sakura proved she could use Byakugo in the war. Difference being Darui stated the 3rd Raikage taught him black lightning, ergo proven that he can use it. These are terrible examples because it's been proven they can do them.

When a person has never shown the ability to do something, especially something as ridiculous as copying sealed explosions indefinitely, it should be presumed they cannot.

Furthermore, when there's a situation where she should have used the proposed ability (Jiraiya), and didn't, the truth leans toward not having the ability than having it. When a close ally for years (Obito) is surprised you're using explosive tags after you've had months of prep and simulated the battle multiple times, the truth leans toward not having the ability without prep.

No one stated she was manipulating paper that she didn't create, the explosions could have been sealed onto paper she created prior to the battle, where she had months of prep and an entire shinobi village under her boot.

Nothing you've provided proves Konan can create explosive tags out of thin air, and the examples I've provided, especially the situation she used them in where she had extreme prep and needed the tags to counter Obito's Kamui directly, lean the neutral argument well in my favor.


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## Icelerate (Dec 5, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, he was shocked because he didn't anticipate her doing it- which means she can't do it ordinarily, ergo with prep she did it.


Or he was shocked because he didn't expect her to do so at that moment. 


> Difference being Sakura proved she could use Byakugo in the war. Difference being Darui stated the 3rd Raikage taught him black lightning, ergo proven that he can use it. These are terrible examples.


I was just countering your logic that just because she didn't use it in a particular fight, she can't use paper tag bombs. 


> When a person has never shown the ability to do something, especially something as ridiculous as copying sealed explosions indefinitely, it should be presumed they cannot.


What do you mean by copying sealed explosions indefinitely? Sai has been shown to draw paper tags that explode with ink so it is not a ridiculous ability since Konan actually creates specialized paper unlike Sai.


> No one stated she was manipulating paper that she didn't create, the explosions could have been sealed onto paper she created prior to the battle, where she had months of prep and an entire shinobi village under her boot.


Konan is the one who initiates the explosion with her own chakra, if they were sealed by others, she wouldn't be able to control the explosions, hence the ten minute trap would fail. If she can seal explosions into paper herself, it's an effortless ability or else she'd never have gotten 600 billion paper tags. I've calculated that Konan would had to have been able to produce 1000 paper tag bombs a second under the assumption she kept on producing them nonstop since she was 15 years old. This isn't like ordinary paper tag bomb seals which is a much slower process.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 5, 2016)

> Or he was shocked because he didn't expect her to do so at that moment.


Why would he be shocked if she could do it ordinarily?

He wasn't shocked when she threw a ton of paper at him, which he knows she can do ordinarily.



> I was just countering your logic that just because she didn't use it in a particular fight, she can't use paper tag bombs.


You failed to counter it.



> What do you mean by copying sealed explosions indefinitely? Sai has been shown to draw paper tags that explode with ink so it is not a ridiculous ability since Konan actually creates specialized paper unlike Sai.


No he has not. He was prepped accordingly for the ambush squad and the assassination mission on Sasuke.



> Konan is the one who initiates the explosion with her own chakra, if they were sealed by others, she wouldn't be able to control the explosions, hence the ten minute trap would fail. If she can seal explosions into paper herself, it's an effortless ability or else she'd never have gotten 600 billion paper tags. I've calculated that Konan would had to have been able to produce 1000 paper tag bombs a second under the assumption she kept on producing them nonstop since she was 15 years old. This isn't like ordinary paper tag bomb seals which is a much slower process.


What are you talking about?

Hanzo, Sasuke, Sakura & Shikamaru have all initiated explosion tags on command, are you implying they created these paper bombs themselves - and didn't merely take them from their village armory / purchase them?

She can't seal explosions into paper herself, she can't create the sealed explosion herself.

They are made by ninja who specalize in weapon creation, because no specific shinobi has shown the ability to create them out of thin air (bar Tobirama, who copies and enlarges them after applying special tags on the opponent and requires the flesh of a zombie or himself to do so).


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## Icelerate (Dec 5, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Why would he be shocked if she could do it ordinarily?
> 
> He wasn't shocked when she threw a ton of paper at him, which he knows she can do ordinarily.


Because he expected her to come at him. What he didn't expect is that she would dupe him by making him absorb her on purpose. He was shocked because he was tricked. 


> You failed to counter it.


No I didn't. You claimed she didn't use it against Jiraiya or the Aburame clan yet we know shinobi don't necessarily use all their abilities in one fight.


> No he has not. He was prepped accordingly for the ambush squad and the assassination mission on Sasuke.


The paper tag bombs were coming from inside his scroll so he drew them on a whim. 


> What are you talking about?
> 
> Hanzo, Sasuke, Sakura & Shikamaru have all initiated explosion tags on command, are you implying they created these paper bombs themselves - and didn't merely take them from their village armory / purchase them?
> 
> ...


They've made them explode after hitting a target. As for Hanzo, he uses a ninjutsu to cause them to explode. Sai has blatantly been shown creating them and based on how long it would take to manually seal an explosive in each individual paper tag, it should be obvious she can make them herself. 

Hopefully the paper ocean technique is translated so we can see who is right.

Reactions: Winner 5


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 5, 2016)

Just a question out of curiosity; how do you guys think kisame would've done if he was in konans shoes in the fight vs obito and also had about a months prep?


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## SenZu (Dec 5, 2016)

Wait Konan doesn't have days of prep? 

Haha y'all are funny af. This isn't even debatable Kisame is on another level entirely.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 5, 2016)

SenZu said:


> Wait Konan doesn't have days of prep?
> 
> Haha y'all are funny af. This isn't even debatable Kisame is on another level entirely.



If the fight lasts to the 20 min mark then konan can use the paper person of god technique( 600 billion paper bombs) and how is he on a different level?


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 5, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, he was shocked because he didn't anticipate her doing it- which means she can't do it ordinarily, ergo with prep she did it. He was also shocked she was going to blow him up, but had he anticipated that as a possibility, he wouldn't have absorbed the paper into his eye.



This is so funny because I specifically remeber Obito saying "I shouldn't have underestimated you, you were a former member of the akatsuki after all" which implies to me that he did not know the full scope of her abilities and he greatly underestimated her, thinking she could only use paper. You have to remember, all of Konans other fights have been quick and she escaped with no injuries. In the fight with Obito She knew the only way she was going to have a chance against him was to use her bombs, so thats what she did. She doesn't have to user bombs in every fight if its not necessary to do so.

And you can't count the fight with Jiraiya because that was only in like five seconds. It was just an attack and counter attack. She had no more availbale options after being derenched in oil.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 6, 2016)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Just a question out of curiosity; how do you guys think kisame would've done if he was in konans shoes in the fight vs obito and also had about a months prep?



Would have still lost badly


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 6, 2016)

Idiopodivny said:


> This is so funny because I specifically remeber Obito saying "I shouldn't have underestimated you, you were a former member of the akatsuki after all" which implies to me that he did not know the full scope of her abilities and he greatly underestimated her, thinking she could only use paper. You have to remember, all of Konans other fights have been quick and she escaped with no injuries. In the fight with Obito She knew the only way she was going to have a chance against him was to use her bombs, so thats what she did. She doesn't have to user bombs in every fight if its not necessary to do so.
> 
> And you can't count the fight with Jiraiya because that was only in like five seconds. It was just an attack and counter attack. She had no more availbale options after being derenched in oil.


Please reply to the post I addressed you with on the last page, not the one I addressed @Icelerate with 

In *Full, *if possible


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 6, 2016)

> Because he expected her to come at him. What he didn't expect is that she would dupe him by making him absorb her on purpose. He was shocked because he was tricked.


Why would he not expect someone he should have known could create explosive tags, by your logic, to not use explosive tags against him?

Are you implying Obito is mentally challenged?



> No I didn't. You claimed she didn't use it against Jiraiya or the Aburame clan yet we know shinobi don't necessarily use all their abilities in one fight.


Why would she use regular paper attacks, and not mix in explosive tags against a legendary Sannin?



> The paper tag bombs were coming from inside his scroll so he drew them on a whim.


Fair enough, it appears they're coming from his scroll, meaning he can either create them or is summoning them from a weapon stock - which most people like myself believe.

I could be wrong, it's possible two shinobi have proven to be capable of creating explosion tags out of thin air.

Neither of which are Konan.



> They've made them explode after hitting a target. As for Hanzo, he uses a ninjutsu to cause them to explode. Sai has blatantly been shown creating them and based on how long it would take to manually seal an explosive in each individual paper tag, it should be obvious she can make them herself.


No, Sakura pulled one out and detonated it near herself while in a poison cloud. Hanzo made a seal, and manipulated them to wrap around Nagato's feet, then detonated them. Sasuke summoned them, activated them, and threw them when they were already lit on a timed fused.

All three shinobi could control and activate the explosive tags on command.

So let me get this straight, you using mathematics to claim it's impossible that Konan got that many paper explosives in that time frame if created by weapon experts?

Math - in a Shonen Manga?

In Kishimoto's manga?

There are literally hundreds of cases where mathematics are given the finger in this manga outright by the author, most of which deal with physics. The only thing you can use them for is to scale attacks or enemies - and some debaters don't even accept those mathematical deductions.

Anyway, as far as we know there could be weapon experts capable of cloning the explosive seals onto paper at a high rate. A mere decade and a half later we have weapon experts sealing multiple elemental and shape transformation high-level jutsu into a remote control brace device where a shinobi is not even needed to activate.


> Hopefully the paper ocean technique is translated so we can see who is right.


It is translated. Narutowiki says nothing about Konan creating the explosion tags herself, and it lists the 4th databook as a reference.



If she could create them herself it would have been noted. The technique's power comes from 10 minutes of simultaneous massive explosions. All it implies in their deduction is she has prepared explosive tags mixed in with her normal sheets. Prepared implies she acquired the tags by any means possible.

The premise of my argument is simple
1. She had months of prep with an entire village backing her
2. There are multiple instances in the manga that point to her inability to create/use them without prep
3. She has never shown to create an explosive tag in the entire manga
4. The databook hasn't noted her ability to create an explosive tag
5. No one has stated or implied she has the ability to create an explosive tag


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 6, 2016)

lol konan can change the colors of her paper so technically she can write the word explode like a typical explosive tag and her paper is already infused with chakra so am I missing something?


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 6, 2016)

Explosive Tags (起爆札, _Kibaku Fuda_) are scraps of paper inscribed with a special writing, centring around the kanji for "explode" (爆, _baku_). Infused with chakra, they will explode after a set amount of time, remotely, or after being ignited by flame.The tags can be attached to a surface or wrapped around a weapon to be thrown at an enemy. They are very versatile and one of the basic ninja tools. Ninja can confuse their enemies by obtaining fake explosive tags.They work even under heavy rain.

So konan can basically write(with her jutsu) the the words needed for it to explode, Ik it sounds a little stupid but technically she can.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Friendly 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Dec 6, 2016)

Let me know what you guys think


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