# Sentry vs Star Trek



## Nihilistic (Feb 7, 2011)

What, surprised about a method of test not involving Bleach and Naruto? Maybe later. Anyway was wondering who would win in a fight between the Q and Sentry, but at the same time why not throw the rest of the verse in to see what happens.

This is the latest Sentry incarnation before he got suicidal and decided to help the heroes to off himself for good. Both his Sentry and Void personas are in harmony and working towards soloing the verse. Sentry gets full knowledge on the opposition, while they get jack shit.He gets dumped...say, near the Borg controlled territory and has to work from there onward. 

What happens now?


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## Vynjira (Feb 7, 2011)

Nihilistic said:


> What, surprised about a method of test not involving Bleach and Naruto? Maybe later. Anyway was wondering who would win in a fight between the Q and Sentry, but at the same time why not throw the rest of the verse in to see what happens.
> 
> This is the latest Sentry incarnation before he got suicidal and decided to help the heroes to off himself for good. Both his Sentry and Void personas are in harmony and working towards soloing the verse. Sentry gets full knowledge on the opposition, while they get jack shit.He gets dumped...say, near the Borg controlled territory and has to work from there onward.
> 
> What happens now?


Is Sentry/Void immutable? because that would be the only way he lasts any considerable amount of time.

Either way he can't pin down a single Q not to mention the Continuum. At some point Sentry would lose to attrition.


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## Nihilistic (Feb 7, 2011)

He schooled Post-retcon Molecule Man in how this shit is done - MM tried to kill him a few times, which didn't end well. Sentry reformed shortly after and proceeded to crack his skull.

this
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I think that's a fairly high showing.


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## Blitzomaru (Feb 7, 2011)

Q takes this easily. Molecule Man is nowhere near his level of omnipotence. Plus Q has a mastery of time and space. He's practically the lovechild of the infinity Guantlet and Cosmic Cube.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 7, 2011)

Blitzomaru said:


> Q takes this easily. Molecule Man is nowhere near his level of omnipotence. Plus Q has a mastery of time and space. He's practically the lovechild of the infinity Guantlet and Cosmic Cube.



errmmm Q isn't even comparable to some of Odins more higher end feats much less a fucking CC


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Feb 7, 2011)

Q tosses him to before the big bang trapping him before everything was. Sentry spends the next billion years figuring out a why to kill himself.


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## Nihilistic (Feb 8, 2011)

Lovely lack of feats from the Q side even after all this time. How unexpected.

Anyway, time based powers look like a no-go against Sentry. MM explained that his molecules were out of synch with everything around him and were permanently 2 seconds in the future or something. I don't know how does that work, but when he was killed in the past by Morgan le fay, I think, it didn't affect him in the slightest. Looks like Sentry exists in a timeline of his own. Throw him back/forth or kill him, he's always right next to ya and ready to rip your head off.

How can the trekkies resist their molecules being scattered to the winds, mindrape or soulfucks?


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## Vynjira (Feb 8, 2011)

Nihilistic said:


> Lovely lack of feats from the Q side even after all this time. How unexpected.


Q has done everything suggested so far.


> Anyway, time based powers look like a no-go against Sentry.


Only its not a time based power, so I fail to see your point.

All it means is that the Sentry exists independently from the time-line. Meaning he is not affected by changes in the time-line. Nothing prevents Sentry from being ported around thru time.





> How can the trekkies resist their molecules being scattered to the winds, mindrape or soulfucks?


Trekkies?


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## KaiserWombat (Feb 8, 2011)

Members of the Star Trek-verse, he means


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## Nihilistic (Feb 8, 2011)

Vynjira said:


> All it means is that the Sentry exists independently from the time-line. Meaning he is not affected by changes in the time-line. Nothing prevents Sentry from being ported around thru time.



And the Q have done that, really? That still leaves the matter about their defense against his attacks..


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## Blitzomaru (Feb 8, 2011)

Q has ported picard back and forth through his own life with ease, an even ported him back to when life first formed on planet earth, in an attempt to make Picard undo a temporal anomaly Picard created that would have undid the entire universe. Granted Q could have fixed this himself with a snap of his fingers, but he nudged Picard to do it just to test humanity.


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## Vynjira (Feb 8, 2011)

Nihilistic said:


> And the Q have done that, really? That still leaves the matter about their defense against his attacks..


How is going to attack them? They don't have to make themselves visible or take corporeal form or even be in the same realm as him to attack him.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Feb 9, 2011)

Q and the continum wouldn't even be needed here either...


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## Matta Clatta (Feb 9, 2011)

People think Sentry is capable of taking on a non PIS version of Molecule Man?Yeah no not likely.

There are way too many cosmic entities in Star Trek for the Sentry even with the Void to not get hopelessly stomped.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 9, 2011)

Nihilistic said:


> And the Q have done that, really? That still leaves the matter about their defense against his attacks..



the Q are decently powerful feat wise affecting the universe despite being completely outside of it and what have you..and have shown casual time manipulation and BFR type abilities-but regardless of whether bob can attack them or not...and I have trouble buying he can't at least muster some type of counter they aren't any where near the level needed to take on a guy who's killed a cosmic cube level entity not at all



Blitzomaru said:


> Q has ported picard back and forth through his own life with ease, an even ported him back to when life first formed on planet earth, in an attempt to make Picard undo a temporal anomaly Picard created that would have undid the entire universe. Granted Q could have fixed this himself with a snap of his fingers, but he nudged Picard to do it just to test humanity.



for the heck of it

Q vs marvels cosmic abstracts...and the Q as a race vs the LT..who wins?


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## Nihilistic (Feb 9, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> the Q are decently powerful feat wise affecting the universe despite being completely outside of it and what have you..and have shown casual time manipulation and BFR type abilities-but regardless of whether bob can attack them or not...and I have trouble buying he can't at least muster some type of counter they aren't any where near the level needed to take on a guy who's killed a cosmic cube level entity not at all



Yeah, I'm on the same level as you on this one. With the Q being wanked to hell and back, thought it would be a good idea to test both them and Bob. They're both really damn hard to place on the power ladder, especially no-limits-fallacy Sentry.

Unfortunately for me, turns out there's an issue of Sentry, Iron Man and Doom apparently being thrown back in time that I wasn't aware of. Naturally that means that I have done a sloppy research and must concede on this match.

Back to the drawing board to continue my search for more decent match ups. Carry on, people.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 9, 2011)

Nihilistic said:


> Yeah, I'm on the same level as you on this one. With the Q being wanked to hell and back, thought it would be a good idea to test both them and Bob. They're both really damn hard to place on the power ladder, especially no-limits-fallacy Sentry.



I think what makes this a possible less rapetastic thread is Sentry's CIS he's allot like onslaught apoc and Goku in that regard meaning the guy may not be able to counter attack Q on stupidity basis

but I'm honestly not seeing anything they can do to him any ways



Nihilistic said:


> Unfortunately for me, turns out there's an issue of Sentry, Iron Man and Doom apparently being thrown back in time that I wasn't aware of. Naturally that means that I have done a sloppy research and must concede on this match.



this ended with Sentry smashing through the cirmson bands and I mean to the extent they literally exploded

Genis Vell BFR'd pre retcon Sentry after him and bobs combine energies created an aura that was supposedly planet sized and putting out multi world destroying power..iirc and it only stalled bob for so long

so while they can ring him out..unless you as the OP'er impose a ten count I honestly doubt they can slow the guy down for long



Nihilistic said:


> Back to the drawing board to continue my search for more decent match ups. Carry on, people.



Bobs CIS makes it closer then it would be if it where say MM...and the Q are decently powerful and should probably be placed in matches with beings above herald level but I wouldn't put them on or above say top tier skyfathers personally..


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## Vynjira (Feb 9, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> but I'm honestly not seeing anything they can do to him any ways
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How does that compare to the energy released in the Big Bang?





> this ended with Sentry smashing through the cirmson bands and I mean to the extent they literally exploded


What does that have to do with anything? Sub Mariner broke them and they should always explode being a spell that was broken.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 9, 2011)

Vynjira said:


> How does that compare to the energy released in the Big Bang?



who said it did? what did that post or the one above it have to do with the big bang? or Q's durability at all? which what I assume..your going for here




Vynjira said:


> What does that have to do with anything? Sub Mariner broke them and they should always explode being a spell that was broken.



it looked cool as hell and he was looking for that particular instance sos I brought it up..and I don't recall Namor ever "asploding" the bands the way they made bob do it..iirc him going crazy on astral strange after Namor did though that was kinda cool


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## Vynjira (Feb 9, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> who said it did? what did that post or the one above it have to do with the big bang? or Q's durability at all? which what I assume..your going for here


"but I'm honestly not seeing anything they can do to him any ways, him and bobs combine energies created an aura that was supposedly planet sized and putting out multi world destroying power." <- Which you said only stalled him for a little while.

Which doesn't even compare to the energy released in the Big Bang. Which is what was already stated as one thing Q could do.





> it looked cool as hell and he was looking for that particular instance sos I brought it up..and I don't recall Namor ever "asploding" the bands the way they made bob do it..iirc him going crazy on astral strange after Namor did though that was kinda cool


I didn't say Namor made them explode..

You made it sound as if it would make a difference


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## Orochibuto (Feb 9, 2011)

Arent Q reality warpers?


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## Velocity (Feb 9, 2011)

Um... Did people also forget that any Q can strip omnipotent beings of their power? In fact, it seems a common ability considering it's happened multiple times - hell, didn't they even make Riker omnipotent for the lulz? Anything anyone in the Marvelverse can do, Q can do (and more besides).

To put it shortly - each Q has limitless control over matter-energy transformation and teleportation, time travel, as well as complete control over space, matter and time. During the Q Civil War, even though their battles took place in another dimension, they *still* blew up a bunch of stars in our universe by accident.

I'd be more curious as to how long the entire Marvelverse would last against a single Q, myself.


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## Vynjira (Feb 9, 2011)

Not long, the Marvelverse has beings that are truly Omnipotent.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 9, 2011)

Lyra said:


> Um... Did people also forget that any Q can strip omnipotent beings of their power? In fact, it seems a common ability considering it's happened multiple times - hell, didn't they even make Riker omnipotent for the lulz? Anything anyone in the Marvelverse can do, Q can do (and more besides).
> 
> To put it shortly - each Q has limitless control over matter-energy transformation and teleportation, time travel, as well as complete control over space, matter and time. During the Q Civil War, even though their battles took place in another dimension, they *still* blew up a bunch of stars in our universe by accident.
> 
> I'd be more curious as to how long the entire Marvelverse would last against a single Q, myself.



Living Tribunal, Heart of The Universe Thanos and TOAA should have no problem with them.

Yes Q are very strong, I would say they are like each a cosmic cube, bu they in no way are on the level of top tiers of marvel. And the "omnipotent" beigns they took away their powers wasnt omnipotent, if it wasnt they would had been unable to take away their powers.

You seem to define omnipotence as "the ability to do whatever you want, your thought becomes reality" this is omnipotence this is reality warping.

Though I agree that Sentry would lose, he has no way to face them if they are reality warpers, unless he has shown immunity to warping. There is a couple of races and beigns that should be able to beat them.


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## Velocity (Feb 9, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> Yes Q are very strong, I would say they are like each a cosmic cube, bu they in no way are on the level of top tiers of marvel. And the "omnipotent" beigns they took away their powers wasnt omnipotent, if it wasnt they would had been unable to take away their powers.



Er... They frequently take away *each other's* powers. Q himself, the main one we all know, had his powers taken away multiple times for multiple reasons. Then there was the one who was suicidal, so he had his taken away to protect himself... So I don't get why you think you cannot be omnipotent if you can have your power taken away. Surely a being, or beings, as strong as you should be able to do the job?



> You seem to define omnipotence as "the ability to do whatever you want, your thought becomes reality" this is omnipotence this is reality warping.



Then what his ominpotence if it isn't doing whatever you want, whenever you want? Which is exactly what the Q are capable of?



> Though I agree that Sentry would lose, he has no way to face them if they are reality warpers, unless he has shown immunity to warping.



They're not just reality warpers, they have control over everything! Literal control. They're classified as omnipotent in the Star Trek universe and that's really the end of that discussion. You can't say they're not omnipotent when they're named as much multiple times in Star Trek canon.


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## Vynjira (Feb 9, 2011)

Q told Tuvok they aren't Omnipotent, they just seem that way.


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## Velocity (Feb 9, 2011)

Vynjira said:


> Q told Tuvok they aren't Omnipotent, they just seem that way.



You mean Quinn, the suicidal one. I'm not entirely sure if his comments should be taken seriously or not - he also said the Q were once humanoid, even though other Q tell us they always existed as they are now.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 9, 2011)

Lyra said:


> Er... They frequently take away *each other's* powers. Q himself, the main one we all know, had his powers taken away multiple times for multiple reasons. Then there was the one who was suicidal, so he had his taken away to protect himself... So I don't get why you think you cannot be omnipotent if you can have your power taken away. Surely a being, or beings, as strong as you should be able to do the job?



No, omnipotents cant be defeated, period. Read this:

*Facts about Omnipotents

    * They cannot have their powers stolen (I?m looking at you haruhitards)
    * Omnipotents cannot fail at doing anything because if they do fail at doing something they're not Omnipotent
    * Omnipotents cannot lose to anyone, even Goku (keep this in mind Phenom Brigade)
*




Lyra said:


> Then what his ominpotence if it isn't doing whatever you want, whenever you want? Which is exactly what the Q are capable of?



Then according to you Haruhi Suzumiya should be omnipotent right? No, she is a reality warper a reality warper can do whatever he or she wants, yet that doesnt mean they are omnipotent. They are RELATIVELY omnipotents to non warpers, reality doesnt limit them they can do whatever they want except when it implies beigns that => them.

An omnipotent doesnt have beigns that => them, they are simply the high end beign, period.



Lyra said:


> They're not just reality warpers, they have control over everything! Literal control. They're classified as omnipotent in the Star Trek universe and that's really the end of that discussion. You can't say they're not omnipotent when they're named as much multiple times in Star Trek canon.



Guess what? A reality warping like Haruhi or Jim Jaspers has control over everything, literal control. That doesnt mean they are omnipotents.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 9, 2011)

Vynjira said:


> "but I'm honestly not seeing anything they can do to him any ways, him and bobs combine energies created an aura that was supposedly planet sized and putting out multi world destroying power." <- Which you said only stalled him for a little while.



no being hurled into another dimension was what briefly stalled pre retcon bob the planet leveling force was doing nothing what so ever to him



Vynjira said:


> "Which doesn't even compare to the energy released in the Big Bang. Which is what was already stated as one thing Q could do



yes I'm aware that the Q can just chill inside the big bang no problem but, vs some one who had enough power and control to brute force kill a cosmic cube level entity...



Vynjira said:


> "
> 
> You made it sound as if it would make a difference



I don't believe that was my intention merely I felt the scene was awesome and he should read..we where kinda on a side tangent there




Lyra said:


> Um... Did people also forget that any Q can strip omnipotent beings of their power? In fact, it seems a common ability considering it's happened multiple times - hell, didn't they even make Riker omnipotent for the lulz?



you can show me feats backing up their omnipotence yes? because everything they've done..from creating alternate time lines to affecting the main trekverse from their own separate reality..people an order beneath the guy Bob flat out murdered can do pretty easily




Lyra said:


> Anything anyone in the Marvelverse can do, Q can do (and more besides).



gross over estimation of they're abilities..



Lyra said:


> To put it shortly - each Q has limitless control over matter-energy transformation and teleportation, time travel, as well as complete control over space, matter and time.



based on what?



Lyra said:


> During the Q Civil War, even though their battles took place in another dimension, they *still* blew up a bunch of stars in our universe by accident.



yeah that's friggen powerful...but mind you the entire species in a balls to the wall civil war with custom fashioned weaponry...out putted enough power to do something Odin and Mephisto have both done..alone on their own under their own might

not seeing a bunch of people that are gonna be crapping on kubik..or something there



Lyra said:


> I'd be more curious as to how long the entire Marvelverse would last against a single Q, myself.



they can handle it just fine...putting in a call to MJJ..a decently fed Galactus or the celestials..should be more then enough


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## Orochibuto (Feb 9, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> gross over estimation of they're abilities..



I agree, the guy basically thinks that reality warping = omnipotence. He seems to think beigns on the tier of Haruhi Suzumiya are omnipotents.

To be omnipotent:
1)You have to prove you are able to control at least a multiverse, and then having a credible enough character calling you omnipotent and not beign denied by any other source.


2) In case your continuity doesnt have enough high end feats like universes and multiverses: everytime you appear in your continuity doing what you want perfectly according to your will and not failing on doing something even a single time and doing it with ease. If someone is able to put a 1-1 fight with you, then you are certaintly not omnipotent. In addition a credible enough source must state you omnipotend and this claim cant be disputed on the entirety of the series or doubted.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 9, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> I agree, the guy basically thinks that reality warping = omnipotence. He seems to think beigns on the tier of Haruhi Suzumiya are omnipotents.



no he dosn't from what I gather lyra thinks statements are valid and that the Q's feats some how prove that they are a whole species of TOAAA's when they don't even compare to stuff some Skyfathers and other high end magical beings have done

theres no disputing the power these guys have though..its the level they are very powerful just not nearly what they are being inflated to



Orochibuto said:


> ]To be omnipotent:
> 1)You have to prove you are able to control at *least a multiverse,* and then having a credible enough character calling you omnipotent and not beign denied by any other source.



no you don't, but you do need to be the one not the many..the mere fact that theres an entire race of "omnipotents" craps on the Q's supposed PL


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## Vynjira (Feb 9, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yes I'm aware that the Q can just chill inside the big bang no problem but, vs some one who had enough power and control to brute force kill a cosmic cube level entity...


Which is either Jobbing or Cosmic Cubes are not Q level or Cosmic Cubes may be more powerful but more vulnerable.

I don't think Sentry is going to survive the force of the Big Bang nor can he deal that much damage. Nor can he resist them tampering with his powers.


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## Velocity (Feb 9, 2011)

Orochibuto said:


> I agree, the guy basically thinks that reality warping = omnipotence. He seems to think beigns on the tier of Haruhi Suzumiya are omnipotents.



Ugh, ignoring your completely ill-mannered post... You really should stop assuming things. I say the Q are capable of anything, you say they're not and that they're just reality warpers. Tnen you bring up a bunch of crappy "rules" some idiot on the internet wrote and I'm supposed to roll over and play dead?

An omnipotent cannot have their powers stolen? Not even by other omnipotent beings? They cannot lose a fight, ever? Then what happens if they fight another omnipotent being?

If you refuse to acknowledge Q as omnipotents, then the closest compromise I can think of in Marvel is that their entire race is on par with Abstract-level power (that of Death, Oblivion, Infinity and Eternity). At which time it would mean the likes of Classic Beyonder would be needed to defeat even one of them. Is Sentry a match _now_?


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## Orochibuto (Feb 9, 2011)

Lyra said:


> Ugh, ignoring your completely ill-mannered post... You really should stop assuming things. I say the Q are capable of anything, you say they're not and that they're just reality warpers. Tnen you bring up a bunch of crappy "rules" some idiot on the internet wrote and I'm supposed to roll over and play dead?
> 
> An omnipotent cannot have their powers stolen? Not even by other omnipotent beings? They cannot lose a fight, ever? Then what happens if they fight another omnipotent being?
> 
> If you refuse to acknowledge Q as omnipotents, then the closest compromise I can think of in Marvel is that their entire race is on par with Abstract-level power (that of Death, Oblivion, Infinity and Eternity). At which time it would mean the likes of Classic Beyonder would be needed to defeat even one of them. Is Sentry a match _now_?



Fine, show me a feat of Q's that Haruhi who is very much NOT omnipotent wouldnt be able to do.

Then show me a feat of Q's that Jim Jaspers isnt capable of doing who also isnt omnipotent.

Hell possibly even IG Thanos is too much for Qs.

There CANNOT exist more than 1 omnipotent beigns until said omnipotent is just 1 single entity who divide itself into many parts or personalities, like the concept of God in Hindu-Buddhi philosophies. Usually said omnipotent is the creator of existence too.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 9, 2011)

Lyra said:


> If you refuse to acknowledge Q as omnipotents, then the closest compromise I can think of in Marvel is that their entire race is on par with Abstract-level power (that of Death, Oblivion, Infinity and Eternity). At which time it would mean the likes of Classic Beyonder would be needed to defeat even one of them. Is Sentry a match _now_?



the Q are not even remotely on such a level at all like at all



Vynjira said:


> Which is either Jobbing or Cosmic Cubes are not Q level or Cosmic Cubes may be more powerful but more vulnerable.]



MM was iirc capable of multiversal reality warping which is far greater then anything Q has displayed in canon proper...Sentry straight up murdered him and iirc came off much more powerful

you can argue jobbing thats fine I don't like Bob enough to argue it but it seems a totally valid retcon that while I do not agree with cannot..see anything against it



Vynjira said:


> I don't think Sentry is going to survive the force of the Big Bang nor can he deal that much damage. Nor can he resist them tampering with his powers.




why not? even some one as broken as molecule man couldn't keep him down for long and ended up loosing his life?


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## Orochibuto (Feb 9, 2011)

Lyra you are aware that Big Bang is just the force that created ONE universe right? How are they going to fight multiversals and omniversals those 2 are way below omnipotents.


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## Vynjira (Feb 9, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> MM was iirc capable of multiversal reality warping which is far greater then anything Q has displayed in canon proper...


The difference is MM didn't use any of that power to destroy Sentry. Nothing he did to Sentry was even Galactic level.

There is nothing to suggest he could have hurt MM or even a Cosmic Cube in a non-physical form.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 9, 2011)

Vynjira said:


> The difference is MM didn't use any of that power to destroy Sentry. Nothing he did to Sentry was even Galactic level.
> 
> There is nothing to suggest he could have hurt MM or even a Cosmic Cube in a non-physical form.



but his own cosmic powers..would of protected his arse regardless of what form he is in though yes? Bob still overwrote that



Orochibuto said:


> Lyra you are aware that Big Bang is just the force that created ONE universe right? How are they going to fight multiversals and omniversals those 2 are way below omnipotents.



its worth noting that the Q did not create the universe..the big bang was not a Q's doing nor do they ever attack with such force on average merely that they are powerful and tough enough to hang out..in the big bang..and consider it like a vacation spot

which is damn impressive for TV sci fi..but not..really on a comic book or anime scale

the entire species in a civil war where they needed to manufacture weaponry to harm themsevles..(I've never heard of a case where an omnipotent gets taken out with a gat..how ever powerful outside of the Ultimate nullifier..and I highly doubt Q where wielding weaponry remotely close to that level ) where able to out put enough damage that eventually the universe..or rather subspace a facet of one universe would of possibly collapsed eventually

that suggests cumulative damage on a universal scale..or partially universal again from weaponry they created to fight a war..which their own personal might..just wasn't enough

I'm not especially seeing anything in that that compares to cosmic abstracts


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## Vynjira (Feb 10, 2011)

Lyra said:


> I'm not entirely sure if his comments should be taken seriously or not - he also said the Q were once humanoid


I don't think he actually did.





The Immortal WatchDog said:


> but his own cosmic powers..would of protected his arse regardless of what form he is in though yes?


Not really, the idea isn't that they are using power to shield themselves. Its more like they aren't even there.





> its worth noting that the Q did not create the universe


No, the just can survive it and bring others to it, as well as remove Sentry from his powers.





> the entire species in a civil war where they needed to manufacture weaponry


Q states several times that they are merely manifestations that the humans can comprehend. Much like their Humanoid form isn't actually them.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 10, 2011)

Seeing this thread reminds one of a thread I found lurking the OBD wikia where it said that Saiyans were the most powerful race in fiction , I dont know why though, had something to do with the Q's I guess.

As for the thread, yes the Q's should obliterate Sentry hard. What I am arguing about is the silly idea that Q's are omnipotent or even multivesals.

Watchdog come on man we all now that Sentry giving a fight to MM was full of PIS I mean the guy was supposedly on the tier or Pre-Retcon Beyonder.


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## Nihilistic (Feb 10, 2011)

Molecule Man was retconned together with Beyonder and left at Cube level, but their fight was still affecting the multiverse. If it was pre-retcon MM that Sentry fought.. The fight would've had a different outcome.

Anyway, the Q wank is strong is this thread.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 10, 2011)

Nihilistic said:


> Molecule Man was retconned together with Beyonder and left at Cube level, but their fight was still affecting the multiverse. If it was pre-retcon MM that Sentry fought.. The fight would've had a different outcome.
> 
> Anyway, the Q wank is strong is this thread.



Thanks for clarifying.


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## Endless Mike (Feb 10, 2011)

In "Death Wish" they were not in the middle of the Big Bang, the were observing it from some kind of other dimension or something. That's the only way to explain all of the inconsistencies in that scene.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 10, 2011)

Vynjira said:


> I don't think he actually did.]



Q proper eluded to that when discussing things with Picard once iirc




Vynjira said:


> Not really, the idea isn't that they are using power to shield themselves. Its more like they aren't even there


was talking about MM


[





Vynjira said:


> ].No, the just can survive it and bring others to it,



they can chill inside it..or view it from some vacation realm

[





Vynjira said:


> ]as well as remove Sentry from his powers.



based on what?



Vynjira said:


> Q states several times that they are merely manifestations that the humans can comprehend. Much like their Humanoid form isn't actually them.



Q states that the gats looking like single action old school Wyatt Earp style revolvers and the civil war itself looking like what it looked like was a representation humans could understand. They still had actual Q made weapons..Janeway iirc uses one at one point


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Feb 10, 2011)

one q hides out before the big bang. one q takes him and his guest away before the bang goes off so the guest doesn't die.

one q teleports voyager to darkness and they shit their pants while Q is like: "lol big bang is pretty to watch". q teleports his guest away so they don't die. 

Q's would survive the Big bang explosion. 
q war was taking place in a higher dimension, and yet, their weapons still caused supernova(s) in lower shit planes.
q has erased entire species across galaxies.
q rewrote all of history for picard.
Q slaughters sentry like a hobo does a free meal.


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## Endless Mike (Feb 10, 2011)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> one q hides out before the big bang. one q takes him and his guest away before the bang goes off so the guest doesn't die.
> 
> one q teleports voyager to darkness and they shit their pants while Q is like: "lol big bang is pretty to watch". q teleports his guest away so they don't die.



They were outside of it and detecting particles, which wouldn't have been possible if they were in it. Meaning they were observing it from another dimension. 



> Q's would survive the Big bang explosion.



No. And it's not an explosion, it's an expansion.



> q war was taking place in a higher dimension, and yet, their weapons still caused supernova(s) in lower shit planes.



Which is really kind of pathetic compared to most cosmic feats.



> q has erased entire species across galaxies.



No. Never happened.



> q rewrote all of history for picard.



He performed a few tricks by shifting him between alternate timelines but most of it was manipulating Picard into causing all the stuff to happen himself.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 10, 2011)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> q has erased entire species across galaxies.
> s



that was Kevin and he was a dowd and he only did it to a species on the border of Federation space..one apparently so minor they didn't even notice them...(and seeing as they noticed races as crummy as those Cardassians bums the Hushnuk must of been pretty low on the food chain) and he didn't erase them he flat out murdered them all not the same thing



Endless Mike said:


> He performed a few tricks by shifting him between alternate timelines but most of it was manipulating Picard into causing all the stuff to happen himself.



to be fair in that instance he did seem to create an entire alternate history with out affecting the main time line at all which is pretty impressive but again not something outside the purview of any mid tier marvel cosmic..much less abstracts and stuff the Q was being compared to here


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Feb 10, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> They were outside of it and detecting particles, which wouldn't have been possible if they were in it. Meaning they were observing it from another dimension.



Never stated in the show. it could be just as likely Q altered voyager to let them do so. 



Endless Mike said:


> No. And it's not an explosion, it's an expansion.



it's implied.



Endless Mike said:


> Which is really kind of pathetic compared to most cosmic feats.



most marvel cosmic feats aren't relevant to this thread since we're nto talking about them.




Endless Mike said:


> No. Never happened.
> 
> 
> 
> He performed *a few tricks *by shifting him between alternate timelines but most of it was manipulating Picard into causing all the stuff to happen himself.



my mistake.

aka he altered all of history...


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## Endless Mike (Feb 10, 2011)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> Never stated in the show. it could be just as likely Q altered voyager to let them do so.



It's the most logical conclusion. The Big Bang is the expansion of spacetime, there is no "outside" of it as it encompasses everything in the universe. So, to be "outside" of it, they would have to be in another dimension.



> it's implied.



You tell me something is wrong because it was never stated and then right after claim something counts because it was implied? 



> most marvel cosmic feats aren't relevant to this thread since we're nto talking about them.



Dodge



> aka he altered all of history...



He manipulated Picard into creating an anomaly that altered history. He didn't just snap his fingers and history was changed.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 10, 2011)

in the episode where Picard dies on the operating table he did alter history

just not on the massive scale of that anomaly in all good things


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## Vynjira (Feb 10, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> In "Death Wish" they were not in the middle of the Big Bang, the were observing it from some kind of other dimension or something.


Except they say the ship will not survive the formation of the cosmos. Q even tells Torres to think of the honour of having your DNA spread from one corner of the universe to the other. Why, you could be the origin of the humanoid form.





> That's the only way to explain all of the inconsistencies in that scene.


It doesn't but regardless the inconsistencies that you're claiming are within suspension of disbelief. Kind of like speedsters talking at supersonic speeds. Beings that can bend and warp space-time should be excused from those inconsistencies.


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## Endless Mike (Feb 11, 2011)

Vynjira said:


> Except they say the ship will not survive the formation of the cosmos. Q even tells Torres to think of the honour of having your DNA spread from one corner of the universe to the other. Why, you could be the origin of the humanoid form.



Which is fucking retarded, as molecules including DNA could not even exist until millions of years after the Big Bang.



Obviously the real problem is that the Voyager writers were scientifically ignorant, but we have to find a better rationalization for that in - universe. Some energy could be bleeding through to the other dimension to endanger them a bit, but they were obviously not in the Big Bang.



> It doesn't but regardless the inconsistencies that you're claiming are within suspension of disbelief. Kind of like speedsters talking at supersonic speeds. Beings that can bend and warp space-time should be excused from those inconsistencies.



Wrong. It was completely retarded as they presented it as a traditional explosion rather than an expansion of spacetime, which is a common layman's mistake. They also said they were detecting particles outside the ship before it happened, even though there would be no particles, space, or time. In fact it would just be a singularity. The Big Bang was everything in the entire universe, so to observe it from outside, they would have to have been _outside of the universe_ - hence, in another dimension. This is basic common sense.


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## Vynjira (Feb 11, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> as molecules including DNA could not even exist until millions of years after the Big Bang.


Except for the DNA on the ship. The ship being a pocket of matter existing just outside event.





> It was completely retarded as they presented it as a traditional explosion rather than an expansion of spacetime,


It was never said to be an explosion. Q said "your DNA spread from one corner of the universe to the other."





> They also said they were detecting particles outside the ship before it happened, even though there would be no particles, space, or time.


That is a laymen mistake, for all intents and purposes there was nothing before the Big Bang. Time and space as we know these concepts become rather meaningless as the universe enters a purely quantum mechanical state of indeterminacy.

Creationists often make this mistake or intentionally perpetuate this misunderstanding.


> The Big Bang was everything in the entire universe, so to observe it from outside, they would have to have been outside of the universe - hence, in another dimension. This is basic common sense.


You're making assumptions to dismiss this feat, even tho its well within our suspension of disbelief.

Not to mention there was no Universe outside the ship. Not the ship was outside the Universe. Subtle but important difference that makes your common sense into speculation.


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## pikachuwei (Feb 11, 2011)

Lyra said:


> *An omnipotent cannot have their powers stolen? Not even by other omnipotent beings? They cannot lose a fight, ever? Then what happens if they fight another omnipotent being?
> *



really, lurk more.

omnipotent vs omnipotent = tie. even if say its 2 or more omnipotents vs 1 omnipotent it would be a tie. think of omnipotents as having infinite power

2(or more) x infinite will still only = 1x infinite.

so Man of Miracles + the presence (or watever the DC omnipotent is called again) vs TOAA would still be a tie etc etc thats why matches between verses with omnipotents always have the omnipotents taken out because otherwise its just a tie.

thats the basic definition of omnipotent in OBD iirc. If a character in a fiction is called "omnipotent" but does not fit hte conditions of "omnipotent" (eg, Viewtiful Joe or w/e beating a character stated to be omnipotent by the creators) the character is not counted as "omnipotent" in OBD.

just like how Kubo calls that rock aizen and ichigo slashed a "mountain" but we call it a "large rock"


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## Onomatopoeia (Feb 11, 2011)

Data and Geordie reverse the polarity of the tractor beam, allowing them to instantly kill Sentry.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 11, 2011)

So we all agree Q wins right? Of course they arent omnipotent, but they are still high warpers they should take it. Unless Sentry has resistence to reality warping or immunity.


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## Onomatopoeia (Feb 11, 2011)

With all the crazy retcons for his powers going on, you never know.


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## Orochibuto (Feb 11, 2011)

Onomatopoeia said:


> With all the crazy retcons for his powers going on, you never know.



Is there any feat on him when he resisted or was immune to reality warping? I dont know much about Sentry except what I read at the wikis and the only time I actually read a comic about him was when he defeated World War Hulk.


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## Vynjira (Feb 11, 2011)

Yes we're all agreed that Sentry loses and that Q isn't truly omnipotent.


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## killfox (Feb 11, 2011)

Arent there other Cosmic beings/Abstracts in the Trek verse? Im thinking of a few but i dont know what they were called.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Feb 11, 2011)

killfox said:


> Arent there other Cosmic beings/Abstracts in the Trek verse? Im thinking of a few but i dont know what they were called.



none more powerful then Q in canon any ways

in the EU that's another story but it's not canon


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## Endless Mike (Feb 12, 2011)

Vynjira said:


> Except for the DNA on the ship. The ship being a pocket of matter existing just outside event.



Would you please think before you type? If the ship was destroyed by the Big Bang, it would be reduced to energy. No DNA would survive. If it was outside of the Big Bang, then it was in another dimension, like I said.



> It was never said to be an explosion. Q said "your DNA spread from one corner of the universe to the other."



Please actually pay attention, I'm talking about how it was depicted. They depicted it as a big explosion instead of an expansion.



> That is a laymen mistake, for all intents and purposes there was nothing before the Big Bang. Time and space as we know these concepts become rather meaningless as the universe enters a purely quantum mechanical state of indeterminacy.
> 
> Creationists often make this mistake or intentionally perpetuate this misunderstanding.



This contradicts what I said.... how? They said their sensors were reading baryonic particles outside before it happened, but baryogenesis didn't occur until after the Big Bang. By your own logic, the fact that they were experiencing time passing means they must have been in a separate dimension of spacetime.



> You're making assumptions to dismiss this feat, even tho its well within our suspension of disbelief.



It's not a feat, it's completely illogical and nonsensical. The other alternative is to say it was all an illusion or some other kind of weird phenomenon since if you assume they were not in another dimension it's impossible to reconcile it as a Big Bang.



> Not to mention there was no Universe outside the ship. Not the ship was outside the Universe. Subtle but important difference that makes your common sense into speculation.



Again, that was another writer screwup. There could be no "baryonic particles", or even time or space if there was no universe, like you just said. All of the dialogue in that scene was so scientifically wrong and ignorant we have to ignore it and go by what was actually shown.


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