# Super Shenron VS Saint Seiya



## Juub (Oct 9, 2016)

More interesting twist. Most characters in Dragon Ball are just really good physically. In terms of abilities and hax, they get outclassed by many.

What about Super Shenron? I suppose it's gonna be more difficult to take him down.

-Destroying the Dragon Balls doesn't count as a win.
-Super Shenron does not need a wish to do whatever he wants.

How does it go?

Does he get outsped? Overpowered? Outhaxed?

Scenario 1: Speed equal.
Scenario 2: Speed non equal.


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## Kaaant (Oct 9, 2016)

How is this going to be any different from Goku Vs Saint Seiya?


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## Juub (Oct 9, 2016)

Kaaant said:


> How is this going to be any different from Goku Vs Saint Seiya?


Goku can bring people back from the dead, teleport people across dimensions and recreate life?


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## Kaaant (Oct 9, 2016)

Still not seeing how it changes things. Goku can teleport across dimensions already.


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## Juub (Oct 9, 2016)

Kaaant said:


> Still not seeing how it changes things. Goku can teleport *across dimensions already.*


No he can't.

It changes things because Saint Seiya mostly destroys Dragon Ball because of hax or speed if not destructive power.

Super Shenron should cover hax and destructive power at least.


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## Kaaant (Oct 9, 2016)

IT can travel across dimensions.


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## Juub (Oct 9, 2016)

Kaaant said:


> IT can travel across dimensions.


It cannot. Goku needs a Ki signature to use Instant Transmission. He cannot sense Ki from different dimensions/universes.

That's why he couldn't sense Buu in the ROSAT. It's a separate dimension and Ki cannot be felt from people there.


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## Fang (Oct 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> More interesting twist. Most characters in Dragon Ball are just really good physically. In terms of abilities and hax, they get outclassed by many.
> 
> What about Super Shenron? I suppose it's gonna be more difficult to take him down.
> 
> ...



Give actual feats for other abilities, because you should know that DBS has no chance in speed.


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## Juub (Oct 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Give actual feats for other abilities, because you should know that DBS has no chance in speed.


Ignoring NLF.

-He is the size of multiple galaxies. Possibly millions/billions of light years across in terms of size.

-Lesser Shenrons have shown the ability to teleport entire people across thousands of light years. The ability to -recreate planets. Bring individuals back to life. The ability to instantly kill someone provided that that someone's power doesn't exceed the power of the Shenron.

-Beerus said Super Shenron could destroy the universe if somebody wished it.

-Has apparently the ability to grant ANY wish but that is regarded as a NLF. It possible that he is multiversal as nothing suggests he'd wouldn't be able to just destroy all the universes in Dragon Ball if somebody wished him to. If I remember correctly multiversal in the ODB has a very specific definition. Not sure if destroying 12 universes applies.

-What shown eating planets.

-Not much in terms of speed which is his major weakness.


*Spoiler*: _Don't click if you watch DB Super_ 



-Also showed the ability to swap the souls of people. Transported Goku into Zamasu's body and vice-versa.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 9, 2016)

Kaaant said:


> IT can travel across dimensions.


Instantaneous Movement can do it, but Instant Transmission cannot.


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## Fang (Oct 9, 2016)

Not bad but Saga can still kill it with a GE. Or remove its senses.


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## Jackk (Oct 9, 2016)

Couldn't Saga also possibly brainwash and mind control the dragon into granting a wish in Saga's favor? Not that Saga would really need that

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Fang (Oct 9, 2016)

That's a possibility, certainly.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Juub (Oct 9, 2016)

Jackk said:


> Couldn't Saga also possibly brainwash and mind control the dragon into granting a wish in Saga's favor? Not that Saga would really need that





Fang said:


> That's a possibility, certainly.


What are the limitations of brainwashing and the mechanics? This isn't exactly an organic being we are talking about. It has the ability to do astral projection and the gigantic dragon doesn't talk to people(the one larger than galaxies). It projects itself into a smaller form that is its nucleus and this form talks to people.

The crazy amounts of hax Saint Seiya has makes it very interesting.


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

Juub said:


> What are the limitations of brainwashing and the mechanics? This isn't exactly an organic being we are talking about. It has the ability to do astral projection and the gigantic dragon doesn't talk to people(the one larger than galaxies). It projects itself into a smaller form that is its nucleus and this form talks to people.
> 
> The crazy amounts of hax Saint Seiya has makes it very interesting.



We're talking about Gemini Saga. A guy who even without donning or wearing his Gold Cloth was casually blitzing another Gold Saint, Capricorn Shura, whose >>> the initial speed of expansion that created the universe. A guy who BFRed an entire race of incorporeal beings from one part of the universe to another. A guy who said beings commented had the power to "distort the universe", and whose Galaxian Explosion technique is superior to another Gold Saint, Aries Mu, who can casually erase pocket universes with his Starlight Extinction technique. 

Unless Super Shenron had mental defenses that are above people like Saga and Shaka, its doubtful he can defend against Saga's Demonic Emperor Fist technique.


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 10, 2016)

Juub said:


> What are the limitations of brainwashing and the mechanics? This isn't exactly an organic being we are talking about. It has the ability to do astral projection and the gigantic dragon doesn't talk to people(the one larger than galaxies). It projects itself into a smaller form that is its nucleus and this form talks to people.
> 
> The crazy amounts of hax Saint Seiya has makes it very interesting.



Basically, you cannot break from Genro Maou Ken unless its target see anyone die in front of them (that's the only way to break it). Having a higher mental resistance could work, but DB (including Super), hasn't shown to be able to show feats about mind control resistance or immunity.


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## Worldbreaker (Oct 10, 2016)

I don't think the dragon actually fights lol


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## Jackk (Oct 10, 2016)

Juub said:


> What are the limitations of brainwashing and the mechanics? This isn't exactly an organic being we are talking about. It has the ability to do astral projection and the gigantic dragon doesn't talk to people(the one larger than galaxies). It projects itself into a smaller form that is its nucleus and this form talks to people.
> 
> The crazy amounts of hax Saint Seiya has makes it very interesting.



Saga uses a technique called Genromaoken or basically Demonic Emperor Fist

The technique has been shown to work without the need to physically touch the opponent. Saga in the original manga displayed it against Phoenix Ikki and Leo Aiolia. Saga takes over the victim's mind. After using it on Ikki, Saga even says that Ikki has no free will and must do whatever Saga says, which is even shown as Saga orders Ikki to stab his own arm and Ikki does so

Ikki later ends up resisting the effect, but Ikki also is a specialist in the area and had used his own mind attack/power;however, even someone like Ikki admitted that if Saga's first command had been to behead his comrade Seiya instead of wounding his own arm... Ikki would've undoubtedly chopped Seiya's head off

Aiolia as a powerful gold saint was under Saga's control for quite some time. Aiolia had gone to confront Saga, but Saga used Genromaoken to brainwash Aiolia into thinking he had to be loyal to Saga again. Aiolia retained 20% consciousness apparently, but that basically caused Aiolia pain and to retain at least some personality

Further, if someone under the effect of Genromaoken gets attacked/hit, they apparently lose their consciousness completely and will have no reservations about killing an enemy they're facing. The way that was stated and shown to break the effect of Genromaoken was if the person under the effect saw someone dying, or there's someone with high enough resistance like Ikki... but even then Saga still had Ikki under his control initially for some time


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## NightmareCinema (Oct 10, 2016)

Jackk said:


> Couldn't Saga also possibly brainwash and mind control the dragon into granting a wish in Saga's favor? Not that Saga would really need that



Considering no one in Dragon Ball's shown any resistance to mind-based abilities, definitely possible.

Saga gets a multi-galaxy sized pet dragon now.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Toaa (Oct 10, 2016)

But the dragon needs to take orders in order to do anything but he could prolly erase the existence of cosmos


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

I can't see how they can beat Super Shenron, his size alone makes difficult to picture it really.


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## Blocky (Oct 10, 2016)

Size doesn't matter when you can still affect it when you blow up a Universe and kill it with hax

That's what saga can do.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

Blocky said:


> Size doesn't matter when you can still affect it when you blow up a Universe and kill it with hax
> 
> That's what saga can do.


Since when Saga can blow up an universe ? Show me that mysterious scan please.
Show me his hax working on something with that size please. The range of his hax is also important, if his range is a mere solar system or better a galaxy, you can dream that it will work on something as big as this lizard.
Yes, size matters when it is ridiculously big, and the term " ridiculously " is an understatement.
Super Shenron is the definition of hax itself, he can create or destroy universe by a simple " wish ". That alone is a godly feat for me.


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## Katsuargi (Oct 10, 2016)

Shenron could give itself whatever level of immortality that Zamasu has. That should provide some degree of help here.

The problem is, Super Shenron almost certainly has at least Universal level reality warping, but we have very few specific feats.

Scaling previous feats from other Shenrons to Universe+ level and the immortality he gave to Zamasu.

If there had been more creative wishes done over the years of Dragonball rather than them pretty much being strictly used as phoenix downs we'd have a better range of abilities if not outright reality warping.

But we do not.

The best extrapolation we can probably make is:

1: Any wish granted in the series, scaled to Universe+.
2: Can likely replicate any ability shown in the series, scaled to Universe+.
3: Zamasu level immortality. Can likely remove similar levels of immortality.
4: Can body swap things. Not sure if there's any NFL here or if he could just toss a SS character into a bunny and then eat it.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

When I think that even 5 galaxies is not as big as his single of his teeth, lol, good luck to kill that lizard.


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## Juub (Oct 10, 2016)

NightmareCinema said:


> Considering no one in Dragon Ball's shown any resistance to mind-based abilities, definitely possible.
> 
> Saga gets a multi-galaxy sized pet dragon now.


What kind of resistance are we talking? The closest we've seen was Babidi who could mind control humans and demons alike but couldn't control Vegeta for jack. What is needed to counter that sort of control from Saga? Willpower? Superior mental abilities?


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 10, 2016)

Juub said:


> It cannot. Goku needs a Ki signature to use Instant Transmission. He cannot sense Ki from different dimensions/universes.
> 
> That's why he couldn't sense Buu in the ROSAT. It's a separate dimension and Ki cannot be felt from people there.



Except they could sense SSJ3 Goku powering up, which was felt from the Kaioshin dimension. 

Also, Goku teleported Cell to the afterlife [IE King Kai's planet], literally cross the dimension of life and death when he sensed the ki of King Kai. Goku also teleported to King Kai's planet when he asked King Kai to find New Namek.


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## Iwandesu (Oct 10, 2016)

I actually don't think saga has any feats of bfring or destroying something as ludicrously big as super Shenron 
SS is all about focused damage and even spread away GS best feats lies on either mu erasing star systems  (which are vastly dwarfed by Super Shenron) or defteros supposedly destroying the galaxy inside Another dimension  (which is still dwarfed by Super shenron)


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## Juub (Oct 10, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Except they could sense SSJ3 Goku powering up, which was felt from the Kaioshin dimension.
> 
> Also, Goku teleported Cell to the afterlife [IE King Kai's planet], literally cross the dimension of life and death when he sensed the ki of King Kai. Goku also teleported to King Kai's planet when he asked King Kai to find New Namek.


These aren't exactly in a separate dimension like Universe 10 is. I guess I didn't word it properly. What I meant was universe, not dimension. The ROSAT and Kaioshinkai are dimensions that are part of Universe 7.


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## God Movement (Oct 10, 2016)

Well, to kill Super Shenlong all you need is multi-galaxy level DC which Saga has...so



iwandesu said:


> I actually don't think saga has any feats of bfring or destroying something as ludicrously big as super Shenron
> SS is all about focused damage and even spread away GS best feats lies on either mu erasing star systems  (which are vastly dwarfed by Super Shenron) or defteros supposedly destroying the galaxy inside Another dimension  (which is still dwarfed by Super shenron)



I see what you're saying, but didn't Kanon kind of prove that the damage can be widespread if need be? Not sure if it can be done on a multi-galactic scale though



Akira1993 said:


> Since when Saga can blow up an universe ? Show me that mysterious scan please.
> Show me his hax working on something with that size please. The range of his hax is also important, if his range is a mere solar system or better a galaxy, you can dream that it will work on something as big as this lizard.
> Yes, size matters when it is ridiculously big, and the term " ridiculously " is an understatement.
> Super Shenron is the definition of hax itself, he can create or destroy universe by a simple " wish ". That alone is a godly feat for me.



He can destroy pocket universes via powerscaling. Which should still be a good deal into multi-galaxy level barring any sort of quantification. It's worth mentioning that pocket universes are atypical - they are not necessarily the size of our universe as _we_ know it.


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## xenos5 (Oct 10, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Well, to kill Super Shenlong all you need is multi-galaxy level DC which Saga has...so
> 
> I see what you're saying, but didn't Kanon kind of prove that the damage can be widespread if need be? Not sure if it can be done on a multi-galactic scale though
> 
> He can destroy pocket universes via powerscaling. Which should still be a good deal into multi-galaxy level barring any sort of quantification. It's worth mentioning that pocket universes are atypical - they are not necessarily the size of our universe as _we_ know it.



Katsuargi brought up how Super Shenlong could give himself Zamasu's type of immortality. While I don't think that can counter the hax the SS verse has to offer it should make it much harder to kill with pure DC. If Saga can't definitely cover a multi-galactic scale with his attacks it'd be much harder to outpace that immortality regen.


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## Crackle (Oct 10, 2016)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Instantaneous Movement can do it, but Instant Transmission cannot.


He used it to jump back and forth from the after life and back all the time.


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> I actually don't think saga has any feats of bfring or destroying something as ludicrously big as super Shenron
> SS is all about focused damage and even spread away GS best feats lies on either mu erasing star systems  (which are vastly dwarfed by Super Shenron) or defteros supposedly destroying the galaxy inside Another dimension  (which is still dwarfed by Super shenron)



You are completely wrong. Again, as I have pointed out, Mu erased a fucking pocket universe (the moonrunes in the original Japanese raws even translates from "universe", its not "a star system")  with his Starlight Extinction that Dimensional Iapetos generated with his normal arm swings. CD also pointed out Shaka and Shijma's duel creating destroying numerous universes, and Saga's GE scales to that being "the most destructive and powerful Gold Saint technique" because its the most powerful Gold Saint technique when it comes to destroying shit..

Saga can kill Super Shenron because his GE also has a feat of damaging Athena's Aegis which was boosted by Zeus power, which was sealing Cronos' Megas Drapion.



Akira1993 said:


> Since when Saga can blow up an universe ? Show me that mysterious scan please.
> Show me his hax working on something with that size please. The range of his hax is also important, if his range is a mere solar system or better a galaxy, you can dream that it will work on something as big as this lizard.
> Yes, size matters when it is ridiculously big, and the term " ridiculously " is an understatement.
> Super Shenron is the definition of hax itself, he can create or destroy universe by a simple " wish ". That alone is a godly feat for me.



>Shaka and Shijima create and destroy universes fighting each other
>Mu erases a pocket universe which is well beyond mere "multi galaxy" level
>Saga >>>> Mu

You are wrong.


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

Also to add, a novice Gold Saint like a teenaged Leo Aiolia who hadn't even gained the 8th Sense or mastered the 7th Sense properly was resisting transmutation and matter manipulation/localized reality warping from fucking Pontos.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

God Movement said:


> He can destroy pocket universes via powerscaling. Which should still be a good deal into multi-galaxy level barring any sort of quantification. It's worth mentioning that pocket universes are atypical - they are not necessarily the size of our universe as _we_ know it.


How do you know that this pocket universe is at around multi galaxy in size ? Can I see that scan ?


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> >Shaka and Shijima create and destroy universes fighting each other
> >Mu erases a pocket universe which is well beyond mere "multi galaxy" level
> >Saga >>>> Mu
> 
> You are wrong.


Well, proves it by showing me those scans, let see how the earth and their surrounding are still in one piece after their battle.


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Well, proves it by showing me those scans, let see how the earth and their surrounding are still in one piece after their battle.



Because the damage was contained to the fucking pocket universe that Iapetos created. Try again.



God Movement said:


> This is the pocket universe Starlight Extinction feat I believe.



Indeed though like I said earlier it is a mistranlation because the actual term they use is "universe", not dimension.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> Because the damage was contained to the fucking pocket universe that Iapetos created. Try again.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed though like I said earlier it is a mistranlation because the actual term they use is "universe", not dimension.


Ok, this pocket universe = the real universe ( in size ) for you, proves it then.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## God Movement (Oct 10, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Ok, this pocket universe = the real universe ( in size ) for you, proves it then.



I'll explain it to you. He created a pocket universe. What you see there is a snapshot of the dimension he created. Following this Mu used Starlight Extinction to destroy said space, which is what I posted.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> The universe is still intact with the stars at the background, I think my vision of an universe being destroyed is actually different than yours apparently.



No it isn't.





So far we've confirmed Akira1993 that:

a) doesn't know what he's talking about
b) and has some sort of cataract problem

And I'll break it down one last time for you

Iapetos power is creating and manipulation space and dimensions. His arms created a pocket universe that overlapped their current space on the Earth. Mu used his Starlight Extinction to erase that pocket dimension.

So yes Mu > pocket universes.

Saga >>>>>> Mu.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> No it isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where you see and read that this " dimension " is an entire universe ? Seriously, can you even think carefully about the issue I pointed out ?
And besides, how many universe exist in saint seiya verse, I though it was only " one ".
Yes, I dunno about about the manga version of this verse, hence why I ask scan, but understanding even that was too much for you apparently.
Oh last thing, cataract is a condition that mostly touch old people over 50 years old ( via the degradation of their lens ), since it develop via aging so next time, find something that makes sense.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 10, 2016)

the scale of the mini-universe is fairly considerable


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## God Movement (Oct 10, 2016)

I'm convinced you're trolling now dude. It's a pocket universe of considerable size, as is alluded to. There are similar pocket dimensions like the Hyper Dimension and such which is large as you know, not as large as the regular SS universe or anything like that. But it's of universal scope. Anyway. The point is, Saga is > Mu. So he HAS enough power to take down Super Shenlong whose durability is only as large as the size of his body to our knowledge. Nigh-universal power is enough and Mu displayed he has the scope as his light spread across the entire space.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

It looks like stars to be honest, so it can be a galaxy.


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## God Movement (Oct 10, 2016)

Stars exist inside galaxies.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

God Movement said:


> I'm convinced you're trolling now dude. It's a pocket universe of considerable size, as is alluded to. There are similar pocket dimensions like the Hyper Dimension and such which is large as you know, not as large as the regular SS universe or anything like that. But it's of universal scope. Anyway. The point is, Saga is > Mu. So he HAS enough power to take down Super Shenlong whose durability is only as large as the size of his body to our knowledge. Nigh-universal power is enough and Mu displayed he has the scope as his light spread across the entire space.


I don't understand where you get that pocket universe, I only read " dimension ", the dude even say : " the dimension I created....... " not the " pocket universe ".
I am confusing about something somewhere, maybe it's better to read the whole chapter, if you link me that, it would be nice since I can't find it directly.


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## God Movement (Oct 10, 2016)

Does anyone have the RAW


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 10, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Does anyone have the RAW



I can post them, sure

just give me a moment, I'll be editing this post when I got them

edit: here we go

Reactions: Like 2


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Oct 10, 2016)

If anyone needs confirmation on the spanish scans, post em and I can look over them.


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## Iwandesu (Oct 10, 2016)

You are absolutamente right about shijima and shaka 
Not particularly sold on mu because no galaxy could be seen on iapetus dimension and SS always add galaxies on their pocket universes


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 10, 2016)

@God Movement, I posted the scans


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## Iwandesu (Oct 10, 2016)

Regardless saga takes this


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> *snip*



I'll take that as a concession you have no idea what you are talking about.




iwandesu said:


> You are absolutamente right about shijima and shaka
> Not particularly sold on mu because no galaxy could be seen on iapetus dimension and SS always add galaxies on their pocket universes



Except you are still wrong. Because the kanji/hiragana used was "universe", its described as a universe, and its filled with multitudes of stars. Its a pocket universe.


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## SF latif (Oct 10, 2016)

i would imagine the dimension to be atleast galaxy+ size. however, how do we equate pure Destructive technique with a technique that`s relies on Dimensional Bfr?


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## Iwandesu (Oct 10, 2016)

Visual >statements 
Pocket universes and universe in itself as a japanese term are broad on meaning.
Add that up with the fact There is a lack of galaxies that the verse loves to use and iapetus pocket universe loses ground as an actual universe sized dimension.


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## Iwandesu (Oct 10, 2016)

Hell correct me if im wrong but "space", "world" and universe are all
Written the same


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> Visual >statements
> Pocket universes and universe in itself as a japanese term are broad on meaning.
> Add that up with the fact There is a lack of galaxies that the verse loves to use and iapetus pocket universe loses ground as an actual universe sized dimension.



I don't give a shit, he generates a universe, its filled with stars, it has the Cosmos of a universe as told by everyone else. A far weaker Shaka was destroying universes while Shijima was generating and creating them. Mu states this, Aiolia, states, this and so does Garen.

Get over it.

And no, only world and universe share the same kanji but Archangel who uses the French and Japanese versions as a translator confirmed they used it as specifically universe.


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## God Movement (Oct 10, 2016)

And here's the little characters beside it if anyone is interested: そら み


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> I'll take that as a concession you have no idea what you are talking about.


Lol what ? Are you guided by the ignis fatuus of favoritism toward your serie ?


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

God Movement said:


> There's precedence for dimensions created by Godly beings to be immensely huge e.g. Hyper Dimension.



Yep. And Aiolia and the others wouldn't make a big deal about it if they couldn't sense the power in its creation.



Akira1993 said:


> Lol what ? Are you guided by the ignis fatuus of favoritism toward your serie ?



Its not working, mate.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

How big is a dimension ? This hyper dimension is bigger than an entire universe ? How many universes exist in this verse ? How those visuals indicate it is an entire universe and not a galaxy ( unless there is a clear statement that it is said to be an universe ) ? 

Who is kind enough to answer those questions with simple word ?


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## SF latif (Oct 10, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> How big is a dimension ? This hyper dimension is bigger than an entire universe ? How many universes exist in this verse ? How those visuals indicate it is an entire universe and not a galaxy ( unless there is a clear statement that it is said to be an universe ) ?
> 
> Who is kind enough to answer those questions with simple word ?


hyper-dimension is bigger than our observable universe According to Narration. and the saint seiya verse contains a possible infinite number of timelines/universes


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 10, 2016)

SF latif said:


> hyper-dimension is bigger than our observable universe According to Narration. *and the saint seiya verse contains a possible infinite number of timelines/universes*



What I bolded is actually possible, if we take into account the battle Shaka and Shijima had in Next Dimension.

I'm of the idea Akira1993 is quite interpretating the scans in a very literal way.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> What I bolded is actually possible, if we take into account the battle Shaka and Shijima had in Next Dimension.
> 
> I'm of the idea Akira1993 is quite interpretating the scans in a very literal way.


Yeah, since I don't know the context about it, only the literal way is left for me.


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## SF latif (Oct 10, 2016)

Shaka and Shijami battle weren`t destroying universes. they were replicating universe level energy against each other.
the battle usually get`s drastically out of context. when you read the chapter, you see Shijami generates darkness with his Ungyo meanwhile Shaka generates a light that representes the birth of the univere with his agyo, the exact opposed of ungyo. then narration states they`r destroying/creating countless universes. the most logical interpretation for this, is that they have enough cosmo to generate universe busting level attacks. atleast that`s how i inerprete it because it makes the most sense considering the context behind the narration was.

this is further corroborated in hades-Arc when Shaka was forcing Saga and co into Generating cosmos comparable to big bang in or order to break out of his technique. and still temporarily withstand a focused Big Bang. incase you call it outlier


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 10, 2016)

For Akira1993

There's actually a scene from Men in Black that can basically support the idea of the scans shown from Episode G last page.


Size not always matters. Universes can also be small or compact.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

SF latif said:


> Shaka and Shijami battle weren`t destroying universes. they were replicating universe level energy against each other.
> the battle usually get`s drastically out of context. when you read the chapter, you see Shijami generates darkness with his Ungyo meanwhile Shaka generates a light that representes the birth of the univere with his agyo, the exact opposed of ungyo. *then narration states they`r destroying/creating countless universes.* the most logical interpretation for this, is that they have enough cosmo to generate universe busting level attacks. atleast that`s how i inerprete it because it makes the most sense considering the context behind the narration was.
> 
> this is further corroborated in hades-Arc when Shaka was forcing Saga and co into Generating cosmos comparable to big bang in or order to break out of his technique. and still temporarily withstand a focused Big Bang. incase you call it outlier


Isn't Shaka, the gold saint who get killed by an athena exclamation which is said to be equal to the big bang, which mean an universal level attack ? How the dude can destroy and create *countless universes*, I don't get it ?
He come back to live and get stronger ?


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## SF latif (Oct 10, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Isn't Shaka, the gold saint who get killed by an athena exclamation which is said to be equal to the big bang, which mean an universal level attack ? How the dude can destroy and create *countless universes*, I don't get it ?
> He come back to live and get stronger ?


it`s Nirvana shaka which is stronger than his former self in hades-Arc, since he did not had agyo.


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## NightmareCinema (Oct 10, 2016)

Juub said:


> What kind of resistance are we talking? The closest we've seen was Babidi who could mind control humans and demons alike but couldn't control Vegeta for jack. What is needed to counter that sort of control from Saga? Willpower? Superior mental abilities?


The latter.

The Genromaoken isn't something that's so easily resisted like Babidi's mind control.

Deuteros only managed to resist it because of Asmita helping him out; couldn't do it on his own. The Genromaoken's effects only wore off on him after seeing Aspros die in front of him.

Shura couldn't resist it once it was fully locked in. He could still resist it earlier on during his encounter with Saga because Saga was still learning how to use it properly. After that, nope. Saga had to remove it himself after that in order for Shura to snap out of its effects.

Rhadamanthys and Kairos could also be affected by Genromaoken.

Shit's pretty much beyond any mindfuck abilities Dragon Ball has to offer.


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

There's also the fact that a casual use of Genro Mao Ken/Demonic Emperor's Fist lets its user create intense nerve and mental pain in its target before applying the full effect of mind control.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> For Akira1993
> 
> There's actually a scene from Men in Black that can basically support the idea of the scans shown from Episode G last page.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I can't see your pic or whatever you posted there.
Ok, I know that my knowledge about astrology is limited but I never seen or heard universe being " small ".


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## NightmareCinema (Oct 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> There's also the fact that a casual use of Genro Mao Ken/Demonic Emperor's Fist lets its user create intense nerve and mental pain in its target before applying the full effect of mind control.


Yep.

Also, Fang, couldn't help but notice that you forgot to mention Saga's GODSLAYER-tier feat of making Three-Seal Cronus run for the hills with Galaxian Explosion earlier. And then later nearly kill the fucker with the Golden Dagger.

Same thing happens to Super Shenlong here except there's no statue of Athena big enough to hide behind now.


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 10, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Ok, I know that my knowledge about *astrology* is limited but I never seen or heard universe being " small ".



You know there's a big difference between *ASTRONOMY* and *ASTROLOGY*, right?



NightmareCinema said:


> Yep.
> 
> Also, Fang, couldn't help but notice that you forgot to mention *Saga's GODSLAYER-tier feat of making Three-Seal Cronus run for the hills with Galaxian Explosion earlier.* And then later nearly kill the fucker with the Golden Dagger.
> 
> Same thing happens to Super Shenlong here except there's no statue of Athena big enough to hide behind now.



Oh, shit. How could I forget that part?


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## Crackle (Oct 10, 2016)

uh-oh alert the park rangers we got a sassquatch here


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## Akira1993 (Oct 10, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> You know there's a big difference between *ASTRONOMY* and *ASTROLOGY*, right?


That is what happen when you try to write something at 2:00 am I guess.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 10, 2016)

Kinda off topic, and my Saint Seiya knowledge is limited, but I remember some occasional discussions of Chronus at full power could be multiverse level. Not sure if it is legit or not, but sounds like a topic worth revisiting here.


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

Cronos as in the father of Zeus/Hades/Poseidon or Chronos the God of Time?

The latter WAS able to casually turn Athena into a baby and send her back in time as well as watching over all timelines and past, present, and future.


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## Agent9149 (Oct 10, 2016)

SF latif said:


> Shaka and Shijami battle weren`t destroying universes. they were replicating universe level energy against each other.
> the battle usually get`s drastically out of context. when you read the chapter, you see Shijami generates darkness with his Ungyo meanwhile Shaka generates a light that representes the birth of the univere with his agyo, the exact opposed of ungyo. then narration states they`r destroying/creating countless universes. the most logical interpretation for this, is that they have enough cosmo to generate universe busting level attacks. atleast that`s how i inerprete it because it makes the most sense considering the context behind the narration was.
> 
> this is further corroborated in hades-Arc when Shaka was forcing Saga and co into Generating cosmos comparable to big bang in or order to break out of his technique. and still temporarily withstand a focused Big Bang. incase you call it outlier



I saw it as Shaka using a power that creates a universe and Shijami using a power that destroys a universe and these two powers constantly canceling out each other as they are used. And the "destroying/creating countless universes" was referring to the universe being made by Shaka's power being destroyed by Shijami's power and this happened over and over for as long as the their stand off lasted.



Ampchu said:


> Kinda off topic, and my Saint Seiya knowledge is limited, but I remember some occasional discussions of Chronus at full power could be multiverse level. Not sure if it is legit or not, but sounds like a topic worth revisiting here.



You mean Kronos? Yes. He was destroying all time.


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

That was when Cronos fused with his Dunamis and Megas Drapion

Which actually leads more credence that if it wasn't for Mnemosyne and Pontos, Zeus would have never defeated him to end the Titanomachy


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## Juub (Oct 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> There's also the fact that a casual use of Genro Mao Ken/Demonic Emperor's Fist lets its user create intense nerve and mental pain in its target before applying the full effect of mind control.


Just for the record. Shenron isn't an organic being so hitting his nerves wouldn't do a thing.


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

Being a supernatural entity won't change the effect of Saga's powers on Super Shenron.


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## Juub (Oct 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> Being a supernatural entity won't change the effect of Saga's powers on Super Shenron.


Depends what kind of power we are talking about. Nerves implies having a nervous system connected to a brain which is strictly found in organic beings.

For mind control, no idea if the extent of Saga's power would allow him to control such a being. Shenron isn't exactly your average joe. He could swap Saga's soul with that of a mouse but I bet Saga has some kind of defense against that.


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

Juub said:


> Depends what kind of power we are talking about. Nerves implies having a nervous system connected to a brain which is strictly found in organic beings.



I said a weaker version of it effects the nervous system. Kanon was using it just fine against the immortal Specters of Hades army.



> For mind control, no idea if the extent of Saga's power would allow him to control such a being. Shenron isn't exactly your average joe. He could swap Saga's soul with that of a mouse but I bet Saga has some kind of defense against that.



Taurus Alerbaran lifted a scale with all of humanity's sins on it.
Leo Aiolia resisted matter manipulation and a specialized form of soul fuckery.
Lower tier Gold Saints have had their hearts ripped out by exotic powers.

I really doubt his level of transmutation is going to effect people on Saga or Shaka's levels.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NightmareCinema (Oct 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> I said a weaker version of it effects the nervous system. Kanon was using it just fine against the immortal Specters of Hades army.



Yup. Seriously, if the Genromaoken managed to work on someone like Kairos, it sure as hell will work on Super Shenlong.

Especially since Dragon Ball has a terrible track record regarding resistance to hax.


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 10, 2016)

NightmareCinema said:


> Especially since Dragon Ball has a terrible track record regarding resistance to hax.



Cause everyone and their grandmother fights with ki blasts. 

And because of that there's no argument to be made that they can resist something, since they've never encountered it.


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

Nah best feat to my recollection outside of brute force or power in Dragon Ball pre-super when it comes to more exotic abilities are Babidi being able to telepathically communicate with tens of thousands of people and project his telepathy on a global scale around the planet, Babidi making a guy's head explode with magic, Babidi having his mind control resisted by Majin Vegeta, Majin Buu (Fat) blowing away cities with his breath, and Vegetto beating up Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan) even after being transformed into a candy.

And Vegetto's fusion being protected from the magic power in Buu's stomach had he maintained his Ki barrier.

Also DB characters being able to counter TK with their Kiai.


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## Jackk (Oct 10, 2016)

It would go something like this

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 5 | Winner 2 | Creative 2


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## Juub (Oct 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> I said a weaker version of it effects the nervous system. Kanon was using it just fine against the immortal Specters of Hades army.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why is that? You could ask him to turn the universe into a giant donut and he would be able to do it. Super Shenron is at least universal+ as confirmed by Beerus and can do any kind of transmutation. Why would anyone be immune to it? I'd say the only ones immune would be the ones with a power surpassing his own. If they're weaker, tough luck.

I say that because it seems in DB, power trumps everything. Vegeto was able to remain just as dangerous when Buu turned him into a candy because he was so much more powerful. Everyone else was rendered helpless. If guys like Saga or Virgo are far above Shenron then yes, I could see them resisting his transmutation to some extent but if they aren't, I think not.



Jackk said:


> It would go something like this


And what would prevent Super Shenron from literally doing the exact same thing? We know he can manipulate souls. He could just atomize every souls on a universal scale. Or revert everyone back to embryos. Or as I mentioned before, swap the souls of Saga and a frog.

This ain't just some chump like Goku we're talking about. We're talking about a being that could be considered nigh omnipotent if it wasn't for NLF.

Edit: According to the OBD wiki, Virgo who I believe is a top tier or one of the strongest Gold Saints is Multi Galaxy+ which puts his DC on the same level as Goku. Super Shenron is Universal+. Is his profile outdated? After reading this thread I thought he was Universal to Multiversal.


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

Juub said:


> Why is that? You could ask him to turn the universe into a giant donut and he would be able to do it. Super Shenron is at least universal+ as confirmed by Beerus and can do any kind of transmutation. Why would anyone be immune to it? I'd say the only ones immune would be the ones with a power surpassing his own. If they're weaker, tough luck.
> 
> I say that because it seems in DB, power trumps everything. Vegeto was able to remain just as dangerous when Buu turned him into a candy because he was so much more powerful. Everyone else was rendered helpless. If guys like Saga or Virgo are far above Shenron then yes, I could see them resisting his transmutation to some extent but if they aren't, I think not.
> 
> ...



Because feats when it comes to transmutation, reality warping, time manipulation, matter manipulation, petrification, soul/astral powers, and so on are vastly more impressive in Saint Seiya then Dragon Ball, even with Super upping the ante? Shaka and Shijima produce more then enough energy and power to constantly create and destroy universes. Shaka can seal hundreds of souls into rosaries, Shaka can put someone into a karmic cycle of life, death, and rebirth, any Gold Saints can atomize souls as well as bodies. Dohko maintained a seal on Hades and his Specters for centuries at the Five Peaks in his old form without even donning his Gold Cloth, Saga had the power to harm and kill Gods, etc...

Their feats against more exotic powers and defenses against them are vastly superior.

Also even more importantly, Saga and Shaka have mastered powers like the 8th Sense. Which gives them total control of their own bodies and souls and allows protection against dying when entering Makai from the real world.


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## Juub (Oct 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> Because feats when it comes to transmutation, reality warping, time manipulation, matter manipulation, petrification, soul/astral powers, and so on are vastly more impressive in Saint Seiya then Dragon Ball, even with Super upping the ante? Shaka and Shijima produce more then enough energy and power to constantly create and destroy universes. Shaka can seal seals into rosaries, Shaka can put someone into a karmic cycle of life, death, and rebirth, any Gold Saints can atomize souls as well as bodies.
> 
> Their feats against more exotic powers and defenses against them are vastly superior.


Why is Shaka only listed as Multiy Galaxy+ in the wiki? Is his profile outdated?

Pretty much all of what you said could be done by Super Shenron unless we're gonna assume these feats are too exotic for him to reproduce.


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

I'm not seeing Super Shenron doing any of those things because he'll be dead before he could even gamble on it.


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## Juub (Oct 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> I'm not seeing Super Shenron doing any of those things because he'll be dead before he could even gamble on it.


That's certainly a possibility because they are much faster than he is. Thing is, Shaka is apparently multi galaxy+. That's Shenron's size. Would his range be even large enough to cover someone as large as Super Shenron?

Also, say they both have the ability the atomize one another's soul(assuming Super Shenron has one), wouldn't the more powerful one come out on top? Shenron is confirmed Universe+. Is Shaka also confirmed Universe+?


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

Shaka would be universal level considering he came back from a focused Big Bang alive in Makai and has the power to generate energy to destroy universes without tiring out or running out of power to supply said Ungyo. And said latter feat was done by a bodiless Shaka's soul who dead post Hades arc.

Shenron isn't winning this.


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## NightmareCinema (Oct 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> Nah best feat to my recollection outside of brute force or power in Dragon Ball pre-super when it comes to more exotic abilities are Babidi being able to telepathically communicate with tens of thousands of people and project his telepathy on a global scale around the planet, Babidi making a guy's head explode with magic, Babidi having his mind control resisted by Majin Vegeta, Majin Buu (Fat) blowing away cities with his breath, and Vegetto beating up Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan) even after being transformed into a candy.
> 
> And Vegetto's fusion being protected from the magic power in Buu's stomach had he maintained his Ki barrier.
> 
> Also DB characters being able to counter TK with their Kiai.


Super Buu and Gotenks making a hole in space by shouting in order to escape the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is another one.

But yeah, apart from those, there's really nothing noteworthy.

Well, apart from Akkuman's Devilmite Beam from the first part of the manga as well but that's rather weak.



Jackk said:


> It would go something like this



Legit lel'd.


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## Cipher97 (Oct 10, 2016)

Just to add to the Genro Mao Ken wasn't there evidence to it working down to the soul since Aspros used it on himself before dying and it still affected him later?


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## Juub (Oct 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> Shaka would be universal level considering he came back from a focused Big Bang alive in Makai and has the power to generate energy to destroy universes without tiring out or running out of power to supply said Ungyo. And said latter feat was done by a bodiless Shaka's soul who dead post Hades arc.
> 
> Shenron isn't winning this.


Are there scans for this? Or are they the ones that have been posted in the thread? Because I'm wondering why he hasn't been upgraded to universal.

Off-topic: would you recommend reading Saint Seiya? The story looks very interesting.


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## SF latif (Oct 10, 2016)

Juub said:


> Are there scans for this? Or are they the ones that have been posted in the thread? Because I'm wondering why he hasn't been upgraded to universal.
> 
> Off-topic: would you recommend reading Saint Seiya? The story looks very interesting.



"In the process of reincarnation, countless universes and life-forms are born and disapear/die"


Edited: i would recomment giving a read, it`s an amazing series. also read G and LC as they are the best SS manga`s


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## Fang (Oct 10, 2016)

Cipher97 said:


> Just to add to the Genro Mao Ken wasn't there evidence to it working down to the soul since Aspros used it on himself before dying and it still affected him later?



Yes, Aspros used his own Demonic Emperor Fist technique on himself before he died so he would retain his hate of Athena and the Saints after dying.



Juub said:


> Are there scans for this? Or are they the ones that have been posted in the thread? Because I'm wondering why he hasn't been upgraded to universal.
> 
> Off-topic: would you recommend reading Saint Seiya? The story looks very interesting.



Its from Next Dimension.

And since Saga has been complimented on his power by Gods like Pontos and Cronos, as well as his feats and logical power scaling, he gets that applied to him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 10, 2016)

Juub said:


> Off-topic: would you recommend reading Saint Seiya? The story looks very interesting.



yeah, it's a fine enough fighting shonen story 

if you feel like getting into the spin-off stuff, season one of SS Omega is pretty good

Lost Canvas is worth a shot too, though it has its nonsensical moments


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## Brolypotence (Oct 11, 2016)

SS puts this verse in body bags


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 11, 2016)

So, would it be now a good moment to declare a winner?


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## bitethedust (Oct 11, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> So, would it be now a good moment to declare a winner?



There wasn't much to debate from the very beginning.


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## Juub (Oct 12, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> So, would it be now a good moment to declare a winner?


Seems that way. Can anybody update Shaka Virgo to Multi-Universe level? He's still stuck at Multi Galaxy Level+.


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## God Movement (Oct 12, 2016)

Juub said:


> Seems that way. Can anybody update Shaka Virgo to Multi-Universe level? He's still stuck at Multi Galaxy Level+.



Universe level on impact. Of course if a technique is continued over a long period of time the amount of joules which will be released will be multitudes of times > universe level. But on impact it's a big bang level tech. It's the same reason universe level and multiverse level are distinctly different.


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## Juub (Oct 12, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Universe level on impact. Of course if a technique is continued over a long period of time the amount of joules which will be released will be multitudes of times > universe level. But on impact it's a big bang level tech. It's the same reason universe level and multiverse level are distinctly different.


Then he should be Universe Level+. Much higher than Multi Galaxy+.


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## God Movement (Oct 12, 2016)

Juub said:


> Then he should be Universe Level+. Much higher than Multi Galaxy+.



Agreed. I was correcting you on Multi-Universe.


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## Brolypotence (Oct 12, 2016)

I still have my doubts regarding this matchup.

Is there any char who is Multiverse level in Saint Saiya?


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

Brolypotence said:


> I still have my doubts regarding this matchup.
> 
> Is there any char who is *Multiverse level in Saint Saiya*?


Hell no.


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## God Movement (Oct 12, 2016)

Brolypotence said:


> I still have my doubts regarding this matchup.
> 
> Is there any char who is Multiverse level in Saint Saiya?



I mean, it's quite simple. They are both universe level. But one is faster and has more hax, or rather the hax required to deliver the kill. It's a simple matter of having an overall stat deficit. He isn't going to be able to wish anyone out of existence if he's too slow to do it. Although I personally believe he could pull off the feat if he was given the opportunity _to_ do it, as a DB universe has 2x the volume of a regular one excluding Kaioshin Kai.


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## Brolypotence (Oct 12, 2016)

God Movement said:


> I mean, it's quite simple. They are both universe level. But one is faster and has more hax, or rather the hax required to deliver the kill. It's a simple matter of having an overall stat deficit. He isn't going to be able to wish anyone out of existence if he's too slow to do it. Although I personally believe he could pull off the feat if he was given the opportunity _to_ do it, as a DB universe has 2x the volume of a regular one excluding Kaioshin Kai.


I mean I get it SS is a very haxed verse and outright dwarfs DB in speed but Supe Shenron is unlike anything they've faced before. We're taking about a dragon who could fit hundreds of galaxies in his single tooth, with a solid Universe+ rating. I could argue that Supe Shenron is mutiverse level on basis of Berrus statement but even without it he is way above SS verse fire power.
Lets look at Supe Shenrons feat
Swapping soul bodies whatever of a universe level being(Goku)
Creating a planet, besides large galaxies are like candy to him.
Ate a Saturn class planet on-screen
Possible spatial manipulation
Outshined two Universes
Granted Immortality which is currently holding up against universe level entity (Goku)
Casual MFTL(don't know by how much)
Possible reality warping on universe scale


Now lets flashback to Saiyan Saga Master Roahi asked earth Shenron to kill the Siayas which he couldn't do cause they were stronger than him.
Following that logic Supe Shenron already established direct influence on a universe level being, he can do anything to people on this level and below. Let me remind U earth Shenron was already doing shit Like Immortality and creating planet, bringing people to life even tho he is nowhere near comparable to Supe. So everything earth version can do Supes can do it on much larger scale

And since all that Super Shenron do is Grant wishes then can he not make himself faster than his opponent, or simply gain immunity to opponents attack.
Thats the shit he is doing on daily basis.


As for Saint Saiya I'm still waiting for a universe level feat that is not a hyperbole or a unsettling statement.
And no creating a universe is not the same as destroying one tho I might be wrong I'm willing to hear ur argument.

According to my head Canon Super Shenron is a possible nigh omnipotent being but that's a totally different thing LOL


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## God Movement (Oct 12, 2016)

I'll address a few things.

Super Shenlong has unquantifiable durability. So his durability is only as large as the size of his body which is multi-galaxy sized. Impressive, but not enough to protect him here.

Super Shenlong isn't fast enough, despite his ability to possibly deliver a fatal blow via a wish, so he suffers from that perspective. Comparatively, fighters of Shaka's level have the power to take him down (universal) and the speed to do it, along with the range - looking at Mu's Starlight Extinction. That's pretty much all that is required.

On Shaka's feat - like I said, it's a Big Bang level feat. All it is essentially is The Big Bang. He creates a universe, which is universal. For him to do such a thing you can argue that he must have Cosmos on that level to begin with. So if he can do it via creation, he should be able to do the same thing via destruction...so a >Big Bang level attack. I mean, it isn't hyperbole. They literally showed a Big Bang to illustrate it.

>Big Bang level technique > Super Shenlong's durability. That's all there really is to it.

Power, I'd give to Super Shenlong as he has the ability to do what he wants on a >universal scale (DB universe is 2x the size of a regular universe as Other World is just as big as the living realm + Kaioshin Kai). Speed goes to Shaka and Shaka has attack power > Shenlong's durability.

So he wins. Not complicated.


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## Brolypotence (Oct 12, 2016)

God Movement said:


> I'll address a few things.
> 
> Super Shenlong has unquantifiable durability. So his durability is only as large as the size of his body which is multi-galaxy sized. Impressive, but not enough to protect him here.
> 
> ...


Its hard to swallow few of the facts but anyway SS verse wins


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## Juub (Oct 12, 2016)

God Movement said:


> I'll address a few things.
> 
> Super Shenlong has unquantifiable durability. So his durability is only as large as the size of his body which is multi-galaxy sized. Impressive, but not enough to protect him here.
> 
> ...


Not that it'd change anything but I always assumed unless specified we always equated DC with Durability. Even if we don't do that, it's obviously the case in DB. If a character is far more powerful than another, 100% of the time said character has the durability to match. In fact, barring a few rare exceptions, more powerful in DB means better at everything including speed, durability, strength, firepower etc. For example when Goku turns SSJ3, his durability scales up to his strength. If it didn't he would have gotten torn to pieces by Kid Buu.

Still Shaka and Shenron are both Universal so their DC is almost equal. At least in the same ballpark. Shenron could wish Shaka to be slow as a turtle but it'd require him to be fast enough to even think about it which I don't think he is.


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## God Movement (Oct 12, 2016)

Juub said:


> Not that it'd change anything but I always assumed unless specified we always equated DC with Durability. Even if we don't do that, it's obviously the case in DB. If a character is far more powerful than another, 100% of the time said character has the durability to match. In fact, barring a few rare exceptions, more powerful in DB means better at everything including speed, durability, strength, firepower etc. For example when Goku turns SSJ3, his durability scales up to his strength. If it didn't he would have gotten torn to pieces by Kid Buu.
> 
> Still Shaka and Shenron are both Universal so their DC is almost equal. At least in the same ballpark. Shenron could wish Shaka to be slow as a turtle but it'd require him to be fast enough to even think about it which I don't think he is.



I agree. But not in the case of Super Shenlong as he doesn't use ki, it's reality warping. For any normal character DC = Durability in Dragon Ball, certainly.


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## Brolypotence (Oct 12, 2016)

I was just wondering what kind of shit does a character need to do in order to get septillion FTL .


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## God Movement (Oct 12, 2016)

Brolypotence said:


> I was just wondering what kind of shit does a character need to do in order to get septillion FTL .



High quintillion (low end) - Septillion (high end)

You need to be really fucking quick

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Fang (Oct 12, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Hell no.



>from a person who doesn't even read Saint Seiya
>talking about its capabilities now



Brolypotence said:


> I still have my doubts regarding this matchup.
> 
> Is there any char who is Multiverse level in Saint Saiya?



Cronos merged with his Dunamis was destroying all of time.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

Fang said:


> >from a person who doesn't even read Saint Seiya
> >talking about its capabilities now


Not reading Saint seiya doesn't mean that I can't look at their profile with zero mention of whatsoever multiverse level.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Fang (Oct 12, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Not reading Saint seiya doesn't mean that I can't look at their profile with zero mention of whatsoever multiverse level.



The fact you think the OBD wikia profiles are end all to be all when it comes to a verse is also equally stupid. Keep burying yourself that way if you want to.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Juub (Oct 12, 2016)

God Movement said:


> High quintillion (low end) - Septillion (high end)
> 
> You need to be really fucking quick


And if I remember Dragon Ball tops out at hundreds of billions or something? Several times slower than the top tiers in Saint Seiya.


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## SF latif (Oct 12, 2016)

Hey, don't I deserve a pudding for explaining the context of shaka's universal feat and posting scan along with it's translation? Y'all are so mean

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## God Movement (Oct 12, 2016)

Juub said:


> And if I remember Dragon Ball tops out at hundreds of billions or something? Several times slower than the top tiers in Saint Seiya.



Whis is near 100 quadrillion.


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 12, 2016)

100 quadrillion times FTL is an impressive feat on its own, but Saint Seiya set the speed bar way too high.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Agent9149 (Oct 12, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> 100 quadrillion times FTL is an impressive feat on its own, but Saint Seiya set the speed bar way too high.



I remember the days where being a mere million tilmes ftl was considered top notch.


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## Brolypotence (Oct 12, 2016)

This isn't even the highest raw speed feat in fiction tho


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## Juub (Oct 12, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Whis is near 100 quadrillion.


And to imagine I used to think DB was over-the-top with relativistic planet busters.


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## Brolypotence (Oct 12, 2016)

Juub said:


> And to imagine I used to think DB was over-the-top with relativistic planet busters.


And to think that people like buma. And chi chi can track these MFTL movement DBZ eyes too OP


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## Fang (Oct 12, 2016)

Brolypotence said:


> This isn't even the highest raw speed feat in fiction tho



Its one of the best in fiction without getting into time and space manipulation involved.


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## NightmareCinema (Oct 12, 2016)

Why is this still going on?

Saga gets a new pet with Genromaoken.

What's so complicated about that result?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

Fang said:


> The fact you think the OBD wikia profiles are end all to be all when it comes to a verse is also equally stupid. Keep burying yourself that way if you want to.


Then what is the point of their presence ? You never asked yourself that simple question ? The fact that I think ? Man, I didn't know that you can read the mind of people, fascinating.
You could perhaps admit that you are limited to shrieking and spitting when you are confronted with inconvenient facts.


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## Fang (Oct 12, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Then what is the point of their presence ?



Learn to read and understand they only act as rough outlines, again: they are not the end all of anything. The fact that went and is still going over your head is your problem, not mine or anyone else's



> You never asked yourself that simple question.



Why would I ask myself a retarded question to something I already know the answer to? You are trying to sound high brow but you are just coming off worse with every attempt you make at trying to make a response to me throughout the thread.



> You could perhaps even admit that you are limited to shrieking and spitting when you are confronted with inconvenient facts.



>inconvenient facts
Never happened.
>shrieking and spitting
Never happened.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

Fang said:


> Learn to read and understand they only act as rough outlines, again: they are not the end all of anything. The fact that went and is still going over your head is your problem, not mine or anyone else's
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, the denial is strong with this guy.
As far as it appear, a profile only indicate how strong a character can be, which was my original point, I didn't see any multiversal level character of SS in there, you get triggered and forgot to prove me wrong.
That is called a checkmate, since you are not even against my point lol.
Second, it's not my fault if you looks like a retard who jump into conclusion, that is why I wondered if you even know something as basic as this, and guess what ? You fail miserably.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Sablés (Oct 12, 2016)

what...does multiversal anything have to do with this thread?


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## Fang (Oct 12, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> *snip*



You keep repeating yourself ad naseum like a broken record while making things up with the awful attempt at baiting but its not working with that whole ruse cruise bullshit your trying to peddle, dudester.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

Sablés said:


> what...does multiversal anything have to do with this thread?


Nothing, just say that there is no mutiversal character in SS and someone get triggered lol.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 12, 2016)

Akira1993, you're giving the impression you're downplaying the feats all of us have mentioned about Saint Seiya and why Super Shenron would have no many chances.

Worse is... you don't have the slightest idea you're talking about Saint Seiya. You even admitted you have no knowledge about Saint Seiya.

The profiles are references, and those profiles might be updated if some new fets and calcs happen and they're widely accepted anyways.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Fang (Oct 12, 2016)

>Cronos in Episode G merged with his Dunamis is destroying all of time (past, present, and future) as mentioned by several characters and shown on panel
>Episode G Assassin states there are infinite parallel worlds and realities in different timelines and universes
>not multiversal

Fuck it, ignore list he goes.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

Fang said:


> I'm your whore.


Far from taking us forward, your self-deluded shit actually keep you anchored in the mud. Pathetic.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> Akira1993, you're giving the impression you're downplaying the feats all of us have mentioned about Saint Seiya and why Super Shenron would have no many chances.
> 
> Worse is... you don't have the slightest idea you're talking about Saint Seiya. You even admitted you have no knowledge about Saint Seiya.
> 
> The profiles are references, and those profiles might be updated if some new fets and calcs happen and they're widely accepted anyways.


No, I haven't, I just asked for clarification, and when I got what I wanted, I didn't continued any further until someone asked : " there is any multiversal character in SS ? " and I replicated by saying " Hell no ".
You call that downplaying ?


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 12, 2016)

There's ways to answer.

There may or may not be feats for it, however, you do not know of Saint Seiya, so don't confirm something you know you're not versed at. If you don't know, don't reply.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> There's ways to answer.
> 
> There may or may not be feats for it, however, you do not know of Saint Seiya, so don't confirm something you know you're not versed at. If you don't know, don't reply.


Like ? There is nothing wrong about expressing the truth.
It is difficult to proves me wrong by showing me some scans about multiversal feat ? Since I went into the profile route.
Everyone know that, unlike vsbattle forum, the profiles in the OBD are more reliable and serious ( unless I give too much credits to NF and there were shit like vsbattles after all but who know ).
If you think about the outdated route, fine, bring the scan, still 10 times better than resorting to ad hominem. ( talking about the triggered dude )


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## SF latif (Oct 12, 2016)

>posts Aries Mu Erasing pocked universe
>bring scan
>posts a scan of shaka + Shijami fight along with it`s translation
>bring scan

we`ve already posted the necessary scans needed in this thread, you`ve just ignored them thus far
so why would we post another scan if all you`r gonna do is keep ignoring them m8?

also 


Akira1993 said:


> There is nothing wrong about expressing the truth.


you`ve admitted you have zero knowlagde on saint seiya on next thread yet try to claim something as acurrate or not is just stupid man.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

SF latif said:


> >posts Aries Mu Erasing pocked universe
> >bring scan
> >posts a scan of shaka + Shijami fight along with it`s translation
> >bring scan
> ...


Multiversal, not universal.
Not zero knowledge, but a poor knowledge about episode G and next dimension, I know the rest.
Still, this is a cross verse battle, I don't need to read a whole manga when profiles are already disponible to give an idea about their strength and stats.
Since when I ignored them ? Quote me where I said *explicitly* that I ignored them just because .....


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 12, 2016)

Fang mentioned about the Dunamis.



It's in spanish, but I can gladly translate it.

"This cosmo you're talking about... in front of the gods is just a miserable strength."

Dunamis, the force of the gods (mainly Titans and Primordial gods), is considered way more powerful than Cosmo. Saint Seiya characters are considered most of times Universal (at least with the gods), but Dunamis bing considered far superior to cosmo is suggesting and aiming for gods like Chronos in Episode G that are at the very least Multiversal (and Chronos is considered a titan).

Dunamis requires to be in constant contact with nature and it is considered the opposite of the 8th sense.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SF latif (Oct 12, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Multiversal, not universal.
> Not zero knowledge, but a poor knowledge about episode G and next dimension, I know the rest.
> Still, this is a cross verse battle, I don't need to read a whole manga when profiles are already disponible to give an idea about their strength and stats.


exactly, the wikia is just giving you an idea of how powerfull they are, it`s not the end.



Akira1993 said:


> Since when I ignored them ? Quote me where I said *explicitly* that I ignored them just because .....


you ignored what has been explained to you multiple times on this thread

edited: if you want scans i can provide, if you drop that attitude of your`s bud


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## Fang (Oct 12, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> aiming for gods like Chronos in Episode G that are at the very least Multiversal (and Chronos is considered a titan).
> 
> Dunamis requires to be in constant contact with nature and it is considered the opposite of the 8th sense.



One nitpick, Dunamis is the manipulation of matter and energy. Also Chronos is the Primordial God of Time, Cronos/Kronos is the King of the Titan and Zeus dad. End of Episode G has Cronos merged and combined with his Soma, Megas Drapion, to the point that all of space-time in the past, present, and future were being destroyed by his power until he gives it up to save Aiolia and the others. He actually iirc gives his Dunamis to Hades to bring them back.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

SF latif said:


> exactly, the wikia is just giving you an idea of how powerfull they are, it`s not the end.
> 
> 
> you ignored what has been explained to you multiple times on this thread


There is a difference between ignoring and not accepting that " dimension " = " pocket universe " = " real universe " but eh.
When the dude brought the raw scans, I decided to stop since there was nothing to argue further when I saw that Shaka was actually universal level with agyo or whatever .
Did I cried by denying it ? Well, quote me then, if I did.
I know that it's not the end, but by judging by your answer, I guess *currently*, there is not a single multiversal feat yet. ( careful, I am not implying that there will be no one in the future ).


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## SF latif (Oct 12, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> by judging by your answer, I guess *currently*, there is not a single multiversal feat yet


pretty sure i sayed after editing, that i could provide the said scans, but i don`t feel like it if you`r gonna ignore them


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## Fang (Oct 12, 2016)

Its been mentioned time and time again that there's a multiverse in Saint Seiya thanks to Episode G - Assassin and already implicated by Next Dimension with Chronos the God of Time talking about different realities and worlds. Assassin shows a multiverse and parallel universes and the same fucking Cronos with absorbing his Soma, was destroying all of time and space.

Any idiot can understand this would equate to multiversal when it was going to affect not only the present but past and future as well.

And its absolutely not worth bothering anymore with him to explain it given  Akira1993's obstinate attitude.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> Fang mentioned about the Dunamis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Based on what ? Feat, portrayal or hype ?
You know that a character who is Universal + is stronger than an Universal character right ? You don't necessary need to be Multiversal level to be far superior than him.
Example, we know in Yu yu hakusho that the best feat is Country level from Sensui, but everyone know that he is nothing but an ant compared to Prime Raizen, Does everyone considered Prime Raizen to be Continental level then ?
The answer is no :  
Hype and portrayal are not enough ( though, they are useful for scaling ), what the character need is feat.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

SF latif said:


> pretty sure i sayed after editing, that i could provide the said scans, but i don`t feel like it if you`r gonna ignore them


This is astonishing, how you already know that I will eventually ignoring them ?


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## SF latif (Oct 12, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> This is astonishing, how you already know that I will eventually ignoring them ?


well you`ve been ignoring what has been repetitively been explained to you


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

SF latif said:


> well you`ve been ignoring what has been *repetitively* been explained to you


We don't even interacted that much in this thread.


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## Agent9149 (Oct 12, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Based on what ? Feat, portrayal or hype ?
> You know that a character who is Universal + is stronger than an Universal character right ? You don't necessary need to be Multiversal level to be far superior than him.
> Example, we know in Yu yu hakusho that the best feat is Country level from Sensui, but everyone know that he is nothing but an ant compared to Prime Raizen, Does everyone considered Prime Raizen to be Continental level then ?
> The answer is no :
> Hype and portrayal are not enough ( though, they are useful for scaling ), what the character need is feat.



Kronos is considered Multiversal because he was erasing all time in the Saint Seiya verse. It's based off direct feat.


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## SF latif (Oct 12, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> We don't even interacted that much in this thread.


hey, i can provide but only if you ask me nicely


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## Akira1993 (Oct 12, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> Kronos is considered Multiversal because he was erasing all time in the Saint Seiya verse. It's based off direct feat.


Ok, I will be honest with you, I don't understand how erasing all times makes you multiversal level.
Not even sure if there are any correlation between them.


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## Agent9149 (Oct 12, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Ok, I will be honest with you, I don't understand how erasing all times makes you multiversal level.
> Not even sure if there are any correlation between them.



Saint Seiya is said to have countless worlds, dimensions, universes, etc. He'd be erasing the time from all of them.


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 12, 2016)

Add to the fact the spin-offs Saint Seiya has had in any media have been approved by Masami Kurumada, reinforcing what Agent9149 just said.


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## Flashlight237 (Oct 13, 2016)

It's hard to say. As far as I'm concerned, Super Shenron might be among the most powerful Dragon Ball characters. Of course I'm only saying that because she was able to switch the bodies of Goku and Zamasu, which is crazy in on itself because Goku Black was able to outmatch SSJB Goku. Then again, we don't know the power of Goku or Zamasu before the switch. The most powerful character in the Dragon Ball franchise, however, is definitely Zeno, who has destroyed six of then-18 universes and was stated to be capable of destroying the remaining 12 if he wanted to. It's kinda strange how, even though Zeno sees Beerus and Whis as subjects, Zeno sees Goku as more along the lines of that one friend you like to hang out with.

Issue is, even Zeno wouldn't be enough, I mean when it comes to Saint Seiya characters, a Gold Saint would be... Well, add about five more Ms to MFTL and you would have their speed. Not to mention that Chronos is basically nigh-omnipotent.


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## Fang (Oct 13, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> Add to the fact the spin-offs Saint Seiya has had in any media have been approved by Masami Kurumada, reinforcing what Agent9149 just said.



That's only confirmed for Episode G and Episode G - Assassin.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> Saint Seiya is said to have countless worlds, dimensions, universes, etc. He'd be erasing the time from all of them.


Still skeptical about it, erasing the time sound like a time stop effect.
Since yesterday, I tried to find out myself but I can't find anything which was satisfying in english, let alone in french.
So can you link me directly to whatever source you have ? I bored actually so it could help killing the time.


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 13, 2016)

Thanks for the clarification once again, Fang.



Akira1993 said:


> Still skeptical about it, erasing the time sound like a time stop effect.



Erasing time and stopping time are very different concepts.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> Thanks for the clarification once again, Fang.
> 
> 
> 
> *Erasing time and stopping time are very different concepts.*


How ? Elaborate.


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## bitethedust (Oct 13, 2016)

How come erasing all time equals to stopping it? Time still exists when it's stopped, erasing it in this context would be far more potent in nature.


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## SF latif (Oct 13, 2016)

for the 10000000Times: CRONUS IS EFFECTING ALL OF TIMELINES IN SAINT SEIYA

HOW DO YOU NOT GET THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT...........m8?


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 13, 2016)

Erasing time means the concept of time no longer exists. Stopping time means the concept of time still exists, but doesn't flow until someone makes it resume.

I don't think that's hard to understand, is it? :/

Reactions: Agree 1


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## bitethedust (Oct 13, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> Erasing time means the concept of time no longer exists. Stopping time means the concept of time still exists, but doesn't flow until someone makes it resume.
> 
> I don't think that's hard to understand, is it? :/



This, so much.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> Erasing time means the concept of time no longer exists. Stopping time means the concept of time still exists, but doesn't flow until someone makes it resume.
> 
> I don't think that's hard to understand, is it? :/


It may exist but the saying " effect " doesn't exist anymore, which is the case when you erase time too.
I was talking about the finality. The end result is the same, *there is no time anymore*, as simple as that.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

SF latif said:


> for the 10000000Times: CRONUS IS EFFECTING ALL OF TIMELINES IN SAINT SEIYA
> 
> HOW DO YOU NOT GET THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT...........m8?


Erasing time = no time anymore
Stopping the time effect = no time anymore

The procedure and methods are different at their core but the result remain the same at the end. Hence why I said " sound like ".

Cronus is the God of time, isn't it ? Time manipulation is labeled as " Hax " as far as I know, so you can't quantify it like a simple DC feat.


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## SF latif (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Erasing time = no time anymore
> Stopping the time effect = no time anymore
> 
> The procedure and methods are different at their core but the result remain the same at the end. Hence why I said " sound like ".
> ...


it`s not as simple as "controlling time" he is basically Erasing all of timelines and realms from the verse

lemme explain this:

Cronus after combining with his Megas Drepanon and absorbing the essence of his Psammos Adamas (which BTW can capture all of space-time). he started destroying the multiverse: entire timelines, and realms


*Spoiler*: __ 



 "Acabei de destruir a Adamas Psammos que se encontra no labirinto de Cronos. Minha ampulheta que controla o tempo, sem ela... As horas saem de controle. O passado e o futuro, tanto daqui como da terra, se confundem... E tudo cai no mais terrivel caos..."

Translation:

"I have just destroyed the Adams Psammos which was inside the Labyrinth of Cronus. My hourglass which controls time, without it... The passing of the hours loses all control. The past and future, both of here and of Earth, are twisted... And all fall into the most terrible chaos."





*Spoiler*: __ 



 "A chama de meus braços é um indicador. Cada chama que se apaga é mais um desvio do tempo. Se não me destruirem antes de todas elas se apagaram... Tudo aqui e na terra entrara em colapso e acabara em ruínas. E isso nem Zeus poderia evitar..."

Translation:

"The flames of my arms are an indicator: With each flame that is extinguished, a further shift in time occours. If you do not destroy me before they are all gone... Then everything both here and on Earth will collapse and end in ruin. And that not even Zeus will be able to avoid."





*Spoiler*: __ 



 "O que foi? Levanta dai. Ou vai deixar a chama do tempo se extinguir? Quando essa chama se apagar, esta terra desaparacera. Olha só... Uma já se foi..."

Translation:

"What happened? Get up already. Or are you going to let the flames of time be extinguished? When this flame fades, this earth will disappear. Oh, look... One's already gone."




Tl;dr:

while fighting against Aiolia, he was slowly erasing all of timelines from existence, destroying entire universes and realms while doing so. Should all the flames of times he created to represent the destruction fade away, then that would mean that all of time has been destroyed. mind you, the verse has likely an infinite timelines, as such cronus would have to be destroying millions upon billions of timelines per-second. and this was done with his passive energy, a casuall cronus


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Erasing time = no time anymore
> Stopping the time effect = no time anymore



What?

Let's say there's a pipe with water running through it

if I block the pipe, or turn off the pressure pump or whatever, the water will stop and be essentially motionless in the pipe. This is a timestop.

This isn't remotely the same effect as removing the water from the pipe completely. This is erasing time.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

SF latif said:


> it`s not as simple as "controlling time" he is basically Erasing all of timelines and realms from the verse
> 
> lemme explain this:
> 
> ...


So basically, by erasing the timelines from existence, he erase the space itself aka the universe from existence as well, and since he does with several universes in different timelines at the same time, he is multiversal level.
That was basically what your point.
But in your translation, nothing even indicates that the event concluded, but feel like it start happening. ( Like Cell stating that he will blow up the solar system but failed to conclude his claim ).
Let suppose it actually happen.
In that case,  I can't help but to ask myself those question. How Aiola can be alive ? Is he became an entity that can exist outside of space time ? 
I am waiting your clarification and I don't mind spoilers.


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## SF latif (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> So basically, by erasing the timelines from existence, he erase the space itself aka the universe from existence as well, and since he does with several universes in different timelines at the same time, he is multiversal level.
> That was basically what your point.
> But in your translation, nothing even indicates that the event concluded, but feel like it start happening. ( Like Cell stating that he will blow up the solar system but failed to conclude his claim ).
> Let suppose it actually happen.
> ...



what?

No, that`s a Association fallacy bud. one states he gathered enough energy to destroy an entire SolarSystem, other is destroying entire universes as time passes. Cronus and aiolia were fighting in Tartarus, a realm outside of physical universes. and Aiolia was empowered by the Dunamis of other titans: whom each are Universal+ themselfs.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> What?
> 
> Let's say there's a pipe with water running through it
> 
> ...


Naw, you don't even understands what I meant. I was looking in that matter in a different perspective.
The finality is the same, ironically, even in your example.
The " End " result is the same, at the end of the day, there is no water. Only the method differ.
Same with the timestop, when you stop definitively the flow of time, the very concept of time is turned upside down, so in a sense, the effect of time is " erased ".
And time has sense thanks to his natural effect, erase this effect and it is not different that saying metaphorically that you erase time itself. ( which is true )

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

SF latif said:


> what?
> 
> No, that`s a Association fallacy bud. one states he gathered enough energy to destroy an entire SolarSystem, other is destroying entire universes as time passes. Cronus and aiolia were fighting in Tartarus, a realm outside of physical universes. and Aiolia was empowered by the Dunamis of other titans: whom each are Universal+ themselfs.


So stating what you actually posted in a fallacy ? I repeat again, nothing indicate that Cronos finish what he started, worse thing is that it seems that his feat take place *gradually* and not *immediately* since the earth is still fine ( and I will not teach you that the earth is a part of the universe, so it's good to assume that the universe itself isn't even entirely destroyed ).
To be Multiversal level, you have to destroy more than 2 universes *immediately* and not gradually and the dude is even not capable to finish the earth instantly.


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## Fang (Oct 13, 2016)

Destroying various universes with his merger of his Soma, Megas Drapion, with the power of time was indicated from the very start of Cronos' final fight. Textbook multiversal antics 101. B

Graduality or instantaneously doesn't change any of that.

This dude doesn't even know the difference between freezing time and erasing it so its arguing with a stone wall at this point.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Damn, it's like this dude can't even read. Yes, it does, it's even a basic rule in the OBD.
Someone who can destroy an Island instantly isn't the same that someone who can destroy it after several hours. Their energy output aren't the same.
Common sense.


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## SF latif (Oct 13, 2016)

except it does when you destroy an infinite amount of island. which is what cronus is trying to accoplish with his passive energy, in few minutes. pay some attention


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Oct 13, 2016)

Did we go to Cronus isn't even planet level tier downplay now?

Because if we did I'll start getting my laughing gifs ready because of how dumb that is.


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## SF latif (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> So stating what you actually posted in a fallacy ? I repeat again, nothing indicate that Cronos finish what he started, worse thing is that it seems that his feat take place *gradually* and not *immediately* since the earth is still fine ( and I will not teach you that the earth is a part of the universe, so it's good to assume that the universe itself isn't even entirely destroyed ).
> To be Multiversal level, you have to destroy more than 2 universes *immediately* and not gradually and the dude is even not capable to finish the earth instantly.



yes it`s a fallacy, as i already explained to you why. and the reason why cronus didn`t destroy all of it is because tartarus was pulling him and aiolia back. and to save aiolia he gave up his Dunamis to hades to save aiolia.


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## Fang (Oct 13, 2016)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Did we go to Cronus isn't even planet level tier downplay now?
> 
> Because if we did I'll start getting my laughing gifs ready because of how dumb that is.



Supposedly dupe kun is claiming that Cronos merged with his Soma, Megas Drapion and powered up further with his Dunamis after his memories are restored to him isn't multiversal. The same Cronos whose indicated to be destroying all of time at the end of Episode G whose fighting AIolia who has to be bolstered by the other Gold Saints in Tartarus (a separate dimension from the real universe) whose powered up on top of that with Coeus Kueranos technique, Coeus' Dunamis and Hyperion's Dunamis. He's also ignoring that we know that there are infinite parallel worlds existing at all points in Saint Seiya thanks to Episode G - Assassin.

So ignoring the fact that we know universes in other realities are being destroyed by Cronos, he's claiming he's not multiversal from what I can gather. 

Nonsensical considering two days ago he showed up and tries to act like an expert on Saint Seiya yet flipflopping on his claims to knowledge about the series. Vector Prime level nonsense in fact.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

SF latif said:


> except it does when you destroy *an infinite* amount of island. which is what cronus is trying to accoplish with his passive energy, in few minutes. pay some attention


Listen buddy, if you believe yourself into your own word, why during all our exchange you didn't even say that this Chronos is high hyperversal + or  can't be quantifiable  ? Because sorry, you keep saying that the dude destroyed *countless* and *infinite *universes and realms.
The term " infinite " and " countless ", can you even begin to understand the implication of their sense ?
Don't be a coward and say that he is high hyperversal, forget the whole multiversal downplay.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Fang said:


> Supposedly dupe kun is claiming that Cronos merged with his Soma, Megas Drapion and powered up further with his Dunamis after his memories are restored to him isn't multiversal. The same Cronos whose indicated to be destroying all of time at the end of Episode G whose fighting AIolia who has to be bolstered by the other Gold Saints in Tartarus (a separate dimension from the real universe) whose powered up on top of that with Coeus Kueranos technique, Coeus' Dunamis and Hyperion's Dunamis. He's also ignoring that we know that there are infinite parallel worlds existing at all points in Saint Seiya thanks to Episode G - Assassin.
> 
> So ignoring the fact that we know universes in other realities are being destroyed by Cronos, he's claiming he's not multiversal from what I can gather.
> 
> Nonsensical considering two days ago he showed up and *tries to act like an expert on Saint Seiya* yet flipflopping on his claims to knowledge about the series. Vector Prime level nonsense in fact.


Are you ten years old ? Seriously, lying like a kid lol.


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## SF latif (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Listen buddy, if you believe yourself into your own word, why during all our exchange you didn't even say that this Chronos is high hyperversal + or  can't be quantifiable  ? Because sorry, you keep saying that the dude destroyed *countless* and *infinite *universes and realms.
> The term " infinite " and " countless ", can you even begin to understand the implication of their sense ?
> Don't be a coward and say that he is high hyperversal, forget the whole multiversal downplay.


i`m beliving in what cronus was doing. and what`s this "high hypersal"  
destroying an infinite timelines in an instand would make you Multiversal+, but since cronus takes few minutes to destroy all of em he is multiversal. honestly, i feel like you`r not even paying attention anymore.


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## SF latif (Oct 13, 2016)

and BTW it`s cronus not Chronos 

Diffrent entities there bud


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## Agent9149 (Oct 13, 2016)

SF latif said:


> and BTW it`s cronus not Chronos
> 
> Diffrent entities there bud



I use the correct and most truest spelling, Kronos.


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## SF latif (Oct 13, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> I use the correct and most truest spelling, Kronos.


i remember when i used to mix chronos with titan cronus


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 13, 2016)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Did we go to Cronus isn't even planet level tier downplay now?
> 
> Because if we did I'll start getting my laughing gifs ready because of how dumb that is.



Please, proceed. e_e;


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## Fang (Oct 13, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> I use the correct and most truest spelling, Kronos.



Both Cronos and Kronos work when it comes to English anyway.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

SF latif said:


> i`m beliving in what cronus was doing. and what`s this "high hypersal"
> destroying an infinite timelines in an instand would make you Multiversal+, but since *cronus takes few minutes to destroy all of em* he is multiversal. honestly, i feel like you`r not even paying attention anymore.


Ok, let see.
According to you, he destroy an *infinity* of universes but it takes him few minutes to destroy *all of them*, aka an infinity of universes. ( I'm done how that makes sense ? How the hell can you destroy something that doesn't have " an end " )
Mate, I urge you to open the dictionary and see what " infinity " means, no joke and not trying to being rude.
Hyperversal means omniversal level, a level far beyond multiversal.
If you believe that cronus destroyed an infinity of universes ( again according to you ), he is omniversal + lol.


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## tivanenk (Oct 13, 2016)

Fang said:


> Supposedly dupe kun is claiming that Cronos merged with his Soma, Megas Drapion and powered up further with his Dunamis after his memories are restored to him isn't multiversal. The same Cronos whose indicated to be destroying all of time at the end of Episode G whose fighting AIolia who has to be bolstered by the other Gold Saints in Tartarus (a separate dimension from the real universe) whose powered up on top of that with Coeus Kueranos technique, Coeus' Dunamis and Hyperion's Dunamis. He's also ignoring that we know that *there are infinite parallel worlds existing at all points in Saint Seiya* thanks to Episode G - Assassin.
> 
> So ignoring the fact that we know universes in other realities are being destroyed by Cronos, he's claiming he's not multiversal from what I can gather.
> 
> Nonsensical considering two days ago he showed up and tries to act like an expert on Saint Seiya yet flipflopping on his claims to knowledge about the series. Vector Prime level nonsense in fact.



Not quite... at least, not yet. The most the author has used so far is "countless" and "many", but "infinite" or "endless".


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## Fang (Oct 13, 2016)

tivanenk said:


> Not quite... at least, not yet. The most the author has used so far is "countless" and "many", but "infinite" or "endless".



Countless; synonyms 

- Endless
- Immeasurable
- Myriad
- Uncountable 
- Untold
- Inumerable
- Inumerous 
- Limitless


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## SF latif (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Ok, let see.
> According to you, he destroy an *infinity* of universes but it takes him few minutes to destroy *all of them*, aka an infinity of universes. ( I'm done how that makes sense ? )
> Mate, I urge you to open the dictionary and see what " infinity " means, no joke and not trying to being rude.
> Hyperversal means omniversal level, a level far beyond multiversal.
> If you believe that cronus destroyed an infinity of universes ( again according to you ), he is omniversal + lol.


i use "infinite" to describe the quantity of timelines there are in verse, not too hard to understand. we know this since, in ND chronos`s dimension, which holds all of the timlines there is, were described as "endless" like universe. and no being able to destroy an infinite amount of universes isn`t remotely close to "Hyperversal", i advice you read a blog of what`s the requirement for it. iirc In OBD there is no term such as "hyperversal" so moot point is moot.


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## tivanenk (Oct 13, 2016)

Well, they didn't specifically use the term "mugen", but I guess it's just semantics. I believe in an infinite amount of timelines for SS too.


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## Fang (Oct 13, 2016)

If by timelines you mean parallel worlds and universes, then sure.


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## tivanenk (Oct 13, 2016)

Yes. I mean exactly that. Anyways, Kronos is multiversal. Period. Don't even know why the guy is continuing.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

SF latif said:


> i use "infinite" to describe the quantity of timelines there are in verse, not too hard to understand. we know this since, in ND chronos`s dimension, which holds all of the timlines there is, were described as "endless" like universe. and no being able to destroy an infinite amount of universes isn`t remotely close to "Hyperversal", i advice you read a blog of what`s the requirement for it. iirc In OBD there is no term such as "hyperversal" so moot point is moot.


Are you serious right now ? You dodge my question like that ?
Dude, answer that nonsense for me,  how can you destroy something that doesn't have an end *in few minutes* ?
That defy even the common sense smh.
Hyperversal is used in vsbattle but they don't use omniversal, in the OBD, it is the opposite, conclusion that I have drawn, this two terms are synonymous, I can't be wrong since they doesn't even exist in the thesaurus lol.


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## SF latif (Oct 13, 2016)

just like how people in fiction creates an universe and or destroy them


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

SF latif said:


> just like how people in fiction creates an universe and or destroy them


Concession accepted, thanks, I can sleep now.


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## SF latif (Oct 13, 2016)

what ever makes you sleep at night m8


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## Agent9149 (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Are you serious right now ? You dodge my question like that ?
> Dude, answer that nonsense for me,  how can you destroy something that doesn't have an end *in few minutes* ?
> That defy even the common sense smh.
> Hyperversal is used in vsbattle but they don't use omniversal, in the OBD, it is the opposite, conclusion that I have drawn, this two terms are synonymous, I can't be wrong since they doesn't even exist in the thesaurus lol.



That is actual possible. You can remove parts of an infinite set step by step and be left with nothing at the end of a set. You don't have to do instantly or in one go.

For example:

In a set of infinite positive whole numbers, you can remove all even numbers and be left with an infinite set of odd numbers. Then remove all composite numbers from that remaining set and you will be left with an infinite set of prime numbers. Then move all prime numbers and you will be left with nothing.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Naw, you don't even understands what I meant. I was looking in that matter in a different perspective.
> The finality is the same, ironically, even in your example.
> The " End " result is the same, at the end of the day, there is no water. Only the method differ.
> Same with the timestop, when you stop definitively the flow of time, the very concept of time is turned upside down, so in a sense, the effect of time is " erased ".
> And time has sense thanks to his natural effect, erase this effect and it is not different that saying metaphorically that you erase time itself. ( which is true )



this level of twisting and reaching is unprecedented

No, you're wrong, erasing time and stopping time are not the same thing, stopping the flow in a pipe and removing the water from a pipe are not the same thing. End of story.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> this level of twisting and reaching is unprecedented
> 
> No, you're wrong, erasing time and stopping time are not the same thing, stopping the flow in a pipe and removing the water from a pipe are not the same thing. End of story.


That wasn't even what I was arguing for lol, dude, I am aware of that, that is not my point.
You focus only on a single perspective ( the obvious one ) yet ignoring that there is other viewpoints which are also true on the matter.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

SF latif said:


> what ever makes you sleep at night m8


I can't tell if you are sarcastic or you are actually trying to be nice   .


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> You focus only on a single perspective ( the obvious one ) yet ignoring that there is other viewpoints which are also true on the matter.



what the fuck is this 

you don't get to muck around with "well my interpretation could be true" shit

we're not talking about narrative themes

we're not even talking about power levels of calcs

all things in which your *opinion* might hold weight

we're talking about the "mechanics" of time in fiction, your opinion is irrelevant, what IS relevant is your ability to argue your point and you have so far failed to do that.

Explain to me how "no time" = "still time"

you can't, you fucking can't.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> what the fuck is this
> 
> you don't get to muck around with "well my interpretation could be true" shit
> 
> ...


You are brandishing irrelevant things as a smoke screen to hide my viewpoint.
So far, you are just saying that I am wrong just because .....
I give my view of the " mechanics " of time being disrupted forever in both case, I said the finality was the same.
Your answer against that : " Your opinion is irrelevant " Ooh awesome.
I explained how "no time" = " not time "
You erase the concept of time itself, conclusion, we don't have time anymore
You stop the mechanic of time itself, conclusion, we don't have time anymore
You cut the water, conclusion, we don't have water anymore ( sad reality )
You block the flow of the water, making it motionless like a thrombus in the blood, conclusion, we don't have water anymore ( sad reality )
I can't explain my viewpoint better than this honestly, keep ignoring the reality.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> You are brandishing irrelevant things as a smoke screen to hide my viewpoint.
> So far, you are just saying that I am wrong just because .....
> I give my view of the " mechanics " of time being disrupted forever in both case, I said the finality was the same.
> Your answer against that : " Your opinion is irrelevant " Ooh awesome.
> ...



except *you can turn the water back on later* if the flow is just stopped 

your opinions makes literally no sense

we're talking about time as a DIMENSION, not time as a relative human experience

jesus christ dude


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## Fang (Oct 13, 2016)

Stopping water from flowing out of a pipe or hose is something I can do if I put my weight and foot down one part of it to prevent the nozzle from outputting anymore water.

If I cut the water supply to an entire house so it has no water, the result might both be "no water" to use out of the hose but the application how its stopped is completely different. Doesn't matter how much a person turns the switch on or off, water isn't coming unlike the prior scenario.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> except *you can turn the water back on later* if the flow is just stopped
> 
> your opinions makes literally no sense
> 
> ...


The first one is irreversible, the second one is reversible, true, I don't deny it. ( talking about the water stuff lol )
My opinions ( on the matter ) are the common sense itself.
Ok, teacher, explain the difference between time as a dimension ( didn't know that there was a correlation between time and dimension now, you learn something every day ) and time as I experiment ? And don't forget to elaborate for me, you know, I am a student after all.


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## Fang (Oct 13, 2016)

Time is the 4th dimension

That's elementary shit


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Sound like : " I can't proves it *concretely* so.....Believe it "

Me :


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## Fang (Oct 13, 2016)

So where's the evidence it isn't?


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Depends on what you hear about dimension ? Damn, for me, talking about time is more " philosophic " than " scientific ".
Wonder who share with me that view here ?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Fang (Oct 13, 2016)

So where's the evidence it isn't?


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Déjà vu.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Fang (Oct 13, 2016)

So no evidence then? Neat. Well I mean besides the baseless assertions you pushed which are founded purely on subjective lines rather then academic or scholarly/scientific ones and you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

"Time isn't a dimension".

lol


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## Jackk (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Depends on what you hear about dimension ? Damn, for me, talking about time is more " philosophic " than " scientific ".
> Wonder who share with me that view here ?



Your other dupe


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> The first one is irreversible, the second one is reversible, true, I don't deny it. ( talking about the water stuff lol )
> My opinions ( on the matter ) are the common sense itself.
> Ok, teacher, explain the difference between time as a dimension ( didn't know that there was a correlation between time and dimension now, you learn something every day ) and time as I experiment ? And don't forget to elaborate for me, you know, I am a student after all.



Okay, think of it like this, time can be described as both a dimension and a relative experience.

If you erase time then there is no time any more, unless someone brings it back it's gone forever. This is talking about time as a dimension, time has physically ceased to exist.

On the other hand if you just stop time then what you're doing is essentially halting the subjective experience of the forward flow of time.

These are not the same things.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Fang said:


> So no evidence then? Neat. Well I mean besides the baseless assertions you pushed which are founded purely on subjective lines rather then academic or scholarly/scientific ones and you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> "Time isn't a dimension".
> 
> lol



Are you dyslexic ? I told you : " it depend on what you hear about dimension "
Dimension of what ?
Baseless assertions ? So far in that matter, I only asked *questions*, dyslexia confirmed lol
Note that I haven't even said : " time isn't a dimension " lol, you shot yourself.


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## Fang (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Are you dyslexic ? I told you : " it depend on what you hear about dimension "
> Dimension of what ?
> Baseless assertions ? So far in that matter, I only asked *questions*, dyslexia confirmed lol



Why are you calling me dyslexic when you write like you are ESL and contradict half your previous posts to shitpost and troll in this thread?

You asserted TIME isn't a dimension.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Jackk said:


> Your other dupe


What do you mean ? It's clear as day that I am original mate.


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## Agent9149 (Oct 13, 2016)

Lord Jeez. This whole thread has turned into muk


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Fang said:


> Why are you calling me dyslexic when you write like you are ESL and contradict half your previous posts to shitpost and troll in this thread?
> 
> *You asserted TIME isn't a dimension.*


Inside your mind, but not in the reality lol.
Wake up, you can't interpret simple words therefore you clearly have sign of dyslexia.
I contradict myself now, dude, you are not tired to say inanities ? I guess not sigh.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2016)

Is this whole multiversal aspect relevent to the discussion?


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## Fang (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Inside your mind, but not in the reality lol.
> Wake up, you can't interpret simple words therefore you clearly have sign of dyslexia.
> I contradict myself now, dude, you are not tired to say inanities ? I guess not sigh.





Sorry I don't speak ESL, run that through a translator again.


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## Fang (Oct 13, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> Is this whole multiversal aspect relevent to the discussion?



Yes and no. Gold Saints like Saga and Shaka can already beat Super Shenron regardless of Cronos/Kronos being multiversal which the sequel series after G in G Assassin proves him to be with him destroying all of time but its not a necessary tangent.


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## Blocky (Oct 13, 2016)

Man, This dupe over here man.

You need to stop digging the hole man.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> Okay, think of it like this, time can be described as both a dimension and a relative experience.
> 
> If you erase time then there is no time any more, unless someone brings it back it's gone forever. This is talking about time as a dimension, time has physically ceased to exist.
> 
> ...


I am aware that the procedure differ my dear friend, alright, I will give you another ( more scientific ) example this time.
I'm a doctor, and I have two patients, one has a condition know as " chronic bronchitis " which is an inflammation of the lining of your bronchial tubes.
The second patient has emphysema, in which the air sacs ( alveoli ) are gradually destroyed.
At first look, both patient has different conditions which are characterized by their underlying pathological mechanism.
Basically, you, you stopped there by saying " there are not the same "
True, yes, there are not the same, I never say otherwise, but, Emphysema and chronic bronchitis are the most common conditions that make up COPD. ( very well know respiratory disorder )
That the finality, the point that they have in common ( that is how I looked it ).
Come back to time, same thing, when time has physically ceased to exist and the subjective experience of the forward flow of time ceased, the conclusion remain the same for who experiment it, there is no time ( he is only not aware on the subtle behind that conclusion ).
That " subtle ", I reassure you, I understands it and I don't deny it.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Fang said:


> Sorry I don't speak ESL, run that through a translator again.


Sorry, I should remind myself that you can't read.
Although, you use high-sounding words to hide your dyslexia, which is admirable, I will give you that at least.


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## Lux Seraph (Oct 13, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Sorry, I should remind myself that you can't read.
> Although, you use high-sounding words to hide your dyslexia, which is admirable, I will give you that at least.



Calling someone dyslexic while completely failing English grammar. I saw you edit remind in place of remembered. "high-sounding" lol.
Please continue and don't stop.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Lux Seraph said:


> Calling someone dyslexic while completely failing English grammar. I saw you edit remind in place of remembered. "high-sounding" lol.
> Please continue and don't stop.


Lol, you saw what ? Never heard about metaphor ?
I even wonder if you know the meaning of that word and the reason I used it lol.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Tfw argumentum ad personam started. At least, when I reread this page lol.


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 13, 2016)

Well, you still keep finding excuses to not believe when EVERYONE has already mentioned you valid points.

You're trollin', right? At this point it can't be anything else but that. z_z Or should I say, attempting in trolling.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> Well, you still keep finding excuses to not believe when EVERYONE has already mentioned you valid points.
> 
> You're trollin', right? At this point it can't be anything else but that. z_z


To not believe what ? Tell me.
Quote me when I ignored someone who mentioned *a valid point*.


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## Sablés (Oct 13, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> Is this whole multiversal aspect relevent to the discussion?


It is, in fact,  not relevant at all

None of the characters necessary for this thread stretches beyond universal


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 13, 2016)

We've been 4 pages (I think) mentioning why erasing time and stopping time are different events. Stop doesn't mean cease to exist.

Or tell me, stop and erase are the same thing? Both words are self-explanatory and both were easy to understand. You're the only one who's finding this too complicated to understand.



Sablés said:


> It is, in fact,  not relevant at all
> 
> None of the characters necessary for this thread stretches beyond universal



Dunno, the scans most people have showned are indicating the possibility of Saint Seiya being multiversal (albeit low end, though).


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Sablés said:


> It is, in fact,  not relevant at all
> 
> None of the characters necessary for this thread stretches beyond universal


Thanks God, I honestly though that I was the only one who think like that.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## bitethedust (Oct 13, 2016)

Why is this thread not locked yet?


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## Akira1993 (Oct 13, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> We've been 4 pages (I think) mentioning why erasing time and stopping time are different events. Stop doesn't mean cease to exist.
> 
> Or tell me, stop and erase are the same thing? Both words are self-explanatory and both were easy to understand. You're the only one who's finding this too complicated to understand.
> 
> ...


Time itself is something abstract, I don't even argued about " stop means ceasing to exist ".
It's like you don't even try anymore, I explicitly stated that when I gave the medical example.
Listen, let's agree to disagree.
At this point, this is a logorrhea and not a discussion.


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## Sablés (Oct 13, 2016)

Alchemist of Atlas said:


> Dunno, the scans most people have showned are indicating the possibility of Saint Seiya being multiversal (albeit low end,



That is not what I said

Unless you think Kronos is necessary for Shenron


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## Alchemist of Atlas (Oct 13, 2016)

Sablés said:


> That is not what I said
> 
> Unless you think Kronos is necessary for Shenron



Where did you get that idea? :|


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2016)

bigdumdragon.png

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Fang (Oct 14, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Sorry, I should remind myself that you can't read.
> Although, you use high-sounding words to hide your dyslexia, which is admirable, I will give you that at least.





Akira1993 said:


> Lol, you saw what ? Never heard about metaphor ?
> I even wonder if you know the meaning of that word and the reason I used it lol.





Akira1993 said:


> Tfw argumentum ad personam started. At least, when I reread this page lol.





Akira1993 said:


> To not believe what ? Tell me.
> Quote me when I ignored someone who mentioned *a valid point*.





Akira1993 said:


> Thanks God, I honestly though that I was the only one who think like that.





Akira1993 said:


> Time itself is something abstract, I don't even argued about " stop means ceasing to exist ".
> It's like you don't even try anymore, I explicitly stated that when I gave the medical example.
> Listen, let's agree to disagree.
> At this point, this is a logorrhea and not a discussion.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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