# Deidara vs Itachi



## Turrin (May 4, 2015)

I make this thread because I Grim and I were discussing if anyone still believes Deidara can push Itachi to High-Extreme Diff. So let's put it to the test in a few matches.

Match 1:

Distance: 25m
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: to Kill, but IC
Restrictions: Itachi is at the same health and eye-sight as he was at the start of the Hebi-Sasuke battle

Match 2:

Distance: 25m
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: to Kill, but IC
Restrictions: Itachi is Edo, Deidara has Seal Tags

Who wins, and please list the Difficulty


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## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

Itachi wins both low difficulty 
In IC once Deidara gets in the air and out of range of itachi non Ms Jutsu itachi will use amaterasu in either scenario 
Or YM. Amaterasu is the better option though

Now before I hear it's not IC Kakashi in beginning of part 2 used kamui despite not being good at it because like he said he needed an attack capable of reaching deidara 

Ama and YM are itachi only options so he will use either and win


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## Alex Payne (May 4, 2015)

Itachi who is actually trying to kill his opponent and being in a shitty condition that isn't suited for a prolonged fighting would most likely go all out right from the start and crush Deidara like a bug. Aggressive opening with shuriken-spam/shunshin blitz + crazy bunshin feint is already borderline too much for Deidara. Itachi following this up with Ama/low Susano form with Magatama is 100% gg. I guess you can label it as mid diff due to MS strain and relative chakra costs. You'd need *very* skewed conditions for Deidara to push Itachi up to high/extreme diff imo.


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## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

@alex bar restricting itachi to sharingan it can never be above low diff for itachi 

Not when kishi gave him all the tools to win 

All 3 Ms JUtsu one shot deidara with zero effort 

Would be neg diff if not for the strain


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## Alex Payne (May 4, 2015)

Sick Itachi using Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi is already above low difficulty for him due to his condition. The word is difficulty. Not risk.


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## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

Even sick he only need use it once which won't kill him or hurt him 
Considering he used it twice in the manga 
Used tskuyomi and susanoo 

But yh mostly semantics 

Deidara can't win without help


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## Ghost (May 4, 2015)

Pretty sure Itachi would go for the kill immediately since he is in a poor condition and knows of Deidara's abilities. 25 meter starting distance is not enough for Deidara to escape from Itachi. Uchiha prodigy closes the distance immediately and murders Deidara.

Itachi low diff. He might even open with Amaterasu which is makes the fight last for 3 seconds.


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## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

Deidara can't escape itachi

The starting distance doesn't matter 

Amaterasu works on whatever he sets his eyes on


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## Alex Payne (May 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Deidara can't escape itachi


With KBs, Doton and flying? He can. Not in this match though. Not consistently at least.


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## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

Itachi got Kb. Doton itachi can see chakra underground and dig him out with susanoo 

Flying makes him a laughable target


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## Alex Payne (May 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Doton itachi can see chakra underground and dig him out with susanoo


 Just like he saw Kakashi, right?


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## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

Just like sasuke saw Deidara C2 bombs right 
 

Or wait like how both sasuke and itachi saw kabuto in the cave when he spread out and hid behind rocks 



Also itachi did see Kakashi. It was the speed of execution of his Jutsu that prevented itachi from seeing it was a clone . 

This was explained in the manga . Then again not everyone reads the panels . Looking at them is more fun


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## Alex Payne (May 4, 2015)

Yeah, through thin rocks. And mines - things that are extremely close to the surface.

Sharingan is not Byakugan. It can't see chakra if the target is too deep or hides behind a thick obstacle.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 4, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Itachi who is actually trying to kill his opponent and being in a shitty condition that isn't suited for a prolonged fighting would most likely go all out right from the start and crush Deidara like a bug. Aggressive opening with shuriken-spam/shunshin blitz + crazy bunshin feint is already borderline too much for Deidara. Itachi following this up with Ama/low Susano form with Magatama is 100% gg. I guess you can label it as mid diff due to MS strain and relative chakra costs. You'd need *very* skewed conditions for Deidara to push Itachi up to high/extreme diff imo.



I more or less agree with this.

Itachi ends this very quickly, but if you'r going to picky about difficulty, probably making Itachi use MS would have to amount to some form of difficulty on paper at least. But from a narrative stand point, won't look like it was difficult @ all.


Make the circumstances more neutral, like 5 - 8 - 10 meter starting distance, and Itachi'd probably have an easier time. 

Make it start from 3 meters and indoors, like it was in the manga, and Deidara gets a 2 paneled.


edit : I think the conditions should be heavily stacked in Deidara's favor for to be a real challange. Deidara starting in air, from 40 meters, having full knowledge, Itachi having none, no t rees around, mines prepped etc.



Alex Payne said:


> Yeah, through thin rocks. And mines - things that are extremely close to the surface.
> 
> Sharingan is not Byakugan. It can't see chakra if the target is too deep or hides behind a thick obstacle.



Sasuke & Itachi were able to see Kabuto's snakes behind stalagmites. 

Although you have to consciously activate the chakra vision for detection. 
The reason why Shouten Itachi missed Kakashi @ first is probably because the bunshin feint was pulled on the fly behind an obstruction(gokakyu) and he wasn't actively searching for an underground target.


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## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

@alex any reason Deidara would go too deep 
Any proof he can even go that deep ?

No it's not byakugan . However anywayz as far as the match is concerned it's not balanced


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## Trojan (May 4, 2015)

It hurts me to say this, but Genjutsu GG. 
as for the difficulty, it's a stomp.


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## desertraider669 (May 4, 2015)

As much as i love Deidara, itachi wins both low-mid diff. One eye immune to genjutsu just isn't enough, thats all deidara has going for him. Under Itachis Genjutsu or even his speed, Deidara won't get a chance to open up C4. Also i double Itachi can be tricked like Sasuke by a clone. Deidara flying? Hmmm, itachi has firestyle and Amaterasu and (again) genjutsu, i don't see hoe Deidara could win either way. Edo itachi is even more op..


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## Ashi (May 4, 2015)

desertraider669 said:


> As much as i love Deidara, itachi wins both low-mid diff. One eye immune to genjutsu just isn't enough, thats all deidara has going for him. Under Itachis Genjutsu or even his speed, Deidara won't get a chance to open up C4. Also i double Itachi can be tricked like Sasuke by a clone. Deidara flying? Hmmm, itachi has firestyle and Amaterasu and (again) genjutsu, i don't see hoe Deidara could win either way. Edo itachi is even more op..



If Deidara is out of range I don't see him getting Amaterasu'd


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## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

and what is amaterasu range?
it cast on whatever the user focuses on 

deidara very directly compared it to kakashi kamui after it trolled him 

so deidara being out of range of what itachi can see is unlikely


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## Trojan (May 4, 2015)

> and what is amaterasu range?



0-5 meters



> deidara very directly compared it to kakashi kamui after it trolled him



IIRC he compared Kakashi's skills to itachi. Nothing about the Amatersu since obviously itachi did not even use
that against him.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 0-5 meters



Bullshit. When Amaterasu was used on Sasuke while Itachi's eyesight and condition were horrible, that was far more than 5 meters.

Even Hachibi was more than 5 meters away from Sasuke


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## Dr. White (May 5, 2015)

Blitz + Ama and or Susano Projectiles = GG.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Bullshit. When Amaterasu was used on Sasuke while Itachi's eyesight and condition were horrible, that was far more than 5 meters.
> 
> Even Hachibi was more than 5 meters away from Sasuke



you can believe whatever you want my dear, that's what Kishi said. 

Also, Sasuke is superior to itachi with amatersu, and that's manga fact. Just because he can do it
(assuming it's more than 5) does not make an inferior user being able to accomplish the same feat.


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## StickaStick (May 5, 2015)

Itachi wins both scenarios with minimal difficulty. If these fights actually took place in canon I have no doubt that would be the result given how Deidara was basically tossed aside like trash in the canon in order to hype up Itachi v. Sasuke and Itachi in particular.


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## UchihaX28 (May 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> you can believe whatever you want my dear, that's what Kishi said.
> 
> Also, Sasuke is superior to itachi with amatersu, and that's manga fact. Just because he can do it
> (assuming it's more than 5) does not make an inferior user being able to accomplish the same feat.



 Except feats contradicted this. You failed to refute his example with Itachi which makes your post inaccurate.

 Sasuke was only considered superior to Itachi due to Enton Kagutsuchi which gave him the ability to manipulate the flames, something Itachi could not. That doesn't refute the point that the flames focuses on what the target is seeing and seeing as Deidara cannot get out of range, Amaterasu easily hits Deidara.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2015)

Ever heard of gravity? 

- and that changes the fact that he is superior, how?



> Amaterasu easily hits Deidara.



show me an example of the Amatetsu hiting a target in the sky. 

- Not as if that matters, everyone knows deep down that it's a fodder jutsu anyway. Even if it hits Deidara, it would only be a clone as we have seen when Sasuke tried to use his chidori on him.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2015)

here
Rasenshuriken
anyone who knows what a gravity is would know that the Amatersu won't just be stopping midair. That's just so foolish.


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## Icegaze (May 5, 2015)

Budda is 0-5 meters to hussain
So unless u saying kyuubi who is 100 m tall is really only in fact 1m tall u don't have a point 
U never do


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## Bonly (May 5, 2015)

Itachi wins more times then not. Sasuke using the CS lvl 2 was able to come out of a huge explosion pretty fine and then CS lvl 2 Sasuke was able to survive yet another huge explosion with only a wing being blown off. Itachi should be fine and be able to protect himself from C1-C3 and he'll be able to see the AoE of C4 just like Sasuke so he'll likely avoid it. Itachi should be able to trip Deidara or land a hit on Deidara in the sky eventually to bring him down and finish him off so unless Deidara uses C0, he's not likely to take Itachi down here.


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## RedChidori (May 5, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Itachi wins more times then not. Sasuke using the CS lvl 2 was able to come out of a huge explosion pretty fine and then CS lvl 2 Sasuke was able to survive yet another huge explosion with only a wing being blown off. Itachi should be fine and be able to protect himself from C1-C3 and he'll be able to see the AoE of C4 just like Sasuke so he'll likely avoid it. Itachi should be able to trip Deidara or land a hit on Deidara in the sky eventually to bring him down and finish him off so unless Deidara uses C0, he's not likely to take Itachi down here.



I agree with my man Bonly .


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## UchihaX28 (May 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Ever heard of gravity?
> 
> - and that changes the fact that he is superior, how?



 Yes I have and I don't see how that refutes any of our points.

 Because, Sasuke's only considered superior due to being able to manipulate the flames, not for his range of Amaterasu.





> show me an example of the Amatetsu hiting a target in the sky.



 Show me a scan that proves Amaterasu's acceleration is less than gravity's opposing acceleration. Your logic just doesn't work because if it did, then Gaara's sand would collapse the moment that Gaara aimed it at Deidara, however, it does not. This is because Gaara constantly amps chakra in order to control and propel it forward. Likewise, Itachi also does the same and that's clear when his Amaterasu cancels out due to lack of chakra input (whenever the MS strain is overwhelming). There's no reason why Amaterasu cannot travel upward and there's quite frankly nothing that implies it can't. 

 And technically, Sasuke aimed Amaterasu at the Hachibi's head who is many many many times larger than Sasuke is, so that is a clear example of what you're asking for.

 Edit: Your next post confuses me. Why would it matter if gravity causes Amaterasu to accelerate downward when Amaterasu is capable of reaching Deidara in the first place? If it does latch onto Deidara, then clearly Amaterasu will travel with the target, so gravity wouldn't affect the outcome.



> - Not as if that matters, everyone knows deep down that it's a fodder jutsu anyway. Even if it hits Deidara, it would only be a clone as we have seen when Sasuke tried to use his chidori on him.



 Same as how Deidara managed to Bushin feint out of Sasuke's Shuriken? 

 Oh wait ....


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

lol hussain at his best
dont get rilled up people 
even amaterasu if we are to say is a fodder jutsu will still kill deidara who is even more fodder compared to it

of course the likes of the kid can just fart it away so its all good


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## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Budda is 0-5 meters to hussain
> So unless u saying kyuubi who is 100 m tall is really only in fact 1m tall u don't have a point
> U never do



No, the Buddha is 0-10 meters. It's not to me, it's a manga fact and what Kishi said. 
It is not about how tall the Buddha is, it's about the range of it's punches. 

anyway, you can send your objections to Kishi. I am only stating the facts that he wrote. I can't change it.

@NarutoX28

Gaara's attacks work on all ranges. The Amatersu is a short range jutsu. End of discussion. It was short on the 2nd data book, and it's short on the 3rd.
Sasuke however is superior to itachi and managed to make it this a mid range jutsu


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

considering it size and the length of its arm
and how tall kyuubi is compared to each arm 

its quite obviously above 10m

but then again like i said it means minato hirashin level 2 is restricted to 0-5m 

guess he a weakling cuz he cant throw a kunai at more than 5m. can you teach him to throw further please


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## TheGreen1 (May 6, 2015)

It already happened in Canon. I don't see Deidara winning here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 6, 2015)

@ Turrin 

See bro ? No one here overestimates Deidara. Look @ the poll and the answers. Not one person claimed he'd push Itachi to extreme dif, in a scenario where the distance especially favors him. And only 4 people said its high dif, probably due to the taxing effects of MS on Sick Itachi. Rest called a stomp.

I think most people would place Deidara @ Mid Akatsuki level, aka potential threat to Sannin(Jiraiya & Oro, murders Tsunade due ot match up) but no quite as strong as them overall.


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## Nikushimi (May 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Match 1:
> 
> Distance: 25m
> Knowledge: Manga
> ...



Itachi can comfortably dodge C1 and C2; Susano'o blocks everything else.

Using Amaterasu to torch Deidara out of the sky would be Itachi's best option; if Deidara somehow escapes without getting touched by the flames (maybe he burrows through his clay bird safely and jumps ship...idk), then Itachi finishes him in free-fall with an immediate follow-up Amaterasu.

If Deidara keeps out of range of Amaterasu, Magatama could still reach, but he could probably dodge them from such a distance. Itachi can also summon crows to fly to Deidara's altitude and manifest as a clone to attack him directly; if that doesn't work, then it's a stalemate until Deidara lands, retreats, or blows himself up (Itachi survives that with Susano'o as well).

I would classify that between low and high difficulty, for Itachi, depending on how many of these options he is forced to run through before the match concludes. Instant Amaterasu-snipe, Magatama-snipe, or crow clone takedown after dodging some C1/C2 would be low difficulty; Amaterasu-snipe, Magatama-snipe, or crow clone takedown after dodging C1/C2 and having to block C3/C4 with Susano'o would be moderate. Amaterasu failing, Magatama missing, and the crow clone attack failing, and then having to endure an indefinite standoff, until Deidara forfeits or suicide bombs, would be high difficulty.



> Match 2:
> 
> Distance: 25m
> Knowledge: Manga
> ...



Edo Itachi Amaterasu-spams Deidara out of the sky right at match start with no difficulty.


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

@niku not a bad idea at all 
Summoning crows which would then manifest to attack deidara 

It's certainly something he can do. That's how crow clones are made 

Good one . I'll rep you. So it's even worse for Deidara . Who would have no reason to be blowing up crows 

Only for him to realize that an itachi clone has just been formed behind him 

*if this works then itachi wins neg difficulty. As he wont even need MS. *

Also i don't tbink deidara can avoid YM

It isn't huped for its speed but the distance it covers this is true . Howveer Madara did indicate it isn't completely impossible to alter their direction with sharingan 

Something I believe Itachi could be capable of . Consideirnf how even genin Sasuke could control shrikuen with wires 

Not crazy for itachi to control his own chakra shiruken with his sharingan 

Just a thought . I doubt it's his strongest long range simply Cuz it travels far


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## Nikushimi (May 6, 2015)

What if Itachi could win with just crows? Send a few up to where Deidara is, then shove one right down his throat and choke him to death. 

Best kill in NBD history.


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

lol u making fun of my theory on yasaka mangmata?

 thats a weird reaction 

in any case. OP needs to balance the match up. 

any and all MS techniques mean death to deidara. And i do mean any and all MS jutsu ever shown in the manga


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## Garcher (May 6, 2015)

Itachi vs Deidara happened CANON

fuck the Itachi downplayers


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## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2015)

Aikuro said:


> Itachi vs Deidara happened CANON
> 
> fuck the Itachi downplayers



 Yes it did, against a featless young Deidara who wasn't airborne, did not have massive guided explosives, or C4 for that matter.

 Deidara can already counter Itachi's basic genjutsu as shown against Sasuke, but Itachi is still overall the better fighter even if he's Sick.


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## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> considering it size and the length of its arm
> and how tall kyuubi is compared to each arm
> 
> its quite obviously above 10m
> ...



- As I said, you can send your objections to Kishi. I don't write the manga, nor do I decide those things. 

- FTG itself is all ranges, however Minato needs to have a direct contract to actually attack with the Rassengan. So, yeah, the attack itself is a short-range attack.
Needless to say, I don't see how brining irrelevant attack helps your case.


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

ok hussain 
you sound hurt though


hope i havent done it again. its short range if you want it to be. or worse its gone no range. does that make you feel better. i hope it does


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## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

Why would I be hurt? 

anyway, your incoherent response does not matter to me. The Data book is in front of you.
I honestly could care-less what you want to believe or not since this section is supposedly 
about the arguments based on canon, not fan-fiction. 

I will make sure to use your fantasies when I visit fan-fiction next time. Thanks.


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## Garcher (May 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Deidara can already counter Itachi's basic genjutsu as shown against Sasuke, but Itachi is still overall the better fighter even if he's Sick.



He can block Sasuke's

why Itachi's? Because Sasuke brouk out of a genjutsu of a dying, trying to loose on purpose Itachi?


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## Pocalypse (May 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yes it did, against a featless young Deidara who wasn't airborne, did not have massive guided explosives, or C4 for that matter.
> 
> Deidara can already counter Itachi's basic genjutsu as shown against Sasuke, but Itachi is still overall the better fighter even if he's Sick.



Itachi is more efficient at normal Sharingan Genjutsu than Sasuke is as Itachi has a bigger variety with clones and catching opponents with clone Genjutsu. If Itachi can catch young Deidara in an instant Genjutsu then he'll just exert more effort to catch him in another Genjutsu. 

Even with Genjutsu aside, Itachi has a much better arsenal to beat Deidara.


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## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2015)

Aikuro said:


> He can block Sasuke's
> 
> why Itachi's? Because Sasuke brouk out of a genjutsu of a dying, trying to loose on purpose Itachi?



 Key word is basic.

 My point was, using that battle as a means to prove your point is meaningless as Deidara is far weaker than what he showcased against Itachi as well as the fact that he can perceive Itachi's basic genjutsu. Sasuke being unable to trap Deidara into a genjutsu without Deidara even perceiving it for the majority of the fight implies Itachi's not going to dominate with just Sharingan genjutsu.

 But as I said before, Sick Itachi still wins as he still has a variety of techniques such as bushin feints, Yasaka Magatama, Amaterasu, Tsukyomi, etc. which all can be used to destroy Deidara as well as high enough speed to force Deidara into using even more clay to demolish Itachi which simply means Itachi has the potential to outlast Deidara as well.



			
				Pocalypse said:
			
		

> Itachi is more efficient at normal Sharingan Genjutsu than Sasuke is as Itachi has a bigger variety with clones and catching opponents with clone Genjutsu. If Itachi can catch young Deidara in an instant Genjutsu then he'll just exert more effort to catch him in another Genjutsu.
> 
> Even with Genjutsu aside, Itachi has a much better arsenal to beat Deidara.



 That's something you're going to have to prove. Itachi being more efficient with normal Sharingan Genjutsu has never been implied. Actually, there are countless pieces of evidence that suggests the opposite.

Sharingans

 Itachi admits Sasuke sustains the ability to perceive and counter his Sharingan Genjutsu (considering the context of the fight) in which Itachi responds with Sasuke requiring the MS to compete with him and that's clearly in genjutsu as that was Itachi's primary form of attack at the beginning of the match.

Sharingans

 It's clear that from what Deidara had said, Itachi's level of genjutsu was comparable to Sasuke's and outright states that he's equal to Itachi. So basically, he's able to use the same type of Sharingan genjutsu as Sasuke and was compared to him as equal to Itachi in that regard. 

Sharingans
Sharingans

 Self-explanatory. Sasuke managed to use the same type of Sharingan genjutsu and compared it to Itachi, stating how the situation was similar and even after that, it was shown that Sasuke's Sharingan genjutsu managed to overpower Orochimaru's ritual which logic would dictate that Orochimaru would have an advantage in his dimension as Sasuke would also need to provide extra resistance in order to overcome it. That's superior than what Itachi has done considering Orochimaru could still move one of his hands after Itachi's genjutsu.

Sharingans

 Sasuke's will managed to erode the entire dimension and that indicates a stronger mental state of mind which would increase the power of his genjutsu.

Sharingans

 Itachi pisses himself at how Sasuke countered Tsukyomi despite admitting they were rivals in Sharingan genjutsu prior to this. So really, as Itachi underestimated Sasuke's ability to use genjutsu, it seems clear that Sasuke's Sharingan Genjutsu surpassed Itachi's own Sharingan Genjutsu. 

Sharingans

 Just to prove how badass Sasuke is. 

Sharingans

 And finally, there's this. I do realize that Sasuke utilized the Mangekyo for this and not his basic Sharingan, the whole panel was to indicate that Sasuke's Genjutsu rivals Itachi's regardless of them both using the MS and it's really Itachi's Tsukyomi that alters the perception of time that indicates Itachi's superiority in offensively using genjutsu compared to Sasuke.

 But I agree with the rest. Itachi has shown to be superior in bushin feints as shown against Hebi Sasuke, Killer Bee, and SM Kabuto, so he is superior to Deidara in that regard. But really, Itachi exerting more effort in using another genjutsu is unlikely considering Deidara has adapted to recognizing Sharingan genjutsu and if he does happen to notice another disturbance, then it's pretty fuckin' clear that Deidara will perceive Itachi's genjutsu and so thus, would make it wasteful. The only person Itachi has managed to do that on was Post-Timeskip Naruto and that's quite frankly because he failed to perceive Itachi's genjutsu in time. Since this isn't a problem for Deidara, there's no reason to assume Deidara would be susceptible to another Sharingan genjutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Key word is basic.
> 
> My point was, using that battle as a means to prove your point is meaningless as Deidara is far weaker than what he showcased against Itachi as well as the fact that he can perceive Itachi's basic genjutsu. Sasuke being unable to trap Deidara into a genjutsu without Deidara even perceiving it for the majority of the fight implies Itachi's not going to dominate with just Sharingan genjutsu.
> 
> ...



You forgot one tiny detail.
Itachi was holding back.


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## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2015)

^ Give such a statement that implies Itachi held back with Tsukyomi and then maybe I will be convinced. 

 But really, that post alone doesn't refute my point as I provided multiple examples outside of Itachi's fight with Hebi Sasuke.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 6, 2015)

Itachi's feat against Bee is more than enough to say he's a much better Genjutsu user than Sasuke overall.


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## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2015)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Itachi's feat against Bee is more than enough to say he's a much better Genjutsu user than Sasuke overall.



 That has more to do with Itachi's ability to use Genjutsu to his advantage. Even then, Bee doesn't have the ability to recognize and perceive genjutsu and has shown no skill countering genjutsu. All Bee does is resort to the Hachibi to break him out.

 In terms of the strength of their genjutsu, I truly do believe the strength of Hebi Sasuke's Sharingan Genjutsu was at least on par with Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu when both are used offensively.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 6, 2015)

Well that's what efficient means. Compared to Sasuke's Bee fight. 

I don't think Sharingan Genjutsu has much power difference between users anyway, the only 2 outliers are Tsukuyomi and Koto.


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## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2015)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Well that's what efficient means. Compared to Sasuke's Bee fight.



 Sure, but Sasuke wasn't attempting to use subtle Genjutsu as he wanted to test his capabilities with the Mangekyo and wanted to immobilize his body.

 Managing to get Danzo who has a Sharingan, experience and knowledge of Sharinan genjutsu and even perceived his MS genjutsu, to even become a victim of Sasuke's own genjutsu is far more impressive than managing to use it against somebody who has very little ability of perceiving a genjutsu instantly.



> I don't think Sharingan Genjutsu has much power difference between users anyway, the only 2 outliers are Tsukuyomi and Koto.



 Fair enough.


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## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

Power of genjutsu has to do with timing and how it's used 
Both of which Sasuke pales in comparison to itachi 

Eg: using crows or finger genjufsu 

Makes Itachi and much bigger genjursu threat than sasuke whose genjufsu is more straihht forward 

So far once the person knows they are in genjufsu and it's not a power based genjutsu they can break out 


So there is one used to deceive in which itachi will be better because he is smarter and the better user 

Power based genjutsu itachi is better thanks to tskuyomi


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## UchihaX28 (May 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Power of genjutsu has to do with timing and how it's used
> Both of which Sasuke pales in comparison to itachi
> 
> Eg: using crows or finger genjufsu



 That at all isn't what strength of genjutsu is. Power of Genjutsu is what simply what it implies, the user's strength using genjutsu and what you described was their ability/ skill in using genjutsu to their advantage.

 Those techniques shows Itachi's versatility in genjutsu as they aren't exactly "traditional" Sharingan genjutsu which makes it far more difficult to detect which was shown against Hebi Sasuke. Finger genjutsu is clearly an easy way to use genjutsu without anyone perceiving it in time as no one would ever suspect genjutsu being used solely by someone's finger movements.

 But timing and how it's used certainly play a role in the success of a genjutsu, but not really the strength of the user's genjutsu. A clear example is with this statement made by Obito during Sasuke and Danzo's fight: 

_Sakura reading into his attack patterns and predetermining the direction of his attacks._

 As you can see, Obito admits Sasuke's genjutsu is rather weak, but conveys the idea that Sasuke's ability to use it and his timing was what allowed it to be successful. From what Obito stated, strength of genjutsu doesn't correlate with the timing of genjutsu.


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## Trojan (May 7, 2015)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Itachi's feat against Bee is more than enough to say he's a much better Genjutsu user than Sasuke overall.



I agree that itachi was a better genjutsu user, but how does that that battle prove anything?
B broke both of their Genjutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 7, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ Give such a statement that implies Itachi held back with Tsukyomi and then maybe I will be convinced.


Itachi held back with everything, as Obito stated.

And the notion that Itachi actually trying to kill or incapacitate Sasuke with Tsukiyomi or any other technique contradicts Itachi's intentions and Obito's words. 

And most importantly, Sasuke breaking Itachi's Tsukiyomi(even if we assume it is legit) doesn't mean he is a better genjutsu user. 



> But really, that post alone doesn't refute my point as I provided multiple examples outside of Itachi's fight with Hebi Sasuke.



I don't see how those examples prove that Sasuke is comparable to Itachi in genjutsu, let alone better than him.

I think the whole thing was settled when Danzo compared Sasuke'S MS genjtusu to Itachi's Tsukiyomi and said Sasuke was as far below him as the land is below the sky.


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## Trojan (May 7, 2015)

Obito did not even watch the battle. 
his word is hardly credible enough. Also, I don't remember him saying "with everything" either.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Obito did not even watch the battle.
> his word is hardly credible enough. Also, I don't remember him saying "with everything" either.



He watched the battle, Zetsu recorded it. _standing on the ground_
You gotta read the friggin manga bro.

He also didn't have to say "everthing", because he didn't single out anything. Sasuke said "I came close to dying a dozens of timess" and Tobi said "had Itachi been serious, we wouldn't be making this conversation." 
Sasuke also said "he used MS to kill me" and we got a panel of Tsukiyomi & Amaterasu and Tobi replied "you played your part as he predicted.. he had a reason to push you to the edge."

It only makes sense that Itachi was holding back in general, because you know he didn't want to kill Sasuke


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## StickaStick (May 8, 2015)

What exactly does Itachi have to gain by "letting" Sasuke avoid being hit by Tsukuyomi though? Paralyzing him and manipulating his thoughts to achieve his goals would have been infinitely smarter then the low-percentage, convoluted plan that we're lead to believe by some that he actually went with instead. But I don't believe Itachi is that ridiculous which is why it makes infintely more sense that Sasuke avoided being hit by Tsukuyomi by his own volition, supported by BZ's dialogue and what we would latter learn about Sasuke's eyes.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2015)

Hebi-Sasuke's Three-Tome Genjutsu and Genjutsu breaking abilities were superior to Itachi's because he's hopped up on Orochimaru's Chakra and Senjutsu from CS. However Itachi is the more experience and intelligent fighter. That's why we get Sasuke turning his back on B after hitting him with a binding Genjutsu and taking a Lariate, while Itachi follows up with slicing Orochimaru's hand off right after using a binding Genjutsu against him. It has always been a Raw-Power vs Skill thing with Itachi vs Sasuke. Until Sasuke's Raw-Power simply dwarfed Itachi's w/ EMS and Sharinngan, to the point where Itachi's skill could not make up the difference anymore.


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## Sadgoob (May 8, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> What exactly does Itachi have to gain by "letting" Sasuke avoid being hit by Tsukuyomi though? Paralyzing him and manipulating his thoughts to achieve his goals would have been infinitely smarter then



Tsukuyomi isn't Kotoamatsukami. Itachi may be able to manually puppet ninja with Tsukuyomi, but he can't implant thoughts that the person believes to be their own for the rest of their life.​


StickaStick said:


> But I don't believe Itachi is that ridiculous which is why it makes infintely more sense that Sasuke avoided being hit by Tsukuyomi by his own volition.



This is directly stated to not be the case after the battle. Obito literally said that Itachi planned every step of that fight in order to trick Sasuke into thinking he truly defeated Itachi.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 8, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Hebi-Sasuke's Three-Tome Genjutsu and Genjutsu breaking abilities were superior to Itachi's because he's hopped up on Orochimaru's Chakra and Senjutsu from CS.



This is actually pure speculation.



StickaStick said:


> What exactly does Itachi have to gain by "letting" Sasuke avoid being hit by Tsukuyomi though?



The whole goal of that fight is to make Sasuke think he defeated Itachi fair and square. Ko'ing Sasuke with Tsukiyomi(or anything else for that matter) defies that goal.

And no, Tsukiyomi isn't capable of doing what you'r suggesting.


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## StickaStick (May 8, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Tsukuyomi isn't Kotoamatsukami. Itachi may be able to manually puppet ninja with Tsukuyomi, *but he can't implant thoughts that the person believes to be their own for the rest of their life*.​


Of course he can. That's precisely what Tsukuyomi allows--if it works. In fact, whether we believe Sasuke avoided being hit by his volition or not, Itachi _did _create imagines in Sasuke's head (e.g., ripping his eye-ball out, etc.). Nothing was stopping Itachi from continuing down this line. One could even imagine a scenario where Sasuke never avoided being hit by Tsukuyomi and the whole fight til the end where Itachi died from exhaustion as Sasuke's feet was all in Sasuke's head. A ninja of Itachi's caliber could have pulled this off easily had be been allowed to.




> This is directly stated to not be the case after the battle. Obito literally said that Itachi planned every step of that fight in order to trick Sasuke into thinking he truly defeated Itachi.​


And how would Obito know this exactly? He did know Itachi was throwing the fight, but to what detail is impossible to say (unless you're suggesting Obito/BZ are mind-readers now). What we can say is Obito was hell bent of pulling at Sasuke's emotional strings and winning him to his side. It also wouldn't be the only fabrication he made in his speech to Sasuke (e.g., the Kyuubi attack on Konaha). 

Again, consider that BZ, who should know what most anyone worth their salt is capable of more than anyone, did not find it strange that Sasuke could avoid being hit by Itachi's Tsukuyomi. BZ commented multiple times throughout the fight on things he found strange (e.g., Itachi's stamina, the coughing of blood, etc.) but _this _was not one of them. That is damning evidence to me. And then what we find out about Sasuke's eyes after the fact is icing on the cake, so to speak.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The whole goal of that fight is to make Sasuke think he defeated Itachi fair and square. Ko'ing Sasuke with Tsukiyomi(or anything else for that matter) defies that goal.


Not really. He just needed Sasuke to _think _he defeated Itachi fair and square (which BTW failed anyway because Obito immediately afterwards spilled the beans to Sasuke concerning the fact that Itachi was throwing the fight. How Itachi hadn't considered this high possibility is beyond me). Tsukuyomi would have accomplished this much easier.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 8, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Not really. He just needed Sasuke to _think _he defeated Itachi fair and square (which BTW failed anyway because Obito immediately afterwards spilled the beans to Sasuke concerning the fact that Itachi was throwing the fight.


But Itachi wanted to extract Orochimaru and give him MS. 
If he somehow made it look like he was somehow defeated and killed(not sure how that is possible), then he wouldn't be able to accomplish those goals.



> How Itachi hadn't considered this high possibility is beyond me). Tsukuyomi would have accomplished this much easier.



How can Tsukiyomi accomplish that ? Sasuke'd know he had been hit with Tsukiyomi.
Also I am pretty sure if such thing was within Itachi's capability, he'd consider it.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> This is actually pure speculation.


Really you think Senjutus/Oro Chakra isn't a huge power boost?


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## UchihaX28 (May 9, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Hebi-Sasuke's Three-Tome Genjutsu and Genjutsu breaking abilities * were superior to Itachi's * because he's hopped up on Orochimaru's Chakra and Senjutsu from CS.



 This is what he's referring to Turrin.

 @Stickastick

 Tsukyomi doesn't cause paralysis or manipulate one's though process. What it does do is inflict immense pain through psychological trauma and altering the person's perception of time. The example you presented does not display that. All it displays is Itachi playing on Sasuke's fear and alters the perception of time to make the process of losing Sasuke's eyes longer than it actually would be with just normal genjutsu to inflict severe pain, but that never implied Itachi was manipulating Sasuke the way Kotoamatsukami does. Deceive him, yes, though that's the purpose of all genjutsu really, but not manipulate him.


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## Pocalypse (May 9, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That's something you're going to have to prove. Itachi being more efficient with normal Sharingan Genjutsu has never been implied. Actually, there are countless pieces of evidence that suggests the opposite.
> 
> Sasuke backing down like he was pushed back by something
> 
> ...



Most of these points are moot as Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke so using the Sasuke vs Itachi battle isn't really relevant. Itachi was not being serious, his aim was trying to test Sasuke's powers but other than that it was nothing else which had a meaning to Itachi's true arsenal. Which was witnessed after he was Edo's by the way. 

Sasuke had to resort to MS Genjutsu against Bee which failed while Itachi was able to catch Bee in a regular Sharingan Genjutsu, not to mention that Naruto even said to Bee that if Bee gets caught in Itachi's Tsukiyomi, it's all over. And these are the guys who have Bijuus inside of them where Naruto also was in RS mode. 

You prolly won't like this but then there's Ao mentioning that Itachi is the only one who can control people through Genjutsu over a large and wide range. That has to mean something...then of course there's the crow Genjutsu and finger Genjutsu which trumps over Sasuke's own Sharingan Genjutsu.


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## UchihaX28 (May 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No.



 Yes.




> Again no.



 Again yes.




> No.



 Yes.



> Again no.



 Again yes.




> Not really.



 I am convinced despite the fact that during those times, Itachi showed he no knowledge on most of these things. 

 1

 Keep in mind that the clash with Bee emphasized how rare it is for one to be able to channel Raiton through a weapon, even if you're a high level ninja.

 1

 Didn't expect the Cursed Seal involvement during their genjutsu clash. Itachi literally attempted to overpower Sasuke with Tsukyomi in that scenario as well as he literally played off Sasuke's fears and attempted to deal psychological trauma.

* Edit: Oh fuck, I forgot to present more examples, but I derped hard. I'll go edit this post again later. *



> Re-read the manga.



 I honestly did and you could honestly see Itachi's shocked expressions. Black Zetsu admitted that Itachi was unable to react and dodge attacks he should have with ease and Obito himself stated that "he held back," based on what Zetsu had recorded from the match. At no instant did Black Zetsu admit that Itachi held back with Tsukyomi even though Black Zetsu clearly could tell what was going on as Sasuke battled against Tsukyomi.



> Itachi put him in a coma with Tsukiyomi in the hotel. Sasuke got KO'd.
> He survived ? Maybe he fucking survived because Itachi wasn't trying to kill him ?
> How many times does the author have to tell you that Itachi valued Sasuke's life more than his own or the villages ?
> I guess 121371273 times isn't enough.



 1

 Yeah, Itachi forced Sasuke to relive the worst memory of his life. That's certainly holding back?

 1

 If Itachi really held back there, then there'd be no need in telling Itachi to refrain from using the Mangekyo.

 1

 Read the bottom-right panel. I will partially concede to this if you can somehow legitimately prove that Itachi was lying here.



> The length of the genjutsu is Tsukiyomi's true strength, as stated and shown.
> 
> Tell me, what is easier to endure ? Getting stabbed for 10 minutes or 3 days ? And all of that happens within an instant. No other genjutsu, save Koto Amatsukami, can accomplish anything in an "instant."



 It's the idea that one has to endure psychological trauma for what is an extended period of time in only a matter of seconds. Now, the length of the genjutsu certainly impacts the toll it has on one's body as the affected person is experiencing constant fatigue, however, that's not what Tsukyomi does. What it does do is condenses, for example, a day of torture in only a matter of seconds. That's what makes it so special, but the genjutsu itself is actually extremely short.

 1

 Kakashi even confirms it.

 You can argue that that means Itachi held back against Sasuke as he endured psychological trauma for only 24 hours, but that in itself doesn't imply that Tsukyomi was any weaker, just that the affect it would have on the user would be even more painful.

 But really, you failed to refute Obito's statement in which he stated that Sasuke uses a weak genjutsu that doesn't last long. That implies they are two separate things. Don't confuse the two.



> Zetsu made no indication that Itachi was holding back ever.
> Zetsu had no idea about Itachi's intentions, he just thought Itachi fought as if he was severely wounded before the fight. In otherwords, Zetsu thought Itachi massively underperformed, but he had no clue why. He was guessing that he was wounded or some shit.



 Yes, if that were the case, then Black Zetsu would have confirmed that Itachi underperformed with his genjutsu yet there is no such thing that suggests that.



> Again, you have to re-read the manga.



 I have been, multiple times.



> There is nothing to refute as your examples don't prove anything
> You've posted severel manga pages from the manga we've all read and added your own interpretation.



 So, in other words, you concede.




> Again, I absolutely have no idea how you arrived to that conclusion.
> 
> What makes Tsukiyomi powerful is Itachi's capability of altering the time to his will.
> As I stated above, tsukiyomi's strength directly comes from its length.



 Already disproven. Tsukyomi is not a long genjutsu, not even.



> In that sense, how can their power be roughly equal ? Tsukiyomi KO's its target within an instant.



 Because it plays with the most severe psychological trauma that someone had endured and alter the user's perception of time. It's in that way that the affects are more severe, but the overall strength may likely be the same. I wouldn't doubt that Tsukyomi is overall stronger, but I don't necessarily see it being a massive gap. Of course, the only thing that I do see that does suggest that Tsukyomi is indeed stronger is when Itachi used it on Sasuke during his battle with Kabuto though that could mean something else as well, but that's evidence that you can certainly use to oppose my argument.



> Even if you discard what I said, where does it remotely imply that their genjutsu is "roughly equal" in strength ?



 Itachi outright states it, Zetsu claims they are equal prior to Itachi using Tsukyomi.




> Itachi is much more skilled in genjutsu, that is clear cut.



 I never denied it. 



> I am simply wondering where you got the evidence  for the latter, that sasuke's genjutsu has more power ?
> 
> Was this implied in the manga @ any point  ? If so, where ?(not talking about your own personal interpretation).



 Sasuke broke through Tsukyomi.

 Your argument relies on, "Itachi held back during the fight, therefore he held back with Tsukyomi, herp derp." But really now? Even if that was the case, why would Itachi's Tsukyomi used on Sasuke be reduced to the level of any other genjutsu Itachi could use? That makes no sense and Zetsu and Sasuke would certainly have suspected something if that were the case.

 So literally, at minimum, it has to be

 Itachi's Tsukyomi (Full Power) >> Itachi's Tsukyomi (used on Hebi Sasuke) >> Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu.

 That's the most logical thing that satisfies your argument. Reducing Itachi's Tsukyomi used on Sasuke to the level of being on par or even below Itachi's usual Sharingan Genjutsu is just plain silly.





> In regards to genjutsu ? Not really no.
> 
> Also Itachi has tier 5 genjutsu whereas Sasuke has tier 4 in Databook 3. And Sasuke doesn't have more impressive feats than Itachi with 3 tomoe genjutsu anyway, so I am not sure what you base that on.



 Itachi has Tsukyomi and is more versatile which easily sets them apart, but their overall * Sharingan * genjutsu's strength is the same. 



> I think Itachi making Deidara blow himself up with his own technique is the peak of what sharingan genjutsu can achieve. That was the pinnacle of deception.



 Deidara claims his genjutsu usage is the same as Sasuke's and never admits Sasuke's genjutsu was inferior. In both instances presented in my previous posts, both Orochimaru and Deidara admitted that Sasuke used similar genjutsu to Itachi. Itachi making Deidara believe to have committed suicide is a terrible example as Deidara at the time had no means of dealing with Sharingan genjutsu or knowledge of the Sharingan being capable of genjutsu for that matter. 

 Honestly, Sasuke deceiving Danzo or a superior Deidara is a superior feat than what you presented, the latter actually being applicable to this argument as Sasuke was fatigued and used his 3 Tomoe Sharingan.


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## Bloo (May 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Really you think Senjutus/Oro Chakra isn't a huge power boost?


For ninjutsu and taijutsu. I don't see it affecting dojutsu whatsoever seeing as how it's unrelated. Feel free to provide a panel of that happening though.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yes.


no.



> Again yes.


no.



> Yes.


no.



> Again yes.


no.
Forgive me for cutting out these parts but since none of them are supported by the manga and some outright contradicted, there is no need to waste both of our time.



> I am convinced despite the fact that during those times, Itachi showed he no knowledge on most of these things.
> 
> 1
> 
> ...


Link removed
Manga outright contradicts your interpretation.
Sasuke played his part exactly as Itachi planned.



> Didn't expect the Cursed Seal involvement during their genjutsu clash. Itachi literally attempted to overpower Sasuke with Tsukyomi in that scenario as well as he literally played off Sasuke's fears and attempted to deal psychological trauma.


Itachi wasn't trying to overpower Sasuke @ any point in the fight.
Link removed
Had Itachi been serious, Sasuke'd be dead.



> I honestly did and you could honestly see Itachi's shocked expressions.


He was acting.


> Black Zetsu admitted that Itachi was unable to react and dodge attacks he should have with ease and Obito himself stated that "he held back," based on what Zetsu had recorded from the match.


Because Obito knew about Itachi's intentions.
Black Zetsu didn't. Black Zetsu thought Itachi underperformed because : Link removed
he thought Itachi was badly wounded.

Obito later on explained that Itachi was fatally ill, and was holding back.
Thats why I suggest you should re-read the manga.



> ]At no instant did Black Zetsu admit that Itachi held back with Tsukyomi even though Black Zetsu clearly could tell what was going on as Sasuke battled against Tsukyomi.


Because Zetsu can't see into the genjutsu. He saw Itachi use tsukiyomi and then Sasuke got up. Zetsu thought Sasuke broke it, and he thought Sasuke was more skilled than Itachi.
Given the context of the fight, and Zetsu having no knowledge about it, his words can't be taken @ face value. 



> Link removed
> 
> Yeah, Itachi forced Sasuke to relive the worst memory of his life. That's certainly holding back?


He could have physically hurt him on top of that or could have made him go through it for longer periods of time. He made Sasuke suffer for only 24 hours.

Kakashi confirmed that Itachi could have killed him with Tsukiyomi, and there is no doubt that Kakashi is more resistant against Tsukiyomi than 12 year old Sasuke is.



> Link removed
> 
> If Itachi really held back there, then there'd be no need in telling Itachi to refrain from using the Mangekyo.


Irrelevant.



> Link removed
> 
> Read the bottom-right panel. I will partially concede to this if you can somehow legitimately prove that Itachi was lying here.


Irrelevant to our discussion.




> It's the idea that one has to endure psychological trauma for what is an extended period of time in only a matter of seconds. Now, the length of the genjutsu certainly impacts the toll it has on one's body as the affected person is experiencing constant fatigue, however, that's not what Tsukyomi does. What it does do is condenses, for example, a day of torture in only a matter of seconds. That's what makes it so special, but the genjutsu itself is actually extremely short.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> Kakashi even confirms it.


You basically confirmed what I said.
Tsukiyomi lasts for an instant, but the victim goes through days of torture. 
If Tsukiyomi experience lasted real time, like an instant, then it would be utterly redundant.


> You can argue that that means Itachi held back against Sasuke as he endured psychological trauma for only 24 hours, but that in itself doesn't imply that Tsukyomi was any weaker, just that the affect it would have on the user would be even more painful.


So you'r saying that it'd be the same if Sasuke suffered for 3 days ?  24 = 72 hours ? 
No.



> But really, you failed to refute Obito's statement in which he stated that Sasuke uses a weak genjutsu that doesn't last long. That implies they are two separate things. Don't confuse the two.


There is nothing to refute. Sasuke's MS genjutsu is nothing compared to Itachi's. Both Danzo and Obito confirmed it.



> Yes, if that were the case, then Black Zetsu would have confirmed that Itachi underperformed with his genjutsu yet there is no such thing that suggests that.


There is no way Zetsu can know about it, because he can't see into genjutsu. There is no way he can measure the quality of Itach's genjutsu.




> So, in other words, you concede.


You don't have an argument that I can concede. Sorry.




> Already disproven. Tsukyomi is not a long genjutsu, not even.


It lasts 3 days. It is potentially the longest genjutusu there is.




> > Because it plays with the most severe psychological trauma that someone had endured and alter the user's perception of time. It's in that way that the affects are more severe, but the overall strength may likely be the same. I wouldn't doubt that Tsukyomi is overall stronger, but I don't necessarily see it being a massive gap. Of course, the only thing that I do see that does suggest that Tsukyomi is indeed stronger is when Itachi used it on Sasuke during his battle with Kabuto though that could mean something else as well, but that's evidence that you can certainly use to oppose my argument.


Itachi has complete control over Tsukiyomi, space and time. 
In that regard, Itachi can dictate how strong Tsukiyomi can be.
Kakashi was tied up and was being stabbed by tens of swords @ the same time. 
Itachi never used such cruel means against Sasuke.
In fact, in their skirmish, Itachi's Tsukiyomi was basically a reflection of reality. Sasuke wasn't faced up against anything he couldn't endure.



> Itachi outright states it, Zetsu claims they are equal prior to Itachi using Tsukyomi.


When did Itachi state it ?



> Sasuke broke through Tsukyomi.


He broke it when Itachi was going easy on him.


> Your argument relies on, "Itachi held back during the fight, therefore he held back with Tsukyomi, herp derp." But really now? Even if that was the case, why would Itachi's Tsukyomi used on Sasuke be reduced to the level of any other genjutsu Itachi could use? That makes no sense and Zetsu and Sasuke would certainly have suspected something if that were the case.
> 
> So literally, at minimum, it has to be
> 
> ...


Breaking genjutsu = / = being equal with the one casting it. 

We know that Sasuke's MS genjutsu is fuckloads weaker than Itachi's tsukiyomi.
How can Sasuke be as good as Itachi with genjutsu simply by breaking Itachi's Tsukiyomi with his 3 tomoe ? If his MS genjutsu is weaker ?
Makes no sense.



> Itachi has Tsukyomi and is more versatile which easily sets them apart, but their overall * Sharingan * *genjutsu's strength is the same.*


Evidence ? 



> Deidara claims his genjutsu usage is the same as Sasuke's and never admits Sasuke's genjutsu was inferior. In both instances presented in my previous posts, both Orochimaru and Deidara admitted that Sasuke used similar genjutsu to Itachi. Itachi making Deidara believe to have committed suicide is a terrible example as Deidara at the time had no means of dealing with Sharingan genjutsu or knowledge of the Sharingan being capable of genjutsu for that matter.



Absence of evidence is not evidence.
You'r basically saying that "no one said Sasuke's genjutsu is weaker, so it should be just as powerful or even more powerful."


How do you explain Sasuke having tier 4 genjutsu and Itachi having tier 5 in the databook ? 
Are we to neglect a whole tier difference ? 



> Honestly, Sasuke deceiving Danzo or a superior Deidara is a superior feat than what you presented, the latter actually being applicable to this argument as Sasuke was fatigued and used his 3 Tomoe Sharingan.


Sasuke wasn't able to decieve Deidara, he thought he did.

Also making someone kill themselves with their own technique is alot more impressive than anything anyone has ever done with genjutsu. It is pretty unique.

And no, Sasuke used MS genjutsu, there is even a close up shot here : Link removed


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## Alex Payne (May 10, 2015)




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## Pocalypse (May 10, 2015)

Bloo said:


> For ninjutsu and taijutsu. I don't see it affecting dojutsu whatsoever seeing as how it's unrelated. Feel free to provide a panel of that happening though.



Senjutsu must boost Genjutsu skills too, this was shown with Tayuya when Kabuto casted the Genjutsu otherwise there's no way in hell normal Tayuya Genjutsu can catch both Sasuke and Itachi in a Genjutsu at the same time.


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## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


>



 Nice way to ignore the context of the statement.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 10, 2015)

What about this, within context ?


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## Alex Payne (May 10, 2015)

Except Sasuke himself recalled his words prior Obito's comment. Said comment is obviously about Itachi's whole life and plan. But the main point is - Sasuke was completely oblivious. To *everything*. Kishimoto played around this whole illusions/genjutsu and deceit. Sasuke was bragging. Zetsu bought into it. Turns out - Sasuke didn't see a single thing with his eyes. Both genjutsu and Itachi's act. Kishi later even went out to bash Sasuke's MS genjutsu and hyped Itachi's.


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## Turrin (May 10, 2015)

Bloo said:


> For ninjutsu and taijutsu. I don't see it affecting dojutsu whatsoever seeing as how it's unrelated. Feel free to provide a panel of that happening though.


Fukasaku literally says Senjutsu ehances Genjutsu and so does the DB. Like wise having stronger Orochi chakra probably helps with the strength of illusions as well.

Otherwise are you telling me Base Tayuya's Genjutsu > Itachi


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## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What about this, within context ?



 He planned the need to overpower Sasuke with Tsukyomi to push him to his limits. Itachi realized and planned ahead of time that Sharingan Genjutsu could not counter Sasuke's own Sharingan genjutsu.

 Thanks for supporting my argument.


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## StickaStick (May 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But Itachi wanted to extract Orochimaru and give him MS.
> If he somehow made it look like he was somehow defeated and killed(not sure how that is possible), then he wouldn't be able to accomplish those goals.


He could have extracted Oro while Sasuke was knocked out. 

Also IIRC Sasuke unlocked MS after finding out the truth about Itachi. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe one of Itachi's stated goals was providing Sasuke with MS. Hard to see how he would have done this since it was the truth that awoke MS in Sasuke's eyes.

Edit: Here's the link: [1]

Edit 2: Just saw what you're talking about. Unfortunately it literally makes no sense since before Sasuke knew the truth the requisites for unlocking MS would not have been met. Sasuke despised Itachi and initially freaked out at Obito over learning the truth so I chalk it up to Obito continuing to pull away at Sasuke's heart strings (which not too surprising _would _help lead to Sasuke awakening MS). 



> How can Tsukiyomi accomplish that ? Sasuke'd know he had been hit with Tsukiyomi.


Why does he have to know he was hit? Itachi could have created the illusion that it was more-or-less a real fight.



> Also I am pretty sure if such thing was within Itachi's capability, he'd consider it.


Well, that's kinda my point. He did.


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## ShadoLord (May 10, 2015)

Tsukuyomi, amaterasu, susanoo, GG.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 10, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> He could have extracted Oro while Sasuke was knocked out.


How ? Oro can't come out unless Sasuke is completely out of chakra. 
Also when Sasuke wakes up, what would he think happened ? "Oh I passed out during mid fight and now Orochimaru is gone and Itachi dead. I'm glad everything resolved by itself."



> Also IIRC Sasuke unlocked MS after finding out the truth about Itachi.


Thats a common misconception, such thing didn't happen.



> Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe one of Itachi's stated goals was providing Sasuke with MS. Hard to see how he would have done this since it was the truth that awoke MS in Sasuke's eyes.


Sure, I'll correct you : "He was trying to give you more power."
"to make sure he'd be able to give you a new power."
Do you need more scans or 2 of them are enough ? 



> Edit: Here's the link: [1]


Thats the first time Sasuke used them, it doesn't mean he activated them @ that moment. 



> Edit 2: Just saw what you're talking about. Unfortunately it literally makes no sense since before Sasuke knew the truth the requisites for unlocking MS would not have been met. Sasuke despised Itachi and initially freaked out at Obito over learning the truth so I chalk it up to Obito continuing to pull away at Sasuke's heart strings (which not too surprising _would _help lead to Sasuke awakening MS).


It makes perfect Sense, despite Sasuke hating Itachi, he was the closest bond or one of the closest ones he ever had.

Also the scans I provided pretty much clear everything out. I don't think this is open to debate or interpretation. Pretty clear cut.



> Why does he have to know he was hit? Itachi could have created the illusion that it was more-or-less a real fight.


Sharingan can see through visual genjutsu. Also Tsukiyomi can't brainwash someon anyways. 
Like I said, Itachi'd consider if that was a possibility. You'r trying to argue a moot point.



> Well, that's kinda my point. He did.


What do you mean ? 



NarutoX28 said:


> He planned the need to overpower Sasuke with Tsukyomi to push him to his limits. Itachi realized and planned ahead of time that Sharingan Genjutsu could not counter Sasuke's own Sharingan genjutsu.
> 
> Thanks for supporting my argument.



This scan actually outright contradicts your argument. You argued that Itachi underestimated Sasuke and was forced into using his stronger moves. 

Scan says Itachi planned out every single detail. Which also means he planned the Tsukiyomi bit too. 
Why would he hit Sasuke with his hardest if his intention was to die by Sasuke's hand ? Its self contradictory. It also contradicts with Obito's words. "Had Itachi been serious, we wouldn't be making this conversation."


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## Bloo (May 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Fukasaku literally says Senjutsu ehances Genjutsu and so does the DB. Like wise having stronger Orochi chakra probably helps with the strength of illusions as well.
> 
> Otherwise are you telling me Base Tayuya's Genjutsu > Itachi


Genjutsu. Not dojutsu genjutsu, those are entirely different things. Please pay attention to detail.

Also, that last comment is so tired and short-sighted.


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## StickaStick (May 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How ? Oro can't come out unless Sasuke is completely out of chakra.


You're telling me Itachi can't exhaust Sasuke's chakra after he's been knocked out? 



> Also when Sasuke wakes up, what would he think happened ? "Oh I passed out during mid fight and now Orochimaru is gone and Itachi dead. I'm glad everything resolved by itself."


Remember Itachi is controlling the illusion. He could have conceivably created the same fight in Sasuke's head that actually happened, with Itachi dying at Sasuke's feet after Sasuke had himself been completely exhausted. Keep in mind there are numerous ways this could have gone down, but because Sasuke avoided being hit none of them ever could have came to fruition. 



> Sure, I'll correct you : "He was trying to give you more power."
> "to make sure he'd be able to give you a new power."
> Do you need more scans or 2 of them are enough ?


Because Obito's never lied before (or in this case stretched the truth)  Because he didn't already flat out lie in that same speech to Sasuke (i.e., Kyuubi fight) 



> Thats the first time Sasuke used them, it doesn't mean he activated them @ that moment.


You can support this with...?



> It makes perfect Sense, despite Sasuke hating Itachi, he was the closest bond or one of the closest ones he ever had.
> 
> Also the scans I provided pretty much clear everything out. I don't think this is open to debate or interpretation. Pretty clear cut.


This is a complete stretch. Again, Sasuke despised Itachi and freaked out at Obito when he told him the truth. The awakening of MS is triggered by the emotional response of said person's death, not the permanent ending of a former bond.

Sasuke's response right here is literally the same one we get each time MS in unlocked (tears and shit).  



> Sharingan can see through visual genjutsu.


Sure, but Tsukuyomi is not an ordinary genjutsu.



> Also Tsukiyomi can't brainwash someon anyways.


Who said anything about brainwashing? I'm not making Tsukuyomi out to be like it's Koto. What I'm saying is Itachi is merely creating a very specific scenario in Sasuke's mind.



> Like I said, Itachi'd consider if that was a possibility. You'r trying to argue a moot point.


My point is that _that _was Itachi's original plan but Sasuke foiled it.

Now can you explain to me why BZ took exception to numerous things throughout Itach's and Sasuke's fight concerning Itachi's well-being and Sasuke being able to avoid being hit by Tsukuyomi was not one of them?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 11, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> You're telling me Itachi can't exhaust Sasuke's chakra after he's been knocked out?


How ?


> Remember Itachi is controlling the illusion. He could have conceivably created the same fight in Sasuke's head that actually happened, with Itachi dying at Sasuke's feet after Sasuke had himself been completely exhausted. Keep in mind there are numerous ways this could have gone down, but because Sasuke avoided being hit none of them ever could have came to fruition.


You can't physically exhaust someone with genjutsu. Also like I said, Sasuke'd see through the genjutsu.



> Because Obito's never lied before (or in this case stretched the truth)  Because he didn't already flat out lie in that same speech to Sasuke (i.e., Kyuubi fight)


Obito lied there ? 
Evidence ? 

Everything he said is also confirmed in the databook and by other characters. Obito's story about Itachi is confirmed by Danzo and Hiruzen.



> You can support this with...?


Scans I already provided. Itachi's death triggered the MS, it is stated and shown. It is not open to debate.



> This is a complete stretch. Again, Sasuke despised Itachi and freaked out at Obito when he told him the truth. The awakening of MS is triggered by the emotional response of said person's death, not the permanent ending of a former bond.


So you'r saying that the authors explanation is a stretch 
Severing the bond is a metaphor. But yes, losing someone close to you is what triggers the activation of MS.



> Sasuke's response right here is literally the same one we get each time MS in unlocked (tears and shit).


Thats just displaying is new resolve and power. He didn't unlock MS @ that very moment. 



> Sure, but Tsukuyomi is not an ordinary genjutsu.


What does that mean ? Sharingan can see through Tsukiyomi as well.



> Who said anything about brainwashing? I'm not making Tsukuyomi out to be like it's Koto. What I'm saying is Itachi is merely creating a very specific scenario in Sasuke's mind.



What you'r saying makes no sense.
You think Itachi can use Tsukiyomi on Sasuke and recreate the whole fight in his head ?
first off, Sasuke'd see through the genjutsu.
Second off, how can he remove Orochimaru wihout exhausting Sasuke's chakra completely.
And how can he give sasuke MS without dying ? 



> *My point is that that was Itachi's original *plan but Sasuke foiled it.


WHAT ? 

Did Itachi secretly tell you about his plans ? How can you know something that even the author himself don't ? 

You'r so delusional that I just realized I was basically wasting my time here.
I'm done, lol.



> Now can you explain to me why BZ took exception to numerous things throughout Itach's and Sasuke's fight concerning Itachi's well-being and Sasuke being able to avoid being hit by Tsukuyomi was not one of them?


BZ can't see into genjutsu. He saw Itachi use genjutsu and saw Sasuke get up. He thought Sasuke broke it. BZ didn't know anything about Itachi's intentions and he thought it was a legit fight.


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

This is still going on?
I had no idea Deidara had tskuyomi immunity which vastly outclasses sasuke entire genjutsu arsenal 
Itachi no diffs deidara


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## StickaStick (May 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How ?


Tsukuyomi, for one. Sasuke simply trying to struggle with Itachi in the illusion would exhaust him a great deal, as it did anyway [1].



> You can't physically exhaust someone with genjutsu. Also like I said, Sasuke'd see through the genjutsu.


Of course you can. Were you not paying attention to when Itachi Tsukuyomi'd Kakashi and Sasuke in PTI and the effect is had on them?



> Obito lied there ?
> Evidence ?


The evidence is in the fact that was he's saying is factually incorrect and makes no sense.



> Everything he said is also confirmed in the databook and by other characters. Obito's story about Itachi is confirmed by Danzo and Hiruzen.


Obito's story about Itachi's role in the Uchiha Massacre and etc. is confirmed, not Obito's assertion that Itachi planned every meticulous detail of his throwing the fight. Again, how would Obito know Itachi planned _every detail_? 



> So you'r saying that the authors explanation is a stretch
> Severing the bond is a metaphor. But yes, losing someone close to you is what triggers the activation of MS.


The author's words are not always to be taken at face-value. They're supposed to be taken within the context of the character stating them and the circumstances surrounding them. And no, you're wrong. Sasuke did not have the emotional reaction to trigger MS when Itachi died; nor would we expect him to at that point.

When Shisui died Itachi immediately awoke MS. When Rin died Obito and Kakashi immediately awoke MS. In fact, the latter awoke MS and then subsequently passed out (as Sasuke did). When Sasuke realized that Itachi was dead he did NOT immediately awaken MS. There's no excuses here. What your're suggesting is not consistent with what we've been shown. 



> What does that mean ? Sharingan can see through Tsukiyomi as well.


Itachi was fooling Sasuke with basic fodder genjutsu earlier in their fight, and now you're telling me Sasuke can see through Tsukuyomi just fine. Sure.

If anything, by stating that Sasuke can see throw Itachi's Tsukuyomi without difficulty you're supporting my point that Sasuke could avoid being hit by it of his own volition.



> WHAT ?
> 
> Did Itachi secretly tell you about his plans ? How can you know something that even the author himself don't ?


The author isn't required to spoon feed his/her readers every single detail. Some things have to be pieced together with the additional information provided.



> I'm done, lol.


K, see ya latter.



> BZ can't see into genjutsu. He saw Itachi use genjutsu and saw Sasuke get up. He thought Sasuke broke it. BZ didn't know anything about Itachi's intentions and he thought it was a legit fight.


You're missing the boat completely. BZ knows what Itachi is capable of. And despite that he was not surprised that Sasuke could avoid being hit by Itachi's Tsukuymoi and even provided a very sensible explanation why he could.

Funny, BZ is the infallible authority when it comes to concluding to what degree Itachi was held back by his health during his fight with Sasuke but when it comes to this suddenly he doesn't know what he's talking about


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 11, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Tsukuyomi, for one. Sasuke simply trying to struggle with Itachi in the illusion would exhaust him a great deal, as it did anyway [1].
> 
> 
> Of course you can. Were you not paying attention to when Itachi Tsukuyomi'd Kakashi and Sasuke in PTI and the effect is had on them?
> ...




You know the debate is over when someone is claiming that they know better than the author of the manga.

Anyways, I guess you have to continue your debate with Kishimoto himself from this point on.
Hell, you may give him an idea or two


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## StickaStick (May 11, 2015)

I'd ask you to point out where I flat out called Kishi a liar, but I wouldn't want to put you in the position of having to defend a lie  In fact, you've effectively called Kishi a liar by ignoring BZ's comments and their context and denying how MS's awakening has been show each and every time.

W/e. I can see we're done here.


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## UchihaX28 (May 11, 2015)

Apparently, Grim's only argument is "Itachi held back and planned the entire fight."

 Not that it refutes anything. Sasuke's 3 Tomoe was implied to be stronger than Itachi's 3 Tomoe in Genjutsu, hence why Sasuke talked about the skill of the user is more important than the weapon itself and Zetsu never doubted it.   Hope Grim can find evidence where Obito flat out contradicts that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Apparently, Grim's only argument is "Itachi held back and planned the entire fight."
> 
> Not that it refutes anything.



First off, it is not my argument. It is what is stated in the manga, multiple times. Should I post those scans again ? 

And it refutes anything that contradicts that statement 
Like, Itachi underestimating Sasuke, hitting him as hard as he can etc.
Like 99% of the things you've said in the course of this thread.



> Sasuke's 3 Tomoe was implied to be stronger than Itachi's 3 Tomoe in Genjutsu,


Find me a scan showing or stating that Sasuke's 3 tomoe genjutsu is stronger than Itachi's 3 tomoe and I'll delete my account. 
But if you can't, the you'll delete yours.
Are you in ? 
If you'r not in, then you'll concede the argument all together.



> hence why Sasuke talked about the skill of the user is more important than the weapon itself and Zetsu never doubted it.   Hope Grim can find evidence where Obito flat out contradicts that.



Sasuke never talked about it. Zetsu did, and Zetsu was in our shoes, so he thought Itachi was geniunely trying to kill Sasuke the entire time.

So when we all went "oh fuck so Itachi was holding back the entire time" after Obito revealed everything to Sasuke, Zetsu must have thought the same, given he was totally clueless.
There is no way Zetsu could have assessed the situation accurately, given he was in the dark as much as we were.


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## StarWanderer (May 14, 2015)

Itachi dominates, no difficulty.


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