# Itachi vs Tobirama



## Matty (Sep 17, 2015)

Area: Sasuke vs Danzo
Knowledge: Itachi knows how Hiraishin works, Tobirama know Itachi is Uchiha and uses Sharingan, they also have manga knowledge
Mindset: IC
Distance: 100 Meters
Restrictions: None

Tobirama has not pre tagged outside the battlefield for an escape. Itachi is "Prime" and does not have his sickness


----------



## Trojan (Sep 17, 2015)

It's been done before. Tobirama wins. 

He is better at everything (besides Genjutsu).


----------



## A Optimistic (Sep 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> It's been done before. Tobirama wins.
> 
> He is better at everything (besides Genjutsu).





No way itachi loses


----------



## Trojan (Sep 17, 2015)

Avalon said:


> No way itachi loses



And why is that?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 17, 2015)

Bridge doesn't give Tobirama much room to maneuver (but it also doesn't give Itachi much room to maneuver from him), with the lack of knowledge that Itachi has MS and Itachi knowing about Hirashin (but not that Tobirama can use it) he's at more of a disadvantage from the outset. 

It's likely they clash in CQC initially though because OP doesn't stipulate whether or not they have manga knowledge, can't see Itachi bothering with Ninjutsu or Genjutsu against a random shinobi and vice versa with Tobirama, both have great physical stats and close quarter ability so there's no reason for either to not go in, it's 50/50 there considering
1. Tobirama has no knowledge that Itachi can use 3-toma Genjutsu
2. Itachi has no knowledge Tobirama can use FTG

I can't really say who'd come out of that close quarter exchange on top, maybe Tobirama avoids eye contact against Uchiha by nature (as he battled them for so long), maybe he doesn't and can simply break out of it at will because of his power and chakra control, and maybe Tobirama doesn't bother using tagged kunai against a random Uchiha.

With the 100m distance it's iffy though, while one of them covers that distance it may give an indication on their high speed, which may tip the other one off about the power scale of their opponent, of course this can be the case for both as they may well both run at each other at high speed. Whether that warrants Tobirama attempting to use FTG with kunai, or Itachi to use 3-toma Genjutsu or a bunshin before they clash- we just don't know.

Actually OP I've got a question about knowledge. *Are you literally giving them only those two pieces of knowledge, or do they also have manga knowledge (Tobirama knows somewhat about MS powers in general [not that Itachi has them but just about them] as he fought Izuna & Madara, I.E. Susano, maybe Amaterasu, definitely MS Genjutsu, Itachi recognizes the 2nd Hokage's face from the monument and/or his attire and can identify him etc.) on top of those two granted knowledges*?


----------



## Ghost (Sep 17, 2015)

Don't see how Tobirama can win this.

Tobi's movement speed is only slightly faster than Itachi's which won't help him here at all. Itachi with his Sharingan precog and genjutsu, clones, Susano'o and other Ninjutsu completely dominates Tobi in CQC.


----------



## Duhul10 (Sep 17, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Don't see how Tobirama can win this.
> 
> Tobi's movement speed is only slightly faster than Itachi's which won't help him here at all. Itachi with his Sharingan precog and genjutsu, clones, Susano'o and other Ninjutsu completely dominates Tobi in CQC.



 only slightly faster.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 17, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> only slightly faster.



Neither of them has good feats with Shunshin honestly. 
I asked many times about itachi's speed feats with Shunshin and all I get "just cuz he's itachi"
and Tobirama almost has no feats with Shunshin either.


----------



## Bonly (Sep 17, 2015)

IMO either Itachi manages to catch Tobi in a genjutsu and then lands a fatal blow(assuming the genjutsu isn't said fatal blow) or Tobi is gonna counter most of what Itachi does either lands a touch on him which will later lead to a GG



Hussain said:


> Neither of them has good feats with Shunshin honestly.
> *I asked many times about itachi's speed feats with Shunshin* and all I get "just cuz he's itachi"
> and Tobirama almost has no feats with Shunshin either.



Have you asked Strategoob yet?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 17, 2015)

Well people bring up the fact that Minato got to the battlefield before Tobirama, Hashirama & Hiruzen, and use that to indicate that Minato has a faster shunshin than them all.

Tobirama arrived to the battlefield at the same time as Hashirama and Hiruzen, Hashirama was outrunning a Tailed Beast Ball with a PS Sword in it, and created enough distance to stop and summon Rash Gates. Prior to that, he was literally outrunning a PS-Coated 100% Kurama who was chasing him and blowing up the terrain in smoke clouds. 

So, perhaps Hiruzen & Tobirama's shunshin is great enough to outrun Tailed Beast Ball & PS 100% Kurama.

Then again, Tobirama & Hashirama were canonically stated to be less than their full power (Madara, Tobirama both said this) as Edos, so who knows? Maybe Hashirama was nerfed bad with his shunshin (much slower as Edo than when alive), and maybe Tobirama's shunshin wasn't nerfed as bad, so they got there at the same time.

Of course, living feats would fix this problem. Too bad Tobirama doesn't have them, and most of Itachi's shunshin feats are started with a bunshin, though he does have the feat of reacting to SM Kabuto with the blade, cutting his horn off, reacting/grabbing him with Susano arm and moving in reaction to White Rage being produced (something EMS Sasuke did not do). These are, however, mostly not shunshin feats lol

The one good shunshin feat Tobirama does have is managing to put his hand on Jubito's back while he was somewhat preoccupied, I am not sure if that was Hirashin or Shunshin though.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 17, 2015)

Hashirama was already ahead of the TBB.
It's just like what he did with Madara when they were kids.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 17, 2015)

Not by much [1], and he gathered significantly more distance between it and him to summon 3 massive gates in between him and the Tailed Beast Ball [2]. The dude is actually busting stone with the force/speed of his fall before summoning them. 

Assuming he gained no distance at all on it, that simply means his shunshin is equal with the speed of a bijuudama, which is magnificent in it's own right. The fact he had enough time to fall, then summon gates between them suggests at the very least he maintained a similar distance from when it was shot between them, arguably gaining a little on it as the TBB looked to still be considerably far off from where he was _after_ he stopped and summoned the gates which obviously allowed the TBB to gain some more distance on him if he's no longer moving and needs to take more time to summon gates- yet the thing was still very far away from him. 

He also outran/avoided PS Clad 100% Kurama's blitzing attempts over an extended distance (mountains)- outrunning them [1], which is what forced Madara to use the Tailed Beast Ball. That is a magnificent shunshin feat. You can actually see the wake the Susano is leaving over the distance of 3 mountains, it looks to be an equal streak of land wake all the way through meaning there was no time for the wake across the distance of 3 mountains to settle as the height of the wake at the beginning of the first mountain is comparable to the height of the wake beyond the third mountain and onto the shores, that thing can travel the distance of 2-3 mountains in a very short amount of time- and Hashirama was not only avoiding it- but staying in front of it (moving as fast as it)


----------



## Trojan (Sep 17, 2015)

We don't know the distance, so I am not sure from where you got "not by much" from.
Hashirama was ahead here
[1]

while the TBB started being charged in the last panels.

and here when the TBB was fired off, Hashirama was not running anymore
[1]
he immediately summoned the gates. If he has the ability to outrun it, he would have simply get out of its way
instead of wasting his chakra.

and PS was never shown to be fast (Madara's PS at least)

not sure what you're referring to in the last line tho


----------



## Matty (Sep 17, 2015)

Viz they do have manga knowledge. Whatever you would imagine Tobirama knew about MS and Itachi knowing about the Nidaime Hokage


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 17, 2015)

>Saw Hussain posting in this thread
>Wanted to see which one of them he would say he's the weakest
>See it's Itachi

Sasuga Hussain 

OT: Still the usual could go either way because "FTG vs Genjutsu".


----------



## Kai (Sep 17, 2015)

It can go either way, as usual. One of the closest fights as both are extremely intelligent, skilled, and is one of the closest comparable strengths between a Senju and Uchiha.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 17, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >Saw Hussain posting in this thread
> >Wanted to see which one of them he would say he's the weakest
> >See it's Itachi
> 
> ...





> still wonders from where did people pull out the whole (FTG Vs Genjutsu) crap.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> > still wonders from where did people pull out the whole (FTG Vs Genjutsu) crap.



Maybe because it's basically a battle of intelligence.

Also
>Using Minato as an exemple when he isn't in the match-up  and using Izuna when he's featless

Sasuga Hussain


----------



## Rocky (Sep 17, 2015)

Ghost said:


> Itachi with his Sharingan precog and genjutsu, clones, Susano'o and other Ninjutsu completely dominates Tobi in CQC.



All you did was list Itachi's techniques. Tobirama has his teleportation, chakra sensing, and own clones to keep pace with Itachi in close quarters. What's more is that Hiraishin involves no physical movement, so the Sharingan's enhanced perception won't work on it. 

This is just a bad match up for Itachi. The wild card is Itachi's stock genjutsu and how Tobirama will deal with it, but I'm not about to pretend that Itachi has the advantage against a man with comparable intelligence, comparable combat skill, and _far_ more experience fighting Uchiha & the Sharingan than Itachi has fighting Hiraishin.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 17, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Maybe because it's basically a battle of intelligence.
> 
> Also
> >Using Minato as an exemple when he isn't in the match-up  and using Izuna when he's featless
> ...



- Says who? 
- Minato has nothing to do with those gif. 

You said "FTG Vs Genjutsu" where has such a thing EVER been implied or stated to be "one of the closest match ups"

I am just calling out that nonsense Fan-fiction crap for what it is. Both of those uchihas have MS, and they were both defeated. No such thing as "it came down to Genjutsu Vs FTG" has EVER been made. 



> and using Izuna when he's featless



Hamaru, Asura, Indra...etc are featless

Oh my, they are weaker than Konohamaru

> Cuz common sense.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> We don't know the distance, so I am not sure from where you got "not by much" from.
> Hashirama was ahead here
> [1]
> 
> ...


Dude, he had enough time to stop and summon 3 gates between him and a bijuudama coming at him. When the gates are finished summoning, the bijuudama clearly looks to be at a _further distance_ to Hashirama than when it was shot at Hashirama initially. 

It doesn't matter if Madara's PS wasn't shown as fast.

The feat is proven fast as the wake that it and 100% Kurama left over 3 mountains suggested they traveled over that distance nigh instantly. The explosive wake at the first mountain is at a similar height as the explosive wake on the shores beyond the 3rd mountain- we can see it in the same caption. 

Also, PS is covering 100% Kurama. To suggest that version of Kurama is even remotely slow is comical, I see no reason why it wouldn't be as fast if not faster than the combination BSMPS Sasuke & Naruto & 50% Kurama used.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 17, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> It doesn't matter if Madara's PS wasn't shown as fast.
> 
> The feat is proven fast as the wake that it and 100% Kurama left over 3 mountains suggested they traveled over that distance nigh instantly. The explosive wake at the first mountain is at a similar height as the explosive wake on the shores beyond the 3rd mountain- we can see it in the same caption.
> 
> Also, PS is covering 100% Kurama who is not slow.



Long story short. Hashirama is as fast as Old Hiruzen, so his speed is around 3 out of 5.
He is slightly above average. Nothing much. 

and yes, that's slower than itachi.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 17, 2015)

*Living* Hashirama has shown to pace faster than a bijuudama and avoid PS Kurama who blitzed over the distance of 3 mountains nigh instantly.

Please exclude Edo feats as it pertains to him, he was clearly stated to be weaker than his living self. 

Low-end feats do not define a shinobi, if that were the case Minato's KCM shunshin/reaction/movement speed would be equal to Kakashi's as they both reacted/began moving/arrived at Black Zetsu at nearly the same time with equal starting distance [1] [2], and Black Zetsu managed to react, and merge with Obito before KCM Minato could get him from literally 1m

Living Hashirama's high-end shunshin feats are so far above anything Hiruzen has ever done.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 17, 2015)

No , some databook marks are just bullshit , Kisame got 4/5 in speed , and he can react to V1 Bee , while Deidara got 4.5/5 and was nearly sliced by Sasuke , so .... No , marks don't make any sens .

Plus the fourth databook said that Hashirama was a top level at speed , he should be near V1 Raikage's speed and considerably faster than any average Kage level , same thing* for Madara who is just an adult version of Sasuke* , plus Hashirama will never be overwhelmed by Tobirama's speed , it doesn't make any sens since they all fought many Taijutsu battles .


----------



## Rocky (Sep 17, 2015)

Kisame could react, but he couldn't evade v1 B. V2 B smashed Kisame's chest open.

Deidara could outright evade Sasuke, so there's no real contradiction. 

Hashirama and Madara are Top Tier and probably not lacking in speed, but Tobirama was the fastest of the era.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 17, 2015)

Samehada certainly had no issue avoiding V1 Bee.

He moved his feet and arms, Samehada outright avoided it, don't see why he couldn't have duct his head instead [1] [2], unless of course that's just Samehada dragging his body along which is actually possible


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - Says who?



Common Sense: when you have two intelligent character fight and they're close in power, what do you think will make them win?




> You said "FTG Vs Genjutsu" where has such a thing EVER been implied or stated to be "one of the closest match ups"



You don't need to be Sherlock to figure out that "a guy that can basically win with a illusion" vs "a guy that basically win when he touch you" is close.



> I am just calling out that nonsense Fan-fiction crap for what it is. Both of those uchihas have MS, and they were both defeated. No such thing as "it came down to Genjutsu Vs FTG" has EVER been made.



Just because they have MS doesn't mean they're Itachi-level at genjutsu, or that they even used it during their respective fight (Obito didn't have experience and Izuna's fight was off-paneled) 



> Hamaru, Asura, Indra...etc are featless
> 
> Oh my, they are weaker than Konohamaru



>Implying he's anywhere close these guy.
Sasuga Hussain 



> > Cuz common sense.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 17, 2015)

@*Rocky*

Kisame didn't only evade , he easily dodged and sliced V1 Bee's chakra with a high degre of accuracy :

*Spoiler*: __ 








Deidara said himself he can't keep dodging Sasuke's linear Shunshin speed any longer without his flying clay birds :

*Spoiler*: __ 







If it was V1 Bee's Shunshin who is much faster , it would be a certain death .

Plus , Haku the guy outclassed by Sasuke of the very beginning of the manga got the same mark as Kisame , while Hiruzen got only 3 , the guy who dominate Taijutsu battle against Orochimaru yeah to me databook marks are just bullshit .


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 17, 2015)

Tobirama is only marginally faster than Itachi, not enough to make any decisive victory. While he can dance around Itachi's Amaterasu, Totsuka blade and projectile attacks with Hiraishin, he isn't likely to make any critical hits so long as Itachi can create Bunshin and form a Susano'o.

On the other hand, Itachi has enough finesse to stall Tobirama, if only temporarily, with genjutsu. Tobirama can break out because he's a sensor, but if it's a subtle enough illusion (which we know Itachi is skilled at making) then he should have no issue temporarily immobilising the Nidaime. At that point he can set him ablaze with Amaterasu or Totsuka seal.

Itachi will have difficulty, but he'll win sooner or later with his careful use of genjutsu.​​


----------



## Rocky (Sep 17, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Kisame didn't only evade , he easily dodged and sliced V1 Bee's chakra with a high degre of accuracy.



Samehada parried B. Emphasis on "Samehada" and "parried." Had Deidara been holding the thing, you'd see a similar result. 



hbcaptain said:


> Plus, Haku the guy outclassed by Sasuke of the very beginning of the manga got the same mark as Kisame , while Hiruzen got only 3 , the guy who dominate Taijutsu battle against Orochimaru yeah to me databook marks are just bullshit .



Yeah, inconsistencies are there. They're in both the Databook and the manga. The Databook is still a useful tool. Plus there are other factors. Hiruzen had a five in taijutsu and Haku was apparently holding back (and did okay against Gai & Lee as a zombie iirc).


----------



## Rocky (Sep 17, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tobirama is only marginally faster than Itachi.



Tobirama's speed is closer to Minato's than it is to Itachi's. It may not result in decisive victory, but it's certainly a decisive advantage.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 17, 2015)

Rocky said:
			
		

> Yeah, inconsistencies are there. They're in both the Databook and the manga. The Databook is still a useful tool. Plus there are other factors. Hiruzen had a five in taijutsu and Haku was apparently holding back (and did okay against Gai & Lee as a zombie iirc).


Yeah , Databook is pretty useful to gain more informations it's interesting , but characters marks , and affinities distributions are just too inconsistant . 



			
				Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> Tobirama is only marginally faster than Itachi, not enough to make any decisive victory. While he can dance around Itachi's Amaterasu, Totsuka blade and projectile attacks with Hiraishin, he isn't likely to make any critical hits so long as Itachi can create Bunshin and form a Susano'o.


Itachi can't spamm many Jutsu's while Tobirama just evading attacks , he have to chose one of them , So Amaterasu = useless (too slow) , Totsuka = useless (too slow) , Genjutsu = useless (Tobirama will never be caugh in Genjutsu while has access to sensor abilities+FTG/Shunshin) .

If Itachi try a clever combo , then Tobirama has the same intelligence , he can also use clever combos , plus he has much more chakra  and doesn't suffer form MS repercussions , and above of all FTG nearly doesn't need chakra , or really very little amount .


----------



## Ghost (Sep 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> This is just a bad match up for Itachi. The wild card is Itachi's stock genjutsu and how Tobirama will deal with it, but I'm not about to pretend that Itachi has the advantage against a man with comparable intelligence, comparable combat skill, and _far_ more experience fighting Uchiha & the Sharingan than Itachi has fighting Hiraishin.



I'm gonna go ahead and say Itachi has the knowledge advantage here. Knowing about Hiraishin > Tobi knowing Itachi is an Uchiha. 

Looking at these guys' abilities I think its pretty safe to say that this fight is going to take place in close quarters.

The speed difference between KN0/1 Naruto and Three tomoe Sasuke was enormous however due to Sharingan's precog Sasuke was able to react to Naruto. Here the speed difference between Itachi and Tobi is much, much smaller than that. It almost doesn't even exist. We know for a fact that Itachi creates clones and switches places with them so fast that even a mastered Sharingan can't see it happening. Tobirama is clearly at a disadvantage. 

Itachi knows what he has to look out for which is Hiraishin and Tobi tagging him. Itachi has perfect tools to prevent that (clones, Susano'o). Tobi is perfectly aware of Sharingan and what it can do but he has no idea how good Itachi is at Genjutsu. Tell me, will Tobirama fight by limiting his vision of Itachi? He is going to eat Amaterasu if he does that or just simply fall behind in the fight. So, what if he doesn't do that? He is going to get put in Genjutsu. I'm sure Tobirama would be able to break out of Itachi's normal Genjutsu, but first he needs to realize he is in one. I doubt Itachi would make his illusions so plain obvious like he did against Naruto. We all know that Tsukuyomi will one shot, and Tobi has no knowledge of it at all. 

Itachi is the one knowing what he is getting into. He knows Tobi is the Second and how Hiraishin works. Tobirama only knows that Itachi is an Uchiha. I would imagine Itachi wouldn't fuck around at all in here and go for the win right away.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Sep 17, 2015)

We all know how this will play out 



To make this simple I am just going to say I think kishi has simply placed Tobirama on another level compared to Itachi. One simply needs to look at the war arc hype and feats. Hell Tobirama probably knows more about the sharingan and it's abilities then Itachi does 

The only possible way for Itachi to win is if he lands Tsukuyomi and that's even questionable since Tobirama did not seem surprised about Tsukuyomi in general. Tobiramas entire arsenal was based around fighting the sharingan. Between Sensing & FTG he simply trolls Itachs entire arsenal

Lets see: Tobirama is...
Smarter & More tactical
Sensor
Greater Chakra
Better Reactions
Faster
Jutsus that troll the sharingan

Itachi really does not stand a chance imo after his war arc feats and how the hell is Tobiramas speed marginally better then Itachs


----------



## Kyu (Sep 17, 2015)

So Itachi vs a less mobile Minato w/ suiton, zombies, & endless explosive tags?

Could go either way.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tobirama's speed is closer to Minato's than it is to Itachi's. It may not result in decisive victory, but it's certainly a decisive advantage.



I only meant that his speed wouldn't give him any decisive victory. As for the speed difference between Itachi and Minato, I don't think it's _huge_ to begin with. Anyway, speed advantage or not, Tobirama won't be engaging Itachi in straight taijitsu, so I don't see it having any great impact unless Itachi runs out of chakra.



hbcaptain said:


> Itachi can't spamm many Jutsu's while Tobirama just evading attacks , he have to chose one of them , So Amaterasu = useless (too slow) , Totsuka = useless (too slow) , Genjutsu = useless *(Tobirama will never be caugh in Genjutsu while has access to sensor abilities+FTG/Shunshin)* .



Well I've already pointed out why I disagree with that assessment. Tobirama is a sensor, but even sensors have to actively _try_ to sense, it isn't an automatic ability for the majority of them. If Itachi catches him in a subtle genjutsu that appears real, Tobirama will have no reason to grow suspicious. Granted, Tobirama is clever, and might try to sense his opponent every now and then sheerly out of caution. Therefore, he would figure the illusion out more quickly than most ninja would, even if it was subtle. However, even then, there's inevitably going to be a short period of time where Tobirama is defenceless before he discovers he's in a genjutsu, and Itachi is more than fast enough to kill him during that time.​​


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Sep 17, 2015)

Kyu said:


> So Itachi vs a less mobile Minato w/ suiton, zombies, & endless explosive tags?
> 
> Could go either way.



While Minato has the superior FTG and speed, Tobirama has better sensing and reflexes

Kind of a mute point


----------



## Sans (Sep 17, 2015)

Complete_Ownage said:


> We all know how this will play out



Rape jokes are always classy, congratulations.


----------



## Ghoztly (Sep 17, 2015)

It starts out very even.

But it all falls apart eventually, can't see him beating Itachi.

What does he have that can stand against Itachi's Susanoo? He's practially invulnerable to him. And that is if he even manages to push Itachi to the extent he needs to use that. Itachi IS genjutsu ,he isn't just some scrub using fodder genjutsu, he has the best in the series.

His speed advantage over Itachi means jack shit it's just not a big enough gap. Itachi's just as smart if not smarter than he is.

He doesn't have the eyes to beat Itachi. The experience? Oh yeah, but he isn't an Uchiha, so he loses. Itachi basically murks almost anyone who doesn't have a sharingan, and he murks half the ones that do, and the other half you can argue he wins in some cases lol. 

Tobirama holds his own against Itachi until the trolling begins, then Itachi stomps him and makes him run to his brother for help.

There is a reason he is the most wanked character.

And Itachi KNOWS about the FTG? Someone get an ambulence for Tobirama before it's too late.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 17, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> *Living* Hashirama has shown to pace faster than a bijuudama and avoid PS Kurama who blitzed over the distance of 3 mountains nigh instantly.
> 
> Please exclude Edo feats as it pertains to him, he was clearly stated to be weaker than his living self.
> 
> ...



- you're retelling what you said before.
- The ET were almost at full strength. Not enough to make that big of a different.
- Don't be ridiculous. That chapter was MEANT to SPECIFICALLY show their speed in comparison to each other.  



hbcaptain said:


> No , some databook marks are just bullshit , Kisame got 4/5 in speed , and he can react to V1 Bee , while Deidara got 4.5/5 and was nearly sliced by Sasuke , so .... No , marks don't make any sens .
> 
> Plus the fourth databook said that Hashirama was a top level at speed , he should be near V1 Raikage's speed and considerably faster than any average Kage level , same thing* for Madara who is just an adult version of Sasuke* , plus Hashirama will never be overwhelmed by Tobirama's speed , it doesn't make any sens since they all fought many Taijutsu battles .



Hashirama's profile

Could you please quote where the Databook mentioned Hashirama's speed?I am interested  


> [=Hachibi;54362744]Common Sense: when you have two intelligent character fight and they're close in power, what do you think will make them win?


"Close in power" is fanfictions. No where was it stated nor has itachi ever been compared to any of the Hokages. 
What we have is your statement "FTG Vs Genjutsu"

We have the usual fan-fiction "it's a close match, and it comes to FTG VS Genjutsu and who does it first"
and we have canon material that 2 different FTG users against 2 different MS users resulted with the MS users losing. 




> You don't need to be Sherlock to figure out that "a guy that can basically win with a illusion" vs "a guy that basically win when he touch you" is close.



That's dump. 
Let me see, a guy who can  win with wood (Hashirama) Vs a guy who can win with speed "Tobirama" is close. 
I am fascinated about how you came up with logic. Obviously EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER would "win" with their
style. From where you brought up the comparison between those 2 and made it as a fact is mind  boggling. 


> Just because they have MS doesn't mean they're Itachi-level at genjutsu, or that they even used it during their respective fight (Obito didn't have experience and Izuna's fight was off-paneled)


Please, enlighten me with itachi's feats with Genjutsu that exceeds Obito controlling Kurama and Yagura. 



> >Implying he's anywhere close these guy.
> Sasuga Hussain



oh, so feats are not important all of a sudden?


----------



## Kyu (Sep 17, 2015)

> superior FTG and speed



Minato's FTG = dozens upon dozens of kunai used as warping points, hence considerably greater mobility on the battlefield.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 17, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> It starts out very even.
> 
> But it all falls apart eventually, can't see him beating Itachi.
> *
> What does he have that can stand against Itachi's Susanoo? He's practially invulnerable to him. And that is if he even manages to push Itachi to the extent he needs to use that. Itachi IS genjutsu ,he isn't just some scrub using fodder genjutsu, he has the best in the series.*



You do know that the Susanoo is made of chakra right?

Tobirama can touch the Susanoo and create a chakra-link. From there, he can teleport inside, or teleport itachi outside (since making a chakra link with the Susanoo means it will be made with itachi since it's his chakra).

Now tell me how the Susanoo is a factor? It will only make it easier for Tobirama to make the link.


----------



## Ghoztly (Sep 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> You do know that the Susanoo is made of chakra right?
> 
> Tobirama can touch the Susanoo and create a chakra-link. From there, he can teleport inside, or teleport itachi outside (since making a chakra link with the Susanoo means it will be made with itachi since it's his chakra).
> 
> Now tell me how the Susanoo is a factor? It will only make it easier for Tobirama to make the link.



Are you forgetting what his Susanoo is holding?


----------



## Trojan (Sep 17, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Are you forgetting what his Susanoo is holding?



What different does that make exactly? 

If Tobirama touches the mirror, he will still make the chakra link regardless. 
Even if you would argue that they are 2 different things, and making it with the mirror does not mean he can effect the Susanoo, it's still useful
because he will AT LEAST get rid of the mirror, no? 



Kyu said:


> Minato's FTG = dozens upon dozens of kunai used as warping points, hence considerably greater mobility on the battlefield.



Kyu please. 

"Minato* handles to perfection the “Hiraishin no jutsu” *space-time ninjutsu that was invented by Nidaime Hokage Senju Tobirama," 
" *Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed*, the honour of that valour fascinates even the elites of other villages."[]. 
Flying Thunder God Level 2: "It is *an evolved variation* of space-time ninjutsu!!"[]
Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi "Fourth Hokage taking this technique *and pushing it even higher*"[]
"Namikaze Minato *improved* the mastery of “Hiraishin no jutsu”, and thus took the nickname “The Yellow Flash”. The excellent jutsu was *refined* according to the disciple, who* evolved it *together with the era." []

those are why Minato's FTG is superior 

(I should probably edit my sig with the other panels and stuff )


----------



## Rocky (Sep 17, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> As for the speed difference between Itachi and Minato, I don't think it's _huge_ to begin with.



I don't know if you're just not counting Hiraishin, but Itachi's pretty far below A, who's below Minato.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 17, 2015)

Kai said:


> It can go either way, as usual. One of the closest fights as both are extremely intelligent, skilled, and is one of the closest comparable strengths between a Senju and Uchiha.



But you know Itachi'd win if Kishi wrote the fight. Not only is Itachi his preferred and much more central character, but he highlighted Itachi as a tremendous hero in contrast to Tobirama who was portrayed as a misguided semi-racist in handling Uchiha.​


Rocky said:


> This is just a bad match up for Itachi.



Not really. Tobirama has no real genjutsu defense or knowledge, unlike Bee, Sasuke, Kakashi, Kabuto, etc. did against Itachi in the manga. Itachi likely has historic knowledge of Tobirama. Tobirama also lacks the offense to get through even v1 Susano'o.​


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't know if you're just not counting Hiraishin, but Itachi's pretty far below A, who's below Minato.



Without Hiraishin, I'm assuming. 
Nothing really suggests that Living Minato without Hiraishin is faster than V2 Ei. In fact, it's the one technique that stopped Ei from disfiguring his face in every one of their confrontations.


----------



## Ersa (Sep 17, 2015)

Without Hirashin neither Minato or Tobirama honestly hold that much of a speed advantage over Itachi. At least not enough that it actually matters, it's mitigated by the Sharingan and Itachi's own top tier reflexes.

As for the thread, a hypothetical prime Itachi is a toss-up because there's too many unknowns. I'd say Edo wins almost all the time and terminally ill Itachi likely loses more often then not.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 17, 2015)

> - you're retelling what you said before.


Yes, and it can't be denied. 


> - The ET were almost at full strength. Not enough to make that big of a different.


Almost =/= at full strength.

The difference could be as significant as the difference between V1 Ei and V2 Ei. 



> - Don't be ridiculous. That chapter was MEANT to SPECIFICALLY show their speed in comparison to each other.


So then we either take the fact that as zombies the brothers are slower, or we grant Hiruzen with bijuudama/PS Clad 100% Multi-mountain travel over a couple seconds speed. 

It depends on the debater I guess. All things considered, Living Hashirama's shunshin is certainly above most kage levels, and by a considerable amount based on the scans I posted.

With those base shunshin feats (scans I posted) and his reflexes (against EMS Madara in CQC who bitch slapped War-arc SM Naruto while blind, creating wood human and capturing bijuudama in mid-fire) it can be argued that he's on the level of Ei or beyond him in speed while he is in Sage Mode.


----------



## Nikushimi (Sep 18, 2015)

Tobirama's not in a good position to fight Itachi with such nonspecific intel; he may have some idea about fighting the Sharingan, but he doesn't know anything here about Tsukuyomi, which is a bit of a rule-breaker. Itachi doesn't have the complete picture either, but at least he's been given knowledge of Tobirama's most important Jutsu: Hiraishin.

This is one of those matches that will divide people along fandom lines. Very predictably.

Not everyone's going to admit it, but either combatant could win. I'd say Itachi is in an advantaged position, simply based on who I think got the better share of intel...but that's not decisive enough to make me confident he would be the one to come out on top; there are a million other fucking things that could upset the course of this fight.

The usual considerations come into play here: Tobirama makes eye-contact--even for a second--he's toast. Itachi's stamina is shit; the longer the fight drags on and the more his MS Jutsu go to waste, the worse he's gonna perform and the more his chances of victory are gonna drop sharply. There's a sweet spot somewhere in the middle where it's anybody's game and the fight just has to play out, surprises and all. Probably a good number of clone feints from both sides.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 18, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yes, and it can't be denied.
> Almost =/= at full strength.
> 
> The difference could be as significant as the difference between V1 Ei and V2 Ei.
> ...



Their speed was not effected. Or it would have effected Minato's speed as well. The chapter simply
show that people are overwanking/over thinking/over analyzing (whatever you want to call it) that
"feat" of Hashirama. It's as simple as that.  

Hashirama's speed is as good as old Hiruzen. End of discussion. That chapter ended all the Fan-fiction around Hashirama's speed. 



Nikushimi said:


> Tobirama's not in a good position to fight Itachi with such nonspecific intel; he may have some idea about fighting the Sharingan, but he doesn't know anything here about Tsukuyomi, which is a bit of a rule-breaker. Itachi doesn't have the complete picture either, but at least he's been given knowledge of Tobirama's most important Jutsu: Hiraishin.



- What different knowing about "Tsukuyomi" will make exactly? Like is Tobirama going to say "Oh my God! this is a "genjutsu" I must NOT allow myself to be put under it"

but when it comes to the "Tsukuyomi" he will say "I must try my luck with this "new" coming Genjutsu"??

It makes absolutly no different whether he knows about the Tsukuyomi or not. He will try to not be 
put under the Genjutsu either way, and won't try to test how powerful it may be.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

> Hashirama's speed is as good as old Hiruzen. End of discussion. That chapter ended all the Fan-fiction around Hashirama's speed.


If Hashirama's speed is only at the same level of old Hiruzen , he will be blitzed by base Minato or Tobirama until he dies , and that doesn't make a sens .


----------



## Trojan (Sep 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> If Hashirama's speed is only at the same level of old Hiruzen , he will be blitzed by base Minato or Tobirama until he dies , and that doesn't make a sens .



Tobirama's Shunshin is the same as him. He arrived with them as well. 

and yes, Minato's shunshin is FAR beyond them judging on
1- He arraived first, used the S/T barrier to redirect the TBB
2- his fast strikes (was praised by Tobirama for them) all around the Juubi (no one even noticed)
3- Having a conversation with his child

all before the rest of them making it to the field.


----------



## thechickensage (Sep 18, 2015)

Why would Tobi be able to FTG-tag a susanoo?  I think it wouldn't stick, like how amaterasu could be brushed off a bijuu chakra-infused cloak.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 18, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Why would Tobi be able to FTG-tag a susanoo?  I think it wouldn't stick, like how amaterasu could be brushed off a bijuu chakra-infused cloak.



I was not taking about the tag, but about the chakra link. 
It is different. Itachi will have to remove all of his chakra in that case.

he has not showing anything related to the chakra thing as far as I remember
(like sensing it, transferring it..etc)

and even the FTG tag itself, itachi will have to remove the the Susanoo and re-use it again if he wants to remove the tag. 
That should be more than enough to create an opening for Tobirama. Not as if itachi can keep the Susanoo up for long anyway.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

Tobirama wins.
- Superior speed
- Vast knowledge and experience fighting Uchiha and MS users
- Great sensory abilities (itachi aint surprising him)
-  Suiton can counter all itachis fire techniques
- Ftg exploits all itachis ms techniques
- Tobiramas stamina takes a flying thunder dump all over itachis poor stamina


----------



## ARGUS (Sep 18, 2015)

Tobirama wins this 

 -- susanoo is teleported 
 -- Amaterasu is evaded 
 -- clones and experience against uchiha reduce the probability of genjutsu 

Itachi then gets marked and finished


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

Complete_Ownage said:


> While Minato has the superior FTG and speed, Tobirama has better sensing and reflexes
> 
> Kind of a mute point



Lol, this guy is still trying.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

> and yes, Minato's shunshin is FAR beyond them judging on
> 1- He arraived first, used the S/T barrier to redirect the TBB
> 2- his fast strikes (was praised by Tobirama for them) all around the Juubi (no one even noticed)
> 3- Having a conversation with his child


*But Hashirama's Shunshin is slightly faster than Madara's* . And Madara is just an adult version of Sasuke , so yes , it's totaly inconsistant to say taht Hashirama's Shunshin is only at Hiruzen's level .

The 2 first Hokages are both slower than Minato but not to that extand , the fourth has the best Shunshin , so he traveled to the battlefiel at his full speed while the two Senju brothers just follow Hiruzen . And Sasuke is the same , he was late because he followed Juugo's speed that's all .

Plus Tobirama's Shunshin has never been surpassed in Sengoku era even by the adult version of Sasuke  , that's why he praised Minato's full speed .

Otherwise Hashirama will be horribly outclassed by Minato's FTG combos + Shunshin speed , he won't even have time to react, and I said it but doesn't make any sens , the Shodai isn't just an avergae Kage level .


----------



## Trojan (Sep 18, 2015)

> But Hashirama's Shunshin is slightly faster than Madara's


Give me the scene you're referring to. 



> And Madara is just an adult version of Sasuke ,


Not sure how is that relevant in any way, shape or form.



> so yes , it's totaly inconsistant to say taht Hashirama's Shunshin is only at Hiruzen's level .


Not in Kishi's manga. reread chapter 631 (I think that is the number).



> The 2 first Hokages are both slower than Minato but not to that extand , the fourth has the best Shunshin , so he traveled to the battlefiel at his full speed while the two Senju brothers just follow Hiruzen . And Sasuke is the same , he was late because he followed Juugo's speed that's all .



Baseless assumption. Tobirama was clearly rushed to go to the battle as fast as he could as shown when
he was not willing to stay their and listened to Sasuke's story. 



> Plus Tobirama's Shunshin has never been surpassed in Sengoku era even by the adult version of Sasuke , that's why he praised Minato's full speed .


Tobirama is fast with his FTG. Shunshin is the physical movement. 



> Otherwise Hashirama will be horribly outclassed by Minato's FTG combos + Shunshin speed , he won't even have time to react, and I said it but doesn't make any sens


Speed is most of the time nerfed in the manga for that exact reason. Why do you think KCM/BM Narudo does not
use his full speed most of the time except in very rare and critical events?
(Like redirecting the 5 TBBs, protecting the Hachibi and Kakashi...etc)

It's simply because speed is too broken. 


> the Shodai isn't just an avergae Kage level .


In term of Raw power, sure. In term of speed lol, no. 

Hashirama's used to be one of the strongest because of his Wood element (as stated in the Databook). He was never known/praised for his speed. That's fan-fiction.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

> Give me the scene you're referring to.


Both of them have the same Shunshin's speed .


Both Madara and Hashirama's clone cut the same distance here :

*Spoiler*: __ 








So yeah , Hashirama is slightly faster , since his childhood he was always slightly stronger than Madara at any field .



> Baseless assumption. Tobirama was clearly rushed to go to the battle as fast as he could as shown when
> he was not willing to stay their and listened to Sasuke's story.


At the beginning yeah , but since all Hokages were all going to use the red barrier , then they just followed Sarutobi and allow Minato , the fastest of them go speedily to the battlefield and make the prepations to use the Jutsu .

Plus you didn't say a thing about sasuke , so Old Hiruen Shunshin is faster than him and Sasuke = Juugo without CS .  . 



> Tobirama is fast with his FTG. Shunshin is the physical movement.


Nop Tobirama has the best Shunshin at Sengoku era , and very quick hand moves , yes he is below Minato at all that stuff , but he is near him .



> Speed is most of the time nerfed in the manga for that exact reason. Why do you think KCM/BM Narudo does not
> use his full speed most of the time except in very rare and critical events?
> (Like redirecting the 5 TBBs, protecting the Hachibi and Kakashi...etc)


No he did it all the time , it's simply that Kamui's ghost mode is instantly activated , that's all .



> In term of speed lol


Choose one of them :
-he has a normal Kage level speed , and gets severly striked by Minato or even die in one slash (Minato can cut Shinju's branches) .
-he has a high level speed (but Minato still faster) and can use huge Jutsus to defend himsel .


----------



## Rocky (Sep 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Not really. Tobirama has no real genjutsu defense or knowledge, unlike Bee, Sasuke, Kakashi, Kabuto, etc. did against Itachi in the manga. Itachi likely has historic knowledge of Tobirama. Tobirama also lacks the offense to get through even v1 Susano'o.



Every elite ninja has defense against genjutsu. Tayuya isn't top tier. Kai'ing out of it or using pain to break it can work. The Sharingan genjutsu is the actual threat because of the paralyzation thing. That said, Tobirama found a way to deal with it against Izuna and every other Uchiha he's fought, so I don't see it being a major player.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 18, 2015)

no reason for either of them to engage in cqc carelessly

quite a few tricks will get out of the bag. However the only danger to tobirama is genjutsu which with knowledge given will never fall for it. 

clone spam and hirashin alone will stop all of them. itachi eventually gets the izuna treatement


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Sep 18, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Minato's FTG = dozens upon dozens of kunai used as warping points, hence considerably greater mobility on the battlefield.



Yes that's already a known fact. This greatly helps Minato show superiority in FTG in large battles(see war arc) however in a straight 1v1 fight it's not THAT much of an advantage when the other is a better sensor and has reflexes on par if not greater 



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Lol, this guy is still trying.



Still trying to do what exactly? How often do you need to get trolled before you give up

What's wrong with my statement? I will wait 

Minato:
Superior speed - check
superior FTG - check

Tobirama:
Superior Sensor - check
Reflexes greater then Minato - check



Komnenos said:


> Rape jokes are always classy, congratulations.




Not sure if serious. If you cant distinguish between a harmless/funny post about a topic(esp a manga) and real life events then you are exactly one of those people of this current generation that needs help


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

> Reflexes greater then Minato - check


I can't find the passage when Tobirama show more reflexes than Minato .


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Sep 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> I can't find the passage when Tobirama show more reflexes than Minato .



Just re-read the war arc. 
We have seen Tobirama in Edo form(still not at 100% strength) show reflexes on par if not great then KCM/BM Minato

If you honestly think I'm claiming that Edo Tobirama or living Tobirama is even in the same league as Edo Minato your sadly mistaken.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

Show me the pages , I had already read the manga many times but I just can't find that .


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Every elite ninja has defense against genjutsu.



I meant special genjutsu defense because Itachi's been repeatedly presented as a special genjutsu user, unlike even other Uchiha. Even Genin Sakura knows standard defense against genjutsu, but standard defense is not a factor against Itachi's genjutsu.​


Rocky said:


> That said, Tobirama found a way to deal with it against Izuna and every other Uchiha he's fought, so I don't see it being a major player.



That's like saying because a ninja fights against Sasuke or Madara (clones) successfully, like Gaara or Mifune or the Gokage did, that it means Itachi's genjutsu usage isn't going to be a key factor in a match. It's bad reasoning because they're not genjutsu comparable. 

Moreover, when Orochimaru first fell victim to Itachi's genjutsu, he obviously knew of general Uchiha capabilities but noted that Itachi's hold on him was special. This is why high levels aren't afraid of looking at typical Sharingan. Typical users are less potent.

Tobirama also can't break even v1 Susano'o defense, which isn't taxing to Itachi and Itachi only ever needs to activate it when Tobirama or his (slower) clones are in pointblank range of him at the last instant, which is manageable.

On the other hand, all Itachi needs to do is use sneakier finger or crow genjutsu, which Tobirama has no knowledge of, to create an opening in Tobirama's defense (evasion) or otherwise catch him off guard _at much wider ranges_. This is much more doable.

If you recall, Tobirama even , suggesting that he's never actually fought an Uchiha with Itachi's genjutsu power, unless you believe Tobirama has better resistance or knowledge on Itachi than Sharingan Kakashi or Sage Kabuto. 

Ultimately, Tobirama supporters arguing that Tobirama dodges everything until Itachi keels over and dies is misguided and based on the flawed oversimplifications comparing Itachi to other Uchiha, even though Itach's been repeatedly presented as a special user.​


----------



## Nikushimi (Sep 18, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - What different knowing about "Tsukuyomi" will make exactly? Like is Tobirama going to say "Oh my God! this is a "genjutsu" I must NOT allow myself to be put under it"
> 
> but when it comes to the "Tsukuyomi" he will say "I must try my luck with this "new" coming Genjutsu"??
> 
> ...



With other Genjutsu, there is room for error; if Tobirama gets caught, he might still be able to break out of it. Tsukuyomi is different because it takes full effect instantly, so getting caught in it is game over. I'm not saying that's the deal-breaker in this match, though.

There are also other Genjutsu he doesn't know about--the finger Genjutsu and Izanami--but their effectiveness is less certain.


----------



## Alex Payne (Sep 18, 2015)

Knows about Uchihas more than 99.9% of Uchihas
Fought against Madara's brother for decades and eventually killed him
Fought countless other Uchihas
Instantly recognizes stuff like Kagutsuchi and Rikudo's Onmyoton
Itachi's genjutsu? Oh, hell no. That would totally be unexpected for him!

Come on, guys.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Sep 18, 2015)

Itachi has 10 fingers, but only needs one……… GG.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Sep 18, 2015)

Tobirama may know about the Uchihas and genjutsu, he may even have fought Izuna, whose Mangekyou abilities are unknown. But Itachi is to Uchihas what Tobirama is to Senjus, he is exceptional. 

The level of genjutsu Itachi has is among the top 5 in the history and way above the ones Tobirama may have seen while alive.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Show me the pages , I had already read the manga many times but I just can't find that .



He will show you some bull shi*. thats why i laughed at his post. Some fan fiction that he has conjured up from some place. 

Even convincing himself that the nine tails chakra affects reflexes lol, as if its raiton chakra mode. Hes proud because he can compare tobirama to a 1 armed minato


----------



## Rocky (Sep 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I meant special genjutsu defense because Itachi's a special genjutsu user. Even Genin Sakura knows standard defense against genjutsu, but standard defense is not a factor against Itachi's genjutsu.



Base Itachi's genjutsu is not immune to the defined defenses against genjutsu just because. That's my view at least. Itachi has not shown me anything "special" in genjutsu without his Sharingan.



Strategoob said:


> That's like saying because a ninja fights against Sasuke successfully, like Gaara or Mifune did, it means Itachi's genjutsu usage isn't going to work in a match. It's bad reasoning.



Neither Mifune or Gaara _grew up_ fighting against the Sharingan. Hell, neither Mifune or Gaara really even fought Sasuke. The guys that had a full-on battle with Sasuke had to deal with genjutsu.

You don't have any facts to suggest that Tobirama has no genjutsu defense, do you? You just asserted that without backing it. Why wouldn't Tobirama get the benefit of the doubt against something he's survived against _many_ times in the past? Why do you just assume he has no answer? 



Strategoob said:


> Tobirama also can't break even v1 Susano'o defense, which isn't taxing. All Itachi needs to do is use finger or crow genjutsu to create an opening in Tobirama's defense (evasion.)



Well one, Sasuke would probably disagree regarding the rib cage:



Two, Itachi's stock genjutsu may indeed create openings for him, which is why I said it was a "wild card." That said, it isn't like Tobirama can't create his own. Itachi & Tobirama are similar in overall level and competency, but I think the latter has the advantage because of his familiarity with Uchiha. That's it.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Knows about Uchihas more than 99.9% of Uchihas



Do you think he knosw more against Itachi than Orochimaru first did?



Alex Payne said:


> Fought against Madara's brother for decades and eventually killed him



Do you think Izuna is a stronger or more diverse genjutsu user than Itachi?



Alex Payne said:


> Fought countless other Uchihas



Are those Uchiha on Itachi's level? 



Alex Payne said:


> Instantly recognizes stuff like Kagutsuchi and Rikudo's Onmyoton



Is knowing mythical stories applicable to him having better knowledge on Itachi?



Alex Payne said:


> Itachi's genjutsu? Oh, hell no. That would totally be unexpected for him!



Does he know about the trickier finger or crow genjutsu?



Alex Payne said:


> Come on, guys.



Come on, Alex.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Base Itachi's genjutsu is not immune to the defined defenses against genjutsu just because.



It's not "just because." It's because it didn't work for Orochimaru, Deidara, etc. Even S-ranks don't kai out casually. Often times Itachi keeps them from even realizing they're in genjutsu.​


Rocky said:


> Neither Mifune or Gaara _grew up_ fighting against the Sharingan. Hell, neither Mifune or Gaara really even fought Sasuke. The guys that had a full-on battle with Sasuke had to deal with genjutsu.



Are all of the Gokage immune to all of Itachi's genjutsu tricks or jutsu since they fought five Madara clones for hours without succumbing to genjtusu? Seriously, what do you think?

What about all the ninja that ever fought Sharingan Kakashi and did well? Are they all immune to Itachi's genjutsu tricks and power as well? Because Kakashi's a hyped Sharingan user.​


Rocky said:


> You don't have any facts to suggest that Tobirama has no genjutsu defense, do you?



Oh, so you're granting him an unknown non-standard genjutsu defense similar to the ones Kakashi, Sasuke, Bee, and Sage Kabuto had to better deal with Itachi. That makes sense.​


Rocky said:


> Two, Itachi's stock genjutsu may indeed create openings for him, which is why I said it was a "wild card." That said, it isn't like Tobirama can't create his own. Itachi & Tobirama are similar in overall level and competency, but I think the latter has the advantage because of his familiarity with Uchiha. That's it.



The difference is Tobirama has no knowledge of Itachi's wildcards, his defensive jutsu won't counter those wildcards, and his wildcard is limited to pointblank range. None of that is true for Itachi.​


Rocky said:


> Well one, Sasuke would probably disagree regarding the rib cage:



Did he say that before or after he spammed MS for an extended amount of time? Itachi, in contrast, only needs v1 Susano'o when Tobirama comes in close, and genjutsu.​


----------



## Ghoztly (Sep 18, 2015)

Beating fodder Uchiha doesn't mean shit.

He isn't Hashirama, either. And he doesn't have the eyes to handle Itachi. So, thats 0/2.

Itachi curbstomp. He aint havin none that uchiha bigotry!


----------



## Rocky (Sep 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It's not "just because." It's because it didn't work for Orochimaru, Deidara, or basically anybody else caught in Itachi's genjutsu. People don't kai out of it casually. Often times Itachi keeps them from even realizing they're in one.



I'm not talking about his Sharingan genjutsu. I did make the distinction. I said "base" Itachi, and "without his Sharingan" he hasn't shown anything special.



Strategoob said:


> Are all of the Gokage immune to Itachi's genjutsu since they fought five Madara clones for hours without succumbing to genjtusu?



Straw mans everywhere. 

None of them grew up fighting Uchiha either. They fought a jobbing Madara for a few hours, and one of them actually did get caught... 

There's really no comparable situation in the manga you can bring up to help your point. 



Strategoob said:


> Oh, so you're granting him an unknown special genjutsu defense. That makes sense.





I'm not granting him anything specific. I said he's likely got a way to deal with or avoid being caught in visual genjutsu because he fought in a war for decades with people that could use visual genjutsu.

My view is _way_ more probable that "herpa derp Tobirama hasn't shown anything Sharingan GG."



Strategoob said:


> The difference is Tobirama has no knowledge of Itachi's wildcards, and his defense won't directly counter said wildcard, and his wildcard is limited to pointblank range. The same is not true for Itachi.



Tobirama's wild card is not Hiraishin. If I had to pick one for him, it would be Edo Tensei.



Strategoob said:


> Did he say that before or after he spammed MS for an extended amount of time? Itachi, in contrast, only needs v1 Susano'o when Tobirama comes in close, and genjutsu.



After, but we don't need to concern ourselves with what was causing the stress becuase Sasuke specifically mentions that it was Susano'o.


----------



## Alex Payne (Sep 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Do you think he knosw more against Itachi than Orochimaru first did?


 More general knowledge. And a lot more battle experience/battle knowledge.



Strategoob said:


> Do you think Izuna is a stronger or more diverse genjutsu user than Itachi?


 A good possibility. Izuna parallels both Tobirama and Itachi actually. Uchiha brother whose death made the other brother go batshit. Not really a good argument but simply being Tobirama's rival places him right into Itachi's Tier. And chances of him being genjutsu-oriented are as good as other specializations. Plus if Madara-Izuna are really similar to Sasuke-Itachi and Madara isn't the genjutsu brother...



Strategoob said:


> Are those Uchiha on Itachi's level?


 A good chance that there were some genjutsu specialists on comparable level in terms of genjutsu. Considering we have people like Shisui.



Strategoob said:


> Is knowing mythical stories applicable to him having better knowledge on Itachi?


 It shows that his knowledge goes on a further level than Itachi's abilities. He didn't just hear some fairy tales. He knew exactly what Onmyoton is and what it does. He knew exactly what Kagutsuchi(Tsukuyomi's brother tech) is and what it does.



Strategoob said:


> Does he know about the trickier finger or crow genjutsu?


 Do you really think that Itachi is the sole inventor and user of those moves? And do you really want to use _finger genjutsu_ as a viable move against Tobirama?



Strategoob said:


> Come on, Alex.


 Tobirama might lose to Itachi. But not because of those silly reason you are trying to push. It's Itachi-thread not Sound 4 one. Those kind of moves aren't going to work here.


----------



## Kai (Sep 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> But you know Itachi'd win if Kishi wrote the fight. Not only is Itachi his preferred and much more central character, but he highlighted Itachi as a tremendous hero in contrast to Tobirama who was portrayed as a misguided semi-racist in handling Uchiha.​


Itachi would probably be written to win by Kishi, by some split-second measure. Only because it's practically impossible for him to think a fight against Itachi would end in a toss-up. It's black and white results against Itachi. I'd imagine it would be quite close though, given what we know so far. Tobirama has all the experience and knowledge in the world for this fight to sway either way. Tobirama and Itachi are more or less the same level of elite in their respective clans.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm not talking about his Sharingan genjutsu. I did make the distinction. I said "base" Itachi, and "without his Sharingan" he hasn't shown anything special.



That's not true either. He reduced post-wind Naruto to his knees with his , and both Sakura and Chiyo combined their efforts to snap post-skip Naruto out of finger genjutsu. 

More on point, there was never a distinction made for the potency between finger and Sharingan genjutsu. On the contrary, post-wind Naruto considered .​


Rocky said:


> Straw mans everywhere. None of them grew up fighting Uchiha either. They fought a jobbing Madara for a few hours.



At a certain point, you have to acknowledge that nameless characters aren't a valid measurement. Orochimaru would slaughter-_plenty_ of nameless , but he lost to Itachi's illusions.

Similarly, you should stop assuming Izuna was a genjutsu beast _for Tobirama's benefi_t. People that tangle with Kakashi aren't always genjutsu resistant. Kakashi just dislikes using illusions much.​


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't know if you're just not counting Hiraishin, but Itachi's pretty far below A, who's below Minato.



Hiraishin isn't speed, so I'm not including it, no. Also, I think you might be confusing reaction speed with movement speed. Ei has a faster Shunshin (and general movement speed) than Minato does, but inferior reactions. Itachi's Shunshin and movement speed aren't far behind Minato's, even if his reactions are notably slower.​​


----------



## Kai (Sep 18, 2015)

A has greater reflexes compared to Minato. Shounensuki is just one of several translators who clarified this.



			
				Shounensuki said:
			
		

> 「雷影様の体内の神経伝達?反射のスピードは黄色い閃光に劣らない?こいつらよくついてきてい る方だ」
> "The Raikage-sama's neurotransmissions... The speed of his reflexes don't fall behind to [those of] the Yellow Flash... Those guys have been keeping up pretty well."
> 
> 「しかし反射を活性化するための雷遁チャクラをまとった以上写輪眼でも追いつけない」
> ...


----------



## Rocky (Sep 18, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Hiraishin isn't speed, so I'm not including it, no.



It's not physical movement speed, but it's a form of speed in this manga. Otherwise, you wouldn't have A claiming to be slower than Minato.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

@*Godaime Tsunade*

Shunshin and defensive moves are both generally much faster than basic offensive moves , but sometimes we see some exceptions , and it's a tangible proof of a very gigh level movement speed . It's the case of Itachi but also Minato and Tobirama :

The fourth was able to elaborate counterattack strategy , launch a Kunai and strike V2 Raikage (without Bee interfering) while he was in the middle of Shunshin and hasn't even advanced 1m , so maybe he hasn't a faster Shunshin but his movement are surly faster .

If V2 Raikage's moves were much faster , the fight would be like that :

*Spoiler*: __ 








Or that :

*Spoiler*: __ 








Minato and Tobirama have both at least incredibly fast moves/reaction speed + FTG (and eventualy an incredible Shunshin) . Itachi is in the same case , his Shunshin is notibly slower than V2 and V1 Raikage but his moves are much faster , even Sasuke's Sharingan can't see them while he can see throught Ei's moves . 

And since we don't have feats , it's pretty hard to say that Itachi's moves are faster or the reverse .


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 18, 2015)

> Their speed was not effected. Or it would have effected Minato's speed as well. The chapter simply
> show that people are overwanking/over thinking/over analyzing (whatever you want to call it) that
> "feat" of Hashirama. It's as simple as that.


Not at all. Tobirama & Madara both stated the brothers & Madara were not at full power.

Do not deny canon feats, Hussain. 

Traveling to a battlefield is not the same thing as speed feats in a battle. Yet you choose those over Hashirama's speed feats in a battle?

Why? Because Tobirama gave him a compliment on his Hirashin that he was spamming to get to the battlefield?

It's always about Minato with you dude. 



> Hashirama's speed is as good as old Hiruzen. End of discussion. That chapter ended all the Fan-fiction around Hashirama's speed.


1. Hashirama was a zombie, weaker than his living self
2. Tobirama was said to be faster than Hashirama & Madara by Madara, yet he arrives at the same time as Hashirama
3. Hiruzen isn't close to either of their speeds, arrives at the same time as Senju Brothers

That's not a feat. Hinata arrived to the battlefield before Rock Lee, she has better shunshin speed than him? [1] [2]

In fact, most of the alliance arrived to the battlefield at the same time [1]. Everyone in the alliance has equal speed? Everyone in Darui's brigade has equal shunshin speed to him? 

Base Killer Bee & KCM Naruto have equal shunshin? They arrived at the Jinchuriki at the same time [1] 

Want more examples?

Ninja traveling to a assumed battlefield cannot be used to determine battle shunshin feats. Especially since there is NO evidence proving any of them were shunshining to the battlefield. There's a thing called RUNNING to the battlefield.

Please post a caption proving Hashirama, Tobirama & Hiruzen were shunshining the entire way to the battlefield at their top speed. If you cannot, do not attempt to use that as a feat of speed.

After you've done that, try to form a counter argument for the shunshin feats I posted in-scan from the Madara vs. Hashirama fight.


----------



## Ghoztly (Sep 18, 2015)

The way Tobirama complimented Minato implied they were trying to get there quickly, and Minato easily beat them all there, and that's that.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 18, 2015)

Tobirama did admit his shunshin was inferior to minato's upon stepping on the battlefield. I mean when the fastest teleporter of his era say that(right after witnessing your speed)....*shrug* not much else to say.

Not stepping into that hashirama/hiruzen speed debate thing but minato did indeed dust all three of them dudes in movement speed.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

@*Kai*




V2 Raikage's reflexes<=base Minato reflexes , otherwise it doesn't make sens .


----------



## Kai (Sep 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> @*Kai*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A's reflexes are comparable to Minato's without considering the Raiton no Yoroi.

The lightning shroud allows A's reflexes to exceed Minato's. The scans found online are in line with what Shounen said anyways.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

No the translation I post here said it's counting , the Lightening armour allows Raikage to approach Minato's reflexes. Its the valid translation because in feats Minato's movements are much faster :

*Spoiler*: __ 



The fourth was able to elaborate counterattack strategy , launch a Kunai and strike V2 Raikage (without Bee interfering) while he was in the middle of Shunshin and hasn't even advanced 1m , so maybe he hasn't a faster Shunshin but his movement are surly faster .


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 18, 2015)

The official viz translation (yours is unofficial and incorrect) makes it clear shrouded A > Minato in reflexes. Minato is still much faster, however, because Hiraishin trumps shunshin by a great deal.​


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

> C: Lord Raikage's nerve transmissions and his reaction speed are on par with that of Konoha's yellow flash.....Impressive these folks are keeping up as well as they are. But Lord Raikage has manipulated raiton chakra to augment his reflexes! Not even the sharingan will be able to keep up with him. Plus, there's still...


If you are talking about that translation :

*Spoiler*: __ 



C: Lord Raikage's nerve transmissions and his reaction speed are on par with that of Konoha's yellow flash.....Impressive these folks are keeping up as well as they are. But Lord Raikage has manipulated raiton chakra to augment his reflexes! Not even the sharingan will be able to keep up with him. Plus, there's still...



Then , It's obviously V2 Raikage's reflexes<=base Minato *(Since when Ei fought Sasuke and Taka without lightening armour*), otherwise how would you explain the fact that Minato launch Kunai+used 2 times FTG+striked Raikage's at the back while he doesn't move a finger .


----------



## Ghoztly (Sep 18, 2015)

Not to be a downer. But the Raikage wanks himself hard and so do his subordinates, let's be real, Minato dunks on him and with ease. For crying out loud.

This isn't even a troll post, by the way. How the hell is some kid like that going to know how good Minato's reflexes are? Lmao.

I think that was what Kishi was going for anyways, those guys are way too cocky.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

For clarification purposes:



Im sure you can all see what it says in the caption about the yellow flash.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 18, 2015)

It says as fast. We already knew he's almost as fast as Minato's Hiraishin, but not quite so.​


----------



## ShadoLord (Sep 18, 2015)

Itachi's only hope is Tsukuyomi and I wouldn't put it past Tobirama to somehow negate/fend it off considering he defeated Madara's younger brother in a fight with moderate injuries.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

Minato's Hiraishin is instintaneous , or you can call it an infinite speed move even Yagai can't move at fast as a teleporrtation , all the stuff is about reflexes and basic moves .


----------



## Ghoztly (Sep 18, 2015)

Not sure why people keep bringing up Izuna, what exactly makes people think he's comparable to Itachi? Because he's Madara's brother?


----------



## ShadoLord (Sep 18, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Not sure why people keep bringing up Izuna, what exactly makes people think he's comparable to Itachi Because he's Madara's brother?



Izuna was stated to be almost as powerful as his older brother, Madara.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

Maybe Izune was equal to young MS Madara , that doesn't make him above Itachi's level , in fact the opposite is true because Madara was only limited to Susano'o as an MS Jutsu , plus Madara in that age wasn't necessary too strong so .


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It says as fast. We already knew he's almost as fast as Minato's Hiraishin, but not quite so.​



Lol nice try. Raikage is not as fast as instantaneous. Especially not when Raikage has already admitted being slower. (Minato and raikage race from hidden cloud to konoha, minato gets there instantly. Raikage take a few hours to reach konoha. To you thats just as fast right )

Its literally repeating what Cee said. "Praised to be as fast as the yellow flash". Praised by who? Cee! (nerve transmission and reaction speed on par with yellow flash).

Why do people here have reading and comprehension difficulty. Honestly, some of you shouldnt be allowed to read the manga. This clown just said hiraishin is as fast as the raikage in rcm


----------



## Ghoztly (Sep 18, 2015)

Exactly what I was thinking lol, because Cee obviously knows everything!


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Exactly what I was thinking lol, because Cee obviously knows everything!



Cee doesnt know everything. But his statement is at least backed up by the databook. Plus its not like cee was just wanking, its probably just him stating what he knows by reputation. Which os obviously the raiakge and minato being on par back in the day. They both fought each other several times, which many people would have been aware of during those times. Just like the how eveyone knows the legends of hashirama vs madara battle.


----------



## Ghoztly (Sep 18, 2015)

Anyways, all wanking aside, physically it should be impossible for him to keep up with the FTG just in logic alone when you think about it.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Anyways, all wanking aside, physically it should be impossible for him to keep up with the FTG just in logic alone when you think about it.


Hence why its referring to minatos normal speed/shunshin. Theres a reason killer bee compared his shunshin to minato and not his brothers.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 18, 2015)

Wasn't he comparing it to Minato's FTG speed?

He compared him to Minato because he was the only other dude to avoid Ei's super speed punch. And Minato used FTG to avoid it, not his shunshin.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

> comparing it to Minato's FTG speed


I don't know if you are trolling but Minato's FTG is infinite speed , even Juubi Jinchurikis and 8 gates Gai , can't keep up with it , it's the third time I say it .


----------



## ShadoLord (Sep 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Maybe Izune was equal to young MS Madara , that doesn't make him above Itachi's level , in fact the opposite is true because Madara was only limited to Susano'o as an MS Jutsu , plus Madara in that age wasn't necessary too strong so .



That's like saying Tobirama never got any stronger as well.


----------



## Kyu (Sep 18, 2015)

I take C's comment with a grain of salt. Minato is unarguably faster than a kid who avoided Ei's standard raiton no yoroi: elbolt with little effort. 

Full Power RnY Ei > Base Minato w/o FTG ~> Normal RnY Ei


Base Ei isn't even on the radar.


----------



## Ghoztly (Sep 18, 2015)

Well, to his credit Sasuke isn't exactly slow either, but yeah I might have to agree with you.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Wasn't he comparing it to Minato's FTG speed?
> 
> He compared him to Minato because he was the only other dude to avoid Ei's super speed punch. And Minato used FTG to avoid it, not his shunshin.



Im talking about narutos shunshin blitz on kisame. Bee said it was the shunshin and resembled the yellow flash. Yamato also stated it to be similar. That entire scene mirrors minatos shunshinthat he used to catch baby naruto. Ftg doesnt even make sense to be compared to imo


Kyu said:


> I take C's comment with a grain of salt. Minato is unarguably faster than a kid who avoided Ei's standard raiton no yoroi: elbolt with little effort.
> 
> Full Power RnY Ei > Base Minato w/o FTG ~> Normal RnY Ei
> 
> ...



I think im missing something, what was wrong with cees statement, what he said was not wrong?


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

Kyu said:


> I take C's comment with a grain of salt. Minato is unarguably faster than a kid who avoided Ei's standard raiton no yoroi: elbolt with little effort.
> 
> Full Power RnY Ei > Base Minato w/o FTG ~> Normal RnY Ei
> 
> ...



I think im missing something, what was wrong with cees statement, what he said was not wrong?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> I don't know if you are trolling but Minato's FTG is infinite speed , even Juubi Jinchurikis and 8 gates Gai , can't keep up with it , it's the third time I say it .


Infinite speed? Lmao. 

Minato has to react to use it, which is dependent upon his ocular speed. 

There's actually a panel of him struggling to use it fast enough, literally thinking to himself about how he has to hurry to use it. The dude can actually think about using it in sentence-form to himself before using it. 

Jubito took the dudes arm off and placed a Goudama on him, this is when he had the ocular perception increase of Kyuubi Chakra Mode. That means he's slower, even with FTG. What's worse is he didn't even perceive him putting the Goudama on him, Obito had to tip him off that he put it there before it exploded. 

Killer Bee is clearly alluding to Minato's ability to avoid Ei with FTG, which is clearly dependent upon perception and cognition resulting in mentally activating the technique, which is a form of speed.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Infinite speed? Lmao.
> 
> Minato has to react to use it, which is dependent upon his ocular speed.
> 
> ...



Lol, you said ocular. kcm isnt dojutsu/sharingan. Also kcm doesnt increase perception, sage mode does.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

> nfinite speed? Lmao.
> 
> Minato has to react to use it, which is dependent upon his ocular speed.
> 
> There's actually a panel of him struggling to use it fast enough, literally thinking to himself about how he has to hurry to use it.


Yeah I agree Minato should see throught the ennemi's attack before activating FTG (and he was able to see throught Yagai moves  ) , and it's the same for the Raikage , and now we are not comparing their reaction speed at all .

so my version 
FTG move = infinite speed
V2 Raikage's Shunshin = limited speed 

or you version wich include reaction speed :
FTG move = reaction speed + infinite speed 
V2 Shunshin = reaction speed + limited speed 




> Jubito took the dudes arm off and placed a TBB on him, this is when he had the ocular perception increase of Kyuubi Chakra Mode.


Yeah I agree with you the second time , *and that's because unlike the V2 Raikage , Juubito's moves are faster than Minato's , if Minato want to attack him in close range he will be blitzed , if he wants just to escape he can easily do it , same senario against Yagai *


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 18, 2015)

> Lol, you said ocular. kcm isnt dojutsu/sharingan. Also kcm doesnt increase perception, sage mode does.


It certainly does increase perception speed, unless you think Base Naruto can perceive V2 Ei's shunshin.



> Yeah I agree Minato should see throught the ennemi's attack before activating FTG (and he was able to see throught Yagai moves  ) , and it's the same for the Raikage , and now we are not comparing their reaction speed at all .


Yes we are, Killer Bee was directly comparing Naruto's ability to avoid Ei to Minato's ability to avoid Ei, where he used FTG. 



> so my version
> FTG move = infinite speed
> V2 Raikage's Shunshin = limited speed


FTG isn't proven to be instant, even when it's activated. All it's proven to be is "God Like Speed" and faster than everyone else.



> or you version wich include reaction speed :
> FTG move = reaction speed + infinite speed
> V2 Shunshin = reaction speed + limited speed


It's not my version, it's the manga's version.

Killer Bee is comparing KCM Naruto's ability to avoid Ei to Minato previously avoiding him many times, where he used his perception and cognition speed to activate the Flying Thunder God Technique and avoid him. 



> Yeah I agree with you the second time , *and that's because unlike the V2 Raikage , Juubito's moves are faster than Minato's , if Minato want to attack him in close range he will be blitzed , if he wants just to escape he can easily do it , same senario against Yagai *


*I agree, of course it depends on the distance.*


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

> I agree, of course it depends on the distance.


I was talking about Juubi Jinjurikis not Raikage  . Minato's moves are much faster .


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 18, 2015)

I know you were, hbcatain.

And yes, I know full well Minato is capable of blitzing and reacting at speeds faster than Ei.


----------



## Kyu (Sep 18, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Im talking about narutos shunshin blitz on kisame. Bee said it was the shunshin and resembled the yellow flash. Yamato also stated it to be similar. That entire scene mirrors minatos shunshinthat he used to catch baby naruto. Ftg doesnt even make sense to be compared to imo
> 
> 
> I think im missing something, what was wrong with cees statement, what he said was not wrong?



Wait a sec, didn't Cee say some silly shit along the lines of Minato & base Ei's reaction speed being on par with one another or is that an inaccurate translation?


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> It certainly does increase perception speed, unless you think Base Naruto can perceive V2 Ei's shunshin.
> 
> Yes we are, Killer Bee was directly comparing Naruto's ability to avoid Ei to Minato's ability to avoid Ei, where he used FTG.
> 
> ...


No it does not increase perception, dont know where you fot that from or where it was said or why you are referring to it as ocular. Naruto took a head start, built up momentum and avoided using shunshin. Naruto is a sensor in kcm, so he can react to things better than he can in base. That does not mean his perception was increased in that mode. Minato was already a sensor in life, so theres no difference.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 18, 2015)

Kyu said:
			
		

> Wait a sec, didn't Cee state Minato & base Ei's reaction speed were on par with one another or is that an inaccurate translation?


Cee was talking the whole time about RCM Raikage . .



			
				DaVizWiz said:
			
		

> And yes, I know full well Minato is capable of blitzing and reacting at speeds faster than Ei.


So yeah now I agree , it's the first time .


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Wait a sec, didn't Cee say horseshit along the lines of Minato & base Ei's reaction speed being on par with one another or is that an inaccurate translation?



He said raikages nerve transmissions and reaction speed are on par with minatos, same as what the databook said. What some people also forget is what cee said after.

He said he was surprised/impressed that these guys (taka) were managing to keep up. What many also forget is that raikage was in rcm when cee said that. In fact raiakge was in rcm from the moment he stepped in to battle. And cee said he was impressed that taka were keeping up. Which can only mean he was referring to rcm, because he wouldnt say minatos on par with base ei, yet praise the likes of jugo, suigetsu and sasuke for keeping up.

Otherwise that means taka is above minato and are on par with raikage in rcm sonce they were keeping up. Suigetsu intercepted rcm raikage and jugo reacted to his blitz and blocked him. And sasuke fully evaded his elbow. Minato is obviously above all of them, so its obviously rcm cee was referring to, just like the db says. The wording is a little weird, but i have no doubt thats what kishi was saying. Because how can taka keep up with rcm raikage, yet minato is only base raikage tier, that doesnt remotely make sense.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 18, 2015)

> No it does not increase perception, dont know where you fot that from or where it was said or why you are referring to it as ocular. Naruto took a head start, built up momentum and avoided using shunshin. Naruto is a sensor in kcm, so he can react to things better than he can in base. That does not mean his perception was increased in that mode. Minato was already a sensor in life, so theres no difference.


Ocular means the ability to see an attack in it's progression. KCM Naruto saw V2 Ei's shunshin attack in it's progression, he then moved out of it's path nearing the end. He was running in the opposite direction when Ei blitzed him, this proves he saw him as he was attacking because he stopped then moved in the other direction to avoid it. 

Base Naruto cannot see the start, the progression, or the ending of V2 Ei's shunshin attack.

If you honestly think the only thing KCM does is increase your shunshin speed and give you malice sense, you're an idiot. It enhances every aspect of Naruto's speed, including his physical reflexes, his ability to perceive high-speed attacks and his speed in thinking to move to avoid the attack, allowing him to initiate the shunshin to avoid the attack.

This is why KCM Naruto was able to erect a chakra arm to catch FRS as it passed the 3rd Raikage, several times, because he _saw_ it pass him. This had nothing to do with malice sense, because he was the one attacking the Raikage.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 18, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Ocular means the ability to see an attack in it's progression. KCM Naruto saw V2 Ei's shunshin attack in it's progression, he then moved out of it's path nearing the end. He was running in the opposite direction when Ei blitzed him, this proves he saw him as he was attacking because he stopped then moved in the other direction to avoid it.
> 
> Base Naruto cannot see the start, the progression, or the ending of V2 Ei's shunshin attack.



He sensed where ei would come from. Its his sensory ability. Something base naruto doesnt have at all. 

Also read the page again. Naruto already had his head turned/was facing eis direction before ei charged at him with v2. Naruto kept his eyes on him the whole time. Ei ran straight towards him, so all naruto needed to do was react before getting hit. Whoch is where his sensory ability comes in.

Still havent proved this enhanced perception fallacy. Was never stated ever.

Doesnt increase all physical abilities at all. His running speed is exactly the same as base, all he got from it was shunshin. When he runs, its same as his base. When he shunshins, its improved. No idea what your chakra arm nonsense has to do with perception Its his attack, he knew what he was doing and timed and executed those rasenshuriken manoeuvres. Rcm heghtens the nerve transmissions, tell me where its shown or said that kcm has the same effect as lughting chakra augmenting naruto. Dont try it.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 18, 2015)

This dude didn't even sense a Mokuton root under his foot about to trip him, which it did. He failed to sense the bubble behind him against Utakata, which he ran into and exploded, damaging his arm. He failed to sense Han's Steam Armor kick, which hit him right square in the face. 

For an attack as fast as V2 Ei he was definitely depending upon his perception, there's no level of logic that would suggest his malice detection would work for an attack that fast when it fails to detect slower and arguably stationary attacks (bubble). 

Lmao, Base Naruto can run as fast as KCM Naruto?

Please, show the scan where Base Naruto is capable of running fast enough to elude an opponent like Rinnegan Obito.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2015)

Lol
And yet base minato can hirashin twice before gai can move 


Sm gives better reactions than KCM. 

I think most fail to understand that A is incapable of blitzing anyone V2 or not without them reacting or being able to see his attack

What they won't be able to do is move out of the way at all. A car going at 90mph coming at me isn't something i wouldn't see

I sure as hell cant get out of the way though 

KCM doesn't improve any perception . It gives u sensing which allows u to be aware of the attack earlier than normal 


I.e he would have picked up on A having moved location since he can accurately sense where he is 

Sensing however isn't perfect . Dodging a super fast linear attack isn't the same or remotely close to dodging an attack U didn't see coming 

Take sasuke failing to counter 7 sword style yet easily avoids bee in 3 tails mode


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol
> And yet base minato can hirashin twice before gai can move
> 
> 
> ...



It has been proven time and time, *time and time again*, that 8th Gate Gai wasnt moving in his full speed before hitting Juubidara with his 5th EE step. 

And you have to prove that base Naruto could see V2 Ei and react to him, not physically, but mentally. That "car" example is a bad example, to be honest. When you have any proof, then we can talk.


----------

