# Sage Mode Jiraiya vs Itachi Uchiha



## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

*Knowledge*: Full Intel For Both Parties

This means Itachi knows all of Jiraiya's jutsu and about his genjutsu & senjutsu
This means Jiraiya knows all Itachi's MS techs and that he stopped Orochimaru's advances with genjutsu
*Mindset*: In-Character

This means that all non-spammable high chakra coating attacks are not going to be used at the very start of the battle. And will follow the flow of a manga battle as it should
*Distance*: 50 Meters

About half the distance of an American Football Field
We WILL keep in mind the range limits for ALL attacks
*Restricted*: Koto Crow, Edo Form related feats (Having regenerative chakra and health opens a lot of doors that otherwise would not have been available), Boruto Related Feats for Jiraiya (it's just too much)

*Location*:


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## Turrin (Dec 28, 2019)

Jiraiya who gets to start in SM with Full Knowledge would beat Itachi. He would know about Itachi illness and know he basically just had to keep the pressure on Itachi until he exhausted himself, which he can easily do as Itachi needs Susanoo to defend Jiraiya Senpo Techniques as he has nothing to defend them with outside that. Jiriaya also has a solid delay Techniques like Yomi Nina, Toad Stomach, Deep Fryer, and Frog-Call that wouldn’t stop Itachi but would slow him down. The battlefield here is also extremely useful for Jiriaya to hide and use gorilla tactics as he did against Pain.


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## Trojan (Dec 28, 2019)

Jiraiya wins as per canon, and as per the portrayal in the manga (Sages > MS users)


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## Djomla (Dec 28, 2019)

This time he would... Run away faster.


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## PocketGod (Dec 28, 2019)




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## blk (Dec 28, 2019)

Jiraya falls the moment Susanoo is used.

Normally i would argue that something like Shunshin blitz + Genjutsu is enough (as per canon), but with Jman already in SM and with full knowledge that ain't gonna happen.

Amaterasu is countered via sensing that it is coming + smoke bombs.

So with Genjutsu + Ama being useless, Itachi can only rely on Susanoo.

With it, even some lower skeletal form, any ninjutsu Jiraya can use on is useless and tanked.

Jiraya's only chance would be the Sound Genjutsu, but since Itachi also has full knowledge that will simply not happen.

When Susanoo is activated, Itachi will rush towards Jiraya, tanking everything thrown at him, and slash the Sannin with the insane slashing speed of Susanoo. Which Jman can't dodge for long (after a few slashes he will likely get hit).

So Itachi wins high diff after their initial fighting clash, when Susanoo is brought up and used.

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## Trojan (Dec 28, 2019)

blk said:


> Jiraya falls the moment Susanoo is used.



nonsense.

Frog Call, Frog Song, underworld swarm.

All of them will fodderstomps Susanoo and itachi at the same time.


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## Bonly (Dec 28, 2019)

Jiraiya can put up a bit of a fight but once Itachi starts using the MS jutsu Jiraiya is gonna get overwhelmed shortly after

Reactions: Like 1


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## blk (Dec 28, 2019)

Hussain said:


> nonsense.
> 
> Frog Call, Frog Song, underworld swarm.
> 
> All of them will fodderstomps Susanoo and itachi at the same time.



Already addressed Frog Song in my post. Jman won't be able to use it.

Yomi Numa is useless, Susanoo takes Itachi out of it (but likely Itachi simply predicts it by Jman's hand seals and simply jumps).

Frog Call is dodged lol.

Also Jiraya doesn't have much time after Itachi goes to him with Susanoo, really a few slashes are enough to hit and thus kill Jman. Its slashing speed is too fast.

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## Trojan (Dec 28, 2019)

blk said:


> Already addressed Frog Song in my post. Jman won't be able to use it.


No reason why he can't. He did against a much stronger opponent (Pain).



blk said:


> Yomi Numa is useless, Susanoo takes Itachi out of it (but likely Itachi simply predicts it by Jman's hand seals and simply jumps).


How? 
Sasuke can't protect him from an underground attack, so no, he can't take itachi out of it. 

- nonsense. Handseals doesn't tell you how the jutsu coming your way looks like. Deidara uses Earth-style, is his bombs anything
related to Jman's swamp? Didn't think so either...



blk said:


> Frog Call is dodged lol.


How? 



blk said:


> Also Jiraya doesn't have much time after Itachi goes to him with Susanoo, really a few slashes are enough to hit and thus kill Jman. Its slashing speed is too fast.


a Kunai is also enough to kill itachi.

Do you have a proof that Susanoo's sword can get a SM user, when we know they have good sensing and ability to dodge danger?

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## Sufex (Dec 28, 2019)

Its over once the MS comes out

Itachi mid diff


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## Omote (Dec 28, 2019)

Jiraiya gets shown the real meaning of fodder as he gets stomped by 5 seconds from dying Itachi just like Orochimaru did


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Its over once the MS comes out
> 
> Itachi mid diff



Make argumentative reasonings. Not opinionated statements


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## Trojan (Dec 28, 2019)

Omote said:


> Jiraiya gets shown the real meaning of fodder as he gets stomped by 5 seconds from dying Itachi just like Orochimaru did


But itachi was shown how much of a fodder he is, and he had to run with his tail between his legs...


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## MaruUchiha (Dec 28, 2019)

Itachi already mid diffs, but with full knowledge he low diffs. He's gonna waste no time and go for a Fireball Jutsu laced with Amaterasu, or Susanoo from jump where he seals Ma or Pa with Totsuka Blade cancelling Jiraiya's Sage Mode along with any hope he had of winning here


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## blk (Dec 28, 2019)

Hussain said:


> No reason why he can't. He did against a much stronger opponent (Pain).
> 
> 
> How?
> ...



Nope, Itachi >> the 3 Paths of Pain that Jiraya fought. Also their arsenal is different so it's an irrelevant comparison anyway.

Itachi has shown that he can have his Susanoo stay separated from him. So it can pick Itachi out of the swamp if needed.
The Sharingan should see the chakra molding underneath him anway.

Frog Call doesn't seem that fast. Itachi can see it with the Sharingan and dodge it.
Also it's unlikely it can stop for long something as strong as Susanoo.

SM Jiraya is only marginally faster than the Paths (who are comparable to Kakashi, Sasuke, etc), and that kind of speed isn't enough to consistently dodge Susanoo from the short range.
We see that in Sasuke vs Danzo, in how Sasuke almost blitzed Edo Itachi (in the forest) with the Susanoo arm, how Oro and Nagato were blitzed by Totsuka before they could mentally react, etc.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Itachi already mid diffs, but with full knowledge he low diffs. He's gonna waste no time and go for a Fireball Jutsu laced with Amaterasu, or Susanoo from jump where he seals Ma or Pa with Totsuka Blade cancelling Jiraiya's Sage Mode along with any hope he had of winning here



In your scenario is Jiraiya just standing still or has this become a turn-based battle where Itachi gets the first 2 moves?


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## Trojan (Dec 28, 2019)

blk said:


> Nope, Itachi >> the 3 Paths of Pain that Jiraya fought. Also their arsenal is different so it's an irrelevant comparison anyway.


no, he isn't. itachi will collapse against Animal path on his own.  



blk said:


> Itachi has shown that he can have his Susanoo stay separated from him. So it can pick Itachi out of the swamp if needed.


Do you have proof that his entire Susanoo won't sink, to begin with? The swamp is much larger than the Susanoo anyway... 



blk said:


> The Sharingan should see the chakra molding underneath him anway.


fanfiction.

Otherwise, please do post something to prove your point. 



blk said:


> Frog Call doesn't seem that fast. Itachi can see it with the Sharingan and dodge it.
> Also it's unlikely it can stop for long something as strong as Susanoo.


it's sound, it's as fast as any other sound. So, I don't know what are you talking about.
We literally have seen itachi fall for sound-based move twice. 
- Susanoo is completely irrelevant. It will bypass it as if it isn't there at all.



blk said:


> SM Jiraya is only marginally faster than the Paths (who are comparable to Kakashi, Sasuke, etc), and that kind of speed isn't enough to consistently dodge Susanoo from the short range.


He doesn't only have that speed, he has sensing on top of it. Which neither of them have...

Also, Jman is mainly a mid-long range fighter. No reason for him to get into short-range...

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## Zero890 (Dec 28, 2019)

The Manga says Jiraiya wins, i believe in it.


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## Sufex (Dec 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Make argumentative reasonings. Not opinionated statements


Sorry man I've just been taking a note out of your books recently. I was gonna ask to compare our social medias next but thought that was too far. Ill strive to be better shazzy.

As long as you dont make anymore spite threads


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## blk (Dec 28, 2019)

Hussain said:


> no, he isn't. itachi will collapse against Animal path on his own.
> 
> 
> Do you have proof that his entire Susanoo won't sink, to begin with? The swamp is much larger than the Susanoo anyway...
> ...



Well i disagree. But Itachi vs 3 Paths of Pain is a debate for another time so...

Susanoo's lower part floats, so it won't be stuck on the swamp.

Itachi and Sasuke saw Kabuto's snakes all around the cave and behind the rock pillars, so yes the Sharingan can see chakra.
Jiraya infusing his chakra to manipulate the terrain will be seeing like any other utilization of chakra.

Itachi with Shunshin is definitely faster than sound and he mentally reacted to something too faster than sound (lighting). So when he will see Ma&Pa accumulating chakra he will be already prepared, then when the sound comes out he will be able to see and mentally react to it (since it is a ninjutsu and thus made of chakra) and jump away with Shunshin.

Itachi will force close range by running to him with Susanoo active.

Jman might have sensing but it isn't very good sensing, as he couldn't perceive Asura Path behind him. Therefore his sensing won't be useful since his normal mental reactions are better already.
If Oro and Nagato got blitzed no diff it means that Jman doesn't have the needed speed anyway (since he is slightly slower than Itachi, but Susanoo slashing speed is much faster than Itachi himself so...).


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## Trojan (Dec 28, 2019)

blk said:


> Susanoo's lower part floats, so it won't be stuck on the swamp.


no, it doesn't float... 



blk said:


> Itachi and Sasuke saw Kabuto's snakes all around the cave and behind the rock pillars, so yes the Sharingan can see chakra.
> Jiraya infusing his chakra to manipulate the terrain will be seeing like any other utilization of chakra.


Don't see how the snakes are related to this exactly. And it's not like the swap will take a minute to form once Jman uses it anyway. 



blk said:


> Itachi with Shunshin is definitely faster than sound and he mentally reacted to something too faster than sound (lighting). So when he will see Ma&Pa accumulating chakra he will be already prepared, then when the sound comes out he will be able to see and mentally react to it (since it is a ninjutsu and thus made of chakra) and jump away with Shunshin.


citation needed. Please do show us where was his speed stated or shown to be faster than sound.



blk said:


> Jman might have sensing but it isn't very good sensing, as he couldn't perceive Asura Path behind him. Therefore his sensing won't be useful since his normal mental reactions are better already.
> If Oro and Nagato got blitzed no diff it means that Jman doesn't have the needed speed anyway (since he is slightly slower than Itachi, but Susanoo slashing speed is much faster than Itachi himself so...).


Asura path situation is not the same as itachi's tho... :danl

Or let's use your logic on the second previous point. itachi might have good Shunshin, but it's not a good Shunshin.
He fell to both Kabuto's sound based moves, so he will fall to them again here.

Why does this only apply to Jman, but not itachi exactly?

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## MaruUchiha (Dec 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> In your scenario is Jiraiya just standing still or has this become a turn-based battle where Itachi gets the first 2 moves?


I never said Itachi would do both i said one or the other. Anyway Jiraiya wouldn't have time to counter either. He'd be too busy countering Fireball Jutsu to do anything about the incoming black flames. Or if Itachi goes for Totsuka Blade instead I'd love to know what you think Jiraiya can do in time when Itachi can form Susanoo as fast as a Kirin bolt and Totsuka Blade is so fast both it's on panel targets couldn't mentally react to it


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> I never said Itachi would do both i said one or the other. Anyway Jiraiya wouldn't have time to counter either. He'd be too busy countering Fireball Jutsu to do anything about the incoming black flames. Or if Itachi goes for Totsuka Blade instead I'd love to know what you think Jiraiya can do in time when Itachi can form Susanoo as fast as a Kirin bolt and Totsuka Blade is so fast both it's on panel targets couldn't mentally react to it



Full Intel means Jiraiya is fully aware of these things. IC mindset also veers away from the possibility of Itachi wanting to use his most chakra/health taxing attacks from the start as per OP (and as per the manga version of living Itachi). Distance suggests that certain attacks will not reach without first closing significant ground first.


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Nobody has ever explained why Itachi couldn’t control Fukasaku or Shima for 0.5 seconds and have then decapitate Jiraiya.

Full knowledge and distance helps Jiraiya have a chance, but they aren’t winning blind IMO and one genjutsu ends it.


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## Turrin (Dec 28, 2019)

blk said:


> Jiraya falls the moment Susanoo is used.
> 
> Normally i would argue that something like Shunshin blitz + Genjutsu is enough (as per canon), but with Jman already in SM and with full knowledge that ain't gonna happen.
> 
> ...


Why do you assume Susanoo slashing speed is insane. Kabuto was dodging Susanoo easily in SM (at times 2 Susanoo) and the Gokage (except Tsunade but it doesn’t matter if she gets hit, & she is the slowest of the Gokage in CQC) we’re evading and reacting to Madara Susanoo attacks throughout the battle. It’s essentially a myth that Susanoo is some ultra fast thing that can’t be reacted to easily by most Kages.

I feel somehow arrived at the faulty assumption that  Susanoo is ultra fast due to to fandom; and the fact that Danzo a slow old man; had trouble evading it (even though he did evade at times), as well as disembodied Orochimaru (who again had no incentive to dodge & isn’t that fast) couldn’t avoid it.


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Why do you assume Susanoo slashing speed is insane. Kabuto was dodging Susanoo easily in SM; and the Gokage (except Tsunade but it doesn’t matter if she gets hit, & she is the slowest of the Gokage in CQC) we’re evading and reacting to Madara Susanoo attacks throughout the battle. It’s essentially a myth that Susanoo is some ultra fast thing that can’t be reacted to easily by most Kages.



Sage Kabuto is _waaaaaaaaaay_ faster and more reflexive than “most Kages”. He dodged a Susano’o arrow which WA Kakashi with 3-tomoe prediction and top level reflexes couldn’t physically react to at all.

The Totsuka is seen as fast because Nagato and Orochimaru made no indication that they saw it coming at all despite it crossing dozens if not hundreds of feet to pierce them. Kaguya’s Will did call it an invincible offense, not an easily dodged offense.

Clones are typically slower than originals and get punked more easily, so I don’t know why the same wouldn’t be true of cloned Susano’o. Imagining Tsunade dodging 5 Itachis and 5 of his Susano’o is just a very desperate belief IMO. Madara was toying around and his clones and techniques were slower in general.

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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> Nobody has ever explained why Itachi couldn’t control Fukasaku or Shima for 0.5 seconds and have then decapitate Jiraiya.
> 
> Full knowledge and distance helps Jiraiya have a chance, but they aren’t winning blind IMO and one genjutsu ends it.



They aren't blind. Full intel grants the awareness to use clones and smoke screens while utilizing sage sensing and Ma's tongue tracking techniques that allowed her to locate the chameleon.


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## Turrin (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> Sage Kabuto is waaaay faster than “most Kages”. He dodged a Susano’o arrow which WA Kakashi couldn’t physically react to at all.


Sage-Mode Kabuto isn’t way faster then most Kages; he simply has prediction hax. Prediction hax doesn’t do anything against Susanoo Arrows; as it’s obvious as hell what attack is going to be used and it’s a straight forward Arrow shot. He was able to dodge easily because in SM his speed is able to dodge it.(Prediction only matters if your body can physically pull out the speed to move anyway).

When it comes to Kakashi; it should be noted that an arrow is faster then a sword slash; and Sasuke used 2 arrows at the same time to pin down Kakashi ( who for whatever reason waited to react till both arrows were already fired instead of reacting to Sasuke knocking the bow itself). But irregardless I’m not saying all Kages can evade it consistently. I’m saying they ca react to it; which is exactly what Kakashi did, when he reacted and used Kamui to defend himself


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> They aren't blind. Full intel grants the awareness to use clones and smoke screens while utilizing sage sensing and Ma's tongue tracking techniques that allowed her to locate the chameleon.



Sage sensing won’t be adequate when Itachi feinted Sage Kabuto, a better Sage with much better sensing and reflex feats.

Sage Jiraiya was blindsided by Asura Path, who was effortlessly destroyed by Pain Arc Naruto, who was much worse than Sage Kabuto who is comparable if not superior to WA Sage Naruto.


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## Trojan (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> a better Sage


Kabuto has animal-like transformation the same like Jman...



> who was much worse than Sage Kabuto.




Naruto's SM > Kabuto's
he has zero transformation (animal-like)


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Kabuto has animal-like transformation the same like Jman...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A better measurement might be that Kabuto doesn’t need two actual Sages on his shoulder feeding him natural energy. He does it naturally and effortlessly, which only War Arc Naruto was capable of. Even Pain Arc Naruto has to rely on a clone strategy.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> Sage sensing won’t be adequate when Itachi feinted Sage Kabuto, a better Sage with much better sensing and reflex feats.
> 
> Sage Jiraiya was blindsided by Asura Path, who was effortlessly destroyed by Pain Arc Naruto, who was much worse than Sage Kabuto who is comparable if not superior to WA Sage Naruto.



Go back and read OP thoroughly first. But asura attacked Jiraiya with his back turned and after he let his guard down, as Asura path himself stated. What you said is an exaggeration.


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Go back and read OP thoroughly first. But asura attacked Jiraiya with his back turned and after he let his guard down, as Asura path himself stated.



The purpose of a clone feint is to attack an opponent with their back turned and their guard down, as they focus on the clone.


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## Turrin (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> A better measurement might be that Kabuto doesn’t need two actual Sages on his shoulder feeding him natural energy. He does it naturally and effortlessly, which only War Arc Naruto was capable of. Even Pain Arc Naruto has to rely on a clone strategy.


You know who else doesn’t need to? The two Sages on Jiriaya’s shoulders. Jiraiya SM is a fusion of 3 Sages.

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## Trojan (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> A better measurement might be that Kabuto doesn’t need two actual Sages on his shoulder feeding him natural energy.


I honestly think that's an advantage. Why wouldn't you want 2 frogs, that can assist you with all types of jutsu?


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I honestly think that's an advantage. Why wouldn't you want 2 frogs, that can assist you with all types of jutsu?



An advantage in many cases, but not against someone that can control individuals with genjutsu. Then having super-strong people glued to your shoulders can be a disadvantage.

In the early days, the argument was that Itachi couldn’t control Sages, but Kabuto clearly proved that was not the case.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> The purpose of a clone feint is to attack an opponent with their back turned and their guard down, as they focus on the clone.



Its different. Jiraiya thought he had won and that the fight was over. The secret of the paths was not yet available to him. That's not the same as facing a few clone fients that BoS Kakashi manages against.


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## Trojan (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> An advantage in many cases, but not against someone that can control individuals with genjutsu. Then having super-strong people glued to your shoulders can be a disadvantage.


Genjutsu is useless against parent-method anyway...  
So, yeah, that's still an extra advantage...


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> An advantage in many cases, but not against someone that can control individuals with genjutsu. Then having super-strong people glued to your shoulders can be a disadvantage.
> 
> In the early days, the argument was that Itachi couldn’t control Sages, but Kabuto clearly proved that was not the case.



They offer much more than most summons in the entire series


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## FlamingRain (Dec 28, 2019)

Full knowledge, beginning in Sage Mode _and_ at a 50m starting distance? When Jiraiya has far more range and stamina?

Yeah he's winning.


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Genjutsu is useless against parent-method anyway...
> So, yeah, that's still an extra advantage...



The partner method doesn’t work until you know your partner is in a genjutsu and then snap them out with a Kai. That takes longer than the split-second it takes a controlled Sage to decapitate Jiraiya.

Also the partner method was introduced as a counter against fodder Uchiha by Chiyo, not necessarily Itachi. It took Chiyo and Sakura a good long while to realize Naruto was in genjutsu and break him out.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> The partner method doesn’t work until you know your partner is in a genjutsu and then snap them out with a Kai. That takes longer than the split-second it takes a controlled Sage to decapitate Jiraiya.
> 
> Also the partner method was introduced as a counter against fodder Uchiha by Chiyo, not necessarily Itachi. It took Chiyo and Sakura a good long while to realize Naruto was in genjutsu and break him out.



Thier chakra flow is connected. They would know immediately


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Thier chakra flow is connected. They would know immediately



It’s not connected in a way they can jointly sense problems as Shima and Fukasaku didn’t realize what was going on when Pain stabbed Jiraiya with the black rod.

Itachi is also stated to control people with genjutsu in a way that sensors cannot even detect, which is another problem.

And even without that, it still takes longer to Kai than it does to punch. Shima or Fukasaku would be getting a hit in.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> It’s not connected as Shima and Fukasaku didn’t realize what was going on when Pain stabbed Jiraiya with the black rod.
> 
> Itachi is also stated to control people with genjutsu in a way that sensors can not detect.
> 
> And even without that, it still takes longer to Kai than it does to punch. Shima or Fukasaku would be getting a hit in.



Before we even go further into this point we cant ignore that Jiraiya and the elder toads have all the Intel they need on Itachi's genjutsu. Right now I have no reason to believe that their methods of avoiding it wouldnt work and that they couldn't attack Itachi and force him to drain himself through too much MS tech usage of Susanoo (where he loses a lot of mobility as well)


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Before we even go further into this point we cant ignore that Jiraiya and the elder toads have all the Intel they need on Itachi's genjutsu. Right now I have no reason to believe that their methods of avoiding it wouldnt work and that they couldn't attack Itachi and force him to drain himself through too much MS tech usage of Susanoo (where he loses a lot of mobility as well)



They would have to completely rely on sensing, like Sage Kabuto chose to do, except their sensing and reflex feats are much worse and Itachi was able to clone feint Sage Kabuto to take his horn with a sword (albeit Kabuto claims he could have dodged it if he remembered he had them).

So chances are, an Itachi that is actually trying to kill Sage Jiraiya (whereas Itachi was not trying to kill Kabuto, merely trap him in a loop to control him into undoing Edo Tensei) would likely be able to do serious damage with a clone feint combined with a real technique aimed to devastate.

Even when about to die from cancer, Itachi in one day made a Koto trap, used multiple clones, Tsukuyomi, several burst of Amaterasu, sustained a v4 Susano’o for quite some time, and sealed a final burst of Amaterasu. That’s a lot for Jiraiya to dodge or survive while blind and Itachi isn’t an inefficient fighter when not trying to purposefully lose.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> They would have to completely rely on sensing, like Sage Kabuto chose to do, except their sensing and reflex feats are much worse and Itachi was able to clone feint Sage Kabuto to take his horn with a sword.
> 
> So chances are, an Itachi that is actually trying to kill Sage Jiraiya (whereas Itachi was not trying to kill Kabuto, merely trap him in a loop) would likely be able to do so.
> 
> Even when about to die from cancer, Itachi used multiple clones, several MS techniques, and a v4 Susano’o for quite some time. That’s a lot for Jiraiya to dodge or survive while blind.



You keep saying blind when the Sages would not be fighting blind. Oddly enough it would be Itachi going blurry with vision over the span of the fight. Large scale AoE attacks also cloud line of sight and force Itachi to dodge everytime because he does not have the ninjutsu arsenal to counter them. Which forces Susanoo eventually.  Keeping the distance takes away from the effectiveness of genjutsu attempts and lessens the fear of Totuksa Blade or Amaterasu. But camping cant happen forever. While Jiraiya can remain in SM for a very very long time


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> You keep saying blind when the Sages would not be fighting blind.



Without vision, relying on sensing and reflexes that clearly weren’t great against Pain relative to Kabuto.



Shazam said:


> Large scale AoE attacks also cloud line of sight and force Itachi to dodge everytime



Why wouldn’t he just do what he did against Nagato in this case? Susano’o in a dust cloud, Tosuka? Nagato was a sensor, had more perceptive eyes, had much better reflexes, and much better defensive jutsu.

Alternatively, Itachi could just use it as clone feint bait and come at Jiraiya’s blindspot as we saw him do against Nagato after Shinra Tensei when he blinded all his summons and charged in to cut him up with Susano’o.

The whole “wear Itachi down until he’s out of chakra” just seems incredibly naive given how deadly Itachi’s jutsu are and how smart he is. He just needs to land one out of ten to win. He landed Amaterasu on Nagato, cut him up with Susano’o, and landed Totsuka. He never missed, and healthy Nagato was _waaaaay_ better than Sage Jiraiya, let alone Sage Jiraiya closing his eyes.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> Without vision, relying on sensing and reflexes that clearly weren’t great against Pain relative to Kabuto.



Citing the Asura moment does not work as it is not the same as fighting someone you know is alive versus thinking you have won and letting your guard down while turning your back. 




Illusory said:


> Why wouldn’t he just do what he did against Nagato in this case? Susano’o in a dust cloud, Tosuka? Nagato was a sensor with much better reflexes and much better defensive jutsu.
> 
> Alternatively, Itachi could just use it as clone feint bait and come at Jiraiya’s blindspot as we saw him do against Nagato after Shinra Tensei.



Again. Read the OP thoroughly first then come back. The distance is a factor against Totuksa, intel is a protection factor against it (does Nagato even know about the blade? Here Jiraiya does). Susanoo does not possess great mobility without legged version. Yomi Numa in a cloud protects from sharingan reading attack and the susanoo then loses all mobility there


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Citing the Asura moment does not work as it is not the same as fighting someone you know is alive versus thinking you have won and letting your guard down while turning your back.



That is comparable to a clone feint, but it wasn’t just the Asura moment. Human Path effortlessly countered Jiraiya and Jiraiya was forced to run away from three weaker paths while relying on his summons’ genjutsu. He’s just nowhere near comparable to Pain Arc Sage Naruto who effortlessly dispatched those same bodies and was stated by Fukasaku to have surpassed Jiraiya, let alone Sage Kabuto that’s an even higher level.



Shazam said:


> Again. Read the OP thoroughly first then come back. The distance is a factor against Totuksa



The Totsuka crossed a large distance to pierce Nagato. It’s not a strictly short-range jutsu. Distance can be closed, in any case.



Shazam said:


> intel is a protection factor against it (does Nagato even know about the blade? Here Jiraiya does).



Kabuto effectively had 99% full intell on Itachi when controlling Nagato.



Shazam said:


> Susanoo does not possess great mobility without legged version.



We saw Itachi blitz in with Susano’o to cut up Nagato and grab Bee and Naruto. Mobility doesn’t seem to be an issue when Itachi summons it in moments where it counts.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> That is comparable to a clone feint, but it wasn’t just the Asura moment. Human Path effortlessly countered Jiraiya and Jiraiya was forced to run away from three weaker paths while relying on his summons’ genjutsu. He’s just nowhere near comparable to Pain Arc Sage Naruto who effortlessly dispatched those same bodies and was stated by Fukasaku to have surpassed Jiraiya, let alone Sage Kabuto that’s an even higher level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He was dealing with the rinnegan shared vision and did not have the intel to understand what was going on throughout 99% of the fight until the end. That is not going to be the case here so there is nothing to take from that fight that would apply to Itachi and allow him to capitalize like the way Pain could in those moments. 

Jiraiya is not going to be stationary. Note the location, note the intel, note the distance. Kabuto controlling Nagato could have theoretically made him worse. We dont really know how much kabuto knew about Itachi. 

Again, read OP thoroughly (specifically the restricted). Yomi Numa stops any mobility that the Susanoo without legged would have.


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## Soul (Dec 28, 2019)

Jiraiya has a chance thanks to the OP stipulations, but he still doesn't have a viable counter to Tsukuyomi if Itachi gets close enough. Same with Susano'o. And Amaterasu, actually.
If Itachi has full knowledge and knows he can't get close by usual means Susano'o could come out early. He won't just stand there waiting for Jiraiya to overwhelm him.
The fact that this is within the Uchiha hideout would be troublesome to Jiraiya, since he doesn't know the building.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Again, read OP thoroughly (specifically the restricted). Yomi Numa stops any mobility that the Susanoo without legged would have.



You keep saying this, but Susano’o can be released and re-summoned easily as we saw in the Kabuto fight. Yomi Numa has never worked on a ninja anywhere near Itachi’s reflexive level. It very briefly held Human Path, who did not have knowledge.

You gave two people full intell. The problem is one is a genius, faster, with deadlier jutsu, and needs one good hit while his opponent’s best strategy is staying far away with his eyes closed and the LoS blocked with holes of surviving until his enemy is tired out after a dozen or so attempts.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Soul said:


> Jiraiya has a chance thanks to the OP stipulations, but he still doesn't have a viable counter to Tsukuyomi if Itachi gets close enough. Same with Susano'o. And Amaterasu, actually.
> If Itachi has full knowledge and knows he can't get close by usual means Susano'o could come out early. He won't just stand there waiting for Jiraiya to overwhelm him.
> The fact that this is within the Uchiha hideout would be troublesome to Jiraiya, since he doesn't know the building.



The counters are methods that block LoS as has always been argued. As the stipulations suggest however, being in iC we aren't seeing max chakra taxing attacks and defenses opening up the fight. What likely happens is that Jiraiya immediately clouds the area, uses gorilla tactics (the picture of the location is clearly outside and not inside) to avoid the genjutsu attempt Itachi will want to use. AoE attacks will eventually force susanoo out, and Jiraiya will need to then maintain distance due to his intel on Totuska Blade and Amaterasu. This becomes a battle of attrition the way I see things playing out.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> You keep saying this, but Susano’o can be released and re-summoned easily as we saw in the Kabuto fight. Yomi Numa has never worked on a ninja anywhere near Itachi’s reflexive level. It very briefly held Human Path, who did not have knowledge.
> 
> You gave two people full intell. The problem is one is smarter, faster, deadlier, and needs one good hit while his opponent’s best strategy is staying far away and surviving until his enemy is tired out after a dozen or so attempts.



Itachi releasing Susanoo puts in danger of all the multiple large AoE jutsu Jiraiya has. It would not be smart but then again he may not have an option


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Itachi releasing Susanoo puts in danger of all the multiple large AoE jutsu Jiraiya has. It would not be smart but then again he may not have an option



None of Jiraiya’s AOE outside of his combo with Gamabuta have the coverage to remotely pressure Itachi’s evasive ability while Jiraiya is staying far away.

Gamabuta would quickly die, be taken control of, etc. He is not dodging an extended Totsuka, Amaterasu, or even genjutsu unless he closes his eyes too.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> None of Jiraiya’s AOE outside of his combo with Gamabuta have the coverage to remotely pressure Itachi’s evasive ability while Jiraiya is staying far away.
> 
> Gamabuta would quickly die, be taken control of, etc. He is not dodging an extended Totsuka, Amaterasu, or even genjutsu unless he closes his eyes too.



What is "extended Totuksa Blade"? I never heard that term be used. Bunta is a great tool for large quantities of Oil that can be used to slow down the movements of Itachi. Fire Seal removes amaterasu as per canon and with Intel that can likely occur. If Itachi releases a large scale Amaterasu to quickly engulf Bunta it only significantly drops his eye sight and chakra levels anyways. Jiraiya and the elder toads would have nigh endless amounts of toads summons to call on from mount myoboku


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

The Totsuka Blade isn’t physical and seems to extend its length. It was shown to be significantly longer against Nagato than it was against Orochimaru.

Fire Seals removed tiny fledgling portions of Amaterasu, not the initial burst blast that tore a huge hole through fireproof flesh. Amaterasu doesn’t have to be huge to cripple or kill Gamabuta. The Cerberus was easily taken out with a small burst, and Nagato was hit immediately after.

Jiraiya can keep calling large toads to be murdered or maimed, but I doubt he would and I doubt Itachi wouldn’t land a hit on him in the mean time.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> The Totsuka Blade isn’t physical and seems to extend its length. It was shown to be significantly longer against Nagato than it was against Orochimaru.
> 
> Fire Seals removed tiny fledgling portions of Amaterasu, not the initial burst blast that tore a hole through fireproof flesh.



That's mostly just inconsistency in art. Nothing is ever mentioned in any source about an "extending Totuksa Blade" like kid Goku.

Fire seal can remove the black flames off a toad, the summoning jutsu Jiraiya used was literally inside a stomach of a toad.


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> That's mostly just inconsistency in art. Nothing is ever mentioned in any source about an "extending Totuksa Blade" like kid Goku.



I believe the DB entry does state that the blade is formless and changes how it needs to in order to defeat opponents.


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## Marvel (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> He dodged a Susano’o arrow which WA Kakashi


What the fuck??


It was FKS Kakashi not WA Kakashi and the Arrow wasn’t dodged it was warped by Kamui.





Illusory said:


> Clones are typically slower than originals and get punked more easily,


No they’re not.  They have the same physicals. As shown when in the WA they were all capable of taking on Kage levels.



Illusory said:


> Sage Jiraiya was blindsided by Asura Path,


Ok? He thought he killed all the paths and lowered his guard.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Illusory said:


> I believe the DB entry does state that the blade is formless and changes how it needs to in order to defeat opponents.



Can you post scan


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## Marvel (Dec 28, 2019)

@Illusory why do you insist on talking out the your ass and ignoring the manga and stipulations and making up your own?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 28, 2019)

blk said:


> Jiraya falls the moment Susanoo is used.
> 
> Normally i would argue that something like Shunshin blitz + Genjutsu is enough (as per canon), but with Jman already in SM and with full knowledge that ain't gonna happen.
> 
> ...



This.


Hussain said:


> nonsense.
> 
> Frog Call, Frog Song, underworld swarm.
> 
> All of them will fodderstomps Susanoo and itachi at the same time.



@Shazam/@JuicyG likes to tell the Itachi guys to use proper counterarguments, not the Jiraiya guys. Isn't that interesting, @Sufex?


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## Sufex (Dec 28, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This.
> 
> 
> @Shazam/@JuicyG likes to tell the Itachi guys to use proper counterarguments, not the Jiraiya guys. Isn't that interesting, @Sufex?


Hmm that is very intresting. Especially form an unbaised trustworthy poster such as shazzyG


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## Marvel (Dec 28, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This.
> 
> 
> @Shazam/@JuicyG likes to tell the Itachi guys to use proper counterarguments, not the Jiraiya guys. Isn't that interesting, @Sufex?


Long time no see Munboy.

Didn’t know Itachi could run with V4 Susanoo activated and use Yata Mirror and Toskuta Blade simultaneously.

Learn something new everyday. I guess we’re too assume SM Jirayia with enhanced reflexes and sensing aswell as two sages on his shoulder will be unable to dodge a susanoo slash.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

I have Munboy blocked. Could someone screen shot what he said?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 28, 2019)

Marvel said:


> Long time no see Munboy.
> 
> Didn’t know Itachi could run with V4 Susanoo activated and use Yata Mirror abs Toskuta Blade simultaneously.
> 
> Learn something new everyday. I guess we’re too assume SM Jirayia with enhanced reflexes and sensing aswell as two sages on his shoulder will be unable to dodge a susanoo slash.



Why wouldn't Itachi be able to run with V4 Susanoo activated? It depends on the Susanoo slash speed and Jiraiya's SM boost. Note, we're _not _meant to equate Jiraiya's SM boost to that of Naruto and Kabuto's like Turrin tricked himself into thinking we should.


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## Marvel (Dec 28, 2019)

SM Jirayia bodies with medium difficult. He does better w/ full knowledge than Itachi does. He’s more versatile and with the huge starting distance has time to prep his techniques like Frog Song/Call.

Susanoo Arrows can be countered with LoS blockers and sensing. The same goes for Amaterasu. Jirayia will 100% attempt Genjutsu on someone with a nigh impenetrable defense. Itachi can’t stop that from happening either.

Unless of course Itachi can sprint with V4 Susanoo activated and swing the Totskua Blade like this



Which he can not. Therefore he dies.

Gamatrio is an option too considering they can distract Susanoo and allow Jirayia to be extremely mobile.

Once Itachi is in a Genjutsu. SCOR from behind should do the trick.


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## Marvel (Dec 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I have Munboy blocked. Could someone screen shot what he said?



“@Shazam/@JuicyG likes to tell the Itachi guys to use proper counterarguments, not the Jiraiya guys. Isn't that interesting, @Sufex?”

He also agrees with the notion that Itachi will sprint with V4 Susanoo and dual wield Yata Mirror and Toskuta Blade.


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## Marvel (Dec 28, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why wouldn't Itachi be able to run with V4 Susanoo activated? It depends on the Susanoo slash speed and Jiraiya's SM boost. Note, we're _not _meant to equate Jiraiya's SM boost to that of Naruto and Kabuto's like Turrin tricked himself into thinking we should.


Have we seen his running with V4 Susanoo? Seems unrealistic to me. Provide a scan of him doing so and we’ll be good to go.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Marvel said:


> Have we seen his running with V4 Susanoo? Seems unrealistic to me. Provide a scan of him doing so and we’ll be good to go.



Only legged Susanoo and above does that. EMS is usually required.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 28, 2019)

Marvel said:


> SM Jirayia bodies with medium difficult. He does better w/ full knowledge than Itachi does. He’s more versatile and with the huge starting distance has time to prep his techniques like Frog Song/Call.



Likewise with full knowledge, Itachi can get Susanoo up knowing Jiraiya will do these sort of attacks.



> Susanoo Arrows can be countered with LoS blockers and sensing. The same goes for Amaterasu. Jirayia will 100% attempt Genjutsu on someone with a nigh impenetrable defense. Itachi can’t stop that from happening either.



Itachi doesn't use Susanoo arrows. If you meant Magatama then LOS blockers aren't going to do much as they can cover a wide range. It doesn't stop Itachi from launching his own attacks whilst those Magatama are shot. The Amaterasu point you mentioned is not compelling at all; if he's close enough, it is going to be a game ender. 

How can Itachi not stop the Genjutsu from occurring? Pain failed to do so as he underestimated Jiraiya, just like Jiraiya and Fukasaku expected. The sound will give away his location and the Genjutsu can be disrupted with Magatama or even Amaterasu- whilst the Sennin are focussing on Genjutsu, they cannot sense (hence Pa died against Pain).



> Unless of course Itachi can sprint with V4 Susanoo activated and swing the Totskua Blade like this
> 
> 
> 
> Which he can not. Therefore he dies.



Since when does Susanoo cripple users' ability to move?



> Gamatrio is an option too considering they can distract Susanoo and allow Jirayia to be extremely mobile.
> 
> Once Itachi is in a Genjutsu. SCOR from behind should do the trick.



They'll just be sealed by Totsuka, Jiraiya with knowledge will know this. Jiraiya's mobility will mean nothing if his Genjutsu will give away his location. 



Marvel said:


> Have we seen his running with V4 Susanoo? Seems unrealistic to me. Provide a scan of him doing so and we’ll be good to go.



Why is it unrealistic? For it to be unrealistic there must be a reason it is unrealistic other than saying it is unrealistic because you can't debate around the point.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 28, 2019)

I've got to give the BD credit, whenever I come back in find out that there's some bizarre notion being pushed. Users can't run with Susanoo... what.


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## Shazam (Dec 28, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I've got to give the BD credit, whenever I come back in find out that there's some bizarre notion being pushed. Users can't run with Susanoo... what.



Feel free to prove otherwise son


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## Quipchaque (Dec 28, 2019)

The one that is being worshipped like a God by guys Like Kabuto, Orochimaru, Deidara and Zetsu and took Nagato's pocket money wins. 

Jiraiya has been surpassed by Sage Mode Naruto while Itachi Has been playing with far bigger boys than that and got deceisively put above Sasuke who is still in the same Tier as that same Naruto. And even when Sasuke took Itachi's eyes with an inferior jutsu Arsenal Sasuke Was still equal to Naruto who is again>to Jiraiya.


No matter what mental gymnastics Jiraiya Fans pull they will always Lose.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Feel free to prove otherwise son



The burden of proof is on you and the others who've made up this concept out of thin air. We've seen characters move with chakra avatars many times; we've seen a number of fights where characters moved whilst having Susanoo active. The databooks do not comment on the chakra inhibiting the users' movement either. 

In short: you can't debate around V4 Susanoo so you have to make up limitations.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soul (Dec 28, 2019)

Shazam said:


> The counters are methods that block LoS as has always been argued.



And the answer to that argument had always been that he can't effectively cover LoS all the time while attacking him. Itachi is too fast to get hit by the big AoE attacks from Jiraiya with knowledge of them.



> As the stipulations suggest however, being in iC we aren't seeing max chakra taxing attacks and defenses opening up the fight



That is not what in character means. It means that the character will act as he would in the manga. If Itachi knows he can't keep up a battle of attrition with Jiraiya, why would he shoot for that?
I would agree with you if Itachi didn't have knowledge, but that's not the case here.



> uses gorilla tactics



It's a shame that not even half the posters will get this reference.



> the picture of the location is clearly outside and not inside



Itachi can clearly go inside if needed. Or go into the forest if he wants to not deal with Jiraiya in that location. He can approach with crow clones from a distance and use Genjutsu to Ma and Pa, which might even disrupt Jiraiya's sage mode.



> AoE attacks will eventually force susanoo out, and Jiraiya will need to then maintain distance due to his intel on Totuska Blade and Amaterasu.



No they won't. What AoE attack is fast enough for Itachi to not dodge? The oil is borderline useless in this location, he needs to get into CQC for Rasengan, and hair techniques are mostly short range.



> This becomes a battle of attrition the way I see things playing out.



Why would Itachi do that if he has knowledge that's Jiraiya's biggest advantage? His best bet is to strike hard and fast, theb tag him with his OHKO moves.


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## blk (Dec 28, 2019)

@Shazam

Itachi has shown more than once (look at the fight against Nagato and Kabuto) that he can run with Susanoo and that his mobility is not handicapped in anyway.

Also Jiraya has no decent long range Jutsu to use against Itachi, that he could not simply dodge. 
Gamaryu Endan is really the only one but useless since Ama > fire and at worst a V2 Susanoo tanks it (then Gamabunta is roasted with a bit of Amaterasu, or Genjutsu'd). 




Hussain said:


> no, it doesn't float...
> 
> 
> Don't see how the snakes are related to this exactly. And it's not like the swap will take a minute to form once Jman uses it anyway.
> ...



It can float. The Skeletal form after Ribcage was floating during the fight against Nagato (also the Ribcage itself floats as shown multiple times).
Therefore it can pick Itachi.

The OBD has calculated the speed of Naruto characters and even in P1 most of the kids have supersonic speed.

Although i can also see your point that Itachi being hit by Tayuya's sound implies that he will also get hit by Frog Call.

The point was that Jiraya's sensing is low tier and thus not very useful.
If he and the Toad Sages have trouble sensing someone in that situation, how can they effectively use sensing in the heat of a fight?

And sensing doesn't improve one's physical speed anyway.
Jman is just not fast enough to dodge consistently something that could blitz Oro and Nagato (the latter has the mental reactions good enough to dodge a point blank FRS).



Turrin said:


> Why do you assume Susanoo slashing speed is insane. Kabuto was dodging Susanoo easily in SM (at times 2 Susanoo) and the Gokage (except Tsunade but it doesn’t matter if she gets hit, & she is the slowest of the Gokage in CQC) we’re evading and reacting to Madara Susanoo attacks throughout the battle. It’s essentially a myth that Susanoo is some ultra fast thing that can’t be reacted to easily by most Kages.
> 
> I feel somehow arrived at the faulty assumption that  Susanoo is ultra fast due to to fandom; and the fact that Danzo a slow old man; had trouble evading it (even though he did evade at times), as well as disembodied Orochimaru (who again had no incentive to dodge & isn’t that fast) couldn’t avoid it.



Arm and hand speed is faster than leg movement.

And Susanoo has giant arms and hands, so that speed advantage is accentuated.

Totsuka blitzed before any mental reaction both Oro and Nagato.
Sasuke's Susanoo destroyed Danzo more than once (he could fight with a speedster like Sasuke no problem in cqc).

Mokuton clones are extremely weaker than originals as shown by when Hashi's clones were being easily dispatched by a sitting Madara with Ribcage Susanoo.
That's why the Kages could survive to Madara's clones for so long.

Jman doesn't have the speed to survive an Itachi running to him with Susanoo, slashing left and right.


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## Illusory (Dec 28, 2019)

Marvel said:


> What the fuck??
> 
> It was FKS Kakashi not WA Kakashi and the Arrow wasn’t dodged it was warped by Kamui.



It was after Obito declared war against them. Whatever, pedantics. And as I said, he could not physically move a foot to dodge.



Marvel said:


> No they’re not.  They have the same physicals.



EMS Madara wouldn’t need Susano’o to individually body Tsunade. His clones were watered down, and toying with them.



Marvel said:


> Ok? He thought he killed all the paths and lowered his guard.



hE lOwErEd hIs gUaRd is the epitome of desperation in debates.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 28, 2019)

When did Jiraiya fans start pretending that Susanoo is so heavy that its users can't run while it is active?


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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2019)

@blk 

1. Orochimaru was in disembodied state (and had no incentive to evade); and Nagato was crippled. Susanoo blitzing them isn’t as much of a testament of its speed, rather then it’s a testament of their lack or speed. In the case of Nagato we have Kabuto as a third person narrator outright telling us this is the case, rather then marveling at Susanoo speed.

2. Danzo is also one of the slowest ‘High Tiers’ in the verse, as he is an Old-Man; who even 3T Sasuke was able to blitz as well. Even still Danzo did evade and react to Susanoo on occasion, so I would say Susanoo display against Danzo is a poor one.

3. Clones are weaker depending on the amount of chakra they have. If they have enough chakra for a Jutsu; that Jutsu has never been weaker then the Originals. In this case the clones had enough chakra to use Susanoo (and actually a complete body version), so Susanoo would have been the same strength as it always is. 

Kages didn’t survive Madara Susanoo for long; Kages survived Madara Clones, which was off panel so we don’t know what Madara was even using against them the entire time. Plus typical off panel BSing and playing with amounts of time which Kishi is prone to do. When we saw the Gokage actually face Susanoo on panel they were quickly loosing, except Onoki. But they all were able to react to Susanoo. 

5. If you mean evasion speed; I agree SM J-Man would quickly be tagged in CQC by Susanoo; but not because he can’t react to Susanoo, but because I’m CQC, no one can easily consistently evade physical attacks from their enemies (unless they are massive faster then them and even then usually not); problem here isn’t they Jiriaya couldn’t put up a guard it’s that a guard wouldn’t block Totsuka sword.

Which is why Jiraiya wouldn’t put up a guard or try to evade Susanoo he / Elder Toads would use Jutsu to defend Susanoo. My point is that he can and would be able to react in time to use Jutsu, just like most Kages can.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 29, 2019)

Itachi beats him, he has the superior arsenal and he is smarter so he should come up on top.


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## blk (Dec 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @blk
> 
> 1. Orochimaru was in disembodied state (and had no incentive to evade); and Nagato was crippled. Susanoo blitzing them isn’t as much of a testament of its speed, rather then it’s a testament of their lack or speed. In the case of Nagato we have Kabuto as a third person narrator outright telling us this is the case, rather then marveling at Susanoo speed.
> 
> ...



1) Yeah but both Oro and Nagato couldn't even react mentally to the sword slash.
Even if they were mobile, the fact that they couldn't mentally react to it means that they would get blitzed anyway. 
Now for Nagato there is the smoke screen thing (although it was pretty distant from him, so it didn't block his LoS completely), but Oro has no excuses really.

2) Wait when did Sasuke blitz Danzo? I actually remember them competing in cqc no problem.

3) The Susanoo itself might have been as good as one made by the actual Madara, but the clones' reactions, speed, agility, etc were very likely inferior.
When Hashi sent clones to fight Madara, the latter was destroying them while sitting.
This indicates that the Mokuton clones are weaker than the original in stats at least (and as all type of clones, the more there are the weaker they should be depending on the chakra reserves of the user, and since Madara has insane chakra reserves even 25 clones would still not be complete fodders but very likely not as good as Mads himself).

4) Ok so we agree on evasion of Susanoo in a cqc exchange.
But how do you propose that Jiraya can keep Itachi at a distance with his Jutsu?
All of Jman's ninjutsu from the long and mid range would be very easy for Itachi to just dodge. Only exception is Gamaryu Endan, but it can be defended in a number of ways and Gamabunta will Genjutsu'd or Amaterasu'd very rapidly anyway.


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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2019)

blk said:


> 1) Yeah but both Oro and Nagato couldn't even react mentally to the sword slash.
> Even if they were mobile, the fact that they couldn't mentally react to it means that they would get blitzed anyway.
> Now for Nagato there is the smoke screen thing (although it was pretty distant from him, so it didn't block his LoS completely), but Oro has no excuses really.
> 
> ...


1. We are told by Kabuto that Nagato couldn’t react due to being physically enfeebled. So whether you think that makes sense or not with what was shown; it is unfortunately irrelevant. The author is telling us through a third party the being physical enfeebled effects mental reaction; and we have to accept it.

In Orochimaru case. This was a physically enfeebled / bed ridden Orochimaru that had yet to body transfer. For example as less enfeebled Orochimaru got blitz by KN1 BoS Naruto, so Totsuka blitzing an even weaker Orochimaru is really not this amazing feat your making it out to be.

2. They were competing because Danzo was using Izanagi to respawn in Sasuke blind spot; even still Sasuke was still keeping up with Danzo and he blitz him here:

Cutting him twice in the time Danzo could only touch him once.

3. Were not talking about the clones physical  speed though; were talking about Susanoo raw speed. If Susanoo throws an attack and the Gokage can react to it; that has nothing to do with the clones physical speed

4. Susanoo has been shown to have several weakness. When it’s not complete body, the users feet are exposed; which means Toad Stomach, Deep Fyer,  and Yomi Numa would be two techniques Itachi couldn’t easily defend with Susanoo. I’m not saying he would loose to these but they would slow him down. The second weakness is to Sound Jutsu; so Frog-Call would also slow Itachi down. There is also blocking the casters sight which can be accomplished with Shima dust cloud Technique; or Jiraiya making use of the battlefield to hide (this one is good for that too).

I also don’t discount the Toads. Gama Yu Endan and Drilling Water Bullets can slow Itachi down too; and Ken can be Summoned to Shield a Sword Strike or FCD can be used to pin down Susanoo for a bit (it held down Kurama for a bit so it can do this). Again this won’t be an issue for Itachi for long, but slow him down sure.

I’m sure you can bring up points as to how he can counter all of these; and I don’t disagree, it’s just that Jiraiya doesnt need to beat Itachi with these Jutsu only hold him off long enough for Sicknes to cause his death or for Frog-Song to be done. Both of which I believe he can accomplish with these techs

5. You also bring up the idea of Itachi using Amaterasu while using Susanoo; I don’t believe he could even do this without dying. I mean Obito said this was a-lot even for Healthy Sasuke to duel cast MS techs like that. So I just don’t see Itachi opting for that IC and if he does I think he may kill Jiraiya then but would die himself.


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## Shazam (Dec 29, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why wouldn't Itachi be able to run with V4 Susanoo activated? It depends on the Susanoo slash speed and Jiraiya's SM boost. Note, we're _not _meant to equate Jiraiya's SM boost to that of Naruto and Kabuto's like Turrin tricked himself into thinking we should.



We only see Itachi use a partial form of Susanoo when moving at all from looking at the Kabuto fight (even though in OP I specifically noted that all Edo related feats were to be restricted as question can be raised about what would or wouldn't happen if he is not benefiting from regenerative chakra.) Same with Sasuke in the fight, when Itachi was moving around a lot Susanoo was never active, but when stationary they both upheld some (usually smaller form than V4) Susanoo up for protection. This is simply the manga. And its simply In-Character like OP specifies to use. 



DiscoZoro20 said:


> The one that is being worshipped like a God by guys Like Kabuto, Orochimaru, Deidara and Zetsu and took Nagato's pocket money wins.
> 
> Jiraiya has been surpassed by Sage Mode Naruto while Itachi Has been playing with far bigger boys than that and got deceisively put above Sasuke who is still in the same Tier as that same Naruto. And even when Sasuke took Itachi's eyes with an inferior jutsu Arsenal Sasuke Was still equal to Naruto who is again>to Jiraiya.



I don't have much to say about opinionated self-scaling of the series. 





Soul said:


> And the answer to that argument had always been that he can't effectively cover LoS all the time while attacking him. Itachi is too fast to get hit by the big AoE attacks from Jiraiya with knowledge of them



Sure he can. LoS can be blocked in many ways, dust clouds, clones, using multiple summons, using large AoEs etc. Itachi is also not V2 A4. He may be fast by traditional standards but he is not an opponent whose speed is so far beyond a Sage like Jiraiya that he wouldn't be able to adjust and land attacks 




Soul said:


> That is not what in character means. It means that the character will act as he would in the manga. If Itachi knows he can't keep up a battle of attrition with Jiraiya, why would he shoot for that?
> I would agree with you if Itachi didn't have knowledge, but that's not the case here.



Its not about whether or not Itachi would "shoot" for a battle of attrition, its about whether or not he has a choice. Itachi's best options are genjutsu at the start of a fight, he needs to close distance and have LoS to land Amaterasu or attack from Susanoo. Meanwhile Jiraiya can easily fight from the distance, attack in a large scale way, play gorilla warfare in this location and at anytime prep frog song using toads and clones as diversions




Soul said:


> Itachi can clearly go inside if needed. Or go into the forest if he wants to not deal with Jiraiya in that location. He can approach with crow clones from a distance and use Genjutsu to Ma and Pa, which might even disrupt Jiraiya's sage mode.



The first thing Jiraiya and the elder toads will want to do is avoid the genjutsu, sage sensing and barrier jutsu helps them a lot, and if the fight goes inside, Jiraiya will just use summoning esophagus (where we have recently learned that contains poisonous gas).  



Soul said:


> No they won't. What AoE attack is fast enough for Itachi to not dodge? The oil is borderline useless in this location, he needs to get into CQC for Rasengan, and hair techniques are mostly short range.



First of all I need to understand how fast you actually believe Living Itachi is and why for your reasons. Until you answer that I can't answer attacks I think will land based on my reasons. Susanoo is there for protection regardless, but he loses a lot of mobility



Soul said:


> Why would Itachi do that if he has knowledge that's Jiraiya's biggest advantage? His best bet is to strike hard and fast, theb tag him with his OHKO moves.



I agree, that's his best chances. He would know that as would Jiraiya. Since they both know, how then does Jiraiya battle Itachi? By maintaining the distance (leap with toads - use LoS blockers - Yomi Numa - Oil traps that slow target movements etc) while forcing Itachi to uphold Susanoo when dealing with AoE attacks 



blk said:


> Itachi has shown more than once (look at the fight against Nagato and Kabuto) that he can run with Susanoo and that his mobility is not handicapped in anyway.



Post the scans, I am not saying I don't think he can't move at all, just that his mobility is lowered trying to use higher forms of Susanoo that does not have legged versions. 

​


blk said:


> Also Jiraya has no decent long range Jutsu to use against Itachi, that he could not simply dodge.



Based on what? 
​


blk said:


> Gamaryu Endan is really the only one but useless since Ama > fire and at worst a V2 Susanoo tanks it (then Gamabunta is roasted with a bit of Amaterasu, or Genjutsu'd).



Amaterasu > Fire. But Jiraiya can use this attack over and over and over, Itachi can not do the same with Amaterasu. And its AoE is so large is will braze the ground casting oil everywhere causing its own trouble over time




DiscoZoro20 said:


> Not true. Itachi was running through Kabuto's barrier with Legless Susano.



Neither Sasuke or Itachi was doing much moving around at all using Susanoo doing that entire fight, that is likely for a reason, Legged Susanoo is a big deal because it always the mobility while using Susanoo. Using Susanoo Itachi becomes very stationary. 



hbcaptain said:


> Itachi beats him, he has the superior arsenal and he is smarter so he should come up on top.



I'm sorry but you should provide more of a post than that. I could just say that Jiraiya has superior chakra and health, and with the combination of 2 elder sage toads, he is just as smart or smarter so he wins.


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## Shazam (Dec 29, 2019)

On the computer today so LETS GOOOOO


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2019)

Shazam said:


> We only see Itachi use a partial form of Susanoo when moving at all from looking at the Kabuto fight (even though in OP I specifically noted that all Edo related feats were to be restricted as question can be raised about what would or wouldn't happen if he is not benefiting from regenerative chakra.) Same with Sasuke in the fight, when Itachi was moving around a lot Susanoo was never active, but when stationary they both upheld some (usually smaller form than V4) Susanoo up for protection. This is simply the manga. And its simply In-Character like OP specifies to use.



Ah, I see. So you _are _pulling facts out of your ass. I doubt many are surprised, tbh. 

You are the one who needs to prove that Susanoo's chakra is so insanely dense that Itachi cannot move with it active. You've yet to do that. Whenever Itachi/Sasuke deactivated Susanoo, they didn't believe they needed it; you're being dishonest by trying to equate this to them being unable to move with Susanoo active. 

Why would JuicyG Shazam do this? Easy, he can't see Jiraiya winning without this made up face in play.


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## Soul (Dec 29, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Sure he can. LoS can be blocked in many ways, dust clouds, clones, using multiple summons, using large AoEs etc. Itachi is also not V2 A4.



That he has the means to do it doesn't mean he will be doing it 24/7. Sounds rather unreasonable to me. I think he can do it enough to avoid Genjutsu for the most part, though.
Now would you address Genjutsu for Ma and Pa? And Itachi's ability to use Genjutsu from really long range.



> He may be fast by traditional standards but he is not an opponent whose speed is so far beyond a Sage like Jiraiya that he wouldn't be able to adjust and land attacks



He is if Jiraiya only attacks from range.



> Its not about whether or not Itachi would "shoot" for a battle of attrition, its about whether or not he has a choice



Ah, so you think he can't even get close.
Interesting.



> Itachi's best options are genjutsu at the start of a fight, he needs to close distance and have LoS to land Amaterasu or attack from Susanoo.



Which he can accomplish by himself or with crows surrounding him, clones to flank him. If he sets camp at the top, etc



> The first thing Jiraiya and the elder toads will want to do is avoid the genjutsu, sage sensing and barrier jutsu helps them a lot



Can he even do something else when using the barrier? Isn't his mobility compromised?



> and if the fight goes inside, Jiraiya will just use summoning esophagus (where we have recently learned that contains poisonous gas).



So it will poison Jiraiya as well? Where did you get that info?
And that would mean that Jiraiya is trapped inside as well, Itachi could kill him with Susano'o if they are on the same room.



> First of all I need to understand how fast you actually believe Living Itachi is and why for your reasons



He is pretty fast based on feats.



> while forcing Itachi to uphold Susanoo when dealing with AoE attacks



Itachi doesn't need Susano'o to dodge Jiraiya's  largeAoE attacks, though. Not from a distance.


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## blk (Dec 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. We are told by Kabuto that Nagato couldn’t react due to being physically enfeebled. So whether you think that makes sense or not with what was shown; it is unfortunately irrelevant. The author is telling us through a third party the being physical enfeebled effects mental reaction; and we have to accept it.
> 
> In Orochimaru case. This was a physically enfeebled / bed ridden Orochimaru that had yet to body transfer. For example as less enfeebled Orochimaru got blitz by KN1 BoS Naruto, so Totsuka blitzing an even weaker Orochimaru is really not this amazing feat your making it out to be.
> 
> ...



1) Oro took over Sasuke's body in that instance, he was not weakened and nothing of the sort was stated. Yet, he failed to _mentally _react to Totsuka. The fact that he couldn't readily move is irrelevant if the sword can hit him before he can mentally process that.

2) That was not a blitz, that was Danzo's plan. He simply went to touch Sasuke's neck, even tho he got cut, because he knew he would respawn.
A blitz would be something Danzo couldn't react to, either physically or mentally, but there was nothing like that in their match (outside of Susanoo's hits).

3) Ok, but the clones having less mental reactions surely could make them act and respond slower to the Kages.


4) Toad Stomach can be outrun (especially in an open field), Deep Fryer is dodged by jumping and such (also not sure how effective it is in a spherical roof), Yomi Numa is countered by Susanoo picking Itachi out of it.
Itachi would need Susanoo only if he gets trapped by Yomi Numa (so he wouldn't even keep it active otherwise, before he reaches Jiraya).
But i can agree with the Sound Jutsu and the Summons, they can be pretty troublesome. Against the Summons for sure Itachi would need to consume a fair amount of chakra (relative to how much he has while terminally ill).

Tbf i too can see Jiraya winning in this match, there is definitely the possibility for him to exhaust Itachi or prep Frog Song.



Shazam said:


> Post the scans, I am not saying I don't think he can't move at all, just that his mobility is lowered trying to use higher forms of Susanoo that does not have legged versions.
> 
> ​
> Based on what?
> ...



Chapter 551 page 8, he jumps away from Nagato with full Skeletal Susanoo (V2?).

Chapter 580 page 10, he runs with full muscle tissue Susanoo (V3?).

Chapter 585 page 7, he runs again with full Skeletal Susanoo (V2).

Well what are Jman's long range ninjutsu? Pretty much only his Oil, which is not particularly fast and not very effective in a spherical roof.
The needles and hair Jutsu are more mid range.

That is true, but Itachi is likely to do something to the Toad before they can use Gamaryu Endan again (maybe an Amaterasu snipe, or getting closer while hiding in the huge smoke and then Genjutsu, there are possibilities).

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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2019)

blk said:


> 1) Oro took over Sasuke's body in that instance, he was not weakened and nothing of the sort was stated. Yet, he failed to _mentally _react to Totsuka. The fact that he couldn't readily move is irrelevant if the sword can hit him before he can mentally process that.
> 
> 2) That was not a blitz, that was Danzo's plan. He simply went to touch Sasuke's neck, even tho he got cut, because he knew he would respawn.
> A blitz would be something Danzo couldn't react to, either physically or mentally, but there was nothing like that in their match (outside of Susanoo's hits).
> ...


1. Orochimaru tells Itachi that he is going to take over Sasukes body; so no he hadn’t taken Sasuke body over. And Orochimaru being weakened was stated / shown repeatedly in the manga.

2. It was Danzo plan to trade hits with Sasuke; Sasuke being able to hit Danzo twice in the same time Danzo hits him once; shows a speed gap between the two even if you don’t want to call it a blitz

3. Them acting slower to the Kages is irrelevant; because we’re not taking about how quickly they used Susanoo to defend or respond to an attack. We are simply talking about Susanoo attacking speed. At the point where Susanoo already is attacking the Gokage the clones reactions don’t matter

4. All I would say here is agree with your counters I just think they take time and consume chakra. The rest obviously we agree with each other on

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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 29, 2019)

Itachi is a legit issue for all 3 Sannin at once 

Hes losing decisively against them, but he REQUIRES the 3 of them to beat him

Hes been portrayed above the Sannin since age 13

Its about fucking time yall get with the program




Shazam said:


> *Restricted*: Koto Crow, Edo Form related feats


Even restricted from his edo showings (which you literally cannot do in good conscience and the fact you are doing this tells me you know this shit is a stomp for Itachi. Edo Itachi is weaker than living and by definition of being an edo, his living self scales to every damn feat bar stamina) he still slams Jiraiya 

Ama is still too fast for him

Genjutsu of any kind still oneshots him or his summons

Susanoo still walls and oneshots

And Itachi can spam this shit for quite a while even while dying of cancer, he holds Susanoo in its most taxing state for over a chapter...And thats his 2nd time using susanoo in said fight...



Shazam said:


> Boruto Related Feats for Jiraiya (it's just too much)


Boruto related feats feature a nerfed Jiraiya playing around at the Genin level 

Nothing “too much” about any of that


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## blk (Dec 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Orochimaru tells Itachi that he is going to take over Sasukes body; so no he hadn’t taken Sasuke body over. And Orochimaru being weakened was stated / shown repeatedly in the manga.
> 
> 2. It was Danzo plan to trade hits with Sasuke; Sasuke being able to hit Danzo twice in the same time Danzo hits him once; shows a speed gap between the two even if you don’t want to call it a blitz
> 
> ...



1) Ok you are correct about Oro having to still take over Sasuke. However i still think that is a very impressive feat.

2) Was Danzo hit twice? I think Sasuke simply cut through him and got his arm too.

3) Fair enough.

4) Well i agree too. I think our positions differ only slightly overall.


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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2019)

blk said:


> 1) Ok you are correct about Oro having to still take over Sasuke. However i still think that is a very impressive feat.
> 
> 2) Was Danzo hit twice? I think Sasuke simply cut through him and got his arm too.
> 
> ...


1. The problem is it’s objectively a lesser feat then KN1 BoS Naruto blitzing a more ‘healthy’ Orochimaru. And I don’t see KN1 BoS Naruto blitzing most ‘Higher Tiers’ when we have a still injured 3T Sasuke not being blitz’d by V1-B. And many characters reacting to V1/2 Jinchuuriki later in the series. 

2. He cut his chest and cut his arm off; they are two distinct cuts you can see in that scan I posted


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## Shazam (Dec 29, 2019)

Soul said:


> That he has the means to do it doesn't mean he will be doing it 24/7. Sounds rather unreasonable to me. I think he can do it enough to avoid Genjutsu for the most part, though.
> Now would you address Genjutsu for Ma and Pa? And Itachi's ability to use Genjutsu from really long range.



Having 3 partners as it encompasses Sage Mode Jiraiya allows for partner method to occur rather quickly and efficiently especially with full knowledge in the instance that they are ever caught. Considering that notion plus the notion that LoS will be a constant battle gives me reason to believe that Jiraiya and Elder Sage Toads plus multiple boss Summons will have means to protect themselves. 



Soul said:


> He is if Jiraiya only attacks from range.



I'm still trying to understand the canonical basis for this



Soul said:


> Ah, so you think he can't even get close.
> Interesting.



Depends on by what you mean by close. If you mean within constant distance where short range attacks are the major threats, then no I do not think Itachi could. Starting at 50 meters, with full intel, motion barriers, AoE attacks and LoS blockers would make closing distance on Jiraiya who is in Sage Mode very difficult.



Soul said:


> Which he can accomplish by himself or with crows surrounding him, clones to flank him. If he sets camp at the top, etc



It is not impossible, but there is a debate to be had whether he will certainly be successful or not, as Jiraiya has many options to him



Soul said:


> Can he even do something else when using the barrier? Isn't his mobility compromised?



I don't recall that ever being the case, Jiraiya was at the time gathering up for Sage Mode and using a summon for his mobility (a fact that he could summon several boss toads also helps here with draining Itachi or forcing him to have to try and simultaneously control multiple subjects which that in itself is another entire discussion) 



Soul said:


> So it will poison Jiraiya as well? Where did you get that info?
> And that would mean that Jiraiya is trapped inside as well, Itachi could kill him with Susano'o if they are on the same room.



The odd thing is that the poisonous only seems to focus the opponent, it came from Boruto showing (I know in OP I specify no Boruto related feats but it seems everyone is ignoring the rest of the restricted and citing Edo Itachi for most of this anyways)



Soul said:


> He is pretty fast based on feats.


I know he is fast, but how fast do you think he is compared to actual speedsters like A4 




Soul said:


> Itachi doesn't need Susano'o to dodge Jiraiya's  largeAoE attacks, though. Not from a distance.



We need to get on a understanding on why or why not. We cant just say so and make it a fact 



blk said:


> Chapter 551 page 8, he jumps away from Nagato with full Skeletal Susanoo (V2?).
> 
> Chapter 580 page 10, he runs with full muscle tissue Susanoo (V3?).
> 
> Chapter 585 page 7, he runs again with full Skeletal Susanoo (V2).



Chapter 551 - Nothing at all showed Itachi being heavily mobile with his skeleton Susanoo, I just re-checked 
Chapter 580 - Again, against Kabuto, he and sasuke used Susanoo to attack from a rather stationary position and dropped the Susanoo once he went in for a CqC with Kabuto which required heavy mobility
Chapter 585 - No he does not. Him and Sasuke erect Susanoo to defend from spikes, they did not become mobile and run anywhere


blk said:


> Well what are Jman's long range ninjutsu? Pretty much only his Oil, which is not particularly fast and not very effective in a spherical roof.
> The needles and hair Jutsu are more mid range.



Gamayu Endan being the largest showcased a katon larger than anything we see until possibly the middle of the War Arc and that was only in base. A senjutsu boost would make that distance astronomical. Yomi Numa is listed at "all ranges" in the databook. Food Cart Destroyer is listed as "all ranges" as well (same jutsu that momentarily pinned down Kurama) and that is just to name a few 



blk said:


> That is true, but Itachi is likely to do something to the Toad before they can use Gamaryu Endan again (maybe an Amaterasu snipe, or getting closer while hiding in the huge smoke and then Genjutsu, there are possibilities).



Amaterasu has its ranges unlike the names I've listed. Itachi must close that distance while Jiraiya would be playing to maintain it 





WorldsStrongest said:


> Ama is still too fast for him



There are methods of dealing with the range limit Amaterasu, like maintaining distance, using LoS blockers, diversionary tactics with clones and toad summons and attacking himself using AoE's and sound paralysis 


blk said:


> Genjutsu of any kind still oneshots him or his summons



Full intel makes a lot of difference, and so would partner method unless Itachi is going to use MS genjutsu which just heavily taxes him and his eyesight 


WorldsStrongest said:


> Susanoo still walls and oneshots



Likely would become a battle of attrition one that Jiraiya easily wins. Susanoo Totuska Blade is effective if Itachi has LoS and gets within range while Jiraiya has full intel and several methods of attacking from a distance while Itachi does not



WorldsStrongest said:


> And Itachi can spam this shit for quite a while even while dying of cancer, he holds Susanoo in its most taxing state for over a chapter...And thats his 2nd time using susanoo in said fight...



Itachi can not spam MS techs against someone like Sage Mode Jiraiya without losing too much of himself and getting stomped in the process. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Boruto related feats feature a nerfed Jiraiya playing around at the Genin level
> 
> Nothing “too much” about any of that



Ask Adult Sasuke about that.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 29, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Likely would become a battle of attrition


Nothing attrition based about attacks that blitz and oneshot you

in the event Jman gets distance, Itachi just doesnt use an MS tech 

He just closes the distance with other shit and activates MS when in range again

Not that its likely Jman gets away anyway


Shazam said:


> Susanoo Totuska Blade is effective if Itachi has LoS and gets within range


Which he can easily do as hes hilariously faster than Jman and has multiple ways to slow him down or distract him


Shazam said:


> while Jiraiya has full intel and several methods of attacking from a distance while Itachi does not


Genjutsu, Yasaka, Amaterasu, Katons

Not to mention a clone feint to close the distance

Jman getting distance is nigh impossible here

Itachi also has full knowledge here dude


Shazam said:


> Itachi can not spam MS techs against someone like Sage Mode Jiraiya


Doesnt matter who hes against

The dude has the stamina even when dying of illness to use Ama like 3 times and extinguish it twice, use Tsukuyomi, use Susanoo twice and maintain the second use of it for several minutes in its most taxing state, use multiple clones, small scale genjutsus and Katons

Again, all while dying of illness

He can afford to be liberal against Jiraiya


Shazam said:


> Ask Adult Sasuke about that.


Same adult Sasuke who was so nerfed he couldnt stand up 

Go watch the arc without your bullshit goggles on this time

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## Shazam (Dec 29, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Nothing attrition based about attacks that blitz and oneshot you
> 
> in the event Jman gets distance, Itachi just doesnt use an MS tech



We have a starting distance of 50 Meters. Jiraiya with full intel can keep that distance from closing to distances where Amaterasu and Susanoo are most effective 


WorldsStrongest said:


> He just closes the distance with other shit and activates MS when in range again



What "other shit"? lol



WorldsStrongest said:


> Which he can easily do as hes hilariously faster than Jman and has multiple ways to slow him down or distract him



What are your reasoning for specifying Itachi's great speed. What feats and statements back up his speed being so far beyond what Sage Jiraiya could handle 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Genjutsu, Yasaka, Amaterasu, Katons



His Katons are nothing to Jiraiya, Amaterasu and the other MS related items are a risk to Itachi himself since they are so chakra taxing and eye sight is affected over the course of the battle as we have seen. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Not to mention a clone feint to close the distance



Sage Jiraiya and the elder Sage toads know what clone fients are. And they have means of dealing with them



WorldsStrongest said:


> The dude has the stamina even when dying of illness to use Ama like 3 times and extinguish it twice, use Tsukuyomi, use Susanoo twice and maintain the second use of it for several minutes in its most taxing state, use multiple clones, small scale genjutsus and Katons
> 
> Again, all while dying of illness
> 
> He can afford to be liberal against Jiraiya



Itachi, both in the databook and from his own canonical statements have told us that he is not well off with chakra, we have seen how using too many taxing jutsu severely drops his abilities 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Same adult Sasuke who was so nerfed he couldnt stand up
> 
> Go watch the arc without your bullshit goggles on this time



He was standing up and fighting, casting Amaterasu and activating his EMS. Again, go ask Adult Sasuke.


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## Shazam (Dec 29, 2019)

For the record I think this is 50/50. I'm just providing the reasons why I think Jman wins half of the time.


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## blk (Dec 29, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. The problem is it’s objectively a lesser feat then KN1 BoS Naruto blitzing a more ‘healthy’ Orochimaru. And I don’t see KN1 BoS Naruto blitzing most ‘Higher Tiers’ when we have a still injured 3T Sasuke not being blitz’d by V1-B. And many characters reacting to V1/2 Jinchuuriki later in the series.
> 
> 2. He cut his chest and cut his arm off; they are two distinct cuts you can see in that scan I posted



1) I'm pretty sure Oro let himself be hit by KN1 Naruto. He later fight no problem with KN4.

2) Hmm ok.



Shazam said:


> Chapter 551 - Nothing at all showed Itachi being heavily mobile with his skeleton Susanoo, I just re-checked
> Chapter 580 - Again, against Kabuto, he and sasuke used Susanoo to attack from a rather stationary position and dropped the Susanoo once he went in for a CqC with Kabuto which required heavy mobility
> Chapter 585 - No he does not. Him and Sasuke erect Susanoo to defend from spikes, they did not become mobile and run anywhere
> 
> ...



I don't think you saw the pages/panels i'm saying then.

Chapter 551 page 8 left panel:

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*



You can see Itachi moving away from Nagato (and he had V2 Susanoo already active since he cut Nagato's arms before).

Chapter 580 page 10 top panel:

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*



Itachi is outright running with full V3 Susanoo while preparing Yasakas.

Chapter 585 page 7 mid panel:

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*



Itachi and Sasuke run in opposite directions with V2 Susanoo active.

To add another one, chapter 576 page 12 top panel:

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*



Itachi and Sasuke use Susanoo while jumping in the trees.

Not sure how you can deny these instances, they couldn't be clearer.

We have never seen Yomi Numa or FCD being used at significant ranges tho. Especially FCD, not sure how it can be "any range" when it is just summoning a toad on top of the enemy, and summons generally appear close to the summoner.
Yomi Numa could be used, but i don't think it's gonna be that useful.

Gamaryu Endan can be tanked by Susanoo at the end of the day, and i'm not sure Jiraya would be so free to use it (he needs to go for it as a starting move pretty much since Itachi will close the distance in little time).

Amaterasu has low range according to the databook, but that is contradicted by the manga showings (against Cerberus for example, the distance was a few dozens of meters i suppose, which is decent for a ninjutsu).


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2019)

The fact that the Jiraiya side needs to make up things (Itachi can't run when Susanoo is up) suggests that Itachi wins.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 29, 2019)

These conditions heavily favour Jiraiya 

He’d win most times

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## Shazam (Dec 29, 2019)

Cherry said:


> These conditions heavily favour Jiraiya
> 
> He’d win most times



The only thing that can be remotely noted to be favoring Jiraiya is the fact that he is starting this fight as his strongest self. Distance, the intel, the mind set etc is rather neutral

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## The Great One (Dec 29, 2019)

Illusory said:


> A better measurement might be that Kabuto doesn’t need two actual Sages on his shoulder feeding him natural energy. He does it naturally and effortlessly, which only War Arc Naruto was capable of. Even Pain Arc Naruto has to rely on a clone strategy.


No Kabuto needed tons of experiment.

And he was not doing it naturally and effortlessly, he was doing it due to having a huge snake attached to his gut.


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## Speedyamell (Dec 29, 2019)

Itachi high diffs.
Most techniques don't help against susanoo..
For the few I can think of that do,
Yomi numa can possibly be countered by amaterasu causing it to become solid again, or susanoo getting itachi out of it,
Jiraiya won't get the chance for frog song,
Frog call is temporary and we've seen itachi endure and use susanoo against similar sound based disturbances, 
Itachi would overwhelm jiraiya eventually if he keeps constant pressure on him with susanoo and amaterasu

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## Illusory (Dec 29, 2019)

I would agree that with full knowledge, a huge distance, and starting in Sage Mode, Jiraiya could win if he played absolutely perfectly and Itachi played very badly.

i.e. Itachi dying of exhaustion after a dozen failed Amaterasu attempts and spamming v4 Susano’o for 10 minutes without landing a single counter-attack.

Unfortunately, Itachi is the smarter fighter and would more likely catch Jiraiya off-guard and kill him with his first faint combo.


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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2019)

blk said:


> 1) I'm pretty sure Oro let himself be hit by KN1 Naruto. He later fight no problem with KN4.
> 
> 2) Hmm ok.
> 
> ...


If he let himself get hit by KN1 or even KN3; then you can easily say he let himself get hit by Susanoo. Both are equally unfounded without any evidence to support them.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 30, 2019)

Shazam said:


> The only thing that can be remotely noted to be favoring Jiraiya is the fact that he is starting this fight as his strongest self. Distance, the intel, the mind set etc is rather neutral


I was referring to distance and full knowledge

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Dec 30, 2019)

Cherry said:


> I was referring to distance and full knowledge



So both having full intel is not neutral? 

What is a "neutral " distance and why


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## 僕がキラだ (Dec 30, 2019)

Really there's no way Jiraiya can win against Itachi who's not only stronger with MS but smart and more skilled as a shinobi. Itachi with friends vs Nagato exemplifies that Itachi will always punk you if he only has enough fire-power he can use to exploit the weak points of anything you throw at him and use that to defeat you.

Jiraiya therefore dies any time he tries anything flashy.

Big Ball Rasengan. He gets Totsuka'd right then and there with the Rasengan charged up.

Toad Mouth Trap. Dies getting suffocated and burned to death by Amaterasu that not only burn the toad's insides but surround him and trap him inside the flame ring.

Food Cart Destroyer. Get lifted up and thrown right across the field at Jiraiya with Katon lighting up the frog. That also opens up for exploitation, cause right then, the cooked frog distracts Jiraiya enough to get him Totsuka'd, amongst the options of a Yasaka that collides with him, along with the fodder-toad.

Large Katon fired though Gamanunta, is countered by an impenetrable shield, and opens an exploit, as Itachi could burn through Sasuke's Fireball but consciously chose not to, as we know he didn't want to kill Sasuke and inhibited that every time he calculated Sasuke couldn't himself actually counter under the conditions, like when the size of his Amaterasu was enough to get blocked with Sasuke's wing instead of enough to cover all of Sasuke's size.

Water Bullet gets counted by Itachi's own with a clone probably, and makes way for a clone feint exploit.

The toads sitting Jiraiya's shoulders are also prone to getting genjutsu'd and used to pull Jiraiya out of his SM and additionally used to kill Jiraiya, and this inevitably happens considering Itachi has 100% knowledge of Jiraiya and that Jiraiya will have the toads sitting on top of his shoulders. He also knows fully what Ma and Pa are capable of, so I don't see why he doesn't one-shot them as soon as possible since that's what makes this a remotely incontinent fight in the first place, and we know Itachi to exploit the enemy's strengths every time, and with ease. And this is one way Jiraiya gets ended before he even impresses himself and his partners.

The fact Ma and Pa know that Itachi has genjutsu means they will close their eyes and this makes them much weaker spectators and advisers than Itachi vs Pain, and with Jiraiya having his eyes closed as well, his reactions are as good as nothing, especially having to rely on the toads to first tell him of the coming danger before he can actually do anything wortwhile. So I could even see Jiraiya getting one-shot by Amaterasu under those conditions.

Genjutsu is also another game-ender, but I'll end this off here for tl;dr purposes.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2019)

Jiraiya's fan club have yet to explain why Susanoo suddenly weighs so much that Itachi can't run while it is active.


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## Illusory (Dec 30, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Jiraiya's fan club have yet to explain why Susanoo suddenly weighs so much that Itachi can't run while it is active.



Everybody knows chakra weighs a ton.


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## Azula (Dec 30, 2019)

Sound based jutsus (Kabuto) and undergound attacks (Onoki and Gaara) have already worked against Itachi's strongest jutsu.

The later showings of MS have made it pretty clear that it cannot go against something like SM.



blk said:


> Not sure how you can deny these instances, they couldn't be clearer.



All your examples are just of Itachi covering a short distance to *position* susanoo to fight. No one is saying Itachi becomes Nagato 2.0 with Susanoo activated but something with literally no legs is not going to be mobile.

We have a pretty clear example that Susanoo is a hinderance to movement.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed**Link Removed* *Link Removed*




Sasuke deactivates Susanoo when reaching Obito was a matter of time.

Sure they can jump off and have Susanoo activated and do something while in air or when they reach the desired position but it is a clear burden when it comes to speed.

Sasuke should have kept susanoo activated and ran towards Obito and squished him like a bug from a distance instead he chose to run alone with chidori because that was faster. He chose the tactic that save time and that was running alone.


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## Illusory (Dec 30, 2019)

Azula said:


> Sound based jutsus (Kabuto) and undergound attacks (Onoki and Gaara) have already worked against Itachi's strongest jutsu.



Itachi easily deduced a counter to sound based genjutsu the first time he encountered it. There's no reason making a clone instead of using Sasuke wouldn't suffice as a counter. Jiraiya's summons' genjutsu takes much longer to synchronize and become effective as well compared to Kabuto's sound genjutsu.

Gaara using lightened sand (thanks to Onoki) to pull out a toying-around Madara that was being swarmed by Kages isn't really indicative of how Yomi Numa would do in a 1v1 scenario. Personally, I doubt Yomi Numa would OHKO part one armless Orochimaru, let alone Itachi.


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## Shazam (Dec 30, 2019)

I'll respond to all this once I'm back on the computer sometime today hopefully. A lot needs cleared up here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gianfi (Dec 30, 2019)

Add Boruto Jiraya and Itachi still soloes


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2019)

Illusory said:


> Everybody knows chakra weighs a ton.



Even though Sasuke and Itachi have moved while Susanoo was active without any indication that it slows them down in any way?


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## Shazam (Dec 30, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Even though Sasuke and Itachi have moved while Susanoo was active without any indication that it slows them down in any way?



Fyi : still on phone atm

If it were not the case that holding up Susanoo does not place limitations on mobility then Edo Itachi would have had constantly kept up an erected V4 throughout all of his fights. Chakra wouldnt have been an issue and apparently in your mind, neither would his mobility. So why not? Clearly there is a reason. And 99% of the time while holding Susanoo he is stationary or nigh stationary


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## blk (Dec 30, 2019)

Azula said:


> Sound based jutsus (Kabuto) and undergound attacks (Onoki and Gaara) have already worked against Itachi's strongest jutsu.
> 
> The later showings of MS have made it pretty clear that it cannot go against something like SM.
> 
> ...



Nice fanfic bro.

In the scans i've posted you can unequivocally see Itachi running, jumping and drifting while having Ribcage, V2 and V3 activated.
It's literally draw on panel, it cannot be argued.

Sasuke and Madara too have shown to move without any problem while keeping legless Susanoo active.

If you assert that he can only do short burst of movement while using Susanoo, please do provide either visual evidence or statements. Otherwise your claim is unfounded and not to be taken seriously.

The fact that it has no legs is completely irrelevant since it is merely the user's chakra coming out of his body and taking a particular form with certain durability and limb velocity characteristics.

Thanks for the scan you posted btw, again proves that Sasuke literally jumped a very big distance while having V3 active.

The idea that he deactivated it because it made him slower is completely baseless, there could be any number of reasons why he deactivated it. Please provide evidence for your claim that he deactivated it because it slowed him.



Shazam said:


> Fyi : still on phone atm
> 
> If it were not the case that holding up Susanoo does not place limitations on mobility then Edo Itachi would have had constantly kept up an erected V4 throughout all of his fights. Chakra wouldnt have been an issue and apparently in your mind, neither would his mobility. So why not? Clearly there is a reason. And 99% of the time while holding Susanoo he is stationary or nigh stationary



Edo Tensei do not have literally infinite chakra, they have fast regenerating chakra. Which is by no means the same as infinite and thus they can still get tired if they consume it faster than they can regenerate it (as shown several times).

Therefore if keeping Susanoo consumes chakra faster than he regenerates it (which is likely since Sasuke asked Edo Itachi if he still had enough to use Susanoo), it makes perfect sense for him not to abuse it.

But regardless, you have not _proved _that he didn't keep it active 100% of the times because it hinders his mobility.
You are just saying that that's the reason, there is zero evidence for such interpretation.

And again, there are plenty of cases where Itachi, Sasuke and Madara move freely while having Susanoo up. The instances where he is stationary are nowhere near 99% lol.


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## Shazam (Dec 30, 2019)

blk said:


> Nice fanfic bro.
> 
> In the scans i've posted you can unequivocally see Itachi running, jumping and drifting while having Ribcage, V2 and V3 activated.
> It's literally draw on panel, it cannot be argued.
> ...



I'll come back to this once I'm on the comp. Just making the clarification that I disagree, and that the biggest benefit of legged susanoo was its increased efficiency with movements. You will notice that 99% of the time while moving a good deal in the battle, Susanoo is not active. Check all of Itachi's fights and you will undoubtedly see but likely undoubtedly not care. Point is, Itachi is not going to be closing distance on Sage Jiraiya the whole fight while holding up Susanoo doing so. We simply do not see that being the case anywhere in the manga for Itachi or MS Sasuke.


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## Draco Bolton (Dec 30, 2019)

Itachi low-mid diff.

, will accidentally get burned by Amaterasu.


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## blk (Dec 30, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I'll come back to this once I'm on the comp. Just making the clarification that I disagree, and that the biggest benefit of legged susanoo was its increased efficiency with movements. You will notice that 99% of the time while moving a good deal in the battle, Susanoo is not active. Check all of Itachi's fights and you will undoubtedly see but likely undoubtedly not care. Point is, Itachi is not going to be closing distance on Sage Jiraiya the whole fight while holding up Susanoo doing so. We simply do not see that being the case anywhere in the manga for Itachi or MS Sasuke.



Legged Susanoo increases mobility above the standard mobility of the user, since he can use its bigger legs to take bigger steps.
How does that imply that non legged Susanoo = less than normal mobility for the user? Evidence tells us that the user keeps his normal mobility (which you are completely ignoring and i don't know why, there are zero scans or statements for your argument while there are plenty of scans showing characters running and jumping with legless Susanoo).

Most of the times there is no need to waste chakra on Susanoo. Again, being an Edo doesn't mean infinite chakra.

Why are you ignoring literally drawn out manga panels while making completely baseless claims?

But let's roughly calculate the percentage.

Cases where Itachi used Susanoo without fast movement: vs Hebi, Nagato (Totsuka), Kabuto (vs white snakes), Kabuto (vs White Rage), Kabuto (vs Muki Tensei), Kabuto (after Tayuya's genjutsu).

Cases where Itachi used Susanoo while either running, jumping or generally moving fast: Nagato (saved Bee and Naruto), EMS Sasuke (in the forest), Kabuto (running to throw Yasaka), Kabuto (running to cut Kimi's bones).

Although i think i'm being generous in counting the Hebi Sasuke fight (Itachi was exhausted, heavily injured and literally minutes from dying from ninja aids, he couldn't run or jump regardless of Susanoo), we still have that Itachi used Susanoo during fast movement 40% of the times.

Take away the Hebi fight and we have 44.4%.

Obviously it's a rough calculation since we don't precisely know the actual time (in seconds or minutes) that each of these instances lasted, but it's nowhere near 99% as you say.

Again, present evidence for you claim that Itachi can't move fast while using Susanoo and that the indicated cases where it happens do not count.


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## Shazam (Dec 30, 2019)

blk said:


> Chapter 551 page 8 left panel:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



That panel only illustrates Itachi using Susanoo when saving Bee and Naruto. His Susanoo arms grab them from his location. No true mobility shown there. Again this is a stretch to say that Itachi keeps full mobility inside Susanoo.  



blk said:


> Chapter 580 page 10 top panel:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Itachi "_*leaping*_" a small distance to toss Yasaka does not indicate full range of shunshin mobility, again it is a stretch to say that leg-less Susanoo that Itachi uses is able to do so here either. 


blk said:


> Chapter 585 page 7 mid panel:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



They clear did not "run" anywhere, they turned, putting their backs to each other to destroy the spikes and webs incoming to their stationary location. I do not understand how you are telling yourself that these guys are running anywhere lol 



blk said:


> To add another one, chapter 576 page 12 top panel:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Itachi and Sasuke were both able to briefly activate V1 Susanoo w/ a single limb. It is probably the best indication that they do not have to be absolutely stationary with any type of Susanoo. 

And since his Susanoo is still susceptible to attacks from below (CH 560 Pg 13), if Itachi ever tried to stay in Susanoo and make in short burst movements (since that's all we have seen him capable of using Susanoo for), then attacks like Senjutsu Yomi Numa is a big threat to him. As is toad oil for restricting or further limiting movements.  



blk said:


> We have never seen Yomi Numa or FCD being used at significant ranges tho.



We see Minato summon the technique from the mountain range, on top of that Jiraiya is stated to be skilled enough to "add more weight" to the drop itself which seemingly just appears above a specific location. 


blk said:


> Especially FCD, not sure how it can be "any range" when it is just summoning a toad on top of the enemy, and summons generally appear close to the summoner.



Im not in the business of arguing about canonical items being true or false just to help suit another characters chances of survival.



blk said:


> Yomi Numa could be used, but i don't think it's gonna be that useful.



Feel free to explain why



blk said:


> Gamaryu Endan can be tanked by Susanoo at the end of the day, and i'm not sure Jiraya would be so free to use it (he needs to go for it as a starting move pretty much since Itachi will close the distance in little time).



I do not think Itachi can close distance in little time while having to deal with ranged attacks. And traps like summoning Esophagus, basically techniques that will force MS usage and forcing taxing chakra cost on a living Itachi. Gamayu Edan again forces Susanoo, it also leaves trails of large quantities of toad oil in its wake 



blk said:


> Amaterasu has low range according to the databook, but that is contradicted by the manga showings (against Cerberus for example, the distance was a few dozens of meters i suppose, which is decent for a ninjutsu).



Trying to judge a distance based on drawings which are NEVER consistent in any shonen manga is absolutely absurd especially when doing so directly contradicts an official source material. 



Speedyamell said:


> Itachi high diffs.
> Most techniques don't help against susanoo..
> For the few I can think of that do,
> Yomi numa can possibly be countered by amaterasu causing it to become solid again, or susanoo getting itachi out of it,
> ...



Susanoo is nice and all, but not its chakra cost or the fact that it seemingly is only used in majority cases while remaining somewhat stationary. Edo Itachi related feats have been restricted in the OP for the very reason that what Itachi would or wouldnt do without a regenerative chakra in his back pocket can be argued all day long. If Frog Call is used to temporary stun Itachi, At that moment Frog Song could start to be prepped and by the time Itachi is free he will undoubtley have lost sight of Jiraiya using smoke screens or toad gourd to finish prep. 




Illusory said:


> I would agree that with full knowledge, a huge distance, and starting in Sage Mode, Jiraiya could win if he played absolutely perfectly and Itachi played very badly.
> 
> i.e. Itachi dying of exhaustion after a dozen failed Amaterasu attempts and spamming v4 Susano’o for 10 minutes without landing a single counter-attack.
> 
> Unfortunately, Itachi is the smarter fighter and would more likely catch Jiraiya off-guard and kill him with his first faint combo.



Itachi is the smarter fighter by what basis? And what basis does his intelligence so supersede that of Jiraiya that its like Shikamaru beating Hidan? Sage sensing, Toad Barrier, Smoke Screens, Clones, Clone feints himself etc Jiraiya has plenty of means


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## Illusory (Dec 30, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Itachi is the smarter fighter by what basis?



You can directly compare how quickly and effectively they countered Nagato’s shared vision. Itachi is also just much more hyped in terms of intelligence and jutsu-countering in general. We’ve seen him immediately think of and share counters to sage sound genjutsu, Rinnegan shared vision, Edo Tensei, Kamui (movie), Chibaku Tensei, etc.



Shazam said:


> And what basis does his intelligence so supersede that of Jiraiya that its like Shikamaru beating Hidan?



In this match, Itachi is the Hidan in power and the Shikamaru in intelligence while Jiraiya is the Shikamaru in power and Hidan in intelligence. Jiraiya is outmatched both ways, which is why he’s prepped and staying as far away as possible and hoping to wear Itachi out. To wear Itachi out, he has to outplay Itachi to the point where Itachi can’t land one big hit before dying of exhaustion.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Dec 30, 2019)

Anikee said:


> Really there's no way Jiraiya can win against Itachi who's not only stronger with MS but smart and more skilled as a shinobi. Itachi with friends vs Nagato exemplifies that Itachi will always punk you if he only has enough fire-power he can use to exploit the weak points of anything you throw at him and use that to defeat you.



Living Itachi is strong, Edo Itachi is even stronger. 

However I do not have Living Itachi stronger than Sage Mode Jiraiya, especially with intel granted. The same Jiraiya who Pain said could have beaten him he had more intel (though I disagree with the notion), the same Jiraiya who Obito later states that Jiraiya lived up to his massive reputation by giving the "invincible rinnegan Pain" a struggle. 



Anikee said:


> Jiraiya therefore dies any time he tries anything flashy.



On the contrary, no he doesn't.



Anikee said:


> Big Ball Rasengan. He gets Totsuka'd right then and there with the Rasengan charged up.



Sure, if that is how you think Jiraiya will fight with full intel of Totuska Blade....



Anikee said:


> Toad Mouth Trap. Dies getting suffocated and burned to death by Amaterasu that not only burn the toad's insides but surround him and trap him inside the flame ring.



The same trap that can prelude poisonous gas that would bring Living Itachi to his knees since it could against an Urashiki Ōtsutsuki. 



Anikee said:


> Food Cart Destroyer. Get lifted up and thrown right across the field at Jiraiya with Katon lighting up the frog. That also opens up for exploitation, cause right then, the cooked frog distracts Jiraiya enough to get him Totsuka'd, amongst the options of a Yasaka that collides with him, along with the fodder-toad.



LOL 

Same FCD that pinned full Kurama down for a while and its stated that Jiraiya can even add more weight to the drop. And you think Itachi's Susanoo is just going to lift it up and throw it lol 



Anikee said:


> Large Katon fired though Gamanunta, is countered by an impenetrable shield, and opens an exploit, as Itachi could burn through Sasuke's Fireball but consciously chose not to, as we know he didn't want to kill Sasuke and inhibited that every time he calculated Sasuke couldn't himself actually counter under the conditions, like when the size of his Amaterasu was enough to get blocked with Sasuke's wing instead of enough to cover all of Sasuke's size.



Gamayu Edan wouldnt beat Susanoo obviously, but it would certainly force Itachi to withhold the taxing MS tech. Going blurry eyed here soon.



Anikee said:


> Water Bullet gets counted by Itachi's own with a clone probably, and makes way for a clone feint exploit.



Itachi's ninjutsu output is pathetic compared to Jiraiya's and his summons. It does not match unless he uses MS



Anikee said:


> The toads sitting Jiraiya's shoulders are also prone to getting genjutsu'd and used to pull Jiraiya out of his SM and additionally used to kill Jiraiya, and this inevitably happens considering Itachi has 100% knowledge of Jiraiya and that Jiraiya will have the toads sitting on top of his shoulders. He also knows fully what Ma and Pa are capable of, so I don't see why he doesn't one-shot them as soon as possible since that's what makes this a remotely incontinent fight in the first place, and we know Itachi to exploit the enemy's strengths every time, and with ease. And this is one way Jiraiya gets ended before he even impresses himself and his partners.



Toads sitting on Jiraiya's shoulders are partner method waiting to happen. 



Anikee said:


> The fact Ma and Pa know that Itachi has genjutsu means they will close their eyes and this makes them much weaker spectators and advisers than Itachi vs Pain, and with Jiraiya having his eyes closed as well, his reactions are as good as nothing, especially having to rely on the toads to first tell him of the coming danger before he can actually do anything wortwhile. So I could even see Jiraiya getting one-shot by Amaterasu under those conditions.
> 
> Genjutsu is also another game-ender, but I'll end this off here for tl;dr purposes.



Closing their eyes is not what they do. They do what they did against shared vision and use smoke screens, then would likely start a battle of gorilla warfare. They keep their distance, use frog call, yomi numa, FCD, Gamayu Edan, Sage Art Goemon (which susanoo does not protect the feet), Toad Gourd Prison... And possibly even Frog Song



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Jiraiya's fan club have yet to explain why Susanoo suddenly weighs so much that Itachi can't run while it is active.



I know it is weird, apparently they were saving a lot of movement for the Susanoo's which have legs, who knew



Gianfi said:


> Add Boruto Jiraya and Itachi still soloes



Ask Adult Sasuke about that



Draco Bolton said:


> Itachi low-mid diff.
> 
> , will accidentally get burned by Amaterasu.



Be nice if you tried


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## Shazam (Dec 30, 2019)

blk said:


> Legged Susanoo increases mobility above the standard mobility of the user, since he can use its bigger legs to take bigger steps.



I agree


blk said:


> How does that imply that non legged Susanoo = less than normal mobility for the user? Evidence tells us that the user keeps his normal mobility (which you are completely ignoring and i don't know why, there are zero scans or statements for your argument while there are plenty of scans showing characters running and jumping with legless Susanoo).



Evidence is SHOWING us that while using higher forms of Susanoo the user is _most_ generally in a rather stationary position. While most generally when opting for CqC (like against naruto and Bee), Itachi drops susanoo.. I will assume that when fighting Sage Jiraiya he will act the why he did in the manga. Not the way people want him to act


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## Shazam (Dec 30, 2019)

blk said:


> Most of the times there is no need to waste chakra on Susanoo. Again, being an Edo doesn't mean infinite chakra.



It pretty much does though. The way a character operates w knowing that they have no worry about exhaustion to the point of defeat means a lot 


blk said:


> Why are you ignoring literally drawn out manga panels while making completely baseless claims?



See above quoted. Nothing is ignored, the way you are seeing those panels is odd.


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## Shazam (Dec 30, 2019)

Illusory said:


> You can directly compare how quickly and effectively they countered Nagato’s shared vision. Itachi is also just much more hyped in terms of intelligence and jutsu-countering in general. We’ve seen him immediately think of and share counters to sage sound genjutsu, Rinnegan shared vision, Edo Tensei, Kamui (movie), Chibaku Tensei, etc.



Jiraiya with the elder toad sages realized what was happening with shared vision facing the rinnegan with no intel and deduced a way to end them. He also discovered the secret that the real one was not among them. Pain being one of the most dangerous opponents to figure out. 

This is a full intel bout anyways..




Illusory said:


> In this match, Itachi is the Hidan in power and the Shikamaru in intelligence while Jiraiya is the Shikamaru in power and Hidan in intelligence. Jiraiya is outmatched both ways, which is why he’s prepped and staying as far away as possible and hoping to wear Itachi out. To wear Itachi out, he has to outplay Itachi to the point where Itachi can’t land one big hit before dying of exhaustion.



This is garbage. 

Jiraiya has the better health, chakra pool, senjutsu, larger AoE attacks, a genjutsu just as powerful if not stronger, a far larger variety of attacks and a reputation that backs it all up.


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## Illusory (Dec 30, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Jiraiya has the better health, chakra pool, senjutsu, larger AoE attacks, a genjutsu just as powerful if not stronger, a far larger variety of attacks and a reputation that backs it all up.



Lol if you really believed Jiraiya was stronger then you wouldn’t have the starting distance be 50 meters or be arguing that Jiraiya maintains a huge distance until Itachi basically collapses from exhaustion.

You might believe Jiraiya is smarter, but I don’t know why.


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## Shazam (Dec 30, 2019)

Illusory said:


> Lol if you really believed Jiraiya was stronger then you wouldn’t have the starting distance be 50 meters or be arguing that Jiraiya maintains a huge distance until Itachi basically collapses from exhaustion.
> 
> You might believe Jiraiya is smarter, but I don’t know why.



So instead I should have started the distance within Amaterasu range and Totuska range and take away intel? Sorry if I do not think its neutral to have the stipulations set so that Itachi has automatic chances to use his best moves from the get go. If Itachi has to face an opponent a mere 50 meters away who knows about his abilities and you suddenly think that is unfair then its possible that Itachi is not as strong as you want him to be anyways. 

There are winning conditions for both here. They are equals in my opinion.


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## blk (Dec 30, 2019)

Shazam said:


> That panel only illustrates Itachi using Susanoo when saving Bee and Naruto. His Susanoo arms grab them from his location. No true mobility shown there. Again this is a stretch to say that Itachi keeps full mobility inside Susanoo.



False, Itachi is clearly shown to be sliding in the terrain away from Nagato. How can you not see this? The terrain below Susanoo and Itachi's feet is shown to be disrupted and Itachi's body is shown to be in a "after movement" position, so to speak.

Moreover, Itachi's position after the slide is in front of Nagato, if he was there from the start (before activating Susanoo and cutting Nagato's arms) he would have been saw.




> Itachi "_*leaping*_" a small distance to toss Yasaka does not indicate full range of shunshin mobility, again it is a stretch to say that leg-less Susanoo that Itachi uses is able to do so here either.



We don't know how much distance Itachi has traveled before stopping. Could be five meters, ten, twenty. Who knows?
Shinobi are pretty fast after all.

You are simply arbitrarily deciding that the amount of space that Itachi traveled is not enough to justify the idea that he can generally run with Susanoo on. 100% baseless.

Also no one talked about Shunshin (although there is no real reason why he shouldn't be able to use it). Running and jumping are not Shunshin, that's a specific ninjutsu.




> They clear did not "run" anywhere, they turned, putting their backs to each other to destroy the spikes and webs incoming to their stationary location. I do not understand how you are telling yourself that these guys are running anywhere lol



Completely contradicted by the fact that you can see their leg going up in a running fashion and their body posture being exactly what they usually have when running.
Again, the fact that they might have traveled a small distance (say 5 to 10 meters) is not a reason to think that's all they can do.
Otherwise, to keep consistency, we would need every character to show they can every single basic human movement before assuming they can do them.

We can play this same game with Jiraya.

For example why did Jiraya not summon the Gama trio while in SM? It surely would have made a huge difference against the 3 Paths (since Animal Path's summons were already out of commission).
Perhaps he can't summon them while in SM 

Also Frog Call was not used by Ma and Pa while being fused to Jiraya. Maybe it means they can't use it while fused 



> Itachi and Sasuke were both able to briefly activate V1 Susanoo w/ a single limb. It is probably the best indication that they do not have to be absolutely stationary with any type of Susanoo.



It is outright evidence that they can jump at full speed while holding Susanoo.

Also Sasuke jumped a big distance with his V3 against Juubito.



> And since his Susanoo is still susceptible to attacks from below (CH 560 Pg 13), if Itachi ever tried to stay in Susanoo and make in short burst movements (since that's all we have seen him capable of using Susanoo for), then attacks like Senjutsu Yomi Numa is a big threat to him. As is toad oil for restricting or further limiting movements.
> 
> 
> We see Minato summon the technique from the mountain range, on top of that Jiraiya is stated to be skilled enough to "add more weight" to the drop itself which seemingly just appears above a specific location.
> ...



1) Itachi can run towards Jiraya without Susanoo active and activate it only when necessary. So your argument "he only run X meters, so by feats he can't run more than that" is moot anyway.

2) I'm fine going the extreme-skepticism route, but internal consistency forces us to apply that to Jman too, so show us feats of him using Yomi Numa while is SM, summoning Bunta while in SM, using Gamaryu Endan while in SM, etc.
Basically anything that he didn't do on panel in the same way you are proposing is off the table.

3) Disregarding the second point, Itachi can easily deal with all of these things:
- Yomi Numa is either dodged or Susanoo (which he can keep separate from his body as shown more than once) picks Itachi up;

- the oil is rather useless tbh because it will simply fall off the spherical roof (Itachi merely needs to jump high and wait, or jump in one of the building's towers, etc);

- FCD is tanked with Susanoo and the unfortunate toad gets cut in half;

- Gamaryu Endan is tanked.

Note that Jiraya won't be able to keep distance for long (the more distant he is the less effective and more easily dodged are his Jutsu) and Susanoo is only needed in the long range against Gamaryu Endan and in the close range against FCD (tho this last one has a chance to be dodged too).
Therefore there is a limit to how much Jiraya can throw to Itachi before the latter is close enough to hit him with Susanoo (a single Shunshin and a few jumps are literally enough, we are talking seconds here).
So mere seconds of Susanoo won't have much if any toll on Itachi, especially since he won't be using any other Jutsu from the long range (having full knowledge of Jman he already knows that the Sannin will be able to counter his other abilities).

Once the distance is closed, Susanoo destroys Jman in cqc.



> Trying to judge a distance based on drawings which are NEVER consistent in any shonen manga is absolutely absurd especially when doing so directly contradicts an official source material.



It has been used unambiguously for greater distances in almost all of its showings. The manga takes precedence over the Databook.

Not that this is important anyway, since it's unlikely Itachi will waste chakra on a Jutsu that he knows Jman can counter.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I know it is weird, apparently they were saving a lot of movement for the Susanoo's which have legs, who knew



You confuse _increased _mobility for _accessing _mobility. We all knew a full body version was coming seeing as Gaara exploited an obvious weakness.



Shazam said:


> Fyi : still on phone atm
> 
> If it were not the case that holding up Susanoo does not place limitations on mobility then Edo Itachi would have had constantly kept up an erected V4 throughout all of his fights. Chakra wouldnt have been an issue and apparently in your mind, neither would his mobility. So why not? Clearly there is a reason. And 99% of the time while holding Susanoo he is stationary or nigh stationary



V4 Susanoo was used when it was needed. You fail to understand the manga, so it doesn't surprise me that you fail to understand poster's notion. Chakra capacity =/= ability to move with Susanoo active. 

Again, the mobility point is something you pulled out of your ass because you can't debate around it.


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## 僕がキラだ (Dec 31, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Living Itachi is strong, Edo Itachi is even stronger.
> 
> However I do not have Living Itachi stronger than Sage Mode Jiraiya, especially with intel granted. The same Jiraiya who Pain said could have beaten him he had more intel (though I disagree with the notion), the same Jiraiya who Obito later states that Jiraiya lived up to his massive reputation by giving the "invincible rinnegan Pain" a struggle.


I don't care about all this, tbh. But noted.




> On the contrary, no he doesn't.


He does.



> Sure, if that is how you think Jiraiya will fight with full intel of Totuska Blade....


And how does he actually kill Itachi then, wait till he himself gets killed? Because Itachi getting worn out before the fight ends isn't happening, not with the knowledge on both sides, that pressures both to go all out at the beginning.

It's a do or die situation and Itachi activates Susanoo sooner than Jiraiya and frogs can sing, which was faster to activate than Kirin plummeted to hit his Susanoo, and Totsuka flies across the field and pierces either Jiraiya or misses just enough to pierce one of the Toads off the bat with an aim that forces that to occur with Jiraiya compelled to dodge there. And that's just a Susanoo entrance.

If you have any doubts, Itachi in-canon used used Yasaka and Totsuka virtually instantaneously at activation point against Nagato. Used Yata shield and Totsuka against Orochimaru and the former target has the feat of predicting the prep of Amaterasu, and still couldn't dodge Totsuka hidden within a dust cloud.






> The same trap that can prelude poisonous gas that would bring Living Itachi to his knees since it could against an Urashiki Ōtsutsuki.


What's this poisonous gas?

And if you're really going to use Boruto feats, we might as well end this right here, because I'm not debating a character under a different writer.





> LOL
> 
> Same FCD that pinned full Kurama down for a while and its stated that Jiraiya can even add more weight to the drop. And you think Itachi's Susanoo is just going to lift it up and throw it lol


Kurama didn't see it coming. Didn't have any weapons. Didn't have any real combat knowledge. Itachi controls the Susanoo. He sees FDC coming, and lifts the Toad's weight and throws it across the field. Unless you want to argue SM Naruto who threw huge animals hundreds of metres away throws harder than a V4 Susanoo that was supposed to have Sasuke match SM Naruto.





> Gamayu Edan wouldnt beat Susanoo obviously, but it would certainly force Itachi to withhold the taxing MS tech. Going blurry eyed here soon.


And Itachi isn't going blind soon. I don't see in the thread OP where it says this is death-bed Itachi. If this should be logical at all, Itachi should be at his Prime health, or best health ever seen. And Part 1 Itachi was at his best health. So he isn't going blind after a few usages of MS jutsus.

He gets tantamount treatment to MS Sasuke who was at V4 Susanoo against Danzo, in other words.



> Itachi's ninjutsu output is pathetic compared to Jiraiya's and his summons. It does not match unless he uses MS


He doesn't necessarily have to even use it. Elemental ninjutsu is useless anyway, if Susanoo is active to block. 

But saying Itachi's ninjutsu that matched a Sage Mode user's is pathetic is far too much of a reach and what's really pathetic, my friend. Worth noting, he copied it on the fly with sharingan on top of that, and initiated the ninjutsu before Kabuto did.




> Toads sitting on Jiraiya's shoulders are partner method waiting to happen.


Which can be used against Jiraiya, easily. They're literally control targets waiting to happen. The fact every one of the Sage's has trained Jiraiya extensively in genjutsu and the letter still coming out garbage in genjutsu-dispelling is telling. Factor in that animals in this are generally used for control, including Kurama and Manda. And it's almost inevitable that these two are at Itachi's mercy as soon as they have their eyes opened.

Because no sage that can't make another sage any better than Naruto at genjutsu is going to outdo SM Kabuto and walk around with sight.

They can also be used to exploit Jiraiya as Jiraiya would get himself hurt if they were targeted instead of him. So a Totsuka towards Ma and Pa translates to Jiraiya getting pierced.



> Closing their eyes is not what they do. They do what they did against shared vision and use smoke screens, then would likely start a battle of gorilla warfare. They keep their distance, use frog call, yomi numa, FCD, Gamayu Edan, Sage Art Goemon (which susanoo does not protect the feet), Toad Gourd Prison... And possibly even Frog Song


With full knowledge, that gets countered with crow clone/shadow clone. FCD gets countered with Susanoo like I said, the crows can be summoned to swarm Gamabunta and get him off the Susanoo in the very very unlikely event it gets weighted down, and if Itachi doesn't fire a Fire Dragon straight through out of the Susanoo and roast him anyways.

Sage Art Gomoen would be anticipated because of knowledge and sharingan prediction and crows would distract the hand signs. If Yata doesn't block, a clone takes the attack. 

Toad Guard Prison, already addressed, I think. 

None of those will work, even creating a smokebomb doesn't and in fact exacerbates it for Jiraiya as Itachi has been in a smokescreen and perfectly located his target still, whilst the same cannot be mimicked for his enemies. The same will here. As soon as the smoke goes up and covers the field, crows are spread across the field and swarm it until they're in vicinity of him. There's no reason he can't do this. 

But how does Shurikenjutsu coated in Fire gets countered layered with genjutsu if it hits? How is Amaterasu circumvented in much questionable circumstances than Kakashi and SM Kabuto with non-existing sense feats? How is Yasaka Magatama countered as separate Shuriken? How does he counter sword slashes without a boss summon? How does he deal with Susanoo barrages at all, or Itachi's IC fast-paced taijutsu plus clone fleints plus crow genjutsu? 

You haven't tried refuting anything I've said though, only listed out ineffectual possible ways Jiraiya could snatch a win without his biggest bet, the Big Ball Rasengan which you yourself have restricted because that just results in a straight loss for the Sage, amongst summoning Gamabunta out of thin air.

Rasengan is perhaps Jiraiya's best shot at anything, but that gets him killed also, so you can only make up stuff as you go.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sufex (Dec 31, 2019)

jesus christ. Amazing


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## Shazam (Dec 31, 2019)

Sufex said:


> jesus christ. Amazing



Its funny because it's true

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Dec 31, 2019)

Once again, on phone. Perhaps I can respond properly to the posts later today


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## Perfect Susano (Dec 31, 2019)

Jiraiya has the skillset to push Itachi to his limit but ultimately I think Itachi is portrayed as superior. The gap isn't too significant though.

Assuming that SM Naruto and MS Sasuke were comparable we get Itachi>MS Sasuke=SM Naruto>Jiraiya. And Itachi dealt with Orochimaru whom holds parity with Jiraiya on his deathbed, although I believe that Jiraiya would do better against Itachi than Orochimaru did. Jiraiya has abilities that match up well against Itachi like Yomi Numa to sink Susano'o and Frog Song to bypass it.


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## Turrin (Dec 31, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> Jiraiya has the skillset to push Itachi to his limit but ultimately I think Itachi is portrayed as superior. The gap isn't too significant though.
> 
> Assuming that SM Naruto and MS Sasuke were comparable we get Itachi>MS Sasuke=SM Naruto>Jiraiya. And Itachi dealt with Orochimaru whom holds parity with Jiraiya on his deathbed, although I believe that Jiraiya would do better against Itachi than Orochimaru did. Jiraiya has abilities that match up well against Itachi like Yomi Numa to sink Susano'o and Frog Song to bypass it.


SM Naruto isn’t > Jiriaya. He’s a better Sage but his inability to fuse; and Jiraiya superior arsenal / knowledge / exp


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 31, 2019)

Turrin said:


> SM Naruto isn’t > Jiriaya. He’s a better Sage but his inability to fuse; and Jiraiya superior arsenal / knowledge / exp



Hard to call Jiraiya's arsenal superior when the near-entirety of it was completely countered by three Paths who were shit on by SM Naruto, and the only thing that gave Jiraiya the edge was a genjutsu that's highly location-reliant on account of needing prep.

SM Naruto has superior taijutsu, _far _superior sensing and reactions, can muster an army of clones wielding a tech superior to Jiraiya's strongest in the _dozens_, and a Rasenshuriken that can incapacitate the strongest Bijū when _normal-sized_. His Kage Bunshin usage of feinting and trickery make Jiraiya's look like child's play. He's a smarter overall combatant.

Anyone suggesting Jiraiya's arsenal is better because of fucking featless Goemon and Kebari Senbon are hilarious.


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## Turrin (Dec 31, 2019)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Hard to call Jiraiya's arsenal superior when the near-entirety of it was completely countered by three Paths who were shit on by SM Naruto, and the only thing that gave Jiraiya the edge was a genjutsu that's highly location-reliant on account of needing prep.
> 
> SM Naruto has superior taijutsu, _far _superior sensing and reactions, can muster an army of clones wielding a tech superior to Jiraiya's strongest in the _dozens_, and a Rasenshuriken that can incapacitate the strongest Bijū when _normal-sized_. His Kage Bunshin usage of feinting and trickery make Jiraiya's look like child's play. He's a smarter overall combatant.
> 
> Anyone suggesting Jiraiya's arsenal is better because of fucking featless Goemon and Kebari Senbon are hilarious.


Let’s be honest here almost everyones Arsenal is useless against HG Realm countering Ninjutsu and Shared Vision countering Taijutsu. Naruto found a way around this combination of paths using his skill-set, but so did Jiraiya. The only difference is Naruto had a number of advantages that aided him in overcoming the Paths that Jiraiya didn’t.

Now your second claim seems to be that Naruto shit on those Paths, which is objectively false. Naruto defeats HG, Animal, and Human paths by utilizing enough of his Jutsu/chakra that he runs out of Sage Mode and is left heavily panting, clearly exhausted:

Defeating those paths was anything but easy for Naruto. Just to draw a quick comparison, here is Jiraiya after he defeats those same three paths, standing confidently not out of breath, Sage Mode still running strong:

It’s a fact that Jiraiya is in better condition after defeating those paths then Naruto. So if Naruto shit on them; Jiraiya took a diarrhea explosion right in their face.
—-

Superior Taijutsu / Sensing why because he can use Frog-Katas? The skill Data-Book IV outright states Jiraiya can also use; the skill that the Elder-Sage Fusaku taught to Naruto, that is Fused with Jiraiya in Sage Mode? 

As far as the rest goes Naruto in SM obviously has more raw power then Jiraiya; but

A) Jiraiya style is more versatile. Not only does he have a far greater wealth of Jutsu he can draw form to suit the situation; but he has access to the Elder Sages Techniques as well. Naruto arsenal is extremely limited and he’s not shown the ability to summon the Elder Sages himself ether. 

B) You will notice that all the abilities of Naruto you cited that are “better” then Jiraiya are SM Naruto abilities; which rely on Naruto being in SM. Naruto cant use the Fusion Technique like Jiraiya so he can’t enter SM as easily as Jiraiya (Fusaku didn’t even think he could enter SM in battle period back in the PA) and can’t maintain SM without prep to set up Clones.


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## Shazam (Jan 18, 2020)

@Troyse22 I think they are fairly close in combat as well


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## Troyse22 (Jan 18, 2020)

Shazam said:


> @Troyse22 I think they are fairly close in combat as well



You're wrong based on feats and hype, but like every Sannin camp member, you're entitled to your wrong opinion


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## Shazam (Jan 29, 2020)

We need to quiet down this Uchiha madness going on, and this growing number of confident Sannin haters. 

Jumping back on the PC tonight boys. 

So make your posts, I need to feed.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 29, 2020)

Shazam said:


> We need to quiet down this Uchiha madness going on, and this growing number of confident Sannin haters.
> 
> Jumping back on the PC tonight boys.
> 
> So make your posts, I need to feed.


Maybe because the Sannin aren't as powerful as their fans like to pretend.

Amaterasu! Jiraiyas dead.

Totsuka blade! Oro or Tsunade is dead

Not even trolling, the collective Sannin are a joke to Itachi, let alone 1v1


"B-b-but in P-p-p1 Itachi s-s-said that him and J-j-jiraiya" quiet. Nobody cares. If that's the entire basis of your argument then you don't have one.


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## Shazam (Jan 29, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Maybe because the Sannin aren't as powerful as their fans like to pretend.
> 
> Amaterasu! Jiraiyas dead.
> 
> ...



Headcanon is your thing


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## Troyse22 (Jan 29, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Headcanon is your thing





Troyse22 said:


> "B-b-but in P-p-p1 Itachi s-s-said that him and J-j-jiraiya" quiet. Nobody cares. If that's the entire basis of your argument then you don't have one.



When you ignore literally the entire rest of the manga in favor of a one off statement to wank your fav you don't have an argument


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## Quipchaque (Jan 29, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> When you ignore literally the entire rest of the manga in favor of a one off statement to wank your fav you don't have an argument



Not to mention when you use boruto feats in full desperation mode.


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## dergeist (Jan 29, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Not to mention when you use boruto feats in full desperation mode.


Stans

OT: Fodderaiya was one of my favs (characterwise), but we all know he gets neg diff solod.


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## Shazam (Jan 29, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> When you ignore literally the entire rest of the manga in favor of a one off statement to wank your fav you don't have an argument



If that is what you think I base my opinion on, then you and the others are sorely (and likely purposely) mistaken.

As if what you're doing (ABC logic) is any better regardless



Make your argument points for me to tackle later or shut up kid


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## Troyse22 (Jan 29, 2020)

Shazam said:


> If that is what you think I base my opinion on, then you and the others are sorely (and likely purposely) mistaken.
> 
> As if what you're doing (ABC logic) is any better regardless
> 
> ...



You not liking Jiraiya dying to Amaterasu is not ABC logic, idk why u keep saying that.

I'm not using ABC logic of any kind

Jiraiya can't deal with Itachi's arsenal because he doesn't have the arsenal to deal with him. Period.


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## Shazam (Jan 29, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> You not liking Jiraiya dying to Amaterasu is not ABC logic, idk why u keep saying that.
> 
> I'm not using ABC logic of any kind
> 
> Jiraiya can't deal with Itachi's arsenal because he doesn't have the arsenal to deal with him. Period.



Heck of an argument you got going on.


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## blk (Jan 29, 2020)

Didn't we determine that Base Sharingan-less Itachi > individual Sannin, in the other thread?

Guess we can close this


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## Shazam (Jan 29, 2020)

blk said:


> Didn't we determine that *Base Sharingan-less Itachi > individual Sannin, *in the other thread?
> 
> Guess we can close this



I didnt think that was a serious thread?  Did anyone else actually?


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## Shazam (Feb 16, 2020)

Poor itachi


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Feb 16, 2020)

Starting in SM doesn't quite lend him the credibility to efficiently trounce Itachi progressively.

He spree flicks w/ SCOR on palms, he's bilaterally pierced by 89 space-time twisting knives, ensnared by hell-screening illusions, or dropped on a green lava lime realm.

The Sage Arts lacks the spiritual capacity to bypass the spiritually embroidered Susano'o, a limb blocks the Oil Boil Wave w/ explicit ease, and traps a sea of flurry crows on prior via lighting the birds by searing fire like heat of the crippled wave.


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## Cichy (Feb 17, 2020)

Sooo...what exactly is preventing Itachi from sniping Jiraya with Amaterasu the moment the fight starts?


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## Sufex (Feb 17, 2020)

Cichy said:


> Sooo...what exactly is preventing Itachi from sniping Jiraya with Amaterasu the moment the fight starts?


The moment it comes out it is a GG


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