# [Official] Tobi's Identity Thread: Last Chance



## Nimander (Aug 22, 2012)

To save on the clutter and numerous threads, place them all in here and wrangle it out in the safety of this thread.


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## Kishido (Aug 22, 2012)

*Tobi is not OBITO*

Here is the prove

Link removed

To obivious if he really is it... Oh wait this is a teen manga :rofl


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## Black Mirror (Aug 22, 2012)

yeah it's too obvious now XD

waitin for one piece kishido? XDDD


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## Klue (Aug 22, 2012)

No point in trying to read the lines too critically, it can still go either way.


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## Kishido (Aug 22, 2012)

Of course... It will be some random character X from now on. I still bet for a stalking Ayame! Kakashi that bastard never get her feelings and she turned out to be Tobi after stealing Obito's eye


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## Black Mirror (Aug 22, 2012)

Klue said:


> No point in trying to read the lines too critically, it can still go either way.



nah, it seems like kishi thinks that we've forgotten about obito and now he wants us to remember...


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## Hossaim (Aug 22, 2012)

#TEAMIZUNA


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## Kishido (Aug 22, 2012)

It is a random character... or a Kakashi-stalking Izuma or someone else. Not Obito. For a high IQ manga ala Naruto it can't be that obivious


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## HK-47 (Aug 22, 2012)

I'm interested in that "some borrowed power" line...

Almost as if he owns it...


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## Rokudaime (Aug 22, 2012)

Mine: Anyone but definitely not Obito.

Reason: Why? Too obvious.


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## Black Mirror (Aug 22, 2012)

obvious obito is obvious... The question should be, how kishi will explain that XDD


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 22, 2012)

I've never thought he was Obito and I'm not changing my opinion. I honestly have no clue who it could be.


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## Kishido (Aug 22, 2012)

I give a damn... I jsut will enjoy next week


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## Golden Witch (Aug 22, 2012)

Black Mirror said:


> nah, it seems like kishi thinks that we've forgotten about obito and now he wants us to remember...



Does he think we're stupid or something?


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## Louis-954 (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito or Kagami, leaning towards Kagami.


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## Kishido (Aug 22, 2012)

HK-47 said:


> I'm interested in that "some borrowed power" line...
> 
> Almost as if he owns it...



He meant himself to prove that he can't be Obito... It's not that Kakashi borrowed the power


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## Klue (Aug 22, 2012)

I'm completely torn, but I think my desire for Tobi to be someone other than Obito is the only thing preventing me from admitting what is constantly smacking me in the face.

Fuck Obito.


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## Black Mirror (Aug 22, 2012)

KiShiDo said:


> I give a damn... I jsut will enjoy next week



haha nothing worse than "destined child" can happen anyway ... ... ... oh kishi will troll everyone


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## PikaCheeka (Aug 22, 2012)

Not Obito.

Kakashi was too uncertain. If he said it definitely couldn't be Obito, that's one thing, but he was clearly trying to convince himself it wasn't the case, though he believed it was the case. 

Still putting my money on a Madara clone thing or Izuna.

Maybe I'm stubborn to the point of stupidity but I won't give up on Kishi just yet. He can't be that shitty of an author.


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## tnorbo (Aug 22, 2012)

unfortunately its obito.


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## Scizor (Aug 22, 2012)

Like with Minato, amirite?


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## Kusa (Aug 22, 2012)

I think he is definitely not Obito.Or I hope so.


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## Talis (Aug 22, 2012)

Its over, give up.
He's Obito.


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## Xin (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito Uchiha

btw: Epic picture(naruto/598/18)


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## Easley (Aug 22, 2012)

If Kishi actually thinks he's surprising anyone...

Maybe he's been living under a rock and never reads the internet? Yes, that must be it.


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## Black Mirror (Aug 22, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> Does he think we're stupid or something?



since when were you under the impression that kishi wasn't thinking that?


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## Mr Horrible (Aug 22, 2012)

I am predicting a Kishi cockblock and swap to Sasuke.


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## Kishido (Aug 22, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Its over, give up.
> He's Obito.



No he isn't!!!

Seriously it is just some other Uchiha, who has stolen Obito's body and was stalking Kakashi all the time!

You will see. It can't be that obivious... he may just really is Tobi


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## goldendriger (Aug 22, 2012)

I think its safe to say its 90% chance its Obito, if not there better be a damn good reason how Tobi knew about Obito, where he died, how he took his crushed eye, and how he unlocked a MS that isnt his.


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## Phemt (Aug 22, 2012)

LOL @ it's too obvious now.

No shit, the mask has broke.

If it isn't obvious now when is it supposed to be obvious?

As a matter of fact it's been obvious since the start.


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## Vash (Aug 22, 2012)

Scarlet Plague said:


> Does he think we're stupid or something?



He would be right to think that.


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## Mephissto (Aug 22, 2012)

Ofc he is Obito by now. 
He has his sharingan.
He knows a lot about Kakashi and has a grudge against him.
He is the only uchiha his death never really was confirmed.
he consists out of zutsu goo partially probably because he was crushed.


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## Talis (Aug 22, 2012)

Think for a second, Kakashis reminds the memorial stone, Gai even reffers to it that he knows what hes thinking about, Kishi didnt even mention Obito's name, because its him, tobi.


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## PikaCheeka (Aug 22, 2012)

Itachi being a villain was too obvious, too.

Oh wait.

Using the "this is a kids manga" doesn't work here, because people are STILL reeling from Itachi's reveal after four and a half years. Kishi had no problem pulling the rug on people for assuming something because it was obvious back then. Why do people assume he lost his balls now?


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## Dragash1 (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito Dammn it next week seems so long.


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## kramned45 (Aug 22, 2012)

Harashima Senju, bcoz i dont have any idea on how to explain it,lol


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## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

> Still putting my money on a Madara clone thing or Izuna.


 Realy?



> Maybe I'm stubborn to the point of stupidity but I won't give up on Kishi just yet. He can't be that shitty of an author.


I hope you realize Tobi being Izuna or a Madara clone is shitty writing, not Tobi being Obito.

I'm so sorry Kishi decided to stick with established themes he's had since the beginning of the story, and not cater to your Madara fetishes.


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## Black Mirror (Aug 22, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Itachi being a villain was too obvious, too.
> 
> Oh wait.
> 
> Using the "this is a kids manga" doesn't work here, because people are STILL reeling from Itachi's reveal after four and a half years. Kishi had no problem pulling the rug on people for assuming something because it was obvious back then. Why do people assume he lost his balls now?



Kishi didn't know hismself that itachi wasn't a villain


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## Amarillo del Bosque Verde (Aug 22, 2012)

I love how the concept of Tobi being Obito went from:

_"It makes zero sense for him to be Obito! people is delusional to even think about it!"_

To:

_"Man if its Obito it would suck... I mean it being Obito its just too obvious! everyone saw it coming from a mile away!"_

All in the span of just a couple chapters...


(Wait... I feel I posted something like this before...)


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## nadinkrah (Aug 22, 2012)

Mephissto said:


> Ofc he is Obito by now.
> He has his sharingan.
> He knows a lot about Kakashi and has a grudge against him.
> He is the only uchiha his death never really was confirmed.
> he consists out of zutsu goo partially probably because he was crushed.



Obito has been confirmed dead in the manga.


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## ? (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito             .


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## Marsala (Aug 22, 2012)

Evil Future Sasuke possessed by Orochimaru with Obito's right eye and Izuna's left eye and Madara's chakra and memories.


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## sdm007 (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito it is.


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## Vash (Aug 22, 2012)

Klue said:


> I'm completely torn, but I think my desire for Tobi to be someone other than Obito is the only thing preventing me from admitting what is constantly smacking me in the face.
> 
> Fuck Obito.



This.

Fuck Obito.


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## Mephissto (Aug 22, 2012)

nadinkrah said:


> Obito has been confirmed dead in the manga.



Wasn't he just left under the rock?


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## Saiko (Aug 22, 2012)

Juubi Soul/Ghost


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## HK-47 (Aug 22, 2012)

KiShiDo said:


> He meant himself to prove that he can't be Obito... It's not that Kakashi borrowed the power



"I'm not afraid of some borrowed power that you can only use a bunch of times."

I don't see how you came to this, this line doesn't PROVE anything. I'm no Tobi=Obito conspirator but it's an interesting line.

Do you just want him to not be Obito that badly?



nadinkrah said:


> Obito has been confirmed dead in the manga.



Assumed dead, but very safe to assume so.

Nobody actually witnessed him in his dying breath (not even the reader), so there's a little bit of wiggle room left.


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## hussamb (Aug 22, 2012)

Rin, and that why they have the MS, both of kakashi and her feel that they killed there best friend and took his eyes


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## Xin (Aug 22, 2012)

> Wasn't he just left under the rock?



Yes he was, because it wouldve been too dangerous to get his body in the middle of that war.


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## Viper (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito. May Zaru strike me down with red if it isn't.


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## αce (Aug 22, 2012)

Once again he's slapping you in the face with Obito.
To reveal that it's Obito after you basically confirmed it is stupid.


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## Hossaim (Aug 22, 2012)

*I admit defeat*

I was a Tobi = Izuna supporter.

But a line confirms that Tobi is Obito.


*Spoiler*: __ 







This means that Tobi was the original owner of that eye, because hes getting made at Kakashi for a borrowed one. 

Obito fans iv argued with...

you win. Congrats.


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## Marsala (Aug 22, 2012)

Tobi is either Obito or somebody else (or Obito AND somebody else).




...and then it turns out he's really NO ONE! GASP!


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## Malevolens (Aug 22, 2012)

i expect him to be any1 but obito..i justdont believe its him
BTW i kinda expect next chapter to switch to Kages VS madara or to Sasuke/Oro


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## Kishido (Aug 22, 2012)

HK-47 said:


> "I'm not afraid of some borrowed power that you can only use a bunch of times."
> 
> I don't see how you came to this, this line doesn't PROVE anything. I'm no Tobi=Obito conspirator but it's an interesting line.
> 
> ...



I'm sarcastic as fuck... next time I will make itmore obivious


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## Phemt (Aug 22, 2012)

The Izuna supporters never had any ground to base their theories on.

It was all mindless fluff without substance.


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## Sarry (Aug 22, 2012)

*Tobi being Obito is too obvious!*

While I reading the chapter, I kept thinking the hints pointing towards Obito are too obvious. Maybe a bit too much for kishi's usual style of giving hints. 

I am starting to believe Kishi is leading us towards Obito on purpose as a decoy. Tobi will be something or someone different all together.


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## Hossaim (Aug 22, 2012)

Sutol said:


> The Izuna supporters never had any ground to base their theories on.
> 
> It was all mindless fluff without substance.



Same height and weight in databook...

makes sense with timeline and character, unlike obito...


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## Kishido (Aug 22, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> I was a Tobi = Izuna supporter.
> 
> But a line confirms that Tobi is Obito.
> 
> ...



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

TOO OBIVOUS... It can't be HIM


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## hussamb (Aug 22, 2012)

where is the poll so i could place my bet


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## TobiSO6P (Aug 22, 2012)

It's not confirmed yet, don't give up until it is shown who he is, all I will say now is expect a big plot twist


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## BroKage (Aug 22, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Itachi being a villain was too obvious, too.
> 
> Oh wait.
> 
> Using the "this is a kids manga" doesn't work here, because people are STILL reeling from Itachi's reveal after four and a half years. Kishi had no problem pulling the rug on people for assuming something because it was obvious back then. Why do people assume he lost his balls now?


Except Itachi being good was just as obvious as the Pain/Nagato and Tobi/Obito shit.

Kishi dropped loads of hints what with Itachi leaving Kakashi alive, running from Jiraiya when Kisame thought he could win, having to be pressured by Pain into giving intel on the Kyuubi's Jinchuuriki, smirking when he got Rasengan'd, and being listed as having completed just one S-Class mission in the Databook.

Kishi foreshadows to middle school levels. I don't see how this "secret" wasn't a blatant possibility to so many readers; probably just wishful thinking that Itachi had no sob story.


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## Amarillo del Bosque Verde (Aug 22, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Not Obito.
> 
> Kakashi was too uncertain. If he said it definitely couldn't be Obito, that's one thing, but he was clearly trying to convince himself it wasn't the case, though he believed it was the case.
> 
> ...



I don't give a damn about who Tobi is, but seriously man?

You are gonna label Kishimoto as a crappy author for POSSIBLY confirming something he has been hinting and foreshadowing for YEARS simply because it doesn't fit your own visions and interpretations of the manga?

I guess you being wrong about what Kishi planed for Tobi is TOO MUCH of a non-possibility (god forbid you being wrong about how the story was planned!) so the only other explanation for Tobi being Obito after all those years of hints is that Kishi simply is a crappy writer.

Okay then!


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## Mako (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito with a touch of Zetsu in there.


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## Klue (Aug 22, 2012)

Okay, I begrudgingly admit that Obito is by far the leading candiate at this point, but that line doesn't necessarily prove it true.

Tobi states that he isn't afraid of Kakashi's power and also states why: "Borrowed power that can only be used a few times."

Technically, Tobi's power could also be borrowed but he can use it as many times as he likes.


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## DHxCohaco (Aug 22, 2012)

please kishi not him ... don't make him obito 
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


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## αce (Aug 22, 2012)

> Except Itachi being good was just as obvious as the Pain/Nagato and Tobi/Obito shit.



Don't give me this bullshit. No one saw it coming.
And people are fucking nitpicking so much. OH HE SAID KAMUI IS HIS ORIGINAL POWER.

Well guess fucking what? He said the same thing about Madara's abiltieis IN FRONT OF A MAN WHO ALREADY KNEW HE WASN'T MADARA.

If you take one statement seriously you have to take the other just as seriously.
Next chapter Obito's face is gonna be shown. Kakashi and Gai will cry. Naruto will not know who the fuck it is. The forums will shit themselves only for Madara to show up a couple chapters later and basically confirm it to be someone else.

Quote me on it now. I don't feel like wasting another week of my life ripping my hair out.


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## TobiSO6P (Aug 22, 2012)

I have this feeling too, these hints are indicating that Tobi is anyone aside from Madara and Obito


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## cloudsymph (Aug 22, 2012)

not obito for me

or rather i don't want it to be


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## hussamb (Aug 22, 2012)

@Amarillo del Bosque Verde 
how do you explain why Kakashi and Tobi has MS ?


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## Klue (Aug 22, 2012)

Kishimoto is the same author that completely ruined Pain's secret before Nagato was revealed. So, the fact that he is shoving the idea down our throats, isn't necessarily reason to believe he is toying with us.


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## ShenLong Kazama (Aug 22, 2012)

Honestly, i don't give a shit anymore, i wait until next week. However..........

Fuck Obito!


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## Grendel (Aug 22, 2012)

He called kakashi's power borrowed...which seems strange if he's borrowing it himself


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## Easley (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito is better than the other Uchiha candidates - at least he has a personal connection to Kakashi, but I still hope that he's not an Uchiha at all. Well, that's me wanting a surprise but it doesn't seem likely now.


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## Yamata no Orochi (Aug 22, 2012)

I wish I had a time machine right now. :ho


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## Hossaim (Aug 22, 2012)

Like how Nagato was too obvious as the leader of pain?

I don't like it either, but I can accept reality.


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## cloudsymph (Aug 22, 2012)

he's the top candidate, but i'm still don't think it's obito.  i mean the eye just simply shows that it's obito's eye.

plus i've been against it being obito the whole time, not saying it's not straight up, more that i rather it not be him


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## Amarillo del Bosque Verde (Aug 22, 2012)

hussamb said:


> @Amarillo del Bosque Verde
> how do you explain why Kakashi and Tobi has MS ?



I cant explain that until Kakashi or Tobi tell us in the manga which I hope happens sooner ratter than later.

Unlike other users in these forums I have no access to Kishimoto's mind or can see the future, so I'm stuck to simply wait for a chapter to tell me stuff.


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## Reddan (Aug 22, 2012)

Tobi NOW is 100% Obito. However, before that he was Madara controlling Obito's body.


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## Raiden (Aug 22, 2012)

Sounds like a good chapter for some good ol dramatic irony.

I'd say based on the set up, it's probably Obito's body.


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## αce (Aug 22, 2012)

Except the Nagato comparison is invalid. He actually left A LOT OF STUFF in the dark. He's basically telling us who Tobi is without saying the name. And given the fact that Pain's identity wasn't necessarily that big of a deal, it was acceptable. He's held Tobi's identity secret for 300 chapters now. To give away the identity of Tobi prematurely is terrible writing. The funny thing is, I'm the one defending Kishi's writing abilities here. Go fucking figure.


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## odilbek123 (Aug 22, 2012)

It's Danzo.


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## fralamp88 (Aug 22, 2012)

My thoughts exactly. Kishimoto isn't that great when it comes to huge secrets. He just wanted to build up towards the moment of the revelation and show that Kakashi understood it all (and Gai too) and they're so bothered by it.


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## Final Jutsu (Aug 22, 2012)

its obito      .


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## Mei Lin (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito Is Tobi the wording, ,Only Obito Can make Kakashi hesitate,Obito  must have a grudge how Rin died,and we'll see the backstory soon,hence  how Kakashi will play his major role in the war,and how many people Does  Kakashi knows that have Sharigan,and the fact Tobi always have one  eye,and the fact that Kakashi's Kamui was sent to the same dimension as  Tobi's Kamui,and Tobi has the same hair cut as Obito. Obito has Orange  goggles and clothing,Tobi has a orange mask.


  stated that he acquired the  in his right eye socket here as well during the Third Shinobi World War.
 17 years ago Obito died,all leds to Obito being Tobi,atleast his body .


OBITO ,or Kakashi's relatives lulz


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## Talis (Aug 22, 2012)

You might as well make this thread also once his face is shown.


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## Kid (Aug 22, 2012)

Damn there goes my Akamaru theory


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## Phemt (Aug 22, 2012)

My goodness.

It should've been obvious to you since the start:



NOT NOW THAT THE FRICKIN MASK HAS BROKEN! AND SO YOU THINK NO NO IT CAN'T BE OBITO IT'S TOO OBVIOUS!

OF COURSE IT'S OBVIOUS NOW! How can it not be?! His identity will be revealed next chap! When is it supposed to be obvious it not now?!

Jesus.


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## Adagio (Aug 22, 2012)

Its still not too late. You never know.


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## Sarry (Aug 22, 2012)

Klue said:


> Kishimoto is the same author that completely ruined Pain's secret before Nagato was revealed. So, the fact that he is shoving the idea down our throats, isn't necessarily reason to believe he is toying with us.



I know. But it is a strong possibility that it is a decoy. Much like Tobi pretended to be Madara only to discover he isn't [assuming Tobi is a zetzu-clone with Madara DNA.].

Kishi can do the same thing.


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## Seraphoenix (Aug 22, 2012)

It could be like with Sasuke, where it is an Uchiha telling a non-Uchiha that his power is borrowed


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## Asherah (Aug 22, 2012)

Izuna or anyone who isn't Obito.


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## Nuuskis (Aug 22, 2012)

I hope he isn't Obito but Madara's clone made from Zetsu and Izanagi.

Next week we'll see...


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## Mei Lin (Aug 22, 2012)

this


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## Itachisaywat (Aug 22, 2012)

Maybe Tobi unlocked the MS over the time-skip and allowed Kakashi to awaken it in the process 

Oh I give in, dat Obito


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## Sarry (Aug 22, 2012)

Going by the simplest choice: Obito. 

However, I really hope Kishi is misleading us.


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## Asherah (Aug 22, 2012)

That doesn't prove shit. Sasuke's shown exactly the same attitude towards Kakashi before. This is worth a thread, really?


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## Mako (Aug 22, 2012)

I gave in two-three weeks ago  I feel your pain.


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## Daryoon (Aug 22, 2012)

It's a children's comic...


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## Vargas (Aug 22, 2012)

Hahahahahaha


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## Arles Celes (Aug 22, 2012)

So was Pain's identity. Even more when Konan revealed that it was Nagato after all before the former made his actual appearance as an adult.

Sometimes the simples aswers are the most likely ones. Complex theories are too sophisticated for Kishi.

This isn't a seinen anyway...


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## αce (Aug 22, 2012)

The fuck. Never give in until the end.
And if you're wrong, just don't visit the telegrams that said week. Problem solved. This place sucks anyways.


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## Summers (Aug 22, 2012)

Chickens, the whole lot of ya. Not me ya bastards. Not taking me down ever.

Tobi is not Obito, it is not Izuna, it is not Kagami, its not Fugaku, not future sasuke-naruto, no no to Madara, surely not Zetsu programmed pawn of someone else either.


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## Edo Madara (Aug 22, 2012)

If Tobito is true then I will lose my whole respect to kishi 
it will need the biggest asspulls in this manga for that to make sense


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## Reddan (Aug 22, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Itachi being a villain was too obvious, too.
> 
> Oh wait.
> 
> Using the "this is a kids manga" doesn't work here, because people are STILL reeling from Itachi's reveal after four and a half years. Kishi had no problem pulling the rug on people for assuming something because it was obvious back then. Why do people assume he lost his balls now?



No, Itachi being a good guy was obvious and what was even more obvious is he loved Sasuke. Kishimoto only gave us a last minute shock with the stealing Sasuke's eyes. Even that shock only lasted until Itachi poked Sasuke on the foreheand.

Madara was controlling or had part of his soul inside Obito for most of the manga. However, it was always going to be Obito's body and from a while back it seems he is in control now. The interesting question is what killed Madara? Kabuto summoning Madara probably messed up the control Madara had over Obito's body. Kabuto was a fool, who did not know what he was dealing with.


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## Chaos Hokage (Aug 22, 2012)

The most obvious choice would be Obito. But based on what Kishi stated about Tobi & Madara actually meeting each other before, I think Tobi is really Uchiha Kagami. If it's not him or Obito, then it would really be shocking & kinda lame if it's a new character.


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## Oahgneg (Aug 22, 2012)

So:

1) the masked man responsible for Kurama's rampage on Konoha, & fought Minato was a THIRTEEN YEAR OLD CHUUNIN

2) Obito has 3 eyes: 1 taken by Kakashi, 1 lost to Izanagi usage, & his Kamui eye


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## Ezekial (Aug 22, 2012)

NO! Stay strong, nothing is proven until it's proven, and Kishi still has no convincing way to prove it, all evidence points to Izuna


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## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> I was a Tobi = Izuna supporter.
> 
> But a line confirms that Tobi is Obito.
> 
> ...


It's sad to see you like this, Hossaim.

It's not exactly confirmed yet though (unfortunately).

But at least you can admit you were wrong instead of bitching about it.



Hossaim said:


> Same height and weight in databook...


So people stay the same height and weight for 80 years?



> makes sense with timeline and character, unlike obito...


Apparently, Obito makes more sense.



DHxCohaco said:


> please kishi not him ... don't make him obito
> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


Already going crazy, eh?

I shall enjoy the coming shitstorms oh so very much!


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## Sarry (Aug 22, 2012)

Sutol said:


> My goodness.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Hence my gut feeling saying it is a decoy. 
Having Tobi resemble Obito too much, so that we'd be misled for a 'shocking plot twist'.

[miniranting]Hell, how would Obito obtain such massive knowledge and such bitterness?[/miniranting]


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## αce (Aug 22, 2012)

> He called kakashi's power borrowed...which seems strange if he's borrowing it himself



It's strange in any sense considering he's done nothing but borrow powers from other people. Nagato, Madara, Hashirama Obito


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## BlazingCobaltX (Aug 22, 2012)

Never give up 'till the end... But I admit I'm pretty close to believing Tobito now.


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## Mateush (Aug 22, 2012)

I understand your pain. I'm ready to get $100 from lucid1


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## Summers (Aug 22, 2012)

Amarillo del Bosque Verde said:


> I love how the concept of Tobi being Obito went from:
> 
> _"It makes zero sense for him to be Obito! people is delusional to even think about it!"_
> 
> ...



Probably have posted this before or seen someone as post this prediction as people started that disgusting ass-covering last time they though Tobi was going to be revealed.

Crow, 6th coffin, and the other constantly spammed mysteries. Same things happens every-time, people start covering their bases.


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## Grendel (Aug 22, 2012)

The borrowed line pretty much confirmed obito for me..


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## Kishido (Aug 22, 2012)

Daryoon said:


> It's a children's comic...



We have a winne... it would be like saying... Naruto ebcoming Hokage will eb too obivious... He won't and instead Neji will become Hokage


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## αce (Aug 22, 2012)

Let's make Tobi Obito.
No one will see this coming.


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## LostSelf (Aug 22, 2012)

Kishi doesn't know that somewhere in the world lies a forum of theorists.


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## αce (Aug 22, 2012)

> I love how the concept of Tobi being Obito went from:
> 
> _"It makes zero sense for him to be Obito! people is delusional to even think about it!"_
> 
> ...



Except it didn't change.
Nice try.


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## Itαchi (Aug 22, 2012)

Respect to the Op. With Tobi being Obito the manga makes sense again, to me.


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## Summers (Aug 22, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Don't give me this bullshit. No one saw it coming.
> And people are fucking nitpicking so much. OH HE SAID KAMUI IS HIS ORIGINAL POWER.
> 
> Well guess fucking what? He said the same thing about Madara's abiltieis IN FRONT OF A MAN WHO ALREADY KNEW HE WASN'T MADARA.
> ...



I hate that people dont do that, they use the Tobi lies thing when its convenient then only take the stuff they like as absolute fact. Unless they have a manga cannon reason for why he lied that time but no the other then dont bring it up.


----------



## christoncrutches (Aug 22, 2012)

A few thoughts from a (primary) lurker:

It seems to be almost certain at this point that Tobi is in fact Obito. The theory was an extreme longshot from the character's introduction, but the hints (some as in-your-face as you can get) without dropping Obito's name over the past few chapters have made this identity very likely.

I'd be lying if I said that I'm not disappointed in the probable outcome, but not for obvious reasons. I started following the manga around the end of P1, so while I'm not in as deep as some of you guys, it's been quite a while...and I'm not quite ready to get off the ride, so to speak. An Obito reveal places a definite limitation on the directions in which the story could go (in my mind at least).

I'm not terribly attached to any of the other possibilities, but Izuna* and RS's Elder Son both would mean more for the plot for a couple of reasons. Firstly characters are more closely linked to the central plot, making flashbacks/extensive backstory far more likely. Second, both characters would allow the story to go in a much deeper, darker direction.

You won't hear any empty threats of dropping the series from me, but it seems like so many of the potential possibilities have been eliminated...oh well, at least we still have Black Zetsu and Juubi. I guess I'll have to stick to seinen if I want a richer story (dammit, somebody needs to translate more of Billy Bat!).

* the one neat part of an Izuna reveal is the parallel that could be drawn between Madara/Izuna with ∞-Tsukuyomi and Charles/V.V. with the Sword of Akasha plot...though that was far from a guarantee even if he was Tobi, if Kishi pulled this off it would be amazing


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 22, 2012)

*Tobi having Obito's eye could mean he's Izuna.*

Unlike the cowards who have already surrendered to Tobi = Obito, I will never. 
But how does his eye prove he's Obito? It doesn't, Madara took Izuna's eyes therefore he had none "I picked it up at Kannabi bridge" that sentence alone give crediblity to Tobi = Izuna, he found Obito's eye.

Like it or not Kishi can in no way realistically write Tobi to be Obito, he can however write him to be Izuna very easily.

P.S stay strong my fellow anti Obito theorists


----------



## lathia (Aug 22, 2012)

No "I admit threads." /thrashed.


----------



## odilbek123 (Aug 22, 2012)

It is Danzo


----------



## Grendel (Aug 22, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> It's strange in any sense considering he's done nothing but borrow powers from other people. Nagato, Madara, Hashirama Obito



True...but I just can't see him giving kakashi shit about borrowed power if they happen to both be borrowing that power


----------



## nadinkrah (Aug 22, 2012)

giving up all fast and shit.


fail


----------



## Coldhands (Aug 22, 2012)

The only problem that I really have with Tobito is his fight with Minato, which doesn't make ANY sense whatsoever.

I still think he's Izuna.


----------



## Sareth (Aug 22, 2012)

Seraphoenix said:


> It could be like with Sasuke, where it is an Uchiha telling a non-Uchiha that his power is borrowed


This. Tobi, the guy talking like he's at least over 70 years old, is not Obito in mind. He's just using his body and eye power.


----------



## αce (Aug 22, 2012)

Don't make Izuna threads until it's shown that Obito isn't Tobi.
Our time has not come yet


----------



## Amarillo del Bosque Verde (Aug 22, 2012)

Since this is pretty much the last week of the Tobi's identity debate I guess I should share my thoughts.

I really don't care who he is, I never cared but I had an issue with the whole Tobi topic, that was finally solved today.

My problem was that for years and years people tried SO HARD to pretend even a connection between Tobi and Obito existing was absurd, they pretended all the hints pointing towards Obito were not there, that people even thinking about Tobi even being remotely related to Obito were out of their goddamn minds.

But today I finally see all those people that once pretended Tobito was not hinted are complaining about how obivious it was, they finally admit that the hints are THERE and even go as far as using the obvious nature of the link between them as a counter-argument, the irony is delicious and makes me smile!

So my biggest issue with the Tobi/Obito deal its solved, and I could not be more happy that all those baffling and pathetic attempts at covering the hints are gone! so I no longer care who he ends being, just people stopping being purposely blind and covering the sun with a finger makes me feel satisfied.

Feels good man!




_(I'm such a horrible person!)_


----------



## DeadNinjaWalking (Aug 22, 2012)

Future Kakashi. I mean they have the same eyes, so obvious.


----------



## Nuuskis (Aug 22, 2012)

Chaos Hokage said:


> I think Tobi is really Uchiha Kagami.






Kagami who we only saw one time during a flashback? Tobi=Kagami gotta be the most stubid "theory" ever.
I would even rather choose Obito than Kagami, at least Tobi being Obito would make more sense.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 22, 2012)

Oh i'm waiting for the biggest troll thread ever, I will no doubt get banned for


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

Edo Madara said:


> If Tobito is true then I will lose my whole respect to kishi
> it will need the biggest asspulls in this manga for that to make sense


Sorry that Kishi actually cares about the story and does what's est for it and doesn't cater to your every whim.

Also, how can something that's been planned for the majority of the manga be an asspull?



Ezekial said:


> NO! Stay strong, nothing is proven until it's proven, and Kishi still has no convincing way to prove it, all evidence points to Izuna


The funny thing is, all the evidence points against Izuna.


----------



## Edo Madara (Aug 22, 2012)

I will never accept tobito even if its proven, like I said before its just doesn't make any sense and will be the biggest asspulll in this damn of manga


----------



## Dragash1 (Aug 22, 2012)

He never said he picked it up. He said he got it during the war.


----------



## Kishido (Aug 22, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Unlike the cowards who have already surrendered to Tobi = Obito, I will never.
> But how does his eye prove he's Obito? It doesn't, Madara took Izuna's eyes therefore he had none "I picked it up at Kannabi bridge" that sentence alone give crediblity to Tobi = Izuna, he found Obito's eye.
> 
> Like it or not Kishi can in no way realistically write Tobi to be Obito, he can however write him to be Izuna very easily.
> ...



Or he simply took madara's eyes instead...


----------



## BlazingCobaltX (Aug 22, 2012)

Hossaim said:


> #TEAMIZUNA


This! To the end!


----------



## PikaCheeka (Aug 22, 2012)

Edo Madara said:


> I will never accept tobito even if its proven, like I said before its just doesn't make any sense and will be the biggest asspulll in this damn of manga



I'm sorry I'm 24ed, because you deserve a rep more than most of the people I've repped in the last 24 hours.

Tobito happening would be like Kishi giving up entirely on his manga. I can't see any self-respecting author do it, and I'll be horribly embarrassed if I wasted years of my life reading something that the author himself doesn't care about.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 22, 2012)

KiShiDo said:


> Or he simply took madara's eyes instead...



No he never


----------



## BroKage (Aug 22, 2012)

Yeah, another "too obvious" identity mystery was the 6th Coffin being the real Madara.

Kishi literally had Kabuto refer to Tobi as Madara _as a joke_, with Tobi calling him a wise guy for it. There's no way the joke would've been funny if Tobi was actually Madara, so the clear conclusion was that he wasn't. The coffin also had to be someone stronger than Nagato and/or someone who could majorly screw up Tobi's plans. Only logical answer was Madara. And then it became reality 80 or so chapters later.



♠Ace♠ said:


> Don't give me this bullshit. No one saw it coming.


Sure it was years ago, but the absurd "Itachi = good guy" theory threads DID exist. 



♠Ace♠ said:


> Next chapter Obito's face is gonna be shown. Kakashi and Gai will cry. Naruto will not know who the fuck it is. The forums will shit themselves only for Madara to show up a couple chapters later and basically confirm it to be someone else.


Well if Tobi's not Obito, I guess that would be the most likely scenario. Leave it to Madara to troll the fandom.


----------



## Guiness (Aug 22, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Let's make Tobi Obito.
> No one will see this coming.



Twist of the decade.


----------



## Lovely (Aug 22, 2012)

Its Obito.


----------



## AoshiKun (Aug 22, 2012)

I prefer the ideia of Kishimoto misleading the fans however I wouldn't be surprised if he is really hinting Tobi is Obito.


----------



## bearzerger (Aug 22, 2012)

Well, not that I put much stock in it, but I'm gonna say he's Kagami using Obito's body. Since Kagami means mirror he decided to spell part of Obito's name backwards. My proof? Kishi loves lame puns.


----------



## TheEnemy (Aug 22, 2012)

Just so it's publicly known, I don't think it's Obito. My guess would be Kagami.

Yet with all these clear hints especially with the latest chapter, it would be dull to point toward Obito so much, only to say It's someone else because it would make all these hints wasted panels to purposely and directly mislead us. Yet I have a feeling that it's not Obito and I'm sticking to it.


----------



## christoncrutches (Aug 22, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> Well, not that I put much stock in it, but I'm gonna say he's Kagami using Obito's body. Since Kagami means mirror he decided to spell part of Obito's name backwards. My proof? Kishi loves lame puns.



not to sound stalkerish, but this post of yours:



and the ensuing conversation really got me back into the manga 

it's unfortunate that we're (likely) not going to see Kishi take any of the directions higher on that list


----------



## Pretty Good Satan (Aug 22, 2012)

It's Obito!


----------



## NarutoSamaMan (Aug 22, 2012)

Why would it be Obito that would be the most anti-climactic thing in the history of manga.


----------



## Talis (Aug 22, 2012)

*Cough* *Cough* Madara (Obito) script.


----------



## Dr. Obvious (Aug 22, 2012)

It's pry Madara using the same body transfer jutsu as Orochimaru.


----------



## TobiSO6P (Aug 22, 2012)

Oahgneg said:


> So:
> 
> 1) the masked man responsible for Kurama's rampage on Konoha, & fought Minato was a THIRTEEN YEAR OLD CHUUNIN
> 
> 2) Obito has 3 eyes: 1 taken by Kakashi, 1 lost to Izanagi usage, & his Kamui eye



Have you seen Tobi's hideout?
If so then you would've have said the "2"


----------



## Fay (Aug 22, 2012)

I don't really care...my bets are Obito, but somewhere I'm hoping Rin.


----------



## Skeith (Aug 22, 2012)

hussamb said:


> @Amarillo del Bosque Verde
> how do you explain why Kakashi and Tobi has MS ?



Tobi did have two Shargian up until his fight with Konan and has a room full of them that he has collected over the years. Him having Obito eyes is as simple as him collecting it just like all the others. 


Anyway....have to do this. 



Naruto: *WHO ARE YOU?!*


Tobi: I'm the God Damn Batman!


----------



## T-Bag (Aug 22, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Let's make Tobi Obito.
> No one will see this coming.


----------



## bearzerger (Aug 22, 2012)

fpliii said:


> not to sound stalkerish, but this post of yours:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmm, I'm quite happy that even looking back after almost a year my posts don't seem like nonsense to me.


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 22, 2012)

I'm so sorry. 

He pretty much built up Obito for non-hardcore fans (Like Kakashi didn't even think about Obito's face) and if he makes someone irrevelant at this point it'll be riddiculous.

*mask breaks*
Tobi: Hello I'm X
Kakashi: THANK GOD HE IS NOT OBITO.

So dramatic.


----------



## DonutKid (Aug 22, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Except the Nagato comparison is invalid. He actually left A LOT OF STUFF in the dark. He's basically telling us who Tobi is without saying the name. And given the fact that Pain's identity wasn't necessarily that big of a deal, it was acceptable. He's held Tobi's identity secret for 300 chapters now. To give away the identity of Tobi prematurely is terrible writing. The funny thing is, I'm the one defending Kishi's writing abilities here. Go fucking figure.



i suppose its a red herring.


----------



## Mayaki (Aug 22, 2012)

It's Teuchi. I beg for it.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

its obvious because we read the chapters 1 week at a time. These are meant to be read like that but rather in 1 volume sittings. and the big hints that have been released the last few weeks, are all supposed to be read in 1 volume.


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Let's make Tobi Obito.
> No one will see this coming.


I take it you were being sarcastic, but to the casual fan, Tobi being Obito would come as quite a surprise. Also, you know that these chapters are intended to be read in ten chapter volumes, right?



NarutoSamaMan said:


> Why would it be Obito that would be the most anti-climactic thing in the history of manga.


Tobi being Obito is the only outcome that would actually _be_ climactic. I mean, didn't you say yesterday that you think Tobi is that one paneled Kagami guy?



Dr. Obvious said:


> It's pry Madara using the same body transfer jutsu as Orochimaru.


Madara's soul was in the Pure World, so he couldn't have been alive prior to his Edo Tensei resurrection.


----------



## hussamb (Aug 22, 2012)

i still dont understand why no one is thinking about Rin, she fills all the gaps.
having the other eye.
knew kakashi past
manipulating obito name 
got the MS becoz she was also killed obito!
and no one knew what happened to her at all!

the only gap on both tobi is obito or rin is the fight with 4th! i am talking regarding the fight itself not the event


----------



## gabzilla (Aug 22, 2012)

Like Yondaime being Naruto's father was obvious?



Daryoon said:


> It's a children's comic...



Yeah, seriously.

I mean, children probably aren't be dissecting every page of the manga every week.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Aug 22, 2012)

Klue said:


> Kishimoto is the same author that completely ruined Pain's secret before Nagato was revealed. So, the fact that he is shoving the idea down our throats, isn't necessarily reason to believe he is toying with us.



Kishimoto is also the same author who has 90% of us thinking Itachi was evil through and through.



Mistshadow said:


> its obvious because we read the chapters 1 week at a time. These are meant to be read like that but rather in 1 volume sittings. and the big hints that have been released the last few weeks, are all supposed to be read in 1 volume.



They're meant to be read one week at a time.

There's a reason SJ is still in print.


----------



## RasenShuriken 7 (Aug 22, 2012)

*The answer to all your Obito doubts*

Tobi and his sharigan powers utilize space time jutsu.

Space time jutsu.

space TIME jutsu.

Time jutsu.

Time. 

TIME TRAVEL!!!

Tobi is actually a time traveler who's life was saved by black Zetsu at a young age! That explains how he was able to do all this crazy shit at such a young age because he wasn't young. He was just a time traveling when he met Minato and started Akatsuki.

And to further the theory: Obito didn't travel through time to destroy the world, he's there to save it. Something terrible was coming in the future and he knew his powers were the only way to stop it but his method of doing so is wrong and twisted.

It's so obvious when you think about it.


----------



## gabzilla (Aug 22, 2012)

Corrupted Obito.

Though I doubt we'll find out next week. Kishimoto will probably switch to Sasuke till chapter 600.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> They're meant to be read one week at a time.
> 
> There's a reason SJ is still in print.



ummmmmmmmmmm No they are not. They are printed in SJ because people want to read them each week and not wait months. 
Authors write in the terms of a volume. You can BARELY cover any real ground in the span of a week. Seriously, that's why our weekly chapters often times have mistakes in the art but the volumes don't.

Or do I need to get the page out where Raikage was drawn to have his right arm back...........


----------



## Roronoa Zoro (Aug 22, 2012)

Louis-954 said:


> Obito or Kagami, leaning towards Kagami.



Same as this


----------



## Fruit Monger (Aug 22, 2012)

This thread lacks a poll.

Until I see his face, Tobi is still Madara to me.  Obviously he isn't truly Madara, but some sort of form of him, possibly a part of his spirit/mind/etc.  Tobi is far to wise, cunning, diabolical, and experienced to be a chump like Obito.  

I find it hard to believe that Obito is Tobi...I have an easier time believing that Tobi is some sort of hodgepodge of Uchiha souls than Obito.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

idk who it is guys, I mean anyone who has been lurking the official tobi identity threads knows I don't know much about the theories. And this chapter made it impossible to be obito because Kakashi said "No.......That's not possible"


----------



## son_michael (Aug 22, 2012)

if anybody actually bets against obito after this chapter then they are a fool




the "too obvious" argument is ludicrous


----------



## Mei Lin (Aug 22, 2012)

hussamb said:


> i still dont understand why no one is thinking about Rin, she fills all the gaps.
> having the other eye.
> knew kakashi past
> manipulating obito name
> ...



Tobi is  a Woman,No


----------



## Blur (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito     .


----------



## Sarry (Aug 22, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> Yeah, seriously.
> 
> I mean, children probably aren't be dissecting every page of the manga every week.


If that happened, The library would be empty and boring


----------



## Chuck (Aug 22, 2012)

hopefully Kishi won't be so obvious and actually reveal him to be someone who's NOT Obito.


----------



## Wraith_Madara (Aug 22, 2012)

Tobi is either the Ramen guy, Izuna or Noone (the Madara-shell).

I'll accept him being Obito when it's all laid on the table in front of me, with a "nice" explanation to what the **** happend.


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 22, 2012)

I'm telling this since the beginning.

He's the Doctor

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CYDgezeQas[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Talis (Aug 22, 2012)

Moon~ said:


> I'm so sorry.
> 
> He pretty much built up Obito for non-hardcore fans (Like Kakashi didn't even think about Obito's face) and if he makes someone irrevelant at this point it'll be riddiculous.
> 
> ...


Jep, forum lacks common knowledge.
Nothing news, he says hes character x with the mask on for years and they believe its him.
Writer gives in/direct hints they wont believe.


----------



## Nagato Sennin (Aug 22, 2012)

Just like Nagato was too obvious?


----------



## cokshura (Aug 22, 2012)

gabzilla said:


> Corrupted Obito.
> 
> Though I doubt we'll find out next week. Kishimoto will probably switch to Sasuke till chapter 600.



How could he play that though? The mask is already broken and it's already chap 598 so that only leaves one chap for him to go to Sasuke. Then going back one chap after back to Tobi's face would be pointless and anticlimatic.


----------



## andrea (Aug 22, 2012)

It can't just be Obito and that's it. There's still tons of plot holes left open by that explanation. Like how the hell can a 13 y-o unleash a tailed beast on an entire village and survive an encounter with Minato in his prime. Even if Tobi is Obito, there's more to the story than that.


----------



## ifkisowning (Aug 22, 2012)

Moon~ said:


> I'm so sorry.
> 
> He pretty much built up Obito for non-hardcore fans (Like Kakashi didn't even think about Obito's face) and if he makes someone irrevelant at this point it'll be riddiculous.
> 
> ...



  

THANK GOD HE IS SOME RANDOM FODDER


----------



## cokshura (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> idk who it is guys, I mean anyone who has been lurking the official tobi identity threads knows I don't know much about the theories. And this chapter made it impossible to be obito because Kakashi said "No.......That's not possible"



I wish you where right, believe me, but the "No....that's not possible" doesn't necesarily mean literally not possible but that it is very hard to accept the truth.

Here comes...A STAR WARS QUOTE! :

Vader: "Luke, I am you father."

Luke: "No...that's impossible! NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOO! (Epic face)"


----------



## Black Mirror (Aug 22, 2012)

Oh this thread has so much TRUNKS in it.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Aug 22, 2012)

I find it funny how Tobito fans focus so heavily on the timeline argument, and try to act like those against the theory only have the timeline on their side, when in reality the problems number into the double-digits.


----------



## Amatérasu’s Son (Aug 22, 2012)

Moon~ said:


> I'm telling this since the beginning.
> 
> He's the Doctor


The Doctor would not be losing right now.


Black Mirror said:


> Oh this thread has so much TRUNKS in it.



Trunks uses a sword and slices people when he pulls them into a Black Void


----------



## Summers (Aug 22, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> I find it funny how Tobito fans focus so heavily on the timeline argument, and try to act like those against the theory only have the timeline on their side, when in reality the problems number into the double-digits.



Its what makes up that timeline that is important. Cannon events, statements,Databook even interviews is what make up that timeline. They dislike the timeline because it is accumulation of every argument that proves that it cant be Obito.


----------



## Summers (Aug 22, 2012)

Amat?rasu?s Son said:


> The Doctor would not be losing right now.
> 
> 
> Trunks uses a sword and slices people when he pulls them into a Black Void


The Doctor defeats his enemys with TNJ. If ya stop and listen to him ya lose.


----------



## Nic (Aug 22, 2012)

kishi's style is to be obvious, this is a manga for children.


----------



## αce (Aug 22, 2012)

nagato's dog


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Aug 22, 2012)

He is a mokuton clone.
Of either madara or hashirama. Might be hashirama himself.

How? in the case of him being hashirama, genjutsu.


----------



## shintebukuro (Aug 22, 2012)

I still don't think it's Obito. And I'm actually less confident that he has Obito's face now than before...

Because, in this chapter, Tobi mocks Kakashi for using borrowed power and boasts he will show him the true strength of Kamui...yet Kakashi beats him in a battle of speed in using it. It would be kind of silly for Kakashi to beat Obito at his own game.

My guess is that when Tobi said "borrowed power," he wasn't talking about how the eye is naturally his (AKA he's Obito) and Kakashi is just borrowing his strength. I believe that when he said "borrowed power," he was referring to the fact he's an Uchiha and Kakashi is just borrowing the clan's strength. Of course, Tobi doesn't know about how Obito entrusting the eye to Kakashi has given him strength.


----------



## Acadi (Aug 22, 2012)

Isn't it Izuna?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

cokshura said:


> I wish you where right, believe me, but the "No....that's not possible" doesn't necesarily mean literally not possible but that it is very hard to accept the truth.



Lol, I know, I was being sarcastic, if you want my believe posts go to this link



And scroll down to my 3 part post with spoiler tags of my detailed theories and explanations yet there were others who were incissant on saying "Impossible, there are Plot holes!" with 100% certainty


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Lysandra said:


> It can't just be Obito and that's it. There's still tons of plot holes left open by that explanation. Like *how the hell can a 13 y-o* unleash a tailed beast on an entire village and survive an encounter with Minato in his prime. Even if Tobi is Obito, there's more to the story than that.



15 year old.

Link removed

A 15 year old also did this, gaining that power in the span of a day.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

Sarry said:


> While I reading the chapter, I kept thinking the hints pointing towards Obito are too obvious. Maybe a bit too much for kishi's usual style of giving hints.
> 
> I am starting to believe Kishi is leading us towards Obito on purpose as a decoy. Tobi will be something or someone different all together.



i hope youre right.... but its not looking good right now


----------



## Humite Juubi (Aug 22, 2012)

Nic said:


> kishi's style is to be obvious, this is a manga for children.



So you are basically saying bad writing is okay because it is for children.
Im no longer surprised that the animation age ghetto keeps existing.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> i hope youre right.... but its not looking good right now



I think its looking very good, next week should be fun seeing his face hopefully. Just glad to see the impossible is very possible, its crazy. Rasengan to the face was epic


----------



## AnimeGreatNinja (Aug 22, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Because, in this chapter, Tobi mocks Kakashi for using borrowed power and boasts he will show him the true strength of Kamui...yet Kakashi beats him in a battle of speed in using it. It would be kind of silly for Kakashi to beat Obito at his own game.



What's kind of silly is how fast the plot is being rushed... but there we go Kishi....



shintebukuro said:


> My guess is that when Tobi said "borrowed power," he wasn't talking about how the eye is naturally his (AKA he's Obito) and Kakashi is just borrowing his strength. I believe that when he said "borrowed power," he was referring to the fact he's an Uchiha and Kakashi is just borrowing the clan's strength. Of course, Tobi doesn't know about how Obito entrusting the eye to Kakashi has given him strength.



If I didn't think Tobi was Obito, this would sound good to me.


----------



## NarutoSamaMan (Aug 22, 2012)

Why are people acting like Pains identity was on par with finding out who Tobi is?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 22, 2012)

Kish is about to break out that shovel and fill those plot holes with a lot of Obito lol.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

I especially love how at the end when Tobi was about to be hit, he curses KAKASHI of all people again, "DAMN KAKASHI"


----------



## InfusionZ (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito or Fugaku


----------



## auem (Aug 22, 2012)

either Izuna using obito's eye....or both Izuna and obito using repaired body of obito...


----------



## Sygurgh (Aug 22, 2012)

*Official Tobi Tally Thread [Choose your side].*

The reveal is near.
The principe is simple.
1] Copy/Paste and add your name.
2] Point and laugh next week.

======TOBI IS OBITO======
Sygurgh
=====TOBI ISN'T OBITO=====
[Remove]
=======================


----------



## son_michael (Aug 22, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> I still don't think it's Obito. And I'm actually less confident that he has Obito's face now than before...
> 
> Because, in this chapter, Tobi mocks Kakashi for using borrowed power and boasts he will show him the true strength of Kamui...yet Kakashi beats him in a battle of speed in using it. It would be kind of silly for Kakashi to beat Obito at his own game.
> 
> My guess is that when Tobi said "borrowed power," he wasn't talking about how the eye is naturally his (AKA he's Obito) and Kakashi is just borrowing his strength. I believe that when he said "borrowed power," he was referring to the fact he's an Uchiha and Kakashi is just borrowing the clan's strength. Of course, Tobi doesn't know about how Obito entrusting the eye to Kakashi has given him strength.




this page pretty much confirms that he is obito


Link removed



yes it can be kakashi. yes it can be


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I think its looking very good, next week should be fun seeing his face hopefully. Just glad to see the impossible is very possible, its crazy. Rasengan to the face was epic



the part where he Kamui'd Naruto's KB into the other dimension?

yes that was epic


----------



## Humite Juubi (Aug 22, 2012)

I predict Tobi lying till death. otherwise its plot induced OOC.


----------



## Don-kun (Aug 22, 2012)

From the moment I saw Kakashi's power vs Deidara and the moment Tobi show his Sharingan to Kakashi and the Konoha Rookies and disappearing the same way Kakashi jutsu works, I start asking if he maybe Tobi is Obito, my only doubt was when he call himself Madara, but later seeing Madara's power, then Tobi calling himself No One when Naruto told him Madara was fighting the Kages I changed back to Obito.

I didn't want to accept it was Obito since I like his speech, but I will not keep pretending anymore, I don't remember Kishi beeing too obvious with something and it ends up being someone else. Obito will be perfect for Kakashi to finally move on since he also need his resolution, it seems that no one cares about Kakashi's closure because they want it to be someone else or refuse to accept they were wrong.


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito in any shape or form.


----------



## gabzilla (Aug 22, 2012)

cokshura said:


> How could he play that though? The mask is already broken and it's already chap 598 so that only leaves one chap for him to go to Sasuke. Then going back one chap after back to Tobi's face would be pointless and anticlimatic.



MEANWHILE IN THE HALL OF JUSTICE SASUKE AND OROCHIMARU HAVE A PICNIC.

Then the last page is Kakashi hyperventilating.


----------



## AnimeGreatNinja (Aug 22, 2012)

I think it's Obito.

The "shocking plot twist", if any, would be revealing how he got to where he is today, hence Tobi's backstory starting 600+.


----------



## Faustus (Aug 22, 2012)

This is the strange line from someone who is using Hashirama's powers for his body and the eyes of another guys  All Tobi's powers are borrowed, but he can use them like his own due to improved body


----------



## Easley (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito seems certain but giving it away before the mask comes off is criminal. Yes, I know Kishi is obvious sometimes but this is _the_ reveal people have waited years for. If Tobi is exactly who we think he is, the cliffhanger is pointless, as is Naruto screaming "who are you?" at the end. umm, didn't you just tell us, Kishimoto? Tobi being Obito is fine - spoiling it is not.

I hope there's some kind of twist, anything but the obvious.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Kishi has been careful not to say the name/word "Obito" at all during this fight for a reason.


----------



## 8 (Aug 22, 2012)

my bet is on teuchi the ramen guy.


----------



## jeffmusta (Aug 22, 2012)

It looks like it probably is Obito at this point - I thought there were too many plot holes for it to be, but Kishi can do whatever he wants to make it work, I'm sure.

Then again, maybe he will throw us a last second twist - though to me it seems unlikely.


----------



## Anonymouse (Aug 22, 2012)

Grendel said:


> He called kakashi's power borrowed...which seems strange if he's borrowing it himself



That's only the case if you ignore the second half of the damned statement. Obitards are thick and only see what they want to see.

The full statement is here:



Tobi is worried about the Kamui. He makes a separate statement saying that he specifically needs to watch it's application.

What Tobi isn't worried about is someone who can't use Kamui repeatedly.

This could easily be implied as a taunt from Tobi to Kakashi. Tobi knows he can continue to use his Kamui because of Hashi's cells. Obito doesn't suddenly get to use his MS over and over with no consequence simply because it's his eyeball, right? You still need EMS or Hashi cells.

When interpreted that way (reading the entire statement), this still allows both of them to have implanted the eye and Tobi's Kamui powers to be superior.

Otherwise, why would Tobi bother to say anything about Kakashi only being able to use his eye with limitations?


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Aug 22, 2012)

lol @ obito being too obvious


just like how Minato being Naruto's father was "too obvious".


----------



## ovanz (Aug 22, 2012)

Glad i never care much about his identity, I will still call him Tobi. but i know NF will go crazy and call it by his discovered identity in all next "Tobi's" threads. I still call the fox Kyuubi, not that name kishi gave him after 10 years, it will be the same with Tobi.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

*Tobi = Kagami = Obito's father is the only way out of this mess*

--------------------------------------------------------

Kishi is making Tobi = Obito too damn obvious 

my Kagami theory is the only way out of this mess

if Tobi = Kagami = Obito's father, it would make sense that their S/T powers are the same... it would make sense that their MS designs are the same

pray.... just pray


----------



## Anonymouse (Aug 22, 2012)

See my post that shut down the other discussion exactly like this.


----------



## jeffmusta (Aug 22, 2012)

not sure they would share the same dimension though - even if it was his father.


----------



## ovanz (Aug 22, 2012)

This is a big strech, maybe its obito's brother/cousin/aunt/uncle ben!!


----------



## Fuyuu Hidarite (Aug 22, 2012)

Zetsu-enhanced Obito. Sort of gooish body containing Obito?s head and the basic physical elements to let his own chakra flow, ala Sasori. 
I still believe that Zetsu is a long-life being who worked for Madara. Then all the Nagato plan went wrong and he tried to find another Uchiha with the potential of the real Madara to accomplish the MoonEye plan and into that reality trick someone and make him revive the real Madara.

Sounds like crazy, but there have been lots of crazy revelations and plot twists in Naruto since day one. And concerning important characters, their stories have all been very predictable (all around Naruto): 
-Minato being family with Naruto
-Naruto being from a very important former clan
-Nagato being family with Naruto even when we only knew Yahiko Pain

So for me Tobi has always been Obito, and I hope I?m correct. Kagami is no one at this point, and Izuna or Obito are the only ones who can match the circumstances. And I?m sorry to repeat this again, but everything in Obito matches with pinpoint precission what we are learning about Tobi:

-Hairstyle, has always been the same for every character in the second half of their lives, even in flashbacks. Only when growing they change it, usually as a extension of the first look we have on them.

-Tricky and goofy behaviour. Obito was a -innofensive- liar even when everything was obvious ("something is in my eyes, that?s why I cry" or "I helped an old lady, that?s why I?m late"). Tobi is the same, a liar who grew with greater lies. Now he?s a master manipulator, but I think that?s something only in Narutoverse is believed; no one can take his words as truth when you dig a little about it.

-Uses the orange color. His glasses, his swirling mask, the previous fire mask... The rest of his clothes are usually black or purple.

-His sharingan. When he first appeared, Tobi didn?t show it till he met Kakashi and the dog team looking for Sasuke (if I?m correct). By that time no theory including sharingan for him was admitted, let alone something related to him being Obito. Then his eye appeared, never showing his MS version if obtained. His jutsu was similar to Kakashi?s but on a deffensive way, and then the storm broke. Now we have the exact same MS for both the son of the White Fang and the misterious Tobi, and still there?s a lot of people who can?t admit not the reality (which can be another), but the strong possibility that lies in all these revelations.

The only thing that has to be explained is how could he evolve and improve so much that he could confront Minato with a certain ease. Of course, Kyuubi was on his side, but even that help needed a lot of improvement. I say, and said it a long time ago, that the "error" Kishimoto had drawing Obito with a two tomoe sharingan when he awakened it is not an error, but an attempt to hide the fact that Obito awoke his doujutsu at the maximum level (three tomoes, as shown in Kakashi Gaiden), thus leading us to believe that Obito was going to be a very powerful character if that accident during their mission didn?t "kill" him.


So, again, and Kishimoto has the last word, Obito fits incredibly well into this climax and considering this is Kakashi?s year, at last, my bet is Uchiha Obito in body and in mind (well, Zetsu white goo body, but his own head, chakra...).

AND, Gai is thinking about the same thing Kakashi fears. Tobi telling Kakashi to shut up and mentioning Gai?s ease to forget faces...

AAAAAAAAAAND, one last appreciation. In the last chapter Tobi seems to be very proud of Kamui. He even tells Kakashi he?s not afraid of a "borrowed power" and then insist on the "real power of Kamui". White and into a bottle, he?s the legit owner of that right eye and he?s Obito.


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## conradoserpa (Aug 22, 2012)

Well, there's a chance for everything in this manga. I just wish Kishi can make_ Obito  goes berserk_ thing understandable. Like, Zetsu work and stuff. Otherwise I prefer Tobi to be someone else...


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## son_michael (Aug 22, 2012)

tsk tsk tsk  how sad jacamo....how sad


----------



## Lelouch71 (Aug 22, 2012)

Edo Madara said:


> If Tobito is true then I will lose my whole respect to kishi
> it will need the biggest asspulls in this manga for that to make sense


You should had lost respect for him a long time ago then. This is the same man that borrows fanfic ideas. Case and point Itachi and Madara freeing themselves.


----------



## bearzerger (Aug 22, 2012)

~Gesy~ said:


> lol @ obito being too obvious
> 
> 
> just like how Minato being Naruto's father was "too obvious".



Minato being Naruto's father was never even a secret. It was pretty likely in chapter 1 and as good as confirmed when Itachi first came to Konoha.


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## Recal (Aug 22, 2012)

Ain't no bandwagon-hopper.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.  No biggie.  It's a manga.


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## Deleted member 175252 (Aug 22, 2012)

*if its not obito...*

...then who is tobi?


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## Raidoton (Aug 22, 2012)

Someone with Obito's eye


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## Luftwaffles (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito 
Welcome!


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## Humite Juubi (Aug 22, 2012)




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## Deleted member 175252 (Aug 22, 2012)

Raidoton said:


> Someone with Obito's eye



but who? it has to be someone we know! OMG ITS RIN!


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## Dark Uchiha (Aug 22, 2012)

i dont believe he is obito, about a hundred chapters ago i was calling this mofo uchiha madara....

who at the same time "claimed" nagato eyes were his.

so this guy saying obito eyes are his or saying kakashi has borrowed eyes.

this guy is the definition of the pot calling the kettle black. Ill wait till the next chapter when kakashi looks at him and says.. "who are you"


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## conradoserpa (Aug 22, 2012)

Yeah, it is... But we've been waiting for this for so long, hope it ends in the next chapters, seriously.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

your mom.






sorry couldn't resist


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## ~Gesy~ (Aug 22, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> Minato being Naruto's father was never even a secret. It was pretty likely in chapter 1 and as good as confirmed when Itachi first came to Konoha.



But people didn't want to believe it and were outraged when it was revealed.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

I have a few people in mind that I'm going to bash, but I'm not going to bash you. As long as you admit that it seems so. But the question I have, as long as you saw that Obito was POSSIBLE, then you are fine, because Izuna was a top candidate, granted his name was never said in the manga, but still he was very possible.


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## Lelouch71 (Aug 22, 2012)

TC you give Kishi way too much credit for a simple manga for children. It's might be too obvious for us but children might not be as quick to figured it out. Nagato was too obvious to be Pain too and many people made complex theories on who he is when the answer was simple. The same is true for Tobi. At this point it's going to be Obito.


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## Mandarke (Aug 22, 2012)

Fugaku Uchiha


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## -JT- (Aug 22, 2012)

Tobi's identity was revealed this chapter.

These Giant Shuriken...

Someone has used them before.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Mizuki was the final villain all along


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Aug 22, 2012)

*A GREAT TWIST WOULD BE...*

If Tobi is just a random guy who fell on Obito's body by accident and decided he wanted world domination !!!!!!!!!


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## Closet Pervert (Aug 22, 2012)

Oh ye of little faith...


Sutol said:


> The Izuna supporters never had any ground to base their theories on.
> 
> It was all mindless fluff without substance.


As opposed to TObito supporters?

Not that i was an Tobi = Izuna supporter but it made a helluva lot more sense than TObito.


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## ScienceFiction (Aug 22, 2012)

*Obito? No. Why?*

Alright, if my memory serves me correctly Tobi once admitted to giving Nagato the Rinnegan...Nagato was trained by Jiraiya before he even trained the 4th, or if he had trained them, the 4th definitely hadn't trained team Kakashi...They probably weren't even born. 

Second. The Nine-Tail incident, Obito would've been what? A few years older than he was when he had died in that mission? 

I don't feel like thinking of other inconsistencies, but I'm sure there are...If Tobi=Obito Kishi is a lazy asshole, but I will probably still continue reading it. I guess I like abusive relationships...


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## jgalt7 (Aug 22, 2012)

of course it is.  leave trails of clues to the identity and then pull the wool over your head.  i think kishi likes to think this is excellent writing.  it could be, but if you do it too many times, it just becomes silly....but apparently, a lot of people still fall for it....so as long as it sells, why not...


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## Nic (Aug 22, 2012)

because Madara is the one that supposedly give the eye to Nagato, the same guy that Obito was impersonating in front of Konan.


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## boohead (Aug 22, 2012)

He lies alot


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## ShenLong Kazama (Aug 22, 2012)

We'll see, but if Tobi is not Obito i will laugh my ass off.


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## Awesome (Aug 22, 2012)

Or you know, Kishi can explain how Obito fits into this just like he would have to if Kagami was. Kishi is the damn author, any timeline issues can be solved.

Denial is strong now in this section. Just because "it's too damn obvious" doesn't mean it's not Obito. It means the opposite.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

its not just the eye, its all the accusations and lines he has with kakashi specificially that hints at the connection


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## Shiny (Aug 22, 2012)

Since when kishi Give a shit to timelines? tobi=obito


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## Danzio (Aug 22, 2012)

The people who were so invested  in fighting Obito theoriests must feel dumb. Anything can can happen in fiction and the author can and will make sense of everything before it's all said or done ( his universe, after all).Whether you buy it or not is a different story, but no option should be deemed impossible as long as there's a hypothetical chance it might happen.


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## bearzerger (Aug 22, 2012)

~Gesy~ said:


> But people didn't want to believe it and were outraged when it was revealed.



well, true. Which still doesn't make Tobi Obito, though.


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## Zelavour (Aug 22, 2012)

Its not Kagami, Kagami only came in like 2 panels, he got never spoken about nor did he speak himself.
And not just that, we only know who Kagami is thanks to the forum, without the forum people wouldnt even know who Kagami is and i seriously doubt you have to read Naruto forums inorder to find out about a character.


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## Lelouch71 (Aug 22, 2012)

Tobi lied about being Madara. Tobi lied about fighting Hashirama. Tobi lied about his involvement in the Kyuubi attack to Sasuke. The fact of the matter is Tobi lies. Now Madara (the real one) probably gave Nagato the rinnegan. I highly doubt he gave his actual eyes literally to Nagato. Madara probably gave him some Uchiha DNA. He probably was the one with long hair and a mask. Most likely Madara died at some point and gave the task to Tobi (Obito) to continue his project until Nagato can resurrect him. 

Either way Kishi doesn't give a shit. You should know that by now TC.


----------



## jeffmusta (Aug 22, 2012)

If it was Izuna - wouldn't he have an EMS? Though I guess it could be argued that not all MS transfers result in an EMS.


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## jgalt7 (Aug 22, 2012)

leaving trails and making you believe it's obito, lol........even parading the MS making you confirm it's obito.......lol........

remember when itachi was so evil and everyone believed it for years.  remember when tobi said he was madara and everyone believed it for the longest time.

tobi has obito's eye ...confirmed.  apparently spamming MS jutsus for almost two decades, lol........if tobi is obito, it's gonna take several chapters of explaining to fill a lot of plot holes......if not, then i think kishi just want to end the manga in typical fashion, which is for the sake of ending it.


----------



## Burke (Aug 22, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSZIej-ZraE[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Ghost (Aug 22, 2012)

i smash my testicles with a hammer if tobi is izuna.


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## Lelouch71 (Aug 22, 2012)

son_michael said:


> tsk tsk tsk  how sad jacamo....how sad


Indeed

It doesn't even bother me who Tobi turn out to be. So I don't even see why some people even care.


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## ScienceFiction (Aug 22, 2012)

Okay. So Obito was like 15 when he fought the 4th and summoned Kyuubi?


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## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

NEVER GIVE UP UNTIL THE END


----------



## Kotoamatsukami (Aug 22, 2012)

*Tobi = Fugaku*

100% proven. Now or never


----------



## ShenLong Kazama (Aug 22, 2012)

I'll laugh my ass off if it's Obito.


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## Anonymouse (Aug 22, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Or you know, Kishi can explain how Obito fits into this just like he would have to if Kagami was.



Wrong.

1)We've never seen Kagami die.
2)Kagami is also old enough to fit with the timeline.

These are the two biggest problems (on a long list) with Obito theories. Kishi wouldn't have to jump those hurdles if it was someone older than Obito who didn't die.

Remember:
Prior to the Kage Summit Arc, nobody really knew anything about Danzo. He was only mentioned a couple of times. He quickly became a plot-relevant, major character that people only really learned about just before he died.
This is why Tobi can still be anyone that Kishi has mentioned, or even a character that hasn't been mentioned yet.


----------



## ovanz (Aug 22, 2012)

Yes i agree. He help destroying the coup he started, that's so evil.


----------



## jgalt7 (Aug 22, 2012)

lol....it's like putting reeses pieces to bait ET.....

Still begs the question.....if someone who has MS, like izuna, gives up his eye, but gets his eye replaced with another sharingan not of blood, does he technically have a variation of EMS?

Tobi's MS jutsu is not quite the same as kamui, but a variation since it does share the same dimension........


----------



## conradoserpa (Aug 22, 2012)

The Obito giving Nagato eyes doesn't fit. Only if there something like Obito going back in time or so lol

But, Minato x Tobi fight is all good, seriously. Obito was his student, he knew Minato, plus he lost this fight... in a way... In the same chapter, we can see how tall Kakashi was, he was already a big boy and we all know Obito was even taller than Kakashi when he died.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> NEVER GIVE UP UNTIL THE END



dude you're first on the list. You say the possible and the identity that is getting ALL the hints is impossible 100%.............


----------



## Lelouch71 (Aug 22, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> I'm sorry I'm 24ed, because you deserve a rep more than most of the people I've repped in the last 24 hours.
> 
> Tobito happening would be like Kishi giving up entirely on his manga. I can't see any self-respecting author do it, and I'll be horribly embarrassed if I wasted years of my life reading something that the author himself doesn't care about.


So essentially it's all about your ego instead of accepting what you already coming to accept as the truth? Don't get me wrong I thought the same way with Itachi and Madara freeing themselves. I figured Kishi wouldn't stoop to fanfic level just to make their fanboys happy. Deep down I knew that Madara saving himself was a good possibility even though it wouldn't make any logical sense. I was proven wrong. Either way I suggest you and everyone else to abandon your expectations. Kishi isn't exactly an award winning author. Knowing Kishi style Tobi being Obito is going to happen.


----------



## Nic (Aug 22, 2012)

ScienceFiction said:


> Okay. So Obito was like 15 when he fought the 4th and summoned Kyuubi?



not necessarily. Kakashi graduated at 5, obito at 9, if they were put on the team together at the same time, then obito was 4 years older.


----------



## Khazzar (Aug 22, 2012)

Shirosaki said:


> i smash my testicles with a hammer if tobi is izuna.



That sounds so painful :amazed.

I'd rather like to see Tobi = Izuna then Obito.


----------



## jeffmusta (Aug 22, 2012)

There are some major plot holes Kishi is going to have to fill if it's Obito (which seems to be the most likely right now) - but it's his manga so I guess he can do what he wants


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

jgalt7 said:


> lol....it's like putting reeses pieces to bait ET.....
> 
> Still begs the question.....if someone who has MS, like izuna, gives up his eye, but gets his eye replaced with another sharingan not of blood, does he technically have a variation of EMS?
> 
> Tobi's MS jutsu is not quite the same as kamui, but a variation since it does share the same dimension........



SaiSt had a good post on this.
What was actually said was closer blood relations, siblings, INCREASES the chances of compatibility.
But it also went on to say that they would kill each other for EMS with trials and errors on success rates or something. You should search his posts in the official tobi identity thread in library, its better with manga pages


----------



## jgalt7 (Aug 22, 2012)

it's obito's brother, shisui.... 

the uchiha massacre is a lie.  it's actually a small scale moon eye's plan genjutsu on the village that shisui performed to make everyone believe itachi killed off the clan and they all went into hiding.....sasuke is headed to the hiding place of the uchihas now, lol.  the uchiha massacre is just one big genjutsu, which is why shisui's eye was on koto was on cooldown.

do it kishi.....DO IT!  i want to see this shit storm happen....lol


----------



## jeffmusta (Aug 22, 2012)

Nic said:


> not necessarily. Kakashi graduated at 5, obito at 9, if they were put on the team together at the same time, then obito was 4 years older.



The only problem I guess is that they looked the same size-ish in that flashback - did Obitio grow that much faster than Kakashi in just a few years?  Look at that page of when the Kyuubi attacks and compare how Kakahsi looks and the Tobi who fights the fourth looks.  It's a pretty dramatic difference.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Aug 22, 2012)

*It has to be Obito or Rin.Anyone else won't get much reaction of the characters facing Tobi and wouldn't make sense why he hid from them.*


----------



## bearzerger (Aug 22, 2012)

jeffmusta said:


> The only problem I guess is that they looked the same size-ish in that flashback - did Obitio grow that much faster than Kakashi in just a few years?  Look at that page of when the Kyuubi attacks and compare how Kakahsi looks and the Tobi who fights the fourth looks.  It's a pretty dramatic difference.



We had that debate last week. Obito and Rin were as old as Kakashi. The evidence is in the databooks. Obito and Rin were in the same graduate class, according to their ninja registration number, as Kurenai and Asuma and graduated at the same age, 9 years.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

jeffmusta said:


> not sure they would share the same dimension though - even if it was his father.



if Obito and Kagami are related and both use the same MS jutsu... i dont see how its a stretch for them to share the same dimension

or maybe all S/T Jikukan jutsu share a dimension?



Awesome said:


> Denial is strong now in this section. Just because "it's too damn obvious" doesn't mean it's not Obito. It means the opposite.



really? a lot of people seem to think otherwise



Anonymouse said:


> Wrong.
> 
> 1)We've never seen Kagami die.
> 2)Kagami is also old enough to fit with the timeline.
> ...



exactly... Kishi wouldnt have to go through mountains of timeline explanations if he made Tobi = Kagami = Obito's father

Tobi's motives and grievances would then be self explanatory

Danzo and Nagato are prime examples of how new characters can become very relevant in a very short space of time



Mistshadow said:


> dude you're first on the list. You say the possible and the identity that is getting ALL the hints is impossible 100%.............



lol go for it... if Tobi = Obito i will take your beating


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Kishi is making Tobi = Obito too damn obvious
> 
> ...


'
ONLY way out guys, It's IMPOSSIBLE guys,
Seems like someone is grasping at straws. Just admit its 'POSSIBLE' that Tobi is Obito and I will lessen my posts comments and insults that are coming next week. That's all I've been asking, yet you get angry and wonder why, when I have been getting proven right time and time again with my speculative assumptions and analyses.

Because you know, Sasuke and Itachi brothers have the same MS Design, so Kagami and Obito would do as father son......
Man, Fugaku would have had one crazy MS design one looking like sasukes and one looking like itachis.



son_michael said:


> tsk tsk tsk  how sad jacamo....*how sad*



I think Itachi had a good quote for this about living bound by what they see as true blalbhalblah.

someone want to quote it for me? =p


----------



## Sαge (Aug 22, 2012)

Kishi made it too obvious. 











All signs point to Mikoto.


----------



## bearzerger (Aug 22, 2012)

Deshi Basara said:


> *It has to be Obito or Rin.Anyone else won't get much reaction of the characters facing Tobi and wouldn't make sense why he hid from them.*



In that case the only one he would be getting a reaction from is Kakashi. Neither B nor Naruto have ever heard of Obito or Rin and Gai apparently wasn't close to either of them. And really Kakashi seems pretty much exhausted he won't contribute much anymore. So even his reaction should Tobi say "Hey Kakashi, did you miss your old friend Obito?" next week won't have any significant impact on this fight. 

Furthermore, Kakashi immediately got over his funk of potentially facing Obito. No lengthy flashback, no long reaction. Half a chapter that's all Kishi spent on Kakashi reacting to Obito. So that argument doesn't hold any water with me.


----------



## BlazingInferno (Aug 22, 2012)

Though it is looking like he is Obito, I'm still hoping he's not. If he is, then he'll convert with the talk no jutsu.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> In that case the only one he would be getting a reaction from is Kakashi. Neither B nor Naruto have ever heard of Obito or Rin and* Gai apparently wasn't close to either of them*. And really Kakashi seems pretty much exhausted he won't contribute much anymore. So even his reaction should Tobi say "Hey Kakashi, did you miss your old friend Obito?" next week won't have any significant impact on this fight.
> 
> Furthermore, Kakashi immediately got over his funk of potentially facing Obito. No lengthy flashback, no long reaction. Half a chapter that's all Kishi spent on Kakashi reacting to Obito. So that argument doesn't hold any water with me.



Reread the chapter again. Gai clearly says the same things are going through his head and he knows what Kakashi is thinking. But now isn't the time for that.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Aug 22, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> In that case the only one he would be getting a reaction from is Kakashi. Neither B nor Naruto have ever heard of Obito or Rin and Gai apparently wasn't close to either of them. And really Kakashi seems pretty much exhausted he won't contribute much anymore. So even his reaction should Tobi say "Hey Kakashi, did you miss your old friend Obito?" next week won't have any significant impact on this fight.
> 
> Furthermore, Kakashi immediately got over his funk of potentially facing Obito. No lengthy flashback, no long reaction. Half a chapter that's all Kishi spent on Kakashi reacting to Obito. So that argument doesn't hold any water with me.



*"I can guess what you are thinking about now!Its the same for me... But leave it for awhile.."

So yeah, Gai did know Obito.Also indicated by the earlier comments of Tobi about how it was pointless for Gai to see his face when he doesn't remember faces.


Kakashi's shock and flashback was inturepted by Gai.And what do you expect?He is not even 100% sure that Tobi is Obito.Once its confirmed however..


Also, Obito as a child was very similar to Naruto.Gives plenty to Naruto to work with.Now, who the FUCK cares about Izuna, Kagami or any of the other options?Why would they be revealed in front of this convo?*


----------



## Jay. (Aug 22, 2012)

I'm the original ounder of the Kagami Theory.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> '
> ONLY way out guys, It's IMPOSSIBLE guys,
> Seems like someone is grasping at straws. Just admit its 'POSSIBLE' that Tobi is Obito and I will lessen my posts comments and insults that are coming next week. That's all I've been asking, yet you get angry and wonder why, when I have been getting proven right time and time again with my speculative assumptions and analyses.



oh you would like that wouldnt you 

i still think Tobi = Obito is ridiculous considering the plotholes... if you are going to bash me anyway i want your "come at me bro" A game



Mistshadow said:


> Because you know, Sasuke and Itachi brothers have the same MS Design, so Kagami and Obito would do as father son......
> Man, Fugaku would have had one crazy MS design one looking like sasukes and one looking like itachis.



not all Uchiha have to follow the convential rules

as Tobi said, its a rarity for Uchiha to awaken Susano




Jay. said:


> I'm the original founder of the Kagami Theory.


----------



## Kronin (Aug 22, 2012)

Until now I don't see anything that make the Tobi Obito theory reality (considering that Tobi has a collection of sharingan under glass and manipulate the minds of his allied and foes from day 1) so I still think that actually he is Izuna Uchiha.

If I am wrong I will accept the defeat with honour, but until now I am really sure to be right


----------



## Nic (Aug 22, 2012)

jeffmusta said:


> The only problem I guess is that they looked the same size-ish in that flashback - did Obitio grow that much faster than Kakashi in just a few years?  Look at that page of when the Kyuubi attacks and compare how Kakahsi looks and the Tobi who fights the fourth looks.  It's a pretty dramatic difference.



yeah, although Obito was already taller than Kakashi in the Gaiden.


----------



## bach (Aug 22, 2012)

i still think that tobi is izuna.
my second bet goes on a new character: obito's older brother.


----------



## bearzerger (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Reread the chapter again. Gai clearly says the same things are going through his head and he knows what Kakashi is thinking. But now isn't the time for that.





Deshi Basara said:


> "I can guess what you are thinking about now!Its the same for me... But leave it for awhile.."
> 
> So yeah, Gai did know Obito.Also indicated by the earlier comments of Tobi about how it was pointless for Gai to see his face when he doesn't remember faces.



I didn't say Gai didn't know Obito. I said he wasn't close to Obito. All this chapter told us in that regard is that Gai is aware of what Kakashi is thinking and that he understands why the possibility of facing an old comrade turned traitor disturbs him so much. That's quite a bit from him being affected in a similar manner.




> Kakashi's shock and flashback was inturepted by Gai.And what do you expect?He is not even 100% sure that Tobi is Obito.Once its confirmed however..



Once it is confirmed it won't have any significant impact on the fight. Kakashi is out of steam. He's lying there with blood running out of his eye. Kakashi lying there unable to do anything going "OMG it can't be! Obito!" hardly is a big impact.



> Also, Obito as a child was very simmiliar to Naruto.Gives plenty to Naruto to work with.Now, who the FUCK cares about Izuna, Kagami or any of the other options?Why would they be revealed in front of this convo?



Obito may have been similar to Naruto, but Naruto doesn't know shit about Obito, so he for one won't see any reason to emphasize any more with Obito's sob story than with Izuna's or Kagami's. And there's no doubt that whoever Tobi is he will have a sobstory. 
Kagami can come up with a sobstory about Hiruzen's and Danzou's age, Izuna a sobstory about Madara and Hashirama.
Obito in fact has probably the worst sobstory of them all. There is no rational explanation for him to have undergone such a change in personality on his own. Someone must have tinkered with his brain. 
And Obito wouldn't even be aware of that or he wouldn't have acted as he did. That makes him a tool. A sad pathetic tool that had gotten brainwashed by someone twenty years ago and never even realized it.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

if Tobi = Kagami... we could have some epic flashbacks you know 

we could have:

Hashirama
Madara
Tobirama
Danzo
PRIME Hiruzen


----------



## Rama (Aug 22, 2012)

Like Ive said before, I believe Tobi's Identity is related to Black Zetsu.  Im looking at this in the perspective that Kishi can actually make a reveal that can shock and be totally unexpected to not only the casual readers but the fans; If Kishi really didn't plan it this way, then I gotta say it would be obviously Obito.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

of course gai wasn't as close to obito as kakashi was. no one was, he gave his eye and 'died' for kakashi. but before that mission kakashi wasn't even close to obito really. the very fact that gai goes 'its the same for me' goes to tell us that he did have a relationship with him. just not a major one. he is the same age as kakashi


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 22, 2012)

REPENT, ALL OF YOU NONBELIEVERS!

THE REVELATION IS UPON US!

ALL SHALL CRUMBLE BEFORE THE SECOND COMING OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR OBITO!


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> REPENT, ALL OF YOU NONBELIEVERS!
> 
> THE REVELATION IS UPON US!
> 
> ALL SHALL CRUMBLE BEFORE THE SECOND COMING OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR OBITO!



this reminds me of when we were both right about 6th coffin = Madara


----------



## Deshi Basara (Aug 22, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> I didn't say Gai didn't know Obito. I said he wasn't close to Obito. All this chapter told us in that regard is that Gai is aware of what Kakashi is thinking and that he understands why the possibility of facing an old comrade turned traitor disturbs him so much. That's quite a bit from him being affected in a similar manner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*The only one who Gai hasn't been close to and familiar with are Izuna, Kagami etc At least he knows Obito.

Sorry, but Kakashi will clearly play a HUGE role.There was no point in him being instrumental in damaging Tobi and Tobi having Obito's eye, otherwise.

If its Obito, or say Rin, Gai, Kakashi and Obito/Rin will inform Naruto of who they were.

Sorry but no, just NO.After all the shit that happened, it won't be Izuna, Kagami or anyone else that Gai and Kakashi never knew or even met.Kishi was just trolling with all the hints that Kakashi and Gai knew whoever is behind Tobi's mask?Sure.

And what was the need to hide when Madra was out of the bag, if he's Izuna or Kagami?People the shinobi world don't give a darn about???Much less Naruto, Kakashi, Gai, Bee?



This will make a whole of a lot less sense than the explanation for Obito/Rin's turn.
*


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> oh you would like that wouldnt you
> 
> i still think Tobi = Obito is ridiculous considering the plotholes... if you are going to bash me anyway i want your "come at me bro" A game



Trust me your 'plot holes' have never prevented anything. 
And I would right now, but I would probably get a ban, or you would cry and whine again like you have so many times already 





> not all Uchiha have to follow the convential rules
> 
> as Tobi said, its a rarity for Uchiha to awaken Susano



Then what is the exception and what is the norm. Itachi and Sasuke are brothers, have different MS, yet have Susanoo. Madara and Izuna are brothers, have different MS, yet Madara has susanoo, don't know about Izuna. Shisui had 2 Koto's, no siblings that we know about with MS, unknown on susanoo. Obito's eyes have same MS design, 1 ranged kamui, 1 Close-Quarters Kamui would be the best way to describe it, no susanoo, no siblings. 
You're assuming things based on nothing now, (because he's an exception as it would seem to you), after getting angry with other people for assuming things can happen to explain away those plot holes. They 'arent satisfying enough' so you dismiss it as impossible.


Here guys, and fans alike: Tell me who seems more likely between Kagami, Obito, and Everyone Else-
Something I typed in an older thread



> Okay So I decided to have a little fun and show everyone each line the narrowed down identities lines have had in this manga.
> Now tell me who seems most likely
> 
> Kagami: "Impossible, in a situation like this all we can do is send someone as bait to get their attention"
> ...


----------



## Fureikusu Kira (Aug 22, 2012)

LOL>.>

Another thread that's about to get filled up by this?










Tobi is Obito.
It's almost 90% confirmed.
It is confirmed it's either Obito or Kagami.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> this reminds me of when we were both right about 6th coffin = Madara



Good times.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Fureikusu Kira said:


> LOL>.>
> 
> Another thread that's about to get filled up by this?
> 
> ...



lol looks like it.

As for Kagami, the problem is he is the same likelyness now as he was a hundred chapters ago. Not a mention, not a line, not a panel, his name was never even in the manga, it was part of a cover.

The only thing that keeps this theory alive apparently now to Jacamo is "I believe he was Obito's father" based on what? I believe Setsuna was Obito's father then. I believe Obito was Fugaku's younger brother then. I believe Obito was Madara's grandson then (omg watch this turn out to be true). List goes on.


----------



## Amatérasu’s Son (Aug 22, 2012)

Team Izuna all the way.

Obito isn't necessary, anyone could've come along and plucked out his eye.

I choose the Uchiha with the age and first hand knowledge.

Or he's some kind of clone as my old thread says.


----------



## Setsuna00 (Aug 22, 2012)

It's Obito. Purely based on what Tobi said to Kakashi in this current chapter. 



Essentially saying his power isn't borrowed, meaning if it were anyone other than Obito, it would have also been borrowed. Can't make that statement unless you were the original owner. BAM. Manga over. There will mass amounts of bleeding vaginas over this.




Mistshadow said:


> lol looks like it.
> 
> As for Kagami, the problem is he is the same likelyness now as he was a hundred chapters ago. Not a mention, not a line, not a panel, his name was never even in the manga, it was part of a cover.
> 
> The only thing that keeps this theory alive apparently now to Jacamo is "I believe he was Obito's father" based on what? *I believe Setsuna was Obito's father then*. I believe Obito was Fugaku's younger brother then. I believe Obito was Madara's grandson then (omg watch this turn out to be true). List goes on.


Me? Well if that's the case. There is no mistaking that Tobi is my son Obito. I can feel it.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Amat?rasu?s Son said:


> Team Izuna all the way.
> 
> Obito isn't necessary, *anyone could've come along *and plucked out his eye.
> 
> .



Come along, at that exact moment, of the BATTLE of Kannabi Bridge, without being noticed, by pure chance, or by stakling them for some reason, for that ordinary 2 tomoe sharingan, knowing its potential, and knowing something would happen, ready to watch him die and take.
Seems simple enough


----------



## bearzerger (Aug 22, 2012)

Deshi Basara said:


> The only one who Gai hasn't been close to and familiar with are Izuna, Kagami etc At least he knows Obito.



Merely knowing isn't enough for a dramatic reaction



> Sorry, but Kakashi will clearly play a HUGE role.There was no point in him being instrumental in damaging Tobi and Tobi having Obito's eye, otherwise.



He already did play a huge role. Also Obito's body being used would affect him quite enough already without it having to actually be Obito.



> If its Obito, or say Rin, Gai, Kakashi and Obito/Rin will inform Naruto of who they were.



If it's Kagami Kakashi and Gai can do the same and if it's Izuna his sobstory may give us some more backstory for the next villain, Madara.



> Sorry but no, just NO.After all the shit that happened, it won't be Izuna, Kagami or anyone else that Gai and Kakashi never knew or even met.Kishi was just trolling with all the hints that Kakashi and Gai knew whoever is behind Tobi's mask?Sure.



You were the one who brought up Obito having been similar to Naruto, weren't you? So it's about Naruto's reaction to Tobi's sobstory and not Kakashi's or Gai's. And to Naruto it doesn't make any difference whether it's Obito, Izuna, Kagami or Mary Poppins behind that mask. He doesn't know either.

Just for the record I'm not saying it may not be Obito's face behind that mask, the question is whose mind it is that controlls the body.



> And what was the need to hide when Madra was out of the bag, if he's Izuna or Kagami?People the shinobi world don't give a darn about???Much less Naruto, Kakashi, Gai, Bee?



That argument cuts both ways. What was the need to hide that he's Obito? People in the shinobi world give even less a fuck about him. Atleast Izuna is somewhat famous. We don't know about Kagami, but he was definitely better known than Obito. 
Obito was an absolute no name known only to those of Kakashi's age in Konoha. If Tobi feared his S/T ninjutsu being recognized why didn't he just kill Kakashi when he had the chance? Which he did atleast twice.



> This will make a whole of a lot less sense than the explanation for Obito/Rin's turn.



Far from it. Nothing is more important than the motivations for a face/heel turn in a character. If Tobi didn't become a villain of his own free will, but was just genjutsued into being one his entire character is pretty much worthless. 
His actions, his goals his entire being is just something someone else decided for him. Which is why I would call him a sad, pathetic tool. 
Far better to have someone completely unexpected be Tobi than for someone expected who has a completely shitty explanation for his actions.


----------



## 3rdgenkage (Aug 22, 2012)

SHUSHI SHUSHI SHUSHI SHUSHI SHUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


but I would be happy if it was Obito just to see so many people who dismissed the theory wrong.


----------



## Bender (Aug 22, 2012)

Izuna I just know its gonna be him.


----------



## dwade (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito theory is about 99.9% complete. Just one more chapter...


----------



## Tyrion (Aug 22, 2012)

IZUNA IZUNA

COME ON KISHI! DONT LET US DOWN!


----------



## 3rdgenkage (Aug 22, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Good times.



I always knew who the 6th coffin was I was 100 % sure. This one though I'm not as sure about.


----------



## Kahvehane (Aug 22, 2012)

If Tobi is Obito then what the hell is his motivation? How does someone with his values become the archvillain? Is it another one of those foil-for-Naruto situations?

I personally think a scavenger theory is most plausible - that someone found Obito and took his eye. BUT given Tobi's abilities with the sharingan that person would have to be an Uchiha. So which Uchiha... Shisui? Izuna?

But then why did Kishimoto make a point of writing Kakashi gaiden? To introduce us to Obito and explain where "Tobi" got his sharingan? Or is it to provide backstory for Obito, who would eventually be revealed to be the villain?

It's a tough call.


----------



## Tyrion (Aug 22, 2012)

We see another mask beneath his mask


----------



## MaskedMan88 (Aug 22, 2012)

Tobi is Kagami...

I still believe he is Kagami... I also believe Kagami is obito and shisui's father and also madara's son.  

Kagami has always been mad at kakashi for letting his son obito die.  resents him

When he told kakashi last chapter.  "Im not afraid of some borrowed power you can only use a bunch of times" He simply means kakashi is not an uchiha... Kakashi using the sharingan is a borrowed power not any normal person can do it.  This doesnt mean tobi owns that eye as if hes obito.   Tobi is kagami and obitos father so that power is rightfully his.

THIS IS THE TRUTH!!!


----------



## notBowen (Aug 22, 2012)

Rin wearing Obito's skin. Done.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Kahvehane said:


> If Tobi is Obito then what the hell is his motivation? How does someone with his values become the archvillain? Is it another one of those foil-for-Naruto situations?
> 
> I personally think a scavenger theory is most plausible - that someone found Obito and took his eye. BUT given Tobi's abilities with the sharingan that person would have to be an Uchiha. So which Uchiha... Shisui? Izuna?
> 
> ...



big holes in solid rock.
big holes in solid rock.
big holes in solid rock.

Foreshadowing Much on the Identity?

Obito: "Anyway if I'm that kind of trash, I'll break the rules, If that's not the idea of being a shinbo, then I'll BREAK that idea of a shinobi!"

Who does that sound like to you, a special main character that we know?


----------



## Deshi Basara (Aug 22, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> Merely knowing isn't enough for a dramatic reaction
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Gai knows what Obito meant for Kakashi.And that Obito was supposed to be dead.So yeah, its enough.



OKAY, i admit.. Izuna/Kagami possesing Obito's body is a possibility.




			You were the one who brought up Obito having been similar to Naruto, weren't you?
		
Click to expand...


Yep, and?But that was only part of the whole thing.Kakashi and Gai knowing Obito also were in my previous posts.






			And to Naruto it doesn't make any difference whether it's Obito, Izuna, Kagami or Mary Poppins behind that mask. He doesn't know either.
		
Click to expand...


It will be explained to him.And Naruto would care far more about someone who was so important to his sensei than f'n Izuna or Kagami.

More importantly, it will only further emphasize what Itachi said to him.That he can turn into Tobi..      if Tobi was Obito.




Kishi hiding Obito makes sense.For the sake of the readers and Kakashi.Izuna or Kagami, does not.What would be the point of that?



If its Obito we'll see what explanation Kishi comes up with for his turn.I rather not speculate about that.
*


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

Edo Madara said:


> I will never accept tobito even if its proven, like I said before its just doesn't make any sense and will be the biggest asspulll in this damn of manga


it can't be an asspull if it was planned for the majority of the manga.

Also, that's pretty pathetic if you can't accept it even if it's proven, because if it's proven then you have to accept it.

What? Are you gonna get all in denial just cuz Tobi's not who you want him to be?



PikaCheeka said:


> I'm sorry I'm 24ed, because you deserve a rep more than most of the people I've repped in the last 24 hours.
> 
> Tobito happening would be like Kishi giving up entirely on his manga. I can't see any self-respecting author do it, and I'll be horribly embarrassed if I wasted years of my life reading something that the author himself doesn't care about.


Tobi being Obito would be the only possible outcome for his that shows that Kishi actually DOES care for his manga.

Obito fits with all of Kishi's established themes, and he's a character people can sympathize with. 

Why does Kakashi have yet to receive closure on his character?

But, I suppose nothing will get through your thick head.



bearzerger said:


> Well, not that I put much stock in it, but I'm gonna say he's Kagami using Obito's body. Since Kagami means mirror he decided to spell part of Obito's name backwards. My proof? Kishi loves lame puns.






Don-kun said:


> Obito will be perfect for Kakashi to finally move on since he also need his resolution, it seems that no one cares about Kakashi's closure because they want it to be someone else or refuse to accept they were wrong.


This.



jacamo said:


> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Kishi is making Tobi = Obito too damn obvious
> 
> ...


So, you go at others for explaining your so called Obito "plotholes" by coming up with "fanfictions", yet you're now denying the manga and coming up with something completely preposterous just to hold on to your theory. You're even saying that your theory is the only way out. Well, guess what. YOU'RE. NOT. KISHI!



ScienceFiction said:


> Okay. So Obito was like 15 when he fought the 4th and summoned Kyuubi?


Yep.



jacamo said:


> NEVER GIVE UP UNTIL THE END


This is what we call denial.



jacamo said:


> or maybe all S/T Jikukan jutsu share a dimension?







> really? a lot of people seem to think otherwise


How does how many people think otherwise affect the outcome?[/QUOTE]



Mistshadow said:


> '
> ONLY way out guys, It's IMPOSSIBLE guys,
> Seems like someone is grasping at straws. Just admit its 'POSSIBLE' that Tobi is Obito and I will lessen my posts comments and insults that are coming next week. That's all I've been asking, yet you get angry and wonder why, when I have been getting proven right time and time again with my speculative assumptions and analyses.
> 
> ...


He doesn;t listen to anything. He just makes up complete bullshit fanfic assumptions with nothing backing it up.



BlazingInferno said:


> Though it is looking like he is Obito, I'm still hoping he's not. If he is, then he'll convert with the talk no jutsu.


hat will happen no matter WHO Tobi is.



jacamo said:


> not all Uchiha have to follow the convential rules
> 
> as Tobi said, its a rarity for Uchiha to awaken Susano


This has to do with him having the same MS pattern HOW?



Tyrion said:


> IZUNA IZUNA
> 
> COME ON KISHI! DONT LET US DOWN!


I don't get it. What's so special about izuna. He had absolutely no character, and it would be extremely anti-climactic for Tobi to be revealed to not be Madara, just to be revealed as his brother. Not to mention it makes no sense, and no one there would recognize him.


----------



## anon04 (Aug 22, 2012)

i can see that a mile off
shisui it is


----------



## Ankit (Aug 22, 2012)

I believe it's not Obito, I feel there is a final twist to the plot coming up. How can Obito be big enough to fight Minato? My bet is with Izuna.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He doesn;t listen to anything. He just makes up complete bullshit fanfic assumptions with nothing backing it up.
> 
> hat will happen no matter WHO Tobi is.



BUT WAIT, it fits the timeline, so it has to work, no matter what, even if tobi is someone else, its still kagami, because HE FITS THE TIMELINE. Yess, wohooo, Flawless, 100%, has to be him, Thank you plot holes, you make it so the most likely person under the mask is impossible: Thank god I have my logic of a 10 year old to use, never fails me, say I'm right until everything points to me being wrong, then keep saying I'm right based on nothing somemore.
:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I don't get it. What's so special about izuna. He had absolutely no character, and it would be extremely anti-climactic for Tobi to be revealed to not be Madara, just to be revealed as his brother. Not to mention it makes no sense, and no one there would recognize him.



HEY, I like Izuna, but his name has never been said in the manga, so that's what's sad. Most people don't even realize his name has never been in the manga. It was in the databook people. Only edge he has on someone like Setsuna is he has 4 more panels than him and is related to Madara.



Ankit said:


> I believe it's not Obito, I feel there is a final twist to the plot coming up. How can Obito be *big *enough to fight Minato? My bet is with Izuna.



Define big. Obito would have been 15. that would not have required him to grow very much. Also have you seen some of the 15 year olds in this manga? Look at the sound 5 like Jirobo and Kimimaro. Look at Kakashi's height at the time of the attack. Seriously.

Or powerful enough? look at naruto and sasuke powers at 15. look at what chouji just did.


----------



## MYJC (Aug 22, 2012)

At this point it's pretty obvious that it's Obito. 

There was a period of time I was anti-Tobito, but at a certain point it just becomes denial. The last four or five chapters have made it pretty obvious that Tobi is in fact an older, very bitter Obito.


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 22, 2012)

Watching the denial is hilarious


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> And I would right now, but I would probably get a ban



you probably would, seeing as insulting people is your thing 



Mistshadow said:


> Then what is the exception and what is the norm.



the norm would be Uchiha like Shisui and Obito who awaken 1 MS jutsu but without Susano

the exception would be Uchiha like Sasuke, Itachi and Madara who awaken 2 MS jutsu with Susano

at least thats what Tobi implied, Susano being a rarity



Mistshadow said:


> Come along, at that exact moment, of the BATTLE of Kannabi Bridge, without being noticed, by pure chance, or by stakling them for some reason, for that ordinary 2 tomoe sharingan, knowing its potential, and knowing something would happen, ready to watch him die and take.
> Seems simple enough



Obito's father would know his eyes potential regardless

and its not a stretch for Zetsu to have found him *because Tobi and Zetsu work together,* Zetsu scavenges for bodies and EATS them all the time



MaskedMan88 said:


> When he told kakashi last chapter.  "Im not afraid of some borrowed power you can only use a bunch of times" He simply means kakashi is not an uchiha...



exactly... it would make sense for ANY Uchiha to say that because they ALL know non-Uchiha cant use the Sharingan to its fullest potential


----------



## HyouSan2 (Aug 22, 2012)

From the start, I never thought Tobi was Obito. After looking and reading what I could decipher with the help of Jisho.org of chapter 597, I really felt that this manga is meant to be read by babies lol. This is hyperbole but young kids in Japan. This makes me think Kishi would make Tobi Obito.

In denial though, I still hang on to Tobi not being Obito. Similar to like someone else said, I think what is going to happen is Tobi comes out and says "I'm Obito bitches!" But then, Edo Madara is going to come by and say "Shit, this guy? This guy isn't Obito, this guy is ____" And Tobi will freak out.

I want to look at the 598 raw and see if it will sway me either way, I think it is probably Obito though -_-


----------



## bearzerger (Aug 22, 2012)

Deshi Basara said:


> Gai knows what Obito meant for Kakashi.And that Obito was supposed to be dead.So yeah, its enough.



Not for a personal reaction on his part. He'd react to Kakashi not to Tobi.




> It will be explained to him.And Naruto would care far more about someone who was so important to his sensei than f'n Izuna or Kagami.



Why would it? What matters is the sobstory which made Tobi turn evil, not whether he is some guy his teacher knew twenty years ago. This isn't the same as it was with Nagato. With Nagato Naruto was made aware of the backstory Nagato had with Jiraiya before their fight. That's why Naruto had that link to him. With Obito that's not the case. Naruto would only find out about it after the fact. That's why Tobi being Obito is completely irrelevant to Naruto's reaction. You can't tell a friend that you knew some guy and expect that friend to immediately care about him. All he would do is care about you.



> More importantly, it will only further emphasize what Itachi said to him.That he can turn into Tobi..      if Tobi was Obito.



No, it wouldn't. 
As I said there is no rational explanation why Obito would turn that way on his own. He freely gave Kakashi his eye so he could still help Kakashi protect Konoha after his death and that someone would for absolutely no reason after miraculously surviving suddenly awaken the MS and become powerful enough to control the Kyuubi attack Konoha? Doesn't make any sense. Even the "Rin's death" argument is pure nonsense. Afterall had he returned to Konoha he might have kept her alive and besides instead of destroying everything he would have a far more personal grudge against Kakashi.
So, someone- Madara probably- must have brainwashed him to create the current Tobi and what would be the lesson Itachi wanted Naruto to learn in that? Take care that someone doesn't use a genjutsu to completely scramble your brains? Yeah, right.




> Kishi hiding Obito makes sense.For the sake of the readers and Kakashi.Izuna or Kagami, does not.What would be the point of that?



Izuna does make atleast as much sense as Obito. He is supposed to be dead afterall. As for Kagami, there are still quite a few of his contemporaries running around. Until two years ago Hiruzen, until recently Danzou and there are still the the two remaining elders.



> If its Obito we'll see what explanation Kishi comes up with for his turn.I rather not speculate about that.



Agreed. But the same holds true for anyone else. Even Mary Poppins.


----------



## Killer Zylos Wolf (Aug 22, 2012)

I have three prime suspects for this case, they are from most likely to less likely:

1)
*Spoiler*: __ 



The Rock that killed Obito:

Just look at the evil in it, crushing a poor boy to death. The Rock used Kakko as a cover, with it's amazing Genjutsu that even the Uchiha's can't compare in, it easily took control over Kakko and launched the attack. The Rock has lived it's life disgusted by the Uchiha, it uses it's power to have it's fellow rocks cause the defeat of plenty Uchiha's in history. Currently, it's pissed off about Madara taking control over it's mother and father and causing a lot of deaths in this war. The Rock is also a giant troll, even Edo Troll Mizukage fails in comparison to the level of troll The Rock has. The Rock's true face has yet to be revealed as well, I assume it'll look like this:

*Spoiler*: __ 




*FEAR IT!*







2)
*Spoiler*: __ 



Shikashi:

First off, just look at him, he looks exactly like Tobi, he has the same lines around his eyes, it must be him. This chapter, Kishi had a hidden meaning in one of the pages:

While at first glance it looks as if Guy is calling out to Kakashi, and that's true, but the hidden meaning is still there, Tobi's real name is Shikashi. 




3)
*Spoiler*: __ 



Some mad creation that Madara did to bring his brother back to life, he used Obito, Shisui, Izuna, Kagami, maybe others, and as a result he became "No One". Or he's just Obito with some Madara influence without anything to do with anyone else.




Pretty sure it's number 1, maybe number 2, doubtful it's number 3 but hey who knows, unlikely things could always happen, but it's pretty obvious Kishi is doing something obvious here, hence why number 1 is the most likely choice.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 22, 2012)

"I'm not afraid of some *borrowed* power..", "I'll show you the power of the *real* Kamui!" The fact that Gai is there and giving Kakashi much needed emotional support. If these are supposed to be yet more red herrings, then this is just insulting. There is a difference between one clue leading you to false conclusion and a dozen of them leading you to false conclusion. It's Obito. 

"I can't be this obvious!" "If it's supposed to be surprising, then it can't be Obito!" "Kishimoto can't possibly think we're this stupid!" -> I'll remind you people, for the umptieth time, that Kishimoto has 12 year olds in mind when he writes this story.

The mask breaks this chapter, but it's only half of it (the left one). Of course, it might fall but lol magic powers, it might be still stuck on the right part of his face. As such, we might get half of the mystery, but not all. Kishimoto can also go for a spin and show something else, that bastard.


----------



## anon04 (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Define big. Obito would have been 15. that would not have required him to grow very much. Also have you seen some of the 15 year olds in this manga? Look at the sound 5 like Jirobo and Kimimaro. Look at Kakashi's height at the time of the attack. Seriously.
> 
> Or powerful enough? look at naruto and sasuke powers at 15. look at what chouji just did.



so you couldn't accept the fact that a 15 year old sasuke would go toe to toe with the fastest known shinobi of current time or defeat a veteran like danzo 
or a 13 year old itachi would dismantle a legendary sanin's arm
it's all in front of you 
kishi wants us to acknowledge the potential in young uchihas after they have awakened their mangekyou


----------



## thesonicvision (Aug 22, 2012)

it's obito.


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## Ankit (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Define big. Obito would have been 15. that would not have required him to grow very much. Also have you seen some of the 15 year olds in this manga? Look at the sound 5 like Jirobo and Kimimaro. Look at Kakashi's height at the time of the attack. Seriously.
> 
> Or powerful enough? look at naruto and sasuke powers at 15. look at what chouji just did.



Tobi acknowledged Minato after he owned him as if is someone bigger in age and experience than Minato(Tobi said Minato is worthy of the Hokage title). Yes, it is possible for Obito get top tier power at that age and you can also compare him with Sasuke who acts arrogant while fighting others. But, I feel that it was experience of a seasoned fighter when he was talking with Minato, not arrogance of a teen Uchiha.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Aug 22, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> Not for a personal reaction on his part. He'd react to Kakashi not to Tobi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Irrelevant in your opinion.But how close he was in personality with Naruto seems very relevant to me.

Yes, as of now there's no rational explanation for why Obito will make such a drastic turn on his own.Doesn't mean there isn't one.We aren't all knowing.

Yeah, Izuna is supposed to be dead.And that justifies Kishi playing this game for so long and turning out to be Izuna will be satisfying conclusion.. no.. Izuna being alive won't make any difference at this point.Tobi would ve had no reason to hide this once Madara was out of the bag.

And again, Izuna has no relevance to Kakashi and Gai.The implications that they know who Tobi is were just Kishi trolling i guess..

Same applies for Kagami.*


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

anon04 said:


> so *you *couldn't accept the fact that a 15 year old sasuke would go toe to toe with the fastest known shinobi of current time or defeat a veteran like danzo
> or a 13 year old itachi would dismantle a legendary sanin's arm
> it's all in front of you
> kishi wants us to acknowledge the potential in young uchihas after they have awakened their mangekyou



Why are you quoting me? I was asking the other guy what was wrong with a 15 year old fighting minato and i used naruto and sasuke examples of ppl who achieved great power at such a young age. and yes i've used itachi as support also.



Ankit said:


> Tobi acknowledged Minato after he owned him as if is someone bigger in age and experience than Minato(Tobi said Minato is worthy of the Hokage title). Yes, it is possible for Obito get top tier power at that age and you can also compare him with Sasuke who acts arrogant while fighting others.* But, I feel that it was experience of a seasoned fighter when he was talking with Minato, not arrogance of a teen Uchiha*.



And you base this off of what exactly? It could have meant any number of things, you can't get one tone from a panel and say thats how it is. You didn't do anything to support it being Obito. It could just as easily be read as someone grudgingly accepting that an enemy is powerful and worthy of what they have. It could be read in numerous other ways that propose obito and propose someone else. propose someone younger and propose someone older. IDK where you get seasoned from the dialogue, but okay, fine with me.


----------



## maltyy (Aug 22, 2012)

It's Don Kanonji, he became a Naruto villain after losing popularity in Bleach. 

Nah jk, seriously, i'm gonna go with Izuna.


----------



## Tony Lou (Aug 22, 2012)

The time for bets is over, the author threw it in our faces in every page this week.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Luiz said:


> The time for bets is over, the author t*hrew it in our face*s in every page this week.



literallyyyyyyyyy


----------



## Easley (Aug 22, 2012)

hmm, will Kakashi even be conscious to see Tobi's face? I notice that he collapsed and just barely kept his eye open. He's in no condition to fight.


----------



## Stormcloak (Aug 22, 2012)

I still don't think he's obito


----------



## Neco (Aug 22, 2012)

It is Haku


----------



## anon04 (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Why are you quoting me? I was asking the other guy what was wrong with a 15 year old fighting minato and i used naruto and sasuke examples of ppl who achieved great power at such a young age. and yes i've used itachi as support also.



my apologies, i was seeing it in a different context


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Easley said:


> hmm, will Kakashi even be conscious to see Tobi's face? I notice that he collapsed and just barely kept his eye open. He's in no condition to fight.



He wouldn't lose consciousness in the middle of such a huge fight with his student in danger still. He just needs to catch his breath for a minute


----------



## Ankit (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> And you base this off of what exactly? It could have meant any number of things, you can't get one tone from a panel and say thats how it is. You didn't do anything to support it being Obito. It could just as easily be read as someone grudgingly accepting that an enemy is powerful and worthy of what they have. It could be read in numerous other ways that propose obito and propose someone else. propose someone younger and propose someone older. IDK where you get seasoned from the dialogue, but okay, fine with me.



You are right, these lines can be read otherwise too(in Tobi = Obito favour), but how can Minato confuse a 15 year old guy with a legendary Ninja?  One more thing, how did Tobi managed to give Nagato Rinnegan if he is Obito. It fits if he is Izuna, he even said those are his eyes.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

Easley said:


> hmm, will Kakashi even be conscious to see Tobi's face? I notice that he collapsed and just barely kept his eye open. He's in no condition to fight.



all he needs is Naruto or Bee to feed him some Biju juice


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Ankit said:


> You are right, these lines can be read otherwise too(in Tobi = Obito favour), but how can Minato confuse a 15 year old guy with a legendary Ninja?  One more thing, how did Tobi managed to give Nagato Rinnegan if he is Obito. It fits if he is Izuna, he even said those are his eyes.



Man if I had a nickel for every time I answered this question.
A: Minato dismissed the idea that he was Madara, he came to the conclusion, then DISMISSED it. As for how, perhaps Madara trained Tobi/Obito. Taught him to do the things he did.

Madara didn't die when we thought he did at vote, and WHEN he died has been intentionally left vague. IMO He died in between the 3rd shinobi war and the kyuubi incident.

B: MAYBE it was Madara who did those things such as give Nagato the Rinnegan. And that they were his eyes. He was pretending to be Madara. And that includes in front of Kabuto and the Reader. If he told Kabuto something different, he would be able to guess who he is and didn't want to give hints so could have kept on his madara persona. And if he mentioned something else, the reader would have instantly known for sure he wasn't Madara. Same reason we never saw Tobi's Sharingan until we knew he was an Uchiha. And Tobi's MS until we knew he had Obito's Sharingan. To believe Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan wouldn't necessariy, but almost definitely believe that he fought hashirama and stole his power at vote, which we know was done by Madara. One was a lie, so the other can ALSO be a lie.


Just a new thought I came up with for why Tobi was wearing one eyed mask at all other times we've seen him before the war, including in the past, was too fool EVERYONE, including Akatsuki members, 

He was hiding being an Uchiha, and his right eye he can turn on and off as he likes since it is originally his, but his left eye he is unable to since it is not originally his. Now he is fighting a war everyone knows that he is at the very least an Uchiha and has 2 eyes, so he is wearing the 2 hole mask.

THAT MAKES SENSE OMG THANKS FOR MORE SUPPORT ON MY THEORY


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

just a thought

but it makes more sense for Danzo to have twisted Obito with all his Root shenanigans than it does for Madara to have stayed alive for all that time


----------



## Wiseman Deathphantom (Aug 22, 2012)

I don't support any theory - Tobi can basically be anyone or no one (like he said). However, I have a psychological solution of sorts to the people who are emotionally oppising the theory that Tobi is Obito Uchiha. Basically, if he turns out to be Obito indeed, just think that he changed so much - both in body and mind - that he basically is a completely different character than Gaiden's Obito.


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 22, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> That's only the case if you ignore the second half of the damned statement. Obitards are thick and only see what they want to see.
> 
> The full statement is here:
> 
> ...



which makes it more possible to be obito


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> just a thought
> 
> but it makes more sense for Danzo to have twisted Obito with all his Root shenanigans than it does for Madara to have stayed alive for all that time



then Danzo killed himself and came up with the moon eye infinite tsukuyomi plan
which we know was created by madara


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 22, 2012)

wtf the manga never even stated that danzo met obito for all i know doesnt even know about obito. of course i could be wrong


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## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> then Danzo killed himself and came up with the moon eye infinite tsukuyomi plan
> which we know was created by madara



you have a point... just a thought


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 22, 2012)

I'm still rooting for Izuna. I'm riding this out to the end. Tobito has completely overwhelming evidence at this point, but it doesn't scare me.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> I'm still rooting for Izuna. I'm riding this out to the end. Tobito has completely overwhelming evidence at this point, *but it doesn't scare me*.



yeah it does, dont lie lol


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 22, 2012)

*most of you are close minded the manga never stated that obito died.

the last panel when they showed the boulders coming down on obito in the last second obito could of some how used his just to escape either that or seztu could of saved him because i dont think he died in instant he could of been alive a little longer after the boulders crushed him if they crushed him (like i said he could of used his jutsu on time or was saved) and he smile ppl dont usually smile when their about to die.

I think most of us can agree that zetzu is involved in this also if you notice in the last panel in the recent manga chapter 598 last page we could see a bit of the bandages  considering that is on his head can only mean is obito. But as i said before its a huge possibility because of the facts that has been proven so far.

I mean the first boulder did landed on obitos right side of his body that is why tobi has the bandages around his head  there is no other explanation to it*​


----------



## Nic (Aug 22, 2012)

i just love the fact that this guy

Tobi confirms Kamui was faster than the stake flying out of his eye

fooled the world. 


Kishi is the greatest.


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

Wiseman Deathphantom said:


> I don't support any theory - Tobi can basically be anyone or no one (like he said). However, I have a psychological solution of sorts to the people who are emotionally oppising the theory that Tobi is Obito Uchiha. Basically, if he turns out to be Obito indeed, just think that he changed so much - both in body and mind - that he basically is a completely different character than Gaiden's Obito.


That is completely false. He's still the same person and character. He just went through alot of change. It's the things that make up his character that allowed whatever happened to shape him into how he is now. He's still the same Obito as Gaiden Obito.

Nagato is still Nagato. Neji is still Neji. Sasuke is still Sasuke. Zabuza is still Zabuza.


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## jeffmusta (Aug 22, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> How is it showing all the quote change its meaning, lol? Tobi is derisive of it because it's borrowed in the first place. Of course everyone could say that, but what's more likely, from the guy whose power was borrowed from or from some random buy who is borrowing the same power as Kakashi?



He could have been implying that he, unlike Kakashi, could use Kamui to its full extent.



PositiveEmotions said:


> *most of you are close minded the manga never stated that obito died.
> 
> the last panel when they showed the boulders coming down on obito in the last second obito could of some how used his just to escape either that or seztu could of saved him because i dont think he died in instant he could of been alive a little longer after the boulders crushed him if they crushed him (like i said he could of used his jutsu on time or was saved) and he smile ppl dont usually smile when their about to die.*​



Itachi died with a smile on his face


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## ch1p (Aug 22, 2012)

jeffmusta said:


> He could have been implying that he, unlike Kakashi, could use Kamui to its full extent.



Let's assume that then. Tobi's mocking Kakashi can't use Kamui to its full extent because he borrowed it. On the other hand, he says _he_ can. What do you think it implies? The more likely? That his isn't borrowed or that he, with some convoluted BS, is actually able to use it at full power? It's the former, of course.


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## Kage (Aug 22, 2012)

welp it's probably obito 

man shits gonna get real around here if so.


----------



## jeffmusta (Aug 22, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> Let's assume that then. Tobi's mocking Kakashi can't use Kamui to its full extent because he borrowed it. On the other hand, he says _he_ can. What do you think it implies? The more likely? That his isn't borrowed or that he, with some convoluted BS, is actually able to use it at full power? It's the former, of course.



The same way he has "borrowed" the Rinnegan. Yes I think the quote is more likely to imply that Tobi is claiming superiority at Kamui's mastery.


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## remy1776 (Aug 22, 2012)

It's either Obito or some sort of time traveling character.


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## Menacing Eyes (Aug 22, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> Let's assume that then. Tobi's mocking Kakashi can't use Kamui to its full extent because he borrowed it. On the other hand, he says _he_ can. What do you think it implies? The more likely? That his isn't borrowed or that he, with some convoluted BS, is actually able to use it at full power? It's the former, of course.



To be fair, it could just be because he's an Uchiha while Kakashi isn't. All of Tobi's statements as of late are vague like that.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> Let's assume that then. Tobi's mocking Kakashi can't use Kamui to its full extent because he borrowed it. On the other hand, he says _he_ can. What do you think it implies? The more likely? That his isn't borrowed or that he, with some convoluted BS, is actually able to use it at full power? It's the former, of course.



i disagree... all it implies is that Tobi is a full-blooded Uchiha


----------



## Jesus Date (Aug 22, 2012)

It is Obito


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## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

remy1776 said:


> It's either Obito or some sort of time traveling character.


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 22, 2012)

jeffmusta said:


> Itachi died with a smile on his face



thats bc itachi finally did something good


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

not that it really matters, but... how did Kakashi know to name his MS jutsu by its proper name "Kamui"? the chronology is completely off here

is there a secret Uchiha database we dont know about? eh, whatever


----------



## jeffmusta (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> not that it really matters, but... how did Kakashi know to name his MS jutsu by its proper name "Kamui"? the chronology is completely off here
> 
> is there a secret Uchiha database we dont know about? eh, whatever



Good point - how did Itachi know to name it Susano'o?


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> not that it really matters, but... how did Kakashi know to name his MS jutsu by its proper name "Kamui"? the chronology is completely off here
> 
> is there a secret Uchiha database we dont know about? eh, whatever



i never thought of that but good question dude


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Aug 22, 2012)

Funnt shit it will be if an unknown guy appears and says "Hello I am Izuna"


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

yup... there must be a secret Uchiha database somewhere

Uchiha Police Station or the Konoha Library (the in-universe one)


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Aug 22, 2012)

Anyways it is definitely Obito's face there.


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 22, 2012)

idk why ppl think its izuna izuna would of been over a 100 years old and it would be to weak to control the gedo mazo like tobi did and yea


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## Mugivara (Aug 22, 2012)

Body is Obito but just body


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## Setsuna00 (Aug 22, 2012)

I understand critiquing the quote that I brought up. But...if he was saying it because Kakashi isn't an Uchiha and Tobi is, then he wouldn't use the word borrowed at all. Kishi doesn't just choose words willy nilly for main characters and villains. He said "borrowed" for a reason. And honestly Tobi would have flat out said Kakashi doesn't have the bloodline to fully use a MS technique. I still believe he used "borrowed" to imply he didn't borrow the same power.


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> not that it really matters, but... how did Kakashi know to name his MS jutsu by its proper name "Kamui"? the chronology is completely off here
> 
> is there a secret Uchiha database we dont know about? eh, whatever


Ya know... that's actually a really good question.



GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Anyways it is definitely Obito's face there.


Too many similarities. Same hairstyle, eyeshape, eyebrows, eyelid lines, and even facial structure. Can't be a coincidence. Well, I suppose it could, but it's highly unlikely.


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

Mugivara said:
			
		

> Body is Obito but just body


How does having Obito's body make him personally know and hate Kakashi so much?


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## Mugivara (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> How does having Obito's body make him personally know and hate Kakashi so much?



How does having Obito's mind make Obito hate uchiha klan and kill 'em all including his own family?


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## Butō Rengoob (Aug 22, 2012)

I will stick to Tobi is Izuna until the reveal and before cries of "denial", at this point it probably is Obito 'cause Kishi's just that bad but I've stuck with this theory since it's conception I'm not gonna turn coat just because things aren't going my way and evidence isn't very supportive of it.


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## jeffmusta (Aug 22, 2012)

Again for those trying to say the "borrowed" quote is absolute evidence that Tobi = Obito, how do you reconcile the fact that in his other eye is a "borrowed" Rinnegan?

Not to mention that Obito GAVE his eye as a birthday present to Kakashi - gifts aren't usually borrowed.

That quote aside, other parts of the chapter seem to indicate that he is Obito regardless.


----------



## Semplice (Aug 22, 2012)

If it's not Obito, then Kishimoto has been setting us up these last couple of chapters for nothing.

Idk.  I hope it's Obito so that the fans can stop squealing about it.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 22, 2012)

jeffmusta said:


> Again for those trying to say the "borrowed" quote is absolute evidence that Tobi = Obito, how do you reconcile the fact that in his other eye is a "borrowed" Rinnegan?



He is not currently making use of the Rinnegan's power.

His comment was solely in reference to Kamui.


----------



## Leuconoe (Aug 22, 2012)

Despite my butthurt, I guess I have to say the cute, sweet Obito has become Tobi. BC

But if he isn't, it'll be a cool surprise for me!


----------



## jeffmusta (Aug 22, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> He is not currently making use of the Rinnegan's power.
> 
> His comment was solely in reference to Kamui.



So you are suggesting that once he uses the Rinnegan he becomes a hypocrite?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Ya know... that's actually a really good question.



I've wondered that with numerous jutsu's far too many times a long long time ago.

If I had to guess, it would be either Tobi and Kakashi weren't the first ones who used the jutsu, and that there was in fact a past user who gave it the name and recorded it, ORRRRRRRRRR, Kakashi named it Kamui on his own, and Tobi never bothered to name his jutsu, and decided to go along with the name in this chapter.



jeffmusta said:


> So you are suggesting that once he uses the Rinnegan he becomes a hypocrite?



He's been a hypocrite and a liar since day 1............

It's a Tobi and Sasuke Thing


----------



## jeffmusta (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> He's been a hypocrite and a liar since day 1............
> 
> It's a Tobi and Sasuke Thing



I agree he's a hypocrite - I just don't think the point of that statement was to say Kakashi's power is borrowed and his isn't.

I think it was more to say that Kakashi doesn't have mastery over it while he does.

It would be an odd thing, even for a hypocrite, to say right there when his left eye is a Rinnegan.


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 22, 2012)

its so obvious that tobi could be obito unless kishi is tricking us but just like minato we all knew he was narutos father it was so obvious


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 22, 2012)

Ok people since last two episodes made you think that Tobi is Obito, I'll give you another detail about Kishi's fiction understanding:

1- Please check the photo:

Who is she? A woman? A talented Kunoichi?


*Spoiler*: __ 





Hell! No people he is Orochimaru!!!




2- Please check the photo:

Who are they? Which one of them is Nagato?


*Spoiler*: __ 





People couldn't you still know how Kishi make things? Nagato is here as following!!!:





3- Please check the photo:

Is this Sasori?


*Spoiler*: __ 





I can't believe you... This is not Sasori... this is just a puppet... Sasori is here:






4- Please check the photo:

Who is this? 2. Tshuchikage?


*Spoiler*: __ 





Oh my god! No he's not 2. Tshuchikage! He's just a puppet used by Kabuto... Here who he is:






Please try to be a good reader and try to see realities behind the puppets... Tobi is just a puppet...


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

I still don't get how people think that someone with the exact same hairstyle as Obito, and a face that looks just like his, and a very similar color preference, and also happened to have issues with Kakashi, just happened to be there during the battle of Kannabi Bridge at JUST the right time and took the eye of that specific person who was so much like him, and for some reason favored that eye over every single other sharingan he had, and decided to use that one eye, and it conveniently had super S/T capabilities, which he hadn't previously known about.

Do you people have ANY idea how ridiculous that sounds?!


Mugivara said:


> How does having Obito's mind make Obito hate uchiha klan and kill 'em all including his own family?


So, he was going to kill a newborn baby, his former sensei, his former sensei's wife, and destroy Konoha, and pretty much everyone in it, but you don't think he could have killed a few Uchiha?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

omg your right mugi, the biggest reveal we've had of this manga, the biggest mystery in YEARS, and its going to be someone who is controlled by a crippled behind a tree with chakra rods, with tobi being made out of wood, and constantly regenerating through the power of zombies after finding obito's broken up corpse in the boulders


orrrrrrrrr


occam's razor, the simplest answer is often the correct one

Tobi is Obito.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 22, 2012)

I-ZU-NAAAA!!

I-ZU-NAAAA!!! 

_* SaiST waves around the war banner._


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So, he was going to kill a newborn baby, his former sensei, his former sensei's wife, and destroy Konoha, and pretty much everyone in it, but you don't think he could have killed a few Uchiha?



And you're the one who claims that Obito does all this things because Rin died? Or what else made him this crazy?

I'm noot saying he did kill a couple of Uchiha. He did kill his own family...




Mistshadow said:


> omg your right mugi, the biggest reveal we've had of this manga, the biggest mystery in YEARS, and its going to be someone who is controlled by a crippled behind a tree with chakra rods, with tobi being made out of wood, and constantly regenerating through the power of zombies after finding obito's broken up corpse in the boulders
> 
> 
> orrrrrrrrr
> ...



My friend Tobi is not the final villain of this manga. He can be a puppet or a monster... Orochimaru is the oldest villain but Tobi is just a 100 chaptered villain..

Accept, my previous reply makes sense... Kishi till here always used same trick... Puppets..


----------



## Scizor (Aug 22, 2012)

I think Tobi is Obito.

I've been thinking that since chapter 594 and the latest chapter only strengthened that thought.

If Tobi turns out not to be Obito there'll have to be a panel with Kakashi thinking something along the line of: "whoops, I was wrong", which I don't see happening. 
That and the other recent Tobito hints make me reasonably think Tobi is Obito.


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

Mugivara said:
			
		

> And you're the one who claims that Obito does all this things because Rin died?


Yep.



> I'm noot saying he did kill a couple of Uchiha. He did kill his own family...


How do we know it was him who did it? Itachi took part in the massacre too. So maybe it was Itachi that killed them. Or maybe Obito's family was already dead by the time of the massacre.



			
				Mugivara said:
			
		

> My friend Tobi is not the final villain of this manga. He can be a puppet or a monster... Orochimaru is the oldest villain but Tobi is just a 100 chaptered villain..


Tobi's actually been around for over 300 chapters. Also, he's far more relevant and involved than Orochimaru. And he killed Naruto's parents. You're telling me he isn't FV?!





> Accept, my previous reply makes sense... Kishi till here always used same trick... Puppets..


Oh yeah, the face we've waited to see for so long isn't even the guy's real face...



SaiST said:


> I-ZU-NAAAA!!
> 
> I-ZU-NAAAA!!!
> 
> _* SaiST waves around the war banner._


So, Madara was working with someone he thinks is dead?

All this build up to his identity... and Kakashi goes "Wait, you're not Obito after all." So, that would mean Tobi has no connection to anyone on the battlefield.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> My friend Tobi is not the final villain of this manga. He can be a puppet or a monster...* Orochimaru is the oldest villain *but Tobi is just a 100 chaptered villain..
> 
> Accept, my previous reply makes sense... Kishi till here always used same trick... Puppets..



I never said he was the Final Villain, but it is the reveal we have been waiting for in highest anticipation compared to any other reveal in the manga I can think of. AL wasn't that long of a reveal waiting I don't recall. 

Actually Kabuto predates Orochimaru as longest villain. And i sternly hope and believe he will come back stronger and kicking more ass than ever after finding out who he 'truly' is as Izanami is meant to do. Because once you know who you are, you get instant power up yah know.

Well yeah, Tobi could be a puppet of Madara in a way, as a subordinate, as an old apprentice, since apparently there was some plan to resurrect Madara with Rinne Tensei. So perhaps Madara will take the reigns as boss of the moons eye plan. Especially since he obviously has a shit ton more brute force on his own, immortality in every sense of the word now, and being the originator of the plan of course for infinite tsukuyomi.

I hate it when people assume what my beliefs and ideas are. You know what they say about people who assume things of others, when you assume, you're just a bitch. lol I feel like I saw that on a movie or somewhere =p


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Yep.





> So, he was going to kill a newborn baby, his former sensei, his former sensei's wife, and destroy Konoha, and pretty much everyone in it, but you don't think he could have killed a few Uchiha?



Don't you think that there is a contradiction here?

Obito can kill everybody including his own family without hesitation but he will get crazy because only one person died... Hmm interesting... I think Obito was already crazy when he crashed under the rocks..



> How do we know it was him who did it. Itachi took part in the massacre too? So maybe it was Itachi that killed them. Or maybe Obito's family was already dead by the time of the massacre.



Come on you 100% know this that the Uchiha clan members have been killed by himself not Itachi.



> Tobi's actually been around for over 300 chapters. Also, he's far more relevant and involved than Orochimaru. And he killed Naruto's parents. You're telling me he isn't FV?!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, the face we've waited to see for so long isn't even the guy's real face...



You can think that Tobi is Obito because there are some evidences but thinking that Tobi is final villain is a different thing please don't go that way

Tobi is just a puppet you'll see this soon

Also any of you still couldn't explain why Zetsu insulted im as he's an idiot and why he was acted as an idiot while there were no witnesses


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Obito can kill everybody including his own family without hesitation but he will get crazy because only one person died... Hmm interesting... I think Obito was already crazy when he crashed under the rocks..
> 
> 
> 
> Come on you 100% know this that the Uchiha clan members have been killed by himself not Itachi.


The fuck are you talkin' about?





> You can think that Tobi is Obito because there are some evidences but thinking that Tobi is final villain is a different thing please don't go that way


I can think whoever the Hell I want is FV. Tobi has more of a chance of being FV than anyone else.

Tobi killed Naruto's parents. Who can top that?



> Tobi is just a puppet you'll see this soon


Oh, I will, will I?



> Also any of you still couldn't explain why Zetsu insulted im as he's an idiot and why he was acted as an idiot while there were no witnesses


Personally I think Tobi was just fuckin' around in that scene, lol.


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 22, 2012)

*IT IS CONFIRMED*

That Tobi is *not* Obito. 




You're like "WHAT? Dude, it's been pretty much established, Kishi pretty much said it this chapter..." Let me tell you the two main reasons this is not Obito (solely from this chapter):

1. kneaded directly on the body It is now official that Tobi uses mangekyo sharigan everytime that he uses his Space/Time Nin-jutsu. What does this mean? By now he should be *blind*. But he's not...meaning he must have EMS. Based on Tobi's reasoning that he got the eye at the battle of Kanabi...I think this means Tobi took Obito's eye so he could get *EMS* and therefore not get blind.

2. Kishi showed Kakashi *and* Gai both obviously thinking about Obito. This is making things way to obvious. Even someone that doesn't go on forums or talk to anybody about Naruto could deduce to this point that Tobi is Obito, which leads me to believe that Kishi is using a simple plot twist, leading us to Obito but changing everything on us.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 22, 2012)

What nonsense.

Tobi clearly does not have EMS, and the "Too obvious" argument is just silly denial.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Also any of you still couldn't explain why Zetsu insulted im as he's an idiot and why he was acted as an idiot while there were no witnesses



A: Deidara was still there behind the bushes if I recall?
B: To introduce readers to a new member joining Akatsuki and know wasn't random
C: To FOOL the readers, because then we wouldn't know there was anything special about him until the C0Explosion said he was Madara, so we would just overlook him

All Three are within Kishis style of writing to prevent problems.


----------



## Golden Witch (Aug 22, 2012)

Don't even start with:
"Making things too obvious."

No offense.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So, Madara was working with someone he thinks is dead?


As I've said numerous times already, based on the context on the conversation, Madara's statement does not imply that Izuna *has* to be currently dead.



> _All this build up to his identity... and Kakashi goes "Wait, you're not Obito after all." So, that would mean Tobi has no connection to anyone on the battlefield._


Besides the one rooted in animosity with Naruto(directly responsible for his dead parents), and Kakashi(using his friend's eye to wreak such havoc upon the Shinobi world, and his sacrifice to play mind games).

There doesn't necessarily need to be an interpersonal past relationship with any of the protagonists currently there.


----------



## Dim Mak (Aug 22, 2012)

I get what you're saying, but how is it 'confirmed'?


----------



## Mikaveli (Aug 22, 2012)

KiShiDo said:


> It is a random character... or a Kakashi-stalking Izuma or someone else. Not Obito. For a high IQ manga ala Naruto it can't be that obivious



Naruto is a high IQ manga? Since when?


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

there is no way Tobi would have said "do you have ANY idea how long ive waited for this moment?" to Kushina, if he was as young as Obito

Tobi is obviously someone MUCH older


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> A: Deidara was still there behind the bushes if I recall?
> B: To introduce readers to a new member joining Akatsuki and know wasn't random
> C: To FOOL the readers, because then we wouldn't know there was anything special about him until the C0Explosion said he was Madara, so we would just overlook him
> 
> All Three are within Kishis style of writing to prevent problems.



I'm talking about these not the one you've mentioned:


*Spoiler*: __ 








No witnesses, no existences just both of them...


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 22, 2012)

Its Shishui. Why do you ask?


Well something thats bothered me the past couple weeks and was finally proved today.

Most Uchihas(Itachi and Sasuke as examples) Usually have 2 MS techs. Theirs being Amaterasu and Tsukyomi. Which when both awake, Susanoo does to.


Shishui has 1 MS tech. KotoA in both eyes.

Obito has 1 MS tech. Kamui in both eyes.

Why is that Shishui and Obito only have 1 MS tech while Sasuke and Itachi have 2(Ama Tskuyomi)? Cause their fucking brothers

Shishui has the genjutsu MS (Koto, Tsu)
Obito has the offensive MS. (Kamui, Ama)

Shishui=Tobi


----------



## Closet Pervert (Aug 22, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> 1. kneaded directly on the body It is now official that Tobi uses mangekyo sharigan everytime that he uses his Space/Time Nin-jutsu. What does this mean? By now he should be *blind*.


That's a really good point. I hadn't thought of that. I'm not sure Kishi did either.


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

SaiST said:


> As I've said numerous times already, based on the context on the conversation, Madara's statement does not imply that Izuna *has* to be currently dead.


He was talking about how power is an actual thing. How does that relate to whether a person is dead or not?




> Besides the one rooted in animosity with Naruto(directly responsible for his dead parents), and Kakashi(using his friend's eye to wreak such havoc upon the Shinobi world, and his sacrifice to play mind games).
> 
> There doesn't necessarily need to be an interpersonal past relationship with any of the protagonists currently there.


I just don't see it, man. All this build up to his identity after it's revealed he's not Madara... and he's Madara's brother. All this waiting for his face and it turns out to be that of someone we've only seen in two panels. Not to mention that if he's Izuna, his hairstyle is totally different now from what it used to be, and would make it confusing to recognize him, especially since he looks so much like Madara and there's no one here to shout out his name if they recognize him. Unless, of course, Madara just randomly arrives just as the mask comes off and shouts "IZUNA!" But even THAT wouldn't help because his name wasn't even mentioned in the manga.

Also, I'm pretty sure everyone wants to see a face behind that mask that actually looks fairly different from Madara's. And I don't see how he could know Kakashi personally either.


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 22, 2012)

yea i think tobi is obito as well i mean people so so damn close minded that they dont see it as a possibility just because the manga showed the boulders hit that doesnt mean he was saved in a nic of time or he might of used his jutsu right on time as well


----------



## Paralakz (Aug 22, 2012)

Danzo. Til the end.


----------



## AMtrack (Aug 22, 2012)

*Place your Denial here...*

Feel free to join Kakashi and Gai in their denial.  I know there are those out there who will stubbornly believe Tobi to not be Obito until the end.  But realistically, we know its true.  Course I wont force you to admit it, so feel free to vent here.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Not to mention that if he's zuna, his hairstyle is totally different now from what it used to be, and would make it confusing to recognize him




Izuna would be immediately recognizable because of that prominent lip of his. We've never seen Tobi's mouth, not to mention Izuna's hair was tied in a pony tail, and from the looks of it it looked like if he let it out it'd be wild like Madara's.


----------



## Talis (Aug 22, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> Izuna would be immediately recognizable because of that prominent lip of his. We've never seen Tobi's mouth, not to mention Izuna's hair was tied in a pony tail, and from the looks of it it looked like if he let it out it'd be wild like Madara's.


Yes, that masked man is either Izuna or Madara.
But if you look at the mans chest at Kisames flashback you see a bandage on his chest, real Madara ''died'' having a sword cut through the chest.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 22, 2012)

You guys just have to come to terms with reality.

There is nothing pointing to Tobi being Izuna.

There is nothing pointing to Tobi being Kagami.

There is nothing pointing to Tobi being anyone but Obito at this point.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 22, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Yes, that masked man is either Izuna or Madara.
> But if you look at the mans chest at Kisames flashback you see a bandage on his chest, real Madara ''died'' having a sword cut through the chest.


You forget that Tobi had a FTG Kunai rammed into his chest by Minato.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Aug 22, 2012)

Paralakz said:


> Danzo. Til the end.


Fuck yea.


AMtrack said:


> Feel free to join Kakashi and Gai in their denial.  I know there are those out there who will stubbornly believe Tobi to not be Obito until the end.  But realistically, we know its true.  Course I wont force you to admit it, so feel free to vent here.


Will you eat a plateful of shit when you're proven wrong next chapter?


----------



## SaiST (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> He was talking about how power is an actual thing. How does that relate to whether a person is dead or not?


I really don't know how I could explain it any better than I have in the past. Madara's not saying that Izuna is currently dead, just that all that was left of his power after his death were from his eyes, which he now has. This was in direct relation to what he said immediately beforehand about Hashirama, concerning the power of his cells he left behind, and they both relate to what Madara counts as real power—tangible things. And this is why Tsunade immediately replied the way she did after Madara mentioned Izuna's ocular power.



> _I just don't see it, man. All this build up to his identity after it's revealed he's not Madara... and he's Madara's brother. All this waiting for his face and it turns out to be that of someone we've only seen in two panels._


Well, it's been more than two panels. He's been brought up almost every time the manga's delved into Madara's past, who's sacrifices have been made out to be a key component in driving the actions Madara has taken since defecting from Konoha all those years ago.



> _Not to mention that if he's zuna, his hairstyle is totally different now from what it used to be, and would make it confusing to recognize him, especially since he looks so much like Madara and there's no one here to shout out his name if they recognize him. Unless, of course, Madara just randomly arrives just as the mask comes off and shouts "IZUNA!"_


He doesn't look *that* similar to Madara. Hair was quite long, but not quite as full as Madara's(just as Tobi's used to be). And he's got those distinct looking lips.

Cutting to Madara's fight with the Gokage for a lil' exposition immediately before, and/or during Tobi's reveal could easily happen to ease folks into it.



> _But even THAT wouldn't help because his name wasn't even mentioned in the manga._


And you don't find that suspicious? 

A guy that's been brought up as much as he has along with Madara's past, even recently during the aforementioned conversation, and yet his name has yet to be dropped in the manga?

Hmm. HMMM!!



> _And I don't see how he could know Kakashi personally either._


Tobi stalks everybody he takes an interest in.

And before any of you go crazy on me, I recognize how likely Tobito is at this point. I've never denied the possibility, but never *liked* the prospect of Tobi being Obito. So, I'll cling to others that I actually *do* like, as long as they are within reasonable expectations.

And Izuna still is.


----------



## Talis (Aug 22, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> You forget that Tobi had a FTG Kunai rammed into his chest by Minato.


Which slipped through him. 
Nvm, i know which panel you mean.
I dont see Tobi wearing such a big bandage just for such a small stab wound lol, it was definately real Madara's wound.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> You guys just have to come to terms with reality.
> 
> There is nothing pointing to Tobi being Izuna.
> 
> ...



there are things pointing to Tobi being someone MUCH older than Obito


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 22, 2012)

loool3 said:


> Which slipped through him.


Link removed

Doesn't look like it slipped through to me. Not only that, but Minato was able to use a Keiyaku Fuin on him, which requires actually touching him.

EDIT: Oh okay you realized what panel it was. Nevermind then.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> there are things pointing to Tobi being someone MUCH older than Obito



Things which are worthless in the face of all the other recent evidence.


----------



## Scizor (Aug 22, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Things which are worthless in the face of all the other recent evidence.



I agree.

Holding onto a detail such as age at this point means one's denying the obvious hints the recent chapters contained.

They could be red herrings, but I doubt that.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 22, 2012)

"Red herring" is just another way of saying "I don't want to be wrong."


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Scizor said:


> I agree.
> 
> Holding onto a detail such as age at this point means one's denying the obvious hints the recent chapters contained.
> 
> They could be red herrings, but I doubt that.



but dude, we have plot holes, it makes obito 100% IMPOSSIBLE

You have to give me a GOOD explanation for them, not some crazy assumption based on very little


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 22, 2012)

Still no answer Tobito believers?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

The spoiler tag doesn't show me anything, its blank, so idk wanna describe it for me?


----------



## Scizor (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> but dude, we have plot holes, it makes obito 100% IMPOSSIBLE
> 
> You have to give me a GOOD explanation for them, not some crazy assumption based on very little



Kishimoto has the means to make nearly everything believable with a backstory as there are enough time-frames and characters in the manga to construct such a backstory.

I agree the Obito theory has some noteworthy holes, but at this point they'll either be rectified soon or will simply end up being inconsistencies.
That and the fact that Tobi being Obito could believably set a chain of explainations in motion regarding Kakashi and Rin, makes it a believable outcome from a writer's point of view.

Tobi's remarks and Kakashi's realisation are either clear hints or rediculous red herrings.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> The spoiler tag doesn't show me anything, its blank, so idk wanna describe it for me?



Chapter 280 Page 19-20


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Things which are worthless in the face of all the other recent evidence.



not in my opinion


what Tobi said to Kushina

when Tobi compared Naruto to Hashirama

Tobi knowing Aburame Shikuro... but not knowing his son Torune


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

SaiST said:


> I really don't know how I could explain it any better than I have in the past. Madara's not saying that Izuna is currently dead, just that all that was left of his power after his death were from his eyes, which he now has. This was in direct relation to what he said immediately beforehand about Hashirama, concerning the power of his cells he left behind, and they both relate to what Madara counts as real power—tangible things. And this is why Tsunade immediately replied the way she did after Madara mentioned Izuna's ocular power.
> 
> 
> Well, it's been more than two panels. He's been brought up almost every time the manga's delved into Madara's past, who's sacrifices have been made out to be a key component in driving the actions Madara has taken since defecting from Konoha all those years ago.
> ...


Fair enough.

I still don't think that there's any way he's Izuna, nor do I like the prospect of it, but you've made your points clear, so let's just agree to disagree.



Mugivara said:


> Still no answer Tobito believers?


My answer: U MAD, BRO?!


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> not in my opinion
> 
> 
> what Tobi said to Kushina
> ...



All very minor details.

Contrast that with the emphasis that has been placed on recent hints, like Tobi's personal spats with Kakashi, and Kakashi and Guy second guessing themselves.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Scizor said:


> Kishimoto has the means to make nearly everything believable with a backstory as there are enough time-frames and characters in the manga to construct such a backstory.
> 
> I agree the Obito theory has some noteworthy holes, but at this point they'll either be rectified soon or will simply end up being inconsistencies.
> That and the fact that Tobi being Obito could believably set a chain of explainations in motion regarding Kakashi and Rin, makes it a believable outcome from a writer's point of view.
> ...



I know, I was being Sarcastic sounding like a certain someone here who believes in absolutes with this manga on THEORIES of all things.



Mugivara said:


> Chapter 280 Page 19-20



Well then, A: Keep in mind that was over 310 chapters ago, so can't hold that as STRONG evidence and B: I always toss it up to Kishi trying to fool the reader, same reason Itachi wanted to take Kakashi with him and was ready to kill Asuma and Kurenai or ready to capture naruto right then and there.



jacamo said:


> not in my opinion
> 
> 
> what Tobi said to Kushina
> ...



A: 2 years is a long time for a kid/teen, or he was in that other dimension for a while and time flows differently similar to the DBZ Hyperbolic Time Chamber

B: Acting as Madara, Zetsu memories seem to be a good realistic replay so caught Hashirama tone from there

C: Do we have an age on Torune? Or an age of Shikuro? Maybe Shikuro was a popular aburama, it certainly sounds like it, back then, Torune lived in secret as part of root.

All of these POSSIBLE


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> All very minor details.
> 
> Contrast that with the emphasis that has been placed on recent hints, like Tobi's personal spats with Kakashi, and Kakashi and Guy second guessing themselves.



they all strongly imply that Tobi is someone much older than Obito

thats all im saying


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> they all strongly imply that Tobi is someone much older than Obito
> 
> thats all im saying



Yes, and they hold much less weight than other, more recent hints is what I'm saying.


----------



## Algol (Aug 22, 2012)

KiShiDo said:


> Here is the prove
> 
> Link removed
> 
> To obivious if he really is it... Oh wait this is a teen manga :rofl



kishi's obvious throughout this entire series. it's his MO (asuma and jiraiya's death, nagato being pain before the actual reveal [when konan said his name], tobi not being madara, and now obito being tobi)

why complain now.


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

Someone care to tell why Rin's death hasn't been explained yet?


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 22, 2012)

tell kishi he mite tell u


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Yes, and they hold much less weight than other, more recent hints is what I'm saying.



in my opinion they hold equal weight 

but i see your point... this page is just 

*Spoiler*: __ 





*jesus christ Kishi... jesus christ*


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Someone care to tell why Rin's death hasn't been explained yet?



NOBODY gives a FLYING FUCK about that STUPID WHORE BITCHY SLUT fodder chick that kept sleeping around sucking dick and who caused the 'DEATH' of one of the most beloved will of fire Uchiha's in the history of the manga, ONLY behind the likes of Shisui and Itachi fighting their stupid Curse of Hatred.


Wait, Who's Rin again?

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> in my opinion they hold equal weight
> 
> but i see your point... this page is just
> 
> ...


So, basically, you're just pissed cuz Tobi is someone you don't want him to be, so now it's apparently Kishi's fault for doing what he wants to do with and doing what's best for his manga?



			
				Mistshadow said:
			
		

> NOBODY gives a FLYING FUCK about that STUPID WHORE BITCHY SLUT fodder chick that kept sleeping around sucking dick and who caused the 'DEATH' of one of the most beloved will of fire Uchiha's in the history of the manga, ONLY behind the likes of Shisui and Itachi fighting their stupid Curse of Hatred.
> 
> 
> Wait, Who's Rin again?


Um, what?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Um, what?



No I did, I just wanted a funny laugh <3 And I  laughed hard

I just wanted to troll, this one and only time, to see how it felt like, and who better than a friend =p


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:
			
		

> No I did, I just wanted a funny laugh <3 And I laughed hard
> 
> I just wanted to troll, this one and only time, to see how it felt like, and who better than a friend =p


Oh, okay. But seriously, I wonder why no one can give an answer of why Rin's death hasn't been explained yet.

They know it could be part of Obito's motive!


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> A: 2 years is a long time for a kid/teen, or he was in that other dimension for a while and time flows differently similar to the DBZ Hyperbolic Time Chamber
> 
> B: Acting as Madara, Zetsu memories seem to be a good realistic replay so caught Hashirama tone from there
> 
> ...



A: time travel it is then 

B: always with the lying/acting excuse whenever its convenient

C: Shikuro is clearly from a much older generation




ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So, basically, you're just pissed cuz Tobi is someone you don't want him to be, so now it's apparently Kishi's fault for doing what he wants to do with and doing what's best for his manga?



 when did i ever say any of those things?


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Aug 22, 2012)

He's Obito. In fact, it has to be real buttpull if it's not.


----------



## rootkid (Aug 22, 2012)

At times like this, I like to repost this thread from another forum (it shows, that it just cant be obito):

its not from me, but the author really knows waht hes talking about 



> Plothole Number 1: Tobi’s Power Level (chapters 500-504).
> There is no way Obito could turn into an alpha dog shinobi who mastered S/T phasing and teleportation within a 1-2 year time frame. At 15 years old? No way... There is also no way Obito would know how to extract the Kyuubi, hypnotize it, control it like a puppet, and then summon it wherever the hell he wants to. And all of this is supposed to have happened 1-2 years after Obito supposedly died? That’s just not feasible.
> 
> Plothole Number 2: Personality U-turn (chapter 241 page 19).
> ...


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Gahahahahahahahaha

If I didn't know better I would say Jacamo made a dupe account.
Well you know what they say, there is no such thing as bad publicity.

But anyways new guy, I debunked each and every one of those with a possible explanation, which means since I could do it kishi can, and this are not plot holes and don't make anything impossible. Kishi is vague with dates and made tobi a liar for the purpose of us not knowing truth and lie so we can't 100% say obito is impossible or obito is 100% confirmed


----------



## SaiST (Aug 22, 2012)

... Lol, rootkid. Look at jacamo's signature.


----------



## rootkid (Aug 22, 2012)

i love these forums, but now i know again, why i never posted anything here

anyway i am notz someone who argues alot, its someones opinion, and i agree with it

and yeah i didnt know that the author was here on these forums, maybe that guy from the other forum reposted it too


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

dont know what to make of this... i dont visit other forums

there are actually a couple more plotholes i could add to the list, but we are so damn close to the reveal now that i dont see the point


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> dont know what to make of this... i dont visit other forums
> 
> there are actually a couple more *QUESTIONS *i could add to the list, but we are so damn close to the reveal*ing of OBITO* now that i dont see the point



Fixed for you


----------



## Somnus (Aug 22, 2012)

This is comedy gold.

It's incredible how even when the revelation of Obito being Tobi is in their faces, the "above-average intelligent ones" deny it will all of their might implying that Tobi being Izuna or a clone could EVER be considered good writting. 

Having a MASKED character being a UNKNOWN/UNFAMILIAR character must be the most retarded asspull a writer could ever do. 

Next week we'll have half of narutoforums gone because no one that still claims that Tobi is not Obito with all of this proof can ever be humble enough to assume defeat.


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 22, 2012)

Ok. Ok. Alright 


1. Let's go over how obvious this is. People are creating a very illogical train of thinking when they say "Derp. Well derp I mean derp since Minato being Naruto's father derp was so derping obvious, Tobi being Obito has to be derping obvious as well derp derp!" Whoever has the lack of mental abilities to think this way needs to re-adjust their educational focus. Naruto's father was not something we had dogging our minds as some huge mystery that had to be revealed. It was something in the background, not essential to the plot in anyway, just something that was "there". Tobi's identity is at the FOREFRONT of the plot, it's something that's had countless theories and debates on. I know I didn't give a hell of who's Naruto's father was nor was I surprised in the least that his father was the Fourth Hokage (they practically look like twins). However, let's look at the Itachi Revalation...there was a *very* small group of people that predicted that Itachi was "good". It was just completely unexpected...and this wasn't even at the forefront of the plot. Now take Tobi, he's at the forefront of the plot, his identity has been a mystery for exactly 318 chapters...approximately 7+ years. 7 years for people to theorize, hate, debate, you name it. Kishi planned this out, he's not here to make it some contrived, plot-hole filled, and stereotypical Star Wars reveal in which Tobi ends up being Obito. 

2. It has been confirmed that the phasing technique is a Mangekyo Sharigan technique...either Tobi has Senju DNA which enables the blindness come more slowly (which is ridiculous as Tobi has been spamming this since AGES ago) or the more plausible option of this being an EMS and Tobi can simply swap through forms (it has never been confirmed that you CANT swap between EMS form and Mangekyo sharingan form but I don't see this being a problem as one can easily swap from Mangekyo and normal sharingan). 

3. Why make the reveal so dramatic if Kishi already revealed it? LOL, do you see what I mean and how stupid it would be? Example:

The mystery: Who is superman?
The reveal: He is a nerd.
Breakdown:
Chapter X - Superman is strongly hinted to be "the nerd".
Chapter Y - Superman is strongly hinted AGAIN to be "the nerd" and is pretty much revealed to be the nerd...and the mask blasts off.
Chapter Z - Superman is revealed to be "the nerd".

Where's the reveal. This is just stupid. You reveal who's behind the mask...and then you reveal it again. What's the point?

Kakashi: I can't...believe this...could it be him?
*Naruto destroys the mask and Obito shows his face*
Kakashi: So I'm right. And I killed the suspense at the SAME DAMN TIME.


4. The plot holes. I don't even need to elaborate because just the mere fact that NUMEROUS plot holes have been possibly found only shows that this will need a contrived and a*spulled explanation that will demonstrate terrible writing. A great plot twist is one that is extremely hard to be predicted, but can be predicted, has NO possible or real plot holes, and finally something that was completely opposite of where the plot was going (hence, the plot "twists").


Have a good day people.


----------



## Phemt (Aug 22, 2012)

Somnus said:


> This is comedy gold.
> 
> *It's incredible how even when the revelation of Obito being Tobi is in their faces, the "above-average intelligent ones" deny it will all of their might implying that Tobi being Izuna or a clone could EVER be considered good writting.
> 
> ...



QFT!

And that should be common sense, but that's rare these days.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> Ok. Ok. Alright
> 
> 3. Why make the reveal so dramatic if Kishi already revealed it? LOL, do you see what I mean and how stupid it would be? Example:
> 
> ...



The first 2 were too Incoherent for me to process.

I'll start with 3:
It's dramatic because the series is meant to be read as VOLUMES, not chapters once a week, but a VOLUME in one sitting. They release it in chapters per week because we as readers will give them money for our crack fix. But in the authors mind, they are writing in the terms of volumes. And TObito didn't become 'obvious' until the last few weeks, and painstakingly obvious until the last 2 chapters. So it will still work, before this motion of a few weeks on fighting, it was still 'up in the air' so to say on who it was.

4: I'm sick of this, I've gone over plot holes, you people don't even know the definition of a plot hole. If it CAN be explained, it WILL be explained, unless you think Kishi is a hack writer. And if I of all people can explain it, and you want to say Kishi can't, then am I smarter than him?..........Well we all know Kishi can explain it. He's not going to explain it NOW or BEFORE now because if we got the explanation before the reveal............what kind of fucking bad writing would that be. He's been intentionally vague on details. using words like 'shortly' and 'grown up' and giving in lies and truths to prevent us from being 100% with out a doubt on anything when it comes to Tobi. Which is INTENTIONAL on Kishi, so to say any of those make it impossible to be Obito, despite there being SO MUCH insisting on Tobi being Obito, You fail as a reader and need to go away if anyone can't figure this out. Serious, Absolutes are not your friends in a theory boys and girls.


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## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

thats BS Misty, ive also explained why they ARE plotholes

but im starting to understand your resentment 

if youve been visiting other forums and have been seeing my plotholes being copy-and-pasted all over the place... its no wonder youre annoyed


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Aug 22, 2012)

Rokudaime said:


> Mine: Anyone but definitely not Obito.
> 
> Reason: Why? Too obvious.



That's what I said about Minato being Naruto's father.


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## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 22, 2012)

Well, you obviuosly skipped my first and second points because those were the ones that were most important. I don't believe you're that stupid, Mistshadow. Let me recap those two points

1. The argument that Kishi makes his reveals obvious is stupid.

2. Tobi likely has EMS.


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## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

Tobi has said things that strongly imply he is much older than Obito

Tobi was doing things when Obito wouldnt have been born yet.... Tobi was also scheming things when Obito would have still been in the ninja academy

jesus christ... if you want to convince yourself otherwise then go ahead


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 22, 2012)

I don't get why everyone expects a twist. Then it's not a twist anymore. Itachi, no one ever expected. People expect a twist when kishi is already slowly, but confirming that Tobi is Obito


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

joshhookway said:


> I don't get why everyone expects a twist. Then it's not a twist anymore. Itachi, no one ever expected. People expect a twist when kishi is already slowly, but confirming that Tobi is Obito




the argument is that Kishi is making it TOO obvious... people were fapping about how Tobi could seriously be Obito over 10 chapters ago

aside from the plotholes argument, that is


----------



## Hexa (Aug 22, 2012)

Obito is definitely the top candidate.  I think some people are way too convinced that Tobi either is or isn't Obito, though.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> Well, you obviuosly skipped my first and second points because those were the ones that were most important. I don't believe you're that stupid, Mistshadow. Let me recap those two points
> 
> 1. The argument that Kishi makes his reveals obvious is stupid.
> 
> 2. Tobi likely has EMS.



Thank you for simplifying.

1. Yes I agree saying that Kishi always make the reveals that obvious is a stupid argument, but the argument that Kishi would NEVER make it that obvious is a stupid argument too. That's why I don't use it to support it, but I use it to say that its not impossible.

2. Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Tobi may have EMS, But my theory that I created on why Tobi had a ONE hole eye mask until the war is because he always had his right eye showing. But to HIDE the fact that he is an Uchiha, he was able to turn off the right eye, meaning that the right eye was and always has belonged to him. The left eye seems to be the always active eye, so if he had that eye showing, then he would be caught and everyone would instantly know he is an Uchiha. Along with the fact he usually uses that was a token for Izanagi numerous times, means that is the eye he always replaces while his right eye is special. 
If that wasn't the reason for the one eye mask, then why wouldn't Deidara and the rest of Akatsuki have  noticed. ESPECIALLY Deidara who HATES the Sharingan with a passion, how would he not notice that he has his an uchiha eye. But no his act before that hinged on him being mysterious.
Now he has 2 eye mask to always show the rinnegan and because his secret of being an Uchiha is over anyways.


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## Talis (Aug 22, 2012)

*Cough *Cough, Madara (Obito) script.


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## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

I'll asnwer these, if you don't mind.





			
				MonkeyDNaruto said:
			
		

> 1. The argument that Kishi makes his reveals obvious is stupid.


Well, the argument has it's points, but it's definitely not that great of an argument.



> 2. Tobi likely has EMS.


This chapter confirmed that he only has MS.

Also, the drawn out MS usage can be from Senju DNA.

Edit: Never mind, he already got to them. I never get to answer anything when Mist is here...


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> These chapters are meant to be released in VOLUMES. So, it's supposed to be read all at once, not giving anyone any time to think. So, no it;s not stupid. The casual. One more time? CASUAL. Not extreme fans like us, but CASUAL fan probably didn't even think of tobi being Obito.


He's been dropping massive hints for 5 chapters now. That's roughly 100 pages. Do you really think that over the course of 100 pages the reader isn't going to assume it's Obito if they've read the other volumes?


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## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

lol sorry.

When in doubt, Hashirama Senju DNA solves all of lifes problems apparently.

Got a 10 year cool down on MS? Get some Hash DNA to make it a 1 Day CD.

Want to support multiple Sharingan eyes for Izanagi on an arm? Get some Hash DNA.

It probably also slows down the deterioration of MS Jutsu's too. Kishi can make it so if he really wants.



Menacing Eyes said:


> He's been dropping massive hints for 5 chapters now. That's roughly 100 pages. Do you really think that over the course of 100 pages the reader isn't going to assume it's Obito if they've read the other volumes?



Volumes are about 8 chapters long..............So yes that's fine.


----------



## Awesome (Aug 22, 2012)

Something I found interesting. Tobi clenches his hands when he says the line "And Willingly Gave his eyes to me"

Tobi obviously shows negative emotions regarding this type of topic. This can easily be explained if he was Izuna (Which is just lol a lol theory at this point), but can also easily be explained if he was Obito. That was the only topic during his conversation with Sasuke that he showed any time of emotion. The only other time he has shown outward resentment was when he talked to Kakashi during his current fight. I would like someone to explain to me why Tobi harbors resentment towards the sharing of eyes if we he was *not* Obito. 

I'll try this myself:


Izuna is the only likely candidate here. The only problem here is that if Izuna willingly gave Madara his eyes, but later fostered resentment, why would he be working with Madara currently? Not only that, but he's dead. There's no possible way that he can be alive at this point. In terms of age, he should be between 100 and 110, which is simply unreasonable. He would have had to have taken over Obito's half dead body (but why not take over another half dead Uchiha and just keep Obito's sharingan? You know, one that doesn't need Zetsu goo.)




Kagami... there really is no way to explain this unless you think that Kagam is Obito's father. But even then, why would he be mad that his son gave Kakashi his sharingan when he was dying anyway? He shouldn't harbor any resentment towards Kakashi regarding this matter, and you certainly shouldn't feel any resentment for the acts of willingly giving eyes.

Those are the only two Tobi candidates that have even a sliver of of being possible, but this is one plot hole that simply cannot be overlooked.


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## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

Awesome said:


> Something I found interesting. Tobi clenches his hands when he says the line "And Willingly Gave his eyes to me"
> 
> Tobi obviously shows negative emotions regarding this type of topic. This can easily be explained if he was Izuna (Which is just lol a lol theory at this point), but can also easily be explained if he was Obito. That was the only topic during his conversation with Sasuke that he showed any time of emotion. The only other time he has shown outward resentment was when he talked to Kakashi during his current fight. I would like someone to explain to me why Tobi harbors resentment towards the sharing of eyes if we he was *not* Obito.
> 
> ...


Very interesting point.


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## Menacing Eyes (Aug 22, 2012)

You know, for someone who "died on the battlefield", you'd think Izuna would have some form of injury or something. I find it really odd that in his coffin panel he has none. In fact, he looks perfectly fine, at least from what we can see. 

this


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## rajin (Aug 22, 2012)

HE clearly either IZUNA UCHIHA or UCHIHA MADARA OR simply TOBI


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## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

Never noticed, and if it's obito, he could easily be feeling the clenched anger as resentment towards the giving of eyes where at this point in time he regrets giving his eye away and is angry at just the idea of uchiha's taking away from siblings. Maybe this is the story that made him have such 'resentment' for the uchiha to kill them in particular during the massacre.

Think about it, He obviously hates the senju/will of fire, but he also seems to hate the uchiha and took place in the massacre of them. 

Hearing the stories from Madara about eye giving just to give in to a peace while throwing away such a sacrifice, a sacrifice he himself had made in life, would be a sore spot considering they continued the practice of killing friends for MS and then killing each other to try and make it permanent.



Menacing Eyes said:


> You know, for someone who "died on the battlefield", you'd think Izuna would have some form of injury or something. I find it really odd that in his coffin panel he has none. In fact, he looks perfectly fine, at least from what we can see.
> 
> this


Because Kakashi looked all kinds of fucked up when he died against pein you know. And that was a battle. 
Chakra Exhaustion? Spirit rip out? drown? strangleation? There are countless of jutsu's that defeat you without showing any noticeable damage. Naruto rasengan'ing Deva Path and all the other paths for example.
this


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

Kagami could be resentful over a number of things

he never believe that Obito willingly gave his eyes to Kakashi, as he wasnt there to witness it... "youre words are worthless" quote comes to mind

or the Uchiha Clan didnt acknowledge Obito was a hero... hence the grudge

or Kagami resented that Kakashi got all the glory

or he wanted a coup and the Uchiha said "no, youre just mad"


----------



## Marsala (Aug 22, 2012)

I want Tobi to be (or at least to appear to be) Evil Future Sasuke, but that's almost certainly not going to happen.

So... Tobi is Obito being possessed by someone else. Orochimaru? Madara's chakra? Izuna? The Elder Son? He has Obito's eye, Obito's body (or head - the rest of his body may be Zetsu-ish goo), and Obito's memories, but he ain't Obito.

The main thing that sways me about Tobi having Obito's body (or face, at least) is Rin. The failed promise to protect her is an oddly unresolved plot point. So it really should be addressed. On the other hand, it would be an incredibly lame motivation for the main villain.


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

rajin said:
			
		

> HE clearly either IZUNA UCHIHA or UCHIHA MADARA OR simply TOBI


......

...I'm...... not exactly sure how to respond to this, but..... are you trolling?



			
				Mistshadow said:
			
		

> Never noticed, and if it's obito, he could easily be feeling the clenched anger as resentment towards the giving of eyes where at this point in time he regrets giving his eye away and is angry at just the idea of uchiha's taking away from siblings. Maybe this is the story that made him have such 'resentment' for the uchiha to kill them in particular during the massacre.
> 
> Think about it, He obviously hates the senju/will of fire, but he also seems to hate the uchiha and took place in the massacre of them.
> 
> Hearing the stories from Madara about eye giving just to give in to a peace while throwing away such a sacrifice, a sacrifice he himself had made in life, would be a sore spot considering they continued the practice of killing friends for MS and then killing each other to try and make it permanent.


Another good point.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Kagami could be resentful over a number of things
> 
> he never believe that Obito willingly gave his eyes to Kakashi, as he wasnt there to witness it... "youre words are worthless" quote comes to mind
> 
> ...



so why would kagami have to have been sneaking in and out of the village. And why would no one notice he was missing. How did he fake his death. Why would he fake his death.

If he was around, he wouldn't have to have been all sneaky PERIOD. 

OMG PLOT HOLE BY YOUR DEFINITION


----------



## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

no, he wouldnt have had to be sneaky

that doesnt relate to Kagami being resentful


----------



## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> Kagami could be resentful over a number of things
> 
> he never believe that Obito willingly gave his eyes to Kakashi, as he wasnt there to witness it... "youre words are worthless" quote comes to mind
> 
> ...


You're contradicting your own theory...

According to you, Kagami worked with Madara. But you say Obito's death was what made him change, but you also said that Madara couldn't have lived to the time of Obito's death, so why would Kagami have conspired with Madara back then if he didn't change until Obito's death, which, at which point, you think Madara had already died?!


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 22, 2012)

lol  this is funny the manga is called naruto and obito and tobi gets all the attention


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## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You're contradicting your own theory...
> 
> According to you, Kagami worked with Madara. But you say Obito's death was what made him change, but you also said that Madara couldn't have lived to the time of Obito's death, so why would Kagami have conspired with Madara back then if he didn't change until Obito's death, which, at which point, you think Madara had already died?!



duuuuuuuuuuude, its like a dream, within a dream, within another dream, on top of a lama, who hoards/herds sheep.


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> duuuuuuuuuuude, its like a dream, within a dream, within another dream, on top of a lama, who hoards/herds sheep.



that did not make sense dude


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## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You're contradicting your own theory...
> 
> According to you, Kagami worked with Madara. But you say Obito's death was what made him change, but you also said that Madara couldn't have lived to the time of Obito's death, so why would Kagami have conspired with Madara back then if he didn't change until Obito's death, which, at which point, you think Madara had already died?!



youre assuming Kagami is being resentful about the same thing





PositiveEmotions said:


> lol  this is funny the manga is called naruto and obito and tobi gets all the attention



cant wait for things to get back to normal again


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## Jeαnne (Aug 22, 2012)

i realized that it dont care about who tobi is at this point 

what is the use, he is already about to die


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## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

PositiveEmotions said:


> that did not make sense dude



That's the point. The Jacamo's kagami theory doesn't make any sense. It's full of contradictions and assumptions based on nothing but one line in one panel simply because his age 'seems' right.



jacamo said:


> youre assuming Kagami is being resentful about the same thing



WTF, you just said numerous times that the motive for Kagami was Obito's death because it was his son.


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## NW (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> youre assuming Kagami is being resentful about the same thing






Jeαnne said:


> i realized that it dont care about who tobi is at this point
> 
> what is the use, he is already about to die


Who cares if he's going to die soon? That still shouldn't affect the fun of his identity and learning his backstory and seeing the rest of the fight.



Mistshadow said:


> WTF, you just said numerous times that the motive for Kagami was Obito's death because it was his son.


He must have went into retirement and came back out when Obito died!


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> youre assuming Kagami is being resentful about the same thing
> 
> 
> 
> ...



it will man it well be patient



Mistshadow said:


> That's the point. The Jacamo's kagami theory doesn't make any sense. It's full of contradictions and assumptions based on nothing but one line in one panel simply because his age 'seems' right.
> 
> 
> 
> WTF, you just said numerous times that the motive for Kagami was Obito's death because it was his son.



kagami has no clue in being tobi ones so ever the hair pattern is way different from tobi so tobi being kagami is not possible but like i always say anyone can be tobi theres always a possibility but as for me i go with being obito only because of the facts and because tobi has lied many times before he tells half lies half truths


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## jacamo (Aug 22, 2012)

could have remained loyal to Madara at the same time



Jeαnne said:


> i realized that it dont care about who tobi is at this point
> 
> what is the use, he is already about to die


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> could have remained loyal to Madara at the same time



for a minute there i thought u quoted yourself lol


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 22, 2012)

PositiveEmotions said:


> kagami has no clue in being tobi ones so ever the hair pattern is way different from tobi so tobi being kagami is not possible but like i always say anyone can be tobi* theres always a possibility* but as for me i go with being obito only because of the facts and because tobi has lied many times before he tells half lies half truths



Well yeah, that is ALWAYS the basis of all my arguments.

Simply possiblities. What I rank them on however is the likeliness of said theories. Some theories have more going for it than others. I acknowledge all are possible.


----------



## Marsala (Aug 22, 2012)

jacamo said:


> not that it really matters, but... how did Kakashi know to name his MS jutsu by its proper name "Kamui"? the chronology is completely off here
> 
> is there a secret Uchiha database we dont know about? eh, whatever



When an Uchiha (or other Sharingan user) unlocks a Mangekyou Sharingan jutsu, they magically know what its name is as well as how to use it.


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## KevKev (Aug 22, 2012)

Kakashi thought of him being Obito BEFORE his mask was shattered. 
Kishi's gonna troll guys, you're all being lured.

Tobi's not Obito, it's clearly Evil Future Sasuke, Izuna, or MadZetsu clone who stole Obito's eye


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 22, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Well yeah, that is ALWAYS the basis of all my arguments.
> 
> Simply possiblities. What I rank them on however is the likeliness of said theories. Some theories have more going for it than others. I acknowledge all are possible.



yea kagami was just a side character but i think he died i am not sure tho.

yea and for those who say its izuna its impossible because izuna would be over a 100 years old and its to late to make theories on tobi because he will most likely to be reveal next week unless stupid kishi decides to go back to the sasuke story than i will be pissed off


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## ch1p (Aug 23, 2012)

*TOO OBVIOUS*


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## Gaawa-chan (Aug 23, 2012)

To everyone shrieking about how it is 'too obvious'... will you at least admit that these past few chapters have shown that the Tobito theorists do in fact have good reason to believe what they do?


----------



## ch1p (Aug 23, 2012)

I meant Kagami is too obvious.


----------



## Gaawa-chan (Aug 23, 2012)

Yeah, I didn't think so.


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## ch1p (Aug 23, 2012)

Ah, I kid, I kid. But I feel so giddy that it's going to be Obito, I can't help but poke fun at the 'too obvious!' statements. I apologise.


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## Marsala (Aug 23, 2012)

naijaboykev28 said:


> Kakashi thought of him being Obito BEFORE his mask was shattered.
> Kishi's gonna troll guys, you're all being lured.
> 
> Tobi's not Obito, it's clearly Evil Future Sasuke, Izuna, or MadZetsu clone who stole Obito's eye



I think the troll will be that someone is possessing Obito's body.


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## fidasx (Aug 23, 2012)

Next chapter kakashi show his face before tobi


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## enix04 (Aug 23, 2012)

I was always Tobi = Obito, but I'm going with Izuna. After thinking more about it and taking everything into consideration I don't see any other logical explanation besides a new character/experiment by Orochimaru to create a Hashirama/Madara hybrid clone thing. Why would any other Uchiha (besides Obito) need to transplant eyes? It would just all make more sense to me if Tobi was Izuna. The whole "My power, Uchiha Madara's power" thing (Madara got his power because of Izuna), the fact that even after resurrection Madara seems to know what Tobi is up to (Madara wouldn't even know of Obito's existence), and the fact that Izuna wasn't resurrected even though he was said to be on par with Madara. His missing eyes wouldn't be a problem since sharingan/rinnegan are in ample supply apparently, so there was literally no reason to not resurrect him if he was actually dead, that's more fire power. Also why would Tobi be so distraught by the sight of Madara's resurrected body if he wasn't someone close to Madara, like say, his own brother. Also this isn't much to go by but there are always people saying something about his name, Tobi, saying well that seems pretty close to Obito. Well we all know Tobirama was Hashirama's younger brother, and Izuna was Madara's younger brother, it would be interesting if Izuna took on the name of Tobi because of his place as the younger brother. Tobirama was also a skilled space-time ninjitsu user, as is Tobi, which could be another interesting parallel between the younger brothers, maybe Izuna admired Tobirama. Also if the whole thing about Izuna being "the name of a fox spirit in Japan" is true then it would kind of make it hard to not see some kind of significance to Tobi summoning the demon fox spirit to attack konoha.

Long story short, I'm locking my vote in on Tobi = Izuna.


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

izuna was stated dead in the manga and obito was never stated dead


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## NarutoSamaMan (Aug 23, 2012)

Final answer is Kagami not changing, we'll see in a week.


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## Easley (Aug 23, 2012)

I'm pretty sure there's going to be a surprise. It won't _just_ be Obito's face under the mask. That would be a boring reveal, imo. Maybe his left side is part Hashirama, or he implanted sharingans on his head (under the bandages) - at least it would shock Naruto too - plain old Obito is nothing special appearance wise.


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## Marsala (Aug 23, 2012)

Another anyone-but-Tobi candidate: Yamato. He knows Kakashi and Guy, he has Mokuton, his face and hair match, and he could be in two places at once with a Mokubunshin. His motive would be his horrible childhood in Root. He was sent to dispose of Obito's body but stole the eye for himself. And he knows Madara by, uh... well, the same way that Obito could know him! So there!

Of course this is ridiculous, but I do think that Yamato was another red herring for Tobi along with Danzou and some even more obscure candidates (TOBIrama?).


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## Mistshadow (Aug 23, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Of course this is ridiculous, but I do think that Yamato was another red herring for Tobi along with Danzou and some even more obscure candidates (TOBIrama



You can't try to use english writing as name pun hints. The japanese characters for Tobi and  Tobirama are completely different, the name puns only work when said characters (their letters) are similar or something along those lines.


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## Setsuna00 (Aug 23, 2012)

jeffmusta said:


> Again for those trying to say the "borrowed" quote is absolute evidence that Tobi = Obito, how do you reconcile the fact that in his other eye is a "borrowed" Rinnegan?
> 
> Not to mention that Obito GAVE his eye as a birthday present to Kakashi - gifts aren't usually borrowed.
> 
> That quote aside, other parts of the chapter seem to indicate that he is Obito regardless.



Yeah...no. And also, the whole principle of borrowing something means you plan to give it back right? Or that you should give it back, correct? How can Kakashi borrow something if the person you borrowed it from isn't alive to receive it? Yeah it's Obito.


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## Marsala (Aug 23, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> You can't try to use english writing as name pun hints. The japanese characters for Tobi and  Tobirama are completely different, the name puns only work when said characters (their letters) are similar or something along those lines.



No, a lot of Japanese puns are based on things that barely sound the same. See Ichigo from Bleach. His name is spelt with the kanji for "One Protect" but his name is frequenty punned with "Fifteen (One Five)" and "Strawberry".


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## insane111 (Aug 23, 2012)

I don't have any theory in particular, but this chapter made me 100% sure that it's not Obito. If everyone else wants to fall for such an obvios bait and switch, have at it


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 23, 2012)

insane111 said:


> I don't have any theory in particular, but this chapter made me 100% sure that it's not Obito. If everyone else wants to fall for such an obvios bait and switch, have at it



Obvious?

They have yet to even mention Obito's name.


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## Let'sFightingLove (Aug 23, 2012)

To those that claim it's too obvious, congratulations, you're a lot smarter than kishi anticipated. Bad news is he anticipated you to be 12-16 and japanese.


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## bach (Aug 23, 2012)

tobi can move at the speed of light with kamui ->
kamui dimension is without time while space is somehow linked with the "common" one ->
obito used kamui (tobi's version) to save himself from the rocks ->
madara somehow found/saved obito ->
obito send himself in kamui dimension to grow up ->
obito/tobi attacked konoha.


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## bobi966 (Aug 23, 2012)

*Who is Tobi --->Obito or an unheard Uchiha?*

I don't think that Tobi is Obito because Obito didn't know that there was Ten Tails and a Sage who created the shinobi world it must be some unheard uchiha that was in secret for very long time and about tobi mangekyou if he stole it from Obitos he might knowed that Obito Ms is Rare like Itachi Ms with the Susanoo that is pretty Rare in Uchiha so i remember tobi said that he was the one that gave Nagato the Rinnegan that means that Obito never had Rinnegan eyes because how can he know that i think Obito is not Tobi and Tobi is not Obito but a person who existen in all those wars.


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## Hokage (Aug 23, 2012)

Here are my questions to the Obito = Tobi people

a) During the Minato Gaiden, Obito is described as an average shinobi, nowhere near to Kakashi (let alone Minato) and with difficulties in awaken the sharingan. Now how could this guy improve so much, in such brief period of time to be able to go toe to toe against Minato + control the Kyubi?

b) Tobi must be at the same age of Kakashi and Gai. How come he's so wrinkled?
Link removed

I confess that Tobi's passionate discussion with Kakashi nearly got me. However after some serious thinking I concluded that there's another guy who willingly gave his eyes in a bid to see a better world (for himself), only to see that promise being broken. Maybe there's a reason why Tobi had decided not to resurrect Madara after all.....


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## Spyfire (Aug 23, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __


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## La buse (Aug 23, 2012)

naruto fans are so dumb....give them all hints pointing toward a character, they will choose a random character that we heard nothing about.

ITS FUCKING OBITO! GET OVER IT ALREADY!


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## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Aug 23, 2012)

I don't know at this point... it could either be Kagami Uchiha, or one of the first Madara followers Tobi alluded to when he told Sasuke the history of Madara. 
Another possibility, for how unlikely it may seem, is that he could be Hashirama and Mito's son. At least it could explain all his knowledge concerning jinkuuriki and could explain the fact he's not an actual name. Besides, the Kyuubi's been sealed all the time, so I don't see how the hell it did recognise Tobi when he attacked Konoha, unless that phrase - "You" - wasn't used to imply anything. Both that or Kishi's just forgotten that.


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## Scizor (Aug 23, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> "Red herring" is just another way of saying "I don't want to be wrong."



Elaborate.



jacamo said:


> the argument is that Kishi is making it TOO obvious... people were fapping about how Tobi could seriously be Obito over 10 chapters ago
> 
> aside from the plotholes argument, that is



Like with Minato.


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## bearzerger (Aug 23, 2012)

Scizor said:


> Like with Minato.



Remember when the majority of the forums believed Tobi was Madara? That was also "obvious" back then.


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## Mugivara (Aug 23, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> Remember when the majority of the forums believed Tobi was Madara? That was also "obvious" back then.




+

Also some people believed that Sasori was a beast, Yahiko had Rinnegan or etc...

Kishi loves using this method..


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## Skywalker (Aug 23, 2012)

He is going to be Future Sasuke.


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## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Aug 23, 2012)

I don't get the argument that Tobi being Obito is obvious as much as many other things that were revealed to be true, like Madara being the sixth coffin. 
Mabye you don't remember how many theories have been formulated to prove 6th coffin was either Rikudou Sannin or one of his sons, not to mention Izuna. It's true some people had seen right, but we have to keep in mind the greater part of the fans were convinced Tobi was Uchiha Madara.
And what about the Akatsuki Leader? Don't you remember how many people were sure he was the Fourth Hokage?
I'm just saying Kishimoto isn't so much of a bad writer like people say neither a predictable one. 
Given the number of speculations out there it's obvious someone has seen right about Tobi's identity and once it'll be revealed he'll go mad and say it was predictable, blatantly ignoring the number of people convinced he's Obito or Izuna or a Madara's clone, for example!


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## insane111 (Aug 23, 2012)

Let'sFightingLove said:


> To those that claim it's too obvious, congratulations, you're a lot smarter than kishi anticipated. Bad news is he anticipated you to be 12-16 and japanese.



Nope, that argument doesn't work any more after this chapter.


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## Mugivara (Aug 23, 2012)

What did this chapter chaged?


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## Closet Pervert (Aug 23, 2012)

It's still not Obito. There might or might not be some Obito in him like there was some Minato, Kushina, etc. in Naruto, but it's not like _mainly_ Obito.


Mugivara said:


> What did this chapter chaged?


True.


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## R00t_Decision (Aug 23, 2012)

I think 98% chance Tobi is Obito.



- Back to back chapters of side by side panels of Tobi and Kakashi 
- Same linked Kamui
- Tobi has the Rinnegan; Madara mentioned he awakened the Rinnegan near death. Tobi was near death.
- Tobi is not Madara, never was, the mask was simply to hide his identity. Madara was simply to strike fear and everything else was a ruse. Kabuto exposed Tobi with his Edo. 
- However, because Tobi and Madara both have the Rinnegan they are linked somehow with it, each knows of each other. 
- Zetsu cloning DNA uses to keep Tobi walking. The rock did heavy damage on Obitos body. Think Freeza still half alive.
- Naruto getting repeatedly hit by attacks that blow through trees with no problem
Kakashi contemplates here. "he can't be" and he thinks about the grave. A strong link that he is Obito. A lot of Kishi's manga's always give red herrings or allude to something for a bit before the obvious is given.  
- Naruto getting repeatedly hit by attacks that blow through trees with no problem
Guy is thinking the same thing Kakashi is thinking. Obviously Guy knows about Kakashi's dark past and he would pave relevance to the same thoughts as Kakashi.  Obviously guys knows that the Sharigan in Kakashi is from Obito.  This is another strong link.


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## NW (Aug 23, 2012)

Tobi is not Kagami. Kagami was in one panel the entire manga. Kishi wants to make the reveal of Tobi's identity shocking. Something interesting and awesome that would satisfy the fans. Kagami doesn't do that. Why not put more emphasis on his character? Why not bring him up more? 

Casual fans will not recognize Kagami. Hell, even us extreme fans won't recognize him. We only got a clear view of his face in one panel, and even that was from a distant angle and sloppily drawn. Do you really think Kishi would be so lazy drawing the face of such a major villain? People won't know who the fuck he is. How is that a shocking reveal? It's not. Kishi said in an interview at the beginning of the month when asked if Tobi's identity would be revealed soon "Indeed it will. In fact, it should be within the next few weeks. Everyone, please keep *predicting*."

PREDICTING. How can casual fans (who Kishi aims at) PREDICT Tobi being Kagami?! They don't even know who he is. That alone crushes the theory.

All this emphasis on who he is and all the suspense of his mask coming off and getting all excited to see his face, and he turns out to be this guy who we don't even recognize and remember, and who's face we've only seen once. Most people probably didn't even pay attention to his face!

I can't believe people take this theory seriously. He's not Kagami, people. Let it go.

You say, "Hurr durr, he has no plotholes!", well first of all, who cares? You could say any random character has no plotholes. The reason for that is that they HAVE NO PLOT. You'd think this would be common sense...




jacamo said:


> could have remained loyal to Madara at the same time


And now you're just making up "fanfictions" to explain the plotholes.



NarutoSamaMan said:


> Final answer is Kagami not changing, we'll see in a week.


I can't believe you're betting on a one panel random irrelevant character.



Easley said:


> I'm pretty sure there's going to be a surprise. It won't _just_ be Obito's face under the mask. That would be a boring reveal, imo. Maybe his left side is part Hashirama, or he implanted sharingans on his head (under the bandages) - at least it would shock Naruto too - plain old Obito is nothing special appearance wise.


Having the whole left side of his face be full of scars would be pretty exciting.



Marsala said:


> Another anyone-but-Tobi candidate: Yamato. He knows Kakashi and Guy, he has Mokuton, his face and hair match, and he could be in two places at once with a Mokubunshin. His motive would be his horrible childhood in Root. He was sent to dispose of Obito's body but stole the eye for himself. And he knows Madara by, uh... well, the same way that Obito could know him! So there!
> 
> Of course this is ridiculous, but I do think that Yamato was another red herring for Tobi along with Danzou and some even more obscure candidates (TOBIrama?).


........


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## jacamo (Aug 23, 2012)

Scizor said:


> Like with Minato.



true..... but this is 100 times more obvious than that


the evidence is clearly stacked in Obito's favour right now, but im sticking to what i predicted till the end.... Tobi = Obito's father = Uchiha Kagami



bearzerger said:


> Remember when the majority of the forums believed Tobi was Madara? That was also "obvious" back then.



lol... the majority of people really did think Tobi = Madara, despite people like me saying "wake up! Kabuto's Edo Tensei blackmail was too suspect "



Mugivara said:


> What did this chapter chaged?



last chapter didnt do much apart from hype... theoretically, plenty of Uchiha would have awakened Jikukan Ido with their MS during their illustrious past

this chapter revealed his MS design, which confirms that Tobi is either Obito himself or is at the very least directly related to Obito


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## NW (Aug 23, 2012)

jacamo said:
			
		

> this chapter revealed his MS design, which confirms that Tobi is either Obito himself or is at the very least directly related to Obito


No, it confirms that he is either Obito himself or someone who has Obito's eye. That is confirmed to be Obito's eye. Being related to someone doesn't mean you share the same MS design. If he actually did have the eye from being related and it somehow magically had the same design, it still doesn't explain why he only has one.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Aug 23, 2012)

While I personally want him to be Obito, I have this gut feeling he's either Izuna or even the Elder son of Rikudou Sennin....

He has too many connections with the REAL Madara to be overlooked. I find it mighty strange that Tobi and Madara have apparently been plotting this Moon's Eye Plan since even before the latter's death.

Then when Tobi is among the 5 Kage at the conference. He makes this statement:
*Tobi*  - "_I like to stockpile good eyes_.."

Why would he say that?
Perhaps because he had none of his own since Madara had taken his for his own EMS?

Another issue is that he seems to be veeeeery knowledgable of Mangekyou Sharingan technqiues, and even advanced sealing technqiues such as Danzou's 4 Symbols Reverse Seal. 

He also has a great deal of information on Rikudou Sennin himself. I doubt Rikudou Sennin's entire life story is inscribed on the Uchiha Tablet, so where could he acquire *that*  much info about it from?

I dunno.....maybe I'm looking too far into it.


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## jacamo (Aug 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> or someone who has Obito's eye



or that....


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## Mugivara (Aug 23, 2012)

jacamo said:


> last chapter didnt do much apart from hype... theoretically, plenty of Uchiha would have awakened Jikukan Ido with their MS during their illustrious past
> 
> this chapter revealed his MS design, which confirms that Tobi is either Obito himself or is at the very least directly related to Obito



No, it was previous chapter which revealed Tobi with MS


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## Noctis Dragneel (Aug 23, 2012)

Hokage said:


> Here are my questions to the Obito = Tobi people
> 
> a) During the Minato Gaiden, Obito is described as an average shinobi, nowhere near to Kakashi (let alone Minato) and with difficulties in awaken the sharingan. Now how could this guy improve so much, in such brief period of time to be able to go toe to toe against Minato + control the Kyubi?
> 
> ...



Those are actually quite easy to explain.

a) The strongest mangekyo sharingan belongs to Obito's eyes (this we know). Since he only uses Kamui in a battle it's a no brainer why he was toe to toe with Minato regardless of him being Obito or someone else.

b)There is a reason why he has wrinkles (or scars) on his right side and not on his left. It's probably Zetsu goo which was used to repair his damaged body. This actually goes in favor of the Tobi=Obito theory.


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## Hexa (Aug 23, 2012)

This chapter did a couple things for the whole Tobito idea.  Number 1, it confirmed that Kakashi and Guy are Tobito believers.  Number 2, Tobi called Kakashi's Kamui a "borrowed power" in contrast to his "true" Kamui.


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## insane111 (Aug 23, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> What did this chapter chaged?



Did you read what I was replying to?

He was trying to counter the argument that revealing Tobi as Obito at this point would be redundant and anticlimactic. So he said the hints are too vague for the average reader to pick up on. That may have been the case last chapter, but this chapter showed his MS design.


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## Kusa (Aug 23, 2012)

Iruka


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## Algol (Aug 23, 2012)

Hokage said:


> Here are my questions to the Obito = Tobi people
> 
> a) During the Minato Gaiden, Obito is described as an average shinobi, nowhere near to Kakashi (let alone Minato) and with difficulties in awaken the sharingan. Now how could this guy improve so much, in such brief period of time to be able to go toe to toe against Minato + control the Kyubi?
> 
> ...



a) tobi's pocket dimension is a hyperbolic time chamber, he grew up and trained in there before fighting minato. and/or madara trained him. also, we now kno he had MS when he fought minato. kishi has shown that gaining MS alone is just a big power boost/tool in general

b) we've only seen his wrinkled face on his right side, they could be a combo of that and scars. his face was rock crushed, and refer to "a"

it can be that simple if kishi wants it to be


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## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Aug 23, 2012)

Hexa said:


> This chapter did a couple things for the whole Tobito idea.  Number 1, it confirmed that Kakashi and Guy are Tobito believers.  Number 2, Tobi called Kakashi's Kamui a "borrowed power" in contrast to his "true" Kamui.



It may still be a tactical lie to discourage Kakashi.
Also, the fact Kakashi and Gai are Tobito believers in my opinion would make the "Tobi = Obito" option too obvious and it wouldn't be such a great shock for them as it would have been a sudden revelation.


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## Vice (Aug 23, 2012)

Hokage said:


> Here are my questions to the Obito = Tobi people
> 
> a) During the Minato Gaiden, Obito is described as an average shinobi, nowhere near to Kakashi (let alone Minato) and with difficulties in awaken the sharingan. Now how could this guy improve so much, in such brief period of time to be able to go toe to toe against Minato + control the Kyubi?



In the beginning of the manga Naruto was a joke and a failure. Look at him now.



> b) Tobi must be at the same age of Kakashi and Gai. How come he's so wrinkled?
> Link removed



Probably the fact that he had his face smashed in by boulders has something to do with it.



> I confess that Tobi's passionate discussion with Kakashi nearly got me.



Not only that, but bringing specific parts of his past and living with regrets, etc...


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## ThunderRaikage (Aug 23, 2012)

i believe that tobi is izuna.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 23, 2012)

What Kishi is doing is a bit of last minute foreshadowing, so the revelation doesn't seem completely random.

If Tobi turned out to be Obito without any of this hinting, everybody would flip their shit at this seemingly coming out of nowhere.

Now at least readers have their chance to perceive the outcome.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 23, 2012)

ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE said:


> *It may still be a tactical lie to discourage Kakashi.*
> Also, the fact Kakashi and Gai are Tobito believers in my opinion would make the "Tobi = Obito" option too obvious and it wouldn't be such a great shock for them as it would have been a sudden revelation.



sounds like someone is grasping at straws and doing whatever it takes to refuse to accept that obito is the most likely


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

why do you guys not accept that tobi is more likely to be obito


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## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Aug 23, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> sounds like someone is grasping at straws and doing whatever it takes to refuse to accept that obito is the most likely



I'm not truly an oppositor of that theory, but I believe it to be illogical. 
Maybe Tobi is really Obito, but there would be too manu contradictions, so unless Kishi doesn't find a really good answer to all the questions which are unsolved as of yet I believe the Tobito theory to be still unlikely.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 23, 2012)

Scizor said:


> Elaborate.



The people who assert that recent hints are in fact "red herrings" do so primarily because they _need_ them to be, because if they aren't, then that means they are wrong, and would have to admit that.


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## bobi966 (Aug 23, 2012)

I think that Tobi Ms is rare just like Itachi ms that had susanoo but obito never knew Rekidou Sennin and even the Rinnegan Because Tobi said that He had Rinnegan eyes and gave them to Nagato that is what he said to Konan and how Obito will have those eyes and if he really did have them why he didn't inplant them i don't think that he is Obito he also knew the story about the two brothers and sons of the sage of the six paths even the ten tails how can Obito know that !


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## NW (Aug 23, 2012)

There's pretty much no way Tobi can be anyone else but Obito. 

He said Kakashi would never beat him with a *borrowed* power that he could only use a few times, inisting that *his* power wasn't borrowed, and then he went on to say "*I'll* show you the *real* Kamui!", insisting that *he* was where *both* eyes *originated* from.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 23, 2012)

ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE said:


> I'm not truly an oppositor of that theory, but I believe it to be illogical.
> Maybe Tobi is really Obito, but there would be too manu contradictions, so unless Kishi doesn't find a really good answer to all the questions which are unsolved as of yet I believe the Tobito theory to be still unlikely.



Every theory at this point has 'contradictions'. Anyone ASIDE from Obito would have the contradiction of having so much words to say to Kakashi personally and have such a connection of lines with him.
Then please by all means, find me a contradiction in my theory I made about a month ago, and I'll come up with a good counter:

I will start off at the VOTE Fight where we know a lot of this begins.

A: EMS Madara fights Hashirama at the VOTE, Hashirama wrestles the kyuubi away from Madara (as they both can control bijus) and defeats Madara. Madara managed to steal some flesh from Hashirama during this fight and people believed him to die somehow. Madara in reality LIVES.
Itachi had no idea Tobi knew about him

B: Sometime later Madara grafts aspects of Hashirama's flesh to his chest to gain mokuton. Madara is NOT in his prime anymore at this point. He creates that Hashirama clone that we have seen underground, somehow obtains gedou mazou, and zetsu comes into existence. All experiments done by Madara.
Itachi had no idea Tobi knew about him

*: Madara spends some time in the hidden mist and starts the bloody mist. Its possible bloody mist began without the Uchiha presence and was simply continued by Tobi.*

C: Madara awakens the rinnegan sometime during the 2nd Ninja war, he is old at this point.
Tobi may have said "I Gave him the Rinnegan" but he was under the guise of Madara. He also said "I fought Hashirama" and "People believe I died"
When he says Shortly before his death doesn't give an exact time, when you are old, you perceive a lot of time as small just as when you're young you perceive a little time as long. Its all about perception,Kishi was careful not to give any exact numbers so we can't be precise. He discovers the Uzumaki child Nagato and implants his eyes into him secretly. Uzumaki's have great chakra and the Rinnegan has the ability to make a regular civilian kill trained chuunin/jounin ninjas so he knew it would be safe.
Itachi had no idea Tobi knew about him

Keep in mind Kabuto resurrected Madara so that he would have all the benefits of his Old age, (Rinnegan, Hashirama Grafting), along with the physicality of his Prime, He's a 'special' edo.

*Implants some regular sharingans or simply goes blind for the remainder of his life. Not impossible Izuna demonstrated to live for some time without eyes. Maybe he lived as a sensor? He seems aptly able to locate and hunt the Nine Tails Jinchuuriki despite being far away from him at the moment.*

D: 3rd Ninja war takes place. Obito, Kakashi, and Rin are stuck in the rockslide. Obito has demonstrated himself to be a very capable ninja who although took a long time to awaken his 2 tomoe sharingan, was still able to advance to chuunin rank without it. When awoken demonstrated to be on the same level as the jounin Kakashi. Student of the 4th Hokage and an Uchiha, look at the capabilities Kakashi's eye has achieved, the feats, and the fame he got from it, don't underestimate his potential. Obito donates his left eye to Kakashi. As the rockslide gives in, we never actually see him die. A few possibilities, either Madara could have saved Obito himself, Madara could have had Zetsu save him being 'the land itself', or Obito could have gone through a catalytic freak incident that caused him to s/t teleport to an unkown area.

E: Obito, due to the traumatic incident of almost dying, having much of his body DAMAGED beyond CONVENTIONAL repair, and learning Rin's fate was death, possibly feeling abandoned, and hating war, his will of hatred grew as he began like Naruto and became what he is now as tobi, Its possible for such a change as In Itachi's words. Personality change is possible.
Itachi had no idea Tobi knew about him
Itachi had no idea Tobi knew about him
Itachi had no idea Tobi knew about him
And he forgot wanting this new world shouldering everything on himself with the Eien Mugen Tsukuyomi.

F: Madara takes Obito under his wing for 2 years until the Kyuubi attack. His body is repaired by Zetsu Goo. We know its at least partially composed of Zetsu body parts considering how he replaces damages, how it comes from a plant, and his first introduction as tobi shows his body isn't normal and is damaged. During which time. With Zetsu and his own Sharingan, he can teach Obito that only Madara knows so that people would be able to believe him with the guise. Obito will have the memories as if he himself was watching everything play out, We already know Zetsu has this capability as he 'records' things such as the itachi sasuke fight.
Obito also awakens MS which provides him with the Intangibilitys+Teleportation S/T jutsu. They ARE related together since he can only do ONE while the other isn't ACTIVE. The Eye relates to Kakashi's Kamui MS and we have never seen a close up of Tobi's eye when he uses the jutsu's on top of the fact that MS only has to be active for split seconds as we know from Itachi's first appearance.
Once mastering his MS and being trained by a Powerful character like Madara, he can fight very powerfully. On top of learning how to tame the kyuubi from the previous owner makes complete sense. The abilty of the MS is to control the kyuubi as the Databook and Manga states countless times. Madara dies at some point during this time and expects Tobi to spur Nagato to resurrect him when he grows up and masters his eyes.

G: Kyuubi attack takes place. tobi tames kyuubi, fights Minato his old teacher, loses, and runs away. Minato guesses Madara because he is the only unaccounted Uchiha he can think of with such power and knowledge, but dismisses because he is 'long dead', which tobi says 'i wouldn't be so sure of that' because he didn't die a long time ago, but in reality very recently. And Minato never guesses Obito because Minato was pretty close to the incident when he 'died' so believed him accounted for.

H: Tobi goes on to the Hidden Mist village and controls Yagura. The bloody mist is already still taking place, he keeps it going. Kisame witnesses him as an older teen and learns of his plan for a 'world without lies'. He NEVER confirms him as madara, but he does call him that to go along with it. The reason he refused to allow aoba to see the face is because its important. Aoba is about Kakashi and Gai age so he knows the face of Obito and would spoil the reveal.
Itachi had no idea Tobi knew about him
Itachi had no idea Tobi knew about him
We also know this guy is the same as the guy that Itachi talked to for the massacre going by hair and mask along with Kisame confirming when he saw his face after meeting up again with Itachi's death.
Itachi had no idea Tobi knew about him
Itachi had no idea Tobi knew about him

I: As some of the links above point to, Itachi then talks to Tobi who he believes is Madara because of the knowledge he possesses which he learned from Madara himself. They massacre the Uchiha clan as the deal dictates.

J: Now we have the current time slot with Tobi and Madara both 'around'


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> [sp]Every theory at this point has 'contradictions'. Anyone ASIDE from Obito would have the contradiction of having so much words to say to Kakashi personally and have such a connection of lines with him.
> Then please by all means, find me a contradiction in my theory I made about a month ago, and I'll come up with a good counter:
> 
> I will start off at the VOTE Fight where we know a lot of this begins.
> ...



nice signature .

on topic: i think kakashi has a feeling that its obito but ppl here refuse to believe so us ppl who have an open minded know it could possibly be obito


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 23, 2012)

I'm aware, I'm very openminded, what IRKS me is the people who try to go, "durrrrrrrr I've proven that it is 100% IMPOSSIBLE to be Obito dude, all your 'evidence' that supports Obito is because its his dad Kagami, durrrr, you base your stuff off of assumptions, while I do it on FACTS, derpydoo"


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## NW (Aug 23, 2012)

Mistshadow said:
			
		

> I'm aware, I'm very openminded, what IRKS me is the people who try to go, "durrrrrrrr I've proven that it is 100% IMPOSSIBLE to be Obito dude, all your 'evidence' that supports Obito is because its his dad Kagami, durrrr, you base your stuff off of assumptions, while I do it on FACTS, derpydoo"


The sad part is that's literally their whole argument.


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## Gus90 (Aug 23, 2012)

*TOBI COULD BE SHISUI UCHIHA!!!*

Link removed we see in this panel kakashi thinking about a grave and spelling shi..until he is interrupted by gai yelling his name. Could this be shisui's grave? Think about it..what if shisui gave his left eye too itachi and he replaced it with obito's eye he found dead. shisui could also help itachi in the uchiha massacre and he was always a pacifist and hated the shinobi world of war..which also points to tobi's final plan that is to achieve eternal peace!!!! share your views on this plz..


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I'm aware, I'm very openminded, what IRKS me is the people who try to go, "durrrrrrrr I've proven that it is 100% IMPOSSIBLE to be Obito dude, all your 'evidence' that supports Obito is because its his dad Kagami, durrrr, you base your stuff off of assumptions, while I do it on FACTS, derpydoo"



i dont think the manga ever stated who obito's dad is unless im wrong


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## Revolution (Aug 23, 2012)

Plus his body was never recovered.  However, he was the same age as Itachi during the death of Kushina and Minato.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 23, 2012)

no


















he can not


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## Vice (Aug 23, 2012)

Guy was calling Kakashi's name, Kakashi was so lost in thought that all he heard was the "shi" part.


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## NW (Aug 23, 2012)

PositiveEmotions said:
			
		

> i dont think the manga ever stated who obito's dad is unless im wrong


You're right. it's just that the Kagami theorists say we shouldn't use assumptions then they just make the huge assumption that Kagami is Obito's father. Their logic hurts my brain.


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> You're right. it's just that the Kagami theorists say we shouldn't use assumptions then they just make the huge assumption that Kagami is Obito's father. Their logic hurts my brain.



i hope kishi explains whos his parents are


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 23, 2012)

I don't think Obito's parentage is really relevant.

The only thing I could see is Shisui being a brother of his.

Also did this thread get moved out of Telegrams for a bit or was that just me hallucinating?


----------



## NW (Aug 23, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:
			
		

> I don't think Obito's parentage is really relevant.
> 
> The only thing I could see is Shisui being a brother of his.


This.



			
				First Tsurugi said:
			
		

> Also did this thread get moved out of Telegrams for a bit or was that just me hallucinating?


I noticed that too...


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## Mistshadow (Aug 23, 2012)

PositiveEmotions said:


> i dont think the manga ever stated who obito's dad is unless im wrong



lol it hasn't. But hey, it fits the timeline, so its based on a FACT XD. Buddy let me tell you now, go through the old official identity of tobi thread thats on like the 3rd page in library, you will have a blast. Especially seeing the comments by Thebaxman and Jacamo.

It's long but you will laugh and enjoy it and be shocked.

Or just fread from page 72 and up.

edit: It did, a mod made a mistake, I told Dragonus to fix it


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## bobi966 (Aug 23, 2012)

Tobi no obito obito dont know sage of six paths he dont know rinnegan he dont know the story of the bros of sage and dont know the ten tails Tobi is some other uchiha who stole obito eye and get it but i think that the right side the arm that fell when he fought danzo dogs was white guuu not blood or something that arm was put by zetsu so it might be obito body but a different person who controll obito body maybe Kagami Uchiha or Izuna Uchiha who knows uchiha clan is full of mysteries twisted different ms abillities rare ms like itachi with susano is pretty rare and rare ms that obito had to teleport or materialise!


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## Black Mirror (Aug 23, 2012)

Why not adding a poll?


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## Mistshadow (Aug 23, 2012)

bobi966 said:


> .
> .



All I can say is.............................What?


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## bobi966 (Aug 23, 2012)

Tobi might have obito body but he is different person then obito who controll obito body and found obito body and that is why he was scared of itachi because itachi can give him genjutsu and die !


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> lol it hasn't. But hey, it fits the timeline, so its based on a FACT XD. Buddy let me tell you now, go through the old official identity of tobi thread thats on like the 3rd page in library, you will have a blast. Especially seeing the comments by Thebaxman and Jacamo.
> 
> It's long but you will laugh and enjoy it and be shocked.
> 
> ...



what was the mistake that the mod made?


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 23, 2012)

So Tobi being obito is crazy.


But THAT makes sense? Doesn't it seem a little, let me rephrase that, a shit ton convoluted?

Edit: moving thread to library on accident.


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## rob1out (Aug 23, 2012)

at this moment i think i have to agree that tobi is obito.  no other characters will make sense unless its an unknown uchiha


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

kishi better not f u c k i n g troll us in the next chapter


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 23, 2012)

PositiveEmotions said:


> kishi better not f u c k i n g troll us in the next chapter



The only thing I'm worried about is that he'll cut to somewhere else just to delay revealing Tobi's identity.


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> The only thing I'm worried about is that he'll cut to somewhere else just to delay revealing Tobi's identity.



kishi said tobi's identity would be reveal this month and i am hoping his not lying because if he is ima rape his wife in the a$$


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## Mugivara (Aug 23, 2012)

@Mistshadow

Please don't say "when you get older your time perception change" thing anymore It's 1526 th times...


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

@mugivara um dude when people get older of course time changes


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## Snowder (Aug 23, 2012)

Hi, new guy here ^^

Dunno if this is the right place for theories, but I wanted to state mine before next week. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm totally not (:
I haven't read many theories before so I don't know if this has been stated before -I guess it has, though.

We know that it has to be the Sharingan of Obito and probably even his body. Maybe Madara has saved him with the help of Zetsu. Spending time with Madara changed Obitos sight of things and the day Madara died he took his place to let his name live on ("The Power of a Name") for future plans. The revived Madara said something like "I was brought back. So it must be that guy." He wouldn't call his brother "guy", but call him by name. So I don't think Tobi is Izuna.
Tobi has two voice actors. Some may think it's because of two personalities -the one of Obito and someone elses. Tobi changed his voice the moment he declared himself as Madara. On pupose, of course. Changing or imitating a voice seems to be no prob for a shinobi. Think about Orochimaru, Sasori in puppet form and human-like form and at least Yamato imitating Sasoris voice on the bridge meeting Kabuto.
Maybe I've overseen something important but I think this theory is plausible.

Don't hate me if you have another opionion :b

My second bet would be the Sages older son. Without explanation, just to have a second option ^^

I'm super curious about next week (:

[sp][/sp]


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## Mistshadow (Aug 23, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> @Mistshadow
> 
> Please don't say "when you get older your time perception change" thing anymore It's 1526 th times...



Okay then Since your obviously too young to realize perspectice determines a lot, how about this.
There's ABOUT a 10 year gap between the 2nd and 3rd shinobi world wars. Give or take a couple years.
Madara thinks in the long run, a plan 80 or so years in the making for the moons eye infinite tsukuyomi. Planned since vote.
So 10 years can be considered short when looking towards a LONG road ahead. Like a retirement fund. 10 years is barely a scratch.


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## Snowder (Aug 23, 2012)

Snowder said:


> Maybe I've overseen something important



Yup, I did ^^
A variable would be that Obito used his jutsu the moment he would've died as a reaction in a near death situation.
Tobi stated he got that eye at the Kannabi Bridge. In this case I don't think he meant getting the eye by taking it, but by activating/awakening it.
He then met Madara and there continues my theory~


----------



## Scizor (Aug 23, 2012)

bearzerger said:


> Remember when the majority of the forums believed Tobi was Madara? That was also "obvious" back then.



One(/a few) deviation(s) from a 'writing style' doesn't change a 'writing style'.



First Tsurugi said:


> What Kishi is doing is a bit of last minute foreshadowing, so the revelation doesn't seem completely random.
> 
> If Tobi turned out to be Obito without any of this hinting, everybody would flip their shit at this seemingly coming out of nowhere.
> 
> Now at least readers have their chance to perceive the outcome.



I agree with this.

But we just can't rule out the (arguably small) possibility that the recent hints are red herrings.

With that said: I do think Tobi is Obito (mainly because of the hints the recent chapters contained).


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 23, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Okay then Since your obviously too young to realize perspectice determines a lot, how about this.
> There's ABOUT a 10 year gap between the 2nd and 3rd shinobi world wars. Give or take a couple years.
> Madara thinks in the long run, a plan 80 or so years in the making for the moons eye infinite tsukuyomi. Planned since vote.
> So 10 years can be considered short when looking towards a LONG road ahead. Like a retirement fund. 10 years is barely a scratch.



Yes I'm young and proud of it

So, you're old?

Let me ask you some thing:

In your assumption, Madara gives his Rinnegan's to Nagato when he was 8-9 years old in 2nd wolrld war...

Why is that?

How can you erase 8-9 years from history so easily? Why didn't he give his eyes when Nagato was a baby? 

You have only a body seems like Obito and you fill all the blanks in your theory with assumptions. Of course, you can use assupmtions, it's normal but there have to be a limit on your assumtions.

Also let me explain you something:

Bloody mist is a close past, it happened when Yagura was being controlled. Also, as Mizukage stated, Danzo could be the one who controlled Yagura. I don't mean here Tobi is Danzo. I mean that this things happened when Danzo had Shishui's eyes.

Madara can't be the one who started Bloody mist.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 23, 2012)

Snowder said:


> Yup, I did ^^
> A variable would be that Obito used his jutsu the moment he would've died as a reaction in a near death situation.
> Tobi stated he got that* eye at the Kannabi Bridge.* In this case I don't think he meant getting the eye by taking it, but by activating/awakening it.
> He then met Madara and there continues my theory~



Well to add on, he said he got it at the BATTLE of Kannabi Bridge, meaning he got it at that exact time too. So unless someone was stalking him the whole time ready for him to die, then yes it would much more sense for it to be obito himself awakening it


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## Addy (Aug 23, 2012)

fuck it, i will just say it. tobi is obito. forums rage. the chapter will have flashbacks. and the next 2 after it. then kakashi and naruto TNJ obito. then the he is TNJd only for juubi to stomp him and take over the battle.


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

i want tobi/obito to succeed with the moon eye plan


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## Ninja Genius (Aug 23, 2012)

At this point in the story I'm pretty sure it's obvious that Tobi is Menma.


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## 8 (Aug 23, 2012)

in a "road to ninja" movie preview, underneath tobi's mask was obito's face, but then underneath obito's face was shisui's face. something like that. i'm not even sure if i got it right. in the end that whole part was scratched.

i wonder if kishi is going that way in the actual manga. pretend its obito now, but then reveal it as shisui later.

anyway. i'm still betting on ramen guy. second guess would be shisui, because of that movie preview. then obito.


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 23, 2012)

^Link for this? Sounds interesting.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 23, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Yes I'm young and proud of it
> 
> So, you're old?



I'm 21, I'm just educated enough to know about perspectives, Looking at one side of an argument leads to making errors in judgements. 




> Let me ask you some thing:
> 
> In your assumption, Madara gives his Rinnegan's to Nagato when he was 8-9 years old in 2nd wolrld war...
> 
> ...



Who says that Nagato got the rinnegan as he was  a baby, and who says he got the rinnegan at 8-9? We don't know how it works. We have ZERO information to base it off. The only thing we know is it ACTIVATED when Nagato was under Jiraiya. We have no idea what happened when those ninja killed his parents, we assume Nagato killed them with his Rinnegan activation, but it zoomed away outside the house in the story. Maybe Madara killed them without Nagato realizing it? Who knows, the criteria and circumstances for how and when Nagato got the Rinnegan is unknown. Your asking an impossible to ask question when you say WHY. Why would he put it in Nagato to begin with. Why was he in the Rain country to begin with? Exactly............




> You have only a body seems like Obito and you fill all the blanks in your theory with assumptions. Of course, you can use assupmtions, it's normal but there have to be a limit on your assumtions.



And what determines that limit? There's a limit for every single identity on. Who gets to decide that limit? All we can do is fill in the holes with OUR assumptions, because if we can fill it in, we know its possible, and if we are insanely lucky, kishi fills it in with the same ideas. But if not, no big deal, because either way something happened.




> Also let me explain you something:
> 
> Bloody mist is a close past, it happened when Yagura was being controlled. Also, as Mizukage stated, Danzo could be the one who controlled Yagura. I don't mean here Tobi is Danzo. I mean that this things happened when Danzo had Shishui's eyes.
> 
> Madara can't be the one who started Bloody mist.



Bloody Mist details are UNKNOWN. We DONT KNOW the circumstances. Believing Yagura started the bloody Mist era is an assumption. It easily could have been started by the 3rd Mizukage. Or it could have been started by Yagura himself. We know the Academy graduation of killing each other ended when Zabuza killed all the students despite being a kid not even enrolled. But stopping that practice didn't end the bloody Mist era, look at Haku, his mom was killed by his dad because of the bloody hate against bloodline limits that was another aspect from the bloody mist era.
The ONLY Scene we see of Yagura being controlled by someone else is AFTER the kyuubi incident when 'Tobi' Already exists. Convenient? We NEVER see a scene of Tobi existing until the kyuubi incident. 
How do we know this was after kyuubi attack? Look at Kisame's age. He's 32, and he looked to be apprixmately 18 AT LEAST or older in that flashback. Or look at Ibiki's age, that works better. He's 31 and he looks EXACTLY the same in that flashback.
So basing on the bloody mist being Tobi/Madara the whole time is an assumption. Yagura became Mizukage on his own somehow. And its a ninja ninja world. Just being a 'good guy' doesn't mean you wouldn't do such things.



8 said:


> in a "road to ninja" *movie preview, underneath tobi's mask was obito's face, but then underneath obito's face was shisui's face*. something like that. i'm not even sure if i got it right. in the end that whole part was scratched.
> 
> i wonder if kishi is going that way in the actual manga. pretend its obito now, but then reveal it as shisui later.
> 
> anyway. i'm still betting on ramen guy. second guess would be shisui, because of that movie preview. then obito.


 
Not true, completely false


----------



## 8 (Aug 23, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> ^Link for this? Sounds interesting.


its buried in the road to ninja thread. first one probably. you'll have to go trough a big pile of crap to find it.


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 23, 2012)

In the script for the Road to Ninja movie it implied that Tobi was Obito, however, there is some question as to whether this was a translation error.

In the end Tobi's identity was not revealed in the movie.

Now, there was a second masked character, who turned out to be the Naruto of that universe named Menma or something.

In the script, it said that this character was unmasked, and appeared to be Shisui, but this was likely a case of mistaken appearance, where the viewer mistook Menma's appearance for Shisui.

None of this has any real bearing on the manga.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 23, 2012)

You might want to spoiler that First Tsurugi, I already knew that, but there are people here who want to see movie and don't want to know that yet


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## 8 (Aug 23, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> ...


wow. so in the end it turned out the "spoiler provider" mistook menma for shisui? i wasn't around when that was cleared up =/. that obito part just seemed too fishy, especially after the manga indeed goes the obito route. that script was so full of unintentional mindfuck. 

oh well. shisui would be boring anyway. he has no real connection to any of the characters around.


----------



## Doge (Aug 23, 2012)

It's Dosu...his faked death at Gaara's hands was the perfect way to disappear and take over Akatsuki.


----------



## R00t_Decision (Aug 23, 2012)

R00t_Decision said:


> I think 98% chance Tobi is Obito.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Hexa said:


> This chapter did a couple things for the whole Tobito idea.  Number 1, it confirmed that Kakashi and Guy are Tobito believers.  Number 2, Tobi called Kakashi's Kamui a "borrowed power" in contrast to his "true" Kamui.





Addy said:


> fuck it, i will just say it. tobi is obito. forums rage. the chapter will have flashbacks. and the next 2 after it. then kakashi and naruto TNJ obito. then the he is TNJd only for juubi to stomp him and take over the battle.



The timeline makes no sense though.


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

ok what i wanna know is that where did those whole kagami being obito's father?


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 23, 2012)

PositiveEmotions said:


> ok what i wanna know is that where did those whole kagami being obito's father?



Complete fanon made by desperate Kagami theorists.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 23, 2012)

To anyone left who is so close minded and refuse to use the search or read at least a few pages before posting on the timeline, I'm ficking done explaining it. You see a timeline problem because you want to, and refuse to see how it is possible that kishi made it vague so you would doubt it.


----------



## mayumi (Aug 23, 2012)

tobi is obviously black haired kakashi from parallel universe :ho


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Complete fanon made by desperate Kagami theorists.



it does not make sense to me on how kagami could be his father i mean the only think i could think of them being father and son is the hair their a bit the same accept kagami's hair is a bit wavy


----------



## First Tsurugi (Aug 23, 2012)

PositiveEmotions said:


> it does not make sense to me on how kagami could be his father i mean the only think i could think of them being father and son is the hair their a bit the same accept kagami's hair is a bit wavy



It is their way of attempting to make Kagami relevant.

At first it was to explain why he'd have similar powers to Kakashi, but that went out the window when it turned out Tobi was literally using Obito's eye.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 23, 2012)

PositiveEmotions said:


> it does not make sense to me on how kagami could be his father i mean the only think i could think of them being father and son is the hair their a bit the same accept kagami's hair is a bit wavy



But hey, I'm crazy and grasping at straws with assumptions for making explanations on how Tobi is Obito 


First Tsurugi said:


> It is their way of attempting to make Kagami relevant.
> 
> At first it was to explain why he'd have similar powers to Kakashi, but that went out the window when it turned out Tobi was literally using Obito's eye.



Oyaaaa, I totally forgot that until the other week, they were coping out saying the eye was because it was Obito's father who used it as Kagami, and it wasn't Obito's eye to begin with. All because of family relations for similar powers.


----------



## NW (Aug 23, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> You have only a body seems like Obito and you fill all the blanks in your theory with assumptions. Of course, you can use assupmtions, it's normal but there have to be a limit on your assumtions.


It looks like you're the one making assumptions regarding what evidence there is for Obito. There is more than just physical evidence. Some of their personality traits are the same, and Tobi acts very strange around Kakashi.



PositiveEmotions said:


> it does not make sense to me on how kagami could be his father i mean the only think i could think of them being father and son is the hair their a bit the same accept kagami's hair is a bit wavy


It's just the desperate Kagami supporters trying to give Kagami some kind of link to Kakashi. It's such a pathetic last resort.


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> It is their way of attempting to make Kagami relevant.
> 
> At first it was to explain why he'd have similar powers to Kakashi, but that went out the window when it turned out Tobi was literally using Obito's eye.



i am not sure if i remember correctly kagami showing his ms i could be wrong let me look it up.. yea i looked it up it never showed kagami show his ms nor his jutsus but let me double check.. yea he doesnt show signs of ms so who ever cape up with all this stuff is surely did not pay attention or even bothered to do some research before making up stuff no offense to that person



Mistshadow said:


> But hey, I'm crazy and grasping at straws with assumptions for making explanations on how Tobi is Obito
> 
> 
> Oyaaaa, I totally forgot that until the other week, they were coping out saying the eye was because it was Obito's father who used it as Kagami, and it wasn't Obito's eye to begin with. All because of family relations for similar powers.



its all good



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It looks like you're the one making assumptions regarding what evidence there is for Obito. There is more than just physical evidence. Some of their personality traits are the same, and Tobi acts very strange around Kakashi.
> 
> It's just the desperate Kagami supporters trying to give Kagami some kind of link to Kakashi. It's such a pathetic last resort.



this whole kagami,izuna, shishui threads not make any sense to me.

kagami was already an adult when the 3rd war was goin on an obito was still a kid does not fit anything.

and izuna willingly gave madara his eyes and fought in a way not sure which one it was and he was confirmed *DEAD​*​.

shishui willingly gave one of his eyes to itachi and the other eye danzo took it so all those three guys dont make sense to be tobi.

obito fits all the facts thus far remember obito was never confirmed dead but shishui and izuna where confirmed dead.. idk much about kagame


----------



## anon04 (Aug 23, 2012)

PositiveEmotions said:


> *shishui willingly gave one of his eyes to itachi and the other eye danzo took it so all those three guys dont make sense to be tobi.*
> 
> obito fits all the facts thus far remember obito was never confirmed dead but shishui and izuna where confirmed dead.. idk much about kagame



first of all what do you know about shisui's true intentions?
no one knows and talk about itachi, well
even "the great itachi uchiha" could be easily fooled into believing that tobi was none other than uchiha madara without even seeing his real face 

and then itachi spoke those words about shisui when he was already placed under kotoamatsukami (shisui's ultimate MS genjutsu)
so don't take itachi's word as facts, he is being used by others all his life

second, the eye given to itachi could be just a one time run kotoamatsukami embedded on any ordinary sharingan 
remember the time when itachi planted a one time run amaterasu on sasuke's left eye without actually transferring his "physical" sharinghan eye ball


----------



## NW (Aug 23, 2012)

anon4 said:
			
		

> first of all what do you know about shisui's true intentions?
> no one knows and talk about itachi, well
> even "the great itachi uchiha" could be easily fooled into believing that tobi was none other than uchiha madara without even seeing his real face
> 
> ...


Tobi can't be Shisui. Tobi had Obito's sharingan before and after Shisui lost both his eyes to Danzo and Itachi.

Also, flashbacks can't be faked.


----------



## anon04 (Aug 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Tobi can't be Shisui. Tobi had Obito's sharingan before and after Shisui lost both his eyes to Danzo and Itachi.
> 
> Also, flashbacks can't be faked.



well, i am of the view that the eye given to itachi in a flashback was not shisui's
it's just that shisui's genjutsu was planted on it


----------



## NW (Aug 23, 2012)

anon4 said:
			
		

> well, i am of the view that the eye given to itachi in a flashback was not shisui's
> it's just that shisui's genjutsu was planted on it


Still, Shisui wouldn't be old enough to be Tobi, assuming the marks on Tobi's face are wrinkles, and there is no currently known accident to have happened to him which could have given him those, assuming they're scars.

Also, Tobi referred to Shisui as a different person in his head. 

But, I do however, think Shisui is connected to Tobi.

You see, I think Tobi is Obito and his brother is Shisui. So, basically I think there could be a connection but I don't think that Tobi and Shisui are the same person.

I mean, didn't Danzo say that brothers can have similar MS abilities? Could explain how Tobi controlled Yagura.

If Tobi(Obito) and Shisui are brothers, it could explain how Shisui got his MS, by thinking Obito was dead. It also could explain why Shisui became so close to Itachi to the point they became like brothers. They also both willingly gave up one of their eyes. Cold also possible explain how Tobi knows so much about Itachi. He was watching him with Shisui.

Also, there's this:

For brother pair number 1: Izuna dies and Madara lives on and is evil.

For brother pair #2: Itachi dies and Sasuke lives on and is evil (well, kinda).

For hypothetical brother pair #3: Shisui dies and Obito lives on and is evil.


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

anon04 said:


> first of all what do you know about shisui's true intentions?
> no one knows and talk about itachi, well
> even "the great itachi uchiha" could be easily fooled into believing that tobi was none other than uchiha madara without even seeing his real face
> 
> ...



i  did not write the manga but from what the manga went shishui seemed like a good guy according to itachi and as i said before shishui lost both of his eyes so it would be impossible to be him but that does not mean i am not open to possibilities because anyone can be tobi but thus far it seems obito makes the perfect match and also the manga confirmed him dead if i am wrong on that than prove me wrong with a link or pic also i think itachi and shishui knew a war was gonna happen so maybe shishui  came up with the ultimate jutsu (i think i am wrong on that one i think it has been passed on by other uchiha generations).


----------



## anon04 (Aug 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Still, Shisui wouldn't be old enough to be Tobi, assuming the marks on Tobi's face are wrinkles, and there is no currently known accident to have happened to him which could have given him those, assuming they're scars.
> 
> Also, Tobi referred to Shisui as a different person in his head.
> 
> ...



the only reason which keeps me believing tobi could be shisui is that he has never been shown as a "character" where he has things to say and situations to react 
a few broken flashbacks from itachi's recollection are not enough to describe his character
moreover kishi doesn't tend to disclose shisui's profile in any databook so that's why i'm more suspicious of him


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

anon04 said:


> the only reason which keeps me believing tobi could be shisui is that he has never been shown as a "character" where he has things to say and situations to react
> a few broken flashbacks from itachi's recollection are not enough to describe his character
> moreover kishi doesn't tend to disclose shisui's profile in any databook so that's why i'm more suspicious of him



if i remember correctly shishui died as a good guy not a bad guy the only bad uchihas that i remember was  madara uchiha and tobi and now sasuke uchiha well his kind of both evil and good


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## NW (Aug 23, 2012)

anon4 said:
			
		

> the only reason which keeps me believing tobi could be shisui is that he has never been shown as a "character" where he has things to say and situations to react
> a few broken flashbacks from itachi's recollection are not enough to describe his character
> moreover kishi doesn't tend to disclose shisui's profile in any databook so that's why i'm more suspicious of him


Oh, I see. I think his character will be explained in Obito's flashbacks. That is, if they're brothers, which I'm pretty confident they are. But if they're not, it could be explained some other way. I just don't see any logical way Tobi can be Shisui when he literally referred to him as a different person in his head.


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## Summers (Aug 23, 2012)

Tobi is Nobody.


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## anon04 (Aug 23, 2012)

PositiveEmotions said:


> i  did not write the manga but from what the manga went *shishui seemed like a good guy* according to itachi and as i said before shishui lost both of his eyes so it would be impossible to be him but that does not mean i am not open to possibilities because anyone can be tobi but thus far it seems obito makes the perfect match and also the manga confirmed him dead if i am wrong on that than prove me wrong with a link or pic also i think itachi and shishui knew a war was gonna happen so maybe shishui  came up with the ultimate jutsu (i think i am wrong on that one i think it has been passed on by other uchiha generations).



i tend to differ here, apparently there is a contrast in shisui's personality and his statements which unveils a deceptive nature of this individual

at one time he is posing as a faithful die-hard uchiha memeber who can sacrifice anything for the clan but another time he reveals his rebellious intent to itachi all for the sake of creating "peace" and "save konoha"
so no one can actually judge what uchiha shisui's true motives were? where did his true loyalties lie? 

as you know his clansmen believed in shisui so much and they could never question his loyalty 
but a hint of betrayal was evident from shisui's suicide note which says "this clan is pathetic, i have lost hopes for this clan"
even if it was forged by itachi's sharingan the intentions were the same as shisui's

the whole clan was betrayed by shisui and who knows whether he deceived itachi or not?

it seems shisui could change colors according to the situation 
associate an imperceptible permanent long term genjutsu like kotoamatsukami with a guy like him 
and there is very less to distinguish between tobi and shisui


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## Easley (Aug 23, 2012)

I think there will be more to the reveal than people imagine. All the hints are going in Obito's direction, there's not even an attempt to create some doubt. Kakashi saying "He can't be..." while picturing the memorial stone, is basically telling us outright. For such a long awaited moment it's a strange way of handling this. The mask comes off and he's exactly who you think he is! wow, amazing. What about a twist or something? Tobito is the most popular Tobi theory so most readers should at least know of it.

Where does Naruto fit in this anyway? He just shattered the mask and is yelling "who are you..." in Tobi's face, but it will be a semi-conscious Kakashi on the ground who actually identifies him?


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## anon04 (Aug 23, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Oh, I see. I think his character will be explained in Obito's flashbacks. That is, if they're brothers, which I'm pretty confident they are. But if they're not, it could be explained some other way. *I just don't see any logical way Tobi can be Shisui when he literally referred to him as a different person in his head*



why tobi spoke of shisui in third person only once
well here are my reasons

1-it's like tobi himself and everybody in manga including the preoccupied 90% naruto community said it over million times that tobi was madara but indeed he is not

2-kishi wants to drag this "masked man tobi identity" affair since its the only thing which keeps these discussion forums alive

imagine if he said "my eye" then, the whole story would literally be finished there at chapter 484 and we wouldn't be that eager to discuss naruto manga on these blogs even if the story continued after that

3-there is a certain convention in japenese language which allows its user to verbalize his name in third person quite often

and yes i firmly believe that shisui and obito are brothers


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## ch1p (Aug 23, 2012)

The design of the MS being a single and not a mish-mash makes it obvious it's either Obito or a non Uchiha. There's just no way a technicality like "ah, the MS just didn't evolve this time" is a likely excuse at this high stage. That would be worse than Konohamaru as Akatsuki Leader.


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 23, 2012)

anon04 said:


> i tend to differ here, apparently there is a contrast in shisui's personality and his statements which unveils a deceptive nature of this individual
> 
> at one time he is posing as a faithful die-hard uchiha memeber who can sacrifice anything for the clan but another time he reveals his rebellious intent to itachi all for the sake of creating "peace" and "save konoha"
> so no one can actually judge what uchiha shisui's true motives were? where did his true loyalties lie?
> ...



is that your predictions or just something you just think and wish it was true?

i am only goin from what i read if kishi really wanted to make it shishui be a betrayal to his friends than he might of already done so


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## anon04 (Aug 23, 2012)

PositiveEmotions said:


> is that your predictions or just something you just think and wish it was true?
> 
> i am only goin from what i read if kishi really wanted to make it shishui be a betrayal to his friends than he might of already done so



it's just an analytic assumption based on what have been revealed about shisui's character so far
if he could betray his clan, he would betray anyone
and kishi wouldn't possibly have done so unless he had explained shisui's background story


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## Menacing Eyes (Aug 23, 2012)

So who has to be the one to recognize who Tobi is if he's Obito first, us readers, or will Kakashi have to blurt it out and Tobi confirm it before we actually know?


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 23, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> So who has to be the one to recognize who Tobi is if he's Obito first, us readers, or will Kakashi have to blurt it out and Tobi confirm it before we actually know?



I figure Tobi will either confirm it himself or Kakashi will be the one to recognize him.


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## DelRappy (Aug 23, 2012)

I'll bet that current Tobi is Obito, but that several people have used that mask and identity.


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## NW (Aug 23, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:
			
		

> So who has to be the one to recognize who Tobi is if he's Obito first, us readers, or will Kakashi have to blurt it out and Tobi confirm it before we actually know?


Pretty sure Kakashi will scream "OBITO!" and it will be shown simultaneously with Obito's face.


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## Easley (Aug 23, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> So who has to be the one to recognize who Tobi is if he's Obito first, us readers, or will Kakashi have to blurt it out and Tobi confirm it before we actually know?


It will be funny if Kishi feels a need for Kakashi to blurt it out, because he isn't confident that the readers can recognize him. Well, he could be horribly disfigured or have a bizarre appearance but knowing him instantly is what we expect.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 23, 2012)

Easley said:


> It will be funny if Kishi feels a need for Kakashi to blurt it out, because he isn't confident that the readers can recognize him. Well, he could be horribly disfigured or have a bizarre appearance but knowing him instantly is what we expect.



He's still going to have to put a name to the face, even if everyone recognizes it.

There's a reason that despite Kakashi and Guy's suspicion's, they have yet to mention Obito by name.


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## Menacing Eyes (Aug 23, 2012)

I don't really understand the point of the mask from a reader's standpoint if Kakashi has to be the one to point it out or if Tobi has to confirm it. If we're unable to recognize who he is on our own when the mask is off, then what's the point of hiding his face in those panels when he does have it off? It's kinda weird that Kishi would hide the face of someone we can't recognize and need another character or the masked man himself to confirm only after the mask is off.

Is there something I'm not really getting here? It just seems kinda strange.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 23, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> I don't really understand the point of the mask from a reader's standpoint if Kakashi has to be the one to point it out or if Tobi has to confirm it. If we're unable to recognize who he is on our own when the mask is off, then what's the point of hiding his face in those panels when he does have it off? It's kinda weird that Kishi would hide the face of someone we can't recognize and need another character or the masked man himself to confirm only after the mask is off.
> 
> Is there something I'm not really getting here? It just seems kinda strange.



Because the characters will recognize him.

And I think you are overrating this concern. Even if he will be recognizable to most readers, it is still necessary to formally identify him.


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## Kduff (Aug 24, 2012)

Explain to me how the timeline matches up for it to be Obito? I don't really care who it is, but if it is him, there better be a good explanation as to how he "died" when he and Kakashi were 13/14, and then a year later, when Tobi attacked the village with the nine-tails, he was somehow strong enough (and significantly different in size and stature) to compete with the Hokage of the village. Different Tobis? If that's the case... I'd be unimpressed. Yeah, it's an explanation, but not a very exciting one. And he still had one eye and all the same eye techniques as the current Tobi. It doesn't make much sense to me.


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 24, 2012)

anon04 said:


> it's just an analytic assumption based on what have been revealed about shisui's character so far
> if he could betray his clan, he would betray anyone
> and kishi wouldn't possibly have done so unless he had explained shisui's background story



yea i doubt kishi would bring up shishui at this point unless he makes tobi talk about shishui


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## Dr. Obvious (Aug 24, 2012)

stop thinking what i _don't_ think


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## Summers (Aug 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> You guys just have to come to terms with reality.
> 
> There is nothing pointing to Tobi being Izuna.
> 
> ...



We are in agreement now.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 24, 2012)

Summers said:


> We are in agreement now.



You can cling to your apathy but it's silly to deny that there's quite a lot pointing to Tobi being Obito now.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 24, 2012)

FUCK ! It has come to this huh ?

Ok.

I'll place my bet.

...

Its Izuna in Obito's body.



I know. But it seems like the best bet right now.

Gather around folks. I'll tell you the story.

Madara revives his fallen brother Izuna. Then he seals his soul into Obito's body. Perhaps he needs an Uchiha Body to do the soul transfer thing. When obito dies, he gains that opportunity. 

Thats it.


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## Combine (Aug 24, 2012)

It's Obito and someone else.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 24, 2012)

*10000 %  proven IT IS OBITO*

OKAY, So I went out to the bars tongiht with some friends, I drank a lot, and thought about my personal theory along with some counters, and you know what, I accidentally proved that the man behind the mask being Obito is 100% true and there is NO alternative.

I'll Explain:

If it was Izuna, who had an MS in the past, if he transplanted another Sharingan to keep his eye power and use the S/T jutsu that Obito's eye offers, it would be a combination of his MS and Obito's MS.

YET the design is SOLELY the MS of OBITOS.

IF it is KAGAMI as some people believe, being the father of Obito, who had a similar MS power, or even Shisui, they would have a mixed MS design. Yet, there is only ONE MS design. That means..........
 THIS MEANS that the user never had MS before, and never attempted to achieve MS from another Uchiha. So that MS MUST be the original eye to the user and the original user IS OBITO


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## Mistshadow (Aug 24, 2012)

OKAY, So I went out to the bars tongiht with some friends, I drank a lot, and thought about my personal theory along with some counters, and you know what, I accidentally proved that the man behind the mask being Obito is 100% true and there is NO alternative.

I'll Explain:

If it was Izuna, who had an MS in the past, if he transplanted another Sharingan to keep his eye power and use the S/T jutsu that Obito's eye offers, it would be a combination of his MS and Obito's MS.

YET the design is SOLELY the MS of OBITOS.

IF it is KAGAMI as some people believe, being the father of Obito, who had a similar MS power, or even Shisui, they would have a mixed MS design. Yet, there is only ONE MS design. That means..........
THIS MEANS that the user never had MS before, and never attempted to achieve MS from another Uchiha. So that MS MUST be the original eye to the user and the original user IS OBITO


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## Namikaze Minato (Aug 24, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> If it was Izuna, who had an MS in the past, if he transplanted another Sharingan to keep his eye power and use the S/T jutsu that Obito's eye offers, it would be a combination of his MS and Obito's MS.



Thing is , Izuna gave his eyes to his brother Madara.


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## SaiST (Aug 24, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> If it was Izuna, who had an MS in the past, if he transplanted another Sharingan to keep his eye power and use the S/T jutsu that Obito's eye offers, it would be a combination of his MS and Obito's MS.
> 
> YET the design is SOLELY the MS of OBITOS.


Nnnope! 

If it was that easy to create an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, there would have been more successful attempts throughout the last century. The amalgamation of ocular power—and thus, Tomoe Seals—only happens if the donor's Mangekyou Sharingan is compatible with the recipient. For example, it is unlikely that Itachi would have been able to acquire an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan for himself by exchanging his Mangekyou Sharingan with Shisui's, or Obito's

As I pointed out earlier, in the thread I made Wednesday about the Tomoe Seal, it gives more credence to the belief that Tobi is Obito. But it's still possible that another Uchiha could be using Obito's eye.

I was pretty confident that it would turn out to be Izuna using Obito's eye as an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan... He's been using it's ocular power pretty carelessly for the better part of two decades, with no sign of it's sight deteriorating. And both Izuna and Obito are O blood types, which could have explained compatibility between them...

_* SaiST shrugs._


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## darknos (Aug 24, 2012)

Tobi is Uchiha Kagami, obito's father, and the first son of an Uchiha/Uzumaki creating the new jutsu kamui. I Don't say this because I belive what I just said, I just used to like obito's character...


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## SaiST (Aug 24, 2012)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Thing is , Izuna gave his eyes to his brother Madara.


Wouldn't have mattered.

I'm assuming you're also under the impression that the eyes are somehow fused, but that is false—the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan is created through an exchange of Mangekyou Sharingan.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 24, 2012)

keep thread open, when i get my brain back we will have fun]\\\


if you want to make this fun SaiSt, keep this thread open to only you and I. Trust me we will make a first on NarutoForums in the last 5 years 
You are one of the most educated debaters on here and tomorrow will be fun


----------



## Orochibuto (Aug 24, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Wouldn't have mattered.
> 
> I'm assuming you're also under the impression that the eyes are somehow fused, but that is false—the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan is created through an exchange of Mangekyou Sharingan.



When showing the explanation of the EMS a demon with 4 eyes appear, so its likely its a fusion.

Otherwise you could simplye exchange MS between brothers and both would get EMS without losing eyesight in which case Madara would have simply handed his MS to Izuna both gaining EMS, or Itachi could have come with a better strategy to exchange eyes with Sasuke and beat Tobi, which according to Itachi if he got EMS he would be able to beat pre Rinnegan Tobi.


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## SaiST (Aug 24, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> keep thread open, when i get my brain back we will have fun]\\\
> 
> 
> if you want to make this fun SaiSt, keep this thread open to only you and I. Trust me we will make a first on NarutoForums in the last 5 years
> You are one of the most educated debaters on here and tomorrow will be fun


Well, *I'll* leave it be. But if another mod decides to merge it, I can't really do anything about it. >_>



Orochibuto said:


> When showing the explanation of the EMS a demon with 4 eyes appear, so its likely its a fusion.


The Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan is a result of a compatible Mangekyou Sharingan being transplanted into an Uchiha that has already awakened a Mangekyou Sharingan of their own, allowing their ocular powers to meld.

Thus, the amalgamation of Tomoe Seals, and the image of the four-eyed Housoushi Youkai.


*Spoiler*: _It has only ever been described as an EXCHANGE_ 





SaiST said:


> _" In finding a new master, [highlight]his brother's eyes[/highlight] gained eternal light. However, such an [highlight]exchange[/highlight] could only ever take place between members of the same clan." -*cnet*_
> 
> _"It seems that by acquiring a new host, [highlight]his brother's eyes[/highlight] gained eternal light... However, this [highlight]trade[/highlight] can only be carried out among family members. (note: you could read it as "among clan members" as well, but I believe it refers to "family"; ndt)" -*tora-chan*_
> 
> ...








> _Otherwise you could simplye exchange MS between brothers and both would get EMS without losing eyesight in which case Madara would have simply handed his MS to Izuna both gaining EMS_


Madara and Izuna were the first two to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan, it is highly unlikely that they were even aware of what could come about through such an exchange.

Madara was desperate, and took Izuna's Mangekyou Sharingan so he could continue to fight for the clan. And it is unlikely that Izuna would have taken Madara's at the time, as their _"light"_ had been lost—they would have considered them useless. In the time it took Madara to become aware of the benefits, his eyes could have either been disposed of to protect the bloodline's secrets, or Izuna could have already fallen in battle.


*Spoiler*: _Concerning the unlikelihood of mutual exchanges, and many failed attempts in the decades to follow_ 





SaiST said:


> Yuna said:
> 
> 
> > Itachi said that "countless" Uchiha lives were lost when siblings tried to kill each other for their eyes. If it was a question of a mere exchange, *why didn't they just exchange eyes* and create a clan just *bursting* with Eternal Mangekyou Sharingans?
> ...








> _or Itachi could have come with a better strategy to exchange eyes with Sasuke and beat Tobi, which according to Itachi if he got EMS he would be able to beat pre Rinnegan Tobi._


Itachi was said to be terminally ill. And as he said to Naruto and Killer B, there were other things he desired to accomplish by dying before Sasuke's eyes—triggering the awakening of his little brother's Mangekyou Sharingan, and allowing a means for him to return to Konoha as a hero.

Basically, Itachi had no desire to have an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 24, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> I'm 21, I'm just educated enough to know about perspectives, Looking at one side of an argument leads to making errors in judgements.



Seems young...





> Who says that Nagato got the rinnegan as he was  a baby, and who says he got the rinnegan at 8-9? We don't know how it works. We have ZERO information to base it off. The only thing we know is it ACTIVATED when Nagato was under Jiraiya. We have no idea what happened when those ninja killed his parents, we assume Nagato killed them with his Rinnegan activation, but it zoomed away outside the house in the story. Maybe Madara killed them without Nagato realizing it? Who knows, the criteria and circumstances for how and when Nagato got the Rinnegan is unknown. Your asking an impossible to ask question when you say WHY. Why would he put it in Nagato to begin with. Why was he in the Rain country to begin with? Exactly............



Oh my god! You say that Nagato got Madara's Rinnegan in 2nd world war.

Also Nagato wasn't with Jiraiya when he awakened his eyes it happned before that.






> And what determines that limit? There's a limit for every single identity on. Who gets to decide that limit? All we can do is fill in the holes with OUR assumptions, because if we can fill it in, we know its possible, and if we are insanely lucky, kishi fills it in with the same ideas. But if not, no big deal, because either way something happened.



My friend, the limit is your self;

You can make assumptions but your theory is all assupmtions:

1- Madara lives alone till the time Obito-Rock incident, makes surgeries to himself etc etc.

2- Madara awakens Rinnegan in 2nd world war

3- Nagato gets Madara's eyes in 2nd world war

4- Obito gets crazy because Rin died

5- Obito in maximum 1 year becomes hokage level with a handicaped body(14 years old)

6- He hate and kills whole Uchiha clan including his own family because Rin died

7- Bloody mist starts in Madara's time and Obito takes over it

8- Madara becomes a scientist

.
.
.

These are the basic details of your theory and none of them come from a source. They are just assumptions. You have only a body seems like Obito





> Bloody Mist details are UNKNOWN. We DONT KNOW the circumstances. Believing Yagura started the bloody Mist era is an assumption. It easily could have been started by the 3rd Mizukage. Or it could have been started by Yagura himself. We know the Academy graduation of killing each other ended when Zabuza killed all the students despite being a kid not even enrolled. But stopping that practice didn't end the bloody Mist era, look at Haku, his mom was killed by his dad because of the bloody hate against bloodline limits that was another aspect from the bloody mist era.
> The ONLY Scene we see of Yagura being controlled by someone else is AFTER the kyuubi incident when 'Tobi' Already exists. Convenient? We NEVER see a scene of Tobi existing until the kyuubi incident.
> How do we know this was after kyuubi attack? Look at Kisame's age. He's 32, and he looked to be apprixmately 18 AT LEAST or older in that flashback. Or look at Ibiki's age, that works better. He's 31 and he looks EXACTLY the same in that flashback.
> So basing on the bloody mist being Tobi/Madara the whole time is an assumption. Yagura became Mizukage on his own somehow. And its a ninja ninja world. Just being a 'good guy' doesn't mean you wouldn't do such things.



First:



We don't know how old Shishui is but as you see it's likely Yagura have been controlled in shishui's era(by Danzo or by Shishui)

Next:

In Kage meeting, Raikage claims that Akatsuki founded in Mist village and Mizukage says that it was because Yagura has been controlled.

Bloody mist ends before 13 years ago when Zabuza was 13-14 years old:

Please tell me the one who controls Yagura is Tobi or Madara?






ObitoUchiha111 said:


> It looks like you're the one making assumptions regarding what evidence there is for Obito. There is more than just physical evidence. Some of their personality traits are the same, and Tobi acts very strange around Kakashi.



I've just written them all... Check again...

What evidence? What do you know about Obito?



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Also, there's this:
> 
> For brother pair number 1: Izuna dies and Madara lives on and is evil.
> 
> ...



What?


----------



## jgalt7 (Aug 24, 2012)

EMS is a fusion of 2 sets of eyes, therefore the design is a hybrid of both designs.

if a man who has no eyes accepts a MS eye, it will not change the design of the eyes.....like, let's say, izuna.  obito's eye design will not change because it is not fusing with another eye.....it is merely a transplant....like kakashi.

the question is, if a guy like izuna who had the MS before takes in a transplanted eye, will that second eye still go blind?  will the second eye be the second light and a mid form of EMS.....

is this the reason for the uchiha clan being such a savage clan.....the stealing of eyes to regain their sights.  given the history of izanagi, izanami and MS, it is very likely that those with no siblings that have no recourse to obtain a true EMS resorted to stealing other people's eyes to gain their sights back once their MS eyes go blind.....this would seem like a feasible explanation.

the rarity in the EMS lies in families with brothers who both awaken their MS and and only can get it.


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## SaiST (Aug 24, 2012)

And yet again, someone insists on the eyes physically merging in front of a wall of evidence that contradicts the claim.



jgalt7 said:


> EMS is a fusion of 2 sets of eyes, therefore the design is a hybrid of both designs.


​


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 24, 2012)

At this point if he turns out someone other then Obito Kakashi's reaction will be "Thank God I was scared for a moment :'D" This is obviously not gonna happen so...


----------



## SaiST (Aug 24, 2012)

Moon~ said:


> At this point if he turns out someone other then Obito Kakashi's reaction will be "Thank God I was scared for a moment :'D" This is obviously not gonna happen so...


It bodes well for those in support of Tobito. If Obito was mentioned more directly, then it could've been taken as misdirection, but...

The back 'n forth reactions as folks were getting one translation after another of that spoiler summary of the event was humorous, to say the least.


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 24, 2012)

SaiST said:


> It bodes well for those in support of Tobito. If Obito was mentioned more directly, then it could've been taken as misdirection, but...
> 
> The back 'n forth reactions as folks were getting one translation after another of that spoiler summary of the event was humorous, to say the least.



It was hilarious  I'm not a supporter of anything so it makes everything double entertaining. Especially the actual chapter was worse considering that spoilers were mentioning the "name" _at least_.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

It's an eye replacement, not merging.  It's unknown if you can swap eyes.  It's possible but obviously both examples of EMS the other brothers died and never tested it out.  

Honestly, the biggest reason it's likely to be Obito is the obession with the eye.  I couldn't see Izuna using only Obito's eye and using sharingans as Izanagi batteries.  Kagami just isn't important enough to plot.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 24, 2012)

Guys guys look. 

It can't be someone with Obito's eye. 

Why ? 

Because he labeled Kakashi's kamui as "borrowed power."
And said that he'd show the power of real kamui.

Which means... Tobi is actually in possession of Obito's body. Otherwise, it would be meaningless to talk down Kakashi.

So really, there are 2 options :

1 - Tobi = Obito
2 - Tobi = Someone else in Obito's body.


----------



## Scizor (Aug 24, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Guys guys look.
> 
> It can't be someone with Obito's eye.
> 
> ...



But he also said he found the eye at the bridge, which implies he isn't Obito or someone in Obito's body.

With that said, I do think Tobi is Obito though.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 24, 2012)

It's pretty much canon that EMS is only obtainable through siblings and it's a fusion of 2 MS's, I fail to see how that proves he's Obito, as Izuna wouldn't fuse eyes with Obito, he simply took it and popped it in.


----------



## Sacrass (Aug 24, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> When showing the explanation of the EMS a demon with 4 eyes appear, so its likely its a fusion.
> 
> Otherwise you could simplye exchange MS between brothers and both would get EMS without losing eyesight in which case Madara would have simply handed his MS to Izuna both gaining EMS, or Itachi could have come with a better strategy to exchange eyes with Sasuke and beat Tobi, which according to Itachi if he got EMS he would be able to beat pre Rinnegan Tobi.




I thought Itachi was sick? He could be going blind, but disease was killing him from inside, so he pumped himself full of medicine so he would die in front of Sasuke. He wouldn't be able to touch Tobi unless that illness was somehow cured.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 24, 2012)

Scizor said:


> But he also said he found the eye at the bridge, which implies he isn't Obito or someone in Obito's body.
> 
> With that said, I do think Tobi is Obito though.



He didn't say he found it.


Kakashi asked where he got it and he answered "@ the bridge."

He might be simply referring to awakening the sharingan.


----------



## Black Mirror (Aug 24, 2012)

This threadtitle is so full of math ~ XD 

and no it's not proven, it just seems very obvious


----------



## Blur (Aug 24, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> It's pretty much canon that EMS is only obtainable through siblings and it's a fusion of 2 MS's, I fail to see how that proves he's Obito, as Izuna wouldn't fuse eyes with Obito, he simply took it and popped it in.



Learn to read the manga or at least posts of SaiST in this thread.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 24, 2012)

Obito didnt even die at the Kannabi bridge.... he died before he even got there


----------



## DonutKid (Aug 24, 2012)

i came in to the thread thinking that someone is explaining the plot-holes of tobi=obito. guess i was wrong.


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (Aug 24, 2012)

how dense do you have to be to not realize the battle at kannabi bridge doesn't actually refer to a battle on a bridge?


----------



## Kiss (Aug 24, 2012)

I don't like it, but I agree it's quite obvious by now imo.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 24, 2012)

lol just saying

i know the evidence is greatly in Obito's favour.... but im not letting go of the plotholes until the fat lady sings


----------



## jacamo (Aug 24, 2012)

am i supposed to know who that guy is?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

*Tobito timeline*

It's really a repost.  But people say it's impossible for Tobi to be Obito because of plot holes.  If someone as much of a hack writer as me can create a timeline I'm sure Kish can as well.

Remember my best guess(fan fiction) and not all have to be in exact order!

Madara loses to Hashirama many years ago but gets some of his wood juice.

Madara starts experiments with Senju DNA from what he learns on Uchiha tablet expectation but fails to make anything more than Zetsu maybe from a grass village ninja.

Madara does either experiments with close Senju relative by giving his old eyes or base Uchiha eyes to son of a Uzumaki, Nagato. Or does the unthinkable for a Uchiha and purposely sires a child with a Uzumaki woman.

Madara becomes the secret leader of Kirigakure at some point and the Bloody Mist based on Uchiha legacy to awaken MS.

Somewhere along the line Madara decided he wants to do the Moons Eye plan.

Nagato awakens his rinnegan but disappears in the war and thought dead.

Nagato is rediscovered after Yahiko starts or is beginning to organize Akatsuki. Rumors of a new or rediscovered doujutsu lets Madara know it's Nagato.

Madara at this point is older and can't travel to go see Nagato in a war torn country.

Madara has continued to work on obtaining his own rinnegan and is discovered and spied on by Oro.

Madara is given wounded body of Obito discovered by Zetsu. Possible that Obito's eye is special that it awakened MS instead of 3 tomes just like it skip having 1 tome or his ability to go intangible is what saved him which peaked Zetsu's interest. 

Madara begins his mind fucking of Obito and has Rin murdered by Kirigakure and negotiates with the Leaf making the Leaf look bad for lack of vengeance or tricks to Obito kill Rin to awakened MS if not already awaken.

Obito buys into the Moons Eye plan to kill the ninja system and abandons the Hidden Leaf but lurks around to learn from Uchiha Tablet and spies on Kakashi. 

Madara awakens his rinnegan after years of experiments but is too old and makes a plan with Obito to influence Nagato to bring him back to life. He orders Obito to wear a mask and grow his hair out to take his place and taught about Madara's life.

Naruto's birthday comes around and Madara sends Obito to get the Kyuubi using his MS. 

Madara dies at some point after this.

Obito begins to manipulate Nagato using his intangibility to make them think he's all powerful Madara. He pushes the idea of the Moons Eye plan for peace which appeals to Nagato. He orders Nagato to start adding missing nin to Akatsuki and form a Bijuu team.

Obito comes out to Kisame after seeing his power as Madara and begins to manipulate him to join Akatsuki.

Obito is discovered by Itachi and decides to help Itachi with is plan so he can obtain sharingans. Obito is afraid/weary/whatever of Itachi's power and follows along with not attacking the Leaf.

Obito implants sharingan eye for Izanagi

Obito orders Nagato to start collecting tailed beast.

Obito starts production of Zetsu clones once beast start being captured and put into Gedo Mazo.

Obito decides to infiltrate Akatsuki as Tobi after death of members.

Obito sees power in Sasuke and wants to use him to remove Itachi since Itachi is bent on dying to Sasuke anyway.

Obito after Deidara fight pretends to be dead and begins to command directly Nagato.

Obito blocks Leaf ninja's from stopping Itachi's production and death.

Obito after Itachi's death Obito starts to come out as Madara. 

Obito shows Kisame his face again.

Obito influences Sasuke by telling him Itachi's story so he won't go back to the Leaf so he won't be an obstacle and to gain a strong ally. He sends him after Killer Bee and Nagato after Naruto.

Obito as Madara has set backs with Nagato and Sasuke's failures. Abandons bringing Madara back since Nagato dies but views Sasuke as a replacement.

I guess the rest is known.


----------



## AoshiKun (Aug 24, 2012)

Sorry OP but this makes zero sense because you're going against manga facts like Nagato awakening his own Rinnegan, etc.

Let me tell you something: Obito = Tobi only works if Kishi screw a lot of things he said so it will be a retcon. Just read the manga carefully and you will realise that.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

AoshiKun said:


> Sorry OP but this makes zero sense because you're going against manga facts like Nagato awakening his own Rinnegan, etc.
> 
> Let me tell you something: Obito = Tobi only works if Kishi screw a lot of things he said so it will be a retcon. Just read the manga carefully and you will realise that.



No that's your assumption.

1. Tobi said Nagato's eyes are his.  But since he was lying about being Madara any of what he said could be a lie.
2. We have a panel and Nagato's word that he awakened his Rinnegan.  Unless that moment just didn't happened.  

People took Tobi's words as cannon because he said it during one of those why would I lie moments and he was Madara.  He's not Madara thus he lied during one of those why would I lie moments.  

Then you have the words of Nagato and a visual panel.  Who had more reason to lie Nagato or Tobi?  Who is a proven liar Nagato or Tobi?


----------



## Gus90 (Aug 24, 2012)

*IS TOBI SHISUI UCHIHA???*

Fuuton isn't stronger in this panel we see kakashi thinking about a grave and spelling shi..until he is interrupted by gai yelling his name..could ths be shisui's uchiha grave? think about it..shisui was always a pacifist and hated the shinobi world of war...which also points to tobi's final plan that is to achieve eternal peace..maybe that's why tobi had so much respect for itachi and never wanted to harm him..and that would also explain how itachi knew the face of tobi and gave an automatic amaterasu when sasuke would see it..share your views people!!


----------



## Petbottle (Aug 24, 2012)

That shi is from Kakashi...


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

Gus90 said:


> Fuuton isn't stronger in this panel we see kakashi thinking about a grave and spelling shi..until he is interrupted by gai yelling his name..could ths be shisui's uchiha grave? think about it..shisui was always a pacifist and hated the shinobi world of war...which also points to tobi's final plan that is to achieve eternal peace..maybe that's why tobi had so much respect for itachi and never wanted to harm him..and that would also explain how itachi knew the face of tobi and gave an automatic amaterasu when sasuke would see it..share your views people!!



It was guy calling Kakashi to wake him up.   [shi... Kakashi]

Unlikely Shisui.  Danzo ripped his right out in the middle of Tobi appearances.  Unless you think he popped in Obito's eye, put his back in and got it stolen and then popped Obito's eye back in.


----------



## Chibason (Aug 24, 2012)

NO SHISUI WAS DRFEATED BY DANZO THEN DROWNED HIMSELF LIKE A BITCH


----------



## anon04 (Aug 24, 2012)

Chibason said:


> NO SHISUI WAS DRFEATED BY DANZO THEN DROWNED HIMSELF LIKE A BITCH



you must be kidding, there was no way in hell danzo could defeat an uchiha with MS when he didn't even have the effin izanagi arm


----------



## Gus90 (Aug 24, 2012)

danzo also ripped shisui's arm...maybe that's why tobi has zetsu in one arm..


----------



## Gus90 (Aug 24, 2012)

also tobi had in control the fourth mizukage and we know that shisui had that ability..tobi being shisui could explain his hatred to danzo and we saw that he avoided meeting with ao because ao knows shisui's chakra..


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 24, 2012)

No.


No.


No.



Nononono.

Lol no.

His MS design would have been different also, if I'm correct?


----------



## anon04 (Aug 24, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> It was guy calling Kakashi to wake him up.   [shi... Kakashi]
> 
> Unlikely Shisui.  Danzo ripped his right out in the middle of Tobi appearances.  Unless you think he popped in Obito's eye, put his back in and got it stolen and then popped Obito's eye back in.



ah no itachi was simply fooled, shisui's right eye was intact, the socket wasn't empty
the blood that was trickling down underneath the eye could just be just an indication that he used some MS genjutsu on danzo before meeting itachi




Moon~ said:


> No.
> 
> 
> No.
> ...



yeah like someone had seen the MS eye pattern during kyuubi attack 16 years ago


----------



## Mantux31 (Aug 24, 2012)

I think you're on to something there, OP


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

anon04 said:


> ah no itachi was simply fooled, shisui right eye was intact, the socket wasn't empty
> the blood that was trickling down underneath the eye could just be just an indication that he used some MS genjutsu on danzo before meeting itachi



So I guess the eye Danzo had was a genjutsu eye created from yin release!


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 24, 2012)

Kakashi was day dreaming, it was Gai calling his name "Kaka... shi"


----------



## Gus90 (Aug 24, 2012)

any of you that say shisui couldn't be fighting minato at his age..i ask you where in the manga says shisui's age..what if they were friends with itachi? when the tree uchiha came asking itachi about shisui they called him brat and had no respect...but they referred to shisui as brave and proud uchiha warrior and itachi should think of him as an older brtother..so shisui could be older than itachi!!


----------



## anon04 (Aug 24, 2012)

Gus90 said:


> any of you that say shisui couldn't be fighting minato at his age..i ask you where in the manga says shisui's age..what if they were friends with itachi? when the tree uchiha came asking itachi about shisui they called him brat and had no respect...but they referred to shisui as brave and proud uchiha warrior and itachi should think of him as an older brtother..so shisui could be older than itachi!!





Gus90 said:


> also tobi had in control the fourth mizukage and we know that shisui had that ability..tobi being shisui could explain his hatred to danzo and we saw that he avoided meeting with ao because ao knows shisui's chakra..




 FI_ICKIN A


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 24, 2012)

I like how you just disregarded all manga facts to make this


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 24, 2012)

anon04 said:


> yeah like someone had seen the MS eye pattern during kyuubi attack 16 years ago



I wasn't referring to that but anyways.


----------



## Faustus (Aug 24, 2012)

OP, you've actually created more plotholes than there really is


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> I like how you just disregarded all manga facts to make this



What manga facts that's proven with visual evidence that I omitted?


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 24, 2012)

Nagato's eyes belong to Madara, there is no wrong in there.
I am just waiting manga facts for Minato fight, thass'all


----------



## Anonymouse (Aug 24, 2012)

Faustus said:


> OP, you've actually created more plotholes than there really is



Impossible


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

Faustus said:


> OP, you've actually created more plotholes than there really is



What are these plot holes?


----------



## anon04 (Aug 24, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> So I guess the eye Danzo had was a genjutsu eye created from yin release!



no shisui's left eye was transplanted in danzo's right socket
itachi got the fake one with a one-time-run genjutsu placed on it

that's why tobi had to move on to nagato's rinnegan rather than heading straight for kakashi's sharingan when danzo's destroyed shisui's eye
(obito and shisui are most likely brothers ya know....... that was all to gain EMS)



Moon~ said:


> I wasn't referring to that but anyways.



well you should be referring to that because 16 years ago the eye pattern which was concealed purposely by the author could be a MS eye pattern, the pattern we're seeing right now can be an EMS variant


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

Moon~ said:


> Nagato's eyes belong to Madara, there is no wrong in there.
> I am just waiting manga facts for Minato fight, thass'all



Again it's assumed. 

Nagato said and had a panel showing he awakened his eyes.
Madara said he gained his eyes before he died.
Tobi said those eyes were his in the first place.

If Obito is Tobi than Tobi was lying to Konan.  Unless shortly is like 20 years.  There is nothing plot hole related nor the first time in literature someone nor Tobi has lied.  

You guys are impossible to explain to because your entrenched in assumptions because it's commonly accepted.  Obvious more and more as Tobi turns to be Obito those commonly accepted "facts" are false.  If there are no pictures it never happened.  Nagato has pictures. Tobi does not.


----------



## Moon Fang (Aug 24, 2012)

Sigh...Tobito fans. Nagatos rinnegan is Madaras wanna know why ? Firstly he can't deactivate them and two you say Tobi was posing as Madara when he said they belong to him correct ? That still means that the eyes belong to Madara just not Tobi since he was posing as him.


----------



## Chibason (Aug 24, 2012)

anon04 said:


> you must be kidding, there was no way in hell danzo could defeat an uchiha with MS when he didn't even have the effin izanagi arm



You must be trolling...

Shisui told Itachi that Danzou had kicked his ass and taken his eye...he then gave the other eye to Itachi to use for Konoha's sake...he isn't Tobi lol


----------



## anon04 (Aug 24, 2012)

Chibason said:


> You must be trolling...
> 
> Shisui told Itachi that Danzou had kicked his ass and taken his eye...he then gave the other eye to Itachi to use for Konoha's sake...he isn't Tobi lol



and you believe itachi........  how dense can you be?


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> Sigh...Tobito fans. Nagatos rinnegan is Madaras wanna know why ? Firstly he can't deactivate them and two you say Tobi was posing as Madara when he said they belong to him correct ? That still means that the eyes belong to Madara just not Tobi since he was posing as him.



I'm not a Tobito fan.  Try theorist.  I could careless if he's Obito or not unlike most of you anti-Tobito guys trying to protect your pride lol.

Do you know if natural rinnegan users can deactivate there eyes?  Have you ever seen the SoSP without Rinnegan on?

How do you explain the panel of Nagato awakening his eyes?  He just retarded and didn't know what his eyes looked like before?


----------



## Moon Fang (Aug 24, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> I'm not a Tobito fan.  Try theorist.  I could careless if he's Obito or not unlike most of you anti-Tobito guys trying to protect your pride lol.
> 
> Do you know if natural rinnegan users can deactivate there eyes?  Have you ever seen the SoSP without Rinnegan on?
> 
> How do you explain the panel of Nagato awakening his eyes?  He just retarded and didn't know what his eyes looked like before?



Madara is a natural Rinnegan user and he deactivated his eyes. Don't say he's not because he actually did awaken them through means we don't know yet but he defiantly did not have them transplanted. And how many time have we even seen the SoSP ? 

Nagatos eyes were continently covered before we saw his eyes and ever since then he's had them on all the time. The Rinnegan may have similar rules to the Sharingan that you can't turn them off but you must awaken them first. An Uchiha awakens the Sharingan at a time of need and can turn them off. Nagato awakened the Rinnegan at a time of need but can't turn them off due to transplant.


----------



## NW (Aug 24, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> You have only a body seems like Obito


Again, you are assuming that all the evidence for Obito is physical. But it's not. Tobi and Obito have displayed some very similar personality traits. They also both do that salute. There's also the way Tobi acts around Kakashi. He even points at him, just like Obito did.




> What evidence? What do you know about Obito?


A lot. Have you read Gaiden?





> What?


Did I not make myself clear enough for you to understand?



jacamo said:


> Obito didnt even die at the Kannabi bridge.... he died before he even got there


He awakened his sharingan during the battle of Kannabi Bridge, not at the bridge. And there's no way his body could have just magically turned up at the actual bridge after the battle. So, logically, he got it during the battle, who's the only person that could have obtained Obito's sharingan during the battle? Obito. So, Obito would have to still be alive.


----------



## Petbottle (Aug 24, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because he labeled Kakashi's kamui as "borrowed power."
> And said that he'd show the power of real kamui.


Borrowed from who? Obito, or an Uchiha? 

If Tobi is a person that holds pride in the Uchiha Name, then he would call any non-Uchiha with a Sharingan as "borrowed power".

Tobi is someone who collects eye's, and probably not just normal Eyes (for Izanagi usage), but also rare-power Eyes. 

We know that he wanted Shisui's Eyes from Danzou, and Tobi knew Danzou and Itachi had each one of Shisui's Eyes.
Now let's assume he observes the Uchiha for people with special Eye Powers, he would notice that Obito, Itachi and even Sasuke have special powers. That's enough of an explanation on why Tobi would have Obito's Eyes. He simple knew that those are special eyes. Further, this would also explain why he's training Sasuke. Because of his Eyes, and nothing else. Remember what he said when Sasuke used is Susanoo while fighting Danzou? He said "so that's his power".

That would also explain why he knows so much about Kakashi. He was simple keeping an Eye on Obitos Eye.

So why is Tobi, as an Uchiha, gathering Eyes? 
Assuming he's Izuna, he told us so himself: He gave them his brother.

People are going on with how Madara/Izuna are a counterpart to Sasuke/Itachi. Two loving brothers, and two where one ripped out the eyes of the other. And that solely because their beloved Itachi told them Madara did that. 
If the take the Tobi story as the right one, we are at two beloved brothers, one even willing to give his eyes to his brother.

If Madara and Izuna were lovey-dovey brothers, i'd say it would very plausible for Madara to fight Hashirama for the sole purpose of obtaining a Rinnegan, to bring back his brother (who might've died during war after he gave up his eyes).


----------



## NW (Aug 24, 2012)

anon04 said:


> well you should be referring to that because 16 years ago the eye pattern which was concealed purposely by the author could be a MS eye pattern, the pattern we're seeing right now can be an EMS variant


Um, no. Tobi's right eye is just normal MS.



anon04 said:


> and you believe itachi........  how dense can you be?


Shisui said it himself.


----------



## Jeαnne (Aug 24, 2012)

no....


----------



## Vice (Aug 24, 2012)

Like I said before Guy was calling out Kakashi's name but Kakashi was so lost in thought that all he heard was the "shi" part of it.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

Moon Fang said:


> Madara is a natural Rinnegan user and he deactivated his eyes. Don't say he's not because he actually did awaken them through means we don't know yet but he defiantly did not have them transplanted. And how many time have we even seen the SoSP ?
> 
> Nagatos eyes were continently covered before we saw his eyes and ever since then he's had them on all the time. The Rinnegan may have similar rules to the Sharingan that you can't turn them off but you must awaken them first. An Uchiha awakens the Sharingan at a time of need and can turn them off. Nagato awakened the Rinnegan at a time of need but can't turn them off due to transplant.



Why were his eyes covered?  If you were supposed to know they'd be shown but it was left ambiguous.  Tobi is an unreliable narrator.  Thus the it can be assumed either way.  But only assumed.

Madara is arguably less natural than Nagato even if the are Madara eyes.  Nagato's body is naturally SOSP.  Madara's senju implantation is imperfect or else Kabuto couldn't improve on it.  Uchiha eyes transplanted wholly while DNA is partial.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 24, 2012)

Here a factual timeline:

- Yagura starts bloody mist
- A masked man reveals himself to Kisame (Not sure about the time of this but Kisame was around 12)

- Zabuza age 9 graduates and ends bloody mist regime 
- Obito, Zabuza, and Kakashi are the same age
- The Kyuubi attack, Kakashi is 14, Obito would be 14 also
- Tobi takes his mask off to Kisame, Kisame confirms both masked men are the same man
- Ao confirms the bloody mist happened because Yagura was being manipulated.
- Kisame confirms Tobi was Yagura's manipulator (Obito was 9)

Conclusion? Tobi is not Obito


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 24, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> OKAY, So I went out to the bars tongiht with some friends, I drank a lot, and thought about my personal theory along with some counters, and you know what, I accidentally proved that the man behind the mask being Obito is 100% true and there is NO alternative.
> 
> I'll Explain:
> 
> ...



yea i already know that and the manga confirmed izuna *DEAD* in the manga.

and kagami was just a side character to help danzo's story also i tried to look for kagami's ms and i found no sorce of him having ms or being activated so my guess is kagami never activated his ms.

shishui was also confirmed *DEAD* in the manga and he willingly gave one of his eye balls to itachi and the other one danzo took it from him.

obit was never confirmed *DEAD* i could say many things on why theres so much facts on tobi being obito but if you refuse to believe so than your close minded (i am not referring to you exactly, but i hope u know wut i mean)


----------



## Footmax (Aug 24, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> - A masked man reveals himself to Kisame (Not sure about the time of this but Kisame was around 12)



If Kisame was 12, do you really think Ibiki would have been 10 during that flashback ?


----------



## orthoanduro (Aug 24, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Here a factual timeline:
> 
> - Yagura starts bloody mist
> - A masked man reveals himself to Kisame (Not sure about the time of this but Kisame was around 12)
> ...




obito don't have to be in the same age of kakashi , remember kakashi graduated at the age of 5 , and obito graduated at the age of 9 .

that mean kakashi is just prodigy child , and being in the same team with him dosnt mean that u are in the same age .

remember neji aslo didnt participate in chunin test after graduating because guy thought that he is not ready , and he teamed up with naruto multipil  time despite the fact that  niji is older .

maybe tobi is  older than kakashi by 3 or 4  years , 

maybe tobi was around 17-18 y.o when he fought the 4th 


and kisame wasn't around 12 y.o when he met tobi , that was silly .


his body contour  and skills mastery  say the opposite , Naruto chapter 142, page 4   Kisame was to guard the Cypher Division under orders from his superior, Fuguki Suikazan of Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist, so you think that 12 y.o will be assigned 4 mission like this ????? he graduating age was 10 , i dont think we are talking abut prodigy like kakashi or itachi .


----------



## orthoanduro (Aug 24, 2012)

Footmax said:


> If Kisame was 12, do you really think Ibiki would have been 10 during that flashback ?



exactly , + rep


----------



## Reddan (Aug 24, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Here a factual timeline:
> 
> - Yagura starts bloody mist
> - A masked man reveals himself to Kisame (Not sure about the time of this but Kisame was around 12)
> ...



Your timeline is completely wrong. 

Yagura started the Bloody Mist at least 21 years ago when Zabuza was 9.
Zabuza massacres the class and the graduation exam is ended. The bloody mist does not end.
When Kisame is around 20 he meets the masked man. Kisame appears to have left the village 10 years ago.
Zabuza launches an attack on Yagura, but fails.
Just before the start of the manga Mei ends the Bloody Mist era and Yagura.

There are two masked men. One being the original Madara and the other being Obito's body. The one with the long hair is Madara and the other is the Zetsu/Obito creation.


----------



## Garfield (Aug 24, 2012)

It's obviously not Obito. This is too familiar a "sleight of hand" so to speak for it to be Obito. If it was him, Kishi wouldn't have literally cried it out loud throughout the last few chapters.


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## Footmax (Aug 24, 2012)

Kisame is 2 years older than Ibiki, he (Ibiki) became a chunin at 15, I really doubt he was still a genin during that flashback.
That's why I think Kisame was around 17-18 when he met "Madara", and that's why the timeline is a mess ("Madara" was still manipulating Yagura although the bloody mist ended a few years ago.)


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Here a factual timeline:
> 
> - Yagura starts bloody mist
> - A masked man reveals himself to Kisame (Not sure about the time of this but Kisame was around 12)
> ...



Lol Kisame was 12?  As best I can tell the unmasking happened not long before he joined up with Itachi.  Itachi was 13+ because he had already killed his clan.  Even giving 5 years Kisame would be 19.


----------



## bach (Aug 24, 2012)

well tobi of kirigakure is not obito...
but a ninja with shisui's ms genjutsu...


----------



## Anonymouse (Aug 24, 2012)

[sp=Tag yo' shit]

[/sp]

Note the last frame. Shouldn't it be *THIRD* time? Or, is he specifically talking about that day alone?


----------



## Mayaki (Aug 24, 2012)

Fighting his sensei a few years after dying without even mentioning anything? Not the tiniest clue? That is weak forshadowing there where it defintely belongs.

It would fit but it would be ridiculous. People tend to say that it would fit all the themes introduced by Kishi and they are right but that does not make it less ridiculous. 

I actually liked it that is was Obitos eye. Thus Tobi is even more evil and caused more pain, now not only to Naruto, Sasuke but also to Kakashi, another "main" character.  But being the guy that died for his friends? The good guy turning bad AGAIN!? That's just uncool.

Also Tobi is quite intelligent. He knows perfectly how to use the hatred inside the people. He is not like Sasuke who just went wrong, he is one completely different kind of villain. He is truely evil. I just doubt that someone can turn THIS bad even if Madara influenced him.

But that is opinion and I think Kishi will satisfy me anyway because even if he is Obito I bet it will turn out still cool somehow.



> Note the last frame. Shouldn't it be THIRD time? Or, is he specifically talking about that day alone?



The second time to see another sharingan would mean that there was a first time to see another (!) sharingan. Tobi, Itachi, Sasuke. Fits.


----------



## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Aug 24, 2012)

At this point I can't say anything for sure... logic led me to believe the Tobi=Obito hypotesis to be impossible, but as of now nothing can be told for sure.
I just wonder what would Kishimoto say to justify the completely messed up timelines if Tobi really turns up to be Obito.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Aug 24, 2012)

2 posibilities

1) Tobi = Izuna with of course Obito's MS

2) Tobi = Obito, and his S/T dimension is a hyperbolic time chamber which also allows him to go to the past to fix any plot holes that are left in the Tobi = Obito theory


----------



## Escargon (Aug 24, 2012)

Who says last chance for Tobi reveal? Knowing Kishi Tobi might just teleport away and get a new mask or the manga will switch to Madara or some shit like that before his face gets revealed so i would be surprised.

My bet on Kaiza


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 24, 2012)

adee said:


> It's obviously not Obito. This is too familiar a "sleight of hand" so to speak for it to be Obito. If it was him, Kishi wouldn't have literally cried it out loud throughout the last few chapters.



y would kishi even bother to cry over his own characters wtf


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## SaiST (Aug 24, 2012)

It's interesting how folks' conceptions of a red herring/misdirection differ.



PositiveEmotions said:


> y would kishi even bother to cry over his own characters wtf


_"cried it out loud"_, as in exclaiming it, making it abundantly clear...


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

Mayaki said:


> Fighting his sensei a few years after dying without even mentioning anything? Not the tiniest clue? That is weak forshadowing there where it defintely belongs.
> 
> It would fit but it would be ridiculous. People tend to say that it would fit all the themes introduced by Kishi and they are right but that does not make it less ridiculous.
> 
> ...



Well whoever it is they awakened MS in a year after decided to take a 2 tomoe sharingan if it's not Obito.

It's really not about the details of the timeline it's the fact that it can be done by someone like me.


----------



## Killer Zylos Wolf (Aug 24, 2012)

I'm still certain on my suspects for this case: 


Killer Zylos Wolf said:


> I have three prime suspects for this case, they are from most likely to less likely:
> 
> 1)
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




I hope Zetsu has some part in it whoever it is though...I want that damn White goo explained already, fuck Hashirama and his wall clone of arms, I want Zetsu relevance. I hope Zetsu is just fucking with everyone and is like half the people in the Naruto world.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 24, 2012)

Footmax said:


> If Kisame was 12, do you really think Ibiki would have been 10 during that flashback ?



Did Kisame have Samehada when he first met Tobi? Because if he never it's plausible he was 12 when they met


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## Louis-954 (Aug 24, 2012)

It's Obito's eye and his body mixed/fixed with Zetsu. Kagami is the one in control though.


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## Ezekial (Aug 24, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> Note the last frame. Shouldn't it be *THIRD* time? Or, is he specifically talking about that day alone?



That was part 1, Tobi was even drempt of then, back when Oro was main villain, and Sarutobi was > everyone else... Line means nothing now


----------



## Footmax (Aug 24, 2012)

Ezekial said:


> Did Kisame have Samehada when he first met Tobi? Because if he never it's plausible he was 12 when they met



He had Samehada.


----------



## Hexa (Aug 24, 2012)

arednad said:


> Just before the start of the manga Mei ends the Bloody Mist era and Yagura.


It's probably sometime after the Wave arc that this happens.  Zabuza was gathering funds for another try at a coup.



			
				anonymouse said:
			
		

> Note the last frame. Shouldn't it be THIRD time? Or, is he specifically talking about that day alone?


That day alone.


----------



## OgreMagi (Aug 24, 2012)

Louis-954 said:


> It's Obito's eye and his body mixed/fixed with Zetsu. Kagami is the one in control though.



Yes the first sentence is obvious to me.  Kagami seems likely as well although the controller may be someone else.


----------



## Ezekial (Aug 24, 2012)

Footmax said:


> He had Samehada.



Hmm so he did, either i'm missing something or Kishi is just to inconsistent? although i'm fairly sure my timeline is accurate minus Kisame's age?


----------



## tupadre97 (Aug 24, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> No that's your assumption.
> 
> 1. Tobi said Nagato's eyes are his.  But since he was lying about being Madara any of what he said could be a lie.
> 2. We have a panel and Nagato's word that he awakened his Rinnegan.  Unless that moment just didn't happened.
> ...



Just bcuz he lied about that one thing doesn't mean everything he said is a lie. If that was the case then the story of the older and younger brother must be a lie too. Just accept that Tobi can't be Obito without retconning the story to death.


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## insane111 (Aug 24, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Again it's assumed.
> 
> Nagato said and had a panel showing he awakened his eyes.
> Madara said he gained his eyes before he died.
> ...



There's a reason you're the only person on the entire forums that thinks Nagato's Rinnegan is his own. The reason being that you're wrong. Madara is the only character in the series confirmed to have awakened Rinnegan, and it was made clear that Nagato's eyes were given to him. No further explanation is even necessary on Kishi's part, it's just plain obvious.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 24, 2012)




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## Mistshadow (Aug 24, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> Seems young...



But old enough to know the different perspectives.




> Oh my god! You say that Nagato got Madara's Rinnegan in 2nd world war.
> 
> Also Nagato wasn't with Jiraiya when he awakened his eyes it happned before that.



That was my bad, I didn't have a chance to look at the pages before I went out and typed that in a hurry. Point still stands He didn't have to have given nagato when he was a baby.




> My friend, the limit is your self;
> 
> You can make assumptions but your theory is all assupmtions:
> 
> ...



Didn't have to live alone, perhaps he had this little thing called Zetsu?
When do you believe Madara awakened Rinnegan?
When did Nagato get the Rinnegan, we don't know? What else are we supposed to assume..........
Rin died. Obito loved Rin. I don't blame it all on that, but it could definitely be an addition to it.
Let's go with 2 years, And even if it is 1 year, how is that unbelieveable? MS=SuperPowers, and a handicapped body? How is being composed of ZetsuSenju DNA handicapped, it sure as hell helped Danzo. Makes a  10 year cooldown into a 1 day cooldown on an MS jutsu.
I go with he hates the Uchiha clan because they held practices of killing their best friends and stealing each others eyes. He as Obito would have given his eye to his best friend.
We don't know why bloody mist era began. Anything regarding that is an assumption.
Madara grafting hashirama stuff to his chest. Grew the hashirama clone. Sounds like a scientist to me.






> These are the basic details of your theory and none of them come from a source. They are just assumptions. You have only a body seems like Obito



Well like I said, EVERYTHING is assumptions when it comes to Tobi almost.







> We don't know how old Shishui is but as you see it's *likely *Yagura have been controlled in shishui's era(by Danzo or by Shishui)



likely, sounds like an assumption. What implies that? just because it was the bloody mist? need evidence to debunk an assumption.




> Next:
> 
> In Kage meeting, Raikage claims that Akatsuki founded in Mist village and Mizukage says that it was because Yagura has been controlled.
> 
> ...




RUMORS RUMORS RUMORS. They also said that Danzo planned with Orochimaru as part of Akatsuki to attack the Leaf and kill Saroutobi the 3rd hokage. They were discussing rumors. And it did NOT end when Zabuza was 13-14. It went on as you can see from Haku's life. Zabuza killed those classmates before he was 13-14 because he wasn't even enrolled in the academy when he killed them. He was actually 9. So even though the academy slaughter practice ended, it was still the bloody mist.
Only scene we get of yagura being controlled is AFTER kyuubi attack when Kisame is about TWENTY years old (Kisame is older than Zabuza and Kakashi).
Ibiki looks EXACTLY the same and he is a year younger than Kisame. I believe Tobi controlled him.
But there IS the possibility Madara controlled him then passed it to Tobi.


----------



## Sareth (Aug 24, 2012)

Tobi is the Elder Son of Rikudou in Obito's Zetsu modified body.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 24, 2012)

Well then even if it wasn't compatible for their powers merging. What evidence would there have been that Obito's MS design would override Izuna's then? Why couldn't IZuna's MS design have remained and Obito's never taking effect. And even with the merging of eyes, it doesn't seem you necessarily get the others MS jutsus as we have yet to see Sasuke use 'Tsukuyomi'. And MAdara would have FOUR MS jutsu's aside from susanoo.

It feels like Kishi would make it into a huge convoluted mess in the even that he made the owner of Obito's MS be someone who already had an MS in the past. Especially Izuna for wanting Obito's ordinary 2 tomoe sharingan to begin with when he had collections upon collections he could have trained to MS and used in his VERY long life, but he decided to wait until the 3rd ninja war to get a permanently worn right eye? His left eye we know he uses and tosses when convenient for izanagi cheat deaths.

Additionally Support that the eye wearer is Obito that go along with the one eye. Look at his mask until this 4th shinobi war. ALWAYS one eyed, The reason could be because the left eye sharingans that he used were incapable of being turned off since they are transplants. BUT the right eye he has always allowed to be visible. This works well for when he was pretending to be an ordinary everyday ninja and wanted to hide the fact that he was an Uchiha. I mean he was partners with Deidara of all people, the person who hates the sharingan with a passion, and he never noticed his partner goodboy Tobi had one in his right eye? He probably couldn't see because he would turn it on and off to hide from the Akatsuki members. Now that his ordinary person guise is over, he has no need to hide the left eye, plus for the rinnegan.




Black Mirror said:


> This threadtitle is so full of math ~ XD
> 
> and no it's not proven, it just seems very obvious



I was completely wasted when I made it, I didn't even recall it until just now.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

> Just bcuz he lied about that one thing doesn't mean everything he said is a lie. If that was the case then the story of the older and younger brother must be a lie too. Just accept that Tobi can't be Obito without retconning the story to death.



I never said he lied about everything.  I said that we have a visual panel and word of Nagato that he awakened his eyes and Tobi is an unreliable narrator thus the possiblity that Nagato isn't lying or retared enough not to know his eyes changed.



insane111 said:


> There's a reason you're the only person on the entire forums that thinks Nagato's Rinnegan is his own. The reason being that you're wrong. Madara is the only character in the series confirmed to have awakened Rinnegan, and it was made clear that Nagato's eyes were given to him. No further explanation is even necessary on Kishi's part, it's just plain obvious.



Honestly, your wrong on this. There is no final proof.  If anything using Tobi as a narrator and having a panel with Nagato explaining and showing his eye awakening and then not showing his eyes prior begs that it's a undecided mystery.  Just because everyone has asumptions they're right mean they're right.  You guys fan boy theories and ideas as canon even if the evidence is shakey if enough of your peers go along.  I bet it was canon that Tobi was Madara or Itachi was evil.   Information changes as does the story.

I also never said that Nagato awakened his eyes independantly.  Obviously he would need to be given Uchiha eyes.  I just said it may not be what we assume or were told by Tobi.  Could just be some non-sharingan Uchiha eye implanted, Madara's original eyes, him being Madara's child.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 24, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> But old enough to know the different perspectives.



It's not a big deal



> That was my bad, I didn't have a chance to look at the pages before I went out and typed that in a hurry. Point still stands He didn't have to have given nagato when he was a baby.



My friend, you're the one who claims that Madara gave his eyes to Nagato brat(8-9 years old). So, you're ignoring 8-9 years and I remind you those years because your theory, beside this 9 years, needs an extra 10 years too.

As a result, by only an assumption you cut out  and erase 19 years from history.

This is important because here we're underlining a "short period"...

What ever let's wait for next chapters




> Didn't have to live alone, perhaps he had this little thing called Zetsu?



Where did Madara find Zetsu? A gift from God? If we have an older Zetsu(which I support) that means beside Tobito, not even Madara is the final villain. 

But please don't say that Madara is a scientist



> When do you believe Madara awakened Rinnegan?
> When did Nagato get the Rinnegan, we don't know? What else are we supposed to assume..........



Shortly before he died. When Nagato was an unconscious baby, so neither his father or mother had no idea about his power. So, Nagato had no idea about source of his power.

Shortly means(In general opinion) from some months to a year...

But according to you it's 97 years 




> Rin died. Obito loved Rin. I don't blame it all on that, but it could definitely be an addition to it.



It could be..., I'm always open to assumptions unless people don't form a bridge from long assumptions

Anyway, maybe Obito killed her to gain MS she was his best friend after all.. Or maybe, the one who controls Obito killed her so that Obito gained MS...

But if Rin is important, his family must be important too there is contradiction between judgement of Obito against different cases in your theory.



> Let's go with 2 years, And even if it is 1 year, how is that unbelieveable? MS=SuperPowers, and a handicapped body? How is being composed of ZetsuSenju DNA handicapped, it sure as hell helped Danzo. Makes a  10 year cooldown into a 1 day cooldown on an MS jutsu.



It's 1 year(maximum) not 2 manga says it.

Because we're not talking about an ordinary Ninja, Minato is far greater than we think you'll see



> I go with he hates the Uchiha clan because they held practices of killing their best friends and stealing each others eyes. He as Obito would have given his eye to his best friend.



In Obito's time, Uchiha were a good society. I'm sure Fugaku was a good friend to Minato(May be Jiraiya student check two photos  ) I mean no one stole an eye from other...



> We don't know why bloody mist era began. Anything regarding that is an assumption.



I know it's an assumption but sometimes some evidences support an assumption for ex:

- "Tobi being Obito" is an assumption.. But there are some proofs so Tobi being Obito is more likely then Tobi not being Obito.

- Bloody mist case is same, it's likely started in Yagura's time.



> Madara grafting hashirama stuff to his chest. Grew the hashirama clone. Sounds like a scientist to me.



This is an assumption. Madara stolen Izuna's eyes(Itachi said that) and transplanted it to himself? No, he needs an ally.

Same thing is valid for Hashirama flesh thing too.




> Well like I said, EVERYTHING is assumptions when it comes to Tobi almost.



True but Danzo theory needs only one assumption which is Danzo didn't die




> likely, sounds like an assumption. What implies that? just because it was the bloody mist? need evidence to debunk an assumption.



She says it:







> RUMORS RUMORS RUMORS. They also said that Danzo planned with Orochimaru as part of Akatsuki to attack the Leaf and kill Saroutobi the 3rd hokage. They were discussing rumors. And it did NOT end when Zabuza was 13-14. It went on as you can see from Haku's life. Zabuza killed those classmates before he was 13-14 because he wasn't even enrolled in the academy when he killed them.



Time line friend:

Read the manga, Kakashi says before 10 years ago Bloody mist ended with Zabuza killing 100 children. He(Zabuza) was then 26 years old so before 10 years it makes 16 but since Zabuza told Naruto that he was same age with Naruto. It makes 13-14 years old.

 He was actually 9. So even though the academy slaughter practice ended, it was still the bloody mist.
Only scene we get of yagura being controlled is AFTER kyuubi attack when Kisame is about TWENTY years old (Kisame is older than Zabuza and Kakashi).
Ibiki looks EXACTLY the same and he is a year younger than Kisame. I believe Tobi controlled him.
But there IS the possibility Madara controlled him then passed it to Tobi.[/QUOTE]

People called there Bloody Mist because of the ninja exam. 

You've only seen that Yagura has been controlled you don't know when it started.

I've forgotten to add this:



Did Obito lost his right arm too?


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 24, 2012)

Since I'm going with the assumption that the readers WILL be able to recognize who Tobi is when that mask comes off before Kakashi begins blurting it out, (I think Kishi purposely hides his face because it's someone we will be able to recognize. Why else hide his face when he's alone with Zetsu?) it has led me to notice something strange. 

Tobi never tried to take his mask off until after Izuna's face was shown in the manga. Why didn't he try to do it before? Perhaps it's because we hadn't seen Tobi's real face yet and we wouldn't be able to recognize him if he did.


----------



## principito (Aug 24, 2012)

AoshiKun said:


> Sorry OP but this makes zero sense because you're going against manga facts like Nagato awakening his own Rinnegan, etc.
> 
> Let me tell you something: Obito = Tobi only works *if Kishi screw a lot of things* he said so it will be a retcon. Just read the manga carefully and you will realise that.



That wouldnt be the first.

but about manga facts, Tobi said HE gave Nagato his eyes... but Nagato never mentioned any of it..... which means Tobi is a fucking liar... so what makes people think every thing he says is canon?



Moon~ said:


> *Nagato's eyes belong to Madara*, there is no wrong in there.
> I am just waiting manga facts for Minato fight, thass'all



Yet Nagato awakened his rinnegan by himself right?



Ezekial said:


> Hmm so he did, either i'm missing something or *Kishi is just to inconsistent?* although i'm fairly sure my timeline is accurate minus Kisame's age?



Lol u just realized that now?



Raventhal said:


> Madara loses to Hashirama many years ago but gets some of his wood juice.
> 
> .



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA that's all I could make of the OP


----------



## Marsala (Aug 24, 2012)

The timeline is a hideous mess, particularly the early history of the villages (not enough time for Hashirama, Madara, and Tobirama to do all of their stuff in Hiruzen's early childhood), the Uchiha massacre (was Itachi 11 or 13 and why did he look at least 15 either way?), and the Bloody Mist (how could the village have gotten that reputation in a short time and how could Tobi have been responsible, along with Zabuza and Kisame's ages and histories). In fact it's such a mess that it makes a very poor argument against the plausibility of Tobi = Obito.

The *only* valid timeline argument against Tobi being Obito is the origin of Nagato's Rinnegan. If Madara really did awaken Rinnegan shortly before his death, had them given to kid Nagato, and knew Tobi, then it is impossible for Tobi to be Obito. Tobi being Obito requires that either Nagato gained Rinnegan BEFORE Madara did (incredibly unlikely) or that Madara gave his eyes to Nagato and hung around for at least 10 years more to meet Tobi/Obito (a big stretch, since he'd have little motive for doing so and 10 years isn't "shortly before my death").

Note that all of the problems with Tobi = Obito go away entirely if Tobi was Madara's partner who helped him give the Rinnegan to Nagato and later possessed Obito's body.


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 24, 2012)

Good logic But the body is likely Obito And it fits to your logic


----------



## Scizor (Aug 24, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He didn't say he found it.
> 
> 
> Kakashi asked where he got it and he answered "@ the bridge."
> ...



My point exactly: he got it at the bridge (my apologies for the way I worded it).

And I didn't take it he was referring to awakening it. I'm not saying you're wrong, as it would be a way to correct that statement later on, but it does seem to be a stretch as Kakashi was explicitly asking him where he got that eye (not eyes). Taking eyes is used all the time in this manga, as we all know, so suddenly referring to awakening an eye when it was clearly about that other aspect of the manga (to me).


----------



## Kobe (Aug 24, 2012)

OP's timeline doesn't make sense so I'll just ask a general question. What about them wrinkles? or Tobi calling Konan a child? How does it fit in Tobito theory? There are many plot holes if it were to be the case. But the eye thing and Tobi learning Kakashi's past could be explained very easily.


----------



## Jiraiya4Life (Aug 24, 2012)

I agree with OP, Obito is the only valid option right now. If it is Izuna, Kishi will have some sharingan lessons to teach us.


----------



## Neelix (Aug 24, 2012)

You went to the bar, got drunk so you end up thinking Tobi is 100% Obito.

Now, it makes sense.


----------



## Marsala (Aug 24, 2012)

Kobe said:


> OP's timeline doesn't make sense so I'll just ask a general question. What about them wrinkles?



Scars from the rock, of course. Notably they only appear on the right side of Tobi's face.


> or Tobi calling Konan a child? How does it fit in Tobito theory?


This is a bigger problem; it could be explained by Tobi still sticking to the "I'm Madara" lie or to thinking of everyone else who doesn't share his views as children (like Sasuke calling Naruto a child).

But it makes much more sense if Tobi is someone else possessing Obito. Orochimaru is certainly fond of calling people younger than himself children...


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 24, 2012)

Neelix said:


> You went to the bar, got drunk so you end up thinking Tobi is 100% Obito.
> 
> Now, it makes sense.



I know, my mind works awesome that way, Cool isn't it.


----------



## Kobe (Aug 24, 2012)

> Scars from the rock, of course. Notably they only appear on the right side of Tobi's face.


Scars from the rock? Cmon. Those are your regular old-age wrinkles and bags.


> This is a bigger problem; it could be explained by Tobi still sticking to the "I'm Madara" lie or to thinking of everyone else who doesn't share his views as children (like Sasuke calling Naruto a child).
> 
> But it makes much more sense if Tobi is someone else possessing Obito. Orochimaru is certainly fond of calling people younger than himself children...


fair enough, Tobi is a liar, but it was in the heat of the moment when he said it and it doesn't make any sense for him to call Konan, who's arguably older than him if he was Obito, a child.. But let's say he was still acting as Madara.

However,

if you look at where Tobito theory stands on - resemblence of hair, the eye and him knowing Kakashi's past, those things could be explained easily like you refuted my claims.

- In a manga in which eye trade and posessing extra eyes are common, it's very possible for Tobi to get a hold of Obito's eyes via Zetsu or himself.
- Zetsu reported pretty much every fight to Tobi, and some of them were recorded. It's not a stretch to say that Zetsu, knowing that Kakashi holds the other eye sent a White Zetsu to observe him. It should be noted that at this point Kakashi is the only non-Uchiha to have sharingan. So it is unique and intriguing.
- Spiky hair can be explained too if Izuna or any other Uchiha candidate short hair looked like that.


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 24, 2012)

*Breaking it Down...Objectively.*

Ok, so I was thinking about it all day and I decided to play Devil's Advocate and try to make myself think in the perspective of Tobito supporters and the end I came up with some lists:

*Why It's Highly Plausible that it's Obito:*
-Most likely does not have an EMS as his eye was shown to be the exact same as Kakashi's in the latest chapter, meaning this is the *original* eye.

-The constant taunts made specifically for Kakashi.

-The parallelism between Kakashi Gaiden and this current fight.

-The similar physical features such as hair and "Zetsu" like goo where Obito's body was crushed.


*Positive Effects of Tobi being Obito*
-Intense drama for Kakashi.

-Possible closure on the Rin-Kakashi-Obito storyline including how Rin died.

-Explanation on how and why Kakashi got Mangekyo Sharigan.

-Builds upon the build up for Tobi being Obito for a good climax.


*Negative Effects of Tobi being Obito*
-Lack of surprise.

-The high possibility for plot holes in the explanation on the whole Tobi situation (Not saying there IS plot holes, I'm simply saying there's a high possibility).

-Tobi/Obito would likely be another victim of Naruto's famous TNJ.

-Obito's turn to the "dark side" will probably have a forced and unreasonable explanation (such as him simply going mad because Rin died).



So looking at all this, I've come to two conclusions. Tobi will likely be Obito, it's nearly 100% and I will finally throw out my pride and congratulate Tobito theorists (well at least the ones that have been theorizing this since way earlier, not the most recent band-wagoners). Regardless though my second conclusion will be that the negatives will end up outweighing the positives. Essentially speaking, I don't feel like this will be executed well (I'm not saying it CANT be executed well) but we've already received proof. 

Kishi already butchered any sort sort of reveal. Now I know you all are gonna say that "Since when was this supposed to be huge reveal?!" but it's only *natural* that people will want an exciting and eventful scene where the mask comes off and everyone is in shock because it's been the longest running mystery in the entire manga! If it ends up being Obito, no one will be surprised. Now the second rebuttal will be "Well Kishi had to set it up so that people don't think it's an asspull". And I actually *agree*, the problem though is that this could have been done without making it so obvious. If Tobi ends up being Obito, last chapter pretty much already told us he was. So based on how Kishi has already handled this mask situation I'm assuming that there will continue to be negatives and this won't be handled well. 

DO NOT TAKE THIS AS SOME SORT OF DAMAGE CONTROL. This is merely my opinion, I'm not saying this can't end up good, I'm simply saying that I think there's a good chance that this won't be handled well, and this goes to even if Tobi is not Obito.

tl;dr - I'll finally admit that Tobi is most likely Obito, though I highly doubt it will be handled correctly (though Kishi could definitely surprise us and we can all be happy  )


----------



## Marsala (Aug 24, 2012)

Kobe said:


> However,
> 
> if you look at where Tobito theory stands on - resemblence of hair, the eye and him knowing Kakashi's past, those things could be explained easily like you refuted my claims.
> 
> ...



It's more than that. Tobi was suspiciously similar to Obito from the very beginning. The hair, the orange mask, the clumsy goofy personality, the one-holed mask, the *name*... and now Kakashi is freaking out over the possibility. Obito (including the "possessed" Tobito theory) is by far the leading candidate for Tobi. In fact, the strongest argument against Tobi having Obito's face is that it's now TOO obvious.


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## Marsala (Aug 24, 2012)

How do you feel about Tobi being someone else possessing Obito's body and using his memories and personality against Kakashi, sort of like what Aaroniero did with Shiba Kaien in Bleach?

This could allow a further twist to Tobi's identity even after the mask comes off. Sasuke is oddly irrelevant if Tobi is purely Obito... why did Obito care about him, anyway?


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## Arya Stark (Aug 24, 2012)

I always thought about Obito and knowing Kishi it was the most possible for me. But then he revealed himself as Madara and I easily fell for bait. I was still supporting the "eye theory" but fully Obito...Especially after Minato fight I was _so_ sure.

I really do understand why people don't support it, I myself very confused about some parts of time-line.
But this was planned by Kishi for so long, I'm sure he has valid reasons and a good explanation by now.

If he doesn't have...Well, I never had high hopes to begin with.


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## Petbottle (Aug 24, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Madara and Izuna were the first two to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan, it is highly unlikely that they were even aware of what could come about through such an exchange.


The first that were widely know (actually only Madara was widely know - there is no history of Izuna besides what Itachi and Tobi said about him - but those things were the direct opposite of each other). There may be many more Uchiha before Madara and Izuna, and they might have awakened their Mangekyou, but choose to hide it.

We know that the Uchiha Stone Tablet has only information readable with the MS, and we know from Madara-Kabuto conversation that one part of it is how to obtain the Rinnegan. There might be very well information on how to get the EMS. So assuming that the Uchiha Tablet was written by someone living before Madara, for example the elder son of 6 path, that sounds reasonable.


SaiST said:


> Madara was desperate, and took Izuna's Mangekyou Sharingan so he could continue to fight for the clan.


That's Itachis Story that Madara took the Eyes. Tobis Story is that Izuna gave his Brother the Eyes out of his free will. 



> If it is Izuna, Kishi will have some sharingan lessons to teach us.


What lessons? Obito would only have a normal MS, and Izuna having Obitos MS would also only have an normal MS. Why? Because Izuna gave or lost his Eyes to Madara.


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## ShenLong Kazama (Aug 24, 2012)

Wait until wednesday before posting this stupid threads.


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## Kobe (Aug 24, 2012)

There is another thing. Why didn't Minato recognize Obito's voice? As far as we know from the manga, voice stays similar as in Itachi's case. (at least in anime)

I wouldn't say Obito is the leading candidate, more like it has more supporters.

I'd say the leading candidate is just him being nobody we know. No one can refute that if that was the theory. Then I'd say myself that he could be Izuna having acquired Hashirama's cells via his brother but he didn't have eyes, and eye collecting makes sense. Also him claiming Rinnegan as his own would also make sense. Other cases I don't give much chance but he could also be Fugaku, having disappeared in Kyuubi attack, and it also serve plot purposes as he fills the Minato's contemporary enemy.

And at last, trying to flip Obito as one of the possible final villain would be just bad writing at least If I were the author of this manga. Obito was a pure nice guy, not much talent but he did have heart and showed that he'd pick his comrade over the mission. I just can't accept him becoming the hot shit in a matter of 4-6 years and challenging Minato.


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## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 24, 2012)

> How do you feel about Tobi being someone else possessing Obito's body and using his memories and personality against Kakashi, sort of like what Aaroniero did with Shiba Kaien in Bleach?



This would actually be quite nice and plausible. However, something I've been thinking is why does Tobi STILL have the mask on even though everyone knows he's not Madara? In fact, if he was Obito (or at least using the body), shouldn't he have taken off the mask in order to completely mentally decapitate Kakashi?




> If he doesn't have...Well, I never had high hopes to begin with.



Lol I think that's my problem, I had WAY too high hopes to start out with.


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## Marsala (Aug 24, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> This would actually be quite nice and plausible. However, something I've been thinking is why does Tobi STILL have the mask on even though everyone knows he's not Madara? In fact, if he was Obito (or at least using the body), shouldn't he have taken off the mask in order to completely mentally decapitate Kakashi?



Psychological advantage of being unknown. His opponents are distracted with the mystery of his identity. Naruto was more eager to smash the mask than he was to land a possibly killing blow on Tobi.

Plus the mask is ridiculously durable and provides an additional layer of physical protection. A Rasengan to the face might have killed Tobi, but the mask should absorb enough of the force to make it non-lethal.


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## Chibason (Aug 24, 2012)

Its very possible that he is Obito now...but I still think it could be handled properly by Kishi..lets wait and see


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## Footmax (Aug 24, 2012)

The fact that Kakashi thinks about Obito in this chapter (without mentioning his name), that he says it's not possible really made it obvious that Tobi is certainly Obito.
When a manga character is in denial about something, it usually turns out to be true. Also, I don't imagine Kakashi saying "He's not Obito after all !" after all those hints.


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## Arya Stark (Aug 24, 2012)

Kobe, I see where you are coming from and I also disagree with some parts of OP's timeline but the reveal *must* have dramatic effect and Kishi gave all  the hype to Obito. This screws everything over. We should wait for the flashback sequence. Obito's fall can be used very good.


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## SaiST (Aug 24, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> Well then even if it wasn't compatible for their powers merging. What evidence would there have been that Obito's MS design would override Izuna's then? Why couldn't IZuna's MS design have remained and Obito's never taking effect.


Because it was Obito's eye—his ocular power—to begin with?

Honestly, the other scenario is just as likely. We haven't seen any examples of incompatible Mangekyou Sharingan exchanges between Uchiha.



> _And even with the merging of eyes, it doesn't seem you necessarily get the others MS jutsus as we have yet to see Sasuke use 'Tsukuyomi'._


Key word being _"yet"._ Sasuke hasn't had much time to familiarize himself with the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, but we know that Sasuke could feel Itachi's ocular power, which Tsukuyomi is a part of, flowing into him upon the transplant's completion. Madara also spoke of inheriting Izuna's ocular power.

Also, I suspect that mastering the donor's ocular powers may be the key to Susanoo's further development, culminating into the massive Bijuu-rivaling construct of chakra we saw Madara using against the Gokage:

​


> _And MAdara would have FOUR MS jutsu's aside from susanoo._


Well, assuming they didn't share any ocular powers to begin with, as Sasuke 'n Itachi did.

Though many suspect that he possesses Tsukuyomi, we have yet to see Madara make use of any of those Mangekyou Sharingan techniques besides Susanoo.



> _It feels like Kishi would make it into a huge convoluted mess in the even that he made the owner of Obito's MS be someone who already had an MS in the past. Especially Izuna for wanting Obito's ordinary 2 tomoe sharingan to begin with when he had collections upon collections he could have trained to MS and used in his VERY long life, but he decided to wait until the 3rd ninja war to get a permanently worn right eye? His left eye we know he uses and tosses when convenient for izanagi cheat deaths._


I agree, this is why I said it bodes well for the Tobito crowd. It was one thing when we were all theorizing that Izuna could have finally found himself a compatible eye to use for an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan; it would've explained a lot of what you just brought up. But now... While it may still be possible that it's Izuna using Obito's eye, it's very slim. :/


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## Jiraiya4Life (Aug 24, 2012)

Tobi is Sasuke


*Spoiler*: __ 



Sasuke Sarutobi that is


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## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> Ok, so I was thinking about it all day and I decided to play Devil's Advocate and try to make myself think in the perspective of Tobito supporters and the end I came up with some lists:
> 
> *Why It's Highly Plausible that it's Obito:*
> -Most likely does not have an EMS as his eye was shown to be the exact same as Kakashi's in the latest chapter, meaning this is the *original* eye.
> ...



Lol, I converted a while back.  I think Kish changed his plans with Tobi at some point.  I think he was supposed to be Tobi then Obito.  Not Tobi/Madara/Nobody/Obito.

But I realized with all the dreaming and fan fiction for characters with 2 panels or other crazy ideas I was ignoring Obito.  

Almost every big reveal in this manga has changed the timeline/story.  I don't know why people assume just because Tobi's been going on so long that it won't change the story.  

Look at Itachi's story changed him from evil guy to tool of Danzo and a rebellious clan and Sasuke's sharingan awakening for the first time changed.  Tobi is Madara established that Madara didn't die at VOTE and was alive now(though Tobi was fraud).


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## Kobe (Aug 24, 2012)

Revelation of Tobi's identity doesn't have to be that dramatic. Kishi already achieved what he intended to do by directing everyone and their mothers to Tobi = Obito case. In Bleach, who expected Aizen to be the villain until it was revealed? Most people had suspicions about Gin. Aizen was nobody. I mean Tobi being Izuna or Fugaku (especially him, much more than Obito who is just a nobody compared to clan's head and Sasuke's dad) can still show its impact in long term. In short term some people will of course be disappointed because they were led to believe Tobi was Obito to begin with. But not everything is as it seems.


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## Shadow050 (Aug 24, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> OKAY, So I went out to the bars tongiht with some friends, I drank a lot, and thought about my personal theory along with some counters, and you know what, I accidentally proved that the man behind the mask being Obito is 100% true and there is NO alternative.
> 
> I'll Explain:
> 
> ...



if izuna lost or gave his eye to madara... and then got obito's it would only be the design of obito because there isn't another sharingan to blend with.

same goes for anyone else.

the eye is 100% proven to be from Obito... but nothing else is actually "proven"


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## Arya Stark (Aug 24, 2012)

This is possibly the last fight of Tobi, I don't believe he has a long run like Aizen anymore.


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## SaiST (Aug 24, 2012)

Petbottle said:


> The first that were widely know


True. Unless they were inscribed by Madara, or any of the other Mangekyou Sharingan wielders that came after him, someone would have had to use it before him in order for it's abilities to be detailed on the stone tablet left behind by Rikudou Sennin.

Many even suspect that the elder son of Rikudou Sennin may have possessed—if not the Rinnegan—the very first Mangekyou Sharingan.



> _We know that the Uchiha Stone Tablet has only information readable with the MS, and we know from Madara-Kabuto conversation that one part of it is how to obtain the Rinnegan. There might be very well information on how to get the EMS._


Possible, but still unknown at this point.


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## Reddan (Aug 24, 2012)

Hexa said:


> It's probably sometime after the Wave arc that this happens.  Zabuza was gathering funds for another try at a coup.


You are right, it probably happened around the same time. That's the ultimate tragedy about Zabuza and Haku. Zabuza was literally months away from going back a hero. I reckon Zabuza and Haku are probably revered as great heroes in the Mist.


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## Kobe (Aug 24, 2012)

Kakashi is at his limit, Gai is useless, Naruto and Bee can't do much. I'm willing to bet he at least pulls Ten Tails before getting beaten by PnJ.. but we'll see. I expect a Madara - Tobi - Naruto confrontation at the very least, then Sasuke crashing the party.


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## Petbottle (Aug 24, 2012)

SaiST said:


> It was one thing when we were all theorizing that Izuna could have finally found himself a compatible eye to use for an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan


Who says that Izuna even wanted or needed an EMS? For the Moon Eyes plan, he needs a Rinnegan, and he has that. 

Tobi (or Izuna) needed eyes whose power are a perfect fit to fulfill the moons eye plan, and a space-time jutsu is about the most perfect defense you can have, while the tailed beasts do the fighting.

Tobi has a huge rye collection. He wanted Shisuis Eyes, he knew that one was with Danzou and the other was with Itachi. He was pissed he couldn't get them. He also showed interest in the MS power from Sasuke during the Sasuke-Danzou fight. If he collected Obitos eyes, that would at least explain why he knows so much about Kakashi. He was simple keeping track of where the other Obito eye was.


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## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Scars from the rock, of course. Notably they only appear on the right side of Tobi's face.
> 
> This is a bigger problem; it could be explained by Tobi still sticking to the "I'm Madara" lie or to thinking of everyone else who doesn't share his views as children (like Sasuke calling Naruto a child).
> 
> But it makes much more sense if Tobi is someone else possessing Obito. Orochimaru is certainly fond of calling people younger than himself children...





Kobe said:


> There is another thing. Why didn't Minato recognize Obito's voice? As far as we know from the manga, voice stays similar as in Itachi's case. (at least in anime)
> 
> I wouldn't say Obito is the leading candidate, more like it has more supporters.
> 
> ...



It's not really surprising really.

Obito is Naruto gone wrong.  Another Uchiha given into revenge and hatred curse.  

You think it's odd that no talent Obito can take on Minato after getting MS but it's not odd that no talent Naruto is taking on Tobi after a few years?  

Naruto was actually less talented than what we saw of Obito.  Obito could do the Uchiha fire jutsu's and when he awakened his sharingan kept up with Kakashi who was a genius jounin at the time.  Naruto couldn't make a single shadow clone when he started.  

Tobi's power largely comes from a hax power that makes him untouchable.  It's not like he's flipping out with 100 jutsu's and blowing up mountains.  He teleports himself and people and goes intangible and uses his sharingan precog.


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## Arya Stark (Aug 24, 2012)

Kobe said:


> Kakashi is at his limit, Gai is useless, Naruto and Bee can't do much. I'm willing to bet he at least pulls Ten Tails before getting beaten by PnJ.. but we'll see. I expect a Madara - Tobi - Naruto confrontation at the very least, then Sasuke crashing the party.



This is how I see aswell, regardless of who Tobi is.


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## Reddan (Aug 24, 2012)

Marsala said:


> The timeline is a hideous mess, particularly the early history of the villages (not enough time for Hashirama, Madara, and Tobirama to do all of their stuff in Hiruzen's early childhood), the Uchiha massacre (was Itachi 11 or 13 and why did he look at least 15 either way?), and the Bloody Mist (how could the village have gotten that reputation in a short time and how could Tobi have been responsible, along with Zabuza and Kisame's ages and histories). In fact it's such a mess that it makes a very poor argument against the plausibility of Tobi = Obito.



Don't agree with this at all. Madara and Hashirama were doing things getting the village established for some time. It takes time to negotiate with the Feudal Lord, gain the funds, bring everyone together etc. If Madara and Hashirama started doing this 72 years ago, it would take them 5 years before it was sorted. Which is around the 60 odd years ago the village was founded.

I would imagine Hashirama died maybe 5 years or after the villages foundation. Maybe 60 years ago. Tobirama takes over for the next 14 or so years and puts the infrastructure in place.

There is no mess up with Itachi's timeline. He was 11 when he helped kill Shishui and first started meeting Madara. He was 13 when he finally killed the clan. A few weeks before Sasuke turned 8.

Who said the Mist village got their reputation in a short period of time? At the very least Madara was controlling Yagura for 18 years. 


> The *only* valid timeline argument against Tobi being Obito is the origin of Nagato's Rinnegan. If Madara really did awaken Rinnegan shortly before his death, had them given to kid Nagato, and knew Tobi, then it is impossible for Tobi to be Obito. Tobi being Obito requires that either Nagato gained Rinnegan BEFORE Madara did (incredibly unlikely) or that Madara gave his eyes to Nagato and hung around for at least 10 years more to meet Tobi/Obito (a big stretch, since he'd have little motive for doing so and 10 years isn't "shortly before my death").


It's not a stretch at all. In all likelihood the long haired masked man is the real Madara. He has the same pose, carries a sword, has bandages on his chest and the long hair. 


> Note that all of the problems with Tobi = Obito go away entirely if Tobi was Madara's partner who helped him give the Rinnegan to Nagato and later possessed Obito's body.


I don't think Tobi was Madara's partner, but Madara himself, who possessed Obito. However, it is definitely Obito acting now, fully aware and in full control of his actions.


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## Unilife (Aug 24, 2012)

As stated before, Tobi potentially being Obito is too obvious. Obviously Kishi is trying to set up a red herring. If it isn't, well then pshhh. Either way, Tobi could be Obito or Kagami.


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## SaiST (Aug 24, 2012)

Thing is, despite how powerful of an ability Obito's Kamui is, it wouldn't do much to explain why he was so concerned with using that eye alone, why his masks were designed around it up until he acquired the Rinnegan. Even if he desired to keep it for it's power, why not make use of the other ocular powers granted by the rest of the _"powerful eyes"_ he's been hoarding all these years?... Besides Izanagi, of course.

And it wasn't necessarily about Izuna *needing* the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, but having that sole eye be an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan explaining how he's been able to use Kamui with such nonchalance for the better part of two decades.


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## Kobe (Aug 24, 2012)

Naruto had immense chakra reserve, capable of pulling TKB and huge ass summons. Also yeah the Kyuubi thing. Let's not compare Obito with Naruto here.

Obito didn't even awaken his two tomoe sharingan until  he was 13. Am I supposed to believe that he would have the potential Itachi had or Sasuke had if he were to continue from there? Hatred? Why? He seemed like he was just going to die peacefully there. What could he possibly hate that he'd declare war on Konoha?


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## T-Bag (Aug 24, 2012)

dont wry about it aint him


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## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

Kobe said:


> Naruto had immense chakra reserve, capable of pulling TKB and huge ass summons. Also yeah the Kyuubi thing. Let's not compare Obito with Naruto here.
> 
> Obito didn't even awaken his two tomoe sharingan until  he was 13. Am I supposed to believe that he would have the potential Itachi had or Sasuke had if he were to continue from there? Hatred? Why? He seemed like he was just going to die peacefully there. What could he possibly hate that he'd declare war on Konoha?



Lol, Naruto was horrible and the worst ninja in his class.  Your talking about stuff that happened down the line and he was the same age as Obito.

What do you mean Obito didn't have potential?  Both sharingan's in this battle are his regardless if Tobi is the ramen guy and they're beyond powerful lol.   Your not making sense in that regard.

We don't know what his motivations are.  But dude's body was crushed by rocks, lost an eye, lost his stalking crush.  Rin could have died because of something shady Konoha did and Madara exploited or set it up to begin with.  Or he could have ben sold the Moons Eye plan and came back to show Rin his powers and convince her to join him.  She rejects him and is killed by Obito which awakens his MS.  There are a thousand ways to take it and Kish is a better writer than me.


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## Petbottle (Aug 24, 2012)

SaiST said:


> why his masks were designed around it up until he acquired the Rinnegan.


To pose as Madara, he only had to show his Sharingan. It was simple a mean of showing power. That's why when he got the Rinnegan, he showed it. 

The public knew that only two Uchiha are alive, Itachi and Sasuke. If now a guy with an Sharingan shows up, proclaims he's Madara, and is untouchable by any attack, the mask will have it's effect.



> why not make use of the other ocular powers granted by the rest of the "powerful eyes" he's been hoarding all these years?


Because it would be a waste of power? He had Akatsuki to collect the Bijuus, while he could stay back and watch the Zetsu army hatch.



> having that sole eye be an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan explaining how he's been able to use Kamui with such nonchalance for the better part of two decades.


Hasn't he been space-time jumping with just the normal sharingan up until now? He wasn't using an MS until the latest chapter, so he wasn't using Kamui


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## Kobe (Aug 24, 2012)

oh could have been, should have been. how about concrete facts like how he was presented in manga? awful fan-fiction there.

Yes, Obito didn't have potential. The users of his eyes did. Kakashi was only able to use MS and Kamui in Part 2 long after acquiring the eyes. And dude was basically sharingan master by that time. Tobi clearly knew everything about the potential of the eye and jutsus when he faced Minato.

I'm not talking about the stuff that happened down the line. Wasn't it like in 1st volume that he pulled TKB? He was special to begin with. Other than being Uchiha, Obito was nothing special as proven by manga's special arc.


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## Marsala (Aug 24, 2012)

arednad said:


> It's not a stretch at all. In all likelihood the long haired masked man is the real Madara. He has the same pose, carries a sword, has bandages on his chest and the long hair.


Flat out wrong. Kisame saw long-haired "Madara"'s face, and then when present Tobi revealed his face, Kisame instantly recognized him as the same man.


> I don't think Tobi was Madara's partner, but Madara himself, who possessed Obito. However, it is definitely Obito acting now, fully aware and in full control of his actions.


So Madara was possessing Obito but decided to just... die?


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## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

Kobe said:


> oh could have been, should have been. how about concrete facts like how he was presented in manga? awful fan-fiction there.
> 
> Yes, Obito didn't have potential. The users of his eyes did. Kakashi was only able to use MS and Kamui in Part 2 long after acquiring the eyes. And dude was basically sharingan master by that time. Tobi clearly knew everything about the potential of the eye and jutsus when he faced Minato.
> 
> I'm not talking about the stuff that happened down the line. Wasn't it like in 1st volume that he pulled TKB? He was special to begin with. Other than being Uchiha, Obito was nothing special as proven by manga's special arc.



Lol, how long does it take to use MS powers?  Did Sasuke sit on a training rock shooting black fire and genjutsu at straw dummies or did he just get shoved into battle with the strongest characters in the manga?  ROFL.


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## Kobe (Aug 24, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Lol, how long does it take to use MS powers?  Did Sasuke sit on a training rock shooting black fire and genjutsu at straw dummies or did he just get shoved into battle with the strongest characters in the manga?  ROFL.


In that process Sasuke used Orochimaru and got Itachi's assistance. What would Obito have after he *somehow* survives from those rocks? Why wouldn't he return the village? Madara helping Obito is just an awful fan-fiction as if things just happen by divine intervention.

Just turrible.


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## Reddan (Aug 24, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Flat out wrong. Kisame saw long-haired "Madara"'s face, and then when present Tobi revealed his face, Kisame instantly recognized him as the same man.


Actually this is not true. He recognised Tobi and then mentioned how he goes by Madara now. Kisame knows the truth about Madara. He killed himself to protect that truth.  


> So Madara was possessing Obito but decided to just... die?


Not sure why he died, maybe he was killed. From what we know he was not at full strength, the injuries Hashirama gave him never fully healed. He wanted to be resurrected at his full strength. This is why he gave Nagato the Rinnengan and Tobi constantly mentioned that Rinne Tensei was his/Madara' sake.


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## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

Does Rinne Tensei bring you back at your time of death?  If you die and someone takes your eyes would it clone your eyes and bring you back or would you come back eyeless?


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## NW (Aug 24, 2012)

Obito's really the only one that makes sense. I mean, come on, why give him a completely different hairstyle if he's somebody else. Doesn't Kishi want us to recognize him?



Menacing Eyes said:


> Since I'm going with the assumption that the readers WILL be able to recognize who Tobi is when that mask comes off before Kakashi begins blurting it out, (I think Kishi purposely hides his face because it's someone we will be able to recognize. Why else hide his face when he's alone with Zetsu?) it has led me to notice something strange.
> 
> Tobi never tried to take his mask off until after Izuna's face was shown in the manga. Why didn't he try to do it before? Perhaps it's because we hadn't seen Tobi's real face yet and we wouldn't be able to recognize him if he did.


Or maybe the occasion just never called for it.



Kobe said:


> OP's timeline doesn't make sense so I'll just ask a general question. What about them wrinkles? or Tobi calling Konan a child? How does it fit in Tobito theory? There are many plot holes if it were to be the case. But the eye thing and Tobi learning Kakashi's past could be explained very easily.


The marks on Tobi's face are most likely scars. Also, Tobi was posing as Madara, so of course he'd call Konan a child.



Kobe said:


> Scars from the rock? Cmon. Those are your regular old-age wrinkles and bags.


Wrinkles? They don't look anything like wrinkles.


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## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

Kobe said:


> In that process Sasuke used Orochimaru and got Itachi's assistance. What would Obito have after he *somehow* survives from those rocks? Why wouldn't he return the village? Madara helping Obito is just an awful fan-fiction as if things just happen by divine intervention.
> 
> Just turrible.



To tired to write bad fan fiction.  I am sure the reason revolves around Rin and Madara.


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## Thebaxman (Aug 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> *Wrinkles? They don't look anything like wrinkles.*




Troll detected. Are you going to make up your mind? You said that they do look like wrinkles and that you have even taken other theories in to consideration.

They do look like wrinkles, if boulders were to fall on your face you wouldn't get scars lol. Your face would be crushed you don't get cuts from heavy *boulders* falling on your face


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 24, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> Does Rinne Tensei bring you back at your time of death?  If you die and someone takes your eyes would it clone your eyes and bring you back or would you come back eyeless?



In theory, but Madara's kind of a special case.

Can't really draw any conclusions from his state as an Edo Tensei.


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 24, 2012)

Anonymouse said:


> [sp]
> 
> [/sp]
> 
> Note the last frame. Shouldn't it be *THIRD* time? Or, is he specifically talking about that day alone?



that day alone


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## Mistshadow (Aug 24, 2012)

A: Kishi didn't plan on Kisame knowing the relation he would have with Tobi

B: Kisame was lying because he had to keep a secret from Itachi that he knew 'madara'/Tobi

C: Kisame is 32 years old, I find it hard to believe he had never gone up against an Uchiha before when there were many alive


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## Raventhal (Aug 24, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> In theory, but Madara's kind of a special case.
> 
> Can't really draw any conclusions from his state as an Edo Tensei.



EDO may have different rules than RT.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 24, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> EDO may have different rules than RT.



Yeah, sorry, I read that wrong.


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## NW (Aug 24, 2012)

Thebaxman said:


> Troll detected. Are you going to make up your mind? You said that they do look like wrinkles and that you have even taken other theories in to consideration.
> 
> They do look like wrinkles, if boulders were to fall on your face you wouldn't get scars lol. Your face would be crushed you don't get cuts from heavy *boulders* falling on your face


What are you talking about? When did I say that?!

The marks on Tobi's face look nothing like wrinkles.

Also, they're obviously not the same kind of scars Kakashi has, but more like impressions that the boulder made on his face.


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 24, 2012)

*look what i found on facebook.

Obito and tobi resemblance  


I hope this is prove enough*​


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## SaiST (Aug 24, 2012)

NF → Internet → NF


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## Mistshadow (Aug 24, 2012)

SaiST said:


> NF → Internet → NF



InTeRnEt -> nF -> iNtErNeT -> BeEr


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 24, 2012)

Hey, guys, I found this theory on Youtube about the Uchiha being descended from Tengu!  It explains so much!

It should be more than enough proof on Tobi's identity!


----------



## NW (Aug 24, 2012)

PositiveEmotions said:


> *look what i found on facebook.
> 
> Obito and tobi resemblance
> 
> ...


If anyone denies that Tobi is Obito, especially after this, then they must be on some pretty strong drugs.


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Oh, I've seen that before. Seems pretty far fetched, though.
> 
> If anyone denies that Tobi is Obito, especially after this, then they must be on some pretty strong drugs.



yea i agree it matches him allot


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## son_michael (Aug 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> If anyone denies that Tobi is Obito, especially after this, then they must be on some pretty strong drugs.



that is a thing of beauty


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## Easley (Aug 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> If anyone denies that Tobi is Obito, especially after this, then they must be on some pretty strong drugs.


I'm not on drugs, but their eye shapes don't match in the bottom left comparison! Obito's is more rounded. His eyebrow looks different too. Still, I believe Kishi changed Obito's eye shape in a later chapter.

Yes, resembles Tobi now.


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## NW (Aug 24, 2012)

Easley said:


> I'm not on drugs, but their eye shapes don't match in the bottom left comparison! Obito's is more rounded.


That's only because Obito's eye is half closed! 



> His eyebrow looks different too.


That's because they're going up due to the expression he's making. They're still the same!



> Still, I believe Kishi changed Obito's eye shape in a later chapter.
> 
> Yes, resembles Tobi now.


Looks the same as it did in Gaiden.

I think Kishi just decided to have Obito's eye be more open in that panel. Either that, or it looks a little different because we're viewing it from a different angle.


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 24, 2012)

Easley said:


> I'm not on drugs, but their eye shapes don't match in the bottom left comparison! Obito's is more rounded. His eyebrow looks different too. Still, I believe Kishi changed Obito's eye shape in a later chapter.
> 
> Yes, resembles Tobi now.



thats because he had grown up lol narutos eye changed a bit as well they got smaller lol


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## Mistshadow (Aug 24, 2012)

I could care less about the eye shape argument, because kishi is a human, he makes mistakes, and an angle on the eye is sooooo easy to make different from panel to panel.

But whatever

Link removed
Link removed

Looks CLOSE ENOUGH to me...........


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## Easley (Aug 24, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> That's only because Obito's eye is half closed!


Tobi's eye shape has never looked like that.



> That's because they're going up due to the expression he's making. They're still the same!


You're seeing things!



> Looks the same as it did in Gaiden..
> 
> I think Kishi just decided to have Obito;s eye be more open in that panel. Either that, or it looks a little different because we're viewing it from a different angle.


It's the exact same moment, under the rock! They should be identical! Kishi changed it, which isn't a problem really. A few subtle improvements here and there.



PositiveEmotions said:


> thats because he had grown up lol narutos eye changed a bit as well they got smaller lol


The basic shape doesn't alter.

I think physical comparisons are useless anyway, Kishi is not always consistent.


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## NW (Aug 24, 2012)

Easley said:
			
		

> Tobi's eye shape has never looked like that.






> You're seeing things!


No I'm not. The eyebrows are the same. Eyebrows can change placement depending on the expression. The eyebrows themselves are identical.



> It's the exact same moment, under the rock! They should be identical! Kishi changed it, which isn't a problem really. A few subtle improvements here and there.


No, Obito's eyeshape in Gaiden matches the flashback. Look at the rest of the panels in that compilation. That panel was from right in front of his face, whereas in Gaiden, it was from a lower angle.


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## Easley (Aug 25, 2012)

Still doesn't look like Obito's eye. His were much rounder in Gaiden. Is it so hard to believe that Kishi altered them slightly?



> No I'm not. The eyebrows are the same. Eyebrows can change placement depending on the expression. The eyebrows themselves are identical.


Yes, eyebrows can change placement, but we're comparing two panels of Tobi and Obito which are meant to be similar, but they are not. 



> No, Obito's eyeshape in Gaiden matches the flashback. Look at the rest of the panels in that compilation. *That panel was from right in front of his face, whereas in Gaiden, it was from a lower angle.*


And this is why I usually never argue about eye shapes or any other vague physical similarity. There's no way to make accurate comparisons when there's variables to consider.


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 25, 2012)

Easley said:


> Tobi's eye shape has never looked like that.
> 
> You're seeing things!
> 
> ...



kishi will make mistakes along the way he cant draw everything exactly the same all the time


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## Easley (Aug 25, 2012)

PositiveEmotions said:


> kishi will make mistakes along the way he cant draw everything exactly the same all the time


That's my point. It's futile to compare things which don't stay exactly the same. You can't be sure if it's a mistake or updated art. Eyes are better than hair for comparison, but not by much.


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 25, 2012)

Easley said:


> That's my point. It's futile to compare things which don't stay exactly the same. You can't be sure if it's a mistake or updated art. Eyes are better than hair for comparison, but not by much.



even so you can still tell the difference even if theres a slight chance


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 25, 2012)

I've never advocated using physical similarities as proof because the art style is fluid and constantly changing and what people see is largely subjective (look at all the people who insisted Tobi looked just like Madara).

That said, I think it's fair to say that Tobi does bear a general resemblance to Obito.


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## Jikayaki (Aug 25, 2012)

Moon~ said:


> No.
> 
> 
> No.
> ...



That depends if the design and power of a Mangekyou Sharingan is contained physically in the eye or not. I find it likely that it is so Shisui or anyone for that matter with Obito's eye would showcase the same jutsu and design. Still Shisui makes no sense on at least a few levels.


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## Sound Village (Aug 25, 2012)

To be honest, I ruled Shisui out as soon as I saw this chapter:


Unless of course Tobi enjoys referring to himself in third person, while in a room with no one around except a dead guy. He's never referred to himself in third person before so... I just assumed.

But either way, your theory is irrelevant. It's like you just decided to ignore the rest of that panel where Guy was clearly saying Kakashi.


----------



## Amarillo del Bosque Verde (Aug 25, 2012)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Shisui like about the same age as Itachi?

If that's the case, that means like 6 or 7 years old by the time Tobi made his appearance (already showing Obito's eye powers) during the Kyuubi rampage on the village, so how could he be Tobi!?

Again, I don't know Shisui's exact age, but I always considered him being more or less the same age range as Itachi, but if someone can give me his actual age range in comparison to Itachi that would help a lot.


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## Fuk Nikkas (Aug 25, 2012)

roflwaffle


----------



## Captain Beefheart (Aug 25, 2012)

He would've been a little kid during the Kyuubi attack, so no.


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## Ezekial (Aug 25, 2012)

Are you people seriously confused by this? LMAO I bet your heads exploded during Izanami's explanation


----------



## British Reputation (Aug 25, 2012)

hes obioussslyyyy nottt


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## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 25, 2012)

Nah, that was Gai calling Kakashi. And i doubt Tobi is Shisui, Shisui died, Itachi said that himself.


----------



## Kiss (Aug 25, 2012)

No, he isn't.


----------



## Tharris (Aug 25, 2012)

*You sir are among my favorites.*



First Tsurugi said:


> I've never advocated using physical similarities as proof because the art style is fluid and constantly changing and what people see is largely subjective (look at all the people who insisted Tobi looked just like Madara).
> 
> That said, I think it's fair to say that Tobi does bear a general resemblance to Obito.



Well of course he bears a general resemblance to Obito, all the better for Kishi to mislead you with.


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## Scizor (Aug 25, 2012)

I predict that IF Tobi turns out to be Obito (which I _think_ is the case), people will start to call Tobi's identity a retcon and keep denying it.


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## NW (Aug 25, 2012)

Easley said:


> Still doesn't look like Obito's eye. His were much rounder in Gaiden. Is it so hard to believe that Kishi altered them slightly?


Looks pretty much the same.

And how 'bout these?



> Yes, eyebrows can change placement, but we're comparing two panels of Tobi and Obito which are meant to be similar, but they are not.


I don't think the faces are what should be compared in those two panels, as they're making different expressions, but what you should look at is the parallels in them. With Obito, we see the boulder covering the right side of his face, which was damaged, whereas with Tobi, we see the damaged part (assuming they're scars) and the mask, which looks to have the same texture as the boulder from that view, is covering the undamaged part.



> And this is why I usually never argue about eye shapes or any other vague physical similarity. There's no way to make accurate comparisons when there's variables to consider.


That's why we find which expressions seem to be the same, and compare those to the candidate we are currently discussing.


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## frenchmax (Aug 25, 2012)

*Tobitos, Please enlighten me*

I know by the facts given in the last chapter that a lot hints toward tobito...
I mean, tobi' s goo side, the MS pattern, his comments toward kakshi etc...

At this point, one thing is sure, it is pretty much confirmed that tobi got that eye at the kannabi bridge (mission on which obito was burried by boulders)

Now we have kishi' s interview, telling that madara and tobi KNOW eachother and have some kind of relation. Nothing really special at this point if you take the word "knowing", for just, well they know each other.

Now the relationship between tobi and madara is far more than just "knowing" each other. They both share the same goal, and it is highly probable that tobi wanted to revive madara with nagato' s rinne tensei. Please keep this point in mind.

Another fact to remind is that tobi obviously had a grudge against the uchiha clan, thus helping itachi wiping them out.

Now a short resume of obito: he was said to be weak, even if an uchiha. He was passionate toward his commarades, seemed to be more or less happy and a little bit clumsy like naruto. He also believed sakumo to be a hero for saving his friends. At the end he gave kakashi his eye as a tool to protect the village and the loved ones. He had no real grudge against someone, even at the end of kakashi gaiden he reconciliated with kakashi.

now even ignoring facts like tobi being an adult while fighting minato, tobi being able to control the kyuubi and having mastered kamui, tobi having at this time already a hell lot of knowledge, the timeline concordance being truly fucked up etc.... :

How the hell can you expect obito having been picked up by madara (who would probably not have much time to spent with him because he died), having him evolve his 2 tomoe sharingan into am MS, having him taught how to master kamui this fast, having him taught how to genjutsu and control kyuubi, having him taught how to transplant eyes and probably all the uchiha secrets, having influenced him to the point he would follow madara' s ideals, would hate his clan, would help in wiping it out (call it brainwashing) and abandon his own ideals, dreams and love???

sound to me everything but realistic. I really don' t know how much time madara would have spent with obito but it truly can' t be that much. Sasuke was easily influenced because he already was an avenger, pretty much for at least 8-10 years. Obito never was an avenger and didn' t hate anybody, his clan never was wiped out while he was alive etc...

Now we have already seen that in the narutoverse it is no problem to transplant eyes, cells (which tend to take over one' s body: see white snake and hashirama) we have even seen that it is possible to transplant bodyparts of someone (see shisui' s arm being transplanted on danzou). It is even possible to take over someone' s whole body and mind.

Now seriously, how do you expect tobi to be truly obito in his full mind? I can accept tobi being someone else with obito' s eye, I can accept being somebody with some obito cells. But not tobi being obito turned into this guy.

On top of that, tobi seems to be someone really skilled in influencing people really badly, and I don' t think this fits to obito.

Now while writing, I have another thing to propose you (has already been brought in a lot of time but perhaps you will chang your opinion)

Who was a really skilled uchiha missing his right arm. An uchiha skilled at influencing poeple? An uchiha able to have a grudge toward konoha and his clan? a potential uchiha knowing the secrets of the uchiha tablett?
an uchiha who could have a relation to itachi (as a mentor) and to kakashi?

Ladies and gentlemen, I bring back Shisui for candidate.

-shunshin no shisui (shisui of the body flicker / of the mirage)
-The most skilled in influencing poeple (kotoamatsukami) but probably a given     gift
-Was itachi' s best friend but also slightly older than him and had already a mentor role to itachi back to the konoha time. Tobi was also said to be a mentor to itachi later on
-could explain how he knew how to escape amaterasu' s flames and why he said he was able to keep a few secrets from itachi. To me it is only possible to fool someone like itachi when you know him very well.
-His body went missing but we know that danzou had his right arm implanted
-Was missing his eyes
-Loved peace and gave his eye to itachi, was highly aware that the uchiha planed a coup d' etat, since itachi knew too, which would give him a reason as tobi to wipe out the clan. Loved the village but his eye was stolen by danzou as a mean to bring peace: the rude methods of danzou and danzous way of thinking about the ninja system could have made shisui hate him.
-could explain why he wanted to retrive "shisui' s eye" from danzou, and BTW how he knew the seal danzou used shortly before dying.
-Was in anbu, same as itachi, yamato, AND KAKASHI, which could explain how he knew kakashi' s character.


I could go on like this and I think none of the above meant facts and asumptions could go against a theory like:

Tobi is shisui with obito' s eye. Shishui' s age, knowledge and skills during the kyuubi attack would fit better in the timeline than tobi being obito.
Obito dying with a 2 tomoe sharingan could explain why tobi' s eye is in fact just a regular MS. If I remember well you need to exchange your MS with someone else' s MS to unlock EMS.

Shisui being in anbu with kakashi could make the relation between both. Even more if shisui was to be obito' s brother, I could imagine that shisui would be pissed at kakashi for letting his brother die and on top of that having his eye.

Shisui being an elite ninja, having the necessary trauma to awaken his MS,
having a reason for bringing peace with hard methods, having a reason for knowing and hating kakashi would IMO just perfectly fit.

So what do you guys think now, do you still stick to tobi being obito or do you see a chance for opening you mind toward the above theory?


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## Edo Madara (Aug 25, 2012)

Madara died when nagato still a child, how can madara knew about tobito if obito still shitting his pant or not even born yet that time ?

so people said zetsu saved obito and obito trained in his dimension which slower time and make him grow faster BUT to get that dimension he need to unlocked MS first, how can 13 y/o obito unlocked MS ? if so the guy more genius than itachi


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## frenchmax (Aug 25, 2012)

Edo Madara said:


> Madara died when nagato still a child, how can madara knew about tobito if obito still shitting his pant or not even born yet that time ?
> 
> so people said zetsu saved obito and obito trained in his dimension which slower time and make him grow faster BUT to get that dimension he need to unlocked MS first, how can 13 y/o obito unlocked MS ? if so the guy more genius than itachi



That' s why I deny the idea of tobi being obito. You are right by saying madara died as nagato was a child, and I think Zetsu could make the link. He could have been given a mission from madara

madara creates zetsu, before his death he orders zetsu to take the rinnegan and implant it into an uzumaki to bring back later madara to life. zetsu alone is probably to weak to lead an organization like akatsuki.

One day shisui and zetsu encounter. They make a deal: Zetsu restores his arm, in exchange shisui has to lead nagato toward madara' s original plan, and to lead the organization for the plan to be fullfilled.

But: I' d like to mention that tobi said "I wanted nagato to use rinne tensei for my sake"
We have no guarantee that tobi wanted to follow madara' s original plan and revive him. Madara would be a too dangerous factor in bringing peace, especially because uchiha can possibly break out of muugen tsukyuomi.

What if tobi (shisui) wanted to revive his dead brother obito instead of a berserker like madara?

Tobi saying that the rinnegan was his to begin with could only mean he decided to keep it for himself or to use it for his own personal interrest

Some of you will say, madara said "it must be him" talking about tobi.
does this really confirm that they have ever met? Madara could assume it is the person that zetsu was ordered to find.


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## Arya Stark (Aug 25, 2012)

...Patos, Cheresos.

You're asking something beyond our knowledge, something going to be explained in future chapters, something we have no clue about because you know WE ARE NOT KISHIMOTO, so when we try to write down our assumptions you'll say FANFICTION.Because of this I keep quiet, I'm so tired to write same shit over and over again. Just chill and wait.

Also Shisui doesn't fit timeline either.


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## frenchmax (Aug 25, 2012)

Moon~ said:


> ...Patos, Cheresos.
> 
> You're asking something beyond our knowledge, something going to be explained in future chapters, something we have no clue about because you know WE ARE NOT KISHIMOTO, so when we try to write down our assumptions you'll say FANFICTION.Because of this I keep quiet, I'm so tired to write same shit over and over again. Just chill and wait.
> 
> Also Shisui doesn't fit timeline either.



Just trying the same as you, I want a few people to be a little more open minded and consider other options, instead of spreading a "see I told you tobi is obito"-wank.

could you explain where shisui wouldn' t fit in the timeline?


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## Arya Stark (Aug 25, 2012)

frenchmax said:


> Just trying the same as you, I want a few people to be a little more open minded and consider other options, instead of spreading a "see I told you tobi is obito"-wank.
> 
> could you explain where shisui wouldn' t fit in the timeline?



Well if he turns out not to be Obito you'll laugh harder. Unfortunately he is the most probable candidate.

If I remember correctly Itachi is younger than Kakashi so I assume Shisui is around the same age (correct me if I'm wrong I've been away for long). If Obito, who's older than him doesn't fit time line I see no reason for him.


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## Marsala (Aug 25, 2012)

Shisui is probably about the same age as Obito. He would have had to retrieve Obito's eye and then swap it in and out of his eye socket in the Kyuubi attack. Then he let Danzou steal one eye and gave the other to Itachi for no good reason at all. Then he somehow faked his death but left a convincing body behind in the river.

And unlike Obito, who at least has the whole "left to die before his time, always looked down upon by the Uchiha, Kakashi failed his promise and let Rin die", Shisui has ZERO motive to become Tobi and indeed his inspiration of Itachi would have been a total lie.


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## Easley (Aug 25, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Looks pretty much the same.
> 
> And how 'bout these?


hmm, similar, but not exactly the same. There is enough difference to create some doubt. Eye shapes are too generic for comparison. Kishi draws many characters and inevitably some will be alike. 



> I don't think the faces are what should be compared in those two panels, as they're making different expressions, but what you should look at is the parallels in them. With Obito, we see the boulder covering the right side of his face, which was damaged, whereas with Tobi, we see the damaged part (assuming they're scars) and the mask, which looks to have the same texture as the boulder from that view, is covering the undamaged part.


I see what you mean but that's probably the worst panel for demonstrating it. There's only 2 'lines' and a weak attempt to draw a third. The number of scars/wrinkles, whatever they are, were constantly changing in those chapters. Inconsistent art or mangaka indecision? 



> That's why we find which expressions seem to be the same, and compare those to the candidate we are currently discussing.


Finding expressions that match is easier said than done, and even comparing them doesn't always lead to agreement. People see things the way they want.


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## frenchmax (Aug 25, 2012)

Moon~ said:


> Well if he turns out not to be Obito you'll laugh harder. Unfortunately he is the most probable candidate.
> 
> If I remember correctly Itachi is younger than Kakashi so I assume Shisui is around the same age (correct me if I'm wrong I've been away for long). If Obito, who's older than him doesn't fit time line I see no reason for him.



no, I' m just wondering who he is like anyone and I' m not really fond of bitchslaping people because of false assumptions. He could be so many people I myself don' t know either who he is. That' s why I did not start the thread with a title like "I know who tobi is" or something like that.

shisui' s age is still vague, he was said to be like an elder brother to itachi, so I don' t know the difference of age between both. But even if he turned out to be 1 year younger than obito, let' s not forget that obito died at a young age, while shisui would have went on with living and getting older and taller


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## frenchmax (Aug 25, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Shisui is probably about the same age as Obito. He would have had to retrieve Obito's eye and then swap it in and out of his eye socket in the Kyuubi attack. Then he let Danzou steal one eye and gave the other to Itachi for no good reason at all. Then he somehow faked his death but left a convincing body behind in the river.
> 
> And unlike Obito, who at least has the whole "left to die before his time, always looked down upon by the Uchiha, Kakashi failed his promise and let Rin die", Shisui has ZERO motive to become Tobi and indeed his inspiration of Itachi would have been a total lie.



well, why shouldn't he have swapped? We know that tobi is fond of eye swapping 

Plus, why did shisui give itachi is eye, if people would fight over it? I mean common: Shisui: hey itachi, danzou stole my eye, I' ll give you the other one I just want to die, take care of my eye instead of destroying it.

Probably he was hoping to get them back later on?

the body they found could be a zetsu clone?

Obito found peace before dying and held no grudge towards kakashi or rin, thus giving kakashi his sharingan. And being looked down upon is no reason for wanting to bring peace with all means. Probably he wasn' t pleased to be considered weak but that' s it.

And how do you expect obito to know in the first place of rin' s death? if he had survived and had picked on kakashi and rin, don' t you think he would have told them that he' s alive and would have prevented rin from dying by himself?


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## NW (Aug 25, 2012)

Easley said:
			
		

> hmm, similar, but not exactly the same. There is enough difference to create some doubt. Eye shapes are too generic for comparison. Kishi draws many characters and inevitably some will be alike.


I don't really see any difference in them. Eh. I guess the whole eyeshape argument doesn't really matter. 



> I see what you mean but that's probably the worst panel for demonstrating it. There's only 2 'lines' and a weak attempt to draw a third. The number of scars/wrinkles, whatever they are, were constantly changing in those chapters. Inconsistent art or mangaka indecision?


I'd go with inconsistent art.



> Finding expressions that match is easier said than done, and even comparing them doesn't always lead to agreement. People see things the way they want.


True, we'll only know for sure once the mask comes off.


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## Arya Stark (Aug 25, 2012)

I was re-reading the chapter and I realized it might not have been stalking Kakashi in graveyard _if_ he is Obito;

He was just attending the funeral of Rin with his usual Kamui mod on and he waited till everyone left the place


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## T-Bag (Aug 25, 2012)

there's also the fact kabuto could not find his body, and tobi controlling the 4th mizukage. but i doubt it's him


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## Mantux31 (Aug 25, 2012)

i think Tobi's 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 itachi


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## NO (Aug 25, 2012)

I am calling Obito just to place my bet.

If I am wrong, well, no. I can't be wrong. I'm smart.


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## Raventhal (Aug 25, 2012)

Characters eyes tend to get smaller as they get older and shape does change some.


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## NW (Aug 25, 2012)

Raventhal said:
			
		

> Characters eyes tend to get smaller as they get older and shape does change some.


Well, the basic change doesn't change, but yes, the eyeshape does become smaller and more compact to signify that the character is growth.

And Tobi's eyes are a perfect match of what Obito's eyes would look like when he got older...


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## Mistshadow (Aug 25, 2012)

You know, I have yet to ever hear of a SINGLE answer for any identity that is not Obito on WHY would you take Obito's regular 2 tomoe Sharingan? When Tobi has been shown to have a huge collection at his disposal. And why train THAT specific eye to MS mode. 'Because Kagami is Obito's father' is retarded, so Kagami knew his son was going to die right at that moment? I got nothing for Izuna..............


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## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Aug 25, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> You know, I have yet to ever hear of a SINGLE answer for any identity that is not Obito on WHY would you take Obito's regular 2 tomoe Sharingan? When Tobi has been shown to have a huge collection at his disposal. And why train THAT specific eye to MS mode. 'Because Kagami is Obito's father' is retarded, so Kagami knew his son was going to die right at that moment? I got nothing for Izuna..............


 
From what we have seen so far Tobi knows a lot of things average nins ignore, so it's possible he's acknowledged Obito's particular power and has stolen it.
I'm not sure Obito's eyes were different from the others, but I can't ignore the possibility Obito had an unique doujutsu and Tobi somehow noticed it and chose that eye.
After all Obito's the only Uchiha whose eyes developed Kamui... what's curious is that both his left and right eye can use the same jutsu.


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## bearzerger (Aug 25, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> You know, I have yet to ever hear of a SINGLE answer for any identity that is not Obito on WHY would you take Obito's regular 2 tomoe Sharingan? When Tobi has been shown to have a huge collection at his disposal. And why train THAT specific eye to MS mode. 'Because Kagami is Obito's father' is retarded, so Kagami knew his son was going to die right at that moment? I got nothing for Izuna..............



There is a popular theory that the types Uchiha MS doujutsu are connected to specific family lines. For example only the "main family" has Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi and Susanoo, which would make Sasuke and Itachi descendants of either Madara or Izuna. Shisui's family has Kotoamatsukami amd Obito's family line carries Kamui.


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## Mugivara (Aug 25, 2012)

What had happened to Obito's left arm? Was it destroyed too?


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## NW (Aug 25, 2012)

ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE said:


> From what we have seen so far Tobi knows a lot of things average nins ignore, so it's possible he's acknowledged Obito's particular power and has stolen it.
> I'm not sure Obito's eyes were different from the others, but I can't ignore the possibility Obito had an unique doujutsu and Tobi somehow noticed it and chose that eye.
> After all Obito's the only Uchiha whose eyes developed Kamui... what's curious is that both his left and right eye can use the same jutsu.


But how would he know that Obito's eye had that potential? Just by looking at it?



Mugivara said:


> What had happened to Obito's left arm? Was it destroyed too?


You could apply this to ANY theory. Obito has the most plausible explanation for why he'd have Zetsu goo in him at ALL.


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## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Aug 25, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> But how would he know that Obito's eye had that potential? Just by looking at it?
> 
> You could apply this to ANY theory. Obito has the most plausible explanation for why he'd have Zetsu goo in him at ALL.



Tobi has been shown to be more than an average good observer and seems to know a lot about most shinobi - it's quite surprising he didn't know about Minato's skills before facing him - so I would give a chance to the possibility he recognised a certain potential in Obito's Sharingan, maybe the way Orochimaru saw in Sasuke's eyes more potential than Itachi's back in part one.
(BTW, this may be an explation about Tobi's need for Sasuke and the interest in his development.)


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## Amarillo del Bosque Verde (Aug 25, 2012)

I'm feeling dangerous today, so I will briefly address some of the most popular theories about Tobi's identity and why they are as farfetched and full of holes as a lot of people claim Tobito is.

I will not go in depth, I will just do quick overviews of each theory, bear that in mind!


*Izuna:*


This one may be the most popular overall, and maybe the only one that is not completely nonsensical like some of the other ones people come up with, but its still not free of several issues.

First of all, there's the issue of his age, Izuna would be more than 100 years old by the current date of the manga, so how exactly is he alive and looking young and athletic?

But I can live with the idea that the Super Madara Bros. had access to Orochimaru's Immortality jutsu, so Izuna could be swapping bodies to stay alive like Oro does, but that leaves the glaring question to WHY Madara didnt used it too!?

Okay lets assume for a second that Izuna knows Oro's jutsu and Madara didn't, I can also live with he only being able to get hold of Obito's body as means to get into an Uchiha body, but then why he is so attached to Obito's eye? yeah its a powerfull eye but he has hundreds more that could also be very hax! it seems that he considers the eye he puts on his left side expendable since he has no problem on using it as a escape button out of danger by burning it with Izanagi.

But again, why the attachment to Obito's eye? specially now that he got back the Rinnegan, that are HIS original eyes, he still kept the eye from the random kid instead of his original rinnegan and only replaced his expendable left eye, I mean, really?

Also why he knows so much about Kakashi and his psychological traumas?

Also Izuna's name wasn't even ever mentioned in the manga! and why use a mask if the only person alive that could even have a chance to recognize him is the Tsuchikage? what would be the point to reveal someone NO ONE knows his face or name?

But its still somehow considered the BEST theory... okay then!


*Shisui:*

This one just sucks, I'm sorry but you people cry and moan way too much about how Tobito _"doesnt fit in the timeline! waahh!"_ and yet dare to even consider Shisui being Tobi... COME ON!!

I don't know Shisui's exact age but I always considered him being about the same age as Itachi, if not just a bit older.

By the time Tobi appeared already with Obito's eye and a Zetsu patched body, Itachi was like 6 or 7 years old at best, how old you want Shisui to by this point? 9? 10? 15?, I have news, this one has as many of those darned _"he was too young! how could he measure with Minato!"_ bullcrap the anti-Tobito people bitch about so much, but you support this?!

Also for Tobi to be Shisui he would needed to find Obito in the middle of a fucking war! get his eye, swap it with his perfectly good eye and get himself a patched Zetsu body to go and attack Konoha later, then about 5 years later he needs to put his old eye back on and get rid of the white colored parts of his body (we can assume he can just mimic the skin color like Zetsu does, but Tobi clearly shows having skin colored arms with patches of white Zetsu goo, so we dont know if he CAN for sure, still a possibility though) so he can get his eye stolen by Danzou, give his other eye to Itachi and then drown himself and be found by the other Uchiha dudes without giving away his Zetsu body.

That seems likely!! specially since you consider how bitter was Tobi when he could not get a hold of Shisui's eye when Danzou smashed it before his death.

If the eye was so valuable to him... WHY THE HECK HE GAVE HIS OTHER EYE TO ITACHI IN THE FIRST PLACE!?!? GAH!!!

*breathes in...*


*Kagami:*

Hahaha... seriously... nah... be serious... you can't be... omg are you really pushing this one... for real...?

*blinks*

Pffff... _AHAHAHAH!!! Oh man that's rich!!_ I have seen everything now! all the basis of this this theory seems to be _"OMG!! its a named Uchiha!! he HAS to be EVUL!! !!"_

I don't even know why I bother with this one, we know nothing at all about this dude, but he is an uchiha!! OMG!! any Uchiha that appears in the series could be Tobi*!

_*Except Obito._

But just to comment something about this one, Kagami today would be just as old as the elders, or we could assume that the random Uchiha with like 2 panels in the entire story also has access to a Jutsu it took Orochimaru decades to learn... of course!!

I will include in this section an honorable mention of Rikudo's elder son, cause he is an Uchiha that we know nothing at all about, so he could ALSO be Tobi! can't argue with that logic!


*The Physical reincarnation or Spirit of the 10-Tails:*

COME ON! they told us this shit already!

The Physical form of the Jyuubi its the moon, and its Spirit/Mind/Chakra was turned into the 9 tailed beasts.

Thats all I have to say about that one... jeez...


*Sasuke from the Future:*

AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! OMG!! I... *gasp* I cant breathe...!! AHAHAHAHAHA!!!


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 25, 2012)

Amarillo del Bosque Verde said:


> [sp]I'm feeling dangerous today, so I will briefly address some of the most popular theories about Tobi's identity and why they are as farfetched and full of holes as a lot of people claim Tobito is.
> 
> I will not go in depth, I will just do quick overviews of each theory, bear that in mind!
> 
> ...


i agree with everything you said accept one thing when they first showed tobi itachi was already grown up because when we first saw itachi when naruto was a kid and again itachi was grown up so that means tobi was/is the around the same age as kakashi but ppl refuse to believe so but my guess it would be obito


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## Amarillo del Bosque Verde (Aug 25, 2012)

PositiveEmotions said:


> i agree with everything you said accept one thing when they first showed tobi itachi was already grown up because when we first saw itachi when naruto was a kid and again itachi was grown up so that means tobi was/is the around the same age as kakashi but ppl refuse to believe so but my guess it would be obito



I meant the first time we saw him already *chronologically* showing both Obito's eyes prowess and a zetsu body, as his first appearance showing those traits in the known manga timeline as of today, in that appearance we can see a panel of a very young Itachi carrying baby Sasuke.

But anyway, I dont mean that any of the theories I spoke about in my previous post will not happen, for all we know Kishi can still make Tobi be the son of the sage frog or something!

All I meant is that people dismiss Tobito based on plotholes, and love to pretend the other theories aren't just as plagued with plotholes (some way WAAAY worse!) as Tobito is.


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## Menacing Eyes (Aug 25, 2012)

Amarillo del Bosque Verde said:


> First of all, there's the issue of his age, Izuna would be more than 100 years old by the current date of the manga, so how exactly is he alive and looking young and athletic?


A good deal of Tobi's body consists of Zetsu cells/Hashirama DNA, hence the zetsu goop that pours out of him when he loses limbs.

Link removed

"This confirms that Madara(Tobi) has the cells of the first Hokage. If he was able to cultivate them and create a jutsu to multiply them it also means that he did something to his body as well... *No wonder he could live so long*"



> I can also live with he only being able to get hold of Obito's body as means to get into an Uchiha body, but then why he is so attached to Obito's eye? yeah its a powerfull eye but he has hundreds more that could also be very hax! it seems that he considers the eye he puts on his left side expendable since he has no problem on using it as a escape button out of danger by burning it with Izanagi.
> 
> But again, why the attachment to Obito's eye? specially now that he got back the Rinnegan, that are HIS original eyes, he still kept the eye from the random kid instead of his original rinnegan and only replaced his expendable left eye, I mean, really?


It could be that he views Obito's ability as something equal in value to the Rinnegan's. We can't deny that the intangibility is a pretty damn useful ability. He'd most certainly have a harder time right now without it. It serves as a practical use too, like keeping items in storage or traveling to different places relatively quickly.



> Also why he knows so much about Kakashi and his psychological traumas?


He was there in some way during the battle of Kannabi bridge. Whether he's Obito or not he knows what happened there and has the eye.



> Also Izuna's name wasn't even ever mentioned in the manga!


The readers don't need to know his name, they only need to know what his face looks like and that he's Madara's little brother.



> and why use a mask if the only person alive that could even have a chance to recognize him is the Tsuchikage? what would be the point to reveal someone NO ONE knows his face or name?


What would be the point in revealing Obito if we can't tell who it is without Kakashi and Tobi's confirmation? What would be the point in hiding his face from the readers in those panels of him and Zetsu alone if we can't tell who it is?


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## NW (Aug 25, 2012)

A big hole in all the other Tobi theories besides Obito is that Tobi is YOUNG.

YOUNG.

YOUNG!


*Spoiler*: _Here, let me show you_ 



These pages, among other, show that Tobi's arms were VERY young during his fight his attack on Konoha. Now, tell me, who could have possible been that young during that time?





*Spoiler*: _Something else that shows Tobi is young_ 



*This* is what the side of an elderly person's face looks like (Bottom-Left Panel):

*THIS* is what the side the face of a much younger person, around the age of say... 30 looks like(Middle-Right Panel):

*SEE THE DIFFERENCE?!*


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## Mistshadow (Aug 25, 2012)

I can tell this is KAkashi




I can tell this is Naruto AND Sasuke




I can tell this is NAgato, Yahiko, and Konan



I can tell this is Onoki




Kishi has made it so that if we see the FACES, we can tell who the characters were from being kids, to teens, to young adults, to old


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## PositiveEmotions (Aug 25, 2012)

this question goes for all you non-obito believers.

if tobi does turn out to be obito what would you do?

will you stop reading the manga?​


Amarillo del Bosque Verde said:


> I meant the first time we saw him already *chronologically* showing both Obito's eyes prowess and a zetsu body, as his first appearance showing those traits in the known manga timeline as of today, in that appearance we can see a panel of a very young Itachi carrying baby Sasuke.
> 
> But anyway, I dont mean that any of the theories I spoke about in my previous post will not happen, for all we know Kishi can still make Tobi be the son of the sage frog or something!
> 
> All I meant is that people dismiss Tobito based on plotholes, and love to pretend the other theories aren't just as plagued with plotholes (some way WAAAY worse!) as Tobito is.



yea i do not think obito is one of the son of six paths because do you realize how old they would be if one of them was tobi and iirc (if i remember correctly) orochimaru was the only successful character who made the immortal jutsu happen so i thought it would be the six sage of this paths..

yea in the flash back when tobi attacked konoha yea sasuke was a kid than


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## Abanikochan (Aug 25, 2012)

Gah I'm on the fence. I want to say Obito but it just doesn't make sense.... Then again Kishimoto is full of asspull/retcon tendencies. I JUST DON'T KNOW ANYMORE!


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## Menacing Eyes (Aug 25, 2012)

So uh... does Madara even know that Zetsu exists?



*Bottom panel with Madara talking about Hashirama:*



Geg's Translation of 577 said:


> The only thing you left after you died was the life force of your cells within me.



Sounds to me like he's saying that all that's left of him is what's on his chest at the moment, but is there not a giant Hashirama plant in Tobi's hideout with a Hashirama clone growing out of it? Was there not Zetsu?

If Madara and Tobi know each other then could this mean that Tobi created Zetsu, cultivated the Hashirama cells and grew the shodai plant while Madara was dead? Or is Madara a liar?


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## NW (Aug 25, 2012)

*DAT IZUNA!*

Dat Izuna!


Madara's younger brother is just so epic and badass. Let's take a look at his accomplishments (assuming Tobi is Izuna):

1. Firstly, Izuna can work with his brother even though his brother thinks he's dead! Damn... It must take some serious skill to fool Uchiha Madara!

2. Izuna can defy age! 
*Spoiler*: _Here, let me show you_ 



*These pages, among others, show that Tobi was likely very young when he fought Minato. Or at least... that's how it appeared. I mean, if Zetsu goo can mimic basic arm structure and skin color, it should logically be able to mimic skin texture as well, right?!*



*Spoiler*: _Something else that shows Tobi is young_ 



*This* is what the side of an elderly person's face looks like (Bottom-Left Panel):

*THIS* is what the side the face of a much younger person, around the age of say... 30 looks like(Middle-Right Panel):

*See the difference?*


So, this shows that Izuna can defy the affects of aging!

3. Damn, what a coincidence. So, Izuna just happened to have the exact same color preference as Obito, and also coincidentally had the exact same hairstyle, and just happened to be there at the Battle of Kannabi Bridge stalking Kakashi and Obito! Yep. And once the avalanche started, he was somehow able to squeeze through the tiny gaps between the rocks and retrieve Obito's eye from his body. Than get out of the boulder avalanche without the eye or body or himself getting hurt. And, despite not knowing the capabilities of this sharingan, he favored it over every single other sharingan in his lab, and he somehow magically knew it had the potential to awaken Mangekyou, and took the time to level it up all the way to Mangekyou, even though that would be impossible since he pretty much hated everyone, by that time, right? And Madara was already dead, so that couldn't have been it. So, he somehow was a special exception and broke the rules and requirements for Mangekyou!

4. Oh, and let's not forget how he had to sneak into Konoha to read the stone tablet before the Uchiha Massacre, when he would have had the opportunity to do so long ago! Dat Izuna! Always double checking!

5. This mother fucker took the time out of his life to STALK KAKASHI! He knows Kakashi visits graves! Wow. He must have had just a little sympathy for Obito and stalked Kakashi and make sure he visited his grave every day. What a nice guy!

6. This BAMF wears a mask just to be badass! I mean, what other reason would he have? He looks alot like Madara and I highly doubt anyone is going to notice a few differences.

7. This guy knows how to wear his hair! First he had it long, then cut it short, then grew it long again, then cut it short again! Damn. It's not like that would be too stupid and over complicated to explain or anything. No way! Izuna's just too badass for that!



I mean, just damn! It all makes sense! Everyone would be satisfied if that mask came off to reveal Izuna's face. All this buildup to his identity after he was revealed to not be Madara, and he turns out to be Madara's brother! That's much better than Madara, right? I mean, it's not like we want to see a face that looks very different from Madara's behind the mask, right?!

He wasn't even named in the manga and had no lines whatsoever and was only in about 4-6 panels! Just damn! Dat Izuna!

That's about it, folks. 

Izuna's just so awesome that he needed this whole post dedicated to his epicness!

Let's all celebrate the epicness that is Izuna Uchiha!


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## jgalt7 (Aug 26, 2012)

bet he's sorry now he didn't kill naruto back then, lol.


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## AnimeGreatNinja (Aug 26, 2012)

*TOBITO*

AHAHA shisui

Ever consider how stupid Itachi would look if he was Shisui  kishi loves the guy

Don't know why/how Madara chose Obito

He mindfucks him, Konoha prolly pulled a Kabuto on Rin, Kakashi screws up badly

Possibility it was actually Madara that helped Itachi

Why couldn't Zetsu (under Madara's orders) have helped Obito prep for the invasion step by step, including how to fight Minato, how to deal with Kyuubi, etc. Huge stretch now, wait till we see his backstory then my guess is it will make sense in hindsight. And we don't know Zetsu's history yet, bit of a wildcard.

I just like how he's like Naruto turned evil, this panel did it for me


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## jgalt7 (Aug 26, 2012)

gonna go out on a limb here and say shisui, cause naruto sort of knows him from itachi and naruto has no idea who the fuck obito is......but black zetsu half is beginning to look appealing....


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## LelouchIsZero (Aug 26, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> You know, I have yet to ever hear of a SINGLE answer for any identity that is not Obito on WHY would you take Obito's regular 2 tomoe Sharingan? When Tobi has been shown to have a huge collection at his disposal. And why train THAT specific eye to MS mode. 'Because Kagami is Obito's father' is retarded, so Kagami knew his son was going to die right at that moment? I got nothing for Izuna..............



Obito died before the Uchiha massacre ... which one would presume that Tobi received his "huge collection" from that incident.


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 26, 2012)

Some observant people over at Narutobase dug these up.







Note the title in the third picture.

An interesting coincidence.


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## Grendel (Aug 26, 2012)

Abanikochan said:


> Gah I'm on the fence. I want to say Obito but it just doesn't make sense.... Then again Kishimoto is full of asspull/retcon tendencies. I JUST DON'T KNOW ANYMORE!



I don't understand how people could think this in anyway would be an asspull or a retcon considering that the Kakashi Gaiden was included BEFORE the start of part 2 and the introduction of Tobi.

If (and he verly likely is) Tobi is Obito then Kishi had this planned before the start or part 2 which is why the Kakashi Gaiden is the only one we have been shown...and why we never learned what happened to rin and so on...

I think people here use those two too loosely to describe things they don't see coming in the manga...


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## First Tsurugi (Aug 26, 2012)

Obito and the influence he had on the manga existed long before Kakashi Gaiden, when we were formally introduced to his character.

This twist could potentially have been in the works since the very beginning of the manga, though I doubt Kishi thought that far ahead so early.


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## son_michael (Aug 26, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Obito and the influence he had on the manga existed long before Kakashi Gaiden, when we were formally introduced to his character.
> 
> This twist could potentially have been in the works since the very beginning of the manga, though I doubt Kishi thought that far ahead so early.



that cover of naruto with and the 2 pictures on his desk seems to suggest kishi had it all planned out.

"who are you?"

with a picture of obito to the left and naruto to the right


notice how obito is in sasuke's position and kakashi is in naruto's. then the obvious "who are you?" with naruto sleeping in the bed which implies that the question is who will naruto become...the left pic or the right pic.

if kishi has planned that far ahead then he is simply awesome


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## Snowder (Aug 26, 2012)

I came up with a new theory. Tobi simply being Obito might be too obvious so I thought about this:

We know Zetsu is eating dead Akatsuki members and some "delicious" shinobi to gather and keep their secrets. Zetsu may be Madara's subordinate in the past and he found the crushed body of Obito. While gathering Obito's information he found his still intact right Sharingan. Zetsu splits himself in two (white) halfes. His left half melted with Obito's right half and shapeshifted into Obito to make him look complete. We know White Zetsu is able to shapeshift into anyone he got in contact with, something we haven't seen from Black Zetsu. That's why I think Zetsu's original form is white.
He then created Black Zetsu for his right (white) half from the data he gathered from dead shinobi, adding a second personality to himself -that would be the Zetsu we've first seen in the Naruto series.
Madara asked/ordered Obito-Zetsu to take his place and let Madara's name live on when Madara dies.

Zetsu and Tobi both have two personalites and both are gathering something -one collects information and secrets while the other one (Tobi) collects eyes.
I really think there is a connection to that. It would also explain why White Zetsu said "Tobi is a good boy" at Tobi's first appearance. Of course White Zetsu knows his other white half, while Black Zetsu is merely some dead shinobi's mind/personality and does not know much about Obito-Zetsu (or at least only the information Zetsu shared with him). Since White Zetsu is connected with Obito he knows everything Obito knows, thus picking on Kakashi's past.

I know it sounds a bit confusing 'cause I'm not pretty good at explaining or describing, but maybe you get what I'm up to.
It sounds plausible and is something not so obvious like Tobi simply being Obito, don't you think?
Zetsu's true identity is as unknown and mysterious as Tobi's.

Topic has been moved and un-sticked, was pretty hard to find it since there was no info given about...


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## Talis (Aug 26, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Some observant people over at Narutobase dug these up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol awesome.
Deserves to have an own thread.


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## Marsala (Aug 26, 2012)

son_michael said:


> that cover of naruto with and the 2 pictures on his desk seems to suggest kishi had it all planned out.
> 
> "who are you?"
> 
> ...



That's Kakashi sleeping in the bed, not Naruto.


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## Rios (Aug 26, 2012)

Tobi is Kakashi's clone.


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## ghstwrld (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm beginning to think Tobi's spirit/soul is made up of many different parts, too, that there are bits from Madara in there, Obito, the Mizukage, from all of the aliases/people he's taken on. Maybe he isn't playacting; he could be some kind of repository for souls, kind of like the Homunculus from Full Metal Alchemist, and taps into the ones that suit whatever situation he's in. That could account for his 'I'm nobody' shtick. Tobi may not have an identity or a strong sense of self because he has many different and unique personalities knocking around in his head.


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## Khazzar (Aug 26, 2012)

If Kishi sticked to his old goals,the importance of "bonds" in Narutoverse and how they manifest,both in a good or evil way,it would have been Izuna. Izuna represents a "Bond" . Madara and Izuna , Itachi and Sasuke. Younger brother chasing after older,wanting to surpass him,to elevate himself from his brother's shadow. And in the end,he changes himself,his own desires and goals,for the ideals of a brother.

Izuna would make perfect sense if Kishi sticked to "bonds".


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## Talis (Aug 26, 2012)

Khazzar said:


> If Kishi sticked to his old goals,the importance of "bonds" in Narutoverse and how they manifest,both in a good or evil way,it would have been Izuna. Izuna represents a "Bond" . Madara and Izuna , Itachi and Sasuke. Younger brother chasing after older,wanting to surpass him,to elevate himself from his brother's shadow. And in the end,he changes himself,his own desires and goals,for the ideals of a brother.
> 
> Izuna would make perfect sense if Kishi sticked to "bonds".


Hes sticking with the friendship bound Naruto/Sasuke, Kakashi/Obito.
Its a final answer for Naruto, he will deal with Sasuke as the way Kakashi will with Obito.


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## Jay. (Aug 26, 2012)

Tobi is Kagami Uchiha


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## Easley (Aug 26, 2012)

Izuna makes sense but unless he possessed Obito's body or Madara shows up, it's a boring reveal. The characters would be standing around, shrugging their shoulders. It gives a whole new meaning to Naruto's "who are you?"


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## Marsala (Aug 26, 2012)

Easley said:


> Izuna makes sense but unless he possessed Obito's body or Madara shows up, it's a boring reveal. The characters would be standing around, shrugging their shoulders. It gives a whole new meaning to Naruto's "who are you?"



One of the stronger arguments against Tobi being Obito is that Naruto probably won't recognize him and may not have even heard of him. Though since Kakashi and Guy are there, it won't stay a mystery to him for long.


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## Mugivara (Aug 26, 2012)

Naruto will see Tobi's face but not Kakashi or Gai will do it

Also, Bee(8 tails) is in an handicaped position now, I wouldn't surprise if Tobi would take him and run...


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## qwijibo (Aug 26, 2012)

Tobi is Hashirama. Edo Hashirama is simply a Zetsu clone (which explains his sub-par performance against Hiruzen compared to his hype).

Gedo Mazo has been linked to Hashirama and is how Hashirama competed against perfect Susano'o and Kurama. 

Tobi isn't an Uchiha who added Senju goop to his body. He is a Senju who stole Sharingan (and possibly fused with Obito's body). He has at least 100 Sharingan in jars, so it wouldn't be a stretch for his current Sharingan to be stolen too.

Uchiha-no-jutsu?? Really? Sasuke and Itachi have never used Uchiha-no-jutsu. Sikamaru has never used Nara-no-jutsu. Minato has never used Namikaze-no-jutsu... This is a blatant attempt to prevent readers from thinking Tobi can be anything but an Uchiha. Why would someone complicit in the destruction of his clan wear the clan symbol proudly on his back?

Madara and Danzou have Hashirama cells and can use Mokuton. Why can't Tobi use Mokuton? He can, but doing so would reveal his true identity. That's why Tobi almost never uses non-Sharingan jutsu. His arsenal is too distinctive.

This revelation will actually affect Naruto. His goal has always been to surpass the Hokages, but now he'll realize that his goal was based on a lie. Tobito would have a profound effect on Kakashi, but the manga is titled Naruto. Tobi is responsible for the deaths of Naruto's parents and his acquisition of Kurama. Kakashi can't even stand anymore, so it is hard to see him having much of a role in the remainder of the fight.

Tobi's mask getting shattered won't reveal any major weaknesses. It just means that he doesn't have to hold back anymore.

The irony in these scenes is just a bonus. 
1
2
3

As a sidenote:
There is a decent chance that "them" refers to the Hokage in the stomach of the death god. I wouldn't be surprised for next chapter to cut to Sauske/Oro reviving the Hokage only to realize one of them isn't the real deal.


----------



## LilMissAnko (Aug 26, 2012)

I still say Nawaki... and if it's not him... he's got something to do with what's going on


----------



## BatoKusanagi (Aug 26, 2012)

He's Danzo


----------



## NW (Aug 26, 2012)

First Tsurugi said:


> Some observant people over at Narutobase dug these up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I brought up that last picture here a few days ago... 

Stop stealing my clues, Tsurugi! 



First Tsurugi said:


> Obito and the influence he had on the manga existed long before Kakashi Gaiden, when we were formally introduced to his character.
> 
> This twist could potentially have been in the works since the very beginning of the manga, though I doubt Kishi thought that far ahead so early.


No, I think it's a very high possibility that he planned Obito to be the main villain from the start.



qwijibo said:


> Tobi is Hashirama. Edo Hashirama is simply a Zetsu clone (which explains his sub-par performance against Hiruzen compared to his hype).
> 
> Gedo Mazo has been linked to Hashirama and is how Hashirama competed against perfect Susano'o and Kurama.
> 
> ...


Fucking awesome, man.

I know it always seemed like a crack theory, but Hashirama was always my 2nd favorite choice after Obito.

Although it's kind of impossible since there's no way Madara would work with Hashirama, Tobi's skin color is much lighter than Hashirama's, Hashirama has no motive, and Tobi referred to Hashirama as a different person in his head.

So, all in all, I'd still much prefer Obito, as it completes the story better, but Hashirama would be a fun twist I guess, if Kishi could explain it.


----------



## Wizard (Aug 26, 2012)

Its going to be Izuna


----------



## Snowder (Aug 26, 2012)

qwijibo said:


> Tobi is Hashirama.....



That's an interesting theory (:
But how do you explain how Orochimaru summoned him and the Second at the fight against the Third when Hashirama is still alive? I wouldn't think of fake summons since they said they were sorry fighting against the Third -proof of their personalities.


----------



## qwijibo (Aug 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Although it's kind of impossible since there's no way Madara would work with Hashirama, Tobi's skin color is much lighter than Hashirama's, Hashirama has no motive, and Tobi referred to Hashirama as a different person in his head.
> 
> So, all in all, I'd still much prefer Obito, as it completes the story better, but Hashirama would be a fun twist I guess, if Kishi could explain it.



Hashirama is probably the only person (Izuna is an exception since they are brothers) Madara would respect enough to take on as a full partner. Madara wouldn't have much choice if he was defeated at VotE. Join Hashirama or die. I think Hashirama's motives can be explained best by Itachi.
As for the skin color, he is usually covered head to toe and hiding in a cave. He hasn't had a chance to work on his tan (or he is Hashirama fused with Obito).



Snowder said:


> That's an interesting theory (:
> But how do you explain how Orochimaru summoned him and the Second at the fight against the Third when Hashirama is still alive? I wouldn't think of fake summons since they said they were sorry fighting against the Third -proof of their personalities.


Edo Tensei seem to have the freedom to speak until the tags are implanted. They don't necessarily have to speak honestly.


----------



## chnt (Aug 26, 2012)

i haven't read all the discussion but does anyone wonder whether tobi's whole plan has been to create a uniting event along side the destined narusasu fight, setting himself up to fail right at the end in order to create peace?

something i've been pondering for a while but never bothered to write down


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 26, 2012)

how many of you support that tobi is obito?


----------



## Marsala (Aug 26, 2012)

Wizard said:


> Its going to be Izuna



WHEN ARE YOU PEOPLE GOING TO GIVE UP?


----------



## NW (Aug 26, 2012)

Marsala said:
			
		

> WHEN ARE YOU PEOPLE GOING TO GIVE UP?


The theory's pretty much impossible but they just deny everything against it.


----------



## Summers (Aug 26, 2012)

I have never had a theory on who Tobi is as I hate all Tobi=? Theories and threads, So I say He is Nobody like he says. So if he turns out to be some random person then I claim victory.


----------



## NW (Aug 26, 2012)

qwijibo said:


> Hashirama is probably the only person (Izuna is an exception since they are brothers) Madara would respect enough to take on as a full partner. Madara wouldn't have much choice if he was defeated at VotE. Join Hashirama or die. I think Hashirama's motives can be explained best by Itachi.


Oh, I see...



> As for the skin color, he is usually covered head to toe and hiding in a cave. He hasn't had a chance to work on his tan (or he is Hashirama fused with Obito).


Well, I guess all the holes in this theory are pretty much cleared up except for Tobi referring to Hashirama at least 3 times in his head.


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 26, 2012)

and the fact that tobi has never done any mokutons.............


----------



## NW (Aug 26, 2012)

Mistshadow said:
			
		

> and the fact that tobi has never done any mokutons.............


Well, that's not really a problem. According to his theory, Tobi hasn't used Mokutons because it would be too distinctive.


----------



## nufan (Aug 26, 2012)

> Hashirama is probably the only person (Izuna is an exception since they are brothers) Madara would respect



3

Here Madara pretty much confirms that Hashirama is dead


----------



## qwijibo (Aug 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Oh, I see...
> 
> Well, I guess all the holes in this theory are pretty much cleared up except for Tobi referring to Hashirama at least 3 times in his head.


 Maybe referring to yourself in third person is more common in Japan. Just a thought...

There may be more plot holes that I'm not seeing, but unless Tobi is a completely new character there are going to be plot holes IMO.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 26, 2012)

qwijibo said:


> Maybe referring to yourself in third person is more common in Japan. Just a thought...
> 
> There may be more plot holes that I'm not seeing, but unless Tobi is a completely new character there are going to be plot holes IMO.



no plot hole here. He's just saying he's going to use his power which is uchiha madara's power. Obviously he is not uchiha madara so the true meaning to this quote should be self explanatory.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 26, 2012)

Marsala said:


> WHEN ARE YOU PEOPLE GOING TO GIVE UP?


NEVER GIVE UP! NEVER SURRENDER!
​


----------



## Easley (Aug 26, 2012)

qwijibo said:


> Maybe referring to yourself in third person is more common in Japan.


It is. 

I remember the arguments when Tobi first claimed to be Madara. He said, "My power, Uchiha Madara's power" but he used the word 'kono' in Japanese which can also refer to yourself. 

Some lines are hard to translate and still sound good in English.


----------



## NW (Aug 26, 2012)

qwijibo said:


> Maybe referring to yourself in third person is more common in Japan. Just a thought...


Actually, I believe it is. But referring to yourself as a different person in your head three times seems like it would be uncommon even in Japan.



> There may be more plot holes that I'm not seeing, but unless Tobi is a completely new character there are going to be plot holes IMO.


Well, there are what are believed to be plotholes, but will be filled in by Kishi when Tobi's identity is revealed. But the ones with Hashirama seem to be unnecessary if Tobi was in fact Hashirama.

For example" Instead of "Today I will finally crush Senju Hashirama's Will of Fire!" he could have thought "Today I will finally crush the Will of Fire!"

Or, when Tobi said "It seems he has a similar ability to the First Hokage's wife Mito Uzumaki." he could have thought "It seems he had a similar ability to Mito Uzumaki."

See what I mean?


----------



## FakePeace (Aug 26, 2012)

I really, really doubt this Tobi = Obito theory but I don't have an idea who else he could be, especially considering the last two chapters.


----------



## NW (Aug 26, 2012)

FakePeace said:
			
		

> I really, really doubt this Tobi = Obito theory but I don't have an idea who else he could be, especially considering the last two chapters.


Apparently he could also be Izuna. You see, Izuna was Kagami's father and Kagami was Obito's father, so Izuna got pissed when Kagami got killed in a war, and even more pissed when Obito got killed. So now he's out for revenge!!!!!


----------



## qwijibo (Aug 26, 2012)

nufan said:


> V2 beast form
> 
> Here Madara pretty much confirms that Hashirama is dead



Presumably Madara and Tobi were working together and had some sort of plan. It makes sense that Madara would try to keep Tobi's identity under wraps. I personally think this is just more misdirection from Kishi.

The constant exposition and fapping for Hashirama is actually one of the things that has me convinced. Why have Hashirama's hype exceed Madara's if he has no role left to play in the manga. 
Only Hashirama can defeat Madara
Only Hashirama can defeat Madara again...
Restoring technique that requires no seals Sounds like how Tobi healed his arms.
The maps won't need to be redrawn so drastically

Who else would have the expertise to control multiple bijuu at the same time (Hashirama was formerly in control of all the bijuu).

If he is Hashirama merged with Obito, it could even explain Tobi's interest in Sasuke. He wants to merge with a stronger Uchiha who has unlocked EMS.

Just think about it. The inventor of the will of fire and strongest hero since Rikudou turned to evil...

Way better than some guy who turned evil because the girl he had a teenage crush on died.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 26, 2012)

Marsala said:


> WHEN ARE YOU PEOPLE GOING TO GIVE UP?


I won't give up until I see what Tobi's mouth looks like.


----------



## son_michael (Aug 26, 2012)

qwijibo said:


> Presumably Madara and Tobi were working together and had some sort of plan. It makes sense that Madara would try to keep Tobi's identity under wraps. I personally think this is just more misdirection from Kishi.
> 
> The constant exposition and fapping for Hashirama is actually one of the things that has me convinced. Why have Hashirama's hype exceed Madara's if he has no role left to play in the manga.
> Only Hashirama can defeat Madara
> ...




so the man who taught about the will of fire, gave bijuu to all the nations so there would be peace and representative of the younger son....turned evil? 

and people say obito's change makes no sense


----------



## NW (Aug 26, 2012)

qwijibo said:


> Presumably Madara and Tobi were working together and had some sort of plan. It makes sense that Madara would try to keep Tobi's identity under wraps. I personally think this is just more misdirection from Kishi.
> 
> The constant exposition and fapping for Hashirama is actually one of the things that has me convinced. Why have Hashirama's hype exceed Madara's if he has no role left to play in the manga.
> Only Hashirama can defeat Madara
> ...


So what exactly caused Hashirama to change? Did Mito die and that's his reason?

Also, it's not better than "some guy who turned evil because the girl he had a teenage crush on died."

Being an Uchiha parallel to Naruto, Obito would naturally make a fitting final villain.

Also, you can't forget how Kakashi's promise to Obito to protect Rin parallels Naruto's promise to Sakura to bring Sasuke back.

Team Minato is like a failed Team 7. Team 7 is like a (potentially) successful Team Minato.

I've written several posts on why Obito's motives are legit, but I'm not going to bother finding them.


----------



## Tyrion (Aug 26, 2012)

I have a theory. Tobi is literally "no one." He is just a random guy. He was NOT a ninja before but a normal human who went through suffering.  This guy collected the Uchiha eyes for a living and then transplanted the abilities from those 100 of Sharingans into his one eye, that is why he knows so much about the Narutoverse and everyone else, he collected the different types of memories from the eyes. That's why he can perform a "Uchiha" jutsu. That's why he acts goofy and serious because one of the sharingans that he transplanted into himself might have belonged to a goofy guy, the others serious, etc.

Believe it


----------



## qwijibo (Aug 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So what exactly caused Hashirama to change? Did Mito die and that's his reason?
> 
> Also, it's not better than "some guy who turned evil because the girl he had a teenage crush on died."
> 
> ...


Hashirama lived in a era of constant warfare. He may have thought he would achieve a meaningful peace with the other nations by distributing the bijuu. Instead he gets another series of wars. This is exactly the kind of thing that would make someone embrace the older son's philosophy. Show them love and they'll throw it in your face. Show them power and they'll respect you.

Kurama, Nagato, and Itachi sum it up nicely:


TL;DR 
One failure does not make someone give up on hope, but a lifetime of failure and the desire to fix everything by yourself could.


----------



## NW (Aug 26, 2012)

qwijibo said:


> Hashirama lived in a era of constant warfare. He may have thought he would achieve a meaningful peace with the other nations by distributing the bijuu. Instead he gets another series of wars. This is exactly the kind of thing that would make someone embrace the older son's philosophy. Show them love and they'll throw it in your face. Show them power and they'll respect you.
> 
> Kurama, Nagato, and Itachi sum it up nicely:
> 
> ...


Dude.. those pages you posted just solidified Obito's motive...


----------



## Arya Stark (Aug 26, 2012)

qwijibo said:


> Hashirama lived in a era of constant warfare. He may have thought he would achieve a meaningful peace with the other nations by distributing the bijuu. Instead he gets another series of wars. This is exactly the kind of thing that would make someone embrace the older son's philosophy. Show them love and they'll throw it in your face. Show them power and they'll respect you.
> 
> Kurama, Nagato, and Itachi sum it up nicely:
> 
> ...



Thank you for making me certain about Obito.
Poor Obbie


----------



## DragonOfChoas (Aug 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Dude.. those pages you posted just solidified Obito's motive...



Not really. 
Obito never tried to insert peace, that was never his goal neither did he lived to see all the efforts he put into stopping said cycle do anything. 
Obito died for his friends he understood the price he had to pay for that and died without regrets.


----------



## NW (Aug 26, 2012)

DragonOfChaos said:
			
		

> Not really.
> Obito never tried to insert peace, that was never his goal neither did he lived to see all the efforts he put into stopping said cycle do anything.


I can still see him coming to want peace after what happened. Look at Nagato.



> Obito died for his friends he understood the price he had to pay for that and died without regrets.


Why do people say this? He totally had regrets. "Just as Kakashi and I finally became friends, and I couldn't tell Rin that I loved her... I just wish I could have spent more time with everyone..."


----------



## DragonOfChoas (Aug 26, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I can still see him coming to want peace after what happened. Look at Nagato.



Nagato had the eyes of the RS and had the idea of him being the saviour given by J-Man, Obito didn't. Obito died as a soldier as a true comrade for his friends sake.  



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Why do people say this? He totally had regrets. "Just as Kakashi and I finally became friends, and I couldn't tell Rin that I loved her... I just wish I could have spent more time with everyone..."



But he didn't regret giving his life for them which is the main point . He understood the price he had to pay to protect them.


----------



## Leuconoe (Aug 26, 2012)

Hm...I'm still going to say "not Tobi" just because of how much of a troll Kishi-mo-mo is. But if he is Tobi, that's fine too! I'll be running to the forums either way!


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## Let'sFightingLove (Aug 27, 2012)

DragonOfChoas said:


> But he didn't regret giving his life for them which is the main point . He understood the price he had to pay to protect them.



He said he wished or had a desire in other words. Who cares if he regret it or not, he wanted to live. 

I am tobito #1 supporter.


----------



## Halibel (Aug 27, 2012)

its the 4th hokage

just covering bases


----------



## syrup (Aug 27, 2012)

Having randomly clicked on him while browsing hisharama, based on the wiki my guess is that it might be this dude  .

Though there is a lot wrong with this theory, his hair is lighter, oro said he could bring him back to life, and he is young there. But if tsunade is 50+ pretimeskip then he would be older now. Doesn't explain how he was pro enough to do that to minato though. 

Would explain his earth jutsu familiarity though. Also "Nawaki died in battle after running into an explosive trap. Orochimaru was with him, along with two other genin, implying that Orochimaru was his sensei."...Given the amount of shit he pulls out of his ass, I do not think he would let someone with those genes die easily.

Maybe he put Sharingans in Nawaki's eyes in yet another attempt to make another pro body to take over. Maybe Oro's scroll that Sasuke found has something to do with it.

Would certainly be an interesting twist, though how to explain it IDK.


----------



## General Mael Radec (Aug 27, 2012)

RIN = TOBI FOLLOWERS ASSEMBLE!!!


----------



## syrup (Aug 27, 2012)

syrup said:


> Having randomly clicked on him while browsing hisharama, based on the wiki my guess is that it might be this dude  .
> 
> Though there is a lot wrong with this theory, his hair is lighter, oro said he could bring him back to life, and he is young there. But if tsunade is 50+ pretimeskip then he would be older now. Doesn't explain how he was pro enough to do that to minato though.
> 
> ...



Maybe he was meant to be a body but when Oro transplanted the eyes in preparation to take over the body his ST jutsu went off (as was first time couldn't control it) and he travelled back in time to before Kyubi incident. Given that he was all fucked up from the explosion and experiments didn't tell everyone though / go see Tsunade. So instead just watched from afar. Thus how saw the Obito death etc. Until deciding in the philosophies he now holds.


----------



## DragonOfChoas (Aug 27, 2012)

Let'sFightingLove said:


> He said he wished or had a desire in other words. Who cares if he regret it or not, he wanted to live.
> 
> I am tobito #1 supporter.



He wished to live more. so? That doesn't equate to having regrets about what he have done.
Had he had the chance to go back before he saved Kakashi don you really think he wouldn't have done the same thing?


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

Let'sFightingLove said:


> He said he wished or had a desire in other words. Who cares if he regret it or not, he wanted to live.
> 
> I am tobito #2 supporter.


Fixed! 



DragonOfChoas said:


> He wished to live more. so? That doesn't equate to having regrets about what he have done.
> Had he had the chance to go back before he saved Kakashi don you really think he wouldn't have done the same thing?


He could have regretted saving Kakashi because he thought he could have done a better job of protecting Rin.


----------



## Xin (Aug 27, 2012)

I place my bet on him (with pleasure)


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

DavidBenjamin said:


> I place my bet on him (with pleasure)


Good choice, my friend!


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 27, 2012)

Heh, so will this all end now or?


----------



## The Weeknd (Aug 27, 2012)

I bet about 500$ it's Izuna.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 27, 2012)

Lol same here....


----------



## Dominus (Aug 27, 2012)

Could it be him ???


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 27, 2012)

If you read my link it is, that interview was never suppose to go online, so it's true. Though this could be fake, but i doubt it.

EDIT: it's fucking fake, comic market 78 was in 2010 lol... This is probably some Tobi/Izuna fan writing fake spoilers.


----------



## The Weeknd (Aug 27, 2012)

eh, I still bet on it.


----------



## dungsi27 (Aug 27, 2012)

Izuna Uchiha is my last guess.


----------



## Kid (Aug 27, 2012)

I go with Izuna ALL IN!!


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

Izuna ftw.


----------



## nadinkrah (Aug 27, 2012)

From years of research I have now come to a conclusion. Tobi is Izuna.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 27, 2012)

Kagami inhabiting Obito's body.


----------



## Marsala (Aug 27, 2012)

Kazekage Gaara said:


> Heh, so will this all end now or?





I bet Tobi is anyone but Izuna. Anyone.


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

Tobi = Izuna  get on dat bandwagon before its too late

- How did Tobi know about the moment when the seal was at its weakest? Kushina was only the 2nd Kyuubi jinchuuriki. And Mito faced a similar problem when she gave birth -> Madara/Izuna/Uchiha .. direct knowledge.

- My powers.. Uchiha Madara's powers.. Brothers, similar powers..

- "They were my eyes to begin with..." yeap, they were your eyes.

- "I've waited for this moment so long..." after kidnapping Kushina and releasing Kyuubi..

- Kyuubi says "You.." after seeing him as if surprised, don't know if that is a translation mistake but surely he wouldn't be surprised to see Obito LOL (Uchiha clan is still pretty much intact)

- Eye of the Moon plan sounds like cooked up long ago, whether the bros planned it together or not.


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

Kobe said:


> Tobi = Izuna  get on dat bandwagon before its too late


Anyone who's going for Izuna is going to be severely crushed when 599 comes out.



> - How did Tobi know about the moment when the seal was at its weakest? Kushina was only the 2nd Kyuubi jinchuuriki. And Mito faced a similar problem when she gave birth -> Madara/Izuna/Uchiha .. direct knowledge.


Orrrrrrrrr Madara told him.



> - My powers.. Uchiha Madara's powers.. Brothers, similar powers..




he was referring to himself as Uchiha Madara.



> - "They were my eyes to begin with..." yeap, they were your eyes.


He was posing as Madara. 



> - "I've waited for this moment so long..." after kidnapping Kushina and releasing Kyuubi..


And we know how long that time span was how?



> - Kyuubi says "You.." after seeing him as if surprised, don't know if that is a translation mistake but surely he wouldn't be surprised to see Obito LOL (Uchiha clan is still pretty much intact)


This is the most bullshit argument there is. We don't know WHAT Kurama recognized, so trying to use it to disprove and support theories is useless.

After reading the post I linked to, if anyone still honestly believes that Tobi is Izuna... then wow.


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 27, 2012)

That spoiler is fake probably. Tobi can be anyone, let's just wait for Kishi to reveal it.


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

why would he refer to himself as Uchiha Madara when no one else was around 


If Tobi is indeed Izuna, all the things he said makes sense. There is no LOL Madara helped Tobi in any of the cases. Dude is pretty much steering the wheel.


----------



## ThatsWhatIsLove (Aug 27, 2012)

Future Sasuke. 

ck


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

Kobe said:


> why would he refer to himself as Uchiha Madara when no one else was around


-_____-




> If Tobi is indeed Izuna, all the things he said makes sense. There is no LOL Madara helped Tobi in any of the cases. Dude is pretty much steering the wheel.


No, if Tobi is Izuna, not all of the things he said make sense.

"Kakashi, you always open your mouth so easily. It's no wonder you've lived a life of regret."

"You don't remember faces anyway, so what point is there in telling you?'

"I told you not to open your mouth so easily! You're all talk and no action! What someone like you says is worth absolutely nothing!"

"It's too late to regret. Reality will just keep cruelly moving forwrad."

"I want to make a world where heroes don't have to make pathetic excuses in front of their friends' graves!"


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

so what does that say? 

Tobi sent Zetsu to observe and record all kinds of shit  

What do we and the whole village and their mothers know about Kakashi? He obtained that eye from Obito during third shinobi war in Kannabi bridge. Hell it's probably even written in his grave stone. We also know that whoever Tobi is obtained that eye sometime during Obito's death and Kyuubi attack. That's a lot of time to dig graves and whatnot. And how does Tobi know about Kakashi's personal interests? see above AND Kakashi having the other eye, which makes it relevant for Tobi. Tobi is a proven manipulator. It's pretty much fact that he uses that to screw Kakashi's exposure of him. I mean it's not the first time a villain used mind tricks


----------



## jacamo (Aug 27, 2012)

Tobi = Obito's father = Uchiha Kagami





Kobe said:


> so what does that say?
> 
> Tobi sent Zetsu to observe and record all kinds of shit
> 
> What do we and the whole village and their mothers know about Kakashi? He obtained that eye from Obito during third shinobi war in Kannabi bridge. Hell it's probably even written in his grave stone. We also know that whoever Tobi is obtained that eye sometime during Obito's death and Kyuubi attack. That's a lot of time to dig graves and whatnot. And how does Tobi know about Kakashi's personal interests? see above AND Kakashi having the other eye, which makes it relevant for Tobi. Tobi is a proven manipulator. It's pretty much fact that he uses that to screw Kakashi's exposure of him. I mean it's not the first time a villain used mind tricks



dont mind him... the guys lost it

excited for Pau/Nash combo


----------



## ch1p (Aug 27, 2012)

Kazekage Gaara said:


> Heh, so will this all end now or?



Let's see... "While visiting Japan for business,me(Victor Sleever) and Mike Birnton, from Viz Media, decided to spare some of our time and go to *Comic Market 78*, the biggest manga festival in Japan, something that happens only twice a year. The festival lasts for 3 days, from *23 august to 25 august*."


----------



## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Aug 27, 2012)

The only reason I would have for suspecting it is someone other than Obito under that mask is because Kishimoto is so obvious in hinting that the only sensible objection to the theory IS the fact Kishimoto is so obvious.


----------



## SageEnergyMode (Aug 27, 2012)

I'm going with it being Izuna and I was pretty much decided on this before the fake interview. I won't say that it has been easy, though, because it's so damn tempting to believe it to be Obito.

However, I do believe it would make Tobi more of a significant threat, and make Minato look even more badass, if it turned out to be somebody else with an entirely new backstory that we aren't fully aware of.


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

My guess revoles around Izuna due to manga canon purposes. But if it was Fugaku, I wouldn't be surprised (there are cases for him too) Hell, it just makes manga better. But I know it's definitely not Obito.


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 27, 2012)

@Kojiro: I agree, that's the last line of defense. Even I, a strong Tobito hater from the start...now believe Tobi is Obito. I just don't understand why Kishi would handle the biggest mystery in the manga like this...so that we already know who's behind the mask, before it's officially confirmed....


----------



## FlashYoruichi (Aug 27, 2012)

Tobi = rin


----------



## DragonOfChoas (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Fixed!
> 
> He could have regretted saving Kakashi because he thought he could have done a better job of protecting Rin.



Lol, you think his entire life resolved around Rin or something? He saved Kakashi because he was his friend not because he could protect Rin better. 
He asked Kakashi to protect her, but surely you don't expect me to believe he thought Kakashi can't fail... He saw him getting hurt, hell he was the one to save him from death. It just not following.


----------



## Tharris (Aug 27, 2012)

*My theory on everything!*

Based on my own observations throughout the show I have my own theory as to who I'd like to see behind the mask.

*1. Tobi has Obito's eye*(CONFIRMED)
2. Tobi has a mixture of Shisui's body and Senju DNA. !!SPECULATION
3. Obito and Shisui were blood relatives/brothers.!!SPECULATION
4. Either Izuna, Madara's brother or Kagami, speculated as Madara's son, nephew or student is the mastermind that truly is Tobi.!!SPECULATION
5. Tobi is related to both Obito and Shisui, who both had good intentions and hopes for the world, but were both taken before their time, thus his turmoil is born.!!SPECULATION*


*Spoiler*: __ 



What clues is there to my personal belief/theory-
1. Tobi has Obito's eye, and has no repercussion from using it, like Kakashi
2. Kabuto mentioned that he couldn't find Shisui's body.
3. Kishi has been quoted saying that Madara and Tobi do in fact have a relationship.
4. Tobi seems to have had mixed feelings towards both Itachi and Kakashi, Shisui and Obito's best friends respectively.
5. Eye stealing and body swapping, especially in the case of the Uchiha clan has been a constant theme since before Shippuden.


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

Kobe said:


> so what does that say?
> 
> Tobi sent Zetsu to observe and record all kinds of shit
> 
> What do we and the whole village and their mothers know about Kakashi? He obtained that eye from Obito during third shinobi war in Kannabi bridge. Hell it's probably even written in his grave stone. We also know that whoever Tobi is obtained that eye sometime during Obito's death and Kyuubi attack. That's a lot of time to dig graves and whatnot. And how does Tobi know about Kakashi's personal interests? see above AND Kakashi having the other eye, which makes it relevant for Tobi. Tobi is a proven manipulator. It's pretty much fact that he uses that to screw Kakashi's exposure of him. I mean it's not the first time a villain used mind tricks


See my post I linked to. It debunks all this.



jacamo said:


> Tobi = Obito's father = Uchiha Kagami


You tell other people they can't use assumptions yet you use assumptions for yours? Your whole theory is a giant plothole.

Crazy much?

Seriously, fucking hypocrites need to stop debating.



Kobe said:


> My guess revoles around Izuna due to manga canon purposes. But if it was Fugaku, I wouldn't be surprised (there are cases for him too) Hell, it just makes manga better. But I know it's definitely not Obito.


Tobi being Izuna or Fugaku would fuck everything up. Both of them would cause no emotional reaction, don't fit with the plot at all, and Fugaku doesn't even look like Tobi. Plus, Izuna would have no need to wear a mask.

So basically, the Izuna and Fugaku theories are both fail theories.

Obito's the only one that would actually add anything to the narrative.


PositiveEmotions said:


> cant wait till wed


ikr


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

Why wouldn't Fugaku need to wear the mask?  He and his shrewd wife just trolled whole clan AND Konoha, let's not even mention them ruining Sasuke. 

Fugaku would basically be the reason for Sasuke's redemption


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 27, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> Let's see... "While visiting Japan for business,me(Victor Sleever) and Mike Birnton, from Viz Media, decided to spare some of our time and go to *Comic Market 78*, the biggest manga festival in Japan, something that happens only twice a year. The festival lasts for 3 days, from *23 august to 25 august*."



Um comiket 78 was in 2010. how... Unless this interview was 2 years old an no one noticed till now lol.


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 27, 2012)

tobi = OBITO


----------



## Crona (Aug 27, 2012)

Tobi is going to be a creation of a time traveling Shisui. Or some random Black Zetsu.


----------



## Mist Puppet (Aug 27, 2012)

Tobi is Obito from an alternate universe where Kakashi died instead of him. AU Obito married Rin, and participated in a time travel experiment that wiped his body from his own universe and ended up in the current one. His mind scrambled, he only remembers fragments of his past life, and the name "Tobi". 

And so Tobi finds himself leaping from life to life, putting right what once went wrong, hoping that the next leap will be the leap home.


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

DragonOfChaos said:
			
		

> Lol, you think his entire life resolved around Rin or something? He saved Kakashi because he was his friend not because he could protect Rin better.
> He asked Kakashi to protect her, but surely you don't expect me to believe he thought Kakashi can't fail... He saw him getting hurt, hell he was the one to save him from death. It just not following.


I meant he regretted it AFTER Rin died.... aww whatever. Just read these:


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Obito entrusted Kakashi with his wish to protect Rin. And Kakashi easily opened his mouth and says "Right..."*






*Spoiler*: _And then_ 



*Kakashi tells Rin how important she was to Obito, and he'll protect her through life and death. Well, that didn't work out so well, now did it?  Plus, it turned out Rin loved Kakashi and he still let her die. Ooh, harsh, Obito.*








Kakashi and Naruto both made promises. Kakashi broke his and Naruto has the chance to keep his, and the contents of his promise is one of the main parts of the manga.

Team Minato is like a failed Team 7, and Team 7 is like a (potentially) successful Team Minato.


----------



## 8 (Aug 27, 2012)

teuchi has an alibi.

first there was the scene where kabuto meets tobi and threaten him with the six coffins. then the scene switched to konoha and naruto was visiting teuchi in the ramen shop. a moment later tobi gave kabuto a tour trough the cave and showed off his army of zetsu.


*Spoiler*: __ 



doesn't fool me though. he's still suspect #1.


----------



## Yuna (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Are you ignoring my post on purpose? I never said Fugaku wouldn't need to wear a mask. I said IZUNA wouldn't need to wear a mask.


If he's running around telling people he's Madara, yes he does.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Also, Fugaku would be what, 50, if he were still alive? That's definitely not old enough for him to be Tobi.


Yet 26 years old Obito is?


----------



## Kid (Aug 27, 2012)

8 said:


> teuchi has an alibi.
> 
> first there was the scene where kabuto meets tobi and threaten him with the six coffins. then the scene switched to konoha and naruto was visiting teuchi in the ramen shop. a moment later tobi gave kabuto a tour trough the cave and showed off his army of zetsu.
> 
> ...



He's just that fast.


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

Yuna said:


> If he's running around telling people he's Madara, yes he does.


When he looks virtually the same except for a small lip difference no he doesn't.




> Yet 26 years old Obito is?


The boulder did it!


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Are you ignoring my post on purpose? I never said Fugaku wouldn't need to wear a mask. I said IZUNA wouldn't need to wear a mask. Also, Fugaku would be what, 50, if he were still alive? That's definitely not old enough for him to be Tobi.
> 
> No. That would be Naruto.



Uhmm.. Dude has wrinkles, eye bags and shit. 50+ is just the logical thing here.

Sasuke said multiple times that Naruto cannot understand his situation because he never had parents to begin with, so what if Sasuke's parents return all of a sudden? in _villain_ role that planned all this shit and manipulated both Itachi and Sasuke?


----------



## jacamo (Aug 27, 2012)

Tobi = Obito's father = Uchiha Kagami


----------



## insane111 (Aug 27, 2012)

Kobe said:


> Uhmm.. Dude has wrinkles, eye bags and shit. 50+ is just the logical thing here.



No man, those are "scars". Oh yeah Danzou, Hiruzen, and the elders had "scarred" faces too, maybe they're Tobi.


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## jacamo (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Quote, please. Oh, that's right. You don't have one.
> 
> I never said you couldn't have your own opinion. I said you should stop being hypocritical. Because, you know what, this is what you sound like:



if i was allowed to have my opinion, you wouldnt be making this personal and going on an insult mission everytime i said something in this thread

unlike Raventhal and Sutol, you have lost control


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

Kobe said:


> Uhmm.. Dude has wrinkles, eye bags and shit. 50+ is just the logical thing here.


Yeeeeaaaaahhhhh, not like this: 
Tobi and Fugaku's eyeshapes are also waaaay off.



> Sasuke said multiple times that Naruto cannot understand his situation because he never had parents to begin with, so what if Sasuke's parents return all of a sudden? in _villain_ role that planned all this shit and manipulated both Itachi and Sasuke?


He understands his situation now because he lost Jiraiya, who was like a father figure to him.

Also, why would the main villain be relevant to Sasuke and not Naruto?


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> So basically, the *Izuna* and Fugaku theories are both fail theories.



Weren't you just supporting the Izuna theory like about two weeks ago?


----------



## Yuna (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> When he looks virtually the same except for a small lip difference no he doesn't.


Also eye lines. It started with him trying to hide that he's Izuna and then it changed into him trying to hide that he's Madara to those who knew the difference between the two.


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Weren't you just supporting the Izuna theory like about two weeks ago?


No. What even gave you that impression? 



Yuna said:


> Also eye lines. It started with him trying to hide that he's Izuna and then it changed into him trying to hide that he's Madara to those who knew the difference between the two.


If you're referring to those under eye creases that Madara has, Izuna, if Tobi, would have something similar to those. As you can see Tobi having what looks to be very similar to Madara's under eye creases.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 27, 2012)

insane111 said:


> No man, those are "scars". Oh yeah Danzou, Hiruzen, and the elders had "scarred" faces too, maybe they're Tobi.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __




Narutoverse - a place where scars and wrinkles are indistinguishable 

THE HORROR


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Yeeeeaaaaahhhhh, not like this:
> Tobi and Fugaku's eyeshapes are also waaaay off.
> 
> He understands his situation now because he lost Jiraiya, who was like a father figure to him.
> ...


Fugaku has a line around his nose similar to Itachi, the above part are wrinkles and eye bags 

It's interesting the boulder crashed his right half completely, yet it left a mini scar.. I wonder what those senju cells were for that creates a whole limb completely 


And no in their last clash, Sasuke mentioned same thing again. It's not about Naruto understanding Sasuke, it's about Sasuke's view on it.

It doesn't have to be related to Naruto. He's just another villain like Pain as far as he's concerned. But the way both sons are led by their parents, it just makes interesting cases. Naruto's parents gave their lives for their son to live - without hesitation. Sasuke's parents would have chosen the hatred path like it's in Uchiha blood, with faking their death.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No. What even gave you that impression?



No, it wasn't two weeks ago. It was like a month ago. When the TIT (Tobi's Idenity thread) was still open. Someone posted a detailed Izuna theory which convinced you to believe Izuna being a possible candidate for Tobi.


----------



## T-Bag (Aug 27, 2012)

bottom panel (guy on the left)


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 27, 2012)

I think it's Kagami, who will turn out to be Obito's direct relative or something along those lines.


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> bottom panel (guy on the left)



yeah, the Zetsu clone.


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

insane111 said:


> No man, those are "scars". Oh yeah Danzou, Hiruzen, and the elders had "scarred" faces too, maybe they're Tobi.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


What Hiruzen, Danzo, and the Elders had were obviously wrinkles. What Tobi has, however, looks nothing like wrinkles.



Kobe said:


> Fugaku has a line around his nose similar to Itachi, the above part are wrinkles and eye bags


What line?  



> It's interesting the boulder crashed his right half completely, yet it left a mini scar.. I wonder what those senju cells were for that creates a whole limb completely


If his face was crushed completely, then how did Tobi get his eye? 




> And no in their last clash, Sasuke mentioned same thing again. It's not about Naruto understanding Sasuke, it's about Sasuke's view on it.
> 
> It doesn't have to be related to Naruto. He's just another villain like Pain as far as he's concerned. But the way both sons are led by their parents, it just makes interesting cases. Naruto's parents gave their lives for their son to live - without hesitation. Sasuke's parents would have chosen the hatred path like it's in Uchiha blood, with faking their death.


We all know Naruto will TnJ his way into his heart. 



HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> No, it wasn't two weeks ago. It was like a month ago. When the TIT (Tobi's Idenity thread) was still open. Someone posted a detailed Izuna theory which convinced you to believe Izuna being a possible candidate for Tobi.


All I said was that he did a fine job constructing the theory.

Doesn't mean the theory's not bullshit.


----------



## αshɘs (Aug 27, 2012)

Kobe said:


> why would he refer to himself as Uchiha Madara when no one else was around



to not spoil the surprise for the readers early on?  come one now.

It's the same when he continued his act before Konan or Kaburo etc even though he didn't need to.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> All I said was that he did a fine job constructing the theory.
> 
> Doesn't mean the theory's not bullshit.



Oh, is that what you said? 

Sure doesn't look like it.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Wow. Just, wow, man. That was incredible... I knew they had the same birthday but never did I know all of the other things you put down.
> 
> Well, now I'm convinced that it may be Izuna as well.
> 
> I've been fighting it off for a time but I've just always had the feeling that Izuna and Obito were connected.


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

αshɘs said:


> to not spoil the surprise for the readers early on?  come one now.
> 
> It's the same when he continued his act before Konan or Kaburo etc even though he didn't need to.


Oh he's now interacting with the audience, breaking the 4th wall? 

Why would he reveal himself to Konan? Is there any purpose? He just talked about Madara's past and how Nagato took part in it.

Kabuto possibly knows who he is and who he wasn't. But he went on referring to him as Tobi. Just like Kisame and Zetsu did.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> What Hiruzen, Danzo, and the Elders had were obviously wrinkles. What Tobi has, however, looks nothing like wrinkles.
> 
> What line?
> 
> ...



I didn't say his face was crushed completely. I said if that is indeed scar, why doesnt he heal it? Dude can heal the injuries, and produce new limbs like nothing.





and those are your old man wrinkles.


----------



## αshɘs (Aug 27, 2012)

Where did I say anything about breaking thew 4th wall?  Tobi continuing his Madara act even alone was just Kishi's device to not spoil anything to the readers, keeping up the red herring. Remember when he first showed up with Zetsu and acted all goofy? "Tobi's a good boy blah blah blah" It's the same. He didn't need to act like that in front of Zetsu and Zetsu didn't need to make those remarks.



> Why would he reveal himself to Konan? Is there any purpose? He just talked about Madara's past and how Nagato took part in it.



I remember a couple of people maybe in this thread or other ones using that as sort of an evidence to him being Madara/Izuna actually. "Why did he keep up the act in front of dying Konan, when he didn't need to?"


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> Oh, is that what you said?
> 
> Sure doesn't look like it.


Oh, THAT one? 

I was just sayin' that. 

I never believed him to be Izuna.


----------



## Yuna (Aug 27, 2012)

Kobe said:


> yeah, the Zetsu clone.


Zetsu clones revert back to Zetsu when killed (or even hit).


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 27, 2012)

jacamo said:


> yikes... ObitoUchiha111 has really lost it
> 
> cant have my own opinion it seems



~snip~
because you say that it is 100% impossible to be obito.......................despite there are countless of things pointing towards that being reality


----------



## DragonOfChoas (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> I meant he regretted it AFTER Rin died.... aww whatever. Just read these:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



When were we told that Rin died exactly? not implied, but stated that she died.

And suppose she died why on earth would Kakashi "let" her die? from what we saw up until know he would have done everything in his power to protect her or any other comrade he have.

Team 7 is just plain dysfunctional, there is noting there anymore, it failed miserably (with quite a number of murder attempts). At the very least Team Minato had a far more fitting end. Teammates who put their life on the line for each other.


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

αshɘs said:


> Where did I say anything about breaking thew 4th wall?  Tobi continuing his Madara act even alone was just Kishi's device to not spoil anything to the readers, keeping up the red herring. Remember when he first showed up with Zetsu and acted all goofy? "Tobi's a good boy blah blah blah" It's the same. He didn't need to act like that in front of Zetsu and Zetsu didn't need to make those remarks.
> 
> I remember a couple of people maybe in this thread or other ones using that as sort of an evidence to him being Madara/Izuna actually. "Why did he keep up the act in front of dying Konan, when he didn't need to?"


Lol. Cmon. Madara is just speaking some truth there.

The one who said "Tobi is a good boy" was the White Zetsu, not Tobi 

and that is true indeed that convo with Konan can prove he's one of the old dogs. If history is written as Madara being dead, who would know the truth? No one other than Uchiha Bros. But since it was revealed that Madara is dead, Tobi is Izuna


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Oh, I didn't know that was the post that was being referred to.
> 
> Anyway, that was before 594, and even then I was barely on the possibility.
> 
> But, I've realized that it makes no sense for him to be Izuna.



Well, one man's genjutsu is another man's reality, I suppose. 

We shall see if those thoughts of Izuna that stay at the back of your head were trying to tell you something important or not come Wednesday.


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

Yuna said:


> Zetsu clones revert back to Zetsu when killed (or even hit).


Wasn't it that Zetsu's face was still shown as Kisame after his supposed death?


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

DragonOfChoas said:


> When were we told that Rin died exactly? not implied, but stated that she died.


Well, yeah. We have no idea. But she wasn't with he rest of them during Tobi's attack on Konoha. 



> And suppose she died why on earth would Kakashi "let" her die? from what we saw up until know he would have done everything in his power to protect her or any other comrade he have.


No, of course he'd try to help he, but obviously he wasn't able to. And why do you think Rin's death was unexplained anyway? 



> Team 7 is just plain dysfunctional, there is noting there anymore, it failed miserably (with quite a number of murder attempts). At the very least Team Minato had a far more fitting end. Teammates who put their life on the line for each other.


Team 7 at least has the chance to fix itself.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 27, 2012)

Ryuzaki said:


> I think it's Kagami, who will turn out to be Obito's direct relative or something along those lines.



thats what i think as well.... Kagami being Obito's father

it will mirror what Kakashi went through with his father-son tragedy




Kobe said:


> Lol. Cmon. Madara is just speaking some truth there.
> 
> The one who said "Tobi is a good boy" was the White Zetsu, not Tobi
> 
> and that is true indeed that convo with Konan can prove he's one of the old dogs. If history is written as Madara being dead, who would know the truth? No one other than Uchiha Bros. But since it was revealed that Madara is dead, Tobi is Izuna



Izuna has been the obvious choice for years... it wouldnt be hard for Kishi to write it into the story, despite Madara saying he died


----------



## Easley (Aug 27, 2012)

Whoever Tobi is, I don't want a Nagato-style redemption - by Naruto or Kakashi - but I can see it happening to be honest. He might even help against Madara. That monster needs to be sealed or trapped in some way - you know, like in a pocket dimension! Kakashi has used Kamui too much. Perhaps Tobi will sacrifice himself to permanently trap Madara?

If he's Obito chances are he'll be redeemed, but he should not be spared. The other characters would be baying for his blood.

..................

Fugaku is a good choice if Sasuke was also fighting Tobi, but since he's with Oro there's little chance he'll witness the reveal. I think that hurts the theory. Sasuke should be there to have his mind blown.


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

Easley said:


> Fugaku is a good choice if Sasuke was also fighting Tobi, but since he's with Oro there's little chance he'll witness the reveal. I think that hurts the theory. Sasuke should be there to have his mind blown.



They were going to go visit the one who knows everything. The way he needed Oro, that makes me believe it was his parents that were going to be revived or some shit as he wanted to learn the truth about the incident.

But what if Edo Tensei fails like the time Oro couldn't revive Minato?  It's gonna be quite lulz.


----------



## DragonOfChoas (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Well, yeah. We have no idea. But she wasn't with he rest of them during Tobi's attack on Konoha.



Maybe she is Tobi.



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> No, of course he'd try to help he, but obviously he wasn't able to. And why do you think Rin's death was unexplained anyway?



Maybe she didn't die?
My point was that Obito never thought of Kakashi as infallible or invincible he respected him and knew he was strong, but he also saw him make mistakes, being hurt and needing help. 
I would find it quite stupid if that would be used as a reason if Tobi is obito.   



ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Team 7 at least has the chance to fix itself.



Yeah that's going to be an interesting spectacle (assuming they all survive).


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

jacamo said:


> thats what i think as well.... Kagami being Obito's father
> 
> it will mirror what Kakashi went through with his father-son tragedy
> 
> ...


So, first you were all "It has to be Kagami! it can't be Izuna! Madara said he died!" now, with all the recent hints, you're saying "It can actually still be Izuna, as long as it;s not Obito!".

Gotta love the irony. 



Easley said:


> Whoever Tobi is, I don't want a Nagato-style redemption - by Naruto or Kakashi - but I can see it happening to be honest. He might even help against Madara. That monster needs to be sealed or trapped in some way - you know, like in a pocket dimension! Kakashi has used Kamui too much. Perhaps Tobi will sacrifice himself to permanently trap Madara?
> 
> If he's Obito chances are he'll be redeemed, but he should not be spared. The other characters would be baying for his blood.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure Tobi's gonna get redeemed. But yeah, if he does, then I hope it's better than Nagato's. Nagato's was ok, but I sincerely hope Tobi's is better, if he gets redeemed, that is.


----------



## nufan (Aug 27, 2012)

> When were we told that Rin died exactly? not implied, but stated that she died.
> 
> And suppose she died why on earth would Kakashi "let" her die? from what we saw up until know he would have done everything in his power to protect her or any other comrade he have.



When Kakashi died against Pain:
"I wasn't able to protect Rin. I broke my promise to you... Forgive me..."

and

"...Obito... Rin... Master... I'll be there soon"

Having these thoughts in the moment of his death more than implies that Rin was already dead

her ANBU bodyguards advising her to just let him leave peacefully.


----------



## αshɘs (Aug 27, 2012)

Kobe said:


> Lol. Cmon. Madara is just speaking some truth there.
> 
> The one who said "Tobi is a good boy" was the White Zetsu, not Tobi
> 
> and that is true indeed that convo with Konan can prove he's one of the old dogs. If history is written as Madara being dead, who would know the truth? No one other than Uchiha Bros. But since it was revealed that Madara is dead, Tobi is Izuna



I'm pretty sure the one making that comment was Black Zetsu after White Zetsu was having doubts about Tobi joining Akatsuki. Now, with them being acquinted and working together for god knows how many years, why would they act like that, even though they were alone.... Simple, really.

I don't think Tobi knowing all those things proves anything to who he is, let it be Izuna, Obito or Teuchi (). In this manga almost anything can happen. Madara could have imprinted memories into xy, or since a portion of xy's body is made up from Zetsu (you know, the walking recorder) he might have gotten those things built-in (lol). I don't think it's farfetched to assume things like these.

meh


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

DragonOfChoas said:


> Maybe she is Tobi.


.......





> Maybe she didn't die?


Oh, she's dead, all right.



> My point was that Obito never thought of Kakashi as infallible or invincible he respected him and knew he was strong, but he also saw him make mistakes, being hurt and needing help.


But he still entrusted him to protect Rin, especially now that he had his sharingan, making him far more powerful and skilled.



> I would find it quite stupid if that would be used as a reason if Tobi is obito.


I'm not even gonna bother writing another multiple paragraph long post on this subject explaining why it's not stupid. And besides, it's not like that would be his only motive.





> Yeah that's going to be an interesting spectacle (assuming they all survive).


Just you watch.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 27, 2012)

Easley said:


> Whoever Tobi is, I don't want a Nagato-style redemption - by Naruto or Kakashi - but I can see it happening to be honest. He might even help against Madara. That monster needs to be sealed or trapped in some way - you know, like in a pocket dimension! Kakashi has used Kamui too much. Perhaps Tobi will sacrifice himself to permanently trap Madara?
> 
> If he's Obito chances are he'll be redeemed, but he should not be spared. The other characters would be baying for his blood.



i dont think he will get redemption... the Nagato redemption yielded such bad results i doubt Kishi will go that route again

but a Kagami sobstory is definitely on its way


----------



## Yuna (Aug 27, 2012)

Kobe said:


> Wasn't it that Zetsu's face was still shown as Kisame after his supposed death?


Good point. I'll concede this point.


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

αshɘs said:


> I'm pretty sure the one making that comment was Black Zetsu after White Zetsu was having doubts about Tobi joining Akatsuki. Now, with them being acquinted and working together for god knows how many years, why would they act like that, even though they were alone.... Simple, really.
> 
> I don't think Tobi knowing all those things proves anything to who he is, let it be Izuna, Obito or Teuchi (). In this manga almost anything can happen. Madara could have imprinted memories into xy, or since a portion of xy's body is made up from Zetsu (you know, the walking recorder) he might have gotten those things built-in (lol). I don't think it's farfetched to assume things like these.
> 
> meh


could be the opposite.. I can't make that out from the scan. But it looks like the one talking shit to Tobi is Black Zetsu... gotta have to check the original page since one of them speaks in katakana (black)

It seems to me that Tobi and Zetsu have known each other for long time. That particular convo doesn't make sense to me too but Kishi could make a case for it.

That memory alteration theory has been around for a while but in the manga context, I don't give that much chance lol. They seem geniune memories to me.


----------



## ch1p (Aug 27, 2012)

Tobi is a good _boy_ gives some perspective. The credit fpr Zetsu's existance is given to Madara. That means Zetsu needs to be _older_ than Tobi to be able to call him boy, rendering Kagami / Izuna theory obsolete, lawl.


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> Tobi is a good _boy_ gives some perspective. The credit fpr Zetsu's existance is given to Madara. That means Zetsu needs to be _older_ than Tobi to be able to call him boy, rendering Kagami / Izuna theory obsolete, lawl.



so when Tobi called Konan, a child, that makes Obito theory useless?


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 27, 2012)

Ch1p said:


> Tobi is a good _boy_ gives some perspective. The credit fpr Zetsu's existance is given to Madara. That means Zetsu needs to be _older_ than Tobi, rendering Kagami / Izuna theory obsolete, lawl.


What credit is this? Last I checked Madara seems to think that all that's left of Hashirama is the face on his chest.

 He doesn't even mention Zetsu or the flower. Either he's unaware of them or Madara is a liar. Take your pick, though whether he's a liar or whether he honestly doesn't know implies Tobi did the dirty work of cultivating Zetsu while he was dead, or he's protecting the status of his and Tobi's hideout and may possibly be lying about his little brother's death too.


----------



## Kobe (Aug 27, 2012)

Black Zetsu said he's the earth itself. I wouldn't be surprised if he was around for a long long time. (and we know Senju inherited the earth (body) part from younger son of Rikudou)

Why didn't that garbage called Kakuzu shed light on this being from that era?  Killed by fodder ninjas. Smh.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 27, 2012)

Tzeentch said:


> I want it to be someone stupid just so I can see people rage over it .



good point.... if its Obito i will be raging harder than ever 

i might even make an "Obito Plotholes Checklist"


----------



## Edward Nygma (Aug 27, 2012)

Just for the record, I'm going to go ahead say it's a 50/50 split between Rin and Obito. I'm not 100% sure which, but it's one of them.


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 27, 2012)

*The identity of tobi*​
The mask falls Tobi's face in the dimension of Kamui as he returns to the real world and the Naruto clone dissipates in this dimension

Tobi tries to get up, clutching his face with his back to the alliance. Naruto triumphant look forward to seeing your face.

Kurama-Naruto: No mask to hide

Kakashi: Obito .... .... show yourself.

As Tobi turns to the alliance shows her wrinkled face, an eye and an eye Sharingan Rinnegan.

Gai: Kakashi ...! Do not think that's Obito.

Kakashi: How is this possible ... died during the war?

Naruto: Who is this guy?

Kakashi: Obito's dad is ... Ka ..

Kagami: My name is Kagami and clearly not dead Kakashi.

Kakashi: But ... that's Obito's right eye, I'm sure that ... as it is ...

Kagami: I guess if I'm going to explain how I found my son's eye, should start from the beginning.

Kakashi and Gai As you know, I was an elite uchiha ninja, Tobirama trained with me and was on track to become a senior officer in the uchiha clan. I was born in a family
with just my mother, she never talked about my father, no one did, I assumed he had died in battle during the formation of the Leaf Village.

When I was young Tobirama and Hashirama took a special interest in me, Hashirama put me under the guidance of Tobirama, at that time I thought it was a privilege but I would realize that there were more reasons behind this.

A couple of days before the death of Tobirama, this drew me aside and told me about my father, Madara.

Kakashi: You are the son of Madara?!

Kurama-Naruto: I see, this makes sense.

Kagami: Kyubi let me finish.

Tobirama trusted not to betray him, told me that during the battle between Hashirama and Madara, both sides were running out, they both knew that if this continued both die.

Tobirama was still young at that time, and had not advanced their jutsu E / T enough to be the leader of the sheet, so my father decided to make a sacrifice.

Flashback ** **

Madara: Hashirama if we continue, both die, and leaf fall, however I want my clan lead the Leaf Village, ninjas do not want to be substitutable for another hidden village.

Hahirama: What are you saying?

Madara: disappear, I will not put in pie in the sheet again, you can go back and lead the village, while not bring harm to my clan, I said that if I discarded back, wanting to bring peace.

Hashirama: As I can trust you?

Madara: My wife just had our first child, we named Kagami, I trust, while my son is not betrayed by the Senju clan, not back.

Flashback Ends ** **

Kagami: Tobirama died a few days later in an ambush attack, leaving Hiruzen in charge. I continued to live in the village of respect for my father and the sacrifice he made ​​until my son Obito died and that's when I had the help of Danzou to fake my death.

Gai: Why would you do that?

Kagami: There had been rumors that my father was still alive. I needed to find, after losing my son, was named Hokage Namikaze Minato, Kakashi became a hero, and my son was left with nothing. Danzou agreed to help on one condition.

Kakashi: That condition was that?

Kagami:'ll get to that soon.

After leaving the village was able to locate my father, he was old and his body was not in condition to fight.

He was angry with me for leaving the village, told him about Obito and introduced me to Zetsu, who was able to bring me Obito's body, where I caught her eye.
One thing that the legend was uchiha never had a father who took his son's eyes. The MS was activated immediately, the pulsating excitement of receiving his eye was enough to activate it, luckily for you I got the eye Kamui was for defense and you had the offensive.

I just needed my father taught me one thing, how to control the Kyuubi.

Gai: The condition ....

Kakashi: It was that ....

Kagami: The condition that the root help Uchiha coup in the Leaf Village, little did I know that the end game had really planned Danzou.

*WARNING* *THIS IS A SPOILER PREDICTION ONLY THE MANGA AND VIDEO WELL BE PUBLISHED OR LEAVE NARUTO MANGA 599*​


----------



## Mistshadow (Aug 27, 2012)

jacamo said:


> good point.... if its Obito i will be raging harder than ever
> 
> i might even make an "Obito Plotholes Checklist"



rage for being ignorant of possibilties, sounds about right.


----------



## Eternity (Aug 27, 2012)

There was a grave in Kakashi's thinking bubble. Have anyone thought about the possibility that Obito might actually have been found and buried?


----------



## Not Sure (Aug 27, 2012)

Naruto = OH...MY...GAWD lol this is too funny!
Ichiraku Guy = What? Is it that much of a stretch that I'm Tobi??
Naruto = Actually yeah...Dude you're the guy that makes noodles. You joking right? Kurama! Ay' man I thought you said he smelled like Madara?
Kurama = ...My bad, damn. Maybe Madara ate his noodles all the time.
Ichiraku Guy = Hey I have a name you know...see I really AM nobody. You eat at my freakin shop everyday and you still don't know my name!!! Have you ever seen your face when you eat? Nasty. How can someone eat noodles everyday? I mean, I mean do you eat anything else? Oh, oh and I see you pretending to casually walk past my shop before it opens...trying to be first in line and shit. Hungry much?! You ain't foolin' nobody with that!!!
Kakashi = whoa whoa whoa, wait a minute here...so you're the noodle guy? Gai you see this sh**?
Gai = I know right? I mean we took him seriously and was like "We're going to defeat you Tobi" and er'thang! lol I even broke out my chucks and er'thang. For real man, the noodle guy??
Hachibi = Bee don't do it dude...dude no don't even...
Bee = ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL YEEEEEAAAAAHHHHHHHHH BOOOOOOOOOOOIIII!!!
Hachibi = ...here we go
Bee = Don't know his name, or his fame, but he so lame! Call me rude, but that's the noodle dude! Makin' em cry and makin' me shine e-very time we laugh at this old, wrinkly guy!
Ichiraku Guy = :::Facepalms::: See this is the sh** that...you what? I'm going home :'( 

By Nier.


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

Tzeentch said:


> I want it to be someone stupid *like Kagami* just so I can see people rage over it .


I don't. 

He'd better not be someone stupid, especially not Kagami...

Tobi being Kagami would suck. You'd think people would want to recognize the man behind the mask, but noooo..... he's that random irrelevant guy we saw in Danzo's flashback. 

He has nothing to do with the plot and it would be the stupidest thing ever.

Good thing it's not him, though. 




Not Sure said:


> Naruto = OH...MY...GAWD lol this is too funny!
> Ichiraku Guy = What? Is it that much of a stretch that I'm Tobi??
> Naruto = Actually yeah...Dude you're the guy that makes noodles. You joking right? Kurama! Ay' man I thought you said he smelled like Madara?
> Kurama = ...My bad, damn. Maybe Madara ate his noodles all the time.
> ...






			
				Eternity said:
			
		

> There was a grave in Kakashi's thinking bubble. Have anyone thought about the possibility that Obito might actually have been found and buried?


It was probably Rin's grave.


----------



## Eternity (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111, if the manga panel is proof for Rind being dead, then doesn't that mean Obito is dead too, as it says his name too?


----------



## MYJC (Aug 27, 2012)

I can't figure out if people are just trolling with the whole "Tobi is Rin" thing or if they actually believe something that silly.


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

Just thought I'd share this. Some interesting angles. 







			
				Eternity said:
			
		

> ObitoUchiha111, if the manga panel is proof for Rind being dead, then doesn't that mean Obito is dead too, as it says his name too?


What? No. The proof for Rin being dead is that when Kakashi is dying he's thinking "Obito... I'm sorry... I couldn't protect Rin..."

"Obito... RIn... Master... I'll... see you soon.."


----------



## ZeroWolf123 (Aug 27, 2012)

Teuchi with obito's eye


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## ch1p (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Just thought I'd share this. Some interesting angles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If the tomb we see Kakashi mourning at is Rin's, then it means there's a body, no? The stone monolith is for only those who were KIA and never returned I believe.


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 27, 2012)

*Enough already. Enough.*

Ok guys. I don't know what time it is for all you guys, but where I am, it's Monday night. Spoilers come out Tuesday night. Most likely Tobi is going to be "revealed" next chapter. Can you guys stop arguing and b*tching for one day? Tomorrow, let's talk about other things, important things: like the Juubi's revival, the scroll, or Oro's plans...or even how useless Sakura is. Besides, who cares anymore, I mean, it's already pretty much established that Tobi is Obito, just start getting your congratulation speeches for the Tobito theorists ready because honestly they deserve it (I know I've been one of the biggest Tobito haters and I gave them hell).

Tobi revealing himself will not be some great plot key until we get a flashback on how everything happened with him and Madara, besides that, it's just a face that we probably already know and Kishi has already revealed in the last chapter...Obito. 

So just stop now, the raging will be a lot smoother if you guys just stop caring/accepting now.


Tl;Dr - STOP THEORIZING. STOP CARING.


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## boohead (Aug 27, 2012)

Tobi is future TENTEN


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## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

I will never stop caring about Tobi's identity! 

Besides, this is our last day of crazy debates over this guy's identity, and it's one of my favorite things to do, so I'll keep debating 'till the end!


----------



## ovanz (Aug 27, 2012)

Why do you care if people are over-emotional over that topic? I'll just watch their rage while eating pop corn.

Tobi identity threads are more than half the threads in the library lol.


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## Wizard (Aug 27, 2012)

I have a solution to your problem: log off tonight

log in tomorrow


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## Tharris (Aug 27, 2012)

Mistshadow said:


> ~snip~
> because you say that it is 100% impossible to be obito.......................despite there are countless of things pointing towards that being reality



There are quite a bit of things pointing away from that being the reality as well...
Just sayin'.


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## ZERO PHOENIX (Aug 27, 2012)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> Ok guys. I don't know what time it is for all you guys, but where I am, it's Monday night. Spoilers come out Tuesday night. Most likely Tobi is going to be "revealed" next chapter. Can you guys stop arguing and b*tching for one day? Tomorrow, let's talk about other things, important things: like the Juubi's revival, the scroll, or Oro's plans...or even how useless Sakura is. Besides, who cares anymore, I mean, it's already pretty much established that Tobi is Obito, just start getting your congratulation speeches for the Tobito theorists ready because honestly they deserve it (I know I've been one of the biggest Tobito haters and I gave them hell).
> 
> Tobi revealing himself will not be some great plot key until we get a flashback on how everything happened with him and Madara, besides that, it's just a face that we probably already know and Kishi has already revealed in the last chapter...Obito.
> 
> ...



lmfao  people are actually taking this shit seriously? It's a comic book.  A poorly written one at that. Man I love the internet.


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## RaidenisDead (Aug 27, 2012)

I've kept my distance from all of the Tobi theories. I don't even read spoilers anymore. Everything is going to be as big of a surprise as it can be when it comes out.

Why make people stop for one night when you have endured so many others.


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## General Mael Radec (Aug 27, 2012)

TOBI IS RIN


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## Jiraiya4Life (Aug 27, 2012)

WEDNESDAY WILL BE LIKE CHRISTMAS!


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## Undead (Aug 27, 2012)

Wizard said:


> I have a solution to your problem: log off tonight
> 
> log in tomorrow


You're like some kind of genius or something.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 27, 2012)

You making this topic just influenced people to continue theorizing.


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## TobiUchiha5941 (Aug 27, 2012)

I myself have been a strong believer in the elder son theory, but I realized that  it had *ZERO* evidence to back it up. same goes for the izuna/kagami/shisui theories. there all just speculation no actual hints pointing towards them. in fact the only hints about his identity have been at tobito. and don't people remember that if you transplant a sharingan it can't be turned off? thats why obito tobi wears a one eye'd mask, to cover the sharingan thats been transplanted into him so it doesn't drain chakra.The other one is exposed so that means he can turn off the other sharingan. *because its native to the body* and obito was missing his right eye before he ''died''. so there is no doubt that its obito behind the mask and anyone saying otherwise are just in denial.


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## Naruko (Aug 27, 2012)

Either a theory pans out or it doesn't. It's not the end of the world either way, we read, we move on. In the meantime I am closing this because I don't want to encourage bickering between users or users to be talking about each other instead of the manga proper.

Go out, have fun, read the manga when it arrives and enjoy. Relax. Life is too short and often brutal to get hung up about this sorta thing.


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## SaiST (Aug 27, 2012)

Naruko said:


> Either a theory pans out or it doesn't. It's not the end of the world either way, we read, we move on. In the meantime I am closing this because I don't want to encourage bickering between users or users to be talking about each other instead of the manga proper.
> 
> Go out, have fun, read the manga when it arrives and enjoy. Relax. Life is too short and often brutal to get hung up about this sorta thing.


... wewps :x


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## MinatoEMS (Aug 27, 2012)

Jiraiya4Life said:


> WEDNESDAY WILL BE LIKE CHRISTMAS!



yea christmas waking up to coal to find out that kishi trolled us and jumped to sasuke or madara


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## Tharris (Aug 27, 2012)

MinatoEMS said:


> yea christmas waking up to coal to find out that kishi trolled us and jumped to sasuke or madara



I will boycott the new chapters until Tobi is revealed.

except I CANT! DAMN IT! I like story too much...

But I'd want to.


----------



## Lee-Sensei (Aug 27, 2012)

It doesn't make much sense, but Tobi is probably Obito.


----------



## atduncan (Aug 27, 2012)

Tobi is Vegeta


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## Tharris (Aug 27, 2012)

atduncan said:


> Tobi is Vegeta



He can't be Vegeta and Mojo Jojo, think about it Chemical X = Senju Cells and it all makes sense.


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## Menacing Eyes (Aug 27, 2012)

TobiUchiha5941 said:


> but I realized that  it had *ZERO* evidence to back it up. same goes for the izuna/kagami/shisui theories.


I'm sorry but I wouldn't be predicting that Tobi is Izuna without some evidence. It gets annoying when people go around saying that Izuna has no evidence to back it up, when that clearly isn't the case.

My entire post on it is here.




*Spoiler*: __ 







> *Devoted, Peace Loving*





Matches Tobi's actions and goal pretty well, and waiting all of these years to ensure that it happens would show a great deal of devotion, don't you think?




The only thing apparently stopping it is that Madara "confirmed" that he's dead, which might just be a lie, or ambiguous wording that could imply that he was brought back. He did say that the only thing left of Hashirama was that face on his chest, and that isn't exactly true, now is it? There's a huge ass flower growing in Tobi's hideout and then there's Zetsu.

-------------------------------------------

*TL;DR*, Izuna has horoscope info to back it up, and it would fit nicely with Kishi's writing style if he were to link Izuna and Obito via Obito's eye. Not to mention that we'd all be able to easily identify Izuna because he has that prominent lip. 

Sharing birthdays, sharing bloodtypes, color scheme preferences, and sharing an eye.


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

Menacing Eyes said:


> I'm sorry but I wouldn't be predicting that Tobi is Izuna without some evidence. It gets annoying when people go around saying that Izuna has no evidence to back it up, when that clearly isn't the case.
> 
> My entire post on it is here.
> 
> ...


HE'S NOT IZUNA!!! 

Look at my post . It completely disproves the theory! 

Besides, Obito fits perfectly with Kishi's writing style. Much better than Izuna.

And Obito paralleled Naruto so that charisma thing in the horoscope could apply to him! 

Obito may have just been alot like Izuna so Madara healed him and took him in as his apprentice.

Yeah, that's it.

AHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

(I'm starting to go insane... I had this crazy nightmare last night that Tobi was Izuna and all the Izuna supporters were going around killing the Obito supporters! )


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 27, 2012)

atduncan said:


> Tobi is Vegeta



Vegeta's too cool to be Tobi.


----------



## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:
			
		

> Tobi's too cool to be Vegeta.


Fixed!


----------



## Tharris (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> HE'S NOT IZUNA!!!
> 
> Look at my post . It completely disproves the theory!
> 
> ...



but when Tobi is revealed, no matter who it may be, there will be no supporters... Just those who were right and those who were wrong and those who were neutral.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> HE'S NOT IZUNA!!!
> 
> Look at my post . It completely disproves the theory!


It honestly doesn't.


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## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

SaiST said:
			
		

> It honestly doesn't.


Okay, then.

Give me some rebuttals to my points.


----------



## Menacing Eyes (Aug 27, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Okay, then.
> 
> Give me some rebuttals to my points.



You haven't seen Tobi's face. If Tobi is Izuna then that's literally all it takes. It just means that you came to the wrong conclusions about old age, the zetsu goo and Izuna's motives.


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## NW (Aug 27, 2012)

*Spoiler*: _Check this out_ 



*Obito started to tear up when that rock Shinobi came at him. He later dismissed it as having something in his eye, but he clearly couldn't have as he had his goggles on the whole time. More recently, in Tobi's fight with Naruto, he started to sweat, but quickly dismissed it as the rain, when it clearly came out of his glove. Those similar personality traits! *


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## Mistshadow (Aug 28, 2012)

Tharris said:


> There are quite a bit of things pointing away from that being the reality as well...
> Just sayin'.



Obviously, there are points pointing towards and pointing away from just about EVERY identity, except kagami *there is absolutely nothing pointing towards him.
The point is that because of these points, we are not to exclude obito as a possibility. to say obito is IMPOSSIBLE is to be ignorant and believe that you are writing the manga, when we are not kishi himself and he has done crazier things, cough juubi moon cough,


----------



## Lightysnake (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm hedging my bet on Izuna for a few reasons:

Age. If Tobi is old enough to know Nagato as a child and inspire Yahiko to form Akatsuki, Obito doesn't sit right there.

Themes...the brothers together in the cycle of hatred

At this point he's hinted too much at being Obito. It's enough to introduce an enormous swerve rather than a "AHA!"

Kabuto revived every dead ninja he could get his hands on...but not Izuna? Seems odd, if he revived Madara.

so here is my guess:

Madara sacrificed himself in some way to revive Izuna, entrusting plans to him, along with a future revival.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 28, 2012)

Lightysnake said:


> I'm hedging my bet on Izuna for a few reasons:
> 
> Age. If Tobi is old enough to know Nagato as a child and inspire Yahiko to form Akatsuki, Obito doesn't sit right there.
> 
> ...



I say this almost every time someone says "TOBI IS IZUNA!". What. Would. Be. The. Point. Of. The. Mask.


----------



## Darth inVaders (Aug 28, 2012)

Tobi is definitely the never before mentioned...

...brother named Noatak, he also goes by the name Amon

...father named Norman Osborn, he also goes by the name Green Goblin

...name a Scoobie-Doo villain, any Scoobie-Doo villain

That is, unless he is really...

...a giant douche

...a giant turd

...a giant Byakugan pissed off that it has been trolled by the other 2 dojutsu


----------



## SaiST (Aug 28, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> Okay, then.
> 
> Give me some rebuttals to my points.


_* SaiST sighs._


*Spoiler*: __ 




As I've already explained to you—numerous times—Madara's statement only confirms what was generally known long before: that Izuna passed away. Due to the context of the conversation, it does not necessarily infer that Izuna is *still* dead, or deny the possibility of him being revived at a later time.
Kishimoto hasn't really portrayed any distinct middle ground for the appearance of those neither too old or young—at least, not when it comes to skin complexion. Izuna was relatively young when he passed away to begin with, and the means by which he could have been revived along with the integration of Hashirama's genetic material are also factors to consider.
Izuna also happens to share the same birthday, and blood type as Obito. 
The length and style of Izuna's hair would also be consistent with Tobi's back when he presumably first revealed himself to both Kisame, and Itachi.
Tobi could have been involved in the recovery of Obito's body, which—assuming he was the kind of experienced Shinobi many people expect he was at the time—wouldn't have been impeded much by a pile of boulders... Also, as indicated by the manner in which he supported Deidara during his bout with Sasuke, it's probable that he can use Doton.
It's been made clear that Tobi has stuck to the shadows, gathering intel on all those that pique his interest either directly, or through Zetsu. Awareness of details concerning both Kakashi and Gai wouldn't be all that far-fetched if he wasn't Obito, and doesn't necessarily confirm interpersonal history between them.
Tobi didn't have to *know* that Obito's eye had the potential to advance to the Mangekyou Sharingan; though probable as it is due to the fact that he and Itachi alluded to Sasuke's acquisition of it. If he is an Uchiha that has already awakened to the power of the Mangekyou Sharingan—like Izuna—advancing Obito's Sharingan to that point, or circumventing the commonly known method of doing so(as many presume Kakashi did) would hardly be that difficult to grasp.

Under the assumption that both Izuna and Madara read all that they could of that stone tablet's contents, reviewing it after so much time has passed with his renewed ocular power hardly sounds suspicious.
As pointed out a few times before, Izuna looks about as similar to Madara as Sasuke does to Itachi. He does not have Madara's signature eye bags, possesses distinct, full lips, and his hair—while similar in length—did not share the same volume, or style as Madara's. I don't know why you keep insisting that they're practically twins.



Now, I'd appreciate it if you cease shoving that link to your post into the faces of anybody who at least mentions the possibility of Tobi being Izuna, as if it completely rules it out—it doesn't!

You have turned into the bizarro jacamo. 



HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> I say this almost every time somemone says "TOBI IS IZUNA!". What. Would. Be. The. Point. Of. The. Mask.


The entire time? Or more recently?

Putting aside the obvious narrative excuses, he's been building up this facade as Madara for... What? The better part of two decades?

You honestly don't believe that Tobi should have just nonchalantly tossed the mask as soon as he was outed by Kabuto, do you?


----------



## Darth inVaders (Aug 28, 2012)

Tobi is Ra's al Ghul

...No, he is definitely 1000 % confirmed to be Jason Todd

...I'm sorry, he is 100000% confirmed to be Bucky Barnes


----------



## Abanikochan (Aug 28, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> What. Would. Be. The. Point. Of. The. Mask.



That's cuz he wants people to know him by his beautiful voice and not his sunburns. 


*Spoiler*: __ 




DUUUUUUUN DUN DUN DUN DUN DUN!


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## Mistshadow (Aug 28, 2012)

I think Izuna is Obito is Tobi



mind blown


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## GKY (Aug 28, 2012)

Tobi has Obito's eyes and possibly his entire body, but it's someone else's consciousness.


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## Rax (Aug 28, 2012)

Tobi = Rin


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## Osaeri (Aug 28, 2012)

I really really really want it to be Izuna.


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## jacamo (Aug 28, 2012)

Wizard said:


> I have a solution to your problem: log off tonight
> 
> log in tomorrow



certain people here are too obsessive to consider this an option


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## Vagabond (Aug 28, 2012)

*expect the next few days which ever way the reveal will go there'll be a lot of butthurt and flame posts.*


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## MaskedMan88 (Aug 28, 2012)

tobi is strictly a pawn for madara... the only thing tobi was ever meant to do was carry out the moons eye plan which was originally madaras plan...

tobi was supposed to resurrect madara with nagato's rinnegan... after madara died. tobi wore madaras mask as odes to his new master...

this is why tobi is obito... obito was saved by madara... its a similiar them to haku and zabuza.... a full fledged pawn.


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## Friday (Aug 28, 2012)

I've always wanted it to be Obito. I'm gonna go with it being him, although it may be a little bit TOO obvious to delay so much at this point.

I don't know who else it could be.


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## Grendel (Aug 28, 2012)

Friday said:


> I've always wanted it to be Obito. I'm gonna go with it being him, although it may be a little bit TOO obvious to delay so much at this point.
> 
> I don't know who else it could be.



I think a lot of people expected the mask to just come off and till that point no obvious clues...rather than how kishi seems to be doing it by building it up over a few chapters...


----------



## Jay. (Aug 28, 2012)




----------



## Xin (Aug 28, 2012)

I just found this: 



Zetsu said that Tobi is a good *kid* 

hmm.. i wonder why


----------



## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Aug 28, 2012)

DavidBenjamin said:


> I just found this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's older than old.


----------



## Shakar (Aug 28, 2012)

Well, Zetsu seems to be very old, a 29-30 person may seem like a kid to him.


----------



## Eternity (Aug 28, 2012)

The ring slipped through his hand, I think this is the first recorded manga proof of his powers. I find that quite cool.


----------



## Xin (Aug 28, 2012)

Eternity said:


> The ring slipped through his hand, I think this is the first recorded manga proof of his powers. I find that quite cool.



Haha. Never noticed that. Quite funny


----------



## handsock (Aug 28, 2012)

*What if Tobi is...*

Konohamaru's dad. He's never mentioned at all in the manga really. Not once I believe. He's no one. He know's stuff. He's a Sarutobi. Sarutobi's are badass. Imagine one with an Obito eye.


----------



## Xin (Aug 28, 2012)

> Konohamaru's dad. He's never mentioned at all in the manga really. Not once I believe. He's no one. He know's stuff. He's a Sarutobi. Sarutobi's are badass. Imagine one with an Obito eye.



Well, its the last change to bring things like that up


----------



## Kid (Aug 28, 2012)

he's a saru Tobi


----------



## Ginkurage (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm officially rolling with him being Rin. Don't really care who it is but that's my guess.


----------



## sadino (Aug 28, 2012)

Izuna or some non Uchiha Sonovacrap that no one could ever guessed.


----------



## Chibason (Aug 28, 2012)

Eternity said:


> The ring slipped through his hand, I think this is the first recorded manga proof of his powers. I find that quite cool.



What I slways found interesting about that panel is that Tobi seems to surprised by the ring phasing through his hand...almost like he hadn't gained complete control of his powers yet...


----------



## V The Wonderman (Aug 28, 2012)

Izuna definently, at least in some sense. There's Zetsu in the mix there. With all the bonds, brothers, and themes going on there's got be more for Madaras and Izuna's relationship. I predict some sort of mix of a Naruto/Sasuke and Itachi/Sasuke parallels here. I do have total 10-page theory about the whole thing that would give ideas for fanfiction for decades.


----------



## HaxHax (Aug 28, 2012)

Obito was a child when the Kyuubi attack happened. It's a borrowed eye or body-parts.


----------



## Andrew (Aug 28, 2012)

People?s lives, money, husbands and wives are at stake for this very day. Now all shall be revealed and finally no more, no more.


----------



## Chibason (Aug 28, 2012)

HaxHax said:


> Obito was a child when the Kyuubi attack happened. It's a borrowed eye or body-parts.



Wasn't he a teenager? I also noticed, while rereading Kakashi gaiden, that Obito was a few inches taller than Kakashi back then...

...also, during his fight with Minato, Tobi's cloak seemed to be a bit oversized.

Still, it's hard to believe he would've been strong enough to fight Minato...


----------



## Vash (Aug 28, 2012)

Your time to shine is almost here... Izuna


----------



## Xin (Aug 28, 2012)

Chibason said:


> What I slways found interesting about that panel is that Tobi seems to surprised by the ring phasing through his hand...almost like he hadn't gained complete control of his powers yet...



Very good point


----------



## HaxHax (Aug 28, 2012)

Chibason said:


> Wasn't he a teenager? I also noticed, while rereading Kakashi gaiden, that Obito was a few inches taller than Kakashi back then...
> 
> ...also, during his fight with Minato, Tobi's cloak seemed to be a bit oversized.
> 
> Still, it's hard to believe he would've been strong enough to fight Minato...



Well, Naruto was born on the day of the attack, so let's see..

30 (Current Kakashi) - 16 (Current Naruto) .. So, I'm going to assume he would have been 14 at the time. His death was at 13. Giving him one or two years to go from crushed child to stronger than Minato.. Yeah, uh..


----------



## Kazekage Gaara (Aug 28, 2012)

What if it is Obito, and he was strong against Minato because Madara saved him that day and somehow made him awaken Mangekyo Sharingan. It still hasn't been explained how Kakashi got Mangekyo. It could be that when Obito's Mangekyo awakened, Kakashi's did too because it's basically the same Sharingan, just in different bodies. And with those powers Obito could have been stronger.


----------



## Chibason (Aug 28, 2012)

Im going to go with this as my preferred possibility-- 

Madara was just a mantle taken on by a chosen Uchiha warrior from each generation after the real Madara's death. Kyuubi invasion Tobi was Fugaku, current Tobi is likely Obito.


----------



## Eternity (Aug 28, 2012)

I like that idea Chibason. 




Chibason said:


> What I slways found interesting about that panel is that Tobi seems to surprised by the ring phasing through his hand...almost like he hadn't gained complete control of his powers yet...



Well, he used that power to a great extent when Naruto was born, so I don't think so


----------



## xAmaryllis (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm going to go with Obito. There's so much hints!


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 28, 2012)

Reread the fight.  Minato clearly outclassed him.  There were no great techniques or skill used by Tobi.  They're all MS and there really isn't much learning curve with MS.  Then you add in the fact Obito has Senju DNA body parts it's not farfetched with a hax power that he could get beat by Minato lol.   

When Sasuke fought Bee with his MS it's not like he was sitting there wondering why his MS abilities were failing to activate.  No he burned Bee when he used it.


----------



## Chibason (Aug 28, 2012)

HaxHax said:


> Well, Naruto was born on the day of the attack, so let's see..
> 
> 30 (Current Kakashi) - 16 (Current Naruto) .. So, I'm going to assume he would have been 14 at the time. His death was at 13. Giving him one or two years to go from crushed child to stronger than Minato.. Yeah, uh..



Seems unlikely, right?....and yet it may still be the case 



Eternity said:


> I like that idea Chibason.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah it wouldnt make sense at all... unless there were multiple 'Tobis' and he was the newest one...


----------



## ch1p (Aug 28, 2012)

Chibason said:


> Im going to go with this as my preferred possibility--
> 
> Madara was just a mantle taken on by a chosen Uchiha warrior from each generation after the real Madara's death. Kyuubi invasion Tobi was Fugaku, current Tobi is likely Obito.



This qas brought before, but spanning as far as the elder son's from what I recall. It's such a great idea, I'd really like this to come true.



Raventhal said:


> Reread the fight.  Minato clearly outclassed him.  There were no great techniques or skill used by Tobi.  They're all MS and there really isn't much learning curve with MS.  Then you add in the fact Obito has Senju DNA body parts it's not farfetched with a hax power that he could get beat by Minato lol.
> 
> When Sasuke fought Bee with his MS it's not like he was sitting there wondering why his MS abilities were failing to activate.  No he burned Bee when he used it.



The only things Tobi used besides MS was a kunai and a bunch of exploding tags.  People greatly exaggerate Tobi's fight.


----------



## NW (Aug 28, 2012)

SaiST said:


> As pointed out a few times before, Izuna looks about as similar to Madara as Sasuke does to Itachi. He does not have Madara's signature eye bags, possesses distinct, full lips, and his hair—while similar in length—did not share the same volume, or style as Madara's. I don't know why you keep insisting that they're practically twins.


Um, Tobi does however have "eyebags" that strongly resemble Madara's eyebags. So, that's not really a problem. And who cares about his hair? People want to recognize him by his face, not his hair. Tobi currently has very short hair and they still took his word for being Madara. So, the hair doesn't matter. And I don't think a difference in his lips is going to make people think he's someone else. So, the only real thing keeping people from thinking he was Madara would be his lips. And I highly doubt that would be a problem. I also doubt anyone even knew about Izuna, let alone what he looked like. Ohnoki fought Madara and probably has a vague memory of what he looked like, so if Izuna took off the mask I highly doubt Ohnoki's gonne think he's not Madara and scream "ZOMFG IZUNA!!!!" 



> You have turned into the bizarro jacamo.


No I haven't!  It's just that nightmare I had two nights ago about Tobi being Izuna! It's killing me within! 



MaskedMan88 said:


> tobi is strictly a pawn for madara... the only thing tobi was ever meant to do was carry out the moons eye plan which was originally madaras plan...
> 
> tobi was supposed to resurrect madara with nagato's rinnegan... after madara died. tobi wore madaras mask as odes to his new master...
> 
> this is why tobi is obito... obito was saved by madara... its a similiar them to haku and zabuza.... a full fledged pawn.


Exactly this. Especially with all the other parallels between Tobi and Haku. Tobi being Obito would be very symbolic and would represent the story coming full circle. Also, in chapter 16: "Who Are You?!" you can see Obito on the cover page! 

Also, were't you just supporting Kagami about a week ago? Glad to see you've come to the light! 



HaxHax said:


> Well, Naruto was born on the day of the attack, so let's see..
> 
> 30 (Current Kakashi) - 16 (Current Naruto) .. So, I'm going to assume he would have been 14 at the time. His death was at 13. Giving him one or two years to go from crushed child to stronger than Minato.. Yeah, uh..


So, someone who's at least 15 wouldn't be able to be that tall? Are you kidding me?!

And Tobi wasn't stronger than Minato. Stop trying to twist things around.


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 28, 2012)

tonight at midnight we will get the official spoilers of chapter 599 like an hour before the manga is released


----------



## Kishido (Aug 28, 2012)

Even if he will be revelead next chapter there will be still a lot of people which will say... HE IS LYING... Just wait for next chapters and the true story.

Tobi always lied


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 28, 2012)

KiShiDo said:


> Even if he will be revelead next chapter there will be still a lot of people which will say... HE IS LYING... Just wait for next chapters and the true story.
> 
> Tobi always lied



not always he lies about himself as far as the manga goes because he tells have truth half lies


----------



## NW (Aug 28, 2012)

> Even if he will be revelead next chapter there will be still a lot of people which will say... HE IS LYING... Just wait for next chapters and the true story.
> 
> Tobi always lied


How the fuck could he be lying when his face is clearly shown?! 

When Tobi's identity is revealed, it will actually be the REVEAL of his TRUE IDENTITY. Otherwise, what's the point?


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 28, 2012)

Osaeri said:


> I really really really want it to be Izuna.



Too bad it won't be.



MaskedMan88 said:


> tobi is strictly a pawn for madara... the only thing tobi was ever meant to do was carry out the moons eye plan which was originally madaras plan...
> 
> tobi was supposed to resurrect madara with nagato's rinnegan... after madara died. tobi wore madaras mask as odes to his new master...
> 
> this is why tobi is obito... obito was saved by madara... its a similiar them to haku and zabuza.... a full fledged pawn.



Weren't you a Kagami supporter?


----------



## Mugivara (Aug 28, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> How the fuck could he be lying when his face is clearly shown?!
> 
> When Tobi's identity is revealed, it will actually be the REVEAL of his TRUE IDENTITY. Otherwise, what's the point?



You'll get disappointed on Tobi's identify and then will start to say he's Izuna


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 28, 2012)

The best most amazing solution would be for Tobi to be four people. His name would be an acronym for them 

T - Tobirama

O - Obito

B - Shisui (his real name is actually Bhisui!!)

I - Izuna


Everyone would begin to worship Kishi.


----------



## Easley (Aug 28, 2012)

ObitoUchiha111 said:


> How the fuck could he be lying when his face is clearly shown?!
> 
> When Tobi's identity is revealed, it will actually be the REVEAL of his TRUE IDENTITY. Otherwise, what's the point?


Kishi created this problem when he made Tobi into a liar - well, an actor is more accurate. It's hard to trust him even when you _think_ he's telling the truth, or showing his "real" face. 

I'd be very upset if the reveal of his true identity is not genuine. It would be a cruel troll by Kishimoto.


----------



## NW (Aug 28, 2012)

Mugivara said:


> You'll get disappointed on Tobi's identify and then will start to say he's Izuna


What do you mean? I'd never say he was Izuna... 

Obito FTW! 

There's no way I'd be dissapointed with Tobi being Obito! 

It'd be awesome! 



Easley said:


> Kishi created this problem when he made Tobi into a liar - well, an actor is more accurate. It's hard to trust him even when you _think_ he's telling the truth, or showing his "real" face.


True, but at least we know his flashbacks will be legit since they're well, flashbacks. There's no fakin' those! 



> I'd be very upset if the reveal of his true identity is not genuine. It would be a cruel troll by Kishimoto.


Yeah, it'd suck. What's the point of one big reveal if you're just going to tell his real identity in a less impactful twist?


----------



## Flynn (Aug 28, 2012)

Inb4 real power of kamui is time jumping.


----------



## MaskedMan88 (Aug 28, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Too bad it won't be.
> 
> 
> 
> Weren't you a Kagami supporter?



yea but my faith is running dry... it will most likely be obito im not dumb if not obito then i think kagami is only other option... both can be explained but obito is way more relevant now.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 28, 2012)

Tobito supporters, please explain this:

*Note:* Many people have already pointed this out, but the Tobito supporters just happily ignored it or replied with a stupid response like: "Madara did it ". So, I'm just gonna say it again.

Remember when Tobi said: I was the one who spurred Yahiko to form Akatsuki". And "I was the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan" ?

Well, those two statements make no sense and are fibs.

Yahiko, Konan, and Nagato lived during the third great shinobi war. Obito was born *after* that.

So if Tobi is Obito, then how the fuck did he give Nagato the Rinnegan if he was born after the third war? 

Makes no sense.

Please explain this.


----------



## SaiST (Aug 28, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Tobito supporters, please explain this:
> 
> *Note:* Many people have already pointed this out, but the Tobito supporters just happily ignored it or replied with a stupid response like: "Madara did it ". So, I'm just gonna say it again.
> 
> ...


_"Madara did it"_ may not be a complete answer, but it's appropriate, seeing as how Tobi was posing as him.


----------



## Raventhal (Aug 28, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Tobito supporters, please explain this:
> 
> *Note:* Many people have already pointed this out, but the Tobito supporters just happily ignored it or replied with a stupid response like: "Madara did it ". So, I'm just gonna say it again.
> 
> ...



Lol, are you arguing for or against Tobito?  Obvious if Tobi is Obito he didn't do those things.  It's like you guys can't take the next step in logic or is it you would have to even considering Tobi is Obito lol.

I say I am the Hamburgler and I stole hamburgers on Hamburger Hill in Vietnam War.  Comes to find out that I was only faking that I was the Hamburgler.  Are you going to assume that I was telling the truth or take everything as a possible lie or a Hamburgler feat?


----------



## Jak N Blak (Aug 28, 2012)

Never gave a fuck about this shit but what the hell.

Its Obito.


----------



## PositiveEmotions (Aug 28, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Tobito supporters, please explain this:
> 
> *Note:* Many people have already pointed this out, but the Tobito supporters just happily ignored it or replied with a stupid response like: "Madara did it ". So, I'm just gonna say it again.
> 
> ...



do u even know how many times tobi has lied? he went claiming that he was uchiha madara which allot of us knew it was a big lie


----------



## Lurko (Aug 28, 2012)

Prediction before chapter: tobi is ..... obiti! , duh da done!


----------



## Eternity (Aug 28, 2012)

Prediction:


He is nobody.


----------



## Target (Aug 28, 2012)

tobi is shishui obitos older brother madaras pupil who took his eye and gave away his to fake his death for his masters diabolical plan.

While I think the odds of this are pretty low im pretty sure if tobi if either of the two they will certainly be brothers for the sob story and uchiha prodigys always come in two


----------



## Vash (Aug 28, 2012)

Jak N Blak said:


> Never gave a fuck about this shit but what the hell.
> 
> Its Obito.



Brother, what is this? 

Shit's about to go down Uchiha style! We. Are. On. Team. Izuna


----------



## Yachiru (Aug 28, 2012)

OBITO BITCHES

ITS CANON


----------



## T-Bag (Aug 28, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Tobito supporters, please explain this:
> 
> *Note:* Many people have already pointed this out, but the Tobito supporters just happily ignored it or replied with a stupid response like: "Madara did it ". So, I'm just gonna say it again.
> 
> ...



tobi was assuming madara's identity. it was madara's idea to start akatsuki and who gave nagato the rinnegan. and also the one who fought hashirama for his power


----------



## gemaddog7 (Aug 28, 2012)

Who he turns out to be will have many plotholes, but I bet it'll have nothing to do with Zetsu.


----------



## MonkeyDNaruto (Aug 28, 2012)

Though I believe that Tobi is Obito now...just want to put this in JUST IN CASE:

*Tobi is a body-jumper, and right now he's inhabiting Obito* inb4 chapter 599


----------



## Scizor (Aug 28, 2012)

Tomorrow's going to be fun (here), no matter what happens 

But my true final prediction is that Tobi is Obito.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 28, 2012)

I'm here to drop a 100,000,000 dollar prediction on *Ramen Guy*


----------



## ZERO PHOENIX (Aug 28, 2012)

Whoa whoa hold up. Tobi has the Sharingan right? So when he reveals his face, how will we know we're not in one of his illusions? I mean, can anyone pull ass so we can revive Itachi because I'm sure he'd know for sure if we're dealing with Tobi or a genjutsu.


----------



## Paranoid Android (Aug 28, 2012)

is it weird that im checking the translations board every hour hoping for an early release? lol


----------



## Rica_Patin (Aug 28, 2012)

*THE TRUE IDENTITY OF TOBI!*

*EDIT: Leave the fact that I hate Naruto out of the equation and actually discuss this theory, now that time travel is in the mix I think it's quite possible Tobi might be Naruto or Sasuke from the past :3
*
My predictions even though I don't read Naruto (I couldn't take anymore pain after the Pain arc) and think it's a pile of shit... Tobi... is... NARUTO HIMSELF! FROM THE FUTURE PAST(both the future and the past)! I think it's a perfectly fitting twist in the Naruto universe if we look at Kishi's history of epicly retarded asspulls .

I mean and plus it's easily explainable if Tobi is just Naruto from the future. I mean this is Tobi right?
[sp=Tag yo' shit][/sp]
He just died his hair black at some point and replaced his orange jumpsuit with an orange mask!
[sp=Tag yo' shit][/sp]

Also apparently Tobi wears a gray mask later on as well but didn't Naruto add gray into his jumpsuit in the beginning of part 2? He's just doing it to represent all forms of the past :3.

And what if this actually ends up being the case? I mean maybe not that future past bullshit but just the future? I mean with all this space-time bullshit going around Tobi might just be Naruto from the future . 

Or possibly Sasuke from the future , and then like how about Tobi kills Naruto and Sasuke asspulls into good guy mode again and then gets all like RAHRAHRAHRAH and then the final battle is Sasuke vs. Sasuke.


----------



## ovanz (Aug 28, 2012)

This make sense, except in later episodes tobi change his mask for a gray colored mask.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Aug 28, 2012)

ovanz said:


> This make sense, except in later episodes tobi change his mask for a gray colored mask.



Well didn't Naruto add gray into his jumpsuit in the beginning of part 2? He's just doing it to represent all forms of the past :3.

And what if this actually ends up being the case? I mean maybe not that future past bullshit but just the future? I mean with all this space-time bullshit going around Tobi might just be Naruto from the future . 

Or possibly Sasuke from the future , and then like how about Tobi kills Naruto and Sasuke asspulls into good guy mode again and then gets all like RAHRAHRAHRAH and then the final battle is Sasuke vs. Sasuke.


----------



## LogicalShinobi (Aug 28, 2012)

*I have solved 1 plot hole 100% logical proof shinbo world!!!*

Obito Fans Rejoice and savor the moment!!!

*Hello Naruto Fans!!!
Got a surprise for ya!*


Well this whole suspense in the manga has reached a level which has forced me to get back to Naruto Forums.

Well we know that Kakashi has said that this Tobi uses only one jutsu.Well we know that this one jutsu is Kumai and is from obito's eye.

Are we not forgeting something here?

Well lets see we have 2 jutsu's mentioned.
1-Phasing
2-absorbing objects/people into the other dimension

Well what about the other jutsu tobi was using?

What am I talking about well I am talking about his teleportation jutsu.We know for sure 97.5% that its his sharingan that allows him to teleport right?

Ofcourse because we see him phase away in a panel and teleport away.
(When kakashi first sees tobi's sharingan!!!)

Hmmm...do you guys see where I am going here?

*Tobi's teleportation jutsu is also included in that one jutsu!!! 
*

But that doesnt make sense right how could he teleport in that way.

Well this proves that in that dimension the way time works is totally different then we think.How? Well in that dimension time runs very slow compared to the real world.So Tobi travels... for example 3 days in that dimension but in the real world only 1 second has passed.Hence how he gets places really fast.

But wait 3 days 72 hours Oopps....Things are beginning to come together.

Remember Itachi's Tsukiyomi well that took kakashi to another dimension in which time was moving really slow!!

Very intresting!

Lets make another observation...remember how tobi so easily finds Minato after he teleports away using his Hirashin jutsu.Well this also explains how that happened.
Tobi phased to that dimension and started walking around looking for minato...probably looking at 1000 places before actually finding him but what in the end he finds him and in real life time only 3-4 seconds have passed but in tobis dimension he has been looking for him for maybe 2 weeks.Hence how tobi easily finds people and teleports to them.He moves in his own dimension until he finds what he wants.

So where does this bring us...we are still not done!!!

If some people say that Tobi is Obito has a big plot hole!!!

Yes indeed its a big plot hole. How obito who should be a young kid fought minato as an adult or maybe even old man.Some people said well that dimension is like the hyperbolic time chamber .Well i have just proved it!!!

This still doesnt cover other plot holes though!!
Please tell me what you think and remind me of other things i may have missed.

Thank You


----------



## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Aug 28, 2012)

LogicalShinobi said:


> *I have solved 1 plot hole 100% logical proof shinbo world!!!*
> 
> Obito Fans Rejoice and savor the moment!!!
> 
> ...



A surprisingly interesting theory. I'm not even half convinced its actually correct, but interesting nonetheless.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 28, 2012)

Then how is Naruto fighting Tobi right now?


----------



## Rica_Patin (Aug 28, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Then how is Naruto fighting Tobi right now?



-_- because NARUTO CAME BACK IN TIME AS TOBI AND HE IS FIGHTING HIS PAST SELF!


----------



## Rica_Patin (Aug 28, 2012)

Also I just googled this theory and apparently it's only been posted twice before on the internet from what i've seen :3.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 28, 2012)

Chibason said:


> Im going to go with this as my preferred possibility--
> 
> Madara was just a mantle taken on by a chosen Uchiha warrior from each generation after the real Madara's death. Kyuubi invasion Tobi was Fugaku, current Tobi is likely Obito.



I like the sound of this, it's almost kind of like an evil Batman


----------



## Dream Brother (Aug 28, 2012)

It's Mizuki. 

It's easy to forget just how significant he is -- he is the character that essentially kicked off the plot of the manga when he told Naruto the truth about the Kyuubi. He has quite a tragic story, really...he was the only one who dared to tell the truth in a village devoted to lies, and he was persecuted for this virtue. No wonder he is so vengeful now. He was the first antagonist in the series and he will also be the last.


----------



## hokageji (Aug 28, 2012)

I am gonna bet its not revealed this week.

Some Sasuke shit with flashback, and the revelation would involve the person from the flashback. I am still thinking its Fugaku... Itachi didnt recognize him, so no one would..


----------



## YelloWhite (Aug 28, 2012)

I've always thought that Tobi was the Elder Son of the sage of sixth paths. This guy



I say this because he claims to have given the Rinnengan to Nagato. It could also explain the ability to use Izanagi. When the sage died, he wanted on his sons to continue his dream of peace. When he wasnt chosen, he fought his brother, and thats where the uchihas come from. Maybe the Moons Eye Plan is his way of carrying on his fathers dream.


----------



## Sci-Fi (Aug 28, 2012)

Good discussion for personal choices/predictions for Tobi's identity.
I just want to know a few things about Tobi. Why is his body different? When Sasuke punched him he said "This body...". Tobi was going to remove his mask in front of Sasuke...why do that if he isnt recognized in some fashion by Sasuke? Kisame, Kabuto, and probably a few others knows who he is.
In any case we will finally find out sooner or later. Hate to read the perfect storm comments if Kishi fooled us all or picked one of the theories w/o much explaination or flashbacks.


----------



## m1cojakle (Aug 28, 2012)

*Tobi = Obito from a PARALLEL UNIVERSE...*

Tobi is Obito from a parallel universe.  In his universe everything was destroyed by war and so he came to this universe using his MS in order to save it from the same fate.  In Tobi's universe, Obito never died and he killed Kakashi - his best friend - in order to gain MS.  Or maybe Madara commandeered Obitos body in the other universe and then came to Narutos universe to take over.  Could Tobi's true universe be the one that the new Naruto movie depicts?

You heard it here first, folks.


----------



## Lurko (Aug 28, 2012)

YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## oricon (Aug 28, 2012)

If this was a Marvel comic i would believe that hes from a parallel universe lol.


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 28, 2012)

Stop denying tobito


----------



## Malmortius (Aug 28, 2012)

*Finally revealed, Tobi is freaking future Sasuke?! Wtf*

Apparently what im gathering from reading this is that Sasuke was able to acquire Obitos eye and use it to travel to another dimension using Kamui, or into "the past". And because of what happend to his clan hes trying to create a world with only peace. 

I guess the only reason Current-Sasuke wants to destroy the leaf is because of Tobi - Future Sasuke, told him about what happend and current-sasuke went the other way, so he can revive the 10 tails.

Well played Kishi.


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## Rica_Patin (Aug 28, 2012)

You are stealing my theory


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## TheMusicTensei (Aug 28, 2012)

lola where did you read that? i can read japanese link me.


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## m1cojakle (Aug 28, 2012)

nope. tobi is obito from a parallel universe.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 28, 2012)

Are you serious? There's no time travelling in Naruto. The Future Sasuke theory is garbage.


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## handsock (Aug 28, 2012)

*What if....*

Tobi is the real original Orochimaru? It's possible. He's currently trapped in the sword of Itachiness...and with Sasuke at the same time. What's to say Obito's body was his first body transfer? And the other Orochimaru's we've been seeing are the cursed seal versions of himself? Like the one that is with Sasuke?

Could also give new meaning to this frame...



Maybe he meant that, he thought he had completely cut of the psychic link between himself and Orochimaru.


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## Rica_Patin (Aug 28, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Are you serious? There's no time travelling in Naruto. The Future Sasuke theory is garbage.



Well I'm sure than the whole space time bullshit would have gotten the same reaction if somebody suggested it before it got brought up so HURR.


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## Mistshadow (Aug 28, 2012)

Can't wait a few more hours, wake up in morning and read the chapter.


1. MOST LIKELY: Obito
2. LIKELY: Izuna
3. Unlikely: Setsuna, Kagami, ZetsuClone
4. Impossible: Fugaku, Shisui

I'm done discussing, I already know who I'm going to have a field day with tomorrow


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## gus3 (Aug 28, 2012)

Maybe it'll be like the Empire Strikes Back where Luke broke Darth Vaders mask and saw his own face. *gasp* TOBI MUST BE MENMA!...

Or he's Obito.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 28, 2012)

handsock said:


> Tobi is the real original Orochimaru? It's possible. He's currently trapped in the sword of Itachiness...and with Sasuke at the same time. What's to say Obito's body was his first body transfer? And the other Orochimaru's we've been seeing are the cursed seal versions of himself? Like the one that is with Sasuke?
> 
> Could also give new meaning to this frame...
> 
> ...



No, just no. Tobi is the *real original Orochimaru*? lolwut. Are you trying to imply that the Orochimaru who was revived a few chapters ago is not real? Seriously?

There is no "real original" Orochimaru, son.

There is only *one* Orochimaru (the one who was revived). And he is the original.


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## Wax Knight (Aug 28, 2012)

All roads lead to Obito


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 29, 2012)

Fuck that, Obito a shit.


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## Tharris (Aug 29, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> Are you serious? There's no time travelling in Naruto. The Future Sasuke theory is garbage.



While Time travel may not be canon,
It is indeed in naruto.


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## handsock (Aug 29, 2012)

HeLLzRoLLinG said:


> No, just no. Tobi is the *real original Orochimaru*? lolwut. Are you trying to imply that the Orochimaru who was revived a few chapters ago is not real? Seriously?
> 
> There is no "real original" Orochimaru, son.
> 
> There is only *one* Orochimaru (the one who was revived). And he is the original.



No, I'm saying that it's possible to have multiple orochimaru's on the scene based on the one that's with Sasuke, and also the one currently sealed in Itachi's Susanoo sword. And Obito/Tobi overpowered Orochimaru just like Sasuke did, sealing him from knowing everything there is to know about Tobi.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 29, 2012)

The Future shit is dumb as hell.


My last and finale guess on who it is "drumroll" Izuna 

Only one that it could be.

Obito- Timeline doesnt' fit right w/ him fighting against Minato.
Fugaku- Sure that Danzo and Hiruzen and others would make sure he, out of everyone, was killed specifically. Being the leader of the Uchiha.

Izuna- Never really known what happened to him just that he went blind. Tobi has a collection of eyes and I see the only one with the capabilities and time to get all of them eyes, some I'm sure hold powerfull MS, Maybe why he uses Kamui over all others.


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## XxSepher (Aug 29, 2012)

*Who I Think Tobi Really Is*

Part 2:
You?re just words no actions what someone like you says is worth nothing. It?s too late to regret. Reality is just cruelly moving forward. That?s why I?m pursuing the dream of infinite tsukuyomi, I want to build a world where heroes don?t have to make pitiful excuses in front of graves. (Hint 11: This is where I believed that this could be obito but again the age would not coincide with the other chapters presented like chapter 400, and 590 flash backs. But this was hinting to something I started noticing a continuing trend which I will discuss in a little bit.)

There is one more important event I wanna mention which takes place chapter 462 pg 11-15. This is what Tobi says to Kakashi after Tobi wanted to find out how Naruto got Nagato to betray him. 
Tobi:The myth was based on real events. The rikudo sage preached the way of the ninja and tried to bring peace to the world. But when it was still but a dream, his time came. He had entrusted two boys with the power and will of the way of the ninja. The elder was born with the sages eyes and was gifted with powerful chakras and spiritual energy. He believed that might was the key to peace. The younger was born with the sages body and was gifted with his life force and physical energy he believed love was the key to peace. On his deathbed the sage had to choose a successor. And this eternal curse of hatred was born from that decision. The sage believed that it was the younger, not the elder who was best-suited to be his successor and chose him. Convinced he should have been chosen the elder could not accept the decision and attacked his brother in hatred. Time passed and though their blood had thinned, the descendants of the two brothers still warred with each other. The descendants of the elder were called uchia. And the descendants of the younger we called senju. My battle with the first hokage, senju hashirama was fated. This is only the second time we?ve met. But I can tell the fire of the senju clan dwells within you. I can see the first hokage in you, though dead, he still lives on. He was my rival and I admired him and hated him more than anyone else. (Hint 12: There is a reason why I mentioned this and that is because there is no one at all who knows so much about the history of the senju and uchiha clans. Other than 5 people I can name, 1st hokage, 2nd hokage, 3rd hokage, madara, and orochimaru. The trend here is that they are all dead (well not really orochimaru) but you get the idea.)

So after reading this lengthy thread let me get to the most important part of who I think is the man behind the mask. As I said before it is probably unlikely but it could very well be possible. 

Before I tell you who i think it is, let me mention something important. The person who is Tobi is not an Uchiha. I will tell you why briefly. 

1) From what I have seen and read is that the only one who can use the sharingan to it's full potential and properly is by being an uchiha. For example why why does danzo and kakashi cover their one eye? Is becuase they cant revert the sharingan back to a normal eye. It is constantly active. That means Tobi's eye is constantly active. Which means if you use the sharingan to many times you can go blind. If you are an uchiha and you transfer one sharingan eye to another sharingan eye, that eye would not be active. Hence sasuke getting itachi's eyes. Sasuke's sharingan was never activated unless when he wanted to activate it. Tobi's, Kakashi and even danzo's sharingan eye is always activated thus they cover it. 

2) Why cover the his face? thats something i can't understand but from what i see is that he covers his face from people who may potentially know who he is, but reveals himself to those he has a feeling wont doubt him. For example a very influenced and emotional sasuke. 

3) Hate for the uchiha and the senju ( but as he says to itachi in chapter 590 revenge for konnoha and uchiha he never said revenge for the senju.)

So who do i think is really behind it all? Before I tell you, I would like to give you one more piece of information from chapter 467 pg 17-19 during the kage summit.

Tobi well, do you five kages think you can do any better? Surely you should all have realized by now, there is no such thing as hope. The concept of hope is nothing more than giving up. a word that holds no true meaning. now hand over the remaining hachibi and kyuubi and cooperate with my operation. Otherwise war will be upon us. I may have no power myself?but I have the power of the bijuu I have thus far collected. You have no hope of victory. Very well in that case, I hereby declare the fourth ninja world war.

Who do I think it is. Before I tell you let me give you his bio first "He was the younger brother of Tsunade, and the grandson of Hashirama and Mito. He was also the grandnephew of Tobirama. He shared his dream of becoming hokage with his sister on his twelfth birthday, who gave him their grandfathers necklace in the hopes that he would achieve his ream. The day after his birthday, He died in battle after running into an explosive trap. Orochimaru was with him, implying that orochimaru was his sensi. His body was so heavily mutilated that it was beyond recognition. The necklace was retrieved by orochimaru and returned to devastated tsunade. His personality is very much like naruto. He too held the dream of becoming Hokage and was proud of the title and his grandfather's legacy. As the First's grandson he wanted to earn the title of Hokage and protect the village that his grandfather had founded. He was also described as someone that hated losing and, was an honourable man of justice.

Answer = Nawaki the person who knows the truth is Orochimaru. I say this because there is no one who knows more about uchiha and konoha than nawaki his blood line is directly from the 1st hokage. Orochimaru is mad scientist who took the 1st hokages cells and created yamamoto, hashirama is under the ground giving energy to the zetsu's and spawning thousands of them. If nawaki body was not recognizable, who says he actually died? Who says that he left during the war, gave his necklace to orochimaru used some poor boy as a decoy gave him his clothes and walked away. Nawaki looks jsut like tobi, hair style, he would be the perfect age for the attack that took place when naruto was born. He hates the uchiha because of the history of the senju and uchiha, he hates konoha because in his eyes war never ended. Finally the man reason it could be him, is that Nawaki is the grandson of hashirama he has to have known information about the clans history from books and what not. This is why he wants to create the perfect genjutsu. No war, no nothing. War changes people. War changed Nawaki.

The reason why i said before it might not be possible is hair color. Other than that it's fair game.

What you think.


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## XxSepher (Aug 29, 2012)

*Who I Think Tobi Really Is*

Part 1

Alright everyone, the debate has been going on for a long time since we were first introduced to Tobi. There are a lot of you who believe Tobi is the following, Madara, Izuna, Setsuna, Obito, Shisui and the list probably goes on and on with other names. People have gone too far and have said Tobi is Rin or Sasuke father. But I am going to go even farther and say someone who is probably unlikely but could also possibly be likely. I will disclose that name in the end of my theory. This is going to be long so bare with me. What I will provide is the following, quotes, chapters and their respective pages, as well as alternative interpertation of what I think is what is really being said. 

Let us begin going in order of how these events take place. 

1) Chapter 400: This is where we first see the mysterious man with the mask covering all of his face except reveling one of his eyes. At that point in time, we couldn't tell if he had the sharingan or anything, but his skills are the same as Tobi, where his body is transparent. From this small flashback arc is that this mysterious man hates Konoha. (hint 1: Short spiky hair )

2) Chapter 590: This is where Itachi meets Tobi for the first time (or so I believe) this is during the time Itachi went under his secret mission to slaughter the uchiha clan. This is the the dialogue that took place at that time.
Tobi: How did you know about me?
Itachi: You were able to slip through the uchihas defense and even look at the secret stone inside nakano sanctuary. Only the Uchiha know that place. After that I examined your actions and tried to understand who you aare and what your goal is.
Tobi: Then this will be easy, you probably know that i'm an uchiha and i hold a grudge towards the clan and the village.
Itachi: You must follow my conditions ill help you get revenge on the uchiha but you must not lay a hand on the village.
If you go back and read this chapter and then go and read chapter 400 you will see two things that are similar between the man in the mask. In chapter 400 the man who fights minato wears the mask with lines on his mask and has short hair. In chapter 590 he is wearing the same mask as in chapter 400 (about 5-8 years before) but this time with long hair. (Hint 2: The man in chapter 400 is the same man in chapter 590 (flash back))

Chapter 280: This is the first time we meet Tobi. In this chapter to me and probably to a lot of people who saw this would agree that Tobi seemed to act like a kid and could not be older than 30. This is the dialogue. 
Tobi: I got it!, I got it zetsu-san, with this, i can become a member of akatsuki too right? There is an opening now.
Zetsu: Idiot its not that simple (black zetsu) we can let him in (white zetsu). 
Tobi: Tobi's a good kid... Hey (Hint 3: This tobi has the same hair style as the tobi in chapter 400 just as short but wasnt as long as the man in chapter 590. The other difference is the mask is different. Instead of lines this is a spiral covered mask.)

Chapter 364: The chapters before this is Tobi and Diedara fighting Sasuke in which Tobi apparently died in a big blast. However in this chapter specifically we see a whole different Tobi, a Tobi that is serious, a Tobi whose voice is that of a grown man and not that of a kid or teenager. He has a discussion with Pain and from this chapter we concluded (many of us) that he was not only the leader of Akatsuki but Uchiha Madara here is the dialogue.
Pain: And when they are, everything will be as it should.
Tobi:The Sharingan's true power my power, uchiha madaras power.
(Hint 4: Many have said this is where tobi revealed himself as being madara. I think not. To me he is speaking in 3rd person mode."my power, uchiha madaras power" sound more my power is the power of uchiha madara. To make it simplistic for those who is taking the time to read this. If he really is madara and going on and telling people that he is he should not wear a mask. Furthermore his eye (sharingan eye) is the same eye as obitos eye. Therefore he is not uchiha madara, the sharingan is derived from madara this is what he was trying to be said.)

Chapter 397: This is when Tobi Kidnaps sasuke after sasuke beat itachi 
Tobi: at the time I myself was looking for an opportunity for war. I was bitter towards bot hsenju and uchiha. But itachi realized that, he was the only one who'd figured out I was still alive. (Hint 5: This is different from what Itachi showed sasuke in chapter 590 before he disappeared again. Itachi clearly says i was trying to figure out who you are and what your motives were. Itachi clearly does not know who he is. But he has an assumption of who he thinks it could be. The way I see it is Tobi is twisting things around to make himself seem like what he is telling everyone.)

Chapter 404: Tobi reveals who he is to kisame
Tobi to Kisame: You were the last to know, you were the closes to me, so im sorry for deceiving you.
Kisame: well thats interesting, i never would have suspected you were tobi, i'm relieved it'll be easier for me to do my work with you pulling the strings. Mizukage.... I mean Madara.... (Hint 6: We know the 4th mizukage was being controlled by Tobi, but the thing that has always confused me even now is why did kisame call him mizukage? and the thing is which mizukage was he refering too? then he changed it to Madara. I don't understand why he said that unless her recognized who he was but not many people know what madara looks like or no who he is unless they are very informed or lived during that time.)


Chapter 474 page 12: This is when Tobi and Sasuke attack the summit where the hokages are and where danzo is.
Tobi:Long time no see, danzo since the uchiha incident isn't it (Hint 7: If this is true and danzo knows this and knows what tobi involvement was in the uchiha slaughter than danzo should know who tobi is. But this is where it gets interesting in chapter 479 danzo says "Dosen't look like madaras going to join the fight. He refered to him as madara so i assume that danzo believes tobi is madara but there is no proof behind it.)

Chapter 487 pg 4: This is when Naruto, Kakashi and Sakura go and try to get Sasuke this is when Sasuke kills Danzo. Tobi says to Kakashi when kakashi is about to Kamui on tobi "Dont bother kakashi that wont work on me" (Hint 8: Tobi knows Kakashi if it was Madara I doubt he would know the younger generation's names)

Chapter 489/490: This is the chapter when Kabuto revels to Tobi that Tobi is not madara and that he shows him his ace in the hole by revealing his forbidden technique (the ones orochimaru used against the 3rd hokage) in which he showed Tobi the body of Madara. (Hint 9: right here and there told me exactly what i knew Tobi is not Madara. Because tobi is claiming to be something he is not to make everyone fear him. When reality the man is a poor excuse of a ninja. Maybe itatchi was right when he said "madara is a shell of his former self" but again he is claiming to be him or believes what tobi told him. In reality all Tobi has is Kakshis sharingan makes his body transparent and sends people to other dimensons and uses summoning jutsu. As you can tell the madara fighting the kages is in god mode tobi is not that).

Chapter 509: We learn that Tobi was the one who got Yahiko to create Atsuki and that he was the one who gave Nagato the rinnengan. "I am the one who induced yahiko to form akatuski i am the one who gave nagato the rinnegan, so i guess you could say i am here to take it back. (Hint 10: This is something that had me confused for a long time but not anymore. It wouldn't make sense if Tobi gave nagato rinnegan like how rin gave kakashi obito's eye. Another reason for this not being possible is well if you think about it Jiraiya was in a hut when nagato snapped thats when konan called jiriaya to help them. The way i see it by what tobi ment was that he used some type of stimulation or created some type of event to cause nagato to snap. If you go back and read that chapter (the flashback of nagato) you will see that some one attacked yahiko was going to kill him tobi was probably there using that stimulation to see if nagato would have the rinnengan.)

Chapter 597: 
Kakashi: Where did you get that eye
Tobi: Where you say, well it was during the past world war, the fight at the kannabi bridge, that fight where you got to be called the hero with the sharingan. 
Kakashi: You!
Tobi:I told you not to open your mouth so easily! You


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## Tharris (Aug 29, 2012)

XxSepher said:


> Part 1
> Chapter 487 pg 4: This is when Naruto, Kakashi and Sakura go and try to get Sasuke this is when Sasuke kills Danzo. Tobi says to Kakashi when kakashi is about to Kamui on tobi "Dont bother kakashi that wont work on me" (Hint 8: Tobi knows Kakashi if it was Madara I doubt he would know the younger generation's names)



Zetsu has been noted to record historic fights, including Sasuke vs Itachi, and then report them back to Tobi.

It wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that Zetsu was monitoring Kakashi since he had Obito's other eye, or even that he was keeping tabs on Sasuke as a child.


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 29, 2012)

IchLiebe said:


> Izuna- Would be anti-climactic.



Fixed.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Aug 29, 2012)

Izuna would make the most sense.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Aug 29, 2012)

Tobi is Rin. 


*Spoiler*: __


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## Rica_Patin (Aug 29, 2012)

What if Tobi is Aizen?


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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Aug 29, 2012)

Nensense said:


> What if Tobi is Aizen?



Better than Tobito.


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## NibiruEnkiAnu (Aug 29, 2012)

i have one big problem with tobi being obito


if tobi is obito, then that means obito fought the 4th and summoned kyuubi at the age of 15

even more shocking, is if tobi is obito and the above is true, then that means during the mission with kakashi some fodder ninja defeated obito, who is supposed to already have godlike powers?


makes no sense. if kishi makes tobi obito, then makes obito "become evil" or something like getting his bad taste of the world from almost dying in the kakashi mission, its a total retcon because obito couldnt be killed by some fodder ninja if he was that powerful


so that means obito dying would have had to been obitos plan all along, he would have faked his death and let kakashi take his eye and that would have been his plan all along.... only thing that makes sense in that situation is obito wanted to see if his friend would steal his eye if he thought he was dead


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## Powerful Lord (Aug 29, 2012)

Nobody knows his identity yet?


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## Yuki (Aug 29, 2012)

Powerful Lord said:


> Nobody knows his identity yet?



I do and it's really hard not to say it out loud but i don't want to get banned sorry.

If you really want to no it's in spanish, if you have a good translater go here.

Warning: This is no joke and there are no pictures, just all the writing in the chapter.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Tobi appears to be the leader of Akatsuki


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## Milkomeda (Aug 29, 2012)

Zeref said:


> I do and it's really hard not to say it out loud but i don't want to get banned sorry.
> 
> If you really want to no it's in spanish, if you have a good translater go here.
> 
> ...



Eye Carl BS

Those spoilers pretty much say Obito is dead but Kagami is Tobi and Kagami is also Obitos father.


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## Talis (Aug 29, 2012)

Zeref said:


> I do and it's really hard not to say it out loud but i don't want to get banned sorry.
> 
> If you really want to no it's in spanish, if you have a good translater go here.
> 
> ...


Fake as Tobi being Madara.


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## XxSepher (Aug 29, 2012)

*Tobi Is Not An Uchiha!*

It's impossible for him to be an uchiha. Let me explain, Danzo and Kakashi both have to cover their sharingan eye due to the fact that, that eye is constantly in sharingan mode. It's always active. When Sasuke was given Itachi's eyes, Sasuke eyes were normal they were not automatically activated to sharingan mode.  Tobi's sharingan mode, and rinnengan mode is always active. He can't turn it off. So my conclusion is he is not an uchiha just from these observations.

As I stated in my long ass 2 part post in this thread, i think the one behind it all is none other than Nawaki. No one has the right to hate the uchiha and konoha more than Nawaki. His hair is a match (other than the color), his age would work perfectly with the fact that he would have been old enough to attack konoha when naruto was born. Finally he no one knows if he did die due to the fact that his body was so disfigured from the explosion that it was hard to tell who he was. And that Orochimaru gave his necklace back to tsunade. Who says that Nawaki just decided to leave the battle field, he couldnt handle the wars that was going on. This was the second war between uchiha and the senju clan and the hidden rain against Hanzo. Lead by the second hokage. There is more to it than just what i'm saying. But Nawaki was considered very talented, and had the powers of the first hokage he wouldn't have been dumb enough to walk on a land mine and die. Furthermore his teacher was Orochimaru. During that time who knows how far gone Orochimaru was. The person who knows everything is Orochimaru. The person I think is behind the mask is Nawaki. It's time for a change in direction. It is not an uchiha but senju!


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## Chocoholic ♡ (Aug 29, 2012)

Uzuki Yuugao. Definitely her. I knew it from the moment Tobi stated (s)he stalked Kakashi while he was at Obito's grave. 



Coincidence? I think not.


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## whitecrowz (Aug 29, 2012)

Tobi has a history with the hidden village of Eddy and is linked to the first 9 tails Jinchuriiki.


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## SaiST (Aug 29, 2012)

Since the cat'll be out of the bag soon, I'll be closing this to avoid the risk of spoilers.


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