# Tobirama vs Ei



## Itachі (Dec 29, 2015)

*Location:* 

*Distance:* 20 metres

*Mindset:* IC

*Knowledge:* Full for Ei, None for Tobirama

*Restrictions:* Edo Tensei


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## shade0180 (Dec 29, 2015)

Which Ei is this?


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## Itachі (Dec 29, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Which Ei is this?



Rocky's fiance.


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## shade0180 (Dec 29, 2015)

Every raikage is named Ei with the exception of Darui.


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## Itachі (Dec 29, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Every raikage is named Ei with the exception of Darui.



Yeah, but most people assume that Ei/Ay is Yondaime. If people are talking about another Ei, it's normally specified.


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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2015)

Tobirama gives him the Minato treatment


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## Rocky (Dec 29, 2015)

gg

He eventually catches Tobirama off guard and punches his head into the next time zone. Tobirama doesn't use tagged Kunai, making it far easier to predict the warp points.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 30, 2015)

If we aren't wanking the hell out of Ay then we will come to the conclusion that the only way he wins is if he outlasts Tobirama, because he's never going to touch him, not a chance in hell when he couldn't blitz Minato, who doesn't "strike" faster than Tobirama nor does he react faster than Tobirama.

-Ay charges.
-Tobirama flicks a Kunai above his head.
-Tobirama teleports.
-Tobirama tries to stab him, fails and then marks him.
-They play cat and mouse until Tobirama is tired.

If Tobirama had a surefire way of penetrating Ay's armor he'd honestly low diff stomp him.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

Minato's Hiraishin is harder to predict, and he's got better reaction feats than Tobirama anyway, so being unable to hit Minato is irrelevant here.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato's Hiraishin is harder to predict,* and he's got better reaction feats than Tobirama anyway*, so being unable to hit Minato is irrelevant here.



-No, Minato's Hiraishin isn't harder to predict. They both use marked Kunais, the only difference is that Tobirama's Kunai are marked on the fly and not pre marked. Not relevant anyway since he doesn't need to spread as many markings as Minato did to react to and evade Ay.

-Maybe if we continue to ignore Tobirama's feats and write them off as outliers when in reality the term being used in this situation makes zero sense, yeah, Minato would have better reaction feats. But considering Tobirama can physically react to Juubito's Shunshin while Minato barely reacted to Ay's Shunshin, either you start to argue that Ay and Juubito are in the same league of speed, or you come to the conclusion that Tobirama>>Minato in reaction speed.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> They both use marked Kunais, the only difference is that Tobirama's Kunai are marked on the fly and not pre marked.



A few dozen pre-marked Kunai is a big deal. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> Not relevant anyway since he doesn't need to spread as many markings as Minato did to react to and evade Ay.



More markings make his landing spots less predictable, and he doesn't want to be predictable if he wants to have _any_ chance at dodging consistently. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> Tobirama can physically react to Juubito's Shunshin



Obito never used the Body Flicker Technique against Tobirama. He used the tsb-through-the-hand attack that he used on Hiruzen and later on Sasuke & Naruto.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Ei has full knowledge, I don't think he's going to be vulnerable to the same trick Minato tried to pull.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A few dozen pre-marked Kunai is a big deal.
> 
> 
> 
> More markings make his landing spots less predictable, and he doesn't want to be predictable if he wants to have _any_ chance at dodging consistently.



Or he could simply spread less markings and use more clones. Either way, Tobirama can react to Juubito. Ay would practically have to be in Tobirama's face if he wants to stand a chance of hitting him before he can toss a Kunai and teleport. Prediction against Minato was only an option because he almost hit Minato.




> *Obito never used the Body Flicker Technique against Tobirama. *He used the tsb-through-the-hand attack that he used on Hiruzen and later on Sasuke & Naruto.



Lol what? I knew you weren't going to agree but really now? 

1

-One moment Obito is there.

1

-Next moment Obito has crossed that distance and ripped half their bodies off, and to further make it obvious that he used shunshin we have Minato, in KCM no less, saying that Obito is fast.

He shunshin'd at them and attacked while doing so, not a new concept.



Itachі said:


> Ei has full knowledge, I don't think he's going to be vulnerable to the same trick Minato tried to pull.



Knowledge isn't why Minato was clowning Ay.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Or he could simply spread less markings and use more clones.



Clones would just slow him down. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> Prediction against Minato was only an option because he almost hit Minato.



Tobirama probably would have gotten hit in that situation. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> One moment Obito is there. Next moment Obito has crossed that distance and ripped half their bodies off



Yeah, he ran (or flew) over to them and did this attack, an attack that involves a truth-seeking ball going through Obito's hand. I thought it was Shunshin too until I saw the orbs through Obito's hands in that scan of him hitting the Senju brothers. Then I realized it was the same attack he was using on _everyone else in the manga._ 

Hiruzen was analysing it while it was happening to him. Naruto reacted to it by grabbing Minato and Sasuke with chakra arms, and Minato still had enough time to use Hiraishin after that. The attack is fast, but it isn't untraceable fast like the Body Flicker would be. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> and to further make it obvious that he used shunshin we have Minato, in KCM no less, saying that Obito is fast



That's because he _is_ fast. Sakura started running away from monster arms that Jesusruto called fast. I don't put too much stock into comments like those.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Clones would just slow him down.
> 
> 
> 
> Tobirama probably would have gotten hit in that situation.



No, making too many would slow him down. 5 or so wouldn't, and Tobirama would've dodged that far better than Minato ever could, your "Juubito didn't use Shunshin" counterargument is looking pretty hilarious.





> Yeah, he ran (or flew) over to them and did this attack, an attack that involves a truth-seeking ball going through Obito's hand. I thought it was Shunshin too until I saw the orbs through Obito's hands in that scan of him hitting the Senju brothers. Then I realized it was the same attack he was using on _everyone else in the manga._



.......... You cannot be serious.

1. He didn't fly. You can see the dust kicking from him sliding on the ground.
2. The Gudo Dama was shaped into 3 discs on each hand s*o he could rip their bodies in half as he dashed past them.
*

What you are implying doesn't even make a shred of sense. It's like you are convinently ignoring the fact that he dashed at them before using the attack, which is the whole point being made here. He shunshin'd and attacked them. Tobirama reacted, meaning his reaction feats blow Minato's out of the water.

They aren't even the same type of attack so I have no idea what you thought you were doing here. Against minato and hiruzen he simply extended the Gudo Dama. Against Tobirama he only used it as a melee weapon.



> Hiruzen was analysing it while it was happening to him. Naruto reacted to it by grabbing Minato and Sasuke with chakra arms, and Minato still had enough time to use Hiraishin after that. The attack is fast, but it isn't untraceable fast like the Body Flicker would be.



Lol what in the world? In both those situations Obito didn't use Shunshin, he flew at Hiruzen then stopped at the ground and extended the orb at him, then he *walked* towards him and finished him off. 

Obito was also still against Naruto so I have no idea what in the world you think you are talking about. Is Ay standing still and punching someone the same speed as Ay shunshin'ing top speed at the same person and punching them at the same time? No, it isn't.

To even compare these instances to what happened to Tobirama and Hashirama's clone is dishonest argumentation at it's worst.



> That's because he _is_ fast. Sakura started running away from monster arms that Jesusruto called fast. I don't put too much stock into comments like those.



Yes, after it attacked her from how many dozen meters away? Lol


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Yeah, Tobirama's not likely to use Kage Bunshin after witnessing Ei's speed.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 30, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Yeah, Tobirama's not likely to use Kage Bunshin after witnessing Ei's speed.



Using Hiraishin with clones is slower than usual, and too slow for Obito, who is leagues above Ay in speed. Says nothing about Tobirama himself being slowed down from using clones. The clones themselves getting hit is irrelevant when they won't need to dodge, only the original will need to dodge.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 30, 2015)

Seeing as DB4 says that he can use all five elements, he defeats him with hiraishin plus fuuton attack


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## Trojan (Dec 30, 2015)

A wins.

Since he was very close to Minato's face, he will behead Tobirama. Since his shunshin and his FTG are inferior. In addition, by hype A/B are superior to Kin/Gin. So, if Tobirama can't deal with inferior (and much slower, mind you) opponents. He simply can't do it here.

Using same jutsu = same result is pretty idiotic and I am surprised some people still say that nonsense. Had it been so, B would have torn itachi into pieces the same way he did to Sasuke since both have pretty much the same abilities/MS.

That's regarding hype at least. Regarding feats, Tobirama has nothing to hurt A either. And since A has more chakra than Tobirama, outlasting him is not an option.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> What you are implying doesn't even make a shred of sense.



Then maybe you should think it about it for more than five seconds. 



There are no Gudōdama in the panel of Obito right before the attack. That means he made them _and_ completed the process of shaping them into a weapon _during_ the attack but _before_ he struck Tobirama.

That process was drawn out for us too. The orb compacts, then it enlarges while a small hole forms in Obito's hand, then it extends through the hole and shapes into a weapon. [1]

Both Naruto and Minato were able to react to Obito _before he could shape the ball,_ which makes it a better feat that what Tobirama accomplished, _because Obito hit Tobirama with a shaped ball._

There was no Body Flicker involved, and because you can't prove there was one, you're probably not going to change my mind. You just want it to be Shunshin so you can continue to exaggerate that feat. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> No, making too many would slow him down. 5 or so wouldn't



Making one would slow him down, so making five is going to slow him way down. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> Yes, after it attacked her from how many dozen meters away? Lol



She started jumping away from it when it was pretty close. [2]


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 30, 2015)

Well, this thread looks entertaining.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 30, 2015)

Tobirama fought a fully mastered MS user and won , Ei fought a MS user in training and fought to a standstill and could've been killed there is a difference between their abilities


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

After the shunshin, KCM Naruto's comments were as follows:

"Eh?" [1]

"What?" [1] (with KCM Minato, EMS Sasuke & KCM Naruto all with dafuck faces)

Minato's comment was...

"Fast..."

A shitfaced dumbfounded KCM Naruto (who's faster than Ei) asking multiple questions to himself about what just happened, a shit faced Sasuke, and a speed acknowledgement from KCM Minato (who's hella faster than Ei) is validation that Jubito was at the very least their equal, making him faster than Ei. 

Jubito was flip kicking KCM Minato without a reaction from him, and put his hands on the face of KCM Naruto/EMS Sasuke without a reaction. A direct blitzing attempt from the same guy reacted to by Tobirama is enough to grant him the speed to perceive and react to Ei with relative ease here.

Even if we exclude that feat, Tobirama reacted to Sage Mode Living Madara from 0m, and Madara directly stated Tobirama was the fastest of their era. Madara as a weakened zombie reacted to V2 Ei without EMS activated, it's fairly obvious Living Tobirama, who was faster than living EMS Madara, would react to Ei. 

Eventually, however, Ei tags him by virtue of luck, considering Tobirama can do nothing to slow him down or kill him.


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## Rai (Dec 30, 2015)

Madara still have EMS tracking abilities when using Rinnegan.


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## Veracity (Dec 30, 2015)

Base Minato having better reaction feats than Tobirama.... Haha that's cute. When minato can place his hands on juubito 6 times then we can talk. KCM minato was getting his shit kicked in by Juubitos regular arm speed let alone a damn flicker...

OT: Tobirama may lose but only via Ay having full knowledge. However, if he manages to tag a KB, then its over for Ay. The raikage rushes a bunshin, and gets the juubito treatment. From there on, its tobiramas job to figure out how many chakra enhanced kunai strikes it takes to Ays Temple/Neck/Face to kill him.


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## raizen28 (Dec 30, 2015)

Futon disperses Ai Raiton Cloak, Tobirama blitzes


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## hbcaptain (Dec 30, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Base Minato having better reaction feats than Tobirama.... Haha that's cute. When minato can place his hands on juubito 6 times then we can talk. KCM minato was getting his shit kicked in by Juubitos regular arm speed let alone a damn flicker...
> 
> OT: Tobirama may lose but only via Ay having full knowledge. However, if he manages to tag a KB, then its over for Ay. The raikage rushes a bunshin, and gets the juubito treatment. From there on, its tobiramas job to figure out how many chakra enhanced kunai strikes it takes to Ays Temple/Neck/Face to kill him.


It's always laughable how people confuse Juubito's speed and GudoDama's changing shape speed .
Plus Tobirama admitted himself that Juubito will instantly kill him in CQC even if he is marked .


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## Icegaze (Dec 30, 2015)

Boring thread requiring too many assumptions 

Tobirama has no way to harm A based on what he has shown . Unless we give him jutsu based on the elements DB implies he has 

I say give him 

Danzo futon 
Asuma Katon 
Basic doton
The suiton he showed
Raiton used by ambu, as well as C raiton based genjutsu 

With these things Tovirama can win


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> KCM minato was getting his shit kicked in by Juubitos regular arm speed let alone a damn flicker.



KCM Minato reacted to Obito point-blank and only lost an arm. Obito ran over to Tobirama from like 10-20m away and still ripped him in half. 



Likes boss said:


> From there on, its tobiramas job to figure out how many chakra enhanced kunai strikes it takes to Ays Temple/Neck/Face to kill him.



Infinity. They'll keep bouncing off the armor until Tobirama shows a melee attack above Chidorigatana.


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## Trojan (Dec 30, 2015)

Why do people always take Tobirama's "reaction" to retard-Obito (and idiotically assume that he is as good as himself with full control) and disregard Minato's reaction to 8th Gate, 5th step Guy?


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Then maybe you should think it about it for more than five seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm just going to say this again since you are pretty much repeating the same nonsense reach of an argument. 

Stop comparing the speed of Obito at top speed to the speed of Obito's Gudo Dama extending with no added movement from him. "lol but tobirama was hit with gudo stick before naruto" is irrelevant when they were two different types of attacks. Obito dashed at Tobirama, made his weapon and took half his body off. The momentum behind that attack comes from the speed Obito was moving at, thus he'd be attacking at the same or general speed he was moving at. Obito is stationary against Minato, Naruto and Sasuke, thus the only speed they need to deal with is the extension of his Gudo Dama. "lol but tobirama was hit with gudo stick before naruto" is irrelevant. 

Your whole "Tobirama couldn't react before the ball was shaped while Naruto and Minato can" is irrelevant when Tobirama had to react to Obito dashing at him at top speed with weapon in hand. Not even sure how your comparison makes sense when Obito formed his weapon and then hit Tobirama. Not even the same situation.

Then we have the fact that Tobirama did react, by tagging Obito's back. So we can cut the BS now.



> There was no Body Flicker involved, and because you can't prove there was one, you're probably not going to change my mind. You just want it to be Shunshin so you can continue to exaggerate that feat.



No, I won't change my mind because this is probably the most desperate reach of an argument I've ever seen you make when it comes to this topic, but considering it's the only way you can continue to deny the feats and glorify Minato, and by extension Ay, I can't really be surprised at the nonsense I'm reading. I mean, really? To actually claim that what we clearly see on panel didn't happen? New low buddy. 

-Obito is 5-10m away one moment.
-Next moment he's ripping the Hokage in half.
-Naruto's reaction is "eh" and "what"
-The dirt kicking up shows that Obito was moving at high speed.

This situation is the same as literally every single Shunshin ever used in this Manga. The first two are characteristics of Shunshin and nothing more. "Lol, but there was no Shunshin" isn't an argument let alone an argument that get anyone who isn't biased beyond belief to change their mind.



> Making one would slow him down, so making five is going to slow him way down.



Based on nothing. I literally just explained what "using Hiraishin with clones" means.




> [She started jumping away from it when it was pretty close. [2]



Minato only reacted to Ay when Ay was right in his face, doesn't mean that the moment she moved is the moment she attempted to do something about it. Put Ay farther away from Sakura than he was from Minato and she'd still get hit with no reaction or she'd react the same way Minato did, but to an Ay 3x the distance from her. Same principle here.



> KCM Minato reacted to Obito point-blank and only lost an arm. Obito ran over to Tobirama from like 10-20m away and still ripped him in half.



Smh reminds me how delusional Minato fans are. Hey guys! Obito taking Minato's arm off and leaving a Gudo Dama in it's place before Minato can mentally react is somehow a feat. lmao Doesn't help that you are comparing Obito's strike to Obito's Shunshin.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 30, 2015)

Madara reacted to v2 multiple times before he stole Hashirama's sage mode. He also said that Tobirama was faster than him during their lifetime. That settles the debate of whether Tobirama can react to him.

As for how he defeats Ei, we have to give him a fuuton since the databook says he can use them


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## Veracity (Dec 30, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> It's always laughable how people confuse Juubito's speed and GudoDama's changing shape speed .
> Plus Tobirama admitted himself that Juubito will instantly kill him in CQC even if he is marked .


And what am I confusing here ? It was clearly a flicker. It was implied to be a flicker and was drawn to be a flicker as he legit appeared in a different place. KCM naruto, EMS sasuke, and KCM minato all couldn't track his speed and all exclaimed it was super fast - which immediately puts his speed at the very least a whole tier above V2 Ay. 

Yes, controlled juubito with all the shit ton of perks he has would eventually catch tobirama and destroy him. That's a big difference from Ay, if that's what you were trying to imply.

@rocky

I've seen your explanation on why you think he didn't flicker there but it's completely illogical given the manga illustration + everyone's inability to react + the fact that literally everyone was in awe. He most likely shaped the orbs then used his flicker, or the speed at which he shapes his orbs changes... Which is common in this manga specifically. 

Tobirama most likely let himself get hit ( catching his opponent off guard via canon trait) seeing as he didn't merely get off a glancing blow, but literally 5 of them- Which is absurd in a manga like this. Also note how nobody ( even KCM minato) even realized that tobirama had even moved until after he started giving out commands.

Either way you make it , tobirama being able to tag juubito 5 times is still impressive as KCM MINATO(remind me of the difference between base naruto and KCM naruto again in reactions?) was struggling to lay even a touch on juubuto after -and given tobiramas previous feat, he would have at least been able to mark juubito a single time if his arm got sliced apart like Minatos.☻ 

Or should I just end this whole thing, and post a feat of tobirama reacting to Juubitos orb faster than KCM minato could, as that easily sums up tobirama> Base minato in reactions + speed.

Naww. The Lighting enhanced blade was aimed at Ays back/shoulder. I can hit you with rocks all day in the back without wounding you severely, but hit you once in the temple and kill you instantly. So no. It won't take one kunai blow, but eventually Ay is being killed.


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## Icegaze (Dec 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Why do people always take Tobirama's "reaction" to retard-Obito (and idiotically assume that he is as good as himself with full control) and disregard Minato's reaction to 8th Gate, 5th step Guy?



Because minato reaction was just that a reaction 
No physical movement involved


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Stop comparing the speed of Obito at top speed to the speed of Obito's Gudo Dama extending with no added movement from him.



You still aren't getting it.

Running over to Tobirama, making a tsb on the way, shaping it into a disc, and swinging it into Tobirama is _*slower*_ than just shaping a tsb into a spear with the target already in your hand.


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## Kai (Dec 30, 2015)

Tobirama replicates Minato's performance against A; the difference between Minato and Tobirama's space-time skills shouldn't be clear simply based on Minato's performance against A. Tobirama can do the exact same steps with Hiraishin.

Hurting A is still another matter. I'm not sure how Tobirama can bring A to a lethal point in the fight without Gojo Kibaku Fuda. It's a game of cat and mouse until one is outlasted and A should win in an attrition contest.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You still aren't getting it.
> 
> Running over to Tobirama, making a tsb on the way, shaping it into a disc, and swinging it into Tobirama is _*slower*_ than just shaping a tsb into a spear with the target already in your hand.



Then you'd simply have to show that he made it after he Shunshin'd at Tobirama, and considering Obito's Shunshin is factually faster than the manipulation of his Gudo Dama, he wouldn't be able to Shunshin and then form his Gudo Dama into discs on the way to Tobirama.

Thus he did it before he attacked. All you see is Obito standing still one moment, and then he's attacked the next. You don't see him right when he decides to attack nor do you see anything in between that and the end of the attack. So you still don't have a point. Base Minato's reaction is not on par with Tobirama's. Not when even KCM Minato's feats are inferior.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I've seen your explanation on why you think he didn't flicker there but it's completely illogical given the manga illustration + everyone's inability to react + the fact that literally everyone was in awe.



Nonsense. I'll write out everyone's reaction:


*Naruto:* "What the!?"
*Sasuke:* No comment.
*Minato:* *So Swift!*
*Tobirama:* "Saru! Fourth! Scram!!"
*Hiruzen:* "Roger!" *Lord Second's already launched his attack plan!*

Nobody was "in awe", and even _old Hiruzen_ had seen what Tobirama had done.



Likes boss said:


> He most likely shaped the orbs then used his flicker.



What if he shaped the orbs on the way there, like he did a few pages later against Hiruzen? 



Likes boss said:


> or the speed at which he shapes his orbs changes... Which is common in this manga specifically.



Ah, so now he used super fast orb-shaping powers on Tobirama, and slower orb-shaping powers on everyone else. Yeah...not buying that _for a second._ 



Likes boss said:


> Also note how nobody ( even KCM minato) even realized that tobirama had even moved until after he started giving out commands.



Except for Old Hiruzen. 



Likes boss said:


> he would have at least been able to mark juubito a single time if his arm got sliced apart like Minatos.



You realize that Obito powered up, right? 



Likes boss said:


> Or should I just end this whole thing, and post a feat of tobirama reacting to Juubitos orb faster than KCM minato could



Actually, Minato reacted first by reaching for it. Then Tobirama teleported to it, so he's going to beat Minato there. Minato is quick, but the instantaneous Hiraishin is quicker.



Likes boss said:


> Naww. The Lighting enhanced blade was aimed at Ays back/shoulder. I can hit you with rocks all day in the back without wounding you severely, but hit you once in the temple and kill you instantly. So no. It won't take one kunai blow, but eventually Ay is being killed.



If I have a layer of armor on, it doesn't matter where you hit me. Those rocks will bounce off. And by the way, rock ≠ lighting-enhanced sword.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> considering Obito's Shunshin is actually faster than the manipulation of his Gudo Dama, he wouldn't be able to Shunshin and then form his Gudo Dama into discs on the way to Tobirama.



So maybe he didn't use Shunshin to get to Tobirama. Concept!


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> So maybe he didn't use Shunshin to get to Tobirama. Concept!



Except we can clearly see that he did. You can do us both a favor and stop dismissing evidence in favor of a conclusion that makes Minato and Ay look better than they really are. 




> -Obito is 5-10m away one moment.
> -Next moment he's ripping the Hokage in half.
> -Naruto's reaction is "eh" and "what"
> -The dirt kicking up shows that Obito was moving at high speed.
> ...



-You have no evidence the Gudo Dama were formed as he moved.
-You have no evidence that he didn't use Shunshin.

You don't even have an argument. Just assertions that you can't actually support.  Cut the BS.


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## Icegaze (Dec 30, 2015)

I don't get this wholed obito used or didn't use shunshin when he split Tobirama in half 

Regardless of what he used . He is and was faster than A at top speed 

Considering his performance , the gap in their level is too clear for A speed to be superior


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I don't get this wholed obito used or didn't use shunshin when he split Tobirama in half
> 
> Regardless of what he used . He is and was faster than A at top speed
> 
> Considering his performance , the gap in their level is too clear for A speed to be superior



And then we have this, but expect something like "Nah, Ay is faster" as a response.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Except we can clearly see that he did.



Flash-Step illustration isn't always Shunshin, and since he attacked them with the truth-seekers as opposed to just his fists, he probably wasn't moving at top speeds.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> *Flash-Step illustration* isn't always Shunshin, and since he attacked them with the truth-seekers as opposed to just his fists, he probably wasn't moving at top speeds.



Not sure exactly what you are talking about here, but this is no sort of rebuttal.

-In one spot one second.
-In another spot over 5 meters away the next second.
-No one properly saw him attack, hence the surprise everyone showed after the fact. At least Naruto, who is the second fastest person observing the blitz right behind Minato.

That's Shunshin. Not running. I can post a scan of top tiers running at top speed, and it is nowhere near as explosive, fast or sudden as Shunshin. If he was running then he'd be shown running unless you want to argue that he runs so fast his regular speed is as sudden as a Shunshin. (even though thats not even the case for RSM Naruto when he runs. [X] [X])

Even if that's what you want to argue, he'd still be faster than Ay thus faster than the shape manipulation of the Gudo Dama thus your point still fails.


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## Bonly (Dec 30, 2015)

Only things Tobi has that might hurt A is Suiton Suidanha so depending on how much damage it does Tobi might have a shot at being A and he might have a strong enough Futon to do something but who knows though without ET I'd favor A more times then not, well unless Tobi wants to blow himself up using Gojō Kibaku Fuda that is


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Only things Tobi has that might hurt A is Suiton Suidanha so depending on how much damage it does Tobi might have a shot at being A and he might have a strong enough Futon to do something but who knows though without ET I'd favor A more times then not, well unless Tobi wants to blow himself up using Gojō Kibaku Fuda that is



I very much doubt that Suidanha is hurting Ei, Chidori is much more concentrated than Suidanha.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Not sure exactly what you are talking about here



Flash-Step illustration. []

It isn't always Shunshun. [2]



KeyofMiracles said:


> No one properly saw him attack, hence the surprise everyone showed after the fact. At least Naruto, who is the second fastest person observing the blitz right behind Minato.



_What surprise?_ The only person exclaiming is Naruto, but even _Hiruzen_ saw what was going on. Is there a "!!?" over Hiruzen's head? How about Sasuke's? Hashirama's? Minato's? No, only Naruto.

If Obito was moving at body flicker speeds, then how the _fuck_ did everybody see it? MS Sasuke could barely see Raikage's best Shunshin. Moreover, why didn't Obito ever use Shunshin again? You think that one time was the _only_ time where he was moving at his top speeds?

Also, answer this for me: Do you think Madara was stupid for not attacking Obito & Kakashi with Shunshin here instead of the tsbs? They were standing right next to each other, so he could have meleed them both at the same time. I'm curious to see what you think about that.


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## Veracity (Dec 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nonsense. I'll write out everyone's reaction:
> 
> 
> *Naruto:* "What the!?"
> ...


Lol are those all not awe comments ? All those comments were about how fast Juubito had moved, and considering how nobody could react to said movement ( KCM Minato would be tiers faster than V2 ay) its safe to say juubito is faster than Ay. And no hiruzen didn't notice anything. He was able to realize that the second had something up his sleeve after he told them all to leave . like how far are you reaching rn?

☻Because against hiruzen he didn't flicker. He used a flicker against the 1st and second evident by:
- The smoke left around juubito
- Everyone's inability to react
- the manga illustration
-hype

Techniques in the manga aren't 100℅ used at the same speed in this manga. He happened to use flicker that time anyway, so either he formed the orbs before or did faster than usual. You gotta pick one.☻ 

Obito didn't actually get faster, he was just able to control his abilities and become a tactical fighter. You also have to consider the gap between base minato and tobirama.


You know what also kills your argument? Even if it was movement speed, tagging a god tier 4 to 1 in CQC is way more impressive than anything base minato can do... Unless you are getting sixty four palmed, nobody in the entire manga has been dominated that quickly in CQC. Looking even further, if you assume that tobirama did indeed get blitzed( I think he let himself get hit) then you also have to agree that with one arm( his arm got taken away) he was able to reach into his body, pull out 3 different tags, and then tag obito 4 times , the last time with An FTG seal. Now let's look into where he places the tags: on the way there
His arm, chest, leg and the middle of his back - all very different places with one arm. If that had been done to V1 Ay, it would still be very impressive, yet you downplay it being done against a god tier...

Yeah of course minato reacted to the orb first as tobirama wasn't even in the area. And I guess we should call him Godirama based on his ability to teleport to any location without the need of an FTG mark. Nothing in the manga even suggests that there was an FTG mark in that area. And even if there was, tobirama still has to teleport to the area then move his arm - he doesn't just teleport his arm into the orb lol. We both know how FTG works. That was tobirama's clone anyway, which is canonically slower than the original. So basically tobirama is indeed faster than Base minato based on that feat, and your entire argument looses merit.

Based on the damage chidori does ( dug about 2 inches into Ay) tobirama is eventually going to equal that damage with a chakra flowed kunai. Whether it takes 5 blows or 20. Chidori isn't some omnipotent attack BTW. And Ay doesn't equal the average human..


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

> What surprise? The only person exclaiming is Naruto, but even Hiruzen saw what was going on. Is there a "!!?" over Hiruzen's head? How about Sasuke's? Hashirama's? Minato's? No, only Naruto.


KCM Naruto is enough, he's faster than Ei.

Sasuke and KCM Naruto were shit faced, the facial expressions are as valid as any character adjective expressing thoughts/emotions. 

KCM Minato acknowledged his speed as "fast..." after the blitzing. 

Not Base Minato, KCM Minato, who is in another realm of speed compared to Ei. If I remember correctly, that was the only time Minato ever called anyone fast in the manga after perceiving their speed, especially after looking over in awe and surprise.

This isn't really relevant anyway, Madara confirmed Tobirama as faster than himself in life, so he'd have no issue reacting to Ei.

On a side note, Jubito didn't perceive Tobirama marking him with several explosive tags or an FTG mark. Neither did KCM Naruto, who asked "What's happening?" after Minato teleported them away and a massive explosion ensued, or Minato, who had a surprised expression with a "!" when Tobirama told him to get away [1], because he hadn't realized Tobirama tagged him despite watching on from only 15m away with a sky cam view.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Flash-Step illustration. []
> 
> It isn't always Shunshun. [2]



Too bad that's not the only reason or the main reason why it was Shunshin.





> _What surprise?_ The only person exclaiming is Naruto, but even _Hiruzen_ saw what was going on. Is there a "!!?" over Hiruzen's head? How about Sasuke's? Hashirama's? Minato's? No, only Naruto.
> 
> If Obito was moving at body flicker speeds, then how the _fuck_ did everybody see it? MS Sasuke could barely see Raikage's best Shunshin. Moreover, why didn't Obito ever use Shunshin again? You think that one time was the _only_ time where he was moving at his top speeds?


You are still reaching. Show me where anybody actually saw his Shunshin. The point you are attempting to make doesn't even make sense.

2

Hiruzen knew that Tobirama was going to attack because Tobirama literally told him and Minato to get the fuck away. Then there's the fact that the explosive tags he put on Obito aren't exactly invisible nor did he need to see anything Tobirama did during the blitz in order to see the explosive tags after the blitz and realize that Tobirama is about to attack. The rest of those people not showing surprise is irrelevant as no one there is faster than Naruto. If he doesn't see Obito's Shunshin then you aren't making an argument that anyone else did. Not a chance in hell. Not like them not showing surprise proves that they saw his every move anyway. The looks on their faces say enough regardless.

And whether or not Obito used Shunshin or his top speed again isn't relevant nor does it disprove my point or support yours. That was the only time in the battle Obito actually fought mobile on the ground so your point doesn't make sense anyway. 

-Fought on the ground while mindless. Blitzed Tobirama and blitzed KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke.
-Bloated up.
-Gained control.
-Fought them while stationary until they managed to land Enton Rasen Shuriken on him, then he took to the skies.

Never fought them in close combat again let alone on the ground.





> Also, answer this for me: Do you think Madara was stupid for not attacking Obito & Kakashi with Shunshin here instead of the tsbs? They were standing right next to each other, so he could have meleed them both at the same time. I'm curious to see what you think about that.



Yes. Juubito blitzed Tobirama, KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Obito and Kakashi are not faster than them. If Madara had attacked with Shunshin then he would've cleaved Kakashi in half while Obito would simply escape due to intangibility. 

Those Gudo Dama do not and will not ever travel as fast as any Juubi Jin moves at top speed considering 5G Gai could intercept, grab Kakashi and move him out of the way before one hit him. Then we have Kakashi and Obito themselves being able to react while two faster people got blitzed by a slower Jinchuuriki. Not sure what you are trying to pull here considering many characters could've done many things in the Manga that would've yielded better results than what they actually did.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 30, 2015)

not sure about the debate going on above, but a juubi jin isnt faster than V2 Ei. 

kaguya couldnt avoid amaterasu while the raikage can.

minato got hit by obito because he was initially focused on attacking him, not teleporting. whats the evidence for this?

when minato is purely focused on teleporting and not attacking, he mentally reacts to 8th gate gais 5th step evening elephant from this distance


not once, but *twice*.

minato level speed and reactions is the minimum that was shown to be able to mentally react_(not physically react)_ to 8th gate gai level speed.


tobirama has better reflexes than minato though since he performed better than minato in identical situations_(tagging obito)_.

tobirama would perform better against Ei than minato. minato and Ei fought countless times without being able to kill each other, so im not sure where the attrition argument for Ei is coming from. 
tobirama has the raw power unlike minato to turn Ei to ash with his exploding tag barrage.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

@KeyofMiracles

Since I'm wasting my time going back & forth, we'll agree to disagree. Tobirama's going to lose regardless because he can't even get through A's armor, let alone hurt A himself after that. So eventually, Raikage catches Tobirama off guard and kills him, or he wears him down and then kills him when he's low on stamina.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 30, 2015)

Artistic illustration clearly indicates that Juubito used Shunshin. I'm not even sure how that's even debatable, but as Viz already had proven, Juubito was faster than Raikage in that scenario regardless.

 We have three beings whose perceptual capabilities should allow them to perceive Raikage's movements yet they didn't even notice a thing until after Juubito sliced both the Kage in half. Claiming that Juubito was using TSB shouldn't take away from that at all.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Both Naruto and Minato were able to react to Obito before he could shape the ball, which makes it a better feat that what Tobirama accomplished, because Obito hit Tobirama with a shaped ball.



 No it wasn't. He didn't simply use his TSB to target his opponent, he merely shaped it into a blade and using his own physical speed and reflexes to slice his opponent. Entirely incomparable, but even then, both scenarios involved Juubito moving much faster than both EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto could perceive.

 Actually, you could argue that Juubito's speed against Tobirama was higher taking into consideration that KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke noticed Juubito approaching them both whereas KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke couldn't detect a thing until after Juubito sliced Tobirama in half. Even KCM Minato wasn't shown to have commented on Juubito's actual speed until after he sliced Tobirama in half which implies that even he couldn't perceive Juubito's Shunshin. Why? Because if he was able to, he would've considering Suigetsu and Deidara did when Raikage and Sasuke Flickered towards their respective targets.

 Juubito is much faster than Raikage. I'm not even sure how this shit is debatable.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

UchihaX28 said:


> Artistic illustration clearly indicates that Juubito used Shunshin.



That isn't an argument. Your opinion on the art isn't indicative of anything. 

I'm not even sure how that's even debatable, but as Viz already had proven, Juubito was faster than Raikage in that scenario regardless.



UchihaX28 said:


> We have three beings whose perceptual capabilities should allow them to perceive Raikage's movements yet they didn't even notice a thing until after Juubito sliced both the Kage in half.



..Naruto noticed that Obito had moved _before_ he obliterated the Senju brothers.



UchihaX28 said:


> He didn't simply use his TSB to target his opponent, he merely shaped it into a blade and using his own physical speed and reflexes to slice his opponent.



He chopped through them like he did Hiruzen's Shuriken, but he's still limited by the time it takes to shape the weapons.



UchihaX28 said:


> Even KCM Minato wasn't shown to have commented on Juubito's actual speed until after he sliced Tobirama in half which implies that even he couldn't perceive Juubito's Shunshin. Why? Because if he was able to, he would've considering Suigetsu and Deidara did when Raikage and Sasuke Flickered towards their respective targets.



That doesn't make any sense.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

It wasn't before, Kishimoto simply chose to draw Naruto's expression prior to showing what happened down below.

Then he chose to draw Naruto's expression a second time, with a second question from dumbfounded KCM Naruto.

Ei's fastest punch received no such expression or in awe questions from Naruto, he simply dodged it and finished his statement. 

The expressions on Sasuke and Naruto's face, and KCM Minato's personal acknowledgement is proof enough to me that Ei has zero on Jubito or that blitz.

Doesn't really matter anyway, Jubito stretched his body fast enough to put his hand on KCM Naruto's face without a reaction and fast enough to kick KCM Minato & his clone without a reaction. 

I'd image his on-ground running speed would be superior to his stretching speed, though it was fairy obvious that was a shunshin anyway.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> It wasn't before, Kishimoto simply chose to draw Naruto's expression prior to showing what happened down below.



Prove it.


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## Itachі (Dec 30, 2015)

Is anyone even contesting that Jubito is faster than Ei?


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Prove it.


I don't have to. 

KCM Naruto is faster than Ei.

If he perceived Jubito prior to him striking Tobirama from 5m, kudos to him.

Perceiving and doing something about it after you've perceived are two different things.

KCM Naruto's ability to perceive and do something about it after he's perceived has nothing to do with Ei's Lightning Chakra Mode Flicker going at Tobirama. 

So I'm not sure why you brought it up to begin with.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

Naruto's Body Flicker is faster than A's, but his reflexes are considerably worse. I don't know how we got on this though.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

He didn't reflex, he perceived, according to you, who's only argument is panel placement.

Naruto's mini caption has nothing to do with reflexes, reactions, or anything pertaining to physical movement.

Alright, so, let's get back to reality.

Scratch the feat, Madara stated Tobirama was faster than him in life, so Tobirama is capable of reacting to Ei. 

Topic over.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> I don't have to.
> 
> KCM Naruto is faster than Ei.
> 
> ...


kcm naruto being faster than Ei is irrelevant. naruto canonically has the faster shunshin, but his reflexes are not the same as Eis, which is why naruto cant react to amaterasu


yet Ei can.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

KCM Naruto reacted to Jubito before KCM Minato could. 

[1] [2] [3]

So yeah, clearly faster than Ei in reactions and shunshin speed.

Also, Ei didn't reflex to Amaterasu, he flickered, so yeah he still has shittier speed all around compared to KCM Naruto.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> KCM Naruto reacted to Jubito before KCM Minato could.


never happened. 




> So yeah, clearly faster than Ei in every category.



naruto cant react to amaterasu


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

He showed faster reactions than KCM Minato.

[1] [2] [3]

Base Minato has better reactions than Ei.


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## Saru (Dec 30, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> kcm naruto being faster than Ei is irrelevant. naruto canonically has the faster shunshin, but his reflexes are not the same as Eis, which is why naruto cant react to amaterasu
> 
> 
> yet Ei can.



Not sure what that has to do with this battle, but A used Shunshin no Jutsu after seeing Sasuke's eyes activate the Mangekyou.

***​
Tobirama wins, high difficulty. He can't take down A, but I doubt that A would be able to strike him, and I would rate Tobirama stamina higher than A's based on Tobirama's Senju heritage. Tobirama outlasts A.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He reacted to Jubito who would dodge Amaterasu, then still have the speed to run back into it's trajectory to be hit by it if he wanted.


which is why obito had to take a preemptive measure to block amaterasu_(spinning his staff in front of him before it was cast)_ instead of avoiding it, right?


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

No, he literally can move meters before manipulating his Gudodama into a shield.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, he literally can move meters before manipulating his Gudodama into a shield.



he didnt manipulate anything. he simply spun his staff.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

Imperceptibility is tricky to gauge. Off the top of my head, I can think of two different types.

There's the leave-your-vision type, where the ninja disappears from a character's eyesight and then reappears elsewhere. [1][2][3]

Then there's the flash-step, where the ninja finishes moving before a character realizes that they've started. [3][4][5]

I think super speed is poorly handled in the story, which is why it's hard to tell who's faster than who and who can see what move at which speed. I don't think Obito (or A) are imperceptible to Tobirama, but I don't think Obito is imperceptible to Minato either.



Saru said:


> I would rate Tobirama stamina higher than A's based on Tobirama's Senju heritage. Tobirama outlasts A.



"Senju" doesn't automatically make one comparable to a tailed beast. Tobirama isn't dreaming of outlasting Raikage.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 30, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> he didnt manipulate anything. he simply spun his staff.


I looked back, you're right.

Of course, this doesn't prove he couldn't have dodged it.

Let's get back on topic here. I have no futher interest in debating KCM Naruto's reflexes to Ei's, because it matters not here. 

CAN Tobirama react to V2 Ei initially without knowledge? That's the question.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> I looked back, you're right.
> 
> Of course, this doesn't prove he couldn't have dodged it.
> 
> ...



tobirama having knowledge or not has no effect on his ability to perceive Eis movement speed.
he would probably be surprised at Eis speed, but there isnt any reason that he wouldnt be able to react with hiraishin.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

Reading back through these war chapters is eye-opening. Jūbi Jin durability is _so_ fucked. How does one go from no-selling Gojō Kibaku Fuda to getting raped by Rasengan?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Reading back through these war chapters is eye-opening. Jūbi Jin durability is _so_ fucked. How does one go from no-selling Gojō Kibaku Fuda to getting raped by Rasengan?


obito blocked the explosion with a truthseeker shield.


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## Rocky (Dec 30, 2015)

We see that Obito didn't bother putting a shield up when the smoke begins to clear. That makes sense, considering that _Hashirama was holding him down._ ck


You also have Hiruzen saying "he's solid as well as swift", which sounds like durability hype for Obito to me.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 30, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> which is why obito had to take a preemptive measure to block amaterasu_(spinning his staff in front of him before it was cast)_ instead of avoiding it, right?



 I'm unsure why you also used the argument behind Kaguya getting hit by Amaterasu as a means to imply that Kaguya's actually slower than V2 Raikage.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 30, 2015)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm unsure why you also used the argument behind Kaguya getting hit by Amaterasu as a means to imply that Kaguya's actually slower than V2 Raikage.



because she is slower? obito isnt faster than kaguya, so kaguya being slower than Ei would prove that obito is slower as well.


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## Bonly Jr. (Dec 30, 2015)

Tobirama loses, only due to a lack of a finishing maneuverer.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That isn't an argument. Your opinion on the art isn't indicative of anything.



 Nor is your perception of the Flash-Step going to convince anyone that it isn't.




> ..Naruto noticed that Obito had moved _before_ he obliterated the Senju brothers.



 Really? Would Naruto being dumbfounded really indicate that he perceived Obito's movement? Makes me wonder why he stood there completely clueless as opposed to warning the Kage in advance. 

 The fact that KCM Naruto stated, "What?" after Obito flat-out "blitzed" the Kages suggests that KCM Naruto needed time to register what had happened because Juubito was simply too fast.



> He chopped through them like he did Hiruzen's Shuriken, but he's still limited by the time it takes to shape the weapons.



Then that leads to the assumption that Obito manipulated it before dashing at Tobirama considering KCM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, and KCM Minato couldn't perceive what was happening.



> That doesn't make any sense.



 And please tell me why it doesn't instead of replying with a baseless response.


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## Skaddix (Dec 30, 2015)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Tobirama loses, only due to a lack of a finishing maneuverer.



Pretty much this not seeing what Tobi has that is doing any real damage.


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## Ghoztly (Dec 30, 2015)

Given his primary offensive jutsu utilizes physical attacks like his slash and also suiton which logically doesn't do much to lightning, I can't see him damaging the Raikage enough to put him down.

Funny because I still think he's overall the stronger ninja.

Just a matchup thing.


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## Rocky (Dec 31, 2015)

UchihaX28 said:


> Would Naruto being dumbfounded really indicate that he perceived Obito's movement?



It depends on _why_ he's "dumbfounded." Maybe he's going "what the?!" because Obito just raped two Hokage effortlessly. It doesn't _have_ to be because Naruto couldn't see Obito move. Trying to claim that it does is like three different logical fallacies. 



UchihaX28 said:


> Then that leads to the assumption that Obito manipulated it before dashing at Tobirama



Ah, so your interpretation is that Obito creates the orbs and shapes them into weapons while standing still, and nobody says anything about it?



UchihaX28 said:


> And please tell me why it doesn't



Okay.

_"Even KCM Minato wasn't shown to have commented on Juubito's actual speed until after he sliced Tobirama in half *which implies that even he couldn't perceive Juubito's Shunshin.* Why? Because if he was able to, he would've considering Suigetsu and Deidara did when Raikage and Sasuke Flickered towards their respective targets."_

Either?or fallacy, aka a False Dilemma. 

_"Minato compliments speed during blitz" _

Or... 

_"Minato cannot perceive blitz" _

When it could really be...

_"Minato did not feel like fucking talking at that point in time"_


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## Saru (Dec 31, 2015)

Rocky said:


> "Senju" doesn't automatically make one comparable to a tailed beast. Tobirama isn't dreaming of outlasting Raikage.



Tsunade has chakra comparable to a tailed beast (she was able to heal an entire village, and then after that still was able to store chakra in her Yin Seal to fight Madara). Hashirama definitely has chakra comparable to tailed beast. I don't see why Tobirama would somehow not benefit from being a Senju in the same way that those two did. It's not like Tobirama's a fodder Senju; Tobirama (along with Hashirama) is a prime example of the Senju clan. From what I can tell, Hiraishin costs almost no chakra to use, and certainly seems to cost less than A's Raiton armor. Therefore, A will fall first.

Also, based on hype, the manga essentially says that Minato >= A. Well, Tobirama can replicate Minato's dodging feats and he logically has more stamina, so he should be able to win.


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## Icegaze (Dec 31, 2015)

So people then believe A is faster than juubito 

So A in speed can keep up with BSM Naruto


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## Icegaze (Dec 31, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Reading back through these war chapters is eye-opening. Jūbi Jin durability is _so_ fucked. How does one go from no-selling Gojō Kibaku Fuda to getting raped by Rasengan?




His goudama shield blocked GFK 

Pretty sure u see it forming again in his hand 

What saru referred to as swift and durable was goudama shape manipulation


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## ARGUS (Dec 31, 2015)

Ay probably outlasts. since tobirama has no means of actually hurting him 




DaVizWiz said:


> *
> CAN Tobirama react to V2 Ei initially without knowledge? That's the question*.



he definitely can,
the fact  that he actually physically tagged juubito over 4 times and was faster  than both KCM minato and KCM naruto,  implies that Ays  speed is no problem for him at all,


he cant physically dodge it, but FTG would definitely suffice 

knowledge doesnt change anything. when he sees a man with bijuu chakra levels rousing up in his armor, and using raiton shunshin, there is no way he underestimates him 



DaVizWiz said:


> *
> Base Minato has better reactions than Ei*.


Cees statemetnt really says otherwise


it implies that Base raikage = Base minato in reactions, 
give Ay the RCM and he has superior reflexes


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## Icegaze (Dec 31, 2015)

Saru said:


> Tsunade has chakra comparable to a tailed beast (she was able to heal an entire village, and then after that still was able to store chakra in her Yin Seal to fight Madara). Hashirama definitely has chakra comparable to tailed beast. I don't see why Tobirama would somehow not benefit from being a Senju in the same way that those two did. It's not like Tobirama's a fodder Senju; Tobirama (along with Hashirama) is a prime example of the Senju clan. From what I can tell, Hiraishin costs almost no chakra to use, and certainly seems to cost less than A's Raiton armor. Therefore, A will fall first.
> 
> Also, based on hype, the manga essentially says that Minato >= A. Well, Tobirama can replicate Minato's dodging feats and he logically has more stamina, so he should be able to win.



Tsunade stores chakra over years to have enough chakra to save her village 

She doesn't by default have tail beast chakra levels 

No reason to assume Tobirama does on account of being a senju


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## Shinobi no Kami (Dec 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So people then believe A is faster than juubito
> 
> So A in speed can keep up with BSM Naruto


in raw speed? of course. BM naruto isnt any faster than kcm naruto and BSM naruto is just sage mode naruto merging his chakra with kuramas. he isnt physically faster featwise.

naruto has the faster shunshin, but isnt on par with Ei in reflexes.


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## Saru (Dec 31, 2015)

I'm not saying that he has Tailed Beast chakra levels, I'm saying that he is probably in the same ballpark as A, and Hiraishin seems to cost less chakra than Raiton armor. I don't think A's chakra levels are vastly superior to Tobirama's, if at all.

Like I said, the manga wants us to believe that Minato >= A, and Tobirama can do exactly what Minato did. Logically, this is the only way Tobirama wins.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 31, 2015)

Ei's V2 was trashed by Edo Madara. Ei's V2 was outpaced by KCM Naruto's Shunshin. Rinnegan Obito had faster striking speed than V2 Ei, because KCM Naruto couldnt get out of the way of his attacks and would have been sucked into Kamui if not for Kakashi and Gai.

Ei is overrated in terms of speed. And we are talking about someone who is on a completely different level of speed. Tobirama's Shunshin was canonically faster than KCM Minato's movement speed. Tobirama could physically react to Juubito's striking speed and Shunshin speed, marking him with Hiraishin's formula. That is a completely different, higher level.



Tobirama outlasts Ei, effortlessly. Ei will use his chakra in order to hit Tobirama and he will definetely use V2 against him. Tobirama, on the other hand, doesnt need chakra in order to easily dodge any of Ei's attacks. Tobirama effortlessly evades him, laughs at his speed level, waits until Ei's RCM goes off due to chakra exhaustion and then speedblitz him.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 31, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It depends on _why_ he's "dumbfounded." Maybe he's going "what the?!" because Obito just raped two Hokage effortlessly. It doesn't _have_ to be because Naruto couldn't see Obito move. Trying to claim that it does is like three different logical fallacies.



 That doesn't make sense. KCM Naruto responded with "Eh?" as if he had no idea what was going on and said "What!?" afterwards implies that he didn't register what had happened completely until a moment later.

  KCM Naruto responded with "What!?" as if he had just registered what had happened, so him responding with "Eh?" before-hand meant that he didn't register what had happened, but he merely detected that Juubito had "suddenly" disappeared, much like Gai's Blitz on Team 7.



> Ah, so your interpretation is that Obito creates the orbs and shapes them into weapons while standing still, and nobody says anything about it?



 Possibly. Hiruzen didn't comment on Juubito's TSB until after Juubito was slicing through Hiruzen's Shuriken.



> Either–or fallacy, aka a False Dilemma.
> 
> _"Minato compliments speed during blitz" _
> 
> ...



 That never refuted my examples. My point was that we've had ninja comment on someone's speed while their opponent was still in motion. Suigetsu commented on Raikage's speed while Raikage was still in motion, much like Deidara commented on Sasuke's speed once he registered him being a few inches away from his face.

 The fact that KCM Minato commented on his speed after Juubito Flickered meant that he didn't detect Juubito's position until after he "blitzed" the Kages.

 What I'm questioning is why KCM Minato or Naruto didn't warn the Kage ahead of time as Juubito began to flicker towards the Kage.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 31, 2015)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Tobirama loses, only due to a lack of a finishing maneuverer.



If we grant him a fuuton, which we know canonically he can use, he wins.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 31, 2015)

Tobirama's actually very talented in all affinities according to the Databook considering the most proficient and talented ninja in ninjutsu, Hiruzen, was the only one stated to have surpassed Tobirama in ninjutsu proficiency and the Databook made it seem as if surpassing Tobirama's talent in ninjutsu was a very high-level feat.

 That's pretty impressive and compels me to believe that Tobirama can penetrate Raikage's Armor with Futon.


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## Saru (Dec 31, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> If we grant him a fuuton, which we know canonically he can use, he wins.



Kishi gave him elements out the wazoo but didn't let him show a single one. 

I buy the Fuuton argument as he has good jutsu speed as well, and Minato was able to Rasengan Yondaime Raikage with Hiraishin, and by all means Tobirama has the reflexes to attack quickly after teleporting (see Tobirama vs. Juubito). Although it's not exactly BD precedent to give characters moves they haven't explicitly used.


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## Icegaze (Dec 31, 2015)

But Tobirama never used futon in the manga 



Can't assume what level of futon he has 

That might be his worst element


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## Saru (Dec 31, 2015)

I'm not saying it's a great argument, but I can see it happening.


----------



## Bringer (Dec 31, 2015)

I'm of the opinion that we can't give character feats for elements they haven't shown even if the databook says they have an affinity for said element.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 31, 2015)

Saru said:


> I'm not saying that he has Tailed Beast chakra levels, I'm saying that he is probably in the same ballpark as A, and Hiraishin seems to cost less chakra than Raiton armor. I don't think A's chakra levels are vastly superior to Tobirama's, if at all.
> 
> Like I said, the manga wants us to believe that Minato >= A,* and Tobirama can do exactly what Minato did. Logically, this is the only way Tobirama wins*.



Manga also wants us to believe that Minato > Tobirama.  
So, him being superior to A does not prove anything in Tobirama's favour, as he is also inferior to Minato.

Better comparison would be
Manga wants us to believe that A/B > Kin/Gin who are > Tobirama.
Therefore, A > Tobirama. Based on this logic.

Since unlike the first comparison, not both of them are inferior.



> I'm not saying that he has Tailed Beast chakra levels, I'm saying that he is probably in the same ballpark as A,


A was hyped for his chakra to be on the same level as a Bijuu. Tobirama is not.
And no, same thing with Hashirama/Tsunade does not apply to Tobirama because of obvious reasons

1- Hashirama's power/chakra is coming from a ghost possessing him and giving him extra abilities.
2- Tsunade is storing her chakra for years and years, and then releases it all at once.

Tobirama does not have either.



UchihaX28 said:


> Tobirama's actually very talented in all affinities according to the Databook considering the most proficient and talented ninja in ninjutsu, Hiruzen, was the only one stated to have surpassed Tobirama in ninjutsu proficiency and the Databook made it seem as if surpassing Tobirama's talent in ninjutsu was a very high-level feat.
> 
> That's pretty impressive and compels me to believe that Tobirama can penetrate Raikage's Armor with Futon.



No. The DB compared them because they are teacher-student. So, that's why. Just like how Fukasaku was comparing Naruto's SM to Minato/Jiraiya even tho Hashirama's SM is superior to theirs. But he is irrelevant to Naruto. It's all in the theme that students > teachers. 

Tobirama's water jutsu are weak even compared to others. Let alone a secondary element.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 31, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I'm of the opinion that we can't give character feats for elements they haven't shown even if the databook says they have an affinity for said element.



The databook does not just say they have the affinity, it says they mastered those elements. So, by not taking it into account we are not underrating people with fewer panels


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## Bringer (Dec 31, 2015)

Do you have a source for that? I recall the databook referring to them as affinities.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Better comparison would be
> Manga wants us to believe that A/B > Kin/Gin who are > Tobirama.
> Therefore, A > Tobirama. Based on this logic.



Logic is not your strong suit is it? 

Let me grant you your argument for a minute. if A/B are > Kin/Gin it does not follow that A alone is > Tobirama

The databook says that Tobirama = Izuna who was comparable to Madara in strength. A could not even defeat inexperienced Sasuke while the databook says Izuna was battle tested. So, by this logic, Tobirama is > A


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## Senjuclan (Dec 31, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Do you have a source for that? I recall the databook referring to them as affinities.



You know we have had this discussion before, right? I gave you the source but here ya go

Possession: Nature Transformation

The nature transformations that shinobi can handle are shown. With the appended "Fire", "Wind", "Water", "Earth" and "Lightning" as well as "Yin" and "Yang", seven natures exist.

※Possession: Nature Transformation makes a guess according to that shinobi's battle experience so far, also eye powers change the current stats.


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## Bringer (Dec 31, 2015)

No where does it say "master" though. For all we know "handling" the element can range anywhere from splitting paper in half by focusing Fuuton chakra into it, to busting out Danzo level Fuuton. I still don't think using featless elements is a good idea. Do we put a limit on it depending on the character? Could I say since Sakura has water, she can bust out superior water style ninjutsu than Kisame just cuz?


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## Senjuclan (Dec 31, 2015)

BringerOfChaos said:


> No where does it say "master" though. For all we know "handling" the element can range anywhere from splitting paper in half by focusing Fuuton chakra into it, to busting out Danzo level Fuuton. I still don't think using featless elements is a good idea. Do we put a limit on it depending on the character? Could I say since Sakura has water, she can bust out superior water style ninjutsu than Kisame just cuz?



1. Handle in this case is use based on experience according the text
2. What level of jutsu is never my concern because we can't guess. I am only contending that those shinobi have experience using the affinities Kishi says they have.


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## Rocky (Dec 31, 2015)

Tobirama may not be good enough at fūton to overcome the level of raiton that Raikage uses, so it isn't an answer for him. Raikage also took a gigantic Chidori to the chest with nothing more than a scratch to show, so Tobirama isn't likely to do any meaningful damage even if he could blow away the armor.


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## Trojan (Dec 31, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> Logic is not your strong suit is it?
> 
> Let me grant you your argument for a minute. if A/B are > Kin/Gin it does not follow that A alone is > Tobirama
> 
> The databook says that Tobirama = Izuna who was comparable to Madara in strength. A could not even defeat inexperienced Sasuke while the databook says Izuna was battle tested. So, by this logic, Tobirama is > A



1- I am using his logic. He said that since Minato > A, then that means Tobirama > A.
I am telling him that is not the case because just like with the Raikage, Tobirama is also inferior to
Minato. So, how does that prove anything to Tobirama? Well, it does not.

2- After that, I told him applying HIS logic. A will be the superior one if we added an actual factor that is Kinkaku because by adding him, we know he is stronger than Tobirama, but the manga also portrayed him weaker than the Raikage. Which shows that A is also stronger than Tobirama.



> if A/B are > Kin/Gin it does not follow that A alone is > Tobirama



His argument is "What the manga wants us to believe". The manga A was pretty much portrayed as such when he wanted to go and handle them. In addition, we know that A is faster than Kinkaku and more durable as well. Therefore, it's idiotic to assume that A won't be able to handle Tobirama's speed with FTG, when someone weaker and slower did. 


3- We have went through that a trillion time. Izuna being equal to asspulldara IS A MISTRANSLATION.

It really isn't my fault that people do not want to get over it. Heck, even in the manga, they were
never portrayed as such. Izuna himself was dumbfounded hearing someone is stronger than his brother. Not to mention, itachi was proven ignorance and really not reliable in this case at least because the story he gave about asspulldara and izuna is different the one Hashirama said.

Now, comparing Izuna and Sasuke will not get us anywhere really because we have no idea
about Izuna's abilities either. Best case assumption is he has Enton since Tobirama knows about it.
And that's as far as we know.

That is from 1 side. If you go to other side of assumption, Izuna would only be "comparable" to MS Asspulldara, whom we do not even know much about his
ability with only MS either.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Dec 31, 2015)

Portrayal, Tobirama was far above Base Minato.

 Tobirama flared out his chakra and EMS Sasuke and Zetsu Orochimaru pissed themselves.

 I love how people claim that Tobirama lost to Kin and Gin when it more like, Kin/Gin along with 18 other Shinobi along with the fact that Kin/Gin possesses Rikudou's Tools. We don't even know the specifics of the fight regardless.

 We know Kakuzu fought Shodai Hokage while being implied to have lost just 2 hearts even though we don't know the specifics of that fight.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 31, 2015)

You're just being delusional. Nothing new really.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 31, 2015)

Suigetsu was the one who shat himself. Sasuke appeared to be preparing to defend himself, and he would have done so via a low-diff spanking provided Hashirama didn't interfere. EMS Sasuke would not be losing to some Cloud bounty squad.


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## Bringer (Dec 31, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Handle in this case is use based on experience according the text
> 2. What level of jutsu is never my concern because we can't guess. I am only contending that those shinobi have experience using the affinities Kishi says they have.



Then we'll have to agree to disagree on this. 



Rocky said:


> Suigetsu was the one who shat himself. Sasuke appeared to be preparing to defend himself, and he would have done so via a low-diff spanking provided Hashirama didn't interfere. EMS Sasuke would not be losing to some Cloud bounty squad.




Nah, you can't deny Sasuke and Orochimaru looked worried.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 31, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Suigetsu was the one who shat himself. Sasuke appeared to be preparing to defend himself, and he would have done so via a low-diff spanking provided Hashirama didn't interfere. EMS Sasuke would not be losing to some Cloud bounty squad.



chakra-torpedo

 EMS Sasuke was actually breaking a sweat due to Tobirama flaring out his chakra though I will admit that Orochimaru didn't seem as shocked, but that's likely due to being able to bind Tobirama.

 I doubt EMS Sasuke would've broken a sweat if it were a fodder ninja flaring out their chakra.


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## Rocky (Dec 31, 2015)

@ BoC

Worried about a sudden attack, not that they would have trouble countering that attack and violating Tobirama shortly thereafter.



UchihaX28 said:


> I doubt EMS Sasuke would've broken a sweat if it were a fodder ninja flaring out their chakra.



Tobirama isn't some fodder ninja, so what is your point here?


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## Trojan (Dec 31, 2015)

UchihaX28 said:


> Portrayal, Tobirama was far above Base Minato.
> 
> Tobirama flared out his chakra and EMS Sasuke and Zetsu Orochimaru pissed themselves.
> *
> ...



That's in the second battle. And even if Tobirama had help from his students, he would have still lost. 
Also, Kinkaku was also stated to have defeated Tobirama. 

- Actually, Kakuzu stole his hearts jutsu AFTER he lost to Hashirama. He did not have that jutsu when
he first fought hashirama.

As for Sasuke's nose in the matter is irrelevant. You claim "Portrayal, Tobirama was far above Base Minato."
Which is rather idiotic if you have actually read the manga. Every time these 2 are put together, it's stated that Minato is superior


"Minato* handles to perfection the “Hiraishin no jutsu” *space-time ninjutsu that was invented by Nidaime Hokage Senju Tobirama," 
" *Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed*, the honour of that valour fascinates even the elites of other villages."[]. 
Flying Thunder God Level 2: "It is *an evolved variation* of space-time ninjutsu!!"[]
Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi "Fourth Hokage taking this technique *and pushing it even higher*"[]
"Namikaze Minato *improved* the mastery of “Hiraishin no jutsu”, and thus took the nickname “The Yellow Flash”. The excellent jutsu was *refined* according to the disciple, who* evolved it *together with the era." []



You just need to learn how to read and understand what you actually read.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> That's in the second battle. And even if Tobirama had help from his students, he would have still lost.
> Also, Kinkaku was also stated to have defeated Tobirama.



 We don't even know how powerful his students were and we don't the specifics of the fight. All that was stated was that the ninja that were chasing them were Highly Skilled Kumo Ninja.



> - Actually, Kakuzu stole his hearts jutsu AFTER he lost to Hashirama. He did not have that jutsu when he first fought hashirama.



 And when was that stated?


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## Trojan (Dec 31, 2015)

UchihaX28 said:


> We don't even know how powerful his students were and we don't the specifics of the fight. All that was stated was that the ninja that were chasing them were Highly Skilled Kumo Ninja.
> 
> 
> 
> And when was that stated?



1- Strong enough to be the next Hokage. 
No one claimed that we know exactly what happened. 
The fact of the matter is we are talking about how they were portrayed, and it's portrayed that
they are superior to Tobirama, whether you like it or not.  

Why are we talking about how they are "portrayed'? Because of the following reasons.
A: People know that Tobirama does not have the feats to actually defeat A.
B: Tobirama did not really have that much time to show his abilities.

Too bad for him, in both cases, he has nothing on A. 

2- In the databook. 


He stole the forbidden jutsu AFTER his battle, not before as stated.
(the last 2 lines in the para)


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## Ghoztly (Dec 31, 2015)

A has more chakra than Tobirama and Sasuke charged in on him with no hesitation. Tobirama didn't scare Sasuke at all, think about the situation they were in.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 31, 2015)

All right, thanks Hussain. 

 Looks like I was wrong.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 1- I am using his logic. He said that since Minato > A, then that means Tobirama > A.
> I am telling him that is not the case because just like with the Raikage, Tobirama is also inferior to
> Minato. So, how does that prove anything to Tobirama? Well, it does not.
> 
> ...



1. If it was HIS logic, I will simply ignore the whole thing
2. Data book 4 says that Izuna was "next to Madara" in power and that he was Tobirama's equal. Try reading it next time instead spewing silliness


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 31, 2015)

Izuna never seemed to be on par with Madara at any point in the manga. Even Hashirama's story seemed to depict Madara as Izuna's superior IMO.


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## Trojan (Dec 31, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. If it was HIS logic, I will simply ignore the whole thing
> 2. Data book 4 says that Izuna was "next to Madara" in power and that he was Tobirama's equal. Try reading it next time instead spewing silliness



and what does "next to madata" tell us? We know he is the strongest after his brother. That does not tell us the different in power between them. Just like how Tobirama is the 2nd strongest after Hashirama, but the different in power is enormous.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 1, 2016)

Tobirama's capability of evading Ei, even V2 Ei, without using any chakra, shouldnt be debatable right now. Tobirama exhausts him.


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## Rocky (Jan 1, 2016)

No, he isn't.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 1, 2016)

Rocky said:


> No, he isn't.



Let me know when Ei has speed feats comparable to those of Tobirama. His V2 RCM got countered by Edo Madara without any trouble. His lightened V2 RCM could be percieved by Edo Madara. And that's the *slower-than-alive* Madara. 

And Tobirama not only reacted to Juubito's Shunshin speed - he reacted to his striking speed and marked him. He did something even RCM Minato couldnt do. 

Tobirama is on a completely different speed level. There is nothing Ei can hit him with. It is an easy fight for Tobirama - just dodge Ei every time, wait for his exhaustion from using V2 RCM too much and then kill him with Suiton. That's it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 1, 2016)

Tobirama kept up with super Minato.  Or super Minato kept up with him.

He puts Ei in a coffin.


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## Rocky (Jan 1, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Fastest punch? I dont remember him saying anything like that. Maybe a "super speed punch"?



He told Naruto that he was "the second person to ever outrun his fastest punch" in the viz translation.  



StarWanderer said:


> Plus, you have to prove his hair is not spiked in that scan



You can't extract "proof" of anything from ambiguously-drawn artwork.



StarWanderer said:


> Spiked hair is not the only one indication of V2 RCM - the Raiton Armor's thickness is another indication of V2.



That's even more inconsistent than his hair. 



StarWanderer said:


> Edo Madara was looking at the exact direction from which the Aggravated Rock Technique went out.



There is literally an "fsp" sfx of Raikage leaving Madara's vision. 



StarWanderer said:


> So yeah - Tobirama reacted to Juubito's speed. Juubi Jin's speed. Ei's feats are not even remotely close to that.



Hey, maybe you're overestimating Obito's speed? Actually, this might be fun. Let's do a feat comparison. 

1.) _What is the fastest attack that Obito has evaded? _

Melee from Naruto & Sasuke...?

2.) _What is the fastest attack that Raikage has evaded? _

Amaterasu manifesting on to his chest.

3.) _Who is fastest person that Obito has blitzed?_

That Hashirama clone...?

4.) _Who is fastest person that Raikage has blitzed?_

Zetsu in base I guess...



StarWanderer said:


> He attempted to hit him. He could do the same thing Tobirama's done, since he is an Edo anyway - counter-attack him, sacrificing a part of his body.



Can you not see the differences? Tobirama was standing there, while Minato was counter-attacked. Tobirama got chopped in half, while Minato evaded and thus avoided getting chopped in half. 



StarWanderer said:


> Not as much as Raikage's V2 RCM.



If he wasn't hitting Tobirama in RCM, then he'd either: 

a) Trick Tobirama, catch him off-guard, and then kill him.

b) Deactivate RCM, fight in base, and outlast Tobirama.



StarWanderer said:


> Tobirama's Suiton can.



Branches ≠ Raikage


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 1, 2016)

> He told Naruto that he was "the second person to ever outrun his fastest punch" in the viz translation.



Proof please.

Anyway, Ei definetely used his V2 RCM against Edo Madara. And judging from his spiked hair and Raiton Armor's thickness, that punch was at least very close to his "fastest punch"..



> You can't extract "proof" of anything from ambiguously-drawn artwork.



Because of the drawing's "angle", we cant be sure that his hair isnt spiked. Also, Madara blocked that punch, slowing Ei down immediately. So that could result in such a hair, considering the fact that when Ei moves in V2, his spiked hair also moves due to such a high speed level, you know.



> That's even more inconsistent than his hair.



In fact, it is not. Relook the manga.



> There is literally an "fsp" sfx of Raikage leaving Madara's vision.



Yet Madara was looking at the exact same direction from which Aggravated Rock Technique came out. Madara percieved his movement.



> Hey, maybe you're overestimating Obito's speed? Actually, this might be fun. Let's do a feat comparison.
> 
> 1.) What is the fastest attack that Obito has evaded?
> 
> ...



1. BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke, amped by Jugo's senjutsu? That's a bad feat in your opinion? That's better than anything V2 Ei displayed in the manga.

2. Which is featless and only has the hype to be "unavoidable", although Ei could avoid it and Hachibi could protect himself from it with his tentacle.

3. Rinnegan Obito's striking speed was so high that KCM Naruto couldnt go out of it's way on multiple occasions and would have been sucked into Kamui if not for Gai and Kakashi. This is Juubito, who's speed was amped by Juubi's chakra (senjutsu). Also, it seems you dont care that he could easily tear off Minato's arm and put Truthseeker on him without Minato even noticing.

4. Raikage's speed is massively overrated. And yeah, he never blitzed anyone realy fast. He has no feats on Tobirama's magnitude. Not even remotely close.



> Can you not see the differences? Tobirama was standing there, while Minato was counter-attacked. Tobirama got chopped in half, while Minato evaded and thus avoided getting chopped in half.



Juubito havent used the same Truthseeker he used against Tobirama. Also, judging from Manga scans, Tobirama marked Juubito with the hand which was destroyed by the Truthseeker. He could mark him before Juubito hit him and we know for sure that Tobirama didnt even try to dodge, because he wanted to use Gibakufuda. Also, Juubito attached Truthseeker to KCM Minato without him even noticing that.

Minato could turn around and counter-attack him, especially when Juubito didnt use Truthseeker against him in the same way he used it against Tobirama. But he didnt. Yes, Tobirama was standing there. But he could mark Juubito before Juubito hit him.



An obvious speed gap between Tobirama and Ei. A huge, very huge speed gap.



> If he wasn't hitting Tobirama in RCM, then he'd either:
> 
> a) Trick Tobirama, catch him off-guard, and then kill him.
> 
> b) Deactivate RCM, fight in base, and outlast Tobirama.



a) He is not smart enough for that. Also, he will continue to use V2 against him. This is IC Ei.

b) The only feat base Ei has is surviving Tenso no Jutsu, which is featless in it's own right, being said to rip apart humen's bodies while teleporting them, but teleporting any other objects without damaging them (lol). Tobirama's Suiton can rip through featless shinobi and cut them to pieces. So what? It is highly debatable if base Ei can survive such a Suiton.



> Branches ≠ Raikage



Branches > human body.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 1, 2016)

Raikage's body>>Branches>normal human body .


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## StarWanderer (Jan 1, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Raikage's body>>Branches>normal human body .



Raikage's only base durability feat is surviving Tenso, which is featless in it's own right, being capable of teleporting inanimate objects without damaging them (such a destructive technique yeah?).


----------



## hbcaptain (Jan 1, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Raikage's only base durability feat is surviving Tenso, which is featless in it's own right, being capable of teleporting inanimate objects without damaging them (such a destructive technique yeah?).


1-normal human body can survive the pressure , and Tsunade which is more durable (Kusanagi can't slice her in half , same goes for Susano'o sord) barely survive it => Ei is much more durable than normal human body .

2-Kabuto's chakra scalpel cut Mokuton handly while Tsunade tank it with some difficulty => Raikage base body tank chakra scalpel and more durable than Yamato's Mokuton .

3-Mifune slash cliced Shinju's branches=>Raikage is more durable than Shinju branches .

We are only talking about base Raikage , Raiton cloak alone is a wonderful defense , even high level pirecing ninjutsu like Chidori still can't make it . Same goes for Madara's Susano'o sword , it can't peirce it .


----------



## Trojan (Jan 1, 2016)

It's funny that star still say the nonsense "Madara blocked A, and Tobirama reacted to obito"
When madara chopped those black rods up Tobirama's ass.


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 1, 2016)

Hussain said:


> and what does "next to madata" tell us? We know he is the strongest after his brother. That does not tell us the different in power between them. Just like how Tobirama is the 2nd strongest after Hashirama, but the different in power is enormous.



Next to means near, not far from, comparable.

Tobirama's power is not comparable to Hashirama. that's been made abundantly clear. Madara and Izuna were near equal though


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 1, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Izuna never seemed to be on par with Madara at any point in the manga. Even Hashirama's story seemed to depict Madara as Izuna's superior IMO.



Thanks for sharing your opinion... I will go with Kishi statement instead


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Next to means near, comparable. Tobirama's power is not comparable to Hashirama that's been made abundantly clear. Madara and Izuna were near equal though



I disagree. It seemed that they were both pretty much the same on either side. Madara was portrayed as Hashirama's equal and Tobirama was portrayed to be equal to Izuna. Well, the Senju side was a tad superior but Tobirama was also portrayed as the second to Hashirama, as Izuna was portrayed as the second to Madara. If Izuna was anywhere near the actual power of Madara, I doubt that Tobirama would have killed him. Izuna being close to Madara wouldn't have made sense, since as you say Tobirama's power isn't close to Hashirama's and Izuna and Tobirama were portrayed to be on equal footing.


----------



## hbcaptain (Jan 1, 2016)

When Izuna was still alive , Madara was just a mere MS user with all its reperussions , his power and chakra was nowhere near his VoTE version .


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> When Izuna was still alive , Madara was just an MS user with all its reperussions , his power and chakra was nowhere near his VoTE version .



He wasn't just 'an MS user', he could still compete with Hashirama. Izuna as a child was shocked that Hashirama was stronger than Madara. 



Madara was always portrayed as superior to Izuna. Izuna was always clashing with Tobirama, and Madara was always clashing with Hashirama.

Tobirama = Izuna

Hashirama = Madara

Madara >>> Izuna

Hashirama >>> Tobirama


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## Trojan (Jan 1, 2016)

Tobirama > Izuna
Hashirama > Asspulldara (EMS)

Hashirama >>>>>>>>>> Izuna
Asspulldara>>>>>>> Tobirama


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## hbcaptain (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> He wasn't just 'an MS user', he could still compete with Hashirama. Izuna as a child was shocked that Hashirama was stronger than Madara.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And Hashirama wasn't that strong eighter , if he fought young MS Madara  , then he wasn't a Senjutsu user yet and his Mokuton monsters wasn't that strong , his speed and Taijutsu wasn't high eigther .


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## Senjuclan (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I disagree. It seemed that they were both pretty much the same on either side. Madara was portrayed as Hashirama's equal and Tobirama was portrayed to be equal to Izuna. Well, the Senju side was a tad superior but Tobirama was also portrayed as the second to Hashirama, as Izuna was portrayed as the second to Madara. If Izuna was anywhere near the actual power of Madara, I doubt that Tobirama would have killed him. Izuna being close to Madara wouldn't have made sense, since as you say Tobirama's power isn't close to Hashirama's and Izuna and Tobirama were portrayed to be on equal footing.



In other words, I don't like what the author said so I will tell Kishi how I want a hints to be

To address your actual argument.
1. Madara was never portrayed as Hashirama's equal. He was only portrayed as his rival but clearly stated to be weaker
2. EMS vs MS makes a huge difference. Izuna had MS only and the author states that his true power was comparable to Madara. That is a fact not sure what there is to discuss
3. You assume that Izuna and Tobirama had to balance Madara and Hashirama and that the Senju and Uchiha were near equal in strength. That is simply not supported by the story. The story is this: Hashirama was the strongest but did not want to kill Madara. Madara before Izuna's death was a tad stronger than Izuna and Izuna was equal to Tobirama. That's it.


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> In other words, I don't like what the author said so I will tell Kishi how I want a hints to be
> 
> To address your actual argument.
> 1. Madara was never portrayed as Hashirama's equal. He was only portrayed as his rival but clearly stated to be weaker
> ...



Dude, you literally said in your other post that Tobirama was equal to Izuna according to the DB, yet you say that Tobirama's strength doesn't compare to Hashirama's whereas Izuna's strength compares to Madara's. Hashirama wasn't that much stronger than Madara, he was stronger sure, but not by a massive margin.

1. He was weaker but only slightly, in general they were portrayed as equals. Hashirama defeated Madara twice but it's not like he did it easily, he still fought him for a long ass time before he could defeat him.

2. When was that? If his true power was anywhere close to Madara's, I don't see Tobirama beating him either. It's not like Madara pre-EMS was a scrub.

3. The Senju and Uchiha were near equal in strength, when people hired the Senju, others hired the Uchiha and vice versa. Please show me the panels where Izuna was said to be next to Madara in power, I don't really remember that.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Dude, you literally said in your other post that Tobirama was equal to Izuna according to the DB, yet you say that Tobirama's strength doesn't compare to Hashirama's whereas Izuna's strength compares to Madara's. Hashirama wasn't that much stronger than Madara, he was stronger sure, but not by a massive margin.
> 
> 1. He was weaker but only slightly, in general they were portrayed as equals. Hashirama defeated Madara twice but it's not like he did it easily, he still fought him for a long ass time before he could defeat him.
> 
> ...



Madara with EMS and kyuubi was weaker than Hashirama, which means MS was significantly weaker than Hashirama. MS Madara was nearly as strong as Tobirama and Izuna

1. They were never portrayed as equal. So, this point is moot. Furthermore, you are conflating versions of Madara. Of course EMS Madara with kyuubi is much stronger than MS Izuna. However, their MS versions are near identical

2. By saying that pre-EMS Madara was no scrub, you imply that you think Izuna was. However, as I have told you multiple times now the DB4, states that they equal in abilities (literally true power according to the translator. Your real problem is that you are underrating Tobirama by saying that if Izuna was nearly as strong as MS Madara, then Tobirama could not kill him. The only problem with that is that Kishi disagrees with you

3. Again, you are stating something the manga never said. The manga only says that the Senju were stronger than the Uchiha. Rivalry does not indicate near equality. The Lakers and Celtics were rivals in the 60's but the Celtics were definitely the better team. 

4. Go to the translation section and search for Izuna. My iPad will log me out if I navigate to a different page. Too much headache

P.S: here ya go. Third translation on this page. Sorry on my iPad


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## StarWanderer (Jan 1, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> 1-normal human body can survive the pressure , and Tsunade which is more durable (Kusanagi can't slice her in half , same goes for Susano'o sord) barely survive it => Ei is much more durable than normal human body .
> 
> 2-Kabuto's chakra scalpel cut Mokuton handly while Tsunade tank it with some difficulty => Raikage base body tank chakra scalpel and more durable than Yamato's Mokuton .
> 
> ...



She didnt "barely survive it". She used her Byakugou seal in order to heal herself.

Tsunade never tanked chakra scalpel - it cut through her nice and dandy.

But yeah - Raikage's body can survive probably one Tobirama's Suiton. But what about 10? 20 Tobirama's Suitons?


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## hbcaptain (Jan 1, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> She didnt "barely survive it". She used her Byakugou seal in order to heal herself.
> 
> Tsunade never tanked chakra scalpel - it cut through her nice and dandy.
> 
> But yeah - Raikage's body can survive probably one Tobirama's Suiton. But what about 10? 20 Tobirama's Suitons?


Tobirama needs to use about many succesive Suidana on the Raiton cloak without a break ,I don't think he is able to do so , because even if one blow scratched a little Raikage's RCM , he still can reform it as he did against Sasuke (going to V2 after receiving Chidori) .


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## StarWanderer (Jan 1, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Tobirama needs to use about many succesive Suidana on the Raiton cloak without a break ,I don't think he is able to do so , because even if one blow scratched a little Raikage's RCM , he still can reform it as he did against Sasuke (going to V2 after receiving Chidori) .



Ei uses V2 against him, but fails every time. Eventually, Ei gets exhausted with being unable to land a single hit on Tobirama due to his much higher speed level. Ei's Raiton cloak goes off due to chakra exhaustion and then Tobirama uses many Suitons in order to kill him.


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## Rocky (Jan 1, 2016)

Suiton: Suidanha is a goddamn stream of water. It isn't sharper than Sasuke's chokutō soaked in lightning. With raiton chakra, B could turn a pencil into a weapon with penetrative force above that of a fūton. A fucking _pencil_. Image how sharp Sasuke's blade (you know, the one that bounced off Raikage's neck?) was. Don't try to say that B was better than Sasuke at raiton-flow either, because they were dead even. [1][2]

Tobirama has _no_ hope of breaching A's armor. As for whether or not Tobirama can actually hurt A himself, he doesn't have anything sharp enough to deal a decisive blow. Chidori got through the armor and proceeded to do jack shit to Raikage. Heavenly Transfer tears people apart, but it did jack shit to Raikage. Tobirama hasn't shown us anything more penetrative than Chidori nor has he torn anyone to shreds, so it doesn't look good for him.


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## Itachі (Jan 1, 2016)

I agree about Suidanha being mostly useless but we don't know the mechanics of Mabui's teleportation technique. It can teleport objects intact with no damage but it doesn't do the same for humans, that's just weird.


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## Rocky (Jan 1, 2016)

That's because the technique wasn't designed for humans.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 1, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Suiton: Suidanha is a goddamn stream of water. It isn't sharper than Sasuke's chokutō soaked in lightning. With raiton chakra, B could turn a pencil into a weapon with penetrative force above that of a fūton. A fucking _pencil_. Image how sharp Sasuke's blade (you know, the one that bounced off Raikage's neck?) was. Don't try to say that B was better than Sasuke at raiton-flow either, because they were dead even. [1][2]
> 
> Tobirama has _no_ hope of breaching A's armor. As for whether or not Tobirama can actually hurt A himself, he doesn't have anything sharp enough to deal a decisive blow. Chidori got through the armor and proceeded to do jack shit to Raikage. Heavenly Transfer tears people apart, but it did jack shit to Raikage. Tobirama hasn't shown us anything more penetrative than Chidori nor has he torn anyone to shreds, so it doesn't look good for him.



This fight comes down to whether or not you want to grant Tobirama the fuuton Kishi says he can use. If you do, Ei has no prayer even with edo tensei restricted


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 1, 2016)

> Cees statemetnt really says otherwise
> 
> 
> it implies that Base raikage = Base minato in reactions,
> give Ay the RCM and he has superior reflexes


And?

Cee was 10 when Minato died and never met him in his waking life. Dude has no idea what he's talking about. 

Base Minato proved he had far better reactions when he warped into Gudodama (physically touching his back), and warped out- before they could do any damage to him. 

Anime/gifs suggest he actually warped to the kunai, then turned around putting his back to the Gudodamam, then they came into contact with him, then he teleported out before they even damaged his cloak.

He also reacted to Kamui without knowledge.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 2, 2016)

If Tobirama wins it's going to be because his weapon becomes as magical as Minato's anti-Ei kunai, like it did when both he and Madara thought that hiraishin-giri kunai was going to kill super juubi godara with sage Hashi regen.

Like that scene makes the same amount of sense as Ei being scared of Minato's kunai, but they both happened and they'd probably happen again if Tobirama fought Ei.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 2, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> And?
> 
> Cee was 10 when Minato died and never met him in his waking life. Dude has no idea what he's talking about.



 I'm assuming C said it for the shits and giggles.


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## ~M~ (Jan 2, 2016)

Cqc characters have a distinct advantage in the narutoverse in that they tend to have equal defense to their offense such as Ei does. Sadly 2nd hokage is just a speedster and mid kage in destructive capability, with mid-long ninjutsu.

He gets a lesson in taijutsu with his head ten meters in the air off his body.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 2, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Suiton: Suidanha is a goddamn stream of water. It isn't sharper than Sasuke's chokutō soaked in lightning. With raiton chakra, B could turn a pencil into a weapon with penetrative force above that of a fūton. A fucking _pencil_. Image how sharp Sasuke's blade (you know, the one that bounced off Raikage's neck?) was. Don't try to say that B was better than Sasuke at raiton-flow either, because they were dead even. [1][2]
> 
> Tobirama has _no_ hope of breaching A's armor. As for whether or not Tobirama can actually hurt A himself, he doesn't have anything sharp enough to deal a decisive blow. Chidori got through the armor and proceeded to do jack shit to Raikage. Heavenly Transfer tears people apart, but it did jack shit to Raikage. Tobirama hasn't shown us anything more penetrative than Chidori nor has he torn anyone to shreds, so it doesn't look good for him.



Chidori got through but was stopped by Ei's Raiton. If there was no Raiton Armor, Ei would have been dead.

Heavenly Transfer is featless and could only damage Tsunade's skin, which has never been super-durable without Byakugou. Plus, it cant transfer other people due to the level of speed, but can transfer inanimate objects without damaging them? *Such a super-uber-ultra-mega destructive teleportation which takes out people's souls and vaporizes them to a near-molekular level with Transfer super-release, yeah?*


With his Suiton, Tobirama can cut people to peaces. He could cut Shinju's branch with such a Suiton. Without RCM, Ei wont be able to survive, lets say, 10 Suitons. 

And, of course, Tobirama can exhaust Ei to the point when there will be no RCM left. 



> Cqc characters have a distinct advantage in the narutoverse in that they tend to have equal defense to their offense such as Ei does. Sadly 2nd hokage is just a speedster and mid kage in destructive capability, with mid-long ninjutsu.
> 
> He gets a lesson in taijutsu with his head ten meters in the air off his body.



Ei, even in his V2, is too slow and predictable to be able to hit Tobirama, who is on a completely different speed level. Ei wont land a single hit on Tobirama.


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## Rocky (Jan 2, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Chidori got through but was stopped by Ei's Raiton. If there was no Raiton Armor, Ei would have been dead.



He got through the armor with Chidori, but he couldn't get through A's chest. Saying he would have been dead without the armor is unsubstantiated. 



StarWanderer said:


> Heavenly Transfer is featless and could only damage Tsunade's skin, which has never been super-durable without Byakugou.



I beg to differ, and that would just mean that Tsunade is more durable than you think anyway. It isn't as if Tobirama's ever chopped Tsunade in half.



StarWanderer said:


> Plus, it cant transfer other people due to the level of speed, but can transfer inanimate objects without damaging them?



Yes, why is that so hard to believe? 



StarWanderer said:


> With his Suiton, Tobirama can cut people to peaces. He could cut Shinju's branch with such a Suiton. Without RCM, Ei wont be able to survive, lets say, 10 Suitons.



That's baseless. Normal people don't survive Heavenly Transfer or Chidori, and those branches have been torn apart by blunt attacks like Orochimaru's snakes & Hiruzen's staff. Severing Wave isn't doing anything to A. It _might_ give him a paper cut. With RCM, it does absolutely nothing. 



StarWanderer said:


> And, of course, Tobirama can exhaust Ei to the point when there will be no RCM left.



No, he can't.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 2, 2016)

> He got through the armor with Chidori, but he couldn't get through A's chest. Saying he would have been dead without the armor is unsubstantiated.



His RCM deflected Kusanagi. The same could happen there - Raiton could pull back Sasuke's Chidori so it wont go through Ei.



> I beg to differ, and that would just mean that Tsunade is more durable than you think anyway. It isn't as if Tobirama's ever chopped Tsunade in half.



Tsunade's skin doesnt have good durability feats, as far as i remember.



> Yes, why is that so hard to believe?



So it can teleport, lets say, an inanimate object as durable as Shinju's branch, which cant tank Tobirama's Suiton, without harming it? 



> That's baseless. Normal people don't survive Heavenly Transfer or Chidori, and those branches have been torn apart by blunt attacks like Orochimaru's snakes & Hiruzen's staff. Severing Wave isn't doing anything to A. It might give him a paper cut. With RCM, it does absolutely nothing.



Tobirama can use Suiton when there will be no RCM. Also, you still have to prove that Ei himself is durable enough to withstand, lets say, 10 Suitons from Tobirama.



> No, he can't.



Yes, he can. Thanks to his intelligence and speed.


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## Dr. White (Jan 2, 2016)

chidori didn't pierce Ei because it had to work through the armor...Which is why Ei is surprised Sauce beat his armor and not his skin. It's like saying if stabbed through a bullet proof vest with a akatana and only get 3 inches into your body, that you have superhuman durability. No it's the vest.


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## Rocky (Jan 2, 2016)

On a phone, so I'm not going to quote.

1.) Chidori went _though_ the armor. If A couldn't survive Chidori, then he wouldn't have survived it against Sasuke.

2.) Tsunade's skin tanked Magatama. Kusanagi didn't slash clean through her either, even though it can apparently "cut anything."

3.) It can teleport any inanimate objects without damaging them. That's what the technique was designed for. When humans go through, they get torn apart.

4.) If A gets hit by the severing waves, it's either going to do nothing at all (like Heavenly Transfer) or give him a paper cut. It's not going to do as well as Chidori did, and even that only gave him a shallow wound. It's going to take more than ten scrapes to kill Raikage.

5.) There's no evidence that Tobirama can even tire A to where he can no longer use RCM without collapsing from exaushtion himself. So even if Tobirama was comfortable with A's speed without Hiraishin (and he isn't), A could still just tire him out. A's far stronger & far more durable, and he's got chakra comparable to a tailed beast.


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## Itachі (Jan 2, 2016)

Orochimaru never attempted to bisect Tsunade, he attempted to slice up a Genin on the floor and Tsunade got in the way.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> On a phone, so I'm not going to quote.
> 
> 1.) Chidori went _though_ the armor. If A couldn't survive Chidori, then he wouldn't have survived it against Sasuke.
> 
> ...



1) Either Raiton was pulling Chidori out, or, well, Dr. White explained the thing. Ei was surprised that Sasuke got through his armor, not his skin.

2) Good point. But Magatamas are also featless. And it got through her skin, am i right? 

3) The speed is so high it torns apart humen, but cant torn apart an inanimate object? 

4) I dont remember Raikage being durable enough. 

5) He is. Let me know when V2 Ei has feats comparable to those of Tobirama, who could react to Juubito's physical movement speed and Shunshin speed. Ei is stronger and more durable, but he will use chakra (V2) for sure, while Tobirama doesnt need to use it at all. And he has a strong chakra himself (Senju + was capable of teleporting 2 Kurama Avatars at the same time).

But seriously, why Tobirama cant keep up with Raikage's V2 and easily evade him? Ei has no speed and reflexes feats even close to those of Tobirama. Ei's V2 was manhandled by Edo Madara. Tobirama physically reacted to Juubito's movement speed and Shunshin speed. Plus, he was canonically faster than both Hashirama and Madara. Ei wont land a single hit on him.


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## TobiramaSS (Jan 3, 2016)

Tobirama > Minato > Ay
The Senju brothers are on a whole different league.


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## Itachі (Jan 3, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> Tobirama > Minato > Ay
> The Senju brothers are on a whole different league.



A>B>C logic only works in certain conditions, otherwise it's horrible, like in this case.


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## TobiramaSS (Jan 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> A>B>C logic only works in certain conditions, otherwise it's horrible, like in this case.



Why not? Tobirama is faster than Ay canonically and therefore he'll emerge as the victor. In a battle of speed, it's only logical the faster man will win.


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## Itachі (Jan 3, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> Why not? Tobirama is faster than Ay canonically and therefore he'll emerge as the victor. In a battle of speed, it's only logical the faster man will win.



Tobirama's not faster than Ei, he has better reflexes but he's not physically faster. It's also not a battle of speed, it being a battle means that one of them has to land a killing blow, you know. With Tobirama's arsenal it doesn't look like he can easily land such a hit.


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## TobiramaSS (Jan 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Tobirama's not faster than Ei


Umm yes he is, I just proved it to you in the scans.



Itachі said:


> With Tobirama's arsenal it doesn't look like he can easily land such a hit.


I can't see why he can't just  or kill him with Tenkyū
Alternatively he could use  to blow himself up and take out the Raikage with him.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 3, 2016)

> Tobirama's not faster than Ei, he has better reflexes but he's not physically faster.



Oh come on. Not physically faster? He marked Juubito before he could hit him. He reacted to Juubito's Shunshin speed and movement speed, marking him. Ei has no feats on that magnitude. Not even remotely close. Tobirama is physically a lot faster than V2 Ei.



> With Tobirama's arsenal it doesn't look like he can easily land such a hit.



He can exhauste Ei to the point when there will be no RCM. After that, Tobirama can spam Suitons.


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## Itachі (Jan 3, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> Umm yes he is, I just proved it to you in the scans.





StarWanderer said:


> Oh come on. Not physically faster? He marked Juubito before he could hit him. He reacted to Juubito's Shunshin speed and movement speed, marking him. Ei has no feats on that magnitude. Not even remotely close. Tobirama is physically a lot faster than V2 Ei.



Sorry, I got mixed up. I do think that Tobirama's faster than Ei, but not Minato.



> I can't see why he can't just  or kill him with Tenkyū
> Alternatively he could use  to blow himself up and take out the Raikage with him.



Those attacks are nothing to RCM.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 3, 2016)

I realy dont understand why Ei's speed is so overrated. He dodged Amaterasu? Great. Hachibi blocked Amaterasu with his tentacle. And Edo Madara easily blocked V2 Ei's punch point blank. He could deal some problems to KCM Naruto with his V1? Cool. So what? Compare to what Tobirama has done, that is pathetic. What else? Reflexes on par with those of alive base Minato? Cool. Tobirama's reflexes were faster than KCM Minato's, according to their performances against Juubito. 

Ei wank is strong with this thread.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 3, 2016)

> Sorry, I got mixed up. I do think that Tobirama's faster than Ei, but not Minato.



Tobirama is faster than both Ei and Minato. In fact, he demonstrated faster movement speed and reflexes than KCM Minato during their confrontation with Juubito.



> Those attacks are nothing to RCM.



Tobirama can trick Ei and exhaust him to the point when there will be no RCM.


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## Dr. White (Jan 3, 2016)

war Arc feats are a bit crazy though to the multiple factors and people particpating vs single villains. I think Tobirama has a marginal advantage in reaction speeds due to sensing. The shushin stuff is completely unreliable because of translations errors, and FTG obvy goes to Minato. So I see them as pretty equal with Minato having edge in FTG, DC, and overall hax thanks to Fuinjutsu.


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## TobiramaSS (Jan 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Those attacks are nothing to RCM.


Then I guess it's a draw then. Tobirama can't kill Ay and Ay can't touch Tobirama. 
If it comes to who can outlast the other, then Tobirama still wins with his .
Though Tobirama could also possibly use Fūton to neutralize Ay's RCM.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 3, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> Then I guess it's a draw then. Tobirama can't kill Ay and Ay can't touch Tobirama.
> If it comes to who can outlast the other, then Tobirama still wins with his .
> Though Tobirama could also possibly use Fūton to neutralize Ay's RCM.



This is what this fight comes down to. Do we allow Tobirama his fuuton or not. If we do, he wins. Simple as that


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## Rocky (Jan 3, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Hachibi blocked Amaterasu with his tentacle.



I don't know about that. Even if he had, blocking something from fifty meters away is significantly less impressive than dodging it from point-blank range.



StarWanderer said:


> Edo Madara easily blocked V2 Ei's punch point blank.



This is not point blank distance. [1] 



StarWanderer said:


> He could deal some problems to KCM Naruto with his V1? Cool. So what? Compare to what Tobirama has done, that is pathetic.



Tobirama hasn't intercepted the Body Flicker Technique of anybody like KCM Naruto with sheer speed... 



StarWanderer said:


> Tobirama's reflexes were faster than KCM Minato's, according to their performances against Juubito.



Teleporting to a orb that Minato was already reaching for does not make him more reflexive.



			
				SC said:
			
		

> This is what this fight comes down to. Do we allow Tobirama his fuuton or not. If we do, he wins. Simple as that



Allowing him wind release doesn't mean that he's actually good enough at it to overcome Raikage's utilization of raiton. Hell, he may not have anything strong enough to deal meaningful damage to A _without_ the armor, let alone with it.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 3, 2016)

The distance is irrelevant as Amaterasu literally spawns directly on it's target. The Hachibi reacted to the ignition of the flames much like Raikage did.


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## Rocky (Jan 3, 2016)

I see no fire on the Hachibi until it is screaming.  I see fire on A before he moves.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I see no fire on the Hachibi until it is screaming.  I see fire on A before he moves.



 So you think Hachibi preempted Sasuke's Amaterasu by raising his tentacles in advance despite B having no sensory feats?

 I will admit, Sasuke was very inefficient in using Amaterasu which is likely why Hachibi did react to the spawning of the flames in the first place.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 3, 2016)

> I don't know about that. Even if he had, blocking something from fifty meters away is significantly less impressive than dodging it from point-blank range.





Raikage never, ever, dodged Amaterasu from point-blank range.



> This is not point blank distance.



This is:



He started to move his hands only when Ei's fist was few inches from his face.



> Tobirama hasn't intercepted the Body Flicker Technique of anybody like KCM Naruto with sheer speed...



What Juubito used against Tobirama?



Shunshin, obviously.

What else, besides Truthseeker, Juubito used against Tobirama? 

Striking speed, obviously.

What Tobirama managed to do in response to that?

This:



And judging from scans, he did that with the hand which was destroyed by the truthseeker. That eans he tagged Juubito before Juubito hit him with Truthseeker, thanks to Tobirama's movement speed and reflexes.

What speed feat does Ei have that is even remotely close to that?

None. 

Are we done here, Rocky?



> Teleporting to a orb that Minato was already reaching for does not make him more reflexive.



That feat proves his Shunshin is faster than KCM Minato's movement speed. But that does not matter, realy.

KCM Minato had an opportunity to hit Juubito when he was in a close distance with him, but he did nothing and lost his arm. Tobirama at least managed to mark him.


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## Rocky (Jan 3, 2016)

He didn't "raise his tentacles in advance." He was charging towards them and he was suddenly on fire. What would blocking with a tentacle accomplish when the fire would just spread to the rest of his body like it did two pages later? [1]


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## StarWanderer (Jan 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I see no fire on the Hachibi until it is screaming.  I see fire on A before he moves.



If there was Amaterasu on Ei's V2 chest armor, he would have died because he has no way of putting it out. That's why he lost his arm.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> He didn't "raise his tentacles in advance." He was charging towards them and he was suddenly on fire. What would blocking with a tentacle accomplish when the fire would just spread to the rest of his body like it did two pages later? [1]



Kinda reflex - putting his tentacle in the way of enemy's attack. The fact is - Hachibi reacted to Amaterasu and blocked it, although it was pointless.


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## Rocky (Jan 3, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Raikage never, ever, dodged Amaterasu from point-blank range.



[1]



StarWanderer said:


> He started to move his hands only when Ei's fist was few inches from his face.



Which means he barely blocked from the distance A attacked from. Google the word "barely" before you reply this time, please. 



StarWanderer said:


> What Juubito used against Tobirama? Shunshin, obviously.



No, not "obviously." Shunshin does not usually involve making & shaping truth-seekers, but whatever. 



StarWanderer said:


> [Tobirama] tagged Juubito before Juubito hit him with Truthseeker, thanks to Tobirama's movement speed and reflexes.



He got lopped in half. 



StarWanderer said:


> What speed feat does Ei have that is even remotely close to that?



I would think that it takes higher speed to move out of the way of a point-blank Amaterasu as it forms onto your chest then it does to extend your arm as Obito runs you the fuck over from a dozen meters away....



StarWanderer said:


> KCM Minato had an opportunity to hit Juubito when he was in a close distance with him, but he did nothing and lost his arm. Tobirama at least managed to mark him.





Minato activated Hiraishin to evade a point-blank counter attack. He lost an arm. Tobirama lost half of his fucking body when Obito attacked him from a further distance, and all he had to do was raise his arm, not activate an S-Rank ninjutsu...


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 3, 2016)

Rocky, Tobirama placed a Hiraishin mark which is different from tags. You can't toss a Hiraishin mark, so he had to tag Juubito to place the actual marking on Juubito's body. Therefore, he tagged him before he got blitzed.

 Then, he proceeded to place tags all over Juubito's body before KCM Minato could detect it.


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## Rocky (Jan 3, 2016)

Yeah, he reached up and traded "hits" as Obito tore him in half. Forget KCM, how does that make him faster than _base_ Minato?


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Yeah, he reached up and traded "hits" as Obito tore him in half. Forget KCM, how does that make him faster than _base_ Minato?



 No, he tagged Juubito before he tore him in half unless he used his left arm to physically tag him even though that arm was the farther away from Juubito's body.

 Tobirama was taking advantage of his Edo Tensei body and still placed seals faster than KCM Minato could perceive. 

 Let me know when KCM Minato can physically touch and place tags on Juubito because Tobirama was the one getting all physical with Juubito, not Minato () and that was shown with Naruto and Sasuke's Enton + FRS combo used against Juubito.


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## Rocky (Jan 3, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> No, he tagged Juubito before he tore him in half



I know. Obito ran towards them, and Tobirama reached out and tapped him a moment before Obito tore him in two.



UchihaX28 said:


> Tobirama was taking advantage of his Edo Tensei body and still placed seals faster than KCM Minato could perceive.



He would have seen Tobirama reach out (unless he was distracted by Obito), but he wouldn't have seen the symbol form. It's, like, pretty small. And hidden in Obito's armpit.  



UchihaX28 said:


> Let me know when KCM Minato can physically touch and place tags on Juubito.



Why would that be so difficult for him? Obito wasn't trying to _dodge _Tobirama. He was in the process of tossing Tobirama's salad.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I know. Obito ran towards them, and Tobirama reached out and tapped him a moment before Obito tore him in two.



 So Tobirama could react to his Shunshin while EMS Sasuke, KCM Naruto, and KCM Minato couldn't even see what was happening.





> He would have seen Tobirama reach out (unless he was distracted by Obito), but he wouldn't have seen the symbol form. It's, like, pretty small. And hidden in Obito's armpit.



 Tobirama commanded Minato to warp while Minato stood there dumbfounded until he noticed the tags placed on Juubito. He had no idea what was going on.





> Why would that be so difficult for him? Obito wasn't trying to _dodge _Tobirama. He was in the process of tossing Tobirama's salad.



 Because Minato got his arm chopped off and got tagged by a Gudoudama before he could even warp? There's a reason why Minato allowed Tobirama to get behind Juubito to enable Naruto and Sasuke to use their combination.


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## Rocky (Jan 3, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> So Tobirama could react to his Shunshin while EMS Sasuke, KCM Naruto, and KCM Minato couldn't even see what was happening.



Naruto is debatable, the others didn't appear to have any issues. No "!!?" or anything like that. Even Hiruzen seemed to be fine.



UchihaX28 said:


> Tobirama commanded Minato to warp while Minato stood there dumbfounded until he noticed the tags placed on Juubito. He had no idea what was going on.



Tobirama told him to "scram!", and he went "!". He had no knowledge on the multiplying explosive note technique, so a surprised reaction is, well, no surprise...



UchihaX28 said:


> Because Minato got his arm chopped off and got tagged by a Gudoudama before he could even warp?



I'd say that it's a non-comparable situation. 


Tobirama faced mindless Obito; Minato faced Jesusbito. 
Tobirama was struck from a distance; Minato was struck point-blank.
Tobirama was just standing there; Minato was busy attacking Jesusbito himself.
Tobirama only had to tap Obito as he was sliced in two; Minato had to use ftg to avoid being sliced in two.



UchihaX28 said:


> There's a reason why Minato allowed Tobirama to get behind Juubito to enable Naruto and Sasuke to use their combination.



Yeah: Tobirama was the one with the mark on Obito. It didn't really matter which one of them did what, though, because they both had to warp at the same time.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 3, 2016)

> [1]



That's not a point-blank distance.



> Which means he barely blocked from the distance A attacked from. Google the word "barely" before you reply this time, please.



Which means he easily blocked V2 Ei's punch. Ei moved to him and, when Ei's fist was few inches from Madara's face, Madara was fast enough to put up his hands in order to block. He countered Ei's V2 without any trouble at all. Plus, he was busy dodging Mei's Lava Release.



> No, not "obviously." Shunshin does not usually involve making & shaping truth-seekers, but whatever.



He used Shunshin, just like Itachi used Shunshin against Kurenai, for example. 

And he made that Truthseeker prior to his attack.



> He got lopped in half.



KCM Minato got his hand torn off and couldnt do anything at all, while Tobirama managed to mark him. 



> I would think that it takes higher speed to move out of the way of a point-blank Amaterasu as it forms onto your chest then it does to extend your arm as Obito runs you the fuck over from a dozen meters away....



If it formed on Ei's chest, he would have died right there. Because, as i mentioned before, he has no way of putting it out. He cut off his own arm in order to get rid of Amaterasu. 

Also, Juubito >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amaterasu in terms of speed, obviously.



> Minato activated Hiraishin to evade a point-blank counter attack. He lost an arm. Tobirama lost half of his fucking body when Obito attacked him from a further distance, and all he had to do was raise his arm, not activate an S-Rank ninjutsu...



1. Juubito havent used the same Truthseeker against KCM Minato. If there was a Truthseeker in Juubito's hand, KCM Minato would have been killed most likely.

2. Tobirama didnt try to dodge Juubito because he wanted to use Gibakufuda.

3. Tobirama marked Juubito, KCM Minato did nothing at all.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 3, 2016)

> Why would that be so difficult for him? Obito wasn't trying to dodge Tobirama. He was in the process of tossing Tobirama's salad.



Tobirama marked him with the hand which was later destroyed by Juubito.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Naruto is debatable, the others didn't appear to have any issues. No "!!?" or anything like that. Even Hiruzen seemed to be fine.



 Each had Shocked Expressions and KCM Minato didn't comment on Juubito's speed until after Tobirama was blitzed.



> Tobirama told him to "scram!", and he went "!". He had no knowledge on the multiplying explosive note technique, so a surprised reaction is, well, no surprise...



 Minato questioned why because he didn't see the tags at all. His shocked expression with the panel coming afterwards that displayed all of those tags suggests it.

 Hell, Minato didn't even prepare to jump until after Hashirama reacted to Tobirama's commands. Maybe Minato was too slow to act after all? 





> I'd say that it's a non-comparable situation.
> 
> 
> Tobirama faced mindless Obito; Minato faced Jesusbito.
> ...



 There's no difference in speed and power between Mindless Juubito and Jesusbito.

 Tobirama did react to Juubito point-blank. Him placing a Hiraishin seal on Juubito the instant before Juubito slices through him requires proper timing. Minato at that same distance, did nothing, couldn't even mentally react until Juubito sliced his arm off and tagged a Gudoudama to his body.




> Yeah: Tobirama was the one with the mark on Obito. It didn't really matter which one of them did what, though, because they both had to warp at the same time.



 Your right, I realized I derped after I posted it.

 I concede.


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## Trojan (Jan 3, 2016)

> There's no difference in speed and power between Mindless Juubito and Jesusbito.





Retard form obito had 2 Gedu-Damas. His power became FIFE times greater and the number increased
to 10! 

Do you also think KCM Naruto and BM Narudo is the same!


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 3, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Retard form obito had 2 Gedu-Damas. His power became FIFE times greater and the number increased
> to 10!



 Obito can't wield 10 TSB, first of all.

 Second of all, Juubito's increased usage of TSB is due to having greater control over Yin-Yang which is why he could also apply Onmyoudon afterwards.


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## Rocky (Jan 3, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Each had Shocked Expressions and KCM Minato didn't comment on Juubito's speed until after Tobirama was blitzed.



You shouldn't need me to tell you this, but...


"Shocked" expressions do not mean they were unable to see what happened.
Minato commenting after Obito's attack does not mean he was unable to see what happened.



UchihaX28 said:


> Minato questioned why because he didn't see the tags at all.



There was no "question." He expressed surprise ("!") when Tobirama screamed at him, but that's understandable because _Tobirama was in fucking half._ 



UchihaX28 said:


> There's no difference in speed and power between Mindless Juubito and Jesusbito.



That's debatable, but with a change in appearance and the addition of more tsbs, I'm thinking he went through a general increase in power there. 

I'm not saying it was some major speed increase, but it's worth noting. 



UchihaX28 said:


> Tobirama did react to Juubito point-blank. Him placing a Hiraishin seal on Juubito the instant before Juubito slices through him requires proper timing. Minato at that same distance, did nothing, couldn't even mentally react until Juubito sliced his arm off and tagged a Gudoudama to his body.



If Obito takes off from here, Tobirama has time to get over his surprise and prepare to trade hits while Obito closes the distance. Minato had _alot_ less time with Obito being so close, and he had to do more than just extend his arm. He actually had to teleport away.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> He expressed surprise ("!") when Tobirama screamed at him, but that's understandable because _Tobirama was in fucking half._



Dat Senju power.


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## Trojan (Jan 3, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Obito can't wield 10 TSB, first of all.
> 
> Second of all, Juubito's increased usage of TSB is due to having greater control over Yin-Yang which is why he could also apply Onmyoudon afterwards.



- There was nothing behind his back either. 
- Which means greater power, genius. Just like how Narudo's speed increased after he gained control over his chakra. KCM Naruto for example was slower than V1 A, and then he became faster than V2 A. Please try to open your mind a little at least and apply some logic.  

You tried to avoid the comparison between KCM Naruto and BM Naruto because you know what you think about JJ Obito makes no sense.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 4, 2016)

> That's debatable, but with a change in appearance and the addition of more tsbs, I'm thinking he went through a general increase in power there.
> 
> I'm not saying it was some major speed increase, but it's worth noting.



The exact same chakra = the exact same level of speed and physical power. Mindless Juubito is as fast as non-mindless Juubito until you can provide a proof he is not. 



> If Obito takes off from here, Tobirama has time to get over his surprise and prepare to trade hits while Obito closes the distance. Minato had alot less time with Obito being so close, and he had to do more than just extend his arm. He actually had to teleport away.



Teleporting away requires mental activation. If KCM Minato had such an impressive reaction speed, comparable to that of Tobirama, he would have teleported away before Juubito torn off his arm. Tobirama marked Juubito before he torn half of his body to peaces. If he didnt want to use Gibakufuda, if he wanted to teleport away - he would have teleported away.


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## Rocky (Jan 4, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> If KCM Minato had such an impressive reaction speed, comparable to that of Tobirama, he would have teleported away before Juubito torn off his arm



Obito attacked Minato from point-blank (with his hand, mind you), and Minato reacted with Hiraishin, losing an arm before he could jump. Obito attacked Tobirama from a distance (with a shaped truth-seeker), and Tobirama reacted by raising his arm as he was torn in half. Doesn't seem like Minato's slower to me...



StarWanderer said:


> If [Tobirama] didnt want to use Gibakufuda, if he wanted to teleport away - he would have teleported away.



Prove it then, because I don't know why using the S-Rank Hiraishin would be easier than just raising your arm.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 4, 2016)

> Obito attacked Minato from point-blank (with his hand, mind you), and Minato reacted with Hiraishin, losing an arm before he could jump. Obito attacked Tobirama from a distance (with a shaped truth-seeker), and Tobirama reacted by raising his arm as he was torn in half. Doesn't seem like Minato's slower to me...



He also marked Juubito before Juubito tagged him, as soon as Juubito was in a close enough distance. 



> Prove it then, because I don't know why using the S-Rank Hiraishin would be easier than just raising your arm.



Hiraishin requires mental activation. If Tobirama could tag Juubito before Juubito tagged him, then he was, for sure, capable of teleporting away.

Anyway, this thread is not about KCM Minato - it is about Ei. The speed gap between Ei and Tobirama is obvious and it is very huge.


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