# Confirmed: Madara was Kaguya's pawn all along



## celebrei (Apr 16, 2014)

Latest chapter proved that Madara was nothing more than Kaguya's unwitting pawn all this time: 



Kaguya would've just taken over even if Madara was able to make the tree's flower bloom, Madara was being used from the start, just like he used Obito who in turn used Nagato.


----------



## mlc818 (Apr 16, 2014)

Pretty much.  Madara was already one of the main "pawns" of the Uchiha hate and this whole cycle, though, so it doesn't change too much about him.  It just makes it much more likely that he'll lose himself to Kaguya, rather than a mindless Juubi. (though that seemed likely after Obito had overcome a mindless Juubi, and pretty obvious once Kaguya was introduced as some super powerful past villain who was partially responsible for everything)


----------



## fakkiha (Apr 16, 2014)

Kaguya's Man is Madara.

 She wouldnt request anyone else to become one with.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Apr 16, 2014)

Except, you know, he did everything on his own until this chapter.

Try again.


----------



## Axl Low (Apr 16, 2014)

byakugam final villian incoming


----------



## spiritmight (Apr 16, 2014)

The more we learn about Kaguya, the more I support her as FV.

She was cold, man.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Apr 16, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> The more we learn about Kaguya, the more I support her as FV.
> 
> She was cold, man.



So you want a "character" who came out of nowhere as the FV?  Okay.


----------



## Kyuubi Naruto (Apr 16, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> The more we learn about Kaguya, the more I support her as FV.
> 
> She was cold, man.



Kaguya's just ruthless. 

I still think Sasuke will be FV but I approve of her being the last major "villain". She came, she conquered, ruled with an iron fist and now she's here bossing Madara around. She was the strongest entity known in the Narutoverse and beyond that she's just mysterious. 

We never found out what happened with Kaguya because Kishi will revisit it later when she returns. We  also we never found out where she came from. Kishi has set it up perfectly. Madara is truly just a pawn exactly like Obito was to him. 

I love it.


----------



## Kickflip Uzumaki (Apr 16, 2014)

Yeah, it would seem so.

Byakugan > Madara in the end. Who would've thought?


----------



## Axl Low (Apr 16, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> So you want a "character" who came out of nowhere as the FV?  Okay.



Yes
we do
why?
because kishi has admitted on many ocassions that he was fucked up with madara

ranging from not knowing what eh was going to do with him
to not knowing how he was going to take him out 

its abotu time we got a quality villian and not for nothing

kaguya is ruthless and all powerful 
everything madara has failed to be
whetehr fighting shodai in the valley or ninja army present day 

and has a link to kushina naruto as well as hyuugas and uchihas
she is the all mother of shinobi and she literally shaped the sinobi world to be a world of war deception and fear

SO yes
I want to meet the woman who fucked everything up
so she can fuck everyone up 
if jsut for a little while


----------



## Kyuubi Naruto (Apr 16, 2014)

Axl Low said:


> Yes
> we do
> why?
> because kishi has admitted on many ocassions that he was fucked up with madara
> ...



It is also a sign of Kishi not really taking time with Madara's characters. No writer/artist says they don't know what they're going to do with something and mean it and expect us to think they care about it. If Kishi cared he'd constantly think about what he was going to do, I mean literally think about it until he's worked it out. He hasn't done that with Madara though hence his comment and hence Madara's strength has been bullshit for a while. You mean to tell us he couldn't think of another way for Madara to escape Gaara's jutsu than to use a Susanoo without eyes? 

He truly doesn't care about that section. It is also a reason why Obito as a character has seemed to be more complete than Madara who's basically an overpowered brute. 

I gladly accept Kaguya returning to the manga.


----------



## MS81 (Apr 16, 2014)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Kaguya's just ruthless.
> 
> I still think Sasuke will be FV but I approve of her being the last major "villain". She came, she conquered, ruled with an iron fist and now she's here bossing Madara around. She was the strongest entity known in the Narutoverse and beyond that she's just mysterious.
> 
> ...



Exactly she will be the last villain.


----------



## Deatz (Apr 16, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> The more we learn about Kaguya, the more I support her as FV.
> 
> She was cold, man.


Ahahaha, look at you, thinking someone could actually be a cold-hearted villain in this manga. Rookie mistake. Soon we'll get a heartfelt backstory (AKA "hello again, flashbacks") about how Kaguya moved to ninja earth from the moon and everyone, like, picked on her and stuff for having horns and creepy eyes, so she became "evil". The Naruto manga has been forcing the message of "everyone is inherently good, but can choose the wrong path" for a long time.


----------



## CuteJuubi (Apr 16, 2014)

Juubi/Kaguya for FV


----------



## Azula (Apr 16, 2014)

a woman manipulating madara and snatching the final villian seat


----------



## Axl Low (Apr 16, 2014)

> Kaguya you magnificent bastard!
> I read your book!



~Naruto


----------



## Chaelius (Apr 16, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> So you want a "character" who came out of nowhere as the FV?  Okay.



Them JRPG tropes.


----------



## Axl Low (Apr 16, 2014)

Chaelius said:


> Them JRPG tropes.



well if we think about it and she is sealed into the moon then technically she has been around since long before most of these characters we know

imprisoned for years/centuries watching and eventually manipulating her way to freedom


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 16, 2014)

Since when did kaguya take over Madara's mind? Or manipulate him?

I see it more as how when uub and buu became majuub when they fused. Ya' know


----------



## BlinkST (Apr 16, 2014)

We're bringing Faildara back for 2015:ignoramus


----------



## CuteJuubi (Apr 16, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Since when did kaguya take over Madara's mind? Or manipulate him?
> 
> I see it more as how when uub and buu became majuub when they fused. Ya' know



It is obvious that this entity (Kaguya/Juubi) will be taking the lead henceforth, and that Madara will be used by this entity as its vessel.


----------



## Kickflip Uzumaki (Apr 16, 2014)

You know what'd be great? If Zetsu reveals he's Kaguya's earthly agent or some shit and it's all been a big, harebrained scheme by Kaguya to get revenge on Haggy and the people of earth.


----------



## CuteJuubi (Apr 16, 2014)

Kickflip Uzumaki said:


> You know what'd be great? If Zetsu reveals he's Kaguya's earthly agent or some shit and it's all been a big, harebrained scheme by Kaguya to get revenge on Haggy and the people of earth.



It's entirely possible seeing Madara insult him as a failed experiment, this could be payback.


----------



## MangaR (Apr 16, 2014)

*The King knows who the power *hores*

Kaguya (wanted to bring piece at the start but ending up controlling humans as the best solution)
|
Madara (mentally influenced to do what Kaguya wants)
|
Obito (brainwashed by Madara)
|
Pain (brainwashed didn't work but still a pawn of Obito)
|
Akatsuki (money, killing, sex ,etc just give it all to them they don't give a shit about anything else. Non brainwashed bastards!)

Each link has less control, the further from Kaguya legacy you are the more free will you have.


----------



## Descent of the Lion (Apr 16, 2014)

Wait, does this mean that Juubi's aggression is because Kaguya's soul is in it?


----------



## Rosi (Apr 16, 2014)

She is some woman


----------



## DeK3iDE (Apr 16, 2014)

wtf? All that was shown was someone who is probably Kaguya telling Madara to absorb the power of the tree. There isn't shit that says she has been manipulating Madara. Another lel thread brought to you by celebrei


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 16, 2014)

CuteJuubi said:


> It is obvious that this entity (Kaguya/Juubi) will be taking the lead henceforth, and that Madara will be used by this entity as its vessel.



Doubt it. 

But if that happens, prepare for Madara to take the same route as obito.


----------



## ZiBi21 (Apr 16, 2014)

I wouldnt be supprised if kaguya in past absorbed 10tails but its anger and hatered corrupted her and she was the one that got absorbed by it... so her soul is stuck inside 10tails seeking more power (ethernal genjutsu ->everyone with chakra goes to sleep-> chakra drained and gathers in one spot to create another fruit... and maybe that will make the juubi calm down and kaguyas sould will be free)

madara had 10tails absorbed... and when the tree was about to fall it mostly spoke to madara to absorb it too... Hogoromo said that theri mother was seaking more power and eventually it corrupted her.... here its the same seeking for more power... so she says to absorb the tree to get more power (maybe with doing that her soul parts came together)


So generally she was manipulating madara to do this and seek power.... or maybe kaguya got that 3rd juubi eye after eating the fruit.... so the one talking is not kaguya but the 10tails itself  (via that rinnegan eye) who wants this plan to work in order to bring the fruit back

But still I already can see it that at the end naruto will meet kaguya in sub-space to have some talk... naruto will use his TnJ maybe show some love as a hug (since she might be angry like he was as kid that everyone called him a monster/demon... kaguya might have felt the same and opposite to naruto who won his dark part... she ended up beign consumed by it)


----------



## PikaCheeka (Apr 16, 2014)

How the hell can you people pretend that she was manipulating Madara all along when she was not even existent on this earth until the shinji tree was made? Even if you want to pretend she was in the Gedo, Madara had these plans before the Gedo was on earth.

He obviously did everything himself. The RS _explained _this over the last few weeks.


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 16, 2014)

ZiBi21 said:


> I wouldnt be supprised if kaguya in past absorbed 10tails but its anger and hatered corrupted her and she was the one that got absorbed by it... so her soul is stuck inside 10tails seeking more power (ethernal genjutsu ->everyone with chakra goes to sleep-> chakra drained and gathers in one spot to create another fruit... and maybe that will make the juubi calm down and kaguyas sould will be free)
> 
> madara had 10tails absorbed... and when the tree was about to fall it mostly spoke to madara to absorb it too... Hogoromo said that theri mother was seaking more power and eventually it corrupted her.... here its the same seeking for more power... so she says to absorb the tree to get more power (maybe with doing that her soul parts came together)
> 
> ...



That'll be great. Just see naruto giving kaguya love and affection by giving her a hug while knowing the kind of struggle she went though.,


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 16, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> How the hell can you people pretend that she was manipulating Madara all along when she was not even existent on this earth until the shinji tree was made? Even if you want to pretend she was in the Gedo, Madara had these plans before the Gedo was on earth.
> 
> He obviously did everything himself. The RS _explained _this over the last few weeks.



They want Madara to fall so bad, that's all it is.

Dude's been soloing ever since he got revived.


----------



## Tony Lou (Apr 16, 2014)

Nothing is confirmed at this point.

It's heavily hinted that she'll take the opportunity to possess his body.

As for actually being a mentor of sorts, there will only be proof if we get a flashback of her talking to Madara back then.


----------



## mlc818 (Apr 16, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> How the hell can you people pretend that she was manipulating Madara all along when she was not even existent on this earth until the shinji tree was made? Even if you want to pretend she was in the Gedo, Madara had these plans before the Gedo was on earth.
> 
> He obviously did everything himself. The RS _explained _this over the last few weeks.



Ashura and Indra still have an influence on the world.  So, while they presumably weren't influencing Naruto and Sasuke consciously, we know that Madara escaped that cycle when he gained Rinnegan.  Hagoromo apparently wasn't influencing him, but we don't know that Kaguya wasn't.

Considering that Madara may have all but brought Kaguya and the Juubi back to life, her influencing Madara isn't that far fetched when Hashi, Madara, Naruto, and Sasuke have already inherited spiritual abilities and personal characteristics.


----------



## Datakim (Apr 16, 2014)

I find it unlikely that Madara was a pawn all along. Everything suggests he got the knowledge to awaken the rinnegan from the tablet. It is possible however, that if Kaguya is somehow in the tree/gedo mazo, that she might have influenced Madara towards the Infinite Tsukuyomi. However if so, that only happened after Madara awakened the rinnegan, summoned the statue and linked with the thing (as a very old man).

I will say however that absorbing the tree will likely prove a massive mistake from Madara. I mean look at this page: the seal 

Two byakugan eyes in normal place and a sharinnegan on the forehead. Thats obviously Kaguya speaking to Madara from inside his mind. I think Madara will find that Shinju will suddenly not be so easily controlled anymore, and when the time comes, it will do its best to forcibly possess him. Kaguya does not strike me as someone who would be willing to share power.


----------



## Shanks (Apr 16, 2014)

Next thing we know, Kaguya's husband landed on earth and Kaguya turned out to be another pawn.


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 16, 2014)

kaguya is the pawn here. madara is using her power as naruto has been using the kyuubi's lol

she's happy to see someone who is just like her


----------



## Maunten (Apr 16, 2014)

It's pretty clear that the brothers sealed kaguya, it's possible they sealed her within the Juubi in order to subdue it, then divided the Juubi up, and now it's time two brothers (Sauce and Nard) to deal with her for the last time.


----------



## Za Fuuru (Apr 16, 2014)

This whole story doesn't make sense anymore, it's farfetched as hell now


----------



## Raventhal (Apr 16, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> How the hell can you people pretend that she was manipulating Madara all along when she was not even existent on this earth until the shinji tree was made? Even if you want to pretend she was in the Gedo, Madara had these plans before the Gedo was on earth.
> 
> He obviously did everything himself. The RS _explained _this over the last few weeks.



Huh? There has been theories that the Juubi was the cause of the Uchiha curse of hatred and has been trying to manipulate its return for a while.  It was dismissed because it was said to be mindless but now it talks.  For all we know Kayuga could be the Juubi.  The Sage did say that she used that the eye and became known as a demon.  We know the Juubi is after chakra and the MEP is about connection everyone's charka.


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 16, 2014)

^ the MEP is to eliminate all chakra and fuse into 1 person. not to connect


----------



## Shanks (Apr 16, 2014)

Za Fuuru said:


> This whole story doesn't make sense anymore, it's farfetched as hell now



Eh well... some of us are just here to see the ending of the story after such a long time.


----------



## Raventhal (Apr 16, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> ^ the MEP is to eliminate all chakra and fuse into 1 person. not to connect



No, it connections everyone to the tree like the Matrix and feeds the fruit.  If it took the chakra it would kill them.  Thing is if Kaguya seems to want it to happen which also happens to be the goal of the Juubi getting its chakra back.  Looking like Kaguya who was known as a demon was the 10 tails and like the Sage said sealing the Juubi was for his mothers sin.


----------



## Algol (Apr 16, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> Except, you know, he did everything on his own until this chapter.
> 
> Try again.



His own... and Obito/Kabuto's help too.

On topic: I'm liking the idea of a Kaguya/Madara fusion and the moon's eye plan's real purpose being something more sinister that Kaguya was manipulative about.


----------



## Nathan Copeland (Apr 16, 2014)

Lord Madara is no one's pawn

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m0IUJS-LOY[/YOUTUBE]

the god of shinobi


----------



## Scarlet Ammo (Apr 16, 2014)

Rooting for Kaguya in case she's a death god 

wooo kaguya


----------



## Mariko (Apr 16, 2014)

No, it was just cooperation: Madara and the Holy Tree were fucked so the second asked the first to fuse so they could both survive...


----------



## MisterJB (Apr 16, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> Except, you know, he did everything on his own until this chapter.
> 
> Try again.


Just like Obito did everything on his own since Madara died. Doesn't mean he wasn't unwittingly fulfilling Madara's designs or that Madara didn't leave countermeasures in place (Zetsu) to ensure everything went according to his plans.
And now, there's a good chance that Kaguya had been doing the same to Madara all along. Hey, maybe she was the one who left the Uchiha Stone Tablet behind.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Apr 16, 2014)

>All along
>Tree didn't even exist 'til AFTER Madara came about
>Only this chapter did he 'absorb'

>We still don't know if Madara is using HER power Akin to Naruto using Ashura's.
>People naturally reaching and assuming she's in charge.

Let's wait 'til we know more, shall we?.


----------



## SharkBomb 4 (Apr 16, 2014)

MangaR said:


> Kaguya (wanted to bring piece at the start but ending up controlling humans as the best solution)
> |
> Madara (mentally influenced to do what Kaguya wants)
> |
> ...



More like:

Kaguya (Had a goal to bring eternal peace, supports someone years later with the same ambitions)
|
Madara (Believes Infinite Tsukuyomi is the only way, needed someone else to old age, died with the expectation that he gets revived)
|
Obito (inherited Madara's plans with the expectation that he revives him, but he never intended to and worked for himself. First attempt to control him failed, second only worked to the efforts of the heroes)
|
Pain (Obito's pawn)
|
Akatsuki (people hired to do a job)

People are jumping the gun here. A pawn is a character that is fooled/manipulated into doing something for someone else that they unwittingly/unwillingly complied with. Madara is working to accomplish the same things as Kaguya, but that doesn't make him her pawn. Obito knew Madara was trying to manipulate him, worked for himself and beat Madara to becoming the JJ. The Akatsuki were just people doing a job. The only one who can be classified as a pawn is Pain as he was fooled from the start by Obito.

However, I say this now knowing it's very possible that Kishi pulls something with Kaguya suddenly taking control of Madara and getting revived or something. Who knows with Kishi.


----------



## Za Fuuru (Apr 16, 2014)

I think we are gonna get a huge flashback about this


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 16, 2014)

MisterJB said:


> His ideals which came about because he, and all Uchihas, have a mental disease called "The Curse of Hatred". He was genetically predisposed to it because of the sharingan.
> And who is at the root of the sharingan?



juubi/kaguya. which madara has made his bitch

madara will never be a manipulated pawn like obito, cross that out ur mind


----------



## MisterJB (Apr 16, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> juubi/kaguya. which madara has made his bitch
> 
> madara will never be a manipulated pawn like obito, cross that out ur mind


Madara was losing this chapter and Kaguya was like "Damn you, Noob. Just absorb the tree."

Maybe the reason Madara was able to achieve the Rikudou State with no difficulty while Obito was nearly torn apart by the Juubi was because, in Madara's case, Kaguya was willing.

Ok, that sounded wrong.


----------



## NW (Apr 16, 2014)

Funny how none of the four you mentioned used any of the others, OP.


----------



## Hayn (Apr 16, 2014)

As much as i dont really like Madara, i pray that Kishi dosn't make Kaguya the final villain. At least Madara is fairly interesting/deep. Kaguya would just be "I am very strong, i will make you listen to me" aka Naruto 2.0 but bad.


----------



## Raventhal (Apr 16, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> juubi/kaguya. which madara has made his bitch
> 
> madara will never be a manipulated pawn like obito, cross that out ur mind



Lol, Madara fans are in total denial.  Its possible that Madara is being played.  Kaguya just appearing isn't for show.  For all we know once the MEP is completed Kaguya/Juubi will be done with him to regain all the chakra.  I mean never in fiction history has the big bad been screwed over by the ultimate power. :amazed


----------



## iJutsu (Apr 16, 2014)

So because Madara gets all the powers he suddenly turns into a woman? All of this was just to get a sex change so Hashi will love him?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 16, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> So because Madara gets all the powers he suddenly turns into a woman? All of this was just to get a sex change so Hashi will love him?


Omg if only Ivankov was in Naruto all of this could have been avoided


----------



## celebrei (Apr 16, 2014)

BlinkST said:


> We're bringing Faildara back for 2015:ignoramus



Faildara is fail


----------



## StickaStick (Apr 16, 2014)

When did Faildara ever leave tbh


----------



## Kyrie Eleison (Apr 16, 2014)

The Format said:


> When did Faildara ever leave tbh



He took a brief vacation when Madara was revived but returned around the time Madara became the Juubi's new host.


----------



## DeK3iDE (Apr 16, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> How the hell can you people pretend that she was manipulating Madara all along when she was not even existent on this earth until the shinji tree was made? Even if you want to pretend she was in the Gedo, Madara had these plans before the Gedo was on earth.
> 
> He obviously did everything himself. The RS _explained _this over the last few weeks.


it's a symptom of fail reading comprehension + wishful thinking :ignoramus



Fiiction said:


> They want Madara to fall so bad, that's all it is.
> 
> Dude's been soloing  that ever since he got revived.


a lot of ppl are just too butthurt to admit this really. And the proof lies in the fact that if they're a fan of a relevant character, chances are great he has embarrassed them throughly somehow. It's gotten to the point where Naruto and Sasuke are all they have left to root for after everybody and everything else he blazed through with neg diff, and he's embarrassed them too 




Raventhal said:


> Lol, Madara fans are in total denial.  Its possible that Madara is being played.  Kaguya just appearing isn't for show.  For all we know once the MEP is completed Kaguya/Juubi will be done with him to regain all the chakra.  I mean never in fiction history has the big bad been screwed over by the ultimate power. :amazed


you really shouldn't generalize as if every Madara fan is of that opinion. As big a Madara mark as i am, i have 0 problems in acknowledging the possibility of her trying to play Madara considering Hagoromo likening the both of them to each other. Unlike other characters' fanbases, some of us actually don't mind having different opinions sometimes. 

That being said, isn't it also possible that it is what it looks like, and that ppl like yourself are just hoping and praying that she is playing him? And even if she is trying to play him, who is to say Madara won't be the one who ends up using her? Ppl have underestimated the strength of Madara's will enough times before, who are you or anyone else to say Madara can't beat her in a will contest?


----------



## Karyu Endan (Apr 16, 2014)

I just thought of something.

We still don't know how Madara survived his fight with Hashi at the Valley of the End.

We know the Juubi (and by extension Kaguya) was on the moon at the time.

We know Kaguya has the Byakugan, and is so powerful she once solo'd the entire planet with ease.

So it's no stretch of the imagination to assume Kaguya could witness the world's events play out from as far away as the moon.

We know, from Gaara's sand being directly controlled by his mother's spirit and Ashura's and Indra's chakra transmigrating, that a dead person's soul can remain in the living universe and interact with it in some form.

We know Izanagi allows one to cheat death, is based on Hagaromo's "Creation of All Things", and the power for Hagaromo to do such was inherited from Kaguya.

Perhaps, Kaguya's soul from within the Juubi managed to save Madara's life with Creation of All Things, since she had already witnessed him come up with the Moon Eye Plan and was banking on the plan succeeding, because it would result in her return... and Madara would have died before the plan could be enacted.

But that's only one possibility.


----------



## Shanks (Apr 16, 2014)

Karyu Endan said:


> I just thought of something.
> 
> We still don't know how Madara survived his fight with Hashi at the Valley of the End.
> 
> ...


Nice theory. I can see Madara having some internal discussion with her and a flashback soon enough.


----------



## Nathan Copeland (Apr 16, 2014)




----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 16, 2014)

So Kaguya its the Jubbi?

We are also pawns that help tell Dream - fuck you - for some unknown reason. :/


----------



## Raventhal (Apr 16, 2014)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> it's a symptom of fail reading comprehension + wishful thinking :ignoramus
> 
> a lot of ppl are just too butthurt to admit this really. And the proof lies in the fact that if they're a fan of a relevant character, chances are great he has embarrassed them throughly somehow. It's gotten to the point where Naruto and Sasuke are all they have left to root for after everybody and everything else he blazed through with neg diff, and he's embarrassed them too
> 
> ...



Actually, I'm more of the opinion that its more up in the air.  There is the possibility that its not Kaguya at all but just the Juubi conscious which Kaguya may look like because she ate the fruit.  

You just see some of the more diehard fans seem mad or exasperated that anyone question the Mighty Madara.  Kishi seems to have no issue with having someone behind someone ∞ .


----------



## overlordofnobodies (Apr 16, 2014)

MisterJB said:


> In that, you are wrong. I am a fan of both Madara and Obito for completely different reasons and the latter being manipulated by the former did not make me like both of them any less. I mean, my very first post on this thread was acknowledging how Obito was dancing to Madara's tune the whole time until he stole the two Bijuu's chackra from him.
> Likewise, Madara being manipulated by Kaguya would not diminish any of his accomplishments.
> 
> I am just calling it like I see them. Those marks combined with the Sharinnegan make it obvious that the voice Madara heard is Kaguya's and Madara's "I see...the Holy Tree itself..." imply that the Tree; who might be Kaguya herself; planned this whole thing from the get go so she could be ressurrected.
> ...



I think this is the most likely thing to happen. One reason for this is it is very hard for to see Naruto fighting a female. I mean let be real here. This is a japan manga. The main hero dont really fight girls. I cant remember one Jump manga where they have. All so see as Naruto and Sasuke just got a bless from the SOT6P. I can easy seeing Madara getting the same thing.


----------



## celebrei (Apr 16, 2014)

Kaguya> Madara


----------



## Karyu Endan (Apr 17, 2014)

overlordofnobodies said:


> I think this is the most likely thing to happen. One reason for this is it is very hard for to see Naruto fighting a female. I mean let be real here. This is a japan manga. The main hero dont really fight girls. I cant remember one Jump manga where they have. All so see as Naruto and Sasuke just got a bless from the SOT6P. I can easy seeing Madara getting the same thing.



Genre conventions have never stopped Kishi from pulling insane shit in the past. 

The only time Kishi's actually had editors step it and tell him invoke a certain trope was pre-series when they said that _Naruto_ as a series would be better if Naruto had a rival, which lead to the creation of Sasuke. And then Sasuke became less of a rival and more of a *deuteragonist* as time went on, so Kishi still wasn't playing _The Rival_ straight as his editors intended. 

Also, the tendency for the main hero not to fight women in Jump may indeed be a reason for Kishi to go in that direction, rather than avoid it; the final boss being female is unexpected given the genre, and having the final boss be female would provide a refreshing diversion from the norm. Kishi may have Naruto fight a woman as the final villain precisely *because* it hasn't been done all that often before.


----------



## Young Lord Minato (Apr 17, 2014)

I think it''s too son to declare him her pawn; it's possible that she's just connected to him now that the Tree's been cut down


----------



## Frosch (Apr 17, 2014)

We still haven't been shown what happened to Kaguya, Hagoromo told us nothing, just that the Shinju eventually got pissed that Kaguya ate from the fruit and wanted it's chakra back so it went around rampaging. I doubt she just quietly allowed her sons to inherit her reign of terror.

The Uchiha's hatred curse probably isn't Indra's fault but Kaguya's doing, maybe in an attempt to lead a uchiha into planning world domination and then sweeping in once this person achieves it. 



PikaCheeka said:


> So you want a "character" who came out of nowhere as the FV?  Okay.



Well first there was Pain, who was literally controlled by Nagato, who was manipulated by Obito, who was really being used by Madara, who probably was influenced by Kaguya without him knowing all along.


----------



## Nagato Sennin (Apr 17, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> So you want a "character" who came out of nowhere as the FV?  Okay.



Happens in video games all the time


----------



## NW (Apr 17, 2014)

Geijutsu said:


> Well first there was Pain, who was literally controlled by Nagato,


Nagato and Pain are one and the same. Nagato was moving, thinking, and talking through Yahiko's body, but he was still himself, and not a seperate person/character/villain.



> who was manipulated by Obito,


Not really. Nagato came to his own desicion. Obito just shared his views on the world with him. Sure, Obito never told him about Tsuki no Me, and planned to have him use Rinne Rebirth for some currently unkown reason, but Nagato had a change of heart and used his Rinne Rebirth technique to revive the villagers of Konoha, so really, he wasn't manipulated or used.



> who was really being used by Madara


Well, Obito was never going to revive Madara anyway, and Madara wouldn't even be here if not for Kabuto. It's unclear if Madara's little trump card would have even worked if Naruto and Sasuke hadn't defeated Obito.



> , who probably was influenced by Kaguya without him knowing all along.


On what basis? Just because she's only now giving him advice after he's become the jinchuriki of Ten Tails?


----------



## StickaStick (Apr 17, 2014)

Funniest thing I've seen in this thread is Obito being controlled by Mads. Let's see:

> Obito gets taught Uchiha kinjutsu, Rikudo abilities, and Inyouton jutsu by Mads

> Does shit on his own like Uchiha massacre and other stuff that had nothing to do with "Mads' plan"

> Had no intent of actually reviving Mads

> Beats Mads to becoming juubi jinchuuriki first

> Losses bijuu and is forced to used Rinne Tensei on Mads

> tricks Mads and takes the remaining bijuu that Naruto needed

(could be planning on destroying the other Rinnegan.)

What do we gather from this? Obito basically got taught all this shit while telling Mads "yeah, yeah we'll go along with your plan" and then proceeds to spit in Mads' face every chance he gets. He liked the idea of IT and basically said I'll take that thank you very much. If anything Obito used Mads and didn't fall for his garbage once.


----------



## NarutoShion4ever (Apr 17, 2014)

It is part of an annoying, yet existing pattern, so I can definitely see it happen.




MangaR said:


> Kaguya (wanted to bring piece at the start but ending up controlling humans as the best solution)
> |
> Madara (mentally influenced to do what Kaguya wants)
> |
> ...




Pain was controlled/manipulated by both Madara (rinnegan eyes) and Obito.

Obito was probably rinne tensei'd by Cave!Madara and had these black rods inserted by Cave!Madara too (brainwashed?).

Makes you wonder who manipulated Kaguya. 




ZiBi21 said:


> I wouldnt be supprised if kaguya in past absorbed 10tails but its anger and hatered corrupted her and she was the one that got absorbed by it... so her soul is stuck inside 10tails seeking more power (ethernal genjutsu ->everyone with chakra goes to sleep-> chakra drained and gathers in one spot to create another fruit... and maybe that will make the juubi calm down and kaguyas sould will be free)
> 
> madara had 10tails absorbed... and when the tree was about to fall it mostly spoke to madara to absorb it too... Hogoromo said that theri mother was seaking more power and eventually it corrupted her.... here its the same seeking for more power... so she says to absorb the tree to get more power (maybe with doing that her soul parts came together)
> 
> ...




Juubi = the one and only Kaguya Jinchuriki 

Wait...that makes Madara the current Kaguya Jinchuriki.




mlc818 said:


> Ashura and Indra still have an influence on the world.  So, while they presumably weren't influencing Naruto and Sasuke consciously, we know that Madara escaped that cycle when he gained Rinnegan.  Hagoromo apparently wasn't influencing him, but we don't know that Kaguya wasn't.
> 
> Considering that Madara may have all but brought Kaguya and the Juubi back to life, her influencing Madara isn't that far fetched when Hashi, Madara, Naruto, and Sasuke have already inherited spiritual abilities and personal characteristics.




Kaguya: I love it when a plan comes together! 




Karyu Endan said:


> I just thought of something.
> 
> We still don't know how Madara survived his fight with Hashi at the Valley of the End.
> 
> ...




Very true. Even though the manipulations make everything rather uninteresting.


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 17, 2014)

celebrei said:


> Kaguya> Madara



Madara > your fav.

If kaguya's your  fav , that's crazy.



Algol said:


> His own... and Obito/Kabuto's help too.
> 
> On topic: I'm liking the idea of a Kaguya/Madara fusion and the moon's eye plan's real purpose being something more sinister that Kaguya was manipulative about.



he basically did everything on his own. last time I remember , Madara beat all the bijuu , sealed them , and became the Juubi Jin.

Explain to me how obito helped? He basically stalled time and tried to ruin Madara's plan twice.

Kabuto revived him yeah, but Madara had other ways of being revived.


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Apr 17, 2014)

*Is Madara just a pawn of Kaguya?*

What do you think?


----------



## Lurko (Apr 17, 2014)

Yeah most likely.


----------



## takL (Apr 17, 2014)

when the thread title says confirmed! its always yet to be confirmed in the manga and tends to be proven wrong later.


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 17, 2014)

we'll just have to wait and see now won't we.


----------



## celebrei (Apr 17, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> we'll just have to wait and see now won't we.



You think that witch would willingly share her power to Madara like Hagoromo?  

Hagoromo SHARES power, Kaguya TAKES power, there's the difference.


----------



## Bruce Wayne (Apr 17, 2014)

Yes   .


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 17, 2014)

celebrei said:


> You think that witch would willingly share her power to Madara like Hagoromo?
> 
> Hagoromo SHARES power, Kaguya TAKES power, there's the difference.



You think that Madara would let her control him?

Madara USES people, He doesn't get USED, there's the difference.


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 17, 2014)

just like naruto/sasuke are pawns of rikudou right?

lol


----------



## Mateush (Apr 17, 2014)

Yes. [10char]


----------



## Kyuubi Naruto (Apr 17, 2014)

He is now but then again it seems every villain that isn't Oro ends up being a pawn to someone and even Oro worked under Pain for a bit.


----------



## Overhaul (Apr 17, 2014)

Madara's is no one's bitch,especially not a bitch's bitch.


----------



## Bruce Wayne (Apr 17, 2014)

Revy said:


> Madara's is no one's bitch,especially not a bitch's bitch.



He whores himself around for anyone who beats him.


----------



## Frosch (Apr 17, 2014)

I maintain that the Uchiha's curse of hatred is not Indra's spirit, but Kaguya and Indra was her first victim, so to speak. She would be pushing the easily corruptible Uchiha, specially Indra's incarnates, to attempt world domination and Madara's probably the one who has come the closest to fulfill her plan, just like Hagoromo has been patiently watching so has she, and now it's the right moment for her to resurface.


----------



## overlordofnobodies (Apr 17, 2014)

Karyu Endan said:


> Genre conventions have never stopped Kishi from pulling insane shit in the past.
> 
> The only time Kishi's actually had editors step it and tell him invoke a certain trope was pre-series when they said that _Naruto_ as a series would be better if Naruto had a rival, which lead to the creation of Sasuke. And then Sasuke became less of a rival and more of a *deuteragonist* as time went on, so Kishi still wasn't playing _The Rival_ straight as his editors intended.
> 
> Also, the tendency for the main hero not to fight women in Jump may indeed be a reason for Kishi to go in that direction, rather than avoid it; the final boss being female is unexpected given the genre, and having the final boss be female would provide a refreshing diversion from the norm. Kishi may have Naruto fight a woman as the final villain precisely *because* it hasn't been done all that often before.



Wait what??? Naruto is one of thwe most Genre conventions that I now of. I cant name one thing in this manga that I have not seen or read before. Be it in a TV show, manga or movie.

Kishi editor have step in a lot of time from what I have heard but I dont see why that matter for this topic.

That may be a good reason for Kishi to do it. That said I dont see him doing it for that reason a lone. First let think on how many female villain there have been. Tayuya, Karin, Temari ,Kin and Konan.

Right away I can take Karin Temari and Konan out do to them becoming more good guys then villains. So that leaves two. Both of them are from part one and are not worth of any note. All so think how Kishi have work with female in the first place. Winch is not very good. I mean saying the most powerful person in the world is female is one thing. Showing her doing something is another.


----------



## Edo Madara (Apr 17, 2014)

The Format said:


> What do we gather from this? Obito basically got taught all this shit while telling Mads "yeah, yeah we'll go along with your plan" and then proceeds to spit in Mads' face every chance he gets. He liked the idea of IT and basically said I'll take that thank you very much. If anything Obito used Mads and didn't fall for his garbage once.



So was Nagato who have his own agenda and just play along with Obito/Madara until he got TNJ.


----------



## Scarlet Ammo (Apr 17, 2014)

Infinite chain of pawns.

Akatsuki Servants < Akatsuki < Pain < Obito < Madara < Kaguya


----------



## king81992 (Apr 17, 2014)

If Madara was not Kaguya's pawn before,he will be pretty soon.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Apr 17, 2014)

Seeing as she was on the fucking moon for most of his life, no.

He's too developed a character to get trolled like that now.


----------



## RBL (Apr 17, 2014)

if this kaguya is the final villain she is going to get easily defeated by naruto's TNJ.

i wanted obito, orochimaru or hidan to be the final villan.

obito is not going to be fv anymore, hidan is still underground.

and orochimaru is not strong enough yet.

madara has been mentioned since the beggining of naruto, it'd be an insult for the readers, that a character that has just been introduced replace him.


----------



## Mateush (Apr 17, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> Seeing as she was on the fucking moon for most of his life, no.
> 
> He's too developed a character to get trolled like that now.



Where does it say she was on the moon?


----------



## Aazadan (Apr 17, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> Seeing as she was on the fucking moon for most of his life, no.
> 
> He's too developed a character to get trolled like that now.



He wasn't directly working for her or anything, but it's pretty clear now that she's going to use him.


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 17, 2014)

Aazadan said:


> He wasn't directly working for her or anything, but it's pretty clear now that she's going to use him.



madara is using her


----------



## Mateush (Apr 17, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> madara is using her



This logic applies only if Madara knew all it, but he doesn't. It's more like Kaguya is guiding him.


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 17, 2014)

Madara's plan was to become like kaguya all along

-Rikudou
-Jinchuriki
-Shinju fruit/tsukyuomi


----------



## Mateush (Apr 17, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> Madara's plan was to become like kaguya all along
> 
> -Rikudou
> -Jinchuriki
> -Shinju fruit/tsukyuomi



It may be his plan, but he didn't know how to get it. He needed Kaguya as help.


----------



## Toqtimur (Apr 17, 2014)

It makes me wonder why was Madara's transformation into the Juubi jin was effortless, whereas Obito had to really fight against it? Maybe the Juubi/Kaguya after gaining sentience inside of Obito decided to play along, with Madara and wait for a time to take him over.


----------



## Raventhal (Apr 17, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> Madara's plan was to become like kaguya all along
> 
> -Rikudou
> -Jinchuriki
> -Shinju fruit/tsukyuomi



Means little to nothing.  Until we know her end goal, if she has one, he could be played at anytime.


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 17, 2014)

as kaguya needed his help. the tree was in danger. they need each other to make their plan come true "its time we become one"



Raventhal said:


> Means little to nothing.  Until we know her end goal, if she has one, he could be played at anytime.



nah he wont. u worried for nothing


----------



## Tony Lou (Apr 17, 2014)

Unless we get confirmation that Kaguya talked to him in the past, it's just an empty theory.


----------



## Mateush (Apr 17, 2014)

Kaguya didn't need Madara's help. She is using him.


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 17, 2014)

the tree was going down

kaguya = tree

i think its safe to assume kaguya and the tree became one when she ate the fruit.


----------



## celebrei (Apr 17, 2014)

Yes, Madara is a pawn of the ultimate evil


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 17, 2014)

Wait, I just read the chapter over. And yeah, something seems fishy with kaguya saying "The time to become one has come". She said it like they were planning this , this whole time, and Madara didn't know how to connect with her until he absorbed the tree itself. 

That being said. there can be 3 scenarios.

Scenario 1. Kaguya will manage to gain control of madara and try to wreck havoc and cause damage, but will eventually be stopped by naruto and sasuke.

Scenario 2. Madara Will work with kaguya or gain control like how obito did, and will manage to get his Rinnegan back thus being anther power up, and fight and kill off important people and castthe uinfinite tsukuyomi. Or he defeated by a combined rasengan/chidori amplified by RS's power from naruto and sasuke.

Scenario 3. (Worst case scenario) Kaguya will try to control Madara and manage to do so temporarily, but will be weakened by naruto and sasuke , thus giving Madara the chance to gain back control. But this time. Madara Will try to help naruto and sasuke by using a seal (six path ninja tools) and sacrificing him self with kaguya in order to save the world. Basically, go out on some Nagato shit.


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 17, 2014)

celebrei said:


> Yes, Madara is a pawn of the ultimate evil



except she isn't any more evil than madara is


----------



## Kyuubi Naruto (Apr 17, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Wait, I just read the chapter over. And yeah, something seems fishy with kaguya saying "The time to become one has come". She said it like they were planning this , this whole time, and Madara didn't know how to connect with her until he absorbed the tree itself.
> 
> That being said. there can be 3 scenarios.
> 
> ...



Where is the theory that she eventually controls Madara but then as he's about to die she flees? Afterwards Madara dies and this sets up the next arc while the war arc is done for. She was probably stuck in the tree and now that she is free she decided to use Madara to take over. Once he fails she will realize she'd rather do it herself than wait until he wins and then she'd take him over. 

If Kaguya is alive I highly doubt she'd be stronger in Madara's body than her own. Madara is not surviving this arc but she has potential to survive.


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 17, 2014)

The juubi/shinjuu and madara are getting wrapped up this arc (the War arc). That means kaguya as well. There is no point in introducing kaguya after madara when madara just clearly merged with her this chapter


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 17, 2014)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> Where is the theory that she eventually controls Madara but then as he's about to die she flees? Afterwards Madara dies and this sets up the next arc while the war arc is done for. She was probably stuck in the tree and now that she is free she decided to use Madara to take over. Once he fails she will realize she'd rather do it herself than wait until he wins and then she'd take him over.
> 
> If Kaguya is alive I highly doubt she'd be stronger in Madara's body than her own. Madara is not surviving this arc but she has potential to survive.



Yeah, only way Madara won't survive is if he gets sealed.

And even edos can be drained of their chakra for an amount of time.

Is it just me or does naruto look FAST as hell with his new chakra mode.

And even edos can be drained of their chakra for an amount of time.


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 17, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Is it just me or does naruto look FAST as hell with his new chakra mode.
> 
> And even edos can be drained of their chakra for an amount of time.



he looks like a china made copy of minato


----------



## Revolution (Apr 17, 2014)

I swear, I need to have an artist make Akatsuki nesting dolls.

Here is a wooden  centerpiece with the Akatsuki painted on it.  No, wait!  You can open them and Pain is inside.  Another doll?  Nagato is inside?  another?  It's Tobi.  Oh look, the mask comes off and it's Obito.  Another doll?  It's Madara.  Oh look, another one?  It's Kaguya underneath.  I wonder if we reached the bottom yet. . .


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 17, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> I swear, I need to have an artist make Akatsuki nesting dolls.
> 
> Here is a wooden  centerpiece with the Akatsuki painted on it.  No, wait!  You can open them and Pain is inside.  Another doll?  Nagato is inside?  another?  It's Tobi.  Oh look, the mask comes off and it's Obito.  Another doll?  It's Madara.  Oh look, another one?  It's Kaguya underneath.  I wonder if we reached the bottom yet. . .



after kaguya, is the the real tree, behind that is the person that transformed into a tree long ago, then his mother


----------



## NarutoShion4ever (Apr 18, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> I swear, I need to have an artist make Akatsuki nesting dolls.
> 
> Here is a wooden  centerpiece with the Akatsuki painted on it.  No, wait!  You can open them and Pain is inside.  Another doll?  Nagato is inside?  another?  It's Tobi.  Oh look, the mask comes off and it's Obito.  Another doll?  It's Madara.  Oh look, another one?  It's Kaguya underneath.  I wonder if we reached the bottom yet. . .




And that's exactly what I don't like about the way that Kishimoto has been treating his villains. OH LOOK...another villain! *yawn* I wonder who's behind his/her actions? It's Tobito all over again: he had Madara standing next to him, stealing his spotlight; being more plot relevant; and so on. Now we have Madara in Obito's shoes: with Kaguya in the background, stealing his spotlight.

I do like the image of matryoshka doll villains. 




PikaCheeka said:


> Seeing as she was on the fucking moon for most of his life, no.
> 
> He's too developed a character to get trolled like that now.




You do have a point that Madara is more developed compared to Nagato/Pain or Tobito. Nagato/Pain got trolled slightly before he had some character development. Tobito got trolled for almost a year in real time. Unfortunately, it would fit the pattern of making each trolling worse than the one before, so I don't think that Madara is safe. In all honesty, none of these characters should have been trolled.


----------



## Stratogabo (Apr 18, 2014)

This chapter was the first time ever the tree/Juubi/Kaguya spoke to Madara and you can clearly see his surprise. Don't make things up. He wasn't his pawn "all along", but he surely will be now.


----------



## StickaStick (Apr 18, 2014)

Stratogabo said:


> This chapter was the first time ever the tree/Juubi/Kaguya spoke to Madara and you can clearly see his surprise. Don't make things up. *He wasn't his pawn "all along", but he surely will be now.*



lmao bait and swtitch.


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 18, 2014)

Stratogabo said:


> This chapter was the first time ever the tree/Juubi/Kaguya spoke to Madara and you can clearly see his surprise. Don't make things up. He wasn't his pawn "all along", but he surely will be now.



not a chance. she's as relevant as rikudou who's only purpose is to power up their ideologists


----------



## Bruce Wayne (Apr 18, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> not a chance. she's as relevant as rikudou who's only purpose is to power up their ideologists



Except the Sage isn't evil.


----------



## Stratogabo (Apr 18, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> not a chance. she's as relevant as rikudou who's only purpose is to power up their ideologists



Since we were told that the Juubi wasn't sentient (or something like that) I've always thought that it would be, at some point, either when: a) Naruto talk-no-jutsu'd it, or b) the Juubi was to take over its Jinchuuriki (either Obito or Madara) and become the "real" FV. Of course, both scenarios were hypotetic, but at last, here it is: the Juubi has a "mind" of its own after all, and it seems to be Kaguya's. 

I know she's not really relevant, after all, she was casually introduced a couple of chapters ago as the most powerful character to have ever existed in the manga, while for Madara it took hundreds of chapters of build-up to finally get to see him in action. But I don't know... Maybe it's me not wanting the Juubi to be reduced to a plain stupid-looking monster.


----------



## Danzio (Apr 18, 2014)

Sarahmint said:


> I swear, I need to have an artist make Akatsuki nesting dolls.
> 
> Here is a wooden  centerpiece with the Akatsuki painted on it.  No, wait!  You can open them and Pain is inside.  Another doll?  Nagato is inside?  another?  It's Tobi.  Oh look, the mask comes off and it's Obito.  Another doll?  It's Madara.  Oh look, another one?  It's Kaguya underneath.  I wonder if we reached the bottom yet. . .





_Trollception_


----------



## Fiiction (Apr 18, 2014)

Madara won't get trolled.


----------



## Revolution (Apr 18, 2014)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> Madara is more developed compared to Nagato/Pain or Tobito.



Not until we get his back story from his point of view is he developed.  All we know so far is he went insane for power after abandoning his clan and village.



T-Bag said:


> not a chance. she's as relevant as rikudou who's only purpose is to power up their ideologists



Their only relevance is to make the bookshelf of Naruto fatter.  They could very well be filler characters and nothing would be different.


----------



## Za Fuuru (Apr 18, 2014)

Don't forget that Madara has Indra's chakra and that Indra was Kaguya's son or grandson (it's not clear). Madara might have been controlled through Indra's chakra. Maybe Indra tried this before and failed because Ashura killed him


----------



## StickaStick (Apr 18, 2014)

The problem with dismissing Kaguya like Rikduo is that Kaguya is actually on the battlefield (real world) in real time. With this most recent chapter we've now become aware that she may very well be the tree and might start influencing events openly. That's far different than Hagoromo who's off in some dream land relegated to invading your subconscious.


----------



## Kyuubi Naruto (Apr 18, 2014)

The Format said:


> The problem with dismissing Kaguya like Rikduo is that Kaguya is actually on the battlefield (real world) in real time. With this most recent chapter we've now become aware that she may very well be the tree and might start influencing events openly. That's far different than Hagoromo who's off in some dream land relegated to invading your subconscious.



To add onto this we also know about Hagoromo. He was born from Kaguya, had a brother, they faced Jyuubi, he had 2 kids, ended up being on his deathbed, I mean we know about him. With Kaguya we have no idea about her. She came from who knows where, she's the strongest and we had no idea of what happened to her which has never happened in this manga as far as I can recall. Whenever someone incredibly powerful is mentioned this is always explained and she's also been talked about more and more lately. 

Her and Hagoromo's situations are two different things.


----------



## -Minato- (Apr 19, 2014)

Plot twist: It's the Sage's brother speaking to Madara. 
It would be great for a female to be FV.


----------



## StickaStick (Apr 19, 2014)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> To add onto this we also know about Hagoromo. He was born from Kaguya, had a brother, they faced Jyuubi, he had 2 kids, ended up being on his deathbed, I mean we know about him. With Kaguya we have no idea about her. She came from who knows where, she's the strongest and we had no idea of what happened to her which has never happened in this manga as far as I can recall. Whenever someone incredibly powerful is mentioned this is always explained and she's also been talked about more and more lately.
> 
> Her and Hagoromo's situations are two different things.



Yup, even if one doesn't think Kaguya's going to be FV (I certainly hope not) it's foolish to think her story isn't going to be flushed out more. And the thing I think ppl who don't want to see Kaguya take the reigns form Mads should be worried about is that the most opportune time to flush out her story would be if when she became sentient again, which would likely require...


----------



## Palm Siberia (Apr 19, 2014)

Everyone is working for everyone Naruto will reveal he is working with Sasuke to take over the world


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 19, 2014)

Rookie mistakes, rookie mistakes, rookie mistakes.(Deal how)

Madara's no pawn. He's THE QUEEN.(The most powerful piece on the chest board) And he's much, much more complex than one might imagine.

Note: Madara could have executed Mugen Tsukuyomi a hot minute ago, yet HE DIDN'T. Let's refer back to Hagoromo for a bit...

"Don't thank me..I have no right for that. The current world desires Indra's.."
"No, my mothers method. If that is the natural flow of things"

The above implicates that NOT EVEN HAGOROMO is completely against his mothers methods.

Dubbing Madara Kaguya's pawn would also make room to dub Naruto and Sasuke Hagoromo's PAWNS. Hell, even more. As their current power up was directly given to them by the sage himself. Madara actually worked hard for HIS......

But of course that would be a "SCORNFUL" way of viewing Naruto and Sasuke as well, right? As despite the source of their power, their clearly the KINGS on the chest board currently.(Meaning if they lose, the world ENDS)

(But the above isn't what I wanted to discuss)

The above was merely an OPENING ACT. A way to clear the "Anti-Madara" movement, that's been swelling over the past few weeks.

I stated earlier Madara's COMPLEX. What he truly wants isn't clear.

First he hints(Wanting to create a world where even the Uch  "losers" are winners)

Yet he clearly enjoys battling strong opponents.

Then he hints.....(Operation REVIVE UCHIHA CLAN)

This reinforces the above...(The reason why dubbing him Kaguya's pawn is a bit misguided)

Yet there's a "contingency clause" 
"As the LAST ONE WITH THE STRONGEST CHAKARA I WILL DO THIS" 

With the above in mind.....Madara is truly no different than Hagoromo....Might MAKES RIGHT is what this is boiling down too, but their are TWO INDRA REINCARNATIONS IN PLAY. And these TWO INDRA'S have two different views. Madara however only RESPECTS POWER. 

Calling Madara a Kaguya pawn is not only disrespectful, it'll get you embarrassed out on these battlefields.

Madara is the culmination of multiple characters, which makes his ENDGAME RATHER UNCLEAR. A new END GAME WAS INTRODUCED THIS CHAPTER.(Sounds awfully similar to Oro's desires)

Alas....Ultimately I believe Madara's endgame to be THIS on a HIGHER SCALE.

It's revenge.....It's revival of the Uchiha clan.....It's peace.....It's Immortality. IT'S SASUKE, NAGATO, ORO, OBITO, ALL ROLLED INTO ONE.(That's very fitting for the final villain)

"How y'all disrespect "GOD"" 
As that's what Madara is aspiring to be...


----------



## celebrei (Apr 27, 2014)

Anyone with intuition and common sense can clearly see that Mūgen Tsukuyomi  was Kaguya's plan from the start and not Madara's and that Madara is and always has been a PAWN of the Queen of Evil Kaguya


----------



## T-Bag (Apr 27, 2014)

celebrei said:


> Anyone with intuition and common sense can clearly see that Mūgen Tsukuyomi  was Kaguya's plan from the start and not Madara's and that Madara is and always has been a PAWN of the Queen of Evil Kaguya



anyone with intuition and common sense can clearly see bringing TRUE peace was rikudou's plan from the start and not naruto's, and that naruto is and always has been a PAWN of the KING and  rikudou

saw what i did there? nah, ur not that smart


----------



## Klona (Apr 27, 2014)

I think Madara met Kaguya when he supposedly died with his battle with Hashirama, just like when Naruto and Sasuke met Hagoromo.


----------



## Jagger (Apr 27, 2014)

I'm pretty sure Madara thought Kaguya's existence was still a thing before that chapter.

In fact, the way Madara described Kaguya makes me thing he had no idea Kaguya was the kind of person that had the same plan as him (Infinite Tsukuyomi). 

If he was following her plan without him knowing that in the first place that doesn't make him a pawn, to be honest.


----------



## celebrei (May 31, 2014)

Axl Low said:


> byakugam final villian incoming



Yep pretty much


----------



## Mateush (May 31, 2014)

This thread


----------



## Azula (May 31, 2014)

-Azula- said:


> a woman manipulating madara and snatching the final villian seat


----------



## Bruce Wayne (May 31, 2014)




----------



## SLB (May 31, 2014)




----------



## Arya Stark (May 31, 2014)

hahahahaha this thread oh man


----------



## babaGAReeb (May 31, 2014)

fuckin celebrei was right!

someone post hagoromo porn for him


----------



## takL (May 31, 2014)

he mistook kaguyas voice for shinjus.
im pretty sure he's never met kaguya in person or imagined she or anyone could have a more long range plan  than his.


----------



## Samehadaman (May 31, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> How the hell can you people pretend that she was manipulating Madara all along when she was not even existent on this earth until the shinji tree was made? Even if you want to pretend she was in the Gedo, Madara had these plans before the Gedo was on earth.
> 
> He obviously did everything himself. The RS _explained _this over the last few weeks.





T-Bag said:


> kaguya is the pawn here.







*Spoiler*: __ 



Just joking, the Kaguya asspul does suck.


----------



## Arya Stark (May 31, 2014)

takL said:


> he mistook kaguyas voice for shinjus.
> im pretty sure he's never met kaguya in person or imagined she or anyone could have a more long range plan  than his.



he got trolled the worst man...he got it worst.


----------



## SharkBomb 4 (May 31, 2014)

What makes this so terrible for him was the position Madara was in when this happened. Many expected this to happen when he was defeated but no, this happened when he was at the top of his game.

When Black Zetsu fucked Obito, Naruto had already come inside him. He didn't need breaking in, Black Zetsu got to go in easy because he was well and used by that point. When Black Zetsu fucked Madara though, it was without lube or protection, he just went in without warning and is now pumping his will into him without permission. Unlike with Hashirama, the soreness will never go away.


----------



## babaGAReeb (May 31, 2014)

in other words ur saying black zetsu raped madara...

dem ^ (use bro)


----------



## takL (May 31, 2014)

maddys lower half grows to be full maddy and pwns b zetsu →maddy fans go nuts　'I know it! madara is the fv!' and maddy haters go (?･ω･`)
then when kaguya enters and pwns maddy n good guys→maddy haters go nuts 'I told you so! ━━━(ﾟ∀ﾟ).━━━!!!'

just like obito fans vs maddy fans.

popcorns.


----------



## babaGAReeb (May 31, 2014)

i forgot all bout legsdara...


----------



## Samehadaman (May 31, 2014)

For overall plot purposes, Madara and Obito are the same guy:

An Uchiha we thought was dead wants to set up the Juubi moon eye plan, but ends up being some sort of pupil to another character we also thought was dead, and ends up returning to the world and betray him.

Having Obito and Madara and now bring Kaguya means those two were redundant. Both had the same objective (peace through illusion) and the same method (Juubi, Moon Eye plan), someone with an alternative belief countering them (Hashirama, Naruto), and both got hijacked by a dead character who returned (Madara, Kaguya).
It really was just dragging the plot save from a few minor diferences.


----------



## Axl Low (May 31, 2014)

celebrei said:


> Yep pretty much



joy of joys


----------



## egressmadara (May 31, 2014)

Extra plot twist: Someone's manipulating Kaguya 

Backstabbing dat bitch


----------



## BlinkST (May 31, 2014)

Like who? Her father?


----------



## Jagger (May 31, 2014)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> It is also a sign of Kishi not really taking time with Madara's characters. No writer/artist says they don't know what they're going to do with something and mean it and expect us to think they care about it. If Kishi cared he'd constantly think about what he was going to do, I mean literally think about it until he's worked it out. He hasn't done that with Madara though hence his comment and hence Madara's strength has been bullshit for a while. You mean to tell us he couldn't think of another way for Madara to escape Gaara's jutsu than to use a Susanoo without eyes?
> 
> He truly doesn't care about that section. It is also a reason why Obito as a character has seemed to be more complete than Madara who's basically an overpowered brute.
> 
> I gladly accept Kaguya returning to the manga.


You do realize if Kaguya comes back, she will probably end up being stronger than Madara himself, which will contradict the entire point of "I don't know how to defeat Madara" since he's just basically introducing a more powerful villain.

Also, if they somehow defeat Kaguya, it will end up proving that Sasuke and Naruto could defeat Madara as well, leaving moot that part about Madara.


----------



## Kyuubi Naruto (May 31, 2014)

Jagger said:


> You do realize if Kaguya comes back, she will probably end up being stronger than Madara himself, which will contradict the entire point of "I don't know how to defeat Madara" since he's just basically introducing a more powerful villain.
> 
> Also, if they somehow defeat Kaguya, it will end up proving that Sasuke and Naruto could defeat Madara as well, leaving moot that part about Madara.



That's pretty much what I'm saying here. 

Madara received all those power-ups for Kaguya's return. Before, we didn't know why but now, given his strength and his appearance along with her return, it makes complete sense. Kishi made that comment for a reason. With that said nah, I still don't think he thought about Madara's character in full detail, at least development-wise, compared to Obito. I do think he figured out how he'd take him out of action though which is to bring in Kaguya. 

Naruto and Sasuke can definitely take out Madara now. With Kaguya however, the stronger character, it's a bit more questionable which is good for suspense.


----------



## NarutoShion4ever (Jun 1, 2014)

Samehadaman said:


> For overall plot purposes, Madara and Obito are the same guy:
> 
> An Uchiha we thought was dead wants to set up the Juubi moon eye plan, but ends up being some sort of pupil to another character we also thought was dead, and ends up returning to the world and betray him.
> 
> ...




This. Kishimoto basically confirmed what everyone already suspected. Before this, there was still the possibility that Madara's plan was different from Obito's. It wasn't. The only difference is the information provided to the reader which basically amounts to "minus Kaguya" versus "plus Kaguya". Everyone who still believes that Kishimoto *plans* should have themselves examined, because what Kishimoto does doesn't fit the definition.


----------



## NW (Jun 1, 2014)

Madara's the second most well-written character in this manga, IMO.

I have trust in Kishi. Overcoming Kaguya or not, he won't be dead and he is getting good development out of this.



Samehadaman said:


> For overall plot purposes, Madara and Obito are the same guy:
> 
> An Uchiha we thought was dead wants to set up the Juubi moon eye plan, but ends up being some sort of pupil to another character we also thought was dead, and ends up returning to the world and betray him.
> 
> ...


You're oversimplifying things.

They're two completely different characters with different motives, personalities, appearances, abilities, accomplishment, and development.


----------



## CuteJuubi (Jun 1, 2014)

Kyuubi Naruto said:


> That's pretty much what I'm saying here.
> 
> Madara received all those power-ups for Kaguya's return. Before, we didn't know why but now, given his strength and his appearance along with her return, it makes complete sense. Kishi made that comment for a reason. With that said nah, I still don't think he thought about Madara's character in full detail, at least development-wise, compared to Obito. I do think he figured out how he'd take him out of action though which is to bring in Kaguya.
> 
> Naruto and Sasuke can definitely take out Madara now. With Kaguya however, the stronger character, it's a bit more questionable which is good for suspense.



Perhaps Hago's bro will come into play. Given that Maddy's headband fell on the scroll containing the Treasured Tools and Tenten out of commission.


----------



## Lurko (Jun 1, 2014)

Yeah as much as I love Madara he was due for it, he had a great run though.


----------



## T-Bag (Jun 1, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Yeah as much as I love Madara he was due for it, he had a great run though.



its not over

black zetsu and kaguya are gonna pay


----------



## JPongo (Jun 1, 2014)

Madara cheated his way to the top and is getting his justly desserts from mother Kaguya.

And here I am thinking he was something special


----------



## Mima-sama (Jun 1, 2014)

This is something we all know is going to be true.
She (or her will) is probably the one who saved him when he was on the brink of death, and he probably never realized it.
I was thinking, though... maybe Kaguya _won't_ kill Madara. Maybe she finds him to be an entertaining enough puppet to keep around.

*Spoiler*: __ 




I can't stop drawing Kaguya help


----------



## Ukoku (Jun 1, 2014)

^
She looks adorable


----------



## Mima-sama (Jun 1, 2014)

^Yeah, I've been drawing a lot of sinister/creepy Kaguya, I thought I'd do something a little cuter.
Even though she's got her hand up Madara's butt


----------



## celebrei (Jun 2, 2014)

JPongo said:


> Madara cheated his way to the top and is getting his justly desserts from mother Kaguya.
> 
> And here I am thinking he was something special



It's karma, what goes around comes around.


----------



## Klue (Jun 3, 2014)

JPongo said:


> Madara cheated his way to the top and is getting his justly desserts from mother Kaguya.
> 
> And here I am thinking he was something special



He cheated his way to the top? 

You speak as if he copied every jutsu he came across and became Hokage.


----------



## lathia (Jun 3, 2014)

Klue said:


> He cheated his way to the top?
> 
> You speak as if he copied every jutsu he came across and became Hokage.



Stealing isn't cheating amirite? Madara's own eyes could attain RS level evolution, got it.


----------



## takL (Jun 3, 2014)

at least stealing involves more work than just getting a gift.


----------



## Dolohov27 (Jun 3, 2014)

takL said:


> at least stealing involves more work than just getting a gift.


 All that work didn't do him no good in the end since he still ended up getting one shotted by black Zetsu  Oh Well


----------



## Orochibuto (Jun 3, 2014)

lathia said:


> Stealing isn't cheating amirite? Madara's own eyes could attain RS level evolution, got it.



I love Kaguya; but the guy has a point; what Madara did is way harder than eating a fruit.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jun 3, 2014)

Dolohov27 said:


> All that work didn't do him no good in the end since he still ended up getting one shotted by black Zetsu  Oh Well



In Madara's defense, it wasn't more than a sneak attack from someone Madara considered an ally.

Sakura could similarly one shoot an off guard Naruto with his back turned to her and his attention heavily focused elsewhere.


----------



## T-Bag (Jun 3, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> In Madara's defense, it wasn't more than a sneak attack from someone Madara considered an ally.
> 
> Sakura could similarly one shoot an off guard Naruto with his back turned to her and his attention heavily focused elsewhere.



she almost one shotted sasuke with her knife


----------



## Aazadan (Jun 3, 2014)

T-Bag said:


> she almost one shotted sasuke with her knife



But then she started crying and decided she needed to believe in Sasuke instead.


----------



## NarutoShion4ever (Jun 3, 2014)

Aazadan said:


> But then she started crying and decided she needed to believe in Sasuke instead.




Which says something about her determination. Not her skill.

Sakura > Sasuke = confirmed


----------



## ch1p (Jun 3, 2014)

takL said:


> at least stealing involves more work than just getting a gift.



OOOH burn.


----------



## celebrei (Jun 3, 2014)

Once a failure, always a failure, that's Madara


----------



## Invictus-Kun (Jun 3, 2014)

not yet done dude, unless he lies there dead


----------

