# The Uchiha Itachi Manifesto: The God, the Man, the King. [ESSAY]



## PikaCheeka (Jan 6, 2012)

*Spoiler*: _(Multiple) A/N’s; feel free to skip!_ 



 – It’s about time I finished that Itachi essay I started (sadly) over a year ago now. I’ve since had to rework a lot of it but am finally done. I am well-aware that the A/T/S connection has been done to death and most everyone on the forums knows of it by now, so I kept that part short. Feel free to skip that first part if you wish. I hope I found some lesser-known information on Yatagarasu and the Imperial Regalia though (and the three deities as well, especially Susan’o). Once I get into Part 2, I move away from the mythology so if you feel you are well-versed in it, go right on to Part 2 once you finish the introduction.  And by the way, a few parts of this may sound familiar to you, as there are a couple of paragraphs I ganked from a post I made on him some time ago. I also wish to point out that when I get to Itachi’s history, I speed through the parts that are well-established and known, while I focus more on recent events that have not been written of and analyzed as much. Dedication, acknowledgments, and resources are at the end of the essay. Oh yes, and anyone who is tempted to give a generic “tl;;dr you repeated yourself a lot” comment can keep it to themselves. 

Oh, and important! For some reason when I click on certain Mangaday links, it takes me to page 1 of the most recent chapter regardless of what the link is. If that happens, just manually change the chapter to what the url says. ☺

PS - Never fear. My favorite character remains the same. 


I know I forgot the spell-check. I'll fix that later.

Oh and staying on-topic is a good thing.  Keep in mind that this thread is about Itachi, not about the OP or Itachi fans in general.


*Uchiha Itachi: The God, the Man, the King.*

*Table of contents:*​
Introduction: Uchiha Itachi. – Post 1
Part 1: The God. – Posts 1-2
Part 2: The Man. – Posts 2-3
Conclusion: The King. – Post 4


*Introduction: Uchiha Itachi*​


> “Itachi, Itachi, Itachi….Even in death, he never ceases to amaze me.”



Uchiha Itachi has long been one of the most controversial figures in the manga. His questionable moral code, his convoluted and volatile past, his power, and his increasing importance in the series continue to raise questions about who he is, exactly. Was he a villain? Yes. Was he a good guy? Yes. Was he the most well-crafted and complex character in the series? Arguably. Was he a “retcon” whose past was recently modified to better suit the series? No. Itachi was not a villain who changed his ways, thus suddenly becoming a good guy, as is often the case. Instead, he was a sort of hero who lived his life a villain, one whose true motives were not revealed until after his death. Itachi was both brutal and loving to the end. It is this, his sense of justice, of right and wrong, that perhaps makes him so complicated and intriguing a character. 

Itachi may be a protagonist, but he an unconventional one. He has been called a hero, a villain, an anti-hero, and an anti-villain, yet he apparently fits into none of these categories. There is something unshakably disturbing about him, as despite his love for his brother, he was willing to torture him and essentially ruin his life, all to make him stronger. He recognizes that hatred does indeed make one powerful, which seems to run contrary to the message of the series. He shows his love in ways that are incomprehensible, unfathomable, to the reader, yet it is clear nevertheless and somehow, he is forgivable. He is still human, but Itachi is far from ordinary. He is unforgettable. 

Itachi’s symbolism is deeply tied to Shinto concepts of the divine, more so than anyone else in the series, yet he as a character is also one of the most profoundly human, and deeply tragic, to be found. His divinity and his humanity are combined in an eerily realistic manner, thus summing up exactly what he is, exactly what he has been called by fans for years: The King.


*Part 1: “The God”*​
The implication of divinity, strong in Itachi, is a notion treated with disdain, yet at the same time is the very definition of the character described in this essay. His jutsu are named after a triad of exceptionally powerful Shinto deities once worshipped in Japan. With these he possesses spiritual weapons, a sort of weapon no one else in the series had ever had until he presented them; these are named after, and made to represent, the Imperial Regalia of Japan. He has the ability to transform into crows, a sign of divinity and the messenger of the gods in Shinto mythology.


*Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, and Susano'o*​
The three signature moves of the Mangekyou Sharingan, first displayed by Itachi, are, as most know, named after three of the most powerful deities in Shinto. Amaterasu is the all-consuming black flame said to be as powerful as the sun itself in the manga; appropriately, Amaterasu is the sun goddess. The early emperors of Japan were said to be her descendants. 

Tsukuyomi, the god of the moon and brother to Amaterasu is one of the most powerful genjutsu in the series, and is able to cast one into an illusion where a moment of less than one second can appear as three days of torture for the victim.

Finally comes Susan'o, the jutsu that can supposedly only be awakened if one possesses both Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi; he is the god of wind and storm. It is puzzling to think that he is Itachi's most powerful attack, as of the three deities it is Amaterasu who is most worshipped. However, Susan'o was also the most unruly and violent, which is fitting given the strength of the jutsu. Ironically, this god was also known for defilement and desecration of land to such a degree that the Oharae ritual was founded. Itachi’s Susan’o is the exact opposite, as it is what purifies Sasuke of Orochimaru’s curse. It also may be worth noting that Itachi only activated this jutsu upon being struck by Sasuke's Kirin in the midst of a storm. 

As has been shown with Sasuke and Madara, these are not limited to Itachi alone. What makes his unique is that his Susan'o is also the possessor of the Imperial Regalia.


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## PikaCheeka (Jan 6, 2012)

*Part 1: ?The God? (continued)*



*The Imperial Regalia*​
The Yata Mirror Itachi possesses is one of the most powerful defenses in the series, therefore upholding the idea that it is in some way sacred or kingly. It is able to envelop Susan'o, deflecting all attacks by changing its own affinity. The Yata mirror of myth is also related to Susan'o, though in a less direct manner. When Susan'o went on a rampage through the lands of Amaterasu, the sun goddess was so insulted that she retreated to a cave, disrupting the order of night and day. She was eventually tricked into coming forth from her cave, and was immediately greeted by a mirror (the Yata mirror) so that it could reflect her light onto the world. Mirrors hold a special significance in Japanese mythology; they are connected to purity as opposed to vanity. 

Yasanaki no Magatama appeared recently and unexpectedly in the manga. Little is known about the Yasanaki no Magatama, as it has at least two stories behind its origins. In one story, it was a jewel that attracted Amaterasu into leaving her cave, while in another, it was said to have been discovered in the stomach of a tanuki. This is fitting, as little is known about it within the manga, and of the three regalia, it appears to have the weakest connection to Itachi. Uchiha Madara is also capable of using it, and it is symbolically related to the Rikoudo Sage. Oddly enough, the one time Itachi ever used the magatama is when he attacked Nagato, a Rikoudo Sage himself.

The third and final piece of the Imperial Regalia, the sword of Kusanagi, is indirectly possessed by Itachi. His sword, the sword of Totsuka, is not actually one of the three imperial regalia, but is instead that which Susano'o used to destroy the eight-headed serpent ravaging Izumo. He was able to kill the serpent by getting him drunk on sake before beheading him.

This is directly related to Itachi, as his Susan'o, possessing Tostuka, defeated Orochimaru in his snake form. It was within the tail of the serpent that Susan'o of myth discovered the final piece, the sword Kusanagi. The original possessor of the sword Kusanagi in the manga was Orochimaru, who was able to pull it from his mouth, implying that he stored the sword somewhere within his body. When Itachi defeated Orochimaru and sealed him away, he also sealed the Kusanagi, thus gaining it for himself (though it is unlikely he will ever use it). Orochimaru was sealed away into a sake jug, the same jug that the sword of Totsuka was pulled from. This, perhaps, is a throwback to the idea that Susan'o defeated the snake through a combination of sake and sword.


*Yatagarasu and Crows*​
Itachi's signature creature is the crow. Not only is he able to turn into a murder of crows when disturbed, but he is able to speak through them. They are essentially his messengers, as we have seen with the crow he left Naruto. This crow was not a traditional ninjutsu, as was believed for some time, but instead proved to be the bearer of Koto Amatsukame. Originally belonging to Shisui, it was passed on to Itachi, who proved strong enough to build and use it. Koto Amatsukame was not only a message but a command, and it was a command that none could refuse. In this manner, it could easily be seen as divine: a divine message from Itachi. 

The crow in Japanese mythology (called Yatagarasu) holds special significance as the messenger of the gods. In Japan's early days, it was sent by the sun goddess Amaterasu to guide Emperor Jimmu to the heart of Japan after he became lost. This is one of several reasons why the three-legged crow is associated with the pole star, also called Myouken in Japan. Directly translated, this word means "wondrous sight", and Itachi, as one of the most gifted Sharingan users ever to live, easily lives up to that demand. Furthermore, it is said that praying upon a talisman with the crow on it can save one from blindness and eye disease, which Itachi eventually succumbed to. 


*Part 2: The Man*​
He possesses the ability to foresee what may happen, as he did Sasuke, to know what has happened when he should not know, as he knew Sasuke had not died when it was proclaimed that he had (this shall be discussed further in another section), and to sense evil, as he did the night of the Kyuubi attack; this was something the hero, Naruto, was only able to do upon attaining supernatural powers, whereas Itachi was capable when he was only six.

Despite the symbolism of the divine surrounding Itachi and his ancient code of honor, he is deeply, painfully human. While his sense of justice and his moral code may be foreign to most all the other characters in the manga, his emotions are not. Unable to transcend the inherently flawed love that man experiences, Itachi made a grievous error that would disrupt the order of the world. 

*History*​
Though several people throughout Japanese history were said to possess the Imperial regalia, usually given to them by the deities themselves. One such man Yamato Takeru, who is worth focusing on briefly not only because he was known for quelling rebellions, and consorting with Tengu (2), but because, like Itachi, he eventually tragically succumbed to disease. 

Itachi is spoken of as early as chapter four, long before he makes his first real appearance in the manga. What he did to Sasuke is slowly revealed throughout Part 1. He is spoken of early on as crying at the time of the massacre, which implies straight off that not all is right with Sasuke?s side of the story, though it is not fully explained until nearly four-hundred chapters after he is first mentioned. As is well-known, Itachi was used as an instrument of the Konoha government at a young age, just as Yamato Takeru was when it came to rebellions. In order to quell a coup d?etat that his clan was planning, a coup that they actually planned due to Tobi?s carefully planned actions over a decade prior, Itachi slaughtered the entire clan. At the time, no other options seemed available. Despite his ability to detach himself enough to kill his parents and clan members, he was unable to kill his brother, who he instead forced into hating, and eventually killing, him. It is not learned until much later that this was nothing other than an act of love on his part, albeit an act of love that at the moment seems to have done more damage than good.

Itachi first appears in an unassuming manner, eating dango in a tea house. He actually has very few appearances in the manga, yet each and every one he makes alters the story and the readers? perception of the ninja world significantly. From the moment he appears, the manga has changed. He portrays his overwhelming powers in an instant, showing Tsukuyomi, a jutsu that shakes the foundations of what a jutsu is capable of. Suddenly it is made known that there exist abilities that can alter space, time, and reality.  His next appearance throws Sasuke into a definitive rage, pushing him down the path into darkness that, until then, he had a chance of escaping. There is suddenly no hope of return for him, and the manga takes a rapid turn of events. 

When next Itachi comes forward, in Part 2, he tests Naruto?s strength and forces him to perform his first, and thus far only, kill. After Sasuke?s fight with Deidara, Kisame catches Itachi in the rain and suspects him to becrying after Sasuke?s supposed death, raising questions about Itachi?s true nature. He approaches Naruto, prophetically asks him what he would do if Sasuke attacked Konoha, and leaves with him a power that could defeat his brother if necessary. Shortly thereafter, he is finally confronted by Sasuke and after a long and arduous battle, he, like Yamato Takeru, succumbs to the unknown disease that had been slowly destroying his body for years. And finally, in his death, we discover the truth of the massacre and the darker side of Konoha as Sasuke, driven by grief, is pushed even further down the road to darkness. Itachi, and not Naruto, is the one who has been the driving force behind Sasuke?s most significant actions. His next appearance, taking place after his death, is in Kisame?s flashback shortly before his own demise. In a single sentence, he changed the life of a man who believed himself lost, as shall be discussed further later on.


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## PikaCheeka (Jan 6, 2012)

*Part 2: The Man (continued)*


*History (continued)*​

When Itachi returns from the dead against his will thanks to Kabuto?s Edo Tensei, he displays monumental insight and power. He also shows denial, a very human characteristic given what he does not long afterwards. Though he suspected that Sasuke might go stray, when he hears Naruto confirm his fears, he cannot accept it. Furthermore, Itachi is seen to be wrong in some aspects here, lending even more to his human aspects. While he believed he was able to keep secrets from Madara and that his Amaterasu would succeed in killing him, he was forced to accept that he was wrong on both accounts. But it is here where Itachi proves himself as well. Edo Tensei, said to be a jutsu with no drawbacks, a jutsu noone may ever break free from, is defeated by Itachi. Realizing that the only way to break himself free from Kabuto?s hold, he purposefully activates his Mangekyou Sharingan in order to draw the crow forth. He may have never expected to use it on himself, but he was quickly able to find a way for it to work to his advantage. Though he knew it could no longer be used against Sasuke, he believed it was worth the risk: he could leave Sasuke to Naruto while enabling himself to fight Kabuto, who admits that Itachi is  beyond his level. Free from Edo Tensei, he is able to save the lives of both Naruto and KB from Nagato and tell them exactly how to defeat him before sealing him away forever. Finally, he tells Naruto what he has needed to hear for years, which shall be discussed further shortly.

Divine as his symbolism may be, Itachi was human enough to make mistakes, just as he was human enough to admit them.

*Capacity*​
One of the most refreshing things about Itachi?s character is that he does not have your traditional villain or tragic hero sob story. While his life itself was tragic, it was ultimately a path he chose to follow. He could claim himself to be the victim of circumstance, of the world as a whole, but he never did. He never perceived himself as betrayed, nor did he lash out at everyone in blind rage because of what happened to him. Instead, he made the decisions he made in his life with determination and stuck by them to the very end, accepting what came his way with what can only be seen as a sort of grace:


> "For the sake of Konoha's peace, and, more than anything, for you...Uchiha sasuke, he wanted to die a criminal, a traitor. Accepting dishonor in payment for honor...and hatred in payment for love. Even then, Itachi died smiling, entrusting the Uchiha name to you, while deceiving you forever..."


Itachi sacrificed everything for the village and, most of all, for his brother. Although he remained alive after the massacre for some years, he was already destroyed as a human being. He outwardly gave his own humanity up that night, though he unknowingly only made himself more human, and continued to live on for Sasuke's sake. Despite living a horrifically miserable life, both in what happened to him and in what he did, Itachi never attempted to justify his actions to anyone, despite the fact that he of all people had a powerful reasoning to do so. He brought his secrets with him to the grave and beyond, preferring to die a criminal, hated by the one person he loved most in the world, in order to protect his brother and the honor of the clan.

Itachi, it seems, has known true despair


> You?re such a child. You talk of nothing but pipe dreams?there are times when a ninja must make painful choices.


Itachi has made them.

*Brotherhood*​
Confronting the unfathomable decision of slaughtering his clan or allowing a coup that could lead to a world war, Itachi ultimately chose the former, willingly sacrificing his humanity, being marked as a criminal for life, and leaving the one person he loved, his brother, to hate him until his death. Unlike most shinobi in the series, Itachi retained the old-world understanding of honor. He saw it crucial that the clan retain their standing in the world despite claiming to have lost all hope for it, and he believed that turning Sasuke into a hero was a great gift. It is something difficult to comprehend; he is a throwback to an older code. He would rather maintain the honor or the village and that of his clan by never letting the secret out, by sacrificing himself in silence. But Itachi?s love for Konoha was not all-consuming. He was not the perfect, idealistic, and inhuman sacrifice. In the end, he chose Sasuke, threatening Danzou that he would betray Konoha were anyone to touch his brother. Itachi loved the village. His Will of Fire was strong, but it always returned to his brother, what Danzou perceived as his single failure. This is because he loved Sasuke more than he loved the village, and his attempt to make Sasuke into a hero ended up endangering both Konoha and himself.

Itachi is not perfect. He is not fail-proof, which makes him all the more believable as a character. When Itachi last confronted Sasuke, it was clear he already suspected that Sasuke might turn towards darkness, as he had left his powers with Naruto. Yet even then, he did not kill him. He was unable to, not out of any physical weakness, but instead due to his love for him. And that is not the only weakness he has. His love as he presents it is cold and ruthless. Believing hatred as the key to one?s strength, he forced Sasuke to hate him, driving him to darkness, all in the hopes that he would grow stronger. Itachi never went halfway. He was brutal towards Sasuke towards Sasuke for eight years, beating, torturing, and ravaging his mind at every meeting, all the while further destroying himself. Though he sought to make himself the instrument of Sasuke?s catharsis, he inadvertently made Sasuke the instrument, and victim, of his redemption.  

This is perhaps the most supremely human aspect of his nature. Human love is flawed. Itachi?s may be more so than others, but the fact remains that it is human. Most other characters in the series are capable of love that never seems to include any negative side effects, whereas Itachi, driven by guilt, believes that the only way he can display his love is through forcing Sasuke to hate him. It is unnatural, almost perverse, but it is nevertheless very real. Looking back on his actions, it is clear that it was not a recent fabrication, but something that was subtly existing all along. Itachi admits very early on that with love comes hate. 

*Tragedy*​
Itachi?s final words to his brother Sasuke are some of the most heartbreaking ones to be found in the series, not for their eloquence but for the fact that in the end, he summed up his love for his brother in just a few words, stripping away the mirage he had built over the last eight years, and for the knowledge that his words would be ignored. 


> Sorry Sasuke?this is the last time.


Time and again throughout Sasuke?s childhood, Itachi turned him away when he was asked to play, telling him that he was busy, poking his forehead, and saying that he would do so next time. As Sasuke commented, there was never a next time. In the end, the next time would be their final time, something Itachi apologized for. 

This apology was not limited to a simple one of no longer having the time to train with Sasuke. It was an apology for everything he had ever done to him, for the murders he carried out that destroyed Sasuke?s life and perhaps even for not killing him when he could have, for the torture that he imposed upon him so that he may grow stronger, for the shattering of one of the deepest, if not the deepest, bond that Sasuke would ever have. It was an apology for failing to be flawless, for letting emotions govern his decisions. It was an apology for being human.


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## PikaCheeka (Jan 6, 2012)

*Conclusion: The King*​
Uchiha Itachi is not all god, nor is he all man. He is divinely human; in a country where emperors are said to be descendants of the gods, he is regal. A King.

Itachi moved through the ranks at an exceedingly young age and was considered a genius by all who met him. He obtained Mangekyou at 11 (or 13 depending on timeline) and slaughtered an entire clan at 13. He was incomprehensible to his own parents and perceived, albeit cruelly, as the one hope to avoid war by the elders. Everyone, from Kakashi to Orochimaru, fears and acknowledges his strength. He is capable of using genjutsu not with his eyes but with a single finger. He possesses not only the Susuano’o, but the Totsuka Sword and the Yata Mirror, legendary spiritual items capable of forever sealing one away. He fought on for years, forcing the one person he loved to hate him, his body wracked with fatal illness, all so that his brother may kill him. Itachi sacrificed more than just his life. He sacrificed _every aspect of his being_ for those he wished to protect, something that only a king can do.

Itachi fought as a king should, with dignity and pose, calm under any circumstance, be he preparing for his own death or fighting one of the Rikoudo Sages. Only two times was he ever seen to lose this calm, and one of these times, the second time[/url] proved to be nothing more than an act, an attempt to force Sasuke to use his most powerful attacks against him. The first time, when he lashed out against the Uchiha police who falsely accused him of killing Shisui, was the only he truly displayed anger, and he did so in the name of honor, though he does so in a disguised manner. While he speaks of bettering himself, he is in reality speaking of how low the clan has fallen over the years, something he can only know the truth of if he knows of the planned coup. As discussed earlier, Itachi’s sense of honor and justice is an old one, so old that it is foreign to many of the characters  but powerful nevertheless. It is one he stands by to the bitter end.

Nearly ten years before his death and when still little more than a child, Itachi, the man who lived a life of lies all for the sake of the good, spoke of the dangers of appearances, something that is even more relevant given the fact that he is a master of illusions. Itachi’s comments on reality are some of the most impacting and unforgettable words in the series, summing up the entire world around them. 


> People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be merely "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts...Their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?


He recognizes that nothing is as it seems in life, that there is a truth beneath the truth, that what people simply accept is not always correct, both in rightfulness and in truth. He speaks not just for Sasuke, not just for himself, but for Konoha, Naruto, and the ninja world as a whole, as it is a world whose very foundations are built on war and hatred under the guise of peace. Change, as he tells his clan, cannot happen without knowing reality, and what can happen if people do not accept true reality? It takes someone with great courage and magnanimity, someone born with the heart of a king, to accept this.  

Itachi also possesses the ability to understand others on a level few, if any, other characters have achieved. He is able to understand others easily, as he has demonstrated with both Kisame and Naruto, and a level unique to himself. Itachi was well aware that Madara would track down Sasuke and, if that were the case, Sasuke might turn towards darkness. 


> You want to bring Sasuke back, don't you? But what if he doesn't want to go?...By force, if necessary, eh? If all goes well and Sasuke goes quietly, that's one thing. But what if it's the opposite. You said you thought of Sasuke as a brother. Well, I'm asking you what you'd do it Sasuke were to attack Konoha....Sasuke is still pure. He could easily be colored if anything. If that should happen, would you be able to stop him? Even if it meant killing him..,?





> I believed that Sasuke would transplant my eyes in order to gain "true" power...the Eternal Mangekyou.



His insight into human nature and unnatural ability to see the truth behind the truth is represented in his words. Though he speaks little, he does so prophetically, laying the foundations of the story. His statements are not simply thrown in there to elevate one’s impression of his intelligence, but instead have great relevance and give new meanings to events in the lives of those around him. He is able to change their lives with only a few words. His comments to Kisame on death give the man, who Itachi recognized as lost, meaning to life. 


> No matter what you’ve done, you never know what sort of person you are until the end…The moment of death is when you know what sort of person you are. That’s what death is, don’t you think?


At the moment of his death, when he commits suicide to protect Madara, Kisame realizes this to be true: 


> I thought I was a good-for-nothing….but it looks like I’m not!



Even the hero is affected by his words, for Itachi calmly, yet sternly, tells Naruto what he has needed to hear for years. 


> It seems to me you might be losing sight of what's important. Listen, and listen well. The reason the villagers, you used to dislike you...began to trust you, and to think of you as a comrade, was that you always acknowledge that they were there, and you always tried your hardest to be acknowledged by them. You said before that you 'couldn't have made it this far without them'. If you fixate your attentions onto your 'self', becoming arrogant and forgetting others...you'll one day become like Madara. No matter how strong you become, don't try to bear the weight by yourself. You will fail….The village didn't acknowledge him [Minato] because he became the Hokage. He became the Hokage because the village acknowledged him. Don't forget about your friends.



It is startling to think that a character that, from the very beginning of the manga, was believed to be evil, could be capable of such a thing. His words are spoken not only for those he directly speaks to, but for himself and for all who inhabit the world. Itachi’s words are not vague and deceptive, ultimately amounting to nothing; instead they are genuine and life-altering for those who hear them. They are the words of a man with wisdom beyond his years. They are the words of a king.




*Spoiler*: _Footnotes_ 




(1)	Oharae ritual – Also part of the Ritual of Great Purification, this Shinto ceremony takes place in the early summer and early winter and is meant to remove all pollution, defilement, misfortune, and sin/evil acts of the population.
(2)	There is a story of Yamato Takeru placing his hat on a tree at one point and witnessing a light, like fire, flitting through the tree. He discovered a small Tengu there but, not being disturbed by it, let it be.



*Spoiler*: _Dedication_ 




Dedicated, of course, to the bearers of:​...and the several avid Itachi fans who do not bear it. I’m sure you know who you are.



*Spoiler*: _Acknowledgements_ 




As usual, a big thank you to Kuromaku, who approved of my usage of the word “regal” when it came to Itachi, which more or less encouraged me to write this essay. Also to Akatsuki no Tenshi, whose constant enthusiasm for Itachi’s character also encouraged me. 





*Spoiler*: _Resources_ 




This goes without saying, but the manga & databooks. Various translations.
Shamanism in Japan by William Fairchild
A Year in the Life of a Shinto Shrine by John K. Nelson
Japanese Mythology by Juliet Piggott
The Samurai and the Sacred by Stephen Turnbull
And of course, the ever-useful OnmarkProductions and SacredTexts websites.


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## Seph (Jan 6, 2012)

I'd rep you if I could, give me 24 hours.

Thanks for dedicating this to us.

I think Itachi is by far the most complete human in the manga, and one of the most complete characters in Shonen history--his combination of intellect, talent, humanity, skill, intuition and elegance has absolutely no equal.


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## navy (Jan 6, 2012)

Itachi should get his own fan section.


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## Seph (Jan 6, 2012)

navy said:


> Itachi should get his own fan section.



 I might make that suggestion just for kicks.


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## MSAL (Jan 6, 2012)

Excellent Essay, as I come to expect from ou, and im happy to have spent the time helping where I could. +rep


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## ammarz (Jan 6, 2012)

I read it and I have to ask what is the point of all this?


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## SaVaGe609 (Jan 6, 2012)

I thought I was at least a moderate fan, but now I'm thinking I'm barely even that. Hardcore fans, I tell ya.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 6, 2012)

This was a magnificent essay; I read it from beginning to end, right down to the footnotes and resources.

You encapsulated all the important details of Itachi's character exceedingly well and gave him a worthy tribute. As one of his most deeply devoted fans, I enjoyed reading it immensely.

A couple comments I would like to add:



PikaCheeka said:


> Itachi’s Susan’o is the exact opposite, as it is what purifies Sasuke of Orochimaru’s curse. This god was believed to have been born from Izanagi's nose, which may or may not explain the large nose of Itachi's Susan'o.



The reason Susano'o has such a long nose is because it is meant to look like a Yamabushi Tengu. Sasuke's EMS Susano'o is modelled to look like a Karasu Tengu.





You will find a lot of other really interesting possible connections to Itachi in these. 



My last comment is just to proofread your material again more thoroughly; I did notice quite a few mistakes- typos, mostly.

Anyway, good work. 5 stars and repped.


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## Seraphiel (Jan 6, 2012)

ammarz said:


> I read it and I have to ask what is the point of all this?



An elaborate analysis of a character that 90% of NF fails to understand.

Pika it was an amazing read, I like both this one and the one you pm-ed me <3


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## Sorin (Jan 6, 2012)

Isn't this supposed to be in his FC or something? Yes I know he is awesome and all but seriously.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 6, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> An elaborate analysis of a character that 90% of NF fails to understand.



You're overestimating NF. 

Anyway, everyone who reads this magnificent work should 5-star the thread.


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## Seraphiel (Jan 6, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> You're overestimating NF.
> 
> Anyway, everyone who reads this magnificent work should 5-star the thread.



It was an arbitrary number anyway  

And already did that.


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## PikaCheeka (Jan 6, 2012)

Seph said:


> I'd rep you if I could, give me 24 hours.
> 
> Thanks for dedicating this to us.
> 
> I think Itachi is by far the most complete human in the manga, and one of the most complete characters in Shonen history--his combination of intellect, talent, humanity, skill, intuition and elegance has absolutely no equal.





♠Ace♠ said:


> Posting in a 5 star thread





MSAL said:


> Excellent Essay, as I come to expect from ou, and im happy to have spent the time helping where I could. +rep





PoinT_BlanK said:


> Reserving this spot. Because Point Blank deserves front row seats for any Itachi essay thread.
> 
> Will edit later with my thoughts.





Seraphiel said:


> An elaborate analysis of a character that 90% of NF fails to understand.
> 
> Pika it was an amazing read, I like both this one and the one you pm-ed me <3



Thank you for the reps and positive comments. 



MSAL said:


> I dont care if you "give a darn" or not. The point is, this essay took hours to compile and re-write, and effort was spent. Show some appreciation or dont read it.
> 
> Why did you even mention Jiraiya?
> 
> ...



Again, thank you.



SaVaGe609 said:


> I thought I was at least a moderate fan, but now I'm thinking I'm barely even that. Hardcore fans, I tell ya.



He's not even my favorite character. 



Nikushimi said:


> This was a magnificent essay; I read it from beginning to end, right down to the footnotes and resources.
> 
> You encapsulated all the important details of Itachi's character exceedingly well and gave him a worthy tribute. As one of his most deeply devoted fans, I enjoyed reading it immensely.



Thank you! "as one of his most deeply devoted fans..." indeed.



> The reason Susano'o has such a long nose is because it is meant to look like a Yamabushi Tengu. Sasuke's EMS Susano'o is modelled to look like a Karasu Tengu.
> 
> 
> You will find a lot of other really interesting possible connections to Itachi in these.



I completely forgot about the nose connection there. I'll delete that line. I considered adding a large Tengu section, as I recently did a Madara-Tengu essay, but I remember a lot of posts made about it once Sasuke's Susan'o emerged...



> My last comment is just to proofread your material again more thoroughly; I did notice quite a few mistakes- typos, mostly.
> 
> Anyway, good work. 5 stars and repped.



Yep, Al just pointed out the fact that I forgot spell-check.  Thanks though!


----------



## rac585 (Jan 6, 2012)

I see you've written more about Itachi than Kishi probably ever will.... tldr


----------



## Dei (Jan 6, 2012)

This is now my bible.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Jan 6, 2012)

*A tour de force.

The coup de grace to all other essays in the Konoha Library. Excellent. Simply fantastic!

I say this without being an enthusiastic fan of Itachi. 

If ever being subject to ordinary human failings and limitations were as grave as it is for Itachi, I cannot fathom it. If ever love were a crime so heinous as it is for Itachi, I cannot fathom it.

He is well-meaning; he tries to do good as he understands it. But he fell, not through any base intentions, but because of some fatal error in judgment. If that isn't a tragic hero, I don't know what is. Only Itachi could be so petty and heartless as to torture his own brother, and destroy his (relatively normal, with one outstanding exception) life in order to send him on a quest of self-destructive hatred. Only Itachi could be so mistaken and misunderstood so as to slaughter his own clan, and shed but a single tear afterwards not because of those he killed, but because of those he left alive.

However, only Itachi could be so selfless, so unspeakably loving so as to give up his own happiness, his own dreams, his own aspirations, for the sake of another. Only Itachi could be so keen, so wise, and so indelibly scarred so as to understand human nature at its very base, and paint a canvas with love, that love being his own bloody tears.

Itachi may be a god, he may be a king, but he is one bent on destruction. Not because of some impetuosity, not because of some lack of understanding, but because he sees and knows too much. He is much too cognizant of the way of the human, and ultimately he is defeated by that perceptiveness. Because he takes away, because he steals, ultimately others take and steal from him. Where he speaks of illusions and pipe dreams to Naruto, he is trapped in one himself. He is not free either. He is a living representation of Izanagi, one who turns his own sanguine illusions into vicious reality.

He may seal others using his Sword of Totsuka, but in the end Uchiha Itachi is someone living a lie so that another may live a truth. He masks himself, he siphons off his heart, and he swallows his guilt and regret. Though he wishes things could be different, dreaming is for the faint of heart. He is a man so strong, so willful his determination shatters unto itself. He loathes war, but creates it just to tighten those shackles around his wrists and ankles, hoping it will free a bird that never learned how to fly. For that reason he is a moral contradiction, a two-faced human being who showed the wrong side at the wrong moment. But it was the right time at the right place. Instead of displaying love to Sasuke at the moment when he needed it most, he casts him off. He hardens him the same way he hardened himself. Wrong side, wrong moment. But what would showing affection to him have done? Worse things. Sasuke would have questioned everything, and never "become stronger." A sadistic journey with such masochistic overtones it's enough to make any person lower their head in disbelief. 

But Itachi accepts it. He might not want to, but he must. Happiness was never for him, but it can be for another. Circumstances have damned him, those who should have loved him damned him, the light damned him, but in the darkness he finds repose. He can't face the strain of others because the strain is too great on himself. He can't play with illusions, he can't be the puppeteer, because he is the fool, and he is the puppet. But he is not a fool because of a lack of intelligence: he is a fool for being human. For loving. In that sense, we are all fools. He was taught that emotions make you weak; but an absence of emotions make you even weaker. They make you a shell ready to be manipulated by anyone and everyone.

A flawed god, and a flawed king. But a human so compassionate you'd think it was to a fault. And it is. 

"Courage is not a man with a [weapon] in his hand. It's knowing you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what. You rarely win, but sometimes you do."  
- Atticus Finch, To Kill a Mockingbird 

Ironically enough, Itachi killed the mockingbird in himself, as well as Sasuke. But hope never dies, and that's why Itachi won. Because he dared to hope that there can still be happy endings.*


----------



## ammarz (Jan 6, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> An elaborate analysis of a character that 90% of NF fails to understand.



Oh, OK. I can never see myself being attached to a fictional manga character to this extent, but everyone has his preferences. Additionally, if other people disagree with oneself, it doesn't mean that they 'fail to understand'. One should be open to beliefs other than one's own.

About the essay itself, I found it a gross overestimation of character traits. The author interprets things mostly out of context, in my opinion, and takes his/her analysis to extremely inflated levels. I have one advice for the author, if he would permit me, try to look at an argument from all points of view.
Moreover



PikaCheeka said:


> And all negs and negative posts just show juvenile bitterness. If that's all you have to offer, please be mature enough to leave. If you bothered to read the whole essay you will find a clear lack of wank. All you're doing is showing your blatant incapacity to read further than a title.



Don't you see the contradiction in this? The message is doing the same thing it is warning against. One should not self judge, but take all comments, whether positive and negative, to improve oneself.


----------



## Seraphiel (Jan 6, 2012)

@ammarz if your first response was like this I would have probably put more effort in mine and it's good to disagree I never said you shouldn't


----------



## SaiST (Jan 6, 2012)

Seriously, guys... If you don't have any interest in the subject material, or have nothing constructive to contribute to the thread, then don't reply.

I know it's hard, but you can do it! I *believe* in you! 

Pika, I'm not that huge of an Itachi fan, but I can really appreciate the effort that went into whippin' this thread up. Good job!


----------



## ammarz (Jan 6, 2012)

Seraphiel said:


> As of right now it's you and me.
> @ammarz if your first response was like this I would have probably put more effort in mine and it's good to disagree I never said you shouldn't



At that time, I was only interested in the point of the article, so I could form an opinion on it. My apologies if I misunderstood you.


----------



## Hero of Shadows (Jan 6, 2012)

Excellent thread 5 stars, I agree with most of it  , and I didn't even notice that Itachi was able to sense evil at such a young age naturally while Naruto had to get that ability from the 9T.

 Still and I might have skipped over it due to it being late in the night here, I see you haven't spoken about the method with which Itachi freed himself from Kabuto's control does genjutsuing yourself even if it was meant for Sasuke not have a deeper meaning I fell that it should but it might be nothing.

 All in all a wonderful essay and I hope you will write more in the future, I have to admit part of it is wanting to see what titles you append to the thread name.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 6, 2012)

Hero of Shadows said:


> Still and I might have skipped over it due to it being late in the night here, I see you haven't spoken about the method with which Itachi freed himself from Kabuto's control does genjutsuing yourself even if it was meant for Sasuke not have a deeper meaning I fell that it should but it might be nothing.



This was covered in the essay.


----------



## navy (Jan 6, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Though he knew it could no longer be used against Sasuke, he believed it was worth the risk: he could leave Sasuke to Naruto while enabling himself to fight Kabuto, who admits that Itachi is  beyond his level.



You linked the wrong page. Actually, they all go to latest chapter...

Regardless, its this over embellishing that I hate when people write about Itachi or any character. Kabuto never said Itachi was beyond is level. Not recently anyways.


----------



## eyeknockout (Jan 6, 2012)

Pika I agree with everything, + reps and 5 stars, itachi is truly laying around the epitome of manga characters.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Jan 6, 2012)

Silenceofthelambs strikes again.  I owe you an in-depth reply soon.

*Spoiler*: __ 






Deiboom said:


> This is now my bible.





SaiST said:


> Seriously, guys... If you don't have any interest in the subject material, or have nothing constructive to contribute to the thread, then don't reply.
> 
> I know it's hard, but you can do it! I *believe* in you!
> 
> Pika, I'm not that huge of an Itachi fan, but I can really appreciate the effort that went into whippin' this thread up. Good job!





Nikushimi said:


> This thread is making me shed manly tears.






Thank you all. And SaiST, extra thanks.



Hero of Shadows said:


> Excellent thread 5 stars, I agree with most of it  , and I didn't even notice that Itachi was able to sense evil at such a young age naturally while Naruto had to get that ability from the 9T.
> 
> Still and I might have skipped over it due to it being late in the night here, I see you haven't spoken about the method with which Itachi freed himself from Kabuto's control does genjutsuing yourself even if it was meant for Sasuke not have a deeper meaning I fell that it should but it might be nothing.
> 
> All in all a wonderful essay and I hope you will write more in the future, I have to admit part of it is wanting to see what titles you append to the thread name.



Thank you! I didn't notice that either until I was re-reading parts of the manga.

I mentioned it towards the end of the history section, where I point out that Itachi seems to have activated his MS on purpose in order to escape Edo Tensei (if he didn't activate it on purpose, he pretended he did). 

The title was partially MSAL's idea. 



ammarz said:


> About the essay itself, I found it a gross overestimation of character traits. The author interprets things mostly out of context, in my opinion, and takes his/her analysis to extremely inflated levels. I have one advice for the author, if he would permit me, try to look at an argument from all points of view.



What exactly do I interpret out of context? The mythology is undeniable and has been pointed out by many readers, even those who don't care for the character. Most everything in regards to the manga is not only backed up by pages and quotes, but has the full scenario explained, which means I am not taking them out of context. If you can give me some concrete examples I might add some further explanation when I have the time to dig out references. 



navy said:


> You linked the wrong page.
> 
> Regardless, its this over embellishing that I hate when people write about Itachi. Kabuto never said Itachi was beyond is level. Not recently  anyways.



Thanks, but it's the right page. For some reason when you click on it you're transferred to chapter 568 though. The URL is correct, though. People who want to double-check a reference unfortunately have to manually change the drop-down menus so that they match the URL I input. I'll probably edit in a different website for all the links later tonight because mangaday sucks lately.

The problem with that statement is this: We've seen Kabuto for a total of maybe five pages since he said that, and he's been focusing on Madara. That's a bit like saying "Raikage hasn't acknowledged Naruto's strength recently" when the Raikage has had minimal panel-time and most of it has been spent in the midst of a battle, where has no time to think about Naruto.



eyeknockout said:


> yes
> 
> Pika I agree with everything, + reps and 5 stars, itachi is truly laying around the epitome of manga characters.



Thanks!


----------



## Ra (Jan 6, 2012)

A few notes. 

-It's quite plausible that Sasuke might end up playing a major part in saving the world with Naruto from Madara. Had Itachi killed off Sasuke, then it's possible Madara would succeed in taking over the world. Is it really a terrible consequence Itachi allowed Sasuke to live? Would the lack of love (Killing his brother) be the reason the world ultimately taken over by Madara? Itachi's humaness in this case is a ultimate gift not a curse.

-Itachi true motive was possibly to make Sasuke strong enough to kill Madara once and for all. He played the role of stealing Sasuke eyes, but was probably subtly suggesting/advertising Sasuke to take his eyes, to bring about a new power to kill Madara? itachi told Sasuke, "Madara was the third individual behind the Uchiha Massacre," and Itachi also knew Madara would be Sasuke's next target after his demise. (I don't necessarily believed Itachi believed his contingent Amaterasu would have ended Madara. Otherwise he would have tried it on Madara at some point.)

- Itachi probably knew Madara would reach Sasuke and thus told Naruto what if Sasuke decides to attack the leaf? Sasuke is a blank canvas that could easily be colored.


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## ZE (Jan 6, 2012)

> Though he knew it could no longer be used against Sasuke, he believed it was worth the risk: he could leave Sasuke to Naruto while enabling himself to fight Kabuto, who admits that Itachi is beyond his level.



Apart from this part being a mistranslation (which should be obvious because no one can beat Kabuto+all of his edos), awesome thread and effort. But I just have to say one thing about the whole ?Itachi is a ?god/king? issue. 

I wonder how Itachi fans would react if someone made an explanative essay of Minato using terms like ?God? and ?Flash? to describe his character. I don?t know if Itachi was a god or a king, but what I do know is that to use terms like God and King to describe a character like Itachi, you?d first have to have some evidence in the manga that the author ever wanted to portray him as such. 

Itachi?s jutsus aren?t the only ones in the manga based on shinto gods. All MS jutsus, including the ones used by other characters, are named after a god. Now, I don?t remember all of the Kakashi threads here, but I?m sure none ever wondered if Kakashi was ever a ?God? just because he had Kamui, and the same goes for Sasuke and Madara. 

I have no problem when people make threads about the uchihas in general and describe their powers as ?godly? since the manga already showed that the sharingan powers defy the reality of the verse Kishi created (along with the fact their names were taken from mythology), or when someone wonders if all the uchihas were demi-gods due to being related to the RS and the Jyuubi. But highlighting Itachi alone as a ?god? ?king? doesn?t seem right, especially if you ask yourself these questions: 

Who has Itachi as their God? No one. He can?t be the God of Shinobi, because the title was already taken. 

Who has Itachi as their King? No one. He can?t be the King of the uchihas, because the title was already taken by the greatest uchiha, Madara.


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## Vice (Jan 6, 2012)

ammarz said:


> I read it and I have to ask what is the point of all this?



There is none, just another unnecessary Itachi wank thread.

And I'm all for an Itachi subsection if it means that these threads will pollute there and not here.


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## Seph (Jan 6, 2012)

> Who has Itachi as their God? No one. He can’t be the God of Shinobi, because the title was already taken.
> 
> Who has Itachi as their King? No one. He can’t be the King of the uchihas, because the title was already taken by the greatest uchiha, Madara.



Yeah, titles given to other characters by the same man who called Hanzo unbeatable in one on one combat. Very valid, I'm sure.


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## ZE (Jan 6, 2012)

Seph said:


> Yeah, titles given to other characters by the same man who called Hanzo unbeatable in one on one combat. Very valid, I'm sure.


I didn't mention Hanzo in my post. He never crossed my mind because I was talking about the God of Shinobi, Hiruzen, who at some point was also the King (hokage) of Konoha. And the greatest uchiha, uchiha Madara.


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## Ghost (Jan 6, 2012)

Posting in five star worthy gold thread. 

May the king live forever


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## silenceofthelambs (Jan 6, 2012)

ZE said:


> Apart from this part being a mistranslation (which should be obvious because no one can beat Kabuto+all of his edos), awesome thread and effort. But I just have to say one thing about the whole “Itachi is a “god/king” issue.
> 
> I wonder how Itachi fans would react if someone made an explanative essay of Minato using terms like “God” and “Flash” to describe his character. I don’t know if Itachi was a god or a king, but what I do know is that to use terms like God and King to describe a character like Itachi, you’d first have to have some evidence in the manga that the author ever wanted to portray him as such.
> 
> ...



*Titles like "god" and "king" are metaphorical here. There's no need to interpret them literally.

If you read the essay, you'll find they describe something much different than what you think.*


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## MSAL (Jan 6, 2012)

silenceofthelambs said:


> [sp]*A tour de force.
> 
> The coup de grace to all other essays in the Konoha Library. Excellent. Simply fantastic!
> 
> ...



Quite an outstanding reply.

+rep.





ZE said:


> I wonder how Itachi fans would react if someone made an explanative essay of Minato using terms like “God” and “Flash” to describe his character. I don’t know if Itachi was a god or a king, but what I do know is that to use terms like God and King to describe a character like Itachi, you’d first have to have some evidence in the manga that the author ever wanted to portray him as such.
> 
> Itachi’s jutsus aren’t the only ones in the manga based on shinto gods. All MS jutsus, including the ones used by other characters, are named after a god. Now, I don’t remember all of the Kakashi threads here, but I’m sure none ever wondered if Kakashi was ever a “God” just because he had Kamui, and the same goes for Sasuke and Madara.
> 
> ...





Actually, the purpose of the thread was not to call Itachi a God literally, hence the quotation marks around the name. The point was to reference that fact that Itachi, more than other character is heavily affiliated with the Shinto mythology, and more importantly the main trilogy of gods most often quoted with the sect, and considered to be three of the most important. 

Also anything else alluding to "god" is done metaphorically, because Itachi is able to control them, through his MS (I know others use the techniques, but this is about Itachi).

The other reference in the title was a pun on the the phrase associated with Bruce Lee: "The man, the myth, the legend".

In regards to the king, again its not meant to be taken literally. Many of the fans coined it stemming from his panels on the throne in the Uchiha hideout, but more importantly, what Pika did do, was use another route, by suggesting the "king" notation be linked to the weapons of the royal regalia, that Itachi possesses. These are afterall, associated with the imperial line of japan.


----------



## seastone (Jan 6, 2012)

Great thread, I would rep you if I could Pika. 

I was a little concerned that the thread would just be Itachi wank but I was pleasantly surprised at the amount of thought and detail put into the OP. There is not much more that I can add other then saying a job well done. 

Although I always found Itachi's statement about death interesting, is that his conclusion based on living a life that makes him wish for the release of death?


----------



## ammarz (Jan 6, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> What exactly do I interpret out of context? The mythology is undeniable and has been pointed out by many readers, even those who don't care for the character. Most everything in regards to the manga is not only backed up by pages and quotes, but has the full scenario explained, which means I am not taking them out of context. If you can give me some concrete examples I might add some further explanation when I have the time to dig out references.



In my opinion, the whole essay is taking things out of context and taking interpretations one likes beyond rational reasoning. For example, the first God part, manga authors, like Kishimoto, use mythology all the time for different purposes. You took it from a simple influence from mythology to mean an 'implication of divinity, strong in Itachi' (maybe not the exact words but the sentiment is there). Frankly, I find this a great distortion.

Same again is the case in Part 2: The Man. You again make something simple as a strong connection to the power of foresight. Yes, one can say Itachi has good instincts like all other great shinobi's.

About your claim that Itachi told Naruto what he needed to hear years is again greatly exaggerated. In my opinion, Naruto fell into the same trap as people who get great power do, i.e. to take everything on himself. In this regard Itachi steered him the correct way like many others characters did, e.g Minato, Jiraiya, Nagato etc. Yet the way you presented was that what Itachi did was extraordinary. It was like all others that I have mentioned. Such hyperbole in consistent through all your essay, in my opinion.

In my opinion, you have over thought too many things and made things complicated when they are simple. Of course, Kishimoto has been greatly influenced by Japanese mythology and his characters reflect that. However, to come to the conclusions you have, in my opinion, takes great leaps in thinking and seems to me a very one-dimensional thought process.

In the end, I would like to say that everyone has his opinions. We are not discussing facts. Hence, there is no absolute right or wrong. To me, this article reeks of extreme hyperbole. However, you are free to disagree.


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## Yachiru (Jan 6, 2012)

Greetings, Peeka.

The quality of your thread is astounding. But yet again, so is the illiteracy of some morons who outright dismiss the whole essay as fanwank.

If they bothered to look at your other posts, they would know that you don't write fanwank.. ever.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 6, 2012)

ZE said:


> Apart from this part being a mistranslation (which should be obvious because no one can beat Kabuto+all of his edos), awesome thread and effort. But I just have to say one thing about the whole ?Itachi is a ?god/king? issue.
> 
> I wonder how Itachi fans would react if someone made an explanative essay of Minato using terms like ?God? and ?Flash? to describe his character. I don?t know if Itachi was a god or a king, but what I do know is that to use terms like God and King to describe a character like Itachi, you?d first have to have some evidence in the manga that the author ever wanted to portray him as such.
> 
> ...



You missed the point of the essay entirely.


----------



## Summers (Jan 6, 2012)

Yachiru said:


> Greetings, Peeka.
> 
> The quality of your thread is astounding. But yet again, so is the illiteracy of some morons who outright dismiss the whole essay as fanwank.
> 
> If they bothered to look at your other posts, they would know that you don't write fanwank.. ever.



I haven't seen much of that at all in this thread like 2 posts, rest mostly praise. This hurts and goes against my NF instincts but since I know Pika aint a wanker and read the entire OP, I agree with what is said in essay. Most of it, is fact anyway, with the connections being made between the legendary Items and Shinto religion. Itachi oozes the stuff. To me though Itachi was simply a kid trying to be a Hero and went on about it in a horrible way.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 6, 2012)

summers said:


> I haven't seen much of that at all in this thread like 2 posts, rest mostly praise. This hurts and goes against my NF instincts but since I know Pika aint a wanker and read the entire OP, I agree with what is said in essay. Most of it, is fact anyway, with the connections being made between the legendary Items and Shinto religion. Itachi oozes the stuff. To me though Itachi was simply a kid trying to be a Hero and went on about it in a horrible way.



You missed the point of Itachi's role in the manga entirely.


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## ZE (Jan 6, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> You missed the point of the essay entirely.



You missed the point of my post. It wasn?t entirely directed at the OP. It was directed at the Itachi fans that in general refer to Itachi as the king/god. Since the OP used that to describe itachi?s character, I posted it here. 

Where did Itachi being a god/king come from? That was what I was asking. Metaphorical or not there are characters to whom those titles would fit better because they were actually described as such.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 6, 2012)

ZE said:


> You missed the point of my post. It wasn?t entirely directed at the OP. It was directed at the Itachi fans that in general refer to Itachi as the king/god. Since the OP used that to describe itachi?s character, I posted it here.
> 
> Where did Itachi being a god/king come from? That was what I was asking. Metaphorical or not there are characters to whom those titles would fit better because they were actually described as such.



If you had actually read the opening posts, you'd understand, as PikaCheeka kindly set aside the time to explain it.

Apparently you missed that, though.


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## ZE (Jan 6, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> If you had actually read the opening posts, you'd understand, as PikaCheeka kindly set aside the time to explain it.
> 
> Apparently you missed that, though.



No, I didn't. Apparently you were the one who missed my first post since I said the uchiha powers is what the manga describes as "godly", not Itachi. If you're going to describe Itachi as a god because he had the MS, then do the same to all of the other MS users... like Kakashi.

As for the crows, that's a subtle reference. There are many of those scattered in the manga.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 6, 2012)

ZE said:


> No, I didn't. Apparently you were the one who missed my first post since I said the uchiha powers is what the manga describes as "godly", not Itachi. If you're going to describe Itachi as a god because he had the MS, then do the same to all of the other MS users... like Kakashi.



In other words, you did miss the point of the essay entirely.


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## hutman (Jan 6, 2012)

Is this dossier more about the external perception of Itachi or Itachi? I didnt read all but I'm guessing the main gist of it was is he a kami or not.

With regard to Itachi's omnipotence, I would say we only judge him on account; the decimation of Kakashi, and the wild enigma that it created. Oddly enough the enigma of Itachi is sustained because of his lengthy absences in the manga. Something Kishi likes to for the Uchiha.

My guess is that he was a god. Not because of his ability, not because of his links to Sasuke, on the actions he undertook or decisions he made. The fact is that Itachi is wonderfully drawn and carries an aesthetic property that is equal to his mythical presence. That sense of unity makes him a god. The cold stare and distant persona are completely removed from the real, as is his charm. A certain rival to Shikamaru to the sanctification of indifference.


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## Summers (Jan 6, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> You missed the point of Itachi's role in the manga entirely.



Did you mean to quote me or ZE?


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 6, 2012)

ZE said:


> No one said he was wanking. I was just wondering from where the whole god/king thing came from upon seeing how people frequently link those two words to Itachi when they could've done the same to all of the other uchihas, especially Madara.



The gist of it is, Itachi acts the part. That's why. His demeanor is regal, his words are wise beyond his years, and his resolve is second to none. Yet he's had moments of vulnerability.

He's a combination of human and divine. That's what makes him a king.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 6, 2012)

summers said:


> Did you mean to quote me or ZE?



That one was directed at you.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jan 6, 2012)

Orochibuto said:


> And I agree it is pretty dumb to go saying Itachi is a god/king. However believe me OP is not on the level of true fanboys, if you saw their replies and threads you would die lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*King.*

*Caution: do not take seriously, for that is not the point of the essay.*


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## Nikushimi (Jan 6, 2012)

silenceofthelambs said:


> *King.*



^Also this.


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## PikaCheeka (Jan 6, 2012)

I appreciate the compliments but this thread is about Itachi, not me. I don't want anything to happen because people aren't staying on-topic.


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## Star★Platinum (Jan 6, 2012)

Well written, structured and a deep understanding of the character.
Wouldn't matter if it was Itachi or any other character, the dedication put into the essay deserves recognition.  Bravo.


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## Gilgamesh (Jan 6, 2012)

Itachi has never been complex or a good character

He's just a poorly rectoned villain

Oh and Nikushimi stop ruining Hokuto no Ken with your awfulness


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## Kanki (Jan 6, 2012)

X Itachi X said:


> Well written, structured and a deep understanding of the character.
> Wouldn't matter if it was Itachi or any other character, the dedication put into the essay deserves recognition.  Bravo.



Agreed. Great essay


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Jan 6, 2012)

Great essay, Pika!  +reps

A couple more notes on the crow/raven symbolism:
-Crows are carrion eaters, and are often portrayed as frequenting battlefields.  And a group of crows is called a "murder".  Both of which facts make them fitting for someone who's killed so many people.
-Because of the above, crows were sometimes considered omens of bad luck or bloodshed.
-Crows/ravens are usually depicted as going for the eyes first.  Which also makes them fitting, considering all the eye-stealing and eye-swapping that goes on among the Uchiha characters.
-In some traditional belief systems, crows were thought to be emissaries from the land of the dead, or able to cross freely between the worlds of the living and the dead.



			
				ZE said:
			
		

> Where did Itachi being a god/king come from? That was what I was asking.



Like Pika explained, the god thing came from the fact that his three MS jutsu are named after a trio of important Shinto deities, and while other characters have since been shown to use those jutsu, Itachi was the first.

IIRC, the king thing comes from that scene at the beginning of his "final" fight with Sasuke in which he's sitting on a great big throne-like chair.  And despite the fact that Sauce is standing there intending to kill him, he's just sitting calmly with his legs stretched out and one hand in his cloak exuding this "LIKE A BOSS" aura.


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## Kuromaku (Jan 6, 2012)

*The Failed Existentialist (need to find the essay)*

Despite Itachi's rather skewed morality, he was, as you put it, old fashioned in his view of it at times.  While he was progressive in that he attempted to look past clan glory, he also was trapped by it.  It brings to mind the old essay about Itachi being a failed existentialist.

At the same time, Itachi's love for Sasuke is warped in part due to his background.  While Itachi in many ways transcended the original methodology of the Uchiha (hatred and power for the sake of dominating), this aspect of his lineage appears to have colored his way of showing his love for his brother.  Itachi became obsessed with strengthening Sasuke's hatred, a trait native to descendents of the Elder Son.

Just like with his personal morality and emotions, this is reflected in Itachi's powers.  Despite possessing objects and powers symbolizing the Imperial regalia, Itachi's roots still lay in his lineage, hence his screw ups.

I suppose that is why Naruto, as an orphan, may be better suited for the tasks of saving Sasuke and the world.  People are products of their environments, and Itachi as influenced by his Uchiha upbringing.  Naruto, having been exposed to a hard life and various individuals with differing values due to his parents being deceased, is able to look at things differently.  Itachi did the same, he just was influenced by his blood.

It is fitting then, that if Itachi is the otherworldly genius to whom Sasuke looked at and sought to surpass, then Minato is the same to Naruto.  Itachi was a genius who in some ways transcended the expectations of his bloodline.  Minato was otherworldly in that, despite lacking a bloodline, his sheer talent more than made up for it.  Both were paragons of talent, with Itachi becoming a pariah despite being a hero in many ways, while Minato was seen as the village's hero in spite of failing as a father in too many ways to count, good intentions aside.

In contrast to Itachi however, Minato chose the village over Naruto.  Like Itachi, Minato took a huge gamble, he just happened to win it.


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## Jeαnne (Jan 7, 2012)

awesome thread like always 


though, i still dont believe that Itachi's history is complete, and there are some parts too fishy to be justified as love...there is a piece of Itachi's character lacking in my opinion, that will make everything make sense once and for all, when its revealed. I still dont agree that the way that he drove sasuke into hate was for love, at all. Plus, he tried to drive sasuke into situations that would have absolutely no return later, and that he could regret forever, for example, kill his best friend.

Thats why i think that kishi will still add some amazing layers to Itachi's character, so his history can come full cycle, making complete sense.


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## T-Bag (Jan 7, 2012)

5 star didnt even need to read it



ZE said:


> Where did Itachi being a god/king come from? That was what I was asking. Metaphorical or not there are characters to whom those titles would fit better because they were actually described as such.


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## Seph (Jan 7, 2012)

ZE said:


> I didn't mention Hanzo in my post. He never crossed my mind because I was talking about the God of Shinobi, Hiruzen, who at some point was also the King (hokage) of Konoha. And the greatest uchiha, uchiha Madara.



Missing my point. Kishi gives a lot of worthless titles to people that he retcons.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 7, 2012)

I just finished reading the essay. I can say that this is easily one of the best essays(perhaps the best one on Itachi) written in NF. I read it from beginning to the end(probably a first for me). I am on mobile right now so I wont be able to elaborate much but there is one thing I'd like to point... Itachi actually anticipated that tobi would survive the amaterasu trap. He never expressed any surprise refarding that. He only admitted that he wasnt sure the extend of knowledge tobi had on him. The reason why naruto has the crow is because of the fact that Itachi had foreseen tobi could have survived his trap and influenced sasuke. Another testament to his divine foresight.


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## Closet Pervert (Jan 7, 2012)

The Puppet, the Girl, the Fool.


silenceofthelambs said:


> *King.*


[YOUTUBE]6gSb2A4mXtg[/YOUTUBE]


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## Taijukage (Jan 7, 2012)

Itachi sucks. poorly retconned villain.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Jan 7, 2012)

I must admit, since Itachi's last showing i got to respect him a litle but still i think that Kishi did a big mistake with wasting Itachi's villain rolle in the manga.
If Itachi had somehow obtained Sasuke's eyes after their fight he would have bein a major threat, perhaps even more then Tobi is right now.
Evil-tachi's goal was to become stronger,kick ass and kill people just to test his abilities.
Mindless killing is always awesome


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## Reddan (Jan 7, 2012)

Very good write up. Will comment more on it a bit later. Just would like to point out something about the royal emblems.

In Naruto the Totsuka sword is a type of Kusanagi sword as well. So Itachi possess all three royal items.

What drew me to Itachi's character is that no matter whether he was evil or good, he always loved his younger brother. He may have been wrong in the choices, but he put the well being of his brother above his own personal happiness and did everything possible to protect him.


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## Marsala (Jan 7, 2012)

†_Camorra_† said:


> I must admit, since Itachi's last showing i got to respect him a litle but still i think that Kishi did a big mistake with wasting Itachi's villain rolle in the manga.
> If Itachi had somehow obtained Sasuke's eyes after their fight he would have bein a major threat, perhaps even more then Tobi is right now.
> Evil-tachi's goal was to become stronger,kick ass and kill people just to test his abilities.
> Mindless killing is always awesome



Itachi could have been the one to take over Akatsuki after Pain was defeated, making Itachi the main villain of the manga in Tobi's place (Tobi himself would not have been needed). However, this would have probably required that Sasuke rejoin the good side much earlier, and Itachi would have been irredeemably evil for no good reason at all, just a psycho like Sasuke's backstory originally suggested.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Jan 7, 2012)

Marsala said:


> Itachi could have been the one to take over Akatsuki after Pain was defeated, making Itachi the main villain of the manga in Tobi's place (Tobi himself would not have been needed). However, this would have probably required that Sasuke rejoin the good side much earlier, and Itachi would have been irredeemably evil for no good reason at all, just a psycho like Sasuke's backstory originally suggested.



Itachi could still be redeemed, in japanese manga everything is possible.
For instance Nagato was redeemed after murdering a whole village,killing babies....etc, Vegeta was redeemed after murdering billions of people and whiping out whole planets, Ryu Narushima from the manga Shamo was redeemed after murdering his parents,.....etc


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## aifa (Jan 7, 2012)

This made me turn to one of Itachi-tards finally!!! Awesome!!! 

Just kidding.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 7, 2012)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Itachi could still be redeemed, in japanese manga everything is possible.
> For instance Nagato was redeemed after murdering a whole village,killing babies....etc, Vegeta was redeemed after murdering billions of people and whiping out whole planets, Ryu Narushima from the manga Shamo was redeemed after murdering his parents,.....etc



Nagato was never redeemed imo... He was turned sorta like gaara but only kids would buy that bullshit.narushima was never redeemed. The author never attempted to redeem him as far as i recall. He kept on doing evil shit. And the manga would suck if he ever attempted auch a thing.


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## Seph (Jan 7, 2012)

Itachi never committed any crimes, what is there to redeem? He did what he had to do.


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## Mr.Blonde (Jan 7, 2012)

By that rationale so did Nagato and Tobi.They did what they had to do in order to bring peace.


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## butcher50 (Jan 7, 2012)

Seph said:


> Itachi never committed any crimes, what is there to redeem? He did what he had to do.



from a in-universe perspective or out-of-universe perspective ?

the leadership ordered itachi to become a criminal for their sakes.

regardless Itachi still wanted to be punished for what he "had to do"

he was forced to do it, but he still knew how messed up and wrong it was.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 7, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> By that rationale so did Nagato and Tobi.They did what they had to do in order to bring peace.



Theirs was more of a personal initiative...

Itachi actually had a government-sanctioned order handed down to him, so, yeah...


---------


This thread seems to be getting a little off-topic.

Everyone should just congratulate Pika for a job well-done, rep him, and 5-star this thread.

As for myself, I've only got one more thing to add:

I don't care whether or not you like Itachi, or whether or not you agree with his choices. He's still a hardcore friend you will never see truly defeated. Deal with it.


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## Mr.Blonde (Jan 7, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Theirs was more of a personal initiative...
> 
> Itachi actually had a government-sanctioned order handed down to him, so, yeah...


Please.The elders could not have approached the youngest and strongest member of the Uchiha clan and ordered him to do what he did without him first being receptive to the idea.That's sheer stupidity,and would have tipped their hand to the Uchiha.
There had to have been something Itachi did or expressed that made them believe he was a viable option.They didn't just go one day "Hey Itachi,congrats on your latest mission.Btw,how do you feel about slaughtering your entire clan for us?"


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## Seph (Jan 7, 2012)

butcher50 said:


> from a in-universe perspective or out-of-universe perspective ?
> 
> the leadership ordered itachi to become a criminal for their sakes.
> 
> ...



Both. It was wrong, but that doesn't mean it was a crime. It's not a crime when soldiers kill other soldiers in cold blood, so why would this be?


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## Divinstrosity (Jan 7, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> Please.The elders could not have approached the youngest and strongest member of the Uchiha clan and ordered him to do what he did without him first being receptive to the idea.That's sheer stupidity,and would have tipped their hand to the Uchiha.
> There had to have been something Itachi did or expressed that made them believe he was a viable option.They didn't just go one day "Hey Itachi,congrats on your latest mission.Btw,how do you feel about slaughtering your entire clan for us?"



You're not wrong, to be honest.

It's what the elders wanted, but Itachi also agreed that it was the best course of action, since the clan and the village couldn't come to an understanding. Now, that's not to say Itachi was licking his lips like Orochimaru at the prospect of killing his clan...

...but he wasn't FORCED to do anything. As a matter of factly, Itachi threatening to expose Konoha secrets if Sasuke was touched, pretty much proves that, while the elders did take advantage of his WILLINGNESS, he wasn't forced to do it. The same threat he gave to Danzou, could have been given to the Elders. 

What's the worst that would have happened if he had threatened the Elders as opposed to just Danzou and carried it out? He would have lived a life as a traitor to his village and an outcast? 

Yeah, well, that's what happened, anyway.


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## Sniffers (Jan 7, 2012)

Very nice thread. Good job.


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## Russo (Jan 7, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Finally comes Susan'o, the jutsu that can supposedly only be awakened if one possesses both Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi; he is the god of wind and storm. It is puzzling to think that he is Itachi's most powerful attack, as of the three deities it is Amaterasu who is most worshipped. However,* Susan'o was also the most unruly and violent, which is fitting given the strength of the jutsu. Ironically, this god was also known for defilement and desecration of land to such a degree that the Oharae ritual was founded. Itachi?s Susan?o is the exact opposite, as it is what purifies Sasuke of Orochimaru?s curse.* It also may be worth noting that Itachi only activated this jutsu upon being struck by Sasuke's Kirin in the midst of a storm.



I would say the entire premise of this thread would be in the above quote, though the bold part is not true "*Itachi?s Susan?o is the exact opposite*", its not his Susano, its the weapon he got and attached to his susano, if Orochimaru had these weapons, would you say the same about Oro? and because this, everything else about god is pointless.


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## mayumi (Jan 7, 2012)

itachi will always be a horrible character to me. he is psycho. the fact that he does everything like killing and manipulating people and pass it off as some sort of "for greater good" shows his own sense of morality is twisted as hell.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2012)

Long Live the king, great essay Op and reps.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 7, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> By that rationale so did Nagato and Tobi.They did what they had to do in order to bring peace.



Nagato murdered people for revenge. And he was partially insane, his greater good goal was flawed from its core. 
What he did was wrong.

Tobi is doing some shit that we can't fully grasp, but his goal includes self benefical objectives as far as I know.



Russo said:


> I would say the entire premise of this thread would be in the above quote, though the bold part is not true "*Itachi’s Susan’o is the exact opposite*", its not his Susano, its the weapon he got and attached to his susano, if Orochimaru had these weapons, would you say the same about Oro? and because this, everything else about god is pointless.



If my grandma had balls, she'd be my granddad.

In otherwords, terrible reasoning.


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## Seph (Jan 7, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> By that rationale so did Nagato and Tobi.They did what they had to do in order to bring peace.



Nagato's actions weren't just for the sake of peace, though. He didn't have to murder Hinata but he tried to anyway. And he had a huge grudge against Konoha.

Tobi is sadistic and just evil, and he doesn't want true peace. He doesn't want a world where everyone is friendly and cooperative, he just wants to put them in an illusion for the rest of their lives.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 7, 2012)

The King rules supreme  as always


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## Matta Clatta (Jan 7, 2012)

This was truly an enlightening read


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## PikaCheeka (Jan 7, 2012)

Ra said:


> A few notes.
> 
> -It's quite plausible that Sasuke might end up playing a major part in saving the world with Naruto from Madara. Had Itachi killed off Sasuke, then it's possible Madara would succeed in taking over the world. Is it really a terrible consequence Itachi allowed Sasuke to live? Would the lack of love (Killing his brother) be the reason the world ultimately taken over by Madara? Itachi's humaness in this case is a ultimate gift not a curse.
> 
> ...



I more or less agree with all of this, but due to the fact that the manga is not complete, I am writing from the current stance of the series. I strongly believe Sasuke will become good and fight alongside Naruto, but it's yet to be definitively determined. We have no idea what will happen there, nor do we know if Itachi and Sasuke will meet again, nor do we know what will come of Kabuto. Therefore those are all things I simply left out. Currently Sasuke is a villain, and he's only getting worse.

I honestly assumed that Itachi wanted Sasuke to take his eyes until Itachi's recent conversation where Naruto. Now I'm not so sure. He did, however, hope that Sasuke would fight Madara, and I also believe that he did some of this partially to make Sasuke stronger. As for the Amaterasu, I'll get to it because others have commented on it.

I mentioned somewhere in the essay Itachi's senses of hope and denial. He fully expected/anticipated Madara would get to Sasuke, but he hoped it would not happen, and his immediate reaction to hearing of it was shock and denial. This of course is to be expected. 



ZE said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I believe Kabuto was referring more to the fact that Itachi outsmarted him/pulled a fast one on him than the idea that Itachi could one-shot him, though honestly, given his master's history and the fact that he is throwing his best Edos away, he should be a little concerned about that, too.

I would reply to this but I think silenceofthelambs, MSAL, and Niku, among others, explained it better than I could.



MaskedMenace said:


> Great thread, I would rep you if I could Pika.
> 
> I was a little concerned that the thread would just be Itachi wank but I was pleasantly surprised at the amount of thought and detail put into the OP. There is not much more that I can add other then saying a job well done.
> 
> Although I always found Itachi's statement about death interesting, is that his conclusion based on living a life that makes him wish for the release of death?



You thought I'd wank? 

But yes, I do think he wished for death. I had a discussion with someone a year or two ago on the idea that in what could actually be considered a very selfish act, Itachi could be said to have subconsciously made Sasuke into his instrument of punishment, death, and redemption. If I can ever find the conversation I'll send it to you.  



ammarz said:


> In my opinion, the whole essay is taking things out of context and taking interpretations one likes beyond rational reasoning. For example, the first God part, manga authors, like Kishimoto, use mythology all the time for different purposes. You took it from a simple influence from mythology to mean an 'implication of divinity, strong in Itachi' (maybe not the exact words but the sentiment is there). Frankly, I find this a great distortion.
> 
> Same again is the case in Part 2: The Man. You again make something simple as a strong connection to the power of foresight. Yes, one can say Itachi has good instincts like all other great shinobi's.
> 
> ...



I'll just number these based off of paragraphs...
1) This is partially why "God" is in italics in the title of that part. I considered doing it throughout the section but considering the fact that a lot of people equate "" with sarcasm, I decided it was best not to and just hoped people would see what I was getting at. I am well aware that plenty of manga authors use sacred mythology in their works, but Kishi seems to focus most of this (and religious references) on a few key characters. Itachi is one. Nagato, who not only claims to be a god but is later revealed to be the descendant of one, is another. The RS is a third, and seeing as he is the Narutoverse equiv. of a god, that makes sense. Madara and Naruto are more or less two more characters with this symbolism to a lesser degree, yet I wouldn't say they have as much as the first two yet. Madara is a self-made 'descendant' of the god, and it's safe to assume that Naruto will prove to be one as well. I can't think of any other characters that have an overwhelming amount of _sacred_ mythology/religious references when it comes to them. Lo and behold, of those characters, Itachi is the only one not directly related to the RS that we know of. 

His symbolism is also unique compared to the others. Kishi was sending a very clear message with him. He is not 'normal'.

2) Unfortunately, Kishi doesn't care enough about 95-98% of the other characters to prove this. The only person proven to have foresight as great as Itachi's is Minato.

3) But Itachi did, because I don't believe anyone else flat-out told him to grow up or he'd end up going down the exact same road that Madara did. Nobody else compared him to Madara in that manner, did they? I could be wrong, but I can't think of any other situation where that happened. 

4-5) I do disagree, but that's fine. Civility is appreciated either way.


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## PikaCheeka (Jan 7, 2012)

hutman said:


> Is this dossier more about the external perception of Itachi or Itachi? I didnt read all but I'm guessing the main gist of it was is he a kami or not.
> 
> With regard to Itachi's omnipotence, I would say we only judge him on account; the decimation of Kakashi, and the wild enigma that it created. Oddly enough the enigma of Itachi is sustained because of his lengthy absences in the manga. Something Kishi likes to for the Uchiha.
> 
> My guess is that he was a god. *Not because of his ability, not because of his links to Sasuke, on the actions he undertook or decisions he made. The fact is that Itachi is wonderfully drawn and carries an aesthetic property that is equal to his mythical presence. That sense of unity makes him a god. The cold stare and distant persona are completely removed from the real, as is his charm.* A certain rival to Shikamaru to the sanctification of indifference.



It's about Itachi. The title was a joke and a play on words that some people took a tad too much offense to.

But I do love what you said there in the bold. You summed it up much better than I could, though I was trying to go for more concrete examples of symbolism as opposed to an exploration of aesthetics. I did consider going in to it, but you did a great job right there.  



Nikushimi said:


> The gist of it is, Itachi acts the part. That's why. His demeanor is regal, his words are wise beyond his years, and his resolve is second to none. Yet he's had moments of vulnerability.
> 
> He's a combination of human and divine. That's what makes him a king.



Exactly.



Akatsuki no Tenshi said:


> Great essay, Pika!  +reps
> 
> A couple more notes on the crow/raven symbolism:
> -Crows are carrion eaters, and are often portrayed as frequenting battlefields.  And a group of crows is called a "murder".  Both of which facts make them fitting for someone who's killed so many people.
> ...



I was very torn about adding more Western symbolism to the essay, but decided against it as Itachi is largely based off of Shinto myth. Crows seem to have more of a positive image in Shinto than in a lot of Western mythologies (they are also viewed as deceptive and trickster-esque in certain Native American tribes), so I worried it would muddy the waters a bit too much.... 

I definitely like the eye-stealing part though. Haven't seen that connextion made before.



> Like Pika explained, the god thing came from the fact that his three MS jutsu are named after a trio of important Shinto deities, and while other characters have since been shown to use those jutsu, Itachi was the first.
> 
> IIRC, the king thing comes from that scene at the beginning of his "final" fight with Sasuke in which he's sitting on a great big throne-like chair.  And despite the fact that Sauce is standing there intending to kill him, he's just sitting calmly with his legs stretched out and one hand in his cloak exuding this "LIKE A BOSS" aura.



Itachi is also still the only one who has successfully used all three. Whether or not Sasuke used Tsukiyomi is still up in the air, and Madara has only displayed Susan'o thus far. 

LIKE A BOSS. Yes, that is where the fandom term came from, no? 



Kuromaku said:


> Despite Itachi's rather skewed morality, he was, as you put it, old fashioned in his view of it at times.  While he was progressive in that he attempted to look past clan glory, he also was trapped by it.  It brings to mind the old essay about Itachi being a failed existentialist.
> 
> At the same time, Itachi's love for Sasuke is warped in part due to his background.  While Itachi in many ways transcended the original methodology of the Uchiha (hatred and power for the sake of dominating), this aspect of his lineage appears to have colored his way of showing his love for his brother.  Itachi became obsessed with strengthening Sasuke's hatred, a trait native to descendents of the Elder Son.
> 
> Just like with his personal morality and emotions, this is reflected in Itachi's powers.  Despite possessing objects and powers symbolizing the Imperial regalia, Itachi's roots still lay in his lineage, hence his screw ups.



I always go  whenever I see a Kuromaku reply, did you know? And for good reason. Then again, I never feel like I can add to them.

ffffff WHY didn't I include some information on the Elder son and make those connections? That's great. Itachi definitely failed to transcend the more human aspects of love, and as you point out here, he was also unable to transcend his lineage. Ironically, the latter ties him to his human roots even though his lineage was once divine.



> I suppose that is why Naruto, as an orphan, may be better suited for the tasks of saving Sasuke and the world.  People are products of their environments, and Itachi as influenced by his Uchiha upbringing.  Naruto, having been exposed to a hard life and various individuals with differing values due to his parents being deceased, is able to look at things differently.  Itachi did the same, he just was influenced by his blood.
> 
> It is fitting then, that if Itachi is the otherworldly genius to whom Sasuke looked at and sought to surpass, then Minato is the same to Naruto.  Itachi was a genius who in some ways transcended the expectations of his bloodline.  Minato was otherworldly in that, despite lacking a bloodline, his sheer talent more than made up for it.  Both were paragons of talent, with Itachi becoming a pariah despite being a hero in many ways, while Minato was seen as the village's hero in spite of failing as a father in too many ways to count, good intentions aside.
> 
> In contrast to Itachi however, Minato chose the village over Naruto.  Like Itachi, Minato took a huge gamble, he just happened to win it.



Hm. This is where I wonder if spending two years being trained by Madara/Tobi rubbed off on Itachi a little, and I don't mean manipulation-wise. Just look at characters like Naruto and Sasuke, who were heavily influenced by the teachers they had in their youth, Jiraiya and Orochimaru. Naruto, especially, had his outlook on life influenced by Jiraiya. Could it have been the same with Itachi and Madara? I'm not so sure Madara even had to push him very much. 

I'll limit what I say in regards to the Minato-Itachi connection because there are already enough angry replies in this thread.


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## PikaCheeka (Jan 7, 2012)

*part 3 of replies*



Jeαnne said:


> awesome thread like always
> 
> though, i still dont believe that Itachi's history is complete, and there are some parts too fishy to be justified as love...there is a piece of Itachi's character lacking in my opinion, that will make everything make sense once and for all, when its revealed. I still dont agree that the way that he drove sasuke into hate was for love, at all. Plus, he tried to drive sasuke into situations that would have absolutely no return later, and that he could regret forever, for example, kill his best friend.
> 
> Thats why i think that kishi will still add some amazing layers to Itachi's character, so his history can come full cycle, making complete sense.



Thanks! I don't believe his history is finished by any means, either, not by a long shot. I don't see him turning out to be...evil any longer though. There is a certain darkness to him, and it's just part of his character. I think his problem with Sasuke was that he put such intense faith into him, he himself was bound to come off as the bad guy. He didn't believe that Sasuke would kill Naruto; if Sasuke did actually kill him, then he was too far gone to regret it. I always wonder if Naruto knew of all of the "yea I tried to get Sasuke to kill you" stuff when he talked to Itachi.

_Amazing_ layers. :amazed It will make sense in the end, as much as it can. Itachi is a highly emotional character. He is also actually...believable in his failures, which sounds peculiar given who he is and what he has done. But because of that, he will never be a perfectly explained, encapsulated-in-a-bubble kind of guy like a lot of the other characters in the series. 




Grimmjowsensei said:


> I just finished reading the essay. I can say that this is easily one of the best essays(perhaps the best one on Itachi) written in NF. I read it from beginning to the end(probably a first for me). I am on mobile right now so I wont be able to elaborate much but there is one thing I'd like to point... Itachi actually anticipated that tobi would survive the amaterasu trap. He never expressed any surprise refarding that. He only admitted that he wasnt sure the extend of knowledge tobi had on him. The reason why naruto has the crow is because of the fact that Itachi had foreseen tobi could have survived his trap and influenced sasuke. Another testament to his divine foresight.



Coming from you, that's a big compliment.  

The Amaterasu trap, which Ra mentioned early, has always been troubling for me. If Itachi actually believed it would work, why didn't he just go after him himself? I'd normally say that he felt he needed to keep up the act until his death, but the way he talks about Tobi/Madara makes me suspect he would have killed him had he the chance, regardless of circumstance. 

He definitely suspected that Madara would get to Sasuke. You're the second person who questioned this so I'm wondering how clear my essay was on that now... In regards to the crow though, I'm just amused that he was able to turn it to his advantage.



Closet Pervert said:


> The Puppet, the Girl, the Fool.



1) As 90% of the characters, heroes included, have been.
2) ?
3) Yes, I can see similarities between Itachi and King Lear's Fool.



?_Camorra_? said:


> I must admit, since Itachi's last showing i got to respect him a litle but still i think that Kishi did a big mistake with wasting Itachi's villain rolle in the manga.
> If Itachi had somehow obtained Sasuke's eyes after their fight he would have bein a major threat, perhaps even more then Tobi is right now.
> Evil-tachi's goal was to become stronger,kick ass and kill people just to test his abilities.
> *Mindless killing is always awesome *



 

You never know. Kishi may have been forshadowing Evil-tachi by calling him E-Touch. He may be the FV.



arednad said:


> Very good write up. Will comment more on it a bit later. Just would like to point out something about the royal emblems.
> 
> In Naruto the Totsuka sword is a type of Kusanagi sword as well. So Itachi possess all three royal items.
> 
> What drew me to Itachi's character is that no matter whether he was evil or good, he always loved his younger brother. He may have been wrong in the choices, but he put the well being of his brother above his own personal happiness and did everything possible to protect him.



Yes - that was the part of the essay I probably agonized over the most because there was some conflicting information. I ultimately went down the route I did though because of the fact that Orochimaru kept his Kusanagi sword inside of him, just as the serpent that Susan'o killed had. Maybe that wasn't the best way of doing it, though in retrospect, I should have thrown in a comment to that effect.

That's one of the major things that drew me to his character as well. It didn't matter who he was pretending to be (or being) and what he was doing; Sasuke was always first and foremost in his mind. Even as he tortured him, he believed he was doing what he had to do for him. His love for Sasuke, probably because it IS deeply imperfect, is probably what makes it the most interesting in the entire series.



Still owe long reply to sotl and replies to everyone past page 4. Will get to it.


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## Mr.Blonde (Jan 7, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nagato murdered people for revenge. And he was partially insane, his greater good goal was flawed from its core.
> What he did was wrong.


So was Itachi.We're not debating that.Some people are excusing Itachi's actions because he "did what he had to do".Well Nagato also did what he felt he had to do.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tobi is doing some shit that we can't fully grasp, but his goal includes self benefical objectives as far as I know.


Tobi wants to 'bring peace'.His ill-conceived notion of peace,but peace nonetheless.That's not really selfish.


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## Seph (Jan 7, 2012)

When did Itachi murder people for revenge?


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## Mr.Blonde (Jan 7, 2012)

I meant the "what he did was wrong/his greater good was flawed" part.Sure you could have grasped that.


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## Seph (Jan 7, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> I meant the "what he did was wrong/his greater good was flawed" part.Sure you could have grasped that.



And? That's completely irrelevant. What makes Nagato different from Itachi is his hatred. Itachi had no hatred whatsoever, while Nagato actively tried to get revenge on Konoha, and he even used Chou Shinra Tensei out of pure anger.


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## Mr.Blonde (Jan 7, 2012)

Seph said:


> And? That's completely irrelevant. What makes Nagato different from Itachi is his hatred. Itachi had no hatred whatsoever, while Nagato actively tried to get revenge on Konoha, and he even used Chou Shinra Tensei out of pure anger.


You are missing the point:





> Some people are excusing Itachi's actions because he "did what he had to do".Well Nagato also did what he felt he had to do.


Yes,Nagato was wrong.So was Itachi.If Itachi's actions can be rationalized with "he did what he had to do",then so can Nagato's actions.


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## Seph (Jan 7, 2012)

> Yes,Nagato was wrong.So was Itachi.If Itachi's actions can be rationalized with "he did what he had to do",then so can Nagato's actions.



You're the one missing the point.

Not all of Nagato's actions can be rationalized like that.

Did he have to trash Konoha with CST? No.
Did he have to attempt to kill Hinata? No.


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## Mr.Blonde (Jan 7, 2012)

Seph said:


> Not all of Nagato's actions can be rationalized like that.


Where did I say that?I was comparing Itachi's massacre with Nagato's 'build a nuclear weapon to force peace' plan.Both did what they felt they 'had to do'.Are you paying attention?



Seph said:


> Did he have to trash Konoha with CST? No.
> Did he have to attempt to kill Hinata? No.


Did Itachi have to do missions for Akatsuki,order Kisame to kill Konoha shinobi,try to separate Naruto from Jiraiya,let Orochimaru live despite being an enemy of Konoha?No.
Did Itachi have to put his brother through immense psychological torture twice?Did he have to put him(and Kakashi) in a coma that required the finest medical ninja in the world--who at the time was not even in Konoha--to cure?No.


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## silenceofthelambs (Jan 7, 2012)

*Supplementary Reading(s):*

*1.* 

*2.* 

*3.*


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## Seph (Jan 7, 2012)

> Where did I say that?I was comparing Itachi's massacre with Nagato's 'build a nuclear weapon to force peace' plan.Are you paying attention?



So what? You can't ignore crucial aspects of Nagato's character and call Nagato a hero. That's one of the most silly things I've ever seen anyone do.



> Did Itachi have to do missions for Akatsuki,order Kisame to kill Konoha shinobi,try to separate Naruto from Jiraiya,let Orochimaru live despite being an enemy of Konoha?No.



Yes, Itachi had to do missions for Akatsuki so Tobi wouldn't suspect him. Same deal with him ordering Kisame around (but notice how no one actually died?). He wasn't intending to capture Naruto in the first place, and we don't know if he let Orochimaru live or not.



> Did Itachi have to put his brother through immense psychological torture twice?Did he have to put him in a coma that required the finest medical ninja in the world--who at the time was not even in Konoha--to cure?No.



Yes, because he had to ensure that Sasuke would go after him and, if everything went according to his plan, Itachi would make Sasuke a hero.


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## Mr.Blonde (Jan 7, 2012)

Seph said:


> So what? You can't ignore crucial aspects of Nagato's character and call Nagato a hero. That's one of the most silly things I've ever seen anyone do.


Where did I _ever_ call Nagato a hero?
Stop putting words in my mouth.


Seph said:


> Yes, Itachi had to do missions for Akatsuki so Tobi wouldn't suspect him. Same deal with him ordering Kisame around (but notice how no one actually died?).


So he was 'playing the part'?Well he was certainly very convincing at it.
Kisame said something to the effect of "even someone as cold as you...".For Kisame,the man who severs limbs for pleasure,to call someone cold,well...Itachi had to have done some truly fucked up shit.


> He wasn't intending to capture Naruto in the first place,


Yet that didn't stop him from trying to separate Jiraiya and Naruto.Kisame didn't suggest that.Itachi did.At that point Kisame was already hesitant to go against Jiraiya.All Itachi had to do is say "you're right,we'll try another time" and go home. 





> and we don't know if he let Orochimaru live or not.


Yes we do.




Seph said:


> Yes, because he had to ensure that Sasuke would go after him and, if everything went according to his plan, Itachi would make Sasuke a hero.


Oh yeah,the Sasuke that tried to have his best friends killed at Orochimaru's hideout was the very definition of hero.
And what about Kakashi?What did he have to be put in a coma?


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## Seph (Jan 7, 2012)

> Where did I ever call Nagato a hero?
> Stop putting words in my mouth.



_Some people are excusing Itachi's actions because he "did what he had to do".Well Nagato also did what he felt he had to do. _

Nagato's actions could've been excused if he weren't so hateful, and that's what you fail to understand. He had a great deal of prejudice and needlessly killed people.



> So he was 'playing the part'?Well he was certainly very convincing at it.
> Kisame said something to the effect of "even someone as cold as you...".For Kisame,the man who severs limbs for pleasure,to call someone cold,well...Itachi had to have done some truly fucked up shit.



He is a very good actor, remember him saying "SASUKE, YOU ARE MY NEW LIGHT!"?



> Yet that didn't stop him from trying to separate Jiraiya and Naruto.Kisame didn't suggest that.Itachi did.At that point Kisame was already hesitant to go against Jiraiya.All Itachi had to do is say "you're right,we'll try another time" and go home.



Don't you think it'd seem a bit suspicious if Itachi didn't do anything to capture Naruto? I mean, that's why they came to Konoha (according to Kisame) after all.



> Yes we do.



My point is that it's possible Orochimaru got away, or some other members got involved, or whatever. We haven't seen that entire thing completely, have we?



> Oh yeah,the Sasuke that tried to have his best friends killed at Orochimaru's hideout was the very definition of hero.
> And what about Kakashi?What did he have to be put in a coma?



After killing Itachi and no longer having Orochimaru on his back, Sasuke would've probably come back to Konoha as a hero who murdered Itachi.

Kakashi was being a pest. =_=


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## Mr.Blonde (Jan 7, 2012)

Seph said:


> Nagato's actions could've been excused if he weren't so hateful, and that's what you fail to understand. He had a great deal of prejudice and needlessly killed people.


You haven't answered my question?Where did I call Nagato a hero?
So because Itachi wasn't 'hateful',genocide is okey-dokey?Is that what you are saying?



> He is a very good actor, remember him saying "SASUKE, YOU ARE MY NEW LIGHT!"?


Yes,comitting terrorist acts does wonders for your acting chops.


> Don't you think it'd seem a bit suspicious if Itachi didn't do anything to capture Naruto? I mean, that's why they came to Konoha (according to Kisame) after all.


Suspicious to whom?Kisame could have backed up his story.They ran into Jiraiya.They couldn't take Naruto.
It was basically the same deal,except without the needless risks.What if Jiraiya arrived one minute later?What if he didn't arrive at all?



> My point is that it's possible Orochimaru got away, or some other members got involved, or whatever. We haven't seen that entire thing completely, have we?


And untill we do we'll have to go by Occam's razor.Itachi and Oro fought.No one else was around.Oro lost his hand and was at Itachi's mercy,but survived.The logical conclusion is that Itachi let him go.



> After killing Itachi and no longer having Orochimaru on his back, Sasuke would've probably come back to Konoha as a hero who murdered Itachi.


A hero who also murdered his best friends.
You also failed to account for Sasuke's coma.Only Tsunade was capable of curing it,and she had been off the radar for two decades?What's the explanation there?



Seph said:


> Kakashi was being a pest. =_=


Oh,well turning people into vegetables is certainly ok if they're being a _pest_.Next time my girlfriend is annoying me I'll just smash a brick over her head.


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## Seph (Jan 7, 2012)

> You haven't answered my question?Where did I call Nagato a hero?
> So because Itachi wasn't 'hateful',genocide is okey-dokey?Is that what you are saying?



Are you trying to change the subject because you're wrong? Don't waste time on trivial details. I'm telling you your entire argument is wrong.

No, if Nagato weren't hateful he wouldn't need to destroy half of the world with his super bijuu bomb. He could've first, for example, threatened the great nations with it, and if they didn't believe him, he could have detonated it somewhere far away from people to scare them. That would have worked just fine, but no, Nagato is a hateful little shit who wants to needlessly kill people.

Itachi would never succumb to Nagato's methods, ever.



> Yes,comitting terrorist acts does wonders for your acting chops.



I'm sorry, but don't you think Kisame would be a tad suspicious if Itachi didn't try to do anything about the Konoha ninja?



> Suspicious to whom?Kisame could have backed up his story.They ran into Jiraiya.They couldn't take Naruto.
> It was basically the same deal,except without the needless risks.What if Jiraiya arrived one minute later?What if he didn't arrive at all?



Kisame knew that Itachi could've potentially handled Jiraiya. It would seem very weird if Itachi didn't do anything to get rid of him. Kisame even stated that he could have taken on Jiraiya, and Itachi said he was tired.



> And untill we do we'll have to go by Occam's razor.Itachi and Oro fought.No one else was around.Oro lost his hand and was at Itachi's mercy,but survived.The logical conclusion is that Itachi let him go.



Occam's razor? You're just making a silly little assumption with no proof to back it up whatsoever. Orochimaru could've just as easily run away.



> A hero who also murdered his best friends.
> You also failed to account for Sasuke's coma.Only Tsunade was capable of curing it,and she had been off the radar for two decades?What's the explanation there?



Yet he didn't, funny how that works isn't it?

Off the radar? Haha, any evidence that she was completely impossible to trace?



> Oh,well turning people into vegetables is certainly ok if they're being a pest.Next time my girlfriend is annoying me I'll just smash a brick over her head.



Itachi didn't do anything violent to Kakashi. It was definitely the best way of preventing Kakashi from getting seriously injured.


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## Crona (Jan 7, 2012)

This essay is longer than your Madara one, Pika 
But its all good since you made a character that I dislike somewhat likable.

I think the reason I dislike Itachi so much is that I didn't understand him. This essay has done a great job emphasizing on understanding Itachi.  If I was to look at Itachi from a different perspective he does seem rather "great" and I could understand the amount of fans he has.  Itachi is simply a gifted that person that surpasses many other gifted individuals. He was put into situations that he had to deal with because simply he was so gifted, and he was honed in by others. Therefore he had to compromise and his intelligence was tested and ultimately he didn't succeed but he had concocted the entire plan for his brother.  In many ways the stuff he preaches such as the arrogance (doing things alone) will only end in misery, is because he had done the same. 

Itachi is not a mere "mortal" because of the level of genius he was, however he's not "god" either because of the many faults he had done which leaves an imprint of a human side to him. In this aspect, Itachi is indeed a unique character.


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## Mr.Blonde (Jan 7, 2012)

Seph said:


> Are you trying to change the subject because you're wrong? Don't waste time on trivial details. I'm telling you your entire argument is wrong.


I'm not changing the subject.You're putting words in my mouth.Everytime you're backed into a corner you change my argument or completely ignore it.That's called a strawman.


> No, if Nagato weren't hateful he wouldn't need to destroy half of the world with his super bijuu bomb. He could've first, for example, threatened the great nations with it, and if they didn't believe him, he could have detonated it somewhere far away from people to scare them. That would have worked just fine, but no, Nagato is a hateful little shit who wants to needlessly kill people.
> 
> Itachi would never succumb to Nagato's methods, ever.


You've said that already.I don't think you're getting what I'm saying here,since you interceded in a debate between me and someone else and I suspect you had no knowledge of it.

*I am not saying Nagato's actions are justified.I'm not calling him a hero.*Is that clear enough for you?
Now answer me this:are Itachi's actions justified becasue "he did what he had to do" and because "he had no hatred".Is genocide acceptable in those conditions?





> I'm sorry, but don't you think Kisame would be a tad suspicious if Itachi didn't try to do anything about the Konoha ninja?


Except the coment "even for someone as cold as you",which Kisame said when Itachi was face to face with Sasuke,not Kakashi& co.,was predicated on Itachi's previous acts,which Kisame witnessed.
So once again you fail to adress my point.




> Kisame knew that Itachi could've potentially handled Jiraiya. It would seem very weird if Itachi didn't do anything to get rid of him. Kisame even stated that he could have taken on Jiraiya, and Itachi said he was tired.


He said "his caretaker is one of the legendary Sannin" and "you might be able to take him but I can't".No it wouldn't have been suspicious because Kisame was already against the idea.All Itachi had to do was agree with him.Instead he comes up with an incredibly risky plan to separate Jiraiya from Naruto.And he had no guarantee that Jiraiya would see through his deception.In fact,if Jiraiya had arrived even a few seconds later Naruto would have lost his legs.



> Occam's razor? You're just making a silly little assumption with no proof to back it up whatsoever. *Orochimaru could've just as easily run away.*


Which he wouldn't have been able to do if Itachi didn't let him.Thank you.



> Yet he didn't, funny how that works isn't it?


I'd call it lucky rather than funny.


> Off the radar? Haha, any evidence that she was completely impossible to trace?


So you're saying that Itachi relied on the fact that Tsunade would return to the village after an absense of twenty years?Do you have any proof?
Answer me this:
-how did Itachi know Tsunade would even be capable of healing Tsukuyomi
-how did he know Konoha would have been able to find her?
-how did he know she would be willing to return to the village?



Seph said:


> Itachi didn't do anything violent to Kakashi. It was definitely the best way of preventing Kakashi from getting seriously injured.


So being in a coma with severe mental trauma isn't serious injury?Here's an idea?Why not continue with regular combat and "pull his punches"?Surely that would have been a more effective way of stalling rather than immediately disabling him with Tsukuyomi?


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## Seph (Jan 7, 2012)

> I'm not changing the subject.You're putting words in my mouth.Everytime you're backed into a corner you change my argument or completely ignore it.That's called a strawman.



How am I changing your argument? I've been responding to your first argument since the beginning =_=.



> I am not saying Nagato's actions are justified.I'm not calling him a hero.Is that clear enough for you?
> Now answer me this:are Itachi's actions justified becasue "he did what he had to do" and because "he had no hatred".Is genocide acceptable in those conditions?



_By that rationale so did Nagato and Tobi.They did what they had to do in order to bring peace._

You did. You said, by my rationale, Nagato's actions were justified. But the point was that you were missing my rationale, which I've been telling you since the beginning.

In Itachi's condition, genocide was the only option, so yes, it was justified.



> Except the coment "even for someone as cold as you",which Kisame said when Itachi was face to face with Sasuke,not Kakashi& co.,was predicated on Itachi's previous acts,which Kisame witnessed.
> So once again you fail to adress my point.



I have no idea what you're trying to say, because your argument makes absolutely no sense.



> He said "his caretaker is one of the legendary Sannin" and "you might be able to take him but I can't".No it wouldn't have been suspicious because Kisame was already against the idea.All Itachi had to do was agree with him.Instead he comes up with an incredibly risky plan to separate Jiraiya from Naruto.And he had no guarantee that Jiraiya would see through his deception.In fact,if Jiraiya had arrived even a few seconds later Naruto would have lost his legs.



1. Kisame would've been suspicious if Itachi didn't do anything.
2. Itachi would've defeated Jiraiya in one on one combat, why would he get Konoha's strongest shinobi killed? That would be completely idiotic for Itachi to do.
3. It was the best option possible, to get Jiraiya out of the picture and avoid fighting him at the same time.
4. How do you know Itachi wouldn't tell Kisame that "the Kyuubi isn't their current target, let's retreat for now"?



> Which he wouldn't have been able to do if Itachi didn't let him.Thank you.



Pure assumption.



> So you're saying that Itachi relied on the fact that Tsunade would return to the village after an absense of twenty years?Do you have any proof?
> Answer me this:
> -how did Itachi know Tsunade would even be capable of healing Tsukuyomi
> -how did he know Konoha would have been able to find her?
> -how did he know she would be willing to return to the village?



I'm not saying he relied on it..  now you're the one putting words in my mouth. Didn't you just complain about me doing that? 

I'm the one asking you for evidence. Show me that she was completely off the radar and impossible to trace. Don't avoid the question.



> So being in a coma with severe mental trauma isn't serious injury?Here's an idea?Why not continue with regular combat and "pull his punches"?Surely that would have been a more effective way of stalling rather than immediately disabling him with Tsukuyomi?



Because it's incredibly risky and both Itachi and Kakashi could've seriously gotten hurt?

Kakashi has no permanent injuries leftover from Tsukuyomi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 7, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> So was Itachi.We're not debating that.Some people are excusing Itachi's actions because he "did what he had to do".Well Nagato also did what he felt he had to do.


ugh no. What Itachi did was right. He eleminated the problem(a terrorist cell), he brought peace. Nagato's plan was to eleminate most of the mankind and hope the rest to stop fighting out of fear. Not only his plan wasnt guatanteed to work, but it wasnt permanent. He admitted so himself.




> Tobi wants to 'bring peace'.His ill-conceived notion of peace,but peace nonetheless.That's not really selfish.



tobi is one power hungry friend who killa people for the lulz. And before his plan comes to fruition we cant know wheter it really is peace or not. The genjutsu plan is horseshit and cant be considered peace anyways.


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## navy (Jan 7, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What Itachi did was right.



What he thought was right. Hiruzen didnt think so, and Danzo and Tobi _clearly _had  motives outside Itachi's comprehension. Guess which side of the massacre they were on.


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## Mr.Blonde (Jan 7, 2012)

Seph said:


> How am I changing your argument? I've been responding to your first argument since the beginning =_=.


Yes you did.Out of the blue you said I called Nagato a hero,which I never did.When I called you on it you didn't respond,and switched it to something else.


> _By that rationale so did Nagato and Tobi.They did what they had to do in order to bring peace._
> 
> You did. You said, by my rationale, Nagato's actions were justified. But the point was that you were missing my rationale, which I've been telling you since the beginning.


And your rationale is wrong,which was the entire fucking point of my post.I honestly can't get how you failed to comprehend what I was saying.

You said "there is nothing to redeem" because Itachi "did what he had to do".I said Nagato also "did what he had to do".Since that obviously doesn't justify his actions,than Itachi shouldn't be excused either.


> In Itachi's condition, genocide was the only option, so yes, it was justified.


I disagree.


> I have no idea what you're trying to say, because your argument makes absolutely no sense.


Either you're lacking in comprehension,or you're just dodging the question.Either way I'm done wasting my time on you.



> 1. Kisame would've been suspicious if Itachi didn't do anything.
> 2. Itachi would've defeated Jiraiya in one on one combat, why would he get Konoha's strongest shinobi killed? That would be completely idiotic for Itachi to do.
> 3. It was the best option possible, to get Jiraiya out of the picture and avoid fighting him at the same time.
> 4. How do you know Itachi wouldn't tell Kisame that "the Kyuubi isn't their current target, let's retreat for now"?


I see alot of statements,yet no proof.



> I'm not saying he relied on it..  now you're the one putting words in my mouth. Didn't you just complain about me doing that?


You implied it.Here's your quote:





> Haha, any evidence that she was completely impossible to trace?


You're essentially implying that Itachi knew Konoha would go looking for Tsunade.


> I'm the one asking you for evidence. Show me that she was completely off the radar and impossible to trace. Don't avoid the question.


You're the one avoiding the question my friend.
I'll ask you again:1. Kisame would've been suspicious if Itachi didn't do anything.
2. Itachi would've defeated Jiraiya in one on one combat, why would he get Konoha's strongest shinobi killed? That would be completely idiotic for Itachi to do.
3. It was the best option possible, to get Jiraiya out of the picture and avoid fighting him at the same time.
4. How do you know Itachi wouldn't tell Kisame that "the Kyuubi isn't their current target, let's retreat for now"?



Seph said:


> Kakashi has no permanent injuries leftover from Tsukuyomi.


No thanks to Itachi.
***
Frankly I feel I've wasted my time debating with you.Unless you stop twisting and dodging my arguments and properly adress them instead,this is the last time I'm adressing you.


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## Vice (Jan 7, 2012)

Haha. MrBlonde is basically soloing all the nonsensical pro-Itachi logic and excuses.


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## T-Bag (Jan 7, 2012)

umadddd


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 8, 2012)

navy said:


> What he thought was right. Hiruzen didnt think so, and Danzo and Tobi _clearly _had  motives outside Itachi's comprehension. Guess which side of the massacre they were on.



Hiruzen was a dickless oldman. He thought it was a good idea to let orochimaru go. He is not a good referance. And just because danzo and tobi benefited from the massacre doesnt make it wrong. Itachi was aware of that fact, he is the One who seeked out tobi afterall. One last time, the ends justify the means.


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## PikaCheeka (Jan 8, 2012)

I really don't want this thread to turn into something about whether or not Itachi's acts were evil/wrong/a crime.

All I will say on the matter is that if referred to as crimes, then it could _potentially_ be considered a war crime. 

If you want to question the right/wrong aspect of it, then it's an entirely different topic. After skimming the arguments here, I feel as if people are using the terms criminal and wrong synonymously, which is not correct.

*Beyond that, take that argument elsewhere.* I could easily write an entire essay on that question but I made a point to leave it out of this one. Exactly because of this.



Nikushimi said:


> This thread seems to be getting a little off-topic.



Yes, thank you. 



Russo said:


> I would say the entire premise of this thread would be in the above quote, though the bold part is not true "*Itachi’s Susan’o is the exact opposite*", its not his Susano, its the weapon he got and attached to his susano, if Orochimaru had these weapons, would you say the same about Oro? and because this, everything else about god is pointless.



I know what you're trying to get at here but I don't think it's correct. Yes, Itachi's Susan'o purified Sasuke. Did he use the sword to do it? In part. He also used the jug. But Susan'o was ultimately the one who freed Sasuke from the curse. Very few people/things could seal Orochimaru, and because of the mythology surrounding Oro and Totsuka, it's very likely only that sword could defeat him.

Essentially, Sasuke could only be purified by someone possessing both the sword and a method of sealing Orochimaru away forever. Seeing as no human can exactly carry the sword, and the other two Susan'o don't have jugs, that kind of knocks the list down to one.

Itachi's Susan'o.

And how is the entire premise of the thread in a paragraph about Susan'o and how in the original myth he shit all over Amaterasu's fields? 



Matta Clatta said:


> This was truly an enlightening read



Thank you. 



silenceofthelambs said:


> *Supplementary Reading(s):*
> 
> *1.*
> 
> ...



This is worth requoting as an expansion off of Kuromaku's great addition on page 4.


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## Magnamancy (Jan 8, 2012)

While you make some fairly lengthy connections on one hand, 
you also make jumps in reason in the other, such as:

"When Itachi defeated Orochimaru and sealed him away, he 
also sealed the Kusanagi, thus gaining it for himself."

... and...

"Realizing that the only way to break himself free from 
Kabuto’s hold, he purposefully activates his Mangekyou 
Sharingan in order to draw the crow forth."

... which are assumptions at best, are the worst offenders.



However, this is being nitpicky in an otherwise 
outstanding work; your thread is wonderfully written, 
thoroughly thought through, and for the lack of further 
alliteration simply fantastically done.

I'd pat you on the back, but I'm going to have to settle 
for slapping my monitor.


Would read again.


----------



## Seph (Jan 8, 2012)

> "Realizing that the only way to break himself free from
> Kabuto’s hold, he purposefully activates his Mangekyou
> Sharingan in order to draw the crow forth."



This isn't really an assumption, the manga indicates it greatly. You see Nagato shouting "Naruto, he's using Amaterasu!" but nothing happens. It's pretty obvious that Itachi activated his MS to use Kotoamatsukami on himself.


----------



## Magnamancy (Jan 8, 2012)

I disagree Seph, I believe that it's just as likely that Kabuto 
forced him up the ante to Mangekyou, and seeing as he 
couldn't control anything he just went along with it to see 
what happens.


At the very least, the most indication we have is him saying
"Let's see what happens." after going into Mangekyou, which
implies that even if he chose to go to Mangekyou he didn't 
know what would happen with the crow or Kotoamatsukami,
or if it would even affect Edo Tensei's mechanics.

What that could ultimately mean is, among his Xanatos and 
Thanatos gambits Itachi is also one for possibly genius Indy 
Ploys, as one such turned out favourably here.



I find this much easier to believe than implicating that Itachi
knew exactly what would happen exactly as he did it, while
functioning perfectly with the risky high level techniques 
triggered, and it ties into his Human side rather than his 
omniscient Divine side. 


Just my two cents.


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## Seph (Jan 8, 2012)

> I disagree Seph, I believe that it's just as likely that Kabuto
> forced him up the ante to Mangekyou, and seeing as he
> couldn't control anything he just went along with it to see
> what happens.



Activating the Mangekyou for no reason doesn't draw blood though.



There's also the two panels at the end, where Kishi draws parallels between Itachi's MS and the crow's MS, it seems like Itachi is activating it's technique with his own MS.

There's also the fact that Itachi wasn't surprised at all when it happened; not a single reaction of surprise, he begins attacking Nagato's Cerberus summon with Amaterasu immediately. He simply says "so this is how it turns out...".

He also says:



"*I* layered a new genjutsu on top of the enemy jutsu."

Notice the I.


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## navy (Jan 8, 2012)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hiruzen was a dickless oldman. He thought it was a good idea to let orochimaru go. He is not a good referance. And just because danzo and tobi benefited from the massacre doesnt make it wrong. Itachi was aware of that fact, he is the One who seeked out tobi afterall. One last time, the ends justify the means.



Hiruzen did not think that was a good idea. Do not fabricate lies. 

Danzo pushed for the massacre for personal gain. He got into Itachi's head, Itachi clearly blinded by his psuedo-pacifism thought what he was doing was right.

Now think about it. How many times did Itachi or Danzo attempt to find a peaceful solution?


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## lazer (Jan 8, 2012)

Itachi is trecharous not godly.


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## Santeira (Jan 8, 2012)

I haven't been in NF for long due to RL thingy, but I found this thread and read it because the OP is one of my fav posters. 

I'm glad I did.

You have made a pretty comprehensive analysis on his character. I'd agree that he actually is a _human _character, despite his powers. A lot of fans though overlook this, a lot of irritation that comes from non-fans are the fact that he is somewhat wanked to god-level.

Anyway, though the idea and the concept behind his character are excellent, I think his character could have been executed better. If the execution of the character had been done well, I'd say he _is_ the best character in the manga. For that reason, I can't. 

Still, your thread deserves rep, so have mine (not that it would make a lot of difference to your rep-power, I know.)


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 8, 2012)

navy said:


> Hiruzen did not think that was a good idea. Do not fabricate lies.


Like I said, what Hiruzen thought is irrelevant. He was a dickless oldman.



> Danzo pushed for the massacre for personal gain. He got into Itachi's head, Itachi clearly blinded by his psuedo-pacifism thought what he was doing was right.


Danzo put Konoha ahead of everything. His personal gain was never his first motive.
And he never got to into Itachi's head.
Itachi made the choice himself. And left Sasuke alive and threatened Danzo before he left the village.




> Now think about it. How many times did Itachi or Danzo attempt to find a peaceful solution?



what does this mean ?


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Jan 8, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> He didn't believe that Sasuke would kill Naruto; if Sasuke did actually kill him, then he was too far gone to regret it. I always wonder if Naruto knew of all of the "yea I tried to get Sasuke to kill you" stuff when he talked to Itachi.



You know, I've wondered about that too.  The Massacre obviously happened before Sasuke and Naruto became friends, and IIRC we don't really see Sasuke playing/hanging out with anyone his own age in the various flashbacks.  I can't help thinking that Itachi knew _he_ was Sasuke's best friend, and so all the "You must kill your closest friend" stuff was said under the assumption that it would mean Sasuke killing him, not Naruto.  



MrBlonde said:


> And what about Kakashi?What did he have to be put in a coma?



I've actually had kind of a crackish theory about that for a long time, pretty much since we got the revelation about Itachi's true motivation.  We know Kakashi blames himself for his best friend Obito's death (thinking that Obito wouldn't have died if Kakashi had gone with him to rescue Rin right away, and so on).  So Kakashi met the emotional precondition for awakening the MS--but as a non-Uchiha, would he have even known it existed?  Even if there were rumors/legends about it in the village, he certainly wouldn't have known the details of how it worked.  And of course, the Sharingan can see chakra and copy jutsu, etc.  So what if Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi knowing that his Sharingan would be analyzing every detail of its function--effectively giving Kakashi a chance to copy the jutsu?  What if Itachi used MS on Kakashi _in order to teach it to him_?

I can just see it now...
Naruto: Man, this training is soooooooo hard!
Kakashi: Yeah, well, I got tortured for three friggin' days to learn _my_ ultimate jutsu, so you can just shut up and deal.


----------



## Magnamancy (Jan 8, 2012)

Seph said:


> Activating the Mangekyou for no reason doesn't draw blood though.
> 
> 
> 
> There's also the two panels at the end, where Kishi draws parallels between Itachi's MS and the crow's MS, it seems like Itachi is activating it's technique with his own MS.



I disagree, given Nagato's warning I think it's very likely 
that he was actually prepping Amaterasu, because he 
literally had to attack, but the crow and Kotoamatsukami 
interrupted it, being what he wanted to see if it would 
happen.



Seph said:


> There's also the fact that Itachi wasn't surprised at all when it happened; not a single reaction of surprise, he begins attacking Nagato's Cerberus summon with Amaterasu immediately. He simply says "so this is how it turns out...".
> 
> He also says:
> 
> ...



You're right, he did essentially do it, being the one who 
set up the specific Kotoamatsukami and possibly choosing 
to go Mangekyou, and likely anticipated this as a possible 
outcome hence not being surprised, so I must concede 
that point.


The gripe I have is with:
_"Realizing that the only way to break himself free from
Kabuto’s hold, he purposefully activates his Mangekyou
Sharingan in order to draw the crow forth."_


All I believe is that he wasn't sure of what would happen
as among what did happen, as for all hew knew about ET 
other possibilities included:

- Edo Tensei's mechanic's not working through a manner 
of control Genjutsu and voiding Kotoamatsukami anyway.
- Edo Tensei not being overrideable by design.
- Edo Tensei re overriding Kotoamatuskami with a new order.
- Edo Tensei and Kotoamatsukami conflicting to the point of paralysis.
- Edo Tensei, being not his actual body or eyes, not triggering the crow at all.
- Etcetera.


I maintain that he was having a shot in the proverbial dark 
and hoping for the best, hence is musings as he activated 
the Mangekyou and his response to the outcome.


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## Jυstin (Jan 9, 2012)

My god this was... astounding! Words can't express how divine this essay is. I read it from beginning to end. I've always known about the very deep Shinto/Tengu symbolism with Uchiha, and more so with Itachi. His use of crows, complex and mysterious demeanor, use of illusions, and even the lines on his face make him the perfect representation of a Karasu Tengu.

The technique he used from Shisui, called Kotoamatsukami means "Distinguished Heavenly Gods" ("Koto Amatsu Kami"), and are the first five Shinto gods of creation. His connection with old myths such as the battle between Susano'o and Yamata no Orochi, using the Totsuka to defeat it, and many more symbolic references are just a few of the things I've noticed about him, and what drew me in.

I've actually looked really deep into the other Shinto gods as well because of him, like Uzume, Sarutahiko, Suijin, Hachiman, etc.. 

But you put it into words that clearly paint the picture that, despite my years of arguing and defending him, I could not. This is one of the best reads I've ever had, and I've read a lot in my life. This should should be nominated for Thread of the Month.

Also to add to Itachi's ability to understand human nature - he was able to properly anticipate that Madara would specifically attempt to show Sasuke his Sharingan as his chosen method to gain Sasuke's trust, and accordingly set that as the trigger for his Amaterasu trap. And perhaps it was unintentional, Itachi had thwarted Kabuto's plan to use Shisui's eye for resurrecting Shisui, just moments after Kabuto remotely commented on using the eye for himself, by burning the crow with Amaterasu.

Thank you again for increasing my own faith and love for Itachi, while putting into perfect words exactly why I love him so much.


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## Shima Tetsuo (Jan 9, 2012)

Pawns are neither gods nor kings.

Itachi was naive enough to be used by Konoha, just as Sasuke was naive enough to be used by Tobi, with the only difference being that Itachi was persuaded to do things which were far more stupid.

There's no evidence that Itachi prevented a war, he was just _told_ that this was the reason for his mission, when in reality he was just helping some selfish politicians keep a hold of their power and prevent their slaves from rising up. 

Itachi was a cool character, I like him, but all of this shit about him being top tier is nonsense. As a fighter? Sure, he was a genius, but as a person, no, he got manipulated for other people's personal gain, just like any other brainwashed fodder genin.

He'll never be one of the big boys, not in that sense.


----------



## Seph (Jan 9, 2012)

> There's no evidence that Itachi prevented a war, he was just told that this was the reason for his mission,



Why would Kishi lie to us? There's no reason for him to give us false statements.

It makes perfect sense if you think about it. If a civil war started, that would give other villages an incentive to attack.


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## ajinko (Jan 9, 2012)

^ that is only a hypothesis, konoha has been in worst conditions and they weren't invaded.


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## Shima Tetsuo (Jan 9, 2012)

It wasn't "Kishi" who said that the war was going to happen.

How many times have we seen one character's flashbacks and historical explanations contradict those given by other characters?

Logic dictates that wiping out your village's strongest clan and _entire military police force_, leaves you more vulnerable to attack than simply having the military police find replacements for their corrupt leaders. 

Logic also dictates that any _character_ (not author) who suggests otherwise, is using an ancient forbidden genjutsu known as _lying_.


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## Seph (Jan 9, 2012)

Shima Tetsuo said:


> It wasn't "Kishi" who said that the war was going to happen.
> 
> How many times have we seen one character's flashbacks and historical explanations contradict those given by other characters?
> 
> ...



And it's not as easy as finding replacements.. you're so naive. This is a coup d'etat--a bloody invasion--it's not as simple as "finding replacements". Even if they did get replaced, it wouldn't stop them from invading . How stupid. Both the Uchiha clan and Konoha would have incredible losses from such a conflict.

What motive does Tobi have to lie this time? Sure, he had a motive to lie about the Kyuubi.. but Danzou didn't contradict what Tobi said.

If Kishi makes a hypothesis for the sake of the plot, then it's going to be correct.


----------



## Jυstin (Jan 9, 2012)

Some people clearly went right to the "Post Quick Reply" button without bothering to really read this well thought-out and researched analysis. PikaCheeka too seems to understand human behavior to have made such an in-depth essay, looking deeper than most of us could even care to attempt.


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## PikaCheeka (Jan 9, 2012)

Still need to catch up.


*Spoiler*: _sotl_ 





silenceofthelambs said:


> *A tour de force.
> 
> The coup de grace to all other essays in the Konoha Library. Excellent. Simply fantastic!
> 
> I say this without being an enthusiastic fan of Itachi.*


*
Thank you!




			If ever being subject to ordinary human failings and limitations were as grave as it is for Itachi, I cannot fathom it. If ever love were a crime so heinous as it is for Itachi, I cannot fathom it.

......{had to cut for space}

Itachi may be a god, he may be a king, but he is one bent on destruction. Not because of some impetuosity, not because of some lack of understanding, but because he sees and knows too much. He is much too cognizant of the way of the human, and ultimately he is defeated by that perceptiveness. Because he takes away, because he steals, ultimately others take and steal from him. Where he speaks of illusions and pipe dreams to Naruto, he is trapped in one himself. He is not free either. He is a living representation of Izanagi, one who turns his own sanguine illusions into vicious reality.

{had to cut for space}
		
Click to expand...


This post is a coup de grace. Seriously. I've had it sitting around for days and still don't know what to add to it. He is the perfect tragic hero. And I love the Izanagi analogy...build on it.




			...{cut for space} 
 He can't play with illusions, he can't be the puppeteer, because he is the fool, and he is the puppet. But he is not a fool because of a lack of intelligence: he is a fool for being human. For loving. In that sense, we are all fools. He was taught that emotions make you weak; but an absence of emotions make you even weaker. They make you a shell ready to be manipulated by anyone and everyone.

A flawed god, and a flawed king. But a human so compassionate you'd think it was to a fault. And it is. 

"Courage is not a man with a [weapon] in his hand. It's knowing you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what. You rarely win, but sometimes you do."  
- Atticus Finch, To Kill a Mockingbird 

Ironically enough, Itachi killed the mockingbird in himself, as well as Sasuke. But hope never dies, and that's why Itachi won. Because he dared to hope that there can still be happy endings.
		
Click to expand...

*
This, and so much of this. Itachi IS a fool, but only in so far that he is human. In his attempt to isolate himself and rid himself of emotions, he only made himself open to the same fears and anxieties; it seems that because he loved, he felt he had to be punished by it. It's a conundrum I haven't quite figured out yet, but you seem to have a good grasp on it. 

Off-topic, but this is actually one of the two main reasons why I think Madara will break ET. Itachi is doomed to fail again; it would be fitting if he were to break ET only to have it be largely ineffective.

This post is epic though. 






Violet Haze said:


> This essay is longer than your Madara one, Pika
> But its all good since you made a character that I dislike somewhat likable.



In all fairness, Itachi has been around much longer, so the panel time : essay length ratio is still much in Madara's favor. Anyway this is only 200 words or so longer.



> I think the reason I dislike Itachi so much is that I didn't understand him. This essay has done a great job emphasizing on understanding Itachi.  If I was to look at Itachi from a different perspective he does seem rather "great" and I could understand the amount of fans he has.  Itachi is simply a gifted that person that surpasses many other gifted individuals. He was put into situations that he had to deal with because simply he was so gifted, and he was honed in by others. Therefore he had to compromise and his intelligence was tested and ultimately he didn't succeed but he had concocted the entire plan for his brother.  In many ways the stuff he preaches such as the arrogance (doing things alone) will only end in misery, is because he had done the same.



Indeed. Itachi has been taken advantage far more than any of the other gifted or genius individuals of the story, possibly because of his extreme humanity, his concept of love, his desire to do good, his twisted sense of justice, his capacity for emotion, etc etc. 



> Itachi is not a mere "mortal" because of the level of genius he was, however he's not "god" either because of the many faults he had done which leaves an imprint of a human side to him. In this aspect, Itachi is indeed a unique character.



Itachi did have a very good balance of the "mortal" and "godlike" aspects. He never tipped the scales too much in either direction; he was never so perfect as to be unbelievable, but he was always clearly distinct from all other characters in terms of not just genius, but perception and thought process (and of course symbolism).



Magnamancy said:


> While you make some fairly lengthy connections on one hand, you also make jumps in reason in the other, such as:
> 
> "When Itachi defeated Orochimaru and sealed him away, he also sealed the Kusanagi, thus gaining it for himself."
> ... and...
> ...



The former statement was based off of a logical conclusion. If Orochimaru has the sword and Itachi seals Orochimaru, in all likelihood he sealed the sword as well. I can't see a way around it. I supposed I should have explained that better in the essay.

Seph already discussed that with you a bit, but if he didn't purposefully activate the MS, he definitely was able to think quickly enough to take full advantage of it and act as if he had. I actually never saw it as him purposefully activating it until recently, when I re-read the chapters a few times for this essay, so I can see your perspective, too.



> However, this is being nitpicky in an otherwise outstanding work; your thread is wonderfully written, thoroughly thought through, and for the lack of further alliteration simply fantastically done.
> 
> I'd pat you on the back, but I'm going to have to settle for slapping my monitor.
> 
> Would read again.



Thanks!


Santeira said:


> I haven't been in NF for long due to RL thingy, but I found this thread and read it because the OP is one of my fav posters.
> 
> I'm glad I did.
> 
> ...



Thanks!

But IMO, he was executed well enough, at least as good as any character and better than most... I know his believability as a character is often questioned but I think he came together fairly well. There are some questions, still, but he's also still a major player in the series and is kicking around to have them answered eventually. What exactly bothered you? 


Akatsuki no Tenshi said:


> You know, I've wondered about that too.  The Massacre obviously happened before Sasuke and Naruto became friends, and IIRC we don't really see Sasuke playing/hanging out with anyone his own age in the various flashbacks.  I can't help thinking that Itachi knew _he_ was Sasuke's best friend, and so all the "You must kill your closest friend" stuff was said under the assumption that it would mean Sasuke killing him, not Naruto.



I never thought of it that way. Then again, didn't he want Sasuke to gain the MS BEFORE he fought him? That was the impression I got. He may have just assumed that Sasuke would make a friend eventually, as it seems strange that he would encourage Sasuke to kill him twice over (once for MS and once for revenge). That whole thing has always seemed a little strange to me though, as he seemed to know that Sasuke and Naruto would fight and that Sasuke wouldn't kill him. At the same time, he seemed to know that he was Sasuke's closest person and that his MS would awaken when he died...



> I've actually had kind of a crackish theory about that for a long time, pretty much since we got the revelation about Itachi's true motivation.  We know Kakashi blames himself for his best friend Obito's death (thinking that Obito wouldn't have died if Kakashi had gone with him to rescue Rin right away, and so on).  So Kakashi met the emotional precondition for awakening the MS--but as a non-Uchiha, would he have even known it existed?  Even if there were rumors/legends about it in the village, he certainly wouldn't have known the details of how it worked.  And of course, the Sharingan can see chakra and copy jutsu, etc.  So what if Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi knowing that his Sharingan would be analyzing every detail of its function--effectively giving Kakashi a chance to copy the jutsu?  What if Itachi used MS on Kakashi _in order to teach it to him_?



Hm. I can't see it, really. I'm not sure if MS is something you learn. If your closest person dies, I think you awaken it if you're capable of doing so. I don't think it's one of those things you can only awaken if you know about it. Then again, Kakashi IS a non-Uchiha, so I guess anything is possible with him.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Jan 9, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> This post is a coup de grace. Seriously. I've had it sitting around for days and still don't know what to add to it. He is the perfect tragic hero. And I love the Izanagi analogy...build on it.



*Thank you. Truly.

I specifically chose Izanagi, and the point about Itachi being a puppet, because that's the exact property of the former: though you can manipulate reality to your choosing, you can't change what happened in the past. Tobi survived against Konan's assault, and went on to defeat her, but she scarred him in such a way no one else has ever done before.

The same way with Itachi. Such a wise, intelligent man, ultimately impotent against the powers that be. He knew so much, so gravely his impending fate tears alone could not suffice his absolute grief and despair; it was murder. The point of the To Kill a Mockingbird quote was that: you know you're defeated, you know it's all over, but you begin that impossible journey because everything else around you is just a sheer impossibility.

The true worth of a man is measured not by how he lives, but by how he dies. Itachi died well, even though his life was one of misery, because he chose to give when no one would give him a chance. He tried to see when there was nothing in sight. And he died to live even though he knew he was living to die. He chose his own path when it had already been laid out for him. He broke free of that illusion in the end, because he was well aware the first step to shattering other peoples' lies are to dissolve your own.

He modified his own reality, despite it being set in stone. That is Izanagi. And that is Itachi.*



PikaCheeka said:


> This, and so much of this. Itachi IS a fool, but only in so far that he is human. *In his attempt to isolate himself and rid himself of emotions, he only made himself open to the same fears and anxieties*; it seems that because he loved, he felt he had to be punished by it. It's a conundrum I haven't quite figured out yet, but you seem to have a good grasp on it.
> 
> Off-topic, but this is actually one of the two main reasons why I think Madara will break ET. Itachi is doomed to fail again; it would be fitting if he were to break ET only to have it be largely ineffective.
> 
> This post is epic though.



*Exactly! And that is why Itachi is such a contradiction. Instead of trying to cast off his brother, he only drew him in further. Instead of trying to distance himself from people like Kisame, it was him they mentioned on their deathbeds. You would think Kisame's last words would have been a lamentation on the old, unknown world, but instead it was a solemn sign of acceptance, a true realization, liberation from deceit. Complete disillusionment. Almost like salvation, which goes back to the heart of your essay. 

(Is it not ironic that in this discussion of Itachi's freedom from dishonesty and prevarication, we mention Kisame, who at the end of his life destroyed Yamato's chains, while referencing Itachi?) Uchiha Itachi was never physically chained in such a way, but you could tell his soul was restrained, and begging for some intervention to set him free. Ultimately he got it. Like Kisame, death brought him eternal respite.

Our final salute to Itachi is in the form of his self-discovery. The moments that make the most sense happen when everything else doesn't; I'm not even sure if Itachi had any such times in his life where he felt he understood things, but (unwittingly) he ended up doing much than he ever thought he would. He never questioned himself despite knowing he was in unfamiliar territory, and always had been. Perhaps a pessimistic commentary on the multivariate injustices of life, but he learned that nobody is there for you. I don't mean to say that there are no people around you who you can count on, but in the end the toughest struggles in life have to be fought alone. Tragedy (perhaps very unfortunately) is the one thing that gives us invaluable insight into life...and Itachi had too much of it, and that's why perhaps he died at such a young age. Has it even been confirmed what that disease was, that ate away at his life? I don't think so, despite numerous valid assumptions that it was tuberculosis.

I, however, argue that the cause was psychosomatic (i.e. an emotional stressor so great it transmutes into a physical effect). And it would further complement Itachi's contradictory nature and character: the intrinsic wisdom he possessed ultimately saved him in the most crucial moments, but ended up killing him because it just wasn't something an individual of his age could reasonably bear. We go through life becoming wiser, smarter, but it could also be said our wills weaken. We find out that the older we grow, the less we know. I think that Itachi once again wholly validates and contradicts this sentiment: as he aged, he understood more of the world around him, but less about himself.

Is he a god, a king, or just a man? And in his heart of hearts, what was his motivation, his raison d'?tre? A fluctuating reality, leaving nothing but contradiction in its wake. A god, for being so weak (human), a king, for being so cruel and tyrannical when his men beg for mercy (playing god), and a man, so strong, so loving, he should be nothing less than a god.

Uchiha Itachi, the symbolic bridge between both worlds. Further emphasized by his status as an Edo Tensei (operator acts as one who is divine when he isn't, but Itachi broke free from that self-delusion as he did in life). Immortal like a god, but still compassionate like a human. And a king of both realms.*


----------



## seastone (Jan 10, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> You thought I'd wank?
> 
> But yes, I do think he wished for death. I had a discussion with someone a year or two ago on the idea that in what could actually be considered a very selfish act, Itachi could be said to have subconsciously made Sasuke into his instrument of punishment, death, and redemption. If I can ever find the conversation I'll send it to you.



Sorry for the doubt :sweat 

IMO I do think that Itachi's actions durign the Uchiha Massrce could be been a display plenty of arrogance and self-grandeur to an extent. 

The core of Itachi's betrayal of his clan due to a trauma of war he suffered when he was young. That he himself had to end the life of everyone in the clan besides his brother. That he Itachi felt that he should ditact how his brother should live his life, in misery and hared so he can get stronger without considering his opinion on the matter. Presumably that Itachi reasoned he knew what was best. 



> If you fixate your attentions onto your 'self', becoming arrogant and forgetting others...you'll one day become like Madara. No matter how strong you become, don't try to bear the weight by yourself. You will fail….



I do think that Itachis here speaks of experience. That he himself was arrogant when he was younger, look at the list of things he tired achieve on his own:

-Stop the Uchiha Clan 
-Save Konoha from a fourth war
-Undermine Akatsuki from inside
-Turn Sasuke into a hero
-Take down Madara
-Keep it all a secret

Some had mixed results and other parts failed completely(not entirely Itachi's fault but achieving so many goals was anyway nigh-impossible).


----------



## Amatérasu’s Son (Jan 10, 2012)

OH MY GOD I'M BACK BITCHEEEEEEES!!!!!!

Oi, Sumimasen, for my lateness. With no new chapter I took some time off to beat the ever loving crap out of Batman Arkham City. Very gratifying...very dark though...kinda like Transformers Dark of the Moon. That's life in Gotham City, you don't like it run to Bludhaven.

As expected of a scholar Pika another another brilliant professorial display of intelligence, research, and hard work. I am pleased.  But hardly surprised, you're kind of like BioWare in your quality.

I feel inspired to do a similar piece for Naruto when this shows over  Unfortunately I have all the motivation of a young Shikamaru. Still, it was a wonderful piece.

My only criticism is that you used the translation I hate the most. I believe that for the continuity and the elegance, "_I'm sorry Sasuke, there won't be a next time._" is superior in all respects. It makes it a play on the words he's been saying all his life. But that's a matter of taste I suppose.

I disagree with the installment of him as King also. I know I've said it many times, as "God bless the King" is just too good not to use. But ultimately Itachi wasn't anywhere near a King. In fact it's almost insulting to refer to him as a king. Not King, nor Royal, nor noble, or even champion. Itachi was a soldier. A plain old simple soldier. That did terrible things, on behalf of other people, for the person he cared about most. Nothing more human that that.

Another thing...


> People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be merely "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts...Their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?


This is something that if you expand it, describes large aspects of Naruto himself. 

He lived his life bound by what was correct and true. Everyone hated him for no good reason. Yet it was an illusion as he never actually knew why. But then he rejected that reality... and substituted his own. In his world he could excel, and gain respect and acknowledgment, and force the world through sheer force of will to accept him and his view. Then he proceeded to bring people into his world and his way of thinking. By showing them, and convincing them to accept, his beliefs. 

And his beliefs themselves run counter to everyone else's reality; a reality of hatred and war and mistrust and power that since everyone believes in everyone is trapped in. 

And finally the most obvious. Madara and Tobi. The Eye of the Moon Plan is this statement writ law of the world. The Eye of the Moon is to impose Madara's idea of what is correct and true on everyone else using an eternal irresistible mirage....and for everyone to live in his world....shaped by Madara's beliefs.

Itachi's words truly describe not only the setting and the characters, but the price of defeat in this conflict. Perhaps he should've been called a prophet, or a Cassandra for that matter.



Akatsuki no Tenshi said:


> You know, I've wondered about that too.  The Massacre obviously happened before Sasuke and Naruto became friends, and IIRC we don't really see Sasuke playing/hanging out with anyone his own age in the various flashbacks.  I can't help thinking that Itachi knew _he_ was Sasuke's best friend, and so all the "You must kill your closest friend" stuff was said under the assumption that it would mean Sasuke killing him, not Naruto.
> 
> I've actually had kind of a crackish theory about that for a long time, pretty much since we got the revelation about Itachi's true motivation.  We know Kakashi blames himself for his best friend Obito's death (thinking that Obito wouldn't have died if Kakashi had gone with him to rescue Rin right away, and so on).  So Kakashi met the emotional precondition for awakening the MS--but as a non-Uchiha, would he have even known it existed?  Even if there were rumors/legends about it in the village, he certainly wouldn't have known the details of how it worked.  And of course, the Sharingan can see chakra and copy jutsu, etc.  So what if Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi knowing that his Sharingan would be analyzing every detail of its function--effectively giving Kakashi a chance to copy the jutsu?  What if Itachi used MS on Kakashi _in order to teach it to him_?
> 
> ...



Y'know, I've considered that... it's possible. Kakashi already knew about the Mangekyo, and he's crafty enough to try and copy it. But I'm not sure that even Itachi believed that a non-Uchiha could acquire the most advanced level of their bloodline. It's a pretty ludicrous proposition frankly. To unlock the highest level of a genetic ability that you don't actually have. That's Kakashi's capacity though.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Jan 11, 2012)

Picking up a couple now. Still need to reply to 4 (lros, sotl, mm, and as).



Jυstin said:


> My god this was... astounding! Words can't express how divine this essay is. I read it from beginning to end. I've always known about the very deep Shinto/Tengu symbolism with Uchiha, and more so with Itachi. His use of crows, complex and mysterious demeanor, use of illusions, and even the lines on his face make him the perfect representation of a Karasu Tengu.
> 
> The technique he used from Shisui, called Kotoamatsukami means "Distinguished Heavenly Gods" ("Koto Amatsu Kami"), and are the first five Shinto gods of creation. His connection with old myths such as the battle between Susano'o and Yamata no Orochi, using the Totsuka to defeat it, and many more symbolic references are just a few of the things I've noticed about him, and what drew me in.
> 
> I've actually looked really deep into the other Shinto gods as well because of him, like Uzume, Sarutahiko, Suijin, Hachiman, etc..



Thank you.

I hate to admit it...but I forgot to add Koto Amatsu Kami in the essay. I have the notes for it right here, too.  I guess after Itachi fights Kabuto and his role in the manga is more or less completed, I can write an appendix and include that. In regards to the Tengu symbolism, I was tempted to add it, but worried it might go a bit off-topic, so I decided it was best to cut it out and only mention it in a passing reference.  

Madara and Izuna have the closest ties to Hachiman in terms of mythology, I've learned. 



> But you put it into words that clearly paint the picture that, despite my years of arguing and defending him, I could not. This is one of the best reads I've ever had, and I've read a lot in my life. This should should be nominated for Thread of the Month.
> 
> Also to add to Itachi's ability to understand human nature - he was able to properly anticipate that Madara would specifically attempt to show Sasuke his Sharingan as his chosen method to gain Sasuke's trust, and accordingly set that as the trigger for his Amaterasu trap. And perhaps it was unintentional, Itachi had thwarted Kabuto's plan to use Shisui's eye for resurrecting Shisui, just moments after Kabuto remotely commented on using the eye for himself, by burning the crow with Amaterasu.
> 
> Thank you again for increasing my own faith and love for Itachi, while putting into perfect words exactly why I love him so much.



Thread of the Month no longer exists, but thanks. 

When it comes to Madara, I have to admit that I'm not entirely sure that required a lot of insight. Itachi had already told Sasuke about him, and he knew that Sasuke was by nature suspicious. If Madara got ahold of him, the logical conclusion would be that Madara would show him his Sharingan... Actually, this just made me realize that in all likelihood, Tobi doesn't normally keep his Sharingan activated. Otherwise the Amaterasu should have reacted immediately... It was a clever plan, but given the circumstances, it could really go in one direction. Then again, who knows? Madara/Tobi is proving to be very unpredictable.

I never looked at it that way in terms of Shisui, though in retrospect, it may have been on his mind. Hard to say for certain. We do know that Kabuto wanted it (and sadly still seems to think he will get it)

Anytime. 



Shima Tetsuo said:


> Pawns are neither gods nor kings.
> 
> Itachi was naive enough to be used by Konoha, just as Sasuke was naive enough to be used by Tobi, with the only difference being that Itachi was persuaded to do things which were far more stupid.



The majority of the characters in the series have been used as pawns, right down to the titular character. Some, like Itachi, ended up being pawns of villains and are therefore manipulated, but that doesn't negate the fact that plenty of others have been shoved around as well. 

One of the big recurring themes in the manga seems to be that characters don't have as much control over their lives as they think they do. Itachi made mistakes. Very human mistakes (hence the section called "The Man"). I see no reason to hold that against him.



> There's no evidence that Itachi prevented a war, he was just _told_ that this was the reason for his mission, when in reality he was just helping some selfish politicians keep a hold of their power and prevent their slaves from rising up.



He prevented a coup. That is canon fact. It's been argued whether or not he prevented an international war in doing so, but however you look at it, he did prevent a coup at the very least _as far as we know_.



> Itachi was a cool character, I like him, but all of this shit about him being top tier is nonsense. As a fighter? Sure, he was a genius, but as a person, no, he got manipulated for other people's personal gain, just like any other brainwashed fodder genin.
> 
> He'll never be one of the big boys, not in that sense.



Doesn't "top tier" generally refer to fighting? I never heard it in terms of characterization before. And see what I said above about manipulation and being used as a pawn. Itachi has strengths. He also has terrible, crippling weaknesses that ultimately altered the state of the world. He is far from perfect and is not presented as such, which automatically makes him a "tier" above the majority of the characters in the series. 

Only a few others received as much attention in terms of backstory and development as Itachi has, so we are able to 'see' him better. He was far from perfect, and his failures are not written off/ignored, nor are they twisted so that they look good. Itachi's weaknesses make him an exceptionally human character. Those, taken beside the strong divine symbolism and almost ethereal demeanor that Kishi gave him, make him what so many people call "the king". Whether you choose to take it literally or figuratively is not my concern.


----------



## Santeira (Jan 13, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Thanks!
> 
> But IMO, he was executed well enough, at least as good as any character and better than most... I know his believability as a character is often questioned but I think he came together fairly well. There are some questions, still, but he's also still a major player in the series and is kicking around to have them answered eventually. What exactly bothered you?


I actually feel that his character is believable. But I've been thinking, and I feel that almost everything about him is _told_ by Kishi, not _shown_. You know why I feel Kakashi's character is great? It because what made him what he is was 'shown' to us in Kakashi Gaiden. 

I'm not good with words and English, so I hope you caught what I meant.


----------



## Ghost (Jan 13, 2012)

Shima Tetsuo said:


> Pawns are neither gods nor kings.
> 
> Itachi was *naive* enough to be used by Konoha, just as Sasuke was naive enough to be used by Tobi, with the only difference being that Itachi was persuaded to do things which were far more stupid.
> 
> ...



Well, he was a child at that time 

Are you saying Jiraiya or Kakashi at that age would've done better?


----------



## ZE (Jan 13, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> He prevented a coup.



As did Danzou, who ordered the massacre for the exact same reasons as Itachi. And Tobi, who participated in the massacre.


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## Almondsand (Dec 12, 2012)

Amazing.. Didn't read it all but I see this is already good work and findings.


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## Turrin (Dec 13, 2012)

This is really well written Pika. To quote Danzo, the difference between it and the typical Itachi-fan thread is like the difference between heaven and earth (or whatever the hell he said  ). So very nice job from what I read so far (I'm about half way through). 

There are some issue though. First the Totsuka Sword is not an imperial regalia. In-fact it was broken when it made contact with the true imperial regalia Ksunagi Sword. So I don't think Itachi actually commands the true sword regalia. In-fact I have my doubts about him commanding the true Yata Magatama, considering we have seen Sasuke & Madara utilize the same Magatama. The only treasure I have some confidence in being real is Yata Mirror, but even than I wouldn't be surprised if Kishimoto pulled another true Yata Mirror out to give to Sasuke. Also the idea of fake regalia is not all that far fetched considering historically there have been many account of fake regalia. 

Also I have to disagree about Itachi being an original, breath of fresh air, character. The evil brother (or family member) who later turns out to be good story line Itachi has going on has been done many times before Itachi & in my opinion done much better than Itachi. 

But other than that it's a good essay, even though it's not my cup of tea & I think 4 posts long character study on Itachi is certainly stretching the limits of the depth of such a character.



Daenerys Stormborn said:


> I've actually had kind of a crackish theory about that for a long time, pretty much since we got the revelation about Itachi's true motivation.  We know Kakashi blames himself for his best friend Obito's death (thinking that Obito wouldn't have died if Kakashi had gone with him to rescue Rin right away, and so on).  So Kakashi met the emotional precondition for awakening the MS--but as a non-Uchiha, would he have even known it existed?  Even if there were rumors/legends about it in the village, he certainly wouldn't have known the details of how it worked.  And of course, the Sharingan can see chakra and copy jutsu, etc.  So what if Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi knowing that his Sharingan would be analyzing every detail of its function--effectively giving Kakashi a chance to copy the jutsu?  What if Itachi used MS on Kakashi _in order to teach it to him_?
> 
> I can just see it now...
> Naruto: Man, this training is soooooooo hard!
> Kakashi: Yeah, well, I got tortured for three friggin' days to learn _my_ ultimate jutsu, so you can just shut up and deal.


Problem with that is Itachi seemed shocked at the idea of Kakashi potentially mastering MS or even finding out intel about MS.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Dec 13, 2012)

Oh Lord.

It's been Edo Tenseied at a time when I can't spend time giving intelligent responses to people. 



Turrin said:


> This is really well written Pika. To quote Danzo, the difference between it and the typical Itachi-fan thread is like the difference between heaven and earth (or whatever the hell he said  ). So very nice job from what I read so far (I'm about half way through).
> 
> There are some issue though. First the Totsuka Sword is not an imperial regalia. In-fact it was broken when it made contact with the true imperial regalia Ksunagi Sword. So I don't think Itachi actually commands the true sword regalia. In-fact I have my doubts about him commanding the true Yata Magatama, considering we have seen Sasuke & Madara utilize the same Magatama. The only treasure I have some confidence in being real is Yata Mirror, but even than I wouldn't be surprised if Kishimoto pulled another true Yata Mirror out to give to Sasuke. Also the idea of fake regalia is not all that far fetched considering historically there have been many account of fake regalia.



I explained the sword situation in detail, if I recall correctly. At the time I wrote this, Itachi was the only one to have used Yara Magatama, I believe. Keep in mind this essay is from last January, so some aspects will be outdated. 



> Also I have to disagree about Itachi being an original, breath of fresh air, character. The evil brother (or family member) who later turns out to be good story line Itachi has going on has been done many times before Itachi & in my opinion done much better than Itachi.



Opinion is opinion. In the end, Itachi is significantly more original than the majority of the characters in the series, if not all. There is nothing new under the sun, and the same applies for fictions. All characters have been done before. The evil brother goes back to the beginning of man. Doesn't change the fact that, if done well, he can be considered original. Kishimoto clearly spent a hell of a lot of time on Itachi's character, and he put a great deal of effort into his personality and history and general character to make him stand out in the genre of evil brothers. 

Because in the end, he _wasn't_ an evil brother. He was a brother who deeply loved Sasuke, but whose methods of displaying said love were disturbing as hell. In this manga, emotions tend to be simplified, but Itachi turns the table over on that. 



> But other than that it's a good essay, even though it's not my cup of tea & I think 4 posts long character study on Itachi is certainly stretching the limits of the depth of such a character.



Turrin saying someone writes too much? What is this?


----------



## Turrin (Dec 13, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> I explained the sword situation in detail, if I recall correctly. At the time I wrote this, Itachi was the only one to have used Yara Magatama, I believe. Keep in mind this essay is from last January, so some aspects will be outdated.


Fair enough, didn't know this was necro'd.



> Opinion is opinion. In the end, Itachi is significantly more original than the majority of the characters in the series, if not all. There is nothing new under the sun, and the same applies for fictions. All characters have been done before. The evil brother goes back to the beginning of man. Doesn't change the fact that, if done well, he can be considered original.


If you want to take this position than the argument becomes how well done is Itachi's evil family member turns out to be good story line. Personally I think it was done decently (not amazing) up until the point Kishimoto completely shit on it in the "I will love you forever chapter", by heavily implying Itachi's entire motivation and back story could have been avoided if he simply had Sasuke go cry to mommy and daddy.



> Kishimoto clearly spent a hell of a lot of time on Itachi's character, and he put a great deal of effort into his personality and history and general character to make him stand out in the genre of evil brothers.


I don't think he spent as much time as your implying. In-fact i'm pretty sure he copied and pasted a massive portion of Itachi's characterization from Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade.



> Because in the end, he wasn't an evil brother. He was a brother who deeply loved Sasuke, but whose methods of displaying said love were disturbing as hell. In this manga, emotions tend to be simplified, but Itachi turns the table over on that.


He loved Sasuke and was overconfident. When brought back as an Edo his failures replace his overconfidence with humility. To me that's not all that more complex than Nagato, Obito, or anyone else who thinks they can change the world on their own due to their love for some precious, only to than learn they were overconfident and gain humility. To me it's a story line Kishimoto has played out with almost every single major character in the entire manga.

To me Jiraiya & Hanzo are the most original characters and complex characters emotionally (at least off the top of my head), because they have 3 transitions throughout their life. They start out brimming with confidence in their ability to changing things, get beaten down by the world into lacking that self confidence, and finally are able to reclaim some of it at the end of their lives or in Hanzo's case when resurrected. Though I wouldn't say ether of them are all that complex ether in the grand scheme of fiction.



> Turrin saying someone writes too much? What is this?


Yeah I know right. That's when you know you went overboard lol.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Dec 13, 2012)

Turrin said:


> Fair enough, didn't know this was necro'd.



No prob. I should rewrite it eventually now that Itachi is 100% out of the story.



> If you want to take this position than the argument becomes how well done is Itachi's evil family member turns out to be good story line. Personally I think it was done decently (not amazing) up until the point Kishimoto completely shit on it in the "I will love you forever chapter", by heavily implying Itachi's entire motivation and back story could have been avoided if he simply had Sasuke go cry to mommy and daddy.



Which is a huge flaw in Itachi's character, yes. A big part of Itachi's character is that he is greatly flawed, which is one of the things that makes him so interesting, especially when so many other characters are perfect or, when having weaknesses and flaws, have irrelevant ones or ones that end up working out in the end. Itachi's will work out in the end, sure, but not just because of him. Other things and people will have to come into play. 

I feel like Itachi's last words being "I love you" to Sasuke wrapped his character up perfectly. He did not ask for forgiveness, because that isn't in his character. Instead he implied it by turning it around and offering it to Sasuke. Just another subtle maneuver on his part that showed just how much he avoided the whole good guy-bad guy thing.



> I don't think he spent as much time as your implying. In-fact i'm pretty sure he copied and pasted a massive portion of Itachi's characterization from Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade.



No clue what that is.



> He loved Sasuke and was overconfident. When brought back as an Edo his failures replace his overconfidence with humility. To me that's not all that more complex than Nagato, Obito, or anyone else who thinks they can change the world on their own due to their love for some precious, only to than learn they were overconfident and gain humility. To me it's a story line Kishimoto has played out with almost every single major character in the entire manga.



His twisted understanding of love and his bizarre way of showing it is what really makes him unique, at least in the context of this manga. Itachi isn't some perfect, wholesome dude who loves everyone like most of the heroes. Itachi isn't some poor misguided SOB like most of the villains. He's a good guy who has proven to be damn sadistic and cruel out of his own true nature when he wants to be. Keep in mind that the only explanation ever given for the way he tortured Sasuke was that he loved him, and that no explanation was ever given for the way he tortured others in the series. 

He's really nothing like any other character in the manga.



> To me Jiraiya & Hanzo are the most original characters and complex characters emotionally (at least off the top of my head), because they have 3 transitions throughout their life. They start out brimming with confidence in their ability to changing things, get beaten down by the world into lacking that self confidence, and finally are able to reclaim some of it at the end of their lives or in Hanzo's case when resurrected. Though I wouldn't say ether of them are all that complex ether in the grand scheme of fiction.



Not going to argue about characters and who is better/more original, especially not when Jiraiya is brought up in an Itachi thread.



> Yeah I know right. That's when you know you went overboard lol.



This isn't even my longest thread.


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## Tengu (Dec 13, 2012)

Excellent thread man, 5-star.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Dec 13, 2012)

You have way too much time. Hope you get some fresh air after this otherwise it can cause a lot of health issues.


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## ImSerious (Dec 13, 2012)

Oh my god get a life


----------



## eyeknockout (Dec 13, 2012)

ImSerious said:


> Oh my god get a life



only itachi has the power to give life


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## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 13, 2012)

I don't recall composing any feedback regarding Pika's manifesto.

But perhaps, there was none to give at that particular time.

It was what I'd dub "A full proof" argument...

Fully accurate, supported, objective assessments, that are incredibly hard counter, critique, or leave any feedback in regards; beyond the Ya and Na decision.(Definitely a Ya by the way)

Well, not necessarily a critique because you were merely working with, what you'd had at the time.

However, I do feel this aspect "he is deeply, painfully human" could have been more supported and expanded on, had you had access to his FINAL development.

Rereading your entire assessment it's quite clear this aspect, the "Human" aspect is the only area, in which you had trouble arbitrating and expanding upon.(Because Kishi had trouble in this regard as well)

You've expressed the idea of composing a Sasuke variation before, right?

But realistically speaking, you do not need too.(Sasuke story is Itachi and Itachi's story turned out to be Sasuke)

You only need to expand upon the "he is deeply, painfully human" with the NEW INFO, in order to include him within the context of your current Manifesto.

In actuality Sasuke is the only "Human aspect" to Itachi's character...

As Danzo cited himself "He was his only mistake"

You want to convince the readers "He was painfully, human" simply do what Kishi did. Confine him to his to manga role as the older brother of Sasuke Uchiha. Confine him to the strongest bond in which he possessed. Confine him to the only thing remotely about his character in which the reader can relate too. (Hell we even have a panel gushing during the process of killing his parents)

As I cited before, you were probably merely working with what you had at the time, but what I'd like to see is a revised variation of this thread with the FULL CHARACTER development of Uchiha Itachi. 

All and all this is/was a very, very good thread one of the most objective "PRO" Itachi threads out there perfect for  individuals in regards to his character.


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## Hardcore (Dec 13, 2012)

The King's crown is always on his head even in Death


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## Lelouch Vi Britannia (Dec 13, 2012)

I dont like Itachi wank threads...but this is a really good piece of work. Good job man


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## Trojan (Dec 13, 2012)

> Uchiha Itachi: *The God*, the Man, the King.



Stop reading there. ( =


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## Rain (Dec 13, 2012)

TorJaN said:


> Stop reading there. ( =



Maybe you should stop reading things in a literal way. Try it, it's a good text.


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## Hardcore (Dec 13, 2012)

The King deserves this


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## Senjuclan (Dec 13, 2012)

Is this thread wanking about Itachi, that Uchiha kid who was fodderized by a chuunin genjutsu?


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 13, 2012)

IpHrOz - I will get to you. 



Senjuclan said:


> Is this thread wanking about Itachi, that Uchiha kid who was fodderized by a chuunin genjutsu?



Considering the facts that I do not emphasize his strength (which I don't even care about) , and I point out his flaws, it's pretty clear that you didn't read anything.  

It would be nice if people who won't read this would stop wasting everyone's time.


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## Closet Pervert (Dec 13, 2012)

He's no god, he is no king, and he certainly is no man.


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## Turrin (Dec 13, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> No prob. I should rewrite it eventually now that Itachi is 100% out of the story.


You should just update this thread, since it was necro'd anyway.



> Which is a huge flaw in Itachi's character, yes. A big part of Itachi's character is that he is greatly flawed, which is one of the things that makes him so interesting, especially when so many other characters are perfect or, when having weaknesses and flaws, have irrelevant ones or ones that end up working out in the end. Itachi's will work out in the end, sure, but not just because of him. Other things and people will have to come into play.
> 
> I feel like Itachi's last words being "I love you" to Sasuke wrapped his character up perfectly. He did not ask for forgiveness, because that isn't in his character. Instead he implied it by turning it around and offering it to Sasuke. Just another subtle maneuver on his part that showed just how much he avoided the whole good guy-bad guy thing.


It's not a flaw in Itachi's character, it's a flaw in Kishimoto's design of Itachi's character/back-story, because it completely removes the sense of Itachi being forced into a desperate situation, since he could have easily resolved that situation by having Sasuke cry to mommy and daddy.



> No clue what that is.


An Anime Kishimoto admits to drawing inspiration from



> His twisted understanding of love and his bizarre way of showing it is what really makes him unique, at least in the context of this manga. Itachi isn't some perfect, wholesome dude who loves everyone like most of the heroes. Itachi isn't some poor misguided SOB like most of the villains. He's a good guy who has proven to be damn sadistic and cruel out of his own true nature when he wants to be. Keep in mind that the only explanation ever given for the way he tortured Sasuke was that he loved him, and that no explanation was ever given for the way he tortured others in the series.


He seems like a poor misguided SOB to me. I mean what is the difference between him and Nagato, Obito, etc... They all think their plan is a good thing.



> Not going to argue about characters and who is better/more original, especially not when Jiraiya is brought up in an Itachi thread.


Fair enough, just giving my opinion, since you said Itachi is the most complex.


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## Vice (Dec 13, 2012)

It'd be nice to see this kind of an essay written for a character who isn't absolutely awful.


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## αce (Dec 13, 2012)

Most complex character in this manga is Sasuke - not Itachi.
And yes, I just fucking said that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 13, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Most complex character in this manga is Sasuke - not Itachi.
> And yes, I just fucking said that.



No you didn't


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## Revolution (Dec 13, 2012)

If anyone dare mess with Itachi, they will feel the wrath of Sasuke's blade and fury.


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## Vice (Dec 13, 2012)

I don't know if the most complex character is Sasuke or not but it certainly isn't Itachi.


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## Kamikorosu (Dec 13, 2012)

Nice done, that King's analysis is perfect, he clearly is the most complex char in this manga but haters will never admit it.

Btw 5 stars thread


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## AvengeRpro (Dec 13, 2012)

Vice said:


> I don't know if the most complex character is Sasuke or not but it certainly isn't Itachi.



who else


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## UltimateDeadpool (Dec 13, 2012)

I disagree with the rampant propaganda and I feel that the joke has gone way too far.


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Dec 13, 2012)

I agree with the people who've said that you should make a new version of this essay that accounts for the additional development Itachi got as an Edo Tensei (especially what we found out about Danzou going behind Sarutobi's back to convince Itachi to go through with the Massacre, and the different view of the relationship between Itachi and Fugaku that's hinted at in the "You truly are a gentle child" dialogue), and the closing of his story.  

Also, you should totally add this image (made by Choutarou) to the OP:


*Spoiler*: _Itachi on the Iron Throne_ 



[/IMG]


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## αce (Dec 13, 2012)

Well I don't think it's Itachi, but he's certainly _not_ one dimensional like Gai or Yamato for example. Those characters don't really serve much of a greater purpose. Although it's arguable that Kakashi was up there at one point - it's just a shame that he has to be associated with a terrible character like Obito. Itachi has obvious depth - but Sasuke's goes a step further than that. It's a result of his development. Sasuke is the single most developed character in the entire manga.

Gaara _was_ up there as well but he settled all his emotional turmoils and now his life is just "hurr durr Naruto is right!"


Obito and Madara are unique cases as well. I'm not a fan of Obito as he's simply just Nagato and adopted the ideology of someone else based on his own lack of stability. But Madara's backstory is needed. If I'm right, he'll be up there too if he isn't already. His philosophy is interesting and is based on reality somewhat. Hope doesn't really exist _in the ninja world (_Which is why it either needs to be eradicated or changed) and although it doesn't justify putting everyone on the planet in Tsukiyomi, he did have the ability to comprehend, like Hashirama did to an extent, that the world is fucked up. While Naruto also realized this after listening to Nagato's story, his answers to the problem so far have been mediocre at best. If I was in court Madara would have won his case by now.

For a man so obsessed with power, I'm beggining to wonder why he wants to end it all given the fact that he's the single strongest entity in the manga at this point. His life must have been shittier than we think.


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## Star★Platinum (Dec 13, 2012)

. That is all. That is all.


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## Closet Pervert (Dec 13, 2012)

Vice said:


> I don't know if the most complex character is Sasuke or not but it certainly isn't Itachi.


Maybe they meant "convoluted" and "contradictory".


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## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 13, 2012)

Senjuclan said:


> Is this thread wanking about Itachi, that Uchiha kid who was fodderized by a chuunin genjutsu?


It is certainly not about the dumbass that weakened his village by giving out Bijuu to his enemies like candy.


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## Immortal (Dec 14, 2012)

This was a fantastic read Pika, great work.


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## godsangel13 (Dec 14, 2012)

ammarz said:


> I read it and I have to ask what is the point of all this?



To appreciate Itachi, the God of all Gods, the Man, and the Once and Future King


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## godsangel13 (Dec 14, 2012)

silenceofthelambs said:


> *A tour de force.
> 
> The coup de grace to all other essays in the Konoha Library. Excellent. Simply fantastic!
> 
> ...



_If ever being subject to ordinary human failings and limitations were as grave as it is for Itachi, I cannot fathom it. If ever love were a crime so heinous as it is for Itachi, I cannot fathom it._

Very well phrased. His complexity is what makes him my favourite character.

_*However, only Itachi could be so selfless, so unspeakably loving so as to give up his own happiness, his own dreams, his own aspirations, for the sake of another. *_

Seconded. His altruism is undoubtedly one of the many main reasons his character is so loved.

_A flawed god, and a flawed king._

(Y) (Y)

+ REP


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 14, 2012)

^ silenceofthelambs was one of the best posters ever to hit the KL. I truly miss him still.



Vice said:


> It'd be nice to see this kind of an essay written for a character who isn't absolutely awful.



I did one for Madara years ago. I need to do a completely new one for him. 

I'll eventually get to Sasuke, too.

Don't know if they count as "awful" for you, too, but you're free to read whenever I get around to it.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yea I really do need to work on that part a bit, and now that Sasuke's character has been completed, I really have the material to expound upon it. 

In regards to loving Sasuke being the only "human" aspect of Itachi, isn't that enough? What more is humanity, really? 



Turrin said:


> You should just update this thread, since it was necro'd anyway.



If this thread is still kicking around a week from now I'll update it. I have a shitload of papers due next week on top of finals. Like I said. This was necroed at a bad time. 



> It's not a flaw in Itachi's character, it's a flaw in Kishimoto's design of Itachi's character/back-story, because it completely removes the sense of Itachi being forced into a desperate situation, since he could have easily resolved that situation by having Sasuke cry to mommy and daddy.



Not really. Itachi still felt forced into a desperate situation and made a stupid decision.



> An Anime Kishimoto admits to drawing inspiration from
> 
> He seems like a poor misguided SOB to me. I mean what is the difference between him and Nagato, Obito, etc... They all think their plan is a good thing.



I think Itachi knew his plan wasn't a very good one.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 14, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> In regards to loving Sasuke being the only "human" aspect of Itachi, isn't that enough? What more is humanity, really?


Yes, it is.

But it's not me you're trying or need to convince.

I'd imagine the amount of effort you put behind it, was not only to just pay tribute to a character, but actually quell some of the "Myths" surrounding his character.(which is quite frustrating)


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## Looniie (Dec 14, 2012)

That was awesome read and you definitely should write more character "essays" and an updated one for Itachi too


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## Bontakun (Dec 14, 2012)

I didn't realize Itachi fandom went so deep. Thanks for the the Japanese folklore lesson at least 

I will now analyze Itachi as a man.

1. Was Itachi a good ninja? *yes*
2. Was Itachi a good Shounen ideal hero? *no*
3. Was Itachi a good family member? *no*

4. Was Itachi a good communist? *yes*
5. Is Itachi a good character? *???*

*1. Was Itachi a good ninja?*

For example, Ao and pre-Akatsuki-Kisame were good ninjas. They didn't go around screaming about "my way of the ninja" or "abandoning your comrades is trash", they knew they were soldiers and did their thing well.

This is borderline, but yes. There's two things a ninja should be loyal to, his clan and his village. The old-old school ninja did not even have a village. A ninja should be as loyal to his clan as he his to his village. Since his clan had a legitimate grievance against the village, being ostracized and treated with suspicion, he could not sided with the clan too. But he wasn't in a position to be loyal to both, so he had to choose. As a ninja, we can't fault him for his action. At least he carried out his mission extremely well, always protecting the truth and living as an exile in tough conditions. Even catching AIDS from being ass-raped by Akatsuki criminals.

*2. Was Itachi a good Shounen ideal hero?*
I've talked about genocide to death, so I'm not going to talk about it here.
What I will talk about is oppression and censorship. Uchiha clan wanted more political and personal freedom, but Itachi supported the village that was oppressing them. When they tried to speak out with a coup, Itachi killed them all and prevented the truth from being heard. This is censorship. Shounen ideals love freedom, so no he was an awful Shounen hero. He's also an awful humanitarian by extension.

*3. Was Itachi a good family member?*
No. He saved his brother, but he killed his mother and father to do it. And he turned his brother into a revenge machine so he could have a way to escape his guilt when he died at his brother's hands.

*4. Was Itachi a good communist?*
Absolute loyalty to his country. Used mass murder, censorship, and oppression. Yes he was a great communist. Mao Zedong and Joseph Stalin would be proud.

*5. Was Itachi a good character?*
He is complex, which is good. But did Kishimoto handle the complexity well? Not really. He killed his clan to protect their honor? That's totally bullshit. Pissed off a lot of readers. No he's not a good character.


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## Funta (Dec 14, 2012)

what a waste of an ESSAY. I've read story's based on the holocaust that were more enjoyable and better written than yours. so repetitive and full of wank. 

nice effort though. lol

now I would love to see an essay based on the other Akatsuki members such as kisame and former member orochimaru.


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## Vice (Dec 14, 2012)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> It is certainly not about the dumbass that weakened his village by giving out Bijuu to his enemies like candy.



No, it's about the dumbass who sat around and did jack shit while Obito amassed his collection of bijuu at the cost of innocent people's lives.


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## Kaiser (Dec 14, 2012)

Wow awesome thread. Nothing more to say here


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## ?_Camorra_? (Dec 14, 2012)

Look at my sig to learn the truth about Failtachi


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## Saturnine (Dec 14, 2012)

Geez... so many Itachi and Uchiha haters in general yet where are they now?


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## Noobster (Dec 14, 2012)

Read this shortly after I joined, read it again. It certainly has a lasting appeal. Again, nice essay.


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 14, 2012)

Saturnine said:


> Geez... so many Itachi and Uchiha haters in general yet where are they now?



This thread had to be cleaned a couple of times when it was written a while ago. Please don't encourage people.


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## NW (Dec 14, 2012)

Two words. Itachi soloes. 

But seriously, good essay, even though I've only read a bit. Will read the rest later.


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## Punished Pathos (Dec 14, 2012)

Nice book report.

A+


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## Sadgoob (Dec 14, 2012)

Itachi's the most gifted ninja, and most admirable, albeit flawed, character.


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## Almondsand (Dec 17, 2012)

Do anyone else notice? It seems people that favor Itachi appreciate the depth of knowledge and intelligence he showcases. People don't understand, he doesn't need Yata or Totsuka, without them he will still be formidable and the most multi-dimensional character in the manga to date.


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 17, 2012)

Almondsand said:


> Do anyone else notice? It seems people that favor Itachi appreciate the depth of knowledge and intelligence he showcases. People don't understand, he doesn't need Yata or Totsuka, without them he will still be formidable and the most multi-dimensional character in the manga to date.



Thank you. That's really one of the main things I was trying to get across. Itachi isn't about power and strength. He's about symbolism, knowledge, human flaws, and forgiveness. 

+ reps.


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## ed17 (Dec 17, 2012)

I think I'll set my base camp here 

5-star thread no doubt


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## Kaim (Dec 18, 2012)

PikaCheeka said:


> Thank you. That's really one of the main things I was trying to get across. Itachi isn't about power and strength. He's about symbolism, knowledge, human flaws, and forgiveness.
> 
> + reps.



On a VERY serious note,

I approve this message.


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