# Darth Vader vs. Deva Pain



## Ukoku (Apr 3, 2009)

Deva has access to all abilities. Vader does as well. Who will win?


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## Fang (Apr 3, 2009)

Vader telekentically crushes Pain.


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## Lucifeller (Apr 3, 2009)

Deva Pain tries the moon trick.

Vader is not amused and Force Pushes it on his head.

SQUISH.


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## Caedus (Apr 3, 2009)

Force Crush....


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## Abigail (Apr 3, 2009)

Why do you hate Pain?


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## KazeYama (Apr 3, 2009)

Deva tries to use his power, Vader chokes him. What a great match.


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## Wesker (Apr 3, 2009)

Pain:"You can not defeat me unless you know pain."
Vader:"I got my legs chopped off by my mentor and then was burned all over by lava."
Pain:fffffffffffffff
Vader:*telekinetically makes Pain's head explode*


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Apr 3, 2009)

I dont know much about Vader in the comics and games but even just with the shit he pulled out in the movies he should stomp.


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## RAGING BONER (Apr 3, 2009)

Pain doesnt know Pain yet....


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 3, 2009)

Pain is _forced_ to lose this one. 




But seriously, Vader stomps.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 3, 2009)

Lol @ all above.


Pain sends him through several buildings with a wave.


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 3, 2009)

We seriously need a Vader respect thread so we can actually know as to what the hell he can do besides what we've seen in the movies.


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## Fang (Apr 3, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Lol @ all above.
> 
> 
> Pain sends him through several buildings with a wave.



Precognition > lightspeed attacks.
Telekentic strength to land the Invisible Hand on Coruscant, along with matching blows with Starkiller/Galen Marek.

Obi-Wan Kenobi having visions from the Force of Anakin destroy a 200+ meter building designed for heavy weapons testing.

Should I list Starkiller's feats?


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 3, 2009)

From the comics, we know he can throw large sized rubble, snap people's neck with one hand, and isn't as proficient lightsaber duelist everybody thinks he is. (Getting his ass kicked by Darth Maul)


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## Fang (Apr 3, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> From the comics, we know he can throw large sized rubble, snap people's neck with one hand, and isn't as proficient lightsaber duelist everybody thinks he is. (Getting his ass kicked by Darth Maul)



I think I know quite a bit more from both the comics and novels then you.

Wrong, he defeated Maul, who was getting amped by Dark Side Alcolytes.

For one, even in TESB he can snap people's necks and windpipes without using his hands. In Coruscant Nights II, he reprogrammed and altered the mind and memories of a Force-User, Nick Rostu, with the Force.

He was tanking Telekentic blasts from his own former apprentice which are the equivalent to explosions, the same Starkiller/Galen Marek who can easily destroy multiple AT-AT's  with Telekensis and Force-Lightning, survived the Tower of the Death Star's destruction when Palpatine and Galen's final attacks ended. Having a generator dropped on him and slammed through multiple floors of the Death Star, ect...


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## Platinum (Apr 3, 2009)

Vader telepathically crushes Pain... next match .


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 3, 2009)

TWF said:


> Precognition > lightspeed attacks.


To bad his Precognition won't help him.


> Telekentic strength to land the Invisible Hand on Coruscant, along with matching blows with Starkiller/Galen Marek.


Pain throws Vader over the landscape. And match blows with Galen Marek? LOL!


> Obi-Wan Kenobi having visions from the Force of Anakin destroy a 200+ meter building designed for heavy weapons testing.


We're talking about Vader, not Anakin. According to Lucas, there is a major power difference between the two characters.


> Should I list Starkiller's feats?


No, because we aren't discussing Starkiller.

Pain uses his repel kill Vader or Vader smashes him. Depends on who attacks first.


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 3, 2009)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> We seriously need a Vader respect thread so we can actually know as to what the hell he can do besides what we've seen in the movies.



This would be a nice addition to the Respect Threads.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 3, 2009)

Starkiller also destroyed a Star Destroyer with the force alone, didn't he?


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## Caedus (Apr 3, 2009)

As soon as match starts vader crushes the shit out of Pain, game over


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## Fang (Apr 3, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> To bad his Precognition won't help him.



Too bad it will.



> Pain paste Vader over the landscape. And match blows with Galen Marek? LOL!



Too bad Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei require him to prepare using them.
Oh and Force Unleashed Novel takes precedence over the game. 



> We're talking about Vader, not Anakin. According to Lucas, there is a major power difference between the two characters.



Too bad the novels elaborate there isn't THAT much of a power difference and it was mainly due to psychological problems ie in Darth Vader: Rise of the Sith.



> No, because we aren't discussing Starkiller.
> 
> Pein uses his repel kill Vader before Vader can do shit.



Yes because Vader standing up to someone who easily destroys 60+ meter moorings designed to hold up to the physical pressure of maintaining skyhocks does matter.


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 3, 2009)

Madara42 said:


> ^ Starkiller also destroyed a Star Destroyer with the force alone, didn't he?



No, he brought down a Star Destroyer.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 3, 2009)

TWF said:


> I think I know quite a bit more from both the comics and novels then you.


So? Prove me wrong.


> Wrong, he defeated Maul, who was getting amped by Dark Side Alcolytes.


He defeated Maul, everyone, by igniting his Lightsaber and impaling _himself_ through the chest _because_ he was getting his ass handed to him.


> For one, even in TESB he can snap people's necks and windpipes without using his hands. In Coruscant Nights II, he reprogrammed and altered the mind and memories of a Force-User, Nick Rostu, with the Force.


1. He could kill Deva Realm if he snaps his neck prior to being repelled. Both attacks are instant, but the neck snapping has the issue of taking a few seconds. 
2. What is he going to do? Reprogram a dead body?


> He was tanking Telekentic blasts from his own former apprentice which are the equivalent to explosions,


The blast weren't even close to coming to whatever the Tensei is.


> the same Starkiller/Galen Marek who can easily destroy multiple AT-AT's  with Telekensis and Force-Lightning, survived the Tower of the Death Star's destruction when Palpatine and Galen's final attacks ended. Having a generator dropped on him and slammed through multiple floors of the Death Star, ect...


Not Vader so what is your point? He gets his ass handed to him by Starkiller too.



Miyamoto Musashi said:


> No, he brought down a Star Destroyer.



The comic version of SW: FU has Starkiller just redirecting a Star Destroyer after a engine failure. Or so I heard.



TWF said:


> Too bad it will.


Too bad it wont.


> Too bad Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei require him to prepare using them.


No he doesn't.


> Oh and Force Unleashed Novel takes precedence over the game.


Care to quote from the book what is so significant?


> Too bad the novels elaborate there isn't THAT much of a power difference and it was mainly due to psychological problems ie in Darth Vader: Rise of the Sith.


Too bad George Lucas said otherwise. 


> Yes because Vader standing up to someone who easily destroys 60+ meter moorings designed to hold up to the physical pressure of maintaining skyhocks does matter.


No it doesn't, because he got his ass handed to him.


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 3, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> The comic version of SW: FU has Starkiller just redirecting a Star Destroyer after a engine failure.



That and bringing it down onto the ground while doing so.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 3, 2009)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> That and bringing it down onto the ground while doing so.



It was a crash landing. And I heard he was wounded from it.


Madara42 said:


> Did he just triple post.



Yeah, because I didn't expect 3 post to happen while I was typing up my first.


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## Fang (Apr 3, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> So? Prove me wrong.



Jax Pavan anticipating and reacting to a laser (an actual one) from I-Five before it was fired, without realizing it. Jedi reacting, blocking or deflecting masers from Chiss Charric Guns during the Hand of Thrawn Duology and Dark Nest Trilogy, ect...



> He defeated Maul, everyone, by igniting his Lightsaber and impaling _himself_ through the chest _because_ he was getting his ass handed to him.



And Maul lost and never dominated him once in the fight except for the very end.



> 1. He could kill Deva Realm if he snaps his neck prior to being repelled. Both attacks are instant, but the neck snapping has the issue of taking a few seconds.



Telepath's speed of thought > Non-Telepaths.

Vader has Force-enhanced reflexes even outside of his Precognition that give him hypersonic reflexes. Not too mention it doesn't take him a few seconds to break a person's neck.



> 2. What is he going to do? Reprogram a dead body?



He has a mind, all the Paths of Pain have seperate personalities even if they belong to Nagato. Yes he will mindrape Pain.



> The blast weren't even close to coming to whatever the Tensei is.



Too bad Tensei requires several minutes of preperation and Vader can match attacks which destroy Walkers, Moorings and buildings easily from Starkiller.



> Not Vader so what is your point? He gets his ass handed to him by Starkiller too.



That isn't the point. Galen had to exert everything he had to beat Vader, and it was no easy task for him at all. Not too mention Vader took several telekentic and physical attacks from a guy who can do this.



			
				The Force Unleashed167-169 said:
			
		

> The Moorings were larger even than he had guessed from the brief plans displayed by the astromech droid. Its mistress's instructions had been simple" destroy the moorings and the skyhook would be ruined. That sounded deceptively easy, given the amount of fortification and security in place.
> 
> Simplicity suited him, however. He didn't want to think, to have to agonize over motives and methods. He just wanted to act. With none of the joy he had felt while assaulting the lodge and with none of the challenge offered by the black Imperial Guards on Bespin, he plowed through the faceless stormtroopers as a wampa would stride through snow. Sith lightning crackled; bodies broke under his irresistible telekinesis; his mind influenced the decisions of officers, who ordered their underlings to attack one another in droves. None could stand up to him and survive.
> 
> ...


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 3, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> It was a crash landing. And I heard he was wounded from it.



What does being wounded from it have to do with him redirecting the ship and bring it down afterwards?

I thought that there was a five second interval as to when he could use Shinra Tensei again, or are we talking about Chibaku Tensei?


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## Fang (Apr 3, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> It was a crash landing. And I heard he was wounded from it.



He held it aloft long enough to redirect and change its trajectory in the novel. Which takes precedence over both the game and comic.


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 3, 2009)

Other than TWF's knowledge from the novel, there was no indication that he was wounded in the graphic novel while redirecting it and then bring it down.


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## Fang (Apr 3, 2009)

The shockwave knocked Galen out in the novel, which is still impressive because most people would've been liquidated by that blast after it crashed on the planet.


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## Darth Nihilus (Apr 3, 2009)

I need to read the novel


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 3, 2009)

TWF said:


> Jax Pavan anticipating and reacting to a laser (an actual one) from I-Five before it was fired, without realizing it. Jedi reacting, blocking or deflecting masers from Chiss Charric Guns during the Hand of Thrawn Duology and Dark Nest Trilogy, ect...


Precognition to an attack which he has no defense against.
It won't matter.


> And Maul lost and never dominated him once in the fight except for the very end.


Vader had to fucking impale himself through the chest to stab Maul who was on the other side about to finish him off.


> Telepath's speed of thought > Non-Telepaths.


You have it wrong. Telepathy has nothing to do with it. Force precognition. And it isn't speed of thought at all, it's reaction timing. Jedi do not think in the miliseconds.


> Vader has Force-enhanced reflexes even outside of his Precognition that give him hypersonic reflexes. Not too mention it doesn't take him a few seconds to break a person's neck.


Reflexes have nothing to do with Vader snapping a person's neck.


> He has a mind, all the Paths of Pain have seperate personalities even if they belong to Nagato. Yes he will mindrape Pain.


No, he won't. Deva Realm pain is a dead body being controlled through piercings from a puppet-master several kilometers away. What even gives you the hint that there are separate personalities between the bodies? Demon Realm? He has four faces, each with a different expression. That has nothing to do with personality.


> Too bad Tensei requires several minutes of preperation and Vader can match attacks which destroy Walkers, Moorings and buildings easily from Starkiller.


Now you're just bullshitting on both accounts.
Shinra Tensei doesn't require several minutes of preparation, and anybody would agree with me if they weren't sucking Vader-cock. At most, it required a few seconds for him to do his city-buster. Other attacks like throwing three hundred+ ton toads several kilometers, ripping apart the landscape with a blast, and sending hundreds of Naruto's in every direction are instant attacks.

And Vader _can't_ match Galen's attacks. If he could, he would have been able to won. He stood against him for a few moments before being casually defeated.


> That isn't the point. Galen had to exert everything he had to beat Vader, and it was no easy task for him at all. Not too mention Vader took several telekentic and physical attacks from a guy who can do this.


It took him what? A minute to actually be able to do that? And all he did was weaken the foundation? Tell that to the guy cratered several kilometers of land 


Miyamoto Musashi said:


> I thought that there was a five second interval as to when he could use Shinra Tensei again, or are we talking about Chibaku Tensei?


He'll kill Vader in the first attack. If Vader does survive it, it'll take more than five seconds for him to right himself after being thrown a few kilometers.



TWF said:


> He held it aloft long enough to redirect and change its trajectory in the novel. Which takes precedence over both the game and comic.


[/quote]
No it doesn't. The novel, comic and game are all equivalent canon.



TWF said:


> The shockwave knocked Galen out in the novel, which is still impressive because most people would've been liquidated by that blast after it crashed on the planet.



No it wouldn't. It fell what, a hundred meters? It didn't have nearly enough acceleration to liquidate anything. There wasn't even a massive crater.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 3, 2009)

TWF said:


> Too bad that even a bloodlusted Pain doesn't instantly resort to a technique that takes him several minutes to prepare and use. And nothing else he has shown will stop him.


I'll just answer this later in the post.


> And Maul never dominated the fight, point end point Maul is the one who lost and Vader only got stronger and more powerful since then.


Vader lost in a straight duel, end of story.


> Reflexes /=\ movement speed. Force-Users even without Precognition have showcased hypersonic reflexes, repeatedly throughout EU.


I never even mentioned movement speed, I mentioned thought speed. If Vader constantly thought in the miliseconds, nobody could have a conversation with him as he would talk extremely fast and they would speak extremely slow. Iiiiiiiittsssssss llllllliiiiiiiiiikkkkkkkeeeeeeee llllllliiiiiiiiissssssstttttteeeeeennnnniiiinnnnnngggg lllllllliiiiiiiiikkkkkeeeeee tttttthhhhhhhiiiiiiiiissssssssss. 


> How does this matter when Vader has far far faster reflexes/thought processes then Pain,


Because he *doesn't* have faster thought process with out being in contact with the Force.


> even without Precognition or Clairvoyance? Or for that matter do you possess any shred of proof that Pain can do anything while being telekentically throttled?


While his throat is being constricted he blast Vader? 


> They don't have a hive mind


Yes they do.


> and Nagato isn't in the battle dome. Burden of proof is on you to prove he's immune to Telepathy when Vader can simply stop his thought process or overcome the chakra flow in Pain by destroying his mind.


Because Deva-realm pain doesn't have a mind. It's Nagato's mind. If he isn't in the battledome, it doesn't mean Deva-Realm Pain has a mind.


> this
> this
> this
> this
> ...


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## Fang (Apr 3, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> I'll just answer this later in the post.
> 
> Vader lost in a straight duel, end of story.



It doesn't matter because in the end, Maul was the one who was killed. He couldn't react and his precognition didn't save him from Vader's attack.

End of story, Maul lost, Vader won.



> I never even mentioned movement speed, I mentioned thought speed. If Vader constantly thought in the miliseconds, nobody could have a conversation with him as he would talk extremely fast and they would speak extremely slow. Iiiiiiiittsssssss llllllliiiiiiiiiikkkkkkkeeeeeeee llllllliiiiiiiiissssssstttttteeeeeennnnniiiinnnnnngggg lllllllliiiiiiiiikkkkkeeeeee tttttthhhhhhhiiiiiiiiissssssssss.



Goku moves and fights at speeds over mach 1000+, he can still carry a normal conversation with his wife, former master, sons and people like Yamacha and Bulma.

Suspension of Disblief pl0x.

Strawman. I never said a word about that, my entire point was how physically fast Vader could react to act. He has blitzed two Jedi Knights before they could stand up, despite Force-enhanced Reflexes and Precognition, and decapitated them, relatively soon after the events of Mustafar and Order 66.



> Because he *doesn't* have faster thought process with out being in contact with the Force.



He is always in contact with the Force. He is a fucking Sith Lord for christ's sake.

His mind operates and reacts at faster speeds than anything or anyone in Naruto.



> While his throat is being constricted he blast Vader?



And what's stopping Vader from simply protecting himself with the Force like Bane did to stop a Telekentic blast from Kas'im which pulverized a massive building?

Or Vader simply tearing off his head while holding him? Or more to the point again of Pain being able to attack while being hit? The latest chapter even shows Pain being hit and not being able to do anything.



> Yes they do.



No they don't.



> Bullshit, several minutes of talking? It shows five separate conversations which could be happening at the same time. If you want a better picture of the speed, it's from the point Pain summons his bodies and has a few quick lines with Konan. He blast the city right after that.



Several conversations down't happen in a few seconds, like it or not, at best it takes him a minute or two to prepare and use Shinra Tensei after deactivating and focusing all the chakra to Deva-Pain.



> The generator feat is the only feat of note. And he was already incapacitated by Starkiller, it isn't like he would be able to go on. The game shows this when Starkiller just thrashes him around like a toy.



Novel > Game/Comic.

Vader was able to still fight despite getting hit by dozens of projectiles used by Galen, the same ones which shred apart weapon installations and Imperial-Walkers with ease.

The same Vader was fine after taking a teleknetic blast so powerful it was equal in power to an explosion. Even after he destroyed the incomplete first Death Star's tower with his self-destuctive blast and Vader already took damage from being pummeled through multiple floors of the Death Star and having a shield generator dropped on him was standing just fine.



> I already stated it could happen either way. Either Pain smashes Vader or vice-versa. Your evidence that Vader has faster thought process is based completely on reflex-action and precognition which has no bearing on the speed of thought.



One has his mind augmented by a universe spanning power that includes Force-Users reacting to explosions, weapons that range from supersonic and hypersonic all the way to relativistic and lightspeed, ect...

He will react first and smash Pain. That was my whole spiel, you took the wrong meaning from it.



> Pain blast with Shinra Tensei before Vader can reach him.



Vader throws his lightsaber and dismembers Pain. Vader crushes Pain's limbs and mind, so on, ect...



> And what in that snippet made you deduct the shockwave would have liquified anybody? I can't spot any relevant pieces of information.




*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				The Force Unleashed page 240 said:
			
		

> ....*She gaped at the sight. Huge shock waves rolled beneath the ship, compressing and decompressing the garbage of Raxas Prime, lubricated by vast reserves of spilled oil, foul water, and waste chemicals.
> 
> A vast column of smoke filled the sky ahead, lit with flickering red glow from the ground below. It looked like a volcano had belched forth from the planet's skin, erupting like some vast and maligant pimple. A black mushroom cloud was spreading from the top of the smoke column.
> 
> Slowly the shock waves ebbed until the ship was merely rocking from side to side. Juno became aware of the sound of her own breath. She sounded as though she had been running.*







*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Force Unleashed page 243 said:
			
		

> * A rain of ash began to fall minutes after the apprentice had signed off from Juno and Kota. He ignored it, concentrating instead on navigating the desolation that was the newly rearranged surface of Raxus Prime.
> 
> The area around the cannon's remains was a wasteland, blasted flat by the impact. Only a small mountain of wreckage stood out of the steaming plain, at the exact center of impact. All around the central peak, in a perfect circle, stood a crater many meters high, upon one which he had woken, buried under a layer of wrapped plastic sheets. Fragments of cannon and Star Destroyer ticked and pinged as they cooled. Some had sparked fires, which the smothering ash now exstinguished. Everywhere was the smell of exhumed decay and burning foulness.*






Hmmmmmmmmm.


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 3, 2009)

TWF said:


> It doesn't matter because in the end, Maul was the one who was killed. He couldn't react and his precognition didn't save him from Vader's attack.
> 
> End of story, Maul lost, Vader won.


He lost to PIS. Maul would have decapitated Vader before Vader could do shit.


> Strawman. I never said a word about that, my entire point was how physically fast Vader could react to act. He has blitzed two Jedi Knights before they could stand up, despite Force-enhanced Reflexes and Precognition, and decapitated them, relatively soon after the events of Mustafar and Order 66.


Could you be referring to the Comic where Vader took on several Jedi knights? And that they all lost to PIS?


> He is always in contact with the Force. He is a fucking Sith Lord for christ's sake.
> 
> His mind operates and reacts at faster speeds than anything or anyone in Naruto.


Fuck, no it doesn't operate at reaction times. Do you even understand the difference between reaction times and thought speed? F.Y.I. a person is not in reaction-times the moment they spot somebody. 



> And what's stopping Vader from simply protecting himself with the Force like Bane did to stop a Telekentic blast from Kas'im which pulverized a massive building?


Because he isn't Bane? What's to stop Pain from making himself immaterial and teleporting around the battle-zone spamming Rasenshurikens and spamming fireballs and earth dragons while resurrecting immortals to fight for him?


> Or Vader simply tearing off his head while holding him? Or more to the point again of Pain being able to attack while being hit? The latest chapter even shows Pain being hit and not being able to do anything.


You purposely left out it was during the five second recharge time and that Pain was already on his knees from exhaustion.


> No they don't.


Yes they do.


> Several conversations down't happen in a few seconds, like it or not, at best it takes him a minute or two to prepare and use Shinra Tensei after deactivating and focusing all the chakra to Deva-Pain.


A conversation can last three seconds to several hours. We see the conversation Pain had with Konan. It last four lines. For fuck sake, that is a several minute conversation isn't it?


> Novel > Game/Comic.
> 
> Vader was able to still fight despite getting hit by dozens of projectiles used by Galen, the same ones which shred apart weapon installations and Imperial-Walkers with ease.
> 
> ...


And Pain survived being on the outskirts of a several hundred petajoule attack. 


> One has his mind augmented by a universe spanning power that includes Force-Users reacting to explosions, weapons that range from supersonic and hypersonic all the way to relativistic and lightspeed, ect...
> 
> He will react first and smash Pain. That was my whole spiel, you took the wrong meaning from it.


Using flowerly language to replace a two word title will not help you. Premonition =/= Thought speed.



> Vader throws his lightsaber and dismembers Pain. Vader crushes Pain's limbs and mind, so on, ect...


Pain blast Vader before the lightsaber leaves his hand. He is already immune to being mind crushed due to _not having a mind._


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## Deer_Hunter_ (Apr 3, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Lol @ all above.
> 
> 
> Pain sends him through several buildings with a wave.



This is sarcasm right? right!


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## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 3, 2009)

Carloseh said:


> This is sarcasm right? right!



Does it fucking look like sarcasm? Vader has shown _no_ impressive feats. Everything brought up in this debate of any significant value has been what _other_ Jedi and Sith have done.

I mean, I can say Pain fought a being that can throw hundreds of tons, move supersonic, vaporize mountains, deliver petajoule energy blast while not being specific at all and then say Pain is capable of all that. But that's just being dishonest.


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## Fang (Apr 3, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> He lost to PIS. Maul would have decapitated Vader before Vader could do shit.



Wrong.



> Could you be referring to the Comic where Vader took on several Jedi knights? And that they all lost to PIS?



Wrong, James Luceno's Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader.



> Fuck, no it doesn't operate at reaction times. Do you even understand the difference between reaction times and thought speed? F.Y.I. a person is not in reaction-times the moment they spot somebody.



It doesn't fucking matter. They are in a combat scenario, Vader is going to blitz and overcome anything Pain has in terms of speed, or anything in Naruto in fact when it comes to combat speed or reflexes. Without his Precognition being factored in.



> Because he isn't Bane? What's to stop Pain from making himself immaterial and teleporting around the battle-zone spamming Rasenshurikens and spamming fireballs and earth dragons while resurrecting immortals to fight for him?



Non-Sequitar. Force Users have routinely created bubbles or shields with the Force telekentically to protect themselves from explosions, other Force User attacks, and so on.



> You purposely left out it was during the five second recharge time and that Pain was already on his knees from exhaustion.



Five seconds already elapsed, and even Deva-Pain was wondering if Naruto could manage the five second interval from that distance, which he did.



> Yes they do.



No they don't. They still have a semblance of their own personalities and minds. Your citing a bullshit no limits fallacy. Even if Pain is being animated by Nagato's chakra, it can be disrupted and overcame in any number of ways.

Telepathy fucking included. They were all weak and hit by genjutsu attacks, ect...



> A conversation can last three seconds to several hours. We see the conversation Pain had with Konan. It last four lines. For fuck sake, that is a several minute conversation isn't it?



It was not instanteous after Konan and Pain's conversation happened. You have nothing here.



> And Pain survived being on the outskirts of a several hundred petajoule attack.



Which never directly touched him. It was an omnidirectional blast that wouldn't even have constituted a single percentile of the damage being yielded to Pain from the detonation affecting him, and again you have nothing here.

And Vader survived telekentic attacks that smashed him through materials that shit on anything in Naruto's universe, along with the power of explosions which rip apart heavily armored walkers and destroyed multi-story moorings that hold up a fucking skyhock.



> Using flowerly language to replace a two word title will not help you. Premonition =/= Thought speed.



Force User reflexes and combat speeds > hypersonic/supersonic moving attacks.

With Precognition they have relativistic and lightspeed enhanced anticipatory reflexes thanks to the Force.

No way in hell is Pain attacking first or taking out Vader, much less reacting to Vader's attacks.



> Pain blast Vader before the lightsaber leaves his hand. He is already immune to being mind crushed due to _not having a mind._



No Limits Fallacy. Pain can be affected by genjutsu just fine. Genjutsu which affects the five senses by disrupting the chakra flow around the brain, as stated by Jiraiya to Naruto on how genjutsu works in flashback during Naruto's fight with Shouten Itachi.

Pain's normal attacks won't budge Vader who can agument himself easily with the Force. Much less take attacks from a guy who can telekentically force a starship that weights millions of metric tons several hundreds of meters or toss around Imperial Walkers and giant moorings.



ScreenXSurfer said:


> Does it fucking look like sarcasm? Vader has shown _no_ impressive feats. Everything brought up in this debate of any significant value has been what _other_ Jedi and Sith have done.



And Vader was able to last and survive Galen Marek's attacks, destroying 200+ meter buildings designed for heavy weapon testing with the Force indirectly without trying when getting angry, defeat other Sith Lords and numerous Jedi Knights and Masters, so on, ect...



> I mean, I can say Pain fought a being that can throw hundreds of tons, move supersonic, vaporize mountains, deliver petajoule energy blast while not being specific at all and then say Pain is capable of all that. But that's just being dishonest.



Rhino doesn't weigh hundreds of tons. Not even a hundred tons, at top it weights around sixty to eighty tons. This was debunked multiple fucking times.

And Pain has no lifting feats, only taking blows from Senjutsu Naruto after the rest where outrighted destroyed by him. If you want to play it this game so can I.

Not too mention Pain and Naruto are barely supersonic, the top tiers, and nothing in Naruto can vaporize anything other than a large hill or small mountain and small city after using all of his power.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

TWF said:


> Wrong.


Maul struck Vader about seven times through the entire fight, whereas Vader's only strike was after stabbing through himself to get Maul. 



> It doesn't fucking matter. They are in a combat scenario, Vader is going to blitz and overcome anything Pain has in terms of speed, or anything in Naruto in fact when it comes to combat speed or reflexes. Without his Precognition being factored in.


It doesn't matter if he's in a combat scenario. Only if he is in combat does this come into play. He wont enter combat until they actually begin to fight. Only then will his reflexes take place. The conclusion of this fight is "who can raise their hands first." 


> Non-Sequitar. Force Users have routinely created bubbles or shields with the Force telekentically to protect themselves from explosions, other Force User attacks, and so on.


And Shinobi can do everything I posted. Perhaps you shouldn't call my post a non-sequitar when I based the template for it off of yours.


> Five seconds already elapsed, and even Deva-Pain was wondering if Naruto could manage the five second interval from that distance, which he did.


No he wasn't. 

Have you been lying about everything else in this thread too? 

Alright, I fucking know there are people watching this thread that know TWF is lying through his teeth about the Naruto manga. Where he hell are you guys?


> No they don't. They still have a semblance of their own personalities and minds. Your citing a bullshit no limits fallacy. Even if Pain is being animated by Nagato's chakra, it can be disrupted and overcame in any number of ways.


Bullshit, how about you provide some evidence to support your claim. You made it, you prove it. And how about you point out where it is a no-limits fallacy.


> Telepathy fucking included. They were all weak and hit by genjutsu attacks, ect...


Because genjutsu _*affects CHAKRA*_! Nagato's Chakra is through each of those bodies, and it what allows him to see what is going on in those bodies. Thus, if a body's chakra is being affected by Genjutsu, all the data it sends to Nagato will be influenced it as well. How the fuck is this not fundamental?


> It was not instanteous after Konan and Pain's conversation happened. You have nothing here.


Same for you. Nothing about that scenario gives us a timeframe, just that it was over a few second. Compared to all his other demonstrations(instantaneous), this one is an outlier, and you're picking and choosing feats, like always.


> Which never directly touched him. It was an omnidirectional blast that wouldn't even have constituted a single percentile of the damage being yielded to Pain from the detonation affecting him, and again you have nothing here.


And neither do you when you can't quantify your feats and examples. Like always, you're basing it all around "Derp derp, building buster! they're all building busters!". We know it touched him given his clothes were burned off.


> And Vader survived telekentic attacks that smashed him through materials that shit on anything in Naruto's universe, along with the power of explosions which rip apart heavily armored walkers and destroyed multi-story moorings that hold up a fucking skyhock.


Prove that Starkiller's attacks against Vader is equivalent to all those other examples.


> Force User reflexes and combat speeds > hypersonic/supersonic moving attacks.
> 
> With Precognition they have relativistic and lightspeed enhanced anticipatory reflexes thanks to the Force.


So you're admitting their thought process isn't their reflexes and combat speeds? 


> No way in hell is Pain attacking first or taking out Vader, much less reacting to Vader's attacks.


I can say the same thing about Vader.


> No Limits Fallacy. Pain can be affected by genjutsu just fine. Genjutsu which affects the five senses by disrupting the chakra flow around the brain, as stated by Jiraiya to Naruto on how genjutsu works in flashback during Naruto's fight with Shouten Itachi.


Affecting Chakra sent to Nagato will affect him as well. And it is _not_ a no-limits fallacy.


> Pain's normal attacks won't budge Vader who can agument himself easily with the Force. Much less take attacks from a guy who can telekentically force a starship that weights millions of metric tons several hundreds of meters or toss around Imperial Walkers and giant moorings.


Oh yes, thanks for parroting your last ten post while still not proving he can Tank those attacks.



TWF said:


> And Vader was able to last and survive Galen Marek's attacks, destroying 200+ meter buildings designed for heavy weapon testing with the Force indirectly without trying when getting angry, defeat other Sith Lords and numerous Jedi Knights and Masters, so on, ect...


Prove it. I didn't see Galen throwing any of those attacks at Vader.


> Rhino doesn't weigh hundreds of tons. Not even a hundred tons, at top it weights around sixty to eighty tons. This was debunked multiple fucking times.


Bullshit, I read that thread myself and it was stated the Rhino is several times larger than a blue whale, as well as being made out of denser material. Provide the post that debunks it.


> And Pain has no lifting feats, only taking blows from Senjutsu Naruto after the rest where outrighted destroyed by him. If you want to play it this game so can I.


And Vader took no building/AT-AT busting feats.


> Not too mention Pain and Naruto are barely supersonic, the top tiers, and nothing in Naruto can vaporize anything other than a large hill or small mountain and small city after using all of his power.


Neither can Vader, what's your point.



And for once, just fucking once, how about you can provide some Darth Vader feats instead of Starkiller feats.


----------



## Fang (Apr 4, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Maul struck Vader about seven times through the entire fight, whereas Vader's only strike was after stabbing through himself to get Maul.



No he didn't. He hit him once on the side of the helmet, then tried to kick him, missed and Vader followed up by disarming his lightstaff in twine. Then later on Maul got a glancing blow on his helmet with his saber again after slicing him on the side.

Two saber blows don't equal seven.



> It doesn't matter if he's in a combat scenario. Only if he is in combat does this come into play. He wont enter combat until they actually begin to fight. Only then will his reflexes take place. The conclusion of this fight is "who can raise their hands first."



And Vader is much faster than Pain. 



> Alright, I fucking know there are people watching this thread that know TWF is lying through his teeth about the Naruto manga. Where he hell are you guys?



Lmao. You tried to pass off a technique that took Pain the better part of chapter to use as basically instanteous. Fucking lol at the hypocrisy here on your part.



> Bullshit, how about you provide some evidence to support your claim. You made it, you prove it. And how about you point out where it is a no-limits fallacy.



The fact that each Path of Pain can operate independently of Nagato barring recieving of his chakra, is evidence enough.



> Because genjutsu _*affects CHAKRA*_! Nagato's Chakra is through each of those bodies, and it what allows him to see what is going on in those bodies. Thus, if a body's chakra is being affected by Genjutsu, all the data it sends to Nagato will be influenced it as well. How the fuck is this not fundamental?



Equivalence Rule. Number two, you don't get to claim that because Nagato is an outside influence in the battledome that Pain magically becomes immune to Telepathy. It occured during the Jiraiya vs Six Paths of Pain fight, and he was influenced by it.

The Force can affect senses along with the mind directly. Your argument is invalidated and wrong.



> Same for you. Nothing about that scenario gives us a timeframe, just that it was over a few second. Compared to all his other demonstrations(instantaneous), this one is an outlier, and you're picking and choosing feats, like always.



The repulsion attacks that Pain used regularly against Naruto outside of Shinra Tensei don't remotely come close to the amount of time needed for using that sort of power. You are grasping at straws here. 



> And neither do you when you can't quantify your feats and examples. Like always, you're basing it all around "Derp derp, building buster! they're all building busters!". We know it touched him given his clothes were burned off.



Bullshit. A radial or omnidirectional blast like the one the Six-Tailed Kyuubi Naruto used detonated away from Pain, even if it touched him less than single digit percentiles of that energy would've affected him. We're talking about less than 2% here.



> Prove that Starkiller's attacks against Vader is equivalent to all those other examples.



Multi-story Moorings designed to hold up massive skyhocks were destroyed by Starkiller's Telekensis. Same Moorings that defy the physics of a planet and hold up an objects with their tensile strength that weights millions+ of tons. Easily and casually tossing around Imperial Walkers which certainly weigh more than Pain's Rhino summon, and so on.

I never claimed that Starkiller's Telekensis was equal to Pain's Shinra Tensei, but his average attack is certainly more impressive than what Pain on average shows.



> So you're admitting their thought process isn't their reflexes and combat speeds?



Combat and non-combat scenarios are equivalent to each other outside of the Battledome for fights.



> I can say the same thing about Vader.



Good thing Force-Users have repeatedly showcased hypersonic and supersonic+ reflexes and movement speeds where as Senjutsu Naruto doesn't have any quantified speed feats and nothing in Naruto is remotely close to mid or high level speed feats in Star Wars/Expanded Universe.



> Affecting Chakra sent to Nagato will affect him as well. And it is _not_ a no-limits fallacy.



Yes it is.



> Oh yes, thanks for parroting your last ten post while still not proving he can Tank those attacks.



Yes, he repeatedly tanks attacks from Galen Marek whose normal abilities and powers are far beyond Pain barring Shinra Tensei.

Good to know you ignore this ad naseum.



> Prove it. I didn't see Galen throwing any of those attacks at Vader.



I've already posted the fucking quotes multiple times.


*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Force Unleashed page 294 said:
			
		

> Dropping off the ramp and onto a conveyor belt, he ran to the head of the slave convoy and dropped the lead stormtroopers before they even saw him. He swing his lightsaber twice more, cutting the binders of the lead Wookiee slave to make clear his intent, then reached reached up with the Force and telekinetically wrenched the far wall's ramp out of its footings, spilling the guards to the bottom of the trench.







*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Force Unleashed page 296 said:
			
		

> Automated weapons emplacements spotted him instantly. Red weapons fired stitched lines of explosions across the station's patchwork hull as he ducked between the AT-AT's massive legs. Scooping up components from the nearest construction conveyor belt, he threw a series of high-speed missiles at the turrets, knocking five out of commission. A stream of Sith lightning put the AT-AT itself out of action, and a good, solid shove tipped it over with a crash, providing cover for the Wookiees when the time came to cross.








*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Force Unleashed page 306-310 said:
			
		

> You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the Apprentice's throat closed tight. *He beat back the Telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room. For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.*







*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Force Unleashed page 309-310 said:
			
		

> ...Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking. The Apprentice gripped his lightsaber in both hands and held himself back. Anger was familiar and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most needed to see clearly.
> 
> Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the Apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. *The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the Apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued until, with a crash, the Apprentice ripped the energy field generator in the cineter of the room right out of the floor and hurled it at his former Master.
> 
> It exploded with greater force than he had expected, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered. Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward. He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places. Flesh and machinery showed through the gaps. Finally, some real blood was flowing*








> *snip*



I'm not getting into this bullshit with you, when I spent the better part of several weeks with other posters proving that was pure wankery. 



> And Vader took no building/AT-AT busting feats.



Too bad the novel states otherwise.



> Neither can Vader, what's your point.



That you continue with the strawman fallacies. He's far faster, has Telekentic power roughly on par with Galen Marek and he can take attacks that surpass building busting easily, even when badly wounded.



> And for once, just fucking once, how about you can provide some Darth Vader feats instead of Starkiller feats.



Vader having durability and power to be on a similar level as Galen is a feat. Vader not getting absolutely crushed by Galen is a fucking feat. Vader telekentically destroying 200+meter heavy weapons buildings indirectly with the Force is a feat. Vader having relativistic reflexes while whaling on CIS droid starfighters in dog fights is a feat. Vader Telekentically strangling and crushing necks kilometers away with no hands is a feat.

Vader fucking reacting to blaster bolts after they're fired and blocking/absorbing them with his hands is a feat, from only a few meters away.


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Fang (Apr 4, 2009)

*Spoiler*: __ 
















Almost the entirety of Vader and Maul's fight. Maul hits Vader on the head, then the side, Vader cuts Maul's lightsaber in twine, Maul gets a glancing blow on Vader's helmet, Vader kills Maul.

He never hit him seven times, and he missed with his kick. He only twice hit him with his saber. You are a liar.

Not too mention Vader in Enemy of the Empire was telepathically fucking up Boba Fett, and in another Star Wars Tales, he over come repulsor oriented technology a alien used to try and counter Vader's Force powers.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

TWF said:


> No he didn't. He hit him once on the side, then tried to kick him, missed and Vader followed up by disarming his lightstaff in twine. Then later on Maul got a glancing blow on his helmet.
> 
> He hit him twice. You are a liar.


First hit: Darth Maul kicks him in the face and says "You are the sham, Jedi"
Second hit: Darth Maul punches him in the face and says "Which of us is truly an imposter?"
Third Hit: Maul slashes him in the side, the strike you posted
Fourth Hit: Maul strikes him in the helmet with one of his sabers
Vader didn't get a single blow in, while Maul struck him four times. At the end, Maul was about to finish Vader, who was on his knees facing away form Maul, if Vader hadn't of impaled himself. Maul dominated.


> And Vader is much faster than Pain.


No he isn't. You're going to cite _other_ Jedi moving fast, but you won't cite Vader. I won't be surprised.


> Lmao. You tried to pass off a technique that took Pain the better part of chapter to use as basically instanteous. Fucking lol at the hypocrisy here on your part.


Since you can't read to save your life, I'll cite myself.
"Nothing about that scenario gives us a timeframe, *just that it was over a few second*."

"f you want a better picture of the speed,* it's from the point Pain summons his bodies and has a few quick lines with Konan. *He blast the city right after that."

"Shinra Tensei doesn't require several minutes of preparation, and anybody would agree with me if they weren't sucking Vader-cock. A*t most, it required a few seconds *for him to do his city-buster. Other attacks like throwing three hundred+ ton toads several kilometers, ripping apart the landscape with a blast, and sending hundreds of Naruto's in every direction are instant attacks."

"Tell that to the guy cratered several kilometers of land after a *few second build-up.*"

Where the fuck did you read I said instant for that attack? 
Where did you see it.
QUOTE IT FOR ME

YOU on the other hand:
"Too bad Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei require him to prepare using them. "

"Too bad Tensei requires several minutes of preperation"

"It took most of a fucking chapter while people talked for several minutes for him to activate and use Shinra Tensei."

The fact that YOU are basing ALL the examples of Shinra Tensei on that feat while calling me a hypocrite is beyond me. Pot calling the kettle black on the highest degree.


> The fact that each fucking Path of Pain can operate independently of Nagato barring recieving of his chakra, is evidence enough.


When did this ever happen? It didn't. You're making shit up now.


> Equivalence Rule. Number two, you don't get to fucking claim that because Nagato is an outside influence in the battledome that Pain magically becomes immune to Telepathy. It occured during the Jiraiya vs Six Paths of Pain fight, and he was influenced by it.


There is nothing equivalent in the way genjutsu and mind-control works. For Vader to mind-control God-Realm, he'd either have to disrupt the chakra flow. Go cry in the corner because it doesn't work out for you.


> The Force can affect senses along with the mind directly. Your argument is invalidated and wrong.


So what is he going to do? Mind control the chakra? 


> The repulsion attacks that Pain used regularly against Naruto outside of Shinra Tensei don't remotely come close to the amount of time needed for using that sort of power. You are grasping at straws here.


I never stated it does. You're the one that jumped to the conclusion. To be able to do this

and this

instantly, is really going to fuck Vader up.


> Bullshit. A radial or omnidirectional blast like the one the Six-Tailed Kyuubi Naruto used detonated away from Pain, even if it touched him less than single digit percentiles of that energy would've affected him. We're talking about less than 2% here.


Even if Pain took .01% of the attack, he's looking at 188 Terajoules, or 45 kilotons of energy. GTFO Vader.



> Multi-story Moorings designed to hold up massive skyhocks were destroyed by Starkiller's Telekensis. Same Moorings that defy the physics of a planet and hold up an objects with their tensile strength that weights millions+ of tons. Easily and casually tossing around Imperial Walkers which certainly weigh more than Pain's Rhino summon, and so on.
> 
> I never claimed that Starkiller's Telekensis was equal to Pain's Shinra Tensei, but his average attack is certainly more impressive than what Pain on average shows.


Can you read? I said prove that Vader tanked that level of attack.


> Combat and non-combat scenarios are equivalent to each other outside of the Battledome for fights.


Suddenly we find ourselves in a dilemma, as we are in the Battledome.


> Good thing Force-Users have repeatedly showcased hypersonic and supersonic+ reflexes and movement speeds where as Senjutsu Naruto doesn't have any quantified speed feats and nothing in Naruto is remotely close to mid or high level speed feats in Star Wars/Expanded Universe.


Too bad Vader hasn't showcased repeatedly, or even once, hypersonic and supersonic movement speeds.


> Yes it is.


Why? Because Vader can't do it? 
I'm so sorry you had to find out this way, TWF, but Vader can't use chakra. 


> Yes, he repeatedly tanks attacks from Galen Marek whose normal abilities and powers are far beyond Pain barring Shinra Tensei.


Calc it.


> Good to know you ignore this ad naseum.


No, I just let the bullshit slide for awhile until I figured you didn't know what you're talking about.


> I've already posted the fucking quotes multiple times.



Where did you provide those quotes.


> snip quotes


First two quotes are non-essentials, as we don't see Vader in it.
The second quotes we see
-Vader get hit with a "small explosion" which doesn't even sound like a few hundred pound bomb, probably the force of a grenade.
-Vader gets knocked through sturdy glass

Not going to hold up against Shinra Tensei


> I'm not getting into this bullshit with you, when I spent the better part of several weeks with other posters proving that was pure wankery.


You didn't contribute anything in that thread and just went "no those calcs are wrong" with out providing any calcs of your own to counter them, and the only person who did was Vynjira, who was pretty much yelled out of the thread by majority of the people. Calcs I found after a few seconds of searching.

And me saying the Rhino was in the excess of a few hundred tons is pretty light-weight when others calced it at being in thousands of tons.


> Too bad the novel states otherwise.


Too bad it is equivalent canon. I searched all over google for a quote stating C-canon hierarchy, and nothing has come up. Provide the quote and source which you're basing this on.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

> That you continue with the strawman fallacies. He's far faster, has Telekentic power roughly on par with Galen Marek and he can take attacks that surpass building busting easily, even when badly wounded.


Strawman fallacy how? I asked you to prove that Vader can reciprocate Galen Marek. And you run and hide behind the improper use of strawman. Figures, you don't have shit so you start dodging the responsibility of providing burden of proof.

Even though it's pointless, I'll ask you again. Provide the proof that Vader was tanking hits equivalent to the building busters you provided.


> Vader having durability and power to be on a similar level as Galen is a feat.


Where?


> Vader not getting absolutely crushed by Galen is a fucking feat.


It's a poor showing on Galen's part, not a good showing on Vaders. If Galen and Vader ever met in OBD Galen would crush Vader easily due to PIS and CIS being removed. 


> Vader telekentically destroying 200+meter heavy weapons buildings indirectly with the Force is a feat.


Refresh my memory, when did this happen.


> Vader having relativistic reflexes while whaling on CIS droid starfighters in dog fights is a feat. Vader Telekentically strangling and crushing necks kilometers away with no hands is a feat.


Finally some actual feats. Premonition has already been covered, don't know why you'd bring it up again. And crushing necks kilometers away...so what? It took him several seconds to actually kill those people, their hands were free to do whatever they wanted while he did it. Deva will blast Vader before he dies.


> Vader fucking reacting to blaster bolts after they're fired and blocking/absorbing them with his hands is a feat, from only a few meters away.


Premonition covered. Hands taking a few blaster shots is a good feat, we see the same blaster blow off chunks from Mos Eisleys space-port, so Vader can redirect energy from vaporizing his arm. Won't help against being repelled.


> *Spoiler*: __




I have the comic, don't bother. Four hits, yes?

And what was the name of the other Star Wars tales you speak of? I borrowed my friends entire collection of Star Wars comics, I want to cross check for myself.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Apr 4, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> And what was the name of the other Star Wars tales you speak of? I borrowed my friends entire collection of Star Wars comics, I want to cross check for myself.



I think it was this one



I don't remember the name though


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 4, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Lol @ all above.
> 
> 
> Pain sends him through several buildings with a wave.



:rofl Your insane hate of the SW verse is getting on my nerves, Vader eats Shinra Tensei and force crushes Deva's neck.  Jedi are bullet timers who can move at speeds superior to that of 450km/h


----------



## Gunners (Apr 4, 2009)

> Five seconds already elapsed, and even Deva-Pain was wondering if Naruto could manage the five second interval from that distance, which he did.



Do you have proof that five seconds had passed? Or is this another situation where you ajust what actually happens in hope that people don't call you out on it.


----------



## Itachi2000 (Apr 4, 2009)

Force>Shinra Tensei


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Apr 4, 2009)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Your insane hate of the SW verse is getting on my nerves



I don't think that's the case here

Insane hate would be the retarded CBR policy of not accepting EU evidence

At least he's actually arguing against it instead of just saying 'lol not canon'


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> :rofl Your insane hate of the SW verse is getting on my nerves, Vader eats Shinra Tensei and force crushes Deva's neck.  Jedi are bullet timers who can move at speeds superior to that of 450km/h


No no no, I'm just trying to put an end to the wankery. "Arguing against" does not translate into "hate with a passion." I greatly enjoy Star Wars and the EU, and unlike you, I actually have some knowledge about it.

Also, prove that Vader can move at speeds greater than 450km.


----------



## Fang (Apr 4, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> First hit: Darth Maul kicks him in the face and says "You are the sham, Jedi"
> Second hit: Darth Maul punches him in the face and says "Which of us is truly an imposter?"
> Third Hit: Maul slashes him in the side, the strike you posted
> Fourth Hit: Maul strikes him in the helmet with one of his sabers
> Vader didn't get a single blow in, while Maul struck him four times. At the end, Maul was about to finish Vader, who was on his knees facing away form Maul, if Vader hadn't of impaled himself. Maul dominated.



So you admit to lying about Maul hitting him seven or more times? Secondly Maul missed with his fucking kick.



> No he isn't. You're going to cite _other_ Jedi moving fast, but you won't cite Vader. I won't be surprised.



I've already citied the example of Vader blitzing multiple Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters from Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader.



> Since you can't read to save your life, I'll cite myself.
> "Nothing about that scenario gives us a timeframe, *just that it was over a few second*."



Nothing which you can use to quantify how quickly Shinra Tensei was summoned or used.

You have nothing.



> *snip*



Good thing that you still don't have a reference of time when the burden of proof is on you to prove how quickly it occured. 



> "Shinra Tensei doesn't require several minutes of preparation, and anybody would agree with me if they weren't sucking Vader-cock. A*t most, it required a few seconds *for him to do his city-buster. Other attacks like throwing three hundred+ ton toads several kilometers, ripping apart the landscape with a blast, and sending hundreds of Naruto's in every direction are instant attacks."



Good thing Gamabunta and his brothers don't weight 300 tons since they're magical summon creatures we don't know what the fuck they're made out of. Much less tossing Naruto summons isn't a fucking feat when even Zabuza could throw dozens of Taijuu Kage Bunshins around.



> "Tell that to the guy cratered several kilometers of land after a *few second build-up.*"



Lol.



> *snip*



Fact 1: It did take most of a chapter to use.
Fact 2: It harms Deva-Pain and Nagato.
Fact 3: He has to deactivate and leave himself open from the other bodies from the Path of Pains to use it.

And finally number five, where's the reference of time for you again other than you going after a free action trope?

Oh wait, it doesn't exist.



> *snip*



You get called out for bullshit multiple times now in Star Wars related threads. Don't whine when you get targeted for this.



> When did this ever happen? It didn't. You're making shit up now.



Yes, Naraku-Pain, Animal-Pain, Deva-Pain and Asura-Pain all doing their own thing independently asking and looking for Naruto certainly indicates a lack of individuality right.



> There is nothing equivalent in the way genjutsu and mind-control works. For Vader to mind-control God-Realm, he'd either have to disrupt the chakra flow. Go cry in the corner because it doesn't work out for you.



So basically you ignore evidence that the Equivalence Rule is in effect and continue with the No-Limits argument.

Gotcha.



> So what is he going to do? Mind control the chakra?



Mind-Control Pain, derp.



> I never stated it does. You're the one that jumped to the conclusion. To be able to do this
> 
> and this
> 
> instantly, is really going to fuck Vader up.



Good thing he won't get that instant and Vader as of current EU can survive those sort of attacks with the Force.



> Even if Pain took .01% of the attack, he's looking at 188 Terajoules, or 45 kilotons of energy. GTFO Vader.



Good thing Six-Tailed Kyuubi Naruto doesn't do multi-kiloton blasts, much less megaton. Then again here you are probably looking at Fuujin's numbers which were not accepted, so I really don't give a shit.



> Can you read? I said prove that Vader tanked that level of attack.



So basically your trolling because your asking that Galen Marek would have some magical reason not to use the full strength of his Telekentic powers against Vader.

Good to know.



> Too bad Vader hasn't showcased repeatedly, or even once, hypersonic and supersonic movement speeds.



Yes, this is why Vader deflects blaster fire from a few meters away, with two hands, casually. And the same blaster fire can cover multiple kilometers in a single frame. Thank you AOTC and RoTS.



> Why? Because Vader can't do it?
> I'm so sorry you had to find out this way, TWF, but Vader can't use chakra.



No Limits Fallacy et Ad-Naseum.



> Calc it.



Don't have to. Multi-Story Moorings designed to hold up million+ tons of skyhock to defy planetary physics > Boss Summons. Basically you continually showcase obstinate and asinine attacks and arguments to downplay Marek and Vader's feats from Force Unleashed.

Utterly shameful.



> No, I just let the bullshit slide for awhile until I figured you didn't know what you're talking about.



Trolling.



> Not going to hold up against Shinra Tensei



Yeah obviously surviving attacks from a guy who casually destroys moorings and walkers means jackshit.

Are you trolling?



> *snip*



Appeal to Popularity fallacy. Not too mention for one, no one accepted Fuujin or Kokain's calcs because they were batshit insane and beyond the possibility of reasonable doubt.

2000+ ton mass? Multi-block size Rhino?

Lol.



> And me saying the Rhino was in the excess of a few hundred tons is pretty light-weight when others calced it at being in thousands of tons.



Which were wrong. Which going by your claim to consensus, was never accepted by anyone.



> *snip*



Not my problem.


----------



## Fang (Apr 4, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Strawman fallacy how? I asked you to prove that Vader can reciprocate Galen Marek. And you run and hide behind the improper use of strawman. Figures, you don't have shit so you start dodging the responsibility of providing burden of proof.



Not really. Your the one whose claiming the events and fights with Galen in the novel don't count. Which in itself is fallacy. 

Good to know.



> Even though it's pointless, I'll ask you again. Provide the proof that Vader was tanking hits equivalent to the building busters you provided.



I've already provided quotes of the power of Galen Marek's prowress with the Force and his destructive capabilities. Your the one who needs to provide the burden of proof that Galen would have reasons to holding back when he was bloodlusted and trying to destroy Vader.



> Where?



Force Unleashed. 



> It's a poor showing on Galen's part, not a good showing on Vaders. If Galen and Vader ever met in OBD Galen would crush Vader easily due to PIS and CIS being removed.



You have no argument when there was no PIS or CIS involved in their fight. Good to know this.



> Refresh my memory, when did this happen.



Labyrinth of Evil.



> Finally some actual feats. Premonition has already been covered, don't know why you'd bring it up again.



Wrong again. Force-enhanced reflexes and abilities to react to hypersonic+ attacks don't indicate Precognition all the time. 



> And crushing necks kilometers away...so what? It took him several seconds to actually kill those people, their hands were free to do whatever they wanted while he did it. Deva will blast Vader before he dies.



No it doesn't. Now prove Pain could do it before blackening out.



> Premonition covered. Hands taking a few blaster shots is a good feat, we see the same blaster blow off chunks from Mos Eisleys space-port, so Vader can redirect energy from vaporizing his arm. Won't help against being repelled.



Good thing Vader's arm was up after Han reached for his gun and fired. And it wasn't Precognition. Not every fucking speed feat when it comes to reflexes have to do with Precog.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

TWF said:


> So you admit to lying about Maul hitting him seven or more times? Secondly Maul missed with his fucking kick.


No he didn't, or there would be no sound effect for the kick. It would have been like his second kick which went by Vader's shoulder. 


> I've already citied the example of Vader blitzing multiple Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters from Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader.


You said it happened, you didn't even give us a time-frame for how it happened.


> Nothing which you can use to quantify how quickly Shinra Tensei was summoned or used.
> 
> You have nothing.


Neither do you, so STFU already.


> Good thing that you still don't have a reference of time when the burden of proof is on you to prove how quickly it occured.


No no no no, burden of proof is on you to prove every shinra tensei takes that long of a build up. Get to it.


> Good thing Gamabunta and his brothers don't weight 300 tons since they're magical summon creatures we don't know what the fuck they're made out of. Much less tossing Naruto summons isn't a fucking feat when even Zabuza could throw dozens of Taijuu Kage Bunshins around.


Hand-wavium at it's best. You don't like a calc, you say it's wrong with out providing any evidence to state otherwise. 


> Lol.
> 
> 
> 
> Fact 1: It did take most of a chapter to use.


Which gives us nothing.


> Fact 2: It harms Deva-Pain and Nagato.


It harms Nagato, Deva-Realm showed no signs of weakening.


> Fact 3: He has to deactivate and leave himself open from the other bodies from the Path of Pains to use it.


Provide proof for this claim.


> And finally number five, where's the reference of time for you again other than you going after a free action trope?
> 
> Oh wait, it doesn't exist.
> 
> ...


----------



## Fang (Apr 4, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> No he didn't, or there would be no sound effect for the kick. It would have been like his second kick which went by Vader's shoulder.



I like how you didn't admit to lying here.



> You said it happened, you didn't even give us a time-frame for how it happened.





			
				Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader page 276 said:
			
		

> Time and time again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest and most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate Forte's and Kulka strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed.
> 
> Toying with the Jedi, he grazed Forte on the left shoulder, then on the right thigh: Kulka, he pierced lightly in the abdomen, then shaved away the flesh on the right side of the Ho'Din's face.
> 
> ...





> Neither do you, so STFU already.



That wasn't the point. Also Ad homiem.



> No no no no, burden of proof is on you to prove every shinra tensei takes that long of a build up. Get to it.



Not my problem, only thing I was talking about was the one Deva-Pain used to destroy Konohagakura.



> Hand-wavium at it's best. You don't like a calc, you say it's wrong with out providing any evidence to state otherwise.



Yes, you have proof of magical summon creature weights now? And what they're made out of? I would love to see it.




> Exactly, so shut the fuck up the next time you try using it as a reference for how all shinra tensei works.



Never did. But lol at it taking a few seconds.



> LOL I get called out for bullshit for citing straight canon? No no no, there was no bullshit on my end, just the bullshit on Star Wars' end for having conflicting calcs. You know the recent clone wars episode puts CIS shielding in the megatons after having a few fighters take out several frigates?



You were the one bitching about SD.net having Venators possessing over 860teraton firepower per barrage a second.

Don't talk.



> They're hive-minded, all being controlled by Nagato to find out where Naruto is.



Which in no way refutes the ability of them to act individually on their own accord while fighting.



> You have provided no evidence, nor have you stated why it is a no-limits fallacy. You're just talking out of your ass. Other people in this thread have indicated you've done it before, so I'm not surprised.



No Limits fallacy et ad naseum, gotcha on your part.



> Won't work, derp.



Too bad it will.



> Good thing Pain will hit him first and Vader will be incapacitated.



Won't happen for Pain. 



> *snip*



:snorlax:



> So basically you're talking out of your ass when you claim Vader can take those attacks because you can't quantify it.



So basically your ignorning Starkiller Feats and Vader taking repeated telekentic blasts from someone who is well above a multi-building buster, even if it isn't directly quantified, gotcha.



> It's called having his hand up before the shot is fired. Premonition helps in that regard.



6:17, Han's hand already was pointing and firing before Vader raised his hand to deflect the blaster bolts. 



> I'm kinda flabbergasted at this point. You claim this and that about my argument, with out doing shit to prove me wrong. Are you like this in every debate? You spam debate terms while putting up bullshit? Quit being a hack and actually prove me wrong.



I've already posted excerpts of Starkiller feats, Vader surviving it, OP stating that all of Vader's abilities and powers allowed, and so on. Your the one repeating himself ad naseum, while ignoring evidence at hand.



> And you've constantly refused to refute any of my argument. Perhaps you can do that for once instead of spamming a debate thread.



Try again.



> I know. Expecting retards to behave intelligently is a bit on my cold side.



Ad Homiem # 2.



> No. Trolling would be if I continued the same way _after_ you proved Vader could survive those attacks. After you quantified those attacks. After you actually did Vader feats and not Starkiller feats. Like what you've been doing about everything in regards to Naruto in this thread.



Burden of Proof is still on you to prove that Starkiller wasn't using his full power when buffeting Vader with his attacks. And again I've already provided quotes and excerpts on Vader's powers from Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, Force Unleashed novel, the films and comics.

Quit with the bullshit ignorance. 



> *snip*



Wrong. Someone busts multi-story moorings designed to defy physics, it doesn't take quantification to deduce Starkiller is above building busting in terms of destructive capabilities.





> I, for one, said over a hundred. You haven't contributed anything to that thread, so I don't know why you're trying to argue from a position of strength. And Vynjira+TWF =/= OBD.



Wrong again.



> *snip*



Not really.



> OH HO! So you admit you can't provide any proof. This put that whole "novel takes precedence over games and comics" out the window. The Comic version doesn't have Vader tanking any super hits except having two pillars smashed into him. He was completely laid out by that. Oh yea, big fucking huge showing on Vader's part.



I've already posted an excerpt from the fucking novel of Starkiller using the same attack to shred Walkers and Imperial armor on the Death Star by using sharpnel and missiles telekentically to blast and buffet Vader.

Try again.



> No no no, you're just illiterate and can't read. I never said they don't count, I said you can't quantify it. Fine, Vader can be pushed through sturdy glass and take rocks thrown at him. That's all you've shown me.



Ignorning Starkiller tossing a field generator on top of him, getting hit by the explosion and getting sent through multiple floors and tiers of the Death Star's command tower and getting hit by shrapnel accelerated by the kinetic force strong enough to shred Walkers, Moorings and armor.



> No, you were the one that said Galen used that level of power against Vader, when the game and Comic state otherwise. Also you said he was bloodlusted, which the game and comic show otherwise. Two sources of C-canon trump one.



Wrong again. Canon Tree states that the canon of the story is diverged between the comic and the novel. Comic doesn't say anything about the seperate plot line on Raxas Prime when the Core takes over Proxy, and so on.

One source vs One source. It states that the primary canonical storys are between the novel and graphic novel. The game doesn't get used in your arguments.

Try again. Only thing I have to conceed is that the canon is between the novel and comic.



> No, because Galen would have jellied Vader across the bulkhead. He didn't do that once in the game or comic.



Game is non-canon.

Novel states otherwise. 



> And it doesn't indicate what you're claiming either. I'm aware of no such material that indicates Jedi have higher reflexes outside of precognition.



Wrong. Reflexes have to match Precognition.

Anyway Ki-Adi Mundi blocking several shots from half dozen Clone Troopers during Order 66 despite the Shroud of Darkness Palpatine and the Dark Side had over as a veil against the Jedi Order to disrupt their long range Precognition and Prescience.

Luke and other Force Users constantly in EU showcasing high speed movement and reflexes without their Precognition. Coruscant Nights Trilogy's final novel introducing a powerful Force-User teenager who doesn't use Precognition at all but just augments his reflexes with the Force.



> Outside of one instance, Shinra Tensei is an instant attack. He can do it while he's being strangled. G-canon has force choke take several seconds, and so does C-canon.



No.



> 6:18
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPmYm8OpUyA&feature=PlayList&p=52051D01F27DA049&index=20[/YOUTUBE]
> His hand was up before he fired the weapon.



Wrong. 6:17, Vader's hand was up after Han fired. And don't bother replying because I'll ignore your posts in this thread.


----------



## Vergil642 (Apr 4, 2009)

TWF said:


> Vader telekentically crushes Pain.



This. Deva has no chance unless you remove Vader's arms, legs and life support. And make him unconscious.


----------



## Wuzzman (Apr 4, 2009)

People who make star wars threads should be banned. Star wars is illogical, plot hole ridden piece of never ending shit and anyone who wants to argue the sheer stupidity of EU wank fest should go to a star wars forum.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 4, 2009)

People who make Pain threads should be banned. Pain's showings are illogical, plot hole ridden pieces of never ending shit and anyone who wants to argue the sheer stupidity of Pain wank fest should go to the Naruto section of these forums.


Only thing left to say is:



Caedus said:


> Force Crush....


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

TWF said:


> I like how you didn't admit to lying here.


Same for you.


> That wasn't the point. Also Ad homiem.


Not an Ad hominem, as I attacked your argument. 
AD hominem: Attacking the poster and not the arugment.
You've been doing this the whole thread.


> Not my problem, only thing I was talking about was the one Deva-Pain used to destroy Konohagakura.





			
				TWF said:
			
		

> Too bad Tensei requires several minutes of preperation


Next time mention you were talking about a single specific instance instead so this bullshit could have been ignored.


> Yes, you have proof of magical summon creature weights now? And what they're made out of? I would love to see it.


I would like to see your evidence for physics defying super-duper material, how much it weighs, it's density, and it's components.


> Never did. But lol at it taking a few seconds.


The above quotes say otherwise. 


> You were the one bitching about SD.net having Venators possessing over 860teraton firepower per barrage a second.


No, I conceded that debate the moment you found an actual calculation. Unlike here where you throw all calculations out the window.

Fucking hypocrite.


> Which in no way refutes the ability of them to act individually on their own accord while fighting.


So you admit they're a hivemind while previously stating they weren't?


> No Limits fallacy et ad naseum, gotcha on your part.





> Too bad it will.





> Won't happen for Pain.





> :snorlax:


I'm going to take all these as concessions, as you can't put up an argument and resort to spamming. This isn't an Ad Hominem, I am attacking your argument here.


> So basically your ignorning Starkiller Feats


Yes. Vader isn't Starkiller.


> and Vader taking repeated telekentic blasts from someone who is well above a multi-building buster, even if it isn't directly quantified, gotcha.


All starkiller's feats in the Vader fight don't show he was throwing building buster.


> 6:17, Han's hand already was pointing and firing before Vader raised his hand to deflect the blaster bolts.






Can we get a third opinion?


> I've already posted excerpts of Starkiller feats, Vader surviving it,


No you haven't. All Starkiller did was TK grab Vader and throw him around, then throw him through a window pane.


> OP stating that all of Vader's abilities and powers allowed, and so on. Your the one repeating himself ad naseum, while ignoring evidence at hand.


You've provided no evidence.


> Try again.


No, you haven't provided the post that debunks it. I provided my source, you haven't reciprocated. 


> Ad Homiem # 2.


Ad Hominem#1.


> Burden of Proof is still on you to prove that Starkiller wasn't using his full power when buffeting Vader with his attacks.


The fact that the comic or game doesn't even hint at it. All we see in the comic is him say "You ambushed me twice. You haven't defeated me in a fair duel since I was a child." He then effortlessly defeats Vader, in book, comic, and game.


> And again I've already provided quotes and excerpts on Vader's powers from Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, Force Unleashed novel, the films and comics.


You did it once, and failed to say that when "He has blitzed two Jedi Knights before they could stand up" was when they were disoriented and a few feat away.


> Wrong. Someone busts multi-story moorings designed to defy physics, it doesn't take quantification to deduce Starkiller is above building busting in terms of destructive capabilities.


I'm going to do what you did now, and tell you to prove the building weighed so and so.


> Wrong again.





> Not really.


More concessions from you.


> I've already posted an excerpt from the fucking novel of Starkiller using the same attack to shred Walkers and Imperial armor on the Death Star by using sharpnel and missiles telekentically to blast and buffet Vader.


Same attack does not mean equivalent power. We already confirmed this when you cried about Shinra Tensei. Prove Vader can handle that magnitude of attack.


> Try again.


Concession accepted.


> Ignorning Starkiller tossing a field generator on top of him,


I didn't ignore that, in fact I said that shows great durability.


> getting hit by the explosion


A "small explosion" of unknown yield. I suspect it is equivalent to a hand grenade.


> and getting sent through multiple floors and tiers of the Death Star's command tower and getting hit by shrapnel accelerated by the kinetic force strong enough to shred Walkers, Moorings and armor.


You haven't proved that Vader can tank those attacks at all. You just showed he took other attacks, most likely much less than that.


> Wrong again. Canon Tree states that the canon of the story is diverged between the comic and the novel. Comic doesn't say anything about the seperate plot line on Raxas Prime when the Core takes over Proxy, and so on.


So? That's just inconsistent. What does this have to do with the Vader fight?


> One source vs One source. It states that the primary canonical storys are between the novel and graphic novel. The game doesn't get used in your arguments.
> 
> Try again. Only thing I have to conceed is that the canon is between the novel and comic.


No, the game is C-Canon too, and we don't see AT-AT or Building crushing force blast at Vader in there either.


> Game is non-canon.


You're full of shit, as the Game is C-Canon. Picking and choosing again.


> Novel states otherwise.


Comic and Game show Galen has more control over the force than Vader. Marek would have obliterated him.


> Wrong. Reflexes have to match Precognition.


Their precognition is their reflexes, derp.


> Anyway Ki-Adi Mundi blocking several shots from half dozen Clone Troopers during Order 66 despite the Shroud of Darkness Palpatine and the Dark Side had over as a veil against the Jedi Order to disrupt their long range Precognition and Prescience.


Ki-Adi Mundi (and not Vader) blocking shots from troopers is short range precognition, not the aforementioned long ranged.


> Luke and other Force Users constantly in EU showcasing high speed movement and reflexes without their Precognition.


But not Vader.


> Coruscant Nights Trilogy's final novel introducing a powerful Force-User teenager who doesn't use Precognition at all but just augments his reflexes with the Force.


But not Vader.


> No.


Concession accepted.


> Wrong. 6:17, Vader's hand was up after Han fired.


His hand lifted while Han was still taking aim.


You entire argument amounts to this:  other Jedi can do this and that, VADER CAN TOO!    But I won't show you where it says it. 




> And don't bother replying because I'll ignore your posts in this thread.


Concession accepted.


----------



## Narcissus (Apr 4, 2009)

What the hell is this nonsense?  SXS, you can babble on all you want about Pain's abilities, but please tell me how he will defend against a mind rape or force neck snap.

Oh that's right, you can't.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> What the hell is this nonsense?  SXS, you can babble on all you want about Pain's abilities, but please tell me how he will defend against a mind rape or force neck snap.


Pain can't be Mind Raped by Vader, and the neck snap takes several seconds to finish. By which time Pain will have blasted him across the landscape.  Pain has no defense against the Force, I never advocated he did.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 4, 2009)

> What the hell is this nonsense? SXS, you can babble on all you want about Pain's abilities, but please tell me how he will defend against a mind rape or force neck snap.
> 
> Oh that's right, you can't.



Actually in an earlier post he didn't argue against that, his point was that whoever gets the drop first wins.


----------



## Seyta (Apr 4, 2009)

I agree with the majority of the consensus...which is technically all but one person... spanning the first four pages.

Vader Wins.

Pain dies a horribly painful death through a mind rape or a force crush.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

Seyta said:


> I agree with the majority of the consensus...which is technically all but one person... spanning the first four pages.
> 
> Vader Wins.
> 
> Pain dies a horribly painful death through a mind rape or a force crush.



Vader doesn't tend to have his murders be painful, nor horrible. And Pain can't be Mind-Raped by Vader. And spam? Point out which of my post are spam.

I say 3/5 times, Pain wins.

EDIT: And what gives you the knowledge on who wins? The only people with decent Star Wars knowledge on this board can be counted on one hand, and one of them is a liar.

EDIT 2: Now I understand why EM is about having people that don't know shit about a franchise to sit out of a debate. Because all they do is spam unsupported and debunked claims over and over.


----------



## Fang (Apr 4, 2009)

I'm a liar? Your the one making obtuse claims that Starkiller's feats are building busting in the least, and then asked for evidence that his attacks weren't the same against Vader.

The same ones that casually destroy AT-ATs, AT-ST's, superstructures of the incomplete first Death Star and controlling the descent and pitch of a falling Imperial-Class Mark I Star-Destroyer, along with shattering multi-story building size moorings designed to hold up fucking skyhocks?

Fucking lol.

Edit: Also lol at blatant bullshitting that every single feat of reflexes or reaction time has to do with short range Precognition when EU has showcased multiple of examples of this not being true.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

TWF said:


> Your the one making obtuse claims that Starkiller's feats are building busting in the least, and then asked for evidence that his attacks were the same ones that casually destroy AT-ATs, AT-ST's, superstructures of the incomplete first Death Star and controlling the descent and pitch of a falling Imperial-Class Mark I Star-Destroyer?
> 
> Fucking lol.







TWF said:


> Edit: Also lol at blatant bullshitting that every single feat of reflexes or reaction time has to do with short range Precognition when EU has showcased multiple of examples of this not being true.



But then again...Vader hasn't.


----------



## Fang (Apr 4, 2009)

:snorlax:

Also lol at being so petty that you quoted me in your signature.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

It's a grand summary of your debating tactics, I thought I'll keep it as a reminder of what I'll be facing the next time we squared off.


----------



## Fang (Apr 4, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> But then again...Vader hasn't.



It's pretty bad form when your resorting to shitty 4chan memes. Much less that Vader has and Jedi Order's precognition was disabled for the most part by Palpatine's Shroud of Darkness since before 32 BBY.

Much less you still ignored the fact that even without Precognition they have hyper-enhanced reflexes to deal with hypersonic projectiles.



ScreenXSurfer said:


> It's a grand summary of your debating tactics, I thought I'll keep it as a reminder of what I'll be facing the next time we squared off.



So your trolling, again.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

TWF said:


> It's pretty bad form when your resorting to shitty 4chan memes.


A meme which fit a perfect situation and explained in a manner which left out the stupidity. I could have said the exact same thing, but a picture is worth a thousand words and I'm not fond of walls of text.


> Much less that Vader has and Jedi Order's precognition was disabled for the most part by Palpatine's Shroud of Darkness since before 32 BBY.


Long range precognition.  Battle precog is as fine as ever.


> Much less you still ignored the fact that even without Precognition they have hyper-enhanced reflexes to deal with hypersonic projectiles.


Doesn't matter in this debate so I tried to not bother with it.


> So your trolling, again.


If that's what your infantile mind sees.


----------



## Quelsatron (Apr 4, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Vader doesn't tend to have his murders be painful, nor horrible. And Pain can't be Mind-Raped by Vader. And spam? Point out which of my post are spam.
> 
> I say 3/5 times, Pain wins.
> 
> ...



That's _spa*nn*ing_ not spamming


----------



## Seyta (Apr 4, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Vader doesn't tend to have his murders be painful, nor horrible. And Pain can't be Mind-Raped by Vader. *And spam? Point out which of my post are spam.
> *
> I say 3/5 times, Pain wins.
> 
> ...



Yes, Pain can be mind-raped by Vader.
Because the battle is between only Deva Pain and Vader, it will be implied that Deva is acting as an independent entity from Nagato.
If not, it would have been a battle between Nagato USING Deva Pain, and Vader.
If Deva is acting as an independent entity, then he has a mind. If he has a mind, then it can be attacked.

And look at the bolded part you typed out.
Now look at the post of mine you were quoting.
When did I ever say that you were spamming...?

Also, you'd probably want to get rid of the quotes in your sig.
When you're trying to deface somebody through a public display like THAT, it almost always signifies that you're trying to accomplish an act of revenge, and in this case, it's revenge against somebody who argued with you.
Revenge like THAT, in turn, is an indication that you lost the argument, and needed a way to redeem face.


----------



## Fang (Apr 4, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> A meme which fit a perfect situation and explained in a manner which left out the stupidity. I could have said the exact same thing, but a picture is worth a thousand words and I'm not fond of walls of text.



Basically your excusing yourself to troll.



> Long range precognition.  Battle precog is as fine as ever.



Clairvoyance for the Jedi Order according to Windu and Yoda? Fucked up by the Shroud of Darkness that Palpatine/Sidious casted before 32 BBY with the veil of the Dark Side.

Long Range Precognition? Gone. Normal Precognition? Still fucked up by the Dark Side's Shroud of Darkness to the point that they didn't know they were getting betrayed by the Clone Troopers due to Sidious's Order 66.

Hyper-enhanced Force gifted reflexes? Still working fine. Even if it was battle Prescience, they're reflexes have to match the speed which their mind operates to accomodate their anticipatory reflexes.



> Doesn't matter in this debate so I tried to not bother with it.



Okay.



> If that's what your infantile mind sees.



Lol.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

TWF said:


> Basically your excusing yourself to troll.


Now you're just demonstrating your illiteracy again.


> Clairvoyance for the Jedi Order according to Windu and Yoda? Fucked up by the Shroud of Darkness that Palpatine/Sidious casted before 32 BBY with the veil of the Dark Side.
> 
> Long Range Precognition? Gone. Normal Precognition? Still fucked up by the Dark Side's Shroud of Darkness to the point that they didn't know they were getting betrayed by the Clone Troopers due to Sidious's Order 66.


Because all those Jedi who deflected baster-fire from trusted soldiers instinctively was bullet-time reflexes, even though they were facing away from them and had their guard down against them. That takes reflexive precognition.


> Hyper-enhanced Force gifted reflexes? Still working fine. Even if it was battle Prescience, they're reflexes have to match the speed which their mind operates to accomodate their anticipatory reflexes.


Their reflexes have to match their mind to match their reflexes? How daft. And I already explained this to you several times, the speed at which the mind operates while under reflex and instinctive action is far superior to which the mind operates when not.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

Seyta said:


> Yes, Pain can be mind-raped by Vader.
> Because the battle is between only Deva Pain and Vader, it will be implied that Deva is acting as an independent entity from Nagato.
> If not, it would have been a battle between Nagato USING Deva Pain, and Vader.
> If Deva is acting as an independent entity, then he has a mind. If he has a mind, then it can be attacked.


No, because Pain's body is purely operated by Chakra, not neural signals. There is no mind here.


> And look at the bolded part you typed out.
> Now look at the post of mine you were quoting.
> When did I ever say that you were spamming...?


It was a mistake.


> Also, you'd probably want to get rid of the quotes in your sig.
> When you're trying to deface somebody through a public display like THAT, it almost always signifies that you're trying to accomplish an act of revenge, and in this case, it's revenge against somebody who argued with you.
> Revenge like THAT, in turn, is an indication that you lost the argument, and needed a way to redeem face.


I find it hilarious and don't believe I need to redeem anything when I won the debate. But I'll remove it.


TWF said:


> Also lol at being so petty that you quoted me in your signature.



Coming from the guy who neg reped me over a debate.


----------



## Fang (Apr 4, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Now you're just demonstrating your illiteracy again.



Now your flaming. 



> Because all those Jedi who deflected baster-fire from trusted soldiers instinctively was bullet-time reflexes, even though they were facing away from them and had their guard down against them. That takes reflexive precognition.



Ki-Adi Mundi turned around when Marines weren't rallying with him after recieving Order 66, he then started deflecting and blocking blaster fire towards himself before he started getting overcome.



> Their reflexes have to match their mind to match their reflexes? How daft.



Typo.



> And I already explained this to you several times, the speed at which the mind operates while under reflex and instinctive action is far superior to which the mind operates when not.



I'm aware of that.



ScreenXSurfer said:


> No, because Pain's body is purely operated by Chakra, not neural signals. There is no mind here.



Except Pain's bodies have brains that recieve chakra flow and the rule of Equivalence is on.



> Coming from the guy who neg reped me over a debate.



Considering how you were acting and behaving over Vader and Marek's feats, ignorning precedent, followed up with that throughout the argument, you really don't have much room to talk here.


----------



## Seyta (Apr 4, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> No, because Pain's body is purely operated by Chakra, not neural signals. There is no mind here.



The only one that doesn't operate on neural signals is the Puppet-like body.

With the rest of them, when Jiraiya stabbed them, they were "killed" until the other body resurrected them.

When Konahamaru used his rasengan on one, it was "killed" until resurrected.

When Naruto fought Pain, all of his bodies save the Deva were "killed", and he was unable to revive them at this point because the only body with the ability to do so was "killed" as well.

If they operate purely on Chakra signals, none of them could be incapacitated in the way they were.
Hell, if they operated purely on Chakra signals, as long as somebody didn't remove all of the Chakra receivers, they would be immortal.

Because the bodies were incapacitated through normal means, they function like standard bodies. When they took a massive hit or were cut apart, their organs and nerves were damaged, and even if Pain sent chakra to them, they would be unable to function.

If none of the bodies had a mind. None of them would have nerves. If none of them had nerves, like you said, they would have to operate purely on Chakra control. If they operated purely on Chakra control, it would be impossible to "kill" them without stopping the Chakra transmissions, but the Konoha ninja did it multiple times.
Therefore, they don't operate purely on Chakra signals, and require at least a nervous system to operate.

Pain sends the Chakra signals, the Chakra gives the body the energy required to live, the body functions, the brain functions, the brain sends signals to the nerves based on the Chakra signals being given, and the body reacts.

They ALL have minds. Of course this isn't specifically stated in the manga, but the evidence from the manga given above more or less rests with them operating on Chakra AND a close-to-standard human anatomy than not.

Therefore, in the OBD if Deva Pain is set to battle, and is NOT being controlled by Nagato, he will have a mind, he will use that mind to think, and if somebody decides to attack that mind, he will succumb to the effects.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

TWF said:


> Ki-Adi Mundi turned around when Marines weren't rallying with him after recieving Order 66, he then started deflecting and blocking blaster fire towards himself before he started getting overcome.


Alright, point. What about the dialogue Qui-Gon gave Anakin before the pod-race? 
Remember, concentrate on the moment. Feel. Don't think. Trust your instincts. Anakin wasn't aware of the force enough to juice himself, he didn't even know what the force was. That was reflexive precognition. Does the novelization describe having everything go in slow-motion for Anakin?


> Considering how you were acting and behaving over Vader and Marek's feats, ignorning precedent, followed up with that throughout the argument, you really don't have much room to talk here.


I wasn't accepting hamstrung feats. "Marek can do this so Vader can tank it" when the evidence provided doesn't represent that.


Seyta said:


> -snip-


That makes sense, and I can't see a flaw (except that Konohamaru _didn't_ kill that body, just incapacitated it) and it fits. Vader can mind rape Pain then.


----------



## Marth6789 (Apr 4, 2009)

Wait, how can Vader mind rape Pain? He would have to be able to affect Nagato himself.
Nagato implants his "will" and "speech" into the bodies through the use of chakra recievers.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 4, 2009)

If Nagato was in this debate, that would be the case...


----------



## Marth6789 (Apr 4, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> If Nagato was in this debate, that would be the case...



So in the OBD do we assume that Nagato isn't present or something?


----------



## C-Moon (Apr 4, 2009)

Yes. I don't see what he could be now aside from a target anyway.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 4, 2009)

Since Nagato is not involved, then Deva Pain drops dead, lacking a chakra source. 

If he's got a mind, he can be mind raped. If he doesn't have a mind, then he's a vegetable and the entire fight is moot.


----------



## Marth6789 (Apr 4, 2009)

Gamma Akutabi said:


> Yes. I don't see what he could be now aside from a target anyway.



Well he can operate over Kilometers so im sure he'd be fine in most cases.

Anyways, I see where this is going, Vader wins.


----------



## The World (Apr 4, 2009)

Seyta said:


> .
> 
> When Konahamaru used his rasengan on one, it was "killed" until resurrected.



It seems you forgot seeing as how Hell realm was never killed by Konohamaru, he wasn't even incapacitated, he was fine and standing when Animal Path summoned him to deactivate him for Chou Shinra Tensei.
Short range?
He's the second one from the right.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Apr 4, 2009)

So Vader snaps pain's neck and then he wins.
Basically that's the consensus here


----------



## Narcissus (Apr 4, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Pain can't be Mind Raped by Vader, and the neck snap takes several seconds to finish. By which time Pain will have blasted him across the landscape.  Pain has no defense against the Force, I never advocated he did.



Pain has to make physical movements to use ST.  Prove he can use ST before Vader does his neck snap. Now.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Apr 4, 2009)

How exactly does Pain blast him halfway across the landscape? I mean once Vader get pain in his force crush he's a goner. His windpipe explodes GG


----------



## The World (Apr 4, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> Pain has to make physical movements to use ST.  Prove he can use ST before Vader does his neck snap. Now.



Actually no he doesn't, he can use it spherically/omnidirectional.

introduced Pain's attack.


----------



## Narcissus (Apr 4, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> Actually no he doesn't, he can use it spherically/omnidirectional.
> 
> introduced Pain's attack.



Give me another example of him using ST without physical movement and I'll concede the point.  Otherwise, it's an inconsistency.

Even if you produce another example, it will not change the fact that a simple ST isn't going to kill Vader, and it will give him plenty of time to do a force neck snap. 

Pain is losing here.


----------



## The World (Apr 4, 2009)

It was implied here Link removed and also here Link removed There is probably more but i couldn't find it.

But you already said if i find more it doesn't matter because Pain loses anyway so. 

It looks like to me whoever is faster on the draw can win because both can do instant attacks, but like alot of people say Vader is faster in reflexes so i give it to him 6/10 times. But Pain does have a chance at winning even if it is very slim.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 5, 2009)

rawrawraw said:


> So Vader snaps pain's neck and then he wins.
> Basically that's the consensus here


No, that's the consensus among the ignoramus of Star Wars and Darth Vader. Neck snap doesn't "just happen" like everybody makes it out as. It takes several seconds to actually kill a man using it. Pain's ST is instant.


Narcissus said:


> Pain has to make physical movements to use ST.  Prove he can use ST before Vader does his neck snap. Now.


I see you just ignored my previous post, like always. Erecting barriers of ignorance doesn't make you look the debater.


rawrawraw said:


> How exactly does Pain blast him halfway across the landscape? I mean once Vader get pain in his force crush he's a goner. His windpipe explodes GG


How exactly is he a goner? Provide one source of Vader instantly killing a person with Force Choke


Narcissus said:


> Give me another example of him using ST without physical movement and I'll concede the point.  Otherwise, it's an inconsistency.




We have three examples now.


> Even if you produce another example, it will not change the fact that a simple ST isn't going to kill Vader, and it will give him plenty of time to do a force neck snap.


Depending on the magnitude of the attack, it will fuck Vader up for him to do it again and again. Do you want to debate this with me?


> Pain is losing here.


That's been established. It isn't a curbstomp like the opening post claim.


----------



## Narcissus (Apr 5, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> I see you just ignored my previous post, like always. Erecting barriers of ignorance doesn't make you look the debater.



BAWWWWWWWWWWWWW.

The only ignorant one here is you for thinking that Pain stands any chance. Ad Hominems do not make you look the debater.  Nice try though. 





> We have three examples now.



Clearly you ignored the latter part of my post.  How typical of you.  None of it changes the fact that Pain loses.



> Depending on the magnitude of the attack, it will fuck Vader up for him to do it again and again. Do you want to debate this with me?



Good thing ST has never killed anyone, so it's not going to kill Vader.  Rather, it'll give Vader time to kill Pain.



> *That's been established.* It isn't a curbstomp like the opening post claim.



The I accept your concession to this debate.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 5, 2009)

For the record, Narcissus, just how far does your knowledge of Star Wars extend?



Narcissus said:


> BAWWWWWWWWWWWWW.
> 
> The only ignorant one here is you for thinking that Pain stands any chance. Ad Hominems do not make you look the debater.  Nice try though.


Fail rebuttal, you haven't proven anything. And nice failure of usage of the Ad Hominem phrase.


> Clearly you ignored the latter part of my post.  How typical of you.  None of it changes the fact that Pain loses.


I answered it, unlike you I actually can actually formulate a response to a debate. Which includes addressing each point your opponent brings to light, which you fail to do in every thread I've seen you in. Pain loses only if Vader manages to strangle Pain while being launched across the landscape.


> Good thing ST has never killed anyone, so it's not going to kill Vader.  Rather, it'll give Vader time to kill Pain.


Doesn't mean it can't kill somebody. Throw common sense out the window, because when somebody is launched several hundred feet at high velocity, the landing is going to break bones, and in this case, machinery. Vader had a good chunk of his armor stripped off from having a pillar crash into him. This will be a much more devastating attack.


> The I accept your concession to this debate.


I haven't conceded anything to you, which this argument is strictly about
"Prove he can use ST before Vader does his neck snap. Now. "
When in the post you directly responded to, I said this
"and the neck snap takes several seconds to finish. By which time Pain will have blasted him across the landscape."

Which you just ignored completely. Prove that Vader can instantly neck snap a person. Burden is yours.


EDIT: Why aren't there mods to address this kind of crap? I answer every point directed at me when Narcissus hasn't answered one of mine.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Apr 5, 2009)

Vader stomps. Deva's little gay rip off is nothign compared to Vader


----------



## The World (Apr 5, 2009)

I didn't know Lucas had a copyright on force attraction/repulsion powers.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 5, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> No no no, I'm just trying to put an end to the wankery. "Arguing against" does not translate into "hate with a passion." I greatly enjoy Star Wars and the EU, and unlike you, I actually have some knowledge about it.
> 
> Also, prove that Vader can move at speeds greater than 450km.



A Padawan Kenobi can move at those speeds, this is calculated from the speed of the Droideka's blaster, and the fact that him and Qui-Gon _dodged_ them.  Now Vader is leagues and leagues above padawan Kenobi, I see no reason why he couldn't replicate the feat. 


ScreenXSurfer said:


> I haven't conceded anything to you, which this argument is strictly about
> "Prove he can use ST before Vader does his neck snap. Now. "
> When in the post you directly responded to, I said this
> "and the neck snap takes several seconds to finish. By which time Pain will have blasted him across the landscape."
> ...


Link removed
He instantly neck snaps Kento Marek


----------



## Stroev (Apr 5, 2009)

Vader has enough time(as some say it's not as fast as wanker smake it out to be) to break Pain. As Pain's neck is squeezed, that's pretty much hindering him. 

Though both attacks can be used at range; so it's whoever strikes first(though if we go by EU Vader, doesn't he have better stats than movie?) If that was true, Vader stomps. Still.


----------



## enzymeii (Apr 5, 2009)

Hm... Deva Realm's feats are far more impressive (I doubt Vader, even in the wacky EU, has ever destroyed a city), and I think force-choke takes some time to kill.  A lightsaber's gonna cut Pain's exendo-rods like butter, but as long as Deva Realm stays at a distance, I'd say he can take this handily.


----------



## Stroev (Apr 5, 2009)

It all depends on Vader's choking range or how quickly he can use a ranged attack, is what I'd like to think.


----------



## The Saltiest Pizza (Apr 5, 2009)

Vader uses the force to remove the Chakra rods. 

(Provided he has knowledge)


----------



## Narcissus (Apr 5, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Fail rebuttal, you haven't proven anything.



Neither have you.



> I answered it, unlike you I actually can actually formulate a response to a debate. Which includes addressing each point your opponent brings to light, which you fail to do in every thread I've seen you in. Pain loses only if Vader manages to strangle Pain while being launched across the landscape.



From what I've seen of you thus far, you do not debate anything, but rather use a pompus attitude to try and win an argument, and you fail at it.  If both attacks are instant, then Pain's neck gets snapped while he get hit with ST.  Since ST has failed to kill anything, Vader survives, Pain dies.  End of discussion.



> *Doesn't mean it can't kill somebody.* Throw common sense out the window, because when somebody is launched several hundred feet at high velocity, the landing is going to break bones, and in this case, machinery. Vader had a good chunk of his armor stripped off from having a pillar crash into him. This will be a much more devastating attack.



Prove it.



> *I haven't conceded anything *to you, which this argument is strictly about
> "Prove he can use ST before Vader does his neck snap. Now. "
> When in the post you directly responded to, I said this
> "and the neck snap takes several seconds to finish. By which time Pain will have blasted him across the landscape."



You admit that Pain loses.  I accept your concession to the thread.  Nothing more to argue about.



> Which you just ignored completely. Prove that Vader can instantly neck snap a person. Burden is yours.



No need to when Vader kills Pain either way in the manner I've already stated.



> EDIT: Why aren't there mods to address this kind of crap? I answer every point directed at me when Narcissus hasn't answered one of mine.



How cute.  But crying to the mods when you lose won't help you win.  Sorry...


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 5, 2009)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> A Padawan Kenobi can move at those speeds, this is calculated from the speed of the Droideka's blaster, and the fact that him and Qui-Gon _dodged_ them.  Now Vader is leagues and leagues above padawan Kenobi, I see no reason why he couldn't replicate the feat.


Obi-Wan defeated Vader, Vader since then had both his legs replaced and has demonstrated no speed feat of any note.

Usiing your logic, Pain should be able to use any non-unique ability other Shinobi have demonstrated.


> Link removed
> He instantly neck snaps Kento Marek


After being held by the throat for over fifteen seconds.



Stroev said:


> Though both attacks can be used at range; so it's whoever strikes first(though if we go by EU Vader, doesn't he have better stats than movie?) If that was true, Vader stomps. Still.


He has better stats, but nothing is in "stomp" category.

And the Force Choke range is pretty much LOS, as Vader choked a man from a different star ship while staring at a real time video-feed of him.


Narcissus said:


> Neither have you.


Not my burden. Prove Vader can instantly force choke Pain to death.


> From what I've seen of you thus far, you do not debate anything, but rather use a pompus attitude to try and win an argument, and you fail at it.  If both attacks are instant, then Pain's neck gets snapped while he get hit with ST.  Since ST has failed to kill anything, Vader survives, Pain dies.  End of discussion.


I have a pompous attitude? This is coming from the guy named 'Narcissus' with a title 'I'm better than you', a signature 'I'm too good for my own good' who neg repped me "That's quite enough blather out of you for one day. " because you couldn't prove me wrong about Time-Turner time travel.

I may be an asshole, but I'm only that way against people who lie in debates, exaggerate in debates, who can't read, and who just won't debate fairly. You fall under the last category.

Force Choke is instant, yes, but it isn't instant kill. In all instances it's been used by Vader, it has taken him several seconds to finally finish it off.


> Prove it.




You want me to prove people can die from crashing real hard? 50mph car crashes kill people that have the benefit of airbags. ST can launch three giant toads several kilometers. Now, unless those toads weigh less than 125 kilos each, Vader is going to fly across the landscape. All it needs to do is damage his life-support we've at least got a MAD, at most Pain just blast him again.


> You admit that Pain loses.  I accept your concession to the thread.  Nothing more to argue about.


No, I said he's on the losing side. Vader has more ways of killing Pain than vice-versa. I also said this isn't a curb-stomp, and I also said Pain has a good chance of killing Vader.

This is your third response where you haven't proven that Vader can kill Pain before Pain blast him.


> No need to when Vader kills Pain either way in the manner I've already stated.


Except he can't without being killed first.


> How cute.  But crying to the mods when you lose won't help you win.  Sorry...



I don't need mod help to win a debate against somebody like you. You'll either dodge every point I make against you then regress into spamming, or you'll just shut up when you know you're out of your league.


----------



## Xaosin (Apr 5, 2009)

Deva pain wins
A trip to pain and hell.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 5, 2009)

> Vader since then had both his legs replaced



Someone with robotic legs <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< someone without robotic legs.

Because everyone knows that robot legs are only good for standing and not doing anything like moving around or anything. 



> Usiing your logic, Pain should be able to use any non-unique ability other Shinobi have demonstrated.



It is conceivably possible that he could, had he access to the knowledge. However, assuming Vader has access to movement enhancing Force techniques because he is far superior to Kenobi as a Padawan is not the same as assuming Pain has access to every non-unique jutsu because he's the most powerful ninja in the world.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 5, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Someone with robotic legs <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< someone without robotic legs.
> 
> Because everyone knows that robot legs are only good for standing and not doing anything like moving around or anything.


You misunderstand. Nobody has shown the ability to focus the Force through artificial limbs to increase speed unlike natural limbs.


> It is conceivably possible that he could, had he access to the knowledge. However, assuming Vader has access to movement enhancing Force techniques because he is far superior to Kenobi as a Padawan is not the same as assuming Pain has access to every non-unique jutsu because he's the most powerful ninja in the world.



Why? There is no difference. If somebody is going to assume Vader can do X and Y because he is so great, why aren't we going to assume the same for Pain?


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 5, 2009)

> Nobody has shown the ability to focus the Force through artificial limbs to increase speed unlike natural limbs.



Luke's fake hand never seems to hamper his combat ability.



> Why? There is no difference. If somebody is going to assume Vader can do X and Y because he is so great, why aren't we going to assume the same for Pain?



Well for one, leaning movement enhancing Force techniques is basic schooling for Jedi whereas every single non-unique jutsu that exists is not.

For another, is Vader not an extremely powerful Force user? And as such, could he not use these techniques that he already has due to receiving Jedi training to their maximum ability?

So no, Vader having superior Force techniques to padawan Kenobi is not in any way shape or form the same as Pain having every jutsu that exists.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 5, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Luke's fake hand never seems to hamper his combat ability.


Replacing a part of one limb compared to replacing four limbs(Palpatine cut off his last organic arm) and having a life-support suit installed onto the entire body will result in a massive difference in performance. All his abilities are powers that don't require focusing through a body part.


> Well for one, learning movement enhancing Force techniques is basic schooling for Jedi


Since when?


> whereas every single non-unique jutsu that exists is not.
> 
> For another, is Vader not an extremely powerful Force user? And as such, could he not use these techniques that he already has due to receiving Jedi training to their maximum ability?
> 
> So no, Vader having superior Force techniques to padawan Kenobi is not in any way shape or form the same as Pain having every jutsu that exists.


But Vader, as of post Mustafar, has not shown any ability to increase his movement. We have no reason to assume he can do any of those things after replacing all his limbs and having a suit grafted onto his body. That's why I haven't suggested his TK and mind manipulation powers have decreased any, because the only physical exertion they require is just moving his hand.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 5, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Replacing a part of one limb compared to replacing four limbs(Palpatine cut off his last organic arm) and having a life-support suit installed onto the entire body will result in a massive difference in performance. All his abilities are powers that don't require focusing through a body part.
> 
> Since when?
> 
> But Vader, as of post Mustafar, has not shown any ability to increase his movement. We have no reason to assume he can do any of those things after replacing all his limbs and having a suit grafted onto his body. That's why I haven't suggested his TK and mind manipulation powers have decreased any, because the only physical exertion they require is just moving his hand.


Its a generic skill, as shown in several video games, and in the books, enhancing speed isn't something that would cause any Jedi to bat an eye.  Also Vader is a Jedi Hunter.  He kept up with the Dark Woman without any qualms


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 5, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> The former, I never mentioned the latter.



You said quote:

"Replacing a part of one limb compared to replacing four limbs(Palpatine cut off his last organic arm) and having a life-support suit installed onto the entire body will result in a massive difference in performance. All his abilities are powers that don't require focusing through a body part"

In lay man's terms: It is more difficult to channel force to two fake arms and two fake legs than to one fake arm.

Luke's arm is fake, he can channel force through it.
Vader's limbs are fake, he can channel force through them.

Vader has a harder time because there's more concentration required.

Harder and impossible are two different things.




> Source it, and quote it.





"It(Star Wars) was originally released on May 25, 1977".

Do you get my point, or do I have to spell it out for you?



> See, this is why I get pissed off. You're completely ignoring the fact that all of Vader's limbs have been replaced by artificial versions which can't be increased by the force. I said that before.



You've already admitted that artificial limbs can have the Force channeled through them, rendering this entire thing moot. 

Moot is a funny word. It's like Moo with a T. Only with no cows.




> Now you're just being a smart-ass. Forgetting and losing the capability are two different things.



Maybe, maybe. Good thing neither of these things has happened to Vader.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Apr 5, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> How exactly is he a goner? Provide one source of Vader instantly killing a person with Force Choke



Here's movie Vader playing around:
Yep, this looks like a Covenant homeworld, doesn't it folks?

He's not even trying at all.
And don't tell me Pain's windpipe is more durable than a normal humans.
Pain dies a horribly, horribly death.


----------



## The World (Apr 5, 2009)

Pain is more durable than a normal human daw. For one he is dead, 2 he blocked hits from SM Naruto with Class 100 strength and 3 he took a partial blast from KN6.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 5, 2009)

Pain's not durable enough to survive being carved up like a thanksgiving turkey by Vader's lightsaber. 

And being dead doesn't affect(effect?) durability, it just affects willingness to take damage.


----------



## Narcissus (Apr 5, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Not my burden. Prove Vader can instantly force choke Pain to death.



What are you rambling about?  Clearly I daid that even if Pain uses ST on Vader, he will still have time to snap his neck.  I even said "give me another example and I'll concede that point, but it won't matter because Vader will still win."  Reading comprehension fail on your part.



> I have a pompous attitude? This is coming from the guy named 'Narcissus' with a title 'I'm better than you', a signature 'I'm too good for my own good' who neg repped me "That's quite enough blather out of you for one day. " because you couldn't prove me wrong about Time-Turner time travel.



My name, title, and sig may make me seem arrogant, but in reality, I'm one of the nicer people in the OBD.  Furthermore, this has nothing to do with the subject at hand.  Stay on-topic.



> I may be an asshole, but I'm only that way against people who lie in debates, exaggerate in debates, who can't read, and who just won't debate fairly. You fall under the last category.



And much like TWF, you fall into the category of those who try to win debates via arrogant attitude rather than actual argument.



> Force Choke is instant, yes, but it isn't instant kill. In all instances it's been used by Vader, it has taken him several seconds to finally finish it off.



Which will be enough time to finish off Pain.



> You want me to prove people can die from crashing real hard? 50mph car crashes kill people that have the benefit of airbags. ST can launch three giant toads several kilometers. Now, unless those toads weigh less than 125 kilos each, Vader is going to fly across the landscape. All it needs to do is damage his life-support we've at least got a MAD, at most Pain just blast him again.



So in other words, you have no proof of ST ever killing anyone (even Hinata survived) in the manga, just speculation.  Give me evidence from the canon, or STFU.



> No, I said *he's on the losing side.* Vader has more ways of killing Pain than vice-versa. I also said this isn't a curb-stomp, and I also said Pain has a good chance of killing Vader.



So like i said already, you admit Vader wins.  I accept your concession to the entire match.



> This is your third response where you haven't proven that Vader can kill Pain before Pain blast him.



Doesn't matter if it hits him or not, Vader is going to kill Pain either way.



> Except he can't without being killed first.



You've already said Pain will lose.  Contradiction much?



> I don't need mod help to win a debate against somebody like you. You'll either dodge every point I make against you then regress into spamming, or you'll just shut up when you know you're out of your league.



Bitch moan, grumble groan.  Fact is, you cried about the mods not helping you, and you are arguing for Pain when you know he loses.  All your arguments have been refuted, and Vader wins.  Therefore, you lose.

And as I recall, the only one to post in spam in this thread thus far has been you because you were losing to TWF and couldn't make an effective counter argument.

-----

Darth Vader has won this match.  End of story.


----------



## Quelsatron (Apr 5, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> So in other words, you have no proof of ST ever killing anyone (even Hinata survived) in the manga, just speculation.  Give me evidence from the canon, or STFU.



This is possibly the dumbest thing i have ever heard someone say


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 5, 2009)

It's not so much a matter of Shinra Tensei being unable to kill so much as it is Pain never using it to do so. Ever. even when he had no reason not to.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 5, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> You said quote:
> 
> "Replacing a part of one limb compared to replacing four limbs(Palpatine cut off his last organic arm) and having a life-support suit installed onto the entire body will result in a massive difference in performance. All his abilities are powers that don't require focusing through a body part"
> 
> ...


No, I never said Luke could channel the force through his arm.


> Luke's arm is fake, he can channel force through it.
> Vader's limbs are fake, he can channel force through them.


Source and quote Luke channeling the Force through his artificial limb.


> Vader has a harder time because there's more concentration required.
> 
> Harder and impossible are two different things.


With his natural limbs gone he can never do it.


> "It(Star Wars) was originally released on May 25, 1977".
> 
> Do you get my point, or do I have to spell it out for you?


No, spell out where it says learning to increase one's speed is standard schooling for all Jedi. The Jedi Order is only mentioned in passing in A New Hope, so it isn't from there. 


> You've already admitted that artificial limbs can have the Force channeled through them, rendering this entire thing moot.


I have admitted no such thing. Your point was Luke wasn't slowed down by having his hand cut off and replaced. Vader replacing all his limbs to Luke replacing his hand will result in a major gap in performance.


> Maybe, maybe. Good thing neither of these things has happened to Vader.


Are you really saying Vader's limbs haven't been replaced? Because unless somebody can prove Vader can channel the force through his artificial limbs, this part of your post is untrue.



rawrawraw said:


> Here's movie Vader playing around:
> Yep, this looks like a Covenant homeworld, doesn't it folks?
> 
> He's not even trying at all.
> ...


Hmm, I don't see any evidence that he will instantly kill Pain in that post. Come back when you have some.



Narcissus said:


> What are you rambling about?  Clearly I daid that even if Pain uses ST on Vader, he will still have time to snap his neck.  I even said "give me another example and I'll concede that point, but it won't matter because Vader will still win."  Reading comprehension fail on your part.


You haven't even proven how Vader will win using the method you described. Fourth post gone with out proving anything. Debating fail on your part.


> My name, title, and sig may make me seem arrogant, but in reality, I'm one of the nicer people in the OBD.  Furthermore, this has nothing to do with the subject at hand.  Stay on-topic.


Nice? I'm arguing against Harry Potter, and you come out and start ripping into me for even taking a stance in favor of Twilight. Before that, I had no contact with you. And you're the one that branched off topic in the first place, don't be a hypocrite.


> And much like TWF, you fall into the category of those who try to win debates via arrogant attitude rather than actual argument.


No, I win debates by having proof. You haven't offered a single shred of proof this entire thread, and instead when I offer mine, you call it rambling. And I'm the arrogant one? 


> Which will be enough time to finish off Pain.


No it wont. 


> So in the other words, you have no proof of ST ever killing anyone (even Hinata survived) in the manga, just speculation.  Give me evidence from the canon, or STFU.


It's simple physics. 

High-Energy Injury
In high-energy injuries, bone is broken because the force acting on it was significant. These injuries would include falls, car accidents and sports injuries. These injuries are often called "traumatic fractures." 

When an object comes under a certain amount of strain, it breaks. Fuck, all of Gamabunta's bones were broken, Vader's life-support system stands no chance.


> So like i said already, you admit Vader wins.  I accept your concession to the entire match.


Then I change my mind. Vader loses.


> Doesn't matter if it hits him or not, Vader is going to kill Pain either way.


I'll take this as a concession as you haven't proven how Vader kills Pain.


> You've already said Pain will lose.  Contradiction much?


No, because I never said Pain will lose.


> Bitch moan, grumble groan.  Fact is, you cried about the mods not helping you,


No, I cried about mods not having rules about debates. SDN, SB and ASVS has been doing this for the past ten years, and all three of them have rules where you _have_ to provide evidence to support your claim, and it's quite infuriating when somebody who doesn't pretends to be the victor. You claim that Vader will win, with out proving how.


> and you are arguing for Pain when you know he loses.  All your arguments have been refuted,


Only one of my arguments have been refuted, and I conceded that line of argument.


> And as I recall, the only one to post in spam in this thread thus far has been you because you were losing to TWF and couldn't make an effective counter argument.


Lol, quote the part where I couldn't make an effective counter argument.


> -----
> 
> Darth Vader has won this match.  End of story.


If it makes you feel better so you don't have to respond, then keep telling yourself that.



Onomatopoeia said:


> It's not so much a matter of Shinra Tensei being unable to kill so much as it is Pain never using it to do so. Ever. even when he had no reason not to.



I guess that's why everybody removes CIS and PIS from debates.



Fuck it: I'm done with this thread. Pain and Vader both have good chances at killing each other. After reviewing the thread, I state the Pain's chances are far more more likely due to his attack not requiring movement, being instant effect. Vader will likely survive the first few blast due to the durability he demonstrated in SW: TFU, and may be able to recover and strangle Pain. 

This match is a toss up, with no definite winner.


----------



## KazeYama (Apr 5, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Replacing a part of one limb compared to replacing four limbs(Palpatine cut off his last organic arm) and having a life-support suit installed onto the entire body will result in a massive difference in performance. All his abilities are powers that don't require focusing through a body part.
> 
> Since when?
> 
> But Vader, as of post Mustafar, has not shown any ability to increase his movement. We have no reason to assume he can do any of those things after replacing all his limbs and having a suit grafted onto his body. That's why I haven't suggested his TK and mind manipulation powers have decreased any, because the only physical exertion they require is just moving his hand.



Have you even seen the star wars movies? I'm just asking because you make things up that are blatantly obvious. Vader lost one arm in the duel vs. Dooku in AOTC. In his fight against Kenobi he lost his other organic arm and both of the legs. This was blatantly obvious how he was trying to pull himself out of the laval with his robotic arm. Where do you get palpatine cutting his arm off from? 

Also he still has the core muscles and flesh above the elbow and knees so he can easily channel the force through his hips and shoulders to enhance his abilities. Not to mention his robotic limbs give him super human physical strength as evidenced by holding a guy above his head with one hand and effortlessly jumping and gliding during his saber duels vs. luke on bespin and the death star.

Not even counting EU stuff. Pein hasn't shown anything that would stop him from getting his windpipe crushed or from a saber decapitating him.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 5, 2009)

KazeYama said:


> Have you even seen the star wars movies?


Is this a rhetoric?


> I'm just asking because you make things up that are blatantly obvious. Vader lost one arm in the duel vs. Dooku in AOTC. In his fight against Kenobi he lost his other organic arm and both of the legs. This was blatantly obvious how he was trying to pull himself out of the laval with his robotic arm. Where do you get palpatine cutting his arm off from?


Mara Jade, the Emperor's Hand, tells Luke in the Thrawn trilogy. Palpatine cut off his hand for failing at Yavin. This came out before the prequels.

But your instance works as well, so it doesn't matter. And if I'm making shit up, you can check with TWF or Estrecca.


> Also he still has the core muscles and flesh above the elbow and knees so he can easily channel the force through his hips and shoulders to enhance his abilities.


Except all his fights show this is not the case.


> Not to mention his robotic limbs give him super human physical strength as evidenced by holding a guy above his head with one hand and effortlessly jumping and gliding during his saber duels vs. luke on bespin and the death star.


And this doesn't matter in this debate.


> Not even counting EU stuff. Pein hasn't shown anything that would stop him from getting his windpipe crushed or from a saber decapitating him.


Perhaps you should read the thread before stating something I've debunked for the last six pages.


----------



## KazeYama (Apr 5, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Is this a rhetoric?
> 
> Mara Jade, the Emperor's Hand, tells Luke in the Thrawn trilogy. Palpatine cut off his hand for failing at Yavin. This came out before the prequels.
> 
> ...



Why would cutting off Vader's already robotic hand effect his force performance? Anything that contradicts the films directly is non canon. 

I don't see how feats of Vader having superhuman strength and movement abilities don't factor into this fight. Also why would you say he can't channel force into his body at all. If he still has flesh and blood parts he can channel the force into them and enhance his abilities. 

I've just seen 6 pages of you making up excuses or ignoring obvious reasons why Vader wins.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 5, 2009)

KazeYama said:


> Why would cutting off Vader's already robotic hand effect his force performance? Anything that contradicts the films directly is non canon.


I guess you didn't understand when I said "But your instance works as well, so it doesn't matter."


> I don't see how feats of Vader having superhuman strength and movement abilities don't factor into this fight.


He has no feats of superhuman movement ability, and his superhuman strength won't even get put into use against Pain. I shouldn't have to explain why.


> Also why would you say he can't channel force into his body at all. If he still has flesh and blood parts he can channel the force into them and enhance his abilities.


George Lucas said himself that Vader's ability dropped due to losing his organic parts, and I _NEVER_ said he couldn't channel the force into his organic body, I said he couldn't channel it into his artificial body. THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF WHY I GET PISSED.

His knees have been replaced by metal versions. Even if he can force channel into his hips, he wouldn't be able to fully utilize that speed since he can't channel it into his knees.


> I've just seen 6 pages of you making up excuses or ignoring obvious reasons why Vader wins.


Quote my excuses. Everything I've stated is canon, unlike many people here. And there is no obvious reason of why Vader wins. I know how to concede, there is nothing here for me to concede.


Everybody's argument is

"Vader wins by Force Choke" which takes several seconds to kill.


----------



## The World (Apr 5, 2009)

I like how people ignore how Pain has a instant AOE repulsion technique that was shown to knock Kakashi back and destroy a stone wall into rubble and say he get's completely curbed. Link removed
I don't think it's as one sided as people think it is.
And so much for throwing a lightsaber at him.
Link removed
Link removed He can deflect it.
Link removed


----------



## KazeYama (Apr 5, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> It doesn't matter if he's in a combat scenario. Only if he is in combat does this come into play. He wont enter combat until they actually begin to fight. Only then will his reflexes take place. The conclusion of this fight is "who can raise their hands first."
> 
> Because genjutsu _*affects CHAKRA*_! Nagato's Chakra is through each of those bodies, and it what allows him to see what is going on in those bodies. Thus, if a body's chakra is being affected by Genjutsu, all the data it sends to Nagato will be influenced it as well. How the fuck is this not fundamental?
> 
> ...



Pain has a brain, he has all of the susceptibilities to mental attack. Him having chakra in no exempts him or gives him immunity to telepathic attacks. This isn't even taking into account how he has crappy genjutsu defense. Whether you are including nagato or you are counting Pein Vader's telepathy would work on both of them. 

Vader has precog, Pein has nothing to counter it and Vader has faster reactions, nothing is stopping Vader from using a Saber throw or a telekinetically crushing Pein before Pein can attack. 

If Pein does attack Vader has shown the ability to shrug off attacks stronger than what Pein has to offer. There isn't a reason as to why Vader couldn't counter with his own tk anyway since he knows every move Pein is going to make, having a 5 second interval is more than enough to kill one person.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 5, 2009)

Hm, Vader casually blocked a Force Push from Kento Marek, why should Shinra Tensei be any different.  He force tooled Rahm Kota with ease, and "killed" Galen Marek twice.  Among multiple other feats, he also tooled  seasoned Jedi Masters that would tool Pain.  Also what's stopping Vader from force choking Nagato, he can choke a person from across the Galaxy, doing so to Nagato would be easy.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 5, 2009)

KazeYama said:


> Pain has a brain, he has all of the susceptibilities to mental attack.


You're going to have to clarify how this happens, as all instances of Mind-fuckery I recall don't happen instantly. Pain will blast him before he can get anywhere.


> Him having chakra in no exempts him or gives him immunity to telepathic attacks.


Yes I conceded that, and If you'd read the entire thread you'd have known that already.


> This isn't even taking into account how he has crappy genjutsu defense.


This is almost a non-sequitur. Also, Jedi mind-tricks only work half the time and usually on nameless mooks. Hell, you can be immune to them by being a different species, having something implanted in the brain, or having an extremely high willpower. Using mind-fuckery is grasping at straws when nothing else works.


> Vader has precog, Pein has nothing to counter it and Vader has faster reactions, nothing is stopping Vader from using a Saber throw or a telekinetically crushing Pein before Pein can attack.


Except Pain blasting Vader the instant the fight starts. Faster reflexes won't help, precog won't help and neither will fucking saber throw (how stupid).


> If Pein does attack Vader has shown the ability to shrug off attacks stronger than what Pein has to offer.


No he hasn't. You're making shit up, Vader has gone down to having two pillars being TK'd into him and being bashed around like a pin-ball by Starkiller in all three versions of TF: U. Quit making shit up.


> There isn't a reason as to why Vader couldn't counter with his own tk anyway since he knows every move Pein is going to make, having a 5 second interval is more than enough to kill one person.


This is exactly why I said it's whoever gets the first hit early in the debate. Force choke has nothing to do with it, Mind fucking has nothing to do with it, saber fighting as nothing to do with it, having fucking super speed/strength has nothing to do with it. It's whoever's TK comes out on top in the opening match. So far, Pain has shown to have greater TK than Vader. If Pain hits him with the first blast, he is surely going to have enough time to blast him again before Vader recovers.

Also, he _doesn't_ know the first move Pain is going to make. Precognition does not work that way. The Force just warns him how he is going to be attacked and he defends himself accordingly.



Also, the next time you reply. Don't be lazy and actually respond to each part of my post like everybody else does.



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Also what's stopping Vader from force choking Nagato, he can choke a person from across the Galaxy, doing so to Nagato would be easy.



Line of sight. All instances of Force Choke required line of sight. Also, Nagato isn't in this debate.


----------



## Fang (Apr 5, 2009)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Hm, Vader casually blocked a Force Push from Kento Marek, why should Shinra Tensei be any different.  He force tooled Rahm Kota with ease, and "killed" Galen Marek twice.  Among multiple other feats, he also tooled  seasoned Jedi Masters that would tool Pain.  *Also what's stopping Vader from force choking Nagato, he can choke a person from across the Galaxy, doing so to Nagato would be easy.*



No he hasn't. Are you refering to Shadows of the Empire incident?


----------



## mansher (Apr 6, 2009)

Vader's precognition allows him to deflect anything Pein throws at him. You saw what Vader did in Episode III? His force crush dismantlized metal droids. Force crush GG. Technically Nagato is in this thread becaus w/o him there's no Deva Pein. As we all know Vader force choke someone in the other side of the galaxy. There's nothing in this thread indicates that it is just movie Vader not EU Vader therefore it can be any Vader so Vader rapes pein.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 6, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> You're going to have to clarify how this happens, as all instances of Mind-fuckery I recall don't happen instantly. Pain will blast him before he can get anywhere.


Force Horror can do this rather quickly, in KOTOR II a Sith Lord disabled an Onderonian soldier with ease.  Darth Malak disabled two Jedi Knights in KOTOR I with a similar ability.




> This is almost a non-sequitur. Also, Jedi mind-tricks only work half the time and usually on nameless mooks. Hell, you can be immune to them by being a different species, having something implanted in the brain, or having an extremely high willpower. Using mind-fuckery is grasping at straws when nothing else works.


Since Nagato isn't "in this thread" Deva Pain will easily be tricked.  I don't see why he wouldn't be as weak minded as any other goon, he has no knowledge of the Force.  
Except Pain blasting Vader the instant the fight starts. Faster reflexes won't help, precog won't help and neither will fucking saber throw (how stupid).



> No he hasn't. You're making shit up, Vader has gone down to having two pillars being TK'd into him and being bashed around like a pin-ball by Starkiller in all three versions of TF: U. Quit making shit up.


LOL! He survived all of that and got back up ready to fight within a few seconds.  The guy tanked LIGHTSABER HITS.  Oh and yes he did kill Starkiller twice.



> This is exactly why I said it's whoever gets the first hit early in the debate. Force choke has nothing to do with it, Mind fucking has nothing to do with it, saber fighting as nothing to do with it, having fucking super speed/strength has nothing to do with it. It's whoever's TK comes out on top in the opening match. So far, Pain has shown to have greater TK than Vader. If Pain hits him with the first blast, he is surely going to have enough time to blast him again before Vader recovers.


Doubtful at best, what's his TK going to do, push him back, I doubt it'll do any more damage than any other Force Push.  Also,


> Also, he _doesn't_ know the first move Pain is going to make. Precognition does not work that way. The Force just warns him how he is going to be attacked and he defends himself accordingly.


That's an oxymoron you know.  But yes, just because he knows its coming doesn't mean he can defend it, accept knowing Vader he can. 


> Line of sight. All instances of Force Choke required line of sight. Also, Nagato isn't in this debate.


So a corpse is going to move on his own accord, doubtful
This is irrelevant altogether, as Vader can tank his TK, Tsunade did, some Fodder ANBU did (pointblank might I add).  Vader's bones(at least the ones that move him, cannot be broken, and he can soften any blow with the Force (as Master Farralla did for Master Lsu in Darth Bane: The Rule of Two).  As soon as he has recovered he'll snap Pain's neck, impale him, decapitate him, or kill him in a variety of ways.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 6, 2009)

> I guess that's why everybody removes CIS and PIS from debates.



Just PIS actually.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Apr 6, 2009)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> We seriously need a Vader respect thread so we can actually know as to what the hell he can do besides what we've seen in the movies.



Ahem


----------



## Shock Therapy (Apr 6, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Hmm, I don't see any evidence that he will instantly kill Pain in that post. Come back when you have some.




Hmm, I don't see any evidence that Pain will have even the slightest chance against Vader in any of your posts. Come back when you have some.


----------



## The World (Apr 6, 2009)

rawrawraw said:


> Hmm, I don't see any evidence that Pain will have even the slightest chance against Vader in any of your posts. Come back when you have some.


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 6, 2009)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Force Horror can do this rather quickly, in KOTOR II a Sith Lord disabled an Onderonian soldier with ease.  Darth Malak disabled two Jedi Knights in KOTOR I with a similar ability.


Prove that Darth Vader can do Force Horror.


> Since Nagato isn't "in this thread" Deva Pain will easily be tricked.  I don't see why he wouldn't be as weak minded as any other goon, he has no knowledge of the Force.
> Except Pain blasting Vader the instant the fight starts. Faster reflexes won't help, precog won't help and neither will fucking saber throw (how stupid).


Deva Realm and Nagato are essentially the same person. They both have shown to have extremely high willpower, and one doesn't need to know what the force is to have a high willpower, the chance of Deva being manipulated is minimal.


> LOL! He survived all of that and got back up ready to fight within a few seconds.  The guy tanked LIGHTSABER HITS.  Oh and yes he did kill Starkiller twice.


He killed Starkiller twice? Starkiller  Also notice how Vader 'tanked' that lightsaber attack. Screaming in agony.

*Spoiler*: __ 




[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phqzx7dVWwY[/YOUTUBE]


Oh yes, tanking lightsaber hits. G-Level canon too.

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Endless Mike (Apr 6, 2009)

I have not even read anything in this thread past the first post, but I will now guess how it is going:

Narutards say Pain wins
TWF quotes some obscure EU feats and claims Vader wins
ScreenXSurfer points out that TWF is misrepresenting things
TWF keeps arguing against him
Every once in a while, a random noob comes in and claims either Pain or Vader wins with little to no justification
Several people, notably antitard, dispute the validity of EU feats

Now let's see how I did


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Apr 6, 2009)

You're pretty spot on


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 6, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Prove that Darth Vader can do Force Horror.


Its a variation of the Jedi Mind Trick, Sith Lords just use it in a much more evil way.  


> Deva Realm and Nagato are essentially the same person. They both have shown to have extremely high willpower, and one doesn't need to know what the force is to have a high willpower, the chance of Deva being manipulated is minimal.


Which is why Uchiha Madara can easily manipulate him.  He's pretty weakminded.


> He killed Starkiller twice? Starkiller  Also notice how Vader 'tanked' that lightsaber attack. Screaming in agony.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Apr 6, 2009)

> Which is why Uchiha Madara can easily manipulate him. He's pretty weakminded.


To be fair, there's no indication that Madara is manipulating Pain in the same way he did Sasuke. 

Could be that he is feigning a similar goal with Pain, who is just crazy enough to believe him, and is waiting to betray him at the last second. Weak willpower isn't necessary for someone to be manipulated in this way.


----------



## Endless Mike (Apr 6, 2009)

Some things worth mentioning, though:



ScreenXSurfer said:


> Fuujin's calcs? I'm using Blathiron's calculations. Endless Mike had no qualms with accepting Kyuubi's attack as an energy weapon, and for an energy weapon to do the shown damage to the landscape would have required triple digit petajoules to very low exajoules.



That was before I reread the post and realized that he meant that all of that rock was vaporized, which I now think is very unlikely.



ScreenXSurfer said:


> You're going to have to clarify how this happens, as all instances of Mind-fuckery I recall don't happen instantly. Pain will blast him before he can get anywhere.



Luke instantly mind-fucked a bunch of TIE pilots in the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy.

Of course your response will be "Luke isn't Vader" but just pointing it out.

As for the moorings feat, Starkiller created a chain reaction and just messed up a lot of the systems and structural stability of it, he didn't directly destroy it with raw power. So that is being overexaggerated.



> This is almost a non-sequitur. Also, Jedi mind-tricks only work half the time and usually on nameless mooks. Hell, you can be immune to them by being a different species, having something implanted in the brain, or having an extremely high willpower. Using mind-fuckery is grasping at straws when nothing else works.



I will contest this, because this is one of my pet peeves. This is a common misconception, it only applies to light-side Force suggestions. Qui-Gon could have mindraped Watto and forced him to give him the ship components, but he didn't because that would be a dark side power. The mere fact that he was willing to pay him Republic credits instead of just trying to get it for free proves that he wasn't willing to do anything evil like actually fucking up his mind. In fact in the New Essential Guide to Alien Species it was stated that Vader mindraped individuals of Watto's species.

Having strong willpower or being of certain species can help you against Force suggestion used by Jedi, but Dark Siders will go much further and that can't be blocked with such simple method. Luke stated he didn't like doing it because it was a dark side power.

Also,



			
				ScreenXSurfer said:
			
		

> and anybody would agree with me if they weren't sucking Vader-cock.



I thought it burned off


----------



## ScreenXSurfer (Apr 7, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> I have not even read anything in this thread past the first post, but I will now guess how it is going:
> 
> Narutards say Pain wins


Pretty much just me with a few others that provide some support every now and then.


> TWF quotes some obscure EU feats and claims Vader wins
> ScreenXSurfer points out that TWF is misrepresenting things
> TWF keeps arguing against him


Probably the highlight of the thread. After that debate it deteriorated greatly.


> Every once in a while, a random noob comes in and claims either Pain or Vader wins with little to no justification


Then ScreenXSurfer pulls a Cartmen and flips out at these people


> Several people, notably antitard, dispute the validity of EU feats


He has yet to make an appearance.


> Now let's see how I did


Pretty well.


Thanks for pointing out those things, I wish you were here earlier in the thread. 


And I'm finished with this thread. I'm not going to respond to an argument I had several times already in this thread, sometimes on the same page. If people want to believe Vader does an instant-gib, well I can't force people to relinquish their illusions.


----------



## C. Hook (Apr 7, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> He has yet to make an appearance.



Oh my God, you can't be serious; he just loves jabbing from the sidelines in these big threads.


----------



## Quelsatron (Apr 7, 2009)

C. Hook said:


> Oh my God, you can't be serious; he just loves jabbing from the sidelines in these big threads.



This thread doesn't contain enough One Piece for antitard to grace us with his precense


----------



## C-Moon (Apr 7, 2009)

Tier 1 garbage said:


> People who make star wars threads should be banned. Star wars is illogical, plot hole ridden piece of never ending shit and anyone who wants to argue the sheer stupidity of EU wank fest should go to a star wars forum.



You sound like the Killstrike of the anti Star Wars community. CBR would love you.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Apr 7, 2009)

Onomatopoeia said:


> To be fair, there's no indication that Madara is manipulating Pain in the same way he did Sasuke.
> 
> Could be that he is feigning a similar goal with Pain, who is just crazy enough to believe him, and is waiting to betray him at the last second. Weak willpower isn't necessary for someone to be manipulated in this way.




Frankly I see Madara and Pain having kind of a Megatron/Starscream king of working relationship, so when Madara stubs his toe...


----------



## EvilMoogle (Apr 7, 2009)

Guys, more than enough meta-commentary on the thread.

If the debate is done, just let it die.  If you've still got points to argue by all means argue them.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 7, 2009)

ScreenXSurfer said:


> Pain can't be Mind Raped by Vader, and the neck snap takes several seconds to finish. By which time Pain will have blasted him across the landscape.  Pain has no defense against the Force, I never advocated he did.



Neck Snap takes a second to do when Vader puts some effort into it.  As shown when he closed his hand after Kento Marek screams "RUN" in the video I provided, why can he not do the same thing to Pain.


----------



## The World (Apr 7, 2009)

I guess you don't understand the concept of they both have instant attacks.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 7, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> I guess you don't understand the concept of they both have instant attacks.



How is Shinra Tensei instant, it takes at least the amount of time to say Shinra Tensei, it takes some time to focus.  Neck Snap is instantaneous.


----------



## The World (Apr 7, 2009)

Did you even bother reading the other posts for the scans i and others have posted? Or do you even read Naruto? He doesn't need time to focus or say Shinra Tensei, he justs does it. Stop bringing up ignorant claims.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 7, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> Did you even bother reading the other posts for the scans i and others have posted? Or do you even read Naruto? He doesn't need time to focus or say Shinra Tensei, he justs does it.



I do, any Shinra Tensei powerful enough to harm Vader requires concentration, those small ones against Kakashi would result in him being impaled.


----------



## The World (Apr 7, 2009)

Proof that he needs concentration? He did it instantly to the 3 boss toads.


----------



## Lord Stark (Apr 7, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> Proof that he needs concentration? He did it instantly to the 3 boss toads.



No he jumped into the air brought his arms in, and said Shinra Tensei.  I'd put that at anywhere from 1-2 seconds minimum.


----------



## The World (Apr 7, 2009)

Oh wow he brought his arms up, oh wow that only takes a second. Pretty much instant, and Vader usually does the same when he Force chokes. And he only thinks Shinra Tensei not speaks it verbally

Also Pain used Shinra Tensei 4-5 times without moving or saying anything at all, so even if he gets force choked he can blast his omnidirectional shinra tensei and blast Vader away.


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## Lord Stark (Apr 7, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> Oh wow he brought his arms up, oh wow that only takes a second. Pretty much instant, and Vader usually does the same when he Force chokes. And he only thinks Shinra Tensei not speaks it verbally
> 
> Also Pain used Shinra Tensei 4-5 times without moving or saying anything at all, so even if he gets force choked he can blast his omnidirectional shinra tensei and blast Vader away.



He gets off one tops, then gets lifted in the air and neck snapped.  Rahm effing Kota, the man who deflects lightning with his bare hands _laughing_, and ripped a Space Station a new one, was instantly tooled by Vader, he didn't have any time to get off a TK, why is Pain different.


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## The World (Apr 7, 2009)

Or if he's bloodlusted he does a super Shinra Tensei and ends Vader instantly.


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## Abigail (Apr 8, 2009)

Roxxas said:


> Or if he's bloodlusted he does a super Shinra Tensei and ends Vader instantly.



Chou Shinra Tensei is not instant.


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## The World (Apr 8, 2009)

I didn't say Chou i meant supaaa  Like the one he used against the 3 boss toads. Even though Chou = super, hyper, ultra i meant his amped up one.


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## Wuzzman (Apr 9, 2009)

You know the fact that this thread went on for 8 pages is sad and pretty much proves what I said back in page 3.


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