# Sanji vs Yamato



## Silver (Jun 2, 2022)

lets get this started  

Current Sanji vs Current Yamato

Conditions: Both characters serious, assume Sanji can hit Yamato

Reactions: Like 2


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## The crazy hacker (Jun 2, 2022)

Yamato very high diff. She is still YC1+ level.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Grinningfox (Jun 2, 2022)

Yamato in a high diff 

Having Adv Conquerors should matter

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## God Movement (Jun 2, 2022)

Going unpopular here. Sanji extreme.

Reactions: Like 11 | Agree 4


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## lightcrowler (Jun 2, 2022)

Yamato high diff.
She ‘kept up’ against hybrid Kaido, has a mythical zoan, which on itself comes with a plethora of abilities, and above all advanced CoC. She’s pretty staked goddamn.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jun 2, 2022)

Yamato high diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## Luffyfan38 (Jun 2, 2022)

Oh look at the polls votes, how shocking.

Why is Sanji so down played here?

Reactions: Like 1


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## YellowCosmos (Jun 2, 2022)

Even if Sanji could hit Yamato, he'd still be too distracted to fight properly.

Reactions: Funny 4 | Informative 2


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## Van Basten (Jun 2, 2022)

Sanji very high diff.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Karma (Jun 2, 2022)

Sanji high dif

Reactions: Like 2


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Jun 2, 2022)

Sanji will be stronger in the next arc, but feat wise it's really hard to argue against Yamato.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JustSumGuy (Jun 2, 2022)

If she joins she’s weaker than Sanji.

Which means Kaido was stalemating with a YC3

Reactions: Funny 14


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## Draffut (Jun 2, 2022)

Yamato wins low diff.

Toss zoro in with sanji and they can win extreme diff.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Jun 2, 2022)

JustSumGuy said:


> If she joins she’s weaker than Sanji.
> 
> Which means Kaido was stalemating with a YC3


SH's YC3 will be at least admiral level by EOS.

Reactions: Like 2


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## BossofBosses (Jun 2, 2022)

I am a proud Sanjibro and Yamabro. This is true extreme diff fight for either of them.

Reactions: Like 2 | Friendly 1 | Neutral 1


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## luffy no haki (Jun 2, 2022)

Yamato wins high diff.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 2, 2022)

Sanji like with every single new member.




She did well against daddy.
Her feats are overwanked tough. 
Haven't seen her do shit that any strong commander level character could not match.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Neutral 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Nello (Jun 2, 2022)

Robin was stronger than Sanji up until the second she joined SHP

M3 is forever

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2 | GODA 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 2, 2022)

Her strength is completely up in the air when compared to the non Luffys of the m3

Reactions: Like 1


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## FitzChivalry (Jun 2, 2022)

Luffyfan38 said:


> Oh look at the polls votes, how shocking.
> 
> Why is Sanji so down played here?


Is this you being sarcastic or are you genuinely asking?

Reactions: Like 1


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## zoro (Jun 2, 2022)

Featwise she definitely wins but Oda cares about SanjixZoro too much so the next time we see the crew fight he's gonna be above her somehow. The gap probably isn't that big to begin with even if it looks that way

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Luffyfan38 (Jun 2, 2022)

FitzChivalry said:


> Is this you being sarcastic or are you genuinely asking?


This is me being sarcastic


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## Bash24 (Jun 2, 2022)

Mythical fruit + CoC > scientific enhancement

As of right now Yamato is stronger.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Etherborn (Jun 2, 2022)

Sanji dies of a nosebleed, Yamato low diff.

With CIS off completely, Yamato mid-high diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Baroxio (Jun 2, 2022)

Featwise, Yamato is more impressive than either Zoro or Sanji, tbh.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## ClannadFan (Jun 2, 2022)

Yamato extreme diff. It's really close imo. Both of them are basically King level. I'll give Yamato the slight edge for now just because Sanji's still getting used to his new body.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Venom (Jun 2, 2022)

Assuming that Yamato actually joins: End of next arc Sanji>Yamato.  Currently Yamato>Sanji. 

If Yamato doesn't join then Yamato>Sanji until proven otherwise.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Canute87 (Jun 2, 2022)

Silver said:


> lets get this started
> 
> Current Sanji vs Current Yamato
> 
> Conditions: Both characters serious, assume Sanji can hit Yamato


ifrit jamble should be hotter than what she can spit out

Reactions: Like 1


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## YMICrazy (Jun 2, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> Featwise, Yamato is more impressive than either Zoro or Sanji, tbh.


You are right but she's still a girl. And now she's a girl on the SH's crew at that.


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## Conxc (Jun 2, 2022)

Yamato high (mid) diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sieves (Jun 2, 2022)

If she joins truly it’s Sanji who will be stronger. If she doesn’t join it will remain Yamato.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## *uzumaki-naruto* (Jun 2, 2022)

Sanji can't fight woman though.......so it will always be Yamato>Sanji hahahaha


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## Kishido (Jun 2, 2022)

Yamato high did


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## Amol (Jun 2, 2022)

Yamato wins with high diff.

From the alliance I only see Luffy, Law and Kid (maybe) being stronger than her.

Rest are losing.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Kroczilla (Jun 2, 2022)

This has to have been done like a thousand times already. Yamato is currently stronger. End of discussion.

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 1


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jun 2, 2022)

Yamato fought with Hybrid Kaido, she takes it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Bohemian Knight (Jun 2, 2022)

Sanji leveled-up heavy against Queen by the end of the fight. He was not the same guy that was struggling once he came to grips with his Vinsmoke abilities. He absolutely punished a YC2. Don’t sleep on him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## *uzumaki-naruto* (Jun 2, 2022)

Amol said:


> Yamato wins with high diff.
> 
> From the alliance I only see Luffy, Law and Kid (maybe) being stronger than her.
> 
> Rest are losing.


Kidd? hahaha


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jun 2, 2022)

Yamato beats his ass - Mid Diff

Yamato has ice shields strong enough to almost completely negate a hybrid Thunder Bagua from Kaido and ice breath on par with boro breath. Can Sanji even match this damage output?


How is Sanji doing shit to Yamato?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 7


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jun 3, 2022)

I have Zoro = Yamato now , so Yamato wins high diff . 
Need to see Yamato as her limit next arc to determine where she will stand çause I don't see anyone stand between Zoro & Sanji after they join the SH

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 3, 2022)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Yamato has ice shields strong enough to almost completely negate a hybrid Thunder Bagua from Kaido



When i said that Yamato's feats were being overwanked.......






Yamato wasn't anywhere near Kaido, which was later on made perfectly clear when we saw what Kaido and Luffy were able to do going all out, and the madness that unfolded.
Gear 4 Luffy with advanced CoC was superior to her, let alone God Nika..... and we know how Kaido fared against Godfy, extreme diff.
It's only natural since we also learned that neither Kid nor Law could handle Big Mom 1 vs 1.
A fact Yamato was perfectly aware of:






Unpopular opinion. Still true tough.
This match up's outcome is not as obvious as many describe.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 3


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 3, 2022)

Yamato is like Zoro/Kidd/Law level. 
Meaning Sanji eats dirt.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Ren. (Jun 3, 2022)

Silver said:


> lets get this started
> 
> Current Sanji vs Current Yamato
> 
> Conditions: Both characters serious, assume Sanji can hit Yamato


Yamato neg diff. 

Her boobs alone neg diff him.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Cyas (Jun 3, 2022)

Yamato wins for now but Sanji should surpass her at some point in the near future.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## bil02 (Jun 3, 2022)

Yamato's feats are sustaining a beating from Kaido and doing zero damage in return..

Hardly mindblowing feats,she got an ice mirror defense which increases her durability and enables her to take a fraction of Raimei Hakke's Ap,something Base Luffy could take too back in chapter 1001.

Yamato isn't particularly fast nor does she hit particularly hard,Sanji may actually extreme diff her at this point.

Zoro>Sanji>=Yamato.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 2 | Dislike 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 3, 2022)

Ren. said:


> Yamato neg diff.
> 
> Her boobs alone neg diff him.



Sometimes losing is winning.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Corax (Jun 3, 2022)

Next arc Sanji extreme diff I think. Current arc Yamato very high/extreme diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## convict (Jun 3, 2022)

I wouldn't be surprised if Sanji is stronger but I have to give it to Yamato for now.

But it is close. I see 0 reason to put her above Marco, Kid, King, and Law who are all solid YC1s let alone Zoro who is top tier. If Kaido was any one of their dad they would have all put in a better fight than she did while clearly getting trained by him.

Sanji will surpass her next arc. Advanced CoC is ultimately what makes me put her above Sanji more than anything.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 8


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## Ren. (Jun 3, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Sometimes losing is winning.


Also feat  wise she is stronger.



convict said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Sanji is stronger but I have to give it to Yamato for now.
> 
> But it is close. I see 0 reason to put her above Marco, Kid, King, and Law who are all solid YC1s let alone Zoro who is top tier. If Kaido was any one of their dad they would have all put in a better fight than she did while clearly getting trained by him.
> 
> Sanji will surpass her next arc. Advanced CoC is ultimately what makes me put her above Sanji more than anything.


Zoro is not a top tier.

He gets high difed by all the weakest top tiers.

While luffy a solid mid top tier mid diffs him.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## bil02 (Jun 3, 2022)

28 years and she is only this strong? Weevil is my last hope for a top tier Emperor's offspring.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 2


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## Kroczilla (Jun 3, 2022)

bil02 said:


> 28 years and she is only this strong? Weevil is my last hope for a top tier Emperor's offspring.


Even among the current Yonko, none of them hit their prime until their late 30s, 40s in Kaido's case. By any measure, Luffy's (and the SH generally) growth has been the exception rather than the norm for top tiers.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Ushiromiya Battler (Jun 3, 2022)

Yamato high or extreme diffs.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ruse (Jun 3, 2022)

Sanji high extreme diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Jun 3, 2022)

bil02 said:


> 28 years and she is only this strong? Weevil is my last hope for a top tier Emperor's offspring.


She’s had Kairoseki cuffs on since she was 8. She’s got a lot of DF gains to catch-up on.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## CaptainCommanderRenji (Jun 3, 2022)

Queen fight Sanji loses without a doubt. Against current fresh awakened Sanji could go either way, but most likely still Yamato. By the end of the next arc Sanji wins for sure.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Jun 3, 2022)

She’s stronger till she joins officially… minus 100 bonus points for not being apart of the original M3.

Reactions: Like 1


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## o0Shinthi0o (Jun 3, 2022)

convict said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Sanji is stronger but I have to give it to Yamato for now.
> 
> But it is close. I see 0 reason to put her above *Marco, Kid, King, and Law who are all solid YC1s let alone Zoro who is top tier*. If Kaido was any one of their dad they would have all put in a better fight than she did while clearly getting trained by him.
> 
> Sanji will surpass her next arc. Advanced CoC is ultimately what makes me put her above Sanji more than anything.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 6


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 3, 2022)

convict said:


> let alone Zoro who is top tier.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4


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## lightcrowler (Jun 3, 2022)

bil02 said:


> 28 years and she is only this strong? Weevil is my last hope for a top tier Emperor's offspring.


You have to consider that Yamato was a enclosed person, living her whole life only in one island, that person is a fighter at heart and has an adventurous soul.

Her growth was severly hindered because Kaido kept her in a ‘cage’ like a rat. If Oda should be consistent, that i hope he is, Yamato will only now reach her true potential when sailing with Luffy. 

If she’s already this strong just imagine how much more she will grow when seeing other Pirates or Marines, Animals, islands etc.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3


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## Ren. (Jun 3, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


>


I know Kek.



lightcrowler said:


> You have to consider that Yamato was a enclosed person, living her whole life only in one island, that person is a fighter at heart and has an adventurous soul.
> 
> Her growth was severly hindered because Kaido kept her in a ‘cage’ like a rat. If Oda should be consistent, that i hope he is, Yamato will only now reach her true potential when sailing with Luffy.
> 
> If she’s already this strong just imagine how much more she will grow when seeing other Pirates or Marines, Animals, islands etc.


If Oda wants, he could give her BM power level.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 3, 2022)

Ren. said:


> I know Kek.


Do you like it

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Ren. (Jun 3, 2022)

Code said:


> Do you like it

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mariko (Jun 3, 2022)



Reactions: Like 11


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 3, 2022)

Mariko said:


>


weaker than Sanji

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Mariko (Jun 3, 2022)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> weaker than Sanji



SKY

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## lightcrowler (Jun 3, 2022)

Ren. said:


> If Oda wants, he could give her BM power level.


He should.
If she joins, she very likely gonna fight against a Admiral, and for that she needs to grow stronger.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Jun 3, 2022)

lightcrowler said:


> He should.
> If she joins, she very likely gonna fight against a Admiral, and for that she needs to grow stronger.


I want that but it is up to Oda.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 3, 2022)

something something wings


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## Mariko (Jun 3, 2022)

lightcrowler said:


> He should.
> If she joins, she very likely gonna fight against a Admiral, and for that she needs to grow stronger.



Luffy kills Akainu for Ace's death
Sabo kills Akainu for Ace's death
Yamato kills Akainu for Ace's death

Reactions: Funny 1


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## lightcrowler (Jun 3, 2022)

Mariko said:


> Luffy kills Akainu for Ace's death
> Sabo kills Akainu for Ace's death
> Yamato kills Akainu for Ace's death


And for Aokiji.
Yamato needs to take revenge on Akainu for beating a Ice power user.
Yamato gonna make a Ice sculpture of Akainu

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Seraphoenix (Jun 3, 2022)

It's debateable if Zoro wins, let alone Sanji.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 5 | Optimistic 1


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## Gledania (Jun 3, 2022)

Sanji takes it extrem diff.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## bil02 (Jun 3, 2022)

Conxc said:


> She’s had Kairoseki cuffs on since she was 8. She’s got a lot of DF gains to catch-up on.


Well she got rid of them and showed no mindblowing power.

Kairoseki cuffs are like training tools,her wearing them for 20+ years is like her unwillingly training for that amount of time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## T.D.A (Jun 3, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> When i said that Yamato's feats were being overwanked.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I remember when people said Kaido wasn’t holding back vs Yamato but he clearly was after what we saw when he fought Luffy later on.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Conxc (Jun 3, 2022)

bil02 said:


> Well she got rid of them and showed no mindblowing power.
> 
> Kairoseki cuffs are like training tools,her wearing them for 20+ years is like her unwillingly training for that amount of time.


That’s not how that works. She has had them on for 20 years which means she wasn’t able to use her ability for 20 years, which means she hasn’t been able to train her DF ability and truly incorporate it into her fighting style as someone with 20 years of DF experience would with their fruit.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Karma (Jun 3, 2022)

Cant wait to bump this poll wen Sanji fights Beckmann or Lucky while Yamato is struggling with one of the guys with a weird name

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 3, 2022)

T.D.A said:


> I remember when people said Kaido wasn’t holding back vs Yamato but he clearly was after what we saw when he fought Luffy later on.



She did fight her daddy tough.


Not dismissing her feats....

I've also seen Marco , Vista or Joz fight against top tiers in this serie. Stall them, hurt them.... and being ruthlessly put down after the first opening.
Ao Kiji was not messing around unfortunately. He wasn't that kind of "Daddy".


Again overwanked, a  "YC2" has displayed comparable feats.
I doubt many would rank Joz above King despite that.



"Feats" something we don't really care that much  about i've realized.....
That's the funny part, the inconsistencies when it comes to the criterias used. Kid has some of the better feats on Onigashima yet ......
You'll see some of the same readers with very different stances on the matter in different threads.







Most give the nod to Yamato, high diff, which means most think it's close. We're making progress  

Once again,  everyone will ultimately see the light when Oda inevitably stick to the same formula, like the past two decades (yes that's the best argument).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jun 3, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> When i said that Yamato's feats were being overwanked.......


Almost completely. It took some time for Yamato to even realize she was hit. Sanji's not throwing Thunder Bagua kicks anyway and you don't need to be close to Kaido to beat his ass.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Chaos Hokage (Jun 3, 2022)

Yamato would win against Sanji easily since we know he would never hit any women. But if he wasn't a chivalrous bastard, Sanji would be mid difficult for Yamato to fight against but she'll still be the winner due to her COC Haki.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jun 3, 2022)

Based on what we saw Sanji can body Queen and the issue was really adjusting to his new body upgrades. I don’t quite see Yamato bodying Queen that bad; as she was only matching and loosing to Kaidou not going even as hard as he did against G2/3 Luffy by his own admission. So based on what was shown I think Sanji high/extreme diff. But if Yamato really becomes like Oden of the straw hats and this parallels the Roger Pirates then Yamato will end up >= Zoro, like Oden was with Raleigh.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## T.D.A (Jun 3, 2022)

Karma said:


> Cant wait to bump this poll wen Sanji fights Beckmann or Lucky while Yamato is struggling with one of the guys with a weird name



If Jinbei got matched up with a Tobi Roppo instead of a Yonko Commander then yeah very plausible Yamato has a similar fate.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eustathios (Jun 3, 2022)

Narrative and plot > fanmade tier lists

M3 will always be a thing. Wannabe Oden won't change that.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## Virus (Jun 3, 2022)

Silver said:


> lets get this started
> 
> Current Sanji vs Current Yamato
> 
> Conditions: Both characters serious, assume Sanji can hit Yamato


Oh sanji can hit yamato?

yes Sanjo takes this high diff


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## Etherborn (Jun 3, 2022)

Venom said:


> Assuming that Yamato actually joins: End of next arc Sanji>Yamato.  Currently Yamato>Sanji.
> 
> If Yamato doesn't join then Yamato>Sanji until proven otherwise.



Robin was stronger than Sanji until Water 7…arguably stronger than Zoro until Skypiea. 

Jinbe was stronger than both Zoro and Sanji as of WCI, and that was when he joined the crew even if he wasn’t sailing with them yet.

M3 will always reassert itself soon enough, but this isn’t the first time it’s been temporarily disrupted. Yamato is stronger and will remain stronger until Sanji surpasses her in an arc or two.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## MrPopo (Jun 3, 2022)

Etherborn said:


> Robin was stronger than Sanji until Water 7…arguably stronger than Zoro until Skypiea.
> 
> Jinbe was stronger than both Zoro and Sanji as of WCI, and that was when he joined the crew even if he wasn’t sailing with them yet.
> 
> M3 will always reassert itself soon enough, but this isn’t the first time it’s been temporarily disrupted. Yamato is stronger and will remain stronger until Sanji surpasses her in an arc or two.


Jinbe only officially joined the crew in wano that's why him getting asked to join the crew in wci was delayed 


For Robin it's unknown how she ranks with regards to Sanji and Zoro. In Alabasta she defeated Pell but was stomped by croc and in Skypedia she fought Yama not even a priest


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## Eustathios (Jun 3, 2022)

We're an arc or two away from the final war. There's realistically little chance that the M3 reasserts itself in the meantime. People also claim Yamato has insane potential because she's Kaido's daughter, so you really can't have both.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## trance (Jun 3, 2022)

yamato high diff


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## Etherborn (Jun 3, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Jinbe only officially joined the crew in wano that's why him getting asked to join the crew in wci was delayed
> 
> 
> For Robin it's unknown how she ranks with regards to Sanji and Zoro. In Alabasta she defeated Pell but was stomped by croc and in Skypedia she fought Yama not even a priest



Yama from a feats standpoint was superior to Gedatsu as far as I’m concerned. He was inferior to Satori for sure, but Sanji also didn’t solo that dude, so bit of a moot point.

Zoro definitely surpassed Robin in Skypiea, he defeated the strongest of the priests. But Sanji didn’t really show anything that put him above her until fighting Blueno briefly on the sea train.

Regarding Jinbe, Luffy straight up said “I’m your captain” in WCI. Jinbe’s statement to Big Mom makes it plain as day that the sentiment was mutual. He was already a Straw Hat for all intents and purposes, so the distinction is meaningless.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 3, 2022)

Sanji after he heals > Yamato.

but then that would mean Sanji > Law/Kid. Oh well

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Jun 3, 2022)

Anyone know the last time the term “Monster trio” was used in the manga?  Seriously asking


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## Kishido (Jun 3, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Anyone know the last time the term “Monster trio” was used in the manga?  Seriously asking



Not in the manga but last year in the worldwide character poll results comments LAST year 

But hey wings is just introduced now to be forgotten now.

Oh wait I forgot... Wings is a Robin only thing... And even if the comment of the editors is wrong because Steven... It doesn't mean... It just means trust in reliability...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mylesime (Jun 3, 2022)

Kishido said:


> Not in the manga but last year in the worldwide character poll results comments LAST year
> 
> But hey wings is just introduced now to be forgotten now.
> 
> Oh wait I forgot... Wings is a Robin only thing... And even if the comment of the editors is wrong because Steven... It doesn't mean... It just means trust in reliability...



This thread will age like milk.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 3, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Anyone know the last time the term “Monster trio” was used in the manga?  Seriously asking


In the raid


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## Conxc (Jun 3, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> In the raid


Panel?


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## MrPopo (Jun 3, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Panel?


The wings of the pirate king and the stars of the raid. Also in the popularity poll


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## Conxc (Jun 3, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> The wings of the pirate king and the stars of the raid. Also in the popularity poll


Are two completely different statements. Stars of the raid is probably the worst of the two. So M3, when’s the last time?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Empathy (Jun 3, 2022)

No real reason why Yamato shouldn’t win. His feats are just better. Luffy’s crew mirrors Roger’s in a way, and when Oden joined late he was stronger than Scopper.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Skaddix (Jun 3, 2022)

Empathy said:


> No real reason why Yamato shouldn’t win. His feats are just better. Luffy’s crew mirrors Roger’s in a way, and when Oden joined late he was stronger than Scopper.



Let the Sanji Bros Cope and Cry with Carrot Simps.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Empathy (Jun 3, 2022)

Skaddix said:


> Let the Sanji Bros Cope and Cry with Carrot Simps.



Prehistoric OP fans whined about the Gold-Silver-Copper dynamic being ruined when Oden joined, too, I bet.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## MrPopo (Jun 3, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Are two completely different statements. Stars of the raid is probably the worst of the two. So M3, when’s the last time?


Sanji still grouped with Zoro being the #2 an #3 so still relevant only difference there isn't Luffy but that doesn't matter with regards to Sanji being #3. All you're implying is that Luffy is on a different level

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Ruse (Jun 3, 2022)

Oda literally doubled down on Zoro and Sanji as Luffy’s strongest crew members  through the wings/main stars statements yet for some reason Yamato will change up the dynamic after 1000+ chapters?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Jun 3, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Sanji still grouped with Zoro being the #2 an #3 so still relevant only difference there isn't Luffy but that doesn't matter with regards to Sanji being #3. All you're implying is that Luffy is on a different level


For one neither of those other statements has to correlate to strength. 2. I simply asked when’s the last time the M3 term was used in canon. Surely you can provide a time or two since for some odd reason it’s treated as a narrative staple that will never change? Right?


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## MrPopo (Jun 3, 2022)

Conxc said:


> For one neither of those other statements has to correlate to strength. 2. I simply asked when’s the last time the M3 term was used in canon. Surely you can provide a time or two since for some odd reason it’s treated as a narrative staple that will never change? Right?


The stars of the live floor and being the wing of a pirate king has nothing to do with strength ?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Siskebabas (Jun 3, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Based on what we saw Sanji can body Queen and the issue was really adjusting to his new body upgrades. I don’t quite see Yamato bodying Queen that bad; as she was only matching and loosing to Kaidou not going even as hard as he did against G2/3 Luffy by his own admission. So based on what was shown I think Sanji high/extreme diff. But if Yamato really becomes like Oden of the straw hats and this parallels the Roger Pirates then Yamato will end up >= Zoro, like Oden was with Raleigh.


Lol, hybrid kaido would body Queen immediately so would Yamato. Luffy post udon luffy with fs was barely dodging thubder bagua from base kaido, Queen would get rolled


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## shintebukuro (Jun 3, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Anyone know the last time the term “Monster trio” was used in the manga?  Seriously asking



Previously, the Japanese wording "kaibutsu sanningumi" was used in the manga canon.

"Monster Three," written in Katakana, was coined in 2021's global popularity poll.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 3, 2022)

Sanji is only a wing because of his cooking  


Zoro's spot as the #2 can't change but Sanji's can because

Reactions: Like 3


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## Conxc (Jun 3, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> The stars of the live floor and being the wing of a pirate king has nothing to do with strength ?


Not in the sense that you want to think, no. You’re using this to claim that despite her superior feats, hype, and portrayal, Yamato is weaker because lolwings, lolstars, and lol m3. Show me the m3 scans please. Since it’s a narrative staple that will never change. A couple times it’s been used will suffice, or an explicit statement.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## stealthblack (Jun 3, 2022)

Ifrit jambe burns hotter then lava and any kaidou, so sanji high diffs


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## Conxc (Jun 3, 2022)

shintebukuro said:


> Previously, the Japanese wording "kaibutsu sanningumi" was used in the manga canon.
> 
> "Monster Three," written in Katakana, was coined in 2021's global popularity poll.


Where, and what context, because Luffy, Zoro, Nami topped that poll in that order. And who’s directly responsible for the polls?


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## Conxc (Jun 3, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Sanji is only a wing because of his cooking
> 
> 
> Zoro's spot as the #2 can't change but Sanji's can because


Your right hand man is your right hand man. The rest don’t matter as much. Look at Kaido. 2 flashbacks with King, 0 with Queen. No direct interaction between the two. Explicitly calling King his right hand. I have yet to see the “left hand man” color spread tbh


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## MrPopo (Jun 3, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Not in the sense that you want to think, no. You’re using this to claim that despite her superior feats, hype, and portrayal, Yamato is weaker because lolwings, lolstars, and lol m3. Show me the m3 scans please. Since it’s a narrative staple that will never change. A couple times it’s been used will suffice, or an explicit statement.


Firstly the m3 is cannon please reffer to @Kishido signature I'm going to show a of it  screenshot to help you 



Secondly why do you think Sanji is a wing please tell me is it because of his cooking now? If so then why isn't other crew members such as Nami why play just as important role not regarded as a wing shes the main heroine of the story.

Thirldy the stars and wings protray Sanji as Luffys left hand man the hypocrisy is laughable in that Zoro's spot shouldn't change but Sanji's will even tho this arc establishes Sanji role. Furthermore the lol wings and lol stars  are positions Sanji shares with Zoro but hey guess that doesn't matter because Luffy isn't there 

Lastly it's because sense Sanji's name literally means 3 the m3 has been a dymanic sense Arlong park and has never changed. There has been multiple times where it could such as with Robin,Franky and Jinbe and guess what it never changed. Stop being a power level andy and understand a simple concept that is made for children if Yamato joins she'll be weaker than Sanji.

Reactions: Like 1


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## shintebukuro (Jun 3, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Most give the nod to Yamato, high diff, which means most think it's close. We're making progress



Of course it's close. Everybody agrees on that. Look at the poll numbers.

But that's also the _problem_. Sanji should be a TIER above the next person, because he needs to justify being a "kaibutsu" ("Monster") whereas the next person in line can't qualify for that level.

Otherwise, Oda needs to formally change it to the "kaibutsu yoningumi" ("Monster Four"). And clearly Yamato qualifies as a monster.


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## MrPopo (Jun 3, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Your right hand man is your right hand man. The rest don’t matter as much. Look at Kaido. 2 flashbacks with King, 0 with Queen. No direct interaction between the two. Explicitly calling King his right hand. I have yet to see the “left hand man” color spread tbh


Take it up with Oda Zoro and Sanji are the wings

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 3


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## MrPopo (Jun 3, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Take it up with Oda Zoro and Sanji are the wings


Master full by Oda he introduces the wings only for yamato to come and change because the tier list dedicates it so

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Conxc (Jun 3, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Firstly the m3 is cannon please reffer to @Kishido signature I'm going to show a of it  screenshot to help you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So I checked the official viz for 606, the one with Caribou, and he said “those three strong fools…” not monster trio, which would be odd for him to call them in the first place. I can finish your job and look up the other two scans as well if you can provide me with the chapter(s). The simple fact that you can’t just look these chapters up and provide the evidence of them being used in the manga is telling. All I’ve read from what you posted was “trust me bro, M3 is real and never changing” along with what appears to be a mistranslation. Unless you’re now gonna argue that the viz is the mistranslation here conveniently?


MrPopo said:


> Take it up with Oda Zoro and Sanji are the wings


2 crucial people doesn’t mean all of what you say it does. You want this statement to cover Sanji in regards to how close he is to Zoro, as well as just being stronger by default than characters that may join who have explicitly been shown to be stronger than him. All of that from this wings statement, which mean two important people. That’s what we call reaching.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## shintebukuro (Jun 3, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Where, and what context, because Luffy, Zoro, Nami topped that poll in that order. And who’s directly responsible for the polls?



The context was the editors expressing exclamation at the fact that Nami had reached number 3 in the poll, narrowly stopping the "Monster 3" from occupying the first 3 spots on the list.

And the poll was conducted by Shueisha (who publish WSJ). Oda certainly didn't write "Monster 3" himself, which is a fair reason to doubt its canonicity, but at the very least we know it's an understood term used by the editors.



> So I checked the official viz for 606, the one with Caribou, and he said “those three strong fools…” not monster trio, which would be odd for him to call them in the first place. I can finish your job and look up the other two scans as well if you can provide me with the chapter(s). The simple fact that you can’t just look these chapters up and provide the evidence of them being used in the manga is telling. All I’ve read from what you posted was “trust me bro, M3 is real and never changing” along with what appears to be a mistranslation. Unless you’re now gonna argue that the viz is the mistranslation here conveniently?



It's not a mistranslation, it's a liberty taken with the translation.

Both Nami and Caribou say the words "Kaibutsu Sanningumi." Look up both those words if you must. And compare them to the images in Kishido's signature.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 3, 2022)

Conxc said:


> So I checked the official viz for 606, the one with Caribou, and he said “those three strong fools…” not monster trio, which would be odd for him to call them in the first place. I can finish your job and look up the other two scans as well if you can provide me with the chapter(s). The simple fact that you can’t just look these chapters up and provide the evidence of them being used in the manga is telling. All I’ve read from what you posted was “trust me bro, M3 is real and never changing” along with what appears to be a mistranslation. Unless you’re now gonna argue that the viz is the mistranslation here conveniently?


I even go out of my way and give a screenshot to help you out and you still fail. The words use in those panels literally mean m3 it's not a mis translations 


Conxc said:


> 2 crucial people doesn’t mean all of what you say it does. You want this statement to cover Sanji in regards to how close he is to Zoro, as well as just being stronger by default than characters that may join who have explicitly been shown to be stronger than him. All of that from this wings statement, which mean two important people. That’s what we call reaching.


How is Sanji crucial to Luffy than the other crew members, it's because of his strength that statement solidifies himself as the #3 that's the point

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Karma (Jun 3, 2022)

Conxc said:


> So I checked the official viz for 606, the one with Caribou, and he said “those three strong fools…” not monster trio, which would be odd for him to call them in the first place. I can finish your job and look up the other two scans as well if you can provide me with the chapter(s). The simple fact that you can’t just look these chapters up and provide the evidence of them being used in the manga is telling. All I’ve read from what you posted was “trust me bro, M3 is real and never changing” along with what appears to be a mistranslation. Unless you’re now gonna argue that the viz is the mistranslation here conveniently?


This counter arguement is almost comical

I can tag a native japanese speaker here who doesnt read OP if ud like.

Hell give us the 1 to 1 translation of the Kanji with no bias behind the translation


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## shintebukuro (Jun 3, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> I even go out of my way and give a screenshot to help you out and you still fail.





Karma said:


> This counter arguement is almost comical



I would argue sometimes people are just misinformed. No need to be rude.


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## Conxc (Jun 3, 2022)

shintebukuro said:


> The context was the editors expressing exclamation at the fact that Nami had reached number 3 in the poll, narrowly stopping the "Monster 3" from occupying the first 3 spots on the list.
> 
> And the poll was conducted by Shueisha (who publish WSJ). Oda certainly didn't write "Monster 3" himself, which is a fair reason to doubt its canonicity, but at the very least we know it's an understood term used by the editors.


I mean, it’s a well known fan term. Wouldn’t surprise me that it would show up in a popularity poll. Still not written by Oda.


shintebukuro said:


> It's not a mistranslation, it's a liberty taken with the translation.
> 
> Both Nami and Caribou say the words "Kaibutsu Sanningumi." Look up both those words if you must. And compare them to the images in Kishido's signature.





MrPopo said:


> I even go out of my way and give a screenshot to help you out and you still fail. The words use in those panels literally mean m3 it's not a mis translations


Now I’m no native Japanese speaker, but it doesn’t seem to me that Japanese is that straight forward of a language. I’ll readily admit that I’m speaking from ignorance, but there seems to be a lot of different translations despite the same characters being the template. The unofficial translations that come out on Thursdays say something different from the viz drop on Sunday. They there are cases like this in which Japanese speakers are coming out with different translations as well. I trust the viz because when I go and buy this content from wherever, that’s who translated it and that’s *official.* These translations are what is being put on the shelves for our consumption. The fact that Popo can’t provide the official viz for these chapters is telling. Caribou doesn’t say monster trio and it would be extremely odd if he did. 


MrPopo said:


> How is Sanji crucial to Luffy than the other crew members, it's because of his strength that statement solidifies himself as the #3 that's the point


Doesn’t have to mean strength and it certainly doesn’t mean that he’s by default stronger than a new comer. If Kaido himself joined, would you then claim that Sanni
Is stronger because lolm3, lolwings, lolstars?


Karma said:


> This counter arguement is almost comical
> 
> I can tag a native japanese speaker here who doesnt read OP if ud like.
> 
> Hell give us the 1 to 1 translation of the Kanji with no bias behind the translation


You can tag them if you want. Pretty sure it’s gonna be @MShadows. You’re inability to show where it was stated in the translation that is on the shelves, though, is telling.


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## Conxc (Jun 3, 2022)

shintebukuro said:


> I would argue sometimes people are just misinformed. No need to be rude.


It’s just banter with these two. All love.

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## MrPopo (Jun 3, 2022)

shintebukuro said:


> I would argue sometimes people are just misinformed. No need to be rude.


Your right @Conxc I'm sorry for being rude I hope  there's no hard feelings

Reactions: Friendly 3


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## Conxc (Jun 3, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Your right @Conxc I'm sorry for being rude I hope  there's no hard feelings


Of course not bby. All love

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## sanji's left eye (Jun 3, 2022)

The term "monster trio" isn't even all that relevant. What's relevant regarding Zoro/Sanji being considered on par with each other is the mountain of evidence over the past 900 chapters:

1) They get into fights and constantly try to one-up the other (alternating bragging/being insecure about their bounties for instance).

2) They tend to fight characters who are close in strength and have something of a rivalry too (Mr. 2/Mr. 1; Kaku/Jabura; King/Queen).

3) They are consistently billed as Luffy's top 2 guys and are shown attacking in concert often (Davy Back Fight; dealing fatal damage to the Pacifista at the same time; defending Luffy on Fishman Island; Robin calling them Luffy's wings; simultaneously attacking King/Queen and defending each other from attacks from them; simultaneously stepping in to fight at Yasui's execution; etc).

As for the thread, I'm somewhat torn. Feats clearly go in the favor of Yamato right now over any SH not named Luffy, and it's kind of hard to speculate as to how powerful Advanced CoC Zoro/Ifrit Jambe Sanji really are. Could either one spar with a not that serious Hybrid Kaido (I say not that serious because we see how much more power he was waiting to unleash against Base Luffy, then Gear 4, then Gear 5)? Perhaps, but  I don't know if there is enough evidence to be certain. 

However, Zoro and Sanji have consistently been billed as Luffy's right/left hand men for years now. If she joins the crew, I think the dynamic won't change and Zoro/Sanji will still be above her. At least by the next time they all fight,  they will be stronger. But if she doesn't join, then I'll give it to Yamato until I see more. I do think she is joining, so I'll lean Sanji with extreme difficulty. There's something to be said about how quickly and thoroughly he dominated Queen once he got his resolve back.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Jun 3, 2022)

Siskebabas said:


> Lol, hybrid kaido would body Queen immediately so would Yamato. Luffy post udon luffy with fs was barely dodging thubder bagua from base kaido, Queen would get rolled


Yamato didn’t body Ulti. So I think you should calm down.

Kaidou for sure would body Queen but he would also body Yamato if he went all out or even tried a bit harder.


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## MrPopo (Jun 3, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I mean, it’s a well known fan term. Wouldn’t surprise me that it would show up in a popularity poll. Still not written by Oda.
> 
> 
> 
> Now I’m no native Japanese speaker, but it doesn’t seem to me that Japanese is that straight forward of a language. I’ll readily admit that I’m speaking from ignorance, but there seems to be a lot of different translations despite the same characters being the template. The unofficial translations that come out on Thursdays say something different from the viz drop on Sunday. They there are cases like this in which Japanese speakers are coming out with different translations as well. I trust the viz because when I go and buy this content from wherever, that’s who translated it and that’s *official.* These translations are what is being put on the shelves for our consumption. The fact that Popo can’t provide the official viz for these chapters is telling. Caribou doesn’t say monster trio and it would be extremely odd if he did.


Kishidios signature addresses this and the official translation can be be wrong just look at the Zoro according to the official transaction the correct name would be Zolo 


Conxc said:


> Doesn’t have to mean strength and it certainly doesn’t mean that he’s by default stronger than a new comer. If Kaido himself joined, would you then claim that Sanni
> Is stronger because lolm3, lolwings, lolstars?
> 
> You can tag them if you want. Pretty sure it’s gonna be @MShadows. You’re inability to show where it was stated in the translation that is on the shelves, though, is telling.


If someone like Kaido joined the crew then yes he would be weaker thats the manga Oda is writing which is why alliances are a thing it allows characters like Law and Kidd to team up with Luffy without breaking crew dymanics


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## Skaddix (Jun 3, 2022)

I mean being a wing doesn't make you third strongest by default.

Roger had Rayleigh and Gaban still picked up Oden for the last dance.

I am still waiting for any Simpji Bro to make the case that they think Gaban > Oden. 

We are in the endgame now.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Heart Over Blade (Jun 3, 2022)

Can Sanji beat the Scabbards as a team? Doubt it.

Yamato can, based on pushing Kaidou much further than they did and still standing


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jun 3, 2022)

I have

Luffy


Yamato
Law/kidd
Zoro
Sanji

Reactions: Tier Specialist 4


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## icyBankai (Jun 3, 2022)

It's obvious that Yamato negs. Sanji would not only tank ACoC bonks to the head - he would gladly kick himself in the face to be her slave.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ezekjuninor (Jun 3, 2022)

bil02 said:


> 28 years and she is only this strong? Weevil is my last hope for a top tier Emperor's offspring.


You realise Law is 26. Yamato being this strong at 28 while not even exploring the world at all is very impressive


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## T.D.A (Jun 3, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Can Sanji beat the Scabbards as a team? Doubt it.
> 
> Yamato can, based on pushing Kaidou much further than they did and still standing



Sanji's stronger than the strongest scabbard

Reactions: Like 1


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## Siskebabas (Jun 3, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Yamato didn’t body Ulti. So I think you should calm down.
> 
> Kaidou for sure would body Queen but he would also body Yamato if he went all out or even tried a bit harder.


I knew you would say that. He would body yamato if he were to go all out, but point is base kaido alone would body queen and thats were argument fails flat


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## Baroxio (Jun 3, 2022)

Big Mom failed to put down Ulti, so Yamato failing to do the same isn't a demerit for her.


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## A Optimistic (Jun 3, 2022)

Yamato wins with mid difficulty at most, she’s far stronger than Sanji.

This idea that Sanji has to always be the 3rd strongest is headcanon. Sanji was weaker than Robin when she joined and Sanji is weaker than Yamato joins, deal with it.

Yamato matched a Thunder Bagua from hybrid Kaido for crying out loud, that shits on any feat Sanji has displayed.

Of course Sanji will surpass Yamato in the future, but Yamato is stronger now just like Robin was stronger when she joined.



MrPopo said:


> For Robin it's unknown how she ranks with regards to Sanji and Zoro.



no it’s not unknown at all 

we saw robin neg diff Zoro and sanji during little garden, robin was much stronger than the both of them when she joined 

“muh monster trio ” is a meme



Eustathios said:


> We're an arc or two away from the final war. There's realistically little chance that the M3 reasserts itself in the meantime.



what does the remaining arcs left have to do with Yamato having way better feats than sanji?

besides oda had sanji go from being weaker than page one to much stronger than queen in a single arc, he can easily find a way to have sanji surpass Yamato before the final war if he wants to


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## Turrin (Jun 3, 2022)

Siskebabas said:


> I knew you would say that. He would body yamato if he were to go all out, but point is base kaido alone would body queen and thats were argument fails flat


A Kaidou who isn’t going full tilt wouldn’t body anyone. We plainly saw that with the scabbers landing blows on him despite them being weaker then Queen. Let’s also not pretend that Kaidou wasn’t destroying Yamato. All she really did was take hits.

I’m not saying Yamato couldn’t be much stronger then Sanji, I’m just saying Kaidou isn’t a good guide of that because when he is not going full tilt it’s impossible to gauge how close she actually is to him. Especially when her Bagua didn’t even KO Ulti. This is why I said by tangible feats Sanji should be stronger because his are actually measurable, but by potential as the next Oden Yamato could be closer to or even above Zoro


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## LuckyDucky (Jun 3, 2022)

While maybe not the most apt comparison, this discussion reminds me of the "is Beerus stronger than ____?" debates in Dragon Ball Super. Based on what we see on panels and by making logical inferences (or God help us all, calcs), Beerus "should" have been surpassed several times. But narratively, that isn't what the story is trying to portray, so he's still a moving goalpost (whether it's bad writing or not).

So that is to say, based on feats we have seen on panel, Yamato _seems _stronger. However, in the context of the entire manga One Piece, I have my doubts. It would be interesting to see the power dynamic shaken up, though.

I forget who said it, but I like what another poster here said about Yamato and Jinbe playing the role of "making sure enemies don't get any funny ideas" while the vanguard (Luffy, Zoro, Sanji) are separated from the rest of the crew.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Skaddix (Jun 3, 2022)

A Kaido holding back still >>> Queen

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 3, 2022)

_When haters try to shit talk Sanji using Nami  : 

"Sanji is just the third strongest he's not that important"

Whenever the revolutionary idea of a "New M3" makes a return :

" Sanji is just third most important he doesn't need to be third strongest"

The 3 is outright part of Sanji's name. Third of the M3, one of Luffy's Wings and always third strongest of the SH crew  _

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Skaddix (Jun 3, 2022)

@Sir Curlyhat So you think Gaban is stronger than Oden?


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 3, 2022)

Skaddix said:


> @Sir Curlyhat So you think Gaban is stronger than Oden?


_
What about Gaban proves that he is weaker than anyone not named Roger or Rayleigh ?_

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Grinningfox (Jun 3, 2022)

What’s funny is watching all the Zoro bros who are saying Sanji is stronger all seem to have dropped thier Haki wank to push crew dynamics

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cursemark (Jun 3, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> When i said that Yamato's feats were being overwanked.......


This panel is often used to downplay Yamato, but when you look into it it's still very impressive.

The ice shield didn't block Kaido's TB, fine...That means that Yamato took a straight up TB to the head (Which weaker version of knocked G4 Luffy out cold). That's a great durability feat in her favor.


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## Heart Over Blade (Jun 4, 2022)

Scopper and Rayleigh were still the left and right hand men of the PK despite Oden likely being stronger than one of them based on portrayal. Same applies to Yamato who's the Oden of the Strawhats. 



T.D.A said:


> Sanji's stronger than the strongest scabbard


Which is why I said not stronger than them as a team.

Someone who just made it to Katakuri level isn't soloing the scabbards.


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## MrPopo (Jun 4, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> no it’s not unknown at all
> 
> we saw robin neg diff Zoro and sanji during little garden, robin was much stronger than the both of them when she joined
> 
> “muh monster trio ” is a meme


During little garden Robin was part of the crew there's another arc where Sanji and Zoro got stronger. If we look at just w7 franky is stronger than Zoro and Sanji and then El comes and proves that wrong.


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## A Optimistic (Jun 4, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> During little garden Robin was part of the crew there's another arc where Sanji and Zoro got stronger. If we look at just w7 franky is stronger than Zoro and Sanji and then El comes and proves that wrong.



who says franky was stronger in water 7? Nami said the straw hats were nerfed cuz they thought robin left them 

they also got massive power ups during EL. What massive power up did sanji get during alabasta? Was her nerfed during little garden?


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## MrPopo (Jun 4, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> who says franky was stronger in water 7? Nami said the straw hats were nerfed cuz they thought robin left them
> 
> they also got massive power ups during EL. What massive power up did sanji get during alabasta? Was her nerfed during little garden?


Franky fought Luffy before Robin left 

Base Sanji was keeping up with Jabra who shits on fukuro even without dj Sanji was stronger than franky


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## Mylesime (Jun 4, 2022)

Cursemark said:


> This panel is often used to downplay Yamato, but when you look into it it's still very impressive.
> 
> The ice shield didn't block Kaido's TB, fine...That means that Yamato took a straight up TB to the head (Which weaker version of knocked G4 Luffy out cold). That's a great durability feat in her favor.



She did not take it straight up, her ice armor served as a cushion  mitigating the impact.
Yet she suffered significant damages,  which is normal since her father is the WSC.
We saw what Kaido was truly able to do with his Fire, future sight, etc. Yamato is not anywhere near Yonko level.
How many stronger Bagua's Kaido had in the bag?


I'm not downplaying Yamato,  she's strong.
Comparable to the strongest commanders like i said.
Just putting things into perspective.
Fact of the matter is that Kaido is out of Yamato's league, and Sanji was way stronger than Queen at the end of the fight post power up.
Who they fought matters of course....
How they performed and what they ultimately accomplished do too.


I've seen Joz or Marco stall top tiers, Jinbei to some extent did it too. I've seen Queen bring Big Mom to Kaido or fight Marco.
Yamato is far closer to Sanji than she is to Kaido.
That's all.
Sanji is strong too.
Stronger imo.
Most agree that they're not that far apart. So it's not controversial.
Baby steps.


Having Yamato weaker than Sanji is nothing crazy. Both fighters being on the same tier overall. Which doesn't contradict an high diff vote for Yamato.




shintebukuro said:


> Of course it's close. Everybody agrees on that. Look at the poll numbers.
> 
> But that's also the _problem_. Sanji should be a TIER above the next person, because he needs to justify being a "kaibutsu" ("Monster") whereas the next person in line can't qualify for that level.
> 
> Otherwise, Oda needs to formally change it to the "kaibutsu yoningumi" ("Monster Four"). And clearly Yamato qualifies as a monster.



Nothing  limitates Yamato's potential, nor her current level except the ceiling some arbitrarly put on Sanji or Gaban without any  basis.
Some can't fathom the thought that Sanji might actually ultimately be stronger than Yamato EoS, or Kaido......

She is just the latest, and most formidable addition to the crew strength wise.
That trend started with Robin, then Franky, followed by Brook, Jinbei and now Yamato.
Last year the same type of debate took place regarding Jinbei, a former warlord and his 500 million berries bounty......
Sanji proved to be stronger,so now people just act like it never took place which is.... convenient.

Yamato is the new recruit, the new shining toy....... and the same thing will take place imo.
Hindsight is everything,  everyone act like it has always been a forgone conclusion that Sanji would be the left hand to this day.
It was not. Many had Jinbei as superior in a new monster group a few months ago....
We shall see, maybe sooner than most think.


Bottom line Sanji is constantly downplayed,  folks have a harder time believing he will reach a certain level with every new member.
It was tough to comprehend with Jinbei, it is tougher with Yamato....

Yet he will be a top tier during the final war.
Was already portrayed significantly stronger than one YC2.
I'm not downplaying Yamato,  you guys are law balling Sanji and anything linked to him like Gaban for example. A guy we know nothing about.

Nothing new. It will be the same outcome i believe. We're speculating after all.
But if anything the safe bet is clear to see.


The gap between the M3 and the new recruits decrease with time, filling the gap with the other members of the crew.
Yamato is stronger than Jinbei who was already stronger than the others.

If anything those who claim that the formula is not valid anymore are the ones with the hot take..... not the other way around.
Every single new member was somewhere between Chopper and Sanji. Generally between Sanji and the last recruit. Despite all the expertise at those times.....

Again revisionist history. Before the Onigashima raid and the latest power up, it wasn't the same situation at all......
Sanji had apparently nothing on Jinbei, Doflamingo,  Killer, Apoo, Drake... basically everyone and their mothers, you name the strong character..... chances are it works.
Yet it is not even guaranteed that some of those guys were actually stronger.





A Optimistic said:


> besides oda had sanji go from being weaker than page one to much stronger than queen in a single arc



That's fake news.
Sanji has never been weaker than Page 1 on Wano.





Anyway, let's wait and see.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Siskebabas (Jun 4, 2022)

Turrin said:


> A Kaidou who isn’t going full tilt wouldn’t body anyone. We plainly saw that with the scabbers landing blows on him despite them being weaker then Queen. Let’s also not pretend that Kaidou wasn’t destroying Yamato. All she really did was take hits.
> 
> I’m not saying Yamato couldn’t be much stronger then Sanji, I’m just saying Kaidou isn’t a good guide of that because when he is not going full tilt it’s impossible to gauge how close she actually is to him. Especially when her Bagua didn’t even KO Ulti. This is why I said by tangible feats Sanji should be stronger because his are actually measurable, but by potential as the next Oden Yamato could be closer to or even above Zoro


Bagua knocked her out for little bit and it was from base yamato nerfed with kairoseki and without coc. 
Thats her lowest end feat. 
Youre trying to argue on technicality that Kaido jobs a lot. We now for a fact that baise Kaido bodies scabbards which are way way above queen in power level as combined force. Then we have hybrid Kaido while he wasnt going with his highest end techniques he still put heavy power on his attacks as Yamato mentioned and she managed counter his bague with her own which way above whatever sanji has shown


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## convict (Jun 4, 2022)

Since really all the debates and back and forth are done and dusted and I can see arguments for both sides at this point I feel like I owe it to commander of the legion, ZKK division, General @Kishido to support Sanji in this.

On the other hand that would also mean throwing my lot with the likes of @MrPopo and @Mylesime which is a frightful thought.

Hmm.



Quite a dilemma

Reactions: Funny 14


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## MrPopo (Jun 4, 2022)

convict said:


> Since really all the debates and back and forth are done and dusted and I can see arguments for both sides at this point I feel like I owe it to commander of the legion, ZKK division, General @Kishido to support Sanji in this.
> 
> On the other hand that would also mean throwing my lot with the likes of @MrPopo and @Mylesime which is a frightful thought.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 4, 2022)

convict said:


> Since really all the debates and back and forth are done and dusted and I can see arguments for both sides at this point I feel like I owe it to commander of the legion, ZKK division, General @Kishido to support Sanji in this.
> 
> On the other hand that would also mean throwing my lot with the likes of @MrPopo and @Mylesime which is a frightful thought.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Kishido (Jun 4, 2022)

ZKK

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## bil02 (Jun 4, 2022)

Ezekjuninor said:


> You realise Law is 26. Yamato being this strong at 28 while not even exploring the world at all is very impressive


Yamato grew up in a land of Ryuo users,got beatings from Emperor Kaido himself to get stronger and had training from sea stone cuffs for 20 years.

That's a short cut to get stronger very fast.

Reactions: Like 1


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## T.D.A (Jun 4, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Scopper and Rayleigh were still the left and right hand men of the PK despite Oden likely being stronger than one of them based on portrayal. Same applies to Yamato who's the Oden of the Strawhats.
> 
> 
> Which is why I said not stronger than them as a team.
> ...



Yamato isn’t beating Scabbards all at once either


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## Mariko (Jun 4, 2022)

T.D.A said:


> Yamato isn’t beating Scabbards all at once either

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Jun 4, 2022)

Siskebabas said:


> Bagua knocked her out for little bit and it was from base yamato nerfed with kairoseki and without coc.
> Thats her lowest end feat.
> Youre trying to argue on technicality that Kaido jobs a lot. We now for a fact that baise Kaido bodies scabbards which are way way above queen in power level as combined force. Then we have hybrid Kaido while he wasnt going with his highest end techniques he still put heavy power on his attacks as Yamato mentioned and she managed counter his bague with her own which way above whatever sanji has shown


Base Kaidou only bodied the Scabbers because he started trying harder. It’s not like Base Kaidou is stronger then his Dragon Form. His Dragon Form is literally his strongest form; and he still was taking hits from the Weakest Scabbers, due to not trying very hard.

And yes we know Yamato faced hybrid Kaidou, but we also know that Hybrid Kaidou was not even trying as hard as he was against G2/3 Luffy and was beating Yamato soundly. So Yamato is still much weaker then G2/3 Luffy. I have a hard time believing that Sanji and Zoro are massively weaker then someone who is in turn massively weaker then just G2/3 Luffy. I’m going to need more then Yamato’s fight against Kaidou to start believing the Power scale on the straw hats is going to be

G5 Luffy > G4 > G2/3 >> Yamato >> Zoro/Sanji

I need Yamato to face someone who is not her Jobber Dad.


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## Soba (Jun 4, 2022)

Feat wise it's really Yamato, then again she also kinda beats Zoro, so that's not a shameful thing. I do think all 3 are very close and give each other very high to extreme diff. Maybe Yamato extreme diffs Zoro and very high diffs Sanji, but it's really hard to say. Maybe her feats were a one time thing and next arc Zoro and Sanji are just gonna be magically stronger than her. Really hard to gauge this one. We need to see what her dynamic in the crew is gonna be to judge it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Conxc (Jun 4, 2022)

Kinda hilarious how some Sanji fans don't mind you saying she's stronger, so long as you claim she's stronger than Zoro too.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## T.D.A (Jun 4, 2022)

SobaHat said:


> Feat wise it's really Yamato, then again she also kinda beats Zoro, so that's not a shameful thing. I do think all 3 are very close and give each other very high to extreme diff. Maybe Yamato extreme diffs Zoro and very high diffs Sanji, but it's really hard to say. Maybe her feats were a one time thing and next arc Zoro and Sanji are just gonna be magically stronger than her. Really hard to gauge this one. We need to see what her dynamic in the crew is gonna be to judge it.



Zoro is already stronger imo. Zoro can now match Yamato's advanced CoC, maybe even surpass it if we're just going by how much haki was leaking and what kind of devastation it caused.


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## Almageste (Jun 4, 2022)

I feel like it’s a Robin/Jinbei like situation, where the character is seemingly stronger than SHP bar Luffy the first time they are introduced as a potential member. However, the same way it happened with Robin and especially Jinbei (I remember how people were arguing we was stronger than Sanji when he joined pre Onigashima), I think that she’s going to remain below the guy literally called number 3 no matter what (even if featwise she’s above him).
I think Oda by next arc will draw Sanji, and Zoro obviously, as stronger than Yamato. But as of right now, I’ll go with Yamato extreme diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Jun 4, 2022)

Another thing I keep seeing, "his name is 3, so he *has *to be the third strongest in the crew at all times" even though he was named Sanji in relation to his family. The third brother born to Judge, right? Kinda crazy how that's used as an argument despite Yamato's very clear superior feats, hype, and portrayal. Again, there is no argument for the cook aside from the crutches that are the lolM3, lolWings, lolStars, lolhisnameis3 arguments. Poor arguments. Ya'll can't debate with feats or portrayal. Very telling.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Almageste (Jun 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Another thing I keep seeing, "his name is 3, so he *has *to be the third strongest in the crew at all times" even though he was named Sanji in relation to his family. The third brother born to Judge, right? Kinda crazy how that's used as an argument despite Yamato's very clear superior feats, hype, and portrayal. Again, there is no argument for the cook aside from the crutches that are the lolM3, lolWings, lolStars, lolhisnameis3 arguments. Poor arguments. Ya'll can't debate with feats or portrayal. Very telling.


Sanji was named Sanji before Germa even came to existence in Oda’s mind. It’s quite funny to see this almost unhealthy obsession in trying to find a crowbar that splits the M3 concept when Oda keeps shoving it in everyone’s mouth (Queen commenting on Zoro/Sanji being the second/third strongest fighters as the latest instance that comes to mind).
Obviously as of right now, Yamato wins featwise. But if you think Oda won’t find a way to write Sanji as stronger by the very next major battle, then you have not been paying attention to this manga.
He wrote a magic sword/CoC and science bullshit to make Zoro/Sanji top commander fighters, he will find ways to make them top tier. I reaaaally hope Sanji won’t get CoC as well as it could cause some heart attacks around these parts.

Reactions: Like 5 | Optimistic 1


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## Conxc (Jun 4, 2022)

Almageste said:


> Sanji was named Sanji before Germa even came to existence in Oda’s mind. It’s quite funny to see this almost unhealthy obsession in trying to find a crowbar that splits the M3 concept when Oda keeps shoving it in everyone’s mouth (Queen commenting on Zoro/Sanji being the second/third strongest fighters as the latest instance that comes to mind).
> Obviously as of right now, Yamato wins featwise. But if you think Oda won’t find a way to write Sanji as stronger by the very next major battle, then you have not been paying attention to this manga.
> He wrote a magic sword/CoC and science bullshit to make Zoro/Sanji top commander fighters, he will find ways to make them top tier. I reaaaally hope Sanji won’t get CoC as well as it could cause some heart attacks around these parts.


And yet he explained Sanji's naming once his family and Germa were revelaed...He was named Sanji because of his family dynamic. Earlier I asked when the last time the term "monster trio" was used in the manga and that there should surely be at least a couple uses for an ironclad plot point, right? No one could provide that for me from a trusted source like the official viz, I wonder why.

He won't. He's not built for that and that's ok. He's a cook. The fact that he's made it this far is impressive.


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## Chip Skylark (Jun 4, 2022)

Food for thought(for the Yamagoat doubters). Maybe the M3 dynamic never changed because no new addition was powerful enough to challenge it until recently. Maybe, while strength is important, being Luffy’s wings has to do with more than just power. Maybe the story is fluid and unrestricted by patterns, so it’d be best to approach new developments with an open mind rather than limiting them to what we’ve experienced in the manga’s past.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Karma (Jun 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Food for thought(for the Yamagoat doubters). Maybe the M3 dynamic never changed because no new addition was powerful enough to challenge it until recently. Maybe, while strength is important, being Luffy’s wings has to do with more than just power. Maybe the story is fluid and unrestricted by patterns, so it’d be best to approach new developments with an open mind rather than limiting them to what we’ve experienced in the manga’s past.


Jinbei was literally stronger than Zoro or Sanji for over a decade until he joined, then got matched with WW. Didnt even get the satisfaction of fighting Jack.

The story isnt fluid, theres almost 30 years worth of content backing this up. If u wanna argue that itll change then provide proof of it rather than argueing wut u want to happen.

Reactions: Like 4 | Optimistic 1


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## Chip Skylark (Jun 4, 2022)

Karma said:


> Jinbei was literally stronger than Zoro or Sanji for over a decade until he joined, then got matched with WW. Didnt even get the satisfaction of fighting Jack.
> 
> The story isnt fluid, theres almost 30 years worth of content backing this up. If u wanna argue that itll change then provide proof of it rather than argueing wut u want to happen.


From the alliances, to the fights and the saga structure the story has developed in ways that deviated from part 1’s structure plenty of times.

Yamato has provably better feats than Sanji, and there’s no sign of her recruitment being conveniently pushed back. That’s proof of change in itself, and it’s unreasonable to act like an adherence to a perceived pattern is reason enough to deny it. The pattern will always exist in your mind as long as you continue to twist developments in favor of it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Mylesime (Jun 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> From the alliances, to the fights and the saga structure the story has developed in ways that deviated from part 1’s structure plenty of times.
> 
> Yamato has provably better feats than Sanji, and there’s no sign of her recruitment being conveniently pushed back. That’s proof of change in itself, and it’s unreasonable to act like an adherence to a perceived pattern is reason enough to deny it. The pattern will always exist in your mind as long as you continue to twist developments in favor of it.



First of all we are all speculating regarding future events, both sides.

And we have different evaluations regarding the two characters performances,  current power level. Even tough , most of us agree about the fact that it's relatively close.
So basically,  many are claiming that Oda will change decades long structure, shake things up, because of a rather small power gap.....  why? Why bother establishing the Pirate King's wings moniker ( i won't even bother discussing why it is power related, there are limits to dishonesty).

Next arcs, who is fighting the n°3 on the opposing side?
Since nothing is set in stone, structure is fluid, etc, on Elbaf, Laughtale, Marie Geoise, etc.
Who is fighting n°3 bad guy in your opinion.
Yamato or Sanji?


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## Kishido (Jun 4, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Next arcs, who is fighting the n°3 on the opposing side?
> Since nothing is set in stone, structure is fluid, etc, on Elbaf, Laughtale, Marie Geoise, etc.
> Who is fighting n°3 bad guy in your opinion.
> Yamato or Sanji?



Yamato will beat low dif the 4th strongest as Jinbei has done with  Who is Who


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## A Optimistic (Jun 4, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> That's fake news.
> Sanji has never been weaker than Page 1 on Wano.



page one was easily throwing raid suit sanji into buildings

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Karma (Jun 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> From the alliances, to the fights and the saga structure the story has developed in ways that deviated from part 1’s structure plenty of times.
> 
> Yamato has provably better feats than Sanji, and there’s no sign of her recruitment being conveniently pushed back. That’s proof of change in itself, and it’s unreasonable to act like an adherence to a perceived pattern is reason enough to deny it. The pattern will always exist in your mind as long as you continue to twist developments in favor of it.


I just saw Luffy beat his first top tier the same way he beat Alvida did in chapter 1, Arlong in Arlong Park, Croc in Alabasta, etc.

Like Luffy, Zoro beat the second in command and Sanji the third.

I dont need to twist facts to my agenda wen the characters names, to how they presented with their captain and even the VC flat out telling ud whos strongest.

Im not worried abt Oda portrayal of Zoro or Sanji compared to Yamato, and for my sake i hope the SHs dont fight the RHPs. Id die laughing at all the posts trying to argue the likes of Howling Gab is stronger than Beckmann because Yamato got paired with him.


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## Mylesime (Jun 4, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> page one was easily throwing raid suit sanji into buildings











Kishido said:


> Yamato will beat low dif the 4th strongest as Jinbei has done with  Who is Who





Greatness incoming.
The arguments are bound to be more and more nonsensical. 
Do you hear about Winbei nowadays?




Same old story.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chip Skylark (Jun 4, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Next arcs, who is fighting the n°3 on the opposing side?
> Since nothing is set in stone, structure is fluid, etc, on Elbaf, Laughtale, Marie Geoise, etc.
> Who is fighting n°3 bad guy in your opinion.
> Yamato or Sanji?


Who knows. That’s the whole thing about a fluid story.

Besides, are we gonna pretend that Sanji always gets a fight? Sanji didn’t get a solo fight with any of Enel’s priests in Skypeia. Sanji didn’t have any notable fight in WCI. Neither did he get to fight the #3 in Dressrosa.

Hell, Absalom was Sanji’s opponent in Thriller Bark despite there being no hierarchy in either strength or status amongst Moria’s lieutenants, and Perona arguably seeming to be the superior fighter.

So no, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Sanji to play a Mr. Prince-esque role in future arcs while the enemies #3 is delegated to someone else. As it’s been done a few times already.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Shunsuiju (Jun 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> So no, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Sanji to play a Mr. Prince-esque role in future arcs while the enemies #3 is delegated to someone else. As it’s been done a few times already.


You think Yamato will fight Blackbeard's #3, the WG's #3 and so on?

Sounds like a bet to me.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Karma (Jun 4, 2022)

Yep definitely a ZKK mega bet thread is needed

Even more guaranteed of W than the Kidd/Law Vs BM thread.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Chip Skylark (Jun 4, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> You think Yamato will fight Blackbeard's #3, the WG's #3 and so on?
> 
> Sounds like a bet to me.


Why do y’all never read a full post before responding?  

We’re adults, it’s not even 2 paragraphs long.


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## Mylesime (Jun 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Who knows. That’s the whole thing about a fluid story.



Nobody knows, like i said we're all speculating.  Open mind works both ways tough.....


One Piece is not a fluid story, nor subversive. This is no HxH , or Jujutsu kaisen, etc.
Luffy punches the bad guy in the mouth at the end more times than not.
Onigashima is the classical set up for the crew.




Chip Skylark said:


> Besides, are we gonna pretend that Sanji always gets a fight? Sanji didn’t get a fight with any of Enel’s priests in Skypeia. Sanji didn’t have any notable fight in WCI. Neither did he get to fight the #3 in Dressrosa.



You're using exceptions, rather than the usual set up through all these years.
Big arc such as Wano, Ennies Lobby, Albasta have the same structure.
Sanji fought n°3 each time.
I was asking you about the likeliest outcome in future arcs in your opinion, Sanji fighting Kuroobi or Gin in the past doesn't mean he's got more chances than Zoro confronting n°2s going forward.
Despite the fact that Zoro did not fight on Drum island, or was not present in WCI, or was unavailable on the  Baratie....
We all know n°2s are likely his preys.....




Chip Skylark said:


> Hell, Absalom was Sanji’s opponent in Thriller Bark despite there being no hierarchy in either strength or status amongst Moria’s lieutenants, and Perona arguably seeming to be the superior fighter.



Disagree.
Absalom was clearly given more status than Perona, he saved Moriah from death vs Doflamingo and Moriah confronted BB because of him. He was his right hand.




Chip Skylark said:


> So no, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Sanji to play a Mr. Prince-esque role in future arcs while the enemies #3 is delegated to someone else. As it’s been done a *few times* already.



Key words, like you said a few times.

I'm not claiming it is something absolute, again there are counter examples occasionnaly, like with Gin for example.
However Who's likely to fight the n°3s going forward? Yamato or Sanji?
You're confident the story is fluid enough, Yamato's future opponents will be superior to Sanji's?


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## Karma (Jun 4, 2022)

Yamato is actually gonna fight the 1.5 of the crew


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## Shunsuiju (Jun 4, 2022)

Karma said:


> Yamato is actually gonna fight the 1.5 of the crew


Honestly if you think Yamato > Sanji you must also think Yamato > Zoro because they're pretty much inseperable in Oda's mind.

It's just bizzare downplay.



Chip Skylark said:


> Why do y’all never read a full post before responding?
> 
> We’re adults, it’s not even 2 paragraphs long.


Can you answer the question

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Karma (Jun 4, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Honestly if you think Yamato > Sanji you must also think Yamato > Zoro because they're pretty much inseperable in Oda's mind.
> 
> It's just bizzare downplay.


?

Luffy gets the #1, shes fighting the guy between Shanks and Beckmann,as an example, according to some of her supports

Reactions: Like 1


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## A Optimistic (Jun 4, 2022)

Mylesime said:


>



yes that’s a panel of sanji attacking an off guard page one, that isn’t impressive lol

can you show the rest of the class what happened once page 1 started attacking sanji?


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## Shunsuiju (Jun 4, 2022)

Karma said:


> ?
> 
> Luffy gets the #1, shes fighting the guy between Shanks and Beckmann,as an example, according to some of her supports


I think we're on the same page.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jun 4, 2022)

Why do dudes concentrate on the Sanji M3 connection, which is traditional crew based. But completely ignore the Yamato connection, which is explicitly Oden.

Oden clearly has more stature than Scooper, and so does Yamato with not only coc, but Adcoc.

The classical dynamics are irrelevant to her.

Reactions: Agree 6 | Informative 1


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## Chip Skylark (Jun 4, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Nobody knows, like i said we're all speculating.  Open mind works both ways tough.....


I’m not the one pushing any narrative, dude. My whole point is that this perceived pattern of yours isn’t reason enough to deny Yamato of his provably superior feats.


Mylesime said:


> You're using exceptions, rather than the usual set up through all these years.
> Big arc such as Wano, Ennies Lobby, Albasta have the same structure.


I referenced 4 of the 10 major story arcs that Sanji has participated in since his introduction. At that point it’s no longer an “exception”. There were even more examples to go off of.

By comparison, you brought up 3, and then even more that actually supported my argument of there not being a strict structure.


Mylesime said:


> Disagree.
> Absalom was clearly given more status than Perona, he saved Moriah from death vs Doflamingo and Moriah confronted BB because of him.


Saving Moria, and Moria confronting BB aren’t examples indicative of status in the crew… any of Moria’s generals would’ve saved Moria if given the opportunity, and Moria would’ve similarly confronted BB over any of them as well…

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 4, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> yes that’s a panel of sanji attacking an off guard page one, that isn’t impressive lol
> 
> can you show the rest of the class what happened once page 1 started attacking sanji?



Because P1 not damaging Sanji was impressive ?


*"It hurts a bit
the city's gonna fall apart before i do"*

i'm already debunking the Yamato propaganda, and here you are hyping up Page 1 in 2022.
Raid Suit Sanji came out unscathed after King's attack, let alone P1's......


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## Almageste (Jun 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> And yet he explained Sanji's naming once his family and Germa were revelaed...He was named Sanji because of his family dynamic. Earlier I asked when the last time the term "monster trio" was used in the manga and that there should surely be at least a couple uses for an ironclad plot point, right? No one could provide that for me from a trusted source like the official viz, I wonder why.
> 
> He won't. He's not built for that and that's ok. He's a cook. The fact that he's made it this far is impressive.


You can’t seriously believe Oda thought of the entire Germa plot line since day 1. I mean come on…it’s possible, but far less likely than the germa being created to explain Sanji’s name later down the line. Oda always had Sanji fight the third strongest, and did it again in Wano even with Jinbei who had incredible portrayal against Big Mom and whom everyone believed would mid diff Sanji/ take over his position. Guess what happened later ?

Oda clearly wants us to…I don’t know ? Understand that Sanji is bound to be the third strongest strawhat forever ?


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## Shunsuiju (Jun 4, 2022)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> Why do dudes concentrate on the Sanji M3 connection, which is traditional crew based. But completely ignore the Yamato connection, which is explicitly Oden.
> 
> *Oden clearly has more stature than Scooper*, and so does Yamato with not only coc, but Adcoc.
> 
> The classical dynamics are irrelevant to her.


Why would you assume that?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> I’m not the one pushing any narrative, dude. My whole point is that this perceived pattern of yours isn’t reason enough to deny Yamato of his provably superior feats.



I never denied Yamato's feats.
I do think it is overwanked tough, stalling Kaido doesn't put Yamato on another tier compared to Sanji.
Many act like we've never seen commanders stall top tiers tough.
What Yamato did is not different from Vista, Joz or Marco's actions at Marineford.
And Sanji is on that tier.




Chip Skylark said:


> I referenced 4 of the 10 major story arcs that Sanji has participated in since his introduction. At that point it’s no longer an “exception”. There were even more examples to go off of.



And i gave you 2 instances where Sanji was the one who fought the n°2's not Zoro.
Could have added Vergo for example.
Doesn't change the fact that Zoro is likely the one to fight the right hands.



Chip Skylark said:


> By comparison, you brought up 3, and then even more that actually supported my argument of there not being a strict structure.



See above.
I asked you who was the likeliest to fight n°3s.
Never claimed it was absolute.



Chip Skylark said:


> Saving Moria, and Moria confronting BB aren’t examples indicative of status in the crew… any of Moria’s generals would’ve saved Moria if given the opportunity, and Moria would’ve similarly confronted BB over any of them as well…



Yet Absalom was the one portrayed in those two pivotal incidents.
Hence why he has the superior portrayal (he was the one he invaded a Yonko territory for ) and feats ( he saved him from Doflamingo).
I can't understand your stance, there is clearly a contradiction,  if feats and portrayal really matters to you ( which the M3 and pirate king wings is, portrayal) Perona has nothing that matched Absalom's.


To be perfectly clear, do you believe that Yamato will fight n°3s more often than not compared to Sanji?
Or that opponents will be of a higher caliber than Sanji's going forward?


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## Karma (Jun 4, 2022)

Made a mega thread for Yamato Vs M3 discussion


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## Conxc (Jun 4, 2022)

Almageste said:


> You can’t seriously believe Oda thought of the entire Germa plot line since day 1. I mean come on…it’s possible, but far less likely than the germa being created to explain Sanji’s name later down the line. Oda always had Sanji fight the third strongest, and did it again in Wano even with Jinbei who had incredible portrayal against Big Mom and whom everyone believed would mid diff Sanji/ take over his position. Guess what happened later ?
> 
> Oda clearly wants us to…I don’t know ? Understand that Sanji is bound to be the third strongest strawhat forever ?


Dude, my point is, before his family was revealed, if you thought his name was Sanji *strictly *because he was meant to be the third strongest SH no matter what, when his past and the Germa was introduced to the story, Oda also introduced more insight and the *actual *reason that his name is Sanji, which is because he is Judge's third son. If anything, you could see it as a correction to that former way of thinking.

Nah, that's just Sanji stan headcanon along with the other superficial excuses to ignore superior feats, hype, and portrayal of stronger characters so that Sanji can have a leg up on them. Like I said, anyone claiming that Sanji is stronger than Yamato cannot reference feats, hype, or portrayal to justify said claim. Super weak arguments.



Shunsuiju said:


> Honestly if you think Yamato > Sanji you must also think Yamato > Zoro because they're pretty much inseperable in Oda's mind.
> 
> It's just bizzare downplay.
> 
> ...


More Sanji fan headcanon. Oda couldn't have separated the two any more than he already has all timeskip. A case can be made for Zoro being stronger than Yamato based off feats and portrayal. The same cannot be said for the cook so you have to rely on m3, wings nonsense.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Food for thought(for the Yamagoat doubters). Maybe the M3 dynamic never changed because no new addition was powerful enough to challenge it until recently. Maybe, while strength is important, being Luffy’s wings has to do with more than just power. Maybe the story is fluid and unrestricted by patterns, so it’d be best to approach new developments with an open mind rather than limiting them to what we’ve experienced in the manga’s past.




_These exact arguments have always been brought up for the next in line to challenge the M3.

Heck in Wano Sanji was getting push back from the community on two fronts :

1. It's the arc of the Supernova's so there's no room for someone who is not a dedicated fighter like Sanji to take on a Commander
2. Jimbe will join the crew and he has never seen before strength and status compared to any other addition to our crew

The M3 was already supposed to be dead with Oda no longer focusing on Sanji's growth as a combatant. 

Heck, even as early as the beginning of Onigashima we had folks push Jimbe heavily because of what they thought some panels placement meant for portrayal  


This "Let's keep an open mind for change" is not a novel idea. It's what we've done early on, and then more and more of us started to learn and understand that things are less and less likely to change once a perticular dynamic get's continuous reinforcement.


By now we should all understand a few things such as :

1. Luffy is the captain and the strongest SH
2. Zoro is Luffy's right hand man and the second strongest SH
3. Sanji is Luffy's left hand man and the third strongest SH

In this arc alone Oda doubled up on Zoro and Sanji by pushing them as the Wings of the Pirate King, as well as the "Stars" of this new generation that take the stage in Marco's place in order to defeat Kaido's "All Stars".


Luffy as the strongest SH is not controversial. 
Zoro as the second strongest SH is not controversial.

We don't have to keep an open mind about them potentially losing their spots now, do we ?

Why is it controversial that Sanji is meant to be the third strongest SH when that has been his thing as much as it was for Luffy to be the strongest and Zoro the second strongest ?

Why is it that at Sanji we draw the line and it's fine to question and pretend we don't understand his role to the same extent we do for the other two ?

_

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Shunsuiju (Jun 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> A case can be made for Zoro being stronger than Yamato based off feats and portrayal.


Defeating someone who is a hair stronger than the guy Sanji defeated is the difference between having a case and not having one at all.

Nice.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 4, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Why would you assume that?




Sources:







Pure headcanon and baseless claims.
We literrally know jack shit about Scopper Gaban. Yet many experts are able to precisely evaluate the gap between him and Oden.
And then draw conclusions about Sanji and Yamato......

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Conxc (Jun 4, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Defeating someone who is a hair stronger than the guy Sanji defeated is the difference between having a case and not having one at all.
> 
> Nice.


King isn't just a hair stronger than Queen. Please stop this nonsense.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Ushiromiya Battler (Jun 4, 2022)



Reactions: Friendly 1 | Creative 1


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## Almageste (Jun 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Dude, my point is, before his family was revealed, if you thought his name was Sanji *strictly *because he was meant to be the third strongest SH no matter what, when his past and the Germa was introduced to the story, Oda also introduced more insight and the *actual *reason that his name is Sanji, which is because he is Judge's third son. If anything, you could see it as a correction to that former way of thinking.
> 
> Nah, that's just Sanji stan headcanon along with the other superficial excuses to ignore superior feats, hype, and portrayal of stronger characters so that Sanji can have a leg up on them. Like I said, anyone claiming that Sanji is stronger than Yamato cannot reference feats, hype, or portrayal to justify said claim. Super weak arguments.
> 
> ...


You call wings nonsense yet that was clearly stated by the author and even used as the name of the chapter. Unless you want to add Yamato as a third wing or beak or whatever, the author could not be clearer.

At this point, I see your arguments more as denial and selective reading, but I guess you’ll just accuse me of the same right ? Let’s keep this simple then: feat wise, Yamato is superior to Sanji now (which I’ve already stated above), but by the next major battle, we will see if she will break the M3 (for the hundredth time now as prophesied by Sanji haters, whom most are ironically Zoro stans). 

It’s not even a matter of feats, but portrayal and narrative, as Oda couldn’t care less about logic: either both Zoro and Sanji stay right under Luffy as wings, with Yamato/Jinbei next, or Yamato becomes Luffy’s second in command. Let’s see who is proven right in several months.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Chip Skylark (Jun 4, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Luffy as the strongest SH is not controversial.
> Zoro as the second strongest SH is not controversial.
> 
> We don't have to keep an open mind about them potentially losing their spots now, do we ?
> ...


You’re quoting the wrong guy. Never said that the line is drawn exclusively at Sanji. Personally I think Yamato is currently stronger than Zoro, but I believe Zoro has the potential to surpass him.

But that goes beyond their role. Luffy has way more than just his position as the captain going for him, and Zoro similarly has more than just his position as Luffy’s right hand. That’s why their standing is less debatable. 

If you believe that Sanji is stronger than Yamato then you should back that up with actual feats rather than some arbitrary dynamic that you got accustomed to.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## A Optimistic (Jun 4, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Because P1 not damaging Sanji was impressive ?
> 
> 
> *"It hurts a bit
> ...



Sanji got physically overpowered. He’s weaker

page one wins with either high or extreme difficulty



Mylesime said:


> Raid Suit Sanji came out unscathed after King's attack, let alone P1's......



Sanji was concerned for his life from king’s attack

not to mention more then a week has happened between those two fights, sanji grew in strength


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jun 4, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Why would you assume that?


You think that the Oden hype that includes being 2nd division commander to WB, and a member of Rogers crew, voice of all things, almost 2 shotting Kaido doesn't beat standing next to Rayleigh?

I know Rayleigh is pretty cool, but I think you need a little bit more than being next to him in a panel to trump the ridiculous Oden hype.


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## A Optimistic (Jun 4, 2022)

@Mylesime base sanji was taking black Maria’s punches during the raid, even saying if he uses CoA he will harm her

it’s disingenuous to imply that’s the same sanji that was getting his ass kicked by page one. Sanji (along with everyone else) grew in strength when the raid began. More than a week passed between page one sending him flying to the raid beginning


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## Mylesime (Jun 4, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Sanji got physically overpowered.



Page 1 got overpowered too.
Numerous times i might add, got knocked down by base Sanji to start the fight.
Was seen the last time screaming in pain while Law, Franky and Ussop were fleeing.




A Optimistic said:


> He’s weaker
> 
> page one wins with either high or extreme difficulty



Raid Suit Sanji mid diff.



A Optimistic said:


> Sanji was concerned for his life from king’s attack



And we learned neither Luffy, nor Sanji had any reason to be so concerned.
The suit negated the damages .
P1 was not going to do shit to Raid Suit Sanji....



A Optimistic said:


> not to mention more then a week has happened between those two fights, sanji grew in strength


He grew so much that he was getting high diffed by P1, and ended up able to hold his own vs Queen in base, and was afraid to hurt Black Maria using his CoA prior to his awakening. That's your theory?

Raid Suit Sanji was stronger than P1, which was perfectly obvious looking at how he dominated him.



A Optimistic said:


> @Mylesime base sanji was taking black Maria’s punches during the raid, even saying if he uses CoA he will harm her
> 
> it’s disingenuous to imply that’s the same sanji that was getting his ass kicked by page one. Sanji (along with everyone else) grew in strength when the raid began. More than a week passed between page one sending him flying to the raid beginning



Disagree.
What is disingenuous is claiming that Sanji grew so much prior to his DNA awakening that he went from losing with his suit vs P1 to fearing to hurt Black Maria because of his CoA, or dealing with Queen pretty well in base.
P1 sending Sanji flying was nothing.
You're basically claiming that Base Sanji on Onigashima prior to his awakening was stronger than Raid Suit Sanji in the flower capital, prior to his Power Up......
Let that sink in. 


Those events did not take place in a vaccum either.  Sanji was already dealing with Daifuku or Oven on WCI in base.
Characters that are likely on par with P1.

P1 simply wasn't stronger than Raid Suit Sanji.
It was one thing to discuss it in 2020 ( it really wasn't tough.....).,after this Raid it's pretty clear where each of them stood .


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## Kishido (Jun 4, 2022)

Reminder that Apoo knocked out iffy for seconds and Scabbards did more damage to Kaidou than Yamato 

Bonus 
Pre skip Luffy blocked Buddha Sengoku


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> You’re quoting the wrong guy. Never said that the line is drawn exclusively at Sanji. Personally I think Yamato is currently stronger than Zoro, but I believe Zoro has the potential to surpass him.
> 
> But that goes beyond their role. Luffy has way more than just his position as the captain going for him, and Zoro similarly has more than just his position as Luffy’s right hand. That’s why their standing is less debatable.
> 
> If you believe that Sanji is stronger than Yamato then you should back that up with actual feats rather than some arbitrary dynamic that you got accustomed to.



_How is a dynamic that has been consistently reinforced through over a thousand chapters and as close to the point of this discussion as this very arc in any way arbitrary ?

How is this more arbitrary than relying on having Poster A vs Poster B talk about what they think X or Y feat means in their vs thread on a random forum ?   


Luffy's and Zoro standing isn't more or less debatable than Sanji, it's exactly the same.

 There's a No.1, a No.2 and a No.3, and the story constantly worked itself out so that the same No.1 and No.2 and the guy who literally has the No.3 in his name get to occupy those spots. 

Your only argument for why this dynamic ought to be broken is that you don't have trust in Sanji's potential. Same argument that was used time and time again to question his position, and every single time without fail Oda proved the doubters wrong.

I say that's something you can learn from. Or just ride with the last wave of doubters that will fade away as it always does when inevitably the Pirate King Wing's rise above everyone else _

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Chip Skylark (Jun 4, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _How is a dynamic that has been consistently reinforced through over a thousand chapters and as close to the point of this discussion as this very arc in any way arbitrary ?
> 
> How is this more arbitrary than relying on having Poster A vs Poster B talk about what they think X or Y feat means in their vs thread on a random forum ?
> 
> ...


Y’all really need to start reading posts before quoting people. This is getting ridiculous


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## Gitagon (Jun 4, 2022)

They might surpass Yamato in the future but Sanji and even Zoro aren't at that level yet.


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## Conxc (Jun 4, 2022)

Almageste said:


> You call wings nonsense yet that was clearly stated by the author and even used as the name of the chapter. Unless you want to add Yamato as a third wing or beak or whatever, the author could not be clearer.
> 
> At this point, I see your arguments more as denial and selective reading, but I guess you’ll just accuse me of the same right ? Let’s keep this simple then: feat wise, Yamato is superior to Sanji now (which I’ve already stated above), but by the next major battle, we will see if she will break the M3 (for the hundredth time now as prophesied by Sanji haters, whom most are ironically Zoro stans).
> 
> It’s not even a matter of feats, but portrayal and narrative, as Oda couldn’t care less about logic: either both Zoro and Sanji stay right under Luffy as wings, with Yamato/Jinbei next, or Yamato becomes Luffy’s second in command. Let’s see who is proven right in several months.


I have yet to see where the Wings statement has been directly correlated to strength. I guess it must be a hidden text or something, because off this Wings statement, you guys somehow gather that this means Sanji will always be third strongest and that he'll be extremely close to Zoro in stregnth no matter what the feats dictate. You guys need to stop using these weak, exaggerated dynamics as crutches for your arguments. Again, if an argument cannot be made with feats and portrayal when they are available, it's probably not a good argument.

Yes, we will see, I guess. Yamato quite obviously will not replace Zoro as second in command. If anything, the number two spot in these crews and factions is what's ironclad, not that other nonsense. Oda doubled, no, tripled, no *quadrupled *down on Zoro's position as Luffy's right hand in this Wano arc, as if it wasn't made obvious already.

Feats and portrayal are apart of the narrative. Whop creates these feats and portrays characters in the series? Oda. The writer of this manga portrayed Yamato better than Sanji and gave her better feats. He's gone out of his way to portray Yamato in  the light that she has been so far. Can't say I see why he'd do that if he thought that anyone who joins the crew can't be stronger than Sanji. Sanji stan headcanon.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## A Optimistic (Jun 4, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Raid Suit Sanji mid diff.



cmon bro lol

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Conxc (Jun 4, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> cmon bro lol


you're surprised by this?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Kishido (Jun 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I have yet to see where the Wings statement has been directly correlated to strength. I guess it must be a hidden text or something, because off this Wings statement, you guys somehow gather that this means Sanji will always be third strongest and that he'll be extremely close to Zoro in stregnth no matter what the feats dictate. You guys need to stop using these weak, exaggerated dynamics as crutches for your arguments. Again, if an argument cannot be made with feats and portrayal when they are available, it's probably not a good argument.
> 
> Yes, we will see, I guess. Yamato quite obviously will not replace Zoro as second in command. If anything, the number two spot in these crews and factions is what's ironclad, not that other nonsense. Oda doubled, no, tripled, no *quadrupled *down on Zoro's position as Luffy's right hand in this Wano arc, as if it wasn't made obvious already.
> 
> Feats and portrayal are apart of the narrative. Whop creates these feats and portrays characters in the series? Oda. The writer of this manga portrayed Yamato better than Sanji and gave her better feats. He's gone out of his way to portray Yamato in  the light that she has been so far. Can't say I see why he'd do that if he thought that anyone who joins the crew can't be stronger than Sanji. Sanji stan headcanon.



You are right. Wings just means most trustful and reliable members. 

Fuck Nami and the others

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## A Optimistic (Jun 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> you're surprised by this?



I suppose I shouldn’t be

Reactions: Agree 1


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## A Optimistic (Jun 4, 2022)

Anyways it’s luffy >>>>>> Yamato > Zoro >> sanji > jinbei

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Creative 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 4, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> cmon bro lol







Against P1?
Raid Suit Sanji?

Mid diff.



Conxc said:


> you're surprised by this?



You've got EoS Sanji fighting a vice admiral Jesus fcking Christ. And you're basically claiming that the Wings of the Pirate King is a political party where they intend to come up with a program, #NostrentghRelated






Every time Sanji is concerned i simply take the opposite stance than yours. Don't even need to bother  about the exact topic.
Never failed me so far.
Looking forward to seeing you react to WinsGod inevitable greatness.....

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Conxc (Jun 4, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Against P1?
> Raid Suit Sanji?
> 
> Mid diff.


I remember back when you were pushing the narrative that Sanji stomped P1. Such a decisive fight that Oda decided to portray them at worst equals, then leave the fight result inconclusive with no word on it ever again.


Mylesime said:


> You've got EoS Sanji fighting a vice admiral Jesus fcking Christ. And you're basically claiming that the Wings of the Pirate King is a political party where they intend to come up with a program, #NostrentghRelated


Show me in the manga where it states that the Wings statement directly correlates to strength. If you can do that, show me where it then states that Sanji will always be number 3 in the crew no matter what. While we're at it, show me where it also states that Zoro and Sanji are close in strength. The truth is, it's a statement that you guys have shaped to mean whatever you need it to given the debate. In other words: nothing concrete, but headcanon.


Mylesime said:


> Every time Sanji is concerned i simply take the opposite stance than yours. Don't even need to bother  about the exact topic.
> Never failed me so far.
> Looking forward to seeing you react to WinsGod inevitable greatness.....


Love the optimism.


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## Mylesime (Jun 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I remember back when you were pushing the narrative that Sanji stomped P1. Such a decisive fight that Oda decided to portray them at worst equals, then leave the fight result inconclusive with no word on it ever again.



He did. Pure domination.
A fight being inconclusive is no sign of parity, Hawkins VS Zoro was inconclusive too....... Luffy vs Apoo.
Did not mean that either SNs were each SHs equals.
Ulti vs Yamato was inconclusive too....

You don't see anyone claiming nonsenses like that. It's quite bold to still claim that P1 was anywhere near Sanji i must admit....
#Disrespect.
That's the kind of debate around Vinsmoke




Which was then made perfectly clear when Oda actually showed what they were made of going all out. Utter domination.
P1 was then paired against Nami and Ussop.

But sure it makes more sense that  base Sanji was able to hold his own vs Queen, or bitchslap Perospero  on Onigashima when P1 was stronger than Raid Suit Sanji ,because Sanji miraculously  progressed drastically without any Power Up.

Again a proof that no matter the facts, nor the feats..... it ain't much compared to an agenda.
Impressively audacious.




Conxc said:


> Show me in the manga where it states that the Wings statement directly correlates to strength. If you can do that, show me where it then states that Sanji will always be number 3 in the crew no matter what. While we're at it, show me where it also states that Zoro and Sanji are close in strength. The truth is, it's a statement that you guys have shaped to mean whatever you need it to given the debate. In other words: nothing concrete, but headcanon.






*"Number two bounty"
"Tells you a lot about the level of your little crew."*

But sure, ain't nothing to do with strength.







Conxc said:


> Love the optimism.



And you're one to talk M. P1 was Raid Suit Sanji's equal, Wings have nothing to do with strength.


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## MrPopo (Jun 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Who knows. That’s the whole thing about a fluid story.
> 
> Besides, are we gonna pretend that Sanji always gets a fight? Sanji didn’t get a solo fight with any of Enel’s priests in Skypeia. Sanji didn’t have any notable fight in WCI. Neither did he get to fight the #3 in Dressrosa.
> 
> ...


Absolum was the leader of the zombie generals and morias right hand man. 

Dressrosa and wci are unique arcs where Sanji isn't present for majority of it and wci was an escape arc were no one had a major fight another than Luffy


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## Conxc (Jun 4, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> He did. Pure domination.
> A fight being inconclusive is no sign of parity, Hawkins VS Zoro was inconclusive too....... Luffy vs Apoo.
> Did not mean that either SNs were each SHs equals.
> Ulti vs Yamato was inconclusive too....
> ...


You can argue that I'm super bias against Sanji, but you're the exact opposite. No point in the two of us engaging in depth about the character tbh.


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## Conxc (Jun 4, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Absolum was the leader of the zombie generals and morias right hand man.
> 
> Dressrosa and wci are unique arcs where Sanji isn't present for majority of it and wci was an escape arc were no one had a major fight another than Luffy


In DR there quite literally was a number 3 to be defeated, and Kyros ended up taking that while Sanji was ran out of the country after suffering a humiliating defeat to Doffy. I guess Oda choosing to portray Sanji in that light is irrelevant, huh? Or how he was emarrassed by Vergo on PH, again, not getting a fight. WCI was supposed to be the yeasr of Sanji. Luffy took down two commanders and Sanji struggled against Vet level characters. Again, portrayal by Oda that I guess doesn't count. Your first excuse to these obvious shake ups was that these weren't sagas (as if that matters) but you were proven wrong about that, so now this is your argument?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> You can argue that I'm super bias against Sanji, but you're the exact opposite. No point in the two of us engaging in depth about the character tbh.









You're right about the fact there is no point for both of us talking about Sanji tough.
P1 superiority being up for debate?
I gave up on you guys like a shameless father abandoning his children.


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## MrPopo (Jun 4, 2022)

Do you loose all rationale thought when it comes Sanji @Conxc?


Conxc said:


> In DR there quite literally was a number 3 to be defeated, and Kyros ended up taking that while Sanji was ran out of the country after suffering a humiliating defeat to Doffy


Sanji left DR because he didn't want to bring the big mom pirates into the fight with Dressrossa

Please enlighten me how Sanji is meant to fight someone when he's on another island. 

With regards to Doffy Sanji had no idea how his powers work. 


Doffy also clowned Luffy in their first encounter in  Dressrosa I don't see how that is a knock against Sanji. 


Furthermore characters get clowned all the time we saw Zoro struggle with Carrot, Apoo clowning Luffy and Luffy struggling with ulti and page one, then there's also the gifters. 



Conxc said:


> . I guess Oda choosing to portray Sanji in that light is irrelevant, huh?


Oda setting up future arcs is portraying Sanji in a negative light .

 Sanji fighting Queen must just a be fluke  



Conxc said:


> Or how he was emarrassed by Vergo on PH, again, not getting a fight


Sanji was nerfed this has been addressed multiple times



Conxc said:


> . WCI was supposed to be the yeasr of Sanji. Luffy took down two commanders and Sanji struggled against Vet level characters. Again, portrayal by Oda that I guess doesn't count. Your first excuse to these obvious shake ups was that these weren't sagas (as if that matters) but you were proven wrong about that, so now this is your argument?


You mean the rescue Sanji arc that was about his character? Not every thing is about tiers and then the very next arc Oda has Sanji defeating a commander with a bounty over a billion berries

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Jun 4, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Do you loose all rationale thought when it comes Sanji @Conxc?
> 
> Sanji left DR because he didn't want to bring the big mom pirates into the fight with Dressrossa
> 
> Please enlighten me how Sanji is meant to fight someone when he's on another island.


Sanji was ran off the island after being destroyed by Doffy.

That's the point. "Sanji always fights the number 3" is something that Oda has deviated away from for a majority of the timeskip. Instead of having Sanji fight one of the 3 seats, Oda took him out of the picture. The reason doesn't really matter, as it clearly goes against what you believe to be a narrative staple.


MrPopo said:


> With regards to Doffy Sanji had no idea how his powers work.


Doffy was portrayed to be ano another levbel from Sanji. Stop making excuses. He landed clean hits and dealt zero damage. On the other hand DOffy almost casually took his life in two blows while smiling.


MrPopo said:


> Doffy also clowned Luffy in their first encounter in  Dressrosa I don't see how that is a knock against Sanji.
> 
> 
> Furthermore characters get clowned all the time we saw Zoro struggle with Carrot, Apoo clowning Luffy and Luffy struggling with ulti and page one, then there's also the gifters.


The difference being Doffy was clearly portrayed to be far above Sanji's paygrade.


MrPopo said:


> Oda setting up future arcs is portraying Sanji in a negative light .
> 
> Sanji fighting Queen must just a be fluke


So the one time he fights the number 3 mitigates all of the times that he hasn't post timeskip? The point is Oda clearly hasn't been sticking to the pre-ts "formula" when compared to post-ts. You guys need better arguments than to keep relying on these narrative crutches that the author is hardly even abiding by anymore.


MrPopo said:


> Sanji was nerfed this has been addressed multiple times


Another lame excuse. Vergo didn't use his bamboo not his CoA hardening that he is known for against Sanji. He didn't see the need to. He was still portrayed as superior.


MrPopo said:


> You mean the rescue Sanji arc that was about his character? Not every thing is about tiers and then the very next arc Oda has Sanji defeating a commander with a bounty over a billion berries


This entire post in a nutshell.


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## MrPopo (Jun 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Sanji was ran off the island after being destroyed by Doffy.


Did you even read the panels I posted ? It explains why Sanji and co left Dressrosa 


Conxc said:


> That's the point. "Sanji always fights the number 3" is something that Oda has deviated away from for a majority of the timeskip. Instead of having Sanji fight one of the 3 seats, Oda took him out of the picture. The reason doesn't really matter, as it clearly goes against what you believe to be a narrative staple.


You mean the arc where Oda did something unique by splitting up the strawhats into different arcs and then latter goes back to his formula of Sanji fighting the #3 in wano the climax of the yonkou saga.


Conxc said:


> Doffy was portrayed to be ano another levbel from Sanji. Stop making excuses. He landed clean hits and dealt zero damage. On the other hand DOffy almost casually took his life in two blows while smiling.


You can say the exact same thing about Luffy from the the panels I posted. Luffy's hawk Gatling resulted in the same way as Sanji's attack

The difference being in the counters is that Doffy kicks Luffy out of the castle instead of parasiting Luffy and going for a kill.  



Conxc said:


> The difference being Doffy was clearly portrayed to be far above Sanji's paygrade.



I don't even know why your bringing up the Doffy example to downplay Sanji it's no different than what happened with Zoro vs Enel. Oda does it to hype up the big bad.



Conxc said:


> So the one time he fights the number 3 mitigates all of the times that he hasn't post timeskip? The point is Oda clearly hasn't been sticking to the pre-ts "formula" when compared to post-ts. You guys need better arguments than to keep relying on these narrative crutches that the author is hardly even abiding by anymore.


Yet Sanji fights Queen and Oda makes the wings statement aka going back to the formula. All you have is a one time outlier where Oda split up the straw hats. 

Dressorossa is a 100 chapter arc Sanji and co left in chapter 730 that's 70 chapters of him not being in the arc. You're telling me that Oda is going to have Sanji disappear for the majority of an arc in a future sagas? 


Conxc said:


> Another lame excuse. Vergo didn't use his bamboo not his CoA hardening that he is known for against Sanji. He didn't see the need to. He was still portrayed as superior.


Because sanji was nerfed, he had no issue fighting with Vergo and was even going toe toe with him 


Conxc said:


> This entire post in a nutshell.


It's a child cartoon sanji fighting the #3 is basic knowledge its like Luffy fighting the leader

Reactions: Like 1


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## Almageste (Jun 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I have yet to see where the Wings statement has been directly correlated to strength. I guess it must be a hidden text or something, because off this Wings statement, you guys somehow gather that this means Sanji will always be third strongest and that he'll be extremely close to Zoro in stregnth no matter what the feats dictate. You guys need to stop using these weak, exaggerated dynamics as crutches for your arguments. Again, if an argument cannot be made with feats and portrayal when they are available, it's probably not a good argument.
> 
> Yes, we will see, I guess. Yamato quite obviously will not replace Zoro as second in command. If anything, the number two spot in these crews and factions is what's ironclad, not that other nonsense. Oda doubled, no, tripled, no *quadrupled *down on Zoro's position as Luffy's right hand in this Wano arc, as if it wasn't made obvious already.
> 
> Feats and portrayal are apart of the narrative. Whop creates these feats and portrays characters in the series? Oda. The writer of this manga portrayed Yamato better than Sanji and gave her better feats. He's gone out of his way to portray Yamato in  the light that she has been so far. Can't say I see why he'd do that if he thought that anyone who joins the crew can't be stronger than Sanji. Sanji stan headcanon.


By your same logic, pre onigashima Sanji should have been replaced by Jinbei the moment he joined due to his feats with Big Mom yet he wasn’t. Why is that ? And calling anyone who doesn’t hate on Sanji a Sanji Stan won’t magically make your biased arguments more relevant.
Counter examples work as argumentation, ad hominem / personam such calling the other party’s arguments weak or accusing them of being a Stan for stating facts is just useless.
Again: time.will.tell

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Jun 4, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Did you even read the panels I posted ? It explains why Sanji and co left Dressrosa



This chapter 724, the chaptyer where Law saved Sanji from an appearance on a tshirt. He quite explicitly tells them to go to Zou. There was never any intention to return to DR for him.


MrPopo said:


> You mean the arc where Oda did something unique by splitting up the strawhats into different arcs and then latter goes back to his formula of Sanji fighting the #3 in wano the climax of the yonkou saga.


The one where Sanji was clowned and had to leave the country, by Oda's design. The times that Sanji has faced the number 3 post-ts is in the minority. Whether you want to acknowledge how Oda did things outside of the saga climaxes, these things still are relevant to his portrayal. Even then, in the past, you tried to argue that the entirety of post-ts OP was apart of the Yonkou saga for the sake of argument...


MrPopo said:


> You can say the exact same thing about Luffy from the the panels I posted. Luffy's hawk Gatling resulted in the same way as Sanji's attack
> 
> The difference being in the counters is that Doffy kicks Luffy out of the castle instead of parasiting Luffy and going for a kill.


Notice how Doffy actually had to use Armament Hardening to defend against Luffy's attack, and he certainly wasn't smiling while doing so. Comparing Luffy and Sanji's performances against Doffy is crazy. Luffy wasn't food for Doffy as Sanji was, hence why he couldn't just do away with him as easily.


MrPopo said:


> I don't even know why your bringing up the Doffy example to downplay Sanji it's no different than what happened with Zoro vs Enel. Oda does it to hype up the big bad.


That's not a good argument. Not to mention that Zoro actually had his arc fight by this point. Sanji got no diffed without having an arc fight. I'd hardly call that the same.


MrPopo said:


> Yet Sanji fights Queen and Oda makes the wings statement aka going back to the formula. All you have is a one time outlier where Oda split up the straw hats.


Wings statement could mean many things, not just what you want top push.


MrPopo said:


> Dressorossa is a 100 chapter arc Sanji and co left in chapter 730 that's 70 chapters of him not being in the arc. You're telling me that Oda is going to have Sanji disappear for the majority of an arc in a future sagas?


Not necessarily, but he's clearly portrayed Sanji as less important over the ts.


MrPopo said:


> Because sanji was nerfed, he had no issue fighting with Vergo and was even going toe toe with him
> 
> It's a child cartoon sanji fighting the #3 is basic knowledge its like Luffy fighting the leader


Keep up with the excuses. Again, Vergo didn't show any sign of taking him seriously. No bamboo, no armament Hardening. Come on dude.


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## Conxc (Jun 4, 2022)

Almageste said:


> By your same logic, pre onigashima Sanji should have been replaced by Jinbei the moment he joined due to his feats with Big Mom yet he wasn’t. Why is that ? And calling anyone who doesn’t hate on Sanji a Sanji Stan won’t magically make your biased arguments more relevant.
> Counter examples work as argumentation, ad hominem / personam such calling the other party’s arguments weak or accusing them of being a Stan for stating facts is just useless.
> Again: time.will.tell


What? Jinbei was obviously stronger than pre-DNA Sanji. The problem here is you feel there is something to replace in the first place. Jinbei was stronger, period. Yamato is currently stronger, period. Sanji got his upgrades and now he's stronger than Jinbei. It's really that simple. You guys go the extra mile and will argue that pre-DNA Sanji was stronger than Jinbei because Sanji can't be replaced because lolM3, despite the vastly different feats and portrayal. That's the problem. I don't see the Ad Hominem. I didn't call you a Sanji stan, but the arguments being made are very much Sanji stan headcanon. I'm not personally attacking you.


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## Heart Over Blade (Jun 4, 2022)

People have joined the crew when still stronger than Sanji.  Yamato is obviously another case of that. By feats and portrayal Yamato is > Sanji, due to outperforming and scaling above the Scabbards as a team. Whether Sanji will end up stronger than her is another question entirely. However, since she is the Oden of the crew it's not guaranteed either.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Almageste (Jun 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> What? Jinbei was obviously stronger than pre-DNA Sanji. The problem here is you feel there is something to replace in the first place. Jinbei was stronger, period. Yamato is currently stronger, period. Sanji got his upgrades and now he's stronger than Jinbei. It's really that simple. You guys go the extra mile and will argue that pre-DNA Sanji was stronger than Jinbei because Sanji can't be replaced because lolM3, despite the vastly different feats and portrayal. That's the problem. I don't see the Ad Hominem. I didn't call you a Sanji stan, but the arguments being made are very much Sanji stan headcanon. I'm not personally attacking you.


Well I actually agree with you regarding your reasoning in the first part of your text: You say that Sanji was weaker than Jinbei pre upgrade (I believe he was comparable to Jinbei then, but whatever), and that he got stronger after the upgrades. Why is that then ? Oda randomly chose to have the “cook” gain the edge over the ex-warlord who tied with Ace in the past and was impressive against big mom ? Or maybe..I dunno ? Because he felt he couldn’t break the M3 dynamic ?
This is exactly what I’m saying: whenever someone seemingly stronger, or plain stronger, than Sanji joins, Oda immediately gives Sanji the edge afterwards. This is what I believe will happen with Yamato joining, even if she is currently stronger.
Can we agree on something: if Sanji does end up being stronger than Yamato next arc, will you admit that you were being biased against Sanji ? (Since you seem to deny the existence of the concept of M3). Of course, I’ll admit I was wrong about Sanji being a constant in the M3 if he ends up staying weaker than Yamato.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jun 4, 2022)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> You think that the Oden hype that includes being 2nd division commander to WB, and a member of Rogers crew, voice of all things, almost 2 shotting Kaido doesn't beat standing next to Rayleigh?
> 
> I know Rayleigh is pretty cool, but I think you need a little bit more than being next to him in a panel to trump the ridiculous Oden hype.


Rayleigh stalled an Admiral in old age, that trumps almost defeating Kaido 20 years ago. He was compared to Whitebeard, Oden never got that. He was the "Dark King" of the Roger Pirates, and his trusted right hand man.

Standing shoulder to shoulder with him is pretty good hype and doesn't lose to Oden.


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## Potato Salad (Jun 4, 2022)

Right now  hell nah. Next arc or so he will switch the scale in powers and have Sanji fight the second strongest, Yamato the 3th. Just look at the trends with  strong new characters in the past.


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## Conxc (Jun 4, 2022)

Almageste said:


> Well I actually agree with you regarding your reasoning in the first part of your text: You say that Sanji was weaker than Jinbei pre upgrade (I believe he was comparable to Jinbei then, but whatever), and that he got stronger after the upgrades. Why is that then ? Oda randomly chose to have the “cook” gain the edge over the ex-warlord who tied with Ace in the past and was impressive against big mom ? Or maybe..I dunno ? Because he felt he couldn’t break the M3 dynamic ?


Jinbe being surpassed was always a given. I don't believe that Jinbe grew much, if at all, between MF and current Wano arc. He's an aging veteran. That's the big difference between him and Yamato. Yamato is 28 years old with all three forms of Haki, including AdCoC, the strongest form of Haki. We've been told that Haki is the ultimate power. SHe's also got a DF that she hasn't been able to train due to having Kairoseki cuffs on for the last 20 years. She's in for DF gains also. She's got a lot going for her, and a lot to improve on now that she is free to train her Mythical Zoan DF.


Almageste said:


> This is exactly what I’m saying: whenever someone seemingly stronger, or plain stronger, than Sanji joins, Oda immediately gives Sanji the edge afterwards. This is what I believe will happen with Yamato joining, even if she is currently stronger.
> Can we agree on something: if Sanji does end up being stronger than Yamato next arc, will you admit that you were being biased against Sanji ? (Since you seem to deny the existence of the concept of M3). Of course, I’ll admit I was wrong about Sanji being a constant in the M3 if he ends up staying weaker than Yamato.


Some people believe that Robin was stronger. Personally, I don't think so, but I might have to go back and read Alabasta. People think Franky was stronger due to his performance against *base *Luffy. I don't think that was the case. I don't think anyone would argue that Brook was stronger. Then there's Jinbe, who was stronger, but he didn't officially join until the arc that Sanji was meant to get a big powerup. Again, that should've been a given due to Jinbe being an aging vet. Yamato is way different than those cases. Again, she's got a ton of potential, and has already been shown to be well above Sanji, and she's apparently joining this arc, unless Luffy trolls her.

Bias? I wouldn't say I'm being bias here simply because I don't subscribe to poor arguments like m3, wings, etc. I simply choose to follow the feats and portrayal if available, and we have plenty to compare there. There is no argument that can be made for Sanji in that regard.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jun 4, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Rayleigh stalled an Admiral in old age, that trumps almost defeating Kaido 20 years ago. He was compared to Whitebeard, Oden never got that. He was the "Dark King" of the Roger Pirates, and his trusted right hand man.
> 
> Standing shoulder to shoulder with him is pretty good hype and doesn't lose to Oden.


I know Rayleigh is cool. I don't put scopper on his level just for standing next to him.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Skaddix (Jun 4, 2022)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> I know Rayleigh is cool. I don't put scopper on his level just for standing next to him.



Clearly the gap between *SILVER*s Rayleigh and S*copper *Gaban is the difference in value between Silver and Copper.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Empathy (Jun 4, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Why would you assume that?



Oden was Primebeard’s FM before joining Roger’s crew. He’s stronger than Gaban, and clearly held in higher esteem with greater hype.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jun 4, 2022)

Skaddix said:


> Clearly the gap between *SILVER*s Rayleigh and S*copper *Gaban is the difference in value between Silver and Copper.


What are their exchange rates atm?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jun 4, 2022)

Empathy said:


> Oden was Primebeard’s FM before joining Roger’s crew. He’s stronger than Gaban, and clearly held in higher esteem with greater hype.


I'm pretty sure Scopper was about to school Oden back then. He got a lot stronger since then and learned adCoC.


TrolonoaZoro said:


> I know Rayleigh is cool. I don't put scopper on his level just for standing next to him.


You know why he's standing next to him though. They've got the Zoro/Sanji portrayal

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jun 4, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> I'm pretty sure Scopper was about to school Oden back then. He got a lot stronger since then and learned adCoC.
> 
> You know why he's standing next to him though. They've got the Zoro/Sanji portrayal


So one fights with younkou, is a supernova, has Adcoc, the best blocking feat in the series for a few seconds, Island long attacks etc

And the other stands next to him? Yeah. That's a W for for Yamato.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shunsuiju (Jun 4, 2022)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> So one fights with younkou, is a supernova, has Adcoc, the best blocking feat in the series for a few seconds, Island long attacks etc
> 
> And the other stands next to him? Yeah. That's a W for for Yamato.





> D: If Zoro and Sanji had a serious fight, who would win? Zoro beat Mr. 1, so... he's stronger, right...?
> 
> O: Whoa! That was surprising... I thought you said "If Zoro and Sanji had a dick fight"...You have to be careful what you say. Someone might hear something totally wrong... Okay, see you next time!!


It ain't that deep bro.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jun 4, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> It ain't that deep bro.


If we use jokes to dismiss tiers, then yamato automatically wins because she's a woman. 
There is no salvation.


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## Vinsmoke31 (Jun 4, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Anyways it’s luffy >>>>>> Yamato >> Zoro >= sanji >>> jinbei


Fixed it for you

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## A Optimistic (Jun 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> People think Franky was stronger due to his performance against *base *Luffy.



Luffy being in base is an excellent point that I didn't notice when @MrPopo made the claim that franky > luffy

how do you rebuttal to that popo?


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## Shunsuiju (Jun 4, 2022)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> If we use jokes to dismiss tiers, then yamato automatically wins because she's a woman.
> There is no salvation.


Sanji can hit women in this scenerio.

Plenty of women have been treated terribly in this manga.


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## Jad (Jun 4, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> Featwise, Yamato is more impressive than either Zoro or Sanji, tbh.


I'm not even a Zoro fan and I know that isn't right. Dude nailed a permanent injury on Kaido.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Lewd 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 5, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Luffy being in base is an excellent point that I didn't notice when @MrPopo made the claim that franky > luffy
> 
> how do you rebuttal to that popo?


Gears wasn't a thing when franky fought Luffy   

Anyway you're missing the point  franky was introduced as someone that could have easily replaced Sanji but like with what happened Jinbe Oda confirmed that Sanji is the #3. 

The same thing will happen with Yamato


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## A Optimistic (Jun 5, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Gears wasn't a thing when franky fought Luffy



prove it  



MrPopo said:


> Anyway you're missing the point  franky was introduced as someone that could have easily replaced Sanji but like with what happened Jinbe Oda confirmed that Sanji is the #3.
> 
> The same thing will happen with Yamato



nope, you're missing the point

robin was stronger when she joined

and so is yamato

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MrPopo (Jun 5, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> prove it


Luffy fights franky in chapter 336 and gears are only introduced in chapter 387 


A Optimistic said:


> nope, you're missing the point
> 
> robin was stronger when she joined
> 
> and so is yamato


Nope they're weaker if they truly were stronger then Oda will delay them joining the crew like he did with Jinbe


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## Baroxio (Jun 5, 2022)

Jad said:


> I'm not even a Zoro fan and I know that isn't right. Dude nailed a permanent injury on Kaido.


I rate extended 1v1 combat with matching blows and counters as greater than a single unanswered blow that leaves a scratch but gets a statement of respect.


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## A Optimistic (Jun 5, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Luffy fights franky in chapter 336 and gears are only introduced in chapter 387



luffy came up with gears after the defeat with aokiji, which means he already knew it when fighting franky

which means that luffy was stronger than franky

which means that you're wrong  





MrPopo said:


> Nope they're weaker if they truly were stronger then Oda will delay them joining the crew like he did with Jinbe

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Jad (Jun 5, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> I rate extended 1v1 combat with matching blows and counters as greater than a single unanswered blow that leaves a scratch but gets a statement of respect.


Are you going to forget that Kaido feigned seriousness, as he always wanted Yamato to be Shogun. Surely that should weigh in your decision making as to why Yamato seemingly looked good against him.


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## MrPopo (Jun 5, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> luffy came up with gears after the defeat with aokiji, which means he already knew it when fighting franky
> 
> which means that luffy was stronger than franky
> 
> which means that you're wrong


The one piece community has future sight now ?

Early w7/EL franky looks alot more impressive than Sanji and that they he could replace Sanji in m3 

The very same thing is happening with Yamato  

Oda only made Jinbe join the crew in wano instead of fi or wci just cause


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## A Optimistic (Jun 5, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> The one piece community has future sight now ?
> 
> Early w7/EL franky looks alot more impressive than Sanji and that they he could replace Sanji in m3
> 
> The very same thing is happening with Yamato



you're deflecting

was franky stronger than gears luffy in water 7? yes or no  



MrPopo said:


> Oda only made Jinbe join the crew in wano instead of fi or wci just cause



who said anything about jinbei? i've told you 50 times robin was stronger when she joined


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## MrPopo (Jun 5, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> you're deflecting
> 
> was franky stronger than gears luffy in water 7? yes or no


This is what I originally stated your gotcha doesnt work 


MrPopo said:


> During little garden Robin was part of the crew there's another arc where Sanji and Zoro got stronger. *If we look at just w7 franky is stronger than Zoro and Sanji and then El comes and proves that wrong.*






A Optimistic said:


> who said anything about jinbei? i've told you 50 times robin was stronger when she joined


Because if Robin was truly stronger than Sanji then her joining would have been delayed like Jinbe


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## MrPopo (Jun 5, 2022)

Conxc said:


> This chapter 724, the chaptyer where Law saved Sanji from an appearance on a tshirt. He quite explicitly tells them to go to Zou. There was never any intention to return to DR for him.


Are you even reading my posts? I posted the panels please refer back to post #220 the panels that disprove this 


Conxc said:


> The one where Sanji was clowned and had to leave the country, by Oda's design. The times that Sanji has faced the number 3 post-ts is in the minority. Whether you want to acknowledge how Oda did things outside of the saga climaxes, these things still are relevant to his portrayal. Even then, in the past, you tried to argue that the entirety of post-ts OP was apart of the Yonkou saga for the sake of argument...


Yet Oda makes the wings statement and has Sanji fight Queen in wano  that's good enough portrayal 


Conxc said:


> Notice how Doffy actually had to use Armament Hardening to defend against Luffy's attack, and he certainly wasn't smiling while doing so. Comparing Luffy and Sanji's performances against Doffy is crazy. Luffy wasn't food for Doffy as Sanji was, hence why he couldn't just do away with him as easily.


Power scalling smiling  and yes Doffy was smiling when he whooped Luffy ass. The first Luffy encounter against Doffy mirrors Sanji's how is that hard to tell. 


Conxc said:


> That's not a good argument. Not to mention that Zoro actually had his arc fight by this point. Sanji got no diffed without having an arc fight. I'd hardly call that the same.


You're using Sanji getting clowned by Doffy to downplay Sanji's importance. The zoro example is the same thing. 


Conxc said:


> *Wings statement could mean many things, not just what you want top push.*


Then why is Sanji a wing and not someone like Nami? 


Conxc said:


> Not necessarily, but he's clearly portrayed Sanji as less important over the ts.


The guy had his own didicated arc Luffy saying he can't be pirate king without him, how sanji is worth over a 1000 and being called one of the wing of  the pirate king, goes onto to beat Queen Kaidos #3 and your going to say Sanji's is protrayed as less ? 


Conxc said:


> Keep up with the excuses. Again, Vergo didn't show any sign of taking him seriously. No bamboo, no armament Hardening. Come on dude.


For someone that moans about people ingoring feats and portrayal you sure love to ingore panels. 

Sanji didnt even use dj agaisnt Vergo except for the first time he encounters vergo. Following the same reasoning you've stated for Vergo Sanji wasnt taking Vergo seriously no dj no high end techniques

Reactions: Winner 1


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## KBD (Jun 5, 2022)

@MrPopo drowning in copium 

It's going to be alright

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 5, 2022)

KBD said:


> @MrPopo drowning in copium
> 
> It's going to be alright


Post Wano will shine on me


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## KBD (Jun 5, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Post Wano will shine on me


Kozuki Oden is allowed to be stronger than a swordsman or a chef  

It's like with Roger of WB. Oden was WBs bro, the rest were his sons. 

Ergo, Yamabro> curlybrows little baby and marimo child


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## KBD (Jun 5, 2022)

Also Jinbe might still be > Sanji

He wasn't even pressed in his fight. It's just that instead a standard game of power rankings we are playing "Guess who is the racist in this crew" with Jinbei's matchups.


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## MrPopo (Jun 5, 2022)

KBD said:


> Also Jinbe might still be > Sanji
> 
> He wasn't even pressed in his fight. It's just that instead a standard game of power rankings we are playing "Guess who is the racist in this crew" with Jinbei's matchups.


Jinbe got frankyed


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## KBD (Jun 5, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Jinbe got frankyed


He has feats against BM, what does Sanji have?


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## Kishido (Jun 5, 2022)

KBD said:


> Also Jinbe might still be > Sanji
> 
> He wasn't even pressed in his fight. It's just that instead a standard game of power rankings we are playing "Guess who is the racist in this crew" with Jinbei's matchups.



Of course. Franky said he has power left to fight as well.


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## MrPopo (Jun 5, 2022)

KBD said:


> He has feats against BM, what does Sanji have?


Blocked her attack with Luffy in wci


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## KBD (Jun 5, 2022)

MF Jinbei was already > Wano Sanji   

To think that beating Lueen is better than the Haki and endurance that took on Akainu and BM, is clearly nothing but a product of a demented M3 fan grasping at straws.


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## Corax (Jun 5, 2022)

KBD said:


> Also Jinbe might still be > Sanji
> 
> He wasn't even pressed in his fight. It's just that instead a standard game of power rankings we are playing "Guess who is the racist in this crew" with Jinbei's matchups.


No,he isn't. He had a weaker opponent and he had no power ups in this arc. I think it was the reason why Oda waited till he end of WCI/beginning of Wano. Before it Jinbei was for sure stronger than Sanji.


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## HaxHax (Jun 5, 2022)

Every time

Reactions: Funny 5 | Winner 3


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## Almageste (Jun 5, 2022)

Zoro and Sanji defeat Admirals:

Normal people : “They both looked so cool!”
Zoro stans : “Sanji’s admiral is much weaker because Sanji is a cook/simp/doesn’t clang/CoC like Zoro
Sanji stans : “Why do we always have to defend Sanji ?!”


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## Conxc (Jun 5, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Are you even reading my posts? I posted the panels please refer back to post #220 the panels that disprove this


They don’t…the panel I posted with Law telling them to go to Zou happened *before *the panels you posted. From that point on, Zou was where they were headed. The BMPs intercepted them on their way to Zou.


MrPopo said:


> Yet Oda makes the wings statement and has Sanji fight Queen in wano  that's good enough portrayal


Not good enough to completely ignore what happened before. All portrayal matters and the way that Oda has handled Sanji post-ts should tell you something.


MrPopo said:


> Power scalling smiling  and yes Doffy was smiling when he whooped Luffy ass. The first Luffy encounter against Doffy mirrors Sanji's how is that hard to tell.


Again, Doffy used more. He obviously wasn’t taking Luffy lightly. Their performances against him are like night and day.


MrPopo said:


> You're using Sanji getting clowned by Doffy to downplay Sanji's importance. The zoro example is the same thing.


No, it’s not. I already stated the glaring difference. 


MrPopo said:


> Then why is Sanji a wing and not someone like Nami?


Don’t know. Doesn’t really change much.


MrPopo said:


> The guy had his own didicated arc Luffy saying he can't be pirate king without him, how sanji is worth over a 1000 and being called one of the wing of  the pirate king, goes onto to beat Queen Kaidos #3 and your going to say Sanji's is protrayed as less ?


Yes, the guy in this Shonen manga that didn’t get a commander fight, but struggled with vets, while the MC takes two commander fights. You and I both know that would never happen to Zoro.


MrPopo said:


> For someone that moans about people ingoring feats and portrayal you sure love to ingore panels.
> 
> Sanji didnt even use dj agaisnt Vergo except for the first time he encounters vergo. Following the same reasoning you've stated for Vergo Sanji wasnt taking Vergo seriously no dj no high end techniques


“Sanji didn’t even use DJ on Vergo except for that time he used it” The problem is it didn’t do Jack shit. You can say it. That argument doesn’t work in this context because Vergo was shown to be superior while Sanji had his leg cracked. Vergo overpowered Sanji at his own game with no armament Hardening. Definitely didn’t even need to bring out his signature bamboo. He stooped down to Sanji’s “weapons” and was winning. Stop the cope


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## Kishido (Jun 5, 2022)

Friendly reminder that Monet and CC gave Luffy problems. Yeti Brothers owned Zoro.

And do not forget that Carrot spanked Zoro as well

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Kishido (Jun 5, 2022)

Ahhh best answer... I don't know what wings mean so it isn't the obvious answer


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## Chip Skylark (Jun 5, 2022)

Kishido said:


> Friendly reminder that Monet and CC gave Luffy problems. Yeti Brothers owned Zoro.
> 
> And do not forget that Carrot spanked Zoro as well


Desperate times call for desperate arguments?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MrPopo (Jun 5, 2022)

Conxc said:


> *They don’t…the panel I posted with Law telling them to go to Zou happened before the panels you posted. From that point on, Zou was where they were headed. The BMPs intercepted them on their way to Zou.
> 
> Not good enough to completely ignore what happened before. All portrayal matters and the way that Oda has handled Sanji post-ts should tell you something.*
> 
> ...


Wow I don't even think you read panels I post your statements get debunked by them

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Kishido (Jun 5, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Desperate times call for desperate arguments?


No stupid arguments are used for stupid arguments. 
PS 
Pre Skip Luffy blocked Senogku


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## Conxc (Jun 5, 2022)

Kishido said:


> Friendly reminder that Monet and CC gave Luffy problems. Yeti Brothers owned Zoro.
> 
> And do not forget that Carrot spanked Zoro as well


Arguments like this are par for the course from the Curlies.


MrPopo said:


> Wow I don't even think you read panels I post your statements get debunked by them


If you say so.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 5, 2022)

Almageste said:


> Zoro and Sanji defeat Admirals:
> 
> Normal people : “They both looked so cool!”
> Zoro stans : “Sanji’s admiral is much weaker because Sanji is a cook/simp/doesn’t clang/CoC like Zoro
> Sanji stans : “Why do we always have to defend Sanji ?!”



_Can we really say that Sanji is stronger because he defeated an Admiral when Jimbe and Yamato low-mid diffed Dalmatian and Strawberry ?   _

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Chip Skylark (Jun 5, 2022)

This one can easily be challenged directly.

A character like Law that is unquestionably superior to Sanji was completely unable to react to Kaido's "Thunder Bagua". To the point where you can see that Law didn't even have time to adjust his stance before being struck by the attack.



Which is just one of the many examples that demonstrate the gap between Kaido and characters of Sanji's level.

And as if to completely shatter the notion that they stood anywhere relative to the tier Sanji is on, Yamato then went on to clash with that same attack shortly afterwards.



Throughout the arc we've had other distinct reminders of where someone like Sanji stands relative to the Yonko through Big Mom's treatment of Queen and Kaido's humiliation of Post WCI Luffy.





To argue that Sanji keeps up with Yamato is to argue that he goes well beyond Queen and beginning of Wano Luffy's strength despite his clear struggle against the YC2, and the clear disadvantage in haki that he's maintained against BoW Luffy.

You can't just replace Sanji with Yamato and expect curly brows to hold off Kaido in the same way that Yamato did because Sanji has no ability that would allow him to compensate for his overall disadvantage in strength & haki. Even Post Udon Luffy was quickly disposed of the moment that Kaido focused exclusively on him despite his proficiency in advanced haki applications. 

The support for Sanji is so far estranged from the reality that it's not hard at all to tell that arguments in favor of him aren't based around the two characters performance whatsoever.

Which is why you won't find any arguments about how Sanji competes with AdvCoC. Just fluff about how Oda will pull something out of his ass to allow Sanji to clear that massive gap he established simply because Yamato joined the crew. As if Yamato won't be allowed to progress as a crew member. As if Oda has some obligation to maintain Sanji's #3 spot even though he didn't do the same for Scopper.

And really, it's been clear that Oda intended to have Yamato join since he asked to join around the time of his introduction. If Oda also intended to keep Sanji above Yamato then he wouldn't have made Yamato that powerful to begin with.

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1 | Winner 5


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 5, 2022)

_Reasons why Sanji struggled against Queen :

1. For 90% of the fight he had none of his Wano PU. Current Sanji low diffs that version of himself.

2. For another 8% of the "fight" he refused to use his first power up to fight against Queen after Queen broke his sword on his neck/cheek.

For the last 2% of the fight Sanji was able to do lasting damage as well as destroy Queens limbs with only a couple of attacks with his regular old DJ fire, forcing his 1,3+ bil opponent into hidding as he already had no more answers to Sanjis speed and AP.

After that he proceeds to demolish Queen with one Ifrit Jambe combo, which he should be able to currently use as well as he was previously using DJ due to his new body.

Queen is an ancient zoan + modified body. Among non top tiers theres hardly any who are meant to be bigger tanks, and Sanji gave him a 2 minute speed run once he actually started fighting him.

Fresh current Sanji is obviously much stronger than Queen and in a rematch he'd utterly dominate him start to finish. Sanji is moving into the next arc easily as one of the strongest non top tiers in the verse at bare minimum   _

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 3 | Optimistic 2


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 5, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> T As if Yamato won't be allowed to progress as a crew member. As if Oda has some obligation to maintain Sanji's #3 spot even though he didn't do the same for Scopper.



_You have absolutely no clue how Scopper actually compares with Oden. You just know that Oden is impressive, and then go and decide that Scopper can't be as impressive without any actual evidence of that being the case._



> And really, it's been clear that Oda intended to have Yamato join since he asked to join around the time of his introduction. If Oda also intended to keep Sanji above Yamato then he wouldn't have made Yamato that powerful to begin with.



_Or Oda intends Zoro and Sanji to be incredibly impressive as Luffy's Wings, and Yamato being that strong only further showcases how powerful the two are meant to be going forward.


You are doing the same old dance we did every time before. It's always that the new guy/girl has something going for him that no one else did before, so surely this time we can shove the No.3 guy down a notch right ?

Robin has a crazy bounty almost as high as Crocodile and disarmed the whole crew and destroyed Alabasta's strongest fighter

Jimbe is a big name in the Pirate World, one of the Shichibukai, with higher bounty than Zoro or Sanji  and he did this and that against Top Tiers 


There where threads after threads about how Oda is clearly abandoning Sanji as a fighter, not giving him 1 vs 1 fights post time skip, and the writting was on the wall for Jimbe to supposedly replace him.

And arguably they actually had a much stronger case. They certainly were not pushing this after an arc where Oda doubled down on Zoro's and Sanji's positions in the crew to make sure that 1000 + chapters into the story no one get's the wrong idea. 

You even acknowledge Oda pushed the whole Stars and Wings narrative this arc for Zoro and Sanji knowing full well that he intends for Yamato to join the crew.


Yamato is strong. Maybe Yamato is stronger right now. Maybe it can be to an extent ambiguous for a while. But we will get to the vs Blackbeard Pirates fights or the Final War, and there will be two SH's that rise above all others and are clearly matched against the No.2 and No.3 from the opponents side, and it's going to be the same two SH's who took on Mr.1 and Mr.2 or Kaku and Jabra or King and Queen  _

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Chip Skylark (Jun 5, 2022)

1. For 90% of the fight Queen held back as well.

2. There was no fight at this point. Sanji was just running.

3. For the last bit of the fight Sanji was still struggling as well. Let's not conveniently leave out that part. 





I mean, you really can't act like Sanji was casually dismantling Queen when he was literally lying on the ground wheezing after he broke free of Queen's "Winch" attack.



Nevermind how Queen was distracted by the geisha when Sanji landed his Ifrit attacks.



Sir Curlyhat said:


> _You have absolutely no clue how Scopper actually compares with Oden. You just know that Oden is impressive, and then go and decide that Scopper can't be as impressive without any actual evidence of that being the case._


__


Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Yamato is strong. Maybe Yamato is stronger right now. Maybe it can be to an extent ambiguous for a while. But we will get to the vs Blackbeard Pirates fights or the Final War, and there will be two SH's that rise above all others and are clearly matched against the No.2 and No.3 from the opponents side, and it's going to be the same two SH's who took on Mr.1 and Mr.2 or Kaku and Jabra or King and Queen  _


Unfortunately none of that has happened yet. Until then unless you got an actual argument for Sanji's superiority you just accept gotta accept the facts as they are now

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## RayanOO (Jun 5, 2022)

They are close right now and around King level 

But soon enough Sanji > Yamato

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 5, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> This one can easily be challenged directly.
> 
> A character like Law that is unquestionably superior to Sanji was completely unable to react to Kaido's "Thunder Bagua". To the point where you can see that Law didn't even have time to adjust his stance before being struck by the attack.
> 
> ...


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## Conxc (Jun 5, 2022)

RayanOO said:


> They are close right now and around King level
> 
> But soon enough Sanji > Yamato


Yamato > King > Sanji.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Mylesime (Jun 5, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Nevermind how Queen was distracted by the geisha when Sanji landed his Ifrit attacks.



The Geisha had no impact on the outcome of the fight.
Queen could not locate Sanji and was waiting for the SH to run out of stamina.
Sanji could literally announce which body part he was targetting.
Oda tied up two plots points together.
It was clumsy, but that.had nothing to do with Queen's defeat.
Queen was powerless once Sanji used his speed mode while Sanji could attack him.

When Sanji went all out , it was obvious he was significantly stronger than Queen at the end. So his earlier struggles mainly don't mean much.
What you did is akin to using Luffy's earlier feats against Kaido (pre power ups) as a point of reference rather than his Nika's abilities.....

It doesn't represent how both fighters ultimately compare since you almost ignored the Power up in your analysis.

That's without taking into account that Queen is a strong commander that brought Big Mom to Kaido and was able to keep up with Marco and King.
There is a discrepency between characters performances vs Top tiers analysis. A clear bias.

Which coupled with other commanders performances vs top tiers ( Joz, Vista , Marco.... Jinbei) let us deduce that Sanji should be able to stall a top tier, unless you're claiming that all these characters are also significantly stronger.
Truth be told Stalling a top tier is not exceptional  for the strongest high tiers.







Chip Skylark said:


> __




You don't know anything about Gabban.
Anything.
You can't rank him, let alone use that to establish a ranking within the SHs indirectly.
That's baseless.

It's as useful as using Kong or Ryukogyu in  an admiral  ranking.
Utterly baseless which is contradictory for someone  who value feats so much.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 5, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> 1. For 90% of the fight Queen held back as well.
> 
> 2. There was no fight at this point. Sanji was just running.
> 
> ...



_Queen was much stronger than Sanji however and did not get nearly as damaged or tired from the encounter with a much weaker Sanji. Sanji literally had every bone in his body broken at one point.

Queen capitalized on how the surprise reveal of his brothers abilities impacted Sanji emotionally to land a couple of hits. We outright see Sanji going through flashbacks of his brothers seeing them.

After a big lightning attack and one of Queen's strongest physical attacks Sanji needed a second to get back up sure, but Queen actually paid with the complete destruction of the limb he used to attack Sanji.

The Geisha was only there to give closure to Sanji's emotional struggle.  Sanji outright blitzed Queen with absolutely no chance for Queen to react even while the two were staring at eachother.  Post PU Sanji simply moves too fast and hits too hard for Queen to do anything about it at any given time Sanji decides to go on the offensive. Queen can't even perceive the attacks let alone do anything about them.


What's with that reaction when it comes to Scopper and Oden ? You are acting as if we were given a direct comparison between the two where Oden was stated to be his superior. We have no such thing. You just think that's likely to be the case, and discuss it as a given when it isn't._

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Chip Skylark (Jun 5, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> You don't know anything about Gabban.
> Anything.
> You can't rank him, let alone use that to establish a ranking within the SHs indirectly.
> That's baseless.
> ...


We shouldn't have to question whether or not Oden was superior to Gabban for the same reason we shouldn't have to question Oden's standing relative to the other Roger pirates like Sunbell or Millet Pine. That a character with little hype or portrayal worthy of note can rival a character constantly put in the same conversation as legends isn't a natural assumption. Far from it. Just like we wouldn't question whether or not Yassop or Lime Juice can go blow for blow with Ryokugyu just because we haven't seen any of these characters fight.

These are just some basic things that anyone should be able to acknowledge unless they have some agenda riding on some weird alternative. Like you guys with this idea that the #3 spot in a crew should be unflinching.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 5, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> We shouldn't have to question whether or not Oden was superior to Gabban for the same reason we shouldn't have to question Oden's standing relative to the other Roger pirates like Sunbell or Millet Pine. That a character with little hype or portrayal worthy of note can rival a character constantly put in the same conversation as legends isn't a natural assumption. Far from it. Just like we wouldn't question whether or not Yassop or Lime Juice can go blow for blow with Ryokugyu just because we haven't seen any of these characters fight.
> 
> These are just some basic things that anyone should be able to acknowledge unless they have some agenda riding on some weird alternative. Like you guys with this idea that the #3 spot in a crew should be unflinching.



We should absolutely question any take on a featless character.
You're talking about agendas when your entire argument centered around Gaban is literally baseless?
You have agendas too, you believe Yamato is superior to Sanji, and that Oden is superior to Gaban. Based on those two takes, you built a demonstration , which logically speaking is absolutely baseless.

The characters you used to compare with Gaban also show your agenda....

Worse than that you don't know how exactly they compare. They could be close or not. Which is the entire point, the only relevant data.

So, yes, this is pure assumption on your part, which hold no weight in a debate.
We don't know anything about Gaban.
Like we don't know anything about Ryukogyu,  which is why ranking them is useless.
They have no feats.
Of course , Ryukogyu or Gaban are stronger than Don Krieg or Morgan, but as soon as the gaps decrease and we're talking about other admirals or the strongest commanders, with a small margin for error, we simply can't rank them.
If we're being honest,  nobody can acurately rank Oden, Gaban, Beckman, Lucky Roo for example......
Most of them being featless. You can throw Sunbell in there if you wish. Same principle.

I'm not saying anything about the Gaban/Oden dynamic..... because i can't. I don't know how they compare, nor how big is the gap, one way or the other.
Let alone use that for the SHs.
The Gaban argument show exactly why feats are not that important really for many......
Pure contradiction. 


The only reason people make those assumptions about Gaban and not Sunbell, or Millet Pine is entirely agenda driven. Because of the parallels with Sanji.
Circular reasoning based on assumptions.
Sanji will be weaker than Yamato because Gaban was weaker than Oden because Sanji will be weaker than Yamato....


With so little data about Gaban, we simply can't accurately evaluate him, let alone use it as a point of reference.
We should absolutely question any take based on Gaban supposed power level since it's baseless..... like we should if it was based on Sunbell or Millet Pine.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 5, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> We shouldn't have to question whether or not Oden was superior to Gabban for the same reason we shouldn't have to question Oden's standing relative to the other Roger pirates like Sunbell or Millet Pine. That a character with little hype or portrayal worthy of note can rival a character constantly put in the same conversation as legends isn't a natural assumption. Far from it. Just like we wouldn't question whether or not Yassop or Lime Juice can go blow for blow with Ryokugyu just because we haven't seen any of these characters fight.
> 
> These are just some basic things that anyone should be able to acknowledge unless they have some agenda riding on some weird alternative. Like you guys with this idea that the #3 spot in a crew should be unflinching.



_If Scopper is just meant to be Sunbell or Millet Pine why are you trying to compare him with Sanji and use him to justify Sanji losing his No.3 spot after 1000+ chapters just because you fancy the new gal in town ?  

Btw, when you previously argued that Oda's portrayal in this arc accounted for Yamato joining as he knew that was going to happen since Yamato's reveal you shot yourself in the foot. It's basically an admission that Oda reinforced Zoro and Sanji as the No.2 and No.3 in preparation for Yamato's arrival   _


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jun 5, 2022)

Oden/Scopper hype doesn't matter, Scopper totally could be as hyped as Oden? Lmao.

Sanji getting free hits on distracted Queen is somehow irrelevant, even though in fight Sanji admits that he was getting overwhelmed by comboing Queen and on panel was getting dominated by Queen literally in the same Chapter.

Yamato fighting with hybrid Kaido using a fighting technique that is literally only reserved for top tiers is irrelevant.
Lol.

It is literally impossible to dismiss so much of the manga. If you believe that Sanji always rises to the top, then just make that argument. As of now it is insane.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 4


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## Mylesime (Jun 5, 2022)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> Yamato fighting with hybrid Kaido using a fighting technique that is literally only reserved for top tiers is irrelevant.
> Lol.













TrolonoaZoro said:


> It is literally impossible to dismiss so much of the manga.


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jun 5, 2022)

You really want to go down the route of showing "low lights" when you're capping for Sanji? Come on, dude.


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## Mylesime (Jun 5, 2022)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> You really want to go down the route of showing "low lights" when you're capping for Sanji? Come on, dude.



You, complaining about capping, and "low lights"?


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jun 5, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> You, complaining about capping, and "low lights"?


Yes. Showing Ulti not getting one shotted doesn't do anything against Yamato's feat of 1 v 1 Hybrid Kaido. While we can find examples of Sanji low lights that are not even about not meeting expectations, lmao.


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## Mylesime (Jun 5, 2022)

TrolonoaZoro said:


> Yes. Showing Ulti not getting one shotted doesn't do anything against Yamato's feat of 1 v 1 Hybrid Kaido. While we can find examples of Sanji low lights that are not even about not meeting expectations, lmao.



What about her AP, and the absolute effectiveness of her advanced CoC tough?

Yamato is strong, no one is denying that.
Some are simply acting like Sanji isn't anywhere near her, which is like you say.... pure cap.



If Ulti could get up after that sneak attack (something you ,honestly obviously, describe as her not being OS , as usual.....)
If Kinemon could survive Kaido's CoC attacks....
If Joz could fight Ao Kiji and stall him.
If Queen could bring Big Mom to Kaido 
Any honest reader can deduce the obvious conclusions....


So please, stop with disingenuous summaries, while talking about agendas, delusions or lies when even admitting that these two characters are on the same general tier is too much for you.
It's one thing to be full of it, but doing so while virtue signaling is absolutely laughable and quite ironic.

Both stances are defensible,  only one side acts like that fact is asinine so far.....


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## Empathy (Jun 5, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> What about her AP, and the absolute effectiveness of her advanced CoC tough?
> 
> Yamato is strong, no one is denying that.
> Some are simply acting like Sanji isn't anywhere near her, which is like you say.... pure cap.
> ...



Yamato was wearing seastone handcuffs when he fought Ulti, no?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TrolonoaZoro (Jun 5, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> What about her AP, and the absolute effectiveness of her advanced CoC tough?
> 
> Yamato is strong, no one is denying that.
> Some are simply acting like Sanji isn't anywhere near her, which is like you say.... pure cap.
> ...


Right, so hypothetical people saying that Sanji isn't nowhere near Yamato somehow becomes my argument? lol
The votes are public, dude.


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## Mylesime (Jun 5, 2022)

Empathy said:


> Yamato was wearing seastone handcuffs when he fought Ulti, no?



She was.


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## Grinningfox (Jun 5, 2022)

This Sanji shit is pathetic  for real

But it’s par for the course in a series where people refuse to just update when new information comes out 

Nope

They have to have been right for years

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Empathy (Jun 5, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> She was.



So what’s the point of downplaying Yamato by saying Ulti shook off his TB, easily then?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mylesime (Jun 5, 2022)

Empathy said:


> So what’s the point of downplaying Yamato by saying Ulti shook off his TB, easily then?



Did not downplay Yamato, nor stated that Ulti shook it off easily.
As far as the reason why Yamato's feats and abilities are being discussed...... i'm sure you don't need my help to figure it out.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 5, 2022)

and that was pre-hybrid too

Zoro > Yamato > Law > Kid
Sani ? Yamato > Law > Kid


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## Empathy (Jun 5, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Did not downplay Yamato, nor stated that Ulti shook it off easily.





Mylesime said:


>


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## Mylesime (Jun 5, 2022)

@Empathy :


Still don't see where i downplayed Yamato nor where i claimed Ulti shrugged it off easily......
This is no rocket science, my post is perfectly understandable in relation with the post i was answering to......


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## Empathy (Jun 5, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> @Empathy :
> 
> 
> Still don't see where i downplayed Yamato nor where i claimed Ulti shrugged it off easily......



What’d you bring it up for then?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Sablés (Jun 5, 2022)

Mylesime said:


>


Are you trying to hype Yamato with this feat? 

If you're not. I'm not sure why you'd post this. Not only is she in base, but she's also wearing seastone cuffs. Even Queen could mock Luffy when he was wearing one. On top of that, Ulti was actually incapacitated. Yamato heads off with Luffy while Ulti de-powers into base. Zoans have regeneration so Ulti getting back up after isn't relevant. She got back up from BM's Maser Canon and that's a way more dangerous form of attack.

I don't understand you people or this insecurity. This has nothing to do with Sanji. Yamato is very arguably the strongest fighter in the raid after Luffy and the Yonko. Sanji has no feats to contend. Zoro is likely weaker a well now that I think about it.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Mylesime (Jun 5, 2022)

Empathy said:


> What’d you bring it up for then?



To highlight that several far weaker characters than Sanji survived advanced CoC hits ( Kinemon included) ,and that coupled up  with comparable fighters feats against top tiers ( Vista, Joz, Marco..... unless one claims that they all body Sanji too).
All in all, those elements put Yamato on a tier with the strongest commanders.






Sablés said:


> Are you trying to hype Yamato with this feat?
> 
> If you're not. I'm not sure why you'd post this. Not only is she in base, but she's also wearing seastone cuffs. Even Queen could mock Luffy when he was wearing one. On top of that, Ulti was actually incapacitated. Yamato heads off with Luffy while Ulti de-powers into base. Zoans have regeneration so Ulti getting back up after isn't relevant. She got back up from BM's Maser Canon and that's a way more dangerous form of attack.
> 
> I don't understand you people or this insecurity. This has nothing to do with Sanji. Yamato is very arguably the strongest fighter in the raid after Luffy and the Yonko. Sanji has no feats to contend. Zoro is likely weaker a well now that I think about it.



It's natural to use a character's feats to evaluate him/her.
It was also a sneak attack.
Let's not ignore the advantages if we claim to be objective.

I'm not downplaying Yamato imo, she's strong, undisputable. Thinking Sanji is stronger, doesn't mean ones consider Yamato as weak....

She has arguments for her, however i disagree .Law and Kid have clearly better feats and portrayal during this Raid.
Difference of opinions, don't necessarly mean downplay.

Irrelevant point, ad hominem. Anyway, there is.no insecurity imo regarding Yamato, people,.myself included are just convinced that she'll be weaker than Sanji.
Having such an opinion and discussing it is no sign of insecurity imo. You're free to think whatever the fuck you want.
I don't see the point bringing up supposed intents in the discussion ....


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## Sablés (Jun 5, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> It was also a sneak attack.


Yes it was.
What's this have to do with Ulti's durability or Sanji?
She got K.O'd.


Mylesime said:


> .Law and Kid have clearly better feats and portrayal during this Raid.


Do they? I distinctly remember Law getting blitzed by Thunder Bagua.
Law and Kid only have feats of beating BM together. They stood no chance against a serious BM alone. That much is clear.


Mylesime said:


> Difference of opinions, don't necessarly mean downplay.


True.


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## Mylesime (Jun 5, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Yes it was.
> What's this have to do with Ulti's durability or Sanji?
> She got K.O'd.



I'm sure i don't truly need to elaborate on why a target being occupied dealing with another opponent, surprised and unable to defend herself has an impact on the effectiveness and how we rate an attack.......

I think that this clearly shows that Yamato would need significant effort to put down Sanji.




Sablés said:


> Do they? I distinctly remember Law getting blitzed by Thunder Bagua.



@TrolonoaZoro  was talking about "low lights" just above.......
Prometheus successfully tagged Law too. Apoo did a number on Luffy and Zoro.
We take all the characters feats, put into context. For Yamato, or anyone else.....
Law's feats speak for themselves imo.



Sablés said:


> Law and Kid only have feats of beating BM together. They stood no chance against a serious BM alone. That much is clear.



Yamato stood no chance either against a serious Kaido. That much was clear too.

To be honest i don't think the gaps between these characters are that significant.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sablés (Jun 5, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> I'm sure i don't truly need to elaborate on why a target being occupied dealing with another opponent, surprised and unable to defend herself has an impact on the effectiveness and how we rate an attack.......
> 
> I think that this clearly shows that Yamato would need significant effort to put down Sanji.


Your logic makes zero sense.

You talk about sneak attacks, which don't lower durability (Ulti could protect herself by blocking with her arms for example but her natural toughness wouldn't change), but you ignore that Yamato is in base and nerfed to ridiculous lengths by seastone.

This is not a blow against Yamato. The very best move for you here is to disregard the comparison as unreliable due to various factors and move on.


Mylesime said:


> @TrolonoaZoro  was talking about "low lights" just above.......
> Prometheus successfully tagged Law too. Apoo did a number on Luffy and Zoro.
> We take all the characters feats, put into context.
> Law's feats speak for themselves imo.


Yes, those feats are getting blitzed by Thunder Bagua, and he has no feats to overturn that. Are we playing a game of cherry-picking?


Mylesime said:


> Yamato stood no chance either against a serious Kaido.


False. Kaido expressed intent to kill in his hybrid mode and Yamato stalled him solo for a good amount of time.
She's not his equal, but that was clearly more than what Law could manage. His awakening doesn't raise his stats and its useless if he can't follow movements.


Mylesime said:


> To be honest i don't think the gaps between these characters are that significant.


Neither do I.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheTwelfthKenpachi (Jun 5, 2022)

I have Yamato slightly over Zoro for now, so of course I'm going with Oden V2 for that one.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Shunsuiju (Jun 5, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> This one can easily be challenged directly.
> 
> A character like Law that is unquestionably superior to Sanji was completely unable to react to Kaido's "Thunder Bagua". To the point where you can see that Law didn't even have time to adjust his stance before being struck by the attack.
> 
> ...


The double down


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## Mylesime (Jun 5, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Your logic makes zero sense.
> You talk about sneak attacks, which dont lower durability, but you ignore that Yamato is in base and nerfed to ridiculous lengths by seastone. This is not a blow against Yamato. The very best move or you here is to disregard the comparison as unreliable due to various factors and move on.



I respectfully disagree.
I never ignored anything. You're putting words into my mouth.
You do on the other hand.
I never said that Ulti's durability was affected, nor that Yamato was not restricted.

You're the one ignoring Ulti's vulnerability.
It was a sneak attack, which has an impact on how we evaluate that attack.

Dismissing it entirely? We might as well stop taking part in those discussions.
Parameters are never exactly the same.
We evaluate. We may disagree about the conclusions , which is fine.



Sablés said:


> Yes, those feats are getting blitzed by Thunder Bagua, and he has no feats to overturn that. Are we playing a game of cherry-picking?



We're not cherry picking anything.
Quite the contrary, we take everything into account.
Which gives a more accurate estimation.
And another fact, a character being tagged by an attack on one instance does not mean he could not have avoided it under any circumstances.
Kaido being tagged by the scabbards or the RT5 is a prime example.....




Sablés said:


> False. Kaido expressed intent to kill in his hybrid mode and Yamato stalled him solo for a good amount of time.


False.
If Kaido wanted Yamato dead , she would be.
He restricted himself during most of the Raid. Had he used Future Sight, or his ultimate move with his fire,most of them would  be dead.



Sablés said:


> She's not his equal, but that was clearly more than what Law could manage.



I disagree.
Law's feats are superior imo.
He was part of a tag team, even tough he had to help out a nerfed Kid, but he also inflicted far more damages to a similar opponent.



Sablés said:


> Neither do I.



Cool.


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## Sablés (Jun 5, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> You're the one ignoring Ulti's vulnerability.


???


Mylesime said:


> It was also a sneak attack.





Sablés said:


> *Yes it was.*





Mylesime said:


> Dismissing it entirely? We might as well stop taking part in those discussions.


No, You "dismiss" it, because it doesn't help your claim. It is a non-sequitur. What does this have to do with Sanji?
Ulti didn't tank the hit. She got knocked out. We don't know if her properly defending would change anything.
We don't know if seastone getting removed would have overturned the difference even if Ulti had been fully on-guard.
Then there's hybrid to bolster Yamato's power considerably.

Hilarious number of asterisks that does _nothing _for Sanji, who you are arguing in favor of. You created this example and are now telling everyone that "Ulti was off-guard so it doesn't count". Why the hell did you bring it up then?



Mylesime said:


> And another fact, a character being tagged by an attack on one instance does not mean he could not have avoided it under any circumstances.


I agree, so...prove that Law has the feats to react to Thunder Bagua?
Because you know, that's a necessary requirement in this argument, otherwise no legitimate blitzes exist in this setting, as you can magically argue a character could do better the next time despite them lacking feats.



Mylesime said:


> If Kaido wanted Yamato dead , she would be.


Are you calling both Kaido AND Yamato liars? For what purpose?


Mylesime said:


> He restricted himself


Irrelevant.
Fighting to kill and fighting seriously =/= Using 100% of his power or all available resources.

Using that same logic, I would have to argue that BM NEVER took Law and Kidd seriously, seeing as she didn't use ACoC.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## A Optimistic (Jun 5, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Because if Robin was truly stronger than Sanji then her joining would have been delayed like Jinbe



what kind of circular logic is this?

your claim is that sanji is always the 3rd strongest. I then claim that robin was stronger than Zoro/sanji when she joined. Your rebuttal is that robin can’t be stronger than Zoro/sanji because she would have joined later.

that’s exactly what circular logic is and that’s a fallacy 

 

I’ll be honest, it looks like you’re just letting your love for sanji get in the way of what’s actually shown in the manga. I mean next chapter could show Yamato beating up 10 top tiers at once and I’m sure you would be posting about how sanji is still stronger than her lol. You’re basically just going to disregard anything shown in the manga just to maintain some headcanon about sanji always being the 3rd strongest.

yamato is stronger than both Zoro and sanji my dude, deal with it. The new monster trio is Yamato, Zoro and sanji. Leave your obsession with luffy/Zoro/sanji being the monster trio in the past

Reactions: Winner 5 | Optimistic 1


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## Sablés (Jun 5, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> what kind of circular logic is this?
> 
> your claim is that sanji is always the 3rd strongest. I then claim that robin was stronger than Zoro/sanji when she joined. Your rebuttal is that robin can’t be stronger than Zoro/sanji because she would have joined later.
> 
> ...


And they say the Zoro/Sword legion are the ones who will never see reason or objectivity.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## A Optimistic (Jun 5, 2022)

Damn did I just scroll up and see sanji bros bringing up Yamato’s feats while she was in seastone cuffs? Oh my you guys are down bad

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Tsukuyomi (Jun 5, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Damn did I just scroll up and see sanji bros bringing up Yamato’s feats while she was in seastone cuffs? Oh my you guys are down bad


They be down bad for sure cuz.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Dunno (Jun 5, 2022)

Luffyfan38 said:


> Oh look at the polls votes, how shocking.
> 
> Why is Sanji so down played here?


Just for the record, what diff does Sanji give Luffy?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ludi (Jun 5, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> what kind of circular logic is this?
> 
> your claim is that sanji is always the 3rd strongest. I then claim that robin was stronger than Zoro/sanji when she joined. Your rebuttal is that robin can’t be stronger than Zoro/sanji because she would have joined later.
> 
> ...


Preach it


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## Shunsuiju (Jun 5, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Damn did I just scroll up and see sanji bros bringing up Yamato’s feats while she was in seastone cuffs? Oh my you guys are down bad


I see you haven't voted in this thread yet.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Sablés (Jun 5, 2022)

Yamato also has an advantage over the all other raid stars; She never reached her limit against Kaido. Zoro/Law/Kidd/Sanji all drained themselves of stamina for one reason or another. The first three, largely because they were expending their energy on high-intensity moves just to keep up with their opponents. Not only can Yamato fight on the level of ACoC and awakening without draining herself, she's a zoan. Battles of attrition are her specialty, and she was never pushed to exploit that

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MrPopo (Jun 5, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> what kind of circular logic is this?
> 
> your claim is that sanji is always the 3rd strongest. I then claim that robin was stronger than Zoro/sanji when she joined. Your rebuttal is that robin can’t be stronger than Zoro/sanji because she would have joined later.
> 
> ...


I'll admit the Jinbe example was bad.


Sanji was still stronger 


Even when Robin joined the crew Oda had the m3 dynamic going the next chapter


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## Mylesime (Jun 5, 2022)

Sablés said:


> No, You "dismiss" it, because it doesn't help your claim. It is a non-sequitur. What does this have to do with Sanji?



I'm not dismissing anything.
Sanji and Yamato never fought, and likely never will. All we have are indirect comparisons.




Sablés said:


> Ulti didn't tank the hit. She got knocked out. We don't know if her properly defending would change anything.



And she recovered fairly quickly.
It wasn't comparable at all to what happened to Luffy at Kuri.

We don't do anything, we speculate regarding most of these match ups.
You're free to believe that a sneak attack ,or an attack properly defended would cause the same damages , i disagree.



Sablés said:


> We don't know if seastone getting removed would have overturned the difference even if Ulti had been fully on-guard.



True.
We don't.
We speculate.




Sablés said:


> Then there's hybrid to bolster Yamato's power considerably.


Also true.




Sablés said:


> Hilarious number of asterisks that does _nothing _for Sanji, who you are arguing in favor of. You brought up this example and are now telling everyone that "Ulti was off-guard so it doesn't count". Why the hell did you bring it up then?



Again, i never  said that..... it would be asinine, hence your latest question.
We're evaluating Yamato and her performance.
That wasn't the only element i brought up either.


-*I also brought up Kinemon surviving an advanced Coated Blow from Kaido.

-And several commanders ability to stall top tiers (something entirely ignored, for obvious reasons....)*

Which led me to form an opinion.
Again, it goes without saying, Sanji and Yamato have not fought, we're using indirect elements.




Sablés said:


> I agree, so...prove that Law has the feats to react to Thunder Bagua?
> Because you know, that's a necessary requirement in this argument otherwise, no legitimate blitzes exist in this setting, as you can magically argue a character could do better the next time despite them lacking feats.



Law has not demonstrated the feats to react to "Thunder Bagua".

That move was hard to dodge even for Luffy and his Future Sight. He did endure it tough.
Kaido's "Thunder bagua " was effective against Yamato she recognized it herself. She wasn't close at all, from her own admission.

Prove that Yamato can inflict comparable damages to a comparable opponent.

Law has superior feats to Yamato in some areas too.




Sablés said:


> Are you calling Kaido a liar? For what purpose?



No. I'm just basing my judgement on what they did. Kaido was not going all out
.... which he did against Luffy, melting the island horn with a passive ability....
He did not use Future Sight either. 
Unless you're claiming that Yamato can also hang with Gear 5....



Sablés said:


> Irrelevant.
> Fighting to kill and fighting seriously =/= Using 100% of his power.
> 
> Using that same logic, I would have to argue that BM NEVER took Law and Kidd seriously, seeing as she didn't even bother to use ACoC.



Big Mom used her lifespan against these two.
Good luck arguing that it is a sign of someone taking it easy.


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## Lmao (Jun 5, 2022)

Wano Yamato is stronger than both Zoro and Sanji, that's not a badge of shame for either of them, her solo feats vs Kaido and AdCoC > Zoro/Sanji's - it is what it is.

They probably surpass her next arc depending on what direction Oda takes with her.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 5, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Even Queen could mock Luffy when he was wearing one.  think about it.



_Queen took off Luffys sea stone cuffs before he casually caught his fist and flipped his whole body around mocking him   _


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## Sablés (Jun 5, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> Sanji and Yamato.never fought, and likely never will. All we have are indirect comparisons.


Then use better or clearer examples that work for your stance. Not something that you can't even begin to quantify on any level that helps Sanji.


Mylesime said:


> And she recovered fairly quickly.


She's a Zoan. She recovered quickly from BM's Maser Canon. That's what they do.
Doesn't change the fact that she was knocked out.


Mylesime said:


> We're evaluating Yamato and her performance.


Okay, if you're saying that we're bringing it up for Yamato's sake...what does it do for this match? Does Sanji get anything out of it?


Mylesime said:


> Kaido's "Thunder bagua " was effective against Yamato she recognized it herself.


Yamato clashing with TB is a mix of speed/defense/AP all together.


Mylesime said:


> Law has superior feats to Yamato in some areas too.


That he does. Only unlike Yamato, Law's feats were majorly executed in the convenience of a 2 vs 1.


Mylesime said:


> Big Mom used her lifespan against these two.


And Kaido transformed into Hybrid and was using named techniques against Yamato while expressing intent to kill.
If you think that's not being serious, I have no idea what to tell you.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 5, 2022)

_Yamato no longer had her cuffs on when she was ready to use her Hybrid to fight against Sasaki right ? _


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## Conxc (Jun 5, 2022)

I don't think that anyone that has Zoro > Yamato or Yamato > Zoro is necessarily wrong. IMO Zoro is stronger, but we can actually compare feats and portrayal between these two characters. With Sanji all you see is "m3" or "wings" and all that other nonsense. No real argument exists there. Nothing he did against Queen compares to Zoro and Yamato's superior feats against Yonkou.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Mylesime (Jun 5, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Then use better or clearer examples that work for your stance. Not something that you can't even begin to quantify on any level that helps Sanji.



I'm free to use whatever example, i deem pertinent.
And you're free to think whatever the fuck you want about it.
And vice versa.




Sablés said:


> She's a Zoan. She recovered quickly from BM's Maser Canon. That's what they do.
> Doesn't change the fact that she was knocked out.



Still allow us to make evaluations.
I've seen other stronger Zoans, more exceptional going down for good after other finishers.....
This gives us an idea of Yamato's AP in those circumstances.




Sablés said:


> Okay, if you're saying that we're bringing it up for Yamato's sake...what does it do for this match? Does Sanji get anything out of it?



Dude, we're doing indirect comparisons.
Sanji vs Yamato is basically a succession of indirect comparisons.



Sablés said:


> Yamato clashing with TB is a mix of speed/defense/AP all together.



I agree.
She has some stats superior to Law's.
However overall i think what he's done is more impressive.



Sablés said:


> That he does. Only unlike Yamato, Law's feats were majorly executed in the convenience of a 2 vs 1.



True.
But he inflicted far more damages on the other hand.
And there were several instances where they were impeded during the fight.



Sablés said:


> And Kaido transformed into Hybrid and was using named techniques against Yamato while expressing intent to kill.
> If you think that's not being serious, I have no idea what to tell you.



I did not say he was not serious.
You're again putting words into my mouth.
I said he did not want to kill her. Which he would have if he wanted to since her childhood.
Yamato herself recognized that she had no chance vs her father.
Luffy is the only member of the Alliance that had a chance 1 vs 1. After his awakening.


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## Sablés (Jun 5, 2022)

Mylesime said:


> I'm free to use whatever example, i deem pertinent.


Then the onus is on you to explain their relevance. You...are not doing this.


Mylesime said:


> I've seen other stronger Zoans, more exceptional going down for good after other finishers.....


We have no reason to believe those zoans regenerate as fast as Ulti unless you bring feats. We've seen her get up from BM. What does Sanji have by comparison?

You keep saying that all we have are indirect comparisons for Sanji and Yamato, but...you do know that even those need to establish a base to make them worth using right?


Mylesime said:


> I said he did not want to kill her,


Therefore Yamato (who knows her father's strength) is a liar, and Kaido (who knows his strength and intention) is also a liar.

Well if that's the hill you want to die on, I can't stop you.


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## Mylesime (Jun 5, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Then the onus is on you to explain their relevance. You...are not doing this.



Which i did.
A feat that gave us some datas to evaluate Yamato's AP. More sensible than using Gaban as reference which many did, you will admit i hope.




Sablés said:


> We have no reason to believe those zoans regenerate as fast as Ulti unless you bring feats. We've seen her get up from BM. What does Sanji have by comparison?



Yeah sure no reason at all.

But obviously we have reasons to believe that stronger Zoans, more exceptional creatures have less durability ?

Anyway :
We've see Queen or King, tank, endure and  recover many times.
Sanji recovered from a broken spine like it was nothing.
We speculate, and evaluate different characters stats.

You're free to suggest that Ulti shits on Queen, the cyborg brachiosaurus, or Sanji when it comes to durability and recovery.
I disagree.




Sablés said:


> You keep saying that all we have are indirect comparisons for Sanji and Yamato, but...you do know that even those need to establish a base to make them worth using right?



Which i did.




Sablés said:


> Therefore Yamato (who knows her father's strength) is a liar, and Kaido (who knows his strength and intention) is also a liar.
> 
> Well if that's the hill you want to die on, I can't stop you.



Yamato did not lie.
She aknowledged plenty of times she had no shot against her father and that she would ultimately die. It was even the title of a chapter .


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## A Optimistic (Jun 5, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> I see you haven't voted in this thread yet.



nrver noticed the thread until now

I voted for M3 because I’m confident Zoro and sanji will surpass Yamato. They are luffy’s wings and will become his strongest fighters


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## Shunsuiju (Jun 5, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> nrver noticed the thread until now
> 
> I voted for M3 because I’m confident Zoro and sanji will surpass Yamato. They are luffy’s wings and will become his strongest fighters


 I thought Zoro already surpassed Yamato


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## A Optimistic (Jun 5, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> I thought Zoro already surpassed Yamato



he can’t maintain his advanced CoC as long as she can, so no I don’t think Zoro surpassed her

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shunsuiju (Jun 5, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> he can’t maintain his advanced CoC as long as she can, so no I don’t think Zoro surpassed her


Ok so it's a time limit issue

What does Sanji need?


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## A Optimistic (Jun 5, 2022)

Shunsuiju said:


> Ok so it's a time limit issue
> 
> What does Sanji need?



better feats

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Heart Over Blade (Jun 6, 2022)

Yamato didn't start using aCoC until Kaidou. Except for possibly that one Bagua that put Ulti to sleep in one shot. Simply because she never needed to waste advanced haki on weaklings and fodder.

All of those other fights before Kaidou were just warm ups for Yamato. Her not ending those fights quick enough while nerfed or holding back was about as significant as Zoro struggling against Gifters or Apoo in determining their real strength.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ezekjuninor (Jun 6, 2022)

Kishido said:


> cabbards did more damage to Kaidou than Yamato


Even if this was true, the scabbards would turn Sanji into a punching bag.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gledania (Jun 6, 2022)

convict said:


> let alone Zoro who is top tier


 

Where the fuck did that come from ?

If by that you mean he gives extrem diff to the like of Akainu or big mom then no he's not


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## ShWanks (Jun 6, 2022)

Sanji is too fast. He doesn't need to continually go full speed nonstop cuz Yamato can't use Invisibility to surprise attack. He can pick & choose exact moments when to use it combined with his great observation Haki that shocked a future sight user.

Sanji extreme diffs.


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## Sablés (Jun 6, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Sanji is too fast.


Her speed is equal to Kaido's fastest.
What are you even talking about?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShWanks (Jun 6, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Her speed is equal to Kaido's fastest.
> What are you even talking about?


That was tired Hybrid Kaido no Future sight. Yamato could perceive him without Future Sight perfectly & even keep up. Sanji is much faster than that Kaido. Kaido even went back into Base to show just how much stamina he had lost.

Only Future Sight Kaido & G5 Luffy compare to Sanji at his fastest in Wano Arc.


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## Sablés (Jun 6, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> That was tired Hybrid Kaido





ShWanks said:


> Sanji is much faster than that Kaido.


Sanji's best speed feat is blitzing Queen
Kaido's is blitzing _LAW (and G4 Luffy)_. Yamato matched that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShWanks (Jun 6, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Sanji's best speed feat is blitzing Queen
> Kaido's is blitzing _LAW (and G4 Luffy)_. Yamato matched that.


No his best feat is outpacing observation Haki which no other character in the verse has done.


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## Sablés (Jun 6, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> No his best feat is outpacing observation Haki which no other character in the verse has done.


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## ShWanks (Jun 6, 2022)

Sablés said:


>


Stop trying scale people off Sanji feat. He's a speed character so that stat is exclusive to him until other's showcase similar speed. Only Future Sight Kaido & G5 Luffy scale to his speed during Wano arc.


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## Heart Over Blade (Jun 6, 2022)

First time I see a thread where it's mostly Sanji fans arguing against everyone else's general perception. . Usually it happens to the legion instead


T.D.A said:


> Yamato isn’t beating Scabbards all at once


Based on vastly outperforming the Scabbards, she could. Absolutely nothing indicated she cant. She has enough power to match some of Kaidou's  named attacks like Boro breath, with her own mid tier attack. Meanwhile Scabbards were being dropped by generic non-aCoC club swings and only reason they could survive Boro breath at all is thanks to fire cutting style. One Bagua each puts them all to sleep. Kaidou didn't even need aCoC or Hybrid to clown them. While aCoC + Hybrid didn't put down Yamato. While Kaidou still hasn't gone all out against Yamato, that applies to everyone he fought before aCoC G4 Luffy, and he still held back much more against Scabbards than aCoC Luffy and Yamato

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ShWanks (Jun 6, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> First time I see a thread where it's mostly Sanji fans arguing against everyone else's general perception.
> 
> Based on vastly outperforming the Scabbards, she could. One Bagua each puts them all to sleep. Kaidou didn't even need aCoC or Hybrid to clown them. While aCoC + Hybrid didn't put down Yamato. While Kaidou still hasn't gone all out against Yamato, that applies to everyone he fought before aCoC G4 Luffy, and he still held back much more against Scabbards than aCoC Luffy and Yamato


Crowd Mentality = Facts good to know

And that's not how that works. Kaido got hit many times by Scabbards. Yamato doesn't have his durability so no. She'd get torn apart by the Scabbards easily. Kaido's durability I'd the only reason he even survived their onslaught. You either need Future Sight Kaido's speed or durability to solo the Scabbards.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Heart Over Blade (Jun 6, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Crowd Mentality = Facts good to know


Never said that, but it takes a certain level of insecurity to interpret it that way.


ShWanks said:


> And that's not how that works. Kaido got hit many times by Scabbards. Yamato doesn't have his durability so no. She'd get torn apart by the Scabbards easily. Kaido's durability I'd the only reason he even survived their onslaught. You either need Future Sight Kaido's speed or durability to solo the Scabbards.


Let's be real. He only got hit many times because he let them. He could've fodderized them in a minute if he wanted to. He held back more against them than against anyone who fought him after. So that argument doesn't work. Yamato is built like a tank. She could more than survive their onslaught in the measly amount of time it takes to Bagua each of them in the face. Considering she survived against a more serious Kaidou for several times the duration they survived, and she was still standing after. Even worse when you consider Bagua and her Namuji Hyoga can hit multiple opponents.


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## ShWanks (Jun 6, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Never said that, but it takes a certain level of insecurity to interpret it that way.
> 
> Let's be real. He only got hit many times because he let them. He could've fodderized them in a minute if he wanted to. He held back more against them than against anyone who fought him after. So that argument doesn't work. Yamato is built like a tank. She could more than survive their onslaught in the measly amount of time it takes to Bagua each of them in the face. Considering she survived against a more serious Kaidou for several times the duration they survived, and she was still standing after. Even worse when you consider Bagua and her Namuji Hyoga can hit multiple opponents.


You brought it up for no reason stop it. The implication was obvious...

Yamato is NOT built like Kaido. They pierced him so she's definitely getting a mortal wound. Saying she can solo the Scabbards is tandem to saying she can solo the All-Stars lol no just no


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## TheWiggian (Jun 7, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 1


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## Inferno Jewls (Jun 7, 2022)

Yamato said she was joining the crew, that just means 1 thing 

Sanji mid diffs Yamato

Reactions: Funny 4


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## TheTwelfthKenpachi (Jun 7, 2022)

Yeah I agree with ShWanks, I think that the Scabbards are very underrated.
In my opinion, Yamato should be able to put up a great fight but would ultimately lose, most likely. The Scabbards are 9 characters who roughly range from vet/YC4 to YC3+/-YC2 and have great coordination, since they have been fighting together for a really long time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Heart Over Blade (Jun 7, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> You brought it up for no reason stop it. The implication was obvious...


You are welcome to make all the guesses you like. But others might come to different conclusions about why I said that, because there isn't just one possibility here. In the end you're wrong about why I said that and if you think differently you are welcome to try and prove it.


ShWanks said:


> Yamato is NOT built like Kaido. They pierced him so she's definitely getting a mortal wound. Saying she can solo the Scabbards is tandem to saying she can solo the All-Stars lol no just no


Except there's  a wide gap between the all stars as a team and scabbards as a team. All stars would beat them decisively and I think there's hardly anyone who thinks the same about the reverse. They have no answer to King's long range sniping and Queen's invisibility. Scabbards only made minor dents to Kaidou's total HP, despite him choosing not to instantly fodderize them. They are glass cannons who got put to sleep by non-aCoC unnamed club swings. One Bagua puts each of them to sleep. So she doesn't need to be built like Kaidou to beat them.  Even then she is one of the tankiest characters in the alliance and possibly the most tanky after G5 Luffy and Marco. aCoC unlocked Luffy only lasted 30 minutes before he took his aCoC to Yonkou levels.  

Yamato outperforming the scabbards was just obvious.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mihawk (Jun 7, 2022)

No matter who wins, we all lose.

Then again, I imagine it is quite the opposite for the Zoro Legion

Reactions: Funny 1


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## God sl4yer (Jun 13, 2022)

Venom said:


> Assuming that Yamato actually joins: End of next arc Sanji>Yamato.  Currently Yamato>Sanji.
> 
> If Yamato doesn't join then Yamato>Sanji until proven otherwise.


This


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## ShWanks (Jun 14, 2022)

Yamato is the Oden of this crew so therefore imo I'm upgrading her to 2nd strongest in crew. I never realized she stalled a Yonko solo better than Base Conquerors Luffy. She fought Kaido till both dropped their hybrid forms.


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## Germa 66 (Jun 15, 2022)

Still Sanji. Now and forever


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## ShWanks (Jun 15, 2022)

Germa 66 said:


> Still Sanji. Now and forever


After you showed me Sanji fighting Advanced Conquerors Haki Zoro I'm starting to believe Sanji is stronger again

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Germa 66 (Jun 15, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> After you showed me Sanji fighting Advanced Conquerors Haki Zoro I'm starting to believe Sanji is stronger again


I’m happy to know I’ve gotten someone to start walking on the path of light

Reactions: Like 1


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## Germa 66 (Jun 15, 2022)

@ShWanks start investing in Sanjicoin now. My boy is gonna destroy the Red Line and discover the All-Blue

Reactions: Funny 1


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