# Gaara vs Kakuzu



## Larcher (Feb 6, 2013)

Gaara vs Kakuzu
Battleground:Gaara vs kimimaru
Knowledge:Both full
Restrictions:None
Mindset:IC 
Distance:50m 
Who wins what difficulty and why.


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## xigloox (Feb 6, 2013)

Gaara with ease. Kakuzu does not have strong enough Jutsu to pressure Gaara's sand. Nor does he have the speed to keep himself out of trouble with sneak attacks via sand.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2013)

xigloox said:


> Gaara with ease. Kakuzu does not have strong enough Jutsu to pressure Gaara's sand. Nor does he have the speed to keep himself out of trouble with sneak attacks via sand.


Sand arms wouldn't work, Kakuzu can simply punch the sand off his feet before they grapple him completely. He busts concrete casually and kicks Kakashi through trees, sand arms are tapped off. 

More importantly, Kakuzu clearly has the capacity to pressure Gaara's sand in a grassy landscape, his elemental ninjutsu far surpasses anyone in the Akatsuki.

With full knowledge Kakuzu releases his hearts immediately and begins spam bombing Gaara. This is a horrible match up as a full powered Kakuzu has water and lightning hearts spitting directly through Gaara's sand defense and likely landing a kill shot seconds into the bout. 

Gourd sand does nothing at start as Kakuzu can simply react and punch through any attack at start with 50m of separation whilst releasing the water and lightning hearts preparing a pressured shock bomb at Gaara's face, a face that has no sand to defend as he just sent the gourd sand toward Kakuzu.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 6, 2013)

I don't think Kakuzu punching the sand off of his feet is a very effective way to deal with the sand. Though, I don't think that would be an issue. With his masks, he can bombard Gaara from multiple different angles and eliminate him before he can grind up enough sand to become a threat to Kakuzu. Raiton: Gian is key here, since even with a lot of sand, it's going to be difficult blocking two concentrated beams of lightning.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2013)

> I don't think Kakuzu punching the sand off of his feet is a very effective way to deal with the sand.




Not effec tive?


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## xigloox (Feb 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Sand arms wouldn't work, Kakuzu can simply punch the sand off his feet before they grapple him completely. He busts concrete casually and kicks Kakashi through trees, sand arms are tapped off.
> 
> More importantly, Kakuzu clearly has the capacity to pressure Gaara's sand in a grassy landscape, his elemental ninjutsu far surpasses anyone in the Akatsuki.
> 
> ...



Sand is not a door, a tree, or Kakashi. Punching and kicking it would do nothing if the sand is trying to capture you. It would just wrap around his fists/legs and restrain them.

Kakuzu has not shown the ability to release masks and attack in the same instant. He needs time to do both. So i'll ignore your fanfic.

Further: Gaara has never in the course of the manga left himself defenseless. He always performs both offense and defense simultaneously and part of his defense is automatic. The simple fact of the matter is Kakuzu can't counter being hit with sand nor can he get through gaara's sand defense.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2013)

> Sand is not a door, a tree, or Kakashi. Punching and kicking it would do nothing if the sand is trying to capture you. It would just wrap around his fists/legs and restrain them.


Wrap around his fists with full knowledge and 50m separation? 

HIGHLY unlikely.

Logically, Concrete is harder and heavier than sand, he busts it casually. 

Logically, petty sand arms made from the soil in the ground that Kakuzu already knows Gaara can manipulate are kicked and tapped off by this power house. Do look above if you require scans proving such. 



> Kakuzu has not shown the ability to release masks and attack in the same instant. He needs time to do both. So i'll ignore your fanfic.


He surely does. He rips his robe off, releases the hearts while punching any half-assed gourd/sand arm attack Gaara starts with and now there's a massive water/lightning bomb scaling toward him. 



> Further: Gaara has never in the course of the manga left himself defenseless. He always performs both offense and defense simultaneously and part of his defense is automatic. The simple fact of the matter is Kakuzu can't counter being hit with sand nor can he get through gaara's sand defense.


I already displayed how he counters sand attacks, he punches and kicks through them like butter. 

I already displayed how he defeats a sand defense that is virtually limited to a gourd of sand that would already be needed to attack Kakuzu. 

Water- Wets and heavies sand making it useless.
Lightning- The weakness of earth techniques, turns sand into glass and/or pierces it casually. 
Wind/Fire- Blows Gourd sand to shit along with Gaara standing behind it. 
Kakuzu- Shunshin Blitzing with Earth Heart Concrete Busting Punches/Kicks owning sand defense. 

Automatic defense- Invalid. There is no sand other than his gourd for his dead mom to protect him with in this battlefield.

Result: Dead Gaara.


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## xigloox (Feb 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Wrap around his fists with full knowledge and 50m separation?
> 
> HIGHLY unlikely.
> 
> ...



Gaara's dad was captured with full knowledge and a skillset specifically to counter gaara's sand. Gaara has also captured a long list of people using his sand with knowledge of the sand's abilities or not. Kakuzu is not fast enough to evade the sand.

So did you not read the part where sand is not a door, a tree, or Kakashi? It is not concrete either. He can not punch a wave of sand, the wave of sand will capture him in that process. Sand will capture Kakuzu in any physical interaction he has with it and once Sand is on Kakuzu the battle is over. regardless, If Madara's Susanoo and A's Kick can not break through Gaara's sand then neither can a much weaker Kakuzu.

Water: Completely featless and not arguable. Water being a weakness to gaara's sand: Invalid. It is a corrosive oil formed by the Mizukage that destroys sand. Water's affect on gaara's sand is featless and not arguable.

Fire: Casually blocked, no effect.

Lightning: Possibility of piercing some sand. Possibility of it being based into the ground and rendered useless. Possibility of Gaara using minerals in the ground to base the lightning attack.

Wind: Casually blocked, no effect.

Gaara can make mountains of sand near instantly and with absolutely no effort as proven back in part 1. This is part 2. Sand volume is not an issue.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2013)

> Gaara's dad was captured with full knowledge and a skillset specifically to counter gaara's sand. Gaara has also captured a long list of people using his sand with knowledge of the sand's abilities or not. Kakuzu is not fast enough to evade the sand.


Gaara's dad was captured with sand arms only used by Shukaku, he was surprised that Gaara used them. He had full mobility of his upper body and arms, and thus countered it because so.

Kakuzu's arms are mobile, he knows Gaara can use sand arms, and thus he punches the sand off his legs just like A's dad did, releases his hearts and begins blasting at Gaara. 



> So did you not read the part where sand is not a door, a tree, or Kakashi? It is not concrete either. He can not punch a wave of sand, the wave of sand will capture him in that process. Sand will capture Kakuzu in any physical interaction he has with it and once Sand is on Kakuzu the battle is over. regardless, If Madara's Susanoo and A's Kick can not break through Gaara's sand then neither can a much weaker Kakuzu.


Did you not read the part where he busts concrete casually?

A wave of sand? Where is Gaara getting a wave of sand? If the first punch doesn't blast it back, he punches again, and again, and again, until he shunshins out. You have no argument of capturing Kakuzu with mere gourd sand. I posted scans of his power scale, he destroyed a temple with a single punch, he kicks Kakashi 20 meters through trees. What the fuck is gourd sand going to do? 



> Water: Completely featless and not arguable. Water being a weakness to gaara's sand: Invalid. It is a corrosive oil formed by the Mizukage that destroys sand. Water's affect on gaara's sand is featless and not arguable.


Water being a weakness to gaara's sand: Completely valid. "Gaara's sand" is no different from the sand on a beach that is virtually transformed into mud. You are retarded if you think water is ineffective. 

Featless water is an utter cop out. Nothing suggests the water heart would be weaker than any of his other ridiculous elemental hearts. 



> Fire: Casually blocked, no effect.


Fire/Wind: Obliterates Gourd Sand. 



> Lightning: Possibility of piercing some sand. Possibility of it being based into the ground and rendered useless. Possibility of Gaara using minerals in the ground to base the lightning attack.


Lightning: Turns Gourd sand into glass, Wind/Fire obliterate Gaara afterwards. Chance of piercing the sand indefinitely and ending Gaara. 

Lightning/Water: Gaara dies. 



> Wind: Casually blocked, no effect.


Wind/Fire: Obliterates Gaara's sand. 



> Gaara can make mountains of sand near instantly and with absolutely no effort as proven back in part 1. This is part 2. Sand volume is not an issue.


Gaara has 2 seconds to decide how he wants to die.

He can begin grinding sand, then suddenly realizes he was already blasted 13 times by mega bombs beforehand.

I already showed Kakuzu's physical strength capabilities, if you want to continue this onslaught, I'd be happy to post the blasting range/power of his hearts and Kakuzu's shunshin speed capabilities. Just say the word, and the embarrassment will commence.


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## egressmadara (Feb 6, 2013)

No restrictions? They're fighting on a stage that's advantageous to Gaara's sand abilities?
Gaara lolcrushes him.


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## xigloox (Feb 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> *Gaara's dad was captured with sand arms only used by Shukaku*, he was surprised that Gaara used them. He had full mobility of his upper body and arms, and thus countered it because so.
> 
> Kakuzu's arms are mobile, he knows Gaara can use sand arms, and thus he punches the sand off his legs just like A's dad did, releases his hearts and begins blasting at Gaara.
> 
> ...



I got that far before I had to stop. Scans of this happening? Apparently we're reading different manga.


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## wooly Eullerex (Feb 6, 2013)

egressmadara said:


> No restrictions? *They're fighting on a stage that's advantageous to Gaara's sand abilities?*Gaara lolcrushes him.



No, U R curiously mastaken. this is a neutral location...

Kakuzu wins. his jutsu R too powerful & flexible for Gaara to actually mount an offensive. The kage eventually succumbs to the offensive pressure.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2013)

xigloox said:


> I got that far before I had to stop. Scans of this happening? Apparently we're reading different manga.


Not surprising.
It's not the Shukaku, it's Gaara"
"His hands have gotten stronger"
"Gaara, where is the Shukaku?"

It's clear he thought the Shukaku was the only one capable of using sand arms. 

More importantly, if you give up on a debate because of that you generally are a waste of my time.


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## Dman (Feb 6, 2013)

Gaara definitely. Kakuzu can't come back from being buried and compacted under a sea of sand; nor could his elemental beings. There's also no way Kakuzu could get past Gaara's defense


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## xigloox (Feb 6, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Not surprising.
> It's not the Shukaku, it's Gaara"
> "His hands have gotten stronger"
> "Gaara, where is the Shukaku?"
> ...



Proving exactly why debating with you has always been so fruitless. You claimed that: *Gaara's dad was captured with sand arms only used by Shukaku* which i asked you to prove and you did not. 

Gaara's dad initially thought that the sand manipulation was being done by the 1 tail. Upon seeing that it is gaara he commented on gaara's sand has gotten stronger(Since he knows it is gaara now).


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## Magician (Feb 6, 2013)

Gaara does the same thing he did to Kimimaro...which is bury him in a sea of sand(although Kakuzu's Iron Skin may help to prevent that )

Gaara's sand is too numerous and Gaara is too creative with it for Kakuzu to counter. Gaara wins handidly.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2013)

> Proving exactly why debating with you has always been so fruitless. You claimed that: *Gaara's dad was captured with sand arms only used by Shukaku* which i asked you to prove and you did not.


Lol cheap shot much. 

Indeed I did prove it, all three scans prove he was captured by sand arms only used by Shukaku as he thought it was him. 



> Gaara's dad initially thought that the sand manipulation was being done by the 1 tail. Upon seeing that it is gaara he commented on gaara's sand has gotten stronger(Since he knows it is gaara now).


How would he know it was stronger if he never fought Gaara? You're operating on a scale that doesn't exist as this man never fought his son. 

Clearly he was referring to Shukaku's previous sand arm strength.

Thanks for not replying to my initial post though, I see you're too lazy and careless of a debater to give a darn.


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## ChipsAhoy (Feb 7, 2013)

Can Kakuzu kill Gaara before he grinds enough sand with his masks? If yes, Kakuzu wins. If not, Gaara wins.

I don't see Kakuzu killing Gaara before he grinds enough sand to bury him so I'm gonna go with Gaara on this one.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tobirama Uchiha (May 10, 2016)

Kakuzu defeated Kakashi who is stronger than Gaara, so this one is pretty simple for me...
Easy-Mid/Diff win for Kakuzu

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2016)

Kakuzu should win 
Gaara can't crush him thanks to domu 
Water weakens Gaara sand 
Gian punches through it


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## UchihaX28 (May 12, 2016)

Suiton doesn't weaken Gaara's Sand, only Oil does.


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## Ashi (May 12, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Kakuzu should win
> Gaara can't crush him thanks to domu
> Water weakens Gaara sand
> Gian punches through it




Gaara's sand Tank Amatersau, The Raikage's taijutsu and Madara's susanoo swords


But Gian is piercing through?



Kakauzu has nothing on Gaara, It'd be hard pressed to say that he beats any of the five kage


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## Icegaze (May 13, 2016)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Gaara's sand Tank Amatersau, The Raikage's taijutsu and Madara's susanoo swords
> 
> 
> But Gian is piercing through?
> ...



None of those have the piercing power of gian 
Even 4 finger nikute could pierce through 

Gaara sand never tanked Amaterasu but Enton not that it matters entirely different type of damage of begin with 

Gaara sand in all those cases would not have been weakened by water to start with

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Finalbeta (May 13, 2016)

Gaara should tank his attacks and win


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## Icegaze (May 13, 2016)

Not tanking attacks with wet sand 
Which will be slower and weaker and would just conduct gian

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ARGUS (May 13, 2016)

-- suitons get dodged, raitons get dodged no diff 

 -- everything else gets tanked 

 -- sand restrains Kakuzu and he gets crushed. Time after time. And No he's not Dodging them 

gaara wins this


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## Icegaze (May 13, 2016)

Dodged ?? 
With what speed ? Gaara has zero movement feats 
Lolz the guy a very stationary fighter 

Gaara can't crush domu no feats or hype or implication of doing so

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Skywalker (May 13, 2016)

Gaara wins, Kakuzus elemental blasts are neat and all, but Gaara is still burying his ass.


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## Ryuzaki (May 13, 2016)

This is truly 50/50, I think Gaara would lose but only due to the fact that Kakuzu can just harden himself from damage and use the properteries of tendrils to climb out of any sand-based coffin Gaara fashions. There's also the fact that Kakuzu can fly to. The advantages are all in Kakuzu's favor in more of a 60/40 nature.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bonly (May 13, 2016)

Gaara grinds up enough sand to bury Kakuzu and either crush him or seal him

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ashi (May 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> None of those have the piercing power of gian
> Even 4 finger nikute could pierce through



Who says Gian is stronger than the Nukite?



> Gaara sand never tanked Amaterasu but Enton not that it matters entirely different type of damage of begin with



What? Neither of these distinction were ever made in the Manga




> Gaara sand in all those cases would not have been weakened by water to start with



Who says Kakuzu suiton can weaken Gaara's sand when it was functioning just fine in Mei's water dragon


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## Icegaze (May 14, 2016)

The distinction was clearly made  by calling one Enton kagutchi and the other Amaterasu both techniques are even used from different eyes for those who can't even read . Couldn't be more obvious 

Gian isn't weaker than 4 finger nikute either . 

Because gengetsu oily water , water being a factor there was shitting all over Gaara sand


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## Saru (May 14, 2016)

Gaara likely crushes all of Kakuzu's hearts and buries him in a sand mausoleum. Kakuzu's hearts don't have speed feats in the air matching Gaara's, and I don't think Kakuzu can survive being buried by sand. Gaara has the defense and maneuverability to dodge or tank most of what Kakuzu dishes out.


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## Icegaze (May 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> Gaara likely crushes all of Kakuzu's hearts and buries him in a sand mausoleum. Kakuzu's hearts don't have speed feats in the air matching Gaara's, and I don't think Kakuzu can survive being buried by sand. Gaara has the defense and maneuverability to dodge or tank most of what Kakuzu dishes out.



Gaara has no feats of crushing something famed for its durability 

also gian would be quite hard to block , Gaara has no feats of blocking something which pierces . Can't assume he easily blocks it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ryuzaki (May 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Gaara has no feats of crushing something famed for its durability
> 
> also gian would be quite hard to block , Gaara has no feats of blocking something which pierces . Can't assume he easily blocks it


Basically this, domu and gian are the difference makers in this match.


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## Saru (May 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Gaara has no feats of crushing something famed for its durability
> 
> also gian would be quite hard to block , Gaara has no feats of blocking something which pierces . Can't assume he easily blocks it



Gaara's best defensive feat (arguably; he has multiple good ones):



Kakuzu's best offensive feat with Gian:


I think Gaara will be fine. Not to mention the fact that Gaara can just avoid the lightning streams.


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## Icegaze (May 14, 2016)

@Saru 
With what speed feats would Gaara be avoiding gian 
Am confused


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## Saru (May 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Saru
> With what speed feats would Gaara be avoiding gian
> Am confused



I'll throw this back at ya. With what speed feats does Gian tag Gaara? Shikamaru had time to pull out a scroll in time before Gian got to him, and Gaara's speed on Nimbus is _far_ greater than that of Shikamaru's arms.


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## Empathy (May 15, 2016)

_Gian _should punch through Gaara's defense, considering it had the strength of two _Raikiris_. Assuming Kakuzu's suiton mask is capable of rudimentary suiton, that could also be used to soften up Gaara's shell. Even if he can't, _Gian_ should still be sufficient by itself, or katon and/or fuuton can supplement by displacing sand defending Kakuzu from it. Gaara shouldn't be capable of crushing Kakuzu through _Domu_, so all Gaara can try to do is seal him, but Kakuzu can have his hearts remove the tags similar to how _Joki Boi _did. Kakuzu would win, in my opinion.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Icegaze (May 15, 2016)

Saru said:


> I'll throw this back at ya. With what speed feats does Gian tag Gaara? Shikamaru had time to pull out a scroll in time before Gian got to him, and Gaara's speed on Nimbus is _far_ greater than that of Shikamaru's arms.



Pretty weak 
Gaara is hardly a mobile fighter so default goes to the technique in DB which is hyped for its speed 
Also I didn't see shikamaru with far far better speed feats than Gaara avoiding it

On what basis is Gaara nimbus quicker than shikamaru ability to move his hand upwards ?


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## Ashi (May 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> The distinction was clearly made  by calling one Enton kagutchi and the other Amaterasu both techniques are even used from different eyes for those who can't even read . Couldn't be more obvious
> 
> Gian isn't weaker than 4 finger nikute either .
> 
> Because gengetsu oily water , water being a factor there was shitting all over Gaara sand




Gaara blocked an Amaterasu and Enron when he was confronting Sasuke


Your last 2 statements are based on nothing


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## Ryuzaki (May 15, 2016)

Saru said:


> Gaara's best defensive feat (arguably; he has multiple good ones):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gian should cut through his sand defense without a problem, if Sasuke was able to punch through Gaara's back then with a mere Chidori. Gaara is probably the slowest kage in terms of speed, so I don't think he'll outrun Gian.


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## Saru (May 15, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Gian should cut through his sand defense without a problem, if Sasuke was able to punch through Gaara's back then with a mere Chidori. Gaara is probably the slowest kage in terms of speed, so I don't think he'll outrun Gian.



So, you think Raiton: Gian > 5 Susano'o swords?

And you think Gaara is slower than Shikamaru's arms?

Gaara is definitely not the slowest Kage.

I compiled some of Gaara's War Arc Nimbus feats in an older thread (and this is in addition to Gaara's speed feats against Deidara, who is about as fast as Ohnoki):


*Spoiler*: __ 













_Definitely_ not the slowest.


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## Icegaze (May 15, 2016)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Gaara blocked an Amaterasu and Enron when he was confronting Sasuke
> 
> 
> Your last 2 statements are based on nothing




Yet Sasuke says Gaara you blocked my Enton and your defence is still standing 
 at your reading ability 

Gaara never blocked Amaterasu or that would have been stated


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## Icegaze (May 15, 2016)

@Saru 
None of those scans actually show Gaara using speed to avoid anytbing though 

Don't see how that implies he can move from A to B quicker than shikamaru can move his hand up


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## Saru (May 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Saru
> None of those scans actually show Gaara using speed to avoid anytbing though
> 
> Don't see how that implies he can move from A to B quicker than shikamaru can move his hand up



Do you think Deidara can dodge Raiton: Gian on his bird? Because Gaara chased down Deidara.

If the answer is no, then I have to ask why exactly you think Raiton: Gian is so fast. Or why Shikamaru pulling out a scroll is faster than Gaara moving to the side via Nimbus.


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## Ashi (May 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Yet Sasuke says Gaara you blocked my Enton and your defence is still standing
> at your reading ability
> 
> Gaara never blocked Amaterasu or that would have been stated




Enton is just a variant of Amaterasu that involves using the latter to form different shapes 

Honestly, my point still stands


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## Icegaze (May 15, 2016)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Enton is just a variant of Amaterasu that involves using the latter to form different shapes
> 
> Honestly, my point still stands



 Enton is not a variant of Amaterasu 

Amaterasu is the creation of Enton flames on the target 

Enton is the element the black flames 

Enton katsuguhi or however it's spelled is manipulating those flames , which is what Gaara blocked 

Not Amaterasu . Again it's nice one in a while to read the manga and understand it 

Give it a try


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## Icegaze (May 15, 2016)

Saru said:


> Do you think Deidara can dodge Raiton: Gian on his bird? Because Gaara chased down Deidara.
> 
> If the answer is no, then I have to ask why exactly you think Raiton: Gian is so fast. Or why Shikamaru pulling out a scroll is faster than Gaara moving to the side via Nimbus.



Sorry where did Gaara chase down diedara ? Did he catch him with speed ? Or did he move his sand ahead of himself to catch deidara ? In a desert no less where deidara was basically flying right over sand 

Gaara has never evaded a technique for me to assume he would do that here 

The guy is detrimentally stationary


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## Ashi (May 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Enton is not a variant of Amaterasu
> 
> Amaterasu is the creation of Enton flames on the target
> 
> ...




You kind of just repeated what I said Enton= Amaterasu+Shape Manipulation

Where am I losing you?


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## Icegaze (May 15, 2016)

Amaterasu is faster ???
Maybe that 
It's as foolish as saying you dodged Sasuke using Enton and chidori therefore you can dodge Amaterasu 

Both attacks are inherently different 

Dodging Kamui snipe isn't the same as preventing Obito from coming close to you and wrapping u or shooting his fuma shiruken with Kamui 

Kakashi version of Kamui is akin to Amaterasu while Obito version is quite similar to how Enton kagtushi

Shoots projectiles , can be used as a shield etc . All that is Enton 

Being able to dodge this projectiles has no baring on ur ability to dodge Amaterasu


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## Saru (May 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry where did Gaara chase down diedara ? Did he catch him with speed ? Or did he move his sand ahead of himself to catch deidara ? In a desert no less where deidara was basically flying right over sand
> 
> Gaara has never evaded a technique for me to assume he would do that here
> 
> The guy is detrimentally stationary



Gaara can move as fast on Nimbus as he moves his sand if not faster. The point at which he caught up to Deidara is evidence of Gaara being able to keep up with him in terms of speed.


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## Ashi (May 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry where did Gaara chase down diedara ? Did he catch him with speed ? Or did he move his sand ahead of himself to catch deidara ? In a desert no less where deidara was basically flying right over sand
> 
> Gaara has never evaded a technique for me to assume he would do that here
> 
> The guy is detrimentally stationary




I gotta give it to him here, Gaara's fighting style is all stationary


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## Saru (May 15, 2016)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> I gotta give it to him here, Gaara's fighting style is all stationary



Gaara can move when he needs to. He didn't invent Nimbus so he could simply float in one spot; as the scans above show, he uses Nimbus for high-speed movement.


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## Hamaru (May 15, 2016)

It would be really sad if Gaara could not beat Kakuzu by the EOS.


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## Ashi (May 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Amaterasu is faster ???
> Maybe that
> It's as foolish as saying you dodged Sasuke using Enton and chidori therefore you can dodge Amaterasu
> 
> ...




The Amaterasu Sasuke used on Gaara didn't have any shape manipulation applied, by definition it wasn't enton


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2016)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> The Amaterasu Sasuke used on Gaara didn't have any shape manipulation applied, by definition it wasn't enton



Bruh, this is absolutely wrong as Databook even states that it was Enton.



			
				[sp=Databook 4 - Enton: Kagutsuchi said:
			
		

> Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai - Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi
> No rank, close to mid range, offensive, defensive
> Users: Sasuke Uchiha
> 
> ...



The bold is exactly what he did against Gaara. He already had pre-existing flames, so he maintained the flame's form and simply used it as a projectile continuously against Gaara. It was not Amaterasu and if it were, Gaara wouldn't have been able to block it.


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## Ashi (May 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Bruh, this is absolutely wrong as Databook even states that it was Enton.
> 
> 
> 
> The bold is exactly what he did against Gaara. He already had pre-existing flames, so he maintained the flame's form and simply used it as a projectile continuously against Gaara. It was not Amaterasu and if it were, Gaara wouldn't have been able to block it.





Are you sure that entry wasn't talking about the susanoo arrow variant?


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2016)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Are you sure that entry wasn't talking about the susanoo arrow variant?



 Actually, that's a good point, but I think it also applies to what he used against Gaara considering he's using pre-existing flames, hence why there are black flames above his head.


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## Ashi (May 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Actually, that's a good point, but I think it also applies to what he used against Gaara considering he's using pre-existing flames, hence why there are black flames above his head.



Idk cause the way it was animated in the anime, it looked more like Amaterasu


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2016)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Idk cause the way it was animated in the anime, it looked more like Amaterasu



 next one

 We can see pre-existing flames above his head and Sasuke states it's Enton.


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## Ashi (May 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> next one
> 
> We can see pre-existing flames above his head and Sasuke states it's Enton.




I don't think it's just floating there, it seems to be on top of his susanoo, maybe that's how he did it


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## UchihaX28 (May 15, 2016)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> I don't think it's just floating there, it seems to be on top of his susanoo, maybe that's how he did it



 Yeah, he's maintaining its form and position through Enton Kagutsuchi and he's simply launching it as a projectile against Gaara.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 16, 2016)

War Arc Gaara is definitely going to demolish Kakuzu. He'll just quickly create a tsunami of sand and crush Kakuzu and all of his masks.


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2016)

Saru said:


> Gaara can move as fast on Nimbus as he moves his sand if not faster. The point at which he caught up to Deidara is evidence of Gaara being able to keep up with him in terms of speed.



Ability to chase an opponent down has little baring on being able to evade attacks or be in the habit of doing so 

Point is Gaara would never initially try to avoid it because the boy don't like to move while fighting 

Same way lee fighting style is very linear and jukken users spin around a lot when using basic strikes 

Gaara style is stationary so the assumption he sees bolts and attempts to dodge is false 

I think they were certainly implied fast when shikamaru who easily fooled Hidan at point blank range and blitz him could not move out of the way 

Not saying shikamaru is a speedstar far from it but he has always been very good at scurring away as that's his style


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2016)

@TensaXZangetsu 
So I am glad you understand it wasn't Amaterasu 
But Enton being thrown via susanoo more 
Sasuke can also throw Enton himself as he did against the juubiling
That's not Amaterasu 

So Gaara did not block Amaterasu , note Gaara would utterly shit on Amaterasu but that doesn't mean he would do well against gian

For the same reason FRS who does nothing to cerebrus would utterly rape Gaara yet Amaterasu gets trolled by Gaara 

Gaara would be hard pressed to block a percing attack 

Kakuzu can shoot more than 2 bolts and keep shooting them

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Saru (May 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Ability to chase an opponent down has little baring on being able to evade attacks or be in the habit of doing so



This "habit of doing so" argument is incredibly weak because Gaara has used Nimbus to dodge in canon, and _Gaara can move on Nimbus at least as fast as he can move his sand_. You think he can pressure Deidara with his sand but hie can't fly at that same speed with his Gourd Sand, which is faster, and that doesn't make any sense.



> Gaara style is stationary so the assumption he sees bolts and attempts to dodge is false



Nope.


*Spoiler*: __ 








Gaara proves you wrong.



> I think they were certainly implied fast when shikamaru who easily fooled Hidan at point blank range and blitz him could not move out of the way



I like how you used "fooled" and "blitz" in the same sentence. Shikamaru did not "blitz" Hidan, so that statement doesn't make any sense.



> Not saying shikamaru is a speedstar



Then there's no point in trying to use him to hype Kakuzu's speed.


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2016)

Lol when shikamaru caught Hidan in his shadow with a punch that was a pure blitz 
Hidan had no idea shikamaru had moved after throwing the second trench knife 

Gaara floated up in the air to avoid flower tree world as well 

However what indication is there either attack is faster than gian actually praised for its speed ?

Kakashi who is fast could only intercept it to protect his team 

They couldn't even move a foot , so this whole Gaara jumps on his cloud is nice and all but it's not like he has to deal with only 1 blast from 1 side 

Zukkoku lights the floor up , Atsugi spreads it , the suiton which I assume is something basic like zukkoku and would be used to boost the gian the way Atsugi boosts zukkoku

I think people underestimate element blasts a lot , considering hiruzen using all 5 saved the alliance from what the likes of Mifune felt they needed saving 

So I don't see Gaara dealing with 4 coming from 4 different angles with any sort of ease when suiton basically makes his sand heavier and allows the raiton to flow with a lot more ease

Wet sand will simply allow gian to flow through it and damage Gaara regardless 

See the gokage combo, the electric water dragon flowed through the sand just fine 

@Saru

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Saru (May 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Lol when shikamaru caught Hidan in his shadow with a punch that was a pure blitz
> Hidan had no idea shikamaru had moved after throwing the second trench knife



It's simple. If there was a distraction needed, then it wasn't a blitz.



> Gaara floated up in the air to avoid flower tree world as well



Further proving my point... ?



> However what indication is there either attack is faster than gian actually praised for its speed ?



Praised by who?

Sawarabi no Mai went from Bone Bush to Bone Forest in a panel or so, so yes, it's a fast technique. There's certainly no indication that it's slower than Raiton: Gian, and Gaara saved Lee and himself at the _last possible moment_.



> Kakashi who is fast could only intercept it to protect his team



Then by your logic Kakashi can outpace Gaara's sand on foot.

Interception feats like that don't indicate Gian's speed because it happened from off-panel.



> They couldn't even move a foot , so this whole Gaara jumps on his cloud is nice and all



What? You're moving the goalposts. I never said anything about Gaara hopping on his cloud, and riding on his cloud is something Gaara commonly does, so he would likely already be on it. He'll definitely do it when he's facing Masks which can fly. Gaara can make the sand shoot up from the ground without having to "hop" anyway. How do you think he evaded Sawarabi no Mai?



> but it's not like he has to deal with only 1 blast from 1 side



I never said otherwise, but now you're to shifting your argument to Gaara having difficulty with "numbers" rather than the speed of Gian.



> Zukkoku lights the floor up , Atsugi spreads it , the suiton which I assume is something basic like zukkoku and would be used to boost the gian the way Atsugi boosts zukkoku
> 
> I think people underestimate element blasts a lot , considering hiruzen using all 5 saved the alliance from what the likes of Mifune felt they needed saving
> 
> So I don't see Gaara dealing with 4 coming from 4 different angles with any sort of ease when suiton basically makes his sand heavier and allows the raiton to flow with a lot more ease



Suiton is just one Mask, so it's not going to make all of Gaara's sand heavier--just a portion of it.

Gaara can also make Suna Bunshin to divide and conquer, so numbers isn't as large an issue as you're suggesting. Additionally, Gaara's sand should be able to block Kakuzu's Katon and Fuuton (or any combination of the two) just fine considering it tanked C3 and Enton, both of which are a similar form of elemental damage.



> Wet sand will simply allow gian to flow through it and damage Gaara regardless
> 
> See the gokage combo, the electric water dragon flowed through the sand just fine



Gaara doesn't bury _himself_ in sand, so that's not really relevant.


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2016)

@Saru 
Gian speed is hyped in the DB quite significantly 
Never seen a jutsu hyped for its speed in DB be casually side stepped .

Bone forest isn't even slightly fast it's unpredictable because of how it sprouts check the description . 

The gourd sand portion of it is the bit the water mask would aim for . The one Gaara uses to actually defend himself as its stronger and faster 

The masks can keep going with no detriment to kakuzu reserves

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Saru (May 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Saru
> Gian speed is hyped in the DB quite significantly
> Never seen a jutsu hyped for its speed in DB be casually side stepped .



I haven't seen many jutsu hyped for their speed in the Databook at all, so we wouldn't really have a lot to compare it to. The Databook doesn't describe Gian as unavoidable or impossible to dodge.



> Bone forest isn't even slightly fast it's unpredictable because of how it sprouts check the description .



So because speed wasn't menitoned in the Databook description for Sawarabi no Mai it's slow?

I guess Amaterasu is slow now... ?



> The gourd sand portion of it is the bit the water mask would aim for . The one Gaara uses to actually defend himself as its stronger and faster



So, you're telling me Kakuzu's featless Suiton Mask is going to somehow be able to target and reach Gaara's Gourd Sand with one of its linear attacks in spite of the fact that Gaara has a) Suna Bunshin, b) what is essentially a miniature desert to work with (after grinding up enough sand), c) and would be well aware of a weakness to Suiton? Not buying that one. Definitely not buying it coming from a featless Masks which lacks the capacity for stealth unlike Deidara's C1 (which was needed to target Gaara's Gourd Sand) and has zero speed feats.



> The masks can keep going with no detriment to kakuzu reserves



Says who? The Masks techniques run on chakra. You think they just knead imagination into those jutsu?


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## Matty (May 16, 2016)

I don't think Raiton: Gian matters since his sand will be wet due to suiton.

If one raiton mask can produce something as powerful as two raikiris, and katon mask produces something that was burning down that forest, then it is safe to assume his suiton mask would have a very large scale attack.

Once that comes out it is over for gaara and that plus a sequential raiton Gian attack should kill him


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## Saru (May 16, 2016)

Matty said:


> If one raiton mask can produce something as powerful as two raikiris, and katon mask produces something that was burning down that forest, then it is safe to assume his suiton mask would have a very large scale attack.


Not necessarily. Gian is tiny in comparison to Zukkoku and Atsugai, so Kakuzu's Suiton Mask could be similar in size to that. We've seen small, highly-compressed Suiton streams before through Tobirama and the Shinobi Alliance.


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## Matty (May 16, 2016)

True, but even Gian wasn't compressed, it was pretty spread out. I can't see Kakuzu having 3 masks that are wide in AOE and then one suit on mask that is compressed 

I can't prove anything but to me it just wouldn't make sense.


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## Saru (May 16, 2016)

By "compressed," I mean on the scale of Gian.

There's a big difference in size between this:

*Spoiler*: __ 







And this:

*Spoiler*: __ 








Gaara should more than be able to handle the latter with this amount of sand.


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2016)

@Saru 
Jutsu hyped for speed 
Amaterasu , kamui, raiton wolf , gian, atsugi, air Palm , chidori, chidori senbon, raikiri

I can go on but so many are hyped for speed which doesn't detract from the point as so many aren't 

 Amaterasu is refered as instant so obviously not slow 
I expect more from you 

I however would say a jutsu where kishi uses speed to describe it as its main feature would be faster than one where speed isn't mentioned 


The masks have their own chakra though : hmm??

Btw crushing thread like masks ain't easy ask chouji they lol 'd at his cho Harite

Gaara then has the foolish habit of leaving the face of his victim free when crushing them in sand coffin 

Crushing threads does fuck all , he has to break the masks . The masks can also use their blasts just fine when restrained esp when Gaara leaves their face exposed 

Do show me when he has used sand coffin and covered the person face I'll show u a scan of 3 people during war arc he left their face open


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2016)

@Saru 
It's not about the amount of sand considering the small surface area the gian bolts would shoot through 
It's about how durable that portion is 

Nothing Gaara has showed implies he will do well with a percing attack 

Do u think if chidori Eiso swung at his sand tsunami that the eiso won't run through it ?


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## Saru (May 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Saru
> Jutsu hyped for speed
> Amaterasu , kamui, raiton wolf , gian, atsugi, air Palm , chidori, chidori senbon, raikiri
> 
> ...



Obviously I was referring to the Databook since you tried to use to support your argument...

Those jutsu you mentioned are not hyped for the speed in the Databook.

Databook hype =/= feats or hype in the manga. 



> I however would say a jutsu where kishi uses speed to describe it as its main feature would be faster than one where speed isn't mentioned



Speed wasn't mentioned in Amaterasu's description or Kamui's description.

So I would disagree.



> The masks have their own chakra though : hmm??



They may, but they also have a limit, so I'm not really sure why you would bring up Kakuzu not getting tired.



> Btw crushing thread like masks ain't easy ask chouji they lol 'd at his cho Harite
> 
> Gaara then has the foolish habit of leaving the face of his victim free when crushing them in sand coffin
> 
> ...



You're reaching now. 

I never said anything about Gaara just crushing threads, and he would obviously be able to crush the masks with his sand.


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2016)

@Saru
Read chidori senbon entry and the rest before debating
Here is a link to one
I rest my case 


More specialised in speed

Kmt

More specialised than chidori which is called a high speed stab


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## Saru (May 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Saru
> Read chidori senbon entry and the rest before debating
> Here is a link to one
> I rest my case
> ...



Lol, that's the only jutsu that you listed there that mentions speed, bro. Chidori, Raikiri, Raijuu Tsuigaa, etc. have nothing on speed.

So my point still stands.

And no, I don't think Chidori Eiso would cut through Gaara's Sand like butter.

Itachi's *V2* Susano'o chops have penetrating power comparable to Chidori seeing as how they chopped through Nagato's highly durable Asura-enhanced body. Madara's *V3* Susano'o swords needed to gang up on Gaara's sand defense to break through it, and I definitely don't think Chidori Eiso is superior to 5 Susano'o swords.


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2016)

Chidori high speed Jab is basically mentioned 
Do we need to do this everytime 
Read the dam DB or link the bloody description that apparently proves me wrong


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2016)

Chidori 


*HIGH SPEED JAB!!!!!
*
Gian 



*NEXT TO iMpOSSIBLE to dodge 

Again emphasis on its speed 

Seriously you are simply poorly informed on this quite comically so*


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## Isaiah13000 (May 17, 2016)

@Saru and @Icegaze Gaara's sand is weak to oil, not Suiton.


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## Saru (May 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Chidori high speed Jab is basically mentioned
> Do we need to do this everytime
> Read the dam DB or link the bloody description that apparently proves me wrong



Ah, my bad on Chidori not mentioning speed _at all_. Even so, these jutsu you mention have been avoided, so my point still stands. Chidori and Raikiri are based on the users' speed, and Sasuke and Kakashi have been avoided numerous times throughout the story. Therefore, your claim that you've never seen a jutsu hyped for its speed being dodged is false.

@Isaiah13000 that's not what @Icegaze is saying if I understand his argument correctly. He's saying that Suiton will make Gaara's Sand wet and heavy, which it should since it's sand.


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2016)

@Saru 
How does chopping asura arms mean they are comparable to chidori ???
Is there some indication chidori won't have done the same causally or done so with more ease ? Chidori is the jutsu known for its cutting ability not susanoo arms 

V3 bendy swords having more cutting ability than chidori eiso is hilarious at best 

Gaara defending susanoo swings doesn't suddenly mean anyone u think is implied weaker simply stands no chance of breaching his defence 

Different type of attacks 

Fucking yasaka single beads punched through Gaara sand defence like it was nothing 

And they aren't even known for piercing


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2016)

@Saru 
Suiton won't just make it wet and heavy but would also allow gian to be conducted through it can't defend with something that will let electricity flow through it


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## Isaiah13000 (May 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Saru
> How does chopping asura arms mean they are comparable to chidori ???
> Is there some indication chidori won't have done the same causally or done so with more ease ? Chidori is the jutsu known for its cutting ability not susanoo arms
> 
> ...


Itachi's V2 Susanoo sword cut through Kimimaro's senjutsu-enhanced bones that were noted to be stronger than tempered steel. Gaara's sand was able to block five of Madara's V3 Susanoo swords simultaneously. Sasuke's Enton also failed to burn through the sand based on what we witnessed. Gaara's sand was also capable of moving through Mei's Suiton just fine when the Gokage worked together to restrain Madara. So Gaara's sand will have no problem dealing with any of Kakuzu's attacks. It may be wet and heavy, but I don't see why that makes him vulnerable.


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## Saru (May 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Saru
> How does chopping asura arms mean they are comparable to chidori ???
> Is there some indication chidori won't have done the same causally or done so with more ease ?




Nagato's Asura Path impeded Kakashi's Raikiri, and we know it was able to slow Kakashi down because otherwise jumping in front of Kakashi's Raikiri would have been futile.



> V3 bendy swords having more cutting ability than chidori eiso is hilarious at best



Explain why it's so funny.

Because I find it a lot harder to believe Hebi Sasuke's Chidori Eiso is stronger than 5 of Madara's Uchiha's Susano'o swords than vice versa.



> Gaara defending susanoo swings doesn't suddenly mean anyone u think is implied weaker simply stands no chance of breaching his defence



When did I say that?



> Different type of attacks
> 
> Fucking yasaka single beads punched through Gaara sand defence like it was nothing
> 
> And they aren't even known for piercing



Yasaka Beads are a different type of attack, and Madara used a barrage of them. Yasaka Beads are a type of blunt force attack, hence why everything that's been hit by them has been subject to explosion and not sliced.


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## Icegaze (May 17, 2016)

@Saru 
I concede on the chidori vs susanoo variant ability to pierce 

However would gian really need to pierce considering wet sand and all 

Or do u find it impossible for Gaara gourd sand to get wet

Before you say he uses a tsunami why didn't that happen against jouki boy or Madara clones or Madara before the gokage gathered ?

Perhaps maybe because it's not so simple ?

Also flying masks and all harder to sand bury them than the likes of Kimi I would say


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## Saru (May 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> However would gian really need to pierce considering wet sand and all
> 
> Or do u find it impossible for Gaara gourd sand to get wet



I don't think wet sand would hinder Gaara so much as to make him unable to cope. Gaara highlighted the oily properties of Gengetsu's body and attacks moreso than the fact that it was a liquid, so maybe Gaara's sand is only significantly affected by oil. The impression I got from that was Gaara would've been okay had the Mizukage's attacks been purely Suiton-based. I mean, Gaara's sand didn't turn into glass because of Enton, so the nature of Gaara's sand isn't that clear-cut when it comes to how elemental damage affects it.



> Before you say he uses a tsunami why didn't that happen against jouki boy or Madara clones or Madara before the gokage gathered ?
> 
> Perhaps maybe because it's not so simple ?



This goes back to what I was stating in the other Gaara thread with Empathy. Jouki Boi was too fast for Gaara's sand, and Gaara using a greater amount of sand wouldn't have made it any faster. I used to think that Gaara was unable to use large AoE attacks against the Gokage due to the threat of friendly fire, but that doesn't make sense because Gaara lifted a ridiculous amount of sand in Sunagakure without anyone being injured, and the Gokage as a unit could have escape danger via flight anyway, so that leads me to believe Gaara couldn't overwhelm Madara's Susano'o before they attacked. Even with his most powerful jutsu being enhanced by Shukaku's fuinjutsu, Gaara couldn't seal Madara's V3 Susano'o, so he'd probably have to use a ton of sand to imprison one, let alone several. His Sand also failed to bust Madara's Susano'o in any way, whereas Kakuzu's Masks are nowhere near as durable.



> Also flying masks and all harder to sand bury them than the likes of Kimi I would say



Agreed, but Gaara has sand arms he can use to crush multiple targets. He can use those arms in flight, and he can also use them in more complex ways than he can an amorphous wave sand. Gaara also has Suna Arare which can rain down on Kakuzu's Masks, and the Masks don't really have an answer for that sort of wide AoE jutsu because, unlike Gaara, the Masks lack defense.


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