# Current Naruto,Current Sasuke,Current Kakashi,8th Gate Gai,and Kaguya vs. Yamcha



## Memory (Aug 9, 2014)

Restrictions: None
Location: Grassy Field
Distance: 20m
Knowledge: Manga


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## Red Angel (Aug 9, 2014)

First team gets Yamcha'd


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## BigIsaac (Aug 9, 2014)

He beats 4 of the 5 and then gets blown up by a Saibamen, because it is against the very nature of reality to allow Yamcha to win a fight.
Yajirobe, Tien and Krillin might have a chance, though


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## vagnard (Aug 9, 2014)

Which Yamcha?. I see them winning against Yamcha at the beginning of DBZ. After his training with Kami he stomps.


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## Linkofone (Aug 9, 2014)

Yamacha < Raditz 

Yamacha < Saibamen

Edit: NVM I was wrong.


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## BigIsaac (Aug 9, 2014)

The big problem with the matchup is that Yamcha has literally no feats in DBZ, aside from being slightly stronger than a Saibamen in the Saiyan Saga. He does absolutely nothing after being revived (unless getting Yamcha'd by an old mandroid counts)


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## Sauce (Aug 9, 2014)

I simply can't put anyone from the Naruverse over anyone from the DBZ verse. With that said the combined strength from all those characters alone would overcome Yamcha.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 9, 2014)

Rurushu said:


> I simply can't put anyone from the Naruverse over anyone from the DBZ verse. With that said the combined strength from all those characters alone would overcome Yamcha.



As if numbers matter. Yamcha nukes all of them.


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## BigIsaac (Aug 9, 2014)

I guess he'd get scaling from the other humans who trained on King Kai's planet, by which I mean exclusively Tien
One a scale of 1 to rapestomp, how would Cell Saga Tien (i.e. the Tien who held off semi-perfect Cell for a bit by spamming Tribeam) fair against those 5, or the whole Narutoverse in general?


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## King Kakarot (Aug 9, 2014)

BigIsaac said:


> The big problem with the matchup is that Yamcha has literally no feats in DBZ, aside from being slightly stronger than a Saibamen in the Saiyan Saga. He does absolutely nothing after being revived (unless getting Yamcha'd by an old mandroid counts)



statements put him above saiyan saga vegeta at the very least

Android 19 mistakenly thought Yamcha was goku(from the saiyan saga)

and we all know saiyan saga vegeta rapes team 1 so......


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## Iwandesu (Aug 9, 2014)

Anime or manga Yamcha ?
Anyway , kaguya teleport him if he doesn't aim at her first.
If he does , he roflstomp.


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## LazyWaka (Aug 9, 2014)

Anything saiyan saga or later completely murks team 1.


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## LoveLessNHK (Aug 9, 2014)

How fast is Yamcha?


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## Yami Munesanzun (Aug 9, 2014)

better idea:

Current Naruto,Current Sasuke,Current Kakashi,8th Gate Gai,and Kaguya vs. _*Guldo*_

Who will manage to take out the Psychic Frog that can stop time?!


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 9, 2014)

Yami Munesanzun said:


> better idea:
> 
> Current Naruto,Current Sasuke,Current Kakashi,8th Gate Gai,and Kaguya vs. _*Guldo*_
> 
> Who will manage to take out the Psychic Frog that can stop time?!



Guldo is still way too powerful for the Narutoverse.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 9, 2014)

Yami Munesanzun said:


> better idea:
> 
> Current Naruto,Current Sasuke,Current Kakashi,8th Gate Gai,and Kaguya vs. _*Guldo*_
> 
> Who will manage to take out the Psychic Frog that can stop time?!



How is using a character stronger than the current character a good idea?

The HST hasn't broken past the BoSS Piccolo/Raditz type characters yet.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 9, 2014)

Guldo was managing to react to two people with 10,000+ powerlevels 

so yeah, he vapes them


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## Iwandesu (Aug 9, 2014)

Guldo is small planet+ and 4 digit mach.
Time stop is just overkill, he rapes 10/10 times, even frieza would be a fairer match.:heston


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 9, 2014)

Guldo is probably around Nappa level or so. More than enough to solo the HST even without his psychic powers.


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## Iwandesu (Aug 9, 2014)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Guldo is probably around Nappa level or so. More than enough to solo the HST even without his psychic powers.


Kaguya bfr nappa for obvious reasons.
And anyone up either cannon 50% frieza or anime raditz on this matter.(after this they blitz)


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## Red Angel (Aug 9, 2014)

ahahahahaha Piss off

Nappa two fingers the verse

EDIT: Also

>DBZ vs HST threads
>2014


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## Iwandesu (Aug 9, 2014)

Skarbrand said:


> ahahahahaha Piss off
> 
> Nappa two fingers the verse
> 
> ...


Well yeah, He can.
Sadly, Kaguya is faster and will insta bfr him via hax in a way his superior quality and dc means jackish.


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## Yami Munesanzun (Aug 9, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> How is using a character stronger than the current character a good idea?



Because it's _Guldo_, so I thought it'd be funny. 

And, yknow. Timestop only works as long as he can hold his breath.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 9, 2014)

Guldo having to hold his breath is something the anime added. In reality, keeping time frozen is just incredibly taxing for him, so he can't do it for very long.


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## LoveLessNHK (Aug 9, 2014)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> In reality



Lol.

No, but cool, that's interesting. I haven't read the manga.


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## Yami Munesanzun (Aug 9, 2014)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Guldo having to hold his breath is something the anime added. In reality, keeping time frozen is just incredibly taxing for him, so he can't do it for very long.



technically speaking, holding your breath _is_ rather taxing.

so..either way...


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Bacisally everyone on the left side can solo.


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## Adamant soul (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Bacisally everyone on the left side can solo.



Um no, they all get blown to kingdom come except *maybe *Kaguya who* might* pull off a BFR but no one else is doing a damn thing here.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Bacisally everyone on the left side can solo.





Nobody on that team is soloing. They're not even winning together.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Yamcha got killed by a tiny explosion caused by the saibamans suicide... i go with this yamcha since its the last one we actually have feats for. and a simple bijuu dama puts out more force than what the saibaman blew up with.. and everyone in this topic either has something on that level or better.

not to mention the speed difference is insane.. current naruto characters are reacting and outrunning space time jutsus.. yamacha is a snail compared to them.


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## Red Angel (Aug 10, 2014)

Saibaman=Raditz who>Nardoverse

This isn't a low end showing, or one that'd be a negative for Yamcha


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## Hachibi (Aug 10, 2014)

Naruto team can pull of a win if Kaguya manage to BFR him
If not, well...


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## Adamant soul (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Yamcha got killed by a tiny explosion caused by the saibamans suicide... i go with this yamcha since its the last one we actually have feats for. and a simple bijuu dama puts out more force than what the saibaman blew up with.. and everyone in this topic either has something on that level or better.
> 
> not to mention the speed difference is insane.. current naruto characters are reacting and outrunning space time jutsus.. yamacha is a snail compared to them.



PL 400 Piccolo = Small planet Level 
PL 1000 Saibaman and Yamcha > PL 400 Piccolo
Kaguya = moon level

Yeah no, Kaguya's BFR is the only thing that can do shit here. As for the Saibaman explosion being tiny, you act like concentrated energy isn't a thing in all fiction, they're both stronger than small planet level Piccolo, as such they are both planet level.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 10, 2014)

Adamant soul said:


> PL 400 Piccolo = Small planet Level
> PL 1000 Saibaman and Yamcha > PL 400 Piccolo
> Kaguya = moon level
> 
> Yeah no, Kaguya's BFR is the only thing that can do shit here. As for the Saibaman explosion being tiny, you act like concentrated energy isn't a thing in all fiction, they're both stronger than small planet level Piccolo, as such they are both planet level.



Pretty much this.


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## Hachibi (Aug 10, 2014)

When I think about it, Kamui may or may not be another way of victory if they can distract Yamcha long enough


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Adamant soul said:


> PL 400 Piccolo = Small planet Level
> PL 1000 Saibaman and Yamcha > PL 400 Piccolo
> Kaguya = moon level
> 
> Yeah no, Kaguya's BFR is the only thing that can do shit here. As for the Saibaman explosion being tiny, you act like concentrated energy isn't a thing in all fiction, they're both stronger than small planet level Piccolo, as such they are both planet level.



Umm Piccolo never destroyed a planet at 400.. he destroyed a moon which takes no where near the force of destroying a earth sized planet.

Also Radditz got killed by a light of death.. an attack that was shown during the radditz fight to not completely destroy a mountain. narutos bijuu damas can completely desfroy mountains therefore it could also kill radditz as well. naruto can tank the juubi beam though which can destroy mountain ranges so naruto can tank piccolos same attack that killed radditz.

also the speed difference makes it so yamacha is never touching naruto... unless of course he has s/t reaction levels now?

Edit- when was the first time they mentioned being able to concentrate ki blasts radius' do you know? IIRC it was vegeta againat the androids.


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## Fujita (Aug 10, 2014)

space/time reactions?

what does that mean


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## Imagine (Aug 10, 2014)

Here we go again.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Fujita said:


> space/time reactions?
> 
> what does that mean



It means you can react to space time techniques so hiraishin, kaguyas technique or IT.


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## az eleon (Aug 10, 2014)

SasukeHyuga88 said:


> Restrictions: None
> Location: Grassy Field
> Distance: 20m
> Knowledge: Manga



It much to handle for him here

He get wreck in the end

Poor Yamucha


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Umm Piccolo never destroyed a planet at 400.. he destroyed a moon which takes no where near the force of destroying a earth sized planet.
> 
> Also Radditz got killed by a light of death.. an attack that was shown during the radditz fight to not completely destroy a mountain. narutos bijuu damas can completely desfroy mountains therefore it could also kill radditz as well. naruto can tank the juubi beam though which can destroy mountain ranges so naruto can tank piccolos same attack that killed radditz.
> 
> ...



How about you lurk more?


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## Hachibi (Aug 10, 2014)

What can Yamcha do if they manage to land Kamui thank do distraction?


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## Adamant soul (Aug 10, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> How about you lurk more?



But, but, Piccolo's special beam cannon only destroyed a mountain range, it's not like it's a concentrated beam of energy designed to PIERCE the target rather than blow him up or anything. 



Hachibi94 said:


> What can Yamcha do if they manage to land Kamui thank do distraction?



Did Kakashi get his sharingan back when I wasn't looking?


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## Hachibi (Aug 10, 2014)

Adamant soul said:


> But, but, Piccolo's special beam cannon only destroyed a mountain range, it's not like it's a concentrated beam of energy designed to PIERCE the target rather than blow him up or anything.
> 
> 
> 
> Did Kakashi get his sharingan back when I wasn't looking?


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## Adamant soul (Aug 10, 2014)

Ah I see, good for him. Yes, Kamui would be a threat if he could land it though it's not nearly as readily usable as Kaguya's BFR and it's very likely he'll be dead before he can use it.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Adamant soul said:


> But, but, Piccolo's special beam cannon only destroyed a mountain range, it's not like it's a concentrated beam of energy designed to PIERCE the target rather than blow him up or anything.
> 
> 
> 
> Did Kakashi get his sharingan back when I wasn't looking?



Yet it detonated when it hit the mountain seeing as both goku and piccolo had to brace for an impact. 
And are you able to properly read my posts?  piccolos beam didnt destroy an enitre mountain range( and that first mountain was part of a range) it was the juubi beam that naruto tanked that previously destroyed a mountain range..which shows he can tank the light of death. 

also why are you itt if youre not up to date with the naruto manga?


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Yet it detonated when it hit the mountain seeing as both goku and piccolo had to brace for an impact.
> And are you able to properly read my posts?  piccolos beam didnt destroy an enitre mountain range( and that first mountain was part of a range) it was the juubi beam that naruto tanked that previously destroyed a mountain range..which shows he can tank the light of death.
> 
> also why are you itt if youre not up to date with the naruto manga?



Obviously this guy has never heard of a concentrated attack. I guess a random beam (that destroyed the moon) is stronger than Piccolo's best move.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

What? the entire point of the light of death is that piccolo concentrates all of his ki into one move.. yet ive never heard of concentrated attacks.. lol 

if youre implying they can control the radius of the blasts like they state they can do later on youll need to prove they can do so at this point in the series.

but your analogy is pretty bad man.. we dont know how much energy piccolo put into the moon busting beam nor do we know just how strong piccolos base power was at that point.


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## Hachibi (Aug 10, 2014)

A concentrated attack is a attack that is focused on one point like Minato's Rasengan or Kakashi's Raikiri


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## Iwandesu (Aug 10, 2014)

Special beam cannon>saibamen explosion>moon blast . 
Just like frieza death beam>vegeta planet busting  galick gun.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> What? the entire point of the light of death is that piccolo concentrates all of his ki into one move.. yet ive never heard of concentrated attacks.. lol
> 
> if youre implying they can control the radius of the blasts like they state they can do later on youll need to prove they can do so at this point in the series.
> 
> *but your analogy is pretty bad man.*. we dont know how much energy piccolo put into the moon busting beam nor do we know just how strong piccolos base power was at that point.



More like you just don't know what you're talking about. Like I said, lurk more.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

@Hachibi ye exactly and even with those two examples they still have different properties when they hit someone



iwandesu said:


> Special beam cannon>saibamen explosion>moon blast .
> Just like frieza death beam>vegeta planet busting  galick gun.



There are assumptions in both of your analogies.
first we dont know the placing of piccolos moon buster attack... he could have a base pl of 450 or he could have a base pl of 1000 and regardless he could make a beam of over 1000 at a base pl of 450 as well so theres no way to place this on your list.

and the second one we dont know if vegeta was actually capable of destroying the planet... or if he was bluffing.


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## Iwandesu (Aug 10, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Special beam cannon>saibamen explosion>moon blast .
> Just like frieza death beam>vegeta planet busting  galick gun.


Or frs> temari tornado
Or current sauce chidori> hebi's kirin


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> More like you just don't know what you're talking about. Like I said, lurk more.



Explain how im wrong then. until you do so i will accept this consession.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Or frs> temari tornado
> Or current sauce chidori> hebi's kirin



Is there any way to directly compare and scale these techniques? im not saying these ones are wrong... just that my exampkes piccolos and juubis attack were both done to a mountain range and the juubi has a much better feat.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Explain how im wrong then. until you do so i will accept this consession.



1. Piccolo's special beam cannon is his strongest technique. The beam he used to bust the moon was a random energy blast.
2. Piccolo put all his power into his special beam cannon. Random moon buster? Not so much. Yet the moon buster is stronger according to you despite it being a weaker technique and Piccolo not even putting all of his power into it. 
3. Learn the meaning of concentrated attacks.
4. Again, lurk more


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## Iwandesu (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> @Hachibi ye exactly and even with those two examples they still have different properties when they hit someone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


>Frieza was afraid he would bust namek
The same which destroyed 50+ planets before.(namek included)
Piccolo claimed he would bust.
Also there were no reasons to lie, He even took distance before performing it.


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## Hachibi (Aug 10, 2014)

Naruto team has 4 ways to win , so they're chance aren't that low:
-Kaguya's BFR
-Well placed Kamui
-Sasuke's teleport + Kaguya's bones
-and depending of the time, Infinite Tsukuyomi

Naruto's clones can buy time as well


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## trance (Aug 10, 2014)

More Nardo vs. DBZ threads? Nice. 

OT: Yamcha blitzes and oneshots.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> 1. Piccolo's special beam cannon is his strongest technique. The beam he used to bust the moon was a random energy blast.
> 2. Piccolo put all his power into his special beam cannon. Random moon buster? Not so much. Yet the moon buster is stronger according to you despite it being a weaker technique and Piccolo not even putting all of his power into it.
> 3. Learn the meaning of concentrated attacks.
> 4. Again, lurk more



1. Yes i dont deny the light of death is his strongest tech at the time. Piccolos moon buting feat came months after though during his traing period(which we know he did get stronger during)

2. Can you prove how mich power piccolo put into his moon busting attack though?  Because again if piccolo has a base pl of 1000 at this point or 800 or even lower than that its not impossible to increase his ki near instantly to almost or completely double his output (and exceed the what 1440 piccolo generated with the light of death) heck piccolo did this against nappa a few months later. If you cant prove just how much ki he put into the attack(which so far you havent been able to do) then you cant prove to me which one is stronger than the other without going to the actual feats.


and which feats are better to you moon busting or semi moutnain busting?


3. Umm both the examples im using are a concentrated attack.

4.maybe you should take your own advice?


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> 1. Yes i dont deny the light of death is his strongest tech at the time. Piccolos moon buting feat came months after though during his traing period(which we know he did get stronger during)



And nothing suggests he was significantly stronger at that point than when he was during his battle with Raditz.



> 2. Can you prove how mich power piccolo put into his moon busting attack though?  Because again if piccolo has a base pl of 1000 at this point or 800 or even lower than that its not impossible to increase his ki near instantly to almost or completely double his output (and exceed the what 1440 piccolo generated with the light of death) heck piccolo did this against nappa a few months later. If you cant prove just how much ki he put into the attack(which so far you havent been able to do) then you cant prove to me which one is stronger than the other without going to the actual feats.



It obviously wasn't all of his power as he wasn't extremely exhausted afterwards (yet was after using his special beam cannon). Piccolo put all of his power in his special beam cannon and it's his strongest technique. Use common sense.




> and which feats are better to you moon busting or semi moutnain busting?



Still haven't learned to meaning of a concentrated attack. I guess Vegeta's galick gun is stronger than Frieza's death beam. 



> 3. Umm both the examples im using are a concentrated attack.



*sigh*



> 4.maybe you should take your own advice?



I'm not the one spouting nonsense nor am I the one who fails to recognize what a concentrated attack is.


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## Hachibi (Aug 10, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> And nothing suggests he was significantly stronger at that point than when he was during his battle with Raditz.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What about my option tho? 

#AttentionWhore


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

1.Well actually we know he went from 416 to 1220 during the entire year.. and we know he blew up the moon roughly six monfhs into the training.. so a logical assumption would be to take his total powerlevel added during that year cut in half and add that to his previous power.

So 1220-416=804/2= 402+416= 818 or so for his base powerlevel for this time. thats an assumption but its as logical as we can get.

2. yeah piccolo going from 416 to 1440 did make him exhuasted. this is a rate of 3.46tikes his base strength.

yet in order for piccolo to replicate the 1440 pl from the most logical assumption we can make wouldnt even be a 2x increase to his powerlevel... and weve seen goku do a 2x increase with his kamehameha wave against radditz and not be instantly tired out.


3. What feats does vegetas gatlick gun have to make such a comparison?


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## BigIsaac (Aug 10, 2014)

Oh wow, we've got a really bad case over here. 

My 2 cents:

DBZ characters are able to freely manipulate the blast radii of their attacks. If they didn't do that, then even the random energy balls they throw at each other would lay waste to entire continents (pre-Frieza) or blow up the planet altogether (post-Frieza)

Piccolo's special beam cannon is a case where the blast radius is very small as a result of its intended use. It's not meant to incinerate you like the Kamehameha or Galick Gun, but penetrate your body like the Kienzan or Death Beam

After the first shot missed, Piccolo explains that he could only pull the SBC off ONE more time. In other words, it uses up around half of his total energy.
Another factor is that it took him a long ass time to charge the attack up, which is typical for moves that exhaust a lot of power.

Meanwhile, his moon buster took all of 0 seconds to charge and he showed no sign of exhaustion afterwards.
He also CAN'T have been much stronger than when he fought Raditz. 
Why? He destroys the moon to stop Gohan, who had transformed into a great ape at the beginning of his 6-month survival training. This happened mere DAYS after the fight against Raditz

Your turn. How about you explain to me how Piccolo supposedly became immensely more powerful over the span of less than a week?

Saibamen have a power level of around 1200, and Yamcha was quite a bit ahead of that. He overpowered the Saibamen without much difficulty, which forced it to use that suicide attack.


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## BigIsaac (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> 1.Well actually we know he went from 416 to 1220 during the entire year.. and we know he blew up the moon roughly six monfhs into the training.. so a logical assumption would be to take his total powerlevel added during that year cut in half and add that to his previous power.
> 
> So 1220-416=804/2= 402+416= 818 or so for his base powerlevel for this time. thats an assumption but its as logical as we can get.
> 
> ...




First of all, get your time stamps right. 
Piccolo busted the moon right after fighting Raditz. 

He drops Gohan off for his 6-month survival training, who promptly gets stuck on the peak of a small mountain. Before he can find a way down, he notices the full moon and turns Ozaru. In order to stop him, Piccolo blows up the moon and tears off his tail. He than uses his clothes beam to give Gohan new clothes and a sword.

Secondly, No way in hell was Piccolo only at 1400. That was his power level in a relaxed state. His full power is somewhere around 3000-3500, given his performance against Nappa (6000) 
Similarly, Yamcha and Tien both handed a Saibemen its ass, even though their relaxed power levels were only around 1000 (vs the Saibamen's 1200). Krillin even killed 3 of them in a single shot (plus power to spare to attack Vegeta and Nappa) despite also only being around 1000 at base


What feats does the Galick Gun have? Overpowering Goku's Kaioken x3 Kamehameha, for one.
It also gets power scaling from that fact that Scouter Vegeta is around 40-50 times stronger than moon-busting Piccolo


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

It seems i was wrong and it was only a week or so after the fact. i just remember how piccolo said he would come for him in six months and then that was the next time we see piccolo with gohan so i assumed it sas infact six months. So basically just disregard my post with the math in it.

but eve still big isaac it was stated until during the android arc that they can control the blast radius of their explosions.


And the one that missed still detonated when it impacted the mountain seeing as there was a shockwave and goku and piccolo both had to brace for impact.

and piccolo was infact huffing after blowing up the moon.

We know z fighters can adjust their ki.. and as youve pointed out piccolo can ise LoD twice before being completely out of juice.. meaning his max power is around 2700-2800 which he could put 100% power into an attack instantly which was stated they could chabge their ki output instantly when nappa and vegeta arrived.. this is how piccolo can be so much more powerful after just one week.


Also the saibaman suicide attack was my original point.. that blast was tiny and yet it killed yamcha.. a single bijuu dama would do this same thing.

also piccolo was only ever scouted at 1440 when doing the LoD.. its obivous tjats what im referring to with that number...

And gatlick gun vegeta was at what during that beam battle??28k?30k? Thats not even a 20 times increase of what we know piccolo can put out


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## King Kakarot (Aug 10, 2014)

> Also the saibaman suicide attack was my original point.. that blast was tiny and yet it killed yamcha.. a single bijuu dama would do this same thing.




Basing attacks on environmental damage is the stupidest thing you can do


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

I'm seeing power levels and math to scale which is already idiotic. Then I see someone arguing in favor of a shonen by downplaying the other shonen(yes I know Shonen is a demographic). Naruto, Bleach, Dragonball etc have the same tropes of inconsistency, collateral not matching upto to feats by lower beings at times etc. 

Piccolo Daimou city busted, Saibaman's crater downplays that already. 23rd Budokai Piccolo's energy release does more than the Saibamen. Piccolo moonbusted. Saibamen's crater contradicts consistent lower showings of being higher.

Cherry picking the Saibaman's crater to downplay is silly. Naruto characters are'nt mountain busting every fight other and the collateral is'nt always upto par too so this is a double a standard.

I can also go with things like Minato being hit by glass shards while teleporting away from an explosion. Stop it, Yamcha can moonbust, he got stronger by an unknown amount but moon busting is within his capability.



King Kakarot said:


> Basing attacks on environmental damage is the stupidest thing you can do



No not really but just not in this case.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

> And gatlick gun vegeta was at what during that beam battle??28k?30k? Thats not even a 20 times increase of what we know piccolo can put out



The Garlick Gun is done by Vegeta at 18,000. Piccolo moonbusted at lower levels, are we seriously going to claim Vegeta's Garlick gun would'nt moonbust?

Are we comparing collateral that downplays consistent destructive feats? Can be done for Naruto too as well.


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## BigIsaac (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> but eve still big isaac it was stated until during the android arc that they can control the blast radius of their explosions.




What is your point?



> And the one that missed still detonated when it impacted the mountain seeing as there was a shockwave and goku and piccolo both had to brace for impact.




"What is your point?" 2: The Quickening



> We know z fighters can adjust their ki.. and as youve pointed out piccolo can ise LoD twice before being completely out of juice.. meaning his max power is around 2700-2800 which he could put 100% power into an attack instantly which was stated they could chabge their ki output instantly when nappa and vegeta arrived.. this is how piccolo can be so much more powerful after just one week.




what
No seriously, what the fuck are you talking about. This is some sort of weird mash-up of bad english and bad leaps in logic. 



> Also the saibaman suicide attack was my original point.. that blast was tiny and yet it killed yamcha.. a single bijuu dama would do this same thing.




Goku is weeping right now. Apparently his Warp Kamehameha against Cell had nothing behind it, either, since its explosion was tiny as well. 
AGAIN, these people can change the area of effect of their moves.
That suicide attack had enough power behind it to blow up the moon with ease; that power was just contained to a small area of effect



> And gatlick gun vegeta was at what during that beam battle??28k?30k? Thats not even a 20 times increase of what we know piccolo can put out




Right, it only has 20 times as much energy as something that can easily destroy the moon, then. 



Tranquil Fury said:


> The Garlick Gun is done by Vegeta at 18,000. Piccolo moonbusted at lower levels, are we seriously going to claim Vegeta's Garlick gun would'nt moonbust?
> 
> Are we comparing collateral that downplays consistent destructive feats? Can be done for Naruto too as well.




18000 is Vegeta's standard fighting strength. That Garlick Gun had a lot more behind it. It overpowered Goku's Kamehameha at kaioken x3, and only lost to x4
i.e. Vegeta was somewhere between 24000 and 32000


----------



## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

@Bigisaac 
1. My point is they had no control over the blast radius sizes until the android arc.

2. that it blew up on impact which makes the point about it being a piercing attack a moot point. 

3. Im saying how the total amount of ki piccolo has is the sum of both of his LoD. this was your line of reasoning a few posts back. since the sum of his two LoDs is much higher than either one seperately, this could be the cause of his "sudden powerup".

Umm gokus warp kamehameha toom place in the cell games arc, which follows the android arc where it was stated they can control the size of their blasts explosions.. also gokus kamehamahea has a statement about being able to blow up the planet... so yeah thats a bad example.

Do you have any examples of any z fighter stating they can control the size of their explosions in the saiyan arc?


Right and i just checked on a few sites.. they say the force required to destroy the moon is 30 trillion mega tons of explosives.. yet they said it take a mininum of 54 quadtrillion. mega tons of explosives which is over 1000 times stronger.


----------



## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> The Garlick Gun is done by Vegeta at 18,000. Piccolo moonbusted at lower levels, are we seriously going to claim Vegeta's Garlick gun would'nt moonbust?
> 
> Are we comparing collateral that downplays consistent destructive feats? Can be done for Naruto too as well.



No people were claiming that is a planet buster attack even though it has no feats of busting any planets.. i mean its hyped up to be able to destroy the planet but hype withput feats means nothing.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 10, 2014)

Are we playing a game of 'spot the hypocrite' yet?

Seems like we are.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 10, 2014)

Also... fucking Piccolo's moon nuking feat occurred the night after he kidnapped Gohan (could swear skimming someone bothered bullshitting it occurred months later)

And the energy behind it kind of exceeds the GBE of the moon a good deal, close to actual minimum earth nuking.

Kind of what happens when a rapidly expanding ball of planetary shrapnel does so in a span of seconds as opposed to the 10-20 odd minutes minimum energy would need.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

> No people were claiming that is a planet buster attack even though it has no feats of busting any planets.. i mean its hyped up to be able to destroy the planet but hype withput feats means nothing.



And what does going off craters do when it downplays them from even being city busting at times?Your argument does not match what you're trying to prove.



> 18000 is Vegeta's standard fighting strength. That Garlick Gun had a lot more behind it. It overpowered Goku's Kamehameha at kaioken x3, and only lost to x4
> i.e. Vegeta was somewhere between 24000 and 32000



So that makes it more powerful then, good. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue unless you were just correcting me.


----------



## BigIsaac (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> 1. My point is they had no control over the blast radius sizes until the android arc.




Have you ANY idea of the series you are talking about?
Frieza even in his base form can planet bust with the flick of a finger. If he wasn't able to control his blast radii, then Namek would have been dust long before Goku fought him.
The spirit bomb was capable of damaging Frieza, who as a consequence of his DC also has planet-level durability, yet its explosion only tore a relatively small crater.



> 2. that it blew up on impact which makes the point about it being a piercing attack a moot point.




The fact of the matter is that it tore clean through both Goku and Raditz. If you want to argue that it doesn't make sense for a piercing attack to also eventually explode, go complain to Piccolo, or more realistically, to Toryama. 
Piccolo simply set the blast radius of the attack small enough so he doesn't blow himself up with it. That's all there is to it.



> 3. Im saying how the total amount of ki piccolo has is the sum of both of his LoD. this was your line of reasoning a few posts back. since the sum of his two LoDs is much higher than either one seperately, this could be the cause of his "sudden powerup".




Oh look, someone equating power level to energy. This isn't how it works. 
If Piccolo has the ability to launch 2 attacks with a power level of 1400, then that by NO means means that he has a power level of 2800. That's absurd. 
It simply means that he has enough Ki to produce 2 1400 power level blasts. Nothing more.
The amount of Ki a character has is only one of many factors that go into the calc of the power level. 




> Umm gokus warp kamehameha toom place in the cell games arc, which follows the android arc where it was stated they can control the size of their blasts explosions.. also gokus kamehamahea has a statement about being able to blow up the planet... so yeah thats a bad example.




It's only a bad example in your backwards world, where nothing is true until it has been specifically mentioned.
As I explained before, if the characters weren't able to control the AoE of their attacks from the start, then the devastation caused in the fights would have been exponentially higher, especially in the namek saga



> Do you have any examples of any z fighter stating they can control the size of their explosions in the saiyan arc?




Yeah, every single fucking attack Piccolo, Nappa, Vegeta and Goku use. 
As said before, Piccolo can moon bust, and he's by far the weakest out of those 4. If none of them could control the AoE of their attacks, then earth would have been a smoldering wasteland by the end of the arc. 



> Right and i just checked on a few sites.. they say the force required to destroy the moon is 30 trillion mega tons of explosives.. yet they said it take a mininum of 54 quadtrillion. mega tons of explosives which is over 1000 times stronger.




ITT disintegrating every gram of matter is the only way to destroy a planet. If the Galick Gun hit, it would have dug its way to the earth's core and ripped the whole planet apart. Unlike with the moon, there would be chunks left floating around, but earth would be gone either way



Tranquil Fury said:


> So that makes it more powerful then, good. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue unless you were just correcting me.




I just said it for accuracy's sake. 
I'm not sure how the Galick Gun even came into this argument.


----------



## Reznor (Aug 10, 2014)

> 1. My point is they had no control over the blast radius sizes until the android arc.


 What's your evidence/reasoning for this?

Are you saying that environmental damage is a good indicator always until android arc or are you saying that blast radius was never deliberated dimished until android arc?


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## Reznor (Aug 10, 2014)

Also, is this a particular arc Yamcha, manga Yamcha, Yamcha with canon-ish movies, anime Yamcha?

Saiyan arc Yamcha is worth discussing.
Manga Yamcha is too powerful.
Anime Yamcha is anywhere between Ginyu force (see fight on King Kai's planet) and Cell (see him outperforming Pikkon, whatever that's worth...)


----------



## NightmareCinema (Aug 10, 2014)

Reznor said:


> Also, is this a particular arc Yamcha, manga Yamcha, Yamcha with canon-ish movies, anime Yamcha?
> 
> Saiyan arc Yamcha is worth discussing.
> Manga Yamcha is too powerful.
> Anime Yamcha is anywhere between Ginyu force (see fight on King Kai's planet) and Cell (see him outperforming Pikkon, whatever that's worth...)



By default, we go by the most powerful canon version.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Sorry to everyone else but im on my phone and im only going to be addressing bigisaac atm.

Freiza destroying vegeta happened offscreen and you cant really use it as proof of anything when we dont know which method he used to destroy it. 

The fact is it blew up against the mountain and the mountain the feat i can compare both universes to. i cant compare goku and radditz getting pierced by the attack until i know. ehat that attack can or cant do.. in this ase it cant bust a mountain. 

"That isnt how it works"
"After the first one missed, Piccolo explains that he could only pull the SBC off ine more time. In other words it uses up around half of his total energy."
It doesnt work like that eh? youre the one who suggested it does work like this.

It just means he has enough to produce 2 1400 attacks. 

if he has enough energy to produce 2 1400 attacks guess what? he coukd produce a 2800 attacks or else they would never need a senzu from just doing attacks or using techniques.. tey could simply recharge the lost energy which never happened.

Well yeah if something isnt stated until the android arc.. tbat means the first time they use woukd infact be the android arc. 

And that is not a statement...that is your opinion on the outcome on events.

And i wasnt talking about the energy needed to disintergrate a planet.. just enough to bust it.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Reznor said:


> What's your evidence/reasoning for this?
> 
> Are you saying that environmental damage is a good indicator always until android arc or are you saying that blast radius was never deliberated dimished until android arc?



It wasnt stated they could until the android arc. but yeah enviromental damage should be the best indicator ubtil they state they can control the blast size radius.


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## LoveLessNHK (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> quadtrillion mega tons



I'm sorry, what?

Also, I repeat this from earlier, not sure if it was answered. How fast is Yamcha?


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Opps nevermind that t lol.

and yamcha should be slower than 8th gate guy and naruto since they have feats putting them faster than s/t jutsu(ie they are basically faster than instant)


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## AgentAAA (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> It wasnt stated they could until the android arc. but yeah enviromental damage should be the best indicator ubtil they state they can control the blast size radius.



Ahhh. Well, if we're applying this, then current naruto, sasuke, kakashi, gai and Kaguya lose anyways. They all get hit around by naruto who doesn't even make shockwaves with his taijutsu, except for 8th gate gai, so their durability must be around peak human when taking damage from such weak punches.

They're also not shown to break mach one except for gai, so they can't outrun any explosion Yamcha throws, since, ya know, we never see the effects of breaking the sound barrier.
Really, since we're saying conserved attacks don't exist, the bijuu-dama shouldn't be tanked by any of the characters here since they're hurt by seemingly much weaker attacks.

Yamcha should probably kill everyone here since Naruto hasn't thrown bijuu-dama in his current form, only having those truth-balls, kaguya hasn't done very much in destructive power, she's just shot tiny little spears. They're also pretty slow too since they don't seem to break the sound barrier either. yamcha on the other hand can create explosions which should be much faster than all the characters here.

After all, Nardo has never stated it can conserve force before now, so the idea that such might happen is impossible.

Boy, it's almost like applying these standards to all fiction creates much more inconsistent results. how 'bout that?


----------



## BigIsaac (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Freiza destroying vegeta happened offscreen and you cant really use it as proof of anything when we dont know which method he used to destroy it.




1 
2 Whatever method it was, it shows that he is able to planet bust. There's no reason to doubt the Anime's version.



> The fact is it blew up against the mountain and the mountain the feat i can compare both universes to. i cant compare goku and radditz getting pierced by the attack until i know. ehat that attack can or cant do.. in this ase it cant bust a mountain.




> Piccolo can destroy the moon
> Piccolo exhausted half of his power to kill Radiz and Goku

What exactly is so hard to understand about this?
The fact that Piccolo had to use more of his energy to kill Raditz than to blow up the moon flat out means that Raditz has moon-level durability. By connection, saiyan saga Yamcha has far beyond moon level durability. End of story.



> It doesnt work like that eh? youre the one who suggested it does work like this.




No, I didn't.



> if he has enough energy to produce 2 1400 attacks guess what? he coukd produce a 2800 attacks or else they would never need a senzu from just doing attacks or using techniques.. tey could simply recharge the lost energy which never happened.




AGAIN, where the fuck are you going with this?
Piccolo at the start of DBZ has a power level of 400, which he can temporarily increase to 1400 by focusing a large portion of his Ki in his finger tips
And no, being able to fire 2 1400 PL attacks does not mean he can fire 1 2800 PL attack. There's such a thing as maximum energy output. For Piccolo at that time, 1400 was it.



> Well yeah if something isnt stated until the android arc.. tbat means the first time they use woukd infact be the android arc.




So if I never flat-out told you that I do in fact breathe, does this mean I have never taken a breath before? Bullshit.
They simply point this out in the Android arc for the first time. Nothing more.



> And that is not a statement...that is your opinion on the outcome on events.




What are you talking about?


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

@AgentAAA You really want to go that route? guy can beat perfect cell with just physical hits, since Ssj2 gohan did so with just punches and kickes.. and when he punched the ground after goku died it put a few small cracks in the ground. Now for Guy when he doesnt even connect with the ground he puts holes miles deep in the earth. since gohan beats perfect cell with a few physical hits and guy has better physical feats all guy would need is one punch to his gut and hes spitting our 18. perfect cell can at full power can one shot asj goku can is vastly superior to yamcha in every way.

yamcha gets owned man accept it.

@Bigisaac ill get around to that post either tonite or tomorrow.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 10, 2014)

Someone actually thinks concentrated attacks aren't a thing until the Android Saga?






23rd Budokai Piccolo, demonstrating his ability to casually throw around nuclear scale ki blasts.






A much stronger Piccolo five years later, freaking the hell out at Raditz's ability to shrug off a blast far, far smaller than that.

Someone explain how this makes any sense if each blast is only as powerful as it visually appears to be.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Ahh ill do it now.

so using the anime now? consession accepted.

You see the problem is you go by scaking regardless of thw fwat at hand whereas i scale only as a last resort if there is no feat at hand. you say hes moon level durbility due to scaling.. yet the feat of the attack hitting the mountain didnt blow up the mountain.  Using direct scaling based off the actual feat which killed him but couldnt blow up a mountain means he cannot survive the moon busting attack.  If ge got hit by the moon busting attack or an attack stated to be able to bust a moon youd have alot better case.

And if what youre saying is correct goku didnt need a senzu bean after returning down snake way.. i mean in the manga it was shown he needs one but according to your logic he could have just recharged up his ki back up to his max. Infact i dont believe this has ever happened.. even after vegeta and piccolo gave the androids ki they also needed senzus. Is there any example from the manga to support your stance ?


Youre not a manga therefore you are irrelevent. 

I asked you if it was stated.. what you gave kw qasnt a statement, it was an interjection of your opinion qhen i was asking for a manga fact.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Someone actually thinks concentrated attacks aren't a thing until the Android Saga?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Umm that was an entirely different piccolo... we also were never given an offical rating on the demon kings pl when he did that city busting attack and we know he can instantly increase his ki.  So do you have any way to prove king piccolos city busting attack was actually weaker than that blast?


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

Piccolo Daimou is nowhere near Yamcha at Saiyan Saga, what are you trying to argue?It seems you're just arguing every point even if it has no relevance. You have tried to handwave Yamcha as a moon buster/+ by using Saibamen craters and other such nonsense.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Umm that was an entirely different piccolo... we also were never given an offical rating on the demon kings pl when he did that city busting attack and we know he can instantly increase his ki.  So do you have any way to prove king piccolos city busting attack was actually weaker than that blast?



Wrong. That's Piccolo Jr. in both sets of scans.

Only difference is that he's much more powerful during the Raditz encounter due to training for five years.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 10, 2014)

this guy thinks a blast from a bloodlusted stronger character would be weaker than the vastly inferior dude's from several arcs back

lol


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

> but yeah enviromental damage should be the best indicator ubtil they state they can control the blast size radius



We should do this with Naruto whenever it downplays them. So Minato got pierced by glass shards in the flashbacks when saving Naruto from Tobi!Madara, guess anything that hurts him is glass shard+


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 10, 2014)

roof level Galaxian Explosion is gonna make a comeback


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> this guy thinks a blast from a bloodlusted stronger character would be weaker than the vastly inferior dude's from several arcs back
> 
> lol



Yes, yes he is. He's trying to say Yamcha can't even do Piccolo Daimou's city busting by arguing we don't know his power level. Even if true, this would ignore that Goku and Piccolo Jr are stronger by the time they fight which is 5 years before Raditz, Raditz was 1,200 or 1,500 and Yamcha was 1,200 by Saiyan Saga not factoring training with Kami.


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## Fujita (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> It means you can react to space time techniques so hiraishin, kaguyas technique or IT.



These are teleportation-style things, right? 

There's no standard where reacting to somebody teleporting is inherently fast (unless you're literally noticing them the instant they appear, which is... rare with these feats). It depends more on who is teleporting and their own speed than it does the teleportation itself. Well, by and large. I'm sure there are exceptions. 

What are some of these reaction feats, then?


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

exploding Glass shards speed> Base Minato's teleportation, flashback says so!


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## AgentAAA (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> @AgentAAA You really want to go that route? guy can beat perfect cell with just physical hits, since Ssj2 gohan did so with just punches and kickes.. and when he punched the ground after goku died it put a few small cracks in the ground. Now for Guy when he doesnt even connect with the ground he puts holes miles deep in the earth. since gohan beats perfect cell with a few physical hits and guy has better physical feats all guy would need is one punch to his gut and hes spitting our 18. perfect cell can at full power can one shot asj goku can is vastly superior to yamcha in every way.
> 
> yamcha gets owned man accept it.
> 
> @Bigisaac ill get around to that post either tonite or tomorrow.


Geez, that's totally true since Cell gets no powerscaling. I guess Maito gai, wihle we're at it, should easily blitz and destroy kaguya, sasuke, and naruto, too. Why are those guys even in this thread?


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG change your name to SMH plz.


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## BigIsaac (Aug 10, 2014)

Btw, Fury, what is that in your sig? The sci-fi Gate of Babylon?


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Wrong. That's Piccolo Jr. in both sets of scans.
> 
> Only difference is that he's much more powerful during the Raditz encounter due to training for five years.



Oh my mistake.. im not gunna lie i only clicked on the second set of links. But for the first example that attack was able to form a fulk beam. the one against radditz was point blank so maybe it couldnt fully form or something to that effect.



Crimson Dragoon said:


> this guy thinks a blast from a bloodlusted stronger character would be weaker than the vastly inferior dude's from several arcs back
> 
> lol



So kid buu is stronger than super buu? Super buu must be vastly inferior due to. him a couple arcs back compared to kid buu....





Fujita said:


> These are teleportation-style things, right?
> 
> There's no standard where reacting to somebody teleporting is inherently fast (unless you're literally noticing them the instant they appear, which is... rare with these feats). It depends more on who is teleporting and their own speed than it does the teleportation itself. Well, by and large. I'm sure there are exceptions.
> 
> What are some of these reaction feats, then?



Madara was able to react the panel tobirama and minato both used their respected hiriashin jutsus. both these jutsus are a space time jutsu. and again its not like they teleported in started to move then madara reacts... madara reacts the very first panel they are appearing in. and thwn seventh gate guy was able to close the gap on madara without getting reacted to nor countered... so he should be at the very least aroundr that level of speed if not faster.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> SSMG change your name to SMH plz.



Make me


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Oh my mistake.. im not gunna lie i only clicked on the second set of links. But for the first example that attack was able to form a fulk beam. the one against radditz was point blank so maybe it couldnt fully form or something to that effect.



Which changes... what?

Why is Piccolo so terrified of Raditz's ability to withstand that tiny blast when he has attacks capable of wiping out cities and flattening whole islands?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> So kid buu is stronger than super buu? Super buu must be vastly inferior due to. him a couple arcs back compared to kid buu....



you know perfectly well what I meant 

but please, by all means, keep playing dumb 

if you're being serious, I apologize for your mental condition


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Which changes... what?
> 
> Why is Piccolo so terrified of Raditz's ability to withstand that tiny blast when he has attacks capable of wiping out cities and flattening whole islands?



Well im saying this blast could also do these things his previous blasts could do if it formed fully... or maybe piccolo was just shocked that there is someone put there besides goku who can withstand his strongest non LoD attack.


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## Fujita (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Madara was able to react the panel tobirama and minato both used their respected hiriashin jutsus. both these jutsus are a space time jutsu. and again its not like they teleported in started to move then madara reacts... madara reacts the very first panel they are appearing in. and thwn seventh gate guy was able to close the gap on madara without getting reacted to nor countered... so he should be at the very least aroundr that level of speed if not faster.



"a panel" is not a set timeframe 

You could easily have them appearing and Madara noticing on one panel. This is... extremely common. You have something happening and then people going "!" on panel, without this being any sort of a certain measure of speed.


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## Yami Munesanzun (Aug 10, 2014)

> So kid buu is stronger than super buu? Super buu must be vastly inferior due to. him a couple arcs back compared to kid buu....



By all means, Kid Buu is far more a deadly/dangerous/threatening presence than Super Buu, but that's just because of Kid Buu's unrestrained nature. And Kid Buu's planet buster attack; tho', we can _assume_ Super Buu could pull that off, but w/e


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> you know perfectly well what I meant
> 
> but please, by all means, keep playing dumb
> 
> if you're being serious, I apologize for your mental condition



 I didnt know that if i dont powerscale exactly as the naruto forum outskirts battledome members it means i have a mental condition.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 10, 2014)

No it's your avatar and posting style that makes people think that.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Fujita said:


> "a panel" is not a set timeframe
> 
> You could easily have them appearing and Madara noticing on one panel. This is... extremely common. You have something happening and then people going "!" on panel, without this being any sort of a certain measure of speed.


Having the reaction in the same panel of a teleporter appearing is as close as a sign of speed youre ever going to get in a manga... the artist literally couldnt do anything other then this to show them reacting. 

but okay the fact that he called the teleporter slow helps my point.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> No it's your avatar and posting style that makes people think that.



My avatar is awesome. you cant hate on it.. and my posting style yeah its crap ill admit that.. im posting from my phone most of the time and cant really prof read my bigger posts.


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## Fujita (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Having the reaction in the same panel of a teleporter appearing is as close as a sign of speed youre ever going to get in a manga... the artist literally couldnt do anything other then this to show them reacting.
> 
> but okay the fact that he called the teleporter slow helps my point.



post it (when you get a chance with the phone thing, or maybe Darth can help me here, since wiki crawling is not getting me the chapter)

I'll be arguing about something I haven't seen otherwise


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Well im saying this blast could also do these things his previous blasts could do if it formed fully... or maybe piccolo was just shocked that there is someone put there besides goku who can withstand his strongest non LoD attack.



What are you basing this on? Concentrated attacks aren't a thing until the Android Saga according to you, so the energy displayed there is all the power that attack had.

And Piccolo flat out states that he was terrified to the point of paralysis. That's a bit more than surprise that someone else can withstand his third strongest attack.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Aug 10, 2014)

This thread has become far more amusing than I thought possible.


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## Jet Pistol (Aug 10, 2014)

This thread gave me a good chuckle.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 10, 2014)

Moving on to Exhibit B.





A heavily suppressed Nappa casually obliterates everything around him with an explosion the size of a country.






A full power Nappa fires his most powerful technique into a blast of equal strength, the combined explosion of which does no real collateral damage whatsoever.

Hm... what could it mean?


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Fujita said:


> post it (when you get a chance with the phone thing, or maybe Darth can help me here, since wiki crawling is not getting me the chapter)
> 
> I'll be arguing about something I haven't seen otherwise



Heres the feat of madara reacting the panel tobirama appears.

i know sometimes people have problems with this site so its chapter 661 page 9.

 and here is madara calling him the former fastet in the world and although he doesnt call him slow outright.. just that hes pathetic.. but this is inregards to speed still it seems.
incase my link doesnt work that is chapter 661 still page 12.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Moving on to Exhibit B.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It could mean both parties use the exact same force which would thwn cancel eaxh other out with no effects. also one is a wave te other was a beam so different types of attacks.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> It could mean both parties use the exact same force which would thwn cancel eaxh other out with no effects. also one is a wave te other was a beam so different types of attacks.



Energy doesn't work like that, I'm afraid.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Its fiction.. id assume energy works however the author writes it to work.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Its fiction.. id assume energy works however the author writes it to work.



you're catching on, congratulations


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

The Nappa one was multi city though, the explosion was flashy but the collateral does not match up. Piccolo did Moonbust however and Nappa>>>>Piccolo so yeah Country to Continental level would be cake for Nappa using two fingers for sure.


The Collateral is given here. 

But at this point SSMG is just moronically ignoring feats because the writer does'nt show the exact same collateral every time. Kishimoto does it too.

But if SSMG wants to play it this way, all feats done 2-3 times must be ignored for Naruto as well so they go down below Country-Planetary level.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

@Crimson dragon Well thats te basis of my whole argument of the z fighters being able to concentrate their ki in the android arc. it wasnt written in until then.

@tranquil fury. nappa didnt fire a beam into the planet.. he raised a ki wave like attack which isnt the same as a beam attack.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> you're catching on, congratulations



So only 10 more pages to go before he understands 



BigIsaac said:


> Btw, Fury, what is that in your sig? The sci-fi Gate of Babylon?



No, it's the Crack of Helheim or Ulimited Fruit Basket Works where the main character summons his fruit basket based weapons/powers and spams them at once in Fruity Warlord Goodness to defeat fruit based zombies.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Well thats te basis of my whole argument of the z fighters being able to concentrate their ki in the android arc. it wasnt written in until then.



It does'nt have too, it's fiction, collateral won't always be consistent. We have multiple feats in Dragonball going from City to Island/Mountain level and even higher plus statements that say higher including planet busting feats. Trying to say BUT SAIBAMEN MADE LESS THAN CITY LEVEL CRATERS SO YAMCHA CAN'T MOONBUST is a horrible argument in a series with increasing powers and generally linear powerscaling.

Piccolo's special beam cannon though clearly focuses on penetration instead of beam AOE for example.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 10, 2014)

Since King Piccolo was already brought up, let's use him for Exhibit C.






King Piccolo's strongest attack blows up a city.





Eight years later, Goku's strongest attack looks like it could _maybe_ blow up a house. For some reason he's very impressed that someone capable of effortlessly beating up himself and Piccolo at the same time could stop this blast with one hand.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

> nappa didnt fire a beam into the planet.. he raised a ki wave like attack which isnt the same as a beam attack.



What the hell does it matter?The power behind the attack is the same, nothing in Dragonball says beams or beam waves are different. Dragonball violates quite a lot of laws of physics but the beam thing is straight forward collateral inconsistencies aside.

Are you saying the power behind the beam is the same but the collateral is lesser?How does that downplay Yamcha again?I don't think you have an argument that makes sense in the context of what you claimed to be originally arguing for.

Yamcha>>Piccolo who blew up the moon, he can do it too but easier than Piccolo.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Yeah we jave feats that people are able to do those things.. and then we have feats later on that make this series wildly inconsistent. like cell getting beat by ssj2 gohans fist when ss2 gohans fists get out feated by his 4 year old oozaru feats. So i guess i should start to powerscale more directly for dbz.. i just dont like powerscaling unless i have to.

But okay okay enough about all that....

current narutos bijuudama rasenshirkun is about moon level...do you guys think this would be able to damage saiyan arc yamcha? he can use 6 at once as well.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

Naruto is also wildly inconsistent in collateral but you have no problem with that.



> like cell getting beat by ssj2 gohans fist



Gai was'nt beating Juubi with his fists too eh?
Raikage did not power bomb a much weaker Sasuke once?

Since when does someone using their fists mean the guy getting hurt is weak or not stronger than beings lower in power?Unless you believe the 40 tons nonsense which contradicts the damage they do with their fists, this is quite stupid.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 10, 2014)

And here I had another 23rd Budokai Piccolo feat ready for Exhibit D. Man, Piccolo was awesome as a villain.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 10, 2014)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> And here I had another 23rd Budokai Piccolo feat ready for Exhibit D. Man, Piccolo was awesome as a villain.



the good old days of Dragonball


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

I still prefer Base Minato showing some pain as he pulls out glass shrapnel in the flashback while barely escaping an exploding house to save baby Naruto with his super teleportation that pwned so many top tiers in his time.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

> the good old days of Dragonball



PiccoloJr, Frieza, gumdrop Vegetto, Mirai Trunks, Android 18, Android 16, SSJ2 Teen Gohan gone berserk and Vegeta were worth part 2 but yeah, Toriyama clearly stopped enjoying it post Frieza saga.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Naruto is also wildly inconsistent in collateral but you have no problem with that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nah man naruto is way more consistent than dbz. ever since the 5 bijuudamas were displaced by naruto every attack in this war has gotten biger when used by more and more powerful people.


But te fist example is mainly due to when gohan punches the ground and doesnt put a crater in with his fist yet he put craters in with his fists and could punch over rock pilars like nothing when hes oozaru.

Or piccolo can blow up a moon. But hes later impressed by nappas little crater move he put into tr ground when facing tien.

theres nothing of this sort of inconsistenvy in naruto


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> And here I had another 23rd Budokai Piccolo feat ready for Exhibit D. Man, Piccolo was awesome as a villain.



Im not gunna lie man your examples had me sweatin lol.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

> Or piccolo can blow up a moon. But hes later impressed by nappas little crater move he put into tr ground when facing tien



A fatigued post Danzo Sasuke keeping with Naruto post Pein arc
Minato barely escaping sharpnel
How much damage did 8th Gate Gai do compared to Country level explosions again?
Temari hurting 3rd Raikage
etc


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 10, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> PiccoloJr, Frieza, gumdrop Vegetto, Mirai Trunks, Android 18, Android 16, SSJ2 Teen Gohan gone berserk and Vegeta were worth part 2 but yeah, Toriyama clearly stopped enjoying it post Frieza saga.



Would call what Gohan did more of a... Tranquil Fury, if you will, but berserk works fine too I guess 

And I just died a little more inside...


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

Your argument is LALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU by cherry picking collateral which in fiction is rarely consistent and sometimes downplays power. Consistent feats and statements emphasize they can do more than house size craters but the fact you have the audacity to claim house level threatens Piccolo Jr is hilarious.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 10, 2014)

Finally, I'd like to point out that the Saibaman's self destruction didn't leave a crater. It didn't even char the grass Yamcha was standing by.

If we're using collateral damage as some kind of accurate power measurement the Saibaman's self destruct is literally one of the weakest attacks ever seen in the entirety of the Dragon Ball series.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

I just realised you said they could control collateral with Ki post Android saga yet still deliberately used examples of that arc or beyond to downplay despite acknowledging that point.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Would call what Gohan did more of a... Tranquil Fury, if you will, but berserk works fine too I guess
> 
> And I just died a little more inside...



Still more funny than the rest of this thread.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

> I'd like to point out that Yamcha's self destruction didn't leave a crate



Saibaman you mean but don't blame you for confusing Yamcha with fodder.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 10, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Saibaman you mean but don't blame you for confusing Yamcha with fodder.



Does it really make a difference in the end?


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> A fatigued post Danzo Sasuke keeping with Naruto post Pein arc
> Minato barely escaping sharpnel
> How much damage did 8th Gate Gai do compared to Country level explosions again?
> Temari hurting 3rd Raikage
> etc



The first example is countered by the fact that naruto wasnt trying to kill.. he was in base and sasuke had just come into contact with zetsu so he wouldnt be completely exhausted(or was the zetsu contact a slpit second later?) but even still that can be explained.

The sharpnel may have been in minatos leg before he teleported maybe?

Night guy completely dwarfed a mountain range and his EE punch sent madara miles underground.. these are the greatest physical feats in the manga so not too inconsistent by my books.

and winds justus are super effective against raiton and that is how her technique did what it did to the raikage.. which wasnt any last damage anyways.


yeah man even if these couldnt be explained its not as inconsistent as cell arc ssj2 gohans punches barely making a dent in the ground. because his punches are scaled to be atleast planet destruction tier if not higher.


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## Reznor (Aug 10, 2014)




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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 10, 2014)

> The first example is countered by the fact that naruto wasnt trying to kill



He said they were equal and that they would kill each other if they fought, he quite liked a double suicide with his lover.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Aug 10, 2014)

I hope everyone doesn't end up really hounding on SSMG here, as silly as his logic is we need a few people like him.


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## Fujita (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Heres the feat of madara reacting the panel tobirama appears.
> 
> i know sometimes people have problems with this site so its chapter 661 page 9.
> 
> ...



Okay, so, basically, Tobirama appears like a swing's distance from Madara and then takes the swing (which Madara dodges). Minato does something similar.

with that in mind 



SSMG said:


> Having the reaction in the same panel of a teleporter appearing is as close as a sign of speed youre ever going to get in a manga... the artist literally couldnt do anything other then this to show them reacting.
> 
> but okay the fact that he called the teleporter slow helps my point.



The number of panels it takes for somebody to react is completely meaningless. A panel lasts as long as the events on it. Something very slow can take place on one panel (a conversation, or a normal human doing something) while something very fast can take multiple panels (somebody flying long distances) 

As for what the events on the panel say about Madara's speed... he's fast enough to process that his enemy is there and then counter what they're doing before they pull off an attack. How fast he is in doing these things depends completely on how fast his opponent is, since the teleport is instant. 

That teleportation was used doesn't tell us anything certain about his speed, beyond giving him a shorter window of time in which to react. If I teleport and attack you, it'll take a lot more time than if some guy with massively hypersonic attack speed does the same thing. So there's absolutely no level of speed that's naturally associated with teleportation feats like this.


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## LoveLessNHK (Aug 10, 2014)

But seriously, how fast is Yamcha?


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> He said they were equal and that they would kill each other if they fought, he quite liked a double suicide with his lover.



But this was due to naruto being able to sense indras will in sasuke and ashuras in himself. I dont think that line wasnt about their current states. Later on back in the village naruto conifirms this when neji and kiba raise up this exact issue.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

Fujita said:


> Okay, so, basically, Tobirama appears like a swing's distance from Madara and then takes the swing (which Madara dodges). Minato does something similar.
> 
> with that in mind
> 
> ...



I agree with what youre saying how panel time in and of itself doesnt prove anything about speed and im not denying that. But when the technique in question is an instant one,we can only use the first panel of them appearing as the closest to when they did execute the technique. But in the panel i showed you it has the words for the bottom right corner. Meaning this is when he actually is using thetechnique. And madara is having a ! sign indicating he is reacting to him in that same instant. i agree it could very well be how youre saying by madara reacting after the. teleport was executed but im just not sure. If kishi wanted to illustrate this he could have done so much easier by putting them into 2seperate panels.

Also tobiramas hiriashin and the swing arent seperate actions. his jutsu is literally translated to fly thunder god slash so its part of the teleport.


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## Fujita (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> I agree with what youre saying how panel time in and of itself doesnt prove anything about speed and im not denying that. But when the technique in question is an instant one,we can only use the first panel of them appearing as the closest to when they did execute the technique. But in the panel i showed you it has the words for the bottom right corner. Meaning this is when he actually is using thetechnique. And madara is having a ! sign indicating he is reacting to him in that same instant. i agree it could very well be how youre saying by madara reacting after the. teleport was executed but im just not sure. If kishi wanted to illustrate this he could have done so much easier by putting them into 2seperate panels.
> 
> Also tobiramas hiriashin and the swing arent seperate actions. his jutsu is literally translated to fly thunder god slash so its part of the teleport.



Huh?

He appears, which is the teleport

when he appears, his hand is pulled back 

the next panel, he actually extends his arm to stab Madara, which happens at whatever the hell his normal stabbing speed is 

if it was part of the teleport why didn't he teleport his kunai inside Madara or something

Edit: And why would he not be reacting after the teleport happens? A teleport is instant. Are you assuming that Madara has literally instant reactions


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## Hachibi (Aug 10, 2014)

This thread really evolved for the last time I saw it 
Anyways, reposting the ways Nardo team can win:
-Kaguya's BFR
-Well-placed Kamui
-Sasuke's teleport + Kaguya's Bone
-depending of the time, Infinite Tsukuyomi


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## Lurko (Aug 10, 2014)

Yamcha is too fast for the Naruto team, they die before they know what hit them.


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## LoveLessNHK (Aug 10, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Yamcha is too fast for the Naruto team, they die before they know what hit them.



How fast is he though?


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## King Kakarot (Aug 10, 2014)

LoveLessNHK said:


> How fast is he though?





add in the kaioken multiplers  x3(he's at the very least stronger than saiyan saga vegeta)


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

@ Fujita 
Im mainly talking about madaras ! ractipn panel.. not to the physical movement of tobirama after the fact. 

But for why the slash doesnt happen as the teleport happens we later see the seal is on the kunai itself. so youre right on how this instant the slash isnt in the same action as the telepprt. this could also be why tobirama doesnt do as you say as slash right into madara(he did this against izuna it seemed).


But yeah why not? He. internally reacts the panel an instantaneous jutsu is used.


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## Fujita (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> But yeah why not? He. internally reacts the panel an instantaneous jutsu is used.





clearly the random Marine has instant reactions because he's in the same panel as an instantaneous technique 

time to upgrade all the One Piece wiki profiles


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## LoveLessNHK (Aug 10, 2014)

King Kakarot said:


> add in the kaioken multiplers  x3(he's at the very least stronger than saiyan saga vegeta)



So mach 1,535 x 3 then?

Mach 4,605?

Aren't the god tiers of Naruto around mach 4,000 as well?

Because their speeds are so close, there is no blitzing, but also, Kakashi and Kaguya both have the ability to bfr. I'm not sure if Kakashi is quite up to par with the others, but unless he's tagged first, he should be able to get a shot on Yamcha.

Also, I'm not sure how everyone treats Sasuke's teleporting, but if it bypasses durability, couldn't he teleport his sword into Yamcha's brain stem to instagib him?

This clearly relies in their speeds being what I think it is, but I really don't think this rofldbz stomp simply because the Team has both hax and speed to go against Yamcha's speed and durability/DC.

Right? Just tell me I'm an idiot if I'm completely off base here.


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## SSMG (Aug 10, 2014)

@Fujita
 I dont read one piece so i dont know too much about those techniques to have too much of an imput on that.

But is that just a technique that's described as instantenous? Or is it an actual teleportation technique? If it's the former it may be similar amaterasu from naruto? Because if so people have reacted to that many times, yet the same person (raikage) could dodge ammy but couldnt react to minatos s/t teleport.
If its the former it may be legit.


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## AgentAAA (Aug 10, 2014)

last I checked that calc's still low-balling given we decided the moon just happened to be closer in that panel despite several other statements putting it where it normally was. Should be closer to mach 3000 for that feat if I recall correctly.


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## Lurko (Aug 10, 2014)

LoveLessNHK said:


> So mach 1,535 x 3 then?
> 
> Mach 4,605?
> 
> ...



Yeah speed definitely is everything in this fight bit Yamcha got alot faster after sayian saga.


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## AgentAAA (Aug 10, 2014)

mach 4,605+ which gives him a bit leeway, but yeah, this is in no way a stomp. It's also not mountain-busting DBZ, which was the main issue people had.


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## trance (Aug 10, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Yeah speed definitely is everything in this fight bit Yamcha got alot faster after sayian saga.



He got faster but by an unknown amount. At the bare minimum, he should be as strong and as fast as Saiyan Saga base Goku by the EoS. He definitely doesn't benefit from being scaled to Freeza's FTL feat of blitzing 10x Kaioken Goku but he still snags the relativistic yield, since Saiyan Saga Goku is undoubtedly superior to Raditz.


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## Fujita (Aug 10, 2014)

SSMG said:


> @Fujita
> I dont read one piece so i dont know too much about those techniques to have too much of an imput on that.
> 
> But is that just a technique that's described as instantenous? Or is it an actual teleportation technique? If it's the former it may be similar amaterasu from naruto? Because if so people have reacted to that many times, yet the same person (raikage) could dodge ammy but couldnt react to minatos s/t teleport.
> If its the former it may be legit.


 
Well, yeah, the technique is a teleport

and the guy that "instantly" reacts in the same panel is a random fodder. Meaning that if we apply your standard every character that matters in One Piece would have instant reactions

unless we took the more reasonable option that the cannonball appeared and he then noticed that it was there and that ordinary causality did not stop being a thing just because there was an "instant" technique that happened somewhere in that scene


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## Nevan (Aug 10, 2014)

Just passing by to say that the mach 1.5k value is BS


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 10, 2014)

Dragon Ball speed debate redux.

Yeah, this isn't going to end well.


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## Inuhanyou (Aug 10, 2014)

Make it any yamcha to the beginning of DBZ and current naruto can beat him by himself. Yamcha has no area of effect for his attacks at all(his kamehamheha in the tournament only blew up a part of the stadium), he can barely fly if even, and his speed...is irrelevant to a person who can continent blast. He won't be able to do that until atleast fighting the saiyamen..and maybe not even then


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 10, 2014)

Saiyan Arc Yamcha can obliterate more than half the planet with a single blast, what with being able to beat a Raditz-level being 

there is no "maybe not even then", instead it's "yeah, he can waste all of them with a single blast"


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## Inuhanyou (Aug 10, 2014)

FINE. Anything before kami's training then. Ya happy!?

Its actually quite absurd how strong they got in comparison to how strong they were before that, and then they hardly progress throughout the story. Sure they get stronger, but if they were still going at that rate, they'd have kept up with goku in no time


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 10, 2014)

Saiyans love stealing the spotlight, what can you do


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## Lurko (Aug 11, 2014)

NightmareCinema said:


> Dragon Ball speed debate redux.
> 
> Yeah, this isn't going to end well.



Yeah, speed debates never go well.


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