# Jozu Vs Sabo



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 12, 2015)

Fighters; -Jozu (Jozu with two arms)- Vs- Sabo-

Location; Greenbit

Distance; 30 meters

Scenario 1; base Sabo, or more commonly refered to as Pre-mera mera Sabo

Scenario 2; Mera Mera Sabo

Who wins?


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## Amol (Feb 12, 2015)

Scenario 1:
Sabo wins very high diff .
Scenario 2:
Sabo wins high diff .


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 12, 2015)

Sabo will have a better shot at defeating Jozu with the Mera Mera no mi at his disposal than without it by solely exchanging physical blows in conjunction with Haki against someone much stronger than him physically whose physical feats are greater than his. Sabo also has no way of penetrating through Jozu's diamond defense that withstood Mihawk's attack without a single scratch on it. There is absolutely no way that Sabo is physically stronger than Jozu at this point. In regards to Haki, Jozu's haki should be superior to Sabo's because he has more experience with it and the fact that he managed to make Aokiji bleed.

Jozu wins scenario one with High difficulty. The second scenario can go either way.


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## Furinji Saiga (Feb 12, 2015)

I consider Jozu and current Sabo on the same level

Jozu takes first scenario high difficulty
can go either way for the second one.


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## Yuki (Feb 12, 2015)

LyricalMessiah said:


> Sabo will have a better shot at defeating Jozu with the Mera Mera no mi at his disposal than without it by solely exchanging physical blows in conjunction with Haki against someone much stronger than him physically whose physical feats are greater than his. Sabo also has no way of penetrating through Jozu's diamond defense that withstood Mihawk's attack without a single scratch on it. There is absolutely no way that Sabo is physically stronger than Jozu at this point. In regards to Haki, Jozu's haki should be superior to Sabo's because he has more experience with it and the fact that he managed to make Aokiji bleed.
> 
> Jozu wins scenario one with High difficulty. The second scenario can go either way.



Yes, Sabo can damage Jozu's diamond. Diamond is mainly defense vs slashing attacks. Something Sabo does not do. Against Sabo's claw attacks Jozu would be better off remaining in his normal form.

You see, if diamond is cracked (Not chipped, cracked. Big difference.), that crack could follow through Jozu's entire body until it reaches an escape point, this could be very damaging to Jozu, so honestly his DF could be a nuisance here.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 12, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Yes, Sabo can damage Jozu's diamond. Diamond is mainly defense vs slashing attacks. Something Sabo does not do. Against Sabo's claw attacks Jozu would be better off remaining in his normal form.
> 
> You see, if diamond is cracked (Not chipped, cracked. Big difference.), that crack could follow through Jozu's entire body until it reaches an escape point, this could be very damaging to Jozu, so honestly his DF could be a nuisance here.



There is no evidence that every logical rules and concept in our world are generally followed strictly by the One Piece world. It's a fictional world wherein tons of illogical things that contradict the logic in our world occur. There is no evidence that Jozu's diamond durability would get instantly 'cracked' as you presume. You cannot apply real life concepts to a fictional world that had a man remain unscathed after he was hit by an attack from the renown World's strongest swordsman who swung his sword that generated tons of destructive energy in the direction Jozu had intercepted. 

Luffy's rubber body managed to not get burned by a lot of Enel's electrical attacks that produced millions of volts in spite of rubber being prone to burning when subjected to a certain amount of volts NOT remotely close to the high intense level of volts produced from Enel's electricity that Luffy was hit by on multiple occasions. Luffy should have normally been turned to crisp when hit by Enel's electric attack that produced 200,000,000 volts, much less 20,000,000 volts. There should be no reason for physical trauma to work more effectively on Jozu's diamond defense than cuts produced from slashes.

The energy produced from Mihawk's slash was very great but failed to put a single scratch on Jozu. Basically, energy is the same. The only difference between energy produced from a sharp object/cut and energy produced from a blunt object is that they both have distinctively different surface areas with different methods of physically affecting a thing/matter. Just because diamonds are known to be weak against blunt force in our world does not mean that Jozu's diamond will succumb to Sabo's physical blows. However, even with these real life facts on diamonds and their weak spots, we can't apply something in our world to say that it's how the One piece world functions.

 Just because diamonds are known for their weakness when being recipients of force produced by a blunt object, it does not mean that Jozu's large and fairly wide diamond body will get cracked by Sabo's physical blows. In conclusion, we cannot apply things from our world to the One piece's world. To assume that a fictional world, where tons of illogical things are in violation of the laws of physics that bound us in our world, follows similar concepts to our world in regards to logic is where you're wrong. Besides, Haki can strengthen Jozu's defense even beyond the almost impenetrable defense of his.


Jozu has yet to cover his body entirely with diamonds so Sabo can attack the parts not covered with diamonds to injure him. His physical blows won't be completely ineffective against Jozu's diamond defense and can still manage to at least push Jozu back by a few meters. I am not implying that Jozu's defense is impervious to any attacks or blunt force. What I have been trying to say is that until Sabo shows the necessary striking force to bypass his diamond defense that withstood Mihawk's slash, then I don't see him being able to completely bypass it.

Someone like Garp would surely be able to I reckon.


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## trance (Feb 12, 2015)

S1: Sabo is a powerful brawler but Jozu is more powerful. Still, he's not far away from Jozu, so he puts up a good fight, especially considering he's outright demonstrated greater skill than Jozu.

S2: With the Mera Mera, he can naturally pressure Jozu much more. Inclined to say Sabo edges it.


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## Yuki (Feb 12, 2015)

LyricalMessiah said:


> There is no evidence that every logical rules and concept in our world are generally followed strictly by the One Piece world. It's a fictional world wherein tons of illogical things that contradict the logic in our world occur. There is no evidence that Jozu's diamond durability would get instantly 'cracked' as you presume. You cannot apply real life concepts to a fictional world that had a man remain unscathed after he was hit by an attack from the renown World's strongest swordsman who swung his sword that generated tons of destructive energy in the direction Jozu had intercepted.
> 
> Luffy's rubber body managed to not get burned by a lot of Enel's electrical attacks that produced millions of volts in spite of rubber being prone to burning when subjected to a certain amount of volts NOT remotely close to the high intense level of volts produced from Enel's electricity that Luffy was hit by on multiple occasions. Luffy should have normally been turned to crisp when hit my Enel's electric attack that produced 200,000,000 volts, much less 20,000,000 volts. There should be no reason for physical trauma to work more effectively on Jozu's diamond defense than cuts produced from slashes.
> 
> ...



You also can't say that real life logic does not occur because its a fictional universe. 

Once again, diamond cannot be cut so saying because his diamond can stop a slashing attack, (albeit a very powerful one) that it can also stop a blunt attack is illogical and not true.

Diamonds weakness is blunt attacks just as electric current weakness is Rubber. Oda would not leave that out of his manga. 

Also the reason that lightning would not melt Luffy's rubber is the same reason why if you hold a 1000 degree fire under your hand for 1/10 of a second your hand would not burn.


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## Bernkastel (Feb 12, 2015)

Scenario 1: Jozu very high diff.
Scenario 2: Could go either way.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 12, 2015)

Jozu high mid - low high diff.
Jozu high - high high diff/extreme.


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## Coruscation (Feb 12, 2015)

Jozu high diffs pre DF Sabo.

Jozu extreme diffs Mera Sabo. He has the superior portrayal against an Admiral. Sabo fought a stalling for time/faking Fujitora and was still on the losing end. Jozu fought an Aokiji who had no reason to hold back other than collateral concerns (which Fuji did as well to a huge degree on top of his stalling). We didn't see their battle, but we know that Jozu looked fine after some time of fighting, before he was taken off-guard. The main difference between the scenarios is that we know Fuji was stalling and never being serious whilst Aokiji was fighting one of the most important targets of a warring enemy faction. 

In the end it's very possible Mera Sabo > or = Jozu given his standing and that MF feats and portrayals aren't the most reliable ones, but Jozu's respectable depiction in the MF war gets him the benefit of the doubt as things stand.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 12, 2015)

c





Juvia. said:


> You also can't say that real life logic does not occur because its a fictional universe.
> 
> Once again, diamond cannot be cut so saying because his diamond can stop a slashing attack, (albeit a very powerful one) that it can also stop a blunt attack is illogical and not true.
> 
> ...



Straw-man. I never once said that there exists no logic in the One piece world reminiscent of the logic in our world that we're bound to. If you can find me one statement from the post of mine that you quoted above that says that real life logic does not exist in the One piece world because it is a fictional world, then your accusation will have more weighting to it. 

Just for the sake of clarity, I never said there is no similar logic from our world in the One piece world. I said we cannot apply the logic in our world to that of the One piece world because it's a fictional world with a lot of unique and abstract logic exclusive to just One piece that are in contradiction with the logic in our world. You can't associate traits from our world and apply it to the One piece world to say what goes and what does not.

Do you not understand the contradiction in what you just said? As I've explained to you, rubber is immune to electricity depending on the amount of volts we're referring to but at a certain amount of volts rubber would melt. Luffy survived being hit by electrical volts that'd normally burn rubber in an instant. How come One piece cannot have rules exclusive to it only when the natural durability of diamond and what can affect it is concerned when there have been rules in our world getting bent by Oda such as with Luffy's rubber Vs Enel's electricity?

Luffy was seen harmlessly withstanding large amount of volts from Enel's electrical attacks that would normally burn rubber effortlessly without being burnt to crisp. That's an example amongst the many of the One piece logic bending the inherent rules in our world and not being similar, making any association of traits of one world to another nonsensical. Diamond in the One piece world isn't necessarily similar to the diamond in our world in terms of what and what cannot damage it, especially since we're referring to a fictional world where Jozu's diamond defense withstood an attack from the World's greatest swordsman who produced the necessary cutting force that would be more than enough to cut the diamond in our world. The reason for which we're unable to cut diamonds with a sword or knife is due to us lacking the right amount of force behind our swing to cut diamonds. 

That's wrong because Luffy SHOULD be weak to HIGH amounts of electrical volts just like how RUBBER in our world would normally get INCINERATED when subjected to high amounts of electrical volts. That means the One piece world does not adhere strictly to the real life concepts in our world. Therefore, Jozu can also have unique exceptions for his Diamond ability not similar to the mechanics of diamonds in our world. The immunity of diamonds to blunt force cannot be a trait associated to Jozu because we're speaking about a fictional world with tons of illogical things that are in violation of the logic that bound in our world. That means there is a unique logic in the One piece world that bends the rules in our world.


The analogy I made is a reasonable analogy of there being substances that can withstand what they should normally not be able to. Rubber is not a good conductor of electrical currents although would be affected when subjected to high electrical volts due to the heat produced from the electricity. Luffy's rubber withstood large amounts of volts that would normally incinerate rubber with sheer ease. That means that the One piece world does not strictly adhere to certain rules pertaining to substances/logic as our world does because it's a fictional world, nothing more, nothing less. Thus, by that same line of reasoning, we should also expect the Diamond in the one piece world to not have similar traits of being weak to blunt force as our world's.

Besides, do you not see the inconsistency in clinging on to the assumption that Jozu is very susceptible to blunt force since just about anyone could defeat him with one blow to his diamond armor with a hammer? You've been vague about the level of force from a blunt object it'd take to shatter Jozu's defense.

No. Luffy should have gotten incinerated by Enel's lightning. Lightning in our world produces high temperatures of heat that rubber would have absolutely no defense against and be burned to crisp. However, since clearly this is a fictional world we're talking about, it's no surprise Luffy survived being subjected to millions of volts because Oda simply chose NOT to apply the logic in our world to the fictional world of One piece. The same thing can happen to Jozu's diamond defense with the conventional weakness diamond has against blunt force in our world being manipulated by Oda for it (Blunt force) not to have any effects on Jozu's diamond defense.


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## Ruse (Feb 12, 2015)

Furinji Saiga said:


> I consider Jozu and current Sabo on the same level
> 
> Jozu takes first scenario high difficulty
> can go either way for the second one.



Agree with this


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## Raiden34 (Feb 12, 2015)

Two arms Jozu with high difficulty.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 12, 2015)

Jozu punches him in the face.


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## Yuki (Feb 12, 2015)

LyricalMessiah said:


> c
> 
> Straw-man. I never once said that there exists no logic in the One piece world reminiscent of the logic in our world that bounds us. If you can find me one statement from the post of mine that you quoted above that says that real life logic does not exist in the One piece world because it is a fictional world, then your accusation will have more weighting to it. Just for the sake of clarity, I never said there is no similar logic from our world in the One piece world. I said we cannot apply the logic in our world to that of the One piece world because it's a fictional world with a lot of unique and abstract logic exclusive to just One piece that are in contradiction with the logic in our world. You can't associate traits from our world and apply it to the One piece world to say what goes and what does not.
> 
> ...



-_-

You type WAY too much.

I'm not reading all that. >_>


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## Gohara (Feb 13, 2015)

1. Sabo wins with high to extremely high difficulty.  Jozu is physically stronger and has a powerful Devil Fruit.  However, Sabo has better combat ability and likely has better Haki.

2. Sabo wins with mid to high difficulty.  Jozu is physically stronger- but Sabo has better combat ability, a more powerful Devil Fruit, and likely has better Haki.


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## barreltheif (Feb 14, 2015)

Sabo narrowly loses without the fruit and narrowly wins with it.


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## Kaiser (Feb 14, 2015)

Jozu mid-high diffs pre-mera Sabo and extreme diff Mera Sabo. He gets the benefit of doubt for me due to his better portrayal against an admiral imo


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## Dr. White (Feb 14, 2015)

I think Sabo in base can take it. He should be a bit more speedy than Jozu, and by feats has the better COA Haki. Diamond is extremely resistant to being cut, but not cracked. Sabo's low end Dragon Claw completely nullified the colosseum shaking Shockwaves Burgess was throwing around. Haki allows him to make Jozu's parts tangible to boot. I don't see Jozu taking many Dragon's Breaths, but Sabo is gonna have to watch out from in close cause Jozu can probably dish out damage comparable to prime DC. 

Base Sabo vs Jozu is a toss up IMO. Sabo's martial art is a really good counter, and I think Base Sabo gets Low Top tier scaling. So yeah pretty even. 

Mera Sabo beats Jozu High diff Imo. Sabo has the better Haki feats, and will be helped by Logia advantages here. Plus he'll get a ranged arsenal, and way more mobility to wear Jozu down. Fire isn't gonna do much, but it'll hurt Jozu a bit. Gives him time and leeway to land his Dragon Breaths and finish him off.


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## Yuki (Feb 14, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> Jozu mid-high diffs pre-mera Sabo and extreme diff Mera Sabo. He gets the benefit of doubt for me due to his better portrayal against an admiral imo



How does he have better portrayal vs an admiral... He lost, Sabo stalemated. >_>


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## barreltheif (Feb 14, 2015)

Sabo fought an admiral for 6 chapters off panel and half a chapter on panel, and got him to use a powerful named attack. Sabo himself used no named attacks. Sabo and Fujitora both ended up unharmed.

Jozu fought an admiral for a page on panel and a chapter off panel. He turned around in the middle of the fight, got one shot, and lost an arm. Aokiji ended up unharmed, and never had to use a named attack.

Sabo's performance against an admiral was much better.


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## Luke (Feb 14, 2015)

Scenario 1, Jozu wins with high difficulty. He's much physically stronger than Sabo, and without the benefit of the Mera Fruit I can't see the Revo being able to deal him enough damage to put him down. Still, this isn't an easy fight. 

Scenario 2, Sabo wins with extreme difficulty. He should be able to barely edge this one out. His performance against Fujitora was slightly more impressive than Jozu's against Aokiji. He'll have more maneuverability with the fire fruit, and has the added bonus of intangibility which will no doubt come in handy. Not to mention the extra power behind his now fire based attacks.


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## Raiden34 (Feb 14, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> Sabo fought an admiral for 6 chapters off panel and half a chapter on panel, and got him to use a powerful named attack. Sabo himself used no named attacks. Sabo and Fujitora both ended up unharmed.
> 
> Jozu fought an admiral for a page on panel and a chapter off panel. He turned around in the middle of the fight, got one shot, and lost an arm. Aokiji ended up unharmed, and never had to use a named attack.
> 
> Sabo's performance against an admiral was much better.




Jozu bleeded Aokiji, and he was doing fine until Whitebeard's heart stopped

Sabo never bleeded Fujitora, and he was not in a good condition than Fujitora.



Not to mention Aokiji > Fujitora, Fujitora is still learning to use his new DF


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## Kaiser (Feb 14, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> How does he have better portrayal vs an admiral... He lost, Sabo stalemated. >_>


The admiral fighting Jozu was going all out, yet they were clashing evenly until he got distracted when Sabo was panting against another who was restricted and stalling for time


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## Ruse (Feb 14, 2015)

How was Sabo's portrayal against an Admiral more impressive he came off looking inferior to a dicking around Fujitora?


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## Luke (Feb 14, 2015)

Freecss said:


> How was Sabo's portrayal against an Admiral more impressive he came off looking inferior to a dicking around Fujitora?



Sabo pushed Fujitora into using a named attack and the fight ended as a draw rather than a defeat. 

Inb4 "But Jozu was DISTRACTED!!!"


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## barreltheif (Feb 14, 2015)

Marco1907 said:


> Jozu bleeded Aokiji, and he was doing fine until Whitebeard's heart stopped
> Sabo never bleeded Fujitora, and he was not in a good condition than Fujitora.
> 
> Not to mention Aokiji > Fujitora, Fujitora is still learning to use his new DF




So much garbage in one post.
WB's heart attack wasn't what caused Jozu to lose so quickly and badly, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.

Jozu blindsided Aokiji while Aokiji was fighting Whitebeard. Yes, he managed to make him "bleeded" a little bit.
If Sabo got in a free hit against Aokiji while Aokiji was fighting the strongest man in the world, he would make Aokiji bleed.

"not in a good condition than Fujitora"
What did you mean by this? I honestly couldn't tell because of your hopeless grammar.
Sabo's condition wasn't better than Fujitora's, but Sabo was still unharmed at the end of their fight.

There is not the slightest bit of evidence that Fujitora is still learning to use his DF, or that he got it recently. I doubt he was an admiral without having his DF.
You might be getting confused by the time Fujitora said to Law and Doffy that he was just warming up.




Freecss said:


> How was Sabo's portrayal against an Admiral more impressive he came off looking inferior to a dicking around Fujitora?




Looking slightly worse than Fujitora after fighting for several chapters is better than losing an arm after one chapter.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 14, 2015)

There's no way that Fujitora was just 'dicking' around against Sabo. Whilst he wasn't going all out because of the circumstances, he was struggling with moderate difficulty against Sabo. He didn't defeat Sabo nor did he push Sabo to some levels of difficulty with a no named attack.


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## Ruse (Feb 14, 2015)

Luke said:


> Sabo pushed Fujitora into using a named attack and the fight ended as a draw rather than a defeat.
> 
> Inb4 "But Jozu was DISTRACTED!!!"



Sabo didn't "push" Fujitora to anything, he was stalling the entire time.


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## Ruse (Feb 14, 2015)

LyricalMessiah said:


> *There's no way that Fujitora was just 'dicking' around against Sabo*. Whilst he wasn't going all out because of the circumstances, he was struggling with moderate difficulty against Sabo. He didn't defeat Sabo nor did he push Sabo to some levels of difficulty with a no named attack.



Fujitora hasn't been serious this entire arc.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 14, 2015)

Freecss said:


> Fujitora hasn't been serious this entire arc.



Whilst he hasn't been  pushed to go all out against Sabo, he still had to take him as a serious threat and used a named attack against him. By the standards of the Admirals, having to actually put in some effort to your attacks and dodging against another individual is considered as 'trying'. Sabo may have looked more battered than Fujitora in this scan with a few bruises on his body, Fujitora also seemed to have sustained some minor bruises on his face. 

Sabo being shown to have more bruises on his body is normal because he is inferior to Fujitora. However, does that mean that Fujitora wasn't trying? Absolutely not.


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## Coruscation (Feb 14, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> Sabo fought an admiral for 6 chapters off panel and half a chapter on panel, and got him to use a powerful named attack. Sabo himself used no named attacks. Sabo and Fujitora both ended up unharmed.
> 
> Jozu fought an admiral for a page on panel and a chapter off panel. He turned around in the middle of the fight, got one shot, and lost an arm. Aokiji ended up unharmed, and never had to use a named attack.
> 
> Sabo's performance against an admiral was much better.



By that same logic Sabo's performance against Fujitora was superior to Akainu's performance against Whitebeard. Akainu fought Whitebeard for two pages on panel and 1 chapter off-panel. Neither used a named attack and they both ended up unharmed until Whitebeard's heart attack cut the battle short.

_Context_, barrelthief.

But why bother? You have no intentions of being fair and I have no intentions of arguing on any other premise of being fair to each character.


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## barreltheif (Feb 14, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> By that same logic Sabo's performance against Fujitora was superior to Akainu's performance against Whitebeard. Akainu fought Whitebeard for two pages on panel and 1 chapter off-panel. Neither used a named attack and they both ended up unharmed until Whitebeard's heart attack cut the battle short.
> 
> _Context_, barrelthief.
> 
> But why bother? You have no intentions of being fair and I have no intentions of arguing on any other premise of being fair to each character.




Yes, other things equal, fighting someone stronger than you for 6 chapters without getting injured constitutes a better performance than fighting someone stronger for 1 chapter without getting injured.
Both of those are better than fighting someone for 1 chapter and then losing.

What was your point here?


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## mastergimmy (Feb 14, 2015)

Its fucking stupid that people are saying Sabo probably has better haki or combat ability when you guys have no clue

I really feel like people are just saying Sabo high diffs him because of their fanboying and they want him to win where in fact Jozu no matter what has shown better strength, better defence and better feats. 

Face it. Jozu wins first scenario


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## Yuki (Feb 14, 2015)

mastergimmy said:


> Its fucking stupid that people are saying Sabo probably has better haki or combat ability when you guys have no clue
> 
> I really feel like people are just saying Sabo high diffs him because of their fanboying and they want him to win where in fact Jozu no matter what has shown better strength, better defence and better feats.
> 
> Face it. Jozu wins first scenario



... You just did everything you said they are doing.

Please gtfo.


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## Bohemian Knight (Feb 14, 2015)

As many have said, Jozu is physically superior to Sabo. Sabo's Haki is likely not enough to combat Jozu's diamond defense and own top-notch CoA.

Scenario 1: Jozu solid high diff
Scenario 2: Jozu more times than not


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## Coruscation (Feb 14, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> Yes, other things equal, fighting someone stronger than you for 6 chapters without getting injured constitutes a better performance than fighting someone stronger for 1 chapter without getting injured.
> Both of those are better than fighting someone for 1 chapter and then losing.
> 
> What was your point here?



My point is that other things _aren't_ equal. You speak of # of chapters as if every chapter denotes the same length of in-universe time. That is a very strange thing to do when they obviously do not.

That said... one could surmise that WB vs. Akainu was a very short fight, given that they started fighting after Luffy went down, and their fight had ended before Luffy stood back up. Luffy obviously started arguing with Iva to get him back up and running again as soon as he could. So that fight, at least, must have been very short. Jozu vs. Aokiji, which started earlier, was longer than Whitebeard vs. Akainu by an unknown amount of time. But the kicker is we don't know how long either was compared to Sabo vs. Fujitora. Number of chapters don't dictate actual in-universe time passed. So that comparison that seemed quantifiable on the surface is actually a meaningless comparison.

Your second point, getting injured, is a different beast as well. Jozu got injured and taken out when he was distracted. He would not have been taken out if he did not get distracted. If not for outside factors distracting him, he wouldn't have been taken out. Sabo had no outside factors to distract him directly the way Jozu did. So the situations were not, of course, equal. Also, Oda deliberately drew Sabo as a bit bruised up while Fujitora was immaculate despite the latter holding back. The full truth of the comparison would be something like:

- we don't know whether Jozu vs Aokiji or Sabo vs Fujitora was longer
- we know that Jozu was at best mildly bruised before he got frozen
- we know that Sabo _was_ mildly bruised when their fight ended

So far into the comparison, Jozu >= Sabo. 

To reiterate: we're discounting Jozu's defeat here because remember, Sabo had no outside forces to distract him. Even if he had Aokiji's power is different to get distracted against than Fujitora's. Even further still, Fujitora's holding back - in fact, he _wanted_ to be hindered by Sabo, to use that as his excuse for not going after the Straw Hats - muddles the whole issue further whilst Aokiji had no reason to hold back other than the same collateral concerns Fujitora did. So Jozu's defeat and Sabo's not-defeat are incommensurable. To make a functional quantitative comparison we have to compare things that are actually comparable.

So the kicker that makes the difference is the following:

- we know that Fujitora never had as his true motive to defeat Sabo. He had his own ulterior motives and eventually he outright told Sabo as much and they agreed to stop fighting each other. For Aokiji, however, Jozu was the 3rd most important and strongest commander on the opposing side of a war. He had an extraordinarily strong motive to try his hardest to take Jozu out and indeed did so the moment he got the chance.

In short, judged on performances vs. an Admiral alone, Jozu => Sabo. As hazy as that is given the nature of MF feats. But nonetheless. But when it comes to the level of effort from each Admiral, Aokiji clearly had more of a motive to use full power and put in his best effort to kill Jozu, whilst Fujitora was essentially just putting on a show. As such, a workable comparison of the two scenes ends up in Jozu's favor -- for now. Remaining behind the scenes factors such as what Oda really meant by writing each scene as he did can turn the tide in the other direction in the future (though we'll probably never actually know).


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## Ruse (Feb 14, 2015)

LyricalMessiah said:


> Whilst he hasn't been  pushed to go all out against Sabo, he still had to take him as a serious threat and used a named attack against him. By the standards of the Admirals, having to actually put in some effort to your attacks and dodging against another individual is considered as 'trying'. Sabo may have looked more battered than Fujitora in this scan with a few bruises on his body, Fujitora also seemed to have sustained some minor bruises on his face.
> 
> Sabo being shown to have more bruises on his body is normal because he is inferior to Fujitora. However, does that mean that Fujitora wasn't trying? Absolutely not.



I don't see any bruises on Fujitora's face, he wasn't taking Sabo seriously at all he was just putting on a show since he needed an excuse to not go after the SHs.


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## Dr. White (Feb 14, 2015)

Jozu was impressive, but more so than Sabo?

Jozu got his one hit on Aokiji because Jozu blindsided him in the first place. He used his non hardened Haki to give him a bloody lip. Than he let his combat awareness slip for a minute and lost his arm. Combined with his top tier strength, and Mihawk stopping feat, he is a pretty solid low top tier.

Sabo completely overshadowed a Yonko Division Commander, and a Seat at once. Seeking out the Mera, and countering Burgess Shockwave with an Named Hardened Palm Thrust. Then he showed 2 ridiculous feats in a row, Dragon breath and his Hiken. With his logia, he was then able to no diff a VA, and go toe to toe with an admiral for several chapters. Sabo was actively clashing up close with Fujitora to boot, and we saw AOE damage being done to the town around it. Sabo came out with more bruises than Fuji, and his Logia came in handy for dealing with Horizontal Gravity, but he still did very well and arguably better than Jozu, who engaged aokiji in a much less direct situation. Sabo with just his Haki and Staff game was able to become number 2 in the Revo's so he also has that hype riding for him.

So overall I think they both have very similar hype and combat portrayal, but I think Sabo's Martial art style gives him a distinct edge here, along with his speed advantage, and hardening feats.


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## Suit (Feb 14, 2015)

Sabo's winning this with around high-diff or so, I think. 

Jozu was toyed around with by Doffy. While we can chalk that up to powers, the portrayal was saying that Doffy > Jozu. On the other hand, I feel as though Fujitora's purpose for being on Dressrosa has been to protect Doffy from Sabo while Oda brought him back into the story.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 14, 2015)

Freecss said:


> I don't see any bruises on Fujitora's face, he wasn't taking Sabo seriously at all he was just putting on a show since he needed an excuse to not go after the SHs.



Really? Look on the left side of his face.

Come on now, let's not deny certain things that were portrayed in the manga. You can quite easily see the minor bruises on his face that, as a matter of fact, had never occurred on Fujitora's face before he fought with Sabo. After fighting with an extremely powerful hand to hand combatant with amazing physical strength who, in addition to his already powerful physical strength, possesses the ability to emit fire, those bruises happened as a result of their fight. You could literally see the disparity in strength between both Fujitora and Sabo that had physically manifested itself by the amount of accumulated damage they received.

I never said that Fujitora was struggling immensely. I merely said he was in no way dicking around. Even more convincing proof that he was not 'dicking around' is the fact that he had to use a named attack against a man who wasn't of trivial matters.


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## Coruscation (Feb 14, 2015)

Dr. White said:
			
		

> Jozu, who engaged aokiji in a *much less direct situation*



I'm confounded by this statement. Sabo as we've seen has ranged attacks. He has Hiken, whatever else he could do with his Logia, as well as shockwaves from his dragon-inspired moves. We also visibly saw Sabo and Fujitora being at some distance from each before Fierce Tiger was used. Jozu is from what we've seen a pure bruiser and when we cut back to his match with Aokiji they were seemingly right next to each other. Jozu has no known way of attacking Aokiji other than punching/tackling him. He also has no known way of dodging Aokiji's freezing techniques other than physically moving out of the way or blocking with Haki. Sabo, on the contrary, has his Logia abilities which enabled him to no sell Fierce Tiger without having to actively counter it.

So regardless of who did better, I really want to know what you mean by the assertion that Sabo fought Fujitora in a "more direct" way. Between Fujitora's known stalling and both fighters' ability to contend at mid-long ranges, contrasted to Aokiji's primary goal being to take out Jozu and Jozu only being able to fight at close range, the "more direct", whatever that means exactly, fight was surely the latter, not the former. It's also more direct in a figurative sense as Jozu and Aokiji's specific goals were both to fight one another. Whilst Sabo's goal was to fight Fujitora to stop him from going after Luffy, Fujitora had different intentions entirely and was actually using the fight with Sabo as a convenient excuse for why he didn't go after Luffy (as he never wanted to do so).


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## Dr. White (Feb 14, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> So regardless of who did better, I really want to know what you mean by the assertion that Sabo fought Fujitora in a "more direct" way.


Jozu initiated their scuffle by interupting Aokiji's attempt to attack WB. He then stands in the way of Aokiji getting to WB, he lasted half of a chapter. Granted he got distracted, at best they went at eachother once or twice from what we saw and given the timeline. Aokiji needed a split second to end him, but characters took advantage of lapses in the others' attention, and aokiji was more effective.

Sabo straight up stood in front of all of the marines. He was facing like half a buster call without the ships. He made cakework of of a Mid tier VA, whilst attempting to dodge cut up meteors (which shows his instinctual reaction would be him trying to dodge something of that blast radius). Then he and Fujitora even clashed, and Sabo seemingly did leagues better than what zoro accomplished. Like I said we saw them fighting with some AOE IIRC, and Fujitora even pulled out the horizontal gravity, which caught Sabo off guard, but was dealt with. 



> Between Fujitora's known stalling and both fighters' ability to contend at mid-long ranges, contrasted to Aokiji's primary goal being to take out Jozu and Jozu only being able to fight at close range, the "more direct", whatever that means exactly, fight was surely the latter, not the former. It's also more direct in a figurative sense as Jozu and Aokiji's specific goals were both to fight one another. Whilst Sabo's goal was to fight Fujitora to stop him from going after Luffy, Fujitora had different intentions entirely and was actually using the fight with Sabo as a convenient excuse for why he didn't go after Luffy (as he never wanted to do so).


Fujitora may not have been going all out but he still was not holding back on the attacks he did decide to use. Keeping up appearances means he has to make it so VA's won't know he's pulling his punches, and they fought for quite some time. Plus he wasn't really sure of Sabo's agenda at first IIRC. There would be no reason to severely hold back against the #2 of the revolutionaries.


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## Typhon (Feb 14, 2015)

I'm also inclined to say Base Sabo wins against Jozu. If anything, Mera Sabo would be a liability since he wasn't given DF mastery, in which case Jozu could possibly win that one.

Edit: Not willing to get into a debate over whether Aokiji was going all out or not.


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## Dr. White (Feb 14, 2015)

Typhon said:


> Where was it said Aokiji was going all out? Don't give me that "they had no reason not to" BS. Neither Garp, Mihawk, or Sengoku went all out, let alone any Admiral except maybe Akainu.
> 
> I'm also inclined to say Base Sabo wins against Jozu. If anything, Mera Sabo would be a liability since he wasn't given DF mastery, in which case Jozu could possibly win that one.



At first I thought Jozu would get protection from the fire sicne Diamonds are made at such a high temperature. But Aokiji froze his whole body near to the core, meaning his insides could be affected by temperature. Given Sabo's unmastered Fire first was able to blaze through the Colosseum base, and the water there, I'd say it's hot enough to effect Jozu.

Especially considering Ace's could match Aokiji's casual Ice attack in the war.


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## Gohara (Feb 14, 2015)

@ LyricalMessiah.

Fujitora also groans in pain and/or effort when they clash.  It seems odd that he would do that unless Sabo was pushing him to try hard at the time.


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## Coruscation (Feb 14, 2015)

Dr. White said:
			
		

> Jozu initiated their scuffle by interupting Aokiji's attempt to attack WB.



At which point he was right next to Aokiji and, as I said, he is a close range fighter, so their fight would have been extremely "direct" from then.



> He then stands in the way of Aokiji getting to WB, he lasted half of a chapter.



Incorrect. He fought Aokiji for longer than WB fought Akainu. Specifically, they started fighting at page 8 of chapter 567. At page 9 of chapter 568, Jozu got distracted and his arm got frozen. Then at page 7 of chapter 569, he was finally defeated. But like I said to barrelthief, number of chapters is a poor measurement of time -- mainly because it isn't one. A chapter isn't a certain amount of time. We don't actually know which fight lasted longer just because Sabo vs. Fujitora went on for more chapters.



> Sabo straight up stood in front of all of the marines. He was facing like half a buster call without the ships. He made cakework of of a Mid tier VA, whilst attempting to dodge cut up meteors (which shows his instinctual reaction would be him trying to dodge something of that blast radius). Then he and Fujitora even clashed, and Sabo seemingly did leagues better than what zoro accomplished. Like I said we saw them fighting with some AOE IIRC, and Fujitora even pulled out the horizontal gravity, which caught Sabo off guard, but was dealt with.



I don't see what this has to do with the clash being "more direct". All you're really saying is that we saw more of their fight whilst Jozu vs Aokiji was off-paneled.

Fujitora was initially completely ignoring Sabo's rampage and let his VA subordinate go in and try to take him on. If Fuji had actually been serious about taking Sabo out, which as I said he wasn't because he had his own agenda all along, he would have been attacking him right off the bat. Fuji was stalling.



> Fujitora may not have been going all out but he still was not holding back on the attacks he did decide to use. Keeping up appearances means he has to make it so VA's won't know he's pulling his punches, and they fought for quite some time. Plus he wasn't really sure of Sabo's agenda at first IIRC. There would be no reason to severely hold back against the #2 of the revolutionaries.



How much he held back (due to his agenda) is debatable and unconfirmed. It could be a little or it could be quite a lot. Regardless, he had a specific reason to hold back apart. Aokiji had a definitive motive to try his hardest to take out Jozu and there's no reason to believe he did anything else given the gravity of the war and his definitive dedication as a Marine Admiral. The only restraint on him would be the risk of collateral damage like all the top fighters of MF, to a greater degree depending on their powers, had to be careful with.

Point is, according to basic logic, Aokiji has no reason not to try as hard as he could whereas Fujitora's doing so is muddled with uncertainty. As such Jozu accomplishing what he did carries more inherent weight with it all else equal. All else isn't necessarily equal but we have nothing else to judge it by.


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## Dr. White (Feb 14, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> At which point he was right next to Aokiji and, as I said, he is a close range fighter, so their fight would have been extremely "direct" from then.


Yeah but he has no real feats of pressuring Aokiji outside his indirect feat of catching Aokiji completely off guard while fighting someone else. I'll give him he was able to spar a bit, but it's a scarce feat.



> Incorrect. He fought Aokiji for longer than WB fought Akainu. Specifically, they started fighting at page 8 of chapter 567. At page 9 of chapter 568, Jozu got distracted and his arm got frozen. Then at page 7 of chapter 569, he was finally defeated. But like I said to barrelthief, number of chapters is a poor measurement of time -- mainly because it isn't one. A chapter isn't a certain amount of time. We don't actually know which fight lasted longer just because Sabo vs. Fujitora went on for more chapters.


I'll concede we don't know the exact timeline, but Oda dragged the fight with Sabo out longer via panels of him doing different things during the fight. We saw Aokiji use two attacks on him one getting his arm, the other completely freezing him. Sabo clashed with his gravisword, dodged his meteor/soloed his associate, and survived Horizontal gravity to clash with him once more.




> I don't see what this has to do with the clash being "more direct". All you're really saying is that we saw more of their fight whilst Jozu vs Aokiji was off-paneled.


I meant the feats against the admirals. 



> Fujitora was initially completely ignoring Sabo's rampage and let his VA subordinate go in and try to take him on. If Fuji had actually been serious about taking Sabo out, which as I said he wasn't because he had his own agenda all along, he would have been attacking him right off the bat. Fuji was stalling.


Bastille seemed like a hot head and they attacked him first. I don't see Fujitora as the Akinu type hothead, and even he was pretty static for the first half of Marineford. 

I think Fujitora was seomwhat serious not only because of him having to keep up appearances, but because Sabo is also a strong enough fighter to damage fujitora should he be to casual. It be like Kizaru trying to treat Marco like he did Hawkins. Sabo didn't know Fuji was actually a cool dude, so he was most likely on guard and attacking full force against an admiral and his squad.




> How much he held back (due to his agenda) is debatable and unconfirmed. It could be a little or it could be quite a lot. Regardless, he had a specific reason to hold back apart. Aokiji had a definitive motive to try his hardest to take out Jozu and there's no reason to believe he did anything else given the gravity of the war and his definitive dedication as a Marine Admiral. The only restraint on him would be the risk of collateral damage like all the t


He accomplished this alongside Kizaru  taking out Marco along with Onigumo. We don't really have anything to base their off panel clashes off of. Even with something like Mihawk vs Vista we have them evenly clashing with energy around the blades to signify they are exerting effort. Jozu's is completely dependant on Aokiji fighting WB.




> Point is, according to basic logic, Aokiji has no reason not to try as hard as he could whereas Fujitora's doing so is muddled with uncertainty. As such Jozu accomplishing what he did carries more inherent weight with it all else equal. All else isn't necessarily equal but we have nothing else to judge it by.


I place Jozu and Sabo on the same tier. Sabo's done enough for me to register him as a tough opponent for the likes of Jozu, and in this case I think Sabo's arsenal is what's going to lead him to victory.


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## Coruscation (Feb 14, 2015)

Dr. White said:
			
		

> Yeah but he has no real feats of pressuring Aokiji outside his indirect feat of catching Aokiji completely off guard while fighting someone else.



Sabo doesn't really have any feats of pressuring Fuji either. Fuji never seemed notably pressured during their battle that we actually saw on panel. Fuji's having different motives and stalling during the fight also muddles the entire thing. Sabo certainly did, and just as Jozu doesn't have feats of pressuring Aokiji, the same applies in reverse as far as the non-distracted parts of their fight goes.



> I'll concede we don't know the exact timeline, but Oda dragged the fight with Sabo out longer via panels of him doing different things during the fight. We saw Aokiji use two attacks on him one getting his arm, the other completely freezing him. Sabo clashed with his gravisword, dodged his meteor/soloed his associate, and survived Horizontal gravity to clash with him once more.



I'm inclined to blame it on MF syndrome. No one got any real fleshed out fights, doesn't mean there weren't serious fights happening. Sabo is a much more important character than Jozu so it's natural Oda will show more of him.



> Bastille seemed like a hot head and they attacked him first. I don't see Fujitora as the Akinu type hothead, and even he was pretty static for the first half of Marineford.



Akainu and Aokij both jumped headlong into combat with WB. If Fujitora was serious he wouldn't have been doing nothing while half his troupe and Bastille got wrecked. That just makes no sense. As I said he was obviously stalling.



> I think Fujitora was seomwhat serious not only because of him having to keep up appearances, but because Sabo is also a strong enough fighter to damage fujitora should he be to casual.



Yes, but despite all of this, he didn't have a true motive to beat Sabo. His motives were different and he was following a separate agenda. Aokiji was acting in his position as one of the three main fighters and had the chance to take out the 3rd most important/strongest commander on the opposing side of the war, which had enormous gravity and significance.

It's entirely possible once Fuji goes all out we'll see he was still holding back a lot against Sabo. The Admiral is the guy Oda has been holding back the most throughout the entire arc and mostly showed glimpses of his powers. Whatever he shows in the future will likely be to his benefit as Sabo is still young and has room to grow whereas Fuji is already the monster he'll remain the rest of the series.

Jozu vs Aokiji, however, is likely to forever remain a fight we didn't get to see but that nonetheless has to be assumed was very much serious from both sides as it makes no sense for it not to be. People are happy to assume that with WB vs the Admirals so it's just underrating of Jozu that causes other opinions to pop up (not referring to you).



> He accomplished this alongside Kizaru taking out Marco along with Onigumo. We don't really have anything to base their off panel clashes off of. Even with something like Mihawk vs Vista we have them evenly clashing with energy around the blades to signify they are exerting effort. Jozu's is completely dependant on Aokiji fighting WB.



He only did it when Jozu was distracted and looked away. Prior to that there is no conceivable reason for him not to have been trying as hard as he could to take out Jozu given the gravity of the situation as explained above.



> I place Jozu and Sabo on the same tier. Sabo's done enough for me to register him as a tough opponent for the likes of Jozu, and in this case I think Sabo's arsenal is what's going to lead him to victory.



That's fair enough, but not what I was discussing.


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## Yuki (Feb 14, 2015)

I don't really get this long discussion. 

Between Sabo and Jozu it can go either way.

I don't get though how the people that think Mihawk can cut Jozu's diamond, are the same people that think Sabo cannot destroy his diamond with blunt force. Even though like, blunt force attacks beats Diamond 1000x over slashing attacks.

Sabo would literally need to be 1000 weaker than Mihawk for both of these to be true at once. 

It seems to me people are just picking their posts to favor the person on who they want to win the fight so to not spoil their tier list, regardless of what other people say. (Directed at both parties.)

I put Sabo without DF at Jozu's =.

I put Sabo with DF at Marco's =.

I put Sabo with DF mastery at admiral =.

That is my opinion, don't like it? Ok fine, i don't like yours. 

Like i said before, against a blunt user like Sabo, diamond is probably a none factor if not a hindrance.


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## Captain Altintop (Feb 14, 2015)

Luffy = Burgess < Vista <= Pre Sabo <= DD = Jozu <= Mera Sabo < Marco <= Fujitora

That's my scale.

S1) Jozu high diffs

S2) Mera Sabo very high diffs.


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## mastergimmy (Feb 14, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> I don't really get this long discussion.
> 
> Between Sabo and Jozu it can go either way.
> 
> ...



this is wrong in every way. the diamond coating is suppose to give Jozu his extra defence and hardness to his attacks and no matter what its always an advantage. if you say this then every opponent in one piece who uses fists will just automatically have an advantage against Jozu and he mite as well not use his DF. Just because blunt attacks work better on diamond than cutting does not mean Jozu might as well not use his diamond body or its a hindrance.

if you punch someone in the face do you think its easier when they have a diamond coated face or when they have nothing..... no matter what when there is protection its ganna be better. Logic


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## Yuki (Feb 15, 2015)

mastergimmy said:


> this is wrong in every way. the diamond coating is suppose to give Jozu his extra defence and hardness to his attacks and no matter what its always an advantage. if you say this then every opponent in one piece who uses fists will just automatically have an advantage against Jozu and he mite as well not use his DF. Just because blunt attacks work better on diamond than cutting does not mean Jozu might as well not use his diamond body or its a hindrance.
> 
> if you punch someone in the face do you think its easier when they have a diamond coated face or when they have nothing..... no matter what when there is protection its ganna be better. Logic



Maybe you forgot were Sabo says his fingers can crush a skill like an egg. Haki, haki is all.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 15, 2015)

That's true, Sabo's got great physical strength and can destroy large surface areas at a distance with the power of his hands but I don't think it would 'easily' breach through Jozu's diamond defense as you believe, much less break through it. The feats he'd shown of breaking swords by constricting his fingers on a Vice admiral's blade and skull are great.


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## Matariki (Feb 17, 2015)

Sabo low diff.


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## Raiden34 (Feb 17, 2015)

Thorin said:


> Sabo low diff.



Gtfo............


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## Jeep Brah (Feb 17, 2015)

Jozu pounds him no df high difficulty.


Sabo beats him with df high difficulty


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## Raiden34 (Feb 17, 2015)

If Akainu would turn his back against Aokiji, he would share the same fate in their battle, I don't see why Jozu gets lowball just because he lost to Aokiji while he turned his back to him.


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## Yuki (Feb 17, 2015)

Marco1907 said:


> If Akainu would turn his back against Aokiji, he would share the same fate in their battle, I don't see why Jozu gets lowball just because he lost to Aokiji while he turned his back to him.



DD had his back to him and came out of it just fine.


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## Jeep Brah (Feb 17, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> DD had his back to him and came out of it just fine.



Not even comparable.




Aokiji only flaunted his aura to turn Doffy into ice.



Where as he used the same technique he uses to freeze oceans on Jozu.


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## Yuki (Feb 17, 2015)

Jeep Brah said:


> Not even comparable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wtf are you talking about...

Aokiji used just basic Ice to freeze Jozu. 



Also "Aokiji only flaunted his aura to turn Doffy into ice." Emm... yea no. >_>

You can't even say Jozu got distracted at the same level of Marco. Marco literally ran as fast as he could to get to WB. Jozu just turned his head around for a nano second and got frozen and was out of the fight.

When Aokiji froze DD, DD was literally trying to kill someone else while sat on his ass and he broke out of it just fine. Plus DD was completely frozen while Jozu only got half frozen.


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## Dr. White (Feb 17, 2015)

Juvia you're new here, and I see you respond (seriously) alot to some posters who aren't worth the time. Jeep Brah is an example of one of those posters.


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## Yuki (Feb 17, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Juvia you're new here, and I see you respond (seriously) alot to some posters who aren't worth the time. Jeep Brah is an example of one of those posters.



I know, i've been told about him before. >_<


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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 17, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> I put Sabo with DF at Marco's =.



*Spoiler*: __ 







That ship has long since sailed.


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## Yuki (Feb 17, 2015)

Issho said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is that the legit English translation that's for sale and can be bought? Coz others say different things. >_>


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## Elite Uchiha (Feb 17, 2015)

DFless Sabo beats Jozu with extreme difficulty

DF Sabo beats Jozu with high (mid) difficulty


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## Raiden34 (Feb 18, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> DD had his back to him and came out of it just fine.



Not even comparable as previous post said, Aokiji attacked him with a shitty move like even G5 soldiers can escape ; freezing the ground, that was a warning only.

Against Jozu, he attacked for kill and it wasn't a warning he used his advantage completely.


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