# Kamijou Touma and Emiya Shirou vs Accelerator and Shiki Tohno



## Gundam Meister (Jan 29, 2013)

PIS and CIS : Off
Blood lust : On


Starting Distance : 10 Meters


So which team takes it


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

Touma dashes in to deal with Accelerator, and is promptly cut into pieces by Shiki. Accelerator then peels Shirou's face off. GG.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

Shiki goes Nanaya, kills oxygen around everyone(including Asseselator) and begins to slash them in really violent way.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jan 29, 2013)

When did Tohno/Nanaya kill oxygen?


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

Well, never  But it's easy feat for him.

+ in Ciel route in her fight with Arcueid he killed a "nature" so he could stop her regen. And that wasn't even Nanaya mode.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

You really hate Accelerator, don't you? 

Besides, that wouldn't kill him. He'd just fly somewhere there is air. As for the effects of the change in pressure (namely explosive decompression), lol vector shields. Either way, Touma and Shirou lose.

EDIT: Since when could he do that shit? I thought he had trouble discerning the lines of death for inorganic objects.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

Don't know if you noticed, but majority of the OBD hates him.

He won't accomplish that if he kills his vector field and then his existence


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2013)

AMAK


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

How fast is Shiki, exactly? Because he ain't doing shit if he can't go past Mach 26. Besides, Accelerator doesn't need to even block. Darkwings mode. He creates imaginary vectors that let him strip the skin off of Shiki's hands so he drops his fruit knife, then he creates imaginary vectors programmed for curbstomping. Shiki's face goes into ground.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

In Ciel route he was noted to have speed equal to her, so mach 30. And he won't go Dark Wing in time.


> AMAK


I understand Touma, Accel and maybe Shirou. But what do you have against Shiki?


----------



## TedMk2 (Jan 29, 2013)

Ryougi cuts them down. Or Kanata punts them all off the planet. Either's fine, really.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> I understand Touma, Accel and maybe Shirou. But what do you have against Shiki?


3v1, majority rules


and I don't salivate over Shiki either  there's much better in Nasuverse


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

TedMk2 said:
			
		

> Ryougi cuts them down. Or Kanata punts them all off the planet. Either's fine, really.


You have a right, sir


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

Fluttershy said:
			
		

> and I don't salivate over Shiki  either there's much better in Nasuverse


He isn't so bad. I actually liked how his craziness was showed(read: Nanaya )


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

How do we know that the MEoDP would even work on his vector shields though? The MEoDP can kill concepts, yes, but Ryougi Shiki could only kill Fujino's telekinesis because it was, in actuality, a physical manifestation of magic. Kinda like a fireball produced using magic, except invisible. Point is, it was prana, and it actually existed in the physical world, unlike Accelerator's vector shields, which despite what the name implies are not actual shields. And even then, Ryougi couldn't see it until she focused. For Tohno, who already has difficulty seeing the death of anything that's not organic, what makes you say he could even figure out where his vector shields were, or even if Tohno's MEoDP even work on something which technically does not exist.


----------



## TedMk2 (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm pretty certain the MEoDP vs Accelerator has been done before enough times not to warrant a revisit, so I'm not going to pursue the issue. Especially as the MEoDP user in this particular case isn't being pitted against Accelerator.

So I'll just reiterate that Kanata turns them all into fine paste across the solar system and leave it at that


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

Wow, so wrong in so many places.

Fujino Mystic Eyes of Distortion aren't magecraft, seeing as she doesn't have magic circuits, it's more like ESP/psychic.

Second, do you srsl arguing whether Shiki can kill something like vector shield when he killed Roa soul inside his own body without harming his own soul? + it will be like with Kohaku: he killed poison inside her without physical damage. Ryougi can kill concepts but Asagami power is not an concept so it could be powerscaled to Tohno.

And also, Tohno has problems with seeing concepts of inorganic things?  What a bs is that. I take that as you didn't even played a game. He killed inorganic things as a brat, when his eyes still weren't matured.

And why do you takie Accel vs Tohno for real? I just said that for lulz.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 29, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> How do we know that the MEoDP would even work on his vector shields though? The MEoDP can kill concepts, yes, but Ryougi Shiki could only kill Fujino's telekinesis because it was, in actuality, a physical manifestation of magic. Kinda like a fireball produced using magic, except invisible. Point is, it was prana, and it actually existed in the physical world, unlike Accelerator's vector shields, which despite what the name implies are not actual shields. And even then, Ryougi couldn't see it until she focused. For Tohno, who already has difficulty seeing the death of anything that's not organic, what makes you say he could even figure out where his vector shields were, or even if Tohno's MEoDP even work on something which technically does not exist.


AIM Fields are noted to be a physical phenomena, of which Accelerator's reflect ability is similarly derived from that himself.

Also, he doesn't have "vector shields", his reflect is an application of his vector manipulation, which is affecting whatever vectors he can touch.

So. Shiki goes for the kill, notices two death points to slash (one for Accelerator himself, and one for his reflect/application of power), Shiki kills the one that is clearly the super power, and then polishes off Accelerator properly while he still struggles to comprehend what's going on.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jan 29, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> He won't accomplish that if he kills his vector field and then his existence



Tohno has trouble with anything non-tangible (or maybe I'm wrong, but this was stated by Nasuverse fans in several old threads iirc). He isn't like Ryougi Shiki who can easily cut things like Magic, souls and psychic abilities. Unless he has cut something like a vector field before, I don't think he'd be able to do that.

Also, when was Tohno stated to be equal to a full powered Ciel? IIRC, Ryougi Shiki was supposed to be at about her level, but not Tohno....


That said, in this thread Shiki is on Accelerator's side, and Touma is on Shirou's side. So Shiki and Accelerator are not fighting one another.

As for the match, All that will be left after the fight between Shirou and Accelerator will be a smear of Shirou's blood on the ground.

Shiki just cuts Touma's head off.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

Nevermind beacuse of Eyes of Purity he can see his field like on plate.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

> Tohno has trouble with anything non-tangible. He isn't like Ryougi Shiki who can easily cut things like Magic, souls and psychic abilities. Unless he has cut something like a vector field before, I don't think he'd be able to do that.
> 
> Also, when was Tohno stated to be equal to a full powered Ciel? IIRC, Ryougi Shiki was supposed to be at about her level, but not Tohno....


I answered all of that, just go look for earlier posts.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 29, 2013)

Actually, with Touma's precog, it could be somewhat more than a simple decapitation, since he casually dodges lightning from biribiri. 

Although he'd still ultimately lose.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jan 29, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> I answered all of that, just go look for earlier posts.



I just saw and edited my post. You posted your post while I was in the middle of writing.



TehChron said:


> Actually, with Touma's precog, it could be somewhat more than a simple decapitation, since he casually dodges lightning from biribiri.
> 
> Although he'd still ultimately lose.



His pre-cog so far has only worked on supernatural attacks. Unless something happened in NT 4,5 or 6 which contradicts that....?


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

~Greed~ said:
			
		

> His pre-cog so far has only worked on supernatural attacks.


I don't think it's a deal with supernatural attacks...or just partially it isn't.

Levinia used a gun, it was noted he would still react to it, but beacuse it isn't supernatural attack he can't negate it.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jan 29, 2013)

I see. So basically, he has the reactions, but since he can't negate it, his precog becomes pointless....


----------



## TehChron (Jan 29, 2013)

~Greed~ said:


> I see. So basically, he has the reactions, but since he can't negate it, his precog becomes pointless....



Yep.

Although that was more due to Birdway _just as planning_ it that way.

It was an issue of Touma still being within the bounds of peak humanity.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

But wait, I might be wrong

*Spoiler*: __ 





> “I do not much like modern weapons like missiles and machine guns.”
> 
> She pulled it out.
> 
> ...






Still, it contradicts with what he said later. 

*Spoiler*: __ 





> The old-fashioned pistol was relatively low power, but he had no guarantee he could block it with just the bones of his arm.
> 
> He was not a tights-wearing hero from American comics. He could not dodge a bullet flying straight at him and repelling it with a body of steel was out of the question.






So dunno...

edit: oh wait, forget what I said, he CAN react to bullet, just can't negate her.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 29, 2013)

He was about..3-4 feet away from her, at the time, and she was aiming at his gut, which his running stance simply did not allow him to cleanly dodge.

He acknowledged it, and simply closed the gap before she could pull the trigger, which was the trap to completely seal Toumas movements.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

That seems to be case.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 29, 2013)

Touma would lose to Shiki, but it'd be due more to plain old blood loss than any real instant-kill, I'd imagine.

Heaven's Feel Shirou with Archer's Arm may last a few minutes against Accelerator, though, provided he realized that he wasnt going to win without using Gae Bolg.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> Wow, so wrong in so many places.
> 
> Fujino Mystic Eyes of Distortion aren't magecraft, seeing as she doesn't have magic circuits, it's more like ESP/psychic.



Wrongo!



> Mystic Eyes (魔眼, magan?) grants the power to interfere with the outer world. Acquisition of Mystic Eyes happens when there is some sort of mutation in the *Magic Circuits located in the area around one’s eyes.* Mutations like that can be done artificially through a process similar to forging a Thaumaturgical Crest. *Mystic Eyes usually work like Single Action spells and are activated through the use of prana.* The proof of a first-class magus since it grants great power while being easy to conceal.





BoomBaeBoom said:


> Second, do you srsl arguing whether Shiki can kill something like vector shield when he killed Roa soul inside his own body without harming his own soul? + it will be like with Kohaku: he killed poison inside her without physical damage. Ryougi can kill concepts but Asagami power is not an concept so it could be powerscaled to Tohno.



I'll get back to this later.



BoomBaeBoom said:


> And also, Tohno has problems with seeing concepts of inorganic things?  What a bs is that. I take that as you didn't even played a game. He killed inorganic things as a brat, when his eyes still weren't matured.
> 
> And why do you takie Accel vs Tohno for real? I just said that for lulz.



I read the manga, and I'm pretty familiar with the material on the TYPE-MOON wiki. It's not as if I am wholly uninformed. And I recall this being cited as the difference between Ryougi and Tohno, and it's the main reason she's better than he is.



TehChron said:


> AIM Fields are noted to be a physical phenomena, of which Accelerator's reflect ability is similarly derived from that himself.
> 
> Also, he doesn't have "vector shields", his reflect is an application of his vector manipulation, which is affecting whatever vectors he can touch.
> 
> So. Shiki goes for the kill, notices two death points to slash (one for Accelerator himself, and one for his reflect/application of power), Shiki kills the one that is clearly the super power, and then polishes off Accelerator properly while he still struggles to comprehend what's going on.



Now we return to the point I mentioned earlier. Accelerator's power isn't an actual shield, like you said. It's merely a subconscious activation of his powers which responds automatically to outside vectors to manipulate them. So, if Shiki wanted to kill Accelerator's influence over the vectors of his knife swing, the only thing he'd be able to do is kill his own vectors, thus halting the knife's forward movement. Accelerator's power doesn't manifest physically like the vectors in Elfen Lied. It just manipulates preexisting ones, meaning that the only way for Shiki to counter it is to stop his own movement entirely. Then Accelerator skins him. GG.


----------



## Huntring (Jan 29, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Touma would lose to Shiki, but it'd be due more to plain old blood loss than any real instant-kill, I'd imagine.



Touma would get killed instantly.

What makes you think otherwise?


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 29, 2013)

Shiki, especially nanaya, kills touma with ease


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 29, 2013)

I am on favor or the side that mutilate Shirou.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

That much has never been up for debate. Touma sucks against other HtH fighters who have a speed advantage over him (like Kaori and Acqua), and Shiki has not only the added advantage of being much faster, but he also has extended HtH range thanks to his knife. Even if we avoid the question of "can the MEoDP kill the Invisible Thing", Touma still gets cut into little cubes and served on an appetizer platter for Arc


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

MAPSK said:
			
		

> Wrongo!


Then give me a source of this, since I don't remember anything about this part.

And even so, only activation costs prana, her usual telekinetic like attack is not. That's assuming wiki is correct. Since I remember that Fujino power has jack with magecraft, could be wrong though.


> I read the manga, and I'm pretty familiar with the material on the TYPE-MOON wiki. It's not as if I am wholly uninformed. And I recall this being cited as the difference between Ryougi and Tohno, and it's the main reason she's better than he is.


If you read the manga then it makes things worse, since Shiki in manga has even better feats...

And that's not the point she's superior to him. Ryougi during her accident directly touched the Root so she can see origin of all things(simply she doesn't have overload like Tohno has so she can kill without adapting to it). But she specializes in concepts, to tell the truth I don't remember her killing inorganic objcets, she killed more exotic object though.

Tohno on the other hand is a master when it comes to killing inorganic objects, during Arcueid route(at the end) his eyes became so powerful that he was afraid to not destroy world with his step or smh like that. He killed nature so Arc can't regen, killed poison inside his and Kohaku body, killed building so it crumbles, killed soul without damaging the body etc.


> Now we return to the point I mentioned earlier. Accelerator's power isn't an actual shield, like you said. It's merely a subconscious activation of his powers which responds automatically to outside vectors to manipulate them. So, if Shiki wanted to kill Accelerator's influence over the vectors of his knife swing, the only thing he'd be able to do is kill his own vectors, thus halting the knife's forward movement.


And that's wrong. First of all his field is always there. Second of all with Eyes of Purity Shiki can easily perceive it. Third, if he decides to cut lines on Accel body then he doesn't have to "touch" his field.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> Then give me a source of this, since I don't remember anything about this part.
> 
> And even so, only activation costs prana, her usual telekinetic like attack is not. That's assuming wiki is correct. Since I remember that Fujino power has jack with magecraft, could be wrong though.



Again, Mystic Eyes run on prana. You need to feed prana into them to activate them. Everyone who has Mystic Eyes has Magic Circuits. A lot of muggles have them too. It's just the quantity, quality, and ability to control them that makes them a magus, not the simple presence of the circuits themselves. But because little knowledge is required to operate Mystic Eyes, most otherwise normal people born with Mystic Eyes can operate them easily despite having little or no aptitude as a mage. They just need to possess circuits, or even just a circuit.



BoomBaeBoom said:


> If you read the manga then it makes things worse, since Shiki in manga has even better feats...



I recall that in the manga, Shiki had difficulty perceiving the death of inorganic things. Hell, that's the reason I even know about this weakness. They appeared fuzzy and blurry to him, if he could even see them at all.



BoomBaeBoom said:


> And that's not the point she's superior to him. Ryougi during her accident directly touched the Root so she can see origin of all things(simply she doesn't have overload like Tohno has so she can kill without adapting to it). But she specializes in concepts, to tell the truth I don't remember her killing inorganic objcets, she killed more exotic object though.
> 
> Tohno on the other hand is a master when it comes to killing inorganic objects, during Arcueid route(at the end) his eyes became so powerful that he was afraid to not destroy world with his step or smh like that. He killed nature so Arc can't regen, killed poison inside his and Kohaku body, killed building so it crumbles, killed soul without damaging the body etc.



Show me screenshots from when he did this, because I'm interested to see this. Still, it wouldn't help against Accelerator, for reasons I'm about to explain below.



BoomBaeBoom said:


> And that's wrong. First of all his field is always there. Second of all with Eyes of Purity Shiki can easily perceive it. Third, if he decides to cut lines on Accel body then he doesn't have to "touch" his field.



Again, wrong. Accelerator's power doesn't manifest as a field. It doesn't manifest at all. There is no physical phenomenon. It is him controlling preexisting vectors in his environment _with his mind._ There's no invisible force that reaches out and touches them, and no barrier that blocks them. He wills them to turn around. It's the difference between shoving someone back with telekinesis and mindcontrolling them to walk backwards the same distance. The repelling is merely an effect of him controlling vectors. His powers manipulate the outside world, but they don't physically interact with it in the form of energy or matter.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

MAPSK said:
			
		

> *Again, Mystic Eyes run on prana.* You need to feed prana into them to activate them. *Everyone who has Mystic Eyes has Magic Circuits.* A lot of muggles have them too. It's just the quantity, quality, and *ability to control them that makes them a magus, not the simple presence of the circuits themselves*. But because little knowledge is required to operate Mystic Eyes, most otherwise normal people born with Mystic Eyes can operate them easily despite having little or no aptitude as a mage. They just need to possess circuits, or even just a circuit.


This's bullshit, Rin said that anyone with magic circuits is pretty much a magus, just not so experienced.


> I recall that in the manga, Shiki had difficulty perceiving the death of inorganic things. Hell, that's the reason I even know about this weakness. They appeared fuzzy and blurry to him, if he could even see them at all.


He had problems to see points on inorganic objects, which is not death but existence. That's why he has those headaches. At the end he could easily see existence of inorganic objects. He saw lines much earlier.


> Show me screenshots from when he did this, because I'm interested to see this. Still, it wouldn't help against Accelerator, for reasons I'm about to explain below


Show you what? And don't expect too much, I won't be searching through whole game just to satisfy you.


> Again, wrong. Accelerator's power doesn't manifest as a field. It doesn't manifest at all. There is no physical phenomenon. It is him controlling preexisting vectors in his environment with his mind. There's no invisible force that reaches out and touches them, and no barrier that blocks them. He wills them to turn around.


Bullshit. It's beacuse he blocks ultraviolet radiation he has albino looks. Meaning his field is always there.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

I invite you to look at Satsuki. She's not a magus, yet she is noted as having high magical aptitude, which is what helped her advance from a simple member of the Dead to a Dead Apostle so quickly. Muggles can have circuits, and not know how to use them. What makes someone a magus is a specific quantity and quality of circuits, and the knowledge to use them. Someone lacking one or more of these things has the potential to be a magus, but isn't considered a magus yet.

Also, I'll repeat this. It's not a field, it's his powers redirecting the vectors of the UV radiation. There's no invisible eggshell field involved. Unless you're referring to an AIM Field, which I doubt Shiki would be able to perceive (unless you want to propose to me now that Shiki is capable of intercepting and cutting electromagnetic waves)


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jan 29, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> But wait, I might be wrong
> 
> 
> Still, it contradicts with what he said later.
> ...




This line by here:



> Kamijou Touma did not have the physical ability needed to evade a bullet that had nothing to do with supernatural powers.



States that Touma can not evade a bullet, but it does imply that if it were a supernatural power, he could do so.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 29, 2013)

MAPSK said:
			
		

> I invite you to look at Satsuki. She's not a magus, yet she is noted as having high magical aptitude, which is what helped her advance from a simple member of the Dead to a Dead Apostle so quickly.


Beacuse she has a fucking Reality Marble  Sorcery aside it's ultimate type of Magecraft.

Also, what is Muggles? I don't remember something like that in Type Moon.


> It's not a field, it's his powers redirecting the vectors of the UV radiation.


And he uses vector field for that.


> unless you want to propose to me now that Shiki is capable of intercepting and cutting electromagnetic waves


Not like he done that but why not? He killed more exotic abilites, something like that should be nothing.


			
				~Greed~ said:
			
		

> Says that Touma can not evade a bullet, but it does imply that if it were a supernatural power, he could do so.


Later sentence proves he can react to bullet though. And it's not the point of evading it but negating.

Also, gotta go sleep guys. See 'ya.


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 29, 2013)

I also take the narration as that he can't (even if its a flintlock which means the bullet isn't that fast)


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> Beacuse she has a fucking Reality Marble  Sorcery aside it's ultimate type of Magecraft.



And it requires prana to use, prana which can only be channeled thanks to _magic fucking circuits._ Seriously, how many times must I explain this to you? Normal people have them as well, just not in the same number or quality as those who are trained to be mages.



BoomBaeBoom said:


> Also, what is Muggles? I don't remember something like that in Type Moon.



It's a generic term for "normal, not-special people".



BoomBaeBoom said:


> And he uses vector field for that.



It's not a fucking field, you moron.



BoomBaeBoom said:


> Not like he done that but why not? He killed more exotic abilites, something like that should be nothing.



 You can't be fucking serious. You can't be. Are you honestly trying to tell me you think Shiki has a snowball's chance in hell of reacting to, intercepting, and finally cutting _electromagnetic waves?!_ They move at the fucking speed of light, in order to intercept and cut each wave individually, Shiki would have to be FTL, which is the most retarded bullshit I've ever heard.

Now listen, and learn you some stuff about To Aru: AIM Fields are a weak form of energy emitted by espers. Each field is unique to each esper (for example, Mikoto emits the aforementioned electromagnetic waves), and, for all intents and purposes, can be thought of as the esper emitting their own unique form of radiation. It is not one singular, solid mass, nor is it a shield, or a force field. It is a continual radiation of energy outwards from the esper, the esper of course being the source of said energy. The energy emitted by an AIM Field is how an esper's power interacts with the environment. Since Shiki has no feats of being able to do something like cut energy, which requires both speed and perception on a level he doesn't possess, he _cannot negate Accelerator's vector control._


----------



## Kazu (Jan 29, 2013)

> ESP
> 
> 超能力 - Chounouryoku
> 
> ...



Also, @boom, where is Shiki's mach 30 feat? I know he has mach 30 reactions/attack speed, but that's it.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

Well if Shiki can't actually _move_ at Mach 30 (and I don't recall him being able to, which is why I found Boom's initial speed claim suspicious), then Accelerator definitely wins this. He can just go all "I CAN SHOW YOU THE WOOOORLD" on Shiki's ass, then nuke the continent he's standing on.


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 29, 2013)

Why did this turn into Shiki vs Accelerator? Both of them can solo the other pair...


----------



## TehChron (Jan 29, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> *Again, wrong. Accelerator's power doesn't manifest as a field. It doesn't manifest at all. There is no physical phenomenon.* It is him controlling preexisting vectors in his environment _with his mind._ There's no invisible force that reaches out and touches them, and no barrier that blocks them. He wills them to turn around. It's the difference between shoving someone back with telekinesis and mindcontrolling them to walk backwards the same distance. The repelling is merely an effect of him controlling vectors. His powers manipulate the outside world, but they don't physically interact with it in the form of energy or matter.


Yeah, let's stop this right there.

It's mentioned in one of the New Testament Novels by...Yomikawa? That Vector manipulation is an extension of his own AIM field. AIM fields are things which can be focused, or manifested, or whatever. That's why Vento got rocked when FUSE_Kazakiri was summoned.

Ergo.

Shiki can stab it.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

You missed everything I just said, didn't you? It's a field of weak energy radiating off of the esper. Shiki _cannot kill energy_. Anyone who thinks he can is utterly braindead. It would require not only the ability to see electromagnetic waves and other related phenomenon, but the reflexes to track each individual wave, and the attack speed necessary to intercept each wave to cut it. If Shiki can't even see things like electromagnetic waves, then he can't do shit to Accelerator's AIM Field, because he wouldn't even be able to locate its lines and points. Shiki has the _potential_ to kill things like electromagnetic waves (since he can kill things like concepts), but he lacks the visual acuity, reflexes, and attack speed necessary to interact with things of that caliber in any meaningful way.


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 29, 2013)

Are we getting shikis mixed up here

Actually why does this discussion even matter, because they're _both on the same team_


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

Because BoomBaeBoom seems to think Shiki can kill Accelerator. He can't.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 29, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> You missed everything I just said, didn't you? It's a field of weak energy radiating off of the esper. Shiki _cannot kill energy_. Anyone who thinks he can is utterly braindead. It would require not only the ability to see electromagnetic waves and other related phenomenon, but the reflexes to track each individual wave, and the attack speed necessary to intercept each wave to cut it. If Shiki can't even see things like electromagnetic waves, then he can't do shit to Accelerator's AIM Field, because he wouldn't even be able to locate its lines and points. Shiki has the _potential_ to kill things like electromagnetic waves (since he can kill things like concepts), but he lacks the visual acuity, reflexes, and attack speed necessary to interact with things of that caliber in any meaningful way.



I did read what you were saying.

You were trying to redefine what Accelerator's powers into something Shiki can't kill, your latest example being an AIM field, which is something that I noted before observing you move the field posts to there, anyway.

Doesn't matter.

You literally don't understand how his ability seems to work, so I'll introduce a comparison for your benefit.

What you are saying is analogous to saying that Shiki, when killing a living creature, would need to cut the death points of not the creature itself! But rather, the individual cells and other bits of macro and microscopic matter that make up that very creature, rather than a simple point that represents the entire creatures "death", even setting aside the issues of lines, which still certainly don't seem to criss cross and intersect between every single one of their cells.

It's pointedly absurd. 

As far as the invisibility of the field to the naked eye goes...Well.

What Shiki's MEoDP show are not wavelengths of energy. But death points...So, since Accelerator's vector manipulation is centered around and surrounding him, therefore, it's death point would be within visual range for Shiki to handle.

And prior experience would likely lead to him cutting that one, first.


----------



## OS (Jan 29, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> *Don't know if you noticed, but majority of the OBD hates him.
> *
> He won't accomplish that if he kills his vector field and then his existence



Forgot to respond to this.

>implying the OBD exists like it used to

k im done.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

TehChron said:


> I did read what you were saying.
> 
> You were trying to redefine what Accelerator's powers into something Shiki can't kill, your latest example being an AIM field, which is something that I noted before observing you move the field posts to there, anyway.
> 
> ...



... That is utterly retarded. _It isn't one thing._ It's many overlapping waves produced by the esper themselves. It's not like a cloud of mist or something like that, it's a continual output of energy. What you're saying is basically analogous to claiming that if Shiki cut the space around an irradiated chunk of rock that it'd stop being irradiated. It makes no fucking sense. 

And even if it did work like that, I still haven't seen backing for BoomBaeBoom's claim that Shiki is capable of Mach 30 movement as opposed to just reactions or attack speed. Because if he can't move that fast, it doesn't matter anyway. Accelerator backs the fuck up (literally up in this case) using vector control and nukes the continent Shiki's standing on. Game over, man. Game over.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 29, 2013)

Nasuverse magic?

Make sense?

You must not have paid _that _much attention to the Tsukihime manga, then!


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

I realize the Nasuverse doesn't make sense (hell, I'm the one who's always reminding people of this), but considering we have no feats of Shiki killing something like energy, we can't just declare it works this way or that. We don't know if he has to see the individual points and lines on each wave or not, because he's never done something like that in canon. 

Saying Shiki can kill anything is both the definition of his power, and yet at the same time a no-limits fallacy. Because what anything is changes from person to person. It's subjective. To one person, an energy field might mean a sort of metaphysical eggshell, like we seem to be picturing it here. To others, an energy field conjures the image of a continual output of an infinite amount of infinitesimally small waves, imperceivable by the human eye. How do we know which one Shiki sees? We don't, so we can't claim the MEoDP work whichever way is convenient for us.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 29, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> I realize the Nasuverse doesn't make sense (hell, I'm the one who's always reminding people of this), but considering we have no f*eats of Shiki killing something like energy*, we can't just declare it works this way or that. We don't know if he has to see the individual points and lines on each wave or not, because he's never done something like that in canon.



Magic spells aren't energy?

Anyway. let's look at your previous scenario, here. You're saying that Accelerator's bloodlusted, hell, even normal reaction, to a random thug charging at him with a knife is going to be to _back away_?

Accelerator always tries to tank attacks with reflect. It's why he gets sucker punched at all in the first place, since it's a habit. Shiki's case is different, since he's going to see those two points, and based on prior experience, is going to go for whatever that random death point is that's circling his opponent.

Accelerator isnt going to survive that initial slash without prior knowledge.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

Shiki isn't going to know what to cut without prior knowledge. If neither of them know how the other's power works, how does he know Accelerator is going to block his first strike unless he kills his powers (which I'm still dubious of)? In this scenario, Shiki would be blocked because he didn't know about Accelerator's powers, and would promptly be skinned alive.

And bloodlust does not mean "act like a raging idiot". It means that the combatant will use any necessary trick in their arsenal to win, and they'll use it from the get-go. For Accelerator, this means flying a mile up and nuking the continent. Him blocking Shiki at all would fall under CIS, because it's technically only Accelerator's own overconfidence.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 29, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> Shiki isn't going to know what to cut without prior knowledge. If neither of them know how the other's power works, how does he know Accelerator is going to block his first strike unless he kills his powers (which I'm still dubious of)? In this scenario, Shiki would be blocked because he didn't know about Accelerator's powers, and would promptly be skinned alive.
> 
> And bloodlust does not mean "act like a raging idiot". It means that the combatant will use any necessary trick in their arsenal to win, and they'll use it from the get-go. For Accelerator, this means flying a mile up and nuking the continent. Him blocking Shiki at all would fall under CIS, because it's technically only Accelerator's own overconfidence.



I didn't say CIS off.

Anyway, what I mean by "prior experience" is that when dealing with someone, he'll immediately notice the presence of more than one death point. Whenever he's seen something like that in the past, it's been related to some kind of ability.

Ergo, he's gonna cut it, because while not Accelerator's own death point, it's still related to him somehow, and therefore, is dangerous.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 29, 2013)

Well this match is CIS off, as is every OBD match worth its salt that isn't supposed to be comedic or a study of the character's personality flaws. This is just "who kills who". 

And we're assuming he knows it belongs to Accelerator... why? Since supposedly Shiki can kill the oxygen in the air, shouldn't that mean he's constantly seeing lines and points everywhere? How would he know that Accelerator's point is any different when there should be a fuckton of lines and points everywhere in the atmosphere and the surrounding environment? How would he know the trees from the forest? That's always been my question with users of the MEoDP. How do they distinguish? Their entire vision must be filled to the brim with points and lines, because there are things to kill everywhere you look. Air particles, dust, dust mites, sunbeams, various forms of radiation, airborne bacteria, seeds, insects, various other gases. And that's just in the air alone. If MEoDP users can supposedly see and kill anything, then how are they even capable of seeing at all?


----------



## Tir (Jan 30, 2013)

Accelerator kills Shiki. Being able to see the death point of whatever it is called is useless if the knife can't connect with the dots. I mean, the vector will just redirect it. It can redirect sun light and even unknown matters just as easily, redirecting knife will be just a child's play.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 30, 2013)

Finally, someone with some common sense


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 30, 2013)

Shiki being unable to cut Accelerator because of the latter's vector field?
What kind of hilarious BS is that?
Since when can Accelerator defend against something as abstract as conceptual attacks?
MEoDP is of the highest degree in the Nasuverse amongst these.
Anything that exist would eventually face destruction.
Mystic Eyes of Death Perception does that.
If it was alive, it dies.
If it was intact, it falls apart.
If it was standing, it crumbles
If it had a form, it becomes formless
If it was energy, it decays.
If it was existence, it no longer exists.

Any source of instability or any scenario where Accelerator's field doesn't work can be a trigger which MEoDP would instantly make possible.
Also if somebody wonders, Tohno can indeed see the lines on magic fields or other paranormal things. 
Like others mentioned, Shiki managed to kill the "world" aka portion of the Supreme Reality Marble of the Earth to make Arcueid vulnerable. That's several degrees more abstract than the vector field which Accelerator maintains.

And that's saying if Shiki even needs to bother with Accelerator's field.
At times Shiki's attacks can phase through solid objects to hit the target directly without interacting with anything else.
The details are unclear but basically it works like intangibility.
Accelerator's vector field have yet to show the ability to stop someone or something with such properties.

So yeah, Shiki would have little if any difficulties to kill Accelerator.
The question is about range.
True, Nanaya mode Shiki is Mach 30 (equal to Arcueid in speed who has doubled up Servant stats).
But Darkwing Accelerator and above are Mach 20+.
So anything more than a few meters would mean Accel can attack Shiki before he does.
Mind it, most of Accelerator's attacks are useless against Shiki. Especially those anti-matter wings.
So it all depends on Accel's luck. Whether he deploys an attack which is indirect and large-scale enough that MEoDP cannot counter. He only has one shot and the majority of his indirect methods are too slow to work here.
So generally I would give this fight for Shiki.

Meanwhile it turns out Emiya Shirou is from the Mind of Steel route and he promptly snaps Touma's neck.
Shiki and Shirou shake hands and then go home, knowing they did a great service for the community.

THE END


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 30, 2013)

As much as I have claim Touma sucks he is actually decent of the last novel, make them kill Shitou... Then again I feel his new incantation is going to be better


----------



## Boomy (Jan 30, 2013)

MAPSK said:
			
		

> And it requires prana to use, prana which can only be channeled thanks to magic fucking circuits.


It's funny how you run from original topic. You said she has potential, yes, but not beacuse of Mystic Eyes but Reality Marble.

And it still doesn't proves that Mystic Eyes needs prana.

Oh well, just see @Kazuakisama post. It works.


> It's not a fucking field, you moron.


It is 


> Are you honestly trying to tell me you think Shiki has a snowball's chance in hell of reacting


No.


> intercepting


No.


> and finally cutting electromagnetic waves?!


Yes. I was talking about cutting.


> Now listen, and learn you some stuff about To Aru


Says the guy who uses info from wiki, so funny and cute.


> Because BoomBaeBoom seems to think Shiki can kill Accelerator. He can't.


And once again. I just said that for lulz, you took that seriously.

But it seems Shiki really kills Fagcelerator 


			
				Kazuakisama said:
			
		

> @boom, where is Shiki's mach 30 feat? I know he has mach 30 reactions/attack speed, but that's it.


He kept up with Ciel in Nanaya mode. Ciel is equal to Arcueid who is mach 30.


			
				MAPSK said:
			
		

> Well if Shiki can't actually move at Mach 30 (and I don't recall him being able to, which is why I found Boom's initial speed claim suspicious)


Strong words from someone who admitted taking info from wiki...

And @willy post. Try to read it.

This discusion is pointless, you're just ignoring everything and take info from wiki which can be not so accurate.


			
				Xellos said:
			
		

> As much as I have claim Touma sucks he is actually decent of the last novel, make them kill Shitou...


You mean Touma gonna win against Shirou? You reallly belive that? Gae Bolg one shoots.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 30, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Shiki being unable to cut Accelerator because of the latter's vector field?
> What kind of hilarious BS is that?
> Since when can Accelerator defend against something as abstract as conceptual attacks?



Not what I'm arguing at all. 



willyvereb said:


> MEoDP is of the highest degree in the Nasuverse amongst these.
> Anything that exist would eventually face destruction.



Except Arcueid 



willyvereb said:


> Mystic Eyes of Death Perception does that.
> If it was alive, it dies.
> If it was intact, it falls apart.
> If it was standing, it crumbles
> ...



I kinda get that. I'm a pretty big fan of Kara no Kyoukai, and Ryougi's MEoDP are infinitely better than Tohno's. But that doesn't make them freaking unbeatable. 



willyvereb said:


> Any source of instability or any scenario where Accelerator's field doesn't work can be a trigger which MEoDP would instantly make possible.
> Also if somebody wonders, Tohno can indeed see the lines on magic fields or other paranormal things.



Problem with that. It's not like a magic field, which is typically portrayed as an amalgamation of finite energy rooted in one place. This is a continual output of energy. What you're proposing Shiki can do is basically saying that if Shiki swiped at the air around radioactive material, it would suddenly stop being radioactive. Forever. Which is dumb.



willyvereb said:


> Like others mentioned, Shiki managed to kill the "world" aka portion of the Supreme Reality Marble of the Earth to make Arcueid vulnerable. That's several degrees more abstract than the vector field which Accelerator maintains.



... wtf...



willyvereb said:


> And that's saying if Shiki even needs to bother with Accelerator's field.
> At times Shiki's attacks can phase through solid objects to hit the target directly without interacting with anything else.



Like how Ryougi cut out something in her own soul in the fourth KnK movie, yeah, I know. Except it's not. Actually. _A barrier._



willyvereb said:


> The details are unclear but basically it works like intangibility.



Which means nothing to Accelerator. Unless his attack doesn't have vectors, it isn't just slipping through.



willyvereb said:


> Accelerator's vector field have yet to show the ability to stop someone or something with such properties.



And Shiki has yet to be shown capable of cutting something like this. Gaia's RM aside (since it's basically the entire environment around him, making it easy to cut), he's never shown himself capable of doing something like halting a continuous output of energy from a source. Again, I invite you to stop looking at it as a field, and see it for what it is. Accelerator is essentially radioactive. He's constantly emitting his own unique form of energy. It's not one thing, it's many things, being emitted constantly from a source (a.k.a Accelerator). So tell me. If Shiki wanted to kill the radioactive properties of an irradiated rock or some such, woild he cut at the air around the rock, or at the rock itself, since the radiation is an inherent quality of the rock?



willyvereb said:


> So yeah, Shiki would have little if any difficulties to kill Accelerator.
> The question is about range.
> True, Nanaya mode Shiki is Mach 30 (equal to Arcueid in speed who has doubled up Servant stats).
> But Darkwing Accelerator and above are Mach 20+.
> ...



They're not anti-matter, but continue. Standard OBD rules place the starting distance at 50m, giving Accelerator plenty of time to attack/get out of his range.[/QUOTE]



willyvereb said:


> So it all depends on Accel's luck. Whether he deploys an attack which is indirect and large-scale enough that MEoDP cannot counter. He only has one shot and the majority of his indirect methods are too slow to work here.
> So generally I would give this fight for Shiki.



I don't think Tohno can tank the force of multiple nukes going off simultaneously everywhere around him. And that's something Accel can do without any effort or prep. Alternatively, he holds his breath and raises the temperature of the air in the surrounding environment until it cooks Tohno alive. I could go on, really. And these are his options without considering Darkwings mode, where he can do to Shiki what he did to Kihara, except his AIM Field doesn't even have to be anywhere near him.



willyvereb said:


> Meanwhile it turns out Emiya Shirou is from the Mind of Steel route and he promptly snaps Touma's neck.
> Shiki and Shirou shake hands and then go home, knowing they did a great service for the community.
> 
> THE END



And meaningless To Aru hate confirmed. Y'know, I didn't come here to bash what you like, so can we please put your personal feelings about a series aside when debating? 



BoomBaeBoom said:


> It's funny how you run from original topic. You said she has potential, yes, but not beacuse of Mystic Eyes but Reality Marble.
> 
> And it still doesn't proves that Mystic Eyes needs prana.



Oh my fucking god you ignorant piece of-*sighs* You know what? I don't even care anymore. This point is totally irrelevant, and arguing with you about it further is just going to give me migraines.



BoomBaeBoom said:


> Says the guy who uses info from wiki, so funny and cute.



Better than you, who's given me nothing except statements unbacked by screenshots, scans, or even any wiki material. Something is better than nothing at all.



BoomBaeBoom said:


> And once again. I just said that for lulz, you took that seriously.
> 
> But it seems Shiki really kills Fagcelerator



Except he doesn't. See Willy's post and my response to it above.



BoomBaeBoom said:


> He kept up with Ciel in Nanaya mode. Ciel is equal to Arcueid who is mach 30.



Does that mean he could actually move at Mach 30, or could he just react/attack at Mach 30? Because he can still "keep up" with her in combat without necessarily having the same movement speed as her. Saying he just "keeps up" tells me nothing.



BoomBaeBoom said:


> Strong words from someone who admitted taking info from wiki...



Again, better than nothing, which is what you've given me.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 30, 2013)

No, Xellos means that the new developments in NT actually make Touma more likable.
Hence he would rather prefer Touma killing Shirou.
As an admitted Shirou fan I'd disagree.
But again, that's a matter of preferences.

An yeah, Shirou would still beat him in a straight combat.
Gae Bolg wouldn't really be needed.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 30, 2013)

This I do agree with. Shirou annihilates Touma. Pretty much everyone here does, really.


----------



## TedMk2 (Jan 30, 2013)

Tir said:


> Accelerator kills Shiki. Being able to see the death point of whatever it is called is useless if the knife can't connect with the dots. I mean, the vector will just redirect it. It can redirect sun light and even unknown matters just as easily, redirecting knife will be just a child's play.


Except the MEoDP don't function on the physical level, they only interact with conceptual death. Which is why it's possible for the users to stab people (e.g. Ryougi and Kohaku) without leaving any wound - the physical knife doesn't actually enter the body. Or, alternatively, there doesn't need to be any apparent physical interaction at all, such as when Ryougi kills the lock in KnK chapter 6, she never makes contact with it.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 30, 2013)

TedMk2 said:


> Except the MEoDP don't function on the physical level, they only interact with conceptual death. Which is why it's possible for the users to stab people (e.g. Ryougi and Kohaku) without leaving any wound - the physical knife doesn't actually enter the body. Or, alternatively, there doesn't need to be any apparent physical interaction at all, such as when Ryougi kills the lock in KnK chapter 6, she never makes contact with it.



I remember that scene, and I'm pretty sure she did have to touch it.

Anyway, I just remembered something. In the event Shiki _can_ kill his field, Accelerator does have one nifty feat involving reestablishing his barrier when under attack. Way way way waaaay back when, Accelerator tried to save Last Order by using Vector Control to purposefully reprogram her brain, which required him to shift his entire AIM Field to do, meaning he had no vector shield while he was doing it. He got shot, and _reestablished his shield inside his brain to stop the bullet from penetrating far enough to kill him._ 

So let's assume Shiki kills the vector shields the first time. Is he going to expect it when they reestablish themselves inside his flesh, preventing his knife from penetrating any meaningful distance, while a pissed off Accelerator grabs his knifing hand and skins him alive using Vector Control?


----------



## Boomy (Jan 30, 2013)

MAPSK said:
			
		

> Oh my fucking god you ignorant piece of-*sighs* You know what? I don't even care anymore. This point is totally irrelevant, and arguing with you about it further is just going to give me migraines.


Yeah, go all butthurt. You will be so popular 


> Better than you, who's given me nothing except statements unbacked by screenshots, scans, or even any wiki material. Something is better than nothing at all.


It's diff matter when someone simply forgot something and someone who didn't even played game and ask a shit. 

My point? Play game. Then you can ask about what do you want.

And if something is wrong from my side @willy can confirm if it's true. I don't see a point why should I tell lies.


> Except he doesn't. See Willy's post and my response to it above.


He said Shiki would win. Most of the things Accel throws at him can be killed. The problem is AoE.


> Does that mean he could actually move at Mach 30, or could he just react/attack at Mach 30? Because he can still "keep up" with her in combat without necessarily having the same movement speed as her. Saying he just "keeps up" tells me nothing.


Yeah, he can move at mach 30. It was clearly stated in Ciel route.


> Again, better than nothing, which is what you've given me.


Those are statements directly from game. And I won't give screenshoots to someone who didn't even played game yet for some reason is disscusing with me.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 30, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> No, Xellos means that the new developments in NT actually make Touma more likable.
> Hence he would rather prefer Touma killing Shirou.
> As an admitted Shirou fan I'd disagree.
> But again, that's a matter of preferences.
> ...



It's annoying to admit, but that is probably the one fist fight that Shirou could win without needing to rely on Avalon. Or it's weird and oddly masochistic regen.

Seriously.



> Problem with that. It's not like a magic field, which is typically portrayed as an amalgamation of finite energy rooted in one place. This is a continual output of energy. What you're proposing Shiki can do is basically saying that if Shiki swiped at the air around radioactive material, it would suddenly stop being radioactive. Forever. Which is dumb.



Congratulations, you just realized how conceptual attacks fuck logic while simultaneously denying it on the basis of it being "dumb".

Thats...not a valid rebuttal, and why you're not being taken seriously, here.

Take it from me, there's a difference between having your ignorance being explained to you, and then there's defending it while insisting that everyone else is just being stupid.

Not how reality works, champ.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 30, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> It's diff matter when someone simply forgot something and someone who didn't even played game and ask a shit.
> 
> My point? Play game. Then you can ask about what do you want.



Are you even speaking English right now?



BoomBaeBoom said:


> And if something is wrong from my side @willy can confirm if it's true. I don't see a point why should I tell lies.



Except they're not lies, you're just misinformed.



BoomBaeBoom said:


> He said Shiki would win. Most of the things Accel throws at him can be killed. The problem is AoE.



And Accelerator has that in _spades_.



BoomBaeBoom said:


> Yeah, he can move at mach 30. It was clearly stated in Ciel route.
> 
> Those are statements directly from game. And I won't give screenshoots to someone who didn't even played game yet for some reason is disscusing with me.



This is like saying you won't give scans to someone to prove your point just because they haven't read the manga. As the age old OBD adage goes, "Scans or GTFO".


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 30, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Congratulations, you just realized how conceptual attacks fuck logic while simultaneously denying it on the basis of it being "dumb".
> 
> Thats...not a valid rebuttal, and why you're not being taken seriously, here.
> 
> ...



Except there's a difference in concept here. The radiation is an inherent quality of the rock. If he cut the air around it, he'd just be killing pre-existing energy given off by the rock, not the actual radioactivity of the rock, which is an inherent quality which would require Shiki to actually cut the rock to kill, not the air around it. I wasn't trying to argue that him killing the radioactivity was dumb, I was claiming him killing it by simply cutting the air around the rock was, as that would not kill any inherent property of the rock.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 30, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> Are you even speaking English right now?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Shut up.

Before you can establish any sort of neccessity for _anyone_ to establish proof of _common knowledge character feats_ the burden of proof is on _you_ to establish that they're necessary.

So.

Prove that Accelerator can regenerate his AIM field immediately after it is "killed". 

Because things just happen to _regenerate all the damn time_ after Shiki stabs them to death.

Please, by all means. Show us this chivalrous OBD spirit you're upholding.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 30, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> Except there's a difference in concept here. The radiation is an inherent quality of the rock. If he cut the air around it, he'd just be killing pre-existing energy given off by the rock, not the actual radioactivity of the rock, which is an inherent quality which would require Shiki to actually cut the rock to kill, not the air around it.



That's a failure of your analogy, not a failure of the power, you twit.

You're just displaying a profound ignorance, especially considering you never stated that the radioactivity was a feature inherent to the substance itself. A number of objects can be exposed to heavy doses of radiation and carry that energy with them long after exposure. 

Which makes it a foreign thing, separate from the rock, therefore rendering it  killable.

Drop it.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 30, 2013)

MAPSK said:
			
		

> Are you even speaking English right now?


Probably. Since English is not my primary language I can't tell if someone understands me.

Doesn't change the fact you're being ignorant again.


> Except they're not lies, you're just misinformed.


TehChron, willy - ask them if what I say is true if you're ignoring my sentences.

And sorry, I'm pretty sure I know more about TM than you.


> And Accelerator has that in spades.


He also has inferior speed. If Shiki will have a clean slash then it's over.


> This is like saying you won't give scans to someone to prove your point just because they haven't read the manga. As the age old OBD adage goes, "Scans or GTFO".


I can take that back at you, wiki says


> Don't demand scans for every stupid thing: If the feat is well known, research your own damn feats if you want to refute.
> 
> Provide scans/vids: Because it's goddamn annoying when you claim Pikachu can create country busting attacks and don't support your claim.


Since I don't see why should I give you scans(first of all it's a bother to search though a whole game) as you admitted you didn't played game.

So don't be a fucking joke and play a game since you sound like an ass. If you're to lazy to play a game then watch various youtube movies.


----------



## Saitomaru (Jan 30, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Shut up.
> 
> Before you can establish any sort of neccessity for _anyone_ to establish proof of _*common knowledge character feats*_ the burden of proof is on _you_ to establish that they're necessary.



I always disagreed with the idea that someone could deny me proof of their claims purely because some people thought that the feats (or the character in some cases from the past) should be common knowledge. I'm not arguing for either side in this side topic but I would appreciate it if someone would be so kind as to provide this noob with proof of these claims. If you really don't want to provide proof just give me a simple "fuck off" and I'll quiet down for the moment.



> You're just displaying a profound ignorance, especially considering you never stated that the radioactivity was a feature inherent to the substance itself. A number of objects can be exposed to heavy doses of radiation and carry that energy with them long after exposure.



Now it sounds like you're just nitpicking... Assuming that the radioactivity WAS and inherent feature of the rock and not just a byproduct of over exposure or whatever; would it be 'killable'?



> Don't demand scans for every stupid thing: If the feat is well known, research your own damn feats if you want to refute.



I thought this referred mostly to mainstream series and well known/commonly used feats. Because for a person such as myself who has never played the games or read/watched/played anything having to do with the series none of their feats would be common knowledge for me. I was also told NOT to rely on the wiki profiles but... This is what his old profile says for speed:



> Speed: Faster than the eye can see; supersonic+ reactions and hypersonic attack speed (supersonic+ even in movements as a Dead Apostle or his future self, Satsujinki)



EDIT: If I come across as rude in anything I said please forgive me. I've been awake for a few days now and I'm currently nursing a migraine.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 30, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Shut up.
> 
> Before you can establish any sort of neccessity for _anyone_ to establish proof of _common knowledge character feats_ the burden of proof is on _you_ to establish that they're necessary.
> 
> ...



I gave you an example of him reforming his vector shield already. Plus, unless he kills the radiation (a.k.a AIM) which is an inherent property of Accelerator, he will continue to give off said radiation even if what's currently in the environment is killed. Ergo, he can reestablish his AIM Field and therefore his vector shields as long as he retains his inherent radioactivity.



TehChron said:


> That's a failure of your analogy, not a failure of the power, you twit.
> 
> You're just displaying a profound ignorance, especially considering you never stated that the radioactivity was a feature inherent to the substance itself. A number of objects can be exposed to heavy doses of radiation and carry that energy with them long after exposure.
> 
> ...



Except in this case, the radioactivity is an inherent quality of Accelerator. I admit, me not saying "radioactive material" and instead going "irradiated rock" was indeed a failure of analogy. But the point about Accelerator's AIM Field being an inherent quality still stands.

This doesn't matter anyway. As willy said, if the match begins and Accelerator has more than a few meters on Shiki, Shiki is dead.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 30, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> I always disagreed with the idea that someone could deny me proof of their claims purely because some people thought that the feats (or the character in some cases from the past) should be common knowledge. I'm not arguing for either side in this side topic but I would appreciate it if someone would be so kind as to provide this noob with proof of these claims. If you really don't want to prove proof just give me a simple "fuck off" and I'll quiet down for the moment.


 The only thing being done here is a reluctance to go to the effort of securing scans.

There are a number of youtube videos in place with english subs to back up these claims.





> Now it sounds like you're just nitpicking... Assuming that the radioactivity WAS and inherent feature of the rock and not just a byproduct of over exposure or whatever; would it be 'killable'?



The rock itself would be the source, so naturally it would die as well, since the radioactivity is inherent to the stone itself. So what Shiki would be slashing would be the rock, not the radioactivity, I believe.

That's why I called it out as a failure of analogy, which it was. He didn't specify. The other language was the result of my own frustration at his childishness.

Also, MAPSK, your rock analogy displayed how worthwhile your suppositions are. Im too old to deal with your tantrums this late at night. Im not 13 anymore, sorry.


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 30, 2013)

Mapsk your example was putting it to someone then putting it again back to himself.. (example is clothes was borrowed and return) why didn't he make two vector shield if he could just make them at will..
what shiki does is kill it (clothes is tattered to bits).... Totally different from your example..


----------



## TedMk2 (Jan 30, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> I remember that scene, and I'm pretty sure she did have to touch it.
> 
> Anyway, I just remembered something. In the event Shiki _can_ kill his field, Accelerator does have one nifty feat involving reestablishing his barrier when under attack. Way way way waaaay back when, Accelerator tried to save Last Order by using Vector Control to purposefully reprogram her brain, which required him to shift his entire AIM Field to do, meaning he had no vector shield while he was doing it. He got shot, and _reestablished his shield inside his brain to stop the bullet from penetrating far enough to kill him._
> 
> So let's assume Shiki kills the vector shields the first time. Is he going to expect it when they reestablish themselves inside his flesh, preventing his knife from penetrating any meaningful distance, while a pissed off Accelerator grabs his knifing hand and skins him alive using Vector Control?


I can't remember if the lock thing required the ruler making contact, but if it did, it only touched the cabinet, and still cut the lock through it. But anyway, there's still the nifty Mirai Fukuin feat to take into account: Ryougi could kill Kuramitsu's ability to see the future, along with the future he was trying to realise, from a distance:





			
				Mirai Fukuin said:
			
		

> One minute from now.
> 
> Ryougi Shiki will turn her attention towards the two parents and their child carrying their shopping appearing at the mouth of the elevator, be caught in the scattering cloud of 1,500 corundums launched from three separate directions, and become scattered chunks of meat.
> 
> ...


Obviously this applies to Ryougi specifically rather than Tohno, but it's worth mentioning.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 30, 2013)

*sighs* Alright, alright. Whatever. I'm going to drop this thing about his shields, because frankly it's not going anywhere good and I'm just not in the mood anymore. I made some mistakes in my analogy, that's my fault. I'm gonna shut up about it, because trying to wrap my head around the rules of the MEoDP is just making my head hurt, and will likely only make me look stupid.

Leaving aside all other matters, Accelerator still wins if we assume that the standard 50m starting distance is being used, as Accelerator has superior range, AoE, and the speed gap isn't too big for it to make a difference if Accelerator has enough distance between himself and Shiki. At any rate, 50m at least gives him enough time to get up into the air, and out of Tohno's reach.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 30, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> I kinda get that. I'm a pretty big fan of Kara no Kyoukai, and Ryougi's MEoDP are infinitely better than Tohno's. But that doesn't make them freaking unbeatable.


Of course it isn't.
But you won't see many characters tanking the MEoDP until you get to powerful cosmics.
Especially in case of Void Shiki.
Albeit I wouldn't underestimate Tohno, either. He won't be slashing cosmics or really abstract entities but anything below that is a free game.




> Problem with that. It's not like a magic field, which is typically portrayed as an amalgamation of finite energy rooted in one place. This is a continual output of energy. What you're proposing Shiki can do is basically saying that if Shiki swiped at the air around radioactive material, it would suddenly stop being radioactive. Forever. Which is dumb.


Except it does.
If Shiki happens to be able to cut the radioactivity (the concept) of a nudget of Uranium, it stops being hazardous.
Just so you'd know. Dead people stay being dead. Forever.



> Like how Ryougi cut out something in her own soul in the fourth KnK movie, yeah, I know. Except it's not. Actually. _A barrier._


Yeah, it pretty much is.
Accelerator has a field which reacts with everything that gets close to him.
Did you even read the novels?




> Which means nothing to Accelerator. Unless his attack doesn't have vectors, it isn't just slipping through.


If it didn't yet then now things are getting ridiculous.
What you claim is essentially a NLF.
Accelerator's defenses have no feats of preventing intangible objects from passing through.
Much less against the abstract conceptual kind which is the MEoDP.
It kind of helps that Accelerator's field is merely a few centimeters from his skin.
So it really isn't any different than Shiki phasing a knife into Kohaku's body.





> And Shiki has yet to be shown capable of cutting something like this. Gaia's RM aside (since it's basically the entire environment around him, making it easy to cut), he's never shown himself capable of doing something like halting a continuous output of energy from a source. Again, I invite you to stop looking at it as a field, and see it for what it is. Accelerator is essentially radioactive. He's constantly emitting his own unique form of energy. It's not one thing, it's many things, being emitted constantly from a source (a.k.a Accelerator). So tell me. If Shiki wanted to kill the radioactive properties of an irradiated rock or some such, woild he cut at the air around the rock, or at the rock itself, since the radiation is an inherent quality of the rock?


I like how you managed to defeat your own argument here.
Yes, both Accelerator's vector field and Gaia's SRM are the same, continuously radiated from their origin.
And that's where you get your answer.
Shiki can kill Accelerator's defenses the same way it killed Gaia around Arcueid.
The source remains intact but the said field won't be reactivated for a while.

As for cutting the radioactive air, I'm not sure Tohno can do that.
Technically, there's a claim that he could even see the "death" of the air but practically he would require to sever countless lines and kill every individual air particle. Which is pretty inconvenient.
Not to mention that the produced vacuum would atttract the surrounding air, making his efforts completely fruitless.

Similarly, he can try to "kill" the irradiated air but that would hardly solve anything.
Besides, radioactivity does not only spread through the air but, surpirse, via radiation.
So yeah, it would be infinitely wiser for Shiki to kill the radioactive rock.
Albeit like you said this is an inherent quality of radioactive materials and I doubt that's something which Tohno can mess with.
He couldn't reverse vampirism and making a radioactive rock safe seems to be similarly difficult.
So at best his cut would make the rock disappear to nothingness (100% radioactive decay).




> They're not anti-matter, but continue. Standard OBD rules place the starting distance at 50m, giving Accelerator plenty of time to attack/get out of his range.


Yeah, they're "Dark Matter" but practically it's the same deal. They disintegrate anything they touch.

And yes, if they're 50 meters apart then Accelerator indeed has more chance to perform multiple attacks or actually do something meaningful.
Albeit in this scenario Tohno is supposed to be right next to Accel (as his "ally").






> I don't think Tohno can tank the force of multiple nukes going off simultaneously everywhere around him. And that's something Accel can do without any effort or prep. Alternatively, he holds his breath and raises the temperature of the air in the surrounding environment until it cooks Tohno alive. I could go on, really. And these are his options without considering Darkwings mode, where he can do to Shiki what he did to Kihara, except his AIM Field doesn't even have to be anywhere near him.


Again, did you even read the novels!?
Seriously, Accelerator cannot do either of these.
His power is the manipulation of vectors.
He can't just wish energy out of nothing.
His defense is powerful but for offense he needs to use something from his surrounding and manipulate them enough to turn them into something terrible.
And most of these attacks require planning and a minor prep.
Dust explosions? Destroy a bunch of cargo boxes with flour and then ignite them with a spark.
Rock avalanche? Manipulate the faint tectonic movements of the earth and coalescence them into a massive wave.
Plasma? Manipulate the winds and gather extreme pressure into one point until it turns into heat.
Relatvisitc Projectiles? Absorb 5 minutes of worth rotation from the Earth.

That's why his Dark Matter wings are convenient as they can attack without such prep requirements.
Aside from that the only thing I can think he can use without any prep are his M7 twisters and his sonic scream.
Mach 7 is relatively slow for a Mach 30 combatant. And the more powerful variations still need prep.
Sonic scream might work but at best it can disorient Shiki. Nanya Mode Shiki may even ignore it entirely.

No, with both his vector field and Dark Matter wings disabled, Accelerator is nearly harmless.
At least when we're talking about a match which won't last for even a second.
Mach 30 ~ 10km/s
50/10,000 = 0.0005 seconds
Accelerator won't have any time to use his more powerful tricks.




> And meaningless To Aru hate confirmed. Y'know, I didn't come here to bash what you like, so can we please put your personal feelings about a series aside when debating?


Amusingly enough, I'm actually amongst the supporters of ToAru.
I think I made more than half of the ToAru calcs (albeit all of them are of the "lazy" type) and plan to do even more in the future.

You just have to realize that ToAru is amongst the most reviled series in the OBD.
It's a common target of mockery and many consider it as a higher level "Method of Test" after the Narutoverse.
If you're throwing tantrums about someone mocking a character or series you happen to like, you may consider leaving this place.
Because you're going to see this happening *a lot*.


----------



## Saitomaru (Jan 30, 2013)

TehChron said:


> The only thing being done here is a reluctance to go to the effort of securing scans.
> 
> There are a number of youtube videos in place with english subs to back up these claims.



Fair enough, I guess I COULD have just searched the character on google. But then I would be forced to sit through who knows how much material in hopes of finding proof for someone else's claim . I figured it'd be easier for the person making the claim (who I assume is more knowledgeable in regards to this character) to dig up the feat that proves his/her claim. You know, because they'd know what to look for. 



> The rock itself would be the source, so naturally it would die as well, since the radioactivity is inherent to the stone itself. So what Shiki would be slashing would be the rock, not the radioactivity, I believe.



Okay.



> That's why I called it out as a failure of analogy, which it was. He didn't specify. The other language was the result of my own frustration at his childishness.



That makes sense. I guess no one likes a bad analogy.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 30, 2013)

Speaking of which, Accel doesn't have much to harm Shiki. He'll try to shoot things, Shiki will just kill it, the same goes for wind, sonic screams or whatever. This giant earth stomp might work though(but I see Shiki killing portion of it ).

And iirc standard distance is 10-20 meters.

Nevermind when Shiki decides to cut Accel then it will just ignore his field, as Shiki becomes intangible like shit.


----------



## Stix (Jan 30, 2013)

....too late to enter the shitstorm.

Just here to say that standard OBD distance is actually 20 meters apart. Although since Shiki is in Accel's side which means they're next to each other.....


EDIT: Ninja'd


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 30, 2013)

@willy: Accelerator has been stated as being capable of channeling enough kinetic energy to equal several times the world's nuclear stockpile. This was a point that arose in an earlier thread. And a lot of Accelerator's attacks seemingly add energy to a system out of nowhere. That's practically how his power works. He "accelerates" things. He's taking a pre-existing vector and amping it. Like with the dust explosion. The energy required for ignition did not already exist in the environment. He added it by increasing the vibration of the molecules in the dust cloud, causing them to combust. He also shot a bunch of projectiles at Touma and others just by touching them. Again, energy seemingly out of nowhere. All Accelerator has to do is be able to touch something, and he can propel it at immense speeds. And in Darkwings mode, he doesn't even have to touch it. Even assuming he just starts out in base, he jumps up and promptly creates a shockwave that propagates through the air with enough force to liquify Tohno's insides. Or he uses the earth stomp.

And if Accelerator doesn't start this fight in Darkwings mode, then why the hell is Shiki allowed to start it in Nanaya mode?

EDIT: @Stix: Thank you for correcting me and being polite about it. I remember hearing from others it was 50m, but apparently they were wrong.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 30, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> Speaking of which, Accel doesn't have much to harm Shiki. He'll try to shoot things, Shiki will just kill it, the same goes for wind, sonic screams or whatever. This giant earth stomp might work though(but I see Shiki killing portion of it ).
> 
> And iirc standard distance is 10-20 meters.
> 
> Nevermind when Shiki decides to cut Accel then it will just ignore his field, as Shiki becomes intangible like shit.


Oh, I forgot Accelerator's earth stomp.
Yeah, that may work.
The only problem that for a Mach 30 character even those may look slow.
So he can either jump over the wave or destroy the mini-avalanche of rocks in his way to advance.
Same for the scenario where Accel kicks a rock towards him at hypersonic speeds.

If someone can ignore his vector defenses Accelerator is boned 90% of the time.
With CIS on, make this 99%.

@MAPSK: He gains the extra energy by leeching it off somewhere. Be it surrounding vibrations or maybe even the earth's movement.
Of course this being fiction, the effect is amplified (the author started writing ToAru at the age of 14, don't expect perfect accuracy, besides Rule of Cool).

So until I see Accel delivering nuke-powered punches, I don't really beleive he could.
I'm going by feats.
Besides, "channeling" is a bit vague.
Accel can certainly manipulate nuke level energies and even above.
But I have yet to see him throwing energy blasts and such.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 30, 2013)

In canon, base Shiki is more or less at the same level as Nanaya physically, iirc.

Hence the stats being applied.


----------



## MAPSK (Jan 30, 2013)

Because he doesn't want to reduce everything around him to rubble for starters? It's simple CIS. And besides, parsimony states the simplest answer is the best. Considering we have no reason to believe Accelerator is taking his energy from elsewhere (except for the rotation feat, and that was only because the energy he required exceeded the total amount he could channel), then he's simply adding it. Does it make sense? No, but this is fiction.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 30, 2013)

I would dare to say that Shiki at the end of Arcueid route is stronger. When he became goddamn God of Death, noting that world is really fragile and he fears to break it.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 30, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> I would dare to say that Shiki at the end of Arcueid route is stronger. When he became goddamn God of Death, noting that world is really fragile and he fears to break it.



World of Cardboard, people.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 30, 2013)

Shiki killed his mortality.

He is immortal now 

Legit.


----------



## Saitomaru (Jan 30, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> Shiki killed his mortality.
> 
> He is immortal now
> 
> Legit.



You aren't serious are you?


----------



## Boomy (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm always serious


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 30, 2013)

BoomBaeBoom said:


> I would dare to say that Shiki at the end of Arcueid route is stronger. When he became goddamn God of Death, noting that world is really fragile and he fears to break it.


Do you mean the "Satsujinki" from Talk/Tsukihime 2 prologue?
Well, the very least that version is strong enough to beat Ciel in a hard duel and kill low tier Dead Apostle Ancestor class vampires like nobody's business.
He can also apparently sneak through Boundary Fields of a DAA's territory and fool the massively superhuman senses of Dead Apostles while he was at it.
Satsujinki would make Sam Fisher scream in jealousy.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 30, 2013)

willyvereb said:
			
		

> Do you mean the "Satsujinki" from Talk/Tsukihime 2 prologue?


Yep, that's the one.


----------



## Kazu (Jan 30, 2013)

In after "shiki can kill accelerator. Discuss."

Also, we should just use satsujinki more often. He's too awesome not to use.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 30, 2013)

Indeed, I can just rename this thread to "Shiki Tono vs Accelerator" with Shirou vs Touma as an extra scenario and it wouldn't make any difference.


To answer the original point of this thread, unless Touma and Shirou has a damn good strategy, they're going to get beaten.
Hard.

T. Shiki = E. Shirou

Bloodlusted Accelerator > Touma > Accelerator w/ CIS/PIS
Accelerator > Emiya Shirou (unless we'd like to argue for Gae Bolg)

The only way is if by some luck Shirou manages to beat Shiki (or perhaps cheat with Gae Bolg) while Touma tries to hold off Accel.
When finished Shirou grabs Touma as a mobile shield and then use him to neutralize Accel's barrier while he delivers the finishing blow.

Needless to say, this strategy would require lot of luck and cooperation.


----------



## Boomy (Jan 30, 2013)

willyvereb said:
			
		

> When finished Shirou grabs Touma as a mobile shield and then use him to neutralize Accel's barrier while he delivers the finishing blow.


Oh please, make it happen


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 30, 2013)

The invisible thing being suppressed we still don't have enough info on?

cutting off touma's arm is an unconventional strategy


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 30, 2013)

Yeah, that might work.
Shirou: I need to borrow this.
Touma: Sure, but what do y-
*Cuts off his arm*
Touma: AAAAAGH! DAMN MISFORTUNE!

...LATER...

Shiki:... Emiya, what's that bloodied thing?
Shirou: Ehhh, nothing special.


----------



## Kazu (Jan 30, 2013)

Shirou w/ GARm+IB?


----------



## Boomy (Jan 30, 2013)

Qinglong said:
			
		

> The invisible thing being suppressed we still don't have enough info on?


iirc Othinus crushed it like a shit but well, Magic God and all...

But who is superior anyway? Majin or La Persona Superiore a Dio?


			
				willyvereb said:
			
		

> Yeah, that might work.
> Shirou: I need to borrow this.
> Touma: Sure, but what do y-
> *Cuts off his arm*
> ...


Ahahaha 

I would give everything to see animation of that


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 30, 2013)

I have my own theory that as Othinus is a luck based enemy the Holy right is her worst enemy at least at full power


----------



## TehChron (Jan 30, 2013)

Xelloss said:


> I have my own theory that as Othinus is a luck based enemy the Holy right is her worst enemy at least at full power



Its more of a roulette, granted, but its more comparable to Selphies Limit Breaks in FFVIII


----------

