# Intel pulls ads over corruption in video game journalism



## Kira Yamato (Oct 5, 2014)

*Intel pulls ads over sexism in video game drama*​


> (CNN) -- On Thursday, a major tech company stepped into the middle of a vicious two-month-long battle among video game fans, scholars, developers and journalists over the representation of women in games.
> 
> Intel has pulled an ad campaign from popular video game news site Gamasutra. The move is in response to a online protest by a group of  by the site's editor-at-large, Leigh Alexander.
> A veteran games journalist, Alexander is one of many writers who have recently been critical of parts of the gamer culture and the male-centric "gamer" identity.
> ...





The  that practically sparked everything.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 5, 2014)

Yeah, people put big tits in women in games, so what ? They also create men that have more muscles than any of us could ever have .

And I don't like big tits, I like small to medium .


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## LesExit (Oct 5, 2014)

It's pretty stupid the way many treat girls who play video games. It's like it's somehow a strange thing...like...it's a freaking video game. What does having a penis have to do with liking to play them o____o??? When I used to be obsessed with mmorpgs I would always make a male character because of how people would treat me as a girl...it's strange 

Games are still largely geared towards males which sucks. I don't think creative ability is under attack, if the game is written and made well and has a male main character...why wouldn't I play it? There really just needs to be more variety, though I think variety is getting better. Hopefully in a decade the amount of women working in the gaming industry will be much higher, cause really it isn't just a guy thing :0


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## Linkofone (Oct 5, 2014)

Shit like this makes me angry. 



> Gamasutra



Never heard of it.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 5, 2014)

LesExit said:


> It's pretty stupid the way many treat girls who play video games. It's like it's somehow a strange thing...like...it's a freaking video game. What does having a penis have to do with liking to play them o____o??? When I used to be obsessed with mmorpgs I would always make a male character because of how people would treat me as a girl...it's strange
> 
> Games are still largely geared towards males which sucks. I don't think creative ability is under attack, if the game is written and made well and has a male main character...why wouldn't I play it? There really just needs to be more variety, though I think variety is getting better. Hopefully in a decade the amount of women working in the gaming industry will be much higher, cause really it isn't just a guy thing :0



Wait, so I read wrong and they are treating actual girls bad ? The only two lines I saw that were about that were ex-boyfriend that said his girlfriend was fucking with a journalist and the part where someone was threatened by trolls .

But in the not off chance I did read it wrong: These guys are fucking idiots, they should enjoy the fact that the market is growing, so now not only the person who made the game you like so much possible, is getting more money, and you'll have more social-like scenarios . When I played these things we would hear a girl voice and we would think that it was a rare specimen, be glad this is changing .


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## Oceania (Oct 5, 2014)

*Rolls eyes* 

They have guys that are overly ripped that no man could ever have.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 5, 2014)

Oceania said:


> *Rolls eyes*
> 
> They have guys that are overly ripped that no man could ever have.



So I'm not the only one that understood the article this way(As women bitching about female hotties in games) ? Thanks god .


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## Chelydra (Oct 5, 2014)

I think women need to find more important things to bitch about, like the treatment of women in third world nations for example.


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## LesExit (Oct 5, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Wait, so I read wrong and they are treating actual girls bad ? The only two lines I saw that were about that were ex-boyfriend that said his girlfriend was fucking with a journalist and the part where someone was threatened by trolls .
> 
> But in the not off chance I did read it wrong: These guys are fucking idiots, they should enjoy the fact that the market is growing, so now not only the person who made the game you like so much possible, is getting more money, and you'll have more social-like scenarios . When I played these things we would hear a girl voice and we would think that it was a rare specimen, be glad this is changing .


No I more bringing up a separate issue about how female games are often treated XD. I don't think it matters if women have big boobs or whatever in video games. As long as theres variety and this is not the majority it shouldn't be a problem.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 5, 2014)

> Sarkeesian contacted the police and had to temporarily leave her home.


Hate to pop people's bubbles, but if you go over to the arcade you'll find most of this is bullshit.


> Around the same time, a game designer named Zoe Quinn was attacked online by an ex-boyfriend who claimed she cheated on him with a games journalist.


"claimed" hahaha


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 5, 2014)

LesExit said:


> No I more bringing up a separate issue about how female games are often treated XD. I don't think it matters if women have big boobs or whatever in video games. As long as theres variety and this is not the majority it shouldn't be a problem.



Thank god, I'm not going crazy .


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## LesExit (Oct 5, 2014)

Chelydra said:


> I think women need to find more important things to bitch about, like the treatment of women in third world nations for example.


Don't get this kind of statement about stuff. People complain about tons of crap that can be said to be less important than other issues. However this specific example you used greatly upsets me because it seems to be implying there aren't tons of women who care about the treatment of women in third world nations because many women see problems in the gaming industry (/ﾟДﾟ)/


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## Chelydra (Oct 5, 2014)

The fact that we are having such an uproar over this is proof enough that some women don't seem to have enough to do with their time, nor have a grasp of what issues are truly important.


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## Oceania (Oct 5, 2014)

I know right, I mean I don't see how a video game women having giant tits is a big social issue.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 5, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Don't get this kind of statement about stuff. People complain about tons of crap that can be said to be less important than other issues. However this specific example you used greatly upsets me because it seems to be implying there aren't tons of women who care about the treatment of women in third world nations /



The two quoted women in the article likely do not.


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## LesExit (Oct 5, 2014)

Chelydra said:


> The fact that we are having such an uproar over this is proof enough that some women don't seem to have enough to do with their time, nor have a grasp of what issues are truly important.


You can care about "unimportant'" issues and "important" issues. 


Oceania said:


> I know right, I mean I don't see how a video game women having giant tits is a big social issue.


ya it's not that serious. It's overdone though. Creative-wise I don't know why people wouldn't change it up...like big boobs aren't that sexy. At least not to me :0


Ringabel said:


> The two quoted women in the article likely do not.


I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't XD


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## sworder (Oct 5, 2014)

most vocal gamers are lonely, mysogynist nerds

no surprise here


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## Risyth (Oct 5, 2014)

LesExit said:


> It's pretty stupid the way many treat girls who play video games. It's like it's somehow a strange thing...like...it's a freaking video game. What does having a penis have to do with liking to play them o____o??? When I used to be obsessed with mmorpgs I would always make a male character because of how people would treat me as a girl...it's strange
> 
> Games are still largely geared towards males which sucks. I don't think creative ability is under attack, if the game is written and made well and has a male main character...why wouldn't I play it? There really just needs to be more variety, though I think variety is getting better. Hopefully in a decade the amount of women working in the gaming industry will be much higher, cause really it isn't just a guy thing :0



*Most of these guys are probably preteens/early teens or lonely, jealous adolescents. Most of the adults don't stoop to these levels.*


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## Mael (Oct 5, 2014)

sworder said:


> most vocal gamers are lonely, mysogynist nerds
> 
> no surprise here



Got no idea what GamerGate is really about now do ya?

It's basically gamers being fed up with gaming journalism and even some developers treating them like utter shit while caving into social justice warriors or in the case of Zoe Quinn complete sociopaths.


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## Nordstrom (Oct 5, 2014)

TBH I feel people just want something to argue about so they can call the police and stuff. I could complain about how Japanese and Korean companies seem to be mass producing Otome games but I'm not, so what's the fucking problem?!


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## NO (Oct 5, 2014)

Why do we have to have a "gaming community"? Why can't we all just be "gamers" and put the rest of the shit aside? It seems like the only ones who are truly anal about the community are the ones who write articles on Kotaku/generic-blog-news-site, comment on those articles, post on gaming reddits, post on NeoGAF, tweet the writers, or write silly youtube comments. You take all that shit away and what we have are just a bunch of people who play games without the needless drama.

Look at how ridiculous this is, the "community" is getting pissed at itself for having a bad "identity" at this point just because a bunch of trolls (who are anonymous) are attacking social justice cues made by prominent female writers and gamers. The problem, apparently, is no longer about social justice, it's about the people perpetuating social justice getting angry at the community for treating them wrongly. They really think the gaming community is full of honest, real people, under anonymous handles so they take every word they say to heart.

That's the fucking problem - if you take anything 100% seriously from an anonymous stranger on the internet, you are absolutely stupid.


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## Xiammes (Oct 5, 2014)

For anyone out of the loop, best head over to the arcade. This article is complete bullshit, the tensions began when every site on the internet was censoring discussion about Zoe's massive conflict of interest, Anita saw a chance to become relevant again and entered the picture.

This a decent recollection of the first week and everything that lead up to this shit.


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## Jagger (Oct 5, 2014)

sworder said:


> most vocal gamers are lonely, mysogynist nerds
> 
> no surprise here


What do you mean by this?

Unless you haven't been following the entire issue with GamerGate.


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## Patchouli (Oct 5, 2014)

> Jontron's bear-like instincts


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## LesExit (Oct 5, 2014)

Risyth said:


> *Most of these guys are probably preteens/early teens or lonely, jealous adolescents. Most of the adults don't stoop to these levels.*


I hope so! ...cause it's so stupid how many guys can act like that ugh. Though I remember playing DC universe and partying up with these two boys...they were like 9...but were so super sweet even thought they kept getting killed :33 They called me Miss Oatmeal. That was a stupid story, but everyone should just be cool to each other and not try to maintain some kind of gender war.


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## Mael (Oct 5, 2014)

Les/Risyth, you guys have no idea what folks are doing, are you?

Smear campaigns got the #notyourshield founder, a single black male, fired from his job, and these are full-grown adults doing this to people like him.


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## Oceania (Oct 5, 2014)

LesExit said:


> You can care about "unimportant'" issues and "important" issues.
> ya it's not that serious. It's overdone though. Creative-wise I don't know why people wouldn't change it up...like big boobs aren't that sexy. At least not to me :0
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't XD



I agree, I'm not real big on the big boobs that japan is obsessed with. I've never really liked it and I feel its way overused. But to be honest I just feel that people just will argue about anything.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 5, 2014)

Xiammes said:


> For anyone out of the loop, best head over to the arcade. This article is complete bullshit, the tensions began when every site on the internet was censoring discussion about Zoe's massive conflict of interest, Anita saw a chance to become relevant again and entered the picture.
> 
> This a decent recollection of the first week and everything that lead up to this shit.



I read till the guy made the Zoe's Post or some ... Then I saw ze truth ... WHO GIVES A FUCK ?


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## RAGING BONER (Oct 5, 2014)

why do i always laugh when i read the words "video game journalist"...?


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## Xiammes (Oct 5, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I read till the guy made the Zoe's Post or some ... Then I saw ze truth ... WHO GIVES A FUCK ?



I guess its acceptable that we allow these journalists ruin a hobby because "who cares if its a woman doing it".



> why do i always laugh when i read the words "video game journalist"...?



because they are all jokes


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 5, 2014)

Xiammes said:


> For anyone out of the loop, best head over to the arcade. This article is complete bullshit, the tensions began when every site on the internet was censoring discussion about Zoe's massive conflict of interest, Anita saw a chance to become relevant again and entered the picture.
> 
> This a decent recollection of the first week and everything that lead up to this shit.





Xiammes said:


> I guess its acceptable that we allow these journalists ruin a hobby because "who cares if its a woman doing it".
> 
> 
> 
> because they are all jokes



I fail to see how anyone can ruin it .


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## Xiammes (Oct 5, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I fail to see how anyone can ruin it .



They have and will continue too, these "journalists" have more power then you think. Disagree with the SJW hivemind? You are now black listed, your game will get no coverage and your named tarnished if it ever comes up. 

We saw this in action when no one posted a article about TYFC when Zoe got them doxed, all the journalists were friends with Zoe and didn't want to cover it.

They are fighting under a mantle of social justice, so if you disagree with them you are either a bigot, racist, sexist, white male.


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## LesExit (Oct 5, 2014)

Oceania said:


> I agree, I'm not real big on the big boobs that japan is obsessed with. I've never really liked it and I feel its way overused. But to be honest I just feel that people just will argue about anything.


Of course they will. People love to complain :3 That's why variety is good though!


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## Patchouli (Oct 5, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I fail to see how anyone can ruin it .



The tl;dr version is that anyone who speaks out against the whole Zoe/Journalism issue is labelled a misogynist, even if the person in question is a woman. Several sites are labeling anyone that plays video games as racist, homophobic, misogynists. Anyone of any prominence that's been vocal against that labeling gets hordes of people who have no idea what's going on calling for their heads. People have lost jobs for speaking out against it, and others have had their personal info leaked. A reporter got a syringe sent to him in the mail for writing an article about it.

tl;dr of this tl;dr: It's been a giant shitstorm.


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## sworder (Oct 5, 2014)

someone tell me where i'm wrong

this entire thing affects

1- gaming journalists, people who get payed for posting their dumb opinions online
2- a small number of indie devs that most people will never hear about trying to gain free publicity for their crappy games
3- the war between the mysogynists vs the sjw feminists

they're all irrelevant 

this doesn't actually affect gaming for 99.99% of the population


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## Patchouli (Oct 5, 2014)

sworder said:


> someone tell me where i'm wrong
> 
> this entire thing affects
> 
> ...



Until you consider that journalism can make or break a game. If sites that gives scores are working together, they can tank a metacritic score. Normally, that'd be an issue of "who cares, if it's a good game then play it." But there's a large number of people that only buy games that have good scores. In addition, some publishers will have it in their contract that a game must reach a specific metacritic score, otherwise the devs who made it will not receive bonuses. Game devs rely on those, not receiving them can literally sink a studio.

So journalists in this case can effect quite a bit for anyone that plays games.


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## Xiammes (Oct 5, 2014)

I fail to see how gaming "journalism" is irrelevant and doesn't affect a large portion of the gaming population.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 5, 2014)

sworder said:


> someone tell me where i'm wrong
> 
> this entire thing affects
> 
> ...


Go a bit deeper and you'll find it effects far more.


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## sworder (Oct 5, 2014)

Patchouli said:


> Until you consider that journalism can make or break a game. If sites that gives scores are working together, they can tank a metacritic score. Normally, that'd be an issue of "who cares, if it's a good game then play it." But there's a large number of people that only buy games that have good scores. In addition, some publishers will have it in their contract that a game must reach a specific metacritic score, otherwise the devs who made it will not receive bonuses. Game devs rely on those, not receiving them can literally sink a studio.
> 
> So journalists in this case can effect quite a bit for anyone that plays games.



that would be true if this was a problem of journalists dishonestly giving games lower scores than they deserve, but I've never heard of that happening

the problem is usually inflated scores, which aren't really a problem



Xiammes said:


> I fail to see how gaming "journalism" is irrelevant and doesn't affect a large portion of the gaming population.



because the quality of a game doesn't actually change just because some people have an opinion


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## LesExit (Oct 5, 2014)

Patchouli said:


> Until you consider that journalism can make or break a game. If sites that gives scores are working together, they can tank a metacritic score. Normally, that'd be an issue of "who cares, if it's a good game then play it." But there's a large number of people that only buy games that have good scores. In addition, some publishers will have it in their contract that a game must reach a specific metacritic score, otherwise the devs who made it will not receive bonuses. Game devs rely on those, not receiving them can literally sink a studio.
> 
> So journalists in this case can effect quite a bit for anyone that plays games.


So then how would you combat this? Make gaming journalists stop writing...try to fight against them with other gaming journalists o____o? 

Also people who listen to those online ratings are lame!! I just look at the screenshots  Those game reviewers act so high and mighty sometimes. Or maybe my standards are low XD idk...


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 5, 2014)

sworder said:


> because the quality of a game doesn't actually change just because some people have an opinion



Some person has an opinion and it ends up ruining the game. You don't think that would ruin the game?


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## sworder (Oct 5, 2014)

Ringabel said:


> Some person has an opinion and it ends up ruining the game. You don't think that would ruin the game?



how would an opinion ruin the game?


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## Xiammes (Oct 5, 2014)

> that would be true if this was a problem of journalists dishonestly giving games lower scores than they deserve, but I've never heard of that happening
> 
> the problem is usually inflated scores, which aren't really a problem



More harmful shit happens, we just had proof that a lot of journalists are part of a email chain that they use to discuss how they are going to cover games and other shit.



> because the quality of a game doesn't actually change just because some people have an opinion



Their opinions can stop people from buying the game, or directly change aspects of game developments. This goes deeper then you might think.




> So then how would you combat this? Make gaming journalists stop writing...try to fight against them with other gaming journalists o____o?



No, a major way was exactly this article, we mass emailed advertisers, making them aware of this shit. Lets see how long they can be "progressive" when the money stops flowing in.

Simple discussing it was doing wonders, if we reach out to developers and publishers and tell them they don't have put up with this bullshit.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 5, 2014)

sworder said:


> how would an opinion ruin the game?



ITT some devs take public or corporate opinion into development.
An idea can make or break things, this is a fact.


LesExit said:


> So then how would you combat this? Make gaming journalists stop writing...try to fight against them with other gaming journalists o____o?
> 
> Also people who listen to those online ratings are lame!! I just look at the screenshots  Those game reviewers act so high and mighty sometimes. Or maybe my standards are low XD idk...



You redefine industry standards. Most of the journalists don't do the required research and write trash or biased articles. You know, Like the CNN article posted here.
It's also why watching and reading  the news isn't really recommended.
It's a representation of the corruption that has been going on for a long time.


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## Patchouli (Oct 5, 2014)

sworder said:


> that would be true if this was a problem of journalists dishonestly giving games lower scores than they deserve, but I've never heard of that happening
> 
> the problem is usually inflated scores, which aren't really a problem
> 
> ...



That happens all the time, like literally all the time. And on the other side of the coin, you've got publishers essentially buying scores by throwing large sums of money at journalists. 



LesExit said:


> So then how would you combat this? Make gaming journalists stop writing...try to fight against them with other gaming journalists o____o?
> 
> Also people who listen to those online ratings are lame!! I just look at the screenshots  Those game reviewers act so high and mighty sometimes. Or maybe my standards are low XD idk...



To be honest, there's not really a way to stop it. Publisher donations alone are enough to keep journalist sites running. And it's very rare for a site to be removed from metacritic.

The only thing people can really do is try to use sites that don't do this kind of thing. Or watch someone like Totalbiscuit, who makes enough money that he wouldn't dabble in all that.


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## Patchouli (Oct 5, 2014)

sworder said:


> how would an opinion ruin the game?



The opinion itself is probably innocuous. It tends to be the score attached to the opinion piece that can do harm. If enough journalists give a genuinely good game a bad score because they feel it's offensive (take games set in times when people were openly racist, games that portray that are then called racist for trying to accurately portray a time), it can genuinely cause harm to studios.

The real root of the problem is that publishers place so much importance on scores. It gives an undue amount of power to people who have time and time again abused it.


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## Gunners (Oct 5, 2014)

sworder said:


> how would an opinion ruin the game?



People are sheep.


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## LesExit (Oct 5, 2014)

Ringabel said:


> You redefine industry standards. Most of the journalists don't do the required research and write trash or biased articles. You know, Like the CNN article posted here.
> It's also why watching and reading  the news isn't really recommended.
> It's a representation of the corruption that has been going on for a long time.


Sounds...challenging. It's not surprising that people do that though, they just want to get their opinions out there.
I thought it was recommended to reach and watch news form not just one source.


Patchouli said:


> To be honest, there's not really a way to stop it. Publisher donations alone are enough to keep journalist sites running. And it's very rare for a site to be removed from metacritic.
> 
> The only thing people can really do is try to use sites that don't do this kind of thing. Or watch someone like Totalbiscuit, who makes enough money that he wouldn't dabble in all that.


So then...the war shall go on :0

Oh I've actually watched something from him before. I don't ever really watch reviews on games, though he seemed cool before. So I'll check him out again :3


Gunners said:


> People are sheep.


not everyone! I went to gamestop a few years ago and put Ultimate Band for wii on the check out counter. The lady looked at me and was like...."you sure you want this...it's gotten awful reviews. You could get something better." 

...and I was just like... "nah " 
cause the pictures looked cool and I played it for hours :'D
People care so much about other peoples opinions!


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## Linkofone (Oct 5, 2014)

> People are sheep.



Most people are sheep.


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## Jagger (Oct 5, 2014)

Gunners said:


> People are sheep.


Woah, fellow internet user.

Please, do tell me more about your educated and unbiased point of view.


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## Gunners (Oct 5, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Woah, fellow internet user.
> 
> Please, do tell me more about your educated and unbiased point of view.



... **


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## sadated_peon (Oct 5, 2014)

Well this is good news. 
CNN wrote a pathetically one sided article about it, but that doesn't matter as what really matters it the money left. 

Game journalism is a fucking sham and a shit show. No one gave a shit for a long time because it was just the usually paid for ratings that we all expected. But now they have turned on the player base and it all come to a head.


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## Zyrax (Oct 5, 2014)

I fail to see how a female with big tits is any different than a male with massive muscles


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## Takahashi (Oct 5, 2014)

Patchouli said:


> If enough journalists give a genuinely good game a bad score because they feel it's offensive (take games set in times when people were openly racist, games that portray that are then called racist for trying to accurately portray a time), it can genuinely cause harm to studios.



Gamespot in particular is pretty ridiculous with that shit.  Although they seem to have such a high reviewer turnover that perhaps I've just had the poor luck of only seeing the worst of the worst in recent memory.


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## wibisana (Oct 5, 2014)

I thought Zoey and Sarkesian is not about tits etc
I mean Zoey allegedly fuck a journalist(Kotaku) and various people so they gave good rating for her game right?
if that is true people have right to complain and tell the truth. and also her side (as we learned) like to play the victims by creating fake/multiple accounts then harass themselves

so they seems to be the victims cards


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## The Faceless Man (Oct 5, 2014)

Well after reading and thinking about it.... i came to realize that i dont really give a darn


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## Megaharrison (Oct 5, 2014)

GamerGate isn't about sexism and women, that's the narrative the SJW's push. It's about the massive corruption in the gamer "journalism" industry. Fixed title.


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## Oceania (Oct 5, 2014)

Zyrax said:


> I fail to see how a female with big tits is any different than a male with massive muscles



Because women do no wrong.


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## LesExit (Oct 5, 2014)

Zyrax said:


> I fail to see how a female with big tits is any different than a male with massive muscles


They're  over exaggerations. Awesome men are super strong, so we must give them super human muscles! Awesome women are sexy, so give them big boobies! That's why I like games with good character creations, you can make them look your version of "awesome"


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## MartyMcFly1 (Oct 5, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Don't get this kind of statement about stuff. People complain about tons of crap that can be said to be less important than other issues. However this specific example you used greatly upsets me because it seems to be implying there aren't tons of women who care about the treatment of women in third world nations because many women see problems in the gaming industry (/ﾟДﾟ)/



There's a difference between complaining about legitimate issues and shrieking over inane nonsense. When bullshit like "women are too pretty and have too nice of boobs and ass in video games!!" Gets the kind of press, and attention it gets, it's hard not to notice the radio silence on actual issues not solely about feeding into the narcissism of SJW fat women.



LesExit said:


> They're  over exaggerations. Awesome men are super strong, so we must give them super human muscles! Awesome women are sexy, so give them big boobies! That's why I like games with good character creations, you can make them look your version of "awesome"



This is stupid. The only way we as men can combat this is by saying, "almost every man in video games looks like they're on a steady diet of steroids and protein, but we don't complain about it" and then your camp will say, "Good, so we should change the representation of men and women in video games!" Even though most men like muscular, strong heroes.

I don't want either changed, and by pointing out the muscular men people are only trying to point out your hypocrisy, not actually encourage a race to the bottom like people in your camp seem to do at every turn.


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## Oceania (Oct 5, 2014)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> There's a difference between complaining about legitimate issues and shrieking over inane nonsense. When bullshit like "women are too pretty and have too nice of boobs and ass in video games!!" Gets the kind of press, and attention it gets, it's hard not to notice the radio silence on actual issues not solely about feeding into the narcissism of SJW fat women.



THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## eHav (Oct 5, 2014)

the only person whose reviews i trust is totalbiscuit. 

and all the bulshit "games are sexist" that keeps being thrown around is retarded. women cant have great bodies, but men can be build like greek gods? pfff the insecurities of some people


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## MartyMcFly1 (Oct 5, 2014)

Oceania said:


> THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!



Watch this video to see how stupid and hypocritical most of these people are: [youtube]CB6TiRJNI-Q[/youtube]
Even more disturbing is how much power and influence they have.

For anyone who doesn't want to watch, basically SJW's threw a tantrum over spider woman having a nice body, crying sexism and then they realized that the picture was basically identical to previous images of spider man. The ass on spiderwoman that made them so upset was exactly the same as Spiderman's.

These people seem to be entirely unprepared to deal with reality, and want to exist in a bubble, 'safe' from anything that could potentially cause insecurity within themselves.


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## Oceania (Oct 5, 2014)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Watch this video to see how stupid and hypocritical most of these people are: [youtube]CB6TiRJNI-Q[/youtube]
> Even more disturbing is how much power and influence they have.
> 
> For anyone who doesn't want to watch, basically SJW's threw a tantrum over spider woman having a nice body, crying sexism and then they realized that the picture was basically identical to previous images of spider man. The ass on spiderwoman that made them so upset was exactly the same as Spiderman's.
> ...



100% agree with you and the video. Not gonna lie I'm out of shape and fat I accept and understand that. I could look good if I wasn't fucking lazy. I mean its not a complex concept. I bet theses are the same people that are quick to judge people who are fit and in shape.


----------



## Gino (Oct 5, 2014)

So GamerGate in the cafe?.........Good


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

> On the other end are gamers who feel their subculture is being threatened. Some game players worry that activists will cause game makers to change their product to please a wider audience.


Oh wahh wahhh, call the fucking waambulance cuz some fucking shut ins want to see big tits and ass in their video games.  Get over yourselves.  If you want sex and violence go watch some porn.

Yeah, I like that video games create good looking male characters... but they also make ugly ones, fat ones, nerdy ones, skinny ones, etc.  Women in video games pretty much allllll look like figure 8's. *cue people showing me some fat, skinny, non curvy girls in games*




Mr. Black Leg said:


> Wait, so I read wrong and they are treating actual girls bad ? The only two lines I saw that were about that were ex-boyfriend that said *HE CLAIMED HIS** girlfriend was fucking with a journalist and the part where someone was threatened by trolls .
> 
> But in the not off chance I did read it wrong: These guys are fucking idiots, they should enjoy the fact that the market is growing, so now not only the person who made the game you like so much possible, is getting more money, and you'll have more social-like scenarios . When I played these things we would hear a girl voice and we would think that it was a rare specimen, be glad this is changing .


Ex boyfriend CLAIMED she was cheating, first of all.
Yes, they should enjoy that the market is growing, I'm surprised they're not because there's 52% of the population they could be making baaaaaaaank on!




Chelydra said:


> I think women need to find more important things to bitch about, like the treatment of women in third world nations for example.


Well I think dudes need to stop bitching about losing some tits in a video game.  Just because we're not talking about the treatment of women in third world countries (a COMPLETE NON SEQUITUR) doesn't mean we don't care about it.  Calm down and post an article about that if you want opinions, don't minimize video games and women's passion to play them and get equal representation within them.




Chelydra said:


> The fact that we are having such an uproar over this is proof enough that some women don't seem to have enough to do with their time, nor have a grasp of what issues are truly important.


Yes, the truly important issues that women are just sex objects and gaming is for men.  Although it is a recreational pastime and not female genital mutilation, it's still a huge part of 1st world culture and deserves scrutiny. 




Oceania said:


> I know right, I mean I don't see how a video game women having giant tits is a big social issue.



It's not just big tits 
See above^

So ugly fat women are the only ones complaining? Because video game women are "too pretty"? 
Generalize much?
[sp]Leigh Alexander:

Zoe Quinn:
[/sp]


----------



## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

Suba, it is also about gaming journalists and even independent developers just treating their readers/users like shit and people getting fed up.


----------



## Gunners (Oct 6, 2014)

You know, when I see a man who is well toned I think, I should get in shape; just sayin'.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> Suba, it is also about gaming journalists and even independent developers just treating their readers/users like shit and people getting fed up.


Treating them like as in calling them out? Minimizing their input?  Calling all men pieces of shit?



			
				Gunners said:
			
		

> You know, when I see a man who is well toned I think, I should get in shape; just sayin'.



Good point. Thank god for Wii, tho amirite   But when I see a big breasted woman I can't be like "Dang, I should grow bigger boobs!"


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Good point. Thank god for Wii, tho amirite   But when I see a big breasted woman I can't be like "Dang, I should grow bigger boobs!"



What if I told ya that all you had to do was mess with your hormone levels a bit?


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 6, 2014)

Ofcourse women only complain when women are fetishized
An example of women being hypocrites :

A female being assumed to be a lesbian due to liking masculine stuff is close minded yet vice vesra is "Common sense"




So basicly, Women want to have there cake and eat it too


----------



## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Treating them like as in calling them out? Minimizing their input?  Calling all men pieces of shit?



As in not taking their critique or input seriously and treating the lot of them, men and women alike, as impressionable idiots by the barrel.  The other issue is gaming journalism (lel) and its egregious rating inflation to those willing to wank or pay for it.  I remember The Last of Us getting rave reviews from everyone and the second Polygon gave it a mediocre review their colleagues went ballistic.  Gaming unfortunately became an echo chamber and all gamers really wanna do is just play some fucking games, not have to deal with extraneous crap.

Also, the big boobs thing.  Wanna know the real funny thing about it?  The Japanese are the real culprits behind it, yet they could give zero fucks about the SJWs shrieking about it.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Ringabel said:


> What if I told ya that all you had to do was mess with your hormone levels a bit?


Plot twist: Ovarian cancer 


Zyrax said:


> Ofcourse women only complain when women are fetishized
> An example of women being hypocrites :
> 
> A female being assumed to be a lesbian due to liking masculine stuff is close minded yet vice vesra is "Common sense"
> ...



Vice versa being that lesbians like masculine stuff and that's common sense?


----------



## cnorwood (Oct 6, 2014)

Is the article wrong tho? Destiny and the extreme rise in mobile games pretty much shows that the era of the "gamer" is over. And at least over at Neogaf many people ive talked to dont seem to realize that and they seem to think the "gamer" has much more power than they actually do


----------



## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

cnorwood said:


> Is the article wrong tho? Destiny and the extreme rise in mobile games pretty much shows that the era of the "gamer" is over. And at least over at Neogaf many people ive talked to dont seem to realize that and they seem to think the "gamer" has much more power than they actually do



But that's a mighty assumption to say console gaming, since the days of Atari and the NES, is over, if that's the impression they're making.


----------



## Hand Banana (Oct 6, 2014)

Women should make more video games, but it would basically be the longest rpg in the world with over 2 billion dialogue scripts, 15 hours of customization, and two minutes of actual action.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Oh wahh wahhh, call the fucking waambulance cuz some fucking shut ins want to see big tits and ass in their video games.  Get over yourselves.  If you want sex and violence go watch some porn.
> 
> Yeah, I like that video games create good looking male characters... but they also make ugly ones, fat ones, nerdy ones, skinny ones, etc.  Women in video games pretty much allllll look like figure 8's. *cue people showing me some fat, skinny, non curvy girls in games*



Take a second to think. 

Those fat ones, nerdy ones, ugly ones, etc. are more often than not the source of ridicule and scorn, by male and female characters alike. 

If we ever had that applied to female characters there would be an even bigger outcry of sexism from the same typical crowd than there is right now. Particularly on the basis of 'shaming' body image. Yet it's funny that rhetoric only seems to not apply to guys as if men can't have such struggles. 



> Ex boyfriend CLAIMED she was cheating, first of all.



Wrong. He not only provided proof, she also admitted to it; but tried to justify it of course. 



> Yes, they should enjoy that the market is growing, I'm surprised they're not because there's 52% of the population they could be making baaaaaaaank on!



No one minds that more women are playing games, the crowd making a fuss don't even really represent that demographic really. They are self-appointed defenders.



> Well I think dudes need to stop bitching about losing some tits in a video game.  Just because we're not talking about the treatment of women in third world countries (a COMPLETE NON SEQUITUR) doesn't mean we don't care about it.  Calm down and post an article about that if you want opinions, don't minimize video games and women's passion to play them and get equal representation within them.



I think such women and their self-appointed defenders should stop bitching about a non-issue to feel important in a vain attempt to make it seem like they are actually making social progress. They aren't. Which is why it is perfectly valid to bring up actual issues relating to gender in the world. The fight is over here, they are just trying to find something to feel important over. 

If you want representation in an entertainment media, it is not other people's job to do it for you. You want more women in video games, then get more women to make video games. The characters will be made to whatever is the creative team's liking. If people receive it well, the game will usually succeed. If they don't then it will not. What these people are essentially trying to do is force things their way, under basically very arbitrary and hypocritical standards.

I'm not gonna bitch about the lack of Latinos in video games, because one, that's something I couldn't care less about. What's more important is the game is good, political correctness is a distant concern. I mean it's not like games are egregiously bigoted. 



> Yes, the truly important issues that women are just sex objects and gaming is for men.  Although it is a recreational pastime and not female genital mutilation, it's still a huge part of 1st world culture and deserves scrutiny.



Women just sex objects? This is hardly the 1800s. A woman has far more autonomy sexually in first-world society than at any other point in history. Even to the point where they can use it to destroy a man's life if they were so vindictive.

No, what the complaint here is clearly, is that men dare to hold ideals on the matters of sexuality, and certain people don't appreciate that because anything involving men must of course be dirty and sexist. 




> It's not just big tits
> See above^



It all ultimately boils down to anger that traits typically heterosexual men find ideal in women being portrayed through the media, which is again stupid and hypocritical. 



> So ugly fat women are the only ones complaining? Because video game women are "too pretty"?
> Generalize much?
> [sp]Leigh Alexander:
> 
> ...



Zoe Quinn is a complete self-serving hypocrite, and exactly what people are talking about is the problem with that group. She's done a lot to suppress efforts in introducing female developers and encouraging a greater female gamer base.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> As in not taking their critique or input seriously and treating the lot of them, men and women alike, as impressionable idiots by the barrel.  The other issue is gaming journalism (lel) and its egregious rating inflation to those willing to wank or pay for it.  I remember The Last of Us getting rave reviews from everyone and the second Polygon gave it a mediocre review their colleagues went ballistic.  Gaming unfortunately became an echo chamber and all gamers really wanna do is just play some fucking games, not have to deal with extraneous crap.
> 
> Also, the big boobs thing.  Wanna know the real funny thing about it?  The Japanese are the real culprits behind it, yet they could give zero fucks about the SJWs shrieking about it.


Game ratings being bs, yes I can agree to that.
Yes, and look at Japan.  Just go look at it. I love Japan, I want to live there, I love studying their culture and getting to know people, but they do have their "quirks"



Seto Kaiba said:


> Take a second to think.
> 
> Those fat ones, nerdy ones, ugly ones, etc. are more often than not the source of ridicule and scorn, by male and female characters alike.
> 
> If we ever had that applied to female characters there would be an even bigger outcry of sexism from the same typical crowd than there is right now. Particularly on the basis of 'shaming' body image. Yet it's funny that rhetoric only seems to not apply to guys as if men can't have such struggles.


Examples? Mario is a chubby, mustachioed plumber and almost everyone loves that guy. Otakon and Old Snake from MGS are pretty revered but they're not smokin' hot, unlike Meryl, Eva, Quiet etc.  
Men can look like many things and be revered, but there's not that great of diversity for a woman to even be close.




> Wrong. He not only provided proof, she also admitted to it; but tried to justify it of course.


Ok, checkmate



> No one minds that more women are playing games, the crowd making a fuss don't even really represent that demographic really. They are self-appointed defenders.
> 
> 
> I think such women and their self-appointed defenders should stop bitching about a non-issue to feel important in a vain attempt to make it seem like they are actually making social progress. They aren't. Which is why it is perfectly valid to bring up actual issues relating to gender in the world. The fight is over here, they are just trying to find something to feel important over.
> .


Well, this IS America after all and when the change to voice opinions, people are gunna do it.


> If you want representation in an entertainment media, it is not other people's job to do it for you. You want more women in video games, then get more women to make video games. The characters will be made to whatever is the creative team's liking. If people receive it well, the game will usually succeed. If they don't then it will not. What these people are essentially trying to do is force things their way, under basically very arbitrary and hypocritical standards.


And this is why there are so many programs starting up to get women in STEM fields 
Children's games, scholarships, knowledge about the pioneers of programming being women, etc. Buuuuuuuuuuuut, go into a STEM graduate class and what do you find?





> I'm not gonna bitch about the lack of Latinos in video games, because one, that's something I couldn't care less about. What's more important is the game is good, political correctness is a distant concern. I mean it's not like games are egregiously bigoted.
> 
> 
> Women just sex objects? This is hardly the 1800s. A woman has far more autonomy sexually in first-world society than at any other point in history. Even to the point where they can use it to destroy a man's life if they were so


They may but do you hear of women as "studs" when they screw a lot of guys? or NEVER hear someone ask a rape victim "why did you go there/wear that/accept a ride from him"?  When that happens, I'll be less concerned about "women as sex objects"


> No, what the complaint here is clearly, is that men dare to hold ideals on the matters of sexuality, and certain people don't appreciate that because anything involving men must of course be dirty and sexist.
> 
> It all ultimately boils down to anger that traits typically heterosexual men find ideal in women being portrayed through the media, which is again stupid and hypocritical.
> 
> Zoe Quinn is a complete self-serving hypocrite, and exactly what people are talking about is the problem with that group. She's done a lot to suppress efforts in introducing female developers and encouraging a greater female gamer base.



I don't care what the fuck Zoe is, people seem to think that people bitch are ugly girls or feminism is for ugly women.  Well, it's not.

Men can hold ideals all they want, equality (yay) but when someone's sexual fantasies/fetishes start creeping into my games, I'm over it.
It's more of an issue, with me at least, that everything has to be about sex, women have to be sexualized, men have to be sexualized.  Go watch some porn if you wanna see people being sexy, if I wanna fucking play a fps or a horror game or an rpg I don't want sexualized scenarios being shoved in my face.
Yes, love games and subplots have romantic elements but if I'm killing Gods in the most brutal ways possible, I don't want to have a random ass sex scene thrown in the middle of it.  Is that too much to ask for? Just some good old fashioned hack and slash?!?!


----------



## Hand Banana (Oct 6, 2014)

I should complain about all the women dancing nude on webcams exploiting man's desire for sex.


----------



## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

> Game ratings being bs, yes I can agree to that.
> Yes, and look at Japan. Just go look at it. I love Japan, I want to live there, I love studying their culture and getting to know people, but they do have their "quirks"



South Korea is better, trust me.  Better food, fewer bizarre eccentricities, better cars, better TVs, better phones, better rail systems, etc.


----------



## Gunners (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Good point. Thank god for Wii, tho amirite   But when I see a big breasted woman I can't be like "Dang, I should grow bigger boobs!"


So? Most people cannot turn into a badass who is muscular and over 6ft tall. 

It's something I find funny when people squawk at the appearance of women in videos game; often times, those same people will cling to the notion that male gamers are some fat, ugly neckbeards. If that was the case, shouldn't they be asking themselves why male gamers do not complain about the appearance of men in videos games?

It's like some people have a hard time understanding that video games are supposed to be a source of entertainment; you have people thinking games have a responsibility to make them feel empowered.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Examples? Mario is a chubby, mustachioed plumber and almost everyone loves that guy. Otakon and Old Snake from MGS are pretty revered but they're not smokin' hot, unlike Meryl, Eva, Quiet etc.



Mario is an extreme exception. Don't try to pretend he's the typical example here. 

The fuck are you even talking about? Otakon was "glammed up" in the latest MGS, and Snake's rapid age was an enormous detriment. Even so, he was always characterized as a handsome guy, especially in his younger years. He's fit, he's in shape, he fits an ideal held by women and men alike. Even during his clean-shaven days. 

People don't raise a stink about seeing an ugly guy or a fat guy, because no one is gonna take seriously claims of sexism against men in portrayal of such. Because the issue of a man's body image is not taken as seriously. 



> Men can look like many things and be revered, but there's not that great of diversity for a woman to even be close.



Mario is not the example, he's an extreme exception. Just look at any form of media and you'll see that more often than not the ideal image of both man and woman alike are what are popularly revered. 



> Well, this IS America after all and when the change to voice opinions, people are gunna do it.



Doesn't change it's a vanity project on their part. 



> And this is why there are so many programs starting up to get women in STEM fields
> Children's games, scholarships, knowledge about the pioneers of programming being women, etc. Buuuuuuuuuuuut, go into a STEM graduate class and what do you find?



The narrative you linked is inherently biased, and what's more doesn't even address what I argued. How does this even count as peer-reviewed? 

More women are in college than men, more scholarships for women than men. Yet even in spite of that the idea that there are less women than men in particular fields is due to inherent sexism? Maybe, to a degree. A very limited one but to just try and make that the core of the matter is ridiculous. 

Like I said, which this doesn't address at all, if the desire is to want more representation of women in games then more women will probably have to make games. It's a stupid thing to do, just from a neutral creative standpoint to just make characters and games to appeal to some politically correct idea of equal representation. The creative direction will go wherever the team feels like, and if it is no good then it will fail. 



> They may but do you hear of women as "studs" when they screw a lot of guys? or NEVER hear someone ask a rape victim "why did you go there/wear that/accept a ride from him"?  When that happens, I'll be less concerned about "women as sex objects"



It's not even a thing widely said about guys anymore, at least not as much as it was in the past. Nobody really cares about anyone's escapades, and it is an increasingly common perception that those doing it are overcompensatory individuals. 

You're trying to mistakenly characterize these as the general narrative on the matters in our society when that isn't even close to the truth. A woman can destroy a man's life on this subject exactly because we hold such sentiments to the contrary. Victim-blaming is completely held in contempt as it should be, rape is taken extremely seriously as it pertains to women at least. Which also comes to where a guy can be destroyed by accusations of such.

I'm less concerned about woman as sex objects now, because they really are not in this society. The sexual revolution happened decades ago, we are far removed from that being a central matter in general society; regardless of what some conservative blowhards may be trying to do.



> I don't care what the fuck Zoe is, people seem to think that people bitch are ugly girls or feminism is for ugly women.  Well, it's not.



I would say Zoe is ugly, personally. Inside and out. 

You don't have to be ugly of course, but people like herself are very dishonest and self-serving, and even at times not of sound mind.



> Men can hold ideals all they want, equality (yay) but when someone's sexual fantasies/fetishes start creeping into my games, I'm over it.



Well that's more of a Japanese thing than western thing, so you may wanna complain to them first, and then see if they care. 



> It's more of an issue, with me at least, that everything has to be about sex, women have to be sexualized, men have to be sexualized.



Apparently, adult human beings are sexual creatures. Sex is an appealing characteristic, the motivation of all entertainment mediums and consumable products is to appeal to their target demographic in hopes they will spend money on them; Sex appeals. Product wants to appeal. So, sometimes the product will in one way or another appeal to ideals pertaining to such. 



> Go watch some porn if you wanna see people being sexy, if I wanna fucking play a fps or a horror game or an rpg I don't want sexualized scenarios being shoved in my face.



You usually don't in such games, yet you are being really prudish otherwise. 



> Yes, love games and subplots have romantic elements but if I'm killing Gods in the most brutal ways possible, I don't want to have a random ass sex scene thrown in the middle of it.  Is that too much to ask for? Just some good old fashioned hack and slash?!?!



You act like such things are at the center of these games, when at most they are little side missions or optional.


----------



## Toroxus (Oct 6, 2014)

I used to play a game called "Rift." And then the expansion came out, and I was so disgusted by the cover, I stopped playing:



The different portrayals of men and women are so radically different, that if you don't notice them, you are either blind, or a horny heterosexual male. I think the only game I ever played that had male and female characters portrayed in an equal light, was Guild Wars. There are sexual and non-sexual options for both genders/sexes.

Even its successor, Guild Wars 2, is so imbalanced and misogynistic. Females are sex objects, and you'll be tasked to find a way to make your female character not look like a slut, and if you're a male, you have no choice, you have to look either like a metal behemoth fridge or find a few armor sets that aren't spiked-metal monstrosities. In GW2, the most revealing armor for females is a thong and a bra, and you have many options of similar styles. In GW2, the most revealing armor for males is a knee-long metel-plated skirt with a metal cuirass + belt thing, and it's the most revealing for males by a long shot.

And don't even talk about Tera. The most revealing male wears form-fitting shorts and half a shirt. While the females have a metal strip glued on their vagina and anus with two glued-on nipple cups.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> South Korea is better, trust me.  Better food, fewer bizarre eccentricities, better cars, better TVs, better phones, better rail systems, etc.



Except for their plastic surgery rates and weirdness about tan skin 
>Friend teaches in Korea
>Gets tan line
>Dermatologist asks if she wants bleached skin
#cultureshock


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Toroxus said:


> I used to play a game called "Rift." And then the expansion came out, and I was so disgusted by the cover, I stopped playing:
> 
> 
> 
> The different portrayals of men and women are so radically different, that if you don't notice them, you are either blind, or a horny heterosexual male. I think the only game I ever played that had male and female characters portrayed in an equal light, was Guild Wars. Even its successor, Guild Wars 2, is so imbalanced and misogynistic.



FFXIV is pretty good.  There's only one difference in m/f armor and it's not a big deal... unless they're going into battle and then it's a huge weak point 

I didn't notice a difference in m/f treatment in GW2 though, I never played the first one so I have no previous version to compare it to.


----------



## Hunted by sister (Oct 6, 2014)

Big tits and nice figure on a female character in game is appereantly a travesty and calls for an uproar, but muscular and impossibly perfect male characters from almost every game ever are totally okay.

I can smell hypocrisy from miles away.

//HbS


----------



## Blue (Oct 6, 2014)

Hunted by sister said:


> Big tits and nice figure on a female character in game is appereantly a travesty and calls for an uproar, but muscular and impossibly perfect male characters from almost every game ever are totally okay.
> 
> I can smell hypocrisy from miles away.
> 
> //HbS



Agreeing with HbS makes a person think "maybe I should introspect a little".

So I introspected

And nope, HbS is still right

Feminist thought on video games is still full of more shit than a constipated elephant


----------



## Toroxus (Oct 6, 2014)

Hunted by sister said:


> Big tits and nice figure on a female character in game is appereantly a travesty, but muscular and impossibly perfect male characters from almost every game ever are totally okay.
> 
> I can smell hypocrisy from miles away.
> 
> //HbS



[sp="Big tits and a nice figure"][/sp]

[sp="Muscular and impossibly perfect"][/sp]


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 6, 2014)

You know it's funny. In media where women are more dominant and the creative direction more heavily influenced by a female audience, it's not like you see a really significant difference in portrayals here. The women, especially the main character are presented as the ideal of beauty, extremely desirable, etc. Prospective love interests all the same.


----------



## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

Toroxus said:


> I used to play a game called "Rift." And then the expansion came out, and I was so disgusted by the cover, I stopped playing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 that armor. So protective XD
The sexualization is sad but also funny...

I don't think it matters that theres sexualization, but I don't think it should be that wide-spread...like just seems really strange. Variety is probably the best thing, and being able to not make your character look like a stripper in character creation 


Seto Kaiba said:


> You know it's funny. In media where women are more dominant and the creative direction more heavily influenced by a female audience, it's not like you see a really significant difference in portrayals here. The women, especially the main character are presented as the ideal of beauty, extremely desirable, etc. Prospective love interests all the same.


We learn that this impossible standard is beautiful! Then freak out forever trying to reach this standard. Though don't realize that we're only making ourselves feel worse because we can't get over the stupid standards we've been taught. It's a nasty cycle


----------



## Hunted by sister (Oct 6, 2014)

Toroxus said:


> [sp="Big tits and a nice figure"][/sp]
> 
> [sp="Muscular and impossibly perfect"][/sp]


And now get Gears of War, Mass Effect, God of War, and several thousand other randomly picked mainstream games.

//HbS


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 6, 2014)

Toroxus said:


> [sp="Big tits and a nice figure"][/sp]
> 
> [sp="Muscular and impossibly perfect"][/sp]



There isn't an ounce of body fat on either.

Also what rock have you been living under?  That type seems to be a pretty popular thing among girls. At least in the fandoms the game appeals to.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Hunted by sister said:


> Big tits and nice figure on a female character in game is appereantly a travesty and calls for an uproar, but *fat, skinny,*muscular and impossibly perfect male characters from almost every game ever are totally okay.
> 
> I can smell hypocrisy from miles away.
> 
> //HbS



Don't tell me about muscular dudes when Chun Li's thighs are bigger than a red wood trunk!




If male video game characters had the SAME sexualized armor as female characters would that make you more or less inclined to play the game?


----------



## Toroxus (Oct 6, 2014)

Hunted by sister said:


> And now get Gears of War, Mass Effect, God of War, and several thousand other randomly picked mainstream games.
> 
> //HbS



Oh, sorry, I can only speak for the games I play.

I gave an example of Tera above, so here's Rift:

Shyla is a teary-eyed pacifist who begs her husband, Hylas to stop trying to take over the world because she misses him and their love. And Shyla, being so deeply in love with the man on her life, is willing to sacrifice tens of thousands of lives giving Hylas second-chances to realize his love for her. In case it wasn't obvious from the armor, Shyla is a protagonist.

[sp=Shyla][/sp]

[sp=Hylas][/sp]


----------



## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> If male video game characters had the SAME sexualized armor as female characters would that make you more or less inclined to play the game?


....woah. That's quite the interesting outfit :3


----------



## Toroxus (Oct 6, 2014)

That reminds me of this image:


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Hunted by sister said:


> And now get Gears of War, Mass Effect, God of War, and several thousand other randomly picked mainstream games.
> 
> //HbS



ME and Biowear in general do a good job of equalizing, I give them credit for that.
God of War and both sexes extremely disfigured.
Gears of War needs more females. Yes they have massive dudes in massive armor but they also have old guys, nerdy guys, skinnier dudes.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Don't tell me about muscular dudes when Chun Li's thighs are bigger than a red wood trunk!



"Don't tell me about something that invalidates point!"

I love the selectivity though! The characters in Street Fighter like Ken and Ryu for example have all the same proportions impossible to achieve. Do you know anything about building muscle mass at all?

Working out isn't gonna make a guy significantly taller, and it definitely is unlikely to make them statuesque. Yet you seem to be dismissing that going to my point about the matter of male body image just not being taken seriously as the female body image. 



> If male video game characters had the SAME sexualized armor as female characters would that make you more or less inclined to play the game?



Would women purchase romance novels if the male love interests in it weren't appealing to them?


----------



## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> ME and Biowear in general do a good job of equalizing, I give them credit for that.
> God of War and both sexes extremely disfigured.
> Gears of War needs more females. Yes they have massive dudes in massive armor but they also have old guys, nerdy guys, skinnier dudes.



Gears of War had females...like Anya, Samantha, Sofia, and Bernadette.  What else did you need?

Warhammer 40K: Space Marine very much featured Lt. Miranda Nero of the Cadian Imperial Guard, an impressive junior officer amidst an ork invasion who held out before the Ultramarines of Capt. Titus (Mark Strong desu), a fucking Space Marine, arrived.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> "Don't tell me about something that invalidates point!"
> 
> I love the selectivity though! The characters in Street Fighter like Ken and Ryu for example have all the same proportions impossible to achieve. Do you know anything about building muscle mass at all?
> 
> ...



Did I deny that men in video games have massively disproportionate proportions? No, I've already decried it.

Yeah, I do know a lot more about working out than you do, unless you're a bodybuilder and I will retract my statement. Well cause an uproar like these women are doing if you don't like how men are portrayed.  Or better yet _go into the video game field and make your own characters_


The stronger your muscles are as a young person, the most the ligaments pull on the bones the longer the bones become!



Video games are not romance novels unless it's a love game.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 6, 2014)

This is just dumb and I can't sympathize with this at all.

No, you don't need more of "X" for the sake of political correctness. You put a greater diversity of characters in for the sake of creative opportunity and nothing more. I really despise this attempt that all it does is try to undermine creative integrity. 

What's even worse is these people think they can speak for every non-white male here.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> Gears of War had females...like Anya, Samantha, Sofia, and Bernadette.  What else did you need?
> 
> Warhammer 40K: Space Marine very much featured Lt. Miranda Nero of the Cadian Imperial Guard, an impressive junior officer amidst an ork invasion who held out before the Ultramarines of Capt. Titus (Mark Strong desu), a fucking Space Marine, arrived.



Good, I'm glad they are slowly incorporating female protagonists that are strong and capable individuals.  Now if there is great diversity between the females and in other games in general, then huzzah, oh happy day.


----------



## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

Toroxus said:


> That reminds me of this image:


You could cut glass with that :3


Seto Kaiba said:


> Would women purchase romance novels if the male love interests in it weren't appealing to them?


Aren't novels kinda different?? The details aren't always that explicit. Though one of the first lesbian romance novels I read, the girls really weren't supposed to be modern day standards of beauty. The author described a lot of their physical imperfections, though that made the story more endearing to me 

I think with physical media, theres a large want for physical perfection though. Though I usually like girls who look more average...and not movie-starish :0!? I'm an odd egg though I think, cause my friends usually disagree with me 



> This is just dumb and I can't sympathize with this at all.
> 
> No, you don't need more of "X" for the sake of political correctness. You put a greater diversity of characters in for the sake of creative opportunity and nothing more. I really despise this attempt that all it does is try to undermine creative integrity.
> 
> What's even worse is these people think they can speak for every non-white male here.


I think people should keep in mind both (/^__^)/ 
though one should never diversify something more just to make people happy. Though people may still be upset with it and not support it, it's there choice as to what they want to make.


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## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Good, I'm glad they are slowly incorporating female protagonists that are strong and capable individuals.  Now if there is great diversity between the females and in other games in general, then huzzah, oh happy day.



That entirely depends on the genre.  If you're looking for it out of let's say a WW2 game from the perspective of the RAF, then look elsewhere because then you're fucking with history where it doesn't belong.


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## Seto Kaiba (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Did I deny that men in video games have massively disproportionate proportions? No, I've already decried it.
> 
> Yeah, I do know a lot more about working out than you do, unless you're a bodybuilder and I will retract my statement. Well cause an uproar like these women are doing if you don't like how men are portrayed.  Or better yet _go into the video game field and make your own characters_



The difference is, I don't care. It's not an issue. I'm not feeling less of a man because of it. 



> The stronger your muscles are as a young person, the most the ligaments pull on the bones the longer the bones become!



Yeah, you're going completely off point here.

You stated that a guy can work himself up to the male examples when it is more often than not, not possible to do so. Not without putting things in their body with some long-term consequences that is. A guy is not going to shoot up to significant height just by working out either, so I'll reiterate that point again if you missed it. 


There's also the matter of genes in relation to the growth of young people, which is something neither of us were even talking about here. 



> Video games are not romance novels unless it's a love game.



It's an example of a field of entertainment dominated by a female audience and whose creative direction is guided by that audience.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Oct 6, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 









I'm just curious, have any of you _ever _heard men complaining that the heroes we look up to are too muscular? Have you _ever _heard a mainstream media outlet give attention to such an issue because it could '_hurt our self esteem_'? When I was a kid I used to watch Dragonball Z all the time. I'd always think "I want to be big & strong like those guys!" Now I'm 22 and I lift 3-4 times a week and am in pretty good shape, likely because of those influences.

I forgot who on this forum said this, but I reference it a lot because it's so fucking true when it comes to describing the way public discourse it handled: "_Men see the top of the mountain and want to reach it, women see the top of the mountain and become hysterically angry that there even is a top of the mountain and declare where they are currently standing the new top of the mountain_,"


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## Toroxus (Oct 6, 2014)

Moving onto League of Legends. I tried to pick the characters the best identified the issues.

So first, we have the males:
[sp][/sp]

Pantheon's Ruthless Skin is probably the most revealing male art in the game. But, what's the focus of the image? Pantheon's genitals? Nope, it's the battle, the fight he's in.

Compared to Officer Caitlyn

[sp][/sp]

She's not even in a fight, and it's actually surprising to see someone's boobs covered so much in LoL. 

I can only think of 6 females in the game that have completely covered breasts (Lux, Kayle, Leona, Vi, Quinn, and Karma), and funnily enough, because they don't appeal to a male audience because they are dressed for battle, all 6 of them are considered lesbians, particularly the first four, because they are typically fully clothed/armored.

So, in the interest of fairness, I went out of my way to find two champions that were similar in art style.

[sp][/sp]

We have Gangplank, like, the very essence of the Man gender stereotype. And again, look at the battle going on. 

And again, in fairness, I tried to find a female of equal combatness.

[sp][/sp]

Akali. So we have a battle, which is a plus for the females, because that rarely happens. However, what is going on in the center of the image? Akali's barely covered crotch.

Compared to the first image of Pantheon. Both are wearing similar amounts of armor, both are in a battle, but where's the focus? The center of Pantheon's image is his shield, and his leg covers his crotch. The center of Akali's image is her crotch, which is very revealed.

I can't even find a muscular women in LoL. They are all petite supermodels, save for Sejuani and Leona. Leona is fully covered in almost all views, except Valkyrie Leona.* Funny thing about Valkyrie Leona, there's a feature in the game where if you walk into a bush, she takes off her cloak so you can see her thong.*

Meanwhile, Sejuani is large, but still has that perfect hourglass shape.


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## Gunners (Oct 6, 2014)

Spoiler tag your images, you div.


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## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> That entirely depends on the genre.  If you're looking for it out of let's say a WW2 game from the perspective of the RAF, then look elsewhere because then you're fucking with history where it doesn't belong.



Then companies need to get on the Russian side, they had plenty of females in their ranks during WW2.

Women _exist_, I guess is what I'm trying to say? 




			
				Seto said:
			
		

> You stated that a guy can work himself up to the male examples when it is more often than not, not possible to do so. Not without putting things in their body with some long-term consequences that is. A guy is not going to shoot up to significant height just by working out, so I'll reiterate that point again if you missed it.



Weight lifting is "putting things in their body"?  And tall, lean women don't exist in video games?  Sure, women can wear high heels but heels were developed for men originally, so why not reclaim that fashion territory once again!  Stand up for your height, man! 



Is He Man a video game? No, He Man is an old cartoon that was turned into a video game.


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## Seto Kaiba (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Weight lifting is "putting things in their body"?  And tall, lean women don't exist in video games?  Sure, women can wear high heels but heels were developed for men originally, so why not reclaim that fashion territory once again!  Stand up for your height, man!



You are dodging my argument, again.


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## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Pretty sure I gave a rebuttal.


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## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Weight lifting is "putting things in their body"?  And tall, lean women don't exist in video games?  Sure, women can wear high heels but heels were developed for men originally, so why not reclaim that fashion territory once again!  Stand up for your height, man!


I really hope they don't...I'll become even shorter in a sea of tall people...


Women could get breast implants tho!? My mom got those...and they're like female video game character size :0


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## Seto Kaiba (Oct 6, 2014)

Not really. You just keep throwing out things completely unrelated to it or stupid strawmen.

Working out will get a guy in shape, give him definition no doubt. It will not likely make him akin to the statuesque ideals presented in media though. You complain that you couldn't do anything to resemble say, Chun-Li, and ignore that the same would apply to men in regards to say someone like Ken or Ryu as well. They are called "ideal" representations for a reason, you know?


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## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Then companies need to get on the Russian side, they had plenty of females in their ranks during WW2.
> 
> Women _exist_, I guess is what I'm trying to say?



Then you present a marketing disparity that's only going to highlight the Russians and overlook the Brits/Americans/Australians/Canadians for the sake of some misbegotten equality.  What about the Pacific theater?  You going to completely ignore that too? 

Same with the Korean War?  Vietnam?  World War 1?

Plus Company of Heroes 2 existed.

You're really not making a good argument here.  It's pretty much, DO IT BECAUSE I SAID SO AND I THINK IT MAKES SENSE!


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## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Not really. You just keep throwing out things completely unrelated to it or stupid strawmen.
> 
> Working out will get a guy in shape, give him definition no doubt. It will not likely make him akin to the statuesque ideals presented in media though. You complain that you couldn't do anything to resemble say, Chun-Li, and ignore that the same would apply to men in regards to say someone like Ken or Ryu as well. They are called "ideal" representations for a reason, you know?


ya working out doesn't make everyone super defined. We're all made differently.I still don't get why people find that attractive tho, I think lanky boys are more attractive then the muscular ones...


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## soulnova (Oct 6, 2014)

So, wait... let me get this straight. Some of you are angry because the games portray muscular impossible guys and these movements are not trying to change that? In any case, I agree men shouldn't be exaggerated like that either. If it bothers, please,  write to you favorite game developer about it to start the change you want. 

We need real looking people for a healthy representation,* for both sides*. 

I don't want to get too deep into this discussion, but a few weeks ago  I was playing Destiny and my 8 year old niece was watching me kill some Fallen and Hive. Then, I got a new armor and decided to check it out. The warlock's armor is like a coat, but this one in particular looked like a long skirt. I asked my niece if she thought it looked cute in my character. She stared at the TV and shrugged. "Well, sure, it looks cute. But if it was me, I wouldn't use that. It might make you trip or get in the way of shooting and fighting" The 8 year old was wondering why would I care if it looks good, rather on how much it can actually help me fight.

Then, in Rayman Legends, the first thing she does is unlock Barbara, because "she's a girl like me and kicks ass".

...And right then, I realized all of this really matters to them. It is in my hands and those around me to make sure the games in the future have someone she can relate to. Someone that she would be proud playing as, or at the very least, females that contribute on some meaningful way to the story.


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## Gunners (Oct 6, 2014)

LesExit said:


> ya working out doesn't make everyone super defined. We're all made differently.I still don't get why people find that attractive tho, I think lanky boys are more attractive then the muscular ones...


I wonder how people would respond to a man saying, "I don't get why people find curvaceous women that attractive, I think slim women are more attractive than their rounded counterparts." 

I've realised that people feel it is okay to openly criticise men or people with sought after traits, but if it is done in reverse those same people will become irate.


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## Hunted by sister (Oct 6, 2014)

So basicly the answers I got were "here's one example that invalidates your entire ten thousand games collection". Cool story, brothers.

//HbS


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## MartyMcFly1 (Oct 6, 2014)

soulnova said:


> So, wait... let me get this straight. Some of you are angry because the games portray muscular impossible guys and these movements are not trying to change that? In any case, I agree men shouldn't be exaggerated like that either. If it bothers, please,  write to you favorite game developer about it to start the change you want.
> 
> We need real looking people for a healthy representation,* for both sides*.


No, people are upset because every perfect looking woman is treated as blasphemy and an unhealthy standard for women to aspire to, meanwhile the perfect men are ignored entirely. Just to be clear, _I don't actually think we should make video game characters uglier/fatter, I think we should be telling SJW's and all the fat women to shut the fuck up because nobody cares that Chun-Li makes them insecure._ The only reason we mention how perfect the men in video games/media look is to highlight hypocrisy, not to cause change.

I actually remember being in middle school and I had a teacher lecturing us about how unrealistic Barbie was and how it created unrealistic beauty standards and blah blah blah. People advocating this stuff don't even get how obviously insecure and pathetic they come across.



LesExit said:


> ya working out doesn't make everyone super defined. We're all made differently.I still don't get why people find that attractive tho, I think lanky boys are more attractive then the muscular ones...



It's all about _you_, isn't it LesExit.


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## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

Also, Sub, I forgot to add one thing about that Warhammer 40K reference.

I'm assuming you're very unfamiliar with the genre/setting, but the Imperial Guard consists of pretty much ordinary men and women with rifles against the most horrid things the galaxy can spawn.  Space Marines (and their female Sister of Battle counterparts) are genetically modified, biologically enhanced, walking battle tanks of pure warrior spirit and curbstomping.  The point of Lt. Nero wasn't about her being a woman which I mistakenly stated in the beginning.  The point, as it should be in many of these games, are normal humans holding on, surviving, and fighting against the tide of aliens and even worse things before the Space Marines arrive.

That's how you do it right, not this I am Woman hear me roar nonsense that people are expecting and tbh I don't think developers even think about half the time.  What you want, Sub, is to essentially have your cake and eat it too.


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## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

Gunners said:


> I wonder how people would respond to a man saying, "I don't get why people find curvaceous women that attractive, I think slim women are more attractive than their rounded counterparts."
> 
> I've realised that people feel it is okay to openly criticise men or people with sought after traits, but if it is done in reverse those same people will become irate.


Would they react badly? I think there'd be a worse response for them saying, "I think women without a huge butt and boobs are ugly." :0 Or wait I think that's what you're trying to say. It's probably because people get upset that they can't reach this standard of beauty that only a small percentage of people actually reach. 

People can be attracted to whatever they want, I don't think we should insult the actual person though.. Like you can say you like skinnish guys more, buuut you should be like, "guys with big muscles look like fucking douchebags cows." lol or something like that. 
For girls I really think it's the face for me 


MartyMcFly1 said:


> It's all about _you_, isn't it LesExit.


When it comes to what I'm personally attracted to....yes ?
Though I'm not really attracted to guys that way.
I just don't get why we have these standards for guys and girls cause I don't agree with them personally so much. 

Are you...angry at that :0?


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## Tranquil Fury (Oct 6, 2014)

soulnova said:


> So, wait... let me get this straight. Some of you are angry because the games portray muscular impossible guys and these movements are not trying to change that? In any case, I agree men shouldn't be exaggerated like that either. If it bothers, please,  write to you favorite game developer about it to start the change you want.
> 
> We need real looking people for a healthy representation,* for both sides*.
> 
> ...



Unless offcourse the women fee it empowers them/makes them sexually liberated?It's amazing how even amongst women there can be different idealogies of feminism(you'll see people called feminists attack each other over this in media a lot). Not like women don't do the same with their adonis men via drooling, don't see women complaining about those to gamers now. 

Mind you I'm not saying people should'nt want women to be treated better as characters in media but considering how some women dress IRL, you may want to question what counts as sexualisation and what counts as liberation because no two women can agree on this. 

I'm also generally against censoring things in general, not all media is family friendly depending on the content/subject matter and it's hard for creators to tell their story if people want to censor words, violence, nudity and such. Mind you this does not apply to pure fanservice games like Dead or Alive but if you're going to make a game on say Hannibal Lecter then censoring the brutality of a cannibalistic serial killer seems silly.


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## Hand Banana (Oct 6, 2014)

The next male superhero should be in skinny jeans and represented by a white male who comes from a privileged family only to run away from it all because he understands the little people and fight for them.


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## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Unless offcourse the women fee it empowers them/makes them sexually liberated?It's amazing how even amongst women there can be different idealogies of feminism(you'll see people called feminists attack each other over this in media a lot). Not like women don't do the same with their adonis men via drooling, don't see women complaining about those to gamers now.
> 
> Mind you I'm not saying people should'nt want women to be treated better as characters in media but considering how some women dress IRL, you may want to question what counts as sexualisation and what counts as liberation because no two women can agree on this.
> 
> I'm also generally against censoring things in general, not all media is family friendly depending on the content/subject matter and it's hard for creators to tell their story if people want to censor words, violence, nudity and such. Mind you this does not apply to pure fanservice games like Dead or Alive but if you're going to make a game on say Hannibal Lecter then censoring the brutality of a cannibalistic serial killer seems silly.


Thats why I really just think variety is good. Like creatively I think people should put out tons of stuff. Some of it being sexualized isn't that big of a deal, we should be able to express ourselves in a multitude of ways. 



Hand Banana said:


> The next male superhero should be in skinny jeans and represented by a white male who comes from a privileged family only to run away from it all because he understands the little people and fight for them.


You've thought up a masterpiece sir :33


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## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

LesExit said:


> You've thought up a masterpiece sir :33



And people will still complain because the protagonist is white and male.

Do you see the slippery slope?  Plus it will be a boring, preachy game that looks like it's beating off to the Occupy Wall Street manifesto.


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## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> And people will still complain because the protagonist is white and male.
> 
> Do you see the slippery slope?  Plus it will be a boring, preachy game that looks like it's beating off to the Occupy Wall Street manifesto.


If the protagonist wasn't white I'd give it like a quarter of a star more just for giving me more colors to look at on the screen then usual, though It'd still be a crap movie :3


oh wait is it a game or a movie!? If game...why no character creation. I'll buy games solely based off of their character creation D:


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## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

LesExit said:


> If the protagonist wasn't white I'd give it like a quarter of a star more just for giving me more colors to look at on the screen then usual, though It'd still be a crap movie :3
> 
> 
> oh wait is it a game or a movie!? If game...why no character creation. I'll buy games solely based off of their character creation D:



...

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?


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## soulnova (Oct 6, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Unless offcourse the women fee it empowers them/makes them sexually liberated?It's amazing how even amongst women there can be different idealogies of feminism(you'll see people called feminists attack each other over this in media a lot). Not like women don't do the same with their adonis men via drooling, don't see women complaining about those to gamers now.
> 
> Mind you I'm not saying people should'nt want women to be treated better as characters in media but considering how some women dress IRL, you may want to question what counts as sexualisation and what counts as liberation because no two women can agree on this.
> 
> I'm also generally against censoring things in general, not all media is family friendly depending on the content/subject matter and it's hard for creators to tell their story if people want to censor words, violence, nudity and such. Mind you this does not apply to pure fanservice games like Dead or Alive but if you're going to make a game on say Hannibal Lecter then censoring the brutality of a cannibalistic serial killer seems silly.



I believe you didn't get my point.  My niece was more interested on the practicality of a piece of armor, rather on how "cute/girly" it looked because this was a "war game". She obviously expected armor to protect without messing with her mobility. 

This kid actually expects a decent level of functional female armor for a "fighting" game... because, why wouldn't she?  Given the context of the game, having less than ideal armor is a glaring mistake. 

That's what we should be worrying about...  given most games have  "fight for your life" mechanics... why would she accept less than what male characters are wearing? In a "social" game, sure, maybe she might focus more on fashion side of things, but for the great majority of games, this is not the case. 

She doesn't even know adults are debating this shit or that this is even an issue at all. Having options of clothing is what should be available in most games. Some revealing clothes? Sure.  _All of them?_ You gotta to be kidding me.


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## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Unless offcourse the women fee it empowers them/makes them sexually liberated?It's amazing how even amongst women there can be different idealogies of feminism(you'll see people called feminists attack each other over this in media a lot). Not like women don't do the same with their adonis men via drooling, don't see women complaining about those to gamers now.
> 
> Mind you I'm not saying people should'nt want women to be treated better as characters in media but considering how some women dress IRL, you may want to question what counts as sexualisation and what counts as liberation because no two women can agree on this.
> 
> I'm also generally against censoring things in general, not all media is family friendly depending on the content/subject matter and it's hard for creators to tell their story if people want to censor words, violence, nudity and such. Mind you this does not apply to pure fanservice games like Dead or Alive but if you're going to make a game on say Hannibal Lecter then censoring the brutality of a cannibalistic serial killer seems silly.



Yes, feeling sexually liberated is great and justified for some characters, but when men try to write it, they just turn into a femme fatale or fall into the Madonna/Whore complex.

Let's see a female Bruce Wayne/playgirl who isn't identified by her sexuality alone.


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## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

> but when men try to write it, they just turn into a femme fatale or fall into the Madonna/Whore complex.



Well isn't this a sweeping generalization?


----------



## Blue (Oct 6, 2014)

How about this

We let men write whatever they want

and let women write whatever they want

And whether it's James Bond or Harry Potter, we shut the fuck up and let the writers write

And if it's phenomenally successful, we not cry about it just because it's what we don't like


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## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> Well isn't this a sweeping generalization?



Yes, yes it is.  I haven't read EVERYTHING by men, but judging from comic books, George RR Martin, 2 and a half men, and other popular media I see some well written female characters but often times not.

I do love examples, tho, so feel free to provide me with some


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## Hand Banana (Oct 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> And people will still complain because the protagonist is white and male.
> 
> Do you see the slippery slope?  Plus it will be a boring, preachy game that looks like it's beating off to the Occupy Wall Street manifesto.



Naw, people won't complain. Shit'll be tight. Add in a fight scene with the Chinese or Russians and then we can add first person shooter elements to it. Also add a moon base and underwater location. And nuke Italy.


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## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

Hand Banana said:


> Naw, people won't complain. Shit'll be tight. Add in a fight scene with the Chinese or Russians and then we can add first person shooter elements to it. A*lso add a moon base and underwater location*. And nuke Italy.



Lol Wolfenstein. 



> 2 and a half men



Now I know you're trolling, Sub.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Blue said:


> How about this
> 
> We let men write whatever they want
> 
> ...




you're including the writers of those "inflammatory" opinion pieces, right?


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> Lol Wolfenstein.
> 
> 
> 
> Now I know you're trolling, Sub.



Wha you don't like 2.5 men?


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## Tranquil Fury (Oct 6, 2014)

soulnova said:


> I believe you didn't get my point.  My niece was more interested on the practicality of a piece of armor, rather on how "cute/girly" it looked because this was a "war game". She obviously expected armor to protect without messing with her mobility.
> 
> *This kid actually expects a decent level of functional female armor for a "fighting" game... because, why wouldn't she?  Given the context of the game, having less than ideal armor is a glaring mistake*.
> 
> ...



Ah this makes sense. Yeah I understand where you're coming from here.


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## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Wha you don't like 2.5 men?



I think only that show could be worse than The Big Bang Theory.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> Well isn't this a sweeping generalization?



But Mael, Twilight which had the female protagonist get kidnapped and fall in love with the hunky vampire who did it was'nt written by Stephenie Meyer a woman.

Only men can miswrite women.


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## Blue (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> you're including the writers of those "inflammatory" opinion pieces, right?



Not that I read them, but yes?


----------



## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> But Mael, Twilight which had the female protagonist get kidnapped and fall in love with the hunky vampire who did it was'nt written by Stephenie Meyer a woman.
> 
> Only men can miswrite women.



Sweet Jesus you're right...no way a woman could've written such garbage like Twilight!


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## Hand Banana (Oct 6, 2014)

Or Harry Potter.


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## MadmanRobz (Oct 6, 2014)

*If I want to play a game but my own dumb ass doesn't like the way that data entities with the keyword "female" attached to them are dressed or look like, the developers are obviously misogynistic assholes who promote the subjugation of women. This is totally an important issue!*

^Average SJW on this topic. 
This isn't even actually debatable FFS. If people or companies want to make skimpy female characters, it's their fucking right to do so. If you don't like it then that just means the game doesn't cater to your demographic, get the hell over it. This isn't something that affects people's general view of women you know.


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 6, 2014)

You all be tripping in acid


----------



## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipcWm4B3EU4#t=51[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> ...
> 
> You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?


I thought we were talking about a movie where we have a white protagonist in a poorly written superhero movie. Though instead of criticizing the movie for simply having a bad plot, people will instead focus on criticizing that the protagonist is a white male. Or maybe you thought the story idea was actually good and didn't catch on to my sarcasm from the previous post :0

Though then you said game, and I enjoy games with character creation cause solves a lot of the diversity issues.


soulnova said:


> I believe you didn't get my point.  My niece was more interested on the practicality of a piece of armor, rather on how "cute/girly" it looked because this was a "war game". She obviously expected armor to protect without messing with her mobility.
> 
> This kid actually expects a decent level of functional female armor for a "fighting" game... because, why wouldn't she?  Given the context of the game, having less than ideal armor is a glaring mistake.
> 
> ...


It definitely takes away the realism of games when you have a person in skimpy armor...thats supposed to protect them. The issues really isn't the revealing armor existing, it's more...how wide-spread it is. Though it really just reflects our culture, which I guess is pretty concerning....


----------



## Blue (Oct 6, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]9MxqSwzFy5w[/YOUTUBE]

The perspective from actual feminists, like Miss Sommers - and myself - is markedly different from the perspectives of the ones who spend far too much time on the internet.


----------



## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

Based Sommers. 

Since 2000 been kicking ass.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> Sweet Jesus you're right...no way a woman could've written such garbage like Twilight!



Bella doesn't fall into the Madonna/whore complex... she's just got Stockholm Syndrome or something. 

Women can surely write shit, I didn't say they couldn't, but all I have to say is: Harry Potter.

Yes, Bella is filled with angst and her tenderoni of a crush is a sexy vampire.
A. People love vampire shit
B. High school girls/boys are angsty.  She's not wrong there.
 I know, I know, I'm defending Stephanie Meyers...
Neither character is hyper sexualized, which is my main draw against the video games: there's always gotta be sex somewhere in there.  Even if I'm sneaking up on commies and tranqing them, I have to throw some tits in there or I won't make bank (false).

I'm not saying any of these programmers are misogynistic, I'm sure misogyny is the same inside companies as it is outside companies.  What I am saying is that they lack female diversity.  See previous posts if you're reply is "Get more women in STEM fields to be programmers" or the like.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Blue said:


> [YOUTUBE]9MxqSwzFy5w[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> The perspective from actual feminists, like Miss Sommers - and myself - is markedly different from the perspectives of the ones who spend far too much time on the internet.



Will definitely watch later, damn work filters 

I spend far too much time on the internet because my job is boring 
What the hell else am I gunna do!?


----------



## Blue (Oct 6, 2014)

This may surprise you, but men like sex

It doesn't really have anything to do with women, gay men like sex too

So things aimed at young men will tend to have some level of sexualization


----------



## neko-sennin (Oct 6, 2014)

So basically, a bunch of butt-hurt menchilldren attacked feminism, and proceeded to demonstrate exactly why it came to exist, all the way down to death and rape threats?


----------



## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

Blue said:


> This may surprise you, but men like sex
> 
> It doesn't really have anything to do with women, gay men like sex too
> 
> So things aimed at young men will tend to have some level of sexualization


Most people like sex >u>?


----------



## Deleted member 198194 (Oct 6, 2014)

neko-sennin said:


> So basically, a bunch of butt-hurt menchilldren attacked feminism, and proceeded to demonstrate exactly why it came to exist, all the way down to death and rape threats?



just because you wear a feminism label and are a victim of misogyny doesn't mean your idiotic delusions about video games are correct


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Blue said:


> This may surprise you, but men like sex
> 
> It doesn't really have anything to do with women, gay men like sex too
> 
> So things aimed at young men will tend to have some level of sexualization



Is sex the only thing men like?  And don't gay guys like other men being sexualized?
Women like sex too! We love it, in fact!  Can we get a Twilight game where all the dudes are shirtless and fit?  Or an FPS where we rescue a hot guy from alien overlords?  Or an Iron Man spin off where Tony Stark in a deeply emotional man who knows how to get in touch with his feminine side AND ravage a lady like there's no tomorrow?
We keep those plots in our romance novels and fan fiction.

There's more to a video game story that plot boobs.


neko-sennin said:


> So basically, a bunch of butt-hurt menchilldren attacked feminism, and proceeded to demonstrate exactly why it came to exist, all the way down to death and rape threats?



I'm just gunna leave this here >.>


----------



## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

neko-sennin said:


> So basically, a bunch of butt-hurt menchilldren attacked feminism, and proceeded to demonstrate exactly why it came to exist, all the way down to death and rape threats?



Looks like someone didn't pay attention to Sommers and the other YT vid.

Yes there were the outliers but that doesn't sum up the entire issue and the OP's article actually really whitewashes Zoe Quinn's whoredom.

Sub looks like you weren't paying attention either.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> Sub looks like you weren't paying attention either.



What did I miss?
I can't watch youtube at work


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## Blue (Oct 6, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Most people like sex >u>?





Subarashii said:


> Women like sex too! We love it, in fact!


Clearly not to the same degree, or of the same fashion, or muscular dudes in jockstraps would be much, much more popular than they are.

I mean, I was trying to keep it simple, but I suppose I could say that men like the physical aspects of sex more than women.


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## Easley (Oct 6, 2014)

Games are meant to be fantastic, not a medium to judge human physical standards. If I wanted reality I'd go outside! haha. When I play an RPG for example, I like my character to look good. Not an average Jane, she must be beautiful, sexy, and strong. I'm not afraid to show off her feminine charms either. Yes, boob armor is silly and everyone knows that, but accentuating a nice figure is pleasing to the eye. A woman can look sexy without being sexualized. "male gaze"...what's that? Women show off their characters too you know! I think we need to lighten up. This isn't life or death...games are entertainment.

It's remarkable how quickly the video game press started talking about the representation of women. Normally I'd applaud them for tackling this issue, but did all these journalists have a sudden epiphany or something? Sexist behavior is _now_ a big thing and never existed before? To my mind it's a cynical attempt to cash in on the trend, not a belief that gaming is a misogynist hell. More visitors, more ad revenue.

I remember an infamous article in Eurogamer titled: "I am sexist". It was written by the site's editor Tom Bramwell. It sounded fake when he first wrote it, and still does. Male readers had a right to feel patronized. The guys who are sexist probably became even more sexist. I bet the site got a lot of clicks though. 

I don't have much respect for game journalism. They jump on a bandwagon and stay on it.


----------



## Mael (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> What did I miss?
> I can't watch youtube at work



Oh yeah I forgot you can't catch that right now.

I'll wait until you can see them for better insight but the real ruckus is over the shitty quality gaming journalism is churning out and literally spurning more than half its market all the while defending literal whores like Zoe Quinn or spineless individuals whose games are terrible/cliche to give rave reviews.

Gamers are sick of it, men and women.  They're sick of the bad treatment and the clickbait articles, and please READ THIS for better insight...fucking all of you.


----------



## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Is sex the only thing men like?  And don't gay guys like other men being sexualized?
> Women like sex too! We love it, in fact!  Can we get a Twilight game where all the dudes are shirtless and fit?  Or an FPS where we rescue a hot guy from alien overlords?  Or an Iron Man spin off where Tony Stark in a deeply emotional man who knows how to get in touch with his feminine side AND ravage a lady like there's no tomorrow?
> We keep those plots in our romance novels and fan fiction.
> 
> There's more to a video game story that plot boobs.


A lot of people probably don't care much about plot and just want to see sexy people :3


Though I can't bag on people for not caring. We should be able to play what we like.


Does anyone here like lightning from final fantasy?
I was her for halloween a few years ago, thought she was pretty cool


----------



## soulnova (Oct 6, 2014)

Blue said:


> So things aimed at young men will tend to have some level of sexualization




Sure. Some shouldn't be that bad. But we can agree that there's a obvious difference between this...


*Spoiler*: __ 











and this...



*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Blue (Oct 6, 2014)

Lightning is my favorite video game character. Ever.

But her games are pretty goddamn far down my list of favorites. Oh well.


----------



## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

Blue said:


> Clearly not to the same degree, or of the same fashion, or muscular dudes in jockstraps would be much, much more popular than they are.
> 
> I mean, I was trying to keep it simple, but I suppose I could say that men like the physical aspects of sex more than women.


How much of it is biological and how much of it is culture? Like with masturbation and how guys are more open about it...but women are more often shy and awkward about it. I think there are differences on average....though there is a lot of downplaying of sexual feelings on the female side that upsets me 

I also don't get what you mean by the physical aspects of sex? Do you mean sexual pleasure...? Or Guys care more about physical appearances than women do, cause I don't think that's very true :0


Blue said:


> Lightning is my favorite video game character. Ever.
> 
> But her games are pretty goddamn far down my list of favorites. Oh well.


YAY! ...though I agree I didn't really like the game >.>
but her...I loved her!!


soulnova said:


> *Spoiler*: __


 such efficient armor


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> I'm just gunna leave this here >.>



It's been made clear the so called feminist was'nt actually a feminist going off the traditional defination. We have a woman condoning cheating and then cheating herself, even abusing her power and influence to silence people(read former boyfriends or women whose men she slept with). Cet "feminist" made dupe accounts harassing herself to gain more sympathy points and cause more controversy. 

No one here is supporting actual misogynists or those morons who made rape threats, they should be arrested. But let's not excuse the behaviour on the other side.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

LesExit said:


> A lot of people probably don't care much about plot and just want to see sexy people :3
> 
> 
> Though I can't bag on people for not caring. We should be able to play what we like.
> ...


Hah, Tony, a man of wisdom.


soulnova said:


> Sure. Some shouldn't be that bad. But we can agree that there's a obvious difference between this...
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



True story




			
				Tranq said:
			
		

> It's been made clear the so called feminist was'nt actually a feminist going off the traditional defination. We have a woman condoning cheating and then cheating herself, even abusing her power and influence to silence people(read former boyfriends or women whose men she slept with). Cet "feminist" made dupe accounts harassing herself to gain more sympathy points and cause more controversy.
> 
> No one here is supporting actual misogynists or those morons who made rape threats, they should be arrested. But let's not excuse the behaviour on the other side.


in that case she's just horrible troll of a person giving feminists a bad  name.


----------



## MadmanRobz (Oct 6, 2014)

soulnova said:


> Sure. Some shouldn't be that bad. But we can agree that there's a obvious difference between this...
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I know exactly what the specific difference between those two sets is.

Those first images are made for people who want to play semi-realistically and can't keep their suspension of disbelief otherwise.

The second set of images is marketed towards *anyone who wants to see it.*

That's it, and nothing else. There's no problem here, so get  over it.


----------



## Easley (Oct 6, 2014)

LesExit said:


> such efficient armor


It looks silly, but sometimes that armor is more protective than full plate! Game rules remember.

If the guys wear similar armor I ain't complaining.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

MadmanRobz said:


> I know exactly what the specific difference between those two sets is.
> 
> Those first images are made for people who want to play semi-realistically and can't keep their suspension of disbelief otherwise.
> 
> ...


You're right, but if you wanna see that why don't you just look at Hentai?


----------



## MadmanRobz (Oct 6, 2014)

And exactly for what reason would I suddenly no longer want to look at attractive women in games just because I also watch hentai?

I watch a lot of hentai, but that doesn't mean I'll get it "out of my system" and suddenly want nothing but buff mountains of muscle in 6 inch thick plate mail in my games.
I like looking at and interacting with characters that I think look nice, that's all there is to it. The skimpy armors and sexy character designs in games are marketed to *me*, and people *like* me. If you're not one of those people, that just means that the game you _want_ to be aimed at you _isn't._

Saying that "game developers need to change" is *literally* just saying "Because other people don't want to make games like I want them, I think the people who make games I don't like should instead just make games like I want them, otherwise they're trying to force me to like what they like and that's oppression."

If you want games that are in a certain way, that's none of their concern or fault. There are only 2 things that dictate what games a dev makes.
1: Money. (What the big companies go by.)
2: They just feel like making a particular game for whatever reason. (Mostly indie developers.)

The game developers of the industry aren't making a point about women in general, they're just making things that they either think will sell really well (_what the industry is fucking *based* on_) or things that they themselves like and would enjoy.
For instance, they like skimpy armors and don't want their game to focus on realism.

Rather than crucifying the people who make games you don't enjoy and burning their teachings on pyres, other people who share your taste for games should just join the gaming industry and make their own games in the way they like them. The problem isn't oppression from sexist assholes, but rather that a certain chunk of the now massive gaming demographic in the world have interests that no one has chosen to cater to yet.

Source: I'm a game programmer in training. If that isn't credible to you then that's fine.

*Edit:* Oh. and also, men are no better portrayed in games than women are. Women may be sexualized, but men almost exclusively portrayed either as depraved and ugly or as an Adonis mountain of perfection which you can count every real life equivalent of on one hand.


----------



## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

Easley said:


> It looks silly, but sometimes that armor is more protective than full plate! Game rules remember.
> 
> If the guys wear similar armor I ain't complaining.


that's so true. It'll probably be a higher level armor with special buffs attached 
It's pretty funny to think about XD
Though games don't have to be super realistic.



Does anyone have any good pictures of revealing armor on guys in games? Want to see them :3


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## MadmanRobz (Oct 6, 2014)

LesExit said:


> Does anyone have any good pictures of revealing armor on guys in games? Want to see them :3



I now have these images explicitly linked to me through my imgur account. I feel like I may have made a mistake. 


*Spoiler*: __ 




They're technically from mods, but hey.





(I wonder how long before this post gets purged by a mod. )


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

MadmanRobz said:


> And exactly for what reason would I suddenly no longer want to look at attractive women in games just because I also watch hentai?
> 
> I watch a lot of hentai, but that doesn't mean I'll get it "out of my system" and suddenly want nothing but buff mountains of muscle in 6 inch thick plate mail in my games.
> I like looking at and interacting with characters that I think look nice, that's all there is to it. The skimpy armors and sexy character designs in games are marketed to *me*, and people *like* me. If you're not one of those people, that just means that the game you _want_ to be aimed at you _isn't._
> ...



You're not writing the games are you?  Cuz I've got some ideas...

Titanfall
Call of Duty: Ghosts
NBA 2k14
Lego Movie videogame
Battlefield
Minecraft
GTA V
Assassin's Creed Black Flag
Infamous 2nd son
Lego Marvel Super heros

I supposed, judging by this list, most gamers aren't just looking for t&a, they're looking for fun and interesting game play.

So why are we even arguing? Give the people what they want! War games, legos, and open worlds!


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

MadmanRobz said:


> I now have these images explicitly linked to me through my imgur account. I feel like I may have made a mistake.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Is that Khal Drogo in sexy armor?
Why would this be purged and not the other stuff too?


----------



## MadmanRobz (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> You're not writing the games are you?  Cuz I've got some ideas...
> 
> Titanfall
> Call of Duty: Ghosts
> ...



...You do realize that the most selling games in the world will always be the ones that cater to the widest audience, right? They sell because they have content that a lot of different demographics are fine with, and few things that they object to. That's all there is to it. 
The NBA games are nothing but clones of each other with new paint slapped on. They only sell because there are a lot of bro-gamers who don't care about originality and just think it's fun to play and are willing to pay for it.

It's representation of men, women or the sports industry is not a factor.

And besides, just because a lot of people want a certain type of game doesn't give them the right to demand it from developers who don't want to make them or who just choose not to.
They don't make games and force you to conform to what they want you to play, they just make games for specific demographics of people that they want to sell to. 
If you're not in that demographic then you just have to go find some other game whose demographic _does_ include you.
You have no rights to demand anything in this regard.

Of course, I am *not* arguing that games where women don't look sexy and dress in skimpy outfits shouldn't be made. I am merely arguing that the only real *issue* with the industry in this particular regard is that there aren't a lot of big developers who want to cater to that demographic.

It's in their full right to choose what they want to sell and who they want to cater to. What your demographic needs is not the deletion of current practices, but actually just for more people with your particular tastes to start making games. It has nothing to do with the companies that make games for other demographics, and people need to stop going on witch hunts against them over it.

Selling games that you want to sell is not the same as oppressing people who want to sell other kinds.



Subarashii said:


> Is that Khal Drogo in sexy armor?
> Why would this be purged and not the other stuff too?


Random google images so I dunno. It could be him.
And it might be purged 'cus it's off-topic.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 6, 2014)

MadmanRobz said:


> ...You do realize that the most selling games in the world will always be the ones that cater to the widest audience, right? They sell because they have content that a lot of different demographics are fine with, and few things that they object to. That's all there is to it.
> The NBA games are nothing but clones of each other with new paint slapped on. They only sell because there are a lot of bro-gamers who don't care about originality and just think it's fun to play and are willing to pay for it.
> 
> It's representation of men, women or the sports industry is not a factor.
> ...


So they don't listen to gamers at all?  They say "fuck it, I don't care how many people do or do not want this game to be made, I'm gunna make a shitty game because *I* want to make it"???
So... WE shouldn't be arguing, I should be taking this up with video game companies.

I guess, I'm not saying they shouldn't make those games either, but at least give women an equally scantily clad male to oogle at.


> Random google images so I dunno. It could be him.
> And it might be purged 'cus it's off-topic.



I thought it was on topic, someone asked for some sexified male armor


----------



## Hand Banana (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> You're not writing the games are you?  Cuz I've got some ideas...
> 
> Titanfall
> Call of Duty: Ghosts
> ...



Every game you listed with the exception of NBA 2K14 is based off fictional character who are in shape and the stereotypical hero right?


----------



## Deleted member 222538 (Oct 6, 2014)

But they aint shirtless and showing a whole bunch of skin now are they?


----------



## Hand Banana (Oct 6, 2014)

They do in the games at some point. Except Legos.


----------



## soulnova (Oct 6, 2014)

MadmanRobz, I, in fact, telling people to write to their favorite game developers to show there's interest on such issues. 

With my 8yro niece, I sometimes worry there aren't many games for her age (beyond platformers) with a female character that she can play. We adults can enjoy Tomb Raider, The Last Of Us, Mirror's Edge, etc,... we can even make our own female character in Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Elder's Scrolls...  

The only thing in among my games is Child of Light, which has a young girl's journey through a magical land...  the battle system is tricky (to say the least) so I might have to be present to help her out if she gets stuck.  I was also considering introducing her to Pokemon. I asked her what does she likes the mos, and the answer was adventure games where she "can explore and discover many things". She was playing Legend of Zelda: Link between worlds and she loved it, so I guess games like that are a safe bet.

I do want to support a game market for her and any children I might have in the future. If you have any other suggestion of games with a female lead (rated E) I would really appreciate if you share it with me.


----------



## HolyHands (Oct 6, 2014)

> And besides, just because a lot of people want a certain type of game doesn't give them the right to demand it from developers who don't want to make them or who just choose not to.They don't make games and force you to conform to what they want you to play, they just make games for specific demographics of people that they want to sell to.



The issue I have with this argument is that it's rather odd to hear it coming from the gaming community. I mean, if there's one thing I learned from gamers and being a gamer all my life, it's that we LOVE to complain and raise our voice whenever there's an issue. If a company releases a crappy story, you can bet they will hear from gamers on it, and they'll be rightfully mocked if they try to pull the "artistic vision" argument to justify bad writing. If a company remakes a character (Dante) in a way fans don't like, they'll hear about it. If a company includes some intrusive form of DRM, they'll hear about it. If a company tries to include overpriced DLC on the first day, they'll hear about it.

It's just feedback, and people DO have the right to give it, and they DO have the right to demand things from developers because this is a public product and people are allowed to speak their minds on it. It's a blatant double-standard if you're going to let people complain to their hearts content on any other aspect of a game, but somehow act like it's forbidden to bring up gender representation. I tend to mock SJWs who complain endlessly about how horrible it is that a female is portrayed as attractive, but there IS a valid complaint when it comes to lack of female characters, and it's valid to bring it up. Some developers will hear the feedback and change it accordingly, and others will not. And they'll probably be praised and bashed regardless of what choice they make, such is the nature of the internet which gives everyone a voice.

There's a lot of mindless noise out there, but I feel that we've approached a point where it's silly to claim that non-white male protagonists won't sell, and that goes for movies, books, and games seeing as how there's numerous products (Frozen, MLP, Hunger Games, Twilight) that shows that there is indeed a market for women, and companies would be silly to ignore it. The reason why feminists complain is because there are still producers who will refuse a game that has a minority protagonist, and they should be called out on it.


----------



## MadmanRobz (Oct 6, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> So they don't listen to gamers at all?  They say "fuck it, I don't care how many people do or do not want this game to be made, I'm gunna make a shitty game because *I* want to make it"???
> So... WE shouldn't be arguing, I should be taking this up with video game companies.



You've got it all wrong. "Gamers" aren't one huge community that tell companies what to make, they're just individual people with a certain hobby. No companies make games for "All Gamers," they make them for multiple, _specific_, smaller niches in the overall audience, in the same way that movies are made to cater to different genres like "fans of romance and comedy" and "fans of horror" etc.

Here's how the industry actually works:

*The companies who go by the "just-make-money-goal" function in accordance with the following guidelines:*

1: "Who do we want to sell to?" = Determines _who_ their games are designed to interest. ("The Demographic")
This does *not* mean "our game must fit all gamers." It means that the demographics other than their own don't matter. If we want to make an FPS CoD clone, we don't care if the dating-sim gamers want us to add romantic elements. This game is made for FPS fans.
If they want romance, they're looking in the wrong place.

2: "What are these people interested in paying for?" = Determines *what* they put into the game to attract that specific demographic.

That's it. The only differences between companies with the "just-make-money-goal" is what demographics they try to sell to, and how many demographics they try to include. *Nothing* they do is a statement to society, their games are nothing more (or less) than "whatever we think our targeted audience wants to buy right now."


*The companies who go by the "just-make what we want to make" model function in accordance with the following guidelines:*

1: "What kind of game do we want to make right now?" = Determines *what* kind of content they put into their game.

2: "What are we *capable* of making right now?" = Determines their own limitations to work by.

This is what a lot of indie devs do, and these games will simply be however the hell the dev wants it to be, not bothering with a demographic and instead just letting people buy it if they happen to be interested in it, but if they don't want it then that's fine.


If a game is functional, the only way that it can be "shitty" is if they _explicitly try_ to aim it towards a certain demographic _and don't succeed._
An FPS with romance mechanics could be "shitty" only because it _isn't what it's trying to be_, not because it's an FPS with romance mechanics. If the developer _intended_ to make the game exactly like that, and _isn't_ trying to cater it to a demographic that doesn't like it, that game is by definition not "shitty" no matter how few people like it.

People have no right to complain that companies should tone down the sexiness of their characters. That's up to them to choose if they want or not, and gamers aren't entitled to order the companies what they must make. 
There is no such thing as "A lot of people want this type of game, so obviously the companies must make them like that."
They "must" do nothing, you are literally just whining about the fact that most developers aren't interested in making games that cater specifically to you.

It's their right to choose who they cater to, and there's nothing wrong with that.

As I've already said, the problem is *not* with the practices of the companies and the developers, it's with the fact that there simply aren't a lot of people with your tastes that pursue a career in making games, and thus games that cater to you aren't as common.



Subarashii said:


> I guess, I'm not saying they shouldn't make those games either, but at least give women an equally scantily clad male to oogle at.


This argument always annoys me.
*They actually do this more often than not, but fanservice aimed at men is more immediately distinctive and more whined about. There are plenty of games with male characters that puts even the most handsome of IRL men to shame.*

Have you never noticed that most men in video games are at a physical peak far beyond what real men could ever even dream of? Brimming with perfect and symmetric muscles that one would need to dedicate their whole life towards maintaining IRL?

Nudity is not a requirement for fanservice.

Video game characters are not supposed to represent real people, they are just designs made to be liked by specific kinds of people. There's nothing wrong with that.


Subarashii said:


> I thought it was on topic, someone asked for some sexified male armor


That doesn't make it on topic. If the request has no relevance towards the discussion that the topic was made for, it's off-topic. Sometimes mods delete stuff like that, sometimes they don't.


----------



## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

soulnova said:


> MadmanRobz, I, in fact, telling people to write to their favorite game developers to show there's interest on such issues.
> 
> With my 8yro niece, I sometimes worry there aren't many games for her age (beyond platformers) with a female character that she can play. *We adults can enjoy Tomb Raider, The Last Of Us, Mirror's Edge, etc,... we can even make our own female character in Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Elder's Scrolls...  *
> 
> ...


Sucks there isn't as much out....
I'm not really sure. I don't remember ever really playing games as females when I was younger besides these


...but that's probably not what you're looking for XD
I would like a larger gamer market for young girls that isn't largely made up of, horse-riding and dress up games lol...


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 6, 2014)

> There's a lot of mindless noise out there, but I feel that we've approached a point where it's silly to claim that non-white male protagonists won't sell, and that goes for movies, books, and games seeing as how there's numerous products (Frozen, MLP, Hunger Games, Twilight) that shows that there is indeed a market for women, and companies would be silly to ignore it. The reason why feminists complain is because there are still producers who will refuse a game that has a minority protagonist, and they should be called out on it.



Except none of this has to do with what they are raising a stink about. They aren't faulting developers, since they have the big bucks....they are going after the gamers themselves. Particularly on the basis of being inherently misogynistic and generally intolerant, which is baseless.

Not even ignoring the fact that we have plenty of successful titles with female protagonists or have featured them, or have featured minority protags as well. Like I said before they just jumped on this as a vanity project to feel important and accomplished while putting in the least effort. Since we as a society have already come far as it is without them, not to mention they don't represent progress anyway, just selectivity and special treatment.


----------



## Buskuv (Oct 6, 2014)

Blue said:


> Lightning is my favorite video game character. Ever.
> 
> But her games are pretty goddamn far down my list of favorites. Oh well.



Hold the fucking phone.

Am I being trolled here?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 6, 2014)

Lightning is terrible and her games are terrible.


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## Gunners (Oct 6, 2014)

Lightning isn't a bad protagonist but FF13 is pretty shit.


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## Buskuv (Oct 6, 2014)

Lightning is post Advent Children Cloud with breasts.

And not even in a good way, which it could have been.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 6, 2014)

Blue said:


> Lightning is my favorite video game character. Ever.
> 
> But her games are pretty goddamn far down my list of favorites. Oh well.



How many games have you played?

Lightning is basically Aye Brea


----------



## MadmanRobz (Oct 6, 2014)

soulnova said:


> MadmanRobz, I, in fact, telling people to write to their favorite game developers to show there's interest on such issues.
> 
> With my 8yro niece, I sometimes worry there aren't many games for her age (beyond platformers) with a female character that she can play. We adults can enjoy Tomb Raider, The Last Of Us, Mirror's Edge, etc,... we can even make our own female character in Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Elder's Scrolls...
> 
> ...



Of course, you are completely justified in worrying about that. Certain demographics do lack good titles, the problem with the complaints is that gaming companies aren't under any obligation to cater to that. Being a game developer doesn't mean it's your duty to make specific games just because there aren't many good iterations of them.

If some genres are lacking in good titles, that isn't something that you should really go to developers of other genres with.
Of course, you can always write in and ask them if they'd consider it, but ultimately it's not their job or responsibility. All you can do is either ask nicely if they'd be interested, or go for it yourself. It doesn't actually concern them unless they want to sell a game to you _or_ if they just want to be nice.

Imagine if people started demanding a revolt against authors because there hasn't been any good books for the (for example) horror genre. It has nothing to do with the authors who write different books, it's just that there aren't any authors around at the time who are writing for it. It's unfortunate, but not the fault of the "author community."



soulnova said:


> If you have any other suggestion of games with a female lead (rated E) I would really appreciate if you share it with me.




Based on what you said about your niece's tastes, I can't recall any games like that with a female lead just off the top of my head.

However, excluding the demand for a female lead character, I would highly, _highly_ recommend "Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets" for the PC. It is in my opinion one of the best games ever made, and features a very balanced combination of straight gameplay progression _and_ tons and tons of exploring of Hogwarts, with many dozens of hidden rooms and places for you to discover behind mirrors, cobwebs and walls.
The spell casting system is incredibly simple(Only press Left Mouse Button), but amazingly satisfying and fun, and you get to use it in a lot of creative ways.

It's not easy to describe and do justice, but I feel confident that she would definitely enjoy it.
(I believe having watched the 2 first movies contributes greatly to the experience, but I'm certain it's still a lot of fun anyway.)
Note: The PC version is amazing, you should get her that one. There is a version for the PS1, and while it's a decent game in itself, it's also incredibly different from the PC version, and not as good.

Overall, I've 100% it in less than 10 hours, but I knew exactly what I was doing and did it super efficiently.
If you buy a child one game in their life, I'd tell you to buy this one.

To a lesser extent, the sequel, "Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban" for PC is very similar and also a great game for kids, and you get to play as Hermione about 1/3 of the time.


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## Buskuv (Oct 6, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> How many games have you played?
> 
> Lightning is basically Aye Brea



An odd statement, considering if you're talking about the first two games, that's an insult, and if you're talking about 3rd Birthday, it's magically accurate, armpit fetishizing and all.


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## Deleted member 222538 (Oct 6, 2014)

Alright guys FF13 wasnt that bad. That was a force. Although I did enjoy the earlier FF titles a little more. The combat was pretty good. Just wished you could transform like with Yuna, Paine and Rikku.


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## Blue (Oct 6, 2014)

Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> Hold the fucking phone.
> 
> Am I being trolled here?



Fight me.

Chrono Trigger is still my favorite game but how am I to love any of Toriyama's mongoloids?

And "Cloud with breasts" seems like a pretty winning combination to me


----------



## Buskuv (Oct 6, 2014)

'Cloud with Breasts' is a winning combination.

However, there's a tiny 'post Advent Children' modifier in there that makes a world of difference.  Ergo, she has almost no character, which is a damn shame because FF XIII should have been magnificent and was a chance to do something new with their characters, but... well.

Also, villain or not, I'd have thought Kerrigan (pre-SC2) would have been your favorite, Blue.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 6, 2014)

Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> An odd statement, considering if you're talking about the first two games, that's an insult, and if you're talking about 3rd Birthday, it's magically accurate, armpit fetishizing and all.



Never said she was a good pastiche/clone/expy. But agreed especially on the garbage that was 3rd Birthday.


----------



## Gunners (Oct 6, 2014)

It's pretty difficult for me to dislike a protagonist in any medium to be honest, even if they are bland; I care more about them advancing the story and their supporting cast. In recent years, I've only disliked Dino.


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## Blue (Oct 6, 2014)

Okay Kerrigan was pretty cool but Lightning is getting a lot of points for character design over her. I'm a little superficial and Chris Metzen was a shitty artist.

Although that's a good guess, I just gave it 20 minutes of thought and Kerrigan would have to be #2

Franziska von Karma getting honorable mention


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## Buskuv (Oct 6, 2014)

Are we talking the first Lighting design? Because she gets pretty Tetsuya 'belts and zippers' Nomura in the last game, and arguably in the second.


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## LesExit (Oct 6, 2014)

Gunners said:


> Lightning isn't a bad protagonist but FF13 is pretty shit.


I really like lightning...but ya FF13 the game not that great of a game. I honestly didn't even finish the game, just watched cutscenes online :33


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## Blue (Oct 6, 2014)

I only finished XIII after playing, loving, and finishing XIII-2.

That was a great game, don't care whatchaall say.

Haven't played Lightning Returns, it looks terrible.


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## Deleted member 222538 (Oct 6, 2014)

^ No it wasnt. Mass Effect 2 was a great game. FFIII-2 falls short.


----------



## neko-sennin (Oct 7, 2014)

Mael said:


> Looks like someone didn't pay attention to Sommers and the other YT vid.
> 
> Yes there were the outliers but that doesn't sum up the entire issue and the OP's article actually really whitewashes Zoe Quinn's whoredom.




So, if the person making the offending YT vid were male, he would totally get bombed with graphic, stalker-fic rape and torture threats, right? 

...Oh. So I guess the point still stands, regardless of whether a vid lines up with popular opinion or not, the response will always be disproportionate as long the speaker is female. 

My wi-fi streaming sucks, so I never saw the video, I was merely commenting on all of the vitriol that is exclusively directed at women for presenting an unpopular opinion, and their own childish inability to actually address the substance of any of her arguments, and completely muddy the issue with their own sexual frustration.

By the same token, if it was a man who used personal relationships with game journalists for their own gain, would he come home and open his comments to find the latest installment of Rape Fic Theater Presents?


----------



## Chainwave (Oct 7, 2014)

Don't play Lightning Returns, that's all I want to leave here.


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## olaf (Oct 7, 2014)

Anita was saying that men are retarded sex obsessed man children and to prove her wrong they started acting like retarded sex obsessed man children

brilliant



I'm not even saying she is right (I have no idea about her views besides the general 'women are too sexualized in games') but did those people have a meeting where they decided what response would make her look the best?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 7, 2014)

neko-sennin said:


> So, if the person making the offending YT vid were male, he would totally get bombed with graphic, stalker-fic rape and torture threats, right?
> 
> ...Oh. So I guess the point still stands, regardless of whether a vid lines up with popular opinion or not, the response will always be disproportionate as long the speaker is female.
> 
> ...



Someone has never heard of Jack Thompson I see.



olaf said:


> Anita was saying that men are retarded sex obsessed man children and to prove her wrong they started acting like retarded sex obsessed man children
> 
> brilliant
> 
> ...



That's stupid though. Just think about it, she was calling something that comes from half the population that. There are bound to be those so stupid to fall for that bait, but just as well the internet is a place of presumed anonymity. So how many actually engaged in such behavior, no one can say at all. Yet it's highly doubtful it's something that accounts for or represents the majority of gamers considering the sheer size of the gamerbase and the demographics of it as well. At most you have a few thousand at best of millions?

Regardless of her harassment, the narrative she is laying out is still dishonest and inaccurate, and ironically enough based on sexist notions as it pertains to male gamers. Being offended, being harassed, doesn't make her right.


----------



## neko-sennin (Oct 7, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Someone has never heard of Jack Thompson I see.




The disbarred anti-video-game nutter? What about him?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 7, 2014)

He received threats just the same as Sarkeesian did. It didn't make him right, now did it?


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## olaf (Oct 7, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> That's stupid though. Just think about it, she was calling something that comes from half the population that. There are bound to be those so stupid to fall for that bait, but just as well the internet is a place of presumed anonymity. So how many actually engaged in such behavior, no one can say at all. Yet it's highly doubtful it's something that accounts for or represents the majority of gamers considering the sheer size of the gamerbase and the demographics of it as well. At most you have a few thousand at best of millions?


but this isn't about the real numbers, it's about perception.

how should the non-gamers know that the vocal part isn't conveying the thoughs of the whole group? especialy that they are quite vocal and crude.

oh and I've seen couple pieces that tried to say that most gamers aren't pro-harassment, but they were written like "anita is wrong wrong wrong (arguments) oh and people shouldn't haras other people" or "anita is wrong (arguments) and IF the threats were real then it's not nice, but we really don't know anything sure about that". 

if you're outsider she seems like a victim and even those gamers that were "standing up" for her seem like kinda jerks.


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## sadated_peon (Oct 7, 2014)

neko-sennin said:


> So, if the person making the offending YT vid were male, he would totally get bombed with graphic, stalker-fic rape and torture threats, right?
> 
> ...Oh. So I guess the point still stands, regardless of whether a vid lines up with popular opinion or not, the response will always be disproportionate as long the speaker is female.


If a man goes into a forum focused on feminism do you believe he will get more or less criticism for his "offending YT vid" than a women with the same points?

He would get more reaction correct? I guess that would prove that feminism is a hot bed for sexism, or do you hold a double standard?



neko-sennin said:


> My wi-fi streaming sucks, so I never saw the video, I was merely commenting on all of the vitriol that is exclusively directed at women for presenting an unpopular opinion, and their own childish inability to actually address the substance of any of her arguments, and completely muddy the issue with their own sexual frustration.


didn't see it but assumed it was wrong. 
Yep that is about as much as I expected. 



neko-sennin said:


> By the same token, if it was a man who used personal relationships with game journalists for their own gain, would he come home and open his comments to find the latest installment of Rape Fic Theater Presents?



I am sure he would receive death threats and other threats of violence. I am also sure that there would be a lot of rape comments, things like "... shove X XXX up your ass..."

I remember once being told I was going to get fucked with the wrong end of a rake because I felt that FF8 was a shit game. 

*The only people who take these hyperbole threats seriously are those who want to focus on them instead of actual criticism of their position.*


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## Seto Kaiba (Oct 7, 2014)

olaf said:


> but this isn't about the real numbers, it's about perception.
> 
> how should the non-gamers know that the vocal part isn't conveying the thoughs of the whole group? especialy that they are quite vocal and crude.



Common sense? It's not like gaming is a niche market here. Most people play video games, and I would imagine most people have some vague idea at the massive number of gamers that exist today. This isn't the 1980s. 

Even moreso, some basic knowledge on the internet and the nature of anonymity it brings, with some awareness of how anyone can make any number of vile messages under such a presumed veil. 



> oh and I've seen couple pieces that tried to say that most gamers aren't pro-harassment, but they were written like "anita is wrong wrong wrong (arguments) oh and people shouldn't haras other people" or "anita is wrong (arguments) and IF the threats were real then it's not nice, but we really don't know anything sure about that".



OK?



> if you're outsider she seems like a victim and even those gamers that were "standing up" for her seem like kinda jerks.



Only to those that just woke up yesterday to what the internet is. Only to those lazy-minded individuals that think it's being a "jerk" to challenge the validity of her claims. She plays up her victim card exactly for those gullible-minded people. Anyone else knows that public figures get harassed all the time on the web. It doesn't change the arguments made from detractors in general though on what she is presenting. Anyone with a modicum of sense can comprehend that.


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## Mael (Oct 7, 2014)

Fun story: Anita also claimed she received so many threats that she had to notify the police department.

The police actually have no record of her calls/complaints.


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## Seto Kaiba (Oct 7, 2014)

This is the problem most people already have a negative image of feminism as it is. Gaming on the other hand is pretty much an accepted and common part of contemporary American culture in contrast. People know that there are assholes on the internet, and people are more than aware that anonymity enables these assholes even moreso, it's nothing new. 

So I reckon that if the common person hears that feminists are having a back-and-forth with the gaming industry, the negative perception is ultimately going to fall on the feminists; because even moreso than gamers and the internet, that movement has a history particularly since the 90s, of being caustic and hostile. Even to the point most women refuse to identify as such.


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## Easley (Oct 7, 2014)

The harassment against Anita was vicious - threatening her with rape and death should outrage any normal person, but let's not pretend that nasty internet trolls represent the majority of gamers - or even men. Those idiots would insult their own mothers. 

I hate to be cynical...but while I sympathize with Anita over the personal attacks, she isn't stupid. In fact, she seems rather devious to me. I think she deliberately chose video games as her Kickstarter project for one simple reason: she anticipated this reaction. Most of the money pledged came after the abuse against her started...and Anita exploited it with ease. She never failed to publicize what was being said about her. This extra attention and sympathy is how she raised over $158,000. Did "Tropes vs Women" deserve that much funding? No. And Feminist Frequency also got some nice publicity. Not the worst outcome for her.

Does sexism exist in gaming culture? Of course it does, but genuine misogyny is rare. I used to play several online games and made no secret of my gender. Most guys were very welcoming and actually thought it was cool that a girl joined their team. I was only 19 at the time (ahem, 7 years ago) so I don't know if things are better or worse now. Some sexist jokes were told at my expense but it seemed like harmless banter as far as I could tell. They trash-talked each other too. Any assholes that showed up soon got banned. 

btw, is "gamer" a dirty word now?


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## Mael (Oct 7, 2014)

I remember when gamer was synonymous with nerd.

Those were the days.


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## Subarashii (Oct 7, 2014)

Mael said:


> I remember when gamer was synonymous with nerd.
> 
> Those were the days.



Weren't they though?  When did all this hate and slandering (from both sides) become so common?

Why can't we be friends


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## neko-sennin (Oct 7, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> He received threats just the same as Sarkeesian did. It didn't make him right, now did it?




Never said Sarkeesian was right. I said the people making death/rape threats were wrong, no matter. So we're still waiting for your point...


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## Seto Kaiba (Oct 7, 2014)

neko-sennin said:


> Never said Sarkeesian was right. I said the people making death/rape threats were wrong, no matter. So we're still waiting for your point...



I've kind of repeated a few times if you bothered keeping up.



> btw, is "gamer" a dirty word now?



No. SJWs and feminists think they can turn it into one though, because they are delusional.


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## Tranquil Fury (Oct 7, 2014)

Girls/women don't play games obviously!


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## Hand Banana (Oct 7, 2014)

Bitches need to be worrying about how my sandwich is made.


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## Tranquil Fury (Oct 7, 2014)

They can do that while kicking your ass in your favorite videogame.


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## Seto Kaiba (Oct 7, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Girls/women don't play games obviously!



What is this in response to?


----------



## LesExit (Oct 7, 2014)

Chainwave said:


> Don't play Lightning Returns, that's all I want to leave here.


....I couldn't even finish final fantasy 13 
The customization looked cool for lightning returns...but that looks to be about it :0


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## Chelydra (Oct 7, 2014)

Since we are on the topic of people bitching over tropes and portrayal of women I will just leave this here... its from Lollipop chainsaw.


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## blueblip (Oct 8, 2014)

Seriously? This whole GamerGate thing is a bunch of weeaboos taking their hobby way to seriously.

The ENTIRE premise of this much-ado-about-nothing is based off a lie - that the woman developer slept with a journalist to get a good review of her game (FYI, she didn't).

The whole thing begins and ends there. When the entire premise of your bullshit is bullshit itself, you ought to shut up and leave quietly. Unless someone can provide data that conclusively proves she slept with a journalist to get a good review, I fail to see what the damn controversy is in the first place! What the hell are the neckbeards screaming about? And even if she DID sleep with a journalist, if it didn't lead to a review, who gives a flying fuck?

Oh wait. The same people who rant about "SJWs" in an effort to detract from the fact that they are harping on a non-existent point and are desperate to deflect people's attention from the fact that they don't have a point.

Also, if your default response is to threaten someone with threats of rape and murder just because you disagree with their opinion, I'm sorry to say you don't get to be taken seriously, and you really ought to grow up a little before trying to talk with adults.

Seriously, 'SJWs'?? Every time I see that, I laugh at how ludicrous the person using it sounds.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 8, 2014)

You jump into this entirely misinformed. One, she already admitted to infidelity with those in the gaming journalism business, a few of which DID provide favorable reviews to her game at the time. 

You really do not find a professional breach of ethics here? When one tasked to review games reliably for a consumer is having such a close personal relationship with a game developer is not a problem? 

Not to mention, repeated incident of using those means to stifle female indie game devs, through the use of the sexism mantra while securing money for herself.

2nd. No the whole thing DOES NOT begin and end there. It is already well established that beyond that there are very deep personal connections between particular indie devs and groups, online activists, and game "journalists", with money circulating between these three entities. blueblip you're not a stupid person, so please do your research on this. It's not a coincidence that many notable gaming sites in the controversy almost simultaneously released "GAMERS ARE DEAD" articles at around the same time in response to the controversy. It's not a coincidence that around the same time, there was an almost uniform narrative at presenting the gamerbase as a whole as misogynistic, white, male nerds. Something which ironically enough is stark bigotry which they claim to combat. 

This matter is much the same issue as Geoff Keighley even without the sex, in that there is a clear compromise of professional interests here. A lot of journalists and devs have created circles among themselves which compromise the integrity of the fields they claim to be part of. A lot of these so-called journalists receive money and compensation for giving favorable reviews to games. 

Your entire diatribe in itself is one of ignorance. This is 2014, trying to characterize people that play games as this niche market is base ignorance. It's a multibillion dollar industry made of all kinds of people from all kinds of backgrounds; You are doing the exact same thing these so-called "social justice warriors" do and engaging in your own bigotry by making assumptions about a group that literally compromises the hundreds of millions, if not more. "Neckbeard" that's an original pejorative, right? Come on. You're smarter than that.

It's also relevant to note, these people are having extremists that fall behind the likes of Zoe Quinn and Sarkeesian, claiming to speak for all women or minorities involved in the matter. A rant about SJWs isn't detracting from anything, because like with everything so far, they come into an industry and think they can dictate the narrative on a self-serving, hypocritical and ironically, bigoted basis and that anyone that disagrees needs to immediately done away with. How you ignore the constant barrage of harassment, doxxing, and attempts to ruin the personal lives of dissenters from the so-called 'social justice' crowd is amazing. Even worse is that it's not even just troupes of anonymous individuals that are caught doing this, it's named figures in that ideology. 

Worse yet, invoking some sort of modern day Godwin's Law by comparing people against individuals like Sarkeesian or Quinn as being equivalent to ISIS? Give me a break.

How isolated are you from the net that you've never come across these individuals? They take SJW as a badge of honor and they are exactly what is hurting liberalism over here. Ultimately they will fail because of their unstable and bigoted nature, the dominoes have already begun to fall. That does not however change the attempts they have made on this matter. Unlike with gamers they have established for themselves a clear political narrative and platform which is characterized heavily by cherry-picking, intellectual dishonesty, and selective bigotry.


----------



## neko-sennin (Oct 8, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> He received threats just the same as Sarkeesian did. It didn't make him right, now did it?




Still not sure where you're going with this...

You had to find a man who went out of his way to make enemies actually doing things in the real world-- lawsuits, hearings, political campaigning-- to find the kind of threats made against a woman for making one unpopular video.

Let that sink in for a moment.

She didn't have to make any points in her vid. Every manchild on the internet barged right in and made her point for her.



sadated_peon said:


> He would get more reaction correct? I guess that would prove that *feminism* is a hot bed for sexism, or do you hold a double standard?




ENGLISH 101: The word you're looking for is "misandry" -- the  of "misogyny" 

"Feminism" is, at its core, the simple belief that women are people, too. 

Are there factions of misandry within the feminist movement? Yes. Have many men stopped for a moment, looked around and wondered just what kind of life experience a person must've grown up with to hold their half the human race in contempt? I wonder...

But I'm sure conflating feminism and misogyny at every turn will solve the problem. 



sadated_peon said:


> didn't see it but assumed it was wrong.
> Yep that is about as much as I expected.






Forget about _points_, I'll make this as _blunt_ as the English language is capable of:

I never commented on her video. I commented on the comments on her video.

It wouldn't matter if she strenuously asserted the moon was made of green cheese, or Mohammed flew to heaven riding on Twilight Sparkle, rape threats still do not address anything about the substance of even the most absurd opinions. 

Though I must admit, you've made me curious. I think I just might look up this video, just to see what she could possibly say to strike such a nerve with you boys... 



sadated_peon said:


> I remember once being told I was going to get fucked with the wrong end of a rake because I felt that FF8 was a shit game.




I don't doubt it. And I'm sure it also turned up on your answering machine, popped out at you on your way from work, and, if he was too chickenshit to accost you in person, threatened to release all your personal information online so that others could do it for him...

Didn't think so. 



sadated_peon said:


> *The only people who take these hyperbole threats seriously are those who want to focus on them instead of actual criticism of their position.*




Though I wish no such thing on, you would no longer be able to read your own messages with the same smug self-assurance if you always walked to your car with your keys clenched between your fingers, had to have store staff detain and stonewall random men to keep them from following you home in your own neighborhood, and even on the best of days, have to keep your headphones cranked to walk down the street in peace in the face of every self-entitled man who never stopped for a moment to think that maybe you have something more important to do with your life today than listen to lame pick-up lines from people who persistantly give you the creeps.

The lens of experience colors life, and seldom more intensely than survival instincts. Until you've lived your life as someone else's _prey_, you will not see those threats with the same eyes, nor would you be so complacent about figuring out which ones you might need to take seriously.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 8, 2014)

neko-sennin said:


> Still not sure where you're going with this...
> 
> You had to find a man who went out of his way to make enemies actually doing things in the real world-- lawsuits, hearings, political campaigning-- to find the kind of threats made against a woman for making one unpopular video.



Ignorance. She has a long history of this, it was not just one video. Come on, if you are going to jump on this at least know what you're talking about.



> Let that sink in for a moment.
> 
> She didn't have to make any points in her vid. Every manchild on the internet barged right in and made her point for her.



That's stupid.

That's a stupid as holding prejudices toward "x" race and then having some people do something beholden to those prejudices and saying SEE I TOLD YOU THEY WERE LIKE THAT.

The harassers do not in any way come close to representing males, or male gamers, or gamers in general. Only a lazy-minded fool would think otherwise. She simply uses it as does her audience, to fuel what were already held prejudices in regard to the group. Every public figure has faced such harassment when they generate an online presence. That is simply a consequence of the anonymous nature of the internet. It emboldens such people where they otherwise would not be so.



> ENGLISH 101: The word you're looking for is "misandry" -- the distaff counterpart of "misogyny"
> 
> "Feminism" is, at its core, the simple belief that women are people, too.



No, it's become a movement of hate now. Whatever it was in the past is irrelevant to its current incarnation.


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## neko-sennin (Oct 8, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> No, it's become a movement of hate now. Whatever it was in the past is irrelevant to its current incarnation.




Riddle me this: what do you call everyone who supports equality for women?


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## Seto Kaiba (Oct 8, 2014)

egalitarian


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## neko-sennin (Oct 8, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> egalitarian




Admittedly, a better answer than anything else you've replied with. 

Still, for all these posts, you still haven't given us your thoughts on _why_ so many women would develop such a negative impression of men, nor on why you keep dragging the source video out as if it should excuse all the threats it received.

Though I'm beginning to believe the problem may be that you're trying to take this thread north, while my point was aimed west, so the two never had any real chance at intersecting in the first place.

Of course, perhaps it's the simple fact that even the most inane of opinions is answered with threats of rape and violence just might have something to do with how many of these gals got to where they are on the opinion spectrum, and that thousands of men acting out the same stereotype they claim to be stereotyped with probably isn't going to change their minds.


----------



## Freechoice (Oct 8, 2014)

Seto laying down the motherfucking truth.


----------



## blueblip (Oct 8, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> You jump into this entirely misinformed. One, she already admitted to infidelity with those in the gaming journalism business, a few of which DID provide favorable reviews to her game at the time.


As far as I've read so far, Gamergate is about her sleeping with one particular journo who was accused off giving her game a favourable review, when in fact he didn't. So I'm curious to know which other journalists she slept with to gain favourable reviews. At the very least, I would like to know the publications. No one she has slept with has review her game, as far as I can see.

That aside...



> You really do not find a professional breach of ethics here? When one tasked to review games reliably for a consumer is having such a close personal relationship with a game developer is not a problem?


Short answer: yes, but only IF you can prove that her sleeping with said journos is what directly led to favourable reviews. Without said proof, you might as well claim that gremlins hacked into all the review sites and wrote up the good reviews.

Long answer: One, causation is not correlation. You know that better than anybody. She slept with one/some/many journalists, which may or may not have influenced reviews of her game. That's an assumption and nothing more than that. So what if she slept with game reviewers? And how on earth can you prove sleeping with them is what led to favourable reviews? From what I can see, the gaming journalism industry rarely gives 'bad' reviews to anything. Getting a 6/10 these days is a low score, and there are plenty of games that get scores that I personally feel they don't deserve. So why is this particular developer being singled out for an unusual score for a game? Why paint her and the journos as unethical with no proof whatsoever? Dragon Age 2, an AAA title from one of the most respected developers out there, Bioware, got around 8/10 and it's equivalent from all quarters despite the fact that it was clearly unfinished. I didn't hear people claim the Bioware team slept with reviewers for that kind of score. Did you? Even today, consumers rate DA2 much lower than what the 'pros' did. But did EA or Bioware receive death or rape threats? Did any members of the DA2 dev team get doxxed or threatening phone calls?

Similarly, did gamers send rape threats to Gamespot, Eidos, or IO Interactive over the Kane and Lynch debacle? Why not? In that instance, there was a CLEAR indication of collusion between publication and corporation - a person lost his job because he gave a bad review. Why didn't Gamergate happen then, when it was warranted and required, and why is happening now over a much more trivial matter? THAT, Seto me lad, is the problem here. The target this time is a woman, and as much as I know you wouldn't like me saying this, it is what it is. And that's what it's made out to be - a woman was bashed because she happened to sleep with someone, and that's somehow indicative of unethical behaviour.



> Not to mention, repeated incident of using those means to stifle female indie game devs, through the use of the sexism mantra while securing money for herself.


Don't get me wrong - I'm on board with you on HER behaviour post-blow up. But My complaint isn't about her behaviour and how she's trying to milk the hullabaloo for whatever it's worth; my complaint is about the inanity of people wanting to burn her at the stake just for having sex for good reviews without a single shred of evidence linking the two together. Her post-blow up behaviour has nothing to do with why Gamergate got started in the first place, and dragging it into the conversation is nothing more than a distraction.

Let me put it this way: the issue of Gamergate is that gaming journalism is completely devoid of honest reviews and opinions. Okay, that's a valid complaint as there have been plenty of examples in the past to justify that. But that's NOT what gamers are harping on about. They're harping about ONE developer who slept with some journos. There is no broader talk about the actual problem Gamergate is supposed to be about. What on earth does her trying to milk the controversy have to do with publisher-publication collusion?? Nothing at all!



> 2nd. No the whole thing DOES NOT begin and end there. It is already well established that beyond that there are very deep personal connections between particular indie devs and groups, online activists, and game "journalists", with money circulating between these three entities. blueblip you're not a stupid person, so please do your research on this. It's not a coincidence that many notable gaming sites in the controversy almost simultaneously released "GAMERS ARE DEAD" articles at around the same time in response to the controversy. It's not a coincidence that around the same time, there was an almost uniform narrative at presenting the gamerbase as a whole as misogynistic, white, male nerds. Something which ironically enough is stark bigotry which they claim to combat.


Agreed. But again, that's not what my complaint is here. My complaint here is that what should be discussed, is not being discussed. Keep in mind that the more people try and focus on Zoe Quinn, who hasn't done anything to warrant the kind of behaviour aimed at her (speculation doesn't count), the easier it is for the journalists to deflect the issue away from the real problem. In essence, continually pushing Zoe Quinn into the picture for no good reason is the best way for the reviewers to deflect from their prior behaviour that actually DOES warrant investigation.



> This matter is much the same issue as Geoff Keighley even without the sex, in that there is a clear compromise of professional interests here. A lot of journalists and devs have created circles among themselves which compromise the integrity of the fields they claim to be part of. A lot of these so-called journalists receive money and compensation for giving favorable reviews to games.


THIS is what should be the focus of the discussion, not who slept with how many people or whatever.



> Your entire diatribe in itself is one of ignorance. This is 2014, trying to characterize people that play games as this niche market is base ignorance. It's a multibillion dollar industry made of all kinds of people from all kinds of backgrounds; You are doing the exact same thing these so-called "social justice warriors" do and engaging in your own bigotry by making assumptions about a group that literally compromises the hundreds of millions, if not more. "Neckbeard" that's an original pejorative, right? Come on. You're smarter than that.


Now I feel bad, since I do know better . I just thought since everyone does use 'em, I should be able to 

Though I was trying to make a point about calling people neckbeards the same way anyone standing up for Quinn is called an SJW



> It's also relevant to note, these people are having extremists that fall behind the likes of Zoe Quinn and Sarkeesian, claiming to speak for all women or minorities involved in the matter. A rant about SJWs isn't detracting from anything, because like with everything so far, they come into an industry and think they can dictate the narrative on a self-serving, hypocritical and ironically, bigoted basis and that anyone that disagrees needs to immediately done away with. How you ignore the constant barrage of harassment, doxxing, and attempts to ruin the personal lives of dissenters from the so-called 'social justice' crowd is amazing. Even worse is that it's not even just troupes of anonymous individuals that are caught doing this, it's named figures in that ideology.


I ignore them because they aren't worth my time, much the same way I ignore the rantings and ravings of many any extremist view point. And if you'll allow me a little cheekiness and use your words against you: Seto, you're smart enough to know they aren't worth the time.

I...know the problems with current feminism. Believe me, in a place like India where women's rights is a HUGE issue, it's a problem that has come front and center more so than in places like the US. Women who desperately need to know their rights never do, and the ones who do know them end up abusing them. But we both know they are a loud sub-sect of the larger group, and the only reason they are heard is because they scream loud enough to be heard. Their behaviour is completely inexcusable, but they're able to get away with it because people like you bother to give them time off day! Why? They're nothing more than a bunch of glory hogs who are trying to make themselves feel good by 'championing' a cause they know nothing about and lack the intelligence to comprehend in the first place. They're trolls, so don't feed them want they want - attention.



> Worse yet, invoking some sort of modern day Godwin's Law by comparing people against individuals like Sarkeesian or Quinn as being equivalent to ISIS? Give me a break.




See why I ignore them?



> How isolated are you from the net that you've never come across these individuals? They take SJW as a badge of honor and they are exactly what is hurting liberalism over here. Ultimately they will fail because of their unstable and bigoted nature, the dominoes have already begun to fall. That does not however change the attempts they have made on this matter. Unlike with gamers they have established for themselves a clear political narrative and platform which is characterized heavily by cherry-picking, intellectual dishonesty, and selective bigotry.


And even then, they will fail. I think you overestimate how much influence they hold. None of these lunatics are sitting on the boards of powerful corporations. None of these lunatics become elected officials or hold real political power. None of these women are involved in groundbreaking R&D. But there are women who are involved in all off the above and are truly inspirational. You look at the loonies with no substance and see a problem; I look at the ones with stuff and ignore the ones who don't.

Let them cherry-pick, let them be intellectually dishonest. Let them do whatever the hell they want. At the end of the day, you and I both know they don't really care about women's rights, they only care about being famous. I can't repeat this enough: the more time you focus on them and tell them they're the problem, the louder they will scream.


----------



## MartyMcFly1 (Oct 8, 2014)

neko-sennin said:


> Admittedly, a better answer than anything else you've replied with.
> 
> Still, for all these posts, you still haven't given us your thoughts on _why_ so many women would develop such a negative impression of men



So, misandry is okay as long as it's justified? As long as you personally agree with the reason why these women have a negative impression of men then their vitriol and bigotry is okay?

Is racism acceptable as well so long as every racist can prove that at one time or other they were robbed by a black person?

:amazed


----------



## sadated_peon (Oct 8, 2014)

neko-sennin said:


> ENGLISH 101: The word you're looking for is "misandry" -- the  of "misogyny"
> 
> "Feminism" is, at its core, the simple belief that women are people, too.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think English 101 is where we need to start. 

You make the statement that a woman posting an YT video (critical of gaming) will be attacked more by the "Gaming" community than a man. 
Your "point" as to the sexist nature of the gaming community. 

I pointed out that a man posting a YT video (critical of feminism) will be attacked more by the "Feminist" community than a woman. 

So no, the word I am looking for is not "misandry", its Feminism, as that is the community where the response happened, like gaming is the community where the the response to Anita happened. 

That you seem to understand that "Are there factions of misandry within the feminist movement? Yes. " and "conflating feminism and misogyny"

Yet can't grasp that there are misogynist gamers, but you shouldn't conflate gamers and misogyny, shows your double standard, and what I was pointing out in my last post!



neko-sennin said:


> Forget about _points_, I'll make this as _blunt_ as the English language is capable of:
> 
> I never commented on her video. I commented on the comments on her video.
> 
> ...



This was my mistake I thought you referring to the video posted by Mael. 



neko-sennin said:


> I don't doubt it. And I'm sure it also turned up on your answering machine, popped out at you on your way from work, and, if he was too chickenshit to accost you in person, threatened to release all your personal information online so that others could do it for him...
> 
> Didn't think so.


I am sure that if I was more of a public figure then the amount of attacks and the prevalence of those attacks would increase to match my public presence. 

I am sure that level of "celebrity" corresponds to the level of response. Not gender. 



neko-sennin said:


> Though I wish no such thing on, you would no longer be able to read your own messages with the same smug self-assurance if you always walked to your car with your keys clenched between your fingers, had to have store staff detain and stonewall random men to keep them from following you home in your own neighborhood, and even on the best of days, have to keep your headphones cranked to walk down the street in peace in the face of every self-entitled man who never stopped for a moment to think that maybe you have something more important to do with your life today than listen to lame pick-up lines from people who persistantly give you the creeps.
> 
> The lens of experience colors life, and seldom more intensely than survival instincts. Until you've lived your life as someone else's _prey_, you will not see those threats with the same eyes, nor would you be so complacent about figuring out which ones you might need to take seriously.



which has fucking nothing to do with her position on games industry. This is your tangent soap box for perceived social injustice. 

I live in Detroit I fear of looking over your shoulder while going to your car. Because there are bad people in the world. But this doesn't mean that because of this you can generalize to all people. 

A minority of people are criminals, a minority of people are trolls, living your life as this minority is the majority is a poor excuse for existence, and a poor excuse for an argument against a community.


----------



## Mael (Oct 8, 2014)

> I pointed out that a man posting a YT video (critical of feminism) will be attacked more by the "Feminist" community than a woman.



You should see what modern online feminists think of Christina Hoff Sommers or Katherine K. Young.  You'd think they were like Quisling or Benedict Arnold.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 8, 2014)

neko-sennin said:


> Admittedly, a better answer than anything else you've replied with.
> 
> Still, for all these posts, you still haven't given us your thoughts on _why_ so many women would develop such a negative impression of men, nor on why you keep dragging the source video out as if it should excuse all the threats it received.



1. That is not a question that's my responsibility to answer. I mean, your question is idiotic on its face. There are a number of guys who resent women on a similar basis, of being wronged by them, but people would call those misogynists for doing so. If a person is too stupid to realize that such actions reflect on those specific individuals, as opposed to an entire group whose distinction in no way indicates any particular or inherent character traits, then that is their shortcoming.

2. No I'm not. You are doing ironically enough as another thread covers, what Affleck does it trying to conflate one position of criticism with another separate one entirely.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 8, 2014)

@blueblip: The fact that she slept with these individuals involved in something as gaming reviews and that again, some have reviewed her games presents a conflict of interest. Even if they didn't review the games, they are both in particular professions where such intimate relations present a clear breach of professional ethics. Particularly because regardless they DO have a professional relationship on top of that.  It's not simply that she slept with these guys, hell it's not even her infidelity. It's how it relates to professional ethics.

Could you imagine for example if we found out a particular journalist in the actual news media was bedding the people they were supposed to be reporting on? There would be a lot of issues with that, and for good reason.

It's not just her, there is a clear issue here that goes beyond her and has been a long-standing one at that, on gaming "journalism", and a conflict of interest as it pertains to their personal relationships with particular developers, and compensations for favorable reviews by them and other gaming development entities. Again, like one Geoff Keighley, a supposed professional reviewer and game journalist that was clearly paid big bucks by a company he is professionally tasked to be a watchdog of.

This has been an issue for years, it only boiled over because primarily the involvement of the social justice crowd, and the hard evidence presented on matters NOT LIMITED TO ZOE QUINN that have revealed a massive conflict of interest here. Not to mention, that again, oddly the rhetoric for many of these purported gaming journalism websites adopt the same rhetoric in response to the matter at hand as they always have. 

On the issue as a whole, gamers taking notice of all this for years, you've had numerous notable individuals give their take AT LENGTH on the issue at large. It is just patent dishonesty to pretend otherwise. This very article is related to a matter that extends beyond her. Quinn was merely symptomatic of a larger issue, gamers were suspecting for years.

Also the harassment has gone both ways, these people backing Sarkeesian and Quinn-types have even doxxed kids, and tried to justify it even worse. Like I said even named people have been implicated in attempts to doxx and hack sites and people's profiles that expressed a dissenting viewpoint from their own.

Don't know about India but they are not a minority here anymore as it pertains to feminism. There was a huge change in it some years ago to the point where most women don't even associate with the term. It's become not only online, but in academics as well, an insular movement that feeds into its own increasing radicalism. 

Massive numbers in contemporary western society, and even large parts of the east identify as a "gamer" in contrast compared to a group that has tasked themselves as trying to demonize the title.


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## Mael (Oct 8, 2014)

>People complaining of lobbyists using sex and money to get their agenda in Congress
>Same people defending Zoe Quinn because she's being harassed for doing the same thing, specifically the sex part

I gotta get me some top kek here.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 8, 2014)

Mael said:


> >People complaining of lobbyists using sex and money to get their agenda in Congress
> >Same people defending Zoe Quinn because she's being harassed for doing the same thing, specifically the sex part
> 
> I gotta get me some top kek here.



US Legislation and video game journalism are a liiiiiiiiiiittle bit different in terms of "importance to society as we know it"  Not saying anyone should compromise their ethics for sex, but on the scale of "life altering" and "I'm not buying that", I think legislation wins that battle.


----------



## Mael (Oct 8, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> US Legislation and video game journalism are a liiiiiiiiiiittle bit different in terms of "importance to society as we know it"  Not saying anyone should compromise their ethics for sex, but on the scale of "life altering" and "I'm not buying that", I think legislation wins that battle.



Obviously the implications are different, but the activity is all the same.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 8, 2014)

Mael said:


> Obviously the implications are different, but the activity is all the same.



What if she had sex with a congressman to pass legislation about videogame journalism 

Worlds colliding, people


----------



## Mael (Oct 8, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> What if she had sex with a congressman to pass legislation about videogame journalism
> 
> Worlds colliding, people



If politicians really became SJWs, God help us all...


----------



## neko-sennin (Oct 9, 2014)

sadated_peon said:


> This was my mistake I thought you referring to the video posted by Mael.




I believe this is roughly where one thread diverged into two parallel universes, one that continued harping on Sarkeesian, and one that simply pointed out that the lion's share of the commenters on her video were doing nothing to improve their own reputation with all these women they blame for their own problems. Basically:

Woman With Opinion > Summon Creeps

The opinion itself is irrelevant. As long as the majority response is to act out the very stereotypes they themselves balk at, we're not going to hear the last of any brand of feminism in our lifetimes.

You had me confused for a while, because I really don't think you meant come off sounding like you were defending stalkers and creeps, or blaming victims for even being on the internet at all, and I still don't think that's what you were trying to say, was it?

We basically both just continued marching north and west, or whatever metaphorical directions you wish it to be. 




MartyMcFly1 said:


> Is racism acceptable as well so long as every racist can prove that at one time or other they were robbed by a black person?




So, Missing White Girl Syndrome, then? And if Sarkeesian were black, would you be bitching about the Race Card instead?

Sexist attitudes span all cultures and ethnicities, so your comparison just brings everything full circle again, begging the question of what one half the human race could possibly do to the other half to leave such a sour taste in their mouth.

The hypothetical woman being cyber-stalked, it doesn't matter to me if she's black, white, or on loan from Alpha Centauri, stalking her is still equally wrong.

Like most things about Who Slept With Who, all I hear is He-Said/She-Said hearsay, and, much like the question of where all these women are getting such a negative impression of men, the question I'm left with in her case is more about where women got the idea that men exchange sex for favors in the first place. 

As for the rest of my posts, I was never talking about Sarkeesian specifically, I was talking about all the violence and vitriol an average woman encounters online, and why the female experience would paint those same words in very different colors. As I have pointed out for at least the 6th time in the last 24 hours, my point was never about her video, but about the response to it.

I have no doubt she knew the response she was looking for, though I suspect even she underestimated the magnitude of it, getting a little more than she bargained for, but it's still disappointing that a legion of men went out of their way to reinforce negative stereotypes about themselves so predictably.

Sadly, internet "Nice Guys" often prove themselves little different from that other crew in Islamic society who have a revolving picket sign that says "Religion of Peace" on one side and "Kill All Who Insult the Prophet!" on the other, in that they want to paint themselves as victims even while making threats, and just end up painting themselves into a corner, instead.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 9, 2014)

You didn't answer his question at all.


----------



## Hand Banana (Oct 9, 2014)

That was a bigger deflection than what Flow does.


----------



## MartyMcFly1 (Oct 9, 2014)

neko-sennin said:


> So, Missing White Girl Syndrome, then? And if Sarkeesian were black, would you be bitching about the Race Card instead?
> 
> Sexist attitudes span all cultures and ethnicities, so your comparison just brings everything full circle again, begging the question of what one half the human race could possibly do to the other half to leave such a sour taste in their mouth.



*Spoiler*: __ 







Sarkesian being a white woman just shows how unfounded the idea that she's "so unsafe and discriminated against" that she likes to promote. When in fact, she is a part of the safest, most protected demographic of people possibly to ever exist in all of history. 

Every public figure gets hate/threats. The idea that Sarkeesian needs protection every time someone says something mean to her lends credence to the idea that women need special protection to deal with reality.

You really are the worst type of guy. You don't think it's obvious that these pathetic opinions of yours are just a petition for vagina? You're the type of guy who says shit like, "I apologize for all men," making yourself look bad and simultaneously drying up every vagina within a 5-mile radius. I don't give a darn why some shrew hates men, it in no way justifies it.



neko-sennin said:


> The hypothetical woman being cyber-stalked, it doesn't matter to me if she's black, white, or on loan from Alpha Centauri, stalking her is still equally wrong.



She isn't actually being cyberstalked. She's not getting any more or less vitriol than any other public figure, she's just playing the victim role and extracting resources from white knights like yourself with nothing better to do.



neko-sennin said:


> Like most things about Who Slept With Who, all I hear is He-Said/She-Said hearsay, and, much like the question of where all these women are getting such a negative impression of men, the question I'm left with in her case is more about where women got the idea that men exchange sex for favors in the first place.



Like I said before, I don't give a darn why these shrews hate men, a bad experience in no way justifies being a bigot and the discriminatory anti-male attitude these women have. If you really believe that then it's pathetic. It also isn't my job to educate you on the details of gamergate. It's far more than a he-said she-said, but keep deluding yourself if it makes it easier for you to back these morally bankrupt causes.

Dude, you are such a eunuch. Look at how much money men spend at strip clubs, or on escorts or on women in general. Male desire in and of itself isn't something offensive to apologize for. Just because you willfully castrate yourself it doesn't mean other men should.



neko-sennin said:


> As for the rest of my posts, I was never talking about Sarkeesian specifically, I was talking about all the violence and vitriol an average woman encounters online, and why the female experience would paint those same words in very different colors. As I have pointed out for at least the 6th time in the last 24 hours, my point was never about her video, but about the response to it.



Sarkeesian and other women online do not receive any more or less vitriol than anyone else online. Trolls are certainly annoying, but the idea that women need this shield of protection against them is absurd and actually lends credence to the idea that women are less capable and less able to deal with the stresses of life. Either they are adults or they aren't. Look at the twitter timeline of any professional athlete and they are constantly being insulted, mocked and receiving death threats.

Sarkeesian only received a small amount of hate and even that was too much for her, it's pathetic.



neko-sennin said:


> *Sadly, internet "Nice Guys" often prove themselves little different from that other crew in Islamic society who have a revolving picket sign that says "Religion of Peace" on one side and "Kill All Who Insult the Prophet!" on the other, in that they want to paint themselves as victims even while making threats, and just end up painting themselves into a corner, instead.*



What the fuck are you even talking about anymore? Dude, stay off Tumblr.


----------



## Mael (Oct 9, 2014)

Damn...gotta spread rep.


----------



## sadated_peon (Oct 9, 2014)

neko-sennin said:


> I believe this is roughly where one thread diverged into two parallel universes, one that continued harping on Sarkeesian, and one that simply pointed out that the lion's share of the commenters on her video were doing nothing to improve their own reputation with all these women they blame for their own problems. Basically:
> 
> Woman With Opinion > Summon Creeps
> 
> The opinion itself is irrelevant. As long as the majority response is to act out the very stereotypes they themselves balk at, we're not going to hear the last of any brand of feminism in our lifetimes.


The lion's share of the comments were not harassment. The majority of comments were not threats. The majority of comments were simply people disagreeing. 

Nor does the opinion itself become irrelevant based on the response. 


neko-sennin said:


> You had me confused for a while, because I really don't think you meant come off sounding like you were defending stalkers and creeps, or blaming victims for even being on the internet at all, and I still don't think that's what you were trying to say, was it?
> 
> We basically both just continued marching north and west, or whatever metaphorical directions you wish it to be.



Let me be clear. I do not defend the stalkers or harassers. I believe that they should be reported to police and they should be arrested. 

I do not support rape threats against her, or any other types of threats. 

But I don't feel that these are the majority of the response to her videos, I also don't believe that because these people exist in a minority of gamer community it validates her arguments. 

I also believe that the focus on this harassment to imply that the majority of the community participates in it is wrong and horrendously insulting.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 9, 2014)

I feel like the woman being shot by that guy who was rejected by her would be a good topic to bring up here... ya know with the whole "violence against women" theme.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 9, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> I feel like the woman being shot by that guy who was rejected by her would be a good topic to bring up here... ya know with the whole "violence against women" theme.



Because the reverse never happens. 

It'd be a stupid attempt to paint the narrative on a completely separate issue. Intellectually dishonest bullshit.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 9, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Because the reverse never happens.
> 
> It'd be a stupid attempt to paint the narrative on a completely separate issue. Intellectually dishonest bullshit.



I just brought it up, I didn't say it never happens.

We have a whole thread devoted to police brutality, white vs black basically, and violence in the middle east. 
You sure the reverse never happens?

You are very touchy, calm down and breath for 2 seconds before you attack everything that doesn't hold your point of view.


----------



## Hand Banana (Oct 9, 2014)

Violence against women, and representation in video games has no correlation.


----------



## Mael (Oct 9, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> I feel like the woman being shot by that guy who was rejected by her would be a good topic to bring up here... ya know with the whole "violence against women" theme.



If you mean that idiot in California, I do hope you also intend to bring up the three other young men he killed at first, because as typical of SJWs they're ignored right off the bat.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 9, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> I just brought it up, I didn't say it never happens.
> 
> We have a whole thread devoted to police brutality, white vs black basically, and violence in the middle east.
> You sure the reverse never happens?
> ...



I don't know who you think you are trying to pull the veil over here. I see that kind of shit all the time. Like I mentioned, such as with what Affleck did when he tried to compare racism against blacks with criticism of Islam. Anyone with half a brain knows that trying to conflate the matter of actual violence against women and this matter is dishonest at its core. It's a paltry attempt to discredit the actual criticism targeted toward the individuals involved in this. 

You're not making any kind of argument here.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 9, 2014)

Mael said:


> If you mean that idiot in California, I do hope you also intend to bring up the three other young men he killed at first, because as typical of SJWs they're ignored right off the bat.



The one in Detroit that someone juuuuuuuuuuuuuust made a thread about.




			
				Seto said:
			
		

> conflate the matter of actual violence against women and this matter is dishonest at its core.



Then enlighten me, oh wise Seto, master of the Blue eyes white dragon.  What am I conflating? That this guy killed woman who rejected his advances?  Or that he killed her because he didn't get what he wanted?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 9, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> The one in Detroit that someone juuuuuuuuuuuuuust made a thread about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Asking that question only tells me you don't read.

Anyway, that has nothing to do with this topic. You're just taking a very dishonest route here.


----------



## Deputy Myself (Oct 9, 2014)

neko-sennin said:


>



wow you're super good at using emoticons on the internet 
have a sticker


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## Subarashii (Oct 9, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Asking that question only tells me you don't read.
> 
> Anyway, that has nothing to do with this topic. You're just taking a very dishonest route here.



Oh I read it all right.  You just come back with vague accusations and attacks on my character. 

Sorry I'm bringing up another article about violence against women in a thread that had, well, e-violence against women.

Sure, they may not have been honest about what they were doing but no *one* deserves violence brought upon them, whether online or in the real world.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 9, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Oh I read it all right.  You just come back with vague accusations and attacks on my character.
> 
> Sorry I'm bringing up another article about violence against women in a thread that had, well, e-violence against women.
> 
> Sure, they may not have been honest about what they were doing but no *one* deserves violence brought upon them, whether online or in the real world.



The fact that you compare harassment online which everyone to a degree has faced that has made their presence known to others to actual violence experienced that threatens one's life only shows how you fail to grasp the gravity of the latter, and only serves to belittle the sufferings of such victims. All it indicates to me is that you don't take the actual matter of violence quite as seriously as you are claiming, considering you are apparently not above trying to use it in a misguided attempt to sway the discussion here. 

It's not violence online, and it is stupid to try and bring up actual violence in a poor attempt to conflate the two. Your attempt to do so only reveals dishonesty on your part and lack of any real point.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 9, 2014)

Ok, Seto, I'm just furthering my agenda of conflating e-violence and real world violence against women


----------



## sadated_peon (Oct 9, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Oh I read it all right.  You just come back with vague accusations and attacks on my character.
> 
> Sorry I'm bringing up another article about violence against women in a thread that had, well, *e-violence* against women.
> 
> Sure, they may not have been honest about what they were doing but no *one* deserves violence brought upon them, whether online or in the real world.



e-violence? what the fuck are you talking about. 
What unholy orifice did you have to pull that aborted atrocity of English language out of?


----------



## hcheng02 (Oct 9, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> This is the problem most people already have a negative image of feminism as it is. Gaming on the other hand is pretty much an accepted and common part of contemporary American culture in contrast. People know that there are assholes on the internet, and people are more than aware that anonymity enables these assholes even moreso, it's nothing new.
> 
> So I reckon that if the common person hears that feminists are having a back-and-forth with the gaming industry, the negative perception is ultimately going to fall on the feminists; because even moreso than gamers and the internet, that movement has a history particularly since the 90s, of being caustic and hostile. Even to the point most women refuse to identify as such.



I think the problem is that many people view feminism nowadays as almost being the millennial equivalent of the Christian moral crusaders in the 90s. That all they really do is sit around looking for something to complain about despite being from a relatively privileged position in society themselves. And that they want to police other people's thoughts and expressions without really understanding the issues or culture at hand and often contradicting themselves in the process. 

And its not the first time these feminists have been a nuisance. There's been a few episodes of this in Penny Arcade's PAX conferences. One was when feminists complained about female objectification because of sexy booth babes, so Mike and Gabe listened to them and decided to ban the booth babes. Next year, there was a cosplayer named Jessica Negri who came in a very skimpy Chainsaw Lollipop Juliet outfit, and Penny Arcade decided to follow its new guidelines and had her cover up. Of course, now there were feminists who were complaining about PAX slutshaming her and whatnot. Gabe describes it in this post.




> Jessica Nigri(NSFW) is the other ?controversy?. I find this one to be super funny actually. Jessica was dressed up to promote the game Lollipop Chainsaw. We had received some complaints and decided that yeah her costume was a bit too revealing for the show floor. The game was being shown inside a bus and so we asked that if she wants to keep the costume on, please stay inside with the game or if you want to be out on the floor please cover up a bit more. Now let me tell you why I find this to be fucking hilarious.
> 
> Last year we were given all kinds of shit for the Duke Nukem booth babes. How could we allow women to be used as sex symbols just to sell a game? How could we allow them on the show floor in their school girl outfits while children and families were walking around? We were vilified for not kicking them off the show floor on the very first day. Now, exactly one year later I am also a monster, but now it?s because I am ?punishing women? by asking them to cover up. I?ve been asked why I find the female body to be ?obscene? and told that I must really hate women.
> 
> ...



And that's not even getting in to the whole "dickwolves" controversy.

Then there is the fact that gamers are used to getting a bad deal with the mainstream press. I remember when Jack Thompson was still around and he was easily able to keep appearing in interviews on talk shows and news channels claiming that video games caused violence and school shootings. I think he filed a couple lawsuits against game companies too. These cases were ultimately dismissed, but with each case he found his way into mainstream press outlets like The Today Show and 60 Minutes. Each TV and news interview game him a just enough credibility that video games remained in the fringe of popular culture. No matter how many copies of a game sell during its first or how big the industry gets, the mainstream press look down on the games and the culture that surrounds the games. Gamers came to believe they have to head this criticism off at the pass in order to prevent the criticism from getting lodged in the mainstream. 

The whole Gamergate thing really took off not because of Zoe Quinn, but rather because the gaming journalists basically simultaneously mouthed off at their readers and played to the worst stereotypes of gamers found in the mainstream press and then barred gamers from talking about it in all the big gaming internet sites like Reddit, Kotaku, etc. Its ironic that despite the game journalists claiming that gamers are a bunch of basement dwelling, socially inept morons they themselves are breaking one of the cardinal rules in business: DON'T INSULT YOUR CUSTOMERS. 

Yeah, its definitely bad that Sarkeesian and Quinn are getting threats and rape jokes thrown at them, but Seto and other people here are correct to note that such things are common in public figures. See these rape jokes about Jack Thompson which hardly caused an uproar amongst feminists.




Can you imagine the uproar amongst feminists if someone drew a webcomic that showed Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian being molested by "misogynist" video games like GTA?


----------



## MartyMcFly1 (Oct 9, 2014)

I seriously wonder sometimes if SJW's are simply looking to the gaming industry as a lucrative revenue source, since their degrees are worthless outside of academia.

In which case I would expect this process to happen:

1. Create the cultural belief that games and gamers have a problem with women.

2. Create a culture of fear that punishes any developer who isn't SJW-approved with negative reviews and ostracism within the industry.

3. Hold yourself up as an expert on what female characters should be.

4. Charge(Extort!) developers with a consultancy fee so their games 'won't have a problem'.

_This is simply about Feminists creating a problem to financially-benefit themselves._

If gamers don't want this process to continue by validating it, they need to boycott 'Mirrors Edge 2', no matter how badly they think they want to play it. Send a clear message with their purchasing power, otherwise the content of each game will have to be pre-approved by a bunch of egg-sucking moral scolds, who are paid handsomely for doing so.



hcheng02 said:


> I think the problem is that many people view feminism nowadays as almost being the millennial equivalent of the Christian moral crusaders in the 90s. That all they really do is sit around looking for something to complain about despite being from a relatively privileged position in society themselves. And that they want to police other people's thoughts and expressions without really understanding the issues or culture at hand and often contradicting themselves in the process.
> 
> And its not the first time these feminists have been a nuisance. There's been a few episodes of this in Penny Arcade's PAX conferences. One was when feminists complained about female objectification because of sexy booth babes, so Mike and Gabe listened to them and decided to ban the booth babes. Next year, there was a cosplayer named Jessica Negri who came in a very skimpy Chainsaw Lollipop Juliet outfit, and Penny Arcade decided to follow its new guidelines and had her cover up. Of course, now there were feminists who were complaining about PAX slutshaming her and whatnot. Gabe describes it in this post.


Sarkeesian is a toxic, self-interested idiot with no interest in gaming, and is simply using it as a tool to grab power for herself. Her videos show an utter lack of awareness of story telling and character function.

Anita Sarkeesian herself is a classic female trope: *the bitter moral crusader.* Think Carrie Nation. You might also recognize her as Mary Whitehouse or Tipper Gore (you ever wonder why albums have warning labels on them?).

If gamers allow developers to take her seriously, and define what can and can't be an acceptable female character, you will end up with a bunch of Mary Sue characters with no realistic human flaws, because any negative character flaw might be misogynistic. Basically, the chick from Twilight, but even more insufferably morally-correct. Expect 'beautiful' female characters to be uglied up.

And if gamers can't boycott one good game, in a world with 30+ years of gaming history to otherwise distract themselves with, they deserve the patronizing moral lectures games will eventually dissolve into.

I doubt Gamergate will change anything. Gamers will buy Mirror's Edge 2 and keep her employed.


----------



## Mael (Oct 9, 2014)

Beautiful...


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 9, 2014)

sadated_peon said:


> e-violence? what the fuck are you talking about.
> What unholy orifice did you have to pull that aborted atrocity of English language out of?



Really? That's what you're mad about?  Shortening "online violence" to "e-violence"?
You gunna crucify the guy who came up with "email" too?


The booth babe thing is up to the woman, her body her choice if she wants to show it off.  But people are pretty divided on that too, even though some may say they're for women's equality and doing what they want, yet they want to restrict what she wears


----------



## hcheng02 (Oct 9, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Really? That's what you're mad about?  Shortening "online violence" to "e-violence"?
> You gunna crucify the guy who came up with "email" too?
> 
> 
> The booth babe thing is up to the woman, her body her choice if she wants to show it off.  But people are pretty divided on that too, even though some may say they're for women's equality and doing what they want, yet they want to restrict what she wears



The problem with the booth babe thing is that it provides an avenue to complain about video games being sexist no matter what. If you let booth babes in, then you are objectifying women. If you don't, then you are slutshaming. There's no way to win this no matter what policy you pursue. You get ragged on by the press and end up looking bad no matter what. 

I think the best way to explain Gamergate's outrage is with an analogy. We all know that the Oscars are pretty corrupt and that the judges decide which movies will win on other criteria other than simply the movie's merits. Like for example they feel that some previous director is old and hasn't gotten an Oscar yet, so they decide that they will give him one now rather than a better movie that year. Or a previous actor was snubbed for an award last time and this year's reward will make up for it. People grumble and complain, but barely tolerate it because its not too big a problem. 

Now imagine that one day, we have a weird arthouse movie that noone has ever heard of win the Oscars for Best Movie with rumors of the female director having some sexual dalliance with the judges. That in itself might raise a few eyebrows, but most people aren't paying much attention or getting too offended by it. But instead of laying low or simply deny the rumors, you have the director and almost the entire entertainment press declare that all moviegoers are stupid lowbrow misogynists whose tastes and culture are on the way to extinction and that socially conscious movies like said Oscar Winning movie win are the future. And all the comment pages and forums in the major websites ban all discussion of the matter. Now people are getting really angry and suspicious about what the press is up to, because it smells like a coverup and collusion. 

Its telling that NFers like Mael, Seto Kaiba, and sadated peon are arguing for Gamergate, which means that its not simply some rightwing reactionary response to social change - aka a video game version of the Tea Party - like some people are making it out to be. Most of them hold moderate left views - having defended stuff like Obamacare and whatnot. They just feel that Gamergate is getting a bad shake with the mainstream press and that they are dealing with a left wing feminist of the moral crusaders that periodically hound the video game industry. Its not like feminists have not done this kind of thing before. Andrea Dworkin and Catherine Mckinnon joined up with the religious right to try and ban porn in the 1970s-1980s.


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## Deleted member 198194 (Oct 9, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Really? That's what you're mad about?  Shortening "online violence" to "e-violence"?
> You gunna crucify the guy who came up with "email" too?



yes let's pretend as if "online violence" even makes sense

inb4 digitally transmitted flu's


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## sadated_peon (Oct 9, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Really? That's what you're mad about?  Shortening "online violence" to "e-violence"?
> You gunna crucify the guy who came up with "email" too?



No because electronic mail (the shorten version of which is email) makes SENSE. 

There is no violence done online, as there is no physicality online for which to enact violence.


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## Gunners (Oct 9, 2014)

E-violence; been a victim of it myself. Someone, once, sent me a stern message in a neg rep. I felt offended, oppressed even.


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## hcheng02 (Oct 9, 2014)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> I seriously wonder sometimes if SJW's are simply looking to the gaming industry as a lucrative revenue source, since their degrees are worthless outside of academia.
> 
> In which case I would expect this process to happen:
> 
> ...



That would probably explain the whole rationale behind the Penny Arcade dickwolves drama, as well as the current one. Because Penny Arcade has made plenty of rape jokes in the past for years without any outcry, which is why they were probably caught off guard and confused when the online feminist community suddenly formed a lynch mob on them. To recap, Penny Arcade made this comic around 2010 and feminists started complaining about how insensitive and misogynist Tycho and Gabe were to rape victims and whatnot.



The problem is that if you have actually followed the webcomic for a while, then you would see that these kind of jokes aren't new or even that special. Its been part of their repertoire for years. Simply type in "rape" on their archive search and you get plenty of other rape joke comics. 





And that's not even mentioning the Fruit Fucker, which is literally a walking, talking rape joke. 



And the reason why those rape jokes didn't make a big splash was because back then Penny Arcade was just another "Gamers on a couch" webcomic, which were a dime a dozen back then. There wasn't much profit to complain about them. Now Penny Arcade is a cultural and media powerhouse that has PAX - which is one of the biggest gaming conventions currently - a charity Child's Play, and has been recognized by the mainstream media as one of the most influential media voices of the generation. Whining about them will actually net them clicks and profit. Other lesser celebrities do this too - its called "punching up."




> This ?war? between Cupp and Limbaugh is a one-way street. But to the former, the goal has already been achieved.
> 
> *And that goal seems to be attention via punching up, which is when a relatively small entity with nothing to lose goes after a significantly larger entity (insert predictable joke here) with more stature and notoriety.* In this case, it is obviously Cupp who is sporting the boxing gloves as co-host of an MSNBC show (The Cycle) that averages about 500,000 total viewers per day, while Rush averages (and this number varies depending on who?s reporting it, so we?ll go with the least-polarizing outlet, CNN) 14 million listeners per week.
> 
> ...



And the funny thing is that Penny Arcade has already made a comic about this phenonmenon already.



Just replace the guy with Anita Sarkeesian, Zoe Quinn, or whatever flavor of the month online feminist.


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## Chelydra (Oct 9, 2014)

Well Zoe Quinn does have a few nudes roaming about.(Unless those are hoaxes) She is fairly decent looking, too bad thats the only thing decent about her


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## MartyMcFly1 (Oct 9, 2014)

Gunners said:


> E-violence; been a victim of it myself. Someone, once, sent me a stern message in a neg rep. I felt offended, oppressed even.



We're all victims of this heinous violence. Accepting it is the first step.


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## Deleted member 84471 (Oct 9, 2014)

Surely 'e-violence' just refers to harassment? Harassment is a serious matter, and the Internet's hardly a barrier against it - it can facilitate it in many obvious ways. 

By the way, I remember this Anita Sarkeesian character doing this sexism in video game series a year or two ago. Why is it flaring up now, again?


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## Hand Banana (Oct 9, 2014)

E-violence lol that's a thing now. So fucking stupid


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## Seto Kaiba (Oct 9, 2014)

erictheking said:


> Surely 'e-violence' just refers to harassment? Harassment is a serious matter, and the Internet's hardly a barrier against it - it can facilitate it in many obvious ways.
> 
> By the way, I remember this Anita Sarkeesian character doing this sexism in video game series a year or two ago. Why is it flaring up now, again?



Then call it 'harassment'. "E-Violence" is a stupid term to use in a piss-poor attempt to make it worse than it is. 

Because her entire moneymaking venture is presenting herself as a victim and she's stuck her head in this issue as well.


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## Hand Banana (Oct 9, 2014)

Electronic pain. ePain.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 9, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> Or an Iron Man spin off where Tony Stark in a deeply emotional man who knows how to get in touch with his feminine side AND ravage a lady like there's no tomorrow?



*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Oct 9, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Then call it 'harassment'. "E-Violence" is a stupid term to use in a piss-poor attempt to make it worse than it is.



It depends entirely on the nature of the harassment. If it involves credible violent threats, it's not stupid at all.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 9, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> I feel like the woman being shot by that guy who was rejected by her would be a good topic to bring up here... ya know with the whole "violence against women" theme.



And I'll bring up women cutting off dicks.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 9, 2014)

erictheking said:


> It depends entirely on the nature of the harassment. If it involves credible violent threats, it's not stupid at all.



It doesn't, and threatening violence is still not violence. Harassment online is not violence, it is a completely stupid term.


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## Hunter (Oct 9, 2014)

Wow. This is is still going on. 2014 has been one hell of a year.


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## Deleted member 84471 (Oct 9, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> It doesn't, and threatening violence is still not violence. Harassment online is not violence, it is a completely stupid term.



Bullshit.



> The definition of violent crime suggests that violence is a behavior by persons, against persons or property *that intentionally threatens,* attempts, or actually inflicts physical harm.



uslegal.com



> The term “crime of violence” means—
> 
> (a) an offense that has as an element the use, attempted use, *or threatened use of physical force against the person* or property of another, or
> (b) any other offense that is a felony and that, by its nature, involves a substantial risk that physical force against the person or property of another may be used in the course of committing the offense.





Care to e-mail your corrections to the above sources?

What a tedious fucking debate.


----------



## Gunners (Oct 9, 2014)

erictheking said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You do realise that immediacy is required for threats?


----------



## P3IN (Oct 9, 2014)

Mario, a 4'10 italian dude with his elated red clothing and his moustahce that can make anyone deride. And yet oversized boobs are an issue.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 9, 2014)

erictheking said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



(a) an offense that has as an element the use, *attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against the person or property of another*, or

I want you to pay real close attention to the underlined...

(b) any other offense that is a felony and that, by its nature, *involves a substantial risk that physical force against the person or property of another may be used *in the course of committing the offense.

This is why you don't have people prosecuted for harassment online, as opposed to arrest of individuals that physically threaten an individual. Because online harassment is not violence, nor is it alone reasonable cause to believe whatever threats if any, will be carried out. Online harassment is not violence, and definitely not a violent crime.

A tedious debate indeed when you don't even know the contents of what you read. 

So again, e-violence being a moronic term. It is simply harassment. Subarashii was desperately trying to paint the narrative by doing what she could to tie to actual violence, which only serves to belittle the matter. Yet the intention was clearly enough, to paint dissenting arguments in a particular manner, and those presenting them in an atrocious light. Same as again, when Affleck invoked black racism in response to criticism of Islam.

This is entirely stupid, and the matter of violence against women or harassment really is not at the core of the issue, but a desperate play at distraction from actual focus on the matter. People get harassed online, it happens and it is nothing new nor was it anything exclusive to Sarkeesian, Quinn, or whomever else.


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Oct 10, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> (a) an offense that has as an element the use, *attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against the person or property of another*, or
> 
> I want you to pay real close attention to the underlined...
> 
> ...





Why are you writing all this as though I can't see what you just posted 5 posts further up the page?



Seto Kaiba said:


> It doesn't, and threatening violence is still not violence. Harassment online is not violence, it is a completely stupid term.



1. You say that whether online harassment can be described as violent or not *doesn't depend* on the nature of the harassment - whether it involves _credible violent threats_ or not, as I specified in precisely those words. As though the mere fact of communicating violent threats via the Internet renders them non-credible.

2. You say quite literally that threatening violence *does not* constitute an act or crime that can be described as violent. When I demonstrate that it does, you pretend as though I never specified that the violent threats ought to be credible to be taken seriously.

Trying to change everything you said within 5 posts ffs! 

And I made it reasonably clear by implication in my first post in this thread that I was talking about generalities and not this particular case, when I asked why Sarkeesian's name was coming up again.



Gunners said:


> You do realise that immediacy is required for threats?



Well, what about,

E.g. "I'm going to [violent threat] when you drop your kid off at [name of kid's school] at 9 o clock".

I'm sure that such a threat can be prosecuted in this country when much less specific threats have been, over Twitter in the recent past.


----------



## sadated_peon (Oct 10, 2014)

erictheking said:


> Bullshit.
> uslegal.com
> 
> 
> ...



You don't seem to understand what this means. It is talking about someone holding a gun on someone and saying, get on the ground or I will shoot you.
The treat of violence is intimidate and will result from non-compliance. 

The main item here is the ability to immediately inflict physical harm to the person. No such things are happening here, and at any point they did, this would be a crime of violence. 

ANY condition where immediate physical harm could come to the person is already covered in the law and the definition. e-violence is impossible and ludicrous because it establishs electronic-physicality.


----------



## Subarashii (Oct 10, 2014)

P3IN said:


> Mario, a 4'10 italian dude with his elated red clothing and his moustahce that can make anyone deride. And yet oversized boobs are an issue.



His mustache is pretty large and in charge.  I could understand how a man, only able to grow a crustache Michael Cera would feel inadequate and emasculated by his giant manhood.


----------



## Mael (Oct 10, 2014)

sadated_peon said:


> You don't seem to understand what this means. It is talking about someone holding a gun on someone and saying, get on the ground or I will shoot you.
> The treat of violence is intimidate and will result from non-compliance.
> 
> The main item here is the ability to immediately inflict physical harm to the person. No such things are happening here, and at any point they did, this would be a crime of violence.
> ...



Eric posted the wrong USC code section.

It's actually defined better through 18 USC Section 875 (Interstate Communications):


> (a) Whoever transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication containing any demand or request for a ransom or reward for the release of any kidnapped person, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
> (b) Whoever, with intent to extort from any person, firm, association, or corporation, any money or other thing of value, transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication containing any threat to kidnap any person or any threat to injure the person of another, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
> (c) Whoever transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication containing any threat to kidnap any person or any threat to injure the person of another, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
> (d) Whoever, with intent to extort from any person, firm, association, or corporation, any money or other thing of value, transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication containing any threat to injure the property or reputation of the addressee or of another or the reputation of a deceased person or any threat to accuse the addressee or any other person of a crime, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.



Anita's a twat and I think she definitely needs to be put in her place but serious online threats are srs bzns.  Remember when that dumb hick made a YT vid about shooting Obama and then black people at a mall?

Same thing.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 10, 2014)

erictheking said:


> Why are you writing all this as though I can't see what you just posted 5 posts further up the page?



Because it seems you can't. 



> 1. You say that whether online harassment can be described as violent or not *doesn't depend* on the nature of the harassment - whether it involves _credible violent threats_ or not, as I specified in precisely those words. As though the mere fact of communicating violent threats via the Internet renders them non-credible.
> 
> 2. You say quite literally that threatening violence *does not* constitute an act or crime that can be described as violent. When I demonstrate that it does, you pretend as though I never specified that the violent threats ought to be credible to be taken seriously.





			
				You said:
			
		

> It depends entirely on the nature of the harassment. If it involves credible violent threats, it's not stupid at all.



_It doesn't, and threatening violence is still not violence. Harassment online is not violence, it is a completely stupid term._

Harassment online isn't enough to qualify as a valid threat, and again, wouldn't be violence; so using the term "e-violence" to describe it is completely moronic, particularly since Subarashii attempted to use it as a catch-all term for the matter of online harassment in general. Most of what Sarkeesian and Quinn have experienced aren't threats but simple harassment everyone experiences when they have online presence.



> Trying to change everything you said within 5 posts ffs!



I've remained pretty on-point, regardless of your ability or lack thereof to grasp it.



> And I made it reasonably clear by implication in my first post in this thread that I was talking about generalities and not this particular case, when I asked why Sarkeesian's name was coming up again.



And I said to simply call it "harassment" because trying to call it "e-violence" is moronic since it alone isn't enough to determine credible threat. Which is why since you missed it the first time, that alone isn't enough to prosecute a person. Not to mention, it too tries to equate it with actual violence. Which is what she was obviously trying to do.


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Oct 10, 2014)

It is a matter of fact that such cases of credible online violent threats have been prosecuted. Mael did me the favour of citing the correct legal language; I was just trying to justify the description of 'violence' for serious violent threats and the wider point of such threats being no laughing matter. I'm clearly not talking about being called names or anything in that realm which anyone has to be able to handle online.


----------



## Mael (Oct 10, 2014)

erictheking said:


> It is a matter of fact that such cases of credible online violent threats have been prosecuted. Mael did me the favour of citing the correct legal language; I was just trying to justify the description of 'violence' for serious violent threats and the wider point of such threats being no laughing matter. I'm clearly not talking about being called names or anything in that realm which anyone has to be able to handle online.



The problem is how people also receive such things.

Some of what was said to Anita does constitute a threat.  When analyzing the threats made one has to also look at the people saying it and the feasibility of such things.  It's very subjective when online.  For example, threats against the government or the POTUS are really srs bzns whereas some Facebook threat from one student to another about getting roughed up won't even register a blip.

However her saying she called the police and filed a report and then the police department saying they have no record of her filing one also constitutes a serious violation.

Alas that's for another debate.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Oct 10, 2014)

I think despite all of Sarkeesian's, Quinn's and their crowds perpetual victimhood, the most disgusting thing has been the doxxing their advocates have done. Some that dissent have even had their jobs lost through it. Some doxxed that were even children, but justified (to themselves) on the basis that since these kids were males, particularly white males, that it was well-deserved. Note when I mean kids, I mean those that are barely teenagers.

Even a kid that expressed a civil disagreement with Sarkeesian had his personal information posted and his facebook hacked by a "hacktivist" feminist on the basis of his "privilege".


----------



## Mael (Oct 10, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I think despite all of Sarkeesian's, Quinn's and their crowds perpetual victimhood, the most disgusting thing has been the doxxing their advocates have done. Some that dissent have even had their jobs lost through it. Some doxxed that were even children, but justified (to themselves) on the basis that since these kids were males, particularly white males, that it was well-deserved. Note when I mean kids, I mean those that are barely teenagers.
> 
> Even a kid that expressed a civil disagreement with Sarkeesian had his personal information posted and his facebook hacked by a "hacktivist" feminist on the basis of his "privilege".



See, that is very interesting, because what it does is actually put the folks that support Quinn and Anita into serious violations.  They're falsifying information or getting people fired for very unjust reasons which brings up slews of wrongful termination suits or EEOC violations.

It also makes them massive hypocrites, but then again the SJW movement was never about integrity.



> males, particularly white males



This is why we shouldn't be encouraging SJWs either and this shit needs to stop ASAP.  If I ever have a son the last thing I want is for some screaming cunt to tell him that his very genetic background is some sort of original sin.

These people are also violating privacy policies and even legal foundations.


----------



## Mael (Oct 10, 2014)

Also, while a bit unrelated, I hope people sign this because a) Rebecca Watson needs to be put in her place and b) not doing this is going to greatly disservice the scientific community and women who actually help the cause of equality like Dr. Sutton.


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## Subarashii (Oct 10, 2014)

Mael said:


> Also, while a bit unrelated, I hope people sign this because a) Rebecca Watson needs to be put in her place and b) not doing this is going to greatly disservice the scientific community and women who actually help the cause of equality like Dr. Sutton.



What's Dr. Sutton's first name? There are a lot of them on the internet


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## Mael (Oct 10, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> What's Dr. Sutton's first name? There are a lot of them on the internet



Jesus Christ click on the fucking link.


It's not hard to find out yourself.

But to hand-hold you...it's Eliza.


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## Subarashii (Oct 10, 2014)

Mael said:


> Jesus Christ click on the fucking link.
> 
> 
> It's not hard to find out yourself.
> ...



>At work
>Barracuda Network blocks access

Thanks though


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## Xiammes (Oct 10, 2014)

> Note when I mean kids, I mean those that are barely teenagers.



That kid had balls, even after the doxing he said something along the lines of "why should I be upset that people can't handle a opinion". The kid was 12 years old.

Its pretty disgusting how they are white washing their crimes, even when /v/ and /pol/ allowed Gamer gate discussion no one other then shills advocated doxing.


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## Mael (Oct 10, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> >At work
> >Barracuda Network blocks access
> 
> Thanks though



You should've said that from the get-go.


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## blueblip (Oct 11, 2014)

I know, I know. I'm days late. But I really didn't have the time to sit and type up a long, coherent post.



Seto Kaiba said:


> @blueblip: The fact that she slept with these individuals involved in something as gaming reviews and that again, some have reviewed her games presents a conflict of interest. Even if they didn't review the games, they are both in particular professions where such intimate relations present a clear breach of professional ethics. Particularly because regardless they DO have a professional relationship on top of that.  It's not simply that she slept with these guys, hell it's not even her infidelity. It's how it relates to professional ethics.


Again, her sleeping with people who happen to be journalists doesn't mean jack unless there's explicit proof she slept with them to get good reviews. Until that proof materialises, such claims are simply unfounded and constitute slander (which is, of course, wrong). Hence my point that the entire foundation that GamerGate relies on is disingenuous and dishonest.



> Could you imagine for example if we found out a particular journalist in the actual news media was bedding the people they were supposed to be reporting on? There would be a lot of issues with that, and for good reason.


It actually happens more often than you think. It's normal, actually, because journalists interact on a regular basis with people of their beat circles and form friendships in them. It's only a problem if a reporter starts sleeping with someone and then starts giving biased coverage, which isn't what happened with Quinn.

To use another industry as an example: if a manager from Merrill Lynch sleeps with a manager from Citigroup, are you going to accuse them of indulging in insider trading without proof that they are? Are you going to demand they be hauled up by the SEC without proof?



> It's not just her, there is a clear issue here that goes beyond her and has been a long-standing one at that, on gaming "journalism", and a conflict of interest as it pertains to their personal relationships with particular developers, and compensations for favorable reviews by them and other gaming development entities. Again, like one Geoff Keighley, a supposed professional reviewer and game journalist that was clearly paid big bucks by a company he is professionally tasked to be a watchdog of.


Yes, which is why I say Quinn is irrelevant in the scheme of 'corrupt' gaming journalism. She's not indicative of anything. Indie developers are still a very small portion of the industry's sales pie (relatively speaking). If GamerGaters really had a beef with publication-publisher collusion, then they would be targeting EA, Atari, and other such companies. But they are not, which is why I'm calling the claim that the movement is about compromised journalism bullshit. Unless you're saying Zoe Quinn is guilty of more review fudging than the giant publishers, using her as the point of anger is nothing more than using a red herring.



> This has been an issue for years, it only boiled over because primarily the involvement of the social justice crowd, and the hard evidence presented on matters NOT LIMITED TO ZOE QUINN that have revealed a massive conflict of interest here. Not to mention, that again, oddly the rhetoric for many of these purported gaming journalism websites adopt the same rhetoric in response to the matter at hand as they always have.


Which is what I've been saying, but NO ONE is calling for doxxing EA's board of directors. Quinn is being targeted because she's a soft target. 4chan nutters can easily target her. They don't have the guts to go against the real problem people. If gamers are truly pissed about compromised ethics in gaming journalism, then target the people who DO indulge in it, and who's actions have a noticeable impact on gamers' choices on how they spend their money.

Again, Quinn is so small and irrelevant that holding her up as an example of devs and publishers buying favourable reviews is just silly and dishonest, especially since there is literally zero proof she's bought favourable reviews to begin with!



> On the issue as a whole, gamers taking notice of all this for years, you've had numerous notable individuals give their take AT LENGTH on the issue at large. It is just patent dishonesty to pretend otherwise. This very article is related to a matter that extends beyond her. Quinn was merely symptomatic of a larger issue, gamers were suspecting for years.


Yes, I get that Quinn was the straw that broke the gamer camel's back. Which I'm fine with despite my issues. But that's where the bullshit of Gamergate begins. Gamergate supporters have not moved past Quinn AT ALL in their 'crusade' to fix gaming journalism. There are no discussions on publishers buying reviews. Supporters are not talking about taking action against companies that actually have an impact on gamer buying tendencies (which, I can assure you, Quinn has almost no effect on).

So when I see GamerGate supporters purport that they are campaigning about bringing in ethics into gaming journalism, but refuse to move the discussion past someone who is completely irrelevant in the larger picture the movement is supposed to be about, I'm naturally going to call bullshit on the true motives of the movement.



> Also the harassment has gone both ways, these people backing Sarkeesian and Quinn-types have even doxxed kids, and tried to justify it even worse. Like I said even named people have been implicated in attempts to doxx and hack sites and people's profiles that expressed a dissenting viewpoint from their own.


Refer to my bit on how I ignore morons from both ends. They're scum, and you ought to know that the more you focus on them, the more they're gonna get off on it!



> Don't know about India but they are not a minority here anymore as it pertains to feminism. There was a huge change in it some years ago to the point where most women don't even associate with the term. It's become not only online, but in academics as well, an insular movement that feeds into its own increasing radicalism.


I'm intimately familiar with the...situation...regarding radical feminism in the US. It doesn't help that the lot of modern day feminism ideas in India are shaped by those radicals in the US. And while I agree it's permeated to an alarming degree in academics (and the rank and file Tumblr kook), it's still nowhere near as powerful as you're making it out to be.

Again, name me one radical feminist who's successfully been elected to a public office. Name me one radical feminist who's on the board of a powerful company. Name me one radical feminist involved in the STEM fields. The answer is: none! At the end of the day, radical feminists don't pass the bullshit smell test any better than other radical ism-ists do because, well, they truly only appeal to a fringe group of people. They are loud as fuck, yes, but that's why we think we hear them more than others. The truly smart feminists do the real work quietly, and...

Hey, anecdote sharing time!


I'm acquainted with a very well known woman Indian writer (and former wife of a Nobel laureate, so the Indians amongst us can probably guess who she is). She's as smart as you can get. She identifies herself as a feminist. Once, I was paying her a visit and we got to discussing about feminism in India, and she said something I found interesting. Like many of us, she finds many of the loud mouthed feminists to be shysters who are jumping on the feminism bandwagon in an effort to give themselves importance. And while their behaviour irks real feminists, she also pointed out that, in a way, it's a saving grace because these loud mouthed morons spend all their time trying to get attention, which means they don't do actual groundwork to promote women's rights. That is still in the hands of people who do truly care, and she told me as long as these incompetents stay out of the way of the real work, she can tolerate their rantings and ravings. They'd only be truly dangerous if they try to get themselves involved in fieldwork educating women on their rights because they would feed them false information. Thankfully, she also believes they would never lower themselves to doing field work because, well, that requires doing actual work.

Hence I say that the Tumblr brigade members are really not that much of an issue, nor do they hold any real positions of power, even within the feminist movement. They prefer to stay on the fringes because the alternative means spending more time reading, studying, working, and research and less time in self-promotion. The only ones who take them seriously are their own selves, and as such, there's nothing to worry about by ignoring.

EDIT: Would like to also add that if GamerGate was actually about unethical gaming journalism/journalists, I find it very odd that Quinn is being subjected to this kind of harassment but none of the journalists who she supposedly slept with for good reviews has faced anything remotely at this level.

EDIT 2: After typing all this, I just realised another major problem with the movement. Game reviews are not news stories; they are op-eds. Opinion pieces. Which means they don't get held to the standards of a regular hard news article or features write up. Op-eds (and reviews by extension) are biased from the get-go, and the idea that someone sleeping with someone else compromises the objectivity of the process is stupid since reviews are not objective write ups to begin with!


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## chikmagnet7 (Oct 11, 2014)

blueblip said:


> Again, her sleeping with people who happen to be journalists doesn't mean jack unless there's explicit proof she slept with them to get good reviews.



Mean jack to whom, and in what sense? I'd argue that whether she slept with someone for good reviews is not the only relevant piece of information. She, an unknown developer, received positive coverage of her game over other people. Why? I think a plausible reason is her close relationship with at least one member of the gaming press who covered her game. That's nepotism, and it's a problem. 




blueblip said:


> Until that proof materialises, such claims are simply unfounded and constitute slander (which is, of course, wrong). Hence my point that the entire foundation that GamerGate relies on is disingenuous and dishonest.



"Claims" were never made. There were calls to "look into" it (you know, like journalists are supposed to do). Also, even if you were right, and gamergate were built on disingenuous claims, that wouldn't change what it is now. 



blueblip said:


> It actually happens more often than you think. It's normal, actually, because journalists interact on a regular basis with people of their beat circles and form friendships in them. It's only a problem if a reporter starts sleeping with someone and then starts giving biased coverage, which isn't what happened with Quinn.



So I don't know how many classes on journalistic ethics you've taken, but that's entirely inaccurate. Not only does it not happen often, it's considered unethical. Even just a casual examination of basic journalism ethics will explain to you that journalists are expected to maintain professional distance between themselves and story subjects.



blueblip said:


> To use another industry as an example: if a manager from Merrill Lynch sleeps with a manager from Citigroup, are you going to accuse them of indulging in insider trading without proof that they are? Are you going to demand they be hauled up by the SEC without proof?



It's not analogous, because being a manager at Citigroup isn't a job that requires professional distance from the manager at Merrill Lynch. Now, if you were, say, a government agent whose job it was to interrogate potential spies, one of whom was your good friend, that would be something to disclose and perhaps remove yourself from. 



blueblip said:


> Indie developers are still a very small portion of the industry's sales pie (relatively speaking). If GamerGaters really had a beef with publication-publisher collusion, then they would be targeting EA, Atari, and other such companies. But they are not, which is why I'm calling the claim that the movement is about compromised journalism bullshit.



This just seems like an unfounded logical leap. "If it's not the case that they're going after X, they must not really care about Y." They're boycotting websites that have either been accused of ethical transgressions, or, more recently, been slandering them and gamers in general. They're whitelisting sites that talk about the issue reasonably, that consider their perspective, and allow free discussion. That's evidence against your claim. 



blueblip said:


> If gamers are truly pissed about compromised ethics in gaming journalism, then target the people who DO indulge in it, and who's actions have a noticeable impact on gamers' choices on how they spend their money.
> Again, Quinn is so small and irrelevant that holding her up as an example of devs and publishers buying favourable reviews is just silly and dishonest, especially since there is literally zero proof she's bought favourable reviews to begin with!



If you've been following the movement, and not just reading what you hear, then you'd know that it hasn't been about Quinn (or even brought her up) for well over a month now. At the moment, it's focused mainly on Kotaku, Gamasutra, Polygon, etc. and pulling advertisers from these places.



blueblip said:


> Gamergate supporters have not moved past Quinn AT ALL in their 'crusade' to fix gaming journalism. There are no discussions on publishers buying reviews. Supporters are not talking about taking action against companies that actually have an impact on gamer buying tendencies (which, I can assure you, Quinn has almost no effect on).



Forgive me if this sounds rude, but what color is the sky on your planet? This is just simply false.  or /r/kotakuinaction. NO ONE is talking about Quinn except for people who keep claiming that GG is talking about Quinn. It's extremely bizarre. 



blueblip said:


> EDIT: Would like to also add that if GamerGate was actually about unethical gaming journalism/journalists, I find it very odd that Quinn is being subjected to this kind of harassment but none of the journalists who she supposedly slept with for good reviews has faced anything remotely at this level.



That would probably be odd...if it were true. Tons of other journalists and people on both sides -- both men and women -- have been harassed. Phil Fish had his damn website hacked! Meanwhile, when Brad Wardel and Max Tempkin were merely _accused_ of wrongdoing, the gaming press ate it up. It's amazing to me how they were so quick to defend Quinn of any wrongdoing, particularly when the evidence available in The Zoe Post proves beyond any reasonable doubt that she's a narcissist and a domestic abuser. I guess people don't really care when that's a woman, though. 



blueblip said:


> EDIT 2: After typing all this, I just realised another major problem with the movement. Game reviews are not news stories; they are op-eds. Opinion pieces. Which means they don't get held to the standards of a regular hard news article or features write up. Op-eds (and reviews by extension) are biased from the get-go, and the idea that someone sleeping with someone else compromises the objectivity of the process is stupid since reviews are not objective write ups to begin with!



Reviews are supposed to be objective in that they're not supposed to be biased by friendships or paid agreements. They're subjective in that people have their own views on things and should be free to say what they honestly think unchecked. Gamergate is mainly interested in ending the former. The issue with the latter has more to do with ideological diversity (i.e. the same damn social issues being squeezed into video game reviews) and the lack of differing perspectives on certain social issues (for instance, compare the game journalists' response to Anita Sarkeesian to their response to Christina Hoff Sommers.).


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## blueblip (Oct 11, 2014)

chikmagnet7 said:


> Mean jack to whom, and in what sense? I'd argue that whether she slept with someone for good reviews is not the only relevant piece of information. She, an unknown developer, received positive coverage of her game over other people. Why? I think a plausible reason is her close relationship with at least one member of the gaming press who covered her game. That's nepotism, and it's a problem.


Which is an assumption on your part, and nothing more. You're coming up with a theory and making the facts fit it instead of the other way round. Assumptions are just that - assumptions. It isn't proof of wrongdoing. Make all the connections you want, it's still not proof.

I mean, it's not like people don't have multiple partners in other walks of life, right? Obviously, according to you, anyone who sleeps around is looking to gain something.

Again, bring me proof that her sleeping around was specifically for positive reviews of her game, and not just...sleeping around.



> "Claims" were never made. There were calls to "look into" it (you know, like journalists are supposed to do). Also, even if you were right, and gamergate were built on disingenuous claims, that wouldn't change what it is now.


Claims were made. Which is why it blew up. People CLAIMED that she slept with journos for good reviews. I have no idea how you're trying to spin this into something else!

And yes, it does make a difference. Unless you're saying a movement that claims to be interested in uprooting a moral and ethical issue in the gaming industry itself is founded on an unethical premise is perfectly fine. In which case, pots and kettles, and Zoe Quinn really shouldn't be getting the flak that she is. If it's okay for GamerGate to found itself on a false premise, it's okay for Quinn to promote herself through immoral acts.

It's like I start a movement to end racism in Hollywood on the basis of a black actor not getting a role because he was black, only to find out that was a lie, and then saying, "Welp! The movement has taken a life of its own! It doesn't matter that the basis of my movement to bring about a better moral and ethical environment in the movie industry is based of an unethical lie! I categorically claim it's not being hypocritical!"



> So I don't know how many classes on journalistic ethics you've taken, but that's entirely inaccurate. Not only does it not happen often, it's considered unethical. Even just a casual examination of basic journalism ethics will explain to you that journalists are expected to maintain professional distance between themselves and story subjects.
> 
> It's not analogous, because being a manager at Citigroup isn't a job that requires professional distance from the manager at Merrill Lynch. Now, if you were, say, a government agent whose job it was to interrogate potential spies, one of whom was your good friend, that would be something to disclose and perhaps remove yourself from.


I don't know how many journalists you've actually interacted with (or how much you know about journalism at all!), but what YOU said is entirely inaccurate. My entire career involves me working very closely with journalists day in and day out (and no, I'm not a marketing or sales person, and I'm not a PR person either, and neither am I in the gaming industry), and I've done so across four continents (I know it sounds like e-bragging, but facts are facts). Journalists forming close ties with people involved with the beat they cover is NOT considered unethical because that's how they do their job. Sources don't volunteer information to anyone who shows up with a press card. They talk to people who they know and trust to report on what they say accurately, and the closer the ties the journalist has with a source, the more likely they are to get important and critical information. What IS unethical is for a journalist to except gifts from sources.

Every damn news media house on the planet has a set amount that journalists can receive from sources, but any offer exceeding that amount must be declined and reported to the reporter's editor. For example, a news media house will allow reporters to receive $50 worth in gifts (often at press conferences or media events, hampers/vouchers/gifts are handed out as part of the press kit), but it should never exceed that. The actual amount varies from house to house, but yeah...that's how things work. Also keep in mind that many times, journalists and their sources DO become close friends because they're constantly working with each other and interact on a day-to-day basis (this is especially so for beat reporters). It's like bonding that happens with any job - you can't stop people from liking each other. They visit each other for Christmas, buy each other's families gifts, etc. They are not expected to maintain 'professional distance'. Be a reporter, and try doing that, and you'll see how stupid the idea is.

Let me further clarify. There's a difference between getting a generic quote:

Reporter: "Hi, I'm blueblip with the New York Times, and I'm doing a story on XYZ and I was wondering if you don't mind me asking you a few questions on it?"

Talking Head: "Okay. I can spare a few minutes." or "Sure, but just email me the questions."

That sort of interaction is doable for anyone with press credentials.

But that's not what makes good reporter. A good reporter is someone who gets more than the generic quotes anyone else can get. Sensitive information. Contacts. Sources. And that is only done by forming close ties with people working within that beat the reporter covers. For example, a beat reporter with strong ties to members of the Democrat party is the guy who's going to get the real inside information on what's going on within it. That's the reporter that will be welcome within the party's circle. That's the reporter that can then tell us, the public, what's really going on behind closed doors. A unknown is never going to be privy to anything more than a generic ready-for-press statement or a no comment (especially with regards to major stories/events). Do you really think people who cover beats like security and defense don't have close ties with senior officers in the Army/CIA/FBI/etc.? Do you really think reporters that cover the White House aren't on a first name basis with the press secretary, or that the press secretary will give out important information to anyone who walks up to their office with a press pass? Don't be naive.

And yes, I've seen reporters and sources date and even marry each other. Because that's what happens when people work together closely on an everyday basis - like in any other job. It's also why my comparison to managers from two different finance houses interacting and having a tryst holds - because in the finance sector people ARE wary of things like insider trading and corporate espionage occurring. Vital company information can slip out or be abused to favour someone. So yes, some would argue there IS an expectation that finance dabblers should maintain 'professional distance' from each other, by your own argument.


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## blueblip (Oct 11, 2014)

_cont. from above..._



> This just seems like an unfounded logical leap. "If it's not the case that they're going after X, they must not really care about Y." They're boycotting websites that have either been accused of ethical transgressions, or, more recently, been slandering them and gamers in general. They're whitelisting sites that talk about the issue reasonably, that consider their perspective, and allow free discussion. That's evidence against your claim.
> 
> If you've been following the movement, and not just reading what you hear, then you'd know that it hasn't been about Quinn (or even brought her up) for well over a month now. At the moment, it's focused mainly on Kotaku, Gamasutra, Polygon, etc. and pulling advertisers from these places.
> 
> ...


And yet this thread, and every other place of debate on the subject online, invariably boils down to Zoe Quinn. Heck, in this very thread, I was the first person to raise the issue of going after the big publishers. Not a single person talked about it or raised it as a point prior to me.

I didn't claim there's NO discussion whatsoever. I claimed that the conversation is not moving past Quinn. And it really isn't.

To top it off, you're saying doxxing Quinn is a-okay, but them not having the guts to dox EA's board members is good behaviour? That's a pretty warped view, especially since Quinn is completely immaterial in the grand scheme of buying favourable reviews! Whitelisting sites isn't remotely as strong a reaction as GamerGate supporters have done to Quinn. When they take on the big companies that are immediately and noticeably influencing gaming journalism's objectivity in as aggressive a manner as they have against Quinn, I'll consider it a valid point. Otherwise, what you're describing is mere mewling.



> That would probably be odd...if it were true. Tons of other journalists and people on both sides -- both men and women -- have been harassed. Phil Fish had his damn website hacked! Meanwhile, when Brad Wardel and Max Tempkin were merely _accused_ of wrongdoing, the gaming press ate it up. It's amazing to me how they were so quick to defend Quinn of any wrongdoing, particularly when the evidence available in The Zoe Post proves beyond any reasonable doubt that she's a narcissist and a domestic abuser. I guess people don't really care when that's a woman, though.


To the extent Quinn has been harassed? No, I definitely don't see that. Which, again, is very odd since the journalists themselves should have been the ones facing the full ire of GamerGate supporters, not Quinn. Double standards much?

And why are you bringing up the journos themselves? I've stated repeatedly that I think they're proverbially sleeping with industry publishers. Pointing out their bad behaviour to me doesn't jack, nor does it absolve GamerGate supporters of their behaviour towards Quinn. And really, what the fuck does Quinn being a shitty person have to do with unethical behaviour of the gaming press?? That's like saying since Gandhi was a saint, all Bangladeshis deserve to receive $20,000. What the hell is the connection here??



> Reviews are supposed to be objective in that they're not supposed to be biased by friendships or paid agreements. They're subjective in that people have their own views on things and should be free to say what they honestly think unchecked. Gamergate is mainly interested in ending the former. The issue with the latter has more to do with ideological diversity (i.e. the same damn social issues being squeezed into video game reviews) and the lack of differing perspectives on certain social issues (for instance, compare the game journalists' response to Anita Sarkeesian to their response to Christina Hoff Sommers.).


Which is fine and dandy, but unless you can *categorically prove that their reviews have been influenced by external factors, you can't claim they're doing it!* There are, of course, plenty of prior examples of a reviewer's piece getting slanted due to various sort of payoffs. Quinn's case isn't one of them.


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## Subarashii (Oct 11, 2014)

Ringabel said:


> And I'll bring up women cutting off dicks.



If you wana talk about the rare instance when a woman cuts off a guys dick for cheating let's talk about institutionalized female genital mutilation.


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## Xiammes (Oct 11, 2014)

I can't be bothered to reply to everything, just going to cherry pick.



> Again, her sleeping with people who happen to be journalists doesn't mean jack unless there's explicit proof she slept with them to get good reviews. Until that proof materialises, such claims are simply unfounded and constitute slander (which is, of course, wrong). Hence my point that the entire foundation that GamerGate relies on is disingenuous and dishonest.



>sleeps with several video game journalists
>cheats on her boyfriend with them
>commits rape by her own definition 

Yeah, is not like she was trying to get ahead.




> To the extent Quinn has been harassed? No, I definitely don't see that. Which, again, is very odd since the journalists themselves should have been the ones facing the full ire of GamerGate supporters, not Quinn. Double standards much?



Quinn was no longer relevant to gamergate after the first week, she did everything in her power to make it about her and misogyny, her patron tripled due to this event, she didn't want to stop money flowing in.



> Hence my point that the entire foundation that GamerGate relies on is disingenuous and dishonest.



Gamergate was a term coined by adam baldwin a few weeks in to the shitstorm, the entire foundation started when Quinn started censoring video's, which got people upset. It turned what would be a small shitstorm into something massive. 

After IA original video, just about every website was censoring discussion about it, 30k comments were deleted off of one thread on reddit, 4chan was also getting heavily moderated about it. Then Quinn faked her own doxing to garner sympathy, this got even tumblr to turn against her. 

Then to prove we are better then her, /v/ and /pol/ supported a women video game charity that Quinn had thrashed on twitter and had them doxed. About a week passed and we did more digging and just found more shit, eventually it was agreed upon that Quinn was no longer important and we started focusing on other journalists who were supporting her. Then the whole "gamers are dead" articles popped up all over, in which out of no where Adam Baldwin appears and starts thrashing the idiots on twitters and coins the term gamer gate.

It helps if you actually know the story.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 11, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> If you wana talk about the rare instance when a woman cuts off a guys dick for cheating let's talk about institutionalized female genital mutilation.



Lets talk about abortion on top of that


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## Chelydra (Oct 11, 2014)

Subarashii said:


> If you wana talk about the rare instance when a woman cuts off a guys dick for cheating let's talk about institutionalized female genital mutilation.



Well considering FGM is illegal in most perhaps all civilized countries your argument does not hold water, since its not applicable here.


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## Frostman (Oct 12, 2014)

I lost faith in gaming journalism a loooong time ago. Back when there was a fiasco about Gamespot or IGN getting paid to write a good review. I rely mostly on "lets play". Journalist only have to tell me what is in the game and what is not in the game. I couldn't care less about their arbitrary numbers.

As for the feminist issue, the more people talk about the more things are likely to change.


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## blueblip (Oct 12, 2014)

Xiammes said:


> I can't be bothered to reply to everything, just going to cherry pick.


Then why bother at all 



> >sleeps with several video game journalists
> >cheats on her boyfriend with them
> >commits rape by her own definition
> 
> Yeah, is not like she was trying to get ahead.


Again, pure speculation. Come with real proof. And by your logic, everyone and anyone who slept around and/or cheated on their partner does so to gain something. Logic ftw 



> Quinn was no longer relevant to gamergate after the first week, she did everything in her power to make it about her and misogyny, her patron tripled due to this event, she didn't want to stop money flowing in.


Which still doesn't explain why the focus in every discussion about Gamergate boils down to her. I ask again: what does her being a shitty person have to do at all with the current shoddy state of the gaming press?

And it still doesn't explain the disproportionate reaction towards the irrelevant Quinn, and the tame reaction towards the people actually buying favourable reviews. What, are you all so scared of giant publishers that you force  yourselves to pick a soft target like Quinn? How very noble of you!



> Gamergate was a term coined by adam baldwin a few weeks in to the shitstorm, the entire foundation started when Quinn started censoring video's, which got people upset. It turned what would be a small shitstorm into something massive.
> 
> After IA original video, just about every website was censoring discussion about it, 30k comments were deleted off of one thread on reddit, 4chan was also getting heavily moderated about it. Then Quinn faked her own doxing to garner sympathy, this got even tumblr to turn against her.
> 
> ...


Which categorically proves that it IS all about Quinn! Again, get back to me when you've actually taken some meaningful action against the big publishers who have blatantly been manipulating game coverage since the friggin 80s. Do that, and you have a point. Nice try with the "you don't know us!" argument, though. Last I checked, Gamergate was co-opted by the movement itself. So I don't see the point in you telling me who came up it. It has no bloody relevance to anything! 

Continue to not do it though, and continue to prove me right in saying Gamergate supporters aren't actually interested in improving the gaming press, they're only interested in bashing soft targets, and quite possibly keeping women out of gaming  (see, I did what you did in your first line...leaps in logic without proof ARE fun!).


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## Seto Kaiba (Oct 12, 2014)

What the hell are you even talking about? Things HAVE been done that go far beyond Quinn, what do you think the article of this story is even about? How do you think it happened? You had to have not been following this matter at all.

You keep having people tell you, the story in itself indicates it, and the exodus of sponsors from gaming journalist websites says it as well but you keep acting like the only thing people have been focusing on is Zoe Quinn. This is getting ridiculous. The events were only possible because people contacted the advertisers and sponsors and made a reasoned argument, and provided proof of, conduct ill-fitting of these so-called gaming journalists and their websites.

Also, as I told you before regardless of if you think the men she slept with used their connections in her favor, the fact that she has a professional relationship with them and slept with them is more than enough to raise questions on professional integrity. Why are you insisting on acting so dishonest about this? It's not being sexist or prudish to bring this up. If this were in a sphere such as politics in relation to journalism this would rightly be a huge scandal, as it has been in the past. Because anyone even slightly acquainted with it is aware there's a potential conflict of interest there.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 12, 2014)

blueblip said:


> Then why bother at all
> 
> Again, pure speculation. Come with real proof. And by your logic, everyone and anyone who slept around and/or cheated on their partner does so to gain something. Logic ftw
> 
> ...





Seto Kaiba said:


> What the hell are you even talking about? Things HAVE been done that go far beyond Quinn, what do you think the article of this story is even about? How do you think it happened? You had to have not been following this matter at all.
> 
> You keep having people tell you, the story in itself indicates it, and the exodus of sponsors from gaming journalist websites says it as well but you keep acting like the only thing people have been focusing on is Zoe Quinn. This is getting ridiculous. The events were only possible because people contacted the advertisers and sponsors and made a reasoned argument, and provided proof of, conduct ill-fitting of these so-called gaming journalists and their websites.
> 
> Also, as I told you before regardless of if you think the men she slept with used their connections in her favor, the fact that she has a professional relationship with them and slept with them is more than enough to raise questions on professional integrity. Why are you insisting on acting so dishonest about this? It's not being sexist or prudish to bring this up. If this were in a sphere such as politics in relation to journalism this would rightly be a huge scandal, as it has been in the past. Because anyone even slightly acquainted with it is aware there's a potential conflict of interest there.



Best to not even bother Seto.


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## Xiammes (Oct 12, 2014)

> Again, pure speculation. Come with real proof. And by your logic, everyone and anyone who slept around and/or cheated on their partner does so to gain something. Logic ft



So its just a coincidence she cheated on her boyfriend with 5 guys who just happen to be video game journalists, and its also a coincidence that she is a indie video game developer.



> Which still doesn't explain why the focus in every discussion about Gamergate boils down to her. I ask again: what does her being a shitty person have to do at all with the current shoddy state of the gaming press?
> 
> And it still doesn't explain the disproportionate reaction towards the irrelevant Quinn, and the tame reaction towards the people actually buying favourable reviews. What, are you all so scared of giant publishers that you force yourselves to pick a soft target like Quinn? How very noble of you!



It boils down to her because she wants it too, look into the arcade thread, I can't even recall the last time she was mentioned. She was brought up here, because she was the spark that ignited the flame.

We have been trying to go after companies that pay for favorable reviews, however those guys didn't have a giant PR scheme to call all gamers misogynists, fat, lazy, neckbeards and gamers shouldn't be the target audience.




> Which categorically proves that it IS all about Quinn! Again, get back to me when you've actually taken some meaningful action against the big publishers who have blatantly been manipulating game coverage since the friggin 80s. Do that, and you have a point. Nice try with the "you don't know us!" argument, though. Last I checked, Gamergate was co-opted by the movement itself. So I don't see the point in you telling me who came up it. It has no bloody relevance to anything!



 Going against big publishers is harder, tracks are covered too well. Remember Geoff Keighley?  Dorito Pope? His ass and career was destroyed because of being blatantly paid off. The people we are targeting are lazy and sit on a pedestal, everything we found out has been publicly available, no one bothered picking the pieces together till you got a mass of pissed off people.

Where the hell are you still getting that it is all about quinn, I just described the first week, its been nearly 2 months since it started. Since then, the movement has tried to move away from her, the problem is that she is doing everything she can to be the center of attention, and thankfully we have moved away from her. 




> Continue to not do it though, and continue to prove me right in saying Gamergate supporters aren't actually interested in improving the gaming press, they're only interested in bashing soft targets, and quite possibly keeping women out of gaming



Continue to say strong shill.




> (see, I did what you did in your first line...leaps in logic without proof ARE fun!).



Fact 1: She is a indie video game developer, someone who needs publicized  
Fact 2: She cheated on her boyfriend with 5 different guys, something he had overwhelming evidence for, and she admitted to it
Fact 3: All of those guys have connections to video game industry, be they developers or "journalists"
Fact 4: Nathan Grayson did write a  highlighting Depression Quest(the game Zoe made) as a stand out game, this was during the time period that Zoe was in relationship with him.


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## wibisana (Oct 12, 2014)

Xiammes said:


> Fact 1: She is a indie video game developer, someone who needs publicized
> Fact 2: She cheated on her boyfriend with 5 different guys, something he had overwhelming evidence for, and she admitted to it
> Fact 3: All of those guys have connections to video game industry, be they developers or "journalists"
> Fact 4: Nathan Grayson did write a  highlighting Depression Quest(the game Zoe made) as a stand out game, this was during the time period that Zoe was in relationship with him.



Fact 5: The game suck dont deserve such publicity


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