# Katsuyu vs Asa Kujaku & Hirudora



## Seiji (Jul 5, 2013)

Whenever Gai vs Tsunade match ups are created some argue that the slug gets roasted if Gai uses Asa Kujaku or gets obliterated by Hirudora. 'N some say that she's invulnerable to phys'l attacks. Time to settle this shit.

1. Katsuyu vs Asa Kujaku

2. Katsuyu vs Hirudora

Will she survive those techniques or not?


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 5, 2013)

she wont survive either.

whether that means she'd be destroyed or only de-summoned from the shock is up to the imagination.


.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 5, 2013)

Siriυs said:


> Time to settle this shit.



I doubt it will ever be settled.



> 1. Katsuyu vs Asa Kujaku



She tanks it.

Katsuyu in mini-form withstood a more potent version of the cloak that evaporated a large snake and almost continued on to evaporate Orochimaru, forcing him to result to Oral Rebirth to avoid such a fate. You can make the clothes argument but it's both a silly and inapplicable one. She wasn't protected by his clothes because the cloak forms both over _and_ under his clothing (it radiates from his skin after all), meaning that she would be exposed to it whether she was on top of his sleeve or on the bottom of it. Clothes stay intact to avoid nudity- that's why FRS can disintegrate Human Realm but not Raikage's pants, because no nude character would be left behind. It's why Tsunade and Ay's entire bodies can be sent to the battlefield at a speed that rips things apart and yet not leave them completely naked. It's the same reason Mei's mist didn't burn off Sasuke's clothes despite burning Sasuke. As well as the reason Gai's _Asakujaku_ didn't leave the body used for Shoten Kisame naked even though it can evaporate tidal waves. There are aesthetic reasons to keep clothes intact, and those reasons are absent concerning chunks of slugs.



> 2. Katsuyu vs Hirudora



She tanks it again.

Katsuyu's body withstood a heightened _Shinra Tensei_ that leveled Konohagakure, Kisame withstood _Hirudora_. The absolute best it could hope to accomplish is cause her to split up, but even on the off chance that it can force such a thing that much is irrelevant because she'll just put herself back together and be perfectly fine.



> Will she survive those techniques or not?



Yes she will.


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## Krippy (Jul 5, 2013)

She dies horribly both scenarios


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## Kaiser (Jul 5, 2013)

Asa kujaku should roast Katsuyu, doubt Hirudora will have any effect though


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## trance (Jul 5, 2013)

Katsuyu tanked CT and CST in mini form, so yes, she survives.


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## Seiji (Jul 5, 2013)

The same ol' argument about Katsuyu tanking Naruto's corrosive chakra shit speaks about her durability. What's new? By that logic, Jiraiya's book that Naruto used to tnj Nagato which was hidden under his clothes is durable as fuck too. I don't even want to bring up Naruto's clothes.


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## Kai (Jul 5, 2013)

Asa Kujaku incinerates her. Splitting into smaller slugs would be the worst possible maneuver against such a technique.

Hirudora should be too much for her, but in Katsuyu's defense she should have an easier time against Hirudora than Asa Kujaku based on her design.

And FlamingRain, I thought it was obvious in our last discussion about Katsuyu that damaged clothes have nothing to do with outright nudity, and your stance on the issue doesn't leave any explanation on Jiraiya's book that was left unharmed by Kyuubi's cloak. Naruto's clothes, Katsuyu, and Jiraiya's book were all protected for one and the same reason. There is absolutely no reason to isolate Katsuyu there as a case for her own durability.


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## bleakwinter (Jul 5, 2013)

Siriυs said:


> The same ol' argument about Katsuyu tanking Naruto's corrosive chakra shit speaks about her durability. What's new? By that logic, Jiraiya's book that Naruto used to tnj Nagato which was hidden under his clothes is durable as fuck too. I don't even want to bring up Naruto's clothes.



It's because clothing and similar garments are often not factored in as they should be, else we'd have a manga of constantly naked characters running around. Mei's acid melted Susanoo, but left her own clothing perfectly in-tact. Surely you don't believe that Mei's clothes are now more durable than Susanoo?


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## Seiji (Jul 5, 2013)

'N Jiraiya's book? Non factor too?


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 5, 2013)

''similar garments'' = ''personal effects'' which is what the den-den slug effectively was, along w/ the book & his nin-tool bag, etc.

the book had a purpose, as did the slug & neither function was to _physically_ protect naruto...so theres no arguement, only dishonest misinterpretation bias.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 5, 2013)

Jiraiya's book gets the same treatment as Naruto's clothes. It was a non-factor that played no role in that fight, nor was it mentioned or seen at all whatsoever. Chances are the author just forgot about it.

Katsuyu on the other hand is outright known for her longevity and resilience, and played an important role in that fight. Furthermore, having crawled out of Naruto's collar and said " Phew, that was close " or something along those lines, its obvious she was affected by, or at least felt the Kyuubi's corrosive chakra to some extent. There is absolutely a reason to isolate this as a feat of durability to Katsuyu.​​


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## Kai (Jul 5, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Jiraiya's book gets the same treatment as Naruto's clothes. It was a non-factor that played no role in that fight, nor was it mentioned or seen at all whatsoever. Chances are the author just forgot about it.


The book was instrumental in Nagato's conversion to putting his faith in Naruto and subsequently reviving the fallen villagers.

Katsuyu and Jiraiya's book held respective plot specific purposes that protected them from having to deal with the corrosive chakra. It's really supposed to be a non factor yet Katsuyu gets wanked to extreme proportions after something that shouldn't even be considered is read in far too deeply.



			
				Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> Katsuyu on the other hand is outright known for her longevity and resilience, and played an important role in that fight. Furthermore, having crawled out of Naruto's collar and said " Phew, that was close " or something along those lines, its obvious she was affected by, or at least felt the Kyuubi's corrosive chakra to some extent. I think denying this as a testament of her durability would just be arguing for the sake of arguing.[/indent][/justify]


Even suggesting Katsuyu's durability needs to be considered because she voiced something is already reaching considering she is the only object out of the three items unharmed that can actually speak.

It doesn't mean anything.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 5, 2013)

she was relieved from the threat of CT anyway, not the chakra cloak. 
The latter of which was completely ignored by the author in that scene(It just wasn't necessary to show naruto get skin damage a 2nd time).


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## Seiji (Jul 5, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Jiraiya's book gets the same treatment as Naruto's clothes. It was a non-factor that played no role in that fight, nor was it mentioned or seen at all whatsoever. Chances are the author just forgot about it.
> 
> Katsuyu on the other hand is outright known for her longevity and resilience, and played an important role in that fight. Furthermore, having crawled out of Naruto's collar and said " Phew, that was close " or something along those lines, its obvious she was affected by, or at least felt the Kyuubi's corrosive chakra to some extent. There is absolutely a reason to isolate this as a feat of durability to Katsuyu.​​



Kishi forgot about the book?   Proof please. Nagato's conversion was obviously planned even before the invasion began 'n that book has to be brought up later as a tool for that. Knowing Kishi 'n his symbolisms, it's not surprising that such a thing is needed in that encounter and had to be protected.

@Kai: Wankers gonna wank.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 5, 2013)

Kai said:


> The book was instrumental in Nagato's conversion to putting his faith in Naruto and subsequently reviving the fallen villagers.



Which happened _after_ the Pein fight. It played no battle role, nor did it make an appearance prior to talk no jutsu. The book is apparel, just like his shoes or his kunai holster, I see no reason to make a big deal out of this.



> Katsuyu and Jiraiya's book held respective plot specific purposes that protected them from having to deal with the corrosive chakra. It's really supposed to be a non factor yet Katsuyu gets wanked to extreme proportions after something that shouldn't even be considered is read in far too deeply.



I can argue the exact same in reverse. You're reading way too much into this if you think Kishimoto gives a flying shit for what inanimate objects Naruto has in his pockets while he's in KN8. Katsuyu on the other hand is an organic creature who was already pretty tankish even before that fight, and who even showed signs of being affected by the heat. It is entirely feasible that she withstood burning damage whenever she withstood intense blunt force trauma from Chou Shinra Tensei, then again by Chibaku Tensei, and could use Daibunretsu to escape other forms of damage as well. If Naruto's collar was big enough to fit Sakura or Sasuke in it people wouldn't be disputing this as a durability feat - its the fact that's she's tiny and not human that seems to get under people's skin.



> Even suggesting Katsuyu's durability needs to be considered because she voiced something is already reaching considering she is the only object out of the three items unharmed that can actually speak.



She isn't an object though - she's a sentient being who had plot relevance _during that fight_. She's a tank who Tsunade actively used as a meat-shield. Her durability was already excellent, this feat was entirely feasible and convincing.



Siriυs said:


> Kishi forgot about the book?   Proof please. Nagato's conversion was obviously planned even before the invasion began 'n that book has to be brought up later as a tool for that. Knowing Kishi 'n his symbolisms, it's not surprising that such a thing is needed in that encounter and had to be protected.
> 
> @Kai: Wankers gonna wank.



I really don't know why you made a thread about this knowing very well what the responding argument was going to be, if you're just going to respond by head-bashing your keyboard with " omg wank herpaderpa " crap.​


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## Seiji (Jul 5, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I really don't know why you made a thread about this knowing very well what the responding argument was going to be, if you're just going to respond by head-bashing your keyboard with " omg wank herpaderpa " crap.[/indent][/justify]



Implying that I was only expecting Tsunade fans to be responding to this thread. Nah, I made this thread to know what the general consensus would be about this match up. Not my fault that Katsuyu tanking naruto's kyubi chakra while others are non factors because they don't support Katsuya's durability crap was brought up.


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## Kai (Jul 5, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Which happened _after_ the Pein fight. It played no battle role, nor did it make an appearance prior to talk no jutsu. The book is apparel, just like his shoes or his kunai holster, I see no reason to make a big deal out of this.


You think the book is simple apparel when it was the single greatest catalyst that allowed the villagers to be brought back to life?

Because of the book which illustrated Jiraiya's beliefs, there _was_ no more battle between Naruto and Nagato. Why must you equate Katsuyu and the book's reasons for plot relevance when the bottom line is, they both were protected by plot relevance?

Katsuyu was Naruto's handheld intelligence against Nagato's jutsus and the book allowed Naruto and Nagato to relate with one another. Katsuyu was under similar protection the book was and not durability fallibly celebrated by her fans.



			
				Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> I can argue the exact same in reverse. You're reading way too much into this if you think Kishimoto gives a flying shit for what inanimate objects Naruto has in his pockets while he's in KN8. Katsuyu on the other hand is an organic creature who was already pretty tankish even before that fight, and who even showed signs of being affected by the heat. It is entirely feasible that she withstood burning damage whenever she withstood intense blunt force trauma from Chou Shinra Tensei, then again by Chibaku Tensei, and could use Daibunretsu to escape other forms of damage as well. If Naruto's collar was big enough to fit Sakura or Sasuke in them people wouldn't be disputing this as a durability feat - its the fact that's she's tiny and not human that seems to get under people's skin.


Katsuyu has not shown any signs or said anything of being affected by the heat of Kyuubi's chakra. She sighs of relief "Phew! I thought I was a goner..", which doesn't have to do with the kyuubi's cloak any more than it has to do with in regards to Nagato's Chibaku Tensei. I said claims about Katsuyu's durability are read far too deeply because assumptions such as the one you just made are thrown out without merit.



			
				Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> She isn't an object though - she's a sentient being who had plot relevance _during that fight_. She's a tank who Tsunade actively used as a meat-shield. Her durability was already excellent, this feat was entirely feasible and convincing.[/indent][/justify]


I'm not arguing against the idea of whether Katsuyu can or can not withstand CST or the Kyuubi's chakra, but in order to argue in favor of those feats you need to argue from a different set of data because her unharmed state along with other _plot relevant_ materials does not indicate anything about her natural durability.


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## Veracity (Jul 5, 2013)

@Kai

What are you blabbering on about? Your comparing an inanimate object to a summoning that's made to tank attacks. No matter how important you say this book is, facts are, it's still a damn book. It holds the same durability properties as clothes. Basically, nothing can hurt that book. If The Kyuubi cloak has been shown to burn or heat opponents or objects, then Katsuyu gained her self a defensive feat.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 5, 2013)

^because the den-den mushi was there to provide defense for naruto right? 

and the whole katsyuu as a ultimate defense is a complete myth

its the snakes that are characterized by durability & def. burrowing.

slugs are for healing aids & intelligence channeling

and toads for mobility & offensive utility

manda 1.0 still has the best durability feat, for example.

katsyuu wasn't made to/specialize in tanking attacks


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## Kai (Jul 5, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> @Kai
> 
> What are you blabbering on about? Your comparing an inanimate object to a summoning that's made to tank attacks. No matter how important you say this book is, facts are, it's still a damn book. It holds the same durability properties as clothes. Basically, nothing can hurt that book. If The Kyuubi cloak has been shown to burn or heat opponents or objects, then Katsuyu gained her self a defensive feat.


Nothing can hurt that book because of its plot relevance in regards to the arc, not because its just an inanimate object. An inanimate object like Jiraiya's book has infinitely more durability than inanimate objects like rocks or buildings in the environment.

Why would Katsuyu gain her own durability feat if she was _underneath_ plot relevant materials that were unharmed themselves?


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## Veracity (Jul 5, 2013)

Kai said:


> Nothing can hurt that book because of its plot relevance in regards to the arc, not because its just an inanimate object. An inanimate object like Jiraiya's book has infinitely more durability than inanimate objects like rocks or buildings in the environment.
> 
> Why would Katsuyu gain her own durability feat if she was _underneath_ plot relevant materials that were unharmed themselves?



Yes, plot could have came up with many different ways to not harm the book, if the book could get harmed by the cloak. Hell, they could have had a clone of Naruto run off and hide the book. Facts are, inanimate objects like clothes, scrolls, bags, and yes even books dont have durability levels. They are damn near invincible. Plot or not, the book wouldn't have been effected any way. However Katsuyu(if she was normal) would have been instantly fried. But she wasn't, because she a fucking invincible slug.


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## Rocky (Jul 5, 2013)

Nothing tanked CST in the Manga. There was absolutely nothing left but dirt at the epicenter of the blast, where Naruto entered.


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## ueharakk (Jul 5, 2013)

i don't think her splitting will do much against burn damage.

She should take pretty decent damage from asa kakuju, but i don't think it'll take her out.

AT is probably the same or a little worse.  If we assume it destroyed madara's susanoo, she is going to be very drained after taking the blast that will completely envelope her.  Thus again, splitting shouldn't really do much, remember that her performance against CST was due to tsunade channeling her chakra into katsuya, when tsunade isn't channeling a lot of chakra into her, we get things like chapter 635 where her abilities go down.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 5, 2013)

villagers were killed in the blast as well


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## Bonly (Jul 5, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Jiraiya's book gets the same treatment as Naruto's clothes. It was a non-factor that played no role in that fight, nor was it mentioned or seen at all whatsoever. Chances are the author just forgot about it.
> 
> Katsuyu on the other hand is outright known for her longevity and resilience, and played an important role in that fight. Furthermore, having crawled out of Naruto's collar and said " Phew, that was close " or something along those lines, its obvious she was affected by, or at least felt the Kyuubi's corrosive chakra to some extent. There is absolutely a reason to isolate this as a feat of durability to Katsuyu.​​


 
When Tsunade gave Naruto the small Katsuyu, Pa told her to hide in Naruto's pocket. If Katsuyu is hiding inside of Naruto's clothes which get protected from said  corrosive chakra(which has only done anything to fodder snakes IIRC) then how can you act as if its something good yet blow it off for Jiraiya's book which was inside the same clothes that Katsuyu was inside of and was protected? If you're to think Kishi just forgot about the book then could the same be said for Katsuyu as well?


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## FlamingRain (Jul 6, 2013)

Kai said:


> And FlamingRain, I thought it was obvious in our last discussion about Katsuyu that damaged clothes have nothing to do with outright nudity, and your stance on the issue doesn't leave any explanation on Jiraiya's book that was left unharmed by Kyuubi's cloak. Naruto's clothes, Katsuyu, and Jiraiya's book were all protected for one and the same reason. There is absolutely no reason to isolate Katsuyu there as a case for her own durability.



We never reached any agreement on anything in our last discussion, though. You stated that the feat wasn't valid as Katsuyu was protected because she was beneath Naruto's clothes which were mysteriously resistant to the cloak, I still disagreed because Katsuyu would still be in contact with the cloak itself because it tears off all of Naruto's skin and radiates outwards (so underneath the clothes is still being affected). (Then you didn't respond back ) As for the book, Mabui held doubts that _Kages_ could survive _Tenso no Jutsu_ and yet inanimate objects go through the thing just fine, and again (Ay and) Tsunade's very own clothes (inanimate) took zero damage while she herself was harmed somewhat. What's the difference? It isn't that fabric is more plot relevant, it's that Tsunade is organic, which doesn't apply to the book. You'll just have to excuse me for not considering clothing and other related inanimate objects a factor against any feat of organic objects here or anywhere else, because these kinds of explanations simply don't sit well with me, and I don't think _any_ contention centered on the condition of clothing or a book ever will succeed in convincing me otherwise. 

Regardless of any of that, though, I still doubt _Asakujaku_ would actually threaten her. It has never incinerated anyone and hasn't burned anyone's clothes after lighting them on fire either as a matter of fact. Consider that _Asakujaku_'s heat is the result of _friction_ produced by the insane speed of the flurry of punches, and also that the friction produced by Gai's arms is still nothing compared to what would be produced by being zipped somewhere at lightspeed, which Katsuyu said she didn't mind because she would be just fine. Tsunade came out of the transfer without any more burns than what the Shoten that Gai used _Asakujaku_ on suffered, so I'm certain Katsuyu can deal anyway. I might actually skip that altogether and just claim she pulls a Juubi and segments off any burned/burning divisions.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jul 6, 2013)

If you beat Katsuya, or any boss summon with a torch, I doubt it's going to hurt her.  That's about how hot I rate morning peacock punches.  The impact damage is what kills people, but that won't do anything to her because blunt force is worthless on jelly.  Same for tiger blast cannons.


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## Kai (Jul 6, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> We never reached any agreement on anything in our last discussion, though. You stated that the feat wasn't valid as Katsuyu was protected because she was beneath Naruto's clothes which were mysteriously resistant to the cloak, I still disagreed because Katsuyu would still be in contact with the cloak itself because it tears off all of Naruto's skin and radiates outwards (so underneath the clothes is still being affected). (Then you didn't respond back )


I'm talking about the part where damaged clothes have nothing to do with outright nudity. Kishi doesn't have an issue drawing damage, ripped clothing or even Naruto with his shirt off. Take this recent cover as an example.



Futhermore, Katsuyu hid in Naruto's pocket and was plot relevant as Naruto's intel against Pain. Honestly the situation appears to be no different than the atypical fairy or <insert intelligence> on the hero's shoulder giving out advice that can never be harmed and avoids all damage. 



			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> As for the book, Mabui held doubts that _Kages_ could survive _Tenso no Jutsu_ and yet inanimate objects go through the thing just fine, and again (Ay and) Tsunade's very own clothes (inanimate) took zero damage while she herself was harmed somewhat. What's the difference? It isn't that fabric is more plot relevant, it's that Tsunade is organic, which doesn't apply to the book. You'll just have to excuse me for not considering clothing and other related inanimate objects a factor against any feat of organic objects here or anywhere else, because these kinds of explanations simply don't sit well with me, and I don't think _any_ contention centered on the condition of clothing or a book ever will succeed in convincing me otherwise.


There is no such rule about inanimate objects being invincible. Mabui outright stated that her Tenso no jutsu was _designed_ for inanimate objects.



Inanimate objects are destroyed constantly at a whim unless they hold the necessary plot relevance that allows them to stay. It's reading far too deep into Katsuyu's "durability" if you consider her plot relevance as Naruto's handheld intelligence, who was underneath plot relevant materials that were also protected from the kyuubi's chakra. In this case, plot relevance would determine more than what is animate or inanimate.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 6, 2013)

omg the tags on this thread...

Well i think that neither of these moves can beat/kill her outright but MP should harm her/make her think about her situation as dangerous or painful or something. The flames themselves could make a tidal wave vanish after all...however the punches themselves would do little damage even if on fire due to katsuyu's composition.

Hirudora would not kill her seeing as kisame survived while still being conscious. Yes he is a monster with abnormal physical prowess but to say he is more durable than a giant slug with no skeleton to crush and the ability to split that can null most form of attacks...yeah nah. It guy uses it like he did against kisame she would be blown up but just fine albeit maybe in pieces. If guy use it like he did against madara(assuming she gets caught off guard) she just splits after the initial bite and possibly get the majority of herself away while the air blast flies off and blows up whatever pieces of her it still has.

But anyway she survive both of these techs...taking out katsuyu with taijutsu is fools gold. I think kishimoto will make her weakness water techs.


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## ShinobisWill (Jul 6, 2013)

I think people forget that Kisame survived and was not completely obliterated by Hirudora, and this is Gai's strongest attack we're talking about here.

Katsuyu, imo, just splits into small slugs with both attacks and gets damaged, but not taken out. Probably can reform afterwards.

The best way to deal with summons, if you don't have them, is avoid it and take out the user. Both Kakashi -and- Gai were seen avoiding fully formed Bijuu (who had sharingan, no less).


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## Jad (Jul 6, 2013)

ShinobisWill said:


> I think people forget that Kisame survived and was not completely obliterated by Hirudora, and this is Gai's strongest attack we're talking about here.
> 
> Katsuyu, imo, just splits into small slugs with both attacks and gets damaged, but not taken out. Probably can reform afterwards.
> 
> The best way to deal with summons, if you don't have them, is avoid it and take out the user. Both Kakashi -and- Gai were seen avoiding fully formed Bijuu (who had sharingan, no less).



I don't think it's fair to say Kisame got the full brunt of the attack. For one Gai heard before hand to capture Kisame from Aoba. His Hirudora also had to pass through an opposing force, Giant bullet Sharks, which I believe lowered it's power. On top of that, we saw with Hirudora against Madara's Sasunoo, that it bites down on the opponent, THAN drags it while growing smaller to the point it explodes. That didn't happen against Kisame which I think didn't do the attack justice. I think with all those three points, Kisame was able to survive on top of his great and underestimated durability. That being said I am pretty sure you will disagree, but I tried. This post has nothing to do with Katsuya though, I thought I just throw my opinion in case you MAY change your mind.


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## LostSelf (Jul 6, 2013)

KN6 hasn't shown corrosive chakra cloack and it wasn't a factor in this fight. Katsuyu in Naruto was just meant to give information. Since KN6 grabbed his own necklace and didn't even burn, i bet Kishi would've made the collar burn if he took Naruto's corrosive cloack as important here. But he did not.

This "The book falls into the same category" is like convenient arguments to prove something. I can say the same about Katsuyu. And no, *Katsuyu did not talked about Naruto's corrosive cloack. She was talking about CT. Let's get serious.*

I don't know why featwise, Katsuyu beats Sasori, Hidan and Minato, but we get into shonen jump examples when we talk about that cloack.

To be honest, i do know. But oh well.

OT: MP turns her into fire. She should survive Hirudora. If she's not divided in small parts and the attack doesn't cover her completely.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 6, 2013)

Kai said:


> I'm talking about the part where damaged clothes have nothing to do with outright nudity. Kishi doesn't have an issue drawing damage, ripped clothing or even Naruto with his shirt off.
> 
> Inanimate objects are destroyed constantly at a whim unless they hold the necessary plot relevance that allows them to stay.



Outright nudity was not the point I was making, it was simply what some of those things would logically result in since the entirety of the target was under the effect. My point was that Kishimoto also has no problem drawing people taking damage from jutsu that don't affect their clothes *at all*. Sasuke's _Ryuka no Jutsu_ didn't burn the top of Orochimaru's shirt, Deidara's explosions didn't blast away Gaara's or Sasuke's shirts, FRS disintegrated Kakuzu's masks but left the clothes on his original body undamaged (the _only_ damage having been where the masks themselves tore out of Kakuzu's back), Mei's corrosive mist did not so much as singe her own or Sasuke's clothes despite melting the Zetsu in the same area as herself and Sasuke's own skin. They didn't have to be drawn completely nude, their clothes remained completely unscathed while the organic stuff around said clothes was damaged. We already knew Naruto's clothes stayed intact with the shroud when we learned the very same shroud was corrosive enough to peel off his skin and vaporize large snakes, organic things, unlike his clothes or any kunai he had on him. We can probably go back and forth with this all week, but I'm still unconvinced by this argument. In addition to that, I think Katsuyu survives _Asakujaku_ regardless of this, so I don't think there's much of a point in sustaining its duration.


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## Veo (Jul 6, 2013)

To be honest, I can see her tanking most of the attacks we have seen so far in the serie bar Amaterasu, C4, Bijuudama and Kamui.


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## Mithos (Jul 7, 2013)

The fire from Asa Kujaku didn't incinerate Shouten Kisame [1], so I don't expect the flames to roast Katsuyu to death. If she catches fire, she can separate the top layer of her skin with very small clones and remove the fire from herself without sacrificing much of her body. If may hurt her, but it has very low chances of killing her. 

Hirudora has even less of a chance of defeating her. Blunt force, physical damage is ineffective against Katsuyu because of her body. At the most, it'll force her apart and send her a lot of her clones flying - but that's about it. 

Verdict: She survives Asa Kujaku by sacrificing minor pieces of herself, at the worst; she survives Hirudora's bunt-force damage with few problems.


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## LostSelf (Jul 8, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> *The fire from Asa Kujaku didn't incinerate Shouten Kisame [1], so I don't expect the flames to roast Katsuyu to death.* If she catches fire, she can separate the top layer of her skin with very small clones and remove the fire from herself without sacrificing much of her body. If may hurt her, but it has very low chances of killing her.
> .



Link removed

Link removed


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## FlamingRain (Jul 8, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Link removed
> 
> Link removed



I'm not sure he'd stay on fire for long anyway.

The flames tend to go out shortly after on anything that isn't Amaterasu (1), (2).

I'm like certain _Asakujaku_'s mainly reliant upon concussive damage.


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## LostSelf (Jul 8, 2013)

Flames still there [2].

And probably until it burned all of the snake's skin.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 8, 2013)

I said _shortly_, not immediately. The flames do not remain for long.

And I would not say that it did- we just saw Manda's skin left behind after the flames on top of it had begun to disappear.


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## LostSelf (Jul 8, 2013)

Where we see the skin again? 

The flames engulfed all of Kisame's body, i don't see it disappearing like nothing. it seems that flames created by chakra disappears shortly after burning their target (Something that would still be in effect if it engulfs full Katsuyu as the target). But MP's flames aren't chakra.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 8, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Where we see the skin again?



We don't need to see it again, we _already saw_ that when the flames regressed skin was left behind. That means they didn't incinerate it, unless you want me to believe they re-ignited off panel?



> The flames engulfed all of Kisame's body, i don't see it disappearing like nothing. it seems that flames created by chakra disappears shortly after burning their target (Something that would still be in effect if it engulfs full Katsuyu as the target). But MP's flames aren't chakra.



They'll disappear the same way whether it be all of his body or a portion of it.

I'm not sure why there would be a difference between chakra and non-chakra flames, honestly.



Hey, I'm about to go out of town again in less than 2 hours (this time on vacation, not a track meet :33). So I won't be back in this thread for a bit.


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## LostSelf (Jul 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> We don't need to see it again, we _already saw_ that when the flames regressed skin was left behind. That means they didn't incinerate it, unless you want me to believe they re-ignited off panel?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, no. There's a good size of the flames in panel, big enough if we compare it with Gamabunta. The part of the flames that disappeared probably is the one that didn't landed on the snake. The skin is still burning.

We don't see the skin anymore after that unless i'm missing something. It was or completely burned or Kishi didn't bother to show it again. I see no reason to believe the flames disappeared out of nothing, though.

Chakra based Katon has dispersed quick or right after it has burned the target, leaving no sign of fire. However, Asura's explosions were still burning the village [1], [2], [3] (This one can be a tree as well), [4], [5] (I don't think this is a tree), [6].

Have a very nice vacation and meet the love of your life there .


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## FlamingRain (Jul 8, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Actually, no. There's a good size of the flames in panel, big enough if we compare it with Gamabunta. The part of the flames that disappeared probably is the one that didn't landed on the snake. The skin is still burning.
> 
> We don't see the skin anymore after that unless i'm missing something. It was or completely burned or *Kishi didn't bother to show it again*. I see no reason to believe the flames disappeared out of nothing, though.



Bolded is what I would bet on. Surely you aren't telling me that _Gamayu Endan_'s flames, which are several times larger than Manda, failed to encompass the entirety of his shed skin when it got hit? That makes no sense, where do you think that smoke on top of it came from if that part wasn't hit? We see in the bottom panels that when Jiraiya notes that it was cast off skin that took the blast, there are no longer any flames on the upper section of his body or his head- but the shed skin was still there, meaning it wasn't incinerated. The lower section of it should have been in a similar condition once those remaining flames farther down disappeared.



> Chakra based Katon has dispersed quick or right after it has burned the target, leaving no sign of fire. However, Asura's explosions were still burning the village [1], [2], [3] (This one can be a tree as well), [4], [5] (I don't think this is a tree), [6].



Asura's explosions are produced and powered by chakra tho, and we have another explosives person in Deidara who doesn't ignite continuous flames with his jutsus.  And I don't think that smoke is necessarily indicative of continuing flames, large impacts in general (Rasengan, super strength hits, etc) cause that same effect. Which is why I always interpreted that as the remaining paths continuing to rampage around Konoha. 



> Have a very nice vacation and meet the love of your life there .


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## LostSelf (Jul 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Bolded is what I would bet on. Surely you aren't telling me that _Gamayu Endan_'s flames, which are several times larger than Manda, failed to encompass the entirety of his shed skin when it got hit? That makes no sense, where do you think that smoke on top of it came from if that part wasn't hit? We see in the bottom panels that when Jiraiya notes that it was cast off skin that took the blast, there are no longer any flames on the upper section of his body or his head- but the shed skin was still there, meaning it wasn't incinerated. The lower section of it should have been in a similar condition once those remaining flames farther down disappeared.



I thought Manda survived the attack shedding it's skin before it was completely burned? Similar to how Sasuke did with Amaterasu. That katon surely was bigger than Manda. And if it was, part of the flames didn't hit the snake, some part of the fire was wasted because it was bigger. 

I only see Manda shredding to escape the burn and the flames still burning the skin until it was nothing because i've no reason to believe the flames disappeared because of nothing. That is, of course, if i'm missing something, because as much as i know, the skin is not seen again. 



> Asura's explosions are produced and powered by chakra tho, and we have another explosives person in Deidara who doesn't ignite continuous flames with his jutsus.  And I don't think that smoke is necessarily indicative of continuing flames, large impacts in general (Rasengan, super strength hits, etc) cause that same effect. Which is why I always interpreted that as the remaining paths continuing to rampage around Konoha.



The missiles are powered by chakra, not the explosions it generate. Deidara's bombs look a bit diferent and it seems he doesn't use fire in them (It's doton, though).

If you see, the smoke coming is darker than normal. The kind of smoke rasengan creates is dirt, if i'm not mistaken. The smoke was still seen after Asura was killed and he was the only path exploding things.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 8, 2013)

Jad said:


> I don't think it's fair to say Kisame got the full brunt of the attack. For one Gai heard before hand to capture Kisame from Aoba. His Hirudora also had to pass through an opposing force, Giant bullet Sharks, which I believe lowered it's power. On top of that, we saw with Hirudora against Madara's Sasunoo, that it bites down on the opponent, THAN drags it while growing smaller to the point it explodes. That didn't happen against Kisame which I think didn't do the attack justice. I think with all those three points, Kisame was able to survive on top of his great and underestimated durability. That being said I am pretty sure you will disagree, but I tried. This post has nothing to do with Katsuya though, I thought I just throw my opinion in case you MAY change your mind.



Of course it is. Gai said nothing of holding back. He used it and Yamato realized exactly what jutsu it was. Gai said it was a one hit instant kill technique. There was no holding back. Explosions underwater are enhanced several times the normal level. If anything the jutsu was a lot stronger than normal. Sometimes FRS slices through, sometimes, it explodes on contact, sometimes it slices and keeps going before it explodes. The jutsu do not have to act the same way each time.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 8, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> I thought Manda survived the attack shedding it's skin before it was completely burned? Similar to how Sasuke did with Amaterasu. That katon surely was bigger than Manda. And if it was, part of the flames didn't hit the snake, some part of the fire was wasted because it was bigger.
> 
> I only see Manda shredding to escape the burn and the flames still burning the skin until it was nothing because i've no reason to believe the flames disappeared because of nothing. That is, of course, if i'm missing something, because as much as i know, the skin is not seen again.



I'm talking about how the skin he shed was not incinerated. If it didn't incinerate the shed skin it wouldn't have incinerated Manda himself. I meant the entirety of the shed skin was hit. (1) the bottom panels reveal that the flames left the shed skin behind. Jiraiya is viewing the head and upper body looming with smoke coming off of it after it is no longer actually covered in flames. It was not incinerated, and the remainder of the shed skin would likely have been in the same condition after the remainder of the flames went out shortly after.



> The missiles are powered by chakra, not the explosions it generate. Deidara's bombs look a bit diferent and it seems he doesn't use fire in them (It's doton, though).
> 
> If you see, the smoke coming is darker than normal. The kind of smoke rasengan creates is dirt, if i'm not mistaken. The smoke was still seen after Asura was killed and he was the only path exploding things.



The explosions are generated by something created by chakra, which means that the explosions would also be chakra based just like anything else because of where their origin lies. And I'm pretty sure this (2) involves fire.

The other paths were trampling things left and right. . . . .


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## Jamiez (Jul 9, 2013)

Flaming Rain, do you use the Databook? Because Morning Peacock's entry says "it it burns the enemy until there is nothing".

Anyways, Gai's Morning Peacock vaporized a Tsunami wave of water in one panel. Don't see Katsuya taking that much damage and living.

Alas, people will only take Gai's technique seriously if it defeats the Juubi itself, anything else and it's not worth talking about...


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## FlamingRain (Jul 9, 2013)

Jamiez said:


> Flaming Rain, do you use the Databook? Because Morning Peacock's entry says "it it burns the enemy until there is nothing".



Sometimes. . .but the databook doesn't say that. "Nothing remains, but to get burned and die" (what it actually says) doesn't mean death because of incineration, it just means the victim can't retaliate. The initial kick could kill a regular person, so once again I'm gonna go ahead and say the actual killing part is the concussive force and the victim just gets burned a lot in the process. It does not turn the victim to ashes.


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## Jamiez (Jul 9, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Sometimes. . .but the databook doesn't say that. "Nothing remains, but to get burned and die" (what it actually says) doesn't mean death because of incineration, it just means the victim can't retaliate. The initial kick could kill a regular person, so once again I'm gonna go ahead and say the actual killing part is the concussive force and the victim just gets burned a lot in the process. It does not turn the victim to ashes.



You know Hiruzen's Katon in the Databook says it turns people into ashes yet it couldn't get passed a regular Waterwall by Tobirama that has nothing on the scale of Kisame's Tsunami wave of sharks that Gai vaporized in one panel.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 9, 2013)

Jamiez said:


> You know Hiruzen's Katon in the Databook says it turns people into ashes yet it couldn't get passed a regular Waterwall by Tobirama that has nothing on the scale of Kisame's Tsunami wave of sharks that Gai vaporized in one panel.



Okay. . .?

A few ways to look at this. . .just three for now.

One, quantity =/= quality. Kisame's wave may have been bigger, but for all we know Tobirama's wall is still "superior" (which frankly wouldn't surprise me since he's got a legendary mastery of Suiton). If Tobirama's water wall was way colder than Kisame's it could hold up against hotter assaults. It wouldn't be surprising if Hiruzen's Katon is hot enough to also vaporize the wave provided it was wide enough.

Two, that might have something to do with Hiruzen's disadvantaged chakra nature, where Gai faced no such disadvantage because his flames aren't created from chakra.

Three, "_the_ enemy" doesn't necessarily entail "_any_ enemy", if Hiruzen could turn a fodder to ashes (he probably could) the databook holds true even if Hiruzen cannot turn another, particularly durable, enemy to ashes as well. The databook claims _Katon: Goryuka no Jutsu_ can accomplish much the same thing but it left Itachi's arm intact after connecting. Because Itachi isn't fodder.


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