# Minato(no Hirashin) vs Itachi(no MS)



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 10, 2015)

Location : Shouten Itachi vs Kakashi & Co
Distance : 10 meters
Mindset : IC
Knowledge : Reputation only
Restrictions : Like the title suggests, Minato doesn't have Hirashin, Itachi doesn't have MS.

Conditions : Itachi is healthy(no random performance drops), Minato is alive(no Kyuubi).


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## Ersa (Nov 10, 2015)

Itachi has reflexes superior to initial EMS Sasuke and the latter went on to react to Juubito who is leagues faster then BM Naruto so Minato stands zero chance of blitzing him without Hiraishin here. In terms of actual speed feats without Hiraishin, Itachi's blitzing of B is just as impressive as anything Minato has shown.

Taijutsu wise they are fairly even with Itachi clashing against KCM Naruto and SM Kabuto quite comfortably. Intelligence wise, Minato is no slouch but Itachi has him outgunned here. Tobirama questioned his intellect which leads to believe he might not be on par with a 5 intelligence, Hokage-wisdom wielding Uchiha with arguably the best on the fly analysis in the series.

Itachi should win by playing it safe with clones feints, crows and catching Minato in a genjutsu eventually.


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## Itachі (Nov 10, 2015)

I'd give it to Itachi more times than not. Itachi can make use of crows to obstruct Minato's vision, he's very effective with Bunshin and he's good at creating openings via Genjutsu. If Minato had FTG I'd give it to him but without FTG, I think Itachi takes it. Itachi's less reliant on MS when it comes to some opponents because Genjutsu doesn't require firepower, it requires trickery and skill.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 10, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Itachi has reflexes superior to initial EMS Sasuke and the latter went on to react to Juubito who is leagues faster then BM Naruto so Minato stands zero chance of blitzing him without Hiraishin here. In terms of actual speed feats without Hiraishin, Itachi's blitzing of B is just as impressive as anything Minato has shown.
> 
> Taijutsu wise they are fairly even with Itachi clashing against KCM Naruto and SM Kabuto quite comfortably. Intelligence wise, Minato is no slouch but Itachi has him outgunned here. Tobirama questioned his intellect which leads to believe he might not be on par with a 5 intelligence, Hokage-wisdom wielding Uchiha with arguably the best on the fly analysis in the series.
> 
> Itachi should win by playing it safe with clones feints and catching Minato in a genjutsu eventually.



My thoughts exactly.

Also rep only knowledge would catch Minato off guard here, as he has no way of knowing how insanely good Itachi is @ emplyoing genjutsu and his methods.


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## Ersa (Nov 10, 2015)

Just adding on to this.

This guy

is not outsmarting this guy

*Spoiler*: __


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## Hachibi (Nov 10, 2015)

Itachi is less restricted than Minato (he still can use Genjutsu while Minato doesn't have his greatest weapon (FTG)

Itachi win more time than not


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 10, 2015)

Minato gets demolished.

  His speed and reflexes are only par with Base Raikage's and Taka Sasuke who's far slower and less reflexive than Itachi reacted to V1 Raikage's speed at the last second. Itachi's also an expert at planning moves in advance as shown against Hebi Sasuke and SM Kabuto, both of which had viable counters against his arsenal. Furthermore, Itachi's hand seal speed not only outsped 2 skilled users with Precognition, but also outsped SM Kabuto's perception as he couldn't perceive the seals Itachi was making and thus, couldn't determine if his jutsu was a Suiton or a Katon, so Itachi's capable of pressuring Minato with clone feints or mid-range ninjutsu and will capitalize on any opportunity he can get to disarm Minato.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 10, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Just adding on to this.
> 
> This guy
> 
> ...



Based Itachi


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Itachi was clashing CQC against KCM Naruto who is limited at Bee's speed and who doesn't wants to fight , and he was on par with SM Kabuto while Minato's striking speed is so fast that he through up a Kunai 30m enter SM , teleport and beginning striking before even MS Kakashi can use Kamui , he also showed that he can instantly kill Obito without phasing , so I would say Minato is one or two cuts above .

The other point is that Minato's Shunshin is much faster than SM Naruto's (their feats against full and half Kurama) , while Itachi is fast but not extremely like the Hokage .

Plus , Minato can summon toads and Bunta unlike his vs Kakashi thread , if we add that , then Itachi is just fucked .

3TS Genjutsu or lower level are useless against someone with Minato's synapse transmission speed .

*Minato+Bunta>>Itachi*


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## Ersa (Nov 10, 2015)

He can just genjutsu Gamabunta, lol.

And why the fuck is Minato summoning Bunta based on rep from an Uchiha?


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## Mercurial (Nov 10, 2015)

MS restricted Itachi >> Hiraishin restricted Minato.

As said in the Kakashi vs Minato thread, Kakashi is a complete and well rounded shinobi with great base arts and stats and Mangekyo as a trump card on top of that, while Minato is sure a great shinobi, but Hiraishin isn't his trump card, is literally his bread and butter. For Itachi vs Minato is more or less the same, Itachi's stats and base techniques/abilities aren't as good as Kakashi's (War Arc version) but they are definitely enough to deal with a Hiraishinless Minato. Minato is faster but not that it will be an issue, they are more or less equally smarter, but genjutsu and ninjutsu clearly seal the deal in favour of Itachi. The only thing that makes me doubt is Itachi's low stamina, but without having the MS draining his chakra quickly he should be able to go well.

Inb4 Minato wins with his SM that he himself thinks is shitty and never thought to use in battle.

Not only Deva Path, but even Preta Path was dancing and running circles around Gamabunta avoiding his attacks. I don't see any problem for Itachi do dodge Gamabunta and mindraping him with Sharingan genjutsu, forcing Minato to release the summon.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 10, 2015)

Bunta is a non factor here. He can't keep up with someone like Itachi, he is too damn slow. Also Minato is a mobile fighter, and he doesn't have a combo with Gama, so I doubt he and Gama can accomplish anything together.  And if Bunta becomes such a nuisance like some people think he would be, then Itachi would just control him with genjutsu and make him jump to another continent or some shit. 

And genjutsu being useless against Minato is nothing but fanfiction.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Non MS Itachi isn't doing shit to Bunta , he can maybe place a Genjutsu but Minato will just Kai him .



> And genjutsu being useless against Minato is nothing but fanfiction.


It's the oppost , 3TS Itachi placing a Genjusu on someone like Minato or RCM Raikage is just a fanfiction .


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## Itachі (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> 3TS Genjutsu or lower level are useless against someone with Minato's synapse transmission speed




Dude...

What?


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## Ersa (Nov 10, 2015)

I'm just waiting for the idiot who thinks base Minato is faster then Juubito.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Non MS Itachi isn't doing shit to Bunta , he can maybe place a Genjutsu but Minato will just Kai him .



Minato can't instantly know what is going on. Itachi can control bunta, and just make him shake minato off. And then like I said, make him run all the way back to a different zone. As we know, Itachi can control shinobi from very long range, outside the range of sensors.

Whats Minato going to do ? Run after bunta ?


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

Minato knows that powerful Uchihas can use powerful Genjutsu , sorry but he is full aware and he can easily counter it with a simple Kai .

And Itachi can never avoid both Minato and Bunta's attacks at once .


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## Mercurial (Nov 10, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I'm just waiting for the idiot who thinks base Minato is faster then Juubito.



Well trolling and ignorance are well known on these lands, but that's actually hilarious, I would be amazed in reading someone suggesting that base Minato is faster than Juubito since KCM Minato was blitzed by Juubito...


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## Itachі (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato knows that powerful Uchihas can use powerful Genjutsu , sorry but he is full aware and he can easily counter it with a simple Kai .
> 
> And Itachi can never avoid both Minato and Bunta's attacks at once .



Except he won't be able to Kai unless he knows that he's in a Genjutsu, he's not going to realise straight away and Kai out before Itachi slits his throat. Itachi could even get Gamabunta to stab himself with that giant ass sword of his.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 10, 2015)

Minato is still faster, and with clones and sensing he's not going to fall behind or fall for tricks.  His shunshin is still better than Tobiramas, who used to be the fastest man alive.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 10, 2015)

If Itachi attempted to trap Bunta in a Genjutsu , Minato will have enough time to kill him , it's a simple suicide .


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## Mercurial (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> If Itachi attempted to trap Bunta in a Genjutsu , Minato will have enough time to kill him , it's a simple suicide .



A clone is enough to mindrape Bunta.


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## Hachibi (Nov 10, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I'm just waiting for the idiot who thinks base Minato is faster then Juubito.



Hussain think Base Minato > 8th Gate Gai

There you go


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## Ersa (Nov 10, 2015)

Hussain transcends human understanding.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 10, 2015)

Not really sure how Minato's supposed to win.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 10, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Minato is still faster, and with clones and sensing he's not going to fall behind or fall for tricks.  His shunshin is still better than Tobiramas, who used to be the fastest man alive.



 Kabuto fell for his tricks with Sage Sensing, Orochimaru's Sensing, and Snake Sensing.


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## Ersa (Nov 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Not really sure how Minato's supposed to win.


With his speed.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 10, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Itachi was clashing CQC against KCM Naruto who is limited at Bee's speed and who doesn't wants to fight



Itachi did to Bee what Minato did to Bee. The difference is Minato used Hiraishin, which is restricted here, and Bee was warned by Itachi and Nagato for Itachi's shunshin positionings.

Bee also had a blade pointed at Minato's stomach, and not Itachi's stomach. This would be the only common opponent that they've both used their speed against on panel.​


hbcaptain said:


> Plus , Minato can summon toads and Bunta unlike his vs Kakashi thread , if we add that , then Itachi is just fucked .



Didn't Itachi disprove the whole 'Animal Path beats him' thing when he instantly blinded three of Nagato's summons in between panels as a side-action? Summons are little more than a nuisance.​


hbcaptain said:


> 3TS Genjutsu or lower level are useless against someone with Minato's synapse transmission speed .



This is based on a bad translation of 464. The canon manga doesn't say anything like that, so it's not really worth discussing.​


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## Ersa (Nov 10, 2015)

KCM Naruto being at B speed is such a common misconception, lol.

He reacted and intercepted Itachi while B went "!"


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Kabuto fell for his tricks with Sage Sensing, Orochimaru's Sensing, and Snake Sensing.



Kabuto's retarded.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 10, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> KCM Naruto being at B speed is such a common misconception, lol.
> 
> He reacted and intercepted Itachi while B went "!"



 I was going to reply, but didn't even bother.

 Also:

 12
 12

 Yeah, being on B's level of speed is such a misconception.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 10, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Kabuto's retarded.



 Kabuto's praised as a genius all throughout Part 1 and even his cunning tactics concerned Obito.

 Yet Kabuto's retarded. Yeah, no. His combat instincts and intelligence are constantly praised. He's not retarded. Not even close.


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## Ersa (Nov 10, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Kabuto's retarded.


5 in intelligence and senses that are comparable to Prime Tsunade by her own admission.

Extremely retarded


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 10, 2015)

Itachi used to have the clone advantages that allowed him to be tricky.  Using numbers and feints and capitalizing on a possible moment Minato is in genjutsu.  Minato has clones now too, and more chakra to use on them than Itachi, so they can intercept or genjutsu break him if anything happens.  Naruto tried to use numbers against Itachi to avoid genjutsu, and Itachi thought it was a good enough plan to warrant fodderizing Naruto's clones.  Minato's clones aren't chunin though, so if he's as smart as Naruto to try it, it will work out much better.

Itachi could use subtle genjutsu on summons, but sensing allows you to detect when someone is in genjutsu via their chakra network.  Granted, Minato isn't always in "sensing," mode, but against an Uchiha he would be more proactive against genjutsu.  Minato also has an instant, albeit crappy sage mode, that is something he can do that will give him a refresh and a large boost to his abilities should he find himself lacking enough edge over Itachi to close out the match.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Kabuto's praised as a genius all throughout Part 1 and even his cunning tactics concerned Obito.
> 
> Yet Kabuto's retarded. Yeah, no. His combat instincts and intelligence are constantly praised. He's not retarded. Not even close.





Ersatz said:


> 5 in intelligence and senses that are comparable to Prime Tsunade by her own admission.
> 
> Extremely retarded



The Kabuto who planned to take down a Sannin and outwitted Kakashi is smart.  The Kabuto who left behind a decoy of Sai to throw off Yamato is smart.

The Kabuto who forgot he knew how to doton and randomly spammed jutsu he never bothered to practice with or incorporate into his fighting while declaring himself the closest thing to ninja god and got butthurt over bounty prices is retarded.

This is the poster child for retardation, complete with poster.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato has clones now too, and more chakra to use on them than Itachi



Itachi has more affordable clones, so it's a wash. 

Itachi also uses them IC much more often.



Rocky said:


> Naruto tried to use numbers against Itachi to avoid genjutsu, and Itachi thought it was a good enough plan to warrant fodderizing Naruto's clones.  Minato's clones aren't chunin though.



Post-Wind Naruto is a Low/Mid Kage level. 

Like Minato without Hiraishin. Neither are Chunin level.



Rocky said:


> Itachi could use subtle genjutsu on summons, but sensing allows you to detect when someone is in genjutsu via their chakra network.  Granted, Minato isn't always in "sensing," mode.



Ao hyped Itachi's genjutsu as being undetectable to sensors.

So Minato'd have to find out the hard way.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 10, 2015)

Call me a lunatic rabbit, but I'm pretty sure if three mid-kage attacked Itachi's crow clone, they wouldn't be instantly killed with one shuriken.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 10, 2015)

Call me a lunatic turtle, but Itachi's beaten Mid Kage non-clones with one kunai.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 10, 2015)

No Hiraishin, Minato would turn to summons if he can't fight someone like Itachi... Why won't he use the best summons he can get? Fukasaku and Shima.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 10, 2015)

Did he fight three Raikages when I wasn't looking?


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## Rocky (Nov 10, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Itachi has reflexes superior to initial EMS Sasuke and the latter went on to react to Juubito







Ersatz said:


> with arguably the best on the fly analysis in the series.



What the fuck.



Ersatz said:


> Itachi's blitzing of B



Clone feints = blitzing?


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 10, 2015)

SM still isn't restricted.

I don't seem to understand how people continue to underestimate this boost on a guy who is already considered very fast without Hirashin.

If Itachi showed SM in the manga, you can bet we'd be adding it in as a major factor for everyone of his fights.

But, for some reason, no one wants to bring it up as it pertains to Minato. 

Senpo Rasengan delivered by SM enhanced shunshin and supported by the enhanced sensing pre-cog is something 3-toma Itachi won't be dealing with. He already can't handle Minato in CQC even absent Hirashin considering his kunai throwing speed and post-hirashin striking speed (with Rasengan & Kunai slash), boosting this further with increased physical strength, shunshin speed, reflexes & borderline pre-cog (Naruto's comment vs. 3rd Raikage) is simply too much.


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 10, 2015)

The underestimation of Minato here is epic.

First, Minato's Shushin speed is certainly greater than Itachi's. Of course, Itachi is a fast enough fighter to keep up just fine. Neither is going to be blitzing the other, but Minato's speed and reflexes are superior and that does give him the edge in combat.

Second, the overestimation of base Genjutsu continues. 4th Hokage hasn't shown Genjutsu defense because we've never seen him fight someone who uses it. But to assume that the 4th Hokage is getting merked by basic Sharingan Genjutsu is insulting to the series. Minato's chakra control is refined to an absolute tee and he's not getting killed by a basic Genjutsu feint.

It's a close match. But the reason I'd give this to Minato is because of the obvious reason no one is mentioning. When Minato starts to get overwhelmed by Itachi's combination of clones and tricky Genjutsu's, why wouldn't he enter Sage Mode and summon Ma and Pa or the in the opposite order? We see him enter Sage Mode without preperation. Either entering Sage Mode or summoning Ma and Pa will tip the balance in Minato's favor. If he does both, then Itachi gets throw into the grinder.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 10, 2015)

Everything that needs to be said regarding this match has already been said:

1. Minato is more handicapped without Hiraishin than Itachi is without the Mangekyou Sharingan.

2. Itachi wins with Genjutsu.

Restrict Genjutsu and it's a close fight, but one that probably still favors Itachi due to Minato's lack of displayed Ninjutsu other than Hiraishin-spamming.

Minato had trouble maintaining Sage Mode and can only use it for one Rasengan, apparently, and Itachi should be able to comfortably avoid that if he can step with Sage Kabuto. SM won't make enough of a difference to tip the scales in the fight, in the short window of time Minato can use it.


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 10, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> ]
> Restrict Genjutsu and it's a close fight, but one that probably still favors Itachi due to Minato's lack of displayed Ninjutsu other than Hiraishin-spamming.



Your fanboy-ism honestly hurts my soul. Minato with SM, Summonings and superior speed loses to Itachi without Genjutsu?

Have some decency.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 10, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Itachi has reflexes superior to initial EMS Sasuke and the latter went on to react to Juubito who is leagues faster then BM Naruto so Minato stands zero chance of blitzing him without Hiraishin here.



this again

you know ems sasuke probably improved, like vastly, right

because one second uncontrolled obito blitzed sasuke like ten chapters before the latter started miraculously keeping up with him

think also the *stats-enhancing kurama shroud* also had something to do with it?




> In terms of actual speed feats without Hiraishin, Itachi's blitzing of B is just as impressive as anything Minato has shown.



itachi never blitzed killer bee

to even come close to proving that, you'd need a panel of killer bee looking directly at the guy, then the panel of itachi appearing behind him

you have neither

so ya



> Hokage-wisdom wielding Uchiha with arguably the best on the fly analysis in the series.



what is this based off of again lol

'destroy giant gravitational sphere by attacking its center'???

kurama deducing how to beat obito at his own game >>>

naruto outsmarting pain when taking down naraka >>>

all of shikamaru's tactical displays >>>


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## Rocky (Nov 10, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi should be able to comfortably avoid that if he can step with Sage Kabuto.



Ah, Sage Kabuto = Sage Minato.

I must have just overlooked that base Kabuto hype putting him on par with Minato.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 10, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Your fanboy-ism honestly hurts my soul. Minato with SM, Summonings and superior speed loses to Itachi without Genjutsu?
> 
> Have some decency.



Minato can't hold SM and admits to being bad at it, summons are worthless against anyone remotely close to Itachi's level, and Minato has little or no speed advantage over Itachi without Hiraishin.

That leaves two dudes who are basically equal in terms of physical stats, with one having Rasengan and some sealing Jutsu versus a guy with a whole litany of Katon and Suiton Jutsu, and a Sharingan that can copy more as he needs to. And Genjutsu, that can render a physically comparable enemy completely helpless.



Rocky said:


> Ah, Sage Kabuto = Sage Minato.
> 
> I must have just overlooked that base Kabuto hype putting him on par with Minato.



Sage Mode doesn't give everybody the same boost, or else Jiraiya would be stronger than Naruto. 

Having said that, I'll have no qualms about favoring the guy who mastered Sage Mode and augmented it with other tracking abilities versus the guy who admits he was never any good at it.


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## Rocky (Nov 10, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Sage Mode doesn't give everybody the same boost, or else Jiraiya would be stronger than Naruto.



Jiraiya wasn't a "perfect" Sage.

ck



Nikushimi said:


> Having said that, I'll have no qualms about favoring the guy who mastered Sage Mode and augmented it with other tracking abilities versus the guy who admits he was never any good at it.



Minato isn't good at it because it takes him too long to build up the chakra for more than one Rasengan.

I have absolutely no clue what that has to do with the speed of that Rasengan compared to whatever Kabuto can dish out...


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## Nikushimi (Nov 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya wasn't a "perfect" Sage.
> 
> ck



Neither was Minato. He was actually the worst Sage, after anonymous toad statue fodder. ck



> Minato isn't good at it because it takes him too long to build up the chakra for more than one Rasengan.



Then why are we having this debate? ck



> I have absolutely no clue what that has to do with the speed of that Rasengan compared to whatever Kabuto can dish out...



Sage Mode's boost appears to be related to the user's skill with gathering natural energy and molding Senjutsu.

Kabuto is more skilled at that than Minato.

Ergo...


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 10, 2015)

Base Kabuto's stats were comical. 

Enhancing that with SM brought him to the speed level that Healthy Itachi was able to mirror. 

Base Minato's stats aren't comical, he already has V2-level mental reactions and apparently a shunshin of note. 

Enhancing that with Sage Mode means he'd be faster than SM Kabuto, because he'd now have the reflexes and shunshin to act on that V2-level mental perception.



> Sage Mode's boost appears to be related to the user's skill with gathering natural energy and molding Senjutsu.
> 
> Kabuto is more skilled at that than Minato.
> 
> Ergo...


Kabuto could not enter SM without Jugo's DNA. This is what the feats showcased. He never entered SM without Jugo's power. 

Minato entered it in a fraction of a second and showcased perfect sage physical features - without incorporating KG which allows them to absorb natural energy at will (Jugo).

I don't really understand how you could suggest Kabuto had superior skill as it pertains to sage arts, when he required a unique ability from a foreign ninja that he incorporated into his frankeinstein body to achieve them.

Even if he could achieve it without Jugo's power, he canonically admitted he cannot maintain the transformation while moving, so he is no more skilled than Minato, who entered the mode without showcasing he could maintain it while moving. It remains still that Minato entered Perfect SM in a fraction of a second with his own power, SM Kabuto entered it with the benefit of Jugo's power, which passively attracts Natural Energy even in transit, meaning based on feats Minato is more skilled in the sage arts than Kabuto is because he showed he could enter it by himself.


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 10, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Minato can't hold SM and admits to being bad at it, summons are worthless against anyone remotely close to Itachi's level, and Minato has little or no speed advantage over Itachi without Hiraishin.
> 
> That leaves two dudes who are basically equal in terms of physical stats, with one having Rasengan and some sealing Jutsu versus a guy with a whole litany of Katon and Suiton Jutsu, and a Sharingan that can copy more as he needs to. And Genjutsu, that can render a physically comparable enemy completely helpless.



Minato said that, and then proceeded to go into Sage Mode with little effort and maintain it for a decent amount of time. Certainly enough time to make a significant difference in a battle against Itachi.

You saying summons are worthless is the essence of fanboyism. Pure, heavily distilled fanboyism. Ma and Pa are two Senjutsu masters. Their combination of Fighting Tongue Bind and Finding Tongue Slash would put Itachi, who is without knowledge, in an extremely dangerous situation from which he probably ain't recovering.Their combination of Fire and Wind Jutsu is for more powerful than any Suiton or Katon that Itachi has ever demonstrated bar the Mangekyo Sharingan. Frog Call is another technique Itachi could fall into without knowledge. Finally, their mere presence totally eliminates the threat of Itachi's Non-Mangekyo Ninjutsu's.

Not to mention they can do all these things WHILE gathering Sage Chakra for Minato. Now, on top of this Minato can summon other frogs and further outnumber Itachi?

Earlier, I thought this was a close match. On closer thought, if Ma and Pa aren't restricted, this is is one-sided.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 10, 2015)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> The Kabuto who forgot he knew how to doton and randomly spammed jutsu he never bothered to practice with or incorporate into his fighting while declaring himself the closest thing to ninja god and got butthurt over bounty prices is retarded.



 Sure, if you want to cherrypick low-end feats for Kabuto, then go ahead. Obito still expressed concern when Kabuto devised a devious tactic at luring Anko towards their hideout, managed to capture Yamato, managed to salvage DNA of dozens of high-level ninja, and discovered the secrets within the Uchiha tablet, and even managed to restore Madara in his Prime state with the Rinnegan intact.

 Kabuto's lack of usage of his own jutsu was likely because it was ineffective. He still managed to learn a variety of jutsu by salvaging DNA and enhanced them even further which is something nobody in the manga has ever done.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 10, 2015)

Hiraishin is what makes Minato deadly in CQC. 

Itachi's Taijutsu and Sharingan can keep up with Minato just fine - if not outshine him - and he's still better at clone feinting. His weapon feats from kunai/shuriken to swords are also better and more refined. Their elements are around the same level, for the most part. Minato's summons are pretty useless, as he'd primarily use them for power; Itachi simply puts them under Genjutsu. And good luck to Bunta if he ever plans on tagging Itachi, anyway. Itachi's crows can be used via clones and would even be helpful in diversion, however.

Granted, Minato has access to Rasengan, but Itachi's Genjutsu isn't something to disregard. At best, Shiki Fuujin would make the fight a stalemate, though he'd have to actually make sure it is Itachi himself and not a clone within his sight.


Base Itachi is more complete than Base Minato.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 10, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> But to assume that the 4th Hokage is getting merked by basic Sharingan Genjutsu is insulting to the series.



Minato only basic genjutsu defense. And Kishi did a really solid job of showing us that Itachi's a basic genjutsu user. So what you're saying adds up.



OutlawJohn said:


> why wouldn't he enter Sage Mode



Do you know what IC means?





OutlawJohn said:


> and summon Ma and Pa



Because he never has. But hey, you're unbiased.



Rocky said:


> I must have just overlooked that base Kabuto hype putting him on par with Minato.




20+ immortal Kage slaves
Island-sized snake summon
Suigetsu's logia form
Karin's regeneration ability
Kidomaru's kekkei genkai
Kimimaro's kekkei genkai
Sakon's kekkei genkai
Jirobo's abilities
Tayuya's abilities
White Snake Mode
Tsunade level medic
Orochimaru level researcher

Not "on par" with Minato? Or Minato without Hiraishin? Right.


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 10, 2015)

Genjutsu gg'd

Not even a legit matchup.

His senjutsu is poor, people need to stop spouting fanfiction.

Zero ninjutsu feats outside of Rasengans/ FTG and one is restricted, saying he can do all this raiton jutsu etc. is featless and fanfiction.

Itachi has suiton,katon, amazing use of shadow clones in conjunction with his crow jutsu and even throws Kunai and Shuriken better than Minato, His handseals are top tier and can't be followed either. Also excellent cqc feats that don't have me believing Minato is greater than him at it. KCM Naruto, and Killer Bee are pretty high benchmarks when it comes to that. If anything it will be a close cqc battle or Minato slightly edging him out but I doubt it. He has reflexes greater than EMS Sasuke as stated before in this thread.

Admist all this he has nothing to defend against Itachi's genjutsu, so he eventually gets caught and wrecked.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sure, if you want to cherrypick low-end feats for Kabuto, then go ahead. Obito still expressed concern when Kabuto devised a devious tactic at luring Anko towards their hideout, managed to capture Yamato, managed to salvage DNA of dozens of high-level ninja, and discovered the secrets within the Uchiha tablet, and even managed to restore Madara in his Prime state with the Rinnegan intact.
> 
> Kabuto's lack of usage of his own jutsu was likely because it was ineffective. He still managed to learn a variety of jutsu by salvaging DNA and enhanced them even further which is something nobody in the manga has ever done.







The first attack forced them into a 50-50, and the second attack only failed because they were right next to each other, while Kabuto was too far away to capitalize.  If he was closer, or separated them, they would have worked.

Like a true quitter, he never used those jutsu again, even though he displayed sensing and numerous ranged attacked, and knew he could successfully separate them.  This is the only fight where he never stopped and thought about anything, or tried to adapt, or acted with the caution that made him comparable to Kakashi back in Part I.  His response to every failure was to spit more powers figuring eventually it would work because he, "...can't lose!!!  MWAHAHAHAHAHA!"  He did this because he wanted to come out of the shadows and be acknowledged as powerful, and not be the guy hiding behind tricks and disguises.  He put that over securing victory, and in doing so he got beaten with a jutsu that isn't suited for battle.  The one Itachi announced and he didn't even bother trying to figure out, again, saying whatever it was was useless.  It's markedly worse than most examples, which can be attributed to Kishi not being a real life genius, and I could go through the entire fight showing case after case of this behavior, lining it up with his mentality and personal issues.  One of which would be declaring a world war and joining the guy who wants to break the planet and bringing back Uchiha Madara because he wanted ninja senpais to notice him.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 11, 2015)

Minato's CQC fighting style hurts him here. You don't want to get close to those red eyes. Nor do you want to stab/Rasengan a clone that explodes/turns into Uchiha Crows. Going with Itachi on this one.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

Itachi's ninjutsu is a non-facotr against Minato's barrier that can even hold Kurama's physical power .

And saying non MS Itachi's Genjutsu is beating Minato is just insluting him .


----------



## Ersa (Nov 11, 2015)

> What the fuck.


He has two competitors; Kakashi and Minato.

And they lack this.



Feat-wise their on the fly analysis is at a similar level.


> Clone feints = blitzing?


KCM Naruto reacted to him attacking them. KCM Naruto has reflexes superior to v2 A so it's to be expected. B? Not so much.

He blindsided him and B needed a warning to keep up so yeah.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

Itachi gets fucked. 

Minato is still much faster than he is, and has much more chakra. His summons are significantly superior to itachi's.
And no, Genjutsu nonsense is not holding a water with Contract Seal. 

In addition, he has his sensing ability, and far more advanced jutsu (Sealing jutsu) and Rassengan which are better than itachi's lolKaton. 

In top of that, he has SM as well, to completely demolish itachi in every possible area ( if he isn't already)
and if he so desire, he can summon Ma/Pa to turn this into an absolute fodderstomp. 

Minato being smarter than itachi does not make anything good in itachi's favour either.



Hachibi said:


> Hussain think Base Minato > 8th Gate Gai
> 
> There you go



I sense asshurt. 


stay salty.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

> KCM Naruto reacted to him attacking them. KCM Naruto has reflexes superior to v2 A so it's to be expected. B? Not so much.


By feats KCM Naruto who fought Itachi was diminished by clone usage , and that Naruto is one cut below base Bee if we are talking about reflexes , their feats against the Jinchuriki were pretty clear .

And Itachi was pressured by Bee in Taijutsu .


----------



## Ersa (Nov 11, 2015)

Weakened KCM Naruto stomps any form of Killer B bar BM. He's ahead of Pain Arc SM Naruto by his own admission.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato isn't good at it because it takes him too long to build up the chakra for more than one Rasengan.
> 
> I have absolutely no clue what that has to do with the speed of that Rasengan compared to whatever Kabuto can dish out...



Too long in his standerds I suppose, because it took him a second or so




Strategoob said:


> Do you know what IC means?
> 
> 
> 
> [/LIST]



I think he knows what wrong translation mean.. 


not using it much is not the same as never using it.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Weakened KCM Naruto stomps any form of Killer B bar BM. He's ahead of Pain Arc SM Naruto by his own admission.


You should reread Bee&KCM Naruto vs Jinchuriki fight :
-Who was scratchedd by Roshi's lava .
-Who ws touched by utakata's acide balls .
Base Bee is even faster and has more reflexes than that Naruto's version , and yeah Narut agreed he is stronger globaly :

KCM Naruto+ clones disperced everywhere<<SM Naruto<KCM Naruto .


----------



## Ersa (Nov 11, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> You should reread Bee&KCM Naruto vs Jinchuriki fight :
> -Who was scratchedd by Roshi's lava .
> -Who ws touched by utakata's acide balls .
> Base Bee is even faster and has more reflexes than that Naruto's version , and yeah Narut agreed he is stronger globaly :
> ...


Not really, you should re-read the manga.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

Just what I said :
KCM Naruto weakened by many clones<<SM Naruto<KCM Naruto .
And the feats are confirming that :
Base Bee>weakened KCM Naruto .


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

It's silly to use that fight for anyone but Nagato honestly. 
Neither Narudo nor B were fighting seriously. Especially against itachi, since as Naruto said, he just wanted
to talk to him. Nothing more nothing less. He did not even use any jutsu, speed, or anything whatsoever against
itachi.


----------



## Kyu (Nov 11, 2015)

> His speed and reflexes are only par with Base Raikage's and Taka Sasuke who's far slower and less reflexive than Itachi reacted to V1 Raikage's speed at the last second.



I've seen it all.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

3TS Sasuke = 3TS Itachi , it's canon :

Itachi vs Bee :


Sasuke vs Bee :
blitz
blitz
blitz


----------



## Ersa (Nov 11, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Just what I said :
> KCM Naruto weakened by many clones<<SM Naruto<KCM Naruto .
> And the feats are confirming that :
> Base Bee>weakened KCM Naruto .


I think I'm done.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

Uchiha fans as always


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 11, 2015)

>Base B
>Being superior to any version of KCM Nardo


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2015)

I just skimmed through the thread.
A couple of points I'd like to underline  : 

1 - Minato's SM is a non factor, because he won't be able to use it. He doesn't have the luxury to sit back and build up sage chakra in a 1on1 scenario unless his opponents lets him do it out of good will. Even if he did(I love how Minato fans finally admit that base Minato is inferior to Itachi), 1 rasengan worth of sage mode won't accomplish anything against Itachi, anyways.

2 - KCM Naruto was weakened is a horseshit of an argument. Lets pretend like it was never brought up.

3 - B is fast enough to react to Minato blindsiding him with hirashin, he had to be warned by Itachi to do so against his shunshin.

4 - Minato doesn't have any exclusive knowledge about Itachi's genjutsu. Even if he somehow manages to fight avoiding eye contact, he still gets caught by finger or crow genjutsu.

I actually may have to restrict genjutsu to make things fair. Thats seems to be the general consensus here.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

base B and KCM Narudo are irrelevant here.

itachi needed his MS to survive against someone of Hebi-Sasuke level for God's sake. lol


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> base B and KCM Narudo are irrelevant here.
> 
> itachi needed his MS to survive against someone of Hebi-Sasuke level for God's sake. lol


And Minato needs Kushina's help and has to sacrifice his life to deal with Kyuubi, whom Itachi can make his bitch with a mere glance.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

> [=Grimmjowsensei;54705036]I just skimmed through the thread.
> A couple of points I'd like to underline  :
> 
> 1 - Minato's SM is a non factor, because he won't be able to use it. He doesn't have the luxury to sit back and build up sage chakra in a 1on1 scenario unless his opponents lets him do it out of good will. Even if he did(I love how Minato fans finally admit that base Minato is inferior to Itachi), 1 rasengan worth of sage mode won't accomplish anything against Itachi, anyways.


He used it against Madara. No one saw him sit back to build the chakra. 

- Lol, why wouldn't itachi get fucked if it hits him? 

- No, itachi is inferior to base Minato obviously. The SM, is just "IF" we go with itachi's fan complains about a Kage get defeated by lolbase Sharingan Genjutsu that is not even enough to deal with Kurnai. 


> 2 - KCM Naruto was weakened is a horseshit of an argument. Lets pretend like it was never brought up.


as much as itachi being weaker against Sasuke is a horseshit argument. 



> 3 - B is fast enough to react to Minato blindsiding him with hirashin, he had to be warned by Itachi to do so against his shunshin.


Except B was already putting the sword behind himself beforehand. He did not move a muscle when Minato teleported back to him (and not attacking him purposely). 



> 4 - Minato doesn't have any exclusive knowledge about Itachi's genjutsu. Even if he somehow manages to fight avoiding eye contact, he still gets caught by finger or crow genjutsu.



a Hokage who ruled over the uchiha does not know about what they have when everyone and their mothers even from other villages know.  



> he still gets caught by finger or crow genjutsu


Yes, Minato is on the same level as early part 2 Naruto.  



> I actually may have to restrict genjutsu to make things fair.


You have to restrict Minato entirely to make it fair actually. lol


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And Minato needs Kushina's help and has to sacrifice his life to deal with Kyuubi, whom Itachi can make his bitch with a mere glance.



Strange, I thought that itachi's fans are on agreement that Kurama will fuck itachi raw with the entire Akatsuki with him since his statement was totally about 12 years old Naruto.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 11, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >Base B
> >Being superior to any version of KCM Nardo


I just hope it doesn't breed.

We don't need more stupid here.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 11, 2015)

Wait' wasn't the general consensus before that Minato built SM up off-panel while Mad was talking to Obito(becausz of his confession that he sucked)?

What changed?


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Wait' wasn't the general consensus before that Minato built SM up off-panel while Mad was talking to Obito?
> 
> What changed?



Pff lol, no. Did the Kunai threw itself?


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Pff lol, no. Did the Kunai threw itself?



Meanwhile' Hussain doesn't know what off-panel mean

Him saying "that it take too much time" latter on prove it' unless too much time = instant


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> He used it against Madara. No one saw him sit back to build the chakra.


Because it was offpaneled.
But we know that Minato was standing still during the entire time, off combat. And he admitted it takes too long to build up chakra.



> - Lol, why wouldn't itachi get fucked if it hits him?


For Minato to land a rasengan on Itachi, he needs to severely outplay him.
I don't see that happening, in between Itachi's genjutsu, clones and sharingan precog.
I mean, Itachi already clone feinted and disarmed a perfect sage. 
Feats are with Itachi today my friend. Maybe next time 



> - No, itachi is inferior to base Minato obviously. The SM, is just "IF" we go with itachi's fan complains about a Kage get defeated by lolbase Sharingan Genjutsu that is not even enough to deal with Kurnai.


Yeah ok, then don't keep bringing up sage mode mate, as if it is Minato's only saving grace here 



> as much as itachi being weaker against Sasuke is a horseshit argument.


Completely irrelevant.

But I'll concede if you can show me scans stating or showing KCM Naruto to be severely weakened.



> Except B was already putting the sword behind himself beforehand. He did not move a muscle when Minato teleported back to him (and not attacking him purposely).


So B preempted Minato's hirashin blitz, but wasn't able to preempt Itachi's shunshin blitz and had to be warned.

Admit it, Minato shunshin blitzing a high tier nins and warning them is your wet fantasy 



> a Hokage who ruled over the uchiha does not know about what they have when everyone and their mothers even from other villages know.


Itachi =/= every uchiha



> Yes, Minato is on the same level as early part 2 Naruto.



There is absolutely no reason to assume that Minato can break Itachi's genjutsu faster than Hachibee can, which allowed B to react to it by the skin of his teeth. 
Minato is dead meat if he gets genjutsu'd, and we all know it.



> You have to restrict Minato entirely to make it fair actually. lol


Most people here think otherwise, so for now I'll keep things as they are. But like I said, might restrict genjutsu or give Minato full knowledge.



Hussain said:


> Strange, I thought that itachi's fans are on agreement that Kurama will fuck itachi raw with the entire Akatsuki with him since his statement was totally about 12 years old Naruto.



Naw bro, it was Jiraiya 

Jiraiya >= Itachi + Kisame+ the whole Akatsuki


----------



## Yoko (Nov 11, 2015)

This is pretty much the same thing as the Kakashi vs. Minato thread.  Itachi's only "disadvantage" (if you want to call it that) is a potential marginal gap in speed, which is easily recovered thanks to 3T precognition.  Itachi dominates in every other category - Ninjutsu range / versatility, weapons usage, Genjutsu (which can become a factor if timed correctly), and overall CQC.

I still find it odd that posters are trying to sell the idea that Minato can use Sage Mode in a battle where he won't have the luxury of standing still.  Kakashi flat out said that Minato sucked at Sage Mode, and Minato agreed, and went on to explain that he never used it in combat because it takes too long to enter and cannot be maintained for long.  

You can either keep throwing around this idea that "he entered it instantly", which is contradicted by both Kakashi and Minato, or you can accept the rather logical notion that he was gathering Sage energy during the "down-time" phase of the fight, which actually aligns with what he later states.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

> Ninjutsu range / versatility, weapons usage


lol , now Katon Goukakyu no Jutsu is a factor .
Minato's KunaiJutsu>>>Itachi's Shurikenjutsu .


----------



## Yoko (Nov 11, 2015)

It's a factor in the sense that it can apply ranged pressure.  It forces Minato to dodge whereas otherwise he wouldn't have.  Yes, it will miss individually, but if timed with other Katons / Suitons, it can eventually provide an opening where one of them may land or Itachi himself can physically land a solid shot.  

I've done this in the other thread, but again, I'll point you to Kakuzu vs. Kakashi.  Kakashi is faster than Kakuzu and had 3T Sharingan as well.  He was dodging Kakuzu's attacks too, avoiding the Futon and Katon as well as intercepting the Raiton.  However, Kakashi was eventually overwhelmed when Kakuzu started attacking physically while simultaneously firing off elementals.  Itachi can replicate that to a lesser degree with clones.

Minato's kunai jutsu aren't above Itachi's.  Itachi was curving kunai and shuriken midair.  Minato has shown nothing of the sort.  Unless you want to use the blatant outlier feat where his kunai toss "outsped Kamui", which opens a door to sheer ridiculousness, like Kakashi being able to throw kunai at Gedodama speeds and Lee being able to throw kunai faster than 8th gate Guy can move, and that's not something I want to entertain in a serious thread.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

> It's a factor in the sense that it can apply ranged pressure. It forces Minato to dodge whereas otherwise he wouldn't have. Yes, it will miss individually, but if timed with other Katons / Suitons, it can eventually provide an opening where one of them may land or Itachi himself can physically land a solid shot.


Minato can easily counter it using Rasengan :
blitz
blitz
It's even allowing him to couter by a surprise attack Shunshin+Rasengan
Rasengan>>>All basic elementary Jutsus

Plus , Minato can also use his super durable barriers to easily annihilate it .

Plus Minato midrange Kunais are much more pressuring than any low level ninjutsu .



> Minato's kunai jutsu aren't above Itachi's. Itachi was curving kunai and shuriken midair. Minato has shown nothing of the sort.



Now Minato cant even throught out a Kunai :amazed




> like Kakashi being able to throw kunai at Gedodama speeds


Kakashi was tens of times closer to Gai ===>GudoDama are ten of times faster .
Same geos for Lee .


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2015)

Did someone say Minato's kunai/shuriken skills > Itachi's ?


----------



## Yoko (Nov 11, 2015)

What your scan doesn't show is the dozens of clones that could have damage soaked that Katon that weakened it enough by the time Naruto prepared the Rasengan.  

hbcaptain, your argument is literally retreading the same exact steps I went with you in the other thread.  This is the last time I am going over it:

 Bottom left panel - Guy Shunshins a solid 15m away from Kakashi and co.

Bottom right panel - Madara is a solid 10m away from Guy's 7th gate aura.

 This entire page - Guy covers the previously mentioned distance, engaging Madara in CQC and even pushing him back a bit (let's say a meter or two).

 Madara slides away what looks to be at best 10 meters, and that's being very generous.

The takeaway from all this - Madara is 10 meters away from Guy when he launches the Truthseeker.  Kakashi and co. are over ~20m away, and Kakashi was throwing the kunai in reaction to the Gedodama, and it still caught up.  

I literally walked you through all the scans - how is the takeaway from that becoming Kakashi is "tens of times closer"? Kakashi is farther.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

Yoko said:


> What your scan doesn't show is the dozens of clones that could have damage soaked that Katon that weakened it enough by the time Naruto prepared the Rasengan.
> 
> hbcaptain, your argument is literally retreading the same exact steps I went with you in the other thread.  This is the last time I am going over it:
> 
> ...


And int the end , Gai was pushed backward for no less than 70m after Hirutora clash :
slides away
slides away

Then what said Minato :
slides away

The distance between Madara and Gai after the clash was 70m ==>Kakashi was tens of times closer to him .


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Meanwhile' Hussain doesn't know what off-panel mean
> 
> Him saying "that it take too much time" latter on prove it' unless too much time = instant



Meanwhile, Hachibi does not know what SM is.
Minato threw the Kunai and THEN he entered SM. if he was staying still, and then moved, he wouldn't have been able to use the SM because being still is a requirement, got it?


> [=Grimmjowsensei;54705079]Because it was offpaneled.
> But we know that Minato was standing still during the entire time, off combat. And he admitted it takes too long to build up chakra.


Explained above. And Minato was showing the whole time anyway when Madara was speaking. 


> For Minato to land a rasengan on Itachi, he needs to severely outplay him.
> I don't see that happening, in between Itachi's genjutsu, clones and sharingan precog.
> I mean, Itachi already clone feinted and disarmed a perfect sage.
> Feats are with Itachi today my friend. Maybe next time


Genjutsu is not automatic. Minato is way faster than itachi AND a sensor. 
Also, itachi had EMS Sasuke help. 



> Yeah ok, then don't keep bringing up sage mode mate, as if it is Minato's only saving grace here


it just covering as much is info as possible. But, it's cool that you're already know that at the end
SM will make itachi gets stomped.  


> Completely irrelevant.
> 
> But I'll concede if you can show me scans stating or showing KCM Naruto to be severely weakened.


slides away
no need to thank me. 


> So B preempted Minato's hirashin blitz, but wasn't able to preempt Itachi's shunshin blitz and had to be warned.
> 
> Admit it, Minato shunshin blitzing a high tier nins and warning them is your wet fantasy


B knew itachi behind him and forced him away with his sword 
itachi's statement is irrelevant to what happened as B was not surprised or taken off-guard. 

his Shunshin is superior to everyone except for A and up. 


> Itachi =/= every uchiha


He is one of them, and use what they are known for. Actually, from the relevant uchiha, itachi is the weakest one.  



> There is absolutely no reason to assume that Minato can break Itachi's genjutsu faster than Hachibee can, which allowed B to react to it by the skin of his teeth.
> Minato is dead meat if he gets genjutsu'd, and we all know it.



There is absolutely no need to assume that Minato will fall in one to begin with. 
Madara needed 5 EMS/Rinnegan clones with Susanoo to put A under his genjutsu. 

Why should we assume that itachi's eyes are going to be fast enough to build up the chakra and use it before Minato can sense and avoid when he is much faster than itachi? 

Also, B is not even the weakest one here. Kurnai was fast enough to break his Genjutsu AND reacts to his attack. Am I suppose to think Minato is also slower than Kurnai? 


> Most people here think otherwise, so for now I'll keep things as they are. But like I said, might restrict genjutsu or give Minato full knowledge.


"Most" is not an argument. And when glancing over the pages, they are mostly itachi's fans anyway.  Not credible (at least when it comes to him when they say stuff as him talking on the 5 Kages, 3 Sannin ....etc etc) 


> Naw bro, it was Jiraiya
> 
> Jiraiya >= Itachi + Kisame+ the whole Akatsuki


you have finally seen light!


----------



## Yoko (Nov 11, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> And int the end , Gai was pushed backward for no less than 70m after Hirutora clash :
> slides away
> slides away



A completely fabricated number, and the scans you post do not support anything you're saying about this 70m distance. 

And why would Madara be sliding back if the attack pushed Guy in the opposite direction? The attack exploded, dropping Guy on the ground, and sending Madara back a few meters.  If the attack pushed Guy back, Madara wouldn't be sliding back from the aftermath of the explosion.




> The distance between Madara and Gai after the clash was 70m ==>Kakashi was tens of times closer to him .



  Not even close.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

Yoko said:


> It's a factor in the sense that it can apply ranged pressure.  It forces Minato to dodge whereas otherwise he wouldn't have.  Yes, it will miss individually, but if timed with other Katons / Suitons, it can eventually provide an opening where one of them may land or Itachi himself can physically land a solid shot.
> 
> I've done this in the other thread, but again, I'll point you to Kakuzu vs. Kakashi.  Kakashi is faster than Kakuzu and had 3T Sharingan as well.  He was dodging Kakuzu's attacks too, avoiding the Futon and Katon as well as intercepting the Raiton.  However, Kakashi was eventually overwhelmed when Kakuzu started attacking physically while simultaneously firing off elementals.  Itachi can replicate that to a lesser degree with clones.
> 
> Minato's kunai jutsu aren't above Itachi's.  Itachi was curving kunai and shuriken midair.  Minato has shown nothing of the sort.  Unless you want to use the blatant outlier feat where his kunai toss "outsped Kamui", which opens a door to sheer ridiculousness, like Kakashi being able to throw kunai at Gedodama speeds and Lee being able to throw kunai faster than 8th gate Guy can move, and that's not something I want to entertain in a serious thread.



- See Lee Vs Sasuke.
- This is a rather terrible example. Kakuzu has 4 other hearts to do attacks at the same time. 
Itachi is only 1 guy, with such a pitiful chakra pool. How on earth is he going to do that? 



> Itachi can replicate that to a lesser degree with clones.


Fan-fiction. When has itachi ever had a chakra big enough to use more than 1 clone per fight?
and in case you missed that, Minato can use clones as well. 



> Minato's kunai jutsu aren't above Itachi's.  Itachi was curving kunai and shuriken midair.  Minato has shown nothing of the sort.  Unless you want to use the blatant outlier feat where his kunai toss



lol

Minato countered Kunais from 20 different direction at the same time.
slides away
and so was his Kunai strike faster than Kakashi
slides away

He was able to place his Kunais MUCH faster than any of the Hokages can even come to the scene.




> Unless you want to use the blatant outlier feat where his kunai toss "outsped Kamui"



So, you are saying you should take his feats away because you don't like them (they don't suite your believes)? Got it. 
that's quite the evidence...


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

Yoko said:
			
		

> A completely fabricated number, and the scans you post do not support anything you're saying about this 70m distance.


Minato said that the distance was about 70m , it's canon .
Minato's comments>>>>>>your interpretation .
You are just trying to invalid a valid feat because it doesn't seem to suit you .


----------



## OutlawJohn (Nov 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Minato only basic genjutsu defense. And Kishi did a really solid job of showing us that Itachi's a basic genjutsu user. So what you're saying adds up.



Minato never faced a Genjutsu user so Minato gets beat by basic Sharingan Genjutsu. Well, GG Konoha if Minato was Hokage for more than a year I guess. Sharingan Genjutsu not beating a former Hokage. Not when he moves faster and can 




> Do you know what IC means?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Minato has never been in a situation where needs to summon Ma or Pa. If you're going to resort to saying, "HE never has, so he won't even though its clearly the best possible solution", then you've admitted defeat and have nothing of substance to say. IC doesn't mean retard.

Do you even know what unbiased means? Here's a page of Minato instantly going into Sage Mode and rushing Rikudo Madara: slides away

Next your gonna say: oh, well he got kicked away. Well, good thing Itachi isn't Rikudo Madara.
Next match up.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

Minato was even fast enough to get his Kunai over A who was coming to him with his top speed
slides away


Would like to see itachi's speed that is faster than A's V2. lol

even when he was training his team, he can set up the traps of Kunais


----------



## Yoko (Nov 11, 2015)

Lee vs. Sasuke doesn't work for so many reasons.  Lee was superior to Sasuke in every physical attribute - speed (by a massive margin), Taijutsu, and strength.  Minato is not superior to Itachi in anything barring speed, and it's nowhere near the extent to which Lee was superior to 2T Sasuke.  Furthermore, you're using 2T Sharingan.  Why not KN0 vs. 3T Sasuke? Or Raikage vs. 3T Sasuke?

In Part I, he used a clone in addition to 3 Mangekyo techniques and other jutsu (Suiton drills, Suiton wall, Genjutsu on Kurenai), and he wasn't dropping to his knees.  Itachi is healthy here according to OP, so chakra will be less of an issue here.  Itachi used two clones against Sasuke when sick . . . here and here.  When he's healthy, and if he uses crow clones, he'll be fine.  DB3 explicitly states that they require less chakra:



			
				DB3 said:
			
		

> A technique that produces a clone by projecting one's own chakra towards dozens of "crows". *Because it uses crows as an medium, it requires less chakra then the normal "Shadow Clone Technique," *while still being able to perform techniques.




Only see 7 "clash" SFXs on that page, so not sure where you got twenty from.  That isn't out of the ordinary either . . . Kakashi was completely blinded and blocked 10 shuriken from Zabuza (judging by the number of clash SFXs).    Countering kunai tosses from nameless Jonin doesn't outweigh curving kunai to hit Rinnegan blind spots. 

I'm not saying I don't like them.  I'm saying they are obvious outliers, not to mention the fact that it was a team collaboration in that instance (as well as a near-blind Kakashi).  Are you willing to accept that Kakashi can throw kunai at Gedodama speeds, which required double-Kamui to dodge? You can't selectively use these outlier feats only when they suit your argument - either accept them all or reject them all.



hbcaptain said:


> Minato said that the distance was about 70m , it's canon .
> Minato's comments>>>>>>your interpretation .
> You are just trying to invalid a valid feat because it doesn't seem to suit you .



Or that Madara attempted to chase them with the Gedodama after that scan and failed to do so after  70m.  I am not trying to invalidate anything.

But fine.  Let's go with your version of Madara being 70m away . . . there is absolutely nothing that indicates that Kakashi was "much closer."  I have already disproved this notion.  If Madara was 70m away, then Kakashi was even farther than 70m away judging by the scans I previously provided.

*EDIT:* I also think its laughable that you say Minato's comment >>>>>> my interpretation, but when he flat out says that Sage Mode is not practical in battle for him, that is ignored because reasons.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Nov 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I just skimmed through the thread.
> A couple of points I'd like to underline  :
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

Yoko said:
			
		

> Or that Madara attempted to chase them with the Gedodama after that scan and failed to do so after 70m


Madara tryed that directly after Hirutora clash , it's canon without asting any time it's canon in the manga .

Kakashi's laucnhing Kunai speed<<<<Madara's Gudo Dama move speed .
That's why Kakashi was much much closer to Gai .
If you say the opposite then you are just trying to invalid logical manga feats because...you aren't feeling better .


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

> [=Yoko;54705239]Lee vs. Sasuke doesn't work for so many reasons.  Lee was superior to Sasuke in every physical attribute - speed (by a massive margin), Taijutsu, and strength.  Minato is not superior to Itachi in anything barring speed, and it's nowhere near the extent to which Lee was superior to 2T Sasuke.  Furthermore, you're using 2T Sharingan.  Why not KN0 vs. 3T Sasuke? Or Raikage vs. 3T Sasuke?



Except Minato is THAT much faster than itachi. What feats or shunshin does itachi have to put it anywhere near as fast as Minato's shunshin exactly? 

- I am giving you an example only. Also, the different between Minato's shunshin and itachi's is far bigger than that of KN0 and Sasuke (who was also powered up with the CS btw, so it was not all the sharingan). 

and A did get Sasuke as well at the end of the day. 


> In Part I, he used a clone in addition to 3 Mangekyo techniques and other jutsu (Suiton drills, Suiton wall, Genjutsu on Kurenai), and he wasn't dropping to his knees.  Itachi is healthy here according to OP, so chakra will be less of an issue here.  Itachi used two clones against Sasuke when sick . . . here and here.  When he's healthy, and if he uses crow clones, he'll be fine.  DB3 explicitly states that they require less chakra:


None of what you posted is MS jutsu. He only used it 1 against Kakashi. Needless to say, giving those moves are not saying anything, because the clones require more chakra. 

"Healthy" does not mean we give him fan-fictional extra chakra. Itachi was health in part 1, but he was actually exhausted after he defeated Kakashi.

Yes, crow clones are not in the same quality like the shadow clones. And if I remember correctly we haven't seen them able to use jutsu like the original one (correct me if I got that wrong) 



> Only see 7 "clash" SFXs on that page, so not sure where you got twenty from.


here


> That isn't out of the ordinary either . . . Kakashi was completely blinded and blocked 10 shuriken from Zabuza (judging by the number of clash SFXs).    Countering kunai tosses from nameless Jonin doesn't outweigh curving kunai to hit Rinnegan blind spots.



by this logic, what itachi does is not out of the ordinary either. Bolt was able to pull that off in 1 day.  


> I'm not saying I don't like them.  I'm saying they are obvious outliers, not to mention the fact that it was a team collaboration in that instance (as well as a near-blind Kakashi).  Are you willing to accept that Kakashi can throw kunai at Gedodama speeds, which required double-Kamui to dodge? You can't selectively use these outlier feats only when they suit your argument - either accept them all or reject them all.



Minato throwing his Kunai to get to JJ SS asspulldara was not a team effort, it was him alone. And he was already praised for his fast striking from the fastest man of his time (Tobirama), and we saw him
do that to V2 A before that as well. It's not outliers when we see it several time and getting praised from the fastest character, that's for a reason.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Meanwhile, Hachibi does not know what SM is.



I know it way better than you



> Minato threw the Kunai and THEN he entered SM.



Or, and I know it sounds crazy to you, that he was already in SM before throwing the kunai.

So, you're basically ignoring Minato's own words that he sucked at it just for your fanfiction of "duh duh, Minato enter SM instantly" is fufilled?

pls go


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

Since when Minato needs SM to overwhelm Itachi ???!


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> I know it way better than you
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- No, you don't. 
- Yes, that dumb, and you should feel bad for saying something so dumb. 
Because Minato clearly entered SM AFTER throwing the Kunai. 

- He said it takes him too long, but this something different from 1 person to another. Tobirama said his clones' FTG is too slow,

 are we going to take that as if they are too slow then they are (with FTG) slower than say a snail? 

pls consider taking comm 101.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - No, you don't.



I do.



> - Yes, that dumb, and you should feel bad for saying something so dumb.
> Because Minato clearly entered SM AFTER throwing the Kunai.



Naw, that's just the order in panel. Or is Gaara's sand > Kamui?

Him entering it instantly ala Hashi completely contradict his latter statement.



> - He said it takes him too long, but this something different from 1 person to another. Tobirama said his clones' FTG is too slow, are we going to take they are too slow then they are slower than say snail?





He considered it slow enough that he never used it in actually combat. that should tell you how shit your argument is in the first place.

Minato's words >>>>>>>>>>  your interpretation



> pls consider taking comm 101.



Pls go wank Boruto


----------



## Yoko (Nov 11, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Madara tryed that directly after Hirutora clash , it's canon without asting any time it's canon in the manga .



Don't even know what you're saying here. 



> Kakashi's laucnhing Kunai speed<<<<Madara's Gudo Dama move speed .



This is what you need to prove.  The scans indicate that the two reached the same location at the same time despite Madara launching his Gedodama first.



> That's why Kakashi was much much closer to Gai .



Even if we go with your idea that Madara was 70m away from Guy, then Kakashi was even farther than 70m away.  The scans explicitly prove this - Guy charged away from Kakashi, then charged a second time after 7th gate activation, and then pushed Madara back even more before launching Hirudora.  The battle was literally moving away from Kakashi, not closer to him.  We later see Madara visible on the same panel as Guy whereas Kakashi is nowhere to be seen on the panel.



> If you say the opposite then you are just trying to invalid logical manga feats because...you aren't feeling better .



Don't get me wrong - I don't actually think Kakashi can throw kunai as fast as Gedodama.  I'm using the same logic you are using by posting outlier feats.  Kakashi's kunai being as fast as a Gedodama falls under the same category as Minato's random kunai throw outspeeding Kamui.



Hussain said:


> Except Minato is THAT much faster than itachi. What feats or shunshin does itachi have to put it anywhere near as fast as Minato's shunshin exactly?



Itachi was clashing and dodging assaults from KCM Naruto and Killer Bee, in addition to keeping pace with SM Kabuto.  I'm okay with Minato being faster than Itachi, but it isn't by a massive margin, and not enough that 3T cannot make up for it.     



> I am giving you an example only. Also, the different between Minato's shunshin and itachi's is far bigger than that of KN0 and Sasuke (who was also powered up with the CS btw, so it was not all the sharingan).



KN0 went from being able to run circles around Sasuke to failing to land a single hit.  There was no CS here - purely 3T.



> and A did get Sasuke as well at the end of the day.



He got him when he had his hand lodged in his gut, which was a feat only possible due to his durability, not speed.  Unless you're talking about V2 Raikage, which would be irrelevant - Minato is not as fast as V2 Raikage with his base speed. 



> None of what you posted is MS jutsu. He only used it 1 against Kakashi. Needless to say, giving those moves are not saying anything, because the clones require more chakra.



He used Tsukuyomi against Kakashi, and later again versus Sasuke, and then used Amaterasu against Jiraiya's toad gut (which is ironically in your signature).



> Yes, crow clones are not in the same quality like the shadow clones. And if I remember correctly we haven't seen them able to use jutsu like the original one (correct me if I got that wrong)



The databook outright says it can use techniques:

A technique that produces a clone by projecting one's own chakra towards dozens of "crows". Because it uses crows as an medium, it requires less chakra then the normal "Shadow Clone Technique," *while still being able to perform techniques*.



> no CS here



I saw that scan already.  There being 20 enemies doesn't mean all 20 of them hurled kunai simultaneously.  There are only 7 SFX clashes on that page.



> by this logic, what itachi does is not out of the ordinary either. Bolt was able to pull that off in 1 day.



I didn't see the movie, so I have no idea about this. 



> Minato throwing his Kunai to get to JJ SS asspulldara was not a team effort, it was him alone.



The team effort was the overall assault, not helping Minato get there. 



> And he was already praised for his fast striking from the fastest man of his time (Tobirama), and we saw him
> do that to V2 A before that as well. It's not outliers when we see it several time and getting praised from the fastest character, that's for a reason.



Striking speed =/= can throw kunai faster than Kamui (which has been highlighted for its speed on multiple occasions).  Look, it's fine if you want to give Minato Kamui-level kunai throws, but you'll have to extend the same courtesy to Kakashi and Rock Lee as well.  You'd have to be consistent in the application of said feats - you can't just single out Minato's and reject all the others.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Explained above. And Minato was showing the whole time anyway when Madara was speaking.


No he wasn't. In most pages he is missing, and he admitted it takes too long to knead chakra for SM. Just connect the fucking dots.



> Genjutsu is not automatic. Minato is way faster than itachi


Conjecture.



> AND a sensor.


So was kabuto, and a perfect sage. And yet he blinded himself to avoid getting genjutsu'd. 



> Also, itachi had EMS Sasuke help.


Not during the part he disarmed and tagged Kabuto.




> it just covering as much is info as possible. But, it's cool that you're already know that at the end
> SM will make itachi gets stomped.


Again conjecture. But just knowing that you think Minato needs SM to win is a step forward. Next thing you know, you'll come to realize Itachi > Minato 



> no CS here
> no need to thank me.


It was at the end of thhe fight, and that just shows he can't create more clones. 
There is nothing indicating that he was physicaly weakened. 



> B knew itachi behind him and forced him away with his sword
> itachi's statement is irrelevant to what happened as B was not surprised or taken off-guard.


B did that after Itachi warned him. But he was able to get behind B without B noticing. Minato can only replicate that with Hirashin 



> He is one of them, and use what they are known for. Actually, from the relevant uchiha, itachi is the weakest one.


Not when it comes to genjutsu.



> There is absolutely no need to assume that Minato will fall in one to begin with.
> Madara needed 5 EMS/Rinnegan clones with Susanoo to put A under his genjutsu.


Madara doesn't have finger or crow genjutsu, and A has much faster body speed and reactions than Minato.



> Why should we assume that itachi's eyes are going to be fast enough to build up the chakra and use it before Minato can sense and avoid when he is much faster than itachi?


Because there is no need ot assume that Minato is faster than Itachi to begin with.



> Also, B is not even the weakest one here. Kurnai was fast enough to break his Genjutsu AND reacts to his attack. Am I suppose to think Minato is also slower than Kurnai?


Itachi wasn't serious against Kurenai. Also the genjutsu he used against Kurenai was her own genjutsu, which was a fairly weak genjutsu that can be simply broken by biting your lip.

But we know for a fact that if Hachibee didn't instantly break Itachi's 3 tomoe genjutsu, B wouldn't be able to counter the upcoming attack.

Like I said, Minato isn't a perfect jin here, so he isn't instantly breaking genjutsu from a guy who is the most hyped for genjutsu skill. Its doubtful that he can break it, let alone break it instantly.



> "Most" is not an argument. And when glancing over the pages, they are mostly* itachi's fans anyway*.  Not credible (at least when it comes to him when they say stuff as him talking on the 5 Kages, 3 Sannin ....etc etc)


And the only 2 or 3 people who think otherwise are die hard Minato fans. You shouldn't talk about credibility, imo.



hbcaptain said:


> Since when Minato needs SM to overwhelm Itachi ???!



Since you guys want him to use it so badly, when he admitedly can't use it.

Pretty sure you guys don't think he stands a chance without SM. Which warms my heart.



OutlawJohn said:


> You and Strat are reminding why I quit this section of the forum for 2 years.



Calling me a fanboy in every sentence doesn't give your opinion any more credibility. Actually, it is the otherway around, shows how weak your post is. Nothing substantial in it.

You've grown rusty my friend. I think you should go back to your hiatus, for your own sake.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

> [=Hachibi;54705296]I do.


You being delusional. 



> Naw, that's just the order in panel. Or is Gaara's sand > Kamui?
> 
> Him entering it instantly ala Hashi completely contradict his latter statement.



So, you're saying that's the order in panel, but in your imagination it's not the real order? 
even tho Kishi taking the extra effort for you to show you the suffix for appearance?  

- Man, I don't care about the butthurt in those statements you say. We are SHOWN that he did.
End of discussion, no need to waste our time with your overactive imagination. 


> He considered it slow enough that *he never used it in actually comba*t. that should tell you how shit your argument is in the first place.



haven't I already dumbed that shit with Viz translation? He never said the bold. Please try to open
your eyes, I have already posted the page. 
AFTER

I must admire how you dodge the FTG question tho. lol 
Dat Minato with every feat of his making people get butthurt. lol



> Minato's words >>>>>>>>>>  your interpretation


Minato's feats >>>>>>>>>>> your interpretation

It's quite irony tho. You are saying this now, and when it coems to his feat with Gai, you get that butthurt over it with your interpretation. 

Wouldn't you agree that seems hypocrite of you?  




> Pls go wank Boruto



When the topic comes to him. 


---
I might reply to the rest of you if I stayed interested. No time now.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

> Minato's feats >>>>>>>>>>> your interpretation
> 
> It's quite irony tho. You are saying this now, and when it coems to his feat with Gai, you get that butthurt over it with your interpretation.
> 
> Wouldn't you agree that seems hypocrite of you?


Whut ?


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 11, 2015)

Minato wouldn't even consider SM vs Itachi. He isn't that stupid to try high-risk/low-reward moves.


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Calling me a fanboy in every sentence doesn't give your opinion any more credibility. Actually, it is the otherway around, shows how weak your post is. Nothing substantial in it.
> 
> You've grown rusty my friend. I think you should go back to your hiatus, for your own sake.



Lol, nice deflection. You've yet to answer a single point that I posted. I'm definitely thinking on it.

1) These arguments about speed in reactions are pointless. Minato has better feats and portrayal in this department, but neither of them has a significant enough advantage for it to actually mean anything.

2) Minato can enter Sage Mode very quickly. Litte prep time required.  Him stating that it's not his preferred method of combat as Strat has little baring. He doesn't like it because usually Hiraishin does the job. We know Minato's fighting style is all about ending the fight instantaneously; why go into Sage Mode when Hirashin is the fastest option? No reason not to enter Sage Mode if he knows Itachi was good enough to murder his entire clan. For that matter, no reason he wouldn't enter it when he realized he couldn't overwhelm Itachi in CCQ.

3) Unrestricted Ma and Pa is nightmare for Itachi. If he begins to overwhelm Minato with his mix of Katons, Suitons and Genjutsu, Minato's gonna bring em out. Once again, in character does not mean retarded. Itachi sans Mangekyo is still a Kage-level ninja and Minato's can bring out the duo if need be. Once they're there, Itach has to deal with 3 Senjutsu users. Ma and Pa's combination techniques shit on his base Ninjutsu with absolute ease and counter his Genjutsu prowess.

I appreciate that you still remember me. My war against the Itachi fanbase will continue. I love you guys though.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Whut ?



what  do you mean whut? 

I am just talking about the regular bullshit people say when it comes to Minato's feats. 
Examples, 

*Spoiler*: __ 




1- Minato Vs Obito.

O.M.G!! that battle does NOT count as feat, why? Because Obito just came out from the madhouse, and he controlled Kurama KNOWING that he is ONLY a burden on him that will hold him back. It's true, that Minato destroy his control over Kurama, but then Obito felt that Kurama will give his apology to the villagers, and as such retreat. Therefore, it does not count for Minato's speed.

2- Minato Vs A & B!

Dear Lord, no! Minato cannot be faster than A, that was YOUNG A, obviously A is faster than him now. Hence, his feats do not count because young A is featless! He also can't take on either one alone, so how can we accept that he was fighting both? That's bullshit, that fanfiction! 

3- Minato & The Hokages!

Lol, Minato is faster than Tobirama? Absolutely not! It was just Tobirama encouraging him as a grandfather will do to his grandson, so adorable!   in reality tho, whatever statement about shinshin/FTG he said does not count. WE know better than Kishi and the manga! 

4- Minato & 8th Gate Gai!

OMG! the guy who was hyped/shown to be the fastest for all those years, outpacing Gai!!!! That's ATROCIOUS! It must be fan-fiction, our imagination! We cannot accept that as a feat, otherwise, Minato will be put higher than what we want him to be.

5- Minato & Juubi's TBB!

He MUST have been using Kurama's chakra! It cannot be by his own chakra even IF Kurama did not sense any of his chakra before, but fuck it! He must have used it!

6- Minato taking JJ SM asspulldara's kick!

Madara MUST have been holding back because he was worried about Minato's safety! if he REALLY
wanted to, his kick would have cut Minato in half. So, we can't accept that as a durability feat.   





and if I have time I would have going on with too much nonsense. 
It's just Hachibi, takes his interpretation whenever it suits him, and leave it whenever it does not.


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

Yeah , sorry it's just a misunderstanding .


----------



## Turrin (Nov 11, 2015)

Elementally They are pretty evenly matched, both can use Katons and Fuutons, and while Itachi's Suitons give him an edge against Minato's Katons, spreading water across the battlefield make Minato's Raitons more deadly. Speed wise I think they are relatively equal, Minato is quicker, but this is off set by Itachi's Sharingan; and I'd venture the same thing is true in Taijutsu and weapons skills. Itachi also has Genjutsu, but this is offset by Minato's sensing capabilities and bushin. Minato has large stamina supply, but Itachi seems a bit more clever and probably has the edge in chakra control, though in drawn out matches Minato should still prevail. Both also have major double edge sword techniques in Izanami and Shiki Fuujin, Izanami is better in terms of drawbacks, but a-lot more difficult to execute. However, one main issue I see for Itachi is that he has no real answer to the raw power of Minato's Rasengan, and because of how evenly matched they are he'll likely struggle in CQC because of this. With that said Itachi has the edge in Bushin with his various types of clones that ether conserve chakra or have the nasty explosive effect as well as the strategic edge over the more goofy Minato.

Up to this point I'd say they are fairly equal, with the match likely ending in ether Itachi strategically outmatching Minato, Izanami, Shiki Fuujin, or Rasengan overpowering Itachi once he becomes exhausted quicker. So I'd give 50/50 odds, though if Itachi is sick Minato has better odds overall.

The problem with this match though is that the OP did not restrict summoning, once we give Minato access to his summons, the match shifts massive in his favor. 

Minato using FCD is something Itachi can't handle w/o MS, and is GG. Like wise Itachi w/o MS lacks the necessary Jutsu to defend elemental attacks on the scale of Bunta's Drilling Water Bullets and Oil (which Minato can ignite since he has the Katon Element). Itachi also lacks an effective means to bringing down Boss-Sized Toads in general, as Genjutsu is countered by the partner method, while Shuriken to the eyes will be countered by Minato, and Itachi trying to deal with potentially multiple Boss Toads swinging their massive weapons at him while, at the same time having to keep track of Minato and Minato KB, to avoid being hit with Rasengan, is too much. And so on...

The other problem is SM is not restricted here. Minato may only be able to use a short burst of SM, but a short burst is enough to overwhelm a non MS Itachi, as the overall physical boost and danger sensing will ensure Minato's Senpo Rasengan lands, and Itachi already can't handle the raw power of a regular Rasengan. Granted this isn't quite as damming as the summons, because he can use Bushin to attempt to avoid the bursts of SM, but it  certainly gives Minato a definitive edge, that pushes things outside of the realm of 50/50, adding this ontop of the summons ensures Minato's win.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> You being delusional.



Less than you.



> So, you're saying that's the order in panel, but in your imagination it's not the real order?
> even tho Kishi taking the extra effort for you to show you the suffix for appearance?



Because that align with his latter statement



> - Man, I don't care about the butthurt in those statements you say. We are SHOWN that he did.
> End of discussion, no need to waste our time with your overactive imagination.



And the guy's mouth latter told us that you're incorrect

:





> facepalm
> haven't I already dumbed that shit with Viz translation? He never said the bold. Please try to open
> your eyes, I have already posted the page.
> AFTER



>Legit doesn't realise that it say what I said





> I must admire how you dodge the FTG question tho. lol
> Dat Minato with every feat of his making people get butthurt. lol



FTG's restricted



> Minato's feats >>>>>>>>>>> your interpretation



>My interpretation
>Manga legit told us that Minato sucked at Senjutsu





> It's quite irony tho. You are saying this now, and when it coems to his feat with Gai, you get that butthurt over it with your interpretation.
> 
> Wouldn't you agree that seems hypocrite of you?



How's that hypocritical?

Minato himself say it suck. The 8th Gate Gai thing was an coordinated assault. Or are you going to tell me SM Minato <<<<< Base Minato?



> When the topic comes to him.



That appeal to motive tho.

That's it people! Since I disagree with Hussain on Minato/Naruto/Bolt thing, I'm an Minato hater, Naruto hater and Boruto hater comfirmed!


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 11, 2015)

Summons and his non existent fanfiction feats with elemental ninjutsu isn't  doing anything to Itachi, sorry. 

And he won't even know he's caught in Itachi's genjutsu until it's too late, go ask Deidara, Orochimaru, Sasuke and Naruto.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 11, 2015)

SM, Fukasaku and Shima... you people don't consider these legitimate options Minato will consider? Especially considering he'll know about Itachi's reputation while being unable to use his ace jutsu?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 11, 2015)

Fukusaku & Shima are plot devices.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

> [=Hachibi;54705679]Less than you.


If that makes you sleep at night. I am not going back and forth with this nonsense. 



> Because that align with his latter statement


The marks on his eyes were just shown ON FUCKING PANEL, what part of that do you not understand? 


> And the guy's mouth latter told us that you're incorrect


Where did he claim "I gathered SM off-panel" or even hinted at? 
:


> >Legit doesn't realise that it say what I said




> says "he NEVER used it"
> Minato says "did not use it MUCH"
> He thinks it's the same.

May God have mercy on your soul. 


> FTG's restricted



Please, try to comprehend what I am saying, ok?
my question was about Tobirama saying "the clone's FTG is too slow" should we consider that to
be the clones' FTG is slower than even the regular shunshin because he said "Too slow" or does it
mean in comparison to original FTG?  


> >My interpretation
> >Manga legit told us that Minato sucked at Senjutsu








> How's that hypocritical?
> 
> Minato himself say it suck. The 8th Gate Gai thing was an coordinated assault. Or are you going to tell me SM Minato <<<<< Base Minato?



> can't differentiate between FTG's speed and movement's speed after a year of the manga's end.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Fukusaku & Shima are plot devices.



Sounds like an excuse not to argue their use.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 11, 2015)

They've got alot of use.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

I find it funny that altho Minato stated that he does not use SM much, and even the Pa/Ma are their to take that drawback away (not being able to maintain it for long) people will try to say he will never use it regardless.

On the other hand, itachi saying the Izanami is too dangerous to use, and obviously never using it before Kabuto's battle in any fight, people will directly point at it when you put him against characters like Danzo and Obito. 

and even beyond them, making it a 1-hit K.O'd jutsu to any character even tho it does not work like that. lol


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I find it funny that altho Minato stated that he does not use SM much, and even the Pa/Ma are their to take that drawback away (not being able to maintain it for long) people will try to say he will never use it regardless.
> 
> On the other hand, itachi saying the Izanami is too dangerous to use, and obviously never using it before Kabuto's battle in any fight, people will directly point at it when you put him against characters like Danzo and Obito.
> 
> and even beyond them, making it a 1-hit K.O'd jutsu to any character even tho it does not work like that. lol



At least Itachi can use his jutsu properly.

You are hilarious.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2015)

Minato didn't use SM when the lives of his child and wife and all of Konoha were at stake.
He didn't summon Ma and Pa either.

Then he says he didn't use SM in actual combat and it is basically shit.

And people argue that SM against Itachi is a legit option.

my fucking sides.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> If that makes you sleep at night. I am not going back and forth with this nonsense.




I sleep good enough without it thanks you very much



> The marks on his eyes were just shown ON FUCKING PANEL, what part of that do you not understand?
> 
> Where did he claim "I gathered SM off-panel" or even hinted at?



His statement, which to seem to ignore.



> > says "he NEVER used it"
> > Minato says "did not use it MUCH"
> > He thinks it's the same.



Why do you think he didn't use it much?

Because it's situational at best. SM would have increased his chance to survive the Kurama rampage

Connect the dots





> Please, try to comprehend what I am saying, ok?
> my question was about Tobirama saying "the clone's FTG is too slow" should we consider that to
> be the clones' FTG is slower than even the regular shunshin because he said "Too slow" or does it
> mean in comparison to original FTG?



Oh. Then why do you compare this to FTG when they're different?

Tobi saying that FTG is too slow was because of the situation.

Minato saying that it take too much time means that. It take too much time against guys on Itachi's level to make it pratical



> > can't differentiate between FTG's speed and movement's speed after a year of the manga's end.



>Implying FTG was restricted


----------



## Vice (Nov 11, 2015)

So... is KCM not restricted here?

Edit: see it under conditions, never mind.


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## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

> [=Hachibi;54707648]I sleep good enough without it thanks you very much


Good. 




> His statement, which to seem to ignore.


I did not ignore shit. I am linking his statement to his feats. Meanwhile, you are taking one over the other in the way that suits you instead of putting things together. 



> Why do you think he didn't use it much?
> Because it's situational at best. SM would have increased his chance to survive the Kurama rampage
> Connect the dots



What the fuck does Kurama has with SM? Please don't be retarded. 
If he used SM, will that make the SF not kill him? 
he was going to use that either way because he wanted KUSHINA TO SEE HER KID! 

SM was irrelevant. 


> Oh. Then why do you compare this to FTG when they're different?
> Tobi saying that FTG is too slow was because of the situation.
> Minato saying that it take too much time means that. It take too much time against guys on Itachi's level to make it pratical


What situation? You mean if they were in another situation the FTG will automatically get faster? 



> Itachi's level to make it pratical


That has got to be the most idiotic thing I have ever read in this year. The guy used it against fucking madara, and he has the nerves to say a bug like itachi will be consider a worst situation. Dear God...  




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato didn't use SM when the lives of his child and wife and all of Konoha were at stake.
> He didn't summon Ma and Pa either.
> 
> Then he says he didn't use SM in actual combat and it is basically shit.
> ...



When did he need any of them? 
Are you saying that SM will make him immortal or take the SF's drawback away? 
Or was he unable to seal Kurama, and SM will make that possible?

Or was he unable to hit Obito and needed the extra speed boost from SM? 

Or perhaps you're suggesting Ma/Pa's tongues/elements were needed against Kurama? 



> Then he says he didn't use SM in actual combat and it is basically shit.



I guess it common among itachi's fans to have weak vision, huh? because I already posted the page several times. 
I suggest you take Hachibi's eyes, or he takes your so we can get over the vision problem that
you guys have.


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## Bloo (Nov 11, 2015)

Itachi wins this as less of his arsenal is based on MS in comparison to Minato's arsenal without Hiraishin. Minato only beats Itachi in base stats in terms of speed, and that will be made up for by 3T sharingan. Itachi's use of genjutsu, more varied ninjutsu, and superior weapons mastery will secure him a win in this battle.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato didn't use SM when the lives of his child and wife and all of Konoha were at stake.
> He didn't summon Ma and Pa either.
> 
> Then he says he didn't use SM in actual combat and it is basically shit.
> ...



I don't get you. You give reputation knowledge: going by Kakashi, Itachi has a decent rep without his MS. 

You took away Hiraishin from Minato. Now rather than expect him to find an alternative to fight someone with such a rep, you think he's going to just walk in carelessly. 

SM was used on Madara because his options were very limited... his options are limited here. If your notion of Minato not having much aside from Hiraishin and Kurama is true... the logical thing for Minato would be to summon the Ni Dai Sennin.

But it makes sense to you that Minato tries nothing like that with his options being so limited.


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato didn't use SM when the lives of his child and wife and all of Konoha were at stake.
> He didn't summon Ma and Pa either.
> 
> Then he says he didn't use SM in actual combat and it is basically shit.
> ...





When exactly was either of these things useful during his battle with Obito? Was SM going to make him any faster than Hiraishin? Were Ma and Pa gonna be able to fight of the Nine Tails?

Grimm, you're hilarious. Minato knows that this kid is strong enough to destroy the entire Uchiha clan by himself. And he's just going to walk in like, "Fuck it, I'll fight him in base without SM or using any summonings. Who needs Hiraishin when you're the main character's dad?"

You're working under the assumption that Minato is an absolute retard.

You're sides hurt because you've been drinking too much fanboy juice.

If you want a scenario where Itachi is guranteed to win, then why not just right one and stop pretending you want a fair fight where Itachi wins off his own merits rather than fanboyism. Here's  one for you: Itachi unrestricted vs Minato right after using Shiki Fujin to seal the Nine Tails. Easy enough.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 11, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> When exactly was either of these things useful during his battle with Obito? Was SM going to make him any faster than Hiraishin? Were Ma and Pa gonna be able to fight of the Nine Tails?



 Frog Katas certainly would've been beneficial against Obito.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

Frog Kata isn't doing any shit to Kamui .


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 11, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Frog Kata isn't doing any shit to Kamui .



 So when Obito solidifies to grab him, you think he'll suddenly phase through an attack at the proper time even if he has no way of seeing it?


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## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2015)

FTG lvl2>>Frog Kata , it' even allowing hi to mark him .


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## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

the punch will get right through it if Minato used it, genius. 

Well, I guess SM is useless to Naruto as well and he will never use it normally because he did not use it against Obito.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> the punch will get right through it if Minato used it, genius.
> 
> Well, I guess SM is useless to Naruto as well and he will never use it normally because he did not use it against Obito.



 Frog Kata will not slip through Obito if he's solidifying to grab Minato.


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## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Frog Kata will not slip through Obito if he's solidifying to grab Minato.



and is he going to solidify with Minato's hand still passing through him?


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> and is he going to solidify with Minato's hand still passing through him?



 Who said it would have to pass through him?

 Frog Katas utilizes natural energy as an extension of his body. His fist doesn't have to make contact with Obito in order to use it. Actually, Minato's fist was a few inches away from his face and even Obito was tempted to grab him, so Frog Katas could have certainly helped as shown here:

Kakashi realizes

 You're making the assumption that Minato's fist would literally be going through Obito when Obito was shown to have been faster overall.


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## thechickensage (Nov 11, 2015)

Minato goes into combat knowing that he won't use FTG.

So he will look for an opportunity to use Sage Mode.  


People can say "Minato admitted to being bad at sage mode," but Minato also showed that he is a perfect sage (no frog transformation), which means he was superior to Jiraiya in terms of balancing nature chakra.  Minato is very self-deprecatory as well.  He often belittles himself, it's his personality. 

GIVEN that he won't be blinking around the map, OF COURSE he would go for Sage Mode.  

And Minato is just as intelligent and naturally gifted as Itachi.  They were both blessed with with genius, skill, and incredible powers of observation.

Sage mode.
Froggy friends.
Far more chakra.
Opponent has his primary technique nerfed.  

Minato wins.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Frog Katas certainly would've been beneficial against Obito.



I'm going to go ahead and say only Naruto could use those ghost punches, not Minato or Jiraiya.


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## ShadoLord (Nov 11, 2015)

Minato would win more often than not. 

Like no mangekyo sharingan at all?


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 11, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm going to go ahead and say only Naruto could use those ghost punches, not Minato or Jiraiya.



 It was stated in the Databook that Jiraiya could.

 Unfortunately, I can't prove it, but others have posted the Databook entry in the past.


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 11, 2015)

why are people underestimating the use of crows. believe it or not its a huge advantage to stop your opponent from fighting. itachi, shadow clones, crow clones and a massive flock of crows attacking and surrounding minato there isnt much he can do.


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## Rocky (Nov 11, 2015)

Lord Aizen said:


> why are people underestimating the use of crows. believe it or not its a huge advantage to stop your opponent from fighting.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 12, 2015)

Lord Aizen said:


> why are people underestimating the use of crows. believe it or not its a huge advantage to stop your opponent from fighting. itachi, shadow clones, crow clones and a massive flock of crows attacking and surrounding minato there isnt much he can do.



Itachi is underrated in general. But yes, the crows are a big deal. Itachi used them to stall Sasuke, blindside Kabuto and shunshin blitz Hebi Sasuke.
By themselves they aren't a huge threat(enough to distract and disarm a perfect sage tho), but they are the perfect tool to obscure vision or a set up for a follow up attack.


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## Trojan (Nov 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It was stated in the Databook that Jiraiya could.
> 
> Unfortunately, I can't prove it, but others have posted the Databook entry in the past.


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## ARGUS (Nov 12, 2015)

Minato should win this. 



NarutoX28 said:


> Minato gets demolished.
> 
> * His speed and reflexes are only par with Base Raikage's and Taka Sasuke* who's *far slower and less reflexive than Itachi reacted to V1 Raikage's speed at the last second. *Itachi's also an expert at planning moves in advance as shown against Hebi Sasuke and SM Kabuto, both of which had viable counters against his arsenal.



What the hell??!. What the hell!

Minato mentally reacted to V2 Ays top shunshin from a distance of under 20m and managed to physically react by tossing a kunai up before Ay can even cross that distance. 

MS Sasuke on the other hand got lol  blitzed by Ay with no mental or physical reaction. 
yet we are saying that Minato is only on par with Base raikage and taka sasuke of all people in speed and reflexes of all things? 

Tobirama himself (faster than living madara, and hashirama, who are faster than Itachi) admitted inferiority to minato in shunshin. Reflexes come with this too. 
this alone throws your entire argument out the window 

Minato >>  itachi in speed, and reflexes. 
FTG has got nothing to do with minatos reactions since minato still has to mentally react to use it accordingly. and his shunshin speed is already at a level above tobiramas which is more than enough for me to think that minato would be the one tagging itachi 





> Furthermore, Itachi's hand seal speed not only outsped 2 skilled users with Precognition, but also outsped SM Kabuto's perception as he couldn't perceive the seals Itachi was making and thus, couldn't determine if his jutsu was a Suiton or a Katon, so Itachi's capable of pressuring Minato with clone feints or mid-range ninjutsu and will capitalize on any opportunity he can get to disarm Minato.



hand seal speed is useless when any and every attack that itachi throws will be reacted to 
itachis elemental jutsus lack tthe scale to be even any factor in this battle 
add that with clones that are surrounded and attacking iitachi from multiple angles. then we get to the conclusion that this doesnt happen 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> *Kabuto's retarded*.


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## Trojan (Nov 12, 2015)

blocking V2 Jins tails without any visible damage

the idiot does not know that if he attacked the clone it will simply disappear.


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## ARGUS (Nov 12, 2015)

Hussain said:


> blocking V2 Jins tails without any visible damage
> 
> the idiot does not know that if he attacked the clone it will simply disappear.



he didnnt think that naruto was a clone. thats why. 
honestly based on what we have seen. hes one of the smartest characters in the manga 
perhaps even smarter than minato in some ways. 

callling him retarded of all things is seriously wrong


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## Trojan (Nov 12, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> he didnnt think that naruto was a clone. thats why.
> honestly based on what we have seen. hes one of the smartest characters in the manga
> perhaps even smarter than minato in some ways.
> 
> callling him retarded of all things is seriously wrong



He knows it's a clone. 
blocking V2 Jins tails without any visible damage


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## ARGUS (Nov 12, 2015)

Hussain said:


> He knows it's a clone.
> blocking V2 Jins tails without any visible damage



That was clearly after the whole battle when Naruto was confirmed to be approaching Tobi


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Frog Katas certainly would've been beneficial against Obito.





NarutoX28 said:


> So when Obito solidifies to grab him, you think he'll suddenly phase through an attack at the proper time even if he has no way of seeing it?



1) Sage Mode doesn't mean Frog Katas.

2) Frog Katas are chakra if I'm not mistaken. Sharingan eyes see that pretty well.

3) Again, Minato's style of combat is all about high speed murder. When you have Hiraishin for high speed murder, nothing else is really relevant.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 12, 2015)

^
You are mistaken as always.


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 12, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> You are mistaken as always.



Lol, I see you haven't gone any better at debating in the last two years Grimm. Why not, you know, prove me wrong?

Why would Frog Kata's have been useful against Tobi, when Minato beat him just fine without it? Why would Minato ever resort to SM, which he doesn't like to use, if Hiraishin is easily available? If it's not easily available, why would he walk into a battle with someone strong enough to wipe out the entire Uchiha clan and say, fuck it, base Taijutsu will do?

Again, if you want Itachi just to win, write the scenario to where it's impossible for him to lose.

EX: Itachi with EMS against Minato's corpse.

See, no room for debate and argument there. I'd agree with you anytime. If you don't want to be so drastic, then just restrict Summonings and SM. Realize, you're being unfair to Itachi in this matchup. You took his three greatest weapons and only took one weapon from Minato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It was stated in the Databook that Jiraiya could.
> 
> Unfortunately, I can't prove it, but others have posted the Databook entry in the past.



He's a user of Frog Katas, but on the same level as Naruto? Evidently, he wasn't. Naruto used the ghost punches to overcome a situation Jiraiya said he'd die in. That is evidence that Naruto is on a different level compared to Jiraiya and Minato when it comes to frog katas.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 12, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Lol, I see you haven't gone any better at debating in the last two years Grimm. Why not, you know, prove me wrong?
> 
> Why would Frog Kata's have been useful against Tobi, when Minato beat him just fine without it? Why would Minato ever resort to SM, which he doesn't like to use, if Hiraishin is easily available? If it's not easily available, why would he walk into a battle with someone strong enough to wipe out the entire Uchiha clan and say, fuck it, base Taijutsu will do?
> 
> ...



I was referring to point two. Thought you'd understand. But you didn't. Overdramatic as always.

Anyways, Frog Kata aren't chakra and Sharingan can't see them, because they are made of nature energy and Rinnegan couldn't see them.


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## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2015)

I'm still wondering where the "instant SM Minato" come form.


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 12, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I was referring to point two. Thought you'd understand. But you didn't. Overdramatic as always.
> 
> Anyways, Frog Kata aren't chakra and Sharingan can't see them, because they are made of nature energy and Rinnegan couldn't see them.



Ahh, well, I said "If I'm not mistaken since I wasn't sure". Haven't read Naruto manga in quite some time now. But I have the faint memory of Naruto snapping Fat Pein's neck with a Frog Kata. Doesn't change the basic calculus. SM was useless against Tobi, so Minato didn't use it.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 12, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> I'm still wondering where the "instant SM Minato" come form.



Kids nowadays have crazy imaginations I guess.



OutlawJohn said:


> Ahh, well, I said "If I'm not mistaken since I wasn't sure". Haven't read Naruto manga in quite some time now. But I have the faint memory of Naruto snapping Fat Pein's neck with a Frog Kata. Doesn't change the basic calculus. SM was useless against Tobi, so Minato didn't use it.



Frog Kata's could actually oneshot Obito. Obito waits until his opponents makes contact with him to phase out, and since he can't see the nature energy, he gets hit before he can phase out.
But I guess Minato didn't feel like using an "instantaneous" buff that makes him indefinitely stronger without any drawbacks.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Nov 12, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Frog Kata's could actually oneshot Obito. Obito waits until his opponents makes contact with him to phase out, and since he can't see the nature energy, he gets hit before he can phase out.
> But I guess Minato didn't feel like using an "instantaneous" buff that makes him indefinitely stronger without any drawbacks.



Again, you ignored the question. Stop sidestepping. Minato made clear that he doesn't like to use SM. We've only seen him use it when Hiraishin isn't doing shit (against God Madara). Why would he pull out against an opponent he's perfectly capable of beating without it? Why would Minato risk taking the time to stand still to go SM against Tobi, who can teleport him into a another dimension? I mean, SM isn't going to make him any faster than Hiraishin. Or is the strength augmentation going to make his punches hurt any more than Rasengan. So for what logical reason would he have used it?

Also, you're assuming that Minato can even do Frog Kata's in SM. Neither Minato, Jiraiya nor Hashirama have been shown to use them. Sure, Jiraiya wasn't a perfect sage. But Minato and Hashirama are certainly Perfect Sages.

And I'm just gonna lol at the notion that Tobi, who is physically augmented by Hashirama's DNA and Zetsu's weird body, was going to get oneshotted by Frog Katas.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 12, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Again, you ignored the question. Stop sidestepping. Minato made clear that he doesn't like to use SM. We've only seen him use it when Hiraishin isn't doing shit (against God Madara). Why would he pull out against an opponent he's perfectly capable of beating without it? Why would Minato risk taking the time to stand still to go SM against Tobi, who can teleport him into a another dimension? I mean, SM isn't going to make him any faster than Hiraishin. Or is the strength augmentation going to make his punches hurt any more than Rasengan. So for what logical reason would he have used it?
> 
> Also, you're assuming that Minato can even do Frog Kata's in SM. Neither Minato, Jiraiya nor Hashirama have been shown to use them. Sure, Jiraiya wasn't a perfect sage. But Minato and Hashirama are certainly Perfect Sages.
> 
> And I'm just gonna lol at the notion that Tobi, who is physically augmented by Hashirama's DNA and Zetsu's weird body, was going to get oneshotted by Frog Katas.


Minato didn't use SM against Madara because Hirashin wasn't doing shit, he used it because only sage chakra was able to hurt him. So it was his only choice, like a desperation attempt.

I thought you believed Minato could go SM instantly.

Rasengan didn't one shot him either, but hitting him hard with an attack that he has no way of anticipating might actually do serious damage. 

Someone else brought up frog Kata's and you commented on it. I wasn't debating whether Minato could use them or not. I was debating what would happen if we assumed he could use them.


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 12, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato didn't use SM against Madara because Hirashin wasn't doing shit, he used it because only sage chakra was able to hurt him. So it was his only choice, like a desperation attempt.
> 
> I thought you believed Minato could go SM instantly.



The manga suggests it: than Madara's. Minato is a perfect Sage as can clearly be seen by his face. Other perfect Sages are able to pop into Sage Mode very quickly. Instantly may be a stretch, but certainly easily.

Second, you repeated what I said. Yes, Minato used SM out of desperation. Why? Well, his other jutsu's were worthless and SM was the only way to go.



> Rasengan didn't one shot him either, but hitting him hard with an attack that he has no way of anticipating might actually do serious damage.



Did he have a way to anticipate Rasengan? Now if a surprise Rasengan could not oneshot him, then why use a suprise Frog Kata which is much weaker? Seems like a useless waste of time an energy, no? And considering what we know about Minato, we know that his fighting style is based around efficiency. Why go into Sage Mode at all against Tobi? The speed boost wouldn't matter because he has Hiraishin. The strength boost wouldn't matter because his base Rasengan is stronger than his fists anyway?

I'm just saying. You're argument that Minato won't use SM or Ma and Pa in this scenario against Itachi is pretty baseless.



> Someone else brought up frog Kata's and you commented on it. I wasn't debating whether Minato could use them or not. I was debating what would happen if we assumed he could use them.



It's honestly irrelevant to the topic.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 12, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> I'm still wondering where the "instant SM Minato" come form.



From this page
[2]

you just need to open your eyes. 

but I guess in case of a potential butthurt assumption 
this page should help your case
[2]

I mean, he CLEARLY was absorbing the SM chakra in this panel.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2015)

I'm not butthurt at all. 

It's just that you won't accept the truth 

Your second link proves nothing considering he was standing still 

In fact, I have a question for you Hussain: If Minato could "instantly" go SM, then why was he basically dependant on his son for Senjutsu chakra during the Jewbito fight when he can _just do it himself_?


----------



## Trojan (Nov 12, 2015)

> Your second link proves nothing considering he was standing still



That's what I am saying. I agree with you, he clearly was absorbing the chakra there. I mean, God knows, it's identical to when
Naruto was absorbing the chakra for SM as well. 
[2]

Only Minato's fanboys wouldn't be able to see the similarity between Minato in that panel and Naruto in the last panel here. 



> then why was he basically dependant on his son for Senjutsu chakra during the Jewbito fight when he can just do it himself?


Naruto can keep it. 

and frankly, I do believe that Kishi was holding them back seeing how Kurama also can collect SM MASSIVELY as we have seen in the last battle, 
but why he did not do that earlier? Plot.


----------



## Hachibi (Nov 12, 2015)

Hussain said:


> That's what I am saying. I agree with you, he clearly was absorbing the chakra there. I mean, God knows, it's identical to when
> Naruto was absorbing the chakra for SM as well.
> [2]



I never knew that closing your eyes was officially an SM requirement 




> Naruto can keep it.



That wouldn't have mattered since Minato only did two attacks in BM: Odama Rasengan (which was blocked) and Bijuudama (which was canceled because Shinju)



> and frankly, I do believe that Kishi was holding them back seeing how Kurama also can collect SM MASSIVELY as we have seen in the last battle,



>Giving RSM Nardo's feat to Minato


Not to mention that it's actually a bad thing to absorb too much Senjutsu as Preta showed.



> but why he did not do that earlier? Plot.



>Plot


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 12, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> The manga suggests it: [2]. Minato is a perfect Sage as can clearly be seen by his face. Other perfect Sages are able to pop into Sage Mode very quickly. Instantly may be a stretch, but certainly easily.
> 
> Second, you repeated what I said. Yes, Minato used SM out of desperation. Why? Well, his other jutsu's were worthless and SM was the only way to go.
> 
> ...




I see contradiction. Earlier you said :


> Why would Minato risk taking the time to stand still to go SM against Tobi


If it is instant, like you are claiming now, why would this be a risk ?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 12, 2015)

^ 

 Minato fanboys at their worst.


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## DarkPower19 (Nov 12, 2015)

Minato. He has the Rasengan, Natural speed, Contract whit the toads and Sennin Modo (not controled)


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 12, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I see contradiction. Earlier you said :
> 
> If it is instant, like you are claiming now, why would this be a risk ?



Stop grasping for straws. I already answered this. I said the Manga suggests that's instant. But it's hard to prove either way. That doesn't change the basic calculus of the fact that SM was useless in the fight against Tobi and Minato had no reason to even consider using it.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 12, 2015)

Instantaneous = Taking too long to knead Chakra.

 Makes absolutely no sense.

 Not even BM Naruto could accumulate Natural Energy instantaneously. To assume Minato can when he stated otherwise is ridiculous.


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## thechickensage (Nov 12, 2015)

There are easy options for Minato to enter sage mode: he can use use smoke or a flashy jutsu as an opportunity to make clones clone(s) to fight while he kneads chakra from a hidden or out of reach position.

He definitely can't do it instantly, but like OutlawJohn said, he is a perfect sage (no froggy transformation).  Meaning that when you compare his sage mode to Jiraiya, he is superior at balancing nature chakra with his own chakra. 

In my mind, Jiraiya's can last longer bc he has far more chakra than Minato.  

But Minato doesn't use sage mode that often simply bc 1) he has usually won by the time he would have activated SM in the first place (a few seconds), and 2) he loves constant motion in his combat style

If you take away FTG, OF COURSE he would favor SM activation vs an opponent as strong as Itachi.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 13, 2015)

thechickensage said:
			
		

> In my mind, Jiraiya's can last longer bc he has far more chakra than Minato.


No , Jiraya can't maintain his sage mode alone , he needs Fukasaku and Shima according to him .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 13, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Stop grasping for straws. I already answered this. I said the Manga suggests that's instant. But it's hard to prove either way. That doesn't change the basic calculus of the fact that SM was useless in the fight against Tobi and Minato had no reason to even consider using it.



You should look up what "grasping at straws" mean. You seem to use it alot without knowing its meaning.

You say SM is instant. Then you say it would be risky to use it against Tobi because it would require Minato to stand still for a while.
And when I confront you about this contradiction, you blame me for "grasping for straws."

Either explain, or concede the point. You can't have it both ways.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 13, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't get you. You give reputation knowledge: going by Kakashi, Itachi has a decent rep without his MS.
> 
> You took away Hiraishin from Minato. Now rather than expect him to find an alternative to fight someone with such a rep, you think he's going to just walk in carelessly.
> 
> ...



Such Beauty in this Post. Best thing ive read all day. 

Pretty much addresses the wankery and biad of all itavhi fans. Lets restrict minato and restrict any form of ingenuity and improvisation and make this matchup completely one sided. Lets restrict minatos best technique and also restrict any forms of alternative methods at minato may lead to. Itachi fans are cancer.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 13, 2015)

FYI it probably would have been pointless to use SM on Tobi. Tobi would've teleported Minato while he's gathering natural energy. SM speed won't help Minato; the MS would predict Minato's movement and Tobi could react with Kamui.
Minato, despite what some are saying, probably has Frog Katas similar to Jiraiya level... neither of them have the level Naruto has (ghost punches). That wouldn't help. 

Hiraishin was the best thing Minato had on Tobi, so he used it. It was a battle of speed. 

Minato didn't activate SM instantly, but it was pretty darn quick. Just like when Naruto did against the third Raikage.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 13, 2015)

If activating SM was "pretty darn quick" or "near instantaneous" like some people are claiming, there is no sensible reason why he wouldn't use it. It is a buff with no downsides. Not using it all the time would be a crime.

The only explanation is, the explanation we are given in the manga. That it takes too long for Minato to get in SM, and he can't maintain it for long. In otherwords, the rewards aren't worth the risk.


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## Rocky (Nov 13, 2015)

The reason that Minato didn't use Sage Mode against Obito is because it was ass-pulled onto him that chapter. Earlier in the war, he called Naruto's senjutsu Jiraiya's. 

That said, I don't think he'll have time to use it here. Sage Mode actually does have a charge time. I know that by 'feats' Minato can instantly go Sage Mode while throwing a Kunai and using Hiraishin faster than Kakashi can Kamui, but, like, think for a second. Minato is not God tier.


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## Trojan (Nov 13, 2015)

Nah, it was obvious that Minato can use SM since Pain-Arc. 
I have debated the fact that he has it ever since because it was so goddamn obvious. 

Since Fuksaku stated "Naruto has surpassed those who came before him" 
and a pic of Minato and Jiraiya was shown with him, it was obvious that the statement is referring to SM. 

Tho, all the people I debated about that were from the simple-minded people "We don't see it, it's not true" 

He simply did not use it because there was there was no need to use. Just like itachi did not use all of his move-set against Kurnai and Kakashi. 



> think for a second. Minato is not God tier.



That such a terrible excuse. 
by this logic, any character who shows something that outstanding after awhile from its introduction, we should dumbed it down because
"it is not "god" tier" 

Example: 
Gai shows 8th Gates: Well, no one used to see him as that strong, therefore, this feat does not count.
Hashirama shows more woods: Well, in part 1 he was not that good, therefore those feats do not count.

and so on. 
it's just people have hard problem with their expectations getting violated.


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 13, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You should look up what "grasping at straws" mean. You seem to use it alot without knowing its meaning.
> 
> You say SM is instant. Then you say it would be risky to use it against Tobi because it would require Minato to stand still for a while.
> And when I confront you about this contradiction, you blame me for "grasping for straws."
> ...



Wow. I did explain. Learn to read.

I said that the MANGA SUGGESTS it's very fast. There's nothing before the panel of Minato going into Sage that suggests he was gathering chakra. Can the argument be made that he was gathering chakra while Madara was talking? Sure. But as we've seen, other Perfect Sages can enter Sage Mode very quickly, ie Naruto and Hashirama. I also clearly before said that instantaneous was a "stretch".

Even if we assume that Minato takes a couple of seconds to gather enough chakra for a short burst of SM; that is much less dangerous against Itachi than it is against Tobi. Not sure if you remember, but Tobi has a teleportion jutsu that Minato could only barely trump with his Hiraishin. Itachi has no such extremely fast jutsu.

Again. Please Grim ... please stop ignoring what I asked you and answer it. What logical reason would Minato have to use Sage Mode against Tobi?

Give me one that I can't easily disprove, like your last one, or concede that Minato had no reason to even consider using Sage Mode against Tobi.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 13, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> What the hell??!. What the hell!







> Minato mentally reacted to V2 Ays top shunshin from a distance of under 20m and managed to physically react by tossing a kunai up before Ay can even cross that distance.
> 
> MS Sasuke on the other hand got lol  blitzed by Ay with no mental or physical reaction.
> yet we are saying that Minato is only on par with Base raikage and taka sasuke of all people in speed and reflexes of all things?



 He only possessed the reflexes to react to Ei at the last minute and all he could do was simply react by flicking a Kunai at the last minute and that's indicated by the Kunai being flicked a rather low distance. Essentially, he barely physically reacted. He only performed a small physical reaction at the last minute. Aside from that, he only reacted mentally.

 MS Sasuke didn't get lol-blitzed. He literally shifted his head the instant where the flames made contact with the Samurai and he was still well within his Line of Sight:

 Link removed

 Literally, both of those situations are incomparable, but Sasuke's feat was far better because his physical reaction (shifting his head) happened far earlier compared to Minato who couldn't even perceive his movement until he was a meter away from his face:

 Link removed

 Besides, Minato's reacted to Ei's linear motion. Had he been forced in a position that MS Sasuke was, he wouldn't have survived seeing as how he barely perceived Ei's position when moving in a linear fashion and so thus, Minato would be oblivious to Ei's position after he leaves his LoS and so Minato would be unable to physically respond. That actually makes sense seeing as how it was implied that Minato would be unable to respond to Ei's speed with Hiraishin after Ei flickers to Minato's position after he warps as stated here:

Link removed



> Tobirama himself (faster than living madara, and hashirama, who are faster than Itachi) admitted inferiority to minato in shunshin. Reflexes come with this too.
> this alone throws your entire argument out the window



 Having higher movement speed doesn't imply higher reflexes. That's literally shown against Juubito when Tobirama reacted to and tagged Juubito and even managed to warp to Juubito twice without being hit whereas KCM Minato got his arm chopped off immediately. We've witnessed how slower fighters can react to fighters much faster than themselves, so implying that > Shunshin = > Reflexes doesn't make sense. 



> Minato >>  itachi in speed, and reflexes.
> FTG has got nothing to do with minatos reactions since minato still has to mentally react to use it accordingly. and his shunshin speed is already at a level above tobiramas which is more than enough for me to think that minato would be the one tagging itachi



 FTG is activated immediately and only requires a mental response to an attack. It has little to do with reflexes. Viz Translation literally states that Base Raikage (hence, lack of Raiton manipulation) has reflexes on par with the Yellow Flash. That leads to the implication of Itachi having greater reflexes as 3T Sasuke displayed superior reactions compared to V1 Raikage and even SM Naruto effecitvely evaded someone on at least V1 Raikage's speed caliber and Itachi canonically reacted to the fastest Sage in the entire manga aside from Hashirama who has displayed feats that would signify him being extremely fast.



> hand seal speed is useless when any and every attack that itachi throws will be reacted to



 It increases the success rate of his Shurikeninjutsu, Bushin feints, and his ability to use mid-range ninjutsu at a rather close-range as displayed against Bee. It's hardly useless. Him having high hand seal speed simply means Minato has less time to react and even detect the majority of Itachi's maneuvors.



> itachis elemental jutsus lack tthe scale to be even any factor in this battle
> add that with clones that are surrounded and attacking iitachi from multiple angles. then we get to the conclusion that this doesnt happen



 Itachi has the ability to plan events in advance and force his opponents in such a way that benefits Itach in the long-run. Him surrounding Itachi with clones carelessly hurts Minato in the long-run seeing as how a potential feint can easily allow Itachi to land a strike as shown against SM Kabuto and without Hiraishin, he simply can't evade the surprise attack that easily.


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## Rocky (Nov 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Besides, Minato's reacted to Ei's linear motion. Had he been forced in a position that MS Sasuke was, he wouldn't have survived.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 13, 2015)

Though I did exaggerate because I forgot to include the Kunai he threw previously on the battlefield.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 16, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If activating SM was "pretty darn quick" or "near instantaneous" like some people are claiming, there is no sensible reason why he wouldn't use it. It is a buff with no downsides. Not using it all the time would be a crime.



There is a downside: Minato has to be able to use it effectively. Without the summons, he can't. Against Tobi, that time he would use to gather natural energy would have him end up in Kamui-land.



> The only explanation is, the explanation we are given in the manga. That it takes too long for Minato to get in SM, and he can't maintain it for long. In otherwords, the rewards aren't worth the risk.



The manga also suggests Fukasaku and Shima fusing with someone slashes the time to enter it pretty quickly. Though you are choosing to ignore the manga: he entered SM quick. If he took as long as you say, it would've been pointless to try against Juubidara.

There is never a need to resort to SM when he has Hiraishin. ITT he has no Hiraishin.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 16, 2015)

There is no evidence that Minato knows the fusion. And even if he does, the summoning/fusion takes alot of time. That's even more risky.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 16, 2015)

The fusion is not something you need to learn. The toads do it for you -___-. 

Fukasaku attempted to fuse with naruto, there was no training or conditions needed. Fukasaku just said he'd hop on his shoulder and fuse. Only reason it failed was because kurama rejected it. Next excuse?

Not really risky when you can outrun you opponent and leave them in the dust, or use shadow clones to do it for you or to act as a diversion while its being done. Not to mention toads can summon toads.


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## thechickensage (Nov 16, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> The fusion is not something you need to learn. The toads do it for you -___-.
> 
> Fukasaku attempted to fuse with naruto, there was no training or conditions needed. Fukasaku just said he'd hop on his shoulder and fuse. Only reason it failed was because kurama rejected it. Next excuse?
> 
> Not really risky when you can outrun you opponent and leave them in the dust, or use shadow clones to do it for you or to act as a diversion while its being done. Not to mention toads can summon toads.



The toads couldnt fuse because Kurama wouldn't let them

It wasn't that they were completely incompatible, it's that Kurama simply wasn't cooperating.  

Naruto absolutely can merge once Kurama decides to play along.  Naruto + Kurama already allowed their chakra to be shared with _an entire army as well as between all the bijuu and naruto, AND Hagoromo_

Adult Naruto should be able to fuse easily


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachi wins, Minato's not trumping the sharingan without Hiraishin or the Kyuubi for support. Best case scenario is that he gives Itachi mid-difficulty and that's being generous.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 16, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> Itachi wins, Minato's not trumping the sharingan without Hiraishin or the Kyuubi for support. Best case scenario is that he gives Itachi mid-difficulty and that's being generous.





 Y u so stupid? Can't believe it, stupidest thing I heard all day. Minato low-diffs this loser.

 Probably what Hussein would say.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Y u so stupid? Can't believe it, stupidest thing I heard all day. Minato low-diffs this loser.
> 
> Probably what Hussein would say.



More than likely


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## ARGUS (Nov 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> He only possessed the reflexes to react to Ei at the last minute and all he could do was simply react by flicking a Kunai at the last minute and that's indicated by the Kunai being flicked a rather low distance. *Essentially, he barely physically reacted*. He only performed a small physical reaction at the last minute. Aside from that, he only reacted mentally.



he tossed a kunai up during Ays shunshin blitz when he was within a 20m distance. 
that is a physical reaction whether you like it or not, and ''barely'' reacting doesnt change the fact that minato can physically react. No amount of excuses are refuting the facts
you are putting him amongst the likes of MS Sasuke who couldnt even mentally perceive V2 Ays, let alone physically keeping up, 



> MS Sasuke didn't get lol-blitzed. He literally shifted his head the instant where the flames made contact with the Samurai and he was still well within his Line of Sight:
> 
> 5
> 
> *Literally, both of those situations are incomparable, but Sasuke's feat was far better because his physical reaction (shifting his head) happened far earlier compared to Minato who couldn't even perceive his movement until he was a meter away from his face:*



Lol what the hell!, Didnt I already refute this. 
Because we get  a clear comparison, in the next panel on where Sasuke was actually looking, and it sure as hell wasnt in Ays direction. indicating a clear cut blitz. 

 -- Ay was not in his LoS  
 -- Sasuke tilting his head was only done when he realised his amaterasu clearly failed 
 -- the enton coated shield was in response to the sheer fact that Sasuke couldnt even mentally keep up, and so that Ay doesnt just attack, 

tilting his head doesnt mean jack shit when we get confirmed that sasuke got blitzed, and when theres a confirmation by both Cee and Karin indicating that sasuke couldnt keep up 

minato on the other hand reacted both mentally and physically, and you are telling me thta sasuke who couldnt do either of those is better because  he ''lol tilted his head'' 



> 5
> 
> Besides, Minato's reacted to Ei's linear motion. *Had he been forced in a position that MS Sasuke was, he wouldn't have survived seeing as how he barely perceived Ei's position when moving in a linear fashion and so thus, Minato would be oblivious to Ei's position after he leaves his LoS and so Minato would be unable to physically respond. That actually makes sense seeing as how it was implied that Minato would be unable to respond to Ei's speed with Hiraishin after Ei flickers to Minato's position after he warps as stated here:*



Minato reacted to Ays top speed from well under 20m. tossed a kunai before Ay could finish and then teleported back to that kunai to attack Ay 

Ay attempting to run circles around minato doesnt change jack shit when Minato already reacted to him. attempting a blind side attack may work but minato has already showed that he can percieve AY therefore he can teleport the instant Ay decides to ram up in his face. 

Sasuke on the other hand  would get his head smashed in, if he was in minatos situation 



> 5
> 
> 
> 
> Having higher movement speed doesn't imply higher reflexes. That's literally shown against Juubito when Tobirama reacted to and tagged Juubito and even managed to warp to Juubito twice without being hit whereas KCM Minato got his arm chopped off immediately. We've witnessed how slower fighters can react to fighters much faster than themselves, so implying that > Shunshin = > Reflexes doesn't make sense.



No but your speed is directly proportional to your reflexes 
the faster you move, the faster you can generally react. 
Tobirama had an advantage against Juubito since he had already marked him, which ended up costing his own damn body 
besides using Tobirama as a means of justification makes no damn sense since sasuke =/= tobirama 
and since MS sasuke is much slower than tobirama 

we already know that shinobi can react to things much faster than themselves but that doesnt mean that they have  no limit to that at all. V2 Ay is tiers and tiers faster than MS sasuke, and it was because of that. not even his eyes could  keep up 




> FTG is activated immediately and only requires a mental response to an attack. It has little to do with reflexes.


What the hell? 
you still need to activate FTG 
if  the user doesnt have the recations to use it in time, then he gets hit, just how it was shown when Minato fought against Jin madara

it has everything to do with your god  damn reflexes 



> Viz Translation literally states that Base Raikage (hence, lack of Raiton manipulation) has reflexes on par with the Yellow Flash.


Yet Ay himself claims minato to be faster than him (reactions are part of that too) 
Cees statement has much lower credibilit than Ay himself 

then theres the fact that Cees statement can be interpreted differently





> That leads to the implication of Itachi having greater reflexes as 3T Sasuke displayed superior reactions compared to V1 Raikage


3T sasuke did NOT show superior reactions to V1 Raikage. 
all he did was evade his lunge 
doesnt mean that he's more agile or physically faster than V1 Ay 

Itachi has much superior reactions to MS sasuke, thats for sure, 


> and even SM Naruto effecitvely evaded someone on at least V1 Raikage's speed caliber and Itachi canonically reacted to the fastest Sage in the entire manga aside from Hashirama who has displayed feats that would signify him being extremely fast.


If by Itachi, you mean Kabuto. then its not his shunshin thats fast. 
he is incredibly agile thanks to DSM and he had the upper hand against itachi in CQC either way

again. none of this implies that ms sasuke is more agile than minato 
whenn minato physically reacted to V2 Ay, as opposed to sasuke reacting to V1 




> Itachi has the ability to plan events in advance and force his opponents in such a way that benefits Itach in the long-run. Him surrounding Itachi with clones carelessly hurts Minato in the long-run seeing as how a potential feint can easily allow Itachi to land a strike as shown against SM Kabuto and without Hiraishin, he simply can't evade the surprise attack that easily.



If there are clones then the probability of itachi actually striking the original is already minimised. Surrounding itachi with them only benefits him because he can stirke with his other clones the moment itachi focuses on one of them. 

minatos shunshin was  shown to be superior to all the hokages (tobirama and hashirama included) both of whom are much faster than itachi.

what can itachi even strike with? a kunai? because then minato reacts and blocks with his own kunai. so evasion is not necessary. 
and whilst one of them has blocked the strike. 
the other 10 or so minatos shunshin and strike itachi from all the directions 

a rasengan slam is a GG


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> The fusion is not something you need to learn. The toads do it for you -___-.
> 
> Fukasaku attempted to fuse with naruto, there was no training or conditions needed. Fukasaku just said he'd hop on his shoulder and fuse. Only reason it failed was because kurama rejected it. Next excuse?
> 
> Not really risky when you can outrun you opponent and leave them in the dust, or use shadow clones to do it for you or to act as a diversion while its being done. Not to mention toads can summon toads.



Yes, it is something you need to learn. It is listed as a jutsu in DB.

And no, we've seen how risky and long it is. You need to have your hands clamped together during the entire time it takes to summon them;(took 1 chapter for Jman). Itachi blitzes him and cuts his head off.


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2015)

Jiraiya's Sage Mode transformation doesn't even make sense lol. 

We see base Jiraiya stalling because he was trying to summon the sage toads. Okay. Eventually, base Jiraiya is a few feet away from getting destroyed by a giant ram, but the ritual finishes just in time. Okay.

...how did he get into Sage Mode instantaneously? What happened to the the natural energy gathering part?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2015)

^
Plot happened.

sort of like how Tobi saved Sasuke from Onoki's jinton cube. We didn't see him get in and get out, and we know for a fact that warping isn't nearly as fast.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 17, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is no evidence that Minato knows the fusion. And even if he does, the summoning/fusion takes alot of time. That's even more risky.



Going by Naruto and Jiraiya, everyone learns of the fusion. The aim is to try not to rely on it. Summoning and fusing won't take that much time going by the conditions ITT. Itachi isn't Juubidara who can wtfpwn Minato in that time.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Going by Naruto and Jiraiya, everyone learns of the fusion. The aim is to try not to rely on it. Summoning and fusing won't take that much time going by the conditions ITT. Itachi isn't Juubidara who can wtfpwn Minato in that time.



Or since Minato isn't a proper SM user, unlike Naruto and Jiraiya, he never learned it. There is no way to know, but since its not an ability he displayed, I'll just assume he doesn't have it.

But lets assume he has that ability for the sake of the argument. Summoning and fusing took 1 chapter for Jiraiya, and he relied on Gamaken's abilities through out the duration. You don't have to be Juubidara to pwn Minato under these circumstances. He doesn't have Hirashin and he will have to keep his hands clasped together for a significant time.


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## Elite Uchiha (Nov 17, 2015)

Adult Base Minato would win low difficulty, at best. 

Nine year old Minato vs EMS Itachi would be a more equitable bout.


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Or since Minato isn't a proper SM user, unlike Naruto and Jiraiya, he never learned it. There is no way to know, but since its not an ability he displayed, I'll just assume he doesn't have it.
> 
> But lets assume he has that ability for the sake of the argument. Summoning and fusing took 1 chapter for Jiraiya, and he relied on Gamaken's abilities through out the duration. You don't have to be Juubidara to pwn Minato under these circumstances. He doesn't have Hirashin and he will have to keep his hands clasped together for a significant time.



Minato is Perfect Sage; ie, superior to Jiraiya in mastery. That has little bearing on anything as I don't see Minato trying to fuse anyway; as you said, _summoning and fusion_ takes much longer and Minato simply is not the type to go for that.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 22, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Or since Minato isn't a proper SM user, unlike Naruto and Jiraiya, he never learned it. There is no way to know, but since its not an ability he displayed, I'll just assume he doesn't have it.
> 
> But lets assume he has that ability for the sake of the argument. Summoning and fusing took 1 chapter for Jiraiya, and he relied on Gamaken's abilities through out the duration. You don't have to be Juubidara to pwn Minato under these circumstances. He doesn't have Hirashin and he will have to keep his hands clasped together for a significant time.



He is a proper SM: he can use SM. He obviously learnt it from Myoubokuzan going by the markings. You're saying he doesn't have it when we saw it. :/

You know how to measure time in a chapter? Also Itachi isn't Pain and lacks the starting conditions of that battle: Minato could feasibly summon into fusion. Or he can just summon the toads and they could simply hop on.

You have to be Juubidara to do it as fast as Juubidara. Unless you are trying to tell me Itachi can move as fast as Juubidara?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 22, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He is a proper SM: he can use SM. He obviously learnt it from Myoubokuzan going by the markings. You're saying he doesn't have it when we saw it. :/
> 
> You know how to measure time in a chapter? Also Itachi isn't Pain and lacks the starting conditions of that battle: Minato could feasibly summon into fusion. Or he can just summon the toads and they could simply hop on.
> 
> You have to be Juubidara to do it as fast as Juubidara. Unless you are trying to tell me Itachi can move as fast as Juubidara?



Going by  the evens that happened through out the chapter, I can easily estimate it to be a minute or two.

Like I said, you don't have to be Juubidara to pwn Minato under these circumstances.
Minato doesn't have Hirashin and he will have his hands clasped together for an entireity of a minute or two.



OutlawJohn said:


> Minato is Perfect Sage; ie, superior to Jiraiya in mastery. That has little bearing on anything as I don't see Minato trying to fuse anyway; as you said, _summoning and fusion_ takes much longer and Minato simply is not the type to go for that.



This
If he was superior to Jiraiya, then Fukasaku would compare Naruto to him, not Jiraiya.

You may argue Minato's SM was a retcon, but not sure how reliable of an argument it would be.


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## Elite Uchiha (Nov 22, 2015)

If Itachi couldn't react to Kabuto, then even Minato at the age of 9 can defeat any variation of Itachi.


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## Rai (Nov 22, 2015)

Minato is a Perfect Sage like Naruto and can enter in SM on his own.

Jiraiys is a Imperfect Sage and can't enter in SM without the two sage toads.

It's clearly who is superior.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 23, 2015)

ℜai said:


> Minato is a Perfect Sage like Naruto and can enter in SM on his own.
> 
> Jiraiys is a Imperfect Sage and can't enter in SM without the two sage toads.
> 
> It's clearly who is superior.



I don't think Jiraiya has a problem entering SM, I think he has a problem maintaining it, which is why he needs them to filter in natural energy appropriately.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Going by  the evens that happened through out the chapter, I can easily estimate it to be a minute or two.
> 
> Like I said, you don't have to be Juubidara to pwn Minato under these circumstances.
> Minato doesn't have Hirashin and he will have his hands clasped together for an entireity of a minute or two.



Explain how you estimated it. I'm interested in how one measures time in a chapter.

You have to be like Juubidara to cross quite a distance to own Minato with no effort. 
Why does he have to clasp his hands? Why can't he just summon; getting into SM isn't a problem for him. The summons would be aids.



> disagrees with you.
> If he was superior to Jiraiya, then Fukasaku would compare Naruto to him, not Jiraiya.
> 
> You may argue Minato's SM was a retcon, but not sure how reliable of an argument it would be.



Naruto displaying the SM marks with no toad features were a sign he surpassed Jiraiya. Minato's case is different: he can balance it better, but it seems his Senjutsu isn't as strong as Jiraiya's; it is stronger than base Minato's which is the important factor.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 23, 2015)

I don't see how Minato wins this, even if he knows Itachi's a genjutsu expert, I doubt anyone can predict the finger genjutsu.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 25, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> I don't see how Minato wins this, even if he knows Itachi's a genjutsu expert, I doubt anyone can predict the finger genjutsu.



Works on Chunin levels though, not above.


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## Trojan (Nov 25, 2015)

Sadzuki said:


> I don't see how Minato wins this, even if he knows Itachi's a genjutsu expert, I doubt anyone can predict the finger genjutsu.



> Hokage will lose to a finger Genjutsu because it barely worked on early part 2 Naruto. 

Really? 

Well, Minato's speed worked on the fodder in Kakashi Gaiden, so that must mean it will work on itachi.
itachi can know that Minato is pretty fast, but I doubt anyone can predict a fast shunshin


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## StarWanderer (Nov 26, 2015)

Since when Itachi's reflexes >>>>>> EMS Sasuke's reflexes?

Also, just sayin' - EMS Sasuke was amped by Juugo's senjutsu when he tracked Juubito. 

Anyway, Minato has very good reflexes (could react to Gudoudama), faster Shunshin, Frog and Sage Mode. Itachi has faster movement speed, Katons, finger genjutsu...

Minato takes it, i think.



> I'm just waiting for the idiot who thinks base Minato is faster then Juubito.



Hussain, maybe?


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