# Zuko / Azula (ATLA) vs Beifong Sisters & Zaofu Metalbenders



## Rivers (Oct 3, 2014)

*Location:* Clifftop where Zaheer captures Korra
*Starting Distance:* 30 meters
*State of Mind:* In Character
*Notes:* Zuko has his Twin Dao Swords

_Scenario 1:_ EOS Zuko vs Ling & Suyin Beifong + 6 Zaofu Metalbenders
_Scenario 2:_ Sane Azula vs Ling & Suyin Beifong + 6 Zaofu Metalbenders


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 4, 2014)

Zuko and Azula with both of their scenarios. The 2 sisters fighting together weren't impressive at all against P'Li and she only got defeated by being blindsided. Zuko and Azula would eventually throw the off the cliff with better speed, agility, reactions and barrages of fire attacks. Azula's been shown to casually dodge much bigger sized rocks and kick some small ones around as well with just her fighting, she'll easily overpower the 2 sisters, same with Zuko.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 4, 2014)

What's EOS?


> Zuko and Azula with both of their  scenarios. The 2 sisters fighting together weren't impressive at all  against P'Li and she only got defeated by being blindsided. Zuko and  Azula would eventually throw the off the cliff with better speed,  agility, reactions and barrages of fire attacks. Azula's been shown to  casually dodge much bigger sized rocks and kick some small ones around  as well with just her fighting, she'll easily overpower the 2 sisters,  same with Zuko.


 Zuko didn't fare very well against Combustion Man. I don't think you can make that leap.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 4, 2014)

Reznor said:


> What's EOS?
> Zuko didn't fare very well against Combustion Man. I don't think you can make that leap.



I'm basing Zuko of his fight against Azula where he had good level of skill, which I think is enough to beat the 2 sisters by himself. And Combustion Man one shots P'Li if you're thinking she is better than CM. He'll easily overpower her combustion ck


----------



## Reznor (Oct 4, 2014)

> I'm basing Zuko of his fight against Azula where he had good level  of skill


With the comet or without?



> And  Combustion Man one shots P'Li if you're thinking she is better than CM.  He'll easily overpower her combustion ck


 That still doesn't make her a basis of comparison for one thing.

2 Sisters + 6 Zafou Metalbenders > 2 Sisters > P'Li
Combustion Man > Zuko 

Those can't give us Zuko > 2 Sisters + 6 ZMb. Also, let's not treat Korra mooks like foddery TLA Mooks. The mook level in LOK is much greater than that of TLA.

Also, P'Li can make non-linear shots. I'm not sure I'd just say "CM > P'Li" and be done with it like that.


----------



## Amae (Oct 4, 2014)

CM is stronger than P'Li, feats themselves back that up. Zuko's impromptu fire wall (before finding his new source for firebending and essentially getting a power boost) can hold back CM's blasts. Combustion Man and Zuko never had a proper fight.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 4, 2014)

Reznor said:


> With the comet or without?



Without, there were stages where he stopped getting his ass kicked. Like when they were at one of the air temples or when he was on top of that moving tramline thing he was able to hold his own after learning from the dragons.



> That still doesn't make her a basis of comparison for one thing.
> 
> 2 Sisters + 6 Zafou Metalbenders > 2 Sisters > P'Li
> Combustion Man > Zuko
> ...




The Zafou Metalbenders were fodder, they all got destroyed or thrown off the cliff by P?Li. And P?Li had both of them on the run where she even outright defeated one of the sisters then got beat when she got blindsided with another. 

What gives me Zuko beating 2 sisters and the Metalbenders is me basing him off Azula since Azula can beat them very handily and that Zuko isn't completely far from Azula's level. Zuko can also deflect rocks with his swords and tank hits from a rockslide as he did against that Earthbender in the Zuko Alone episode, and he wasn't even using firebending until the very end. Azula's shown to dodge rocks easily where she darted around them. These 2 can easily win against the 2 sisters. 

Non-linear shots won?t mean shit if CM just blasts one at him and lols at her minuscule sized combustion.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 4, 2014)

CM might have more raw power, but P'Li's range, accuracy and curved shot shouldn't be ignored. 
"Feats" are good, but only a first order analysis.

Anyone have a gif of the firewall by chance?

The only two Zuko's I can think of are pre-sun warrior (who would lose hard) and Comet Enhanced Zuko (who would win.) What does this just before Soizen's Comet Zuko have going for him?


----------



## Amae (Oct 4, 2014)

Being able to match Azula in power.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 4, 2014)

Both Zuko and Azula win


----------



## Wan (Oct 4, 2014)

There's no way Zuko and Azula individually are beating Suyin, Lin, _and_ 6 Zaofu guards.  Zaofu guards are actually competent, not going down to the Red Lotus quickly.  They can't get powerful attacks off fast enough to keep the pressure on Suyin and Lin like P'li was able to do.  Azula's standard fireblasts were stopped short by Aang's earth wall (and not a solid earth wall, for that matter, but a bunch of rocks Aang pulled together):



and she had to resort to a charged fireblast with an elaborate  movement to break through Aang's earth wall:



Those few seconds needed to charge, and to recover her stance, leaves her open to getting attacked.  And even if Azula could keep up the pressure like P'Li could, Lin and Suyin could just use a similar strategy they used with P'li, splitting up and having one draw her attention to leave her open for the other to take out.

Adding in 6 Zaofu metalbenders just makes it a stomp.  Having Zuko and Azula fight _together_ would be a much more even match.


----------



## Amae (Oct 4, 2014)

Azula only attacked that earth wall once before destroying it and the wall wasn't her intended target (the blast was an open palm movement). That charged attack that destroyed the wall also only took one second, the ones (just plain 'ol spinning kicks) prior to the spinning kick took even less time - they conveniently missed the earth wall. 

Besides, yeah, they lose. It's a numbers game.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 4, 2014)

Yeah, Zuko+Azula I'd have to think about. They lose separately though.


----------



## Rivers (Oct 5, 2014)

Reznor said:


> What's EOS?



End of series. Post-Firebending Masters, but without Comet Boost.



Reznor said:


> CM might have more raw power, but P'Li's range, accuracy and curved shot shouldn't be ignored.
> 
> "Feats" are good, but only a first order analysis.



She would also have much better agility, and attacking speed. She can fire off her combustion every 1 to 1.5 seconds if she wants, coupled with the explosive (knock back) nature of each attack, that's what allowed her to keep in check six benders at range. 



Reznor said:


> Anyone have a gif of the firewall by chance?








MusubiKazesaru said:


> Both Zuko and Azula win



You mean Zuko on his own wins? And the Azula on her own wins?



Wan said:


> Azula's standard fireblasts were stopped short by Aang's earth wall (and not a solid earth wall, for that matter, but a bunch of rocks Aang pulled together):
> 
> 
> 
> and she had to resort to a charged fireblast with an elaborate  movement to break through Aang's earth wall:



P'Li's attacks are about at least that strong that dropped Aang behind his Earthbended wall.


----------



## Velocity (Oct 6, 2014)

I think Azula might be able to pull it off, actually. Even without her Firebending she was dancing around Toph's Earthbending and we all know Toph is better than any single Earthbender in this match up (and they were underground at the time, so Toph had advantages her daughters would not). Assuming Azula did win, it would be crazy hard for her to pull off since we're still talking about a 1 vs 8 battle and avoiding attacks from that many directions would be significantly difficult even for Azula.

Zuko would have a much harder time, though, and I don't think he'd manage it. While I believe the final battle between Zuko and Azula implied Zuko had finally caught up with his sister in terms of raw power, Firebending has trouble getting through Earthbending and Zuko lacks his sister's acrobatic ability.


----------



## Wan (Oct 6, 2014)

Velocity said:


> I think Azula might be able to pull it off, actually. Even without her Firebending she was dancing around Toph's Earthbending and we all know Toph is better than any single Earthbender in this match up (and they were underground at the time, so Toph had advantages her daughters would not). Assuming Azula did win, it would be crazy hard for her to pull off since we're still talking about a 1 vs 8 battle and avoiding attacks from that many directions would be significantly difficult even for Azula.



If any earthbender can measure up to Toph, it's her own daughters.  And it's not like Azula did that by herself, she had support from two Dai Li agents.  Toph didn't do a lot of the faster earthbending moves in that fight, either.  I just don't think Azula can match the acrobatic ability that P'li displayed in the fight with Lin and Suyin.  But even if she can, like I said, that just puts her in the same situation as P'li -- Lin or Suyin can distract her while the other takes her out.  I think it's firmly beyond Azula's ability to solo.


----------



## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2014)

Wan said:


> If any earthbender can measure up to Toph, it's her own daughters



is there some internal logic to this beyond "they're her daughters therefore they're as good as her"

i don't see any


----------



## Wan (Oct 6, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> is there some internal logic to this beyond "they're her daughters therefore they're as good as her"
> 
> i don't see any



Well for one they would have been _taught_ by her.


----------



## Wan (Oct 6, 2014)

It's not like it matters that much.  I didn't flat out say Lin and Suyin are as good as Toph, just that they could be on her level, and it's not like Azula faced Toph alone, because she had two Dai Li agents with her and she wasn't even trying to win the fight.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 6, 2014)

Toph's daughter's benefit from Toph's experience with their metalbending. Book 3 Toph didn't benefit from her older  self's experience. Usage of cables, for example. Book 3 Toph 


> I think Azula might be able to pull it off, actually. Even without her  Firebending she was dancing around Toph's Earthbending and we all know  Toph is better than any single Earthbender in this match up (and they  were underground at the time, so Toph had advantages her daughters would  not).


 Azula was purely on the defensive though. It's not like she could focus on evasion the same amount while also throwing in full offense as well.

Zuko is a very hard sell to me. He's got to get into close to pressure anyone, but he's got to stay back to defend himself.

Azula stands a better chance, but there's too many chances for her to get snagged by a wire, which she doesn't do well with (see Katara v Azula in CoD)


----------



## Reznor (Oct 6, 2014)

I do think Azula could def 1 v 1 any of them though.


----------



## Wan (Oct 6, 2014)

I find it amusing that the OP gave Zuko his swords.  Against the metalbenders they're just fresh scrap for Huan's art gallery.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 6, 2014)

Azula easily destroys the 2 sisters and the 6 Fodderbenders. As if those 6 can remotely do jack shit to Azula, 10 seconds max and they get fisted. Toph and Aang couldn't even catch Azula, Aang even mentioned that she was way too fast for him. Toph tried to earth landslide and Azula fucking tiptoed on top of it and dodged it instantly, her agility is way way >>>>>>>>>>>>>> above the sisters and the Fodderbenders and this was Azula with no firebending at all, just her base strength. When she has firebending she can shoot it from all directions including feet, she has jet propulsion, lightning and she can also destroy rocks with her bare strength + the experience of fighting much stronger opponents on a daily basis, even fighting Aang's earth-bending she whooped his ass and he was lying there on the floor... gives her a casual win over these 2 fodder sisters and 6 irrelevant characters. 

I like how this imaginary thinking of "oh when she attacks she leaves herself open". Like fuck. 99.9% of the time her opponents are either defending or running away from her when she goes on the offense. She's isn't some slow ass that it takes a gargantuan amount of time for her to land a next attack, she pretty much does it instantly. 

Anyway, the 2 sisters get smashed by her. They are not on her level and will never will be.


----------



## Wan (Oct 6, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> As if those 6 can remotely do jack shit to Azula,



Zaofu guards aren't fodder.  A couple managed to keep up with Zaheer in "The Terror Within", and they held out in the fight with P'li for a while.


> Toph and Aang couldn't even catch Azula, Aang even mentioned that she was way too fast for him.



Yes, but that was also while Aang had to be on guard against the Dai Li, and as Reznor pointed out she was focusing 100% on evasion and wasn't trying to go on the offense.



> Toph tried to earth landslide and Azula fucking tiptoed on top of it and dodged it instantly, her agility is way way >>>>>>>>>>>>>> above the sisters and the Fodderbenders and this was Azula with no firebending at all, just her base strength.



You mean this?

[YOUTUBE]c29g5kbFE1A[/YOUTUBE]

Doesn't seem like a very fast attack.



> When she has firebending she can shoot it from all directions including feet, she has jet propulsion,



Her jet propulsion is pretty limited outside of Sozin's Comet.



> lightning



Lightning takes a moment to charge, thus leaving her open to attack.  She very rarely used it outside of Sozin's Comet.



> she can also destroy rocks with her bare strength



Destroy?  No.  She once kicked aside, not destroyed, some rocks, but they were smaller than the rocks the metalbenders will be throwing at her.



> the experience of fighting much stronger opponents on a daily basis



  She had, like 5 fights in the whole course of Book 3, which is supposed to stretch over a whole summer.  "Daily basis" seems pretty blatantly inaccurate.



> even fighting Aang's earth-bending she whooped his ass and he was lying there on the floor... gives her a casual win over these 2 fodder sisters and 6 irrelevant characters.



Yeah, Aang wasn't all that impressive in that fight with Azula.



> I like how this imaginary thinking of "oh when she attacks she leaves herself open". Like fuck. 99.9% of the time her opponents are either defending or running away from her when she goes on the offense. She's isn't some slow ass that it takes a gargantuan amount of time for her to land a next attack, she pretty much does it instantly.



Most of the time Azula is also fighting a single opponent, not a whole team.  When she was surrounded in "The Chase", her own response was to run away.  She's not slow per se, but she's not fast enough to take on 8 enemy metalbenders.  P'li could dodge all of their attacks, blast through their defenses, and get off powerful attacks quicker than Azula could yet she still went down.  Azula will too.


----------



## Amae (Oct 6, 2014)

> Lightning takes a moment to charge, thus leaving her open to attack. She very rarely used it outside of Sozin's Comet.


How many times does Azula's lightning feats in The Search have to be brought up?


----------



## Wan (Oct 6, 2014)

Amae said:


> How many times does Azula's lightning feats in The Search have to be brought up?



It doesn't make a difference.  In the first instance, Azula doesn't even use it as an attack.  In the second, Azula was mentally unstable at the time so her judgement would have been clouded, and Zuko's response was not to exploit the opening but to redirect the lightning back at her.  The OP sets this as sane Azula anyways, so post-Sozin's Comet is excluded.


----------



## Amae (Oct 6, 2014)

Azula shot lightning more than two times in The Search, and what an insane Azula could do a sane Azula can do.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 6, 2014)

Wan said:


> Yes, but that was also while Aang had to be on guard against the Dai Li, and as Reznor pointed out she was focusing 100% on evasion and wasn't trying to go on the offense.



Aang one-shotted one of the Dai Li agents then he started to chase down and fight Azula but couldn?t land a single hit on her. There was not one scene where he was hampered by a Dai Li, he sorted them out first then tried to attack Azula but couldn?t because she was faster and much more agile than him. Did you not even see her jumping and dancing around the place like it was a practice session to her? 



> You mean this?
> 
> [YOUTUBE]c29g5kbFE1A[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Doesn't seem like a very fast attack.



The slow motion scene of her reacting and jumping on top of the landslide is meant to show the speed of the landslide and Azula?s reaction towards it. It?s meant to show her prowess in agility which she is very good at and has shown much better of it than any of the sisters in LOK. 



> Her jet propulsion is pretty limited outside of Sozin's Comet.



Limited? She used it against Zuko when she was fighting on top of that tramline. She LITERALLY flew for a brief moment when she jumped from the building to the rope, then she used it again for a long time to reach the tram. It?s not like she runs out of using it. And I'm sure she's used it in another scene as well, I will try and find it but I am positive.



> Lightning takes a moment to charge, thus leaving her open to attack.  She very rarely used it outside of Sozin's Comet.





> Destroy?  No.  She once kicked aside, not destroyed, some rocks, but they were smaller than the rocks the metalbenders will be throwing at her.



Lightning was just one of the assets I pointed out and tbh she doesn?t even need lightning to beat the 2 sisters and the Fodderbenders. You forget that the 2 sisters take a long ass time to throw their rocks as well when they build it up from the ground, the rocks stay in the mid air for a while until they kick it. 

Azula can easily deflect those or just outright dodge them as she did with the boulders which were dropping on her against the Aang fight (go watch it on youtube, she danced around those). And when Aang actually sent a boulder after her she made an instant split and dodged it then got back up straight away and started attacking Aang, she is much faster than anything the 2 sisters can throw at her. She literally laughs at them. 



> She had, like 5 fights in the whole course of Book 3, which is supposed to stretch over a whole summer.  "Daily basis" seems pretty blatantly inaccurate.



Everytime she fought the Gaang she always had the upper hand. She?s fought Aang like twice and she had him both times on the ropes until help came in and saved him. She?s had multiple fights and experience not just from Aang but from other top characters who were the pinnacle of their respective bending powers and she was able to match them toe to toe or even outright gain advantages over them.



> Yeah, Aang wasn't all that impressive in that fight with Azula.



No, Aang was impressive. Wtf? Lol. Don?t be mad just because Azula was able to deflect and dodge everything Aang was trying to hit her with and at the same time be on the offense and throw him into the corner lying down. Aang wasn?t impressive is a dumb excuse considering she?s always had the upper hand against Aang in any fight. 



> Most of the time Azula is also fighting a single opponent, not a whole team.  When she was surrounded in "The Chase", her own response was to run away.  She's not slow per se, but she's not fast enough to take on 8 enemy metalbenders.  P'li could dodge all of their attacks, blast through their defenses, and get off powerful attacks quicker than Azula could yet she still went down.  Azula will too.



What nonsense is this? Look at this video below. I will break this video down for you so you can understand. Azula vs Zuko and Aang. At first, Azula one shots Zuko throw a building then Aang tries to escape/fly away. Now look at the amount of fire she generated to bring him down from fucking mid air, for Avatar standards that?s a quiet a big flame since it travelled quiet far. Then instantly she was on a rooftop running towards Aang, again showing her quick thinking and speed. Then Zuko comes back to the action and she?s able to dodge/deflect/jump around both of their attacks whilst she?s in the middle, even able to negate Zuko?s fire attacks and send him back. 

She?s able to do all of this simulataneously and then proceeded to chase Aang as he tried to escape, again giving no time for Aang to even fight back. Then she chases Aang again and fucking cuts a building in half then traps him with her fire until Katata blindsides her attack, then what happens? Lol Katara starts running. Then eventually she gets outnumbered by the strongest friggin characters in the series and still manages to one-shot Iroh (he looked away to look at Toph but then I paused the image when he looked back at Azula and then that?s when she shot him, so it wasn?t a blindside before you say it was, here I even made the images for you) 



Then she created a fire shield which defended against all of their attacks and bending powers at point blank range. And those 5, Toph, Aang, Katara, Zuko and Iroh shit stomp the 2 sisters in a second. Toph, Iroh and Aang can individually smash the 2 sisters and the Fodderbenders. Katara not likely, she can probably take down one sister and that version of Zuko can?t either. 

((video: ))

Even Azula?s fight against Zuko in one of the air temples shows her destructive capacity when she launched a fire attack from her feet and destroying a building and the explosion sent Zuko flying, which was a much bigger explosion than any of P'Li's attacks. Sorry but, Azula merks the sisters and the Fodderbenders (I know you love to overrate the LOK fighters but the fact that you think the Metalbenders have any remote chance of doing jack shit against Azula is hysterical). But then again what can I expect, you think Bolin can take down Azula.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 6, 2014)

> It’s meant to show her prowess in agility which she  is very good at and has shown much better of it than any of the sisters  in LOK.


This is just generic TLA > LOK stuff.

They are plenty fast here:


----------



## Amae (Oct 6, 2014)

I think it's just Azula being a top tier firebender stuff (who would beat P'Li easier than the sisters did).


----------



## Wan (Oct 6, 2014)

Amae said:


> Azula shot lightning more than two times in The Search, and what an insane Azula could do a sane Azula can do.



Then what's the lightning feat from The Search that makes a difference here?



Pocalypse said:


> Aang one-shotted one of the Dai Li agents then he started to chase down and fight Azula but couldn’t land a single hit on her. There was not one scene where he was hampered by a Dai Li, he sorted them out first then tried to attack Azula but couldn’t because she was faster and much more agile than him. Did you not even see her jumping and dancing around the place like it was a practice session to her?



If by "one-shotted", you mean "tagged him after several unsuccessful attempts", then sure.



> The slow motion scene of her reacting and jumping on top of the landslide is meant to show the speed of the landslide and Azula’s reaction towards it. It’s meant to show her prowess in agility which she is very good at and has shown much better of it than any of the sisters in LOK.



The slow motion effect doesn't kick in until the attack pushes on her foot; that's when the audio changes to indicate it.  It's not a fast attack.  Lin was pretty dang agile in her run on P'li.



> Limited? She used it against Zuko when she was fighting on top of that tramline. She LITERALLY flew for a brief moment when she jumped from the building to the rope, then she used it again for a long time to reach the tram. It’s not like she runs out of using it. And I'm sure she's used it in another scene as well, I will try and find it but I am positive.



Yes, limited.  She used it briefly as a boost to get to the tramline, then hooked a cuff onto it and used it to push along the line.  It wasn't true flight.



> Lightning was just one of the assets I pointed out and tbh she doesn’t even need lightning to beat the 2 sisters and the Fodderbenders. You forget that the 2 sisters take a long ass time to throw their rocks as well when they build it up from the ground, the rocks stay in the mid air for a while until they kick it.



It's not a "long ass time" compared to any other earthbender.



> Azula can easily deflect those or just outright dodge them as she did with the boulders which were dropping on her against the Aang fight (go watch it on youtube, she danced around those). And when Aang actually sent a boulder after her she made an instant split and dodged it then got back up straight away and started attacking Aang, she is much faster than anything the 2 sisters can throw at her. She literally laughs at them.



The rock she deflected wasn't really a boulder, it was too small:



And yes, she outright dodged larger boulders that Aang threw at her, but so did P'Li with the boulders the sisters threw at her.  In her fight with Aang, Azula could just dodge and deflect one at a time; she didn't have multiple enemies to worry about.



> Everytime she fought the Gaang she always had the upper hand. She’s fought Aang like twice and she had him both times on the ropes until help came in and saved him. She’s had multiple fights and experience not just from Aang but from other top characters who were the pinnacle of their respective bending powers and she was able to match them toe to toe or even outright gain advantages over them.



Not quite true, Katara had Azula at a disadvantage a couple times in the fight in "Crossroads of Destiny".  Azula's not some invincible fighter even in the context of ATLA.



> Then she created a fire shield which defended against all of their attacks and bending powers at point blank range. And those 5, Toph, Aang, Katara, Zuko and Iroh shit stomp the 2 sisters in a second. Toph, Iroh and Aang can individually smash the 2 sisters and the Fodderbenders. Katara not likely, she can probably take down one sister and that version of Zuko can’t either.
> 
> ((video: ))



Those 5 would probably beat the metalbenders altogether, though I'd also say the sisters could give any of them a good fight (Katara in particular would lose, with how little water she had there.  Which is probably why she ran from Azula).  That's beside my point.  Most of the fights Azula has been in are fights where she either has her own backup or it's a one on one fight.  There's no precedent for her to be able to solo a group of 8 competent benders, two of which being top tier earth and metalbenders.



> Even Azula’s fight against Zuko in one of the air temples shows her destructive capacity when she launched a fire attack from her feet and destroying a building and the explosion sent Zuko flying, which was a much bigger explosion than any of P'Li's attacks. Sorry but, Azula merks the sisters and the Fodderbenders (I know you love to overrate the LOK fighters but the fact that you think the Metalbenders have any remote chance of doing jack shit against Azula is hysterical). But then again what can I expect, you think Bolin can take down Azula.



Azula didn't destroy the building, it was already weakened by the bombardment with explosives.  P'li's own explosion sent several of the metalbenders flying off the cliff.    Plus, Azula's attack was a single attack.  She can't do that quickly, while P'li shoots her blasts in rapid succession.  It's not so much that the Zaofu guards can do anything individually to Azula, but she can't afford to just ignore them, and splitting her attention between 8 opponents including two elite earth/metalbenders means she's inevitably going to be hit.

When have I said Bolin could take down Azula?


----------



## Amae (Oct 6, 2014)

Wan said:


> Then what's the lightning feat from The Search that makes a difference here?


Lightning flashes to blind the opposition as well as quick and one handed lightning generation.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 6, 2014)

Wan said:


> If by "one-shotted", you mean "tagged him after several unsuccessful attempts", then sure.



Aang tried to chase Azula. Dai Li agent builds a wall. Aang busts through it with just his strength. Then one shots the Dai Li agents and sends him flying then starts to attack Azula. Go watch the video, you’re implying as if the Dai Li agents gave any trouble to Toph or Aang. 



> The slow motion effect doesn't kick in until the attack pushes on her foot; that's when the audio changes to indicate it.  It's not a fast attack.  Lin was pretty dang agile in her run on P'li.



The slow motion effect is to portray Azula’s reaction towards the earth landslide attack. She reacted to it and easily dodged it, that’s the whole point. None of Toph’s attacks who is by far stronger than the 2 sisters and would stomp them with one hand could land hits on a Azula who was dicking around with no power and firebending to go on the offense. It was meant to show her prowess in defense as well because she's already excellent at offense. Imagine if she had her firebending at that time and fought Toph and Aang, they'd be in deep shit. 



> Yes, limited.  She used it briefly as a boost to get to the tramline, then hooked a cuff onto it and used it to push along the line.  It wasn't true flight.



Lol she boosted herself from a friggin building to the rope and still maintained the propulsion. It’s not limited at all, she can use it whenever she wants and she even used it to come back down from the tramline. Look at this video around the 2.22 mark. She was in mid air and travelling for a damn while she she propelled herself to go back to the other tram. It’s not even short and nothing suggests this, she can use it for any period of time as she wants. She only stops using it once she reaches her destination. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqLW7D2P1HE[/YOUTUBE]



> It's not a "long ass time" compared to any other earthbender.



Sure as hell is, the sisters’s pace is that of a snail when fighting. Go look at Toph’s earthbending where most of it is practically instant where she busts out pillars and whatnot from the ground instantly. 



> The rock she deflected wasn't really a boulder, it was too small:
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, she outright dodged larger boulders that Aang threw at her, but so did P'Li with the boulders the sisters threw at her.  In her fight with Aang, Azula could just dodge and deflect one at a time; she didn't have multiple enemies to worry about.



She dodged all the boulders which were dropping on her and tip toed around them. Those boulders were massive and the sisters didn’t throw boulders at P’Li, they were just a bunch of rocks which weren’t even close to the size that Azula dodged. She dodged multiple boulders and again, has the feats to back it up. 



> Not quite true, Katara had Azula at a disadvantage a couple times in the fight in "Crossroads of Destiny".  Azula's not some invincible fighter even in the context of ATLA.



That’s funny because whenever she fought she always had the other opponent running. Aang came to fight Azula and even waited for her there but after witnessing her power he decided to escape and run away. Azula is one of the top 5 fights in the series, and her feats back up that greatly with her multiple encounters with characters who were the pinnacle of their bending powers. But you keep downplaying Azula like she's fucking Asami level or some shit.



> Those 5 would probably beat the metalbenders altogether, though I'd also say the sisters could give any of them a good fight (Katara in particular would lose, with how little water she had there.  Which is probably why she ran from Azula).  That's beside my point.  Most of the fights Azula has been in are fights where she either has her own backup or it's a one on one fight.  There's no precedent for her to be able to solo a group of 8 competent benders, two of which being top tier earth and metalbenders.



Clearly you didn’t read anything I said or you’re just trying to block out the video where she was fighting Zuko and Aang simultaneously and had them outright on the run and even defeated until OTHERS came in to help them. She’s already shows feats to fight multiple opponents who are stronger than the 2 sisters and some shitty Fodderbenders who you think would pose a challenge to Azula. The sisters are "top tier" earth benders in the LOK verse, how can you still not see the LOA > LOK in terms of power levels? 



> Azula didn't destroy the building, it was already weakened by the bombardment with explosives.  P'li's own explosion sent several of the metalbenders flying off the cliff.    Plus, Azula's attack was a single attack.  She can't do that quickly, while P'li shoots her blasts in rapid succession.  It's not so much that the Zaofu guards can do anything individually to Azula, but she can't afford to just ignore them, and splitting her attention between 8 opponents including two elite earth/metalbenders means she's inevitably going to be hit.



Azula has a fucking firewall which defended from 4 point blank range bending powers, like some shitty rocks is gonna do anything. She can split buildings in half, her range can bring down opponents from mid air who were far away from her as she did with Aang, how are you denying these feats? Are you thick? The fodderbenders and the 2 sisters ain’t going to do jack shit. She can throw all the fodderbenders off the cliff with her offensive style, they literally pose no match for her and they won’t even make her swear. Her ability so skip around and dodge attacks + her speed is more than enough to overpower them then she deals with the sisters through her standards firebending. The 2 sisters were pinned down after fighting for like a minute, they’d get stomped by one of the best fights throughout the whole series. 



> When have I said Bolin could take down Azula?



Quiet sure you did when I made that Azula vs Team Mako thread and said something like Bolin can pose a challenge to Azula. Top lol


----------



## Amae (Oct 6, 2014)

I just remembered the additional metal benders in the P'Li fight just stood around like retards.


----------



## Rivers (Oct 6, 2014)

Amae said:


> Lightning flashes to blind the opposition as well as quick and one handed lightning generation.



The lightning flash is good if it's done near the opponent, but how well would that work for people at range distance...and having more than a pair of eyes behind cover to flash at the same time?

As for the quickdraw lightning feats, they were only powerful enough to shock the boomerang out of Sokka's hands.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 6, 2014)

Each of the young ones, Azula, Zuko (training after the dragons), Aang, Toph and Katara (given the right circumstances, like water), can beat these 2 sisters and the Fodderbenders. It's not even a question. Don't know why the 2 sisters are being put on this high pedestal. They get stomped.


----------



## Amae (Oct 6, 2014)

Rivers said:


> As for the quickdraw lightning feats, they were only powerful enough to shock the boomerang out of Sokka's hands.


Looks like  'ol .


----------



## Rivers (Oct 6, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Each of the young ones, Azula, Zuko (training after the dragons), Aang, Toph and Katara (given the right circumstances, like water), can beat these 2 sisters and the Fodderbenders. It's not even a question. Don't know why the 2 sisters are being put on this high pedestal. They get stomped.



Well it apparently is a question, since more than one person has claimed they definitely do lose here. And it's not simply bias attitudes that put them on this pedestal, but because of feats brought up below:



Reznor said:


> This is just generic TLA > LOK stuff.
> 
> They are plenty fast here:
> [YOUTUBE]OHv_TKM8kMA[/YOUTUBE]



Can we really say Zuko (even eos) has the agility to _easily_ dodge those attacks? Or the durability to tank and walk forward through those attacks? Or the firepower to burn past those defenses?

Or any variation of the supposed stat superiority over the Beifong Sisters above...to stomp them head on, no problems?


----------



## Banhammer (Oct 6, 2014)

A lot of the benefits of LOK speed are actually on account of evolution in production, than any contextual super human speed

Truth is, the bei phong sisters are fucked. They're wrapped like tinbags, and as Mako has already shown, it's a horrible idea to fight a lightningbender wearing a super conductor


----------



## Rivers (Oct 6, 2014)

Amae said:


> Looks like  'ol .



First picture of her is blasting a river, but there's no real time scale since it's not like we can see the river try to dodge, talk or prepare to redirect here blast -  the river is just there. The panel before that, is her screaming out her mind and the next is her lightninging the river, with no indication in the panels to gauge the amount of time that passes during those panels. The only real indication is the dialogue in the same panel. Which is actually a pretty long sentence to say, and whether she launches the lighting before, during or after her speech is subjective  - which wont settle anything here.

The second feat, well the panels actually indicate it's still has a long charge up time. Azula spends time threatening and Zuko has time to plead for her to stop, for two panels WHILE it's charging...ONLY firing it on the third panel.


----------



## Banhammer (Oct 6, 2014)

Is this the magical lightning bullshit argument again? What year is this? I'm going to be so royally pissed if it's still 2009


----------



## Rivers (Oct 6, 2014)

Banhammer said:


> Truth is, the bei phong sisters are fucked. They're wrapped like tinbags, and as Mako has already shown, it's a horrible idea to fight a lightningbender wearing a super conductor



Well you're fucked either way really. Ether lightningbending fries you from the water content in your body, or the metal armour you wear....you STILL go down no matter what. 

Though, Suyin has the same option she did in canon, and quickly manipulate the metal armour onto Azula's body as she charges her Lightningbending - which I dare say is slower than P'Li's Combustionbending.



Banhammer said:


> Is this the magical lightning bullshit argument again? What year is this? I'm going to be so royally pissed if it's still 2009



What are you talking about? Azula is charging her lightning *while she and Zuko are talking. *They are not talking at superhuman speed.


----------



## Banhammer (Oct 6, 2014)

It worked because they tricked P'lin, caught her from behind, and did it on combustions, not lightningbending

Not only is that trick never going to work on Sane Azula, (bitch wrote the book on dirty fighting) there's also the rather large elephant on the room that is , well, it's not fucking combustionbending


----------



## Rivers (Oct 6, 2014)

WTF man? I see no elephant in the room at all. You just admitted the armour is a great conductor of Azula's lightning. 

We already know there is a lot of electrical bolts coming off Azula's fingertips before she launches the Lightning. The metal pieces just has to make contact with any one of those bolts as they surround Azula's body to wreck not only the control of her lightningbending - but also her day.

It's not like I said Suyin would need to wrap the metal around Azula's head (ala against Combustionbending)...just disturb the high concentration and electrical flow needed to lighitningbend as the CONDUCTIVE armour hits her body...so what elephant are you talking about?


----------



## Wan (Oct 6, 2014)

Amae said:


> Lightning flashes to blind the opposition as well as quick and one handed lightning generation.



A close-range flash won't make a difference if the metalbenders keep their distance, and by the "one handed generation" do you mean when she shot Zuko?  There wasn't anything necessarily quick about it -- it takes several panels, so it's not instant and it doesn't contradict how long we saw her take in the show. Her alternate hand had two fingers pointed out, meaning she used it in the technique.  We just didn't see the charge get passed between the hands.



Pocalypse said:


> The slow motion effect is to portray Azula’s reaction towards the earth landslide attack. She reacted to it and easily dodged it, that’s the whole point. None of Toph’s attacks who is by far stronger than the 2 sisters and would stomp them with one hand could land hits on a Azula who was dicking around with no power and firebending to go on the offense. It was meant to show her prowess in defense as well because she's already excellent at offense. Imagine if she had her firebending at that time and fought Toph and Aang, they'd be in deep shit.



Point remains that actual attack that Azula reacted to from Toph wasn't fast, so Azula reacting to it and dodging it isn't really noteworthy when evaluating how she would fair against Lin and Suyin.



> Lol she boosted herself from a friggin building to the rope and still maintained the propulsion. It’s not limited at all, she can use it whenever she wants and she even used it to come back down from the tramline. Look at this video around the 2.22 mark. She was in mid air and travelling for a damn while she she propelled herself to go back to the other tram. It’s not even short and nothing suggests this, she can use it for any period of time as she wants. She only stops using it once she reaches her destination.



She cannot, however, use it as long as she wants in the air, or else she would not have needed to attach to the line.  That's a limit.  Plus jet propulsion isn't even that big a deal in Legend of Korra.  Mako's done a small scale version of it, and Iroh II and Korra have done larger versions of it.



> She dodged all the boulders which were dropping on her and tip toed around them. Those boulders were massive and the sisters didn’t throw boulders at P’Li, they were just a bunch of rocks which weren’t even close to the size that Azula dodged. She dodged multiple boulders and again, has the feats to back it up.



Even considering the ones being dropped on her, she only ever had to dodge one at a time and they weren't targeted at her.  The boulders Lin and Suyin threw at P'li were just as big:



Keep in mind that P'li is like 7 feet tall herself.



> That’s funny because whenever she fought she always had the other opponent running. Aang came to fight Azula and even waited for her there but after witnessing her power he decided to escape and run away. Azula is one of the top 5 fights in the series, and her feats back up that greatly with her multiple encounters with characters who were the pinnacle of their bending powers. But you keep downplaying Azula like she's fucking Asami level or some shit.



Are you deaf?  I just said Katara had her at a disadvantage when they fought in Crossroads of Destiny.  So no, she didn't always have her opponent on the run.



> Clearly you didn’t read anything I said or you’re just trying to block out the video where she was fighting Zuko and Aang simultaneously and had them outright on the run and even defeated until OTHERS came in to help them. She’s already shows feats to fight multiple opponents who are stronger than the 2 sisters and some shitty Fodderbenders who you think would pose a challenge to Azula. The sisters are "top tier" earth benders in the LOK verse, how can you still not see the LOA > LOK in terms of power levels?



She fought Zuko and Aang, but they were fighting themselves as much as they were Azula in a "Mexican standoff".  She came out on top, fair enough, but not alone.

ATLA and LOK _are the same verse._



> Azula has a fucking firewall which defended from 4 point blank range bending powers, like some shitty rocks is gonna do anything. She can split buildings in half, her range can bring down opponents from mid air who were far away from her as she did with Aang, how are you denying these feats? Are you thick? The fodderbenders and the 2 sisters ain’t going to do jack shit. She can throw all the fodderbenders off the cliff with her offensive style, they literally pose no match for her and they won’t even make her swear. Her ability so skip around and dodge attacks + her speed is more than enough to overpower them then she deals with the sisters through her standards firebending. The 2 sisters were pinned down after fighting for like a minute, they’d get stomped by one of the best fights throughout the whole series.



The 4 bending attacks she blocked were pretty pathetic.  Katara barely had any water on her and Toph just seemed to shoot a bunch of dust at her.



Azula doesn't "split buildings in half", she slices a corner off of a small rickety old western-style building:



And even if Azula managed to knock some of them off the cliff, they could hook onto the cliff and climb back up like they did when P'li knocked them off the cliff.

Seems to me like you're really wanking Azula here.



> Quiet sure you did when I made that Azula vs Team Mako thread and said something like Bolin can pose a challenge to Azula. Top lol



Nope, never did.



Banhammer said:


> A lot of the benefits of LOK speed are actually on account of evolution in production, than any contextual super human speed
> 
> Truth is, the bei phong sisters are fucked. They're wrapped like tinbags, and as Mako has already shown, it's a horrible idea to fight a lightningbender wearing a super conductor



That implies that Azula can land a hit on them with lightning in the first place; it would be foolish of her to even try when surrounded by so many opponents.  But yes, if Azula does hit them they would be screwed with or without their armor on.


----------



## Banhammer (Oct 7, 2014)

"Many opponents"? The Bei Phong sisters aren't "many opponents". The rabble doesn't even register as being there. It's an open and shut case. 

One of them gets one shot off the bat, the other one gets dodged like it's the day of the black son and then gets one shot


----------



## Bender (Oct 7, 2014)

Amae said:


> CM is stronger than P'Li, feats themselves back that up. Zuko's impromptu fire wall (before finding his new source for firebending and essentially getting a power boost) can hold back CM's blasts. Combustion Man and Zuko never had a proper fight.



Combustion Man couldn't bend his combustion blasts. P'li could. Also P'li was only killed after having a helmet bended over her head while Combustion man having his combustion disrupted died. When the same trick was done to P'li she didn't die. In short she showed more promise with her Combustion bending than Combustion man did.


----------



## Velocity (Oct 7, 2014)

Bender said:


> Combustion Man couldn't bend his combustion blasts. P'li could. Also P'li was only killed after having a helmet bended over her head while Combustion man having his combustion disrupted died. When the same trick was done to P'li she didn't die. In short she showed more promise with her Combustion bending than Combustion man did.



No... After Combustion Man was hit in the face, he tried Combustionbending. It literally blew up in his face and the explosion was enormous, easily several times the size of any explosion P'Li has shown. Bolin, on the other hand, hit P'Li as she was Combustionbending - screwing up her aim so the explosion was premature and hit the entire Red Lotus group.

She didn't show more promise at all. She simply never got the chance to try Combustionbending after her forehead was hit.

As for the redirecting of the combustionbending, so what? P'Li had 70 years of progress on her side. Using that as a basis for saying she's better than him is pointless. You might as well say Mako is a better Lightningbender than Azula or Toph's daughters are better Metalbenders than she is.


----------



## Bender (Oct 7, 2014)

@Velocity
P'li took down a dragon with her Combustion bending. Combustion man had like zero feats with his combustion bending only a pretty grim and tension building debut.  The only thing that was mildly amazing he did was hit Zuko's firewall with his combustion bending. Also she dispersed fire from a dragon one of the original firebender's. Now unless Zuko has done something of that nature or taken one down, eve. With his feat of redirecting lightning from his dad his taking on Combustion Man loses its flare. The fact that Combustion boy made barely any appearances and had done any real damage with his combustion attacks is frownful.

Toph's daughter Suyin could metalbend a liquid form of metal. Has Toph done that?  Experience or not Suyin has shown more impressiveness with her metalbending.


----------



## Velocity (Oct 7, 2014)

Bender said:


> @Velocity
> P'li took down a dragon with her Combustion bending. Combustion man had like zero feats with his combustion bending only a pretty grim and tension building debut.  The only thing that was mildly amazing he did was hit Zuko's firewall with his combustion bending. Also she dispersed fire from a dragon one of the original firebender's. Now unless Zuko has done something of that nature or taken one down, eve. With his feat of redirecting lightning from his dad his taking on Combustion Man loses its flare.



...and knowing that _killing_ dragons was considered a sport by the Fire Nation royal family makes the idea of taking a dragon on not that impressive, either. I mean, how many dragons do you think were killed during Sozin's reign? He bestowed upon anyone who could kill a dragon the title of "Dragon" and it's obvious there were more "Dragons" than Sozin, Ozai and Iroh - after all, there must have been hundreds of dragons and Iroh only managed to save two.

Ultimately, such information means the comparison is less "P'Li could fight a dragon so she's better than Combustion Man" and more "who says Combustion Man couldn't kill a dragon?" Heck, there's nothing to indicate Azula, Jeong Jeong, Aang or even Zuko couldn't kill a dragon if they wanted to.



> Toph's daughter Suyin could metalbend a liquid form of metal. Has Toph done that?  Experience or not Suyin has shown more impressiveness with her metalbending.



Again, just because we never saw Toph manipulate liquid metal before doesn't mean she couldn't do it. All it was is the application of Waterbending techniques to Metalbending, similar to how Iroh figured out how to redirect lightning by performing the same motions with Firebending. Do you seriously believe, even for a minute, that Toph would be weaker than her daughters in any field? She kinda taught them everything they know and there's no reason to assume whatever developments they made on their own, she didn't make as well at some point.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 7, 2014)

Current Toph is probably phenomenol at metalbending by now.

But I'd expect that Suyin and Lin are better metalbenders than end of TLA Toph.


----------



## Bender (Oct 7, 2014)

@Velocity


> Again, just because we never saw Toph manipulate liquid metal before doesn't mean she couldn't do it



What kind of logic is that? "Because we haven't seen her do it doesn't mean she can't do it". Seriously dude, that's a weak argument. The rest of your "maybe" or "could be" doesn't work. I'm speaking facts. If you're going to play conjectures then I won't respond to those

Also there are still many dragons around thanks to Iroh being secretive. Zuko being bestowed one is proof of that. Plus, P'li used her Combustionbending to take down and iconic element in the series. The only thing Combustion Man did with his was destroy part of a temple which the Gaang were taking refuge in.

Just to throw this out there, it's already been made clear LOK  season 3 was to show the cast breaking records over the previous one. There's Korra becoming a Metal bender, Bolin lavabending, Jinora becoming a Airbending master at age 11. And as mentioned before P'li toppling a dragon.


----------



## Velocity (Oct 7, 2014)

Reznor said:


> Current Toph is probably phenomenol at metalbending by now.
> 
> But I'd expect that Suyin and Lin are better metalbenders than end of TLA Toph.



That's not really a fair comparison, though, is it? They're, like, 40 years older than she was and she would've taught them personally. Since Toph didn't have kids until she was in her 30's, Lin and Suyin would've been taught by someone significantly more skilled than Toph was during Sozin's Comet.

Curiously enough, their Earthbending is nowhere near as good as Toph's was even 70 years ago.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 7, 2014)

> That's not really a fair comparison, though, is it?


 It doesn't need to be. My point isn't about innate talent or level playing field. 

TLA Toph probably is better at normal Earthbending than her daughters are in LOK, yeah. (Probably they were more focused on metalbending at that point.) Lin uses both Hun Gar and Toph's style, also has some degree of Toph's blindsight ability. Lin's attacks are faster, but Toph's have more power. Overall, def Toph's favor still, but Lin's got good earthbending in her own right.


----------



## Velocity (Oct 7, 2014)

Even so, it's not a very good comparison for many reasons - least of all that she only figured out Metalbending a few weeks or so before the end of the series. Lin and Suyin not only had forty years of their own Metalbending experience but also thirty to forty years of their mother's Metalbending experience too. A month or whatever doesn't really compare to all that.

It's not the same as comparing Aang's and Tenzin's Airbending, for example. Aang was already a master Airbender before the series began, so comparing his Airbending to another master of that element makes sense.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 7, 2014)

I'm not sure what you are getting it. Metalbending is something that Lin and Suyin grew up with, but Toph only had it for a few weeks in TLA? Yeah, that's why they are better at metalbending. Nuture not nature, practice not talent, sure.

The point is, Lin and Suyin are being pitted against people that people that dealt with 11 year old metal bending pioneer Toph, who didn't have what they have now.


> It's not the same as comparing Aang's and Tenzin's Airbending, for  example. Aang was already a master Airbender before the series began, so  comparing his Airbending to another master of that element makes sense.


 I don't get it. Why are we comparing what now?


----------



## Bender (Oct 7, 2014)

Yeah, how did we go from talking about the Beifong siblings to comparing Aang and Tenzin? Seriously that's just random as hell.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 7, 2014)

TLA v LOK threads always do that, because of need for basis of comparison.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 7, 2014)

Wan said:


> Point remains that actual attack that Azula reacted to from Toph wasn't fast, so Azula reacting to it and dodging it isn't really noteworthy when evaluating how she would fair against Lin and Suyin.



No, the point doesn?t remain because I?ve refuted your point several times. Did you ever think, why the hell would slow motion be implemented of an attack if it was already?slow? That?s just retarded. Slow motion is used to depict the fast attack and to show the character?s reactions and speed in dodging the said attack. So far all you do is downplay the opponents which Azula faced. ?Toph?s attacks are slow. Aang isn?t impressive, blah blah blah??



> She cannot, however, use it as long as she wants in the air, or else she would not have needed to attach to the line.  That's a limit.  Plus jet propulsion isn't even that big a deal in Legend of Korra.  Mako's done a small scale version of it, and Iroh II and Korra have done larger versions of it.



She attacked to the line so she could reach the tramline faster by boosting herself up. She?s able to fucking talk in mid air whilst she used her propulsion again and had plenty of time to keep staring downwards at Zuko, it?s not like she ran out of gas and started falling. Her prowess in that field isn?t limited at all.



> Even considering the ones being dropped on her, she only ever had to dodge one at a time and they weren't targeted at her.  The boulders Lin and Suyin threw at P'li were just as big:
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that P'li is like 7 feet tall herself.



Lol obviously she is going to dodge them one at a time. She dodges one boulder, moves, then dodges the next boulder. What?s your point? Clearly you miss the part where she shows the actual agility to tip toe around those boulders and even dodge the boulder which Aang threw at her. She was trying to stay on top of the drill, not go out of range and outright dodge all the boulders in one shot because she wanted to fight Aang. And please, what the fodder sisters make isn?t boulders, it?s just rocks.



> Are you deaf?  I just said Katara had her at a disadvantage when they fought in Crossroads of Destiny.  So no, she didn't always have her opponent on the run.



Okay, one instance where Katara grabbed Azula by the hands and feet. So you?re going to use that one example to outclass all the other encounters? Funny how you don?t mention Azula not being impressive there?even in that fight against Aang she used propulsion to charge at Aang and blasted him all the way background through a building even when he covered himself with those diamonds to use as armor, thanks for reminding me off that episode. Another feat to give Azula.  Propulsion + fire blast = GG.



> She fought Zuko and Aang, but they were fighting themselves as much as they were Azula in a "Mexican standoff".  She came out on top, fair enough, but not alone.



LOL. Aang and Zuko were NOT fighting each other at all. Zuko was thinking on who he should fight but Azula made the first move and one-shotted him then fought both of them simultaneously. There never was a instance where Zuko decided to attack Aang. How can you say she wasn?t alone? 

Like?what? She was the only there you idiot. It looks ?alone? because she takes care of one opponent first then focuses on the other one. She would have killed Zuko and Aang if Katara didn?t come. Then she would have killed her too if Toph didn?t surprise attack/trip whatever it was. She thins down the group. Also, Aang and that version of Zuko are individually much stronger than each of the 2 sisters, unless you're implying the 2 sisters are >>>> Toph which is laughable . Azula has faced much tougher opponents. 



> ATLA and LOK _are the same verse._



So what if they are the same verse? Part I Naruto and Part II Naruto are the same verse. Are you gonna tell me Part I Naruto powerlevels >>>> part II Naruto powerlevels? It?s a established fact that LOA power levels are much stronger than LOK power levels, like?we are at the 4th season now and you still fail to realize this. It?s mind blowing. You?ve got like?5 or 6 people here with votes saying the metal benders loose against either Zuko or Azula and you?re like ?No, Lin and Suyin are too many opponents? (Quantity doesn?t mean quality). 

Plus with your reputation in other LOA vs LOK threads you always hype the LOK characters to some multiversal level and then everyone literally disagrees with you. You need to seriously learn when you?re in the wrong. I mean, when you made a Team 7 vs Red Lotus thread, and I showed you a feat of Naruto vs Sasuke?s Rasengan/Chidori clash at VOTE and demonstrated the power and the range of that attack, you?re like ?their clothes were unscathed so the clash wasn?t destructive? ck



> The 4 bending attacks she blocked were pretty pathetic.  Katara barely had any water on her and Toph just seemed to shoot a bunch of dust at her.



Here we go again with the poor excuse of ?any attacks or characters aimed at Azula were unimpressive?. This is a new trend with you now isn?t it?  Oh man?like, wow LOL yeah they really would go easy on her and Toph would throw ?dust? at Azula because they are best friends. 



> Azula doesn't "split buildings in half", she slices a corner off of a small rickety old western-style building:





> And even if Azula managed to knock some of them off the cliff, they could hook onto the cliff and climb back up like they did when P'li knocked them off the cliff.
> 
> Seems to me like you're really wanking Azula here.



No it?s not wanking. I used feats to portray her power which is justified. You have way more people in support of either Zuko or Azula (more Azula) whilst you harp on about the 2 sisters like they are something special. Who?s the one wanking now? You just come out with everything being unimpressive and even blame construction part of the LOA verse to downplay Azula. You actually said in that Team Mako thread that Mako, Bolin and Asami (Way before the Red Lotus fights) can beat Azula   I actually think she can use that fireblast she used to bring down Aang from midair from a quiet big distance to literally throw all the Fodderbenders off the cliff then focus on soloing the 2 sisters. 



> That implies that Azula can land a hit on them with lightning in the first place; it would be foolish of her to even try when surrounded by so many opponents.  But yes, if Azula does hit them they would be screwed with or without their armor on.



Implying Azula can't land hits on them without lightning in the first place. Azula doesn't remain static you know, she's always moving around jumping, dodging things left, right and centre and able to fire off attacks at the same time. If the 2 sisters hide behind some rocks Azula will just blast them off the rooftop. There is no such thing as "leaving themselves open" for attacks, Avatar characters are speedblitzers.


----------



## Gunners (Oct 7, 2014)

Zuko and Azula would get fucked up. They're not beating a team of experienced metal benders.


Reznor said:


> Current Toph is probably phenomenol at metalbending by now.
> 
> But I'd expect that Suyin and Lin are better metalbenders than end of TLA Toph.



Precision, control and quantity all go in favour of Lin and Suyin. As you said, Toph, at her peak, is most definitely the no. 1 Metalbender but her daughters clearly surpass what she was capable of in book3.


----------



## Banhammer (Oct 7, 2014)

IS THE MIDDLE AGE METAL BENDER BETTER THAN THE TWELVE YEAR OLD WHO INVENTED THE CRAFT?

IS SHE ?


----------



## Wan (Oct 7, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Also, Aang and that version of Zuko are individually much stronger than each of the 2 sisters, unless you're implying the 2 sisters are >>>> Toph which is laughable . Azula has faced much tougher opponents.



In that fight, negative.  Aang hadn't unlocked earthbending at that point, and he had no water on him so he had only airbending at his disposal.  Zuko was weary from traveling and not in a good mental state.  Toph hadn't even developed metalbending herself.  Lin and Suyin would be a match for any of them in that scenario at that point in the series.



> So what if they are the same verse? Part I Naruto and Part II Naruto are the same verse. Are you gonna tell me Part I Naruto powerlevels >>>> part II Naruto powerlevels? It’s a established fact that LOA power levels are much stronger than LOK power levels, like…we are at the 4th season now and you still fail to realize this. It’s mind blowing. You’ve got like…5 or 6 people here with votes saying the metal benders loose against either Zuko or Azula and you’re like “No, Lin and Suyin are too many opponents” (Quantity doesn’t mean quality).



That's a false comparison, Part 2 Naruto has the same protagonists as Part 1 Naruto, just years later and power creeped a bunch, and stronger villains.  That makes it automatically better than Part 2.  If anything, going by that comparison LoK characters should be _better_ than ATLA characters, because they came later.  But in reality they're different characters from the same verse, so each character should be evaluated individually for the whole verse.  There's no basis for a blanket claim that LOK characters are weaker than ATLA characters.  Taking the ATLA/LOK verse as a whole, Lin and Suyin are top tier earthbenders/metalbenders.  They're comparable to Toph and who else would tier above them?  Bumi?

And among people who are actually making rational posts, most seem to agree that Zuko or Azula can't individually take it.  With regards to the poll, I think people are voting before realizing the scenario has Zuko and Azula each fighting alone.  Polls suck for vs. threads anyways, it's just an appeal to popularity fallacy.



> Plus with your reputation in other LOA vs LOK threads you always hype the LOK characters to some multiversal level and then everyone literally disagrees with you. You need to seriously learn when you’re in the wrong. I mean, when you made a Team 7 vs Red Lotus thread, and I showed you a feat of Naruto vs Sasuke’s Rasengan/Chidori clash at VOTE and demonstrated the power and the range of that attack, you’re like “their clothes were unscathed so the clash wasn’t destructive”



"Multiversal level"?  Do you want me to not take you seriously?



> No it’s not wanking. I used feats to portray her power which is justified. You have way more people in support of either Zuko or Azula (more Azula) whilst you harp on about the 2 sisters like they are something special. Who’s the one wanking now? You just come out with everything being unimpressive and even blame construction part of the LOA verse to downplay Azula. You actually said in that Team Mako thread that Mako, Bolin and Asami (Way before the Red Lotus fights) can beat Azula.  I actually think she can use that fireblast she used to bring down Aang from midair from a quiet big distance to literally throw all the Fodderbenders off the cliff then focus on soloing the 2 sisters.



Most of your argument boiled down to "Yeah, well, you're wrong, because I say so!".  If you want to keep living in a fantasy land where Azula is some broken character who can solo 2 elite metalbenders supported by 6 competent metalbenders, go right ahead.



> There is no such thing as "leaving themselves open" for attacks, Avatar characters are speedblitzers.



  What ATLA did you watch?



Banhammer said:


> IS THE MIDDLE AGE METAL BENDER BETTER THAN THE TWELVE YEAR OLD WHO INVENTED THE CRAFT?
> 
> IS SHE ?



YEP.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 7, 2014)

Wan said:


> In that fight, negative.  Aang hadn't unlocked earthbending at that point, and he had no water on him so he had only airbending at his disposal.  Zuko was weary from traveling and not in a good mental state.  Toph hadn't even developed metalbending herself.  Lin and Suyin would be a match for any of them in that scenario at that point in the series.



Irrelvant. Aang or Zuko showed no signs of fatigue when it actually came to the fighting. Aang doesn’t need to have other bending abilities to beat each of the sisters on a 1 v 1 basis. And none of the sisters are going to pose a threat to Toph, who you think she needs metalbending to take down the 2 sisters. Toph actually has a much easier fight against the 2 sisters than Azula does due to the match-up issue of them being Earthbenders, Toph just overpowers the shit out of them, heck she one-shots them from any angle.



> That's a false comparison, Part 2 Naruto has the same protagonists as Part 1 Naruto, just years later and power creeped a bunch, and stronger villains.  That makes it automatically better than Part 2.  If anything, going by that comparison LoK characters should be _better_ than ATLA characters, because they came later.  But in reality they're different characters from the same verse, so each character should be evaluated individually for the whole verse.  There's no basis for a blanket claim that LOK characters are weaker than ATLA characters.  Taking the ATLA/LOK verse as a whole, Lin and Suyin are top tier earthbenders/metalbenders.  They're comparable to Toph and who else would tier above them?  Bumi?



No, the comparison was to show that they may be in the same verse but that doesn’t mean the characters from both versions of timeskips are the same when it comes to power levels, where you think I was going trying to say LOK > LOA in terms of power levels, I have no clue. And of course there is basis, it’s called feats and the feats shows LOA > LOK. I mean, we are 4 seasons in and you don’t realise this. You don't evaluate characters just because they are from the same verse, you evaluate them by feats and portrayal. There's no shame in LOA characters being stronger than LOK characters. 



> And among people who are actually making rational posts, most seem to agree that Zuko or Azula can't individually take it.  With regards to the poll, I think people are voting before realizing the scenario has Zuko and Azula each fighting alone.  Polls suck for vs. threads anyways, it's just an appeal to popularity fallacy.



Who is this most seem to agree and define “rational posts”? Are:


“Aang wasn’t impressive”
“Toph threw dust at Azula”

And downplaying other characters who fought Azula is rational? Even putting blame on the construction of a building ck

Funny because you voted in the poll, so you come out and blame others for not reading the thread properly  Nice strawman. Nothing to do with popularity, people just know what they are talking about, you don’t. 



> "Multiversal level"?  Do you want me to not take you seriously?



Well it’s you. I wouldn’t be surprised. Remember you did say explosions and destructive capacity mean nothing if the clothes of characters are unscathed ck



> Most of your argument boiled down to "Yeah, well, you're wrong, because I say so!".  If you want to keep living in a fantasy land where Azula is some broken character who can solo 2 elite metalbenders supported by 6 competent metalbenders, go right ahead.



Most, if not all, of your argument boiled down to:

1) Denying feats which I provided countless times to refute your points
2) Downplaying other characters and their feats when they fought Azula but used favoritism by using Katara (nice trick btw, funny you didn't mention Azula not being impressive there but you gave me another feat I can use of her using her propulsion + fire blast)
3) Azula can’t fight multiple opponents when there’s a clear cut video of it
4) 2 sisters being many opponents, like quantity matters over quality. 

But keep thinking the sisters are “elite”, and “comparable” to Toph and the Fodderbenders somehow can pose a challenge. They are nothing but scrubs. The two sister’s standards are not even close to Azula’s or Toph’s level, not even a bit. You don't seen to take the level of the opponents at hand here. You think just because they fought P'Li they can somehow take on Azula, Zuko, Aang and Toph (not collectively). 



> What ATLA did you watch?



You act like if Azula attacks, she will get one-shotted straight away like Lin and Suyin have some flash level speed going for them. Again, they are not speedblitzers.


----------



## Wan (Oct 7, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Irrelvant. Aang or Zuko showed no signs of fatigue when it actually came to the fighting.



_Aang had rings under his eyes._





> And none of the sisters are going to pose a threat to Toph, who you think she needs metalbending to take down the 2 sisters. Toph actually has a much easier fight against the 2 sisters than Azula does due to the match-up issue of them being Earthbenders, Toph just overpowers the shit out of them, heck she one-shots them from any angle.



Toph could very well have an easier time with Suyin or Lin, but no, she doesn't oneshot them.



> And of course there is basis, it’s called feats



Exactly.  We go by feats for each character, not some blanket assumption that characters in one time period are worse than the other.



> and the feats shows LOA > LOK.



Nope.  Let me just run down a list of characters from LoK that would beat Azula handily:

--Tarrlok
--Amon
--Dark Avatar Unalaq
--Korra

And characters who would give Azula a decent fight individually:

--Zaheer
--P'li
--Ghazan
--Ming Hua
--Tenzin
--Suyin
--Lin
--Tonraq
--Probably Kuvira.  We'll see as book 4 goes on.


> Who is this most seem to agree and define “rational posts”?



Well in particular there's Amae; I would never presume to speak for Amae as he'll be the first to tell you we don't agree on things concerning Azula and ATLA, but even he admitted that Zuko and Azula would lose individually in this scenario.  Most posters who have said the metalbenders win don't seem interested in voting in the poll.



> Well it’s you. I wouldn’t be surprised. Remember you did say explosions and destructive capacity mean nothing if the clothes of characters are unscathed



You wouldn't be surprised if I claimed LoK was multiversal?  Give me a fucking break. With the feat in question there was _no_ other thing to go by for destructive capacity; the explosion was flashy but had done no actual damage to the surroundings, nor any visible damage to Sasuke and Naruto.



> You act like if Azula attacks, she will get one-shotted straight away like Lin and Suyin have some flash level speed going for them. Again, they are not speedblitzers.



Er, that doesn't really have much to do with what I was responding to, but either way.  No, that's no my argument.  My argument basically amounts to this:

Lin and Suyin are each capable of doing damage to Azula, be it through hitting her with a boulder, grabbing her with their metal cords and knocking her around, or piercing her with pieces of metal.    They can also defend against a basic uncharged blast from Azula.  Azula is capable of breaking their defenses with a more powerful, charged up fireblast, but it would not oneshot Suyin or Lin, seeing how Lin survived having her earth wall blown threw by P'li.  Attempting a charged shot leaves Azula open to attack by anyone other than her target.  If Azula sticks with uncharged shots, she gets nowhere against Suyin and Lin's defenses and eventually gets tagged and goes down.  If she tries a charged shot, it doesn't win the fight for her and gives her a greater chance of being tagged.  I think that just Suyin and Lin would beat Azula most of the time; on a really, really good day Azula could manage a win against them, and that's where the 6 extra metalbenders in this scenario come in, essentially assuring Azula can't obtain that sort of advantage.

Lightning is a non-starter because it leaves her open to attack from any of the metalbenders even more so than a charged fireblast does.

It doesn't rely on Lin and Suyin having "Flash-level speed" or being "speedblitzers".  It relies on them knowing to take advantage when an enemy gives them an opening, like how they strategized to distract P'li so she would be open for Suyin to take her out.


----------



## Bender (Oct 7, 2014)

While I'd love to add more of my input my Environmental Biology mid-terms are my bitch atm. 
As Wan said in above post "rings around eyes be a sign of fatigue" so yeah. Folks seeing lots of downplaying of LOK.


----------



## Brightsteel (Oct 7, 2014)

How would Amon do in The Last Airbender, if I may ask? o.o


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 7, 2014)

Wan said:


> _Aang had rings under his eyes._



Did that hamper him in any way of fighting? Did he suddenly faint or lose control in fighting? He seemed fine to me when he was busting out his techniques. Going by that logic Azula was also chasing him down for days in that train thing. 



> Toph could very well have an easier time with Suyin or Lin, but no, she doesn't oneshot them.



Toph sends them packing. And this is just one of her brilliant showings.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukr5c07gaUI[/YOUTUBE]

Don’t even need to explain. Toph one-shots. She can sense, dodge every attack, absorb every attack to her advantage, take control of her opponents attacks and smash them. 



> Exactly.  We go by feats for each character, not some blanket assumption that characters in one time period are worse than the other.



How does this refute my point? I am saying the feats in LOA > LOK. This is  obvious to literally anyone with a brain. 



> Nope.  Let me just run down a list of characters from LoK that would beat Azula handily:
> 
> --Tarrlok
> --Amon
> ...



Is this supposed to make me say Azula beats them 4, half of them being bloodbenders? And you’re really using that? Well then, Hama one shots anyone in LOK apart from Amon and Tarrlok. Bloodbenders are the most haxxed, a non-bloodbender doesn’t stand a chance against them so I don’t know why you’re trying to say they can beat Azula when that is obvious but nice try. 



> And characters who would give Azula a decent fight individually:
> 
> --Zaheer
> --P'li
> ...



As for this list, only Zaheer and Tenzin can give her a challenge because you know, Tenzin for example has actually show something impressive against his fight with Zaheer. The rest she trashes on a 1 v 1 basis. Azula’s feats > in any of those characters listed btw due to her facing much tougher opponents than any of the characters listed there.



> Well in particular there's Amae; I would never presume to speak for Amae as he'll be the first to tell you we don't agree on things concerning Azula and ATLA, but even he admitted that Zuko and Azula would lose individually in this scenario.  Most posters who have said the metalbenders win don't seem interested in voting in the poll.



2 people voted for Metalbenders winning. 6 people voted for Azula to win, 5 from that list voted that Zuko can win. It’s really only you who overhypes LOK characters. And this is about you and your rational posts considering you don’t seem to find my posts which show the actual feats and portrayal as rational. Only answer you have is "X character isn't impressive. X character was tired. Y building wasn't made out of sturdy materials etc"



> You wouldn't be surprised if I claimed LoK was multiversal?  Give me a fucking break. With the feat in question there was _no_ other thing to go by for destructive capacity; the explosion was flashy but had done no actual damage to the surroundings, nor any visible damage to Sasuke and Naruto.



It took Naruto out. He was lying there unconscious. You don’t need to see his guts and organs busting out from his body to evaluate the power. The size itself of the destruction is enough to evaluate it. So when DBZ characters send country busting techniques out and they don’t lose their clothes, do you think they are building level or some crap?



> Er, that doesn't really have much to do with what I was responding to, but either way.  No, that's no my argument.  My argument basically amounts to this:
> 
> Lin and Suyin are each capable of doing damage to Azula, be it through hitting her with a boulder, grabbing her with their metal cords and knocking her around, or piercing her with pieces of metal.



They don’t create boulders, it’s just rocks. She destroys them with her bare hands or uses fire as a boost to destroy them or she just outright dodges all the slow rocks which are aimed at her. She creates a firewall to defend against any metal staplers that the sisters throw out. The cables won’t even reach Azula, with her acrobatic agility being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> P’Li + the 2 fodder sisters, they won’t even tag her.    



> They can also defend against a basic uncharged blast from Azula.  Azula is capable of breaking their defenses with a more powerful, charged up fireblast, but it would not oneshot Suyin or Lin, seeing how Lin survived having her earth wall blown threw by P'li.  Attempting a charged shot leaves Azula open to attack by anyone other than her target.  If Azula sticks with uncharged shots, she gets nowhere against Suyin and Lin's defenses and eventually gets tagged and goes down.  If she tries a charged shot, it doesn't win the fight for her and gives her a greater chance of being tagged.



Azula’s blasts are more destructive than P’Li’s. Azula’s blasts can rip down buildings, they have a big range of taking down opponents from mid air like Aang and he was quiet far from her because he was escaping in the opposite direction, her fire blasts can destroy any earth armour and diamond armor and send the opponent flying back as she did with Aang in the catacombs through her ability to use propulsion and rip a fire blast at him. Azula doesn’t have this slow and recharge time to make charged fireblasts, she does it instantly because her opponents is mostly defending all the time and they can’t do anything to even launch an attack at her even when she amplifies her blasts. 



> I think that just Suyin and Lin would beat Azula most of the time; on a really, really good day Azula could manage a win against them, and that's where the 6 extra metalbenders in this scenario come in, essentially assuring Azula can't obtain that sort of advantage.



If Azula is drunk, has one hand tied behind her back, and blindfolded, then sure, Lin and Suyin win against Azula. 99.9% of the time if she faces the two sisters this is the likely scenario:

Fodder sisters kick the ground and throw rocks at Azula, she destroys them or dodges them then sends a fireblast at them. They defend, then Azula keeps sending fireblasts or uses her propulsion + fireblast to blast them off the rooftop or smash them somewhere else off the building. Or she uses her ranged fireblasts and any small metal attacks the sisters throw, Azula defends with her fire shield. 



> Lightning is a non-starter because it leaves her open to attack from any of the metalbenders even more so than a charged fireblast does.



Stop with this bullshit of Azula being slow like she can't sent out attacks simultanously when she can. It doesn't take hours for her to charge up her shots and when she does do these charged up shots, why the fuck didn't her opponents speedblitz or one-shot Azula then? Ridiculous. Lightning is like the last resort if she needed it to use. 



> It doesn't rely on Lin and Suyin having "Flash-level speed" or being "speedblitzers".  It relies on them knowing to take advantage when an enemy gives them an opening, like how they strategized to distract P'li so she would be open for Suyin to take her out.



I will break it down for you. Azula has better speed, reactions, and acrobatic skills than both the sisters and P’Li. She isn't going to fall for some cheap trick, they'll be dead before they can even think of a strategy. Again, for reference, see the feats I have shown in previous pages or go on Azulatv youtube webpage to see her fighting multiple, stronger opponents than the 2 fodder sisters.



Brightsteel said:


> How would Amon do in The Last Airbender, if I may ask? o.o



Do very well. Bloodbending is hax as fuck, probably the most haxxed technique there is. That's why there are no blood bender threads because you really can't do anything against...you know, your blood being controlled ck


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 7, 2014)

Oh and I can't believe Wan used Avatar Unalaq as an example to beat Azula ck

Damn.

ck


----------



## Amae (Oct 7, 2014)

Bender said:


> P'li took down a dragon with her Combustion bending.


Pretty meaningless.



> Combustion man had like zero feats with his combustion bending only a pretty grim and tension building debut.


CM has more power behind his bending, the craters and damage he has done is above P'Li's. The only definite advantage she has over him is precision.



> Attempting a charged shot leaves Azula open to attack by anyone other than her target.


Not really. She didn't just somersault kick to perform a charge attack as far as I can  (the somersault only took a second), it wasn't really no significant difference to leave an opening.


----------



## Bender (Oct 7, 2014)

@Amae
Craters don't mean jack if there wasn't a body in any of them. Check the Ultimatum again, bro P'li's Combustion bending caused the most damage to the Air temple next to Ghazan's lava bending which ultimately wasted the place by the next episode.
Also taking down a dragon...meaningless? Yeah, okay. Go back and look why that was a big deal amongst ppl in Fire Nation. Also list someone iconic that Combustion Man took down with his Combustion bending. I'll do it for you, there was no one he took down relevant to the plot. He was a waste of screen time and a shoddy character (IMO).

I'm done for today.


----------



## Banhammer (Oct 7, 2014)

Toph's mastery of earth sight over her daughters has her at 12 years old curb stomping either sister


----------



## Wan (Oct 7, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Did that hamper him in any way of fighting? Did he suddenly faint or lose control in fighting? He seemed fine to me when he was busting out his techniques. Going by that logic Azula was also chasing him down for days in that train thing.



It could have.  And no, Azula did not have the same rings under her eyes.  She hadn't been driving that tank.



> Toph sends them packing. And this is just one of her brilliant showings.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukr5c07gaUI[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Don?t even need to explain. Toph one-shots. She can sense, dodge every attack, absorb every attack to her advantage, take control of her opponents attacks and smash them.



Soloing a bunch of fodder earthbenders, how delightful.



> Is this supposed to make me say Azula beats them 4, half of them being bloodbenders? And you?re really using that? Well then, Hama one shots anyone in LOK apart from Amon and Tarrlok. Bloodbenders are the most haxxed, a non-bloodbender doesn?t stand a chance against them so I don?t know why you?re trying to say they can beat Azula when that is obvious but nice try.



Well yeah, with a full moon Hama solos just about any non-Avatar.  Waterbenders can counter bloodbending with their own, though.



> As for this list, only Zaheer and Tenzin can give her a challenge because you know, Tenzin for example has actually show something impressive against his fight with Zaheer. The rest she trashes on a 1 v 1 basis. Azula?s feats > in any of those characters listed btw due to her facing much tougher opponents than any of the characters listed there.



Got a feat from Azula on the level of collapsing the wall of Ba Sing Se, or covering the Northern Air Temple in lava?



> It took Naruto out. He was lying there unconscious. You don?t need to see his guts and organs busting out from his body to evaluate the power. The size itself of the destruction is enough to evaluate it. So when DBZ characters send country busting techniques out and they don?t lose their clothes, do you think they are building level or some crap?



Naruto was on his last leg and chidori would have done that _anyways_, so the explosion doesn't factor in.  There was no destruction to begin with.



> They don?t create boulders, it?s just rocks. She destroys them with her bare hands or uses fire as a boost to destroy them or she just outright dodges all the slow rocks which are aimed at her. She creates a firewall to defend against any metal staplers that the sisters throw out. The cables won?t even reach Azula, with her acrobatic agility being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> P?Li + the 2 fodder sisters, they won?t even tag her.



Rocks, boulders, whatever you want to call them, you're blatantly wanking Azula if you're saying she destroys them with her hands.



> Azula?s blasts are more destructive than P?Li?s. Azula?s blasts can rip down buildings, they have a big range of taking down opponents from mid air like Aang and he was quiet far from her because he was escaping in the opposite direction, her fire blasts can destroy any earth armour and diamond armor and send the opponent flying back as she did with Aang in the catacombs through her ability to use propulsion and rip a fire blast at him. Azula doesn?t have this slow and recharge time to make charged fireblasts, she does it instantly because her opponents is mostly defending all the time and they can?t do anything to even launch an attack at her even when she amplifies her blasts.



Azula can slice the corners of rickety wooden buildings, not more impressive than P'li leaving craters in solid rock formations.

What feat taking out Aang from the air are you talking about, exactly?



> Stop with this bullshit of Azula being slow like she can't sent out attacks simultanously when she can. It doesn't take hours for her to charge up her shots and when she does do these charged up shots, why the fuck didn't her opponents speedblitz or one-shot Azula then? Ridiculous. Lightning is like the last resort if she needed it to use.



Opponents don't one-shot Azula because she generally isn't surrounded by 8 enemies including 2 elite ones, and when she is in such a situation she doesn't leave herself easily open with a charged shot like that.



Pocalypse said:


> Oh and I can't believe Wan used Avatar Unalaq as an example to beat Azula.



He stomps her.  If Katara could catch her in waterbending arms, Unalaq would have an easy time of it.  He needs to avoid using the waterspout technique, but he doesn't need it against Azula.



Amae said:


> Not really. She didn't just somersault kick to perform a charge attack as far as I can  (the somersault only took a second), it wasn't really no significant difference to leave an opening.



Even a second can be a critical opening.  And look at the position it leaves Azula.  Lol, is she about to fall on her ass?  The moments of recovery from such a move would provide an additional opening.



Banhammer said:


> Toph's mastery of earth sight over her daughters has her at 12 years old curb stomping either sister



Lin knows earth sight as well, and being Toph's daughter I would bet the farm on Suyin knowing it too.


----------



## Banhammer (Oct 7, 2014)

Lin has never used earth sight with the ability toph has, only the one off to sense if there caves somewhere. Suyin not even that.

Especially not suyin who so often shuned her mother's influence

you can't just project these abilities off your fantasies


The fact that you do, is very telling of your other arguments we needn't bleed much time over


----------



## Wan (Oct 7, 2014)

Banhammer said:


> Lin has never used earth sight with the ability toph has, only the one off to sense if there caves somewhere. Suyin not even that.
> 
> Especially not suyin who so often shuned her mother's influence
> 
> ...



Toph had to use it specifically to scan caves as well (detecting the catacombs under Ba Sing Se, detecting the bunker under the Fire Nation capital).  Outside of her first episode with the "echo location" stylistic touch, we never see an explicit illustration like that.  We don't need to see it to understand that Toph is using earth sense in a fight, nor do we need it for Lin.

Suyin shunned off her mother's influences, but she had to have learned metalbending from her when she was young.  It's more of a fantasy to think that Toph wouldn't teach her own daughter the ability that made her special.


----------



## Amae (Oct 7, 2014)

Got any durability feats for a dragon in the verse? The acclaim from killing a dragon was irrelevant to both comment since it had to do with P'li's firepower (You: "P'li took down a dragon with her Combustion bending"). Who's actually taken out dragons and what are their feats? You don't know? In addition to that, dragons were evidently taken out without combustion bending, pretty meaningless accomplishment in terms of accessing her firepower.



> Craters don't mean jack if there wasn't a body in any of them. Check the Ultimatum again, bro P'li's Combustion bending caused the most damage to the Air temple next to Ghazan's lava bending which ultimately wasted the place by the next episode.



>Craters mean nothing
>Check out those craters

....

 is , 's my  point , and whoever's attacks cause more damage obviously proves it (unless you're an idiot that can't understand that).



			
				Wan said:
			
		

> Even a second can be a critical opening. And look at the position it leaves Azula. Lol, is she about to fall on her ass? The moments of recovery from such a move would provide an additional opening.


There is no significant time difference between it and regular bending. How about a concrete example if you're so adamant it spells her death? As if flipping about was a prerequisite to charging her firebending. 



> Got a feat from Azula on the level of collapsing the wall of Ba Sing Se, or covering the Northern Air Temple in lava?



 That lava took awhile. If you consider P'li on par with that level of bending, Azula is.


----------



## Wan (Oct 8, 2014)

Amae said:


> There is no significant time difference between it and regular bending. How about a concrete example if you're so adamant it spells her death? As if flipping about was a prerequisite to charging her firebending.



Azula's most powerful firebending moves seem to involve using both of her feet, which requires a flip of some kind to pull off.  She also has this:



a similarly powerful and explosive attack, which performed by flipping and using both feet (don't overstate how destructive the feat was, though; the platform collapses, but it had already been weakened by sustained bombardment by the airship fleet and was still bombarded for a few moments after Azula's blast).  If flipping isn't a prerequisite for Azula's stronger charged attacks, then aside from the kicking attack on the drill, when has Azula actually blasted through earthbending defenses?



> That lava took awhile. If you consider P'li on par with that level of bending, Azula is.



Lightning is powerful, I wasn't questioning that, but it has its drawbacks.  When it comes to sheer scale of feats, Ghazan has her beat.  I wouldn't consider P'li on the same scale as Ghazan, either.


----------



## Banhammer (Oct 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> Toph had to use it specifically to scan caves as well (detecting the catacombs under Ba Sing Se, detecting the bunker under the Fire Nation capital).



I accept your concession of toph's superior talents. She could also lie detect, an ability neither sister held even though one if them was a cop! With officers on the take!


----------



## Rivers (Oct 8, 2014)

Reznor said:


> I'm not sure what you are getting it. Metalbending is something that Lin and Suyin grew up with, but Toph only had it for a few weeks in TLA? Yeah, that's why they are better at metalbending. Nuture not nature, practice not talent, sure.
> 
> The point is, Lin and Suyin are being pitted against people that dealt with 11 year old metal bending pioneer Toph, who didn't have what they have now.



That's a reasonable point. Lin and Suyin should be better Metalbenders than TLA Toph. 

The latter would still be better than them in Earthbending due to her 11 years of blindness and her heavy reliance on Earth Sense. But they are not fighting Toph here so that's shouldn't really be an issue in this thread. 

The Beifong Sisters have shown top-tier Metalbending (for now, depending on this season's metalbending centric arc), and can seamlessly incorporate  traditional Earthbending with their Metalbending no problems.

In particular, Suyin's guide-by-Metalbending arm blades would give Mai's shurikens a run for their money, while the former would still use Earthbended walls for cover.


----------



## Banhammer (Oct 8, 2014)

Reznor said:


> Current Toph is probably phenomenol at metalbending by now.
> 
> But I'd expect that Suyin and Lin are better metalbenders than end of TLA Toph.



Actually Book 4 toph has her disabling hordes of fire nation tanks with a single move


----------



## tari101190 (Oct 8, 2014)

Well...

Based on these two specific scenarios.

There is no way that one master firebender is defeating two metal/earth bending masters backed-up by 6 expert metal/earthbenders.

I dunno really. I was hesitant to reply because the way I think of fights doesn't seem to mesh well with you guys.

All of the specifics like who the characters are, being a prodigy or not, whether they're sane or not, or using swords or not, are all superfluous details.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> It could have.  And no, Azula did not have the same rings under her eyes.  She hadn't been driving that tank.



There is no ?it could have?. This is just fan fiction. Aang was in no way shape or form hampered by this ?fatigue? that you claim off so stop with your bullshit. So what if she didn?t drive the tank? She was still chasing them and was awake when she was, but do you see me making excuses of Azula being tired or whatever? Case in point, Aang was his usual self and showed no signs of restraints. 



> Soloing a bunch of fodder earthbenders, how delightful.



Point was to show that when multiple opponents charge at her, she can cause an earthquake and send them back, and use the dust to her advantage to throw attacks in. Plus her sensing, speed, power, agility and even reactions is far above the sisters. The two sisters are useless fighters, they are not in the same tier or even in the league with Azula or Toph. This was just one video of her prowess, she's got many other feats which trump the fodder sisters in a few seconds flat.



> Well yeah, with a full moon Hama solos just about any non-Avatar.  Waterbenders can counter bloodbending with their own, though.



Your point? The fact that you look for blood benders as examples of defeating Azula just goes to show you?re running out of ideas and grasping at straws. 



> Got a feat from Azula on the level of collapsing the wall of Ba Sing Se, or covering the Northern Air Temple in lava?



Ghazan had shit load of time to cover the Air temple in Lava, not like he did it with one shot. Give Katara time and she can cover it with water. Give Azula time and she can incinerate it with fire. Give Toph time and she can smash the temple into pieces. Again, your point? 



> Naruto was on his last leg and chidori would have done that _anyways_, so the explosion doesn't factor in.  There was no destruction to begin with.



Naruto wasn?t on his last leg, wtf? He was in KN1 Kyuubi mode and launched a Rasengan. They were equal in terms of stamina. Just that Sasuke won the fight. You do know you got ridiculed for the clothing comment in that thread, right? How stupid can you get to not understand that it?s a trope. Even one of the mods laughed at the comment and closed the thread. 



> Rocks, boulders, whatever you want to call them, you're blatantly wanking Azula if you're saying she destroys them with her hands.



Acting like there aren?t other ways she can destroy them or just you know, dodge them and then proceed to one-shot one sister in 5 seconds flat then stomp the other. You don?t understand speed and reactions. Azula has shown better speed and reactions in many fights. You only have ONE fight to showcase Lin and Suyin?s piss poor performance where they threw a bunch of rocks then immediately went into hiding mode. Azula has shown much more impressive shit than both of them have, heck, even her feats of fighting dancing around Toph's and Aang's attacks without any bending is more impressive.



> Azula can slice the corners of rickety wooden buildings, not more impressive than P'li leaving craters in solid rock formations.
> 
> What feat taking out Aang from the air are you talking about, exactly?



Proof that they were ?rickety wooden buildings?? It wasn?t even the same building that Aang was inside him, he jumped to a different building. Azula?s destructive power > P?Li?s miserable shots. 



This is the feat I am talking about. The first 5 images where she sent a wave of fire against him and was able to reach him in time and take him out from the air. He was even running away in the opposite end and the fire wave reached him. And when it did, she was instantly on top of a building about to jump on him. Things like that are impressive feats where it shows the prowess and takes the opponent's levels into consideration.




> Opponents don't one-shot Azula because she generally isn't surrounded by 8 enemies including 2 elite ones, and when she is in such a situation she doesn't leave herself easily open with a charged shot like that.



She?s surrounded by enemies are much stronger than the 8 opponents in this thread. You seem to think that it?s a numbers game. It?s not. It?s quality > quantity. Fighting Aang, Zuko, Toph, Katara etc is much more impressive than fighting some fodderbenders and 2 non-elite sisters who at best are low-mid tier in the LOK verse. Azula doesn?t give time to her opponents to launch attacks, because she is that fast to hop on to the next attack. 



> He stomps her.  If Katara could catch her in waterbending arms, Unalaq would have an easy time of it.  He needs to avoid using the waterspout technique, but he doesn't need it against Azula.



Why are you even arguing about this? I didn?t even say Azula beats him, of course she doesn?t. But the fact that you had to go and use a Avatar possessed character as an example to beat Azula just speaks levels. It?s like me using Avatar Aang to beat someone to prove a worthless point.



> Lin knows earth sight as well, and being Toph's daughter I would bet the farm on Suyin knowing it too.



This is just stupid think. Just because they are Toph's daughters don't mean shit. How do you come to these conclusions? This logic doesn't work. This is like saying Zuko is Ozai's son so he should know lightning. You can't give other character's feats to characters who haven't shown them, you're just talking about fan fiction if you are. Giving Toph's feats and prowess to the sisters is dumb.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2014)

Wait

Wan's appealing to lack of clothing damage to downplay shit nowadays?


----------



## Qinglong (Oct 8, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Wait
> 
> Wan's appealing to lack of clothing damage to downplay shit nowadays?



Happened in the last ATLA thread


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 8, 2014)

I wonder if he will downplay the latest megazord Chidori vs Rasengan clash in the latest Naruto chapter cuz they still have their clothes on ck


----------



## Banhammer (Oct 8, 2014)

Zuko was kicking steel chains open with his heel. The royal firebenders are insane


----------



## Banhammer (Oct 8, 2014)

tari101190 said:


> Well...
> 
> Based on these two specific scenarios.
> 
> ...



Remember when Toph oneshot an entire room full of Dai Li, the elite earthbenders?


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 8, 2014)

Banhammer said:


> Zuko was kicking steel chains open with his heel. The royal firebenders are insane



But did Zuko's shoes have any dents? How strong was the metal? Was it old and rickety? ck


----------



## Wan (Oct 8, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Your point? The fact that you look for blood benders as examples of defeating Azula just goes to show you’re running out of ideas and grasping at straws.



"ATLA characters > LoK characters, as long as you leave out the LoK characters that actually stomp on ATLA characters! That's grasping at straws!"



> Naruto wasn’t on his last leg, wtf? He was in KN1 Kyuubi mode and launched a Rasengan. They were equal in terms of stamina. Just that Sasuke won the fight. You do know you got ridiculed for the clothing comment in that thread, right? How stupid can you get to not understand that it’s a trope. Even one of the mods laughed at the comment and closed the thread.



KN1 was taking a toll on his body.  But yeah, go ahead and fixate on my clothing comment and continue to ignore that there was no environmental damage or any damage to Naruto that couldn't have happened just from chidori.



> Acting like there aren’t other ways she can destroy them or just you know, dodge them and then proceed to one-shot one sister in 5 seconds flat then stomp the other. You don’t understand speed and reactions. Azula has shown better speed and reactions in many fights. You only have ONE fight to showcase Lin and Suyin’s piss poor performance where they threw a bunch of rocks then immediately went into hiding mode. Azula has shown much more impressive shit than both of them have, heck, even her feats of fighting dancing around Toph's and Aang's attacks without any bending is more impressive.



Destroy them, maybe, although she'd need firebending.  She can dodge them, sure.  And what do you mean "one" fight?  They have more fights on their record than just the fight on Laghima's Peak.



> Proof that they were “rickety wooden buildings?” It wasn’t even the same building that Aang was inside him, he jumped to a different building. Azula’s destructive power > P’Li’s miserable shots.





Thin walls, old construction. And yes, it is the same building that Aang fell into.



> This is the feat I am talking about. The first 5 images where she sent a wave of fire against him and was able to reach him in time and take him out from the air. He was even running away in the opposite end and the fire wave reached him. And when it did, she was instantly on top of a building about to jump on him. Things like that are impressive feats where it shows the prowess and takes the opponent's levels into consideration.



There's no explosive force to that attack; Aang fell from the air because he had to airbend to protect himself, and thus couldn't keep himself in the air.



> Why are you even arguing about this? I didn’t even say Azula beats him, of course she doesn’t. But the fact that you had to go and use a Avatar possessed character as an example to beat Azula just speaks levels. It’s like me using Avatar Aang to beat someone to prove a worthless point.



"ATLA characters > LoK characters, as long as you leave out the LoK characters that actually stomp on ATLA characters!  That's a worthless point!"



> This is just stupid think. Just because they are Toph's daughters don't mean shit. How do you come to these conclusions? This logic doesn't work. This is like saying Zuko is Ozai's son so he should know lightning. You can't give other character's feats to characters who haven't shown them, you're just talking about fan fiction if you are. Giving Toph's feats and prowess to the sisters is dumb.



Ozai did teach Azula, or allowed her to be taught, lightning.  Iroh tried teaching Zuko lightning, and when he ran into a problem that earth sense wouldn't have, he taught him lightning redirection.  We know that Lin has earth sense, and who do you think taught it to her?  In all likelihood, Suyin knows it too, or else she has the skill to keep up with Lin despite Lin knowing earth sense.  It's fine to discuss feats, but just going "Toph stomps Lin and Suyin because earth sense" isn't an argument.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Wait
> 
> Wan's appealing to lack of clothing damage to downplay shit nowadays?



No, I appealed to a lack of any visible damage at all, either to the characters or to the environment.



> Remember when Toph oneshot an entire room full of Dai Li, the elite earthbenders?



No, she didn't.  The Dai Li actually gave her trouble in "Lake Laogai", tagging her with a rock glove:



She later took out a bunch of fodder Earth Kingdom guards (not Dai Li):



Not all of them though, looks like 6.  They wouldn't have been taken out if there wasn't a ceiling to pin them to, it should be noted.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> No, I appealed to a lack of any visible damage at all, either to the characters or to the environment.



Still a stupid argument.

Took me all of 30 seconds to find the scans.

For a series I don't even read mind you.

How do you miss the wave of water it kicks up and the rock its demolishing at the edge of it's AOE ?

It's a pretty simple matter of finding the energy needed to dislodge the rocks/kick up the waves and compare the surface area of those to that of the sphere.

Looks kind of multi blockish to me.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> "ATLA characters > LoK characters, as long as you leave out the LoK characters that actually stomp on ATLA characters! That's grasping at straws!"



ATLA > LOK characters, that?s true but that doesn?t mean someone like Jet can take on Zaheer. You used blood benders and Avatar possessed characters to take someone who is a tier or 2 below them. Blood benders are the most haxxed and the most impractical characters there is. This is equivalent to me saying Avatar Aang can stomp Asami to prove that ATLA > LOK, but I don?t do that. You went so far to look for higher-ups so they could beat Azula, laughable really. To the point that you used Dark Avatar Unalaq to portray as someone who can beat Azula. *Is Azula really that top tier that she needs an Avatar to defeat her?* Damn Wan, even I don't hold Azula that strong ck



> KN1 was taking a toll on his body.  But yeah, go ahead and fixate on my clothing comment and continue to ignore that there was no environmental damage or any damage to Naruto that couldn't have happened just from chidori.



Before that clash Sasuke busted a normal Chidori in Naruto?s heart and Naruto still lived. The VOTE clash was on a much bigger scale, hence why Naruto got taken out. KN1 was the highest form he was in, it?s not supposed to be viewed as a downside or a downgrade from his base powers which you are trying to point out and certainly clothes don?t need to fucking be scathed to portray power. There are hundreds of other series out there where clothes don?t get scathed either and they can planet bust, does that mean it?s just all flash? You?re comments are down right pathetic.




> Destroy them, maybe, although she'd need firebending.  She can dodge them, sure.  And what do you mean "one" fight?  They have more fights on their record than just the fight on Laghima's Peak.



Fight against P?Li was their only fight which showed their peak skills. For their tiers and standards it was the only fight to showcase something noteworthy. Even then they had to go in hiding. That was a fight where they didn?t need to hold back whatsoever. Comparing their ?record? against Azula?s records is abysmal.



> Thin walls, old construction. And yes, it is the same building that Aang fell into.





The building has fucking layers. I?m not even gonna go in detail because you even use buildings to downplay feats but there are bloody walls inside the buildings. Like, look where Aang is falling and look at the inside. This ?old construction? is just fan fiction. As if you know when these buildings were made or what fucking plaster they used.



> There's no explosive force to that attack; Aang fell from the air because he had to airbend to protect himself, and thus couldn't keep himself in the air.





Because the attack is travelling through air, how can you evaluate the attack?s power when it didn?t hit anything? You expected it to distort space and time? Aang fell because the fire reached him and brought him down, lol what?  He didn?t fall on purpose. Azula?s fire blast reached him and made him fall down. The range itself is impressive considering where she was standing and where Aang was, who was trying to go the other way. 



> "ATLA characters > LoK characters, as long as you leave out the LoK characters that actually stomp on ATLA characters!  That's a worthless point!"



Again, this is the equivalent of someone saying Avatar Aang can beat Asami to prove a point that LOA > LOK. You don?t understand that you had to go all the way to find a Avatar character who is tiers above Azula in order to use that as an last ditch effort of an example to beat Azula? Lol, ck



> Ozai did teach Azula, or allowed her to be taught, lightning.  Iroh tried teaching Zuko lightning, and when he ran into a problem that earth sense wouldn't have, he taught him lightning redirection.  We know that Lin has earth sense, and who do you think taught it to her?  In all likelihood, Suyin knows it too, or else she has the skill to keep up with Lin despite Lin knowing earth sense.  It's fine to discuss feats, but just going "Toph stomps Lin and Suyin because earth sense" isn't an argument.



Why are you mentioning Azula? I mentioned Zuko. Just because Zuko is his son doesn?t mean he knows lightning, or are you going to tell me Zuko was hiding it all along for no apparent reason other than ?he is Ozai?s son so he must have Ozai?s feats?? Toph has a much better grasp of earth sensing than the 2 sisters plus she has shit load of other plethora of feats that make Lin and Suyin fodder. Like, seriously, go watch Toph?s videos right now. She does this shit on the fly. 

Kya is Katara's and Aang's daughter but she is a shit fighter. You can't give other character's feats to someone else.


----------



## Wan (Oct 8, 2014)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Still a stupid argument.
> 
> Took me all of 30 seconds to find the scans.
> 
> ...



Ok, I'll admit that I hadn't considered the water that gets kicked up.  Even so, "multi city blockish" seems like a gross overestimation to me.  But that's off topic with characters not even involved in the thread, so I'm not going to discuss it here.



Pocalypse said:


> You went so far to look for higher-ups so they could beat Azula, laughable really. To the point that you used Dark Avatar Unalaq to portray as someone who can beat Azula. *Is Azula really that top tier that she needs an Avatar to defeat her?* Damn Wan, even I don't hold Azula that strong.



No.  In case you can't read, I sorted the bloodbenders and Unalaq into the group that indisputably beats her, and had a whole list of other characters that are capable of beating Azula.



> Fight against P?Li was their only fight which showed their peak skills. For their tiers and standards it was the only fight to showcase something noteworthy. Even then they had to go in hiding. That was a fight where they didn?t need to hold back whatsoever. Comparing their ?record? against Azula?s records is abysmal.



So Lin's fights with the Equalists, Lin and Suyin's fights with each other and their first encounter with P'li and the Red Lotus didn't show their peak skills?  I'll keep that in mind whenever I cite their feats from that, then.



> The building has fucking layers. I?m not even gonna go in detail because you even use buildings to downplay feats but there are bloody walls inside the buildings. Like, look where Aang is falling and look at the inside. This ?old construction? is just fan fiction. As if you know when these buildings were made or what fucking plaster they used.



If there's walls inside the building, Azula didn't cut them.



> Because the attack is travelling through air, how can you evaluate the attack?s power when it didn?t hit anything? You expected it to distort space and time? Aang fell because the fire reached him and brought him down, lol what?  He didn?t fall on purpose. Azula?s fire blast reached him and made him fall down. The range itself is impressive considering where she was standing and where Aang was, who was trying to go the other way.



Aang didn't fall on purpose, he was forced to fall.  Azula's attack indirectly caused him to fall, but it was plain old gravity that actually brought him down.  The range was decent.



> Why are you mentioning Azula? I mentioned Zuko. Just because Zuko is his son doesn?t mean he knows lightning, or are you going to tell me Zuko was hiding it all along for no apparent reason other than ?he is Ozai?s son so he must have Ozai?s feats?? Toph has a much better grasp of earth sensing than the 2 sisters plus she has shit load of other plethora of feats that make Lin and Suyin fodder. Like, seriously, go watch Toph?s videos right now. She does this shit on the fly.



You mentioned Ozai.  The question is if Toph would teach Suyin metalbending, and you compared her to Ozai, who did in fact teach his daughter lightning (Think for a second, though.  You compared Toph as a parent to Ozai. _Ozai_.  I knew she had her problems as a parent but that's a bit harsh, don't you think?).



> Kya is Katara's and Aang's daughter but she is a shit fighter. You can't give other character's feats to someone else.



Kya's a fine waterbender and fighter.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 8, 2014)

Banhammer said:


> Zuko was kicking steel chains open with his heel. The royal firebenders are insane



In comparison LoK has been particularly weak when it comes to fire. Tiny little bursts that don't do more than knock people over.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> No.  In case you can't read, I sorted the bloodbenders and Unalaq into the group that indisputably beats her, and had a whole list of other characters that are capable of beating Azula.



This is obvious. I?ve even said blood benders and Avatar buffed characters can beat Azula. But you don?t seem to get that you went that far to look for characters off that level to beat Azula. Time and time again, this is like me saying Avatar Aang can beat someone from LOK to prove a point on that basis. It doesn?t compute. And the other characters you listed apart from Zaheer and Tenzin get shit on by Azula. Only Zaheer and Tenzin can challenge Azula. Tonraq sure as fucking hell ain?t gonna do jack shit to Azula. Tbh your words don?t mean anything because you just went and listed most of the benders who can beat Azula without giving any rational thoughts. The overhyping of LOK characters is astounding. 



> So Lin's fights with the Equalists, Lin and Suyin's fights with each other and their first encounter with P'li and the Red Lotus didn't show their peak skills?  I'll keep that in mind whenever I cite their feats from that, then.



Yes, their feats are abysmal compared to Azula?s. I?ve been saying this many times already backed up by evidence, that?s why Azula one-shots these 2 scrubs. They are not on their level from what we have seen from them. 



> Aang didn't fall on purpose, he was forced to fall.  Azula's attack indirectly caused him to fall, but it was plain old gravity that actually brought him down.  The range was decent.



>Aang is an airbender
>Gravity makes him fall down

Someone help me out here ck

The fire blast made him wall down. Are you blind? The fire blast on top of him. It travelled much faster than Aang?s friggin flight. It?s more than decent. How can her targeted attack indirectly make him wall down? Do you not see the way she used the attack? She purposely used it to bring him down from escaping. Are you seriously telling me Azula didn?t mean to attack Aang like that? 



> You mentioned Ozai.  The question is if Toph would teach Suyin metalbending, and you compared her to Ozai, who did in fact teach his daughter lightning (Think for a second, though.  You compared Toph as a parent to Ozai. _Ozai_.  I knew she had her problems as a parent but that's a bit harsh, don't you think?).



What the hell are you on about? I mentioned Ozai and Zuko. To prove a point that just because Zuko is ozai?s son doesn?t mean he would get the same feats from him. Which to further prove that just because Lin and Suyin are Toph?s daughters, doesn?t mean you should give a elite top tier fighter?s feats to two fodder scrubs. How you think I?m comparing Toph?s and Ozai?s parenting skills, I have no clue. 



> Kya's a fine waterbender and fighter.



LOL okay. Sure. In your fan fiction, yeah, she is a ?fine? waterbender. Lemme guess, Kya > Katara, right?


----------



## Wan (Oct 8, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> >Aang is an airbender
> >Gravity makes him fall down
> 
> Someone help me out here.
> ...



You're being obtuse.  Gravity makes an airbender fall down if they aren't airbending against it.  While he protected himself against Azula's blast, he couldn't keep himself in the air.  Thus, Azula brought him down, but not because of any explosive or concussive force in her firebending.



> What the hell are you on about? I mentioned Ozai and Zuko. To prove a point that just because Zuko is ozai’s son doesn’t mean he would get the same feats from him. Which to further prove that just because Lin and Suyin are Toph’s daughters, doesn’t mean you should give a elite top tier fighter’s feats to two fodder scrubs. How you think I’m comparing Toph’s and Ozai’s parenting skills, I have no clue.



I guess we'll just ignore how Ozai is a terrible father and had an abusive relationship with Zuko to the point of burning him and banishing him.  If you've paid close attention I haven't claimed a single time that Lin and Suyin should have the same _feats_ as Toph.



> LOL okay. Sure. In your fan fiction, yeah, she is a “fine” waterbender. Lemme guess, Kya > Katara, right?



No.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> You're being obtuse.  Gravity makes an airbender fall down if they aren't airbending against it.  While he protected himself against Azula's blast, he couldn't keep himself in the air.  Thus, Azula brought him down, but not because of any explosive or concussive force in her firebending.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LjhoGfDe_M[/YOUTUBE]

0.48 mark. She sends the fire blast at him, it reaches him and the blast makes him fall to the ground. The fire is literally curving to drop down, even the way Azula fired it shows it was meant to be used as a long range attack to take down opponents from mid air. It’s clear as day, even when he uses air bending, he fails which further points that her fire blast was stronger than Aang’s airbending of him trying to protect himself. There is no bullshit of  “gravity” made him fall, no. It was Azula’s fire blast. As if you are even downplaying something as clear cut as that. You really are retarded. 



> I guess we'll just ignore how Ozai is a terrible father and had an abusive relationship with Zuko to the point of burning him and banishing him.  If you've paid close attention I haven't claimed a single time that Lin and Suyin should have the same _feats_ as Toph.



Clearly missed my point. Not once did I mention anything about parenting skills, it’s you who’s trying to spin it another way because my point of Zuko made sense. You seem to think whatever Toph can do, the fodder sisters can do as well. Lol, no. Toph literally smashes them. 



> No.



Yes, Zaheer and Ming made her look like shit. She is a failbender.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 8, 2014)

> Yes, Zaheer and Ming made her look like shit. She is a failbender.


 Her performance was pretty good in both cases.


----------



## Wan (Oct 8, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> 0.48 mark. She sends the fire blast at him, it reaches him and the blast makes him fall to the ground. The fire is literally curving to drop down, even the way Azula fired it shows it was meant to be used as a long range attack to take down opponents from mid air. It?s clear as day, even when he uses air bending, he fails which further points that her fire blast was stronger than Aang?s airbending of him trying to protect himself. There is no bullshit of  ?gravity? made him fall, no. It was Azula?s fire blast. As if you are even downplaying something as clear cut as that. You really are retarded.



Here's a clearer version.

[youtube]S5MK4hx5Npw[/youtube]

Anyways, you're leaving out how the blast forces him to retract the wings from his glider -- the thing keeping him up -- so he can use his glider to protect himself from the firebending.  No glider wings means nothing was keeping him airborne, so gravity pulled him to the ground.



> You seem to think whatever Toph can do, the fodder sisters can do as well.



No, that's not my position.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> Here's a clearer version.
> 
> [youtube]S5MK4hx5Npw[/youtube]
> 
> Anyways, you're leaving out how the blast forces him to retract the wings from his glider -- the thing keeping him up -- so he can use his glider to protect himself from the firebending.  No glider wings means nothing was keeping him airborne, so gravity pulled him to the ground.



So let me get this straight:

Aang starts running away first by using his glider to fly away
He is already in mid air and gained distance
Azula rips a fire blast towards him
The fire blast is quicker than Aang’s flying speed since it started catch him up
Aang notices it and turns towards the blast to face it
The fire blasts CURVES downwards to make HIMSELF be brought down by the blast because he failed to airbend the blast away

Which gives you the impression that Aang was brought down because of gravity, so in your tinted glasses, Azula never was there, was she? You just imagined some unknown force brought him down. And I like how you bring out the tiniest bit of excuses like blaming it on the glider which he tried to use it to airbend the blast way.

Like, how can you even deny this feat? Mind boggling. Blaming it on gravity.


----------



## Wan (Oct 8, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> So let me get this straight:
> 
> Aang starts running away first by using his glider to fly away
> He is already in mid air and gained distance
> ...



Accurate.



> Aang notices it and turns towards the blast to face it



Retracting his glider wings and thus starting to fall.



> The fire blasts CURVES downwards to make HIMSELF be brought down by the blast because he failed to airbend the blast away



He actually doesn't fail to airbend the blast away, the fire never touches his body.



> Which gives you the impression that Aang was brought down because of gravity



The fact that he had his glider wings retracted and thus was not keeping himself up.  Without the glider wings, gravity pulls Aang down.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> Retracting his glider wings and thus starting to fall.



Point? Azula forced him to do that. She made a disadvantageous situation for him so her fire blast was successful. 



> He actually doesn't fail to airbend the blast away, the fire never touches his body.



He spins his glider trying to airbend the blast away, and fails due to the blast being much stronger than him.



> The fact that he had his glider wings retracted and thus was not keeping himself up.  Without the glider wings, gravity pulls Aang down.



The fact that the blast was able to put Aang in a shit position and the blast curving downwards implying the blast was going to carry on to hit Aang, forcing Aang to stop flying, retract his wings and spin them around to airbend the blast away, and fail...means Azula won in that scenario. The blast forced him to do all those things and brought him down, not gravity.


----------



## Wan (Oct 8, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Point? Azula forced him to do that. She made a disadvantageous situation for him so her fire blast was successful.



In that sense, yes, her fire blast was successful in bringing Aang down.



> He spins his glider trying to airbend the blast away, and fails due to the blast being much stronger than him.



In what way does he fail?  The fire doesn't touch him, or hurt him.  He successfully dissipates the part of the blast coming down on him with airbending, but in order to do that he had to let himself fall.  So Azula forced him to fall.  Aang fails to both defend against the firebending and stay in the air, but he succeeds at solely defending against the firebending.



> The fact that the blast was able to put Aang in a shit position and the blast curving downwards implying the blast was going to carry on to hit Aang, forcing Aang to stop flying, retract his wings and spin them around to airbend the blast away, and fail...means Azula won in that scenario. The blast forced him to do all those things and brought him down, not gravity.



Azula basically "won" that particular moment, yes.  Azula brought him down by forcing him to defend against her firebending, thus causing him to fall.


----------



## Rivers (Oct 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> Here's a clearer version.
> 
> [youtube]S5MK4hx5Npw[/youtube]



If we're supposed to break this scene down for feats, it shows Azula's Fireblast has:

- Long range

- Good speed (Aang was still in the process of gaining lift, and was by no means at top speed glider flight of course.)

- And decent linear volume (It would have been better for Aang to have done a sharp turn and or dive since again, the Fireblast's AOE is only linear. Chalk that up to fatigue.)

- Normal power (Aang did Airbend away the portion that would have hit him.)

If we're talking about her firebending overpowering Aang's Airbending, well it did corner him yes. But Azula was on the offense and Aang was evading, so no. That's not really a gauge of power vs power at all. 

How does this translate to Azula's battle vs Metalbenders? Would that get through their Earthbended walls?


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> Azula basically "won" that particular moment, yes.  Azula brought him down by forcing him to defend against her firebending, thus causing him to fall.



So like, what the hell were you ranting on for? ck


----------



## Wan (Oct 8, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> So like, what the hell were you ranting on for?



That's a good question.  What are _you_ ranting on for?


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> That's a good question.  What are _you_ ranting on for?



You were the one arguing about the feat, I just pointed it out.


----------



## Wan (Oct 8, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> You were the one arguing about the feat, I just pointed it out.



Seemed like you were just arguing with whatever I said.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> Seemed like you were just arguing with whatever I said.



You were the one who quoted me in this thread the first time. So I replied.
You were the one who asked me about Azula's long range fire blast feat. So I replied.


----------



## Wan (Oct 8, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> You were the one who quoted me in this thread the first time. So I replied.
> You were the one who asked me about Azula's long range fire blast feat. So I replied.



And you took issue with my assessment of the feat.  In any case, we are basically in agreement on what happened with the feat?  Aang takes off, Azula shoots her fire which catches up to him, Aang uses his glider to attempt to dissipate the attack but falls as a result?


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> And you took issue with my assessment of the feat.  In any case, we are basically in agreement on what happened with the feat?  Aang takes off, Azula shoots her fire which catches up to him, Aang uses his glider to attempt to dissipate the attack but falls as a result?



Yes, what I was saying all along.


----------



## Wan (Oct 8, 2014)

I'll remember that.


----------



## Pocalypse (Oct 8, 2014)

I feel like I've been caught somewhere but my spider-sense isn't tingling for some reason ck


----------



## Rivers (Oct 8, 2014)

Reznor said:


> Her performance was pretty good in both cases.



True, nevermind the fact she wouldnt be as strong as when she was the age of either Zaheer or Ming.


----------



## Reznor (Oct 8, 2014)

> True, nevermind the fact she wouldnt be as strong as when she was the age of either Zaheer or Ming.


 What are you getting at?

Also, not sure how old they are.


----------



## Rivers (Oct 8, 2014)

Reznor said:


> What are you getting at?
> 
> Also, not sure how old they are.



What do you mean? 

Kya was not the strongest she could have been when she fought the Red Lotus because of her older age.

They are definitely younger than Kya.


----------



## Solar (Oct 8, 2014)

How do these Avatar threads get so many posts? What is the secret?


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 8, 2014)

Bernkastel said:


> How do these Avatar threads get so many posts? What is the secret?



Wan and a few others thinking they know best


----------



## Wan (Oct 8, 2014)

Rivers said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> Kya was not the strongest she could have been when she fought the Red Lotus because of her older age.
> 
> They are definitely younger than Kya.



Age doesn't seem like too much of a hindrance for Avatar characters -- just check out the old school OWL.  Past that, this isn't really a defense of Kya.  It's basically saying "Yeah she kind of sucks now, but she might have been better when she was younger".



MusubiKazesaru said:


> Wan and a few others thinking they know best



Hey, if I'm given something to reply to, chances are that I'll reply.


----------



## Rivers (Oct 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> Age doesn't seem like too much of a hindrance for Avatar characters -- just check out the old school OWL.  Past that, this isn't really a defense of Kya.  It's basically saying "Yeah she kind of sucks now, but she might have been better when she was younger".



Did I ever say she "sucked" in any way with what she has shown? I actually agreed she performed well. 

And yeah personally, I have no problem believing her younger self was better than she is now. Id also say the likes of prime "Dragon of the West" General Iroh, would have overall better stats than even buffed OWL Iroh. I dont really think that's stretching at all. But that's just me.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 8, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Did I ever say she "sucked" in any way with what she has shown? I actually agreed she performed well.
> 
> And yeah personally, I have no problem believing her younger self was better than she is now. Id also say the likes of prime "Dragon of the West" General Iroh, would have overall better stats than even buffed OWL Iroh. I dont really think that's stretching at all. But that's just me.



With Sozin's comet he easily busted through the walls, which he couldn't do when he was closer to his prime if Sozin's Comet is what you meant by "buffed" or did you just mean him getting in shape?


----------



## Rivers (Oct 8, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> With Sozin's comet he easily busted through the walls, which he couldn't do when he was closer to his prime if Sozin's Comet is what you meant by "buffed" or did you just mean him getting in shape?



Im talking about in shape buff Iroh without Comet boost of course.

Though, Ba Sing Se's outer wall was actually breached when General Iroh was in charge of that invading battle front. Something that had not happened in the 100 years prior. Not saying he did it personally, but it's decent hype for the achievements his younger self was capable of.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 8, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Im talking about in shape buff Iroh without Comet boost of course.
> 
> Though, Ba Sing Se's outer wall was actually breached when General Iroh was in charge of that invading battle front. Something that had not happened in the 100 years prior. Not saying he did it personally, but it's decent hype for the achievements his younger self was capable of.



Well yeah I'm pretty sure that's how in shape he was when he was an active fighter and general, just being older isn't going to make him better. The only reason I could think of him being better later on in life at all is if he developed the lightning redirection afterward.


----------



## Rivers (Oct 8, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Well yeah I'm pretty sure that's how in shape he was when he was an active fighter and general, just being older isn't going to make him better. The only reason I could think of him being better later on in life at all is if he developed the lightning redirection afterward.



That only supports my point. Older Iroh would have to train extensively (as we are shown) to say no, maybe he hasn't degraded in battle prowess to his younger self (I still say he's not quite there yet). 

But has Kya been explicitly stated to be keeping herself in tip-top shape in her older years, or has it been implied she's still in retirement / travelling mode prior to fighting the Red Lotus? But I'll end it here, since its getting tangential again.


----------

