# UI Goku vs Gogeta Blue or Broly(Super)



## dbz987 (Jan 23, 2019)

Havent seen this thread being made yet.  So...


Scenario1: UI Goku vs Gogeta Blue
Scenario2: UI Goku  vs Broly


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## Claudio Swiss (Jan 23, 2019)

THeres a dbz battledome and it’s been done and consensus is broly or gogeta caves goku skull in


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 23, 2019)

Gogeta goes straight to work

WORK


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## Adamant soul (Jan 23, 2019)

Gogeta and Broly wreck his shit.

Fusions > Any individual form of their components and I've heard Broly does take a decent amount of abuse from Gogeta Blue without dying so not sure what UI Goku does against either of them.


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## Mabel Gleeful (Jan 23, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> Gogeta and Broly wreck his shit.
> 
> Fusions > Any individual form of their components and I've heard Broly does take a decent amount of abuse from Gogeta Blue without dying so not sure what UI Goku does against either of them.


Broly actually managed to power up one last time after receiving a Stardust Breaker from SSB Gogeta:


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## Adamant soul (Jan 23, 2019)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> Broly actually managed to power up one last time after receiving a Stardust Breaker from SSB Gogeta:



Yeah, Broly definitely makes UI Goku his bitch then.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 23, 2019)




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## NightmareCinema (Jan 23, 2019)

Gogeta was using Hyper Blue Kaioken on Broly. Notice the red flashes on his aura near the end of the fight (only Goku's aura had the flashes of red earlier in the movie) and the fact that Vegeta's aura earlier during the movie looked like his Hyper Blue's aura. Gogeta's gonna style on UI Goku here.


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## Ayy lmao (Jan 23, 2019)

wrong section


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Jan 23, 2019)

Gogeta should win because it's a fusion, there's no way to know with Broly.


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## Voyeur (Jan 23, 2019)

Goku gets flexed on.  In before the lock.


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## Jag77 (Jan 23, 2019)

If two Saiyan chicks can go from barely contending with exhausted SSJ2 Goku to being comparable to Omen Goku with a single fusion. 

Then regular Super Saiyan Gogeta flexes on MUI Goku.


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

MUI Goku gets stomped on by Gogeta or Broly.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 24, 2019)

Gogeta doesnt need Blue to bitch slap both at the same time 

Red would be enough


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Gogeta doesnt need Blue to bitch slap both at the same time
> 
> Red would be enough



Doubt it.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> Doubt it.


Gogeta Blue was straight styling on Broly with no effort and smiling the whole time

MUI doesnt even offer much help when Gogeta is >>>> him already

Reactions: Like 1


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Gogeta Blue was straight styling on Broly with no effort and smiling the whole time
> 
> MUI doesnt even offer much help when Gogeta is >>>> him already



The difference in power between SSG and SSB is pretty large, as shown by Broly beating down the SSG forms, and being somewhat challenged by the SSBs until he kept getting stronger. Broly then proceeded to take a massive beating from SSB Gogeta, in which he received another power-up, and was going to be put down by a SSB Gogeta Kamahamaha.

Flip the tables around a bit and let it be SSG Gogeta vs. Broly instead; you'd have a situation that would give Broly much more time to get stronger until he matched their SSG form. There is a reason why Gogeta jumped from ssj to SSB, skipping SSG in the process, and it wasn't for shits and giggles.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> The difference in power between SSG and SSB is pretty large, as shown by Broly beating down the SSG forms, and being somewhat challenged by the SSBs until he kept getting stronger. Broly then proceeded to take a massive beating from SSB Gogeta, in which he received another power-up, and was going to be put down by a SSB Gogeta Kamahamaha.
> 
> Flip the tables around a bit and let it be SSG Gogeta vs. Broly instead; you'd have a situation that would give Broly much more time to get stronger until he matched their SSG form. There is a reason why Gogeta jumped from ssj to SSB, skipping SSG in the process, and it wasn't for shits and giggles.


SSJ Gogeta was beating down SSJ Broly till he went LSSJ and SSJ to SSG is a bigger jump than SSJ to LSSJ. We saw this during the ToP

SSJ2 Goku could still keep up with LSSJ Kale and SSG Goku straight up waltzed through he energy beam. Goku was literally playing with her and Caulifla.


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> SSJ Gogeta was beating down SSJ Broly till he went LSSJ and SSJ to SSG is a bigger jump than SSJ to LSSJ. We saw this during the ToP
> 
> SSJ2 Goku could still keep up with LSSJ Kale and SSG Goku straight up waltzed through he energy beam. Goku was literally playing with her and Caulifla.



Kale and Caulifla can't be compared to Broly in any way other than one is a Broly knock-off. We seen Goku school them with his weaker forms while he was already worn down from previous fights, and proceeded to beat the two after they fused together. Broly gave Goku and Vegeta the Kale and Caulifla treatment by beating them to the point of requiring a fusion. 

The jump from ssj to SSG might very well be larger than ssj to LSSJ; however, it doesn't account for Broly's mid-battle growth rate, which is the problem. If SSB Gogeta could use starduster, a shit ton of powerful key attacks, and had killing intent (as shown by Broly needing to be saved), then SSG would start off stronger, but will lack the fire-power needed to put Broly down in the proper amount of time needed.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> Kale and Caulifla can't be compared to Broly in any way other than one is a Broly knock-off. We seen Goku school them with his weaker forms while he was already worn down from previous fights, and proceeded to beat the two after they fused together. Broly gave Goku and Vegeta the Kale and Caulifla treatment by beating them to the point of requiring a fusion.
> 
> The jump from ssj to SSG might very well be larger than ssj to LSSJ; however, it doesn't account for Broly's mid-battle growth rate, which is the problem. If SSB Gogeta could use starduster, a shit ton of powerful key attacks, and had killing intent (as shown by Broly needing to be saved), then SSG would start off stronger, but will lack the fire-power needed to put Broly down in the proper amount of time needed.


Goku outright says he doesnt want to kill Broly, only Vegeta seemed to be trying to and Gogeta was smiling while attacking him most of the time


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Goku outright says he doesnt want to kill Broly, only Vegeta seemed to be trying to and Gogeta was smiling while attacking him most of the time



Gogeta is half Goku and half Vegeta + a whole lot of cocky ass-hole (which we love). The killing intent was clear for all to see, even Whis knew things were coming to an end before the Dragon saved Broly's life. Smiling doesn't = a lack of killing intent. Vegeta always smiled when killing people, and Goku smiles whenever he is facing a strong opponent as well.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> Gogeta is half Goku and half Vegeta + a whole lot of cocky ass-hole (which we love). The killing intent was clear for all to see, even Whis knew things were coming to an end before the Dragon saved Broly's life. Smiling doesn't = a lack of killing intent. Vegeta always smiled when killing people, and Goku smiles whenever he is facing a strong opponent as well.


Im saying he wasnt trying to kill him until he used that Kamehameha at the end.

SSJ Gogeta > SSJ Broly powered up > Base Gogeta >= SSJ Broly initially > Ikari Broly >= Blue Goku and Vegeta.

Unless LSSJ is an insanely powerful transformation it wont put him near SSG enough to not get killed.


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Im saying he wasnt trying to kill him until he used that Kamehameha at the end.
> 
> SSJ Gogeta > SSJ Broly powered up > Base Gogeta >= SSJ Broly initially > Ikari Broly >= Blue Goku and Vegeta.
> 
> Unless LSSJ is an insanely powerful transformation it wont put him near SSG enough to not get killed.



False. 

1 -  Base Gogeta did nothing to SSJ Broly outside of flying away and smacking a few ki blasts. He then immediately turned SSJ, so we can't say he is > SSJ Broly at all.

2 -  SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Broly were fairly even. 

3 -  LSSJ is clearly an insanely powerful transformation since it took SSB Gogeta so much effort to put down. If Broly can tank 2 extremely powerful ki attacks from SSB Gogeta, what does SSG have to offer that will put Broly down, yet alone before Broly's growth overpowers him? 

Also, what makes you think Gogeta wasn't trying to kill him until the end? I don't recall him ever trying to calm Broly down, or make any mention of not wanting to kill him. Only SSG Goku did that once, and never brought it up again.


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> False.
> 
> 1 -  Base Gogeta did nothing to SSJ Broly outside of flying away and smacking a few ki blasts. He then immediately turned SSJ, so we can't say he is > SSJ Broly at all.



Broly wasn't able to tag or touch Base Gogeta once before further powering up who was even shown laughing and smirking through the whole ordeal. False.



> 2 -  SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Broly were fairly even.



They were not. When Gogeta transformed into a Super Saiyan, Broly was definitively put on the defensive until he again powered up to his Full Power Super Saiyan form and managed to get one or two hits on Super Saiyan Gogeta, though he didn't even manage to even knock back or rattle Gogeta, only pissing him off to turn Super Saiyan Blue.

So again, false.



> 3 -  LSSJ is clearly an insanely powerful transformation since it took SSB Gogeta so much effort to put down. If Broly can tank 2 extremely powerful ki attacks from SSB Gogeta, what does SSG have to offer that will put Broly down, yet alone before Broly's growth overpowers him?



Exaggeration at minimum. Full Power Super Saiyan Broly was being completely dominated by Super Saiyan Blue Gogeta their entire fight. This only shows that Broly's endurance and durability is great but there is zero correlating that with the fact Broly was put on his ass and saved only thanks to the last minute wish with Shenron. I would hardly say Gogeta casually trashing FPSS Broly was "much effort".



> Also, what makes you think Gogeta wasn't trying to kill him until the end? I don't recall him ever trying to calm Broly down, or make any mention of not wanting to kill him. Only SSG Goku did that once, and never brought it up again.



Gogeta was toying with Broly once he turned Super Saiyan Blue after Broly accessed his Full Power Super Saiyan form. His personality is more or less 1:1 now with Vegito so he probably had a sadistic streak about him from Vegeta's half of the fusion in his personality to prolong the fight to enjoy it. There is no question the Kamehame Ha would've obliterated Broly had it connected.

Reactions: Like 4


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 24, 2019)

SSJ Gogeta and broly were certainly not even when Gogeta was kicking his ass into next week easily


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> Broly wasn't able to tag or touch Base Gogeta once before further powering up who was even shown laughing and smirking through the whole ordeal. False.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Gogeta was flying away, that doesn't show that he is stronger. It just shows he knows how to run away. Besides we all know Broly doesn't have the best aim.

2. Lol, what? Watch the fight again. Broly landed the first hit against SSJ Gogeta, then got hit, then they were pushing each other back, then they exchanged blows before Gogeta knocked him away and powered up a ki blast strike. They then went back to exchanging blows before Broly knocked Gogeta back again. From there, they clashed ki blasts, which caused the dimension feat... *that was all BEFORE LSSJ Broly.
*
3. You basically agreed with me saying Broly could take a beating from SSB Gogeta, so mind telling me what SSG Gogeta is going to do?


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> SSJ Gogeta and broly were certainly not even when Gogeta was kicking his ass into next week easily



Looks like you should watch the fight over again as well.


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## Lurko (Jan 24, 2019)

Base Gogeta or Ssj Gogeta would get it done.


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> 1. Gogeta was flying away, that doesn't show that he is stronger. It just shows he knows how to run away. Besides we all know Broly doesn't have the best aim.
> 
> 2. Lol, what? Watch the fight again. Broly landed the first hit against SSJ Gogeta, then got hit, then they were pushing each other back, then they exchanged blows before Gogeta knocked him away and powered up a ki blast strike. They then went back to exchanging blows before Broly knocked Gogeta back again. From there, they clashed ki blasts, which caused the dimension feat... *that was all BEFORE LSSJ Broly.
> *
> 3. You basically agreed with me saying Broly could take a beating from SSB Gogeta, so mind telling me what SSG Gogeta is going to do?



I'm not arguing anything about SSG Gogeta, only that you are completely lying about the fight itself when SS Broly couldn't even tag Base Gogeta and was being beaten up by SS Gogeta and curbstomped by SSB Gogeta who most of the time didn't even have a Ki aura around him when he was whaling on Full Power Super Saiyan Broly, indicating he wasn't using his full strength just like SSB Vegito did with Merged Zamasu.

Looks like YOU didn't watch the fight properly.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2019)

Base Gogeta was playing with SSJ Broly

You could tell he was having fun while styling on Broly

Hell look at his face when after he went SSJ


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> I'm not arguing anything about SSG Gogeta, only that you are completely lying about the fight itself when SS Broly couldn't even tag Base Gogeta and was being beaten up by SS Gogeta and curbstomped by SSB Gogeta who most of the time didn't even have a Ki aura around him when he was whaling on Full Power Super Saiyan Broly, indicating he wasn't using his full strength just like SSB Vegito did with Merged Zamasu.
> 
> Looks like YOU didn't watch the fight properly.



1. Gogeta took flight before Broly, giving him a head start. 

2. Your base Gogeta comment is pointless since that same Broly was able to tag SSJ Gogeta

3. Nobody here is arguing that Broly is on SSB Gogeta's level. We are arguing SSG.


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> 1. Gogeta took flight before Broly, giving him a head start.



Why wasn't Broly able to tag him despite being in his Super Saiyan form?



> 2. Your base Gogeta comment is pointless since that same Broly was able to tag SSJ Gogeta



False. Broly hit Gogeta like one time after powering up to his Full Power Super Saiyan form which did all of nothing, so your comment here is pointless.



> 3. Nobody here is arguing that Broly is on SSB Gogeta's level. We are arguing SSG.



Then why did you strawman and make an assumption I was arguing about SSG Gogeta?


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2019)

Broly was literally getting stronger as the fight went on yet SSB was too much of a power gap for Broly to overcome in such a short amount of time

Two herald level characters fusing usually ends in some incredible shit

Broly even attempting to hang with Gogeta shows how powerful he is 

To me anyway

Reactions: Like 1


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> Why wasn't Broly able to tag him despite being in his Super Saiyan form?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why was base Goku able to hang with Broly for a second when SSG Vegeta was getting beat up by Broly, despite Goku and Vegeta being basically even in all shared forms?

I literally posted the video to the fight, which shows your "Broly hit Gogeta 1 time" comment wrong. SSJ Broly and SSJ Gogeta were fairly even. 

I assumed you were talking about SSG Gogeta because, you know...that was the topic


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2019)

And if you need some closure

The novel fills in where the anime did not

So it's not like there's anything to miss here


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

Darth Nihilus said:


> *Broly was literally getting stronger as the fight went on yet SSB was too much of a power gap for Broly to overcome in such a short amount of time*
> 
> Two herald level characters fusing usually ends in some incredible shit
> 
> ...



Exactly. All I'm saying is that I doubt SSG would have provided that same gap long enough to secure the win.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2019)

So SSJ directly fighting Broly after powering up is him getting beat up by Broly

Ok home slice


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> Why was base Goku able to hang with Broly for a second when SSG Vegeta was getting beat up by Broly, despite Goku and Vegeta being basically even in all shared forms?



Not seeing the relation to the tangent with Base Gogeta. And its been established that the base form of Fusions are always stronger than the strongest form of their components; like Base Vegito being > Super Saiyan 3 according to the last daizenshuu for the original story. Same again with Base Kefla and now with Base Gogeta.

Your argument is lacking.



> I literally posted the video to the fight, which shows your "Broly hit Gogeta 1 time" comment wrong. SSJ Broly and SSJ Gogeta were fairly even.



They weren't. Broly is covered in bruises even while fighting just Super Saiyan Gogeta, while Gogeta has not a single mark on his body; no scoff, no scratches, not even reddened flesh. They were in no capacity, "even", at all. Super Saiyan Broly was being put on his ass by Super Saiyan Gogeta until he powered up, that punch only doing enough to cause Gogeta to get annoyed and transform into Super Saiyan Blue and the beat down became worse.


> I assumed you were talking about SSG Gogeta because, you know...that was the topic



A misguided belief when I interjected when you were tell half-truths of how the fight between Gogeta and Broly happened and never once mentioned anything about SSG.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> Exactly. All I'm saying is that I doubt SSG would have provided that same gap long enough to secure the win.



SSJ was hanging with him

SSG would have just been another gap for him to overcome had he did go to SSG

He did block one punch from SSB Gogeta

So it goes to show how fast he can gain a boost out of nowhere


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> Not seeing the relation to the tangent with Base Gogeta. And its been established that the base form of Fusions are always stronger than the strongest form of their components; like Base Vegito being > Super Saiyan 3 according to the last daizenshuu for the original story. Same again with Base Kefla and now with Base Gogeta.
> 
> Your argument is lacking.
> 
> ...



The relation is that inferior forms have shown to do things that get immediately retconned consistently in DB. See:
1- Base Goku vs. Broly
2 - Base Frieza vs. Broly
3 - Broly then going on to fight their stronger forms with more success.

No, Broly wasn't covered in bruises. What fanfiction are you talking about? If you think SSJ Gogeta was just beating Broly down, then you simply don't know what you're talking about. The video has been posted, there really is no reason for you to continue saying such nonsense. 

Not a single half-truth spoken. Watch the fight again and stop this madness.


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> The relation is that inferior forms have shown to do things that get immediately retconned consistently in DB. See:
> 1- Base Goku vs. Broly


2 - Base Frieza vs. Broly
3 - Broly then going on to fight their stronger forms with more success.[/quote]

None of these have any correlation with Base Gogeta who is at minimum >>> SSB Goku or Vegeta so I don't know why you keep bringing these ups.



> No, Broly wasn't covered in bruises. What fanfiction are you talking about?



The same one where you are claiming they were even.



> If you think SSJ Gogeta was just beating Broly down, then you simply don't know what you're talking about. The video has been posted, there really is no reason for you to continue saying such nonsense.



The fight already showed SS Broly couldn't touch Base Gogeta who was casually dodging and parrying his Ki blasts. Once he was in Super Saiyan, Broly was being pushed around. You are the one who hasn't seem to have watched the fight properly. The only time Broly does anything is when he powers up further into his Full Power Super Saiyan form. Broly gets struck like three times within seconds after Gogeta transforms into a Super Saiyan and the fight slides more and more into Gogeta dominating as a SS until he powers up, your video backs what I'm saying.



> Not a single half-truth spoken. Watch the fight again and stop this madness.



I have. And I've seen it repeatedly in theaters. And I'm not the one being disingenuous here, you are.

"They were even."

Laughable, dude.


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## Kaaant (Jan 24, 2019)

Why can’t gogeta use ui


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## Keollyn (Jan 24, 2019)

God damn, that damage soak was unreal.

Not sure many would have survived that initial onslaught by blueberry Gogurt, let alone when he dumped soul punished in the mix


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2019)

Oh God

You made @Keollyn appear

The thread landscape just changed


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> 2 - Base Frieza vs. Broly
> 3 - Broly then going on to fight their stronger forms with more success.
> 
> None of these have any correlation with Base Gogeta who is at minimum >>> SSB Goku or Vegeta so I don't know why you keep bringing these ups.
> ...



You were talking about how Broly didn't tag base Gogeta. I gave examples of how we've seen weaker forms do things that don't make sense, given how their stronger forms perform. Get it now?

You keep bringing up Base Gogeta when SSJ Broly nailed SSJ Gogeta and was exchanging blows with him, which *PUSHED BOTH OF THEM BACK*. The difference between SSJ Gogeta and Broly wasn't power, it was skill and experience, which was something touched up on from the start. Hell, when SSJ Gogeta did get an upper hand, it was due to technique. Power wasn't the issue.

Ahhhh, my fault. I didn't know it was a glasses issue that had you confused.


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## Keollyn (Jan 24, 2019)

Darth Nihilus said:


> Oh God
> 
> You made @Keollyn appear
> 
> The thread landscape just changed



Haven't seen the movie yet, so I was curious.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2019)

Keollyn said:


> Haven't seen the movie yet, so I was curious.



When I went to see the movie the entire audience clapped as a show of appreciation

I know cause I had half a blunt in my pocket

I wanted to spark that bitch so bad

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> You were talking about how Broly didn't tag base Gogeta. I gave examples of how we've seen weaker forms do things that don't make sense, given how their stronger forms perform. Get it now?



Your examples are irrelevant because base Gogeta is stronger than any of those fighters strongest forms as has been the consistent theme in the original series, GT, and Super itself.



> You keep bringing up Base Gogeta when SSJ Broly nailed SSJ Gogeta and was exchanging blows with him, which *PUSHED BOTH OF THEM BACK*.



Again, you are being disingenuous. Base Gogeta was staying ahead of Super Saiyan Broly, who fired and spammed Ki blasts at him, which were faster then Super Saiyan Broly's own speed, yet even when they caught up to Gogeta, he was parrying and deflecting them with just his hands and smirking while doing so.

After Gogeta turned Super Saiyan, they exchanged blows maybe twice knocking each other back, then Gogeta started hammering Broly. His second or third casual  punch hits Broly in the face so hard that Broly is stunned and acts as if he got a concussion and shakes himself to regain his focus. That's how hard SS Gogeta was casually hitting Broly.

They were not even.



> The difference between SSJ Gogeta and Broly wasn't power,



The power difference was very clearly shown in the film. 



> it was skill and experience,



False again. Broly was outclassed in strength and skill as well as experience, stop spinning a false narrative.



> which was something touched up on from the start. Hell, when SSJ Gogeta did get an upper hand, it was due to technique. Power wasn't the issue.



Again, wrong and false. A casual punch from Super Saiyan Gogeta had Broly stunned and stopped for a moment before he had to shake himself back into clarity.  What you are selling, no one is buying here.



> [Ahhhh, my fault. I didn't know it was a glasses issue that had you confused.



Is this an attempt at a personal attack? Because its a bad one.


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> -snip-



Do you know the difference between arguing power and skill? 

If not, we're going to go in circles. 

In terms of power, SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Broly were fairly equal. Skill was the issue. 

Skill is what you use to dodge attacks.
Skill is what you use to land attacks.
Skill is what you use to counter attacks. 
Having more skill allows you to perform better than someone, even if they match your strength. 

If you can understand that, we can continue.


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> Do you know the difference between arguing power and skill?
> 
> If not, we're going to go in circles.
> 
> ...



Do you know that your argument has been torn to pieces and that in power Broly was nowhere CLOSE to equal to Gogeta in power even when both were Super Saiyans? Cool. Now you learned something. And here's the part that keeps going over your head:

- an enraged Super Saiyan Broly was firing Ki blasts at BASE Gogeta
- those Ki blasts were CASUALLY deflected and parried by a BASE Gogeta who didn't even have a Ki aura around himself when he stopped indicating he wasn't using his full power even then
- three punches from Gogeta were damaging Broly and stunning him while he couldn't hurt Gogeta at all

They were not equal. Now I go do this dance all night.


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> Do you know that your argument has been torn to pieces and that in power Broly was nowhere CLOSE to equal to Gogeta in power evne when both were Super Saiyans? Cool. Now you learned something. And here's the part that keeps going over your head:
> 
> - an enraged Super Saiyan Broly was firing Ki blasts at BASE Gogeta
> - those Ki blasts were CASUALLY deflected and parried by a BASE Gogeta who didn't even have a Ki aura around himself when he stopped indicating he wasn't using his full power even then
> ...



You ignoring feats don't = my argument getting torn to pieces. Sorry, that's not how things work. 

You're completely ignoring the skill aspect I see, even when it was mentioned to be an issue from the start. Nice. 

I guess you think Tien is stronger than Buu because he once shot away Super Buu's ki blast, right?


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> You ignoring feats don't



How am I ignoring feats? You are literally disregarding one punch from Gogeta stunning Broly so bad he had to take a moment to clear his head and recover. And now you are comparing Base Gogeta to Tien. I'm not going to bother replying to you now because contrary to what I said, someone else can take up my place on this.


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## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> How am I ignoring feats? You are literally disregarding one punch from Gogeta stunning Broly so bad he had to take a moment to clear his head and recover. And now you are comparing Base Gogeta to Tien. I'm not going to bother replying to you now because contrary to what I said, someone else can take up my place on this.



I don't recall ignoring Gogeta landing the punch or its effectiveness. I simply pointed out that the punch was landed due to skill, something you pretend doesn't exist or makes a difference.

I'm not comparing Gogeta to Tien, I'm pointing out how foolish your argument of: smacking a generic ki blast away = you're stronger, is.


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> I don't recall ignoring Gogeta landing the punch or its effectiveness. I simply pointed out that the punch was landed due to skill, something you pretend doesn't exist or makes a difference.



I never said anything about skill not existing, I said Broly was outclassed in power as much as he was in skill or experience (a haymaker to the face isn't going to hit HARDER because the person is more skilled, its not a tangible factor at all), stop trying to put words in my mouth.



> I'm not comparing Gogeta to Tien, I'm pointing out how foolish your argument of: smacking a generic ki blast away = you're stronger, is.



You compared Tien using a named technique, Kikoho, from out the blue to deflect a Ki blast from Buutenks, with an enraged Super Saiyan Broly who was having ihs attacks disabled by base Gogeta's bare hands who didn't even have to power up to do so. Seems fairly nonsensical. So yeah I'm done with you here.


----------



## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> I never said anything about skill not existing, I said Broly was outclassed in power as much as he was in skill or experience (a haymaker to the face isn't going to hit HARDER because the person is more skilled, its not a tangible factor at all), stop trying to put words in my mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> You compared Tien using a named technique, Kikoho, from out the blue to deflect a Ki blast from Buutenks, with an enraged Super Saiyan Broly who was having is attacks disabled by Gogeta's bare hands. Seems fairly nonsensical. So yeah I'm done with you here.



Yet, he wasn't over-powered. 
- When they clashed, they both went back an equal distance, multiple times.
- When their ki collided, neither over-powered the other

So what head on power clash happened that ended up with Broly being over-powered? 

If you go back to "Gogeta was hitting him more", you're once again talking about skill, not power. 

I'm sorry about the Tien thing. I guess I should have pointed out that 17 was stronger than Jiren instead since it was so hard for Jiren to land a hit, right? 

In the end, we can go through a lot of situations where a weaker character hurt, blocked, or dodged a stronger character in DB.  You using it as a crutch for your stance is simply pointless because we see, seconds later how things turn out with a stronger form of Gogeta.


----------



## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> *snip for ad naseum reptition





Fang said:


> I never said anything about skill not existing, I said Broly was outclassed in power as much as he was in skill or experience (a haymaker to the face isn't going to hit HARDER because the person is more skilled, its not a tangible factor at all), stop trying to put words in my mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> You compared Tien using a named technique, Kikoho, from out the blue to deflect a Ki blast from Buutenks, with an enraged Super Saiyan Broly who was having ihs attacks disabled by base Gogeta's bare hands who didn't even have to power up to do so. Seems fairly nonsensical. So yeah I'm done with you here.



I already addressed all this. Stop replying or quoting my posts now, I said I'm done with you, lad. Take your loss.


----------



## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> I already addressed all this. Stop replying or quoting my posts now, I said I'm done with you, lad. Take your loss.



You can't run screaming "I win" and think it actually counts as a win, lol. 

I'll make it easy for you though. Post head on power clashes where SSJ Gogeta over-powered SSJ Broly and I'll accept an L if I can't counter you with twice as many times that they clashed and came out equal.

If you can't do that, then you take your L.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> You can't run screaming "I win" and think it actually counts as a win, lol.
> 
> I'll make it easy for you though. Post head on power clashes where SSJ Gogeta over-powered SSJ Broly and I'll accept an L if I can't counter you with twice as many times that they clashed and came out equal.
> 
> If you can't do that, then you take your L.


Who cares if they came out equal on some clashes, Gogeta knocked the shit out of him with a few punches. UI Goku could clash with Jiren when Jiren was >> him


----------



## BossKitten (Jan 24, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Who cares if they came out equal on some clashes, Gogeta knocked the shit out of him with a few punches. UI Goku could clash with Jiren when Jiren was >> him



Not some, all direct clashes were equal.

SSJ Gogeta rocked him ONCE.

Nice try though.

*Edit: Please know the difference between a clash and an exchange before responding.*


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> Not some, all direct clashes were equal.
> 
> SSJ Gogeta rocked him ONCE.
> 
> ...


Okay sure buddy


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 24, 2019)

Lmao.
> SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Broly not being nigh equal despite multiple even clashes, and both of them breaking the dimension together as an explicit sign of their equalling power.
> Base Gogeta being touted for anything as he dodged his way into immediately going SSJ.
> Tanking dozens of Ki Blast from Blue Gogeta, A finisher attack in soul punisher and being able to power up after, and Gogeta himself needing to power (the hand lifting attack), all of which still wasn't enough to KO him. Broly not even getting a power up comparable to SSB, and instead only further strengthening his SSJ.
> Novel makes it very clear they are nigh equal.

SSB Gogeta >> FP Broly > SSJ Gogeta/SSJ Broly > MUI Goku.

But nah apparently Base Gogeta could have handled them both and only went SSJ for fun, and skipped 3 transformations in response to FP Broly because he rng'd it beforehand.


----------



## Lurko (Jan 24, 2019)

Dr. White said:


> Lmao.
> > SSJ Gogeta and SSJ Broly not being nigh equal despite multiple even clashes, and both of them breaking the dimension together as an explicit sign of their equalling power.
> > Base Gogeta being touted for anything as he dodged his way into immediately going SSJ.
> > Tanking dozens of Ki Blast from Blue Gogeta, A finisher attack in soul punisher and being able to power up after, and Gogeta himself needing to power (the hand lifting attack), all of which still wasn't enough to KO him. Broly not even getting a power up comparable to SSB, and instead only further strengthening his SSJ.
> ...


Broly got stronger has the fight went but Ssb was just too much to keep up with.


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## Dr. White (Jan 24, 2019)

Former OBD Lurker. said:


> Broly got stronger has the fight went but Ssb was just too much to keep up with.


Yes but the fact that he tanked so many hits and forced SSB Gogeta to power up at all means that he wasn't complete fodder to that level of power. Or else Gogeta would have one shotted without even using a signature attack, and would have no reason to use the power up attack on Broly.


----------



## Lurko (Jan 24, 2019)

Dr. White said:


> Yes but the fact that he tanked so many hits and forced SSB Gogeta to power up at all means that he wasn't complete fodder to that level of power. Or else Gogeta would have one shotted without even using a signature attack, and would have no reason to use the power up attack on Broly.


Broly is a Goku Black on roids but ok.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2019)

He was gradually gaining power yeah

But Gogeta was about to light that bitch up before Cheelai saved her boo thang 

He did manage to block a blow from him

And the clashing of their punches destroyed the landscape

It looked like fucking Namek before the bomb went off


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## Lurko (Jan 24, 2019)

People salty


Darth Nihilus said:


> He was gradually gaining power yeah
> 
> But Gogeta was about to light that bitch up before Cheelai saved her boo thang
> 
> ...


It was prison rules when he got serious.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2019)

Former OBD Lurker. said:


> People salty
> 
> It was prison rules when he got serious.



Then in that case Freeza dropped the soap


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> Doubt it.


Thats fantastic

Still true tho


OneSimpleAnime said:


> Gogeta Blue was straight styling on Broly with no effort and smiling the whole time
> 
> MUI doesnt even offer much help when Gogeta is >>>> him already


Exactly


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## Lurko (Jan 24, 2019)

Darth Nihilus said:


> Then in that case Freeza dropped the soap


Frieza got raped by Broly for a hour


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2019)

Former OBD Lurker. said:


> Frieza got raped by Broly for a hour



Bruh was straight raw dogging Freeza and he took it all 

DBS: Longest Yard Edition


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2019)

Broly was Omar from The Wire for an entire hour


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## Lurko (Jan 24, 2019)

Darth Nihilus said:


> Broly was Omar from The Wire for an entire hour


The fucked up part is frieza thinks he can control Broly.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2019)

Former OBD Lurker. said:


> The fucked up part is frieza thinks he can control Broly.



Broly is the perfect example of what a Zenkai boost is without senzu beans


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## Lurko (Jan 24, 2019)

Darth Nihilus said:


> Broly is the perfect example of what a Zenkai boost is without senzu beans


Imagine what would happen if he had a near death Zenkai.


----------



## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> You can't run screaming "I win" and think it actually counts as a win, lol.



>one punch staggers Broly
>"equal"

Keep telling yourself that ad naseum all you want.


----------



## BossKitten (Jan 25, 2019)

Fang said:


> >one punch staggers Broly
> >"equal"
> 
> Keep telling yourself that ad naseum all you want.



By your logic, Mike Tyson shouldn't be able to get hurt by an exact clone of Mike Tyson.


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 25, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Gogeta Blue was straight styling on Broly with no effort and smiling the whole time
> 
> MUI doesnt even offer much help when Gogeta is >>>> him already



Gogeta went Hyper Blue Kaioken on Broly at the end. No shit it was going to be "no effort" because Gogeta went all out to prevent Broly from catching up to him after that final zenkai boost that Broly received. And it worked anyway because the beating SSBEKK Gogeta gave Broly snapped the guy out of his mania.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 25, 2019)

NightmareCinema said:


> Gogeta went Hyper Blue Kaioken on Broly at the end. No shit it was going to be "no effort" because Gogeta went all out to prevent Broly from catching up to him after that final zenkai boost that Broly received. And it worked anyway because the beating SSBEKK Gogeta gave Broly snapped the guy out of his mania.


It didnt snap him out of anything, Broly just got sent away


----------



## Fang (Jan 25, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> By your logic, Mike Tyson shouldn't be able to get hurt by an exact clone of Mike Tyson.



No, because my logic and reasoning isn't based around 90% of my argument using semantics like trying to play word games of "exchange" vs "clash". Once more, you can't put up anything to counter the fact a single punch to the face had Broly stunned, skill does not make one stronger then they actually are.

Get over it.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 25, 2019)

NightmareCinema said:


> Gogeta went Hyper Blue Kaioken on Broly at the end.


Excuse you?


----------



## Juub (Jan 25, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Excuse you?


Think he’s joking.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 25, 2019)

Juub said:


> Think he’s joking.


Thats my hope


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## BossKitten (Jan 25, 2019)

Fang said:


> No, because my logic and reasoning isn't based around 90% of my argument using semantics like trying to play word games of "exchange" vs "clash". Once more, you can't put up anything to counter the fact a single punch to the face had Broly stunned, skill does not make one stronger then they actually are.
> 
> Get over it.



A clash is when two opposing forces collide, which results in the stronger force overpowering the weaker one. 

An exchange is a trade, like two people trading punches. That's where SKILL comes into play, and it isn't based on power. 

The fact that I had to explain the difference between the two says a lot about your argument. 

Mike Tyson being able to rock another Mike Tyson has nothing to do with one being stronger than the other. It's called a good hit. 

Do you understand, or is it still too complicated for you?


----------



## Fang (Jan 25, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> *snip for semantics*



I don't think you understand. Which is why you keep avoiding and dancing around the fact that a punch from Super Saiyan Gogeta completely staggered and dazed Super Saiyan Broly.

So I'll take that as you conceding after ignoring this multiple times.


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## BossKitten (Jan 25, 2019)

Fang said:


> I don't think you understand. Which is why you keep avoiding and dancing around the fact that a punch from Super Saiyan Gogeta completely staggered and dazed Super Saiyan Broly.
> 
> So I'll take that as you conceding after ignoring this multiple times.



Broly shook off the punch. Stop making things up. 

Just because you can hit as hard as someone else, it doesn't mean you can't get rocked by that same amount of power. 

You completely overlook the fact that every clash ended in a draw. 

Gogeta won the exchanges, because of something called SKILL. 

You keep trying to run off with your imaginary W because you have nothing to stand on.

Your predicted response:
- But ssj Gogeta hurt him with a punch
- But, but Gogeta knows how to fly away. 

Same old song and dance. If you want to call it quits, just walk away from the debate.


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 25, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Excuse you?


Pay attention to Gogeta’s aura at the end.



Juub said:


> Think he’s joking.


Only one who’s a joke here is you but sure.


----------



## Juub (Jan 25, 2019)

NightmareCinema said:


> Pay attention to Gogeta’s aura at the end.
> 
> 
> Only one who’s a joke here is you but sure.


@WorldsStrongest Nah this kid is serious. Pay him no mind. I heard he got whacked over the head with a shovel as a kid and has had trouble thinking straight since that time.


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## Hachibi (Jan 25, 2019)

NightmareCinema said:


> Pay attention to Gogeta’s aura at the end.



They were neither blue sparkles nor the red aura associated with both tho


----------



## Veggie (Jan 25, 2019)

Saw the movie. It was great, Gogeta was always ahead in power and skill while Broly was playing catch up. But until Gogeta went SSB the difference was not that massive, or enough for him to finish Broly. There was a reason Gogeta went Blue, and it wasn't for shits and giggles. Broly endured so much from Blue, it was really impressive. I can only imagine how powerful he would be if he went God, Blue or UI.

For the topic, come on, it's a fusion of Goku himself vs himself? Gogeta obviously.

I think Broly would beat UI Goku


----------



## Fang (Jan 25, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> Broly shook off the punch. Stop making things up.



I'm not making anything up. He had to recover himself after he got momentarily stunned.From a single punch from Gogeta to the face. That's all that needs to be said.



> Just because you can hit as hard as someone else, it doesn't mean you can't get rocked by that same amount of power.



Way to torpedo your initial claims. You claim in a clash they are equal, now are conceding Broly doesn't have parity to take blows from someone who can match or exceed his own strength while Gogeta has no issue.

I'll take that concession too.



> You completely overlook the fact that every clash ended in a draw.



I didn't. You narrowly are focusing on the very start of their fight and completely single-mindlessly disregarded Gogeta's casual punches decking Broly, stunning and shocking him with casual strikes right after their initial "clash". This is your problem, not ours.



> Gogeta won the exchanges, because of something called SKILL.



And because he's also far stronger than Broly, because of something called POWER as well as skill and experience.



> You keep trying to run off with your imaginary W because you have nothing to stand on.



I'm not the one cherry picking small bits of the fight to paint a false narrative of what actually happened in their battle, so no, I don't think so and no one is buying what you are trying to sell here. And nothing imaginary about the fact the film is straight up showing Broly was out matched in every capacity by Gogeta. 



> Your predicted response:
> - But ssj Gogeta hurt him with a punch
> - But, but Gogeta knows how to fly away.



All of those things are objectively true. Still not seeing a rebuttal to this btw.



> Same old song and dance. If you want to call it quits, just walk away from the debate.



I won't simply because you are stone-walling.


----------



## Juub (Jan 25, 2019)

@Fang @BossKitten What are you two arguing about?


----------



## Fang (Jan 25, 2019)

Juub said:


> @Fang @BossKitten What are you two arguing about?



Their claiming SS Broly was even with SS Gogeta for most of their fight or some other nonsense.


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 25, 2019)

Juub said:


> @Fang @BossKitten What are you two arguing about?



They're talking about SSJ Gogeta vs SSJ Broly and their strenght relative to each other


----------



## Juub (Jan 25, 2019)

Fang said:


> Their claiming SS Broly was even with SS Gogeta for most of their fight or some other nonsense.





Hachibi said:


> They're talking about SSJ Gogeta vs SSJ Broly and their strenght relative to each other


I would definitely give the edge to SSJ Gogeta. He seemed a lot more casual about it. I always thought SSJ Gogeta>/=SSJ Broly as a minimum.


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 25, 2019)

Juub said:


> I would definitely give the edge to SSJ Gogeta. He seemed a lot more casual about it. I always thought SSJ Gogeta>/=SSJ Broly as a minimum.



He was on top several times in the fight too, like the kick + Ki barrage combo, the punch barrage in the dimension, the uppercut that dazzed Broly, etc...


----------



## BossKitten (Jan 25, 2019)

Juub said:


> @Fang @BossKitten What are you two arguing about?



My argument is based on the difference between the two being Gogeta's skill as opposed to raw power. 

I say this because when ssj Gogeta and Broly exchanged strikes, Gogeta came out on top; however, when they would clash with each other or clash ki attacks, they were even. 

Fang thinks Gogeta is more powerful because he rocked Broly with a punch.

I was pointing out that you can still get rocked by someone who is your equal.


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 25, 2019)

Hachibi said:


> They were neither blue sparkles nor the red aura associated with both tho


>Red flashes
>Vegeta’s aura still looked like Hyper Blue’s even without the blue sparkles

Topkek


----------



## SSBMonado (Jan 25, 2019)

Gogeta was using Hyper KK Blue in the same way Goku went MUI in the process of going blue and Vegeta went LSSJ in the process of going SSJ - which is to say not at all. It's just the animators throwing in little touches to get reactions out of the fanbase.

Also, with Goku needing to conjure up a yellow, green, white and red aura in order to go blue, what are the odds of us getting "Super Saiyan Rainbow" next?

And what was the thread we had the other day, where some moron claimed lava was a threat to DB characters? Now that we've had Broly and Goku fight submerged in magma while acting like they're in room-temperature water, I invite you to bring that up again


----------



## Juub (Jan 25, 2019)

SSBMonado said:


> Gogeta was using Hyper KK Blue in the same way Goku went MUI in the process of going blue and Vegeta went LSSJ in the process of going SSJ - which is to say not at all. It's just the animators throwing in little touches to get reactions out of the fanbase.
> 
> Also, with Goku needing to conjure up a yellow, green, white and red aura in order to go blue, what are the odds of us getting "Super Saiyan Rainbow" next?
> 
> And what was the thread we had the other day, where some moron claimed lava was a threat to DB characters? Now that we've had Broly and Goku fight submerged in magma while acting like they're in room-temperature water, I invite you to bring that up again


Yup. Nappa is also the first canon SSJ2.



See the sparks?


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 25, 2019)

NightmareCinema said:


> >Red flashes
> >Vegeta’s aura still looked like Hyper Blue’s even without the blue sparkles
> 
> Topkek







Totally the same thing

Despite the fact that a) he lacked SSBE's pupil and sparkles (and no, the SSB aura and hair in the movie is different from SSBE's) and b) He didn't have the red aura overlapped with the blue one from SSB (which is historically always shown when Goku used SSBKK) and c) he logically didn't need it anyway considering he was beating the fuck out of Broly in Blue


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 25, 2019)

Juub said:


> Yup. Nappa is also the first canon SSJ2.
> 
> 
> 
> See the sparks?



Nappa was the first Calvo Saiyan

Put respect on his name punk


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 25, 2019)

Juub said:


> @WorldsStrongest Nah this kid is serious. Pay him no mind. I heard he got whacked over the head with a shovel as a kid and has had trouble thinking straight since that time.


That’s rich coming from someone who said Zamasu didn’t slow down when he bulked up despite all evidence pointing to it. All that jizz you snorted affected your brain and there’s no saving you. Fuck off will you, yeah?


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jan 25, 2019)

Hachibi said:


> Totally the same thing
> 
> Despite the fact that a) he lacked SSBE's pupil and sparkles (and no, the SSB aura and hair in the movie is different from SSBE's) and b) He didn't have the red aura overlapped with the blue one from SSB (which is historically always shown when Goku used SSBKK) and c) he logically didn't need it anyway considering he was beating the fuck out of Broly in Blue


And yet Gogeta powered up even more when Broly did as well.

Yet only Goku’s aura showed the flashes of red.

You being this anally retentive doesn’t change the fact that the movie included the red flashes as well as make Vegeta’s aura look like Hyper Blue’s. How about you rewatch the scene where Vegeta transforms and slows it down because it shows the sparkles there.


----------



## SSBMonado (Jan 25, 2019)

Are you ignoring that neither Vegeta nor Gogeta got noticaly more buff or got the pretty pupils?
'cause that's pretty much what hyper blue is - SSJ grade 2 level bulk with blue hair and pretty pupils, yet neither Vegeta nor Gogeta showed any signs of it.

You're tunnel visioned on some sparkles... in a fight that's basically a 50-minute fireworks display... in a movie where -again- Goku appeared to go MUI in order to transform into blue, and Vegeta got green hair + aura for a second when turning SSJ.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2019)

NightmareCinema said:


> You being this anally retentive doesn’t change the fact that the movie included the red flashes as well as make Vegeta’s aura look like Hyper Blue’s. How about you rewatch the scene where Vegeta transforms and slows it down because it shows the sparkles there.



And you being so desperate to do, whatever it is you're doing that you're grasping at straws and misrepresenting what's happening on screen  doesn't change the fact that you're completely and totally incorrect.


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 25, 2019)

NightmareCinema said:


> And yet Gogeta powered up even more when Broly did as well.



He was beating his ass even before he powered up and Broly did. So nope. Also you can power up 



> Yet only Goku’s aura showed the flashes of red.



Goku's aura was also green when he was transforming to SSB, while Vegeta's hair briefly turned to green when he was transforming into SSJ. I guess they have LSSJ then 



> You being this anally retentive doesn’t change the fact that the movie included the red flashes as well as make Vegeta’s aura look like Hyper Blue’s. How about you rewatch the scene where Vegeta transforms and slows it down because it shows the sparkles there.



That literally mean nothing considering Vegeta was obviously in normal Blue. Once again, it's just the animator flexing their budget. Also, Goku has the same aura as Vegeta. Does that means he has SSBE?


----------



## Juub (Jan 25, 2019)

NightmareCinema said:


> That’s rich coming from someone who said Zamasu didn’t slow down when he bulked up despite all evidence pointing to it. All that jizz you snorted affected your brain and there’s no saving you. Fuck off will you, yeah?



I said it can go either way depending on how you interpret it. I said it's either Vegeto ramped up his speed(after he powered up) or Merged Zamasu got slower. Something I hammered about three times in that thread. If you think he got slower fine, if you think he didn't that's fine as well.

Sure as hell more grounded in reality than Hyper Blue Kaioken Gogeta.



Also, now that LSSJ is canon, the whole muscle mass=slower flies out the window.

I see @The Immortal WatchDog and @Es disowning you broke your fragile psyche.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2019)

I'm just gonna assume NC is going to have a titty attack and toss out some really transparent bravado to try and conceal the fact that he's a complete wreck at the moment. So I'll be automatically dismissing anything he says in any thread he contributes on from this point forward.

However, I want to point out that this is not how you go about providing evidence to reinforce your argument, especially when the argument is contingent on your personal opinion and in full ignorance of the facts.



Juub said:


> I said it can go either way depending on how you interpret it. I said it's either Vegeto ramped up his speed(after he powered up) or Merged Zamasu got slower. Something I hammered about three times in that thread. If you think he got slower fine, if you think he didn't that's fine as well.
> 
> Sure as hell more grounded in reality than Hyper Blue Kaioken Gogeta.
> 
> ...




oh dear me, caught red handed twisting a posters words against them in a thinly veiled attempt at a cheapshot. The hallmark of a foundationless argument.



Juub said:


> I see @The Immortal WatchDog and @Es disowning you broke your fragile psyche.



What does one expect? When one goes out to get a pack of cigarettes only to return to find the FBI at your door informing you, your son thinks you're an immortal chi using Asian terrorist 

I believe that's grounds for parental abandonment


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 25, 2019)

I can't find Broly vs Goku and Vegeta rn but this will do

Tell me with honesty if Goku was _really_ in SSBKK here (despite missing the red aura)
Or was trying to go in LSSJ (which we never knew he had despite following him for decades)
Or it was simply the animator flexing their talents and the budget to make a grandiose transformation

I will wait


----------



## 1337RedGlitchFox (Jan 25, 2019)

Guys, stop bullying my blonde rich ojousama.

Imma toss it to Gogeta by the by.

Gogeta Blue? 30 minute transformation.
MUI? Im lead to believe it lasted less than 5 fucking minutes.

Jesus christ, even Frieza was checking his watch waiting for a full minute to pass.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 25, 2019)

Juub said:


> Also, now that LSSJ is canon, the whole muscle mass=slower flies out the window.



well, 100% Freeza way earlier proved that bigger muscles doesn't necessarily mean slower too 

Vegeto said something to the effect of "Can't your body seeped in rage keep up with my speed?" which is basically the foundation for the "Zamasu got slower" argument


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 25, 2019)

Gogeta clearly was clearly fucking around, he didnt defuse from using too much energy like Vegito did.

That means the gap between Gogeta Blue and Broly is bigger then the one between Vegito Blue and F. Zamasu


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 25, 2019)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> well, 100% Freeza way earlier proved that bigger muscles doesn't necessarily mean slower too
> 
> Vegeto said something to the effect of "Can't your body seeped in rage keep up with my speed?" which is basically the foundation for the "Zamasu got slower" argument


The power weighted form is the only real transformation that has the speed loss drawback due to prioritizing power over it

It was never really more muscles = slower


----------



## Juub (Jan 25, 2019)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> well, 100% Freeza way earlier proved that bigger muscles doesn't necessarily mean slower too
> 
> Vegeto said something to the effect of "Can't your body seeped in rage keep up with my speed?" which is basically the foundation for the "Zamasu got slower" argument


Oh I did use that argument. Buff Roshi got added to the mix as well.

Slower - SSJ 3rd Grade
Faster - Buff Roshi, 100% Frieza, FPSSJ

Yet I got called a retard back then for even proposing that Vegeto simply got fed up, powered up and fucked up Zamasu something awful.


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Jan 25, 2019)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> well, 100% Freeza way earlier proved that bigger muscles doesn't necessarily mean slower too
> 
> Vegeto said something to the effect of "Can't your body seeped in rage keep up with my speed?" which is basically the foundation for the "*Zamasu* *got* *slower*" argument


Honestly even using that argument we saw him match trunks in speed multiple times in their fight so that falls flat on its ass


----------



## Adamant soul (Jan 25, 2019)

Okay, now that I've actually seen the movie I can weigh in.

SSJ Gogeta was absolutely stronger than SSJ Broly, there's no doubting that. From his blows having a lot more effect on Broly than vice versa. The difference wasn't really massive but enough to force Broly to have to power up to LSSJ in order to overpower SSJ Gogeta.

LSSJ Broly was taking shots from Gogeta Blue like a champ and the latter was putting more effort in as he went, powering up multiple times and even resorting to signature attacks like Soul Punisher and eventually a Kamehameha.

Broly gives UI Goku the "puny god" treatment.


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Jan 25, 2019)

The only real way to compare them is with the references in relation to the hakaishins, according to that Broly and MUI are about the same tier.

There's no way to know who would win if they where to actually fight.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 25, 2019)

UI goku would lose just on the basis of the form's retarded ass drawback

and Broly would just keep getting stronger the longer the fight goes on since he has Hit's adaptation on fucking crack cocaine.


----------



## Gordo solos (Jan 25, 2019)

I’d like to think MUI would dodge their attacks for a while before the time limit runs out


----------



## Fang (Jan 25, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> My argument is based



Your argument is based on being disingenuous on the context of the scenes involving their fight, misrepresenting what actually happened and rooted in literally using semantics to make a claim. He did ZERO damage to Gogeta when they were both fighting as Super Saiyans, he was being dominated and unable to land a single hit on Gogeta throughout 99% of their entire fight as 'regular' Super Saiyans and the one time he manages a hit to Gogeta...does literally nothing.

The entire point of him powering up to his Not-LSSJ aka Full Power Super Saiyan form was because Gogeta was too much for his Super Saiyan form, which the film emphasized abundantly and with total clarity.

So your argument has been debunked repeatedly.



> Fang thinks Gogeta is more powerful because he rocked Broly with a punch.



Which is completely factual.

>struggles to keep up with Base Gogeta's speed
>same Base Gogeta who was parrying and deflecting away an enraged Super Saiyan Broly's numerous Ki blasts while smirking and enjoying himself without a KI AURA indicating he wasn't even using his full power in his base form
>couldn't touch Gogeta
>gets rocked multiple times by casual punches from Super Saiyan Gogeta and has to shake himself from being disoriented and stunned for a moment
>one time he hits Gogeta, Gogeta simply isn't phased by it

The movie supports me, not you.



> I was pointing out that you can still get rocked by someone who is your equal.



Except they were never equal.


----------



## Dreams of Tommorow (Jan 25, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Gogeta clearly was clearly fucking around, he didnt defuse from using too much energy like Vegito did.



or the writers chose to not give a darn about the little deets


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Jan 25, 2019)

The whole Broly vs Gogeta fight lasted like a minute right?

No reason for the fusion to run out.

Actually it shouldn't even last 10 seconds seeing as Gotenks using SS3 reduced his fusion time to ¿was it 5 minutes? but this is Toei.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Jan 26, 2019)

NightmareCinema said:


> >Red flashes
> >Vegeta’s aura still looked like Hyper Blue’s even without the blue sparkles
> 
> Topkek


Vegetas aura at one point was freaking green...

Was he going LSSJ as well or???

Kaioken also isnt "red flashes"...Its an entire dominant red aura that affects a persons freaking skin tone when used...

At best, you can argue for an animator quirk to make SSB look cooler 

Its CONFIRMED by AT and the directors and animators of the film that they were using SSB as Goku and Vegeta and Gogetas pinnacle form bruh

"Hyper Blue" and Kaioken dont make an appearance


----------



## BossKitten (Jan 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> Your argument is based on being disingenuous on the context of the scenes involving their fight, misrepresenting what actually happened and rooted in literally using semantics to make a claim. He did ZERO damage to Gogeta when they were both fighting as Super Saiyans, he was being dominated and unable to land a single hit on Gogeta throughout 99% of their entire fight as 'regular' Super Saiyans and the one time he manages a hit to Gogeta...does literally nothing.
> 
> The entire point of him powering up to his Not-LSSJ aka Full Power Super Saiyan form was because Gogeta was too much for his Super Saiyan form, which the film emphasized abundantly and with total clarity.
> 
> ...




You keep tossing around the word semantics as if clashing and exchanging are the same thing. 

Every direct power clash was equal.

Fighting exhanges were in favor of Gogeta.

Deal with it.


----------



## Adamant soul (Jan 26, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> Every direct power clash was equal.



Bullshit

When Gogeta punched Broly, it actually staggered him and he had to shake it off.

When Broly punched Gogeta, it did literally nothing. 

As I said before, the gap isn't massive but SSJ Gogeta was clearly stronger (not just more skilled) than SSJ Broly.


----------



## Flame (Jan 26, 2019)

Yall agree on Gogeta > UI, but what about Broly? Haven't seen the movie yet so I really want to know if he's stronger or not.


----------



## Adamant soul (Jan 26, 2019)

La Flame said:


> Yall agree on Gogeta > UI, but what about Broly? Haven't seen the movie yet so I really want to know if he's stronger or not.



Broly bends UI Goku over as well.

A fusion of two characters (Caulifla and Kale) who aren't even SSJG Goku level on their own, made them strong enough to take blows from the incomplete version of UI Goku.

Even MUI Goku would be lucky if he could fight BASE Gogeta, never mind force Gogeta to use Blue like LSSJ Broly did.


----------



## Flame (Jan 26, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> Broly bends UI Goku over as well.
> 
> A fusion of two characters (Caulifla and Kale) who aren't even SSJG Goku level on their own, made them strong enough to take blows from the incomplete version of UI Goku.
> 
> Even MUI Goku would be lucky if he could fight BASE Gogeta, never mind force Gogeta to use Blue like LSSJ Broly did.


So how come no one believes Broly > Jiren if everyone (at least from what i'm seeing here) knows he's stronger than UI while Jiren was = at best?

Btw, not that it makes any difference, but isn't Kale basically Universe 6's Broly? which means she, too, can reach the same tier. Dunno about Kefla but since she's half Kale she can also keep powering up?


----------



## Adamant soul (Jan 26, 2019)

La Flame said:


> So how come no one believes Broly > Jiren if everyone (at least from what i'm seeing here) knows he's stronger than UI while Jiren was = at best?



No one with any sense believes Jiren > Broly, the feats are plain as day. One was overwhelmed by just Goku while the other managed to force a fusion of Goku and Vegeta to use his strongest form. Jiren might beat Base/Humanoid Oozaru Broly but SSJ and LSSJ Broly break Jiren in half like a fucking toothpick. 


> Btw, not that it makes any difference, but isn't Kale basically Universe 6's Broly? which means she, too, can reach the same tier. Dunno about Kefla but since she's half Kale she can also keep powering up?



Kale hasn't shown anywhere near the same level of power increasing that Broly did. SSJG Goku was kicking her ass even while he was drained and exhausted from his fight with Jiren. Same applies to Kefla.


----------



## Flame (Jan 26, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> No one with any sense believes Jiren > Broly, the feats are plain as day. One was overwhelmed by just Goku while the other managed to force a fusion of Goku and Vegeta to use his strongest form. Jiren might beat Base/Humanoid Oozaru Broly but SSJ and LSSJ Broly break Jiren in half like a fucking toothpick.


Well there's an ongoing thread about that, that's why i asked.



> Kale hasn't shown anywhere near the same level of power increasing that Broly did. SSJG Goku was kicking her ass even while he was drained and exhausted from his fight with Jiren. Same applies to Kefla.


I mean, she basically went from a complete fodder to wrecking shit up and eliminating half the fighters, tho' non were on the same tier as Goku and co.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 26, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> Broly bends UI Goku over as well.
> 
> A fusion of two characters (Caulifla and Kale) who aren't even SSJG Goku level on their own, made them strong enough to take blows from the incomplete version of UI Goku.
> 
> Even MUI Goku would be lucky if he could fight BASE Gogeta, never mind force Gogeta to use Blue like LSSJ Broly did.


Nah Gogeta at least needs ssj to destroy UI, his base form is probably around GoD level and MUI is > that


----------



## Adamant soul (Jan 26, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Nah Gogeta at least needs ssj to destroy UI,



Why would he need SSJ? The base forms of fused fighters are > any form of their individual parts, we saw this with Kefla and we see it with Gogeta dancing around Broly's energy blasts when the Blues and Golden Frieza couldn't avoid him at all.


> his base form is probably around GoD level and MUI is > that



Probably? Based on what?

MUI > GoD so Base Gogeta would be > that because that's how fusion has always worked.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 26, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> Why would he need SSJ? The base forms of fused fighters are > any form of their individual parts, we saw this with Kefla and we see it with Gogeta dancing around Broly's energy blasts when the Blues and Golden Frieza couldn't avoid him at all.
> 
> 
> Probably? Based on what?
> ...


Its not a form that Goku can naturally use and has more drawbacks than any form of SSJ. The fusion multiplier is > SSB multiplier but that doesnt mean its > UI which is >>> SSBKKx20


----------



## Adamant soul (Jan 26, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Its not a form that Goku can naturally use and has more drawbacks than any form of SSJ.



That's nice and all but it doesn't change the fact Base Fusions are consistently > Any form the individual fighters had access to.


> The fusion multiplier is > SSB multiplier but that doesnt mean its > UI which is >>> SSBKKx20



Yes MUI > SSJBKKx20 and so is Base Gogeta given he was able to avoid attacks from SSJ Broly, same dude who was then shown to not be much weaker than SSJ Gogeta. There's a reason Goku didn't even consider using anything but fusion against Broly, he knew nothing else would have worked, even against just SSJ Broly.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 26, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> That's nice and all but it doesn't change the fact Base Fusions are consistently > Any form the individual fighters had access to.
> 
> 
> Yes MUI > SSJBKKx20 and so is Base Gogeta given he was able to avoid attacks from SSJ Broly, same dude who was then shown to not be much weaker than SSJ Gogeta. There's a reason Goku didn't even consider using anything but fusion against Broly, he knew nothing else would have worked, even against just SSJ Broly.


We dont even know what canon the movie follows since Goku never used KK and Vegeta didnt use SSBE, it seems to go with manga canon where those dont even exist and Goku and Vegeta are much weaker than their anime selves.


----------



## Fang (Jan 26, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> You keep tossing around the word semantics as if clashing and exchanging are the same thing.



Because your argument is based off and rooted in word games, not visual evidence.



> Every direct power clash was equal.



They weren't.



> Fighting exhanges were in favor of Gogeta.



If by in favor of Gogeta you mean him stomping all over Broly, then sure.



> Deal with it.



I have.


----------



## Veggie (Jan 26, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> We dont even know what canon the movie follows since Goku never used KK and Vegeta didnt use SSBE, it seems to go with manga canon where those dont even exist and Goku and Vegeta are much weaker than their anime selves.


KK and SSBE were not going to be enough for Broly who was already washing their Blue versions. I remember the movie showed clips of the Anime's ToP. Pretty sure that means it's moving the anime cannon. But also this Movie is a cannon of it's own that will be the main Cannon until a Super sequel comes out.


----------



## Fang (Jan 26, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> it seems to go with manga canon where those dont even exist and Goku and Vegeta are much weaker than their anime selves.



The movie was announced first to directly follow the anime. Later on it was also announced the manga would follow the movie as well. The entire reason why SSBE and SSB Kaioken aren't a thing in it is because Toriyama never liked those forms to begin with. You'll also remember the movie was originally supposed to come out earlier then it did and its likely due to the backlash over the explanation that one of the DBS guest episode directors tried to explain how Vegeta's SSBE form was the same as Goku's SSB Kaioken x20 which pissed people off in Japan.


----------



## Adamant soul (Jan 26, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> We dont even know what canon the movie follows since Goku never used KK and Vegeta didnt use SSBE, it seems to go with manga canon where those dont even exist and Goku and Vegeta are much weaker than their anime selves.



It works with either canon, Goku and Vegeta didn't use those forms because they wouldn't have done shit against someone who could take blows from SSJ Gogeta. Base Gogeta is still > MUI either way.


----------



## The Runner (Jan 26, 2019)

The movie is sort of a nexus for both the Manga and the Anime, so it’s canon to both

Also UI Goku loses both rounds, and that shitty drawback doesn’t help


----------



## Adamant soul (Jan 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> You'll also remember the movie was originally supposed to come out earlier then it did and its likely due to the backlash over the explanation that one of the DBS guest episode directors tried to explain how Vegeta's SSBE form was the same as Goku's SSB Kaioken x20 which pissed people off in Japan.



Fucking what? Did people really throw a fit because SSBE = SSBKKx20, which was clearly shown in-series anyway by them having comparable performances against Jiren?


----------



## Fang (Jan 26, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> Fucking what? Did people really throw a fit because SSBE = SSBKKx20, which was clearly shown in-series anyway by them having comparable performances against Jiren?



No, Japs didn't like the retarded explanation from the guest director for Super saying SSBE was equivalent to SSB Kaioken.Which is again probably why Toei didn't include SSBE or SSB Kaioken in the movie. It has nothing to do with Jiren directly, they just didn't like that a new Super Saiyan form was basically Vegeta's version of Goku stacking Kaioken on SSB.


----------



## Adamant soul (Jan 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> No, Japs didn't like the retarded explanation from the guest director for Super saying SSBE was equivalent to SSB Kaioken.Which is again probably why Toei didn't include SSBE or SSB Kaioken in the movie. It has nothing to do with Jiren directly, they just didn't like that a new Super Saiyan form was basically Vegeta's version of Goku stacking Kaioken on SSB.



Ah okay, I just figured they didn't put the forms in the movie so as not to confuse people who had only seen BoG and RoF but hadn't seen Super itself.


----------



## Fang (Jan 26, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> Ah okay, I just figured they didn't put the forms in the movie so as not to confuse people who had only seen BoG and RoF but hadn't seen Super itself.



Yeah naw that wasn't it. You are talking about a culture who literally go ape shit if the newest AU Gundam doesn't have blatant homages to the UC. Its just how their mindset works on these kind of things.


----------



## Juub (Jan 26, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> It works with either canon, Goku and Vegeta didn't use those forms because they wouldn't have done shit against someone who could take blows from SSJ Gogeta. Base Gogeta is still > MUI either way.


That's pushing it. Don't think you'd find anyone agreeing with that proposition.


----------



## Adamant soul (Jan 26, 2019)

Juub said:


> That's pushing it. Don't think you'd find anyone agreeing with that proposition.



It is a canon fact that Base Fusions > Any form of their individual components, it's been that way since Fusion was introduced and the ToP showed (through Kefla) that it has not changed.

People can agree or disagree with whatever the fuck they want, doesn't change how fusion works.


----------



## Juub (Jan 26, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> It is a canon fact that Base Fusions > Any form of their individual components, it's been that way since Fusion was introduced and the ToP showed (through Kefla) that it has not changed.
> 
> People can agree or disagree with whatever the fuck they want, doesn't change how fusion works.


Sure, I agree that Base Gogeta should have more power than SSJB Goku/Vegeta and he seems to be to be at least in the same ballpark but MUI is a very special case and Goku can't even access it at will. It's a very different beasts from the other regular transformations.

Plus you have the whole Broly might be stronger than Beerus. If Base Gogeta could beat MUI, then that would mean SSJ Broly could dust him and there would be no grounds for Beerus being even comparable. He'd straight up be outclassed.

Last but not least, SSJ Gogeta was stronger than SSJ Broly but still in the same tier. Remove SSJ and the difference remains the same. Ikari Broly was in the same ballpark as SSJB Goku/Vegeta so that's where Base Gogeta would end up being as well.


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Jan 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> The movie was announced first to directly follow the anime. Later on it was also announced the manga would follow the movie as well. The entire reason why SSBE and SSB Kaioken aren't a thing in it is because Toriyama never liked those forms to begin with. You'll also remember the movie was originally supposed to come out earlier then it did and its likely due to the backlash over the explanation that one of the DBS guest episode directors tried to explain how Vegeta's SSBE form was the same as Goku's SSB Kaioken x20 which *pissed* people off in Japan.


Really cause I don’t remember nips being pissed about that


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Jan 26, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> Fucking what? Did people really throw a fit because SSBE = SSBKKx20, which was clearly shown in-series anyway by them having comparable performances against Jiren?


In the fanbase yes mainly vegeta fanboys cause they thought evolution >kkx20 blue goku cause of his fight with toppo 
Though the director never directed the episodes involving SSJBE however it probably the mindset down there at Toei HQ that evolution=ssjbkk x20


----------



## Fang (Jan 26, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Really cause I don’t remember nips being pissed about that



Going by what I saw on Nico NIco, Pixiv, and Futaba, they were pretty pissed. But it must just be a very vocal minority.


----------



## God Movement (Jan 26, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> MUI > GoD so Base Gogeta would be > that because that's how fusion has always worked.





I'm afraid not. MUI is not a transformation Goku can willingly tap into (which is the primary issue), but what is also worth mentioning is that the transformation which enables the usage of Ultra Instinct is NOT in the regular Saiyan transformation tree. In principle, you're right, from what we have seen throughout the manga/Super, base fusion tends to be > all transformations of its fusees. But what you're arguing here is that Base Gogeta is stronger than a transformation which basically doesn't even currently exist in Goku's arsenal.


----------



## The Runner (Jan 26, 2019)

UI is also a state of mind. That’s not something you can tap into to transform like a SSJ form. It’s especially stated to be hard for Vegeta, too.

Although regardless, Base Gogeta should be above that too, tbh


----------



## Juub (Jan 26, 2019)

Sir Jogga said:


> UI is also a state of mind. That’s not something you can tap into to transform like a SSJ form. It’s especially stated to be hard for Vegeta, too.
> 
> Although regardless, Base Gogeta should be above that too, tbh


Above UI? Come on son.


----------



## Hardcore (Jan 26, 2019)

God Movement said:


> I'm afraid not. MUI is not a transformation Goku can willingly tap into (which is the primary issue), but what is also worth mentioning is that the transformation which enables the usage of Ultra Instinct is NOT in the regular Saiyan transformation tree. In principle, you're right, from what we have seen throughout the manga/Super, base fusion tends to be > all transformations of its fusees. But what you're arguing here is that Base Gogeta is stronger than a transformation which basically doesn't even currently exist in Goku's arsenal.



fully agree with this

but then the question is, if it was a transformation in Goku's arsenal, then would base Gogeta automatically become superior?


----------



## God Movement (Jan 26, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> fully agree with this
> 
> but then the question is, if it was a transformation in Goku's arsenal, then would base Gogeta automatically become superior?



Hard to say.

The conflict comes from the fact that we've seen that Base Fusion > Transformations of Fusees, but the primary difference here is that MUI (or the LB transformation which enables it) isn't a regular Saiyan transformation, so it may not count in the equation. The only answer I can give is: I don't know.


----------



## The Runner (Jan 26, 2019)

Juub said:


> Above UI? Come on son.


Above UI Goku? Yeah I can believe that. Especially considering he doesn’t have UI’s shitty drawbacks


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 26, 2019)

God Movement said:


> I'm afraid not. MUI is not a transformation Goku can willingly tap into (which is the primary issue), but what is also worth mentioning is that the transformation which enables the usage of Ultra Instinct is NOT in the regular Saiyan transformation tree. In principle, you're right, from what we have seen throughout the manga/Super, base fusion tends to be > all transformations of its fusees. But what you're arguing here is that Base Gogeta is stronger than a transformation which basically doesn't even currently exist in Goku's arsenal.


Yes but even then you are assuming that Goku can tap into some internal power that would inherently be > a multiplication of him and his strength up to blue, and Vegeta, not to mention post ToP. I find that to be pretty outlandish Imo.


----------



## Juub (Jan 26, 2019)

Sir Jogga said:


> Above UI Goku? Yeah I can believe that. Especially considering he doesn’t have UI’s shitty drawbacks


Kinda doubt it. That would put Base Broly close full power Jiren’s tier.


----------



## The Runner (Jan 26, 2019)

Juub said:


> Kinda doubt it. That would put Base Broly close full power Jiren’s tier.


Why? Base Broly wasn’t fighting Base Gogeta. SSJ Broly was.


----------



## Juub (Jan 26, 2019)

Sir Jogga said:


> Why? Base Broly wasn’t fighting Base Gogeta. SSJ Broly was.


True but SSJ Gogeta was fighting SSJ Broly and wasn’t immensely more powerful. Strip away their SSJ and the difference in their Base should be roughly the same.


----------



## The Runner (Jan 26, 2019)

Juub said:


> True but SSJ Gogeta was fighting SSJ Broly and wasn’t immensely more powerful. Strip away their SSJ and the difference in their Base should be roughly the same.


Base Gogeta was effortlessly deflecting every attack SSJ Broly was shooting at him, and Gogeta latter finesses Broly at SSJ. Broly is just good at damage soaking here.


----------



## Juub (Jan 26, 2019)

Sir Jogga said:


> Base Gogeta was effortlessly deflecting every attack SSJ Broly was shooting at him, and Gogeta latter finesses Broly at SSJ. Broly is just good at damage soaking here.


SSJ Gogeta and Broly were trading blows but were still in the same ballpark. Else he would have dusted him like SSJB Gogeta dusted FPSSJ Broly. 

I agree that SSJ Gogeta was superior but there was still a fight to be had. You can’t have SSJ Broly be able to fight SSJ Gogeta but Ikari Broly weaker than SSJB Goku if you believe Base Gogeta>UI Goku.


----------



## The Runner (Jan 26, 2019)

Juub said:


> SSJ Gogeta and Broly were trading blows but were still in the same ballpark. Else he would have dusted him like SSJB Gogeta dusted FPSSJ Broly.


Yeah but you have to keep in mind that Broly is still getting stronger the longer he fights. That’s how he became LSSJ in the first place. Same shit happened with Ikari Broly too


----------



## Adamant soul (Jan 26, 2019)

Juub said:


> I agree that SSJ Gogeta was superior but there was still a fight to be had. You can’t have SSJ Broly be able to fight SSJ Gogeta but Ikari Broly weaker than SSJB Goku if you believe Base Gogeta>UI Goku.



Unless we come to the very obvious conclusion that Broly's SSJ power up was far bigger than the standard boost (likely due, in part, to him using a combination of Oozaru AND Super Saiyan powers). Not to mention the fact he was getting stronger as the fight went.


----------



## Juub (Jan 26, 2019)

Sir Jogga said:


> Yeah but you have to keep in mind that Broly is still getting stronger the longer he fights. That’s how he became LSSJ in the first place. Same shit happened with Ikari Broly too


True but then you'd end up with SSJ Broly being immensely more powerful than UI who was apparently already relative to Beerus. If FPSSJ Broly is way more powerful than SSJ Broly who's already out of UI's league, then the whole "perhaps stronger than Beerus" holds no water.


Adamant soul said:


> Unless we come to the very obvious conclusion that Broly's SSJ power up was far bigger than the standard boost (likely due, in part, to him using a combination of Oozaru AND Super Saiyan powers). Not to mention the fact he was getting stronger as the fight went.


Not impossible. After all it's referred to as Super Saiyan Type-C and is a different variant of the standard Super Saiyan.


----------



## Adamant soul (Jan 26, 2019)

Juub said:


> True but then you'd end up with SSJ Broly being immensely more powerful than UI who was apparently already relative to Beerus. If FPSSJ Broly is way more powerful than SSJ Broly who's already out of UI's league, then the whole "perhaps stronger than Beerus" holds no water.



Please remember that Goku himself hasn't actually fought, or seen Beerus fight at full power. That's why he only says that he MIGHT be stronger than Beerus, because he doesn't know for sure.

Yes it should be obvious but Goku doesn't know that.


----------



## Fang (Jan 26, 2019)

Juub said:


> SSJ Gogeta and Broly were trading blows but were still in the same ballpark.



I never got this impression. Not only was SS Broly outclassed in speed but "trading blows" is a bit of stretch when SS Gogeta was hammering him and knocking the dude around while Broly was struggling to keep up. The one time he does hit Gogeta, it doesn't really do anything.


----------



## Juub (Jan 26, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> Please remember that Goku himself hasn't actually fought, or seen Beerus fight at full power. That's why he only says that he MIGHT be stronger than Beerus, because he doesn't know for sure.
> 
> Yes it should be obvious but Goku doesn't know that.


I advanced that proposition a while back. I said Goku said that merely because Goku wasn't sure of Beerus' power and couldn't say for certain whether Broly was stronger or not. It was firmly rejected though.


Fang said:


> I never got this impression. Not only was SS Broly outclassed in speed but "trading blows" is a bit of stretch when SS Gogeta was hammering him and knocking the dude around while Broly was struggling to keep up. The one time he does hit Gogeta, it doesn't really do anything.


By same ballpark I mean Broly was at least able to fight back. Against SSJB Gogeta, Gogeta looked like such a bully I wasn't even rooting for him.


----------



## Adamant soul (Jan 26, 2019)

Fang said:


> I never got this impression. Not only was SS Broly outclassed in speed but "trading blows" is a bit of stretch when SS Gogeta was hammering him and knocking the dude around while Broly was struggling to keep up. The one time he does hit Gogeta, it doesn't really do anything.



Broly technically hit him twice, a punch in the face that did nothing and another punch that Gogeta blocked which sent him flying back a bit.

Not disputing that SSJ Gogeta is obviously stronger, though I don't believe the gap is massive or anything.


----------



## Juub (Jan 26, 2019)

Do you guys think it's possible Goku factors UI when considering Beerus' power? Beerus with UI fighting Broly would be completely different than Beerus without UI fighting Broly.


----------



## The Runner (Jan 26, 2019)

Juub said:


> Do you guys think it's possible Goku factors UI when considering Beerus' power? Beerus with UI fighting Broly would be completely different than Beerus without UI fighting Broly.


Goku never fought Beerus going at 100% anyhow, so it really doesn’t matter tbh


----------



## Juub (Jan 26, 2019)

Sir Jogga said:


> Goku never fought Beerus going at 100% anyhow, so it really doesn’t matter tbh


He should at least be able to guesstimate where he stands. Else that comment was for naught.


----------



## The Runner (Jan 26, 2019)

Juub said:


> He should at least be able to guesstimate where he stands. Else that comment was for naught.


It kinda is for naught, until we actually see Beerus have an actual, serious fight.


----------



## Claudio Swiss (Jan 26, 2019)

Goku saw beerus FP in the manga against the other Gods and the manga new arc takes place after broly 
And if you want to be technical he witness beerus fighting champa hard enough that both were bleeding and damaging each other


----------



## Juub (Jan 26, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Goku saw beerus FP in the manga against the other Gods and the manga new arc takes place after broly
> And if you want to be technical he witness beerus fighting champa hard enough that both were bleeding and damaging each other


The GoDs fight was manga only.
The Baseball episode, anime only.

Imagine if he ignored both.


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## SSBMonado (Jan 26, 2019)

If/when there comes a time where Beerus has to fight someone and actually try, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave him a transformation to keep him above Goku and Vegeta
Whis: "He never told you, did he? You see, all of the gods of destruction have an ascended form, which by decree of Zeno-sama, they may only use when absolutely necessary. You have seen Toppo-san from universe 11 use it in the ToP, no? Now you get to see what it does for a real god of destruction"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sigismund (Jan 26, 2019)

SSBMonado said:


> If/when there comes a time where Beerus has to fight someone and actually try, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave him a transformation to keep him above Goku and Vegeta
> Whis: "He never told you, did he? You see, all of the gods of destruction have an ascended form, which by decree of Zeno-sama, they may only use when absolutely necessary. You have seen Toppo-san from universe 11 use it in the ToP, no? Now you get to see what it does for a real god of destruction"


Honestly, that does sound like something Toriyama would do


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## Blacku (Feb 6, 2019)

@NightmareCinema I guess you were trolling about SSBEKK since you did run away at the end.

Next time you try to troll at least try to be somewhat funny.


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## Juub (Feb 6, 2019)

Black Otaku said:


> @NightmareCinema I guess you were trolling about SSBEKK since you did run away at the end.
> 
> Next time you try to troll at least try to be somewhat funny.


Hachibi taught him a lesson. He left thinking we wouldn't remember the L he took but we do. Now he came back as if nothing happened instead of conceding his proposition was huh how do we call that? Yes! Retarded.


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## Jag77 (Feb 8, 2019)

SSJ Gogeta > MUI Goku

ck


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## Divell (Feb 8, 2019)

In dragon Ball heroes MUI you destroyed a character that SSJ4 Vegito count beat.


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Feb 8, 2019)

Divell said:


> In dragon Ball heroes MUI you destroyed a character that SSJ4 Vegito count beat.


you think that makes sense to you?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 8, 2019)

>using Heroes powerscaling
>which doesn't even pretend to be consistent


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## Divell (Feb 9, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> you think that makes sense to you?


Wait. Dragon Ball power scaling is supposed to make sense?

I'm just Saiyan.


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## Claudio Swiss (Feb 9, 2019)

Divell said:


> Wait. Dragon Ball power scaling is supposed to make sense?
> 
> I'm just Saiyan.





Divell said:


> In dragon Ball heroes MUI you destroyed a character that SSJ4 Vegito count beat.


The hell you talking about?
Ssj4 xeno vegito defeated ssj3 cumber in the anime 
MUI Goku Only beated Base cumber
That’s not even going into how the anime and manga has very different idea on who’s superior to who and it being nothing but a promotional material to the games which doesn’t even agree with the shit


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## Kurou (Feb 9, 2019)

God Movement said:


> Elaborate.




I think what he means is mui is a form that draws out goku's latent power so he doesnt believe that its a transfornation that would be above any of the fusions since theyre already a multiplication of said internal power


Which I get his point but mui was about efficiency so theres still no way to compare them. But thats just my opinion


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## Divell (Feb 9, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> The hell you talking about?
> Ssj4 xeno vegito defeated ssj3 cumber in the anime
> MUI Goku Only beated Base cumber
> That’s not even going into how the anime and manga has very different idea on who’s superior to who and it being nothing but a promotional material to the games which doesn’t even agree with the shit


Yeah sorry it was SSJB Vegito who got his ads handed by Cumber.

And even if we take Canon is impossible to say who would be stronger than who.


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## Claudio Swiss (Feb 9, 2019)

Divell said:


> Yeah sorry it was SSJB Vegito who got his ads handed by Cumber.
> 
> And even if we take Canon is impossible to say who would be stronger than who.


I mean ssjb vegito  was beating ssj cumber in the game story  without ever using kk and in the manga ssjb kk vegito stalemated oozaru cumber in the manga so as i say different writers have different ideas on who's superior to who
And in canon not really considering the gains goku and vegeta got + fusion being broken as well
Nothing suggest that Ssjb gogeta wouldn't cave Mui goku skull in from the TOP


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## Divell (Feb 9, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> I mean ssjb vegito  was beating ssj cumber in the game story  without ever using kk and in the manga ssjb kk vegito stalemated oozaru cumber in the manga so as i say different writers have different ideas on who's superior to who
> And in canon not really considering the gains goku and vegeta got + fusion being broken as well
> Nothing suggest that Ssjb gogeta wouldn't cave Mui goku skull in from the TOP


Except for two thing ToP claims Jiren is a mortal that even a god of destruction can't defeat.

While in the movie, Broly was stated to be even stronger than Beerus.

Remember while Jiren was able to match MUI, it is still an extra power that is above even Goku's SSB Kaioken or Vegeta's SSB2. And Broly was beat by SSJB Gogeta. There is nothing to go from.

Jiren stomped SSB KAIOKEN. Broly went Hulk mode on a stronger (probably) Goku.


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## Darth Nihilus (Feb 10, 2019)

Hell in the canon material all UI did was piss Jiren off until the time limit ran out. He attained the form but he has not perfected it.


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## Adamant soul (Feb 10, 2019)

Darth Nihilus said:


> Hell in the canon material all UI did was piss Jiren off until the time limit ran out. He attained the form but he has not perfected it.



Well it also weakened Jiren to the point where even Frieza could take his attacks and was actually able to fight back.


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## Darth Nihilus (Feb 10, 2019)

Him taking Broly thrashing him without powering down from Golden is also a testament to his durability

I wouldn't be surprised if he does attain a new form in the near future


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## Divell (Feb 10, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> Well it also weakened Jiren to the point where even Frieza could take his attacks and was actually able to fight back.


And MUI depowered him enough for Freeza to then molest Jiren.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 10, 2019)

The Supreme God GODSPEED said:


> With all this being said I think it comes down to like one thing really. If full power ssj broly is more or less equal to limitbreaker jiren, then ssjbe gogeta should win the match against mui Goku fairly easily , simply because mui struggled more against a character of similar strength.



guys of that tier are garbage compared to a current Blue Fusion

Blue Evolution would be overkill so great that even 40k Orks would go DAAAAAAAMN


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## Gordo solos (Feb 10, 2019)

Who knows at this point

All we need to know is that they’re all stronger than Beerus


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 10, 2019)

The Supreme God GODSPEED said:


> But Godspeed ! That makes no fucking sense how could the power of an individual be stronger than said individual fused with someone else? Well angry obdier simply just make the mulitplier for MUI(AKA super Saiyan platnium) so high that even the fusion would still be weaker even with transformations (with the exception of a hypothetical mui fusion).



Because just omen allowed the much weaker Goku to walk trough Kefla and match Jiren.

Power is pointless if they can't hit him and he uses their own strength to trash them.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 10, 2019)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> he uses their own strength to trash them.



uh, when has this happened?

aside from maybe some fanfic you read 

you do remember that UIO's offense being ass was a big deal at one point and Goku had to compensate with a charged Kamehameha, right? what part of that is using their own strength against them?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 10, 2019)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> uh, when has this happened?
> 
> aside from maybe some fanfic you read
> 
> you do remember that UIO's offense being ass was a big deal at one point and Goku had to compensate with a charged Kamehameha, right? what part of that is using their own strength against them?



Is the only explanation for him being able to damage Jiren.

Either that or non MUI forms are just terrible at using their power effectively.

What i'm trying to say is that MUI  is mostly based in perfecting fighting skill instead of just more ki.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 10, 2019)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Is the only explanation for him being able to damage Jiren.
> 
> Either that or non MUI forms are just terrible at using their power effectively.



uh, in 129 it's explicitly said Goku was switching to offense and that's how he could do anything to Jiren

UI for Goku is just a blatant power-up



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> What i'm trying to say is that MUI  is mostly based in perfecting fighting skill instead of just more ki.



it's both more ki and fighting without thinking

otherwise UI wouldn't do shit to Jiren at his peak


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Feb 10, 2019)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> uh, in 129 it's explicitly said Goku was switching to offense and that's how he could do anything to Jiren
> 
> UI for Goku is just a blatant power-up



You are right, i'm mixing it with the manga.


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