# Fantastic Four vs Sensui Seven



## AceDick (Oct 5, 2011)

Reed, Susan, Johnny, Ben vs The Doctor, Seaman, Sniper, Gamemaster, Gourmet, Gatekeeper and Darkangel


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## Devil Kings (Oct 5, 2011)

Honestly man what is wrong with you? Alright, i'll play you're game.

Reed suffocate them. Give him prep, and he destroys all of YYH verse while on the toilet.

Johnny goes super nova.

Ben clobber all of them.

Susan bubble pops there brains.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Oct 5, 2011)

this is either a rape or raped for both teams depending on the ff version


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## Devil Kings (Oct 5, 2011)

A'm using comic FF.


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## AceDick (Oct 5, 2011)

Did I gave Reed prep? No. So stop bringing Reed with prep here. Its as annoying a people bringing 'Batman with prep' in Bat vs Cap threads where no prep time is mentioned.
Btw, Darkangel is Sensui


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Oct 5, 2011)

as if he'll even need prep


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## AceDick (Oct 5, 2011)

Massive Reed wank.
If you think Reed can solo S7, then EL OH EL.
Reed is too slow and can be easily BFRed.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 5, 2011)

not really much wank, he's one of the smartest people in marvel, and his team has the firepower to stalemate sensui until he inevitably works out a way to take them out (susan can also use her forcefields to destroy him internally, which would work for all of them really)

well he can't solo though, thousands of mountain-busting punches per second and all


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## AceDick (Oct 5, 2011)

Why are you mentioning his intelligence. No prep or equipment. Battle takes place in RoSaT.
Believe it or not Itsuki and certain territory users are prolly bigger threat than Sensui to F4.
Non violence field, virus manipulation, interdimensional imprisonment, immortality etc can really affect the outcome.
It will comedown to the speed difference though. How fast are the F4 members? I know Johnny is fast (though he may take time to accelerate to top speed) and Reed's brain works at superfast rate but what about the others?


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## Glued (Oct 5, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Why are you mentioning his intelligence. No prep or equipment. Battle takes place in RoSaT.
> Believe it or not Itsuki and certain territory users are prolly bigger threat than Sensui to F4.
> Non violence field, virus manipulation, interdimensional imprisonment, immortality etc can really affect the outcome.
> It will comedown to the speed difference though. How fast are the F4 members? I know Johnny is fast (though he may take time to accelerate to top speed) and Reed's brain works at superfast rate but what about the others?



Non-violence field, what is that?


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## AceDick (Oct 5, 2011)

Basically you can't use violence against Gamemaster.


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## Level7N00b (Oct 5, 2011)

Seaman, lol, is completely useless here. As is Gourmet.



Ben Grimm said:


> Non-violence field, what is that?



In Kaito's Territory, only words are used as weapons. Hiei pulled his sword on Kaito and tried to cut him in half, and a barrier protected Kaito and broke Hiei's sword, meaning Kaito does not throw it up himself, the Territory does, negating any sort of sneak attacks. And if you say a word he has rendered taboo, your soul is taken away. 

And in Game Master's Territory, you take on the role of video game characters, whoever wins the game gets out, and the fate of your character is what happens to the person who plays as them. Your own powers also cannot be used in Amanuma's Territory, as Hiei tried, and couldn't summon any fire.

Mind you, I don't care who wins this.


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## AceDick (Oct 5, 2011)

Well Seaman may attempt to trap them in his dimension. He will probably fail though. Lol. Gourmet/Toguro is the only dude that can survive getting blown to bits by Susan. Also telepathy


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## Level7N00b (Oct 5, 2011)

If this is the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, where is he going to get water from? He needs to mix it with is blood, and he really needs a lot of it for him to be dangerous. 

More blood = bigger monster. More water = the faster it spreads, according to Seaman. It needs to be raining for him at be at his best.


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## sonic546 (Oct 5, 2011)

What is this I don't even...


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## Physics Man (Oct 5, 2011)

inb4 lock. Anyone of the fantastic four can solo the sensui seven. The


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## Lucaniel (Oct 5, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Why are you mentioning his intelligence. No prep or equipment. Battle takes place in RoSaT.
> Believe it or not Itsuki and certain territory users are prolly bigger threat than Sensui to F4.
> Non violence field, virus manipulation, interdimensional imprisonment, immortality etc can really affect the outcome.
> It will comedown to the speed difference though. How fast are the F4 members? I know Johnny is fast (though he may take time to accelerate to top speed) and Reed's brain works at superfast rate but what about the others?



i'm mentioning his intelligence because working out their powers and countering them requires it? which he has in spades. believe it or not, intelligence counts in a battle even if you don't get prep.

and all of the members besides the one who negates violence and sensui would get soloed by being near human torch's nova flame, or would just get splattered by the forcefield, or by thing thunderclapping


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## Devil Kings (Oct 5, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> i'm mentioning his intelligence because working out their powers and countering them requires it? which he has in spades. believe it or not, intelligence counts in a battle even if you don't get prep.
> 
> and all of the members besides the one who negates violence and sensui would get soloed by being near human torch's nova flame, or would just get splattered by the forcefield, or by thing thunderclapping



You're seriously thinking Sensui, hell any YYH characters can survive Johnny's super nova flames.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 5, 2011)

'by being near', i said. the heat of a mountainbusting attack or hiei's flame thingy shouldn't be understimated. nevertheless, a hit from the nova flame would kill sensui same as anyone else.

i'm unsure about the game master though. might be a no-limit fallacy to assume his hax can override one, might be plausible. dunno


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## AceDick (Oct 5, 2011)

@L7
RoSaT has food and water. To be honest, I was assuming Seaman would get his water monster. Meh. Doesn't matter either way and don't care if he loses.
@Sonic and Physics man
GTFO.
@Luc
Gamemaster can try to protect them. Btw, Itsuki is mach 25+ and can BFR them in another dimension. Thats way I was asking for the speed of F4. Shinobu's aura can hurt Johnny and Susan unless Sue erects a forcefield. Overall it comes to who is faster. Gourmet's telepathy can be immensely helpful.
Btw, how do I +rep you?


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## Heavenly King (Oct 5, 2011)

lmao this kid.. oh man!!!


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## AceDick (Oct 5, 2011)

I like it when people who have no idea of what they are saying makes a joke of themselves
Edit: Just checked OBD wiki. I have a feeling F4's speed are downplayed or something. Johnny should be much faster than mach 5 no?
Oh well, going by the wiki, Itsuki dimension dumps them at mach 25+ speed. Thats faster than reaction time of all but Reed (who lacks the movement speed). Debunk this!


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## AceDick (Oct 5, 2011)

^notice how sonic is spamming images and nothing else? Its a common thread derailment tactic used by low tier 4chan trolls. The best way to counter it is to just report it. Ignoring won't make the troll go away.
Effectiveness: 4 out of 10
Btw, I won't report it. Don't worry


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## Lucaniel (Oct 5, 2011)

AceDick said:


> @L7
> RoSaT has food and water. To be honest, I was assuming Seaman would get his water monster. Meh. Doesn't matter either way and don't care if he loses.
> @Sonic and Physics man
> GTFO.
> ...



can you remind me of itsuki's speed feats? i didn't know this

and i'm not sure of their speed, i have to say. will try to find some feats. i also doubt it can in johnny's case - what's the strongest being his aura has hurt? and did it hurt him significantly?

i'd also be surprised if a premier marvel superhero team didn't have telepathy resistance feats, but i will check, again


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## AceDick (Oct 5, 2011)

Itsuki managed to trap the likes of Hiei (and I think Yusuke too temporarily). They are all mach 25+.
Johnny has no decent durability against physical attacks. Sensui's aura is muli-city block level at the least.
Edit: here are the profiles:
Link removed
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Not sure about the accuracy of their speeds though


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## Lucaniel (Oct 5, 2011)

that's johnny taking a hit from terminus and surviving. terminus is class 100 and was fighting with hercules for a while, as i recall. johnny's physical durability is actually quite high.

furthermore, can i see the context of this feat by itsuki? did he manage to trap them when they were moving at full speed, was it a surprise attack? etc.


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## Heavenly King (Oct 5, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> that's johnny taking a hit from terminus and surviving. terminus is class 100 and was fighting with hercules for a while, as i recall. johnny's physical durability is actually quite high.
> 
> furthermore, can i see the context of this feat by itsuki? did he manage to trap them when they were moving at full speed, was it a surprise attack? etc.



you beat me to it


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## sonic546 (Oct 5, 2011)

AceDick said:


> ^notice how sonic is spamming images and nothing else? Its a common thread derailment tactic used by low tier 4chan trolls. The best way to counter it is to just report it. Ignoring won't make the troll go away.
> Effectiveness: 4 out of 10
> Btw, I won't report it. Don't worry



The Fantastic Four have fought and held their own against foes like Doctor Doom, Hulk, and Marvel Godzilla.  Seriously, this is a pointless thread. It's obvious that the F4 stomp.  

+1 and inb4lock.


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## AceDick (Oct 5, 2011)

@Luc
batman
batman
Was that Johnny feat outlier or something. I dunno. Sorry not an F4 expert. Johnny did get hurt by Spidey level blows sometimes. How durable is Johnny? Class 100 would imply planet level or something... The wiki profiles should be updated then. They seem misleading as fuck.
Well if Itsuki is C class, he would be mach 7+, if low B, mach 16, if high B, mach 25+. 
@sonic
GTFO troll. You do understand that in most F4 battle, prep is involved. And futuristic gadgets.
Also lol at stomp.
Susan:
Sensui kills her before she can even react. So does Toguro or Itsuki
Thing:
Itsuki can BFR him. Else, Sensui flies up in the air and unleashes mountain busters.
Reed:
Difficult. Dunno if Itsuki can beat him. Sensui should if he fly high up in the air.
Johnny:
Depends on the speed. If he is only mach 5, he loses. Physical durability, it seems, is class 100.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 5, 2011)

being honest, i can't put a definitive cap on johnny's durability, but you can see it has its high end. i do think him being injured by spidey level blows is a hatful of arseholes, though, seeing as he regularly fights people like doom, namor, super-skrull, and so on. 

and that feat seems pretty clearly to be a surprise attack to me, they were all stationary and concerned about kuwabara, i doubt itsuki's ability to tag them or equivalently fast characters in the middle of combat.

also, i'm generally unsure about the speed issue (i do recall an old feat of susan playing ping-pong with lasers, but not sure how to interpret that one aimdodging wise - the lasers were stated to be attacking randomly, iirc. which would give her lightspeed reactions. so yeah), but susan's forcefields have taken blows from doom and namor, and thing can stalemate hulk from time to time

so in thing's case i highly, highly doubt sensui would kill him. if susan gets her fields up in time, sensui can't do all that much to them. reed is virtually immune to blunt force damage as far as this battle is concerned, he's tanked hits from namor before. mountainbusting energy blasts could do for him, ofc.


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## AceDick (Oct 5, 2011)

Are the attacks Johnny tanked physical or energetic/heat based etc?
Itsuki even being C class makes him mach 7 already. The way he managed to beat muliple B class, he should be low B at least. Susan need to well into hypersonic range to bring up her force fields before any B class or higher rips her apart.
That leaves Ben vulnerable. He can't tank a thousand mountain busters.
Sensui can fire reikoressuken at Reed.
About Johnny, I have no idea how durable he really is. I was just going by what I saw in comics and the OBD wiki profiles. Meh


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## Lucaniel (Oct 5, 2011)

from namor, it's all physical, from super-skrull, physical and heat-based, doom it could honestly be anything, but i would assume physical, maybe energy blasts or stuff like repulsors

and i wouldn't put it past ben to tank a thousand mountainbusters. like i said, he's stalemated the hulk before. he can hang well with class 100+ fighters.

as for sue's reactions, make of this what you will:

Link removed
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and if she does, indeed, get her shields up, sensui is done. here's her shield taking three blows from gladiator

Link removed


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## Lucaniel (Oct 5, 2011)

oh btw here's johnny keeping up with quicksilver for a bit

Link removed

and tagging silver surfer on his board

batman

(i should add for the purposes of honesty though, this is from that HORRIBLE issue where black panther somehow manages to armbar norrin, but this is a johnny feat, so yeah)


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## Ceria (Oct 5, 2011)

At first i thought you meant all of sensui's personalities, sensui would curbstomp especially with the sacred energy.


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## AceDick (Oct 5, 2011)

Well Johnny has a loss against Enel of all people. I thought it would he a good match against S7. Still, it depends on the speed.
About Sue, well didn't she bent Celestial armour or something?
I really don't think she is that fast though. The speed and durability of F4 should be discussed by OBDers. If what you say is true, the wiki is severely undermining them.
1000 mountain busters is a huge amount of energy output. Sure he can tank it? Hulk is not always in his super tough continent shaking mode. At base he is barely small mountain level. Ben can't survive against a non PIS highly enraged Hulk.
Here is the YYH feat thread if you are interested:


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## Lucaniel (Oct 5, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Well Johnny has a loss against Enel of all people. I thought it would he a good match against S7. Still, it depends on the speed.
> About Sue, well didn't she bent Celestial armour or something?
> I really don't think she is that fast though. The speed and durability of F4 should be discussed by OBDers. If what you say is true, the wiki is severely undermining them.
> 1000 mountain busters is a huge amount of energy output. Sure he can tank it? Hulk is not always in his super tough continent shaking mode. At base he is barely small mountain level. Ben can't survive against a non PIS highly enraged Hulk.
> Here is the YYH feat thread if you are interested:



he does? i'm somewhat surprised by that, and have (sadly) necroed it in order to see if people won't reconsider. regardless, you have two speedfeats which would allow him to easily tag any YYH character there

and yeah, sue messed with exitar's (?) armour somehow, yes

and you have a speedfeat of her messing with lasers right there, specified to be 'unpredictable', so i dunno about that. it does seem to be underestimating them, yes.

1000 of them is indeed huge, but considering the beatings thing has taken from people like champion (admittedly with CIS involved on his part, but still), namor, doom, etc. supplementing his performances against non-enraged hulk, i don't think it can put him down.

furthermore, where is that figure coming from? even base hulk is tougher than that, i'd say


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## AceDick (Oct 5, 2011)

OK then I will ask someone to update the wiki. You should ask Mike or someone to calc Johnny's speed. Pietro is not that. Atleast back then. Dunno how fast he is now.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 5, 2011)

I'm pretty sure Sue could beat anyone in YYH save Elder Toguro with brain bubble


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Well can she handle getting speedblitz before creating her force field?


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## ctype (Oct 6, 2011)

Starting distance is very important in this match. Fifty meters, I think that's the default distance, is a disadvantage for the Seven.

They need to be farther.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 6, 2011)

She's raised it before attacks from much faster enemies like Namor


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Well was he going at full speed? Btw, didn't she recently beat the fuck outta him? 
I was thinking about dimension dumping by Itsuki. You know, drag her down force field and all.
How fast is she anyway? Wiki says supersonic+. Kinda misleading.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 6, 2011)

That's not for reaction speed. She has reacted to people way faster than YYH characters.


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Well, it says reaction speeds
these rocks 
-these needs serious editing.
Itsuki can still BFR her unless she expands her forcfield for 10+ metres.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 6, 2011)

She's expanded it over entire cities before


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

OK so she can do it at high hypersonic speeds? Damn.
Well physical attacks and BFR seem ineffective then. Wonder if Game master hax will work.
Meh.
It seems if F4 wins, it will be because of her. Other three can be either BFRed or punched. How durable and fast is Johnny? I have seen him getting hurt by Spidey level punches


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## Endless Mike (Oct 6, 2011)

He's fast enough to break escape velocity at least


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> not really much wank, he's one of the smartest people in marvel, and his team has the firepower to stalemate sensui until he inevitably works out a way to take them out (susan can also use her forcefields to destroy him internally, which would work for all of them really)
> 
> well he can't solo though, thousands of mountain-busting punches per second and all



Ben Grimm is tough enough to take what ever Sensui dishes out and Sensui is not tough enough to take blows from Ben for very long.

Sensui should be fast enough to kill him


AceDick said:


> Well Seaman may attempt to trap them in his dimension. He will probably fail though. Lol. Gourmet/Toguro is the only dude that can survive getting blown to bits by Susan. Also telepathy



Ben thinks he's gonna thunder clap..and after that Johnny follows it with a fire blast.

Gormet has exactly enough time to shit his pants before being smeared into soup and completely vaporized 



AceDick said:


> Basically you can't use violence against Gamemaster.



all of these guys can get past his games minus maaaybe Sue Reed especially



AceDick said:


> Btw, Itsuki is mach 25+ and can BFR them in another dimension. Thats way I was asking for the speed of F4



Ben and Johnny should be more than fast enough to tag Sensui  and Sensui can't beat them



AceDick said:


> S*hinobu's aura can hurt Johnny and Susan unless Sue erects a forcefield. *Overall it comes to who is faster. Gourmet's telepathy can be immensely helpful.
> Btw, how do I +rep you?



what the fuck? Dude? no man why would you think that? about johnny at least and I have my doubts about Sue she's been around much stronger "battle auras" before and not assploded 



AceDick said:


> I like it when people who have no idea of what they are saying makes a joke of themselves
> Edit: Just checked OBD wiki. I have a feeling F4's speed are downplayed or something. Johnny should be much faster than mach 5 no?
> Oh well, going by the wiki, Itsuki dimension dumps them at mach 25+ speed. Thats faster than reaction time of all but Reed (who lacks the movement speed). Debunk this!



it seems incredibly slow..I'm also extremely skeptical of Itsuki's reaction time..due him having zero speed feats in the series that I know of



AceDick said:


> @Luc
> these rocks
> these rocks
> Was that Johnny feat outlier or something. I dunno. Sorry not an F4 expert. Johnny did get hurt by Spidey level blows sometimes. How durable is Johnny? Class 100 would imply planet level or something... The wiki profiles should be updated then. They seem misleading as fuck.
> ...



why are you going by the wiki so much and not actual feats?

I don't like the power scaling logic Itsuki for his part has zero speed feats trapping the heroes aside in a moment of PIS no less

also while Sonic's antics are crazy his rage is justified somewhat I mean the undertones of this thread are surprising although I think I'm totally misreading that


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 6, 2011)

I only skimmed through it today but God help you guys if the giant Dr. Doom that Johnny flew through in FF 1234 was empowered by the Prime Mover.


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Mach 34 then? This maybe faster than Sensui.
@IWD
In a Sensui vs Ben fight, Sensui can just fly a km above


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> @IWD
> In a Sensui vs Ben fight, Sensui can just fly a km above



so then Ben can sit there and wait for him to come back down or Thunder Clap (which might not hurt him too much but might get him down) or something

I mean he's never done the super jump but considering how much he weighs and how strong he is that shouldn't be an issue either i mean the man has caused localized tremors by stomping


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Sensui flies a few km up in the air. Ben can't jump that high.
Sensui can do shockwaves too. And reikoressuken. 
A few thousand mountain busters would majorly fuck up Ben if not kill him


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Sensui flies a few km up in the air. Ben can jump that high.



it's reasonable to assume based off his strength feats that he could but I do not recall him ever doing it on panel-I don't like speculation but this isn't very outland all things considered



AceDick said:


> Sensui can do shockwaves too.



his best shockwaves shown on panel aren't going to do much damage to him Ben's done similiar just grabbing Iron mans arm too hard




AceDick said:


> And reikoressuken.



would probably pop on his hide and he'd make a quip about it. on the bright side He's probably more closely going to agree with Sensuis fighting style than Yusuke



AceDick said:


> A few thousand mountain busters would majorly fuck up Ben if not kill him



boy am I glad ben isn't fighting John Byrne's Superman and is fighting Shinobu sensui whom I don't recall ever doing that on panel


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## Endless Mike (Oct 6, 2011)

Sensui could maybe fire off 1000 mountainbusters - if he had like a week


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Huh? Ben can't jump that high.
Sensui's shockwaves have destroyed about 30% of a km+ high plateau. His direct punches are stronger. He is mach 30 is something. He can easily throw dozens of mountain busters per second. It well established


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## Endless Mike (Oct 6, 2011)

Um, no, it's not. There was like one mountainbuster in that fight and it was a small mountain.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Huh? Ben can't jump that high.



why the hell not? Super jump isn't a super power it's just a product of being obscenely strong Ben is 



AceDick said:


> Sensui's shockwaves have destroyed about 30% of a km+ high plateau. His direct punches are stronger. He is mach 30 is something. He can easily throw dozens of mountain busters per second. It well established



umm no it isn't well established. His shockwave destroyed one plateau he then went on to level a small mountain with Yusuke's help

none of that equates to "hundreds of mountain busters per minute"


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

It was three and each were km+ high. Sensui is faster than Seiryu who can punch 100 times per second. He can punch a thousand full power punches at the least. Considering the damage he did with shockwave of his punch, direct punch would be mountain level easily

List of Sensui's feats


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## Endless Mike (Oct 6, 2011)

And the fact that if he throws lots of punches rapidly he would have less energy available for each one never crossed your mind?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> It was three and each were km+ high. Sensui is faster than Seiryu who can punch 100 times per second. He can punch a thousand full power punches at the least. Considering the damage he did with shockwave of his punch, direct punch would be mountain level easily
> 
> List of Sensui's feats



I see allot of ABC logic but not allot of actual feats. Sensui did not level thousands of mountains and it's highly unlikely that'd he'd be able to launch off more than a few blows against Ben

and Sensui *is not* surviving more then one or two punches from Ben

while I agree that's capable of launching off small mountain busters I'm not buying the sheer number nor his ability to maintain that level against such an enemy


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## Icyhell (Oct 6, 2011)

sensui solos


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Sensui would need to be pretty low for Ben to touch him. Ben cannot lay a single finger at him. Even if Ben can jump multiple kms high, Sensui will just move aside.
If your argument that Sensui would need a week to throw a thousand full power punches is true, he would need to charge 10 mins between each punch. Sensui is faster than that. You know it. He being mach 25+ would make him able to punch 6000 times in a sec. Even if we say that his full powered punches take 6000 times more chargetime, thats still one full powered punch per second


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Sensui would need to be pretty low for Ben to touch him. \



not so much so Ben can either AOE or jump up or simply out last him



AceDick said:


> Ben cannot lay a single finger at him. Even if Ben can jump multiple kms high, Sensui will just move aside.



Ben has reacted to the hulk and Namor and slapped ICBM's out of the air and the like..He can tag Sesnui just fine



AceDick said:


> If your argument that Sensui would need a week to throw a thousand full power punches is true, he would need to charge 10 mins between each punch. Sensui is faster than that. You know it. He being mach 25+ would make him able to punch 6000 times in a sec. Even if we say that his full powered punches take 6000 times more chargetime, thats still one full powered punch per second



I'm not disputing how many punches he can throw per second I'm calling bullshit on each one of them being a mountain buster I find that dubious..or that combined they can hurt some one who was not turned into a smoothie after gladiator landed a blood lusted gut shot right to Bens liver in an appreciated capacity to put him down.

Ben's too damn tough too fast and blows Sensuis stamina out of the water



Icyhell said:


> sensui solos



one liners?


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

All of Ben's speed would mean nothing when his opponent is multiple kms up in the air. Flight is a massive advantage. AOE of thunderclaps can't reach that high. ICBM's move in an almost straight and predictable motion towards its target. Its like this: I don't have to be as fast as the ball to hit it in a baseball game. They are what mach 20 at max? Sensui is faster. 
Sensui can keep fighting for a day at the least. Yusuke who was slightly weaker was running for 5 days at top speed. You sure Ben can keep tanking mounain busting attacks, reikoressuken, twisted twisters etc for a day. He can't touch Sensui after all. Gotta try to outlast him


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> All of Ben's speed would mean nothing when his opponent is multiple kms up in the air.



when he can get himself up there before Sensui can move then AOE or just plain  AOE at the start of the match and deprive Sensui of his ability to well..move very well not really




AceDick said:


> Flight is a massive advantage. AOE of thunderclaps can't reach that high. ICBM's move in an almost straight and predictable motion towards its target



they're omni-directional and they delivered by a guy who leveled something about the size of that mountain Yusuke and Sensui leveled by accident as a side effect of him gripping tony really hard- by some one strong enough to actually create a vortex powerful enough to suck a monster like Namor into..or punt him across the midwest

yeah  blood lusted T clap can get that far and the moment the shockwave hits Sensui he's falling out of the sky and right into an orange fist..again assuming Ben even allows it to get that far



AceDick said:


> . Its like this: I don't have to be as fast as the ball to hit it in a baseball game. They are what mach 20 at max? Sensui is faster.
> Sensui can keep fighting for a day at the least.



we have no idea how long Sensui can keep fighting for being terminally ill and all 



AceDick said:


> Yusuke who was slightly weaker was running for 5 days at top speed.



Yusuke also wasn't dying 




AceDick said:


> You sure Ben can keep tanking mounain busting attacks, reikoressuken, twisted twisters etc for a day.



not that Ben has too and you haven't proven Sensui can keep that level up for more than a few hours but given that he took a beating from the UC was able to live through a blood lusted blow from gladiator and stand despite severe internal injuries and that He's taken blows from the likes of WWH with out being smeared I'm very confident in Things durability Sensui isn't hurting him enough to lame him before Sensui gets smashed



AceDick said:


> *He can't touch Sensui after all.* Gotta try to outlast him



you actually have not proven that at all, Sensui is not flying into the air when the bell rings not before Ben can AOE his ass..He's reacted to Hulk and Namor and even if he does get into the air Ben getting up there and ending him or AOE'ing him with enough force to actually create vacuum that can drag Namor back..in water no less and he's not staying air born at all


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Sensui is mach 30 at the least. He needs less than 0.3 seconds to reach 3 kms. Starting distance is 30m. Ben is nowhere near mach 30. Thats 10.2 km in a second. Prove that Ben is that fast. Thunderclap won't reach that high if its omnidirectional and Sensui can just dodge it anyway.
Sensui, even after being ill, *had higher energy reserve than Yusuke*. So the point is moot. Heck he still had a month to live. We are not using a hypothetical Sensui prime as we have no idea how strong he was.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Sensui is mach 30 at the least. He needs less than 0.0003 seconds to reach 3 kms. Starting distance is 30m. Ben is nowhere near mach 30.



nonsense if he can tag the Hulk and Namor then Sensui chump change speed wise



AceDick said:


> Thats 10.2 km in a second. Prove that Ben is that fast. Thunderclap won't reach that high if its omnidirectional and Sensui can just dodge it anyway.



questioning the guys speed when He's been brawling the Hulk for what? Four decades?

He's reacted to Namor as well and with his durability and damage soak it hardly matters Sensui isn't putting Ben down but all Ben really needs to is clap really hard in Sensuis general direction to end this

you're also failing to grasp just how powerful a thunder clap from Ben would be considering some of his higher strength feats suggesting the force wouldn't travel for miles is kinda out there



AceDick said:


> Sensui, even after being ill, *had higher energy reserve than Yusuke*. So the point is moot. Heck he still had a month to live.



so what? This is abc logic it leaves out specifics chiefly Sensuis poor health you have no clue how long he can maintain his maximum power and anything less is going to kill him



AceDick said:


> We are not using a hypothetical Sensui prime as we have no idea how strong he was.



ya think?


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

And was Hulk or Namor going at full speed or anywhere mach 30+?
Even if we assume the thunderclap can reach multi kms up in the air without weakening, Sensui will just dodge them. Easily.
Sensui had higher energy reserves than Yusuke. That means higher Stamina. This is a valid in-universe powerscaling for YYH.
ABC logic:
Sensui can beat Kuwabara. Kuwabara can beat Accelerator. So, Sensui can beat Accel.
Or
X is mach 10. Y is faster. Z speedblitz Y. Z is mach 90.
I am using neither. Valid powerscaling is, as per OBD rules, allowed.


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## Devil Kings (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> And was Hulk or Namor going at full speed or anywhere mach 30+?
> Even if we assume the thunderclap can reach multi kms up in the air without weakening, Sensui will just dodge them. Easily.
> Sensui had higher energy reserves than Yusuke. That means higher Stamina. This is a valid in-universe powerscaling for YYH.
> ABC logic:
> ...



You're wrong on so many levels.

Sue gives everyone a fucking stroke.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> And was Hulk or Namor going at full speed or anywhere mach 30+?



it's hard to tell with hulk due to his speed depending on how powered up he is but i doubt that even in base form he'd be below hypersonic. As for Namor the guy generally operates as 'take you down hard because I'm a jerk" near blood lust while he is above Ben of course stat wise..and will always inevitably fuck his ass up barring luck or PIS I have an extremely hard time buying him punching at a slow pokes pace



AceDick said:


> Even if we assume the thunderclap can reach multi kms up in the air without weakening, Sensui will just dodge them. Easily.



how do you dodge an AOE like that especially when the enemy is going to be delivering it right off the bat faster than Sensui can get completely to a safe distance



AceDick said:


> Sensui had higher energy reserves than Yusuke. That means higher Stamina. This is a valid in-universe powerscaling for YYH.



fundamental details that are critical or unique to a character: powerscaling is invalid as hell when it completely ignores this: Sensui's a terminally ill man not a teen ager in the prime of his life..you cannot scale when it ignore critical details..or rather you can but your findings are probably going to be dismissed.



AceDick said:


> I am using neither. Valid powerscaling is, as per OBD rules, allowed.



powerscaling is valid when it does not ignore details or traits unique to that character or character at which point I have every right to dismiss your scaling and will continue to do so due to Sensuis condition and the sweeping generalization I'm seeing here and the dismissal of the characters condition


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Elder Toguro says hi. There goes 'everyone'. Also GTFO with shitty one liner


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Elder Toguro says hi. There goes 'everyone'. Also GTFO with shitty one liner



that's Devil Kings for you

Sue probably can't kill ET I agree but I think johnny can..that is I'm not sure toguro can regenerate from being a shadow etched on the floor of the ROSAT..unless I missed something..that dude was kinda broken


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

@IWD
Stamina isn't a unique power. It was stated, shown, proven that higher PL equates higher stamina
AOE can be dodged by going outta its range


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> @IWD
> Stamina isn't a unique power. It was stated, shown, proven that higher PL equates higher stamina



and when a character has an outside factor heavily influencing everything he does this factor cannot be ignored. having allot of Chi does not let you ignore physical frailties at least not too such a dramatic extent. this was proven in the previous arc




AceDick said:


> AOE can be dodged by going outta its range



Bell rings - in a fraction of that second Sensui moves to GTFO so he napalm Ben from high altitude Ben's already moved his hands from his sides together out in front of them..Sensui scoots out say a hundred meters before some one as fast as Ben claps (I'm being generous here)

with blood lust (because normally Ben does not smear people with T claps he isn't a viltrumite here) Sensui *should be effected enough* for Ben to close the gap and nail him

but assuming your right (and I really don't buy Shinobu easily blitzing Ben)He just go make himself a turkey sandwitch inside the kitchen then wait for Sensui to get tired enough to land..Sensui certainly can't hurt him enough to do more then really piss him off..and even if he does get past his massive durability..his damage soak is well frankly it's fucking stupid at times

Ben can run away and dodge and wait for cancer man to come to him *this is again assuming it even get's that far*


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Let me explain this:
If I say that Sensui can cut dimensions because weaker being like Kuwabara can, it wrong as its an exclusive power.
If I say that Sensui has higher stamina than A class dudes, its true because, as per YYH logic, there is a corelation between stamina and energy reserve in YYH. They are directly proportional to each other. This is a valid relation in YYH.
When A class beings can go at max speed for days, its ridiculous to say that Sensui can't last a day.
You do understand that Sensui can dodge too. He doesn't need to come close to Ben. His unidirectional shockwaves, reikoressukens and twisted twisters have long range.
We still haven't established how fast Ben is. Wiki list him as superhuman. I know he is much faster than that but we need serious feats/calcs to confirm if he is mach 30 or something.
Sensui needs 0.6 seconds to fly down, hit Ben and go 3 km up.


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## Tranquil Fury (Oct 6, 2011)

Ben Grimm is class 80 to 90, considering class 100 is guys like Hulk, Heralds, Thor, Juggernaut etc that's not bad(but the gap between mountain/Island and planet/world breaker strengths is huge). Susan can project a forcefield into their brains which can kill anyone outside guys like Elder Toguro, Johnny has an attack that will kill any of them in his nova flame and Reed makes Kurama look like a baby in intelligence so he'll be dangerous, factor in that they can work as a team and they'll have good odds of winning this.

Now it comes down to the issue of their speed and durability, Ben can tank attacks from S class demons atleast since those are within his class range so that's one character whose only worry is speed.


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Hence I used hax characters:
Virus manipulator
Immortal telepath
Dimension dumper
Violence nullifier + reality warper
And I agree that speed will be the factor. Depending on Ben's top speed he may get BFRed.


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## Devil Kings (Oct 6, 2011)

The fact that anyone is actually arguing for the YYH sides, or thinking anyone from the YYH sides can actually beat the FF, are fucking high.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Hence I used hax characters:
> Virus manipulator
> Immortal telepath
> Dimension dumper
> ...



while i can understand the rationale, most of the characters used don't even have the durability to survive a thunderclap or being near johnny's nova flames, or sue's forcefields

and i've provided various feats, including speed ones for johnny and sue that show they're fast enough to not be getting blitzed here, and indeed fast enough to kill this bunch. sensui himself will get taken down by a nova flame hit, or a punch from thing, or internal destruction.

so i'm pretty sure i've made a good case for the F4 winning


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Durability:
Were Hulk and Glad at high rage/ high confidence mode when dealing with Ben? Its obvious they weren't going all out. The difference is class shows this.
Johnny colliding against a class 100 being is not a durability feat if said being didn't utilise his full power.
I won't even bother with the Norrin vs Johnny bit.
Sue's reaction speed and how fast she can expand her barrier is important. Even if we say that Itsuki is only C class (he should be higher), that still means Sue's speed should be higher than mach 7 to not get BFRed with or without her barrier (assuming she doesn't get enough time to expand it in 3+ metre radius which is bigger than what Itsuki has shown on panel to BFR)
With Sensui she gets 0.003 seconds before getting blitz.
Reed can tank physical attacks but what about BFR or energy based attacks?


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## Glued (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Durability:
> Were Hulk and Glad at high rage/ high confidence mode when dealing with Ben? Its obvious they weren't going all out. The difference is class shows this.
> Johnny colliding against a class 100 being is not a durability feat if said being didn't utilise his full power.
> I won't even bother with the Norrin vs Johnny bit.
> ...



Ben has tanked multiple mountain busting punches from the Universal Champion. He doesn't have the durability to withstand Hulk or Glads at full power. The Champion is a planet buster, but I doubt he was using his full power on Ben. Ben also tanked attacks from an Asteroid buster, Blastaar.

Sue has the ability to react to Thor's Lightning. She can even contain a nuclear explosion in mid explosion. Her reactions are incredible.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

i don't see why terminus wouldn't be using his full power, he was a villain trying to kill his opposition 

and glad at the time was pretty confident. when he hasn't been confident, he's been markedly weaker and it's been pointed out, like the time he whaled on 'reed' to no effect thank to some illusion hijinks. 

hulk has occasionally been pretty angry dealing with thing. not world war levels, but this isn't a case of ben brushing off some kittenish pats from him. they've had serious bouts. he would die to an enraged hulk, but hulk doesn't need to be enraged to be stronger than anyone from YYH.



> I won't even bother with the Norrin vs Johnny bit.



er?

it's a feat. 



> Sue's reaction speed and how fast she can expand her barrier is important. Even if we say that Itsuki is only C class (he should be higher), that still means Sue's speed should be higher than mach 7 to not get BFRed with or without her barrier (assuming she doesn't get enough time to expand it in 3+ metre radius which is bigger than what Itsuki has shown on panel to BFR)



i've shown you her toying with lasers...



> Reed can tank physical attacks but what about BFR or energy based attacks?



physical and energy based attacks are both made of kinetic energy, and reed's taking class 100 blows from namor persuades me he can tank much of what sensui can dish out, though maybe not a full power mountainbusting blast

he can't tank bfr, obviously, but considering itsuki and everybody who isn't sensui would die right off the bat, i don't see the problem


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

It comes to whether Sue brings up her force field in time. This will decide the outcome. She gets 0.003 seconds.
The thing with laser is that in fiction they are hardly moving at c. They are also visible.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

even if she can't, thing and johnny could still kill the entire team

and - lasers _are_ visible. that doesn't discredit it by any means. and there are lasers in a futuristic lab setting. you have to prove that there's reasonable doubt of them moving at c, you can't just assume they aren't on the basis of generalisation


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Burden of proof is on you to show that they are moving at c. Lasers are invisible btw.
Oh and read this:
[DLMURL]Link removed
Ben would have to be faster than mach 7 to not get blitz. He is also never touching Sensui because of flight.
Johnny's speed and rate of acceleration are important points and nobody has provided any concrete numbers. Him tagging Norrin doesn't count because its SMvFL.
F4 really needs some number crunching in terms of speed.
I will be honest. I only made this thread after reading the wiki profiles and thinking it would be a good match and not a stomp.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> and glad at the time was pretty confident. when he hasn't been confident, he's been markedly weaker and it's been pointed out, like the time he whaled on 'reed' to no effect thank to some illusion hijinks.


\

he was more than Confident he showed up with the intention to slaughter the FF and basically did just that he blew Johnny out like he was blowing out a birthday candle and then punched Ben with a murder you blow that put him very close to death- Ben through sheer force of will was able to stagger back up

but gladz wasn't holding back Ben's always had very good durability and his damage soak always seems like it's in a class higher than the rest of him. which allows him to survive fights with class 100's he's tough and he can take a beating

oh and for the record because poor Gladz get's really underestimated: there's two 'low confidence gladiator incarnations"

there's low confidence gladz 

Who despite knowing how screwed he is after just watching BRB get pwned turn around and eat a head shot from tyrant and then stalemate the guys energy beams..basically out showing every one there but surfer and Thanos who did much better then him (especially thanos)

and emo Gladiator who is forced to fight for Vulcan betray everything he believes in but is still monstrous enough to tank a blow that tears a whole in the universe IIRC when it killed an omega level

who's power gets reduced drastically but still needs a guy like Hulk to bring down even when exposed to a specific type of energy that weakens him

then there's "exaggerated low confidence gladz"
who gets punked by class 90's and canonball and Reed



Lucaniel said:


> hulk has occasionally been pretty angry dealing with thing. not world war levels, but this isn't a case of ben brushing off some kittenish pats from him. they've had serious bouts. he would die to an enraged hulk, but hulk doesn't need to be enraged to be stronger than anyone from YYH.



they've had some pretty brutal brawls from what I recall



AceDick said:


> Durability:
> Were Hulk and Glad at high rage/ high confidence mode when dealing with Ben? Its obvious they weren't going all out. The difference is class shows this.



not especially thing's always been tougher than he was strong and he's plenty of both and Gladz pretty much turned his internal organs into putty..the feat is that he wasn't popped like a Balloon invincible style

if Gladz hit Sensui the same way He'd either be juice or pure' 

still not buying Itsuki's speed feats due to lack of any on panel



AceDick said:


> You do understand that Sensui can dodge too. He doesn't need to come close to Ben. His unidirectional shockwaves, reikoressukens and twisted twisters have long range.



I understand that a healthy S class can fight for days even when exhausted but that dying ones who aren't Raizen not so much 

Sensui hasn't shown any impressive stamina as for his attacks I don't see them harming Ben enough to disable him you'd be pretty hard pressed to convince me he hits harder then the Champ and gladz and even base hulk



AceDick said:


> Burden of proof is on you to show that they are moving at c. Lasers are invisible btw.



the burden of proof is on you to prove they aren't real lasers actually he's presenting the feat your the one calling bullshit on it


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

that's a complete inversion of burden of proof. i've proved that sue can mess with lasers. it's axiomatic that lasers move at lightspeed unless otherwise *dis*proven. in fact, burden of proof is on _you_ to prove they _don't_ move at c.

she could see the lasers because they were firing directly at her, as you can see in the second scan. seeing as it would look strange for tigra and sue to be drawn dodging nothing, there is rationale for drawing the lasers as visible. the setting supports their being real lasers.



> Him tagging Norrin doesn't count because its SMvFL.



no, it isn't. spider-man actually KOed firelord. johnny's blast there clearly did nothing to norrin. their relative power is not being ignored. it's a feat of him tagging norrin. not at full acceleration, but at combat speed, and norrin is still FTL.



> Ben would have to be faster than mach 7 to not get blitz. He is also never touching Sensui because of flight.



thunderclaps are omnidirectional.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

they're omni-directional and I doubt Sensui can travel far any ways before he claps one off..if not move at all before


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

@Luc
[DLMURL]Link removed
-as stated in this, three factors determine if its real laser. 
I was talking about the speed part of Norrin vs Johnny. That wasn't FTL moving Norrin, that was 'Black Panther made a mockery of me' Norrin. Him going FTL in that part is doubtful.
Are you implying omnidirectional attacks can't be dodged?
Also don't bring artist's intention into this. We are going by SOD method


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Oct 6, 2011)

an omnidirectional attack is an attack that goes in all directions


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> @Luc
> [DLMURL]Link removed
> -as stated in this, three factors determine if its real laser.
> I was talking about the speed part of Norrin vs Johnny. That wasn't FTL moving Norrin, that was 'Black Panther made a mockery of me' Norrin. Him going FTL in that part is doubtful.
> ...



those are guidelines, not absolute rules. and one of them (visibility) can be rationalised, and it is supported by the other one (plausible setting). 

the strength he was depicted at there has no relevance to his speed, and him tanking a nova blast suggests that this wasn't some insanely weakened norrin, the armbar was just an anomalous incident of extreme writer stupidity.

yes, i am.

there's no question of 'intention', this is simple logic. the lasers are drawn as visible because they would look ridiculous if they weren't. proven lightspeed lasers in comics are drawn as visible because otherwise the audience would have no idea what was happening


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

So? Doesn't mean it can keep going in all direction infinitely. Just fly a couple of kms up in the air. No thunderclap shockwave can reach it. Omnidirectional attacks has another disadvantage in massive wastage of energy


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Are you implying omnidirectional attacks can't be dodged?
> Also don't bring artist's intention into this. We are going by SOD method



Yes

it's one of the reasons why Sentry pre jesus power up was so dangerous and why so many people hated putting him against quality characters; Sure superman and SBP were faster than him but his AOE's were capable of easily expanding to planet sized and were capable of leveling multiple worlds

obvious Ben's not nearly that potent but straight up; a blood lusted thunderclap from that guy should go 360 and be beyond Sensuis ability to escape



AceDick said:


> So? Doesn't mean it can keep going in all direction infinitely. Just fly a couple of kms up in the air. No thunderclap shockwave can reach it. Omnidirectional attacks has another disadvantage in massive wastage of energy



your basis for this seems to be wishful thinking though


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Oct 6, 2011)

you either overpower it or tank it


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

@Luc
They aren't real lasers because they are visible. Now if they were said to be moving at c or were calced to be moving at c, we can ignore the first point. Otherwise, we cannot.
If it looks like a pig, its not a man unless stated by the author.
The artist intent has zero value in the SOD approach. We treat the event as the retelling of an actual event. In universe logic is applied. How do you know what the artist intented? Don't generalise because I can say that generally lasers aren't c. Tell me exactly what the artist intented. Interview? Statement? Anything.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> @Luc
> They aren't real lasers because they are visible. Now if they were said to be moving at c or were calced to be moving at c, we can ignore the first point. Otherwise, we cannot.
> If it looks like a pig, its not a man unless stated by the author.
> The artist intent has zero value in the SOD approach. We treat the event as the retelling of an actual event. In universe logic is applied. How do you know what the artist intented? Don't generalise because I can say that generally lasers aren't c. Tell me exactly what the artist intented. Interview? Statement? Anything.



you're really missing the point

the lasers are drawn as visible because the scene wouldn't make any sense if the reader couldn't see what the characters were dodging

stop acting like i'm putting forward some obscure appeal to authorial intent here, this is just plain common sense


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Kirihara's logic
If Ben makes a shockwave and the opponent is 10000 kms away or even in another planet, it would reach him. He had to tank or overpower it.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> @Luc
> They aren't real lasers because they are visible. Now if they were said to be moving at c or were calced to be moving at c, we can ignore the first point. Otherwise, we cannot.



yeah lasers are always drawn in fiction that does not make them not lasers




AceDick said:


> If it looks like a pig, its not a man unless stated by the author.



you seriously believe word of god has more validity then what's on paper? last year we had a pretty good debate about that in the meta..suffice to say what's happening on panel is superior 



AceDick said:


> The artist intent has zero value in the SOD approach. We treat the event as the retelling of an actual event. In universe logic is applied. How do you know what the artist intented? Don't generalise because I can say that generally lasers aren't c. Tell me exactly what the artist intented. Interview? Statement? Anything.



author intent means very little but what's shown on panel has enormous value and what's shown on panel are lasers..you can't just dismiss them because a comic book writer decided to give scientific accuracy the middle finger..they do it all the time some of them as a fuck you to fans no less



AceDick said:


> Kirihara's logic
> If Ben makes a shockwave and the opponent is 10000 kms away or even in another planet, it would reach him. He had to tank or overpower it.



ermm no that's not his logic at all don't twist a mans post. What he's saying in the context of the fight at hand the ROSAT Sensui has no possible means of moving..and in most cases any ways characters rarely have the advantage of escaping an AOE by flying to another planet..or moving a thousand KM's 

they usually are out or dead before then


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Oct 6, 2011)

how stupid can you be
I guess sensui's only bet is his reiko resshuken since his shockwaves will most likely not hit ben


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Common sense is a mix of appeal to tradition and popularity.
Lets see:
Out of the three methods of determining if a laser is c, Sue's laser dodging feat doesn't satisfy a single one.
Thus, we can conclude that the lasers weren't c. They didn't demonstrate real laser property for crying out loud. Your argument: 'the lasers were c because *I think* the artist wanted them to be c although I have no proof about his intentions'
We go by SOD method. There is no artist intent. Visual evidence proves that it doesn't fuction like real laser. No statements or calcs contradict this either.
I have seen this argument a hundred time while lurking SDN. The counters are always the same. This is no exception. Heck ask Mike. Not appealing to authority just that he seem like a knowledgeable dude


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Oct 6, 2011)

if that's the case then ueki characters aren't  relativistic dude


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

@IWD
[DLMURL]Link removed
-Read This.
Avoiding AOE is as easy as going outta its range. Ben's shockwaves have a range of a few km radius. Get outta that radius and you are safe. Sensui is fast enough to do it. Easily.
@Kirihara
Your question is loaded


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## Glued (Oct 6, 2011)

What the hell you guys talking about, Ben's most powerful thunderclap to my memory only knocked out Magneto, who was only a few yards away.

He really doesn't use it often.

His best jump was about 250 meters


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Ueki characters dodged lasers that were stated to be c. Same with Cars. It was stated to be UV which moves at c. No such shit happened here.
[DLMURL]Link removed
-Read


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

and with this AceDick is attempted invalidate about 45% of all feats from mid tiers and top street level guys

this is..bullshit frankly complete and total bullshit- you can use science to analyze a feat you cannot how ever abuse it and demand fiction adhere to reality nor can you dismiss canon with it unless it's massively outrageous

I hope you never get into a toon force debate


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Common sense is a mix of appeal to tradition and popularity.
> Lets see:
> Out of the three methods of determining if a laser is c, Sue's laser dodging feat doesn't satisfy a single one.
> Thus, we can conclude that the lasers weren't c. They didn't demonstrate real laser property for crying out loud. Your argument: 'the lasers were c because *I think* the artist wanted them to be c although I have no proof about his intentions'
> ...



i'm sorry, would you prefer me to call it logic? okay. this is just logic

furthermore, it does satisfy them, it is in a futuristic setting, it is _called_ a laser. that's already two. 

the only real laser property they haven't demonstrated is being drawn as visible, which there are logical reasons for

you can be obtuse about it if you like, but pretending that an artist identifying something as a laser does not imply lightspeed when lasers are made of light, is the truly ridiculous thing. you simply want it all spelled out. when in fact it makes sense for a laser to be lightspeed, especially in a science fiction setting.

as for proof of the artist's intentions, this beggars belief. if the artist calls them lasers, that means they are lasers. in a sci-fi context, the chances of their exhibiting laser-like properties are very high. furthermore, they travel in straight beams, just like lasers

there is ample evidence to say they are lasers. _you_ have to prove they don't move at c.

i'm also finding it contradictory that you keep saying 'we go by SOD' when suspension of disbelief, by definition, involves some level of discrimination when looking at proceedings and not trying to find every inconsistency, especially when it can be logically explained, as proof of invalidity. what you're doing isn't suspending disbelief, it's nitpicking

in fact, this is pretty much like saying that because two characters fighting in space are exchanging taunts, they aren't actually in space, because they can hear each other


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Toon force is reality warping.
My argument is based on this article by Mike:
[DLMURL]Link removed
Ask him. He will agree. Had this 'a laser is c unless proven otherwise' argument used at SDN, it would have been destroyed


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> @IWD
> [DLMURL]Link removed
> -Read This.
> Avoiding AOE is as easy as going outta its range. Ben's shockwaves have a range of a few km radius. Get outta that radius and you are safe. Sensui is fast enough to do it. Easily



you haven't proven Sensuis fast enough at all hell you haven't proven he's faster then Ben- this isn't even arguing any more this is just adhering to your POV even after you've been presented by a dedicated opposition who seems to know more then you about the fiction at hand

I wonder how far your going to SDN's SOD methodology though because I've seen people who grab it off their site and abuse it like this try and use it to invalidate Supermans FTL and all

go look up pencil if you want a really outrageous example



Ben Grimm said:


> What the hell you guys talking about, Ben's most powerful thunderclap to my memory only knocked out Magneto, who was only a few yards away.
> 
> He really doesn't use it often.
> 
> His best jump was about 250 meters




man if he's KOing magneto any claims to his inability to effect Sensui is bunk of the highest order of magnitude possible


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Straight from Wong's mouth:

Atleast read the important bits


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## Glued (Oct 6, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> you haven't proven Sensuis fast enough at all hell you haven't proven he's faster then Ben- this isn't even arguing any more this is just adhering to your POV even after you've been presented by a dedicated opposition who seems to know more then you about the fiction at hand
> 
> I wonder how far your going to SDN's SOD methodology though because I've seen people who grab it off their site and abuse it like this try and use it to invalidate Supermans FTL and all
> 
> ...



What is Sensui's durability?


----------



## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

enough with the constantly appealing to SD.net or wong or EM or the wiki's guidelines

this is a specific argument about a specific incident and trying to apply intentionally universal guidelines to it is not valid

there is a logical reason the lasers are drawn as visible which you are trying to strawman as me claiming authorial intention. the lasers are stated to be such, exhibit the properties of lasers and are in a sci-fi setting

it's up to you to prove they aren't lightspeed


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Straight from Wong's mouth:
> 
> Atleast read the important bits



you think I'm not familiar with their methodology? really?

that isn't the issue any ways it's your application of it we all find border line well..you know



AceDick said:


> Toon force is reality warping.
> My argument is based on this article by Mike:
> [DLMURL]Link removed
> Ask him. He will agree. Had this 'a laser is c unless proven otherwise' argument used at SDN, it would have been destroyed



I've been debating with EM for a long time though I can't recall an instance when we've disagreed in any major way we've been in spiderman threads together and he's never sought to invalidate his aim dodging lasers on the basis of them being red glowy things that zip past you- perhaps He's never felt inclined to do so because the opposition is usually Naruto or Sasuke but I doubt he's biased like that.

I'll also add I can't speak for EM but if I was in his place I would hate to think my analysis and essay's and views are being used a crutch to substitute for a properly mustered argument. I'd appreciate the admiration but this isn't the way to go about it

although it's nice to know EM has a fan for once so many people seem to hate him

I think what you are doing is abusing SOD why aren't you applying it YYH as harshly as you are the opposing side the few SDN'ers I used to know that knew anything about anime reviled the use of power scaling in an extreme specifically because it ignored all the variables that go into the outcome of a fight


----------



## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Lasers in most fictions are actually DEWs


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Lasers in most fictions are actually DEWs



you aren't even debating any more at this point just copy pasta'ing

not good man


----------



## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

@Ben
Mountain level+


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

more links to what other people have to say about it?


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

Ben Grimm said:


> What is Sensui's durability?



small mountain level maybe mountain Sensui got taken out by something that leveled a few hundred to a thousand acres of forest but probably wouldn't have say punted him across a country

Ben and Simon could tank it..piotr probably as well



Lucaniel said:


> more links to what other people have to say about it?



I mean the sites are pretty good but all the same i don't think that's how that method of debate was intended to be used


----------



## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Genetic fallacy.
Anyway, I can make a metadome thread to make a common outcome about how to determine the speed of lasers. If you don't take my argument or EM or SDN, surely you would take the opinion of the obd wiki. Not appealing to popularity so don't bring it


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

@Ben and IWD
It took this to fatally wound Sensui

- thats probably in the gigaton range


----------



## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Genetic fallacy.
> Anyway, I can make a metadome thread to make a common outcome about how to determine the speed of lasers. If you don't take my argument or EM or SDN, surely you would take the opinion of the obd wiki. Not appealing to popularity so don't bring it



that's not a genetic fallacy at all

i'm asking you to debate on your merit, not use what other people have to say about _other_ situations which is only vaguely applicable to this one. a genetic fallacy would be 'this is from SD.net, therefore it's wrong'

and if we're calling each other out on fallacies like pencil, you've been abusing the appeal to authority and strawman for a while now

there is no 'common outcome' required when each claim can be debated on its individual merit

stop trying to obtain a generalised judgment like it will help your specific case. i've reasonable evidence for the laser shown being lightspeed. your sole contradiction can be logically disregarded


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Genetic fallacy.
> Anyway, I can make a metadome thread to make a common outcome about how to determine the speed of lasers. If you don't take my argument or EM or SDN, surely you would take the opinion of the obd wiki. Not appealing to popularity so don't bring it



you're abusing fallacies yourself there buddy and what's the point of making a thread in the meta? are you seriously believing your going to get this forum to invalidate a sizeable portion of multiple fictions feats just because "Red flashy lights instead of nothing" what happens when an author says 'fuck you science I'm telling a story" are we to dissect and dismiss his views?

this while not as bad is vaguely reminiscent of Zorlon over on Sb claiming the USS enterprise can kill Superman because Anti matter according to science should be able to bypass his durability effortlessly..or it's literally impossibly for some one his side to be able to smash apart a moon or endanger planets

it didn't really work when applied like that and it does not really seem right here

your being overzealous my advice to you is spend more time lurking here on how this method is applied before you start trying to downgrade a chunk of the roster this forum uses


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

What 'logically discarded'?
There is nothing logical about speculations about an artists intent in an objective debate when inuniverse reasoning would show that its not a real laser and thus not moving at c. I thought the OBD got over this 'all fictional beams move at c' argument.
Lets recap:
It doesn't fuction like a laser. Check
It wasn't stated to be c. Check
It wasn't calced to be c. Check
So, why do you call it c? Because you think the artist intented it to be c without proof. Lets not bring artist intention in here. Togashi intended lots of things we don't use.
Fictional lasers are hardly moving at c. This is true for the huge majority. They are mostly DEWs. Captain America dodged lasers. So did Spidey.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> What 'logically discarded'?
> There is nothing logical about speculations about an artists intent in an objective debate when inuniverse reasoning would show that its not a real laser and thus not moving at c. I thought the OBD got over this 'all fictional beams move at c' argument.
> Lets recap:
> It doesn't fuction like a laser. Check
> ...



strawman with the 'speculations about an artists intent' again. i've made no such speculations. i've simply said that the lasers are drawn so the reader understands what is happening. that is logical.

it does function like a laser - it moves in straight lines and can be deflected
it was stated to be a laser - c is implied
nitpick - check

assuming the artist intended it to be c when he called it a laser, and lasers _are_ c, is a logical assumption

and this isn't true. those examples are also, in the 'huge majority', down to aim-dodging

you haven't provided a concrete reason for why the laser shouldn't move at c.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> What 'logically discarded'?
> There is nothing logical about speculations about an artists intent in an objective debate when inuniverse reasoning would show that its not a real laser and thus not moving at c. I thought the OBD got over this 'all fictional beams move at c' argument.
> Lets recap:
> It doesn't fuction like a laser. Check
> ...



no one here is speculation about artist intent we're simply saying 'it does not fucking matter a laser is a laser unless it's painfully obvious it isn't " being visible does not debunk them being lasers at all that is how they are portrayed for the sake of the readers and should not be beholden to such standards unless the scene in question is fishy in which case by all means nit pick away but this isn't one of them

like I said your committing an abuse.


----------



## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> strawman with the '*speculations about an artists intent*' again. i've made no such speculations. i've simply said that *the lasers are drawn so the reader understands what is happening*. that is logical.
> 
> it does function like a laser - it moves in straight lines and can be deflected
> it was stated to be a laser - c is implied
> ...



This is your artist's intention right here. No strawman.
A laser in fiction almost never moves at c. Fucking Cap dodged them.


----------



## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> This is your artist's intention right here. No strawman.
> A laser in fiction almost never moves at c. Fucking Cap dodged them.



assuming an artist draws things to be understood is conjecture?

broken record. cap aimdodges.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> This is your artist's intention right here. No strawman.
> A laser in fiction almost never moves at c. Fucking Cap dodged them.



Cap aim dodges and Spiderman had until recently highly advanced precog that functions for him and at times takes control of his body to bail him out and even with out is a hypersonic insane bullet timer- bringing them up isn't evidence of anything beyond them both being very skilled at aim dodging 

so..you bringing both of them up as reasons why they aren't lasers is ignorance of just why they dodge lasers and it does not invalidate the fact that they are lasers


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

There is no artist. Thats the point. We are treating as we would treat a recording of past events. Narrator didn't say anything about it being c. Inuniverse logic, shows that it isn't c. It wasn't calced to be c. Its, therefore, not c.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

enough with the 'we'. i'm not taking any approach which is as obtuse as that. if it's stated to be a laser and demonstrates properties of a laser, i find it asinine to require proof that it moves at c, _unless_ there is proof that it does not.

there's none.

also



> Inuniverse logic, shows that it isn't c.



that's a lie.

in-universe, it is stated to be a laser, it is in a futuristic lab, it demonstrates coherent beam-like behaviour. in-universe it is entirely transparent that this is a laser.


----------



## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

How did it showed laser like property when it outright ignored them visually? Lasers are invisible.
Also, you are disregarding the very fundamentals of objective fictional debating


----------



## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> How did it showed laser like property when it outright ignored them visually? Lasers are invisible.
> Also, you are disregarding the very fundamentals of objective fictional debating



it showed laser-like properties in its coherence. and it ignored them visually because the reader needs to see what is going on. that is not a point against their portrayal.

the fundamentals of it as set down by whoever you've been referencing this whole time, maybe. my approach is wholly reasonable. i'm not amenable to being coerced into line by religious horror over the 'fundamentals' i'm apparently flouting.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> There is no artist. Thats the point. We are treating as we would treat a recording of past events.



don't quote me directly from the text like that I'm familiar with it 

and we as in this forum in particular aren't doing that we're "fight doctors'' 'sports analysts" looking at a character sheet with a list of power sets and personality flaws and a history..and making an assessment based on that out come- and arguing it as a scientist philosopher and lawyer would- would be a better example

that's how it's done here more or less while elements of the above sod method are used it's very clear how things are done here any one who lurks can see it we draw heavily on many different methods of viewing vs one school of thought seems more dominant then the other



AceDick said:


> *Inuniverse logic,* shows that it isn't c. It wasn't calced to be c. Its, therefore, not c.



bullshit in universe it's a fucking laser


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Visual evidence is for the most part the highest evidence. Visually, it didn't fuction like a laser. It was stated to be a laser but the term 'laser' is mostly a buzzword in fiction. Being called a laser doesn't make it c. For all we know, there is another meaning for laser. Afterall, it didn't behaved like real laser. Light amplified by stimulated emmission of radiation is shortly written as L.A.S.E.R. It didn't show one of the most basic (and most important in terms of security related use) property.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

> Visually, it didn't fuction like a laser.



already explained why numerous times and received no sufficient counter


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Visual evidence is for the most part the highest evidence. Visually, it didn't fuction like a laser.y.



you are at this stage refusing to listen and just repeating endlessly

edit- your issue seems to be because street level guys dodge lasers mixed with its glowy image it's not meeting the criteria..they don't they aim dodge the device projecting the lasers- and those still behave like laser beams in all other fields but being able to see them not grounds for dismissal


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Hey, not my fault when you outright disregard a valid counter as 'the artist's intention was to make it visible to make the readers see it'. Its going into the realm of literary approach


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

no, it isn't. that's just logical. things have to be seen by the reader so the narrative makes sense.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Hey, not my fault when you outright disregard a valid counter as 'the artist's intention was to make it visible to make the readers see it'. Its going into the realm of literary approach



Ace the last time you posted a valid counter was on page 1 we're well past that point now and worse I'm not convince you actually understand the stuff your using to support your position and the fallacy abuse is just..yuck this is reminding me of Pencil only vastly less experienced


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Lological. Again with the literary approach. There is no artist as far as we are concerned.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

there is no 'we'. this is not a 'literary' approach.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Lological. Again with the literary approach. There is no artist as far as we are concerned.



I already explained to you how we approach fiction and why

you keep saying we when it's only you and it's more like the sound one makes when he clings to a life line. your exhausting your patience credit with me here Ace


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Dialogues vs Visuals
Dialogue: 'L.A.S.E.R.'
-no mention of speed
Visual: didn't behave like L.A.S.E.R.
Pick one.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

oh, false dichotomies.

Dialogue: laser
Implication: laser
Laser: moves at c

Visuals: visible
Visuals: bounces like a laser
Visible because: reader needs to see it


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Dialogues vs Visuals
> Dialogue: 'L.A.S.E.R.'
> -no mention of speed
> Visual: didn't behave like L.A.S.E.R.
> Pick one.



okay you wanna go the pencil route?How about bullshit vs actual application of that criteria your so found of clinging too like some religious person. 

dialog(which I don't give a damn about anyways) : laser
Visual: shows an energy beam moving in a straight direction at high speeds
implication: Durr hurr laser

yeah it's a fucking laser with color!


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

The 'readers needs to see it' is literary analysis. There is no reader. We treat it as we would treat a past recording of events. Photographs. Videos. The narrator didn't imply it to be moving at c.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

there is no 'we'.

your obtuse approach fails to meet the requirements of analysing fiction.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> The 'readers needs to see it' is literary analysis. There is no reader. We treat it as we would treat a past recording of events. Photographs. Videos. The narrator didn't imply it to be moving at c.



are you just not reading posts now? do you have a service monkey who just spams this bullshit? I already explained to you how fictions is viewed here but encase you have fucking reading comprehension problems



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> and we as in this forum in particular aren't doing that we're "fight doctors'' 'sports analysts" looking at a character sheet with a list of power sets and personality flaws and a history..and making an assessment based on that out come- and when arguing it as we do as part scientist part philosopher and part lawyer - would be a better example
> 
> that's how it's done here more or less while elements of the above sod method are used it's very clear how things are done here any one who lurks can see it we draw heavily on many different methods of viewing vs one school of thought seems more dominant then the other
> r



Jesus christ son repeating some one elses essay nonstop wont make it any less valid in this instance nor make your absolute lack of proper understanding and desperation any less real


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

No it doesn't. I am following the method of analysing fiction word by word.
Lets just agree to disagree. We have already dived into the 'you are a troll. You remind me of a troll' zone. It will get worse. Not worth it.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> No it doesn't. I am following the method of analysing fiction word by word.



no you aren't your lecturing us on what should be conducted here when we have explained to you how it's done - you are continuing to say We as if your part of some vast majority when you aren't

you will be corrected on this grave error and your bastardizing of this method because you have derailed a thread and created a needless thread on the side that has cluttered up a sub forum and for no justifiable reason


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## Lucaniel (Oct 6, 2011)

yes, it does. events are being related as a narrative. that means that your understanding of them is impaired if you disregard narration, implication and intent

you cannot treat things which are not video recordings as such. these are selectively-presented vignettes of an event. they have to be seen in that light. they have to be interpreted in that light.

this does not mean they cannot be discarded if reasonable proof for their invalidity exists. and it does not mean they can be discarded on a whim. we aren't monkeys. we don't need all the information given to us on a plate. we're capable of implication and inference.

your approach is wholly inadequate, misguided and constrictive.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

Luca makes a pretty valid point as well even if I don't wholly agree with him on how to view the fiction we're discussing


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

I am not asking you to disregard the narrator at all. The narrator said nothing about it being c. Thats all. The narrator took a recording of a past event where a person was shown to dodge a supposedly laser beam that didn't behave lile irl laser and no speed was mentioned.
Anyway lets end this here. Would have repped you but you seemed sealed.


----------



## Archreaper93 (Oct 6, 2011)

To stray away from the laser argument, how fast do Thing's thunderclaps travel? I think that could determine whether Sensui could dodge/outrun them.


----------



## Glued (Oct 6, 2011)

jedijohn said:


> To stray away from the laser argument, how fast do Thing's thunderclaps travel? I think that could determine whether Sensui could dodge/outrun them.



Well considering that TNT creates a shockwave of 6,900 m/s, probably about the same amount.

He really doesn't use his thunderclap.


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## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

Thats about mach 20. Slow by B class standards even


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## Whimsy (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> The 'readers needs to see it' is literary analysis. There is no reader. We treat it as we would treat a past recording of events. Photographs. Videos. The narrator didn't imply it to be moving at c.



Lolwut

That's never ever been the case. Except with people who don't understand the concept of fiction.


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## Heavenly King (Oct 6, 2011)

LMAO!!!! acedick I see things never change here


----------



## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

I have no idea what HK is babbling about
@Whim
Eh, I was just going by how fiction is analysed at SDN. If its different here, fine. I am new here. Just getting the hang of it here.


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## Heavenly King (Oct 6, 2011)

you go way to hard on things ace


----------



## AceDick (Oct 6, 2011)

I have no idea what you just said.


----------



## Heavenly King (Oct 6, 2011)

AceDick said:


> I have no idea what you just said.



never mind it's over your head


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 7, 2011)

I've never seen anyone in comics "dodge" or "outrun" a thunderclap. Claiming the likes of YYH characters can do it is just wank.


----------



## willyvereb (Oct 7, 2011)

Well, shockwaves have no hard substance neither something to visually sign their approach. Even if YYH characters may be able to dodge the thunderclap, I doubt they have any ways to expect it.

...not to mention that explosions on nuke scale have the initial expansion velocity close to relativistic levels. So even if you're massively hypersonic physics say just plain "No" to avoiding the Thing's attack.


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## AceDick (Oct 7, 2011)

We have gone past thunderclaps and the last 5 pages have been about whether a laser is lightspeed or not?
My claim was that if its visible, its not behaving as a real laser.
Also what kind of argument was that? In YYH, dodging shockwaves is possible.
What is the speed of the thunderclap and its radius of effect will be he factor. Obviously it wouldn't reach a person 10 km away.
About speed, lets say the shockwave moved at relatisvistic speed. A lightspeed oq faster character can outrun it. Like Wally


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 7, 2011)

Mr. Fantastic uses the mental powers he used to contact Galactus and solos.


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## AceDick (Oct 7, 2011)

^will you elaborate...


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 7, 2011)

Mr. Fantastic's infinite range thought waves, powerful enough to reach a Galactus who is a billion light years away.

He's also Marvel Earth's greatest judo master.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 7, 2011)

That's more of Galactus' sensory powers than anything Reed was doing.

Unless you're trying to claim he's going to ask Galactus for help


----------



## AceDick (Oct 7, 2011)

God damn. Is there any common ground for the powers of F4
Wiki says one thing.
Luc says another
IWD says another
Ben Grimm says another
Charchan says another
Mike says another
Whats next?


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 7, 2011)

I was just commenting on the scan. You know these guys have like 50 years of history so there is a lot of stuff.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 7, 2011)

Actually yeah he asks Galactus for extra time so they all end up making him a favor (looking for the Surfer who escaped into the Microverse), or else Earth bites it (when Reed contacts him Earth is about to be hit by a planetoid because Galactus can be so unsubtle).

I wasn't totally serious btw, hence the smiley. I doubt Reed is all that judo anymore.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 7, 2011)

AceDick said:


> God damn. Is there any common ground for the powers of F4
> Wiki says one thing.
> Luc says another
> IWD says another
> ...



Invisible Woman also received Iron Fist level martial arts training.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 7, 2011)

AceDick said:


> God damn. Is there any common ground for the powers of F4
> Wiki says one thing.
> Luc says another
> IWD says another
> ...



isn't that just your standard day on a vs debating forum? I'm with Nevermind and EM I doubt Sue has legit LS reaction time I'd call SM vs FL on that but my take on it is that her doing it through aim dodging as it were isn't too impossible others slower then her have done so

but I don't know enough about her consistent  reaction feats to make a proper guess if others feel more inclined or confident then that's fine but


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## AceDick (Oct 7, 2011)

Cap and Spidey can aim dodge lasers. Not a great speed feat


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 7, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> not so much so Ben can either AOE or jump up or simply out last him
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just skimming through this thread and surprise surprise I stumbled on the Ben takes hits from Gladiator so has Planet+ level durability inferences being laid out.  Why not say the same for Human torch who also toke a hit from gladiator? In any case, if someone on the Yu Yu hakusho side happens to have an open beer bottle and can chuck it at HT, he's gonna go down. It's Civil war cannon after all. 

As to this fight, it's basically a quick draw and nothing more...


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 7, 2011)

you can't infer planetary durability when the mans inside were essentially soup held together by balls and a high pain threshold

Ben got fucking mulched the impressive part is that he wasn't sprayed everywhere nothing else- it's a solid soak feat that puts him beyond sensui's ability to kill


----------



## Glued (Oct 7, 2011)

I have never seen Ben tanking a planetary level attack. His fight against the Universal Champion was Ben's finest battle. The Champ was using mountain busting punches as stated with his confrontation with Sasquatch.

After three rounds of continuous mountain busting punches, Ben Grimm finally fell. He was still able to crawl back up to face his opponent again and he was barely able to stand.

Although the Champion is himself a planet buster, I doubt he used that level of power against Ben.

We don't know how hard Gladiator punched Ben, my guess, a punch strong enough to destroy multiple mountains.

Blaastar, an asteroid buster made Ben bleed, ben still won though


----------



## AceDick (Oct 7, 2011)

Sensui can mountain bust with his shockwaves. Think thunderclap just unidirectional and one armed.


----------



## hammer (Oct 7, 2011)

if kurama can use his smarts to win the non fighting territories why wont reed :33


Johnny super novas everyone else


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 7, 2011)

claiming spiderman isn't fast

claiming Sensui can beat Ben...because the universal champion hurt him

pretty god damn amusing


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 7, 2011)

Blastaar actually has enough power to make entire planets shake with his attacks


----------



## AceDick (Oct 7, 2011)

Claiming Parker is anywhere remotely near Sensui in speed
Claiming Ben will ever get a chance to hurt Sensui when he is up in the air a few kms above.
Funny
Seriously, its not like Ben has country/continent/planet level durability if thats what you are implying.
Sensui swinging his arm produces a shockwave comparable to the kinetic energy release of an Hydrogen bomb. Now are you implying that Ben is so durable that he can tank the kinetic energy release of hundreds of H bombs one after another? In that case, why is his durability listed as city level only unless its one of those cases like Susan's where her speed is listed as peak human but she has massively hypersonic reactions or something?!


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 7, 2011)

Ben hurt Super Skrull even though he was attacking from the air 

Sensui can't fire hundreds of H-bomb level attacks right after another. That's just wank.

If you're so insistent on using the wiki stats, Sensui's power is only "around mountain level" in his strongest form.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 7, 2011)

Thing can brawl with magic glow arms Dr. Doom, he solos.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 7, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Claiming Parker is anywhere remotely near Sensui in speed



claiming he's slow is six levels of crazy which is what you did.



AceDick said:


> Claiming Ben will ever get a chance to hurt Sensui when he is up in the air a few kms above.



we proved this..you just kept repeating the same stuff over and over and then started a hilarious misguided lecture about what's what around here



AceDick said:


> Seriously, its not like Ben has country/continent/planet level durability if thats what you are implying.



i'm implying because he wasn't soup by gladz blow and survived a beating from some one who could solo the YYHverse with out dying he's too tough for Sesnui I been saying this actually outright since the begning of the thread..we all have and you really failed to prove other wise

now you said you considered the matter closed..Cthulu's ranting aside..I have no reason why you bothered starting this up again



AceDick said:


> Sensui swinging his arm produces a shockwave comparable to the kinetic energy release of an Hydrogen bomb. Now are you implying that Ben is so durable that he can tank the kinetic energy release of hundreds of H bombs one after another? In that case, why is his durability listed as city level only unless its one of those cases like Susan's where her speed is listed as peak human but she has massively hypersonic reactions or something?!



oh lord here we go again with the wiki and relying on the efforts of other people/sites


----------



## AceDick (Oct 7, 2011)

Hey then give me feats. Not comparisions one after another.
Ben hurt Superskull tells me nothing unless two things are cleared:
1. Superskull's durability
2. His speed
3. His distance from Ben
As I said, Sensui, without using any ki attack, just by swinging his arm, created an H-bomb level shockwaves that is easy to calculate if we know the volume of rocks.
He can swing his arms 6000 per seconds.
Even if we say that he takes some kind of hypothetical charge time between his punches (when in reality he shouldn't since they are normal punches), what is that charge time? Since you are the only claiming its existence, prove how long it takes to charge a punch? If its 6000x, it means he can punch one such punch per second. If its 360000x he can punch once a minute. Prove the existence of a charge time between normal punches. Its not like he is firing ki attacks.


----------



## AceDick (Oct 7, 2011)

@IWD
Strawman
I never said Parker is slow.
Btw, he is much slower compared to Sensui if you wanna know
You proved nothing unless you show that Ben's shockwaves have a range of a few kms radius.
IWD is implying that Ben took a planet busting punch without dying. Damaged but not dead. Thus, he is implying that Ben has planet level durability or pretty close to it. Is that what you are saying?
Btw, why are you accusing me of bumping it, when in reality, its you who did it? Blame shifting
F4 wins because of Sue's shields (assuming she can bring up them in 0.003 sec) and because Johnny's mach 34 speed, flight, nova flames.
Ben and Reed, without prep, cannot win it by themselves


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

AceDick said:


> @IWD
> Strawman
> I never said Parker is slow.
> Btw, he is much slower compared to Sensui if you wanna know
> You proved nothing unless you show that Ben's shockwaves have a range of a few kms radius.





AceDick said:


> Cap and Spidey can aim dodge lasers. Not a great speed feat





AceDick said:


> Cap and Spidey can aim dodge lasers. _Not a great speed feat_





AceDick said:


> Not a great speed feat



implication is right fucking there..aint no strawman when the opposing side up and all but says it




AceDick said:


> IWD is implying that Ben took a planet busting punch without dying. Damaged but not dead. Thus, he is implying that Ben has planet level durability or pretty close to it. Is that what you are saying?



yeah I'm about as subtle as a nuclear holocaust I don't imply or insinuate I outright claim it.. what I said was he took blows from Gladiator and did not turn into soup

even if it wasn't a planet busting being punched by gladz with the intent to kill you..and not dying qualifies you as Superior to the YYHverse



AceDick said:


> Hey then give me feats. Not comparisions one after another.
> Ben hurt Superskull tells me nothing unless two things are cleared:
> 1. Superskull's durability
> 2. His speed
> ...



y;know since Lucaniel and I already shut this party down and took care of this thread.. fuck it this is just getting dumb


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

Lol
Strawman
Apparently saying that Parker aimdodging laser is not a good speedfeat is equal to calling him slow. Try harder.
So, how hard did Glad punched him? Give me stats. Calcs, collateral damage, statement, anything. Planet level? No? Continent? Country? Or is it unquantifiable? Don't bring it then.
No you didn't. Luc, you and I were wasting 5 pages discussing laser feat of Sue where I said that its not lightspeed unless proven.
F4 wins because of Sue's shields (assuming she can bring up them in 0.003 sec) and because Johnny's mach 34 speed, flight, nova flames.
Ben and Reed, without prep, cannot win it by themselves


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Hey then give me feats. Not comparisions one after another.
> Ben hurt Superskull tells me nothing unless two things are cleared:
> 1. Superskull's durability



At the very least multi - mountain level, against heat - based attacks or explosions it goes beyond planet level



> 2. His speed



Relativistic in space, massively hypersonic in the atmosphere



> 3. His distance from Ben



I don't know, pretty hard to scale from the comic. He was way up there though.



> As I said, Sensui, without using any ki attack, just by swinging his arm, created an H-bomb level shockwaves that is easy to calculate if we know the volume of rocks.
> He can swing his arms 6000 per seconds.
> Even if we say that he takes some kind of hypothetical charge time between his punches (when in reality he shouldn't since they are normal punches), what is that charge time? Since you are the only claiming its existence, prove how long it takes to charge a punch? If its 6000x, it means he can punch one such punch per second. If its 360000x he can punch once a minute. Prove the existence of a charge time between normal punches. Its not like he is firing ki attacks.



Because every attack has the same energy cost, no matter how strong it is, right? 

Show me him firing multiple mountain busters in sequence.


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

At Mike,
Thanks for the durability and speed. I am assuming both him and Ben were at full power?
Anyway, Sensui can fly multiple kms up in the air. The height is important because it determines the range of Ben's shockwave.
Sensui was punching Yusuke rapidly throughout the battle. Punch > shockwave by a long shot. Even if Sensui can punch just once in 5 mins, thats still 12 mountain buster+ punches in an hour.
F4 wins because of Sue's shields (assuming she can bring up them in 0.003 sec) and because Johnny's mach 34 speed, flight, nova flames.
Ben and Reed, without prep, cannot win it by themselves
I have only two problem:
1. Opposition is using this logic:
Character A is stronger than B.
Me: How strong is B?
Stronger than C?
Me: How strong is C?
Stronger than D who is planet buster.
Me: Was D at full power?
No.
Me: What level was he at?
I have no idea.
2. The no limits fallacy that Ben's shockwave has unlimited range.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

None of those punches did anywhere near as much damage as you're claiming. You're being hypocritical by using this argument since the same argument could be used to say Thing took planet-busting punches from Gladiator.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 8, 2011)

Thing also crushed Dr. Doom's protective armor with his hands. Prognosis: not good.


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

I have no problem with Thing tanking planet level punches. Its IWD and you who is saying that Glad wasn't at full power.
Sensui wasn't holding back against Yusuke.
You are treating Sensui's punches as ki attacks with charge time. They are just punches.
Don't know about the charge time of Yusuke's reigun but Shura's attacks took 0.04 seconds to fully charge. Not saying Sensui is anywhere near Shura


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

It doesn't matter what kind of attacks they are, they still require power. The power released by the attack depends on the power put into it, is this not true? Your failure is this:

You observe 1 attack with very high power.

You observe multiple attacks of the same type with no evidence they have anywhere near that much power.

You assume attacks with the power of the former can be spammed like the latter.

Let me just ask you something, do you read Toriko? Because this concept is obvious there. Toriko's strongest punching attacks have lots of power, but he can't spam them easily, and using them at high levels too often exhausts his stamina.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

so let's rehash this we have a character who has withstood a beating and a gut check that would have killed any one in YYh (and seriously here do not claim that an S class could take a blow from either UC or Gladz that'd be trolling)

has reacted too and fought with bricks faster than Sensui could ever hope to be and in one instance was able to not only get over but suck the guy in and punch him faster than he could escape.

He's apparently clapped out the Superskrull another being who could could solo YYH

and your reaction is to go 'they only win because of Sue and johnny you have no feats *proceeds too try and pull the whole "scientific analysis of feats poorly*
yeah I think it's clear: you have failed to properly debunk things and you continue to claim mountain busting plus power for every blow Sensui lands when that is completely not true at all and not supported by the actual canon

in conclusion what Charcan or another poster said said Ben or Johnny solo


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 8, 2011)

So the notion that YYH top tiers can fire 11,000 mountain busters per second is false?


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

What does Toriko have to do with it?
Punches require no charge time. This is a fact.
In YYH, we saw that shockwaves of similar power can be spammed. This is in the DT final.
Sensui can do it too.
Lets say he needs a charge time. What is it 6000x regular punches? 360000x? More? One punch in 5 min? One in 15?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

Why'd you make this thread Acedick 

Just concede dude.

Sensui's little group isn't likely going to be taking on the fantasic 4.

50 years of canon is bound to have solidified their showings at a higher level than anything Sensui and company can dish out.

I may not read comics, but this just seems stupid when comics have more material to pull from.


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

@IWD
What are you talking about? 
Was Glad at full power? Was Surfer? Was Superskrull? 
If yes, it would mean Ben is lightspeed + planet level durability.
If no, what level were they? You haven't mentioned it. Atleast Mike is extremely logical in his approach. Your arguments are in the realm of unquantifiable shit. Again, what level were they? Scale it from statements. Calcs. Colleteral damage. I don't care. Quantify it


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 8, 2011)

> So the notion that YYH top tiers can fire 11,000 mountain busters per second is false?



...
..
.


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

@Chaos
Dude, you pulled same thing against Bunchuu.
I admitted they win because of Sue and Johnny.
As for feats, that what we are talking about. No body is providing any solid quantifiable feats.
Ben tanks a planet buster. Turns out the opponent wasn't at full power. What level was he at? Nobody answers.
Btw, I made this thread because I falsely assumed that F4 were only as strong as obd wiki said they were


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> So the notion that YYH top tiers can fire 11,000 mountain busters per second is false?



it's bullshit of the highest order possible due to no one in the entire series ever doing anything even remotely close to that on panel

best feat aside from Raizen being awesome is Yomi hurling a baseball sized energy sphere into a mountain and leveling it.

Sensui busted up a plateu and with yusukes help demolished some small mountains..the boob shaped one for example? Bens busted similar just grabbing IM's arm near one



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Why'd you make this thread Acedick
> 
> Just concede dude.
> 
> ...



for some silly reason he believes that Benjamin Grimm can't kill Sensui despite brawling with base Hulk for decades and surviving a beat down from an elder of the universe..and a gut chuck by Gladz and fucking up Dooms armor and all that goodness

also I think he just compared you standing up to Danchuu's wank to us vs him..for some reason


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> it's bullshit of the highest order possible due to no one in the entire series ever doing anything even remotely close to that on panel



I suppose firing off so many shockwaves of the same magnitude would be rather difficult.

I'm not so sure the punches themselves would weaken much, but whatever.

Sensui likely doesn't hit hard enough to harm the fantasic four anyway.



> best feat aside from Raizen being awesome is Yomi hurling a baseball sized energy sphere into a mountain and leveling it.



That might be anime only.



> Sensui busted up a plateu and with yusukes help demolished some small mountains..



What's your definition of "small"?

We have scalings that place those plateau as rather tall dude.

About 2 km high for the one Yusuke busted with his reigan.  3.4 km wide.



> Bens busted similar just grabbing IM's arm near one



That's rather likely from what I've heard.


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

@IWD
What the hell are you talking about? Your problem is you want vague shit to be accepted as facts without proof or calcs. Everything you said is vague, subjective, unquantifiable, speculative.
Mach 25 would equate some 6000 punches per second.
IWD:
2. Normal Punches require charge time like ki blasts.
-occam's razor disagree
2. Using anime
-disregard of canon
3. Disregarding calcs
-violation of SOD approach


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> for some silly reason he believes that Benjamin Grimm can't kill Sensui despite brawling with base Hulk for decades and surviving a beat down from an elder of the universe..and a gut chuck by Gladz and fucking up Dooms armor and all that goodness



I see.



> also I think he just compared you standing up to Danchuu's wank to us vs him..for some reason



No, he's talking about a Bunchuu vs Sensui thread in the manga dome.

Btw, Endless Mike (assuming you read this_, I don't suppose you could just point me in the general direction of Bunchuu's speed feat?

No links or anything, I can just sift through the volume.


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

@Chaos
Try asking them to provide durability feats for F4 that is devoid of complications like:
1. The opponent was planet buster but he wasn't at full power.
2. We don't know his level at that time.
3. We can't assume anything without calcs, colleteral damage, statement
I have no problem if Ben have planet level durability if its quantifiable


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

AceDick said:


> @Chaos
> Try asking them to provide durability feats for F4 that is devoid of complications like:
> 1. The opponent was planet buster but he wasn't at full power.



Fighting and tanking multiple blows from a base hulk isn't sufficient?

I like sensui and all, but I don't think anything I've calced for him is going to match that.



> 2. We don't know his level at that time.



Elaborate.



> 3. We can't assume anything without calcs, colleteral damage, statement



We don't really need calcs for comics from what I can tell.

I mean, You have our own planet to pull average mountain sizes and shit from depending on the location of a fight right.



> I have no problem if Ben have planet level durability if its quantifiable



There's a bit of a difference between durability and endurance.

Pretty sure I heard he was getting pretty fucked up by gadiator.

That still places him high enough above sensui for me to feel this is a poor match up.


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

Thats the problem they were saying that Ben's opponent wasn't at full power.
Its like Toguro vs Kuwabara in Yukina arc. Can't use Toguro's full power to calc Kuwabara's durability and endurance. It case by case basis. Base Hulk is mountain level only


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

Mountain level

Mountain level+

All semantics.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess base hulk has managed to level something much larger than anything I've calced.

Especially since a base hulk level character defeated Yusuke in a thread IIRC.

Abomination or something.


----------



## AlmightyPain (Oct 8, 2011)

@IWD

There were no "small" mountains in Sensui vs Yusuke fight.
They pretty much can fire off 11,000 punches per second, spam shock waves, and ki attacks.

@Chaos 

It was She Hulk vs Sensui. I made the thread.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

And once more I feel like my calcs have unleashed a metaphorical pandora's box of wank


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 8, 2011)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Why'd you make this thread Acedick
> 
> Just concede dude.
> 
> ...



It's gotten to the point where Thing compressing futuristic metal skyscrappers into regular sized swords he can carry for shit and giggles is more of a background feat to, say, his traditional getting into fights with the freaking Hulk.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

AceDick said:


> @IWD
> What the hell are you talking about? Your problem is you want vague shit to be accepted as facts without proof or calcs.* Everything you said is vague, subjective, unquantifiable, speculative*.]



no it isn't the vast majority of the people here knew exactly what I was talking about it was vague to you because *you do not know enough about ff Ben or marvel it seems*



AceDick said:


> Mach 25 would equate some 6000 punches per second.
> IWD:
> 2. Normal Punches require charge time like ki blasts



and you can show me a scan of thousands of mountain busters or not?



AceDick said:


> -occam's razor disagree



happens on panel or shut up



AceDick said:


> 2. Using anime
> -disregard of canon



Never happened in the anime actually..yusuke went catatonic or some bullshit and Yomi shot green blobs at Yusuke..so try again



AceDick said:


> 3. Disregarding calcs
> *-violation of SOD approach*



are you a fucking parrot? how many times do we need to beat the fact that various poster approach things different into your fucking head? 




ChaosTheory123 said:


> I suppose firing off so many shockwaves of the same magnitude would be rather difficult.
> 
> I'm not so sure the punches themselves would weaken much, but whatever.
> 
> Sensui likely doesn't hit hard enough to harm the fantasic four anyway.



thousands of mountain busters would be beyond Radditz level for sense of scale




ChaosTheory123 said:


> What's your definition of "small"?
> 
> We have scalings that place those plateau as rather tall dude.
> 
> ...




I'm talking about the mountain not the plateau


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

AceDick said:


> What does Toriko have to do with it?



It was an analogy.



> Punches require no charge time. This is a fact.
> In YYH, we saw that shockwaves of similar power can be spammed. This is in the DT final.
> Sensui can do it too.
> Lets say he needs a charge time. What is it 6000x regular punches? 360000x? More? One punch in 5 min? One in 15?



Are you honestly this fucking thick? I've been trying to explain this simple concept to you as best I can but you keep failing to get it.

The amount of damage a physical attack does depends on the amount of power put into it.

You are claiming because a few of Sensui's punches did high damage, and he can throw punches rapidly, that he can spam the same kind of damage. YOU ARE IGNORING the issue of whether he has enough POWER to do this.

It has nothing to do with "charge time", it has to do with stamina and energy.

Let's say Sensui has 100 "energy points". These represent the total amount of power he has for fighting. A mountainbusting punch uses up 10 energy points. When he's used them all up, he is too exhausted to throw another punch like that. Got it?

The burden of proof is on you to prove Sensui has enough "energy points" to do what you are claiming.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> best feat aside from Raizen being awesome is Yomi hurling a baseball sized energy sphere into a mountain and leveling it.



I'm pretty sure that's filler.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> I see.
> 
> No, he's talking about a Bunchuu vs Sensui thread in the manga dome.
> 
> ...



It's been years since I read the manga. I don't remember. Just look at any scene where he fights.


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

@Chaos
Try asking for some base Hulk feats and see if someone can calc them. Would like a good side by side comparision


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> and you can show me a scan of thousands of mountain busters or not?



He's basically getting that from combining a speed calc and a scaling calc.

I can see the point of not having the shockwaves being spammable at the same magintude.

Not sold on the punches weakening that is creating said shockwaves though.

Then again shouldn't matter here.



> thousands of mountain busters would be beyond Radditz level for sense of scale



To be fair, Sensui IS beyond Raditz physically.

Not overall obviously, but DB has pretty shitty showings of strength until Namek as I've pointed out to you before in conversation.

Not saying he can throw 1000s of mountain busters a second now I guess... not sure what point I was trying to make now 



> I'm talking about the mountain not the plateau



I have that at about 4 km tall.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

AceDick said:


> @Chaos
> Try asking for some base Hulk feats and see if someone can calc them. Would like a good side by side comparision



Honestly?

As I've said, I just need his general location and Knowledge of average mountain heights in real life for a comparison.

Calcs are kind of unneeded in that sense.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

AceDick said:


> @Chaos
> Try asking for some base Hulk feats and see if someone can calc them. Would like a good side by side comparision



and this is where your posts stop seemingly like a genuine attempt to get to the truth and start seeming like posters remarks about you basically having ulterior motives and being a Pencil analog..start sounding remarkable.. Accurate 



Endless Mike said:


> I'm pretty sure that's filler.



I haven't scene the fight against yusuke animated in a very long time but I recall it being very different the only thing they busted was that big mushroom and if memory serves it was their combined effort..and both were going all out




ChaosTheory123 said:


> Pretty sure I heard he was getting pretty fucked up by gadiator.



fucked up would be a gargantuan understatement Ben was closer to death in that scene then I think he's been in a very long time. the point is despite his insides being pure' the bastard had the sheer will power and pain threshold to get up to one knee and basically tell gladz he was ready for seconds

and yeah rumbling with base hulk and UC

as to Abomination vs Yusuke Emil is slightly stronger than Base Hulk



ChaosTheory123 said:


> And once more I feel like my calcs have unleashed a metaphorical pandora's box of wank



noble intentions can't be faulted


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> It's been years since I read the manga. I don't remember. Just look at any scene where he fights.



Eh, fair enough.

I'm about to start the manga anyway.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

Try a casual punch near the west of the American mainland creating an earthquake that was detected in Denmark


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

Yeah...

That's not above Sensui or anything 

Someone lock this...


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> He's basically getting that from combining a speed calc and a scaling calc.
> 
> I can see the point of not having the shockwaves being spammable at the same magintude.
> 
> ...



it shouldn't but I'm not allowing any one to get away with wank..even if the fights a clear stomp



ChaosTheory123 said:


> To be fair, Sensui IS beyond Raditz physically.
> 
> Not overall obviously, but DB has pretty shitty showings of strength until Namek as I've pointed out to you before in conversation.
> 
> Not saying he can throw 1000s of mountain busters a second now I guess... not sure what point I was trying to make now



I agree with you about the DBz stats but Sensui didn't throw that punch with brute force it was an extension of his sacred energy aura



ChaosTheory123 said:


> I have that at about 4 km tall.



you do? based on what? I don't recall it being that big at all I mean it's been awhile but Fuuu



Endless Mike said:


> Try a casual punch near the west of the American mainland creating an earthquake that was detected in Denmark



damn..who did that?


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

Base Savage Hulk, back in the 70s or 80s


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

I can see Mike logic. I am willing to agree with it. However, if we are to get an idea of Sensui's stamina, Yusuke, who was weaker, ran at top speed for 5 days. It takes more energy to use legs at full speed than arms no?
IWD is still saying vague things.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

So you think it takes more energy to run (probably at a casual pace rather than top speed) than it does to continuously fight, take hits, fly and dodge at super speed, fire energy blasts and do fancy energy techniques, and charge up attacks with spirit power?


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

@IWD
It was just a punch. No ki attack.
@Mike
No. It takes more energy to use legs at full speed than punching. I agree with rest. Its just that, irl, punches only depends on the speed.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

Didn't he have that aura around him the whole time? That kind of makes it hard to say


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

Edited my post


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Didn't he have that aura around him the whole time? That kind of makes it hard to say



His aura was the sacred energy and such.

I've been under the impression he created a shockwave similar to how Toguro was doing on a much smaller scale from 80% and up.

We also have Yusuke using a shockwave to knock out one of the human psychics right after the tournament.

Then we have Sensui and Yusuke's little warm up in the sky causing a crater via shockwaves from the clash.

I was never really led to believe the aura caused the attack.


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

It didn't. Sensui used a shockwave. The aura was converted to tangible matter, his armour. Sensui said so


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Didn't he have that aura around him the whole time? That kind of makes it hard to say



the sacred energy seemed to complete envelope him and had very unique properties- It's impossibly to say it was pure physical given the weird parameters of that




ChaosTheory123 said:


> I was never really led to believe the aura caused the attack.



His aura covered everything and was used for everything from physical attacks to actual armor and energy projections..It's hard to say it was pure force

what Yusuke and Toguro did was different



Endless Mike said:


> Base Savage Hulk, back in the 70s or 80s



Hulk was a bit of a douche back then if memory serves

Guess then Ben can handle anything Sensui can dish out even those "thousand blows"


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 8, 2011)

Do Yu Yu hakusho characters amp thier blows with spirit energy?

And Yusuke wasn't enveloped in it. He should have similar strength to Sensui


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

AceDick said:


> It didn't. Sensui used a shockwave. The aura was converted to tangible matter, his armour. Sensui said so



Posted it again


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> His aura covered everything and was used for everything from physical attacks to actual armor and energy projections..It's hard to say it was pure force



I wouldn't say so given the showings of weaker characters in the series.

As I said before even.  Yusuke and Sensui were able to create a rather nice shockwave just by clashing.



> what Yusuke and Toguro did was different



No it isn't 

the manner in which the feats were accomplished were basically the same.

They swung there arms.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> Do Yu Yu hakusho characters amp thier blows with spirit energy?



They've been shown to amp all stats with reiki/yoki.

Strength, speed, durability, etc.

Some can do it better than others, but it all scales upward the more reiki/yoki you possess.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I wouldn't say so given the showings of weaker characters in the series.
> 
> As I said before even.  Yusuke and Sensui were able to create a rather nice shockwave just by clashing.]



ehh I always thought that looked like a discharge of energy..a shockwave of their chi



ChaosTheory123 said:


> No it isn't
> 
> the manner in which the feats were accomplished were basically the same.
> 
> They swung there arms.



right but two guys had standard chi

the other guy was running on something that functioned radically different and had various properties unique to it..


Uncle Phantom said:


> Do Yu Yu hakusho characters amp thier blows with spirit energy?
> 
> And Yusuke wasn't enveloped in it. He should have similar strength to Sensui



yes to the first one Genkai and Keonma both explained that early in the series I think and if I remember the fight right Sensui still has a slight edge on Yusuke until daddy possessed him

then it was just..rape, rape,rape


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

Yusuke had an aura in that fight too


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 8, 2011)

I know but I'm saying, Yusuke not having sacred energy and still being close to Sensui in strength kinda debunks the theory that Sensui's mountain busting blows can't be attributed to his physical strength. 

Unless CB Yusuke is miles ahead of Sensui physically which doesn't make too much sense.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

Or that they both have comparable physical stats and both amped their blows with energy


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

it could be pure strength granted but the nature of sensui's specific powers always have me weary



Endless Mike said:


> Or that they both have comparable physical stats and both amped their blows with energy



that too any ways i think Genkai said 'your physical strength craps out at a certain level and you need to use spirit energy for the rest"


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 8, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Yusuke had an aura in that fight too



He did, but it was just his spirit energy. It didn't behave like sacred energy.

If it doesn't behave like sacred energy, then there's no reason why his spirit energy at the time would give him properties it did not in the past. It would also not give him properties that S energy would.

Meaning his physical strength was just that and not an extension of his aura.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> ehh I always thought that looked like a discharge of energy..a shockwave of their chi



It looked like what Toguro was throwing around on a much larger scale.

Toguro was never indicated to utilize yoki to accomplish his shockwaves.

YYH establishes quite clearly that characters with sufficient strength can create shockwaves with there punches.

Why would this be any different trading equal blows with another guy shown to creat shockwaves in a much weaker incarnation?

Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

Do I really need to post Toguro's?

I will, hell, I'll post the thumb bullets too if need be.



> right but two guys had standard chi



Sensui's just happens to be the most potent in YYH, how does that detract from how stats scale in the series?



> the other guy was running on something that functioned radically different and had various properties unique to it..



No, seriously... hows that make it so that his physical strength differs so greatly from 2 weaker characters... his shockwaves aren't just air as well?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> He did, but it was just his spirit energy. It didn't behave like sacred energy.
> 
> If it doesn't behave like sacred energy, then there's no reason why his spirit energy at the time would give him properties it did not in the past.
> 
> Meaning his physical strength was just that and not an extension of his aura.



It was demon energy, he had just had his demon side awakened


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> It was demon energy, he had just had his demon side awakened



Please, I'm tired so I must be missing your point.

However... explain how them having aura's mean their shockwaves were energy in nature?

That just sounds like utter bullshit to me given the precedent set by Yusuke and Toguro in B class.

When they had no auras around them while creating the shockwaves.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

I never said they must, I just said it wasn't clear - cut


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> I never said they must, I just said it wasn't clear - cut



I don't really see how it isn't, given as I said, Yusuke and Toguro could produce shockwaves without such effects as much weaker humans/demons.

Fair enough on the must point, as I said, I'm pretty tired by now...

I wasted time I should be asleep in this thread


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

The thread ended long time ago.
Page 5 to 11, it was laser discussion. It got resolved.
Page 11 to now, its Sensui punch/shockwave rate discussion. Not resolved yet.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> He did, but it was just his spirit energy. It didn't behave like sacred energy.



Demon energy I think his reishi was completely depleted by that point



Uncle Phantom said:


> If it doesn't behave like sacred energy, then there's no reason why his spirit energy at the time would give him properties it did not in the past. It would also not give him properties that S energy would.



Demon Chi in YYH also behaves differently from Reishi for example melting and destroying solid objects..vaporizing people too weak to be around the aura and the like




Uncle Phantom said:


> Meaning his physical strength was just that and not an extension of his aura.



or his S class demonic aura revving like that obliterated that mountain as a side effect of being near it



ChaosTheory123 said:


> No, seriously... hows that make it so that his physical strength differs so greatly from 2 weaker characters... his shockwaves aren't just air as well?



because I don't buy it being a shockwave of air and force like it was with gormet and what ever the hell Toguro did. I think it's his sacred energy

not that it changes anything the result is the same


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

You don't buying it doesn't change the fact that it was a shockwave. The aura was converted to tangible matter. Sensui said so.
Toguro uses shockwave.
Yusuke does.
Sensui does.
Raizen did.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

AceDick said:


> You don't buying it doesn't change the fact that it was a shockwave. The aura was converted to tangible matter. Sensui said so.
> Toguro uses shockwave.
> Yusuke does.
> Sensui does.
> Raizen did.




why are you still here?


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

Huh? I said I conceded the match a long time ago. I am just discussing your claim that shockwave = holy aura.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

Except I think I recall him still having an aura around him while wearing the armor


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

He does and so does Yusuke with his yoki.

I'm still not sure what the aura has anything to do with factoring into the creation of a shockwave when two relatively different forms of spiritual energy in the series already has people producing shockwaves from pure physical might amped up by said spiritual energy.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> He does and so does Yusuke with his yoki.
> 
> I'm still not sure what the aura has anything to do with factoring into the creation of a shockwave when two relatively different forms of spiritual energy in the series already has people producing shockwaves from pure physical might amped up by said spiritual energy.



because it sort of matters - besides Yoki was also kind of wonky while it's clear Toguro did allot of stuff on raw strength both Sensui and Yusuke could of done that damage via their chi..rather than pure brute force



Endless Mike said:


> Except I think I recall him still having an aura around him while wearing the armor



I think that's what killed all those demons in the portal


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

Ben's thunderclap is made of cosmic radiation 
Air pressure =/= Ki


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Ben's thunderclap is made of cosmic radiation



Ben now has the ability to produce cosmic energies?

Ben = Galactus


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

It was a joke 
He got his power from cosmic radiation didn't he?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

He is a mutate, it unlocked his dormant genes


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

OK thanks.
Lets recap:
The debate ended a long time ago.
The laser speed argument derailed it for 5 pages.
Got bumped with the spiderman is slow strawman
Further derailed with the punch/shockwave = ki argument.
Lol. You were doing good with your arguments. Thanks for that. Good debate. Despite being off topic


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> He is a mutate, it unlocked his dormant genes



huh he had an X gene?



AceDick said:


> It was a joke
> He got his power from cosmic radiation didn't he?



i know and it was the original story I guess he's a latent mutant


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## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

Well not exactly, a mutant is born with an X-gene that is either activated immediately or as they grow older, a mutate has the potential for a genetic mutation like that but it has to be triggered by an external force to activate it. The Fantastic Four's mutations were triggered by the cosmic rays, the Hulk is also a mutate whose mutation was triggered by the Gamma Bomb


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

I was under the impression that Ben was an ordinary human. Eh, you learn new things everyday.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

He is. All humans are mutated to some extent. This is true in real life as well.


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

Are you talking about plutonium trace?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

Um, no, just genetic variation. Of course in Marvel the mutations that lead to superpowers are due to intervention by the Celestials and other alien races in Earth's past


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

Yeah. I am aware of the Celestial stuff and mutants.
Anyway,
The debate ended.
The laser is c argument got resolved.
If the shockwave is ki argument too got resolved, we can end this.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 8, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> you can't infer planetary durability when the mans inside were essentially soup held together by balls and a high pain threshold
> 
> Ben got fucking mulched the impressive part is that he wasn't sprayed everywhere nothing else- it's a solid soak feat that puts him beyond sensui's ability to kill



Ben surviving a single serious punch from Gladiator without his confidence affected- that terrible part of his character being something that always makes me question feats he performs against anyone- is still ridiculous if the claim is Ben isn't around Planet level durability. Glad explodes planets with a punch, so if you didn't get put in a coma or exploded into bloody red mist, you're surviving planet busting attacks. 



Ben Grimm said:


> I have never seen Ben tanking a planetary level attack. His fight against the Universal Champion was Ben's finest battle. The Champ was using mountain busting punches as stated with his confrontation with Sasquatch.
> 
> After three rounds of continuous mountain busting punches, Ben Grimm finally fell. He was still able to crawl back up to face his opponent again and he was barely able to stand.
> 
> ...



I already know all this, which is why I that Glad shit annoys me. Also, I detest gladiator.



Endless Mike said:


> Blastaar actually has enough power to make entire planets shake with his attacks



:sweat
what you trying to say about ben? How much power does it take to shake a planet anyway?


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

Gigatons of TNT equivalent should be enough to shake the planet as much as one centimeter. Not sure though.
Funnily enough, if we take the volume of damage that happened to the landscape in Yusuke vs Sensui, gigaton level figure is achieved.


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## NeoKurama (Oct 8, 2011)

I just read through this entire thread.  

Sensui can't harm the FF. I knew they were Marvel, so I most likely knew the outcome.


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

Thats a terrible logic.
F4 wins but not for being Marvel characters.
Aunt May is from Marvel. Lets pit her against Genkai. She will lose despite being from Marvel


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## NeoKurama (Oct 8, 2011)

The fuck? Now your analogy is terrible.

We know Aunt May is not superhero, nor fighter of what kind. We know who the FF4 are.


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

I was talking about your 'F4 wins for being from Marvel' part. Replace May with Peter.
Inb4 Golden oldie


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## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

AceDick said:


> Gigatons of TNT equivalent should be enough to shake the planet as much as one centimeter. Not sure though.
> Funnily enough, if we take the volume of damage that happened to the landscape in Yusuke vs Sensui, gigaton level figure is achieved.





The Indian Ocean earthquake in 2004 was some 30 gigatons, pretty much nobody out of the immediate area felt it, it was only damaging because it created the tsunami. You're either ignorant or lying.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 8, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> He is. All humans are mutated to some extent. This is true in real life as well.



similar explanation was given for spiderman a few years ago if memory serves



NeoKurama said:


> The fuck? Now your analogy is terrible.
> 
> We know Aunt May is not superhero, nor fighter of what kind. We know who the FF4 are.



Aunt May actually was a herald of Galactus once


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

Here.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

And that was an overall average, not literally shaking the entire planet as in everyone on Earth could feel it


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

It said the whole planet vibrated. No place escape movement


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## Endless Mike (Oct 8, 2011)

By a tiny amount with an overall displacement of a centimeter, as in the continental plates moved that much. That's not equivalent to the planet shaking. Did you feel the earth shaking under your feet when it happened? Stop trolling.


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

Hey not trolling. And I concede. Just interpreted the link wrongly. Hence the metadome thread


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> because it sort of matters - besides Yoki was also kind of wonky while it's clear Toguro did allot of stuff on raw strength both Sensui and Yusuke could of done that damage via their chi..rather than pure brute force



Given AceDick appears to have conceded, just take this to profile messages or something.

Your explanation still makes no sense to me after getting some sleep.


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## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

It makes no sense to me either.
Toguro can do it.
Yusuke can do it.
Raizen can do it.
Why can't Sensui?
Heck he outright said that he used his aura to form his armour by converting it to tangible matter.
Btw, the actual debate ended in page 4 I think. After that it was randon off topic debates


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## Cableguy15 (Oct 8, 2011)

Not to mention that Sensui's shockwave looks exactly like what has already been stated to be a shockwave in the series, only larger:

This
This

^^^
What a stated shockwave looks like in YYH.

This

^^^
Sensui's shockwave.

It also makes far more sense in the context of things.

He throws a powerful uppercut and it creates a destructive shockwave.

or...

He throws an uppercut and it creates a... ki blast? 

It looks like a shockwave, acts like a shockwave (Collapsing with overpressures), makes sense if it's a shockwave.

Occam's razor says it's a shockwave.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 9, 2011)

Cableguy15 said:


> He throws an uppercut and it creates a... ki blast?
> 
> It looks like a shockwave, acts like a shockwave (Collapsing with overpressures), makes sense if it's a shockwave.
> 
> Occam's razor says it's a shockwave.



not a chi blast an energy spike a shockwave based off of chi as opposed to 'muscle movement" which has been impossible since the first ep (physical strength capping out at a certain level and needing reishi to boost it0


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## AceDick (Oct 9, 2011)

Then explain how Toguro did it. And Yusuke too.
Heck, if physical strength caps out at a certain level, explain how Toguro lifted a 4000 ton ring. He doesn't use ki attacks after all.


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## Cableguy15 (Oct 9, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> not a chi blast an energy spike a shockwave based off of chi as opposed to 'muscle movement" which has been impossible since the first ep (physical strength capping out at a certain level and needing reishi to boost it0



Oh, I see what you're saying. That YYH character's physical strength depends on reiki/youki/seikou-ki, right?

That's pretty much true, as the fight against Chu demonstrated. Once they were both depleted, they both only had "Human strength" left, which proves their above average power came from their respective energies.

I thought you were trying to argue the shockwave was just some generic energy blast, my mistake. 



			
				AceDick said:
			
		

> Then explain how Toguro did it. And Yusuke too.
> Heck, if physical strength caps out at a certain level, explain how Toguro lifted a 4000 ton ring. He doesn't use ki attacks after all.



He's basically just saying that strength in YYH is not separate from energy. In other words, they're not using their physical strength without putting any kind of energy into it, which is pretty much true.

Strength is strength no matter how you look at it though. Not sure what relevance it has to the thread, but how that strength is derived shouldn't make any difference unless I'm missing something here.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 9, 2011)

Cableguy15 said:


> Oh, I see what you're saying. That YYH character's physical strength depends on reiki/youki/seikou-ki, right?
> 
> That's pretty much true, as the fight against Chu demonstrated. Once they were both depleted, they both only had "Human strength" left, which proves their above average power came from their respective energies.
> 
> I thought you were trying to argue the shockwave was just some generic energy blast, my mistake.



no, no I wasn't that was pretty much exactly what I was arguing



Cableguy15 said:


> He's basically just saying that strength in YYH is not separate from energy. In other words, they're not using their physical strength without putting any kind of energy into it, which is pretty much true.
> 
> Strength is strength no matter how you look at it though. Not sure what relevance it has to the thread, *but how that strength is derived shouldn't make any difference unless I'm missing something here.*



it's good for clarification's sake and efficiency plus I've seen once or twice make "yusuke on pure physical strength" vs match which left me kind of 'wha"


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## AceDick (Oct 9, 2011)

It IS pure physical strength. He just get his strength from demonic energy.
You get yours from energy of nutrients.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 9, 2011)

AceDick said:


> It IS pure physical strength. He just get his strength from demonic energy.
> You get yours from energy of nutrients.



that's like saying Iron Fist can drop a hellcarrier with out his chi because he totally is strong enough to do it with it


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