# 2nd Mizukage vs Tobirama vs Mu



## Luftwaffles (Sep 12, 2013)

Location: Bamboo Forest
Distance: 40 meters apart, barely LoS
Knowledge: Basic Kage knowledge
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: Edo Tensei is restricted to Part 1 Hashirama _feats_.

*Scenario: *

Tobirama: Starts out with his brother released.
2nd Mizukage: Starts out with his Clam and Joki Boi released.
Mu: Starts out invisible and hovering 5 meters in the air.

Everyone is allowed to use their anime feats.

Happy debating and don't forget to vote! 

EDIT: _You may powerscale Tobirama's Suiton ninjutsu to Mei's. _


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## Trojan (Sep 12, 2013)

shouldn't Tobirama's edo be weaker than Oro's in part 1?

those 3 are on the same level more or less! 
I think any one of them can win against the other extremely hard difficult. 
or they may end up killing each other!

but I'll vote for Tobirama because he's a Hokage + I like him. lol


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 12, 2013)

Elia said:


> shouldn't Tobirama's edo be weaker than Oro's in part 1?
> 
> those 3 are on the same level more or less!
> I think any one of them can win against the other extremely hard difficult.
> ...


I honestly don't know how Tobirama's Edo Tensei stacks up to Oro's, that's why I restricted it to Part 1 Hashirama's abilities, the Edo Tensei Oro used to avoid any conflict between debaters.

That and Kishimoto retcons so much shit that I really don't know what to expect  

Thanks for your vote.


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## Ghost (Sep 12, 2013)

Giving this to Muu or Tobirama. The other Kages should know about Hiraishin and with Muu's invisibility and Mizukage's genjutsu they'll be hard to tag.



Elia said:


> but *I'll vote for Tobirama because* he's a Hokage + *I like him*. lol



Pretty much sums up your NBD history.


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## Legendary Itachi (Sep 12, 2013)

I would give this to Trollkage. Clam Genjutsu + Joki Boy is the haxxest combo in here, neither Mu nor Tobirama show special sensing to target the clam accurately under Genjutsu, not to say Joki Boy wears them down when they're fighting each other in death and fail to find the real body of Trollkage.


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## Trojan (Sep 12, 2013)

Waffle said:


> I honestly don't know how Tobirama's Edo Tensei stacks up to Oro's, that's why I restricted it to Part 1 Hashirama's abilities, the Edo Tensei Oro used to avoid any conflict between debaters.
> 
> That and Kishimoto retcons so much shit that I really don't know what to expect
> 
> Thanks for your vote.



Well, according to Kabuto Oro's edo (part 1) is better, so perhaps his summons are a bit
stronger, and therefore, Hashi will be even weaker than he was in part 1!

I agree with the second line. lol 



saikyou said:


> Pretty much sums up your NBD history.



oh, you think so? 
That's so sweet! :amazed


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## J★J♥ (Sep 12, 2013)

Tobirama gets killed first.
Then Muu spams jinton till he kills clam and trollkage and without info Jokieboy fucks him up.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 12, 2013)

I've made an important edit regarding Tobirama. Keep in mind that anime feats are allowed.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> I would give this to Trollkage. Clam Genjutsu + Joki Boy is the haxxest combo in here, neither Mu nor Tobirama show special sensing to target the clam accurately under Genjutsu, not to say Joki Boy wears them down when they're fighting each other in death and fail to find the real body of Trollkage.



The clam hides in plain sight. Tobirama has the ability to track its presence with his finger sensing jutsu. Tobirama is a horrible match up for Trollkage. He can easily find the clam and the real Trollkage with finger tracking and since Trollkage is already using jokey boi, it means he is weakened and easily defeated. Jokey Boi can't hurt an edo tensei and Tobirama with sensing and hiraishin can evade its attack any time

Tobirama defeats Muu. Muu's invisibility is overrated. Kakashi said one can detect the presence of a hidden ninja through air current. Plus, Muu's jinton does not become invisible. So, in other words, Tobirama can always sense it and use hiraishin to evade. Kage bunshin can be used to confuse Muu if he goes for CQC while he is invisible


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## Turrin (Sep 12, 2013)

Nindaime Mizukage is taken out early on by Tobirama using Finger Detection to find the clam and destroy it. From there it's only a matter of time before Mizukage is take down by Mu or Tobirama's attacks. 

Tobirama vs Mu is a much more interesting match up. Tobirama does not have anyway to find an invisible flying Mu. However between Sensing, KB, and FTG Tobirama will also be difficult to be pinned down. The match will simply come down to who can use their skills with the great strategic skill. If Tobirama can get Mu to attack a KB or Tensei  revealing Mu's position enough to launch a successive attack of his own than he'll win. If Mu is able to launch an effective ambush with his stealth or  trick Tobirama into believing he's won through body splitting launching a follow up ambush, than he'll win. I could also see a scenario where Mu stabs Tobirama dealing him a fatal injury and than Tobirama suicide with Tandem Explosive tags blowing them both up resulting in a double KO. 

Really it could go ether way, but if I have to favor one I'd probably give the slight edge to Tobirama, especially with Hashirama as his Tensei here (even if Hashi is limited to Part I Feats).


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## Bonly (Sep 12, 2013)

This is a tough one. 

Tobi won't be able to find The French dude thanks to his genjutsu which sensors couldn't find the real French dude+Clam as well. Tobi also won't be able to sense Muu who was able to avoid sensing by HQ sensors who were shocked that such a thing is possible, so unless Muu becomes visible, Tobi won't find him. I can see Tobi getting taken out by a blindside eventually and I find Muu to have the slightly better portrayal then The French dude which has me thinking Muu could win more times then not. Either that or they kill each other, again.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2013)

Can anyone explain to me how Muu's jutsu is different from the jutsu in Kakashi's Gaiden? It is the same exact jutsu. Turn invisible but Muu adds another jutsu on top of it, chakra cloaking. That's it. 

We know that when one moves even when they are invisible, air current gives them away according to Kakashi. If Muu tries to get close to anyone, the air current will give him position away


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 12, 2013)

> Nindaime Mizukage is taken out early on by Tobirama using Finger Detection to find the clam and destroy it. From there it's only a matter of time before Mizukage is take down by Mu or Tobirama's attacks.


Assuming Joki Boi is just going to stay there and watch? :sanji


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## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2013)

Waffle said:


> Assuming Joki Boi is just going to stay there and watch? :sanji



Assuming Joki Boi can be effective against hiraishin + kage bunshin? One bunshin and edo tensei zombie Hashirama to keep him busy while the real body finds and kills nidaime. Heck, edo tensei Hashirama uses bringer of darkness genjutsu and joki boi becomes usesless since it won't be able to see who to target while Tobirama is free to target Trollkage by tracking his location with finger sensing ninjutsu


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## Turrin (Sep 12, 2013)

Waffle said:


> Assuming Joki Boi is just going to stay there and watch? :sanji


Joki Boi wouldn't stand there and watch, but it's really got nothing on Tobirama and Mu. Joki Boi can't find invisible Mu or reach a flying Mu. Joki Boi is fast but not faster than Tobirama with Sensing + Shunshin/FTG. On the other hand Mizukage is left barely able to move when he uses Joki Boi against two Shinobi who are top sensors. It's not going to take long for Mu or Tobirama to find Mizukage's location and finish him off. 



Senjuclan said:


> Can anyone explain to me how Muu's jutsu is different from the jutsu in Kakashi's Gaiden? It is the same exact jutsu. Turn invisible but Muu adds another jutsu on top of it, chakra cloaking. That's it.
> 
> We know that when one moves even when they are invisible, air current gives them away according to Kakashi. If Muu tries to get close to anyone, the air current will give him position away


The only thing Mu's Jutsu and Taiseki's have in common is that they are use by Iwagukuru Shinobi and make someone invisible. At first this might seem like a deep connection but it really isn't. For example Minato's Shiki Fuujin and Minato's Hakke no Fūin Shiki, are both Fuuinjutsu utilized by Konohagakuru shinobi to seal the same entity, but they are totally different Jutsu. So there is nothing really there to suggest the two Jutsu are one and the same.

In terms of mechanics Mu's invisibility  works differently than Taiseki as it's shown the ability to erase Mu's presence entirely, including chakra. Taiseki's ability was seen through specifically because it did not erase the presence of his chakra which was picked up by Obito. 

The Air current is another example. Taiseki's Jutsu did not erase this aspect of his presence allowing a relatively newbie Jonin like Kakashi to pick up on it and defend himself. However Mu's own student & Tsuchikage Onoki could not detect any change in air currents to alert him to Mu presence right behind him and was only saved by Gaara's Sand Detection:
Link removed

So Mu have erases this aspect  of his presence as well.

The idea of Mu utilizing 2 Jutsu -- Taiseki's and another to erase the the presence of his chakra -- is fine in theory, but I think it clearly strays away from the author's intent. Not once did Kishi make any move to diffrentiate Mu's null-man ability as 2 Jutsu instead of 1, and every time Mu went Null-man-mode (so to speak) it was portrayed as the usage of a single Jutsu; the invisibility Jutsu. Additionally there would have to be a third jutsu in play that erases his presence in other ways such as the air-currents. I think it's much simpler and closer to what the author intended if we assume it's just a more advanced invisibility Jutsu than Taiseki's, rather than assuming Mu is stacking 3 or more jutsu to get his "null-man" effect. Not that it really matters, since whether its 1, 2, 3, etc... Jutsu, the air current detection method is clearly rendered in-effective by one of the Jutsu Mu is using.a


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## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The only thing Mu's Jutsu and Taiseki's have in common is that they are use by Iwagukuru Shinobi and make someone invisible. At first this might seem like a deep connection but it really isn't. For example Minato's Shiki Fuujin and Minato's Hakke no Fūin Shiki, are both Fuuinjutsu utilized by Konohagakuru shinobi to seal the same entity, but they are totally different Jutsu. So there is nothing really there to suggest the two Jutsu are one and the same.



The mechanics and results of the jutsu are different while Taiseki's jutsu mechanics and result is the exact same thing as Muu's



Turrin said:


> In terms of mechanics Mu's invisibility  works differently than Taiseki as it's shown the ability to erase Mu's presence entirely, including chakra. Taiseki's ability was seen through specifically because it did not erase the presence of his chakra which was picked up by Obito.



One cannot erase chakra, that is simply figurative speech. Without chakra, one dies as the last chapter showed again. Muu is a sensor, he cloaks his chakra. We have seen Karin do the same thing. occam's razor demans that we conclude that Muu is cloaking his chakra and turning invisible not erasing his chakra, which makes no sense. No chakra = death. Muu has chakra, therefore any dojoutsu will see through his jutsu while chakra sensors won't detect his presence as the manga said



Turrin said:


> The Air current is another example. Taiseki's Jutsu did not erase this aspect of his presence allowing a relatively newbie Jonin like Kakashi to pick up on it and defend himself. However Mu's own student & Tsuchikage Onoki could not detect any change in air currents to alert him to Mu presence right behind him and was only saved by Gaara's Sand Detection:
> _alot _



Makes no sense. Muu moves, therefore he creates friction. He does not control the universe. 



Turrin said:


> So Mu have erases this aspect  of his presence as well.
> 
> The idea of Mu utilizing 2 Jutsu -- Taiseki's and another to erase the the presence of his chakra -- is fine in theory, but I think it clearly strays away from the author's intent. Not once did Kishi make any move to diffrentiate Mu's null-man ability as 2 Jutsu instead of 1, and every time Mu went Null-man-mode (so to speak) it was portrayed as the usage of a single Jutsu; the invisibility Jutsu. Additionally there would have to be a third jutsu in play that erases his presence in other ways such as the air-currents. I think it's much simpler and closer to what the author intended if we assume it's just a more advanced invisibility Jutsu than Taiseki's, rather than assuming Mu is stacking 3 or more jutsu to get his "null-man" effect. Not that it really matters, since whether its 1, 2, 3, etc... Jutsu, the air current detection method is clearly rendered in-effective by one of the Jutsu Mu is using.a



First of all, you are the one creating a null-man mode not Kishi. The idea that he is using one jutsu is not mentioned either. Kishi just says that he is invisible and sensors can't sense him either. It is more sensible to conclude that he turns invisible and hides his chakra than to assume that there exists a jutsu that can somehow remove chakra from the body without killing someone. If one such jutsu existed, Kishi would have hyped it more


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## Turrin (Sep 12, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> The mechanics and results of the jutsu are different while Taiseki's jutsu mechanics and result is the exact same thing as Muu's


The results of Hakke Seal and Shiki Fuujin were the same, both sealed the Kyuubi. Both seals even look the same. 

In Mu's case the results are only the same as Taiseki's Jutsu, if we assume other Jutsu are creating the additional effects of erasing the presence of wind currents and chakra.  So you don't have the info necessary to claim the results are the same. 



> One cannot erase chakra..etc...


Actually I said erases the chakra's presence, not erasing the chakra itself. 



> muu is a sensor, he cloaks his chakra. We have seen Karin do the same thing.


The problem is that no other sensors has demonstrated the ability to hide their chakra besides Karin & Karin is not your average sensor she is an special Uzamaki, who Orochimaru may have experimented on even further. So we have no basis to claim this chakra hiding is a common ability among sensors. Additionally when Karin was using her hidding chakra ability she had to sit still and not use other Jutsu, even attempting to sense would give her away. In Mu's case he was moving around, using the flight Jutsu, and if invisibility is a separate Jutsu than that one as well. So Karin's display really does not fit with what we've seen from Mu to begin with.



> occam's razor demans that we conclude that Muu is cloaking his chakra and turning invisible not erasing his chakra, which makes no sense. No chakra = death. Muu has chakra, therefore any dojoutsu will see through his jutsu while chakra sensors won't detect his presence as the manga said


Actually orcamz's razor would be that Mu is simply using a more advance invisibility Jutsu. That is a very simple and extremely probably answer. However your answer to how Mu achieves his "null-man" status is relying on the the assumptions that:

1. Mu is using a secondary Jutsu or ability not attributed in the manga to his character
2. This secondary Jutsu or ability is the one Karin displayed to hide her chakra
3. That hiding ones chakra is an ability common among sensors
4. That Karin's hiding chakra ability can be used in a totally different way than she utilized it in the manga
5. That Mu is employing yet a third Jutsu to cloak other parts of his presence like air currents
6. That Mu is able to stack using 3 unique Jutsu that are running in the background while at the same time he is still able to cast additional Jutsu like flight

This is vastly more complex answer, than simply believing he is using a different Jutsu than Taiseki.



> Makes no sense. Muu moves, therefore he creates friction. He does not control the universe.


I lol at trying to apply science to the Naruto-world. There are plenty of Jutsu that defy all scientific reason and even common sense in the manga. So this argument really does not fly, when we are directly shown that Mu can't be detected this way. I mean do you honestly think if the Tsuchikage and Mu's own student could not detect Mu this way someone else, like say newbie Jonin Kakashi could. And that Mu would have gotten such fame for being undetectable if such a simply method worked. If anything makes no sense it would be that assumption.



> First of all, you are the one creating a null-man mode not Kishi.


I didn't create anything, I was using a turn of phrase to describe when Mu is invisible and made that apparent by saying: "So to speak". Your really splitting hairs here.



> The idea that he is using one jutsu is not mentioned either. Kishi just says that he is invisible and sensors can't sense him either


It's implied because we are shown Mu casting 1 Jutsu and than he's good to go. We never see Mu utilizing multiple techniques or Kishi even making the process of Mu becoming undetectable seem like it takes such a great amount of time where Mu has to cast several different Jutsu.



> It is more sensible to conclude that he turns invisible and hides his chakra than to assume that there exists a jutsu that can somehow remove chakra from the body without killing someone.


Again I did not say it removes the chakra from the body, I said it erases the presence of the Chakra. Mu is simply using a more advanced Jutsu than Taiseki. While Taiseki's Jutsu makes just his physical body invisible/undetectable, Mu's Jutsu makes everything about his presence including his chakra invisible/undetectable. It's that simple, while again your explanation is built on one theory to support another theory to support another theory, etc... I (& others) are just saying there exists a more advanced invisibility Jutsu, which is 1 assumption vs the 6+ assumptions required for your idea to be true.


Edit: but ether way this is kind of irrelevant since we know from the battles Mu was in that the win detection thing is not going to work, whether it's multiple jutsu or just one


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## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The results of Hakke Seal and Shiki Fuujin were the same, both sealed the Kyuubi. Both seals even look the same.



The mechanics are different therefore the jutsus are different. In the case of Muu, I see no difference



Turrin said:


> In Mu's case the results are only the same as Taiseki's Jutsu, if we assume other Jutsu are creating the additional effects of erasing the presence of wind currents and chakra.  So you don't have the info necessary to claim the results are the same.



1. You are assuming that Muu's jutsu erases the presence of wind current. The manga does not say this
2. The assumption that he hides his chakra is logical given that he is the tools to have such an ability and it is illogical to erase the presence of chakra



Turrin said:


> Actually I said erases the chakra's presence, not erasing the chakra itself.



Presence is the state of being present, meaning the state of being there. If Muu erases the presence of his chakra, he erases his chakra being there, which means he dies. This is illogical by Kishi's physics



Turrin said:


> The problem is that no other sensors has demonstrated the ability to hide their chakra besides Karin & Karin is not your average sensor she is an special Uzamaki, who Orochimaru may have experimented on even further. So we have no basis to claim this chakra hiding is a common ability among sensors. Additionally when Karin was using her hidding chakra ability she had to sit still and not use other Jutsu, even attempting to sense would give her away. In Mu's case he was moving around, using the flight Jutsu, and if invisibility is a separate Jutsu than that one as well. So Karin's display really does not fit with what we've seen from Mu to begin with.



Muu is not an average sensor. He can sense from kilometers away, tell the provenance of a shinobi from his chakra and even tell that Gaara and his father are related. He has better sensing feats than Karin



Turrin said:


> Actually orcamz's razor would be that Mu is simply using a more advance invisibility Jutsu. That is a very simple and extremely probably answer. However your answer to how Mu achieves his "null-man" status is relying on the the assumptions that:
> 
> 1. Mu is using a secondary Jutsu or ability not attributed in the manga to his character
> 2. This secondary Jutsu or ability is the one Karin displayed to hide her chakra
> ...



You are making it complex when it is very simple. Muu does not stop affecting air current and Muu hides his chakra like Karin, an inferior sensor by feats, does and uses Taiseki's jutsu. Simple as that



Turrin said:


> I lol at trying to apply science to the Naruto-world. There are plenty of Jutsu that defy all scientific reason and even common sense in the manga. So this argument really does not fly, when we are directly shown that Mu can't be detected this way. I mean do you honestly think if the Tsuchikage and Mu's own student could not detect Mu this way someone else, like say newbie Jonin Kakashi could. And that Mu would have gotten such fame for being undetectable if such a simply method worked. If anything makes no sense it would be that assumption.



Kakashi is a genius and Oonoki has never been implied to be one. So, newbie jonin Kakashi being capable of feats of deduction that Oonoki has not shown is not surprising. 

Also, my argument is not based on real world logic but manga observation. Kakashi is a character in this manga

Finally, even though Kakashi knew that air current would give away Taiseki's location it did not help him much. The sharingan made the ultimate difference. Muu's jutsu is more awesome because sensors can't detect him



Turrin said:


> I didn't create anything, I was using a turn of phrase to describe when Mu is invisible and made that apparent by saying: "So to speak". Your really splitting hairs here.



Point remains. Kishi never said that it was one jutsu so you can't blame me for claiming that it is a combo jutsu when the manga never said it was one jutsu either



Turrin said:


> It's implied because we are shown Mu casting 1 Jutsu and than he's good to go. We never see Mu utilizing multiple techniques or Kishi even making the process of Mu becoming undetectable seem like it takes such a great amount of time where Mu has to cast several different Jutsu.



As if hiding one's chakra takes time or effort 



Turrin said:


> Again I did not say it removes the chakra from the body, I said it erases the presence of the Chakra. Mu is simply using a more advanced Jutsu than Taiseki. While Taiseki's Jutsu makes just his physical body invisible/undetectable, Mu's Jutsu makes everything about his presence including his chakra invisible/undetectable. It's that simple, while again your explanation is built on one theory to support another theory to support another theory, etc... I (& others) are just saying there exists a more advanced invisibility Jutsu, which is 1 assumption vs the 6+ assumptions required for your idea to be true.



One cannot erase the presence of chakra. If chakra is present, the sharingan will see it. One can however jam sensors from being able to sense. Many a people do it not just Karin



Turrin said:


> Edit: but ether way this is kind of irrelevant since we know from the battles Mu was in that the win detection thing is not going to work, whether it's multiple jutsu or just one



We don't know that. We know that Oonoki was unable to detect him is all


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## tracytracy22 (Sep 12, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> The clam hides in plain sight. Tobirama has the ability to track its presence with his finger sensing jutsu. Tobirama is a horrible match up for Trollkage. He can easily find the clam and the real Trollkage with finger tracking and since Trollkage is already using jokey boi, it means he is weakened and easily defeated. Jokey Boi can't hurt an edo tensei and Tobirama with sensing and hiraishin can evade its attack any time



I dont think it would be this simple. And couldnt the 2nd Mizukage hide the real joki boi within his mirage? I'm leaning towards Muu atm.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 12, 2013)

tracytracy22 said:


> I dont think it would be this simple. And couldnt the 2nd Mizukage hide the real joki boi within his mirage? I'm leaning towards Muu atm.



How would it be more complicated? The clam is on the ground = the location of the clam can be easily found by finger tracking which does not rely on sensing. 

As for Muu winning how does he actually kill Tobirama? Jinton won't help him since Tobirama can use kage bunshin and FTG.


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## tracytracy22 (Sep 12, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> How would it be more complicated? The clam is on the ground = the location of the clam can be easily found by finger tracking which does not rely on sensing.
> 
> As for Muu winning how does he actually kill Tobirama? Jinton won't help him since Tobirama can use kage bunshin and FTG.



I understand what your saying about finding the clam thing but its not so easy when you have joki boi to wory about. And the fact that the real one could be diguised within the mirage just makes things a little harder. I agree he's a bad match up but I dont think it would be as simple as you make it out to be.

As for your 2nd point, the 2nd thing could be said for Tobirama. Mu could just stay up in the air all day. He'll have nothing to worry about. And Onoki's body guard...that fat one...said his jinton is capable of destroying the turtle island. It aint that small so its gotta have a large area of effect. But FTG + clones is a good point but you still aren't convincing me. Also, Tobirama is likely to go after the mizukage first, so while he's cofused on Mr. Clam, Mu could just get him while he's not paying attention.

Btw dont bother replying as I wont be bale to get back to you in at least 3-5 hours.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 12, 2013)

I reckon a combination of finger tracking, Tobirama's exceptional chakra sensing abilities and using Hashirama's high area of effect mokuton abilities and exploding his edo tensei body would, sooner or later, eliminate the Nidaime Mizukage's clam and himself. Hashirama may be limited to his part I feats, but even his part I incarnation was fairly impressive in the way of jutsu radius and overall range. Furthermore, while I believe Tobirama would be able to hit the clam - be it through accurate sensing or by randomly exploding Hashirama - I don't think the Nidaime Mizukage's jōki bōi could do the same to Tobirama. It's explosions are fairly powerful, but between suiton: suijinheki (assuming we scale up his part I feats with it) and Hashirama's mokuton, I don't think it would be able to reach it. Even if a defense isn't possible, Tobirama has hiraishin to move around the field with.

Mū is the real challenge here, I think. Chakra sensing probably won't be able to detect him, and because of his flight, hitting him randomly with large scale jutsu would be more difficult too. And considering the nature of his abilities, I imagine putting up a defense to soak damage isn't an option here either. However, Tobirama also has access to extremely powerful genjutsu (Hiruzen didn't even bother trying to break it, and he has a 5 in genjutsu), which is something Mū has yet to display any resistance to. With the genjutsu set up, Mū's accuracy with jinton would be significantly lowered, while Tobirama can still sense Mū for when he drops the invisibility and aims with jinton. Even if the illusion fails, there's still a brief period where Mū is visible. When he prepares for jinton. With his sensing and hiraishin, he should be able to land a hit on Mū during this period of time, eventually.  Honestly, considering how intelligent Tobirama is, I don't see it being so far-fetched that he would come up with some sort of strategy to defeat Mū. He's got a myriad of tools available here, after all.

This is going by feats, though. Portrayal-wise, Tobirama is on another level to the two.


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## Turrin (Sep 12, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> The mechanics are different therefore the jutsus are different. In the case of Muu, I see no difference


You have no proof that the mechanics are the same. Your assuming they are, just like many people assumed Shiki Fuujin was the Fuuinjutsu used to seal the Kyuubi in Naruto.



> You are assuming that Muu's jutsu erases the presence of wind current. The manga does not say this


However the manga shows it.



> The assumption that he hides his chakra is logical given that he is the tools to have such an ability and it is illogical to erase the presence of chakra


Okay, so again you have no proof of the mechanics of Mu's Jutsu and are just assuming they are the same as Taiseki's.



> Presence is the state of being present, meaning the state of being there. If Muu erases the presence of his chakra, he erases his chakra being there, which means he dies. This is illogical by Kishi's physics


I think it was pretty explicit that I was using presence in this sense:

Presence - "someone or something that is seen or noticed in a particular place, area, etc."

Your just attacking a straw-man, to try and stray away from the real point i'm making.



> Muu is not an average sensor. He can sense from kilometers away, tell the provenance of a shinobi from his chakra and even tell that Gaara and his father are related. He has better sensing feats than Karin


You miss the point, the point isn't about sensor skill so there is no reason to even get into the discussion. The point is that the manga has never established a link between skill at sensing and ability to hide ones chakra. Just because Karin is a sensor and has the ability to hide her chakra does not make it an ability granted to all sensors (or even all sensors of a certain skill level), just like all sensors don't have the ability to heal people by letting them bit him/her. 



> You are making it complex when it is very simple. Muu does not stop affecting air current and Muu hides his chakra like Karin, an inferior sensor by feats, does and uses Taiseki's jutsu. Simple as that


I'm not making it anymore complex, i'm just mapping out the amount of assumptions needed to reach your conclusion. However if you think your conclusion does not require these assumptions than all you have to do is show when Kishi stated that:

1. Mu is using a secondary Jutsu or ability not attributed in the manga to his character
2. This secondary Jutsu or ability is the one Karin displayed to hide her chakra
3. That hiding ones chakra is an ability common among sensors
4. That Karin's hiding chakra ability can be used in a totally different way than she utilized it in the manga
5. That Mu is employing yet a third Jutsu to cloak other parts of his presence like air currents or something else that prevents air-current detection, whatever
6. That Mu is able to stack using 3 unique Jutsu that are running in the background while at the same time he is still able to cast additional Jutsu like flight

If you provide an actual statement confirming of anyone of these things than I will agree I was wrong to call it an assumption. But if you can't find said statements, maybe you should re-consider how overly complex your really making your argument.



> Kakashi is a genius and Oonoki has never been implied to be one. So, newbie jonin Kakashi being capable of feats of deduction that Oonoki has not shown is not surprising


You must know this is a dumb argument right? Onoki is 70-80 year old Tsuchikage that alone should tell you that he'd be aware of such a basic concepts of paying attention to sound and air currents in-order to track an invisible target. These are not complex concepts that require a genius to understand and a genius 10-13 year old who was just promoted to Jonin is still nothing compared to a Kage with years of experience. 

However what makes this argument truly dumb is the idea that Onoki coming from the village where this jutsu came to prominence and in-fact being trained by it's more prominent users, would not know such a basic concept is what makes this a dumb argument.

But wait what makes it even more dumb is that Inoichi was telepathically connected to Onoki, but apparently no one not even Shikaku the master strategist could conceive of this really basic concept, that 10-13 year old Kakashi knew right away. 

But wait what makes this ridiculous dumb is the fact that Mu was not mentally bound by Kabuto he was free to speak, so if Air-Currents could have helped Onoki detect Mu, why wouldn't Mu tell Onoki? But Oh I guess Gaiden Kakashi knew more about Mu's own jutsu than Mu lol

Cut the BS man. Clearly whatever Jutsu Mu uses makes Gaiden Kakashi style tracking impractical enough where even the guy who knew Mu & his jutsu best couldn't avoid being ambushed.



> Also, my argument is not based on real world logic but manga observation. Kakashi is a character in this manga


I was referring to the part of your argument about friction.



> Finally, even though Kakashi knew that air current would give away Taiseki's location it did not help him much. The sharingan made the ultimate difference. Muu's jutsu is more awesome because sensors can't detect him


The point is you said, "If Muu tries to get close to anyone, the air current will give him position away".

However we have blatant manga proof that when Mu got close to ambush even his own student was not made aware of his presence via air currents. 

So whether you want to say that's because the Air-current method sucks or Mu's Jutsu doesn't give away his position so easily. I don't really care. What I do care about is that you acknowledge the idea you were trying to ship that if Mu got close to someone they'd be able to tell via air currents is false.



> Point remains. Kishi never said that it was one jutsu so you can't blame me for claiming that it is a combo jutsu when the manga never said it was one jutsu either


I did not blame you for anything regarding the assertion of a combo instead of a singular Jutsu.  I merely said I think that it's an exceedingly complex way to resolve the issue of how Mu goes into his "null-man-mode", when in the manga it was simply portrayed as him going "null-man" the moment he activated his invisibility. I still stand by that., because it's the truth. You are shipping a more complex explanation than the one I am.



> As if hiding one's chakra takes time or effort


In Karins case she had to sit there and not move. She couldn't even user her own abilities like sensing otherwise hiding her chakra wouldn't work. So yes it has been implied to take a considerable amount of effort and has never been portrayed as such an effortless ability where a person hiding their chakra can move around casting other jutsu and remain hidden.

And yes the ability does take some time to activate, there is no indication it's instant.



> One cannot erase the presence of chakra. If chakra is present, the sharingan will see it. One can however jam sensors from being able to sense. Many a people do it not just Karin


When was it stated someone can't make their chakra invisible? With all the crazy abilities in this manga your doubting that someone can do this, come on now. Hell even Taiseki's jutsu has an unexplained quality to it. I mean the Jutsu is explained as bending light around the caster, but somehow it also erases the casters scent. I mean WTF does that have to with bending light. Kishi does not care about these specifics.



> We don't know that. We know that Oonoki was unable to detect him is all


It's ether we believe some nonsensical BS about Gaiden Kakashi being more knowledgeable about Mu's Jutsu than a 70 Tsuchikage that happens to be Mu's student & Inoichi/Shikaku/alliance HQ, & Mu himself.


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## tracytracy22 (Sep 12, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I reckon a combination of finger tracking, Tobirama's exceptional chakra sensing abilities and using Hashirama's high area of effect mokuton abilities and exploding his edo tensei body would, sooner or later, eliminate the Nidaime Mizukage's clam and himself. Hashirama may be limited to his part I feats, but even his part I incarnation was fairly impressive in the way of jutsu radius and overall range. Furthermore, while I believe Tobirama would be able to hit the clam - be it through accurate sensing or by randomly exploding Hashirama - I don't think the Nidaime Mizukage's jōki bōi could do the same to Tobirama. It's explosions are fairly powerful, but between suiton: suijinheki (assuming we scale up his part I feats with it) and Hashirama's mokuton, I don't think it would be able to reach it. Even if a defense isn't possible, Tobirama has hiraishin to move around the field with.
> 
> Mū is the real challenge here, I think. Chakra sensing probably won't be able to detect him, and because of his flight, hitting him randomly with large scale jutsu would be more difficult too. And considering the nature of his abilities, I imagine putting up a defense to soak damage isn't an option here either. However, Tobirama also has access to extremely powerful genjutsu (Hiruzen didn't even bother trying to break it, and he has a 5 in genjutsu), which is something Mū has yet to display any resistance to. With the genjutsu set up, Mū's accuracy with jinton would be significantly lowered, while Tobirama can still sense Mū for when he drops the invisibility and aims with jinton. Even if the illusion fails, there's still a brief period where Mū is visible. When he prepares for jinton. With his sensing and hiraishin, he should be able to land a hit on Mū during this period of time, eventually.  Honestly, considering how intelligent Tobirama is, I don't see it being so far-fetched that he would come up with some sort of strategy to defeat Mū. He's got a myriad of tools available here, after all.
> 
> This is going by feats, though. Portrayal-wise, Tobirama is on another level to the two.



This is a nice write-up. Btw I'd just like to point out Tobirama has shown no genjutsu - what your refering to is anime only. In the manga, only hashirama uses the bringer of darkness genjutsu.


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## Luftwaffles (Sep 13, 2013)

Anime feats are allowed tracytracy22.

Has anyone taken into consideration Trollkage's ?


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## tracytracy22 (Sep 13, 2013)

Waffle said:


> Anime feats are allowed tracytracy22.
> 
> Has anyone taken into consideration Trollkage's ?



Oh right I'm really sorry! I completely mised that part 

Well that makes things kind of interesting, because in the anime, its the 2nd Mizukage's mirage that was using the balloon jutsu and killing the shinobi. The real one was on top of the clam the whole time. Unless it was actually the real one attacking from a long distance. If thats the case well it would definitely increase his chances against Tobirama...he wouldnt be able to locate the real joki boi because the 2nd can just hid the real ones location within the mirage. What a strange genjutsu....


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## Senjuclan (Sep 13, 2013)

tracytracy22 said:


> Oh right I'm really sorry! I completely mised that part
> 
> Well that makes things kind of interesting, because in the anime, its the 2nd Mizukage's mirage that was using the balloon jutsu and killing the shinobi. The real one was on top of the clam the whole time. Unless it was actually the real one attacking from a long distance. If thats the case well it would definitely increase his chances against Tobirama...he wouldnt be able to locate the real joki boi because the 2nd can just hid the real ones location within the mirage. What a strange genjutsu....



You are forgetting that anime feats allowed means that Tobirama can now use bringer of darkness. So, when he does Trollkage won't be able to see anything. However, even in the mirage Tobirama will still be able to use his finger sensing jutsu to detect where Trollkage really is.


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## tracytracy22 (Sep 13, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> You are forgetting that anime feats allowed means that Tobirama can now use bringer of darkness. So, when he does Trollkage won't be able to see anything. However, even in the mirage Tobirama will still be able to use his finger sensing jutsu to detect where Trollkage really is.



Couldnt he just break the illusion though? If so, then him finding the real mizukage might not be as easy as you make it out to be. The mizukage can hide the location of the real joki boi and even with clones and ftg, it would be difficult to avoid. All he would see is the mirage joki boi and the real one would be hitting him without him even realising. But with anime feats allowed, I'd give the edge to tobirama (against the mizukage) but Mu is a different story.


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