# "The Last" Naruto vs. Jiraiya



## Rocky (Jul 17, 2015)

*Location:* Uchiha Hideout
*Distance:* 10m
*Mindset:* To Kill
*Knowledge:* Manga

-Naruto is restricted to base.

-Naruto can summon Gamakichi. J-swizzle gets everyone else.

*Scenario II:* Jiraiya begins in Sage Mode.

*BONUS:* All of the Sannin (no Edo Tensei) vs. _The Last_ SM Naruto.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 17, 2015)

Naruto curbstomps in all scenarios. He doesn't need Sage Mode or any of his higher forms to murk his old teacher.


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## Kyu (Jul 17, 2015)

Adult Base Naruto >> Jiraiya/Oro/Tsunade by leaps and bounds


COFRS+Homing FRS is out of their league.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 17, 2015)

Add the other 2 Sannin and eliminate S2 and it's still a godstomp.


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## Rocky (Jul 17, 2015)

Stop it. Base Nardo, whether it was Part II, The Last, or the Gaiden, has never done _anything_ to suggest he'd godstomp the Sannin.


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## Bonly (Jul 17, 2015)

Naruto in base can throw a FRS(which can cross an multiple mountains ranges in a second) and control it from what I've seen/ been told and this is the guy who could already make it quickly expand at the last second. Yeah Jiraiya's about to get fucked like one of his many bitches sadly


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## Kyu (Jul 17, 2015)

> Stop it. Base Nardo, whether it was Part II, The Last, or the Gaiden, has never done anything to suggest he'd godstomp the Sannin.


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## Rocky (Jul 17, 2015)

That's a feat of mowing down cannon fodder...


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## Kyu (Jul 17, 2015)

...and Jiraiya will share a similar fate when a couple of those are thrown his direction.

Oro & Tsunade aren't faring any better.


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## Jad (Jul 17, 2015)

To be honest when it comes to any version of Naruto after Hagaromo power up, I stop debating. Even if 8th Gate Gai vs. Base The Last Naruto threads I don't bother. Naruto is so oversaturated with power-ups and techniques, his just in his own world. Just roll with it and believe the Naruto Kishimito created: a hideous Frankenstein born from poor plot development.


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## Ersa (Jul 17, 2015)

Yeah no, add in the rest of the Sannin and they get absolutely shitstomped.

The base protags in the Last are basically top tier status. Their firepower is far greater then any standard Kage, their physical stats dwarf them. Sasuke blowing up meteors with generic Chidori and blitzing both Masters while carrying Hiashi is an example.

Their versatility is higher even with their limited arsenals. At 10m, the Sannin can be overwhelmed by Kage Bunshin and laser guided FRS spam. 100% Kurama can continuously supply chakra refills for stupid amounts of FRS spam. None of the Sannin will be able to dodge FRS from several directions and none of them will regenerate from having their chakra circuits severed.

And I may remind you that VOTE2 Sasuke was already surviving Limbo blows from Juubi-Jin Madara who could knock Bijuu on their arse without the Juubi. I wouldn't even be surprised if Naruto can tank Tsunade blows. Cause I really don't see Tsunade knocking BM Naruto on his arse.

It's stupid that his base form got this powerful but power inflation works that way I suppose.


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## Rocky (Jul 17, 2015)

Jesus these flashy movie feats kill me. Did you really look at that scene and go "yep, base Naruto's _totally_ EMS Madara-level now."

Anyway, if you want to make the argument that Naruto eventually beats Jiraiya with Rasenshuriken, then go for it. He wouldn't do so by just overtly throwing at him, nor would he beat all three of the Sannin at the same time just because he can throw Rasenshuriken in base now.


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## Ersa (Jul 17, 2015)

How are these movie feats any more flashy then the manga? It's irrelevant anyway since the movie is canon. 

And honestly, a clone with 50% Kurama can do this. *[1]*

You want to seriously suggest the real deal, with Hagaramo's boost, post-War arc and two years of training with the full might of 100% Kurama supplying him chakra refills can't replicate an even greater version with his guided FRS?

Yeah I'm sure 3.5 speed Tsunade is going to dodge that. I'm also sure Byakugō will save her from having her chakra system shredded ten or twenty times. Hell why not fifty times? Somehow I don't think FRS is too taxing on an Uzumaki with a island buster sitting in his stomach.


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## Rocky (Jul 17, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> The base protags in the Last are basically top tier status.



Give me one top tier that _doesn't_ push their shit in. 

I wouldn't even favor base Naruto over Minato or Itachi based on what I saw in the movie. He refined his skills, but it didn't even look to me that he's surpassed is Part II SM self.



Ersatz said:


> And I may remind you that VOTE2 Sasuke was already surviving Limbo blows



Er, no? Godruto & Godsauce, the versions with Rikudō chakra, had the Jūbi Jin tier physical stats. That all went away after they lost their Hagoromo power ups (with a _possible_ exception being Naruto in Six Paths Sage Mode).

If you've seen The Last or read the Gaiden, you'd know that base Naruto is not Jūbi Jin level anymore.


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## The Undying (Jul 17, 2015)

Jad said:


> To be honest when it comes to any version of Naruto after Hagaromo power up, I stop debating. Even if 8th Gate Gai vs. Base The Last Naruto threads I don't bother. Naruto is so oversaturated with power-ups and techniques, his just in his own world. Just roll with it and believe the Naruto Kishimito created: a hideous Frankenstein born from poor plot development.



I honestly think it's more a case of people desperately wanting base Naruto to be top tier rather than actually going off of any evidence provided by the manga. They have very little to work with, so they just take existing "feats" and distort the shit out of them to suit their own preconceptions.



Ersatz said:


> and blitzing both Masters while carrying Hiashi is an example.



Prove that he blitzed them and wasn't just sneaking behind them with Amenotejikara or general stealth.



> And I may remind you that VOTE2 Sasuke was already surviving Limbo blows from Juubi-Jin Madara who could knock Bijuu on their arse without the Juubi.



He was knocked back a great deal, and would have been on his ass just like the Bijuu if he wasn't arm-guarding the attack.

I won't deny that base Naruto/Sasuke are _possibly_ approaching top tier (although there's really not much to go off of) but Jesus, you're exaggerating the hell out of their physicality and you know it.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ersa (Jul 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Give me one top tier that _doesn't_ push their shit in.


Nagato is my measure of a top tier. Anyone stronger then him probably is top tier in my book and anyone weaker isn't. 

And yes I can see both of them taking Nagato down. Firepower for blowing up CT is there, physical stats are better, CST gives Nagato a shot but I'd bank on them forcing ST out and capitalizing on the delay. 



> I wouldn't even favor base Naruto over Minato or Itachi based on what I saw in the movie. He refined his skills, but it didn't even look to me that he's surpassed is Part II SM self.


Eh?

He'd shit on Itachi for one, literally send armies of clones with FRS at him while chilling with 100% Kurama for chakra. Itachi is fast yes but multiple FRS from directions will force Susanoo out and then attrition yeah somehow I don't feel Itachi wins here. Tsukuyomi is his only chance here but not sure even Naruto is dumb enough to fall for that with clones and knowledge.

Minato can tie with Reaper Seal, that's about it. Naruto can easily wear him down, leveling the landscape with FRS will probably ensure Minato never gets a tag close to him. 


> Er, no? Godruto & Godsauce, the versions with Rikudō chakra, had the Jūbi Jin tier physical stats. That all went away after they lost their Hagoromo power ups (with a _possible_ exception being Naruto in Six Paths Sage Mode).


I don't recall Rinnegan boosting his physical durability or Sasuke ever losing the chakra boost. Granted, giving them that level of durability perhaps may be too much but given their increase in physical stats in general I still think the Sannin need their absolute best to put them down.



> If you've seen The Last or read the Gaiden, you'd know that base Naruto is not Jūbi Jin level anymore.


Never suggested he was, I still think close to top tier is perfectly acceptable given what we've seen. Certainly the Sannin are not a threat to them, as far as I'm concerned Edo Itachi and Minato are both perfectly capable of flooring the Sannin already.


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## Amol (Jul 18, 2015)

Yeah Base Naruto solos Sannin.
FRS spamming+ Mass Shadow Clone is rediculously strong attack.
Power inflation is a real thing. If you don't like it then poor you but it is not going to change the fact that Naruto * is * that strong .


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## The Undying (Jul 18, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> He'd shit on Itachi for one, literally send armies of clones with FRS at him while chilling with 100% Kurama for chakra. Itachi is fast yes but multiple FRS from directions will force Susanoo out and then attrition yeah somehow I don't feel Itachi wins here. Tsukuyomi is his only chance here but not sure even Naruto is dumb enough to fall for that with clones and knowledge.



Naruto isn't capable of instantly forming clones before Itachi brings out Amaterasu. Even VOTE 2 clearly showed us that he needs the Bijuu cloak to defend against it.


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## Rocky (Jul 18, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Nagato is my measure of a top tier.



I was thinking more along the lines of EMS Sasuke and up, but either of them beating Nagato is also a massive stretch given that he can absorb their ninjutsu.



Ersatz said:


> He'd shit on Itachi for one, literally send armies of clones with FRS at him while chilling with 100% Kurama for chakra.



You know, theoretically (and mostly everything involving The Last Naruto is theory), base War Arc Naruto can do the same thing. He can't thorw Rasenshuriken, but that isn't necessary to force Susano'o and outlast Itachi.

You think _that_ base Naruto beats Itachi?



Ersatz said:


> Naruto can easily wear him down, leveling the landscape with FRS will probably ensure Minato never gets a tag close to him.



Minato can open portals that transport projectile attacks to locations of his choosing, whether that be away from the battlefield or even back at Naruto.

Full-on Rasenshuriken spam isn't the best idea.



Ersatz said:


> I don't recall Rinnegan boosting his physical durability or Sasuke ever losing the chakra boost.



I never said Rinnegan boosted his durability. The Six Paths boost did that, and that went away after Kaguya was sealed. It's why Sasuke's Chidori was no longer black and Naruto could no longer overpower Jūbi Jins. 

To think they're top tier in base in ridiculous to me. After reading the Gaiden, putting them alongside Hashirama & Madara seems stupid. 



Ersatz said:


> as far as I'm concerned Edo Itachi and Minato are both perfectly capable of flooring the Sannin already.



I think that might be the problem.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 18, 2015)

Rocky...base Sasuke obliterated a Village Size Meteor *with a fucking normal Chidori!* Naruto's Rasenshuriken, being a stronger attack with the elemental advantage is tiers above that. The Sannin, Itachi, Minato, and Nagato really literally have no chance against The Last's base version of Naruto. 

Oh and they didn't lose their Rikudo Power Ups: Naruto still retained Rikudo Senjutsu in Gaiden and Sasuke's Rinnegan still had its tomoes. We could tell Naruto was using Rikudo Senjutsu in the former since his eyes lacked the Sage Pigmentation, yet retained the cross eye (which is the trait of Rikudo Sage Mode).

And you're honestly saying that Naruto, who can *block a moon busting blade* is weaker than Hashirama and Madara?! Seriously?! Oh yes, an non-all out performance from Naruto when he's restraining himself to not hurt Sarada and Chocho (meaning a double handicap) makes him below them.[/sarcasm]


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## Ersa (Jul 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of EMS Sasuke and up, but either of them beating Nagato is also a massive stretch given that he can absorb their ninjutsu.


Sword to the neck could do wonders in Sauce's cause. Smoke bombs and dust in general have proven to be very nasty in the past for Naruto. It depends on conditions I suppose but it's possible.

I really don't see the protags losing to Nagato at this point in the series  portrayal wise anyway. They looked miserable in Gaiden but quite frankly BM Naruto in Gaiden struggled with Shin while BM Naruto in TL was tying a Jūbi Jin level opponent.



> You know, theoretically (and mostly everything involving The Last Naruto is theory), base War Arc Naruto can do the same thing. He can't thorw Rasenshuriken, but that isn't necessary to force Susano'o and outlast Itachi.
> 
> You think _that_ base Naruto beats Itachi?


Honestly Naruto is a pretty nasty match up for Itachi.

Still much less firepower and considerably lower speed makes me think Itachi can get by with ribcage. Faster clones and FRS are probably needed for him to win. 

But because he has less stamina I still feel he'll be more reluctant to spam his clone armies. This is all hypothetical I suppose but alot of Naruto fights are by the nature of his arsenal.



> Minato can open portals that transport projectile attacks to locations of his choosing, whether that be away from the battlefield or even back at Naruto.
> 
> Full-on Rasenshuriken spam isn't the best idea.


He can always go full attrition with melee clones then.

Minato will never win with Naruto having a Bijuu battery.




> I never said Rinnegan boosted his durability. The Six Paths boost did that, and that went away after Kaguya was sealed. It's why Sasuke's Chidori was no longer black and Naruto could no longer overpower Jūbi Jins.


The seals did but I don't believe the chakra did. They were stronger at VOTE2 compared to Kaguya fight and Sasuke's comment here indicated he can choose to use the Sages chakra.*[1]*

Plus Naruto still had his Six Paths mode after losing his seal so yeah not sure about that one. And you know he was overpowering Jūbi Jins in BM still. 



> To think they're top tier in base in ridiculous to me. After reading the Gaiden, putting them alongside Hashirama & Madara seems stupid.


They were gimped in Gaiden. And The Last and Gaiden are different versions of the same character. We don't scale War Arc Naruto off Chunin Exam Naruto do we?



> I think that might be the problem.


Well if we take the Sannin as combat equals and Orochimaru admitted inferiority to terminal illness Itachi then I don't find it unreasonable to think Minato could beat them.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 18, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> They were gimped in Gaiden. And The Last and Gaiden are different versions of the same character. We don't scale War Arc Naruto off Chunin Exam Naruto do we?


Given they couldn't go all out against kids while protecting kids, yeah. The moment Sasuke's powers returned showed how much he and Naruto were holding back. Naruto just used Rikudo Sage Mode with his Tailed Beast Mode, not going to his empowered Rikudo Sage Mode state which we see in the upcoming movie's trailers.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jul 18, 2015)

Thats not ninjutsu thats DBZ moves.


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## Kyu (Jul 18, 2015)

Destructo Disk soloes.


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## Duhul10 (Jul 18, 2015)

LOL, some try to say Itachi beats the last base Naruto. )
Last base Naruto >>> SM Jiraiya
Last base NAruto >>>>> Oro ( though i do not think he can beat Oro if he has part 2 ET )
Last base Naruto >>>>>>> Tsunade
Last Base Naruto >>>> Itachi


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Stop it. Base Nardo, whether it was Part II, The Last, or the Gaiden, has never done _anything_ to suggest he'd godstomp the Sannin.



I'm gonna need you to stop with this ridiculous downplay of Naruto's abilities. Sasuke obliterated a Meteor the size of Hokage Mountain with a single Chidori. Chidori=Rasengan, and that's fact. FRS is magnitudes stronger than Chidori. So even if you don't want to admit that Sasuke's Chidori is equal to Naruto's Rasengan, FRS would still be far stronger due to the massive gap in power between it and Rasengan.

Naruto can throw Rasen Shuriken. Naruto can use homing Rasen Shuriken. The remote control is precise enough to force Toneri to block despite being able to evade the initial blow. Sannin aren't evading jack when Toneri had issues evading the homing part of the attack. This is pretty much the same situation Raikage was in, but worse since this is an actual homing attack. This also doesn't include the clones he can make that'd also be able to use the same Rasen Shuriken.

These 3 literally don't stand a chance. They can't block FRS, they can't dodge it, they can't overpower it. So they die.  

And where is this "Lost their Hagoromo power up" stuff coming from? Sasuke has all his powers. Naruto has all his powers. This is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim that has gone on for far too long. What worse is that:



> If you've seen The Last or read the Gaiden, *you'd know that base Naruto is not Jūbi Jin level anymore.*



You say this, but The Last Base Naruto is far stronger than the Base Naruto at VoTE 2.

-Stronger attacks.
-Physically superior.
-Can throw Rasen Shuriken.
-It is homing.

Gaiden? Not the topic of the thread, and Gaiden Base Naruto is inferior to The Last Base Naruto since he hasn't been training, and most of your fighting in Base depends on your battle sense and skills and not just tossing explosives around.

Besides, they were never Juubi Jin level in Base form.

I'd love for you or anyone else to explain how the Sannin stand a chance of giving him any kind of difficulty whatsoever.


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## The Undying (Jul 18, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> LOL, some try to say Itachi beats the last base Naruto. )
> Last base Naruto >>> SM Jiraiya
> Last base NAruto >>>>> Oro ( though i do not think he can beat Oro if he has part 2 ET )
> Last base Naruto >>>>>>> Tsunade
> Last Base Naruto >>>> Itachi



I still don't see how Naruto is countering Amaterasu. In a full-knowledge scenario, it's the first thing Itachi will do because Naruto's ability to counter it is something not included in his base repertoire. He isn't fast enough to dodge it (we saw his base speed in The Last; it's nothing too impressive) and he doesn't have any defensive techniques that will negate it. His best bet is either the homing FRS or Kage Bunshin, and neither are fast enough to even manifest themselves before Itachi ignites him on eye contact.

He might very well be stronger than the Sannin (I still have my doubts, and I definitely don't think he's physically quick enough to solo them), but a healthy Itachi is as far as I'm willing to go in terms of who he's on par with. People like Nagato and Minato are able to counter FRS pretty easily.



KeyofMiracles said:


> And where is this "Lost their Hagoromo power up" stuff coming from? Sasuke has all his powers. Naruto has all his powers.



They didn't lose their main power ups, but they likely lost the Yin/Yang chakra when their seals vanished after Kaguya's defeat. _This page_ explicitly attributes Naruto's "Rikudou Power of Yang" and Sasuke's "Rikudou Power of Yin" to the seals on their hands. Moreover, Naruto never used his healing ability after his seal vanished, and the visual cues show that his healing power came from that seal. Sasuke never activated Yin Chidori after his seal vanished either. DB4 also alludes to their Yin and Yang powers being contained within the seals.

In your defense, though, the Yin/Yang chakra probably didn't boost much in the first place (I used to think otherwise, but after re-analyzing the manga I think you're correct in regards to our last debate). The bulk of their offensive power lies in RSM and Rinnegan, which they didn't lose. Without the seals, base Naruto's improvements in The Last are from his own powers and his own training, not Hagoromo's.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 18, 2015)

The Undying said:


> They didn't lose their main power ups, but they likely lost the Yin/Yang chakra when their seals vanished after Kaguya's defeat. _This page_ explicitly attributes Naruto's "Rikudou Power of Yang" and Sasuke's "Rikudou Power of Yin" to the seals on their hands. Moreover, Naruto never used his healing ability after his seal vanished, and the visual cues show that his healing power came from that seal. Sasuke never activated Yin Chidori after his seal vanished either. DB4 also alludes to their Yin and Yang powers being contained within the seals.
> 
> In your defense, though, the Yin/Yang chakra probably didn't boost much in the first place (I used to think otherwise, but after re-analyzing the manga I think you're correct in regards to our last debate). The bulk of their offensive power lies in RSM and Rinnegan, which they didn't lose. Without the seals, base Naruto's improvements in The Last are from his own powers and his own training, not Hagoromo's.



Only the seals vanished. The only thing contained in the seals are the special abilities that they showed with the seals in the Manga. Hagoromo's chakra is the only reason they got their abilities, and it's the only reason that Naruto still has his. Naruto having RSM in itself is proof that he didn't lose his chakra, because you can't use Rikudo Sage Mode without having Rikudo Sage Chakra.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That's a feat of mowing down cannon fodder...



Implying Jiraiya isn't fodder


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## Kyu (Jul 18, 2015)

> He might very well be stronger than the Sannin (I still have my doubts, and I definitely don't think he's physically quick enough to solo them),



_Pre-last_ he could respond to Amaterasu before it made contact. 

Besides, it isn't like they're fast enough to prevent any sort of casual movement.


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## The Undying (Jul 18, 2015)

Kyu said:


> _Pre-last_ he could respond to Amaterasu before it made contact.



If you're referring to VOTE 2, he pushed it away with his Bijuu cloak after Amaterasu already made contact.



KeyofMiracles said:


> Only the seals vanished. The only thing contained in the seals are the special abilities that they showed with the seals in the Manga. Hagoromo's chakra is the only reason they got their abilities, and it's the only reason that Naruto still has his. Naruto having RSM in itself is proof that he didn't lose his chakra, because you can't use Rikudo Sage Mode without having Rikudo Sage Chakra.



You could argue they theoretically have his chakra in some capacity, but I'm referring to the Yin/Yang powers specifically. The manga distinguishes between Hagoromo's sage chakra (called "Rikudou Senjutsu") and the Rikudou Yang power. Sasuke possessed the Rikudo Yin power without having RSM himself, so there doesn't appear to be any direct link between the two. That page I linked to and DB4 both make it pretty clear that the Yin/Yang power and the seals are one in the same; Naruto even looks at the seal on his hand when Sasuke says "Rikudou Power of Yang" to emphasize the fact that those powers are represented by the seals.

Also it's up to you whether you consider this canon, but one of the Hiden novels suggests that the prerequisites for Naruto's RSM were the individual chakra of all nine Bijuu, and that Hagoromo merely "activated" his ability to use it.


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## Kyu (Jul 18, 2015)

> If you're referring to VOTE 2, he pushed it away with his Bijuu cloak after Amaterasu already made contact.



He activated the cloak _before_ it hit his body - which is what Sasuke was aiming for. 

The point is he reacted to it.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 18, 2015)

The Undying said:


> You could argue they theoretically have his chakra in some capacity, but I'm referring to the Yin/Yang powers specifically. The manga distinguishes between Hagoromo's sage chakra (called "Rikudou Senjutsu") and the Rikudou Yang power. Sasuke possessed the Rikudo Yin power without having RSM himself, so there doesn't appear to be any direct link between the two. That page I linked to and DB4 both make it pretty clear that the Yin/Yang power and the seals are one in the same; Naruto even looks at the seal on his hand when Sasuke says "Rikudou Power of Yang" to emphasize the fact that those powers are represented by the seals.
> 
> Also it's up to you whether you consider this canon, but one of the Hiden novels suggests that the prerequisites for Naruto's RSM were the individual chakra of all nine Bijuu, and that Hagoromo merely "activated" his ability to use it.



I know. The Yin Power contains some unknown ability that changed the color of Sasuke's Chidori, and the power to seal Kaguya, and the Yang Power let Naruto rejuvenate Obito and Gai, and it contains the power to seal her. It contains no special chakra that'd dramatically increase their power, so the loss of the seals pretty much means that they just lost an ability.

Well, he used RSM in Gaiden already, so he either has all the Bijuu still, or that Hiden novel was wrong. I believe the former.


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## The Undying (Jul 18, 2015)

Kyu said:


> He activated the cloak _before_ it hit his body - which is what Sasuke was aiming for.



Are you looking at the right page? His body was hit before he activated the cloak. It clearly shows Amaterasu making contact with Naruto in one panel (his arm was already raised due to forming the Kage Bunshin seal), followed by the cloak forming around his affected arm in the next panel. We don't even _see_ the cloak until the latter panel. That particular feat provides no support of any kind for the notion of Naruto activating the cloak beforehand.

As far as can be seen, he reacted to it only to the degree that he was able to push it off of him before his arm suffered any major burn damage. He certainly wasn't side-stepping it, and I'm not sure how he's going to do it at 19 either without the same defense method. He'd need the cloak, just as he canonically needed the cloak against Sasuke.


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## Ersa (Jul 19, 2015)

It's really simple power-scaling at this point.

Naruto's BM went from top tier status to contending with Jūbi Jin-level opponents like Toneri. That's an insane leap as we know the difference between Hashirama and a Jūbi Jin is very, very significant.

It only makes sense his base sees similar gains and considering Sasuke's meteor feat on top of blitzing both Kakashi and Gai while carrying Hiashi I really don't see how the Sannin can hold a candle, I really don't.


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## Raiken (Jul 19, 2015)

We don't even know if they retained Hagaromo's Yin/Yang Chakra and there's no way to know either way.
So any debate involving Naruto and Sasuke after VotE2 is pointless, because they could be either in Top or God Tier, depending on if they kept Hagaromo's Chakra or not.

Their performance against Shin however implies they didn't keep it or they gradually lost it.


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## Amol (Jul 19, 2015)

^ No, their performance against Shin suggested that it was hugely PIS fight as later they casually fodderized all Shins.
Sakura hold off all those Shins by herself for extended time.
So even Normal SM Naruto would fodderize them. They don't need RS powers for likes of Shin .
That entire fight happened for plot convenience, that's it .


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## Raiken (Jul 19, 2015)

^ If Naruto / Sauce had Hagaromo's Chakra still. They would have fodderized Shin in their first encounter.
They have likely lost the Chakra that Hagaromo gave them; at least in my opinion,  and I think Sm Jiraiya with more Summons against a purely base Naruto with 1 Summon would stand a fair chance.


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## The Undying (Jul 19, 2015)

Amol said:


> ^ No, their performance against Shin suggested that it was hugely PIS fight as later they casually fodderized all Shins.
> Sakura hold off all those Shins by herself for extended time.
> So even Normal SM Naruto would fodderize them. They don't need RS powers for likes of Shin .
> That entire fight happened for plot convenience, that's it .



Sarada fodderized the Shins, so that example definitely doesn't help your case. The difference between Shin Sr. and Shin Jr. is pretty massive, even if Shin Sr. _is_ a pushover by EoS standards.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 19, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> ^ If Naruto / Sauce had Hagaromo's Chakra still. They would have fodderized Shin in their first encounter.
> They have likely lost the Chakra that Hagaromo gave them; at least in my opinion,  and I think Sm Jiraiya with more Summons against a purely base Naruto with 1 Summon would stand a fair chance.


They were fucking holding back, Cryrorex. And your avatar proves Naruto and Sasuke retain their Rikudo Chakra: Naruto's in Rikudo Sage Mode there!


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## Kyu (Jul 19, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Are you looking at the right page? His body was hit before he activated the cloak. It clearly shows Amaterasu making contact with Naruto in one panel (his arm was already raised due to forming the Kage Bunshin seal), followed by the cloak forming around his affected arm in the next panel. We don't even _see_ the cloak until the latter panel. That particular feat provides no support of any kind for the notion of Naruto activating the cloak beforehand.
> 
> As far as can be seen, he reacted to it only to the degree that he was able to push it off of him before his arm suffered any major burn damage. He certainly wasn't side-stepping it, and I'm not sure how he's going to do it at 19 either without the same defense method. He'd need the cloak, just as he canonically needed the cloak against Sasuke.



Look more closely at the second to last panel; Amateratsu is seemingly hovering above his arm as you can see there's a small white gap separating his arm from the flames and the next panel, the cloaks rises, revealing what protected him. 

So no, Amateratsu never touches his skin, because Nardo could detect the threat and defend accordingly. Had he been hit, he would've let out a wail of agony and the flames would've caused extensive damage on initial contact since Sasuke's line of sight is focused directly onto Naruto.

The shroud was necessary in order to defend against Amateratsu - I'm not disputing that, however him activating his cloak makes it a legitimate reaction feat as he could consciously issue a response.


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## The Undying (Jul 19, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Look more closely at the second to last panel; Amateratsu is seemingly hovering above his arm as you can see there's a small white gap separating his arm from the flames and the next panel, the cloaks rises, revealing what protected him.



The second to last panel doesn't show Naruto's right arm, which is the arm that Amaterasu is making contact with. We know for a fact that he's cloakless in that panel because Naruto's V1 cloak defense surrounds his entire body, as the following page shows. His shroud is simply faster than Amaterasu's cellular destruction rate.

Besides, I'm not disputing Naruto's reactions here. I'm disputing his body movement speed. If you agree that the shroud was _necessary_ to defend against Amaterasu, that would mean EoS Naruto isn't capable of counteracting it without the cloak, and I honestly don't see The Last Naruto faring much better under the same circumstances.


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## ShadoLord (Jul 19, 2015)

The Last Naruto should be stronger than his war arc self, he would easily be able to defeat his master by then.


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## Mercurial (Jul 20, 2015)

Naruto casually blitzes or stomps with Rasenshuriken.


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## Raiken (Jul 20, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> They were fucking holding back, Cryrorex.


I agree that they were holding back a little because they overestimated themselves and underestimated Shin, however, no amount of holding back could have possibly caused them to be at such a massive disadvantage against Shin if they still had Hagaromo's Chakra. It's YOUR opinion that they kept it, it's MINE that they didn't.


> And your avatar proves Naruto and Sasuke retain their Rikudo Chakra: Naruto's in Rikudo Sage Mode there!


This again is just your opinion as there is no conclusive evidence on that belief.
And as I've said many times, that's NOT Six Paths Sage Mode, that much is fact. The primary indicators of using Six Paths Sage Mode are the 9 Tomoe/Rinnegan Seal Markings along with the Gudoudama, not the lack of Sage Pigmentation.
You go round acting like what you say is fact, sure he may have retained Hagaromo's Chakra or he may have not, I acknowledge that it is inconclusive. But you just go round forcing your views in peoples faces and then neg them when they don't have the same opinion as you.


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## TheGreen1 (Jul 20, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Rocky...base Sasuke obliterated a Village Size Meteor *with a fucking normal Chidori!* Naruto's Rasenshuriken, being a stronger attack with the elemental advantage is tiers above that. The Sannin, Itachi, Minato, and Nagato really literally have no chance against The Last's base version of Naruto.
> 
> Oh and they didn't lose their Rikudo Power Ups: Naruto still retained Rikudo Senjutsu in Gaiden and Sasuke's Rinnegan still had its tomoes. We could tell Naruto was using Rikudo Senjutsu in the former since his eyes lacked the Sage Pigmentation, yet retained the cross eye (which is the trait of Rikudo Sage Mode).



From what it's been stated in the Shikamaru novel, Naruto still had the Six Path's Sage Chakra. 

Plus, Naruto blocking an attack that could slice the moon. That's a huge feat. I don't even think Sasuke could slice the moon in one shot. Not even with the Bijuu Power-up.


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## ThunderCunt (Jul 20, 2015)

FRS will take down Jiraya, really? He has to hit Jiraya with that thing and J-man ain't staying there to get hit by base Naruto.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 20, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> I agree that they were holding back a little because they overestimated themselves and underestimated Shin, however, no amount of holding back could have possibly caused them to be at such a massive disadvantage against Shin if they still had Hagaromo's Chakra. It's YOUR opinion that they kept it, it's MINE that they didn't.


And your opinion goes against the manga. The manga says they'll always possess it. The manga says Naruto's Rikudo chakra will always get stronger. Your opinion is wrong.

And how were they at a 'massive disadvantage' when they were effortlessly deflecting Shin's attacks while holding back massively. They didn't want to kill Shin. They also couldn't go all out in front of Sarada and Chocho so they wouldn't be caught in the crossfire.


> This again is just your opinion as there is no conclusive evidence on that belief.
> And as I've said many times, that's NOT Six Paths Sage Mode, that much is fact. The primary indicators of using Six Paths Sage Mode are the 9 Tomoe/Rinnegan Seal Markings along with the Gudoudama, not the lack of Sage Pigmentation.
> You go round acting like what you say is fact, sure he may have retained Hagaromo's Chakra or he may have not, I acknowledge that it is inconclusive. But you just go round forcing your views in peoples faces and then neg them when they don't have the same opinion as you.


Various novels say they retain it. And Six Path Sage Mode IS just the pigmentation-less eyes. Naruto was in Six Path Sage Mode in 672 when he saved Guy. The cloak he gains when powering up isn't the trait of the form, the pigmentation-less eyes are. That's what the databook says Cryrorex. So you're wrong. Manga, databook, novels, all show Naruto and Sasuke retained that chakra. 

I negged you since you keep putting a wrong opinion and even refused to acknowledge your knowledge is wrong. Revenge negging just shows you're uncomfortable with being told you're wrong.



ThunderCunt said:


> FRS will take down Jiraya, really? He has to hit Jiraya with that thing and J-man ain't staying there to get hit by base Naruto.


Naruto can throw and guide the Rasenshuriken in base now. You haven't seen The Last have you?


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## Raiken (Jul 20, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And your opinion goes against the manga. The manga says they'll always possess it. The manga says Naruto's Rikudo chakra will always get stronger. Your opinion is wrong.


Since when did the Manga ever say such things, you're just pulling things out of your ass now.



> Various novels say they retain it. And Six Path Sage Mode IS just the pigmentation-less eyes.


The novels are a pile of non-canon trash, I've read the translated versions, the Manga is all i'm interested in.



> Naruto was in Six Path Sage Mode in 672 when he saved Guy. The cloak he gains when powering up isn't the trait of the form, the pigmentation-less eyes are. That's what the databook says Cryrorex. So you're wrong. Manga, databook, novels, all show Naruto and Sasuke retained that chakra.


This just shows you have 0 understanding of what Six Paths Sage Mode even is, get over yourself. You just don't have a single clue and I refuse to acknowledge the databooks as they are full of potholes, vague assumptions and contradictions. And the Manga doesn't support your OPINION, any more than it supports mine.
I refuse to debate the issue with you anymore.


> I negged you since you keep putting a wrong opinion and even refused to acknowledge your knowledge is wrong. Revenge negging just shows you're uncomfortable with being told you're wrong.


I revenge negged because you unjustly negged me because my opinion clashes with your OPINION. An opinion you make out is fact because you're a bloody idiot. Stop forcing your beliefs on other people.


> Naruto can throw and guide the Rasenshuriken in base now. You haven't seen The Last have you?


How can you be SO... simple minded, it's actually beyond me.


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## Hand Banana (Jul 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Stop it. Base Nardo, whether it was Part II, The Last, or the Gaiden, has never done _anything_ to suggest he'd godstomp the Sannin.



Then what's the point of making this thread?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 20, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Since when did the Manga ever say such things, you're just pulling things out of your ass now.


When Hagoromo said Naruto'd be the meeting place of the Biju. That shows he'd retain his powers.



> The novels are a pile of non-canon trash, I've read the translated versions, the Manga is all i'm interested in.


Kishimoto and Shuiesha says their canon. So you're kind of wrong here.



> This just shows you have 0 understanding of what Six Paths Sage Mode even is, get over yourself. You just don't have a single clue and I refuse to acknowledge the databooks are they are full of potholes, vague assumptions and contradictions. And the Manga doesn't support your OPINION, any more than it supports mine.
> I refuse to debate the issue with you anymore.
> I revenge negged because you unjustly negged me because my opinion clashes with your OPINION. An opinion you make out is fact because you're a bloody idiot. Stop forcing your beliefs on other people.


How is that a contradiction, Cryroex? Just because it doesn't fit your interpretation? Six Path Sage Mode is the mixture of all nine tailed beasts chakra and Sage Mode without the Sage Mode pigmentation that was in Biju Sage Mode. The form used in 672 and 672 was vastly different than Naruto's Biju Sage Mode.



> Page 310
> 
> Ninjutsu, Senjutsu - Six Paths Sage Mode
> No rank, no range, offensive, defensive, supplementary
> ...



Both of these are in 672 and 673, before he dons the mantle.

All evidence points to your opinion being wrong, and you won't accept it. Hence why you received that neg from me. And you've been here long enough to know revenge negging is against the rules AND is a manga faux pa.


> How can you be SO... simple minded, it's actually beyond me.


How am I being simple minded? Throwing the Rasenshuriken in base puts Naruto far above the Sannin.


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## Kyu (Jul 20, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Besides, I'm not disputing Naruto's reactions here. I'm disputing his body movement speed. If you agree that the shroud was _necessary_ to defend against Amaterasu, that would mean EoS Naruto isn't capable of counteracting it without the cloak, and I honestly don't see The Last Naruto faring much better under the same circumstances.



Oh, I agree wholeheartedly.

I don't believe he's fast enough to shunshin out of the way in base.



ThunderCunt said:


> FRS will take down Jiraya, really? He has to hit Jiraya with that thing and J-man ain't staying there to get hit by base Naruto.



FRS crossed a mountain range in a second; it isn't exactly slow. 

The newly developed homing feature makes it even more difficult to evade for anyone who isn't a speedster. This isn't even factoring in FRS inevitably being thrown by hordes of shadow clones.

On top of that, it'll be a cold day in hell before Jiraiya outlasts Naruto, therefore he'll need to end the battle before stamina becomes a problem. Yea...not happening.


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## Rocky (Jul 20, 2015)

NaS said:


> Then what's the point of making this thread?



Why does my view that base Naruto can't stomp all three Sannin mean that there isn't a point to this thread?


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## Visa (Jul 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Why does my view that base Naruto can't stomp all three Sannin mean that there isn't a point to this thread?



Maybe because you don't know Base Naruto's level as well as you think you do


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 20, 2015)

Wait... Sasuke's basic chidori destroyed a meteor?!?! I have got to watch that movie.

EDIT: If that's where the powerscaling has transcended to for Naruto/Sasuke since rasengan should logically be just as strong, then hell we have reached the point where we can argue whether a basic rasengan or basic chidori from Naruto and Sasuke respectively can break through Susano and Yata's mirror.


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## Altair21 (Jul 21, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> We don't even know if they retained Hagaromo's Yin/Yang Chakra and there's no way to know either way.
> So any debate involving Naruto and Sasuke after VotE2 is pointless, because they could be either in Top or God Tier, depending on if they kept Hagaromo's Chakra or not.
> 
> Their performance against Shin however implies they didn't keep it or they gradually lost it.



What exactly is different about them in the Gaiden compared to their VoTe selves? 

Sasuke can still use PS, PS chidori, amenojikara, rinnegan genjutsu, CT, preta path, amaterasu, etc. The only thing he can't use is the Bijuu Susanoo.

What they lost before the VoTe fight were the yin and yang seals, which took away their healing and black chidori abilities respectively. What they did at the VoTe is what they can still do in the Gaiden.


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## Raiken (Jul 21, 2015)

^ Where is Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode?
Which is characterized by the same features by each and every user of it, Hagaromo, Obito, Madara and Naruto: The 9 Toome/Rinnegan Seal Markings.

Naruto appears to have Lost SPSM since VotE2.

And the Yin/Yang Seals appeared to give them a kind of raw Chakra power up which applied to all their stats essentially and I personally believe they've lost that stag boost.


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## Altair21 (Jul 21, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> ^ Where is Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode?
> Which is characterized by the same features by each and every user of it, Hagaromo, Obito, Madara and Naruto: The 9 Toome/Rinnegan Seal Markings.
> 
> Naruto appears to have Lost SPSM since VotE2.
> ...



Naruto is weird considering Kishi changes his chakra cloak every time he makes an appearance. There's no definitive way to tell what mode Naruto used in the Gaiden as there's signs of it being Six Paths Sage Mode and Bijuu Mode.

Either way, I'm of the opinion that he still has it. He would've lost it after losing the seals if it had anything to do with the yin and yang seals. 

They didn't seem to have any kind of raw chakra boost and if they did then it would've been gone the moment the seals returned to Hagoromo. The only things they didn't pull out after losing the seals were the healing powers and the black chidori, which implies those were the only abilities those seals granted them aside from their ability to seal Kaguya. The bulk of their powers came from the Rinnegan and Six Path Sage Mode hence why they could still perform to nearly the same degree at the VoTe as they did against Kaguya.

There's no difference in any of Sasuke's abilities in the Gaiden compared to when he fought Naruto, so I don't think there is for Naruto either.


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## Skywalker (Jul 21, 2015)

What is this? Naruto boots Jiraiyas head off pretty casually, he doesn't have shit on heat seeking FRS spam.


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## DeadManHand (Jul 21, 2015)

I don't want to just come right out and say Naruto destroys all three Sannin, or even just Jiraiya, but I will say that I don't see this as 1v1 or 1v3.  Now, go easy on the new guy a bit, but isn't Naruto's mastery of shadow clones pretty much unparalleled at this point?  He's probably been training it as well, right?  We probably can't just go around making assumptions on things, but it would make sense.

So, given that, what's stopping him from creating an almost literal tidal wave of clones?  Even if we don't say Naruto stomps his teacher, it's at least *probable* that he's superior physically.  Stamina, strength, etc., etc.  Sure as a kid clones didn't tip the balance in any real way against Jiraiya, but now, I don't see him just clearing through them.

I'm being kind of long-winded, my point is that 1,000,000 The Last Narutos or however many he could make is still a huge problem for anybody.  So for scenario one at least, I have to give it to Naruto.  I don't know how hard or how easy it is for him, but I think he wins.  I'll reserve judgment on Scenario 2 and the bonus, however.


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## Bloo (Jul 22, 2015)

How can anyone think Jiraiya stands a shadow of a chance against Naruto after his Hagoromo power upgrade? Naruto so badly desimates Jiraiya it's laughable.

Naruto rapes, 11/10.


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## Rindaman (Jul 22, 2015)

Some people took those rusty comments way too literally ....


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## Raiken (Jul 22, 2015)

Bloo said:


> How can anyone think Jiraiya stands a shadow of a chance against Naruto after his Hagoromo power upgrade? Naruto so badly desimates Jiraiya it's laughable.
> 
> Naruto rapes, 11/10.


Half of the thread was the debate of weather he still had it or not, which basically determines the match depending on the answer.
If he still has Hagaromo's Yang Chakra, Naruto has an easy win, if not Base Naruto VS SM Jiraiya could be an interesting match, i'd personally still put my money on Naruto, but not by a lot.


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## Raiken (Jul 22, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Either way, I'm of the opinion that he still has it. He would've lost it after losing the seals if it had anything to do with the yin and yang seals.
> 
> They didn't seem to have any kind of raw chakra boost and if they did then it would've been gone the moment the seals returned to Hagoromo.



How can you say that when people place Dual Rinnegan SM Madara as a lot weaker than 1 Rinnegan JJ Madara, but Tomoe-Rinnegan Sasuke is on JJ Madara's level.
How does Amenotejikara trump 4 Limbo Clones?
How does Sasuke's Ashura Chakra trump Madara's, if anything it seems like Madara had more of it.
There's clearly a difference when it comes to their raw power of Chakra which can augment everything. 
It is strongly implied that their overall stats were powered up by Hagaromo, by his Yin Chaka and Yang Chakra respectively.

And the Seals could have just represented an active connection to Hagaromo, who was constantly maintaining the high levels of Chakra for them both.
But after the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei was used and the Seals left them both, the Chakra it gave them would still be in their system, what's left of it that is, and would gradually be used up until it's gone.
And I'd say by the end of VotE2, they used it all up.

This may explain why in my opinion, Naruto hasn't used SPSM since VotE2.
Perhaps Hagaromo's Yang Chakra is a prerequisite for SPSM, maybe it is what enables Naruto's body to combine the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu and Senjutsu, to create the power of the Juubi Jinchuuriki without being the Juubi Jinchuuriki.
Essentially what the Gedo Mazou does, except Hagaromo's Yang Chakra allowed Naruto's Body to essentially act as a "Gedo Mazou".
Perhaps that it was Hagaromo's Yin Chakra that helped Sasuke combine the 9 Bijuu's Chakra into Perfect Susano'o.

So for Naruto and Sasuke to use their 9-Bijuu type god level powers, SPSM and 9-Bijuu PS.
They need Hagaromo's Yin and Yang Chakra respectively.


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## The Undying (Jul 22, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> If he still has Hagaromo's Yang Chakra



He doesn't. Chapter 680 makes it agonizingly clear that the Yin and Yang chakra is contained within the seals on their hands, and those were obviously returned to Hagoromo after Kaguya's defeat. They're also separate power ups from RSM and Rinnegan.

Naruto received two powers from Hagoromo: 'Rikudou Senjutsu' (RSM) and 'Rikudou Yang no Chikara'. Nothing beyond that is _ever_ stated or confirmed to be given to Naruto in the manga or in DB4, so the assumption that Naruto received a "buff" in base is actually purely based on supposition and nothing more.


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## Altair21 (Jul 22, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> How can you say that when people place Dual Rinnegan SM Madara as a lot weaker than 1 Rinnegan JJ Madara, but Tomoe-Rinnegan Sasuke is on JJ Madara's level.
> How does Amenotejikara trump 4 Limbo Clones?
> How does Sasuke's Ashura Chakra trump Madara's, if anything it seems like Madara had more of it.
> There's clearly a difference when it comes to their raw power of Chakra which can augment everything.
> ...



Sorry, but I'm not in anyway buying it. If that were the case then their performance at the second VoTE would've been drastically weaker than what they were dishing out against Madara and Kaguya. It wasn't. The excuse that the chakra remained in their system before being used up doesn't fly either as a similar situation was shown when Obito jumped into Kakashi. Once he left everything was gone immediately. There was no remnants of the rikudo chakra he briefly lent Kakashi. If what you're saying was true then the chakra should've been gone the minute the seals were gone. 

Sasuke's abilities didn't in anyway change (as shown in the Gaiden he can still use PS, Amenotejikara, etc.), so neither should Naruto's.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 30, 2015)

The Undying said:


> He doesn't. Chapter 680 makes it agonizingly clear that the Yin and Yang chakra is contained within the seals on their hands, and those were obviously returned to Hagoromo after Kaguya's defeat. They're also separate power ups from RSM and Rinnegan.
> 
> Naruto received two powers from Hagoromo: 'Rikudou Senjutsu' (RSM) and 'Rikudou Yang no Chikara'. Nothing beyond that is _ever_ stated or confirmed to be given to Naruto in the manga or in DB4, so the assumption that Naruto received a "buff" in base is actually purely based on supposition and nothing more.


Wrong. The marks on their hands were the seals for Rikudo Chibaku Tensei. Losing them didn't take their power away. If they lost their powers, Sasuke's Tomoed-Rinnegan would have vanished and he'd have just have the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. Yet both were shown to retain their abilities, its pure fanon to claim they got weaker and lost Rikudo Sage Mode (Naruto) and the Rinnegan (Sasuke). Hell Sasuke can make Hagoromo chakra on his own since he obtained the Rinnegan, and Rikudo Sage Mode requires all nine tailed beasts to be used which Naruto can access anytime


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## The Undying (Jul 30, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Wrong. The marks on their hands were the seals for Rikudo Chibaku Tensei. Losing them didn't take their power away. If they lost their powers, Sasuke's Tomoed-Rinnegan would have vanished and he'd have just have the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. Yet both were shown to retain their abilities, its pure fanon to claim they got weaker and lost Rikudo Sage Mode (Naruto) and the Rinnegan (Sasuke). Hell Sasuke can make Hagoromo chakra on his own since he obtained the Rinnegan, and Rikudo Sage Mode requires all nine tailed beasts to be used which Naruto can access anytime



Can you not read? I specifically said that the Yin/Yang powers (which they lost) were different from the RSM/Rinnegan powers (which they kept).


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 30, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Can you not read? I specifically said that the Yin/Yang powers (which they lost) were different from the RSM/Rinnegan powers (which they kept).


Misread and misinterpreted, sorry. So many people make those one and the same and I thought you were again. So my bad.


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