# Madara Gauntlet



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 10, 2014)

No match seems to challenge him, so lets see how he handles a gauntlet. 

This is living Madara with both Rinnegan eyes and Hashirama's Sage Mode. 
Assume he can use all Rinnegan jutsu used by Nagato/Obito.

*Location:* Madara vs Bijuu.

*Distance:* Madara always where he is on the page; the foes always start where Son is. [link]

*Knowledge:* Manga.

*Conditions: *Madara gets no rest between matches. However he has access to his Zetsu network and black Zetsu; he has the latter's knowledge.

Foes:
- living Itachi

- Kisame, Kakuzu, Sasori and Deidara. Deidara will only use CO when he's the last one left and when he is desperate.

- SM Naruto, Kakashi, Obito, Gai, Yamato, both Ino-Shika-Cho (old and new gen) and Hidan.

- Gokage teamed up with Muu, Trollkage, Yondaime Mizukage and Sandaime Raikage.

- Edo Itachi, KCM Naruto, MS Sasuke and Killer B.

- BM Naruto, BM Minato, prime mobile Nagato, Oonoki and Kabuto (can use any ET except Madara and Nagato).

- BSM Naruto, EMS-CS2 Sasuke, the Edo Hokage, SM Jiraiya and Orochimaru.

- Juubito. (If it is too unfair on Madara, then he can summon 100% Kurama.)


How far does Madara Haxchia get?


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 10, 2014)

Most of the matches are harder then Juubito, I could see him beating everyone except *maybe* for the second last scenario. This is assuming he does not spam Rinbo Hengoku, if he does he's basically unstoppable.


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## ARGUS (Jan 10, 2014)

Scenario 1: living Itachi gets stomped no explanation needed 

Scenario 2: Kisame Kakuzu Sasori and deidara yeah they get stomped as well 

Scenario 3: the only threat is Obito here idk which version is it 
Either way,, Madara fodderises all and then uses flower tree world to end obito 

Scenario 4: gokage and Edo Kage have nothing on PS RH CK & SS combo 

Scenario 5: yeah KCM Naruto and Bee got soloed by crippled nagato 
Madara stomps the rest like children 

Scenario 6: BM Naruto,, BM Minato and Mobile Nagato should definitely be able to beat Madara 
Nagato with kyuubi cloak would be scary... minato can FTG his team mates for great defense and counter attack
Team Nardo win this high diff

Scenario 7: Madara gets rapestomped here.. Hashirama alone isn't too far from current Madara,, with BSM Naruto and the other hokage will eat him for breakfast 

Scenario 8: loll even with PS 100% Kyuubi,, SS CK and RH... Madara doesn't have shit on juubito 
2-3 juubi TBB will break PS... 5 will break SS... Really juubitp stomps him

Jus read that he gets no rest... Idk tbh 
Madara is alive after all so I'd say he goes up till 5 if not definitely loses 6


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 10, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Scenario 7: Madara gets rapestomped here.. *Hashirama alone isn't too far from current Madara*,, with BSM Naruto and the other hokage will eat him for breakfast



The bolded is not true at all, Madara is far superior to Hashirama currently, and when I say far I really mean far superior. Though your probably right as far as Madara loosing goes. 



> Scenario 8: loll even with PS 100% Kyuubi,, SS CK and RH... Madara doesn't have shit on juubito
> 2-3 juubi TBB will break PS... 5 will break SS... Really juubitp stomps him



Not true at all, RH would not be countered by Juubito, only tanked. Madara is allowed to use all the paths, Juubito has only shown two. In fact, what saves Juubito from the pollen of Kajukai Korin? Not to mention Madara has SM to make his techs stronger.


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## Trojan (Jan 10, 2014)

> Foes:
> - living Itachi



Madara stomps, no difficult. 


> - Kisame, Kakuzu, Sasori and Deidara. Deidara will only use CO when he's the last one left and when he is desperate.



Madara wins. He may get hurts depending on how cocky he is. But, since he has Zetsu's knowledge here, he will not get C4 directly, or at least will try to not be caught by it! If Diedara succeeded then madara will die obviously.  The same if he was scratch by Sasori. 


> - SM Naruto, Kakashi, Obito, Gai, Yamato, both Ino-Shika-Cho (old and new gen) and Hidan.



obito solos. Madara does not have any thing that can attack obito by. He also can't avoid 
Kakashi's Kamui. 



> How far does Madara Haxchia get?



3rd round and he's done for.


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## ARGUS (Jan 10, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> The bolded is not true at all, Madara is far superior to Hashirama currently, and when I say far I really mean far superior. Though your probably right as far as Madara loosing goes.
> 
> 
> Not true at all, RH would not be countered by Juubito, only tanked. Madara is allowed to use all the paths, Juubito has only shown two. In fact, what saves Juubito from the pollen of Kajukai Korin? Not to mention Madara has SM to make his techs stronger.



Not really that far since Madara still hasn't shown us SS though we assume that he can use it 
but I dnt think he can combine it with PS,,, since SS towers over it 
Hashirama is still more adept with Mokuton and since Madara is alive,,,  Hashirama has more chakra reserves due to his Senju heritage 
At the moment the gap isn't that far,, but it will probably increase once MAdara shows us more OP rinnegan techniques 

Have u seen the speed durability, offense and defence feats of Juubito,,, they are still atleast 2 tiers above even Madaras
are u kidding me,,, flower tree worlds pollen will be easily destroyed by a TBB
SM or not,, u  need like FTG level speed to prevent u from getting raped by Juubito
SS PS or whatever MAdara throws at Juubito will be laughed at by Onmyodon,, or his TBB
Power of Juubis Jinchuuriki >>>> power of Rinnegan


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 10, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Not really that far since Madara still hasn't shown us SS though we assume that he can use it
> but I dnt think he can combine it with PS,,, since SS towers over it
> Hashirama is still more adept with Mokuton and since Madara is alive,,,  Hashirama has more chakra reserves due to his Senju heritage
> At the moment the gap isn't that far,, but it will probably increase once MAdara shows us more OP rinnegan techniques



No, though its true that Madara probably can't summon SS, and that SS towers over PS, and that Hashirama is more adept with Mokouton then Madara its, its not true that Hashirama has more charka anymore. You have to remember that Madara with just EMS had comparable chakra to Hashirama before, now that essentially his body has Hashiramas DNA his chakra supply obviously grew drastically. He should have nearly double the amount of charka that Hashirama has, seeing as how he has both his Uchiha chakra reserve which is comparable to Hashiramas in itself and add Hshiramas very own chakra reserve. The gap is quiet huge now, though logically Hashirama should be more adept at Mokouton, its obviously not by that much. Madara now has his healing and SM as well, which were Hashirama unique traits that he had over Madara. Add the fact that he can use all his EMS Jutsu and now has the Rinnnengan he should be far above Hashirama. 



> Have u seen the speed durability, offense and defence feats of Juubito,,, they are still atleast 2 tiers above even Madaras
> are u kidding me,,, flower tree worlds pollen will be easily destroyed by a TBB
> SM or not,, u  need like FTG level speed to prevent u from getting raped by Juubito
> SS PS or whatever MAdara throws at Juubito will be laughed at by Onmyodon,, or his TBB
> Power of Juubis Jinchuuriki >>>> power of Rinnegan



No, no they are not, Sasuke was able to easily react to Juubito second time around . And its pretty obvious Madara is more adept at using the Sharingan then Sasuke, so he would be able to track down Juubito even easier not to mention he is physically a lot faster then Sasuke being able to blitz both Sai and SM Naruto, something even the 3rd Raikage in V1 was not able to do. Madara's durability is also amazing, seeing as how he took a beating from every single one of the tailed beasts and hardly took any damage (other then the initial Shukaku+Gaara combo) while a simply SM Odama Rasengan was able to burst a hole in Juubito. And Madara's healing factor is also amazing. Madara has PS and/or Gedo Mazu (maybe he can cover Gedo Mazu in PS cloack like he did to Kurama? I don't see why not) while Juubito has his black shield, I'm inclined to give the edge in Defense to Madara. As far as offence goes in terms of sheer DC the edge would go to Juubito, but in terms of efficiency I would have to say Madara has the edge with something like RH. The pollen could work, I don't see why not, when has Juubito shown instant Bijudamas? Because Kajukai Korin covers a battlefield in an instant. Of course *with intel  * Juubito can fly, without it he is in a much tougher position. There are also the 25 Mokouton clones. Overall, though physically Juubito has the edge in overall efficiency of Jutsu Madara is much more versatile.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 11, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> No, though its true that Madara probably can't summon SS, and that SS towers over PS, and that Hashirama is more adept with Mokouton then Madara its, its not true that Hashirama has more charka anymore. You have to remember that Madara with just EMS had comparable chakra to Hashirama before, now that essentially his body has Hashiramas DNA his chakra supply obviously grew drastically. He should have nearly double the amount of charka that Hashirama has, seeing as how he has both his Uchiha chakra reserve which is comparable to Hashiramas in itself and add Hshiramas very own chakra reserve. The gap is quiet huge now, though logically Hashirama should be more adept at Mokouton, its obviously not by that much. Madara now has his healing and SM as well, which were Hashirama unique traits that he had over Madara. Add the fact that he can use all his EMS Jutsu and now has the Rinnnengan he should be far above Hashirama.


all you did was list all of the fluff in madaras arsenal. 

is he also stronger than hashirama because of his gunbai and sickle? 

madara already lost against hashirama with edo tensei healing, his chakra levels were a nonfactor when they fought. madara doesnt have hashiramas chakra anyway. 

he only has the life force of his cells which he stated himself.

madara fans constantly said that madara can combine every single power he has but not only has he never done this is the hundred chapter time span that he has been reintroduced in the manga, but such a hypothetical scenario for madara beating hashirama was already shut down by kishi when he showed their fight.


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## Trojan (Jan 11, 2014)

Madara is stronger than Hashirama. That's so obvious.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 11, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> all you did was list all of the fluff in madaras arsenal.
> 
> is he also stronger than hashirama because of his gunbai and sickle?



Overall power wise the Gunbai helps, in a 1 V 1 between the two it is a non-factor. 



> madara already lost against hashirama with edo tensei healing, his chakra levels were a nonfactor when they fought. madara doesnt have hashiramas chakra anyway.



So what? I was stated that Edo Tensei are weaker then there normal selfs, while the Edo Kages where virtually at full strength as stated by Tobirama. We also don't know what they used in that battle, he may very well have not used anything like RH. 



> he only has the life force of his cells which he stated himself.



Yeah because Hashirama's DNA does not amplify virtually anything right  



> madara fans constantly said that madara can combine every single power he has but not only has he never done this is the hundred chapter time span that he has been reintroduced in the manga, but such a hypothetical scenario for madara beating hashirama was already shut down by kishi when he showed their fight.



He does not need to combine *everything* he has, EMS+Rinnengan is sufficient. Its also pretty clear that we have not seen Madara use something like the paths due to plot purposes. Madara is clearly superior to Hashirama, I don't know why you are denying it, he has basically everything Hashirama has and much much more. 

FYI Madara is not my favourite character, while I can see that Hashirama is clearly yours.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 11, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Overall power wise the Gunbai helps, in a 1 V 1 between the two it is a non-factor.


no, the gunbai doesnt help power wise. did the gunbai affect his performance when he used his full power?




> So what? I was stated that Edo Tensei are weaker then there normal selfs,


no, this wasnt stated. the only cases for this are part 1 hashirama and tobirama.
living madara has no power advantage over edo madara. living madara is more dangerous because he is bloodlusted.


> while the Edo Kages where virtually at full strength as stated by Tobirama. We also don't know what they used in that battle, he may very well have not used anything like RH.


the only thing they were restricted from using is PS and the mokujin. whatever they used is beyond the scale than any of madaras techs that he received from enhancements since the explosion between their clash was as large as multiple mountains.




> Yeah because Hashirama's DNA does not amplify virtually anything right


madara stated what he got from hashiramas cells and there is absolutely no reason for you to extrapolate.




> He does not need to combine *everything* he has, EMS+Rinnengan is sufficient. Its also pretty clear that we have not seen Madara use something like the paths due to plot purposes.


ridiculous excuse. you are just arguing beyond canon now.


> Madara is clearly superior to Hashirama, I don't know why you are denying it, he has basically everything Hashirama has and much much more.


he hasnt even shown all of base hashiramas mokuton and has used none of sm hashiramas mokuton.

madara has wood clones, jukai koutan, mokuryu, the flower world and hashiramas healing.

none of these are even on the tier of the mokujin which even base hashirama can use.


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## fior fior (Jan 11, 2014)

> This is living Madara with both Rinnegan eyes and Hashirama's Sage Mode.
> Assume he can use all Rinnegan jutsu used by Nagato/Obito.



He crushes his opponents in every round. Nobody stands so much as a hundredth; no, a millionth, of a fighting chance.


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## Trojan (Jan 11, 2014)

fior fior said:


> He crushes his opponents in every round. Nobody stands so much as a hundredth; no, a millionth, of a fighting chance.



How can he even touch obito? 
What can he do against the Frog Song?  
How can he avoid kakashi's Kamui?


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## ARGUS (Jan 11, 2014)

fior fior said:


> He crushes his opponents in every round. Nobody stands so much as a hundredth; no, a millionth, of a fighting chance.



Madara gets horribly stomped in the last 2 matchups and this is coming from a madara fan
especially since he gets no rest at all after each match 
Edo Hokage including Hashirama with BSM Naruto is tooo much and they can easily overpower Madara  
Juubito is also a tier above Madara


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## Bonly (Jan 11, 2014)

Round five,six, and seven are the only ones I see Madara losing more times then not or a 50/50 shot, the rest he should win more times then not.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 12, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> no, the gunbai doesnt help power wise. did the gunbai affect his performance when he used his full power?



It CAN affect his performance, without intel many characters can fall to such a haxed ability. 





> no, this wasnt stated. the only cases for this are part 1 hashirama and tobirama.



Wrong it WAS  stated by Hashirama and MADARA himself implied it. 



> living madara has no power advantage over edo madara. living madara is more dangerous because he is bloodlusted.



Wrong, Madara was simply resurrected weaker in some way then his mortal self, how I do not know but its a fact that he was weaker as an Edo as stated by both him and Hashirama. 



> the only thing they were restricted from using is PS and the mokujin. whatever they used is beyond the scale than any of madaras techs that he received from enhancements since the explosion between their clash was as large as multiple mountains.



Madara was weaker as an Edo, this is a FACT that you cannot deny, he's proving it right now. 





> madara stated what he got from hashiramas cells and there is absolutely no reason for you to extrapolate.



Dude its basically a fact that Madara has more chakra with Hashirama's DNA. It it goes as far as to have to the same healing effect as Hashirama its pretty obvious that Madara also gains a considerable portion of Hashirama's chakra. 





> ridiculous excuse. you are just arguing beyond canon now.



No, what is ridiculous is that you think that Hashirama is near as strong as a Madara with his techniques, his own techniques as well as an added Rinnengan and Gedo Mazu as a summoning when he had trouble with Madara's power alone. This is not ridiculous as he has already showed the ability to use 3 of the paths (Preta, Animal and Nakara) as well as a implied path (Deva) and even goes as far as to say he will TEACH Obito the paths and you are telling me he did not use the paths not because of the plot reasons? 



> he hasnt even shown all of base hashiramas mokuton and has used none of sm hashiramas mokuton.



All of base Hashirama's Mokouton? If he can use something like Kajukai Korin its pretty obvious he can use most of Hashiramas Mokouton (probably everything other then maybe Mokujin) and there is no such thing as SM Hashiramas Mokouton, that's a term that you simply made up. And you call my claims ridiculous. 



> madara has wood clones, jukai koutan, mokuryu, the flower world and hashiramas healing.
> 
> none of these are even on the tier of the mokujin which even base hashirama can use.



Wrong, the flower world ( AKA Kajukai Korin) is more OP then Mokujin. And again, base Hashiramas Mokouton and SM Hashiramas Mokouton are one and the same until feats show otherwise.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> It CAN affect his performance, without intel many characters can fall to such a haxed ability.


any character that can competently fight PS shits on base madara without effort regardless of knowledge.






> Wrong it WAS  stated by Hashirama and MADARA himself implied it.


where did hashirama say that living madara>edo madara?

the only thing that madara said is that he can finally feel the fight which would mean that his superiority over his edo counterpart is psychological, not physiological.




> Wrong, Madara was simply resurrected weaker in some way then his mortal self, how I do not know but its a fact that he was weaker as an Edo as stated by both him and Hashirama.


this is the result of you trying to warp the manga to fit your views.

post the scan of madara saying that he was physically weaker as an edo tensei.




> Madara was weaker as an Edo, this is a FACT that you cannot deny, he's proving it right now.


no he isnt. nothing he is doing now is greater than what he could do as an edo. show me the scan of gedo mazo destroying mountains.






> Dude its basically a fact that Madara has more chakra with Hashirama's DNA. It it goes as far as to have to the same healing effect as Hashirama its pretty obvious that Madara also gains a considerable portion of Hashirama's chakra.


which is why edo madara outlasted hashirama when they fought right? having hashiramas dna gives you his physical energy, not his chakra.






> No, what is ridiculous is that you think that Hashirama is near as strong as a Madara with his techniques, his own techniques as well as an added Rinnengan and Gedo Mazu as a summoning when he had trouble with Madara's power alone.


madaras power is greater than anything he received after his death and this is stated by madara himself:



> This is not ridiculous as he has already showed the ability to use 3 of the paths (Preta, Animal and Nakara) as well as a implied path (Deva) and even goes as far as to say he will TEACH Obito the paths and you are telling me he did not use the paths not because of the plot reasons?


this response goes beyond canon and is therefore irrelevant. we discuss actual canon, not why you think madara didnt do this and that.




> All of base Hashirama's Mokouton? If he can use something like Kajukai Korin its pretty obvious he can use most of Hashiramas Mokouton (probably everything other then maybe Mokujin)


there is no "he can probably use everything else". 

he either used it or he didnt.


> and there is no such thing as SM Hashiramas Mokouton, that's a term that you simply made up. And you call my claims ridiculous.


shinsuusenju isnt sm hashiramas mokuton? please stop embarrassing yourself.


> Wrong, the flower world ( AKA Kajukai Korin) is more OP then Mokujin.


this nonsense is going into my sig.

madara can use the flower world, he stated that PS is his full power, PS destroyed the flower world with one swing of its blade, the mokujin clashed equally with PS.


> And again, base Hashiramas Mokouton and SM Hashiramas Mokouton are one and the same until feats show otherwise.


something else that is going into my sig.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 12, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> any character that can competently fight PS shits on base madara without effort regardless of knowledge.



Do characters go straight to there strongest Jutsu? I guess there is no such thing as IC right? I'm speaking with a absolute genius here 







> where did hashirama say that living madara>edo madara?



Are you blind? I litterly gave you the links to both examples.  



> the only thing that madara said is that he can finally feel the fight which would mean that his superiority over his edo counterpart is psychological, not physiological.



There is no point in debating with you is there............Not only did I post the links but I even made the words big so you can notice them, your ignorance is blinding you. 




> this is the result of you trying to warp the manga to fit your views.
> 
> post the scan of madara saying that he was physically weaker as an edo tensei.



Already posted a scan of him saying he can fight at full power. 





> no he isnt. nothing he is doing now is greater than what he could do as an edo. show me the scan of gedo mazo destroying mountains.



Is restraining every single Biju 1-9 with simply chains not good enough for you? Or how about his huge electric like burst that sent two huge characters flying. RH he did not use as an Edo as well. 







> which is why edo madara outlasted hashirama when they fought right? having hashiramas dna gives you his physical energy, not his chakra.



Really? Do you not know the significance of EDO, I should actually do the same thing your doing withy your sig, cause this is some complete nonsense. 




> madaras power is greater than anything he received after his death and this is stated by madara himself:



He clearly states that he can finally fight at full power in the most recent chapter,  stop being ignorant. 




> this response goes beyond canon and is therefore irrelevant. we discuss actual canon, not why you think madara didnt do this and that.



It does not go beyond canon, by your logic Hashirama cannot se Adventof of flowering trees becuas end has not shown to be able to...........it is just as implied that Madara can use all the paths as Hashirama can use Adent of flowering trees. Your probably the most biased person I have ever encountered. 





> there is no "he can probably use everything else".
> 
> he either used it or he didnt.




That's BS, if he can use a higher level Mokouton then it stands to reason that he can use the weaker ones as well, the ones he saw Hashirama use at the very least. 



> shinsuusenju isnt sm hashiramas mokuton? please stop embarrassing yourself.
> 
> this nonsense is going into my sig.



I thought we already discussed and agreed that Madara cannot use Shinsuusenju, so I excluded it, so because you lack comprehension let me rephrase that, Hashirama has no feats in SM that are different form base OTHER than Shinsuusenju. Also, I was referring to the strength of there Mokouton being one and the same, not the new techniques, but it seems you lack reading comprehension so I can't blame you there. 



> madara can use the flower world, he stated that PS is his full power, PS destroyed the flower world with one swing of its blade, the mokujin clashed equally with PS.



PS never destroyed flower world, Jinton did. Stop pulling sht out of your as*.


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## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2014)

Elia said:


> Madara is stronger than Hashirama. That's so obvious.



a living madara is stronger than edo hashirama.edo's dont have their full power.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 12, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> a living madara is stronger than edo hashirama.edo's dont have their full power.



The Edo Hokage do, Tobirama said they virtually had there full strength.

BTW Shinobi No Kami: Add the full truth to your sig, don't cut out the portions that would make me look bad when I had a explanation to the conditions under which I posted that comment. Also, how is saying "Kajukai Korin is more OP then Mokujin" a fail? Putting that in your sig only make you look bad...........as it is no where near a fail.


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## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> The Edo Hokage do, Tobirama said they virtually had there full strength.
> 
> BTW Shinobi No Kami: Add the full truth to your sig, don't cut out the portions that would make me look bad when I had a explanation to the conditions under which I posted that comment. Also, how is saying "Kajukai Korin is more OP then Mokujin" a fail? Putting that in your sig only make you look bad...........as it is no where near a fail.


tobirama said they 'almost' have their full power.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Do characters go straight to there strongest Jutsu?



well at least madara was at full power here.


> I guess there is no such thing as IC right? I'm speaking with a absolute genius here


your speaking to someone who read the manga. it doesnt take a genius to properly comprehend it.





> Are you blind? I litterly gave you the links to both examples.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no point in debating with you is there............Not only did I post the links but I even made the words big so you can notice them, your ignorance is blinding you.


hashirama stated that living madara was regaining his full power. hashirama drained edo madaras chakra. since madara was revived by rinne tensei he regained it all back hence hashiramas statement.





> Already posted a scan of him saying he can fight at full power.


no you dont. thats why you should only use the VIZ or the original japanese text when you try to prove something.

_Madara: *"Finally, I can fight for real!*

This is the form, the body I needed!

*It's not a battle without raging blood and a pounding heart!!"*
(Sfx: Ba-dmp Ba-dmp)_

madara said nothing about himself lacking power. he says that he can fight for real because he actually has sensations in a living body.




> Is restraining every single Biju 1-9 with simply chains not good enough for you? Or how about his huge electric like burst that sent two huge characters flying. RH he did not use as an Edo as well.


moves that do absolutely no destruction to the landscape arent above PS. madaras statement about PS being his full power stands until he states otherwise.







> Really? Do you not know the significance of EDO, I should actually do the same thing your doing withy your sig, cause this is some complete nonsense.



them being edo is irrelevant. after hashirama fought madara, madara didnt even have chakra use ninjutsu, where as hashirama could still use myoujinmon.




> He clearly states that he can finally fight at full power in the most recent chapter,  stop being ignorant.


_Madara: *"Finally, I can fight for real!*

This is the form, the body I needed!

*It's not a battle without raging blood and a pounding heart!!"*
(Sfx: Ba-dmp Ba-dmp)_





> It does not go beyond canon, by your logic Hashirama cannot se Adventof of flowering trees becuas end has not shown to be able to...........it is just as implied that Madara can use all the paths as Hashirama can use Adent of flowering trees. Your probably the most biased person I have ever encountered.


the flower world is stated to be hashiramas technique, but if you want it excluded, it doesnt matter. the power level of that technique means nothing when comparing hashirama and madara.







> That's BS, if he can use a higher level Mokouton then it stands to reason that he can use the weaker ones as well, the ones he saw Hashirama use at the very least.


"madara can use it because i say so"




> I thought we already discussed and agreed that Madara cannot use Shinsuusenju, so I excluded it, so because you lack comprehension let me rephrase that, Hashirama has no feats in SM that are different form base OTHER than Shinsuusenju. Also, I was referring to the strength of there Mokouton being one and the same, not the new techniques, but it seems you lack reading comprehension so I can't blame you there.


you said that there was no difference between base and sm hashiramas mokuton. i refuted it. dont get salty.




> PS never destroyed flower world, Jinton did. Stop pulling sht out of your as*.


correction. jinton destroyed the pollen. madara destroyed base hashiramas power(flower world) and his rinnegans power or rikudo sennins power as you fans like to call it(meteors) with his ems power alone(PS)


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 12, 2014)

If Madara doesn't dick around and uses PS generously I don't think he'll face any kind of difficulty till 6th match.

If he manages to clear that he certainly loses the next one.

Imo 7th round is harder than the last one.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 12, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> tobirama said they 'almost' have their full power.



Tobirama said they where virtually  at full strength which either means they were at full strength or at like 99%. 



Shinobi no Kami said:


> well at least madara was at full power here.



Yes because he was fighting Hashirama, the only person who he deems worthy of trying all out against. That does not apply to most other characters and therefore, his Gunbai can be a factor against those most other characters. 



> your speaking to someone who read the manga. it doesnt take a genius to properly comprehend it.



Wether you read the manga or not is irrelevant to the fact that you don't know what IC means. 





> hashirama stated that living madara was regaining his full power. hashirama drained edo madaras chakra. since madara was revived by rinne tensei he regained it all back hence hashiramas statement.



LOL no, he meant that Madara had regained his full power, not that he regained his chakra, otherwise it would have been stated as the former. And Madara said it himself right when he was resurrected. Is it really that hard to accept a fact? 





> no you dont. thats why you should only use the VIZ or the original japanese text when you try to prove something.



Yes because everyone understands Japanese right? 

[





> I]Madara: *"Finally, I can fight for real!*
> 
> This is the form, the body I needed!
> 
> ...



Where did you get this from? 







> moves that do absolutely no destruction to the landscape arent above PS. madaras statement about PS being his full power stands until he states otherwise.



It does not matter what he says about such trivial things like"his power" seeing as how many characters state something is proven otherwise about there own/or someone else's power. Something like Kajukai Korin is more effective then PS agaisnt some people, while PS is more effective against others. You have very flawed logic here, a Jutsu does not need to be destructive to be more effective then a Jutsu that is. Those Chains are more effective in most instantces then PS is. Rinbo Hengoku is much less destructive then PS and yet way more OP. 






> them being edo is irrelevant. after hashirama fought madara, madara didnt even have chakra use ninjutsu, where as hashirama could still use myoujinmon.



Ok then, lets say that's true, Madara had done so many crazy Jutsu during his stay in the war while Hashirama was only beggining to fight. Yet Hashirama was almost as exaghsted as Madara was........which means that Madara in fact did gain much more chakra with Hashiramas DNA. 






> the flower world is stated to be hashiramas technique, but if you want it excluded, it doesnt matter. the power level of that technique means nothing when comparing hashirama and madara.



See, you admit that Flower world should be Hashiramas technique but you refuse to believe that Madara cannot use any of the paths that he has not shown or the lower level Mokouotn Jutsu? Your wing biased. 






> "madara can use it because i say so"



No because he has seen them with the Sharingan and now has the ability to use them, and even displayed high level Mokouton before. 




> you said that there was no difference between base and sm hashiramas mokuton. i refuted it. dont get salty.



Yes strength wise, I never denied that SM grants him an extra Mokouton move that is his strongest. I denied the fact that in SM his Mokouton gets stronger then his base Mokouton (and this is because you deny that Madara cannot use weak Mokouton and paths) but not that he does not get an added move once he goes into SM, there is a diffrence. 




> correction. jinton destroyed the pollen. madara destroyed base hashiramas power(flower world) and his rinnegans power or rikudo sennins power as you fans like to call it(meteors) with his ems power alone(PS)



Wrong, he destroyed a small portion of it, unless you think the PS slash affected the entire battlefield 

And again, add the full story to your "fail" list (which ironically is kinda fail of you) or take it out.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 12, 2014)

A lot of interesting points brought up, however I'd like to bring up a number of things:



OP said:


> *Conditions:* _-snip-_ [Madara] has access to his Zetsu network and black Zetsu; he has the latter's knowledge.


Wouldn't Zetsu make a difference?

Also Madara arguably has Hashirama's weaker regeneration in his base mode, and Hashirama's well known regeneration in SM. 
Surely that makes some sort of difference?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Yes because he was fighting Hashirama, the only person who he deems worthy of trying all out against. That does not apply to most other characters and therefore, his Gunbai can be a factor against those most other characters.


you said something along of the lines "because characters start out at full power right?"

any character that would have power on the level of madaras PS wont have any trouble with his fan regardless of knowledge.

i posted the scan of madara using his full power off of the bat. nothing more, nothing less. nothing more needs to be said on this.




> Wether you read the manga or not is irrelevant to the fact that you don't know what IC means.


it means in character. its IC for madara to use PS right away against hashirama. i know that he wont do that against everybody.






> LOL no, he meant that Madara had regained his full power, not that he regained his chakra, otherwise it would have been stated as the former. And Madara said it himself right when he was resurrected. Is it really that hard to accept a fact?


yeah, because he didnt have enough power to do anything after he fought hashirama. he regained it after he was revived.






> Yes because everyone understands Japanese right?
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you get this from?



2







> It does not matter what he says about such trivial things like"his power" seeing as how many characters state something is proven otherwise about there own/or someone else's power. Something like Kajukai Korin is more effective then PS agaisnt some people, while PS is more effective against others. You have very flawed logic here, a Jutsu does not need to be destructive to be more effective then a Jutsu that is. Those Chains are more effective in most instantces then PS is. Rinbo Hengoku is much less destructive then PS and yet way more OP.


PS would have outright mutilated the biju as none of them have the feats to tank its slash, especially the hachibi.

madara wants to capture the biju, so using moves that wouldnt do fatal harm to the biju would be best.







> Ok then, lets say that's true, Madara had done so many crazy Jutsu during his stay in the war while Hashirama was only beggining to fight. Yet Hashirama was almost as exaghsted as Madara was........which means that Madara in fact did gain much more chakra with Hashiramas DNA.


this is some truly desperate reaching.

madara who was sitting down for the majority of the time that hashirama was on the battlefield was chakra depleted? madara showed no signs of ever being close to being out of chakra. 







> See, you admit that Flower world should be Hashiramas technique but you refuse to believe that Madara cannot use any of the paths that he has not shown or the lower level Mokouotn Jutsu? Your wing biased.



its stated to be hashiramas technique. hashirama having a technique thats stated to be his=/=madara using every path of the rinnegan and all of hashiramas mokuton.






> No because he has seen them with the Sharingan and now has the ability to use them, and even displayed high level Mokouton before.


and?

he still only has the mokuton he has shown.





> Yes strength wise, I never denied that SM grants him an extra Mokouton move that is his strongest. I denied the fact that in SM his Mokouton gets stronger then his base Mokouton (and this is because you deny that Madara cannot use weak Mokouton and paths) but not that he does not get an added move once he goes into SM, there is a diffrence.



i never stated that the mokuton that hashirama uses in base is empowered by sm.

the mokuton that madara has not shown isnt "weak mokuton". that mokuton is above any mokuton that madara has shown.




> Wrong, he destroyed a small portion of it, unless you think the PS slash affected the entire battlefield


the only portion that it didnt destroy was the portion behind it.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 12, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> you said something along of the lines "because characters start out at full power right?"
> 
> any character that would have power on the level of madaras PS wont have any trouble with his fan regardless of knowledge.



Absolutely false, Naruto in BM was On the same level as PS and yet Madara easily destroyed one of his precious clones. What would have happened if Naruto was it fighting Obito earlier and so did not have a clone? He would have lost right there and then. This is I believe the third or fourth time you have been making such flawed logic. Use your reasoning. 



> i posted the scan of madara using his full power off of the bat. nothing more, nothing less. nothing more needs to be said on this.



I guess Minato is the strongest Hokage then right?  




> it means in character. its IC for madara to use PS right away against hashirama. i know that he wont do that against everybody.



Oh ok, your talking about Facing Hashirama here? Well I was talking about overall power but it really makes no difference I guess. 





> yeah, because he didnt have enough power to do anything after he fought hashirama. he regained it after he was revived.



Sigh...........no, because gage gained power after being revived. I'm not stressing this any further, you could drop it. 




> PS would have outright mutilated the biju as none of them have the feats to tank its slash, especially the hachibi.
> 
> madara wants to capture the biju, so using moves that wouldnt do fatal harm to the biju would be best.



No, he simply would have been a huge target for a Bijudama barrage, while RH was clearly more efficient as it is both faster then PS and unpredictable attacks unlike PS. Fatal blows would be best against the Biju, as long as it does not kill them before he can seal them.  





> this is some truly desperate reaching.
> 
> madara who was sitting down for the majority of the time that hashirama was on the battlefield was chakra depleted? madara showed no signs of ever being close to being out of chakra.



I am willing to do anything to get a fact through that thick head of yours. At this point I'm probably just going to give up as it is futile. 

Madara had done way more then Hashirama, 25 Susanoo clones, several large scale Mokouton Jutsu, PS, Meteors, raped fodder, raped the Kages off screen, fought Naruto, Hachibi and Gai, controlled the Jubi, fought Hashirama and finally got tired off screen. 






> its stated to be hashiramas technique. hashirama having a technique thats stated to be his=/=madara using every path of the rinnegan and all of hashiramas mokuton.



Madara also stated that he would teach all the paths to Obito implying he knows them the paths, he then goes on to use most of them but not in crucial moments. He has seen Hashirama's basic Mokouton with the Sharingan and has displayed enormous scale and high level Mokouton. Il up the scale a little bit, Hashirama cannot use any of the Mokouton Jutsu other then the ones he displayed against Madara and the one he displayed against Hiruzen.............this includes things like 25 Mokouton clones, this is all going off of your logic of course. 







> and?
> 
> he still only has the mokuton he has shown.



This is futile, you ignore everything. 







> i never stated that the mokuton that hashirama uses in base is empowered by sm.
> 
> the mokuton that madara has not shown isnt "weak mokuton". that mokuton is above any mokuton that madara has shown.



No that's just what you think, The only Mokouton tech that is more efficient then Kajukai Korin is the Budha. Especially when it comes to facing numerous people. 




> the only portion that it didnt destroy was the portion behind it.



And the portion in FRONT of it as well as the portion on its left.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Absolutely false, Naruto in BM was On the same level as PS and yet Madara easily destroyed one of his precious clones. What would have happened if Naruto was it fighting Obito earlier and so did not have a clone? He would have lost right there and then. This is I believe the third or fourth time you have been making such flawed logic. Use your reasoning.


whats your point?

1. naruto isnt on the level of madaras PS.

2. that was a clone.

3. madara destroying the clone didnt affect the battle in any way.




> I guess Minato is the strongest Hokage then right?


how?





> Sigh...........no, because gage gained power after being revived. I'm not stressing this any further, you could drop it.



the manga doesnt say this. i see madara stating that he can finally feel the fight in a living body and thats it.




> No, he simply would have been a huge target for a Bijudama barrage, while RH was clearly more efficient as it is both faster then PS and unpredictable attacks unlike PS.


the mazo is a huge target for bijudama as well. you dont see it getting instantly blown up now do you?


> Fatal blows would be best against the Biju, as long as it does not kill them before he can seal them.


when has a biju been shown to survive being slashed in half? 

inb4 tsunade comparison.





> Madara had done way more then Hashirama, 25 Susanoo clones, several large scale Mokouton Jutsu, PS, Meteors, raped fodder, raped the Kages off screen, fought Naruto, Hachibi and Gai, controlled the Jubi, fought Hashirama and finally got tired off screen.


you forgot to include other menial chakra taxing tasks like using shunshin, a katon or flaring up his chakra to make a barrier around his gunbai.







> Madara also stated that he would teach all the paths to Obito implying he knows them the paths, he then goes on to use most of them but not in crucial moments. He has seen Hashirama's basic Mokouton with the Sharingan and has displayed enormous scale and high level Mokouton. Il up the scale a little bit, Hashirama cannot use any of the Mokouton Jutsu other then the ones he displayed against Madara and the one he displayed against Hiruzen.............this includes things like 25 Mokouton clones, this is all going off of your logic of course.


no, he stated that he would teach obito the six paths jutsu.


the same six paths jutsu that he stated to use black rods when using it:


hint:






> This is futile, you ignore everything.



i ignore your baseless claims.







> No that's just what you think, The only Mokouton tech that is more efficient then Kajukai Korin is the Budha. Especially when it comes to facing numerous people.


lets compare what the flower world did to the gokage compared to the equivalent of the mokujin which is PS.

the gokage avoided the flower world by flying and PS managed to knock the gokage away with a slash that wasnt even aimed at them.





> And the portion in FRONT of it as well as the portion on its left.


you forgot to include the little wood splinters scattered across the battlefield that wasnt destroyed. 

that is how much you are reaching.


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## Trojan (Jan 12, 2014)

> I guess Minato is the strongest Hokage then right?



Yes, he is.


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## BrokenBonds (Jan 12, 2014)

With no rests in between I don't see him getting past the sixth round.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 12, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> whats your point?
> 
> 1. naruto isnt on the level of madaras PS.
> 
> ...



1. Yes he is, BM/BSM Naruto is as strong if not slightly stronger then EMS Madara (without Kurama). 

2 and 3. Again, you ignore what I said..........I said what if it was not a clone? Had Naruto not made a clone before hand against Obito he would have charged in with his real body and got obliterated without intel. 





> how?



Because according to you all character statements are facts. 





> the mazo is a huge target for bijudama as well. you dont see it getting instantly blown up now do you?



Because Madara saying a phrase or two, jumped on the Mazu and used RH. That sequence would have endured about 5 secondsif we where to translate it to real time. 



> when has a biju been shown to survive being slashed in half?



Never, neither has a PS slash hit something like a Biju before. Madara himself stated that PS was as strong as a Biju (probably referring to Kurama, seeing as how he had Kurama and witnessed his power). 






> you forgot to include other menial chakra taxing tasks like using shunshin, a katon or flaring up his chakra to make a barrier around his gunbai.



Implying that bringing down Meteors would not be chakra taxing  implying that a Kajukai Korin covering the battlefield would not be chakra taxing  implying that making 25 Wood clones and then turning them into Susanoos is not chakra taxing 







> no, he stated that he would teach obito the six paths jutsu.
> 
> 
> the same six paths jutsu that he stated to use black rods when using it:
> ...



The 6 paths Jutsu as in referring to the 6 paths, which is how Obito knows how to use Human path or RT in the first place. 







> i ignore your baseless claims.



No you ignore 75% of the things I say and show in general, and then go on in mentioning things that I clearly countered. 







> lets compare what the flower world did to the gokage compared to the equivalent of the mokujin which is PS.
> 
> the gokage avoided the flower world by flying and PS managed to knock the gokage away with a slash that wasnt even aimed at them.



Mokujin =/= PS..........in a fight they are equal, but in overall efficiency PS has been shown to be much more potent, Mokujin simply does not have enough feats to put it above Kajukai Korin in efficiency.   




> you forgot to include the little wood splinters scattered across the battlefield that wasnt destroyed.
> 
> that is how much you are reaching.



Well given the fact that your claim was no where near what was in actuality how can you be saying that I am picky? Maybe if your claim was a bit more accurate I would not have mentioned anything.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> 1. Yes he is, BM/BSM Naruto is as strong if not slightly stronger then EMS Madara (without Kurama).


not when sasuke and his V3 susano was matching him feat for feat.


> 2 and 3. Again, you ignore what I said..........I said what if it was not a clone? Had Naruto not made a clone before hand against Obito he would have charged in with his real body and got obliterated without intel.



which situation exactly because there is more than one instance like that.





> Because according to you all character statements are facts.


i dont ever remember it being stated that minato is the strongest hokage.






> Because Madara saying a phrase or two, jumped on the Mazu and used RH. That sequence would have endured about 5 secondsif we where to translate it to real time.


 5 seconds.

madara summons the mazo here:


the biju have a conversation about madaras state:


obito and zetsu have a conversation that goes on for a few pages:



*Spoiler*: __ 








madara talks about hashiramas healing:


after all of this, he finally jumps on the mazo and uses rinbo.



> Never, neither has a PS slash hit something like a Biju before. Madara himself stated that PS was as strong as a Biju (probably referring to Kurama, seeing as how he had Kurama and witnessed his power).


he was speaking in a general sense. he compared a slash of PS to the power of a biju which is bijudama.







> Implying that bringing down Meteors would not be chakra taxing  implying that a Kajukai Korin covering the battlefield would not be chakra taxing  implying that making 25 Wood clones and then turning them into Susanoos is not chakra taxing


when you are talking about hashirama and madara level, its not. neither show fatigue after using large scale jutsu. they can use their trump cards casually.








> The 6 paths Jutsu as in referring to the 6 paths, which is how Obito knows how to use Human path or RT in the first place.


 
madara says that he would teach obito the 6 paths jutsu and then tells him to use chakra rods during the 6 paths jutsu. he was talking about controlling foreign bodies, not deva, preta, asura etc.







> No you ignore 75% of the things I say and show in general, and then go on in mentioning things that I clearly countered.



you countered nothing.







> Mokujin =/= PS..........in a fight they are equal, but in overall efficiency PS has been shown to be much more potent, Mokujin simply does not have enough feats to put it above Kajukai Korin in efficiency.


LOL

mokujin tanks the PS slash that destroys the flower world.

mokujin catches the bijudama that the flower world cant stop or resist.

there is a reason that hashirama used the mokujin against madara and not the flower world.





> Well given the fact that your claim was no where near what was in actuality how can you be saying that I am picky? Maybe if your claim was a bit more accurate I would not have mentioned anything.


yes you are making picky, desperate claims, which is why when i pointed out that PS destroyed the flower world, you pointed to a few tree logs in the bottom corner of the panel.


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## DeK3iDE (Jan 12, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> a living madara is stronger than edo hashirama.edo's dont have their full power.


that was only confirmed to be true in Madara's case. It's part of why Kabuto wanted a better grasp on the true lvl of his ability.



tkpirate said:


> tobirama said they 'almost' have their full power.


to which Hashirama retorted Tobirama just allowed himself to get rusty. I'm sure Hashirama would've been the first to notice a difference had that been the case.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 12, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> not when sasuke and his V3 susano was matching him feat for feat.
> 
> 
> which situation exactly because there is more than one instance like that.
> ...



You know what, lets agree to disagree, it should not concern me what one person thinks when 90% of the other people know otherwise. This has been going no where, instead of shortening the debate its growing larger because you ignore everything I say, I have lost interest in this long time ago. Keep dreaming that Hashirama is stronger then current Madara


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## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Tobirama said they where virtually  at full strength which either means they were at full strength or at like 99%.
> Again,tobirama used the word 'almost' or 'near' which means they're not at their full power.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 12, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> Destiny Monarch said:
> 
> 
> > Tobirama said they where virtually  at full strength which either means they were at full strength or at like 99%.
> ...


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## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> tkpirate said:
> 
> 
> > No he literally said Virtually which means very close to full strength.
> ...


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## ARGUS (Jan 13, 2014)

The ET used by Orochimaru were not revived at their MAXIMUM strength 
but almost near it 
So its proper to assume they were at about 95-97% of their strength


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## tkpirate (Jan 13, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> The ET used by Orochimaru were not revived at their MAXIMUM strength
> but almost near it
> So its proper to assume they were at about 95-97% of their strength



yeah we could assume that they have around 95% of their full power.


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## Rain (Jan 13, 2014)

Itachi wins.

Flawless victory.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 13, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> i'm talking about the words tobirama used.
> he didn't use the word 'virtually',he used the word 'almost' or 'near' which means they're close but not at their full power.



No dude, I'm telling you he literally said VIRTUALLY  straight from the manga.


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## tkpirate (Jan 13, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> No dude, I'm telling you he literally said VIRTUALLY  straight from the manga.



that translation isn't correct.all other translations say 'almost' or 'near'.also the meaning of virtually is 'almost but not quite'.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 13, 2014)

Even if Tobirama said ... its the same as all the other translations.

That mean that Hashirama was *mostly* at full power. Unlike Rikudou Madara, whom couldn't even use the Rinnegan to its full power. The evidence being that the Outer Path stakes didn't bind Hashirama until Madara came back to life.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 13, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Even if Tobirama said ... its the same as all the other translations.
> 
> That mean that Hashirama was *mostly* at full power. Unlike Rikudou Madara, whom couldn't even use the Rinnegan to its full power. The evidence being that the Outer Path stakes didn't bind Hashirama until Madara came back to life.



thats nonsense. madara couldnt bind hashirama because hashirama sapped all of madaras chakra.

madara coming to life didnt magically restrain hashirama.

when madara came back to life, he was revived in peak condition and gained enough chakra to use a seal to bind hashirama.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 13, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> thats nonsense. madara couldnt bind hashirama because hashirama sapped all of madaras chakra.
> 
> madara coming to life didnt magically restrain hashirama.
> 
> when madara came back to life, he was revived in peak condition and gained enough chakra to use a seal to bind hashirama.



Hashirama was stabbed with the Outer Path stakes several times (see his back) _before_ he stopped Madara's Preta Path. At full power, one stab would've ended things in Madara's favour. 

Explain why he was able to restrain Madara with the Outer Path stakes _only_ after returning to life? 

He had limitless chakra as an Edo Tensei, chakra wasn't an issue. The amount of power he had obviously was, as per his feats and the fact he explicitly said that he could use the Rinnegan's full power (this was _after_ he was brought back to life).


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 13, 2014)

I see him getting to round six with varying difficulties for each of the former rounds.

Round six, seven and eight are all too much for Hashidara, in my opinion.


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