# Zoro cannot be close to Luffy



## Shanks (Jan 3, 2017)

It would be pretty bullshit writing if Zoro =< Luffy like some people here keeps implying. And to the extend, lots of people say Zoro will defeat Jack or someone stronger, so he's already that strong. This couldn't be more wrong.

Let's have a quick look at thier growth rate, maybe starting from pre-skip Sabody Archipelo.

Zoro
- almost got killed by Kizaru and then got send flying by Kuma, therefore help his will power to train harder later
- Train with Mihawk for 2 years
- rekt fodders since the time skip

Luffy
- Got sent flying by Kuma
- fought Boa sisters
- went to hell and back multiple times at impel down
- marineford awesomeness
- Ace died in front of him
- Trained with Rayleigh for 18 months
- Self train for 6 months
- fought Doffy
- fought a lot of fodders also
- fought Cracker
- might go all out against Big Mom or her first mate soon

While I don't agree however, for argument sake, let's assume Luffy = Zoro at SA. To-date, Luffy had significantly more fighting experience and stronger will power and resolved to train. So if they were both 100 preskip, Luffy should be 1,000 now and at best Zoro can only be 700.

How, oh how people can logically believe Zoro is close to Luffy's level come Wano is interesting to say the least. Where is the feat, hype and portrayal that he is this strong?

Reactions: Like 4 | Disagree 11


----------



## savior2005 (Jan 3, 2017)

if luffy's a 100, then zoros prolly a 95. sanjis a 3

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 5 | Winner 1


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 3, 2017)

Luffy was a bit stronger right before the timeskip. Zoro had more intense training over the timeskip (he lost a fucking eye) with a slightly better teacher. On the other hand, Luffy came up with G4. Luffy has gotten way more experience since the timeskip, but the progress Luffy has made since the timeskip is beans compared to the progress he and Zoro made over the timeskip.

Luffy right now is still probably a little bit stronger than Zoro, but the gap is small. They're better against different opponents: Luffy struggles against people with exceptional endurance or defense who can outlast G4, while Zoro will be worse against most other opponents, especially brawlers.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 4


----------



## ajinko (Jan 3, 2017)

This is FACT.
Luffy > zoro = sanji.

zoro + sanji = luffy.

Don't believe me? watch the latest movie.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Creative 1 | Disagree 3 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 3, 2017)

ajinko said:


> Don't believe me? watch the _*latest*_ *movie.*


Is that true? I remember Zoro one shotting Sanji in a previous movie.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 4


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 3, 2017)

Underestimating the GrandMaster 

When will you guys learn

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## giantbiceps (Jan 3, 2017)

Luffy - 100
Zoron - 89
Sanji - 86

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


----------



## HawkEye13 (Jan 3, 2017)

But Zoro will defeat Jack/King/Shogun in Wano so unless Luffy solos Kaido and reach Yonko level next arc he will need high diff to beat Zoro.

Zoro didn't bleed once post time skip and I can almost gurrante an upgrated Asura won't be his strongest since that's an old move. By the end of Wano Zoro should be at least above Yonko 2nd commander level. The only way luffy would be way stronger is if he reaches Admiral level by post Wano.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## ajinko (Jan 3, 2017)

Luffy one shotted cracker a yonkou commander. Big Mom sent cracker becuz luffy beat doflamingo. doflamango high diffed law.  zoro needed his best attack to beat pica. 

Luffy > Cracker > Doflamingo > Law > Zoro. 

Luffy would mid diff zoro.

Reactions: Like 2 | Useful 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 3


----------



## HawkEye13 (Jan 3, 2017)

ajinko said:


> Luffy one shotted cracker a yonkou commander. Big Mom sent cracker becuz luffy beat doflamingo. doflamango high diffed law.  *zoro needed his best attack to beat pica. *
> 
> Luffy > Cracker > Doflamingo > Law > Zoro.
> 
> Luffy would mid diff zoro.



Even using the feats= everything, Zoro hasn't used Asura so you're automatically wrong. This without counting any new techniques sInce all his moves he shown so far are just upgraded pre skip moves.
If you think Oda is not going to make someone that held an admiral in his base form really fuckin strong then drop this manga.
Basis Aside, at full power
Luffy high diffs should Zoro who high diff Sanji.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## HawkEye13 (Jan 3, 2017)

One more thing. to make this simple just think of this as Roger and Rayleigh
You wouldn't think Roger would mid diff prime Rayleigh. If that's the case then Roger can mid diff Yonkos and literly no diff Yonko first mates. This means Roger could potentially defeat 2 Yonkos at the same time. 
Luffy will always need high diff at least to beat Zoro just like Roger will need high diff to beat Rayleigh

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1 | Useful 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Jan 3, 2017)

_Held an Admiral in his base form This earns my first smiley usage in 2017. Zoro fans are so proud and happy about Zoro escaping just with internal bleeding out of Fujitora's fodder cleaning technique. You know, the one that had the random cheater in the bar still fine and walking around a few minutes later ? And a Fujitora that was treating him with gloves to begin with, because he actually sympathized with the SH's. Looking at the size of the hole he created, he was more serious against the cheating guy.

We need to wank Brook now as well i guess, let's do it since he made it into that signature. How strong is Oda going to make someone who holds a Yonko in his base form ? 

And how about Carrot ? She escaped Zoro's attempt to harm her, and electrocuted him instead. Let's do some fun battledome scalling with her as well.

I do agree that Luffy does not beat Zoro easily though. Zoro and Sanji going all out would eventually force Luffy into G4, and if he has to do that, it's a victory obtained with high difficulty from his part._

Reactions: Like 4 | Disagree 3


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 4, 2017)

ajinko said:


> Luffy one shotted cracker a yonkou commander. Big Mom sent cracker becuz luffy beat doflamingo. doflamango high diffed law.  zoro needed his best attack to beat pica.
> Luffy > Cracker > Doflamingo > Law > Zoro.
> Luffy would mid diff zoro.



Every sentence in your post is wildly inaccurate. Luffy+Nami beat Cracker after 11 hours of fighting. I don't think you know what "one shotted" means. Luffy+Law lost to Doflamingo(+Trebol+Bellamy) and had to be rescued by Gatz and the other fodder. Doflamingo mid diffed Law. Zoro wrecked Pica, destroying the golem with an attack he had in East Blue.

Doflamingo > Cracker >= Luffy >= Zoro ~ Law.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Disagree 2 | Dislike 1


----------



## TheOnlyOne1 (Jan 4, 2017)

Like someone already said, if Luffy's a 100 than Zoro will be a 95. Which is a significant gap but not a huge one. And Sanji would be like a 90. Which is a pretty big gap compared to Luffy. But not enough for Sanji to be fodder. All 3 are A's in terms of grades.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Shanks (Jan 4, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Luffy was a bit stronger right before the timeskip. Zoro had more intense training over the timeskip (he lost a fucking eye) with a slightly better teacher. On the other hand, Luffy came up with G4. Luffy has gotten way more experience since the timeskip, but the progress Luffy has made since the timeskip is beans compared to the progress he and Zoro made over the timeskip.


I think we can all agree this is completely and utterly full of shit.

Luffy had more resolved and was training in forms than drains his life spam regularly.

Luffy is training with a wise old man with exceptionally more experience and have reached heights in his prime that Mihawk could never dream of reaching.

And even more interesting how you say fighting Doffy and Cracker is beans comparing to fighting monkeys.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 2


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 4, 2017)

Luffy and Zoro have always been portrayed to be nearly equal throughout the series. In fact, they themselves didnt know who was stronger back in Whiskey Peak. Its true that Luffy's opponents are always on a different level but he always needed massive help to beat his opponents. For example, Luffy beat Crocodile after 3 tries, beat Enel because of his rubber properties, beat Oz because of 100 shadows, beat Doffy because of Gamma knife, beat Cracker because of Nami's rain etc etc. In my opinion, with similar advantages, Zoro also had a great chance to beat all of Luffy's opponents except Rob Lucci. I think Zoro would have lost against Lucci. But the same can be said about Alabasta Luffy against Mr. 1, I dont see any way of Alabasta Luffy beating Mr. 1.

After timeskip, Zoro has shown only 4 new techniques, rokudo no tsuji (against Kraken), yakkodori (against Hody), daishinkan(against Monet) and baki (against Pica's bitestone). The rest of his techniques are just stronger version of his pre-TS techniques. Most of the new techniques are not so strong and Zoro surely has learnt at least one OP technique from Mihawk! Besides, Zoro hasnt shown some of his famous pre-timeskip moves yet such as rashomon, enbima yonezu onigiri, Hiryu Kaen and the his famous 9-sword style Asura. Zoro without Asura is like Luffy fighting without G4.

Zoro hasnt broken a sweat and he already has mountain level feats thats comparable to best feat of Trafalgar Law, one of the strongest supernovas of Luffy's generation. Thats where his hype is coming from. Oda's writing also doesnt help to dehype him. He didnt need to include Zoro in the worst generation, he could easily set the minimum bounty to 150 million, so only Luffy is a supernova or he could set the minimum bounty to 80 million, so Sanji could also be a part of it. But he set the bounty in such a way that only Luffy & Zoro can be part of it. Zoro's dialogues like, "_Luffy'd better be able to do that much or I'll have to take over as captain_" or Zoro trying to replace Luffy to fight Fuji for the 3rd time also doesnt help.

If you just look at their feats right now, you are right, Zoro (similar to Law or any other supernovas) is nowhere near Luffy. It would be something like,
Luffy - 100
Zoro - 80
Sanji - 30

But if you look at their portrayal and hype,
Luffy - 100
Zoro - 99
Sanji - 94

Reactions: Like 7 | Agree 1


----------



## Shanks (Jan 4, 2017)

The problem is if Zoro is infact that close to Luffy now, then he should be stronger than Luffy at fishman island, which is stupid and bad writing.


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 4, 2017)

Josh said:


> I think we can all agree this is completely and utterly full of shit.
> Luffy had more resolved and was training in forms than drains his life spam regularly.
> Luffy is training with a wise old man with exceptionally more experience and have reached heights in his prime that Mihawk could never dream of reaching.
> And even more interesting how you say fighting Doffy and Cracker is beans comparing to fighting monkeys.



Zoro trained for 2 years with literally the best possible teacher in the world for him so intensely that he lost a fucking eye. Luffy also trained 1.5 years with maybe the second or third best teacher for him (Garp as a brawler would probably have been a little better).
Yes, two fights is beans compared to training for 1.5 or 2 years with top tiers.
Mihawk is probably a small notch below Rayleigh. Didn't realize you were a Mihawk denialist.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 4, 2017)

Josh said:


> The problem is if Zoro is infact that close to Luffy now, then he should be stronger than Luffy at fishman island, which is stupid and bad writing.



From chapters 600-820, Luffy had one serious fight with an opponent on his level (or above), while Zoro had none. Since then, we haven't seen Zoro, so we don't know whether he has had any fights. But the safest assumption is that supernovas we don't see are progressing at around the same rate as Luffy, unless there's some indication otherwise.

The Doffy fight should've slightly increased the gap between Luffy and Zoro. If there was a tiny gap on Fishman island, then now there's a small but not insignificant gap.

Regardless of all this, I don't really think it matters at all whether Zoro was stronger than Luffy on Fishman Island, since neither of them came close to going all out there. What matters is how strong they are when we actually see them fight their hardest, and you can rest easy that when that happens, Luffy will be a bit stronger than Zoro.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Bogard (Jan 4, 2017)

Zoro defeated everyone he came across without receiving a scrath on him except an admiral he still got respectable portrayal against. With the portrayal Oda gave to Zoro since the timeskip, it's questionable especially when you realize that for the most part, he did all that while only using stronger versions of his old techniques that even seemed stronger than Luffy's pretimeskip high-end techniques, without him actually using his own(Asura) when on the other side as mentioned, Luffy not only showed his pretimeskip high-end techniques(evolved) and even beyond(G4 variants). So with the way Oda portrayed him since the new world, it looks like the Mihawk training may have been more effective but that's assuming he does have new techniques. Time will tell i guess

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2017)

Zoro said he was weaker than G2/3 Luffy at FI. How is this even a discussion?

This is coming from one of the biggest Zoro fans here.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 2 | Dislike 2


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 4, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Zoro said he was weaker than G2/3 Luffy at FI. How is this even a discussion?
> This is coming from one of the biggest Zoro fans here.



What are you on about? Zoro never compared himself to G2/G3.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 1


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> What are you on about? Zoro never compared himself to G2/G3.



He did when he said If Luffy ''couldn't do this much'' then he would have to take over as captain. 

This was all before he even saw G4.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 4, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> He did when he said If Luffy ''couldn't do this much'' then he would have to take over as captain.
> This was all before he even saw G4.



I assume you mean:

Sanji: Sovereign Haki... So he really does have the talent.
Zoro: That's what I expect from a guy who calls himself my Captain.

Zoro is referring to the fact that Luffy is a CoC user. Anyone fit to be Zoro's captain would have CoC. Zoro isn't comparing Luffy's gears to his own strength.

Reactions: Like 4 | Dislike 1


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> I assume you mean:
> 
> Sanji: Sovereign Haki... So he really does have the talent.
> Zoro: That's what I expect from a guy who calls himself my Captain.
> ...



The bolded part is speculation. Zoro's goal of being WSS is not that special. Mihawk is still a government dog.

He admits that he would not be able to do that much. Which means if he had Conqueror's haki, he would not be able to knock out as many as Luffy, meaning he is weaker than Luffy.

If he doesn't have CoC, then he is admitting that the 50 000 would take him to extreme diff as he said he could only handle 10 000 to Sanji. I am being generous with the extreme diff, he would probably die.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 4, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> The bolded part is speculation.
> He admits that he would not be able to do that much. Which means if he had Conqueror's haki, he would not be able to knock out as many as Luffy, meaning he is weaker than Luffy.
> If he doesn't have CoC, then he is admitting that the 50 000 would take him to extreme diff as he said he could only handle 10 000 to Sanji. I am being generous with the extreme diff, he would probably die.



It's not speculation. It's what Zoro is saying. He would expect CoC from anyone who would himself Zoro's captain.
Just in case you missed it:

Sanji: Sovereign Haki... So he really does have the talent.
Zoro: That's what I expect from a guy who calls himself my Captain.

I have no idea what the rest of your post is about. Zoro never says anything about only being able to fight 10,000.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 1


----------



## o0Fujitora0o (Jan 4, 2017)

Luffy- 100

Zolo: 80

Sanji: 69

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> It's not speculation. It's what Zoro is saying. He would expect CoC from anyone who would himself Zoro's captain.
> Just in case you missed it:
> 
> Sanji: Sovereign Haki... So he really does have the talent.
> ...



He is saying that that is the *level of strength he expects from his captain*. i.e. taking out 50 000 in one go. The Viz translation is a bit clearer than the Cnet one you are using in this instance.

He tells Sanji that they each have to fight 10 000. This indicates that 10 000 is near his limit.

Also how the hell do you not know what my false dilemma is about? It's clear Zoro is weaker than G2/3 Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 2


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 4, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> He is saying that that is the *level of strength he expects from his captain*. i.e. taking out 50 000 in one go. The Viz translation is a bit clearer than the Cnet one you are using in this instance.
> He tells Sanji that they each have to fight 10 000. This indicates that 10 000 is near his limit.
> Also how the hell do you not know what my false dilemma is about? It's clear Zoro is weaker than G2/3 Luffy.




Zoro says he would expect his captain to be a CoC user. He doesn't say anything about whether he, Zoro, would be able to beat the fodder, nor does he compare himself to Luffy.
Zoro doesn't say they have to fight 10,000. You're probably thinking of Sanji's line:
Sanji: There's ten of us, so I guess that's ten thousand each.

Reactions: Like 4 | Dislike 1


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Zoro doesn't mention level of strength. He says he would expect his captain to be a CoC user.
> Zoro doesn't say they have to fight 10,000. You're probably remembering Sanji's line:
> Sanji: There's ten of us, so I guess that's ten thousand each.



The Viz translation implies strength. Even the Cnet translation you are posting doesn't point to it being a comment about Luffy having CoC. It could mean he is commenting on the strength to knock out 50 000 in one go. Sanji is the one commenting specifically about CoC.

Yes and then Zoro says something like ''Don't worry they are not elite Navy soldiers or something''. He doesn't say something like ''I can take 50 000 no problem''.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 4, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> The Viz translation implies strength. Even the Cnet translation you are posting doesn't point to it being a comment about Luffy having CoC. It could mean he is commenting on the strength to knock out 50 000 in one go. Sanji is the one commenting specifically about CoC.
> Yes and then Zoro says something like ''Don't worry they are not elite Navy soldiers or something''. He doesn't say something like ''I can take 50 000 no problem''.



Post the VIZ translation then. In every translation I've seen, Zoro is talking about Luffy's ability to use CoC, not his strength in gear 2 or gear 3.

Not that it would matter if he were talking about strength. Saying that anyone fit to be his captain would be able to do X does not imply that Zoro cannot do X. For example, anyone fit to be Zoro's and Sanji's captain would be capable of beating Tashigi in a fight, but that does not imply that Zoro and Sanji cannot beat Tashigi. You're making a basic logical fallacy here of confusing a necessary condition with a sufficient condition.

Sanji is dividing up the 10,000 evenly among the 10 of them. He isn't implying that Luffy or Zoro or any of the others wouldn't be able to beat more than 10,000.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 1


----------



## Shanks (Jan 4, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Zoro trained for 2 years with literally the best possible teacher in the world for him so intensely that he lost a fucking eye. Luffy also trained 1.5 years with maybe the second or third best teacher for him (Garp as a brawler would probably have been a little better).
> Yes, two fights is beans compared to training for 1.5 or 2 years with top tiers.
> Mihawk is probably a small notch below Rayleigh. Didn't realize you were a Mihawk denialist.


Are you even reading to what you have wrote? Luffy have always had more intense fights. More life threatening level of attack and exponentially more tenacity and resolved than Zoro, yet Zoro had more intensed training with absolutely no base to stand on, besides he lost a fucken eye? Luffy's only took 18 months to learn everything Rayleigh needed to teach him and reach enough heights for Ray to be confident in leaving him, whereas Zoro needed the entire two years. That is how much more intense Luffy's training is. And it is because of his resolved, that he could push forward with the training. After that he spend another 6 months of training, which is still an engima on what he learned and achieved.

I've seen people going into denial before, but this level of wankery is the first.

And training isn't about getting someone who can show off his dick with a title. It's about having real people and real coaching skills who have not only gone through the experience but have seen and understand people with different experiences. Mihawk is a loner. No social skills. Zero coaching skills. He is definitely not the best trainer for Zoro. Rayleigh is the best trainer for Zoro. Then follow by Shanks.

Whether Ray or Garp is better for Luffy is debatable, but one thing is certain. Garp had his chance.

Luffy (Time Skip) - 90
Luffy (Post Dressrosa) - 95
Luffy (Current) - 100
Luffy (assume another power up come or before Wano) - 120

Zoro (Time Skip) - 80
Zoro (Before fighting his main battle in wano) - 95 and this is being generous and we need to also assume he did a shit tone of training on the ship, got tips from Law, got new swords in Wano, gone through a few high dif battles and maybe a few L's. No fucken way Post Skip Zoro can become strong enough to beat a Calamity or Shougan and he is certainly not that level now.

Law (Time skip) 85
Law (Post Dressrossa) 90

Sanji (Time Skip) - 70
Sanji (Post WCI) - 80

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Amol (Jan 4, 2017)

Luffy was is and always will be stronger than Zoro.
Anybody who puts sign of equal to between them is reading fanfiction.
OL has finally managed to warm up to Zoro after his fandom's intense wanking which has started to lessen with time. Don't ruin it for everyone guys. Don't make Zoro Itachi of One Piece .

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Post the VIZ translation then. In every translation I've seen, Zoro is talking about Luffy's ability to use CoC, not his strength in gear 2 or gear 3.
> 
> Not that it would matter if he were talking about strength. Saying that anyone fit to be his captain would be able to do X does not imply that Zoro cannot do X. For example, anyone fit to be Zoro's and Sanji's captain would be capable of beating Tashigi in a fight, but that does not imply that Zoro and Sanji cannot beat Tashigi. You're making a basic logical fallacy here of confusing a necessary condition with a sufficient condition.
> 
> Sanji is dividing up the 10,000 evenly among the 10 of them. He isn't implying that Luffy or Zoro or any of the others wouldn't be able to beat more than 10,000.





CoC is an expression of strength. The stronger you are, the more you can knock out. Oda says''Being able to knock an enemy out with haki depends entirely on having an overwhelming *power gap* between the two''. Oda also said Shanks or Rayleigh could have knocked out all 100 000.

The above translation clearly talks about the amount knocked out. Not about Luffy specifically having CoC. That is not a good argument in any event. There is literally no indication that Zoro would only serve under someone with CoC. Luffy unlocked it long after Zoro joined. He accepted him as captain without even knowing about it. So there is no fallacy here since Zoro is specifically talking in terms of power level and if Luffy wasn't stronger than him, then Zoro would take over.

Also your example doesn't even fit. We know for sure Sanji and Zoro can beat Tashigi. Luffy is using CoC. If Zoro had CoC he would knock out less, he says as much. You are equating beating a low level opponent with ''going all out'' with CoC as a basis to refute my argument. It doesn't fit, because the analogy breaks down quickly.

Like I said, then Zoro would have said he can beat much more if he could. Instead he agree that he will fight 10 000.

Also I don't know what other translations you are talking about. Not even the one you are using here supports you.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Bogard (Jan 4, 2017)

Zoro generally has high expectations for his captain, not only strength-wise(he wants a captain as strong if not stronger than him) but also in the sense of respect and the strength of Luffy's conqueror haki at that moment was simply one of those standards as a way to say that if Luffy can't have a conqueror haki that powerful, he doesn't deserve to be his captain. However in this case he is talking about the overall level of his captain, not when he is restricted. Even the strength of Luffy's conqueror displayed in fishmen island most likely takes into factor his level in G4 considering it grows depending on personal growth rate. It's even implied again in dressrosa with the legendary Chinjao who fought Luffy before thinking Zoro was too strong to be Luffy's underling after seeing him in action, of course that was before knowing g4


----------



## Freechoice (Jan 4, 2017)

Why do people still think Zoro is very close to Luffy you ask? Despite the constant Zoro/Sanji rivalry, the humongous gap in feats, zero portrayal to suggest equality to Luffy? Well the answer is pretty simple my friend.

The people who think that [here on NF at least] are notorious zoro wankers/fans/however you want to put it, and they are some of the most closed minded people I have had the fortune to meet. 

Prejudice, differing perspectives, subjective interpretation etc etc, but really it's just thinly veiled bias

Trying to change the mind of a zoro fan is like trying to convince a member of the KKK that the concept of white power is superfluous

It's pointless and you should just do what I do:

dislike the post, neg the fucker, and go about your business


I legitimately don't dislike Zoro. He's pretty cool and some of his fans here are great people like @convict @Donquixote Doflamingo @Extravlad and others, you know who you are. @Nidai Kitetsu is pretty cool too

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 4, 2017)

Josh said:


> Mihawk is a loner. No social skills. Zero coaching skills. He is definitely not the best trainer for Zoro. Rayleigh is the best trainer for Zoro. Then follow by Shanks.


This is the most ridiculous stuff I have read in this thread. Zoro aspires to be the greatest swordsman, but Mihawk is not a good trainer for him? (facepalm)




Josh said:


> Are you even reading to what you have wrote? Luffy have always had more intense fights. More life threatening level of attack and exponentially more tenacity and resolved than Zoro, yet Zoro had more intensed training with absolutely no base to stand on, besides he lost a fucken eye? Luffy's only took 18 months to learn everything Rayleigh needed to teach him and reach enough heights for Ray to be confident in leaving him, whereas Zoro needed the entire two years. That is how much more intense Luffy's training is. And it is because of his resolved, that he could push forward with the training. After that he spend another 6 months of training, which is still an engima on what he learned and achieved.


Rayleigh only taught Luffy the *basics of haki *in one and a half year.
We know nothing much about Zoro's training, but his mentor definitely had more to teach him. Mihawk could teach him about swordsmanship on top of haki training.
I am not saying that Zoro or Luffy's training was more fruitful, there is no way to say at this point, but dont try to downplay Zoro's training by saying stuff like "Luffy needed 1 and half year while Zoro needed 2 years".



barreltheif said:


> Sanji is dividing up the 10,000 evenly among the 10 of them. He isn't implying that Luffy or Zoro or any of the others wouldn't be able to beat more than 10,000.


Not really. Sanji wanted to beat 30k after Luffy finished off 50k with CoC.
Sanji: _I'm going for thirty thousand! Hear that, Marimo?!!_
Zoro: _Shut up, Mr Nosebleed._

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## God Movement (Jan 4, 2017)

Luffy is stronger than Zoro. Anyone who disagrees has a mental deficiency of some sort.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 1


----------



## Nekochako (Jan 4, 2017)

Luffy always tend to fight the strongest opponent in a arc while Zoro fights the second strongest. That's quite telling.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Kaiser (Jan 4, 2017)

Josh said:


> It would be pretty bullshit writing if Zoro =< Luffy like some people here keeps implying. And to the extend, lots of people say Zoro will defeat Jack or someone stronger, so he's already that strong. This couldn't be more wrong.
> 
> Let's have a quick look at thier growth rate, maybe starting from pre-skip Sabody Archipelo.
> 
> ...


I agree partially because Luffy already got at least 2moments that pushed him, the first one in dressrosa and the second one in the current whole cake island arc, which should suggest a stat increase in fundamentals like haki or gear control, but so far it's not really that visible. It reminds me of when Luffy got additional arcs after the crew got seperated in SA but in marineford he still had drawbacks of his gears with the gear3 turning him in chibi mode. What he most likely gained in these moments is fighting experience like you mentioned, but not drastical increase in level, which is most likely the same now. However Luffy got a year and half training with a top tier when Zoro got almost 2years training with one, so it can be used to compensate in a sense especially since Mihawk is the best in his area unlike Rayleigh for Luffy. We don't know Zoro's current limits though, so any talk about it now is virtually pointless. This topic would make more sense when we see it and it's what people in this section mostly fail to understand eventhough i admit gear4 is incredibly powerful. Luffy is basically a top tier in that state


----------



## Freechoice (Jan 4, 2017)

God Movement said:


> Luffy is stronger than Zoro. Anyone who disagrees has a mental deficiency of some sort.





Nekomamushi said:


> Luffy always tend to fight the strongest opponent in a arc while Zoro fights the second strongest. That's quite telling.



posts like these put me at ease 

thanks GM, make sure you Support Super

and thanks Nekomamushi, my old friend

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 2


----------



## Orca (Jan 4, 2017)

Sanji smokes all the time and doesn't trian shit compared to Zoro and yet he was somehow able to keep the gap constant preskip with the m3. Was that shit writing? No.

Oda doesn't give a shit about little details like Luffy having a bit more on panel fighting experience. He isn't sitting in his studio doing mathematical calculations about how much fighting experience Zoro should have to make the powerlevel makes sense.


Zoro is equal to Luffy or near equal to Luffy simply because that's part of his character or how Oda likes to write his character.

He likes to write Zoro as the underestimated badass among the SH crew whose name is obviously not as famous as Luffy and goes unnoticed but when it comes down to it he's just as much reliable as Luffy as far as fighting is concerned.


Now if someone thinks that Luffy is noticeably stronger thank zoro, that's fine by me as it is clearly subjective but I'm just disagreeing with the reasoning here.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


----------



## Geralt-Singh (Jan 4, 2017)

Luffy >= Zoro.
Zoro is currently closer to his EoS level than Luffy IMO, so he might defeat a stronger oppenent than (Dressrosa/current) Luffy's during Wano arc.


----------



## Dunno (Jan 4, 2017)

You guys are forgetting about a thing called talent. The effort and experience needed to improve a certain amount varies greatly from one person to another. It just so happens that Luffy needs to fight more and stronger opponents than Zoro in order to reach the same level.


----------



## Monstar6 (Jan 4, 2017)

Luffee said:


> Sanji smokes all the time and doesn't trian shit compared to Zoro and yet he was somehow able to keep the gap constant preskip with the m3. Was that shit writing? No.



This.

But the same people that downplay Zoro here are the same that will tell you that Sanji is still close to him or of Luffy even tho his lack of feats, his underwhelming portrayal and the fact that he didn't train by a top tier. But when it comes to "Zoro vs Sanji" it's all about portrayal, rivalry and stuff...when it comes to "Zoro vs Luffy" it's all about feats , feats, feats...


If Zoro is clearly weaker than Luffy because Luffy always fight the strongest and Zoro the second strongest. Therefore Sanji is clearly weaker than Zoro
If the gap between Luffy and Zoro was bigger at the end of the first part because he fought constantly. Therefore the gap between Zoro and Sanji was bigger at the end of the first part because Zoro was fighting the baboons constantly even tho he was still injured
If it's bad writing that Zoro will be able to beat a Calamity in Wano , it's bad writing that Sanji was able to beat Jabura in Ennies Lobby.
And after they will try to convince that they are good posters and that they are so much better than any Zoro's fans when most of the time they are worst.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


----------



## mr sean66 (Jan 4, 2017)

Luffy and zoro are pretty close. Much closer than any other captain and first mate in my opinion.

If I was to put it in numbers it would be kinda like this

Remember luffy and Zoro have no purpose on the ship except to fight.

Sanji is the cook and is much smarter than luffy and zoro

He is in my opinion kind of like the most useful member on the crew.

If sanji was able to be Zoros equal by cooking all day while zoro does hardcore training it would be very stupid. And would make zoro and luffy look very Bad.


Luffy-100

Zoro-90

Sanji-75


Luffy would high diff zoro

And zoro would mid diff sanji

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MrWano (Jan 4, 2017)

Monstar6 said:


> This.
> 
> But the same people that downplay Zoro here are the same that will tell you that Sanji is still close to him or of Luffy even tho his lack of feats, his underwhelming portrayal and the fact that he didn't train by a top tier. But when it comes to "Zoro vs Sanji" it's all about portrayal, rivalry and stuff...when it comes to "Zoro vs Luffy" it's all about feats , feats, feats...
> 
> ...



Of course anyone who doesn't worship the notion that Luffy=Zoro are downplayers. Either way it's bullshit. There are plenty of people around here who believe Luffy>Zoro, who in turn also believe Zoro>Sanji, including myself. Not that I think it's impossible that they're in fact equal.

That Luffy consistently fought and beat the by far strongest guy is part of why he deserved the benefit of the doubt. He also had the most impressive high end feats throughout almost all of part one.

The gap did grow imo. I'd argue the gap grew during Thriller Bark as well.

Kaku was quite a bit more impressive than Jabura in my eyes. If we assume that they were supposed to be nigh equal, then yes, it doesn't really make that much sense that Sanji beat Jabura with about the same difficulty as Zoro with Kaku.

Who knows what will happen with Zoro vs Shogun/Calamity? I don't even think it's set in stone that Zoro will do it himself. Even against Pica Oda built in a shitty game-changer in Orlumbus..

Lol.. There are several good and rational Zoro fans on the site. There are a good amount of irrational and loud ones as well. More so than those people you describe.


----------



## Bernkastel (Jan 4, 2017)

Zoro will be close to Luffy but right now he's not...just like Sanji will be close to Zoro but right now he's not...their respective showings show that much...but lemme grab some popcorn for the shitstorm that this thread will become


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 4, 2017)

MrWano said:


> Of course anyone who doesn't worship the notion that Luffy=Zoro are downplayers. Either way it's bullshit. There are plenty of people around here who believe Luffy>Zoro, who in turn also believe Zoro>Sanji, including myself. Not that I think it's impossible that they're in fact equal.
> That Luffy consistently fought and beat the by far strongest guy is part of why he deserved the benefit of the doubt. He also had the most impressive high end feats throughout almost all of part one.
> The gap did grow imo. I'd argue the gap grew during Thriller Bark as well.
> Kaku was quite a bit more impressive than Jabura in my eyes. If we assume that they were supposed to be nigh equal, then yes, it doesn't really make that much sense that Sanji beat Jabura with about the same difficulty as Zoro with Kaku.
> ...



I'm pretty sure the guy you're responding to mostly agrees with what you just said. It seems like you weren't responding to his post, but to some fictional Zoro fanboy who thinks that saying that Luffy >= Zoro is downplaying. Aside from a couple genuine wankers, no one thinks that. (What's actually much more common than Zoro wank is Sanji downplay.)

In this thread, I have seen basically no Zoro wanking.
In a single page, I have seen people say:
- Zoro being close to Luffy is impossible, and would be bullshit writing.
- It is a fact that Luffy = Sanji+Zoro > Sanji = Zoro, because the latest movie says so.
- Zoro needed his best attack to beat Pica, while Luffy one shotted Cracker.
- Luffy mid diffs Zoro.
- Fujitora's gravity attack caused Zoro to bleed internally, while a weaker attack left a fodder unharmed.
- Mihawk isn't a good teacher for Zoro because he lacks social skills.
- Mihawk couldn't even dream of reaching Rayleigh's heights.
- Zoro said that he's weaker than G2/G3 Luffy because he said that he would expect his captain to be a CoC user.
- "Anybody who puts sign of equal to between them is reading fanfiction."
- "Luffy is stronger than Zoro. Anyone who disagrees has a mental deficiency of some sort."

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 4, 2017)

Josh said:


> Are you even reading to what you have wrote? Luffy have always had more intense fights. More life threatening level of attack and exponentially more tenacity and resolved than Zoro, yet Zoro had more intensed training with absolutely no base to stand on, besides he lost a fucken eye? Luffy's only took 18 months to learn everything Rayleigh needed to teach him and reach enough heights for Ray to be confident in leaving him, whereas Zoro needed the entire two years. That is how much more intense Luffy's training is. And it is because of his resolved, that he could push forward with the training. After that he spend another 6 months of training, which is still an engima on what he learned and achieved.
> 
> I've seen people going into denial before, but this level of wankery is the first.
> 
> ...



Tips from Law 

Whats he going to give zoro tips on how to take a L in style

Reactions: Winner 3


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 4, 2017)

Freechoice said:


> Why do people still think Zoro is very close to Luffy you ask? Despite the constant Zoro/Sanji rivalry, the humongous gap in feats, zero portrayal to suggest equality to Luffy? Well the answer is pretty simple my friend.
> 
> The people who think that [here on NF at least] are notorious zoro wankers/fans/however you want to put it, and they are some of the most closed minded people I have had the fortune to meet.
> 
> ...


Funny thing is though.

In all the years i have been here there has always been and still is more Luffy wankers and Zoro haters then Zoro wankers.

Its just ok to dick ride luffy because he is the MC or something i dont know.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 2


----------



## Six (Jan 4, 2017)

Why the hate for Zoro? I understand the Mihawk hate ebcause he's an overrated and overwanked dick but Zoro is actually pretty cool. Or do people here wank him like they wank Faghawk?


----------



## Dunno (Jan 4, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Zoro will be close to Luffy but right now he's not...just like Sanji will be close to Zoro but right now he's not...*their respective showings show that much*...but lemme grab some popcorn for the shitstorm that this thread will become


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jan 4, 2017)

This still hasn't been refuted:

Pre skip

Zoro vs Luffy in Whiskey Peak, then Zoro's Alabasta arc growth, the databook (Oda writes those) that came out during post Enies Lobby stating Zoro and Luffy have similar battle power, Zoro's new sword in Thriller Bark to combat whatever gap there was with G3 and Ashura, Zoro's performance vs Kuma, Zoro surviving Luffy's pain while Luffy was knocked out by it.

post skip

He did way better vs Hyouzou, the PH Dragon, and Monet then G2 Luffy did, has had no major (and very little minor damage) done to him, hasn't shown his new full power and Ashura, and pushed back Fujitora several feet with his air slash which prompted Fujitora to call it "rather ornery" which means bad-tempered / difficult to deal with. Better feats vs Fujitora then Luffy had.


----------



## MYJC (Jan 4, 2017)

Luffy>Zoro>Sanji

The gap between Luffy and Zoro is bigger than the gap between Zoro and Sanji, and after Luffy's showing on Dressrosa that's not even really debatable. Neither one of them would stand a chance against G4.


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 4, 2017)

xmysticgohanx said:


> This still hasn't been refuted:
> Pre skip
> 
> Zoro vs Luffy in Whiskey Peak, then Zoro's Alabasta arc growth, the databook (Oda writes those) that came out during post Enies Lobby stating Zoro and Luffy have similar battle power, Zoro's new sword in Thriller Bark to combat whatever gap there was with G3 and Ashura, Zoro's performance vs Kuma, Zoro surviving Luffy's pain while Luffy was knocked out by it.



Even if we take what you say as if it were totaly exact (it's not. While close in strength they did not go all out in whiskey peak so hard to evaluate them. Franky and luffy went toe to toe in water 7, does that mean they were equal? Don't think so. Luffy combined gear 2 and 3 against moria, it was a power up compared to his fight with lucci).
Here is what happened afterwards to luffy while zoro was sent away by kuma:
-Beat hancok two sisters while tey were using haki
-Break out of impel down after fighting with magellan, and surviving ivankov hormones treatment. Wich enhanced his resistance to poison.
-Participated in the marineford battle (where he fought zoro's master), where he awakened fully his conqueror haki, and was designated by aka inu as one of the two ennemies to eliminate at all cost with ace. And the dude had no break almost between the two events, wich tends to show that luffy was not at his limit at thriller bark, he thought that he had finished so relaxed. I mean luffy is still going currently at whole cake island after battling an entire army and a sweet commander!
So whatever gap there was in your mind between the two according to your recap you may have to rethink it.....




xmysticgohanx said:


> This still hasn't been refuted:
> post skip
> 
> He did way better vs Hyouzou, the PH Dragon, and Monet then G2 Luffy did, has had no major (and very little minor damage) done to him, hasn't shown his new full power and Ashura, and pushed back Fujitora several feet with his air slash which prompted Fujitora to call it "rather ornery" which means bad-tempered / difficult to deal with. Better feats vs Fujitora then Luffy had.


Let's be serious here, we're not in fishman island anymore, luffy beat the shit out of craker and doflamingo, enven though he had advantages in both fights. Hyouzou is cute and all, but we're way past this point now, we're talking about yonkou commanders level fighter here.
Based on feats luffy has shown a level that is not comparable with anything zoro has displayed.
Based on hype the sword master works for his boss, for whom he sacrificed his pride kneeling before mihawk who taught him during the ellipse. 

Don't get me wrong zoro is strong, he can hold his own against luffy , push him to his limits, but let's be real he haw never, he's not and never will be stronger than his daddy. This kind of threads is rude towards luffy, nobody would dare to think that beckman, marco, rayleigh, killer or sabo are stronger than their boss. They can hold their own more or less depending on the dynamics but they are all weaker, zoro is no exception.
Luffy>zoro>sanji. He's stronger , has always been, and will always be stronger than his "commanders", generally they watch daddy go to work (arlong, doflamingo you name it).


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 4, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> This kind of threads is rude towards luffy, nobody would dare to think that beckman, marco, rayleigh, killer or sabo are stronger than their boss.


Have you read the title of this thread? _"Zoro cannot be close to Luffy", _If anything, its disrespectful towards Zoro.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## hokageyonkou (Jan 5, 2017)




----------



## Mylesime (Jan 5, 2017)

Nidai Kitetsu said:


> Have you read the title of this thread? _"Zoro cannot be close to Luffy", _If anything, its disrespectful towards Zoro.



  Every single one of us can read between the lines.
He chose this title and is being negged for it because he is being provocative,he expected some of these answers. They're close, personally i'm talking about the content of the thread. There would be close to no reply if someone asked if rayleigh is stronger than the pirate king. Since Gear 4 things have changed, luffy humbled everybody, but there was a point where against any logic people (and there was a lot) argued that zoro was stronger than his captain! That was a joke!
Zoro can hold his own against luffy, their growth are comparable, and as the wss that's not going to change at the end of the story when luffy will be pirate king.
But while the gap isn't significant , it exists. It was true at enies lobby, it will be at the end of the story: basically , what i'm saying is that while he is comparable to luffy there exists people stronger than zoro and weaker than luffy, zoro is not the closest character to luffy in the manga.Lucci was stronger than zoro at the time ....
We have to be mesured, but clear at the same time.At some point a pattern is a pattern, ener ,crocodile , lucci , doffy (?), zoro couldn't beat these guys.

For example post TS, while i'm sure that luffy is stronger than law, we can't say the same for zoro currently, it's true that he toyed with pica and that doffy beat up law, but while there is no doubt in my mind that pica would have no shot against law, i don't know how well zoro would have handled doflamingo. There is a limit to the benefit of the doubt that we can give him for handling fodders  compared to doffy or cracker since the TS.
Don't get me wrong zoro may be stronger than vergo, smoker or law, but that's far from being guaranteed, on the other hand luffy proved his superiority.
None of these characters would have struggled against zoro's opponents since the time skip. Some obstacles are harder than others, kaido met kidd's alliance.... 2 out of 4 supernovas are missing , kidd is being held captive like a b... and apoo call him senpai. Destroying hyouzou or monet isn't gonna cut it, zoro has to do something big in order to be considered particularly close to luffy, why should he be considered stronger than law or smoker? Because he beat pica? He has no feats nor hype that put him currently above a guy like law.
Smoker looks like shit because he got beat multiple times since the TS, well while he was clearly stronger than zoro pre TS being a logia, zoro has for sure closed the gap, if not overtaken him in terms of strength, but there is no clonclusive evidences. I don't know how zoro would look after a gauntlet like smoker faced at punk hazard, what i know is that he sure as hell would not come out of this situation unscathed 
(I'm not saying he isn't, i don't know).


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 5, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> At some point a pattern is a pattern, ener ,crocodile , lucci , doffy (?), zoro couldn't beat these guys.


I addressed this already


Nidai Kitetsu said:


> Its true that Luffy's opponents are always on a different level but he always needed massive help to beat his opponents. For example, Luffy beat Crocodile after 3 tries, beat Enel because of his rubber properties, beat Oz because of 100 shadows, beat Doffy because of Gamma knife, beat Cracker because of Nami's rain etc etc. In my opinion, with similar advantages, Zoro also had a great chance to beat all of Luffy's opponents except Rob Lucci. I think Zoro would have lost against Lucci. But the same can be said about Alabasta Luffy against Mr. 1, I dont see any way of Alabasta Luffy beating Mr. 1.







Mylesime said:


> it's true that he toyed with pica and that doffy beat up law, but while there is no doubt in my mind that pica would have no shot against law, i don't know how zoro would have handled doflamingo.


Thats extremely biased. Zoro fought a stronger opponent than Doflamingo twice and didnt get defeated.
Do you remember how Law performed against Doffy at the bridge? Law only managed to scratch, I repeat scratch Doflamingo. How could Zoro handle Doflamingo worse than Law?



Mylesime said:


> Don't get me wrong zoro may be stronger than vergo, smoker or law, but that's far from being guaranteed, on the other hand luffy proved his superiority.


Vergo? What is that fodder doing in this thread?


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 5, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> *Don't get me wrong zoro is strong, he can hold his own against luffy , push him to his limits, but let's be real he haw never, he's not and never will be stronger than his daddy.* This kind of threads is rude towards luffy, nobody would dare to think that beckman, marco, rayleigh, killer or sabo are stronger than their boss. They can hold their own more or less depending on the dynamics but they are all weaker, zoro is no exception.
> 
> Every single one of us can read between the lines.
> He chose this title and is being negged for it because he is being provocative,he expected some of these answers. *There would be close to no reply if someone asked if rayleigh is stronger than the pirate king.*



No one here thinks that Zoro is stronger than Luffy. And aside from maybe the nidai kitetsu guy, no one here thinks that they're equal.
The OP claimed that it's impossible for Zoro even to be *close* to Luffy, and other posters questioned the sanity of anyone who disagrees.
If you think that Zoro can "push Luffy to his limits", then you're arguing with the wrong people.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 5, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> *And aside from maybe the nidai kitetsu guy*, no one here thinks that they're equal.


WTF? What are you talking about?


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 5, 2017)

Nidai Kitetsu said:


> WTF? What are you talking about?



It seemed like you were saying Luffy = Zoro. My apologies if you weren't.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 5, 2017)

Nidai Kitetsu said:


> Thats extremely biased. Zoro fought a stronger opponent than Doflamingo twice and didnt get defeated.
> Do you remember how Law performed against Doffy at the bridge? Law only managed to scratch, I repeat scratch Doflamingo. How could Zoro handle Doflamingo worse than Law?


  Zoro did not fight fujitora, they had a skirmish, that's it. I would not even say that luffy or sabo "fought'' fujitora, any way the admiral mindset and hidden goals put everything in perspective.
When an admiral level fighter is serious, punk hazard happens. You have to look at the whole body of work before drawing conclusions. If not, carrot fought zoro, brook is holding his own against a yonkou......Caesar and monet beat luffy, in fact the scientist took out smoker, franky luffy and co all by himself what a beast.Come on.
Law is the one who landed gamma knife on doflamingo, let's not fofget that he had already use a lot of stamina to gain time, distracting fujitora and doffy. Oda makes it on purpose , he complicates stuffs.

  Same thing with vergo, caesar took out luffy and co all by himself.....
Vergo was smoker superior, head of a new world marine base, he was shown stronger than smoker who while he was holding his own, thought that law was the best option to achieve victory. He dominated sanji also.
We cannot reduce him to one exchange, he was over confident, was negligent, and has law said things had changed law was not a kid anymore, if smoker made things interesting against law, vergo could have if he had fought smartly.
That's what law does, even doffy if it was not for his powers would've been done after gamma knife, vergo is a brawler he couldn't affor a critical hit, that was his downfall.

  Like i said kidd, sanji, vergo, smoker, law these characters deficiencies are shown against strong foes, beating up fodders compared to these guys can only take you so far.
Zoro is strong, is being portrayed as a badass and it's on purpose, but that's not enough to put him above any M3 level fighters. We have to see zoro limits before assuming that he is stronger than law, or more close to luffy than law.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 2


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 5, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> Zoro did not fight fujitora, they had a skirmish, that's it. I would not even say that luffy or sabo "fought'' fujitora, any way the admiral mindset and hidden goals put everything in perspective.
> When an admiral level fighter is serious, punk hazard happens. You have to look at the whole body of work before drawing conclusions. If not, carrot fought zoro, brook is holding his own against a yonkou......Caesar and monet beat luffy, in fact the scientist took out smoker, franky luffy and co all by himself what a beast.Come on.
> Law is the one who landed gamma knife on doflamingo, let's not fofget that he had already use a lot of stamina to gain time, distracting fujitora and doffy. Oda makes it on purpose , he complicates stuffs.
> 
> ...


Nice, Zoro deserves zero credit for clashing twice against an admiral (Fuji going all out or not shouldnt be a question here, clashing against an admiral deserves a loooot of credit), but Law deserves a lot of credit for getting fodderized against Doflamingo (gamma knife was a sneak attack, that doesnt count).

Anyway, your whole reply is a ridiculous attempt to downplay everything Zoro did post-TS while glorify Law and Vergo at the same time. I am not willing to argue rn against "_Pica is a fodder, but Vergo is ridiculously strong." 
_
Zoro has always been close to Luffy, it wont change.

Reactions: Agree 5


----------



## Yuki (Jan 5, 2017)

Nidai Kitetsu said:


> Nice, Zoro deserves zero credit for clashing twice against an admiral (Fuji going all out or not shouldnt be a question here, clashing against an admiral deserves a lot of credit), but Law deserves a lot of credit for getting fodderized against Doflamingo (gamma knife was a sneak attack, that doesnt count).
> 
> Anyway, your whole reply is a ridiculous attempt to downplay everything Zoro did post-TS while glorify Law and Vergo at the same time. I am not willing to argue rn against "_Pica is a fodder, but Vergo is ridiculously strong."
> _
> Zoro has always been close to Luffy, it wont change.



Luffy in G2/3 did just as good as Zoro vs a playing around Fugi. Only difference here is Fugi actually used a named attack on Luffy. That same Luffy was getting stomped against a clone of a commander.

The only person in Dressrosa that deserves any actual credit for fighting against Fugi is Sabo, and that's because their clash happened for an extended period of time and it's implied Fugi actually got serious. Not to mention the line where he says Sabo is not called the 2nd of the Revo's for nothing. All that happened with Zoro's slash is Fugi thought he was going to stomp a fodder, and he was surprised that Zoro not only got out of the hole, but managed to get a slash of that made him put up his guard. 

But hey if you want to debate that Crackers clone can push Fugi to get fully serious and would mid dif a playing around Fugi, go ahead and try.


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 5, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> Luffy in G2/3 did just as good as Zoro vs a playing around Fugi. Only difference here is Fugi actually used a named attack on Luffy. That same Luffy was getting stomped against a clone of a commander.
> 
> The only person in Dressrosa that deserves any actual credit for fighting against Fugi is Sabo, and that's because their clash happened for an extended period of time and it's implied Fugi actually got serious. Not to mention the line where he says Sabo is not called the 2nd of the Revo's for nothing. All that happened with Zoro's slash is Fugi thought he was going to stomp a fodder, and he was surprised that Zoro not only got out of the hole, but managed to get a slash of that made him put up his guard.
> 
> But hey if you want to debate that Crackers clone can push Fugi to get fully serious and would mid dif a playing around Fugi, go ahead and try.


Ohhh, you again!!! 

It was about Zoro and Law, not about Luffy. 

Anyway, Zoro thought he could do better than Luffy against Fuji

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Yuki (Jan 5, 2017)

Nidai Kitetsu said:


> Ohhh, you again!!!
> 
> It was about Zoro and Law, not about Luffy.
> 
> Anyway, Zoro thought he could do better than Luffy against Fuji



Nice fan fiction. 

No, he just wanted another go at Fugi.

Plz, try harder.

Sometimes i wonder if people literally include lines that do not exist into the panels they post.


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 5, 2017)

Nidai Kitetsu said:


> Nice, Zoro deserves zero credit for clashing twice against an admiral (Fuji going all out or not shouldnt be a question here, clashing against an admiral deserves a lot of credit), but Law deserves a lot of credit for getting fodderized against Doflamingo (gamma knife was a sneak attack, that doesnt count).
> 
> Anyway, your whole reply is a ridiculous attempt to downplay everything Zoro did post-TS while glorify Law and Vergo at the same time. I am not willing to argue rn against "_Pica is a fodder, but Vergo is ridiculously strong."
> _
> Zoro has always been close to Luffy, it wont change.



  The only way to know zoro's worth is to see him go all out during a fight, wich requires him to face a strong opponent.
We can't just assume that we just need to scale him relatively to luffy. It may be true, we just don't know yet.
Ace clashed with ao kiji at marineford so what? 
Are we supposed to ignore that fujitora is forbidden to enter marine bases because of what he did at dressrosa? Are we supposed to ignore that fujitora wants the end of the shichibukai , wich is  to say that he wanted the downfall of doflamingo.
If fujitora really wanted it none of the members of the strawhats alliance would be alive; currently, luffy, zoro, law it doesn't matter none of them has the strength to beat an admiral. 

  You're the one being unfair, you're twisting my words.
I repeatedly stated that we need to look at their whole body of work, pica ran from zoro to such an extent that zoro asked him to stop hiding, he did not clash with any other protagonists.Luffu dodge him while lifting a bull.
Vergo fought 3 M3 level fighters in sanji, smoker and law (some of whom fought against each other as shown in the manga).
And you're the one explicitly saying that vergo is a fodder who doesn't belong in this conversation, and i'm the downplayer. Something doesn't add up, looking at smoker feats against law, vergo can't be as weak as you pretend.
Zoro has to prove that he is far superior to these characters.
That's the side effect of being unchallenged, nobody touched him, but he didn't touche anyone either (certainly not fujitora). We'll see, but as of now, zoro did nothing out of the reach of a character like smoker for example.
Smoker can't destroy hyouzou and monet? What is pica's golem going to do against smoker's logia? Smoker haki was strong enough to protect him against vergo and law, that doesn't necessarly mean that his haki is superior to pica's, it' sure as hell doesn't prove the contrary. The only feat of pica's haki is that zoro crushed it.....
We've seen smoker , law, vergo and doffy hakis interact during their fights, the conclusion is pretty clear. Pica wasn't near zoro level. Vergo proved that he had what it tkaes to fight sanji ; and smoker who himself was strong enough to battle law. So either pica is clearly below the level of this bunch of character or zoro is clearly above. There is an evident assumption to make
So yeah, zoro hasn't done enough to simply put him clearly above law, smoker or vergo . That isn't downplaying; that is not wanking. I'm waiting to see something a kin to gear 4 before such claims.


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 5, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> The only way to know zoro's worth is to see him go all out during a fight, wich requires him to face a strong opponent.
> We can't just assume that we just need to scale him relatively to luffy. I may be true, we just don't know yet.
> Ace clashed with ao kiji at marineford so what? Are we supposed to ignore that fujitora is forbidden to enter marine bases because of what he did at dressrosa? Are we supposed to ignore that fujitora wants the end of the shichibukai , wich is t to say that he wanted the downfall of doflamingo.
> If fujitora really wanted it none of the members of the strawhats alliance would be alive; currently, luffy, zoro, law it doesn't matter none of them has the strength to beat an admiral.
> ...


Law is at least a level above Smoker, Vergo or Sanji. Its not debatable tbh. 
We are talking about the new M3 {Luffy, Zoro and Law} here. New L4 {Vergo, Smoker, Pica and Sanji} has no place in this discussion.



Juvia. said:


> Nice fan fiction.
> 
> No, he just wanted another go at Fugi.
> 
> ...


Okay, I will try harder  now if you would excuse us.......we are discussing One Piece here.


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 5, 2017)

Nidai Kitetsu said:


> Law is at least a level above Smoker, Vergo or Sanji. Its not debatable tbh.
> We are talking about the new M3 {Luffy, Zoro and Law} here. New L4 {Vergo, Smoker, Pica and Sanji} has no place in this discussion.



Yeah nice fanfic.
In OP by eichiro oda smoker clashed relatively evenly with law. Law was the first to land a blow he won.
Luffy is the one beating currently yonkou commander not zoro.


----------



## Nox (Jan 5, 2017)

- The are no two SH who are equal in strength 
- Luffy is the undisputed strongest and outmatches the second best
- The role of Zoro and Luffy warrant them to be the best (Top 5) fighters not only in the crew but the age
- Usopp is not the weakest SH
- Brooke and Robin should be the true measure of power when talking about SH who can be closish. As it stands no one knows who'd beat who though I'll say Brooke has better portrayl


Oda is creating a new trio. IMO Zoro, Jinbe and Sanji will occupy it. Whereas Luffy will pull ahead of everyone. A time is coming only the likes of Rodger, Whitebeard and Blackbeard will sit at his table. Sure the classic M3 will exist since they'all b SH best but it won't be the same as before.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 5, 2017)

Bambino said:


> Oda is creating a new trio. IMO Zoro, Jinbe and Sanji will occupy it



Jinbei has a limit; knowing his profile and his journey it would be difficult for him to grow in strength. Luffy is almost certainly stronger than jinbei already. Luffy is not even yet at 3 ranked yonkou commander level (doffy or craker level). Luffy will be pirate King; his margin of progression is huge.
Zoro and sanji growth are comparable to luffy 's development not jinbei's. At the end of the story zoro and sanji will be significantly stronger than jinbei.



Nidai Kitetsu said:


> But the same can be said about Alabasta Luffy against Mr. 1, I dont see any way of Alabasta Luffy beating Mr. 1.



 I didn't see this part;  there is not a single opponent of zoro pre skip That luffy couldn't beat.
Luffy crushed metals with various methods during his fights.
Bare handed against arlong and his weapon. With a rock against kuro and his claws;  he even broke crocodile's hook. He lifted a giant golden ball;purchased and beat the shit out of enel with it.
Daz bones would have been literally crushed by luffy.


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 5, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> Yeah nice fanfic.
> In OP by eichiro oda smoker clashed relatively evenly with law. Law was the first to land a blow he won.
> Luffy is the one beating currently yonkou commander not zoro.


Lets put it this way, Smoker was weaker than somebody who Law one-shotted the moment he got his heart back. Law is on an entirely different level compared to Smoker or Vergo rn.



Mylesime said:


> Jinbei has a limit; knowing his profile and his journey it would be difficult for him to grow in strength. Luffy is almost certainly stronger than jinbei already. Luffy is not even yet at 3 ranked yonkou commander level (doffy or craker level). Luffy will be pirate King; his margin of progression is huge.
> Zoro and sanji growth are comparable to luffy 's development not jinbei's. At the end of the story zoro and sanji will be significantly stronger than jinbei.
> 
> 
> ...


Daz was stronger than normal metals. Zoro also broke Hachi's sword with onigiri before, he couldnt _scratch_ Daz with onigiri. Daz could turn any part of his body into blade, Luffy is not punching through Daz's spiral hollow. Alabasta Luffy had no chance against Mr. 1.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 5, 2017)

IMO, Luffy was always in the same level as Zoro and Sanji. It all changed with G4, which outclasses Law, Cracker's Armor, and Doflamingo. It remains to be seen, but as things stand G4 Luffy is above the characters mentioned.


----------



## Yuki (Jan 5, 2017)

Nidai Kitetsu said:


> Okay, I will try harder  now if you would excuse us.......we are discussing One Piece here.



Just because you can't debate ageist me because i own you every single time and you know you'll never beat me does not mean you have to be an out right dick. 

I'm sorry that i debate at a much higher frequency than you can even comprehend, but that's just what actual knowledgeable people do.

Reactions: Dislike 2


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 5, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> Just because you can't debate ageist me because i own you every single time and you know you'll never beat me does not mean you have to be an out right dick.
> 
> I'm sorry that i debate at a much higher frequency than you can even comprehend, but that's just what actual knowledgeable people do.


Yeah, Its hard for me to understand your posts  

As an example of your quality and informative posts, I would like to present the last thread you created. Your valuable insights about the thickness of Fairy tail girls really impressed me in that thread, 


On topic, Zoro will be always close to Luffy, deal with it.


----------



## Dunno (Jan 5, 2017)

kurisu said:


> IMO, Luffy was always in the same level as Zoro and Sanji. It all changed with G4, which outclasses Law, Cracker's Armor, and Doflamingo. It remains to be seen, but as things stand G4 Luffy is above the characters mentioned.


G4 Luffy required Nami's help to beat Cracker and Law's help to beat Doflamingo. G4 Luffy *might* be above Law, but he's far below the other two.


----------



## Yuki (Jan 5, 2017)

Nidai Kitetsu said:


> Yeah, Its hard for me to understand your posts
> 
> As an example of your quality and informative posts, I would like to present the last thread you created. Your valuable insights about the thickness of Fairy tail girls really impressed me in that thread,
> 
> ...



 You legit brought up a thread i even say in the OP that i made for a laugh.

Just how desperate are you.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 5, 2017)

Dunno said:


> G4 Luffy required Nami's help to beat Cracker and Law's help to beat Doflamingo. G4 Luffy *might* be above Law, but he's far below the other two.



I said Cracker's Armor. Not Cracker himself. And nope, G4 is decisively and objectively above Law and Doflamingo. 





Doflamingo (even with Awakening) was completely outclassed by G4. 

Now this doesn't mean Luffy > Doflamingo necessarily (I put them around on the same level with Luffy having the edge) but it sure as hell means G4 > Doflamingo.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 5, 2017)

I generally don't care that much about this topic so I like to think I'm neutral when it comes to it but in my opinion I find it staggering the number of people that try to downplay Zoro here. Yeah I get it, some of his fans can get annoying and so the natural reaction is to troll them but realistically, looking at how Oda has portrayed Zoro and their symbiotic relationship he's clearly exceptional when it comes to first mates. It's definitely closer to a Roger/Rayleigh relationship of brothership instead of a child/father relationship of a Whitebeard/Marco where the first mate is several leagues below the captain. 

There were clear hints through the manga but when really solidified it for me was Shabondy. In particular:

-  Oda deciding to incorporate him in to the Supernovas and thus the worst & most notorious pirates of that generation (one of only two FM's  afforded that title) who are destined to change the world.

- Urouge's words (let's remember that Urouge is a god who doesn't lie) about him being a beast and wondering what type of leader Luffy was to have a man like him under his command ..... which is a sign that like Rayleigh before him, Zoro could have easily become a Supernova level pirate captain by himself.

If Luffy's a 100, I peg Zoro around a 98 maybe a 99 with Sanji at the moment a lot further behind at the moment (unless he redeems himself massively in this arc). And I speak as someone who much prefers Sanji's character (even right now) to Zoro's stoic and emotionless personality.

Reactions: Like 10 | Winner 2


----------



## MrWano (Jan 5, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> I'm pretty sure the guy you're responding to mostly agrees with what you just said. It seems like you weren't responding to his post, but to some fictional Zoro fanboy who thinks that saying that Luffy >= Zoro is downplaying. Aside from a couple genuine wankers, no one thinks that. (What's actually much more common than Zoro wank is Sanji downplay.)
> 
> In this thread, I have seen basically no Zoro wanking.
> In a single page, I have seen people say:
> ...



Yes, I know it's possible. I'm trying to get a reaction from him. The point is that he is cherry picking the bad posts (posters) regarding downplaying Zoro, while ignoring the wankers. That dishonesty is annyoing. Of course _you _haven't seen any Zoro wank. 

Btw, Luffy only needing 1.5 years to learn what Rayleigh taught him is insane hype. The previous pirate king's left hand underestimated Luffy by half a year. Let that sink in before putting Zoro's 2 years over Luffy's.

Reactions: Useful 1


----------



## Monstar6 (Jan 5, 2017)

MrWano said:


> Yes, I know it's possible. I'm trying to get a reaction from him. The point is that he is cherry picking the bad posts (posters) regarding downplaying Zoro, while ignoring the wankers. That dishonesty is annyoing.



There is no dishonesty in my post. 
Zoro wankers are seen for what they are either trolls or delusional fanboys. Zoro downplayers are seen as...good posters even tho the obvious bias and lack of consistency of their arguments. 

If you were that annoyed by this kind of dishonesty it is certainly not my post that you will have quote first  but i guess there's only one type of dishonesty that annoyed you.


----------



## MrWano (Jan 5, 2017)

Monstar6 said:


> There is no dishonesty in my post.
> Zoro wankers are seen for what they are either trolls or delusional fanboys. Zoro downplayers are seen as...good posters even tho the obvious bias and lack of consistency of their arguments.
> 
> If you were that annoyed by this kind of dishonesty it is certainly not my post that you will have quote first  but i guess there's only one type of dishonesty that annoyed you.



There is. You speak in absolutes, which doesn't reflect the truth on this forum.

They are? By whom?

Both types annoy me quite a bit. Luffy and Zoro are two characters having two extreme sides each. When there's bias, it's annoying either way. That doesn't mean that people can't have controversial opinions though. It's the obvious downplay and nonsense that's the problem. 

In this case it's clear what's ignored and what's not. You're absolutely right in that there's downplay, Barrel actually quoted a few good examples. There's definitely wank i here as well though.


----------



## Muah (Jan 5, 2017)

Didnt Marc close like every thread I made on this subject. This doesnt have to be explained. Zoro would be lucky if hes not low diffed by basic G4 tatics or just outright killed by king kong gun. Though even in base Luffy would probably beat Zoro.

You have to be purely insane to think Zoro stands even a remote chances against his captain no matter how bishounen hes gotten. Luffy left Zoro innthe dust on Enis Lobby. The gap left is big enough for characters for Law to feel being completely unreasonably undoubtedly superior to Zoro while still not being a match for Luffy.

Hey dont feel bad, the same is true for Sanji. Who is the broggy to Zoros Dorry.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## hokageyonkou (Jan 5, 2017)

Luffy = Zoro > Sanji

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


----------



## Dunno (Jan 5, 2017)

kurisu said:


> I said Cracker's Armor. Not Cracker himself. And nope, G4 is decisively and objectively above Law and Doflamingo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You stated that G4 Luffy is above "the characters mentioned above", which includes Cracker. 

Doflamingo wasn't completely outclassed by G4 Luffy. He actually defeated G4 Luffy, who then needed other people to keep Doflamingo in check for ten minutes for him while he recuperated. G4 Luffy is temporarily more powerful than an injured Doflamingo, but due to the time limit, he's overall weaker, and therefore not "above" him. G4 Luffy isn't Luffy with an infinite amount of Haki and stamina (An "infinite G4 Luffy") but rather Luffy in G4 with the amount of Haki and stamina he actually has and the time limit that comes with it. Therefore, G4 Luffy isn't necessarily stronger than Law or Zoro either. Especially not Zoro who hasn't got any feat limiting his strength to anywhere close to Luffy's. If you're talking about "Infinite G4 Luffy", then that is another matter completely and hardly relevant in a discussion of One Piece.


----------



## Muah (Jan 5, 2017)

Dunno said:


> G4 Luffy required Nami's help to beat Cracker and Law's help to beat Doflamingo. G4 Luffy *might* be above Law, but he's far below the other two.



Then how come he beat those two. Your missing basic understanding from your post. Whoever wins the fight is the strongest regardless of what happened. Cracker had back up too. Its nit just a simpke battle its a war right now. Luffy went in with half his crew and beat Doflamingo and his entire crew.  Cracker cut halfway through Luffys arm very early in the fight and never managed to put Luffy down. All Nami did was provide rain. Now you might feel tempted to call a rematch but Luffy has moved on and I think you should too.


----------



## hokageyonkou (Jan 5, 2017)

Luffy would not have defeated doflamingo without law, collisseum warriors.

Luffy would not have defeated cracker without nami, homies.

Both cracker and doflamingo outlasted initial g4. without outside protection luffy is as good as dead after initial g4.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 5, 2017)

Dunno said:


> You stated that G4 Luffy is above "the characters mentioned above", which includes Cracker.



I said Cracker's *Armor*. Anyway, I've cleared it. Shouldn't be a problem now. 



> Doflamingo wasn't completely outclassed by G4 Luffy. He actually defeated G4 Luffy, who then needed other people to keep Doflamingo in check for ten minutes for him while he recuperated. G4 Luffy is temporarily more powerful than an injured Doflamingo, but due to the time limit, he's overall weaker, and therefore not "above" him. G4 Luffy isn't Luffy with an infinite amount of Haki and stamina (An "infinite G4 Luffy") but rather Luffy in G4 with the amount of Haki and stamina he actually has and the time limit that comes with it. Therefore, G4 Luffy isn't necessarily stronger than Law or Zoro either. Especially not Zoro who hasn't got any feat limiting his strength to anywhere close to Luffy's. If you're talking about "Infinite G4 Luffy", then that is another matter completely and hardly relevant in a discussion of One Piece.



Dude, I'm sorry but stop being intentionally obtuse.

Here's what I said in the former post;



> Now this doesn't mean Luffy > Doflamingo necessarily (I put them around on the same level with Luffy having the edge) but it sure as hell means G4 > Doflamingo.



I've been perfectly clear about the distinction between G4 being above said characters and* not Luffy as a whole*. 

If you're seriously not gonna acknowledge what I *clearly* said I'm not gonna bother arguing with you at all. 

And no Dofla only outlasted G4, he didn't defeat it, hell he didn't even damage it. It was a complete blitz right until Luffy lost stamina and reverted back to his base form. And it was total PIS for Luffy not to use KKG during the first time limit. Reread those links again, Dofla was 100% of the defensive and still got a massive amount of damage.


----------



## Yuki (Jan 5, 2017)

I once said a very true fact.

"Every character has wankers, if you can't see any wankers especially of a fan favorite character, and only see downplayers, then you are the wanker."

The same can be said the other way round. I my self have been called a Zoro wanker on other forums where i have defended his power level compared to people like Kyros and the middle trio. Some people legit think the mid trio can mid dif Zoro even if he goes all out while also saying only Luffy in G4 can pull of that feat.


----------



## charles101 (Jan 5, 2017)

Dunno said:


> Doflamingo wasn't completely outclassed by G4 Luffy. He actually defeated G4 Luffy



G4 Luffy is Luffy during his G4 and he couldn't do anything to G4 Luffy. He was forced to tank his attacks, because he wasn't even able to block anything. He "won" due to time limit and plot (Luffy just stopped when gear was about to end).


----------



## Shanks (Jan 5, 2017)

I'm glade most of us agree that Luffy > Law > Zoro > Sanji

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dunno (Jan 5, 2017)

charles101 said:


> G4 Luffy is Luffy during his G4 and he couldn't do anything to G4 Luffy. He was forced to tank his attacks, because he wasn't even able to block anything. He "won" due to time limit and plot (Luffy just stopped when gear was about to end).



But then "G4 Luffy" is irrelevant when discussing manga Luffy's strength. So why even bring him up? 



Muah said:


> Then how come he beat those two. Your missing basic understanding from your post. Whoever wins the fight is the strongest regardless of what happened. Cracker had back up too. Its nit just a simpke battle its a war right now. Luffy went in with half his crew and beat Doflamingo and his entire crew.  Cracker cut halfway through Luffys arm very early in the fight and never managed to put Luffy down. All Nami did was provide rain. Now you might feel tempted to call a rematch but Luffy has moved on and I think you should too.



Would you say that pre-TS Blackbeard was stronger than pre-TS Whitebeard too? 



kurisu said:


> I said Cracker's *Armor*. Anyway, I've cleared it. Shouldn't be a problem now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know what you said and I know what you meant with it, but then how is the strength of this "G4 Luffy" relevant to a discussion considering the manga version of Luffy? The one who has to beat his opponents with G4 before the time runs out or be unable to do anything for ten minutes? The problem is that you're using the logic of "G4 Luffy" being temporarily more powerful then an injured Doflamingo as evidence that Luffy (the manga version) is stronger than Law and Zoro, which totally ignores the fact that he has a time limit. When you discuss whether Luffy is stronger than anyone, however strong your version of "G4 Luffy" is is completely irrelevant. What matters is how strong G4 Luffy including the time limit is. 

In a 1v1 fight. outlasting G4 means defeating it. I know that Luffy is temporarily more powerful than injured Doflamingo while in G4, but he has to deal a larger percentage of damage to Doflamingo's health per second than he loses Haki/stamina per second, or he loses the fight. 

To sum it up: The problem with your reasoning is that you believe that Luffy having access to G4 puts him above Zoro and Law just because the power Luffy temporarily gets from it is above what Law and Zoro usually has, ignoring the fact that Luffy's G4 has a limit.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 5, 2017)

So the general consensus is that Luffy > Zoro ? Law > Sanji

That's pretty good tbh. I thought all hope was lost.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 5, 2017)

Dunno said:


> To sum it up: The problem with your reasoning is that you believe that Luffy having access to G4 puts him above Zoro and Law just because the power Luffy temporarily gets from it is above what Law and Zoro usually has, ignoring the fact that Luffy's G4 has a limit.



G4 gives him the edge. Nothing from what Zoro and Law has shown could handle 20 minutes of G4, let alone KKG. I'm not discussing the gap or diff, but Luffy wins 10/10 with G4. Both get seriously and decisively blitzed. That puts him *whether slightly or not*, above them.

*For clarity's sake I do think he is slightly above them due to G4's restrictions and that using G4 basically automatically means it's a high-extreme diff fight due to the aforementioned restrictions and side-effects.* But you seriously can't tell me, based on what we've seen so far that Luffy doesn't blitz in G4. Zoro might have something to counter it later on, same with Law. But as it stands G4 is the deciding factor that beats Doflamingo, Zoro, and Law 10/10. It's the same as being at the same level but having that one decisive ace that you win every time. 

So far, only Armorless Cracker managed to handle G4 and that's a revitalizing G4 for 11 hours.

The power scaling is so clear when it comes to G4. It's the equalizer, it's beyond Doffy but equal to Cracker. Oda can't make it clearer enough.


----------



## ajinko (Jan 5, 2017)

For those that think law and zoro on the same level

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 5, 2017)

kurisu said:


> G4 gives him the edge. Nothing from what Zoro and Law has shown could handle 20 minutes of G4, let alone KKG. I'm not discussing the gap or diff, but Luffy wins 10/10 with G4. Both get seriously and decisively blitzed. That puts him *whether slightly or not*, above them.
> 
> *For clarity's sake I do think he is slightly above them due to G4's restrictions and that using G4 basically automatically means it's a high-extreme diff fight due to the aforementioned restrictions and side-effects.* But you seriously can't tell me, based on what we've seen so far that Luffy doesn't blitz in G4. Zoro might have something to counter it later on, same with Law. But as it stands G4 is the deciding factor that beats Doflamingo, Zoro, and Law 10/10. It's the same as being at the same level but having that one decisive ace that you win every time.
> 
> ...



  I don't get it.
Luffy is the one who seems to need Gear 4 in order to match up against the full extent of doflamingo power.
I can't understand how doflamingo could be put in the same class as law , while luffy and craker should be a level above.
I mean law wanted kaido's involvement in order to kill doflamingo, he was outmatched while doflamingo didn't even use his full strength (awakening). There was PIS on both sides, gatz, rebecca and viola restrained doffy for 10 minutes.....
  Moreover even though it's true that craker is superior to doffy in some area, he was clearly shown less durable , even admitting to hate direct physical contact.
The way i see it , craker and doffy are more or less on the same level, and luffy is the one who needs gear 4  to raise at that level, which put the fight in the high diff category as you said. Awakening was shown as efficient to outlast gear 4.


----------



## hokageyonkou (Jan 5, 2017)

Cracker Attack power > Doffys Attack power. I mean he almost sliced off G4 Arm.
Crackers durability <<<<< Doffys durability. Which is kind of PIS why Cracker didn't use his godly COA on himself if he's so afraid to take a hit.

It's also PIS how nami and homies fended off Cracker for  10 minutes let alone multiple 10 minute blocks in 11 hours. Just as it was PIS how coliseum warriors fended off dofla for 10 minutes.

Was it 10 minutes? I forget.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 5, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> I don't get it.
> Luffy is the one who seems to need Gear 4 in order to match up against the full extent of doflamingo power.



Expect he doesn't just match Doflamingo in G4, he outclasses him.



Mylesime said:


> I can't understand how doflamingo could be put in the same class as law , while luffy and craker should be a level above.



I wasn't discussing Law and Doflamingo, that's an entirely other discussion. Just Luffy's superiority due to G4.



Mylesime said:


> doflamingo didn't even use his full strength (awakening). There was PIS on both sides, gatz, rebecca and viola restrained doffy for 10 minutes.....



Yes he did. And it didn't do shit:

3



Luffy "was out of time" and didn't even attempt KKG on the first time limit. If we completely remove PIS it's still Luffy's win.



Mylesime said:


> Moreover even though it's true that craker is superior to doffy in some area, he was clearly shown less durable , even admitting to hate direct physical contact.
> The way i see it , craker and doffy are more or less on the same level, and luffy is the one who needs gear 4 to raise at that level, which put the fight in the high diff category as you said. Awakening was shown as efficient to outlast gear 4.



Different fighting styles. Cracker is a glass cannon but his offensive power was able to harm G4. It's just a different allocation of stats. Cracker managed to go toe to toe with G4 Luffy for 11 hours with weakened clones and had to attack Luffy directly when his stamina was drained. Doflamingo was outclassed for the full 20 minutes. Cracker (again) managed to hurt G4.

Doflamingo was blitzed, Luffy had every chance to use KKG but didn't. He was even sure KKG would put down Doflamingo for good but didn't use it for "reasons".

Luffy had to bait a drained Cracker to actually hurt him.

Luffy was very offensive against Doffy but had to resort a hit and run strategy against Cracker.

I mean it's okay if you don't see it, but it'll be hard convincing me otherwise at this point. The difference in the two fights was obvious.


----------



## Muah (Jan 5, 2017)

Dunno said:


> But then "G4 Luffy" is irrelevant when discussing manga Luffy's strength. So why even bring him up?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pre timeskip Blackbeard might have been stronger than a 90 percent dead Whitebeard yes... I still hold on to my theory that Shurohige spared Kurohige because he could not bare to kill a son. Obviously the context is different since he was almost dead anyway but even still you only prove my point. even almost dead whitebeard easily defeated Blackbeard. Completely dominating him and had BB begging for his life. to the point where he had his entire Yonkou crew jump in to save him. Yea he died in the process but that does not define defeat.


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 5, 2017)

kurisu said:


> Expect he doesn't just match Doflamingo in G4, he outclasses him.


The same way he outclassed craker with his final move. Most of the direct hit that luffy landed on doflamingo were before the shichibukai awakening, he ragdolled him at first, but things were more balanced until their final attacks after the awakening.



kurisu said:


> I wasn't discussing Law and Doflamingo, that's an entirely other discussion. Just Luffy's superiority due to G4.


But i think that you neglect the drawbacks of luffy's gear 4, he goes all out during a limited period of time where he applies pressure on his opponent, and sure he dominated doflamingo. But overall he wasn't superior in my opinion, he had far more help wich allowed him to overcome his technique drawbacks. In fact, doffy knew that such a technique had consequences, and that luffy consumed a lot of ressources during a short time. It was a fight like the one against lucci, except that people intervened during luffy collapse. Gear 2 and 3 outclassed lucci, but overall they were pretty equal. Here gear 4 outclassed doffy, but overall he was stronger.



kurisu said:


> Luffy "was out of time" and didn't even attempt KKG on the first time limit. If we completely remove PIS it's still Luffy's win.


I was talking about the non use of awakening against law. Wich make it difficult to put law in the same category as doflamingo.
And with this line of thinking , had craker slice luffy's throat instead of his arm , he would've won. There is a reason oda made those choices. Had doffy slice law throat instead of his arm, he woud not have suffer from the gamma knife, wich would 've enhance his endurance and durability. We can rewrite the fight ad nauseam.




kurisu said:


> Different fighting styles. Cracker is a glass cannon but his offensive power was able to harm G4. It's just a different allocation of stats. Cracker managed to go toe to toe with G4 Luffy for 11 hours with weakened clones and had to attack Luffy directly when his stamina was drained. Doflamingo was outclassed for the full 20 minutes. Cracker (again) managed to hurt G4.
> 
> Doflamingo was blitzed, Luffy had every chance to use KKG but didn't. He was even sure KKG would put down Doflamingo for good but didn't use it for "reasons".
> 
> ...



You're only focusing on cracker advantages, and like i said for me cracker and doflamingo are on the same level, each one being more proficient in some areas.
With birdcage, awakening, and parasite, there is no way for luffy to hide and extend the fight that way, during 11 hours against doflamingo.
This simple fact showed some fo cracker deficiencies, he was unable to catch luffy despite the drawbacks of gear 4 for more than 11 hours. And luffy caught him once wich was enough to put him to sleep.
Doflamingo is greatly superior to cracker on some aspects. The same way cracker is clearly more powefull in term of offense.
I didn't view these fights that way, and the fact that big mom considered luffy's win as a possibility (she said that she was curious to know if luffy was just someone with a  big mouth), it suggests that craker isn't on another level compared to doffy.
But let's agree to disagree.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 5, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> The same he outclassed craker with his final move. Most of the direct hit that luffy landed on doflamingo was before the shichibukai awakening, he ragdolled him at first, but things were more balanced until their final attacks.



Not true. 

This was while using Awakening:



Also, Cracker went in after being drained for 11 hours by Luffy, Nami, and the Homies. Hardly called outclassing. 



Mylesime said:


> But i think that you neglect the drawbacks of luffy's gear 4, he goes all out during a limited period of time where he applies pressure on his opponent, and sure he dominated doflamingo. But overall he wasn't superior in my opinion, he had far more help wich allowed him to overcome his technique drawbacks. Inf fact, doffy knew that such a technique had consequences.



>sure he dominated doflamingo. But overall he wasn't superior in my opinion

Really can't help you there. 

His help came after G4 was drained. In G4, Doflamingo was helpless and he only had to endure attacks. 

Again, for the sake of clarity; I think Luffy is only very slightly above Doflamingo(almost the same level). He beats him hard-extreme diff. That's not a huge gap, but a gap nonetheless. 



Mylesime said:


> I was talking about the non use of awakening against law.
> And with this line of thinking , had craker slice luffy's throat instead of his arm , he would've won. There is a reason oda made those choices. Had doffy slice law throat instead of his arm, he woud not have suffer from the gamma knife, wich would 've enhance his endurance and durability. We can rewrite the fight ad nauseam.



Cracker actually sliced Luffy's arm because it was closest to him. G4 is fast enough that had he went for the throat Luffy would probably escape in time. 

Doffy has own set of inconsistent issues, but the fact remains that G4+KKG beats Doflamingo. There's no proof that Gamma Knife-less Dofla would survive KKG. 



Mylesime said:


> You're only focusing on cracker advantages, and like i said for me cracker and doflamingo are on the same level, each one being more proficient in some areas.
> With birdcage, awakening, and parasite, there is no way for luffy to hide and extend the fight that way, during 11 hours.
> Doflamingo is superior to cracker on some aspects.
> I didn't view these fights that way, and the fact that big mom considered luffy's win as a possibility (she said that she was curious to know if luffy was just a big mouth), it suggests that craker isn't on another level compared to doffy.
> But let's agree to disagree.



Luffy doesn't need 11 hours for Doflamingo. That's the point. He just needs the solid 20 minutes without PIS.

Being better in some aspects hardly keeps you at the same level. Preskip-Zoro is better with weapons than Jozu. Does that put him in the same level? 

Cracker being a glass canon doesn't even hinder his offensive abilities as he has the clones to cover him: 



For the record I believe under normal circumstances; Cracker mid diffs Luffy on the latter's best day. He needed a wild amount of situational elements to actually extreme diff Cracker. 

But yeah, I hate fighting losing battles. If you can't be convinced(just as I am) then let's just end it right here.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jan 5, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> Here is what happened afterwards to luffy while zoro was sent away by kuma:
> -Beat hancok two sisters while tey were using haki
> -Break out of impel down after fighting with magellan, and surviving ivankov hormones treatment. Wich enhanced his resistance to poison.
> -Participated in the marineford battle (where he fought zoro's master), where he awakened fully his conqueror haki, and was designated by aka inu as one of the two ennemies to eliminate at all cost with ace. And the dude had no break almost between the two events, wich tends to show that luffy was not at his limit at thriller bark, he thought that he had finished so relaxed. I mean luffy is still going currently at whole cake island after battling an entire army and a sweet commander!
> ...


*> Beat hancok two sisters while tey were using haki*

He lost to them. Besides, Kuma >> them, so Zoro had a better fight resume at the time

*> Break out of impel down after fighting with magellan, and surviving ivankov hormones treatment. Wich enhanced his resistance to poison.*

Magellan is the dude that can beat Ivankov, Croc, and Jinbe yet he got hurt by G3 Luffy. He's inconsistent.

*> Participated in the marineford*

I have no idea why you mentioned marineford aka plot armor Heaven? Going by feats marineford luffy would beat current Sanji and probably even Law lol.

*> luffy beat the shit out of craker and doflamingo*

Current Luffy would get soloed by either of them no question about it. Both of them will outlast G4 and proceed to obliterate Luffy.

*> Based on feats luffy has shown a level that is not comparable with anything zoro has displayed.*

G4 is the only gear where this sentence applies. My original post proves it.

*> Based on hype the sword master works for his boss, for whom he sacrificed his pride kneeling before mihawk who taught him during the ellipse. *

Zoro is willing to do anything for Luffy which includes dieing as has been shown in Thriller Bark.

*> Don't get me wrong zoro is strong, he can hold his own against luffy , push him to his limits, but let's be real he haw never, he's not and never will be stronger than his daddy.*

I agree with that and so would most if not all of the Zoro Brigade. No one is arguing for Zoro > Luffy.

*> nobody would dare to think that beckman, marco, rayleigh, killer or sabo are stronger than their boss. They can hold their own more or less depending on the dynamics but they are all weaker, zoro is no exception.*

Based on what? We know at the very least that Oda disagrees during the Thriller Bark era. If there was no evidence to the contrary I would agree with you. Thankfully there's a ton of evidence as I have shown. I even forgot to put how enthusiastic Zoro was to fight Fujitora after seeing him destroy G2/G3 Luffy (thanks @Nidai Kitetsu ). He was willing to delay everyone else from leaving.


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 5, 2017)

kurisu said:


> Not true.
> 
> This was while using Awakening:
> 
> ...



  Yeah and that was the only time he connected before running out of power while doffy was using awakening.
He wasn't pressuring doflamingo nearly as much as he was before his awakening. Doffy was ragdolled before awakening, afterwards that was way more balanced.



kurisu said:


> His help came after G4 was drained. In G4, Doflamingo was helpless and he only had to endure attacks.


Doffy had no help during that part of the fight. He outlasted gear 4 on his own, it was close luffy almost finished him but it undeniable he outlasted it.
We can talk about PIS, ad nauseam, there is no point to it. Had doflamingo used awakening by precaution instead of giving
luffy free hits, he would not have suffer as much damages. PIS on both sides.....



kurisu said:


> Doffy has own set of inconsistent issues, but the fact remains that G4+KKG beats Doflamingo. There's no proof that Gamma Knife-less Dofla would survive KKG.


There is no proof of the contrary either. We don't know, it's possible. 
I think the damages of both tehcniques are comparable, very different, but it's law finish move, with enormous internal damages. It's up to debate. I think he would've survived, if not, it's like saying that law was useless and that luffy could've done it alone, i didn't read it like that.



kurisu said:


> Luffy doesn't need 11 hours for Doflamingo. That's the point. He just needs the solid 20 minutes without PIS.
> 
> Being better in some aspects hardly keeps you at the same level. Preskip-Zoro is better with weapons than Jozu. Does that put him in the same level?
> 
> ...


I think that he needed comparable situational elements to beat both of them. Law on one side, bellamy and trebol on the other, switch luffy and doffy, the outcome would be brutal.
For me, doffy's skills would force luffy to beat him in 20 minutes, luffy could not and would be killed after running out of power. There were PIS on both sides for me, doffy should have use awakening way sooner, particularly knowing the damages that law inflicted upon him.
I did not rate cracker offensive abilities that high, he is clearly above doffy in this departement but with the exception of the one free slash that he landed using the element of suprise, he did not injured luffy seriously.
He had to get out of his biscuit soldier which doesn't happen often according to him (his official bounty poster doesn't even has his name on it). Doffy and craker would beat luffy mid-high/High-low diff under normal circumstances, with a slight advantages in term of difficulty for craker. I did not see a character out of doflamingo league.
Let's agree to disagree.


----------



## Nox (Jan 5, 2017)

@Admiral Kizaru You're post was going well until that numeric measure of Luffy (100) and Zoro (98/99). Neither the likes of Capone, Bonney or better yet Killer haven't demonstrated themselves to be as high strictly speaking in relation to Luffy but they landed a Supernova spot. Zoro is not neck and neck with Luffy in overall terms. 

However, he is close enough (I'd say 9 points removed) and added with his proximity to Luffy's madness (as with Killer to Kidd) he'd get a nod. As it stands Luffy is ahead by a margin which small as it may be makes a significant boost its noticeable. The relationship of brotherhood doesnt mean Zoro and Luffy have to become twins. 

@Mylesime Sure, the combination of Zoro - Jinbe - Sanji may adjust to incooperate future development of the OG M3. This will see Winbe slide down the rank. However at the end of it all none of the other crew members barring the recruitment of some savage down the line will be surpassing these three.

At the same time Luffy will be at a level where his compatriots will be the likes of Blackbeard. At the very least he will be superior to Old Wb who he aimed to ursup & heading into God Tier territory. Let me ask you how many characters in the manga do you think can be comparable to a fully fleshed out end game Yonko BB with two DFs. It sure isn't (prime) Rayleigh or Old WB which is where I see Zoro cap off. 

Luffy (100) > Law (95) > Zoro (91) > Sanji (81)


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Jan 5, 2017)

I do believe this is a Luffy wank thread; however, I have no evidence since I haven't read this whole thread. Either way Luffy is above Zoro when he is in G4.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 5, 2017)

Bambino said:


> At the same time Luffy will be at a level where his compatriots will be the likes of Blackbeard. At the very least he will be superior to Old Wb who he aimed to ursup & heading into God Tier territory. Let me ask you how many characters in the manga do you think can be comparable to a fully fleshed out end game Yonko BB with two DFs. It sure isn't (prime) Rayleigh or Old WB which is where I see Zoro cap off.
> 
> Luffy (100) > Law (95) > Zoro (91) > Sanji (81)


  If i had to grade them at the end of the story it would be something like that if i include other characters:
Luffy:A+ with prime roger, prime WB, eos BB, eos aka in, prime garp
Zoro:A with mihawk, kizaru, the yonkou, eos shiliew, prime rayleigh
Sanji:A- with eos smoker, fujitora, eos laffite, marco, yonkou first mates
There will all be top tiers, none of them will never rely on the others to beat a personal foe, they will be comparable but the differences will be clear, zoro is not the closest  character to luffy like i said and he will not be at the end of the story.OP is a vast and rich universe there are a lot of formidable characters.
diminished sanji who will have soon a power up:
Luffy (100)>law(93)>Zoro(92)>sanji(82)


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 5, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> Yeah and that was the only time he connected before running out of power while doffy was using awakening.
> He wasn't pressuring doflamingo nearly as much as he was before his awakening. Doffy was ragdolled before awakening, afterwards that was way more balanced.
> 
> Doffy had no help during that part of the fight. He outlasted gear 4 on his own, it was close luffy almost finished him but it undeniable he outlasted it.
> ...



But that's what it comes down to. Luffy screaming for time yet not ending it when he could is a contradiction. If you remove PIS from both sides, Luffy uses KKG either way and still wins. 



Mylesime said:


> There is no proof of the contrary either. We don't know, it's possible.
> I think the damages of both tehcniques are comparable, very different, but it's law finish move, with enormous internal damages. It's up to debate. I think he would've survived, if not, it's like saying that law was useless and that luffy could've done it alone, i didn't read it like that.



No he wouldn't. 





Cracker didn't even survive an attack with more or less the same force.



These are Luffy's "One-hit KO's". If you don't want to believe it, it's on you tbh. 



Mylesime said:


> I think that he needed comparable situational elements to beat both of them. Law on one side, bellamy and trebol on the other, switch luffy and doffy, the outcome would be brutal.
> For me, doffy's skills would force luffy to beat him in 20 minutes, luffy could not and would be killed after running out of power. There were PIS on both sides for me, doffy should have use awakening way sooner, particularly knowing the damages that law inflicted upon him.
> I did not rate cracker offensive abilities that high, he is clearly above doffy in this departement but with the exception of the one free slash that he landed using the element of suprise, he did not injured luffy seriously.
> He had to get out of his biscuit soldier which doesn't happen often according to him (his official bounty poster doesn't even has his name on it). Doffy and craker would beat luffy mid-high/High-low diff under normal circumstances, with a slight advantages in term of difficulty for craker. I did not see a character out of doflamingo league.
> Let's agree to disagree.



Except for the fact that there was no PIS to help Cracker out, but sure... let's compare the two situations. Luffy did everything he should have done to begin with against Cracker(unlike Doflamingo). He immediately went G4, he used his time smartly, and even played on the defensive to make sure Cracker's done for. Literally every unpredictable element(Nami's rain, Luffy's appetite, Big Mom's Vivre Card, and the Homies) in that fight was against Cracker yet you compare the two situations?

Ok... Fine then. 

To me it is absolutely undeniable that Cracker is a level above Doflamingo. If you disagree, you disagree I guess.


----------



## hokageyonkou (Jan 5, 2017)

The problem with cracker was that he was made glass cannon for plot purposes. Imagine , a yonkou commander a glass cannon.


----------



## zoro (Jan 5, 2017)

We don't know whether he's a glass cannon or not. He was one-shot, that's true, but by a beast of an attack. And his defense-oriented Devil Fruit makes it irrelevant anyway, he's good enough to avoid being hit by Luffy for eleven hours


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 6, 2017)

kurisu said:


> But that's what it comes down to. Luffy screaming for time yet not ending it when he could is a contradiction. If you remove PIS from both sides, Luffy uses KKG either way and still wins.


If luffy landed a KkG instead of his intial KG the fight would be over the same way against cracker

if zoro had landed ashura asap gainst kaku the fight would've not lasted, the same with sanji and jyabura, zoro shishi sonson against daz bones, that's not how it works as we all know. You're being unfair.
*You're basically saying that luffy can OS doflamingo* *while we all know how these fights work.*



kurisu said:


> Cracker didn't even survive an attack with more or less the same force.


Those two techniques are not of the  same magnitude.
King kong punch is described as luffy ultimate move that rayleigh specially taught him. He combined gear 3 and 4.
There is no way that cracker can tank a direct KKG hit if it connects, armor or not. IF luffy landed a KG instead of his intial gear4 move following your logic that was it. 

You don't aknowledge cracker deficiencies, cracker stated himself that : "it just so happens that i absolutely despise pain....hell i can't even stand the prick of a shot"




Doflamingo stood up after a gama knife, be it thanks to his devil fruit, cracker can't survive that hit once landed.
Doflamingo's durability, and pain tolerance, are better than cracker's.



kurisu said:


> Except for the fact that there was no PIS to help Cracker out, but sure...


You understimate doflmingo disadvantages. You want to talk about PIS he confronted luffy finishing move head on while perfectly knowing that luffy had barely any haki left, the same character who was avoiding gear 3 moves and telling to trebol to be careful and  avoid law's room. *Doflamingo didn't see nor sense law teleporting and thought that he had killed him , before receiving the gama knife.....*
There is no end to this kind of argument, oda made these choices, for the same dumb reason that cracker threw himself at luffy who then finished him.
Then you can't deny that luffy's help against doflamingo, particularly after he was the only member of the donquixote family standing is way beyond any help that he had against craker, no disrespect to nami (law teleported luffy with viola before she was killed, cavendish and robin saved law before that when doflamingo wanted to finish him)
The birdcage was delayed because of external interventions until the last second of the fight



kurisu said:


> He immediately went G4, he used his time smartly, and even played on the defensive to make sure Cracker's done for. Literally every unpredictable element(Nami's rain, Luffy's appetite, Big Mom's Vivre Card, and the Homies) in that fight was against Cracker yet you compare the two situations?


Craker fought more smartly than doflamingo against luffy, his single attack that he landed was because of his ruse when he fooled luffy with his armor. Doflamingo was kicking boundman and discovering the nature of the gear....

  What i'm saying is you're failing to aknowledge craker's deficiencies, yes his defense is better than doflamingo's, his offensive firepower is better. But he's way less versatile , durable and mobile, the tactic that luffy used against cracker can't work against doflamingo, because nami and the homies (with parasite, birdcage and awakening) aren't enough to stale doflamingo. Your KKG argument doesn't work, if luffy land that hit on almost anyone, it's game over except the absolute beast of the opverse (yonkou, admiral). And we've seen luffy destroy craker's armor while he was inside, so he's no exception......


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 6, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> diminished sanji who will have soon a power up:
> Luffy (100)>law(93)>Zoro(92)>sanji(82)


Yeah, Sanji shows his stuff, goes to 90. But what happens when Zoro shows his stuff afterwards? It goes back to Luffy-100, Zoro-99.



Bambino said:


> You're post was going well until that numeric measure of Luffy (100) and Zoro (98/99). Neither the likes of Capone, Bonney or better yet Killer haven't demonstrated themselves to be as high strictly speaking in relation to Luffy but they landed a Supernova spot. Zoro is not neck and neck with Luffy in overall terms.
> 
> However, he is close enough (I'd say 9 points removed) and added with his proximity to Luffy's madness (as with Killer to Kidd) he'd get a nod. As it stands Luffy is ahead by a margin which small as it may be makes a significant boost its noticeable. The relationship of brotherhood doesnt mean Zoro and Luffy have to become twins.


Neither did Kidd, but he also landed a supernova spot and I am sure you wont argue against him being neck to neck to Luffy.
I dont understand, why Kidd-Killer's strength gap should provide you an indication about Luffy-Zoro's strength gap? Luffy and Zoro has more important and direct parallels throughout the series, Roger-Rayleigh, Shanks-Mihawk, Blackbeard-Shiryuu. Kidd and Killer might not be the rival of the strawhats that we were once hoping for.


----------



## Dunno (Jan 6, 2017)

kurisu said:


> G4 gives him the edge. Nothing from what Zoro and Law has shown could handle 20 minutes of G4, let alone KKG. I'm not discussing the gap or diff, but Luffy wins 10/10 with G4. Both get seriously and decisively blitzed. That puts him *whether slightly or not*, above them.
> 
> *For clarity's sake I do think he is slightly above them due to G4's restrictions and that using G4 basically automatically means it's a high-extreme diff fight due to the aforementioned restrictions and side-effects.* But you seriously can't tell me, based on what we've seen so far that Luffy doesn't blitz in G4. Zoro might have something to counter it later on, same with Law. But as it stands G4 is the deciding factor that beats Doflamingo, Zoro, and Law 10/10. It's the same as being at the same level but having that one decisive ace that you win every time.
> 
> ...



That I can accept. Except for the fact that Zoro hasn't shown anything that would make him unable to handle 20 minutes of G4 either. Feats go both ways, Zoro doesn't need to show that he can outlast G4 more than Luffy needs to show that he can put Zoro down within G4. The difference in durability and endurance between a severely injured Doflamingo and Zoro is unclear, mostly since Zoro hasn't taken much damage since the TS. 



Muah said:


> Pre timeskip Blackbeard might have been stronger than a 90 percent dead Whitebeard yes... I still hold on to my theory that Shurohige spared Kurohige because he could not bare to kill a son. Obviously the context is different since he was almost dead anyway but even still you only prove my point. even almost dead whitebeard easily defeated Blackbeard. Completely dominating him and had BB begging for his life. to the point where he had his entire Yonkou crew jump in to save him. Yea he died in the process but that does not define defeat.



So then you agree that Luffy is stronger than a severely injured Doflamingo who let him recuperate for ten minutes, and not stronger than Doflamingo?


----------



## Muah (Jan 6, 2017)

Dunno said:


> That I can accept. Except for the fact that Zoro hasn't shown anything that would make him unable to handle 20 minutes of G4 either. Feats go both ways, Zoro doesn't need to show that he can outlast G4 more than Luffy needs to show that he can put Zoro down within G4. The difference in durability and endurance between a severely injured Doflamingo and Zoro is unclear, mostly since Zoro hasn't taken much damage since the TS.
> 
> 
> 
> So then you agree that Luffy is stronger than a severely injured Doflamingo who let him recuperate for ten minutes, and not stronger than Doflamingo?



I agree king kong gun can destroy any hope of dofla wanting ro beat G4.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 6, 2017)

Dunno said:


> That I can accept. Except for the fact that Zoro hasn't shown anything that would make him unable to handle 20 minutes of G4 either. Feats go both ways, Zoro doesn't need to show that he can outlast G4 more than Luffy needs to show that he can put Zoro down within G4. The difference in durability and endurance between a severely injured Doflamingo and Zoro is unclear, mostly since Zoro hasn't taken much damage since the TS.



Zoro (like Sanji in all honesty) is the one lacking feats. As it stands he's not surviving G4, he's the one who needs to prove he can survive it.


----------



## Dunno (Jan 6, 2017)

Muah said:


> I agree king kong gun can destroy any hope of dofla wanting ro beat G4.






kurisu said:


> Zoro (like Sanji in all honesty) is the one lacking feats. As it stands he's not surviving G4, he's the one who needs to prove he can survive it.


But the thing with Zoro lacking feats is that the lack of feats makes it impossible to judge how well he can defend against G4 and how much damage he can soak. Until he gets the feats, it's unknown whether or not he can outlast G4. You can't give Luffy the benefit of the doubt just because he has feats, otherwise you would have to to give it to him against opponents like Dragon, Kaido and Kong as well, seeing as they also lack feats showcasing that they can withstand G4. Note that this is only regarding feats, you can argue that their portrayal gives them the edge, but you can't say that Luffy's feats are better that theirs only because Luffy has shown more.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 6, 2017)

Mylesime said:


> If luffy landed a KkG instead of his intial KG the fight would be over the same way against cracker
> 
> if zoro had landed ashura asap gainst kaku the fight would've not lasted, the same with sanji and jyabura, zoro shishi sonson against daz bones, that's not how it works as we all know. You're being unfair.
> *You're basically saying that luffy can OS doflamingo* *while we all know how these fights work.*



I'm really not in the mood to keep explaining how Cracker's base stats and clone feints allows him to avoid such catastrophic damage.



Look at the page above, Cracker was so close to Luffy the latter couldn't have prepped KKG. And the Armor would just break allowing Cracker to escape like he did a regular KG. If anything that'd be a neg diff for Cracker.



Mylesime said:


> Those two techniques are not of the same magnitude.
> King kong punch is described as luffy ultimate move that rayleigh specially taught him. He combined gear 3 and 4.
> There is no way that cracker can tank a direct KKG hit if it connects, armor or not. IF luffy landed a KG instead of his intial gear4 move following your logic that was it.
> 
> ...



You know that's besides the point right? I never said Cracker can tank KKG.

And I did acknowledge Cracker's deficiencies by saying he's a glass cannon. Where were you when I said that?

But back to my point... The difference between is Doflamingo was pressured until Luffy hit the KO, while Luffy had to play defensively with a shit ton of PIS to last 11 hours to drain Cracker's stamina and bait him in. But this all falls on deaf ears I guess.



Mylesime said:


> Doflamingo stood up after a gama knife, be it thanks to his devil fruit, cracker can't survive that hit once landed.
> Doflamingo's durability, and pain tolerance, are better than cracker's.



Who cares? Cracker outclasses him in literally everything else. I refer you to the swordsmanship point I made earlier.



Mylesime said:


> You understimate doflmingo disadvantages.



And you underestimate Doflamingo's advantages chalking it off to ad nauseam.



Mylesime said:


> There is no end to this kind of argument, oda made these choices, for the same dumb reason that cracker threw himself at luffy who then finished him.



Nope. Luffy's strategy was to drain Cracker and it worked. Cracker would have lost either way because Luffy kept on rejuvenating (again to a ton of PIS), so it was a last grasp kind of thing for Cracker.






Mylesime said:


> Craker fought more smartly than doflamingo against luffy, his single attack that he landed was because of his ruse when he fooled luffy with his armor. Doflamingo was kicking boundman and discovering the nature of the gear....
> 
> What i'm saying is you're failing to aknowledge craker's deficiencies, yes his defense is better than doflamingo's, his offensive firepower is better. But he's way less versatile , durable and mobile, the tactic that luffy used against cracker can't work against doflamingo, because nami and the homies (with parasite, birdcage and awakening) aren't enough to stale doflamingo. Your KKG argument doesn't work, if luffy land that hit on almost anyone, it's game over except the absolute beast of the opverse (yonkou, admiral). And we've seen luffy destroy craker's armor while he was inside, so he's no exception......



I have no idea what you're arguing about anymore in all honesty.

And really, Cracker is faster than Doflamingo since he managed to evenly fight with G4(on and off) for 11 hours something Dofla barely managed to survive for 20 minutes. And less versatile? The guy that can spawn an army of G2/G3 clones?

I am honestly tired of repeating myself and hearing the same tired arguments. You can't convince me. Let it die.



Dunno said:


> But the thing with Zoro lacking feats is that the lack of feats makes it impossible to judge how well he can defend against G4 and how much damage he can soak. Until he gets the feats, it's unknown whether or not he can outlast G4. You can't give Luffy the benefit of the doubt just because he has feats, otherwise you would have to to give it to him against opponents like Dragon, Kaido and Kong as well, seeing as they also lack feats showcasing that they can withstand G4. Note that this is only regarding feats, you can argue that their portrayal gives them the edge, but you can't say that Luffy's feats are better that theirs only because Luffy has shown more.



You can't give Zoro the benefit of the doubt by making up shit. This is battledome logic 101.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 6, 2017)

kurisu said:


> *You can't give Zoro the benefit of the doubt by making up shit.* This is battledome logic 101.



I got a really good solution to end the shitstorm concerning Zoro in the battledome. 

Just ban him from battledome threads since most people discredit his beastly endurance feats pre skip and can't properly (don't want to properly scale them for him post ts, which should have roughly a 10x increase indicated for now), till he gets his post ts feats you all wait for over 200 chapters and still gonna wait for probably 200 chapers.

It will spare everyone of you lifetime for something better.

Set him on the list like Kaido, Big Mom, Roger et cetera.


----------



## Yuki (Jan 6, 2017)

TheWiggian said:


> I got a really good solution to end the shitstorm concerning Zoro in the battledome.
> 
> Just ban him from battledome threads since most people discredit his beastly endurance feats pre skip and can't properly (don't want to properly scale them for him post ts, which should have roughly a 10x increase indicated for now), till he gets his post ts feats you all wait for over 200 chapters and still gonna wait for probably 200 chapers.
> 
> ...



Lmao

The difference between Zoro and those said individuals is that Zoro has actually gotten feats post time skip, a nice load in fact. The problem is all you Zorotards go far beyond his shown feats and think he has only used like 10% of his overall power so far and scale him off of that, which is straight up BS. Zoro has shown good feats and those feats just don't match up to Luffy's in G4, as such we can say that... he does not stand a chance against Luffy while in G4.

Yes, it is true that Luffy was in a Zoro like predicament back when he had not shown G4. However, back then i doubt anyone doubted that Zoro was on par with Luffy because his feats as many have pointed out, did in fact surpass Luffy's shown feats while not in G4. Only down players would believe that Luffy before G4 was a nice bit stronger than Zoro.

The difference between Luffy and Zoro however is that... well... Luffy has gears in the damn first place which i am pretty sure we all assumed he would get more gears later on in time.

Meanwhile Zoro does not have anything like the gears in his arsenal nor is he going to have them.

Zoro is not a DF eater, his base is his best fighting form. Just like Garp, Roger, Mihawk ect ect.

Zoro has shown his strength, which if far below Luffy's in G4. Zoro has shown his speed, which is far below Luffy's in G4. Zoro has shown his DC, which is actually pretty close to Luffy's. No doubt that is because his offence is in fact close to Luffy's, which i assume most here would agree. However, one needs more than just attack power to keep up with someone that has it all. Attack, speed, durability, (Zoro has endurance not durability. Fucker gets hurt all the time.) Ect ect.

If Luffy and Zoro were in a fight trading blows negating speed and some other things. No doubt it would be close.

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Optimistic 1


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 6, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> Lmao
> 
> The difference between Zoro and those said individuals is that Zoro has actually gotten feats post time skip, a nice load in fact. The problem is all you Zorotards go far beyond his shown feats and think he has only used like 10% of his overall power so far and scale him off of that, which is straight up BS. Zoro has shown good feats and those feats just don't match up to Luffy's in G4, as such we can say that... he does not stand a chance against Luffy while in G4.
> 
> ...



The only thing i scaled here is Zoro's endurance and hints at the growth in his stats that some here simply don't want to accept.
But since everyone wants these endurance feats from him i recommend to ban him from battledome threads till he gets them. It always gonna stay the same, it ends in a shitstorm and you don't add anything except oil into this fire with your flaming about Zoro fanboys.

If you compare 100% Luffy to whatever % Zoro and state the fight outcome as a stomp it's not a fact since we haven't seen full power Zoro yet. It might be a stomp who knows, it might be something else.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Yuki (Jan 6, 2017)

TheWiggian said:


> The only thing i scaled here is Zoro's endurance and hints at the growth in his stats that some here simply don't want to accept.
> But since everyone wants these endurance feats from him i recommend to ban him from battledome threads till he gets them. It always gonna stay the same, it ends in a shitstorm and you don't add anything except oil into this fire with your flaming about Zoro fanboys.
> 
> If you compare 100% Luffy to whatever % Zoro and state the fight outcome as a stomp it's not a fact since we haven't seen full power Zoro yet. It might be a stomp who knows, it might be something else.



No one doubts that Zoro is a monster in endurance for his own level, people just don't put his endurance far beyond that on par with someone like DD who so far only gets outclassed by fking WB in that area when it comes to feats.

Yet, no one doubts that the admirals and other tops tiers have better endurance than DD even without feats. Because level aka tiers even though some don't like to admit they exist, do matter in the long run.

DD is an endurance monster for his own level just like Zoro is of his, but DD is in fact a level beyond Zoro. Like it or not. Until shown otherwise.

As for my flaming of Zorotards. I'm not flaming, i'm simply saying the truth the way i see it.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Dunno (Jan 6, 2017)

kurisu said:


> You can't give Zoro the benefit of the doubt by making up shit. This is battledome logic 101.



It's not about giving any character the benefit of the doubt, it's about not doing it. When judging the feats of two characters, both characters have to have enough feats to judge. In order to compare G4 Luffy's offensive capabilities to Zoro's defensive ones, we need to see what Zoro's defensive ones actually are. If we have no upper limit to Zoro's endurance, then his defensive feats can't be below anyone else's offensive feats. Now we do have some upper limits, for example we know that he can't be ambushed by an Admiral and brush it off without taking some damage and we know that he can't cut Pica from however far away he was when he stated that he was too far away to cut Pica, but those feats don't really put him below the level needed to endure a G4 duration. 

Expressing it in numbers gives us something like this:  
Suppose that we know that A is 100 and we know that B is above 50 and below 150. Is A greater than B? 

The answer to this question is obviously neither "Yes, until we get information about B" nor "No, until we get more information about B" but rather "Maybe, we don't know until we get more information about B".


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 6, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> No one doubts that Zoro is a monster in endurance for his own level, people just don't put his endurance far beyond that on par with someone like DD who so far only gets outclassed by fking WB in that area when it comes to feats.
> 
> Yet, no one doubts that the admirals and other tops tiers have better endurance than DD even without feats. Because level aka tiers even though some don't like to admit they exist, do matter in the long run.
> 
> ...



 

After the ass kicking he got from luffy i doubt it


----------



## MrWano (Jan 6, 2017)

If we look at offensive and defensive feats from, let's say fighters in the M3 category, we have actually few fighters who have shown everything (or close to it).

We have seen both complete offense and defense from Luffy and Law, but that's really it I think. And even those two's best offensive hasn't hit a wall yet. Maybe Smoker and Vergo.

Sanji, Jinbe, most of the SN, Zoro and the Dukes (off-panel) have all not shown what they really can.

DD didn't have the durability to just take the G4 hits, but he could endure quite a few of them. And that after taking significant damage beforehand. It was very impressive.


----------



## hokageyonkou (Jan 6, 2017)

We haven't seen Zoro pushed to his limits though. We have seen luffy pushed to his limits. Sanjis performance against Vergo and dofla show where he stands. 
Post ts have been a breeze for Zoro bar fujitora. I go back to fishman island where luffy called hyuzou strong cause he blocked gear 2 move. The same hyuzou who was roided white like hody who could not even kill zoros boredom.


----------



## Yuki (Jan 6, 2017)

hokageyonkou said:


> We haven't seen Zoro pushed to his limits though. We have seen luffy pushed to his limits. Sanjis performance against Vergo and dofla show where he stands.
> Post ts have been a breeze for Zoro bar fujitora. I go back to fishman island where luffy called hyuzou strong cause he blocked gear 2 move. The same hyuzou who was roided white like hody who could not even kill zoros boredom.



Hyuzou blocked shit, he got hit right in the face from long range by a hit meant for not just him but two other fodder and merely survived. Last i checked he survived moves from Zoro as well meant purely for him. 

Hody was fodder for Luffy while roided just like Hyuzou was for Zoro.

He needed to take even more pills, another transformation, to go into the sea increasing his strength much further while decreasing Luffy's via being a DF eater just to put up a fight vs G2 Luffy.


----------



## MrWano (Jan 6, 2017)

hokageyonkou said:


> We haven't seen Zoro pushed to his limits though. We have seen luffy pushed to his limits. Sanjis performance against Vergo and dofla show where he stands.
> Post ts have been a breeze for Zoro bar fujitora. I go back to fishman island where luffy called hyuzou strong cause he blocked gear 2 move. The same hyuzou who was roided white like hody who could not even kill zoros boredom.



We haven't seen Sanji's top move(s), nor his endurance limit. We know how he stands compared to Doffy, though he didn't get to show really anything in that slaughter. So saying that we know where Sanji stands is quite misleading.  

Well, Pica was troublesome for him, even if Zoro was a lot stronger overrall.  Otherwise only minor issues. The thing with Zoro is not necessarily that he misses a ton of feats more than other characters. It's that his portrayal is so good.

Remember Hody blocking the flying slash with a fodder? That scene is about as relevant as Hyouzou blocking the G2 pistol.


----------



## hokageyonkou (Jan 6, 2017)

But nontheless luffy praised base hyuzou as strong, while roided white hyuzou got one shot by Zoro.

Hody was still writhing from pain from zoros slash even after taking mad steroids and becoming white.

Sanji broke his leg fighting Vergo. That's like Zoro breaking his swords. Dofla no differ sanji and had to be rescued by law. I put sanji around smoker level or maybe slightly below smoker.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MrWano (Jan 6, 2017)

hokageyonkou said:


> But nontheless luffy praised base hyuzou as strong, while roided white hyuzou got one shot by Zoro.
> 
> Hody was still writhing from pain from zoros slash even after taking mad steroids and becoming white.
> 
> Sanji broke his leg fighting Vergo. That's like Zoro breaking his swords. Dofla no differ sanji and had to be rescued by law. I put sanji around smoker level or maybe slightly below smoker.



I think he said "he must be strong". We're allowed to use critical thinking. Hyouzou wasn't strong and Luffy was wrong (more like another terrible example of false hype by Oda). Yes, compare a basic jet pistol to a onigiri, sure. Not that Zoro isn't more lethal either way, that I'll never argue.

What?

Sanji simply lifted his leg against a CoA master. He behaved like a fool. He sensed a powerful aura, yet didn't properly defend once engaged. It shows stupidity, but not his limit in an area other than general hardness.  

Doffy is Doffy. Sanji was "lucky" enough to get trapped by Parasite. You know, the same attack Jozu was trapped by.
It's possible that Sanji is around Smoker. We'll see.


----------



## hokageyonkou (Jan 6, 2017)

At the end of the day I don't really care so much about power levels. I don't think oda does so much either. Its a good debate discussion topic though. 
You can believe luffy > law> Zoro> sanji. But know that that's not what Zoro fans like me really care about.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MrWano (Jan 6, 2017)

That's okay.

When did I say that I believe that? Then you're quite the outlier. Which is hardly a bad thing.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Jan 6, 2017)

Zoron is closer in strength to Sanji than he is Luffy, Law as well

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Dunno (Jan 6, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Zoron is closer in strength to Sanji than he is Luffy, Law as well


Now I like Sanji and all, but I still don't think he's stronger than Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Chrollo Lucilfer (Jan 6, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Tips from Law
> 
> Whats he going to give zoro tips on how to take a L in style






Admiral Kizaru said:


> I generally don't care that much about this topic so I like to think I'm neutral when it comes to it but in my opinion I find it staggering the number of people that try to downplay Zoro here. Yeah I get it, some of his fans can get annoying and so the natural reaction is to troll them but realistically, looking at how Oda has portrayed Zoro and their symbiotic relationship he's clearly exceptional when it comes to first mates. It's definitely closer to a Roger/Rayleigh relationship of brothership instead of a child/father relationship of a Whitebeard/Marco where the first mate is several leagues below the captain.
> 
> There were clear hints through the manga but when really solidified it for me was Shabondy. In particular:
> 
> ...


AK

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Jan 6, 2017)

Dunno said:


> Now I like Sanji and all, but I still don't think he's stronger than Luffy.


Luffy > Law > Zoro >= Sanji

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 6, 2017)

Dunno said:


> It's not about giving any character the benefit of the doubt, it's about not doing it. When judging the feats of two characters, both characters have to have enough feats to judge. In order to compare G4 Luffy's offensive capabilities to Zoro's defensive ones, we need to see what Zoro's defensive ones actually are. If we have no upper limit to Zoro's endurance, then his defensive feats can't be below anyone else's offensive feats. Now we do have some upper limits, for example we know that he can't be ambushed by an Admiral and brush it off without taking some damage and we know that he can't cut Pica from however far away he was when he stated that he was too far away to cut Pica, but those feats don't really put him below the level needed to endure a G4 duration.
> 
> Expressing it in numbers gives us something like this:
> Suppose that we know that A is 100 and we know that B is above 50 and below 150. Is A greater than B?
> ...



Except for the fact he does have feats and not completely featless(like Smoothie or Queen for example), he just doesn't have the necessary feats to survive G4. The statement is important after all, I'm saying "Zoro for now can't survive G4". Because by your logic I can also say that we don't know if Cracker can tank a regular G4 even if he doesn't have the feats to tank one. 

100% Featless (like Smoothie or Queen) =/= Character with feats that haven't shown specific feats to counter attacks (Cracker or postskip Zoro)

That's why we don't currently discuss Smoothie but discuss Cracker and Zoro.

In conclusion; we go by what's given. Upon revealing new information from the manga we can update our views or have completely new ones.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 6, 2017)

Bambino said:


> @Admiral Kizaru You're post was going well until that numeric measure of Luffy (100) and Zoro (98/99). Neither the likes of Capone, Bonney or better yet Killer haven't demonstrated themselves to be as high strictly speaking in relation to Luffy but they landed a Supernova spot. Zoro is not neck and neck with Luffy in overall terms.
> 
> However, he is close enough (I'd say 9 points removed) and added with his proximity to Luffy's madness (as with Killer to Kidd) he'd get a nod. As it stands Luffy is ahead by a margin which small as it may be makes a significant boost its noticeable. The relationship of brotherhood doesnt mean Zoro and Luffy have to become twins.



Bonney & Capone are the captains of their own crew. Naturally as such they're afforded a lot more prestige & reputation than first mates, even if their strength doesn't necessarily warrant it as they're the most important component that keeps their crew functional. The point is the fact that Zoro as a mere first mate, so with expectations and prestige naturally dampened as that is, is still able able to command a spot among the supernovas is a testament to his strength and just what an exceptional first mate he is.

And I try to take a holistic view of this, looking at events from the first chapter Zoro was introduced and how his relationship with Luffy has developed since then and what that portends to. 

The problem I see from skim reading most of the posts in this threads, is that for whatever reason ....... probably because Oda wants to save him for Wano which will be his arc ....... Oda has had Zoro basically do the square root of fuck all since the time skip. The only serious fights he's been in have been with complete jokers and chancers. I had hoped that Pica would have been the first guy since the TS to push Zoro to his limits, but sadly at least from a strength point of view Pica was a massive failure like the rest of the seats (one of the many faults with DR). Such as that is, we've got people on here writing essays microanalysing a few cocktease panels of him clashing with Fujitora and twisting events to suit their particular narrative.

I predict that after Wano, when hopefully we see Zoro finally pushed to his limits, people will once again being to realise how strong Zoro is and how special he is among first mates.


----------



## Pocalypse (Jan 6, 2017)

Luffy/Zoro relationship will be the same as Roger/Rayleigh relationship so Zoro will be "close" to Luffy but not as close as Garp and Whitebeard were to Roger. Moreover Zoro will never be = to Luffy because Luffy will be the Pirate King and the strongest friend in the seas.

Zoro may be Oda's favourite character but he isn't going to break his tradition of a first mate being weaker than its Captain (and in this instance, not just the Captain but the Pirate King himself) just to appease Zoro fans.


----------



## MYJC (Jan 6, 2017)

The Zoro wank is insane, people actually think he could do something against G4? 

As of now I'd give G2/G3 Luffy a slight advantage over Zoro, as even before G4 existed Oda NEVER portrayed Luffy as somehow weaker than Zoro. G4 is pretty much an "I win" move against Zoro, however I'd agree that they're close otherwise.


G4>>>G2/G3 Luffy~Law=>Zoro

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## Dunno (Jan 6, 2017)

kurisu said:


> Except for the fact he does have feats and not completely featless(like Smoothie or Queen for example), he just doesn't have the necessary feats to survive G4. The statement is important after all, I'm saying "Zoro for now can't survive G4". Because by your logic I can also say that we don't know if Cracker can tank a regular G4 even if he doesn't have the feats to tank one.
> 
> 100% Featless (like Smoothie or Queen) =/= Character with feats that haven't shown specific feats to counter attacks (Cracker or postskip Zoro)
> 
> ...



It's not about being completely featless, it's about not having the applicable feats. We haven't seen the extent of Zoro's endurance since he hasn't been pushed even close to his limit. We haven't even seen the extent of his offensive capabilities. Therefore we can't judge his endurance at all by feats, and therefore we can't say that Luffy going by feats would be able to put down Zoro within the time limit or that Zoro would be able to outlast it. We've seen the extent of Cracker's endurance, and we can draw conclusions from that. We can't do the same for people who have some feats but haven't got any tanking feats though, like for example Shanks and Mihawk. Just to clarify, this is looking at it from a purely feat-based standpoint. We can of course judge characters based on portrayal and hype even if they don't have enough feats. 



MYJC said:


> The Zoro wank is insane, people actually think he could do something against G4?
> 
> As of now I'd give G2/G3 Luffy a slight advantage over Zoro, as even before G4 existed Oda NEVER portrayed Luffy as somehow weaker than Zoro. G4 is pretty much an "I win" move against Zoro, however I'd agree that they're close otherwise.
> 
> ...


Are you perhaps related to Gohara?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Mylesime (Jan 6, 2017)

kurisu said:


> I have no idea what you're arguing about anymore in all honesty.
> 
> And really, Cracker is faster than Doflamingo since he managed to evenly fight with G4(on and off) for 11 hours something Dofla barely managed to survive for 20 minutes. And less versatile? The guy that can spawn an army of G2/G3 clones?
> 
> I am honestly tired of repeating myself and hearing the same tired arguments. You can't convince me. Let it die.


I'm not trying to convince you, as you're clearly not expecting to convince me, we're just explaining how we interpret differents elements, we do not agree, that's all. I understand your view i just don't share it.
For me luffy, had to give everything he had to beat doflamingo in 20 minutes before the time limit, he had no other choice and barely failed, but failed nonetheless.
Doffy while dominated by gear 4, once he overcame the element of suprise, could hold his own against the gear 4:


Specially once he used the awakening , he couldn't hurt luffy, but he showed that he could stale until luffy exhausted himself.
To sum it up, for me, if doflamingo survied luffy's first use of gear 4 it's because luffy use too much haki with this form, as law and doflamingo immediately understood it:



In short if doflamingo was able to resist , it's not because of luck, but just because he was able to adapt to it, and had the tools to succeed.


 So i rate doflamingo higher than you do, i was more impressed than you by his performance, and i rate cracker lower than you do. The fact that he was unable to catch luffy during all this time and hate physical contact are huges deficiencies (COO, AOE unable to deal with all the homies and nami for 11 hrs while luffy was regaining his strength,etc,etc), so overall craker and doflamingo are pretty much on the same level, for me, i get it that you don't agree, maybe i'm wrong , it doesn't matter.



Nidai Kitetsu said:


> Yeah, Sanji shows his stuff, goes to 90. But what happens when Zoro shows his stuff afterwards? It goes back to Luffy-100, Zoro-99.


I  already included zoro's hypothetical stuffs in my rating, because i think that zoro has already shown a lot (his black blades imbued with COA), enough to allow us to deduce, to scale imprecisely his level. While i can see him proving to be stronger than law, so be a 95 with this rating, i sincerely doubt that he has something up his sleeve of the magnitude of the gear 4. That shit is creazy. 
  Sanji is a different animal, oda has deliberately shown his limits  , physically and mentally, there is a reason why he looks like shit since the time skip, rather since shabaondy (broke his leg, his kindness according to brooke, losing his blood etc,etc). There is no way for zoro to evolve as much , zoro touched his limits when he kneeled in fornt of mihawk and kuma, since then the guy is a beast and a model of consistency. Zoro is already at or near yonkou commander level, sanji is not, their imediate progression won't be the same.


----------



## batman22wins (Jan 6, 2017)

Josh said:


> It would be pretty bullshit writing if Zoro =< Luffy like some people here keeps implying. And to the extend, lots of people say Zoro will defeat Jack or someone stronger, so he's already that strong. This couldn't be more wrong.
> 
> Let's have a quick look at thier growth rate, maybe starting from pre-skip Sabody Archipelo.
> 
> ...


How about we start from the start of the series. In WP Zoro and Luffy fought at WP has equals. Luffy only surpassed Zoro at water 7. Zoro close the gap in TB with adding a new sword with his normal arc improvement. Post timeskip. Luffy needed Law to beat Doffy and Zoro hasn't gone all out.


----------



## batman22wins (Jan 6, 2017)

Zoro>G2/G3 Luffy, but since Zoro hasn't gone all out amd showed his feats, then G4>>Zoro until proven otherwise.


----------



## Dunno (Jan 6, 2017)

batman22wins said:


> Zoro>G2/G3 Luffy, but since Zoro hasn't gone all out amd showed his feats, then G4>>Zoro until proven otherwise.


As I've explained numerous times, that's not how it works. Since Zoro hasn't gone all out, Zoro doesn't have enough feats to compare him to Luffy, especially not since the main way of beating Luffy is to outlast G4, and Zoro hasn't taken much damage at all since the TS. You wouldn't say that G4 >> Dragon or G4 >> Shanks until proven otherwise, would you? The whole notion of "until proven otherwise" only makes sense if you prefer one outcome to the other, for example in a courtroom, where it's considered better to let a guilty man go that to convict an innocent one. If you use it when arguing between two characters, then all it means is "I like this character more than that other, so since their feats are incomparable, the one I like the most is the strongest". 

If A is 100 and B is unknown, then can you honestly say that A is bigger than B "until proven otherwise"?


----------



## ThatGreekLady (Jan 6, 2017)

I watched the new movie and I don't get how Zoro was portayed to be equal to Sanji, if anything I saw the opposite. Zoro was more impressive than Sanji.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## batman22wins (Jan 6, 2017)

Dunno said:


> As I've explained numerous times, that's not how it works. Since Zoro hasn't gone all out, Zoro doesn't have enough feats to compare him to Luffy, especially not since the main way of beating Luffy is to outlast G4, and Zoro hasn't taken much damage at all since the TS. You wouldn't say that G4 >> Dragon or G4 >> Shanks until proven otherwise, would you? The whole notion of "until proven otherwise" only makes sense if you prefer one outcome to the other, for example in a courtroom, where it's considered better to let a guilty man go that to convict an innocent one. If you use it when arguing between two characters, then all it means is "I like this character more than that other, so since their feats are incomparable, the one I like the most is the strongest".
> 
> If A is 100 and B is unknown, then can you honestly say that A is bigger than B "until proven otherwise"?


Ok you don't have to use the until proven otherwise. Luffy G4 is stronger then current Zoro, but context is Zoro has got pushed. Shanks has potrayal over Luffy and no feats. Both Zoro and Luffy has feats you can compare. We know Luffy got pushed and Zoro didn't. Its context.


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 6, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> Lmao
> 
> The difference between Zoro and those said individuals is that Zoro has actually gotten feats post time skip, a nice load in fact. The problem is all you Zorotards go far beyond his shown feats and think he has only used like 10% of his overall power so far and scale him off of that, which is straight up BS. Zoro has shown good feats and those feats just don't match up to Luffy's in G4, as such we can say that... he does not stand a chance against Luffy while in G4.
> 
> Yes, it is true that Luffy was in a Zoro like predicament back when he had not shown G4. However, back then i doubt anyone doubted that Zoro was on par with Luffy because his feats as many have pointed out, did in fact surpass Luffy's shown feats while not in G4. Only down players would believe that Luffy before G4 was a nice bit stronger than Zoro.



Postskip Zoro has only fought people who were essentially fodder to him. Almost every ability he has used, aside from some basic CoA, was an ability he had within the first 300 chapters of One Piece. He has not even used Asura, which he got around chapter 400.  Compare this with Luffy, who has used G2 and G3 constantly. Zoro hasn't really used any significantly powerful moves from the timeskip. Compare this with Red Hawk, Elephant Gun, Elephant Gatling, etc., all of which Luffy used in the Fishman Island arc. And Zoro certainly hasn't used any major new powerups or forms the way Luffy has used G4. Zoro's strongest postskip opponent - Pica's stone golem - was destroyed by an attack Zoro had in East Blue. It bisected a mountain of solid stone.

Now, you could say Zoro was going all out, and he just didn't develop any new techniques over the timeskip. Maybe he just fell way behind Luffy and Sanji. And he just for whatever reason didn't bother to use Asura. Or you could not be ridiculously illogical and biased, and recognize that Zoro has only used a small fraction of his power since the timeskip, because his opponents were all so vastly far below him that he could beat them just by scaring them or by using techniques he had in East Blue.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jan 6, 2017)

ThatGreekLady said:


> I watched the new movie and I don't get how Zoro was portayed to be equal to Sanji, if anything I saw the opposite. Zoro was more impressive than Sanji.


 movies aren't canon anyway

@ everyone else

Let's put this in numbers:

G4 Luffy: 200
Luffy: 150
Zoro: 149 or 150
Law: 137
G2/G3 Luffy: 100
Sanji: 75

I honestly don't see how anyone can have G2/G3 Luffy > Zoro. That's literally been proven wrong time and time again. It will continue to be proven wrong in Wano


----------



## ThatGreekLady (Jan 6, 2017)

xmysticgohanx said:


> movies aren't canon anyway



Of course they aren't. I just mentioned it because some dude said the movie somehow proved Sanji and Zoro are equal. This is just false even if we were to assume the movies were canon.


----------



## Yuki (Jan 6, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Postskip Zoro has only fought people who were essentially fodder to him. Almost every ability he has used, aside from some basic CoA, was an ability he had within the first 300 chapters of One Piece. He has not even used Asura, which he got around chapter 400.  Compare this with Luffy, who has used G2 and G3 constantly. Zoro hasn't really used any significantly powerful moves from the timeskip. Compare this with Red Hawk, Elephant Gun, Elephant Gatling, etc., all of which Luffy used in the Fishman Island arc. And Zoro certainly hasn't used any major new powerups or forms the way Luffy has used G4. Zoro's strongest postskip opponent - Pica's stone golem - was destroyed by an attack Zoro had in East Blue. It bisected a mountain of solid stone.
> 
> Now, you could say Zoro was going all out, and he just didn't develop any new techniques over the timeskip. Maybe he just fell way behind Luffy and Sanji. And he just for whatever reason didn't bother to use Asura. Or you could not be ridiculously illogical and biased, and recognize that Zoro has only used a small fraction of his power since the timeskip, because his opponents were all so vastly far below him that he could beat them just by scaring them or by using techniques he had in East Blue.



Anyone who thinks Zoro has still only used a minimum % of his power so far has absolutely no right to tell someone else they are being.

--flaming--


----------



## hokageyonkou (Jan 6, 2017)

^ So what are you saying? Daisen Sekai is the best we can expect from zoro? Which is not that bad that's a mountain level move.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 6, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> Anyone who thinks Zoro has still only used a minimum % of his power so far has absolutely no right to tell someone else they are being.



So you have no response. That's what I thought.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Yuki (Jan 6, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> So you have no response. That's what I thought.



I clearly give one. 

--flaming--

I honestly didn't have you down there with Vlad when it comes to Zorotards but it seems i may have been wrong.


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 6, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> I clearly give one.
> 
> .I honestly didn't have you down there with Vlad when it comes to Zorotards but it seems i may have been wrong.



You've got nothing. You think that using East Blue techniques is Zoro's way of going all out. You're biased to the point of being delusional, and you have no response whatsoever to a post simply pointing out that Zoro trained for two years, and, of course, obviously, has abilities that he developed and hasn't shown yet.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Winner 3 | Dislike 1


----------



## Yuki (Jan 6, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> You've got nothing. You think that using East Blue techniques is Zoro's way of going all out. You're biased to the point of being delusional, and you have no response whatsoever to a post simply pointing out that Zoro trained for two years, and, of course, obviously, has abilities that he developed and hasn't shown yet.



When did i say he went all out? I said he hasn't just used a minimal % of his fking power.  He has shown upgraded versions of those moves.

I'm even the one to refuse Asura is Zoro's big move because i think he has something better.

You legit know nothing about the way i think of Zoro. 

Plz try harder and maybe read what someone posts once in awhile and you'd know fine well i think Zoro has something better than Asura.  Maybe you also missed the part in my post where i say Zoro obviously as the same kind of offence power as G4 Luffy and maybe the part where i say if speed and some other stuff is not taken into account it would of course be a very close match where even  both of them die. 

G4 is not just an offence power boost, it's speed, durability and a bunch of other stuff.  Stuff Zoro does not get by using a fking sword technique. His techniques are nothing more than offensive power.

Reactions: Dislike 3


----------



## Soca (Jan 6, 2017)

Keep it civil people.

Juvia calm down.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 2


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Jan 6, 2017)

All those  emojis in one post ........ it's like the ghost of Spiro has returned.

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 6, 2017)

What a lovely thread ￼￼

So how about my solution for the Zoro threads till he gets his real feats?


----------



## zoro (Jan 6, 2017)

I was waiting for page 10 to say how good it was to read so many posts about a controversial topic with no unnecessary flaming involved

Alas! 

But hey, 8 pages is still good. Keep at it lads

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 7, 2017)

I already ended this thread on the first page with Zoro admitting inferiority to Luffy at FI and getting no valid refutation 

Since then Luffy has made the gap even bigger by fighting Dolfamingo, Cracker and the enraged army 

It's also hilarious how these Zoro fans assemble like the Power Rangers, disliking any post that even remotely gives an accurate placement of Zoro Kappa

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 3 | Optimistic 2


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> I already ended this thread on the first page with Zoro admitting inferiority to Luffy at FI and getting no valid refutation
> 
> Since then Luffy has made the gap even bigger by fighting Dolfamingo, Cracker and the enraged army
> 
> It's also hilarious how these Zoro fans assemble like the Power Rangers, disliking any post that even remotely gives an accurate placement of Zoro Kappa




Zoro has never admitted inferiority to luffy your on drugs. 

Ignoring that fact that  Zoro never said anything of the like. How does it make any sense whatsoever for Zoro to have any good gauge of how strong Luffy was in fishman island. He just met up with luffy that same fucking day. Does Zoro have some special skill that i did not know about the tells him the exact abilitys of someone he looks at 

Zoro had no idea how strong luffy was in Fishman island so its impossible for him to make anything more then a educated guess on his strength.

But of course you dont seem to use common sense so whatever

Edit: actually im wrong ZOro did admit inferiority to Luffy in EL, but not fishman island.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Disagree 1


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Zoros never admitted inferiority to luffy your on drugs.



Read the back and forth between Barreltheif and me on page 1.  You rated nearly all of them ''optimistic''.

'Grandmaster' fans

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 2 | Dislike 2


----------



## batman22wins (Jan 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Read the back and forth between Barreltheif and me on page 1.  You rated nearly all of them ''optimistic''.
> 
> 'Grandmaster' fans


Zoro has never admitted Luffy is stronger than him. The only thing Zoro admitted in 800+ chapters is he wanted to to know who stronger between him and Luffy at WP.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Disagree 2


----------



## Soca (Jan 7, 2017)

batman22wins said:


> Zoro has never admitted Luffy is stronger than him.


didn't mihawk do it for him?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Read the back and forth between Barreltheif and me on page 1.  You rated nearly all of them ''optimistic''.
> 
> 'Grandmaster' fans



Yes i read them and they are all ridiculous. 

Simple fact of the matter is Zoro did not know how strong Luffy was until Dressrosa where he presumably saw some of G4 luffy in action. Luffy knocking out fishman with CoTC tells Zoro nothing of how Luffy compares to him in strength. Zoro does not even have CoTC neither does Mihawk(AKa Zoro his shit all experience with CoTC users)how could Zoro possibly use Luffys display of CotC strength to guage how strong he is compared to himself. 

Makes absolutely Zero sense.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## batman22wins (Jan 7, 2017)

Marcelle.B said:


> didn't mihawk do it for him?


No he didn't and like 3 arcs later Zoro said he wamted to find out who was stronger between the two. So your wrong sorry

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


----------



## Soca (Jan 7, 2017)

batman22wins said:


> No he didn't and like 3 arcs later Zoro said he wamted to find out who was stronger between the two. So your wrong sorry



He kinda did 

Comparing who Luffy's has to fight to get to where he's going to who Zoro's been fighting is pretty telling, but eh, do you


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 7, 2017)

batman22wins said:


> Zoro has never admitted Luffy is stronger than him. The only thing Zoro admitted in 800+ chapters is he wanted to to know who stronger between him and Luffy at WP.



He didn't if you wilfully ignore manga panels



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Yes i read them and they are all ridiculous.
> 
> Simple fact of the matter is Zoro did not know how strong Luffy was until Dressrosa where he presumably saw some of G4 luffy in action. Luffy knocking out fishman with CoTC tells Zoro nothing of how Luffy compares to him in strength. Zoro does not even have CoTC neither does Mihawk(AKa Zoro his shit all experience with CoTC users)how could Zoro possibly use Luffys display of CotC strength to guage how strong he is compared to himself.
> 
> Makes absolutely Zero sense.



Saying something is ridiculous does not a refutation make. It's an appeal to incredulity.

Zoro did not know Luffy's _*limits*_ at FI. That does not mean he can't admit inferiority to the G2/3 Luffy that he saw there. You are arguing that it doesn't tell Zoro how he compares when he makes the comparison himself 

The character makes the comparison and you're here saying ''there is no way Zoro could possibly know''. He knows his limits and saw what Luffy was capable of. He then made the conclusion that he was below him.

Also Rayleigh had CotC, I expect Zoro will have it too. Making some absolute statement like ''Zoro does not have CotC'' is very premature and optimistic.


----------



## barreltheif (Jan 7, 2017)

Marcelle.B said:


> He kinda did
> 
> Comparing who Luffy's has to fight to get to where he's going to who Zoro's been fighting is pretty telling, but eh, do you



If anything he implied that Luffy would have to end up stronger than Zoro at the end of the manga, or at least that Luffy's goal is harder. Not that Luffy was stronger at the time. Look no further than Whiskey Peak and the two databooks if you want your answer.




Seraphoenix said:


> Read the back and forth between Barreltheif and me on page 1.  You rated nearly all of them ''optimistic''.
> 
> 'Grandmaster' fans



Probably not a good idea to draw attention to those posts if you want anyone to take you seriously. You'd be better off deleting them.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## batman22wins (Jan 7, 2017)

Marcelle.B said:


> He kinda did
> 
> Comparing who Luffy's has to fight to get to where he's going to who Zoro's been fighting is pretty telling, but eh, do you


No he didn't. He said your "Path" stop it. Mihawk didn't even know Luffy then and Mihawk can't speak for Zoro so thats nonesense in itself.


----------



## batman22wins (Jan 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> He didn't if you wilfully ignore manga panels
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Im not ignoring anything. Zoro never admitted it. You haven't proven anything. Zoro isn't weaker then g2/3 Luffy through.


----------



## Soca (Jan 7, 2017)

batman22wins said:


> No he didn't. He said your "Path" stop it. Mihawk didn't even know Luffy then and *Mihawk can't speak for Zoro so thats nonesense in itself.*



How come?


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 7, 2017)

barreltheif said:


> Probably not a good idea to draw attention to those posts if you want anyone to take you seriously. You'd be better off deleting them.



Anybody with half a brain would take them seriously.

You made a plethora of flawed arguments that were exposed for the foolishness they were.


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Anybody with half a brain would take them seriously.
> 
> You made a plethora of flawed arguments that were exposed for the foolishness they were.



Don't set your self up too much.

It's very likely that the Shogun is going to be Zoro's version of DD in this next Wano arc which i am hoping is going to be an arc without Luffy. It will be a first and Imo it would be pretty interesting to see what goes down.

I am hoping Law gets in on it as well so we do in fact see the similarities between them. Imo post Wano arc Zoro should be on par with Dressrosa arc Luffy. Two arcs of difference considering each characters growth arc by arc Imo is a good distance between Zoro and Luffy. Not too much, but not too close either.

This of course is IF the shogun is on par with DD.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> He didn't if you wilfully ignore manga panels
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. I find it ridiculous so i call it ridiculous don't like it i don't care.

2. Nice try but Luffy did not display jack shit in fishman island until after the CotC blast in the plaza. So Zoro still had nothing to gauge luffys strength on beyond him one shoting a px, and the elephant gun he used on a Kraken. Seeing as how Zoro has way more impressive feats then fucking up a kraken or PX we know that is not enough to convince zoro luffy is stronger then him.

3. Actually i said Zoro never made any comparison of his strength compared to Luffy. I was just stating further that its impossible for Zoro to relate a CoTC feat from Luffy to his own strength in the first place.

4. If Zoro does have CotC he has yet to unlock it and there for has not gone through proper training to utilize and train with it like luffy did with rayleigh, and also make it impossible for him to compare Luffys CoTc to his own. Not that someone having stronger CotC is a direct correlation of strength, anymore then someone having better CoA or CoO means that are stronger then someone else by a certain amount

Again that scene means shit.

Assuming Zoro even has CoTC his CoTC being weaker then Luffys CoTC does not mean he is weaker then G2/G3 Luffy that makes no sense whatsoever.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## batman22wins (Jan 7, 2017)

Marcelle.B said:


> How come?


Because Mihawk isn't Zoro. Zoro also fought Luffy to standmate a few arcs later and said himsepf he didn't think Luffy was stronger and wanted to find out who was between the two. Zoro spoke fir himself at WP. Matter a fact didn't Zoro want to join a tournament knowing Luffy was in it

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## batman22wins (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> Don't set your self up too much.
> 
> It's very likely that the Shogun is going to be Zoro's version of DD in this next Wano arc which i am hoping is going to be an arc without Luffy. It will be a first and Imo it would be pretty interesting to see what goes down.
> 
> ...


Wat? Luffy is going to Wano


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

batman22wins said:


> Wat? Luffy is going to Wano



Possibly, but they got split into teams for a reason. Luffy is expecting the Samurai to be handled by Zoro and Law by the time he gets there.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> Don't set your self up too much.
> 
> It's very likely that the Shogun is going to be Zoro's version of DD in this next Wano arc which i am hoping is going to be an arc without Luffy. It will be a first and Imo it would be pretty interesting to see what goes down.
> 
> I am hoping Law gets in on it as well so we do in fact see the similarities between them. Imo post Wano arc Zoro should be on par with Dressrosa arc Luffy. Two arcs of difference considering each characters growth arc by arc Imo is a good distance between Zoro and Luffy. Not too much, but not too close either.



That's fine and dandy but it says nothing about my argument with barrel. I really don't see how what you're saying is inconsistent with my views.

Also after Luffy's promise to Momo there is 0% chance Luffy is not in that arc.

I don't have a problem with Zoro being strong, but at this point he isn't close to Luffy if he was already weaker at FI with Luffy having 2 major and one decent (enraged army) fight after that, that pushed him to his limits.




Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. I find it ridiculous so i call it ridiculous don't like it i don't care.
> 
> 2. Nice try but Luffy did not display jack shit in fishman island until after the CotC blast in the plaza. So Zoro still had nothing to gauge luffys strength on beyond him one shoting a px, and the elephant gun he used on a Kraken. Seeing as how Zoro has way more impressive feats then fucking up a kraken or PX we know that is not enough to convince zoro luffy is stronger then him.
> 
> ...



Keep your ridiculous emotions to yourself brah.

Just because you can't see how Zoro can make that comparison does not mean he can't. He has far more knowledge of his own post-skip capabilities than you.

CotC is an expression of power gaps. I'm not going to repeat my posts. Read it or stay in ignorance.

How do you know he still has to unlock it? In what situation would it have been useful for him to use it?



batman22wins said:


> Because Mihawk isn't Zoro. Zoro also fought Luffy to standmate a few arcs later and said himsepf he didn't think Luffy was stronger and wanted to find out who was between the two. Zoro spoke fir himself at WP. Matter a fact didn't Zoro want to join a tournament knowing Luffy was in it



Would you mind joining the rest of us in post-skip?

Even if they were equal at chapter 100, a noticeable gap has opened.

Also Marcelle is right. Luffy's end goal is far above WSS. That's why we see a gap and how that gap is getting increasingly bigger.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> That's fine and dandy but it says nothing about my argument with barrel. I really don't see how what you're saying is inconsistent with my views.
> 
> Also after Luffy's promise to Momo there is 0% chance Luffy is not in that arc.
> 
> ...



1. Nothing i said was based on emotion. Just common sense logic.

2. CotC increases with power as does everything a fighter posses, trains, and uses. Zoro can not even utilize CoTC(Even if he does have it) so its completely irrelevant to his standing with Luffy or any other CotC user. I highly doubt Doflamingo has weaker CoTC then Luffy at the moment but G4 Luffy certainly beat that shit out of him.

3. Re-read the Timeskip or better yet the manga called One piece. Oda loves foreshadowing more then anything. Oda has been dick riding Zoro since the timeskip if he could utilize it Oda would of hinted at it by now. But im not god i forget and miss shit all the time. So if you got some manga panels that you believe that suggests Zoro has unlocked his CoTC and trained with it over the time-skip i would be happy to see them. At the moment im not going to assume Zoro can use CoTC, he might of unlocked it over the time skip but i have yet to see strong evidence in the manga to suggest it. My own personal fanfic is that Zoro will unlock it in Wano when he will be finally pushed to his limits since the time skip, and in pushing himself so much in the battles in Wano his CoTC will manifest and everyone will know the power of the grandmaster 

4. For the record i am of the opinion that Luffy>Zoro.* I am just against the silly notion that the op(Josh) put forth that Zoro cannot be close to Luffy period, which implies Zoro being able to give a good fight to luffy is some impossibility. *I am of the opinion that Luffy beats Zoro high diff. Same diff he would beat Zoro through most of the manga.

5. Back on topic i do feel your honestly reaching with Zoros comment, its out of character to begin with. Zoro is highly competitive with Luffy and Sanji. If Luffy and Sanji do something very impressive Zoro's not all cheerleader happy about it if anything he would get butt hurt. If Luffy's display in fishman island really impressed ZOro the point he thought luffy was X amount stronger then him. He would not say with a cocky smile on his face how its expected of luffy to accomplish that feat. He would be frustrated and say something on the lines of "Luffy has gotten so strong since i last saw him" or something of that nature that expresses Zoros acknowledgement of Luffys power growth. If anything i take that scene as Zoro not being very impressed, that if he had CoTC that he could do the same thing


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Nothing i said was based on emotion. Just common sense logic.
> 
> 2. CotC increases with power as does everything a fighter posses, trains, and uses. Zoro can not even utilize CoTC(Even if he does have it) so its completely irrelevant to his standing with Luffy or any other CotC user. I highly doubt Doflamingo has weaker CoTC then Luffy at the moment but G4 Luffy certainly beat that shit out of him.
> 
> ...



We are not going to reach an agreement with points 1 and 2. You are also speculating with that Dofla comment btw. Oda himself indicated that CotC is an expression of power level. He said Shanks could have knocked out all 100 000 because of the power gap.

You obviously want to ignore Zoro's statement where he has no reason to lie.

Does Oda foreshadow everything? otherwise that argument is useless.

Define high diff? Some people tend to say it's a high diff fight if Luffy uses G4.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> We are not going to reach an agreement with points 1 and 2. You are also speculating with that Dofla comment btw. Oda himself indicated that CotC is an expression of power level. He said Shanks could have knocked out all 100 000 because of the power gap.
> 
> You obviously want to ignore Zoro's statement where he has no reason to lie.
> 
> ...



Sure lets agree to disagree. I don't really care to be honest. 

Sanji vs Jyabura is what i would call a standard High diff fight. So a solid fight but when Sanji uses DJ(In this case Luffy uses G4). The fight is soundly won in the end without the need to be pushed to his limits.


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Sure lets agree to disagree. I don't really care to be honest.
> 
> Sanji vs Jyabura is what i would call a standard High diff fight. So a solid fight but when Sanji uses DJ(In this case Luffy uses G4). The fight is soundly won in the end without the need to be pushed to his limits.



You've just helped me see my Monster trio levels that much closer. Ty. Not directly of course, very much indirectly. 

DJ for Sanji was a power up, just like Asura was for Zoro. But unlike the gears they only received an attack boost from their's, instead of all the boosts Luffy gets from his gears. (Well... kinda... G3 as we all know was a pure attack boost.)


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> You've just helped me see my Monster trio levels that much closer. Ty. Not directly of course, very much indirectly.
> 
> DJ for Sanji was a power up, just like Asura was for Zoro. But unlike the gears they only received an attack boost from their's, instead of all the boosts Luffy gets from his gears. (Well... kinda... G3 as we all know was a pure attack boost.)



True DJ and Asura were just attack power boost. Although to be clear i was not trying to suggest that G4 to luffy is what DJ was to Sanji, but just as a indication of how the fight plays out. Once Luffy takes out the big guns Zoro loses soundly just like Jyabura did when Sanji took out the big guns in DJ


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> True DJ and Asura were just attack power boost. Although to be clear i was not trying to suggest that G4 to luffy is what DJ was to Sanji, but just as a indication of how the fight plays out. Once Luffy takes out the big guns Zoro loses soundly just like Jyabura did when Sanji took out the big guns in DJ



Oh i know what you meant. xD

In this thread before when someone else brought up Asura i said that it was just an attack boost unlike G4 which is just so much more.

But there was i totally forgetting about Sanji in all that lol. Not just him, but the other gears as well.

I love how Asura somehow went from a G3 level finishing attack to a G4 equalizer in peoples eyes.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> Oh i know what you meant. xD
> 
> In this thread before when someone else brought up Asura i said that it was just an attack boost unlike G4 which is just so much more.
> 
> ...



Now thats just Zoro wank honestly. Asura is not a equalizer its a equivalent to G3 in attack power that is all. 

Having G4 level attack power which im sure Zoro has is not enough. As you yourself have mentioned earlier in this thread. G4 is a Massive Speed Boost, Maneuverability boost, durability boost, and of course attack power boost. Its Basically Super Sayian just a bigger endurance drawback which seems to be quickly going away if Cracker vs Luffy is anything to go by


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Now thats just Zoro wank honestly. Asura is not a equalizer its a equivalent to G3 in attack power that is all.
> 
> Having G4 level attack power which im sure Zoro has is not enough. As you yourself have mentioned earlier in this thread. G4 is a Massive Speed Boost, Maneuverability boost, durability boost, and of course attack power boost. Its Basically Super Sayian just a bigger endurance drawback which seems to be quickly going away if Cracker vs Luffy is anything to go by



Yep and yep.

I have no doubt Zoro has that level of attack power with something new up his sleave, but it's not going to be Asura. I have no doubts that Zoro would kill none G4 Luffy as he has similar stats with way more attack power. His attack speed is likely on par with G2 Luffy if a little bit slower and his attack power is more than Luffy can do without G4. Imo Zoro is pretty much a G2/3 fusion with swords. Which is why i say, if Luffy has mastered the gear fusion of both G2 and G3 none G4 Luffy vs Zoro would be extreme dif fight.

But sadly i don't think we'll ever see Luffy do that again. >_> He may have just give up on it now he has G4 honestly. It would be like Vegeta going Super Vegeta instead of SSJ2 to fight Buu. Same level of drawback, ones just that much stronger.


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 7, 2017)

Why are some Luffy fangirls talking like Luffy can stay in G4 with 24/7 without any problem? As far as I remember, this happened to Luffy after using G4 in Dressrosa,



*Zoro's powerups dont come with a drawback *


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> Yep and yep.
> 
> I have no doubt Zoro has that level of attack power with something new up his sleave, but it's not going to be Asura. I have no doubts that Zoro would kill none G4 Luffy as he has similar stats with way more attack power. His attack speed is likely on par with G2 Luffy if a little bit slower and his attack power is more than Luffy can do without G4. Imo Zoro is pretty much a G2/3 fusion with swords. Which is why i say, if Luffy has masted the gear fusion of both G2 and G3 none G4 Luffy vs Zoro would be extreme dif fight.
> 
> But sadly i don't think we'll ever see Luffy do that again. >_> He may have just give up on it now he has G4 honestly.


What are you talking about juvia G2 Luffy>Zoro. How could you not see it.


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> What are you talking about juvia G2 Luffy>Zoro. How could you not see it.



-_- Now i see, thought it was too good to be true for you too see sense. >_>


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Nidai Kitetsu said:


> Why are some Luffy fangirls talking like Luffy can stay in G4 with 24/7 without any problem? As far as I remember, this happened to Luffy after using G4 in Dressrosa,
> 
> 
> 
> *Zoro's powerups dont come with a drawback *



Thats nice. 

King Kong Gun still sends Zoro back to Mihawks castle.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> -_- Now i see, thought it was too good to be true for you too see sense. >_>



This is why i like you Juvia so trusting. your just so fun to mess with. 

Do you honestly believe I the Leader of GrandMaster Zoros legion of followers believes he is weaker then G2/G3 Luffy . That version of luffy has done nothing but be shit on since the timeskip. Zoro cuts him in half. 

Also im still waiting on those pics Juvia


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> This is why i like you Juvia so trusting. your just so fun to mess with.
> 
> Do you honestly believe I the Leader of GrandMaster Zoros legion of followers believes he is weaker then G2/G3 Luffy . That version of luffy has done nothing but be shit on since the timeskip. Zoro cuts him in half.
> 
> Also im still waiting on those pics Juvia



I didn't say weaker than G2/3 Luffy, i said a fusion of both and i said extreme dif. 

I may have, but not anymore.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> I didn't say weaker than G2/3 Luffy, i said a fusion of both and i said extreme dif.
> 
> I may have, but not anymore.



Doubt we shall ever see that verion of luffy again like you said. G4 is basicailly g3+g2 just better.


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Doubt we shall ever see that verion of luffy again like you said. G4 is basicailly g3+g2 just better.



And now you know why i consider Luffy better than Zoro. 

Whatever you think that Luffy could be, is what i think Zoro is right now.

But hey, if you trolling me accomplished anything, it's that maybe JUST maybe you and some other Zoro fans can see where i actually rate Zoro, and you may see it's nothing compared to the Zoro down players.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Thats nice.
> 
> King Kong Gun still sends Zoro back to Mihawks castle.


So what happens to Luffy after KKG? And how many KKG's can he actually use in G4?

Zoro was able to take the pain and exhaustion that left Luffy unconscious in Thriller Bak (note that Luffy is also an endurance monster) on top of his own pain. That was pre-TS Zoro.

Are you sure that current Zoro at his full health cant survive a single KKG attack?


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

Seems i'm not the only on to fall for your trolling.  But i realized it a lot sooner.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> And now you know why i consider Luffy better than Zoro.
> 
> Whatever you think that Luffy could be, is what i think Zoro is right now.
> 
> But hey, if you trolling me accomplished anything, it's that maybe JUST maybe you and some other Zoro fans can see where i actually rate Zoro, and you may see it's nothing compared to the Zoro down players.



Well this is not really a new topic so i already knew where you stood on zoros power. I just like messing with you is all. 

I don't think your a zoro downplayer. And to be frank i don't really care overall. I'm a soon to be 23 year old man i really give little fucks what anyone thinks about how strong a fictional character is. I just like discussing things, debating is fun to me. But at the end of the day its just a fucking comic i give zero shits if you think zoro is X strength it wont hurt my feelings. Sorry if i came off us rude or anything, and im not trying to say your opnion or the opnions of others is shit or anything. Just i simply dont actually care like some of you people(not you specifically) seem to care to much about this crap. 

I don't care whos stronger between naruto and sasuke. i dont care if sanji is equal to zoro. I don't care that itachi is god whatever its not that important


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Well this is not really a new topic so i already knew where you stood on zoros power. I just like messing with you is all.
> 
> I don't think your a zoro downplayer. And to be frank i don't really care overall. I'm a soon to be 23 year old man i really give little fucks what anyone thinks about how strong a fictional character is. I just like discussing things, debating is fun to me. But at the end of the day its just a fucking comic i give zero shits if you think zoro is X strength it wont hurt my feelings. Sorry if i came off us rude or anything, and im not trying to say your opnion or the opnions of others is shit or anything. Just i simply dont actually care like some of you people(not you specifically) seem to care to much about this crap.
> 
> I don't care whos stronger between naruto and sasuke. i dont care if sanji is equal to zoro. I don't care that itachi is god whatever its not that important



Well then that's good i guess. 

You should care a little. >_> You do put your time and some effort into it after all. Reading manga and posting on a forum for hours a day is a hobby everyone here shares. Caring and being passionate about it isn't all that bad.

I'm 24, 25 next month. I'll probably care well into my 30s if i'm still reading it. Age has little to do with it, it's just a number.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Nidai Kitetsu said:


> So what happens to Luffy after KKG? And how many KKG's can he actually use in G4?
> 
> Zoro was able to take the pain and exhaustion that left Luffy unconscious in Thriller Bak (note that Luffy is also an endurance monster) on top of his own pain. That was pre-TS Zoro.
> 
> Are you sure that current Zoro at his full health cant survive a single KKG attack?



He goes and eats some meat is what happpens to luffy after. 

If current Zoro took one at 100 percent yea he could probably get back up but hes not going to be in fighting condition. But realistically Zoro wont be at 100 percent when he takes a KKG he will be more at like 50 percent maybe even less. Not like luffy would start the fight off with a fucking KKG


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> Well then that's good i guess.
> 
> You should care a little. >_> You do put your time and some effort into it after all. Reading manga and posting on a forum for hours a day is a hobby everyone here shares. Caring and being passionate about it isn't all that bad.
> 
> I'm 24, 25 next month. I'll probably care well into my 30s if i'm still reading it. Age has little to do with it, it's just a number.



Well of course i care a little bit as im on this forum to begin with and im passionate about anime/manga its a big part of my life. Just im not particularly invested in the strength level of characters. 

Now if you said One piece is a shit manga then i would take offense and argue all day with you why your wrong. If you say Doflamingo is a shit charcter(My fav charcter) then i will pick a fight, but you thinking DD is weaker or stronger then i do is pretty low on my fucks list.

my birthdays feburary 19 whens yours?


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Well of course i care a little bit as im on this forum to begin with and im passionate about anime/manga its a big part of my life. Just im not particularly invested in the strength level of characters.
> 
> Now if you said One piece is a shit manga then i would take offense and argue all day with you why your wrong. If you say Doflamingo is a shit charcter(My fav charcter) then i will pick a fight, but you thinking DD is weaker or stronger then i do is pretty low on my fucks list.
> 
> my birthdays feburary 19 whens yours?



I like to discuss power levels because i'm actually pretty good at figuring out levels and where people stand believe it or not.  (I posted two whole paragraphs there but it made me sound super arrogant so never mind. ) 

24th.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> I like to discuss power levels because i'm actually pretty good at figuring out levels and where people stand believe it or not.  (I posted two whole paragraphs there but it made me sound super arrogant so never mind. )
> 
> 24th.



Haha mines first i win


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Do you honestly believe *I the Leader of GrandMaster Zoros legion of followers *believes he is weaker then G2/G3 Luffy



Did Extravlad pass away or what?


----------



## Dunno (Jan 7, 2017)

Does anyone have a scan of the page where Zoro apparently admitted inferiority to Luffy? Cuz all I've seen so far are baseless claims.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Did Extravlad pass away or what?



Vlad 

Dude is just a mere foot solider. 

I've been around much longer then he has.


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Vlad
> 
> Dude is just a mere foot solider.
> 
> I've been around much longer then he has.



One that clearly does not know what he is talking about and thinks he can solo DD.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> One that clearly does not know what he is talking about and thinks he can solo DD.





exactly right juvia


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

Still does not compare to that other guy though that legit thought Zoro could mid dif DD. 

Vlad is close though. The only reason Vlad says Luffy is = to Zoro is because he knows he'll lose all credibility in everyone's eyes.

He still openly admits though that Zoro is better against any and all enemies and believes he can beat anyone Luffy can even if Luffy needed help to win.


----------



## Freechoice (Jan 7, 2017)

This is the most  toxic thread in this section

I'm usually against banning topics, but luffy vs zoro discussions should be banned for the time being, at least until Zoro gets solid feats

these types of threads simply foster and facilitate wankers to wanker and trolls to troll and haters to hate (myself included)

spamming dislike, agree, disagree, dislike ratings like nothing else

and both sides refuse to budge

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 3 | Dislike 1


----------



## Kaiser (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> Maybe you also missed the part in my post where i say Zoro obviously as the same kind of offence power as G4 Luffy and maybe the part where i say if speed and some other stuff is not taken into account it would of course be a very close match where even  both of them die.
> 
> G4 is not just an offence power boost, it's speed, durability and a bunch of other stuff.  Stuff Zoro does not get by using a fking sword technique. His techniques are nothing more than offensive power.


I'm not sure about G4 level offense. It may depend on Asura, though Daisen Sekai in itself was way more impressive than Luffy's g2/3 techniques, so there is that i guess. For the speed regard though i think there is a thing that is mistaken with Zoro here. He moves in a less "flashy" way than Luffy and as a result, it makes him seem slow, but in reality his close combat reaction and attacking feats are on point until yet(even blitzed Hody underwater) considering he reacted to everything he came across since the timeskip including some people who had feats to react to g2 level speed(which is pretty much the same as g4), so in the speed regard he doesn't have a upper-limit yet. In the durability regard as well, his best record is the minor injury he got in the clash with Fujitora making him almost featless there as well. That makes his character more hype than anything in many areas, not just offensive feats which may be scaled from his next fight he'd have in Wano considering he has not been pushed yet, so no reason to think he could have grown stronger


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> Still does not compare to that other guy though that legit thought Zoro could mid dif DD.
> 
> Vlad is close though. The only reason Vlad says Luffy is = to Zoro is because he knows he'll lose all credibility in everyone's eyes.
> 
> He still openly admits though that Zoro is better against any and all enemies and believes he can beat anyone Luffy can even if Luffy needed help to win.



Zoro mid diff DD. Good lord if only that was true


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Freechoice said:


> This is the most  toxic thread in this section
> 
> I'm usually against banning topics, but luffy vs zoro discussions should be banned for the time being, at least until Zoro gets solid feats
> 
> ...



Zoro vs Luffy is honestly not even discussed that often in length unlike the Mihawk vs Shanks threads before they were banned. Only reason this thread is so big is because of Josh click bait title.

Also can't really ban Zoro. Sure he has not had that many feats relative to luffy but he still has some. We allow characters with less feats then Zoro to participate in discussions with luffy and other characters.

That being said i really dont care mods can ban whatever they want i rarely make threads to begin with.


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

Kaiser said:


> I'm not sure about G4 level offense. It may depend on Asura, though Daisen Sekai in itself was way more impressive than Luffy's g2/3 techniques, so there is that i guess. For the speed regard though i think there is a thing that is mistaken with Zoro here. He moves in a less "flashy" way than Luffy and as a result, it makes him seem slow, but in reality his close combat reaction and attacking feats are on point until yet(even blitzed Hody underwater) considering he reacted to everything he came across since the timeskip including some people who had feats to react to g2 level speed(which is pretty much the same as g4), so in the speed regard he doesn't have a upper-limit yet. In the durability regard as well, his best record is the minor injury he got in the clash with Fujitora making him almost featless there as well. That makes his character more hype than anything in many areas, not just offensive feats which may be scaled from his next fight he'd have in Wano considering he has not been pushed yet, so no reason to think he could have grown stronger



I said later on that his reaction speed is on level with Luffy if not a little slower than G2. But i may be wrong there in that regard, maybe giving Zoro too much credit. I consider Zoro the power house one, he will have just as much offence as Luffy Imo. That does not mean i think he can match the KKG however. G4 level attacks does not mean his best attack gets scaled to that monstrosity.

Luffy so far has really been able to react to almost anything with his G2 speed pretty much always getting him out of most things. This is because Imo Luffy needs said reactions to be able to control his G4 speed. Just moving in G4 would greatly increase his reactions.


----------



## Freechoice (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Zoro vs Luffy is honestly not even discussed that often in length unlike the Mihawk vs Shanks threads before they were banned. Only reason this thread is so big is because of Josh click bait title.
> 
> Also can't really ban Zoro. Sure he has not had that many feats relative to luffy but he still has some. We allow characters with less feats then Zoro to participate in discussions with luffy and other characters.
> 
> That being said i really dont care mods can ban whatever they want i rarely make threads to begin with.



do you love Garp?


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Freechoice said:


> do you love Garp?



Garps a bad ass. 

but im afraid i dont like him. Family comes first, he let Ace die period. Garps a piece of shit.


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 7, 2017)

Freechoice said:


> This is the most  toxic thread in this section
> 
> I'm usually against banning topics, but luffy vs zoro discussions should be banned for the time being, at least until Zoro gets solid feats
> 
> ...


I dont see that many quality vs threads in this section. Most of them are one sided. This thread is not really about feat, its about portrayal and hype too. This is one of the topic that every OP fans is interested in and so far people are not disrespectful. Let new users (Mylesime for example) come and participate rather than a few usual suspects flame baiting or ranking who is the greatest Zoro/Luffy fan/tard in OL.


----------



## Kaiser (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> I said later on that his reaction speed is on level with Luffy if not a little slower than G2. But i may be wrong there in that regard, maybe giving Zoro too much credit. I consider Zoro the power house one, he will have just as much offence as Luffy Imo. That does not mean i think he can match the KKG however. G4 level attacks does not mean his best attack gets scaled to that monstrosity.
> 
> Luffy so far has really been able to react to almost anything with his G2 speed pretty much always getting him out of most things. This is because Imo Luffy needs said reactions to be able to control his G4 speed. Just moving in G4 would greatly increase his reactions.


I can also imagine his strongest techniques being on G4 level outside of KKG that is just too powerful from the look of it, so i guess i can agree with that. I also agree with g2 speed mainly because i think g2 and g4 are similar in speed. I don't think there have been shown many difference between the mods in the speed regard. It's more the g4 power output that is out of hand



Freechoice said:


> do you love Garp?


Seriously what's your problem? This is 2017. I honestly don't want another headache with you. If you don't like me that much, just put me on your ignore

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Kaiser said:


> I can also imagine his strongest techniques being on G4 level outside of KKG that is just too powerful from the look of it, so i guess i can agree with that. I also agree with g2 speed mainly because i think g2 and g4 are similar in speed. I don't think there have been shown many difference between the mods in the speed regard. It's more the g4 power output that is out of hand
> 
> Seriously what's your problem? This is 2017. I honestly don't want another headache with you. If you don't like me that much, just put me on your ignore



You underestimate the GrandMaster.

Zoro will always have stronger attacks then Luffy always.


----------



## Kaiser (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> You underestimate the GrandMaster.
> 
> Zoro will always have stronger attacks then Luffy always.


My imagination just don't go that far. If it ends up being the case, then so be it, but i just can't imagine it at the moment with the way i perceive KKG


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Freechoice said:


>



Hey at least he is better then itachi. That piece of crap actually killed his family. 

God i hate itachi.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Vlad
> 
> Dude is just a mere foot solider.
> 
> I've been around much longer then he has.



Well he is certainly the most polarising of the Zoro fans.

You are at least rational most of the time. Vlad is the poster boy for people like Hawkeye etc.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Hey at least he is better then itachi. That piece of crap actually killed his family.
> 
> God i hate itachi.



Why hate the king?



Accept him as your lord and saviour



Nidai Kitetsu said:


> I dont see that many quality vs threads in this section. Most of them are one sided. This thread is not really about feat, its about portrayal and hype too. This is one of the topic that every OP fans is interested in and so far people are not disrespectful. Let new users (Mylesime for example) come and participate rather than a few usual suspects flame baiting or ranking who is the greatest Zoro/Luffy fan/tard in OL.



I actually agree with you here. You should post it in the suggestion thread as I did.

Removing Zoro vs Luffy means adding to the Shanks vs Mihawk and Admirals vs Yonko banned threads. It discourages newer users who never discussed those things.

Those type of topics hold far more interest to readers than the usual garbage threads in the OL.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Monstar6 (Jan 7, 2017)

Zoro have 2 durability feats :
-Fujitora'gravity
-Pica's mini-golem punch

On topic : i want to know if @Donquixote Doflamingo get @Juvia. pictures


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

Kaiser said:


> My imagination just don't go that far. If it ends up being the case, then so be it, but i just can't imagine it at the moment with the way i perceive KKG



Indeed, the force that uplifted half a god damn city was not even the attack, but the force of DD just smashing into the ground after receiving said attack. 

Such a force would be far greater than a full city falling on top of you. That force alone laughs at Pic'a Golem. Never mind the attack it's self hitting you. 

That's why i just can't believe that just anyone can take it, especially someone i perceive as weaker than Luffy himself.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Monstar6 said:


> Zoro have 2 durability feats :
> -Fujitora'gravity
> -Pica's mini-golem punch
> 
> On topic : i want to know if @Donquixote Doflamingo get @Juvia. pictures



Sadly no. All i want is a face pic is that to much to ask.   Hell i will link you guys to my facebook if you want and your all welcome to add me as long as you dont troll my page XD.


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

I prefer to keep online apart from real life for health and safety reasons. xD


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> I prefer to keep online apart from real life for *health and safety reasons. *xD



Sadly i cant say your overreacting. The internet is a fucked up place. 

Although i usually freely add and accept people on my facebook regardless cause i like talking to new people. Met some cool people because of that.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> Indeed, the force that uplifted half a god damn city was not even the attack, but the force of DD just smashing into the ground after receiving said attack.
> 
> Such a force would be far greater than a full city falling on top of you. That force alone laughs at Pic'a Golem. Never mind the attack it's self hitting you.
> 
> That's why i just can't believe that just anyone can take it, especially someone i perceive as weaker than Luffy himself.



I can't wait for Wano. 

You shall all see the greatness of Zoro that is only surpassed by Lord Gilgamesh


----------



## Wayne With The Ism (Jan 7, 2017)

Zoro will always be below Luffy unless he unlocks Conqueror's Haki. A follower can never be a leader's superior.
If we take the feats realistically just like the guy who posted on the first page it should be something like this.
G4 Luffy 100
G2/3 Luffy ~60
Zoro ~60
Sanji ~40
But we all know that is not true. Not accounting Asura Zoro but from what we've seen from Zoro so far G4 Luffy would curbstomp Zoro and Sanji one versus two. G4 Luffy just has too much speed, power, and defense. But that is also unrealistic since we've yet to see Zoro or Sanji go all out.


----------



## ThatGreekLady (Jan 7, 2017)

You know I think Ace wouldn't have wanted to be saved by his marine grandfather anyway, it's a matter of pride. Ace made his decision to become a pirate knowing that this would clash with Garp's beliefs. I think it would be completely humiliating to Ace if he was saved by Garp.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## batman22wins (Jan 7, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> That's fine and dandy but it says nothing about my argument with barrel. I really don't see how what you're saying is inconsistent with my views.
> 
> Also after Luffy's promise to Momo there is 0% chance Luffy is not in that arc.
> 
> ...


I agree Luffy G4 has put a gap, but context is needed. Zoro hasn't been pushed like Luffy to reveal his trump card.


----------



## Yuki (Jan 7, 2017)

batman22wins said:


> I agree Luffy G4 has put a gap, but context is needed. Zoro hasn't been pushed like Luffy to reveal his trump card.



His trump card will be another offensive move likely on par with a G4 finisher.

Not like Luffy where he unleashes an entire new mode that pushes every single one of his stats to limits beyond what anyone could have expected.

Zoro's strength, speed and other things will not change. We already have very good indications of those stats, and we know it's not on par with Luffy while in G4. If it was, Pica would have been dead 2 seconds into the battle.


----------



## Amol (Jan 7, 2017)

So everyone agree that,
Luffy > Law ~ Zoro > Sanji.
So far so good.
As long as no one is putting '=' between Luffy and Zoro there is no quarrel. 
Zoro is Rayleigh to Luffy's Roger, not Whitebeard. There is some measurable gap between Roger and Rayleigh. Nobody ever mistook or considered Rayleigh for WSM. Even with deadly illness that needed to put him on IV's WB's ability to beat an Admiral was never in question unlike Rayleigh's.  Same logic applies with Zoro. He is strong, very strong. There is no doubt about it. Unlike the most of the FM he is actually on same general level of his Captain. He is just not equal to Luffy. That is the crossing line where you stops being a fan and becomes a tard. Simple fact of Zoro's goal being Mihawk while Luffy's being Roger clears any confusion.
So can all we for love of God and in the spirit of New Year accept that Luffy is unquestionably stronger than Zoro AND Zoro is close to his Captain ?
That would save some real headache and make OL more peaceful. 
Now does any ningen of you has RedMi Note 4 ? I need some reviews about it.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

ThatGreekLady said:


> You know I think Ace wouldn't have wanted to be saved by his marine grandfather anyway, it's a matter of pride. Ace made his decision to become a pirate knowing that this would clash with Garp's beliefs. I think it would be completely humiliating to Ace if he was saved by Garp.



Can't feel shit when your Dead  

Would Ace rather die then be saved by grandpa perhaps. Should Garp give a darn about what ace wants, hell no.


----------



## MYJC (Jan 7, 2017)

Amol said:


> So everyone agree that,
> Luffy > Law ~ Zoro > Sanji.
> So far so good.
> As long as no one is putting '=' between Luffy and Zoro there is no quarrel.
> ...



I think the dispute is _how_ close they are and whether G4 needs to be involved.

Some people think that Luffy loses to Zoro without G4 and other people (such as myself) disagree. There are also people that flat out think Zoro can outlast G4.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 7, 2017)

Amol said:


> So everyone agree that,
> Luffy > Law ~ Zoro > Sanji.
> So far so good.
> As long as no one is putting '=' between Luffy and Zoro there is no quarrel.
> ...



Didn't you read that Mihawk was the one who slayed Roger in his Prime?


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

MYJC said:


> I think the dispute is _how_ close they are and whether G4 needs to be involved.
> 
> Some people think that Luffy loses to Zoro without G4 and other people (such as myself) disagree. There are also people that flat out think Zoro can outlast G4.


Luffy beat ZOro without G4  

He can't even deal with a biscuit soilder without G4 how do you expect him to defeat the GrandMaster


----------



## Amol (Jan 7, 2017)

MYJC said:


> I think the dispute is _how_ close they are and whether G4 needs to be involved.


If only that was the case. We do have number of overzealous Zoro fans who think Zoro is equal to his Captain and future Pirate King. You get all types here.


> Some people think that *A)* Luffy loses to Zoro without G4 and





> *B)*other people (such as myself) disagree.


I go in C) category.
I believe that Zoro is equal to G2/G3 Luffy. That means fight between them is 50/50 %. Both categories A and B does disservice to either Luffy or Zoro. See if Luffy every time needs G4 to beat Zoro then fight between them is of extreme diff considering G4's severe drawbacks. That would make them equals which again can't be right. On the flip side if G2/G3 Luffy can beat Zoro every time then Zoro's great portrayal becomes false. He has not been portrayed as someone who is too behind Luffy. 
One has to reach compromise here.
Also those who thinks that G2/G3 isn't upto par with Zoro they actually might be right. Individually neither G2 nor G3 can deliver fatal blow to Zoro. He is respectively too durable and lethal for them. Thankfully Luffy has Gear Stacking. Luffy has overcame drawbacks of both G2 and G3 now so it should be lot ... healthier for him to use it. If Zoro fans are gonna pretend that Zoro has many stronger attacks hidden then they have to give same consideration to Luffy. We haven't seen post ts Gear Stacking yet.
Inb4 Luffy can't use Gear Stacking now.
In that case I would be forced to reply that maybe Zoro also can't use Asura now . 


> There are also people that flat out think Zoro can outlast G4.


Then those people are morons as being able to outlast G4 means being stronger than Luffy. You put likes of them in SI. Trump will marry Clinton first before Zoro becomes stronger than Luffy.


----------



## Bielec (Jan 7, 2017)

I think that the difference in power was shown during cp9 fight, and Oda is sticking with it more or less. Luffy had huge problem with fighting someone with 4000 douruki, while Zoro and Sanji defeated people at 2200 with less difficulty, and in Dressrosa Doflamingo and Pica, are also not one the same level, so we have Luffy struggling a lot more than Zoro. Going with that Sanji and Zore are more than half as powerfullas Luffy, but not close to his full strenght IMO, I would say if Luffy is 100, then Zoro and Sanji should be around 60-75 (in linear scale). 
Also at the beggining of One Piece, Luffy and Zoro were propably closer than now.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Amol said:


> If only that was the case. We do have number of overzealous Zoro fans who think Zoro is equal to his Captain and future Pirate King. You get all types here.
> 
> 
> I go in C) category.
> ...



Gear Stacking is not really gonna help a whole lot. The reason Luffy should not try and use G3 moves against Zoro is not cause they are to slow and Zoro can just dodge them(Which is also true), but because if Luffy trys to outmuscle Zoro if you will he is just going to get his arm fucked up. If Luffy wants to have a attack power contest, Zoro is more then happy to join. Stacking G2 does not stop Lion song from cutting Luffys arm off. Luffys better off sticking purely with G2 to out maneuver him and avoid his sword techniques, if he trys to go smashy smashy with power moves he is going to lose.


----------



## Amol (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Gear Stacking is not really gonna help a whole lot. The reason Luffy should not try and use G3 moves against Zoro is not cause they are to slow and Zoro can just dodge them(Which is also true), but because if Luffy trys to outmuscle Zoro if you will he is just going to get his arm fucked up. If Luffy wants to have a attack power contest, Zoro is more then happy to join. Stacking G2 does not stop Lion song from cutting Luffys arm off. Luffys better off sticking purely with G2 to out maneuver him and avoid his sword techniques, if he trys to go smashy smashy with power moves he is going to lose.


I am not following you.
Do we have agreement that G2 is lot faster than Zoro ?
He blitzed DD twice with it who was reacting to Law.
So Gear Stacking gives Luffy G2 speed. He obviously will land hits on Zoro which obviously will do lot of damage to him as it combines G2 and G2's power.
And on the subject of lethality. Nothing short of Zoro's absolute strongest attacks(SS,Asura) are cutting Luffy.
Base Luffy literally tanked both DD's awakened strings and Cracker's Armour's Sword. He also punched Issho's sword without getting his hand cut. Luffy has enough feats against cutting attacks now to dismiss the notion that any time his fist and Zoro's sword will make contact, Luffy will get cut. That won't happen now.
Gear Stacking has everything that needs to beat Zoro. For Zoro to win he has to land attack on Luffy before he goes Gear Stacking(he won't go immediately after all).

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## hokageyonkou (Jan 7, 2017)

If hyuzou can react to G2, then you bet your ass zoro can react to g2. Zoro has speed burst attacks like shishi sonson, which is upgraded now to Shi Shishi sonson. Imagine zoro uses a hakified Shi ShiShi sonson. that would fuck anybody up. Daisen Sekai is a mountain Level attack. zoro didnt even use his gorilla technique yet and then you have ashura. 

Lets talk about durability and endurance, we have luffy who lost consciousness due to blood loss in fishmen island. Has zoro ever lost consciousness due to blood loss?

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


----------



## Extravlad (Jan 7, 2017)

DD has shit offensive power tbh.
And gear 2 is not a LOT faster than Zoro.
Monet was fast enough to react to Luffy's G2 and put herself in front of Caesar to protect him yet Zoro was portrayed as being far faster than her when he was stopping her from harming Nami.
G2 is faster but not by that much.

If Luffy doesn't go G4 he'd get mid diffed by Zoro.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Amol said:


> I am not following you.
> Do we have agreement that G2 is lot faster than Zoro ?
> He blitzed DD twice with it who was reacting to Law.
> So Gear Stacking gives Luffy G2 speed. He obviously will land hits on Zoro which obviously will do lot of damage to him as it combines G2 and G2's power.
> ...



I dont recall it blitzing DD but yes G2 is noticable faster then Zoro. Gear stacking makes him faster then he normally would be still slows him down, and geastacking does not change the fact said attacks are highly telegraphed moves cause its still a giant ass fist and all. Hes not going to hit him as easy as he would if he just stuck with G2. Not that zoro would try to dodge anyway he is more then happy to respond with a counterattack which takes less reaction time then dodging

Zoro needs his best moves to hurt luffy Now  not even going to waste my time arguing this. Regardless Lion song fucks him up either way you know the move specifically designed to cut hard things

I never said Luffy is incapble of blocking any of zoros moves. Although why block sword with your hand if you dont have to. I said if luffy trys a power contest he is going to lose. If luffy throws a grizzly magnum at zoro, he is obviously not going to respond with some weak ass sword attack, he will respond with a big move himself.


----------



## hokageyonkou (Jan 7, 2017)

If we go long range zoro has 1080 pound cannon, which is like half a mountain move.

Zoro has another speed burst attack,  rashoumon, which we havent seen post skip yet.


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 7, 2017)

_Lets read some of the reactions from various communities after chapter 754 where Zoro used 1080 pound canon.  _

























_I took this post from one of my buddies in OroJackson. You can see how people started to doubt the superiority of pre-G4 Luffy after 1080 pound canon. And some of the people here actually believe Luffy has an equal chance of winning against Zoro with only G2/G3.   _

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Amol (Jan 7, 2017)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I dont recall it blitzing DD but yes G2 is noticable faster then Zoro.


Well he did. Twice.
If he can blitz DD he can blitz Zoro.


> Gear stacking makes him faster then he normally would be still slows him down, and geastacking does not change the fact said attacks are highly telegraphed moves cause its still a giant ass fist and all. Hes not going to hit him as easy as he would if he just stuck with G2. Not that zoro would try to dodge anyway he is more then happy to respond with a counterattack which takes less reaction time then dodging
> 
> Zoro needs his best moves to hurt luffy Now  not even going to waste my time arguing this. Regardless Lion song fucks him up either way you know the move specifically designed to cut hard things
> 
> I never said Luffy is incapble of blocking any of zoros moves. Although why block sword with your hand if you dont have to. I said if luffy trys a power contest he is going to lose. If luffy throws a grizzly magnum at zoro, he is obviously not going to respond with some weak ass sword attack, he will respond with a big move himself.


Lion's Song,SS, Asura are not kind of attacks Zoro can deploy at moments notice. It takes noticeable amount of technique preparation for Zoro to use them. You are still ignoring Luffy's speed advantage.
Zoro is not going to react to him untill last moment. I am not saying Luffy is gonna blitz him left and right but he sure as will be acting while Zoro doing the reacting.
Zoro has to be on attacking to use his high power moves. With him being on constant defense he isn't cutting Luffy as long as Gear Stacking is on.
If you want to ignore manga facts and pretend that Luffy has shit durability against cutting attacks then go ahead but it still doesn't change the fact that Luffy tanked DD's ultimate technique Awakening's strings in his base or he tanked Cracker's Armour's Sword.
Remember how nobody ever forced Cracker out of his Armour before Luffy? Yeah it means Cracker beat all of them including Urouge using that armour sword.
Luffy has high end feats against cutting attacks. He.Is.Not.Getting.Cut.Easily here. He also isn't getting one shotted. Those were pre skip days. IMO you are severely underestimating Gear Stacking.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Jan 7, 2017)

Zoron couldn't even solo Pica yet people still try to act like he's been casually wrecking shit. There is some definite G2/G3 Luffy wank in this thread though. 

Law is for sure stronger than G4less Luffy and Zoron should be about equal to Luffy without his trump card, maybe a bit stronger


----------



## hokageyonkou (Jan 7, 2017)

^ I agree zoro still has lots of room for improvement. He shoudnt need help getting close to pica. I mean Mihawk's casual attacks are city level attacks. So this tells how far zoro has to go.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Amol said:


> Well he did. Twice.
> If he can blitz DD he can blitz Zoro.
> 
> Lion's Song,SS, Asura are not kind of attacks Zoro can deploy at moments notice. It takes noticeable amount of technique preparation for Zoro to use them. You are still ignoring Luffy's speed advantage.
> ...



I recall Luffy hitting DD while in G2 and DD shit talking luffy right after, but hitting someone and blitzing them are two different things. G4 blitzed DD.

I think your letting Anime/Manga dramatization get to you. Just cause Zoro gets in a bad ass stance and says some shit before he uses a attack does not mean it takes prep or something. Zoro brought out Asura in the midst of Kakus 4 sword style barrage he can use it on the drop of a hat, In the case of Lion Song its literaly a Iaijutsu technique aka quick draw technique by definition its fast. Regardless i could say the exact same thing for Luffys attacks. He has to blow up his fist into the size of a giant as well as swing his arm backwards for the snap back effect. Its clear as day what luffys trying to do and Zoro will see the attack coming a mile away.

Has nothing to do with Luffy having shit durability or not more on the lines of it means shit. Zoro can cut through a mountain like butter. If Luffy wants to try and tank it he can go right ahead. Obviously he can block lower end moves im not suggesting that with a wave of zoros sword luffys body parts disappear, but Zoros high end moves are stronger then luffys gear 3 moves. If they collide Zoro wins.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Monstar6 (Jan 7, 2017)

Nidai Kitetsu said:


> I can show you some posts from youtube after three thousand worlds, you can see angry reaction from fans in any online forum



I expect to see the same thing after Wano until people will refuse to acknowlege how Oda is writing Zoro character.

Oda is writing Zoro for him to be badass by being impressive. That's why , for example, Zoro is the only character (to date) to have beating a Logia without haki or a devil fruit. 
Therefore if people think that Oda is saving "going all out Zoro" for it too be un-impressive they set themselves for disapointement.
The longer Oda hold in the "Zoro going all out" , the stronger it will be.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Extravlad (Jan 7, 2017)

I'll add the OL reaction to Zoro embarassing Pica to those screenshots



I was banned back then so I couldn't make mess out of this thread 

btw

Amol's post 

Josh's post 

Didn't take you long to back to your usual Zoro downplay tho.

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 7, 2017)

Freechoice said:


> This is the most  toxic thread in this section
> 
> I'm usually against banning topics, but luffy vs zoro discussions should be banned for the time being, at least until Zoro gets solid feats
> 
> ...



>Mods, please allow controversial versus threads. 

>Mods, please ban controversial versus threads. 





Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Hey at least he is better then itachi. That piece of crap actually killed his family.
> 
> God i hate itachi.



I have power here. Wrong section to insult the King. Keep your Itachi hate in Konoha Library.


----------



## batman22wins (Jan 7, 2017)

Juvia. said:


> His trump card will be another offensive move likely on par with a G4 finisher.
> 
> Not like Luffy where he unleashes an entire new mode that pushes every single one of his stats to limits beyond what anyone could have expected.
> 
> Zoro's strength, speed and other things will not change. We already have very good indications of those stats, and we know it's not on par with Luffy while in G4. If it was, Pica would have been dead 2 seconds into the battle.


You don't know what his Trump card is. He could be able to sustain Ashura for the entire battle or have some other move.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 7, 2017)

Josh said:


> The problem is if Zoro is infact that close to Luffy now, then he should be stronger than Luffy at fishman island, which is stupid and bad writing.


luffy at fisherman island = current luffy he hasnt learnt anything new he already knew G4 before fisherman island


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jan 7, 2017)

Nah fishman island arc Luffy is weaker than current Luffy but not by much

That applies to all SHs


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 7, 2017)

Extravlad said:


> I'll add the OL reaction to Zoro embarassing Pica to those screenshots
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Fuck! That thread is beautiful as hell. I just blew a big load on the screen.


----------



## kagehisa89 (Jan 7, 2017)

OP is right; how can Zoro be close to Luffy?

Zoro hasn't even shown Ashura and his own "G4" new move yet

When a SEVERELY RESTICTED Zoro already portrayed better than Luffy against ALL of his opponents (including Fujitora and Doflamingo)

You are right

Once Zoro shows his 100%, there is no way Luffy will be able to keep up LMAO

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Nidai Kitetsu said:


> I can show you some posts from youtube after three thousand worlds, you can see angry reaction from fans in any online forum



Youtube is probably the worst place to go for a intelligent discussion besides tumbler so im not surprised by these comments. They are funny though XD.


----------



## Dayscanor (Jan 7, 2017)

Of course not...



Zoro is stronger.


----------



## Dayscanor (Jan 7, 2017)

I want muh Zoro back.

Reactions: Like 2 | Friendly 1


----------



## Nox (Jan 7, 2017)

Nidai Kitetsu said:


> Neither did Kidd, but he also landed a supernova spot and I am sure you wont argue against him being neck to neck to Luffy. *I dont understand, why Kidd-Killer's strength gap should provide you an indication about Luffy-Zoro's strength gap?* Luffy and Zoro has more important and direct parallels throughout the series, Roger-Rayleigh, *Shanks-Mihawk,* Blackbeard-Shiryuu. Kidd and Killer might not be the rival of the strawhats that we were once hoping for.



You trying to say that since I have supported Law, Kidd and Luffy as an M3, I'd by measure be inclined to compare Zoro. People in direct and closest opposition to Luffy and have gone as far as causing the major actions of the verse and praised in his absence. (alongside Hawkins and Drake). To a man who is molded to be his right hand thus a subordinate? Nein. 

*@Bold:* Son where did you come up with this shit? If anything I have said in the past Zoro is an unquestioned Top 5. Meaning were we to exclude aforementioned three only one other person can claim superiority over him. I've always stuck with either Hawkins/Drake being that person. Second, sure Zoro's roles in this age as WSM and FM puts him above most silver medalist. Nonetheless, Rodger, Shanks and Blackbeard were not undisputed GOATs or at least not until they had PK.

They had competitors who have more clout to them in said time than Rayleigh, Mihawk and Shiryuu. Bear in mind this was before a time when we had droves of pirates. With the death of Rodger/WB more pirates were ushered out to seas hence a bigger pool of quality talent. Rodger had WB, Shiki, Shanks and BB have Yonkos. Lastly, if we follow your setup with the exclusion of the 2 swordsmen (since its a clustefuck showdown) their is a clear cut difference in power. 



Admiral Kizaru said:


> Bonney & Capone are the captains of their own crew. Naturally as such they're afforded a lot more prestige & reputation than first mates, even if their strength doesn't necessarily warrant it as they're the most important component that keeps their crew functional. The point is the fact that Zoro as a mere first mate, so with expectations and prestige naturally dampened as that is, is still able able to command a spot among the supernovas is a testament to his strength and just what an exceptional first mate he is.



Fair enough.



> And I try to take a holistic view of this, looking at events from the first chapter Zoro was introduced and how his relationship with Luffy has developed since then and what that portends to.



This I agree with. One of my favorite moments was in Skypeia when Zoro is taken out and Luffy rushes to him and upon inspecting him verbally acknowledged the enemy is strong & turns into his quiet unrelenting pissed off self. As for Zoro we've seen him shift from I'll kill you if you interfere with my dream to laying his life/pride down.



> The problem I see from skim reading most of the posts in this threads, is that for whatever reason ....... probably because Oda wants to save him for Wano which will be his arc ....... Oda has had Zoro basically do the square root of fuck all since the time skip. The only serious fights he's been in have been with complete jokers and chancers. I had hoped that Pica would have been the first guy since the TS to push Zoro to his limits, but sadly at least from a strength point of view Pica was a massive failure like the rest of the seats (one of the many faults with DR). Such as that is, we've got people on here writing essays microanalysing a few cocktease panels of him clashing with Fujitora and twisting events to suit their particular narrative.



IMO Zoro showings are comparable to those of G2/G3 Luffy. I'd argue Oda is doing this intentionally to highlight Ray-Rodgers parallel in which the former was the Dark King. Pika is the only major enemy of his Luffy never fought/encountered. I feel the true determinant of difference between them will be their own mastery of their kill moves (Asura and additional Gears). What I will agree with Zoro (hardcore) fans is that he has taken steps to cut difference between himself and the old gears. What they refuse to acknowledge is that Luffy himself has other modes to ensure he is on pace to keep his top spot cue the Asura can match G4.



> I predict that after Wano, when hopefully we see Zoro finally pushed to his limits, people will once again being to realise how strong Zoro is and how special he is among first mates.



My apprehension has always been with the Luffy = Zoro (or that Zoro = Sanji shit) brigade since their deliberate exaggeration of Zoro irks me. As a character Zoro has always been one of the more special ones in the series & Wanokuni should allow Oda shine a spotlight on him.



Mylesime said:


> If i had to grade them at the end of the story it would be something like that if i include other characters:
> Luffy:A+ with prime roger, prime WB, eos BB, eos aka in, prime garp
> Zoro:A with mihawk, kizaru, the yonkou, eos shiliew, prime rayleigh
> Sanji:A- with eos smoker, fujitora, eos laffite, marco, yonkou first mates
> ...



This is perfectly sums up my message. As for the ratings what I had down was based on current standings. Lest this become a Zoro vs Law shit show I will say Law is looking solid in this light by a fair few. Good thing about all this is Wano will let us see really where Supernovas stand.


----------



## Shanks (Jan 7, 2017)

Well... This sure kept people busy during the break


----------



## Shanks (Jan 7, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> luffy at fisherman island = current luffy he hasnt learnt anything new he already knew G4 before fisherman island


Such a naive soul


----------



## Nox (Jan 7, 2017)

xmysticgohanx said:


> movies aren't canon anyway
> 
> @ everyone else
> 
> ...




G4 Luffy: 300
Fatigued Law: 180-200
G2/G3 Luffy: 150
Zoro: 150
Luffy: 100
Sanji: 80-100*

We have never had an extended fight with a fresh 100% Law so we can't verify his level. Though, we've seen him fight injured/tired and he performed better than G2/G3. By extent Zoro's feats match G2/G3 so we cannot put him higher based on Asura or whatever unknown variable. Prior to this I'd have put Sanji > Base Luffy easily. However with latter having haki, durability to sustain a blunt attack from Fuji which is > Sanji (kicks = blunt based). Second he's moved/reacted fast enough to Doflamingo's combat speed. His only hope is using his fire attacks.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 7, 2017)

Bambino said:


> G4 Luffy: 300
> *Fatigued Law: 180-200*
> G2/G3 Luffy: 150
> *Zoro: 150*
> ...

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 7, 2017)

Bambino said:


> People in direct and closest opposition to Luffy and have gone as far as causing the major actions of the verse and praised in his absence. (alongside Hawkins and Drake).


What actions are you talking about here? Can you elaborate?
A praise by Brownbeard means quite nothing in the bigger stage. Chinjao wasnt really impressed by anybody from the worst generation except Blackbeard (in the beginning of the Dressrosa arc), whose assessment is more reliable than Brownbeard's.



Bambino said:


> *@Bold:* Son where did you come up with this shit? If anything I have said in the past Zoro is an unquestioned Top 5. Meaning were we to exclude aforementioned three only one other person can claim superiority over him. I've always stuck with either Hawkins/Drake being that person.


I was referring to this part of your earlier text,


Bambino said:


> _he is close enough (I'd say 9 points removed) and added with his proximity to Luffy's madness (as with Killer to Kidd) he'd get a nod._


But fair enough that you place him at top 5.



Bambino said:


> Second, sure Zoro's roles in this age as WSM and FM puts him above most silver medalist. Nonetheless, Rodger, Shanks and Blackbeard were not undisputed GOATs or at least not until they had PK.
> 
> They had competitors who have more clout to them in said time than Rayleigh, Mihawk and Shiryuu. Bear in mind this was before a time when we had droves of pirates. With the death of Rodger/WB more pirates were ushered out to seas hence a bigger pool of quality talent. Rodger had WB, Shiki, Shanks and BB have Yonkos. Lastly, if we follow your setup with the exclusion of the 2 swordsmen (since its a clustefuck showdown) their is a clear cut difference in power.


The problem is this part though. If I understood correctly, you are actually placing EoS Zoro at top 5 _only_ among the EoS supernovas. If you say currently Zoro is top 5 or he will be top 5 during Wano among the supernovas, I am fine with it. But EoS is an entirely different game.
I think most of the supernovas will lose their significance by EoS. Drake and Hawkins has no chance. Law has also near to zero chance as he is not a rival to the strawhats anymore in my view. Only Kidd has some chance, but we will see about that, things are not really looking very good for him atm.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 8, 2017)

Josh said:


> Such a naive soul





we clearly see a flash back of him and the dark knight talking about G4 well before he ever fights mingo. it wasnt something he just learned during that fight. 

i understand your inexperience though, you will learn as you grow up


----------



## charles101 (Jan 8, 2017)

Josh said:


> Well... This sure kept people busy during the break


----------



## MrPopo (Jan 8, 2017)

During East Blue saga and up to Whiskey Peak Zoro was close to Luffy but after that the gap between luffy and Zoro continued to become larger as Luffy fought stronger oppents than Zoro. The Gap between luffy and Zoro became more clear during Enies Lobby where Luffy Fought Rob Lucci who is nearly double in Strength than Kaku. Zoro is close to Luffy but Luffy will always be one step ahead of Zoro


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 8, 2017)

HawkEye13 said:


> This means Roger could potentially defeat 2 Yonkos at the same time.


why is this problematic?

we saw at marineford that an old and sick whitebeard with half of his head missing was capable of putting akainu down with one hit. admirals are broadly equivalent to yonkous. consider the difference between marineford wb and prime wb, and then consider than roger >= wb. it follows

also this whole principle you're expounding of captains always having to high diff their first mates really collapses when you consider the gap between whitebeard and marco

though...



Admiral Kizaru said:


> It's definitely closer to a Roger/Rayleigh relationship of brothership instead of a child/father relationship of a Whitebeard/Marco where the first mate is several leagues below the captain.


good point


----------



## Bohemian Knight (Jan 8, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Zoron couldn't even solo Pica yet people still try to act like he's been casually wrecking shit. There is some definite G2/G3 Luffy wank in this thread though.
> 
> Law is for sure stronger than G4less Luffy and Zoron should be about equal to Luffy without his trump card, maybe a bit stronger


Funny how forget that Zoro didn't need help beating Pica, at all. He just needed help to beat Pica before the latter could attack the scrubs that he started targeting when he realized he had zero chance of harming Zoro. Pica knew his place and moved onto more manageable targets, prompting Zoro to ask Orlumbus to help him end the fight promptly. Zoro needed help getting into position to end the fight then; if he and Pica were the only ones on the island, Zoro would have needed zero aid and would've won with low difficulty.

The only reason Zoro v. Pica doesn't qualify for an outright stomp is that Pica was tricky to catch. The only time Pica had a chance of drawing blood that whole fight was when he targeted weaker opponents, and Zoro was so vastly superior that he was able to defend his allies without risking injury to himself. Vergo was the only member of Doffy's crew that could give Zoro any sort of challenge.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## HawkEye13 (Jan 8, 2017)

Lucaniel said:


> why is this problematic?
> 
> we saw at marineford that an old and sick whitebeard with half of his head missing was capable of putting akainu down with one hit. admirals are broadly equivalent to yonkous. consider the difference between marineford wb and prime wb, and then consider than roger >= wb. it follows
> 
> ...


Where did i say this?
Surely you understand that Roger/Rayleigh and Luffy/Zoro a'rent your typical captain and FM. If Roger can beat 2 Yonkos at the same time then i actually won't have any problems with Luffy being 'much' stronger than Zoro but from the way Oda portray them throughout the story, it doesn't seem to be the case., i actually would like that to happen since it would give a reality slap to all the delusional people who thought PK only  >=Yonko


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 9, 2017)

HawkEye13 said:


> Where did i say this?
> Surely you understand that Roger/Rayleigh and Luffy/Zoro a'rent your typical captain and FM. If Roger can beat 2 Yonkos at the same time then i actually won't have any problems with Luffy being 'much' stronger than Zoro but from the way Oda portray them throughout the story, it doesn't seem to be the case., i actually would like that to happen since it would give a reality slap to all the delusional people who thought PK only  >=Yonko


yeah following on from what kizaru said up there, luffy and zoro do have more of a roger/rayleigh relationship
but, following on from wb in marineford and extrapolating upwards for prime condition and roger, the PK could have taken two yonkos...as long as one of the yonkos wasn't wb


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 9, 2017)

Lucaniel said:


> yeah following on from what kizaru said up there, luffy and zoro do have more of a roger/rayleigh relationship
> but, following on from wb in marineford and extrapolating upwards for prime condition and roger, *the PK could have taken two yonkos*...as long as one of the yonkos wasn't wb


----------



## ThatGreekLady (Jan 17, 2017)

G4 Luffy>>>Zoro= G2/G3 Luffy> Law (Law even with his ridiculous hax did worse against DD than G2/G3 Luffy did, if Vergo could blitz Law, then Luffy could do it too)


----------



## Nidai Kitetsu (Jan 17, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> I actually agree with you here. You should post it in the suggestion thread as I did.
> 
> Removing Zoro vs Luffy means adding to the Shanks vs Mihawk and Admirals vs Yonko banned threads. It discourages newer users who never discussed those things.
> 
> Those type of topics hold far more interest to readers than the usual garbage threads in the OL.


True. Most One Piece fans cant participate in threads like who is JoyBoy or what is Void Century. But everyone can participate in topic like Luffy vs Zoro, Zoro vs Sanji, Zoro vs Law, Shanks vs Mihawk, Yonko vs Admirals, Admirals vs yonko_1st_mates. They probably dont encourage quality posts, but lets be honest, how many quality posts do you actually see here? And flame baiting, insulting etc is bound to happen in any threads where many people participate and start to disagree with one another. Nakama thread is another example of such a topic where people can participate easily.
If you guys truly want more people to participate in discussion, create those threads again and introduce some rules like one liners are not allowed.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jan 17, 2017)

ThatGreekLady said:


> G4 Luffy>>>Zoro= G2/G3 Luffy> Law (Law even with his ridiculous hax did worse against DD than G2/G3 Luffy did, if Vergo could blitz Law, then Luffy could do it too)


 Zoro saw Fujitora obliterate G2/G3 Luffy but he was still way more than willing to fight him.

Luffy did better than Law because he was gamma knifed

Luffy needs to lengthen his G4 + awaken. After that he'll become a legit top tier imo


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Jan 17, 2017)

ThatGreekLady said:


> G4 Luffy>>>Zoro= G2/G3 Luffy> Law (Law even with his ridiculous hax did worse against DD than G2/G3 Luffy did, if Vergo could blitz Law, then Luffy could do it too)


G2/G3 Luffy performed worse against Doffy than a tired and injured Law did...Luffy was getting laughed at before Gamma Knife happened

Reactions: Agree 1


----------

