# Bernkastel (Umineko) vs Giygas (Earthbound)



## Emerald Chaos (Jan 17, 2011)

What the title says.

Who wins?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 17, 2011)

A pretty interesting match considering the limitations of both characters are rather vague. All I can say for sure is that the universe loses.


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## Weather (Jan 17, 2011)

The universe loses, That's for certain.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Jan 17, 2011)

she can't comprehend the true form of Giygas's attack


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## Weather (Jan 17, 2011)

> she can't comprehend the true form of Giygas's attack



It Doesn't work on Bernkastel!

Bernkastel usses Psi Bigbang!


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 17, 2011)

I don't think a Big Bang would actually do anything to Giygas on account of it being incorporeal.


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## Weather (Jan 17, 2011)

In my opinion... this will never end. Really.


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## KaiserWombat (Jan 17, 2011)

Gigyas is cooler, it automatically wins

Well, that and not being a Wapanese loli-pop


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## Weather (Jan 17, 2011)

Make it adult Bern Then


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 17, 2011)

Weather said:


> In my opinion... this will never end. Really.



I'd think she'd be driven to insanity and suicide eventually. An eternity with nobody but Giygas for company? Pretty scary thought.


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## Red (Jan 17, 2011)

What are Giygas? Ive heard a lot about them but sadly I haven't played any Mother games.


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## Weather (Jan 17, 2011)

> I'd think she'd be driven to insanity and suicide eventually. An eternity with nobody but Giygas for company? Pretty scary thought.



I think she already did that... or something like that.
That's pretty much the reason she became a Witch, and her Title of Witch of Miracles Came for passing that.

Bern Suiciding? Drirven to Insanity? Hell She IS insane already, and making people insane IS her Hobby.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 17, 2011)

Red said:


> What are Giygas? Ive heard a lot about them but sadly I haven't played any Mother games.



Giygas is the abstract embodiment of evil. It's a mindless, incorporeal being that destroys the universe ten years into Earthbound's future.


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 17, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> I'd think she'd be driven to *insanity and suicide eventually.* *An eternity with nobody but Giygas for company? Pretty scary thought.*



She is already insane. 


And she enjoys that kind of stuff.



I mean...

*Spoiler*: __ 



________
Lamda: Lets play a new game! I will lock you in a wonderful castle. This castle is going to be surrounded by castle walls of 12 km to a side with a height of 10 meters. Using your magic is prohibited! And that place will start getting buried with gems, one every day! And I will lock you in it, till the castle walls are packed with them, and you have been buried to death! Is not that a very romantic game?

Bern: -yawns- If you multiply the length of the walls by 5 and make the height one tenth its current heigh, I would not mind if you shut me in it right now.

Lamda: Really? The time period of the punishment game would more than double, right?! Oh I really love your Bern!


Bern: -yawns-
_____________





Bernkastel's personality is a mixture of :

A little bit of Hannibal Lecter, L (from death note), a little bit of Dio Brando and some other twisted personalities.



In Dawn of the Golden Witch, as Lambdadelta talks about the horrors of logic errors, she said, as an example, that Bernkastel was a cat used as a piece by an unnamed game master. Lambdadelta explains that Bernkastel, just like the "Infinite Monkey Theorem", had to step on a keyboard for centuries until she typed the word "Miracle", thus correcting the error, and earning the title "The Witch of Miracles".

Bernkastel is named "The Witch of Miracles" because she knows that miracles can't really happen and that everything is a matter of possibilities, since it's already been explained that she can only make a miracle happen if the possibility isn't 0%. Thus clearly contradicting her title which is supposed to alter things that would have a 0% chance of happening. (Even though according to Umineko logic and Devil's Proof, pretty much everything has more than 0% chance of happening.)


At best she gets bored and stops living. And then she comes back to life and so for the rest of eternity.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 17, 2011)

Then she'll just be really bored for the rest of eternity. Giygas is hardly the ideal conversation partner, after all, and it has no apparent interest in games or amusement.


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## Red (Jan 17, 2011)

@Micheal You took the words from my mouth.





Eldritch Sukima said:


> Giygas is the abstract embodiment of evil. It's a mindless, incorporeal being that destroys the universe ten years into Earthbound's future.


Thanks.

Like Weather said, Bern is already insane. Think ecstatic insanity, the type that's popular in Lovercraftian stories. In fact, going with what we've heard of Bern, the Giygas would be the perfect thing to help keep her from boredom.

I can honestly see Bern unleashing Giygas unto different universes for shits and giggles then sitting back with popcorn. So I see this as a draw where they win, we all lose.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Jan 17, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo4grGvnC3c&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

she can't grasp the true form of this video


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## Absolmasquade (Jan 19, 2011)

> I'd think she'd be driven to insanity and suicide eventually.


She cannot suicide properly. In addition, she is insane already anyway.


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## Red (Jan 19, 2011)

^If she stops thinking she can suicide.


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## ragnara (Jan 19, 2011)

She would probably die against Giygas again and again for all eternity so if anyone gets even half a victory it's him.


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## Emerald Chaos (Jan 19, 2011)

I thought this would be a good matchup because both characters seemed roughly even in their power output, and on top of that, Bernkastel's power is defined as the ability to create "miracles" and in Earthbound it's pretty much a miracle which saves Ness and co.

So... is it pretty much a tie over all?


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## willyvereb (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm a bit siding with Bern, actually.
Giygas got beaten by the "power of friendship"(emotions of all humans on Earth) and other than being more chaotic than chaos itself, has no notable huge assets.
To say he's the abstract of evil though. It makes him hard to fight head-on or fighting it at all.

But Bernkastel is the which of endless possibilities. She can bring out an outcome where Giygas doesn't become an overwhelming mass of evil and live a happy life. She did this to Takane. Giygas hadn't shown immunity to retroactive time fuckery. That bug/insect whatever came back from 10 years of the future to warn Ness of the universe's end. Bern travels back in time and just makes so that Giygas lives a happy life with his/its adoptive mother. Case solved. The chaotic Giygas never comes to existence.


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 19, 2011)

Emerald Chaos said:


> I thought this would be a good matchup because both characters seemed roughly even in their power output, and on top of that, Bernkastel's power is defined as the ability* to create "miracles" and in Earthbound it's pretty much a miracle which saves Ness and co.*
> 
> So... is it pretty much a tie over all?



That is interesting. 

If that is the case well...

This is how the magic of Bernkastel works:

1) As already said if the chances of winning are = to 0 then her powers are not going to work.
2) But if the odds are above 0. Then  it is possible for her to create a "miracle".
Even if the odds of winning are 0.00000000001%  she can find a way to achieve victory. 

For example:  It was stated multiple times that the odds of defeating Beatrice in her game were basically null. Or  at least close to be equal to 0.

Even Lamdadelta (who is the witch of certainty/absolute) stated that Beatrice's board and strategy was kinda perfect. "The odds were totally against Battler".

But things dramatically changed when Bernkaster decided to interfere directly in the fourth game.

What is more when Bernkastel was active during the fifth game. You could say that despite the "almost non existing chances of defeating Beatrice", she lol semi-curbstomped  Beatrice and even humiliated her. 

While in the previous game it seemed like an impossible task to defeat Beatrice, Bernkastel made it look like a kids game. 

She won,  but Battler thanks to a deux ex machina turned into the next game master, denied the "truth" of  Bernkastel and saved Beatrice's ass. 

However it does not matter since in the seventh game  Bernkastel  wins.


Bernkastel can repeat the "events"  countless of times till she has success  "turning the 0+ into a miracle".


Not saying that she wins. However I am just mentioning that.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Jan 19, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> I'm a bit siding with Bern, actually.
> Giygas got beaten by the "power of friendship"(emotions of all humans on Earth) and other than being more chaotic than chaos itself, has no notable huge assets.
> To say he's the abstract of evil though. It makes him hard to fight head-on or fighting it at all.
> 
> But Bernkastel is the which of endless possibilities. She can bring out an outcome where Giygas doesn't become an overwhelming mass of evil and live a happy life. She did this to Takane. Giygas hadn't shown immunity to retroactive time fuckery. That bug/insect whatever came back from 10 years of the future to warn Ness of the universe's end. Bern travels back in time and just makes so that Giygas lives a happy life with his/its adoptive mother. Case solved. The chaotic Giygas never comes to existence.



best way to beat Giygas is to pull a *BACK TO THE FUTURE!!!* (or past in this case and she will have the Back to the future theme playing while she does it)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTGyeGgMpk8[/YOUTUBE]


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## Purpledrank (Jan 19, 2011)

"Giygas comes across the apple of enlightenment, a fruit that shows the future. Giygas learns of his inevitable defeat at the hands of Ness so he attacks Earth twenty years before this would occur in order to disprove the prophecy. "
Theses matches are with PIS and CIS off right?
In earthbound he lost his mind and couldn't properly use his universal powers and foresight that he had obtained(via having the apple).
Human emotions are the ONLY thing that have been shown to  beat giygas.

Also what bern did was create an alternate timeline or a parallel universe.
 (what it sounds like from what you are saying) That giygas she has to kill still exists. Besides is timetravel  to the past even allowed in these matches?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 19, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> Giygas got beaten by the "power of friendship"(emotions of all humans on Earth)



Not really. Giygas was only hurt by the world's prayers, and even that wasn't enough to noticeably hinder it in any way. The game says the prayers made Giygas' defenses unstable, but what that actually means is anyone's guess since it's still completely invulnerable to everything else used against it, including it's own attacks.



> But Bernkastel is the which of endless possibilities. She can bring out an outcome where Giygas doesn't become an overwhelming mass of evil and live a happy life. She did this to Takane. Giygas hadn't shown immunity to retroactive time fuckery. That bug/insect whatever came back from 10 years of the future to warn Ness of the universe's end. Bern travels back in time and just makes so that Giygas lives a happy life with his/its adoptive mother. Case solved. The chaotic Giygas never comes to existence.



Is cosmic awareness part of Bernkastel's power set? She would need extensive knowledge of Giygas and it's past to do this, and it's not like she can pull it from the shattered remains of Giygas' mind. It should also be noted that Giygas is capable of time travel itself, since it attacks the Earth from prehistoric times, and that it can exist outside of time and space.


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 19, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Is cosmic awareness part of Bernkastel's power set? She would need extensive knowledge of Giygas and it's past to do this, and it's not like she can pull it from the shattered remains of Giygas' mind. It should also be noted that Giygas is capable of time travel itself, since it attacks the Earth from prehistoric times, and that it can exist outside of time and space.




I would not say she has cosmic awareness. But she has some useful abilities.

She can  enter to a universe where she can seek for memories/worlds which she uses to gain data and use it against her enemy.


I.e. In episode five. She entered to a dark universe where she manipulated "the worlds" that were in it and in matter of seconds she gained enough intel to solve a riddle and use some info against Beatrice.  And yea it was useful, considering that she was lol owning Beatrice.


Lamdadelta remarked how frightening this ability was. Because this way Bern can find with easy the weakness others.

*Edit. Lamdadelta also was surprised by the amount of info that Bernkastel found in matter of seconds.*


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 19, 2011)

MichaelUN89 said:


> I would not say she has cosmic awareness. But she has some useful abilities.
> 
> She can  enter to a universe where she can seek for memories/worlds which she uses to gain data and use it against her enemy.
> 
> ...



This sounds a little too vague to be any kind of guaranteed victory tactic. If we don't know the mechanics behind it or it's limitations, how do we know it'll work against Giygas?


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## Endless Mike (Jan 19, 2011)

If he exists outside of time then he's acausal and retrotemporal attacks won't work on him


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## willyvereb (Jan 19, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> This sounds a little too vague to be any kind of guaranteed victory tactic. If we don't know the mechanics behind it or it's limitations, how do we know it'll work against Giygas?


It essentially works by Bernkastel experiencing each and every possible outcomes and gains invaluable information. If she's a little smarter that includes instances of randomly visiting timelines and searching for Giygas' weakness.
I don't know her rate though she can attain all this.


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## Purpledrank (Jan 19, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> It essentially works by Bernkastel experiencing each and every possible outcomes and gains invaluable information. If she's a little smarter that includes instances of randomly visiting timelines and searching for Giygas' weakness.
> I don't know her rate though she can attain all this.


She can't use his weakness it requires outside help.
One person praying won't do and I'm not sure her  praying would be sincere(just going by what has been said here).

She would be creating an alternate timeline if she messed with giygas's past anyway(unless you explain her powers even further and prove it doesn't create an alternate timeline). Not the one she was fighting in the first place.
He would still be hanging around anyway being outside of time and all.
(hey it took PIS to beat him)


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## Red (Jan 19, 2011)

I have a question. Doesn't OBD's assumption of automatic blood lust mean that "getting bored and going away" doesn't happen?


Eldritch Sukima said:


> This sounds a little too vague to be any kind of guaranteed victory tactic. If we don't know the mechanics behind it or it's limitations, how do we know it'll work against Giygas?





Eldritch Sukima said:


> Is cosmic awareness part of Bernkastel's power set?


No, but she can look it up. For example she needed info on the epitaph so she called out all the worlds with clues as to where they were:


*Spoiler*: __ 






> I'll grab a Fragment for solving the riddle of the epitaph.
> 
> Bernkastel opened both of her hands.
> 
> ...







She's boasted of traveling through billion worlds to "help" Ange find a world she'd be happy in. In the case of Yasu Bernkestal searched 2 million worlds for one where Yasu isn't abandoned, dies etc.







It may take time, but hey its not like any of them are going anywhere.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 19, 2011)

If she has to search manually it's probably a non-factor in regards to the fight. We'd have to assume that Earthbound's universe exists in whatever cosmos the battle takes place in, and it could take her an infinite amount of time to learn what she needs to know depending on other factors. A lot of things could go wrong during this time, too, like Giygas destroying the universes she needs to gather clues from, or destroying her own universe of origin at a point in time that results in her ceasing to exist, unless she is immune to temporal shenanigans herself.

And even if she's able to find out Giygas' origins and kill it's past self through time travel, the question of whether it would even work remains unanswered. For starters, this would only result in a victory if it directly affected the Giygas she was fighting. If it simply resulted in a branching timeline she'd be back to square one. The other thing that makes the idea questionable is the fact that Giygas can functionally normally outside the flow of time. Why would changes to the timeline matter when Giygas is no longer anchored to it?


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## Red (Jan 19, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> If she has to search manually it's probably a non-factor in regards to the fight. We'd have to assume that Earthbound's universe exists in whatever cosmos the battle takes place in, and it could take her an infinite amount of time to learn what she needs to know depending on other factors.



Remember what Micheal said about the infinite monkey theorem. That wasn't an exaggeration. It may take a long time, but we're dealing with Gods who don't care for the concept of time.







> A lot of things could go wrong during this time, too, like Giygas destroying the universes she needs to gather clues from, or destroying her own universe of origin at a point in time that results in her ceasing to exist, unless she is immune to temporal shenanigans herself.


Unless Giygas can destroy the entire timeline of his universe, not just the universe itself, destroying his universe won't be effective since Bernkestal can just travel back before his universe met its destruction by his hand.

Destroying Bernkestal's universe is out of the question. For starters Giygas has to also find out its "location" and if what you tell me about Giygas is true (Mindless abstract concept of evil) it won't have the rational to do such a slow methodical search.

Secondly Bernkestal doesn't have a single origin, Bernkestal is the sum total of her mortal pieces/selves deaths from an unspecified amount of different universes. Unless Giygas can  find those thousands of other repetitions/universes (in an infinite multiverse) as well then that's not plausible. 



> And even if she's able to find out Giygas' origins and kill it's past self through time travel, the question of whether it would even work remains unanswered. For starters, this would only result in a victory if it directly affected the Giygas she was fighting. If it simply resulted in a branching timeline she'd be back to square one. *The other thing that makes the idea questionable is the fact that Giygas can functionally normally outside the flow of time*. Why would changes to the timeline matter when Giygas is no longer anchored to it?


If that's the case then its a draw.


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## Purpledrank (Jan 19, 2011)

Red said:


> Remember what Micheal said about the infinite monkey theorem. That wasn't an exaggeration. It may take a long time, but we're dealing with Gods who don't care for the concept of time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



WE could always tiebreak by votes.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 19, 2011)

Decide by votes instead of actual debate and evidence?


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## Purpledrank (Jan 19, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Decide by votes instead of actual debate and evidence?



The evidence has already been presented.
Unless Bernkastel is in a ongoing series I don't see the point in keeping a draw.
These are imaginary fights it doesn't matter who wins especially when it's agreed to be a draw.

People often decide by votes instead of evidence here.
I don't see why you would be so concerned "Mike".


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## Endless Mike (Jan 19, 2011)

Because this isn't a fucking popularity contest


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## Purpledrank (Jan 19, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Because this isn't a fucking popularity contest



Never said it was "Mike" 
Sorry I offended you by suggesting something instead of there being a draw for eternity.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 19, 2011)

A draw is better than arbitrarily deciding a winner based on nothing other than votes


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## Purpledrank (Jan 19, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> A draw is better than arbitrarily deciding a winner based on nothing other than votes



Yet people do it all the time "Mike"
I expect you to get on other peoples cases in the future if this is how you feel about it "Mike"


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## Endless Mike (Jan 19, 2011)

What's with the fucking quotation marks? The OBD is based on evidence and logic, not votes


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 20, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> If she has to search manually it's probably a non-factor in regards to the fight. We'd have to assume that Earthbound's universe exists in whatever cosmos the battle takes place in, *and it could take her an infinite amount of time to learn what she needs to know depending on other factors. *A lot of things could go wrong during this time, too, like Giygas destroying the universes she needs to gather clues from, or destroying her own universe of origin at a point in time that results in her ceasing to exist, unless she is immune to temporal shenanigans herself.



Well  do you remember when I told you that Lamdadelta remarked how fast Bernkastel found the intel that she needed? 

IIRC  Bernkastel in matter of seconds she found hundreds of fragments related to what she was looking for. 

I do not remember the number tbh, but Lamdadelta was astonished and found Bern's feat very impressive. So impressive that it was even frightening or at least that is what she said.

*It does not matter if it takes her infinite amount of time. That is "Why she is the witch Miracles". While the odds  are not  absolute zero, she is going to try as many times, even if it means taking an eternity till she has success.   *

Bernkastel is not going to search for clues in other universes.


Bernkastel as a voyager witch  she can timetravel and travel to other universes .  During the third game In less than one day she found "the ideal piece" who was Ange Ushiromiya . A piece that was hidden in the endless sea of kakeras. And she found Ange just in time to save Battler from his doom. 

However she can also enter into this "dark universe" where she is free to find fragments of other worlds.  This fragments supposedly contain "memories". They are like "ghosts" lost in the sea of kakeras. 

In this case Bernkastel found the "lost memories of Eva Ushiromiya" Despite that Eva  from the third game was already death, Bernkastel was able to find the memories of said Eva in this universe that she controlled.

Actually  the witches and specially the voyagers are free from that "weakness".
In Umineko  destroying a witch is not an easy task  I.E.  At the end of the first game Bern told to Battler that in order to kill Beatrice  he had to destroy Beato's core/heart. It was explained that this required a "conceptual level of destruction".
In fact... Dlanor the Chief Inquisitor of Eiserne Jungfrau, is a feared witch hunter  mainly because she holds a sword  that deals conceptual damage.
After all  Battler's main goal in Umineko is  "to deny  the existence of Beatrice".
Lamdadelta could as well just time travel and destroy the universe where Bernkastel originated.  But this is would be pretty much useless, since  they are voyagers because  "they were capable of abandoning their original universe".  It would take some  hax to kill the bitches for good.

i.e
The original form of Bernkastel,  Rika has died  several times  in "Higurashi no Naku Koro ni" and yet that does not  represent a problem to Bernkastel... since Bernkastel is no longer Rika.


*Spoiler*: __ 








^As you can see  killing "Rika" the  "original" form of Bernkastel  is not going to have consequence in Bernkastel's  existence. 




-------------

IMO this is just a draw. Since  they can not kill each other.


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## Purpledrank (Jan 20, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> What's with the fucking quotation marks? The OBD is based on evidence and logic, not votes



I know what the OBD is based on "Mike", but not everyone follows those rules.
The quotation marks are there to make you wonder why "Mike"


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## willyvereb (Jan 20, 2011)

^Or just because you're trying to annoy people again...


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 20, 2011)

Red said:


> Unless Giygas can destroy the entire timeline of his universe, not just the universe itself, destroying his universe won't be effective since Bernkestal can just travel back before his universe met its destruction by his hand.



It wouldn't have to destroy the entire timeline of it's universe, only a point before it existed as a mortal being. If it destroys the universe before that point it's past existence is nullified and Bernkastel has no way of meddling with it.



> Destroying Bernkestal's universe is out of the question. For starters Giygas has to also find out its "location" and if what you tell me about Giygas is true (Mindless abstract concept of evil) it won't have the rational to do such a slow methodical search.



You act as if this universal destruction would be intentional. The fact that Giygas is a mindless destroyer is exactly why it might end up destroying her universe. It wouldn't be part of any kind of strategy, Giygas would destroy it just because it exists. If Bernkastel runs away to another universe/timeline Giygas will be left to it's own devices, and when that happens it'll just mindlessly destroy everything around it until nothing is left. Granted, destroying an infinite multiverse would take an infinite amount of time, but as you've already said, time is meaningless to these two.

Also, Giygas is only mindless outside of the Devil's Machine. The Devil's Machine restricts it's power enough to keep it's mind intact, though common sense indicates that it busted the universe while in this restricted state. Since the Devil's Machine is standard equipment I'd assume Giygas would start inside it for this match, so it would indeed be capable of rational thought for as long as it took Bernkastel to break the machine, assuming she can.



> Secondly Bernkestal doesn't have a single origin, Bernkestal is the sum total of her mortal pieces/selves deaths from an unspecified amount of different universes. Unless Giygas can  find those thousands of other repetitions/universes (in an infinite multiverse) as well then that's not plausible.



I fail to see why Giygas' chances of success would be any lower than Bernkastel's. She has absolutely nothing to go on and has to find a particular point in time in a particular universe out of an infinite number of them. Giygas also has nothing to go on, and has to nuke a handful of universes out of an infinite amount. In both cases the odds of success are infinitely small, and who accomplishes their goal first is completely up to chance.


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## Red (Jan 21, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> It wouldn't have to destroy the entire timeline of it's universe, only a point before it existed as a mortal being. If it destroys the universe before that point it's past existence is nullified and Bernkastel has no way of meddling with it.


If what you're saying is how I understand it, then you're saying it'll kill itself before Bernkestal could go back and kill it. Can Giygas survive with its origin wiped out? 



> You act as if this universal destruction would be intentional. The fact that Giygas is a mindless destroyer is exactly why it might end up destroying her universe. It wouldn't be part of any kind of strategy, Giygas would destroy it just because it exists. If Bernkastel runs away to another universe/timeline Giygas will be left to it's own devices, and when that happens it'll just mindlessly destroy everything around it until nothing is left. Granted, destroying an infinite multiverse would take an infinite amount of time, but as you've already said, time is meaningless to these two.


You act like the battle takes place in its own universe and not the dome. Since the battle takes place in the dome its universe would be out of reach of any collateral damage unless Giygas seeks it out itself.  



> Also, Giygas is only mindless outside of the Devil's Machine. The Devil's Machine restricts it's power enough to keep it's mind intact, though common sense indicates that it busted the universe while in this restricted state. Since the Devil's Machine is standard equipment I'd assume Giygas would start inside it for this match, so it would indeed be capable of rational thought for as long as it took Bernkastel to break the machine, assuming she can.


If the devil's machine is standard equipment and on Giygas's person, whats stopping it from being broken in the heat of battle? Bernkestal throws a couple big bangs and then its broken and bam he's mindless embodiment of everything Bern enjoys.



> I fail to see why Giygas' chances of success would be any lower than Bernkastel's. She has absolutely nothing to go on and has to find a particular point in time in a particular universe out of an infinite number of them. Giygas also has nothing to go on, and has to nuke a handful of universes out of an infinite amount. In both cases the odds of success are infinitely small, and who accomplishes their goal first is completely up to chance.


Either way its moot point, Bern can think herself out of nonexistence.

I also remembered this. Blue/Red weapons are conceptual weapons that destroys a person's existence. Bernkestal wields a massive blue scythe. Can Giygas unthink itself from having its existence attacked?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 21, 2011)

Red said:


> If what you're saying is how I understand it, then you're saying it'll kill itself before Bernkestal could go back and kill it. Can Giygas survive with its origin wiped out?



This question takes us back to the fact that Giygas can exist independently of time itself. Would altering a timeline Giygas is no longer bound to affect it in any way?



> You act like the battle takes place in its own universe and not the dome. Since the battle takes place in the dome its universe would be out of reach of any collateral damage unless Giygas seeks it out itself.



Giygas would be bloodlusted by default. If Bernkastel flees I'm not seeing any reason why it wouldn't pursue her to the best of it's ability. Of course, without cosmic senses or the ability to think rationally, Giygas would simply destroy everything. If it can't track Bernkastel down effectively, the next best thing is just obliterating everything until there's nowhere left for her to run. Whether Giygas could grasp a concept this simple is debatable, but it really makes no difference since Giygas is a mindless destroyer anyway. Unless we assume Giygas will do nothing but ramble to itself after Bernkastel vanishes, introducing an infinite multiverse puts it all at risk.



> If the devil's machine is standard equipment and on Giygas's person, whats stopping it from being broken in the heat of battle? Bernkestal throws a couple big bangs and then its broken and bam he's mindless embodiment of everything Bern enjoys.



Nothing stops that, if Bern is capable of it. I said 'assuming she can' because the machine's durability is a complete mystery. You can't even hit it in the final battle, since Giygas reflects everything used on the Devil's Machine back at the party. Whether the machine is broken or not has no significant effect on this match, though.



> Either way its moot point, Bern can think herself out of nonexistence.



If she's impossible to kill and can't do anything to beat Giygas we end up with a stalemate. Again.



> I also remembered this. Blue/Red weapons are conceptual weapons that destroys a person's existence. Bernkestal wields a massive blue scythe. Can Giygas unthink itself from having its existence attacked?



Giygas is evil itself. If her scythe can destroy evil I guess she could kill Giygas with it. Then again, Bernkastel herself is evil, so depending on how deeply rooted Giygas's existence is she might not be able to kill it unless she kills herself as well, along with every other evil being.


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## Battoumaru (Jan 21, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> This question takes us back to the fact that Giygas can exist independently of time itself. Would altering a timeline Giygas is no longer bound to affect it in any way?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This. If anything, Bernkastel, and all of existence are screwed the moment she does break/manage to deactivate the Devil Machine.


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## Emerald Chaos (Jan 21, 2011)

If Giygas was capable of acting independantly of time, wouldn't he have done so as means of entirely stopping Ness and co.?

Just throwing that out there...


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## Lucifeller (Jan 21, 2011)

Red said:


> I can honestly see Bern unleashing Giygas unto different universes for shits and giggles then sitting back with popcorn. So I see this as a draw where they win, we all lose.




Giygas is essentially Azathoth, which means manipulating it is pretty much impossible because it's too stupid to understand what you want it to do. Best case scenario it wouldn't even notice Bernkastel, worst case it'd frustrate her because it makes sheep look like Reed Richards. Either way she'd have very little, if any, fun.

I wonder if Bern is familiar with the concept of frustration? 



> If Giygas was capable of acting independantly of time, wouldn't he have done so as means of entirely stopping Ness and co.?
> 
> Just throwing that out there...



See above - Giygas IS perfectly capable of acting independently of time, it's just TOO STUPID to do so. There's a reason why Pokey calls it an 'all powerful idiot'. The fact it's also criminally insane doesn't help.


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## ~Greed~ (Jan 21, 2011)

No matter who the winner is, Bern sure as hell isn't going to be bored.


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## Red (Jan 21, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> This question takes us back to the fact that Giygas can exist independently of time itself. Would altering a timeline Giygas is no longer bound to affect it in any way?


 I don't know enough about Giygas to argue that point.



> Giygas would be bloodlusted by default. If Bernkastel flees I'm not seeing any reason why it wouldn't pursue her to the best of it's ability. Of course, without cosmic senses or the ability to think rationally, Giygas would simply destroy everything. If it can't track Bernkastel down effectively, the next best thing is just obliterating everything until there's nowhere left for her to run. Whether Giygas could grasp a concept this simple is debatable, but it really makes no difference since Giygas is a mindless destroyer anyway. Unless we assume Giygas will do nothing but ramble to itself after Bernkastel vanishes, introducing an infinite multiverse puts it all at risk.


Destroying everything and hoping to hit Bernkestal's universe in the process isn't plausible. The multiverse is infinitely huge, for a universal level threat (who I assume can only destroy a single universe per attack) it's going to take a lot of luck and time if he's going to just blindly attack everything and hope it hits.


> Nothing stops that, if Bern is capable of it. I said 'assuming she can' because the machine's durability is a complete mystery. You can't even hit it in the final battle, since Giygas reflects everything used on the Devil's Machine back at the party. Whether the machine is broken or not has no significant effect on this match, though.


That's another moot point unless the reflected attacks were universe destroying attacks. Destroying the devil's machine will stop Giygas from using its power as effectively as it should. While in the short run that may seem insignificant in the long run (the infinite time span these monsters can go at each other) any factor that can effect the probability of a win or loss becomes significant.




> Giygas is evil itself. If her scythe can destroy evil I guess she could kill Giygas with it. Then again, Bernkastel herself is evil, so depending on how deeply rooted Giygas's existence is she might not be able to kill it unless she kills herself as well, along with every other evil being.


Bernkestal's  scythe can destroy concepts on a local level (what it strikes), Giygas is all the evil of HIS world conveniently condensed into a single entity. Since Giygas is all the evils of HIS world and is set in a single spot it has nothing to do with the negative emotions or factors that made Bern in her multiverse. Killing Giygas's concept of evil won't kill of Bernkestal.


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## KaiserWombat (Jan 21, 2011)

Giygas is just going to moan BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE HELP MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE until she gives up

Giygas is the almighty annoyance


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## Weather (Jan 21, 2011)

> Giygas is just going to moan BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE BERNIE HELP MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE until she gives up



She laughs at that with a cup of tea of 200 yen a package.


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## Lucifeller (Jan 21, 2011)

> Bernkestal's scythe can destroy concepts on a local level (what it strikes), Giygas is all the evil of HIS world conveniently condensed into a single entity. Since Giygas is all the evils of HIS world and is set in a single spot it has nothing to do with the negative emotions or factors that made Bern in her multiverse. Killing Giygas's concept of evil won't kill of Bernkestal.



Er... did you miss the part where Giygas doesn't even exist on the same plane of existence as Ness and friends anymore? It's explicitly stated to simply be concentrated evil sitting outside time and space, which is why Ness and company need the robot bodies to face it - the location it's in ceased to be affected by the rules of their world, and they'd die more or less instantly if they went there with their actual bodies - Pokey is fine because he's in the Absolutely Safe Capsule, not because the place isn't lethal.

Basically, Giygas spans beyond a single universe, and draws evil from all that exists everywhere, ie, the whole multiverse. It quite literally takes Paula begging the Almighty himself to smite it to defeat it. Nothing else worked, and Ness at that point possessed the combined PSI power of the entire Mother universe. It still wasn't enough.

It's the whole point of 'You cannot grasp the true form of Giygas's attack!'. Giygas has long since ascended to a different state of being that makes its very nature multiversal, and human minds, limited by their perception of their own universe, can't understand at all what it is doing.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Jan 21, 2011)

Weather said:


> She laughs at that with a cup of tea of 200 yen a package.



She still cannot grasp the true form of Giygas's attack


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## Red (Jan 21, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> Er... did you miss the part where Giygas doesn't even exist on the same plane of existence as Ness and friends anymore? It's explicitly stated to simply be concentrated evil sitting outside time and space, which is why Ness and company need the robot bodies to face it - the location it's in ceased to be affected by the rules of their world, and they'd die more or less instantly if they went there with their actual bodies - Pokey is fine because he's in the Absolutely Safe Capsule, not because the place isn't lethal.


 Bernkestal is a transdimensional traveler so this is an irrelevant point.



> Basically, Giygas spans beyond a single universe, and draws evil from all that exists everywhere, ie, the whole multiverse.


Is Giygas an "" of all evils or not? The nature of an "embodiment" of something is having a concrete form. If it has a form it makes it that much easier to be attacked by an existence nullifying attack.




> It quite literally takes Paula begging the Almighty himself to smite it to defeat it. Nothing else worked, and *Ness at that point possessed the combined PSI power of the entire Mother universe.* It still wasn't enough.


Be more specific, were they hitting Giygas with universal level physical attacks to destroy its physical body? Were they hitting it with conceptual attacks to destroy its abstract self? Either way both basis are covered, if rapid fire universe destroying attacks don't kill its physical self, then rapid fire conceptual attacks should.



> It's the whole point of 'You cannot grasp the true form of Giygas's attack!'. Giygas has long since ascended to a different state of being that makes its very nature multiversal, and human minds, limited by their perception of their own universe, can't understand at all what it is doing.


Another irrelevant point for this match. Bernkestal exists on a higher ontological and dimensional plane. Since she can freely manipulate fifth dimensional objects and move about in the fifth dimension (probability space) she should be at least a sixth dimensional being.


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## Lucifeller (Jan 22, 2011)

> Is Giygas an "embodiment" of all evils or not? The nature of an "embodiment" of something is having a concrete form. If it has a form it makes it that much easier to be attacked by an existence nullifying attack.



Well, in that case, the best way to describe Giygas is as a mass of pure, shapeless evil, because it's quite explicitly mentioned to not have a form that can be grasped by humans. Ness and friends can barely perceive its presence with their limited mortal senses, and the game pretty much states that Giygas's true form is far, far, far beyond anything that could be seen in the human universe. It's something so fundamentally WRONG that mortal minds more or less say "Fuck this, there's no way I'm breaking myself trying to make sense of this otherworldly abomination. I'm taking a break!".

About the only reason why Giygas could be even perceived at all (given how it doesn't even have a proper body at all - it can only be 'seen', and I use the word very loosely, as a swirling... THING... of incomprehensible hate and madness) was probably because some tiny part of it still remembered its feelings for its human mother - which is something that gives it just enough of a vague connection to the human world to make a small amount of sense to an observing human.



> Be more specific, were they hitting Giygas with universal level physical attacks to destroy its physical body? Were they hitting it with conceptual attacks to destroy its abstract self? Either way both basis are covered, if rapid fire universe destroying attacks don't kill its physical self, then rapid fire conceptual attacks should.



Neither worked. Physical attacks literally did nothing because there was nothing to actually HIT, and PSI attacks, which are basically using your thoughts and imagination as weapons (rather than mindrape - it's more psionics than psychic) and thus very much fall under conceptual attacks, also were completely worthless.

As mentioned, the only thing that worked was asking God to smite it with repeated prayers. Meanwhile, literally the only thing Ness's party could do was endure and hope they didn't all die before God answered and laid the smackdown on it.

Of course, the irony is that the one who answered the prayer was really you, the player... because to the protagonists of a video game, what is more omnipotent than the guy who literally decides how they live and die, who gets saved, and why? :ho

Essentially, Giygas was finally beaten by The One Above All, in Marvel terms.


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## Battoumaru (Jan 22, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> Well, in that case, the best way to describe Giygas is as a mass of pure, shapeless evil, because it's quite explicitly mentioned to not have a form that can be grasped by humans. Ness and friends can barely perceive its presence with their limited mortal senses, and the game pretty much states that Giygas's true form is far, far, far beyond anything that could be seen in the human universe. It's something so fundamentally WRONG that mortal minds more or less say "Fuck this, there's no way I'm breaking myself trying to make sense of this otherworldly abomination. I'm taking a break!".
> 
> *About the only reason why Giygas could be even perceived at all (given how it doesn't even have a proper body at all - it can only be 'seen', and I use the word very loosely, as a swirling... THING... of incomprehensible hate and madness) was probably because some tiny part of it still remembered its feelings for its human mother* - which is something that gives it just enough of a vague connection to the human world to make a small amount of sense to an observing human.
> 
> ...



Quick Trivia: 

Look closer at Giygas' first form after being released by Porky.

If you look at it upside down, you can still see the head of his Mewtwo-like (Gyiyg/Giegue) form from Mother twisted in agony, rather than the simple demonic screaming face most people see.

Another Thing: 

It was never explicitly stated that Porky was in the Asolutely Safe Capsule until Mother 3. If anything, "Heavily Armed Pokey" as the English Dub of EarthBound calls him, is just Porky in a semi-organic Spider Mech.

On Topic: 

Giygas is indeed nigh invulnerable. And his attacks take qualities of PSI that were never meant to mix (ie: PK Freeze that affects the whole party when it should only affect just one.) to form what the Mother Wiki calls "Patchwork PSI". These abilities are so inherently advanced/unnatural that their true form cannot be grasped by anything other than perhaps Giygas itself... And maybe Pokey, thanks to time travel totally ruining his body and raping his mind.





> ■It could be possible that Giygas' race had the ability to mix and match different PSI attacks to form 'patchwork' PSI. As these special PSI are made up of different PSI, it is impossible to see what the PSI was supposed to be like. One example is when Giygas used a multiple PSI Freeze attack on Ness' party, even though PSI Freeze is meant to target only one target.


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## TheFoolofSpades (Sep 11, 2013)

*A powerful ability you're forgetting*

Well, porky said that giygas was an unthinking being, I don't know about earthbound, and feel free to dismiss me as an Umineko nut, but here's something to remember Beatrice is a multiversal being as well, she is a concept, and she was on the verge of dying because the basis of the concept was denied. It was proven that it was a human that committed the Rokkenjima murders and not a "witch." 

All witches have the ability to create pieces, furniture and summons. By Umineko logic, if a conceptual being's creator denies them, they cease to exist. Sakutaro was denied by rosa, sakutaro couldn't be fixed by anyone other than the witch of ressurection "Ange." Who's magic is a violation of the law of denial. 

Unlike other witches Bernkastel can create a piece almost instaneously, and grant them titles such as Witch of Truth, Erika Furudo, an intellectual rapist jerk sue piece, she's even used this power in the game before. Raised Ange as a piece for her lifetime, specifically to improve a situation, then killed her on the gameboard, when she tired of her. 

My point is because Bernkastel is really fucking smart on many levels, and Giygas is unthinking destroying machine, couldn't Bernkastel just pinpoint Giygases weakness, create a piece to destroy him, targetting his weaknesses specifcally, or even I don't know use the magic of miracles?

As long as her chances of winning are not zero. Bernkastel can create a scenario in which "Giygas" loses, he may not "die." but he can lose. Afterall, she found a kakera where lambdadelta lost and she can "kill" anyone with certainty. 

Lambdadelta lost only in one previous instance, and in this instance it was against A witch with the power of a writer. Basically, I'm going to stop the plot and rewrite it this way. She can even use this on reality. so she couldn't use this power. 

Also, Bernkastel is a really fucking good manipulator. Hell even the audience of the show thought she was a good guy until she kept kicking the dead dog, Beatrice. 

So what I'm saying is deal conceptual damage, or make/find a piece that can do so to deny Gigyas's existence. Manipulate them into doing her bidding and Bernkastel wins. Also Bernkastel is a cat. Meow.  

Also she could you know get his originator to deny him, if we're going by umineko logic. Also, there's three if not more Berkastels, Bernkastel from Higurashi, Bernkastel from Umineko and Rika Furude. Bernkastel went back to interfere in the world of Higuarshi, killing Rika the human does nothing, Berkastel of Umineko branched off of Bernkastel from Higurashi. Since "the two are not the same person" but "related." even if this was unconscious, I don't think there's a problem with her doing this again and again and again. But even if we're going only by Umineko "Bernkastel." she could probably just summon a piece to destroy Giygas's existence in one of the infinite kakera. Unless, Giygas can god mod like Featherine, which by how he was defeated in earth bound, he can't. 

Essentially thinking versus. "unthinking" thinking, always wins. I'm just wondering why this is a problem since Umineko no naku koro ni is basically a place where even pieces can kill off "conceptual beings" and they do so to survive. 




Bernkastel has the power of miracles. Unless you could find a counter-argument to make her chances of winning zero percent. She wins hands down.


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## KaiserWombat (Sep 11, 2013)

This thread's last post is well over a year old.

Necromancy of a thread past even two-three weeks is grounds for an immediate lock, so this is absolutely being closed: just a reminder for the near future.


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## willyvereb (Sep 11, 2013)

Yeah, in cases like this it's generally better to create a whole new thread.

As usual with VS debates, the status quo can change.
People in this thread were debating based on old information.
It's like a minor time travel.
That's why it's advised to create a new thread based on the characters' new estimation of power.


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