# The Kimimaro Saga: Kimimaro Can Beat Every Low Kage



## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Simply put I’m here to say Kimimaro at least has a chance to beat every Low-Kage in the verse under nuetral conditions; and in many cases a good chance. If you disagree please state which Low-Kage character you think Kimi can’t beat; and I will tell you why your wrong.

Conditions
Location: Where Rock Lee fought Kimi
Distance 10m
Knowledge: Manga


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 2, 2019)

Hiashi gives him the pokes

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Kakashi~ (Mar 2, 2019)

Dude out here struggling against genin Lee who hadn't fought since his surgery and can't even access all the gates and SRA Gaara and we got a thread talking about him fighting kage level ninja.

Reactions: Like 19


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 2, 2019)

Rasa


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## Kisame (Mar 2, 2019)

Why would Kishimoto pit him against injured Genins if he was Kage level?

Reactions: Like 4


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## Whackshot (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Simply out I’m here to say Kimimaro at least has a chance to beat every Low-Kage in the verse under nuetral conditions; and in many cases a good chance. If you disagree please state which Low-Kage character you think Kimi can’t beat; and I will tell you why your wrong.
> 
> Conditions
> Location: Where Rock Lee fought Kimi
> ...





~Kakashi~ said:


> Dude out here struggling against genin Lee who hadn't fought since his surgery and can't even access all the gates and SRA Gaara and we got a thread talking about him fighting kage level ninja.



Used to think like you @Turrin but there's no way Kimi is stepping to Kage levels.

Gai, who was arguably not even kage level in base at the time literally no diffed Gaaras final attack with a slap, a literal backhand slap.

The same Gaara who gave Kimimaro a fight so brutal he had to amp to CS2, and even ignoring his illness he BARELY would have won with bone forest.

Yes Kimi>Gaara

But the gap is tiny

And since Jonin>>Gaara

Best case Kimi is gonna give some Jonin a good fight, bur I still think Gai and Kakashi would absolutely stomp him, and they're not kage level in their P1 forms.

Kimi is a threat to nobody but low jonins, genins etc.

And before you mention it, "post crazy" gaara isn't TIERS stronger than his crazy self (unless we're talking Shippuden), normal gaara and crazy gaara in P1 are in the same tier, at best Gaara was thinking more tactically in battles and not in a permanently BL state. That doesn't translate to being multiple tiers more powerful.


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## Grinningfox (Mar 2, 2019)

Kimi isn’t beating Rasa

Hell I don’t think he beats Asuma


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## Hardcore (Mar 2, 2019)

So according to OP

Kimmi > Hiruzen, Rasa, Darui, and Mei?

and OP is Turrin, this is not ending well

Reactions: Like 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 2, 2019)

I feel like Mei is more of a midkage


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## hbcaptain (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Simply out I’m here to say Kimimaro at least has a chance to beat every Low-Kage in the verse under nuetral conditions; and in many cases a good chance. If you disagree please state which Low-Kage character you think Kimi can’t beat; and I will tell you why your wrong.


What's your low Kage list, apparently it varies from one poster to another.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hardcore (Mar 2, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> What's your low Kage list, apparently it varies from one poster to another.



Minato, B, A3, and bijuus


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Dude out here struggling against genin Lee who hadn't fought since his surgery and can't even access all the gates and SRA Gaara and we got a thread talking about him fighting kage level ninja.


If you want to talk portrayal we can talk about Edo Kimi with partial CS holding off the entire Samurai division, mifune, and KCM Naruto clone

Or how Kabuto called him his greatest servant above himself; unbeatable; or how he stopped CS2 Juugo. All of which place him minimum low Kage

Reactions: Like 2


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## BlackHeartedImp (Mar 2, 2019)

Kimi is definitively below any kage. Him being sick isn't an excuse, if he was anywhere near kage level, he backhands the PT. 1 genin like someone like Itachi would before he dies. Gai would've dismantled Gaara and Lee and he was an elite jounin still in part I. 
Hell, Oro had his arms sealed and still managed to escape from his sannin piers.


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Whackshot said:


> Used to think like you @Turrin but there's no way Kimi is stepping to Kage levels.
> 
> Gai, who was arguably not even kage level in base at the time literally no diffed Gaaras final attack with a slap, a literal backhand slap.
> 
> ...


It wasn’t the same Gaara; Gaara was tremendously stronger in SRA then CE. So let’s start there


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> Kimi isn’t beating Rasa
> 
> Hell I don’t think he beats Asuma


How does Rasa win


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> So according to OP
> 
> Kimmi > Hiruzen, Rasa, Darui, and Mei?
> 
> and OP is Turrin, this is not ending well


Hiruzen isnt low Kage but yeah he can beat the other 3


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> What's your low Kage list, apparently it varies from one poster to another.


Mei
Mifune 
Chiyo 
Hidan
Rasa
Kakashi
Gai
Kisame 
Deidara
Konan 
Kurotsuchi
Chojuro
Darui

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Rasa


Kimi in CS2 tanked Subaku Soso with zero damage; and was covered under 200M of Sand while still being able to use Bone-Forest. So there is literally nothing Rasa can do to down Kimi, while Rasa does not have counter to Kimis Bone Forest which will allow him to attack Rasa from behind and kill him as he would have to Gaara


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## hbcaptain (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Mei
> Mifune
> Chiyo
> Hidan
> ...


Ok, I guess Kuro', Chojuro and co are adult versions, if so then this list is real close to mine in which case, I agree that Kimi' stands a chance against anyone of them giving his feats and portrayal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> Hiashi gives him the pokes


Hashi can’t damage him through his bone masks


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> Ok, I guess Kuro', Chojuro and co are adult versions, if so then this list is real close to mine in which case, I agree that Kimi' stands a chance against anyone of them giving his feats and portrayal.


No they are War version; Adult are probably Minato + level given being able to fight ootsuki

 But okay glad you agree; mind helping me answer some of these people?


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## Whackshot (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> It wasn’t the same Gaara; Gaara was tremendously stronger in SRA then CE. So let’s start there



Already addressed it, why do you do this? I see you regularly do this and I haven't been around for long, you just blatantly ignore the majority of people's posts.

If this is how you are then fk off, I'm not gonna spin my wheels with you


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Kimi is definitively below any kage. Him being sick isn't an excuse, if he was anywhere near kage level, he backhands the PT. 1 genin like someone like Itachi would before he dies. Gai would've dismantled Gaara and Lee and he was an elite jounin still in part I.
> Hell, Oro had his arms sealed and still managed to escape from his sannin piers.


We saw Onoki in Boruto struggle with Chuunin / Low Jonin because he was dying of Old-age. Kimi being days from death is a valid excuse

Kimi was in way worse condition then Itachi; and that is also Itachi. Not a fair comparison. 

If we look at Health Kimis feats he took on Mifune and the Samurai division without even going all out; took on KCM Naruto after that and still didn’t loose. Name me one character who isn’t at Least Low-Kage that can do that?

Kabuto also considered Kimi above himself; and Kabuto was a Top Jonin.

Kimi also beat Juugo in his CS form into submission; name me a Non-Kage that could easily do that consistently?


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Whackshot said:


> Already addressed it, why do you do this? I see you regularly do this and I haven't been around for long, you just blatantly ignore the majority of people's posts.
> 
> If this is how you are then fk off, I'm not gonna spin my wheels with you


Where did you address it


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## hbcaptain (Mar 2, 2019)

Shark said:


> Why would Kishimoto pit him against injured Genins if he was Kage level?


Kimi' himself is divided into 5 subrealms, each corresponding to a dance.
He doesn't even need the first dance to overwhelm a KN0 army, which is easily Jonin level, with his second dance he easily outperformed Drunken Lee who can even cause problems to Gai (ie: Databook) and SRA Gaara is easily elite Jonin/close to Kage level realms, his ninjutsu scale and power are simply insane.
Overall, he only fought oponents from low Jonin (at least) to elite Jonin/close to Kage level whilst being sick and his performance during the war further confirms his insane martial prowess.


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## Whackshot (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Where did you address it





Whackshot said:


> And before you mention it, "post crazy" gaara isn't TIERS stronger than his crazy self (unless we're talking Shippuden), normal gaara and crazy gaara in P1 are in the same tier, at best Gaara was thinking more tactically in battles and not in a permanently BL state. That doesn't translate to being multiple tiers more powerful



Now read people's posts, if you don't quit your poor etiquette then you can be the first person on my ignore list. I consider myself reasonable, but you're regularly ignoring people's valid points and just outright not addressing them. Stop it.



Turrin said:


> Kimi was in way worse condition then Itachi;



Baseless, both were equal and only being kept alive by medications and shit.
Both died earlier than they could have through combat exhaustion.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 2, 2019)

I’ll post my list on what I consider low Kage 


Alien Tier + 

Kaguya 
Hagaromo 
Naruto
Sasuke
Madara 
Jigen 


Alien Tier - 

Naruto(VOTE)
Obito(J)
Sasuke(VOTE)
Hashirama
Madara(VOTE)
Ashura 


High Kage Tier + 

Minato 
Tobirama 
Naruto(BM)
Sasuke(EMS) 
Obito(Rinnegan)


High Kage Tier - 

Nagato
Obito(Ms)
Itachi(H)
Killer Bee 
Naruto(KCM)
Danzo 


Mid Kage Tier + 

SM Naruto 
MS Sasuke 
Itachi(S) 
Jiriaya 
Orochimaru(Edo) 


Mid Kage Tier - 

Orochimaru 
Tsunade 
Hiruzen
Onoki 
Gengetsu 
Mu 
Ei(4)
Ei(3) 
Gaara(WA)
Sasori 
Kakuzu 

Low Kage 

Kakashi 
Gai 
Mei 
Rasa 
Deidara 
Hidan 
Kisame 


^^^ don’t see him beating anyone on my LK list


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## Omote (Mar 2, 2019)

I'm pretty sure if we just ignore these threads they'll go away. 


Apparently the whole translation with Kabuto admitting inferiority is wrong, and with him wondering who was stronger between Kimmimaro and Sasuke, I don't see how the hell he's Low-Kage.

The best I can give him is Jounin level since SRA Gaara has much more impressive feats, and Drunk Lee is underrated. He hoodwinked Gai after all 


But beating every Low-Kage is just insanity


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Hashi can’t damage him through his bone masks



His bones were never indicated to block or resist chakra flow.

In fact, Kimimaro's bones grow out from his normal skeletal bones, which already have chakra flowing in them. So.....why would his new bones suddenly not have chakra? 

Any protrusion or growth is simply a bew point of contact to flow in juken.


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Whackshot said:


> Now read people's posts, if you don't quit your poor etiquette then you can be the first person on my ignore list. I consider myself reasonable, but you're regularly ignoring people's valid points and just outright not addressing them. Stop it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gaara is tiers stronger though


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Omote said:


> I'm pretty sure if we just ignore these threads they'll go away.
> 
> 
> Apparently the whole translation with Kabuto admitting inferiority is wrong, and with him wondering who was stronger between Kimmimaro and Sasuke, I don't see how the hell he's Low-Kage.
> ...


Give me the raw and I’ll translate it the rest isn’t an argument and will be disregarded


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> I’ll post my list on what I consider low Kage
> 
> 
> Alien Tier +
> ...


Pick one and I’ll tell you why he beats them


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Pick one and I’ll tell you why he beats them



Treat my LK list as a gauntlet


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> His bones were never indicated to block or resist chakra flow.
> 
> In fact, Kimimaro's bones grow out from his normal skeletal bones, which already have chakra flowing in them. So.....why would his new bones suddenly not have chakra?
> 
> Any protrusion or growth is simply a bew point of contact to flow in juken.


Sure they were; they block the chakra flow of the Samurai sword; and when has Jyuuken ever worked through armor 

Kimi bloodline causes his bones to grow thicker which would make it harder to hit the Tenketsu through the thicker bone; you need to show that Haishi can close Tenketsu through tick armor


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kimi in CS2 tanked Subaku Soso with zero damage; and was covered under 200M of Sand while still being able to use Bone-Forest. So there is literally nothing Rasa can do to down Kimi, while Rasa does not have counter to Kimis Bone Forest which will allow him to attack Rasa from behind and kill him as he would have to Gaara


He lost to SRA Gaara and Rasa is stronger than that version of Gaara.


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> He lost to SRA Gaara and Rasa is stronger than that version of Gaara.


Actually he didn’t he died of illness right before he was about to kill that Gaara. So how does Rasa beat him?


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## Grinningfox (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> How does Rasa win



How does beat him?

Rasa can outlast ( assuming sick Kimi )

He can bury him 

He can block any of Kimi’s attacks with his gold dust shield

He eventually overwhelms him and traps him


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 2, 2019)

Mei beats Kimimaru as well acid Mist is one of the first things she brings out as well as lava release. She is also arguably mid Kage


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Treat my LK list as a gauntlet


1. Rasa can’t damage Kimi; Kimi will also have a hard time damaging Rasa, but at best you have an attrition war which my bet would be on Kimi considering what he accomplished inches away from death. If not a stamina contest then it’s going to be who trips the other up first; and in that regard Kimi unpredictable style has the edge by a mile. So Kimi wins or it’s an extreme diff win for Rasa

2. Hidan can’t damage him and looses eventually having his head cut off after Kimi discovers he’s immortal

3. Gai can’t damage him enough to kill him; so ether this is an 8Th Gate draw or Kimi kills Gai with his unpredictable style before then

4. Kakashi can damage Kimi outside Kamui. So it’s going to come down to if Kakashi can distract Kimi long enough to focus on Kamui snipe but with an agressive CQC fighter this will be tough; and Kakakshi could die to unpredictablity before then. Also Kakashi has zero counter to bone forest so both can kill each other 

5. Deidara nearly died to Sasuke in CQC, and Kimi healthy is even more dangerous he likely dies before he gets airborne. If he does fly Sasukes eisou at 5m reaches him; Kimi bone forest was several dozens or hundreds tall when he was near death against Gaara; since Gaara said he was sinking Kimi 200m and Kimi still bone forested his way out; and from there he can catch Deidara off guard and kill him. If this fails Deidara wins though; but Diedara is a rough match for him and I only said he can beat them not would for sure

6. Kimi uses physical attacks Kisame can’t absorb and is better at CQC then Kisame; he’s Kisames worst nightmare.


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> How does beat him?
> 
> Rasa can outlast ( assuming sick Kimi )
> 
> ...


I’m talking healthy Kimi of course; Sick looses for sure 

Where is his feats of Gold Dust shield that blocks Kimis attacks or if Kimi blindsides him with bone forest. 

Also if he grabs Kimi what good does that do he can’t kill him and Kimi can bone forest out


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Mei beats Kimimaru as well acid Mist is one of the first things she brings out as well as lava release. She is also arguably mid Kage


That largely depends on if you think acid can melt Kimi bones in CS2 or not

We honestly don’t have enough info to make that call

Kimi can also kill her with bone forest before he melts away


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> That largely depends on if you think acid can melt Kimi bones in CS2 or not
> 
> We honestly don’t have enough info to make that call
> 
> Kimi can also kill her with bone forest before he melts away


She could melt a Susanoo ribcage and even states that she can change the ph at will. Also while in his curse mark state his condition deteriorates.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 2, 2019)

I have Mei as the weakest low Kage level and she would beat Kimimaro without much trouble so I don't see how he's Kage level.


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Rasa can’t damage Kimi; Kimi will also have a hard time damaging Rasa, but at best you have an attrition war which my bet would be on Kimi considering what he accomplished inches away from death. If not a stamina contest then it’s going to be who trips the other up first; and in that regard Kimi unpredictable style has the edge by a mile. So Kimi wins or it’s an extreme diff win for Rasa
> 
> 2. Hidan can’t damage him and looses eventually having his head cut off after Kimi discovers he’s immortal
> 
> ...




1.  Rasa is SRA Gaara on roids his sand is even stronger than his Kimmimaro isn’t some speed demon I don’t see him being able to evade the large Tsunami’s of Sand 

2. Hidan is a toss up depends on knowledge 

3. He’s roided SRA Lee whom is far superior who was able to exchange blows he’s faster and hits harder in CQC horrible matchup for Kimmi 

4. Kakashi is underrated in CQC it’s just most of his matchups never really allowed it he could hang with most up close , you can’t count out Genjutsu here , then when you add in his far superior intelligence I don’t see Kimmi like a Kakuzu or a Jiraiya who has mass versatility and huge chakra levels to win the war of attrition Kimmi can hang but Kakashi should ultimately prevail 

5. It could be tough but Kimmi ain’t surviving C4 if it came down to it 

6. Agreed this is one I would favor Kimmi

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> 1.  Rasa is SRA Gaara on roids his sand is even stronger than his Kimmimaro isn’t some speed demon I don’t see him being able to evade the large Tsunami’s of Sand
> 
> 2. Hidan is a toss up depends on knowledge
> 
> ...



1-3. Come down to the fact that none of these fighters can damage Kimi in CS2

4. I said Kakashi can win with Kamui combo whether that’s with Genjutsu or Bushin, but he could also loose to bone forest or Kimi bone attacks in CQC. Do you agree with this?

5. Glad you agree


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> She could melt a Susanoo ribcage and even states that she can change the ph at will. Also while in his curse mark state his condition deteriorates.


She was melting Rib-Cage over time; Sasuke could still use Jutsu. Assuming Rib-Cage and CS2 Kimi are the same durability (Kimi has better feats then Rib-Cage so that’s a pretty low ball estimate for Kimi); that should still give Kimi enough time to use Bone Forest which Mei has not counter for winning him the match

And I’m talking about Healthy Kimi so no deteration from illness


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## hbcaptain (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> (Kimi has better feats then Rib-Cage so that’s a pretty low ball estimate for Kimi


What feats are pushing him above Ribcage Susano'o in terms of durability.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soldierofficial (Mar 2, 2019)

The Kimimaro wank is insanity, he is not Kage level, not even if we talk about Healthy Kimimaro, since Sick Kimimaro is Low Jonin level, like VOTE1 Naruto, VOTE1 Sasuke and SRA Gaara, and isnt possible that the illness will remove him so much strength, maybe Healthy Kimi is at the level of Asuma, any Low Kage is much stronger than him, is obvious that Kisame, Deidara, Kakuzu, Kakashi, Gai or Hebi Sasuke destroy this fodder.


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## hbcaptain (Mar 2, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> VOTE1 Naruto, VOTE1 Sasuke and SRA Gaara


SRA Gaara can stomp both VoTE1 Naruto and Sasuke with low difficulty. All what he needs is to create a Tsunami sand and he can OS countless fighters of their level.


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## Grinningfox (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I’m talking healthy Kimi of course; Sick looses for sure
> 
> Where is his feats of Gold Dust shield that blocks Kimis attacks or if Kimi blindsides him with bone forest.
> 
> Also if he grabs Kimi what good does that do he can’t kill him and Kimi can bone forest out



Rasa’s Gold dust is heavier and denser than Shukaku’s sand which is comparable to Kazekage Gaara’s sand which is > his  SRA incarnation by a vast amount. Kimi likely isn’t getting through Rasa’s gold dust wall

Who has Kimi blindsided of note that gives you the confidence to say that he’s blind siding a Kage level ?

Who’s to say he can’t kill him with 

And who’s to say  he can break out?


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## Santoryu (Mar 2, 2019)




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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> She was melting Rib-Cage over time; Sasuke could still use Jutsu. Assuming Rib-Cage and CS2 Kimi are the same durability (Kimi has better feats then Rib-Cage so that’s a pretty low ball estimate for Kimi);


She also said that she could change the PH to increase the acidity. One of the reasons she didn't kill him as fast as she could was because she had a bone to pick with the Uchiha's because one was responsible for the actions and death of Yagura. She was even going to finish him off if Zetsu hadn't interfered.


Turrin said:


> that should still give Kimi enough time to use Bone Forest which Mei has not counter for winning him the match
> 
> And I’m talking about Healthy Kimi so no deterioration from illness


We don't completely know how the upper limits of her acidic most. Not only that but you are arguing that Kimi is more durable than a ribcage Susanoo what are you scaling him against?


Turrin said:


> that should still give Kimi enough time to use Bone Forest which Mei has not counter for winning him the match
> 
> And I’m talking about Healthy Kimi so no deterioration from illness


What stops her from bombarding him with large scale water and lava style attacks? Also, the curse mark still deteriorates overall health after and when it's used if I'm not mistaken.


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## Mithos (Mar 2, 2019)

I think the better question should be: Which Low-Kage level fighter _couldn't _beat Kimimaro.

Reactions: Like 7


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 2, 2019)

Actual thread title - Turrin: The insanity continues (can't stop won't stop)

Reactions: Like 1


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## narut0ninjafan (Mar 2, 2019)

Kimi gets curbed by any low kage imo


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## Soldierofficial (Mar 2, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> SRA Gaara can stomp both VoTE1 Naruto and Sasuke with low difficulty. All what he needs is to create a Tsunami sand and he can OS countless fighters of their level.



SRA Gaara isnt portrayed stronger than Naruto/Sasuke, he is almost killed by Kimimaro, Kabuto said he didnt know who would be stronger between Kimimaro and Sasuke, Tsunami Sand could not defeat Sasuke, who is faster than Kimimaro and has the ability to fly.


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## Ishmael (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Mei
> Mifune
> Chiyo
> Hidan
> ...



Wtf is this...


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## hbcaptain (Mar 2, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> SRA Gaara isnt portrayed stronger than Naruto/Sasuke, he is almost killed by Kimimaro, Kabuto said he didnt know who would be stronger between Kimimaro and Sasuke,


He said that to provok him and stimulate him mentally since he was bedridden.



> Tsunami Sand could not defeat Sasuke, who is faster than Kimimaro and has the ability to fly.


Base Kimimaro is both faster AND more skilled in CQC than CS2 3T Sasuke going by both hype and feats.


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sure they were; they block the chakra flow of the Samurai sword; and when has Jyuuken ever worked through armor
> 
> Kimi bloodline causes his bones to grow thicker which would make it harder to hit the Tenketsu through the thicker bone; you need to show that Haishi can close Tenketsu through tick armor



You understand that there's different kinds of chakra flow?  

We saw the basics of this back when they learned to climb trees. Too little chakra flow did nothing, too much blew up the tree and pushed you off. So, why do you think the chakra flow necessary to make a blade is the same as the chakra flow used in juken when we've never seen a person get cut by juken.


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## Ishmael (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin on some real shit what the fuck did you come across during your break? You're good man, I like the tobirama points, didn't see the itachi points Hussain talks about. 

But...wtf you did you visit another forum and see things that made you question your knowledge or..


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## Whackshot (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Gaara is tiers stronger though



Baseless, unfounded, and not substantiated by anything stated, shown or implied in the manga.

You lose this debate


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## Soldierofficial (Mar 2, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> He said that to provok him and stimulate him mentally since he was bedridden.
> 
> Base Kimimaro is both faster AND more skilled in CQC than CS2 3T Sasuke going by both hype and feats.



Base Sasuke is faster than Base Kimimaro according to feats and portrayal, at no time have we seen Kimimaro being so fast, he only had a speed comparable to Sick Base Lee, and he himself said that the speed of Sick 1st Gate Lee was impressive, while SRA Sasuke is faster than CE Sasuke, who was already as fast as CE Lee, plus the CS2 makes Kimimaro slow down.

SRA Base Sasuke > CE Base Sasuke ~ CE Base Lee > Base Kimimaro ~ SRA Base Lee in speed.


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## hbcaptain (Mar 2, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> Base Sasuke is faster than Base Kimimaro according to feats and portrayal, at no time have we seen Kimimaro being so fast, he only had a speed comparable to Sick Base Lee, and he himself said that the speed of Sick 1st Gate Lee was impressive, while SRA Sasuke is faster than CE Sasuke, who was already as fast as CE Lee, plus the CS2 makes Kimimaro slow down.
> 
> SRA Base Sasuke > CE Base Sasuke ~ CE Base Lee > Base Kimimaro ~ SRA Base Lee in speed.


Base Kimimaro >> KN0 >> SRA Sasuke > CE Lee > SRA Lee in terms of move/striking speed.

Base Kimimaro portrayal surpasses even P1 Kabuto's.


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## Soldierofficial (Mar 2, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> Base Kimimaro >> KN0 >> SRA Sasuke > CE Lee > SRA Lee in terms of move/striking speed.
> 
> Base Kimimaro portrayal surpasses even P1 Kabuto's.



No, this is the opposite of what we've seen in the manga, Base Kimimaro and Base Lee are comparable in speed, only Kimimaro was more skilled, but Drunk Lee was superior to Kimimaro in CQC, and Drunk Lee = Base Lee in speed.

SRA KN0 Naruto >> SRA Sasuke > Kimimaro = SRA Lee in speed.

Kimimaro has no better portrayal than Kabuto, that comment comes from a bad translation.


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## hbcaptain (Mar 2, 2019)

Soldierofficial said:


> SRA KN0 Naruto >> SRA Sasuke > Kimimaro = SRA Lee in speed.


Kimimaro was soundly overwhelming KN0 army, so his speed is way above KN0, the same KN0 who was blitzing 2T SRA Sasuke in a complete one sided battle.



Soldierofficial said:


> Kimimaro has no better portrayal than Kabuto, that comment comes from a bad translation.


Then show me the right translation.


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## oiety (Mar 2, 2019)

ya'll gotta let this man rest in peace.

 Mei would vaporize him without resistance, and against Rasa he'd just wear himself out. Part 1 Gaara's sand shield was enough to stop the Clematis, and I highly doubt Rasa is getting blitzed by Bracken dance or something.


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## Ishmael (Mar 2, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Wtf is this...



The kakashi disrespect is getting out of hand @Santoryu it's time we start a revolt. Let me show you how me and the boys use to get down in the DB section.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soldierofficial (Mar 2, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> Kimimaro was soundly overwhelming KN0 army, so his speed is way above KN0, the same KN0 who was blitzing 2T SRA Sasuke in a complete one sided battle.



Yes, Base Kimimaro is much stronger than KN0 Naruto, that does not mean he is faster, SRA Base Sasuke is also much stronger than KN0 Naruto although he is slower, being able to react to someone faster does not mean you are faster, also that the clones are much weaker than the original.

SRA Sasuke/Kimimaro >> KN0 Naruto in CQC but Naruto >> Kimi/Sasuke in speed.



> Then show me the right translation.



Good Translation:

"I'm sorry... it's just that Lord Orochimaru you know... it doesn't matter who stands in his way... there is nobody who could overcome Kimimaro"

Bad Translation:

"I'm sorry... but... your greatest servant...what kind of hinderance could he face...there is nobody who can beat Kimimaro"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> You understand that there's different kinds of chakra flow?
> 
> We saw the basics of this back when they learned to climb trees. Too little chakra flow did nothing, too much blew up the tree and pushed you off. So, why do you think the chakra flow necessary to make a blade is the same as the chakra flow used in juken when we've never seen a person get cut by juken.


So again can you show when a Hyuuga has used Jyuuken through something like amor because that’s basically what Kimi creators around himself when he hardens and thickens his bones


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Wtf is this...


What’s your problem with it?


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 2, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I have Mei as the weakest low Kage level and she would beat Kimimaro without much trouble so I don't see how he's Kage level.


Man, she is underrated.


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## Ishmael (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> What’s your problem with it?



Kisame, kakashi, low kage? Tf. 

I got more issues but those are the biggest right there. What do you base your tier list off of?


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## Phenomenon (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Mei
> Mifune
> Chiyo
> Hidan
> ...


Kisame murders him I don't see why he's that low on your list.


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## Shazam (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Simply put I’m here to say Kimimaro at least has a chance to beat every Low-Kage in the verse under nuetral conditions; and in many cases a good chance. If you disagree please state which Low-Kage character you think Kimi can’t beat; and I will tell you why your wrong.
> 
> Conditions
> Location: Where Rock Lee fought Kimi
> ...



Depends on who you consider low kage 

I'll vouch for BoS Sasuke beating Kimimaro everytime.

Change my mind @Turrin


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## Kisame (Mar 2, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Depends on who you consider low kage
> 
> I'll vouch for BoS Sasuke beating Kimimaro everytime.
> 
> Change my mind @Turrin


Why do I have a feeling that Turrin will succeed?


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So again can you show when a Hyuuga has used Jyuuken through something like amor because that’s basically what Kimi creators around himself when he hardens and thickens his bones



Hinata could use Juken on Naruto under his KCM cloak.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Mei


He cannot find Mei and she can just melt him and his bones. 
Lava that was cracking Madara's Susano'o melts any bones that get to close.


Turrin said:


> Mifune


Mifune blitzes and beheads him or slices him up at the joints like a chicken.


Turrin said:


> Chiyo


Poisons him and laughs as his attacks bounce off of Mechanic Light Shield


Turrin said:


> Hidan


Scratches Kimimaro and draws a circle, then he breaks Kimimaro's heart. With a spike.


Turrin said:


> Rasa


Kimi could possibly win here. 


Turrin said:


> Kakashi


A) Genjutsu GG?
B) Kamui GG? 
C) Lightning Release: Shadow Clones and Mikabishi Spikes and choking him to death with a chain while he is stunned GG?
D) All of the above?



Turrin said:


> Gai


Gai burns his skin off with Morning Peacock. Then he gives him CTE with Afternoon Tiger.


Turrin said:


> Kisame


Kisame watches him tear apart 5 sharks like wet paper and then drowns him water dome using his underwater speed to dodge attacks until he can't sense Kimimaro's chakra anymore.


Turrin said:


> Deidara





Turrin said:


> Konan





Turrin said:


> Kurotsuchi


Is the WA one even Low Kage? I have now idea how strong the adult version is.


Turrin said:


> Chojuro


See above.


Turrin said:


> Darui


Water Encampment Wall + Black Panther GG.

Laser Circus GG.

Sacred tools GG.

I'm honestly not certain he can't blitz Kimimaro given how he dealt with Kinkaku and Ginkaku.

Boruto Darui takes a buffalo wings, beer, Tequilla and chilli shit on Kimimaro.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Mar 2, 2019)

Shark said:


> Why do I have a feeling that Turrin will succeed?



Idk, why do you?


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## Hardcore (Mar 2, 2019)

look at @Turrin requiring so far 6 threads, and direct challenges from several posters in attempts to bring him down

fear not, our hero will prevail

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisame (Mar 2, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Idk, why do you?


Just a little observation

You've made BoS Sasuke vs Kimimaro matches before where you restricted only genjutsu which means you probably think Kimi >= BoS Sasuke without genjutsu judging by how you always think the Uchihas' opponent has the upper hand in the threads you make involving them 
So now Turrin has a chance to convince you "BoS Sasuke isn't that strong" which fits with you thinking he's overrated when he's ranked above Kakashi, KN3/4 Naruto etc.



@Turrin can you do it? Can you change his mind?


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 2, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Man, she is underrated.


 "Low Kage" for me is basically "Mid Kage" for everyone else, my view of what qualifies as "Kage level" and above is higher than most based on what I've seen. So the ranking is not as bad as you think.


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## Shazam (Mar 2, 2019)

Shark said:


> Just a little observation
> 
> You've made BoS Sasuke vs Kimimaro matches before where you restricted only genjutsu which means you probably think Kimi >= BoS Sasuke without genjutsu judging by how you always think the Uchihas' opponent has the upper hand in the threads you make involving them
> So now Turrin has a chance to convince you "BoS Sasuke isn't that strong" which fits with you thinking he's overrated when he's ranked above Kakashi, KN3/4 Naruto etc.
> ...



I think you're overreacting and over extending yourself. You also managed to include your very own subjective ranking of BoS Sasuke and presented it as if it were a fact and not an opinion 


How about start off by linking said thread you are speaking of
Then elaborate on opponents of Uchiha having "upper hand" in threads I make
*As of right now you seem rather salty.*


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 2, 2019)

3 tomoe Kakashi would rape him. 

In before sharinganless Kakashi is kage level


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## Shazam (Mar 2, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> In before sharinganless Kakashi is kage level



Lmao He literally is the sixth ho*kage*....


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 2, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Lmao He literally is the sixth ho*kage*....


He probably got selected because no one else took the job. There is no other explanation.
Outliers don't break the rule.


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## Shazam (Mar 2, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He probably got selected because no one else took the job. There is no other explanation.
> Outliers don't break the rule.



Lmao What rule? 

What constitutes as "kage level", if not for the actual Kages? 

Your doubt and self labeling of outliers literally means zip


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## LostSelf (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Or how Kabuto called him his greatest servant above himself; unbeatable; or how he stopped CS2 Juugo. All of which place him minimum low Kage



Kid-Teen Juugo and Kabuto are not Kage level.

Kabuto needed soldier pills and to tire out an out of shape Kage level who's not even remotely fast in her prime and still had to use cheap tactics.


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Depends on who you consider low kage
> 
> I'll vouch for BoS Sasuke beating Kimimaro everytime.
> 
> Change my mind @Turrin


How does BOS Sasuke damage him?


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Kisame, kakashi, low kage? Tf.
> 
> I got more issues but those are the biggest right there. What do you base your tier list off of?


Okay and why is that an issue


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> You understand that there's different kinds of chakra flow?
> 
> We saw the basics of this back when they learned to climb trees. Too little chakra flow did nothing, too much blew up the tree and pushed you off. So, why do you think the chakra flow necessary to make a blade is the same as the chakra flow used in juken when we've never seen a person get cut by juken.


So again please show me Jyuuken working through armor


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## Shazam (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> How does BOS Sasuke damage him?



I'd like to see Kimi's durability against piercing attacks, first to answer this question.  

So in the meantime I'll ask you a question..

How does Kimimaro deal with Sharingan genjutsu that would lead to a follow up attack; like a raiton enhanced sword decapitation?


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> She also said that she could change the PH to increase the acidity. One of the reasons she didn't kill him as fast as she could was because she had a bone to pick with the Uchiha's because one was responsible for the actions and death of Yagura. She was even going to finish him off if Zetsu hadn't interfered.
> 
> We don't completely know how the upper limits of her acidic most. Not only that but you are arguing that Kimi is more durable than a ribcage Susanoo what are you scaling him against?
> 
> What stops her from bombarding him with large scale water and lava style attacks? Also, the curse mark still deteriorates overall health after and when it's used if I'm not mistaken.


Kimi only needs to last long enough to use Bone Forest to kill her; and Suitons would do nothing to Kimi


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> Kid-Teen Juugo and Kabuto are not Kage level.
> 
> Kabuto needed soldier pills and to tire out an out of shape Kage level who's not even remotely fast in her prime and still had to use cheap tactics.


They are Top Jonin and Kimi is higher therefore Low Kage


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I'd like to see Kimi's durability against piercing attacks, first to answer this question.
> 
> So in the meantime I'll ask you a question..
> 
> How does Kimimaro deal with Sharingan genjutsu that would lead to a follow up attack; like a raiton enhanced sword decapitation?


A single bone from Kimi blocked a chakra enhanced Samurai sword and that was kimi not even using CS more the partially way alpne CS2  Kimi. 

And he tanks it unless you can prove it damages him


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 3 tomoe Kakashi would rape him.
> 
> In before sharinganless Kakashi is kage level


He can’t damage him


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> "Low Kage" for me is basically "Mid Kage" for everyone else, my view of what qualifies as "Kage level" and above is higher than most based on what I've seen. So the ranking is not as bad as you think.


No she is Low Kage agree with you man


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2019)

AJBeckyBlissRollins said:


> Kisame murders him I don't see why he's that low on your list.


The list isn’t in order but how does Kisame murder him?


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kimi only needs to last long enough to use Bone Forest to kill her; and Suitons would do nothing to Kimi


She has three simple but extremely effective options for beating him. Overwhelm him with water style ninjutsu much like how Gaara did with sand. Kill him with her acidic mist which can cover the battlefield and be as acidic as she wishes. Or she could bathe him in massive amounts of lava. Either one of these is something that can kill him before he gets the idea of using bone forest.


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## Shazam (Mar 2, 2019)

Turrin said:


> A single bone from Kimi blocked a chakra enhanced Samurai sword and that was kimi not even using CS more the partially way alpne CS2  Kimi.
> 
> And he tanks it unless you can prove it damages him



Your reasoning for Kimi to LOL tank everything right now rests on base Kimi blocking a no-named samurai sword strike that was channeling chakra.

And you seem to think that is equivalent to nature chakra manipulation, specifically that of raiton, which adds highly to a weapons striking sharpness?

And furthermore, saying that a basic no-named samurai is equivalent AT ALL to BoS Sasuke who ALSO has CS2?

Yeah, you need to do better to change my mind

(What is being said is that Kimi, after being trapped in a genjutsu will just LOL tank a CS2 sword strike enhanced by raiton to the neck.....Because some random samurai got his shit tier attack blocked by kimi)


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## Amol (Mar 3, 2019)

2019 and I still see Kimimaro wank. 
It is like we are going backwards or something.

Reactions: Like 1


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## wooly Eullerex (Mar 3, 2019)

*low kage:* kimi beats or has 50% chance vs the *bold

sakura*
kakashi
*kisame*
deidara
konan
*gai
darui
mei
asuma
sai
kitsuchi
choji
yamato
hiashi*
gaara
rasa
hidan


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## wooly Eullerex (Mar 3, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> Hinata could use Juken on Naruto under his KCM cloak.


shit writing, yes


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## Phenomenon (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The list isn’t in order but how does Kisame murder him?


Waterdome, Daikodan etc.

He isn't going toe to toe with a guy who pushed Killer B to his limits and the idea that Kimimaro is tangling with an Akatsuki member is laughable.

His best shot is Hidan if that.


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## Azula (Mar 3, 2019)

Kimimaro is more like Baki and Pakura, unique styles but more like High Jounins.

Kabuto did not get a huge jump from Kimimaro's abilities.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soul (Mar 3, 2019)

Alright Turrin I'll bite.
How is he defeating Deidara? Do you have something post war you are including that I don't remember?
He has no range nor stamina to keep up with him. C4 is an automatic win.



Turrin said:


> If you want to talk portrayal we can talk about Edo Kimi with partial CS holding off the entire Samurai division, mifune, and KCM Naruto clone



Edo Kimi isn't Kimimaro, though. He wasn't sick.



> Or how Kabuto called him his greatest servant above himself; unbeatable; or how he stopped CS2 Juugo. All of which place him minimum low Kage



How is Juugo low Kage tier?


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## Kagutsutchi (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kimi in CS2 tanked Subaku Soso with zero damage; and was covered under 200M of Sand while still being able to use Bone-Forest. So there is literally nothing Rasa can do to down Kimi, while Rasa does not have counter to Kimis Bone Forest which will allow him to attack Rasa from behind and kill him as he would have to Gaara


Yeah. Rasa>>Gaara.

So what 200m of sand. Rasa was routinely restraining an entire bijuu(don't give me that weakest bijuu nonsense) who had the topographical advantage. 

And rasa isn't low kage at all, he(like every other kage) has his own level depending on circumstances in the battle. And against kimi, rasa is high kage.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He can’t damage him


Raikiri through the skull.


Kakashi's speed coupled with sharingan precog would also overwhelm Kimi even when using CS, so Kimi won't do shit here.
Losing to part 1 kakashi = losing to every low kage.



Shazam said:


> Lmao What rule?
> 
> What constitutes as "kage level", if not for the actual Kages?
> 
> Your doubt and self labeling of outliers literally means zip



Sure, but seeing how Kage vary in power there isn't a clear standart. So Kakashi is one of the, if not the weakest kage. He is an outlier as he probably didn't take the job because he was the strongest in the village.

In otherwords he is not a proper representetive.


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## LostSelf (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> They are Top Jonin and Kimi is higher therefore Low Kage



Beating them doesn't mean he's Low Kage. Its like saying BSM Naruto is Juubito tier because he can beat others on his level. And Kid Juugo is featless.


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> Beating them doesn't mean he's Low Kage. Its like saying BSM Naruto is Juubito tier because he can beat others on his level. And Kid Juugo is featless.


No it’s not like that because BSM Naruto didn’t solo Juubito

And P2 Juugo was still confident Kimi could stop him; that tells us he could still defeat P2 Juugo


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Raikiri through the skull.
> 
> 
> Kakashi's speed coupled with sharingan precog would also overwhelm Kimi even when using CS, so Kimi won't do shit here.
> ...


Can you provide proof that Rarikiri can pierce him


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

Kamalu said:


> Yeah. Rasa>>Gaara.
> 
> So what 200m of sand. Rasa was routinely restraining an entire bijuu(don't give me that weakest bijuu nonsense) who had the topographical advantage.
> 
> And rasa isn't low kage at all, he(like every other kage) has his own level depending on circumstances in the battle. And against kimi, rasa is high kage.


Restrain is different then kill; he doesn’t have the DC to kill Kimi. And unlike Shukaku if Rasa tries to restrain Kimi; Kimi can escape with Bone Forest


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Can you provide proof that Rarikiri can pierce him


What durability feats does he have to suggest that it can't ?
I think you need to provide the evidence here.


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## LostSelf (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No it’s not like that because BSM Naruto didn’t solo Juubito
> 
> And P2 Juugo was still confident Kimi could stop him; that tells us he could still defeat P2 Juugo



Like Suigetsu could easily stop him. 

BSM Naruto didn't solo Juubito, but he can arguably beat every other shinobi on his level. But doing that doesn't put him on Juubito's level, though.


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

Soul said:


> Alright Turrin I'll bite.
> How is he defeating Deidara? Do you have something post war you are including that I don't remember?
> He has no range nor stamina to keep up with him. C4 is an automatic win.
> 
> ...


I’m talking about Healthy Kimi.


I place Juugo around Top Jonin so Kimi being able to consistently beat him places him at least Low-Kage 

As far as the Deidara question; Deidara tends to start fights in CqC with C1; he almost didn’t survive this choice when facing Sasuke; Kimi is an even superior cqc fighter then Sasuke who can run through his C1 undetected due to bone hardening and is much more unpredictable in cqc. So Deidara dying before he gets airborne is a real possibly. 

If Diedara does get air born he will use C2 first and fly around 5m up; Kimi bone forest can extend at least 5m into the air considering it lift Kimi out of Gaaras quick sand which was designed to sink Gaara 200m. Bone Forest will ether hit Deidara by itself or it will allow Kimi to reach that height by moving along the bone and attack Deidara for the win.

I agree if Deidara gets out C3/C4 he wins though. Which is why I only said Kimi can beat this people not that he definitely will


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

AJBeckyBlissRollins said:


> Waterdome, Daikodan etc.
> 
> He isn't going toe to toe with a guy who pushed Killer B to his limits and the idea that Kimimaro is tangling with an Akatsuki member is laughable.
> 
> His best shot is Hidan if that.


Daikodan won’t do any damage; water dome is Kisames best chance to win; but he could loose before this and Kimi can also escape with Bone Forest extending past the dome and him traveling along the bones to escap. 

Also even if he lost to Water Dome; it’s pretty unfair of you to treat the idea of Kimi tangling with an Akatsuki as laughable while at the same time Kisame needs his strongest technique to win....


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What durability feats does he have to suggest that it can't ?
> .


1. He was covered by hundreds of pounds of Sand via Gaaras Sand Tsunami and that was then pressurized on top of him; and he recieved zero damage. He then got hit with Subaku Soso which he just ran through recieved no damage. He also has an enormous regeneration factor on top of this allowing him to instance regenerate from pulling his own spinal cord out.

2. If you make a claim; Rarikiri can pierce Kimi you need to provide evidence for it. My claim is that Kimi could win; if I provide evidence that Kimi has high enough durability / regen feats that it’s dubious wither Rarikiri could kill him; that’s good enough for the sake of my argument as I’m not saying he would definitely win.


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> Like Suigetsu could easily stop him.
> 
> BSM Naruto didn't solo Juubito, but he can arguably beat every other shinobi on his level. But doing that doesn't put him on Juubito's level, though.


Suigetsu didn’t easily stop completely enraged Juugo which is the one we saw against Ei

I get what your saying man but it would still be a good indicator in most situations that said character would be. If we combine that with Kimi display against the Samurai division in the war; I think it’s highly likely that he is above that level. And even in your BSM example I wouldn’t count on BSM being able to consistently be able to always defeat someone on his same tier especially if he was traveling with them and they suddenly rage hulked out


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> She has three simple but extremely effective options for beating him. Overwhelm him with water style ninjutsu much like how Gaara did with sand. Kill him with her acidic mist which can cover the battlefield and be as acidic as she wishes. Or she could bathe him in massive amounts of lava. Either one of these is something that can kill him before he gets the idea of using bone forest.


1. Gaara overwhelmed him with Sand but couldn’t kill him because he tanked everything Gaara used; what water style isn’t Kimi tanking?

2. And again where is the proof that the acidic mist will be able to melt Kimi before he can kill Mei?

3. Kimi would dodge the Lava she doesn’t have any great speed feats with it and doesn’t have large AOE ether.


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Your reasoning for Kimi to LOL tank everything right now rests on base Kimi blocking a no-named samurai sword strike that was channeling chakra.
> 
> And you seem to think that is equivalent to nature chakra manipulation, specifically that of raiton, which adds highly to a weapons striking sharpness?
> 
> ...


Well first off it is equivalent as Mifune with the same chakra flow the Samurai was using blocked Sasukes Raiton Flow Ksunagi sword.

I’m not saying the Samurai is equivalent; im saying the technique is equivalent. Maybe Sasuke can channel more chakra into his sword the the Samurai can or something with CS; I accept that argument, but Kimi defenses extend much further then a single bone in his partial CS state. So yes Kimi In CS2 should be able to casually tank Raiton Ksunagi

And no I’m not basing Kimi defenses just on the Samurai sword thing; but also on the fact that Kimi could tank with no damage in CS2 all of Gaaras attacks. This includes being buried under hundreds of pounds of Sand that was then pressurized by Gaara. He also has insane regen that allows him to heal from and survive having his own spinal cord ripped out; so even if. Chidori did minor damage to him; he’d heal from t


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Gaara overwhelmed him with Sand but couldn’t kill him because he tanked everything Gaara used; what water style isn’t Kimi tanking?
> 
> 2. And again where is the proof that the acidic mist will be able to melt Kimi before he can kill Mei?
> 
> 3. Kimi would dodge the Lava she doesn’t have any great speed feats with it and doesn’t have large AOE ether.



She caught a meteor with it in The Last. 

(inb4 Kimimaro is somehow faster than an object that moves so fast it's on fire)


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> She caught a meteor with it in The Last.
> 
> (inb4 Kimimaro is somehow faster than an object that moves so fast it's on fire)


We’re talking Shippuden.

The movies always tend to be exaggerated feats wise but if you want to take them seriously then prove Mei didn’t get stronger by the time of the Last...

If she didn’t and we take the fear seriously then Mei would be High-Kage if not on some Minato level shit with Youton moving at meteor speeds 

Unless we go off Kakashi in which apparently he cut lighting as a kid which would make all the Naruto Jonin and above lighting timers which would enable all of them to easily accomplish Meis feat including Kimi


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## Kisame (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Well first off it is equivalent as Mifune with the same chakra flow the Samurai was using blocked Sasukes Raiton Flow Ksunagi sword.
> 
> I’m not saying the Samurai is equivalent; im saying the technique is equivalent. Maybe Sasuke can channel more chakra into his sword the the Samurai can or something with CS; I accept that argument, but Kimi defenses extend much further then a single bone in his partial CS state. So yes Kimi In CS2 should be able to casually tank Raiton Ksunagi
> 
> And no I’m not basing Kimi defenses just on the Samurai sword thing; but also on the fact that Kimi could tank with no damage in CS2 all of Gaaras attacks. This includes being buried under hundreds of pounds of Sand that was then pressurized by Gaara. He also has insane regen that allows him to heal from and survive having his own spinal cord ripped out; so even if. Chidori did minor damage to him; he’d heal from t


But Sasuke's non-enhanced Katana clashed evenly with Mifune's chakra-enhanced sword.


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

Shark said:


> But Sasuke's non-enhanced Katana clashed evenly with Mifune's chakra-enhanced sword.


Nah it was enhanced


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## Kisame (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Nah it was enhanced


Yeah you're right nevermind, I always thought he wasn't streaming Raiton for some reason


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 3, 2019)

@Turrin

What suggests Kimmi's durability is beyond Raikiri, let alone Raikiri chain and Raikiri Kunai?

Kamui can be used in an instant so there is no "having to create distractions needed to charge up" needed. Did you see him doing any of that when attempting Kamui vs "Madara" in FKS? 

How does he deal with Kakashi's skills that allowed him to pull off a feint vs Deva and Asura which means he is very likely eating a Raiton clone leaving him half dead waiting to be finished off?

I do agree that Kimmi got a portrayal increase during WA, being able to fend off Samurai althought I can't remember what he did vs Naruto which might be impressive so that might change my opinion. Much better than struggling against Drunk Lee and Gaara at least.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Gaara overwhelmed him with Sand but couldn’t kill him because he tanked everything Gaara used; what water style isn’t Kimi tanking?


Water style would mainly be used to fling him across the battlefield and not give him anyway of getting close



Also the feat Ultra is talking about doesn't look exaggerated in any way.



Also, Kimmi's vision would be impaired as well.




Turrin said:


> 2. And again where is the proof that the acidic mist will be able to melt Kimi before he can kill Mei?


The mist on top of melting Sasuke's construct was doing damage to him as well.


This mist filled the area near instantly and worked near instant as well


His construct started to get flimsy the instant it was touched.



Turrin said:


> 3. Kimi would dodge the Lava she doesn’t have any great speed feats with it and doesn’t have large AOE ether.


But she does




We know she can amp up her AOE of lava to scale to her water style because she has the reserves to do so. I'm done now catwalk mei style

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No she is Low Kage agree with you man


Still, how does Kimimaro beat her? I agree her Suiton isn't doing shit to him for obvious reasons, but her Futton and Yoton should kill him without difficulty.


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## Shazam (Mar 3, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sure, but seeing how Kage vary in power there isn't a clear standart. So Kakashi is one of the, if not the weakest kage. He is an outlier as he probably didn't take the job because he was the strongest in the village.
> 
> In otherwords he is not a proper representetive.



"Kage level" is just the level of the weakest known kage, up to the strongest known kage with people independently breaking those levels down into low, mid and high.... 

And besides, what DO you know about Hokage Kakashi that makes you think he is just SO weak?


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

@SakuraLover16 

Pushing Kimi back doesn’t beat him though. 

That feat of Youton doesn’t seem that fast; Mei needed Ei to smash Madara into the Youton after all. You have to understand that Kimi is insanely fast and skilled in CQC; even when near death he had a 4.5 in the Data-Book in Base. He’s even faster in CS states when healthy. So I just don’t see any speed feats from Mei with Yonton that suggest she can hit him. The meteor one is from the Last (Mei is you and still improving there) and it’s Suiton not Youton unless I’m missing something. 

The Futton argument comes down to can Mei melt Kimi before he can cast a single Jutsu; I don’t think she can given his durability and regen factors. We are talking about someone who can rip out their own spine and immediately regenerate from it and tank Subaku Soso and Taisou with zero damage:

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Still, how does Kimimaro beat her? I agree her Suiton isn't doing shit to him for obvious reasons, but her Futton and Yoton should kill him without difficulty.


Bone Forest

She has no counter to something on this scale:


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## Shazam (Mar 3, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> @Turrin
> 
> What suggests Kimmi's durability is beyond Raikiri, let alone Raikiri chain and Raikiri Kunai?



@Turrin has disputed my claims of using BoS CS2 Sasuke's ration enhanced sword strikes (specifically to the neck after being placed under sharingan genjutsu), because of Edo Kimi using his bone to block a fodder samurai sword strike that has his chakra channeling through it...


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

Shazam said:


> @Turrin has disputed my claims of using BoS CS2 Sasuke's ration enhanced sword strikes (specifically to the neck after being placed under sharingan genjutsu), because of Edo Kimi using his bone to block a fodder samurai sword strike that has his chakra channeling through it...


That’s actually not what I said.

I said a single one of base Kimis bones blocked a chakra flow sword. So yes Sasuke is stronger then the Samurai especially with CS, but Kimi can also harden his bones far beyond that single one and has ridiculous regen factor; so why do you think Chidori Blade will work?

He also clearly fought Mifune who blocked Sasukes chidori blade with his chakra flow; so if Kimi could just be cut down by that Mifune would have easily beaten him, rather then Kimi holding off that entire division


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## Shazam (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> That’s actually not what I said.
> 
> I said a single one of base Kimis bones blocked a chakra flow sword. So yes Sasuke is stronger then the Samurai especially with CS, but Kimi can also harden his bones far beyond that single one and has ridiculous regen factor; so why do you think Chidori Blade will work?
> 
> He also clearly fought Mifune who blocked Sasukes chidori blade with his chakra flow; so if Kimi could just be cut down by that Mifune would have easily beaten him, rather then Kimi holding off that entire division



Because;


Chidori variant enhanced by Sasuke >>>> Samurai chakra channeling (unless its Mifune; the strongest amongst them by a *considerable *margin) due to feats
Sharingan genjusu can be used before Kimi ever goes into CS2 (considering Kimi has never went straight for Cs2 while BoS Sasuke used sharingan genjutsu the first moment he saw Sai)
Sasuke's CS is just as strong as Kimimaro's; therefore the CS amp is irrelevant


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. He was covered by hundreds of pounds of Sand via Gaaras Sand Tsunami and that was then pressurized on top of him; and he recieved zero damage. He then got hit with Subaku Soso which he just ran through recieved no damage. He also has an enormous regeneration factor on top of this allowing him to instance regenerate from pulling his own spinal cord out.
> 
> 2. If you make a claim; Rarikiri can pierce Kimi you need to provide evidence for it. My claim is that Kimi could win; if I provide evidence that Kimi has high enough durability / regen feats that it’s dubious wither Rarikiri could kill him; that’s good enough for the sake of my argument as I’m not saying he would definitely win.



1 - Sand Tsunami = crushing damage, not piercing. It is like saying if a sumo sits on top of you and you survive, you'll also survive a bullet to the brain.

We know that his regen is pretty insane anything bone related, but not sure how he'd manage if he gets hit directly in his vital organs like brain or the heart.

2 - It doesn't work like that. The example you provided has nothing to do with Raikiri.
You are basically saying that Kimi can withstand one of the techniques that is known to have the highest piercing damage. I'm just asking on what basis ?

edit : 



Shazam said:


> "Kage level" is just the level of the weakest known kage, up to the strongest known kage with people independently breaking those levels down into low, mid and high....


Yes and I'm saying Kakashi is an outlier, even among the weakest kage.



> And besides, what DO you know about Hokage Kakashi that makes you think he is just SO weak?



I know that Kakashi without sharingan is pretty weak and not even remotely around the vicinity of kage level.
Hell, you can make the argument that he isn't even kage level without Kamui and you wouldn't be too far off.


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## SakuraLover16 (Mar 3, 2019)

I don't even know while im still arguing


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Because;
> 
> 
> Chidori variant enhanced by Sasuke >>>> Samurai chakra channeling (unless its Mifune; the strongest amongst them by a *considerable *margin) due to feats
> ...


1. What’s your bases to claim that it’s that much greater? The same Fodder Samurai directly compare it to their own technique:

It doesn’t make sense for them to draw that comparison if Sasukes technique wasn’t Far above their own. 

2. Sharingan Genjutsu can be used to create opening assuming he lands it on Kimi; but that bring us back to than Chidori kill Kimi or not 

3. Yeah but their Jutsu and abilities are different. CS2 allows Kimi to greatly harden his bones and increase his regeneration to the point where he can easily regenerate from having his own spine ripped out. Given these two thing even if Chidori makes it through Kimi defense and does some damage still; Kimi will just immediately regenerate from this. 

On the flip side how does BOS Sasuke survive Bone Forest?


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

@Grimmjowsensei

1. Sure it’s different style of damage, but we’ve seen Kimi bone durability also translates to piercing damage as he was able to block the piercing attack of the Samurai chakra sword with his base bones

2. If you pull your spine out it’s going to do major damage to surrounding systems same thing with Kimi extending his bones allover his body during larch dance; and turns his entire body to bone during Swarabi no Mai

3. Chidori isn’t even close to one of the strongest piercing attacks in the manga. And I’m saying it’s possible he can ether tank it or his bone armor will defend him enough that he can regenerate from any damage afterwards

This isn’t that crazy ether Juugo in his CS State who has a far less regeneration factor and defense was able to survive Ei thrusting his Raiton Hand into his chest which is definitely higher leve than Chidori in offensive might as it was cracking Rib Cage Susanoo. We’ve also see a Naruto survive Chidori with regen via KN0


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## Shazam (Mar 3, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I know that Kakashi without sharingan is pretty weak and not even remotely around the vicinity of kage level.
> Hell, you can make the argument that he isn't even kage level without Kamui and you wouldn't be too far off.



So you don't actually have any feats for or against Hokage Kakashi then? And instead, you are hypothetically placing him based on the Naruto series (e_ven though Hokage Kakashi is a post-Naruto era character_) showings Kakashi has had with a sharingan, then you try to imagine that same Kakashi without the sharingan? 

This is like most people to be honest, sadly. 

Hokage Kakashi has all of his feats and portrayal inside the novels. Given your reply, you haven't read any of them. And before we start debating on whether or not the novels are canon, they are in the same sense that Boruto is considered canon. 

Inside the novel, Hokage Kakashi (or post Naruto era Kakashi without Sharingan), beat a shinobi who was later embarrassing A4 in a fight. If nothing else, the details of the passages from these fights showed us that Kakashi had dramatically improved on reaction time, speed and had developed more jutsu. 


_Post Sharingan Kakashi (Post Manga/Post War) had went head to head with Kahyo who eventually met up with Raikage. as shown below in this passage. _

"After the crash landing and prisoner roundup, the Tsuchikage, Mizukage, Kazekage, and Raikage had gone to observe the castle. The Raikage said he wanted to see Kahyo’s true power with his own eyes and had gone so far as to challenge her. According to the people there to witness the scene, not only did the Raikage’s iron fists dig out several new holes in the wall of the castle, but in a display unsuited to his age, he had even launched his Lariat. Everyone said that no ordinary ninja could fight as gracefully as Kahyo had. She dodged the Raikage’s attacks and dove at her opponent. And then, before the Raikage’s face, she snapped her fingers.

That was all. The Raikage’s beard froze. “Whawhawhat, when did you…” “Excuse me, Lord Raikage.” Kahyo smiled brightly before the Raikage’s wide-open eyes. “I’ve ruined your wonderful beard.” The contest ended with no injury to either, although Raikage did lose the beard he was so proud of and was mercilessly laughed at behind closed doors by the people of Kumogakure."


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## Ishmael (Mar 3, 2019)

Thread maker of the year seems to be Turrin so far, dude gets at least 100+replies on every thread he makes. Think one hit 200 something a couple days ago.


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> We’re talking Shippuden.
> 
> The movies always tend to be exaggerated feats wise but if you want to take them seriously then prove Mei didn’t get stronger by the time of the Last...
> 
> ...



The Last, unlike other movies, is canon. It was also written during the war arc, so Kishi was in the same state of mind and stage of ideas as he was during war arc. 

I don't have to prove she got stronger. Her feat doesn't contradict anything from the war arc, so thinking she's stronger is only a part of your argument, not a real question or concern.


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Thread maker of the year seems to be Turrin so far, dude gets at least 100+replies on every thread he makes. Think one hit 200 something a couple days ago.


It’s because my threads are about making people think critically about portrayal and feats, rather then just going off the popular opinion. When it comes to criminally underrated characters. Kabuto, Kimi, and Tobirama these are highly underrated characters in comparison to what they actually accomplished feats wise and shown abilities. Simply because people are only considering their low-end showings. 

In the case of this thread people have a preconcieved notion that no Low-Kage could “loose” to P1 Rookies no matter how sick that individual was. But the manga isn’t that clear cut. As we later see that Kimi can fight against division commander and Naruto clone competively and subdue Juugo a feat well above any Jonin.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> The Last, unlike other movies, is canon. It was also written during the war arc, so Kishi was in the same state of mind and stage of ideas as he was during war arc.
> 
> I don't have to prove she got stronger. Her feat doesn't contradict anything from the war arc, so thinking she's stronger is only a part of your argument, not a real question or concern.


Okay so if her Youton is the same speed as Shippuden then Kimi dodges it as even Karin was able to react to it

And no that’s absolutely not true we saw characters get stronger from Shippuden to the The Last. It’s absolutely on you to show Mei didn’t improve, especially since she is showing a much higher end feat then in the War; otherwise when we get Suiton at meteor speed; well unless we go off Madara meteor which everyone and their mom reacted too


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## Ishmael (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> It’s because my threads are about making people think critically about portrayal and feats, rather then just going off the popular opinion. When it comes to criminally underrated characters. Kabuto, Kimi, and Tobirama these are highly underrated characters in comparison to what they actually accomplished feats wise and shown abilities. Simply because people are only considering their low-end showings.
> 
> In the case of this thread people have a preconcieved notion that no Low-Kage could “loose” to P1 Rookies no matter how sick that individual was. But the manga isn’t that clear cut. As we later see that Kimi can fight against division commander and Naruto clone competively and subdue Juugo a feat well above any Jonin.



I've noticed, they're different, I enjoy them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 3, 2019)

Also, as you were shown, the travel time for her lava was incredibly short when following up after A4's lateral chop.


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Okay so if her Youton is the same speed as Shippuden then Kimi dodges it as even Karin was able to react to it
> 
> And no that’s absolutely not true we saw characters get stronger from Shippuden to the The Last. It’s absolutely on you to show Mei didn’t improve, especially since she is showing a much higher end feat then in the War; otherwise when we get Suiton at meteor speed; well unless we go off Madara meteor which everyone and their mom reacted too



Karin is an extremely high level sensor while Sasuke has Sharingan.......


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> 
> 1. Sure it’s different style of damage, but we’ve seen Kimi bone durability also translates to piercing damage as he was able to block the piercing attack of the Samurai chakra sword with his base bones
> 
> ...



1 - That is slash damage, not piercing. Also Raikage tanked Sasuke's raiton induced katana with his neck and yet Chidori was able to partially penetrate him. Kimi's chanaces of stopping Raikiri with his bones aren't looking good in that case.

2 - There is no evidence that his heart and brain is damaged by that process.

3 - It is one of them for sure. As for tanking it, there is no evidence. If Kakashi hits him in his heart or his skull it is very likely that he'll immediately die.



Shazam said:


> So you don't actually have any feats for or against Hokage Kakashi then? And instead, you are hypothetically placing him based on the Naruto series (e_ven though Hokage Kakashi is a post-Naruto era character_) showings Kakashi has had with a sharingan, then you try to imagine that same Kakashi without the sharingan?
> 
> This is like most people to be honest, sadly.
> 
> ...



No one has any feats for Hokage Kakashi. We can only scale him from his 3 tomoe incarnation.
And no Novel's aren't canon. That isn't even up to debate.

So without sharingan Kakashi can't even utilize Raikiri properly. You can start off with that and try to gauge how weaker he'd be.


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## Bonly (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> It’s because my threads are about making people think critically about portrayal and feats, rather then just going off the popular opinion.



No it's not. It's simply because you have laughable claims and pretty much everyone comes in here to say "no, you're crazy, you're wanking, etc." and they just keep replying back.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Bone Forest
> 
> She has no counter to something on this scale:


 Kimimaro will likely be dead before this even comes out, and even if it does, why can't Mei just dodge the bones and position her body in-between them? Also Kimimaro would just die of illness right after using them, so he can't do much anyway.


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## Soul (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I’m talking about Healthy Kimi.



Maybe I am not as knowledgeable of him. Still not seeing how he wins.



> I place Juugo around Top Jonin so Kimi being able to consistently beat him places him at least Low-Kage



It's pretty cute when people try to swing that A > B, B > C therefore A > C kind of thing in this Battledome.
Naruto has never been that kind of thing. Match-ups are important. State of mind is vital in some scenarios.
Also keep in mind that Kimimaro was supposedly able to deal with Juugo, but that was before. Thinking that Juugo was as strong before as after everything we saw it's far-fetched at best.



> As far as the Deidara question; Deidara tends to start fights in CqC with C1



And Kimimaro tends to start of with Tenshi Sendan or a basic dance to gauge the opponent's ability.
State of mind can't be judged as IC if he is being controlled by Edo Tensei.



> he almost didn’t survive this choice when facing Sasuke



"Almost" is an interesting way of seeing it.
From where I stand he only had some difficulties getting into his favorite range to work with.



> Kimi is an even superior cqc fighter then Sasuke



That is a bold claim. And even if it was correct it doesn't mean that he is as fast.
I just don't see how Kimimaro is blitzing Deidara, especially since it's OoC for him to do so.



> So Deidara dying before he gets airborne is a real possibly.



Anything to back up that claim? Because I just don't see it.
He can't blitz Deidara (Sasuke is faster and couldn't) and IC Kimimaro likes to see what his opponent can do first (Naruto, Lee, Gaara). And Kimimaro was on a mission (Retrieve Sasuke), so it's not like he was trying to stall. Kimimaro on the war under the effects of Edo Tensei.



> If Diedara does get air born he will use C2 first and fly around 5m up; Kimi bone forest can extend at least 5m into the air considering it lift Kimi out of Gaaras quick sand which was designed to sink Gaara 200m. Bone Forest will ether hit Deidara by itself or it will allow Kimi to reach that height by moving along the bone and attack Deidara for the win.



Nope, please stop. There is no way Deidara gets hit with Sawarabi no Mai.
You do know that Deidara reacted to Kazekage Gaara sand, Sasuke's quick attacks, etc, right?
I don't even know how you can try to argue this. As soon as Deidara sees a bone popping out of the ground he'll keep his range.


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## Omote (Mar 3, 2019)

Seriously, Sasuke just genjutsu GGs this noob

Why is this thread still open


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## Soul (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> It’s because my threads are about making people think critically about portrayal and feats, rather then just going off the popular opinion.



This thread is somewhat interesting, but I wouldn't go that far



> As we later see that Kimi can fight against division commander and Naruto clone competively and subdue Juugo a feat well above any Jonin.



Because Kishi keeps giving power ups or nerfing characters to fit his narrative because it's his work.
The manga isn't clear cut because Kishi is a mediocre and/or lazy writer.


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## NamesClassified (Mar 3, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And no Novel's aren't canon. That isn't even up to debate.


The last Naruto chapter provides evidence that at least the Shinden Novels are canon. Mirai directly references the mission she partakes in during the Steam Ninja Scrolls novel(protecting Kakashi and Guy).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

@Soul 

Kimi had a 4.5 in speed and 5 in Tai while near death in the Databook, which are equivalent or better in the case of Tai then Sasuke. His style is also a lot more unpredictable in Cqc. So yes when healthy he is much deadlier in Tai at cqc then Sasuke. Deidara even states he nearly died to Sasukes Cqc which is why he immediately decides to take to the skies; and sure his c1 birds are nibl, but if he goes c2 dragon it was easily hit by Shuriken and Eisou; and can be hit by bone forest. Deidara can win don’t get me wrong but it depends heavily on how both choose to act IC and their knowledge of each other’s abilities or Jutsu


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

Bonly said:


> No it's not. It's simply because you have laughable claims and pretty much everyone comes in here to say "no, you're crazy, you're wanking, etc." and they just keep replying back.


And then fail to be able to counter my arguments...


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## Hardcore (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Soul
> 
> Kimi had a 4.5 in speed and 5 in Tai while near death in the Databook, which are equivalent or better in the case of Tai then Sasuke. His style is also a lot more unpredictable in Cqc. So yes when healthy he is much deadlier in Tai at cqc then Sasuke. Deidara even states he nearly died to Sasukes Cqc which is why he immediately decides to take to the skies; and sure his c1 birds are nibl, but if he goes c2 dragon it was easily hit by Shuriken and Eisou; and can be hit by bone forest. Deidara can win don’t get me wrong but it depends heavily on how both choose to act IC and their knowledge of each other’s abilities or Jutsu



yeah and feats don't support that..

Lee without gates was managing to spar with Kimi and landing more hits on him, compare that to BoS Sasuke nigh-blitzing BoS Naruto..


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## Bonly (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> And then fail to be able to counter my arguments...



More power to you if you think they failed, doesn't change that your threads doesn't get attention because it makes people think

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hardcore (Mar 3, 2019)

Bonly said:


> More power to you if you think they failed, doesn't change that your threads doesn't get attention because it makes people think



this is already @ 6 pages, the previous Tobirama faster than Minato saga took 8 pages, and Turrin still did not drop down

the sagas will always continue


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## Bonly (Mar 3, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> this is already @ 6 pages, the previous Tobirama faster than Minato saga took 8 pages, and Turrin still did not drop down
> 
> the sagas will always continue



Ok


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

@Grimmjowsensei 

If his heart and brain are turned to bone that means he can function without a heart or brain. Anyway the bottom line is that Chidori needs to pierce through Kimi bone amor with enough juice let to pierce through his heart (and not stop short like Ei) and then Kimi has to not be able to regen from it, considering what he has Regend from their is certainly a good claim to be made that he can survive it.

So with that said can you say for certain he’d die to Chidori? No I don’t think you can or at least haven’t brought any evidence to say so


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> Karin is an extremely high level sensor while Sasuke has Sharingan.......


And Kimi is a master Taijutsu expert with extremely high speed and reflexes.

What reason do I have to believe he can’t dodge


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> And Kimi is a master Taijutsu expert with extremely high speed and reflexes.
> 
> What reason do I have to believe he can’t dodge


Kimimaro called a weakened base Lee "too fast" while he was using Drunken Fist and said that his speed in the First Gate was "impressive" even though Lee hadn't fully recovered yet. Kimimaro's "extremely high speed and reflexes" are dirt tier in comparison to any Kage level character, hell, they're dirt tier in comparison to other jonin as Jugo and Suigetsu's ability to keep up with V1 A is tiers above that. Kimimaro's databook stats are completely unsupported by the manga, there is no way he is as fast as any version of Sasuke in Shippuden.


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## 1yesman9 (Mar 3, 2019)

Healthy Kimimaro is high-jonin tier, below the likes of P1 Kakashi & Kabuto.

The idea that Kimi was Orochimaru's strongest servant is mistranslation.

His feats against Juugo aren't impressive, as Suigetsu later replicates them ( effortlessly knocks Juugo out when he becomes enraged ).

His actual feats when unhealthy are at most worth 2 - 3 individual S4 members ( this is clear once u compare kido to neji, and neji to lee ), meaning unhealthy Kimi is inferior to the combination of genma and raido. The jump required to place him at the level of kage is insufficiently supported by any material. Unlike with Itachi, it's never even stated that unhealthy Kimimaro is any weaker ( barring his time limit ), it's more of a fan assumption.

Kimi's defensive feats are overrated because people don't realize that the pressure Gaara's of gaara's sand tsunami is distributed. His defensive limit is shown quite clearly when his strongest bone is destroyed by Gaaras sand + minerals.

Kimi's performance against KN0 Naruto is misunderstood. Shadow clone severely divides Naruto's kurama amp, and KN0 Naruto wasn't as angry, or emitting as large and violent an aura as against Sasuke. This resolves any conflicts between KN0 Naruto blitzing Sasuke, and Kimi having trouble with a slower Lee.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> And Kimi is a master Taijutsu expert with extremely high speed and reflexes.
> 
> What reason do I have to believe he can’t dodge



Mei is a kage level ninjutsu specialist.

What reason do I have to believe she has no way to touch a person just because they can dodge her most basic attack?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Phenomenon (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Daikodan won’t do any damage; water dome is Kisames best chance to win; but he could loose before this and Kimi can also escape with Bone Forest extending past the dome and him traveling along the bones to escap.
> 
> Also even if he lost to Water Dome; it’s pretty unfair of you to treat the idea of Kimi tangling with an Akatsuki as laughable while at the same time Kisame needs his strongest technique to win....


I understand match ups do matter but the idea that Kimi is hanging with guys that can shut him down fairly easily is what I find laughable, Strongest techniques or not he's getting whooped beyond belief as good as he may be he's not scratching the Low Kage tier or beating Kisame for that matter.

Kisame would seriously wreck him I'd put Hidan up against him before he's qualified to battle higher tier Akatsuki members.


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## Soul (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kimi had a 4.5 in speed and 5 in Tai while near death in the Databook, which are equivalent or better in the case of Tai then Sasuke.



Assuming that he has 4.5 in speed and 5 in Taijutsu while being sick isn't realistic or it isn't impacting him that much.
Placing Kimimaro well above the best Taijutsu users in the manga is ridiculous. He is obviously not as great at hand to hand combat as Gai.



> His style is also a lot more unpredictable in Cqc.



True. Luckily that doesn't affect my argument.
He may be more unpredictable once he gets close, but he isn't getting close. Sasuke's Shunshin has been noted for being exceptionally fast and even then he couldn't get to Deidara. And that isn't tracked as speed (Same as Minato's Hiraishin).



> So yes when healthy he is much deadlier in Tai at cqc then Sasuke.



Again, that's a bold claim.
Sasuke is one of the most resourceful CQC fighters in the whole manga.



> Deidara even states he nearly died to Sasukes Cqc



Maybe because he was careless?
Maybe he is nothing that he should have started off creating distance instead of doing what he did.
There are many interpretations as of what he is talking about.



> Deidara can win don’t get me wrong but it depends heavily on how both choose to act IC and their knowledge of each other’s abilities or Jutsu



While I somewhat agree with this, I don't think Kimimaro is getting close. Not even with your definition of IC.
You didn't address that Kimimaro's IC isn't blitzing immediately, which is one of the biggest roadblocks your argument has.



Turrin said:


> And then fail to be able to counter my arguments...



Still don't have solid answers to my argument.
You are decent at what you do, don't get me wrong, but what you are trying to argue for is a task probably too tall to defend.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 3, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> 
> If his heart and brain are turned to bone that means he can function without a heart or brain. Anyway the bottom line is that Chidori needs to pierce through Kimi bone amor with enough juice let to pierce through his heart (and not stop short like Ei) and then Kimi has to not be able to regen from it, considering what he has Regend from their is certainly a good claim to be made that he can survive it.
> 
> So with that said can you say for certain he’d die to Chidori? No I don’t think you can or at least haven’t brought any evidence to say so



We can certainly say that'd he'd die to Raikiri unless you can prove that he can function without a heart or a brain and/or you can prove that he is durable enough to stop Chidori like A.



NamesClassified said:


> The last Naruto chapter provides evidence that at least the Shinden Novels are canon. Mirai directly references the mission she partakes in during the Steam Ninja Scrolls novel(protecting Kakashi and Guy).



I'm not sure what you are referring to but I don't consider something that isn't a part of the manga and that isn't written by Kishimoto canon.


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## NamesClassified (Mar 3, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'm not sure what you are referring to but I don't consider something that isn't a part of the manga and that isn't written by Kishimoto canon.



But it is canon if Kishimoto references it in his own manga. The title of the novel i'm referencing is


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 3, 2019)

I don’t think Healthy Kimi would beat all Low Kage and doubt that he is Low Kage.

However, Kimimaro being on his literal deathbed still puts him in far worse shape than anyone else we have seen. Kimimaro meanwhile has a fighting style that can be scaled up or down to virtually any level depending on the authors mood.

I think the problem is that sick and healthy Kimi have different feats that are incongruous. Because Healthy Kimi has off panel feats while near dead Kimi on panel feats, people tend to stick to the on panel ones.

Massacring fodder is an upper Jonin level feat, stalling a KCM clone backed by fodder is a Low Kage level feat, repeatedly stopping Jugo without hurting him is a Low Kage level feat. Kimi also has DB scores that are at least comparable to Kisame, Deidara, Kakuzu, Hidan, Chiyo, Gai, BoS Sasuke, and BoS Gaara. But failing to overwhelm Gaara who is maybe low Jonin is pathetic for a Kage. Other sick Ninja like Itachi and Orochimaru’s didn’t drop that many tiers. But that might get back to Kimimaro being a minor character with no plot relevance, so little time was spent reinforcing the idea that he was probably more debilitated than anyone else given how little time he had before dying.

Restraining Jugo might come with the caveat that Jugo might have been weaker, but nobody said Jugo was weaker back then so with the lack of emphasis on any change for Jugo I doubt that Jugo was more than a tier weaker, so restraining Jugo consistently was at least an upper Jonin level feat.

Seeing Kishi decide to group Kimimaro with Chiyo against Mifune and a KCM clone in the WA without either side winning leads me to believe that Kimi must be relevant in a battle at that level, which means he is likely no more than a tier below the others fighting there.

In the last year I’ve consequently gone from viewing Healthy Kimi as likely being below Asuma or Kurenai but outclassing the PI Genin’s best, to believing Kimimaro is probably being either an elite Jonin comparable (IMO) to PI Kakashi/PI Kabuto/BoS Naruto/Hidan/WA Choji, or an Entry Kage Level Ninja comparable to Mifune/Chiyo/Rasa/WA Darui/Konan/Kitsuchi.

So IMO Kimi is somewhat underrated and is likely either elite Jonin or Entry Kage level when healthy, but was more effected by his health than even other sick characters.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 4, 2019)

NamesClassified said:


> But it is canon if Kishimoto references it in his own manga. The title of the novel i'm referencing is


No it's not. It is on a different medium written by a the different author and only mentioned in the manga for marketing purposes and to connect the original manga to the semi canon(I'm assuming Kishi is still the editor of Boruto) continuation created by a different mangaka.


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## NamesClassified (Mar 4, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No it's not. It is on a different medium written by a the different author and only mentioned in the manga for marketing purposes and to connect the original manga to the semi canon(I'm assuming Kishi is still the editor of Boruto) continuation created by a different mangaka.


Canon just refers to whatever is official material that the creator/author/owner will use in the main continuity as fact. If Kishimoto references something in his canonical manga, then why wouldn't it be official canon?

 It why should it matter what reasons why Kishimoto chooses to do so. If you choose to ignore it, then that's your business slick.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We can certainly say that'd he'd die to Raikiri unless you can prove that he can function without a heart or a brain and/or you can prove that he is durable enough to stop Chidori like A.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you are referring to but I don't consider something that isn't a part of the manga and that isn't written by Kishimoto canon.


He functioned without one where becoming bone via Sawarabi no Mai.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

@Soul 

1. How is it not realistic Itachi speed and reflexes were effected by being less ill then Kimi was. It’s logical to assume Kimi physical attributes also took a major hit due to his illness. 

2. The way Shunshin works it’s its speed is dictated by a characters chakra. Kimi has much higher stamina then Sasuke and the same CS Senjutsu to enhance. Kimi Shunshin should be faster then Sasukes, just like Kimi when healthy is likely faster then Sasuke and more cable in CQC

3. It’s what the stats and feats bare out. Kimi is a Cqc specialist with one of the most broken bloodlines for this purpose; so much so that Orochimaru targeted his body alongside the Uchiha and her was called the greatest of his clan; as well as it being a core ability of Kaguya

4. Okay so what’s saying he won’t be careless against Kimi. Deidara problem in general is he tends to be careless when he fights or arrogant. If he was a more experience do Ninja with a more balanced style and less careless he likely wouldn’t be considered Low-Kage ot have had such a hard time with the enemies he did in the manga. People have to remember that Deidara is actually only 19 Years old; and while to me that squarely puts Deidara in the genius category for how far he came in that time frame without Sharingan or Bijuu; he’s still light on the maturity and experience of other fighters. 

5. The first thing Kimi did when Gaara showed up is use his high speed finger bullets while closing disatance on him. Say he does this against Deidara; assuming Deidara can even dodge a healthy Kimi bullets is he going to be able to form a clay creation and escape before Kimi closes that range, especially when Kimi fingee bullets can take out the clay creation before it can fly. I have my doubts . One Kimi is in range Deidara looses as he can handle Kimi in Cqc and the only reason he escaped against Sasuke is by using C1 to distract Sasuke while he created distance, but if Kimi simply goes CS and hardens his bones he can run through the bombs without issue preventing this from occurring. And then it’s GG for Deidara.

6. I don’t think it’s a task too tall or necessarily and incorrect premise. When I make these threads I’m usually not completely sold on the ideas myself and I look to see if there are strong counter arguments. In this case I haven’t seen many in that it seems like a lot of people are just misunderstanding my premise of Kimi can beat these characters as Kimi will beat these characters.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

AJBeckyBlissRollins said:


> I understand match ups do matter but the idea that Kimi is hanging with guys that can shut him down fairly easily is what I find laughable, Strongest techniques or not he's getting whooped beyond belief as good as he may be he's not scratching the Low Kage tier or beating Kisame for that matter.
> 
> Kisame would seriously wreck him I'd put Hidan up against him before he's qualified to battle higher tier Akatsuki members.


Someone using their strongest techniques to win isn’t whooping the other person; that is a high diff match. So yeah to say Kimi can’t compete with Kisame and then citing Kisame could win with his strongest Jutsu is a fallacious argument. 

And Hidan can’t even damage Kimi


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> Mei is a kage level ninjutsu specialist.
> 
> What reason do I have to believe she has no way to touch a person just because they can dodge her most basic attack?


Because again Karin is dodging it and the attacking was never depicted at having some great speed feats to it. 

She can land plant of stuff on Kimi; I just don’t see her landing Youton as it doesn’t have good speed feats


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kimimaro called a weakened base Lee "too fast" while he was using Drunken Fist and said that his speed in the First Gate was "impressive" even though Lee hadn't fully recovered yet. Kimimaro's "extremely high speed and reflexes" are dirt tier in comparison to any Kage level character, hell, they're dirt tier in comparison to other jonin as Jugo and Suigetsu's ability to keep up with V1 A is tiers above that. Kimimaro's databook stats are completely unsupported by the manga, there is no way he is as fast as any version of Sasuke in Shippuden.


Dude Kakashi also called Lees speed impressive during CE; and took out his Sharingan to see Gates. You need to understand that Lee even in P1 is one of the fastest and most capable Taijutsu specialist; even more so when using Gates or Drunk. The latter of which even Gai had trouble restraining. Kimi was also giving Lee respect just like Kakashi was; and Kimi was near death. So basically we have a near death Kimi still beating out a top CqC fighter. That’s impressive not retroactive.

As far as Kimi speed goes the Databook tells us even when near death his speed is greater then Lees base speed at 4.5 and DB doesn’t include CS increase. So healthy Kimi is likely one of the top tier in speed and even further beyond that win CS. This is also supported by him being able to fight Mifune and KCM Naruto clone in the war both of which are top tier speedsters without even fully releasing CS


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Dude Kakashi also called Lees speed impressive during CE; and took out his Sharingan to see Gates. You need to understand that Lee even in P1 is one of the fastest and most capable Taijutsu specialist; even more so when using Gates or Drunk. The latter of which even Gai had trouble restraining. Kimi was also giving Lee respect just like Kakashi was; and Kimi was near death. So basically we have a near death Kimi still beating out a top CqC fighter. That’s impressive not retroactive.


 Kakashi is already established as much faster than Lee is though, so that's a terrible comparison. Kimimaro, however, wasn't as the even slower Drunk Lee was too fast for him. This means Weakened First Gate Lee > Weakened Drunken Lee > Kimimaro > Weakened Base Lee in terms of speed. Guy having trouble restraining Lee is just databook hyperbole, the gap between them was already established when he effortlessly smacked Gaara's sand aside in base whilst Lee had to use the Fifth Gate to do the same thing.


> As far as Kimi speed goes the Databook tells us even when near death his speed is greater then Lees base speed at 4.5 and DB doesn’t include CS increase. So healthy Kimi is likely one of the top tier in speed and even further beyond that win CS. This is also supported by him being able to fight Mifune and KCM Naruto clone in the war both of which are top tier speedsters without even fully releasing CS


 The DB stats are illogical and inaccurate. How the fuck is base P1 Lee's speed equal to P2 Sasuke's speed and Deidara's? When it was already established that P1 Sasuke's speed increased to be on par with Lee's? Him being able to fight Mifune and a KCM clone wasn't paid any attention to in the manga so that tells me Kishi didn't put any thought into it and didn't care about that. So it doesn't really mean anything.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 5, 2019)

NamesClassified said:


> Canon just refers to whatever is official material that the creator/author/owner will use in the main continuity as fact. If Kishimoto references something in his canonical manga, then why wouldn't it be official canon?
> 
> It why should it matter what reasons why Kishimoto chooses to do so. If you choose to ignore it, then that's your business slick.



Manga was over at that point, referencing an outside source could in no way hurt the integrity of the manga and what would come after that(meaning Boruto) wasn't Kishimoto's product anyways.

So nah, it ain't canon as it is created by a different author on a different medium.



Turrin said:


> He functioned without one where becoming bone via Sawarabi no Mai.



Then every shinobi can function without vital organs considering that they can turn into inanimate objects via henge.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Prince Idonojie (Mar 5, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> "Low Kage" for me is basically "Mid Kage" for everyone else, my view of what qualifies as "Kage level" and above is higher than most based on what I've seen. So the ranking is not as bad as you think.


 If everyone is low-Kage, no one is low-Kage.


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Because again Karin is dodging it and the attacking was never depicted at having some great speed feats to it.
> 
> She can land plant of stuff on Kimi; I just don’t see her landing Youton as it doesn’t have good speed feats



It wasn't even aimed at Karin.....

Sasuke also only dodged because Karin tipped him off about the first shot with her shriek.

There's nothing actually showing it as slow and, even if there was, databook says the speed is variable.


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 5, 2019)

This would be why Sasuke dodged the first shot at Kage Summit, but instead used Susano'o for the second blast.

The second blast of it was a concentrated stream and not a glob. So, it was faster.

This also explains why it appeared to be faster when she fired the second wave of it at Madara to cover him in acid.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kakashi is already established as much faster than Lee is though, so that's a terrible comparison. Kimimaro, however, wasn't as the even slower Drunk Lee was too fast for him. This means Weakened First Gate Lee > Weakened Drunken Lee > Kimimaro > Weakened Base Lee in terms of speed. Guy having trouble restraining Lee is just databook hyperbole, the gap between them was already established when he effortlessly smacked Gaara's sand aside in base whilst Lee had to use the Fifth Gate to do the same thing.
> The DB stats are illogical and inaccurate. How the fuck is base P1 Lee's speed equal to P2 Sasuke's speed and Deidara's? When it was already established that P1 Sasuke's speed increased to be on par with Lee's? Him being able to fight Mifune and a KCM clone wasn't paid any attention to in the manga so that tells me Kishi didn't put any thought into it and didn't care about that. So it doesn't really mean anything.


Drunk Lee wasn’t faster then Kimi and nether was first Gate Lee; reacted to both of them; only getting caught off guard by Lees unpredictability. And Gai having difficulty restraining Drunk Lee was in the manga too. 

So realistically you have Near Death Kimi > Drunk Lee / Gated Lee > Base Lee

On the Sasuke thing if anything the manga  is inconsistent on that not the Databook. I say this because we have Kimi was taking down KN0 clones with ease on mass; and KN0 Naruto was blitzing SRA Sasuke with ease. Yet CE Sasuke is suppose to have Lees speed who was putting up a better fight against Kimi then KN0 Naruto. 

So we have Kimi > CE Lee = CE Sasuke > KN0 Naruto > SRA Sasuke 

Only possibly explanation is that CE Sasuke was using chakra or something to enhance his speed or it’s just Kishi being inconsistent.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> It wasn't even aimed at Karin.....
> 
> Sasuke also only dodged because Karin tipped him off about the first shot with her shriek.
> 
> There's nothing actually showing it as slow and, even if there was, databook says the speed is variable.


So again what’s is showing that it’s fast enough to hit someone whose got a 4.5 in speed and 5 in Taijutsu when near death and is faster when healthy and has CS to further enhance his speed


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then every shinobi can function without vital organs considering that they can turn into inanimate objects via henge.


Henge is a trick, while Kimi actually turns into bones


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So again what’s is showing that it’s fast enough to hit someone whose got a 4.5 in speed and 5 in Taijutsu when near death and is faster when healthy and has CS to further enhance his speed



using databook stats is a concession

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> using databook stats is a concession


Disregarding data book stats for no reason is a concession


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## Hardcore (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Disregarding data book stats for no reason is a concession



Genin Lee without gates was able to exchange blows with kimi though having the advantage landing several hits, so that could be one reason tbh


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> Genin Lee without gates was able to exchange blows with kimi though having the advantage landing several hits, so that could be one reason tbh


If you think Drunk Lee is Genin level in CQC that is a major problem.

The other major problem is not accounting for Kimi illness at all, despite him being literally at deaths door.


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## Hardcore (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> *If you think Drunk Lee is Genin level in CQC that is a major problem.*
> 
> The other major problem is not accounting for Kimi illness at all, despite him being literally at deaths door.



why? is there any indication he gets faster when drunk? 

Kimi was dying yes but is there any indication that he was slower/weaker? Oro and Kabuto were still praising his strength saying there's no one out there who could beat him


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> why? is there any indication he gets faster when drunk?
> 
> Kimi was dying yes but is there any indication that he was slower/weaker? Oro and Kabuto were still praising his strength saying there's no one out there who could beat him


Lee is above Genin level in the Chuunin Exams even when not drunk. So to say he is Genin level when drunk is ridiculous.

Itachi was slower and weaker from illness when in a similar but ultimately much less worse condition. We don’t need a direct statement to know that being inches form death effects someone’s physical well being. And we literally saw him die mid battle from illness


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## Hardcore (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Lee is above Genin level in the Chuunin Exams even when not drunk. So to say he is Genin level when drunk is ridiculous.
> 
> Itachi was slower and weaker from illness when in a similar but ultimately much less worse condition. We don’t need a direct statement to know that being inches form death effects someone’s physical well being. And we literally saw him die mid battle from illness




he was still Genin during that time though, it is not meant as a powerscale, and weaker than CE Sasuke

yeah, but there's no indication that his speed and reactions get affected, we knew that Itachi was half-blind which is a thing considering he relies on ocular powers


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Disregarding data book stats for no reason is a concession



"For no reason"

So, you've got nothing left to argue with

gg bro


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> "For no reason"
> 
> So, you've got nothing left to argue with
> 
> gg bro


Yes you have given no valid reason to ignore canon material


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> he was still Genin during that time though, it is not meant as a powerscale, and weaker than CE Sasuke
> 
> yeah, but there's no indication that his speed and reactions get affected, we knew that Itachi was half-blind which is a thing considering he relies on ocular powers


And Naruto is stil a Genin at end of the War so I guess RSM Naruto is Genin level by that logic. Even without Databook stats Sasukes Taijutsu was being compared to Lees (and he couldn’t even use it as long) and Sasuke was stated to be Chuunin level by that point. So at the very least Lee is Chuunin level in CQC, but if we go off stats and the characters being impressed heavily by Lee’s unweighted speed he is likely Jonin level in CQC. Or if we go off Drunk Lee giving Gai trouble he is at least Low-Jonin / High Chunin by then

He was not weaker then CE Sasuke In CQC. It also bares mentioning that Kimi never even remotely lost to Drunk Lee in CQC as the moment he started using his actual bloodline limit Taijutsu Lee couldn’t do shit and it actually got to the point where Lees blows couldn’t even phase CS2 Kimi whatsoever.

Do you really need a statement saying that someone who is terminally  ill and hours away from death wouldn’t be able to physical react and move the same way... come on man.


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## Hardcore (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> And Naruto is stil a Genin at end of the War so I guess RSM Naruto is Genin level by that logic.
> 
> He was not weaker then CE Sasuke In CQC. It also bares mentioning that Kimi never even remotely lost to Drunk Lee in CQC as the moment he started using his actual bloodline limit Taijutsu Lee couldn’t do shit and it actually got to the point where Lees blows couldn’t even phase CS2 Kimi whatsoever.



i referred to him as genin Lee because he was genin, not as a powerscale, i just said it, being genin doesn't mean he's weak..

he was actually, he had just recovered from his injury, and CE Sasuke performed better than him against Gaara in the CE, so yeah Lee was not stronger than that.. 


Turrin said:


> Do you really need a statement saying that someone who is terminally  ill and hours away from death wouldn’t be able to physical react and move the same way... come on man.



possibly and possibly not, something in reference would be solid, at least regarding reactions, as Oro and Kabu still praised him..

if he has physical feats/speed feats in the war that outweigh that, then I would agree with you, I don't remember much but didn't he just deal with samurais?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Henge is a trick, while Kimi actually turns into bones



Konan can turn into paper yet a broken pipe is enough to gravely wound her
Link removed

or she gasps when you grab her throat.
Link removed

You are talking nonsense.


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes you have given no valid reason to ignore canon material



"canon"


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Mar 5, 2019)

I never got the hype for this guy. He's got no real feats on par of a low Kage and went out fighting genin like Rock Lee and part 1 Gaara. Strong genins but hardly unstoppable beasts in the grand scheme of things. 

And while Kimimaro was ill at the time I don't see anything justifying the hype. Minato and Tobirama had very little feats before Shippuden expanded on them but we always know Tobirama was an accomplished(if overshadowed) Hokage and that Minato was a great war hero. What exactly did Kimimaro do to earn the hype he does?


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Drunk Lee wasn’t faster then Kimi and nether was first Gate Lee; reacted to both of them; only getting caught off guard by Lees unpredictability. And Gai having difficulty restraining Drunk Lee was in the manga too.
> 
> So realistically you have Near Death Kimi > Drunk Lee / Gated Lee > Base Lee.


 As you can see, it wasn't entirely unpredictability. It was a combination of that and his speed having increased. Additionally, the fact that Lee resorted to the First Gate when Drunken Fist failed is a heavy indicator that it's power and speed is greater. So what we have is First Gate Lee > Drunken Lee > Kimimaro > Base Lee and of course Lee is naturally slower since he hadn't fully recovered yet. This is pretty much undeniable unless you have a better translation than the Viz that states something else.


> On the Sasuke thing if anything the manga  is inconsistent on that not the Databook. I say this because we have Kimi was taking down KN0 clones with ease on mass; and KN0 Naruto was blitzing SRA Sasuke with ease. Yet CE Sasuke is suppose to have Lees speed who was putting up a better fight against Kimi then KN0 Naruto.
> 
> So we have Kimi > CE Lee = CE Sasuke > KN0 Naruto > SRA Sasuke
> 
> Only possibly explanation is that CE Sasuke was using chakra or something to enhance his speed or it’s just Kishi being inconsistent.


Lee wasn't putting up a better fight though, he didn't land a single attack on Kimimaro and Kimimaro wasn't on the offensive then. A more accurate ranking would be First Gate Lee > Drunken Lee > Kimimaro > KN0 Naruto > SRA Sasuke > SRA Base Lee in terms of raw speed. Also even if Kishimoto was inconsistent with speed, this still doesn't change the fact that Kimimaro's speed is still within the same area as the names mentioned above: Which ultimately puts him far below any fast Kage level character in Shippuden such as Sasuke. There's no way in hell Kimimaro was on par with BoS Sasuke in speed, nothing but the flawed databook stats even suggests that.


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## Phenomenon (Mar 5, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Someone using their strongest techniques to win isn’t whooping the other person; that is a high diff match. So yeah to say Kimi can’t compete with Kisame and then citing Kisame could win with his strongest Jutsu is a fallacious argument.
> 
> And Hidan can’t even damage Kimi


So one shotting someone with their best tech is not considered a whooping just because it's their strongest?


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## Hardcore (Mar 5, 2019)

so, I guess this saga is over

looking forward to the next saga 

@Turrin


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 6, 2019)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> I never got the hype for this guy. He's got no real feats on par of a low Kage and went out fighting genin like Rock Lee and part 1 Gaara. Strong genins but hardly unstoppable beasts in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> And while Kimimaro was ill at the time I don't see anything justifying the hype. Minato and Tobirama had very little feats before Shippuden expanded on them but we always know Tobirama was an accomplished(if overshadowed) Hokage and that Minato was a great war hero. What exactly did Kimimaro do to earn the hype he does?



Kimimaro created a jutsu larger than what we've seen from most jonin and elite jonin. His raw offensive capability is Kage level based on that.

Gaara, as well, was throwing around Kage level ninjutsu in that fight. The moves Gaara was using would screw over almost any jonin.

In addition to that, Kimimaro was no diff'ing an army of KN0 clones. The same level of kyuubi chakra that had Naruto shitblitzing Sasuke.



During part 1, the strongest of the kids had certain skills/stats that reached up into jonin level. 

Kimimaro was beyond the level of anyone except Gaara, who was amping his jutsu with bijuu chakra.



Then, when he came back in the war arc as an Edo, his feats were on par with Hebi Sasuke when dispatching samurai fodders.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 6, 2019)

Kimimaro isn't as strong as you think he is, but he's considerably stronger than what people take him for. Kimimaro has a Taijutsu stat of 5 with a speed of stamina of 4.5 while gravely ill with Cursed Seal enhancements to boost him even further. It's true that Kimimaro did struggle against Drunken Lee, but people do ignore the fact that even Gai was frightened by what Lee could become while Drunk and both his speed and taijutsu improved significantly. Kimimaro's taijutsu literally launches a flurry of attacks that leave after-images behind; a testament to his 5 in taijutsu. Drunken Lee countering the attack does not discredit Kimimaro's ability rather that it simply confirms Gai's fear of what Lee could become.

 That's not to say Kimimaro is insanely powerful. Despite being revived by Edo Tensei, he has no notable speed features worth mentioning. There were shinobi that are arguably Elite Jonin-Low Kage that demonstrated fairly impressive speed features and had their time in the limelight whereas Kimimaro's feats were never given any attention to. Darui managed to speed-blitz Kin/Gin and overwhelm them in combat, Mifune managed to outspeed Hanzo, and Sai managed to speed-blitz an albeit arrogant Deidara and Sasori. Kimimaro's performances were never given attention to and he demonstrated nothing that would give us any reason to believe that he can contend with any Kage level shinobi. He's probably at the cusp of low-kage, but he hasn't demonstrated anything that impressive during the War Arc that would place him any further than that. He has the speed and taijutsu, but not enough to compensate for his lack long-range ninjutsu and defensive capabilities.


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## Turrin (Mar 6, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> i referred to him as genin Lee because he was genin, not as a powerscale, i just said it, being genin doesn't mean he's weak..
> 
> he was actually, he had just recovered from his injury, and CE Sasuke performed better than him against Gaara in the CE, so yeah Lee was not stronger than that..
> 
> ...


He was stronger in Taijutsu then CE Sasuke and all he face Kimi in was a Taijutsu clash

Being praised doesn’t mean your at your best; so that’s not really evidence of anything. Really the burden of proof is on you if you wish to claim the physical abilities of someone hours from death weren’t effected 

He fought the Samurai division, which included Mifune to stand still and then KCM Naruto clone shows up they still fail to put Kimi down. You can say it was off panel but plenty of Edos lost off panel against lesser fighters.


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## Turrin (Mar 6, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Kimimaro isn't as strong as you think he is, but he's considerably stronger than what people take him for. Kimimaro has a Taijutsu stat of 5 with a speed of stamina of 4.5 while gravely ill with Cursed Seal enhancements to boost him even further. It's true that Kimimaro did struggle against Drunken Lee, but people do ignore the fact that even Gai was frightened by what Lee could become while Drunk and both his speed and taijutsu improved significantly. Kimimaro's taijutsu literally launches a flurry of attacks that leave after-images behind; a testament to his 5 in taijutsu. Drunken Lee countering the attack does not discredit Kimimaro's ability rather that it simply confirms Gai's fear of what Lee could become.
> 
> That's not to say Kimimaro is insanely powerful. Despite being revived by Edo Tensei, he has no notable speed features worth mentioning. There were shinobi that are arguably Elite Jonin-Low Kage that demonstrated fairly impressive speed features and had their time in the limelight whereas Kimimaro's feats were never given any attention to. Darui managed to speed-blitz Kin/Gin and overwhelm them in combat, Mifune managed to outspeed Hanzo, and Sai managed to speed-blitz an albeit arrogant Deidara and Sasori. Kimimaro's performances were never given attention to and he demonstrated nothing that would give us any reason to believe that he can contend with any Kage level shinobi. He's probably at the cusp of low-kage, but he hasn't demonstrated anything that impressive during the War Arc that would place him any further than that. He has the speed and taijutsu, but not enough to compensate for his lack long-range ninjutsu and defensive capabilities.


Logically he would have had to kept up with Mifune and KCM-Naruto to not be sealed by them in the War; and CS Juugo to be able to take care of him when he went berserk


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## Turrin (Mar 6, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Konan can turn into paper yet a broken pipe is enough to gravely wound her
> 3
> 
> or she gasps when you grab her throat.
> ...


You do realize Konan was able to regenerate those wounds with paper  and could indeed exist without organs right? She literally blows half of her body up and is just fine due to her Paper Angel Technique. She the regenerates these wounds by drawing in more paper and is able to perfectly reform her body. 

Konan only gets injured and dies after she runs out of chakra completely to use her Paper. So if anything this example proves my point with Kimi that so long as he has chakra he can regenerate with his body modification techniques


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## Turrin (Mar 6, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> As you can see, it wasn't entirely unpredictability. It was a combination of that and his speed having increased. Additionally, the fact that Lee resorted to the First Gate when Drunken Fist failed is a heavy indicator that it's power and speed is greater. So what we have is First Gate Lee > Drunken Lee > Kimimaro > Base Lee and of course Lee is naturally slower since he hadn't fully recovered yet. This is pretty much undeniable unless you have a better translation than the Viz that states something else.
> Lee wasn't putting up a better fight though, he didn't land a single attack on Kimimaro and Kimimaro wasn't on the offensive then. A more accurate ranking would be First Gate Lee > Drunken Lee > Kimimaro > KN0 Naruto > SRA Sasuke > SRA Base Lee in terms of raw speed. Also even if Kishimoto was inconsistent with speed, this still doesn't change the fact that Kimimaro's speed is still within the same area as the names mentioned above: Which ultimately puts him far below any fast Kage level character in Shippuden such as Sasuke. There's no way in hell Kimimaro was on par with BoS Sasuke in speed, nothing but the flawed databook stats even suggests that.


Yes it was both that Lee was fast and unpredictable. What your doing is boiling it down to 1 and saying he faster which isn’t true

The two problems with your argument ultimately are

1. Kimi was a near death Base Kimi; that Lee gave trouble too. Once that same Kimi used CS even partially he reacted fine to Gated Lee. So realistically we have Near Death Partial CS Near Death Kimi >= Gated Lee > Drunk Lee >= Near Death Base Kimi. So essentially that tells us Healthy Kimi in full CS1 would be way above Lee

2. Gated/Drunk Lee could beat most Jonin in a Taijutsu fight; and he ultimately loose to a Near Death Partial CS1 Kimi easily and later we saw Lee couldn’t even harm CS2 Kimi. So realistically this just shows he’s well above most Jonin in Taijutsu even when near death; and likely Kage level in Taijutsu when healthy


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## Hardcore (Mar 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He was stronger in Taijutsu then CE Sasuke and all he face Kimi in was a Taijutsu clash
> 
> *Being praised doesn’t mean your at your best; so that’s not really evidence of anything. Really the burden of proof is on you if you wish to claim the physical abilities of someone hours from death weren’t effected *
> 
> He fought the Samurai division, which included Mifune to stand still and then KCM Naruto clone shows up they still fail to put Kimi down. You can say it was off panel but plenty of Edos lost off panel against lesser fighters.



quite the opposite, burden of proof is on you to prove Kimi would have less strength before his death actually, and feats are feats, even if that's true, if he has no higher feats then that's it.. In Itachi's case, it was directly stated and we saw how half blind he was so yeah not similar here..


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes it was both that Lee was fast and unpredictable. What your doing is boiling it down to 1 and saying he faster which isn’t true.
> 
> The two problems with your argument ultimately are
> 
> ...


It was a mixture of him being both faster and too unpredictable, both were said to be the reason Kimimaro was losing. So how is he meant to be seen as faster?

Gated Lee ran circles around Kimimaro and landed a kick on him that he was unable to block. Kimimaro isn't as fast or faster than him at all.
Gated/Drunk Lee is above most jonin in taijutsu based on what exactly? Any jonin would effortlessly beat the shit out of him. The gap between the P1 Rookies and jonin was portrayed as being vast.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You do realize Konan was able to regenerate those wounds with paper  and could indeed exist without organs right? She literally blows half of her body up and is just fine due to her Paper Angel Technique. She the regenerates these wounds by drawing in more paper and is able to perfectly reform her body.


Evidence ?



> Konan only gets injured and dies after she runs out of chakra completely to use her Paper. So if anything this example proves my point with Kimi that so long as he has chakra he can regenerate with his body modification techniques


She wasn't out of chakra though, notice how she got blitzed before she could use a technique.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Mar 6, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> He cannot find Mei and she can just melt him and his bones.
> Lava that was cracking Madara's Susano'o melts any bones that get to close.
> 
> Mifune blitzes and beheads him or slices him up at the joints like a chicken.
> ...


I'm stealing the amazing carpet bomb.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 6, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> I'm stealing the amazing carpet bomb.


Yeah, at least Kimimaro would have a spectacular death...


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2019)

my 2 cents here
if kimi was as weak as shown in part 1 kabuto would have no reason to have revived him
same for haku, a haku who looses to KN0 naruto should not even be fast enough to block war arc lee and gai kick nor should he be able to intercept kakashi

@Turrin is right when he says you have mostly made up your mind and are looking at low end feats to say kimi is jounin level or weaker

However i will point out Kishi is annoyingly inconsistent, because in part 2 when bone forest was shown it was very lackluster

also we have a KCM clone struggling with a division backing against kimi while we see another who can face A3. so overall characters are hard to place based on feats

smartest thing to do should be based on their abilities and what it does, do you find kimimaro abilities worthy of kage level ?

I.e is his taijutsu kage level compared to other kage level taijutsu based on how it functions, by kage level taijutsu i mean
- frog katas : invisible punches extends reach
-A nintaijutsu: Super speed and durability
- hiashi jukken : long range vital organ damage, 359 vision
- tsunade Okasho: 1 hit 1 shot 
- bee 7 sword style : low chakra mixup taijutsu
- 8 gate techniques : speed+power+range boost

functionally speaking how does kimimaro taijutsu compare

kimimaro speed how does that compare to kage level speed and so on

but using feats blindly is very inaccurate when we imagine minato used hirashin twice before 8 gate gai could move yet apparently only barely avoided A4


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Logically he would have had to kept up with Mifune and KCM-Naruto to not be sealed by them in the War; and CS Juugo to be able to take care of him when he went berserk



 KCM Naruto's clone seem pretty exhausted afterwards though it is true he could battle against Mifune and CS Jugo. Still not enough to place him any further however.


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 6, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> - hiashi jukken : long range vital organ damage, 359 vision



"hEEasHi hAz nO biSnISs fiGHtInG kAge lEvels"


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## Omote (Mar 6, 2019)

Wonder what bait thread I should make today..

Feeling inspired from this


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 6, 2019)

Omote said:


> Wonder what bait thread I should make today..
> 
> Feeling inspired from this



It's okay, I can do one


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## Turrin (Mar 6, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> KCM Naruto's clone seem pretty exhausted afterwards though it is true he could battle against Mifune and CS Jugo. Still not enough to place him any further however.


KCM clone had enough juice for FRS which means Kimi at least dodge that attack something the 3RD Raikage couldn’t accomplish. Or he tanked it like 3rd Raikage which says something as well. But yeah I’m only saying he’s potentially Low-Kage


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## Turrin (Mar 6, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Evidence ?
> 
> 
> She wasn't out of chakra though, notice how she got blitzed before she could use a technique.


What do you mean evidence you posted the chapter yourself she blows up half her body and reforms her full body later by drawing in more paper. 

She didn’t have enough chakra to turn her body to paper anymore all she had left was enough for a paper disk she was going to throw at Obito


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## Turrin (Mar 6, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> It was a mixture of him being both faster and too unpredictable, both were said to be the reason Kimimaro was losing. So how is he meant to be seen as faster?
> 
> Gated Lee ran circles around Kimimaro and landed a kick on him that he was unable to block. Kimimaro isn't as fast or faster than him at all.
> Gated/Drunk Lee is above most jonin in taijutsu based on what exactly? Any jonin would effortlessly beat the shit out of him. The gap between the P1 Rookies and jonin was portrayed as being vast.


Where does it say he was faster; Kimi just acknowledge he is fast not faster.

What are you talking about he casually blocked Gated Lees Kick with dance of the pines and then was about to kill Lee before Gaara saved him:





——
The better question is what are you basing the idea that any Jonin would beat Rock Lee in Taijutsu on. Sure Jonin we’re stronger then Rock Lee but that is due to overall skil; if limited to a Taijutsu fight only most would loose.

As far as the evidence Lee stats tell us this. He has a 4 in speed and 4 in Taijutsu in base. Already a match for a more skilled Jonin like Kurunai who also has 4s; but then he has Gates or Drunken Fist enhancing his speed and Taijutsu further. If you don’t agree with DB stats then take into consideration portrayal; even Gai thought Lee was impressive when he used Drunken Fist and got into a cold swet at the idea of dealing with Drunk Lee again.


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## Hardcore (Mar 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> KCM clone had enough juice for FRS which means *Kimi at least dodge that attack something the 3RD Raikage couldn’t accomplish*. Or he tanked it like 3rd Raikage which says something as well. But yeah I’m only saying he’s potentially Low-Kage



isn't that what happened directly on panel though, A3 dodging FRS two time and naruto having to come extreme close range to hit him with it, who agrees?


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> KCM clone had enough juice for FRS which means Kimi at least dodge that attack something the 3RD Raikage couldn’t accomplish. Or he tanked it like 3rd Raikage which says something as well. But yeah I’m only saying he’s potentially Low-Kage



 I can see that.

 However, Raikage did dodge it effortlessly. He was only hit by it once he was midair and had to reposition himself for another blindside FRS. Though given that KCM Naruto's clone was exhausted afterwards, I highly doubt that FRS was thrown with as much speed as it usually is.


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> I can see that.
> 
> However, Raikage did dodge it effortlessly. He was only hit by it once he was midair and had to reposition himself for another blindside FRS. Though given that KCM Naruto's clone was exhausted afterwards, I highly doubt that FRS was thrown with as much speed as it usually is.


Where do you see the clone exhausted?


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> isn't that what happened directly on panel though, A3 dodging FRS two time and naruto having to come extreme close range to hit him with it, who agrees?


Naruto attributes Sandaime being able to dodge FRS to Sandaime being very fast; so Kimi with CS only partially opened would at least be within the same grouping of characters considered very fast by KCM Naruto which is enough to say his speed is Top notch especially if he were to increase it further with CS. 

We also don’t really know whether or not the chakra arms were used against Kimi it so then he evaded something even Ei3 couldn’t or tanked it like E3. But I won’t get into too much head canon.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> What do you mean evidence you posted the chapter yourself she blows up half her body and reforms her full body later by drawing in more paper.


She can only do that in paper form.



> She didn’t have enough chakra to turn her body to paper anymore all she had left was enough for a paper disk she was going to throw at Obito


There absolutely no evidence  that she can heal/negate wounds by turning into paper nor there is any evidence which suggests that she didn't have any chakra left to use it.

So in Kimi's case, he gets chidori to the heart and he dies.


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> She can only do that in paper form.
> 
> 
> There absolutely no evidence  that she can heal/negate wounds by turning into paper nor there is any evidence which suggests that she didn't have any chakra left to use it.
> ...


I think you miss the point Konan has the ability to regenerate herself with Paper and  exist without organs. Kimi doesn’t have another form he just does this stuff through his own biology of the Kayuga clan allowing it. So yes Konan can be damaged in her human form because she can’t do the shit she can in her Human form that she can in Paper Angel form; but Kimi has no alternative form


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I think you miss the point Konan has the ability to regenerate herself with Paper and  exist without organs. Kimi doesn’t have another form he just does this stuff through his own biology of the Kayuga clan allowing it. So yes Konan can be damaged in her human form because she can’t do the shit she can in her Human form that she can in Paper Angel form; but Kimi has no alternative form



Konan can't regenerate herself.
Konan can regenerate her paper parts with paper when she is in paper form. 

As for Kimi, you mentioned him becoming bone when using Sawaribi no mai to justify him existing without organs. I disproved that notion by using Konan's struggle against the metal pipe as an example.
Kimi may or may not be hurt by conventional means when he is inside Sawaribi no Mai, but other times he is just flesh and blood, and a raikiri through the heart or the brain will kill him.


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## Hardcore (Mar 7, 2019)

there's a difference between konan and kimi

kimi does not turn himself into bones, the bones are just there and he uses them, anything that pierces him will do the job

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Konan can't regenerate herself.
> Konan can regenerate her paper parts with paper when she is in paper form.
> 
> As for Kimi, you mentioned him becoming bone when using Sawaribi no mai to justify him existing without organs. I disproved that notion by using Konan's struggle against the metal pipe as an example.
> Kimi may or may not be hurt by conventional means when he is inside Sawaribi no Mai, but other times he is just flesh and blood, and a raikiri through the heart or the brain will kill him.


Grim everything Kimi can do he can do normally that’s the difference. It’s not like he’s transforming into a bunch of moving bones to fuse with Sawarbi no Mai. He just expends those bones from his own body; this means his body can handle this


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Grim everything Kimi can do he can do normally that’s the difference. It’s not like he’s transforming into a bunch of moving bones to fuse with Sawarbi no Mai. He just expends those bones from his own body; this means his body can handle this



Show me an instance of Kimi turning his entire body to bone and functioning that way outside Sawaribi no Mai. Or turning into bone after  recieving lethal wounds and healing them or operating without a brain or a heart.


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## Hardcore (Mar 7, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Show me an instance of Kimi turning his entire body to bone and functioning that way outside Sawaribi no Mai. Or turning into bone after  recieving lethal wounds and healing them or operating without a brain or a heart.



nah that's false, he just has the power to use/control his bones with high regeneration

his brain and flesh are still there, the dude coughed blood before dying


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## cdnab (Mar 7, 2019)

Kimimaro at the most is high jounin level. If he would have been alive and had time to train over the time skip he would have easily reached kage level.

Kimimaro surviving his encounter with KCM Naruto is not a good example to show us his strength because by the time KCM Naruto arrive all of the sealing ninjas are gone. If you go back and look at manga you will notice that we no longer see any sealing ninjas in the scene, the first time we seen him we see sealing ninjas in the scene. It doesn't matter how strong someone is because he was a resurrected he can only been defeated with sealing jutsu.

KCM Naruto would completely destroy a living Kimimaro, he wouldn't stand a chance.

People can't honestly believe he's faster than the 3rd Lightning kage who Naruto compared to the 4th in speed.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Show me an instance of Kimi turning his entire body to bone and functioning that way outside Sawaribi no Mai. Or turning into bone after  recieving lethal wounds and healing them or operating without a brain or a heart.


Kimi pulls his spine out which contains the centers nervous system of the body which the brain can’t function without. He ether is able to instantly regenerate from this with no lag time as he never looses motor control or his philology is different then a normal person and he can function without his brain working. Ether way proves that he should be able to regenerate even without his brain functioning.

This is an example beyond Sawarabi no Mai of Kimi unique physiology.

I also greatly doubt Chidori would be able to kill Kimi on the basis of Orochimaru coveting Kimi body for how unkillable Kimi is. Considering what we’ve seen Orochimaru survive without Kimi body (which is above the scale of Chidori) it wouldn’t make much sense of Orochimaru to consider Kimi so impervious and covet his body so heavily if he could be killed by Chidori. Whether Kimi would survive due to Regen or Regen and durability I seriously doubt he’s dying to Chidori given that hype. It’s also implied he survived FRS in the War Arc without being sealed; you a can say that was due to Edo but then he would have been sealed. So ether he dodged it, which doesn’t bode well for Sasuke chances of landing Chidori squarely on a lethal area if he could evade KCM Naruto, or he survives it Raikage style with it dining not enough damage to down him long enough for him to be sealed, which also rejects the idea of Chidori working.

Finally the dance of the pines would make it very dangerous to use Chidori against Kimi; as e can unpredictably extend his bones out and Sasuke could run his hand through one or more not only stopping the Chidori but damaging Sasuke heavily


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Where does it say he was faster; Kimi just acknowledge he is fast not faster.


 Him saying Drunk Lee was "Too fast" and losing to him indicates he is clearly faster, and First Gate Lee is visibly faster than that.


> What are you talking about he casually blocked Gated Lees Kick with dance of the pines and then was about to kill Lee before Gaara saved him:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 This isn't the same as physically blocking his attack, he most likely resorted to his bones to block because he couldn't block any other way fast enough. His inability to deal with a slower version of Lee as his drunk self implies that.


> The better question is what are you basing the idea that any Jonin would beat Rock Lee in Taijutsu on. Sure Jonin we’re stronger then Rock Lee but that is due to overall skil; if limited to a Taijutsu fight only most would loose.


 Base Guy was superior to Fifth Gate Lee as seen in the Chunin Exams when he batted Gaara's sand away effortlessly. Additionally, Izumo and Kotetsu, two weakened Tokubetsu Jonin fought the Sound Four in CS2 off-panel in CQC and only lost due to being weakened prior. This indicates a massive gap between real Jonin and the Konoha 11 (Plus Sasuke) and Sound Four. So there is no way in hell Rock Lee is beating any Jonin in any form of combat.


> As far as the evidence Lee stats tell us this. He has a 4 in speed and 4 in Taijutsu in base. Already a match for a more skilled Jonin like Kurunai who also has 4s; but then he has Gates or Drunken Fist enhancing his speed and Taijutsu further. If you don’t agree with DB stats then take into consideration portrayal; even Gai thought Lee was impressive when he used Drunken Fist and got into a cold swet at the idea of dealing with Drunk Lee again.


Dude, I'm not sure what else to say at this point. BoS Sasuke could blitz base Naruto, Sakura, Sai, and Yamato. He could also severely pressure Deidara with his speed, the same Deidara who kept up with all of Team Guy with no arms with a mere kunai in his mouth. This already indicates that BoS Sasuke >>> P1 Sasuke and P1 Sasuke is = P1 Base Lee, in fact, he's actually faster after he recovers from the ritual during the SRA as he stated he was more powerful. We also know that a weakened Drunk Lee was too fast for Kimimaro for a fact. 

So we know that characters like P1 Sasuke, P1 Lee, and Kimimaro are all in the same speed tier while BoS Sasuke is on a different level. So there is no way that Kimimaro is equal in speed to BoS Sasuke, it simply makes no sense and is impossible.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2019)

@Isaiah13000 

Dude Kimi was easily handling hundreds of KN0. KN0 blitz’d SRA Sasuke. So Kimi in base is above SRA Sasuke and so is Drunk Lee. You can say this is ether inconsistent with CE or Lee despite his injuries still improved in speed since then. Whatever you want. Kimi then got even faster with CS1.

Anyway I agree that BOS Sasuke is faster then Near Death Base Kimi. But the point is that when Healthy and with CS Kimi would be much faster then he was near Death. 

Are you just not accounting for the increase of CS and him being slower due to illness?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kimi pulls his spine out which contains the centers nervous system of the body which the brain can’t function without. He ether is able to instantly regenerate from this with no lag time as he never looses motor control or his philology is different then a normal person and he can function without his brain working. Ether way proves that he should be able to regenerate even without his brain functioning.
> 
> This is an example beyond Sawarabi no Mai of Kimi unique physiology.



He can rip his spine out because of magic. Even if you want to try to fit it into some kind of scientific explanation, it still doesn't mean he can function without a brain, as the brain is intact when he is doing it. He can keep talking, moving and seeing. You can argue that he can function without a spine, but we absolutely don't know how.



> I also greatly doubt Chidori would be able to kill Kimi on the basis of Orochimaru coveting Kimi body for how unkillable Kimi is. Considering what we’ve seen Orochimaru survive without Kimi body (which is above the scale of Chidori) it wouldn’t make much sense of Orochimaru to consider Kimi so impervious and covet his body so heavily if he could be killed by Chidori.


Purely speculative.
We actually weren't given an explanation on why Orochimaru wanted that body in particular. Maybe he thought he could tap into his potential to create new things or something.
Eitherway, we are basing this discussion off what we've seen from Kimi.
At no point he was portrayed above Jounin level, and given his performance against Gaara & Lee, it is quite a stretch to claim so.



> Whether Kimi would survive due to Regen or Regen and durability I seriously doubt he’s dying to Chidori given that hype. It’s also implied he survived FRS in the War Arc without being sealed; you a can say that was due to Edo but then he would have been sealed. So ether he dodged it, which doesn’t bode well for Sasuke chances of landing Chidori squarely on a lethal area if he could evade KCM Naruto, or he survives it Raikage style with it dining not enough damage to down him long enough for him to be sealed, which also rejects the idea of Chidori working.


There is no hype around Kimi that is relevant in part 2.
Or maybe Naruto fucked up like he did against black Zetsu, or Chiyo intervened or something. It was offpaneled, so there is no way to tell what happened during that time.
But we know for a fact that Naruto was able to outmanuver A3 when he tried, so you can brush off the notion of Kimi evading Naruto, that certainly didn't happen. Kimi is clearly a lower end tier 4.5, as he was having trouble against base Lee.



> Finally the dance of the pines would make it very dangerous to use Chidori against Kimi; as e can unpredictably extend his bones out and Sasuke could run his hand through one or more not only stopping the Chidori but damaging Sasuke heavily


I think you got the threads mixed up.
I was talking about part 1 Kakashi vs Kimi.
Part 2 Sasuke would outright blitz Kimi and basically shit on him without difficulty.

Part 1 Kakashi would simply use a clever feint via bunshin and then do the same thing.

Again, Kimimaro is nowhere near kage level. He wasn't portrayed on that level, nor he has shown the capability.


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2019)

@Grimmjowsensei

1. Okay so that same “magic” would allow him to survive when his brain isn’t functioning

2. Yes we are given an explanation:

3. In the anime Kimi evaded him and if he tripped Naruto up like BZ then he still was able to react to Naruto. Ether way we have him reacting to someone with the same speed Tier as Sasuke or higher

4. If Kimi could have been blitz like that Mifune or Naruto would have. Module kept up with Sasuke with his IAI and KCM Naruto is faster. Even logically speaking if Kimi has a 4.5 the same speed star as Sasuke when near death he’d be around Sasuke love

5. Kimi was stated to defeat Juugo and be Oros greatest servant above Kabuto. That places him Low-Kage. The fact that KCM Naruto and Mifune couldn’t beat him easily also places him at least there especially since Edos were weaker then living counter part.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 9, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> 
> 1. Okay so that same “magic” would allow him to survive when his brain isn’t functioning
> 
> ...



1 - There is no evidence of the same magic that allows him to function without a spine would do the same if he didn't have a brain.

2- Can't see the link.

3 - Haven't seen the anime, but in the manga I don't recall him reacting or evading Naruto. And even if he did, then like I said, Naruto may have simply fucked up.

4 - It was offpaneled, so there is no point to arguing what could have been. Maybe Naruto didn't want to engage when there were samurai around Kimi to avoid getting colleteral kills with FRS. As for Mifune, he wouldn't blitz shit. Actually I'd favor Kimi over him since Mifune is pretty weak.

5 - Part 1 Kabuto was owned by genin Naruto. So being above him doesn't place Kimi in low kage tier. Not even remotely close. Kabuto at best was part 1 Kakashi's level going by statements, and nowhere near his level based on feats. So the best case scenario for Kimi is mid jounin, and even that is being generous when you consider he was pitted against part 1 Lee and Gaara and was pushed to his limits.

As for his offpanel interraction with Mifune and Naruto, I don't consider that as an argument. Because it wasn't even implied that they fought.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 1 - There is no evidence of the same magic that allows him to function without a spine would do the same if he didn't have a brain.
> 
> 2- Can't see the link.
> 
> ...



1. Where is the evidence that it doesn’t. 

2. Oro, “Haha who wouldn’t want their bloodline  inheritance limit” “they possess an impenetrable skeletal frame... that can resist any type of physical attack”

3. How did Naruto fuck up...

4. Oh please why would he pull out FRS then at all. Your making up excuses now 

5. That was plot and you know it. P1 Kabuto was compared directly in strength to P1 Kakashi the guy your saying Kimi can’t beat and using as a messing stick for the bottom of Kage level. Kabuto feats against Tsunade defiantly warrant his placement on par with Kakashi. 

So Mifune was just there and did nothing; and Naruto did nothing after arriving, while watching Dozens of Samurai die to Kimi. Kishi even has Naruto and Mifune square off against Kimi and Naruto says it won’t go as it did last time; but not it’s not implied they fought. Just stop...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 9, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Where is the evidence that it doesn’t.
> 
> 2. Oro, “Haha who wouldn’t want their bloodline  inheritance limit” “they possess an impenetrable skeletal frame... that can resist any type of physical attack”
> 
> ...



1 - Absence of evidence is not evidence. I don't need to prove a negative. You make the claim that he can operate without a brain, so prove it.

2 - Ok I always thought there was more to it, so it is actually just physical resistance. Pretty underwhelming, expecially considering it is not an area where Orochimaru is lacking.

3 - He tripped against black Zetsu.

4 - I don't need to make up excuses for something that didn't happen. It is an off panel scenario, anything could have happened. I was just pointing it out.  Believe me, if Kishimoto thought KCM Naruto vs Kimi was an interesting fight, we'd at least see a glimpse of it. But he probably thought it wasn't because Kimi was being pushed to his limits by genin Naruto's peers in part 1 already.

5 - It wasn't actually plot. Kabuto in CQC is pretty terrible. He underestimated Naruto and got owned, a position Kakashi would never ever find himself in. Like I said, he was compared to Kakashi but his feats put him nowhere near Kakashi, neither does his feats against a tired and rusty Tsunade. TBH Tsunade up until War arc is probably the weakest kage we were ever introduced, both based on feats and portrayal.

From the looks of it, yeah I don't think they tried to do anything of significance. Maybe they tried to beat the shit out of him with taijutsu and he regen'd or something. That is within the realm of possibility. We've seen Naruto fight Itachi initially with taijutsu.
But seriously, without any implication or hype, we aren't going to pretend like KCM Naruto and Kimi duked it out off panel and Kimi survived. Let's just put that fanfiction to rest.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 1 - Absence of evidence is not evidence. I don't need to prove a negative. You make the claim that he can operate without a brain, so prove it.
> 
> 2 - Ok I always thought there was more to it, so it is actually just physical resistance. Pretty underwhelming, expecially considering it is not an area where Orochimaru is lacking.
> 
> ...


1. Nope you’ve made the claim that he can’t and that the same “magic” that allows him to function without a spine which would naturally cut off his brain function wouldn’t work if the brain is destroyed. Yes it’s on you

2. That again tells us how great Kimi defense is that Oro covered it even though his defense was already so high

3. Black Zetsu reacted to his attacking and tripped him with a root. If Kimi did something similar it still means he reacted 

4. So why didn’t Kimi just get off paneled and loose to KCM Naruto? Kishi obviously thought Kimi was good enough to survive that FRS and KCM Naruto clone somehow 

5. And I disagree I think they do and the manga also agrees with me as he’s stated to be on that level. So bottom line if Kimi is better then P1 Kakashi equal who you’ve stated is entry Kage level the he is low Kage. What more is their to discuss besides you covering this fact?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 10, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Nope you’ve made the claim that he can’t and that the same “magic” that allows him to function without a spine which would naturally cut off his brain function wouldn’t work if the brain is destroyed. Yes it’s on you
> 
> 2. That again tells us how great Kimi defense is that Oro covered it even though his defense was already so high
> 
> ...



1 - Why would I need to claim that a certain person can't operate without a brain ? It is common sense. You are the one arguing against it.
Also whatever magic that allows him to survive when he pulls out is spine doesn't mean it can do the same for his brain, that is false equivalence as brain =/= spine. Especially considering Kimi's main thing is bones. So burden of proof is on you.

2 - That is the problem. Orochimaru can do pretty much anything Kimimaro do, can durability-wise, there isn't much Kimi can offer him. Don't get me wrong, It is certainly an upgrade, but definitely not a significant one like say an Uchiha body.

3 - I never said he can't react to FRS. Characters slower than Kimi did. I said he wouldn't survive if Naruto went at him seriously.

4 - Because whether Kimi got off paneled or not was an insignificant detail as the ET would get released and he'd go away no matter what.

5 - Manga simply says that Kabuto is on Kakashi's level. Which means he is a jounin. Also part 1(especially pre invasion) Kakashi wasn't even remotely close to Kage level. He was never considered a Hokage candidate when Hiruzen passed away, and even in part 2 Jiraiya or Tsunade mentioned him not being ready and was only considered as the emergency Hokage when Tsunade wasn't available.

Also let's not forget that being on the same level doesn't mean equality. So Kimi being better than Kabuto doesn't necessarily mean that he is also better than Kakashi. And being better than Kakashi(which is never stated or implied) doesn't necessarily mean that he is kage level. Not even close.

Like I said previously, it would be a stretch to call Kimi a high jounin. Assuming he is even close to being kage level is total atrocity.


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## Hazuki (Mar 10, 2019)

it was never say in the manga that kimimaro was stronger then kabuto
all we know is that kabuto said that " no one can stop him"
he was talking about this specific context where konoha were weak and had no choice to send some rookies to save sasuke

also kimimaro never defeat kn naruto clone
i don't understand why some people are so blind and just rewrite the manga as it was nothing

kimimaro was an *immortal edo tensei *with help of edo hanzo ( kage level ) and edo chiyo ( kage level) and some other edo tensei
they were in front of a clone of naruto who had nothing to stop edo tensei
the only way to stop edo tensei is to seal them
and at that time the real naruto was fighting obito
the most logic reason would be that the real naruto couldn't maintain his other clones because he was in front of obito , he was out of chakra and totally exausted

you replace kimimaro edo by kid konohamaru edo tensei , the result would be the same ,that same konohamaru edo tensei immortal would be still ready to fight

i don't undertand some guy seriously


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## Soul (Mar 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. How is it not realistic Itachi speed and reflexes were effected by being less ill then Kimi was.



It's a supposition you are making to help your argument.
Not saying you are wrong or even that I disagree, but you can't be certain. That is up for interpretation.



> It’s logical to assume Kimi physical attributes also took a major hit due to his illness.



While that is correct, you can't assess the impact the illness had on him.
He was held off by Chuunin-level shinobis. Any Kage tier would dance around Chunnins even when nerfed considerably.



> 2. The way Shunshin works it’s its speed is dictated by a characters chakra.



Not really.
A shunshin is just focusing chakra on your feet to propel you in a certain direction. How good you are at it depends almost entirely on chakra control, taijutsu proficiency, etc



> Kimi has much higher stamina then Sasuke and the same CS Senjutsu to enhance.



Sasuke has better chakra control, though, which is vital to use shunshin effectively.
He also has better on-panel shunshins than Kimimaro. (vs Naruto at Orochimaru's hideout, for example).



> Kimi Shunshin should be faster then Sasukes, just like Kimi when healthy is likely faster then Sasuke and more cable in CQC



I honestly don't know how you reached that conclusion.



> 3. It’s what the stats and feats bare out. Kimi is a Cqc specialist with one of the most broken bloodlines for this purpose; so much so that Orochimaru targeted his body alongside the Uchiha and her was called the greatest of his clan; as well as it being a core ability of Kaguya



You literally said nothing of substance in this paragraph.



> 4. Okay so what’s saying he won’t be careless against Kimi. Deidara problem in general is he tends to be careless when he fights or arrogant.



Please read the rules on what IC means in the battledome.
Banking on Deidara being stupid isn't a real argument for saying that Kimimaro can defeat him.



> People have to remember that Deidara is actually only 19 Years old; and while to me that squarely puts Deidara in the genius category for how far he came in that time frame without Sharingan or Bijuu; he’s still light on the maturity and experience of other fighters.



Naruto is 17 when saved the world. To my recollection Kimimaro is 15 himself.
Age isn't really that big of a deal in this Shounen.



> 5. The first thing Kimi did when Gaara showed up is use his high speed finger bullets while closing disatance on him. Say he does this against Deidara



Why would you assume he is going to do that instead of what he did vs. Lee or Naruto?
Tenshi Sendan was used because Kimimaro was testing Gaara's Sand Defense. Deidara doesn't has that kind of defense nor he poses that problem (having to attack and defend simultaneously.



> assuming Deidara can even dodge a healthy Kimi bullets is he going to be able to form a clay creation and escape before Kimi closes that range, especially when Kimi fingee bullets can take out the clay creation before it can fly. I have my doubts



Please consider the most likely scenario (Kimimaro testing his opponent via hand to hand combat) instead of Tenshi Sendan.



> if Kimi simply goes CS and hardens his bones he can run through the bombs without issue preventing this from occurring. And then it’s GG for Deidara.



Or he just uses a clay clone to escape.
It's really not that hard to escape from Close Quarters if you are competent, especially with those bunshins.



> 6. I don’t think it’s a task too tall or necessarily and incorrect premise. When I make these threads I’m usually not completely sold on the ideas myself and I look to see if there are strong counter arguments. In this case I haven’t seen many in that it seems like a lot of people are just misunderstanding my premise of Kimi can beat these characters as Kimi will beat these characters.



I don't know man, doesn't seem that you are considering my arguments or stance on this particular scenario.
This seems to be your stance: _Kimimaro blitzes immediately (with a shunshin better than Sasuke's, arguably the best shunshin user in the manga based on feats) and opens with Tenshi Sendan (both OoC moves for him, really) and then Deidara can't escape because Kimimaro manages to harden his bones immediately to fend off C1. Then he kills Deidara._

Already stated why that won't happen, and you aren't addressing my points head on. Instead, you are listing a few points as a reply repeating your stance.
Not calling you biased or anything, by the way. It seems that we are now in agreement that Deidara wins 10/10 times if he goes airborne, something that you conceded over this debate. We probably just see things differently, and that's fine. I just don't think you have enough evidence to think that Kimimaro can take it, based on how I interpretated the manga.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2019)

@Soul 

1. We also can’t be certain about most things we discuss in the NBD, it’s about what is likely. It’s likely that Kimi reflexes were hindered by illness

2. Kimi was dancing around Naruto and Lee, with the later only landing a single blow in a Taijutsu match (his specialty) with a situational power up of Drunken Fist. Gaara was the only one who actually gave Kimi trouble, and I doubt Gaara was still Chuunin level as of the SRA Arc. As far as Jonin giving Kages trouble, we saw P1 Kabuto give Tsunade trouble just due to her being rusty; so I can imagine a weaker Jonin level character could give a weaker Kage-class individual trouble who has a steeper handicap then just being Rusty

3.The databook blantantly says Shunshin is based on the quantity of Chakra used and as far as skill goes no of those things are mentione, it’s a D-Rank Technique that doesn’t require much skill to use. So that’s just not accurate to how Shunshin was stated to work. Shunshin activation is determined by reaction speed as is the activation of all jutsu and its speed is determined by how much chakra is put into it.

4. Kimi never used Shunshin so how are you comparing them? 

5. IC Deidara is careless; if you want to give Deidara a different personality where he isn’t careless anymore then it wouldn’t be Deidara. Anyway we’ve seen Deidara engage Sasuke at short range so I have no reason to believe it’s not possible that he’d do the same against Kimi 

6. Doesn’t mean they don’t lack experience; also some character show their age more then others. 

7. Kimi used Tenshi Shinden because Gaara unlike Lee and Naruto wasn’t choosing to engage Kimi in CQC but rather attack him from a distance with his sand. I’m assuming Deidara wouldn’t try to fight Kimi in Taijutsu; and would also attack him with C1 from a distance; hence why I think it’s likely Kimi will use Finger bullets in response as it’s hus goto distance attack

8. It is hard when the enemy is far more capable in CQC then yourself. And yes it’s possible he could still escape with a feint but it’s also possible he’d die before then. Once again here I’ll remind you that I’m just saying Kimi can win, not that he does. Deidara is also probably Kimi worst match up among the Low-Kage due to his high offense being able hard coubter Kimi Regen and his Long Range preference. So I’m defiantly not claim Kimi wins for sure.

9. I feel like I addressed all your points above. Just becuause your points don’t change my mind, doesn’t mean my mind isn’t open to other ideas; however I will say that lack of solid arguments against Kimi being Low-Kage here have pretty much convinced me that he is; the best I’ve seen is you arguing Deidara wins, who is Kimi worst Low-Kage match up and even then as I said I can see some scenarios where Deidara would loose


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Isaiah13000
> 
> Dude Kimi was easily handling hundreds of KN0. KN0 blitz’d SRA Sasuke. So Kimi in base is above SRA Sasuke and so is Drunk Lee. You can say this is ether inconsistent with CE or Lee despite his injuries still improved in speed since then. Whatever you want. Kimi then got even faster with CS1.


 It's an inconsistency then, because Lee was stated to be slower and less reactive than before. So now we have something like First Gate Lee > Drunk Lee > base Kimimaro > KN0 Naruto > 2T Sasuke


> Anyway I agree that BOS Sasuke is faster then Near Death Base Kimi. But the point is that when Healthy and with CS Kimi would be much faster then he was near Death.
> 
> Are you just not accounting for the increase of CS and him being slower due to illness?


Sure, but there's no way to determine how much faster he'd be. I doubt he'd be so much faster that he is on par with BoS Sasuke and can blitz jonin levels and pressure Kage levels with his speed.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> It's an inconsistency then, because Lee was stated to be slower and less reactive than before. So now we have something like First Gate Lee > Drunk Lee > base Kimimaro > KN0 Naruto > 2T Sasuke
> 
> Sure, but there's no way to determine how much faster he'd be. I doubt he'd be so much faster that he is on par with BoS Sasuke and can blitz jonin levels and pressure Kage levels with his speed.


Okay so then we should go with what was lshown last where Lee is faster then Sasuke which fits the stat totals. So as I said the stats are valid in this instance. Base Lee having a 4 and Sick-Kimi having a 4.5, which fits as Kimi was outspeeding Lee before he got Drunk. Then when he got Drunk and his speed increased he was maybe a bit faster then Kimi so he probably also rose to a 4.5. This is the same tier Sasuke in P2 is at. So essentially Kimi while Sick is a similar Tier as Sasuke; now Sasuke has Sharingan prediction to enhance him further, but Kimi when healthy should also be enhanced further. Both then have CS on top of this. Hence why I say they should be comparable speed wise, with Kimi being better at Taijutsu


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## Soul (Mar 14, 2019)

Oh, just for the record. Keep in mind that Deidara might know about Kimimaro since Akatsuki was keeping tabs on Deidara and Sasori (Deidara's partner) was Orochimaru's partner before + Kimimaro's Clan was well known by some.



Turrin said:


> 1. We also can’t be certain about most things we discuss in the NBD, it’s about what is likely. It’s likely that Kimi reflexes were hindered by illness



It's not likely that he was hindered as much as you are making him out to be, either.



> 2. Kimi was dancing around Naruto and Lee, with the later only landing a single blow in a Taijutsu match (his specialty) with a situational power up of Drunken Fist.



Lee was able to go toe to toe with him, though.
They were evenly matched until Kimimaro used the bones, but Lee was fast enough to keep up with him.

A Kage would certainly be able to dispose of a Chuunin pretty easily, far easier than what Kimimaro did.



> Gaara was the only one who actually gave Kimi trouble, and I doubt Gaara was still Chuunin level as of the SRA Arc.



Yeah, I can see that.
Gaara killed Kimimaro even while being less than a Kage but Kimi was sick. Lee did more than what he is supposed to do vs Kages but let's say his Taijutsu is pretty great (which is correct) and Kimimaro wanted to test him out.



> As far as Jonin giving Kages trouble, we saw P1 Kabuto give Tsunade trouble just due to her being rusty; so I can imagine a weaker Jonin level character could give a weaker Kage-class individual trouble who has a steeper handicap then just being Rusty



Tsunade didn't fight like a Kage, though.
She was rusty and pretty injured (+ tired and hangover) by the time she started to fight seriously. So not exactly apples to apples.



> 3.The databook blantantly says Shunshin is based on the quantity of Chakra used and as far as skill goes no of those things are mentione, it’s a D-Rank Technique that doesn’t require much skill to use. So that’s just not accurate to how Shunshin was stated to work. Shunshin activation is determined by reaction speed as is the activation of all jutsu and its speed is determined by how much chakra is put into it.



Please refer to the training used before on chakra control (Kakashi's training in the Zabuza Arc and Jiraiya's training with Naruto when they meet). Shunshin doesn't require much skill to use, sure, but it depends on skill to use it successfully in battle. Otherwise everyone would use it successfully.



> 4. Kimi never used Shunshin so how are you comparing them?



You are the one saying that Kimi's shunshin is better than Sasuke.



> 5. IC Deidara is careless; if you want to give Deidara a different personality where he isn’t careless anymore then it wouldn’t be Deidara. Anyway we’ve seen Deidara engage Sasuke at short range so I have no reason to believe it’s not possible that he’d do the same against Kim



Alright, I'll concede the Deidara's IC argument _if _you concede that Kimimaro won't go for Tenshi Sendan immediately.
At the very least Deidara will start with the attack. Maybe those explosives from underground.



> 7. Kimi used Tenshi Shinden because Gaara unlike Lee and Naruto wasn’t choosing to engage Kimi in CQC but rather attack him from a distance with his sand. I’m assuming Deidara wouldn’t try to fight Kimi in Taijutsu; and would also attack him with C1 from a distance; hence why I think it’s likely Kimi will use Finger bullets in response as it’s hus goto distance attack



Well, that is different than blitzing immediately, which makes sense.
That much I can agree with.



> 8. It is hard when the enemy is far more capable in CQC then yourself.



Going as per databook (I am not that fond of it, but let's try it), Deidara is decent at Taijutsu, but pretty capable of escaping if yo uask me (4.5 inteligence and speed). Still find it really hard to believe that Kimimaro just one-shots him.
Deidara's resilience to pain + resourcefulness will get him away more often than not.



> And yes it’s possible he could still escape with a feint but it’s also possible he’d die before then.



Something that I feel you are banking to strongly on, even if is far less likely to happen.



> Once again here I’ll remind you that I’m just saying Kimi can win, not that he does.



True.



> 9. I feel like I addressed all your points above



You have, but some seem pretty far-fetched to me. Kimimaro one-shotting Deidara on a blitz and his shunshin being better than Sasuke are my main issues. Without those Kimimaro has little to no chance in most scenarios.



> the best I’ve seen is you arguing Deidara wins



You don't seem to know or remember how methodical I am. Deidara is just the first guy that came to mind.
I want to settle him before moving to other characters. This is far from over.

__________________________________________​
Based on my observations here is how I think this fight would go, according to what we have talked so far and accounting for what he should be able to do (your arguments). Feeling this is a bit _too_ generous, but finding a common ground is all about meeting the other debater halfway.

After a few seconds of these two of looking around, Deidara opens up with C1 to test the enemy, which Kimimaro either dodges or deflects. As soon as this happens Kimimaro knows he has to blitz to get this into CQC. Deidara himself knows that this guy is no slouch and that he has to create distance. Deidara creates a clay bunshin, a bird to escape or the C2 dragon to bring more firepower.

Deidara can probably escape without much issues if he goes for the bird, because that's quite fast. The bunshin may also work, but that's a bit more dangerous. The C2 Dragon is Kimimaro's best case scenario, as he can probably dodge everything it throws at him. From here the game is simple; GTFO or die. C4 clone will not enter the conversation because that's OoC, but if he manages to escape and get airborne the match is over.

For me Deidara takes this with moderate difficulty 7/10 times, and one of those ten he manages to escape the initial blitz severely injured but his pain tolerance (Gaara did crush his whole arm) and resourcefulness will get him away from trouble (Keep in mind that Deidara can go underground as well and Kimimaro's Sawarabi no Mai is just as OoC as C4). Maybe Kimimaro eats an exploding clone or is taken off guard on those 1/10 scenarios.
I'll give you the 1 out of 5 times (or even less) to him being able to injure Deidara enough for him to slow down and or bleed to death, but I am telling you, it's a real uphill battle for Kimimaro. Deidara can use several clay things to put between Kimimaro and him to at least slow him down, and blitzing is Kimimaro's only hope.

Thoughts?


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2019)

1. Why?

2. Where is the evidence that any Kage could dispose Drunk Lee easier in a Taijutsu match then Kimi. Are you just throwing that out there or have something to back it up

3. So being tired and rusty is worse then being hours from death...

4. Chakra control has nothing to do with Shunshin otherwise show me the panel/statemwnt that says it Does. We are told how Shunshin works in the DB. The reason no everyone uses it in battle like Sasuke for example is because you need suitable reflexes to activate it in time to avoid high speed attack or high reflexes to attack after using Shunshin effectively; if you reflexes are t high enough in comparison to your opponent you won’t be able to activate it in time, as is the case with any Jutsu.

5. By the premise of Shunshin it would be better.  Your saying well we didn’t see it so can’t be as good; which the absence of evidence isn’t an argument when we know the mechanics of the Technique

6.  I won’t concede that Kimi wouldn’t start with Tenshi Sendan because we’ve seen him do so against Gaara right at the start. Deidara IC acts the fool consistently underestimating his enemies too.

7. I never said Kimi would blitz Deidara I said he’d close the distance with Tenshi Sendan or Shunshin; and then overwhelm Deidara with superior Taijutsu to Sasuke and his ability to tank C1

8. Deidara needed to use the explosive force of C1 to push Sasuke away to escape, if Kimi can tank the bombs I don’t see what Deidara is doing once he’s trapped in CQC to escape.

9. The main issue I have with the scenario you propose is that while Deidara decides he needs to take to the skies and flee , and then makes his clay bird or whatever Kimi seems to be doing nothing despite being the faster character and you admiring he’d know he needs to close the distance. So more realistically Kimi would instantly close the distance with shunshin and attack Deidara disrupting him or use Tenshi Sendan disrupting him.

But I would like to hear your points on other Kages; I mean I do think Deidara odds of victory here are higher then Kimi in most scenarios due to type match up, anyway. Though I would put it more at 6/10


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Okay so then we should go with what was lshown last where Lee is faster then Sasuke which fits the stat totals. So as I said the stats are valid in this instance. Base Lee having a 4 and Sick-Kimi having a 4.5, which fits as Kimi was outspeeding Lee before he got Drunk. Then when he got Drunk and his speed increased he was maybe a bit faster then Kimi so he probably also rose to a 4.5. This is the same tier Sasuke in P2 is at. So essentially Kimi while Sick is a similar Tier as Sasuke; now Sasuke has Sharingan prediction to enhance him further, but Kimi when healthy should also be enhanced further. Both then have CS on top of this. Hence why I say they should be comparable speed wise, with Kimi being better at Taijutsu


I agree that we should go with what was shown most recently, but I still don't agree with the whole stats thing. There's no way SRA Lee would've been able to blitz Naruto, Sai, Sakura, and Yamato the way BoS Sasuke could do in base. Or force Deidara to fight from afar because he was too fast to keep up with. That does not support Lee's portrayal at that point at all, nor does it support Kimimaro's. Hell, P2 Lee, Neji, and Tenten working together couldn't land a hit on a Shapeshifting Kisame's (who has 1/3rd of real Kisame's physical ability) Water Clones who have 1/10th the strength of the original. He also couldn't land a hit on Deidara with no arms, despite having assistance from Neji and base Guy. So this paints a picture already that says Deidara & Kisame >>> P2 base Lee in speed, and you're trying to argue that P1 Drunk Lee is a 4.5 in speed like BoS Sasuke? Can't you see how that makes no sense now?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I agree that we should go with what was shown most recently, but I still don't agree with the whole stats thing. There's no way SRA Lee would've been able to blitz Naruto, Sai, Sakura, and Yamato the way BoS Sasuke could do in base. Or force Deidara to fight from afar because he was too fast to keep up with. That does not support Lee's portrayal at that point at all, nor does it support Kimimaro's. Hell, P2 Lee, Neji, and Tenten working together couldn't land a hit on a Shapeshifting Kisame's (who has 1/3rd of real Kisame's physical ability) Water Clones who have 1/10th the strength of the original. He also couldn't land a hit on Deidara with no arms, despite having assistance from Neji and base Guy. So this paints a picture already that says Deidara & Kisame >>> P2 base Lee in speed, and you're trying to argue that P1 Drunk Lee is a 4.5 in speed like BoS Sasuke? Can't you see how that makes no sense now?


Sasuke was blitzing them through the use of Sunshin, which Lee can’t use do to his inability to use Ninjutsu.

Shoten Kisame has the same physical abilities as the original just 30% the chakra. Lee didn’t loose to water clones in Taijutsu he got caught off guard by the clones Turing into a water prison.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke was blitzing them through the use of Sunshin, which Lee can’t use do to his inability to use Ninjutsu.


 That still would've been included in his speed stat considering it's a basic ability that pretty much all shinobi have. 


> Shoten Kisame has the same physical abilities as the original just 30% the chakra. Lee didn’t loose to water clones in Taijutsu he got caught off guard by the clones Turing into a water prison.


That's not true, they were said to be limited in strength and in the jutsu they can use. You're also missing my point, a clone with 1/10th the power of a clone that has 1/3rd the power of Kisame was able to block Lee's attack in time. This illustrates a monumental gap in speed among them, and P2 Lee > P1 Lee.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 14, 2019)

How is this still going


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 14, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> How is this still going



Turrin is a fucking LEGEND!


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 14, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Turrin is a fucking LEGEND!



Of refusing to give up after being wrong?


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That still would've been included in his speed stat considering it's a basic ability that pretty much all shinobi have.
> That's not true, they were said to be limited in strength and in the jutsu they can use. You're also missing my point, a clone with 1/10th the power of a clone that has 1/3rd the power of Kisame was able to block Lee's attack in time. This illustrates a monumental gap in speed among them, and P2 Lee > P1 Lee.


1. Ninjutsu isn’t included in speed stats so no

2. The shouten has less power because they had less chakra to use their more taxing Jutsu; not because their abilities were lower as they were perfect replicas. From DB3:
picture of Itachi's clone]
←The appearance of the person on whom the "Shapeshifting Technique" is performed is 100% identical to the original person.

[picture of Itachi's clone performing the Great Fireball Technique]
←Of course, the techniques used by the copy are the same as those of the original person. Even the pride of the "Uchiha clan," the "Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique"**, can be flawlessly reproduced!!

3. I’m not missing your point it’s just wrong Shouten Kisame has the same speed and Taijutsu ability as the original. In the attack your referring Lee was doing a leg-drop from the air so he was free falling it wasn’t even his foot Speed. 


When Lee actually jumps at Kisame with his footspeed and attacks him he move faster then him kicking his sword away:

Also bare in mind we don’t even know if Lees weights were off here or not


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Ninjutsu isn’t included in speed stats so no.


 Fine, I'll concede on this point. 


> 2. The shouten has less power because they had less chakra to use their more taxing Jutsu; not because their abilities were lower as they were perfect replicas. From DB3:
> picture of Itachi's clone]
> ←The appearance of the person on whom the "Shapeshifting Technique" is performed is 100% identical to the original person.
> 
> ...


 I'll concede on this point.


> 3. I’m not missing your point it’s just wrong Shouten Kisame has the same speed and Taijutsu ability as the original. In the attack your referring Lee was doing a leg-drop from the air so he was free falling it wasn’t even his foot Speed.
> 
> 
> When Lee actually jumps at Kisame with his footspeed and attacks him he move faster then him kicking his sword away:
> ...


Kisame was focused on Guy when Lee managed to do that though. He was clearly taken by surprise and distracted when that happened as seen in the panel you posted. So that isn't the best example.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 14, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> Of refusing to give up after being wrong?



I prefer to view it as LEGENDARY STAMINA!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2019)

@Isaiah13000 

So even if you want to say that Kisame was distracted with Gai; that still leaves us with no reason to believe Lee couldn’t be faster then Kisame and no reason to doubt  the stats. 

The main issue you seem to be having; is the belief that their has to be a huge gap in physical ability between Jonin / Kage and all the Part 1 rookies, but that’s not how the Manga since there are a lot of specialized areas. A Genin/Chunin who specializes in a specific area can be as good or better then a Kage. For example Jirobo is physically stronger then most Kage; and he was beat by P1 Choji in physical strength; both of them aren’t even Jonin level. That’s just one example; another is Naruto and Sasuke having easily Top Jonin Ninjutsu techs with Rasengan and Chidori, despite not being Jonin level at the time they got them. Lee is a Taijutsu specialist; not surprising he has Taijutsu that matches many Jonin and Kages especially with the Drunk amp.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Isaiah13000
> 
> So even if you want to say that Kisame was distracted with Gai; that still leaves us with no reason to believe Lee couldn’t be faster then Kisame and no reason to doubt  the stats.


 Fair enough, P2 Lee being faster isn't that ridiculous. 


> The main issue you seem to be having; is the belief that their has to be a huge gap in physical ability between Jonin / Kage and all the Part 1 rookies, but that’s not how the Manga since there are a lot of specialized areas. A Genin/Chunin who specializes in a specific area can be as good or better then a Kage. For example Jirobo is physically stronger then most Kage; and he was beat by P1 Choji in physical strength; both of them aren’t even Jonin level. That’s just one example; another is Naruto and Sasuke having easily Top Jonin Ninjutsu techs with Rasengan and Chidori, despite not being Jonin level at the time they got them. Lee is a Taijutsu specialist; not surprising he has Taijutsu that matches many Jonin and Kages especially with the Drunk amp.


 Aside from strength, there has to be a large gap. The fight between the Sound Four and Genma and Raido who aren't even real Jonin (who were also tired) proves that. It took four of them to defeat two exhausted tokubetsu jonin who are weaker than real jonin. That is how large the gap is between chunin levels and jonin levels let alone kage levels.


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## JJ Baloney (Mar 14, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Dude out here struggling against genin Lee who hadn't fought since his surgery and can't even access all the gates and SRA Gaara and we got a thread talking about him fighting kage level ninja.


Thread should have just ended here.


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## Speedyamell (Mar 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Mei
> Mifune
> Chiyo
> Hidan
> ...


Nearly half this people should be well above low kage I feel..

That aside, darui, hidan & maybe mifune are the only I can see him beat


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## Soul (Mar 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Why?



Why what?



> 2. Where is the evidence that any Kage could dispose Drunk Lee easier in a Taijutsu match then Kimi. Are you just throwing that out there or have something to back it up



The sheer gap of strength between characters? Is no secret that a Kage is well versed in ever facet of fighting.
Do you believe that Part I Lee can do anything to Post Time Skip Naruto?



> 3. So being tired and rusty is worse then being hours from death...



And hangover. And petrified. And bleeding out.
Sozo Saisei is just that good. 99% of the fighters would have died in Tsunade's place.



> 4. Chakra control has nothing to do with Shunshin otherwise show me the panel/statemwnt that says it Does.



We have been shown what shunshin in a fight looks like, and how chakra control works.
There is no one panel that says it outright but the shinobis with best chakra control, speed and CQCs are the ones that have shown the best shunshin feats in all of the manga.



> We are told how Shunshin works in the DB.



Ah so there is the confusion.
To my understanding, the Databook refers that to the thing that shinobis do to flee or dodge attacks (Raikage dodging Amaterasu) .
The shunshin I am talking about  . And yes, those are two different things.



> The reason no everyone uses it in battle like Sasuke for example is because you need suitable reflexes to activate it in time to avoid high speed attack or high reflexes to attack after using Shunshin effectively; if you reflexes are t high enough in comparison to your opponent you won’t be able to activate it in time, as is the case with any Jutsu.



I agree, it's good that we clarified that. So Kimimaro, in my opinion, might be vulnerable after using it.
Deidara planting some C1 snakes, spiders, etc in front of him would definitely damage Kimimaro, since there is no real reason to move quickly in front of Deidara and defend himself when the intent is to attack.



> 5. By the premise of Shunshin it would be better.  Your saying well we didn’t see it so can’t be as good; which the absence of evidence isn’t an argument when we know the mechanics of the Technique



That technique is rarely used in battle (if at all) because of what you said literally a paragraph ago.
Only a select few are able to use that in battle. The burden of proof for it to be effectively applicable in combat by Kimimaro is on you.



> 6. I won’t concede that Kimi wouldn’t start with Tenshi Sendan because we’ve seen him do so against Gaara right at the start. Deidara IC acts the fool consistently underestimating his enemies too.



Again, Kimimaro only did that when he figured out Gaara's sand and how that would pose a problem for him, a CQC fighter.
Doesn't make sense for Kimimaro to do that here until Deidara attacks.



> 7. I never said Kimi would blitz Deidara I said he’d close the distance with Tenshi Sendan or Shunshin; and then overwhelm Deidara with superior Taijutsu to Sasuke and his ability to tank C1



Then we are on the same page.
Although I am sure even you would agree that Deidara can recognize that Kimimaro is capable of figuring it out that C1 won't work and go from there. His best bet is to go airborne, which is why I think he'll do just that.
Kimimaro having better taijutsu than Hebi Sasuke is iffy by the way. But I am guessing that's an agree-to-disagree opinion.



> 8. Deidara needed to use the explosive force of C1 to push Sasuke away to escape, if Kimi can tank the bombs I don’t see what Deidara is doing once he’s trapped in CQC to escape.



Kimi might be able to take little damage from the bombs, but his body will move backwards regardless of that. His weight is not that different from other characters.



> 9. The main issue I have with the scenario you propose is that while Deidara decides he needs to take to the skies and flee , and then makes his clay bird or whatever Kimi seems to be doing nothing despite being the faster character and you admiring he’d know he needs to close the distance.



Because if Kimimaro can tank C1 and C2 takes a bit more time the logical option is to do just that.
You just happen to believe that Kimimaro can get close to him and kill him without him being able to fly away, I just disagree with that opinion.



> So more realistically Kimi would instantly close the distance with shunshin and attack Deidara disrupting him or use Tenshi Sendan disrupting him.



What if Deidara goes underground as he has done before? No real way for Kimimaro to get him, right?
Or his strategy to get Gaara.
Crafty things like that is why I believe he will escape if he is in a tough spot more often than not.



> But I would like to hear your points on other Kages



I believe Kisame, Kakashi and Konan should definitely kill him.
Don't even remember if he can deal with a sword with chakra being channeled on it. If so Mifune can get him, too. Hidan's ritual can kill Kimimaro as well.
Chiyo to me isn't Kage level by the way.



> I mean I do think Deidara odds of victory here are higher then Kimi in most scenarios due to type match up, anyway. Though I would put it more at 6/10



8/10 is being generous if you ask me (or most posters). I am trying to meet you halfway.
Feels like you are underestimating Deidara. He is above a low-tier Kage in my eyes. Just had a problem when fighting the Sharingan because of personal trauma thanks to Itachi.



ShinAkuma said:


> Turrin is a fucking LEGEND!



How I (and possibly others) haven't proven that Kimimaro isn't capable of defeating every person on his list?
Turrin is doing alright this time around, sure, but he is still wrong about the premise of his thread if you ask me. He literally just conceded even when holding some opinions in his favor that don't add up. He and others, myself included, just have too much free time and most of the other threads in the Battledome are just boring or talk about characters too overpowered for it to be fun and/or challenging.


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## NamesClassified (Mar 20, 2019)

Apolgies for the late reply.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Manga was over at that point, referencing an outside source could in no way hurt the integrity of the manga and what would come after that(meaning Boruto) wasn't Kishimoto's product anyways.


I'm not referencing some coy easter egg here slick, an entire panel was dedicated to bringing notice to events that would occur in the novel. The integrity of the manga has no barring on the definition of canon as it pertains to a fictional series.

Shueisha(IP owner) created a timeline and Kishimoto references events novel events twice(Chp 700 and ).


Grimmjowsensei said:


> So nah, it ain't canon as it is created by a different author on a different medium.


I can cite an examples of canon material created by a different author on a different medium if you wish.

Besides, the owner of an IP can be the one who dictates what is canon, not necessarily the author.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 20, 2019)

Didn't even read the OP but based on the title alone, I'm negging Turrin.

Kimimaro maybe beat Part 1 Gaara high-difficulty and that guy without Shukaku isn't close to Kage-level.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 20, 2019)

NamesClassified said:


> Apolgies for the late reply.
> I'm not reference some coy Easter Egg here slick, an entire panel was dedicated to bringing notice to events that would occur in the novel. The integrity of the manga has no barring on the definition of canon as it pertains to a fictional series.
> 
> Shueisha(IP owner) created a timeline and Kishimoto references events novel events twice(Chp 700 and ).


Doesn't change what I said.
When Kishimoto referenced the novel, his manga was over at that point.
Whatever came after is no longer his. So who fucking cares.



> I can cite an examples of canon material created by a different author on a different medium if you wish.
> 
> Besides, the owner of an IP can be the one who dictates what is canon, not necessarily the author.


Owner of the IP didn't write the manga, so what they say have 0 bearing over what is canon or not. 
They obviously want Boruto to be able to use Naruto's legacy as they want to make money. But that's about it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Mar 20, 2019)

Kimimaro bones blocked unnamed Samurai Chakra Blades
Implies that means he could block BoS Sasuke chidori infused blades because of that
BoS Sasuke > Kimimaro


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## Siskebabas (Mar 20, 2019)

What the fuck is going on here? He loses to the kages


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## NamesClassified (Mar 20, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Doesn't change what I said.
> When Kishimoto referenced the novel, his manga was over at that point.
> Whatever came after is no longer his. So who fucking cares.


What you said was weird. By your own admission, *Canon material=what Kishimoto puts in the manga*.

Is Naruto not the 7th Hokage because his manga was over at that point? Is Boruto nonexistent because the manga was in the process of ending?


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Owner of the IP didn't write the manga, so what they say have 0 bearing over what is canon or not.
> They obviously want Boruto to be able to use Naruto's legacy as they want to make money. But that's about it.


So the owners of the IP have no say on the IP they own?

Lets use my profile pic as an example. Devil May Cry hasn't had the same original director or writer since the first installment. Are the sequels/ animated series non canon?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 21, 2019)

NamesClassified said:


> What you said was weird. By your own admission, *Canon material=what Kishimoto puts in the manga*.


True.



> Is Naruto not the 7th Hokage because his manga was over at that point? Is Boruto nonexistent because the manga was in the process of ending?


Is Naruto becoming the 7th Hokage written by someone else?
Is Naruto becoming the hokage a theme Kishimoto introduced in chapter 1 ?

Do you have any idea what you are talking about ?



> So the owners of the IP have no say on the IP they own?


They didn't create Naruto, Kishimoto did. Suits don't have creative authority over Naruto. Kishimoto simply passed the torch, no one gives a fuck what the suits do afterwards.
Like I said, they want to expand the Narutoverse into books, and another manga, all created by different people.



> Lets use my profile pic as an example. Devil May Cry hasn't had the same original director or writer since the first installment. Are the sequels/ animated series non canon?


Irrelevant.
Naruto is written and illustrated by Kishimoto, it never changed hands.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NamesClassified (Mar 21, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Is Naruto becoming the 7th Hokage written by someone else?
> Is Naruto becoming the hokage a theme Kishimoto introduced in chapter 1 ?
> 
> Do you have any idea what you are talking about ?


Was Mirai going to the hot springs in chapter 700 not written by Kishimoto?

Was Kakashi's conversation with Naruto at said hotsprings not present in both the novel and Naruto Gaiden? Did Kishimoto not illustrate said novel?

Themes are off topic.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> They didn't create Naruto, Kishimoto did. Suits don't have creative authority over Naruto. Kishimoto simply passed the torch, no one gives a fuck what the suits do afterwards.


You may be indifferent to what the suits do after, but the threads on this site featuring Boruto material says otherwise.

Kishimoto supervising for Boruto proves otherwise.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Irrelevant.
> Naruto is written and illustrated by Kishimoto, it never changed hands.


Devil May Cry was written and directed by Kamiya, yet shit changed later on. Suit's at Capcom didn't care, fans didn't care.

Star Wars was written in directed by George Lucas from jump street, yet the newest Star Wars trilogy which is not written and directed by the OG is regarded as canon.

Metal Gear Solid was co written and directed by Kojima for 30 years, but Portable Op's(an entry he didn't direct) is still referenced as canon

Plenty of media possess different writers, yet no fan denounces them as long as the IP owner is distributing them.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 21, 2019)

NamesClassified said:


> Was Mirai going to the hot springs in chapter 700 not written by Kishimoto?
> 
> Was Kakashi's conversation with Naruto at said hotsprings not present in both the novel and Naruto Gaiden? Did Kishimoto not illustrate said novel?
> 
> Themes are off topic.


Themes aren't off topic.
You are basically trying to pass off material written by someone else as canon, and to prove your point you are using material written by Kishimoto. How does that even work ?


> You may be indifferent to what the suits do after, but the threads on this site featuring Boruto material says otherwise.


This is still called the Naruto battledome. And I everthing I say is within the context of Naruto.
It is near impossible to discuss the "Naruto Franchise(anime,movies, books, boruto)" under the same roof because there is no seamless transition between them.



> Kishimoto supervising for Boruto proves otherwise.


That's why I said Boruto can be considered "semi canon" at best because he is superivising it, but still it is a different manga, so it should have it's own section.
It would be a legit cross over if it was made by the same author and if it had some consistency.
Boruto and the novels are not canon for the same reason why anime fillers aren't canon.
This is not open to debate.



> Devil May Cry was written and directed by Kamiya, yet shit changed later on. Suit's at Capcom didn't care, fans didn't care.
> 
> Star Wars was written in directed by George Lucas from jump street, yet the newest Star Wars trilogy which is not written and directed by the OG is regarded as canon.
> 
> ...



Naruto never changed hands. Naruto the manga was written and illustrated by the same guy from the first chapter to the last.
Those examples you provided have nothing to do with Naruto.

Also I highly doubt the fans of the Original Starwars would consider anything disney owns as canon anyways.


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## NamesClassified (Mar 21, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Themes aren't off topic.
> You are basically trying to pass off material written by someone else as canon, and to prove your point you are using material written by Kishimoto. How does that even work ?


If two manga dedicated to referencing novel events can be written off as irrelevant, then themes mean little to me.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> This is still called the Naruto battledome. And I everthing I say is within the context of Naruto.
> It is near impossible to discuss the "Naruto Franchise(anime,movies, books, boruto)" under the same roof because there is no seamless transition between them.
> 
> 
> That's why I said Boruto can be considered "semi canon" at best because he is superivising it, but still it is a different manga, so it should have it's own section.


Boruto is billed as a sequel to the Naruto manga by the owners of the intellectual property. That constitutes seamless transition.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> It would be a legit cross over if it was made by the same author and if it had some consistency.
> Boruto and the novels are not canon for the same reason why anime fillers aren't canon.
> This is not open to debate.


Anime fillers don't get referenced twice in the canonical medium. Anime fillers don't get entire timeline presentations by the owners of the IP.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto never changed hands. Naruto the manga was written and illustrated by the same guy from the first chapter to the last.
> Those examples you provided have nothing to do with Naruto.


Boruto is billed as the direct sequel to the Naruto manga by the owners of Naruto. The hands have been changed.


Those examples that i've sited are examples of media that have possesed both different writers and (in the case of DMC) different mediums, yet still maintain unquestionable canonicity.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also I highly doubt the fans of the Original Starwars would consider anything disney owns as canon anyways.


But still, Disney now owns Lucas Films. It'd be like me going to a tattoo parlor and letting them tattoo my arm. They may have designed my tattoo, but at the end of the day it's still my arm. 

If I want to erase the tattoo or add more to its core design, then as the owner I have that right.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 21, 2019)

NamesClassified said:


> If two manga dedicated to referencing novel events can be written off as irrelevant, then themes mean little to me.


They are irrelevant because they aren't created by the creator of the series. So you can't draw a comparison between them and original material.



> Boruto is billed as a sequel to the Naruto manga by the owners of the intellectual property. That constitutes seamless transition.


It doesn't, because the owners didn't create Naruto, nor they are creating Boruto.  They just own the publication rights.
Like I said, suits have 0 creative contribution to the product.
So It is pretty far from a seamless transition.
Becomes even more obvious when you realize that the whole Boruto timeline power levels are a complete mess.



> Anime fillers don't get referenced twice in the canonical medium. Anime fillers don't get entire timeline presentations by the owners of the IP.



I don't care what the owners of the IP do, but fair point to the former.



> Boruto is billed as the direct sequel to the Naruto manga by the owners of Naruto. The hands have been changed.
> 
> Those examples that i've sited are examples of media that have possesed both different writers and (in the case of DMC) different mediums, yet still maintain unquestionable canonicity.



You'd have a point if whoever took on Naruto franchise kept Naruto going instead of creating a different manga with a different name.
Pretty clear that Kishimoto didn't want anyone fucking up his legacy.




> But still, Disney now owns Lucas Films. It'd be like me going to a tattoo parlor and letting them tattoo my arm. They may have designed my tattoo, but at the end of the day it's still my arm.
> 
> If I want to erase the tattoo or had more to its core design, then as the owner I have that right.



No one cares about the suits.
All they want to do is to milk the existing product and make money off its brand name.
They have 0 creative contribution. The moment the creative owner sells the rights, and someone else takes over, it becomes something else.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 21, 2019)

@Turrin You make some decent points about the specialization thing, but how can there not be a large gap between chunin and jonin when it took four chunin levels to defeat two tired tokubetsu jonin?


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## baski (Mar 21, 2019)

How do you even respond to all these posts OP?
Damn.








Kimimaro is significantly weaker than PT 1 Kakashi. That much was made clear


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## baski (Mar 21, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So Kakashi is one of the, if not the weakest kage. He is an outlier as he probably didn't take the job because he was the strongest in the village.
> 
> In otherwords he is not a proper representetive.


I see this a lot but aside from Naruto and Sakura, who in Konoha is actually stronger than Kakashi Post-War? Can't think of anyone.
Naruto was a genin in addition to being a bonehead who clearly wasn't ready for the non-battle aspects of being a Kage, and Sakura never wanted the job, so the only choice was Kakashi.
I mean a case could be made he was the second strongest after Naruto. And look at his contemporaries in other villages. They don't exactly blow him out of the water except for Gaara. 
I don't see why people talk about him as if the sentiment while choosing him was "Well somebody has to do it lol"


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## NamesClassified (Mar 21, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> They are irrelevant because they aren't created by the creator of the series. So you can't draw a comparison between them and original material.


The creator of the series saw them as relevant enough that he illustrated the novel and canonized events that would take place in said novel both his manga was finished and .


Grimmjowsensei said:


> It doesn't, because the owners didn't create Naruto, nor they are creating Boruto.  They just own the publication rights.
> 
> So It is pretty far from a seamless transition.
> 
> ...


From what i'm seeing online, it seems your right. Kishimoto has copyright. But he himself gave Mikio Ikemoto the rights to pen the sequel.

If Shuiesha billed Boruto as a direct sequel to Naruto and Kishimoto gave his ok, then what about it problematic?


Grimmjowsensei said:


> All they want to do is to milk the existing product and make money off its brand name.
> They have 0 creative contribution. The moment the creative owner sells the rights, and someone else takes over, it becomes something else.


We will have to agree to disagree here. If a creator sells rights to an IP, they've effectively sold rights to that IP's official continuity. 

I can't tell someone what to do with what they own regardless of their lack of integrity. We can say "fuck the owners", but still.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 21, 2019)

NamesClassified said:


> The creator of the series saw them as relevant enough that he illustrated the novel and canonized events that would take place in said novel both his manga was finished and .


I can't see imgur links.
But all I can say is this. There is a reason the novels weren't referenced in the manga when the manga was ongoing and they were once the manga was basically over and Kishimoto passed the torch.



> From what i'm seeing online, it seems your right. Kishimoto has copyright. But he himself gave Mikio Ikemoto the rights to pen the sequel.
> 
> If Shuiesha billed Boruto as a direct sequel to Naruto and Kishimoto gave his ok, then what about it problematic?


Nothing is problematic from a bussiness point of view I can tell you that.
But even if Kishimoto is giving it "ok", unless he is overseeing every word and stroke, whoever is making the manga is taking creative liberties that Kishimoto himself isn't.



> We will have to agree to disagree here. If a creator sells rights to an IP, they've effectively sold rights to that IP's official continuity.
> 
> I can't tell someone what to do with what they own regardless of their lack of integrity. We can say "fuck the owners", but still.



The thing is Naruto is a universe created by Kishimoto, which has certain rules and history and concepts. While the new owners can try to honer the past, any new addition to the series will lack the same creative integrity. It is much safer to evaluate Boruto in its own unvierse.
So yeah, lets agree to disagree.



baski said:


> I see this a lot but aside from Naruto and Sakura, who in Konoha is actually stronger than Kakashi Post-War? Can't think of anyone.
> Naruto was a genin in addition to being a bonehead who clearly wasn't ready for the non-battle aspects of being a Kage, and Sakura never wanted the job, so the only choice was Kakashi.
> I mean a case could be made he was the second strongest after Naruto. And look at his contemporaries in other villages. They don't exactly blow him out of the water except for Gaara.
> I don't see why people talk about him as if the sentiment while choosing him was "Well somebody has to do it lol"


Yeah aside from those 2 probably there isn't anyone else for the Job. Even if we assume that Gai can still safely use gates, he isn't hokage material.

But the point is, Kakashi is not a good representetive of the power of a Hokage. Also yeah, new generation of  Gokage was pretty shit aside from Gaara, but that doesn't justfy Kakashi's position.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 21, 2019)

Your opinions about to give me PTSD bro


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## Trojan (Mar 21, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> That aside, darui, hidan & maybe mifune are the only I can see him beat


I am disappointed that no one picked Darui to debate Turrin... 

someone should have picked Darui > Kin/Gin > Tobirama/A2 > Tobirama. 
That would have been fun to see... 

oh well, maybe next time... 

@Omote 

I guess you could make the thread? Darui Vs Tobirama?


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## Hardcore (Mar 21, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I am disappointed that no one picked Darui to debate Turrin...
> 
> someone should have picked Darui > Kin/Gin > Tobirama/A2 > Tobirama.
> That would have been fun to see...
> ...



given undisputed portrayal

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soul (Mar 21, 2019)

baski said:


> How do you even respond to all these posts OP?
> Damn.



Stubbornness + free time is all you need.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Mar 21, 2019)

Soul said:


> Stubbornness + free time is all you need.


tbh, regardless of how retarded his posts may be, his stamina is impressive...  

even if someone was stubborn, I doubt s/he may go THAT far... 
in this aspect, Turrin is second to none...


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## Hardcore (Mar 21, 2019)

Hussain said:


> tbh, regardless of how retarded his posts may be, his stamina is impressive...
> 
> even if someone was stubborn, I doubt s/he may go THAT far...
> in this aspect, Turrin is second to none...



a breakdown is imminent


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## Turrin (Mar 22, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> @Turrin You make some decent points about the specialization thing, but how can there not be a large gap between chunin and jonin when it took four chunin levels to defeat two tired tokubetsu jonin?


Because they weren’t engaging them in on speciality; it’s not like the S4 were Taijutsu specialist and the Special Jonin only engaged them in Taijutsu. We also learn later that those Special Jonin are the Hokages guards so they likely are a lot stronger then originally given credit for.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Because they weren’t engaging them in one specialty; it’s not like the S4 were Taijutsu specialist and the Special Jonin only engaged them in Taijutsu. We also learn later that those Special Jonin are the Hokages guards so they likely are a lot stronger then originally given credit for.


 The fight was off-panel so how do you know what they engaged them in? The fact that Genma and Raido are "Special Jonin" tells us that they're weaker than all regular Jonin, so they aren't strong at all even if they are the Hokage's guards.


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## weegee22 (Mar 22, 2019)

Don't forget that Genma and Raido had just returned from a mission when they fought the S4. They weren't at 100% either.


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## NamesClassified (Mar 22, 2019)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I can't see imgur links.
> But all I can say is this. There is a reason the novels weren't referenced in the manga when the manga was ongoing and they were once the manga was basically over and Kishimoto passed the torch.


The events of novel take place during chp 700 and after the manga's conclusion.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nothing is problematic from a bussiness point of view I can tell you that.
> But even if Kishimoto is giving it "ok", unless he is overseeing every word and stroke, whoever is making the manga is taking creative liberties that Kishimoto himself isn't.


Kishimoto would be the who gave Ike those creative liberties.


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## Turrin (Mar 22, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The fight was off-panel so how do you know what they engaged them in? The fact that Genma and Raido are "Special Jonin" tells us that they're weaker than all regular Jonin, so they aren't strong at all even if they are the Hokage's guards.


1. Because the S4 aren’t Taijutsu specialist. So if the S4 only used Taijutsu that would actually mean they handicapped themselves for no reason

2.  That’s not what a special Jonin is; someone is special Jonin when they are only Jonin level in one area; in the case of the Hokage Guard they are obviously Jonin level in Combat as they are the guards that defend the Hokage


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Because the S4 aren’t Taijutsu specialist. So if the S4 only used Taijutsu that would actually mean they handicapped themselves for no reason


 Sakon, Ukon and Jirobo are though.


> 2.  That’s not what a special Jonin is; someone is special Jonin when they are only Jonin level in one area; in the case of the Hokage Guard they are obviously Jonin level in Combat as they are the guards that defend the Hokage


I know what they are, but that doesn't make any sense. What other areas would there even be for them to specialize in?


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## Turrin (Mar 22, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Sakon, Ukon and Jirobo are though.
> I know what they are, but that doesn't make any sense. What other areas would there even be for them to specialize in?


Sakon/ Ukon are Ninjutsu specialist their assasination technique is Ninjutsu and their main defense Rashomon is Ninjutsu.

Jirobo is the only that you could claim is, but even he makes use of Doton and Chakra 

1. Apparently a lot of areas as Ibiki is. Special Jonin for just interagation.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sakon/ Ukon are Ninjutsu specialist their assasination technique is Ninjutsu and their main defense Rashomon is Ninjutsu.
> 
> Jirobo is the only that you could claim is, but even he makes use of Doton and Chakra


 Not entirely true, the moves they used against Kiba are classified as "taijutsu" too. IIRC the only Earth Release jutsu that Jirobo uses is his dome, so it's more likely he used taijutsu.


> 1. Apparently a lot of areas as Ibiki is. Special Jonin for just interagation.


Okay I'll concede on this point.


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## Stonaem (Mar 22, 2019)

weegee22 said:


> Don't forget that Genma and Raido had just returned from a mission when they fought the S4. They weren't at 100% either.


True but irrelevant

When you come back from work and a pit bull chases you, you're gonna recognise the SURVIVAL threat and split full speed (likely faster than when you're fresh but not in mortal danger). 

The FATIGUE will reveal itself later when you're resting, but not when YOUR LIFE IS ON THE LINE. 

Add to that that Raido and Genma both agreed that the quartet were monster individuals . . . (Hype)


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## Turrin (Mar 23, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Not entirely true, the moves they used against Kiba are classified as "taijutsu" too. IIRC the only Earth Release jutsu that Jirobo uses is his dome, so it's more likely he used taijutsu.
> Okay I'll concede on this point.


1. Everyone uses some Taijutsu; that doesn’t make them Taijutsu specialist who would engage the Hokage Guards in just Taijutsu

He also used Earth wall; that that Earth technique where he picks up a huge bolder and hurls it at the opponent; and chakra absorption. He also uses the S4 barrier with the other S4. 

2. Okay so can you now concede that Drunk Lee could probably push many Jonin and potentially a few Kages in a Taijutsu only fight?


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 23, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Everyone uses some Taijutsu; that doesn’t make them Taijutsu specialist who would engage the Hokage Guards in just Taijutsu.
> 
> He also used Earth wall; that that Earth technique where he picks up a huge bolder and hurls it at the opponent; and chakra absorption. He also uses the S4 barrier with the other S4.


 Aside from Rashomon and some defensive Earth Release ninjutsu, Sakon and Ukon and Jirobo utilize taijutsu as their main form of offense in fights. So it's obvious that's what they must've employed, so what we have is it required the Sound Four in CS2 to defeat two weakened Jonin. This still illustrates a decent gap between the Sound Four/Konoha 11 and Jonin levels overall. 


> 2. Okay so can you now concede that Drunk Lee could probably push many Jonin and potentially a few Kages in a Taijutsu only fight?


 Maybe some weaker Jonin like Genma and Raido, but I don't see the best ones having any trouble with him.


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## Turrin (Mar 23, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Aside from Rashomon and some defensive Earth Release ninjutsu, Sakon and Ukon and Jirobo utilize taijutsu as their main form of offense in fights. So it's obvious that's what they must've employed, so what we have is it required the Sound Four in CS2 to defeat two weakened Jonin. This still illustrates a decent gap between the Sound Four/Konoha 11 and Jonin levels overall.
> Maybe some weaker Jonin like Genma and Raido, but I don't see the best ones having any trouble with him.



1. Okay; let me put it to you another’s way none of the S4 are as good at Taijutsu as Drunk Lee. And we don’t know how good those Jonin are. So even if they engaged them in primarily Taijutsu this tells us nothing. 

Again Naruto doesn’t work where everyone who is Genin / Chunin is inferior in everything to a Jonin. 

2. What are the best ones? Kurunai is one of the best Jonin and statistically speaking Drunk Lee would beat the shit out of her in Taijutsu; and I have no reason to believe otherwise from the stats. The only ones I could see definitely beating Drunk Lee in Taijutsu are characters like P1 Kakashi  with Sharingan and P1-Gai; at least that’s the only two I can think off of the top of my head


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Okay; let me put it to you another’s way none of the S4 are as good at Taijutsu as Drunk Lee. And we don’t know how good those Jonin are. So even if they engaged them in primarily Taijutsu this tells us nothing.


 Okay, you're right that none of them are as good as the Lee.


> Again Naruto doesn’t work where everyone who is Genin / Chunin is inferior in everything to a Jonin.


 I agree.


> 2. What are the best ones? Kurunai is one of the best Jonin and statistically speaking Drunk Lee would beat the shit out of her in Taijutsu; and I have no reason to believe otherwise from the stats. The only ones I could see definitely beating Drunk Lee in Taijutsu are characters like P1 Kakashi with Sharingan and P1-Gai; at least that’s the only two I can think off of the top of my head


Kakashi, Guy, Asuma and Kurenai are the best Jonin in Konoha in P1. The first three could handle Lee in taijutsu, however, you're probably right that Kurenai could not.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Okay, you're right that none of them are as good as the Lee.
> I agree.
> Kakashi, Guy, Asuma and Kurenai are the best Jonin in Konoha in P1. The first three could handle Lee in taijutsu, however, you're probably right that Kurenai could not.


Okay now let’s give them a terminal illness that has them an hour away from death; at that point Drunk Lee probably beats them too

So do you now see how pointless it is to bring up that Drunk Lee bested Near Death Base Kimi in Taijutsu when it comes to determining his strength?


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Okay now let’s give them a terminal illness that has them an hour away from death; at that point Drunk Lee probably beats them too
> 
> So do you now see how pointless it is to bring up that Drunk Lee bested Near Death Base Kimi in Taijutsu when it comes to determining his strength?


Yeah I get your point, it's not a fair assessment of Kimimaro's ability. However, depending on what you consider "Low Kage", I probably still disagree with you about Kimimaro being able to beat them even if he's his hypothetical healthy self. Especially since you can't properly determine how strong he would be.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Yeah I get your point, it's not a fair assessment of Kimimaro's ability. However, depending on what you consider "Low Kage", I probably still disagree with you about Kimimaro being able to beat them even if he's his hypothetical healthy self. Especially since you can't properly determine how strong he would be.


Dude if you admit your can to determine exactly how strong he is how can you be sure he’s not Low-Kage? 

I’d gladly discuss some match ups with you if you want.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 24, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Dude if you admit your can to determine exactly how strong he is how can you be sure he’s not Low-Kage?


 Well obviously I can't, I just think he'd probably still be weaker than all of the Kage we know about. 


> I’d gladly discuss some match ups with you if you want.


 Alright, what about Kimimaro vs Mei? How would he beat her? How does he counter her acid mist?


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Well obviously I can't, I just think he'd probably still be weaker than all of the Kage we know about.
> Alright, what about Kimimaro vs Mei? How would he beat her? How does he counter her acid mist?



1. Why?

2. Mei vs Kimi basically comes down to if Kimi bone durability and regeneration can allow him to survive Acid Mist long enough to use Sawarabi no Mai which Mei has no counter for an Dies against. In my opinion it probably would considering the level of his bone durability and regen are insane and he can instantly boost them more with CS


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