# Itachi Uchiha vs Jiraiya (SM)



## Troyse22 (Apr 26, 2017)

Location: Hanzo vs Sannin
Distance: 25m
Restrictions: None
Knowledge: Manga
Stipulations/Notes: Jiraiya starts with SM with Fukasaku and Shima
Itachi is healthy.


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## theRonin (Apr 26, 2017)

Unless jiraiya has sensing as dB says he does, i don't see how he is gonna overcome tsukuyomi or amatarasu for that matter.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bookworm (Apr 26, 2017)

Jiraiya will have problems with Amaterasu. I can easily see Jiraiya starting the match with a SM katon only for it to end like it did with Sasuke (Itachi's Amaterasu eating Jiraiya's katon) then Amaterasu will eventually make its way to Jiraiya.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 27, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Location: Hanzo vs Sannin
> Distance: 25m
> Restrictions: None
> Knowledge: Manga
> ...


​troyse aren't you the one always complaining when this thread comes up? So why?!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Apr 27, 2017)

Itachi wins with mid to high difficulty in my opinion.  Kisame seems to think that a weaker version of Itachi is more powerful than Jiraiya.  Plus Itachi is far more powerful than Orochimaru, who would likely at least put up a good match up against Jiraiya.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 27, 2017)

Why do people even make these threads anymore?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 27, 2017)

favouring SM jiraiya here

SM jiraiya starts off with big techniques like  in which case Itachi would need to start with his MS techniques like Amaterasu and Susanoo which isnot to itachis liking who generally starts any match with basic clone feints and all and *MS techniques still will have impact on Itachis body whether his health his inatct or not*

Jiraiya can use LOS blockers to counter amaterasu  and also can use clones in order to seal amaterasu and manga knowledge he knows he about amaterasu

 counters susanoo while so does 

Jiraiyas awakening is more potent as his awakening increases his base stats and performance while itachis awakening MS may give him lethal techniques but limits his performance and is prone to leave an opening sooner or later.


*Side note:  Any Sanin can Beat Kisame *

Edit*: I think the colour I use 
is better than any other members who are using it

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Jiraiya will have problems with Amaterasu. I can easily see Jiraiya starting the match with a SM katon only for it to end like it did with Sasuke (Itachi's Amaterasu eating Jiraiya's katon) then Amaterasu will eventually make its way to Jiraiya.



If Jiraiya can sense Amaterasu being prepared he can protect himself with his hair and then toss off the hair with Amaterasu on it.


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## Hazuki (Apr 27, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> If Jiraiya can sense Amaterasu being prepared he can protect himself with his hair and then toss off the hair with Amaterasu on it.



true , also i think jiraiya has severales way to handlle amaterasu , he can seal it as he did before
we know amaterasu don't kill the target immediatly
even a samurai or karin weren't hurt 

anyway i think jiraiya with intentiion killer and will of fire would beat itachi healh
it wouldn't be a easy fight but still


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## GoldGournetChef (Apr 27, 2017)

Jman for me 
While SM has no effective consequences ms tech does and will slowly but surely kill itachi


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## Bookworm (Apr 27, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> If Jiraiya can sense Amaterasu being prepared he can protect himself with his hair and then toss off the hair with Amaterasu on it.



Sensing won't do any good. Jman doesn't know Amaterasu comes from the eyes. Besides SM sensing isn't passive. Jman would have to have a reason to sense.


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## sabre320 (Apr 27, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Sensing won't do any good. Jman doesn't know Amaterasu comes from the eyes. Besides SM sensing isn't passive. Jman would have to have a reason to sense.


Sm sensing is most certainly passive and is far superior to regular sensing...it allows users to sense surprise ftg attacks from behind...


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## Veracity (Apr 27, 2017)

I'm about to get dragged for this buttt I've always viewed Itachi as superior to the Sannin(retcon tbh). I think it's kinda crazy to assume that Jirayia is just immune to genjustu which is usually the case. He has standard counters like Bunshin and the partner method but that isn't enough to render him invincible in the face of the greatest genjustu user in the manga bar god-tiers. Itachi possesses the tactical prowess required to land genjustu atleast once and follow up with an attack that either kills an elder toad or mortally wounds Jirayia. After that's it's wrap.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Trojan (Apr 27, 2017)

Jiraiya wins obviously. 

Without Sasuke, itachi will have trouble with Sound-based moves.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 27, 2017)

So basically Jiraiya can tank Amateratsu, take out a scroll, write a seal and seal it, all while he's on fire....Right. That same fire that made Hachibi screamed like a bitch....Right....


Jiraiya can also avoid Tsukuyomi by using unknown sensing methods that he's never demonstrated before, in addition to fighting without using eye contacts which was specifically stated to require training for. But since it's Jiraiya, he can do it, right? 

It's funny how people always mention all the MS drawbacks as if it's somehow going to make Jiraiya win. Drawbacks or not, Jiraiya has to be able to survive at least 3 MS techs from Itachi and an extensive use of Susano. If he can't survive that then all the "drawbacks" for MS doesn't mean shit. 



Lastly, Itachi is several leagues ahead of Jiraiya in intelligence and deductive abilities. By the time Jiraiya figures out something about Itachi, Itachi would have figured out far more and use it against him.


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## Gianfi (Apr 27, 2017)

I view Itachi as  slightly stronger , mostly for the reasons stated above by Veracity. Itachi wins High/extreme diff


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 27, 2017)

Id go with Itachi after a very close fight

No matter who takes it it aint an easy battle


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## Serene Grace (Apr 27, 2017)

Ho ho boy, I've been waiting for this thread for while 

Jiraiya wins at about mid-high diff. Itachis only chance at this is if you make Jiraya start in base, making him start in SM kind of gives Jiraiya the win imo, but let's beginning.

Jiraiya has three counters to Amaterasu. The first one , then puts up the sufficent defense to counter it via Needle Jizō + Kebari Senbon to remove the burning parts. Conventional sensing <<<<<SM sensing so I have no reason to believe that Jiraiya couldn't repeat this same feat with his sensing, DB stated he can sense so I have no reason to believe he can't sense. The second counter would be having ma and pa to seal the flames off of him via the seal that he casually carries around in his pocket(1)(2). Third which is probably the best counter is Jiraiya senses the chakra build up in Itachi's eyes, and makes kage bunshins to block itachis LOS so the clones would be hit by ama instead. Amaterasu's prep is long enough to where Nagato could give a dialogue, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei, and gives more dialogue so Jiraiya shold have enough time to make a few clones. This isn't hard to believe when both pa and ma can sense the build up of Amaterasu, so even they can add additional LOS blocking katons, or dust clouds giving Jiraiya time to escape

Genjutsu gets negged by Ma and Pa simply waking Jiraiya up or kage bunshins, I find it hard to believe that Itachi is gonna catch three SM users that can sense in genjutsu honestly. 

Itachi gets raped in CQC, Jiraiya would likely break a few of his teeth if he hits him as he's shown ridiculous strength in SM()() and Itachi would also likely get horribly ragdolled and  by Lion Mane of which allowed Jiraiya to  easily and would allow Jiraiya to fight and rag doll Itachi from great distances()()

Once jiraiya goes the offensive side, this is the point where Itachi has to bring out Susanoo, but Susano'o is countered by SM enhanced Yomi Numa. Yomi Numa was able to sink Orochimaru's snake sunk about halfway into the ground nigh instantly, this was nerfed version as the normal one was stated to be far stronger, and would have easily sunk the snake,
Then we have Yomi Numa's suction literally defying the laws of gravity as it trapped Human path in a matter of seconds despite gravity clearly working against it so with the added force of gravity in addition to the swamp pulling Itachi in, topped on to the fact that the jutsu would be enhanced by SM(which was out right stated to enhance ninjutsu) leading to a far stronger suction as well as a far bigger swamp, he will sink pretty fast in fact. Though Susanoo is close to irrelevant as he can't even maintain it that long due to the adverse effects it has on his body and the ridiculous rate at which it eats at his life force, wouldn't be able to anticapate or deduce the swamp accumulating via reading the seals with his sharingan as Kakashi and Sasuke only deduced different natures via seals because Doton is normally associated with the snake seal. Yomi Numa is a boar and tiger seal, the latter is associated with Katon. He can only really counter it in Susanoo form if he either had knowledge or was looking down at the ground the whole time, which we know won't happen and if we gave Itachi sensing abilities allowing him to sense the swamp instantly accumulating below him but he has none of those so he likely gets swamped, or trapped at the very least. In his Susanoo form he simply becomes slower and bigger making him an easier target to get swamped and sink faster. 

- Senpo Goemon easily fills the distance between him and Itachi and easily reachs him, which he can only likely counter with Susanoo. Jiraiya's big ass katon+Oil+being enhanced by SM fucks Itachi's shit over the same Gambunta that was shown to be comparable to two bjuiis which were Shukaku and  in size and was , so if we ado the SM buff to it, it would be hella of lot for Itachi to deal in base. This would again force him to use his Susanoo . 

Jiraiya reacts to everything Itachi throws at him(bar Amaterasu) with his SM enhanced reflexes, and his sensing which is applicable to both ma and pa as well, yes that includes Totsuka blade as it only blitzed Orochimaru and a cripple Nagato,  with sensing and enhanced reflexes+speed Jiraiya no sells it.

As for sound genjustu, Itachi gets pretty much one shot by that as has no real way of escaping or countering, like he did in canon

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Friendly 1 | Useful 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Bookworm (Apr 27, 2017)

Jiraiya will likely lose to genjutsu (Tsukuyomi) before he even gets killed by Amaterasu, considering


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## Sapherosth (Apr 27, 2017)

I still find it funny how Jiraiya counters Amateratsu by "cutting his hair". It's like, are you even aware of how big Amateratsu bolts are and how fast it actually engulfs you?   Did you actually see what happened to Hebi Sasuke (whose wings were actually quite durable and resistant to fire) who was hit and was engulfed almost immediately? 

Are you even aware of the incredible pain of being burned by Amateratsu?  

If Jiraiya hardens his hair into "steel" or whatnot, he wouldn't be able to cut it. Therefore, he would have to deactivate it before he can cut it which means his hair would become normal hair which is easily burned. Not to mention the fact that Jiraiya has to do all of this almost immediately to avoid Amateratsu from spreading which is both physically and mentally impossible for Jiraiya given the fact that he doesn't know what Amateratsu is or how it even works in the first place. 

And lmao at Ma & Pa using the scroll to seal the flames out of Jiraiya. Let's just ignore the fact that Jiraiya would be reverted back to base the moment either one of the toads leave his shoulders AND he has endure being burned alive and sustain the injuries from the flames. Oh, not to mention there's no evidence of Ma or Pa knowing how to use it. But hey, Sannin logic. 


Knowing Amateratsu is coming isn't the problem. It's actually dodging/defending it that's the problem. Everybody who was ever hit by Amateratsu - Sasuke, Danzo, Bee and Nagato ALL knew something was coming, yet they all got hit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Apr 27, 2017)

No wonder you didn't directly quote me, as this was what you wrote


Sapherosth said:


> Are you even aware of the incredible pain of being burned by Amateratsu?


Fodder samurai does, Ay surely does since he didn't even know it was burning his hand, and so does Karin as well.




Sapherosth said:


> If Jiraiya hardens his hair into "steel" or whatnot, he wouldn't be able to cut it. Therefore, he would have to deactivate it before he can cut it which means his hair would become normal hair which is easily burned.


Wrong he could shoot the parts that are burnt, and then have ma and pa seal the rest of it


Sapherosth said:


> And lmao at Ma & Pa using the scroll to seal the flames out of Jiraiya. Let's just ignore the fact that Jiraiya would be reverted back to base the moment either one of the toads leave his shoulders


are you saying Ma and Pa, can't use a seal while their on Jiraiyas shoulder, or is it that you think Jiraiya would be standing, while Amaterasu is burning him? Lol




Sapherosth said:


> he has endure being burned alive and sustain the injuries from the flames.


Jiraiya was able to fight all 6 paths off panel with one arm(dude was barely phased at all), he's pretty resilient, not to mention if we put Amaterasu's laughable feats into play, it looks like it wouldn't be too bad for him




Sapherosth said:


> Everybody who was ever hit by Amateratsu





Sapherosth said:


> *- Sasuke, Danzo, Bee* and Nagato ALL knew something was coming, yet they all got hit.


bold is irrelevant since none of them can sense, so they wouldn't be able to sense the chakra build up in his eyes. As for Nagato,he did sense Amaterasu and would have countered it, but koto activated, you also have to look at the context since Nagato wasn't actually...well trying to fight Itachi which was made evident since Amateraus was burning him for the longest time, yet he was just letting the flames spread and standing there.

Now that I think about it you're right, this would be a better method:

Jiraiya senses the chakra build up in Itachi's eyes, or simply gets warned by ma or pa and makes a kage bunshin to block itachis LOS so the clone would be hit by ama instead. Amaterasu's prep is long enough to where Nagato could give a dialogue, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei, and gives more dialogue. This isn't hard to believe when both pa and ma can sense the build up of Amaterasu, so even they can add additional LOS blocking katons, or dust clouds giving Jiraiya time to escape.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Sapherosth (Apr 27, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> No wonder you didn't directly quote me, as this was what you wrote
> 
> Fodder samurai does, Ay surely does since he didn't even know it was burning his hand, and so does Karin as well.




Fodder samurai - incapacitated.

Ay - Was protected by armour AND raiton armour AND his incredibly resilient skin. 

Karin - She passed out and we later see her getting pierced by dozens of mokuton without even flinching. 




> Wrong he could shoot the parts that are burnt, and then have ma and pa seal the rest of it




And what would Itachi be doing?  Just watching?  Why not shoot more? He's perfectly capable of such.




> are you saying Ma and Pa, can't use a seal while their on Jiraiyas shoulder, or is it that you think Jiraiya would be standing, while Amaterasu is burning him? Lol



Any proof Ma & Pa even knows how to use it?

And also, how the fuck would Ma & Pa reach for the scroll if they don't have to leave Jiraiya's shoulders?


Your logic is getting shitter by the minute.




> Jiraiya was able to fight all 6 paths off panel with one arm(dude was barely phased at all), he's pretty resilient, not to mention if we put Amaterasu's laughable feats into play, it looks like it wouldn't be too bad for him




Karin was pierced by dozens mokuton and wasn't even fazed yet she passed out from Amateratsu pain. What does that tell you?

Hachibi screamed like a bitch. Juubi screamed like a bitch. Ceberus screamed like a bitch. But somehow Jiraiya takes it like a boss just like the Raikage who was protected by durable skin, raiton armour and another thick armour?  

Just think about that.....




> bold is irrelevant since none of them can sense, so they wouldn't be able to sense the chakra build up in his eyes.



What the fuck are you talking about?    Sharingan can see chakra. Obviously it can "sense". 





> As for Nagato,he did sense Amaterasu and would have countered it, but koto activated, you also have to look at the context since Nagato wasn't actually...well trying to fight Itachi which was made evident since Amateraus was burning him for the longest time, yet he was just letting the flames spread and standing there.



Still smoking shit I see....."would've countered it" but got hit by it anyways despite being in auto-pilot mode...Lmao.



> Now that I think about it you're right, this would be a better method:
> 
> Jiraiya senses the chakra build up in Itachi's eyes, or simply gets warned by ma or pa and makes a kage bunshin to block itachis LOS so the clone would be hit by ama instead.



Oh wow, didn't realise that Jiraiya can form seals faster than Itachi can shoot Amateratsu. Jiraiya must be superior than Juubito who only defended against Amateratsu by forming a shield. But wait, Jiraiya can even perform hand-seals!





> Amaterasu's prep is long enough to where Nagato could give a dialogue, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei, and gives more dialogue. This isn't hard to believe when both pa and ma can sense the build up of Amaterasu, so even they can add additional LOS blocking katons, or dust clouds giving Jiraiya time to escape.



Oh, so now Ma & Pa knows what Amateratsu is and how it works?


You know what happened when Amateratsu was used against a superior sage than Jiraiya?   It spawned and covered an entire circle before he could even stop. If Sasuke intended it to land on Kabuto, it would've landed before he could form any shield or "sense its build-up". And that's coming from someone who's SM sensing is leagues ahead of Jiraiya, if he even has any.








You should really open your eyes to Amateratsu's speed feats before spouting such nonsense about Jiraiya's non-existent sensing feat that even SM Kabuto wasn't able to replicate.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Bonly (Apr 27, 2017)

I'd favor Itachi more times then not. It'll be a close battle at first but once Itachi starts to use his MS jutsu Jiraiya is gonna be put in a tight spot and problems dealing with it while on the otherhand Jiraiya doesn't have much to get through Susanoo if used so Jiraiya's gonna be fighting an up hill battle. Best shot at winning I see for Jiraiya is Frog Song which he may or may not get off depending on how the battle plays out but I'd see Itachi being able to take out beforehand more often


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## Mithos (Apr 27, 2017)

I think a battle between Itachi and Jiraiya would normally go either way, but with Jiraiya already starting in SM, I think he has the edge here. Sage sensing counters Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, and having two Toad Sages attached on his shoulders protects him from any other genjutsu.


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## ARGUS (Apr 28, 2017)

Once V4 susanoo comes out; Jiraiya stands no chance

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Trojan (Apr 28, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> Once V4 susanoo comes out; Jiraiya stands no chance


Rubbish. Frog Call will shut down that shit immediately.

SM sensing will allow Jiraiya to dodge anything the Susanoo tries to do as well. Just like how Kabuto easily dodge them as well.
------

On a different note. Anyone who brings Amaterasu up in almost any debate, shouldn't be taken seriously. @The Death & The Strawberry

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 28, 2017)

TDTS, just curious why you're giving an imperfect sage (Jiraiya) a perfect sages sensing abilities (Naruto). It seems like a huge reach considering Jiraiya has quite literally no sensing feats, and the one time he had to show them off, he didn't or couldn't and was blindsided by Asura, meanwhile it was made clear that Naruto could sense, rather well in fact. 

Idk, nobody who's read the manga or watched the anime for that matter should just give Jiraiya sensing, since the chances he's had to show it off, he didn't.

Didn't Naruto also state now that he's *mastered* SM, he can sense everyone's Chakra. This appears to be an ability unique to perfect sages.

Idk, it's just my 2 cents on the matter.

Saph, don't rely on Amaterasu for debates either, it had far too many low end feats to be considered a consistent jutsu, and the one you're arguing against will always use those low end feats against you.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 28, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> TDTS, just curious why you're giving an imperfect sage (Jiraiya) a perfect sages sensing abilities (Naruto). It seems like a huge reach considering Jiraiya has quite literally no sensing feats, and the one time he had to show them off, he didn't or couldn't and was blindsided by Asura, meanwhile it was made clear that Naruto could sense, rather well in fact.
> 
> Idk, nobody who's read the manga or watched the anime for that matter should just give Jiraiya sensing, since the chances he's had to show it off, he didn't.


I'm no reachig though. Databook stated that he can sense, I have no reason to believe he can't. Him not sensing pain could have just been him not paying attention.

As for what naruto said, that doesn't entirely mean that only perfect sages can sense, it could simply mean that only perfect sages can sense on a scale like that.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 28, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Databook stated




It also states temaris Fuuton can destroy the universe. The DB is trash


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## Trojan (Apr 28, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> It also states temaris Fuuton can destroy the universe. The DB is trash


the manga said PS can destroy anything in the universe as well. The manga is trash.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 28, 2017)

Hussain said:


> the manga said PS can destroy anything in the universe as well. The manga is trash.



Everything is trash confirmed


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 28, 2017)

Two perfect sage in jiraiyas shoulder could not detect Asura Blind slide.  So its probably a matter of character letting guard down.


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## ARGUS (Apr 28, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Rubbish. Frog Call will shut down that shit immediately.




-- frog call Is physical paralysis. So mental jutsu such as susanoo or Amaterasu are unaffected
-- no feats of frogcall restraining something as powerful as V4 susnoo
-- Itachi can light up ma and pa the second they attempt to release the sound wave or can do it during the sound emission


> *SM sensing will allow Jiraiya to dodge anything the Susanoo tries to do as well. Just like how Kabuto easily dodge them as well.*
> ------



Gives Kabutos DSM feats to an imperfect toad SM user like JIraiya
And then calls my argument rubbish, loll

-- SM sensing doesn't let him dodge susanoo that's absolutely basless. SM sensing doesn't automatically guarantee a dodge. That's also basless

-- Itachi managed to tag KCM naruto and DSM Kabuto, both users much much faster than Jiraiya, and that was without susanoo. With susanoo he has the extra AOE and Its superior striking speed which guaranteees a hit
A hit that Jiraiya can't counter



> On a different note. Anyone who brings Amaterasu up in almost any debate, shouldn't be taken seriously. @The Death & The Strawberry


It counters the summons, may also trouble Jiraiya.
The only ones who should not be taken seriously are People who make up feats and try to discredit the others


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## Trojan (Apr 28, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> -- frog call Is physical paralysis. So mental jutsu such as susanoo or Amaterasu are unaffected
> -- no feats of frogcall restraining something as powerful as V4 susnoo
> -- Itachi can light up ma and pa the second they attempt to release the sound wave or can do it during the sound emission



Say that to Kabuto's white rage. 
itachi will NOT be able to keep up the Susanoo. And I did not mention anything about Amaterasu being effected btw. 

- No feats of V4 Susanoo staying still against something as powerful as Frog Call. If that shit can paralyze a huge ass Summons, they can do the same for lolitashit. How powerful the Susanoo is, is pretty irrelevant, as it's not attacking the Susanoo, but the user directly.

- Lol, wishful thinking. SM sensing put Trashterasu in its place.



> Gives Kabutos DSM feats to an imperfect toad SM user like JIraiya
> And then calls my argument rubbish, loll
> 
> -- SM sensing doesn't let him dodge susanoo that's absolutely basless. SM sensing doesn't automatically guarantee a dodge. That's also basless
> ...



- Applying the same logic, Kabuto's SM is not perfect either as Mitsuki showed a superior SM than Kabuto. Additionally, the factor in deciding how good a SM is was by seeing the changed features the user gets. Jiraiya looked more like a frog, and Kabuto looked more like a snake. 



- Every time it did. Not as itachi's Susanoo has the greatest speed in the world to begin with. Do you have a proof that Jiraiya will not
be able to dodge any attack itachi tries to throw at him? 

- Lol, KCM Naruto that was not intending to fight back nor was using his speed. What is your point? All the Junchuuirkis were able
to hit Naruto as well, so? 



> both users much much faster than Jiraiya


This is utterely retarded. Why are you bring their speed when they weren't using such thing? Himawari was also able to tag Hokage
Naruto, and Bolt also did the same. That does not mean they can hit Sasuke for example at full speed because they did to Naruto who
was not trying to do shit. Pffff



> susanoo he has the extra AOE and Its superior striking speed which guaranteees a hit
> A hit that Jiraiya can't counter



Proof that itachi will get to keep the Susanoo please? The manga tells us something else. 






After focusing  chakra to their throats, both Fukasaku and Shima croak together in unison, releasing large, loud and immensely powerful sound waves that effectively annoy, distract and temporarily paralyse any afflicted targets completely.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Serene Grace (Apr 28, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> It also states temaris Fuuton can destroy the universe. The DB is trash


No offense, but you do know the difference between a valid statement, and a hyperbole..right? The db says he can sense, so I have no reason to believe he can't, you comparing the statement to an obvious hyperbole isn't a reason.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## sabre320 (Apr 28, 2017)

SM jirayia has sound attacks that itachi has no counter for at all frog call can stop boss summons mid charge and paralyze them and frog song is gg.


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## Bookworm (Apr 28, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> SM jirayia has sound attacks that itachi has no counter for at all frog call can stop boss summons mid charge and paralyze them and frog song is gg.



Frog call isn't a genjutsu. Itachi was in a genjutsu when his susanoo disappeared.


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## Arles Celes (Apr 28, 2017)

According to manga hype if they fight then they will both end up dead or severely hurt.

Feats wise it depends. We do not know how much chakra Itachi got while healthy and so how much could he keep Susanoo active or use other MS jutsus. Itachi's V4 Susanoo limits are also a bit difficult to specify as he always ended the fight in short order with it but in Nagato's case he was immobile so that only leaves Oro who got a 4.5 in speed. So a Totsuka attack might approach a Susanoo arrow or be slower or somewhat faster.

I think Itachi's best chance of winning would be at the beginning as with his chakra reserves diminishing and his eyes going bad the more he uses MS while Jiraiya got an endless NE supply thanks to those frogs the longer the battle would go the worse for Itachi.


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## Rai (Apr 28, 2017)

Itachi is stronger.

We all know that-

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Trojan (Apr 28, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Frog call isn't a genjutsu. Itachi was in a genjutsu when his susanoo disappeared.


It does not have to be a Genjutsu. White Rage was not a Genjutsu either.
Sasuke: "Ugh! it's no use... I can't hold the Susanoo"




Any sound attack and itachi is fucked.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Arles Celes (Apr 28, 2017)

Hussain said:


> It does not have to be a Genjutsu. White Rage was not a Genjutsu either.
> Sasuke: "Ugh! it's no use... I can't hold the Susanoo"
> 
> 
> ...



Wasn't Itachi actually capable of manifesting Susanoo in that particular instance in an attempt to protect Sasuke from Kabuto despite being affected by said sound attack?

 Nagato was able to warn Naruto, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei,

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Bookworm (Apr 28, 2017)

Hussain said:


> It does not have to be a Genjutsu. White Rage was not a Genjutsu either.
> Sasuke: "Ugh! it's no use... I can't hold the Susanoo"
> 
> 
> ...



Itachi was able to use susanoo during kabuto's jutsu.


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## Trojan (Apr 28, 2017)

Arles Celes said:


> Wasn't Itachi actually capable of manifesting Susanoo in that particular instance in an attempt to protect Sasuke from Kabuto despite being affected by said sound attack?
> 
> Nagato was able to warn Naruto, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei,





Trolling said:


> Itachi was able to use susanoo during kabuto's genjutsu.



Being able to use part of Susanoo (barely) will not save him from any attack from Jiraiya.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 2 | Dislike 2


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## sabre320 (Apr 28, 2017)

Frog call allows jirayia to follow up with senpo chou oodama rasenagn,fcd or goemon to crush ribcage sussano or yomi noma to sink it.


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## Arles Celes (Apr 28, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Being able to use part of Susanoo (barely) will not save him from any attack from Jiraiya.



Even such manifestation can be used to fend off attacks.

 Nagato was able to warn Naruto, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei, 
 Nagato was able to warn Naruto, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei, 
 Nagato was able to warn Naruto, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei, 

Besides the effect of such a sound attack(unless it was Frog Song) wouldn't last for long so Itachi could upgrade to full Susanoo soon enough and Jiraiya doesn't have a FRS level attack. V4 Susanoo with Yata mirror is rather featless aside from the huge hype but I kinda believe it can handle SM Jiraiya's Oodama Rasengan.


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## Trojan (Apr 28, 2017)

Arles Celes said:


> Even such manifestation can be used to fend off attacks.
> 
> Nagato was able to warn Naruto, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei,
> Nagato was able to warn Naruto, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei,
> ...



How does that protect itachi from Jiraiya's swamp for example? 
Not to mention, unlike Kabuto, Jiraiya does use Shadow clones. Maybe itachi can protect himself from 1 side, but he won't protect himself from 2 sides. 

- It will last long enough for at least one attack. 
 Nagato was able to warn Naruto, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei, 
 Nagato was able to warn Naruto, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei, 
 Nagato was able to warn Naruto, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei, 

- Susanoo, even V4 will not be able to protect itachi from Jiraiya's swamp. So, either way, Jiraiya still has many options.


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## Arles Celes (Apr 28, 2017)

Hussain said:


> How does that protect itachi from Jiraiya's swamp for example?
> Not to mention, unlike Kabuto, Jiraiya does use Shadow clones. Maybe itachi can protect himself from 1 side, but he won't protect himself from 2 sides.
> 
> - It will last long enough for at least one attack.
> ...



True, the swamp seems troublesome and Itachi's Susanoo lacks legs even.

Though why Jiraiya did not use it against Pain if it is so effective? Maybe it was due to plot but...

Perhaps Itachi would be able to see the earth seal of the swamp with his sharingan and jump quickly when realizing that something may happen to the ground? 

Jiraiya's full sized non drug affected swamp was never shown tho so maybe it is so big that no jump will get Itachi out of range...


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## sabre320 (Apr 28, 2017)

Arles Celes said:


> True, the swamp seems troublesome and Itachi's Susanoo lacks legs even.
> 
> Though why Jiraiya did not use it against Pain if it is so effective? Maybe it was due to plot but...
> 
> ...


A drugged base jirayias swamp can sink a boss summon, keep in mind he was so debilitated he couldnt cover himself with lions mane ,,...sage jirayias senpo swamp can atleast cover enough distance to prevent that.


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## sabre320 (Apr 28, 2017)

Arles Celes said:


> Even such manifestation can be used to fend off attacks.
> 
> Nagato was able to warn Naruto, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei,
> Nagato was able to warn Naruto, Bee threw swords, Nagato deflects with Shinra Tensei,
> ...


It can fend off attacks but jirayias attacks are far too strong to be stopped by partial sussano ...a base cor was too much for madaras v2 a senpo cor crushes itachi along with partial sussano and its size allows jirayia to be sheilded from any counter attack or ama as it blocks los not to mention he can drop bunta onto itachi to crush him while he is debilitated.


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## Arles Celes (Apr 28, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> Frog call allows jirayia to follow up with senpo chou oodama rasenagn,fcd or goemon to crush ribcage sussano or yomi noma to sink it.



EMS Sasuke's Susanoo arm could block a gudoudama spear from Juubito. Even if Sasuke by that point surpassed Itachi completely, Juubito was much stronger than Jiraiya ever could be. Enough for chou odama rasengan and I have doubts whether fcd would overpower it too.



sabre320 said:


> A drugged base jirayias swamp can sink a boss summon, keep in mind he was so debilitated he couldnt cover himself with lions mane ,,...sage jirayias senpo swamp can atleast cover enough distance to prevent that.



Hmmm, but Jiraiya would have to be wary with that as he could end up sinking himself due to his own jutsu. Or would need to be really far away from Itachi when using it.

But the range of the swamp could admittedly be crazy with SM. If it could affect a boss sized summon while weakened under the drugs would a healthy SM Jiraiya be able to create a swamp like 5-10 times that size?


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## Sapherosth (Apr 28, 2017)

I find it funny how Jiraiya is granted SM Naruto/SM Kabuto's feats but back in the days when Sasuke used partial Susano and Susano hands, people were screaming Itachi couldn't do the same because he hasn't done it. Funny how times have changed, eh. 


What's even funnier is Itachi losing to swamp of the underworld . 

That shit gets negged by this and gets hardened by Itachi's Katon. And no, Itachi does not need to use a huge katon to harden the area that he's going to land. As for the argument of Jiraiya "attacking Itachi in mid air while Itachi performs katon", Jiraiya doesn't have the sharingan to be able to intercept like that lmao. Even if he did, Itachi negs anything.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Serene Grace (Apr 28, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> That shit gets negged by this and gets hardened by Itachi's Katon.


why would he harden the swamp when, he's in the swamp? Makes no sense, as he wouldn't be able to anticipate the swamp, because to do that He'd either: have to be looking at the ground prior to Jiraiya summoning it, be in the air prior to that or have knowledge on it all of which are extremely unlikely. The swamp has also shown to accumulate extremely fast, as Jiraiya summoned it nigh instantly while being in the air, and has also shown to sink its target fast, as human path barely got a thought in when he got swamped,  while the scan above shows the snake being sunk pretty much instantly as well, so yah itachi gets rekted especially in his Susanoo form where he's heavier and an easier target to swamp

He also can't deduce Yomi numas nature with the sharingan, ck as Kakashi and Sasuke only deduced different natures via seals because Doton is normally associated with the* snake seal*. Yomi Numa is a *boar and tiger seal*, the latter is associated with *Katon, not Doton*. Nice try, you're wrong buddy. Also "Itachi negs anything" strong argument you got there buddyKappa


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## Sapherosth (Apr 28, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> why would he harden the swamp when, he's in the swamp? Makes no sense, as he wouldn't be able to anticipate the swamp, because to do that He'd either: have to be looking at the ground prior to Jiraiya summoning it, be in the air prior to that or have knowledge on it all of which are extremely unlikely. The swamp has also shown to accumulate extremely fast, as Jiraiya summoned it nigh instantly while being in the air, and has also shown to sink its target fast, as human path barely got a thought in when he got swamped,  while the scan above shows the snake being sunk pretty much instantly as well, so yah itachi gets rekted especially in his Susanoo form where he's heavier and an easier target to swamp



Why would Itachi be in the swamp exactly?  The dude has one of the top reflexes feats in the manga. 

The snake is fodder so that's not really comparable to Itachi in anyway whatsoever. The only other time the swamp caught someone is a blind and disposable path that was ignored and used as a foot step. 




> He also can't deduce Yomi numas nature with the sharingan, ck as Kakashi and Sasuke only deduced different natures via seals because *Doton is normally associated with the** snake seal**.* Yomi Numa is a *boar and tiger seal*, the latter is associated with *Katon, not Doton*. Nice try, you're wrong buddy




And what does that have to do with the sharingan somehow becoming useless because of it? Just because it's "normally associated with something" doesn't mean it renders the sharingan useless. Lmao. Itachi will simply see the seal and chakra build up and know that Jiraiya is up to something and anticipate it. Itachi has already reacted to shits like Muki Tensei which is TIERS above Yomi Numa whose best feats were capturing FODDER snakes and BLIND disposable path.


It's hypocritical to say that Itachi cannot dodge or react to something that Jiraiya has to perform seals for that Itachi can see and read easily with his sharingan but somehow Jiraiya can react to Itachi's Amateratsu which requires NO SEAL in addition to Jiraiya having NO SENSING feats and Jiraiya DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HOW AMATERATSU works, yet somehow counters it perfectly.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bookworm (Apr 28, 2017)

Arles Celes said:


> True, the swamp seems troublesome and Itachi's Susanoo lacks legs even.
> 
> Though why Jiraiya did not use it against Pain if it is so effective? Maybe it was due to plot but...
> 
> ...



Itachi still has his giant crow, if he jumped on that and flew above the swamp, he would be in the perfect position for Amaterasu snipe

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 28, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Itachi still has his giant crow, if he jumped on that and flew above the swamp, he would be in the perfect position for Amaterasu snipe




That's not a giant crow. That's a small crow close up.

Besides, he doesn't need to do that. He just jumps to Jiraiya to close the gap. Jiraiya won't be using Yomi Numa on the area where he's standing on. Not to mention the fact that Jiraiya has zero need to make a large swamp of the underworld on a small target in the first place. He made no such attempt when he was outnumbered, even BEFORE he knew it can absorb jutsu's.



Worst case scenario if Itachi is caught, he can simply use his Susano to get himself out. Itachi is the ONLY Susano user who is able to use Susano without being inside of it.

Susano grabs Itachi and lifts him up or it digs Itachi up from below. Fucking easy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## sabre320 (Apr 28, 2017)

Arles Celes said:


> EMS Sasuke's Susanoo arm could block a gudoudama spear from Juubito. Even if Sasuke by that point surpassed Itachi completely, Juubito was much stronger than Jiraiya ever could be. Enough for chou odama rasengan and I have doubts whether fcd would overpower it too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Madaras sussano have by far the best durability feats pre rikudo and his v2 sussano was failing against a base cor it was going to be crushed, senpo cor is far stronger then that there is no way in hell v1 partial sussano is tanking senpo cor or fcd..it was busted by a chop by raikage...


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## sabre320 (Apr 28, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> That's not a giant crow. That's a small crow close up.
> 
> Besides, he doesn't need to do that. He just jumps to Jiraiya to close the gap. Jiraiya won't be using Yomi Numa on the area where he's standing on. Not to mention the fact that Jiraiya has zero need to make a large swamp of the underworld on a small target in the first place. He made no such attempt when he was outnumbered, even BEFORE he knew it can absorb jutsu's.
> 
> ...


The problem is the sussano will also sink....where will sussano put itachi?  a drugged jirayia can make one much bigger then sussano against a giant chakra construct jirayia will build a large yomi numa which is already an a ranked jutsu senpo makes basket ball sized rasengans larger then chou oodama rasengans....stop contradicting the manga.. senpo techniques are far larger and stronger and a base technique is already capable of sinking boss summons much larger then sussano, not to mention itachi spamming v4 sussano every time while trying to counter yomi numa will leave itachi spewing more blood then he has in his body....sm has no draw backs while mas has massive ones especially with itachis 2.5 ranked stamina.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bookworm (Apr 28, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> That's not a giant crow. That's a small crow close up.
> 
> Besides, he doesn't need to do that. He just jumps to Jiraiya to close the gap. Jiraiya won't be using Yomi Numa on the area where he's standing on. Not to mention the fact that Jiraiya has zero need to make a large swamp of the underworld on a small target in the first place. He made no such attempt when he was outnumbered, even BEFORE he knew it can absorb jutsu's.
> 
> ...



While I disagree about the crow being small, your on point about Itachi only needing to close the gap with Jiraiya to avoid it.


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## Kyu (Apr 28, 2017)

Assuming Itachi fights conservatively, it's a very competitive fight.

Itachi in give-no-fucks mode, meaning Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi used right off the bat equates to a living nightmare for Jiraiya.

Not to say SM Jiraiya has no shot at edging out a win, I just find it unlikely he'd weather the storm. 


Looks weird as shit.

Jiraiya is 6'3. Itachi is south of 5'10.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Apr 28, 2017)

Man Uchiha fans are killing me


Sapherosth said:


> Why would Itachi be in the swamp exactly? The dude has one of the top reflexes feats in the manga.
> 
> The snake is fodder so that's not really comparable to Itachi in anyway whatsoever. The only other time the swamp caught someone is a blind and disposable path that was ignored and used as a foot step.


Itachis shown great speed feats in his susanoo, wtf? Dude were taking about Itachi getting one shot by Yomi numa in his SUSANOO FORM, show me his susanoo movement speed feats.



Sapherosth said:


> Itachi will simply see the seal and chakra build up


Wrong, you have no basis to suggest Itachi would be looking down, which is the only way hed be able to see the chakra build up, lol and what don't you get about the seal giving off *zero* indications? What the hell would Itachi get from the seal, and in what way would he know that the technique is a Doton nature which accumulates below him? Yah I don't think so, the sharingan doesn't allow Itachi see the vivid future, it ain't the almighty he lacks the sufficent knowledge to counter it, simple.



Sapherosth said:


> Itachi has already reacted to shits like Muki Tensei which is TIERS above Yomi Numa whose best feats were capturing FODDER snakes and BLIND disposable path


Lulz this isn't going to help you one bit. Itachi reacted with Susanoo, not physically so how does that mean he's gonna read a seal that wouldn't given him any indication of Yomi numa coming, him magically being aware of it below him and anticapate it coming below him jump then use katon? Explain



Sapherosth said:


> It's hypocritical to say that Itachi cannot dodge or react to something that Jiraiya has to perform seals for that Itachi can see and read easily with his sharingan but somehow Jiraiya can react to Itachi's Amateratsu which requires NO SEAL in addition to Jiraiya having NO SENSING feats and Jiraiya DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HOW AMATERATSU works, yet somehow counters it perfectly.


Jiraiya can actually sense where the chakra is building up meaning he'd know it is coming from his eye, unlike Itachi who literally has to be looking at the ground to know if Yomi Numa is popping up or not, which is exteremly unlikely. 

I also thought we finished taking about failaretsu


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## Azula (Apr 29, 2017)

Attacks that come suddenly from beneath are very effective :star and should be considered more.



Even Raikage who has excellent reflexes even in base was caught and only Muu who is a sensor sensed it and dodged it cleanly.

See, even though Edos were on autopilot to counter attacks they just couldn't do it time, they escaped later but Itachi once caught in swamp doesn't have way to get out.
If Itachi manifests susanoo it will get caught too. *Unfortunately susanoo is not a get-out-of-anything card. There is a limit to how much physical power it can muster and muscle it's way out of jutsus.*

Madara's susanoos were not able to fight off Oonoki's weight increasing jutsus and they are a lot bigger than Itachi's, susanoo will not be able to fight off the suction power of Jiraiya's swamp capable to completely restraining boss summons much greater in size.

And swamp is mostly a stalling jutsu, assuming of course that Itachi doesn't just sink completely and suffocates . Once Itachi is caught Jiraiya will likely follow up with Sage Oodama Rasengan. It would be a gg if Itachi doesn't have atleast V1 susanoo to protect him.

It's a no win scenario.
-He can't fight his way out of his swamp by himself. He can't tank Rasengan by himself.
-But if he manifests susanoo the susanoo will drag him down with itself and susanoo also cannot fight off the suction power of swamp.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Trojan (Apr 29, 2017)

Kyu said:


> Itachi in give-no-fucks mode, meaning Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi used right off the bat equates to a living nightmare for Jiraiya.


What nightmare? 

Sensing ability is the worst nightmare for those jutsu. 

Trashterasu can easily defeated/blocked/removed by a lot of shit
1- Clones, Rassengan, Earth-style, sealing it (like Jiraiya did btw), substitutions...etc etc. 
It's fascinating how we are in 2017 and people still take that garbage seriously. 

2- As for Tsukuyomi, it's a close rang jutsu. Itachi only used it when both opponent (part 1 Kakashi and child Sasuke, were directly looking at his eyes) Kakashi just looked like that
because he thought his sharingan can handle it. Otherwise, there wasn't a time where itachi
did it on anyone in a serious fight. 


Itachi's fans argument seems more like wishful thinking, to be honest.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 29, 2017)

sabre320 said:


> The problem is the sussano will also sink....where will sussano put itachi?  a drugged jirayia can make one much bigger then sussano against a giant chakra construct jirayia will build a large yomi numa which is already an a ranked jutsu senpo makes basket ball sized rasengans larger then chou oodama rasengans....stop contradicting the manga.. senpo techniques are far larger and stronger and a base technique is already capable of sinking boss summons much larger then sussano, not to mention itachi spamming v4 sussano every time while trying to counter yomi numa will leave itachi spewing more blood then he has in his body....sm has no draw backs while mas has massive ones especially with itachis 2.5 ranked stamina.




Lmao, show me yomi numa sinking anything so much that it cannot move its arms. At best it only sinks to the waist. Susano can literally just carry Itachi on its massive hand and use that to throw him out of the yomi numa range or throw him right at Jiraiya for a close range Amateratsu. Or Itachi simply uses his Susano as a stand and then harden the yomi numa with katon and then break free using its strength. 


The size of Yomi Numa really doesn't mean shit whatsoever. The only thing that matters are the yomi numa around susano and the fact that Jiraiya won't be using Yomi Numa on himself which makes closing the gap and getting close to Jiraiya a safe option. As for its feats, it never sank a "boss summon", it sank a FODDER summon who literally did nothing except used as a foot-stand. 


You say I "contradict the manga" yet I don't see ANYWHERE in my statement that contradicts the manga. 


Itachi's "2.5 rank stamina" doesn't really mean shit if Jiraiya can't even survive the first Tsukuyomi, Amateratsu or Susano. It will only be a factor if Jiraiya can survive against all of that.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 29, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> Attacks that come suddenly from beneath are very effective :star and should be considered more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






This is so hypocritical it's disgusting. 

Those edo's were on "auto-pilot mode" you say?    Was Nagato not also on auto-pilot mode yet he FAILED to counter Amateratsu?  Why does Jiraiya gets a free pass despite having no sensing feats whatsoever? 


Susano doesn't have to muscle itself out. All it has to do is get Itachi out of the swamp, which it can do since Itachi doesn't have to be inside his Susano. Susano can be manifested as a separate construct from Itachi and he can control that to literally get Itachi out.


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## Trojan (Apr 29, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> At best it only sinks to the waist. *Susano can literally just carry Itachi on its massive hand and use that to throw him out of the yomi numa* range or throw him


WTF is this shit! 

How do you even visualize that? 


Also, I see you already went into fanfiction realm. lol




> Itachi's "2.5 rank stamina" doesn't really mean shit if Jiraiya can't even survive the first Tsukuyomi, Amateratsu or Susano. It will only be a factor if Jiraiya can survive against all of that.



Itachi can't survive a Kunai stab, Rassengan, dropping a summon on him...etc etc
What's your point?


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## Azula (Apr 29, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> This is so hypocritical it's disgusting.







> Those edo's were on "auto-pilot mode" you say? Was Nagato not also on auto-pilot mode yet he FAILED to counter Amateratsu?



Partly because Amaterasu wasn't being aimed at him when he sensed the buildup and partly because Kabuto wanting to know what and how it happened (Itachi breaking edo tensei) took over him.



> Why does Jiraiya gets a free pass despite having no sensing feats whatsoever?



Because he has literally undergone the exact same training that Naruto has undergone and their mode share the exact same features, which is backed by databook?

Enormous strength, Increased speed, Enhanced Durability. When they share the majority of features, it does not matter if a couple of other things weren't shown as feats, statements about them are enough. The statement of sensing has a whole lot of other feats supporting it.

And please no imperfect-perfect SM shenaningans. The difference between their sage modes is more like 90% perfect balancing (Jiraiya) vs 100% perfect balancing (Naruto).



> Susano doesn't have to muscle itself out. All it has to do is get Itachi out of the swamp



It still comes down to having to fight against the suction power of swamp.



> which it can do since Itachi doesn't have to be inside his Susano. Susano can be manifested as a separate construct from Itachi and he can control that to literally get Itachi out.



See the page your are showing looks to be a case of bad drawing.... What logic is there in a jutsu primarily introduced as a defense manifesting outside user? Susanoo is always connected to the user. Doesn't the databook say something along the lines of chakra coming out of every part of user's body.

I don't think susanoo will work like you are saying.... and even if it could, is the susanoo going to float in air unaffected by swamp? Because Itachi is gonna be in the middle of the swamp....



> Lmao, show me yomi numa sinking anything so much that it cannot move its arms. At best it only sinks to the waist.



Its meant to completely sink the target, if you are refering to human path sinking, it was in the ceiling, don't think that the ceilings are thick enough to have space for a human being.



> Susano can literally just carry Itachi on its massive hand and use that to throw him out of the yomi numa range or throw him right at Jiraiya for a close range Amateratsu. Or Itachi simply uses his Susano as a stand and then harden the yomi numa with katon and then break free using its strength.



All your arguments for Susanoo being effective against Yomi Numa don't mention how Susanoo itself will be unaffected by swamp 

After all only when it itself is not dragged down can it help Itachi.

And nothing short of floating in air and being unconnected to user will do, which I don't think it can.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 29, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> And nothing short of floating in air and being unconnected to user will do, which I don't think it can.





Why can't this Susano just use its free hands that's not trapped inside Yomi Numa to get Itachi out exactly?   Explain......Seriously, explain. Itachi is the only Susano user in the manga so  far who's shown this ability of manifesting Susano outside.







Your point about it being a "bad drawing" is complete and utter horseshit. This proves it enough.

Oh yes, and I don't recall the swamp sinking anything above the waist so its arms are definitely free and its shield/swords as well.


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## Ayala (Apr 29, 2017)

People put too much stock into Yomi Numa honestly. 

Jiraiya's fastest and widest range tech by his own admission is Kebari Senbon, and even it wasn't faster than Animal could summon, from few meters of distance. 

Almost every tech has a set time before it takes full effect, the swamp doesn't get instantly created, just like Doton walls don't get instantly created. The theme is "every jutsu has a weakness and a counter", a Doton jutsu with no real hype is no exception either. People always argue that even MS techs have counters, how is it that now Yomi Numa is a GG? 

Muki Tensei has real hype, is more dangerous, its speed is emphasised, still it wasn't instant, and Itachi could react and counter it in time.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 29, 2017)

Bimbo-3 said:


> People put too much stock into Yomi Numa honestly.
> 
> Jiraiya's fastest and widest range tech by his own admission is Kebari Senbon, and even it wasn't faster than Animal could summon, from few meters of distance.
> 
> ...



This is so true 

Even when I actually entertain the notion of Itachi actually being caught, gave them a valid counter of how Itachi escapes it, they would still say it's impossible.


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## Trojan (Apr 29, 2017)

Bimbo-3 said:


> People put too much stock into Yomi Numa honestly.


More like they put too much stock into itachi's jutsu to wank him. 
So much so that some people even started to separate Sasuke's Amaterasu and itachi's just to say "Because it's itachi's, it will work. Unlike when Sasuke uses" 



> nd Itachi could react and counter it in time.


itachi becoming a hedgehog is now countering?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ayala (Apr 29, 2017)

Hussain said:


> More like they put too much stock into itachi's jutsu to wank him.
> So much so that some people even started to separate Sasuke's Amaterasu and itachi's just to say "Because it's itachi's, it will work. Unlike when Sasuke uses"
> 
> 
> itachi becoming a hedgehog is now countering?



MS techs are generally more dangerous and have way more hype than general ninjutsu, not for nothing the MS has such drawbacks too.

Tsukuyomi is a one shot if you don't have knowledge or make a false move. Same for Amaterasu.

Amaterasu has the hype, the statements, and the feats too. The flames are stated and proved to be superior and hotter than any other flame, burning Sasuke's wing and Jiraiya's frog stomach in a few moments. That's in line with the hype the tech has.

Other times when it barely burns through a shirt and can't even burn through a simple armor, that's an outlier imo, it's not in line with its portrayal and what we know of the tech, because even a simple Fireball Jutsu would accomplish more than Amaterasu did in these cases.

Itachi was stated to have seen it coming by Kabuto himself, in fact he managed to make a defense around Sasuke. That's a reaction and counter.


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## Trojan (Apr 29, 2017)

> [="Bimbo-3, post: 56861282, member: 251202"]MS techs are generally more dangerous and have way more hype than general ninjutsu, not for nothing the MS has such drawbacks too.



Not really. Just like any other jutsu, they are stronger than some and weaker than others.  Nothing out of the ordinary there. 


> Tsukuyomi is a one shot if you don't have knowledge or make a false move. Same for Amaterasu.



frankly, there is no reason to think that about Tsukuyomi. It's just because its usage throughout the manga was EXTREMELY limited.
That's why people are not getting their heads over it. Tsukuyomi's best feat was defeating Part 1 Kakashi, by no means is that a proof
that it will 1-shot everyone else. The only other feat it has is torturing Kid-Sasuke, and even then he actually stood up and went over
itachi after it. That's literally it! 

Amaterasu is not a OHKO either. We have seen dozens of ways/characters counter it like nothing. That's why I said people
want to wank any jutsu itachi does for the heck of it since he is a popular character and the fans want to see him at a specific level
regardless of anything that disproves their stand. 



> Amaterasu has the hype, the statements, and the feats too. The flames are stated and proved to be superior and hotter than any other flame, burning Sasuke's wing and Jiraiya's frog stomach in a few moments. That's in line with the hype the tech has.



Yet it did not burn Asspulldara's hair/clothes. 
The Raikage did not even sweats. And it's failure CV is a big one.  




> Other times when it barely burns through a shirt and can't even burn through a simple armor, that's an outlier imo, it's not in line with its portrayal and what we know of the tech, because even a simple Fireball Jutsu would accomplish more than Amaterasu did in these cases.



No, it's not an outlier since that is the most that happened at this point. If anything, burning Jiraiya's frog stomach is the outlier since
it was the first time it's being used and Kishi probably wanted it to be "cool" in its first performance. We can't take 1 or 2 times as the
main thing, and leave the dozens of times that it failed after that. 

And hence, why people put too much stock into it just because it's one of itachi's main/strongest jutsu. Its exactly like how some people
were trying to prove that itachi's Magatamas as some ultra powerful jutsu!  

frankly, anything itachi does no matter how pitiful it is, it gets EXTREMELY over-exaggerated to a ridiculous level. There are tons of examples for those. 




> Itachi was stated to have seen it coming by Kabuto himself, in fact he managed to make a defense around Sasuke. That's a reaction and counter.



Except for the fact that Kabuto stated that he was not targeting Sasuke in the first place. Itachi's thoughts were proven wrong in this case.
Also, he was only able to use a part of the Susanoo (the hand) so, even if he used it to protect himself, he would have only protected himself from 1 direction only, and he would have still getting hit from the other spikes....


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## Azula (Apr 29, 2017)

Bimbo-3 said:


> Jiraiya's fastest and widest range tech by his own admission is Kebari Senbon, and even it wasn't faster than Animal could summon, from few meters of distance.





The jutsus that attack from beneath work because they have the element of surprise. Why did I highlight Raikage getting caught but Muu dodging? Because sensing it before it gets you is the key not speed or reflexes. Itachi is not a sensor to be able to anticipate attacks from beneath.

Bringing up Kebari Senbon works against you because Animal path had shared vision with Asura who saw Jiraiya getting ready to attack him and summoning happens to be one of the fastest method to defend, faster than moving physically for almost everyone below raikages, which is not applicable to Itachi and Yomi Numa situation and neither does have anyone or anything to warm him of an attack from beneath.

Kebari Senbon being fastest attack has no relevancy, Yomi Numa works as a surprise attack. Yomi Numa being quick enough to catch target is an added bonus.



> Almost every tech has a set time before it takes full effect



Too bad Human path literally couldn't do anything the moment it set foot on the Yomi Numa ceiling. 



> the swamp doesn't get instantly created, just like Doton walls don't get instantly created



Being instant is not a prerequisite for an attack to land, Yomi Numa is fast enough



> The theme is "every jutsu has a weakness and a counter"



This is the most badly abused statement I swear. 

Every jutsu has a weakness *but not every shinobi has the capability or oppotunity to exploit the weakness and come out as a winner.
*
Jiraiya's oil has a weakness that is foam but konan can't counter it, nagato can because he has the abiility to do so.
Kakashi figured out the weakness of Deva but still couldn't defeat him because Deva pulled a last minute defense about which kakashi had no idea.

Itachi's intelligence wouldn't mean shit if he lacks the proper jutsu to actually exploit the weakness. Intelligence is merely half the work.



> a Doton jutsu with no real hype is no exception either. People always argue that even MS techs have counters, how is it that now Yomi Numa is a GG?



Doton techniques have a weakness and it's raiton techniques, too bad Itachi specifically doesn't have raiton techniques. 



> Muki Tensei has real hype, is more dangerous, its speed is emphasised, still it wasn't instant, and Itachi could react and counter it in time.



Itachi saw Muki Tensei coming. 

He can't see Yomi Numa coming, you see the problem.

And lol "real hype", Yomi Numa has worked on both large summons and humans. The snakes that can move fast and paths that had doujutsu that can see chakra and were repeatedly praised for their speed.

Both the  and human path were shocked because they were caught off guard and it happened quickly enough.

What does Muki tensei have as its feats?

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## Sapherosth (Apr 29, 2017)

Talks about Tsukuyomi being over-wanked because of its limited feats > But agrees that Yomi Numa works against Itachi despite it having limited feats also.

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## Ayala (Apr 29, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> The jutsus that attack from beneath work because they have the element of surprise. Why did I highlight Raikage getting caught but Muu dodging? Because sensing it before it gets you is the key not speed or reflexes. Itachi is not a sensor to be able to anticipate attacks from beneath.
> 
> Bringing up Kebari Senbon works against you because Animal path had shared vision with Asura who saw Jiraiya getting ready to attack him and summoning happens to be one of the fastest method to defend, faster than moving physically for almost everyone below raikages, which is not applicable to Itachi and Yomi Numa situation and neither does have anyone or anything to warm him of an attack from beneath.
> 
> ...



Gaara's sand and Yomi Numa are two different cases. The kages were looking up to Gaara and weren't even engaging him, while Gaara pulled the hand from sand already positioned under the kages feet, sand he can control at any moment.

As i said, the swamp isn't instantly formed. He can feel it and move accordingly. Kakashi doesn't make sound and is extremely swift, came from underground (where Itachi couldn't see) and Itachi still reacted and dodged.

Yomi Numa has different weaknesses actually, not a single one. The way you put it, only raiton users (and S/T jutsu users) can hope to get to deal with Yomi Numa, for everyone else it's a GG. But it's not though. You need distance, you need Itachi standing there doing nothing, you need Itachi being completely oblivious to the terrain formation under his feet changing shape and consistence, you need too many conditions...

The Yomi Numa that trapped Human was already prepped in advance as Jiraiya didn't make any seal for it, but instead was pumping flame. Then you can see that Human noticed Yomi Numa before getting absorbed, but was pushed deeper by Animal jumping towards him. That or Human simply had no other choice but to stay there, or else get fried by Jiraiya's Katon.

Lets not make Yomi Numa a GG please, it's not a GG. Saying a single Doton jutsu outright kills one of the most intelligent and perceptive kage levels in Naruto is insane. Itachi or any other decent ninja could jump and apply chakra to the feet to neg its effects, just like Kotetsu does to neg the Water Syrup's high viscosity effects, even if he was to get almost caught.

----------------------------------------------

@Hussain

MS techs are generally accepted as superior to normal ninjutsu, in story too MS is considered a great deal.

Tsukiyomi is a one shot, confirmed over and over. It's a mental jutsu, it doesn't matter how strong you are, it downs you, 72 hours of torture mentally destroy any character. Kisame was impressed how Kakashi could still be counscious, and even then, he went down moments after, in coma until Tsunade returned (not to mention that Kakashi's own sharingan mitigated the effects). Even Gai was surprised how could something push Kakashi so far, knocking him out. Sasuke only broke it due to superior sharingan, and even then it got him sweating pretty hard.

Amaterasu is confirmed to be hotter and better than any flame, if you believe a MS tech to be inferior to a C-rank Katon, then go ahead, but Itachi's katon just slightly burned Sasuke's wing, his Amaterasu melted it in seconds.

Doesn't matter what Kabuto says, no one takes his enemy's words for the truth, expecially Kabuto's ones. Itachi's primal instict is to defend his brother. Kabuto himself confirmed it was due to defending Sasuke that he got hit himself. It takes a mental reaction to activate ribacage.

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## Trojan (Apr 29, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Talks about Tsukuyomi being over-wanked because of its limited feats > But agrees that Yomi Numa works against Itachi despite it having limited feats also.



The swap does have limited feats, but it worked in the same situations. 
Itachi does not have a superior eye to the Rinnegan to say he will know it for example.
He does not an extraordinary physical power to say "He can pull himself out"
Nor does he have lightning element to say "Well, he might counter it with that"
Nor was he shown to have such a speed to cover that area instantly for example. 

Or many other shit.

Meanwhile, people's mental ability is different. Their ability to endure is different, and it's not like Kakashi is the best one known for those type of things. People go so far to say BM Naruto, Hashirama, Tsunade....etc etc all will get defeated because Part 1 Kakashi did. 


Even when Tsunade showed that she can heal the Tsukuyomi effect in no time with her weakest healing power, but somehow, it will effect her in her Byakugo or something. 



In Jiraiya's case. He is a Sage mode user, and we have seen that SM users can fight while being blind and rely on their sensing abilities.
Itachi's chance to land that shit is extremely slim to almost none-existing.

Yet, itachi's fans always try to convince other people that "Genjutsu is automatic" and bring garbage like "oh look, Jiraiya was looking at Itachi! Tsokyumi GG. "

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## Serene Grace (Apr 29, 2017)

Wait so people can say Itachis nigh featless finger genjutsu can gg people like Minato, but saying Yomi numa can gg people is bad? You guys have nothing left clearly, you aren't even bringing up points, you're just saying that "Yomi numa isn't a gg technique" and "Itachi is too strong or smart to not get caught"


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## Bookworm (Apr 29, 2017)

The water Syrup jutsu is sticky just like Yomi Numa and it was countered by water walking.


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## Garcher (Apr 29, 2017)

only an uchiha can beat an uchiha

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## Serene Grace (Apr 29, 2017)

Bimbo-3 said:


> As i said, the swamp isn't instantly formed.


It doesn't need to form instantly, it just needs to to be fast enough, which it clearly is.



Bimbo-3 said:


> Kakashi doesn't make sound and is extremely swift, came from underground (where Itachi couldn't see) and Itachi still reacted and dodged


Well to be fair, , so it wasn't that hard for Itachi to infer that kakashi went undergrounder and hid, lol. So that being said, how does this prove your point again?



Bimbo-3 said:


> *Then you can see that Human noticed Yomi Numa before getting absorbed*, but was pushed deeper by Animal jumping towards him. That or Human simply had no other choice but to stay there, or else get fried by Jiraiya's Katon.


bold is blatantly wrong. Human path only noticed it after Animal path saw the swamp, so he was able to visualize it via shared vision, , so human path was able to visualize it with shared vision. If Animal path wasn't there, Human would have never noticed it until he was already swamped, again this isn't proving your point.



Bimbo-3 said:


> Lets not make Yomi Numa a GG please, it's not a GG


OK,  lol. The irony in this post is off the charts. Itachi can one shot minato, and Tobirama with his nigh featless finger genjutsu, but Jiraiya cant gg Itachi in his Susanoo with Yomi numa? Why? Itachi can't deduce Yomi Numa's nature via reading Jiraiya as Kakashi and Sasuke only deduced different natures via seals because Doton is normally associated with the* snake seal*. Yomi Numa is a *boar and tiger seal*, the latter is associated with *Katon, not Doton, *so Itachi wouldon't be able to predict Jiraiya is summoning a Doton technique nor will he know it accumulates from the ground. He isnt gonna see the chakra accumulating unless he's looking down at the ground which is exteremly unlikely.


Bimbo-3 said:


> Saying a single Doton jutsu outright kills one of the most intelligent and perceptive kage levels in Naruto is insane.


Lol, not a point.



Bimbo-3 said:


> You need distance,


Not that much distance, he just needs to make one in proption to Itachis susanoo or slightly bigger.



Bimbo-3 said:


> you need Itachi standing there doing nothing


You want me to show you the plethora of scans where Itachi was "just standing there" while in susanoo in a battle situation? 

inhibit a person's mobility.


Trolling said:


> The water Syrup jutsu is sticky just like Yomi Numa and it was countered by water walking.


Yes but Yomi numa specifically sucks opponents down and submerges them completely. The Syrup Jutsu only stops movement of the legs. It's purely made to stick someone's feet onto the ground. It immobilizes opponents so that they are caught off guard and can be attacked. If you couldn't reach the opponent it would be pointless, because they could still use jutsu.
Two completely different mechanics . And even if we were to say this method is correct, ypud have to channel the chakra to your feet  beforehand, not while in the process of sinking, hence why Kakuzu didn't simply channel chakra into his feet while he got stuck by it, for Itachi to be able to do this he'd have to have knowledge on yomi numa and what it does which he clearly doesn't, or he'd have to be looking at the ground so he could see the chakra building up, and I think we already know that saying Itachi randomly looking at the ground for no reason is plain stupid.
Oh yah and Yomi numa working on human path completely contradicts this feet to chakra bullshit. Human clearly had chakra going to his feet since he was about to run across the ceiling while advancing towards Jiraiya and yet he still got stuck and trapped by the yomi swamp, so this point is debunked don't ever bring it up again

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## Ayala (Apr 29, 2017)

Lol Strawberry, go cry in a corner lmao  

No one's saying finger genjutsu gg you child lol  

What people are saying is Tsukuyomi, a MS tech, over an over confirmed a one shot tech would down anyone it lands in. ￼ 

Grow up kid, Itaxhi solos your favourite any day of the week, even Monday, the worst day of the week. 

You can cry on my or Sapherosth shoulder if you want. 

War is never so simple, Yomi Numa GG, lol, where you from

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## Troyse22 (Apr 29, 2017)

Jiraiya with virtually no sensing feats, and it's unclear if he can even sense at all per narutos statement, can suddenly sense the buildup of chakra in Itachis eye.

This Jiraiya wank is getting a little absurd.

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## Bookworm (Apr 29, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Yes but Yomi numa specifically sucks opponents down and submerges them completely. The Syrup Jutsu only stops movement of the legs. It's purely made to stick someone's feet onto the ground. It immobilizes opponents so that they are caught off guard and can be attacked. If you couldn't reach the opponent it would be pointless, because they could still use jutsu.
> Two completely different mechanics . And even if we were to say this method is correct, ypud have to channel the chakra to your feet  beforehand, not while in the process of sinking, hence why Kakuzu didn't simply channel chakra into his feet while he got stuck by it, for Itachi to be able to do this he'd have to have knowledge on yomi numa and what it does which he clearly doesn't, or he'd have to be looking at the ground so he could see the chakra building up, and I think we already know that saying Itachi randomly looking at the ground for no reason is plain stupid.
> Oh yah and Yomi numa working on human path completely contradicts this feet to chakra bullshit. Human clearly had chakra going to his feet since he was about to run across the ceiling while advancing towards Jiraiya and yet he still got stuck and trapped by the yomi swamp, so this point is debunked don't ever bring it up again



No you didn't debunk that point. Animal path pushed off of human path. Secondly do you have proof that human path was going to walk on the wall as oppose to jump off it?


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## Sapherosth (Apr 29, 2017)

I am actually still waiting for someone to debunk my method of ESCAPING Yomi Numa using Susano.

It's funny how they're conveniently ignoring it and go on a rant about how Yomi Numa is too fast and that it will always land.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 29, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Animal path pushed off of human path


Which means jack since Human path only noticed the swamp because Animal path saw it for him.




Trolling said:


> Secondly do you have proof that human path was going to walk on the wall as oppose to jump off it


Good point, but I like how you conveniently ignored my other points on why it would work, well it's OK I'm nice enough to post it for you

"Yes but Yomi numa specifically sucks opponents down and submerges them completely. The Syrup Jutsu only stops movement of the legs. It's purely made to stick someone's feet onto the ground. It immobilizes opponents so that they are caught off guard and can be attacked. If you couldn't reach the opponent it would be pointless, because they could still use jutsu.
Two completely different mechanics . And even if we were to say this method is correct, you'd have to channel the chakra to your feet beforehand, not while in the process of sinking, hence why Kakuzu didn't simply channel chakra into his feet while he got stuck by it, for Itachi to be able to do this he'd have to have knowledge on yomi numa and what it does which he clearly doesn't, or he'd have to be looking at the ground so he could see the chakra building up, and I think we already know that saying Itachi randomly looking at the ground for no reason is plain stupid."




Sapherosth said:


> Why can't this Susano just use its free hands that's not trapped inside Yomi Numa to get Itachi out exactly? Explain......Seriously, explain. Itachi is the only Susano user in the manga so far who's shown this ability of manifesting Susano outside.


You don't get it. Where arguing that Itachi would be trapped while his Susanoo form is already active, so he'd have to know the swamp sinks it's opponents prior to him being trapped in it, dectivate his Susanoo,  then form it again outside of the swamp. Itachi would have likely sunk by then, so Yah.


Sapherosth said:


> Oh yes, and I don't recall the swamp sinking anything above the waist so its arms are definitely free and its shield/swords as well.


Lol stop reaching bud, it was out right stated by Jiraiya that he couldn't sink the snake summoning with a puny swamp like that, clearly meaning that Yomi numa can be used to sink opponents as well depending on the amount of characters infused to the swamp which increases it's depth and width this furthur gets affirmed by its databook entry
"By changing the surface of an object beneath the target into mud and creating a swamp, the user can sink their target into the mud. The adhesive, chakra-infused mud ensnares the body, making it almost impossible to recover one's strength and escape from the swamp. The *size* and *depth* of the created swamp depends on the user's skill and the amount of chakra used, but if the user is an expert in this technique, it will always be possible to make a fair-sized swamp which is extremely effective against a great number of enemies or when having to face gigantic creatures"

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## Bookworm (Apr 29, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Which means jack since Human path only noticed the swamp because Animal path saw it for him.


 Animal Path was blinded he couldn't of saw for him.

Also how would Jiraiya counter Amaterasu if he doesn't know it comes from Itachi's eyes? How we he counter being ambushed and killed by a genjutsu controlled Ma or Pa? How would he counter Tsukuyomi?


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## Serene Grace (Apr 29, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Animal Path was blinded he couldn't of saw for him.


Blinded...by wait? The swamp was literally right in front of him

#allmylols seems like you're getting deseperate 



Trolling said:


> Also how would Jiraiya counter Amaterasu if he doesn't know it comes from Itachi's eyes?


Are you serious? He'd sense the chakra build up coming from eyes like Nagato did, but unlike conventional chakra sensing Jiraiyas sage mode sensing would give him a direct link of where the chakra is coming from .



Trolling said:


> How we he counter being ambushed and killed by a genjutsu controlled Ma or Pa?


He could wake either of them up via partner method, their both literally right beside him he'd easily tell if they were in genjutsu or not. 



Trolling said:


> How would he counter Tsukuyomi?


By not looking at his eyes and relying on sensing? Simple. Jiraiya also has knows that itachi can mess with people's minds via his eyes, and he oretty much saw Itachi put Sasuke in genjutsu so he simply doesn't look at his eyes and relying on sensing.


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## Bookworm (Apr 29, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Blinded...by wait? The swamp was literally right in front of him
> 
> #allmylols seems like you're getting deseperate


Blinded by Jiraiya's kick to his eyes. Don't you see animal paths eyes are closed?


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Are you serious? He'd sense the chakra build up coming from eyes like Nagato did, but unlike conventional chakra sensing Jiraiyas sage mode sensing would give him a direct link of where the chakra is coming from .


And how does Jiraiya know that chakra build up in the eye is connected to Amaterasu? Katon are normally performed threw the mouth. Besides SM sensing isn't passive.


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> He could wake either of them up via partner method, their both literally right beside him he'd easily tell if they were in genjutsu or not.


Itachi can have Ma or Pa immediately attack Jiraiya as soon as their in genjutsu, so that wouldn't work even if Jiraiya could tell they were in genjutsu.


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> By not looking at his eyes and relying on sensing? Simple. Jiraiya also has knows that itachi can mess with people's minds via his eyes, and he oretty much saw Itachi put Sasuke in genjutsu so he simply doesn't look at his eyes and relying on sensing.


Just because Itachi did that to Sasuke, doesn't mean Jiraiya wouldn't look at his eyes. Besides fighting while not looking at the eyes is not easy, Gai an expert at fighting Sharingan Kakashi, had to look at the feet. Itachi has more than one way to force eye contact.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 29, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Blinded by Jiraiya's kick to his eyes. Don't you *see animal paths eyes are closed*?


I stopped reading right here tbh, if you're not gonna be serious here with me, then I see no reason why I should continue this with you, honestly.


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## Bookworm (Apr 29, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I stopped reading right here tbh, if you're not gonna be serious here with me, then I see no reason why I should continue this with you, honestly.



Your choice bub. Concession accepted.

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## Sapherosth (Apr 30, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Which means jack since Human path only noticed the swamp because Animal path saw it for him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Yet I don't see animal path sinking above the waist at all..... in fact, it hasn't sunk anyone or anything completely before. 

also, show me the feats of SM sensing chakra specifically like what you've mentioned?


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## Trojan (Apr 30, 2017)

Bimbo-3 said:


> MS techs are generally accepted as superior to normal ninjutsu, in story too MS is considered a great deal.


What is your definition of normal Ninjutsu?
FTG, ET, the Gates, Jinton...etc etc?

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## Serene Grace (Apr 30, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Yet I don't see *animal* path sinking above the waist at all


Do you mean human path? It was used as a stall tatic as the surface it wad used on clearly wadnt thick enough there, Jiraiya blatantly stated that this puny swamp wouldn't sink the snake so the swamp so Yomi Numa can sink people completely or below the waist, databook also stated that he can increase depth of the swamp by adding more chakra so people sink deeper, stop reaching.



Sapherosth said:


> also, show me the feats of SM sensing chakra specifically like what you've mentioned?


You mean the same sensing that allowed Naruto to locate Nagato(1)(2)?

There's also a blatant scan of Nagato sensing chakra build up directly from Itachi's eyes so there's that()

SM sensing>conventional chakra sensing

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## Sapherosth (Apr 30, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Do you mean human path? It was used as a stall tatic as the surface it wad used on clearly wadnt thick enough there, Jiraiya blatantly stated that this puny swamp wouldn't sink the snake so the swamp so Yomi Numa can sink people completely or below the waist, databook also stated that he can increase depth of the swamp by adding more chakra so people sink deeper, stop reaching.





Lmao, this is stupid as fuck. 

So you blame it on the ceiling for a SAGE MODE Yomi Numa not being able to sink the path? 

Wow....I thought it can be as deep as you want it to be?  Lmfao. 




> You mean the same sensing that allowed Naruto to locate Nagato(1)(2)?
> 
> There's also a blatant scan of Nagato sensing chakra build up directly from Itachi's eyes so there's that()
> 
> SM sensing>conventional chakra sensing



Once again, this is wrong on so many levels. 

Naruto sensed Nagato's chakra that's being inserted into himself, thus locating Nagato's location. A similar feat to Nagato locating Kabuto's location actually, so it isn't superior to Nagato whatsoever. 

And Nagato never said he sensed chakra anywhere so you're just making shit up. 


Kabuto who was also a Sage mode user whose sensing feats outshines that of even SM Naruto still couldn't sense the buildup of Amateratsu before it was fired. You're telling me that some inferior SM user who was stated to be shit at sage mode is going to sense better than that?  

Fuck outta here.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 30, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Lmao, this is stupid as fuck.
> 
> So you blame it on the ceiling for a SAGE MODE Yomi Numa not being able to sink the path?
> 
> Wow....I thought it can be as deep as you want it to be? Lmfao.



I don't give a crap what you say tbh, Jiraiya stated that this puny swamp can't sink that snake, and the data book stated that he can increase the depth of the swamp clearly proving that Yomi Numa can sink opponents completely or deeper than the waist, again stop reaching. Lol look at you struggling.


Sapherosth said:


> And Nagato never said he sensed chakra anywhere so you're just making shit up.


Oh my god dude you're soo dense. Nagato said he felt something the SAME exact moment that ItachI was preparing an Amaterasu. But hey, Karin was said to feel the temperature of her opponents chakra()()(3), so how is the that any different from Nagato saying that he feels the build up of amaterasu in Itachi's  and especially when Juubito literally sensed Amaterasu the *same* exact way Nagato would have.I need an answer. , Itachi wasnt in process of using Amaterasu nor did he even use a *chakra* _*based*_ attack right after Zetsu said that(1)(2) , it would be pretty stupid to mix the two situations up. But honesty what basis do you have other then Nagato not saying the word sense? Nothing, alright.



Sapherosth said:


> Kabuto who was also a Sage mode user whose sensing feats outshines that of even SM Naruto still couldn't sense the buildup of Amateratsu before it was fired. You're telling me that some inferior SM user who was stated to be shit at sage mode is going to sense better than that?
> 
> Fuck outta here.


Kabuto probably didn't attempt to sense Amaterasu since he was already aware that neither Itachi or Sasuke were trying to kill him. Anyways both Juubito and Nagato sensed it's buildup so mute point pretty much?


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## Sapherosth (Apr 30, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I don't give a crap what you say tbh, Jiraiya stated that this puny swamp can't sink that snake, and the data book stated that he can increase the depth of the swamp clearly proving that Yomi Numa can sink opponents completely or deeper than the waist, again stop reaching. Lol look at you struggling.
> 
> Oh my god dude you're soo dense. Nagato said he felt something the SAME exact moment that ItachI was preparing an Amaterasu. But hey, Karin was said to feel the temperature of her opponents chakra()()(3), so how is the that any different from Nagato saying that he feels the build up of amaterasu in Itachi's  and especially when Juubito literally sensed Amaterasu the *same* exact way Nagato would have.I need an answer. , Itachi wasnt in process of using Amaterasu nor did he even use a *chakra* _*based*_ attack right after Zetsu said that(1)(2) , it would be pretty stupid to mix the two situations up. But honesty what basis do you have other then Nagato not saying the word sense? Nothing, alright.
> 
> ...





Wait, so why wasn't Kabuto sensing exactly?  He closed his eyes off so every move he makes relies on his sensing. Him not sensing Amateratsu like Juubito did simply means it couldn't.


The ONE time that a SM user faced off against Amateratsu and didn't sense you choose to ignore it, but when Nagato felt something whilst being next to Itachi you automatically assumed that Nagato sensed its chakra and not its atmosphere buildup like Zetsu.

And Amateratsu doesn't have a fucking temperature of the user's chakra, lmao. Likewise, Juubito didn't say "Sasuke, i sensed the change in the temperature of your chakra" now, did he?


Now you're trying to say that another inferior SM user can sense what a superior SM user couldn't?   Fucking reaching.

As for Yomi Numa, show me the evidence of it being able to sink Itachi before he's able to escape? As far as I recall, that shit never sank anything entirely. Do you even know how quicksand works?



As for your "proof" that what Zetsu felt wasn't Amateratsu, are you fucking kidding me?   This panel Zetsu said the air around Itachi is changing, and the next panel we see Itachi building up chakra and closing his eyes. That's literally the same thing as what happened with Nagato.






You think Itachi closed his eyes for the lolz?






It's still funny how you think Jiraiya would try and sense Itachi using Amateratsu when another better SM user (Kabuto) didn't even sense it despite Kabuto* ACTIVELY* using sensing. 


 Jiraiya never attempted to use sensing at all in the manga despite having the perfect need for it when trying to find the chameleon. No attempts of "chakra sensing" was made whatsoever and he relied entirely on the movement sensing barrier. This alone proves that Jiraiya doesn't have SM sensing like the other users.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 30, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Yomi Numa sinks far faster than that, as made evident wth human path and the snake* it was so quick that we didn't even see the process of them sinking.*







This made me laughed so much. 

As for the rest of your post, that's just regurgitated bullshit that I've already countered. I'll leave it to the more intelligent audience to decipher how bad your arguments actually are themselves. I've done my part.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Serene Grace (Apr 30, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> This made me laughed so much.
> 
> As for the rest of your post, that's just regurgitated bullshit that I've already countered. I'll leave it to the more intelligent audience to decipher how bad your arguments actually are themselves. I've done my part.


Well ladies and gentlemen it looks like that's a wrapKappanext time let's not try to run off like a little girl alright saph? Alright Kappaconcession accepted


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 2, 2017)

ITachi Vs Jiraiya battle is a close death-battle. I always consider as tough one. But since J-Man starts with SM. There is no way Itachi is gonna consider far stronger or superior in this fight. 

Sensing Barrier+Fuka Fujin + Hairs -> Amaterasu
Sensing Barrier + Elder Toads + Gamadaira -> Tsukiyomi
Gama Rİnsho + Yomi NUma -> Susano

Jiriaya has full with answers agains MS techs and itachi cant use them for long.

It eventualy come down to basic abilities of both of'em and Tired Itachi cant match with almost limitless Sage. 

Portrayal & Reputation also support SM Jiraiya's victory here.

SM Jiraiya with mid-high diff.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TheGreen1 (May 4, 2017)

This is in Jiraiya's favor here. 

All I have to say is, "Frog Song GG".


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## StandingMan (May 5, 2017)

Can Sage Mode save JMan from Itachi's MS genjutsu?

If not he is toast, it's only a matter of time until JMan looks at him and gets his mind snapped like a pretzel.

Plus, Itachi is practically the Batman of Naruto. It took him all of about five seconds to identify Nagato's attacks and figure out a way to counter them.

Itachi's genius, plus all the MS hax crap equals a win.

Reactions: Like 1


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