# Low, Mid, or High.



## Wolfstein (Nov 4, 2013)

All of these characters are arguably kage level, but where exactly do they stand as far as _kage level_ goes? Low, Mid or High Kage? 

Characters to rank...
Ei
Tsunade
Onoki
Gaara
Mei
Kakashi
Gai
Itachi
Jiraiya
Minato
Mu
4th Kazekage
2nd Mizukage
Tobirama 
Hiruzen
Orochimaru

Feel free to add another category if need be.


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## Ersa (Nov 4, 2013)

Minato/Tobirama/Itachi (Edo) would roflstomp any Kage. They are in a league of their own.

However with your list it goes.

Not Kage
Minato / Itachi (Edo)
Tobirama

High Kage
Itachi
Jiraiya / Orochimaru
Kakashi
Onoki
Mu

Mid Kage
Ei
Gai
Tsunade
Hiruzen

Low Kage
Mei
Gaara
4th Kazekage


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## Coppur (Nov 4, 2013)

Ei- Mid

Tsunade- Mid

Onoki- Mid-High

Gaara- Mid-Low

Mei- Low

Kakashi-  High

Gai- Mid-High

Itachi (Sick)- High

Itachi (Edo)- Very High

Jiraiya- High

Minato (Edo)- Off the charts

Minato (living)- Very High

Mu- High

4th Kazekage- Low

2nd Mizukage- Mid-High

Tobirama- High-Very High

Hiruzen- Low

Orochimaru- High


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## RBL (Nov 4, 2013)

*Not Kage*
Minato / Itachi (Edo)
Tobirama

*High Kage*
Itachi
Gai
Kakashi
Onoki
Mu

*Mid Kage*
Jiraiya / Orochimaru
Ei
Tsunade
Hiruzen

*Low Kage*
Mei
Gaara
4th Kazekage


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## Rocky (Nov 4, 2013)

_*Beyond*_
_Minato
[*]Itachi
[*]Tobirama
[*]Kakashi ~ Gai (Including the 8th Gate)_

_*High*_
_Onoki ~ Ei
[*]Jiraiya
[*]Muu ~ Nindaime Mizukage
[*]Orochimaru_

_*Mid*_
_Tsunade
[*]Mei ~ Gaara_

_*Low*_
_Hiruzen
[*]4th Kazekage_


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## Veracity (Nov 4, 2013)

High Kage;
Minato
Tobirama
Itachi

Mid Kage;
Sannin
Masters
Gokage
Mu
Sandaime Raikage
Trollkage

Low Kage;
KazeKage 
Hiruzen


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## Bonly (Nov 4, 2013)

Wolfstein said:


> All of these characters are arguably kage level, but where exactly do they stand as far as _kage level_ goes? Low, Mid or High Kage?
> 
> Characters to rank...
> Ei
> ...



High Kage:
Itachi
Kakashi
Onoki
Jiraiya
Mu
Tobi
The French Dude
Minato
Gai

Mid Kage:
Gaara
Tsunade
Mei
A

Low Kage:
Yondaime Kazekage 
Hiruzen


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## FlamingRain (Nov 4, 2013)

Quasi-stealing Rocky's format cuz it looks cooler.

_*"High Kage":*_

_Tobirama
[*]Itachi ~ Minato
[*]The Prodigal Three_

_*"Mid Kage":*_

_Ohnoki
[*]Ay
[*]Mū
[*]Second Mizukage
[*]The Masters_

_*"Low Kage":*_

_Gaara
[*]Mei
[*]Hiruzen in his old age
[*]Fourth Kazekage_


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## Rocky (Nov 4, 2013)

Tsunade High Kage? 

Onoki Mid Kage? 

Oh Tuuuuurinnnn


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## Kai (Nov 4, 2013)

Counting live characters. Not counting Edo Tensei or  8th gate. Not ranking Hiruzen. In character.

Top
Minato
Itachi/Tobirama

High
Onoki
Kakashi
Orochimaru (without Edo Tensei)
Ei
Jiraiya
Muu
2nd Mizukage

Mid
Tsunade
Gaara
Gai

Low
Mei
4th Kazekage


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## FlamingRain (Nov 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade High Kage?



Yes.



> Onoki Mid Kage?



I was going to put Ohnoki in the High Kage group, but decided I wanted it to be six and six. . .just because, really.

I don't really believe there's a sizable gap between the lower end of one tier and the upper end of the next anyway, though.


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## wooly Eullerex (Nov 4, 2013)

*fun thread~!!*

Ei_mid
Tsunade_hi
Onoki_hi
Gaara_mid
Mei_lo
Kakashi_lo
Gai_DBZ
Itachi_hi
Jiraiya_hi
Minato_*mid*, combat strength be damned 
Mu_hi
4th Kazekage_lo
2nd Mizukage_hi
Tobirama_  ...hi
_Prime Hiruzen__hi
Orochimaru_hi


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## Rocky (Nov 4, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes.




Tsunade looses to Onoki, Muu, Nindaime Mizukage, Kakashi, and she can loose to Ei depending on his knowledge. That's a good majority of the people in the tier "below" her that beat her. In the tier you placed her in, she get's _stomped_ by Itachi or Minato, looses to Tobirama, and falls to Sage Jiraiya eventually. Orochimaru is a toss up for me.

She should really be in Mei's tier bro.


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## Wolfstein (Nov 4, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> Ei_mid
> Tsunade_hi
> Onoki_hi
> Gaara_mid
> ...




Gaikage ftw.


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## RBL (Nov 4, 2013)

GAIKAGE


Kakashi
.
.
.
.
.
.
Fodders


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## wooly Eullerex (Nov 4, 2013)

*that sensei, he... he transcends ''shinobi''*

^^  nice jpg/sscreenshot
*Spoiler*: __


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## FlamingRain (Nov 4, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade looses to Onoki, Muu, Nindaime Mizukage, Kakashi, and she can loose to Ei depending on his knowledge.



The Tsuchikages beat her through match ups. I favor her against the latter three, though.



> In the tier you placed her in, she get's _stomped_ by Itachi or Minato, looses to Tobirama, and falls to Sage Jiraiya eventually. Orochimaru is a toss up for me.



Itachi has Jutsus that can circumvent her regeneration, but they're costly Jutsus and he could be forced to use them repeatedly by summonings. Minato is going to be exhausted by the time he manages to get her to actually stay dead, so I wouldn't label either of those "stomps".

Agreed on Jiraiya, but I believe she beats Orochimaru, and I'm probably going to always put her next to them.



But I'm sleepy and have to get up early tomorrow. . .so goodnight :sleepy.


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## RedChidori (Nov 4, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Minato/Tobirama/Itachi (Edo) would roflstomp any Kage. They are in a league of their own.
> 
> However with your list it goes.
> 
> ...



Agreed to the fullest extent.


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## Rocky (Nov 4, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The Tsuchikages beat her through match ups. I favor her against the latter three, though.




The Mizukage is a debatable match-up, but she has a 0% chance of defeating Kakashi. Kamui is anti-Tsunade.

Ei with knowledge speed blitzes to her flank in v2 and cleaves her head off with a lightning chop. He looses without knowledge though.



> Itachi has Jutsus that can circumvent her regeneration, but they're costly Jutsus and he could be forced to use them repeatedly by summonings. Minato is going to be exhausted by the time he manages to get her to actually stay dead, so I wouldn't label either of those "stomps".




Fair enough.




> But I'm sleepy and have to get up early tomorrow. . .so goodnight :sleepy.




I await your beautiful responses.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 4, 2013)

Ei - Mid Kage
Tsunade - High Kage
Onoki - Mid Kage
Gaara - Low Kage
Mei - Low Kage
Kakashi - High Kage
Gai - Mid Kage
Itachi - Above Kage level
Jiraiya - High Kage
Minato - Above Kage level
Mu - High Kage
4th Kazekage - Low Kage 
2nd Mizukage - Mid Kage 
Tobirama - High Kage 
Hiruzen - Low Kage
Orochimaru - High Kage​​


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## Sadgoob (Nov 4, 2013)

It's tricky to go with either hype/presence or potential in abilities.


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## Mercurial (Nov 4, 2013)

*Beyond Kage*

Minato / Tobirama
Kakashi / Gai
Itachi

*High Kage*

Mu
Onoki
Ei
Jiraiya / Orochimaru
2nd Mizukage

*Mid Kage*

Gaara

*Low Kage*

Hiruzen
Tsunade / Mei
4th Kazekage


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## Nikushimi (Nov 4, 2013)

The scale looks something like this:


Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
3rd Raikage/4th Raikage
Danzou
Muu/2nd Mizukage
Oonoki
Tsunade
3rd Kazekage
Gaara
4th Kazekage
Mei/Hiruzen

Blue=High
Green=Mid
Red=Low



So...


A: High
Tsunade: Mid
Oonoki: Mid
Gaara: Low
Mei: Low
Kakashi: Low
Gai: Mid
Itachi: High
Jiraiya: MId
Minato: High
Muu: Mid
4th Kazekage: Low
2nd Mizukage: Mid
Tobirama: High
Hiruzen: Low
Orochimaru: Mid


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## Sadgoob (Nov 4, 2013)

I'm not sure about the 3rd Raikage because we don't really know his demeanor, but I think A would be Mū's bitch. I don't even think A would defeat Mei. He's brash (dumb,) and often goes in with v1 first, which would definitely allow Mei to set up and then outsmart him.

Danzō is a complete monster given he had Hashirama's DNA making Kotoamatsukami available every hour or so. Izanagi plus those paralysis seals from a mere touch is also pretty broken. He also struck me as one of the most intelligent of all shown Kage.

The 3rd Kazekage is massively underrated given that he's essentially Gaara with a better medium who doesn't need to grind because he just summons a desert of gold dust, which was evidently enough to manhandle Shukaku. He's definitely no slouch.

Basically, most of the leaders are monstrously broken with the bottom of the litter being the linear fighters i.e. A, Tsunade, Mifune, etc. And lol Hiruzen is at the bottom. Poor old man. The next issue would then be sorting out presence and portrayal in the manga.

And on that note, I can't help but feel that Gai and Kakashi are a bit short. Despite having trumpcards that could certainly defeat many High Kage, I still wouldn't necessarily say that they're High Kage themselves. They just haven't been hyped up in that way for me.​


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## ueharakk (Nov 4, 2013)

If we are only restricted to those three ranks and thus three stratums them:

High:
Orochimaru
Minato
Tobirama
Itachi
Jiraiya

Mid:
Ei
Oonoki
Muu/2nd Mizukage
Kakashi
Gai

Low:
Tsunade
Gaara
Mei
4th Kazekage
Hiruzen


If it's by hype, then prime hiruzen should be at the high kage tier.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 4, 2013)

Muu and Mei aren't beating A before he blitzes them, provided they start the match at a reasonable conversation distance. I seriously doubt Mei would even be able to hurt A through his Raiton armor.

The 3rd's not really well-equipped to fight Muu, but could also run him down if the starting distance were small enough. He would just laugh off all of Mei's attacks and then murder her with his thumb, like she was fodder.

Kotoamatsukami's combat potential is hard to ascertain without seeing a good example, but since it's not actual mind control, I don't see much it could be used for other than peaceful resolution. Consequently, I wouldn't expect it to boost Danzou's overall power significantly above what he displayed against Sasuke; the Jutsu seems like it would be a lot more useful in team battles, where he can steal allies and actually use them.


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## crisler (Nov 4, 2013)

Ei - mid
Tsunade - low
Onoki - mid
Gaara - mid
Mei - low
Kakashi - low
Gai - low
Itachi - high
Jiraiya - mid
Minato - high
Mu - mid
4th Kazekage - mid
2nd Mizukage - mid
Tobirama  - high
Hiruzen - high
Orochimaru - mid


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## Rosencrantz (Nov 4, 2013)

Wolfstein said:


> All of these characters are arguably kage level, but where exactly do they stand as far as _kage level_ goes? Low, Mid or High Kage?
> 
> Characters to rank...
> Ei
> ...



High:
Tobirama
Orochimaru
Mu
Oonoki
A
Jiraiya
Minato
Itachi

Mid Kage:
Kakashi
Gai
Tsunade
Nidaime Mizukage
Gaara

Low Kage:
Mei
Hiruzen
Yondaime Kazekage

My ranking system is pretty simple. There are a few shinobi that I consider solid Low Kage and I simply match them up quickly in my head with the participants here. If they can win then I will consider them higher. For instance low Kage level shinobi are people like Base Sasuke, Post Wind Base Naruto, Base Itachi, etc. Every shinobi on the list can best them. However Hiruzen, Mei, and Yondaime Kazekage could lose to Naruto/Sasuke/Itachi quite a bit too so I would put them on the same level. There are shinobi they can put up a fight against like Gai, Kakashi, Gaara, and Tsunade but they would still likely lose more than not.

I then do the same for everyone at the mid Kage level. Base Killer Bee, Current Base Naruto, Base Jiraiya, etc. These guys would solidly take down Mei/Hiruzen further supporting the low Kage validity. They could potentially take down Gai, Gaara, Kakashi, Tsunade, Mizukage but the opponents could also beat them. They could put up fights against some of the others but once the big guns come out the obviously lose.

Now High Kage level is the easiest. Basically how do these people fair against SM Naruto, MS Sasuke, Danzou w/o Koto, etc. Some are obviously stronger i.e. Minato and Tobirama. But others like Itachi and Oonoki could go either way with them so they are on there. They edge out others like A and Jiraiya but not so much stronger that they go down to the mid Kage tier. Orochimaru is on a similar level to Jiraiya and Mu is on a similar level to Oonoki so I put them on the same level.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The Mizukage is a debatable match-up, but she has a 0% chance of defeating Kakashi. Kamui is anti-Tsunade.



Not any more-so than it is anti-everyone else.

The slug(s) may as well be anti-Kakashi- it is protective of Tsunade, too big to _Kamui_, and he can't even harm it with anything else (just imagine a combined transformation with all those divisions. . .).

Unlike what the techniques within Tsunade's skillset are to her, _Kamui_ is a last resort desperation move to Kakashi, and his ability to use it multiple times now doesn't erase his reluctance to use it. Not enough to use it quickly on Tsunade at least, given that he didn't figure it'd be a good idea to use when he was having trouble capitalizing on the five second interval of the guys who had killed Tsunade's contemporary and were rampaging throughout the village, despite the fact that he could _already_ use the Jutsu multiple times with astonishing accuracy alongside other techniques at that point.

IC Kakashi would much more likely think "Not even Tsunade's medical ninjutsu can heal destroyed organs , so I'll try to _Kage Bunshin_ feint and strike her with a _Raikiri_." or something along those lines and proceed to get surprise gripped and crushed or blindsided due to not being aware of her overwhelming survivability before he stops shying away from _Kamui_. Similar to Kakuzu's case, except he dies this time around by Tsunade's extraordinary strength.

Additionally, portrayal has also always favored Tsunade and Kakashi has yet to shake up the status quo from that perspective. The only way I see Kakashi winning is if he goes and does something completely out of character and opts for _Kamui_ very early on. But as there is no reason to believe Kakashi is going to suddenly opt for _Kamui_ early on while Tsunade can kill Kakashi with notably less drastic measures, I find myself siding with her most times out of ten.



> Ei with knowledge speed blitzes to her flank in v2 and cleaves her head off with a lightning chop. He looses without knowledge though.



I honestly doubt Ay even thinks a headshot will kill her (nobody else who has knowledge on it [in-verse] seems to I don't think it would either). He was only concerned about her stamina in the viz of the _Susano'o_ clone skirmish and outside of that there are other translations say "even if you cannot die" or "death aside" as he worries about her not preserving stamina.

That said, reacting to Madara's sudden appearance and striking him post-_Tensō no Jutsu_ is an excellent reaction feat for Tsunade (and Ay and Madara, who are both reflex beasts, but not Mū). If on top of that one considers the factors of Tsunade's immense amount of intelligence and experience (hailed as a prodigy, scored a maximal 5 out of 5 in intelligence in the databook; well over 1,000 official missions, won a war for Konoha), as well as the fact that she prioritizes reading into an enemy's plan of attack (a subtle, but still very important differentiation from conventional response) which affords her a greater window of time to act than pure reaction and is based every bit as much on intelligence as speed, then this is where I expect Tsunade to most likely trump Ay.

In a manga knowledge scenario I believe the Hokage would be intuitive and familiar enough with him to react to his sudden disappearance and predict the moment of his attack in order to take the trade even if he went V2, because she would no longer be reliant upon keeping up with his _Shunshin_. They'd both wreck, but Tsunade would regenerate, and then Ay would be more or less finished. It may as well be the Narutoverse version of Mach Punch vs. Revenge + Full Restore. If they happen to start at a sizable distance it's even better for Tsunade because she can pop the slug and wind up in the center of a horde, making it harder for Ay to even reach her at top speed.

He might think taking advantage of his superior Hachibi level stamina is the best way to go, but playing keep away doesn't do him any favors considering he can only deal damage up close.

Ay with knowledge would beat a Tsunade without it, though.


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## Rocky (Nov 5, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Not any more-so than it is anti-everyone else.
> 
> The slug(s) may as well be anti-Kakashi- it is protective of Tsunade, too big to _Kamui_, and he can't even harm it with anything else (just imagine a combined transformation with all those divisions. . .).
> 
> ...




Kamui is "anti-Tsunade" because the Hokage relies on her physical strength and regeneration to defeat her opponents. Kamui circumvents that regeneration, and she isn't fast enough to avoid the Sharingan's visual field. Also, Kakashi need not kill the slug to defeat Tsunade. If Tsunade wants to fight Kakashi, she'll have to come out of Katsuyu and attempt engage him up close. Kakashi's accuracy with the Mangekyō is impeccable; Tsunade merely needs to be visible to his legendary Dojutsu for the fight to end, should it come to that. 

It _will_ come to it though, as Kakashi is very fond of testing the waters with a Kage Bunshin to gather information. She will regenerate through the Raikiri of clone, and that will give Kakashi a reason to fall back on the mighty Authority of the Gods. The Byakugo is a visually intriguing Jutsu that Kakashi has no knowledge on anyway, so I highly doubt he would take the risk of using Raikiri himself.

The IC argument for Kamui has lost a ton of merit now regardless of Kakashi's motives. The reason he refrained from abusing the Jutsu is _precisely_ his stamina issue. Calming that Kakashi can use it more, but yet still won't, makes no sense. The Jutsu made him stumble after one shot even as late as the Summit Arc. Without that drawback, there is no reason he cannot start incorporating the Mangekyō into is standard fighting style. This is a man with top grade intellect and efficiency; he will use Kamui if the situation calls for it.

While we're on the topic of loosing merit, I'd like to call bull on the portrayal excuse. Kakashi has been tangoing with Version 2 Jinchuriki and top-tier Uchiha. I don't think him defeating Tsunade at this point is any sort of ridiculous claim. We saw _obvious_ improvement in Kakashi's Kamui use during the War Arc, and his physical stats & intelligence are as refined as ever.



> I honestly doubt Ay even thinks a headshot will kill her (nobody else who has knowledge on it [in-verse] seems to I don't think it would either). He was only concerned about her stamina in the viz of the _Susano'o_ clone skirmish and outside of that there are other translations say "even if you cannot die" or "death aside" as he worries about her not preserving stamina.
> 
> That said, reacting to Madara's sudden appearance and striking him post-_Tensō no Jutsu_ is an excellent reaction feat for Tsunade (and Ay and Madara, who are both reflex beasts, but not Mū). If on top of that one considers the factors of Tsunade's immense amount of intelligence and experience (hailed as a prodigy, scored a maximal 5 out of 5 in intelligence in the databook; well over 1,000 official missions, won a war for Konoha), as well as the fact that she prioritizes reading into an enemy's plan of attack (a subtle, but still very important differentiation from conventional response) which affords her a greater window of time to act than pure reaction and is based every bit as much on intelligence as speed, then this is where I expect Tsunade to most likely trump Ay.
> 
> ...




The Raikage may not assume a head shot is her Kyrptonite, but it's most certainly his best bet. Why not try? He knows that her torso is a no-go, so shooting for the neck may be his only hope. He has high power chops that can sever even his own limbs, so Tsunade neck will not hold up.

Tsunade predicting the Raikage's attack doesn't work because she lacks the body speed to physically move in response. How will she trade a blow with him if her head is rolling before she can lift her arm? Minato, KCM Naruto, and Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke were all reliant upon handseal-less Jutsu when faced with Ei's flicker. Tsunade is not throwing a punch in when Minato barley managed Hiraishin. 

No amount of familiarity is going to change that either. The man was an inch from connecting with a sprinting sensor with roof-tier speed, and Naruto was not in any kind of position to defend himself. He needed that flash Shunshin to dodge, and Tsunade doesn't have such luxuries. 

You can't just randomly claim Tsunade's background in anticipation skills will allow her to react to react to attacks she hasn't shown capable of. It's the "No Limits Fallacy." If I go with you here, what's stopping Tsunade from beating any frail speedster in any verse? If Tsunade was familiar with The Flash, could she predict his moment of attack and trade blows? Ei isn't the Flash, but you get my point. If you lack the body speed to move in response, reflexes are pointless. Considering Minato, Naruto, and Sasuke all lacked that body speed, I'm comfortable saying Tsunade does as well.


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## Turrin (Nov 5, 2013)

I'm not really fond of the Low-Mid-High qualifiers, but since that's what you want I'll give my thoughts OP. 

If we include Hashirama and Edo Minato, need to be in a tier of their own, as none of the other characters list here come even remotely close to their level. So than the next strongest characters would be Mid, but I don't really like calling them that, because honestly they are much stronger than a vast majority of Kages, so I don't think being middle of the road is the correct terminology but here you go. Have a similar problem with calling people low Kage. But okay enough of my whining about terminology, here's how i'd rank them on your scheme OP:

Ei - Low
Tsunade - Low
Onoki - Mid
Gaara - Low
Mei - Low
Kakashi - Low
Gai - Low
Itachi (sick) - Low...........Itachi (Edo) - Mid
Jiraiya - Low
Minato (Alive) - Mid ............. Minato (Edo) - High
Mu - Mid
4th Kazekage - Low
2nd Mizukage - Mid
Tobirama  - Mid
Hiruzen (feats) - Low .... Hiruzen (Hype) - ????
Orochimaru (Part I) - Low .... Orochimaru (Current) - Mid

Personally I think of all the guys rank - Low - as actually Mid though, guy as - mid - as actually high, and guys as - high - as extremely high,  but since you only gave 3 possible ranks, Hashirama and Edo Minato push everyone down a rank


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## eyeknockout (Nov 6, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Ei - Mid Kage
> Tsunade - High Kage
> Onoki - Mid Kage
> Gaara - Low Kage
> ...



close

*Ei - high Kage*
*Tsunade - mid Kage*
*Onoki - high Kage*
*Gaara - mid Kage*
Mei - Low Kage
Kakashi - High Kage
Gai - Mid Kage
Itachi - Above Kage level
Jiraiya - High Kage
Minato - Above Kage level
Mu - High Kage
4th Kazekage - Low Kage 
*2nd Mizukage - high Kage* 
*Tobirama - above Kage level *
Hiruzen - Low Kage
Orochimaru - High Kage


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## FlamingRain (Nov 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Kamui is "anti-Tsunade" because the Hokage relies on her physical strength and regeneration to defeat her opponents. Kamui circumvents that regeneration, and she isn't fast enough to avoid the Sharingan's visual field.



_Kamui_ circumvents a lot of things and the grand majority of the verse lacks the speed to avoid Kakashi's visual field tho. . .

I mean I just wouldn't single out Tsunade in particular there.



> Also, Kakashi need not kill the slug to defeat Tsunade. If Tsunade wants to fight Kakashi, she'll have to come out of Katsuyu and attempt engage him up close.



I'm not seeing why Tsunade has to leave her signature gigantic and acid-raining slugs behind to fight Kakashi.



> It _will_ come to it though, as Kakashi is very fond of testing the waters with a Kage Bunshin to gather information. She will regenerate through the Raikiri of clone, and that will give Kakashi a reason to fall back on the mighty Authority of the Gods. The Byakugo is a visually intriguing Jutsu that Kakashi has no knowledge on anyway, so I highly doubt he would take the risk of using Raikiri himself.



Kakashi didn't try to test the waters with Deva using _Kage Bunshin_ initially.

I don't even see a mere clone being able to outmaneuver and _Raikiri_ Tsunade, but _Kage Bunshin's_ purpose is to provide an opening as it was against Shoten Itachi, which is why he didn't feint Kakuzu once he saw one and realized that he was using a Doton, because he knew its weakness.

Kakashi is already familiar with Tsunade's prolific use of Medical Ninjutsu, and the supposed impossibilities of Medical Ninjutsus are common knowledge whether they be "visually intriguing" or not, while _Raikiri_ can exploit that very weakness. (Actually, I would expect Kakashi's habits to be well known to Tsunade as they are to Choza- so she might even opt for the less suspicious _Sōzō Saisei_ over _Byakugō no Jutsu_; she used _Sōzō Saisei_ with Katsuyu and after Mabui's lightspeed transmission instead of _Byakugō_ for some reason, after all.)

There is no need for him to waste time and energy gathering information here because he isn't advancing into a virtually no knowledge situation this time; a common knowledge weakness is common knowledge. He is most likely to use a _Kage Bunshin_ in order to create a distraction for him to deliver the "kill-shot" _Raikiri_ himself, which would inevitably backfire on him.



> The reason he refrained from abusing the Jutsu is _precisely_ his stamina issue. Calming that Kakashi can use it more, but yet still won't, makes no sense. The Jutsu made him stumble after one shot even as late as the Summit Arc. Without that drawback, there is no reason he cannot start incorporating the Mangekyō into is standard fighting style. This is a man with top grade intellect and efficiency; he will use Kamui if the situation calls for it.



Kakashi coughed and was on his knees panting after his first _Kamui_ in the war. I bet he would have stumbled had he tried running.

Kakashi was able to use _Kamui_ 3 times before reaching his limit as early as the Kazekage Rescue arc, quite some time later at least his accuracy with it and his execution of it had become astonishing by the Invasion of Pein (feats of warping a Kunai or the _Rasengan_ in airborne Naruto's outstretched arm don't really eclipse feats of warping a missile or _Shinra Tensei_ nail inches away from their destinations). In the war he fell flat on his face with a bleeding eye after squeezing out a fourth use. Singular uses of _Kage Bunshin_ still worry him about his Chakra reserves in this war just like they did in the invasion.

...So yeah, in my opinion any supposed stamina increase Kakashi has been granted is greatly overestimated, because the drawback is blatantly still there. If a boost is even there it isn't at all so substantial a boost that he would now incorporate it into his standard fighting style. The Mangekyō remains something that Kakashi only considers the situation to call for after all of his typical options have been exhausted - but by the time Kakashi realizes that here it will be too late.



> While we're on the topic of loosing merit, I'd like to call bull on the portrayal excuse. Kakashi has been tangoing with Version 2 Jinchuriki and top-tier Uchiha. I don't think him defeating Tsunade at this point is any sort of ridiculous claim.



I said portrayal _favored_ Tsunade, not that Kakashi defeating her was some sort of "_ridiculous_ claim". (It's just one I obviously don't agree with)

I'm going to turn right back around and call bull on your excuse to whine about the portrayal reasoning. I assure you those aren't achievements that were beyond Kakashi in the Pein arc. A man that can compete with members of the Bijū hunting Akatsuki should be expected to be able to deal with V2 Jinchūriki alongside his rival when said Jinchūriki don't even compare to something like KN4, something one Sannin danced with casually in a rejecting body and another dealt with while in base, by feats or by logical implication.

"Contending with top-tier Uchiha" is egregiously misleading, as it neglects the fact that Kakashi was assisted by two top-tier Jinchūriki and his rival. Tsunade would devastate an emotionally distraught Obito without _Kamui_, Gedō Mazō, or Jinchūriki in Taijutsu if that's what you meant instead.



> If you lack the body speed to move in response, reflexes are pointless. Considering Minato, Naruto, and Sasuke all lacked that body speed, I'm comfortable saying Tsunade does as well.



...None of them lacked that body speed tho.

Minato flicked up a Kunai to set up for a counter assault in spite of the surprise factor that won't be present here; Naruto changed the direction he was facing and _Shunshin'd_ behind Ay; Sasuke turned around looking for Ay (he simply didn't know where to look); Madara with only the Rinnegan (which doesn't provide precognition) active successfully brought up a guard against an Ay taking advantage of the provided distraction of Mei's attack. This same Madara failed to successfully block Tsunade's kick or punch with the EMS activated.

Somehow we can just randomly conclude that Raikage can speedblitz someone with Tsunade's reflexes before they can move in response simply because more reflexive people less informed than Tsunade and going off of pure reflex _*were able to* react and make bodily movements during the use of his full speed_? (KCM sensing only alerts Naruto as to where people are, not what they are trying to do and when; so it was more or less a non-factor when he was sitting there looking right at Ay).


----------



## Rocky (Nov 6, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> _Kamui_ circumvents a lot of things




Not really..



> I'm not seeing why Tsunade has to leave her signature gigantic and acid-raining slugs behind to fight Kakashi.




Tsunade has to get in Kakashi's face to deliver a blow with that strength of hers...



> There is no need for him to waste time and energy gathering information here because he isn't advancing into a virtually no knowledge situation this time; a common knowledge weakness is common knowledge. He is most likely to use a _Kage Bunshin_ in order to create a distraction for him to deliver the "kill-shot" _Raikiri_ himself, which would inevitably backfire on him.




I disagree. It's foolish to assume Kakashi will still charge in against Tsunade upon seeing her activate a highly advanced medical technique without using a clone to see what it does.




> ...So yeah, in my opinion any supposed stamina increase Kakashi has been granted is greatly overestimated, because the drawback is blatantly still there. If a boost is even there it isn't at all so substantial a boost that he would now incorporate it into his standard fighting style. The Mangekyō remains something that Kakashi only considers the situation to call for after all of his typical options have been exhausted - but by the time Kakashi realizes that here it will be too late.




There was an evident boost against Obito, as it took what, _five_ successive uses on top of multiple clones & Raiton techniques for Kakashi to exhaust?

There is really no reason for Kakashi to even get close...period.


Where does Tsunade excell? In mele range.
Does Kakashi know this? Yes.
Does Kakashi have a ranged technique capable of taking down Tsunade? Yes, Kamui.
Does he have the stamina to use it once, or even twice if a setback occurs? Yes.
Does he have the intellegince to take this route that I myself am  smart enough to come up with? Yes.

Kakashi would have to be a fool to even _go close_ to the women when Kamui can be used without zapping all of his Chakra away, especially when she's using a medical technique he has no knowledge on.



> when said Jinchūriki don't even compare to something like KN4, something one Sannin danced with casually in a rejecting body and another dealt with while in base.




Orochimaru couldn't damage Naruto, and Naruto decided not to move that entire fight, so I wouldn't call it "dancing." Apparently KN4 nearly killed Jiraiya, who had a sealing tag to directly suppress Naruto. I also don't think KN4 is superior to the Version 2 Jinchuriki, other than Bijuudama. Naruto simply isn't in control of his actions, while the Edo Jins are directly and efficiently controlled through the intelligent mind of Obito.

Rest of the point was fair.



> Minato flicked up a Kunai to set up for a counter assault in spite of the surprise factor that won't be present here; Naruto changed the direction he was facing and _Shunshin'd_ behind Ay; Sasuke turned around looking for Ay (he simply didn't know where to look); Madara with only the Rinnegan (which doesn't provide precognition) active successfully brought up a guard against an Ay taking advantage of the provided distraction of Mei's attack. This same Madara failed to successfully block Tsunade's kick or punch with the EMS activated..





Tsunade cannot do anything in that situation. She cannot move her arms up to guard faster than Ei  _mid-Shunshin_ can move a few inches and connect with her neck...especially considering all Minato could manage was a Kunai flick.


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 6, 2013)

?
Minato
Itachi
Tobirama

High Kage

Jiraiya / Orochimaru / Tsunade
Onoki / Muu / Ei
Kakashi 
Troll Kage


Mid Kage
4th Kaze Kage
Gaara
Might Guy

Low Kage
Mei
Hiruzen


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## Nikushimi (Nov 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Itachi (sick) - Low...........Itachi (Edo) - Mid
> Minato (Alive) - Mid



What the actual fuck?


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## Wolfstein (Nov 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> What the actual fuck?



It's not like it seems lol....
He was basically saying since he considers people like Hashirama high Kage, everyone goes down a rank. His Mid Kage is essentially your High Kage.


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## Pretty Good Satan (Nov 6, 2013)

Going purely by feats:

*TOP KAGE*
Onoki
Itachi
*HIGH KAGE*
Tobirama
Minato

*MID HIGH KAGE*
Kakashi
Gai
*MID KAGE*
Gaara
Jiraiya
Mu
2nd Mizukage
Orochimaru
*MID LOW KAGE*
4th Kazekage
A
*LOW KAGE*
Mei
Hiruzen
Tsunade


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## Nikushimi (Nov 6, 2013)

Wolfstein said:


> It's not like it seems lol....
> He was basically saying since he considers people like Hashirama high Kage, everyone goes down a rank. His Mid Kage is essentially your High Kage.



Hashirama is a single outlier; he doesn't get to dominate an entire rank all to himself. The point of "low, mid, high" is to separate the Kage into equally-distributed tiers, not judge all of them relative to a single individual.

Hashirama is a high Kage-level. Minato and Itachi (sick or Edo) are both also high Kage-level.


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## Alita (Nov 6, 2013)

Ei- mid kage
Tsunade-mid kage
Onoki- high kage
Gaara- depending on the location he can be anywhere from low to high kage
Mei-low kage
Kakashi-high kage
Gai-high kage
Itachi-mid kage
Jiraiya-mid kage
Minato-depending on what version of him this is he can be anywhere from low kage level to beyond kage level.
Mu-high kage
4th Kazekage-low kage at best(Though kind of the same as gaara.)
2nd Mizukage- mid kage
Tobirama -high kage
Hiruzen- anywhere from low to mid kage(Likely mid)
Orochimaru- low kage


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## crisler (Nov 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Hashirama is a single outlier; he doesn't get to dominate an entire rank all to himself. The point of "low, mid, high" is to separate the Kage into equally-distributed tiers, not judge all of them relative to a single individual.
> 
> Hashirama is a high Kage-level. Minato and Itachi (sick or Edo) are both also high Kage-level.



Can't say he's wrong though. Hashi and Madara are definitely high tier along with  minato itachi hiruzen tobirama etc,if we separate kages into three categories, but...the gods individually can probably fight 2~3 of their tier pairs and pull a stalemate. the gap is too big.


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## Ersa (Nov 7, 2013)

crisler said:


> Can't say he's wrong though. Hashi and Madara are definitely high tier along with  minato itachi hiruzen tobirama etc,if we separate kages into three categories, but...the gods individually can probably fight 2~3 of their tier pairs and pull a stalemate. the gap is too big.


Itachi (sick) being on the same level as Mei and 4th Kazekage?



You shouldn't be able to win against anyone on your tier low difficulty.


----------



## FlamingRain (Nov 7, 2013)

Sorry I've been responding so slowly the past couple days Rocky; I was pretty busy.



Rocky said:


> Not really..



Yes really.



> Tsunade has to get in Kakashi's face to deliver a blow with that strength of hers...



Or let the slug(s) acidify him. It'd take a while but it's an option.



> It's foolish to assume Kakashi will still charge in against Tsunade upon seeing her activate a highly advanced medical technique without using a clone to see what it does.



No it isn't. Impossibilities are impossibilities; you don't assume that something does the impossible just because it's supposedly highly advanced. He also isn't going to assume Tsunade will grit her teeth and fight through exploded organs.

A mere clone isn't likely to alert Kakashi to the fact that Tsunade can regrow entire organs- it will at best manage to electrocute her when she pops it (something that does not even outright destroy organs), at which point Kakashi will attempt to end her in that opening as he tried with Kakuzu, Asura, and Deva, and subsequently get crushed.



> There was an evident boost against Obito, as it took what, _five_ successive uses on top of multiple clones & Raiton techniques for Kakashi to exhaust?



Evident is not significant, and those uses could hardly be called successive. Kakashi used a single clone (which caused worry about his Chakra levels though there was no other way) along with those Raiton techniques, and it has always taken more than one _Kamui_ to completely exhaust Kakashi. But keeping in mind that his old limit was 3, this is what happened at _only 4_.

Nothing is indicative of a significant enough boost for _Kamui_ to suddenly slide into Kakashi's standard method of combat. Kakashi is _still_ going to be weakened for a time after the use of _Kamui_, and he has no allies here to pre-occupy his opponent for him or look after his body until he shakes it off in case it backfires. _That_ is why he has always been, and still would be, reluctant to utilize the Jutsu.

The _*only*_ guy Kakashi has tried to _Kamui_ very quickly is the same guy that he watched phase through everything his squad threw at him, and only after telling an ally to watch his body. Tsunade is not similar to that, at all, and no ally is present.



> There is really no reason for Kakashi to even get close...period.



And Kakashi similarly really had no reason to get close to Kakuzu, Asura, or Deva, period. Kakashi should know she excels in summoning Jutsu, too, and on that note which is Tsunade more infamous for: her physical strength or her slugs? Oh yeah her slugs, hence the Slug Princess moniker.


Did Asura and Deva have Kakashi outgunned up front? Yes.
Did Kakashi know this? Yes.
Was Kakashi capable of using _Kamui_ to take them down? Yes.
Did he have the stamina to use it more than once? Yes; he has for a while.
Would _Kamui_ have been great for that interval? Yes.
Did that stop Kakashi from trying to get close even when Choza said they couldn't? No.
Would he take this route before meeting with drastic force? I'm seeing a trend that says *no*.



> Orochimaru couldn't damage Naruto, and Naruto decided not to move that entire fight, so I wouldn't call it "dancing." Apparently KN4 nearly killed Jiraiya, who had a sealing tag to directly suppress Naruto. I also don't think KN4 is superior to the Version 2 Jinchuriki, other than Bijuudama. Naruto simply isn't in control of his actions, while the Edo Jins are directly and efficiently controlled through the intelligent mind of Obito.



The Masters couldn't damage their respective shrouded opponents either (unless you count severing the extended Chakra arms, which Orochimaru never tried), and sans the initial gap closing the reincarnated Jinchūriki didn't move either (Orochimaru conversely closed that gap for KN4). KN4 couldn't manage to kill Orochimaru, and as soon as Orochimaru got tired of playing he promptly ended the skirmish by sending KN4 flying away from the battlefield. In my book that counts as "dancing".

It isn't surprising that a base Jiraiya who couldn't seriously injure/kill his student when he unexpectedly transformed into a monster out of nowhere would nearly be killed. Keep in mind that the tag has to be applied manually and close-combat isn't Jiraiya's preferred method of fighting.

And I think you mean other than _Bijūdama_ and physicality in general, because KN4 is by showings far above any of the others, and such a great difference is completely consistent the absolutely tremendous disparity in raw power between Kurama and any other Jinchūriki in their respective absolute highest forms.

Kurama takes control of Naruto's actions, I think, but even if he doesn't none of the other Jinchūriki actually pulled anything particularly intelligent against their opponents. Not anymore intelligent than what KN4 was doing at least.


Madara's limbs were fast enough to guard in that situation, Tsunade's limbs had to move with at least comparable swiftness in order to re-angle her strike in response to Madara's attempted guard like she did. Expectant Tsunade not relying purely on raw reflex just needs to throw a strike unlike unsuspecting Minato who had just met Ay for the very first time and could have gained nothing from a mutual blow were he to have aimed for it. Her counter could even already be in motion where Minato's was not.

And I'm pretty sure that Ay was at the end of his _Shunshin_ there considering that he didn't really go further than that point. "Mid-_Shunshin_" I'd think would have been similar to what happened with Jugo, or Obito, where he went flying into a wall despite having noticed that his punch did not actually connect in the second case.

If Ay _was_ in "mid-_Shunshin_ he'd have still been in it when Minato struck back, which throws the notion that all Minato could do was flick a Kunai out of the window, because he could additionally perform an arm-thrust in the air above Ay before he got out of reach.


----------



## lolerslolol (Nov 7, 2013)

Wolfstein said:


> All of these characters are arguably kage level, but where exactly do they stand as far as _kage level_ goes? Low, Mid or High Kage?
> 
> Characters to rank...
> Ei
> ...



A sickly Itachi isn't Kage level.  He is only high jounin.  If we are talking about edo itachi, then that is different, but being edo is a huge power boost as you are unkillable, and you have no chakra/stamina limitations.  Edo is hacks, so how can you even be judged at that point?  

If I were to guess, then Edo Itachi is about mid Kage, and sick Itachi is below low Kage.  Idk why people overestimate sick Itachi so much when he was only on par, maybe lower than Hebi Sasuke.


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## RBL (Nov 7, 2013)

sick itachi is still being stronger than orochimaru part 1 , who was kage level already.

so yeah, sick itachi is kage level


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## Bonly (Nov 7, 2013)

lolerslolol said:


> How is edo Itachi and Part 1 Oro related in any way?
> 
> *Sick Itachi is High jounin, sorry, but that is a fact.*  Unless you want to argue that Hebi sasuke was at Kage level, which is a stretch in itself.
> 
> ...



Oh look johnsuwey is back


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## Bansai (Nov 7, 2013)

A - Low-High
Tsunade - High
Onoki - High
Gaara - Low
Mei - Low
Kakashi - Low-High
Gai - High-Low-High
Itachi - High
Jiraiya - High
Minato - High
Mu- High
4th Kazekage - Low
2nd Mizukage - High
Tobirama - High
Hiruzen - High
Orochimaru - High


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 7, 2013)

Wolfstein said:


> All of these characters are arguably kage level, but where exactly do they stand as far as _kage level_ goes? Low, Mid or High Kage?
> 
> Characters to rank...
> Ei
> ...




High Kage

Minato
Orochimaru(Current)
Hiruzen(Prime)
Tobirama 

Mid

Tsunade
Onoki
Jiriyia


Low

Kakashi
Mei
Ei
Gaara
2nd Mizukage 
4th Kazekage 
Gai


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Yes really.




Kamui is a specific counter to Tsunade because she cannot heal from dimensional transportation. 




> Or let the slug(s) acidify him. It'd take a while but it's an option.




lol @ Katusyu soloing Kakashi.




> No it isn't. Impossibilities are impossibilities; you don't assume that something does the impossible just because it's supposedly highly advanced. He also isn't going to assume Tsunade will grit her teeth and fight through exploded organs.
> 
> A mere clone isn't likely to alert Kakashi to the fact that Tsunade can regrow entire organs- it will at best manage to electrocute her when she pops it (something that does not even outright destroy organs), at which point Kakashi will attempt to end her in that opening as he tried with Kakuzu, Asura, and Deva, and subsequently get crushed.




What? How is regenerating organs any more "impossible" than breathing fire, or flying? It isn't impossible, it simply requires advanced medical Ninutsu. My point is that Kakashi is a very cautious Shinobi. He _knows_ he cannot afford be hit by Tsunade, so he isn't going to charge in without knowing what Byakugo does...

Even if I granted you that he idiotically takes the fight into her preferred range of combat, Kakashi has a tendency to aim for the skull, which is bad news bears for Tsunade.



> And Kakashi similarly really had no reason to get close to Kakuzu, Asura, or Deva, period. Kakashi should know she excels in summoning Jutsu, too, and on that note which is Tsunade more infamous for: her physical strength or her slugs? Oh yeah her slugs, hence the Slug Princess moniker.




It makes absolutely no sense to attempt to outgun Kakuzu or Pain from a distance, as they're much more dangerous from afar. Tendo cannot kill him in one punch, Kakuzu cannot kill him in one punch, and Asura cannot kill him in one punch. 

Kakashi will fight Tsunade using his ranged options, and if all else should fail Kamui ends the match. "The Copy Ninja" has an enormous move-pool that can be used to fight Tsunade without going into her effective range. Tsunade doesn't attempt much dodging in Byakugo mode, so Kakashi will figure out the mechanics of the Jutsu very quickly, clones or not. Kamui is inevitable once he realizes he can't hurt her.

By the way, Tsunade is famous for both her strength and her slugs. However, in all of her fights, her strength has been the opponent's main concern. Not her slug.




> Madara's limbs were fast enough to guard in that situation, Tsunade's limbs had to move with at least comparable swiftness in order to re-angle her strike in response to Madara's attempted guard like she did.




That wasn't max-power Ei. You tell by looking at his hair..

v2 Ei is a whole different ball game, and you know that.



> Expectant Tsunade not relying purely on raw reflex just needs to throw a strike unlike unsuspecting Minato who had just met Ay for the very first time and could have gained nothing from a mutual blow were he to have aimed for it. Her counter could even already be in motion where Minato's was not.
> 
> And I'm pretty sure that Ay was at the end of his _Shunshin_ there considering that he didn't really go further than that point. "Mid-_Shunshin_" I'd think would have been similar to what happened with Jugo, or Obito, where he went flying into a wall despite having noticed that his punch did not actually connect in the second case.
> 
> If Ay _was_ in "mid-_Shunshin_ he'd have still been in it when Minato struck back, which throws the notion that all Minato could do was flick a Kunai out of the window, because he could additionally perform an arm-thrust in the air above Ay before he got out of reach.




You can swap Minato for Naruto, and the same applies. Ei was inches away from blowing Naruto's head off, and Naruto was expecting the assault. I'm sorry, but Tsunade's arms are not faster than Ei's flicker, and_ by the time she realizes he's moved_, he'll be inches from her face.


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## RBL (Nov 7, 2013)

lolerslolol said:


> How is edo Itachi and Part 1 Oro related in any way?
> 
> Sick Itachi is High jounin, sorry, but that is a fact.  Unless you want to argue that Hebi sasuke was at Kage level, which is a stretch in itself.
> 
> ...



i mean sick itachi, sorry

and obito told sasuke, that sick itachi was not fighting at his 100%, had itachi wanted, he could have killed sasuke with ease.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Kamui is a specific counter to Tsunade because she cannot heal from dimensional transportation.



So she can't tank it- neither can Orochimaru, the Third Raikage, Kimimaro, Hidan, etc.

But I'm just being picky, these labeling specifics doesn't really matter here.



> lol @ Katusyu soloing Kakashi.



This is not a refutation.

I can do that, too. Lol @ Kakashi soloing Katsuyu.



> What? How is regenerating organs any more "impossible" than breathing fire, or flying? It isn't impossible, it simply requires advanced medical Ninutsu.



The regrowth of organs has been established as an impossibility within the Narutoverse itself, meaning that _even by Narutoverse standards_, which include fire breathing and flight, it is considered impossible. That is how.

It is an innate limitation, just like Doton is inherently more susceptible to Raiton than anything else. As with the Five Great Changes in Nature, it is a limitation which _Raikiri_ can overcome.



> Kakashi has a tendency to aim for the skull



He'll aim for it on occasion but he usually doesn't. It's hardly a tendency.



> It makes absolutely no sense to attempt to outgun Kakuzu or Pain from a distance, as they're much more dangerous from afar.



Kakashi didn't see Kakuzu use any Jutsu outside of _Doton: Domu_ until well after that point, so that excuse doesn't fly. How is Kakuzu more dangerous from afar anyways? All of his ranged Jutsu can be used at point-blank, so he'd be even more dangerous up-close where he has the added advantage of _Jiongu_, which is why Kakashi was only ever overwhelmed once Kakuzu closed the distance.

_Shinra Tensei_ was only being used when people got uncomfortably close, so Deva was actually more dangerous in close-proximity where you don't see anything being rejected in advance. He never used a particularly large variation of _ST_ for Kakashi to see as to conclude that distance was more dangerous. From Kakashi's perspective, long-range would have been much safer than getting smacked by _ST_ and trying to get close again while hoping that they could do something with the interval.



> "The Copy Ninja" has an enormous move-pool that can be used to fight Tsunade without going into her effective range.



Two Suitons and two Raitons hardly constitute an "enormous" move-pool outside of Tsunade's effective range. I think that speedy Kakashi fighting from range could provoke Katsuyu's summoning, too.



> Tsunade doesn't attempt much dodging in Byakugo mode



Since when? Regneration simply serves to provide room for error, it doesn't make Tsunade forget how to dodge.

Ay said Tsunade was _beginning_ to get sloppy when he noted her _Susano'o_ sword impalements- implying that she had been more careful with her clones earlier and that it was a new development upon her decision to stop preserving stamina and go full-throtle with knocking her clones dizzy.



> By the way, Tsunade is famous for both her strength and her slugs. However, in all of her fights, her strength has been the opponent's main concern. Not her slug.



Seemingly not as famous for it as she is for Katsuyu tho. Even ninja well aware of Tsunade's slug and elixir reputation such as Kabuto were unaware of her titanic physical strength. So Kakashi should believe her capable at more than melee range.

She has been in all of _two_ fights: In the first fight she was initially hemophobic, meaning she couldn't draw the blood required to summon. However, she immediately opted for Katsuyu as soon as she overcame her phobia and went on the offensive. In the second fight, Katsuyu would have been a waste of Chakra as Tsunade could heal the Kage on her own, the slug isn't capable of breaching a defense as potent as _Susano'o_ + _Preta_ and it really doesn't provide defense against Mokuton forestation.



> That wasn't max-power Ei.



_This_ looks like _V2_ to me, and I think it's implied by his complaints of Madara being able to guard in spite of his speed and needing a way build up sufficient speed to crush Madara's guard, leading to Raikage and Ohnoki's lightening _tactic_.



> You can swap Minato for Naruto, and the same applies. Ei was inches away from blowing Naruto's head off, and Naruto was expecting the assault.



Naruto may have been expecting it but he was never aiming for a counter. He changed directions and _Shunshin'd_ behind Ay, though, and I'm fairly certain most people can raise an arm faster than they can completely reposition themselves at another angle.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 7, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> So she can't tank it- neither can Orochimaru, the Third Raikage, Kimimaro, Hidan, etc.
> 
> But I'm just being picky, these labeling specifics doesn't really matter here.




Kamui is anti-them too; it's anti-tank.




> This is not a refutation.
> 
> I can do that, too. Lol @ Kakashi soloing Katsuyu.




I'm not bothering the nonsensical comment with an actual rebuttal. You're a good poster, you know better. Who wins, Kakashi or Katsuyu? Stand in front of a mirror and repeat the question until the obvious answer comes to you...

Not quite as bad as Matto's "Katsuyu > Itachi," but close.



> The regrowth of organs has been established as an impossibility within the Narutoverse itself, meaning that _even by Narutoverse standards_, which include fire breathing and flight, it is considered impossible. That is how.




Just like awakening the Rinnegan is impossible...right? I don't know who made the "regrowth of organs is impossible" statement, but unless it was Kishimoto, that specific character doesn't speak for the verse. What is and what is not possible literally depends on what a character has fought when dealing with a magical Manga as such. I'd bet you 5 bucks that Asuma through talking as a head was impossible before he met Hidan. Sasuke probably didn't think Naruto's lung would rapidly grown back either during their VotE bout. The examples are everywhere...

Regrowing an organ is impossible with standard medical Ninjutsu, but the Byakugo is obviously not that. Kakashi isn't going to be very fond of taking on a Taijutsu master with insta-kill strength up close in the first place. Now, a women renowned for her _unparalleled medical ability _has activated some unknown super medical Ninjustu, and Kakashi is like "herpa derp no way she can survive my Raikiri GG!!! This Jutsu has never failed before!!! Whatever technique this legendary medical Hookage just activated, it will fail before my mighty lighting blade, because I'm absolutely sure striking an organ ends in immediate death 100%!!!"...????

_REALLY?_ 

I'm not saying Kakashi will deduce what Bykaugo does right away, but god dammit, don't underestimate his intelligence. Kakashi is smarter than Shikamaru, who is known for fighting 200 steps in front of his opponent IIRC. You have wonder that upon seeing Tsunade activate Byakugo, Kakashi may stop and think "hmm, Tsunade is practically famous for her Medical skills. I don't know what this new technique is, but I don't have complete faith that my Raikiri will be enough at this point. I can't even afford to be _grazed_ here, so maybe I should stay back and figure out exactly why what this Jutsu is, and why she's pulled it out against me." That is what I would do, and let me tell you, I am a toddler in intelligence when compared to Kakashi, especially in battle tactics.





> He'll aim for it on occasion but he usually doesn't. It's hardly a tendency.




My fault, I used the wrong choice of words. Kakashi has shown to aim for it before, and has no problem doing so. It's the most effective area for him to aim versus Tsunade, as her large chest could diminish Raikiri's effectiveness. 




> Kakashi didn't see Kakuzu use any Jutsu outside of _Doton: Domu_ until well after that point, so that excuse doesn't fly. How is Kakuzu more dangerous from afar anyways? All of his ranged Jutsu can be used at point-blank, so he'd be even more dangerous up-close where he has the added advantage of _Jiongu_, which is why Kakashi was only ever overwhelmed once Kakuzu closed the distance.
> 
> _Shinra Tensei_ was only being used when people got uncomfortably close, so Deva was actually more dangerous in close-proximity where you don't see anything being rejected in advance. He never used a particularly large variation of _ST_ for Kakashi to see as to conclude that distance was more dangerous. From Kakashi's perspective, long-range would have been much safer than getting smacked by _ST_ and trying to get close again while hoping that they could do something with the interval.




Why is Kakuzu more effective at range? Well my boy, look at Jiraiya. Look at Onoki. Characters like them tend to battle at range despite having powerful close-range techniques (much like Kakuzu's Jiongu). Also, it isn't like Onoki cannot fire his Jinton point blank, yet he likes to play the range game. Do you know why that is?

Instead of assuming Kakashi is a doofus, attempt to understand why Kakashi opted for close quarters. They had no idea what the time limit of Tendo's interval was. If they attack from a distance, attacks take longer to reach Tendo, and therefore allow his ST to recharge. That was kind of what was happening ....Every time they threw a projectile, it bounced away and they were floored. So, logically, Kakashi came up with a plan that allowed him to initiate a _point-blank _attack on Tendo after he had _just used_ Shinra Tensei, all but guaranteeing Raikiri would land. Asura was just an unexpected variable. 



> Two Suitons and two Raitons hardly constitute an "enormous" move-pool outside of Tsunade's effective range. I think that speedy Kakashi fighting from range could provoke Katsuyu's summoning, too.




I brought up Kakashi's moniker there for a reason. He's copied a bunch of techniques. Now, I don't think he'll be spamming all sorts of new moves and magically defeat Tsunade that way. However, he should have a big enough Jutsu arsenal to briefly pressure her from a distance. It won't take him long to realize he isn't getting anywhere and opt for Kamui. She isn't going to psychically run him down and punch him in half when he has the ability to remove her with a blink. She isn't _that _fast.



> Since when? Regneration simply serves to provide room for error, it doesn't make Tsunade forget how to dodge.
> 
> Ay said Tsunade was _beginning_ to get sloppy when he noted her _Susano'o_ sword impalements- implying that she had been more careful with her clones earlier and that it was a new development upon her decision to stop preserving stamina and go full-throtle with knocking her clones dizzy.




I was making an observation based on her patterns in the Manga and jumping to a conclusion, similar to what you are doing with Kakashi. I think we're both in the wrong, as characters will act differently to different situations against different opponents.

That said, I still think Tsunade would try to run through a Jutsu in order to catch Kakashi off guard (she's done this before), but Kakashi's caution and roof-tier tactical intelligence lead me to believe Tsunade would be surprising and subsequently striking a shadow clone. Then he gains his necessary knowledge. 



> Seemingly not as famous for it as she is for Katsuyu tho. Even ninja well aware of Tsunade's slug and elixir reputation such as Kabuto were unaware of her titanic physical strength. So Kakashi should believe her capable at more than melee range.
> 
> She has been in all of _two_ fights: In the first fight she was initially hemophobic, meaning she couldn't draw the blood required to summon. However, she immediately opted for Katsuyu as soon as she overcame her phobia and went on the offensive. In the second fight, Katsuyu would have been a waste of Chakra as Tsunade could heal the Kage on her own, the slug isn't capable of breaching a defense as potent as _Susano'o_ + _Preta_ and it really doesn't provide defense against Mokuton forestation.




What Tsunade is most famous for is kind of irrelevant. Kakashi knows of her medical mastery, Godzilla strength, and he damn slugs. I never made the argument she wouldn't opt for Katsuyu; she would if she felt the need to. I certainly don't think the slug is powerful enough to take Kakashi down though. With Tsunade's assistance, it's a possibility, but if Kakashi starts to feel overwhelmed by their tag-team, welp...there's Kamui just chillin' there waiting to be used. 




> _This_ looks like _V2_ to me, and I think it's implied by his complaints of Madara being able to guard in spite of his speed and needing a way build up sufficient speed to crush Madara's guard, leading to Raikage and Ohnoki's lightening _tactic_.




I agree that it would've made sense to use v2 there, but we can't really argue with the scans. Looking at the panel where the Raikage struck Madara, he was clearly in v1...

I mean, think about it. Should Madara really be able to manage a physical guard against v2 when Minato himself wouldn't have been able to?




> Naruto may have been expecting it but he was never aiming for a counter. He changed directions and _Shunshin'd_ behind Ay, though, and I'm fairly certain most people can raise an arm faster than they can completely reposition themselves at another angle.




You're missing the point....

Naruto was literally sprinting in circles, and boom; Raikage inches away. Naruto may have had the body speed and reflexes for a last minute repositioning (that I guess you're assuming is off panel?), but Tsunade hasn't demonstrated that man. We know how quick and agile Naruto is...

Even if we go back to Minato, you can't just sit here and claim Minato was relying purely on reflex. He was _expecting_ a "pretty fast" attack, and had set up premature Hiraishin markers. Still, Minato hadn't even realized _that the Raikage moved_ until the last second where that fist was in his face. You can tell by his awkward body position (almost petrified), and the fact that Minato's impulsive reflexes didn't kick in (like how you would impulsively block if I ran at you and threw a punch). Luckily, Minato is quick enough to perform a flick and activate Hiraishin, but that's Minato's abilities, not Tsunade's. 

This is very similar to how someone would fail to realize a gun had fired until they'd already been shot. By the time Tsunde's eyes see Ei begin his Shunshin and her brain formulates the thought "oh he's not there anymore," Ei's going to be a few inches away, leaving no time to raise a guard.


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## Etherborn (Nov 7, 2013)

High Kage level:
Hashirama 
Minato 
Tobirama 

Mid Kage level:
Third Raikage
Ohnoki
4th Raikage

Low Kage level:
Tsunade
Gaara
Mei
Hiruzen

I'm too lazy to rank all of them.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 8, 2013)

This will probably be my last reply because I feel like we're just going to continue in circles endlessly.



Rocky said:


> it's anti-tank.



Okay then, I guess...



> I'm not bothering with an actual rebuttal.
> 
> Not quite as bad as Matto's "Katsuyu > Itachi," but close.



Katsuyu can't beat Itachi simply because she doesn't possess the abilities necessary to defeat him.

Kakashi cannot harm Katsuyu, and Kakashi cannot outlast Katsuyu because she has access to Tsunade's tremendous reserves. Kakashi will tire and Katsuyu will body-slam or rain acid on him. She wins.

We don't get to say Katsuyu loses just because she isn't cool enough. Kakashi is a recognized shinobi, Katsuyu is a legendary boss summon and one of the trump-cards of a monolithic living legend; there is nothing wrong with Kakashi losing to one of the trump cards of a such a powerful adversary, and Katsuyu's possession of an independent mind (or independent mind_s_) does not change that.



> I don't know who made the "regrowth of organs is impossible" statement, but unless it was Kishimoto, that specific character doesn't speak for the verse.



And now I know that you didn't open that link in my first response about this, because in one of those times it was stated, it _was_ Kishimoto.

_*Difficulty: Medical Jutsus and their possibilities and limits.

The greater the wound, the greater the ability needed. Also, its effects are not unlimited and reviving the dead is impossible.

Wounds and their healing difficulties
Scratches and stab wounds: difficulty 1
Broken bones, muscle and severed tendons: difficulty 2
Great damage to the body: difficulty 3
Death: impossibility

Regrowing a damaged organ is also an impossibility.​*_
This was not from the mouth of any specific character.

Being established as an impossibility even for Tsunade throws her reputation out of the window. The other Kage were also aware of her reputation and all believed her to have been finished in spite of the visually intriguing Jutsu. 

I have no idea what you're trying to prove with the Rinnegan comparison, because Kakashi wouldn't make an additional lesson plan just in case someone activated the Rinnegan either. 



> What is and what is not possible literally depends on what a character has fought when dealing with a magical Manga as such.



Yes, and Kakashi has not dealt with a medical Ninjutsu that does the supposedly impossible by Narutoverse standards. He has no reason to believe Tsunade will survive _Raikiri_ and regrow the organs it demolishes.

Kakashi didn't assume Kakuzu's Doton would do the impossible just because it was being used by a powerful S-Ranked Akatsuki member. It actually didn't, he just had 5 hearts, and Tsunade doesn't have that advantage (in Kakashi's eyes).

He is not going to benefit of the doubt Tsunade's ability to suddenly do what has previously been impossible for even herself. Medical Ninjutsu's weakness will come to him just like Doton's weakness did. If he thinks anything of it, it will only be that the very strong-willed Hokage has enough faith in her abilities to avoid so lethal a strike as to be overwhelmed, but his wariness will all but disappear once he finds an opening (likely through a _Raiton Kage Bunshin_) to capitalize on the established limits of medical Ninjutsus, Tsunade's included.

Then he dies.



> her large chest could diminish Raikiri's effectiveness.



Her chest isn't diminishing anything. _Chakra no Mesu_ doesn't even compare to _Raikiri_, which lets Kakashi run his hand through people's chests and out of their backs. Tsunade's breasts are not so big as to inhibit something like that from reaching and exploding her heart.

Though picturing those beautiful breasteses being impaled is making me tear up. 



> Look at Jiraiya. Look at Onoki.



Those are non-comparable examples, brah.

Brittle and short-limbed old man Ohnoki does not compare to extremely sturdy Kakuzu with tentacles in close-quarters, and I'll begrudgingly admit that neither does Jiraiya. Neither of those two can access all of their Jutsu in close-quarters, but Kakuzu can. Kakuzu is very effective at all ranges because all of his Jutsus can be used at all ranges. Would you rather fight a man from a distance where you have a lot more time to evade his incoming projectiles, or would you rather close in on a tank with copious amounts of threads that can fire these Jutsu at point blank after tangling you up in a hopeless position?

Think about it.



> If they attack from a distance, attacks take longer to reach Tendo, and therefore allow his ST to recharge. That was kind of what was happening



........

_Kamui_ isn't a traditional ranged Jutsu in the sense that it _appears on its target_;  Kakashi's distance won't slow it down, and it is faster than anything else in his arsenal. It could have been timed with Choji and Choza's assault at a much safer position than what he needed to enter in order to execute _Raikiri_, and yet it wasn't brought out.

The Asura variable would have been irrelevant had this happened, and as cautious as you're making Kakashi out to be I have to wonder where his "Just in case another path comes in from somewhere" plan was, since there were four more around the village that could have appeared at any given time. To that end, the fact that it was the one right next to him shouldn't have mattered.



> I brought up Kakashi's moniker there for a reason. He's copied a bunch of techniques.



They could all easily be fodder Jutsus that Kakashi wouldn't believe to pressure a high tier in the first place and thus wouldn't conclude from their failure that _Kamui_ was required. Heck, given Kakashi's propensity to fight at relatively close-range they could even all be close-combat Jutsus. It shouldn't take long for Tsunade to get annoyed and opt for Katsuyu either.

Maybe if we had even the slightest implication or specification of what these Jutsu were, I could just maybe get on board with that. But we don't have that.

I said absolutely nothing about running him down and punching him out of existence that way, though; you're attacking a massive straw-man right there.



> I was making an observation based on her patterns in the Manga and jumping to a conclusion, similar to what you are doing with Kakashi.



It isn't similar to what I'm doing, though.

For both characters I am trying to make observations that consider everything contributing to those patterns, including the facts that Tsunade with regeneration active got hit by a sneak-attack that she had no way of seeing through, and that Ay's words imply that Tsunade was still initially more careful even after activating regeneration. It implies that Tsunade only tries running through Jutsus after a more evasive approach stops working for a while.

I also think Tsunade will strike a shadow clone. However, I don't think she'll be injured beyond the scope of standard healing by a clone and I still think that the purpose of this clone will be to provide an opening for Kakashi to capitalize on as it was for Itachi and as Team 10 was for Kakuzu. I think that he will most likely capitalize with a _Raikiri_ attempt when he perceives an opening as he would have attempted with Itachi had Naruto not been there, as he attempted with Kakuzu, as he attempted with Asura, and as he attempted with Deva, before he resorts to _Kamui_.

His wariness of her physical prowess will all but disappear once he perceives that moment of weakness, which is further assisted by Tsunade's propensity to play possum, and that is why I think Tsunade is most likely to win.



> I agree that it would've made sense to use v2 there, but we can't really argue with the scans.



I've only concluded that it was V2 _because of a scan_, and I don't see any reason as to why Raikage would initially activate V2 only to de-power to V1 before complaining about needing to build up speed and being assisted by Ohnoki. That doesn't even make sense; perhaps Ay didn't feel the need to sustain V2 after the strike had been thrown or something.

Yes I do think Madara of all people would be able to manage a physical guard. Minato wouldn't have guarded even if he could- _Hiraishin_ is better. Even with Ay lightened by Ohnoki the Kages seemed to think that they needed to obscure Madara's vision with _Kirigakure_.



> Naruto may have had the body speed and reflexes for a last minute repositioning (that I guess you're assuming is off panel?), but Tsunade hasn't demonstrated that man. We know how quick and agile Naruto is...



Your contention/"the point" was that prediction became irrelevant because Tsunade lacked the body speed to do anything.

You're claiming that because someone faster than Tsunade could perform more physical movement (completely turning around mid-sprint vs. simply raising an arm) at the last second, Tsunade can't do anything at all......

Everybody has managed to move their body in some way, shape or form before Ay connected even when dealing with V2. Direct movement speed aside, Tsunade has demonstrated comparable swiftness of maneuvers to one of those people who was able to raise their arms to block a blindsiding Ay only a few inches away. It follows naturally that her arms should be able to maneuver quickly enough to do something.



> He was _expecting_ a "pretty fast" attack.
> 
> Still, Minato hadn't even realized _that the Raikage moved_ until the last second where that fist was in his face. You can tell by his awkward body position (almost petrified), and the fact that Minato's impulsive reflexes didn't kick in.



"Pretty fast" is extremely vague, so yeah I can claim Minato was relying on pure reflex as this was his first time witnessing it and he didn't even know so much as what ballpark Ay would be in. That's why he was surprised the first time around. Minato was shocked as to how fast Raikage got to his position at first, but I'm sure you saw how casually Minato went about avoiding Raikage only the second time. Familiarity makes a big difference, and Tsunade has seen Raikage go full speed more than one time.

Minato's impulsive reflexes kick in through _Hiraishin_ and his body position is wasn't even awkward- that was how he had been standing before Ay's charge. Had he been prettified that Kunai wouldn't have been flicked.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2013)

You're entire argument is based on the misjudgement that Kakashi won't learn from his mistakes. Kakuzu isn't comparable to Tsunade at all, as Kakashi didn't think Kakuzu had super strength, and Kakuzu (in Kakashi's eyes) wasn't using an unknown super Jutsu. You fail to realize Kakashi may treat Tsunade differently than the Ninja he's fought before...particularly because he actually has knowledge, and his Raikiri attempts don't always work...and you basically won't allow him to use Kamui because he chose not to against Pain (who isn't Tsunade).

But alas, if you think Katusyu can defeat Kakashi, or you think Kishimoto would have Katusyu defeat Kakashi, then this is a lost cause.


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## Turrin (Nov 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You're entire argument is based on the misjudgement that Kakashi won't learn from his mistakes. Kakuzu isn't comparable to Tsunade at all, as Kakashi didn't think Kakuzu had super strength, and Kakuzu (in Kakashi's eyes) wasn't using an unknown super Jutsu. You fail to realize Kakashi may treat Tsunade differently than the Ninja he's fought before...particularly because he actually has knowledge, and his Raikiri attempts don't always work...and you basically won't allow him to use Kamui because he chose not to against Pain (who isn't Tsunade).
> 
> But alas, if you think Katusyu can defeat Kakashi, or you think Kishimoto would have Katusyu defeat Kakashi, then this is a lost cause.



I don't see anything wrong with Katsura beating Kakashi. Katsuya is the strongest summon in the manga bar bijuu. The reason katsuya may not win against Kakashi is because of the random plot Kai time limits on summons that magically have been inserted into the manga and we are give no explanation for. With that aside I see no problem though.


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## Kai (Nov 8, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Katsuya is the strongest summon in the manga bar bijuu.


That is a very bold and premature claim to make considering Katsuyu has neither the offensive feats nor the offensive hype to call upon that even remotely implies she is the strongest summon bar bijuu.

When has the manga hyped Katsuyu's offensive prowess any more or even on the same level as other more power oriented boss summons even once?


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## Baroxio (Nov 8, 2013)

People really shouldn't be putting Mei and Tsunade below Ei.


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## Shamrodia (Nov 8, 2013)

High :

Orochimaru
Kakashi
Tobirama 
Minato
Hiruzen

Mid :

Mu
Gai
Itachi
Jiraiya


Low :

Tsunade
Ei
Onoki
Gaara
Mei
4? Kazekage
2? Mizukage


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## Bonly (Nov 8, 2013)

lolerslolol said:


> What kind of red herring is this?
> 
> Fact remains Sick Itachi is High Jounin.  Sorry... That is a fact though.



Nothing much, just pointing out that your back 

Nah he's Kage level. Sorry... That is a fact though.


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## Turrin (Nov 8, 2013)

Kai said:


> That is a very bold and premature claim to make considering Katsuyu has neither the offensive feats nor the offensive hype to call upon that even remotely implies she is the strongest summon bar bijuu.
> 
> When has the manga hyped Katsuyu's offensive prowess any more or even on the same level as other more power oriented boss summons even once?



Why is everything about offense? Second the moment that kishi indicated the katsuya that has been portrayed on par with the other boss summons is less than 1/10th the size of full katsuya


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## Baroxio (Nov 8, 2013)

Shamrodia said:


> High :
> 
> Orochimaru
> Kakashi
> ...


Onoki. 

As Low Kage.

Below Ei.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Why is everything about offense? Second the moment that kishi indicated the katsuya that has been portrayed on par with the other boss summons is less than 1/10th the size of full katsuya




Tsunade cannot summon the entire thing, so I don't know why you're bringing it up.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 8, 2013)

Cerberus > Katsuyu


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## FlamingRain (Nov 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You're entire argument is based on the misjudgement that Kakashi won't learn from his mistakes. Kakuzu isn't comparable to Tsunade at all, as Kakashi didn't think Kakuzu had super strength, and Kakuzu (in Kakashi's eyes) wasn't using an unknown super Jutsu. You fail to realize Kakashi may treat Tsunade differently than the Ninja he's fought before...particularly because he actually has knowledge, and his Raikiri attempts don't always work...and you basically won't allow him to use Kamui because he chose not to against Pain (who isn't Tsunade).



I don't fail to realize that Kakashi _may_ treat Tsunade differently, I simply don't believe its the most likely thing to happen. 

Kakashi just saw Kakuzu remain standing as Choji slammed into him so hard the earth shattered, so yes he knew he had super strength, not that it should matter to him that Tsunade does too if she's paralyzed in his eyes because he won't be getting hit. Kakashi based his assault on Kakuzu solely off of the fact that it was a Doton, because he knows the traditional weakness of Doton and had an opening. He ended up _overcoming that weakness with Raikiri_ just as he thought, but Kakuzu had 4 hearts. He should know the traditional weakness of medical Ninjutsu, and the same assault is enough to overcome that perceived limitation. But Tsunade is anatomically a normal human, so Kakashi _has no reason to treat her differently because she doesn't have extra hearts and last time he tried going with the weakness of the opponent's Jutsu it worked_. You'd be saying that because Kakashi succeeded in overcoming a then-unknown Doton with its traditional weakness, he'll "learn from his mistakes" and try something different on a person who _doesn't_ have 5 hearts? That isn't how learning works. The fact that Kakuzu isn't comparable to Tsunade is, if anything, _another factor in Tsunade's favor_.

What I don't allow is that Kakashi is _most likely_ to use _Kamui_ earlier, because he has never done that even when it would have been every bit as beneficial for him to do such in those situations as it would be here. You cannot find an example of Kakashi resorting to _Kamui_ before exhausting his other options through process of elimination because no such scan exists, and I have no reason to believe _Kamui_ has been incorporated into his "standard" fighting style.



> But alas, if you think Katusyu can defeat Kakashi, or you think Kishimoto would have Katusyu defeat Kakashi, then this is a lost cause.



I at least substantiated the claim, so I will think Katsuyu _can_ defeat Kakashi until you prove otherwise. "It's ridiculousness" doesn't cut it. Kakashi doesn't get to defeat legends just like that.


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## Baroxio (Nov 8, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Cerberus > Katsuyu


Btich please. Katsuya rolls over his ass. 

Acid can take out Cerberus, but bites won't take out Katsuya.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 8, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Acid can take out Cerberus


Like FRS did. Oh, wait


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## Baroxio (Nov 8, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Like FRS did. Oh, wait


Like Amaterasu did. Oh, wait


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## Shamrodia (Nov 8, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Onoki.
> 
> As Low Kage.
> 
> Below Ei.



You right.
Both should be in the same tier as Tsunade.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 8, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Like Amaterasu did. Oh, wait



Acid = Amaterasu? 

Seriously though - Kishimoto simply bumped Slugs to the level of Snakes/Toads. It seems that Slugs=Massive Katsuyu and you can summon chunks of it. While with Toads you have Elder Sage, Ma+Pa, Bunta+Hiro+Ken, Gamakichi and Gamatatsu, unnamed toads. Snakes - Elder Sage, Manda(normal and 2.0), Aoda and unnamed snakes. 1/10 Katsuyu vs a group of finest Snakes/Toads? Not sure what happens.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> He should know the traditional weakness of medical Ninjutsu, and the same assault is enough to overcome that perceived limitation. But Tsunade is anatomically a normal human, so Kakashi _has no reason to treat her differently because she doesn't have extra hearts and last time he tried going with the weakness of the opponent's Jutsu it worked_.




I think you missed the part where I said *Kakashi has no reason to get close to her in the first place*.

Tsunade his this thing called super strength, where mere taps can lead to defeat. Guess what? Kakuzu doesn't have that. Why is he going to get close to Tsunade again? Because he's gotten close to other opponents in the Manga that aren't similar to Tsunade..?

He has Raikiri, but that doesn't necessarily mean he must attempt to hit her with it. The fact that he doesn't know what Byakugo does only adds to that. There's literally no reason for him to even _risk_ getting close against a Taijutsu master.



> What I don't allow is that Kakashi is _most likely_ to use _Kamui_ earlier, because he has never done that even when it would have been every bit as beneficial for him to do such in those situations as it would be here. You cannot find an example of Kakashi resorting to _Kamui_ before exhausting his other options through process of elimination because no such scan exists, and I have no reason to believe _Kamui_ has been incorporated into his "standard" fighting style.




Considering the Mangekyou is taxing, he probably didn't feel comfortable using it against Pain with only half of his Chakra left...

Unless he Raiton clone-feints Tsunade, he won't be in a similar position. He'll resort to Kamui if he feels the need. There is no set law stating he must exhaust all of his other options first. 



> I at least substantiated the claim, so I will think Katsuyu _can_ defeat Kakashi until you prove otherwise. "It's ridiculousness" doesn't cut it. Kakashi doesn't get to defeat legends just like that.






Madara and Hashirama are legends, not Katusyu. He'd most likely just put it in a Genjutsu and call it a day.

But hey bro, if you want to believe Katsuyu beats Kakashi, okay.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I think you missed the part where I said *Kakashi has no reason to get close to her in the first place*.



You must have missed the part where I answered that he had no reason to get close to those other opponents either.



> Tsunade his this thing called super strength, Kakuzu doesn't have that.



Yes he does, if he didn't he'd have been face-flat in the ground after Choji's attack instead of remaining on his feet.



> Because he's gotten close to other opponents in the Manga that aren't similar to Tsunade.



Because in his eyes, a replay of those events with Tsunade replacing those other opponents should lead to a dead Tsunade.



> Unless he Raiton clone-feints Tsunade, he won't be in a similar position.



Which I think he would, and did you not just previously say you expected Tsunade to strike a clone?



> He'll resort to Kamui if he feels the need. There is no set law stating he must exhaust all of his other options first.



Sans the IC tendency, which is what I'm going to go by when I'm looking for the most likely scenario.



> Madara and Hashirama are legends, not Katusyu. He'd most likely just put it in a Genjutsu and call it a day.



Madara and Hashirama are more like the pinnacle of shinobi legends, but Katsuyu is still a legendary slug from a legendary forest and one of the signature trump cards of a living legend.

Genjutsu working on a hive-minded slug conglomerate with Chakra connected to Tsunade seems exceedingly unlikely to me.




But yeah we're pretty much at the point of repeating previous posts. So I'm losing interest.


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## Veracity (Nov 8, 2013)

Kai said:


> That is a very bold and premature claim to make considering Katsuyu has neither the offensive feats nor the offensive hype to call upon that even remotely implies she is the strongest summon bar bijuu.
> 
> When has the manga hyped Katsuyu's offensive prowess any more or even on the same level as other more power oriented boss summons even once?



Her defence makes up for that though. Not many summons bar Bjuu, Manda 2, and the Hyrda dogs can survive multiple baths of acid. It would melt their entire bodies. 

On top of being literally top tier in summoning durabilty, Katsuyu is the most help to bar Bjuu and Toad Sages. She can be offense normally; Split up to become more of a nuisance and increase her probability of connecting an acid bath; transfer chakra ; split up for better communication ; and even has a regeneration tech.

& that's only 5-10% Katsuyu. 100% Katsuyu is easily Bjuui level, not even joking.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 8, 2013)

Yeah, Kakuzu and Pain aren't Taijutsu masters with the strength to end fights with taps.... 

But no, he fights Tsunade up close just as he did them because "IC" 


...And if Kakashi has eye power capable of controlling the Kyuubi, then Tsunade's slug is fair game.


_______

We also discussed this entire match-up with favorable conditions for Tsunade, honestly. Granted most matches are under unfair conditions, but still...

Under equal circumstances (neutral location, no restrictions, equal knowledge [whether it be full or none], and a medium starting distance), I don't think it's even a debate.


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## Baroxio (Nov 8, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Acid = Amaterasu?
> 
> Seriously though - Kishimoto simply bumped Slugs to the level of Snakes/Toads. It seems that Slugs=Massive Katsuyu and you can summon chunks of it. While with Toads you have Elder Sage, Ma+Pa, Bunta+Hiro+Ken, Gamakichi and Gamatatsu, unnamed toads. Snakes - Elder Sage, Manda(normal and 2.0), Aoda and unnamed snakes. 1/10 Katsuyu vs a group of finest Snakes/Toads? Not sure what happens.



Acid = FRS? 

But yeah, let's table the silliness.

Still think Tsunade & Mei are > Ei. Mid Kage easy.

Ei is low Kage due to being fairly useless at attacking anyone who isn't fodder. He's been completely irrelevant ever since he was trounced by Base Killer Bee. He's nowhere near as good as his fucking father, who has stronger defenses AND offense than he does, and that's not counting the inclusion of a ranged attack in the form of Black Lightning.

He's barely able to deal the same amount of damage as Tsunade even when he has Onoki empowering all of his hits, and lacks the tremendous amount of utility Tsunade brings (as well as Katsuya, which solos).

He's got nothing on Mei, who can spam defensive ninjutsu with fucking legends,  has an unblockable nigh-uncounterable offense, and a fair bit of utility with Hidden Mist.

What does Raikage have? He's fast and hard to hurt. That's it. That's literally it. Sure he's fairly strong, but not to any special degree beyond "above average." He looses against Base Bee and even when empowered looses to Tsunade in strength. The only thing he has is his speed (which most top tiers can contend with) and his durability (which most top tiers can penetrate).

He is objectively weaker than Mei and Tsunade.


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## Bonly (Nov 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> You must have missed the part where I answered that he had no reason to get close to those other opponents either.



Did he have full(or close to full) knowledge on those people?


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## FlamingRain (Nov 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> ...And if Kakashi has eye power capable of controlling the Kyuubi, then Tsunade's slug is fair game.



Kurama is not a hive-mind connected to someone else's Chakra?


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2013)

What does being hive-minded and connected to Tsunade's Chakra (which means she's being assisted by Tsunade, btw) have to do with Genjutsu effectiveness?


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2013)

Baroxio said:
			
		

> The only thing he has is his speed (which most top tiers can contend with) and his durability (which most top tiers can penetrate).




To be fair, all top-tiers can mop the floor with Ei, Tsunade, or Mei. Even high tiers like Itachi and Pain can do it with little difficulty. 

Very few people can "contend with his speed." Not even Sharingan Sasuke couldn't; he needed the Mangekyou's omnidirectional Susano'o.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What does being hive-minded and connected to Tsunade's Chakra (which means she's being assisted by Tsunade, btw) have to do with Genjutsu effectiveness?



A requirement to use some sort of mass Genjutsu considering how many different minds are present.

Hastily being broken by someone with "the pinnacle of Chakra control" once something's Chakra goes wrong....


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> A requirement to use some sort of mass Genjutsu considering how many different minds are present.
> 
> Hastily being broken by someone with "the pinnacle of Chakra control" once something's Chakra goes wrong....




The hive mind concept only applies if Katsuyu is split. The Mini Katsuyu's cannot take down Kakashi.

I also don't think Tsunade could've broken Obito's control over the Kyuubi with just Chakra Control.


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## Turrin (Nov 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade cannot summon the entire thing, so I don't know why you're bringing it up.



Tsunade should be able to summon a decent amount of it if she isn't focused on healing.


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## Blaze Release (Nov 8, 2013)

I know some of the past kages are demons and the current kage's most likely due to the not so imminent threat of war amongst themselves are not as strong as their predecessors. The term kage level imo is being underestimated if Itachi can be deemed high kage.

While not too much into tiers i usually see people inflating their tiers with 'demi god' and 'gods'.
Personally i always hit the roof with high kage those being hashirama, voe madara, naruto, etc.

Anyway i do not believe any of the people in OP are high kage unless for minato it is edo bm.
Otherwise, they are all mid to low kage:

Mid kage:
Mu
Minato
Itachi
Kakashi
Tobirama
Sm Jiraiya
2nd Mizukage
Onoki
Orochimaru

Low kage:
The rest


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## Tsunami (Nov 8, 2013)

High Kage
Itachi
Jiraiya
Minato
Mu
Onoki

Mid Kage
Gai
Ei
Tsunade
Orochimaru
2nd Mizukage
Hiruzen
Tobirama
Kakashi

Low Kage
Mei
Gaara
4th Kazekage


That list is in order of skill top to bottom.


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## Blaze Release (Nov 8, 2013)

lolerslolol said:


> SM Jiraiya is only equal to Itachi and mid Kage?  WTF?!?
> Minato = Kakashi
> 
> This list is pure and utter shit.



Perhaps, but its my opinion. See no reason to get your panty in a bunch or did you catch feelings.

Anyway while they are in the same tier (mid kage), if you noticed i have also ranked them, more or less according to their strength. Nd kakashi giving Base Minato a fight or any of the others in the same mid kage tier is perfectly reasonable


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## Ersa (Nov 8, 2013)

lolerslolol said:


> SM Jiraiya is only equal to Itachi and mid Kage?  WTF?!?
> Minato = Kakashi
> 
> This list is pure and utter shit.


_Viz Media_
Kisame - He's in a different league, even if you might be able to take him on. I'm not so sure about me.
Itachi - Yeah...if we faced off we might end up killing each other. At the very least we'd hurt each other really badly.



And Itachi could've been stronger and lying so not to kill one of Konoha's best. The reverse is obviously not true because Kisame believes Itachi is at that level and he doesn't deny it.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2013)

Itachi was talking about the Nine-Tails Jinchuriki, not Jiraiya. Kisame and Itachi speculated that they and any amount of Akatsuki back would draw at best against the might of the _Nine-Tails_.....which makes tons more sense. They didn't know that Naruto could not control his power.


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## Blaze Release (Nov 8, 2013)

While this is off topic, what people seem to confuse about kisame's statement was that he was talking about a hype/title comparison and if i remember correctly he said when compared to the uchiha and the swordsmen of the mist, the sannin title holds more value. It just so happens that, jiraiya was the sannin in question (when they later started talking about, naruto's protector) and very possible that he would have said the same, referring the to the sannin title again if it was either Tsunade or Orochimaru.

Kisame has always been a shinobi who goes alot by reputation


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2013)

Wolfstein said:


> All of these characters are arguably kage level, but where exactly do they stand as far as _kage level_ goes? Low, Mid or High Kage?
> .



Top

- Minato  (living)

High Kage

- Jiraiya
- Onoki - Mu - 2nd Mizukage - Tobirama 
- Itachi (he can defeat the 2ns Mizukage IF the sharingan can see though his genjutsu)


Mid  

- Ei (he may defeat itachi)
-  Kakashi
- Tsunade (Not necessarily weaker than A though) - Orochimaru 
- Gaara (he can defeat itach)
-  Gai

 Low,
- Hiruzen (although he is almost on par with the Sannin while being old and stronger than
the Gokage according to Kabuto)
- Mei (she may defeat Gaara though)
- 4th Kazekage (he can defeat the 2nd Mizukage)


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## Ersa (Nov 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Itachi was talking about the Nine-Tails Jinchuriki, not Jiraiya. Kisame and Itachi speculated that they and any amount of Akatsuki back would draw at best against the might of the _Nine-Tails_.....which makes tons more sense. They didn't know that Naruto could not control his power.


Kisame mentions the Sannin after though, it's implied it's Jiraiya.

And honestly a full power Akatsuki would beat the Nine Tails, Pein/Itachi/Kisame would arguably give it a good fight and possibly win depending on the power of CT. I don't believe the Akatsuki as a collective group is weaker than SM Naruto who stalemated 50% Kyuubi for a bit.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Itachi was talking about the Nine-Tails Jinchuriki, not Jiraiya. Kisame and Itachi speculated that they and any amount of Akatsuki back would draw at best against the might of the _Nine-Tails_.....which makes tons more sense. They didn't know that Naruto could not control his power.



Strat has sucked you in.

I'm pretty sure general consensus amongst translators is that the subject was Jiraiya.

お守りが あの“伝説の三忍”とは is normally translated as something along the lines of "his babysitter is one of those legendary three ninjas". People trip up over "his" and claim that the Akatsuki pair must have been speaking of the person the pronoun is substituting. In Japanese, _that pronoun doesn't exist_. Even in English though, "he" could have still referred to Jiraiya before they started referring to Naruto with "his", as "babysitter" would tip off the other to the change in subject.

Their actions following that statement suggest that as well.

The pair knew Naruto was a mere child, and if they had truly been giving all of that praise to Naruto they sure didn't have a problem with strolling up to such a dangerous person's room, knocking on the door without an ounce of hesitation and saying "you're coming with us".

On the other hand, they actually went out of their way and took precautions against Jiraiya in an attempt to distract and distance him from themselves. When he returned, escaping his Jutsu required Itachi to resort to the Mangekyō, saving Kisame's panic-sweating tail in the process.

If what you are suggesting were true, this would have been comparable to Orochimaru and Kabuto challenging Tsunade and after stopping her with her phobia (in place of stripping Naruto of his chakra), running away once Shizune alone returned.

It simply makes more sense for Jiraiya to have been the subject of their conversation.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Itachi was talking about the Nine-Tails Jinchuriki, not Jiraiya. Kisame and Itachi speculated that they and any amount of Akatsuki back would draw at best against the might of the _Nine-Tails_.....which makes tons more sense. They didn't know that Naruto could not control his power.



According to takl he was talking about Jman. 
+
it's nonsense to think that the MS who CAN control Kurama easily and Kisame who's the PERFECT mach against the Jin were talking about 12 years old kid who can't even use his Bijuu's
power.

use some common sense, it's not all that bad.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Strat has sucked you in.
> 
> I'm pretty sure general consensus amongst translators is that the subject was Jiraiya.



Exactly! 


the answer


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## Blaze Release (Nov 8, 2013)

This particular topic has been going on for some time. Personally i have pushed it to the back of my mind because apart from the obvious hype/title comparison that kisame used to state strength's which as i said could be used with the other 2 sannins, after kisame witnessing finally witnessing a brief encounter between jiraiya and himself and itachi, it appears he retracted his statement which was purely based of hype and questioned why there was a need to flee, but also stated itachi could have achieved something, going by the conversation if he had finished his sentence it is obvious what he was going to say. This is after witnessing a portion of jiraiya's strength and gaining a better picture, rather than one based fully on hype/title.

As for the whol situation to who kisame was talking about before mentioning naruto and jiraiya. While myself i am not sure who he was talking about it is rather clear that he was not talking neither naruto or jiraiya when he mentioned 'he'.

Firstly this is the viz [1]

The raw from Takl, but more importantly the relevant points.

Kisame:
「アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手でも私じゃあ 分かりませんよ…」
「次元が違う」
"You might be able to somehow defeat him, but me, well I don't know..."
"Our levels are too far apart"


「ラーメン屋で　やっと見付けたはいいが…お守りが　あの゛伝説の三忍゛とは」
「彼が相手では゛木ノ葉のうちは一族゛も゛霧の忍刀七人衆゛の名もかすんでしまう」
"It was good we finally found them by the ramen store, but... his guardian is of those 'Legendary Three Ninja' "
"He, as an opponent, makes 'Konoha's Uchiha clan' and the 'Seven Shinobi Swordmen of the Mist' seem like nothing."


The two sentences are not a continuation, it doesn't make sense. Its clear that, Kisame started talking about them in the second quote. Why would he talk about Jiraiya in the first quote, then later say "It was good we finally found them by the ramen store, but... his guardian is of those 'Legendary Three Ninja".

It appears he is finally reached the point of talking about jiraiya or should has say has finally acknowledged jiraiya's presence in connection to naruto. He should have noted jiraiya's title in the first quote if he wasindeed talking about him in the first place and not in the second quote

While not saying in the first scan they were talking about the fox, it blatantly makes no sense for that the 'him' or 'he', in the first quote was jiraiya. Not that itachi saying that more members will not change a thing makes any sense lol


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## Ersa (Nov 8, 2013)

Important to note Itachi would not have wanted to fight Jiraiya to the death because it would've weakened his own village immensely


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## Turrin (Nov 8, 2013)

Itachi and Kisame were talking about Jiriaya. There was a thread a while back where all the prominent translators on the forum discussed the issue w/ Shonsuki (perhaps the most prominent) arguing they were referring to Jiraiya and it just doesn't translate over that well in english. Gottheim (another prominent translator) thought they were referring to the kyuubi, but after talking to Shonensuki and actually going to a bunch of Japanese websites/forums to see how native Japanese speaks took the line he decided he was wrong and they were indeed referring the Jiraiya.

So it's pretty indisputable that they were referring to him and it outright doesn't make sense that they'd be referring to the Kyuubi Jin Naruto, from a logical standpoint. I did a very detailed write up on the subject compiling a-lot of the different trans and translators talk about it in this thread:


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## Veracity (Nov 8, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Important to note Itachi would not have wanted to fight Jiraiya to the death because it would've weakened his own village immensely



He had no problem completely fucking Kakashi over. Nobody bar Tsunade an ell the effects of that Genjustu and Itachi doesn't know the extent of her abilities.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Important to note Itachi would not have wanted to fight Jiraiya to the death because it would've weakened his own village immensely



he did not have a problem trying to kill kakashi, Kurnai, and kidnapping Naruto, no? 

Edit: Never mind, Likes boss already pointed that out.


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## Ersa (Nov 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> He had no problem completely fucking Kakashi over. Nobody bar Tsunade an ell the effects of that Genjustu and Itachi doesn't know the extent of her abilities.


Yet he didn't kill him, Kakashi said there was no doubt he could have. And Jiraiya was 2-3 tiers ahead of Kakashi back in Part I. He was more valuable.

Itachi spared Kakashi and if he and Kisame had tried they could have overpowered base Jiraiya and taken Naruto. I don't believe Jiraiya in base can solo MS Itachi/Kisame and neither should anyone.


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## Turrin (Nov 8, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Yet he didn't kill him, Kakashi said there was no doubt he could have. And Jiraiya was 2-3 tiers ahead of Kakashi back in Part I. He was more valuable.
> 
> Itachi spared Kakashi and if he and Kisame had tried they could have overpowered base Jiraiya and taken Naruto. I don't believe Jiraiya in base can solo MS Itachi/Kisame and neither should anyone.



I doubt in Kishi's mind Kisame would even become involved. Kishi sidelined a bunch of Konoha Jonin and Gai (who should be around Kisame's level) on the basis of Naruto being too far above them due to learning Senjutsu; even though later Gai is helping a much stronger KCM/BM Naruto. The fact of the matter is Kishi writes of characters for no reason due to plot. He wrote of Kisame in that instance because Naruto couldn't be capture for plot-purposes, just like he wrote of all those Konoha Jonin and Gai in the Pain fight, because Naruto was the one he wanted to take down Deva Realm. 

So really the only characters to be discussed here would be J-man vs Itachi, and all Itachi says is that he'd be badly injured if he fought J-man; this makes total sense because no matter what side of the Jiraiya vs Itachi debate one falls on, Itachi would need to use MS to take down Jiriaya, and MS heavily damages Itachi and causes his illness to flare up. This would be especially true since Itachi had previously already used MS to subdue Kakashi that day, so while his stamina may have recovered, more MS usage would certainly cause greater damage; just like how Sasuke recovered his stamina by the time he fought Danzo, but his eyes didn't recover and using MS again so soon caused severe damage to his eyes by the time he fought Kakashi.

If Itachi fought J-man, even if he won he'd suffer major damage from illness/MS-eyesight-drain and would be in worse condition in part II, which would have likely prevented him from accomplishing the things he did in Part II.

People have to remember Itachi was on his death bed and forcibly prolonging his life with drugs, to go and fight a ninja as accomplished as J-man in that situation should be expected to have serious effects on him; possibly even result in his death or severe injury, just as Itachi indicated,


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## Ersa (Nov 8, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I doubt in Kishi's mind Kisame would even become involved. Kishi sidelined a bunch of Konoha Jonin and Gai (who should be around Kisame's level) on the basis of Naruto being too far above them due to learning Senjutsu; even though later Gai is helping a much stronger KCM/BM Naruto. The fact of the matter is Kishi writes of characters for no reason due to plot. He wrote of Kisame in that instance because Naruto couldn't be capture for plot-purposes, just like he wrote of all those Konoha Jonin and Gai in the Pain fight, because Naruto was the one he wanted to take down Deva Realm.
> 
> So really the only characters to be discussed here would be J-man vs Itachi, and all Itachi says is that he'd be badly injured if he fought J-man; this makes total sense because no matter what side of the Jiraiya vs Itachi debate one falls on, Itachi would need to use MS to take down Jiriaya, and MS heavily damages Itachi and causes his illness to flare up. This would be especially true since Itachi had previously already used MS to subdue Kakashi that day, so while his stamina may have recovered, more MS usage would certainly cause greater damage; just like how Sasuke recovered his stamina by the time he fought Danzo, but his eyes didn't recover and using MS again so soon caused severe damage to his eyes by the time he fought Kakashi.
> 
> ...


The difference here is that Gai was actually out of the village, Kisame is not going to see a massive Kage level battle going on and chill there. And despite his admission of being weaker, he is still on par if not stronger than most Kages and will pose a threat to Jiraiya. Besides Kisame is actually quite loyal to Akatsuki and even Itachi.

Exactly since Sick Itachi and Jiraiya are more or less equals, having a Kage level assisting you would ought to tip the balances? I mean picture, Ei + Jiraiya vs. Itachi, that would comfortably go to the duo. And yes a fight between the two would be close, heavily damaging Itachi and wounding Jiraiya. I agree completely.

Itachi vs. Jiraiya (SM) Close could go either way.
Itachi + Kisame vs. Jiraiya (SM) Duo win everytime.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2013)

Turrin said:


> People have to remember Itachi was on his death bed and forcibly prolonging his life with drugs, to go and fight a ninja as accomplished as J-man in that situation should be expected to have serious effects on him; possibly even result in his death or severe injury, just as Itachi indicated,



just because he was like this in part 2, does not mean he was ill 3 years before that. 



> Itachi + Kisame vs. Jiraiya (SM) Duo win everytime.


any solution for Frog Song?


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## Nikushimi (Nov 8, 2013)

Jiraiya being able to kill Itachi and Kisame in a three-way mutual deathmatch over Naruto in no way implies that Jiraiya is as strong as or stronger than Itachi+Kisame.

One guy with a handgun and two guys with handguns can all end up shooting each other dead in a gun fight; it doesn't mean the one guy is as strong as both guys- just that both sides were equipped to kill each other.

Itachi by himself is on a completely different level from Jiraiya and Kisame is close enough to J-man's level to put up a fight, too. Itachi just happened to have the presence of mind to realize that Jiraiya was still a threat, under the circumstances.


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## Baroxio (Nov 8, 2013)

Blaze Release said:


> This particular topic has been going on for some time. Personally i have pushed it to the back of my mind because apart from the obvious hype/title comparison that kisame used to state strength's which as i said could be used with the other 2 sannins, after kisame witnessing finally witnessing a brief encounter between jiraiya and himself and itachi, it appears he retracted his statement which was purely based of hype and questioned why there was a need to flee, but also stated itachi could have achieved something, going by the conversation if he had finished his sentence it is obvious what he was going to say. This is after witnessing a portion of jiraiya's strength and gaining a better picture, rather than one based fully on hype/title.



Basically this.

It doesn't matter if Kisame was talking about Jiraiya or the Kyuubi in that first instance. What matters is that after witnessing Jiraiya's strength firsthand, his opinion is that Itachi could have beaten him or at least achieve something fighting him.

Combine this with Jiraiya's statement that it took him a huge effort to simply separate them from Naruto and there's absolutely no reason to suggest that Jiraiya was the stronger of the two. Certainly not to the point where he could take them both on while protecting Naruto.

This doesn't even account for what we learned about Itachi's true motivations, or what we later learn about Kisame's strengths.

I'm fairly certain that _either _of the two could have beaten him.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> *Itachi by himself is on a completely different level from Jiraiya* and *Kisame is close enough to J-man's level to put up a fight*, too. Itachi just happened to have the presence of mind to realize that Jiraiya was still a threat, under the circumstances.



1-Proofs? 
2- Proof? because last I recall Kisame said 
"Our levels are too far apart" I beleive that does not mean "Kisame is close enough to J-man's level" 

so, other than downplaying Jman for the sake of itachi or Kisame is there anything in the
manga shows that?


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 8, 2013)

Elia said:


> 1-Proofs?



Itachi stomped Orochimaru twice in seconds flat, something J-man could never do. Orochimaru admitted Itachi was stronger, but always treated Jiraiya like shit. Jiraiya was defeated by Pain; Itachi beat Nagato. Itachi was also able to fight the likes of Killer B, KCM Naruto, and Sage Kabuto with physical attacks, not even trying to kill them with the Mangekyou Sharingan. He even had to remind Sasuke numerous times not to risk killing Kabuto.



> 2- Proof? because last I recall Kisame said
> "Our levels are too far apart" I beleive that does not mean "Kisame is close enough to J-man's level"



You are leaving out the rest of Kisame's statement, which included that he did not know if he could beat Jiraiya (implying it was possible) but was sure that Itachi could. Kisame's abilities are unique in that he can beat opponents stronger than himself by stealing their power to make them weaker and heal his injuries, so just because he is not on the same level doesn't mean victory is out of the question.



> so, other than downplaying Jman for the sake of itacho or Kisame is there anything in the
> manga shows that?



There is also Kisame directly questioning Itachi's retreat and Itachi giving reasons that had nothing to do with Jiraiya (he was tired from overusing the MS and there was no need to capture Naruto yet).

And also, there was that time the two of them spoke about capturing Naruto later and elaborated on why it wasn't a good idea to do it after all, also unrelated to Jiraiya. Chiyo independently corroborated this even earlier in the manga [1] [2].

And then you have Itachi flat-out beating a stronger version of the same Rinnegan user that beat Jiraiya, and also another Sage Mode user, like I said. Wadding up Orochimaru and throwing him away like a used tissue is good enough for me, though.


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## Turrin (Nov 8, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> The difference here is that Gai was actually out of the village, Kisame is not going to see a massive Kage level battle going on and chill there.


Gai returned to the village and was still told to stay out of the battle. So this is not correct.



> And despite his admission of being weaker, he is still on par if not stronger than most Kages and will pose a threat to Jiraiya. Besides Kisame is actually quite loyal to Akatsuki and even Itachi.


Logically speaking sure, but logically speaking Team Gai + a bunch of other Konoha Jonin would pose a threat to Deva Realm and be helpful to Naruto. Yet Kishi wrote them off, claiming their level was insufficient; essentially in the exact same way he wrote Kisame off.



> Exactly since Sick Itachi and Jiraiya are more or less equals, having a Kage level assisting you would ought to tip the balances? I mean picture, Ei + Jiraiya vs. Itachi, that would comfortably go to the duo. And yes a fight between the two would be close, heavily damaging Itachi and wounding Jiraiya. I agree completely.


Sure, but the implication is that Kisame would have been sidelined due to Plot. 

Basically I'm not arguing that Kisame + Itachi beats J-man. I'm simply saying people are being silly to say that statement wasn't about J-man or was Itachi lying, due to the Kisame detail, because Kishi pulls this BS all the time with sidelining characters for plot purposes.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Strat has sucked you in.



​


FlamingRain said:


> I'm pretty sure general consensus amongst translators is that the subject was Jiraiya.



There is no consensus. Some translators argue one way, some argue another. It's ambiguous, just as it is in the viz translation, although the viz translators certainly thought the initial subject was Kurama..​


FlamingRain said:


> Their actions following that statement suggest that as well.



Not at all, given how little they were concerned with Jiraiya when he showed up and that Itachi specifically said "At Naruto's current level, there's no rush." after they departed.​


FlamingRain said:


> The pair knew Naruto was a mere child



Kisame actually said, "I can't believe this is the Nine Tails." They didn't really know what to expect from Naruto, and Itachi said as much afterward: 'at Naruto's current level, there's no worry.'​


FlamingRain said:


> On the other hand, they actually went out of their way and took precautions against Jiraiya in an attempt to distract and distance him from themselves.



They also said they didn't expect the trick to work on Jiriaya and didn't appear _at all_ worried when he showed up, nor were they impressed afterward.​


FlamingRain said:


> When he returned, escaping his Jutsu required Itachi to resort to the Mangekyō, saving Kisame's panic-sweating tail in the process.



Kisame asked him why he had to retreat despite earlier asking Itachi not use his Mangekyō. Itachi didn't deny he could beat Jiriaya, and simply said there was no rush given Naruto's level.​


FlamingRain said:


> It simply makes more sense for Jiraiya to have been the subject of their conversation.



'Even with more Akatsuki back-up, herpa lerpa derpa, we would still only stalemate... even though I raped another Sannin when I was pre-teen.' That makes so much sense, Itachi.

In contrast, given Kurama's godly hype, particularly in part one, it stands to reason that Itachi would say that having more Akatsuki members with him wouldn't alter his chances.

Consider what the reader had been told throughout it all:​

Orochimaru said it was impossible for him to defeat Itachi. 
Itachi said the only ninja that could beat him was [Sasuke.] 
Kisame expressed uncertainty at Naruto being the Nine Tales.
Kisame warned Itachi not to use his Mangekyō again (after Sasuke.)
Kisame asserted that Itachi didn't need to retreat from Jiraiya.
Itachi said at Naruto's current level, there was no rush.

And then after:​

Orochimaru took on both other Sannin without arms.
Orochimaru said there was was a gap between him and Jiriaya
Itachi was shown steamrolling Orochimaru as a kid

The whole Jiraiya > Itachi + Kisame thing only survived as long as it did because Jiriaya was the strongest "good guy" in part one in the midst of a host of powerful villains.​


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2013)

> [=Nikushimi;48921993]Itachi stomped Orochimaru twice in seconds flat, something J-man could never do. Orochimaru admitted Itachi was stronger, but always treated Jiraiya like shit. Jiraiya was defeated by Pain; Itachi beat Nagato. Itachi was also able to fight the likes of Killer B, KCM Naruto, and Sage Kabuto with physical attacks, not even trying to kill them with the Mangekyou Sharingan. He even had to remind Sasuke numerous times not to risk killing Kabuto.


1- I asked for proof to why itachi is stronger than Jman not Oro. 
2- Itachi had Naruto & B to protect his @$$  (from CT) and Nagato was mindless.
3- Kabuto cut itachi in half, not to mention that was Sasuke ti save his @$$ twice. 
thank God that he's edo and won't die, or else this would have been awful


Unlike Jman who was a live. 

Also, by your logic Temari is stronger than Itachi because she defeated Tayuya, and Tayuya defeated
itachi with one attack in BASE. 


> You are leaving out the rest of Kisame's statement, which included that he did not know if he could beat Jiraiya (implying it was possible) but was sure that Itachi could. Kisame's abilities are unique in that he can beat opponents stronger than himself by stealing their power to make them weaker and heal his injuries, so just because he is not on the same level doesn't mean victory is out of the question.



mm let's see what the rest of the statement
Originally Posted by Ch144, p8
Kisame:
「アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手でも私じゃあ 分かりませんよ…」
「次元が違う」
"You *might* be able to somehow defeat him, but me, well I don't know..."
"*Our levels are too far apart*"

Itachi:
「ああ…やり合えは二人共殺されるか良くて相打ちというところ」
「…たとえ人数を増やしたとしても変わらないだろう」
"Yeah...* If we fought him, we might both be killed. If it goes well, we might take him with us.*"
"Even if the number of people were to increase, this probably wouldn't change"

Kisame
「ラーメン屋で　やっと見付けたはいいが…お守りが　あの゛伝説の三忍゛とは」
「彼が相手では゛木ノ葉のうちは一族゛も゛霧の忍刀七人衆゛の名もかすんでしまう」
"It was good we finally found them by the ramen store, but... his guardian is of those 'Legendary Three Ninja' "
"He, as an opponent, makes 'Konoha's Uchiha clan' and the 'Seven Shinobi Swordmen of the Mist' seem like nothing."

Itachi:
「ああ…しかし……」
「どんな強者にも弱点というのがあるものだ……」
"Yes... However......"
"No matter how strong a person is, he is bound to have a weakness..."

the only thing I see here, is Kisame stated clearly that he's no mach for jman, and itachi MIGHT
have a chance, but then itachi corrected him and stated that they are BOTH the best they can do
is killing Jman by the cost of their lives. 

and just so whe don't inter the loop of drama, that they were talking about kid Naruto, then
allow me to give you those links




> There is also Kisame directly questioning Itachi's retreat and Itachi giving reasons that had nothing to do with Jiraiya (he was tired from overusing the MS and there was no need to capture Naruto yet).


his statement was never been completed in the first place, maybe he wanted to say
itachi could have killed Sasuke since he was fighting him, how do you know? 


> And also, there was that time the two of them spoke about capturing Naruto later and elaborated on why it wasn't a good idea to do it after all, also unrelated to Jiraiya. Chiyo independently corroborated this even earlier in the manga [1] [2].



I'm not sure honestly how does that prove anything. 
he stated "if we try..." Also, itachi fought Konoha at the beginning of part 2 to help the Akatsuki
to revive the Tree, ow do you know he was not talking about that time? Or if they try to take Naruto later ? 


> And then you have Itachi flat-out beating a stronger version of the same Rinnegan user that beat Jiraiya, and also another Sage Mode user, like I said. Wadding up Orochimaru and throwing him away like a used tissue is good enough for me, though.



Again Jman was fighting by himself he did not have 2 jins with him to help him + Pain took
him off guard on the other hand Kabuto forgot that itachi is even there.  

So, we can agree that
Shika > Temari > Tayuya CS2 > Tayuya in base > Edo Itachi?  

anyway, I get what I want, there is no proofs of itachi being stronger than Jman
but there is a clear proof that jman > itachi. Other than that it's only itachi's fans opinion. @.@

thank you for this little debate. @.@


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## Turrin (Nov 8, 2013)

@Strategoob

Lol stop trolling, there was a consensus among translators and the one translator that disagreed changed his mind when he realized that native japanese speaks thought it was very clearly referring to J-man. I was there that day, when the Kyuubi-Jin theory died.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 8, 2013)

Believe it or not, Turrin, there is no consensus from translators, and as you know, the vast majority of Japanese readers believe Itachi smokes Jiriaya, so clearly they don't buy into that interpretation either way,



			
				Kirin Rei (translator) said:
			
		

> The above translation is way off.
> 
> Kisame - You could somehow win, but I couldn't stand up to such an opponent for more than a couple of minutes... It's on a completely different level.
> Itachi - Ah... Either (we) both (he says both/two, meaning him and Kisame) would die, or it would be a draw... The result wouldn't change even if we increased our numbers.
> ...



Source

But ultimately, the viz translation is professional, and supports Kurama being the subject, as does the context. Plus the Japanese readers collectively believe Itachi > Jiraiya so let the stupid argument die already.

"Jiriaya > Itachi + Kisame + more backup" is so retarded that you should all feel bad for debating what you debate anyway, and that's coming from someone that argues how the Yata Mirror reflects the moon back at Rikūdo.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2013)

Aww shit. Shots fired.


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## Veracity (Nov 8, 2013)

Lol at Oro "taking" on two other Sannin. 

- He had critical assistance from Kabuto.
- Tsunade and Jirayia were also in terrible condition.
- He got his ass completely waxed when Tsunade became serious.


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## Jad (Nov 8, 2013)

Am I wrong in saying Sannin are being overrated? I'm just skimming.

Come on, Jiraiya beating Kisame and Itachi? That sounds like a fans wet dream.


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## Baroxio (Nov 9, 2013)

Saying Orochimaru had assistance from Kabuto doesn't really matter since the other two sanin had assistance from Shizune and Naruto.

And neither Tsunade nor Jiraiya were as bad as Orochimaru, who not only couldn't move his fucking arms and thus had no ninjutsu, but also experienced terrible pain due to them.

As for getting his ass waxed, Tsunade couldn't touch him until he grabbed her. He was dodging her shit just fine all day long, and she's a CQC specialist while he has CQC as his weakest area.


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## Trojan (Nov 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Believe it or not, Turrin, there is no consensus from translators, and as you know, the vast majority of Japanese readers believe Itachi smokes Jiriaya, so clearly they don't buy into that interpretation either way,
> 
> 
> 
> ...








Jad said:


> Am I wrong in saying Sannin are being overrated? I'm just skimming.
> 
> Come on, Jiraiya beating Kisame and Itachi? That sounds like a fans wet dream.



It sounds like canon if you asked me.


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## Turrin (Nov 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Believe it or not, Turrin, there is no consensus from translators, and


I was talking about actually active translators on Naruto-fan. Not some random ass one you pulled out of nowhere. 



> as you know, the vast majority of Japanese readers believe Itachi smokes Jiriaya, so clearly they don't buy into that interpretation either way,


No I don't know that, in-fact I have no clue where your getting that from; and if that was the case I'd certainly have no clue which Itachi they'd be talking about; sick, edo, healthy...who the hell knows. Plus who would win is a subjective opinion, I really don't care what Japanese-fans think in terms of their opinion, I do care as should anyone else how they understand their own language.



> But ultimately, the viz translation is professional, and supports Kurama being the subject, as does the context.


Makes total sense for the Viz to be referring to Naruto 

- I'm sure Kisame thought a 12 yo was for sure out of his league ("He's in a different league") 
- I'm sure Itachi thought at the very least a12 yo would hurt him really badly ("At the very least we'd hurt each other badly.") 

That's why they confidently went up and just casually knocked on Naruto's door, because they thought the 12 yo was such a massive threat to them 

And before you come in here with some BS about them thinking Naruto was a perfect Jin or like Nii Yugito who could pull out a full Bijuu transformation, that BS doesn't fly, because these statements from the Official Viz are made definitively. Kisame isn't saying there is chance Naruto is out of his league or Itachi saying there is a chance Naruto could hurt him badly. Nor are they saying there is a chance Kurama could come out and these things could happen. Rather they are saying no matter, what, even if Naruto turns out to be a 12 yo kid w/ next to no Ninja skill and barely Genin level Kisame would still get WTFPWN'd and Itachi would be hurt really badly.  That would make Kisame Academy student level and Itachi low-Genin level according to you 




> Jiriaya > Itachi + Kisame + more backup" is so retarded that you should all feel bad for debating what you debate anyway, and that's coming from someone that argues how the Yata Mirror reflects the moon back at Rikūdo.



You have spent so much time trying to ignore the statement that you haven't tried to look at it for what it is. All that matters in that statement is J-man vs Itachi; as Kisame and back up were written off. Whether this is because Itachi underestimates Kisame & back up. Kisame was weaker in Part I & back up was just referring to any old fodder. Or Kisame + Back up are just getting sidelined for plot purposes same as Team Gai + Other Konoha Jonin did during Deva vs Naruto. It doesn't really matter because the author is writing them off for whatever reason and simply applying the statement to J-man vs Itachi. And in no way is it ridiculous that at bar minimum a sick Itachi would suffer heavy injury from fighting someone like Jiraiya. It is ridiculous and downright stupid to think that 12 Yo Naruto >>> Kisame and 12 yo Naruto ≅ Itachi, which is what we'd have to assume if we read the statement your way. It would also be stupid to ignore the thoughts of thee most prominent translators on Naruto-fan and the Japanese speakers themselves, on the issue..


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## Veracity (Nov 9, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Saying Orochimaru had assistance from Kabuto doesn't really matter since the other two sanin had assistance from Shizune and Naruto.
> 
> And neither Tsunade nor Jiraiya were as bad as Orochimaru, who not only couldn't move his fucking arms and thus had no ninjutsu, but also experienced terrible pain due to them.
> 
> As for getting his ass waxed, Tsunade couldn't touch him until he grabbed her. He was dodging her shit just fine all day long, and she's a CQC specialist while he has CQC as his weakest area.



Ha. Don't argue this you really can't.

Do you seriously wanna compare the damage Kabuto did to Shizune and Naruto ? Shizune got one shotted and Naruto was getting his ass waxed. Meanwhile Kabuto was pressuring Tsunade, completely saved Oros life(from Tsunade) and summoned Manda. If he hasn't summoned Manda, Oro would have been literally paneled by the summonings. So no, Kabuto was externely crucial to Oro where as Shizune and Naruto were basically useless.

I disagree. Jirayia was drugged to the point where his Justu were absolutely dreadful compared to his normal, and he couldn't even compete with Oro(who is about equal to him) due to this. Tsunade was completely riddled with a phobia for a long amount of the battle, she would have ended the fight in mere minutes if wasn't for the interference of Kabuto and her reluctancy to fight to begin with.  She was also 20 years out of practice and as a taijustu user this fucks her over. It was so bad that she could barely fight with her regeneration tech without her muscles almost instantly shredding and tearing apart. Oro on the other hand has snake like attributes and can comfortably fight like that. He was even going toe to tie with 4k Naruto only using his sword and mouth; pushing Naruto through the entire forest with pure neck strentgh alone. Other then EDO, what other Ninjustu does Oro have that will pressure Tsunade ?

He dodged her for literally a split second. After she got a hold of him she ended it in 3 blows. She had him on the fence the entire time. Even though Oro was chillaxing the entire time as Tsunade fought Kabuto and ended Manda.


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## Bonly (Nov 9, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Ha. Don't argue this you really can't.
> 
> Do you seriously wanna compare the damage Kabuto did to Shizune and Naruto ? Shizune got one shotted and Naruto was getting his ass waxed. Meanwhile Kabuto was pressuring Tsunade, completely saved Oros life(from Tsunade) and summoned Manda. If he hasn't summoned Manda, Oro would have been literally paneled by the summonings. So no, Kabuto was externely crucial to Oro where as Shizune and Naruto were basically useless.



Naruto was actually crucial for Tsunade during that fight as well, he wasn't useless. In fact if we go by your outlook on things then Naruto+Shizune weren't useless.

You mentioned how Kabuto saved Orochi's life for one reason why he was crucial. You can't possible say Naruto+Shizune were basically useless as they saved Tsunade's life. Shizune was the one who thought to bring Jiraiya and Naruto to where Tsunade was fighting Orochi. Kabuto went and talked about how he was getting ready to use her phobia against her and we saw what happened to her when blood came into play, well twice actually. So had Shizune not popped up with Jiraiya and Naruto, Tsunade would've been pretty much done for. 

Even after they arrived Tsunade was unable to move due to her phobia and thanks to Shizune Tsunade was not eaten/crushed by Orochi's snake attack as you see Shizune carrying Tsunade. Hell she could barely control herself to slap away Kabuto's hand and in two panels later Kabuto kicks her down like a dog and would've kept the beating up had Naruto not got in the way and do I even need to mention how Naruto is the only reason Tsunade got over her phobia which allowed the event, as you call it"He(Orochi) got his ass completely waxed when Tsunade became serious.". Take out Naruto and no "ass waxing" will be done. You also mention how Kabuto brought out Manda as a reason to say he was crucial but say Shizune and Naruto were basically useless but if you read above you'll see that had Shizune not brought Jiraiya and Naruto, things would've gotten quite bad for Tsunade.

The basic reasons for why you say Kabuto was crucial also applies to Shizune and Naruto bar the fighting on par with a Sannin in that battle reason, as I'll agree both Shizune and Naruto were pretty much out of their league overall. You could say Kabuto was more crucial for said reasons and I'd agree but based on the listed three you can't say Naruto+Shizune were basically useless as without those Tsunade wouldn't had made it as far as she did if things were the same without Shizune bringing help. Just as things changed thanks to Shizune and Naruto, things would've changed if Kabuto was taking away from Orochi


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## Wolfstein (Nov 9, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Basically this.
> 
> It doesn't matter if Kisame was talking about Jiraiya or the Kyuubi in that first instance. What matters is that after witnessing Jiraiya's strength firsthand, his opinion is that Itachi could have beaten him or at least achieve something fighting him.
> 
> ...




Either of the two? Kisame huh? 

Surely we aren't comparing Kisame to Jiraiya?... I don't think you wanna go down that road buddy.


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## Ersa (Nov 9, 2013)

Wolfstein said:


> Either of the two? Kisame huh?
> 
> Surely we aren't comparing Kisame to Jiraiya?... I don't think you wanna go down that road buddy.


Kisame can most definitely beat base Jiraiya. He's actually extremely underrated due to his losses against Gai (whom I might add is a horrible match-up for him). Insane chakra reserves, Samehada for stealing and healing, incredible durability and ridiculous shit like Daikodan and Waterdome means in a fight with Jiraiya, Kisame could very well take it if he traps Jiraiya in waterdome and lets his sharks loose on him. Jman needs Sage Mode to beat the sharkman.


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## Wolfstein (Nov 9, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Kisame can most definitely beat base Jiraiya. He's actually extremely underrated due to his losses against Gai (whom I might add is a horrible match-up for him). Insane chakra reserves, Samehada for stealing and healing, incredible durability and ridiculous shit like Daikodan and Waterdome means in a fight with Jiraiya, Kisame could very well take it if he traps Jiraiya in waterdome and lets his sharks loose on him. Jman needs Sage Mode to beat the sharkman.



Needs? Eh I'm not so sure of that one.  
Jiraiya had Kisame completely fucked in like a panel, and there was nothing he could do about it lol.

Even excluding SM, Jiraiya has a ton of skills to subdue and counter Kisame. Anyways I was referring to a general power level, including everything, not the outcome of a  decisive one on one battle.


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## Ersa (Nov 9, 2013)

Wolfstein said:


> Needs? Eh I'm not so sure of that one.
> Jiraiya had Kisame completely fucked in like a panel, and there was nothing he could do about it lol.
> 
> Even excluding SM, Jiraiya has a ton of skills to subdue and counter Kisame. Anyways I was referring to a general power level, including everything, not the outcome of a decisive one on one battle.


Do you have any proof that Kisame had nothing in the situation? Maybe flooding the toad stomach until it burst? This is how much water a casual 30% Kisame can output and still have plenty of chakra to spare. So full power Kisame could flood the stomach with 3-4x that amount of water, fuse with Samehada and have his sharks rip away at the stomach while he plays ping pong with Jiraiya.

The opposite is true as well, Kisame has plenty of firepower to off base Jiraiya. Kisame stacks up better against more opponents too so on a general power scale he's superior. Against people like V2 B, Tsunade he'd fare much better than base Jiraiya.

Nothing in the manga suggests Jiraiya can take down one of the stronger Akatsuki members at a fraction of his power. Gai needed 6 Gates to overpower 30% Kisame and 6th Gate Gai can arguably beat base Jiraiya.


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## Blaze Release (Nov 9, 2013)

lolerslolol said:


> Your opinion is shit.



I was pondering whether or not to ignore you, as i don't like doing much when it comes to tier/ranking threads. It is highly possible that my opinion might be shit, but even so i value it more so than anybody else's. I do believe you might be one of 3. Either:
1. A dupe
2. A troll
3. One of those members who get hurt when a fellow member doesn't value their character in the same light as them, therefore get all upset. Interesting you were claiming something along the lines of jiraiya being stronger than itachi or itachi being high jonins.

Firstly at the bare minimum they are equal.
Kisame already, before the confrontation, if we are to go by those claiming he was referring to jiraiya stated that Itachi can defeat him.

After the confrontation, he questioned why there was a need to flee, but also if he was to finish his sentence, he is clearly heavily hinting that itachi more so than himself can achieve the task.

Then we have orochimaru, who is seen as jiraiya's equal, acknowledge that itachi is stronger than himself. Orochimaru isn't the shinobi to utter such words if he didn't believe so. He has yet to say the same about jiraiya.

So from basically those 3 points at the very least they belong in the same tier. Ill continue though and explain why itachi is stronger, to be stronger doesn't really mean that the gap is so wide that they belong in different tiers though.

When majority argue for jiraiya the two main points i here are:
They died in the same arc
The have the same DB total stats.

The first point isn't really a point. Just because both died in the same arc they are equal?. If that is the case the same can be said about shinobi who died in the same chapter, perhaps minato and kushina are also equal.

Secondly jiraiya faced a shinobi who was stronger than him and got defeated, will showing all his might. Itachi faced a shinobi that he could have defeated if he wanted, while on his death bed. One shinobi no matter what, would have lost, the other actually if he wanted to continue living, atleast past that arc in which he died in. How two shinobi's dying in the same arc equals equality goes beyond me.

The second point is that because they have the same stats they are equal. Firstly everytime i have seen a member state that, a character has higher stats than another therefore they will win i always laugh. There has been shinobi who have lesser stats and canonically beaten shinobi's with higher stats, naruto beating neji is one of the many examples.

Stats shows the proficiency of a shinobi in each category and that is about it. It doesn't tell how strong a character is, therefore this "both of them have equal stats is bogus reasoning". But i see no reason not to play that game aswell.

If DB stats is what is used to state how strong or equal a shinobi is, then why not tell the full picture?. Either it doesn't favour your cause or you know full well that not even the DB backs them being equal. Its rather simple.

There are 8 categories in the DB. Both have a total stat of 35.5. On the surface they are 'equal'. In reality they are not. Out of the 8 categories both have an equal score for ninjutsu and taijutsu.

Jiraiya beats itachi in 2 categories. Stamina and Strength. Itachi beats Jiraiya in the remaining categories, 4 categories. Genjutsu, handseals, intelligence and speed.

If you look into the DB that people claim shows equality they are not equal. Not only does Itachi beat jiraiya in more categories, (double actually), the category in which they have over the other, Itachi's is far, far more valuable, unless you rank strength and stamina above genjutsu, handseals, speed and intelligence. I think not.


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## Turrin (Nov 9, 2013)

@Kyokan

I kind of doubt Part I Kisame was strong as Part II Killer B (or Gai) fight Kisame. 

1. In Part I Itachi remarks that Kisame would have a tough time with Part I Kakashi; Part II Killer B (or Gai) fight Kisame would decimate Part I Kakashi. 

2. When Part I Kisame is fighting Asuma, Asuma manages to out maneuver him in CQC and hit him with his Fuuton blades. This is in stark contrast to Kisame taking on the vastly more powerful CQC fighter in the form of V1 Killer B and being able to absorb all of his Raiton swords before they even came close to hitting him. 

3. Even in earlier parts of Part II Kisame complains about how powerful Roshi was and how he had to rest after taking him on. Looking at how strong Roshi was (even upgraded in the Edo Jin fight), it doesn't make much sense  for the Kisame that took down Killer B, to struggle that much with Roshi.

4. Kisame indicates he is out of both "sick" Itachi's and Jiraiya's league (these are specific statements too not just the one previously discussed in this thread). As many have remarked and I agree I'm not sure it makes sense for Kisame to be totally in a different league from those two as of the Killer B (Gai) Fight in Part II; though he's arguably still weaker a whole tier doesn't make much sense as of Part II Killer B fight and beyond.

So actually I think the manga suggests that Kisame steadily increased his power throughout the manga, rather than remaining static. And actually this makes senses, considering that Kisame becomes more powerful, the more chakra he absorbs. Back in Part I Akatsuki really wasn't hunting the Jinchuuriki yet, so Kisame did not have a chance to really hunt down Jin and absorb Bijuu chakra to become stronger (except KN0-chakra from Naruto, which alone would have been a significant boost). However during the time-skip and Part II, the Jinchuuriki hunt really began. We know Kisame at least caught one Jinchuuriki (Yonbi-Jin-Roshi), so he had the chance to absorb a significant amount of Chakra there. Also considering his reputation among akatsuki as being the best at catching his targets alive, we can assume he was sent after several other targets whether they be humans or the other 2 Jins/Bijuu that were caught before the time-skip. Than when he went up against Killer B he absorb a massive amount of Hachibi's and B's chakra, and again absorbs a ton of B's and Hachibi's chakra before taking on Gai. And one has to consider that when Samehada took away Kisame's massive chakra he looked like a frail weakling that even aoba thought he could solo; so we can safely assume that Kisame's body strength and pretty much his strength in general was all coming from chakra he absorbed.

So yeah it makes total sense that Kisame would have gotten significantly stronger since Part I.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> ​







> There is no consensus. Some translators argue one way, some argue another. It's ambiguous, just as it is in the viz translation, although the viz translators certainly thought the initial subject was Kurama..​



Yes there is a consensus. 'Consensus' is the direction in which something is 'generally' argued. 'Some' translators arguing another way does not falsify what I just said unless the amount of translators saying it is equal, and as far as I've seen it isn't.

I really don't believe Viz thought the subject was Naruto, but getting paid at the end of the week does not make them infallible; as I said in my previous post and you seemingly just conveniently skipped over- the pronoun that the argument is rooted within does not even exist in the Japanese version, while said pronoun is not necessarily an indicator of Naruto having been the initial subject over Jiraiya in the first place as a multitude of people forego subject change everyday and "babysitter" would have tipped Itachi off to a change in what "he"/"his" referred to regardless.

Replace each he and him with an actual name

_*"Even if you might be able to take Jiraiya on, I'm not sure about me...Jiraiya's in a different league."

"Yeah... if we faced off, we might end up killing each other. At the very least, we'd hurt each other badly…And even if I had more backup, it probably wouldn't change the outcome."

"It was great finally finding Naruto at the Ramen shop, but…Naruto's babysitter was one of the Three Great Shinobi of Konoha Legend. With Jiraiya as our enemy, even the titles of Konoha's Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist pale in comparison."​*_
 and the sentences still make sense. It isn't nonsensical for it to be about Jiraiya.

Additionally, I don't understand how you can call something 'ambiguous', go so far as to specify that the Viz itself is ambiguous and then claim that the translators 'certainly' thought anything. That's contradictory.



> Kisame actually said, "I can't believe this is the Nine Tails." They didn't really know what to expect from Naruto, and Itachi said as much afterward: 'at Naruto's current level, there's no worry.'​




They just saw him at the Ramen shop. They knew very well Naruto was a child.

If anything I'd say Kisame was simply musing himself with the host of the big bad Nine Tails having such a stupid and anti-climactic face. (ask Sasuke and the hotel manager) Surely you've had moments where you've been brooding over something without questioning the certainty of it.

Itachi's words afterward don't signify that this was newly acquired information, though. He could have already known what Naruto was capable of and simply been opting to get capturing him out of the way instead of procrastinating, but then after having met with an uncomfortable situation after not actually succeeding in preventing interruptions from the living legend Jiraiya, decided 'never mind, we still have time anyway'.



> They also said they didn't expect the trick to work on Jiriaya and didn't appear _at all_ worried when he showed up, nor were they impressed afterward.​



They wouldn't have attempted it unless they actually were concerned. Iirc, Kisame said that they didn't expect it to stall Jiraiya for too long, not that they never expected it to work period. I don't think the time Sasuke took up was part of their original plan either. If they didn't expect it and tried it anyway I'd take that as a sign that they were using every option they had to distract Jiraiya, and their (or at the very least Kisame's) worry afterward is apparent in their breaking a sweat from, alongside Kisame's rather apparent uncertainty in, their escape from _Gamaguchi Shibari_.



> Kisame asked him why he had to retreat despite earlier asking Itachi not use his Mangekyō. Itachi didn't deny he could beat Jiriaya, and simply said there was no rush given Naruto's level.​



Itachi never denied he could beat anyone.

Kisame's suggestion was rendered irrelevant because Itachi didn't heed it; with Kisame having seen that Itachi was going to use the Mangekyo in spite of his suggestion there wasn't a need for Itachi (who Kisame in the initial conversation thought was strong enough to take on Jiraiya) to retreat anymore. Kisame himself was still in over his head, however, and was saved from the guy in a different league by the similarly superior Itachi's Mangekyō Sharingan.

The person he didn't think retreat was necessary for was Itachi, and surely Kisame didn't need to retreat against a Naruto who couldn't build up any Chakra for his Jutsus. The only remaining answer for what could provoke a need for Kisame to retreat was...Jiraiya.



> 'Even with more Akatsuki back-up, herpa lerpa derpa, we would still only stalemate... even though I raped another Sannin when I was pre-teen.' That makes so much sense, Itachi.
> 
> In contrast, given Kurama's godly hype, particularly in part one, it stands to reason that Itachi would say that having more Akatsuki members with him wouldn't alter his chances.
> 
> ...



Aaaand the indeterminate number of backup could have easily been significantly weaker ninja such as the peons used for Shoten Itachi and Kisame, the Amegakure fodder Jiraiya interrogated, etc, or even Kabuto (since Sasori still seemed to think Kabuto worked for him). Their inability to alter the outcome would make a lot of sense when ninja such as Yamato and Sai _weren't even able to approach_ one of Orochimaru's battles because it was just that ridiculous. (Keep in mind that according to Itachi Kisame couldn't take on Kakashi without serious repercussions and a significant amount of time, while this Kakashi laughed at himself for believing he could even compete with a Sannin- a rather clear level difference if you ask me.) I'm not really sure how likely it is that Itachi could on such short notice call over other S-Rank Akatsuki pairs that would likely be busy locating their own Tailed Beasts.

But much more importantly than the above: Does Kisame even know the details of the Orochimaru incident or know of the incident itself? It's been suggested more than once that capturing someone alive is harder than trying to kill them, and Jiraiya would have been trying to kill them. Were Kisame unaware of the details of that incident (a la not only the incident itself but the amount of difficulty within that incident, Oro's intent, etc), it could have even been his basis for Itachi's potential to take Jiraiya on. Remember that someone like Kakashi who didn't know of the details of that incident at least initially thought that the reason Akatsuki had taken so long to move in on Naruto was because Jiraiya's presence discouraged them.

I also think that it stands to reason that the shark which gets stronger the more Chakra you throw at him and the man with eyes that make the Nine Tails your plaything wouldn't even need backup in the first place.


And at this point the reader had also been told that another Sannin such as Jiraiya could defeat Orochimaru.
The indirect reference to Sasuke being the only one capable of defeating Itachi does not lend credence to the subject having been Naruto instead of Jiraiya, because it excludes Naruto right alongside Jiraiya.
Kisame's 'uncertainty' (more like brooding if you ask me) doesn't imply that the subject had been Naruto. And after witnessing that Itachi was not going to pay him any heed and utilize the Mangekyo yet again anyway, he concluded that Itachi didn't need to retreat and asked him why he did so. That makes sense considering that he already thought Itachi would potentially be able to take Jiraiya on. Kisame simply said that Itachi didn't need to retreat, he did not say 'from Jiraiya, it's necessary with the Nine Tails'. Itachi's reasoning could just as easily have been interpreted as "We have no need to risk combating someone like Jiraiya because we've got quite a bit of time to wait for them to part before Naruto becomes troublesomely strong himself."


Way to misrepresent the fight. Orochimaru without arms alongside Kabuto (included by virtue of an armless Orochimaru's inability to even bring out Manda in the first place on his own) took on extremely rusty and tired out Tsunade alongside potently drugged base Jiraiya, then ran home with his tail between his legs...
In the translations I've read (which include the Viz) Orochimaru never said that there was a gap between Jiraiya and himself; he did, however, tell Jiraiya that he ought to give up even with them both having handicaps, though Jiraiya clearly disagreed. But I believe in the Three-Way-Deadlock anyway, which inherently gives each Sannin different strengths and weaknesses, so the relevance of a victor between those two concerning different parties is…negligible to me.
I honestly think that Itachi having been a kid was just a timeline screwup like Hashirama's uncertainty about Sakura being more of a monster than Toddlernade, since Itaachi is nearly Orochimaru's height and became Anbu captain at 13 while only joining Akatsuki after leaving the village, but whatever. There is no indication that Kisame is even aware of that event's details, which is what really matters.

I haven't missed your attempts at slipping in points trying to muddle the hype in its entirety to begin with, but you're straying off topic with said points because I'm only addressing the point of subject matter; I'm not concerned with the actual validity (and you can see in my initial post that I rate Itachi above Jiraiya anyway).

It wouldn't be the only time something like this happened. Remember Minato's "Back then…he saw right through every move I tried to make…"?


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## Alex Payne (Nov 9, 2013)

You people are funny. Long-ass debate about this old statement. First part of which is ambiguous. Last part of which was retconned(Sannin having superior reputation to Uchiha Clan). Partially made by double agent/liar with his own agenda. Ambiguous outdated retconned lie. Totally worth the effort.


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## Turrin (Nov 9, 2013)

alex payne said:


> You people are funny. Long-ass debate about this old statement. First part of which is ambiguous. Last part of which was retconned(Sannin having superior reputation to Uchiha Clan). Partially made by double agent/liar with his own agenda. Ambiguous outdated retconned lie. Totally worth the effort.


Alex Payne how is being a Sannin not greater hype than being an Uchiha. There are clearly fodder level Uchiha, so just being of the Uchiha-Clan does not put you anywhere close to a Sannin.


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 9, 2013)

I don't believe Jiraiya's as strong as Itachi. It doesn't make sense from a narrative stand point:

Kisame and Itachi didn't have any intel on Jiraiya aside from him being one of the legendary Sannin. 
The duo's comparative statements were derived *solely* from Sannin hype and Jiraiya being "one of the three".

The three sannin were depicted as being roughly around the same level multiple times:

Ebisu claims only another of the legendary three can fight Orochimaru(couldn't find scan)
Jiraiya says Kabuto is roughly Kakashi's level, and that only he can fight Orochimaru right now[1]
Kishi calls there battle a "three-way Deadlock" implying equality[2]

Itachi is depicted as being superior to that level, sannin level, through his interactions with Orochimaru, a sannin level individual. 

-
Keep in mind also, the _Sannin_ title only granted the akatsuki duo a "general ideal" of Jiraiya's power. 

Once Itachi and Kisame test the waters at the hotel, and subsequently get a better picture of Jiraiya's power, 
Kisame weighs the circumstance and claims Itachi shouldn't have to retreat[1].

So, basically, Kisame comes to one conclusion with limited information(only a title). 
He then obtains _even more information_(a title + a small altercation) and makes an _even more-informed conclusion_: 
retreat is not necessary, at least for his partner Itachi.

Strictly scholarly thinking, the more informed conclusion should be taken, unless there is a reason to not take the more informed conclusion.

-

Kisame was already powerful in Part I before absorbing anyone's chakras. His power doesn't hinge on samehada absorbing chakras throughout the years. Kisame's native chakra pool is comparable to a jinnchuriki's[1]

Even before ever fighting a jinnchuriki to absorb chakra, Neji though Kisame's 30% shoten clone had an overwhelming amount of chakra and throughout the years never saw anyone in Konoha with a comparable amount besides naruto[2]

Itachi probably thought Kakashi would hurt Kisame, which makes sense since Kakashi can be counted on to reliably feint and hurt plenty of people above his level. Kakuzu was clearly > Part II Kakashi but Kakashi still gave him a good amount of trouble.


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## Wolfstein (Nov 9, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Do you have any proof that Kisame had nothing in the situation? Maybe flooding the toad stomach until it burst? This is how much water a casual 30% Kisame can output and still have plenty of chakra to spare. So full power Kisame could flood the stomach with 3-4x that amount of water, fuse with Samehada and have his sharks rip away at the stomach while he plays ping pong with Jiraiya.
> 
> The opposite is true as well, Kisame has plenty of firepower to off base Jiraiya. Kisame stacks up better against more opponents too so on a general power scale he's superior. Against people like V2 B, Tsunade he'd fare much better than base Jiraiya.
> 
> Nothing in the manga suggests Jiraiya can take down one of the stronger Akatsuki members at a fraction of his power. Gai needed 6 Gates to overpower 30% Kisame, and 6th Gate Gai can arguably beat base Jiraiya.




>If things were that easy, I doubt Kisame would have let Itachi preform a technique that hastens his death. I'm about 80% sure Kisame would have had a bad day had Itachi not been there. 

> He sure does, but again I was referring to general power level. Also given the right situation Jiraiya can take down plenty of _high ranking _Akatsuki in base.

>Really? You think so? Jiraiya has shown some extremely nasty jutsu in base, I would reckon he makes more than half of the Akatsuki go all out before he even enters Sage Mode.  Also, Just because Gai utilized six gates, doesn't mean that they were necessary. 30% Kisame is no worse than the real deal. Kisame is a chakra monster and I bet 30% of his chakra was still more than enough for him to fight at normal standards.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Alex Payne how is being a Sannin not greater hype than being an Uchiha. There are clearly fodder level Uchiha, so just being of the Uchiha-Clan does not put you anywhere close to a Sannin.


Kisame was comparing _groups_. Uchiha Clan/Seven Swordsmen vs Sannin. As a group Uchiha Clan in Part 2 was placed well above Sannin's combined achievements. When people hear "Uchiha Clan" they will think about most prominent members or signature abilities. "Monster" Madara, Madara's brother, Shisui of the Mirage, Clan-Slayer Itachi, Mangekyo Sharingan, ability to control Kyubi, etc. That's what is going to come up when reputation is discussed. Chiyo blatantly states "one-on-one run away" as her advice after fighting "fodder Uchihas" as you call them. Sannin's rep is what? Kicking ass in one War+best medic? Not even close to P2 Uchihas.


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## Kai (Nov 9, 2013)

J-man is out of Kisame's league, and Itachi is out of J-man's league. The only event where Jiraiya can get a handle on Itachi is perhaps and only perhaps the situation where Itachi had already exercised his Mangekyo twice prior to Jiraiya activating his jutsu. We're also talking about a double agent whose motives for even coming to Konoha with Kisame were actually revealed to have to do with Danzo, who didn't even exist in Part 1 so what's the point of being so reliant on a hype that is clearly a front for other variables under the table?

Pretty obvious Itachi was the strongest revealed character in Part 1 bar Minato.


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## Wolfstein (Nov 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> J-man is out of Kisame's league, and Itachi is* out of J-man's league*. The only event where Jiraiya can get a handle on Itachi is perhaps and only perhaps the situation where Itachi had already exercised his Mangekyo twice prior to Jiraiya activating his jutsu. We're also talking about a double agent whose motives for even coming to Konoha with Kisame were actually revealed to have to do with Danzo, who didn't even exist in Part 1 so what's the point of being so reliant on a hype that is clearly a front for other variables under the table?
> 
> Pretty obvious Itachi was the strongest revealed character in Part 1 bar Minato.



I don't know about out of his league. I'm not sure if you know who we're talking about here... Being out of his league suggests Itachi flawless victory no diff roflmao stomps his ass, I hope you don't mean that?


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## Alex Payne (Nov 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> Pretty obvious Itachi was the strongest revealed character in Part 1 bar Minato.


Akatsuki Leader was revealed too. Kinda.


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## Kai (Nov 9, 2013)

Wolfstein said:


> I don't know about out of his league. I'm not sure if you know who we're talking about here... Being out of his league suggests Itachi flawless victory no diff roflmao stomps his ass, I hope you don't mean that?


No, but simply existing in a higher tier than another is what I would consider to be out of one's league. The amount of difficulty isn't really the first priority as a determinant for me.


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## Wolfstein (Nov 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> No, but simply existing in a higher tier than another is what I would consider to be out of one's league. The amount of difficulty isn't really the first priority as a determinant for me.



Ah, I understand. I assume you consider Itachi to be similar to Minato, who was also canonically above the Legendary Three. How much in terms of the gap? 1 tier, 2 tiers, god forbid three tiers!?!  

_For some reason I can't shake Itachi and Jiraiya being on the exact same level... _But I know where you're coming from because people say that Minato and Itachi were on the exact same level, which would indicate Jiraiya and Minato are around the same level, which is simply false.


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## Turrin (Nov 9, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Kisame was comparing _groups_. Uchiha Clan/Seven Swordsmen vs Sannin. As a group Uchiha Clan in Part 2 was placed well above Sannin's combined achievements


Kisame is talking about each person's respective title and the rep of that title:

"With him as our enemy, even the titles Konoha's Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist pale in comparison."

Itachi has the title of Uchiha Clan and Kisame has the title of Hidden Mist Swordsmen, but these titles pale in comparison to the title of Sannin. Which is true, since being a Sannin essentially means you are de-facto one of the strongest Ninja that has ever been produce by Konoha and able to qualify for the seat of Hokage. While on the other hand there are Hidden Mist Swordsmen and Uchiha that would be absolutely fodderized by a Sannin.




> When people hear "Uchiha Clan" they will think about most prominent members or signature abilities. "Monster" Madara, Madara's brother, Shisui of the Mirage, Clan-Slayer Itachi, Mangekyo Sharingan, ability to control Kyubi, etc. That's what is going to come up when reputation is discussed.


This is non-sense. People thought Madara's and Hashirama's powers were BS fairy-tales told to children, so there is no way Madara's powers were even being considered. 

And no person holding the title of Uchiha isn't going to automatically make people assume that person is going to be equal to the most skilled members of the clan. They are just going to think that person is dangerous as he possess a powerful Kekkai Genkai, but probably are more likely to assume that person is around the level of the Uchiha Police Force Cops Itachi owned bare handed in a matter of seconds, than think they are on par with the legendary Uchiha, just due to coming from the same clan.



> Chiyo blatantly states "one-on-one run away" as her advice after fighting "fodder Uchihas" as you call them. Sannin's rep is what? Kicking ass in one War+best medic? Not even close to P2 Uchihas.


Chiyo was talking in context of fighting against high order Sharingan-Genjutsu, like Itachi's. Some Uchiha aren't even skilled enough to activate Sharingan at all, let alone evolve it to three tome and have mastery of powerful Sharingan Genjutsu. Additionally Chiyo's definition of two (or more) was expanded to encompass clones and would also encompass summons. So Chiyo is in no way hyping anyone who just has the name of Uchiha beyond the title of the Sannin.



> Sannin's rep is what? Kicking ass in one War+best medic? Not even close to P2 Uchihas.


All of them being heavily considered for the title of Hokage. All of them having completed an absolute massive and impressive resume of missions. All of them being touted as war heroes and being praised by legendary ninja like Hanzo. People like Kakashi shitting his pants at the thought of fighting one in Part I, while he was more confident in his ability to fight Itachi, despite Itachi having more fame than just someone with the title of Uchiha. People not blinking an eye when a Sannin like Jiraiya says he can solo Suna. People like Ebisu saying that only one of the Sannin can beat another one of the Sannin.

DB hyping them like this:

"Jiraya's manly fighting valor, Orochimaru’s individual talents, Tsunade’s monster power and supreme knowledge of medical jutsus…During fights, their skills would increase thrice fold and create stories of great battlefield deeds. Especially, places of battle where the three fought together were their own stage. Stories of their battlefield deeds have evolved into legends. As there will no longer be days when the three will fight alongside each other, the flower of their legend is the more dazzling."

"Are the only ones who can fight against the three sannins the sannins themselves?"

No way is just having the title of being an Uchiha anywhere near the Sannin's hype.



Kai said:


> J-man is out of Kisame's league, and Itachi is out of J-man's league. The only event where Jiraiya can get a handle on Itachi is perhaps and only perhaps the situation where Itachi had already exercised his Mangekyo twice prior to Jiraiya activating his jutsu. We're also talking about a double agent whose motives for even coming to Konoha with Kisame were actually revealed to have to do with Danzo, who didn't even exist in Part 1 so what's the point of being so reliant on a hype that is clearly a front for other variables under the table?
> 
> Pretty obvious Itachi was the strongest revealed character in Part 1 bar Minato.


KAi there is no way a sick and dying Itachi that is prolonging his life with medicine is out of Jiriaya's league. In his fight with Sasuke these weaknesses allowed him to be hit by rather casual attacks compared to what Jiraiya's capable off and most of Jiriaya's Jutsu would severely injure if not kill Itachi if he was hit. Let's also not forget that Itachi due to illness using the MS at all result in severe injury to him caused by his own Jutsu. Itachi would not be able to take down a Sannin w/o suffering ridiculous injuries or possibly over straining himself to the point where he died as well.

Unless your referring to a healthy or Edo Itachi, in-which case I'd agree, tho whether healthy Itachi ever existed outside of Edo w/ the same skill and exp is another story entirely. 

As for Kisame in Part I he was out of their league, in Part II after absorbing massive amounts of Bijuu chakra he'd give at least Itachi a tough fight, in J-man's case Senjutsu may be too damming of a counter to chakra absorption, making J-man a bad match, up, but otherwise Kisame is not totally out of their league anymore. Again unless were talking Edo Itachi


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## Alex Payne (Nov 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> DB hyping them like this:
> 
> "Jiraya's manly fighting valor, Orochimaru?s individual talents, Tsunade?s monster power and supreme knowledge of medical jutsus?During fights, their skills would increase thrice fold and create stories of great battlefield deeds. Especially, places of battle where the three fought together were their own stage. Stories of their battlefield deeds have evolved into legends. As there will no longer be days when the three will fight alongside each other, the flower of their legend is the more dazzling."
> 
> "Are the only ones who can fight against the three sannins the sannins themselves?"





Turrin said:


> *"Are the only ones who can fight against the three sannins the sannins themselves?"*


Part 1, yeah. This is especially funny when you consider Sakumo's hype which was just after Part 1.


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 9, 2013)

Jiraiya isn't on the same level as Itachi and thus Minato. They are both substantially above him. Both Itachi and Minato have the potential to low-mid diff. most kage levels whereas Jiraiya would have a protracted struggle  against most of them.


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## Trojan (Nov 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> J-man is out of Kisame's league,* and Itachi is out of J-man's league*. The only event where Jiraiya can get a handle on Itachi is perhaps and only perhaps the situation where Itachi had already exercised his Mangekyo twice prior to Jiraiya activating his jutsu. We're also talking about a double agent whose motives for even coming to Konoha with Kisame were actually revealed to have to do with Danzo, who didn't even exist in Part 1 so what's the point of being so reliant on a hype that is clearly a front for other variables under the table?
> 
> Pretty obvious Itachi was the strongest revealed character in Part 1 bar Minato.



- and that's your opinion in which the manga disagree with, no? 
- Oh, and that's based on itachi's statement that he admitted to be inferior to jman, or just
your fanfiction? 

- Yeah, and how did that stop him from attacking kakashi, Kurnai, Sasuke, and Naruto? 
Jman is spy two, so he let itachi escape because he thought he could be useful? 

- No, that's your fanfction, the manga disagree. It's kinda fanny though that you're talking about
the portray whenever you like it, and throw it away whenever you feel so, wouldn't you agree? 

it was obvious that jman > itachi. Part 2 did not change anything as kishi made both of them
die in the same arc to power up Naruto and Sasuke in the SAME power that they had

Naruto got SM, and Sasuke got MS. And funny that it's stated SM Naruto > MS Sasuke
and we always see the SM user is the superior one

Jman > itachi
Naruto > Sasuke
Hashi > Madara
Kabuto > itachi 

and even in the databook kishi gave BOTH 35.5 and it worth to mention that in their base state
so even without SM Jman = itachi. 

Sorry, if that was harsh I felt I need to say that. 
Although you are mostly logical, but when it comes to portray you take what you like and throw
what you don't like. ,_,


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## Turrin (Nov 9, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Part 1, yeah. This is especially funny when you consider Sakumo's hype which was just after Part 1.


What does Sakamo matter? His fame is also far above that of your average Uchiha as well. Your trying to make this into a Part I thing, but nothing has changed in Part II, the Sannin are still individually far above the level you'd expect from your average Uchiha. From what was shown in Part I & Part II if given the choice between fighting an Uchiha whose name is randomly pulled out of a hat, which contains all the names of any Uchiha to ever live, and having to face 1 of the Sannin; for most ninja it would be much more favorable to take their chance with whatever Uchiha whose name was pulled out of the hat. Yeah you might get someone like Madara and be fucked worse than against a Sannin, but you might also get someone like Chuunin Obito or Gennin Sasuke who'd you'd own the shit out w/ no danger at all. However most likely you wouldn't get ether, you'd probably get an average Uchiha like the cops that Itachi owned the hell out of and most Ninja would have a much better chance against than a Sannin. 

This is really not rocket science, it's a pretty obvious conclusion based on simple logic, that simply being an Uchiha whether by Part I or Part II standards is not nearly as threatening as being a Sannin.



Lawrence777 said:


> Jiraiya isn't on the same level as Itachi and thus Minato. They are both substantially above him. Both Itachi and Minato have the potential to low-mid diff. most kage levels whereas Jiraiya would have a protracted struggle  against most of them.


Minato and Itachi have never been equals. When they were both living, both had hax Jutsu, were geniuses, and acted as precursors to Naruto and Sasuke, but Itachi was dying from an illness and was going blind from his Dojutsu. These handicaps weakened him to the point where Hebi Sasuke was landing attacks on him and he was suffering serious injury to his eyesight, ultimately even death from utilizing his Jutsu. Minato never had this problem or weakness. If we go into the realm of Edos Itachi looses these weaknesses, but Minato once again is distinguished as well above him since he gains the massive power boost of Kyuubi-Chakra. 

Out of all the Hokages Itachi is more comparable to Hiruzen, as Hiruzen had the handicap of Old-Age during life that made him weak, has a-lot of hype behind how he would be w/o this handicap, and as an Edo this handicap may be mostly (or partially removed), tho we have to see more from him.  Outside of Kages Itachi is also very comparable to Kakashi, in the sense that both have very hax powers, but their usage of them comes at high costs, and in the war arc due to Edo Buffs and Kyuubi-Chakra(Medical ninjutsu too) this isn't an issue for them. Or someone like Kimimaro w/ his illness. 

Just to be clear no saying all these Ninja are equal in strength to Itachi, just saying they fit into the same archetype as Itachi as having major handicaps that hold them back from being much stronger, an archetype Minato does not fall into.


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## Trojan (Nov 9, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Jiraiya isn't on the same level as Itachi and thus Minato. They are both substantially above him. Both Itachi and Minato have the potential to low-mid diff. most kage levels whereas Jiraiya would have a protracted struggle  against most of them.



Was there a singe time in the manga that compared itachi to Minato? No? 
because what I remember that was 2 time that show itachi is around the sannin level

1- he's weaker than Jman as he admitted
2- he's stronger than oro as oro admitted 

Or is the manga differ? @.@


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 9, 2013)

I didn't say they were compared.

I'm not talking about hype or being paralleled.

I'm saying if they fought the same high level targets they would likely have similar amounts of difficulty most of the time. 
Minato'd win against most with hiraishin and Itachi would win against most with Tsukiyomi. 

They wouldn't be brought to the brink by characters that would give Jiraiya a difficult fight. Naruto(Kishimoto) told Killer Bee that Itachi could oneshot him, and Killer Bee is ->99% of kage .
edit: I'd actually say KB is on the same tier as Itachi/Minato, although Itachi's a horrible matchup for him.


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## Trojan (Nov 9, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> I didn't say they were compared.
> 
> I'm not talking about hype or being paralleled.
> 
> ...



- Is that based on the manga and the databook, or fanfiction? Because there is a different! 
- So, itachi (Kishimoto) told Kisame that Jman can defeat both of them. 
- Except Minato was fighting both A & B at the same time. 

Edit: I don't know why it's funny to debate in this topic. lol
it's feel good when you have a clear proof and the others struggle against it. lol


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## Kai (Nov 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> KAi there is no way a sick and dying Itachi that is prolonging his life with medicine is out of Jiriaya's league. In his fight with Sasuke these weaknesses allowed him to be hit by rather casual attacks compared to what Jiraiya's capable off and most of Jiriaya's Jutsu would severely injure if not kill Itachi if he was hit. Let's also not forget that Itachi due to illness using the MS at all result in severe injury to him caused by his own Jutsu.


I'm almost certain that Itachi was physically healthier fighting Kakashi and encountering Jiraiya than when he fought Sasuke three years later. 

Itachi was already near the end of his life expectancy by the time he fought Sasuke and not many people take that into consideration.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Itachi would not be able to take down a Sannin w/o suffering ridiculous injuries or possibly over straining himself to the point where he died as well.


I have no issue with the difficulty in which you say it would be done, but it _is_ canon that Itachi is more powerful than a member of the Sannin.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> As for Kisame in Part I he was out of their league, in Part II after absorbing massive amounts of Bijuu chakra he'd give at least Itachi a tough fight, in J-man's case Senjutsu may be too damming of a counter to chakra absorption, *making J-man a bad match, up*, but otherwise Kisame is not totally out of their league anymore. Again unless were talking Edo Itachi


I know what you're trying to say, but Kisame "after absorbing massive amounts of bijuu chakra" is an outlier of his general level and doesn't fully express your stance when talking about Itachi or J-man — but of course I don't deny match ups are the greatest predictor of what determines a tough fight or not.

Kisame self proclaimed his abilities to be the greatest for hunting jinchuuriki. It also makes for the common Bee-Kisame-Gai situation when discussing match ups where most people rate the three in completely separate tiers.


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## Santoryu (Nov 9, 2013)

The correct list:

Tier 1
Minato (Not Edo)
Kakashi
Itachi/Tobirama
Gai (Final gate taken into consideration)

I have no idea where Hiruzen should be placed?


The guys listed above are a cut above the rest; the rest each have their own advantages and disadvantages, and are generally around the same level, albeit the likes of Tsunade and Mei are noticeably inferior to the likes of Onoki in terms of combat.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Nov 9, 2013)

@Elia
Kisame(Kishimoto) later thought Itachi could indeed defeat Jiraiya and questioned why retreat was necessary. 
So hype wise, it was Jiraiya >= Itachi then became Itachi > Jiraiya.

You didn't disagree with me concerning Itachi being able to oneshot most high tiers with Tsukiyomi. That's basically my point. Minato can bamflash and Itachi can tsukiyomi plenty of high tiers before showing the rest of their arsenal. 

Being able to do that imo makes them superior to jiraiya whom would have a protracted altercation with the same people.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> What does Sakamo matter? His fame is also far above that of your average Uchiha as well. Your trying to make this into a Part I thing, but nothing has changed in Part II, the Sannin are still individually far above the level you'd expect from your average Uchiha. From what was shown in Part I & Part II if given the choice between fighting an Uchiha whose name is randomly pulled out of a hat, which contains all the names of any Uchiha to ever live, and having to face 1 of the Sannin; for most ninja it would be much more favorable to take their chance with whatever Uchiha whose name was pulled out of the hat. Yeah you might get someone like Madara and be fucked worse than against a Sannin, but you might also get someone like Chuunin Obito or Gennin Sasuke who'd you'd own the shit out w/ no danger at all. However most likely you wouldn't get ether, you'd probably get an average Uchiha like the cops that Itachi owned the hell out of and most Ninja would have a much better chance against than a Sannin.
> 
> This is really not rocket science, it's a pretty obvious conclusion based on simple logic, that simply being an Uchiha whether by Part I or Part II standards is not nearly as threatening as being a Sannin.


Sakumo simply contradicts your "only Sannin can beat Sannin" hype. And he was in the same DB iirc.  

Sannin = Team of 3 exceptional people of Kage-lvl
Uchiha = Clan of exceptional people that ranges from "Monster from Hell" to "1-on-1 you should run" nameless mooks. Who can control Biju. 

You ask people: you'd rather face one of the Sannin or one of them Uchihas(and you could get _any_ widely known Uchiha - Madara, Shisui, etc). And they are going to think *long and hard* about it. 


And you are missing who was that - who used reputation argument in discussion. Kisame. Same guy who met "Madara", who knows about Itachi's general level and who briefly worked with Orochimaru. Why would he bring "reputation" up if it was mostly about nameless Uchiha mooks like you are trying to prove? Same people Itachi effortlessly killed. It doesn't make sense at all at this point. Guy knows about Madara, about Itachi. Unless it was some inside joke:

Kisame "Knows about Madara" Hoshigaki tells Itachi "owned Orochimaru 5 years ago" Uchiha:

- Sannins are pretty badass, eh. More badass than Uchihas 
- Yeah
- (lol)
- (lol)


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## Trojan (Nov 9, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> @Elia
> Kisame(Kishimoto) later thought Itachi could indeed defeat Jiraiya and questioned why retreat was necessary.
> So hype wise, it was Jiraiya >= Itachi then became Itachi > Jiraiya.
> 
> ...



- Kisame never completed his sentence in the first place, how do you know that he did not mean
that itachi could have killed Sasuke, since he was fighting Sasuke obviously and not Jman? 

- Fanfiction. 

- That's nonsense IMO, now do you agree that itachi is stronger than hashi for example
because hashi has nothing against Tsukiyomi?

- lol, no, just no. Jman oneshot Konan who almost killed obito, he almost oneshot Kisame who
almost defeated B. he Also, put Pain under his genjutsu and even pain said he wouldn't have won without his secret. Obito came later and said that Jman DESERVE ALL OF HIS REPUTATION.


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## Turrin (Nov 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> I'm almost certain that Itachi was physically healthier fighting Kakashi and encountering Jiraiya than when he fought Sasuke three years later.
> 
> Itachi was already near the end of his life expectancy by the time he fought Sasuke and not many people take that into consideration.
> .


He probably was in better condition, but how much better of a condition was he really in? In terms of eyesight there is little indication that he had been using MS frequently over the time-skip to the point where his eyes would have become significantly more blind than in Part I. Akatsuki did not make many moves to capture Jinchuuriki over the time-skip and we know Itachi still didn't capture a Jinchuuriki himself nor aid Kisame in the capture of Roshi. Other than the Jin, there is really no other enemies that Akatsuki has been indicated to have fought that would require Itachi to utilize MS. In Part II he of course wasn't shown using MS until the Sasuke fight or maybe 1 time before that if he prepped Tensha Fuuin Amaterasu in advance. So it's highly unlikely that Itachi's eyesight degraded much over the time-skip, meaning his eyesight would have already been pretty bad in Part I; worse at the time he was to face J-man since he had just recently previously used MS twice that day.

In terms of health we didn't see Itachi spitting up blood in Part I, but than again in Part I he never used MS as extensively as he did in the Hebi Sasuke fight, where he was using 2 Amaterasu consecutively; after already using Tsukuyomi shortly before. Itachi did however say in Part I that he needed to rest after using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. So the toll on his body using MS Jutsu is still indicated to be quite heavy in Part I. 

So I really see no indication that Itachi was significantly more handicapped in Part II than in Part I. If --- and he probably was --  only slightly less handicapped, that isn't really going to make a difference for the purpose of this discussion.



> I have no issue with the difficulty in which you say it would be done, but it is canon that Itachi is more powerful than a member of the Sannin.


It's cannon that Itachi is stronger than an armless Orochimaru, I personally think that he'd beat Part I Orochimaru in general even before he lost his arms, due to portrayal and abilities, but all the statements tell us is that armless Orochimaru stands no chance against Itachi

But ether way it really doesn't apply to Jiriaya who is a totally different shinobi. Itachi is well suited to taking down Orochimaru and that is why I think he'd beat Part I Orochimaru even w/ his arms (Part II armed Orochimaru would probably beat him due to Edo Tensei though that is nether here nor there). I do not think a sick and dying Itachi is more powerful than Jiriaya. Itachi's skill level may -- and probably is -- suppose to be seen as higher than Jiriaya's, but that is the only reason he's able to compete with Jiriaya while suffering the major handicaps of being half blind and one foot in the grave; not why he'd be more powerful despite these handicaps. Simply put even if Itachi beat Jiriaya, which i'm not sure he would w/ his handicaps, doing so at high diff and at the cost of permanently weakening himself significantly indicates they are near the same level power-wise and any small difference is splitting hairs. Like wise I'd put Tsunade and Part I Orochimaru around that same level, though in Itachi may take down Orochi w/ less difficulty due to stylistic differences in fighting styles and Itachi being a self expressed good counter to Orochimaru's Jutsu.



> know what you're trying to say, but Kisame "after absorbing massive amounts of bijuu chakra" is an outlier of his general level and doesn't fully express your stance when talking about Itachi or J-man — but of course I don't deny match ups are the greatest predictor of what determines a tough fight or not.
> 
> Kisame self proclaimed his abilities to be the greatest for hunting jinchuuriki. It also makes for the common Bee-Kisame-Gai situation when discussing match ups where most people rate the three in completely separate tiers.


It's only an outlier of his general level if you believe Kisame throws away the chakra he's absorbed after every match, which I do not think is the case. I think Kisame's high Chakra levels are not his own but totally a result of chakra absorbing and the same is true of his strength. This is why when Samehada takes away most of Kisame's chakra he ends up in this emaciated state, which I think is indicated to be Kisame's true form w/o absorbed Chakra. 

One has to remember that even after most of B's chakra was absorb B wasn't suddenly reduced to emaciated physical state, he just had less chakra. Kisame's physical transformation on the other hand indicates chakra is serving a much different purpose for him, than in normal cases. 

So I think Kisame stores the chakra he has absorbed and because of that becomes stronger after every match permanently, unless forced to waste all that chakra on a successive match w/o reclaiming more chakra. And all this practice of devouring chakra has also enhanced his and samehada's chakra absorption abilities.

Now this is somewhat theoretical, but I believe at the same time highly substantiated by the manga. In part I Kisame was indicated to have a rough time with Part I Kakashi, who he'd stomp in Part II, and he also was unable to absorb Asuma's Fuuton blade attack in time to avoid being hit, while in Part II he is casually absorbing B's Raiton swords no problem, despite B's superior speed to Asuma. Heck he even indicates he struggled with Roshi early in Part II, but is fairly casually taking down V1/V2 B later in Part II.

The guy must have gotten stronger significantly or this doesn't make sense.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Nov 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> ​
> 
> 
> There is no consensus. Some translators argue one way, some argue another. It's ambiguous, just as it is in the viz translation, although the viz translators certainly thought the initial subject was Kurama..​
> ...



Lol at this Itachinese 

* Orochimaru said taking over Itachi's body was an impossible dream , as he was trying to take his body not defeat him in combat , as attaining an Uchiha Body Was his DREAM, besides at that point  he was without the usage of jutsu

* Really you don't think there are ninja stronger than Hebi/MS Sasuke ?, so Madara, Minato, Jubbito would have no shot against Itachi, and to my knowledge he was implying that Sasuke needed the MS to fight 


* Itachi was a genius with Intel on every ninja in konoha , this guy even knew Minato was Naruto's father he knew damn near everything there was to know about Naruto, the guy only came to the village to make sure Danzo fulfilled his promise , so you're telling me Itachi of all people didn't know how strong Naruto was at the current moment.


* What does that have to do with anything it actually furthers the argument that Itachi because of his illness/low stamina needed to be cautious with his jutsu 

* Kisame didn't know as much as Itachi, we even learn in the Kabuto fight he knew of Senjutsu 

* He was fodderizing Naruto way into pt 2 , you think he though of Naruto as a threat at 12 yrs old, Itachi was assigned the 9 tails primarily because of is intel.

* and to my knowledge got his ass kicked by Tsunade, Jiriyia was poisoned and Orochimaru also had help from Kabuto so it was more like 

Rusty Tsunade + Poisneded Jiriyia vs Armless Orochimaru + Kabuto if not for Kabuto he wouldn't have been able to summon Manda and would've been stomped 


*That was just more boasting by Orochimaru and when speaking to Jiriyia he's talking about genius / talent as they had their argument about what makes a ninja great Orochimaru looks down upon who Jiriyia is as a ninja , same way he did with Naruto, and in actuality we never saw how he gauged himself against Itachi in a head to head battle.


* No he wasn't he was just shown countered Orochimaru's body transfer technique , we didn't even see the full out battle or do you think Orochimaru cn be defeated by slicing off his arm.


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 9, 2013)

Elia,


> Kisame never completed his sentence in the first place, how do you know that he did not mean
> that itachi could have killed Sasuke, since he was fighting Sasuke obviously and not Jman?


Kisame said retreat for itachi wasn't necessary. The sum total of the variables they left behind did not equate to Itachi needing to retreat. "Retreat, for Itachi, is not necessary" period basically, including Jiraiya. 

Hashi is a pretty unfair example, don't you think? Mind you, I'm pretty sure his Byakuguo would heal mental damage anyway. Itachi can oneshot most "normal" high tiers with tsukiyomi. 

I'm not sure about some parts of the rest of your statement. Jiraiyas a good deal more powerful than Konan so its not surprising he low diffed her. It'd be another thing if he could do that to any of the kages.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> He probably was in better condition, but how much better of a condition was he really in? In terms of eyesight there is little indication that he had been using MS frequently over the time-skip to the point where his eyes would have become significantly more blind than in Part I. Akatsuki did not make many moves to capture Jinchuuriki over the time-skip and we know Itachi still didn't capture a Jinchuuriki himself nor aid Kisame in the capture of Roshi. Other than the Jin, there is really no other enemies that Akatsuki has been indicated to have fought that would require Itachi to utilize MS. In Part II he of course wasn't shown using MS until the Sasuke fight or maybe 1 time before that if he prepped Tensha Fuuin Amaterasu in advance. So it's highly unlikely that Itachi's eyesight degraded much over the time-skip, meaning his eyesight would have already been pretty bad in Part I; worse at the time he was to face J-man since he had just recently previously used MS twice that day.
> 
> In terms of health we didn't see Itachi spitting up blood in Part I, but than again in Part I he never used MS as extensively as he did in the Hebi Sasuke fight, where he was using 2 Amaterasu consecutively; after already using Tsukuyomi shortly before. Itachi did however say in Part I that he needed to rest after using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. So the toll on his body using MS Jutsu is still indicated to be quite heavy in Part I.
> 
> ...





Actually in my opinion Orochimaru's portrayal was even above the likes of Itachi

he was said that it took Minato to face him , he could take down a small nation alone , Hiruzen who was stronger than all of the Gokage in old age was stated to needed to be in his prime to compete.

We learn that Danzo after the enhancements was still weaker than Prime Hiruzen 

Then in the Kabuto fight we learn that Orochimaru had access to many ninjas DNA thru experiments he could've prepped himself to defeat any ninja in combat if he so saw fit, but with him it was all about attaining the powers of Rikudo Sennin meaningless one on one battles mean nothing to him, we haven't seen him going all out in combat, 

When he compared himself to Itachi he is armless and we don't know if he even compared himself to Itachi in combat prowess just in trying to take over his body


I think if anything Orochimaru was closer to the legendary Hokages, like Prime Hiruzen and Minato in combat prowess until he lost use of his jutsu , 


Itachi was also weaker than Jiriyia as well but not by a great margin, We saw that Kabuto a Senjutsu user give him a hard time, he has sound genjutsu which was said to nullify Susanoo, then on top of that Itachi is ill with low stamina , that's why he stated at best he could stalemate , that's if everything is executed perfectly with no room for mistakes, we saw his fight against Hebi Sasuke and at that level it wasn't the case.

He would defeat Tsunade in overall combat , although she could give him difficulty 

the major problem with Sick Itachi vs the Sannin is that their all so damn hard to kill and that's a problem for someone with Itachi's low stamina and illness where he would want to win the fight quickly 


I see it as Orochimaru/Base Minato> Sick Itachi/Jiriyia> Tsunade/Old Hiruzen


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## Turrin (Nov 9, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Sakumo simply contradicts your "only Sannin can beat Sannin" hype. And he was in the same DB iirc.
> 
> Sannin = Team of 3 exceptional people of Kage-lvl
> Uchiha = Clan of exceptional people that ranges from "Monster from Hell" to "1-on-1 you should run" nameless mooks. Who can control Biju.
> ...


I'm talking about how the Sannin rep is percieved by Ninja's in the Naruto world, not whether it is true. Obviously it is not as Obito and Pain would beat any single Sannin and Itachi even half dead seemed to think he could at least force a draw with J-man. Perception is all the matters here because that is what Kisame is talking about.

And no is going to think that long about the decision between Sannin or random Uchiha. The chance of getting Madara is 1 out of hundreds if not thousands, versus being guaranteed to get a ninja that is out of most ninja in the Naruto world's league. In the case of Shisui we don't even know if he's stronger than a Sannin and if he is it would almost certainly be when having access to his MS, rather than when its during one of it's 10 Year recharges after using Koto or before he even developed MS. Hell I'd take my odds on facing Shisui betting on him being recharging, before he developed MS or before he even gained MS, before I'd take my chances with one of the Sannin. With Izuna again we don't know if he was more powerful than a Sannin, but even assuming he was, that would still put the tally up to 2 out of hundreds or thousands of other Uchiha who are likely not stronger than the Sannin. 

Kisame was bring up J-man's superior fame in regards to their own in response to Itachi's statement about how he'd perform against.

In essence the context of the convo was essentially like this:

Kisame "Hey bro this guy is better than me, but you could take him own, while I nab the Jin bro" 
Itachi, "Nah brah if I took him on it would be bad, as even if I could win, which i'm not sure of, than I would get injured badly"
Kisame, "Well I guess that's to be expect that dude is super famous as one of the legendary three, who makes other famous title look poor in comparison bro"
Itachi, "Don't worry brah we can just distract him with some strange, while we grab the Jin, and than we won't have to deal with any of that brah."
Kisame, "Alright sounds good bro"


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## Trojan (Nov 9, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Elia,
> Kisame said retreat for itachi wasn't necessary. The sum total of the variables they left behind did not equate to Itachi needing to retreat. "Retreat, for Itachi, is not necessary" period basically, including Jiraiya.
> 
> Hashi is a pretty unfair example, don't you think? Mind you, I'm pretty sure his Byakuguo would heal mental damage anyway. Itachi can oneshot most "normal" high tiers with tsukiyomi.
> ...



- again that does not prove anything! I even asked takl back then about the Japanese script 
and he said what kisame meant is unknown/not clear ...etc. You can't take this half sentence and make it stronger than a clear statement that jman > itachi. Or did itachi became stronger all of sudden? Also, itachi admitted that he couldn't fight more and turned his MS off. 

- No, I think it's the same thing, itachi's fans say that about every character, but when it comes
to Hashi they automatically know how is their way of judgment is nonsense! By that's same logical

Jman is way out of Hashi's and Madara's league. Why? What they can do against the Frog Song? Right, they can do NOTHING, does that make Jman stronger than them? No.

The same with itachi, having a strong jutsu that can one shot the other opponent does not make you stronger than them. Base Minato also needs one touch and that's it, he can f*** any one up at anytime he wants after 1 touch! Yet, you don't see people making base Minato the strongest! 

- You said itachi can one shot B, no? And you stated that B is in the same level as Minato and itachi. 

I'm just saying that's A>B>C logical. @.@
Kishi always compare Jman to the Akatsuki

1- he made him out of Kisame's league.
2- he made him stronger than itachi. (wether his fans like or not, it's reality)
3- he made him one shot Konan
4- he made Pain state that without his secret he wouldn't have won
*5- he made obito state that Jman worth his reputation *
6- IIRC he made zetsu point out that it took way too long even from pain who's stronger than itachi. 

and even defeat 4tails Naruto in base even though he did not want to hurt him!
he made Minato state that Jman is the best he knows

it's just ridiculous how people underrate him way too much, to make their beloved itachi
better, I suppose they just can't face reality, so they want to stay in their dreams in MEP. :ho

Anyway, I just got so tired. The truth is clear to anyone who seeks the truth, and the illusion
of itachi being stronger is still there for those who cant face reality. Fair enough. @.@


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## Rain (Nov 9, 2013)

Elia said:


> - again that does not prove anything! I even asked takl back then about the Japanese script
> and he said what kisame meant is unknown/not clear ...etc. You can't take this half sentence and make it stronger than a clear statement that jman > itachi. Or did itachi became stronger all of sudden? Also, itachi admitted that he couldn't fight more and turned his MS off.
> 
> - No, I think it's the same thing, itachi's fans say that about every character, but when it comes
> ...


Shut the fuck up.


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## Lawrence777 (Nov 9, 2013)

^ was that necessary?
Kisame making a half statement is irrelevant. 
We got the message, Itachi did not need to retreat. 
Whatever was behind him, anything and everything that was behind him, retreating from it wasn't necessary. Itachi could've _dealt_ with it.

I don't have time to reply to a million separate points lol. 
I don't think you disagree with me: Itachi can indeed oneshot high tiers with tsukiyomi.

If Itachi can defeat them with trickery, feints, and a Tsukiyomi without resorting to the other two mangekyou jutsu then I consider that a relatively low amount of difficulty(for him). Although to be fair even one tsukiyomi constitutes Itachi permanently damaging his eye sight. 

If you get ended by 1 MS jutsu though when Itachi can still manage 3 more + some Susanoo, that's low difficulty imo, and something Jiraiya can't do to most Kage.  That's why you usually don't see Itachi vs 1 average kage threads.

I think your caught up in how Jiraiya would do against Itachi in a direct battle, rather than how Jiraiya would do "in general" against a host of high tier shinobi. I am strictly referring to the latter, and Itachi is higher in that regard(although I think he'd beat Jiraiya 1v1 anyway).


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## Trojan (Nov 9, 2013)

Rain said:


> Shut the fuck up.





that's might make you calm down. @.@


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## Sadgoob (Nov 9, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:
			
		

> * Orochimaru said taking over Itachi's body was an impossible dream , as he was trying to take his body not defeat him in combat , as attaining an Uchiha Body Was his DREAM, besides at that point  he was without the usage of jutsu



The context was getting Itachi to help with the invasion, and thus implying using Itachi as an Edo Tensei. However, that was an impossible dream because Itachi was stronger than him.​


			
				Eliyua23 said:
			
		

> * Really you don't think there are ninja stronger than Hebi/MS Sasuke ?, so Madara, Minato, Jubbito would have no shot against Itachi, and to my knowledge he was implying that Sasuke needed the MS to fight



In part one, Itachi said that only Sharingan users with his blood could possibly defeat him. None of those ninja incarnations existed at the time. It contradicts the alleged Jiraiya hype.​


			
				Eliyua23 said:
			
		

> * Itachi was a genius with Intel on every ninja in konoha , this guy even knew Minato was Naruto's father he knew damn near everything there was to know about Naruto, the guy only came to the village to make sure Danzo fulfilled his promise , so you're telling me Itachi of all people didn't know how strong Naruto was at the current moment.



You're missing the point. Itachi knew many things that Kisame didn't, but he didn't tell them to Akatsuki because Itachi's perogative wasn't to help Akatsuki collect the tailed beasts.​



FlamingRain said:


> Yes there is a consensus. 'Consensus' is the direction in which something is 'generally' argued. 'Some' translators arguing another way does not falsify what I just said unless the amount of translators saying it is equal, and as far as I've seen it isn't.
> 
> I really don't believe Viz thought the subject was Naruto, but getting paid at the end of the week does not make them infallible



Getting paid as professionals to translate the subject gives them authority on the subject being translated, so your and Turrin's ridiculous notion of fan-translator's "consensus" is moot.​


FlamingRain said:


> as I said in my previous post and you seemingly just conveniently skipped over- the pronoun that the argument is rooted within does not even exist in the Japanese version



Do you know why I skipped over it? Because I'm not a Japanese translator and neither are you. Fan translators argue either way, and the professionals translated the viz as they did.​


FlamingRain said:


> and the sentences still make sense. It isn't nonsensical for it to be about Jiraiya.



Yes, it is. If you read the chapter and think that they behaved like Jiriaya was capable of taking them both down with more Akatsuki backup, then yes, it is absolutely nonsensical. 



Itachi clearly thinks Jiraiya can take him, Kisame, and Akatsuki.



Kisame thinks so too; I can tell. Look how frightened he is now.



You can tell how worried Itachi is about Jiraiya here.



Here, both Akatsuki don't give a darn about Jiraiya.



Kisame definitely thought Itachi had 50/50 chances against Jiriaya.



Huh, it seems like Naruto *was* the variable after all.



But it's not like 12-year-olds can use bijū powers, amirite Turrin?



So clearly they were saying Jiraiya, not this, could take on Akatsuki. Even though Akatsuki knew Itachi kicked a Sannin's ass as a kid, and mid-level members like Deidara were confident they could kill him.
​


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## Turrin (Nov 9, 2013)

I'm 99% sure Shonensuki and Gottheim (& other Naruto-fan translators) invested more time into examining that line of dialog than Viz-translators did. Being paid means you have to put out a good trans, but it also means you are getting paid to translate a shit ton of other things at the same time. Shonensuki and Gottheim literally have discussed and re-examined that dialog exchange over the course of years. Also pretty sure Shosensuki or Gottheim (can't remember which one or if it's both) have worked as translators professionally anyway. Plus on-top of that you have the Japanese people interpreting the line as Jiriaya, so your saying Japanese people are wrong about how to interpret their own language. 

Not to mention it's not like the Viz even supports your argument whatsoever, it still requires use to believe Itachi was certain he'd be injured badly fighting a 12 yo and Kisame was certain a 12 yo was out of his league, which is just stupid, and makes far more sense applying to Jiriaya, than 12 yo Naruto.

But meh, I shouldn't even bother your probably just trolling anyway.

Edit: Also I studied 2 semester of japanese and the pronoun thing is true, plus Shonensuki also states the pronoun thing is true, so you don't need to take my word for it. You get a Viz translator in here to say otherwise and I'll believe it, but other than I'll stick with what Shonensuki (& my Japanese teacher, who was Japanese, said).


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## Baroxio (Nov 9, 2013)

Itachi didn't even give a darn that Jiraiya was there. 

He calmly turned his back on him and went to wail on Sasuke for a good while, and then wasted a huge chunk of his stamina using Tsukyomi on an already completely beaten Sasuke. 

This is not the kind of action you take if you think there is a person 5 feet away who could solo you, your partner, and further backup.

This is the kind of action you take if you think there's a person 5 feet away from you you don't need to pay attention to or waste chakra on.

Kisame must share this opinion, because he believed it entirely unnecessary for Itachi, who already wasted huge amounts of his chakra, to retreat from the situation.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 9, 2013)

Like everybody and their mom has been saying, that line is ambiguous in Japanese, or else the amount of time "invested" wouldn't be required for people fluent in Japanese. 

The context of the hype, however, is laughably clear. Jiriaya was never treated as somebody that could take on Itachi, Kisame, and having more back up wouldn't make a difference. 

Kurama, on the other hand, has been treated that way. The go-to response is "lol 12-year-old" but lol, read the manga and you'll see that some 12-year-olds could let their bijū out to play.

Kisame would never have believed (and didn't) that Jiraiya could take on Itachi, Kisame, and more backup. The Nine Tales and only the Nine Tales had that sort of hype to be believed.​


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## Trojan (Nov 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Like everybody and their mom has been saying, that line is ambiguous in Japanese, or else the amount of time "invested" wouldn't be required for people fluent in Japanese.
> 
> The context of the hype, however, is laughably clear. Jiriaya was never treated as somebody that could take on Itachi, Kisame, and having more back up wouldn't make a difference.
> 
> Kurama, on the other hand, has been treated that way. The go-to response is "lol 12-year-old" but lol, read the manga and you'll see that some 12-year-olds could let their bijū out to play.​



Naruto did not get the key for the seal until chapter 489.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 9, 2013)

Elia said:


> Naruto did not get the key for the seal until chapter 489.



Right, but Kisame didn't know that. I'm saying that if Itachi wanted to lie and convince Kisame to not go for Naruto, would he hype a Sannin thought to be equal-ish to Orochimaru, or Kurama?

Akatsuki, while respecting Sannin, didn't think a Sannin could take on multiple members. Deidara and Sasori thought they could kill them, Itachi was known to have beaten Orochimaru, etc.

Kurama, on the other hand, was basically hyped to be the ultimate beast. So Itachi saying that more Akatsuki backup wouldn't make a difference at least comes off as halfway believable.​


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## Trojan (Nov 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Right, but Kisame didn't know that. I'm saying that if Itachi wanted to lie to Kisame, would he say that a Sannin with less hype than Orochimaru (by Orochimaru statement later on) or Kurama could beat Kisame and him, even with more backup? Obviously, he'd go with Kurama.​



- I did not get what do you mean by saying a sannin with less hype, can you give me the scan? @.@
- Kurama can be control by the MS easily, Kisame knows about that. Also, Kisame himself said
he's a perfect mach against the  jin + when Naruto tried to use Kurama's chakra Kisame absorbed
that chakra easily.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 9, 2013)

Elia said:


> - I did not get what do you mean by saying a sannin with less hype, can you give me the scan? @.@



Orochimaru said there had always been a gap between him and Jiriaya, plus Orochimaru was known as the genius among the three ninja. So if Akatsuki wasn't afraid of Orochimaru...

Jiriaya being tiers stronger makes no sense. Both Sannin are powerful ninja, but mid-level Akatsuki were confident they could beat them. So Itachi, Kisame, and more Akatsuki losing is nuts.

Even if it was a lie, which most people agree with, it would be a completely, laughably untrue lie that Kisame would call bullshit on in an instant. And Itachi's a genius liar.

If the subject were Kurama, the most powerful entity in the verse that wrecked a village and that one of the strongest Hokage had to sacrifice his life to check, however... that's more believable.​


Elia said:


> Kurama can be control by the MS easily, Kisame knows about that.



We don't know if Kisame knew about that, and we don't even know if that mechanic had been invented by the author yet because it wouldn't be introduced for another 200 chapters.

Moreover, Itachi's phrasing of "More backup wouldn't make a difference" could also imply that he'd either control it or wouldn't, and all their lives would hang in the balance.​


Elia said:


> Also, Kisame himself said he's a perfect mach against the  jin + when Naruto tried to use Kurama's chakra Kisame absorbed
> that chakra easily.



We don't know if the author had invented Kisame's abilities yet or if Kisame himself had mastered his form or invented his best jutsu in part one. Base Jiriaya > Kisame > Kurama is farfetched though.

Not to mention that Bee thought the full bijū form would be more effective against Kisame but chose not to do so. Kurama's full form would still be a threat to Kisame given its raw power.​


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## Turrin (Nov 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Like everybody and their mom has been saying, that line is ambiguous in Japanese, or else the amount of time "invested" wouldn't be required for people fluent in Japanese.
> 
> The context of the hype, however, is laughably clear. Jiriaya was never treated as somebody that could take on Itachi, Kisame, and having more back up wouldn't make a difference.
> 
> ...


For the 50th time Strategoob, the problem isn't that hey maybe a 12 yo is that strong (though you can get back to me when you find the 12 yo that can beat Kisame and severely injure Itachi anyway lol), the problem is they were making definitive statements. Kisame was not saying well maybe this dude could be a uber skilled for his age and thus out of my league. He was saying that no matter what that 12 yo is out of my league and Itachi was saying no matter what that 12 yo would injure me badly. Which means even if that 12 yo turned out to be your average genin, Kisame would still loose and Itachi would still be injured badly capturing him. Which makes absolutely zero sense and if you want to talk context, it makes less sense because Kisame and Itachi literally strolled up to hotel door and knocked on it casually showing zero fear of that 12 yo. Those are not the actions someone takes if the context is suppose to be this 12 yo is certainly out of one of their league and would potentially kill thee other one. The way they handled J-man trying to distract him with the woman and than fleeing the moment he started using Jutsu, makes far more sense contextually with those statements.

And if your asking which is easier to believe statement wise. I can easily believe that J-man could cause severe injury to terminally ill and blinding Itachi. I could easily believe that Part I Kisame was weaker and than Part II Kisame and therefore irrelevant in the match; considering Itachi thought Part I Kakashi alone could cause great issue for Kisame, and Part I Kakashi was treated as irrelevant when compared to a Sannin previously (against Orochimaru). I could easily believe back up would be irrelevant, which could refer to any one and logically would probably refer to Zetsu/Zetsu-Clones or back up Itachi himself generated through using Genjutsu to control people to aid them; as that's the only back up that would have been accessible to them in that moment anyway, as I doubt any Akatsuki pairs who are constantly scattered around the world and need to Astral project to communicate could suddenly appear to their aid or they would even have the authority to demand such aid.

All of this is within the realm of plausible. Itachi think for sure a 12 yo would cause him severe injury and Kisame thinking for sure a 12 yo was out of his league is not within the realm of plausible, unless we assume Kisame and Itachi are literally retarded. So unless you can effectively argue that Kisame and Itachi are retards, your explanation is not even possible, let alone even worth discussing the plausibility of contextually.


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## Kai (Nov 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> He probably was in better condition, but how much better of a condition was he really in? In terms of eyesight there is little indication that he had been using MS frequently over the time-skip to the point where his eyes would have become significantly more blind than in Part I. Akatsuki did not make many moves to capture Jinchuuriki over the time-skip and we know Itachi still didn't capture a Jinchuuriki himself nor aid Kisame in the capture of Roshi. Other than the Jin, there is really no other enemies that Akatsuki has been indicated to have fought that would require Itachi to utilize MS. In Part II he of course wasn't shown using MS until the Sasuke fight or maybe 1 time before that if he prepped Tensha Fuuin Amaterasu in advance. So it's highly unlikely that Itachi's eyesight degraded much over the time-skip, meaning his eyesight would have already been pretty bad in Part I; worse at the time he was to face J-man since he had just recently previously used MS twice that day.
> 
> In terms of health we didn't see Itachi spitting up blood in Part I, but than again in Part I he never used MS as extensively as he did in the Hebi Sasuke fight, where he was using 2 Amaterasu consecutively; after already using Tsukuyomi shortly before. Itachi did however say in Part I that he needed to rest after using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. So the toll on his body using MS Jutsu is still indicated to be quite heavy in Part I.
> 
> So I really see no indication that Itachi was significantly more handicapped in Part II than in Part I. If --- and he probably was --  only slightly less handicapped, that isn't really going to make a difference for the purpose of this discussion.


There was such a difference in Itachi's physical condition that no reader could tell Itachi even had a disease in Part 1. To what degree is irrelevant to the core of the discussion so no, Part 1 Itachi can by no practical means be considered sick Itachi when there were literally no signs of illness to be found.

And comparing Part 1 Itachi to "Part 2" Itachi would have less effect on your conclusions than if you compared Part 1 Itachi to Itachi's fight against Sasuke within Part 2, the particular point in time of your comparison, as Itachi was moments away from being consumed by disease. Itachi was just about at the end of his life expectancy via disease when fighting Sasuke just as Kimimaro was at the end of his life expectancy via disease when fighting Naruto, Lee, and Gaara.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> It's cannon that Itachi is stronger than an armless Orochimaru, I personally think that he'd beat Part I Orochimaru in general even before he lost his arms, due to portrayal and abilities, but all the statements tell us is that armless Orochimaru stands no chance against Itachi


Turrin, Orochimaru said Itachi was stronger than he was period. You can argue Oro was simply trying to take over Itachi's body, but that's not mutually exclusive from Itachi preventing such action because he is more powerful than Orochimaru.

More importantly, there is absolutely no merit to being hyped stronger than an armless Orochimaru. That is just common sense.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> It's only an outlier of his general level if you believe Kisame throws away the chakra he's absorbed after every match, which I do not think is the case. I think Kisame's high Chakra levels are not his own but totally a result of chakra absorbing and the same is true of his strength. This is why when Samehada takes away most of Kisame's chakra he ends up in this emaciated state, which I think is indicated to be Kisame's true form w/o absorbed Chakra.


That is possible but still only conjecture, and the reason why putting more stock in that idea than necessary isn't so wise is because the likelihood of it can be challenged as well.

Neji stated Shoten Kisame had an enormous chakra capacity at a time which you admit yourself Akatsuki wasn't making any big moves on the jins. Now obviously this was long before Kisame had his fights with Roshi and Bee, unless you're trying to tell me Kisame has stolen massive quantities of chakra from over half the jinchuuriki before these events.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> In part I Kisame was indicated to have a rough time with Part I Kakashi, who he'd stomp in Part II, and he also was unable to absorb Asuma's Fuuton blade attack in time to avoid being hit, while in Part II he is casually absorbing B's Raiton swords no problem, despite B's superior speed to Asuma. Heck he even indicates he struggled with Roshi early in Part II, but is fairly casually taking down V1/V2 B later in Part II.


Part 1 Kisame indicated to having a rough time with Part 1 Kakashi? Please shed light on any indication that supports Kisame had a rough time with Kakashi.

That is one colossal falsehood if I have ever heard one.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 9, 2013)

What doesn't make sense if Naruto was strong enough to take on Kisame and Itachi then why would he need a guardian, and wouldn't he be the one to initially intercept Itachi and Kisame when they came to the village, you do know they were trailing Jiriyia the whole time, why would they need to lure Jiriyia away if Naruto was strong enough to take them both, they obviously saw Jiriyia as the threat.

It would also be OOC for Itachi to think Naruto was strong enough to take them both this is a genius , who supposedly had the wisdom of a kage at age 7 probably the most knowledgable shinobi in the manga, 

did he have the wisdom of a kage or a genin take your pick you shouldn't need a Japanese translator to translate common sense


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> There was such a difference in Itachi's physical condition that no reader could tell Itachi even had a disease in Part 1. To what degree is irrelevant to the core of the discussion so no, Part 1 Itachi can by no practical means be considered sick Itachi when there were literally no signs of illness to be found.
> 
> And comparing Part 1 Itachi to "Part 2" Itachi would have less effect on your conclusions than if you compared Part 1 Itachi to Itachi's fight against Sasuke within Part 2, the particular point in time of your comparison, as Itachi was moments away from being consumed by disease. Itachi was just about at the end of his life expectancy via disease when fighting Sasuke just as Kimimaro was at the end of his life expectancy via disease when fighting Naruto, Lee, and Gaara.
> 
> ...




Question what good is a dead Itachi Uchiha to Orochimaru, we've never seen Orochimaru taking part in battle besides for his own leisure , he IC cared nothing about his battle prowess as it pertains  to one on one bouts , all that mattered to him was getting a uchiha body to gain the power of Rikudo Sennin.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 9, 2013)

How the fuck do people think they were talking about Naruto? They said they couldn't beat the guy. They went to Naruto and fucked with him. Kisame literally told Naruto to his face that he wasn't shit. Jiraiya used one jutsu and they ran. Trying to say they were talking about Naruto is some fucked up kind of denial.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Orochimaru said there had always been a gap between him and Jiriaya, plus Orochimaru was known as the genius among the three ninja. So if Akatsuki wasn't afraid of Orochimaru...
> 
> Jiriaya being tiers stronger makes no sense. Both Sannin are powerful ninja, but mid-level Akatsuki were confident they could beat them. So Itachi, Kisame, and more Akatsuki losing is nuts.
> 
> ...


 
Atakuski did fear Orochimaru to a certain degree even after he left the group, they still wanted him dead, also we saw in the Danzo fight Obito though Orochimaru knew too much, then its confirmed when Kabuto approaches him with the coffins, and being the genius of the group means nothing, Kakashi is a genius yet he and Gai are on par, and Obito has become much strongeer than Kakashi, Sasuke was the genius of team 7 and Naruto is stronger than he is and will be from no till the end of the manga, we've been told time and time again there are many ways to become a powerful shinobi, either through sheer brilliance or through hard work,

Jiriyia and Orochimaru were just on opposite ends of the spectrum , although Orochimaru beig stronger still doesnt solve the riddle as we know npthing about how strong Orochimaru was in combat vs Itachi at full strength fighting to kill.

The only thing Itachi ever lied about was why he killed the Uchiha Clan, when it came to his won strength he always knew where he stood,

but we saw the story we the reader know everything there was to know about genin Naruto and Jiriyia, Jiriyia was leaps and bounds the more powerful shinobi , even from a literary standpoint it wouldnt make sense to dumb down Itachi the genius at the expese of hyping naruto when the reader already knows hes not that strong, it makes more sense as hype for Jiriyia especially in a arc where in fact the Sannin were highlighted 

If you had it your way Kishi, Itachi, and the reader all look like morons 

Back Up in a Kage Level fight is always meaningless, like in Naruto vs Pain, Orochimaru vs Hiruzen, Gaara vs Deidara, the alliance vs the Edo, fodder backup usually doesnt mean shit when kishi wants to highlight two shinobi against each other, this statement was about Itachi vs Jiriyia period

we saw Jiriyia vs Pain, we saw Itachi vs Sasuke that battle would be one for the ages , they wouldve torn the house down and Itachi wanted no parts of that except against Sasuke.


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## Turrin (Nov 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> There was such a difference in Itachi's physical condition that no reader could tell Itachi even had a disease in Part 1. To what degree is irrelevant to the core of the discussion so no, Part 1 Itachi can by no practical means be considered sick Itachi when there were literally no signs of illness to be found.


Only in retrospect w/ Obito's and Zetsu's statements in mind can anyone distinguish signs of him being sick. No one thought he was sick before than. In retro-spec Itachi having to rest after using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu in Part I was also a sign that he was sick. Likewise the dark circles under his eyes might also be considered a visual que of his illness in retro-spec, which were present in Part I. 

Now you can say well he wasn't coughing up blood, so there wasn't anything that dramatic in Part I, but there was nothing that dramatic in Part II, until he used MS more times than he ever did in Part I. So that really tells us nothing.



> And comparing Part 1 Itachi to "Part 2" Itachi would have less effect on your conclusions than if you compared Part 1 Itachi to Itachi's fight against Sasuke within Part 2, the particular point in time of your comparison, as Itachi was moments away from being consumed by disease. Itachi was just about at the end of his life expectancy via disease when fighting Sasuke just as Kimimaro was at the end of his life expectancy via disease when fighting Naruto, Lee, and Gaara.


Where is it stated that Itachi was at that moment especially near the end of his life? All I remember stated is that Itachi was taking drugs for some unknown period of time to extend his life. Contextually we are never told to my knowledge at that specific point in the manga he was far more ill or blind than ever before.



> Turrin, Orochimaru said Itachi was stronger than he was period. You can argue Oro was simply trying to take over Itachi's body, but that's not mutually exclusive from Itachi preventing such action because he is more powerful than Orochimaru.
> 
> More importantly, there is absolutely no merit to being hyped stronger than an armless Orochimaru. That is just common sense.



- Orochimaru said that Itachi is stronger than him in the present tense. At that time Orochimaru was missing his arms. 
- Orochimaru w/o his arms is still incredibly powerful -- especially since most of his Jutsu are snake based and don't require hands anyway -- so I still would see that as hype. And contextually it was there to explain why Orochimaru doesn't go after Itachi's body and instead simply focus on Sasuke throughout the rest of Part I and Part II.
- I don't know if Orochimaru was factoring in the ritual & his missing arms or not. I'm just saying the statement offers some leeway too it

Anyway I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole on this issue because I think Itachi would beat Part I Orochimaru even w/ his arms anyway; I just think it would be w/ high diff. And whether your take that statement to mean Orochimaru is admitting inferiority regardless of the ritual/arms or not; Itachi being stronger than him doesn't mean he's way stronger than than him, so I think sick/blinding Itachi defeating Part I Orochimaru w/ high diff is a perfectly reasonable assessment.



> That is possible but still only conjecture, and the reason why putting more stock in that idea than necessary isn't so wise is because the likelihood of it can be challenged as well.


It's extremely well backed conjecture, tho, and should not so easily be dismissed. Also even beyond this idea, there is nothing that prevented Kisame from becoming stronger during 3 years leading up to his battle with Killer B, just from a stand-point that he could have been training or developing more Jutsu. Kisame is not so old where he is past his prime and Kishi showed us other Ninja in Kisame's age bracket, like Kakashi, improving over this period of time greatly.

Really if people want to use Kisame's performance against B to discuss the Part I statement, the burden of proof is on them to show that Kisame, a ninja in the prime of his life, has not improved since Part I.



> Neji stated Shoten Kisame had an enormous chakra capacity at a time which you admit yourself Akatsuki wasn't making any big moves on the jins. Now obviously this was long before Kisame had his fights with Roshi and Bee, unless you're trying to tell me Kisame has stolen massive quantities of chakra from over half the jinchuuriki before these events.


Neji compared Shoten Kisame's chakra reserves to KN0 Naruto. Conveniently Kisame absorbed KN0 Naruto's chakra in Part I, so essentially Kisame added +30% (or slightly more) to his chakra to himself right in that instance; which is a significant un-noticed boost. That honestly I wonder why no one even wonders if Kisame's statement about not needing to run, might be because of his new confidence after gaining such a substantial boost, rather than confidence in Itachi; but that's another topic. 

Anyway It's not like I said Kisame never absorbed chakra before Roshi and B, I just see those as incredibly significant chakra amounts he gained, which should power boost him above what he previously had by a pretty large margin.



> Part 1 Kisame indicated to having a rough time with Part 1 Kakashi? Please shed light on any indication that supports Kisame had a rough time with Kakashi.
> 
> That is one colossal falsehood if I have ever heard one.


Colossal falsehood, it's in the manga. though maybe it's not in the shitty online Trans of that chapter (which is notoriously in accurate), but only in the Viz. 

Itachi says something along the lines of, if you spar with him one on one, you won't get away scott free and that Kisame will take too much time fighting Kakashi allowing other Konoha Ninja to arrive; in the Viz. However I do not have time to quote the Viz perfectly as i'm on my way out, so I'm paraphrasing a bit, but this is basically what he said, save a few small differences in wording.

And I cited other instances besides Kakashi, that indicate his strength kept increasing throughout the manga. Such as being hit by Asuma's Wind Blades and having a tough time with Roshi, which doesn't jive with his performance against B.


----------



## Coppur (Nov 9, 2013)

What was this thread about again?


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## FlamingRain (Nov 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Getting paid as professionals to translate the subject gives them authority on the subject being translated, so your and Turrin's ridiculous notion of fan-translator's "consensus" is moot.​



Being a professional does not grant a group the authority to overrule all other opinions on the matter.

Viz does not compose a majority, so the notion of a _consensus_ is not 'moot' because of _your interpretation of an admittedly ambiguous singular translation_.



> Do you know why I skipped over it? Because I'm not a Japanese translator and neither are you. Fan translators argue either way, and the professionals translated the viz as they did.​



First of all, Strategoob, you don't know me.

Second of all, I don't have to be an employee of Viz to realize that the pronoun is nonexistent in the Japanese text.



> Yes, it is. If you read the chapter and think that they behaved like Jiriaya was capable of taking them both down with more Akatsuki backup, then yes, it is absolutely nonsensical.​



I was saying that in the grammatical sense for that part, but whatever.

Kisame admits to being out of his league while Itachi stands a chance, and Itachi states that indeterminately powerful and numerous backup wasn't likely to make a difference. If Team Gai plus other Konoha ninja can only get in Naruto's way against Pain, I don't see Kisame calling bs on such a claim at a moment's notice.

Everything that happened in the inn was status quo for anyone assuming the subject was Jiraiya- two big dogs (Jiraiya and Itachi), one significantly weaker dude (Kisame); the significantly weaker dude begins freaking out once one of the big dogs gets rolling while the other big dog comparatively remains calm and tells Kisame they're getting out of dodge. Weaker dog then asks his partner big dog why a retreat was necessary for him, as someone who was stronger than he and had chances at their adversary.



> Here, both Akatsuki don't give a darn about Jiraiya.​



Which at that moment is to be expected because Sasuke had just asked Jiraiya to stay out of it.

Once Jiraiya actually stepped in, however, Kisame's wide-eyed, sweating face makes his panic blatantly obvious. Nothing short of Kisame saying "I'm scared" could make as bold of a statement.



> Huh, it seems like Naruto *was* the variable after all.​



If you're going to tout the supposed authority of the Viz translation the very least you can do is make an effort to stick with it.

Itachi says:

_*...There is no need to be impatient...none...​*_
Naruto is not in any way, shape or form mentioned as the variable.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 9, 2013)

A few online translators isn't a majority either. But whatever, if you or anybody else want to believe that the hype of "Even if I had more backup, it wouldn't make a difference" applies to Jiraiya and not Kurama, then lol.


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## Rocky (Nov 9, 2013)

One must admit, considering Itachi's history with Orochimaru, it would make little sense for him to foresee a draw at best _with backup_ against Jiraiya based on the _reputation of the Sannin alone._


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## Sadgoob (Nov 9, 2013)

And where more backup wouldn't make a difference, no less. Or why Kisame would ask "Why are we retreating?" if that hype actually applied to Jiraiya and not Kurama.​


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## Trojan (Nov 9, 2013)

Strategood

Kisame knew obito before the encounter with jman, and he knows that obito controlled Yagura 
Even though Yagura is a perfect jin. Therefore, he's undoubtfuly knows about the MS ability. 

Stating that kishi did not plan a head for every point is just poor argument, I don't care if did or not
It IS there in the manga and that's the important thing. If we found out that kisame and itachi are strong 
That does not make jman weak, but rather it make him look stronger. 

For example, madara was wanking hashi all the day when he fought the Gokage, did his wank make
The gokage weak, or made hashi look incredibly strong? 

It's the same with jman, as you take every hype for itachi from zetsu, obito, kabuto....etc 
Do you use that hype to say that they are weak, or do use it to say itachi is strong? 

No one of itachis fans come up with any good excuse IMO, they don't want it to be true just for the 
Sake of itachi!! 

If it was about portrayal then kishi even made it with KCM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, and Sakura with her seal! 
So, does not that make those 3 surpassed the sannin just at that time?


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## IchLiebe (Nov 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> And where more backup wouldn't make a difference, no less. Or why Kisame would ask "Why are we retreating?" if that hype actually applied to Jiraiya and not Kurama.​



How would that apply to Kurama? Kisame did one swipe of samehada and told Naruto that he wasn't any trouble. They were talking about how dangerous the person was, and that at best they would get seriously injured. They then went after Naruto and distracted Jiraiya. So how does anything of that make sense if Naruto was the threat they were talking about?

Hint-IT DOESN'T.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 10, 2013)

Not Naruto. Kurama. Most elite Jōnin could fodder-rape Chūnin Exam Gaara. But if Gaara let out Shukaku, he could suddenly sweep a village. The same concept applies.​


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## Shizune (Nov 10, 2013)

*High*
Oonoki
Itachi
Minato
Tobirama

*Mid*
Tsunade
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Kakashi
Gai

*Low*
Gaara
Mei
Mu
4th Kazekage
2nd Mizukage
Hiruzen


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## IchLiebe (Nov 10, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Not Naruto. Kurama. Most elite Jōnin could fodder-rape Chūnin Exam Gaara. But if Gaara let out Shukaku, he could suddenly sweep a village. The same concept applies.​



That makes no fucking sense. You're grasping at straws heavily. You're telling me they were referring to a tailed beast by his gender. Saying "he" and "him". The viz scan someone posted earlier does make it sound weird but it's common sense they were talking about Jiraiya. They said their titles pale in comparison. Then they said if they faced off they would stalemate, then Itachi went on to say Jiraiya had a weakness. The weakness was basically used to get Jiraiya away from Naruto.

So basically here's what we know.

They didn't want to fight the person, whoever it is, head on.
They distracted Jiraiya and got him away from Naruto.
They went to Naruto HEAD ON.
Naruto started using Kurama's chakra and their reactions were to break Sasuke's wrist and tell him that he's in the way, and then Kisame swung his sword once and told Naruto he wasn't anything to worry about.

How do you get that Naruto (basically Kurama) is who they were talking about from that? That's is absolutely fucking ridiculous.


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## Turrin (Nov 10, 2013)

Nitty Scott said:


> *High*
> Oonoki
> Itachi
> Minato
> ...


2nd Mizukage and Mu being low Kage does not make much sense to me as they would beat anyone from Mid, except maybe J-man due to his motion detection barrier, though even than they'd still probably win. And they would give everyone in the high tier, high diff and could potentially even win.


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## Blaze Release (Nov 10, 2013)

I think people might have left something out when trying to figure out who the 'he' that kisame talked about is.

I have read the text over and over again and to me its absolutely clear that they were talking about something else before kisame eventually came to naruto and jiraiya. The next makes no sense for them to be talking about jiraiya  in the first text, because of the way the second text is phrased.

At the same time i agree that, the 'he' being kurama is also Iffy.
I do understand those who think this 'he' might be kurama, as i said to me anyway kisame only started talking about naruto/jiraiay in the second text, because they are trying to make sense of who this he might be and so far kurama might seem the likely person to them. 

But it might be, its a completely off topic discussion by the two (kisame/Itachi), before kisame switched the convo with the introduction of naruto and jiraiya. So in the end, this 'he', might not be either kurama or jiraiya.


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## Kai (Nov 10, 2013)

Blaze Release said:


> I think people might have left something out when trying to figure out who the 'he' that kisame talked about is.
> 
> I have read the text over and over again and to me its absolutely clear that they were talking about something else before kisame eventually came to naruto and jiraiya. The next makes no sense for them to be talking about jiraiya  in the first text, because of the way the second text is phrased.
> 
> ...


I used to think the same thing; according to translators when Itachi and Kisame are transitioning between subjects, "he/him" in the first part of the dialogue is separate from "he/him" in the second.

If it was the same subject throughout, they would be talking about Naruto and not Jiraiya. Apparently, that is not the case.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 10, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> That makes no fucking sense. You're grasping at straws heavily. You're telling me they were referring to a tailed beast by his gender. Saying "he" and "him".



Kurama is a dude. And it makes more sense than Kisame believing that someone around Orochimaru's level could defeat Itachi, himself, and more backup from Akatsuki.

Kisame wouldn't buy Jiriaya beating them and backup for a second. The Nine Tales, on the other hand, is basically as strong as the other eight bijū combined, so that sort of hype actually makes sense.

Moreover, if the subject were Jiriaya, then Kisame asking why Itachi wanted to retreat makes no sense. They were only worried about the Nine Tales emerging and having to take the superbeast on. 

But because there was no Kurama (only Jiraiya,) Kisame was baffled as to why they were retreating. Again. That wouldn't make sense if Kisame and Itachi were initially hyping Jiraiya, not Kurama.​


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 10, 2013)

If they felt the 9 tails was that strong then why would they hunt Kurama in the first place, they would've sent enough backup or the necessary power to take on the 9 tails, and it adds up to what we saw with Pain, Obito warned Nagato that Naruto had become stronger , 

They discussed what they weren't prepared for and that's  Jiriyia's presence something they were unprepared for

Kisame only saw Jiriyia's base abilities he knew nothing of Sage Mode , but we learn in the Kabuto fight that Itachi did,

Sage Mode is drastically underestimated here, we saw Sage Mode give Nagato trouble twice , we saw Sage Mode dominate Madara, counter Juubito, shit we saw Sage Mode give two MS users trouble, and that was Edo Itachi, this is sick Itachi we're talking about , he's over estimated on the forums here

he was judging his illness vs a Sage Mode user


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## Sadgoob (Nov 11, 2013)

They were hunting a _jinchūriki_, and jinchūrikis' abilities to utilize their bijūs' powers vary. But you're seriusly overestimating his Sage Mode. It didn't actually match 3 Pains, only guerilla genjutsu did. 

Eh, also: Kabuto took on two Mangekyō users when neither wanted to kill him and didn't use their techniques to their fullest capabilities. And please, make a thread about Sage Jiriaya vs Madara. Go ahead.

But that's all beside the point, because Itachi didn't know Jiriaya had senjutsu. He simply knew of the concept of sage chakra.​


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## Rocky (Nov 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Sage Jiriaya vs Madara. Go ahead..​




Base is enough. Yomi numa GG.


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## ueharakk (Nov 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Eh, also: Kabuto took on two Mangekyō users when neither wanted to kill him and didn't use their techniques to their fullest capabilities.



You forgot the part where Kabuto wasn't trying to kill one of them, and the other part where one was an EMS user while the other was an edo zombie who not only has unlimited chakra and an immortal body which pretty much covers the major two flaws of the MS, but he also died 2 times in that fight.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 11, 2013)

I guess that somehow makes the fight valid? Or are you just reinforcing my point that it wasn't?​


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