# MS Kakashi vs Jiraya



## kakashibeast (Apr 12, 2014)

Location - current
Conditions - Kakashi s eye sight is perfect 
Distance - 50m
Mindset - Character but slighty agressive
Info - Manga
Restrictions - no restrictions


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## animeboy1 (Apr 12, 2014)

Jiraiya doesn't have any apparent counters to Kamui. The fact that, he'll start in base, will further reduce his chances. With Jiraiya's Sannin hype, and Kakashi's awareness about his SM, Jiraiya might end up losing -low difficulty.


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## Itachі (Apr 12, 2014)

Kakashi uses Kamui before Jiraiya can do anything.  Like Animeboy said, Jiraiya is pretty hyped and knowing this, Kakashi will use Kamui.


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 12, 2014)

the only scenario where kakashi beats jiraiya is in an assassination via ambush w/ MS uncovered & activated...and that's still only a 50/50 since such a situation would take place in a city/forest w LoS blockers.

in a straight up fight, jiraiya wins everytime. 
50 meters helps jiraiya counter sharingan stuffs in general, but that depends on how U imadine their ''_IC'' tendencies_


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## Shinryu (Apr 12, 2014)

Yomi Numa gg and know Kakashi cant get out if a giant two headed snake was stuck in it.Needle Jizo makes Raikiri suicide.Jiraiya could also spit oil on the floor to Kakashi lose his footing then launch katons at him.

As for that Kamui hax Jiraiya can feint Kakashi by spamming large scale attacks to force him to kamui away if he wants to live.Example Kakashi had to kamui away Minato's rasengan or it would have killed him.


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2014)

Kamui GG doesn't exist in the actual manga. It's made up by fans who think "feats" actually matter. In reality Kamui is primarily a defensive Jutsu or a Jutsu used after an opening has already been created through the usage of other Jutsu. Kakashi just Kamui'ing Jiriaya's head off is point blank never happening.

With that said I do think MS-Kakashi at his best, before blindness was too big of an issue could give Jiriaya a good fight, ultimately Jiriaya possessing mary-sue mode (Sennin Modo) would probably give him the win though.


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2014)

Feats doesn't matter, Turrin?


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Feats doesn't matter, Turrin?


Very rarely do they matter


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## Itachі (Apr 12, 2014)

@Turrin

Kakashi did try to kamui Deidara early on however. Of course he couldn't then but current Kakashi non blind Kakashi could.


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## Bonly (Apr 12, 2014)

I'd favor Kakashi more times then not. He can deal with most of Base Jiraiya's arsenal and Jiraiya doesn't have any knowledge on Kamui nor the speed to suggest he can do much about it. Jiraiya can put up a good fight but he'd lose more times then not in base. If Jiraiya managed to reach SM then he might stand a chance, depending on how Kakashi used Kamui that is but I doubt he'd manage to get into it.


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Very rarely do they matter



In the NBD is one of the most, if not the most important thing to do, because of this we can conclude a character's mindset, behavior, speed, inteligence, power, endurance, etc.

I am with you that portrayal doesn't need to be ignored here, but when you have Jiraiya in chapter 500 being portrayed above Kakashi, but in chapter 600 you see Kakashi doing a lot more things than Jiraiya has ever done (this is just an example), then we only have feats to determine who would win in a fight, because Kishimoto doesn't always indicate us if x character surpassed the other.


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> In the NBD is one of the most, if not the most important thing to do, because of this we can conclude a character's mindset, behavior, speed, inteligence, power, endurance, etc.
> .


That is the choice of many posters, but not a NBD rule.



> I am with you that portrayal doesn't need to be ignored here, but when you have Jiraiya in chapter 500 being portrayed above Kakashi, but in chapter 600 you see Kakashi doing a lot more things than Jiraiya has ever done (this is just an example)


What are you referring to?



> , then we only have feats to determine who would win in a fight, because Kishimoto doesn't always indicate us if x character surpassed the other.


Or we can just say that there isn't enough info to call the match. 

Though personally I give Jiriaya the edge, as I don't think Kakashi was indicated to have made such an astronomical improvement from the Pain-Arc where he couldn't even imagine how Jiriaya performed so well against Pain; he's improved, but I don't think he's gone from the point where the gap was so great he couldn't fathom Jiriaya's strength to the point where he is > Jiriaya. That and Jiriaya has Mary-Sue Mode (SM).

Edit: I mean if you want to see how dumb "feat" based arguments are. Look at the fact that most people in this thread are citing that based on "feats" Kakashi wins with Kamui. Than look at the actual manga; Kakashi had Kamui and was very skilled with it in the Pain-Arc, yet couldn't fathom Jiriaya's strength. Yet people think Kamui is > Jiriaya LOL; make zero sense.


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> That is the choice of many posters, but not a NBD rule.



It's the most popular choice, otherwise this would become more of a favorite character fight than what it is already.



> What are you referring to?



It was just an example, if  character X  was portrayed below character Y in chapter, let's say 500, but 100 chapters laters, character X shows better feats than character Y, then we can determine that character X surpassed him or can defeat the other.



> Or we can just say that there isn't enough info to call the match.



But feats are info. Kakashi got an upgrade, and this was shown to us by feats, not by Kishimoto's words, for example. 



> Though personally I give Jiriaya the edge, as I don't think Kakashi was indicated to have made such an astronomical improvement from the Pain-Arc where he couldn't even imagine how Jiriaya performed so well against Pain; he's improved, but I don't think he's gone from the point where the gap was so great he couldn't fathom Jiriaya's strength to the point where he is > Jiriaya. That and Jiriaya has Mary-Sue Mode (SM).
> 
> Edit: I mean if you want to see how dumb "feat" based arguments are. Look at the fact that most people in this thread are citing that based on "feats" Kakashi wins with Kamui. Than look at the actual manga; Kakashi had Kamui and was very skilled with it in the Pain-Arc, yet couldn't fathom Jiriaya's strength. Yet people think Kamui is > Jiriaya LOL; make zero sense.



I am not saying Kakashi wins, i am just saying that feats are valuable in most cases. Feats also can represent a character's behavior, as Kakashi has never shown the willingness to use Kamui right of the bat, therefore the Kamui GG at the start of the match goes against feats. I don't think Kakashi is gonna use Kamui at the start of the match, though, but i can say that Kakashi can use it offensively.


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> It's the most popular choice, otherwise this would become more of a favorite character fight than what it is already.


Feats are more subjective to biased favoritism than portrayal. I can make a compelling case for almost any character beating another character based on feats. Can't do that with portrayal. 



> It was just an example, if character X was portrayed below character Y in chapter, let's say 500, but 100 chapters laters, character X shows better feats than character Y, then we can determine that character X surpassed him or can defeat the other.


Not based on "feats" 



> But feats are info. Kakashi got an upgrade, and this was shown to us by feats, not by Kishimoto's words, for example.


"Feats" are info about a certain characteristic of a person's arsenal, but they don't work when trying to find who is holistically the better ninja or who would win in a fight. 



> I am not saying Kakashi wins, i am just saying that feats are valuable in most cases. Feats also can represent a character's behavior, as Kakashi has never shown the willingness to use Kamui right of the bat, therefore the Kamui GG at the start of the match goes against feats. I don't think Kakashi is gonna use Kamui at the start of the match, though, but i can say that Kakashi can use it offensively.


I think character behavior is within the scope of portrayal.

To be clear by feats I mean; character-X doesn't have a counter to Character-Y's jutsu so he loose or is inferior; doesn't work as a system.


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## Bonly (Apr 12, 2014)

Can we just not do it people? We get it Turrin hates feats and loves his poretayal and shit, no need to try aand talk sense into each other here. We do not need another A vs Orochi thread which went from the actually match up to Turrins idea of portrayal and shit being talked about which has gone on for 5 or 6 pages straight almost. Can we try to stay on topic and you two just take it to either PMs/VMs or take the other thread? Thanks


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## ueharakk (Apr 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Kamui GG doesn't exist in the actual manga. It's made up by fans who think "feats" actually matter. In reality Kamui is primarily a defensive Jutsu or a Jutsu used after an opening has already been created through the usage of other Jutsu. Kakashi just Kamui'ing Jiriaya's head off is point blank never happening.
> 
> With that said I do think MS-Kakashi at his best, before blindness was too big of an issue could give Jiriaya a good fight, ultimately Jiriaya possessing mary-sue mode (Sennin Modo) would probably give him the win though.



this fight takes place outside the manga where the victory is not influenced by plot, thus feats most definitely matter.

If the fight was in manga, and intent is to kill, you could put part 1 kid naruto up against Juubidara and Naruto would have to win.


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## richard lewis (Apr 12, 2014)

Kakashi should takes this more times than not. In base "excluding summon" kakashi is superior to jiraiya, he's faster, he has more jutsu, he has strong counter to jiraiya's jutsu "water beats fire, lighting beats earth", and he has genjutsu which I think is going to create some real issue's for jiraiya. If they fight in base kakashi is eventually going to take jiraiya out mid-high diff. If jiriaya brings out a boss summon I think kakashi is going to go for kamui immediately as I doubt he would risk trying to fight with a buju sized summon. Only way I can see jiraiya winning is if by some miracle he managed to enter SM and even then he's likely to get taken out by kamui. kakashi wins 9/10


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Can we just not do it people? We get it Turrin hates feats and loves his poretayal and shit, no need to try aand talk sense into each other here. We do not need another A vs Orochi thread which went from the actually match up to Turrins idea of portrayal and shit being talked about which has gone on for 5 or 6 pages straight almost. Can we try to stay on topic and you two just take it to either PMs/VMs or take the other thread? Thanks


Except it's on the topic of Kakashi's Kamui



ueharakk said:


> this fight takes place outside the manga where the victory is not influenced by plot, thus feats most definitely matter.


I don't know why people suddenly think this changes anything. Whether outside of the plot or not, we don't have knowledge on these characters full arsenals. Thus feats is pointless. Kakashi has 1,000 Jutsu we've  seen like 20-30. Jiriaya legendary sannin with 50+ years of exp, plus he can summon a myriad of toads that bring their own Jutsu/abilities to the table; we've probably only seen a fraction of his arsenal as well. You really going to sit here and tell me we can judge this by what's been shown? 



> If the fight was in manga, and intent is to kill, you could put part 1 kid naruto up against Juubidara and Naruto would have to win.


WHAT!? No if it was in the plot Naruto would have to survive not win. We literally saw BM-Naruto get owned by a weaker Madara; and that was in the plot.


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## Bonly (Apr 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Except it's on the topic of Kakashi's Kamui



Doesn't matter. Look at how you and Rocky started on the topic of Orochi vs A and now look where you two are at in another thread


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## StickaStick (Apr 12, 2014)

The paradox that arises when you only consider portrayal at the expense of feats is that you get shit like the following: Kakashi has been portrayed by hype and statements from reputable characters and demonstrated in actual combat as one of the top tacticians. Yet he doesn't use Kamui offensively aggressively nearly enough for obvious reasons; i.e., plot. However, how does it make any sense that any genius and top-tier tactician worth an once of their salt wouldn't abuse a jutsu as busted as Kakashi's snipping Kamui to their full advantage--especially when one is now as proficient with it as Kakashi? But we already know the reason why--plot.

Unfortunately using Kamui offensively aggressively is not IC which is the stipulated mindset; but, it is modified to say he's slightly more aggressive than usual which means Kakashi might be more willing to use it that way here against Jiraiya which should give him the edge.


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## ARGUS (Apr 12, 2014)

Kakashi wins with kamui 
Without it he loses


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## Mercurial (Apr 12, 2014)

If you want portrayal:

Kakashi was stated to be Konoha's number one ninja in part 1 from manga statements 1 and the 1st databook, so he was better than old Hiruzen and slightly better than Gai.

And current Kakashi would steamroll part 1 Kakashi in everything... hype and portrayal too. Kakashi is the rival of the man that, using his extreme power, is kicking SM Rinnegan Juubimadara'ass and is hyped to be far, far, far above the combined Gokage. Kakashi outsmarted/outreacted Obito a lot of times, and in their final fight he won, and Obito admitted inferiority to him and was portrayed to be under his level because skill and quality > strength and quantity. Motherfucking Madara hyped Kakashi as the user of the powerful dojutsu that damaged (and could kill with a just a little bit of luck) the Gedo Mazo. Nagato through Pain respected and hyped Kakashi's skill and strength, before the War, when Kakashi was facing Deva, he also sent Asura as back up... against Jiraiya, he sent Animal Path LoL and then Preta and Human LoL. Jiraiya said he didn't have any chance even in SM and had to run away. Kakashi faced the post powerful body and tricked him twice, without even using his trump card, he could have killed him if it wasn't for plot. Deva didn't even showcase his powers against Jiraiya, because Fukasaku didn't share any info about it.

In portrayal Kakashi was under Jiraiya in part 1, his equal in Shippuden first half, he was seen as stronger in the War Arc as one of the biggest players of the war.

If you want feats:

Kakashi is a lot, a lot faster than Jiraiya (a man who could counterblitz some V2 Bijuu landing Raikiri 2 on them and has short reactions comparable to KCM Minato 3; outspeeded and outreacted Obito, who was physically as fast as no Shunshin KCM Naruto; has been called fast a lot of times, his speed is hyped even in databooks; could blitz Zabuza cutting his arm and piercing his heart in the same swift movement; could blitz Kakuzu and Asura Pain with a little distraction. And he has Sharingan/MS precognition to his side too. Raiden is made from two Kakashi (the original one and a KB) Shunshining at high speeds and with Sharingan enhanced reactions, it could slice through V2 chakra arms before they reached him from a short distance attacking from behind. Kakashi can simply blitz Jiraiya with Raikiri or Raiden without him able to do anything, feats show that he is a lot faster and he is blessed with Sharingan precog too, also even if Jiraiya could react, he sure as hell can't dodge a man faster than he is and with precog on top too... and he cannot even block, because Kakashi's Raiton would cut or pierce Jiraiya's Ranjishigami/Hari Jizo like butter. Throw in also Kakashi's superior intellect and pure skill/jutsu timing that tricked shinobi like Itachi, Pain and Obito. Kakashi can also preempt Jiraiya's Yomi Numa and reverse it on him like he did with Zabuza's Daibafuku, he also trumps Doton with superior Raiton and his own Doton, can defeat Jiraiya's Katon with far more powerful Suiton and even add Raiton to it; he can't defeat Gamayu Endan, but he can dodge it by Doton underground with relative ease. Sharingan genjutsu is another card, Kakashi's is on Obito's level and that's more than enough to mindfuck Jiraiya at wish. Frog summons are screwed, even Preta Path was dancing around Gamabunta, Kakashi is a lot faster and can cut his limbs with ease using Raiton nintaijutsu, this is one who could fend off multiple Bijuu together with Gai, he LoLs at Jiraiya's summons. Current Kakashi kills base Jiraiya with relative ease, and he could defeat even SM Jiraiya with some troubles. Not that Jiraiya is reaching SM if fighting against Kakashi, obviously. And I'm not even factoring Kakashi's Mangekyo Sharingan. Kakashi can end the fight in the instant he decides to with Kamui, this should be clear as day.


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## LostSelf (Apr 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Feats are more subjective to biased favoritism than portrayal. I can make a compelling case for almost any character beating another character based on feats. Can't do that with portrayal.



If both characters are on the same level, yeah. Feats cannot be subjetive to biased favoritism if we see a character having a jutsu that can kill the other and said person doesn't have a counter. If we count portrayal on Jiraiya, we can say that Kamui will never work on him even if he doesn't have the tools to avoid it, and that would be assumption, wich would lead to favoritism.



> Not based on "feats"



Yes it can. If Konohamaru suddenly appears with a jutsu at the speed of light in both, activation speed and traveling speed that kills the user on touch, no amount of portrayal will help for example, EMS Sasuke if he hasn't shown to react to that or counter that.



> "Feats" are info about a certain characteristic of a person's arsenal, but they don't work when trying to find who is holistically the better ninja or who would win in a fight.



Indeed, but it can be taken into account Kakashi's actions as well. We gauge the IC behavior based on feats and how the character fought in different battles. Therefore we can say that by feats, Kakashi has never opened with Kamui.



> I think character behavior is within the scope of portrayal.



Why? Character behavior is how they act in battle against certain enemies. Kakashi is calculative with everybody, not because of his portrayal, but because of his mindset. Portrayal is mostly to determine the overall level of the Shinobi.



> To be clear by feats I mean; character-X doesn't have a counter to Character-Y's jutsu so he loose or is inferior; doesn't work as a system.



This is controlled by behavior, IC Kakashi wouldn't do it, but an OOC BL Kakashi would.


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## ueharakk (Apr 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I don't know why people suddenly think this changes anything. Whether outside of the plot or not, we don't have knowledge on these characters full arsenals. Thus feats is pointless. Kakashi has 1,000 Jutsu we've  seen like 20-30. Jiriaya legendary sannin with 50+ years of exp, plus he can summon a myriad of toads that bring their own Jutsu/abilities to the table; we've probably only seen a fraction of his arsenal as well. You really going to sit here and tell me we can judge this by what's been shown?


So what if we don't have knowledge on these character's full arsenals?  The same is said for the opposing character as well so it balances out.  in addition to that, if a character decides to never use a jutsu in the situations we've seen them in so far, then it's more likely than not that those unused jutsu wouldn't help them out as much as the jutsu that is used.  What we can do is give characters who we have less information about a greater benefit of the doubt when it comes to dealing with specific scenarios, but throw out the entire method of evaluation simply because we don't have complete knowledge?  That's ridiculous.

In addition to that, you completely ignored what i've just said, that the victories and the way fights even go down are decided by plot and driven by plot, NOT necessarily decided by who kishimoto thinks is stronger.  

Finally, subjective character portrayal arguments are just that: completely subjective.  What you might interpret as 'character A being 'portrayed' as superior to character B' might not seem the same way to another person, and there is literally no way of falsifying that.

Seriously, if the biggest obstacle the feat-wise arguments have to overcome is 'potentially unused jutsu' then that just proves how much better it is than the portrayal argument.



Turrin said:


> WHAT!? No if it was in the plot Naruto would have to survive not win. We literally saw BM-Naruto get owned by a weaker Madara; and that was in the plot.


that's completely irrelevant, Madara's intent is to kill, unless you believe that kid naruto is capable of running away from Madara without outside help, then he either dies or madara gets defeated.



Turrin said:


> Feats are more subjective to biased favoritism than portrayal. I can make a compelling case for almost any character beating another character based on feats. Can't do that with portrayal.


can you give an example of a ridiculous conclusion one would have to reach via a feat-based argument?


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> If both characters are on the same level, yeah. Feats cannot be subjetive to biased favoritism if we see a character having a jutsu that can kill the other and said person doesn't have a counter.


I disagree heavily with this, feats are completely subjective to favoritism. I can make up plenty of counters based on feats to any Jutsu and we in-fact see this all the time.



> . If we count portrayal on Jiraiya, we can say that Kamui will never work on him even if he doesn't have the tools to avoid it, and that would be assumption, wich would lead to favoritism.


First off the entire NBD only works on assumptions. Second I wouldn't argue Jiriaya has a counter to Kamui based on portrayal, what I would argue is that Jiriaya beats Kakashi based on portrayal. Whether he does that by countering Kamui or he does that based on defeating Kakashi before Kamui is utilized offensively IDK.

Let's also bare in mind that based on feats, Kakashi has zero feats of utilizing Kamui to outright defeat someone



> Yes it can. If Konohamaru suddenly appears with a jutsu at the speed of light in both, activation speed and traveling speed that kills the user on touch, no amount of portrayal will help for example, EMS Sasuke if he hasn't shown to react to that or counter that.


If Kishi had Konohmaru reveal such power most likely there would be portrayal that goes alongside it. It's like when Gai opened 8th-Gate, we have plenty of statements indicating he would be super strong.



> Indeed, but it can be taken into account Kakashi's actions as well. We gauge the IC behavior based on feats and how the character fought in different battles. Therefore we can say that by feats, Kakashi has never opened with Kamui.
> Why? Character behavior is how they act in battle against certain enemies. Kakashi is calculative with everybody, not because of his portrayal, but because of his mindset. Portrayal is mostly to determine the overall level of the Shinobi.
> This is controlled by behavior, IC Kakashi wouldn't do it, but an OOC BL Kakashi would.


Personally I feel a character being unlikely to use their triumph card first is a universal story element that applies to every character. 

OOC just means to me that posters are free to come up with any strategy they want to impart to the character and that's more in the lines of KC stuff. So really i'm not speaking towards an OOC match up.



ueharakk said:


> So what if we don't have knowledge on these character's full arsenals?


How does it balance out? The stuff we haven't seen from one character could be better than the stuff we haven't seen from another. This is an unknowable and unquantifiable thing.



> in addition to that, if a character decides to never use a jutsu in the situations we've seen them in so far, then it's more likely than not that those unused jutsu wouldn't help them out as much as the jutsu that is used. What we can do is give characters who we have less information about a greater benefit of the doubt when it comes to dealing with specific scenarios, but throw out the entire method of evaluation simply because we don't have complete knowledge? That's ridiculous.


This might be true if a character has been up against another character with exactly the same or extremely similar arsenal however that is almost never the case in the NBD.



> n addition to that, you completely ignored what i've just said, that the victories and the way fights even go down are decided by plot and driven by plot, NOT necessarily decided by who kishimoto thinks is stronger.


I didn't ignore it, I just disagree. Fights are decided by who Kishi thinks is stronger and if plot dictates that the weaker character must win than Kishi gives the stronger character handicaps or the weaker character advantages; it's that simple.



> Finally, subjective character portrayal arguments are just that: completely subjective. What you might interpret as 'character A being 'portrayed' as superior to character B' might not seem the same way to another person, and there is literally no way of falsifying that.


Portrayal is not nearly as subjective as many people claim it to be. Most of the time people interpreting it another way are simply bias. Let me give you an example, from one of your own posts. Recently I saw you post in the 7th-Gate Gai thread where you stated that BM-Naruto > 7th-Gated Gai because he was able to handle the Bijuu Bombs which Gai stated he need 8th-Gate to handle. This is pretty straight forward, yet still people in that thread argued against you. But that's not because your point is invalid, in-fact it's 100% accurate, it's simply that people are biased.



> Seriously, if the biggest obstacle the feat-wise arguments have to overcome is 'potentially unused jutsu' then that just proves how much better it is than the portrayal argument.


Come on bro, unused jutsu makes the feat argument pointless as your arguing a character can't counter a certain Jutsu, but ultimately you don't know that because the character has unused Jutsu. 



> that's completely irrelevant, Madara's intent is to kill, unless you believe that kid naruto is capable of running away from Madara without outside help, then he either dies or madara gets defeated.


What? Why is outside help restricted? If were talking the plot, than that is exactly what would happen; someone would come save Naruto's ass.



> can you give an example of a ridiculous conclusion one would have to reach via a feat-based argument?


Yeah, the one I cited above that 7th-Gate Gai > BM Naruto, because he clashed evenly with Juubidara in CQC for a few moments. When portrayal as you, yourself cited in a very compelling way, very clearly indicates that 7th-Gated Gai is inferior. That's one example. I could give you hundreds more, but it's much simpler to just use the search function and look up any BD thread and you'll see tons of conclusions that make zero sense given what the author actually indicates about the characters.


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## ueharakk (Apr 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> How does it balance out? The stuff we haven't seen from one character could be better than the stuff we haven't seen from another. This is an unknowable and unquantifiable thing.


And the stuff we haven't seen from the other character could be better than the stuff we haven't seen from the one.  So it balances out. 



Turrin said:


> This might be true if a character has been up against another character with exactly the same or extremely similar arsenal however that is almost never the case in the NBD.


 It's the situation that matters not who they are fighting.  And the scenarios and arsenals don't have to be anywhere near exactly the same.  



Turrin said:


> I didn't ignore it, I just disagree. *Fights are decided by who Kishi thinks is stronger and if plot dictates that the weaker character must win than Kishi gives the stronger character handicaps or the weaker character advantages; it's that simple.*


In an argument/debate/discussion, if you don't agree with something, you have to give reasons why you don't agree else, it's counted as you either ignoring it or agreeing with it.

The bolded is merely an assertion, an assertion in which you would use circular reasoning to verify.  Also, portrayal isn't just about who wins and who loses a fight, it's about who looks better in a fight or who has a better showing since we hardly ever have character vs character instances.



Turrin said:


> Portrayal is not nearly as subjective as many people claim it to be. Most of the time people interpreting it another way are simply bias. Let me give you an example, from one of your own posts. Recently I saw you post in the 7th-Gate Gai thread where you stated that BM-Naruto > 7th-Gated Gai because he was able to handle the Bijuu Bombs which Gai stated he need 8th-Gate to handle. This is pretty straight forward, yet still people in that thread argued against you. But that's not because your point is invalid, in-fact it's 100% accurate, it's simply that people are biased.


dude, you gotta read my posts in that thread again.  I didn't see an argument where someone was trying to say 7th gated Gai > BM Naruto, the only one i saw was with movement speed 7th gated Gai > BM Naruto.  And if you looked at my response to that, i admitted there are 2 options:
1) 7th gated Gai's movement speed had been retconned since then
2) BM Naruto's speed > 7th gated Gai's max speed if Naruto uses shunshin

And I think either of those are very plausible explanations which take into account the feats and while staying true to the explicit statement.



Turrin said:


> Come on bro, unused jutsu makes the feat argument pointless as your arguing a character can't counter a certain Jutsu, but ultimately you don't know that because the character has unused Jutsu.


There are tons of unknowns in the naruto manga, but simply not knowing something doesn't mean that we can't try to find the best explanation of the evidence.  Lots of characters may have lots of jutsus, but we see that they hardly use more than their bread-and-butters.  For characters who don't have as much opportunity as others to flesh out their good jutsu, we can give them more leway and be more flexible with them.  The amount of flexibility we give them should also be a factor of their portrayal.



Turrin said:


> What? Why is outside help restricted? If were talking the plot, than that is exactly what would happen; someone would come save Naruto's ass.


Yeah, but in a battledome thread, outside help is restricted.  Thus can you now see how evaluating an argument in a battledome thread based on purely what would happen isn't the best way to go?



Turrin said:


> Yeah, the one I cited above that 7th-Gate Gai > BM Naruto, because he clashed evenly with Juubidara in CQC for a few moments. When portrayal as you, yourself cited in a very compelling way, very clearly indicates that 7th-Gated Gai is inferior. That's one example. I could give you hundreds more, but it's much simpler to just use the search function and look up any BD thread and you'll see tons of conclusions that make zero sense given what the author actually indicates about the characters.


Can you give me another?  Give me the one you think is the best or one of the best examples.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 13, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> And the stuff we haven't seen from the other character could be better than the stuff we haven't seen from the one.  So it balances out.


Something unknown is not a balance; it's simply unknown. 



> It's the situation that matters not who they are fighting. And the scenarios and arsenals don't have to be anywhere near exactly the same.


How is who they are fighting not part of the situation?



> In an argument/debate/discussion, if you don't agree with something, you have to give reasons why you don't agree else, it's counted as you either ignoring it or agreeing with it.
> 
> The bolded is merely an assertion, an assertion in which you would use circular reasoning to verify. Also, portrayal isn't just about who wins and who loses a fight, it's about who looks better in a fight or who has a better showing since we hardly ever have character vs character instances.


But all you gave was an assertion as well...

In terms of support, there are tons of instances where on paper it seems as if one character would hold an advantage, but than that does not turn out to be the case. 

Kidomaru vs Neji - Long-Rang Fighter vs CQC specialist, seems as if Kidomaru holds the advantage; Neji wins.

Deidara vs Hebi Sasuke - Going into that fight Sasuke's best shit was CQC oriented, so it seemed as if Deidara had the advantage, but not the case

Minato vs Ei - It would seem as if Minato doesn't have anything to put Ei down outside of Suicide Shiki Fuujin, but when the actual match played out it did not seem as if Minato would need to suicide and he was decisively besting Ei

The list goes on and on.




> dude, you gotta read my posts in that thread again. I didn't see an argument where someone was trying to say 7th gated Gai > BM Naruto, the only one i saw was with movement speed 7th gated Gai > BM Naruto. And if you looked at my response to that, i admitted there are 2 options:
> 1) 7th gated Gai's movement speed had been retconned since then
> 2) BM Naruto's speed > 7th gated Gai's max speed if Naruto uses shunshin
> 
> And I think either of those are very plausible explanations which take into account the feats and while staying true to the explicit statement.


Retcon just seems to me to be the universal excuse for when "feats" don't match how the characters are clearly being indicated to be portrayed. And yes there were people in that thread arguing 7th-Gate Gai > BM-Naruto.



> here are tons of unknowns in the naruto manga, but simply not knowing something doesn't mean that we can't try to find the best explanation of the evidence. Lots of characters may have lots of jutsus, *but we see that they hardly use more than their bread-and-butters*. For characters who don't have as much opportunity as others to flesh out their good jutsu, we can give them more leway and be more flexible with them. The amount of flexibility we give them should also be a factor of their portrayal.


I don't think the bold can be substantiated whatsoever. We constantly see characters use new Jutsu, even heavily featured ones. And when it comes to trying to find the best explanation, that would be portrayal as we don't have to worry about playing a guessing game every single time we say X-character can't counter Y-character's Jutsu/ability, as we do with feats.



> Yeah, but in a battledome thread, outside help is restricted. Thus can you now see how evaluating an argument in a battledome thread based on purely what would happen isn't the best way to go?


It seems like your mixing two issues to me. On one hand your arguing plot and on the other your arguing NBD. Like I said Kishi would not have Part I Naruto win. If were talking in the context of plot he'd be saved; if not than he'd just loose outright.



> Can you give me another? Give me the one you think is the best or one of the best examples.


Personally I like the Hebi-Sasuke vs Deidara example. Before that fight happened based on "feats" it would seem like Deidara had the edge as Hebi-Sasuke was all CQC (maybe a bit mid-range oriented), but than when the battle actually played out, it was the reverse Deidara was at a disadvantage.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> How is who they are fighting not part of the situation?


I didn't say that who they are fighting isn't part of the situation.  I said that it's only the situation that matters, not who they are fighting.  If who they are fighting is part of the situation, then the situation would take into account that factor, but it would also take into account all the other factors that contribute to the decision that is made.  Thus, it's the situation that matters, not who they are fighting.



Turrin said:


> But all you gave was an assertion as well...


you gotta tell me what you are referring to.



Turrin said:


> In terms of support, there are tons of instances where on paper it seems as if one character would hold an advantage, but than that does not turn out to be the case.
> 
> Kidomaru vs Neji - Long-Rang Fighter vs CQC specialist, seems as if Kidomaru holds the advantage; Neji wins.
> 
> ...


Kidomaru vs Neiji, *neiji explicitly states Kidomaru is more powerful than himself.*  Neiji winning in a fight where he explicitly states he is weaker is perfect evidence that the victor isn't necessarily the stronger foe.

Deidara vs Sasuke - chidori lance?  Super speed?  Lightning affinity?  The fact that deidara runs out of clay relatively quickly?  Or the fact that KN0 Naruto can blindside a flying deidara?  CS2 Sasuke has wings.  A ranged jutsu that would end team 7 in a single shot?  Orochimaru's powers?  Plus Sasuke hadn't been in a real fight at that time yet.  

Minato vs Ei - Minato's rasengan > Naruto's rasengan = Sasuke's chidori = dead Ei if aimed at Ei's head/neck/spine.

Plus, for people who we don't have much info on, we can weigh them using portrayal more.



Turrin said:


> Retcon just seems to me to be the universal excuse for when "feats" don't match how the characters are clearly being indicated to be portrayed. And yes there were people in that thread arguing 7th-Gate Gai > BM-Naruto.


No way.  Retcons apply to seemingly irreconcilable discrepancies between feats vs hype, feats vs feats, and hype vs hype.  



Turrin said:


> I don't think the bold can be substantiated whatsoever. We constantly see characters use new Jutsu, even heavily featured ones. And when it comes to trying to find the best explanation, that would be portrayal as we don't have to worry about playing a guessing game every single time we say X-character can't counter Y-character's Jutsu/ability, as we do with feats.


We constantly see characters use new jutsu because those said characters are getting better over time.  The characters that aren't the mains or the ones that grow for the most part don't get new stuff.  Plus, like i said it works both ways.  Also, the bolded is true.  Madara pretty much only uses susanoo, rinnegan techs and mokuton.  Hashirama pretty much only uses mokuton to fight, sealing jutsu to restrain etc.  These characters when put in a legitimate fight display their core moveset.  Sure it might not account for all the possible jutsu they might have, but they aren't going to be pulling out things that completely change the game.  So it's not a guessing game about "hey maybe they might have something that they haven't shown yet", it's "they probably don't have something that would make a huge impact on the outcome of this fight given when we know they have so far".  Is it foolproof?  No, but nothing is.



Turrin said:


> It seems like your mixing two issues to me. On one hand your arguing plot and on the other your arguing NBD. Like I said Kishi would not have Part I Naruto win. If were talking in the context of plot he'd be saved; if not than he'd just lose outright.


...bretheren.there aren't two issues.  We are discussing what's the best way to evaluate a versus match in the dome correct?  If portrayal is trying to see what would happen if a fight were to happen in the manga, yet the stipulations of the NBD match make it impossible for it to occur in the manga given the plot, then the portrayal argument can't be applied to the fight unless you go ahead and concede that the portrayal argument doesn't necessarily lead to what would happen in the manga or what kishi would have happen.



Turrin said:


> Personally I like the Hebi-Sasuke vs Deidara example. Before that fight happened based on "feats" it would seem like Deidara had the edge as Hebi-Sasuke was all CQC (maybe a bit mid-range oriented), but than when the battle actually played out, it was the reverse Deidara was at a disadvantage.


Hebi Sasuke hadn't gotten a legitimate fight yet, deidara got a decent one against gaara and some showings against team 7.  Once characters are put into good fights, we get a general sense of what's their core jutsu are.  Might they have more at that time?  Sure, but they won't make much of a difference or aren't best suited for those scenarios.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 13, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> I didn't say that who they are fighting isn't part of the situation.  I said that it's only the situation that matters, not who they are fighting.  *If who they are fighting is part of the situation, then the situation would take into account that factor,* but it would also take into account all the other factors that contribute to the decision that is made.  Thus, it's the situation that matters, not who they are fighting.


But that is always part of the situation; so who they are fighting always matters.



> Kidomaru vs Neiji, neiji explicitly states Kidomaru is more powerful than himself. Neiji winning in a fight where he explicitly states he is weaker is perfect evidence that the victor isn't necessarily the stronger foe.
> 
> Deidara vs Sasuke - chidori lance? Super speed? Lightning affinity? The fact that deidara runs out of clay relatively quickly? Or the fact that KN0 Naruto can blindside a flying deidara? CS2 Sasuke has wings. A ranged jutsu that would end team 7 in a single shot? Orochimaru's powers? Plus Sasuke hadn't been in a real fight at that time yet.
> 
> ...



1) My point exactly; it looked like Kidomaru had the advantage on paper, but Neji was actually ideal for defeating him. As for the strength thing; Neji summoned out more strength that was the whole point of the Naruto scene.

2) Almost all the things you cite we learned about during or after the Deidara battle not before. So I think you mistook what I was saying. I was saying that we going into the Deidara fight it looked like Deidara was on paper a bad match for Sasuke, but that wasn't the case.

3) But Minato didn't even use Rasengan he used a Kunai and the scene still was written as if Ei was in danger. 



> No way. Retcons apply to seemingly irreconcilable discrepancies between feats vs hype, feats vs feats, and hype vs hyp


Give and example.




> We constantly see characters use new jutsu because those said characters are getting better over time. The characters that aren't the mains or the ones that grow for the most part don't get new stuff


Kisame wasn't a main character, yet he kept showing more Jutsu as he got more panel time. The Sannin aren't main characters, yet they keep showing more jutsu (or through extension their summons do). Deidara is not a main character yet he kept showing more jutsu as he got more panel time. Hiruzen isn't a main character yet he keeps showing more jutsu as he gets more panel time. The list goes on and on.



> Also, the bolded is true. Madara pretty much only uses susanoo, rinnegan techs and mokuton. Hashirama pretty much only uses mokuton to fight, sealing jutsu to restrain etc. These characters when put in a legitimate fight display their core moveset. Sure it might not account for all the possible jutsu they might have,


Just saying a character has broad categories of abilities, doesn't tell us much. We'd need the specific Jutsu to compare them to another character based on "Feats". So saying Madara uses Mokuton, is pointless without knowing the Mokuton Techniques he uses. And if you want to look at Madara, that's cool, but Madara actually exemplifies what i'm talking about perfectly. Madara fought the long-range division, Onoki, Gaara, and "dat"-clone; but still he showed more new Jutsu later when he fought the Gokage. Than he showed more new Jutsu when he fought Naruto/Kakashi/B/Gai/Etc.... Or let's look at Hashirama; despite having tons of time to accumulate feats through his Edo incarnation, Yamato, and Madara; he still showed new feats in the flashback VOTE battle; than after that he still showed new feats in the current battle. 



> but they aren't going to be pulling out things that completely change the game.


This is baseless; almost every match in the manga comes down to Jutsu we haven't seen before at least being used alongside ones we have.



> ..bretheren.there aren't two issues. We are discussing what's the best way to evaluate a versus match in the dome correct? If portrayal is trying to see what would happen if a fight were to happen in the manga, yet the stipulations of the NBD match make it impossible for it to occur in the manga given the plot, then the portrayal argument can't be applied to the fight unless you go ahead and concede that the portrayal argument doesn't necessarily lead to what would happen in the manga or what kishi would have happen.


Portrayal reflects who Kishi considers the strong or superior ninja; the stronger/superior ninja usually wins in a fight with an inferior one; inside or outside the plot this remains ttrue. So that applies to the NBD. What you were talking about is what would happen if Part I Naruto fought Madara; to which I said based on portrayal he would loose. Than you said for the sake of the plot he couldn't die, this is a separate issue than whether or not he'd loose, as in the plot and NBD he'd loose but just in the plot be saved by some other character.



> Hebi Sasuke hadn't gotten a legitimate fight yet, deidara got a decent one against gaara and some showings against team 7. Once characters are put into good fights, we get a general sense of what's their core jutsu are. Might they have more at that time? Sure, but they won't make much of a difference or aren't best suited for those scenarios.


Here's the thing you need to define a "good-fight" for me then, because Sasuke up until the Deidara fight had more panel time to show off feats than many of the character match ups discussed in the NBD. Sasuke had panel time against Team 7, against Orochimaru, and recruiting taka members (this is w/o even counting Part I shit).  Look at characters like the Edo Kages, they had 1 (2 chapter battle), yet they are commonly discussed on the basis of feats; look at Hiruzen he hasn't had as much panel time to fight as Sasuke, and he is another commonly discussed character in the BD based on feats. This list  goes on and on.

Or to give another example look at Orochimaru. He had his FOD Duel against Team 7, his Duel against Hiruzen, his duel against Sannin, his duel against KN-Naruto,  his duel against Sasuke, his duel against Itachi, and still he is showing of new Jutsu/abilities. 

Than we could look at Tsunade. She had her duel against Kabuto, her duel against Orochimaru, time in the Pain arc, her duel against Madara, and still her (& her summon) are showing off new feats.

Etc....

So at exactly what point has a character had enough panel time where we can be sure a character doesn't have anything left that can have significance in a certain match up. As almost no character in the BD has had as much panel time as Orochimaru and he consistently shows new shit.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> 1) My point exactly; it looked like Kidomaru had the advantage on paper, but Neji was actually ideal for defeating him. As for the strength thing; Neji summoned out more strength that was the whole point of the Naruto scene.


Neiji's statement is a power level statement, so kidomaru didn't just have the advantage on paper, his level is literally above neiji's own.  Neiji didn't summon more strength, he's at the exact same level as he was throughout the entire match, he use a tactic that allowed him to beat an opponent without knowledge on that ability by basically committing suicide.  And suicide tactics have a chance of closing the gap between weaker people and stronger foes especially when the stronger one underestimates the weaker one.



Turrin said:


> 2) Almost all the things you cite we learned about during or after the Deidara battle not before. So I think you mistook what I was saying. I was saying that we going into the Deidara fight it looked like Deidara was on paper a bad match for Sasuke, but that wasn't the case.


Chidori lance: orochimaru on a bed.
Deidara uses clay, what element do you think that is?
Deidara ran out of clay against Gaara
KN0 blindsiding deidara?
Orochimaru's powers after absorbing him?
Sasuke's kirin attempt?



Turrin said:


> 3) But Minato didn't even use Rasengan he used a Kunai and the scene still was written as if Ei was in danger.


Irrelevant what he ended up using.  The scene illustrated that Minato would defeat Ei quite handily.  The featwise argument has no obstacles coming to that conclusion since rasengan gives minato the ability to do so.  So by feats and by portrayal, Minato would defeat Ei with more or less the same difficulty.



Turrin said:


> Give and example.


hold on on this one.




Turrin said:


> Kisame wasn't a main character, yet he kept showing more Jutsu as he got more panel time. The Sannin aren't main characters, yet they keep showing more jutsu (or through extension their summons do). Deidara is not a main character yet he kept showing more jutsu as he got more panel time. Hiruzen isn't a main character yet he keeps showing more jutsu as he gets more panel time. The list goes on and on.


Kisame wasn't in a major fight until he fought bee.  Jiraiya was drugged orochimaru was handicapped, Tsunade had her blood issues, and how would the jutsu they've shown at that time affected the outcome of a match between another shinobi at that time?  Deidara was fleshed out in his fight against sasuke.  What jutsu did hiruzen use as an edo that would drastically affect the outcome of a match against him?  

The list does not go on and on.  Bee hardly shows any gamechanging jutsu.  Ei = nothing.  oonoki = nothing.  Gaara = nothing.  Shukaku.  Kakuzu, Sasori, Madara, Hashirama, Minato, Itachi etc.  The rest of the characters are pretty much characters who progress as the story goes along.



Turrin said:


> Just saying a character has broad categories of abilities, doesn't tell us much. We'd need the specific Jutsu to compare them to another character based on "Feats". So saying Madara uses Mokuton, is pointless without knowing the Mokuton Techniques he uses. And if you want to look at Madara, that's cool, but Madara actually exemplifies what i'm talking about perfectly. Madara fought the long-range division, Onoki, Gaara, and "dat"-clone; but still he showed more new Jutsu later when he fought the Gokage. Than he showed more new Jutsu when he fought Naruto/Kakashi/B/Gai/Etc.... Or let's look at Hashirama; despite having tons of time to accumulate feats through his Edo incarnation, Yamato, and Madara; he still showed new feats in the flashback VOTE battle; than after that he still showed new feats in the current battle.


What's madara's strongest mokuton jutsus?  that's what you put people up against when facing him.  Did Naruto, oonoki, gaara and dat-clone give madara a very hard fight?  No, then why would that reflect madara's full power?  Madara explicitly states that PS is his full power, thus if you want to see if a character beats him or not, put them against Madara using PS.  

Hashirama's most difficult fight is the VoTe fight, that's how you evaluate what it would take to beat him.  Sure he may have lesser jutsus that he can use that are different than what he used at VoTe, but it doesn't matter as we see his strongest stuff at VoTe thus you overcome that stuff and you overcome hashirama.



Turrin said:


> This is baseless; almost every match in the manga comes down to Jutsu we haven't seen before at least being used alongside ones we have.


That's simply because when we do get a legitimate match in the manga, it's a character's first time being put in a really difficult fight.  The big fights are usually the good guy who (who's arsenal we pretty much know) against the mysterious villain, that's the stuff that sells.  Thus a featwise argument could hardly be made for the villain until after that fight.



Turrin said:


> *Portrayal reflects who Kishi considers the strong or superior ninja; the stronger/superior ninja usually wins in a fight with an inferior one*; inside or outside the plot this remains ttrue. So that applies to the NBD. What you were talking about is what would happen if Part I Naruto fought Madara; to which I said based on portrayal he would loose. Than you said for the sake of the plot he couldn't die, this is a separate issue than whether or not he'd loose, as in the plot and NBD he'd loose but just in the plot be saved by some other character.


The bolded is obviously false.  Portrayal reflects who YOU THINK kishi considers the stronger or superior ninja.  If you admit that the win/loss record is influenced by plot, then how can you tell via the win/loss record who kishi actually considers stronger or weaker, and which ones are influenced by plot?  



Turrin said:


> Here's the thing you need to define a "good-fight" for me then, because Sasuke up until the Deidara fight had more panel time to show off feats than many of the character match ups discussed in the NBD. Sasuke had panel time against Team 7, against Orochimaru, and recruiting taka members (this is w/o even counting Part I shit).  Look at characters like the Edo Kages, they had 1 (2 chapter battle), yet they are commonly discussed on the basis of feats; look at Hiruzen he hasn't had as much panel time to fight as Sasuke, and he is another commonly discussed character in the BD based on feats. This list  goes on and on.


Yet in all of those instances, he's never been pushed.  You can put current Naruto in a hundred fights against people who are chuunin level and you'd never even get a glimpse of his sennin mode, let alone KCM or BM powers.



Turrin said:


> Or to give another example look at Orochimaru. He had his FOD Duel against Team 7, his Duel against Hiruzen, his duel against Sannin, his duel against KN-Naruto,  his duel against Sasuke, his duel against Itachi, and still he is showing of new Jutsu/abilities.


What new jutsu/abilities did he show?  temporarily binding spiral zetsu with the cursed seal?  None of that is game-changing, in addition to that, the manga explicitly stated he was in a weakened state at all times until he got back his arms post resurrection.  



Turrin said:


> Than we could look at Tsunade. She had her duel against Kabuto, her duel against Orochimaru, time in the Pain arc, her duel against Madara, and still her (& her summon) are showing off new feats.


Because characters don't get stronger over time....  because tsunade wasn't suffering from an impairment when she fought kabuto.  Also, during the time when she was up against orochimaru and kabuto, based on the information we have of the other characters, how would that not reflect accurately her general level or how well she fairs against them?



Turrin said:


> So at exactly what point has a character had enough panel time where we can be sure a character doesn't have anything left that can have significance in a certain match up. As almost no character in the BD has had as much panel time as Orochimaru and he consistently shows new shit.


Stop giving me easy stuff to refute.  Orochimaru was sick, couldn't even use handseals, and thus a featwise argument would have that as a stipulation for what he's capable of until he regains his arms.  In addition to that, based on the time in which we have X knowledge on orochimaru, we also have Y knowledge on other characters, so tell me how does a feat-based matchup of orochimaru vs those other characters falsify the manga?

Once a character is given a legitimate fight where he's severely pushed, or is up against a foe in which he doesn't hold back, i think is when we can evaluate them he doesn't have stuff that would be gamechanging.  In addition to that, the lack of knowledge balances out.  We might not have as much knowledge on jiraiya after his fight with oro as we do when he fights pain, but neither do we have as much knowledge on the other characters as well.  Based on his fight with oro, i don't see how you'd get a way off impression of how he'd do against another powerful character in part 1.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 13, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Neiji's statement is a power level statement, so kidomaru didn't just have the advantage on paper, his level is literally above neiji's own.  Neiji didn't summon more strength, he's at the exact same level as he was throughout the entire match, he use a tactic that allowed him to beat an opponent without knowledge on that ability by basically committing suicide.  And suicide tactics have a chance of closing the gap between weaker people and stronger foes especially when the stronger one underestimates the weaker one.


I fail to see how this point addresses mine. Again my point was that on paper Kidomaru seems like a bad match up for Neji due to his long-range style. In practice though Neji mitigated this by channeling his Jyuuken through Kidomaru's webs. Something we hadn't seen he was capable of before the fight. Regardless of who was stronger or not, this still illustrates a very clear example of where on paper a character seemed to be a bad match up, but it was not the case.



> Chidori lance: orochimaru on a bed.
> Deidara uses clay, what element do you think that is?
> Deidara ran out of clay against Gaara
> KN0 blindsiding deidara?
> ...


- Yes a few feet, How is that helpful against Deidara's range?
- Clay could have been a Kekkai Genkai. And even if we assumed it was Doton; than the attacks usually should be of equal strength to counteract each other yet; the simplest of Raiton completely nullified all of Diedara's bombs. Basically a much more devastating counter.
-  What does running out of clay have to with anything
- Deidara Kwarimi'd out of KN0 Naruto's attack
- How much of Orochimaru's powers Hebi Sasuke got was unknown; it's still a bit unknown
- Sasuke's Kirin attempt told us nothing about that Jutsu back them



> Irrelevant what he ended up using. The scene illustrated that Minato would defeat Ei quite handily. The featwise argument has no obstacles coming to that conclusion since rasengan gives minato the ability to do so.


How is it irrelevant lol. By feats Ei should be able to tank Minato's Kunai attack with no problem. By what's written he seemed to be in danger. This shows an extremely clear disconnect between what is written and a feats based analysis.



> Kisame wasn't in a major fight until he fought bee.


But than he still showed new Jutsu/abilities after that 

Plus please define a "Major-Fight"



> Jiraiya was drugged orochimaru was handicapped, Tsunade had her blood issues,


So your saying a Ninja has to have a battle fighting at  100% or we can't evaluate them based on "feats". Okay so I'll keep that in mind as one of the conditions for your definition of a "good-fight".



> Deidara was fleshed out in his fight against sasuke


So he wasn't fleshed out enough in his prior encounters for us to evaluate him? So again I'll keep in mind that someone needs to have more panel time to be fleshed out than Deidara had pre Sasuke duel before we can evaluate them on "feats".



> What jutsu did hiruzen use as an edo that would drastically affect the outcome of a match against him?


His 5 Elemental combo against Shinsuusenju?



> The list does not go on and on. Bee hardly shows any gamechanging jutsu


According to you B vs Kisame was a "major fight". Yet B shows important shit after that; Continuos Bijuudama, Hachimaki, and Fuuinjutsu Octopus Hold. That stuff isn't "gamechanging". This is of course assuming we exclude B vs Taka as a "major-fight", which again I feel is ill defined on your part.



> Ei = nothin oonoki = nothing. Gaara = nothing. Shukaku. Kakuzu, Sasori, Madara, Hashirama, Minato, Itachi etc. The rest of the characters are pretty much characters who progress as the story goes along.


I'm not going to go through everyone of these characters, but nothing since when?. Because all of these characters have shown a plethora of new abilities/Jutsu that they didn't show in their first battle. So by shown nothing, I can only assume you mean since their last battle in the manga, in-which case, the issue is that most of them haven't had a battle since then or their last battle was actually a not long ago. 

I mean you say Gaara showed nothing, but he fought in the Kages arc, than showed new shit against Yondaime Kazekage, than showed new shit against Nindaime Mizukage, than showed new shit against Madara. So I can only assume you mean he hasn't shown anything in the last 10 chapters lol. 



> What's madara's strongest mokuton jutsus? that's what you put people up against when facing him. Hashirama's most difficult fight is the VoTe fight, that's how you evaluate what it would take to beat him. Sure he may have lesser jutsus that he can use that are different than what he used at VoTe, but it doesn't matter as we see his strongest stuff at VoTe thus you overcome that stuff and you overcome hashirama.


I don't see how you can assert someones strongest Jutsu are all that matters. Sasuke managed to fight Danzo to a draw in large part due to a specifically weak Genjutsu. Yet according to you that shouldn't have made a difference.



> Did Naruto, oonoki, gaara and dat-clone give madara a very hard fight? No, then why would that reflect madara's full power?


So a person needs to pushed to use their full power, for use to evaluate them based on "feats". Okay I'll put that down on the ever growing list of qualifications someone needs to meet to be evaluate based on feats.



> That's simply because when we do get a legitimate match in the manga, it's a character's first time being put in a really difficult fight. The big fights are usually the good guy who (who's arsenal we pretty much know) against the new villain. Thus a featwise argument could hardly be made for the villain until after that fight.


Kakashi had a major fight against Kakuzu. He didn't show Raiden in that fight. Later he showed Raiden. Are you saying Raiden doesn't matter. And that is one example out of dozens.



> The bolded is obviously false. Portrayal reflects who YOU THINK kishi considers the stronger or superior ninja.


No portrayal reflects who Kishi considers the stronger and superior ninja. Our interpretations of that portrayal can at times be incorrect, but that is a risk we must take with everything.



> . If you admit that the win/loss record is influenced by plot, then how can you tell via the win/loss record who kishi actually considers stronger or weaker, and which ones are influenced by plot?


Because when the win/losses are effected by plot, Kishi will give a character an advantage or disadvantage. Than we simply have to account for that.



> Yet in all of those instances, he's never been pushed. You can put current Naruto in a hundred fights against people who are chuunin level and you'd never even get a glimpse of his sennin mode, let alone KCM or BM powers


Really because Naruto went up against Chuunin in the war and use Sennin Modo and KCM. 



> What new jutsu/abilities did he show? temporarily binding spiral zetsu with the cursed seal? None of that is game-changing,.


Reviving from a CS. Also CS binding is clearly very important to consider as it was in part due to that Jutsu which allowed Team Taka to get passed spiral. Plus Orochimaru is still around and likely to show even more.



> in addition to that, the manga explicitly stated he was in a weakened state at all times until he got back his arms post resurrectionStop giving me easy stuff to refute. Orochimaru was sick, couldn't even use handseals, and thus a featwise argument would have that as a stipulation for what he's capable of until he regains his arms. In addition to that, based on the time in which we have X knowledge on orochimaru, we also have Y knowledge on other characters, so tell me how does a feat-based matchup of orochimaru vs those other characters falsify the manga?


Let's look at this objectively:

Orochimaru had no arms and was in a weakened state against KN-Naruto and was pushed extensively. However later while still in a weakened state and still having no arms against Sasuke and pushed to his breaking point, he than showed WSM a new and important aspect of his arsenal. Than against Itachi while weakened and having no arms he showed Yamata no Orochi a new and important aspect of his arsenal. 

It's not like he wasn't pushed extensively in these battles and it's not like he got his arms back so we can justify him pulling out new Jutsu based on that. He was in the same condition every time, if not in a better condition against KN-Naruto, yet he still was pulling out new Jutsu. According to your own logic this shouldn't have happened, but it did. 



> Once a character is given a legitimate fight where he's severely pushed, or is up against a foe in which he doesn't hold back, i think is when we can evaluate them he doesn't have stuff that would be gamechanging


Orochimaru was in a legit fight against Hiruzen and was pushed almost to death. Yet he showed tons of new shit that is important to consider when discussing "feats" after that. Same thing could be said about Hiruzen, he was in a legit fight with Orochimaru and pushed to death, but he has shown new Jutsu which are important to consider when discussing feats since then. Same thing can be said about Gaara he was in a legit fight against Madara, pushed to near death, yet he later showed a new ability like internal sand control that would be important to consider in a feats based discussion. Same thing can be said about Jiraiya, he was in a legit battle against Pain and in-fact killed, yet his Summons continue to show new jutsu that would be important when discussing shit based on "feats" after that. Same thing can be said about Kakashi who was pushed to near death against Kakuzu, but showed important Jutsu to consider in a feat based discussion like Raiden, Rarikiri Wolf, Raiton-KB, etc... after that



> In addition to that, the lack of knowledge balances out. We might not have as much knowledge on jiraiya after his fight with oro as we do when he fights pain, but neither do we have as much knowledge on the other characters as well. Based on his fight with oro, i don't see how you'd get a way off impression of how he'd do against another powerful character in part 1.


Lack of knowledge does not balance out. As I told you before, something that is unknown is simply unknown. For example just because we have two variables in an equation it doesn't mean the two variables are equal. X + Y + 2 + 3 =  ? We can't just assume X & Y are both equal to 2 and than say the solution to the equation is 7. Logic doesn't work that way.


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## Santoryu (Apr 13, 2014)

At this point in the story Kakashi is significantly superior, and the fact that he's tactically superior doesn't bode well for his opponent. 

Kakashi wins 10/10.Restrict Kakashi's MS and this would be more balanced.


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## ueharakk (Apr 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I fail to see how this point addresses mine. Again my point was that on paper Kidomaru seems like a bad match up for Neji due to his long-range style. In practice though Neji mitigated this by channeling his Jyuuken through Kidomaru's webs. Something we hadn't seen he was capable of before the fight. Regardless of who was stronger or not, this still illustrates a very clear example of where on paper a character seemed to be a bad match up, but it was not the case.


Um, the whole point of the portrayal argument is to see who kishi thinks is stronger, that's your own words, so Kidomaru losing a canon fight against someone kishi explicitly stated is weaker than him is a blow to your entire argument.  

in addition to that, a feat-based argument isn't merely a resume vs resume comparison.  It takes into account everything such as speed, reactions, how specific jutsu interact with another, what would be a person's answer for X jutsu etc.  We don't even know the real extent of kidomaru's abilities until after he displays them in that fight, thus if a feat-based argument was made before that, it would be made with the knowledge.

Now i have a question for you.  What would PORTRAYAL say about a neiji vs kidomaru fight before they begin to fight?



Turrin said:


> - Yes a few feet, How is that helpful against Deidara's range?
> - Clay could have been a Kekkai Genkai. And even if we assumed it was Doton; than the attacks usually should be of equal strength to counteract each other yet; the simplest of Raiton completely nullified all of Diedara's bombs. Basically a much more devastating counter.
> -  What does running out of clay have to with anything
> - Deidara Kwarimi'd out of KN0 Naruto's attack
> ...


- *a few feet eh?* and that's casual sasuke.
- The raiton that sasuke used to nullify deidara's bombs were perfectly consistent with the power relation of affinities, if you don't agree give me an example.
- IDK maybe because Deidara can't use any bombs if he runs out of clay, don't make me explain the blatantly obvious
- he only did that after naruto blitzed him and slammed him into the ground which shows speed relation
- Doesn't matter if it's unknown
- Um it obviously told us that he has a jutsu capable of ending the entire team 7 from that range.  

goodness don't just type stuff, think about it.



Turrin said:


> How is it irrelevant lol. By feats Ei should be able to tank Minato's Kunai attack with no problem. By what's written he seemed to be in danger. This shows an extremely clear disconnect between what is written and a feats based analysis.


It's irrelevant because the whole point of our discussion is to show how feats would give us the victor of a versus match.  Minato, by feats, beats ei just as easily as he would have done in canon, therefore the feat-wise comparison stands strong.  Sure featwise, minato doesn't kill Ei with a FTG kunai before that manga panel, but all that shows is that if we were to make a minato vs Ei thread where minato couldn't use rasengan, he wouldn't have a way to harm Ei.



Turrin said:


> But than he still showed new Jutsu/abilities after that
> 
> Plus please define a "Major-Fight"


Did i ever say that kisame DIDN'T show new jutsu/abilities after that?  If not, then your post is literally meaningless as you are attacking a point that's not there.  Major fight is defined below.



Turrin said:


> So your saying a Ninja has to have a battle fighting at  100% or we can't evaluate them based on "feats". Okay so I'll keep that in mind as one of the conditions for your definition of a "good-fight".


  don't make me refute the blatantly obvious.  If a ninja doesn't have a fight at 100%, we are still given a lower limit of what they are capable of.  Thus if even while gimped they beat or can put up a good fight against another person via feats, then it becomes more likely than not that they win ungimped.  



Turrin said:


> So he wasn't fleshed out enough in his prior encounters for us to evaluate him? So again I'll keep in mind that someone needs to have more panel time to be fleshed out than Deidara had pre Sasuke duel before we can evaluate them on "feats".


Does deidara being fleshed out in his fight with sasuke mean he wasn't fleshed out enough to be compared to other characters in his previous encounters?  



Turrin said:


> His 5 Elemental combo against Shinsuusenju?


And according to you that is a game changer?



Turrin said:


> According to you B vs Kisame was a "major fight". Yet B shows important shit after that; Continuos Bijuudama, Hachimaki, and Fuuinjutsu Octopus Hold. That stuff isn't "gamechanging". This is of course assuming we exclude B vs Taka as a "major-fight", which again I feel is ill defined on your part.


I concede those jutsus are gamechanging.
However, Bee used those jutsu a good 150 chapters after his encounter with taka.  With the knowledge we had on the manga back then, how would one arrive at a fallacious feat-based argument?



Turrin said:


> I'm not going to go through everyone of these characters, but nothing since when?. Because all of these characters have shown a plethora of new abilities/Jutsu that they didn't show in their first battle. So by shown nothing, I can only assume you mean since their last battle in the manga, in-which case, the issue is that most of them haven't had a battle since then or their last battle was actually a not long ago.


I'm talking about their first actual battle that made them be serious, or go all out.  None of those people i've mentioned have shown gamechanging jutsu from that first battle till their next.  



Turrin said:


> I mean you say Gaara showed nothing, but he fought in the Kages arc, than showed new shit against Yondaime Kazekage, than showed new shit against Nindaime Mizukage, than showed new shit against Madara. So I can only assume you mean he hasn't shown anything in the last 10 chapters lol.


Gaara is a progressing character, and did he really show us new stuff against nindaime mizukage and Madara?  It's all just more sand, stronger sand shields, and better sealing jutsu all just upgrades of his past arsenal which one would expect over time from a progressing character like him.



Turrin said:


> I don't see how you can assert someones strongest Jutsu are all that matters. Sasuke managed to fight Danzo to a draw in large part due to a specifically weak Genjutsu. Yet according to you that shouldn't have made a difference.




That's because Danzou's strongest jutsu (izanagi) was outlasted by sasuke.  Thus since sasuke was able to beat danzou's strongest jutsu, he was able to kill danzou.  So that case would only work for instances where both characters lose their strongest jutsu at the same time, thus we'd have to evaluate them via their lesser jutsus.  However if your strongest jutsu can beat your opponent's strongest jutsu, you win, just like if sasuke could have held his susanoo up longer than danzou could have held izanagi up, he wouldn't have had to resort to the genjutsu, he would have just blasted danzou.



Turrin said:


> So a person needs to pushed to use their full power, for use to evaluate them based on "feats". Okay I'll put that down on the ever growing list of qualifications someone needs to meet to be evaluate based on feats.


don't make me refute the blatantly obvious.



Turrin said:


> Kakashi had a major fight against Kakuzu. He didn't show Raiden in that fight. Later he showed Raiden. Are you saying Raiden doesn't matter. And that is one example out of dozens.


With the knowledge of the manga we had at that time, no raiden would not have been a gamechanger in regards to whether kakashi would beat an opponent or not. 



Turrin said:


> No portrayal reflects who Kishi considers the stronger and superior ninja. Our interpretations of that portrayal can at times be incorrect, but that is a risk we must take with everything.


Just like feats, so why is it that you evaluate feats with a standard of certainty, yet are so lenient on portrayal?  It gets worse since there's no way you can refute portrayal because it's all subjective interpretation, the unprovable assumptions are all right next to the conclusions.



Turrin said:


> Because when the win/losses are effected by plot, Kishi will give a character an advantage or disadvantage. Than we simply have to account for that.


Wait, but that doesn't tell you who would actually win..  If a character has an outside advantage and wins, that doesn't mean that without that outside advantage, he'd lose.  And



Turrin said:


> Really because Naruto went up against Chuunin in the war and use Sennin Modo and KCM.


See posts like this tell me that you know you are wrong, but are just putting text on the page to fill it up.  You obviously know what the point i'm making is, and if you are talking about iruka, then that's easily not the only person naruto was facing, and naruto wasn't even trying to fight anyone.


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## ueharakk (Apr 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Reviving from a CS. Also CS binding is clearly very important to consider as it was in part due to that Jutsu which allowed Team Taka to get passed spiral. Plus Orochimaru is still around and likely to show even more.


How would reviving from a CS via a third party's help aid orochimaru in a 1 vs 1 versus match especially if orochimaru's senjutsu dna, someone with sasuke's knowledge and a cursed seal is required?  If a versus match with that specific of a scenario is the only thing not taken into account, then feats is doing a pretty good job.  CS binding that works specifically against hashirama's cells and binds someone like spiral zetsu for a few moments is not a gamechanger in a versus thread.



Turrin said:


> Let's look at this objectively:
> 
> Orochimaru had no arms and was in a weakened state against KN-Naruto and was pushed extensively. However later while still in a weakened state and still having no arms against Sasuke and pushed to his breaking point, he than showed WSM a new and important aspect of his arsenal. Than against Itachi while weakened and having no arms he showed Yamata no Orochi a new and important aspect of his arsenal.
> 
> It's not like he wasn't pushed extensively in these battles and it's not like he got his arms back so we can justify him pulling out new Jutsu based on that. He was in the same condition every time, if not in a better condition against KN-Naruto, yet he still was pulling out new Jutsu. According to your own logic this shouldn't have happened, but it did.


Where does my logic state that the character shouldn't be pulling out new jutsus once they've been in a good fight? 



Turrin said:


> Orochimaru was in a legit fight against Hiruzen and was pushed almost to death. Yet he showed tons of new shit that is important to consider when discussing "feats" after that. Same thing could be said about Hiruzen, he was in a legit fight with Orochimaru and pushed to death, but he has shown new Jutsu which are important to consider when discussing feats since then. Same thing can be said about Gaara he was in a legit fight against Madara, pushed to near death, yet he later showed a new ability like internal sand control that would be important to consider in a feats based discussion. Same thing can be said about Jiraiya, he was in a legit battle against Pain and in-fact killed, yet his Summons continue to show new jutsu that would be important when discussing shit based on "feats" after that. Same thing can be said about Kakashi who was pushed to near death against Kakuzu, but showed important Jutsu to consider in a feat based discussion like Raiden, Rarikiri Wolf, Raiton-KB, etc... after that


Gaara's internal sand control is only made possible by shikaku blasting it into the foe.  

Other than that, all of those things you've talked about have no play on the relationship between character matchups at the points in the manga where we lack knowledge on those specific jutsus.



Turrin said:


> Lack of knowledge does not balance out. As I told you before, something that is unknown is simply unknown. For example just because we have two variables in an equation it doesn't mean the two variables are equal. X + Y + 2 + 3 =  ? We can't just assume X & Y are both equal to 2 and than say the solution to the equation is 7. Logic doesn't work that way.


This is a perfect example of the double standard you try to pull.  On one hand, you assert a burden of proof that requires CERTAINTY on my arguments, something that no one can claim for any kind of method of evaluation for the manga.  While on the otherhand, you don't evaluate your own arguments by that same standard.  There are unknowns for every argument that people can't exactly quantify, yet does that mean every argument should be thrown out?  Obviously not.

Finally, if all you are doing is taking instances in the manga where a FEATS-ONLY argument wouldn't lead one to the exact conclusions of what happened, then that really doesn't do anything since I'm not defending feats-only arguments.  I'm defending using feats and portrayal.  Neither feats or portrayal alone gets the whole picture right, thus anyone can poke fun at specific instances of either which fail, that doesn't take away from the fact that BOTH do have their merits and are very valid methods for analyzing the manga and who'd win in a fight under specified conditions.


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Um, the whole point of the portrayal argument is to see who kishi thinks is stronger,


Yup



> that's your own words, so Kidomaru losing a canon fight against someone kishi explicitly stated is weaker than him is a blow to your entire argument.


As I stated before the superior ninja is likely to win. Showing one example where this is not the case does not suddenly make it unlikely that the superior ninja will win.

Side-Note: I also don't trust the online translation, especially for the earlier chapters, so I really need to see the Viz-Translation (or a better quality trans) of Neji's statement. Just throwing that out there as well.



> in addition to that, a feat-based argument isn't merely a resume vs resume comparison. It takes into account everything such as speed, reactions, how specific jutsu interact with another, what would be a person's answer for X jutsu etc


And all of this is built on the -- in most cases faulty -- assumption ] that character doesn't have more to their arsenal



> We don't even know the real extent of kidomaru's abilities until after he displays them in that fight, thus if a feat-based argument was made before that, it would be made with the knowledge.


When Kidomaru pulled out his bow at the end of chapter 195, it appeared as if he was going to be a bad match up for a CQC fighter like Neji; but this was disproven when in chapter 196 Neji demonstrated his ability to send Jyuukan through Kidomaru's webs. That's what i'm talking about.



> Now i have a question for you. What would PORTRAYAL say about a neiji vs kidomaru fight before they begin to fight?


I'd have to go back and re-read those chapters to see what statements, accomplishments, etc... Kidomaru had before he fought Neji. But just going off the top of my head I don't remember ether Neji or Kidomaru's portrayal really being clear at that point. We hadn't seen Neji since the CE-Exams and Kidomaru just had general hype as one of the S4 and having CS. So I probably would have gone with IDK whose going to win based on portrayal, but considering another S4 member was beaten by Choji and Neji was portrayed as one of the top rookies, the expectation would at the very least be that Kidomaru vs Neji was going to be a very good fight no matter who triumphed 



> - a few feet eh? and that's casual sasuke.
> - The raiton that sasuke used to nullify deidara's bombs were perfectly consistent with the power relation of affinities, if you don't agree give me an example.
> - IDK maybe because Deidara can't use any bombs if he runs out of clay, don't make me explain the blatantly obvious
> - he only did that after naruto blitzed him and slammed him into the ground which shows speed relation
> ...


- Yeah that's a few feet or to put it another way, a far cry from the 5m Eisou that actually caused Deidara problems in their fight
- Omoi's basic Raiton Flow, which he admits he isn't even good at countered Deidara's CO; that's how devastating raiton was to Kibaku Nendo. In most other instances if someone use a CO level Doton, like let's say mountain sandwich, it's not going to be stopped by Omoi's shitty raiton flow.
- Okay, but what does running out of clay bombs have to do with anything were talking about
- Your also ignoring Kakashi using fricking Kamui to distract him
- It absolutely does matter if it's unknown.
- No it didn't. It told us he was about to use a Jutsu that was a threat to Team 7. For all we knew at that point he could have produced a powerful CQC Jutsu and than shunshin blitz a team 7 member with it. Go back and read threads speculating on what Sasuke's "that jutsu" was and you'll see tons of different ideas. It's easy to say this shit in hindsight, but in reality no one knew for sure the specifics that your talking about and certainly theories would not count as "feats".



> It's irrelevant because the whole point of our discussion is to show how feats would give us the victor of a versus match.* Minato, by feats, beats ei just as easily as he would have done in canon*, therefore the feat-wise comparison stands strong. Sure featwise, minato doesn't kill Ei with a FTG kunai before that manga panel, but all that shows is that if we were to make a minato vs Ei thread where minato couldn't use rasengan, he wouldn't have a way to harm Ei.


So using FTG + Rasengan is just as easy as using FTG + Kunai?



> Did i ever say that kisame DIDN'T show new jutsu/abilities after that? If not, then your post is literally meaningless as you are attacking a point that's not there. Major fight is defined below.


Isn't your whole point that once a character has had a major fight we've seen the best they have to offer? Yet Kisame even after his "major fight" with B still showed he had more to offer; 1,000 Feeding Sharks & Daikodan. So unless i'm missing something that disproves your point.



> don't make me refute the blatantly obvious.


What are you refuting; your own point lol. I literally just repeated what you said and said I'd make a note off it. Than you responded by saying don't make me refute this. And you do this more than once throughout your post so WTF man?



> Does deidara being fleshed out in his fight with sasuke mean he wasn't fleshed out enough to be compared to other characters in his previous encounters?


You tell me, your the one defining the guidelines of when it's okay to judge a character by feats. I'm just trying to understand them, so than I take a look at whether they make sense or not.



> And according to you that is a game changer?


According to anyone not being disingenuous it is a game changer against many different opponents. Not only does it massively improve Hiruzen's fire power, but improves the number of clones he'd been shown to use before, and gives him full advantage of the elemental wheel.



> I concede those jutsus are gamechanging.
> However, Bee used those jutsu a good 150 chapters after his encounter with taka. With the knowledge we had on the manga back then, how would one arrive at a fallacious feat-based argument?


For example B before showing Octopus Hold had nothing that could defeat an Tensei. So based on feats, B would loose to any Edo Tensei, eventually, and at best draw with an Edo-Tensei users. However this would have been the wrong conclusion, because in reality B had a Jutsu that can deal with Tensei's immortal body (Octopus Hold).


----------



## Turrin (Apr 13, 2014)

> I'm talking about their first actual battle that made them be serious, or go all out. None of those people i've mentioned have shown gamechanging jutsu from that first battle till their next.


Tell me what their first "actually battle that made them be serious, or go all out" is in all cases, and than we can analyze this.



> Gaara is a progressing character, and did he really show us new stuff against nindaime mizukage and Madara?


Mizukage
-Suna Bushin
- Imperial Sand Coffin

Madara 
- Giant Sand Arms in a Flash w/o needing to grind Sand
- Giant Sand Bullets
- Controlling someone internally with Sand



> It's all just more sand, stronger sand shields, and better sealing jutsu all just upgrades of his past arsenal which one would expect over time from a progressing character like him.


And all of this better sand stuff matters, in terms of a "feat" based discussion. Also it's not like Gaara is learning new Jutsu between matches in the war, so to blame it on him being a progressing character is not right.



> That's because Danzou's strongest jutsu (izanagi) was outlasted by sasuke. Thus since sasuke was able to beat danzou's strongest jutsu, he was able to kill danzou. So that case would only work for instances where both characters lose their strongest jutsu at the same time, thus we'd have to evaluate them via their lesser jutsus. However if your strongest jutsu can beat your opponent's strongest jutsu, you win, just like if sasuke could have held his susanoo up longer than danzou could have held izanagi up, he wouldn't have had to resort to the genjutsu, he would have just blasted danzou.


You don't get it Sasuke beat Danzo's Izanagi through the weak Genjutsu as he was able to trick Danzo into thinking he had one of his Sharigans on his arm left for Izanagi, thus enabling him to land a hit. If Sasuke did not trick Danzo this way Danzo would have conserved his Izanagi better or used Shisui's eye for Izanagi, and Sasuke would have lost to Izanagi.

Also what technique is the best is always going to be based on the situation. Are some techniques going to be better in more situations than others, sure, and those techniques on average are better than the others, but that's not always going to be the case. 



> With the knowledge of the manga we had at that time, no raiden would not have been a gamechanger in regards to whether kakashi would beat an opponent or not.


What!? Raiden doesn't matter, are you kidding me.

But heck let's take Raiton KB for example, another technique Kakashi did not show in the Kakuzu battle but is responsible for the defeat of Asura Realm in the Pain Arc. Are you going to tell me that isn't also a game changer, even though it did just that against Pain Paths?



> Just like feats, so why is it that you evaluate feats with a standard of certainty, yet are so lenient on portrayal? It gets worse since there's no way you can refute portrayal because it's all subjective interpretation, the unprovable assumptions are all right next to the conclusions.


People's interpretation and bias are something both feats and portrayal with suffer from depending on the individual. I was never lenient in ether case as far as this specific aspect of comparing the two methods goes



> Wait, but that doesn't tell you who would actually win.. If a character has an outside advantage and wins, that doesn't mean that without that outside advantage, he'd lose. And


.
Which I why I said we need to factor in the handicap or advantage. If a character with an advantage absolutely stomps, perhaps he could have still won w/o the advantage, just less of stomp. Again it's a situation to situation based thing.



> See posts like this tell me that you know you are wrong, but are just putting text on the page to fill it up. You obviously know what the point i'm making is, and if you are talking about iruka, then that's easily not the only person naruto was facing, and naruto wasn't even trying to fight anyone.


Wait I'm wrong, because i'm telling the truth lol.... come on bro. Naruto was up against Iruka and nameless fodder and use KCM and Sennin Modo. And it's not just Naruto we have seen Kakuzu using Jingo against Fodder in the war. We saw Darui use one of his best abilities black lighting on fodder Zetsu. We saw Rookies use some of their best abilities on Juubi Fodder. Etc... 



> How would reviving from a CS via a third party's help aid orochimaru in a 1 vs 1 versus match especially if orochimaru's senjutsu dna, someone with sasuke's knowledge and a cursed seal is required?


Why have we suddenly restricted the NBD down to 1v1 matches? NBD also talks about team battles and reviving a whole new Orochimaru from a CS can be a game changer in certain matches. Orochimaru + Anko = Orochimaru reviving another version of himself from Anko's CS. For example.



> CS binding that works specifically against hashirama's cells and binds someone like spiral zetsu for a few moments is not a gamechanger in a versus thread.


Yet it was a game changer in the manga. So obviously the VS thread is doing something wrong, if there is no possibility of this changing things.



> Where does my logic state that the character shouldn't be pulling out new jutsus once they've been in a good fight?


If this is not your point, than what is it? 



> Gaara's internal sand control is only made possible by shikaku blasting it into the foe.


Gaara only needed Shukaku against super durable Madara specifically. He can blast sand bullets at people himself.



> Other than that, all of those things you've talked about have no play on the relationship between character matchups at the points in the manga where we lack knowledge on those specific jutsus.


Lack knowledge on what Jutsu. 

Hiruzen's combo against Shinshuusenju. We have knowledge
The Jutsu that Fukasaku and Shima showed after Jiriaya's death we have knowledge

etc...



> This is a perfect example of the double standard you try to pull. On one hand, you assert a burden of proof that requires CERTAINTY on my arguments, something that no one can claim for any kind of method of evaluation for the manga. While on the otherhand, you don't evaluate your own arguments by that same standard. There are unknowns for every argument that people can't exactly quantify, yet does that mean every argument should be thrown out? Obviously not.


I'm sorry, but you can't claim double standards and than argue something totally different. What your doing right now is attacking a straw-man. I never said an unknown means we should throw an argument out. What I did say was you can't just write off each characters unknown arsenals as equal as you were trying to do. 



> Finally, if all you are doing is taking instances in the manga where a FEATS-ONLY argument wouldn't lead one to the exact conclusions of what happened, then that really doesn't do anything since I'm not defending feats-only arguments. I'm defending using feats and portrayal. Neither feats or portrayal alone gets the whole picture right, thus anyone can poke fun at specific instances of either which fail, that doesn't take away from the fact that BOTH do have their merits and are very valid methods for analyzing the manga and who'd win in a fight under specified conditions.


The problem is feats adds nothing to the conversation in almost any instance of logical discussion. Portrayal on the other hand can indeed stand alone. I don't need feats to know a character whose stated to be stronger than another one, is indeed stronger. Or a character that has much better hype than another character is likely to be the superior ninja to that character Etc... Insert many more examples here.


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## Garcher (Apr 13, 2014)

Kishi would never let Kakashi win this fight, Jiraiya is potrayed clearly above him


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## Rocky (Apr 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The problem is feats adds nothing to the conversation in almost any instance of logical discussion. Portrayal on the other hand can indeed stand alone. I don't need feats to know a character whose stated to be stronger than another one, is indeed stronger. Or a character that has much better hype than another character is likely to be the superior ninja to that character Etc... Insert many more examples here.



Question.

Is the stronger Ninja actually more likely to win the fight in all cases, or does it depend on the characters in question?

The stronger character does not always win, as pointed out in ueharakk's beautiful Neji~Kido example. Naruto against the 3rd Raikage is another.

You like to dismiss feats based on the uncertainty of character movesets, yet there are great unknown factors in portrayal as well. What if a stipulation (knowledge, in Naruto's case) could change the outcome? What if a character "summons strength" and is able to pull the match out (Neji's case)?


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## ueharakk (Apr 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yup
> 
> 
> As I stated before the superior ninja is likely to win. Showing one example where this is not the case does not suddenly make it unlikely that the superior ninja will win.
> ...


fair enough, but since that's he case, can you show my argument the same leniency?  Also, i get online translations aren't necessarily correct, however, i think the person who disputes a certain online translation should be the one to do the homework on what the viz says.  



Turrin said:


> And all of this is built on the -- in most cases faulty -- assumption ] that character doesn't have more to their arsenal


cmon man, that's not the assumption, the assumption is that based on the info of the current manga has given us, their displayed arsenal would represent how they'd fair against another opponent's displayed arsenal.



Turrin said:


> When Kidomaru pulled out his bow at the end of chapter 195, it appeared as if he was going to be a bad match up for a CQC fighter like Neji; but this was disproven when in chapter 196 Neji demonstrated his ability to send Jyuukan through Kidomaru's webs. That's what i'm talking about.


dude, that's something inferred while you're in the middle of the actual fight.  Neiji is also face down on the ground and getting beaten badly, and beating neiji with ranged attacks.  Also, if the goal is to evaluate who's stronger then the feat-wise argument would be correct here, kidomaru is stronger.  Also, considering the nature of neiji's win, do you think that if the battle happened again, that kidomaru would lose more than not?



Turrin said:


> I'd have to go back and re-read those chapters to see what statements, accomplishments, etc... Kidomaru had before he fought Neji. But just going off the top of my head I don't remember ether Neji or Kidomaru's portrayal really being clear at that point. We hadn't seen Neji since the CE-Exams and Kidomaru just had general hype as one of the S4 and having CS. So I probably would have gone with IDK whose going to win based on portrayal, but considering another S4 member was beaten by Choji and Neji was portrayed as one of the top rookies, the expectation would at the very least be that Kidomaru vs Neji was going to be a very good fight no matter who triumphed


I think that's an out-of-manga inference.  Chouji only bested the weakest of the sound 4 by injesting a pill that was suppose to kill him and made him hundreds of times stronger.  As a reader, of course it's going to be a good fight, kishi isn't going to have neiji get rocked in a 1 vs 1 fight, however based on the portrayed general power levels and such, there are a bunch of statements and things like neiji getting worked by CS1 kidomaru that would lead one to believe that kidomaru is quite stronger than him.



Turrin said:


> - Yeah that's a few feet or to put it another way, a far cry from the 5m Eisou that actually caused Deidara problems in their fight


5 meters is less than 18 feet. you think orochimaru's room is much less than 18 feet long?  That blade is pretty clearly the max length.


Turrin said:


> - Omoi's basic Raiton Flow, which he admits he isn't even good at countered Deidara's CO; that's how devastating raiton was to Kibaku Nendo. In most other instances if someone use a CO level Doton, like let's say mountain sandwich, it's not going to be stopped by Omoi's shitty raiton flow.


dude... none of that info was given to us in the deidara fight... the biggest bomb sasuke diffuses is a landmine, that's C1, and he has to stab it with his sword.  


Turrin said:


> - Okay, but what does running out of clay bombs have to do with anything were talking about


It gives us information about a limitation of deidara which provides a basis for a featwise comparison.


Turrin said:


> - Your also ignoring Kakashi using fricking Kamui to distract him


Sure he used kamui, but naruto had the speed to catch up to the bird and hit deidara right when he came into the trees.  Also, sasuke has ways to distract deidara as well.



Turrin said:


> - It absolutely does matter if it's unknown.


It doesn't, all it means is when one claims he has a certain power, he can't do so with as much certainty. 



Turrin said:


> - No it didn't. It told us he was about to use a Jutsu that was a threat to Team 7. For all we knew at that point he could have produced a powerful CQC Jutsu and than shunshin blitz a team 7 member with it. Go back and read threads speculating on what Sasuke's "that jutsu" was and you'll see tons of different ideas. It's easy to say this shit in hindsight, but in reality no one knew for sure the specifics that your talking about and certainly theories would not count as "feats".


For all we know arguments are completely irrelevant as anyone can just say for all we know X scenario as a response to an argument they don't like.  What you have to do is show that your explanation is more plausible than the one being posited.  



Turrin said:


> So using FTG + Rasengan is just as easy as using FTG + Kunai?


For someone who can use a rasengan with just one hand?  Probably. 



Turrin said:


> Isn't your whole point that once a character has had a major fight we've seen the best they have to offer? Yet Kisame even after his "major fight" with B still showed he had more to offer; 1,000 Feeding Sharks & Daikodan. So unless i'm missing something that disproves your point.


No that's not the whole point, it's that after they have a major fight, we get enough info to put them against other people with the knowledge we have at that time in the manga.



Turrin said:


> What are you refuting; your own point lol. I literally just repeated what you said and said I'd make a note off it. Than you responded by saying don't make me refute this. And you do this more than once throughout your post so WTF man?


Dude, i never said that a ninja has to be at 100% in order for us to evaluate them via feats, and i then go on to explain why....



Turrin said:


> You tell me, your the one defining the guidelines of when it's okay to judge a character by feats. I'm just trying to understand them, so than I take a look at whether they make sense or not.


rhetorical question.  The answer is yes.



Turrin said:


> According to anyone not being disingenuous it is a game changer against many different opponents. Not only does it massively improve Hiruzen's fire power, but improves the number of clones he'd been shown to use before, and gives him full advantage of the elemental wheel.


Then that means hiruzen has been retconned from part 1 if he's able to use more clones than before, thus i don't see how a featbased argument can be responsible for something that defies an explicit manga statement.



Turrin said:


> For example B before showing Octopus Hold had nothing that could defeat an Tensei. So based on feats, B would loose to any Edo Tensei, eventually, and at best draw with an Edo-Tensei users. However this would have been the wrong conclusion, because in reality B had a Jutsu that can deal with Tensei's immortal body (Octopus Hold).


that's not a really big deal.  If the thread was a battledome one, bee would have sealing tags, if it was in the manga, bee would have someone to help him seal.  Also, being able to seal or not seal the edo tensei wouldn't take away from the who kishi believes is stronger which is the goal of the evaluation.


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## ueharakk (Apr 13, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Tell me what their first "actually battle that made them be serious, or go all out" is in all cases, and than we can analyze this.


oonoki's would probably be against muu.  Madara's would be against Hashirama or at the end against the gokage.  Minato's would be against obito.  Ei's would be against Sasuke.  



Turrin said:


> Mizukage
> -Suna Bushin
> - Imperial Sand Coffin


he pretty much did suna bunshins against sasuke and lee in the chuunin exams.  Imperial sand coffin is just a greater sand burial.



Turrin said:


> Madara
> - Giant Sand Arms in a Flash w/o needing to grind Sand
> - Giant Sand Bullets
> - Controlling someone internally with Sand


Why do you say w/o needing to grind sand?  we're told what he needs to do in order to make more sand than is in his gourd, he either did it offpanel or used some of shukaku's.
Giant sand bullets is a collaberation with shuukaku
controlling someone internally only happens if he can use the collaberation juts.



Turrin said:


> And all of this better sand stuff matters, in terms of a "feat" based discussion. Also it's not like Gaara is learning new Jutsu between matches in the war, so to blame it on him being a progressing character is not right.


he could have learned the first two techs between the 5 kage summit and the war.  Also, being a progressive character still explains it even if its midwar.  Pretty sure naruto didn't know SM COFRS before the war.



Turrin said:


> You don't get it Sasuke beat Danzo's Izanagi through the weak Genjutsu as he was able to trick Danzo into thinking he had one of his Sharigans on his arm left for Izanagi, thus enabling him to land a hit. If Sasuke did not trick Danzo this way Danzo would have conserved his Izanagi better or used Shisui's eye for Izanagi, and Sasuke would have lost to Izanagi.


No, Sasuke beat Danzou through the weak genjutsu.  Sasuke beat Izanagi by camping in susanoo and spamming attacks till it ran out.  Danzou couldn't have conserved his izanagi better, Sasuke was constantly hammering him with attacks in order to force him to hold it.



Turrin said:


> Also what technique is the best is always going to be based on the situation. Are some techniques going to be better in more situations than others, sure, and those techniques on average are better than the others, but that's not always going to be the case.


Sure, but my arguments don't claim to be 100% certain just like yours don't.  However, what's the chance that someone has an all out battle and doesn't show a jutsu that would allow them to win in a situation where their strongest power loses?  Not more plausible than not.



Turrin said:


> What!? Raiden doesn't matter, are you kidding me.
> 
> But heck let's take Raiton KB for example, another technique Kakashi did not show in the Kakuzu battle but is responsible for the defeat of Asura Realm in the Pain Arc. Are you going to tell me that isn't also a game changer, even though it did just that against Pain Paths?


No, i don't think it would be a gamechanger.  Also, kakashi is a progressing character, and the pain arc is almost a hundred chapters after the immortals arc, so he could have just developed that jutsu. 



Turrin said:


> Which I why I said we need to factor in the handicap or advantage. If a character with an advantage absolutely stomps, perhaps he could have still won w/o the advantage, just less of stomp. Again it's a situation to situation based thing.


but how do you go about factoring it?  How do you go about trying to find out how kishi feels these factors play into the victory?



Turrin said:


> Wait I'm wrong, because i'm telling the truth lol.... come on bro. Naruto was up against Iruka and nameless fodder and use KCM and Sennin Modo. And it's not just Naruto we have seen Kakuzu using Jingo against Fodder in the war. We saw Darui use one of his best abilities black lighting on fodder Zetsu. We saw Rookies use some of their best abilities on Juubi Fodder. Etc...


sigh be that way.  The point is that if naruto is up against a hundred opponents that he can stomp with base, he's not going to use sennin mode or kcm.  

And those examples, please tell me you aren't serious.  Zetsu alone are fodder, but not only are they stated to be durable, but darui took out a dozen of them in a single shot, and he needed to do it quickly since it's a war.  Same with the juubi fodders same with SA fodders, they needed to take lots of them out as fast as possible.  



Turrin said:


> Why have we suddenly restricted the NBD down to 1v1 matches? NBD also talks about team battles and reviving a whole new Orochimaru from a CS can be a game changer in certain matches. Orochimaru + Anko = Orochimaru reviving another version of himself from Anko's CS. For example.


I'm not restricting it down to a 1vs1 match, im just showing you how specific a scenario you'd have to get in order for the feat-wise argument to POTENTIALLY give you a conclusion that wouldn't follow with that factor.

Also, you'd have to argue that orochimaru can revive another version of himself from Anko's CS, I didn't get that there could be two versions of himself existing at the same time.



Turrin said:


> Yet it was a game changer in the manga. So obviously the VS thread is doing something wrong, if there is no possibility of this changing things.


Yeah, in a very specific scenario involving one with hashirama's cells, the goal is just to get by (nothing like a versus thread), and Taka w/o sasuke + orochimaru, and juugo standing around doing nothing.  



Turrin said:


> Gaara only needed Shukaku against super durable Madara specifically. He can blast sand bullets at people himself.


What is that based on?



Turrin said:


> Lack knowledge on what Jutsu.
> 
> Hiruzen's combo against Shinshuusenju. We have knowledge
> The Jutsu that Fukasaku and Shima showed after Jiriaya's death we have knowledge
> ...


Example: part 1 hiruzen.  We don't have knowledge about his jutsu he used on shinsuusenjuu other than the katon.  However even without that knowledge, he's still placed accurately in part 1 when you consider what others have shown in part 1.



Turrin said:


> I'm sorry, but you can't claim double standards and than argue something totally different. What your doing right now is attacking a straw-man. I never said an unknown means we should throw an argument out. What I did say was you can't just write off each characters unknown arsenals as equal as you were trying to do.


I'm not saying that the character's unknown jutsus are equal, i said they balance out assuming there is no knowledge given at all about them knowing other jutsus.  



Turrin said:


> The problem is feats adds nothing to the conversation in almost any instance of logical discussion. Portrayal on the other hand can indeed stand alone. I don't need feats to know a character whose stated to be stronger than another one, is indeed stronger. Or a character that has much better hype than another character is likely to be the superior ninja to that character Etc... Insert many more examples here.


Dude, feats add everything to the conversation.  they allow you to directly compare characters vs characters, they give you an objective basis for quantifying certain attacks relative to others, and the general powers of attacks, they incorporate various dimensions of battles such as reaction time, physical speed, shunshin speed, strength, chakra enhanced strength, durability, and how it all factors into a fight.  

Also, I'm sure you don't need feats for those instances where you've claimed hype tells you who's stronger, and i'd agree that feats should never falsify explicit statement hype.  However, i'm talking about the implicit, the subjective hype, the hyperbole, the stuff that's not so black and white.  That's where feats come in, and that's also the entire point of the dome: to generate those kinds of grey threads.  That's where subjective portrayal fails, because for one, you'll never be able to falsify another person's interpretation, who's to say the way one person views a showing is any better or worse than yours?  Who's to say one person's interpretation of a statement is any better or worse than yours?  no one.  Feats however provide an (relatively) objective foundation for those kinds of arguments.  Is it foolproof?  no, but really no method is going to be.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin is talking nonsense anyways, portrayal is important but feats are even more so, specially in the battledome, where characters decisions aren't affected by plot but by the OP's stipulations.

Feats and portrayal have to be taken in to account, that's very true. In character, kakashi wouldn't use kamui right away, but based on his feats and recent portrayal he is fairly above jiraiya in most areas, jiraiya can't give him much trouble in base. If and when sage mode comes in, he gets sniped. Simple as that. It's been shown that kakashi will use kamui if things start looking bad and sage mode plus boss summons it's bad enough lol.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Question.
> Is the stronger Ninja actually more likely to win the fight in all cases, or does it depend on the characters in question?
> 
> The stronger character does not always win, as pointed out in ueharakk's beautiful Neji~Kido example. Naruto against the 3rd Raikage is another.


The superior ninja is more likely to win the fight in all cases; unless the author specifically has indicated their is a match up issue or has delved out handicaps/advantages. 

Kidomaru was not that much stronger than Neji (if at all, I have my doubts about the trans), that's why Neji was able pull out a win by summoning more power out via WOF and it seems implied there was one of the very few real match up issues there which gave Neji the edge (though I need the better translation to know for certain). Naruto had the advantage of help against Sandaime Raikage (& Sandaime was weaker w/o Amber Sealing Jar), it's as simple as that.



> You like to dismiss feats based on the uncertainty of character movesets, yet there are great unknown factors in portrayal as well. What if a stipulation (knowledge, in Naruto's case) could change the outcome? What if a character "summons strength" and is able to pull the match out (Neji's case)?


How is this an uncertainty? We know that knowledge and WOF effects the outcome, depending on how close the fighters are in overall ability. Why do we know that; from portrayal. How does this help support the case of the accuracy of "feats"; answer it doesn't, it actually exposes more weaknesses in the stand-point, as WOF is another intangible thing that is not accounted for in a "feats" based argument; like wise knowledge is also difficult to account for without us being aware of how a character would utilize that knowledge in specific situations or that characters entire arsenal.

With portrayal one doesn't have to worry about this shit. Whatever character the author portrays to be stronger is likely to win, it's as simple as that. If some alternative outcome happens, where one character wins by the skin of their teeth in a very specific instance, than big whoop, the conclusion was still pretty dam close. With feats you get BS conclusions that are far more off the mark than that.


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## Pein (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The superior ninja is more likely to win the fight in all cases; unless the author specifically has indicated their is a match up issue or has delved out handicaps/advantages.
> 
> Kidomaru was not that much stronger than Neji (if at all, I have my doubts about the trans), that's why Neji was able pull out a win by summoning more power out via WOF and it seems implied there was one of the very few real match up issues there which gave Neji the edge (though I need the better translation to know for certain). Naruto had the advantage of help against Sandaime Raikage (& Sandaime was weaker w/o Amber Sealing Jar), it's as simple as that.



Just checked my copy of volume 22, Neji states Kidomaru is much stronger.


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## Rocky (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin, who's portrayed stronger, an SM Naruto shadow clone, or Sandaime Raikage? 

Now if I made a Battledome thread such as:

Knowledge: Manga for Naruto, none for Raikage
Setting: Sannin Battlefield
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: None

Who would win?



> Kidomaru was not that much stronger than Neji (if at all, I have my doubts about the trans), that's why Neji was able pull out a win by summoning more power out via WOF and it seems implied there was one of the very few real match up issues there which gave Neji the edge (though I need the better translation to know for certain).



...and Pain just solved this for us. 

If Kidomaru was _much_ stronger than Neji, but Neji took him down, how can you say the stronger character will win without looking at what they can each do?


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> fair enough, but since that's he case, can you show my argument the same leniency?


I'm still trying to understand what your argument is.



> Also, i get online translations aren't necessarily correct, however, i think the person who disputes a certain online translation should be the one to do the homework on what the viz says.


Did I demand you got get the Viz Translation; no I did not.



> cmon man, that's not the assumption, the assumption is that based on the info of the current manga has given us, their displayed arsenal would represent how they'd fair against another opponent's displayed arsenal


I have no problem with that. In-fact I think it's a fun thing to discuss. But don't tell me one character beats another because of their displayed arsenals. 

Simply put there is a difference between saying; 

- By displayed arsenals character-x can beat character-y
- Character-x beats (or is likely to beat) character-y because of displayed arsenals



> dude, that's something inferred while you're in the middle of the actual fight. Neiji is also face down on the ground and getting beaten badly, and beating neiji with ranged attacks. Also, if the goal is to evaluate who's stronger then the feat-wise argument would be correct here, kidomaru is stronger. Also, considering the nature of neiji's win, do you think that if the battle happened again, that kidomaru would lose more than not?


I think your misunderstanding something. I'm talking about character match ups here, as in one character is a bad match up for another; not general strength. Kidomaru may be a bit stronger than Neji, but he's not a bad match up for Neji.



> I think that's an out-of-manga inference. Chouji only bested the weakest of the sound 4 by injesting a pill that was suppose to kill him and made him hundreds of times stronger. As a reader, of course it's going to be a good fight, kishi isn't going to have neiji get rocked in a 1 vs 1 fight, however based on the portrayed general power levels and such, there are a bunch of statements and things like neiji getting worked by CS1 kidomaru that would lead one to believe that kidomaru is quite stronger than him.


Neji was portrayed as one of the top rookies. Choji a rookie being able to beat an S4 member, would indicate that a top rookie like Neji should perform well against another S4 member. That's all based on things that were indicated in the manga.



> 5 meters is less than 18 feet. you think orochimaru's room is much less than 18 feet long? That blade is pretty clearly the max length


I do not think this length:
Nope

Is equal to this length:
Nope

Let's also remember that it was only possible for Eisou to pressure Deidara like that due to Raiton Affinity disabling the C2 land mines.



> dude... none of that info was given to us in the deidara fight... the biggest bomb sasuke diffuses is a landmine, that's C1, and he has to stab it with his sword.


Which just further illustrates my point. That before the ambush squad battle we didn't even know how big an advantage Sasuke had. Again demonstrating the limit of "feats".



> It gives us information about a limitation of deidara which provides a basis for a featwise comparison.


A limitation which had no baring on Sasuke vs Deidara.



> Sure he used kamui, but naruto had the speed to catch up to the bird and hit deidara right when he came into the trees. Also, sasuke has ways to distract deidara as well.


Kakashi blantantly said the way to deal with a long-range specialist is to have powerful long-range jutsu or a mind like Shikkamaru. Kakashi used a powerful long-range jutsu and he used intelligence to time that with Naruto's attack. Sasuke had demonstrated nether powerful long-range jutsu or a mind like Shikkamaru's. So based on feats, Deidara would have been a bad match up.



> It doesn't, all it means is when one claims he has a certain power, he can't do so with as much certainty.


Huh?



> For all we know arguments are completely irrelevant as anyone can just say for all we know X scenario as a response to an argument they don't like. What you have to do is show that your explanation is more plausible than the one being posited.


You seem to be misunderstanding something. I'm not arguing a scenario. I'm not arguing how a character would win at all. I'm arguing that the character the author has portrayed a superior is more "likely" to win; that's it. Scenario's are for feats.



> For someone who can use a rasengan with just one hand? Probably.


So Kunai slash takes as much chakra as Rasengan?



> No that's not the whole point, it's that after they have a major fight, we get enough info to put them against other people with the knowledge we have at that time in the manga.


But that's the problem; you don't have enough info and this example proves it. Kisame still had major shit up his sleeve.



> Dude, i never said that a ninja has to be at 100% in order for us to evaluate them via feats, and i then go on to explain why....


Than why did you say we couldn't evaluate a ninja based on feats, when they are handicapped?



> rhetorical question. The answer is yes.


Okay than any character that has had less panel time than Deidara, pre-Sasuke fight, doesn't work with feats, that describes most characters in the manga, but okay.



> Then that means hiruzen has been retconned from part 1 if he's able to use more clones than before, thus i don't see how a featbased argument can be responsible for something that defies an explicit manga statement.


See this retecon shit is utter BS to me and is just the defense for when "feats" don't work out for people. But I challenge you to find where it says in Part I Hiruzen couldn't create 4 clones.



> hat's not a really big deal. If the thread was a battledome one, bee would have sealing tags, if it was in the manga, bee would have someone to help him seal.


Do I really need to provide you thee incredibly long list of the BD threads where a character does not have a sealing tag against Edos. 



> Also, being able to seal or not seal the edo tensei wouldn't take away from the who kishi believes is stronger which is the goal of the evaluation.


The goal of a BD evaluation is to find out who would win. Based on feats if you put B up against Edo-Shin, before Fuuinjutsu Octopus Hold was revealed, one would have to conclude Edo-Shin wins. This is only one of a long list of examples as to the poor conclusions one can come to going off feats.



> oonoki's would probably be against muu.


Okay well than that's an extremely poor indicator as Onoki showed tons of important shit after his duel with Mu.



> Madara's would be against Hashirama or at the end against the gokage.


And Madara has shown tons of shit since both of those battles in the manga. So again poor indicator



> Minato's would be against obito


Shown a bunch of important shit since then, so again poor indicator



> Ei's would be against Sasuke.


Only one that's debatable, though I feel massive raiton charge is very much worth considering.



> he pretty much did suna bunshins against sasuke and lee in the chuunin exams.


Except it couldn't trick anyone, since it did not change in appearance from sand.



> Imperial sand coffin is just a greater sand burial.


Okay and your point is what, it's still a major new jutsu.



> Why do you say w/o needing to grind sand? we're told what he needs to do in order to make more sand than is in his gourd, he either did it offpanel or used some of shukaku's.
> Giant sand bullets is a collaberation with shuukaku
> controlling someone internally only happens if he can use the collaberation juts


Gaara can use internal control by himself. 



> he could have learned the first two techs between the 5 kage summit and the war. Also, being a progressive character still explains it even if its midwar. Pretty sure naruto didn't know SM COFRS before the war.


He learned internal sand control and imperial sand coffin between battles. Come on bro that is ridiculous.



> No, Sasuke beat Danzou through the weak genjutsu. Sasuke beat Izanagi by camping in susanoo and spamming attacks till it ran out. Danzou couldn't have conserved his izanagi better, Sasuke was constantly hammering him with attacks in order to force him to hold it.


Even if you think that he wouldn't have been able to conserve Izanagi better; he could have used Shisui's eye for Izanagi.



> Sure, but my arguments don't claim to be 100% certain just like yours don't. However, what's the chance that someone has an all out battle and doesn't show a jutsu that would allow them to win in a situation where their strongest power loses? Not more plausible than not.


Actually it's far more likely than not considering the amount of times that is exactly the case. I've already given you a multitude of examples.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

> No, i don't think it would be a gamechanger. Also, kakashi is a progressing character, and the pain arc is almost a hundred chapters after the immortals arc, so he could have just developed that jutsu.


Honestly this just seems to be an excuse to me.



> but how do you go about factoring it? How do you go about trying to find out how kishi feels these factors play into the victory?


Give me an example and I'll tell you



> The point is that if naruto is up against a hundred opponents that he can stomp with base, he's not going to use sennin mode or kcm.


Yet, once again we saw him do just that, so going to have to say no.



> And those examples, please tell me you aren't serious. Zetsu alone are fodder, but not only are they stated to be durable, but darui took out a dozen of them in a single shot, and he needed to do it quickly since it's a war. Same with the juubi fodders same with SA fodders, they needed to take lots of them out as fast as possible.


So basically what your telling me is the quality of the opponent doesn't matter or not even necessarily how far someone is pushed, but the scenario does. Hmm....I wonder whose point that originally was.



> 'm not restricting it down to a 1vs1 match, im just showing you how specific a scenario you'd have to get in order for the feat-wise argument to POTENTIALLY give you a conclusion that wouldn't follow with that factor.


Any scenario with a combination of a CS user (there are a shit ton of them) and Orochimaru, Kabuto, Sasuke; that's potentially hundreds of different scenarios.



> Also, you'd have to argue that orochimaru can revive another version of himself from Anko's CS, I didn't get that there could be two versions of himself existing at the same time.


Why not?



> Yeah, in a very specific scenario involving one with hashirama's cells, the goal is just to get by (nothing like a versus thread), and Taka w/o sasuke + orochimaru, and juugo standing around doing nothing.


Honestly I can say this same shit about Naruto's feat of blocking multiple TBB:

Yeah in a very specific scenario involving Tailed beats, the goal is just to save Kakashi/Gai (nothing like a versus thread), and Team 7 w/o sakura + Gai, and Kakashi just standing around doing nothing.,

What does this honestly prove? Answer nothing. We saw Orochimaru's CS be impactful in a match, now your telling me it's not potentially changing anything in any matches. That's BS.



> What is that based on?


The fact that Gaara can use Suna bullets w/o Shukaku.



> Example: part 1 hiruzen. We don't have knowledge about his jutsu he used on shinsuusenjuu other than the katon. However even without that knowledge, he's still placed accurately in part 1 when you consider what others have shown in part 1.


Couldn't say, wasn't really around on the NBD when people were discussing Part I matches.



> I'm not saying that the character's unknown jutsus are equal, i said they balance out assuming there is no knowledge given at all about them knowing other jutsus.


Saying they balance out is the same thing as saying they are equal. Your basically saying well both have unknown jutsu so fuck it, i'll go with what's been shown. But that is not logical.



> Dude, feats add everything to the conversation. they allow you to directly compare characters vs characters, they give you an objective basis for quantifying certain attacks relative to others, and the general powers of attacks, they incorporate various dimensions of battles such as reaction time, physical speed, shunshin speed, strength, chakra enhanced strength, durability, and how it all factors into a fight.


Yet they can't predict who'd actually win a fight lol... I mean yes you can compare certain aspects of characters with "feats", which I have no problem with, but until you have literally every piece of data on a characters abilities you'll never be able to write a feats based comparison that comes to an accurate conclusion.



> Also, I'm sure you don't need feats for those instances where you've claimed hype tells you who's stronger, and i'd agree that feats should never falsify explicit statement hype. However, i'm talking about the implicit, the subjective hype, the hyperbole, the stuff that's not so black and white. That's where feats come in, and that's also the entire point of the dome: to generate those kinds of grey threads. That's where subjective portrayal fails, because for one, you'll never be able to falsify another person's interpretation, *who's to say the way one person views a showing is any better or worse than yours? Who's to say one person's interpretation of a statement is any better or worse than yours? no one. *


Common sense 



> eats however provide an (relatively) objective foundation for those kinds of arguments. Is it foolproof? no, but really no method is going to be


Here's the way I look at it:

Portrayal is like analyzing a book. Is it subjective to interpretation and can we be wrong, sure we can, but unless someone is trolling this is not going to happen that often. Why? Because Naruto-Manga is not some extremely complex text that is incredibly difficult to interpret, it's a straight forward text written for primarily young adults and is therefore not very difficult to comprehend what the author is trying to get across to readers about characters strength. Also helped by the DB Stat Totals, which directly tells us what the author is trying to get across in some instances.

On the other hand feats is like a mathematical equation someone is trying to solve. In theory the mathematical equation seems like it would be more accurate than literary analysis and less subject to interpretation the problem is the mathematical equation is not only incredibly complex in the case of most matches, but also lacks the variables necessary to solve the actual equation. So it's something like this

Z+D+G+Y+H+F+R+E+S+W+Q+2+3+4+5+6 = ?

It's wonderful that we know the specific numbers for part of the equation, but there are so many dam variables that the equation is not even remotely solvable, we can't even estimate the solution in terms of likelihood. That's why feats are a pointless exercise, as you can solve part of the equations, but will never be able to solve enough of it to ever come to any type of certain conclusion


----------



## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

Pein said:


> Just checked my copy of volume 22, Neji states Kidomaru is much stronger.


If you can give me the quote that would be great.



Rocky said:


> Turrin, who's portrayed stronger, an SM Naruto shadow clone, or Sandaime Raikage?


Sandaime Raikage since Dat Clone needed advantages to win.



> Now if I made a Battledome thread such as:
> 
> Knowledge: Manga for Naruto, none for Raikage
> Setting: Sannin Battlefield
> ...


Sandaime Raikage because dat clone needed advantages to win. Make it Dodai + Dat clone + alliance back up + Manga knowledge + Amber-Sealing Jar restricted + Kabuto controlling Sandaime . Than Team Dat-clone would win, but again that is due to dat-clone having a number of advantages.


----------



## Pein (Apr 14, 2014)

''He is so much stronger''


----------



## Rocky (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Sandaime Raikage because dat clone needed advantages to win. Make it Dodai + Dat clone + alliance back up + Manga knowledge + Amber-Sealing Jar restricted + Kabuto controlling Sandaime . Than Team Dat-clone would win, but again that is due to dat-clone having a number of advantages.



Nah, because with full knowledge Naruto wouldn't need help. The alliance didn't help Naruto kill him, they bought him time until Naruto _gained knowledge. _


----------



## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Nah, because with full knowledge Naruto wouldn't need help. The alliance didn't help Naruto kill him, they bought him time until Naruto _gained knowledge. _


And to enter Sennin Modo.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> And to enter Sennin Modo.



He did that in a panel. He can do it much faster than in the Pain arc (he worked on it).


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I have no problem with that. In-fact I think it's a fun thing to discuss. But don't tell me one character beats another because of their displayed arsenals.
> 
> Simply put there is a difference between saying;
> 
> ...


I'm stating neither.  My statement would be based on feats (which is more than mere displayed arsenal) and portrayal, Character X beats character Y more often than not in the stated scenario.



Turrin said:


> I think your misunderstanding something. I'm talking about character match ups here, as in one character is a bad match up for another; not general strength. Kidomaru may be a bit stronger than Neji, but he's not a bad match up for Neji.


That completely depends on the knowledge both have on one another.



Turrin said:


> Neji was portrayed as one of the top rookies. Choji a rookie being able to beat an S4 member, would indicate that a top rookie like Neji should perform well against another S4 member. That's all based on things that were indicated in the manga.


dude, don't waste my time by ignoring things like Chouji having to eat a pill that multiplies his strength by 100 times and kills him just to kill the weakest of the sound 4.  If your portrayal argument forces you to ignore parts of the portrayal that destroy your conclusion, then it tells you there's something wrong with your method of evaluation.



Turrin said:


> I do not think this length:
> Nope
> 
> Is equal to this length:
> ...


*Another perspective*  And tell me, is there really a huge difference especially when the manga doesn't tell us if that's even sasuke's maximum eiso length?



Turrin said:


> Which just further illustrates my point. That before the ambush squad battle we didn't even know how big an advantage Sasuke had. Again demonstrating the limit of "feats".


I'm honestly not seeing the point you are trying to make here.  



Turrin said:


> A limitation which had no baring on Sasuke vs Deidara.


Sure it does, if deidara doesn't have that much clay, then in a versus match that gives him less arsenal to work with and thus it increases Sasuke's chances of victory in a versus match which would reflect the outcome in canon....



Turrin said:


> Kakashi blantantly said the way to deal with a long-range specialist is to have powerful long-range jutsu or a mind like Shikkamaru. Kakashi used a powerful long-range jutsu and he used intelligence to time that with Naruto's attack. Sasuke had demonstrated nether powerful long-range jutsu or a mind like Shikkamaru's. So based on feats, Deidara would have been a bad match up.


Kakashi was saying that in respects to naruto since naruto neither has a mind like shikamaru nor a long range jutsu so that naruto doesn't go and try to attack Deidara alone.  He wasn't saying some kind of universal truth to all shinobi.  in the context of kakashi's statement, Sasuke does have a shikamaru-like mind and this was proven when he did the whole shuriken arm trap against Deidara.  So based on feats, Deidara isn't a bad matchup



Turrin said:


> You seem to be misunderstanding something. I'm not arguing a scenario. I'm not arguing how a character would win at all. I'm arguing that the character the author has portrayed a superior is more "likely" to win; that's it. Scenario's are for feats.


Um, newsflash but every battledome thread is a specific scenario.... even things that happen in the manga occur under specific scenarios.  And what you say you are arguing now completely contradicts what you say you are arguing about kidomaru.



Turrin said:


> So Kunai slash takes as much chakra as Rasengan?




I'll just go ahead and accept your concession on this one if you don't mind.  Try not to waste both of our time.



Turrin said:


> But that's the problem; you don't have enough info and this example proves it. Kisame still had major shit up his sleeve.


Reread the statement you are responding to, don't waste my time, and don't make me repeat over and over that the feat-wise argument doesn't assert certainty. 



Turrin said:


> Than why did you say we couldn't evaluate a ninja based on feats, when they are handicapped?


read the damn post i literally just told you to read.  Again, don't waste time.



Turrin said:


> Okay than any character that has had less panel time than Deidara, pre-Sasuke fight, doesn't work with feats, that describes most characters in the manga, but okay.


don't waste my time.  Reread what you've responded to and tell me whether or not panel time is the deciding factor.



Turrin said:


> See this retecon shit is utter BS to me and is just the defense for when "feats" don't work out for people. But I challenge you to find where it says in Part I Hiruzen couldn't create 4 clones.


Really?  So we need an explicit statement in order to claim that something is a retcon?



Turrin said:


> Do I really need to provide you thee incredibly long list of the BD threads where a character does not have a sealing tag against Edos.


Please do, and at the same time, out of all those BD threads, show me when the OP literally intended for the living character to have no way of sealing the edos.



Turrin said:


> *The goal of a BD evaluation is to find out who would win.* Based on feats if you put B up against Edo-Shin, before Fuuinjutsu Octopus Hold was revealed, one would have to conclude Edo-Shin wins. This is only one of a long list of examples as to the poor conclusions one can come to going off feats.


Yeah, so while a BD thread where the OP negligently forgot to include a way for Bee to seal an edo leaves bee the loser in the long run, clearly the feats argument would show who is the stronger shinobi under those conditions.

In addition to that, what would your portrayal argument tell you about Naruto vs edos?  Isn't SM/KCM Naruto portrayed as bein more powerful than edo shin.  Wouldn't portrayal tell you that he beats edo shin?  Yet what is this?  Naruto has no way to beat edos? 



Turrin said:


> Okay well than that's an extremely poor indicator as Onoki showed tons of important shit after his duel with Mu.


Nope, not if you are evaluating his opponent based on the information we had on that opponent at the time.



Turrin said:


> And Madara has shown tons of shit since both of those battles in the manga. So again poor indicator
> 
> Shown a bunch of important shit since then, so again poor indicator


Don't waste my time, if all you can do is repeat over and over points that I've explicitly addressed then it just shows how unsupported your own stance is. 



Turrin said:


> Only one that's debatable, though I feel massive raiton charge is very much worth considering.


No.  Actually HELL no debate honestly, don't waste my time.



Turrin said:


> Except it couldn't trick anyone, since it did not change in appearance from sand.


It sure tricked lee.



Turrin said:


> Okay and your point is what, it's still a major new jutsu.


a major new jutsu that's simply a better version of what gaara could do already, thus it's character growth.



Turrin said:


> Gaara can use internal control by himself.
> 
> He learned internal sand control and imperial sand coffin between battles. Come on bro that is ridiculous.


Why?  Naruto's learning tons of new jutsu in between battles.



Turrin said:


> Even if you think that he wouldn't have been able to conserve Izanagi better; he could have used Shisui's eye for Izanagi.


even after getting a lethal wound, he still wasn't sure about using shisui's eye for izanagi because he was still worrying about Tobi. 



Turrin said:


> Actually it's far more likely than not considering the amount of times that is exactly the case. I've already given you a multitude of examples.


Um no you haven't.  You've given me examples of characters showing more in their arsenal later in the manga.  Which of the examples that you've given have any character in an all out battle?  That has nothing to do with the actual argument which is evaluating how accurate the conclusions of a feat-based argument are in determining the winner of a versus match.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> He did that in a panel. He can do it much faster than in the Pain arc (he worked on it).


1) You don't know it took a panel. Naruto stopped moving long before the panel in which he enter Sennin Modo

2) Ether way he achieved it with help; that's an undeniable fact.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 14, 2014)

That fact is only relevant if you believe that he is incapable of activating Sage Mode against Sandaime Raikage, and I would look down upon you for believing something like that.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That fact is only relevant if you believe that he is incapable of activating Sage Mode against Sandaime Raikage, and I would look down upon you for believing something like that.


Really your going to look down on me for believing that a clone couldn't activate Sennin Modo alone against Sandaime Raikage


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Honestly this just seems to be an excuse to me.


if only accusing something as being an excuse is a valid counterargument supported by reason.



Turrin said:


> Give me an example and I'll tell you


Naruto vs Pein



Turrin said:


> Yet, once again we saw him do just that, so going to have to say no.


When did Naruto use KCM/SM in a 1 vs 1 fight in which he wanted to defeat an opponent that he could have stomped in base?  Don't waste my time, if you get the point, just acknowledge it, don't type stuff just for the sake of putting words in a post to fill it up.



Turrin said:


> So basically what your telling me is the quality of the opponent doesn't matter or not even necessarily how far someone is pushed, but the scenario does. Hmm....I wonder whose point that originally was.


Seriously, stop wasting my time.   My post in no way implies that quality of opponent's doesn't matter.  It only implies that quality of opponents ISNT THE ONLY FACTOR.  I'm sure you are intelligent enough to comprehend that, thus stop posting stuff that you already know the answer to.



Turrin said:


> Any scenario with a combination of a CS user (there are a shit ton of them) and Orochimaru, Kabuto, Sasuke; that's potentially hundreds of different scenarios.


How about you go and show me roughly how many threads were made that fulfill those conditions, and tell me how many of them would have the victor legitimately affected by that.  How many threads do you think will fulfill those conditions if we go through the last 10 pages of the NBD? 20? 30?  Don't waste my time.



Turrin said:


> Why not?


you're making the positive claim to knowledge, burden of proof is on you.



Turrin said:


> Honestly I can say this same shit about Naruto's feat of blocking multiple TBB:
> 
> Yeah in a very specific scenario involving Tailed beats, the goal is just to save Kakashi/Gai (nothing like a versus thread), and Team 7 w/o sakura + Gai, and Kakashi just standing around doing nothing.,
> 
> What does this honestly prove? Answer nothing. We saw Orochimaru's CS be impactful in a match, now your telling me it's not potentially changing anything in any matches. That's BS.


That's a ridiculously fallacious comparison.  Naruto's TBB blocking feat is both a speed feat and a strength feat, those aren't specific abilities like orochimaru's poison that can specifically immobilize hashirama's cells for a limited time, it's a feat that doesn't only apply to blocking TBBs strength feat can be applied to attacking offensively, the speed feat can be used to moving from point A to point B, two things that are major factors in comparison and applicable to most scenarios.



Turrin said:


> The fact that Gaara can use Suna bullets w/o Shukaku.


oh but was that the requirement?



Turrin said:


> Couldn't say, wasn't really around on the NBD when people were discussing Part I matches.


you don't have to be around at that time.  a feat-wise comparison would pit him against characters only with the information we had until around the time he died.



Turrin said:


> Saying they balance out is the same thing as saying they are equal. Your basically saying well both have unknown jutsu so fuck it, i'll go with what's been shown. But that is not logical.


Obviously not as i explained in the post you've quoted.



Turrin said:


> Yet they can't predict who'd actually win a fight lol... I mean yes you can compare certain aspects of characters with "feats", which I have no problem with, but until you have literally every piece of data on a characters abilities you'll never be able to write a feats based comparison that comes to an accurate conclusion.


um, they do predict who's actually win a fight.  You don't need 'literally every piece of data on a character's abilities' in order to simply find out who'd win more than not under the conditions of a thread.  

Hold on, are you saying that since we don't have full knowledge, then a feat-based argument will absolutely fail in predicting who'll win in a fight?



Turrin said:


> Common sense


If only that was an argument



Turrin said:


> Here's the way I look at it:
> 
> Portrayal is like analyzing a book. Is it subjective to interpretation and can we be wrong, sure we can, but unless someone is trolling this is not going to happen that often. Why? Because Naruto-Manga is not some extremely complex text that is incredibly difficult to interpret, it's a straight forward text written for primarily young adults and is therefore not very difficult to comprehend what the author is trying to get across to readers about characters strength. Also helped by the DB Stat Totals, which directly tells us what the author is trying to get across in some instances.


Feats are even less subjective than portrayal, but look at how many people reach for ridiculous assertions in order to vouch for the conclusions that they want.  The place where portrayal really fails is character vs character matchups that haven't happened in the manga and happen under stipulations that are not remotely comparable to what has happened in the manga. 



Turrin said:


> On the other hand feats is like a mathematical equation someone is trying to solve. In theory the mathematical equation seems like it would be more accurate than literary analysis and less subject to interpretation the problem is the mathematical equation is not only incredibly complex in the case of most matches, but also lacks the variables necessary to solve the actual equation. So it's something like this
> 
> Z+D+G+Y+H+F+R+E+S+W+Q+2+3+4+5+6 = ?
> 
> It's wonderful that we know the specific numbers for part of the equation, but there are so many dam variables that the equation is not even remotely solvable, we can't even estimate the solution in terms of likelihood. That's why feats are a pointless exercise, as you can solve part of the equations, but will never be able to solve enough of it to ever come to any type of certain conclusion


Absolutely not, this is simply you disguising your attempt to assert a 100% burden of proof on a feat-wise argument.  

Feat-wise arguments aren't interested in getting an exact number and saying this will happen.  If you want to relate it to an equation it will be like this:

10+8+7+A+C+9+14+Z > 11+B+10+13+C+D
where:
A = 4+/-5  B = 6+/-6 C = 8+/-2 etc 

So sure, we won't know the exact numbers on either side of the equation, but we don't need to.  We're merely trying to find out which equation is greater than the other more than not.

and the whole thing is only looked at if it doesn't contradict a broad portrayal screening.



Rocky said:


> He did that in a panel. He can do it much faster than in the Pain arc (he worked on it).


Why don't you just make him the clone start the match already in sennin mode?

Turrin, evaluate this matchup:

SM Naruto clone vs Sandaime raikage
Location: sandaime raikage vs alliance
Knowledge: manga for naruto none for sandaime
Distance: 50 meters
Mindset: IC going for kill
Restrictions: Naruto's clone is one of 13 other SM clones

who wins based on portrayal?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

@ueharakk
This is getting long and circular, so i'm going to try and tidy this up. 

I'm aware that your stand-point is to bring both "feats" and "portrayal" to the table, however I simply do not see what "feats" brings to the table in most matches, because in most matches we are unaware of a characters entire arsenal. Now your counter argument to this, is that once a characters been given a "feature" battle than we have enough info to do a "feats"-based analysis that will get us at least to the point where we can determine a likely winner. I emphasize with this point because it is something I also personally believed for years; until the war-arc gave deceased characters and living characters the chance to have many more featured battles. During these battles we saw many characters pull out new "feats" or new interactions between "feats" that are indeed substantial enough to have an impact on "feat"-based discussion. In essence this demonstrated to me that the idea that once a character has had a "featured-battle" we have enough to judge them based on "feats" was actually a faulty assumption of mine all along. There are a myriad of examples of this in the war-arc:


*Spoiler*: __ 



- Kisame had a featured battle against Killer B, but he demonstrated new but he demonstrated new feats, that would still hold weight in certain matches: 1,000 Feeding Sharks, Daikodan, etc...

- Haku had a featured battle against Naruto & Sasuke in the Wave-Arc, but he demonstrated new feats, that would still hold weight in certain matches; Hyouton-Dome, Long-Range Ice-Mirror, & additional speed feats of blitzing Sai and keeping up with Lee.

- Itachi had a featured battle against Sasuke, but but he demonstrated new feats, that would still hold weight in certain matches: Magatama, Izanami, etc...

- Nagato had a featured battle against Naruto, but but he demonstrated new feats, that would still hold weight in certain matches: such as being able to use the path powers simultaneously and with greater effect when not channeling them through Pain Rikudo

- Gaara & Kakashi have had numerous featured battles before and during the war, but keep showing new feats throughout the war 

- Killer B had a couple featured battles before the war, but keeps demonstrating new feats, that would still hold weight in certain matches: Continuos TBB, Octopus Hold, Hachimaki, etc....

- Naruto had a featured fight against Pain, but he demonstrated new feats, that would still hold weight in certain matches before receiving any additional power up; Chou Oddoma Rasentarengan

- Gai had a featured fight against Kisame before the war, but but he demonstrated new feats, that would still hold weight in certain matches; 8th-Gate, Evening Elephant, Night Gai, etc....

- Orochimaru had numerous featured fights, and throughout the manga-cannon kept demonstrating new feats, that would still hold weight in certain matches.

- Hiruzen had a featured fight against Orochimaru, but he demonstrated new feats, that would still hold weight in certain matches; Cloning Larger Shuriken, 5 Elemental recompositions, etc...

- Etc... the list goes on an on




And while i'm sure a bright guy like yourself can come up with justifications for many of these, there should be a point where we simply realize that due to the amount of examples, justifying each one on an individual basis stops making sense, and we should look at what is holistically being shown to us; which is quite simply the fact that characters in the manga featured battle or not only demonstrate abilities which are applicable to the scenario they are in. This is problematic for the NBD, because like you highlighted in your last post the NBD forces characters into very specific situations, that they are unlikely to have faced in the manga-cannon, and therefore we as readers are unlikely to have seen what Jutsu they would have utilized for that situation. So it's not that we need simply a featured battle to judge a character based on "feats" we need a featured battle that is tailored specifically to the scenario that the character is being put in, in the NBD match; unfortunately we don't get that in most instances. Let's take Jiriaya for example:

Jiraiya's featured battle was not against a Genjutsu user, Jiraiya is consistently put up against Genjutsu users in NBD matches. With no frame of reference we can not tell what Jutsu Jiraiya would use in that scenario, whether they be ones he's shown or otherwise, and we can't even tell how he'd act in that scenario. We can guess based on his shown abilities, but that will never be enough to accurately gauge how a fight would actually play out, not even to the extent where we could deem a likely outcome. Like wise the same can be said about Jiriaya fighting a speedster, again we have no frame of reference. Beyond Jiriaya we can look at other characters, we have no frame of reference for how Tsunade would handle herself at her best in a 1v1 match, period. We've only seen her at her best in team-battles and of course when in that element she is going to take a support role due to being a master medic, but that does not translate well to her being placed into a 1v1 match in the NBD. The list goes on and on from there.

With portrayal on the other hand in most cases we can at least come to the conclusion of who Kishi see's as holistically the superior ninja. Does this translate perfectly to the NBD, not it doesn't, because as you astutely pointed out the NBD, set certain conditions that might aid one fighter and not the other, thus tipping the scales in their favor. Though this is true and therefore in the NBD the ninja who is holistically superior might not always win, it still gives us a good baseline for who is likely to win the match, especially since most NBD matches strive to set universally fair conditions. This is not something we can really say for "feats" in most instances imo. 

And to clarify further by "feats" I of course mean character-x beats character-y, because character-y hasn't shown a counter to character-x's jutsu based argumentation. Anything besides that and I don't necessarily see anything wrong with "feats", though I'd have to look at it on a case by case basis.



> Turrin, evaluate this matchup:
> 
> SM Naruto clone vs Sandaime raikage
> Location: sandaime raikage vs alliance
> ...


Hard to say because Naruto as a character has been portrayed to be a doofus that would be extremely weak against something like the Amber-Sealing Jar, so much so that it would not surprise me if Current God-Rikudo Power up Naruto lost to it; Madara should have held onto that Jar for his dear life. 

Restrict the Jar, than we can talk. While your at it better put Sandaime Raikage under Kabuto's control.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Hard to say because Naruto as a character has been portrayed to be a doofus that would be extremely weak against something like the Amber-Sealing Jar, *so much so that it would not surprise me if Current God-Rikudo Power up Naruto lost to it*; Madara should have held onto that Jar for his dear life.





Are you clinically insane??

And what happened to not looking at Justu mechanics?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Are you clinically insane??


Yeah instead of trying to understand the point i'm making let's jump to insults.

Are you really going to sit here and tell me Naruto is able to keep his mouth shut in any match?



> And what happened to not looking at Justu mechanics?


This is one of the few instances where Kishi has indicated match up is an issue, by constantly calling Naruto the number one loud mouth ninja.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Are you really going to sit here and tell me Naruto is able to keep his mouth shut in any match?



What does this have to do with anything? When's the last time *any* character kept their mouth shut during a entire battle? 

Hell, the vast majority of characters in the Manga, including the absolute top tiers, would answer when their name is called.



> This is one of the few instances where Kishi has indicated match up is an issue, by constantly calling Naruto the number one loud mouth ninja.



And what the _FUCK_ happened to ignoring that when the author's portrayal deems one character *blatantly* superior??


----------



## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> What does this have to do with anything? When's the last time *any* character kept their mouth shut during a entire battle?
> 
> Hell, the vast majority of characters in the Manga, including the absolute top tiers, would answer when their name is called.


Which is why the Amber-Sealing-Jar is basically the most OP, kiss of death, thing in existence in the Naruto-world. But many ninja may kill the wielder before they opened their mouth; not likely to be the case with No 1 Loud Mouth Ninja.



> And what the FUCK happened to ignoring that when the author's portrayal deems one character blatantly superior??


And what the FUCK happened to reading the response that was given to you. I repeat this is one of the few times where match up is indicated by the author to be an issue. All along I said if the author directly indicates match up is an issue than the inferior ninja can win. It's just that in the case of most fannon "match up" issuse it's based on well blah blah character hasn't shown a jutsu around blah blah; here that doesn't matter because the tool works totally on ones words not arsenal, Naruto has been characterized as a loud mouth from day 1 and that has held true throughout the story.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Hard to say because Naruto as a character has been portrayed to be a doofus that would be extremely weak against something like the Amber-Sealing Jar, so much so that it would not surprise me if Current God-Rikudo Power up Naruto lost to it; Madara should have held onto that Jar for his dear life.
> 
> Restrict the Jar, than we can talk. While your at it better put Sandaime Raikage under Kabuto's control.



im going to hold off on the main argument for a bit to focus on this one.

i don't think the jar should automatically be included in his arsenal.  That jar is obviously used when he intends to seal something, he's not going to haul something as precious as that all over the place.  Most likely he doesn't even bring it to the battlefield himself, he probably has mabui send it there if he decides that the battle is risky enough to warrant the use of the jar.

But anyways, just to make things clear, lets have the jar restricted.

Next, lets make 2 scenarios, one where sandaime raikage is an edo under kabuto's control and another where he's alive.  Now who wins?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> im going to hold off on the main argument for a bit to focus on this one.
> 
> i don't think the jar should automatically be included in his arsenal.  That jar is obviously used when he intends to seal something, he's not going to haul something as precious as that all over the place.  Most likely he doesn't even bring it to the battlefield himself, he probably has mabui send it there if he decides that the battle is risky enough to warrant the use of the jar.


Gin&Kin carried around the Jar and even if Mabui did transfer it too him, usually we count Shinobi at their best which would be Sandaime with the Jar.



> But anyways, just to make things clear, lets have the jar restricted.
> 
> Next, lets make 2 scenarios, one where sandaime raikage is an edo under kabuto's control and another where he's alive.  Now who wins?


First scenario Naruto wins as he won in the manga as it's the same scenario as in the manga. Second scenario who knows, as we don't know if Kabuto's influence made a difference on Sandaime's ability or not.

I also find it funny that this is the "feats" based argument, considering anyone looking at Sandaime Raikage vs dat-clone based on "feats" would have concluded Sandaime won, until dat clone showed a strategy of using his weaker Jutsu to redirect the Hell-Bringer.


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## ueharakk (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Gin&Kin carried around the Jar and even if Mabui did transfer it too him, usually we count Shinobi at their best which would be Sandaime with the Jar.


Gin and Kin did?  And it would make sense for them to do it since they are outlaws.  Also, no shinobi aren't by default at their literal best in a fight. 



Turrin said:


> First scenario Naruto wins as he won in the manga as it's the same scenario as in the manga. Second scenario who knows, as we don't know if Kabuto's influence made a difference on Sandaime's ability or not.


So you agree then that by portrayal, a single SM clone > edo Sandaime raikage?

For the second part, lets say worst case scenario that kabuto's influence did make a difference.  Wouldn't you have to factor Sandaime raikage's edo perks make up for that?  Also, you can't stay agnostic on this, whether you think the evidence is strong or weak, you have to at least state what you think is the most plausible based on the evidence.



Turrin said:


> I also find it funny that this is the "feats" based argument, considering anyone looking at Sandaime Raikage vs dat-clone based on "feats" would have concluded Sandaime won, until dat clone showed a strategy of using his weaker Jutsu to redirect the Hell-Bringer.


It's not sandaime raikage vs dat-clone, it's sandaime raikage vs a SM naruto clone.  Also, from my point of view, yes edo sandaime raikage would defeat datclone more often than not if all starting conditions are equal.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Gin and Kin did?  And it would make sense for them to do it since they are outlaws.  Also, no shinobi aren't by default at their literal best in a fight.


I don't know where you got the impression that Shinobi are not assumed to be their best unless otherwise stated by the OP

Do we assume Sasori doesn't have his puppets, no.



> So you agree then that by portrayal, a single SM clone > edo Sandaime raikage?


A clone can not just magically start in Sennin Modo; Sennin Modo has to be something someone enters. So your giving dat-clone an advantage.



> For the second part, lets say worst case scenario that kabuto's influence did make a difference. Wouldn't you have to factor Sandaime raikage's edo perks make up for that?


I don't know.



> Also, you can't stay agnostic on this, whether you think the evidence is strong or weak, you have to at least state what you think is the most plausible based on the evidence.


Umm, yes I can say that I don't know. Not always can a victor be determined.



> It's not sandaime raikage vs dat-clone, it's sandaime raikage vs a SM naruto clone. Also, from my point of view, yes edo sandaime raikage would defeat datclone more often than not if all starting conditions are equal.


There is not such thing as SM-Naruto Clone. A clone can't just magic into existence while in Sennin Modo. Naruto has to create a clone, which than has to enter Sennin Modo (or Naruto has to enter Sennin Modo and than create a clone). Ether way if this done before the battle begins, your giving an advantage.

Also not really sure what you and rocky are trying to even prove with this.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> But many ninja may kill the wielder before they opened their mouth; not likely to be the case with No 1 Loud Mouth Ninja.



Says who? If Sandaime Raikage called out Hashirama's name, you think that goofball would completely ignore it and slaughter Sandaime?

Of course Hashirama could probably kill Sandaime Raikage before he even got the chance to say anything, but then again, so could Naruto.

By the way, when is the last time Naruto has even been called that?



> And what the FUCK happened to reading the response that was given to you. I repeat this is one of the few times where match up is indicated by the author to be an issue. All along I said if the author directly indicates match up is an issue than the inferior ninja can win.



We came to the conclusion, *LONG* ago, that match up would be ignored _in its entirety_ if the Manga made it absolutely certain that one Shinobi would just dismantle the other no matter the circumstances. 

In another thread, you concluded that Tsunade & Mu could go either way without once bringing up their arsenals. Yet, "the author" told us that Jinton disintegrates on the molecular level, while Byakugo is cellular-based regeneration. Who has Jinton? Mu. Who uses Byakugo as her trump card? Tsunade. Did you ever mention that Mu had an advantage because of it? Absolutely fucking not...

And _now_, you're sitting here, straight faced, telling me that GOATruto would lose a match to the damn Raikage? Are you fucking shitting me? YOU, WHO ARGUES NOTHING BUT PORTRAYAL??? 

Yeah...funny man. Too funny.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I don't know where you got the impression that Shinobi are not assumed to be their best unless otherwise stated by the OP
> 
> Do we assume Sasori doesn't have his puppets, no.


do we assume nagato is crippled or not?  Has GM with how many bijuu?  Do we assume itachi is healthy?  Or that Gaara has shukaku?  Sasuke has the cursed seal?  It's not strictly most powerful state.



Turrin said:


> A clone can not just magically start in Sennin Modo; Sennin Modo has to be something someone enters. So your giving dat-clone an advantage.


that's completely irrelevant.  If the stipulations require that the clone starts in sennin mode, then you evaluate the match under the assumption that the clone is already in sennin mode.  Thus how he got to that point is not a factor in the matchup.



Turrin said:


> I don't know.


dude you can't say that.  Anyone can cop out of any argument by making that claim.  Regardless of how strong or weak the evidence is, you have to at least state which you think is more plausible than not.



Turrin said:


> Umm, yes I can say that I don't know. Not always can a victor be determined.


dude, even in cases where you state you do know, the victor isn't really determined.  It's only that the one deemed the victor will more likely than not win.



Turrin said:


> There is not such thing as SM-Naruto Clone. A clone can't just magic into existence while in Sennin Modo. Naruto has to create a clone, which than has to enter Sennin Modo (or Naruto has to enter Sennin Modo and than create a clone). Ether way if this done before the battle begins, your giving an advantage.


Sure there is.  A SM Naruto clone is a clone that's in sennin mode.  The conditions required for a clone to enter sennin mode are completely irrelevant when the OP states that as one of the initial conditions of the matchup.  So there is no advantage being given to the sennin mode clone.  

And that's true for every condition in the matchup.  Naruto can't just magically pop into existence, his mother had to give birth to him, he had to live 16 years and go through all that stuff in order to become the person he is when the thread begins.  Same with sandaime raikage.  Same with manga knowledge since no one magically gains this knowlege, same with location since no one magically pops into existence at the location of the fight.



Turrin said:


> Also not really sure what you and rocky are trying to even prove with this.


oh you'll see


----------



## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Says who? If Sandaime Raikage called out Hashirama's name, you think that goofball would completely ignore it and slaughter Sandaime?
> 
> Of course Hashirama could probably kill Sandaime Raikage before he even got the chance to say anything, but then again, so could Naruto.
> 
> By the way, when is the last time Naruto has even been called that?


No one is killing anyone before they have a chance to say anything in the manga. Like I said the treasure is the most nonsensically broken thing Kishi has ever conceived. 



> We came to the conclusion, LONG ago, that match up would be ignored in its entirety if the Manga made it absolutely certain that one Shinobi would just dismantle the other no matter the circumstances.


No we didn't do anything; you might have but I did not. I said most of the time NBD fannon match up issues aren't going to change the outcome. Here is a very peculiar circumstance though.



> In another thread, you concluded that Tsunade & Mu could go either way without once bringing up their arsenals. Yet, "the author" told us that Jinton disintegrates on the molecular level, while Byakugo is cellular-based regeneration. Who has Jinton? Mu. Who uses Byakugo as her trump card? Tsunade. Did you ever mention that Mu had an advantage because of it? Absolutely fucking not...


And again the issue with this is that it's based around shown arsenals. Someone else in that thread was arguing FCD killed Mu instantly; it's the same dumb arsenal based crap. In the case of amber-sealing jar arsenal is a non issue, because it doesn't work off arsenal it works of words. It's a very peculiar circumstance, that is quite the outlier.

Also unlike in this case Tsunade's regeneration was never indicated to be a weakness, nor has the author indicated that someone getting past Tsunade's regen makes her/him a bad match up. In Naruto cases we are shown time and time again his acting like a loud mouth doofus and many characters have commented on it. That is another major inherent difference here.



> And now, you're sitting here, straight faced, telling me that GOATruto would lose a match to the damn Raikage? Are you fucking shitting me? YOU, WHO ARGUES NOTHING BUT PORTRAYAL???


Rocky your sitting here telling me with a straight face that Rikudo looses to Konohamaru? Are fucking shitting me? And so on and so forth....

See I can make up total lies as well.

I said it wouldn't surprise me if he lost, not that he was certainly going to loose. Simply put it's hard to say who would win, because Amber-Sealing-Jar plays so perfectly into what has been indicated to be a great weakness of Naruto's and is so nonsensical OP in the fact that it ignores everything except if the target talks, which many Naruto characters are predisposed to do


----------



## Turrin (Apr 14, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> do we assume nagato is crippled or not?  Has GM with how many bijuu?  Do we assume itachi is healthy?  Or that Gaara has shukaku?  Sasuke has the cursed seal?  It's not strictly most powerful state.


The norm is to assume they are at there best state, unless the OP says otherwise.



> that's completely irrelevant. If the stipulations require that the clone starts in sennin mode, then you evaluate the match under the assumption that the clone is already in sennin mode. Thus how he got to that point is not a factor in the matchup.


Yes and the stipulations give Naruto an advantage. 



> dude you can't say that. Anyone can cop out of any argument by making that claim. Regardless of how strong or weak the evidence is, you have to at least state which you think is more plausible than not.


I didn't make any argument about this match. You gave me your scenario and I said I don't know. So sorry to say, but that's my answer, don't like it, too bad.



> dude, even in cases where you state you do know, the victor isn't really determined. It's only that the one deemed the victor will more likely than not win.


I don't know who is more likely to win. 



> And that's true for every condition in the matchup. Naruto can't just magically pop into existence, his mother had to give birth to him, he had to live 16 years and go through all that stuff in order to become the person he is when the thread begins. Same with sandaime raikage. Same with manga knowledge since no one magically gains this knowlege, same with location since no one magically pops into existence at the location of the fight.


Enough of this BS. Allowing Naruto to magically start in Sennin Modo is an advantage that the stipulations are giving him; there is no other way to see that.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Like I said the treasure is the most nonsensically broken thing Kishi has ever conceived.



What gave you that idea, because Kishi certainly didn't treat it that way when Madara dumped it.



> No we didn't do anything; you might have but I did not. I said most of the time NBD fannon match up issues aren't going to change the outcome. Here is a very peculiar circumstance though.



"Fannon." Hah. Nearly every fight here involves that.

This sealing jar match up issue with Naruto is technically "fannon," unless you can point me to the scan where Kishimoto specifically explains Naruto's relationship to the amber sealing jar.



> In the case of amber-sealing jar arsenal is a non issue, because it doesn't work off arsenal it works of words. It's a very peculiar circumstance, that is quite the outlier.



What? Are you serious right now?

The sealing jar is part of Sandaime Raikage's arsenal, so why are you looking at how it affects Naruto when you _refused _to look at how Mu's Jinton affects Tsunade?



> Nor has the author indicated that someone getting past Tsunade's regen makes her/him a bad match up.



Oh my god.

Use your brain and make a logical assumption for once. Mu having a technique that completely bypasses such a focal point of Tsunade's character gives him an advantage. Kishimoto doesn't have to freaking write it out for it to be true.



> I said it wouldn't surprise me if he lost, not that he was certainly going to loose. Simply put it's hard to say who would win, because Amber-Sealing-Jar plays so perfectly into what has been indicated to be a great weakness of Naruto's and is so nonsensical OP in the fact that it ignores everything except if the target talks, which many Naruto characters are predisposed to do



_*IT'S HARD TO SAY WHO WOULD WIN??*_

Have you gone fucking mad? Kishimoto would laugh in your face for even suggesting that Naruto could _possibly_ lose to the 3rd Raikage at this point in the Manga.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The norm is to assume they are at there best state, unless the OP says otherwise.


and i've shown that statement to not be necessarily true.



Turrin said:


> Yes and the stipulations give Naruto an advantage.


sure they do, thus if it was a 'naruto vs sandaime raikage' thread where naruto could only fight with using a clone, then you could list it as an advantage since the thread isn't operating within the parameter of naruto's clone starting in sennin mode, once the fight begins, naruto would have to get his clone into sennin mode which would make it harder for him to attain victory.  However, it doesn't give the sennin mode clone an advantage because in a "SM clone vs sandaime raikage' thread, the stipulations stated have already disclosed that advantage.



Turrin said:


> I didn't make any argument about this match. You gave me your scenario and I said I don't know. So sorry to say, but that's my answer, don't like it, too bad.


Then you've just demonstrated the failures of a portrayal argument.  Anyone can literally use that copout if they are faced with a thread that leads to a conclusion that they don't like.



Turrin said:


> I don't know who is more likely to win.


you never _know_ who's more likely to win. 



Turrin said:


> Enough of this BS. Allowing Naruto to magically start in Sennin Modo is an advantage that the stipulations are giving him; there is no other way to see that.


Brother, you are the one spouting BS.   I shown you how your reasoning fails since it would force you into a double standard, and because you know that I am right and you literally cannot deny that reasoning, you're forced to ignore it and call it BS.

 How one achieves the starting stipulations of a matchup are completely irrelevant to evaluating the matchup.  Hey, maybe the conditions are hard or maybe even impossible to fulfill, it doesn't matter as implausible, difficult to achieve or not, we are evaluating the matchup within the parameters set by the OP.  So regardless of the requirements or how one gets into a certain situation, in the situation where a sennin mode clone is up against Sandaime raikage, who'd win more than not?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> What gave you that idea, because Kishi certainly didn't treat it that way when Madara dumped it.


Yeah and i'm sure nothing bad will come of that 
There is no way that was a poorly disguised plot device 



> What? Are you serious right now?
> 
> The sealing jar is part of Sandaime Raikage's arsenal, so why are you looking at how it affects Naruto when you refused to look at how Mu's Jinton affects Tsunade?


For the third time, because the amber-sealing jar ignores arsenal. It may be part of Sandaime's arsenal, but it ignores Naruto's, as all that matters is words.

But you know what I take back what I said, because thinking about it, it's probably something like the user of the Jar needs to know the person's name to invoke the Jar's power on them. Sandaime not knowing Naruto's name, would probably be unable to invoke the jar on him. This is of course assuming that Kishi puts this limit on the Jar, which I seriously hope is the case.



> Use your brain and make a logical assumption for once. Mu having a technique that completely bypasses such a focal point of Tsunade's character gives him an advantage. Kishimoto doesn't have to freaking write it out for it to be true.


I'm sorry that i'm absolutely decimating your argument, but no need to get buthurt. 

Characters have multiple focal points, having 1 jutsu that can counter 1 of those focal points, if it lands, does not make you a bad match up.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yeah and i'm sure nothing bad will come of that
> There is no way that was a poorly disguised plot device



So Kishimoto's portrayal of the jar is written off as plot despite how broken _*you*_ think it is. Not Kishi himself?



> For the third time, because the amber-sealing jar ignores arsenal. It may be part of Sandaime's arsenal, but it ignores Naruto's, as all that matters is words.



I want you to explain to me how the sealing pot "ignores" the opponents Jutsu any more than Jinton...


----------



## Turrin (Apr 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> and i've shown that statement to not be necessarily true.


Turrin, "The norm is to assume they are at there best state, unless the OP says otherwise."
Ueharakk, "and i've shown that statement to not be necessarily true."

"Norm" does not equal always true 



> sure they do, thus if it was a 'naruto vs sandaime raikage' thread where naruto could only fight with using a clone, then you could list it as an advantage. However, it doesn't give the sennin mode clone an advantage because in a "SM clone vs sandaime raikage' thread, the stipulations stated have already disclosed that advantage.


So once again, "the stipulations give Naruto an advantage."



> Then you've just demonstrated the failures of a portrayal argument. Anyone can literally use that copout if they are faced with a thread that leads to a conclusion that they don't like.


If the limitations of the portrayal argument is that you can't call a victor for every conceivable match up, than yes i've displayed them LOL. Though i'd rather live with that limitation instead of trying to force an almost certainly faulty conclusion via "feats".



> you never know who's more likely to win.


Pretty sure I just said who was more likely to win in another scenario you gave me for this match lol.



> Brother, you are the one spouting BS. I shown you how your reasoning fails since it would force you into a double standard, and because you know that I am right and you literally cannot deny that reasoning, you're forced to ignore it and call it BS.


LOL...your talking about some bull-crap about someone giving birth to someone being an advantage, and than are going to sit here and pretend that your proving something. Please spare me this nonsense, or i'm not going to even bother responding any further.



> How one achieves the starting stipulations of a matchup are completely irrelevant to evaluating the matchup. Hey, maybe the conditions are hard or maybe even impossible to fulfill, it doesn't matter as implausible, difficult to achieve or not, we are evaluating the matchup within the parameters set by the OP. So regardless of the requirements or how one gets into a certain situation, in the situation where a sennin mode clone is up against Sandaime raikage, who'd win more than not?


This is all fine an dandy, but it doesn't change the fact that the stipulations are giving an advantage. Stipulations can be crafted to advantage one character or another; here you are crafting them to give an advantage to Naruto. That's all their is too it.



Rocky said:


> So Kishimoto's portrayal of the jar is written off as plot despite how broken _*you*_ think it is. Not Kishi himself?


Huh?



> I want you to explain to me how the sealing pot "ignores" the opponents Jutsu any more than Jinton...


Jinto does not ignore arsenal at all, it's a beam cannon, that can be blocked, dodged, etc... Whether or not it works depends solely on what the other Ninja arsenal contains and whether they can defend against it with that arsenal. Amber-Sealing Jar not something that a person's arsenal effects, as its mechanic is based on words. Again the issue i've always had with feats is the unknown arsenal, here that is not an issue as it doesn't matter only words do.


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## Rocky (Apr 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Huh?



Kishimoto himself obviously doesn't hold the jar to as high a regard as you do. I don't know when he gave the impression that it was "the most OP thing" he ever created.



> Jinto does not ignore arsenal at all, it's a beam cannon, that can be blocked, dodged, etc... Whether or not it works depends solely on what the other Ninja arsenal contains and whether they can defend against it with that arsenal. Amber-Sealing Jar not something that a person's arsenal effects, as its mechanic is based on words. Again the issue i've always had with feats is the unknown arsenal, here that is not an issue as it doesn't matter only words do.



Where was it said that the sealing pot ignores all potential counters to it? Are you saying Shinobi could not have techniques that that prevent the jar from sealing them? Or that block the sound of their name from reaching the jar? Or that prevent Sandaime from speaking their name in the first place?


----------



## trance (Apr 15, 2014)

Kakashi now has enough stamina to use Kamui many times in a single day before exhaustion starts to seriously affect him and even then, he is still a relatively capable fighter. He was quick enough to go toe-to-toe against Obito, so he easily has the speed advantage. Honestly, even if Jiraiya gets to Sage Mode, he still has no counter towards Kamui.

Kakashi wins.


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## ShinobisWill (Apr 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Very rarely do they matter



If you aren't going by feats, you shouldn't be in Battledome. This is all by feats. Feats give us something real to go by so that a discussion can exist beyond "well I _think_ Kishi is trying to convey that person A is stronger than person B according to my perception, so person A wins". Unless it's outright stated who the stronger is, we can't really rely on portrayal when that can be even more subjective.

It doesn't necessarily mean its true because honestly, Kishi can do whatever he wants. But that's kind of how things work here.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Turrin, "The norm is to assume they are at there best state, unless the OP says otherwise."
> Ueharakk, "and i've shown that statement to not be necessarily true."
> 
> "Norm" does not equal always true


you know what, nevermind.



Turrin said:


> So once again, "the stipulations give Naruto an advantage."


no they don't.  They would give a naruto clone starting the match in base  an advantage or a naruto with KCM/BM/BSM restricted and only allowed to fight sandaime raikage by using a single shadow clone an advantage.  It doesn't give a sennin mode clone an advantage because the identity of a sennin mode clone is a clone who's in sennin mode.



Turrin said:


> If the limitations of the portrayal argument is that you can't call a victor for every conceivable match up, than yes i've displayed them LOL. *Though i'd rather live with that limitation instead of trying to force an almost certainly faulty conclusion via "feats".*


Nope, that's not what you've shown at all.  You've shown that you literally can copout of any thread that you don't like by claiming 'uncallable'.  And the bolded is something you have to argue.  The featwise conclusions aren't at all faulty if we are simply trying to figure out who would probably win more than not.  



Turrin said:


> Pretty sure I just said who was more likely to win in another scenario you gave me for this match lol.


but you don't KNOW that.  All you are doing is asserting that in your opinion based on your reasoning, that's the most plausible result.  



Turrin said:


> LOL...your talking about some bull-crap about someone giving birth to someone being an advantage, and than are going to sit here and pretend that your proving something. Please spare me this nonsense, or i'm not going to even bother responding any further.


I guess I'll accept your concession then.   Please debate honestly, you know you are wrong, I've shown you exactly why it's so, and all you've been able to do is throw vague little insults and jabs like you are doing now.  If that's how you conduct yourself when you are debated into a corner, then 



Turrin said:


> This is all fine an dandy, but it doesn't change the fact that the stipulations are giving an advantage. Stipulations can be crafted to advantage one character or another; here you are crafting them to give an advantage to Naruto. That's all their is too it.


Once again, the matchup isn't Naruto vs Sandaime raikage, it's sennin mode naruto clone vs sandaime raikage, therefore naruto's clone starts in sennin mode. Maybe it's hard for naruto to enter sennin mode and make a clone against sandaime raikage, maybe it's not, it doesn't matter, the situation that the thread deals with has absolutely nothing to do with that, all it asks is that if these initial conditions are fulfilled (regardless of how plausible they can be fulfilled or not) who will most likely win? 

And that's how every single thread in the battledome is.  If someone made a konohomaru vs hashirama thread where hashirama starts off bleeding to death and in a catatonic state, obviously Konohomaru would win.  However, does that say anything about Konohomaru at full strength vs Hashirama at full strength?  No, it's only discussing what would happen in the scenario (as plausible or implausible as it may seem) in which Konohomaru is trying to kill a catatonic hashirama who's bleeding to death.

So the victor of sennin mode naruto's clone vs Sandaime raikage is just evaluating a situation in which a sennin mode naruto clone fights sandaime raikage with the other stipulations fulfilled.

Please stop arguing with something that you know is true.  Don't waste either of our times, it's fine to concede when you are wrong, i've done it in this thread before.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> no they don't.  They would give a naruto clone starting the match in base  an advantage or a naruto with KCM/BM/BSM restricted and only allowed to fight sandaime raikage by using a single shadow clone an advantage.  It doesn't give a sennin mode clone an advantage because the identity of a sennin mode clone is a clone who's in sennin mode.
> .


There isn't clone just walking around that is constantly in Sennin Modo; that is an impossibility. 



> Nope, that's not what you've shown at all. You've shown that you literally can copout of any thread that you don't like by claiming 'uncallable'. And the bolded is something you have to argue. The featwise conclusions aren't at all faulty if we are simply trying to figure out who would probably win more than not.


It's utter BS to suggest someone can't say they don't know. That's a perfectly rational standpoint to have in many NBD threads. 



> but you don't KNOW that. All you are doing is asserting that in your opinion based on your reasoning, that's the most plausible result.


In most cases I would be arguing for the most plausible result, but considering that match literally happened in the manga cannon, yes I do know that. 



> I guess I'll accept your concession then. Please debate honestly, you know you are wrong, I've shown you exactly why it's so, and all you've been able to do is throw vague little insults and jabs like you are doing now. If that's how you conduct yourself when you are debated into a corner, then


Insults lol, I've been extremely nice to you and praised you multiple times throughout our discussion. I called this one point BS and now suddenly i'm insulting you? 

As for debating honestly. You need to say that yourself, because you know very well that there is a distinction between someone being given birth and someone starting a match already in their super mode form.



> Once again, the matchup isn't Naruto vs Sandaime raikage, it's sennin mode naruto clone vs sandaime raikage, therefore naruto's clone starts in sennin mode. Maybe it's hard for naruto to enter sennin mode and make a clone against sandaime raikage, maybe it's not, it doesn't matter, the situation that the thread deals with has absolutely nothing to do with that, all it asks is that if these initial conditions are fulfilled (regardless of how plausible they can be fulfilled or not) who will most likely win?


I have no problem with that, however one must accept that the initial conditions are giving an advantage to the Naruto-Clone



> nd that's how every single thread in the battledome is. If someone made a konohomaru vs hashirama thread where hashirama starts off bleeding to death and in a catatonic state, obviously Konohomaru would win. However, does that say anything about Konohomaru at full strength vs Hashirama at full strength? No, it's only discussing what would happen in the scenario (as plausible or implausible as it may seem) in which Konohomaru is trying to kill a catatonic hashirama who's bleeding to death.


And the stipulations heavily advantage Konohamaru there



> Please stop arguing with something that you know is true. Don't waste either of our times, it's fine to concede when you are wrong, i've done it in this thread before.


Again you need to repeat this to yourself, as it laughable that your trying to say that the stipulations of a  match where Konohamaru fights a comatose Hashirama, do not advantage Konohamaru. There is no way in hell a smart guy like you actually believes this, so you are just making this shit up to try and make a point.



Rocky said:


> Kishimoto himself obviously doesn't hold the jar to as high a regard as you do. I don't know when he gave the impression that it was "the most OP thing" he ever created.


It's the SO6P's strongest treasure tool, which is heavily foreshadow to at least be in part the undoing of Madara. So yes he has indicated it's very powerful. Obviously I was exaggerating when I said most OP thing, I was just doing that to get my point across, that Kishi made it extremely OP



> Where was it said that the sealing pot ignores all potential counters to it? Are you saying Shinobi could not have techniques that that prevent the jar from sealing them? Or that block the sound of their name from reaching the jar? Or that prevent Sandaime from speaking their name in the first place?


I didn't think about blocking the sound of the name reaching the jar. That's a good point, okay I concede the point.


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## The Fool (Apr 15, 2014)

Yea, Kakashi and a whole slew of jounin got owned by Deva Path while Jiraiya was able to defeat three paths in a head to head. 

But beyond that Kakashi himself seems to infer that he is significantly weaker than Jiraiya a number of times. For one, he concedes that Naruto and the nine tails would be safer with Jiraiya rather than in Konoha. Akatsuki reinforces this perception when they waltz into Konoha without a care in the world and proceed to put Kakashi in a coma, but at the same time admit that as long as Naruto is in Jiraiya's hands obtaining the nine tails would be impossible without taking significant risks making it all but impractical to even make the attempt.  

So, based upon how both characters are portrayed in the manga and feats, it seems clear that Jiraiya is meant by the author to be perceived as significantly stronger than Kakashi.


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## ueharakk (Apr 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> There isn't clone just walking around that is constantly in Sennin Modo; that is an impossibility.


Concession accepted.  Debate honestly, i've explained multiple times how that's completely irrelevant.  The versus matchup is an evaluation of a scenario where the initial conditions have been met.  After those initial conditions are met, the requirements to meet those initial conditions have nothing to do with the results of the matchup.

Every single time you repeat your fallacious reasoning, you just prove again how bad your own logic is and how it forces you to lose all your integrity.



Turrin said:


> It's utter BS to suggest someone can't say they don't know. That's a perfectly rational standpoint to have in many NBD threads.


Don't waste my time.  Show me where i said you can't state that you don't know?  I literally said that even when you do make a positive statement, you still _don't know._  What im saying is that you can't simply say you don't know and leave it at that, you have to at least say which you think is more plausible than not.  



Turrin said:


> In most cases I would be arguing for the most plausible result, but considering that match literally happened in the manga cannon, yes I do know that.


That just shows your ignorance on how much you actually know.  You don't know how much plot has affected the outcome of the match in canon, you don't know exactly how much the factors in the match have affected the outcome of the match, you don't know if kishi would write the same fight in the exact same way.  You don't.  You might have strong evidence that indicates such, but you don't literally KNOW.



Turrin said:


> Insults lol, I've been extremely nice to you and praised you multiple times throughout our discussion. I called this one point BS and now suddenly i'm insulting you?


I don't care about praise, I care about truth.  And right now you are swapping an actual argument based on reason for insults.



Turrin said:


> As for debating honestly. You need to say that yourself, because you know very well that there is a distinction between someone being given birth and someone starting a match already in their super mode form.


Sure there's _a_ difference, but in the context of the logic you are using, the difference doesn't affect your logic or the conclusions of your logic.  You literally said that because clones don't naturally pop into existence and start in sennin mode, that it's unfair for them to start out that way.  I showed you about examples that you'd be ridiculous to refute, yet are refuted by your exact same logic.  

The thread isn't Naruto vs sandaime raikage, it's a sennin mode clone vs sandaime raikage.  thus how does naruto's ability to make a sennin mode clone have any bearing whatsoever on the sennin clone's ability to fight sandaime raikage after it's been made?  There is none.

If the argument has naruto's clone starting out in sennin mode, then obviously the outcome wouldn't necessarily show what would happen if naruto started off in base against sandaime and had to make the sennin mode clone.  Thus it's completely fair.



Turrin said:


> I have no problem with that, however one must accept that the initial conditions are giving an advantage to the Naruto-Clone


No they aren't.  The initial conditions would only be giving an advantage to a naruto clone that doesn't start off in sennin mode.  So sure, if one would try to say because a sennin mode naruto clone beats sandaime raikage, that a clone that begins to fight sandaime raikage without sennin mode, then you can tell them "hey that's not necessarily true because the clone that started in sennin mode had an advantage over the clone that started the fight in base".



Turrin said:


> And the stipulations heavily advantage Konohamaru there


yeah, which is why the argument would only conclude konohomaru the victor WITHIN THOSE STIPULATIONS and not necessarily under other stipulations.  So just like the konohomaru example, when evaluating Sandaime raikage vs Sennin mode naruto clone, the conclusion you'd reach would only be within those stipulations, it wouldn't necessarily apply to a situation where naruto's clone doesn't start in sennin mode, or the real naruto starts the fight without making a clone yet.  This is very simple stuff, do you get it yet?



Turrin said:


> Again you need to repeat this to yourself, as it laughable that your trying to say that the stipulations of a  match where Konohamaru fights a comatose Hashirama, do not advantage Konohamaru. There is no way in hell a smart guy like you actually believes this, so you are just making this shit up to try and make a point.


My goodness, I really really hope you are not serious with this.  Those stipulations give konohomaru an advantage over a Konohomaru who had to fight a healthy hashirama.  But the thread isn't about konohomaru vs a health hashirama, it's about a konohomaru against a hashirama who's on the verge of death.  Thus does Konohomaru having advantages over a Konohomaru that has to fight a healthy Hashirama mean anything whatsoever about how a Konohomaru would fair against this near death hashirama?  Obviously not.  

It's the exact same thing with sandaime raikage vs SM naruto clone.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 15, 2014)

@ueharakk

Your right that a versus match is about the conditions that are purposed by the OP, however objectively speaking we can still tell when those conditions favor one character or another. If you have any character start in Sennin Modo, yes that would be the conditions of the match that we must abide by, but we still can acknowledge that the conditions offer that character an advantage, that they otherwise wouldn't have. In this match you are giving the Naruto clone an advantage of starting in Sennin Modo. Therefore my thoughts on how the match would go down ultimately will be effected by the advantage that is being given out to the clone. For example when dat-clone beat Sandaime-Raikage, he was not being portrayed stronger than Raikage, he was being portrayed strong enough where he could win with a number of advantages on his side. So put a Naruto-clone in a match against Sandaime-Raikage and give him a number of advantages my thoughts on "dat-clones" chances to win the match would differ from if the match was set up with largely neutral conditions. This is why the issue of advantages matters to me, as it speaks towards a character's portrayal.

The only other thing worth addressing is that; yes someone can say they don't know the answer or even a likely outcome. Kishimoto gave us no indication how much Kabuto controlling Sandaime-Raikage impeded (or not) Sandaime Raikage's performance. Sandaime Raikage could be much better than Kabuto at controlling his body (or not); Kabuto may not have knowledge of all of Sandaime's Raikage's abilities leading to him using Sandaime Raikage at less than peak efficiency (or not). Again how can I tell what is is more likely here? You keep saying discuss the topic honestly, but when I honestly say I don't know you say I can't do that....and really that is another thing, all the shit i'm saying to you is honestly what I think, so let's cut that shit out too.

Anyway; I've more than answered your questions about this match:

- First scenario Naruto-Clone, because he is advantaged to a similar extent that he was in the manga-cannon duel, he wins
- Second scenario IDK who wins or even who is more likely to win

Now ether make whatever point your trying to make or I'm done with this, because I don't feel like going around in circles about this match forever, waiting for you to make whatever point your trying to make.


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## ueharakk (Apr 15, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @ueharakk
> 
> Your right that a versus match is about the conditions that are purposed by the OP, however objectively speaking we can still tell when those conditions favor one character or another.


No you can't.  What you can do is compare the conditions of the versus match to another versus match with different stipulations and claim X condition of one would favor a certain character versus the condition of another one.  The conditions alone don't tell you that.



Turrin said:


> If you have any character start in Sennin Modo, yes that would be the conditions of the match that we must abide by, but we still can acknowledge that the conditions offer that character an advantage, that they otherwise wouldn't have.


no you wouldn't since the character you are evaluating is sennin mode naruto vs sandaime raikage.  If the character being evaluated was a clone who doesn't start in sennin mode, then sure, the conditions favor him or her.



Turrin said:


> In this match you are giving the Naruto clone an advantage of starting in Sennin Modo.


but we are not evaluating 'a base naruto clone vs sandaime raikage' we are evaluating how a sennin mode naruto clone would do against him.  Thus advantage gained by having the time to transform into sennin mode would only apply to a clone that needs to do that after the match starts.  



Turrin said:


> Therefore my thoughts on how the match would go down ultimately will be effected by the advantage that is being given out to the clone. For example when dat-clone beat Sandaime-Raikage, he was not being portrayed stronger than Raikage, he was being portrayed strong enough where he could win with a number of advantages on his side. So put a Naruto-clone in a match against Sandaime-Raikage and give him a number of advantages my thoughts on "dat-clones" chances to win the match would differ from if the match was set up with largely neutral conditions. This is why the issue of advantages matters to me, as it speaks towards a character's portrayal.


But you see, it's not just dat-clone vs sandaime raikage.  We are not evaluating dat-clone, we are evaluating dat-clone when he's in sennin mode.  So sure, if there is a thread that pits dat-clone against sandaime raikge, and someone brings up sennin mode naruto's performance against sandaime raikage, you can list how he needed help to get into sennin mode as an advantage he had.  however, that's not applicable to a thread that compares how a naruto clone after he's in sennin mode (by whatever means) would do against sandaime raikage.  



Turrin said:


> *The only other thing worth addressing is that; yes someone can say they don't know the answer or even a likely outcome.* Kishimoto gave us no indication how much Kabuto controlling Sandaime-Raikage impeded (or not) Sandaime Raikage's performance. Sandaime Raikage could be much better than Kabuto at controlling his body (or not); Kabuto may not have knowledge of all of Sandaime's Raikage's abilities leading to him using Sandaime Raikage at less than peak efficiency (or not). Again how can I tell what is is more likely here? You keep saying discuss the topic honestly, but when I honestly say I don't know you say I can't do that....and really that is another thing, all the shit i'm saying to you is honestly what I think, so let's cut that shit out too.


Im not asking you to say you know the answer or even what's a likely outcome.  I'm asking you to state what you think is the *most likely* outcome.  Your statement about kishimoto giving us no indication of how much kabuto controlling him impeded him can be said about any agument in the manga.  All you'd have to do is break down the possible evidence for that assertion until you are at the unprovable assumptions and then you'd just claim "see how can i tell what is more likely here"?    



Turrin said:


> Anyway; I've more than answered your questions about this match:
> 
> - First scenario Naruto-Clone, because he is advantaged to a similar extent that he was in the manga-cannon duel, he wins


for the last time, the matchup isn't "Naruto-clone", it's naruto's clone in sennin mode vs Sandaime raikage.  



Turrin said:


> - Second scenario IDK who wins or even who is more likely to win


How about you make a case by case argument for that?  Take your unknowns that you claim are preventing you from drawing a conclusion and say "well if X is the case, then the conclusion would be __________, but if Y is teh case, then __________"



Turrin said:


> Now ether make whatever point your trying to make or I'm done with this, because I don't feel like going around in circles about this match forever, waiting for you to make whatever point your trying to make.


The point is, the portrayal argument would have you claim that a SM naruto clone > edo sandaime raikage, and there's a legitimate possibility that a sm clone >/= living sandaime raikage.  Do you think that that's true?  That SM Naruto's clones are actually stronger or on the same level as the edo kages?


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> The point is, the portrayal argument would have you claim that a SM naruto clone > edo sandaime raikage, and there's a legitimate possibility that a sm clone >/= living sandaime raikage.  Do you think that that's true?  That SM Naruto's clones are actually stronger or on the same level as the edo kages?


Portrayal argument would claim that War-Arc Naruto can beat Raikage with a single clone under very specific circumstances. Basically War-Arc Naruto is being portrayed as much stronger than the Edo-Kages as even a single clone of his can become a tangible threat to them. 

Now if you want to make a new  fannon character out of thin air, which is apparently what you want to do, based on your insistence that this is not a Naruto clone advantage by circumstance, but should be treated as autonomous from Naruto, the rules of Naruto's abilities, etc...  Than we must define this character by the conditions you've established: This character has all the attributes of a Naruto clone, but on top of that is given the abilities of being in Sennin Modo at all times and is omniscient in the respect that this characters has knowledge on whoever he faces going into the match. In the case of this Fannon character, I have no problem with the idea that he is around the level of Edo Sandaime Raikage, because not only does he have a degree of fricking omniscience, but suffers none of the draw-backs that are put in place by the author to balance Sennin Modo's incredible power.

However ultimately the creation of Fannon characters that are put in the NBD are not suppose to be taken very seriously and to try to fault portrayal based argumentation within the context of a Fannon character is extremely silly.


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## Santoryu (Apr 16, 2014)

Feats and portrayal often go hand in hand, why is so hard for people to understand this? Oh of course, I'm on Naruto-forums. 






The Fool said:


> Yea, Kakashi and a whole slew of jounin got owned by Deva Path while Jiraiya was able to defeat three paths in a head to head.



Deva path is much stronger than the any of the three paths Jiraya defeated, no? And I love how you forgot to mention that Kakashi also had to deal with demon path. Let's also not forget that Kakashi was actually to land a hit if it wasn't because of interferences.




> But beyond that Kakashi himself seems to infer that he is significantly weaker than Jiraiya a number of times.



Hey man, I remember Sasuke admitting inferiority to Kakashi. I guess this means Kakashi is much stronger than Sasuke.....
oh but wait....that was hundreds of chapters ago....
Sasuke also got stronger......

Hmmmmm.....

so going by your logic, we should disregard that Sasuke got stronger, and that chapters haven't passed since that statement was made? You're a genius! (sarcasm)






> So, based upon how both characters are portrayed in the manga and feats, it seems clear that Jiraiya is meant by the author to be perceived as significantly stronger than Kakashi.




Kakashi defeated Aakatasuki's leader and contended with Sharingan-Rinnegan equipped version 2 Jinjuriki despite being exhausted. Rikkudo Madara acknowledged Kakashi's usage of a very potent space time ability. Kakashi is the son of the White fang, whom happened to be superior to any of the Sannin-and the new generation surpassing the previous one has been implied many times. Your post is invalid.


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## ueharakk (Apr 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Now if you want to make a new  fannon character out of thin air, which is apparently what you want to do, based on your insistence that this is not a Naruto clone advantage by circumstance, but should be treated as autonomous from Naruto, the rules of Naruto's abilities, etc...


Dude, you really have to stop.  I've shown you MANY times how this is what EVERY thread in the battledome does.  No character instantly pops into the stipulations that the thread claims.  The characters have to be born, they have to grow up to the age they are, they have to learn the jutsu they did through their lifetimes, they have to get to the location, they have to do gain knowledge that the thread dictates etc. ALL of those are required things that each character would have to do in order to meet the initial conditions of the matchup, yet obviously how difficult it is for that character to meet those conditions are irrelevant to how the match would go down ONCE THOSE CONDITIONS HAVE BEEN MET.

You continuously just ignore that as you have absolutely no answer for it because it destroys your logic.  




Turrin said:


> Than we must define this character by the conditions you've established: This character has all the attributes of a Naruto clone, but on top of that is given the abilities of being in Sennin Modo at all times and is omniscient in the respect that this characters has knowledge on whoever he faces going into the match. In the case of this Fannon character, I have no problem with the idea that he is around the level of Edo Sandaime Raikage, because not only does he have a degree of fricking omniscience, but suffers none of the draw-backs that are put in place by the author to balance Sennin Modo's incredible power.


Since when was the naruto clone given the ability to be in sennin mode at all time?  All that's being said is that he starts in sennin mode.  Omniscience in respect to anything isn't omniscience as omniscience is ALL KNOWLEDGEABLE, that's just you trying to disingenuously make my position seem like an unreasonable one.  Why don't you call it what it is: that the clone has manga knowledge.

Reread what you've just typed.  You've literally just said that a thread where a sennin mode clone has manga knowledge on another character is so overpowered that he should be considered fanon and omniscient.  I'll ask you again, please debate honestly.  Don't waste my time.

I literally have no idea how you could argue that a clone starting a fight in sennin mode is an impossible scenario.  What are the scenarios in which Naruto would fight sandaime raikage?  In a war scenario or in a mission.  You think a sensor like naruto who can see people all over the continent would blinding stumble upon someone as powerful and with as much chakra as sandaime raikage while in BASE?  Obviously not, the chances of that happening are ridiculously small, the only way i can see that happening is if mabui teleports him right to where naruto is, but if that's the case then by your logic Sandaime raikage would be getting assistance from Mabui and thus you'd have to account for that as an advantage in your analysis.  

Shinobi don't magically appear 30 meters away from each other or even on the same battlefield.  If they do suddenly do that it's via some kind of transportation jutsu, or by their own form of mobility, and thus if the thread starts with sandaime raikage on the same battlefield let alone less than 100 meters away from a naruto who for some reason has just noticed sandaime raikage is there, then that's a massive advantage for him.

See where this is going?  Your logic falls flat on its face unless you use double standards, I'll repeat what everyone else except for you seems to understand: that the victor of the battle is evaluated within the parameters that the OP specifies and NOT by how difficult it is for one character to achieve those parameters.



Turrin said:


> However ultimately the creation of Fannon characters that are put in the NBD are not suppose to be taken very seriously and to try to fault portrayal based argumentation within the context of a Fannon character is extremely silly.


By your logic, literally EVERY character is a fanon character since no character in the NV pops into existence out of nowhere let alone 2 characters on the same battlefield with a certain amount of knowledge on each other.  

At this point, I think you already know you are wrong, you're just so pridefully invested in your stance that you have attempted to defend to the death that you don't care about how you go about doing so.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 16, 2014)

@ueharakk

First off,  for someone who complains about me insulting them, because I called one specific argument BS, you are desperately trying to insult me at every chance you get; which is kinda of funny to me. Your also trying to proclaim yourself the winner of a debate that doesn't even exist, this is a discussion not a debate (competition, etc....). With that in mind I have no problem acknowledging when i've been persuaded or proven wrong, I literally just did in my discussion with Rocky on Amber-Sealing-Jar. The reason i'm not agreeing with you, is not because a refusal to acknowledge any error of judgement on my part, it's because I do not find the points you are making very persuasive; that's not to say I find you a bad poster, because I actually have enjoyed many of your posts in the BD and appreciate the time and effort you put into them; just in this instance nothing you've presented is convincing me, period. 

Of course characters don't just pop into existence at a certain distance or suddenly get knowledge they never had. All of those things are manufactured by the conditions of the match. But guess what typically people acknowledge that certain condition such as distance, knowledge, etc... advantage (or disadvantage) one character or another. The same way that a clone starting in Sennin Modo would typically be considered an advantage. There are no double-standards here at all, i've always acknowledge that the conditions of the match, whether they be distance, knowledge, etc... can favor one character over another; I have absolutely no clue in-fact where your pulling the idea out from that I said no other conditions of the match can advantage one character. 

With that out of the way, thee only reason I brought up the creation of a fannon character is because you persist in saying that the clone is not advantaged in anyway by the conditions. So as I said, the only way to reconcile what your saying is if we created a totally new fannon character who has the ability to constantly be in Sennin Modo and gain detailed knowledge on whoever he is fighting; whether you want to call it a type of omniscience or not, I clearly defined the ability that this fannon character would need to have. This is ultimately because if we took an actual character (or in this case Naruto-Clone) from the manga and put them in the situation you outlined, there is no way that we can say he is not advantaged in certain ways. Already being in a mode that requires time to enter, that's an advantage, already having detailed knowledge on his enemy - while his enemy has none, that's another advantage. There is no way around acknowledging these facts if you want to use an actual character (or in this case clone) from the manga-cannon.

So when you say the portrayal argument would claim that Sennin Modo clone > Edo Sandaime Raikage; that's incorrect, portrayal says that Naruto can defeat Edo-Sandaime Raikage with a single clone with several advantages. How does that translate to the match your purpose, well by portrayal we can say the  clone is likely to win under those conditions, because the conditions you purposed advantaged the clone in multiple ways. 

Now let me ask you something, same scenario, but what does the "feats"-based argument say about that match? Does the "feats"-based argument say that Sandaime-Raikage would win, thus directly defying the manga-cannon? Or does it say that the Clone would win, which is the same conclusion that I arrive to based on portrayal, which your attempting to make the portrayal argument look foolish for arriving at. Pick your poison, ether way, I don't see how you can be using this example to elevate "feats" based argumentation beyond that of portrayal based argumentation.


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## ueharakk (Apr 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> First off,  for someone who complains about me insulting them, because I called one specific argument BS, you are desperately trying to insult me at every chance you get; which is kinda of funny to me. Your also trying to proclaim yourself the winner of a debate that doesn't even exist, this is a discussion not a debate (competition, etc....). With that in mind I have no problem acknowledging when i've been persuaded or proven wrong, I literally just did in my discussion with Rocky on Amber-Sealing-Jar. The reason i'm not agreeing with you, is not because a refusal to acknowledge any error of judgement on my part, it's because I do not find the points you are making very persuasive; that's not to say I find you a bad poster, because I actually have enjoyed many of your posts in the BD and appreciate the time and effort you put into them; just in this instance nothing you've presented is convincing me, period.


Dude, debate or discussion, if you fail to address the points that another person brings up that would make your argument logically invalid unless you accept those conclusions then you tacitly concede those points.  

It doesn't matter if you find my points persuasive or not, what matters is if you don't agree with the points, you give reasons why it doesn't persuade you.  However if you can't provide any reason or have to 



Turrin said:


> Of course characters don't just pop into existence at a certain distance or suddenly get knowledge they never had. All of those things are manufactured by the conditions of the match. But guess what typically people acknowledge that certain condition such as distance, knowledge, etc... advantage (or disadvantage) one character or another. The same way that a clone starting in Sennin Modo would typically be considered an advantage. There are no double-standards here at all, i've always acknowledge that the conditions of the match, whether they be distance, knowledge, etc... can favor one character over another; I have absolutely no clue in-fact where your pulling the idea out from that I said no other conditions of the match can advantage one character.


What you state is 'typical' is simply the general conditions in which people tend to make versus matches under in the BD.  Does that mean these conditions are fair?  Does it mean that these conditions reflect the conditions in which the two combatants would meet up for a fight in the manga? No.  Thus it doesn't matter if it's typical or not.  A clone starting a match in sennin mode would typically be considered an advantage since most matches in the battledome are conducted by both parties starting in base, it's got nothing to do with how a match would go about in the manga or how plausible such a scenario would happen, it's only about what's popular in the NBD.  So no, the popular or typical isn't the norm or fair, you have to evaluate the starting stipulations as neutral.  thus closer stipulations favor one, further stipulations favor another.



Turrin said:


> With that out of the way, thee only reason I brought up the creation of a fannon character is because you persist in saying that the clone is not advantaged in anyway by the conditions. So as I said, the only way to reconcile what your saying is if we created a totally new fannon character who has the ability to constantly be in Sennin Modo and gain detailed knowledge on whoever he is fighting; whether you want to call it a type of omniscience or not, I clearly defined the ability that this fannon character would need to have. This is ultimately because if we took an actual character (or in this case Naruto-Clone) from the manga and put them in the situation you outlined, there is no way that we can say he is not advantaged in certain ways. Already being in a mode that requires time to enter, that's an advantage, already having detailed knowledge on his enemy - while his enemy has none, that's another advantage. There is no way around acknowledging these facts if you want to use an actual character (or in this case clone) from the manga-cannon.


Dude, is a naruto clone in sennin mode not an actual character in the manga?  The character 'a naruto clone' only tells us that it's a clone of naruto, it doesn't tell us what state it's currently in.  I don't see how a naruto clone in sennin mode is any less of a character than a naruto clone in base, in KCM, in BM etc.  The only way a naruto clone starting in sennin mode is an advantage is if you are comparing it to a naruto clone that starts in base mode which is something that does not define a naruto clone, sennin mode in and of itself isn't an advantage, it's only a relative advantage.  

Don't know where you got the idea that the clone had  to constantly be in sennin mode, and don't you dare try to rationalize the act of calling manga knowledge omniscience.  Even full knowledge is infinitely below Omniscience. 



Turrin said:


> So when you say the portrayal argument would claim that Sennin Modo clone > Edo Sandaime Raikage; that's incorrect, portrayal says that Naruto can defeat Edo-Sandaime Raikage with a single clone with several advantages. How does that translate to the match your purpose, well by portrayal we can say the  clone is likely to win under those conditions, because the conditions you purposed advantaged the clone in multiple ways.


I gave you a specific thread that put a sennin mode naruto clone against edo sandaime raikage. What's the conclusion portrayal gives you for that thread?  I have no idea why you keep trying to switch the topic to evaluating "a naruto clone" when I've been explicit and clear that we aren't evaluating 'a naruto clone" we are evaluating "a SM naruto clone".  

In addition to that, these advantages are only advantages depending on which scenario you compare them to.  If we are just talking about A naruto clone, Sandaime raikage has some advantages over naruto like having an edo body with unlimited chakra and regen, and having the starting distance close enough that naruto can't comfortably enter sennin mode.  So you have to take into account those advantages as well.  



Turrin said:


> Now let me ask you something, same scenario, but what does the "feats"-based argument say about that match? Does the "feats"-based argument say that Sandaime-Raikage would win, thus directly defying the manga-cannon? Or does it say that the Clone would win, which is the same conclusion that I arrive to based on portrayal, which your attempting to make the portrayal argument look foolish for arriving at. Pick your poison, ether way, I don't see how you can be using this example to elevate "feats" based argumentation beyond that of portrayal based argumentation.


No feats, would lead you to the same conclusion more often than not.  However, feats wouldn't allow you to conclude that a sennin mode clone capable of using a rasengan is anywhere near the level of an edo kage.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 16, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Dude, debate or discussion, if you fail to address the points that another person brings up that would make your argument logically invalid unless you accept those conclusions then you tacitly concede those points.
> 
> It doesn't matter if you find my points persuasive or not, what matters is if you don't agree with the points, you give reasons why it doesn't persuade you.  However if you can't provide any reason or have to
> .


What do you think i've been doing with these long responses 



> What you state is 'typical' is simply the general conditions in which people tend to make versus matches under in the BD. Does that mean these conditions are fair? Does it mean that these conditions reflect the conditions in which the two combatants would meet up for a fight in the manga? No. Thus it doesn't matter if it's typical or not. A clone starting a match in sennin mode would typically be considered an advantage since most matches in the battledome are conducted by both parties starting in base, it's got nothing to do with how a match would go about in the manga or how plausible such a scenario would happen, it's only about what's popular in the NBD. So no, the popular or typical isn't the norm or fair, you have to evaluate the starting stipulations as neutral. thus closer stipulations favor one, further stipulations favor another.


I don't believe I said anything about "fairness", I said the conditions advantage one party. In the manga Naruto (or his clones) need time to enter Sennin Modo, so setting it up so they are already in that mode at match start, eliminates this need, and grants them an advantage. Etc....



> Dude, is a naruto clone in sennin mode not an actual character in the manga? The character 'a naruto clone' only tells us that it's a clone of naruto, it doesn't tell us what state it's currently in. I don't see how a naruto clone in sennin mode is any less of a character than a naruto clone in base, in KCM, in BM etc. The only way a naruto clone starting in sennin mode is an advantage is if you are comparing it to a naruto clone that starts in base mode which is something that does not define a naruto clone, sennin mode in and of itself isn't an advantage, it's only a relative advantage.


A Clone isn't a character period. But even if we consider it one. There is no clone that is eternally in Sennin Modo. Setting the conditions that a clone starts in Sennin Modo assumes that the clone has been given prior prep to enter Sennin Modo. 



> Don't know where you got the idea that the clone had to constantly be in sennin mode, and don't you dare try to rationalize the act of calling manga knowledge omniscience. Even full knowledge is infinitely below Omniscience.


Considering I said a type of Omniscience not Omniscience itself, I really don't have to justify anything.



> In addition to that, these advantages are only advantages depending on which scenario you compare them to. If we are just talking about A naruto clone, Sandaime raikage has some advantages over naruto like having an edo body with unlimited chakra and regen, and having the starting distance close enough that naruto can't comfortably enter sennin mode. So you have to take into account those advantages as well.


I never said I wasn't taking these conditions into account tho 

But one has to also take into account knowledge. Granting Naruto knowledge is the reason why he'd instantly go for Sennin Modo. Without that he could and probably would be done in long before he thought to use the specific strategy of entering Sennin Modo and deflecting Hell-Bringer.

It's not just that the clone gets the advantage of starting in Sennin Modo, but also that he gets the knowledge advantage as well. These two things combine to allow the clone a likely victory.



> No feats, would lead you to the same conclusion more often than not. However, feats wouldn't allow you to conclude that a sennin mode clone capable of using a rasengan is anywhere near the level of an edo kage.


How?


----------



## StickaStick (Apr 16, 2014)

Turrin, how is your name the only one not affected? You got friends up in high places or what


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2014)

The Format said:


> Turrin, how is your name the only one not affected? You got friends up in high places or what


The sparkles are magic; idk lol


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## StickaStick (Apr 16, 2014)

Well I mean they're other posters with the sparkles and their names weren't affected so I'm just curious lol


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## ueharakk (Apr 16, 2014)

Turrin said:


> What do you think i've been doing with these long responses


Just typing a long response doesn't mean you've addressed the point, you can still be ignoring an argument.



Turrin said:


> I don't believe I said anything about "fairness", I said the conditions advantage one party. In the manga Naruto (or his clones) need time to enter Sennin Modo, so setting it up so they are already in that mode at match start, eliminates this need, and grants them an advantage. Etc....


okay well if that's the case, you also have to make it a point to say that the starting distance being close is an advantage for sandaime raikage.



Turrin said:


> A Clone isn't a character period. But even if we consider it one. There is no clone that is eternally in Sennin Modo. Setting the conditions that a clone starts in Sennin Modo assumes that the clone has been given prior prep to enter Sennin Modo.


Dont' waste my time, since when do the starting conditions require the clone to eternally be in sennin mode?  Also, a clone can be in sennin mode for the duration of its existence and fullfill the requirements for it to have always been in sennin mode.  SM Naruto can make a senin mode clone, thus the clone does not require any prior prep to enter sennin mode.  

And of course for the millionth time, only a clone that doesn't start in sennin mode I.E. a BASE clone would need prep to enter sennin mode, thus the thread would no longer be Sennin mode clone vs character, it would be BASE clone vs character.



Turrin said:


> Considering I said a type of Omniscience not Omniscience itself, I really don't have to justify anything.


Considering omniscience in respect to X completely defeats the meaning of using the word, you using that word clearly is a deceitful  attempt to make my own stance seem like a less rational one.



Turrin said:


> I never said I wasn't taking these conditions into account tho


you implicitly say that when you only list the advantages Naruto and not those advantages that sandaime raikage has.  



Turrin said:


> But one has to also take into account knowledge. Granting Naruto knowledge is the reason why he'd instantly go for Sennin Modo. Without that he could and probably would be done in long before he thought to use the specific strategy of entering Sennin Modo and deflecting Hell-Bringer.


Um, no.  If Naruto has no knowledge, he'd try to gain knowledge by entering sennin mode or a mode that can give him that.  He'd pick up the chakra quantity and decide to enter sennin mode.  Plus, a situation where there is no knowledge at all would favor sandaime raikage, thus you list that as an advantage for sandaime.  

Having knowledge on sandaime raikage's hellbringer is an advantage for Naruto sure.



Turrin said:


> It's not just that the clone gets the advantage of starting in Sennin Modo, but also that he gets the knowledge advantage as well. These two things combine to allow the clone a likely victory.


Once again, a sennin mode clone is being evaluated, thus since it's already in sage mode, it doesn't need to enter sennin mode thus the advantage of being able to start in sage mode wouldn't factor into it against Sandaime, it would apply to a BASE CLONE with the stipulation that it starts in sennin mode.  

Also, starting in sennin mode as an advantage for a base clone is only an advantage if the starting distance is close enough for sandaime to reach it before it enters sennin mode or there is no prep which either way are advantages for sandaime raikage, thus the advantages would balance out or counterweight each other.

The knowledge advantage is an unparalleled advantage that the clone comes into the fight with.




Turrin said:


> How?


because that would mean that sennin mode naruto could solo all the edo kages without much difficulty since he's capable of creating many sennin mode clones that can use rasengans....


----------



## Rocky (Apr 17, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm sorry that i'm absolutely decimating your argument, but no need to get buthurt.
> 
> Characters have multiple focal points, having 1 jutsu that can counter 1 of those focal points, if it lands, does not make you a bad match up.



The only decimating you've done recently is to your image.

Answer this: If I put Tsunade up against Mu but restricted Byakugo, would you consider Mu the likely victor?


----------



## Turrin (Apr 18, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Just typing a long response doesn't mean you've addressed the point, you can still be ignoring an argument.


What point did I not address?



> okay well if that's the case, you also have to make it a point to say that the starting distance being close is an advantage for sandaime raikage.


You made the starting distance 50m tho  



> Dont' waste my time, since when do the starting conditions require the clone to eternally be in sennin mode? Also, a clone can be in sennin mode for the duration of its existence and fullfill the requirements for it to have always been in sennin mode. SM Naruto can make a senin mode clone, thus the clone does not require any prior prep to enter sennin mode.


You seem to be missing the point. The clone would need to be able to be eternally in Sennin Modo, for it not to be advantaged by the conditions. 



> And of course for the millionth time, only a clone that doesn't start in sennin mode I.E. a BASE clone would need prep to enter sennin mode, thus the thread would no longer be Sennin mode clone vs character, it would be BASE clone vs character.


You know what i'm done with this. I've explained it to you 50 times now why this doesn't make any-sense to me. So I disagree plain and simple, ether accept it and try to get your point across another way, or I'm done here, because I don't feel like going in circles with you forever.



> Considering omniscience in respect to X completely defeats the meaning of using the word, you using that word clearly is a deceitful attempt to make my own stance seem like a less rational one.


I used it because I didn't have any better word for a character magically gets detailed intel on whoever he is facing (what do you call that?). Beyond that you can believe whatever you want.....I'm no going to sit here and argue with you about what you incorrectly believe my thought process was.



> you implicitly say that when you only list the advantages Naruto and not those advantages that sandaime raikage has.


Knowledge - Knowledge: manga for naruto none for sandaime 
Distance: 50 meters 
Clone starts match in sennin modo 
Amber-Sealing Jar restricted 
Sandaime-Raikage controlled by Kabuto 

What is this big advantage for Sandaime-Raikage that i'm failing to take note of?



> Um, no. If Naruto has no knowledge, he'd try to gain knowledge by entering sennin mode or a mode that can give him that. He'd pick up the chakra quantity and decide to enter sennin mode.


In the manga cannon dat-clone w/o knowledge needed to be saved by alliance members and only used his Sennin Modo/deflect hellbringer strategy once he was given knowledge. So no I think it's extremely unlikely that dat-clone would win 1v1 without knowledge.



> Plus, a situation where there is no knowledge at all would favor sandaime raikage, thus you list that as an advantage for sandaime.


So unless Naruto has precise knowledge on Sandaime Raikage's weakness, Sandaime Raikage is advantaged 



> because that would mean that sennin mode naruto could solo all the edo kages without much difficulty since he's capable of creating many sennin mode clones that can use rasengans....


This isn't what I asked you. I asked you how does a "feats" based argument allow you to conclude that "dat"-clone wins, but is not superior to Sandaime-Raikage.



Rocky said:


> Answer this: If I put Tsunade up against Mu but restricted Byakugo, would you consider Mu the likely victor?


I see no issue with someone concluding that Mu beats Tsunade, Byakugo restricted or not, as I can see an argument being made for Mu being on Tsunade's general "level", so if you want to believe Mu wins whatever that's kind of up to opinion until the author gives us something more concrete. Only thing I'd take issue with is believing Mu is an entire tier better than Tsunade or in NBD terms would low diff or stomp Tsunade.


----------



## ShadowReaper (Apr 18, 2014)

Kakashi just Kamui's him and the fight is over.


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## Rocky (Apr 18, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I see no issue with someone concluding that Mu beats Tsunade, Byakugo restricted or not, as I can see an argument being made for Mu being on Tsunade's general "level."



I have an issue with this. Wouldn't regeneration being restricted _lower_ Tsunade's general level?

Regeneration in general is a major contributor to Tsunade's "power" as a combatant. If she's matched against a Shinobi that can nullify that, I don't see how you can claim that that Shinobi doesn't have some sort of advantage.

So I'll ask again, and I would like a more direct answer. If one of Tsunade's major skills were restricted (which it basically is, because it's useless against Mu's Jinton), would you find it likely that Tsunade would lose? They were on the same general level _before_ the restriction..right?


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## Turrin (Apr 18, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I have an issue with this. Wouldn't regeneration being restricted _lower_ Tsunade's general level?
> 
> Regeneration in general is a major contributor to Tsunade's "power" as a combatant. If she's matched against a Shinobi that can nullify that, I don't see how you can claim that that Shinobi doesn't have some sort of advantage.
> 
> So I'll ask again, and I would like a more direct answer. If one of Tsunade's major skills were restricted (which it basically is, because it's useless against Mu's Jinton), would you find it likely that Tsunade would lose? They were on the same general level _before_ the restriction..right?


If a shinobi couldn't get past Tsunade's regeneration their chances of winning would be incredibly small to begin with. So no I don't see that as bad match up, I see that as a match up worth discussing.


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## ueharakk (Apr 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> What point did I not address?


I'm not going to babysit you, go back, and address those points.



Turrin said:


> You made the starting distance 50m tho


And i made him start in sennin mode.  thus since you count starting in sennin mode an advantage for the clone, you have to count 50m as an advantage for sandaime raikage.  Don't make me hold your hand and walk you through the blatantly obvious.



Turrin said:


> You seem to be missing the point. The clone would need to be able to be eternally in Sennin Modo, for it not to be advantaged by the conditions.


Of course it wouldn't.  Naruto isn't eternally 16, sandaime isn't eternally an adult, both combatants aren't eternally at the location or starting distances of the arena ect.  Don't waste my time.



Turrin said:


> You know what i'm done with this. I've explained it to you 50 times now why this doesn't make any-sense to me. So I disagree plain and simple, ether accept it and try to get your point across another way, or I'm done here, because I don't feel like going in circles with you forever.


You can say it doesn't make sense to you 50 times, but if you give reasoning that I've refuted and thus are required to ignore my arguments and simply reassert defeated points, then it means you have no reason for it not making any sense to you, it's simply you ignoring my own arguments.

It's basically this, you state, I answer, you ignore my answer and restate, i answer again, you ignore my answer and restate etc.  That's the only reason why it's going in circles.



Turrin said:


> I used it because I didn't have any better word for a character magically gets detailed intel on whoever he is facing (what do you call that?). Beyond that you can believe whatever you want.....I'm no going to sit here and argue with you about what you incorrectly believe my thought process was.


By that logic ANY character in literally ANY thread would be omniscient if they have manga knowledge.  For the millionth time, how difficult or easy one fulfills the stipulations of the match are completely irrelevant to the conclusion of the matchup after those stipulations are fulfilled.  



Turrin said:


> Knowledge - Knowledge: manga for naruto none for sandaime
> Distance: 50 meters
> Clone starts match in sennin modo
> Amber-Sealing Jar restricted
> ...


the starting distance being 50 meters is the massive advantage for him.  Shinobi don't just magically pop into existence 50 meters away from each other on the battlefield.  Also, if sandaime raikage were to have the amber sealing pot with him, he'd have mabui send it to him via the teleportation technique, thus having that outside help is an advantage for him so amber sealing jar restricted means jack.



Turrin said:


> In the manga cannon dat-clone w/o knowledge needed to be saved by alliance members and only used his Sennin Modo/deflect hellbringer strategy once he was given knowledge. So no I think it's extremely unlikely that dat-clone would win 1v1 without knowledge.


But it's not dat-clone we are talking about, we are talking about dat-clone IN SENNIN MODE.  Did naruto need to be saved in KCM? Did he need to be saved in SM? No, it was only when he was in base that he needed to be saved.  



Turrin said:


> So unless Naruto has precise knowledge on Sandaime Raikage's weakness, Sandaime Raikage is advantaged


sure, he has an advantage in relation to a scenario where naruto does have knowledge.



Turrin said:


> This isn't what I asked you. I asked you how does a "feats" based argument allow you to conclude that "dat"-clone wins, but is not superior to Sandaime-Raikage.


because that would mean that sennin mode naruto could solo all the edo kages without much difficulty since he's capable of creating many sennin mode clones that can use rasengans.  that's literally why a feats-based argument would have dat-clone winning, but not be superior to sandaime-raikage.  Can a sennin mode clone beat muu or trollkage with just a rasengan?  Can it beat the hachibi with just a rasengan?  Obviously not.


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## Turrin (Apr 19, 2014)

@ueharakk



> It's basically this, you state, I answer, you ignore my answer and restate, i answer again, you ignore my answer and restate etc. That's the only reason why it's going in circles.


Actually this is what I feel like your doing and Is why I'm done with the conversation.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Kamui GG doesn't exist in the actual manga. It's made up by fans who think "feats" actually matter. In reality Kamui is primarily a defensive Jutsu or a Jutsu used after an opening has already been created through the usage of other Jutsu. Kakashi just Kamui'ing Jiriaya's head off is point blank never happening.
> 
> With that said I do think MS-Kakashi at his best, before blindness was too big of an issue could give Jiriaya a good fight, ultimately Jiriaya* possessing mary-sue mode (Sennin Modo) would probably give him the win though*.



Like how it gave him the win before right ? 
1

Or like how it gave Naruto the win
1

or like how it gave Kabuto the win
1

You know, I can try to understand the "hype and portrayal" perspective, but what you'r saying here is neither. Its just some twisted subjective shit.


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## Turrin (Apr 19, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like how it gave him the win before right ?
> .


The enemies your listing are Nagato and EMS-Sasuke + MS-Edo-Itachi. Kakashi is no where near their strength. So your examples are therefore in no way germane to the context of my post; that in a fight between two characters of similar "level", that the authors extremely favorable portrayal of Sennin Modo, may indeed give the user the edge.


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## Mercurial (Apr 19, 2014)

Lol.

In Pain arc, Kakashi was already fighting Deva Path, and Nagato felt the need to send the second strongest body to help Deva Path in the fight. A fight where Kakashi didn't actually use his MS, he understood the enemy's power and cornered him. And obviously Kakashi's hype and portrayal had a level up in the current arc. On the other side, in Pain arc, Nagato sent only Animal Path to face Jiraiya. And when Jiraiya entered SM, he sent Human and Preta Path... and Jiraiya said that he stood no chances, and he had to run away and use a last resort strategy.

Madara hyped Kamui and his user, in the person of Kakashi Hatake, chapter 659.

Rinnegan Obito admitted inferiority to Kakashi, chapter 636.

If you want to talk about shit, at least know that shit. But you think that Jiraiya is on par with Itachi, so...

Kakashi blitzes base Jiraiya with the help of a smart trick or diversion. And he doesn't let him enter SM. If you grant Jiraiya the SM from the start, Kakashi simply kills him with Kamui.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The enemies your listing are Nagato and EMS-Sasuke + MS-Edo-Itachi. Kakashi is no where near their strength. So your examples are therefore in no way germane to the context of my post; that in a fight between two characters of similar "level", that the authors extremely favorable portrayal of Sennin Modo, may indeed give the user the edge.



Well the author favors MS too.  How many times did Kamui save the day ? Thats not even an argument.


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## Rocky (Apr 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> If a shinobi couldn't get past Tsunade's regeneration their chances of winning would be incredibly small to begin with.



Most Shinobi on Tsunade's "level" cannot.

Also, I think you're missing one of my points. If I make a thread with two scenarios - one with Tsunade's regeneration restricted, and one with it allowed - do Mu's chances of winning go up in the former?

If two characters are portrayed near the same level, but you restrict a major part of one character's arsenal, wouldn't the restricted character lose?


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## Orochimaru (Apr 19, 2014)

Is this a joke thread?


----------



## StickaStick (Apr 19, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Lol.
> 
> In Pain arc, Kakashi was already fighting Deva Path, and Nagato felt the need to send the second strongest body to help Deva Path in the fight. A fight where Kakashi didn't actually use his MS, he understood the enemy's power and cornered him. And obviously Kakashi's hype and portrayal had a level up in the current arc. On the other side, in Pain arc, Nagato sent only Animal Path to face Jiraiya. And when Jiraiya entered SM, he sent Human and Preta Path... and Jiraiya said that he stood no chances, and he had to run away and use a last resort strategy.
> 
> ...



The Obito fan in me compels me to point out that this is being taken out of context, disregarding Obito's (and Kakashi's) mindset in the fight and the circumstances leading up to it. Plus I don't think you'll find one sane person who believes War-Arc Kakashi > Rinnegan Obito just on the face of it, anyway.

To say on-topic I'll just reiterate what I said before that I think normally under I.C. conditions Kakashi would have an uphill battle going against someone who's displayed maybe the most well rounded assortment of jutsus in the game and one of the best power-ups to boot if he can enter it successfully. However OP does stipulate Kakashi is "sligtly aggressive" so he should be more willing to pressure Jiraiya with Kamui offensively and maybe even go for headsnipes if he's feeling frisky. Kakashi mid-high diff.


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## Turrin (Apr 19, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well the author favors MS too.  How many times did Kamui save the day ? Thats not even an argument.


I never said it was a matter of saving the day, so your right that's not even the argument lol.



Rocky said:


> Most Shinobi on Tsunade's "level" cannot.


I'm sure this is based on BS "feats" and even then i'm sure "most' shinobi on Tsunade's level have shown at least 1 Jutsu that can deal with Byakugo's regen.



> Also, I think you're missing one of my points. If I make a thread with two scenarios - one with Tsunade's regeneration restricted, and one with it allowed - do Mu's chances of winning go up in the former?


Of course they do, but restricting Byakugo-Regen (you know Byakugo does more than regen) is not the same thing as a Jutsu that can counter it's regeneration. Let's take Mu for example. He has shown 1 Jutsu (Jinton) that could kill Tsunade despite Byakugo, however Byakugo is still keeping her safe from many of Mu's other Jutsu. Now restrict Byakugo and suddenly Tsunade is open to being KO'd by more of Mu's Jutsu. 

One of Mu's,  a character who is roughly around Tsunade's level, best Jutsu being able to counter Tsunade's Byakugo regen is hardly a bad match up; in-fact it's what's expected as the norm for someone around Tsunade's "level".


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I never said it was a matter of saving the day, so your right that's not even the argument lol.


You are basically saying that in a fight between 2 opponents around the same level, author will favor SM. You know this how ? Because of Hashirama vs Madara ? Lol you'r a joke.


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## Turrin (Apr 19, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You are basically saying that in a fight between 2 opponents around the same level, author will favor SM. You know this how ? Because of Hashirama vs Madara ? Lol you'r a joke.


No i'm saying the author tends to asspull new things for Sennin Modo and he also has shown Sennin Modo as fluid, in the sense that ones skill with it can increase in the heat of battle, with ill defined upper limit. Considering that I give the Sennin Modo user an edge; how much that edge is worth is up to Kishimoto's wankery.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No i'm saying the author tends to asspull new things for Sennin Modo and he also has shown Sennin Modo as fluid, in the sense that ones skill with it can increase in the heat of battle, with ill defined upper limit. Considering that I give the Sennin Modo user an edge; how much that edge is worth is up to Kishimoto's wankery.



Dude this is probably the most subjective thing I read in BD. Seriously stop.


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## Rocky (Apr 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Now restrict Byakugo and suddenly Tsunade is open to being KO'd by more of Mu's Jutsu.



Like what.



> One of Mu's,  a character who is roughly around Tsunade's level, best Jutsu being able to counter Tsunade's Byakugo regen is hardly a bad match up; in-fact it's what's expected as the norm for someone around Tsunade's "level".



Tell me, who else around Tsunade's level has such a casual way to bypass her regeneration.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Like what.
> .


Like all the other jutsu that would typical endanger someones life, if they weren't a regeneration monster.



> Tell me, who else around Tsunade's level has such a casual way to bypass her regeneration.


Jinton, one of (if not thee) best Jutsu Mu has, is casual now?

Orochimaru - White Snake Venom
Jiraiya - Frog Song
Killer B - Bijuu Bomb
Gaara - Sand Sealing
Minato - Reaper Death Seal
Tobirama - Tandem Explosive Tags
Yagura - Biju Bomb
Sandaime Raikage - Amber Sealing Jar
MS-Obito - Kamui Warp
Kakashi - Kamui Warp
Itachi - Totsuka Sword
Old Hiruzen - Multi Element Barrage
Kisame - Chakra absorption
Sasori - Poison [debatable]
Mizuka - Joki Boi [debatable]
Etc....

And that is only shown feats



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Dude this is probably the most subjective thing I read in BD. Seriously stop.


Except it's things we literally saw in the manga....


----------



## Rocky (Apr 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Like all the other jutsu that would typical endanger someones life, if they weren't a regeneration monster.



What does Mu have that would endanger Tsunade's life other than Jinton? His sword? Against Her strength & Taijutsu?




> Jinton, one of (if not thee) best Jutsu Mu has, is casual now?



Isn't that all we saw from him? 

Yes, it was casual. He can make a hand-sign and fire a beam that can erase her. It's pretty casual for Mu, unless you're suggesting he can only use it like one or two times before the Chakra drain kills him.

Orochimaru - White Snake Venom- _That beats Byakugo? She can counter the venom._
Jiraiya - Frog Song- _Not casual. Requires vast amounts of preparation to pull off._
Killer B - Bijuu Bomb-_ B is above the Sannin._
Gaara - Sand Sealing- _Can this seal people? Also, can't she just break out?_
Minato - Reaper Death Seal- _Basically the opposite of a casual jutsu._
Tobirama - Tandem Explosive Tags- _Doesn't defeat her regen for sure, plus requires Edo Tensei set up._
Yagura - Biju Bomb- _Possibly, but yes this is a chance._
Sandaime Raikage - Amber Sealing Jar- _Sure_
MS-Obito - Kamui Warp- _Obito is above the Sannin, but yes._
Kakashi - Kamui Warp- _Yes._
Itachi - Totsuka Sword- _Itachi is above the Sannin, but yes._
Old Hiruzen - Multi Element Barrage- _No. She tanks and regens._
Kisame - Chakra absorption- _What? _
Sasori - Poison [debatable]- _She can counter poison. _
Mizuka - Joki Boi [debatable]- _She tanks and regenrates._

The ones I said "yes" to.....yeah they're good match-ups for her.


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> What does Mu have that would endanger Tsunade's life other than Jinton? His sword? Against Her strength & Taijutsu?
> .


His sword sure. Beyond that to sit here and pretend Mu only has Jinton (& Invis/sensing) is ridiculous



> Isn't that all we saw from him?


No we also saw Invis 

There is absolutely no reason to consider using Jiton to be something casual for Mu.



> Yes, it was casual. He can make a hand-sign and fire a beam that can erase her. It's pretty casual for Mu, unless you're suggesting he can only use it like one or two times before the Chakra drain kills him.


Even if he could use it 5 or 6 times it would not be casual. It's implied to be one of, if not thee, strongest Jutsu Mu has.



> The ones I said "yes" to.....yeah they're good match-ups for her.


So over half the characters I listed are bad match ups for Tsunade, with many of the others being debatable, and that was only a list based on shown feats and things that I thought of off the top of my head lol.  Basically what your saying is that anyone who has some way to counter one of a characters better abilities/jutsu is a bad match up for them, which is extremely silly.


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## Rocky (Apr 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Beyond that to sit here and pretend Mu only has Jinton (& Invis/sensing) is ridiculous



In your opinion.

But I don't care what else he might have in general; I'm asking for evidence that he has something capable of endangering Tsunade.



> There is absolutely no reason to consider using Jiton to be something casual for Mu.



Except he used it pretty casually. 



> Even if he could use it 5 or 6 times it would not be casual. It's implied to be one of, if not thee, strongest Jutsu Mu has.



What does the _power_ of Jinton have to do with anything? 



> Basically what your saying is that anyone who has some way to counter one of a characters better abilities/jutsu is a bad match up for them, which is extremely silly.



No, I'm saying anyone who can bypass Tsunade's is a bad match up for her. I said nothing about other characters.


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> In your opinion.


Nope it's just ridiculous to believe a Kage like Mu has 3 abilities/Jutsu plain and simple.



> But I don't care what else he might have in general; I'm asking for evidence that he has something capable of endangering Tsunade.


Invisible attacks with Swords/Kunai/whatever. And again that is from shown feats only. 



> Except he used it pretty casually.


Where was it indicated that he used it casually? He used it to counter Onoki's Jinton and when faced with 2 Kages as his enemies.



> What does the power of Jinton have to do with anything?


When was the power of Jinton brought up? I'm saying for Mu Jinton is clearly one of his triumph cards. 



> No, I'm saying anyone who can bypass Tsunade's is a bad match up for her. I said nothing about other characters.


You said nothing about other characters, but your logic is indicative of that. If your saying that anyone who can counter one of Tsunade's best abilities/jutsu is a bad match up for her, than obviously you must extend that reasoning to other characters.


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## Rocky (Apr 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Nope it's just ridiculous to believe a Kage like Mu has 3 abilities/Jutsu plain and simple.



...in your opinion.



> Where was it indicated that he used it casually? He used it to counter Onoki's Jinton and when faced with 2 Kages as his enemies.



It wasn't indicated, it was shown. Every time he wanted to use Jinton, he just went ahead and used it with no consequence, casually.



> When was the power of Jinton brought up? I'm saying for Mu Jinton is clearly one of his triumph cards.



* It's implied to be one of, if not thee, strongest Jutsu Mu has. *

Sounds like a statement regarding power to me.  

Nevertheless, Jinton being a "trump card" is completely irrelevant. 



> If your saying that anyone who can counter one of Tsunade's best abilities/jutsu is a bad match up for her, than obviously you must extend that reasoning to other characters.



Not exactly. My analysis is based on Tsunade and the way she does battle, not others.


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ...in your opinion.


So are you saying you believe Mu only has 3 Jutsu/abilities?



> It wasn't indicated, it was shown. Every time he wanted to use Jinton, he just went ahead and used it with no consequence, casually.


So let me get this straight your "evidence"  Is that Mu used Jinton to counter Onoki's Jinton and when against 2 Kages; therefore it's something he pulls out casually lol.



> Nevertheless, Jinton being a "trump card" is completely irrelevant.


It being Mu's triumph card speaks to how casually Mu would pull out



> Not exactly. My analysis is based on Tsunade and the way she does battle, not others.


Sounds to me like a double standard.


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## Rocky (Apr 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So are you saying you believe Mu only has 3 Jutsu/abilities?



In _my_ opinion? No. We don't really know though, now do we. 



> So let me get this straight your "evidence"  Is that Mu used Jinton to counter Onoki's Jinton and when against 2 Kages; therefore it's something he pulls out casually lol.



I don't care what he uses it for, really. If the situation arises where he would need it, he could perform it, casually.



> It being Mu's triumph card speaks to how casually Mu would pull out.



How quickly he pulls it out is also irrelevant. Do you know what casual means?



> Sounds to me like a double standard.



Then you don't know what that means.


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Like all the other jutsu that would typical endanger someones life, if they weren't a regeneration monster.
> 
> 
> Jinton, one of (if not thee) best Jutsu Mu has, is casual now?
> ...



or the ''overwhelming'' alternatives to ''bypassing''


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> In _my_ opinion? No. We don't really know though, now do we.
> .


Why are your arguing something you don't even believe. 



> I don't care what he uses it for, really. If the situation arises where he would need it, he could perform it, casually


How do you know he can perform it casually. We know nothing of the chakra cost of Jinton.



> How quickly he pulls it out is also irrelevant. Do you know what casual means?


"done without much thought, effort, or concern"

"thought or concern", he did it when confronted by Onoki's Jinton or when trying to defeat 2 Kages. That doesn't reflect him pulling it out with little thought and little concern

"effort", we don't know the chakra costs of Jinton, but Jinton was never indicated to be something that someone can casually spam. Edo Mu couldn't even bring out Jinton once his split his power in half. 

So again I will ask how are you determining Jinton is something Mu uses casually?


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## Luftwaffles (Apr 21, 2014)

Kakashi.

Kakashi resorted to use his strongest available technique(Chidori/Raikiri) against Orochimaru, who shares the title Sannin with Jiraiya. Kakashi knows how strong Sennin Modo is.

He'll use his strongest available technique as per canon. Therefore, Kamui GG.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 21, 2014)

Kakashi would take this in most scenarios, I think he has the best fighting style to counter Jiraiya. Kakashi's shown he can utilize Kamui at any given moment, whether it was responding to Sasuke's Susano'o or Madara's counter attack against Minato. As a sennin, Jiraiya would be harder to deal with but as long as Kakashi employ's his clone feints and indirect method of fighting, he'll come out on top in most scuffles. The worst problem for him will be Frog Song, which I doubt he would utilize but assuming he does that's only way Kakashi's going to lose.


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