# Who can beat Pein Rikudo? (no knowledge)



## Triggenism (Jan 29, 2013)

Restrictions: resurrection of paths through gedo mazo.

Knowledge: none for both.

Mindset: IC

Location: pain crater

Distance: 80 m

Conditons: all six paths are active and deva can use his full powers.

So which shinobi do you think can beat the six paths of pain without prior knowledge?


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## raizen28 (Jan 29, 2013)

Minato
''GG"


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## Rage of Hate (Jan 29, 2013)

Itachi
"GG"


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## Triggenism (Jan 29, 2013)

who is GG?


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## Coldhands (Jan 29, 2013)

Naruto, Madara, Hashirama, Obito and Toon Deva


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## Rage of Hate (Jan 29, 2013)

Triggenism said:


> who is GG?



genjutsu gerr

just ask nagato, oro, kabuto, Deidara ,kakashi, sasuke 

they'll tell you all about it.


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## Bonly (Jan 29, 2013)

I'd say Kabuto could take on the 6 Paths of Pain and left unrestricted equals to an edo GG. I'll act as if edo is restricted.

With his increased healing factor via Karin and his ability to slowly turn into liquid via Suigetsu along with his healing jutsu makes it so it'll be hard for Pain to hurt him. With the ability to constantly draw in the force of nature via Jugo this means Kabuto can stay in SM as long as he wants once in it and with his perceptual abilities it'll be hard to hit Kabuto. Bam look at that double whammy,Pain will have problems hitting him as well as hurt him.

With Kabuto's chakra scalpel he can cut down any Path strength which would be helpful if he goes underground and pop up grabbing their legs as well as outright cut them in half. Kabuto also has Manda 2 which can pretty much deal with any summoning Pain has bar the dog.

Then there's his sound 5 abilities. He can use Kidomaru webs which will bind all the paths excluding Preta and Deav as one can blow it off while the other can absorb it. With Kimimaro's  Sawarabi no Mai he can pretty much take out all the Pain as there will be multiple bones as strong as steel. As we saw Deva barely reacted to Kakashi coming up from underground and stabbing him in the chest,but with quite a few of these coming from right under him its likely that he would get stabbed as well as the other paths and if any path is near Deva path im not sure he would use his full abilities as it would hurt the other paths(which this could likely work for Kabuto coming from underground with his CS). With Tayuya he can trap all of them in a genjutsu(as well as any summoning out) which would lead to an easy win.

Then there's two Sage Mode jutsu which could really mess up Pain. First there's Hakugeki which will blind pain as well as paralyze them,the only problem here is that it wouldn't last as long due to this being in an open space. And then there is Muki Tensei but again not really sure how it would work in this area .

I'd favor Kabuto to win more times then not.


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## Joakim3 (Jan 29, 2013)

*Definitively* 
EMS Madara
BM/RM Naruto
Obito
Nagato
SM Kabuto *with _Edo Tensei_
Hashirama *hype

*50/50*
EMS Sasuke
SM Kabuto *without _Edo Tensei_
Minato
Gaara *desert

I won't count Edo's


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## ImSerious (Jan 29, 2013)

Naruto, Minato, Obito, Nagato, Madara, Kabuto, Hashirama.


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## Csdabest (Jan 29, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Naruto, Minato, Obito, Nagato, Madara, Kabuto, Hashirama.



What this guy said + Sasuke.


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## iJutsu (Jan 29, 2013)

Just Obito and any genjutsu user. Since he knows the paths can't be revived, Deva will just one shot anyone he fights. No point in delaying anything. Obito since he can't be harmed. Pain also has no resistance to genjutsu.


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## Vice (Jan 29, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Naruto, Minato, Obito, Nagato, Madara, Kabuto, Hashirama.



Yeah, I can live with this.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 29, 2013)

*Decisive victory:*

Madara
Rinnegan Obito w/ GM and the Paths
BM Naruto
Hashirama
SM Kabuto (without Edo Tensei)
Killer B

*50/50:*

Sick Itachi
Minato
EMS Sasuke
Sandaime Raikage
Nidaime Tsuchikage
SM Jiraiya
Orochimaru


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 29, 2013)

Definitely : Current Naruto. Current Madara. Tobi(with Izanagi)


There are other characters who can beat Pain under different circumstances(different battlefield, knowledge distance etc) like : Itachi, Minato, Sasuke, Kirabi, Yondaime Raikage, Kabuto. But in a plain open field, with no knowledge or whatsoever, it is likely that Pain gets to outlast them, unless they get extremely lucky.


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## Veo (Jan 29, 2013)

Pain is just that powerful, particularly without knowledge.

Currently, the only ones who have the best chances to defeat him are:

- Naruto
- Madara
- Tobi
- Nagato (if that counts)

Then, there are a few characters that could win depending on other circumstances, like many of you pointed out, without knowledge:

- Gaara (desert)
- Minato
- Bee
- Kabuto
- Muu
- Oonoki
- Itachi 
- Jiraya
- Orochimaru

^These ones would lose more times than win.

That's all under the circumstances stated by OP, I guess.


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## Dr. White (Jan 29, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> *Definitively*
> Madara
> BM/RM Naruto
> Obito
> ...


This                                      .


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jan 29, 2013)

Triggenism said:


> who is GG?



It means "Good Game," but should mean "Trolling" when used around message boards.


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## egressmadara (Jan 29, 2013)

- BM Naruto
- Madara
- Obito


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## Ersa (Jan 29, 2013)

Using characters with feats.

Naruto, Minato, Obito, Nagato, Edo Madara, SM Kabuto, EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jan 29, 2013)

Jiraiya, as stated.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jan 29, 2013)

Obito, Kabuto, Nagato, and Madara are about the only ones that can beat Pain without knowledge. All the other people being mentioned are just...no


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## Joakim3 (Jan 29, 2013)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> Obito, Kabuto, Nagato, *BM/RM Naruto* and Madara are about the only ones that can beat Pain without knowledge. All the other people being mentioned are just...no



Fixed for accuracy


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## Rocky (Jan 29, 2013)

He did mention Kabuto. ^


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## Joakim3 (Jan 29, 2013)

Rocky915 said:


> He did mention Kabuto. ^



Oh .....well shit


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jan 29, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Fixed for accuracy



Without Knowledge?? I was debating on Naruto but judging his encounter with mobile Nagato I'm not all that certain that he could...call it a hunch


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## Joakim3 (Jan 30, 2013)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> Without Knowledge?? I was debating on Naruto but judging his encounter with mobile Nagato I'm not all that certain that he could...call it a hunch



RM Naruto that fought against Edo Nagato is so far away from the current BM Naruto one lacks a description for it using words

Current BM Naruto could beat Nagato himself and some decent level kage ninja .....at the same time, he's become that damn powerful now


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## Bonly (Jan 30, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 



As of last chapter, Orochimaru


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## Rage of Hate (Jan 30, 2013)

Bonly said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> As of last chapter, Orochimaru



as of the manga Itachi > Oro :ho


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## Bonly (Jan 30, 2013)

Rage of Hate said:


> as of the manga Itachi > Oro :ho



Indeed Our King Itachi is just that great


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## Rage of Hate (Jan 30, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Indeed Our King Itachi is just that great



all hail the king


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jan 31, 2013)

Rage of Hate said:


> as of the manga Itachi > Oro :ho





Bonly said:


> Indeed Our King Itachi is just that great





Rage of Hate said:


> all hail the king



Damn straight


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## Dr. White (Jan 31, 2013)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> Damn straight



Hell yeah, other fans are simply blinded by the perceptive illusion they call reality. Run..Cling..to your Itachi hatred... Dat Savior Itachi.


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## Rage of Hate (Feb 1, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Hell yeah, other fans are simply blinded by the perceptive illusion they call reality. Run..Cling..to your Itachi hatred... Dat Savior Itachi.



the king warned us about this.

"People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts? their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?"


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## Larcher (Mar 30, 2013)

Minato,Naruto, Current Obito, Madara,, and Hashirama


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## Stermor (Mar 30, 2013)

iJutsu said:


> Just Obito and any genjutsu user. Since he knows the paths can't be revived, Deva will just one shot anyone he fights. No point in delaying anything. Obito since he can't be harmed. Pain also has no resistance to genjutsu.



pain has the most powerful mental shields inoichi(who was doing this when the uchiha were still alive) has ever seen.. i think we can be save to asume unless we are using itachi's most powerful genjutsu's.. he is going to no sell them easily.. 

if genjutsu even works on pain body's.. 

anyway i don't think sasuke/itachi have a chance.. in sasuke's case his hole arsenal is just lol preta.. itachi should have problems dealing with the summons and quantity. he needs high level power for it but low stamina it is going to cost him.

anyway hashi obito madara and bm naruto shouldn't have to much problems taking him out..


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## Jad (Mar 30, 2013)

I would say Itachi beats Pain without knowledge via Tsyukomi. But I remembered he didn't bother doing so against the Rinnegan summons. Where I would have thought he could one shot them all because of shared vision, but he went through the task of blinding them with Kunai's.

Preta path alone is hell for Itachi. He'd have to put him down through Taijutsu, and he just doesn't have the chance to do so. I mean each time Itachi uses Amaterasu on a summon, or a person, Preta path can save them or himself by just absorbing it. And for Itachi pre-death, Amaterasu alone would riddle his body.

Plus Tsyukomi would be a waste on the Pains because they don't feel any mental damage since they are technically dead. If I am reading that correctly. So there alone a good portion of Itachi's arsenal is gone.


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## Turrin (Mar 30, 2013)

Definitely:
Rikudo
Hashirama
Madara
Naruto

*Stand a Decent Chance* 
Kabuto
Minato
Nagato
Edo Itachi
Kushina (hype/release of Kyuubi)
Mito (hype/release of Kyuubi)
Sasuke
Gin + Kin - But that might be breaking the rules, since thats 2 shinobi at once, but I tend to count them together since they fighting style relies so heavily on Team play
Prime Hanzo - according to Pain himself Hanzo lost due to become rusty, but this is the most dubious one.


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## Krippy (Mar 30, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Using characters with feats.
> 
> Hashimara, Naruto, Minato, Obito, Nagato, Edo Madara, SM Kabuto, EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi.



this                .


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## joshhookway (Mar 30, 2013)

Kabuto and his edo army


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## blk (Mar 30, 2013)

*Definitely:*

- Madara.

- Hashirama.

- Naruto.

- Obito.

- Nagato.

- Killer Bee.

- SM Kabuto.

- Muu (i'm not sure how the Paths are supposed to kill someone that they can't see and that has much more range than them).


*Stand a chance, but would lose most often than not:*

- Any Jinchuuriki aside from Bee and Naruto (if they could do the Continuous Bijuudama, i would put them up).

- Sasuke.

- Itachi.

- Minato.

- The third Raikage.

- Danzo.

- A.

- Second Mizukage.

- Onoki.


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## Luftwaffles (Mar 30, 2013)

Anyone think Trollkage when mist is up and Joki Boi can win??


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## Stermor (Mar 30, 2013)

blk said:


> *Definitely:*
> 
> - Madara.
> 
> ...



on the muu case.. it is pretty easy.. preta covers jintons.. so muu is not really going to hurt pain.. it is just like sasuke or others.. there arsenal will work if you consider pain doing nothing.. but pain is perfectly capable of just going lol preta on stuff like jinton.. 

also second mizukage's clam is destroyed by a larger shinra tensei.. and then joki boi is just absorbed


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## Thor (Mar 30, 2013)

Lol Kabuto?? Didn't Itachi own him.


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## Stermor (Mar 30, 2013)

Thor said:


> Lol Kabuto?? Didn't Itachi own him.



ye but what happens when kabuto summons all his edo tensei's.. itachi is getting crapped on in that case.. 

in this thread they are talking about a kabuto who can summon all his edo's if he so desires.. and they would fight for him against pain.. to great effect..


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## u think u know me (Mar 30, 2013)

> WHO CAN BEAT PEIN RIKUDO?



akamaru


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## Kai (Mar 30, 2013)

blk said:


> - Muu (i'm not sure how the Paths are supposed to kill someone that they can't see and that has much more range than them).


Pain would use his rain jutsu to detect Muu in that case.


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 30, 2013)

Madara, hashirama, naruto, obito, kabuto

Thats about it however there could be more depending on the route kishi takes such as minato and tobitama


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## Jizznificent (Mar 30, 2013)

who can beat rikudou pain (IC) without knowledge of their jutsu?

*definitely (or best pain most of the time):*
EMS/rinnegan madara
hashirama
BM naruto
nagato
new kabuto  
rinnegan obito
konohamaru 

*stands a (very slim) chance beating him:*
minato
RM naruto
SM naruto
itachi
jiraiya
3rd raikage and maybe Ay
muu and maybe oonoki
2nd mizukage
killer bee
obito 
danzo
sasuke


mentioning  rikudou sennin and toon deva isn't even necessary . i need to see more of current orochimaru and tobirama, to see where they  would fit on these lists.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 30, 2013)

Aside from the Rinnegan users we have, no-one. Hashirama with future feats/abilities may stand a chance. 
Kabuto with Edo Tensei does stand a chance. Though if you exclude Madara, Muu and Nagato then the chances dwindle. Bearing in mind Nagato can choose to make several CT, but only makes one as it usually suffices. Kabuto on his own probably wouldn't do well either.

This is all assuming no knowledge.

The Rinnegan users stand the best chance because they know their eyes and they'll know the foe shares those same eyes. Kabuto, may or may not, if he lacks knowledge of the Rinnegan then he will probably not do well. But if he knows Nagato/Madara's Rinnegan powers then he will stand a good chance.

However all the named people have the potential to still die. Unless they take out Pain, like obliterate the bodies to ensure they are unusable. They will die to Pain; if they think he's dead and leave (and relax) it is over. Imagine if Demon Realm chose to aim a missile at Jiraiya or stab him in the heart/head while Jiraiya walked away.


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## RBL (Mar 31, 2013)

Would Be
BM Naruto
Hashirama
SM Kabuto
Madara
Obito
Nagato

Might Be
Itachi
Gai
Minato
Orochimaru
EMS sasuke


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## IchLiebe (Mar 31, 2013)

Rage of Hate said:


> genjutsu gerr
> 
> just ask nagato, oro, kabuto, Deidara ,kakashi, sasuke
> 
> they'll tell you all about it.



Are you saying that Itachi caught Nagato in a genjutsu... Lol

Itachi stands no chance against Pain.

Totsuka- Dead bodies without souls, no sealing will activate.
Amaterasu- ST, BT(pull the flames away from someone else into Preta), Preta.
Genjutsu- Useless, these are puppets and even so shared vision between the summons and paths means that Nagato will see 1 path is in the genjutsu and use the other paths as its vision so that Nagato can keep controlling it. Say if Itachi tsuk Preta, well Preta can still move just fine as Itachis genjutsu doesn't restrict movement and the only thing it changes is the enviroment of the victim.

Asura, Preta and Deva can solo Itachi, add the other 3 and enter the rape van.


Ones who can beat him-Muu, Edo Madara(i don't EMS Madara could), 

Not to mentino that a win is destroying all paths so they are unusable. So you must obliterate them as Asura showed.

I don't see really anyone else beating the paths, Im iffy about Madara as it could go 5050, They are to strong and overwhelms opponets with the sheer amount of enemies coming from different directions. 

With an 80m distance this is my setup for pain,

very back, Naraka, then animal, then Preta. then Deva, Human, and Asura.

Deva, Human and Asura are the offensive players while the other 3 are defensive with Animals summonings supporting all.

Human goes in for CQC,  gets destroyed, Deva pulls, Asura lauches missiles, Animal summons Human, Naraka revives Human, Preta protects Naraka. Now rinse and repeat with any path other than the defensive players to take the offensive. No matter what Animal can summon Naraka and any other path to its location, if hidden inside chameleon its better. Than Naraka can revive any path that isn't obliterated, and Preta eats all incoming attack to Animal and Naraka with Summons putting up an offense to keep the enemy busy.


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## IchLiebe (Mar 31, 2013)

Thor said:


> Lol Kabuto?? Didn't Itachi and Sasuke barely manage to stop Kabuto(couldn't kill him).


There I fixed it for you.


Kabuto shit on Itachi worse than America shitted on the Iraqis when they invaded kuwait.


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## raizen28 (Mar 31, 2013)

lmao EMS Sasuke and Itachi defeating Pain


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 31, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> Anyone think Trollkage when mist is up and Joki Boi can win??



The rain would find the clam if he can't see him with the rinnegan.  Though the Rinnegan gets fooled by smoke bombs, so I'd go with rain.

I agree with the Hashirama, BM/RM Naruto, Obito, Madara, and Kabuto with an edo army for sure.  

SM Jiraiya and Minato could also do it with extreme difficulty.  Gaara if he lives long enough to grind a desert maybe.  They're the only ones who can live long enough and are smart enough to figure him out and win.

Knowledge is pretty much the most important thing when fighting Pain, and most ninja are screwed without it.


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## joshhookway (Mar 31, 2013)

Definitely Crush Pein:
Kabuto with Edo Army or Just SM
Hashirama with Guanyin Jutsu
Madara with Perfect Susanoo
Naruto with multiple Bijuudama
Tobirama with S/T Sword Slashes
Healthy Itachi with Susanoo
MS Sasuke with Amaterasu orb
Current kakashi with Kamui
Obito with Kamui
Orochimaru with Edo Tensei
Minato with FTG and relexes
Killer Bee with 8 Tail Whirlwind


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## blk (Mar 31, 2013)

Stermor said:


> on the muu case.. it is pretty easy.. preta covers jintons.. so muu is not really going to hurt pain.. it is just like sasuke or others.. there arsenal will work if you consider pain doing nothing.. but pain is perfectly capable of just going lol preta on stuff like jinton..
> 
> also second mizukage's clam is destroyed by a larger shinra tensei.. and then joki boi is just absorbed



If this was Nagato, i would agree, but Pain is different since he has his powers divided into six bodies.
Preta Path can stay only at one place at a time, therefore there is the chance to hit the other Paths with ninjutsu.



Kai said:


> Pain would use his rain jutsu to detect Muu in that case.



I didn't remember about this, good point.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Aside from the Rinnegan users we have, no-one. Hashirama with future feats/abilities may stand a chance.
> Kabuto with Edo Tensei does stand a chance. Though if you exclude Madara, Muu and Nagato then the chances dwindle. Bearing in mind Nagato can choose to make several CT, but only makes one as it usually suffices. Kabuto on his own probably wouldn't do well either.



What? Kabuto would obliterate Pain with Edo Tensei even if he doesn't have Madara, Muu and Nagato.

Also, Madara, Hashirama, Naruto and Killer Bee are too much for Pain, if they don't play around.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 31, 2013)

blk said:


> What? Kabuto would obliterate Pain with Edo Tensei even if he doesn't have Madara, Muu and Nagato.



How does he do this with no knowledge?



> Also, Madara, Hashirama, Naruto and Killer Bee are too much for Pain, if they don't play around.



Killer Bee evidently isn't. Naruto also evidently isn't. 

Hashirama I'll give the benefit of the doubt, but not with what we're working with right now. Madara with the Rinnegan use because he knows what to expect; without, no.

Emphasis on lack of knowledge. Even if they think they kill Pain, they'll be in for a rude awakening.


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## blk (Mar 31, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How does he do this with no knowledge?



His Edo army outnumbers Pain too much, knowledge is not necessary when the power difference is so enormous.



> Killer Bee evidently isn't. Naruto also evidently isn't.
> 
> Hashirama I'll give the benefit of the doubt, but not with what we're working with right now. Madara with the Rinnegan use because he knows what to expect; without, no.
> 
> Emphasis on lack of knowledge. Even if they think they kill Pain, they'll be in for a rude awakening.



What is so evident? Did Pain ever beat BM Naruto or Killer Bee?

Hashirama destroys Pain easily: Preta Path isn't omnipresent and the Mokuton will hit from every direction.

Madara if is arrogant may lose, but otherwise the Paths have absolutely nothing for take down Perfect Susano'o.

Pain has no knowledge as well, don't pretend that the opposition will play around while the Paths go all out knowing exactly what to do.
Further, everyone of these characters has attacks that can obliterate all the Paths at once, i don't see how they'll be in for a "rude awakening".

Also, i forgot to include Obito, he has pretty good chances too.


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## Kind of a big deal (Mar 31, 2013)

It was fairly heavily implied by Pain that Prime Hanzou should be able to win. Of course, Pain has also said the same about Jiraiya so yeah.


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## blk (Mar 31, 2013)

Kind of a big deal said:


> It was fairly heavily implied by Pain that Prime Hanzou should be able to win. Of course, Pain has also said the same about Jiraiya so yeah.



Pain said that _with knowledge_, Jiraya could have defeat him.
However, since the power difference is rather evident, i believe that a more accurate interpretation of that statement is that if Jiraya knew that an almost defenseless and immobile Nagato was controlling the Paths from a big tower, he could have killed Nagato directly.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 31, 2013)

Thor said:


> Lol Kabuto?? Didn't Itachi own him.


...when did Itachi ever own Kabuto? If 'own' you mean Kabuto owned Itachi, which happened twice over the fight and Itachi only 'survived' due to being an Edo Tensei as well as Sasuke's help, then yes.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 31, 2013)

blk said:


> His Edo army outnumbers Pain too much, knowledge is not necessary when the power difference is so enormous.



Pain will adapt to the numbers by keeping distance. Further with lack of knowledge, Pain can play dead and prosper. 



> What is so evident? Did Pain ever beat BM Naruto or Killer Bee?



Bee couldn't do much to a single Rinnegan user with shared vision. BM Naruto is just one big absorbent being. Both also prone to fall for the "I killed him" act.



> Hashirama destroys Pain easily: Preta Path isn't omnipresent and the Mokuton will hit from every direction.



Easily is pushing it. Mokuton will be gone the moment it is absorbed, the chakra will be taken towards the Preta Path. Leaving Hashirama open for the rest. Yes with what we have now, without Mokuton he has SM Taijutsu, and unless you have the frog style, we know how that will go down. 



> Madara if is arrogant may lose, but otherwise the Paths have absolutely nothing for take down Perfect Susano'o.



Absorbing is a wonderful tool because it alone forces the foes into CQC. Perfect Susanoo is also something that can be absorbed. Pain is more than capable of coming up with a strategy to achieve this.



> Pain has no knowledge as well, don't pretend that the opposition will play around while the Paths go all out knowing exactly what to do.
> Further, everyone of these characters has attacks that can obliterate all the Paths at once, i don't see how they'll be in for a "rude awakening".



Only the others can be figured out rather easily; all that is needed is to know if they rely on Ninjutsu. Which is what all the names you brought against my point are guilty of. 
You nullify that and you're forced to do what Jiraiya did, run away. Or you are forced to do what Madara said, CQC but that is silly with six foes.

Full obliteration will only be the first thing in mind when you know Pain will get up. Assuming that is what they'll go for off the bat (unless their arsenal relies on that) is granting them knowledge they do not have.



> Also, i forgot to include Obito, he has pretty good chances too.



That is probably the only shinobi you mentioned that actually has good chances. Especially as his fighting style involves absorbing people into his dimension. Though that can backfire if he absorbs some Paths and leaves some out; intangibility won't be so safe.


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## blk (Mar 31, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Pain will adapt to the numbers by keeping distance. Further with lack of knowledge, Pain can play dead and prosper.



How keeping distance will render Pain able to deal with _tens_ of immortal fighters, with each of them having his specific arsenal?
Will they even give to Pain the chance to increase the distance?

Edo Itachi alone can give to Pain a nightmare of a fight, i can't image how Pain is supposed to handle tens of S class shinobi in more.



> Bee couldn't do much to a single Rinnegan user with shared vision. BM Naruto is just one big absorbent being. Both also prone to fall for the "I killed him" act.



The Rinnegan user that you are referring to, is like a whole tier above Pain.

Further, the Bijuu mode renders both Killer Bee and Naruto pratically immune to everything aside from CST (which i don't think that would defeat them).
The moment they rapid fire their Bijuudama, the match is over (since every Path except Preta will be gone), the only chance that Pain has is to defeat them before.



> Easily is pushing it. Mokuton will be gone the moment it is absorbed, the chakra will be taken towards the Preta Path. Leaving Hashirama open for the rest. Yes with what we have now, without Mokuton he has SM Taijutsu, and unless you have the frog style, we know how that will go down.



Hashirama can continuosly make Mokuton, he will never be defenseless.
Also, again, Preta Path isn't omnipresent, while Hashirama will hit the Paths with Mokuton from every direction (even from under their feet); the only Mokuton that will be absorbed is the one that will be directed at Preta Path, but not the rest.




> Absorbing is a wonderful tool because it alone forces the foes into CQC. Perfect Susanoo is also something that can be absorbed. Pain is more than capable of coming up with a strategy to achieve this.



Assuming that Preta Path will ever come close to Perfect Susano'o, and not be disintegrated by its slashes.



> Only the others can be figured out rather easily; all that is needed is to know if they rely on Ninjutsu. Which is what all the names you brought against my point are guilty of.
> You nullify that and you're forced to do what Jiraiya did, run away. Or you are forced to do what Madara said, CQC but that is silly with six foes.



The problem is that most of their ninjutsu has enough range for hit every Path at once, while only two of them can counter these.



> Full obliteration will only be the first thing in mind when you know Pain will get up. Assuming that is what they'll go for off the bat (unless their arsenal relies on that) is granting them knowledge they do not have.



Why? Obviously, after seeing how small ninjutsu are easily repelled or absorbed, most of the fighter that i mentioned would use something with a greater scale in order to at least defeat the other Paths.



> That is probably the only shinobi you mentioned that actually has good chances. Especially as his fighting style involves absorbing people into his dimension. Though that can backfire if he absorbs some Paths and leaves some out; intangibility won't be so safe.



Yes, however Izanagi should be enough for end the match.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Apr 1, 2013)

Thor said:


> Lol Kabuto?? Didn't Itachi own him.



200% EDO Itachi? No, Itachi needed serious help from Sasuke and some dumb luck.



blk said:


> Pain said that _with knowledge_, Jiraya could have defeat him.
> However, since the power difference is rather evident, i believe that a  more accurate interpretation of that statement is that if Jiraya knew  that an almost defenseless and immobile Nagato was controlling the Paths  from a big tower, he could have killed Nagato directly.



Jiraiya is one of the only characters, if not the only character, that could had even figured out Pein's secret... and did, just too late. 

Nagato is FAR from defenseless. He has more powerful versions of all of Pein's abilities, all 5 elements, and can use Gedo Mazo with the power of 7 Bijuus stored within it... chakra which he could use to restore himself. Nagato thought that he could still beat SM Naruto without Pein and was doing well against KCM Naruto.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 1, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> 200% EDO Itachi? No, Itachi needed serious help from Sasuke and some dumb luck.



I argue against Itachi when he's paired against Kabuto. However 200% *is* pushing it. Though I agree that the help Sasuke provided is overlooked by a lot, you are wrong with saying "dumb luck". 
Even though Sasuke provided help, Itachi's level was high enough to make hold his own; the help just ensured he wouldn't be kicked out several times.



blk said:


> How keeping distance will render Pain able to deal with _tens_ of immortal fighters, with each of them having his specific arsenal?
> Will they even give to Pain the chance to increase the distance?
> 
> Edo Itachi alone can give to Pain a nightmare of a fight, i can't image how Pain is supposed to handle tens of S class shinobi in more.



Keeping distance will CT on Pain's end. Or keeping distance will really be for naught as to get anywhere with a Rinnegan user, you have to go up close.
Pain has powers that enable him to achieve this; if he wants to keep a distance he can push the rest of the foes away.

Edo Itachi alone is no less of a threat than normal Itachi.



> The Rinnegan user that you are referring to, is like a whole tier above Pain.
> 
> Further, the Bijuu mode renders both Killer Bee and Naruto pratically immune to everything aside from CST (which i don't think that would defeat them).
> The moment they rapid fire their Bijuudama, the match is over (since every Path except Preta will be gone), the only chance that Pain has is to defeat them before.



Of course, but his jutsu and tactics were the same. It just illustrated how effective shared vision could be, even that far in the manga. Bee had a hard time landing a hit against this attribute one fight later.

That really isn't what happened the last time. A well timed Shinra Tensei could do the job of deflecting the attacks and hitting the foes. If Preta so much as goes near one, it is over. 

Hashirama can continuosly make Mokuton, he will never be defenseless.


> Also, again, Preta Path isn't omnipresent, while Hashirama will hit the Paths with Mokuton from every direction (even from under their feet); the only Mokuton that will be absorbed is the one that will be directed at Preta Path, but not the rest.



Preta Path isn't omnipresent, but there is a reason why despite knowing that the best clone user we know still opted not to use clones against this Pain. 

All the Mokuton are connected, if one gets absorbed, so will the rest. Furthermore when there is one body that nullifies Ninjutsu, Hashirama isn't going to be foolish and try to use Ninjutsu again and again; he'll try what Jiraiya did. 
Alternative means.



> Assuming that Preta Path will ever come close to Perfect Susano'o, and not be disintegrated by its slashes.



Injured Gokage were able not to be caught by its slashes, Pain will have no problem. 



> The problem is that most of their ninjutsu has enough range for hit every Path at once, while only two of them can counter these.



However every Path has shown very decent speed and coordination with one another. They'll know the proper stance to take, more times than not the Preta Path will suffice; if not the Animal or God Paths could provide assistance.



> Why? Obviously, after seeing how small ninjutsu are easily repelled or absorbed, most of the fighter that i mentioned would use something with a greater scale in order to at least defeat the other Paths.



Seeing jutsu easily repelled or absorbed won't make them do that. That's like saying they saw a small Katon get absorbed/repelled so therefore they will use a bigger one. Like Jiraiya they will resort to alternative means because if a smaller jutsu gets easily dealt with then they're going to automatically realise that using bigger jutsu is going to be a waste of time.



> Yes, however Izanagi should be enough for end the match.



Izanagi would worsen things. He'd lose an eye, but still not know what the hell happened: why the bodies are still fighting and not going down. 

Though to use Izanagi, that assumes knowledge too seeing as Obito would need to feel that he has no choice; as he did with Konan. As per the OP, Obito doesn't know Pain has jutsu that will force Izanagi.


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## blk (Apr 1, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Jiraiya is one of the only characters, if not the only character, that could had even figured out Pein's secret... and did, just too late.
> 
> Nagato is FAR from defenseless. He has more powerful versions of all of Pein's abilities, all 5 elements, and can use Gedo Mazo with the power of 7 Bijuus stored within it... chakra which he could use to restore himself. Nagato thought that he could still beat SM Naruto without Pein and was doing well against KCM Naruto.



So? He clearly doesn't stand a chance without knowledge against the six Paths all togheter.

The Nagato that controlled Pain was stuck in a strange machine that he probably needed for control the Paths and/or for move.
He couldn't even readily use his arms, it is doubtful if he could have survived to an assault from Jiraiya.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Keeping distance will CT on Pain's end. Or keeping distance will really be for naught as to get anywhere with a Rinnegan user, you have to go up close.
> Pain has powers that enable him to achieve this; if he wants to keep a distance he can push the rest of the foes away.
> 
> Edo Itachi alone is no less of a threat than normal Itachi.



CT will be destroyed easily, it is not enough.

With a big ST, he may push away most of the Edos, but that's it.

Still, the Edo army is immortal, more powerful, more numerous, more versatile and more hax than Pain; don't see how he can possibly win.




> Of course, but his jutsu and tactics were the same. It just illustrated how effective shared vision could be, even that far in the manga. Bee had a hard time landing a hit against this attribute one fight later.
> 
> That really isn't what happened the last time. A well timed Shinra Tensei could do the job of deflecting the attacks and hitting the foes. If Preta so much as goes near one, it is over.



Nagato has the huge advantage to possess all the powers within his body, thus without being defenseless against certain things.

What happened the last time? I don't remember Pain fighting with the Hachibi or the full Kyuubi.
A Shinra Tensei can stop the attacks but then there is the 5 seconds interval; if they exploit it, Pain will likely go down against timed attacks.




> Preta Path isn't omnipresent, but there is a reason why despite knowing that the best clone user we know still opted not to use clones against this Pain.
> 
> All the Mokuton are connected, if one gets absorbed, so will the rest. Furthermore when there is one body that nullifies Ninjutsu, Hashirama isn't going to be foolish and try to use Ninjutsu again and again; he'll try what Jiraiya did.
> Alternative means.



What? Hashirama can create Mokuton from different places in the ground, it is in no way connected.
Preta Path will absorb only the Mokuton that it aimed at him, not the rest.

And now that i think about it, Bringer of Darkness can basically end the match.



> Injured Gokage were able not to be caught by its slashes, Pain will have no problem.



They never avoided the slash, it was Madara that didn't hit them purposely (if you check the page, you'll see that Madara hit the meteors which where next to him, while the Gokage was foward).



> However every Path has shown very decent speed and coordination with one another. They'll know the proper stance to take, more times than not the Preta Path will suffice; if not the Animal or God Paths could provide assistance.



Coordination and speed won't serve to anything against the Bijuudama spam, the Mokuton and the slashes of Perfect Susano'o.



> Seeing jutsu easily repelled or absorbed won't make them do that. That's like saying they saw a small Katon get absorbed/repelled so therefore they will use a bigger one. Like Jiraiya they will resort to alternative means because if a smaller jutsu gets easily dealt with then they're going to automatically realise that using bigger jutsu is going to be a waste of time.



If they can kill every Path aside from Preta and maybe Deva with a bigger justu, why should they not do it?



> Izanagi would worsen things. He'd lose an eye, but still not know what the hell happened: why the bodies are still fighting and not going down.
> 
> Though to use Izanagi, that assumes knowledge too seeing as Obito would need to feel that he has no choice; as he did with Konan. As per the OP, Obito doesn't know Pain has jutsu that will force Izanagi.



The eye doesn't lose the light until the effect of Izanagi is over, and Obito's Izanagi last five minutes.
But more importantly, what's the problem with losing an eye? The one that is usefull is just his Kamui MS, as long as he doesn't sacrifice it, he will be fine.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 1, 2013)

blk said:


> CT will be destroyed easily, it is not enough.
> 
> With a big ST, he may push away most of the Edos, but that's it.
> 
> Still, the Edo army is immortal, more powerful, more numerous, more versatile and more hax than Pain; don't see how he can possibly win.



If Kabuto will have Madara, Nagato or Muu, it can be destroyed easily. Without them, we've nothing to think so.

A push to build distance that could help a lot could help. Especially if that is Pain's goal.

Probably sticking to his strength, combination attacks. Though with the adding other Rinnegan users and wildcards like Muu render that useless. 
Pain would make use of whatever setting is around to gain the advantage; that is why 6 weaker Bijuu were able to trump the 2 stronger ones.

Though I doubt Kabuto would even summon spam Edo Tensei considering his knowledge.



> Nagato has the huge advantage to possess all the powers within his body, thus without being defenseless against certain things.
> 
> What happened the last time? I don't remember Pain fighting with the Hachibi or the full Kyuubi.
> A Shinra Tensei can stop the attacks but then there is the 5 seconds interval; if they exploit it, Pain will likely go down against timed attacks.



Nagato can be more powerful and a bit faster than Pain, but that is really all Nagato has over Pain. As a Rinnegan user, not his mass jutsu quantity.
Nagato simply made use of what Pain used, combination attacks utilising shared vision; no different to what Pain is going to do.

He fought those able to subjugate their power. The Kyuubi's power was rendered useless because of the Preta Path, same deal with the Hachibi's power hence Bee resorted to Taijutsu. Though with six foes, Taijutsu won't be considered as practical,

"If they can exploit it"; if the can figure it out. After Jiraiya people were only able to challenge Pain because they knew of his powers; Kakashi had to die to just figure out God Realm. 

You're presupposing knowledge for Pain's opponents again, however practically when you're fighting all six knowing nothing, you're not going to have time to figure out. You'll want to survive. Timed attacks would not work against Pain because Pain will be making use of those type of combination attacks to ensure the group don't get separated.




> What? Hashirama can create Mokuton from different places in the ground, it is in no way connected.
> Preta Path will absorb only the Mokuton that it aimed at him, not the rest.
> 
> And now that i think about it, Bringer of Darkness can basically end the match.



That wouldn't work because Pain sticks together and resorts to combination attacks to ensure that no-one gets separated. Preta Path would be a huge help, and it makes more sense to assume they're connected because consistently in this manga, Mokuton has always started from a point very close to the user; it doesn't branch erratically.

Indeed, Genjutsu will be used as Ninjutsu and Taijutsu won't work, then he gets the Jiraiya treatment. Remember no-knowledge: he would think he killed them.



> They never avoided the slash, it was Madara that didn't hit them purposely (if you check the page, you'll see that Madara hit the meteors which where next to him, while the Gokage was foward).



Looking at it, you're right. Though it also forced me to noticed something else. The condition of the Kage he was going to slash, given Pain's unique powers and combination they're not likely going to be reduced to such a state; being dead they can't be. 
So it is now even less likely that those slashes will do much, looking at an enhanced Perfect Susanoo, two slashes were easily dodged by someone who lacked perfect eyes. So Pain's combination attacks and powers will help him survive there. 

Especially when Madara will be split between thinking of killing and wondering just how on earth Pain is timing his attacks so well; he won't have the luxury of a spare observer like Fukasaku.



> Coordination and speed won't serve to anything against the Bijuudama spam, the Mokuton and the slashes of Perfect Susano'o.



Countless times Pain and the Rinnegan has showed us that shared vision helps the user out of almost any jam. You would've likely included FRS in that list had Pain not done something about it in the past, for example. However Nagato has managed to react to the moves of speedsters like Naruto and Bee due to the shared vision; Pain was able to react to the many moves of Konoha, Jiraiya and Naruto due to shared vision; even Pain once more managed to do something about Bee's swordsmen ship and KCM Naruto.

The point: no matter the attack, shared vision will allow for the timing. With Pain's style, he'll stick together too. He sees giant masses of chakra (Mokuton/Bijuu Dama) they will be absorbed; there will be eyes around to scout for other inconveniences. For example: unconnected Mokuton if that is possible.

Perfect Susanoo, slashes can be avoided and a direct sword hit will risk the entire construct being absorbed. Though Perfect Susanoo may force creativity on Pain's end: maybe a combination of the dog who will keep multiplying with each hit alongside the lobster whose Suiton, as per se the databook, could make the Perfect Susanoo slip. 



> If they can kill every Path aside from Preta and maybe Deva with a bigger justu, why should they not do it?



If they can, key word is 'if'. Though that is a very silly idea a shinobi can think of "small doesn't work, lets go more". That contradicts everything any shinobi who fought Pain/Rinnegan has concluded. If small _chakra_ jutsu didn't work, logical shinobi will automatically realise that the same will happen to larger _chakra_ jutsu. 
Killer Bee noticed this for example, notice how he didn't use a chakra sword on Nagato. In more than two instances, due to the Preta Path, it has been concluded CQC is the only way. But with Pain the numbers discourage that.

It it really a double edged sword here: use chakra and increase Pain's energy and decrease yours. Or come close and risk being outnumbered. All while trying to get just what Pain is doing and how he is doing it. To end it all, even if you think you killed him, you wouldn't know that you didn't.



> The eye doesn't lose the light until the effect of Izanagi is over, and Obito's Izanagi last five minutes.
> But more importantly, what's the problem with losing an eye? The one that is usefull is just his Kamui MS, as long as he doesn't sacrifice it, he will be fine.



Izanagi won't grant him knowledge, he'll still be tasked with trying to figure Pain out all over again. Furthermore I'm more curious as to how Obito would _know_ that Izanagi is required.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Apr 1, 2013)

blk said:


> So? He clearly doesn't stand a chance without knowledge against the six Paths all togheter.
> 
> The Nagato that controlled Pain was stuck in a strange machine that he probably needed for control the Paths and/or for move.
> He couldn't even readily use his arms, it is doubtful if he could have survived to an assault from Jiraiya.



Based on what? Based on Nagato's opinion, he would had lost. 

A strange machine that had robotic legs. Nagato controlled Pein with the chakra receivers that were sticking out of his back. The Nagato in the wheelchair could use his arms as easily as Edo Nagato could, since that Nagato was resurrected in the same condition; he was even quick enough to use Shinra Tensei to protect Itachi from one of Bee's attacks. 

How would he not survive an assault? Hungry Ghost absorbs Jiraiya's ninjutsu assaults, he has Deva's Shinra Tensei/Chou Shinra Tensei to repel physical attacks, can use Asura's transformations for additional arms/faces and missiles/lasers/blades, has Animal's wide array of summons including cerberus, and has Gedo Mazo that made short work of an army and giant butterfly Chouji. That's what Jiraiya was up against, no matter how you try to downplay it, and he believed that Jiraiya could had won.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 1, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Based on what? Based on Nagato's opinion, he would had lost.



Based on Nagato's opinion if it wasn't for Pain's secret, he would have lost in the given situation. You're misunderstanding.

Nagato in all translations says it was due to the secret. Fukasaku makes a huge deal about Pain not knowing Jiraiya is a good Genjutsu user. This is something Pain remarks on twice, once before and after Jiraiya's response: a mini-theme of being prepared for anything; not underestimating your foe; no matter what.

The secret is Nagato, if Jiraiya knew Nagato existed he would've used the Genjutsu on Nagato underestimating his Genjutsu power and he would have won. Emphasis was put onto that many chapters later when Pain said he already knew the Genjutsu power that Pa planned to use on him.

In short: nothing at all suggests Nagato, or Pain, would actually lose to Jiraiya in any condition. *Except* one where Nagato still underrates Jiraiya's Genjutsu power and where Jiraiya knows Nagato is.

You can say Pain's comment means Jiraiya could win, it just means you would be wrong. Wrong because that assumption (Jiraiya>Pain based on the comment) doesn't factor in the heavy emphasis on Pain's perception on his expectation of the Genjutsu power and the implications that would have if the secret wasn't concealed.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Apr 1, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Based on Nagato's opinion if it wasn't for Pain's secret, he would have lost in the given situation. You're misunderstanding.
> 
> Nagato in all translations says it was due to the secret. Fukasaku makes a huge deal about Pain not knowing Jiraiya is a good Genjutsu user. This is something Pain remarks on twice, once before and after Jiraiya's response: a mini-theme of being prepared for anything; not underestimating your foe; no matter what.
> 
> ...



Pein was using his knowledge of Jiraiya against him, it was stated that Pein had an understanding of Jiraiya's jutsus and weaknesses which made it a harder fight, especially since Jiraiya knew almost nothing about Pein. Fukasaku wanted to use Pein's knowledge of Jiraiya against him, that was the point of using the genjutsu. 

How is one thing fair and the other isn't? "If Nagato knew about the genjutsu", well "if Jiraiya knew about Nagato."

Nagato said Jiraiya would had won, the only stipulation was knowing of Nagato (a.k.a. the real Pein). It's cut and dry.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 1, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Pein was using his knowledge of Jiraiya against him, it was stated that Pein had an understanding of Jiraiya's jutsus and weaknesses which made it a harder fight, especially since Jiraiya knew almost nothing about Pein. *Fukasaku wanted to use Pein's knowledge of Jiraiya against him, that was the point of using the genjutsu*.



No-one said Pain's knowledge on Jiraiya's jutsu made it hard to fight Pain. From what we saw Pain's coordination made it hard to fight him, particularly because one body nullified Ninjutsu, as per se Madara, made Taijutsu an option. Jiraiya, however deduced that wasn't wise given the number of foes. 

That is one of the strengths of the Pain jutsu, it forces the foe to consider close combat, but it discourages it at the same time.

The part in bold, I believe I said this already?



> How is one thing fair and the other isn't? "If Nagato knew about the genjutsu", well "if Jiraiya knew about Nagato."



I don't believe I commented on the fairness of anything.
Those are just two variables which could have easily influenced the fight i.e. if Nagato knew of the Genjutsu, Jiraiya's plan would have failed and he would have lost as Fukasaku said. However if Jiraiya knew about the secret (Nagato), Pain would have lost, as Pain said.
This is something that works when one of the variables are applied to the fight, not both.



> Nagato said Jiraiya would had won, the only stipulation was knowing of Nagato (a.k.a. the real Pein). It's cut and dry.



For that fight and that fight alone. Pain was telling us what could have changed the outcome of that battle, not that Jiraiya could always beat the Pain jutsu. 

It is incorrect to assume that this cut and dryness means Jiraiya can always beat the Pain jutsu if he knew about the secret. All things equal - i.e. both parties knowing the key knowledge that could've saved them trouble - it isn't likely that Jiraiya can beat the Pain jutsu. However the mechanics for Pain and Jiraiya's battle is another discussion all together. Jiraiya is a perfect illustration to explain the OP's question, if Pain can be beaten with no knowledge.
-------------------------------

This is because we have to look at his experience which show the strengths of Pain. Preta Path forced Jiraiya into thinking CQC is the only option, but the numbers discouraged him. Fukasaku made note that the higher number of bodies made things harder.
Any other fighter would be faced with this almost catch-22 situation, long range is futile but Taijutsu is impractical. In conjunction with shared vision which not only caught Jiraiya, but others like Kakashi, Bee and even Naruto.

The lack of knowledge worsens this because at the same time they need to figure out Pain too. To best realise this: imagine if Jiraiya didn't have knowledge on Pain at all. That is what the OP is putting shinobi against, almost like a deadlock type situation. Especially if you do managed to 'kill' Pain, you're in for a surprise. 

As Obito showed, in a forest like setting, fighting Pain could almost be a nightmare. Especially with the lack of knowledge.


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## Turrin (Apr 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No-one said Pain's knowledge on Jiraiya's jutsu made it hard to fight Pain. From what we saw Pain's coordination made it hard to fight him, particularly because one body nullified Ninjutsu, as per se Madara, made Taijutsu an option. Jiraiya, however deduced that wasn't wise given the number of foes.


Actually it was made note off that Nagato's knowledge of Jiraiya aided him in knowing how to counter Jiraiya's Jutsu's weak points:

Cnet, _"Jiraiya: Since he's my student, it's to be expected... he's going straight for my weak point."_

Your not wrong in saying that Jiraiya struggled due to the nature of the Rinnegan techniques, but part of the difficulty in handling these techniques is that they were techniques Jiraiya had never heard of before, because Nagato (or rather Madara's) Rinnegan was the first Rinnegan to have appeared within the past hundred years. 

So Pain Rikudo was both using techniques Jiraiya had never heard off before and at the same time was aware of many of Jiraiya's own techniques as well as how to counter them. That not to say all the difficulty of the battle came from that, because a good portion comes from the fact that Pain Rikudo is just very strong, but Jiraiya's match against Pain was especially difficult. 



> Nagato in all translations says it was due to the secret. Fukasaku makes a huge deal about Pain not knowing Jiraiya is a good Genjutsu user. This is something Pain remarks on twice, once before and after Jiraiya's response: a mini-theme of being prepared for anything; not underestimating your foe; no matter what.
> 
> The secret is Nagato, if Jiraiya knew Nagato existed he would've used the Genjutsu on Nagato underestimating his Genjutsu power and he would have won. Emphasis was put onto that many chapters later when Pain said he already knew the Genjutsu power that Pa planned to use on him.


I used to think this scenario you have shown was what Nagato was referring to, but my opinion on this has changed. Now I believe that Nagato was making a much more general statement that if Jiraiya had the general knowledge that comes along with knowing the secret of the Pain Jutsu, than he would have defeated Pain Rikudo in general, not necessarily through Genjutsuing Nagato or something similar.

We have to remember what was said in the Tobi battle:
this

Kakashi & Gai stated they had cooked up countermeasures to all the Pain Path's abilities and that's why Tobi has not wasted chakra on using them. And honestly if Kakashi and Gai with intel could do something like that it shouldn't be surprising that Jiraiya, Ma, and Pa could do something like that. In-fact we started to see them figure out some counter measures in their actual battle, however they never got enough time to do so completely, due to their lack of knowledge going into the fight. 

Intel is very important and I think Kishi with Nagato statement was just letting us know that Pain Rikudo isn't so powerful that someone of Jiraiya's statue couldn't win given sufficient knowledge, which ultimately knowing the secret mechanic behind Pain would provide. 

Now granted that doesn't guarantee a win against Nagato, nor does it apply to this no knowledge scenario, but I do believe shinobi of Jiraiya's level can beat Pain Rikudo with a certain degree of knowledge and depending on Pain Rikudo's distance in relation to Nagato (as we know distance effects the power output of a Path, such as in the case of Deva's CT).


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> We have to remember what was said in the Tobi battle:
> This
> 
> Kakashi & Gai stated they had cooked up countermeasures to all the Pain Path's abilities and that's why Tobi has not wasted chakra on using them. And honestly if Kakashi and Gai with intel could do something like that it shouldn't be surprising that Jiraiya, Ma, and Pa could do something like that. In-fact we started to see them figure out some counter measures in their actual battle, however they never got enough time to do so completely, due to their lack of knowledge going into the fight.
> ...



For the parts which centre around the particularities of Jiraiya vs Pain, see your VM.

Though I did notice I touched on some of these points on the VM, I'll repost them here



> I disagree with what you got from the page because those countermeasures aren't actually anything we don't know of:
> - Taijutsu on Preta Realm
> - God Realm's 5 second interim
> - Animal Realm's summons disappearing if it is beaten
> ...



You're wrong in thinking some unexplained tactics were devised to beat Pain. In fact if you read the page you provided, you'll get exactly what I just told you.

Look at Gai: _"so he knows we've already developed strategies to counter all of Pain's abilities"_.
Nothing new, it is based on Konoha's experience; Nagato's statement was centred on the unique situation Jiraiya's fight had. It wasn't a general statement about Jiraiya's capacity in relation to Pain Rikudou. Ergo that message certainty didn't suggest a shinobi of Jiraiya's calibre could defeat Pain, let alone Pain without knowledge. 

Look back at Gai and recall Fukasaku telling Kakashi to split Pain up and fight. 
The main strategy therefore is to split up the bodies and use unique strategies to play on their weak point. This is consistent with what Jiraiya and Fukasaku did in their fight. 

Pain Rikudou with Rinnegan jutsu are most effective and efficient when the opponent hasn't figured them out. However they did in this case, and Tobi did tell the Kage he had Bijuu power, so by hitting two birds with one stone he made them Jinchuriki. 
While still using the clever shared vision and numbers strategy that Pain Rikudou offers.

Even more so when you consider the "no knowledge" factor.


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