# Restricted Zoro vs Restricted Doflamingo



## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

Location: Dressrosa before the battle
Distance: 10 metres
Mindset: In Character
Restrictions (Zoro): Nittoryuu and Asura
Restrictions (Doflamingo): Parasite, Bird Cage and Awakening

I restricted them equally(I think), since Zoro hasn't gone all out, this match should be fair. Who takes it?

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## TheWiggian (May 11, 2016)

Zoro stomps - low diffs.

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## Yuki (May 11, 2016)

TheWiggian said:


> Zoro stomps - low diffs.



............. Legit wtf?

DD mid difs. DD didn't use any of them against Law. Wtf is a restricted Zoro going to do?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (May 11, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> ............. Legit wtf?
> 
> DD mid difs. DD didn't use any of them against Law. Wtf is a restricted Zoro going to do?



Restricted Zoro is a Zoro without his swords and limbs and he still zolos more as 90% of the OPverse.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Zaru (May 11, 2016)

TheWiggian said:


> and he still zolos more as 90% of the OPverse.


Yeah if you count civilians


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## Nekochako (May 11, 2016)

Zoro can do more against Doflamingo then Law but he still loses high diff.


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## Yuki (May 11, 2016)

Nekomamushi said:


> Zoro can do more against Doflamingo then Law but he still loses high diff.



How can a Zoro without his "supposed" best ability doing more to DD than a non restricted Law.  Wtf...


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## Nekochako (May 11, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> How can a Zoro without his "supposed" best ability doing more to DD than a non restricted Law.  Wtf...



He can still use everything he used against Pica and i´m pretty sure that´s plenty in order for Zoro to atleast do better then Law. I don´t see Doflamingo taking Sanzen Sekai without getting notably wounded.

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## Jackalinthebox (May 11, 2016)

Mingo wrecks the shit out of him. Zoro doesn't stand the slightest chance.


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## Yuki (May 11, 2016)

Nekomamushi said:


> He can still use everything he used against Pica and i´m pretty sure that´s plenty in order for Zoro to atleast do better then Law. I don´t see Doflamingo taking Sanzen Sekai without getting notably wounded.



Wtf is this new level of Zoro wank... Law is stronger than even full powered Zoro.  

Now Zorotards are not only saying Zoro > Law but fucking restricted Zoro is > Law.  Wtf...


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## Nekochako (May 11, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Wtf is this new level of Zoro wank... Law is stronger than even full powered Zoro.
> 
> Now Zorotards are not only saying Zoro > Law but fucking restricted Zoro is > Law.  Wtf...



Only problem is that Sanzen Sekai is not restricted which is from what we have seen, Zoro´s strongest attack. If that was restricted i totally accept that Zoro would not do any better then Law. And i do think Law could possibly pull out the win if they were to both fight at full power so i´m not downplaying Law/overhyping Zoro.


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## Yuki (May 11, 2016)

Nekomamushi said:


> Only problem is that the Sanzen Sekai not restricted which is from what we have seen, Zoro´s strongest attack. If that was restricted i totally accept that Zoro would not do any better then Law. And i do think Law could possibly pull out the win if they were to both fight at full power so i´m not downplaying Law/overhyping Zoro.



I don't give a crap if Sanzen Sekai which was used to beat fking Pica is not restricted. It was used to beat Pica.  That's not Zoro's strongest ability. 


Nekomamushi said:


> Only problem is that Sanzen Sekai is not restricted which is from what we have seen, Zoro´s strongest attack. If that was restricted i totally accept that Zoro would not do any better then Law. And i do think Law could possibly pull out the win if they were to both fight at full power so i´m not downplaying Law/overhyping Zoro.



>_> It's Zoro's "shown" strongest attack. >_> Pretty much most think Asura is still his strongest which btw is fking restricted...

Law is > Zoro and has lots of knowledge about DDs abilities which Zoro lacks.

The only way Zoro is doing better here is if Zoro can fucking mid dif Law. >_>


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## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> ............. Legit wtf?
> 
> DD mid difs. DD didn't use any of them against Law. Wtf is a restricted Zoro going to do?


He's not really restricted. I just restricted his featless styles, to avoid speculation about Asura and Nittoryuu.
It's basically current Zoro.

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## Yuki (May 11, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> He's not really restricted. I just restricted his featless styles, to avoid speculation about Asura and Nittoryuu.
> It's basically current Zoro.



Whose best feats is taking down Pica... A fking mid tier.

Law beat someone considered Pica's equal within his crew with one fking arm... THE CUT OFF ONE!

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## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> I don't give a crap if Sanzen Sekai which was used to beat fking Pica is not restricted. It was used to beat Pica.  That's not Zoro's strongest ability.
> 
> 
> >_> It's Zoro's "shown" strongest attack. >_> Pretty much most think Asura is still his strongest which btw is fking restricted...
> ...


What if Zoro is a better matchup for DD?

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## Nekochako (May 11, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> I don't give a crap if Sanzen Sekai which was used to beat fking Pica is not restricted. It was used to beat Pica.  That's not Zoro's strongest ability.
> 
> 
> >_> It's Zoro's "shown" strongest attack. >_> Pretty much most think Asura is still his strongest which btw is fking restricted...
> ...



1. I know cutting down Pica himself is not that big of a thing to be proud off but Zoro´s Sekai attack was strong enough to cut down the whole Pica golem with ease which is pretty damn impressive considering how big the golem was.

2. He might have a upgraded Ashura but i´m going off current feats. Zoro has not shown Ashura yet and i highly doubt that the Enies Lobby Ashura is Zoro´s strongest attack anymore so his Sanzen Sekai is his strongest shown so far.

3. I like to think that Zoro and Law are equals at worst. Law could outdo Zoro with his hax powers but otherwise they are equals.

I know Law has gamma knife but i don´t think that attack is as powerful as Zoro´s Sanzen Sekai. 

Also Doflamingo still mid diffed Law despite gamma knife since Doflamingo undid the notable injuries he suffered from it with his strings but i don´t think his strings could undo Sekai the same way so it´s a high diff fight that way as in my mind if you make your opponent suffer notable injuries in a fight it´s a high diff fight regardless of how easily Doflamingo could had dealt with Zoro´s other stuff.


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## Finalbeta (May 11, 2016)

Honestly :
Don't restrict Zoro and he might have a chance even if it's 10-20%

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## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Whose best feats is taking down Pica... A fking mid tier.
> 
> Law beat someone considered Pica's equal within his crew with one fking arm... THE CUT OFF ONE!


The way I see it, Law's all hax, when his hax doesn't work, he's below other Supernovas.

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## Nekochako (May 11, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> The way I see it, Law's all hax, when his hax doesn't work, he's below other Supernovas.



Don´t know about that. He seems to have good enough swordsmanship so he should still be above some of the other supernovas without the fruit like Bonney and Killer.


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## Shanks (May 11, 2016)

Mingo mid dif


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## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Honestly :
> Don't restrict Zoro and he might have a chance even if it's 10-20%





Amon Lancelot said:


> He's not really restricted. I just restricted his featless styles, to avoid speculation about Asura and Nittoryuu.
> It's basically current Zoro.

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## Yuki (May 11, 2016)

Nekomamushi said:


> 1. I know cutting down Pica himself is not that big of a thing to be proud off but Zoro´s Sekai attack was strong enough to cut down the whole Pica golem with ease which is pretty damn impressive considering how big the golem was.
> 
> 2. He might have a upgraded Ashura but i´m going off current feats. Zoro has not shown Ashura yet and i highly doubt that the Enies Lobby Ashura is Zoro´s strongest attack anymore so his Sanzen Sekai is his strongest shown so far.
> 
> ...



Emm... Laws mountain cutter >>> Zoro's Pica cutter. >_> Pica is tiny compared to damn mountains which Law cut in half. >_>

Gamma knife is not a damn powerful attack, it attacks the organs and bypasses durability. >_> It's a fking fatal move to anyone who it lands on unless they can heal like Marco or switch them selves up like DD. >_>

Sanzen Sekai best feat is cutting a huge clump of rock mass. >_> Zoro didn't even use it on Pica him self that said that his own haki and body is more formidable than his Golem. >_>

I'm pretty fking sure if Pica's haki is more formidable than his Golem then DDs haki fking is as well. >_>


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## Finalbeta (May 11, 2016)

But he needs Asura

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## giantbiceps (May 11, 2016)

Urestricted Zoro vs Deathbed Mingo => Mingo extreme-diffs.
Restricted Zoro vs Normal Mingo => Zoro joins the woman who defeated him 2000 times (Kuina) in the after life.
True story

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## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

Nekomamushi said:


> Don´t know about that. He seems to have good enough swordsmanship so he should still be above some of the other supernovas without the fruit like Bonney and Killer.


Fuji's gravity on law, only slightly dented the earth. Law was immobilized.
When Fuji used gravity on Zoro, it created a massive hole 
This feat:
Fujitora starts exerting gravity on Zoro here.
Notice the size of the hole? This leads me to believe, that it was the weight of the "air" on the ground, that depressed the ground, and not Zoro's weight. Also, look at how deep Zoro has fallen. And we can't even see the bottom.

He's still falling here: 
How deep he eventually fell, is anyone's guess, but In my Opinion, it was in the tens of metres.

Zoro was still able to ovepower same gravity with a one armed air slash, which pushed Fuji back several metres.

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## Nekochako (May 11, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Emm... Laws mountain cutter >>> Zoro's Pica cutter. >_> Pica is tiny compared to damn mountains which Law cut in half. >_>
> 
> gamma knife is not a damn powerful attack, it attacks the organs and bypasses durability. >_> It's a fking fatal move to anyone who it lands on unless they can heal like Marco or switch them selves up like DD. >_>



1. Well there is no way to tell how big the PH mountains are compared to Pica´s golem  and it´s possible that cut Law did is equal to Sanzen Sekai so lets just say that i don´t think Law has anything up his sleeve that is stronger then Sanzen Sekai.

2. I consider a powerful attack to be anything that can severely damage your opponent so yeah it´s powerful since it damages the opponent. My point would probably not be a good one if Zoro was fighting against someone who can´t heal himself from Gamma Knife since there Gamma Knife would probably be more dangerous then Sekai but here he is fighting against Doflamingo who can undo Gamma Knife. GK seems to be a attack that lands more inside the body rather then outside the body where a Sekai attack wounds the body notably outside and if i understand his string healing ability right, he can only heal attacks that way that lands inside his body.



Amon Lancelot said:


> Fuji's gravity on law, only slightly dented the earth. Law was immobilized.
> When Fuji used gravity on Zoro, it created a massive hole
> This feat:
> Fujitora starts exerting gravity on Zoro here.
> ...



I wasen´t comparing Law and Zoro in swordsmanship so i have really nothing to say since i don´t really disagree with anything here. I just said that he could beat the weaker supernovas with his swordsmanship.


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## giantbiceps (May 11, 2016)

Do you think Restricted Zoro can beat Sanji ? 
And can he push non-G4 Luffy to high-diff ?

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## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

giantbiceps said:


> Do you think Restricted Zoro can beat Sanji ?
> And can he push non-G4 Luffy to high-diff ?


This Zoro's just current Zoro.
I think Zoro can mid diff Vergo, and I think Vergo can high diff Sanji

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## Pocalypse (May 11, 2016)

So this is basically unrestricted, normal Zoro vs a heavily restricted Doflamingo because all of Zoro's strongest attacks have been Santoryu, hasn't used any Nitoryu attacks post-skip (far as I'm aware, certainly not on the same scale as any Santoryu attacks) and Asura by default shouldn't be used anyway because we haven't seen the post-skip version so there's no context to go on to powerscale... while Doffy's got Parasite, his go-to technique, his best defense (Birdcage) and his trump card (Awakening) restricted. The title and conditions are misleading as fuck.

With all that said, Doffy mid-diffs


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 11, 2016)

Doffy can pretty much dodge or block most of Zoro's attacks, and with things like Black Knight, Spider web etc, he can mount a good offense. Not to mention he can heal zoro's cuts if they land.

There's nothing he can do to doffy.


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## Bernkastel (May 11, 2016)

Zoro can only hope to give mid diff with his current showings...
Btw Hancock > Law > Zoro


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## Finalbeta (May 11, 2016)

Zoro would lose this fight bad to be honest

Ashura is some sort of his G4 equivalent

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## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Zoro would lose this fight bad to be honest
> 
> Ashura is some sort of his G4 equivalent


Doffy doesn't have awakening, parasite or bird cage here though? O_o

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## Finalbeta (May 11, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Doffy doesn't have awakening, parasite or bird cage here though? o_O


Luffy was getting stomped bad before awakening before he unleashed G4
This ofc before gamma knife and Law isn't here

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## Bernkastel (May 11, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Zoro would lose this fight bad to be honest
> 
> Ashura is some sort of his G4 equivalent



Νο it isn't you're just fanboying.The faster you realise Zoro isn't equal to Luffy the better.



Amon Lancelot said:


> Doffy doesn't have awakening, parasite or bird cage here though? o_O



He didn't need any of those to beat the living shit out of Law a superior character than Zoro...Zoro will fare worse since he's much less versaitle and mobile than Law and will be taking lots of hits.


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## Finalbeta (May 11, 2016)

At least Asura can make him get close to Doffy level tho Luffy in G4 totally outclasses him

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## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

Bernkastel said:


> Law a superior character than Zoro...


Speculation

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## Bernkastel (May 11, 2016)

Feats


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## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

Hyouzou nosold a jet pistol, and reflexively countered, reacting fast enough to break skin and poison Luffy. This was with one sword, and in base form. Luffy even called him strong.

Base Hyouzou has reaction speed to react to G2.

The monster transformation that Hody and Hyouzou underwent, increased all their stats; speed, endurance, durability, strength, everything.

Monster Hyouzou with 8 swords got blitzed so bad by Zoro, that Zoro bisected his 8 swords horizontally and vertically so fast that Hyouzou didn't even see it. Zoro made 16 slashes Monster Hyouzou's eyes couldn't even follow.

Zoro's attack speed >> G2's attack speed

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## Veltpunch (May 11, 2016)

We need to see more from Zoro. He has yet to be pushed to his limit, or anywhere near that but, Doffy > Luffy so Doffy wins.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Monstar6 (May 11, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Not to mention he can heal zoro's cuts if they land.


Since when Doflamingo can heal outside cuts?

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## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

I see no one is replying to this point of mine:


Amon Lancelot said:


> Hyouzou nosold a jet pistol, and reflexively countered, reacting fast enough to break skin and poison Luffy. This was with one sword, and in base form. Luffy even called him strong.
> 
> Base Hyouzou has reaction speed to react to G2.
> 
> ...



I take it you agree?

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## Finalbeta (May 11, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> Since when Doflamingo can heal outside cuts?


Doflamingo can if the injuries are not quite bad
For example if his stomach gets slashed a bit he can use his DF ability to repair the damage, but if his internals get completely crushed he won't be able too

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## Monstar6 (May 11, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Doflamingo can if the injuries are not quite bad
> For example if his stomach gets slashed a bit he can use his DF ability to repair the damage, but if his internals get completely crushed he won't be able too



Do you have any manga panels that show this?


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## Finalbeta (May 11, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> Do you have any manga panels that show this?


I speculate considering that the ability allows the user to create strings to recover from internals' damages, if he managed against a powerful haxed move like Gamma Knife he could against mid level injuries. This is my guess.
But a slash that immediately destroys for example your liver or Akainu's magma fist that turns all of your ribcage into dust, there would be nothing to do about that.

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 11, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> Since when Doflamingo can heal outside cuts?



Since he healed multiple complex internal cuts done by gamma knife.
Stictching up internal organs is faaaaar more complicated than doing so with external cuts. Doing the same with external cuts should be childs play, especially simple shaped slash wounds given by zoro.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Since he healed multiple complex internal cuts done by gamma knife.
> Stictching up internal organs is faaaaar more complicated than doing so with external cuts. Doing the same with external cuts should be childs play, especially simple shaped slash wounds given by zoro.


When he grabbed Law's sword and blood was drawn, I don't remember him stitching it.

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 11, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> When he grabbed Law's sword and blood was drawn, I don't remember him stitching it.



Okay. Find me a panel showing a cut wound on his hand after that point to prove that he didn't stitch  it.

I also didn't see him use parasite and awakening when he had multiple chances to on luffy and law. But you know, it's not that he CAN"t. It's more that Oda being Oda.

Edit: Actually, let me make your job a little easier with a more prominent wound. Find me panels showing the injection shot wound after Law inflicted it on Doffy after some time had passed.


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## hokageyonkou (May 11, 2016)

Dofla high diff.


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## Monstar6 (May 11, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Since he healed multiple complex internal cuts done by gamma knife.
> Stictching up internal organs is faaaaar more complicated than doing so with external cuts. Doing the same with external cuts should be childs play, especially simple shaped slash wounds given by zoro.




It was never states that "Gamma knife" does internals cuts. "Gamma knife it states to destroy the internals organs and we don't know how it did that. "Injection Shot" it's not a cut either it's like "Aubade Coup Droit".

So there's no proof that Dofla can stitch external cut with his fruit.

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## Nekochako (May 11, 2016)

While it´s possible that Doflamingo can heal outside wounds, i prefer him being able to only heal inside wounds, him being able to heal all his wounds would make him a little too hax for my taste.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 11, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> It was never states that "Gamma knife" does internals cuts. "Gamma knife it states to destroy the internals organs and we don't know how it did that. "Injection Shot" it's not a cut either it's like "Aubade Coup Droit".
> 
> So there's no proof that Dofla can stitch external cut with his fruit.



Then that makes it even more effective at repairing external cuts with his fruit, if he can repair some abstract way of "destroying" internal organs.

It's actually shocking that anyone would question his ability to do so.
Apparently fixing internal organs is far different from repairing external tissue.

You need to explain to me why stitching together "destroyed" internal organs is possible, but an external cut, which is the simplest type of wound, is not possible.

Also, stitching with threads is the way to repair incision/cut/laceration type wounds. No other type of wound would work with it. It's a reasonable assumption. 

Also injection shot is a stab wound. It's in the name. "INJECTION". As in a stab wound. Not "Bullet" or whatever.



Nekomamushi said:


> While it´s possible that Doflamingo can heal outside wounds, i prefer him being able to only heal inside wounds, him being able to heal all his wounds would make him a little too hax for my taste.



He doesn't heal, he only repairs and reduces the damage. He's not Marco. He made that distinction himself.


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## Nekochako (May 11, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> He doesn't heal, he only repairs and reduces the damage. He's not Marco. He made that distinction himself.



Oh right, can´t believe i forgot that Doffy said that but then he can´t repair outside wounds as effectively as with inside wounds i guess.


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## Jackalinthebox (May 11, 2016)

The good ole' "Doffy has healing abilities that completely canceled out Gamma Knife" argument.


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## Yuki (May 11, 2016)

Someone being able to stitch together internal wounds but not external is the biggest BS i've ever fking heard. 

I can fking stitch external wounds if you give me some thread and a fking needle.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

Reaction Speed: Pre TS Zoro reacted to Kuma's pad canons and his lasers. No other straw hat pulled a comparable  feat Pre TS.

Post TS, with decent COO, I can only imagine. 

Law who's  vastly below Zoro in raw strength, was able to cut and draw blood from DD despite his hardening. Zoro who's leagues above him in strength, should do much  more. When his nameless slashes are overpowering Tens of thousands of g of gravity and pushing back an admiral, Zoro should be able to deal much more damage than Law. 

He can block DD's attacks as well, considering Law could.

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## Jackalinthebox (May 11, 2016)

Zoro isn't going to be landing any attacks, considering Law needed Shambles to do so. Doffy would walk out of this fight with nothing but a couple scratches imo.

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## Monstar6 (May 11, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Then that makes it even more effective at repairing external cuts with his fruit, if he can repair some abstract way of "destroying" internal organs.
> 
> It's actually shocking that anyone would question his ability to do so.
> Apparently fixing internal organs is far different from repairing external tissue.
> ...



Exactly. Repairing internal organ is not the same thing than stitching external cut.
You do not repair a kidney the same way you amputate a leg ( the 2 surgeries are made by 2 differents kind of surgeons for a reason).

This is why i'm saying that there is no proof that Dofla can stitch externals cuts.

Is an assumption, at best, not a fact.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 11, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> Exactly. Repairing internal organ is not the same thing than stitching external cut.
> You do not repair a kidney the same way you amputate a leg ( the 2 surgeries are made by 2 differents kind of surgeons for a reason).
> 
> This is why i'm saying that there is no proof that Dofla can stitch externals cuts.
> ...



Except for the fact that he actually managed to repair multiple internal organs. It just wasn't a single organ. If doffy can proficiently handle stitching something internally, not even in his sights, or without having significant feeling, completely hidden away, an external cut should be a piece of cake.

Also, Doffy did amputate Law so... 

Many people can self amputate in emergencies as well.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Zoro isn't going to be landing any attacks, considering Law needed Shambles to do so. Doffy would walk out of this fight with nothing but a couple scratches imo.


 Zoro blitzed kuma, blitzed monster Hyouzou who in base could react to G2 Jet Pistol.

Zoro is tiers  above Law in physical stats.

So yiur argument  doesn't  apply .

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 11, 2016)

The funniest part is you can't even operate on an internal organ without knowing how to properly reflect the layers of skin, muscle, bones etc, and actually know how to CLOSE it again.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 11, 2016)

Like holy shit this is hilarious. 

Ultracomplicated surgery to be performed on complicated internal organs like the heart, lungs, guts etc, with minimal feeling and no vision and relatively less sensory input than superficial layers? NO PROBLEMO!!

Cut on the outside? Well tough shit, better bleed out. 

Fucking hell what a riot


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## Jackalinthebox (May 11, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Zoro blitzed kuma, blitzed monster Hyouzou who in base could react to G2 Jet Pistol.
> 
> Zoro is tiers  above Law in physical stats.
> 
> So yiur argument  doesn't  apply .


Zoro is not tiers above him in speed or reaction time. Law's fights against Smoker, Vergo, and Doflamingo had him displaying better feats in those areas than Zoro has up to this point.

Your statement is basically; based purely on what you want to believe. Oh, and please don't tell me you think Zoro is faster than G2 Luffy.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 11, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Oh, and please don't tell me you think Zoro is faster than G2 Luffy.



Zoro is faster than G2 Luffy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Jackalinthebox (May 11, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Zoro is faster than G2 Luffy.


Tashigi is faster than the both of them.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 11, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Tashigi is faster than the both of them.



Sanji in Nami's body is confirmed faster than all of them as shown by their run from shinokuni.


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## Finalbeta (May 11, 2016)

Sanji made Nami reach her 100 % of full potential

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## God Movement (May 11, 2016)

Doflamingo fucking annihilates him


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## J★J♥ (May 11, 2016)

Doflamingo punches him in the face and Zoro dies.

It took plot armor Luffys strength Laws hax and tp combinations to take Dofla out. Dofla basically had to *DIE* wia Bullshit and bring himself back from *DEATH* for Luffy to stand a chance and *EVEN THEN* it took W*HOLE ISLAND HELPING* HIM to beat *DYING* Doflamingo.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (May 11, 2016)

J★J♥ said:


> Doflamingo punches him in the face and Zoro dies.
> 
> It took plot armor Luffys strength Laws hax and tp combinations to take Dofla out. Dofla basically had to *DIE* wia Bullshit and bring himself back from *DEATH* for Luffy to stand a chance and *EVEN THEN* it took W*HOLE ISLAND HELPING* HIM to beat *DYING* Doflamingo.


Stop posting

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## Amon Lancelot (May 11, 2016)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Stop posting


Everyone's allowed their own little fanfiction

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## Yuki (May 11, 2016)

SO now not only is Zoro the strongest physical SH even though Luffy has always been the one to show the best strength feats arc to arc.

But now Zoro is also the fastest SH. Topkek.

Let the Zoro wank never end.


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## Veltpunch (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Zoro is not tiers above him in speed or reaction time. Law's fights against Smoker, Vergo, and Doflamingo had him displaying better feats in those areas than Zoro has up to this point.
> 
> Your statement is basically; based purely on what you want to believe. Oh, and please don't tell me you think Zoro is faster than G2 Luffy.





Juvia. said:


> SO now not only is Zoro the strongest physical SH even though Luffy has always been the one to show the best strength feats arc to arc.
> 
> But now Zoro is also the fastest SH. Topkek.
> 
> Let the Zoro wank never end.


I'm pretty sure they're talking about base, raw. Zoro is definitely faster than Law when it comes to natural speed. With his DF (which is what counts because this is how he fights) of course not. what's faster than teleportation.

As far as him being stronger than Luffy in raw physical strength, that's not hard to believe at all.


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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> I'm pretty sure they're talking about base, raw. Zoro is definitely faster than Law when it comes to natural speed. With his DF (which is what counts because this is how he fights) of course not. what's faster than teleportation.
> 
> As far as him being stronger than Luffy in raw physical strength, that's not hard to believe at all.


Since Zoro is definitely faster, mind showing me anything that backs that claim up? If it's definitive, there should be solid proof. Too bad there's nothing that even implies anything of the sort. 

Baseless claim is baseless.


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## Yuki (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> I'm pretty sure they're talking about base, raw. Zoro is definitely faster than Law when it comes to natural speed. With his DF (which is what counts because this is how he fights) of course not. what's faster than teleportation.
> 
> As far as him being stronger than Luffy in raw physical strength, that's not hard to believe at all.



Law has really good speed/reaction feats. Strength his not his thing but for him to be at all decent with his hax he needs to be really REALLY fast.

Zoro is all about skill. His strength and speed are second to that.

Luffy has always had the better psychical strength feats.


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## Veltpunch (May 12, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Law has really good speed/reaction feats. Strength his not his thing but for him to be at all decent with his hax he needs to be really REALLY fast.
> 
> Zoro is all about skill. His strength and speed are second to that.
> 
> Luffy has always had the better psychical strength feats.


Yes, but *raw *movement speed in general is what he was talking about, and that's true. Zoro does have the better *raw *movement speed.

Skill, speed and strength go hand in hand, especially for a swordsman. Either way, that's irrelevant to what he was saying. Just from a raw physical strength standpoint, outside of their fighting styles, I would not be surprised if Zoro were stronger, I'm just saying that it's so believable it can't be wanking.


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## Veltpunch (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Since Zoro is definitely faster, mind showing me anything that backs that claim up? If it's definitive, there should be solid proof. Too bad there's nothing that even implies anything of the sort.
> 
> Baseless claim is baseless.


There's no proof that Zoro has better *raw movement speed *than Law? Lol wut? How many impressive speed feats does Law even have outside of his DF teleportation?


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## Yuki (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Yes, but *raw *movement speed in general is what he was talking about, and that's true. Zoro does have the better *raw *movement speed.
> 
> Skill, speed and strength go hand in hand, especially for a swordsman. Either way, that's irrelevant to what he was saying. Just from a raw physical strength standpoint, outside of their fighting styles, I would not be surprised if Zoro were stronger, I'm just saying that it's so believable it can't be wanking.



Zoro was getting outsped by Sanji in Nami's body. Lel...

Luffy has always had the better strength feats.

There for yes it is wanking saying that Zoro is physically stronger when his feats don't compare. >_>

It's like saying Zoro is faster than Sanji even though once again, Sanji was outspeeding him in Nami's body and saying it's not wanking.

Speed Luffy > Sanji > Law >= Zoro > Brook

Strength Luffy > Zoro >> Sanji >= Franky > Law

CoO Sanji > Luffy = Law > Zoro

CoA Zoro > Luffy = Law > Sanji


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## Veltpunch (May 12, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Zoro was getting outsped by Sanji in Nami's body. Lel...


Oh, y'all were serious with this? Oh dear....



> Luffy has always had the better strength feats.
> 
> There for yes it is wanking saying that Zoro is physically stronger when his feats don't compare. >_>


Am I missing something post-skip?



> It's like saying Zoro is faster than Sanji even though once again, Sanji was outspeeding him in Nami's body and saying it's not wanking.


Sanji is clearly faster, but I can't take your example serious.



> Speed Luffy > Sanji > Law >= Zoro > Brook
> 
> Strength Luffy > Zoro >> Sanji >= Franky > Law
> 
> ...


Sanji should be the fastest SH. Strength wise, I guess fighting the force of Fuji's gravity isn't impressive anymore. And top Lel at Law being >= to zoro in speed. A downplayer is just as bad as a wanker Juvie.


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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> There's no proof that Zoro has better *raw movement speed *than Law? Lol wut? How many impressive speed feats does Law even have outside of his DF teleportation?


Law was able to run away from both Doffy and Fujitora for a good while before getting captured. He also outran at least one of Fuji's meteors.

Okay, your turn. What speed feat does Zoro have; that blows those out of the water?


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## Imagine (May 12, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> *CoA Zoro > Luffy* = Law > Sanji


Since when? 

Luffy was blocking attacks from Dofla with his CoA, even awakened attacks. Zoro has shown no CoA feats on that level.


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## Yuki (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Oh, y'all were serious with this? Oh dear....
> 
> Am I missing something post-skip?
> 
> ...



Still a thing that happened.

Clearly.

Sanji gets around fast, but in battle everyone reacts to him fine while Luffy bliz's people. Even people like DD have a hard time keeping up with Luffy's G2 attacks. DD him self said that Luffy's speed is enough to beat him in time, but in G2 he lacks the power, as such he'd never beat him in time for Bird Cage to kill everyone.


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## Yuki (May 12, 2016)

Imagine said:


> Since when?
> 
> Luffy was blocking attacks from Dofla with his CoA, even awakened attacks. Zoro has shown no CoA feats on that level.



Zoro is a CoA specialist while Luffy is middle ground over both CoA and CoO.

Ray said that most people train in one type of haki and because exceptionally powerful in it. But Luffy is training all 3. As such it makes sense. At least to me. I could be wrong, but still i'll believe this is how it is for now.


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## Veltpunch (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Law was able to run away from both Doffy and Fujitora for a good while before getting captured. He also outran at least one of Fuji's meteors.
> 
> Okay, your turn. What speed feat does Zoro have; that blows those out of the water?


.......Aside from the fact that they didn't want him dead....he was using his DF to hold them off.

Literally any speed feat he has is better than what Law's got as far as raw natural speed.



Juvia. said:


> Zoro is a CoA specialist while Luffy is middle ground over both CoA and CoO.
> 
> Ray said that most people train in one type of haki and because exceptionally powerful in it. But Luffy is training all 3. As such it makes sense. At least to me. I could be wrong, but still i'll believe this is how it is for now.


Quoted the wrong post... I'm responding to your post above this one:

Still can't tell if serious.

Show me a base Luffy strength feat that is better than fighting against Fuji's gravity.

And who has Luffy fought besides Doffy again? As far as the G2 thing goes, do you have the panels for that? Because I recall hyouzu reacting the G2 relatively easy. I can't image in Doflamingo would have trouble doing the same. And sanji should be the fastest SH.


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## Yuki (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> .......Aside from the fact that they didn't want him dead....he was using his DF to hold them off.
> 
> Literally any speed feat he has is better than what Law's got as far as raw natural speed.
> 
> ...



1. Zoro didn't get a strength feat vs Fugi's gravity.  He used an air slash to stop Fugi from using his gravity and then crawled back up out of the damn hole.

And even if it was, do you honestly think if Fugi did it on Luffy that Luffy would be completely helpless and unable to do anything? Meaning Fugi can just defeat Luffy by making a simple hand movment? No. >_> Luffy WOULD get out of the hole with only psychical strength because unlike Zoro, Luffy dose not have any ranged attacks. 

2. Luffy blize'd CC and DD at times did find it hard reacting to G2. >_>

Just because hyouzu reacted to Luffy's G2 when Luffy was punching out some fodder does not mean her can constantly react to Luffy's speed. 

Show me anyone at all EVER having a hard time reacting to Sanji. 

Sanji got a surprise attack on DD and DD still reacted AND blocked to it. >_>


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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Still a thing that happened.
> 
> Clearly.
> 
> Sanji gets around fast, but in battle everyone reacts to him fine while Luffy bliz's people. Even people like DD have a hard time keeping up with Luffy's G2 attacks. DD him self said that Luffy's speed is enough to beat him in time, but in G2 he lacks the power, as such he'd never beat him in time for Bird Cage to kill everyone.


Read this:


Amon Lancelot said:


> Hyouzou nosold a jet pistol, and reflexively countered, reacting fast enough to break skin and poison Luffy. This was with one sword, and in base form. Luffy even called him strong.
> 
> Base Hyouzou has reaction speed to react to G2.
> 
> ...

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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> .......Aside from the fact that they didn't want him dead....he was using his DF to hold them off.
> 
> Literally any speed feat he has is better than what Law's got as far as raw natural speed.


So let me get this right...because they didn't want Law dead; they made sure to not chase him at full speed and Fuji made his meteors slower. They wanted to capture him, they'd be going full speed as to not let him escape. 

As for the DF usage, we literally saw him running from Fuji's meteors and running away from Doffy who was chasing behind him. Unless the Ope Ope provides a passive speed boost, he was using raw movement speed in those instances. 

Your argument is pretty much based off nothing, except you wanting Zoro to be faster; so he automatically is. If your last statement was true, that would mean East Blue Zoro is faster than Law.


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## Veltpunch (May 12, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> 1. Zoro didn't get a strength feat vs Fugi's gravity.  He used an air slash to stop Fugi from using his gravity and then crawled back up out of the damn hole.


Lol, so it didn't take strength to be able to get off an attack while being forced into the ground by the gravity, or fighting against the gravity, which clearly had him pinned and declining at a very fast pace?. Again, show me a base Luffy feat that's better.



> 2. Luffy blize'd CC and DD at times did find it hard reacting to G2. >_>


Sanji can't blitz CC?  Again, do you have scan to support DD having a hard time with G2 and saying those things that you said he said?



> Just because hyouzu reacted to Luffy's G2 when Luffy was punching out some fodder does not mean her can constantly react to Luffy's speed.


Of course not, but you're making it seem like Doffy could not respond to G2 and expressed as much (still waiting on the scans) and the fact that a guy like hyouzo could react to it makes it less believable that Doffu couldn't.



> Show me anyone at all EVER having a hard time reacting to Sanji.


Vergo. Didn't do shit to him but he caught him a couple times. 



> Sanji got a surprise attack on DD and DD still reacted AND blocked to it. >_>


And you're talking about *Doflamingo *here. Really?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 12, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Law has really good speed/reaction feats. Strength his not his thing but for him to be at all decent with his hax he needs to be really REALLY fast.
> 
> *Zoro is all about skill. *His strength and speed are second to that.
> 
> Luffy has always had the better psychical strength feats.



 topkek Zoro is a brute. 

On-topic. Doflamingo kicks his ass just like he kicked Laws ass. If the Goal of this thread was your attempt to restrict the charcters so they can fight on even ground and make us think about who might win then you failed OP. First off you arguably restricted Zoro more then Doffy which is silly since Doffy is the one that needs the restrictions in the first place. So again doffy kicks his ass.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 12, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Zoro was getting outsped by Sanji in Nami's body. Lel...
> 
> Luffy has always had the better strength feats.
> 
> ...



Strength list is fucked up really fucked up. 

There is no large gap between Zoro and Sanji. Franky is sure as hell not even close to Sanji in strength. And Da faq is law doing below franky.


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## Yuki (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Read this:



How about no?


Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Strength list is fucked up really fucked up.
> 
> There is no large gap between Zoro and Sanji. Franky is sure as hell not even close to Sanji in strength. And Da faq is law doing below franky.



>_> How to fk is Sanji on par with Zoro when it comes to physical strength?

Franky is strong as fuck for the tier he resides on.

Law legit needs no physical strength nor does he have even one strength feat.

Once again with the "Everyone on one tier is better at someone else on a lower tier in every single aspect. Meanwhile everyone on the same tier has around the same base stats in every single aspect."

Do i need to remind you that the fastest pirate in WBs crew was one of his weaker commanders that Sanji could probably beat right now?


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## Yuki (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Lol, so it didn't take strength to be able to get off an attack while being forced into the ground by the gravity, or fighting against the gravity, which clearly had him pinned and declining at a very fast pace?. Again, show me a base Luffy feat that's better.
> 
> Sanji can't blitz CC?  Again, do you have scan to support DD having a hard time with G2 and saying those things that you said he said?
> 
> ...



So then i guess you think Fugi can defeat Luffy with a simple hand movment and Luffy can do nothing about it. Got it. 

CC actually got some pretty good reaction and tanking feats. 

He could react, but not all the time. >_> I really need to give you the scan of the infamous scan of DD calling Luffy's G2 too weak? Really? Because it was on that very page that DD said Luffy is fast enough. When they were fighting DD was talking about "How are you going to defeat me before Birdcage kills everyone on the island." Aka, Luffy is fast enough to get the hits in, but too weak for the hits to get the job done. Which in all honestly was all done for the reveal of G4. G3 was too slow, G2 was too weak. Hence G4.  Something with the speed of G2 and the strength of G3.

As for Vergo, Sanji didn't blitz, he got in a surprise attack and after that they were trading hits equally.


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## Extravlad (May 12, 2016)

Dofy is restricted more than Zoro in this fight.

Zoro wins with mid diff .

Full power Zoro vs Full power Doffy is already a high-mid/high-high diff fight for Doffy and it's only based off the feats Zoro has shown so far, full power Zoro might as well be able to straight up solos unrestricted Doffy.

Zoro has the edge in durability,strength,stamina and only lose out in moblity/speed, CoA is a toss-up really, I'd still bet on Zoro to have the stronger one tho

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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

Idk how high I'd rank Franky's strength, but Law's definitely isn't shit tier. His strength was on par with Smoker's and was enough to defend against some of Doffy's strongest attacks. Franky does no doubt have monstrous strength though.


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## Yuki (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Idk how high I'd rank Franky's strength, but Law's definitely isn't shit tier. His strength was on par with Smoker's and was enough to defend against some of Doffy's strongest attacks. Franky does no doubt have monstrous strength though.



I would not really call being able to block or avoid an attack a good strength feat though.  Not unless it's like someone stopping idk Jozu's punch with one hand and being like. "You have a diamond arm? That's awesome dude." (I'll plus rep anyone that gets that reference.)

Yea, Franky is a monster for his level.

Like Monster Chopper is for his.


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## Veltpunch (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> So let me get this right...because they didn't want Law dead; they made sure to not chase him at full speed and Fuji made his meteors slower. They wanted to capture him, they'd be going full speed as to not let him escape.


Re-read the chapter. I just did. You are completely overrating what happened there.



> As for the DF usage, we literally saw him running from Fuji's meteors and running away from Doffy who was chasing behind him. Unless the Ope Ope provides a passive speed boost, he was using raw movement speed in those instances.


Just re-read and I didn't see that. Show the scans.



> Your argument is pretty much based off nothing, except you wanting Zoro to be faster; so he automatically is. If your last statement was true, that would mean East Blue Zoro is faster than Law.


Nah, it's actually a no-brainer. Just to name a few raw movement speed feats he has: moving underwater faster than fishmen, his movement speed pretty much with any attack he's used so far (Shishi Sonson etc). Show me better raw movement speed fears for Law.


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## Veltpunch (May 12, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> So then i guess you think Fugi can defeat Luffy with a simple hand movment and Luffy can do nothing about it. Got it.


Concession accepted.



> CC actually got some pretty good reaction and tanking feats.


Concession accepted.



> He could react, but not all the time. >_> I really need to give you the scan of the infamous scan of DD calling Luffy's G2 too weak? Really? Because it was on that very page that DD said Luffy is fast enough. When they were fighting DD was talking about "How are you going to defeat me before Birdcage kills everyone on the island." Aka, Luffy is fast enough to get the hits in, but too weak for the hits to get the job done. Which in all honestly was all done for the reveal of G4. G3 was too slow, G2 was too weak. Hence G4.  Something with the speed of G2 and the strength of G3.


You need to re-read the chapter. I just did and all he said was "you have the speed, just lacks strength" as he casually floated around with his arms folded after tanking the hit (similar to how he did with Sanji's DJ. That does not imply that he can't react to G2. Of course Luffy is going to get hits in.



> As for Vergo, Sanji didn't blitz, he got in a surprise attack and after that they were trading hits equally.


Didnt say he blitzed him, but he did catch him off-guard a couple times.


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## Yuki (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Concession accepted.
> 
> Concession accepted.
> 
> ...



Any person that ever uses that stupid ass term is not worth arguing with. Your going on ignore, i'm done with you. ^^/


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## Veltpunch (May 12, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Any person that ever uses that stupid ass term is not worth arguing with. Your going on ignore, i'm done with you. ^^/


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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Juvia. keep calm, I Always have to do with shit posters but it's just thug life, I'm not referring to Velt, he is good

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## Zyrax (May 12, 2016)

> *CoA Zoro > Luffy = Law *> Sanji

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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Re-read the chapter. I just did. You are completely overrating what happened there.
> 
> Just re-read and I didn't see that. Show the scans.
> 
> Nah, it's actually a no-brainer. Just to name a few raw movement speed feats he has: moving underwater faster than fishmen, his movement speed pretty much with any attack he's used so far (Shishi Sonson etc). Show me better raw movement speed fears for Law.


That encounter took place over multiple chapters, not just one lol.



You're not backing up your claims with anything. Swimming and running speed have nothing to do with eachother. especially considering Law can't even swim. Saying "he moves fast with these techniques" when you have nothing to scale it from, equals out to proving nothing.


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## J★J♥ (May 12, 2016)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Stop posting


I will stop posting when you stop drinking Brawndo instead of water.


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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Zyrax Pasha said:


>


Same reaction
Noobs gonna noob
By fortune there are still people who read the manga

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Yuki (May 12, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Juvia. keep calm, I Always have to do with shit posters but it's just thug life, I'm not referring to Velt, he is good



No one who ever says. "Concession accepted." Is a good poster. It's the post of idiots that are too stupid to realize the person arguing with them just can't put up with their stupidity any longer.


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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> No one who ever says. "Concession accepted." Is a good poster. It's the post of idiots that are too stupid to realize the person arguing with them just can't put up with their stupidity any longer.


Everyone has their defects, take me as example, how many? 
But I'm working on them, give him an hope

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Extravlad said:


> Dofy is restricted more than Zoro in this fight.
> 
> Zoro wins with mid diff .
> 
> ...





Amon Lancelot said:


> Hyouzou nosold a jet pistol, and reflexively countered, reacting fast enough to break skin and poison Luffy. This was with one sword, and in base form. Luffy even called him strong.
> 
> Base Hyouzou has reaction speed to react to G2.
> 
> ...

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Idk how high I'd rank Franky's strength, but Law's definitely isn't shit tier. His strength was on par with Smoker's and was enough to defend against some of Doffy's strongest attacks. Franky does no doubt have monstrous strength though.


Gravity that barely dented the ground, was enough to keep Law immobile.
Gravity, that raised the weight of air so much, that it made a massive hole several tens of metres deep, (should be at the barest minimum, thousands of times greater than Law's gravity), was not enough to keep the grandmaster down. Zoro overcame that gravity with a one armed ittoryuu slash, and pushed back a fucking admiral.

Zoro is tiers above Law in physical strength. They can't even be compared.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

@Juvia, @Peter Pan, @Zyrax Pasha, @Jackalinthebox, @truedetectiveseason2intro, I see you guys have no counter argument for my Hyouzou feat.
Zoro >> G2 Luffy in attack speed

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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

I never even said anything about Law and Zoro being comparable in terms of strength. 

Will say one thing though, Law was wasting time; so it would've been counter productive to try and escape immediately. You'd probably know that if you read the chapter.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> I never even said anything about Law and Zoro being comparable in terms of strength.
> 
> Will say one thing though, Law was wasting time; so it would've been counter productive to try and escape immediately. You'd probably know that if you read the chapter.


I know, but the fact remains that he escaped using Shambles. He couldn't do jack under the gravity.

Just mentioned it, so everyone would know Zoro's like a thousand times greater than Law in raw strength.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

@Juvia 
1. It's "outlier" not "outliner"
2. It's not an outlier just because you say it is.

I guess Zoro reacting to Kuma's pad canons and lasers (a feat Luffy needed a timeskip and COO to accomplish,) is an outlier as well.
Or Zoro sodomising Monet where Luffy "lost"
Or 1080 PC being more destructive than grizzly magnum
Or Zoro pushing back an Admiral under tens of thousands of g of gravity
Or Zoro coming out unscathed from his second clash with an Admiral
Stay butthurt sis.

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## Daisuke Jigen (May 12, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Strength Franky > Law



OT: Doflamingo wins.


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## Yuki (May 12, 2016)

Why the fk are people quoting little things from me with someone saying Zoro is fking miles faster than G2 Luffy. 

Like... really?

But still, lol at anyone that thinks Law can lift more weights than Franky can.


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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I know, but the fact remains that he escaped using Shambles. He couldn't do jack under the gravity.
> 
> Just mentioned it, so everyone would know Zoro's like a thousand times greater than Law in raw strength.


Still not strong enough to avoid getting chopped into pieces inside Law's Room.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Still not strong enough to avoid getting chopped into pieces inside Law's Room.


In your fan fiction?

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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> In your fan fiction?


Law has the better feats and portrayal. Until we see more from Zoro, he loses the majority.


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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Zolo in raw strenght >>>>>>>>> Law

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Why the fk are people quoting little things from me with someone saying Zoro is fking miles faster than G2 Luffy.
> 
> Like... really?
> 
> But still, lol at anyone that thinks Law can lift more weights than Franky can.


Sis, it's attack speed, not movement speed.
In case you didn't know, Zoro has always had insane attack speed.

Against Ryuma,
We had Franky and Usopp asking when they clashed. They'd moved so fast they didn't seevit.
He proceeded to blitz Kuma with a Shishi sonson, this dude can teleport.
Post Timeskip, against the Kraken, when Zoro cut the tentacles into 6, Usopp and Franky were saying he didn't even move his swords
Against Hody, he blitzed him. Fishmen said he moved faster than a fishman. Sanji who you think is faster than Zoro, was only compared to a normal fishman. Shark fishmen are noted to be faster than others.
Versus Pica, before falling down, he was spamming large hill/small mountain busting slashes before landing.
The Hyouzou feat

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Zolo in raw strenght >>>>>>>>> Law


Thank you.
Zoro in attack speed >> G2 Luffy
Zoro in reaction speed > G2 Luffy
Zoro in DC >> G3 Luffy
Zoro in strength > Luffy
Zoro in endurance >> Luffy
Zoro in range > Luffy

Zoro's basically a more lethal faster stronger G2/G3 fusion, only without time limit and side effects.

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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Luffy himself made the compliments to Hyouzou

So it's not even PIS

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Luffy himself made the compliments to Hyouzou
> 
> So it's not even PIS


And Zoro proceeded to sodomize him.
Oda made it clear that Zoro improved the most during the skip, which isn't funny when you consider that he had the strongest teacher, who was the best in Zoro's choosing fighting style.
Rayleigh could only teach Luffy haki, and give him general pointers, but Mihawk could teach Zoro haki, the way of the sword, and spar with him. With his life goal in front of him, Zoro's motivation, would have been through the roof.

It would have been retarded if Luffy grew at the same pace as Zoro, talkless of above him.

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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> And Zoro proceeded to sodomize him.
> Oda made it clear that Zoro improved the most during the skip, which isn't funny when you consider that he had the strongest teacher, who was the best in Zoro's choosing fighting style.
> Rayleigh could only teach Luffy haki, and give him general pointers, but Mihawk could teach Zoro haki, the way of the sword, and spar with him. With his life goal in front of him, Zoro's motivation, would have been through the roof.
> 
> It would have been retarded if Luffy grew at the same pace as Zoro, talkless of above him.


Zoro would win against G2/G3 Luffy with mid diff at worst if he pulls off Ashura too 

Hope to see that as sooner as possible

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Zoro would win against G2/G3 Luffy with mid diff at worst if he pulls off Ashura too
> 
> Hope to see that as sooner as possible


By current feats G2/G3 shouldn't push him past high, and that's being generous.
If Zoro's COA > Luffy's COA, Zoro would take it mid.

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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> By current feats G2/G3 shouldn't push him past high, and that's being generous.
> If Zoro's COA > Luffy's COA, Zoro would take it mid.


With Ashura he can almost low diff G2/G3  
Pretty onesided

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 12, 2016)

Zoro doesn't have any feats with CoA which would help us determine his relative level.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Zoro doesn't have any feats with CoA which would help us determine his relative level.


But he has hype.

Oda said he specialised in it.
Mihawk forbade him from touching alcohol until he mastered hardening.
Considering him and Luffy are comparable, he should be better in the COA he specialised in.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> With Ashura he can almost low diff G2/G3
> Pretty onesided


Well Monet "beat" Luffy.
Zoro sodomised Monet.

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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Well Monet "beat" Luffy.
> Zoro sodomised Monet.


Although some PIS was involved Zoro can still beat her easier

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## Raiden34 (May 12, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Doffy can pretty much dodge or block most of Zoro's attacks, and with things like Black Knight, Spider web etc, he can mount a good offense. Not to mention he can heal zoro's cuts if they land.
> 
> There's nothing he can do to doffy.


indeed, the guy who can stitch his internal organs vs. a swordsman , Asura or not, Zoro can't harm him

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 12, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> How about no?
> 
> 
> >_> How to fk is Sanji on par with Zoro when it comes to physical strength?
> ...



Um because Sanji is a monster that's why. I'm talking overall physical strength. If it's just how much you can bench press then of course sanji who only uses his arms for balance and grabbing is weaker in that respect but sanjis legs can easily match up to Zoro's arms. Please post Zoro's best strength feat and I promise you I can show you a strength feat from sanji that's comparable. 

Yes Franky is strong for the tier he is in a tier that is far below sanjis. Franky physical level pre-skip was like 1.5k at best while Sanjis was Jyabura level so over 2000. His strength feats are way better then frankys anyway.

 clashing with Smoker and DD in CQC is a strength feat. If Franky tried to block attacks from smokers juttue he would be sent flying. Law also stopped Doflamingo's overheat and held it in place also a strength feat.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> But he has hype.
> 
> Oda said he specialised in it.
> Mihawk forbade him from touching alcohol until he mastered hardening.
> Considering him and Luffy are comparable, he should be better in the COA he specialised in.



Specialization means it's the category for you personally that you're better at. He could have shit CoO and an average CoA, which would still make him a specialist

Also, Luffy was working on his haki because he saw his own brother die infront of him. That is >>>> Alcoholic Zoro's determination.

On the other hand Law actually has feats of blocking a direct 5CS from Doffy, which even luffy doesn't have.


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## Kaiser (May 12, 2016)

Zoro has pretty good observation haki feats and portrayal. It has been compared to Sanji's(fishmen island, punk hazard) and Law's(Zou) at times, so if he is portrayed that well in an area he doesn't specialize in, gotta shows the implication around the strength of his armament especially when you look at his armament portrayal in dressrosa overall
With that said, Doflamingo still wins. We don't know exactly how strong Zoro is, but Doflamingo is superior to Luffy, so he loses

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Specialization means it's the category for you personally that you're better at. He could have shit CoO and an average CoA, which would still make him a specialist
> 
> Also, Luffy was working on his haki because he saw his own brother die infront of him. That is >>>> Alcoholic Zoro's determination.
> 
> On the other hand Law actually has feats of blocking a direct 5CS from Doffy, which even luffy doesn't have.


Zoro had to master hardening.
Luffy worked on his devil fruit, COA, COC, COO, raw combat skills.

Zoro worked on:

His swordsmanship
COA
COO
He had to master COA to drink alcohol again, and we see him chugging away on FI, meaning his COA met Mihawk's standards.
Zoro also showed that he can hakify his air slashes vs Monet.

Pica believed Zoro couldn't cut him despite watching him bust a Mountain.

Zoro's COA > Pica's COA > Golem

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Kaiser said:


> Zoro has pretty good observation haki feats and portrayal. It has been compared to Sanji's(fishmen island, punk hazard) and Law's(Zou) at times, so if he is portrayed that well in an area he doesn't specialize in, gotta shows the implication around the strength of his armament especially when you look at his armament portrayal in dressrosa overall
> With that said, Doflamingo still wins. We don't know exactly how strong Zoro is, but Doflamingo is superior to Luffy, so he loses


But Zoro can very well be superior to G4less Luffy.

I restricted DD in this matchup.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Please post Zoro's best strength feat and I promise you I can show you a strength feat from sanji that's comparable.


Overpowering tens of thousands of g(gravity tens of thousands of times more than normal gravity), and pushing back an Admiral a metre, with a one armed slash. Of course the Grandmaster was yet to tie on his bandana.

Please how does Sanji compare?

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Um because Sanji is a monster that's why. I'm talking overall physical strength. If it's just how much you can bench press then of course sanji who only uses his arms for balance and grabbing is weaker in that respect but sanjis legs can easily match up to Zoro's arms. Please post Zoro's best strength feat and I promise you I can show you a strength feat from sanji that's comparable.
> 
> Yes Franky is strong for the tier he is in a tier that is far below sanjis. Franky physical level pre-skip was like 1.5k at best while Sanjis was Jyabura level so over 2000. His strength feats are way better then frankys anyway.
> 
> clashing with Smoker and DD in CQC is a strength feat. If Franky tried to block attacks from smokers juttue he would be sent flying. Law also stopped Doflamingo's overheat and held it in place also a strength feat.


Same Law was immobilized by gravity thousands of times weaker than what Zoro faced.

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## Yuki (May 12, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Um because Sanji is a monster that's why. I'm talking overall physical strength. If it's just how much you can bench press then of course sanji who only uses his arms for balance and grabbing is weaker in that respect but sanjis legs can easily match up to Zoro's arms. Please post Zoro's best strength feat and I promise you I can show you a strength feat from sanji that's comparable.
> 
> Yes Franky is strong for the tier he is in a tier that is far below sanjis. Franky physical level pre-skip was like 1.5k at best while Sanjis was Jyabura level so over 2000. His strength feats are way better then frankys anyway.
> 
> clashing with Smoker and DD in CQC is a strength feat. If Franky tried to block attacks from smokers juttue he would be sent flying. Law also stopped Doflamingo's overheat and held it in place also a strength feat.



Guess you have a point. >_>


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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

You should use multiquote man lol
Mods are severe unfortunately

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Zoro had to master hardening.
> Luffy worked on his devil fruit, COA, COC, COO, raw combat skills.
> 
> Zoro worked on:
> ...



Luffy had to master Gear 4. His mastery over his CoA is SOOOO good that he actually managed to combine it with his fruit to alter the elasticity of his rubber.

That fact alone puts him far ahead of zoro. He also blocked Fujitora's blade with his bare Gear 3 enlarged hands.

Pica is also an idiot. Can anyone on that general level block a mountain busting slash without taking significant damage? It's not even about haki, even without haki coating zoro's swords, can anyone really take that amount of damage, who's on that level (zoro, law, luffy, doffy etc's level)

Seriously, does pica believe if you have stronger haki then it won't do any damage and zoro won't be able to cut him? We've seen time and time again that sufficiently strong attacks can pierce haki. Luffy's jet pistols against the boa sisters, Doffy getting crushed by haki attacks from luffy (even though it's highly probable that Doff's haki is stronger)


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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> He also blocked Fujitora's blade with his bare Gear 3 enlarged hands.


He used hardening. Fujitora didn't.

Zoro was able to push Fujitora back, while under extreme gravity. This alone should indicate that Zoro is superior to Fujiora as far as raw strength is concerned.

Luffy blocking the slash of a weaker swordsman, doesn't indicate much against a swordsman of Zoro's caliber. Not saying Zoro is stronger than Fujitora, just that he has more strength.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> indeed, the guy who can stitch his internal organs vs. a swordsman , Asura or not, Zoro can't harm him


By that Logic, Mihawk can't beat DD.

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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> By that Logic, Mihawk can't beat DD.


In fact he can
Both are a bad match up for each other which basically means Mihawk still mid diffs him or so

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Overpowering tens of thousands of g(gravity tens of thousands of times more than normal gravity), and pushing back an Admiral a metre, with a one armed slash. Of course the Grandmaster was yet to tie on his bandana.
> 
> Please how does Sanji compare?



Tens of thousands  so I guess Zoro is Goku level now.

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## Raiden34 (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> By that Logic, Mihawk can't beat DD.


No one said Mihawk should beat DD, I don't even know why he should, DD isn't even a swordsman to begin with.

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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

This dude makes it seem like he thinks Zoro is on par with the Admirals. I sure hope not.


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## Veltpunch (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> That encounter took place over multiple chapters, not just one lol.
> 
> 
> 
> You're not backing up your claims with anything. Swimming and running speed have nothing to do with eachother. especially considering Law can't even swim. Saying "he moves fast with these techniques" when you have nothing to scale it from, equals out to proving nothing.


On one of the previous pages,  Doffy gave chase, as shown in the panel you gave, but not for long as he almost  who he had realized had arrived on the Sunny. Even regarding the chase, Doffy was seemingly more interested in Law's plan than actually chasing him, openly trying to rationalize why he was headed to DR, also shown in the panel you provided. With all that said, this is not a raw sped feat for Law.

Edit: How is moving faster than a fishman *underwater *not impressive? They're clearly slower underwater, so that only speaks for how fast they are on land. Law can't swim so I can't use this valid speed feat? Lol. Technique speeds are fair game as well. Jet Bazooka isn't what makes Luffy fast. Luffy's ability to move that fast is what makes Jet Bazooka what it is. Same with any character unless they're using a DF ability or something to directly increase their speed. Zoro's movement speed during attacks is raw speed.


Peter Pan said:


> Juvia. keep calm, I Always have to do with shit posters but it's just thug life, I'm not referring to Velt, he is good





Peter Pan said:


> Everyone has their defects, take me as example, how many?
> But I'm working on them, give him an hope


Let her throw her fit. Whenever someone disagrees with her view on things, instead of trying to have a healthy debate, she resorts to shit slinging and whining, name-calling like a kid, and I don't mind that, but it's ironic when a person like that deems someone that says "concession accepted" as someone not worth arguing with. It's downright laughable actually. *That's *someone that isn't worth arguing with, so I say let the baby cry. I couldn't care less.

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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Honestly I heard this term since ages in other forums as well and it wasn't so much drama lol

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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> On one of the previous pages,  Doffy gave chase, as shown in the panel you gave, but not for long as he almost  who he had realized had arrived on the Sunny. Even regarding the chase, Doffy was seemingly more interested in Law's plan than actually chasing him, openly trying to rationalize why he was headed to DR, also shown in the panel you provided. With all that said, this is not a raw sped feat for Law.
> 
> Edit: How is moving faster than a fishman *underwater *not impressive? They're clearly slower underwater, so that only speaks for how fast they are on land. Law can't swim so I can't use this valid speed feat? Lol. Technique speeds are fair game as well. Jet Bazooka isn't what makes Luffy fast. Luffy's ability to move that fast is what makes Jet Bazooka what it is. Same with any character unless they're using a DF ability or something to directly increase their speed. Zoro's movement speed during attacks is raw speed.


I give you credit for at least sticking to your argument of "I don't want that to be true so it isn't." 

However, saying Law's feats on Greenbit aren't feats is just your bias showing. You still have yet to provide any panels of Zoro showing raw speed above Law's. 

Are you trying to say that if you're fast underwater that you're also going to be fast on land?


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## Monstar6 (May 12, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Except for the fact that he actually managed to repair multiple internal organs. It just wasn't a single organ. If doffy can proficiently handle stitching something internally, not even in his sights, or without having significant feeling, completely hidden away, an external cut should be a piece of cake.
> 
> Also, Doffy did amputate Law so...
> 
> Many people can self amputate in emergencies as well.




So let's be clear...you still unable to give actual proof that Doffy can stitch externals cuts.

Plus, if it was the case why the fuck he bother using koka when he was grabbing Law's sword? I mean why he didn't just grab it bare hand and stitch himself back after.

I guess it's because he cannot do that so he has to protect his hand from the blade.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 12, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> Plus, if it was the case why the fuck he bother using koka when he was grabbing Law's sword? I mean why he didn't just grab it bare hand and stitch himself back after.
> 
> I guess it's because he cannot do that so he has to protect his hand from the blade.




Because it doesn't heal it. It only minimizes the effect. 

He said time and time again that it isn't healing, but a very effective repair. What's the point of taking a lot of damage and then repairing it to make it less sever, instead of taking little damage which is not severe to begin with?


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## Monstar6 (May 12, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Because it doesn't heal it. It only minimizes the effect.
> 
> He said time and time again that it isn't healing, but a very effective repair. What's the point of taking a lot of damage and then repairing it to make it less sever, instead of taking little damage which is not severe to begin with?



It just a cut on his hand , how a cut on a hand is a heavy damage?
Since when this kind of cut is a problem in the One Piece World especially when you can , apparently, stitch yourself back right after the said cut?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 12, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> It just a cut on his hand , how a cut on a hand is a heavy damage?
> Since when this kind of cut is a problem in the One Piece World especially when you can , apparently, stitch yourself back right after the said cut?



I was speaking in relative terms. 
Taking a hit without CoA IS heavier than without.

So lets put it in terms. 

Grabbing law's sword without his CoA would result in deeper cuts. Might sever the tendons in the fingers. Once the tendons are cut, the hand won't work. Can be stitched back together, but the entire hand won't be at 100% after that (as said by doffy himself) 
Grabbing law's sword with CoA on: Resulting in cuts to the superficial layers alone (skin, sup. fascia). Won't affect the deeper, more functional layers like the joints, tendons, bone or muscle. The hand would be much more likely to be safer, and closer to 100%. 

It's simply the more logical choice. 

Besides, zoro definitely couldn't have beaten Doflamingo even in his state. He basically gave up and decided to push the cage instead of trying to fight Doffy because he knew he was way out of his league.


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## Veltpunch (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> I give you credit for at least sticking to your argument of "I don't want that to be true so it isn't."
> 
> However, saying Law's feats on Greenbit aren't feats is just your bias showing. You still have yet to provide any panels of Zoro showing raw speed above Law's.
> 
> Are you trying to say that if you're fast underwater that you're also going to be fast on land?


And I give you credit for continuously ignoring arguments brought to you.

I literally just showed you why, with scans, the feat that you brought to the table is not a valid feat of *raw speed. *He used his DF to gain the ground that you claimed he had made between him and Doffy by just running. Duffy explicitly says "he used that power again" in the panel. That is not *raw speed. *I've named a few speed feats > anything Law has done in terms of *raw speed. *I'm waiting on you to show me something because what you provided is invalid.

That's exactly what I'm saying because it's true, unless you're talking about fishmen. They prefer the water and are better underwater. Human speed is slowed down underwater.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Tens of thousands  so I guess Zoro is Goku level now.


 I did the calc in my blog

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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I did the calc in my blog


What is it meant by that number?

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> This dude makes it seem like he thinks Zoro is on par with the Admirals. I sure hope not.


No I acknowledge current Zoro won't push G4 Luffy beyond mid/high diff(Depends on the difference between G2/G3 and G4)

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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> No I acknowledge current Zoro won't push G4 Luffy beyond mid/high diff(Depends on the difference between G2/G3 and G4)


The difference between G4 and G2/G3 is like Lucci and Arlong

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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> And I give you credit for continuously ignoring arguments brought to you.
> 
> I literally just showed you why, with scans, the feat that you brought to the table is not a valid feat of *raw speed. *He used his DF to gain the ground that you claimed he had made between him and Doffy by just running. Duffy explicitly says "he used that power again" in the panel. That is not *raw speed. *I've named a few speed feats > anything Law has done in terms of *raw speed. *I'm waiting on you to show me something because what you provided is invalid.
> 
> That's exactly what I'm saying because it's true, unless you're talking about fishmen. They prefer the water and are better underwater. Human speed is slowed down underwater.


He never said "he used that power again" in either of the pages I linked you to. Law was in an open field in the last page, what would he trade places with? Air? Room isn't even up in either of those pages. The only thing you've said for your argument is that Zoro is faster than a fishman underwater and that Shi Shishi Sonson is fast. Are you trying to imply that the average fishman is faster than Law on land? Care to show a panel where Zoro blitzes someone that Law wouldn't be able to do the same to? 

I don't think that's exactly true. If being a fast swimmer automatically means you're also a fast runner; shouldn't someone who completely dominated their sport like Michael Phelps be able to keep up with if not straight up outpace Usain Bolt? I mean...Bolt didn't dominate his sport to the extent that Phelps did after all. Can't say I know how those translate though, not exactly a scientist.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> What is it meant by that number?


Zoro survived a multi city block level attack, and has massive lifting strength, lifting his hand while it weighed tens of thousands of times more than normal.

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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Zoro survived amukti city block level attack, and has massive lifting strength, lifting his hand while it weighed tens of thousands of times more than normal.


Oh you mean compared to a normal guy

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Besides, zoro definitely couldn't have beaten Doflamingo even in his state. He basically gave up and decided to push the cage instead of trying to fight Doffy because he knew he was way out of his league.


Wrong, it's because he has absolute faith in his captain.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> They prefer the water and are better underwater. Human speed is slowed down underwater.


Fastest swimming speed: 2.29 m/s
Fastest running speed: 12.4 m/s

Fishman become twice as fast underwater
Humans become 5.415 times slower underwater.

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## Veltpunch (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> He never said "he used that power again" in either of the pages I linked you to. Law was in an open field in the last page, what would he trade places with? Air? Room isn't even up in either of those pages. The only thing you've said for your argument is that Zoro is faster than a fishman underwater and that Shi Shishi Sonson is fast. *Are you trying to imply that the average fishman is faster than Law on land?* Care to show a panel where Zoro blitzes someone that Law wouldn't be able to do the same to?
> 
> I don't think that's exactly true. If being a fast swimmer automatically means you're also a fast runner; shouldn't someone who completely dominated their sport like Michael Phelps be able to keep up with if not straight up outpace Usain Bolt? I mean...Bolt didn't dominate his sport to the extent that Phelps did after all. Can't say I know how those translate though, not exactly a scientist.


I'm on mobile now. Not about to fool with scans right now, but you obviously know what chapter you linked. Go back to the chapter, go back a page from the first one I linked and boom. He opens room. Then actually look at the one I linked, see that he said, and used, shambles and that he switched himself with a rock, hence why he is no longer at Fuji's foot, but what is? The rock he switched himself with.

To the bold: I'm not entirely sure how you gathered that from what I said...

You've still got feats to show for Law's raw speed. I'll entertain any angle you want to work at after you provide that much.

Edit: Regarding the speed thing, you've got things a little confused. I'm saying Zoro land speed > his speed underwater. That's more than reasonable. Humans are faster running on land than swimming underwater. Your example doesn't really apply here. Anyway, that's just a feat I threw out there. Since you claim you've got something better from Law in terms of raw speed, you e got to show that.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> He never said "he used that power again" in either of the pages I linked you to. Law was in an open field in the last page, what would he trade places with? Air? Room isn't even up in either of those pages.


Law is capable of *teleporting *within his room, and he can make city/small island sized rooms.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Care to show a panel where Zoro blitzes someone that Law wouldn't be able to do the same to?


Pre TS Zoro blitzed Kuma with same Shishi sonson move.

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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> I'm on mobile now. Not about to fool with scans right now, but you obviously know what chapter you linked. Go back to the chapter, go back a page from the first one I linked and boom. He opens room. Then actually look at the one I linked, see that he said, and used, shambles and that he switched himself with a rock, hence why he is no longer at Fuji's foot, but what is? The rock he switched himself with.
> 
> To the bold: I'm not entirely sure how you gathered that from what I said...
> 
> ...


He switched with the rock, then used Shambles again to grab Caesar, then Shambles again to get further ahead. Then Doffy chasing Law is off paneled for a bit. When it returns to Green Bit, Law is physically running from Doffy in an open field. Room is not up at that point. I keep reiterating that point, but you don't seem to read that part I guess. He also physically ran from Fuji's meteor and almost completely dodged it, not to mention the other meteors that were brought down off-panel. Saying he wasn't using foot speed in those instances is nothing but denying facts. 

This debate is literally going nowhere at this rate. I provide panels and you just say they don't count because of reasons that are irrelevant to those scenarios. While you on the other hand, haven't even posted a single panel of Zoro doing something that outclasses Law's speed. Saying Zoro is faster is nothing but an assumption.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Oh you mean compared to a normal guy


Compared to his weight under normal gravity.

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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Law is capable of *teleporting *within his room, and he can make city/small island sized rooms.


Yes island level
He covered PH

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> I'm saying Zoro land speed > his speed underwater. That's more than reasonable. Humans are faster running on land than swimming underwater.


Around 5.415 times faster, while fishman are twice as fast. Shark fishman were noted to be faster(I think), was the Hody Zoro blitzed roided up?

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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Law is capable of *teleporting *within his room, and he can make city/small island sized rooms.


Room wasn't active in either of the pages I posted, and to teleport; he has to trade places with something. He can't just teleport to wherever he wants.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> I'm on mobile now. Not about to fool with scans right now, but you obviously know what chapter you linked. Go back to the chapter, go back a page from the first one I linked and boom. He opens room. Then actually look at the one I linked, see that he said, and used, shambles and that he switched himself with a rock, hence why he is no longer at Fuji's foot, but what is? The rock he switched himself with.
> 
> To the bold: I'm not entirely sure how you gathered that from what I said...
> 
> ...


He also blitzed Kuma and dodged his canons and lasers pre skip.
He mega blitzed monster Hyouzou (didn't see his slashes) who in base casually reacted to a jet pistol.

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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

He can teleport anywhere inside his room actually
but that's it

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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> He can teleport anywhere inside his room actually
> but that's it


No he can't...if he's teleporting himself, he has to trade places with an object. There might be an instance or two where he doesn't trade places with anything, but those are outliers.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> No he can't...if he's teleporting himself, he has to trade places with an object. There might be an instance or two where he doesn't trade places with anything, but those are outliers.


Dafuq? Arbitrarily deciding what's an outlier 
Denying manga as an outlier, seriously?

According to @Veltpunch, Law had room up. Therefore your point is moot.

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## Finalbeta (May 12, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> No he can't...if he's teleporting himself, he has to trade places with an object. There might be an instance or two where he doesn't trade places with anything, but those are outliers.


Which is easy job

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## Jackalinthebox (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Dafuq? Arbitrarily deciding what's an outlier
> Denying manga as an outlier, seriously?
> 
> According to @Veltpunch, Law had room up. Therefore your point is moot.


So 99% of the time Law uses Shambles he trades places with things for the hell of it? That makes about as much sense as your claim of Zoro being faster than G2 Luffy. 

He does not posses word of God, we see on panel from a distance; that there is no Room up at those times. He may be Oda in your eyes, but he's actually not.


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## Yuki (May 12, 2016)

People still arguing with the Vlad level Zoro wanker. 

Just give it up, sooner or later he will be seen just as bad a Vlad and just like Vlad he will be on most peoples ignore lists. 

Just stop lol.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 12, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I did the calc in my blog


Thats nice doe not change what i said.

So i repeat is Zoro Goku now You did the calc so you should know.


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## Imagine (May 13, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Zoro survived a multi city block level attack, and has massive lifting strength, lifting his hand while it weighed tens of thousands of times more than normal.


Which is shit for someone of current Zoro's caliber. Trying to quantify something like that is only going to lead to unimpressive numbers, and trying to use it here as a means to justify Zoro's strength isn't going to impress anyone either.


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## Jackalinthebox (May 13, 2016)

Wtf was Vegeta thinking, training in 500x gravity during the Android saga when Zoro can withstand more than 10,000x Gravity? Crazy shit.


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## Amol (May 13, 2016)

Unrestricted DD mid diffs unrestricted Zoro.
Restricted DD also mid diffs restricted Zoro, possibly low diffs him as DD is bad match up for Zoro considering Zoro can't cut his strings which is entire point of Zoro's fighting style(cutting).
On different note way too much Zoro wanking in this thread.


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## Finalbeta (May 13, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Wtf was Vegeta thinking, training in 500x gravity during the Android saga when Zoro can withstand more than 10,000x Gravity? Crazy shit.


It seems that Zoro > Vegeta

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## Jackalinthebox (May 13, 2016)

I'm still baffled at the fact that some people really think Zoro is both the fastest, and the strongest Straw Hat. Ma boy Luffy's feats say otherwise.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 13, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> I'm still baffled at the fact that some people really think Zoro is both the fastest, and the strongest Straw Hat. Ma boy Luffy's feats say otherwise.



He is probably the most well balanced though.


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## Finalbeta (May 13, 2016)

Luffy surpasses Zoro in both haki and physical strenght

Speed too ofc as well as durability and battle endurance

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## Mr. Good vibes (May 13, 2016)

You know I would of thought that most of you would realized the obvious bias for Zoro in the thread title. Like Zoro needs to be nerfed against a character who basically mid dif Law at worse with those exact restrictions.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 13, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> So 99% of the time Law uses Shambles he trades places with things for the hell of it? That makes about as much sense as your claim of Zoro being faster than G2 Luffy.
> 
> He does not posses word of God, we see on panel from a distance; that there is no Room up at those times. He may be Oda in your eyes, but he's actually not.


I can't see the Manga panel, but he posted a panel in which he claimed Law had room. Look it up, he used the teleportation against Vergo as well IIRC.

My claim of Zoro's attack speed >> G2 Luffy, is backed by Manga.

Base Hyouzou, reacted and countered a G2 Jet Pistol. Monster Hyouzou who was faster than base Hyouzou, got blitzed by Zoro so badly, he couldn't see Zoro's attack.

Źoro's attack speed > G2 Luffy attack speed.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 13, 2016)

No.
Zoro displayed Multi City block durability, and could lift atleast 2000 tons.

Goku is vastly greater.

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## Finalbeta (May 13, 2016)

Current Goku can probably lift the Milky Way while in SSB+KK

In Base he is still at 1000 tons

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## Yuki (May 13, 2016)

Can't even get out of a chimney without his swords.



Pushes down two massive buildings INCLUDING their chimney's with pure strength.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 13, 2016)

Imagine said:


> Which is shit for someone of current Zoro's caliber. Trying to quantify something like that is only going to lead to unimpressive numbers, and trying to use it here as a means to justify Zoro's strength isn't going to impress anyone either.


Well Zoro survived approx 125 times the pressure Sanji faced underwater.

It shows that while under a severe handicap, Zoro ciukd still geberate enough strength to push Fujitora. I was trying to calc the handicap, and in the community I came from, I haf people say


> The pressure Sanji faced underwater, is greater than the little gravity Fujitora put on Zoro.



If Zoro can push back an admiral, while weighing 5250 tons, imagine what he can do under Normal gravity.

Still the best raw strength feat we've  seen from the Straw hats. Law couldn't move and was having breathing difficulty under thousands times less gravity.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 13, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Can't even get out of a chimney without his swords.
> 
> 
> 
> Pushes down two massive buildings INCLUDING their chimney's with pure strength.


Pre Time Skip.
This is post.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 13, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Wtf was Vegeta thinking, training massive  gravity during the Android saga when Zoro can withstand more than 10,000x Gravity? Crazy shit.


I dunno, the gravity required ti raise the weight of air so much that it will make such a deep hole, is tens pf thousands of times greater than normal gravity.

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## Yuki (May 13, 2016)

Juvia. said:


>





Amon Lancelot said:


> Pre Time Skip.
> This is post.



And Luffy punches someone so hard the impact uplifted half a fucking city.

I legit don't give a shit about that stupid ass Hyouzou comparison.

Your comparing a none serious Luffy while he was several meters away from the enemy AFTER punching out a couple other fishmen to a serious Zoro using all 3 swords attacking someone a foot in front of him MULTIPLE TIMES! saying that Zoro's average attack speed >> Luffy's G2 average attack speed because of that and expect to be taken fking seriously.

The gravity Fugi used on Zoro may be viewed as impressive by you, but with someone with a fking brain that acknowledges that Luffy would easily do the same but WITHOUT A RAGED ENERGY SLASH! it's pretty fking simple the feat is barely even fking worth mentioning.

Unless you in fact think Fugi can legit oneshot Luffy with a fking hand wave and Luffy can't do a damn thing about it but then that just makes you a massive Luffy downplayer.

Luffy broke out of parasite, not even Jozu could do that shit.



Amon Lancelot said:


> I dunno, the gravity required ti raise the weight of air so much that it will make such a deep hole, is tens pf thousands of times greater than normal gravity.



And now you think it was the fking air that did the hole.  Omfg some people...


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## Finalbeta (May 13, 2016)

TBH Zoro should be above G2/G3 Luffy, not a question

On the other hand G4 makes look Zoro very tiny

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## Yuki (May 13, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> TBH Zoro should be above G2/G3 Luffy, not a question
> 
> On the other hand G4 makes look Zoro very tiny



Zoro should not be above G2/3 Luffy at all. Even more so if Luffy can indeed use both at once like some here believe. 

Could he be? Of course he could. But he's shown nothing to prove it. He's beaten no one that G2/3 Luffy could not beat also.

Unless you think Luffy needs to exert him self so much to using G4 against Pica.


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## Finalbeta (May 13, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Zoro should not be above G2/3 Luffy at all. Even more so if Luffy can indeed use both at once like some here believe.
> 
> Could he be? Of course he could. But he's shown nothing to prove it. He's beaten no one that G2/3 Luffy could not beat also.
> 
> Unless you think Luffy needs to exert him self so much to using G4 against Pica.


I'm taking Ashura into account, otherwise current Zoro is pretty close to him 
Is Ashura still canon and legit for Zoro to possess?

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## Yuki (May 13, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> I'm taking Ashura into account, otherwise current Zoro is pretty close to him
> Is Ashura still canon and legit for Zoro to possess?



Asura is pre skip. Just like G2/3. Just like G2/3 it's probably been nerfed. IF we ever see it again.

It's not going to be anything to G4+.

He likely has something else however. One or two abilities that have the power of G4. But just like G4, using such abilities will exert Zoro and won't be spammable.

Also, this is what i mean about you changing what you're saying depending on others. Just last page you were saying Zoro mid difs G2/3 Luffy. But after you see pretty much everyone basically lol at the other guy now you're saying Zoro and G2/3 Luffy are close to each other. >_>

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## Finalbeta (May 13, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Asura is pre skip. Just like G2/3. Just like G2/3 it's probably been nerfed. IF we ever see it again.
> 
> It's not going to be anything to G4+.
> 
> ...


I don't remember what I wrote yesterday 
Maybe I thought complete Zoro mid diffing him?

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## Yuki (May 13, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> I don't remember what I wrote yesterday
> Maybe I thought complete Zoro mid diffing him?





Peter Pan said:


> With Ashura he can almost low diff G2/G3
> Pretty onesided



And on the not remembering what you said stuff... just face palm.


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## Finalbeta (May 13, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> And on the not remembering what you said stuff... just face palm.


Yes I think Zoro can mid diff him with Ashura

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## Raiden34 (May 13, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Can't even get out of a chimney without his swords.
> 
> 
> 
> Pushes down two massive buildings INCLUDING their chimney's with pure strength.


This.

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## Yuki (May 13, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Yes I think Zoro can mid diff him with Ashura



Well guess what, he can't. Because Asura isn't a mode and it's a pre skip ability aka shit now.

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## Finalbeta (May 13, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Well guess what, he can't. Because Asura isn't a mode and it's a pre skip ability aka shit now.


 
G2/G3 are preskip mods tho

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## Yuki (May 13, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> G2/G3 are preskip mods tho



Yes they are... and they are kinda shit right now... that's why G4 happened...


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## Finalbeta (May 13, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Yes they are... and they are kinda shit right now... that's why G4 happened...


Well I think that G2/G3 Luffy would mid diff Base Luffy still
I consider Zoro ~ G2/G3 Luffy for current showings 
Going by logic I'd adress mid diff for Ashura Zoro to beat one of 'em

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## Yuki (May 13, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Well I think that G2/G3 Luffy would mid diff Base Luffy still
> I consider Zoro ~ G2/G3 Luffy for current showings
> Going by logic I'd adress mid diff for Ashura Zoro to beat one of 'em



... How the fk would one pre skip attack change a battle from going either way to mid dif... how the fk does that make sense in your head? How the fk did Asura go from being a G3 equivalent attack to mid diffing Luffy using G3 and G2...


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## Finalbeta (May 13, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> ... How the fk would one pre skip attack change a battle from going either way to mid dif... how the fk does that make sense in your head?


Don't know, might overrate Ashura but it totally changed Zoro in that fight imo

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## Yuki (May 13, 2016)

And G2/3 totally changed Luffy in his fights to the point people generally thought pre skip Luffy could beat both Zoro and Sanji at the same time.


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## Finalbeta (May 13, 2016)

In fact I consider G2/G3 about as valid as Asura 

This is my opinion for now

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## Imagine (May 13, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Well Zoro survived approx 125 times the pressure Sanji faced underwater.
> 
> It shows that while under a severe handicap, Zoro ciukd still geberate enough strength to push Fujitora. I was trying to calc the handicap, and in the community I came from, I haf people say
> 
> ...


Which like I said, is shit. Preskip Zoro can move while under 5k tons of gravity. It's not nearly as impressive as you're trying to make it out to be. Law was under an unquantifiable amount. And Zoro's best raw strength feat is cutting up Pica.

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## Veltpunch (May 13, 2016)

Due t how anoying it is on this site to post individual scans, I'm simply going to link the chapters that have what I'm talking about and you can go look for it yourself.


Jackalinthebox said:


> *He switched with the rock, then used Shambles again to grab Caesar, then Shambles again to get further ahead.* Then Doffy chasing Law is off paneled for a bit. When it returns to Green Bit, Law is physically running from Doffy in an open field. Room is not up at that point. I keep reiterating that point, but you don't seem to read that part I guess. He also physically ran from Fuji's meteor and almost completely dodged it, not to mention the other meteors that were brought down off-panel. Saying he wasn't using foot speed in those instances is nothing but denying facts.


First bold: If you agree then why are you still denying that his ability was used?

And we already established that there was a sizable amount of ground that Law covered between he and Doffy (using his ability) before Doffy began following him. Almost immediately after, he spotted the Sunny and went after the SHs. This is seen in this chapter: 

As far as the meteor, for one, you know Fuji wasn't just recklessly spamming meteors or GB would have been destroyed. What you linked was Law avoiding what seamed to be a meteor (of unknown size) and we don't know exactly how he did so. All that panel shows is him rolling out of the way. We also need to take into account that Fuji/Doffy did not want him dead at this point.



> This debate is literally going nowhere at this rate. I provide panels and you just say they don't count because of reasons that are irrelevant to those scenarios. While you on the other hand, haven't even posted a single panel of Zoro doing something that outclasses Law's speed. Saying Zoro is faster is nothing but an assumption.


"Irrelevant." Lol all of the panels that you've shown have been "irrelevant" to showing Law's *raw* speed. That means how fast he is *without* his DF, as was the original argument. I haven't provided panels, but I've named instances that *everyone* knows happened, such as him out-speeding Hody underwater, or any of the times a move like Shishi Sonson has been used. You yourself acknowledged my evidence. While arguing the points, *you* acknowledged that they did indeed happen. Do you really want me to link the Hody feat? I will if you absolutely want me to. The reason I can easily just use the speed he generates from attacks in this argument against Law is because Law has little to no base speed feats, so it is more than fair to assume that characters that have shown impressive speed feats on his tier are faster. Next people will start saying Law is physically stronger than Sanji or Smoker, etc.

And topfuckinLel to anyone running that chimney BS . Dude had a better strength feat way back in Alabasta than breaking that chimney would have been, and it's called *house* chucking while in a near-death state. 

So what does that tell you about your chimney "feat?" O wait, maybe it was...a super chimney?!


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## Veltpunch (May 13, 2016)

Imagine said:


> Which like I said, is shit. Preskip Zoro can move while under 5k tons of gravity. It's not nearly as impressive as you're trying to make it out to be. Law was under an unquantifiable amount. And Zoro's best raw strength feat is cutting up Pica.


Wow...So switch out current Zoro for pre-skip Zoro in that situation. Pre-skip Zoro replicates the same feat?

As "un-quantifiable" as it may be, you can see that it is indeed enough gravity to alter the ground beneath Law, but not enough to create a giant hole in the ground. The amount of gravity used on Zoro was clearly greater. What's more is that he used what he thought to be just enough gravity to physically keep Law at bay, clearly used more force on Zoro, but was unable to keep him pinned despite that. Before someone changes my words, I'm not saying Fuji isn't capable of restraining Zoro, but that with the amount of force he applied at the time, he was unable to.

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 13, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> As "un-quantifiable" as it may be, you can see that it is indeed enough gravity to alter the ground beneath Law, but not enough to create a giant hole in the ground. The amount of gravity used on Zoro was clearly greater. What's more is that he used what he thought to be just enough gravity to physically keep Law at bay, clearly used more force on Zoro, but was unable to keep him pinned despite that. Before someone changes my words, I'm not saying Fuji isn't capable of restraining Zoro, but that with the amount of force he applied at the time, he was unable to.



The ground under Zoro at the colosseum was hollow because of the underground port. 
The ground under Law at green bit was not. 

That's why the ground under zoro broke and he fell down into a hole, but not with law. The gravity may have been equal. 

The same thing was with the King Kong Punch. The ground that Luffy broke by knocking Doffy into it was hollow. Once Doffy landed in the underground port he stopped moving when he hit a hard, not hollow surface.


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## Veltpunch (May 13, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> The ground under Zoro at the colosseum was hollow because of the underground port.
> The ground under Law at green bit was not.
> 
> That's why the ground under zoro broke and he fell down into a hole, but not with law. The gravity may have been equal.
> ...


I don't remember where to find the layouts for DR and the port, but there is still some level of ground between the port (the ceiling) and the floor of DR. Same with when he did the same thing to the grunts of Doffy's crew. IIRC the port was something that was hidden and only discovered towards the end of the arc. Fuji himself made two large holes. If even one of them had lead to the port, he'd have known about it. Regarding Law, wasn't the Dwarve's village right underneath GB? If Fuji were using enough force, you could argue the same thing you're saying that happened in DR could have happened there.

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## Jackalinthebox (May 13, 2016)

Doffy literally says "no mercy huh" in the page with the meteor. We also know he wasn't using his DF because it shows a far away view of the meteor crashing down right before it grazes Law.

When he's running ahead of Doffy in the second page I posted, he's a good deal ahead of him and in an open field. Not only is Room not up, but he's carrying Caesar the whole time; a dude who's pretty damn big. He did use Shambles beforehand, but he had been running for a while since there was nothing around him to trade places with. Law was injured and lacking in stamina during this btw. 

Anyway, there's no point in arguing with someone who thinks Law is slower than Pre-timeskip Zoro. That's too crazy for me to even fathom. The evidence for that is even weaker than D-Rose's knees.


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## Veltpunch (May 13, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Doffy literally says "no mercy huh" in the page with the meteor. We also know he wasn't using his DF because it shows a far away view of the meteor crashing down right before it grazes Law.
> 
> When he's running ahead of Doffy in the second page I posted, he's a good deal ahead of him and in an open field. Not only is Room not up, but he's carrying Caesar the whole time; a dude who's pretty damn big. He did use Shambles beforehand, but he had been running for a while since there was nothing around him to trade places with. Law was injured and lacking in stamina during this btw.
> 
> Anyway, there's no point in arguing with someone who thinks Law is slower than Pre-timeskip Zoro. That's too crazy for me to even fathom. The evidence for that is even weaker than D-Rose's knees.


What chapter does it show the far away view? And he said "no mercy" but you could clearly see that they weren't seriously trying to kill him. This is reinforced by the fact that they captured him alive and when he managed to escape Fuji didn't seem to care.

He cast room before his escape and used Shambles. Do you see how big his Rooms are? You can't tell if it's up while they're showing close ups of the people in the Room, but again, even if he did cancel room (unlikely) he already used it to gain ground. 

When did I say Law was slower than pre-skip Zoro? Zero has used Shishi Sonson post skip. Don't be that guy that switches up people's words.

Next year he'll be an MVP candidate doe.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 13, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> I don't remember where to find the layouts for DR and the port, but there is still some level of ground between the port (the ceiling) and the floor of DR. Same with when he did the same thing to the grunts of Doffy's crew. IIRC the port was something that was hidden and only discovered towards the end of the arc. Fuji himself made two large holes. If even one of them had lead to the port, he'd have known about it. Regarding Law, wasn't the Dwarve's village right underneath GB? If Fuji were using enough force, you could argue the same thing you're saying that happened in DR could have happened there.



Even when Sabo used his mera fruit it went into the underground port. The ground was relatively far thinner, and the lack of support makes it faaaar easier to break. 

Here's a small layout from when Sabo broke the ground in the colossuem: 




The colosseum is the small building above the ground on the left side. Fujitora dropped zoro right outside the colosseum, so the ground definitely was hollow. Which is much easier to break. 



> Regarding Law, wasn't the Dwarve's village right underneath GB? If Fuji were using enough force, you could argue the same thing you're saying that happened in DR could have happened there



I could use that argument, but then I would be wrong. See, for one, the size of the underground city of the dwarves was much much smaller than the hollow made by the underground port. This is because, well the dwarves are tiny, so their city would be too. For example, usopp and Robin couldn't even stand up straight there, it was that small. 

Second, when Fujitora dropped the meteor first time, we saw how deep the ground went, when everything but the pillars law and doffy and fuji were standing on remained. The ground around it got ablated and we got a good look at how deep the pillars went. That was already thicker than the ground above the port. 

Finally, the city of the dwarves was much MUCH deeper located.



so basically, there was far more rock to break through. 

The color image I linked to shows the connection between the dwarf kingdom, and the small underground space under the flower fields. 

The underground space of the flower fields, then connects to the underground port (through a secret passage): 




So as you can see, the area Fujitora broke with zoro is thinner, and has a much bigger hollow underground, which makes it much much easier to break than the ground under law.

As it may stand, the amount of gravity may be equal. 


However, you also need to consider that Fuji wanted to restrain Law. On the other hand he wanted to swat aside zoro. It is possible that the amount of gravity used was less for law, but that is not something you can infer from the amount of bedrock broken, rather from circumstances, and there's nothing to say that Law COULDN'T do the same if put in zoro's situation.


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## Veltpunch (May 13, 2016)

@IchijiNijiSanji Ah, good points. I see what you mean. I still feel as if that was meant to be an impressive strength feat for Zoro, and it should be. There'd need to be proof that Law could do the same in the same situation, though. We have no reason to assume that he could as his strength feats are lacking.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 13, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> @IchijiNijiSanji Ah, good points. I see what you mean. I still feel as if that was meant to be an impressive strength feat for Zoro, and it should be. There'd need to be proof that Law could do the same in the same situation, though. We have no reason to assume that he could as his strength feats are lacking.



That is fair. The more important thing however, for one, is that Law won't use his strength in such a situation, he'd just shambles or use Takt to get out of it. He doesn't really need the raw strength do something.

Second, law did block overheat, without getting knocked back at all. I think that counts for something of a good strength feat. Unless you think the force required to completely stop overheat without moving back is not enough to push through gravity.


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## Jackalinthebox (May 13, 2016)

Top panel of the first page, see how huge that meteorite is? Room would be at least partially visible.

2nd page, bottom panel; you can see the side of the of the island that Law is on. Room is again not up.

Not really associated with the speed argument, but did you really imply Smoker is obviously physically stronger than Law? We already saw them fight in cqc, their strength was on par with one another.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (May 13, 2016)

Smoker was easily overwhelming Law both in speed and in strength

Law was pressured and only make a lucky win by tricking Smoker using a rock

that much effort and luck required to defeat a Vice Admiral...honestly not impressed

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## Jackalinthebox (May 13, 2016)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Smoker was easily overwhelming Law both in speed and in strength
> 
> Law was pressured and only make a lucky win by tricking Smoker using a rock
> 
> that much effort and luck required to defeat a Vice Admiral...honestly not impressed


Where can I purchase this alternate version of the One Piece manga; that you speak of?

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## Amon Lancelot (May 13, 2016)

Juvia said:


> And Luffy punches someone so hard the impact uplifted half a fucking city.
> 
> I legit don't give a shit about that stupid ass Hyouzou comparison.
> 
> ...


It had to be the air. The hole was far too large, for it to have been Zoro's weight.

The Hyouzou pont is still valid, Luffy went on and praised Hyouzou, calling him strong. If the feat was as insignificant as you claim, Luffy won't have praised him. Luffy was dead serious, hjs nakama's(Sanji's) life was at stake. Luffy bow jokes with the life of his nakama.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 13, 2016)

Imagine said:


> Which like I said, is shit. Preskip Zoro can move while under 5k tons of gravity. It's not nearly as impressive as you're trying to make it out to be. Law was under an unquantifiable amount. And Zoro's best raw strength feat is cutting up Pica.


Law's gravity was quantifiable, to only dent the ground so little, it won't pass the tens of g.
Zoro's was in the ten thousands of g.

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## Imagine (May 13, 2016)

Attack potency > AoE


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 13, 2016)

I already tore apart this gravity nonsense. Why the hell is it going on?

Also, why the hell is the calc going on for the amount of pressure the "air" put on the ground? The much more simpler explanation is that the weight of the ground itself was increased by enough that it was past its load bearing capacity and collapsed on under its own weight. 

But nooo! Lets do a calc for the air.


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## Kaiser (May 13, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I already tore apart this gravity nonsense. Why the hell is it going on?


Seeing how the underground port wasn't discovered by the marines, i doubt the gravity hole was created right above that point, maybe somewhere near. Doflamingo was a little farther than Zoro/Kinemon's initial position near the coloseum
Besides if it was the case, it'd make you wonder how Zoro jumped back from that high that quickly

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 13, 2016)

Kaiser said:


> Seeing how the underground port wasn't discovered by the marines, i doubt the gravity hole was created right above that point, maybe somewhere near. Doflamingo was a little farther than Zoro/Kinemon's initial position near the coloseum




Dude... the colosseum is right there... maybe 10m away.




Not to mention, the direction that Doffy and the rest are facing are in is the direction towards the coast/flower hill, where the underground port extends for a much much longer distance.



> Besides if it was the case, it'd make you wonder how Zoro jumped back from that high that quickly



He already fell for a great distance to begin with. Like after he got dropped into the hole there were people talking around and doffy kicked Kinomon and luffy fainted from the kairoseki. Considering the time elapsed, and much larger gravity (not amon lancelot's calc levels, that's ridiculous, but a more reasonable multiplier), he'd have certainly covered a great distanc in falling to begin with. Him jumping it back is reasonable, especially since people in this universe are quite superhuman to begin with.

Not to mention it makes sense that the hole was going deeper than zoro (as we saw based on the panels). It makes sense that he reached a hard, solid (non-hollow) surface which didn't break under the effect of gravity. Otherwise he'd just be falling into an endless pit.


Also, the marines may not have looked down the hole. Not to mention fujitora's senses are sharp enough to detect clouds moving, I doubt he couldn't sense that there was an underground port even without a hole to begin with. It is honestly, just Fujitora being silly like he was for the whole arc.


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## Yuki (May 13, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> It had to be the air. The hole was far too large, for it to have been Zoro's weight.
> 
> The Hyouzou pont is still valid, Luffy went on and praised Hyouzou, calling him strong. If the feat was as insignificant as you claim, Luffy won't have praised him. Luffy was dead serious, hjs nakama's(Sanji's) life was at stake. Luffy bow jokes with the life of his nakama.



No, it was the ground it's self. 

Is it fk valid... it's two completely different circumstances. Put Luffy that close to Hyouzou and make him serious and see what fucking happens to Hyouzou's face when he uses a hawk gatling. Yea, he fucking dies.

Put Zoro at Luffy's distance and make him do a singular small air slash towards Hyouzou after Zoro already did the same thing to 3 other fishmen and see Hyouzou dodge that as well. >_>

Hyouzou is strong, to say otherwise is stupid. But he's nothing compared to the level of the M3.

Using that to say Zoro's attack speed is > Luffy's when Zoro is much much closer and using multiple attacks over and over again is complete BS and you should feel bad.



Amon Lancelot said:


> Prove this.



It has no feats, guess what that means? It gets scaled to what it was pre skip. A G3 equivalent attack.  Zoro just has more than one now.

The burden of proof is on the person saying it's far more powerful than it was before when compared to things that use to be just as powerful as it that also improved.


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## Veltpunch (May 14, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I already tore apart this gravity nonsense. Why the hell is it going on?
> 
> Also, why the hell is the calc going on for the amount of pressure the "air" put on the ground? The much more simpler explanation is that the weight of the ground itself was increased by enough that it was past its load bearing capacity and collapsed on under its own weight.
> 
> But nooo! Lets do a calc for the air.


Honestly, revisiting it,it makes more sense that Zoro was dropped in the vicinity of the port. No matter what way you look at it, if you're right and he definitely was dropped in the port, it makes absolutely no sense that it wasn't discovered at that point, whether it be by Zoro or Fuji. Makes no sense.


Jackalinthebox said:


> Top panel of the first page, see how huge that meteorite is? Room would be at least partially visible.
> 
> 2nd page, bottom panel; you can see the side of the of the island that Law is on. Room is again not up.
> 
> Not really associated with the speed argument, but did you really imply Smoker is obviously physically stronger than Law? We already saw them fight in cqc, their strength was on par with one another.


Top panel shows the AoE, not the meteorite itself, so the question of how big the meteorite was still stands.

Bro, that's already after he used the ability to gain distance between he and Doffy. I proved that he used his DF for that. Room not being there in the shot with Sunny is basically irrelevant because by that point, he had already created the distance. By that point, Doffy had spotted the SHs and changed course. Why would I be arguing that Room was up at that point? I showed you what I meant.

Smoker *is *physically stronger. CQC is a poor gauge of who's stronger because it isn't like both guys are using their full strength with every swing. Zoro clashed swords with Aokiji. Is Zoro as strong? Crocodile clashed with Mihawk. Is he as strong as Mihawk?



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> That is fair. *The more important thing however, for one, is that Law won't use his strength in such a situation, he'd just shambles or use Takt to get out of it. He doesn't really need the raw strength do something.*
> 
> Second, law did block overheat, without getting knocked back at all. I think that counts for something of a good strength feat. Unless you think the force required to completely stop overheat without moving back is not enough to push through gravity.


Exactly. This is why I don't understand why people get so defensive when people say Law's base stats don't stack that well up against people on his tier. He has an ability where he doesn't need Zoro strength or Sanji speed. He does his own thing.

Overheat is tricky for me. IMO, the fact that it got wrapped around Law's sword means Doffy intended as such. If Law just blocked it, it wouldn't have wrapped around his sword. Don't get me wrong, it still takes strength to not be pushed back as you say, but to me, it isn't all that impressive.


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## Yuki (May 14, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Let her throw her fit. Whenever someone disagrees with her view on things, instead of trying to have a healthy debate, she resorts to shit slinging and whining, name-calling like a kid, and I don't mind that, but it's ironic when a person like that deems someone that says "concession accepted" as someone not worth arguing with. It's downright laughable actually. *That's *someone that isn't worth arguing with, so I say let the baby cry. I couldn't care less.



No, i do that when the person i'm arguing with is being stupid. It does not happen all the time. It mostly happens in the One Piece sections however.

Who ever the fk says "concession accepted" is not fking worth arguing with. So many fking retards have said that over and over again when the people they are arguing with just can't put up with their stupidity any longer. It's something you come across a lot during youtube conversations. The only place more cancerous than the OBD followed by the other BDs of NF.

Completely destroy someone when it comes to debates with the other person just not fking getting it. Choose to leave, they say. "Concession accepted."

Post down right proof that the other person is wrong with them clearly just ignoring it. Choose to leave coz it's giving you a headache. They say. "Concession accepted."

Through my 8 years of forums and debates among debates. Only the complete worst of the worst ever say. "Concession accepted." When it's pretty fking clear what the other person intends by their leaving or stopping the debate. In my case it was to slow down the insults so i don't fking get banned again for the 10th time.

You said. "Zoro getting out of the gravity hole is a strength feat above what Luffy has. So it proves Zoro is stronger." Is the same thing as you saying Luffy could not pull off the same thing as such Fugi can legit just fodderize Luffy whenever the heck he pleases with a fking hand wave. When getting out of parasite > Getting out of a small gravity hole from a non serious Fugi.

But hey, today is a new day. So fk all that shit.


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## Jackalinthebox (May 14, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Honestly, revisiting it,it makes more sense that Zoro was dropped in the vicinity of the port. No matter what way you look at it, if you're right and he definitely was dropped in the port, it makes absolutely no sense that it wasn't discovered at that point, whether it be by Zoro or Fuji. Makes no sense.
> Top panel shows the AoE, not the meteorite itself, so the question of how big the meteorite was still stands.
> 
> Bro, that's already after he used the ability to gain distance between he and Doffy. I proved that he used his DF for that. Room not being there in the shot with Sunny is basically irrelevant because by that point, he had already created the distance. By that point, Doffy had spotted the SHs and changed course. Why would I be arguing that Room was up at that point? I showed you what I meant.
> ...


 
The meteor is clearly visible now. That better? 

So did Law create a big distance between him and Doffy or did Doffy immediately start going after the Straw Hats? You're contradicting yourself. Plus, for the millionth time; Law is carrying Caesar while injured and tired and he's in an open field where he would've had to of run for a while because Shambles wouldn't have been an option. 

You're really going to compare a super casual Mihawk and Kuzan to the fight between Law and Smoker? Your examples literally only showed them clashing once, Law and Smoker fought in cqc for an extended period of time on panel. Unless you have proof that Smoker had a death wish and had suddenly decided he didn't give a shit about Tashigi; he was going all out and using all his strength. To say otherwise is being blatantly biased. 

Saying Doffy intended for Law to block Overheat is baseless and downright makes no sense. We don't even know if he aimed for Law or not, there's no way of telling. Besides, what makes you think Doflamingo has the ability to see into the future?


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## Veltpunch (May 14, 2016)

Could you not put words in my mouth?


Jackalinthebox said:


> The meteor is clearly visible now. That better?


Again,that's the AoE of the meteorite.



> So did Law create a big distance between him and Doffy or did Doffy immediately start going after the Straw Hats? You're contradicting yourself. Plus, for the millionth time; Law is carrying Caesar while injured and tired and he's in an open field where he would've had to of run for a while because Shambles wouldn't have been an option.


Lol nope. I'm not contradicting myself. You're either confused, or trying to confuse me. What I said is very clear.
1. He gained space using hid DF (as Doffy explicitly stated)
2. Doffy briefly chased him
3. As this happened, the SHs came into view
4. Doffy completely stopped chasing Law and went after SHs

Pretty straight forward. What are you trying ti get at with Ceaser? Are you alluding to him carrying Ceaser as some miraculous strength feat or something




> You're really going to compare a super casual Mihawk and Kuzan to the fight between Law and Smoker? Your examples literally only showed them clashing once, Law and Smoker fought in cqc for an extended period of time on panel. Unless you have proof that Smoker had a death wish and had suddenly decided he didn't give a shit about Tashigi; he was going all out and using all his strength. To say otherwise is being blatantly biased.


Let me just start by saying that you completely missed my point. Re-read what I said. Anyway, regarding the clashing Zoro vs Kaku. Long CQC batle, but who was physically stronger? Luffy vs DCJ. Extended CQC batle, but who was physically stronger? Zoro vs Ryuma. CQC batle, who was physically stronger? It goes on and on.



> *Saying Doffy intended for Law to block Overheat* is baseless and downright makes no sense. We don't even know if he aimed for Law or not, there's no way of telling. Besides, what makes you think Doflamingo has the ability to see into the future?


Aaaaand when did I say this? I said I think he purposely wrapped the attack around the sword. What could he have done that for? Let's see. He could have tried to take the sword away, tried to stop Law from using it..useful things like that. Lel at the rest of this.

inb4 you put more words in my mouth and/or misconstrue what I actually *did *say, thus creating more pointless points to this argument.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


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## Jackalinthebox (May 14, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Could you not put words in my mouth?
> Again,that's the AoE of the meteorite.
> 
> Lol nope. I'm not contradicting myself. You're either confused, or trying to confuse me. What I said is very clear.
> ...


[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Welp, I guess we both wasted our time. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think Law is faster than Zoro and comparable in strength to Smoker and you think the opposite.


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## Monstar6 (May 14, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I was speaking in relative terms.
> Taking a hit without CoA IS heavier than without.
> 
> So lets put it in terms.
> ...




So let's be clear:
-Dofla cannot heal himself with his strings after a cut.
-A tiny cut at the hand can handicap him even though he can stitch himself back therefore he has to protect his hand to minimize the cut

By your own logic:  Zoro can do some damage to Dofla.

Which totally contradict your first post on this topic:


> _Doffy can pretty much dodge or block most of Zoro's attacks, and with things like Black Knight, Spider web etc, he can mount a good offense. *Not to mention he can heal zoro's cuts if they land.*_
> *
> There's nothing he can do to daffy. *








IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Besides, zoro definitely couldn't have beaten Doflamingo even in his state. He basically gave up and decided to push the cage instead of trying to fight Doffy because he knew he was way out of his league.



So let's be clear:
-Zoro gave up on attacking a weakened Doffy even though he didn't know Doffy's state or Doffy's whereabout
-Zoro was eager to fight a fresh Fujitora even though he is an admiral and Zoro already have 2 scuffles with him 

By your own logic : Weakened Dofla > Fresh Fujitora.

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## Finalbeta (May 14, 2016)

Tbh we are just going insanely off topic

In the end Doffy wins this fight 10/10

Nothing to debate unless you are a Zolo wanker

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## Yuki (May 14, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> So let's be clear:
> -Dofla cannot heal himself with his strings after a cut.
> -A tiny cut at the hand can handicap him even though he can stitch himself back therefore he has to protect his hand to minimize the cut
> 
> ...



Only a complete idiot can think that someone who can stitch together complicated and vital organs cannot stitch together two layers of outer skin.

That feat that shows DD can do so is merely by the fact he did a much more complicated surgery without eye sight.

Honestly it's like asking for a feat that someone can lift 100 pound weights when they just lifted a 1000...

They automatically get the feat by DOING SOMETHING FAR HARDER!

DD can stich his arm back on if he loses it, he can stwitch two layers of skin back together, by the mere fact he can stitch his liver together back into working condition WITHOUT FKING SIGHT! after it being completely fking shredded...

He attached his clones head back onto it's shoulders after it was removed.

Well guess what? The same thing would happen if his real leg got cut off. He would reattach the leg like he did the clones head and then do all the more complicated stuff just like he fixed his fking organs...

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## Finalbeta (May 14, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Only a complete idiot can think that someone who can stitch together complicated and vital organs cannot stitch together two layers of outer skin.
> 
> That feat that shows DD can do so is merely by the fact he did a much more complicated surgery without eye sight.
> 
> ...


It's the flawless tard logic of a feats tard

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## Yuki (May 14, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> It's the flawless tard logic of a feats tard



No it's not, it's far worse.

When someone gets a feat for doing something far harder than something else they don't have the feat for, they automatically get the feat for that as well. It's simple ass logic that should never need discussion.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 14, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> So let's be clear:
> -Dofla cannot heal himself with his strings after a cut.
> -A tiny cut at the hand can handicap him even though he can stitch himself back therefore he has to protect his hand to minimize the cut
> 
> ...



See.... you keep making this mistake about interpreting what I'm saying.
-I've already said, time and time again that doffy's strings don't heal.
-You call gripping a sword with all you strength a "tiny cut", even though I've explained that it would reduce the functional aspect of his hand if the tendons get cut. With using haki, the cut won't be deep enough to cut the tendons. The strength and functionality of his hand may be reduced to 90% if his tendons were cut even if he stitched it back. With haki, only the superficial layers would get cut. The functional aspect of his hand would still be at 100% since the wound would only be skin deep. Not to mention using Koka+Stitching would be the most effective of them all. 
- I was talking about minimizing the damage. Minimizing. This is a man who came back from the bring of death with his strings. I'd say there's a fairly good effect size of him being able to reduce the damage. I admit, I made a mistake with the wording in the first post, but I have far since rectified the "healing" vs "repairing" terminology.



> So let's be clear:
> -Zoro gave up on attacking a weakened Doffy even though he didn't know Doffy's state or Doffy's whereabout
> -Zoro was eager to fight a fresh Fujitora even though he is an admiral and Zoro already have 2 scuffleswith him



Considering fujitora, as seen by zoro's own eyes, was taking it easy on the pirates he met at the gambling house, time and time again, he is definitely of a lower threat that someone weaker who kills straight up.
I would say yes, a holding back Fujitora is less of a threat than Doflamingo (who is perpetually bloodlusted)


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 14, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Honestly, revisiting it,it makes more sense that Zoro was dropped in the vicinity of the port. No matter what way you look at it, if you're right and he definitely was dropped in the port, it makes absolutely no sense that it wasn't discovered at that point, whether it be by Zoro or Fuji. Makes no sense.



For one. The map shows where exactly zoro was dropped. It was right above the port. And considering the colosseum was facing the flower fields where they were talking, it was under the portion where there's no doubt the port was underneath, because the majority of the stretch of the port was right there.

Second: How do you know fujitora weren't aware of the location already? When DID the marines discover the underground port? (refresh my memory here)

I mean, fujitora is a guy who can sense clouds moving and also detect where the rubble was around the country to pinpoint precisely lift it up. How would he not know that there was an underground port? And even if zoro may have seen it, I doubt it'd be of interest to him. There was an important fight going on up. He may have been just focused on getting back up.


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## Finalbeta (May 14, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> No it's not, it's far worse.
> 
> When someone gets a feat for doing something far harder than something else they don't have the feat for, they automatically get the feat for that as well. It's simple ass logic that should never need discussion.


Stupidity? 
It was implied

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## Monstar6 (May 14, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> See.... you keep making this mistake about interpreting what I'm saying.
> -I've already said, time and time again that doffy's strings don't heal.
> -You call gripping a sword with all you strength a "tiny cut", even though I've explained that it would reduce the functional aspect of his hand if the tendons get cut. With using haki, the cut won't be deep enough to cut the tendons. The strength and functionality of his hand may be reduced to 90% if his tendons were cut even if he stitched it back. With haki, only the superficial layers would get cut. The functional aspect of his hand would still be at 100% since the wound would only be skin deep. Not to mention using Koka+Stitching would be the most effective of them all.
> - I was talking about minimizing the damage. Minimizing. This is a man who came back from the bring of death with his strings. I'd say there's a fairly good effect size of him being able to reduce the damage. I admit, I made a mistake with the wording in the first post, but I have far since rectified the "healing" vs "repairing" terminology.




So we agree that Zoro will be able to do some damage to Dofla ?
Because if he  took some damage for just grabbing Law's sword even though he was using koka , he can took a lot with a "Shi shish sonson" for example.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Considering fujitora, as seen by zoro's own eyes, was taking it easy on the pirates he met at the gambling house, time and time again, he is definitely of a lower threat that someone weaker who kills straight up.
> I would say yes, a holding back Fujitora is less of a threat than Doflamingo (who is perpetually bloodlusted)



So Zoro was eager to fight Fujitora because he thought that Fujitora would have go easy on him? Really?
I mean this completely out of Zoro's character.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 14, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> So we agree that Zoro will be able to do some damage to Dofla ?
> Because if he  took some damage for just grabbing Law's sword even though he was using koka , he can took a lot with a "Shi shish sonson" for example.



I already said he'd be able to do some damage IF (and only if) he connects. Just that it would be minimized significantly. That much is clear.




> So Zoro was eager to fight Fujitora because he thought that Fujitora would have go easy on him? Really?
> I mean this completely out of Zoro's character.



Preskip zoro isn't post skip zoro. After all, he trained with mihawk, who would've taught him the merits of living to fight another day. Not to mention, he just wanted to test his strength. What better way to test his strength against someone who wouldn't kill him, but is capable of doing so? Not to mention, against doflamingo he would likely end up being a liability.


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## Raiden34 (May 14, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Preskip zoro isn't post skip zoro. After all, he trained with mihawk, who would've taught him the merits of living to fight another day. Not to mention, he just wanted to test his strength. What better way to test his strength against someone who wouldn't kill him, but is capable of doing so? Not to mention, against doflamingo he would likely end up being a liability.


Indeed, Zoro learn to run from Mihawk when it comes to. Just like Mihawk was running from Vista, Crocodile, Jozu etc.

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## Monstar6 (May 14, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I already said he'd be able to do some damage IF (and only if) he connects. Just that it would be minimized significantly. That much is clear.



I don't see why he wouldn't connect. Law , G2 Luffy  and Sanji touched him. Same thing will happen with Zoro.




IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Preskip zoro isn't post skip zoro. After all, he trained with mihawk, who would've taught him the merits of living to fight another day. Not to mention, he just wanted to test his strength. What better way to test his strength against someone who wouldn't kill him, but is capable of doing so? Not to mention, against doflamingo he would likely end up being a liability.




Nope ,on this trait, it's the same Zoro.
This is why he was laughing when Luffy provoked Big mom : 
And why he was happy to fight an emperor after hearing Law's plan:


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 14, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> I don't see why he wouldn't connect. Law , G2 Luffy  and Sanji touched him. Same thing will happen with Zoro.



Law connected because of trickery. 
G2 Luffy only connected Post gamma knife and pre gamma knife only with law's help.  
Sanji never got a good hit in. He got blocked. 





> Nope ,on this trait, it's the same Zoro.
> This is why he was laughing when Luffy provoked Big mom :
> And why he was happy to fight an emperor after hearing Law's plan:



No. He expected there to be a plan for kaido, or some far away thing for Big Mam. First of all he didn't even know when Luffy started talking to big mom that she'd end up targetting him by the end of the conversation. He was laughing at his bullheadednes, not the consequences it would bear

When it came right on top of his head, he began panicking when he heard about sanji's debacle and doing a risk analysis. Old zoro would've been more like Luffy in that situation.


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## Monstar6 (May 14, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Law connected because of trickery.


False: 



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> G2 Luffy only connected Post gamma knife and pre gamma knife only with law's help.
> Sanji never got a good hit in. He got blocked.



If Dofla try to block Zoro the same way he did with Sanji and Luffy he pretty much lose his leg or his arm.
If they were able to touch him (block or not) i don't see why Zoro could not






IchijiNijiSanji said:


> No. He expected there to be a plan for kaido, or some far away thing for Big Mam.



He never stated something like this.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> First of all he didn't even know when Luffy started talking to big mom that she'd end up targetting him by the end of the conversation. He was laughing at his bullheadednes, not the consequences it would bear



Zoro, like the other strawhats, know Luffy very well therefore he knew how this would have ended and he was laughing.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> When it came right on top of his head, he began panicking when he heard about sanji's debacle and doing a risk analysis. Old zoro would've been more like Luffy in that situation.



He never panicked (or it's another mistake in the wording? ) he was just stating fact and be a bit unfair with Sanji.

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## Etherborn (May 14, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Location: Dressrosa before the battle
> Distance: 10 metres
> Mindset: In Character
> Restrictions (Zoro): Nittoryuu and Asura
> ...



Your restrictions for Zoro are:

1. Something he doesn't even rely that heavily on, unless you mean he can only use one sword.
2. Something he hasn't even shown post-timeskip.

Whereas for Doffy you restricted:

1. His most hax move.
2. His other most hax move.
3. His most hax set of moves.

Obviously Doffy is going to need high diff at least for this.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 14, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> False:



Okay. Barely got a scratch in.



> If Dofla try to block Zoro the same way he did with Sanji and Luffy he pretty much lose his leg or his arm.



Doubt it. His haki is way too good to get cut up like that. For example even luffy and law can now block sharp attacks and Doffy's haki is much  stronger than theirs. If he can take Gear 4 strikes without having his bones cracked and fractured, he's not going to get cut up.

And no, Law's sword making him bleed was from his own grip strength. Otherwise you'd have to make the case that Law>Doffy, because in the next panel his 5CS didn't make Law bleed.

Not to mention, if Doffy plays it smart and goes airborne, there'd be even less of a chance of him being able to touch doffy. In ranged battle I'd side with solid string projectiles instead of  compressed air projectiles.




> He never stated something like this.



He explained his plan already. Obviously if there is a reasonable plan he'd be more on board instead of going gung ho. It doesn't need an explanation.



> Zoro, like the other strawhats, know Luffy very well therefore he knew how this would have ended and he was laughing.



There is absolutely no way of being able to say where it would go without zoro knowing big mom's personality. She could've very well have been impressed by his resolve and nobility instead of targetting him, like Mihawk himself was impressed by zoro's impudent behaviour and resolve, even when he asked him to train him to beat him. Whitebeard also didn't oneshot luffy when he was getting fresh with him.



> He never panicked (or it's another mistake in the wording? ) he was just stating fact and be a bit unfair with Sanji.



No mistake. He was worried. If he wasn't he'd be like "Yeee bring it one aww yiss"

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Monstar6 (May 14, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Okay. Barely got a scratch in.



Still connect.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Doubt it. His haki is way too good to get cut up like that. For example even luffy and law can now block sharp attacks and Doffy's haki is much  stronger than theirs. If he can take Gear 4 strikes without having his bones cracked and fractured, he's not going to get cut up.



The fact that you doubt it is not important.
The fact is grabbing Law's sword make him bleed even though he used koka therefore there is no reasons to think that Zoro will be unable to hurt him when he will (because he will ) connect a "Shi Shishi sonson" for example.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> And no, Law's sword making him bleed was from his own grip strength. Otherwise you'd have to make the case that Law>Doffy, because in the next panel his 5CS didn't make Law bleed.



I don't have to make that case because this not how power level in One Piece works.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Not to mention, if Doffy plays it smart and goes airborne, there'd be even less of a chance of him being able to touch doffy. In ranged battle I'd side with solid string projectiles instead of  compressed air projectiles.



You mean the solid string projectiles that was easily dispatch by Cavendish?
Dofla lose more than Zoro if he goes airborne.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> He explained his plan already. Obviously if there is a reasonable plan he'd be more on board instead of going gung ho. It doesn't need an explanation.



Not a this time. Law explained his plan after that. At that moment the only thing Zoro knew was that Luffy made an alliance with Law to take down the yonko and he was smiling.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> There is absolutely no way of being able to say where it would go without zoro knowing big mom's personality. She could've very well have been impressed by his resolve and nobility instead of targetting him, like Mihawk himself was impressed by zoro's impudent behaviour and resolve, even when he asked him to train him to beat him. Whitebeard also didn't oneshot luffy when he was getting fresh with him.



This not about Big Mom but about Luffy behavior.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> No mistake. He was worried. If he wasn't he'd be like "Yeee bring it one aww yiss"



He was not worried, he was just stating fact and be a bit unfair with Sanji.

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 14, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> .
> I don't have to make that case because this not how power level in One Piece works.



So how does it work?






> You mean the solid string projectiles that was easily dispatch by Cavendish?
> Dofla lose more than Zoro if he goes airborne.



Yeah, I mean the solid string projectiles would beat the air projectiles which were easily blocked by hody jones' holding a fodder subordinate infront of him. 




> Not a this time. Law explained his plan after that. At that moment the only thing Zoro knew was that Luffy made an alliance with Law to take down the yonko and he was smiling.



Law may have gone into details after that, but Luffy told them to gather around, then there was a small time skip, after which they showed their reaction. Based on that, we know that Luffy told them what he knew, that they're targetting the kaido yonko and that they have a plan with 30% chance of victory. So from that much, Zoro should be aware that there is a reasonable plan. 



> This not about Big Mom but about Luffy behavior.



Yes it is about big mom. You brought  her up to begin with and suddenly it's not about her?



> He was not worried, he was just stating fact and be a bit unfair with Sanji.



He was being unfair because he was worried. His veins were standing up, and he was explaining that because he was worried. There's no reason to bring it up to begin with, unless he was concerned.

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## Monstar6 (May 14, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> So how does it work?



It's not because a character is overall stronger than an other that he is stronger in every departement.
This is why, for example, in Amazon Lilly, Marie Gold has a better CoA than Luffy but was far weaker than him.





IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Yeah, I mean the solid string projectiles would beat the air projectiles which were easily blocked by hody jones' holding a fodder subordinate infront of him.



Because the unique long range attack that Zoro have is "Yakkoudori"? Because Cavendish can easily dispatch "Tomaito" but Zoro can't?




IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Law may have gone into details after that, but Luffy told them to gather around, then there was a small time skip, after which they showed their reaction. Based on that, we know that Luffy told them what he knew, that they're targetting the kaido yonko and that they have a plan with 30% chance of victory. So from that much, Zoro should be aware that there is a reasonable plan.



There's absolutely no timeskip between the two panels.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Yes it is about big mom. You brought  her up to begin with and suddenly it's not about her?



No it's about Luffy way of acting. No matter how Big Mom will react, Zoro knew that Luffy will be reckless which mean conflict but he was smiling nonetheless.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> He was being unfair because he was worried. His veins were standing up, and he was explaining that because he was worried. There's no reason to bring it up to begin with, unless he was concerned.



He was not worried, he was angry of Sanji's carelessness and selfishness.[/QUOTE]

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 14, 2016)

Monstar6 said:


> It's not because a character is overall stronger than an other that he is stronger in every departement.
> This is why, for example, in Amazon Lilly, Marie Gold has a better CoA than Luffy but was far weaker than him.



That isn't applicable in this case, however. 





> Because the unique long range attack that Zoro have is "Yakkoudori"? Because Cavendish can easily dispatch "Tomaito" but Zoro can't?



See, zoro would be able to, but he'd be put on the defensive. Doflamingo's attacks like overheat, tamaito, break white, black knight, combined with his defense of Spider web would put zoro on the defense perpetually through the fight. 




> There's absolutely no timeskip between the two panels.



There is. Before: "Alright everyone gather around". After "We're making an alliance to take down the emperors?????" 

Asked as a question. Hence, it was a reaction of shock on what luffy said during the mini skip. 



> No it's about Luffy way of acting. No matter how Big Mom will react, Zoro knew that Luffy will be reckless which mean conflict but he was smiling nonetheless.



Conflict? How many top tiers have they got into conflict with upto that point because of being "reckless" and talking to them like that? Statistically, almost every top tier upto that point acknowledged and respected their resolve and thought their actions worthy and didn't antagonize. Mihawk being the biggest example. 



> He was not worried, he was angry of Sanji's carelessness and selfishness.



If he wasn't, he'd have been laughing. For example, like you just pointed out, in the Big Mom situation he wasn't aware how she'd react so he could blithely laugh at luffy's recklessness, but now that he knows that they're actually coming for them he's filling his pants from concern because of sanji's recklessness. The difference in the two situations is his awareness of the consequences that the actions of luffy/sanji brought upon him.

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## HisMajestyMihawk (May 14, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Indeed, Zoro learn to run from Mihawk



Kuma should have sent Zoro to train with Blackbeard then  He is the master of running 

-run from Ace for most of preskip 
-run from Akainu even with entire crew 
-run from Spandam

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## Etherborn (May 15, 2016)

Blackbeard should be Usopp's EoS opponent instead of Van Auger.

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## NUMBA1TROLL (May 15, 2016)

Zoro gets beat, low end of mid diff.

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## giantbiceps (May 15, 2016)

So the general consensus is Doffy low-mid diff. There is still hope for OL

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## Veltpunch (May 15, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> For one. The map shows where exactly zoro was dropped. It was right above the port. And considering the colosseum was facing the flower fields where they were talking, it was under the portion where there's no doubt the port was underneath, because the majority of the stretch of the port was right there.
> 
> Second: How do you know fujitora weren't aware of the location already? When DID the marines discover the underground port? (refresh my memory here)
> 
> I mean, fujitora is a guy who can sense clouds moving and also detect where the rubble was around the country to pinpoint precisely lift it up. How would he not know that there was an underground port? And even if zoro may have seen it, I doubt it'd be of interest to him. There was an important fight going on up. He may have been just focused on getting back up.


And yet the port remained un-discovered. Maybe Fujitora knew about it, but the marines did not, despite two giant holes being torn through the ground by Fujitora. None of Doffy's subordinates seemed alarmed that their super secret port had a super large hole torn into it. In fact, Doffy, who was right there didn't seem alarmed either. All of that gives me sufficient reason to doubt.

Also, you're wrong about Zoro's character and only have no base to the "Mihawk would have taught him..." bit. Now, I'm not someone that's made a HUGE deal of Zork's encounters with Fuji in DR (clearly Fuji wasn't taking anything in DR seriously) but they were impressive, especially considering what an equally as casual Doffy did to Sanji, whose supposed to be close in strength to him. At the end of the day, Zoro is eager to fight the Yonkou, he was eager to fight an Admiral, who to his knowledge, has no reason to spare him. Zero and Luffy have always been alike in regards to them not backing down from anyone, I mean come on. Is it cool to not respek Zoro's name now? Slower than Law (lol), fears mean little to nothing (lol) and now he's a coward (lol). What's next?

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 16, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> And yet the port remained un-discovered. Maybe Fujitora knew about it, but the marines did not, despite two giant holes being torn through the ground by Fujitora. None of Doffy's subordinates seemed alarmed that their super secret port had a super large hole torn into it. In fact, Doffy, who was right there didn't seem alarmed either. All of that gives me sufficient reason to doubt.



I asked you something. Can you tell me when they (the marines) discovered the port?

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## Veltpunch (May 16, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I asked you something. Can you tell me when they (the marines) discovered the port?


I want to know the relevance before I take the time to read through the last chapters of DR. As far as I'm concerned, the port was not known of at the time of the confrontation by the marines, and I doubt Doffy knew of Fuji knew (something we don't even know he did) prior. So where does this info fit?

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 16, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> I want to know the relevance before I take the time to read through the last chapters of DR. As far as I'm concerned, the port was not known of at the time of the confrontation by the marines, and I doubt Doffy knew of Fuji knew (something we don't even know he did) prior. So where does this info fit?



The point is, there is a good chance the marines already knew that the port was there. Think about it, Doflamingo's dirty business was probably no secret to the marines. Sengoku knew about it. Who is to say that they didn't already know about the existence of a port underneath, but were turning a blind eye on it, as is Shichibukai privilege?

I mean, geographically speaking, zoro and fuji were RIGHT above the basement. 

So I suppose the thing to be proved here is the marines showing shock, or indicating that they didn't know of the existence of the port. For example, rebecca said she didn't know there was a basement under the colosseum unitl sabo revealed it.

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## Veltpunch (May 16, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> The point is, there is a good chance the marines already knew that the port was there. Think about it, Doflamingo's dirty business was probably no secret to the marines. Sengoku knew about it. Who is to say that they didn't already know about the existence of a port underneath, but were turning a blind eye on it, as is Shichibukai privilege?
> 
> I mean, geographically speaking, zoro and fuji were RIGHT above the basement.
> 
> So I suppose the thing to be proved here is the marines showing shock, or indicating that they didn't know of the existence of the port. For example, rebecca said she didn't know there was a basement under the colosseum unitl sabo revealed it.


We would have been told of they were turning a blind eye, like how they revealed they were doing as such with the auction house. No matter what way you look at it, it's suspect that Zoro didn't notice it. It's suspect that no one from Doffy's crew, including himself, or people working in the port noticed or seemed alarmed by a big ass-hole just suddenly ripping trough the ceiling of their super secret port. There's no evidence, as far as I know, that points to the marines knowing prior. Also, I highly doubt that the WG, especially not while on Sakazuki's watch, would turn a blind eye to someone directly aiding in making a Yonkou crew stronger.

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 17, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> We would have been told of they were turning a blind eye, like how they revealed they were doing as such with the auction house. No matter what way you look at it, it's suspect that Zoro didn't notice it. It's suspect that no one from Doffy's crew, including himself, or people working in the port noticed or seemed alarmed by a big ass-hole just suddenly ripping trough the ceiling of their super secret port. There's no evidence, as far as I know, that points to the marines knowing prior. Also, I highly doubt that the WG, especially not while on Sakazuki's watch, would turn a blind eye to someone directly aiding in making a Yonkou crew stronger.



Fujitora already told doflamingo that he had reliable sources tell him that he wasn't following the rules. On top of that Caesar clown was screaming "Joker Joker Joker" on top of his lungs which is doflamingo's code name, which Fujitora pointed out as well. And beyond all that, Smoker's report (which I believe was fuji's source) exists as well, which would tell akainu about doffy's code name and his SAD dealings. All of these would warrant a search, and it's likely they knew already about the port. From talking to law, Smoker's report gave full information about Doffy and him aiding making a Yonko stronger.

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## Veltpunch (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Fujitora already told doflamingo that he had reliable sources tell him that he wasn't following the rules. On top of that Caesar clown was screaming "Joker Joker Joker" on top of his lungs which is doflamingo's code name, which Fujitora pointed out as well. And beyond all that, Smoker's report (which I believe was fuji's source) exists as well, which would tell akainu about doffy's code name and his SAD dealings. All of these would warrant a search, and it's likely they knew already about the port. From talking to law, Smoker's report gave full information about Doffy and him aiding making a Yonko stronger.


"I can't back it up with hard evidence, but..." I'd say a secret trading port is hard evidence. This proves they didn't know about the port. And just how much could Smoker's report tell him? The port in DR would not be in Smoker's report on PH. He hasn't been to DR to know about a port. IIRC, the extent of Smoker's knowledge was CC --> DD relationship, not DD --> Kaidou. In the process of fact checking and I'll edit depending on what I find. Still no sign that the Marines knew about the port, and no evidence of them turning a blind eye since it seems like they didn't know about the port itself.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> Your restrictions for Zoro are:
> 
> 1. Something he doesn't even rely that heavily on, unless you mean he can only use one sword.
> 2. Something he hasn't even shown post-timeskip.
> ...


I wanted to give Zoro a fighting chance.
Zoro hasn't gone all out, so to make it fair, I restricted Zoro to current Zoro, and restricted Doffy equally(I think)

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## Beast (May 17, 2016)

The heavenly demon loses to the ground hunter while airborne more times than not?


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> he's not going to get cut up.


Only true, if you can prove Luffy/Law COA 》Zoro's COA.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Otherwise you'd have to make the case that Law>Doffy,


Asinine, just because Law is superior to Doffy in one aspect, doesn't make him superior overall.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> And no, Law's sword making him bleed was from his own grip strength.


Your do know, that your making Doffy's COA look really shitty with that statement right?

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## Beast (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Only true, if you can prove Luffy/Law COA 》Zoro's COA.


Doesn't work like that dude.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> compressed air projectiles.


These projectiles, are enough to overcome tens if thousands of gravity and still push back Fujitora a marine Admiral mind you, who's also 》Doffy. All this was at only one-third power from bandanaless Zoro.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Obviously if there is a reasonable plan he'd be more on board instead of going gung ho.


Zoro was asking Luffy to "tag" him in against Fujitora, while they should have been running for their lives.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> No mistake. He was worried. If he wasn't he'd be like "Yeee bring it one aww yiss"

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> which were easily blocked by hody jones' holding a fodder subordinate infront of him.


That was a fodder move from a very casual Zoro. When Zoro was serious, he pushed Fujitora back a metre, under tens of thousands of gravity(without his bandana mind you), and was casually mountain busting.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> That isn't applicable in this case, however.


Wrong, it is.
Burden of proof is on you, to prove that Law COA > Doflamingo's COA implies Law > Doffy.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> See, zoro would be able to, but he'd be put on the defensive. Doflamingo's attacks like overheat, tamaito, break white, black knight, combined with his defense of Spider web would put zoro on the defense perpetually through the fight.


But Kuma's pad canons which were far faster, couldn't keep Pre TS Zoro on the defensive throughout the fight.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> (clearly Fuji wasn't taking anything in DR seriously)


Fujitora was as serious against Zoro as he was against Sabo, nothing implies otherwise.

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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Doflamingo's COA shits on Law's


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> And yet the port remained un-discovered. Maybe Fujitora knew about it, but the marines did not, despite two giant holes being torn through the ground by Fujitora. None of Doffy's subordinates seemed alarmed that their super secret port had a super large hole torn into it. In fact, Doffy, who was right there didn't seem alarmed either. All of that gives me sufficient reason to doubt.


His entire argument about the hollow ground is a very weak one. He's trying to deny that Zoro 》》》Law in physical strength, from their performance under Fujitora's gravity.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I asked you something. Can you tell me when they (the marines) discovered the port?


The burden of proof is on you to prove that the ground was hollow.

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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> His entire argument about the hollow ground is a very weak one. He's trying to deny that Zoro 》》》Law in physical strength, from their performance under Fujitora's gravity.


Law would get his arm broken by Zoro in arm wrestling

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Doesn't work like that dude.


How does it work then?

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## Jackalinthebox (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Fujitora was as serious against Zoro as he was against Sabo, nothing implies otherwise.


Did Fuji bring down any meteors when fighting Zoro? Nope.
Did Fuji use any named attacks when fighting Zoro? Nope.
Did Fuji and Zoro's battle cause anywhere near the environmental destruction that Sabo's did? Nope


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Did Fuji bring down any meteors when fighting Zoro? Nope.


Did he while fighting Sabo?

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## Jackalinthebox (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Did he while fighting Sabo?


It was the very first thing he did. Sabo dodged it, though he didn't need to.


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Did he while fighting Sabo?


Also they deny that Fujitora didn't at least try to put Zolo down

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## Beast (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> How does it work then?


The burden of proof is on you to show how zoro's BH is somehow better than that of luffy or law's despite having minimal feats against Pica who is Trebol level. 

The double posting is annoying as he'll as well, just edit one of your posts instead of trying to post 10 different 1 liners.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Did Fuji use any named attacks when fighting Zoro? Nope.


Fujitora has only used one named attack IIRC. The location they were fighting in, it wasn't in his best interests to pull out "Ferocious Tiger". Doesn't mean he wasn't serious.

Fuji and Zoro had an off panel battle later, we don't know how it went down.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Pica who is Trebol level.


Prove Pica is Trebol level.

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## Beast (May 17, 2016)

Never mind dude... carry on with whatever it is you're doing.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> just edit one of your posts instead of trying to post 10 different 1 liners.


I'm on phone, it's very inconvenient to do that, especially when quoting.


MasterBeast said:


> The burden of proof is on you to show how zoro's BH is somehow better than that of luffy or law's


Did I ever state this. I do have evidence to back up that position though.


Jackalinthebox said:


> Did Fuji and Zoro's battle cause anywhere near the environmental destruction that Sabo's did? Nope


Did you know that making a hplease that deep, required raising the gravitational force, to tens of thousands of times what it is normally. Just by that feat alone, Zoro gets multi-city block to town level durability(depending on the length of time for which he was exposed to the attack).

Furthermore, Fuji and Zoro had an off panel battle later, we don't know how it went down

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## Jackalinthebox (May 17, 2016)

I'm not a big fan of calcs, but mcb level durability is nothing special at this point in OP. Sabo's casual af Hiken was small city level for instance.


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Prove Pica is Trebol level.



Until you learn how the burden of proof works, you should really stop saying that shit... Coz 90% of the time it's you who needs to prove shit. Everyone does not havwe to prove you wrong with panals and feats when you barely ever do it your self... and when you do it's with inconsistent as fk feat and you use that one feat to determine entire fking levels...

But when it comes to Zoro i am sad to say a consistent feat is going to be extremely hard to come across.

Oda always makes his fights look as badass as he can and makes Zoro says the most badass lines. Even if he never actually does any of it. As such it creates plenty of inconsistencies.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> I'm not a big fan of calcs, but mcb level durability is nothing special at this point in OP. Sabo's casual af Hiken was small city level for instance.


I know, but that was the gravity merely used to restrain Zoro. Just wanted to point out that Fuji was actually serious. The gravity he used to restrain Law for example was only wall level(small buidling max)

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Until you learn how the burden of proof, you should really stop saying that shit... Coz 90% of the time it's you who needs to prove shit


I do know how burden of proof works.
90%?
Since I have over 200 posts, naming 9 shouldn't be too difficult. 

When I put up the thread, I'll show you why those feats aren't "inconsistent"/"outliers"

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## Jackalinthebox (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I know, but that was the gravity merely used to restrain Zoro. Just wanted to point out that Fuji was actually serious. The gravity he used to restrain Law for example was only wall level(small buidling max)


Have these calcs been accepted? 

Anyway, Zoro got bled from that attack while Law did not. Dude was laying there having a convo, he wasn't trying to break free from the gravity. He was trying to waste time.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Have these calcs been accepted?
> 
> Anyway, Zoro got bled from that attack while Law did not. Dude was laying there having a convo, he wasn't trying to break free from the gravity. He was trying to waste time.


He's was having trouble breathing IIRC. He also showed visible strain and such.

Law's gravity was several orders of magnitude below Zoro's. So whether Law  led or not is irrelevant. The fact that Law was immobilised remains.

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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I do know how burden of proof works.
> 90%?
> Since I have over 200 posts, naming 9 shouldn't be too difficult.
> 
> When I put up the thread, I'll show you why those feats aren't "inconsistent"/"outliers"


You have 200+ posts and 200+ are correct
Can't see others probs

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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I do know how burden of proof works.
> 90%?
> Since I have over 200 posts, naming 9 shouldn't be too difficult.
> 
> When I put up the thread, I'll show you why those feats aren't "inconsistent"/"outliers"



... Damn you're so fking blind. OF COURSE YOU DON'T THINK THEY ARE INCONSISTENT YOU FUCKING LOVE ZORO AND WANT HIM TO BE ON THE LEVEL YOU PUT HIM ON!

Pre time skip. Before water 7 did you or anyone think that Zoro was close to Sanji? Or was he instead close to Luffy?

Which was it? The latter right?

Right! Well i did to. I thought Zoro could mid dif Sanji at the time because Zoro's feats and other shit just blew Sanji out of the water. There was no way Sanji could be close to Zoro... Zoro was way too close to Luffy. Zoro could fight Sanji to a good fight with no swords.

Then what happened? Want to know? The enemies got a power rating. Then what happened? Who were they pit against?

Luffy vs Lucci 4000

Zoro vs Kaku 2200

Sanji vs Jabra 2180

Franky vs Fukuro 800

What this had shown is one thing. That Zoro was not close to Luffy at all... but in fact was much MUCH closer to Sanji. Feats say Zoro, portrayal says Zoro. EVERYTHING says Zoro except what? The actual god damn power levels.

I am not saying current Sanji  is = to Zoro though, oh no... once again i am in the belief that Zoro is a nice bit above Sanji. But i will never EVER put Zoro on the same level as Luffy as i once did. Not after being so classically proven wrong.

Inb4 Luffy vs someone with 20,000
Zoro vs someone with 10,000
Sanji vs someone with 9,990


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Zoro with Ashura = 4050


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> What this had shown is one thing. That Zoro was not close to Luffy at all... but in fact was much MUCH closer to Sanji. Feats say Zoro, portrayal says Zoro. EVERYTHING says Zoro except what? The actual god damn power levels.


Douriki weren't power levels. They only evaluated physical strength. *NOTHING *else was taken into consideration.

This isn't the right place, but I'll deal with the Douriki argument later. I'll either make a separate thread for it, or cover it in my Pre TS Zoro respect thread.

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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Douriki weren't power levels. They only evaluated physical strength. *NOTHING *else was taken into consideration.
> 
> This isn't the right place, but I'll deal with the Douriki argument later. I'll either make a separate thread for it, or cover it in my Pre TS Zoro respect thread.


It's the brute strenght of an user without counting DF so Ashura indeed make Douriki grow up


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Douriki weren't power levels. They only evaluated physical strength. *NOTHING *else was taken into consideration.
> 
> This isn't the right place, but I'll deal with the Douriki argument later. I'll either make a separate thread for it, or cover it in my Pre TS Zoro respect thread.



Oh another. "The numbers don't match what i want so fk them and everything else." 

Did Lucci not also say he was literally the best at everything? Did Lucci get hyped up levels above any of the others. Did people not think Lucci was on par with Vice Admirals back when they were not fodders?


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Infact Zoro's Douriki are 10 times highter than Law's


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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Did Lucci not also say he was literally the best at everything


Kaku'so Rankyaku > Lucci's IIRC.
Kaku made the best use if his fruit IMO.
A Giraffe 》Leopard > Wolf in physical strength which is what Douriki measures.

A Giraffe would destroy a Leopard and Wolf together at once. A single kick from a giraffe can decapitate a lion.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Oh another. "The numbers don't match what i want so fk them and everything else."
> 
> Did Lucci not also say he was literally the best at everything? Did Lucci get hyped up levels above any of the others. Did people not think Lucci was on par with Vice Admirals back when they were not fodders?


Your do know that the Databook that came out after Eni especially Lobby said:

"Zoro stands shoulder to shoulder with Luffy in terms of combat ability"

That destroys your argument. The Douriki were flawed, simple as that. Yes Lucci was sufficiently stronger, but nothing more.

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## Veltpunch (May 17, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Have these calcs been accepted?
> 
> Anyway, Zoro got bled from that attack while Law did not. Dude was laying there having a convo, he wasn't trying to break free from the gravity. He was trying to waste time.


But now, what you're neglecting here is that:
1. That only speaks for the pressure of gravity used against Zoro, for it to draw blood from him
2. The fact that Fuji's purpose was clearly to restrain him, and nothing more, which is what he did so that they could have that conversation
3. There's no evidence suggesting Law could overpower the force to escape and the fact that he did not try is not grounds to claim that he could. I don't understand why this is a problem. He escaped the way that he would 10/10 times in that scenario, and that's with his DF. What matters is that he has a way to escape.

This thread should be closed. It no longer has anything to do with Zoro vs Doffy, and has become a Zoro downplay thread/Law meat appreciation thread. His base stats are not elite strength wise, nor speed wise in his tier. He has a power that *over*compensates for that. It's really that simple. At the end of the day, Law > Zoro. Let's move on.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> At the end of the day, Law > Zoro. Let's move on.


I disagree with this part.

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 17, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> "I can't back it up with hard evidence, but..." I'd say a secret trading port is hard evidence. This proves they didn't know about the port. And just how much could Smoker's report tell him? The port in DR would not be in Smoker's report on PH. He hasn't been to DR to know about a port. IIRC, the extent of Smoker's knowledge was CC --> DD relationship, not DD --> Kaidou. In the process of fact checking and I'll edit depending on what I find. Still no sign that the Marines knew about the port, and no evidence of them turning a blind eye since it seems like they didn't know about the port itself.



Okay, let's try a different approach. 

First. He is aware.
Second. The underground area is just that. A basement. At first or second glance, it's nothing more than that. Fujitora or the marine were not actively investigating the area, so the presence of a basement is nothing but that. A basement. Maynard was the one who went out of his way, actively, to check it out, and he was scolded by Bastille and Fujitora for that, for disobeying their orders. The only way Koala discovered that something was definitely wrong was by going down there and seeing carefully that the ships were disguised.

At the time that hole was made, the other marines were far away from that and immediately after began following Zoro. Fujitora may have discovered it, but even later when maynard confronted him, he decided to do nothing about it. This guy knows a lot, but wasn't going to act the entire arc. That was his plan.

Besides, I've already shown through mulitple layouts of dresrosa, that the ground was hollow underneath zoro and fuji. The maps, and layouts given to us through explanations prove that.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> The burden of proof is on you to prove that the ground was hollow.



I already proved it with the pictures of the maps and layout of dressrosa.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Etherborn (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I wanted to give Zoro a fighting chance.
> Zoro hasn't gone all out, so to make it fair, I restricted Zoro to current Zoro, and restricted Doffy equally(I think)



"I restricted Zoro to current Zoro." 

Ok then. I won't pretend it's the first time I've heard this logic. It still sounds dumb as fuck though. I don't think I need to explain that restricting someone to their current strength is not a restriction, so carry on.


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## Veltpunch (May 17, 2016)

@IchijiNijiSanji: Here is a better view: 

In that scan, the coliseum is extends to the length of the trade port. The port ends where the far left of the coliseum ends. 

The scuffle happens on that far left side, which is above passed the length of he trade port: 

Also shown in that scan is proof that the scuffle happened on the left side. In the first scan I linked, the left side is the side where the residents/houses are, which is how civilians watched the confrontation from when Doffy brought Law there. Also shown in that scan is that theu were several meters away from the coliseum, distancing them more from the port, so no, Fuji did not just drop Zoro into empty space. It was all ground. The fact that the port remained undiscovered helps reinforce this.

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 17, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> @IchijiNijiSanji: Here is a better view:
> 
> In that scan, the coliseum is extends to the length of the trade port. The port ends where the far left of the coliseum ends.
> 
> ...



Wait what? Explain the mental rotation to did to come at the conclusion that it was at the left side?


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I disagree with this part.


You agree that Zoro > Law

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## Veltpunch (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Wait what? Explain the mental rotation to did to come at the conclusion that it was at the left side?


If it happened on the right side, we'd see the palace. That isn't the case. Shown here:  they came crashing through the town, and landed right in front of it where they were visible to the townspeople. No palace, just the coliseum and the town. The left side is the only side that fits the criteria of 1. not being directly adjacent to the palace and 2. being on the side of the town.

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 17, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> If it happened on the right side, we'd see the palace. That isn't the case. Shown here:  they came crashing through the town, and landed right in front of it where they were visible to the townspeople. No palace, just the coliseum and the town. The left side is the only side that fits the criteria of 1. not being directly adjacent to the palace and 2. being on the side of the town.




Well, the way I understand it, the green bit/bridge is on that side of the colosseum. Doffy beat law straight from there to the colosseum.

If they went around it, the commotion would be seen on the side instead of coming from the front.

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## Veltpunch (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Well, the way I understand it, the green bit/bridge is on that side of the colosseum. Doffy beat law straight from there to the colosseum.
> 
> If they went around it, the commotion would be seen on the side instead of coming from the front.


The scans coupled with the fact that the port remained undiscovered favor my argument. Yours is speculation, from the marines' knowledge of the port to the whether or not they went around the bridge...speculation. I've brought you scans and proven that the marine's didn't have prior knowledge of the port and the fact that no one discovered the port at the time of the scuffle reinforces that the hole more than likely did not lead to the port.

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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Doffy made easy job of Law

Although Law's stamina wasn't perfect Doffy didn't even need to use his awakening

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 17, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> The scans coupled with the fact that the port remained undiscovered favor my argument. Yours is speculation, from the marines' knowledge of the port to the whether or not they went around the bridge...speculation. I've brought you scans and proven that the marine's didn't have prior knowledge of the port and the fact that no one discovered the port at the time of the scuffle reinforces that the hole more than likely did not lead to the port.



When Doffy and Fuji wre shown leaving to the palace, they were facing AWAY from the colosseum, meaning they were going in that direction, and it was to the right.

The port remaining undiscovered doesn't favor your argument. I broke it up in the my previous to previous post.

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## Jackalinthebox (May 17, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Doffy made easy job of Law
> 
> Although Law's stamina wasn't perfect Doffy didn't even need to use his awakening


G2/G3 Luffy got even worse treatment. Just saying

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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

Why don't i see this thread?


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## Kaiser (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Why don't i see this thread?


Most likely because the poster is on your ignore



Veltpunch said:


> But now, what you're neglecting here is that:
> 1. That only speaks for the pressure of gravity used against Zoro, for it to draw blood from him
> 2. The fact that Fuji's purpose was clearly to restrain him, and nothing more, which is what he did so that they could have that conversation
> 3. There's no evidence suggesting Law could overpower the force to escape and the fact that he did not try is not grounds to claim that he could. I don't understand why this is a problem. He escaped the way that he would 10/10 times in that scenario, and that's with his DF. What matters is that he has a way to escape.
> ...


Nicely said. This post has a lot of truth into this

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 17, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> The scans coupled with the fact that the port remained undiscovered favor my argument. Yours is speculation, from the marines' knowledge of the port to the whether or not they went around the bridge...speculation. I've brought you scans and proven that the marine's didn't have prior knowledge of the port and the fact that no one discovered the port at the time of the scuffle reinforces that the hole more than likely did not lead to the port.






Look at how much underground space is there on the left side though. 

On the other hand, Doffy and Fuji were much closer to the colosseum:


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## Yuki (May 17, 2016)

Having people on ignore now completely removes their threads? 

Fuck...


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## Finalbeta (May 17, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Having people on ignore now completely removes their threads?
> 
> Fuck...


Ignore is bad and you should feel happy

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## Veltpunch (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> When Doffy and Fuji wre shown leaving to the palace, they were facing AWAY from the colosseum, meaning they were going in that direction, and it was to the right.


Naturally, since they were leaving the coliseum. The palace is on the right side of the coliseum. Whether that were coming from left or if the were already on the right side, they have to go the same way to get to the palace. So, what's your point here?



> The port remaining undiscovered doesn't favor your argument. I broke it up in the my previous to previous post.


No, it does, and lol, you didn't break up anything.





> Look at how much underground space is there on the left side though.


Look at how the coliseum and the palace are almost overlapping. That is one of the worse perspectives of the layout given, out of a few. You posted better ones before. I believe the one I gave is the most recent layout, and  the coliseum and palace don't overlap.



> On the other hand, Doffy and Fuji were much closer to the colosseum:





>


Maybe..because they were leaving and flying in the general direction of the palace, which is next door?

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> "I restricted Zoro to current Zoro."
> 
> Ok then. I won't pretend it's the first time I've heard this logic. It still sounds dumb as fuck though. I don't think I need to explain that restricting someone to their current strength is not a restriction, so carry on.


It's not Zoro's current strength. It's Zoro's currently shown strength. Massive difference. Zoro could very well be X times stronger than he has shown.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I already proved it with the pictures of the maps and layout of dressrosa.


@Veltpunch, already debunked it.

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 17, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Naturally, since they were leaving the coliseum. The palace is on the right side of the coliseum. Whether that were coming from left or if the were already on the right side, they have to go the same way to get to the palace. So, what's your point here?



If you can fly, which direction would you go in if the they were on the left of the colosseum?



> No, it does, and lol, you didn't break up anything.



I showed how it is inconclusive, at best.



> Look at how the coliseum and the palace are almost overlapping. That is one of the worse perspectives of the layout given, out of a few. You posted better ones before. I believe the one I gave is the most recent layout, and  the coliseum and palace don't overlap.




The multiple perspectives given by me have shown that considering the size of the colosseum, and the cross section given, the distance of underground area on the left side is more than sufficient to encompass the area where fuji dropped zoro. 
What may seem like a small area to you, when zoomed in and seen from perspective scaled to the sizes of humans stretches for a long area which contains the area where fuji dropped zoro.



Look how small the colosseum looks because of the scale. Fuji/doffy other people would be the size of a pixel in that case. 




> Maybe..because they were leaving and flying in the general direction of the palace, which is next door?



If what you said was true, they'd be facing in the opposite direction.

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## Veltpunch (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> If you can fly, which direction would you go in if the they were on the left of the colosseum?


To the right, because the palace is to the right of the coliseum. You'd flu the same way even if you were on the right side of the coliseum, so again, your point?





> I showed how it is inconclusive, at best.


Nope. All you did was speculate on if they knew, if they had simply turned a blind eye to it, etc with no evidence, so the point still stands.






> The multiple perspectives given by me have shown that considering the size of the colosseum, and the cross section given, the distance of underground area on the left side is more than sufficient to encompass the area where fuji dropped zoro.





> What may seem like a small area to you, when zoomed in and seen from perspective scaled to the sizes of humans stretches for a long area which contains the area where fuji dropped zoro.


One of the perspectives you showed doesn't even display the coliseum: 

A couple pages after that one:  on snore zoomed layout, the part of the coliseum that is shown is nearly well over the vicinity of the trading port. If you were to double the size of the coliseum (since the entire thing isn't displayed) hat off hay little portion, it is still passed the vicinity of the port, but we know the coliseum is even bigger than that.  In the last panel you showed (what chapter is that?) the coliseum and place are right on top of each other. With all that said, these are all perspectives of the coliseum/palace from different angles, not just side by side. The one that I showed from chapter 733 is the best thing layout wise we have to a side-by-side view that also displays the area of the port, and the coliseum is passed it. Now you've got a zoomed in layout that displayes the same thing as the one that was from the farther view, both are more recent than what you've shown. The most you could argue is that the layouts are simply inconsistent.



> If what you said was true, they'd be facing in the opposite direction.


If you're saying what I think you're saying, then all you're questioning is whether or not Oda put much thought into the direction that they were going. The coliseum is on the left of the palace. No matter which side they were on, to get to the palace, they have to go right. If they were going left, that shows that the actual direction in which they would leave was not thought that hard about. Oda is human. It happens.

For a moment, lets entertain the thought of the port being directly under where Zoro fell. There is a significant amount of ground left to be broken through regardless. Enough that can support that huge palace, which is at least twice the size of the coliseum, on top of having to support the coliseum as well. Zoro went straight through, so even by what you're saying, it's more impressive, well, if you're not treating the ground beneath the coliseum and palace as sheet rock.

Edit: If we were to go by the last scan you provided, the ground between the coliseum and port is *at least* as thick as 1/3rd of the coliseum itself.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 17, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> .



At this point you're just going into "Oda is human so mistakes and inconsistencies happen", so this will go nowhere.

Also the picture of the layout I gave is very good, and it's from chapter 744 I think where sabo broke the colosseum floor with his hiken

Also where exactly are they right on top of each otehr (the palace and colosseum in my link layout?) ?


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## Veltpunch (May 17, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> At this point you're just going into "Oda is human so mistakes and inconsistencies happen", so this will go nowhere.


I mean, that's all you could have been getting at...No matter which side they were on, left or right, they *have * to go to the right of the coliseum to reach the palace. That's why you confused me by implying that they headed to the left. The palace is on the right, so the only thing you could have been alluding to is a mistake by Oda. If I'm wrong, clarify what you were trying to get at.



> Also the picture of the layout I gave is very good, and it's from chapter 744 I think where sabo broke the colosseum floor with his hiken


And at the very least, the first one I linked is good as well. Each perspective seems to be different....we even have a shot that doesn't even show the coliseum. 

I'm much more interested to see what you have to say about the second bit of my previous post.



> Also where exactly are they right on top of each otehr (the palace and colosseum in my link layout?) ?


Look at the top right of the coliseum and the left side of the place. They're nearly on top of each other. Also, you claimed that the shot I gave was a zoomed out version of yours, yet even in that shot, there is more space shown between the coliseum and the palace than in yours, which is the zoomed in shot. There should be more space displayed in your zoomed in shot than mine which was zoomed out, which means that we're looking at a different angle (in yours because mine was side to side) or an inconsistency.

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 17, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> I mean, that's all you could have been getting at...No matter which side they were on, left or right, they *have * to go to the right of the coliseum to reach the palace.



My point is that they were facing "away" from the colosseum. That indicates that when they were on the right side of the colosseum, not the left side if they were, as any reasonable person with the ability to fly, would take the direct route. 



> And at the very least, the first one I linked is good as well. Each perspective seems to be different....we even have a shot that doesn't even show the coliseum.



That may be focusing on something else.  In that one the colosseum is either behind the palace or infront of it (basically outside the page). It's a different cross section. 




> I'm much more interested to see what you have to say about the second bit of my previous post.



what part?



> Look at the top right of the coliseum and the left side of the place. They're nearly on top of each other. Also, you claimed that the shot I gave was a zoomed out version of yours, yet even in that shot, there is more space shown between the coliseum and the palace than in yours, which is the zoomed in shot. There should be more space displayed in your zoomed in shot than mine which was zoomed out, which means that we're looking at a different angle (in yours because mine was side to side) or an inconsistency.



So are the colosseum and the palace mountain thing adjacent?

I mean, here's another shot: 



Unless you can resolve the issue of perspectives. Like tell me which angle, or from where.


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## Veltpunch (May 18, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> My point is that they were facing "away" from the colosseum. That indicates that when they were on the right side of the colosseum, not the left side if they were, as any reasonable person with the ability to fly, would take the direct route.


...So are you basically saying that they were flying to the left as opposed to the right?





> That may be focusing on something else.  In that one the colosseum is either behind the palace or infront of it (basically outside the page). It's a different cross section.


Probably. Even so, looking at all of these layouts is confusing. There shouldn't even be this many, got damn.





> what part?


This part: 
*Spoiler*: __ 





Veltpunch said:


> For a moment, lets entertain the thought of the port being directly under where Zoro fell. There is a significant amount of ground left to be broken through regardless. Enough that can support that huge palace, which is at least twice the size of the coliseum, on top of having to support the coliseum as well. Zoro went straight through, so even by what you're saying, it's more impressive, well, if you're not treating the ground beneath the coliseum and palace as sheet rock.
> 
> Edit: If we were to go by the last scan you provided, the ground between the coliseum and port is *at least* as thick as 1/3rd of the coliseum itself.










> So are the colosseum and the palace mountain thing adjacent?
> 
> I mean, here's another shot:
> 
> ...


They're supposed to be, but not attached. These layouts are inconsistent as hell. Thinking there might be more validity to Oda simply not caring that much about them and the accuracy of them. We've pooled together layouts showing the port stretching farther than the coliseum, ones where the port falls short of the coliseum. Shit is confusing.

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 18, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> ...So are you basically saying that they were flying to the left as opposed to the right?



Yep. But this is under the assumption that they were towards the left of the colosseum.






> This part:



Oh that part. Okay. My point was to resolve the difference between the gravity used on law vs the gravity used on zoro. The initial point was that the gravity used on zoro may have been far greater than law's, but if the thickness of the rock under them is that much greater, it would imply that there is an exponential increase in the difficulty to break the rock and the strength of the gravity may have been the same.

People were downplaying Law because of that. I never said what Zoro did wasn't impressive, just that the gravity used on him may not have been higher at all than law. Simply because as the thickness of the rock increases, so would the difficulty in breaking it at an exponential rate.

Not to mention, the entire palace's weight is well spread out, so the amount of pressure put (force/unit area) would be a bit more reasonable and the weight could be supportable than if the weight was concentrated in one area. 



> They're supposed to be, but not attached. These layouts are inconsistent as hell. Thinking there might be more validity to Oda simply not caring that much about them and the accuracy of them. We've pooled together layouts showing the port stretching farther than the coliseum, ones where the port falls short of the coliseum. Shit is confusing.



Okay, so I did a calc based on the calculated size of the colosseum. Except for the one you showed shrouded by the text bubble every one of them had atleast 50meters of hollow ground on the left. 



This was the size of the colosseum. There's about 4 pixels of ground in the one you showed from



This. The colosseum length is about 45 pixels (diameter). Doing that calc implies there was enough room on the left. So basically majority of the panels indicate something, so 1 outlier can be ignored, which was even covered by a text bubble.


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## Mr. Good vibes (May 18, 2016)

Why is thread still going?


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## Veltpunch (May 18, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Yep. But this is under the assumption that they were towards the left of the colosseum.


That's what I thought you meant, but again, the coliseum is to the right of the palace. No matter which side of the coliseum they were on, they *have *to go right. If you're saying they went left, where are they going? We *know *they went to the palace, so knowing that they *had *to head right, what exactly are you trying to get at by saying that they headed left? I just don't see how that's relevant unless you're trying to point out an inconsistency that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.





> Oh that part. Okay. My point was to resolve the difference between the gravity used on law vs the gravity used on zoro. The initial point was that the gravity used on zoro may have been far greater than law's, but if the thickness of the rock under them is that much greater, it would imply that there is an exponential increase in the difficulty to break the rock and the strength of the gravity may have been the same.


That doesn't really answer what I said, but ok. Even if the amounts of gravity were the same, Zoro broke free while Law could not using his physical strength. The fact that he didn't try to is it grounds to say that he could, so as it stands, this feat is evidence in saying Zoro > Law in physical strength (obvious to most). I honestly do not see the problem with this. He escaped the same way he would 10/10 times in that situation, and that's with his ability. That's just who he is and what he can do. His base stats strength/speed wise are simply mediocre for his tier but his ability puts him over the top in those categories. I'll never understand why this is such a big deal.



> People were downplaying Law because of that. I never said what Zoro did wasn't impressive, just that the gravity used on him may not have been higher at all than law. Simply because as the thickness of the rock increases, so would the difficulty in breaking it at an exponential rate.


Saying Zoro is physically stronger than Law is not downplay. On the contrary, people thinking that it's debatable given what they've shown is do playing Zoro. Again, even if the Gravity was the same, who broke free with brute force? Who didn't? You're over complicating this.



> Not to mention, the entire palace's weight is well spread out, so the amount of pressure put (force/unit area) would be a bit more reasonable and the weight could be supportable than if the weight was concentrated in one area.


So you know how much the palace weighed?






> Okay, so I did a calc based on the calculated size of the colosseum. Except for the one you showed shrouded by the text bubble every one of them had atleast 50meters of hollow ground on the left.





> This was the size of the colosseum. There's about 4 pixels of ground in the one you showed from
> 
> 
> 
> This. The colosseum length is about 45 pixels (diameter). Doing that calc implies there was enough room on the left. So basically majority of the panels indicate something, so 1 outlier can be ignored, which was even covered by a text bubble.


I can't view the images. Maybe because I'm on mobile but any calc done based on these layouts need to be taken with a grain of salt. We've established that they're inconsistent. In zoomed in versions, less space is shown in areas that should show more space than in the zoomed out versions of the same area. As it stands, there are versions of the layout in which everything is connected, or disconected. There's at least one scan showing the factory underground as being supported by a wall, some that show otherwise. At the end of the day, you've got scans that show space underneath the drop point, I've got scans showing there wasn't. They're just flat out inconsistent.



Onewhosbeenaround said:


> Why is thread still going?


Apparently being realistic about Law's base strength/speed is frowned upon. Don't know why. He has an ability that overcompensates for those shortcomings.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 18, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> That's what I thought you meant, but again, the coliseum is to the right of the palace. No matter which side of the coliseum they were on, they *have *to go right. If you're saying they went left, where are they going? We *know *they went to the palace, so knowing that they *had *to head right, what exactly are you trying to get at by saying that they headed left? I just don't see how that's relevant unless you're trying to point out an inconsistency that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.



You are not understanding.

They were going away from the colosseum wall. As in facing away.

If they were on the right side of the colosseum, going away from the colosseum would mean that they are going towards the right, which means going towards the palace.

If they were on the left of the colosseum, going away from the colosseum would mean they are going to the left. Which means away from the palace.



> That doesn't really answer what I said, but ok. Even if the amounts of gravity were the same, Zoro broke free while Law could not using his physical strength. The fact that he didn't try to is it grounds to say that he could, so as it stands, this feat is evidence in saying Zoro > Law in physical strength (obvious to most). I honestly do not see the problem with this. He escaped the same way he would 10/10 times in that situation, and that's with his ability. That's just who he is and what he can do. His base stats strength/speed wise are simply mediocre for his tier but his ability puts him over the top in those categories. I'll never understand why this is such a big deal.



No, it did answer what you said. The only point I'm making is that the amount of gravity could've been the same. No other relevance. But people like Amon lancelot are putting it like zoro survived 100s of times the gravity law did, indicating durability as well. Strength wise, I wasn't arguing this point. but strength wise one of zoro's basic moves should be replicable by Law, don't you think?



> At the end of the day, you've got scans that show space underneath the drop point, I've got scans showing there wasn't. They're just flat out inconsistent.



1, you have 1 scan showing that. The majority remaining show that there's atleast 40-50 meters of space to the left of the colosseum. If anything, that 1 scan is inconsistent.


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## Veltpunch (May 18, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> You are not understanding.
> 
> They were going away from the colosseum wall. As in facing away.
> 
> ...


You're confusing yourself. Them going away from the coliseum *is a given.* That's the point of leaving somewhere: you go away.

Them going to the left means absolutely nothing. We *know *for a fact that they went to the palace. There's no disputing that. The palace is not to the left, so that's irrelevant. You *have *to go to the right to get to the palace whether you're on the left or the right of the coliseum. This is completely irrelevant. You have no point here.

Just to shut this down once and for all, lets entertain you for a minute. Let's say that them facing the left means anything at all. In the scan you're talking about:  yes, they're facing away, but all you have to do is go to the next page:  and you'll see that Zoro and Kinnemon facing the right. Did it ever occur to you that Doffy and Fuji ascended to look at Zoro/Kinnemon as they were leaving? That they might have flown over their head to the right as the following page implies?





> No, it did answer what you said. The only point I'm making is that the amount of gravity could've been the same. No other relevance. But people like Amon lancelot are putting it like zoro survived 100s of times the gravity law did, indicating durability as well. Strength wise, I wasn't arguing this point. but strength wise one of zoro's basic moves should be replicable by Law, don't you think?


No, you didn't though. Doesn't matter how much gravity. It was no less than what was restraining Law, and it's simply the more impressive feat. Credit where it's due.

Depends on what you mean by basic. 





> 1, you have 1 scan showing that. The majority remaining show that there's atleast 40-50 meters of space to the left of the colosseum. If anything, that 1 scan is inconsistent.


*2, but one inconsistent scan from the lot, especially one of the more recent layouts, is enough to question the consistently of all of them. There can't be 3 different layouts with at least 2 inconsistencies each. You call that consistent?

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 19, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> You're confusing yourself. Them going away from the coliseum *is a given.* That's the point of leaving somewhere: you go away.
> 
> Them going to the left means absolutely nothing. We *know *for a fact that they went to the palace. There's no disputing that. The palace is not to the left, so that's irrelevant. You *have *to go to the right to get to the palace whether you're on the left or the right of the coliseum. This is completely irrelevant. You have no point here.



If you're on the right of the colosseum, you facing away while flying would mean you're going to the palace.
If you're on the left, you facing away while flying would mean you're going away from the palace.

This is the point. Whether this encounter was happening on the left side of the colosseum or the right side of the colosseum. 



> Just to shut this down once and for all, lets entertain you for a minute. Let's say that them facing the left means anything at all. In the scan you're talking about:  yes, they're facing away, but all you have to do is go to the next page:  and you'll see that Zoro and Kinnemon facing the right. Did it ever occur to you that Doffy and Fuji ascended to look at Zoro/Kinnemon as they were leaving? That they might have flown over their head to the right as the following page implies?



No I was not talking about that scan page. I was talking about this one:



They're facing away and Kinemon and Zoro are running in a different direction to where Fuji and Doffy are facing. Zoro and Kin were running towards the window luffy was in. If they wanted to look at Zoro and kinemon while they were leaving they would have to moonwalk like michael jackson



> Depends on what you mean by basic.



Nameless, flying slash. Even the move he used on hody jones had a name.



> *2, but one inconsistent scan from the lot, especially one of the more recent layouts, is enough to question the consistently of all of them. There can't be 3 different layouts with at least 2 inconsistencies each. You call that consistent?



No. Only one.

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## Veltpunch (May 19, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> If you're on the right of the colosseum, you facing away while flying would mean you're going to the palace.
> If you're on the left, you facing away while flying would mean you're going away from the palace.
> 
> This is the point. Whether this encounter was happening on the left side of the colosseum or the right side of the colosseum.


There is no point to be made here. If they're on the right side, where's the palace in those scans? The palace is huge. It would have been in one, especially considering that there isn't much room between the coliseum and the palace. It should have at least been partially visible in one of those panels. Where is it?





> No I was not talking about that scan page. I was talking about this one:
> 
> 
> 
> They're facing away and Kinemon and Zoro are running in a different direction to where Fuji and Doffy are facing. Zoro and Kin were running towards the window luffy was in. If they wanted to look at Zoro and kinemon while they were leaving they would have to moonwalk like michael jackson


That was to show that Luffy acknowledged them leaving. Zoro and Kin were watching them leave, and they were clearly facing the right. You're trying to nitpick the hell out of this when it's simple and you're confusing yourself, and frankly, me too. You don't have a point here.



> Nameless, flying slash. Even the move he used on hody jones had a name.


Zoro is Zoro, Law is Law. They do what they do. That's my answer.





> No. Only one.


Two, but again, one is enough.

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 20, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> There is no point to be made here. If they're on the right side, where's the palace in those scans? The palace is huge. It would have been in one, especially considering that there isn't much room between the coliseum and the palace. It should have at least been partially visible in one of those panels. Where is it?



Inconsistency. Your argument is invalid.



> That was to show that Luffy acknowledged them leaving. Zoro and Kin were watching them leave, and they were clearly facing the right. You're trying to nitpick the hell out of this when it's simple and you're confusing yourself, and frankly, me too. You don't have a point here.



Inconsistency. Your argument is invalid.



> Zoro is Zoro, Law is Law. They do what they do. That's my answer.



Inconsistency. Your argument is invalid.



> Two, but again, one is enough.



Inconsistency. Your argument is invalid.

Law>Zoro in strength.

Boom. Nailed it!

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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> People were downplaying Law because of that. I never said what Zoro did wasn't impressive, just that the gravity used on him may not have been higher at all than law. Simply because as the thickness of the rock increases, so would the difficulty in breaking it at an exponential rate.
> 
> Not to mention, the entire palace's weight is well spread out, so the amount of pressure put (force/unit area) would be a bit more reasonable and the weight could be supportable than if the weight was concentrated in one area.


Generally, if the material in question is X, and the length of compression is the same, giving two lengths of material X1, and X2 : X2 > X1
The Pressure required to compress X1, be P1, and X2 be P2.
P1 = (X2/X1)*P2

Refresh your Physics knowledge on elasticity.

If I took you seriously, it would only end up vastly inflating Zoro's feat.

At any rate, concrete cannot withstand  a stress greater than 0.1 and reaches breaking point, so the concrete will continue breaking repetitively in a series. Doesn't change the fact that your only inflating Zoro's feat without even realising it.

This is one of the reasons why I never bothered replying to you.

The other, is because  thought it was bullshit.

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## Amon Lancelot -- Law and Zoro physical comparison (May 20, 2016)

Law and zoro are not on the same tier physically.
In durability and raw strength, Zoro is several leagues above Law.
To prove my point, I'll compare their performance under Fujitora's gravity.

Law under Fujitora's gravity

*Spoiler*: __ 












Zoro under Fujitora's gravity:

*Spoiler*: __ 












The gravity Fujitora used on Zoro, was several orders of magnitude greater than what he used on law.
Law was immobilized by the weaker gravity, and was facing breathing problems.
Zoro survived the vastly greater gravity, and was able to overcome moving his hand under that gravity to generate enough force to send a flying slash which not only overcame said extreme gravity, but also pushed Fujitora back at least a metre.

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## Veltpunch (May 20, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Inconsistency. Your argument is invalid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Concession accepted. Tell your friends, I now accept them through PayPal as well.

I'm also selling Britas to help filter out all that salt.

@Juvia. : you can't think bad of me for this one. Tell me his response wasn't a concession?

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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> No, you didn't though. Doesn't matter how much gravity. It was no less than what was restraining Law, and it's simply the more impressive feat. Credit where it's due.
> 
> Depends on what you mean by basic.


By My calculations, Zoro survived *thousands *of times the gravity that Law did.

To give you a visual comparison:


Amon Lancelot said:


> Law and zoro are not on the same tier physically.
> In durability and raw strength, Zoro is several leagues above Law.
> To prove my point, I'll compare their performance under Fujitora's gravity.
> 
> ...

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## Amon Lancelot (May 20, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Nameless, flying slash. Even the move he used on hody jones had a name.


Not as important as you think. That was from a super casual Zoro. He didn't take Hody as a legitimate threat then. Vs Pica., he was sending mountain busting slashes, that were nameless. Would you say they are weaker than what he used on Hody Jones too?

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 21, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> Concession accepted. Tell your friends, I now accept them through PayPal as well.
> 
> I'm also selling Britas to help filter out all that salt.
> 
> @Juvia. : you can't think bad of me for this one. Tell me his response wasn't a concession?



I didn't concede my point, just gave up trying to argue and used your style of arguing.

btw you're confused and confusing yourself


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Not as important as you think. That was from a super casual Zoro. He didn't take Hody as a legitimate threat then. Vs Pica., he was sending mountain busting slashes, that were nameless. Would you say they are weaker than what he used on Hody Jones too?



He did use nameless slashes against Pica?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> By My calculations, Zoro survived *thousands *of times the gravity that Law did.
> 
> To give you a visual comparison:



I'm curious about your calculations. Did you just seriously use the air pressure increase due to gravity?


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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I'm curious about your calculations. Did you just seriously use the air pressure increase due to gravity?


It was a depression; a compression. The ground breaking under it's own weight, would only work, if there was a hollow space under the ground, another material, etc. If he applies gravity to the ground,  then it should raise the weight of a large portion of the ground. Not some column of earth. Unless said column is a separate object. Air pressure works as well. How do you think horizontal gravity works?

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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> He did use nameless slashes against Pica?


ISDS should only have been the first slash. All the others, were nameless, and they were small mountain/hill busting.

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> ISDS should only have been the first slash. All the others, were nameless, and they were small mountain/hill busting.



He used a 1260 pound canon or something the first time.
And he used Ittoryu baki as well against Pica's bite stone. 
I'm sure he used some more stuff but it I can't remember it if he used any more mountain/hill/building busting slashes. 



> It was a depression; a compression. The ground breaking under it's own weight, would only work, if there was a hollow space under the ground, another material, etc. If he applies gravity to the ground, then it should raise the weight of a large portion of the ground. Not some column of earth. Unless said column is a separate object. Air pressure works as well. How do you think horizontal gravity works?



Honestly, since Fuji can pull meteors out of the sky, I think it went pretty deep collapsing under itself. Even if a section of the earth's weight increased in a column I could break the ground under it. Using air pressure seems overkill. 

It could also be that he can control how much distance his gravity goes for. For example, for the horizonal gravity and law, he only used gravity on a small distance, but for pulling meteors and putting people in the ground (like at the gamble house as well) he uses more distance.


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## Amon Lancelot (May 21, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Honestly, since Fuji can pull meteors out of the sky, I think it went pretty deep collapsing under itself. Even if a section of the earth's weight increased in a column I could break the ground under it. Using air pressure seems overkill.


The visual effects, seems like it was a force pushing down on the ground, and not the ground collapsing under its own weight.

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## Kaiser (May 21, 2016)

I don't even think the thickness of the ground has to do with anything
The little rock that replaced Law was considerably tiny in terms of volume than the earth's thickness, yet it took a little while for Fujitora's gravity to break it without even completely destroying it
That shows the ground pressure on Law had nothing to do with the earth's thickness

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## Raiden34 (May 21, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Law and zoro are not on the same tier physically.
> In durability and raw strength, Zoro is several leagues above Law.
> To prove my point, I'll compare their performance under Fujitora's gravity.
> 
> ...



What kind of illogical bias is this? Law was getting double penetrated by both Doflamingo and Fujitora before that gravity hold, he was already defeated, Zoro however, was fresh and he gets himself a fodder treatment from Fuji's casual attack, that only proves that Zoro wouldn't die from Fuji's nameless attack, and Law is good enough to hold his own against Doffy + Fuji.

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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 21, 2016)

Kaiser said:


> I don't even think the thickness of the ground has to do with anything
> The little rock that replaced Law was considerably tiny in terms of volume than the earth's thickness, yet it took a little while for Fujitora's gravity to break it without even completely destroying it
> That shows the ground pressure on Law had nothing to do with the earth's thickness



Smaller things can be harder to break.  I think it's called galileo's square cube law.



Amon Lancelot said:


> The visual effects, seems like it was a force pushing down on the ground, and not the ground collapsing under its own weight.



It's a way to visualize increase in gravity and the sudden movement of things being pulled down. It's perspective I suppose.


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## Finalbeta (May 21, 2016)

Smaller things are harder to break because of accuracy not physics


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## Veltpunch (May 21, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I didn't concede my point, just gave up trying to argue and used your style of arguing.
> 
> btw you're confused and confusing yourself


So yeah, PayPal, MasterCard, Visa, etc. Tell your friends.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (May 21, 2016)

Veltpunch said:


> So yeah, PayPal, MasterCard, Visa, etc. Tell your friends.



bro you're confused


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## Benn Beckman (May 22, 2016)

I have no idea if Zoro's current feats are enough to beat restricted Doffy, because Pica is such a shit character and I can't tell how close he is to Virgo in strength, but this seems to have devolved into a competition between Zoro and Law somehow, so I'll pitch in on that instead.

Zoro is stronger and more durable, mainly because everything Zoro does is a feat of strength and technique, not cheap DF hax. And because his durability and endurance are pillars of his character design. If he's not capable of taking exceptionally massive amounts of damage and still standing, he is no longer Zoro. It's just one of those rules we established through the series, like Luffy having endless stamina and will to live, or Usopp being stronger than he gives himself credit for. It's something that wouldn't be accepted in OBD, but here in the OP section, we should be interpreting the manga properly, not just feat-this and feats-that.

Law has massive speed and mobility hax.

Zoro would fare better against restricted Doffy because of raw stats and specialization in BH.

Law would fare better against hax Doffy because of his own speed hax and intel on Doffy's ability.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 22, 2016)

Frankiest said:


> , because Pica is such a shit character and I can't tell how close he is to Virgo in strength


Pica has been portrayed as at the very least ~ to Vergo. Only reason people call him fodder, is because Zoro was just too strong. Same with Hyouzou, etc.



Frankiest said:


> Zoro is stronger and more durable,


yeah, I did a write up on this:
Law and zoro are not on the same tier physically.
In durability and raw strength, Zoro is several leagues above Law.
To prove my point, I'll compare their performance under Fujitora's gravity.

Law under Fujitora's gravity

*Spoiler*: __ 












Zoro under Fujitora's gravity:

*Spoiler*: __ 












The gravity Fujitora used on Zoro, was several orders of magnitude greater than what he used on law.
Law was immobilized by the weaker gravity, and was facing breathing problems.
Zoro survived the vastly greater gravity, and was able to overcome moving his hand under that gravity to generate enough force to send a flying slash which not only overcame said extreme gravity, but also pushed Fujitora back at least a metre.




Frankiest said:


> Law would fare better against hax Doffy because of his own speed hax and intel on Doffy's ability.


Don't know about this. Law's hax wasn't working. Law's a guy for OHKOs, not protracted battles of attrition.

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## Finalbeta (May 22, 2016)

Zoro by feats is still a mid diff fight for Doflamingo, but I'm sure he's on his general level in the end

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## TheWiggian (May 24, 2016)

Doflamingo by feats, portrayal and hype pushes Zoro to neg diff, with all his might (awakening, parasite, bc, bk, poser shades).


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## HisMajestyMihawk (May 25, 2016)

some of these haters replies are asinine 

Someone who stalemated Fujitora and easily fodderized ALL of Luffy's post-TS opponents is not losing against a deathbed Flamingo

Luffy only lost because of plot reasons (G4 ran out in order to build suspense). Zoro would have put down DD with 1080pc and that would have been that

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## Amon Lancelot (May 26, 2016)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> some of these haters replies are asinine
> 
> Someone who stalemated Fujitora and easily fodderized ALL of Luffy's post-TS opponents is not losing against a deathbed Flamingo
> 
> Luffy only lost because of plot reasons (G4 ran out in order to build suspense). Zoro would have put down DD with 1080pc and that would have been that


I think he'd need a Sanzen Sekai though.

But seriously, DD chose to dodge grizzly magnum, and 1080 PC > Grizzly Magnum.

He pushed back fujitora while under extreme gravity.

Can mountain bust using a nameless attack.

Spam small hill busting slashes.

>>>>>>> Law in Physical strength and durability.

Dofla isn't blocking a Gyuuki muzume or Ni Gori Zake with an Athlete Ito I tell you.

Doffy's mobility and speed will be an issue, but if he takes to the skies, then Zoro will just send his hill and mountain busting flying slashes.
He has moves like Tatsumaki. Can blitz with his Iai techniques.

He  also has this barrier technique he used against Hyouzou. In CQC, and DOffy gets in his barrier, Zoro can possibly blitz. It will be very long and drawn out. but Zoro will take it.

I'm pretty sure Zoro >> Doffy in strength as well.

Doffy's sticthing ability with his DF, will be a major obstacle, but I'm sure Zoro can pull it off.

upper mid diff I'd say.  A little roughed up here and there. Nothing as intense as his fight with Mr 1.

Of course if Zoro can't cut "god thread", and he uses it to make "Spider Web" and defend himself, I see him losing.

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## Jackalinthebox (May 26, 2016)

Why is this thread still on-going? Zoron gets shredded no matter how you look at it. The strongest opponent I can see the Zoron beating; is G2/G3 Luffy, albeit with extreme-diff. That same Luffy was getting treated like a child by Doffy. 

We already saw what happened when Zoron's rival tried fighting DD. This battle wouldn't be too much better, except Law wouldn't be there to save anyone's ass this time.

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## HisMajestyMihawk (May 28, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> I think he'd need a Sanzen Sekai though.



perhaps

but Zoron would still defeat deathbed Flamingo without a scratch

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## giantbiceps (May 28, 2016)

Zoron'd need Law to win against Deadbed Mingo

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## Amon Lancelot (May 31, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> . The strongest


Zoro mid/high diffs G2/G3 by current feats.
I'll personally say mid.

By portrayal Zoro 》G2/G3 Luffy.

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## Amon Lancelot (May 31, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> We already saw what happened when Zoron's rival tried fighting DD. This battle wouldn't be too much better,


Zoro low/no diffs Sanji by current feats and portrayal.

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## Typhon (Jun 1, 2016)

This thread was a riot. The only thing I'll touch on is that Law is easily in the same league as Zoro physically

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