# At what point is it unacceptable to separate the artist from the work?



## ∞Eternity∞ (Jan 10, 2019)

I ask this question in light of the R Kelly situation. I've seen people on facebook saying he has made fantastic music and I can't just throw out his music because of the content of his character. On the other hand I've seen people with the perspective of fuck this niqqa and his music he's a sick individual.

How horrible does the deed have to be before you say I can't separate the artist from the work?


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## Moritsune (Jan 10, 2019)

I don't think that there is a point where I'd consider judging the work based on the artist's actions. A lot of brilliant things have been made by horrible people, doesn't stop the work from being amazing. The only contention I see is not wanting such a person to make profit, which is understandable, but I think it's silly to go as far as to change the radio station anytime an R Kelly song comes on or the like.


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## Harmonie (Jan 10, 2019)

If they're a living artist/group I will stop listening to/purchasing any of their music immediately. Just to give an example of what bar I will set not listening to an artist/band anymore... 3 Doors Down, they were a band I liked back in my mid-teens. While I didn't like them as much anymore, I still really liked "Here Without You". However, when it came out that they were supporting of Trump I stopped listening to even that song and haven't since.

If I had listened to R Kelly I would most certainly stop that, too.

It's easier to separate the music from the actions/beliefs of the artist with composers from centuries past like Wagner (however screwed up that may be, as he was so proudly anti-Semitic that Hitler loved him and his music). Thankfully I can't say I even really listen to Wagner much, but there is certainly a lot of appreciation for his music nowadays despite him being a terrible person and that should make us wonder.

It certainly is a question that I don't like to think about since I'm sure many of the artists and especially composers I listen to are/were extremely problematic. I like music too much and just want to listen to it. It really takes something like that Trump supporting show that 3 Doors Down were listed as participating in being shoved in my face for me to go "I'm done with you". That makes this uncomfortable for me because I know I'm not being the best person I can be in this situation.


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## Owl (Jan 10, 2019)

If the artist in question is problematic af. No pass for problematic behavior. Just like how Drake is into underage girls and David Bowie had sex with a 14 year old.


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## Aphrodite (Jan 10, 2019)

I like his songs and still listen to them but that doesnt mean i have to like him. People say Michael Jackson was a freak and into weird shit but still imo he was one of the best singers to of ever lived and i still listen to his music till this day. The same can be said about other artist. I think liking there music and the way they act on tv should be separate from how they live there life. Still doesn't mean i like them though.

No matter what happens you will always find people who find it hard to separate the person from the music and that wont ever change.


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## Mider T (Jan 10, 2019)

3 Doors Down are Trump supporters? @Harmonie


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## Skylar (Jan 10, 2019)

Dumb mistakes are forgivable but when it comes to serious offenses (pedophilia, rape, murder, etc.) I draw the line. How I deal with it, it's more about what to do with the revenue the artist receives rather than the work itself. I can recognize the talent that person has when it comes to art and see their work for what it truly is but I don't contribute in elevating degenerates in life. They don't receive support in any form from this end.


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## NW (Jan 10, 2019)

Never.


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## Harmonie (Jan 10, 2019)

Mider T said:


> 3 Doors Down are Trump supporters? @Harmonie



I had to look it up, but found out they agreed to perform at his inauguration. Certainly after reading that article I am only more certain that me dropping them was the right decision. I had no idea they were so trashy.


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## Catamount (Jan 10, 2019)

I don’t think I could be listening to music of someone whom I know to be horrible, because I would here that in their sound.
The same for visual art. I would see it as they are having an escape for their twisted mind.


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## Moritsune (Jan 10, 2019)

Harmonie said:


> I had to look it up, but found out they agreed to perform at his inauguration. Certainly after reading that article I am only more certain that me dropping them was the right decision. I had no idea they were so trashy.


You stop listening to music you like because of a difference in political opinion? You're fucking special....


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## Harmonie (Jan 10, 2019)

Moritsune said:


> You stop listening to music you like because of a difference in political opinion? You're fucking special....



Supporting Trump goes well beyond a respectable "difference in political opinion" for me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Catamount (Jan 10, 2019)

Moritsune said:


> You stop listening to music you like because of a difference in political opinion? You're fucking special....


Sometimes it is not about the opinion itself, but the sudden understanding that the artist you have related to sold it all. I do not know if it is about Trump, do not mean this case only, but I have seen some races when the losing (due to reasons) party bought quiet a few names for the support concert. One of them I clearly remember singing about the better future for youth and nation before lol
Kind of killing it, right


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## StarlightAshley (Jan 10, 2019)

I beleive I can fly is a beautiful song I don't care what kind of person R Kelly is, its a fact. Their is no argument for - OH NO DAD


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## Kairi (Jan 10, 2019)

It's hard for me, personally, to listen to a song by an artist knowing that what they've done/are doing is completely against what I believe. Every time I hear a song by R. Kelly, I think about how he married Aaliyah when she was 15. Or that he was peeing on an underage girl. I refuse to support someone that does something so disgusting.

MJ was a weird case to me. I didn't actively listen to him, but I'm pretty sure the kid that said that Michael molested him came out and said it was a lie.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nep Nep (Jan 10, 2019)

Harmonie said:


> Supporting Trump goes well beyond a respectable "difference in political opinion" for me.




Keep politics in the cafe. It's more tiring to hear peeps whining about Trump than it is to hear about football on football season by now.

It's like all the rednecks that wouldn't shut up about Obama's birth certificate and other nonsense. What a switch huh?
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Anyways OP. No I don't really care. I may find a way to enjoy their work while stripping them of profit if possible but their work is good regardless of what kind of person they are.

I mean, in a ridiculous scenario, let's say Hitler came back to life and while attempting to continue his awful deeds also created for his aryan army a machine that can regenerate cells so rapidly that even severe wounds are cured.

Would you oppose that machine being used for the public after his second defeat because of the monster that made it?

Ofc not. You'd have to be on the fucking spectrum to say no.


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## mali (Jan 10, 2019)

Ignoring the bad an artist does/says in order to have more music available to have pleasurable experiences with is understandable. Acting like the "badness" in question cant seep in to their work is just naive.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Magic (Jan 10, 2019)

Moritsune said:


> You stop listening to music you like because of a difference in political opinion? You're fucking special....


It's something called uh integrity boss. Personal sense of right and wrong. Kind of special.


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## Moritsune (Jan 10, 2019)

RemChu said:


> It's something called uh integrity boss. Personal sense of right and wrong. Kind of special.


We're talking about a group supporting a president here, not supporting a genocidal dictator. Would your integrity stand firm when faced with this decision if we were talking about your doctor and not a band? Would you really reject treatment because someone voted differently than you did? If the answer is no, it's not about integrity at all.


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## StarlightAshley (Jan 10, 2019)

RemChu said:


> It's something called uh integrity boss. Personal sense of right and wrong. Kind of special.


Thats a good argument! I like to be objective, but I have a really strong sense of morals and can be stubborn and irrational in regards to following them so, I guess if you find it morally wrong to support someone who did wrong, then it makes sense to me why you would stop. Just as long as you don't expect other people to do the same. 


Aphrodite said:


> I like his songs and still listen to them but that doesnt mean i have to like him. People say Michael Jackson was a freak and into weird shit but still imo he was one of the best singers to of ever lived and i still listen to his music till this day


Well people are wrong, Micheal Jackson wasn't a freak at all! He did nothing worth all the hate he got. The pedo thing was all unfounded, the 1 kid whose parents sued for "touching" him, admitted shortly after MJ's death that his parents made him lie about it so they could get money. His appearance got more and more frightening over time, because he had a rare skin condition, not because he was a monster. Micheal Jackson is nothing like R Kelly. He was both a great talent and a great person. It makes me so sad that he got so much hate, he was literally the most hated celebrity in the world before he died, and he didn't actually do anything to warrant it other than being 'wierd.' Some people...


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## Magic (Jan 10, 2019)

Moritsune said:


> We're talking about a group supporting a president here, not supporting a genocidal dictator. Would your integrity stand firm when faced with this decision if we were talking about your doctor and not a band? Would you really reject treatment because someone voted differently than you did? If the answer is no, it's not about integrity at all.



I'm talking about the main topic here. 

And equating a band to a doctor visit is very silly.


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## Magic (Jan 10, 2019)

You break a taboo you get shunned by people. Not a hard concept to grasp. An artist can harm their image to the public indulging in risky stuff. That's on them. 

It shouldn't reflect badly on consumers who choose to not support said person in their deviant decisions.


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## Moritsune (Jan 10, 2019)

RemChu said:


> I'm talking about the main topic here.
> 
> And equating a band to a doctor visit is very silly.


Same principle, if your political convictions are so ridiculous that you can't stand the thought of supporting a band financially just because they support a president that you don't, that conviction should carry to any person who fits that bill.


RemChu said:


> You break a taboo you get shunned by people. Not a hard concept to grasp. An artist can harm their image to the public indulging in risky stuff. That's on them.
> 
> It shouldn't reflect badly on consumers who choose to not support said person in their deviant decisions.



I agree with you to a certain extent, but when we're talking about the only perceived negative is a band's support of the president, that's a little insane, especially here in the US where our system of checks and balances inhibits the actions of the president enough in most cases that there are no major differences between candidates. I mean, for fuck's sake, I don't like Trump either, but you have to be a real sensitive person to abandon something you like because the artist supports him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nep Nep (Jan 10, 2019)

Moritsune said:


> Same principle, if your political convictions are so ridiculous that you can't stand the thought of supporting a band financially just because they support a president that you don't, that conviction should carry to any person who fits that bill.
> 
> 
> I agree with you to a certain extent, but when we're talking about the only perceived negative is a band's support of the president, that's a little insane, especially here in the US where our system of checks and balances inhibits the actions of the president enough in most cases that there are no major differences between candidates. I mean, for fuck's sake, I don't like Trump either, but you have to be a *real sensitive person* to abandon something you like because the artist supports him.



Welcome to modern America. Home of the whining spoiled babies and land of the snowflakes. Or at least, the internet.


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## StarlightAshley (Jan 10, 2019)

Nep Nep said:


> Welcome to modern America. Home of the whining spoiled babies and land of the snowflakes. Or at least, the internet.


I thought Canada was the land of the snowflakes? We have like a zillion of them lol! Screw 4 Seasons Winter all year looong~!


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## Magic (Jan 10, 2019)

Well sounds like the real problem is the President is polarizing and the political climate is polarizing. Obviously some things must have been said and done to get to that point. 

It would be insane if there was no justification whatsoever, but things don't just happen in a vacuum like that without a cause.


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## StarlightAshley (Jan 10, 2019)

RemChu said:


> Well sounds like the real problem is the President is polarizing and the political climate is polarizing.


Talking about polarizing Climate, its* FRE-EZING* in Canada! I can't wait for climate change to melt the snow here god, sorry polar bears!!


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## Nep Nep (Jan 10, 2019)

StarlightAshley said:


> I thought Canada was the land of the snowflakes? We have like a zillion of them lol! Screw 4 Seasons Winter all year looong~!


Canada is land of 32 gender flavors and the 16 year old girl Prime Minister.


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## StarlightAshley (Jan 10, 2019)

Nep Nep said:


> Canada is land of 32 gender flavors and the 16 year old girl Prime Minister.


 What?! our prime minsiter isn't a 16 year old girl.. it's Tim Horton!!


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## Nep Nep (Jan 10, 2019)

I thought Tim Horton's was a store or something @-@


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## StarlightAshley (Jan 10, 2019)

Nep Nep said:


> I thought Tim Horton's was a store or something @-@


I'm just kidding! Tim Hortons is a canadian coffee store that we all go to constantly!!


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## ∞Eternity∞ (Jan 10, 2019)

StarlightAshley said:


> I'm just kidding! Tim Hortons is a canadian coffee store that we all go to constantly!!


Where I live we have Starbucks Kappa


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## StarlightAshley (Jan 10, 2019)

The Supreme God GODSPEED said:


> Where I live we have Starbucks Kappa


We have Starbucks too but they're not as cheap and canadian as Tim Hortons! Also in Canada a buck is called a Loonie. 2 Bucks is called a Twonie.  5 bucks is 5 bucks. A buck is what we call it when a moose kicks you!


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## Mider T (Jan 11, 2019)

What do you guys think about Yeezy?


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## Island (Jan 11, 2019)

Do you consider this to be a good painting?


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## Mider T (Jan 11, 2019)

Island said:


> Do you consider this to be a good painting?


Is this our boy Adolf?


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## Island (Jan 11, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Is this our boy Adolf?


Yes.


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## A Optimistic (Jan 11, 2019)

Nep Nep said:


> I thought Tim Horton's was a store or something @-@



Yeah it's an amazing donut store.


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## Nep Nep (Jan 11, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Is this our boy Adolf?



You're not allowed to like that or you are literally a nazi. 

/sarcasm


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## mali (Jan 11, 2019)

You _can_ note the high standard of execution of a work with respect to a given medium or even style. That really isn't much in the way of positive aesthetic valuation though so I guess you would be gucci if you admired Hitler's painting technique.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 12, 2019)

I do have an opinion to express on this matter, but it is very late at night where I am, and I need sleep, so I shall post it, tomorrow, but, before I log off, what did R. Kelly do that is upsetting everyone? His music is not remotely my style of music, so I do not follow any news about him.



Island said:


> Do you consider this to be a good painting?



That is actually quite a nice painting; why was Hitler rejected from art school? Surely, it was due to his personality, and not his artistic talent?


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## Island (Jan 12, 2019)

DemonDragonJ said:


> That is actually quite a nice painting; why was Hitler rejected from art school? Surely, it was due to his personality, and not his artistic talent?


Supposedly, he was better at drawing buildings than people/scenery. The people critiquing his work told him to apply to the university's architecture school, but since Hitler didn't complete secondary school, he couldn't do that.


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## Mider T (Jan 12, 2019)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I do have an opinion to express on this matter, but it is very late at night where I am, and I need sleep, so I shall post it, tomorrow, but, before I log off, what did R. Kelly do that is upsetting everyone? His music is not remotely my style of music, so I do not follow any news about him.


You're literally 20 years late.


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## Fëanáro (Jan 12, 2019)

I feel like once the artist starts working their views into their work there is no longer any wiggle room left for separating them.
Like if a band starts adding a 'white power' chorus to their songs, you've pretty much exhausted all deniability at that point.



Island said:


> Do you consider this to be a good painting?


No, the proportions are kinda wonky and the colour scheme is trite and uninspired.


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## Harmonie (Jan 12, 2019)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Richard Wagner was anti-Semitic, but he lived centuries ago (when antisemitism was much stronger than it is, today), and has composed some of the greatest music ever written, so I fail to see why his political beliefs should be even remotely relevant, today.



Ah, the good ol' "That's just the way it was back then" excuse. Tell me why, then, do we not learn about the anti-Semitism of other composers from that era? It's because Wagner was noticeably _extreme_.

It may be easy enough for those of us who are not Jewish in any sense to listen to his music, but I can't fault any orchestras and opera houses refusing to perform his music for that reason.



> Tesla was a supporter of eugenics, but his contributions to science should outweigh that belief.



Contributions to science are a completely different matter, and if they are seen to be sound from much experimentation then the biases of the original scientist means nothing. This is completely different from music, which is an art. Any scientific discoveries will be held up, until/unless new findings disprove them. Composed music, on the other hand, can be cast aside. Sorry, Wagner, the English horn solo in Tristan and Isolde is one of the most beautiful things ever, but...

Nevertheless, I don't think anyone is going to erase Wagner from the canon of classical music history just because he was a terrible person, but that doesn't mean that performing venues are wrong to refuse to perform his music. It can relevant enough for that.



> Some of the founders of the United States owned slaves, yet most people today still regard them with the greatest of reverence, so I feel that a person's positive traits should outweigh their negative traits.



There is discussion to be had there, too. I've seen backlash to the founding fathers in recent years, and I can't say I disagree with it. But when we get to this subject we've gone off topic because we're not talking about their art.


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## Island (Jan 12, 2019)

Takaya said:


> No, the proportions are kinda wonky and the colour scheme is trite and uninspired.


I don't know anything about art, so I'mma trust you on that.


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## Magic (Jan 15, 2019)

Island said:


> I don't know anything about art, so I'mma trust you on that.


Well you posted one of his gloomy paintings. It's fine for what it is. But uh telling anyone Hitler painted that is going to make them subconsciously hate the piece de facto ; or love it if they are into that type of emotional baggage and association with Hitler.


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## Ashi (Jan 16, 2019)

If the artist in question is using their work to project or represent their own thoughts and ideas, then no you can't just separate the two.


If Joey Biscuit is propagating SJW rhetoric in his comic then he's an SJW.

Until R. Kelly makes a song about peeing on little girls () then don't feel so bad


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## Raiden (Jan 16, 2019)

I think the line depends on the person. In R Kelly's case, I don't acknowledge his music anymore after what he is alleged to have done.


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