# Madara CQC Challenge



## Alex Payne (Jan 16, 2014)

​ 

*Location:* Chunin Exams Arena
*Knowledge:* Manga for Madara. Full for Challengers.
*Mindset:* IC+Killing Intent
*Restrictions:* Madara can produce black rods and use SM-perks. Everything else is restricted. Including regeneration. He has one eye. 


*Challengers*: 

1) _Uchiha Brothers_. Itachi is restricted to basic Sharingan, bunshins, Katons and tools. Sasuke can use EMS for pre-cog and is restricted to Katons and Chidori Variants. Both have Sauce's Kusanagi Swords. 

2) _Masters_. Gai can activate up to 7th Gate but can't use Asa Kujaku or Hirudora. Kakashi's MS is restricted.

3) _Kumo's Strongest Duo_. Killer B can't use Biju Mode. Raikage is unrestricted. 

4) _Sannin_. SM Jiraiya is restricted to CQC. Tsunade can't use Kuchiyose. Orochimaru can only use his sword, body modifications and regen(but no White Snake form).

5) _Hiraishin, gg_. Tobirama is alive and has no ET. Minato is alive with Shiki Fujin and Summons restricted. Both are tagged by each other.


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## Rocky (Jan 16, 2014)

Stops hard at Gated Gai.


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## fior fior (Jan 16, 2014)

Madara probably won't even make it past round one. Either way, he isn't getting further than round two.


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## tkpirate (Jan 16, 2014)

madara should win round 2,3 and 4.probably will lose in round 5.not sure about round 1.


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## Jagger (Jan 16, 2014)

He stops at round 2.

With just taijutsu alone, Madara isn't capable of surpassing both a Gates user (who should have the same level of speed and greater physical strength) and another skilled ninja at Taijutsu with Sharingan Precog.

Senjutsu is capable of making you significantly in every aspect. However, one of the reasons SM Naruto is a beast in Taijutsu it's because of the deadly Frog Kata which Madara (and Hashirama) lacks.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 16, 2014)

Sasuke already got tooled on and played with by a blind and non-serious Madara, and while I think Itachi is better than his brother, he's not so much better that I don't think Madara could do the same to him without eyes.  With an actual eyeball, he can probably take both of them at once.

In CQC skill, Kakashi isn't that much better than the Sasuke that got beat, and while I certainly think Gated Guy is fast and strong and skilled, I don't think he's going to be that much faster than the Raikage weak Madara could block shots from.  Now normally I see Kakashi supporting Guy like he vs Obito, where Guy handles the up front mess, and Kakashi hangs back sniping with Raikiri kunais and jutsu at good moments, and from blind spots.  But Madara has sage danger and normal sensing perks on top of his EMS precog, and durability that's pretty insane.

I also have to remember that Guy went gates to fight casual Madara, and got more messed up in a few seconds of combat than he did in the entire three day war of battling edos in the mist, fighting bijuus, and triple teaming Obito.  As well as wrestling sharks during gate exhaustion.  Add on to that his new feat of reacting and countering surprise hiraishins and hiraishin giri's (which are, by definition of teleportation, faster than anything Guy can do), and I have to give it to Madara.

I had pause at 3, because Madara could shield against Ei, but couldn't do much else.  Except that was when his powers were, "limited," by edo status, and now he gets a significant boost to his already increased abilities by sage mode.  Black rods will apparently shut down anyone, so I think he can kill Ei with them, and use them as swords to fight Bee's 7 sword style.  Madara does seem to be a master swordsman in his own right, and far superior to Sasuke in that respect anyway.

This one I'd like to think can do it, because the Sannin are all incredibly capable in CQC, with Jiraiya having enhanced strength and sage boosted froggy combat arts, Tsunade's CQC mastery and one shotting capabilities on top of regen, and Orochimaru's regeneration and kusunagi, combined with legendary teamwork and host of surprises.  

Except Madara's rods and stabs can stop edo tensei regeneration, which is by far the strongest regeneration we've seen in the series, and he's capable of all the sensing and surprise hiraishin giri reactions and has EMS sensing on top of sage sensing to avoid, detect, or react to tricks he doesn't see coming.  He's straight out a better sage than Jiraiya as well, and has better rods than the ones that killed him.  So while I really want to say the Sannin win, I think they probably don't.

In the last one, we already know that Madara can defeat Tobirama.  As for defeating Minato the same way, I can't say for sure, but it's probable.  He might well be faster or have a better shunshin than Tobirama, but teleportation is teleportation, and they do it with the same jutsu.  So if Madara can react to one bamflash, he should be able to react to the other.  Now as for how he deals with both of them flashing around in a blue and yellow maelstrom, I'm not sure.  On the one hand, that's a mightily impressive combo.  On the other hand, he dealt with Tobirama rather easily, and didn't seem at all worried.  He was condescending, in fact, and touted how the person once hailed as the fastest in the world, using his most underhanded surprised tactics to strike when the enemy was most vulnerable, really wasn't any threat to him anymore.  So he might just be so much better that even adding in Minato won't be enough to bring him down.


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## tkpirate (Jan 16, 2014)

people are saying madara can't beat gai and kakashi.but how would gai and kakashi hurt madara ?


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## Krippy (Jan 16, 2014)

Madara cant even win round one.


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## Rocky (Jan 16, 2014)

Gai evaporates him like he did the 1000 Kisame-eating sharks.


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## Jizznificent (Jan 16, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Gai evaporates him like he did the 1000 Kisame-eating sharks.


morning peacock and afternoon tiger are restricted.


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## Rocky (Jan 16, 2014)

Jizznificent said:


> morning peacock and afternoon tiger are restricted.




My bad, I read too quickly and only caught Hirodura on the list.

Gai just punches Madara hundreds of times in rapid succession _without _the fireballs.


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## Jad (Jan 16, 2014)

Why do people always forget~ *URA RENGE*! Gai can use it too you know.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 16, 2014)

Hugging a guy who can sprout disruption rods seems like a bad idea.  Not hugging Kimmimaro bad, but still less than good.


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## Jad (Jan 16, 2014)

Ura Renge (Secondary Lotus) is not the hugging one. That is Omote Renge (Primary Lotus). Remember, Ura Renge is the one where Rock Lee treated Gaara like a pinball machine.


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## tkpirate (Jan 16, 2014)

Rocky said:


> My bad, I read too quickly and only caught Hirodura on the list.
> 
> Gai just punches Madara hundreds of times in rapid succession _without _the fireballs.



madara tanked all the attacks from the bijuu's,so he should easily tank all of gai's punches,if gai could hit him.but because madara is faster than gai he probably won't even get hit.


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## tkpirate (Jan 16, 2014)

Jad said:


> Ura Renge (Secondary Lotus) is not the hugging one. That is Omote Renge (Primary Lotus). Remember, Ura Renge is the one where Rock Lee treated Gaara like a pinball machine.



Rock Lee was faster than Gaara.but Gai is slower than Madara,he won't be able to hit him.even if he hits him,Madara can tank it easily.


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## LostSelf (Jan 16, 2014)

Gated Gai kicks his ass. Madara can react to his attacks, but cannot compete for long periods of time with flaming strikes and his superior CqC abilities.


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## Coppur (Jan 16, 2014)

Madara uses off-panel chakra rods no jutsu to solo the competition.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 16, 2014)

Jad said:


> Ura Renge (Secondary Lotus) is not the hugging one. That is Omote Renge (Primary Lotus). Remember, Ura Renge is the one where Rock Lee treated Gaara like a pinball machine.



Oh.  I get them mixed up.  That would definitely be a better choice.

Granted, I still don't think Guy will move as fast as teleportation, so he probably can't ping pong Madara, but Madara being able to react and counter attacks that are teleported onto him really doesn't make sense to begin with.


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## tkpirate (Jan 16, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Gated Gai kicks his ass. Madara can react to his attacks, but cannot compete for long periods of time with flaming strikes and his superior CqC abilities.



madara being faster than gai he can dodge all of gai's attacks,he can tank them too.and few chakra rods will not let the fight go on for much longer.


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## LostSelf (Jan 16, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> madara being faster than gai he can dodge all of gai's attacks,he can tank them too.and few chakra rods will not let the fight go on for much longer.



Base Gai, having days of fighting in the war hanged out in mid-air with Obito and his skills were good enough to avoid to be even touched. The same Obito that was going to oneshot RM Naruto and a stronger version of the Obito that was forcing Minato to use Hiraishin.

Madara is not faster than Gated Gai, he is indeed pretty fast, but what helps him dodge are his reflexes. And while this helps a lot, it would end up being overwhelmed when the opponent brings out super sonic punches with enough skills and flexibility that when you're blocking a hit, he's throwing another one and another one or maneuvering through your attacks skillfully.

Tobirama never showcased such skills, he didn't display any taijutsu skills to compete with Madara, therefore Hiraishingiri was meaningless if Madara kept reacting to his attacks. A different scenario when it comes to Gated Gai's much superior taijutsu.


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## Jad (Jan 16, 2014)

Looks to me like Madara is reacting to Tobirama's advances which would be his striking speed. It's not like Tobirama is moving his hands at Space/Time Jutsu speed.

Gai punches so fast it creates friction with the air to cause fire, you're not going to get a faster attack then that. Also, just because you can notice something, doesn't mean your body can react in time, ala Rock lee vs. Sasuke lecture.


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## LostSelf (Jan 16, 2014)

Jad said:


> Looks to me like Madara is reacting to Tobirama's advances which would be his striking speed. It's not like Tobirama is moving his hands at Space/Time Jutsu speed.
> 
> Gai punches so fast it creates friction with the air to cause fire, your not going to get a faster attack then that. Also, just because you can notice something, doesn't mean your body can react in time, ala Rock lee vs. Sasuke lecture.



Indeed. This was always a misconception. People believed that Minato could appear with his Kunai already stabbed when he attacked, when it's not. You cannot react to teleportation because that's instant. And the use of Hiraishin was always that, teleporting behind your opponent and strike in a position where you cannot defend yourself. No sensing and knowledge and the victim would think the enemy disappeared or moved too fast to be reacted, when it's not.

Madara always reacted to Tobirama's striking speed and not Hiraishin, still a good feat because the jutsu allowed him to appear in a confortable position, but that's that. Gai is more skilled in CqC than Tobirama, and his striking speed is much faster.


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## tkpirate (Jan 16, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Base Gai, having days of fighting in the war hanged out in mid-air with Obito and his skills were good enough to avoid to be even touched. The same Obito that was going to oneshot RM Naruto and a stronger version of the Obito that was forcing Minato to use Hiraishin.
> 
> Madara is not faster than Gated Gai, he is indeed pretty fast, but what helps him dodge are his reflexes. And while this helps a lot, it would end up being overwhelmed when the opponent brings out super sonic punches with enough skills and flexibility that when you're blocking a hit, he's throwing another one and another one or maneuvering through your attacks skillfully.
> 
> Tobirama never showcased such skills, he didn't display any taijutsu skills to compete with Madara, therefore Hiraishingiri was meaningless if Madara kept reacting to his attacks. A different scenario when it comes to Gated Gai's much superior taijutsu.



which obito was going to one shot RM ?wasn't it jinchuuriki obito ?and edo madara was fast enough to fight with BM naruto.and current madara is even faster and has SM sensing.unless you think gated gai is as fast as BM naruto,he can't touch madara.and tobirama may not have great taijutsu skills.but Hiraishingiri should be one of fastest attack in the narutoverse,and madara can dodge a attack like that from his back.also madara has enough durability to tank all the attacks from gai.


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## tkpirate (Jan 17, 2014)

Jad said:


> Looks to me like Madara is reacting to Tobirama's advances which would be his striking speed. It's not like Tobirama is moving his hands at Space/Time Jutsu speed.
> 
> Gai punches so fast it creates friction with the air to cause fire, you're not going to get a faster attack then that. Also, just because you can notice something, doesn't mean your body can react in time, ala Rock lee vs. Sasuke lecture.



in any case hiraishingiri should be one of the fastest attacks in the narutoverse.and edo madara was as fast as BM naruto,and current madara is faster and has SM.do you think gai is as fast as BM naruto.also madara has enough durability to tank these attacks.


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## LostSelf (Jan 17, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> which obito was going to one shot RM ?wasn't it jinchuuriki obito ?and edo madara was fast enough to fight with BM naruto.and current madara is even faster and has SM sensing.unless you think gated gai is as fast as BM naruto,he can't touch madara.and tobirama may not have great taijutsu skills.but Hiraishingiri should be one of fastest attack in the narutoverse,and madara can dodge a attack like that from his back.also madara has enough durability to tank all the attacks from gai.



Here he was going to finish Naruto had Gai not closed the distance quick. Edo Madara never went CqC against BM Naruto, he used Mokuton and Susano'o, nothing implies Madara is as fast either.

Madara didn't dodge Hiraishingiri, Madara dodged Tobirama's striking speed. You can't move faster than teleportation, not even moving at the speed of light, because teleportation is instantly appearing from point A to point B without moving. That's faster than everything, therefore what Madara dodged was Tobirama's attack thanks to his sensing skills.

About tanking i'm not sure. Gai's attacks are not normal.


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## tkpirate (Jan 17, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Here he was going to finish Naruto had Gai not closed the distance quick. Edo Madara never went CqC against BM Naruto, he used Mokuton and Susano'o, nothing implies Madara is as fast either.
> 
> Madara didn't dodge Hiraishingiri, Madara dodged Tobirama's striking speed. You can't move faster than teleportation, not even moving at the speed of light, because teleportation is instantly appearing from point A to point B without moving. That's faster than everything, therefore what Madara dodged was Tobirama's attack thanks to his sensing skills.
> 
> About tanking i'm not sure. Gai's attacks are not normal.



yeah then i guess gai should be atleast as fast as RM naruto.and if you look at that fight,there are few instances where madara and BM naruto fought in CqC.since i'm posting from my mobile i can't link you the scans.but in chap. 601 naruto's BM clone charged at madara with a mini BB,and madara could react to that easily.and the fought BM,bee and gai at once and didn't got blitz.


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## tkpirate (Jan 17, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Madara didn't dodge Hiraishingiri, Madara dodged Tobirama's striking speed. You can't move faster than teleportation, not even moving at the speed of light, because teleportation is instantly appearing from point A to point B without moving. That's faster than everything, therefore what Madara dodged was Tobirama's attack thanks to his sensing skills.
> 
> About tanking i'm not sure. Gai's attacks are not normal.



OK we can atleast say that madara is faster than tobirama,who was once considered fastest shinobi.and if madara can tank bijuu's attacks he can surely tank gai's attacks.


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## Veracity (Jan 17, 2014)

Madara absolutely destroys team one. Right to the rape shed they go. Edo Madara alone could react to V2 Ay. So this Madara can;
- React to V2 Ay
- Tank an attack with the full force of V2 Ay
- React to literally the fastest move in the Manga( Lvl 2 FTG with arm speed superior to KCM Minato and is faster then the attack that nearly blitzed Juubito)
- Can blitz SM Naruto
- Can power through a Kyuubi cloaked army( so basically more taijustu firepower then the combined Katon of him and Obito )

And you gave him chakra rods in which he one paneled a ninja that could react faster then KCM Minato and could catch Juubito off guard  ?

Yeah I'm seriously seeing him beating gated Gai pretty comfortably. Gated Gai isn't as fast as an FTG user or V2 Ay. I don't see him even having the chance to hit Madara, while Madara was easily able to catch Tobirama with his rods, and Tobirama posses this level of shunshin ; Here and FTG.


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## blk (Jan 17, 2014)

Rocky said:


> My bad, I read too quickly and only caught Hirodura on the list.
> 
> Gai just punches Madara hundreds of times in rapid succession _without _the fireballs.



A weakened Madara was able to:

- outspeed Gaara's sand [1] (the same that was fast enough for block Enton and Ei's attack);

- block the kick of the strongest shinobi, appearing in front of him at light speed [2];

- easily defend himself from the shinobi with the second fastest Shunshin (which is extremely fast even if he didn't used it) while being distracted by another attack [3];

- can react to the extremely fast Jinton [4];

- easily block the attack of the fastest ninja of the manga [5] (that is, again, very fast even without Shunshin).

Now, this thread is about _living-SM_ Madara, which is multiple times faster, stronger and more durable than Edo Madara.
Infact, a _non-SM and blind_ Madara was able to _effortlessy blitz SM Naruto_ (known for his greater-than-average speed and insane sensing abilities that made him able to react to Juubito), along with other people [6].
Someone with this speed alone should be able to easily react (if not outright keep up) to gated Gai.

Then, on top of the above, add the SM sensing (that, as i already wrote, makes one able to react to Juubito), increase in speed, strength and durability [7] and the precognition ability of his dojutsu (which is a more upgraded version of the one that made Sasuke able to anticipate Juubito's movements).

Yeah, Gai isn't going to blitz anyone here nor his punches are going to hurt Madara.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 17, 2014)

> - block the punch of the strongest shinobi, appearing in front of him at light speed [2];



I forgot about this.  That wasn't Tsunade or Ei's speed he put up a guard against, it was lightening speeds.  Plus he was blinded bythe flash of light thery were riding.  That's, yeah.  Guy is cool, but he can't tele-kick.


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## Bonly (Jan 17, 2014)

I'd say that Madara might stop at round three or four with SM and taijutsu alone.


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## LostSelf (Jan 17, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> yeah then i guess gai should be atleast as fast as RM naruto.and if you look at that fight,there are few instances where madara and BM naruto fought in CqC.since i'm posting from my mobile i can't link you the scans.but in chap. 601 naruto's BM clone charged at madara with a mini BB,and madara could react to that easily.and the fought BM,bee and gai at once and didn't got blitz.



Blocking an attack doesn't mean you're as fast. He blocked Tsunade appearing from lightspeed (However in this case, he was warned by the flashing light) and blocked Ei's attack when he was an Edo, but he's not faster than that. 

I'm not saying Madara is going to get blitzed, he cannot be blitzed by anybody (We'll see 8th gate blitzing ). Yeah, Madara fought them, but not in pure CqC. He would've gotten his ass kicked and sodomized if he did that. Against them he used Susano'o, Mokuton and other jutsus as well.

Tobirama was hailed as the fastest Shinobi due to Hiraishing, not his base speed, however, i'm not saying that Gai is faster than Madara either, or faster than Hiraishin, but i bet he can keep up with Madara's striking speed, maneuver through his attacks with his skills if he, in base and tired, maneuvered through attacks that forced reflexives shinobis like Minato to teleport, plus attacking with super sonic attacks on top of all that is gonna be diferent than countering Tobirama's stricking speed.

I'm not saying Gai is going to overwhelm Madara with speed alone, i bet Madara can react to all of his attacks. However, Gai doesn't only has speed here, sooner or later (If he's not stabbed), he will outmaneuver Madara with his skills in CqC and hit him, and if he hits him once, he can keep hitting him.

Now Madara surviving the Bijuus attacks, he had Susano'o. Still, that was a pretty good durability feat.


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## tkpirate (Jan 17, 2014)

no,madara tanked bijuu's attack without susano'o.also he stabbed Hashirama pretty quickly.stabbed tobirama even quicker.he won't take too much time on gai.


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## Turrin (Jan 17, 2014)

He was able to physical react to Tobirama ambushing him w/ Hiraishingiri; none of the opponents in round 1-4 are as fast as Tobirama's Hiraishingiri ambush. So Madara should be able to physical react to them without much issue and also should have the speed advantage over them, additionally while some of them have greater physical strength than Madara's has displayed, so they might overwhelm his guard (B, Ei, SM J-man, Gate Gai), we saw Madara tank blows from Bijuu, relatively unscathed, so even if he does misjudge their strength and take a hit he'll be fine at the end of the day. Additionally just because Madara hasn't shown that level of strength doesn't mean he's not been indicate to have it considering he possess Senjutsu himself; and Hashirama's Senjutsu nonetheless. Given this I think it's only a matter of time before Madara overwhelms these opponents and stabs black rods into them; some may take longer than others, but Madara will still come out victorious in the end.

In Scenario 5, he looses. I do not think Madara defeated Tobirama w/ physical skills alone, I believe that he used the same Jutsu he utilized against Sasuke (probably Rinbo Hengoku) to catch Tobirama off guard long enough to stab him w/ a black rod. This is because of the fact that we already saw Tobirama use FTG to evade Madara's physical strike at the last second, so it would be quite strange if he suddenly was unable to do so later on. Plus here Tobirama is alive and the implication is that Tobirama was even faster when alive. So quite honestly I see Tobirama alone being able to solo w/ FTG, but certainly adding Minato in makes this a stomp.


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## LostSelf (Jan 17, 2014)

Ohh yeah, Biju Pinball. I forgot .

Well, that changes my mind.


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## Garcher (Jan 17, 2014)

The first one Madara gets fodderized, that's for sure.


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## richard lewis (Jan 17, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> no,madara tanked bijuu's attack without susano'o.also he stabbed Hashirama pretty quickly.stabbed tobirama even quicker.he won't take too much time on gai.



when was this?


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## αce (Jan 17, 2014)

Gai's punches aren't doing anything to Madara. How quick are people to forget that he tanked bijuu hits? This is besides the fact that gated Gai isn't even significantly faster than Madara anyways. Punches alone are not doing anything to Madara.

He gets sage mode perks so I'm just going to go ahead and declare Gai dead the moment Madara lands a black rod.


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## sanninme rikudo (Jan 17, 2014)

He stops at one if not definitely 2


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## Lurko (Jan 17, 2014)

Gai gets raped lol at you people,  I can't see him beating A and B or the Hirashin gang.


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## tkpirate (Jan 17, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> when was this?



he tanked those bijuu's attack in chapter 658.


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## Blu-ray (Jan 17, 2014)

After seeing how he manhandled Tobirama, I question how it's possible Sasuke even stabbed him. I thought it was a genuine hit, but it's clear that he took it on purpose. Anywho, Madara stops and Tobirama and Minato.


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## Jagger (Jan 17, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> After seeing how he manhandled Tobirama, I question how it's possible Sasuke even stabbed him. I thought it was a genuine hit, but it's clear that he took it on purpose. Anywho, Madara stops and Tobirama and Minato.


Tobirama was once hailed as the fastest shinobi, not the most skilled one in Taijutsu. Sasuke's skills with his Taijutus and Kenjutsu seem to be superior than what Tobirama has shown even with his FTG.

Even then, he lacks the Sharingan, a very useful tool when it comes to CQC as it allows the user to predict the enemy's movement and Madara praised Sasuke for his moves and said the reason because of it is due his type of Mangekyou.

It was probably on purpose he took that hit on purpose to talk with Sasuke, but Sasuke had some kind of advantages over Tobirama.


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## Veracity (Jan 17, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I forgot about this.  That wasn't Tsunade or Ei's speed he put up a guard against, it was lightening speeds.  Plus he was blinded bythe flash of light thery were riding.  That's, yeah.  Guy is cool, but he can't tele-kick.





Jagger said:


> Tobirama was once hailed as the fastest shinobi, not the most skilled one in Taijutsu. Sasuke's skills with his Taijutus and Kenjutsu seem to be superior than what Tobirama has shown even with his FTG.
> 
> Even then, he lacks the Sharingan, a very useful tool when it comes to CQC as it allows the user to predict the enemy's movement and Madara praised Sasuke for his moves and said the reason because of it is due his type of Mangekyou.
> 
> It was probably on purpose he took that hit on purpose to talk with Sasuke, but Sasuke had some kind of advantages over Tobirama.



Jagger it's not that, it's the fact that he could dodge the fastest move in the entire manga almost causally and caught off guard. True Sasuke is superior in CQC but Tobirama possesses FTG combinations that far exceed Sasukes speed level. If Madara can dodge an FTG Slash then it's confirmed that Madara let himself get hit.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm reasonably certain Madara let himself get stabbed in the arm to disarm Sasuke over every other thing he could have done for the same reason he decided to leap into 9 Bijuu backed by 3 kage level opponents and do nothing else but see what happened.  Which was that he was so hyped up on Hashirama's regeneration and being able to bleed his own blood, that he just took hits for the sake of taking hits and regenerating.  If this were a normal character, I'd think that sounds completely bonkers, but Madara is completely insane and even said himself that he's been getting carried away with the regen, and became extremely sloppy because of it. ... and then said he'd fight seriously for one second and one-shotted all the bijuu plus two kage level ninja.  So it's not unreasonable to believe that he's been healing just to heal, and that Sasuke didn't earn that shot with superior ken/taijutsu, (Remember that Tobirama's main weapon through all the flashbacks was a sword, and as a Hokage and better of Madara's brother, probably a top tier master class swordsman anyway) and Madara just checked the sword that way because stabbed or unstabbed doesn't make a difference to him.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 18, 2014)

A blind Madara was capable of instantly taking down a group of shinobi in one single movement, and then was later able to dance around Sasuke's kenjutsu attacks. If you look at the panel closely, Madara purposefully stuck out his arm to get stabbed by Sasuke 1 - presumably to get a 'feel' of his Sharingan and to talk to him. What ever the case, it's clear that even while blind, there was a huge gap between him and Sasuke which could only have widened now that Madara has an eye back. Itachi is more skilled than Sasuke, but I don't think that's enough to make up for the difference between the two brothers and Madara. I'm not even going to pretend that their ability to use katons will make an iota of a difference here. 

The two masters may fare a bit better, since they're both more skilled than Sasuke and Itachi. But Kakashi isn't substantially better than Sasuke either, and while he has more martial arts prowess, lacks the range Sasuke's sword granted him. I'm also not sure how he could actually hurt Madara here. Raikiri works, assuming he can land it, but anything else likely wouldn't do anything between Kakashi's comparatively poor physical strength, Madara's new sage abilities and the fact he's already shown to be able to take and block hits from Ei, of all people. Beside that, he can stop Kakashi from using it just by impaling him with a chakra rod, or parry it with one.

Gai may be faster, but I'm inclined to believe Madara is more than capable of reacting to him, since he's blocked attacks from faster people 2. It doesn't help that we've also seen him, Naruto and the Hachibi all fight Madara together, and Gai is more or less half-dead in the aftermath 3. It's worth noting that Susano'o was nowhere to be seen here. I'm also of the belief that Tobirama's hiraishingiri and follow up attack was far faster than anything Gai is capable of. The Gates don't help him outspeed Madara here; it helps him _keep up_ with him.

Ei and Bee do better, but I don't think they can win either. A weaker version of Madara could react and block Tsunade's attack, despite her teleporting into battle 4 and being stronger than Ei. Not that he hasn't blocked attacks from the Raikage too 5. If you now consider the fact that all of Madara's physical abilities are augmented by sage mode and scale it up appropriately, it should be clear now that Ei won't be able to do anything. Physical attacks might not hurt him, but chakra rods definitely would, and he's nailed superior shinobi down with them before.

Killer Bee presents a different issue in that he uses raiton-enhanced swords and is unpredictable in his movements, which has taken Sharingan-users off guard before. But Madara, as mentioned above, is a lot better than Sasuke and given that his chakra rods have parried enton arrows before, I don't think he'd have a huge difficulty with blocking Bee's sword strokes. The duo's legendary teamwork might present an issue, but I don't think that's enough to overcome the gap in strength.

The Sannin probably also lose, but might give Madara some trouble. Jiraiya is hard to kill, Tsunade is hard to kill and Orochimaru is also hard to kill. All three have nigh perfect unison with each other and both Tsunade and Orochimaru are more than capable of hurting Madara here. I imagine their sheer numbers and teamwork would be able to make up for the gap in speed.

But Madara's weapon here bypasses conventional durability. It strips the user's ability to mould chakra, removes movement and, presumably as a consequence of the first point, negates regeneration as well. I think that if any of the three got hit by the rods in the same way Hashirama and Tobirama did, they'd be down for good. And while their teamwork should be brilliant, Madara was essentially able to react to two simultaneous attacks (two rounds of hiraishin from Tobirama) all coming from surprise angles and blind spots. I don't think the three can win here.

The last one is iffy for me. Tobirama and Minato have deadlier and more versatile teamwork than the Sannin, in my opinion and while Madara has reacted and defeated Tobirama leisurely, Minato is faster and two hiraishin users is obviously a lot better than one. I think they can win this, but Madara was countering Tobirama so casually I'm not sure if adding Minato could help that much.


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## Lurko (Jan 18, 2014)

I take back what I said I forgot that Mads parried Alice's enton arrow with a chakra rod, only Hirashin gang have a chance, damn Madara is overwhelming! !


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## Jad (Jan 18, 2014)

> Gai may be faster, but I'm inclined to believe Madara is more than capable of reacting to him, since he's blocked attacks from faster people 2. It doesn't help that we've also seen him, Naruto and the Hachibi all fight Madara together, and Gai is more or less half-dead in the aftermath 3. It's worth noting that Susano'o was nowhere to be seen here. I'm also of the belief that Tobirama's hiraishingiri and follow up attack was far faster than anything Gai is capable of. The Gates don't help him outspeed Madara here; it helps him keep up with him.



Madara reacted to a Naruto that was talking to him (yelling). The initial jump may have been that 'yellow flash' speed he shows, but you can clearly see that it slowed down as he was falling down (since he was yelling at Madara in mid-attack), so that should suggest he wasn't at that continued speed [1]. It also doesn't help to make your point when you choose to show Gai beaten alongside Hachibi by Madara, when that exchange was clearly off paneled, and had his full arsenal to use at his leisure, unlike this thread. Also Tobirama is not faster then Gai's gated speed (I'll point out the 6th), just because you show Madara reacting to the "Thunder God Slash". If you can take the time, look over this thread, the poster clearly points out how FTG had nothing to do with the move []. 

Gai's striking speed with no cloak (raiton or kyuubi) is the fastest a person has shown to punch in the manga (in-fact, doesn't matter, Gai even when put up against Kyuubi Naruto or Ei's raiton-punching speed, is still faster). Considering Kishi's manga lore as explained by Kisame's dialogue and the Databook, is Gai's movement is so fast he ignites the air on fire. Does Tobirama ignire the air on fire with his strike? Something Madara has not shown to dodge in mid-CQC, which he is limited in this situation.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

So the jutsu he used to stop Tobirama and Sasuke in midair is restricted too?


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## Jad (Jan 18, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So the jutsu he used to stop Tobirama and Sasuke in midair is restricted too?



Restrictions: Madara can produce black rods and use SM-perks. *Everything else is restricted. Including regeneration.* He has one eye. 

I'd say it is


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## LostSelf (Jan 18, 2014)

Even though i'm not saying that Gai wins here, i don't know how him being injured along with Bee and the others has something to do here. I seriously doubt that he fought against BM Naruto, Hachibi and Gated Gai without ninjutsu, without Susano'o, etc. Just because he didn't have it up when he was showed doesn't mean he never used it.

Edo Madara was not able to compete in taijutsu only against Gai, nor Bee by his recent showings. Especially if those two fought together, let alone Hachibi. So i fail to see how a Madara that was using ninjutsu and MS/EMS has something to do with a Madara that's only allowed to use taijutsu, against a taijutsu master. 

Also, there's the possibility that Madara defeated Tobirama with that jutsu he used on Sasuke. Because we saw Tobirama reacting to his attacks and dodging them with Hiraishin, and like it has been pointed out, Madara reacted to Tobirama's striking speed and not Hiraishingiri. You just don't react to instantaneous. And that was thanks to his sensing skills granted by SM or Rinnegan.


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## Jagger (Jan 18, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> in any case hiraishingiri should be one of the fastest attacks in the narutoverse.and edo madara was as fast as BM naruto,and current madara is faster and has SM.do you think gai is as fast as BM naruto.also madara has enough durability to tank these attacks.


Edo Madara has never been shown to be faster than BM Naruto.

He did react to Naruto's linear and predictable attack, but that doesn't mean he's as fast as him. It's like saying Sasuke's speed is as good as the Raikage's since he was able dodge his attack just fine.

Not only that, but Naruto rarely uses his full speed.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

Jad said:


> Restrictions: Madara can produce black rods and use SM-perks. *Everything else is restricted. Including regeneration.* He has one eye.
> 
> I'd say it is



In which case Madara could take everyone, but not as easily as he did with Tobirama and Sasuke for obvious reasons.


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## tkpirate (Jan 18, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Edo Madara has never been shown to be faster than BM Naruto.
> 
> He did react to Naruto's linear and predictable attack, but that doesn't mean he's as fast as him. It's like saying Sasuke's speed is as good as the Raikage's since he was able dodge his attack just fine.
> 
> Not only that, but Naruto rarely uses his full speed.



madara can react to BM naruto's attack from close range.it is enough to say he is as fast as him.and sasuke wasn't able to react to all of raikage's attacks.and as far as i remember he never landed a hit on raikage.madara was able to land hits on naruto morethan once.and naruto not using his full speed is your assumption.and we all know that madara is lazy.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 18, 2014)

Madara reacted to Tsunade who appeared in the speed of light... Madara managed to react to A in the last minute better than Sasuke/Minato* did... *and* he reacted to BM Naruto's attacks.

It is safe to assume BM Naruto's speed won't be an issue for Madara.

*Minato used Hiraishin whereas Madara could actually block.


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## Veracity (Jan 18, 2014)

Jad said:


> Madara reacted to a Naruto that was talking to him (yelling). The initial jump may have been that 'yellow flash' speed he shows, but you can clearly see that it slowed down as he was falling down (since he was yelling at Madara in mid-attack), so that should suggest he wasn't at that continued speed [1]. It also doesn't help to make your point when you choose to show Gai beaten alongside Hachibi by Madara, when that exchange was clearly off paneled, and had his full arsenal to use at his leisure, unlike this thread. Also Tobirama is not faster then Gai's gated speed (I'll point out the 6th), just because you show Madara reacting to the "Thunder God Slash". If you can take the time, look over this thread, the poster clearly points out how FTG had nothing to do with the move [].
> 
> Gai's striking speed with no cloak (raiton or kyuubi) is the fastest a person has shown to punch in the manga (in-fact, doesn't matter, Gai even when put up against Kyuubi Naruto or Ei's raiton-punching speed, is still faster). Considering Kishi's manga lore as explained by Kisame's dialogue and the Databook, is Gai's movement is so fast he ignites the air on fire. Does Tobirama ignire the air on fire with his strike? Something Madara has not shown to dodge in mid-CQC, which he is limited in this situation.​



What? Lighting the air on fire does not mean he has the fastest punch by any mean. It's just an over exaggerated feat that mostly shows his taijustu skill. Lee can light the air on fire with his strikes yet he strikes slower then many opponents. If anything both Tobirama and Minato have a way faster arm strike then Gai.

Edit; Another added effect would be Lee doing this to the ground ; 1

And Juubito leaving the ground perfectly intact ; 1

And the fact that AT is a faster punch then MP, yet it doesn't light the air on fire.


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## LostSelf (Jan 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> What? Lighting the air on fire does not mean he has the fastest punch by any mean. It's just an over exaggerated feat that mostly shows his taijustu skill. Lee can light the air on fire with his strikes yet he strikes slower then many opponents. If anything both Tobirama and Minato have *a way faster arm strike then Gai.*



I hope you can prove that.


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## Veracity (Jan 18, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I hope you can prove that.



An exaggeration but it is faster.


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## LostSelf (Jan 18, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> An exaggeration but it is faster.



That. In what do you support this?


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## Veracity (Jan 18, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> That. In what do you support this?



Base Minato being able to place a resegnan between Obitos shoulder blades without him reacting, and him being able to move his Kunai fast enough to block a Juubito swing.

Tobirama being able to FTG warp his attacks back at him fast enough that Juubito could not physically react and had to activate his black shield in the Nic' of time. Him also begin able to move his arm faster then KCM Minato.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 18, 2014)

Minato moved a kunai from his side up to Ei's head when Ei was microns away from Minato's faces in his fastest shunshin.  The fact that the air didn't explode with fire doesn't mean that Guy punches faster than that, it just means Minato, or Ei, don't have the taijutsu technique to properly punch out physics when they moves, the same way Tsunade is a harder hitter than Guy, even though tigers don't come out of her hands.  It's the way Guy punches just as much as how fast he punches that causes the jutsu.

Tobirama's hiraishin-giri appears to be some kind of shunshin slash out of hirashin.  How it works or what it does is iffy and unexplained, but Tobirama is and has been more or less portrayed to be Minato level at things, and did stuff like tag Juubito in a way unknown to all other parties while he was getting destroyed from performing another attack at him.


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## LostSelf (Jan 18, 2014)

Tobirama's Hiraishin speed is not his striking speed. He teleported thanks to the mark he put on Obito. 

Minato's handspeed wasn't enough for this and Sasuke had enough time to react to it and put up Susano'o. He wasn't even able to finish his arm swing to teleport with the black ball.

Now, for Gai:

Being a considerable distance away from Naruto (Scan below), and after Madara's strike was this dam close from striking Naruto, just after that he made the handseals for Hirudora, wich punch covered the entire distance between them before Madara could even touch Naruto in that close distance.

That's much better than everything Minato and Tobirama have done without the help of Hiraishin. And that was a beaten up Gai who couldn't even move properly.

Minato almost striking Ei doesn't help his "case" at all. Unless we assume that Killer Bee's attacks are way faster than Minato's.


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## Veracity (Jan 18, 2014)

Yeah no. Tobirama still had to slam the orb into Juubitos back as indicated here ; distance
He was actually able to FTG there and grab Obito by the shoulder with his left arm then Completley swing his right arm around and slam the orb into him. Mind you that technique is slower then FTG slash.

KCM Minato was also able to move his Kunai to block V2 Juubito who is the fastest entity in the manga ; distance

Sasuke reacting is a Sussano reaction feat. A feat for Sasuke basically. You can't underate the feat cause Sasuke was so speedy at the time. 

Gais feat isn't as impressive to me Tbh. And that's his fastest punch. All the other of his punches are FAR slower.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 18, 2014)

I don't think all ninja are operating at their maximum capacity at all times in all scenarios.  Otherwise I and you would be claiming Tsunade is faster than Raikage because she moved and intercepted Madara's fireballs before the Raikage even began to move, and we're not.  So saying that Minato has slow hand speed because Sasuke put up Susano before him doesn't convince me that Minato has slow arms.

I also think that if you're shunshining while you attack, your movement speed becomes your attack speed.  Much like a lancer on a horse, the lance he's attacking with is moving at the speed of the horse, and isn' dependent on how fast the lancer can move his arm off of the horse.  We saw this in the Sakura vs Ino fight, where even though they were equals in taijutsu, and Ino held a databook edge in speed, Sakura shunshin punched her in the face.  Albeit she had a distraction, but Sakura's shunshin became her attack speed for that one punch, and it far exceeded the speed and power of every other punch or kick she threw in that match.

Now if people want to think that Guy has faster arms faster than the fastest men living and dead because he's Guy and they prefer it that way, then that's fine.  He's a fast guy and a taijutsu master, so I can accept that.  I can accept it for the same reason I accept that Minato has the fastest hands, because his single scharacter trait is being the fastest of the fast, and it just makes sense to me that he would be the fasted or close to it at whatever things he does, be it shunshin, hand seals, running, or striking, and that Tobirama is essentially the same because their core style is, essentially the same.  

However I think that even if Guy is faster in that aspect, then it wouldn't be so much so than in situations where Minato or Tobirama have clearly failed, that the difference in his attack speed would allow him to succeed.  When it comes to Madara, this is definitely one of those situations.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 18, 2014)

Also it isn't almost strking Ei that's impressive.

It's how he moved the kunai into his blind spot to set up the strike in the first place.

The one in his hand here, that's behind Ei's back before he flickers out.

Somehow Minato got that kunai from his waist, to behind Ei's back, and he didn't do it with shunshin or hiraishin.  That leaves arm and striking speed.

The thing with Bee was whatever.  Kind of irrelevant to whole point of the fight, which I think was showing that Minato is the fastest ever, to be honest.  I suppose that transforming into a bijuu happened pretty darn quick anyway.  Bee went Hachibi in the fight, and filled up a valley with his oxtopus self.  But whatever.  Bee's tentacle is the fastest move in the universe, at the expense of being fodder to kunai and shuriken.  That's a fair trade. 

Or it's not.  I didn't discount Guy's feat on the basis that a Kakashi who was chakra exhausted 15 chapters and 20 jutsu ago, slashed up, and kneed in the face, got up from his back to bust out another hyper speed raikiri in a fashion that made no sense.  Especially not when we later found out that a restored Kakashi and Obito share roughly the same speed, so the idea that Kakashi could cross a larger gap than a charging Obito when tired and unprepared is complete nonsense.  Let Bee do what Bee does, and Kakashi do what Kakashi does, and let's worry about what Minatobirama and Guy can do.


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## LostSelf (Jan 19, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Yeah no. Tobirama still had to slam the orb into Juubitos back as indicated here ; literally out of fucking nowhere
> He was actually able to FTG there and grab Obito by the shoulder with his left arm then Completley swing his right arm around and slam the orb into him. Mind you that technique is slower then FTG slash.



No, Tobirama teleported and left the black ball behind Obito and left. I don't see him slamming the ball against Juubito's back or anything. The ball was just going to explode and he teleported it. This is Hiraishin, not his handseals.



> KCM Minato was also able to move his Kunai to block V2 Juubito who is the fastest entity in the manga ; literally out of fucking nowhere



Minato blocked nothing. He was the one blocked



> Sasuke reacting is a Sussano reaction feat. A feat for Sasuke basically. You can't underate the feat cause Sasuke was so speedy at the time.



Sasuke reacted, touched Naruto and formed his arm before Minato could even touch his right shoulder... 



> Gais feat isn't as impressive to me Tbh. And that's his fastest punch. All the other of his punches are FAR slower.



His other punches are considered as super sonic, do you think Minato's strikes are super sonic when even kid Obito reacted to his attacks?


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## LostSelf (Jan 19, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I don't think all ninja are operating at their maximum capacity at all times in all scenarios.  Otherwise I and you would be claiming Tsunade is faster than Raikage because she moved and intercepted Madara's fireballs before the Raikage even began to move, and we're not.  So saying that Minato has slow hand speed because Sasuke put up Susano before him doesn't convince me that Minato has slow arms.



It's fine and i agree with that. It's logical as well since i doubt Sasuke has faster hand speed than Minato, let alone KCM.



> I also think that if you're shunshining while you attack, your movement speed becomes your attack speed.  Much like a lancer on a horse, the lance he's attacking with is moving at the speed of the horse, and isn' dependent on how fast the lancer can move his arm off of the horse.  We saw this in the Sakura vs Ino fight, where even though they were equals in taijutsu, and Ino held a databook edge in speed, Sakura shunshin punched her in the face.  Albeit she had a distraction, but Sakura's shunshin became her attack speed for that one punch, and it far exceeded the speed and power of every other punch or kick she threw in that match.



Agreed.



> Now if people want to think that Guy has faster arms faster than the fastest men living and dead because he's Guy and they prefer it that way, then that's fine.  He's a fast guy and a taijutsu master, so I can accept that.  I can accept it for the same reason I accept that Minato has the fastest hands, because his single scharacter trait is being the fastest of the fast, and it just makes sense to me that he would be the fasted or close to it at whatever things he does, be it shunshin, hand seals, running, or striking, and that Tobirama is essentially the same because their core style is, essentially the same.



I don't think Gai's hand speed is faster because he's guy. I think he is because his hand speed has been said to be super sonic (scan in my quote above to Likes Boss) were Minato's attack have been reacted before. Even though this is Obito and his warping is near instant, a man with super sonic handspeed wouldn't have had much troubles replicating this. As you see, he barely had time, and even with Hiraishin, he couldn't dodge the entire blast without getting hurt (Even if just a bit).



> However I think that even if Guy is faster in that aspect, then it wouldn't be so much so than in situations where Minato or Tobirama have clearly failed, that the difference in his attack speed would allow him to succeed.  When it comes to Madara, this is definitely one of those situations.


[/QUOTE]

In my opinion, i've never seen Minato or Tobirama as stricking speed demons, mostly because they rely on getting into a good position with Hiraishin where Gai's have been even noted to be extremely fast. And the hype they have of being the fastest shinobis comes from Hiraishin and not their physical speed. But you have a fair point.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Also it isn't almost strking Ei that's impressive.
> 
> It's how he moved the kunai into his blind spot to set up the strike in the first place.
> 
> ...



How i saw or understood here before, was that the Kunai Minato has in his hands was left behind. However, how he left it behind Ei's back is weird to me, i admit that. But now that i look better, I don't think he threw it before teleporting with Ei being that near, otherwise his speed should be even bigger than Ei's, also, to put that Kunai behind Ei's back at high speeds wouldn't have been possible because Minato would've thrown it with enough force to send that kunai flying all over the place, too high.

My explanation to this is that Minato threw the one he had in his hand when Ei stopped and his punch missed. In my opinion this wouldn't be a feat to compare it with Asa Kujaku if Ei wasn't moving anymore when the Kunai appeared with him.



> The thing with Bee was whatever.  Kind of irrelevant to whole point of the fight, which I think was showing that Minato is the fastest ever, to be honest.  I suppose that transforming into a bijuu happened pretty darn quick anyway.  Bee went Hachibi in the fight, and filled up a valley with his oxtopus self.  But whatever.  Bee's tentacle is the fastest move in the universe, at the expense of being fodder to kunai and shuriken.  That's a fair trade.



My explanation to this would be that Bee decoded Minato's Hiraishin pattern and could counter attack in time to save Ei. I had that in mind when i said Bee could move fast enough because it still not fast enough by feats to compare it with MP.



> Or it's not.  I didn't discount Guy's feat on the basis that a Kakashi who was chakra exhausted 15 chapters and 20 jutsu ago, slashed up, and kneed in the face, got up from his back to bust out another hyper speed raikiri in a fashion that made no sense.  Especially not when we later found out that a restored Kakashi and Obito share roughly the same speed, so the idea that Kakashi could cross a larger gap than a charging Obito when tired and unprepared is complete nonsense.  Let Bee do what Bee does, and Kakashi do what Kakashi does, and let's worry about what Minatobirama and Guy can do.



Kakashi was pretty close to Naruto. And he could've began to move before he charged Raikiri. Gai, on the other hand, only had his hands free and was in worse condition than Kakashi, plus being a lot farther away from Naruto than Kakashi was.


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## Veracity (Jan 19, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> No, Tobirama teleported and left the black ball behind Obito and left. I don't see him slamming the ball against Juubito's back or anything. The ball was just going to explode and he teleported it. This is Hiraishin, not his handseals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I disagree. But I guess that's up to your own interpretation. However, Tobirama still had to move his body in that position considering he was in a complete different position when he FTG'd. I also find it hard to believe he FTG'd already touching Obito. Also FTG slash is a faster attack nonetheless.

You seriously cannot tell from the panel. But we know for a fact that Obito had moved considering he was definitely not in this position when he blocked ; super sonic
It's safest to assume Minato matched his speed.

Okay this is just terrible and you know it  That's like saying that Kakashi isn't impressive in CQC because PTS Sasuke matched his skill for a second. It's obvious that Minato absolutely toys with his students like any other Jounin does. Minato had the arm speed to slam a resengan between a Kamui warp, and flick a Kunai in the air inches before V2 Ay hit him. I wasn't even talking about Base Minato but rather KCM, who could stop a point blank Kakashi stab from 30+ meters away with his shunshin alone.


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## LostSelf (Jan 19, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I disagree. But I guess that's up to your own interpretation. However, Tobirama still had to move his body in that position considering he was in a complete different position when he FTG'd. I also find it hard to believe he FTG'd already touching Obito. Also FTG slash is a faster attack nonetheless.



Appearing in a different position doesn't mean he had to move, Minato appeared in a different position when he dodged Ei. Thing is that Tobirama managed all this with Hiraishin, like i've been saying. 



> You seriously cannot tell from the panel. But we know for a fact that Obito had moved considering he was definitely not in this position when he blocked ; super sonic
> It's safest to assume Minato matched his speed.



I don't know what you're talking about. Minato was running towards him with a Kunai, Obito's rod was clearly in a defensive position and Minato's in an attackiong position. Obito was in almost the same position save the arm he moved to block. It's being pretty clear there, unless we assume Obito strikes moving his rod only with his forearm. This would be silly.



> Okay this is just terrible and you know it  That's like saying that Kakashi isn't impressive in CQC because PTS Sasuke matched his skill for a second.



Tell me yourself, didn't Sasuke activated Susano'o and touched Naruto before Minato grabbed the black ball?



> It's obvious that Minato absolutely toys with his students like any other Jounin does. Minato had the arm speed to slam a resengan between a Kamui warp, and flick a Kunai in the air inches before V2 Ay hit him. I wasn't even talking about Base Minato but rather KCM, who could stop a point blank Kakashi stab from 30+ meters away with his shunshin alone.



Thanks to Hiraishin that allowed him to get a blindspot. Because we see Obito easly reacting to his hand speed all the fight and even forcing the man to teleport.

And shunshing has nothing to do with handspeed/Stricking speed. If you are debating on how Tobirama or Minato are faster than Gai including Hiraishin then i will agree. I'm talking about moving your arms and throwing punches _only_.


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## Veracity (Jan 19, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Appearing in a different position doesn't mean he had to move, Minato appeared in a different position when he dodged Ei. Thing is that Tobirama managed all this with Hiraishin, like i've been saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm pretty The FTG user has to move in that position. Are you saying they can just FTG to a person in any position they chose ?

Obito saw Minato at a distance, and moved his staff to block it. Minato obviosuly doesn't run with his Kunai in front of him , rather with his arms behind his back like a ninja. He had to get close to swing his Kunai and in the panel, they both move and hit at the same time. You can't say Minato moved earlier, because I the panel they moved the same time, meaning they speed was matched.

Sasuke never touched Naruto. His arms are in the same position they were in in the top panel ; super sonic
And Sasuke just has insane Sussano activation. And even if his hand did touch Naruto, then I guess that's a feat for Sasuke. 

That's true I suppose. Doesn't change the fact that he can flick Kunai in the air before V2 Ay can strike him.

The problem is you have to move arms when you shunshin. This isn't debatable like FTG. It's a solid thing. You can't Completle a top tier shunshin feat without having he arm speed to accommodate it. 
Ay starts his dash off with his arms down and moves his arms during his shunshin; super sonic
Furthermore when he gets to his destination, he still has to swing his arms. You could have the fastest shunshin in the entire manga, but if you can't swing fast enough, then anyone can dodge.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 19, 2014)

Since we seem pretty cool on most of this, I'll just address two points.



> I don't think Gai's hand speed is faster because he's guy. I think he is because his hand speed has been said to be super sonic (scan in my quote above to Likes Boss) were Minato's attack have been reacted before. Even though this is Obito and his warping is near instant, a man with super sonic handspeed wouldn't have had much troubles replicating this. As you see, he barely had time, and even with Hiraishin, he couldn't dodge the entire blast without getting hurt (Even if just a bit).



I can say that the databook if full of hyperbole, and quote the famous statement of Ameterasu burning hotter than the sun, but I'm not really go that route, and just accept that Guy's hands are super sonic.  That still isn't impressive to me, because the databook also describes Satetsu as being super sonic, and while I'm sure they're fast, they didn't seem like anything a fast ninja couldn't deflect or shield or deal with.  Indeed, Chiyo did so, and she only has a 4.0 speed, though good dexterity and taijutsu.  But nothing I'd put above Minato or Tobirama.  Though you have a point in that they do make great use of positioning anyway, and I can certainly accept that means they wouldn't necessarily need to swing a kunai as fast as Guy to get the same results by starting at a shorter distance.



> How i saw or understood here before, was that the Kunai Minato has in his hands was left behind. However, how he left it behind Ei's back is weird to me, i admit that. But now that i look better, I don't think he threw it before teleporting with Ei being that near, otherwise his speed should be even bigger than Ei's, also, to put that Kunai behind Ei's back at high speeds wouldn't have been possible because Minato would've thrown it with enough force to send that kunai flying all over the place, too high.
> 
> My explanation to this is that Minato threw the one he had in his hand when Ei stopped and his punch missed. In my opinion this wouldn't be a feat to compare it with Asa Kujaku if Ei wasn't moving anymore when the Kunai appeared with him.



It seems obvious to me that Ei had a lot of forward momentum, and as we saw during the fight with Naruto, Ei doesn't stop when he punches.  He plows through with them, and that's why he broke the mountain behind Naruto.  Much akin to what Sasuke did to Tobi with his shunshin slash.  So I took it as Ei shunshining through Minato, and punching his head off along the way.  Minato throwing the kunai up, despite what the anime says, really doesn't make a lot of sense, because like you said, the kunai would have to be traveling at absurd speeds and then coming to a dead stop somehow, while also taking a weird reach around angle to get behind Ei's back.  So I figured that Minato had to move his arm up to the blind spot, and then let the kunai go.  Then he flickered away and flickered back before Ei completed his punch, grabbed the kunai, and tried to stab him.  The third option I've heard is that Minato warped and then threw it, but since he didn't have it in his hand, and Ei would be across the field by the time the kunai reached his position, that one just doesn't work.

So when it looked like Ei stopped, he really wasn't, and we were just getting still images of a fight in motion.  Like the super slo-mo cam.  Since the point of the fight was to show that Minato is faster than Ei anyway, and I already accepted that Minato has a super great shunshin and other speed stuff anyway, I didn't have a problem with accepting Minato's striking speed being faster than Ei's arm movements.  Though I still think Ei has a slightly faster straight shunshin because I want him to be the best at something.  Poor guy is only good at shunshin, punching, and chopping, and Tsunade and Sasuke are already better than him at those other two, and his dad is more durable. If Minato takes straight shunshin he has nothing but silver medals.


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## LostSelf (Jan 19, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I'm pretty The FTG user has to move in that position. Are you saying they can just FTG to a person in any position they chose ?




Actually, it looks like. Yeah, i find this weird too, but when Minato teleported he appeared in a different position



> Obito saw Minato at a distance, and moved his staff to block it. Minato obviosuly doesn't run with his Kunai in front of him , rather with his arms behind his back like a ninja. He had to get close to swing his Kunai and in the panel, they both move and hit at the same time. You can't say Minato moved earlier, because I the panel they moved the same time, meaning they speed was matched.



This doesn't mean the speed is matched if Minato is the one attacking and Obito the one defending. Otherwise Edo Madara would be as fast as Ei. If you see the scan, Obito just moved his forearm, implying he easily blocked Minato's attack. Obito didn't move an inch there.



> Sasuke never touched Naruto. His arms are in the same position they were in in the top panel ; Madara
> And Sasuke just has insane Sussano activation. And even if his hand did touch Naruto, then I guess that's a feat for Sasuke.



Mmm look closer. In the first panel Sasuke is not touching Naruto, second panel Minato tries to grab the black ball, third panel Sasuke moved and touched Naruto.

*Edit:* My bad. Sasuke is not touching Naruto, you're right. He just kind of moved in front or moved his arm. Not much difference, but yeah, he didn't touch him.



> That's true I suppose. Doesn't change the fact that he can flick Kunai in the air before V2 Ay can strike him.



He didn't flick a Kunai in the air. He teleported and threw the Kunai he had grabbed in the tree behind Ei. 



> The problem is you have to move arms when you shunshin. This isn't debatable like FTG. It's a solid thing. You can't Completle a top tier shunshin feat without having he arm speed to accommodate it.



Yeah, but what's moving you are your feets, not your arms. You can be moving your arms before reaching your target. Also, blocking Kakashi is not the same as blocking MP



> Ay starts his dash off with his arms down and moves his arms during his shunshin; Madara
> Furthermore when he gets to his destination, he still has to swing his arms. You could have the fastest shunshin in the entire manga, but if you can't swing fast enough, then anyone can dodge.



Not always. Ei sometimes moves with his fist prepared a la Superman style.


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## Baroxio (Jan 19, 2014)

Sasuke uses Chidori Nagashi and there's nothing Taijutsu-only Madara can do to him.

Madara stops at 1.


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## LostSelf (Jan 19, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Since we seem pretty cool on most of this, I'll just address two points.







> I can say that the databook if full of hyperbole, and quote the famous statement of Ameterasu burning hotter than the sun, but I'm not really go that route, and just accept that Guy's hands are super sonic.  That still isn't impressive to me, because the databook also describes Satetsu as being super sonic, and while I'm sure they're fast, they didn't seem like anything a fast ninja couldn't deflect or shield or deal with.  Indeed, Chiyo did so, and she only has a 4.0 speed, though good dexterity and taijutsu.  But nothing I'd put above Minato or Tobirama.  Though you have a point in that they do make great use of positioning anyway, and I can certainly accept that means they wouldn't necessarily need to swing a kunai as fast as Guy to get the same results by starting at a shorter distance.



But it's not the databook that calls Gai's attack supersonic. Kisame says it and even explains why.



> It seems obvious to me that Ei had a lot of forward momentum, and as we saw during the fight with Naruto, Ei doesn't stop when he punches.  He plows through with them, and that's why he broke the mountain behind Naruto.  Much akin to what Sasuke did to Tobi with his shunshin slash.  So I took it as Ei shunshining through Minato, and punching his head off along the way.  Minato throwing the kunai up, despite what the anime says, really doesn't make a lot of sense, because like you said, the kunai would have to be traveling at absurd speeds and then coming to a dead stop somehow, while also taking a weird reach around angle to get behind Ei's back.  So I figured that Minato had to move his arm up to the blind spot, and then let the kunai go.  Then he flickered away and flickered back before Ei completed his punch, grabbed the kunai, and tried to stab him.  The third option I've heard is that Minato warped and then threw it, but since he didn't have it in his hand, and Ei would be across the field by the time the kunai reached his position, that one just doesn't work.





> So when it looked like Ei stopped, he really wasn't, and we were just getting still images of a fight in motion.  Like the super slo-mo cam.  Since the point of the fight was to show that Minato is faster than Ei anyway, and I already accepted that Minato has a super great shunshin and other speed stuff anyway, I didn't have a problem with accepting Minato's striking speed being faster than Ei's arm movements.  Though I still think Ei has a slightly faster straight shunshin because I want him to be the best at something.  Poor guy is only good at shunshin, punching, and chopping, and Tsunade and Sasuke are already better than him at those other two, and his dad is more durable. If Minato takes straight shunshin he has nothing but silver medals.



Actually, Ei has stopped before punching [1], or stopping when he moves fast enough for Naruto to compliment and Tsunade to be amazed of Naruto keeping up [2], when he attacked Sasuke as well [3], he kind of stopped in V2 to attack Sasuke [4], and it looked like he didn't have much momentum when he hit Madara [5].

And though Ei sometimes keeps momentum behind as to crash against anything when he misses, the reason i say he was not moving when Minato targeted him with a kunai is because Bee's tentacle catched him, and Bee's tentacles are not as fast as Ei at full speed.

I agree with the rest, i just see Gai with more speed in his hands than Minato. But i see Minato with better reflexes, shunshin speed, and almost every other category save taijutsu and probably base speed (compared to Gai in gates), but i'm not sure in that last one.


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## Lurko (Jan 19, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> Sasuke uses Chidori Nagashi and there's nothing Taijutsu-only Madara can do to him.
> 
> Madara stops at 1.



I can't tell if your serious or not..


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## Veracity (Jan 19, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Actually, it looks like. Yeah, i find this weird too, but when Minato teleported he appeared in a different position
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He actually appeared in the same position, he just bent his knees...

Actually I do think Madara can move his arms faster then Ay can move his arms and cover around 5 meters. Madara just has slower movement speed.  And kinda? If you look at the scan before, Obito has his staff all the way extended out in a casual position. In the next scan, you see the staff was swung literally in the same fashion minato would have to swing his Kunai. Also if you look at the panel where Minato has a facial reaction to Obitos words, you can see both of them don't have their weapons in front of them, meaning they both swung at the same time.

Normally I would argue against, but you can clearly see Sasukes finger tips being cut off due too the Sussano hand covering it, meaning it was behind the Sussano hand. But to be honest Sasuke really doesn't pertain to the debate, and I guess Sasuke has some crazy arm speed.

No look. When Ay was about to hit Minato, he clearly has a Kunai in his hand. When he teleports to the tree, the Kunai is gone. Meaning he flicked it in the air. It's also perfectly illustrated in the anime; Superman check at :40

That's true. But the arm speed compliments the Shunshin. Ay has a arm strike + a fast shunshin. Sasuke can read movements, yet Ay was able to shunshin while moving his arm fast enough for him not to react. It still requires an arm swing faster then the user can track. If only his shunshin was fast but not his arm swing, then Sasuke would have been able to react to it.  Sasuke could react to V1 Ay because although he has the same arm swing, his movement speed was slower making it easier to react.


Also true, but even if ay was a meter from Tobi and only used his arm speed, they result would have been the exact same.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 19, 2014)

In the case of hitting someone, I expect a great deal of his momentum and power to be transferred to the target. 

But in the middle right panel here, after the punch against Naruto, you can see that he's landing not too far from Naruto after the attack.  So I think his rush carried him forward after impact

I also was thinking more like this whiff, where he blew up that poor mountain.  That's what I expect to happen if he's dodged or meets no resistance, like vs Minato.  Though looking through these fights again, that may have been the type of punch he used on Minato, even though they were both his top speed charge punches and Kishi was definitely going for the connection between Naruto and Minato out moving Ei there.


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## LostSelf (Jan 19, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> He actually appeared in the same position, he just bent his knees...



Bent his knees, lowered his back, and moved behind his back, opened his arms, etc.



> Actually I do think Madara can move his arms faster then Ay can move his arms and cover around 5 meters. Madara just has slower movement speed.  And kinda? If you look at the scan before, Obito has his staff all the way extended out in a casual position. In the next scan, you see the staff was swung literally in the same fashion minato would have to swing his Kunai. Also if you look at the panel where Minato has a facial reaction to Obitos words, you can see both of them don't have their weapons in front of them, meaning they both swung at the same time.



I'll put another example. Juugo blocked Ei's attack. I understand what you are saying, i'm just saying that if your attack is blocked, doesn't mean that speed is equalized. Especially when the opponent had just moved the forearm to block (I will explain this one below). If speed were equalized, Minato would've reacted to Obito's attack and avoid getting his arm cut.

And yes, i already said that. Obito just moved his forearm and probably his arm, but only that. It can't be seen clear because in the next scan we can't see Obito's body completely, but you can know looking at his right shoulder.



> Normally I would argue against, but you can clearly see Sasukes finger tips being cut off due too the Sussano hand covering it, meaning it was behind the Sussano hand. But to be honest Sasuke really doesn't pertain to the debate, and I guess Sasuke has some crazy arm speed.



Sasuke is fast, yeah. But not comparable to Gai in hand speed. Sasuke's arm is cut off because his body is in the way, though. But yeah, Sasuke has nothing to do, i was using him as an example of why Minato's stricking speed sometimes are not as fast as Gated Gai's.



> No look. When Ay was about to hit Minato, he clearly has a Kunai in his hand. When he teleports to the tree, the Kunai is gone. Meaning he flicked it in the air. It's also perfectly illustrated in the anime; Madara could casually sidestep it on foot check at :40



He had a kunai in the tree beforehand when he scattered them. It's impossible for the Kunai to appear behind Ei's back if he left it near Ei's legs. It is true that the kunai is not seen when he teleports, but it can be because the shroud is covering it. Or do you mean that he threw it before teleporting? I don't understand the _flickering the kunai in the air_ part. The Anime is not always canon and some details of the fight can be changed. For example, the fight of Deva vs KN6.



> That's true. But the arm speed compliments the Shunshin. Ay has a arm strike + a fast shunshin. Sasuke can read movements, yet Ay was able to shunshin while moving his arm fast enough for him not to react. It still requires an arm swing faster then the user can track. If only his shunshin was fast but not his arm swing, then Sasuke would have been able to react to it.  Sasuke could react to V1 Ay because although he has the same arm swing, his movement speed was slower making it easier to react.



(Please quote me like i quote you, i'm getting a bit confused). Not always, it's true that Minato's hand speed is fast, but what allowed him to grab Kakashi's hand was the speed of his shunshin. He just needed to get near him shunshining and grabbing his hand was a piece of cake after that. He matched or bested Kakashi's arm speed there.




> Also true, but even if ay was a meter from Tobi and only used his arm speed, they result would have been the exact same.



Yeah, this was just to point that he doesn't always moves like that.


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## LostSelf (Jan 19, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> In the case of hitting someone, I expect a great deal of his momentum and power to be transferred to the target.
> 
> But in the middle right panel here, after the punch against Naruto, you can see that he's landing not too far from Naruto after the attack.  So I think his rush carried him forward after impact



Agreed. Didn't see that part.



> I also was thinking more like this whiff, where he blew up that poor mountain.  That's what I expect to happen if he's dodged or meets no resistance, like vs Minato.  Though looking through these fights again, that may have been the type of punch he used on Minato, even though they were both his top speed charge punches and Kishi was definitely going for the connection between Naruto and Minato out moving Ei there.



Actually, he has seemingly stopped after going out at full speeds if he desires, like here. But Kishi's intention of making a connection of Naruto and Minato is a very good and convincing argument and i take it. What's still weird is why and how Bee could follow up Ei's full speed.

Or Ei stopped when Minato grabbed him, or he could've been losing momentum when he missed, or Minato tracked Ei's movement, calculated and threw the Kunai in a position where he could appear behind Ei.

Or, he has insanely fast hand speed too. All of those are a given, in my opinion, that is if i assume he threw the Kunai he grabbed in the tree. if that Kunai is the one that he left behind when he teleported then i wouldn't know what to say right now.


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## Veracity (Jan 19, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Bent his knees, lowered his back, and moved behind his back, opened his arms, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All things that Minato is fast enough to do after FTG. Your acting like his position was considerably changed.

Jugo blocked V1 Ay who was matched in speed by Darui. Not that impressive. Minato didn't react to the second part because he wasn't expecting his staff to cut cleanly though his Kunai and bisect his arm. If anything Minato would have to be faster to not get caught by that stuff attack. Think about it, Minato would have to realize that the staff broke through his Kunai then move his entire body to move, while all Obito had to do was swing his staff.

Apparently he is now, or that was an art error according to it not being an important part of the feat. Either way we have a clear feat of Minato's arm swing like 3 times.

He didn't leave it at Ay's legs LostSelf. There's this thing called gravity that tends to take effect. You seem to be severely over complicating what actually happened. Let me break it down to you.

- Ay dashed in and his fist almost grazed the bridge of Minato's nose.
- Minato before Ay hit, flicked a kunai into the air and as it past Ay's leg he teleported to his set Kunai in the tree.
-  Because Minato threw the Kunai, it traveled through the air and met around Ay's arm.
- Minato then teleported to the Kunai, and almost killed Ay.

Simple as that. I meant that when Minato teleports to the tree he has no kunai in his hand. Meaning he threw it before he teleported. Also there is a distinct difference between this fight and the KN6 battle. In that battle they added a ton of extra scenes and it was made for entertainment( especially considering it was a big fight) The Minato fight played perfectly panel after panel mimicking what had happened in the manga. It's the perfect anime scene translation. That shit was literally canon.

I donno how to on iphone. And not really. What you seem to not understand is that because Minato was so far he has to either move his hand during, before, or after the shunshin, meaning you still have to add the shunshin time + his arm speed to the feat. He would have matched Kakashis arm speed if he was arm Length away, but he wasn't so he had to wait for the shunshin to take effect.

Also to note that Minato moved after Kakashi started moving.


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## LostSelf (Jan 19, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> All things that Minato is fast enough to do after FTG. Your acting like his position was considerably changed.



It _considerably_ changed, the guy went from being standing up to having his knees bent and looking behind to Ei's position.. This is another example of how much his position changes



> Jugo blocked V1 Ay who was matched in speed by Darui. Not that impressive. Minato didn't react to the second part because he wasn't expecting his staff to cut cleanly though his Kunai and bisect his arm. If anything Minato would have to be faster to not get caught by that stuff attack. Think about it, Minato would have to realize that the staff broke through his Kunai then move his entire body to move, while all Obito had to do was swing his staff.



Minato saw Obito's attack and he couldn't even warp back. It's clear that their speed was not equalized.



> Apparently he is now, or that was an art error according to it not being an important part of the feat. Either way we have a clear feat of Minato's arm swing like 3 times.


Wich none of them equals to Gai's hyped super sonic punches. Sasuke is not.



> He didn't leave it at Ay's legs LostSelf. There's this thing called gravity that tends to take effect. You seem to be severely over complicating what actually happened. Let me break it down to you.



No, you are forgetting Ei's momentum once Minato teleported and Ei missed his punch, he was were Minato was standing or further, therefore his Kunai couldn't have appeared where he left it because Ei wasn't in the same place.



> - Ay dashed in and his fist almost grazed the bridge of Minato's nose.
> - Minato before Ay hit, flicked a kunai into the air and as it past Ay's leg he teleported to his set Kunai in the tree.
> -  Because Minato threw the Kunai, it traveled through the air and met around Ay's arm.
> - Minato then teleported to the Kunai, and almost killed Ay.



How do you know Minato flicked that Kunai when it wasn't even shown? And according to what i said above, it's impossible for the Kunai to have appeared there because Ei kept moving, if he stopped shortly after or not, he wasn't in that same place, therefore throwing the Kunai in the air wasn't viable. And it wasn't shown either.



> Simple as that. I meant that when Minato teleports to the tree he has no kunai in his hand. Meaning he threw it before he teleported. Also there is a distinct difference between this fight and the KN6 battle. In that battle they added a ton of extra scenes and it was made for entertainment( especially considering it was a big fight) The Minato fight played perfectly panel after panel mimicking what had happened in the manga. It's the perfect anime scene translation. That shit was literally canon.



And the anime here added an scene that wasn't shown. That's not canon still. There was no Kunai in his hand because he left it behind, when, how or wich kunai he used is unknown.



> I donno how to on iphone. And not really. What you seem to not understand is that because Minato was so far he has to either move his hand during, before, or after the shunshin, meaning you still have to add the shunshin time + his arm speed to the feat. He would have matched Kakashis arm speed if he was arm Length away, but he wasn't so he had to wait for the shunshin to take effect.
> 
> Also to note that Minato moved after Kakashi started moving.



That's a speed feat. It implies Minato is pretty fast, it doesn't imply he has super sonic hand speed. Only that he is much faster than Kakashi.


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## Veracity (Jan 19, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> It _considerably_ changed, the guy went from being standing up to having his knees bent and looking behind to Ei's position.. This is another example of how much his position changes
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay let's just forget about that feat. We are mostly arguing Minato and not Tobirama. 

So? It's still a feat for Minato. He reacted to Juubitos first move, but was caught off guard by his second. It's like saying that in a taijjstu brawl but because the opponent was able to land an attack means they are clearly superior. Not the case.

Apparently he is. 

Yes it could have ? It just means the Kunai traveled extremely fast considering it was thrown.

Kishi doesn't have to walk us through each and every scene in the manga. Kishi didn't show Madara defeat the Kage so we have no idea what truly happened. That's basically what you are saying. There are only 2 things Minato could have done in that situation. Either he flicked it like I said, or he threw it after he hit the tree like you assume. My assumption is backed up by 2 aspects unlike yours.
1) he didn't have a Kunai in his hands after he teleported. Please tell me where the kunai went?
2) it was shown exactly like I said in the anime.

True the anime isn't canon, but considering the entire episode was EXACTLY how the manga was, then I have doubt that that part was added. Moreover, kishi makes it explicitly evident how Minato uses his FTG, and would not let it be ruined like that.

So he just dropped the Kunai ? Why would that even make sense ? If anything holding on to the Kunai would make more sense considering he couldn't use a dropped Kunai and dropping the kunai for nothing would take more time. 

You have one impressive feat for Gai. While Mianto has more or less 3 of them.


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## Jad (Jan 20, 2014)

Do you guys want to know the best indication of Minato's arm speed-swing?

I'll show you. The Kunai passes through Obito's head, not even fully coming out, while at the same time you can see Minato's rasengan in form in the same panel [1]. 

Then in this panel, look at how far the Kunai has traveled, and yet Minato's rasengan is only a few centimetre's away from Obito's head [2]. Literally look at how far the Kunai has travelled from Obito's head and compare that to how close the rasengan Minato has to Obito's head. It means the Kunai thrown is traveling faster then Minato's arm swing.

You're going to tell me that the Kunai is faster than V2 A? Since you all believe in a micron-second (is that even a word) Minato moved his hand from his waist side to let go of a Kunai when in midst of a V2 A punch? Even though in the same scenario Bee intercepted Ei with his tentacle before Minato could finish his attack at point-blank range [4]?

Even though in this scan you can clearly see Sasuke moves his arm infront of Naruto from a resting stand point. While Minato has yet touched the _exploding ball of light_ near his shoulder before Sasuke stuck his arm out? [5]. In that panel Minato moves his arm, next panel Sasuke has moved his arm just as far, considering in the first panel it was nowhere near Naruto.

Or how about here, where Minato extends his arm to grab the Zetsu is paralleled by Kakashi extending his arm and trying to catch Zetsu [6]. Considering both their arms in the previous panel were at a rest [7].

You guys want to accept one thing but not the others huh? You don’t want anything to do with it, its background noise. Personally I like the travelling Kunai example since it shows frame for frame, pretty much solidifies this entire argument in my opinion. The other examples are just additional justifiers for my explanation. 

But I guess *Gai igniting the air on fire* with his punches at super sonic speeds justifiably in dialogue and illustration (*Kishimoto's manga rule that exists*), means nothing? It's just aesthetics, just to look fancy. So I guess one of Gai's best gated and named technique is outdone by a generic movement by Minato? Ok, sure. You guys got me there. 

PS: Juubito blocking Minato's attack.....how does that justify Minato having the same attacking speed as Juubito? Obito is the one that reacted to Minato's initial attack (by blocking), and when Obito went to launch his, Minato had to Hirashin out even though  his arm still got caught.

Also refer to this , you will see Tobirama's attack has nothing to do with FTG - it's very clearly thought out and justified.​


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## Alex Payne (Jan 20, 2014)

I find this "arm swing speed" discussion incredibly silly and pointless. Both Minato and Tobirama were "fastest shinobi" simply because they can teleport. It had nothing to with "arm swing speed" or any other body part swinging speed.


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## Jad (Jan 20, 2014)

alex payne said:


> I find this "arm swing speed" discussion incredibly silly and pointless. Both Minato and Tobirama were "fastest shinobi" simply because they can teleport. It had nothing to with "arm swing speed" or any other body part swinging speed.



It's more then that, it's trying to find a way to discredit Gai's feat (Morning Peacock) as some casual movement that looks flashy....


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## Alex Payne (Jan 20, 2014)

> Morning Peacock (朝孔雀, Asa Kujaku)
> Taijutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Short range (0-5m)
> User: Might Guy
> 
> ...



The tech itself is restricted. There should be some trick behind it aside from punching very fast and very hard. And that's just 6th Gate. Gai can open 7 here and even though he can't use actual techs - physical abilities that allowed for those techs to be possible are present.

Hiraishin is awesome but Tobirama/Minato have a fair amount of people equal/above them when pure physical speed is concerned imo.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 20, 2014)

I don't think anyone's intention was to say Guy sucks.  

Minato stripped the burning exploding tags off a baby and shunshined out a window.  So he has fast hands.  Could Guy do that?  Sure.  Could Guy do that better than Minato?  Okay.  Could Guy do so much better than he can save several babies in that same scenario when Minato arely saved one?  I think that's too much.  I don't consider that sort of opinion as one of discrediting Guy.

Besides that, it doesn't really mtter because I don't think Guy's reverse lotus will cause anymore damage to Madara than bijuu pinball did, and I don't think it's discrediting to Guy to say his top striking power is equal to or under that of bijuu.


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## Jad (Jan 20, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Minato stripped the burning exploding tags off a baby and shunshined out a window.  So he has fast hands.



Rock Lee did that back in Part-1 [1][2]. It's not that great of a feat. Such a beautiful example I gave you (lol) as it parallels exactly the Minato situation (to a 'T').

Minato didn't use Shunshin by itself to escape the explosion. I'm not sure how, probably not looking at the scene good enough, but it did involve Hirashin [3]. Maybe he Hirashin to the top level of the house and got pushed out of the house from the resultant explosion coming from underneath (as he lands awkwardly and not confidently).



> Could Guy do that?  Sure.  Could Guy do that better than Minato?  Okay.  Could Guy do so much better than he can save several babies in that same scenario when Minato arely saved one?  I think that's too much.  I don't consider that sort of opinion as one of discrediting Guy.



You say Gai can do what Minato does better by taking a blanket filled with exploding tags off a baby? Of course he can, he eclipses that feat very easily, his hands explode the air on fire at how fast he moves his arms. As for your last statement, like I said, Part-1 Rock Lee could save a Squirrel with a exploding tag like Minato did (exact mimicry of the scene). Not that great of a feat.

Like I said, seriously, a Generic arm movement from Minato is going to supercede a named gated technique like Gai that is recorded in the databook? Which revolves around the quickness of his arm movement/punches? Really...Even with all (not just one) those above panels I posted of Minato moving his arm and how it doesn't compare.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 20, 2014)

Yeah, the Rock Lee feat with the squirrel is like pointing to Sasuke shielding himself from Deidara's fast explosions and then pointing to the panel where Tenten was outrunning a Deidara explosion with her team.  Like, sure, in that scene she was running from them, but later Sasuke had to shield to avoid the explosions, because even though it's similar, the intent and portrayal was different.  But whatever, that's me and how I read it.  Feat wise, sure, I guess P1 Rock Lee is capable of doing what Minato barely did with weights on.  Minato lives up to his moniker.


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## Jad (Jan 20, 2014)

Hidan escapes a point blank explosion [1][2] which would take much more effort then to touch a baby you are no more then a few centimeters from. If Hidan was caught in the explosion, he'd have been flung back like Sakura [3] and have steam coming off of him like Sakura [4] and Kakuzu's arm [5].

How about the Kisame example? Escaped a point blank explosion of the same nature by sinking into the water (no special technique or anything) [6]. As you can see from not only the Rock Lee example (which parallels Minato's own), but the other two, which show movements that would take much more effort then moving your hand a few centimetre's, to escape the brunt of an explosion at point blank. Such feats aren't that special when it comes to explosive tags.

At any rate, Minato had his hand ON the baby while the tag was exploding. The tag's weren't exploding when Minato's hands weren't on the baby...

By the way, just a heads up, if you're being sarcastic, I can't sense it.

It doesn't really matter, I've shown you examples of Minato's hand/arm speed, especially the Kunai throwing one. Gai is just that faster - Kishimoto explains it through both Illustration, through Kisame's dialogue (who doesn't own the technique - knows it isn't ninjutsu) and the Databook's information - It's so fast it causes friction with the air and catches it on fire. Minato's hand/arm speed is not doing that. 

On top of this, the _Thunder God Slash_ that Tobirama uses, has nothing to do with FTG as outlined by  quite clearly. Unless you have objections. Madara dodged a movement slower than a 6th Gated Punch.​


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## tkpirate (Jan 20, 2014)

are people here saying that gai is faster than minato ?


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## Lurko (Jan 20, 2014)

Yea but they are clearly wrong.


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## Veracity (Jan 20, 2014)

Jad you can't be taken seriously because you don't see the exaggeration that Kishi applies to Both Lee and Gai. 

It's funny because If Gai punches so fast that it creates fire, then explain how an even faster punch only created air pressure ? 

Another large contradiction to your entire point is that Gated Lee can do this to the ground ; Minato had his hand ON the baby while the tag was exploding

While Obito does this to the ground ; Minato had his hand ON the baby while the tag was exploding

Wait so Lee moves faster then Obito and Gai in the 6th gate punches faster then in the 7th gate ?


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 20, 2014)

Honestly, I see him only beating round 1.


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## LostSelf (Jan 20, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Okay let's just forget about that feat. We are mostly arguing Minato and not Tobirama.



Ok



> So? It's still a feat for Minato. He reacted to Juubitos first move, but was caught off guard by his second. It's like saying that in a taijjstu brawl but because the opponent was able to land an attack means they are clearly superior. Not the case.



If i throw a punch to Mayweather and he blocks it, does that mean i have the same stricking speed as him? No. Minato reacted to nothing, he attacked, was easly blocked and ended with an arm less. If this is a feat, it's Obito's, who took Minato's arm off before the guy could even teleport.

Being blocked it's not a feat at all, not a speed feat, strenght feat, nothing. Especially when you get blocked and getting your ass kicked after that.



> Apparently he is.



No. Naruto was able to throw a FRS at the same time he shoot an enton slash, and FRS is not even near to the physical speed that Gai uses when he punches.



> Yes it could have ? It just means the Kunai traveled extremely fast considering it was thrown.



How could've Minato thrown a Kunai to the air when Ei was inches away from him? The force he should've used for that would've been so big that the Kunai should've been sent flying and not appearing backwards one second later. 



> Kishi doesn't have to walk us through each and every scene in the manga. Kishi didn't show Madara defeat the Kage so we have no idea what truly happened. That's basically what you are saying. There are only 2 things Minato could have done in that situation. Either he flicked it like I said, or he threw it after he hit the tree like you assume. My assumption is backed up by 2 aspects unlike yours.



Mine is backed up by logic, like i showed you above.



> 1) he didn't have a Kunai in his hands after he teleported. Please tell me where the kunai went?



Ended in the floor? Left behind?



> 2) it was shown exactly like I said in the anime.
> 
> True the anime isn't canon, but considering the entire episode was EXACTLY how the manga was, then I have doubt that that part was added. Moreover, kishi makes it explicitly evident how Minato uses his FTG, and would not let it be ruined like that.



Not shown. It wasn't something off panel to assume otherwise. It was just not shown. One panel is Ei near him, and in the other panel is Minato teleported in the tree. The anime made a scene between those. It doesn't exists, therefore is not canon.



> So he just dropped the Kunai ? Why would that even make sense ? If anything holding on to the Kunai would make more sense considering he couldn't use a dropped Kunai and dropping the kunai for nothing would take more time.



I'd buy that better than him flickering the kunai in the air so fast and hard and the Kunai falling down in less than a second, and even with that speed, Killer Bee managing to get him before he killed Ei, even if Bee began to move before Minato teleported, all that happened pretty fast. Unless the Kunai weights 500 pounds, and even like that i doubt it would be possible.



> You have one impressive feat for Gai. While Mianto has more or less 3 of them.



Sasuke and Itachi has shown more speed feats than Gai, and that doesn't make them as fast. Minato has never been called super sonic as his attacks have been reacted and forced to teleport.

Minato was not called the yellow flash because of his physical movements but his Hiraishin. He can have 100 hand speed feats, and if Gai just have one and is better, then all those 100 would be meaningless in a comparison. And even then, we've seen Obito reacting to surprise attacks from Minato in short distances, he is not super sonic like Gai's attacks are.


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## Raiken (Jan 20, 2014)

Round 1: Madara Wins without a large amount of difficulty.
Round 2: Pretty even battle here, 7th Gate Gai CQC is a monster, think Madara might "just" take it, JUST.
Round 3: Maxed Raiton Armour A and V2 Hachibi Cloak B, I'm pretty confident Madara would loose here in CQC.
Round 4: Similar to Round 2, Madara only just wins.
Round 5: Madara just about Looses, JUST

So yeah, I think Madara would only loose Round 3 and 5, and he would only JUST, win 2 and 3. But would win 1 with a semi-tough fight.


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## Veracity (Jan 20, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Ok
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's how it happened though. They both swung at the same time as indicated in the panel. And they both met in the middle as also indicated in the panel.  When Obito says something to Minato he has nothing in front of his face Indicating  he was in the same causal position with his staff to the side. When the panel shows Minato he also has nothing in front of his face indicating his Kunai was either by his side or behind him. VERY next panel they meet in the middle. Don't bullshittt that feat.  Minato matched his speed.

Minato being hit in the next panel means that Obito either was more serious, or Minato was surprised that his staff plot his Kunai in 2 and cut off his arm. Don't even try to bring up that Obito is leaps and bounds faster then Minato based on him landing an attack. I recall Zabuza landing quite a bit of attacks off on Kakashi based on the fact that both opponents are bound to get hit in a taijustu skirmish. It's like saying Mayweather has never been hit even though he's undefeated.

I recall Sasuke using a sword with that Enton slash not his arms.

This is a manga LostSelf. Stop acting like Kishi uses realistic physics for every panel he does. Gai can fresking double jump? Are you seriously going to fight against the fact that Minato can flick a Kunai at high speeds ?

 The Kunai would not be sent flying ? Ay is traveling at hypersonic speeds. The kunai was traveling just above that speed, meaning it appeared just above his shoulder.

Your assumption is backed up by literally nothing. I have the Anime, and the fact that he had no kunai in his hand that backs up my statement.

Then explain the Kunai above Ay ?

If you are so quick to dump my idea then please explain what Happened LostSelf ? Mind you him throwing the Kunai after warping would be off panel also, and is far less supported then what I said.

Either you accept that Minato flicked the Kunai, or you accept that the Kunai just appeared out of thin air.

Lee , Gaara and Neji traveled at supersonic speeds way back in part 1. Furthermore; Ay, KCM Naruto, and Juubito all have not been called supersonic, so you're super sonic argument means diddly squat here.

Minato was fast nonetheless. I think you and Jad take this lightning the air on fire feat way to damn seriously. If he lights air on fire in 6th gates but only causes air pressure in 7th then what does that mean ?


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## Cheeky Nayrudo (Jan 20, 2014)

Madara needs his gunbai.​


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## LostSelf (Jan 20, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> That's how it happened though. They both swung at the same time as indicated in the panel. And they both met in the middle as also indicated in the panel.  When Obito says something to Minato he has nothing in front of his face Indicating  he was in the same causal position with his staff to the side. When the panel shows Minato he also has nothing in front of his face indicating his Kunai was either by his side or behind him. VERY next panel they meet in the middle. Don't bullshittt that feat.  Minato matched his speed.



Bro, it's not that hard to get. If Minato was blocked then this has _nothing_ to do with speed matched. Minato attacks, Obito blocks. How would he move at the same time? This is getting ridiculous right now and i guess this is the last time i will reply to this part.

Being blocked doesn't mean the same speed. Obito just moved his staff while Minato was coming  at him. Again, would i have the same stricking speed as mayweather if i throw a punch and him, at the same time, puts up his arm to block? No. Since when blocking a hit is matching speed? Seriously, get serious.



> Minato being hit in the next panel means that Obito either was more serious, or Minato was surprised that his staff plot his Kunai in 2 and cut off his arm. Don't even try to bring up that Obito is leaps and bounds faster then Minato based on him landing an attack. I recall Zabuza landing quite a bit of attacks off on Kakashi based on the fact that both opponents are bound to get hit in a taijustu skirmish. It's like saying Mayweather has never been hit even though he's undefeated.



Minato being hit after that before he could even teleport back puts your own equal hand speed argument down and clearly shows that Obito didn't move fast to block, just with the necesary speed to fodderize Minato's strike.



> I recall Sasuke using a sword with that Enton slash not his arms.



It's still hand speed, wich he pales in comparison to Gai.



> This is a manga LostSelf. Stop acting like Kishi uses realistic physics for every panel he does. Gai can fresking double jump? Are you seriously going to fight against the fact that Minato can flick a Kunai at high speeds ?



This is not providing proofs.



> The Kunai would not be sent flying ? Ay is traveling at hypersonic speeds. The kunai was traveling just above that speed, meaning it appeared just above his shoulder.



How can someone who _barely_ saved kid Naruto from exploding tags flick a kunai in the air at hypersonic speeds and said kunai would fall down in a second. Explain me.



> Your assumption is backed up by literally nothing.* I have the Anime*, and the fact that he had no kunai in his hand that backs up my statement.



Then you have nothing and an assumption vs physics.



> Then explain the Kunai above Ay ?



He threw the one in the tree probably?



> If you are so quick to dump my idea then please explain what Happened LostSelf ? Mind you him throwing the Kunai after warping would be off panel also, and is far less supported then what I said.



Ei attacks, Minato teleports, Ei misses. When Ei misses he still keeps momentum, Minato throws the Kunai in the tree and teleports to that one. I don't know you, but i find this one more believable that him throwing a kunai at hyper sonic speed (I don't believe Ei is hypersonic either way, but to follow you), the Kunai stopping midair, moving backwards and appearing in Ei's face in less than a second.



> Either you accept that Minato flicked the Kunai, or you accept that the Kunai just appeared out of thin air.



I'm not acepting that as much i'm not acepting Minato's "hypersonic" hand speed when he had failed to show it before.



> Lee , Gaara and Neji traveled at supersonic speeds way back in part 1. Furthermore; Ay, KCM Naruto, and Juubito all have not been called supersonic, so you're super sonic argument means diddly squat here.



???



> Minato was fast nonetheless. I think you and Jad take this lightning the air on fire feat way to damn seriously. If he lights air on fire in 6th gates but only causes air pressure in 7th then what does that mean ?



Minato _is_ pretty fast. But his handspeed is not faster than Gai's. You keep focusing on the air pressure instead of focusing on the statement. He was stated to have super sonic punches, this is not assumption or anything, he was _stated_ to have super sonic stricking speeds.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 20, 2014)

A point about Minato losing his arm.

All of the edo were tanking hits because they were edos, in order to explores the opponent's abilities.  It's the same reason Tobirama kamikaze'd just to mark Obito with a tag, and why I'd like to think Hiruzen was fodderized after throwing shuriken.  

Minato didn't care about losing an arm until he found out it wouldn't come back, at which point he learned he wasn't allowed to get touched, and then never got touched again.


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## LostSelf (Jan 20, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> A point about Minato losing his arm.
> 
> All of the edo were tanking hits because they were edos, in order to explores the opponent's abilities.  It's the same reason Tobirama kamikaze'd just to mark Obito with a tag, and why I'd like to think Hiruzen was fodderized after throwing shuriken.
> 
> Minato didn't care about losing an arm until he found out it wouldn't come back, at which point he learned he wasn't allowed to get touched, and then never got touched again.



Yeah, but Minato already knew how powerful Obito was before doing that. And Minato's reaction and Naruto's could've shown that Minato didn't want to be hit.

P.D: I guess this thread is not about Madara anymore . To avoid bothering Alex Payne i think we should make a thread about this instead.


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## Lurko (Jan 20, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Jad you can't be taken seriously because you don't see the exaggeration that Kishi applies to Both Lee and Gai.
> 
> It's funny because If Gai punches so fast that it creates fire, then explain how an even faster punch only created air pressure ?
> 
> ...



This is the true anwser.


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## Veracity (Jan 20, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Bro, it's not that hard to get. If Minato was blocked then this has _nothing_ to do with speed matched. Minato attacks, Obito blocks. How would he move at the same time? This is getting ridiculous right now and i guess this is the last time i will reply to this part.
> 
> Being blocked doesn't mean the same speed. Obito just moved his staff while Minato was coming  at him. Again, would i have the same stricking speed as mayweather if i throw a punch and him, at the same time, puts up his arm to block? No. Since when blocking a hit is matching speed? Seriously, get serious.
> 
> ...



I don't get why everyone is under the assumption that Juubito blocked anything. They merely attacked at the same time and canceled out.  You cannot say that Minato attacked first at all from this panel ; Naruto's

Or he was caught off guard ? A Shinobi is not always at there best at all times. And considering Minato's arm was just removed from his body in one solid movement, I find it very believable that Obito could touch Minato's arm once before he teleported. All things aside, even if Minato only barely kept up with Juubito, that still exceeds Gai considering Juubito has a  faster arm  swing then Gai.

 Would he not move slower with a sword?

It allows the average debater to realize that physics should not be applied especially when debating about Gai who absolutely destroys physics.

Barely means what? He still did it. And I'm gonna need that feat.

I have the Kunai not in his hands feat.

Lol wait. So let me get this straight. You are saying that Minato would not be able to flick a Kunai in the air before Ay hit, and that the Kunai would not be fast enough to travel that high. But he would be able to teleport to the tree, and throw the Kunai from a farther distance and the Kunai get to Ay in this position ; Naruto's which is physically impossible based on the location he would have thrown the Kunai, but that assumption is more likely ? Lol that really cracks me up . 

Yes they all were able to travel faster then sound way back in part 1. 

I don't really care about the statement, if the feats contradict it. If supersonic speeds create fire then a punch faster would create fire right? That is directly contradicted by AT.

Also Ay and Juubito do not have the supersonic statement bullshittt. Yet they both move faster then that.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 20, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Yeah, but Minato already knew how powerful Obito was before doing that. And Minato's reaction and Naruto's could've shown that Minato didn't want to be hit.
> 
> P.D: I guess this thread is not about Madara anymore . To avoid bothering Alex Payne i think we should make a thread about this instead.



Minato has soloed this thread.

It is ours now.

Alex Payne's sacrifice will bring on many more pages of discussion he finds pointless and dumb, and for it, the Battledome will be made a better* place.


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## Jad (Jan 20, 2014)

Afternoon Tiger isn't really a proper conventional punch to begin with. It involves a weird _formation of the hands_, with two *flame like things appearing on his fingers*, which eventually can form two types of Tigers:

A Tiger that expands behind you to absolutely dwarf your height.
A Tiger that slowly expands into a large construct and then compresses in size again to explode.

That punch definitely does not fit the conventional close fist and thrust forward type of deal that you would see normally. I think using Afternoon Tiger to say "Ha, Kishimoto contradicted Morning Peacock's speed by not going on fire" is a poor argument. Because really, Afternoon Tiger doesn't even fit the conventional punch. Like I said, he has two fingers that light up. Maybe his fingers absorb all the heat from the punch, I don't know, you are going to have to wait for the Databook entry for it. I mean the fact it generates a LARGE *TIGER* from what is suppose to be just a straight forward punch as you are trying to compare it to, should be the first indicator that something is different about it. And as such, should not be used to try and compare it to a normal 6th Gated movement - like this kick that lights on fire or the punches that eventually form _Morning Peacock_.

NEVERTHELESS, it does not excuse you to try and dehype Morning Peacock by saying it's movements are only illustrative only. You are trying to discredit the author of the manga even though his proving your arguments wrong. I didn't make this up, I mean the author is giving you all this information when he didn't need to, including:


 Kisame's statement.
 Databook statement.
 And finally, the illustration that ties both statements together.

This is the rules Kishimoto made in his OWN MANGA, which he authored. You seem to be so fixated on saying "That's just visuals" (ok), but dude, Kishimoto explains that it isn't just visuals. Also, examples I have shown of Minato that don't even come close to the speeds of Gai's arms movement.

At any rate, I've shown you scans, a few of them, that show Minato's arm speed.


Kunai thrown by Minato travels quicker then Minato's arm.
Bee's tentacle from a distance travels quicker then Minato's arm.
Sasuke sticking out his arm infront of Naruto, travels quicker then Minato's arm.
 Kakashi and Minato parallel example.

You are so hung up on trying to explain how the Kunai got near Ei, by saying Minato flicked/moved his arm in position before he would get punched. Yet all these examples I show you better explain his arm speed. Not one, not two, not three, but four. Especially the first example, which shows you panel for panel exactly what is going on.

As for the Lee feat. He uses a technique that he probably barely used two times. He has never shown it to Neji or his team mates, and importantly *WASN’T* allowed to use it unless in a life or death situation. So to say that he couldn’t control his technique (speed) by converting all that energy into exploding the ground rather than on speed, is not that farfetched.

[*BUT*] Also….also, as you can see, the stadium was already banged up and broken before Lee and Gaara fought, and all Lee did was lift up the loosely fitted and broken concrete tiles in the stadium. Concrete (tiles) that had already been taking damage and tampered with from previous bouts. They lost their integrity is a better word to use. It was basically rubble at that point.

For example, before Lee uses the 3rd Gate this was the stadium state [1][2].

---------------------------------------​
I seriously can't fathom how you can say Minato's generic swing of the arm is faster then a named Gated movement that Kishi took the time to explain twice and illustrated numerous times using the physics he brought into his manga. It doesn't make sense why you would be trying to say that - even though the examples I've shown of Minato are nothing but regular movements that don't need to be bolstered. It's unfathomable. I'm actually surprised, utterly surprised that one day I had to try and prove Gai's arms move faster then some generic hand movement...Really I am. I didn't think this day would come but it has...​


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## tkpirate (Jan 20, 2014)

^ why do you think gai's arm speed is faster than minato's ? just because they catch fire ? there are no proof that his kunai's are faster than him.he needs those kunai to teleport.minato took time before stabbing 4th raikage that gave Bee enough time.and sasuke was closer to naruto than minato.


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## Veracity (Jan 20, 2014)

Oh my lord I have hella things to say. Just wait jad. I have 2 essays due tomorrow. I'll get back to you tomorrow afternoon.


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## Jad (Jan 20, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> ^ why do you think gai's arm speed is faster than minato's ? just because they catch fire ?



Read my posts, you will see what I am saying.


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## tkpirate (Jan 20, 2014)

Jad said:


> Read my posts, you will see what I am saying.



i have read some of your posts.one thing that you have said many times is that gai's punches are very fast because they catch fire.but it isn't a valid point.


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## Jad (Jan 20, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> i have read some of your posts.one thing that you have said many times is that gai's punches are very fast because they catch fire.but it isn't a valid point.



Even if Kishi explicitly states the reason they catch on fire is because Gai's movements are so supersonic they render air on fire? So you are choosing to ignore Kishimoto's manga law? The author? Just so you can make Minato look good? Even though, even though, I have proven, time after time, the swing of Minato's arm, not once, not twice, not three times, but four times?

No offense, but I think catching the air on fire at how fast your arms move at is a pretty freaking good indication of how much more faster Gai's movements are to a generic no-named hand movement from Minato...So Kishimoto takes the time to explain not only in the MANGA but the DATABOOK why Gai's movements are so fast, yet A FASTER move by Minato is not explicitly stated anywhere? Besides fans?

At the moment, I can't tell if you guys are actually trolling the shit out of me, or are utterly serious....


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## tkpirate (Jan 20, 2014)

Jad said:


> Even if Kishi explicitly states the reason they catch on fire is because Gai's movements are so supersonic they render air on fire? So you are choosing to ignore Kishimoto's manga law? The author? Just so you can make Minato look good? Even though, even though, I have proven, time after time, the swing of Minato's arm, not once, not twice, not three times, but four times?
> 
> No offense, but I think catching the air on fire at how fast your arms move at is a pretty freaking good indication of how much more faster Gai's movements are to a generic no-named hand movement from Minato...So Kishimoto takes the time to explain not only in the MANGA but the DATABOOK why Gai's movements are so fast, yet A FASTER move by Minato is not explicitly stated anywhere? Besides fans?
> 
> At the moment, I can't tell if you guys are actually trolling the shit out of me, or are utterly serious....



look dude,i think gai's punches are much faster than supersonic.i think it's easily hypersonic+.but in fiction Hypersonic+ speed very SLOW,there are many characters in fiction who can move and punch many times faster than the speed of light.yet their punches do not catch fire.and kishi the author himself said many times that minato is the fastest shinobi.he proved that also.only BM naruto and juubito are faster than minato currently.and don't bring up naruto data book because it's full of wrong statements.


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## Lurko (Jan 21, 2014)

Yea Jad don't go with the fire thing..


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## Jad (Jan 21, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> look dude,i think gai's punches are much faster than supersonic.i think it's easily hypersonic+.but in fiction Hypersonic+ speed very SLOW,there are many characters in fiction who can move and punch many times faster than the speed of light.yet their punches do not catch fire.and kishi the author himself said many times that minato is the fastest shinobi.he proved that also.only BM naruto and juubito are faster than minato currently.and don't bring up naruto data book because it's full of wrong statements.



Just because Minato is considered the fastest ninja, it falls on the fact he has FTG to thank for that. Also being considered the fatest ninja does not, I repeat does not, translate to a person having fast arm movements. Remember Ei? He got intercepted by Juugo, Bee and Suigetsu when he tried to punch people at point blank.

I have shown you, 4 times, F-O-U-R (lol) times, that Minato's arm speed is nothing to boast about. Unlike Gai's arm speed which is *illustrated* as being the fastest striking speed in the manga - BUT what you don't seem to understand my friend, is you seem to ignore Kisame's description of the technique, which it explains *why* it's moving that fast. It *explains why* my friend. It's not just illustrative, because it also has an explanation backing it up. *Because of that explanation* (sorry for the caps) it becomes a LAW created by Kishimoto Masashi in terms of a human with no outstanding cloaks or such. Hence the fact that Minato must not be moving his arms at that speed because it does not tick the box for *the rule created by Masashi Kishimoto*.

Secondly, there is not scientific proof that I know of that says an object catches on fire when it moves at the speed of light. Since I don't remember any scientific experiment that moves an object at the speed of light to see the reaction.



Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Yea Jad don't go with the fire thing..



But it is a RULE created by Mashashi Kishimoto. You guys say "Oh Minato has been stated by the manga to be the fastest" but you CHOOSE to ignore an explanation/description made fact by Kisame? Come on, you are being hypocritical.

As I have proven with not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 pieces of evidence, Minato arm/hand speed is not implicitly shown to move at a speed that could be considered super sonic, or ticks the box for the rule Kishimoto has explicitly stated in his manga. Stated I say again, stated and explained, not just illustrated for aesthetics which you believe, but have been taken time to be described.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time to keep re-explaining myself when I have shown you pieces of evidence from Minato that shows his arm speed movement is nothing to boast about. But you choose to ignore and try to subtly pick on Gai. Am I not being clear enough?

If it's just you, Likes Boss, and tkPirate that believe Minato's arm speed movement is faster then a 6th Gated Gai whose move is named and described, then maybe I should leave you guys to your small group of believers and be content with that.​


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## Lurko (Jan 21, 2014)

Dude ypu are the only one who believes that....


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## Jad (Jan 21, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Dude ypu are the only one who believes that....



So I am the only one that believes Gai in the 6th Gate can punch faster than Minato? Is that what you are saying?


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## Lurko (Jan 21, 2014)

Jad said:


> So I am the only one that believes Gai in the 6th Gate can punch faster than Minato? Is that what you are saying?



No there are obviously other people but not much but yea.


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## Jad (Jan 21, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> No there are obviously other people but not much but yea.



You gotta be more clear than that. Yes or No? Because that statement by you contradicts itself. You said other people have the same belief as me, but then you say "but yea", which answers my question. Hence the statement contradicts itself.

Am I the only one who believes that Gai in the 6th Gate can throw a faster punch than Minato, yes or no?


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## Lurko (Jan 21, 2014)

Omfg! Yes you know what I meant!


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## Lurko (Jan 21, 2014)

What I'm trying to point out is that majority believe Minato is faster in every way then there are people like you who don't.


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## tkpirate (Jan 21, 2014)

@jad, even without FTG minato is the fastest hukage,and should be be fastest ninja in the manga except BM naruto and god tiers.and  we are talking about minato so Ei is irrelevant here.i think i already said why those 4 examples are wrong.i'm not saying gai is slow,i'm saying minato is faster.nothing you said proves that gai is faster than minato.and we are not talking about science here,we are talking about fiction.i never said anything that moves faster than light catches fire.


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