# Challenger Arena - TD&TS (Pein Rikudo) vs Troyse22 (Hoshigaki Kisame)



## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 25, 2017)

*Challenger Arena Battle*
@Troyse22 vs @The Death & The Strawberry​*Match*: Pein Rikudo vs Hoshigaki Kisame
*Location*: Sannin Battlefield
*Starting Distance*: 100 Meters
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC + To Kill
*Version*: Kisame + Samehada / Pein Rikudo (Alive)
*Restrictions / Stipulations*: 

Kuchiyose: Gedo Mazo

Word count: 500-1500 words per post.
*Number of posts: 4 Posts each (minimum*)

*JUDGES YOUR VOTES MUST BE IN ON FEBRUARY 1ST WEDNESDAY 4:53 PACIFIC STANDARD TIME ABOUT ONE-TWO DAYS AFTER TROYSE22 GETS IN HIS LAST REBUTTAL.*​The first post will be your Introductions on why your character wins. The rest are rebuttals

*The Judges*:
1. @Veracity
2. @WorldsStrongest
3. @UchihaX28 (waiting on troyse to decide)​
*Spoiler*: _Voting Criteria that the Judges will use_ 





Analysis (The level of thinking and analysis)
Creativity (The creativity) 

Structure (The structure/flow of argument/Visually appealing)​
Factual (Are they using logical/factual contents from the manga?) ​
Persuasiveness (How persuasive were they? Did they convince you?) ​

On the basis of S, A, B, C (+/-)
For example:
*Analysis - S+*
(Followed by reason - How far did they go to analyse a situation? The level of thinking and detail?)

*Creativity - A-*
(Followed by reason - New methods of winning that you didn't previously thought of? Combinations that you didn't know existed?)

*Structure - B+*
(Followed by reason)

*Factual - C-*
(Followed by reason - Point out things you see seriously wrong. Point out on things you didn't previously know. )

*Persuasiveness - S+ *
(Followed by reason - Did you changed your mind on the match up? Did you gain a new perspective?)​



*This thread is for participants only

Other posters can observe or show encouragements via Like, Dislike etc. If you want your own match, go challenge it here: 
*​

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 1 | Useful 1 | Optimistic 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 25, 2017)

@Troyse22 / @The Death & The Strawberry -- If there is anything you would like to change just let me know. 
Also if you're not participating in this debate don't address the arguments - this thread is for Troyse22 & TD&TS lets respect the rules of NBD Challenger Arena

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 25, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> *Restrictions / Stipulations*:
> 
> Kuchiyose: Gedo Mazo


Odd.
I don't recall either of the contestants stating this to be restricted.
Good luck to each contestant!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 25, 2017)

About start on my intro, ill finish tommorow or the day after


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 25, 2017)

Good luck
@Troyse22 @The Death & The Strawberry

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sapherosth (Jan 25, 2017)

Good luck and have fun, both of you. 

Also special thank you to @HandfullofNaruto  for creating the threads! As you can see, I am super lazy haha.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 2


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## Troyse22 (Jan 25, 2017)

This will be one of the most defining debates in NBD history.

Good luck @The Death & The Strawberry expect my rebuttal tomorrow night or the next day

Reactions: Funny 1


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## theRonin (Jan 26, 2017)

Good luck to both.
@Troyse22 and @The Death & The Strawberry


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## Serene Grace (Jan 26, 2017)

*Introduction*: I believe that Pein would take this matchup about low-diff(mid diff if he plays around). I think this due to the Pains overwhelming power, to go with his versatility. They have no real holes in their arsenal that can be expoilted by Kisame...like *nothing*, and can overwhelm just about anyone(bar god tier/exteremly high tiers). This matchup becomes even more one sided when we see a man, who Kisame acknowledged as his superior coming with an end result of this, after fighting pain 

If someone acknowledged by kisame, to be his superior, gets treated like that against pain, then it doesn't look to well for Kisame.

Though let me break down how Pain wins this battle.

*1.Countering waterdome:*
Waterdome can be considered to be Kisame's trump card, or go to if I may say. Sadly Pain has atleast two counters to waterdome
- Preta path absorbs it before it becomes a problem, as its shown the dome takes times to fully accumulate 
Waterdome can be absorbed from all directions, due to pretas absorption barrier, allowing him to absorb chakra at all directions, and without having to physically touch it.
- ST completely and utterly negagetes it, along with blasting Kisame and Samehada away( breaking a few bones in the process as well) if the force was strong enough to do this , along with breaking the bones of the gamatrio , thinking that it negagetes Waterdome along with blasting Kisame and Samehada away is almost a no brainer. Kisame would *be *helpless against as his durability feats pale in comparison to ST's destructive feats, nor would he be able to react to a head on Shinra tensei

*2. Pains edge from close and far range:*
Pain not only has a laughable edge against Kisame in CQC, but he also has a ridiculous edge at a distance as well. 
*Short*: The pains have shared vision+numbers meaning theirs no blindsides to their taijutsu, and they can also overwhelm their opponent with their numbers advantage as well. While fighting in CQC Kisame has to worry about getting soul ripped by human path as well as, avoiding decapitated by asura paths blades, and chakra rods which can manipulate Kisamea chakra if it hits him, hea dodging these all at the *same time.*

*Long range: *Pain is also exteremly equipped to fight from long range as well. With Asura lasers, heat speaking missiles  
And devas BT along withs its ST, Kisames definitely gonna have hands full from long and short range.

*Each path, and their signifance in this fight.
*
The paths aren't only dangerous because "lol chibaku tensei", its their amazing teamwork coupled with their  unique powers. These two aspects working in perfect conjunction is what makes the paths so dangerous, and nigh unbeatable by most characters.

*Animal Path*-The most pivotal thing for this path is cerberus, kisame can't put it down so he inevitably gets overpowered by it,  he's also gonna have to fight multiple summonings at once, a pleothora of which are comparable to gambunta in size.
*Deva path:* ST discredits any physical or chakra based assault kisame can dispatch and can be utilized on a sufficiently substantial scale to bust waterdome easily, and can likewise repulse ninjutsu which means daikodan, 1000 sharks and waterdome all get negagated and become useless. BT can isolate kisame from samehada when the battle begins, and can likewise be utilized as a part of group assaults that will execute kisame, BT kisames head into asura paths mammoth sword, BT kisame into preta path and kisame gets his chakra totally depleted away, BT kisame into ningendo and kisame gets 1 shotted by means of soul rip.

*Human Path*-BT in conjunction with soul rip equals auto win for Pain as one touch and kisame is done, BT makes sure that one touch happens

*Preta path-* devours and absorbs all of kisames ninjutsu 100% nullifying it and making the paths stronger(irony)this includes waterdome, 1000 sharks and daikodan,  all of which are chakra develops and all things considered can be consumed by preta/rinnegan.

*Naraka Path*-The distinct advantage in actually any battle paim has against somebody without full learning, Naraka is the thing that makes pain nigh unstoppable without information. Kisame would sit idle and low on stamina, at the same time piling on a few injuries himself, as he needs to rub and hook every last bit of the best approach to try and remain alive here, so in the improbable occasion he downs one of pains bodies, naraka just restores him, and kisame is starting over from the beginning, just this time, hes fit as a fiddle. Naraka wouldnt be managed out ofany battle right on time, as pain knows how important he is and dependably ensures he is the most secured, setting narakas wellbeing among even deva ways, as observed when they accepted arrangement against naruto. Naraka path is the brilliant ticket to an outlive triumph against anybody and possible key factor in this battle( well if it even last this long).

*Asura Path*-Death lasers and heat seeking rockets to spook kisame from range, and huge awful cutting edge to complete him with in a combo with deva,(hint...decapitation ).

*Chibaku tensei*: If Kisame somehow lives up to this point, he gets finishes by CT, as he doesn't have the DC to even phase it the slightest. If its gravitational force was strong enough to recover from  a TBB, then Kisame isn't doing literal crap to escape.

*Conclusion*: In the rundown, Pain has different approaches to manage kisame, Pain lacks chakra based jutsu which means kisame wont be able to absorb anything  which means samehada can't heal him, severly decreasing and limiting his "durability", which means, when Pain brings out his big guns, Kisame dies, plain and simple. All of kisames ninjutsu is discredited by 2 ways, even daikodan and waterdome are pointless, samehada is nothing but futile and can be stolen from him by deva, his exclusive alternative is lacking elbow room, where he gets overpowered and in the long run his soul gets stolen, or gets quite bit wounded like Jiraya did. Pain can likewise outlive kisame because of naraka, samehada wont keep kisame above water in this battle, as it wont find the opportunity to retain chakra and wont have the capacity to recuperate kisame accordingly. Pain has a plethora of ways to triumph or Kisame, that its not even funny.






*
*

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Serene Grace (Jan 26, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> This will be one of the most defining debates in NBD history.
> 
> Good luck @The Death & The Strawberry expect my rebuttal tomorrow night or the next day


Good luck bro. I look forward to seeing your arguments


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## Serene Grace (Jan 26, 2017)

Lol I was arguing under the assumption that CST is restricted. Depends on Troysee if he wants to restrict CT and CST.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 26, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Lol I was arguing under the assumption that CST is restricted. Depends on Troysee if he wants to restrict CT and CST.



Just makes my argument easier, however it doesn't show that Kisame is superior to Pein, leave them unrestricted.

*Intro

The Tailed Beast Without a Tail, Kisame Hoshigaki*



I will be explaining why Kisame takes this battle in a mid-high difficulty battle.

As per Pein's battle style, he will utilize Animal first, likely summoning Cerberus first. Kisame can handily deal with any summon with Water Prison, the scale can be adjusted by Kisame by simply adding more water and chakra, something that's absolutely no problem for Kisame. Animal is nearly useless in this battle. Kisame possesses Tsunade/SM Naruto levels of strength, and will toss other summons like Team Rocket

Launching a low rank Suiton to feel Pein out. Since Nagato isn't particular about hiding his paths abilities, he will have Preta jump in and absorb it. Kisame at that point knows Preta absorbs Ninjutsu, and will likely engage in CQC.

At this point, Deva will intervene and ST Kisame, to which Kisame tanks with almost no damage. Kisame possesses roughly V2 Susanoo levels of durability against brute force. For example, EMS Sasuke behind V2 Susanoo would probably be KO'd by Hirudora. And ST is not even close to force of Hirudora.

Kisame now knows at least 3 of the paths abilities, at this point he can clearly notice that each of the paths possess different abilities, he is now prepared for different abilities from the other paths.

BT+ Soul Rip is OOC, and won't happen, the only place its happened is in the BD 

Animal dies early on to Kisame, Naraka revives Animal. Kisame now knows of Naraka's abilities, and see's defeating him as priority, then Preta, then Deva.

Asura starts partaking in the battle, but Asura is pretty overrated. Pretty featless and only has the feat of blowing off Jiraiya's arm in a surprise attack.

Jiraiya was casually dodging a barrage of attacks from Asura, there's no reason Kisame can't replicate this feat.

Kisame knows of the majority of the paths abilities at this point, and looks to finish the battle. He summons Waterdome, which Preta immediately attempts to absorb, there's one problem with this though, the quantity of Water is gargantuan, so much so that Preta couldn't ever hope to absorb it all in any kind of respectable time.

Nagato, realizing the dire situation of the battle, uses ST only to discover that ST is but a pebble in comparison to Waterdome and does nothing.

Kisame is merged with Samehada at this point and immediately goes for Preta who is attempting to absorb his Waterdome. Underwater, the Paths cannot cover each other and Preta falls to a few powerful strikes by Kisame. The paths are weak in terms of durability, with preta being killed by just one SM punch. A few powerful strikes by Kisame that managed to nearly KO Bee will kill Preta.

Kisame knowing of Naraka's revival abilities at this point, proceeds to destroy him underwater, he provides no resistance.

Human dies in the crossfire.

Kisame knows Deva is a threat in CQC, so he proceeds to bring him down quickly, Deva ST's but it's nearly ineffective vs Kisame underwater, Kisame swims back over and kills him in the 5 second interval. With only Asura and Animal alive at this point, there's nothing Nagato can do to salvage the battle. Waterdome is way too huge to be overwhelmed by Animal's summons.

Asura's non factor underwater, his arsenal will have absolutely no travel speed.


In short, Kisame can outlast and overwhelm Pein pretty easily.

Pein gives him a harder time than Bee, but Kisame is still above Pein.

Nagato has also canonically admitted inferiority to Kisame.


I look forward to an extensive debate covering everything in detail >

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Serene Grace (Jan 26, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I will be explaining why Kisame takes this battle in a mid-high difficulty battle.






Troyse22 said:


> Kisame can handily deal with any summon with Water Prison, the scale can be adjusted by Kisame by simply adding more water and chakra, something that's absolutely no problem for Kisame. Animal is nearly useless in this battle. Kisame possesses Tsunade/SM Naruto levels of strength, and will toss other summons like Team Rocket


Why are you under the assumption that the paths would fight individually? The paths fight in union, combing each other their unique, is what makes them so hard to beat. The paths aren't just gonna stare at Kisame while he has Cerberus in water prison, their gonna try to attack him which they can do from far range via Asura laser, missiles, ST, or pull Kisame in with BT, or from close range via shared vision, chakra rods to manipulate Kisame's chakra, soul rip and asura blades.



Troyse22 said:


> Animal is nearly useless in this battle.


Wrong, he can serve as a distraction, with his multiple summonings and can give the paths an aerial advantage with his bird summoning.



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame possesses Tsunade/SM Naruto levels of strength, and will toss other summons like Team Rocket


Exteremly unsubstantiated show me the strength feats Kisame has to suggest this. Even if this bs was true, he wouldn't be able to fight all the paths in CQC+numbers as he'd be trying to evade a soul rip, asuras blades and knives, and chakra rods to fuck Kisame over, he isn't dodging all that shit at once.



Troyse22 said:


> Launching a low rank Suiton to feel Pein out. Since Nagato isn't particular about hiding his paths abilities, he will have Preta jump in and absorb it. Kisame at that point knows Preta absorbs Ninjutsu, and will likely engage in CQC.


You're again not understanding the paths fighting style. They lean on teamwork, they wouldn't just be looking at preta while he's fighting by himself, nor would they isolate themselves for no reason.



Troyse22 said:


> At this point, Deva will intervene and ST Kisame, to which Kisame tanks with almost no damage.


This notion is exteremly and utterly baseless. Kisame hasn't shown durability near this scale, like not even close, especially since ST did this  
And literally broke the bones of the gamatrio

I thinks it easy to concur otherwise for this notion of kisame "tanking ST"



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame possesses roughly V2 Susanoo levels of durability against brute force. For example, EMS Sasuke behind V2 Susanoo would probably be KO'd by Hirudora. And ST is not even close to force of Hirudora.


Kisame does not, and repeat does not have any durability feats, that put him at V2, or any durability feats that suggest he tanks ST. You have a weird definition of "tanking" something, Kisame was hit with one punch after taking Hirudora and got wiped out *clean, *meaning after getting hit with Hirudora it was clearly too much for his body, hence why he passed out. Show an actual durability feat, not a faulty one such as this.



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame now knows at least 3 of the paths abilities, at this point he can clearly notice that each of the paths possess different abilities, he is now prepared for different abilities from the other paths.


I doesn't matters if he "knows" anything, he won't be able to stop them if their all together due to their numbers in CQC(which they will), he wont be able to over power them from far range due to Asura heat seeking rockets, as well as his lasers, and Deva paths ST, or BT, he won't be able to fire ninjutsu due to preta path eating 1000 sharks, Daikodan and waterdome, he won't be able to absorb chakra due to them not having any chakra based projectiles/attacks so he wouldn't have access to his "durability", allowing him to literally get one shot by Peins big guns.



Troyse22 said:


> Animal dies early on to Kisame,


 I think not. The other paths aren't gonna still back looking helpless while Kisame engages in CQC with animal bath, like I said before their exteremly deadly due to their teamwork that's coupled with their amazingly unique abilities.



Troyse22 said:


> Asura starts partaking in the battle, but Asura is pretty overrated. *Pretty featless*


Kappa 
The aoe of those missiles will prove to be exteremly difficult for Kisame to dodge, while having to deal with his lasers as well, and a BT or a ST to sprinke a little more pain on kisame



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame knows of the majority of the paths abilities at this point, and looks to finish the battle. He summons Waterdome, which Preta immediately attempts to absorb, there's one problem with this though, the quantity of Water is gargantuan, so much so that Preta couldn't ever hope to absorb it all in any kind of respectable time.


The notion of Preta path absorbing slow is exteremly false, its not even funny. 
1. Absorbed senpo goemon, so fast that Jiraiya didn't know whaht happened to it 
2.absorbed an odomma rasengan that was at least 5-6 times his size, maybe bigger, at a fast rate 
3.  
4. Absorbing V2 bee chakra clean, samehada was only able to drop him back to V1, preta absorbed everything.
Waterdome coming at different angles wouldn't really be a problem, due to Pretas absorption barrier, that allows him to absorb chakra from all directions. Even if we were to say it doesn't absorb every thing, we can concur on tht notion of it absorbing it before it becomes a problem, given the fact that the dome has shown to take time to fully accumulate 



Troyse22 said:


> Nagato, realizing the dire situation of the battle, uses ST only to discover that *ST is but a pebble* in comparison to Waterdome and does nothing.


 I again disagree, unless you consider the gamatrio to be pebbles. The thought of one of them being considered to be a pebble is weird, but all three HEAVILY doubt it. ST broke the bones of all of them, it wouldn't be hard to come to a conclusion of waterdome getting pasted by ST.



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame is merged with Samehada at this point and immediately goes for Preta who is attempting to absorb his Waterdome. Underwater, the Paths cannot cover each other and Preta falls to a few powerful strikes by Kisame.


No they wouldn't. Waterdome would be getting absorbed by Preta, which would all in all decrease the size of it severely, or at least keep it at bay from getting bigger. All of this, toppled on to the fact that Waterdome takes time to fully acculumate, waterdome would not reach the point at which Kisame can fuse with Samehada, an would likely be negagated by ST, as its baseless/you lack the feats to suggest an underdeveloped Waterdome would be able to tank a ST, that broke the bones of the gamatrio.



Troyse22 said:


> The paths are weak in terms of durability, with preta being killed by just one SM punch.


Key word SAGE MODE punch, you're saying this as if Sage mode doesn't drastically increase ones strength, and it doesn't hurt that Kisame doesn't have strength feats comparable or on par to SM Naruto.


Troyse22 said:


> A few powerful strikes by Kisame that managed to nearly KO Bee will kill Preta.


Sadly Preta would absorb the waterdome before it becomes a problem, or he'd just absorb it to keep it at bay, while Deva path, horribly rapes the underdeveloped waterdome.



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame knowing of Naraka's revival abilities at this point, proceeds to destroy him underwater, he provides no resistance.


Useless due to my reasons above



Troyse22 said:


> Human dies in the crossfire.


Yah no, waterdome would be taken care of insuring his safety.



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame knows Deva is a threat in CQC, so he proceeds to bring him down quickly, Deva ST's but it's nearly ineffective vs Kisame underwater,


Why is it nearly ineffective? What durability feats has waterdome shown, to suggest it wouldn't be negagated by ST? You're gonna have to show some.



Troyse22 said:


> In short, Kisame can outlast and overwhelm Pein pretty easily.


Hmm I think its the other way around buddy. With Naraka path being the key factor, he could just revive the paths, that have been downed already, and before you say " then kisame will just go for him first", remember pain knows how important he is and dependably ensures he is the most secured, setting narakas wellbeing among even deva ways, as observed when they accepted arrangement against naruto.  Again you gotta to stop using the logic of a singular path fighting Kisame, they work *together, *and rely on teamwork coupled with their individually unique powers/abilities, in summary *they stay together*. You're also missing out the fact that Pain lacks chakra based projectiles/attacks so the only way Kisame can absorb chakra from them, is by going for physical contact, and he's gonna need to engage in CQC for physical contact to be possible, which as you already would lead to Kisame getting utterly and hilariously raped, as he has to deal with soul rip(which is only 1 touch), asura blades and knives and chakra rods, that can manipulate and agitate ones chakra 


Troyse22 said:


> Pein gives him a harder time than Bee, but Kisame is still above Pein.


Of course Pain gives Kisame a harder time than a *restricted bee*, I can concur on that with you.  when he has the chance.



Troyse22 said:


> Nagato has also canonically admitted inferiority to Kisame.


Hmm this seems unprecedented, care to show me where this was stated?

You also say you don't wanna restrict CST, or CT which I don't understand because:

CST : Pain completely flys out of the raduis, at which Kisame can hit him  meaning kisame cant reach him, and cant escape the blast radius of a village busting CST, so he gets stomped if it hits him as he doesn't have durability feats, any where near this, if you think otherwise, you can happly provide feats to suggest so. Unless you can show me Kisame flying, or hitting someone with a ninjutsu when their that high up in the air, he gets downed fast.

CT: Kisame doesn't have the firepower to destroy this, nor does even have a way to even phase it in the slightest so he dies.

This fight also becomes even mroe of a stomp, when we throw out the famous NBD myth of pain being "slow"
He had the speed to respond to and in like manner avoid SM Jiraiya's assault , point clear evades Kakashi's Raikiri, you need to recollect, Kakashi had 3TS precog on, he could move the assault and envision the avoid, however he couldn't, not once, but rather twice.  He could keep running from a KN6 Naruto for a long time to prep Chibaku Tensei , and could evade a FRS. That being said, I dont wanna hear any "lol kisame blitzes pain", especially when they have the numbers advantage along with shared vision, also supplemented with asura blades/knives, soul rip and chakra rods all *at the same time*, that being said CQC is an almost auto death for Kisame.

:metacatmoving on.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 26, 2017)

Want to note that whenever Troyse says "Preta took forever to absorb it" those instances only happened in anime.
Like TD&TS pointed out, Preta literally absorbed Goemon and Jiraiya reacted AFTERWARDS.
Preta sucked COR in two panels, it only took long in the anime.

Won't be making any other comments however, I will say that I am currently leaning towards TD&TS mainly due to him showing a plethora of scans and having a better layout IMO. Waiting for Troyse's rebuttal to see if he can shift my opinion


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## Troyse22 (Jan 26, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Want to note that whenever Troyse says "Preta took forever to absorb it" those instances only happened in anime.
> Like TD&TS pointed out, Preta literally absorbed Goemon and Jiraiya reacted AFTERWARDS.
> Preta sucked COR in two panels, it only took long in the anime.
> 
> Won't be making any other comments however, I will say that I am currently leaning towards TD&TS mainly due to him showing a plethora of scans and having a better layout IMO. Waiting for Troyse's rebuttal to see if he can shift my opinion




Nah it took multiple panels in most circumstances.

Not refering to the anime, refering to manga.

Now please leave this to me and TD

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ayala (Jan 26, 2017)

- Nagato has also canonically admitted inferiority to Kisame.

Last night i dreamed i was swimming in a pool full of money. But how can i call it "canon" though 


*Spoiler*: _True story _ 



I canonically killed a whole gang a week ago, and then I teleported in class...

Reactions: Winner 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 26, 2017)

there is so much I want to say about both sides​

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Parallaxis (Jan 26, 2017)

Tagging users to view and vote after the debate is finished.
@Icegaze @t0xeus @cctr9 @Isaiah13000 @WorldsStrongest @JiraiyaFlash @professor83 @UchihaX28 @LAZLOLAZZING @oiety @Ryuzaki @Turrin

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 26, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Now please leave this to me and TD





professor83 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dude...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 26, 2017)

Can you guys just follow the rules for once? Is it truly THAT hard? 


Leave your comments until after they've both finished.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 26, 2017)

It's one thing to comment on their debate but





HandfullofNaruto said:


> if you're not participating in this debate





HandfullofNaruto said:


> *don't address the arguments* - this thread is for Troyse22 & TD&TS lets respect the rules of NBD Challenger Arena

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Jan 27, 2017)

Vote for @PhantomSage


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## Serene Grace (Jan 27, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Vote for @PhantomSage


 That's weird @PhantomSage isn't even debating for this topic.


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## Icegaze (Jan 27, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> That's weird @PhantomSage isn't even debating for this topic.




Doesn't change my vote though

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 27, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Doesn't change my vote though


what?
did you mean to post in me and toxeus debate?


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## Icegaze (Jan 27, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> what?
> did you mean to post in me and toxeus debate?



I DID not

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 28, 2017)

Alright, let's not clog up this thread anymore so we can have room for the debaters.
Currently both debaters have made their intros, TD has done his rebuttal, and we await Troyse's rebuttal...

I will edit this post in later with the three fair, unbiased judges who will each present a detailed analysis and cast their vote, using the criteria shown in OP and the TBCA thread.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 29, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> who Kisame acknowledged as his superior coming with an end result of this, after fighting pain *Spoiler*:
> 
> If someone acknowledged by kisame, to be his superior, gets treated like that against pain, then it doesn't look to well for Kisame.




All of this is nonsense.

1. Sannin hype was retarded in P1.
2. Kisame didn't have any big techs in P1, if he had what we saw in P2, he would never make such a statement.
3. Bringing that up shows me that the rest of your argument is trash, but i'm gonna address it for shits and gigs.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> *1.Countering waterdome:*
> Waterdome can be considered to be Kisame's trump card, or go to if I may say. Sadly Pain has atleast two counters to waterdome
> - Preta path absorbs it before it becomes a problem, as its shown the dome takes times to fully accumulate *Spoiler*:
> Waterdome can be absorbed from all directions, due to pretas absorption barrier, allowing him to absorb chakra at all directions, and without having to physically touch it.
> - ST completely and utterly negagetes it, along with blasting Kisame and Samehada away( breaking a few bones in the process as well) if the force was strong enough to do this




Except Kisame formed this gargantuan dome in 1 page, and merged with Samehada at the same time. Preta path would be casually overwhelmed. The quantity of chakra is simply way way way way too much for Preta.

Disagree all you want, it took the homie a full page to absorb a big Rasengan.

It would need to be CST to disperse Waterdome, the one used on the Gamatrio won't be enough, and the small one sure as hell won't even put a dent in it.

The water is held together by chakra, and gravitates toward Kisame, wherever he goes, the dome goes, if he gets pushed back by ST in Waterdome, it'll do nothing but open up Deva to a brutal assault.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> *2. Pains edge from close and far range:*
> Pain not only has a laughable edge against Kisame in CQC, but he also has a ridiculous edge at a distance as well.
> *Short*: The pains have shared vision+numbers meaning theirs no blindsides to their taijutsu, and they can also overwhelm their opponent with their numbers advantage as well. While fighting in CQC Kisame has to worry about getting soul ripped by human path as well as, avoiding decapitated by asura paths blades, and chakra rods which can manipulate Kisamea chakra if it hits him, hea dodging these all at the *same time.*
> 
> ...



The paths do not possess any kind of edge against Kisame in CQC, the dude was trolling V1 Bee, who is far superior to 6POP in CQC

The paths have never shown to fight as a unit (all 6 at the same time.) The only time this was done was to deliver the finishing blow onto Jiraiya, it's not their go-to and you saying otherwise highlights your lack of knowledge on Pein in general. They will never be able to put Kisame down like Jiraiya. Jiraiya has no regen-medium stamina-sub par CQC Skills etc. Kisame excels in all of these categories and more.

He can casually handle 1-2 paths at a time, which has always shown to be their go-to for CQC.

Pein cannot utilize weapons in CQC, the only weapons he has shown to wield is chakra rods, guess what...Kisame has canonically absorbed chakra from Kunai that pierced his skin, he'd be absorbing chakra DIRECTLY out of Nagato. Chakra Rods are a HORRIBLE idea to use against Kisame, he was able to almost KO Aoba after just a few seconds of absorbing chakra, a chakra rod or two would drain Nagato not nearly as fast, but within a respectable 10-20 second time frame.

Piercing Kisame with chakra rods is the equivalent of giving Naruto free unlimited ramen for a year.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> *Animal Path*-The most pivotal thing for this path is cerberus, kisame can't put it down so he inevitably gets overpowered by it, he's also gonna have to fight multiple summonings at once, a pleothora of which are comparable to gambunta in size.




Already addressed, not addressing again. when I say this, i'm not trying to dismiss you, it's either because you ignored when I addressed it or you just didn't see it.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> *Deva path:* ST discredits any physical or chakra based assault kisame can dispatch and can be utilized on a sufficiently substantial scale to bust waterdome easily, and can likewise repulse ninjutsu which means daikodan, 1000 sharks and waterdome all get negagated and become useless. BT can isolate kisame from samehada when the battle begins, and can likewise be utilized as a part of group assaults that will execute kisame, BT kisames head into asura paths mammoth sword, BT kisame into preta path and kisame gets his chakra totally depleted away, BT kisame into ningendo and kisame gets 1 shotted by means of soul rip.




For Deva to use ST on a substantial scale, that requires the paths to be deactivated or killed, it also takes significant prep. The only thing that disperses water dome in this battle is CST, and given the reasons above, it will be non factor here.

If Kakashi can swing a chain and wrap it around a rock, Kisame can swing Samehada pretty easily, if he gets BT'd into Asura you know what's gonna happen? A decapitated Asura and a Deva who's shitting his pants. Bringing Kisame into CQC in NOT something the paths should do. Already addressed BT+Soul rip nonsense.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> *Human Path*-BT in conjunction with soul rip equals auto win for Pain as one touch and kisame is done, BT makes sure that one touch happens



Already addressed.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> *Preta path-* devours and absorbs all of kisames ninjutsu 100% nullifying it and making the paths stronger(irony)this includes waterdome, 1000 sharks and daikodan, all of which are chakra develops and all things considered can be consumed by preta/rinnegan.




Except Preta makes his ability VERY obvious, any path that's not Asura, Animal or Deva is casually handled.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> *Naraka Path*-The distinct advantage in actually any battle paim has against somebody without full learning, Naraka is the thing that makes pain nigh unstoppable without information. Kisame would sit idle and low on stamina, at the same time piling on a few injuries himself, as he needs to rub and hook every last bit of the best approach to try and remain alive here, so in the improbable occasion he downs one of pains bodies, naraka just restores him, and kisame is starting over from the beginning, just this time, hes fit as a fiddle. Naraka wouldnt be managed out ofany battle right on time, as pain knows how important he is and dependably ensures he is the most secured, setting narakas wellbeing among even deva ways, as observed when they accepted arrangement against naruto. Naraka path is the brilliant ticket to an outlive triumph against anybody and possible key factor in this battle( well if it even last this long).




Naraka is non factor, he has no defense, his only defense is the other paths, and as i've explained in my scenario, is rather useless. The only paths who live are paths who have extreme offense or extreme defense (Asura, Animal, Deva) The rest die in the crossfire.

Naraka restoring anything more than once will not be happening in this battle.


You're underestimating Kisame's stamina and endurance so badly it's not even funny. The dude had enough strength to break chakra suppressing Mokuton and use water prison coupled with sharks for suicide. This was Kisame in his very final moments. He's not going to be tired after absorbing chakra from rods and the 6POP, fuck outta here with that shit man 



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> *Asura Path*-Death lasers and heat seeking rockets to spook kisame from range, and huge awful cutting edge to complete him with in a combo with deva,(hint...decapitation ).




Addressed the Deva+Asura combo.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> *Chibaku tensei*: If Kisame somehow lives up to this point, he gets finishes by CT, as he doesn't have the DC to even phase it the slightest. If its gravitational force was strong enough to recover from a TBB, then Kisame isn't doing literal crap to escape.




CT has only been shown to be usable with all the other paths deactivated, at this point it's too late. Deva is either already dead or is going to be within a matter of seconds.

CST and CT are non factor.

Reactions: Friendly 1 | Dislike 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 30, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Bringing that up shows me that the rest of your *argument is trash, but i'm gonna address it for shits and gigs.*


Wait, wait..pause for a quick sec. You call my arguments trash when you say stupid shit like "Kisame having strength on par with Tsuande and SM Naruto", " Kisame tanking a ST, that broke the bones of the gamatrio", "Kisame has higher reactions than Juudara, by potrayal and feats",  for fucks sake "Kisame admitted inferiority to Nagato"? Do  your hear yourself? I reply to that stupidity with nice words and you insult me? Let's fucking get it then.



Troyse22 said:


> Sannin hype was retarded in P1.


Kisame's garbage " tailess beast" hype pales in comparison to the sanin hype. What has he done or what hype has he got that suggests hes superior to Jiraiya, oh wait nothing. I'm using basic hype and portrayal that Kishi has established in both pt1 and 2, if you can't see that then I'm sorry for you.




Troyse22 said:


> Except Kisame formed this gargantuan dome in 1 page,


Expect he formed it against a guy with no chakra absorption abilities whatsoever, and that said guy was looking staright at Kisame when he merged with Samehada. Pain is not stupid like bee, he'll hit him with a ST, sending Kisame flying away since he's the center of his dome like you said, and hasn't shown any durability feats, to suggest he just takes a ST without receiving any sort of broken bones nor any that suggest he would stand in the same place after being firred with one that broke the bones of the gamatrio. Kisame either
1. Gets sent flying by ST, while being the knocked the fuck out
2. Gets sent flying by ST, while having broken bones, and being separated from Samehada. You have no basis you doesn't get sent flying by something that broke the bones of thr gamatrio, nor do you have feats to suggest he walks it off without breaking any bones.




Troyse22 said:


> merged with Samehada at the same time


Yet that same Bee was fucking . Pain is not that stupid, nor is it IC for him to not go for the kill.



Troyse22 said:


> Preta path would be casually overwhelmed.


1. Why because it absorbed an odoma rasengan  at exteremly fast rate
2., 
3.  while Samehada dropped it to V1.
4.Because if absorbed a rasen shuriken in mere seconds?

if that's your basis, then thank Preta has no problem absorbing Waterdome before it becomes a problem



Troyse22 said:


> Disagree all you want, it took the homie a full page to absorb a big Rasengan.


Nah you just have an extremely flawed interpretation of it, like that isn't a surprise.



Troyse22 said:


> It would need to be CST to disperse Waterdome,


show me waterdomes durability feats that suggest it could brush off a force that literally broke the bones of the gamatrio, I'll be waiting. Waterdome is a ninjutsu, ST repels ninjutsu, so there isn't much of anything to suggest it wouldn't when its literally broken the bones of the gamatrio before. Also not sure why you think the  the Paths are vulnerable underwater when the suction force of BT will reel in Kisame like a fish on a fishing pole which will prevent Kisame from being able to maneuver freely underwater.



Troyse22 said:


> and the small one sure as hell won't even put a dent in it.


Wrong either the small one blasts him and his waterdome away (as hes the center of the dome), or the one used on the gamatrio, sends Kisame flying with broken bones, as well as sending Samehada flying in a different direction separating them from each other, and or just completely negates Waterdome as it is a ninjutsu. Again im confused how you think the Paths are useless underwater when the suction force of BT will reel in Kisame like a fish on a fishing pole which will prevent Kisame from being able to maneuver freely underwater, making his fusion with samehada useless



Troyse22 said:


> The water is held together by chakra, and gravitates toward Kisame, wherever he goes, the dome goes, if he gets pushed back by ST in Waterdome, it'll do nothing but open up Deva to a brutal assault.


What? That's stupid. If he gets sent flying by a  ST which will break his bones, and separate him from samehada he won't be able to hold up the waterdome, nor will he able to do shit to it.



Troyse22 said:


> The paths do not possess any kind of edge against Kisame in CQC, the dude was trolling V1 Bee, who is far superior to 6POP in CQC


this point is worse than your "lol semantics" logic. Kisame wasnt keeping Killer bee
> Kisame Dodges a lazily thrown PENCIL from Bee
> Killer Bee goes V1 and rushes Kisame, Kisame can only block with Samehada
> Killer Bee stupidly rushes him with V1 multiple time again
> Killer Bee goes V2 and blitzes him and he needs to rely on Samehada's own movement to block
> Knocks Kisame into a tree and caves in his chest

You call that shit keeping up? Try again, show me some respect speed feats, and CQC feats that suggest he overwhelms 4-6 paths all at once with shared vision, asura blades, and soul rip. Another thing which is pretty sad is that, Kisame had the benefit of fitting an opponent who's chakra aura is clearly visible, which is how Samehada absorbs. Samehada needs physical contacts to absorb chakra, something he likely wouldn't get due to Pain either manipulating Kisames sword with his BT, or him simply getting overwhelmed by Shared vision+numbers. Paths have already reacted to Rasengan shurkien, and A SM punch from Jiraiya, Kisame isn't overwhelming literal...again shit
Show me actual CQC feat that suggests he doesn't get overwhelmed in CQC by 5-6 paths going at him at once. The paths were able to format, and react to FRS, no way in hell is Kisame getting the edge over their formation in CQC, with his irrespectable speed feats


Troyse22 said:


> The paths have never shown to fight as a unit (all 6 at the same time.) The only time this was done was to deliver the finishing blow onto Jiraiya


Look at you contradicting yourself, like usual. The fact they did it once, in canon means theres nothing stopping them from all attacking kisame if the situation calls for it, plain and simple. Since their explicitly trying to kill Kisame, they should have no reason to all over power him in CQC, nor do you have an actual basis to suggest that they wouldn't. 



Troyse22 said:


> They will never be able to put Kisame down like Jiraiya. Jiraiya has no *regen*-medium


Sadly neither will Kisame. Kisame can't absorb chakra due to pain having no chakra based projectiles so no absorption for kisame, or regen. Pain can also manipulate Samehada with BT. Pain has manga knowledge, meaning hes aware that Kisame is a swordsman, and likes to engage in CQC, he'll know that if he takes Kisame's sword away, he'll be close to use, the only way he does absorb chakra is by getting physical contact with the pains, and you already know how bad that shits gonna turn out don't wesharred vision+ numbersvadvantage fucks Kisame over, he isn't avoiding decapitation,  soul rip, and other paths fighting him at the same time, well he would unless:

1. Kisame has eyes behind his back
2. Pain has a visible chakra aura that Kisame can absorb
3. Kisame has frog kata
4. has sound genjutsu, since taijutsu and ninjutsu were stated to be useless, by a SM Jiraiya whos far more skilled in CQC than Kisame.
Kappa



Troyse22 said:


> sub par CQC Skills


what show me Kisame's CQC feats that compare to SM Jiraiya, please entertain me.



Troyse22 said:


> He can casually handle 1-2 paths at a time, which has always shown to be their go-to for CQC.


Go to.I already addressed this, but I'll say it again.
It's exteremly stupid for you to say that since the only times they used "1-2" paths was against Jiraiya who pain was trying his best not to give out any knowledge by not bringing out all 6 paths, also wasn't trying to o blow up shit in his own city, and were clearly joking around with him, when Animal path was just spamming his summonings, when he got serious Jiraiya got trashes in mere second. This parellels to Kisames faith, in this matchup just far...faar worse.

Naruto: Pretty self explanatory, pain tried his best to stay away from Naruto CQC due to his SM, which is explicitly why, once it ended the first thing he did was go into CQC.

Pain has no reason to restrict himself against Kisame, since he's explicitly trying to kill Kisame, so the paths have no reason to separate themselves.



Troyse22 said:


> Pein cannot utilize weapons in CQC, the only weapons he has shown to wield is chakra rods, guess what...Kisame has canonically absorbed chakra from Kunai that pierced his skin, he'd be absorbing chakra DIRECTLY out of Nagato. Chakra Rods are a HORRIBLE idea to use against Kisame, he was able to almost KO Aoba after just a few seconds of absorbing chakra, a chakra rod or two would drain Nagato not nearly as fast, but within a respectable 10-20 second time frame.
> 
> Piercing Kisame with chakra rods is the equivalent of giving Naruto free unlimited ramen for a year.


Doesn't need chakra rods, asura blades prove to be more useful, FAR more useful, as they it can cut literally any part of Kisames body. Though if it does hit him, we have no literal basis to suggest Kisame would be able to absorb the chakra, when the chakra rods are gonna be agitating his chakra once they hit him. Because he absorbed chakra from fodder you automatically think he's gonna drain Nagato an UZUMAKI(naturally have extereme amounts of chakra) dry, dude fought Konoha and destroyed it with a chakra taxy CST, used a plethora of his techs against Naruto, made a mini moon to try an trap his kyubi transformation, and used rinne rebirth to bring back all the people he killed. Nagato realizes that Kisame is absorbing chakra from him, he gets deva to use BT to rip the rods out of Kisame, and gets the chakra back by absorbing Kisames ninjutsu..so it still works for Pein in the end...nice try


Troyse22 said:


> If Kakashi can swing a chain and wrap it around a rock, Kisame can swing


What? This makes no sense. Kakashi swung his chain in the *opposite* direction, to counteract the force at which BT pulls in its opponent, and even then he wasn't able to escape BT. Kisame wouldn't be able to swing samehada while being pulled against his will, as its gravitational pull is too strong,  though even going by this logic again Pain could either 1. BT Samehada away from Kisame prior to him using BT on Kisame
2. Get a far less significant path to jump in front of the blade like he did here
3. Lmao dodge the blade being swung. He's reacted to far faster things so theres no basis to suggest he couldn't react to Samehada being swung, and then slice either Kisames head or arm off.



Troyse22 said:


> gets BT'd into Asura you know what's gonna happen


Yep. Asura Dodges the initial swing then slices either Kisame's head or arm off, leaving him open to get overwhelmed by the rest of the paths.



Troyse22 said:


> Bringing Kisame into CQC in NOT something the paths should do. Already addressed BT+Soul rip nonsense.


Bringing Kisame into CQC against the paths that have were able formulate, and react to FRS, have shared vision+numbers advantage is NOT something Kisame wants to do, as specified by someone far superior to Kisame in CQC(SM Jiraiya) if you don't agree with me, show me feats to suggest hes superior to SM Jiraiya in CQC, who was getting dealt with by 3 paths, imagine Kisame fighting all 6 or 5. CQC? Possibly the dumbest thing Kisame could do



Troyse22 said:


> Except Preta makes his ability VERY obvious


WTF. What does it being obvious have to do with Preta absorbing chakra?  The point of the matter, Kisame gets all of his ninjutsu including Daikodan, 1000 sharks and waterdome, which gets absorbed While the other back preta up, while hes absorbing, he's also never shown any hesitation when absorbing ninjutsu before, I don't know why you foolishly assume he will now. Sure it can, he could either start absorbing as soon as kisame pukes up the water, which means the dome never even accumulates enough water to form in the first place, or he just drink it all once its formed, preta can eat massive amounts of chakra instantly as shown when it ate through bees V2 instantly, a waterdome wont take long either, and its far from pains only option anyway.  


Troyse22 said:


> Already addressed, not addressing again. when I say this, i'm not trying to dismiss you, it's either because you ignored when I addressed it or you just didn't see it.


Use your head, how can I ignore your argument when I posted the intro you're replying to first first? The point you also gave was stupid, as Kisames never done a big enough water prision to catch an entity as big as Cerberus, and even if he stupidly tries to do that, he gets left vulnerable as he has to keep his hand in the prison to be able to maintain it, so he either gets sliced or blasted by asuras missiles and knives, or he gets sent flying by a ST from Deva.

And before you say "but, but Kisame can use It through waterclones"

Remember that:
1.he needs to isolate the paths, neither of the paths are going to be run to engage in CQC individually with 3 different clones, as well as Kisame. Their gonna all attack in a group, and as you know that means Kisame and his clones will get overwhelmed by the paths and animals summonings. The only shot he has is blindsiding them, but we already know that's impossible due to shared vision. Theirs also deva that nullifies it/pull the paths that got trapped out with BT and preta that absorbs it.
2.Neji, TenTen and Lee all don't have linked vision like the paths, so pleaae don't use that as a comparison. Sharred vision means no blindside attacks, and no CQC activity, something neji, Lee and 10 10 didn't have the  benefit of having, this is unless Kisame isolates them, which he has nothing in his arsenal to do.

3.Kisame also had the location advantage, of being right under water, see he could immediately make his clones
So don't say this because I know you will


Troyse22 said:


> Naraka is non factor, he has no defense, his only defense is the other paths, and as i've explained in my scenario, is rather useless. The only paths who live are paths who have extreme offense or extreme defense (Asura, Animal, Deva) The rest die in the crossfire.
> 
> Naraka restoring anything more than once will not be happening in this battle.


He doesn't need defense. He has the other paths protecting, if Kisame fires suiton at Naraka preta formulates absorbs it. Kisame fires daikodan or pukes up waterdome, Preta absorbs it, or Deva nullifies it. The paths aren't gonna let Kisame separate Naraka from them, they'll protect him throughout the whole fight by countering Kisames jutsu.



Troyse22 said:


> You're underestimating Kisame's stamina and endurance so badly it's not even funny. The dude had enough strength to break chakra suppressing Mokuton and use water prison coupled with sharks for suicide. This was Kisame in his very final moments. He's not going to be tired after absorbing chakra from rods and the 6POP, fuck outta here with that shit man


I think I over estimated him by saying he'd kill enough paths, forcing Naraka to revive one of them, if gets trashed in CQC due to asura blades, soul rip and shared vision+ numbers advantage. He gets trashed from a distance due to Asura missiles, and lasers, BT taking Samehada away from Kisame, or ST.



Troyse22 said:


> CT has only been shown to be usable with all the other paths deactivated, at this point it's too late. Deva is either already dead or is going to be within a matter of seconds.



Sadly he isn't killing any important paths, maybe animal path, and even then animal path could  . So there inst really anything fast enough in Kisames arsenal that could hit animal path, before he summons something to counteract Kisames attack...so CT is NOT useless lol. He defintely isnt killing Deva, who has a hard counter to all his techs from close and long range, lmfao Other then that he can't overwhelm any paths the paths in CQC, nor can he overwhelm them from a distance so...yah



Troyse22 said:


> *CST* and CT are non factor.


Wrong. Wrong, so wrong. 
Pain flies/jumps at extreme heights when using CST, meaning kisame cant reach him, and cant escape the blast radius of a village level CST, so he gets trashed if this comes out. So no CST is not a non factor lol. Though there last resorts so no biggie
No more nice guy bullshit. IBN4 Kisame tanks CST, or Kisame swims away from CT...

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2 | Dislike 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 30, 2017)

@Sapherosth  tag the judges, so they can see the progress of this debate


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## Parallaxis (Jan 30, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> @Sapherosth  tag the judges, so they can see the progress of this debate


Can't you just tag them yourself?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 30, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Can't you just tag them yourself?


I don't know who the judges are.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 30, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I don't know who the judges are.


@Veracity
@WorldsStrongest
@UchihaX28

Get your asses in here 
Apparently Troyse is about to "dismantle TD's awful rebuttal with laughable ease".


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## Veracity (Jan 30, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> @Veracity
> @WorldsStrongest
> @UchihaX28
> 
> ...



Don't we just wait till the debate is over to post??


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 31, 2017)

The cut off date/deadline should be added to the OP, that way the judges who were not paying attention to when this debate started (such as myself lol) know when they need to have their analysis in.

Itd also be helpful to the debaters as they know how much time they have left as well.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 31, 2017)

Will have rebuttal up Wednesday night or Thursday afternoon

If you don't like it too bad, some of us have things to do.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 31, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> The cut off date/deadline should be added to the OP, that way the judges who were not paying attention to when this debate started (such as myself lol) know when they need to have their analysis in.
> 
> Itd also be helpful to the debaters as they know how much time they have left as well.


I will add it to the OP immediately - though just to be sure - @Sapherosth the deadline for a debate is seven days correct?


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## Sapherosth (Jan 31, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I will add it to the OP immediately - though just to be sure - @Sapherosth the deadline for a debate is seven days correct?




The debates will go on for 5 days and another 2 days for the judges to give their votes.


So basically-

5 days for debates to be completed. 

2 days for votes from judges.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 31, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> The debates will go on for 5 days and another 2 days for the judges to give their votes.
> 
> 
> So basically-
> ...


It is the sixth day I believe. So @Troyse22 I wouldn't bother with that rebuttal.

@Veracity / @WorldsStrongest / @UchihaX28 - you have until February 1st Wednesday 4:53pm Pacific Standard time to submit your vote.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 31, 2017)

Ill get crackin on my analysis soon, should be up soon


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## Troyse22 (Jan 31, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> It is the sixth day I believe. So @Troyse22 I wouldn't bother with that rebuttal.
> 
> @Veracity / @WorldsStrongest / @UchihaX28 - you have until February 1st Wednesday 4:53pm Pacific Standard time to submit your vote.




Fuck off, there was no deadline in place at the start of this thread

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 31, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Fuck off, there was no deadline in place at the start of this thread


Id have to agree with Troy on this one, he should be allowed to make at least one more rebuttal, as it stands now TD&S has a major advantage as he has one rebuttal over Troy, judges should wait until their post count is equal at minimum, seems only fair.

Im gonna hold off my judging until he puts forth his next rebuttal

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Bonly (Jan 31, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Fuck off, there was no deadline in place at the start of this thread



I as well agree with Troy on this. There is to be a minimum of four post by each person(well  supposedly ) and so far Bleach chapter one has 3 post compared to Troy's two post and the deadline wasn't set up before their match started therefore it shouldn't be forced upon them unless both of them agree to it, otherwise the deadline should apply to threads starting with the next match.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 31, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Fuck off, there was no deadline in place at the start of this thread


Fuck off? Heheh fuck on, bitch.


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Allow @Troyse22 to get another rebuttal, I don't wanna hear any excuses or bitching from him.





WorldsStrongest said:


> Id have to agree with Troy on this one, he should be allowed to make at least one more rebuttal, as it stands now TD&S has a major advantage as he has one rebuttal over Troy, judges should wait until their post count is equal at minimum, seems only fair.
> 
> Im gonna hold off my judging until he puts forth his next rebuttal


I have no problem with Troyse22 getting in his last rebuttal - you wanted to know the deadline for judging so I just applied the seven day rule to this thread (five days to debate and two to judge). If you want more time -- glad to give it to you.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 31, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Fuck off? Heheh fuck on, bitch.
> 
> I have no problem with Troyse22 getting in his last rebuttal - you wanted to know the deadline for judging so I just applied the seven day rule to this thread (five days to debate and two to judge). If you want more time -- glad to give it to you.


I don't really want extra time though, I felt like I addressed everything in my previous rebuttal. Just let him have his final rebuttal, so we can get to judging.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 31, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I don't really want extra time though, I felt like I addressed everything in my previous rebuttal. Just let him have his final rebuttal, so we can get to judging.


Yea I figured - already edited the OP .. Judges have 1-2 days to vote once troyse has finished its rebuttal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (Feb 1, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Bump, bump.



You bumping when his rebutal isn't even up yet, how that works bro


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## Serene Grace (Feb 1, 2017)

Just tryna make sure it doesn't disappear. People are making a lot of threads, so this one could be thrown into the abyss of un bumped threads


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## Troyse22 (Feb 2, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> You call my arguments trash when you say stupid shit like "Kisame having strength on par with Tsuande and SM Naruto"



Kisame was stated to have Bijuu like strength.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Kisame tanking a ST, that broke the bones of the gamatrio"



When have the Gamatrio proven themselves exceptionally tanky? All 3 were KO'd after being thrown into a couple of rocks. Kisame got his entire ribcage and chest blown out, and was still able to remain conscious and talking. V1 Bee managed to almost cut Sasuke in half from his midsection with a V1 Lariat, whereas Kisame didn't do nearly the same extent of damage to Kisame with a V2 Lariat as he did to Sasuke with a V1 .

Kisame is much, MUCH tankier than the Gamatrio.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> "Kisame has higher reactions than Juudara, by potrayal and feats"



False.

I said JJ Mads was above Kisame in reactions based on Portrayal

Whereas Kisame is above JJ mads in reactions based on feats 

(Of course, the overall power difference between JJ Mads and Kisame is immeasurable)



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Kisame's garbage " tailess beast" hype pales in comparison to the sanin hype.








The Death & The Strawberry said:


> What has he done or what hype has he got that suggests hes superior to Jiraiya, oh wait nothing. I'm using basic hype and portrayal that Kishi has established in both pt1 and 2, if you can't see that then I'm sorry for you.



I wonder how Jiraiya would have done against V2 Bee

Oh yeah, he would've gotten shit diffed.

Whereas Zetsu/Kisame explicitly states that he wasn't so tough.



The Higher end Akatsuki were supposed to be viewed as above the Sannin, that's an indisputable fact (Higher end Akatsuki=Nagato, Pein, Obito, Itachi and Kisame)

Kisame was barely a light in Kishi's eye in P1, his statement from then means nothing when he has feats contradicting that statement.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Expect he formed it against a guy with no chakra absorption abilities whatsoever, and that said guy was looking staright at Kisame when he merged with Samehada



Not sure what you're trying to say here.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Pain is not stupid like bee,





Dude was straight up taunting the Jinchuuriki of Kurama, and proceeded to get one of his strongest techs (CT) shit diffed as a result.

Pain is not nearly as smart as you like to make him out to be.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> and hasn't shown any durability feats,



Bee's V2 Lariat did less damage to Kisame than a V1 Lariat did to Sasuke.
If Hirudora brought Kisame to near KO-d, it would rape any of the 6POP with shit diff.

Unless you're going to argue that the paths possess better durability than Kisame

Addressed the rest of the ST nonsense earlier in this post.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Why because it absorbed an odoma rasengan  at exteremly fast rate



Jiraiya had time to acknowledge what it was doing, and it took an entire page for Preta to accomplish it.

Waterdome is 100000x+ bigger than Preta, it would take a long ass time for it to absorb it.

Preta would be casually overwhelmed.


Nagato is canonically stronger than Pein, don't really need to address this.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> ,




The steam/smoke was blocking his vision.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Because if absorbed a rasen shuriken in mere seconds?




Something Samehada would absorb instantaneously.

Unless you're going to dispute that a V2 cloak contains less chakra than a Rasen Shuriken 



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Nah you just have an extremely flawed interpretation of it, like that isn't a surprise.





Explained earlier in this post.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> how me waterdomes durability feats that suggest it could brush off a force that literally broke the bones of the gamatrio, I'll be waiting. Waterdome is a ninjutsu, ST repels ninjutsu, so there isn't much of anything to suggest it wouldn't when its literally broken the bones of the gamatrio before. Also not sure why you think the the Paths are vulnerable underwater when the suction force of BT will reel in Kisame like a fish on a fishing pole which will prevent Kisame from being able to maneuver freely underwater.



It doesn't matter when the scale of Waterdome is much, much, much, MUCH bigger than the scale of a standard ST. The Water is also held in place by chakra connected to Kisame. It would hold in place around Kisame.

As for BT. Pulling Kisame closer to you while he's merged with Samehada underwater 

Deva would get fucked up REAL quick.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Wrong either the small one blasts him and his waterdome away (as hes the center of the dome), or the one used on the gamatrio, sends Kisame flying with broken bones, as well as sending Samehada flying in a different direction separating them from each other, and or just completely negates Waterdome as it is a ninjutsu. Again im confused how you think the Paths are useless underwater when the suction force of BT will reel in Kisame like a fish on a fishing pole which will prevent Kisame from being able to maneuver freely underwater, making his fusion with samehada useless




To take Samehada from Kisame whilst merged with him, you need to physically rip it out of his body as per Kisame's statement (not sure how that would work considering it's physically merged with him) but whatever.

Pushing Kisame isn't going to do shit.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Kisame Dodges a lazily thrown PENCIL from Bee



That downplay 

It was a blindside attack that Kisame didn't see coming until it was within half an inch of his head.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Killer Bee goes V1 and rushes Kisame, Kisame can only block with Samehada





That logic is laughable, to assume Samehada reacted because Kisame couldn't is stupid, considering he reacted to the far faster V2 blitz. 

Was able to react to a blindside attack.

I mean...cmon man 

Kisame also blocked AND counterattacked Bee.

He blocked and counterattacked against a 3 way blitz.





The Death & The Strawberry said:


> You call that shit keeping up? Try again, show me some respect speed feats, and CQC feats that suggest he overwhelms 4-6 paths all at once with shared vision, asura blades, and soul rip. Another thing which is pretty sad is that, Kisame had the benefit of fitting an opponent who's chakra aura is clearly visible, which is how Samehada absorbs. Samehada needs physical contacts to absorb chakra, something he likely wouldn't get due to Pain either manipulating Kisames sword with his BT, or him simply getting overwhelmed by Shared vision+numbers. Paths have already reacted to Rasengan shurkien, and A SM punch from Jiraiya, Kisame isn't overwhelming literal...again shit
> Show me actual CQC feat that suggests he doesn't get overwhelmed in CQC by 5-6 paths going at him at once. The paths were able to format, and react to FRS, no way in hell is Kisame getting the edge over their formation in CQC, with his irrespectable speed feats



Showed you the feats.

Show me Asura's Kenjutsu feats suggesting he can keep up with Kisame in CQC with his blades 



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Look at you contradicting yourself, like usual. The fact they did it once, in canon means theres nothing stopping them from all attacking kisame if the situation calls for it, plain and simple. Since their explicitly trying to kill Kisame, they should have no reason to all over power him in CQC, nor do you have an actual basis to suggest that they wouldn't.



Yeah, because it's perfectly IC for all the 6 paths to just start off right away trying to immediately blitz Kisame. The stupidity of that argument alone is enough for me to just quote it and let the judges laugh at you

They're not all going to blitz Kisame and pin him down with chakra rods in CQC.

Even if in your fanfic land they do, guess what happens when Kisame is pierced with 6+ chakra rods? 

Dude will fucking kill Nagato from taking all of his chakra.

Thank you for handing me an argument against your baseless fanfic autism logic though 



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> *Sadly neither will Kisame*. Kisame can't absorb chakra due to pain having no chakra based projectiles so no absorption for kisame, or regen. Pain can also manipulate Samehada with BT. Pain has manga knowledge, meaning hes aware that Kisame is a swordsman, and likes to engage in CQC, he'll know that if he takes Kisame's sword away, he'll be close to use, the only way he does absorb chakra is by getting physical contact with the pains, and you already know how bad that shits gonna turn out don't wesharred vision+ numbersvadvantage fucks Kisame over, he isn't avoiding decapitation, soul rip, and other paths fighting him at the same time, well he would unless:




Stopped reading at bold

Work on the quality of your arguments before you spew them 

You know what? I will address them.

Kisame has canonically absorbed chakra directly out of the Hachibi as per its own statement 




Unless you're going to tell me the extent of Hachibi's chakra is a couple of V1 and V2 cloaks 

Samehada has a flexible and extendable handle, Kisame will not be disarmed from Samehada. Even if he is, Samehada makes its way back over to Kisame.




The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Kisame has eyes behind his back



Can sense chakra in all directions via Samehada merge



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Pain has a visible chakra aura that Kisame can absorb




Addressed that earlier in this post



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Kisame has frog kata
> 4. has sound genjutsu, since taijutsu and ninjutsu were stated to be useless, by a SM Jiraiya whos far more skilled in CQC than Kisame.



These 2 points are so retarded and cringey that i'm not even going to address them.

Kisame would clown Jiraiya in CQC.

Unless you're going to say that Jiraiya is above Bee in CQC? 



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> what show me Kisame's CQC feats that compare to SM Jiraiya, please entertain me.



Was clowning Bee until he went V2

Was clowning Konoha Jounin

Was ready to take on Hebi 4v1

Was able to force a Taijutsu master (Might Guy) into his second strongest gate using his strongest tech in said gate



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Doesn't need chakra rods, asura blades prove to be more useful, FAR more useful, as they it can cut literally any part of Kisames body. Though if it does hit him, we have no literal basis to suggest Kisame would be able to absorb the chakra,






Kisame has canonically absorbed chakra from Aoba that was supposed to Paralyze Kisame.



Love shutting down an argument with a single scan, it feels way too easy.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Doesn't need chakra rods, asura blades prove to be more useful, FAR more useful,



Despite never being used for anything useful?





The Death & The Strawberry said:


> What? This makes no sense. Kakashi swung his chain in the *opposite* direction, to counteract the force at which BT pulls in its opponent,




By that logic, you're admitting the force at which BT attracts is trash.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Get a far less significant path to jump in front of the blade like he did here
> 3. Lmao dodge the blade being swung. He's reacted to far faster things so theres no basis to suggest he couldn't react to Samehada being swung, and then slice either Kisames head or arm off.



Pein's reactionary feats aren't all that impressive, considering the distance at which Rasen Shuriken was from Pein.

Kisame has Bijuu level strength, to assume he can't swing Samehada fast enough to hit Pein in CQC is ridiculous.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Yep. Asura Dodges the initial swing then slices either Kisame's head or arm off, leaving him open to get overwhelmed by the rest of the paths.



Asura dodges face to face Samehada swing, the largest of the SOTM swords and counterattacks? 

Not gonna happen.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Bringing Kisame into CQC against the paths that have were able formulate, and react to FRS, have shared vision+numbers advantage is NOT something Kisame wants to do, as specified by someone far superior to Kisame in CQC(SM Jiraiya) if you don't agree with me, show me feats to suggest hes superior to SM Jiraiya in CQC, who was getting dealt with by 3 paths, imagine Kisame fighting all 6 or 5. CQC? Possibly the dumbest thing Kisame could do



Already addressed your retarded 6 on 1 OOC nonsense. This entire paragraph is pointless.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> WTF. What does it being obvious have to do with Preta absorbing chakra? The point of the matter, Kisame gets all of his ninjutsu including Daikodan, 1000 sharks and waterdome, which gets absorbed While the other back preta up, while hes absorbing, he's also never shown any hesitation when absorbing ninjutsu before,




Can tell you're running out of arguments, considering i've already addressed how Kisame combats preta TWICE. Stop bringing up old arguments as if they're new.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Remember that:
> 1.he needs to isolate the paths, neither of the paths are going to be run to engage in CQC individually



Do I really need to get a bunch of scans showing all of the times the paths have tried to 1v1 someone in CQC, or are you just going to delete that argument?



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Their gonna all attack in a group








The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Neji, TenTen and Lee all don't have linked vision like the paths, so pleaae don't use that as a comparison. Sharred vision means no blindside attacks, and no CQC activity, something neji, Lee and 10 10 didn't have the benefit of having, this is unless Kisame isolates them, which he has nothing in his arsenal to do.




Shared vision doesn't matter in water prison. 

Kisame can use Suiton clones to distract and isolate the paths.

Water blocks LoS from shared vision.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> .Kisame also had the location advantage, of being right under water, see he could immediately make his clones
> So don't say this because I know you will





I'll let you figure out what's wrong with this argument, and i'll give you a chance to delete it



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> He doesn't need defense. He has the other paths protecting, if Kisame fires suiton at Naraka preta formulates absorbs it. Kisame fires daikodan or pukes up waterdome, Preta absorbs it,





Addressed preta



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Wrong. Wrong, so wrong.
> Pain flies/jumps at extreme heights when using CST, meaning kisame cant reach him, and cant escape the blast radius of a village level CST, so he gets trashed if this comes out. So no CST is not a non factor lol. Though there last resorts so no biggie
> No more nice guy bullshit. IBN4 Kisame tanks CST, or Kisame swims away from CT...




Nagato also has to dismantle all other paths to use these CST, and Deva needs to be close to Nagato in order to use CT.

That's why they're non factor.



The rest of your argument is already stuff i've addressed. You made Pein look much, MUCH weaker than he actually is. Your arguments are inconsistent and directly contradict what we've seen in the manga. Your almost borderline creepy obsession with using OOC arguments has destroyed your entire argument and made you appear to be one of, if not the worst debater in NBD history.



After all of that trash talk you did, you made Pein look like trash.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 2, 2017)

Judge away judges, as far as i'm concerned, this debate is done.


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## Serene Grace (Feb 2, 2017)

That might have been the worst trash I read in my life.

- you literally implied that Kisame is more durable than the gamatrio combined
- Said Kisame had better reaction feats than Juudara
- Kisame would somehow avoid the suction if BT
-  called pain stupid because he was taunting Kurama.
- said Kisame could be fighting Asura, while being pulled against his will by BT
- water blocks the los, of shared vision when Bee with glasses was clearly and vividly directly at Kisame while being under water.
-bijuu like strength
This is the nonsensical bullshit I was afraid, and you ironically call me the worst debater in NBD, my fucking gosh


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## Troyse22 (Feb 2, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> That might have been the worst trash I read in my life.
> 
> - you literally implied that Kisame is more durable than the gamatrio combined
> - Said Kisame had better reaction feats than Juudara
> ...



Kisame is more durable than the Gamatrio individually without question.

How the fuck you got "combined" durability out of that is beyond me

He does have better reaction feats.

Never said he'd avoid BT

Pain is stupid

Asura hasn't shown anything incredible with his blades, for you to suggest he can go toe to toe with a Kenjutsu master is laughable.


But anyways, cry all you want, your entire argument is fucked.

I'm done posting here regarding the arguments, you've lost.


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## Serene Grace (Feb 2, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> you've lost.


Lol, if you could only comprehend the shit you just posted...anyways I don't care let's wait for the judges


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## Serene Grace (Feb 2, 2017)

@HandfullofNaruto @Sapherosth 
Were done here.

@Veracity @WorldsStrongest @UchihaX28 
Y'all can start on your votes/analysis.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Feb 2, 2017)

I'll have my analysis and vote up by tomorrow.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Feb 2, 2017)

@Veracity @WorldsStrongest @UchihaX28 


Don't hold back. Give them both your honest analysis based on their arguments.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 2, 2017)

My vote will be done via a side by side analysis of how each competitor fared in each category of the judging criteria...
*
Analysis - 
@Troyse22 = S+
@The Death & The Strawberry = S+*
(Followed by reason - How far did they go to analyse a situation? The level of thinking and detail?)

Not really much that i need to point out here, both debaters went to great lengths to cover their bases and went to great detail on how and why they believe their side should win.

@The Death & The Strawberry went to great detail by breaking down how each individual path is likely to be used in each situation, and outlined their individual importance to the overall group. He addressed how the Paths can counter a great many things kisame can throw at them. He laid out how kisame isnt safe at any range, how kisame wont get the chance to absorb much of anything from pain as he doenst use anything kisame can even attempt to absorb.

@Troyse22 had great points as well, pointing out how kisame can overcome the knowledge gap by baiting preta into absorbing a lowly suiton and gaining info on its ability from that, pointing out narakas lack of ability when it comes to defending itself and outlining the fact that it only has the other paths to defend it, and pointing out that in order for deva to use any of his larger techniques the other paths need to be out of the picture first.

*Creativity - 
@Troyse22 = A+
@The Death & The Strawberry = A-*
(Followed by reason - New methods of winning that you didn't previously thought of? Combinations that you didn't know existed?)

@Troyse22 and his point about kisame being able to counter chakra rods via absorbing chakra out of them was awesome, ive never thought about that before and its safe to say that has never once occurred to me. That was a stellar point, as i went into this thinking chakra rods were going to be a problem for kisame. He also took an interesting stance when it came to defending kisames stamina by pointing out everything he was able to accomplish just prior to dying, that was a refreshing way to flesh out endurance and ive never seen it argued from that side before.

@The Death & The Strawberry had a point when it came to Deva being able to seperate kisame from samehada at any point in time with BT, that was a major point that can easily tip the battle in pains favor very early. TDS also pointed out that pain doenst use any techs kisame could absorb, which is a creative way to neutralize one of kisames key abilities.

*Id need to give the edge to @Troyse22 in this category tho*, that point on countering chakra rods was unseen by my eyes until now.

*Structure - 
@Troyse22 = A-
@The Death & The Strawberry = A+*
(Followed by reason)

@The Death & The Strawberry wins this category solely due to the fact he took the time to add a text color to make his post more aesthetically pleasing.

Better luck next time @Troyse22

Nah im just kidding, now on to the real judging...

Overall, both debaters had well laid out posts, easy to read, well presented points.

But i would have appreciated the use of more scans throughout each of their posts. When debating in this style, you need to assume that everyone who reads your post is coming across this information essentially for the first time, your points need to be substantiated. And while this is a forum where it is more than safe enough to assume that everyone has read the manga, assuming that they havent encourages you to cover your bases and back up your points with scans.

Now im not saying every damn point you make needs to be accompanied by a scan, and im certainly not implying you need half the manga crammed into your post, but a few extra scans here or there go a long way, and may even jog the memory of an avid reader of the manga and more easily sway them to your side.

But you need to be careful with this as there can be such a thing as using too many scans in your argument as well, which clutters up your post considerably, but i had no worries about that as neither poster went overboard in that department.

*@The Death & The Strawberry has the win in this category tho,* he used scans well throughout his posts in his intro and his rebuttals, whereas @Troyse22 really only bothered to include them in his rebuttals, and even then he did so rather sparingly.

*Factual -
@Troyse22 = A-
@The Death & The Strawberry = A+*
(Followed by reason - Point out things you see seriously wrong. Point out on things you didn't previously know. )

I didnt really notice anything in either post id call outright wrong, but there are a few things i need to address...

@Troyse22 pointed out that he believed kisame to have SM Naruto or Tsunade levels of strength and then kinda just glazed over and moved on...thats not exactly enough to sway me one way or the other. If the point had been somewhat substantiated, backed up by a scan, or you went more in depth on why you have such a viewpoint, i could have maybe let it slide, but just bringing it up in passing doesnt do it for me.

@The Death & The Strawberry did a good job of undermining a few NBD myths surrounding pains downplayed abilities, he countered the assertion that pain is on the slow side by pointing out his ability to defend himself from blindspot attacks from SM jman, he also pointed out that deva can very easily defend against waterdome even if he doesnt bust it, simply by pushing kisame away form the other paths and himself, he would also be moving the entirety of the dome away, allowing for a very easy escape without the paths moving whatsoever.

*@The Death & The Strawberry takes the point here*


*Persuasiveness - 
@Troyse22 = A+
@The Death & The Strawberry = A- *
(Followed by reason - Did you changed your mind on the match up? Did you gain a new perspective?)

@Troyse22 had some very interesting and thought provoking points i hadnt expected to see here, in particular his point about kisame negating chakra rods as he negated aobas chakra needles was really interesting, and as i said earlier, i figured chakra rods were a problem for kisame as hes a CQC fighter. He would have been prone to being hit with them very often and would have suffered their auxiliary effect of agitating chakra of the victim, but kisame could simply turn that to his advantage and gain some chakra instead. I genuinely gained a new perspective from reading that particular point.

@The Death & The Strawberry kinda played it safe imo and didnt take many risks, but his point on how naraka path allows Pain to compete with kisame in stamina or even outlast him was big, as we know in canon, nagato does have less chakra than kisame, so outlasting could have been a problem, but pointing out narakas ability to play medic to the paths and make kisame essentially have to do everything twice was great.

*Id need to give @Troyse22 the edge here tho,* his chakra rod point genuinely convinced me otherwise on  a point i was 100% sure was gonna be trouble for kisame, so big points for that.


*Conclusion:*


All in all, im undecided on who wins this Challenger Arena debate, they tie in the Analysis department by my eyes, and each time i thought one had overtaken the other by winning me over in another area of the criteria, their opponent turned around and stole the next category.

Hate to be that guy, but they bot did a good job in my eyes and i cant pick between em.

*They tie, thats my vote
*

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

@UchihaX28 
@Veracity 

Please present your analysis'/judgements soon, the anticipation is brutal lol


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## Veracity (Feb 4, 2017)

Right when I come home that shits coming. I've been busy the last couple of days but lol it's Friday now.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Veracity (Feb 4, 2017)

_I'm doing mine similar to worlds strongest. @Troyse22  vs @The Death & The Strawberry 

_
*Analysis:*
_*
Troy: A

TDS: A
*
Both did pretty good jobs at giving an analysis of the abilities of their characters and how they could avoid and counter techniques from both sides.
*

Troy: *Great points brought out on how how Kisame can gain intel on each Path of pain. baiting them and using long ranged techniques to study how each path counters his abilities is probably the best way Kisame can gain knowledge. The points made about Kisame being able to counter chakra rods was also something I haven't seen( like WS said). Also pretty smart to bring up some of Kisame's higher end reactions feats against Bee while highlighting the weaknesses in Pains arsenal; like being required to shut down certain paths to use massive scale ST/CT and how Kakashi was seemingly able to react to Bt... distance and preparation seem to be key there. A little disappointed you didn't go into better detail on how Kisame could use Suiton Bunshin to split the paths up and try to fight them separately instead of all together.
*

TDS:  *Went into great detail about how each Path is useful in this battle and how their abilities aren't just what make them strong but their teamwork is also a factor. I like how you broke down how Pain can counter each of Kisame's strong suits like shared vision + numbers advantage cover CQC as Asuma and Animal Path can stay away for long ranged techniques to pressure Kisame. I also agree with the way you Incorporate Deva's central position; essentially he's using he other paths to distract Kisame so he can disarm him of Samehada with BT and then strike him down in CQC. 
*
*_
*Creativity:*
_*
Troy: *S
*
TDS: *A+

I feel that Troy has the slight advantage in creativity with some of the ways he claimed Kisame could counter Pain.


*Troy:* a lot of creative thinking here tbh. Kisame being able to negate the chakra rods by absorbing chakra was great, Kisame being able to dampen the distraction of the summonings via water prison( similar to how Frog call stopped the yaks in their tracks) was interesting, references to Kisame's chakra was needed,  Kisame being able to capitalize on the time it takes Preta to absorb the dome to use his superior speed to attack the paths, and how Kisame should have a skill advantage in CQC compared to the paths.
*
*
*TDS:* Also brought up some great points like Preta absorbing waterdome while Deva blasts Kisame away, Deva separating Kisame from Samehada,  the ways in which each path can be beneficial simultaneously, and how Pain can effectively use Naraka to outlast Kisame by having him keep reviving the paths.
*

Persuasiveness:*_
*
Troy: *B
*
TDS: *B

About equal here.  TDS didn't really bring up much I haven't heard or seen from Pain. TDS came up with excellent ways for Pain to overwhelm Kisame but it stayed in line with norm; the ways you outlined primarily where scenarios that have been created numerous times in pain's behalf. Nothing really new. However, you were easily able to refute many of the posts Troy had with concrete specifics and examples so you get the credit there. Troy, on the other hand, created scenarios in which an outsider to these forums could actually think Kisame wins. He outlined and highlighted counters to Pains techniques that I haven't thought while making sure to highlight Kisame's highs and Pains lows.
*
*
*Structure:*
*
Troy: *A

*TDS*: S-

Nothing much to say here. TDS holds an advantage because he included a plethora of panels from different portions of Pains ''manga life" that stood as refutations to Troy'S rebuttals. He also included manga information and scans that weren't even directly of Pain himself rather of other characters that helped support and tie his arguments together. Like direct manga panels of the sharingan being able to track physical movements and how a single path of pain was able to combat a sharingan user in CQC. Troy focused more on the same panels most of us have seen a million times. I'm not suggesting to include  a panel of every instance Kisame has been in the manga but naybe substantiate the claims you made about Kisame vs[ X character] with scans in the manga. Like how Kisame could overwhelm Base Gai and Base Bee in CQC, then provide scans that prove that Gai and Bee are forces to be reckoned with in CQC. It just serves as more information to help the reader support the argument you have created.


_*Factual:*_

*Troy*: C+

*TDS:* S-

This is what tips the scales honestly. This right here. TDS did a great job of backing up his claims with manga panels and explaining them. Troy, on the other hand, made a lot of claims that were not backed up and then labeled them as 100% facts. That isn't really the case... Here's a run down of some claims/points both of you made that really aren't 100% concrete..


*TDS: *


Sage Jirayia> Kisame in CQC.
Preta being able to stop Kisame from fusing with Samehada
I think we should stray away from Tailess Beast Hype vs Sannin hype.



*Troy:*


Kisame being an upper level of Akatsuki member therefore he is > to Sannin.
Samehada> Preta
Kisame being on the level of Tsuande and Sage Naruto in strength. This claim should not be a fact. You could have avoided such by simply saying he still possessed the necessary strength to overwhelm summons. I agree
Kisame tanking ST
Some of the paths being complete non factors...
I think we should stray away from Tailess Beast Hype vs Sannin Hype
Underestimation of Preta's absorption feats and Hype.
The paths fighting 1 at a time
Kisame being able to beat Bee means he could beat other individuals on Sage Jirayia's level.


My vote goes to @The Death & The Strawberry 


I think the gap could have easily been alleviated if Troy didn't base a majority of his argument on bold unsupported claims.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## Suoh (Feb 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Whereas Kisame is above JJ mads in reactions based on feats

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> This thread is for participants only





Suoh said:


>

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

Veracity said:


> _*Factual:*_
> 
> *Troy*: C+



Just because I didn't post the scans does not make my points not factual.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Just because I didn't post the scans does not make my points not factual.


I don't think that is what he meant (lack of scans = not fact) - he means there are no manga scans in the manga to back up the rather outrageous claims in your debate. I should probably create this rule now - Participants are not allowed to address the Judges votes .. take it to a PM.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I don't think that is what he meant (lack of scans = not fact) - he means there are no manga scans in the manga to back up the rather outrageous claims in your debate. I should probably create this rule now - Participants are not allowed to address the Judges votes .. take it to a PM.



That's Saph's call, not yours

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I don't think that is what he meant (lack of scans = not fact) - he means there are no manga scans in the manga to back up the rather outrageous claims in your debate.



And my claims aren't outrageous, seriously, you're not a judge, shut your fucking mouth.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> That's Saph's call, not yours


we both have infinite power .. though just to be safe I should ask him  @Sapherosth what're your thoughts on participants being allowed to address the Judges votes??


Troyse22 said:


> And my claims aren't outrageous, seriously, you're not a judge, shut your fucking mouth.


He is the one who rated it C+ not me. You seemed confused so I told you that he probably found some of the claims to be outrageous because it isn't completely backed up by the manga.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> He is the one who rated it C+ not me. You seemed confused so I told you that he probably found some of the claims to be outrageous because it isn't completely backed up by the manga.



Wouldn't care if it was rated c+ and he actually gave a legitimate reason.

Implying that my points aren't factual because I didn't provide the scans to assert them does not make them not factual. i could've easily gotten the scans (I should have, i'm not denying that) but to outright call my points not factual is absurd. 

If this is the quality of judging I can expect in the TBCA debates, then I have no interest in continuing with these debates. Fucking.bullshit.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Veracity (Feb 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Wouldn't care if it was rated c+ and he actually gave a legitimate reason.
> 
> Implying that my points aren't factual because I didn't provide the scans to assert them does not make them not factual. i could've easily gotten the scans (I should have, i'm not denying that) but to outright call my points not factual is absurd.
> 
> If this is the quality of judging I can expect in the TBCA debates, then I have no interest in continuing with these debates. Fucking.bullshit.


You really do cry like a little girl when you don't get your way huh?

I legit read all the debating posts with zero bias in mind. I pointed out the flaws in* both* of your arguments and even offered up some suggestions. You two were equal in more than one facet and you even won the creativity portion; so don't act like I evaluated this with bias. I pointed out some of the claims that I thought weren't reliable on* both *sides, you simply had a lot more. It isn't _just_ the amount of unsupported claims you made rather how _bold _they were at times. You should not walk into a debate expecting the judges to agree with everything you say; and when they don't, complain like you can't keep any sense of composure. But that's all I have say. Like it or not, you have to put up with the vote anyway.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

Veracity said:


> You really do cry like a little girl when you don't get your way huh?
> 
> I legit read all the debating posts with zero bias in mind. I pointed out the flaws in* both* of your arguments and even offered up some suggestions. You two were equal in more than one facet and you even won the creativity portion; so don't act like I evaluated this with bias. I pointed out some of the claims that I thought weren't reliable on* both *sides, you simply had a lot more. It isn't _just_ the amount of unsupported claims you made rather how _bold _they were at times. You should not walk into a debate expecting the judges to agree with everything you say; and when they don't, complain like you can't keep any sense of composure. But that's all I have say. Like it or not, you have to put up with the vote anyway.





Troyse22 said:


> Wouldn't care if it was rated c+ and he actually gave a legitimate reason.



What the fuck does your reasoning even mean and how does it make my points any less factual?

"They were too bold"

I don't care if you vote against me, I really don't, but your reasoning is bullshit.

Worlds voted against me in multiple sections, did you see me question his analysis? Nope, because his reasoning didn't make me physically nauseous. Will give him this, he evaluated both sides with an open and unbiased mindset.

You really think I didn't come into this expecting ALL of the judges to vote against me? I'm surprised I even got one to agree to a tie. But yours is exactly the kind of low quality bullshit I was expecting.

If you've read the manga, you'd know most of my statements that I presented as facts are supported by the manga, I simply didn't provide the scans to back them up (which I admitted was an error on my part) but it doesn't make my points any less factual.

Seriously, all I want is for you to explain why me not providing scans makes my points not factual? Can say i'm crying like a little girl all you want, but your judgment in that part is *EDIT: Is* unfair and bullshit. I don't spread misinformation.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Veracity (Feb 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> What the fuck does your reasoning even mean and how does it make my points any less factual?
> 
> "They were too bold"
> 
> ...



I can guarantee you that most people don't agree with all the bold claims( the ones I highlighted) that you made in your post. And instead of backing them up with panels or information you just kept on acting like they were fact.

• Kisame is part of the upper Akatsuki. How? Where? Why? And why does that make him superior to a Sannin?
• Samehada is superior to Preta in absorption rate. How? Where? That hasn't ever been the case in the manga and nobody agrees with you( bar maybe Viz) in the forums.
• Kisame is physically on the level of Sage Naruto and Tsuande? Provide scans of such. They weren't ever present.
• Kisame can tank ST? I'll admit that you attempted to actually back this claim up though. But you only ever convinced anyone that he wouldn't die by the techinque, not that he would tank it.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Seriously, all I want is for you to explain why me not providing scans makes my points not factual?[/QUOTE]@Veracity never said lack of scans in your posts = not fact. that would be stupid


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## Parallaxis (Feb 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> "Kisame magically swinging his sword in direct he's being pulled in by BT"


There's actually nothing wrong with this.
It's similar to the strat that Itachi and co used against CT. Since BT is drawing him towards him he just needs to move his arm to direct Samehada in front of him.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Kisame is part of the upper Akatsuki. How? Where? Why? And why does that make him superior to a Sannin?




All of the upper Akatsuki are superior to the Sannin individually as i've stated in one of my posts.

Itachi KO's any Sannin with genjutsu, they have minimal knowledge and Itachi can force eye contact
Nagato can arguably beat them 3V1
Obito negs them

Kisame's feats speak for themselves, he is as powerful as some of these mentioned shinobi and more powerful than 1 of them. His arsenal is perfect for fighting any of the Sannin, bar Oro who is actually a legitimate threat.



Veracity said:


> Samehada is superior to Preta in absorption rate. How? Where? That hasn't ever been the case in the manga and nobody agrees with you( bar maybe Viz) in the forums.



Samehada has absorbed a V2 cloak instantly, with less than half a second of contact, it took Preta roughly 3-6 seconds to accomplish the same feat.



Veracity said:


> Kisame is physically on the level of Sage Naruto and Tsuande? Provide scans of such. They weren't ever present.




I had scans, but admittedly I didn't provide them, I admit I should've provided the scan, you're right in this situation.



Veracity said:


> Kisame can tank ST? I'll admit that you attempted to actually back this claim up though. But you only ever convinced anyone that he wouldn't die by the techinque, not that he would tank it.




What would happen to Itachi's or Sasuke's V2 Susanoo if met with Hirudora? It would bust it and KO the men behind it. Kisame managed to not only stay conscious, but appeared to be ready to continue the battle until Gai punched him in the stomach/chest again in the 7th Gate.

If AAAA can chop through Ribcage, you can bet Hirudora shit diffs any version of Susanoo bar V3+ all of this is a testament to Kisame's durability. Casual ST doesn't have the feats supporting that it can break even Ribcage Susanoo, let alone put Kisame down.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> There's actually nothing wrong with this.
> It's similar to the strat that Itachi and co used against CT. Since BT is drawing him towards him he just needs to move his arm to direct Samehada in front of him.



Careful, rational thinking is frowned upon by one of the judges and TD&TS

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Parallaxis (Feb 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I think we can all infer that the Ct's gravitation =/= BT's gravatiation. BT concentrations on a single opponent and a single direction, hence it would naturally be stronger, but on a smaller scale. I doubt Kisame could magically use his sword in the direction hes being pulled, since such case has never happened with BT, even if we infere that he could aim his sword in the direction he's being pulled in, he lack any sort of mobility with it, and still wouldn't be able to swing it, that's for sure.


lol what?
Both CT and BT pull a target towards them or a core. 
Hence, him moving Samehada in front of him to block the oncoming attack is possible considering he overpowered Asuma by pressing down with the least heavy part of his blade - while Kakashi was able to swing a chain in the OPPOSITE direction literally COUNTERACTING the attraction force, logically Kisame can maneuver Samehada in front of him (given he is "riding the wave" instead of working against it like Kakashi) and attempt to block or hit.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> him moving Samehada in front of him to block the oncoming attack is possible considering he overpowered Asuma by pressing down with the least heavy part of his blade *with 1 arm*



ftfy


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## Veracity (Feb 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> > All of the upper Akatsuki are superior to the Sannin individually as i've stated in one of my posts.
> 
> 
> But you never proved this. You just lumped Kisame along with Obito, Itachi and Pain as if hes on their level. Portrayal does not support this and it is not a blatant truth.
> ...


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 4, 2017)

If you guys don't mind, I'd like to relax a bit and then spend the night reading through the debate before giving my judgement (tomorrow). I don't feel compelled to read extensively and quickly compile a response.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> If you guys don't mind, I'd like to relax a bit and then spend the night reading through the debate before giving my judgement (tomorrow). I don't feel compelled to read extensively and quickly compile a response.



That's fine, the quality is what's important

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 4, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> If you guys don't mind, I'd like to relax a bit and then spend the night reading through the debate before giving my judgement (tomorrow). I don't feel compelled to read extensively and quickly compile a response.


Unacceptable, i demand to read your hastily written and poor thought out analysis on the subject, your review must be up in the next 20 minutes

I have spoken

Fear me


*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Unacceptable, i demand to read your hastily written and poor thought out analysis on the subject, your review must be up in the next 20 minutes
> 
> I have spoken
> 
> ...




It's been 22 minutes.

Wtf @UchihaX28

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 5, 2017)

Is it safe to assume you're almost done @UchihaX28


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 5, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> If you guys don't mind, I'd like to relax a bit and then spend the night reading through the debate before giving my judgement (tomorrow). I don't feel compelled to read extensively and quickly compile a response.


If i had a watch id be looking at it really condescendingly right now...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 6, 2017)

@Troyse22 @The Death & The Strawberry 

 Just letting you know I read through most of your posts. I thought I'd have finished them, but they're honestly much longer than I had anticipated. I seriously wish the word limit applied to the rebuttals.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 6, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> @Troyse22 @The Death & The Strawberry
> 
> Just letting you know I read through most of your posts. I thought I'd have finished them, but they're honestly much longer than I had anticipated. I seriously wish the word limit applied to the rebuttals.



Legit took me 20-30 minutes to review the entire debate in detail, you're acting as if we're each giving Izaya level essays.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Legit took me 20-30 minutes to review the entire debate in detail, you're acting as if we're each giving Izaya level essays.



 Aight, I read all this clusterfuck in detail and saw everything that I needed to see. I'll post it up tonight, but quite frankly, I don't know if I have much to add because the bulk of the debate was the same, mundane shit that we're all used to.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 7, 2017)

To make it easier to establish the winner, I will be adding a quantitative scoring system to evaluate both candidates for each category. For instance, I will be assigning certain values depending on the grade they receive on the category. For the sake of clarity:

*F* = 0
*C* = 5
*B* = 10
*B+* = 12.5
*A* = 15
*A+* = 17.5
*S* = 20
*S+* = 25

This is so that in the end, I can simply add up the scores that each candidate has which makes it significantly easier to grade who’s the victor. Still the same grading system, but simply more complex.

Without further ado, I will begin my evaluation:


*Analysis -*

@The Death & The Strawberry  - A+ (17.5/125)

@Troyse22 - B (10/125)


@The Death & The Strawberry  - You did an excellent job highlighting how each Path’s abilities would be instrumentally good against Kisame and deliberately capitalized on how Pain’s defense against Kisame’s Suiton would ultimately impel Kisame to confront the Paths directly; making full use of Pain’s Shared Vision to demolish Kisame in CQC based on how Shared Vision was depicted against Jiraiya.

My only issue is that you could’ve dived in further and substantiated how incredible Pain’s Shared Vision was based on its marvelous feats against SM Jiraiya and SM Naruto who made use of numerous Kage Level Shinobi in order to circumvent it. You could’ve also analyzed how SM Naruto required an elaborate diversion to target Animal Path directly to disable Pain’s summons; refuting Troyse’s contempt for Animal Path’s abilities and would’ve left me contemplative as to how Kisame would’ve circumvented Animal Path’s summons.

Scans would’ve also been crucial for hammering a point effectively; as would be expected in any College Class where you’d be expected to derive concrete evidence from a source to support your argument effectively. Failing to do so prevented you from obtaining an S in Analysis.


@Troyse22 - A fundamental aspect of Analysis is not to falsify information presented in the manga and this is precisely what you did. You dishonestly used Kisame’s specious performance against V2 Bee to embellish how Kisame would overwhelm Pain in CQC whilst neglecting the inherent advantage against the Bijuu. You also continued to present ideas while failing to provide a substantial explanation as to how you arrived to the conclusion that you did. You keep arguing that Animal Path is useless without elaborating how this was the case, failed to enunciate why Pain wouldn’t battle united, failed to translate how Kisame’s reactions against Bee would enable him to defeat Pain in combat, and failed to support how Kisame would tank Shinra Tensei. You conveniently present ideas and then end them abruptly; rendering them as vague responses.

You also took a narrative approach and argued that Kisame would this, then Pain does do that without any substance behind it. That alone provided enough justification for me to reject your introduction post which is quintessential to your argument as would be expected for any essay honestly.


*Creativity -*

@The Death & The Strawberry  - A (32.5/125)

@Troyse22 - A+ (27.5/125)


@The Death & The Strawberry  - I was actually quite amused when you considered Bee’s lackadaisy when confronting Waterdome and used that as a means to support that Pain would not allow Waterdome to engulf him. I was also impressed by how you used Naraka Path as a means to strip Kisame from his only advantage; winning via battle of attrition as well as using Pain’s Bansho Tenin to snatch Kisame’s Samehada. Unfortunately, I felt there was more going for Troyse in terms of creativity.


@Troyse22 - Admittedly, while his analysis was lacking, I can’t ignore the amount of creativity instilled in his argument. I never considered Kisame baiting Pain with low-level Suiton nor did I consider Kisame utilizing Water Prison to ensnare Animal Path’s summons. Countering Pain’s chakra rods with his chakra absorption and eluding Bansho Tenin by using Samehada as a grappling hook were intriguing points to consider, so that added many points to your creativity as well.


*Structure -*

@The Death & The Strawberry - A+ (50/125)

@Troyse22 - B (37.5/125)


@The Death & The Strawberry - Not much to say, you provided a detailed introduction and conclusion and sedulously formatted your post which effectively organized each part of your post; how Waterdome is countered and how each Pain’s abilities fare both individually and as a unit. Unfortunately, I felt the rebuttals in general was sloppy and lackluster which prevented what otherwise could’ve been an S or an S+.


@Troyse22 - Not much to say, your introduction was hastily organized and you clearly didn’t give much thought in how you structured your rebuttals though I will give you credit because you did express how Kisame was going to approach the battle initially.


*Factual* -

Get ready for the shitstorm …

@The Death & The Strawberry - S (70/125)

@Troyse22 - C+ (45/125)


@The Death & The Strawberry - There honestly wasn’t anything I disagreed with quite frankly because most of the evidence you presented was on point. I did disagree with Pain utilizing Boss-Sized Shinra Tensei initially because Pain’s ST was insufficient in decisively killing Kakashi when partitioning chakra among 6 Paths. The only time he exhibited extravagant power was when Deva Path had access to half of Nagato’s chakra. Other than that, good work.

@Troyse22 - “It would need CST to disperse Waterdome”, “Kisame is more durable than Gama Trio”, “Pain has never fought as a unit”, “Preta Path cannot absorb Waterdome”, “Kisame has SM Naruto and Tsunade level of strength”, “Pain is useless in CQC” … Must I go on? Much of what you provided was falsified information and your false interpretation of how Kisame fared against V2 Bee is intertwined with the incredulity of your responses. You cannot use Kisame’s performance against V2 Bee as a means to justify how Pain would lose in CQC when Kisame held the advantage via chakra absorption. Had you presented actual, tangible evidence, I would’ve been convinced, but arguing that Pain would get raped in CQC when SM Naruto was casually dispatched by Pain and Preta Path and managed his own against SM Jiraiya/Kakashi (as Death iterated) made this an incredulous argument to say the least.

Also:



			
				Troyse22 said:
			
		

> I said JJ Mads was above Kisame in reactions based on Portrayal
> 
> 
> *Whereas Kisame is above JJ mads in reactions based on feats*
> ...





I think I made my point.


*Persuasiveness* -

@The Death & The Strawberry - S (90/125)

@Troyse22 - C+ (52.5/125)

I’ll make this brief cuz I gtg to bed, but Death thoroughly explained how Pain was going to defeat Kisame while Troyse22 did nothing, but present a narrative as his introduction and continued to gloss over the audacious claims that he did make instead of substantiating them with concrete evidence.

I’ll edit this post later to provide a more substantial response for the “Persuasiveness”, but overall, The Death won with 90/125 points compared to Troyse22’s 52.5/125 points.

Reactions: Like 5 | Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Feb 7, 2017)

INB4 
 Buut Uchiha you-your so bias
Bu-But Uchiha you didn't read my arguments properly

Bu-But Uchiha every thing I said was factual

Nice job @UchihaX28 , though expect a storm of shit from you know who

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 7, 2017)

First debate to have a winner after TBCA was introduced 

Congrats @The Death & The Strawberry

Reactions: Like 2 | Friendly 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 7, 2017)

What a shocking turn of events 

I didn't see it coming that the judges would vote against me 

"Factual A+"

"All 6 paths immediately blitz Kisame"

/cringe

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Android (Feb 7, 2017)

My sides   
Congrats @The Death & The Strawberry

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jikaishin (Feb 7, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> What a shocking turn of events
> 
> I didn't see it coming that the judges would vote against me
> 
> ...



You lost all credibility with me when you said JJ mads had inferior reaction than Kisame, perharps you were joking ?

This level of Wank is almost Itachi level ( if you had said > Kaguya, you would have been Itachi level )


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## Serene Grace (Feb 7, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> What a shocking turn of events
> 
> I didn't see it coming that the judges would vote against me
> 
> ...


Don't be a poor sport about it, just expect your loss and try again with another pein vs kisame thread. You did give me a good debate though, and I'd like to thank you for that. I hope we could put this debate behind us and be cool. If you aren't still ignoring me, I'd like to try an onoki vs Kisame, or Muu vs Kisame, if you're interested hit me up

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Troyse22 (Feb 7, 2017)

Jikaishin said:


> You lost all credibility with me when you said JJ mads had inferior reaction than Kisame, perharps you were joking ?
> 
> This level of Wank is almost Itachi level ( if you had said > Kaguya, you would have been Itachi level )



Never said JJ Mads' reactions were inferior, I said Kisame's reactions were better based on feats, there's quite a difference.

Had Madara gotten more panel time (he should have been the final villain, Kaguya was stupid and boring as fuck) i'm sure we would've seen him reacting to Ameno and Rikudo Naruto casually.

Hence why I say Portrayal puts Mads far above Kisame by an immeasurable margin. 

I understand the confusion though, I didn't elaborate.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Don't be a poor sport about it, just expect your loss and try again with another pein vs kisame thread. You did give me a good debate though, and I'd like to thank you for that. I hope we could put this debate behind us and be cool. If you aren't still ignoring me, I'd like to try an onoki vs Kisame, or Muu vs Kisame, if you're interested hit me up



Hardly a loss when 2 judges let things like "the 6 paths all immediately blitzing Kisame" slide, a statement not supported by the manga whatsoever.

Yet I say Kisame has Tsunade/SM Naruto levels, a fact that's supported by multiple scans is totally non factual.

Frankly, I don't think Veracity and Uchiha came in this with bias against me, but they definitely didn't want to give Kisame the win vs 6POP. They pointed out every flaw in my argument, but they didn't go after you for the 6 paths blitzing Kisame garbage. They wanted Pain to win this battle no doubt, I don't accept these results, their opinions do not change mine. 

Can also think of quite a few times you didn't provide scans, but they didn't target you for it for example.

I didn't come in this expecting to win, don't get me wrong, but the quality of 2 of the 3 judges' analysis' is very poor to say the least. I hope they do much, much better next time they judge.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Parallaxis (Feb 7, 2017)

professor83 said:


> First debate to have a winner after TBCA was introduced


yeah just realized that
seems like this is a more efficient method


Troyse22 said:


> and Rikudo Naruto casually.


He already reacted to spsm naruto in canon


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## Android (Feb 7, 2017)

How the fuck is Madara's feats of reacting to a RSM body flicker , Sekizu's 1st and 5th step , and Gai's Nigh guy inferior to Kisame's ??

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Parallaxis (Feb 7, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> have another one in the future,


would you be up for
Seeing how me and NoS's debate was abandoned and I have some free time I would be up for this.
- EMS Sasuke (War Arc) vs SM Kabuto

Location: Open Field
Distance: 50m
Mindset: IC
Intel: Full for Sasuke
Restrictions: PS, Tayuya Genjutsu, ET

I would like to argue for Sasuke. Mainly doing this because I want to dismantle all the kaabuto wank.

anyone else who wants to debate me on this just post on tbca


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## Serene Grace (Dec 15, 2019)

@Troyse22 the beginning of a wonderful friendship 

edit: srry about the necro, but this is just memories


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2019)

OH BOY DO I GOT THINGS TO SAY ABOUT THIS BUMPED THREAD


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## Marvel (Dec 15, 2019)

How was Pain vs Kisame ever even considered a match?


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2019)

Marvel said:


> How was Pain vs Kisame ever even considered a match?


Didnt you know that Kisame vs EMS Madara or Rinnegan Obito with 6 Immortal Perfect Jins on his side is a match?


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## Marvel (Dec 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Didnt you know that Kisame vs EMS Madara or Rinnegan Obito with 6 Immortal Perfect Jins on his side is a match?


What in the fuck


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2019)

Marvel said:


> What in the fuck





Troyse22 said:


> Izanagi ensures a victory
> 
> Short of that, no





Troyse22 said:


> Waterdome to beat the 25 Susanoo clones
> 
> Daikodan to beat Mads when he uses PS.
> 
> ...





Troyse22 said:


> Even not factoring in absorption, Kisames physical strength is gonna be doing some serious fucking damage to those legged Susanoos.





Troyse22 said:


> Kisame can take either Obito or the Bijuu, but he can't do both.



Just a few gems


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## Marvel (Dec 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Just a few gems


Wow. You got to be a special kind of delusional to be able to say shit like that.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 15, 2019)

Cherry said:


> @Troyse22 the beginning of a wonderful friendship
> 
> edit: srry about the necro, but this is just memories



Yessir haha.

Bias everywhere


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## Troyse22 (Dec 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Just a few gems



I stand by 'em all  except I think Kisame could take Obito+The Bijuu


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 15, 2019)

Troyse22 said:


> I stand by 'em all


That doesnt help


Troyse22 said:


> except I think Kisame could take Obito+The Bijuu


Neither does this


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## Troyse22 (Dec 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> That doesnt help
> 
> Neither does this



Helps what?

You think I care?

Make a thread rn about Kisame vs 25 Madara Susanoo clones and i'll come in and stomp it


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## Serene Grace (Dec 15, 2019)

Troyse22 said:


> Yessir haha.
> 
> Bias everywhere


honestly, my posts back then were pretty bad, thankfully I improved later but man.. lol


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## Troyse22 (Dec 15, 2019)

Cherry said:


> honestly, my posts back then were pretty bad, thankfully I improved later but man.. lol



Yeah this is a long time ago, we should rematch and see how much better we do


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