# Z  (Tenchi Muyo Ryo Ohki) vs Superman)Pre Crsis)



## chulance (May 12, 2009)

Rules.
1.Bloodlust on 
2. It's in the same place Z fought Tenchi


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## Knight (May 12, 2009)

what is z's feats?


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## chulance (May 12, 2009)

Z from Tenchi Muyo? Let's see I'll tell you some he's punched holes through planets easily and wiped out entire star fleets with little effort. He has light hawk wings  and is capable of various powers such as regernation, energy manipulation ect.


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## Knight (May 12, 2009)

specific? so far i found he slapped a hole in the moon


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## chulance (May 12, 2009)

Well hold on I think Z can beat Superman simply by slapping a hole into Superman


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 12, 2009)

I dunno if he would be fast enough to tag Pre Crisis Superman who is trillions of times faster than light.  Superman really wouldn't be able to do much to him though since IIRC the LHW are instant and automatic.


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## Seyta (May 12, 2009)

Hmmm... surprised Endless Mike hasn't got to this thread yet...

but Anyways, LHW should win this for Z


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## chulance (May 12, 2009)

Hmm Can't light hawk wings help him to solve most if not all problems he may have against Superman and even if he has a large speed advantage Z has LHW to block all his attacks.


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## Knight (May 12, 2009)

chulance said:


> Hmm Can't light hawk wings help him to solve most if not all problems he may have against Superman and even if he has a large speed advantage Z has LHW to block all his attacks.



even the strength to juggle planets?


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## chulance (May 12, 2009)

Yes, Z can not only juggle them but punch through them.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 12, 2009)

Phanteros said:


> even the strength to juggle planets?



Yeah they turn all attacks to 0.  I'd say it'd be a draw or a win for Z due to Superman not being able to really do anything to Z but Superman being too fast for Z to really hit.



chulance said:


> Yes, Z can not only juggle them but punch through them.



Pretty sure he used his LHW to attack, not punched through it with physical strength.  Also, Superman is strong enough to do much more than punch through it.  Hell, he accidentally wiped out a solar system with a sneeze.


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## Knight (May 12, 2009)

can i see z punching a planet


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## chulance (May 12, 2009)

Hmm I see your point LHW's turn all attacks to 0 level of damage meaning no matter what Superman can't harm Z.  Can't Z convert Light Hawk wings into weapons and use them offensively like Tenchi or not?


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## Seyta (May 12, 2009)

Phanteros said:


> even the strength to juggle planets?



Tokimi, more or less Z's "creator" said that for her to kill Z, she would need an offensive attack that would destroy the Universe along with him...

That being said... Superman's arsenal definitely won't be pulling it off.


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## chulance (May 12, 2009)

It's true Z can punch through planets I haven't memorized the exact moment I'm sure Endless Mike may have a vid. Yeah Pre Crisis Supes destroy's galaxies while  a  universe destroying attack is needed to stop Z


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## Seyta (May 12, 2009)

chulance said:


> It's true Z can punch through planets I haven't memorized the exact moment I'm sure Endless Mike may have a vid.





Phanteros said:


> can i see z punching a planet






On this thread, there is a guy named Endless Mike.

Look at his Sig.


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## chulance (May 12, 2009)

Thanks Seyta!


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## Knight (May 12, 2009)

that's a moon. superman flies through those


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## chulance (May 12, 2009)

It dosen't matter Z has punched through planets as well and can punch through Superman and the latter can't harm him.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 12, 2009)

Again, I'm pretty sure he didn't actually punch through it he used the LHW's to attack.

Anyways, like I've been saying, while Superman might not be able to harm Z Z is going to have trouble actually hitting Superman.


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## Knight (May 12, 2009)

ok i'm convinced thar z wins


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## chulance (May 12, 2009)

I'm not talking about the moon. Z can LHW offensively can't he so can't he increase his speed and  Z is massively FTL.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 12, 2009)

chulance said:


> I'm not talking about the moon. Z can LHW offensively can't he so can't he increase his speed and  Z is massively FTL.



Superman is trillions of times FTL.  He almost destroyed the universe by travelling so fast he was going to break into Heaven and the Spectre had to stop him.  Isn't the fastest thing that Z has shown is travelling to Saturn from Earth in a few seconds?  That doesn't put him anywhere close to Superman in speed.

If Z can get an attack in yeah he is going to win, but actually getting an attack in is the problem.  It's definitely either at least a draw and at most a win for Z, Superman doesn't really have a viable way of winning.


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## chulance (May 12, 2009)

It dosen't matter LHW is the ultimate defense and offense. Z can reduce all attacks to Zero and he can use LHW's for offense  he's a skiller LHW user so therefore  he should be able to use them offensively to catch up with Superman or surpass him in speed and kill him by punching various holes through him.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 12, 2009)

chulance said:


> It dosen't matter LHW is the ultimate defense and offense. Z can reduce all attacks to Zero and he can use LHW's for offense  he's a skiller LHW user so therefore  he should be able to use them offensively to catch up with Superman or surpass him in speed and kill him by punching various holes through him.



Uh, it actually does matter, Z hasn't shown being able to reach speeds anywhere near the level of Superman.  Having ultimate defense/offense means jack shit if he can't actually hit Superman with it.


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## Terminator (May 12, 2009)

I cant even comprehend that type of speed. TRILLIONS of times FTL? Why would the fuckin superman author even implement such speed? How does that help the story? A man that can travel across the universe in seconds


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 12, 2009)

Terminator said:


> I cant even comprehend that type of speed. TRILLIONS of times FTL? Why would the fuckin superman author even implement such speed? How does that help the story? A man that can travel across the universe in seconds



Eh, it was Pre Crisis, where they did things like turn him into a woman and he had Super Women's Intuition.  Lot's of stuff didn't make sense or was completely ridiculous.  One of the reasons for the first Crisis.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 12, 2009)

Maybe that's why they powered him down after the Crisis.


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## chulance (May 12, 2009)

Yeah Superman was a god and so is Z! If Z has ultimate defense/offense he can use the latter to increase speed past Superman's level deflect all his attacks and kill him


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 12, 2009)

chulance said:


> Yeah Superman was a god and so is Z! If Z has ultimate defense/offense he can use the latter to increase speed past Superman's level deflect all his attacks and kill him



Alright then, show me where Z was shown to be able to do that.


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## chulance (May 12, 2009)

Light Hawk wings allow one to reduce attacks to zero and used offensively would raise users attacks to infinite.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 12, 2009)

chulance said:


> Light Hawk wings allow one to reduce attacks to zero and used offensively would raise users attacks to infinite.



Except that's not how LHW work, when used offensively they don't give you infinite attack they give your opponent 0 defense and obliterates them completely.  I've already agreed that Superman loses if Z actually can hit him.  So again, prove that he can use the LHW to go anywhere near as fast as Supes.


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## chulance (May 12, 2009)

Where's Endless mike when you need him!


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 13, 2009)

chulance said:


> Where's Endless mike when you need him!



Here's a tip, if you need someone else to prove a point for you then you shouldn't be making that point in the first place.


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## Lina Inverse (May 13, 2009)

As others have pointed out already, this would prolly end in a tie, with Z unable to hit Supes and Super unable to hurt Z.

Although I wonder if T-Vo would work against LHW.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 13, 2009)

Testrun said:


> As others have pointed out already, this would prolly end in a tie, with Z unable to hit Supes and Super unable to hurt Z.
> 
> Although I wonder if T-Vo would work against LHW.



It's Pre Crisis Superman and AFAIK T-Vo is a Post Crisis ability.


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## Terminator (May 13, 2009)

Cant Z eventually get to him? if he destroyed the whole universe, superman would have nowhere to travel? how does that work actually? or would Z kill himself if he destroyed the universe/


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 13, 2009)

Terminator said:


> Cant Z eventually get to him? if he destroyed the whole universe, superman would have nowhere to travel? how does that work actually? or would Z kill himself if he destroyed the universe/



Z never showed the ability to destroy the universe.


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## Kage no Yume (May 13, 2009)

You know, Z does have an omnidirectional shockwave attack doesn't he?  If he uses that to throw Supes off balance for a bit, then teleports (or attacks from another dimension) and attacks using multiple angles with his LHW, he may be able to scratch Superman.  And with the LHW, all it takes is a single scratch.


It's either that or Z outlives Superman, or eventually lands a hit after fighting for however long it takes.  There's absolutely no way for Pre-crisis Superman to win this match though.  It takes a universe destroying attack just to *restrain* Z.


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## Aokiji (May 13, 2009)

Some people here have to understand what a no limits fallacy is.

Pre Crisis Supes apparetly selaed a big bang with his Heat Vision. () Also, he almost destroyed the universe by flying really fast. 

Enough power to ignore LHW, no?


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## Rice Ball (May 13, 2009)

Superman pretty much defeats Z in every aspect. As the only person to survive a OE precrisis, he'd likely be very resistant to LHW damage.


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## Hellspawn28 (May 13, 2009)

PC Superman wins this since he can speed bitz Z before he can attack him. Z might be my favorite character in Tenchi Muyo but I doubt he will win this one since PC Superman had enough power to move a line of Planets and fast enough to destroy a mutiverse.


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## Raigen (May 13, 2009)

Z is FTL. Speedblitz fails. Superman can't hurt Z, Period. LHW nullify Superman's existence. By my reckoning, Z is at least 1080x faster than the speed of light, judging by the fact he caught up with Tenchi who went from Earth to Saturn in a few seconds. Unless it's Superman Prime 1-million or has the Sword of Superman, then Supes has no chance against Z.


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## Hellspawn28 (May 13, 2009)

PC Superman almost destroy the whole mutiverse by flying across in space by looking for Supergirl IIRC. He also uses his command of super-speed to travel through the time barrier into the past.


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## Raigen (May 13, 2009)

It was the universe, not multiverse. And that image only shows him flying across time. And not even the universe, he was gonna break passed the barrier leading to Death. Spectre stopped him, told'im to knock this shit off, made Supergirl appeared and vanished. Flying ain't gonna do shit against Z. Wouldn't matter if Supes was flying 100billion times faster than Lightspeed with all his retarded strength. It'd still equal *zero* next to the LHW.


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## Aokiji (May 13, 2009)

Raigen said:


> It was the universe, not multiverse. And that image only shows him flying across time. And not even the universe, he was gonna break passed the barrier leading to Death. Spectre stopped him, told'im to knock this shit off, made Supergirl appeared and vanished. Flying ain't gonna do shit against Z. Wouldn't matter if Supes was flying 100billion times faster than Lightspeed with all his retarded strength. It'd still equal *zero* next to the LHW.



LHW don't work against people with universe destroying power. Guess what Supes was about to do.


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## Raigen (May 13, 2009)

Incorrect. It was only said that universe-busting power may be needed to kill Z, not that the LHW won't work on it. And Superman himself does not have the power to destroy the universe. He was flying through dimensional barriers, that's all. Z can reduce him to nothing with one hit from a LHW. It's an automatic defense, which means Supes can't even touch him.


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## Aokiji (May 13, 2009)

His heat vision sealed a big bang.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 13, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Z can reduce him to nothing with one hit from a LHW. It's an automatic defense, which means Supes can't even touch him.



You do realize it can only do 1 thing at a time, attack or defend, right? And the attack actually has to hit him?


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## Raigen (May 13, 2009)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> You do realize it can only do 1 thing at a time, attack or defend, right? And the attack actually has to hit him?



Only 1 LHW can do one thing at a time. Z has 5 Light Hawk Wings. He can use 1 to defend and the other 4 to do whatever else he wants.



> His heat vision sealed a big bang.



Anything he tries is reduced to zero. Period.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 13, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Only 1 LHW can do one thing at a time. Z has 5 Light Hawk Wings. He can use 1 to defend and the other 4 to do whatever else he wants.


Funny how he only ever used 1 at a time.


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## Raigen (May 13, 2009)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Funny how he only ever used 1 at a time.



He used 3 to cancel out Tenchi's Light Hawk Wings, used 1 to defend and 1 to attack. You obviously didn't pay attention.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 13, 2009)

He didn't do it all at once, it was in quick sucession.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjS0j6t6fMs[/YOUTUBE]
Dear god, do you ever pay attention?


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## Raigen (May 13, 2009)

It wouldn't matter. One is all it's gonna take to kill Superman instantly. And still, forcing your way through the hand of a Multiversal deity is still infinitely greater than what Superman did.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 13, 2009)

Cause it was clearly massively FTL right? Z can launch it all he wants, it will never hit. Honestly, I say draw.


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## Aokiji (May 13, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Anything he tries is reduced to zero. Period.



No limits fallacy.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (May 13, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> His heat vision sealed a big bang.



When did he do that?


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## Aokiji (May 13, 2009)

Charcan said:


> When did he do that?



I don't know, honestly. Ask Orion, he keeps refering to it.


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## Rice Ball (May 13, 2009)

Raigen said:


> It wouldn't matter. One is all it's gonna take to kill Superman instantly. And still, forcing your way through the hand of a Multiversal deity is still infinitely greater than what Superman did.



The Omega effect from Darkseid (a much stronger character than Z) removes the target from ever existing. Pre Crisis Darkseid didn't have the crap deflections that he has now, it always hit and always killed the target by removing it from history.

Superman was the only person to survive this, since it works in the same fashion as the LHW's, Superman has a good chance of surviving or bypassing any defence with it.

Pre Crisis Darksied had made himself dimensions, which pretty much is the same power set as the Chousin from Tenchi...

No matter how you look at it, Superman is faster, stronger, more durable, has better abilities, has beaten stronger enemy's.


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## Raigen (May 13, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> No limits fallacy.



The LHW define No Limits Fallacy.



> The Omega effect from Darkseid (a much stronger character than Z) removes the target from ever existing. Pre Crisis Darkseid didn't have the crap deflections that he has now, it always hit and always killed the target by removing it from history.



OE removes them by connecting to the Source Wall. Z's power is beyond that. It doesn't erase you from a source, it simply erases you.* Period*. Not even PC-Darkseid can compete with it. It would never hit Z for the sheer fact that it could never get passed the LHW.



> Cause it was clearly massively FTL right? Z can launch it all he wants, it will never hit. Honestly, I say draw.



Doesn't matter how much you'd like to say draw. Z can teleport, Supes can't. Z can attack from *anywhere*, Supes can't. Z is FTL, I've already proven that. Not all of his attacks are even visible. Superman has absolutely no defense against Z, whereas Z can sit there all day and not have to lift a finger because Supes can't touch him.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 13, 2009)

Rice Ball said:


> since it works in the same fashion as the LHW's, Superman has a good chance of surviving or bypassing any defence with it.



I'm not so sure you can say that... Z said Tenchi would be reborn after he killed him. LHW just reset things to 0. In some ways OE sounds better in others it doesn't. I shall rechoose my stance here to leaning torwards draw but still very uncertain.


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## Raigen (May 13, 2009)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I'm not so sure you can say that... Z said Tenchi would be reborn after he killed him. LHW just reset things to 0. In some ways OE sounds better in others it doesn't. I shall rechoose my stance here to leaning torwards draw but still very uncertain.



Z stated that the Chousin would restore Tenchi's life, but he'd not longer have the LHW. It's a power that once lost, can never be recovered. However it doesn't matter since Tenchi is the Avatar for TOAA, or as the Tenchi-verse calls it, Kami-Tenchi (effectively the same thing).


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## Aokiji (May 13, 2009)

Raigen said:


> The LHW define No Limits Fallacy.



What the hell are you blabbering about? 



Raigen said:


> OE removes them by connecting to the Source Wall. Z's power is beyond that. It doesn't erase you from a source, it simply erases you.* Period*. Not even PC-Darkseid can compete with it. It would never hit Z for the sheer fact that it could never get passed the LHW.



Current Darkseid is a multiversal being. Precrisis Darkseid is stronger. And who gives a shit whether it erases you from the source wall or not that's just technobabble. In the end both do the same. 

And proof that OE wouldn't get past LHW? 



Raigen said:


> Doesn't matter how much you'd like to say draw. Z can teleport, Supes can't.



Who gives a shit?



Raigen said:


> Superman has absolutely no defense against Z,



Wrong.



Raigen said:


> whereas Z can sit there all day and not have to lift a finger because Supes can't touch him.



He can.


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## Raigen (May 13, 2009)

No, he can't. Supes can't touch him. You could give Superman infinite strength and it wouldn't make one bit of difference at all. Infinity X Zero is still *Zero*.


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## Aokiji (May 13, 2009)

Raigen said:


> No, he can't. Supes can't touch him. You could give Superman infinite strength and it wouldn't make one bit of difference at all. Infinity X Zero is still *Zero*.



Superman has shown stuff that is strong enough to overpower the LHW.


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## Raigen (May 13, 2009)

No, he hasn't. You can't break the LHW or overpower them. The only thing that beats a LHW is another LHW. They're No Limits Fallacies. Superman has absolutely nothing that can affect them. It's that simple. You can whine all you like, it still doesn't change the simple fact that there is absolutely nothing Superman can do here. He's F^(ked in every sense of the word.


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## Kamen Rider Godzilla (May 13, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Z is FTL. Speedblitz fails. Superman can't hurt Z, Period. LHW nullify Superman's existence. By my reckoning, Z is at least 1080x faster than the speed of light, judging by the fact he caught up with Tenchi who went from Earth to Saturn in a few seconds. Unless it's Superman Prime 1-million or has the Sword of Superman, then Supes has no chance against Z.



Wow.  1080 x faster than light versus a guy who is trillions of times faster than light.  

Z can't hit Superman.  Also, I love how you say that Superman can't resist the LHW even though he resisted something that does basically the exact same thing as they do when used offensively.

So, we have Superman not being able to hurt Z and we have Z not being able to hit and possibly not being able to hurt Superman.  That makes it a tie.


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## Rice Ball (May 13, 2009)

Raigen said:


> OE removes them by connecting to the Source Wall. Z's power is beyond that. It doesn't erase you from a source, it simply erases you.* Period*. Not even PC-Darkseid can compete with it.



You realise thats pretty much the same thing, the only difference is the source wall is the name of what governed existance in the DCU.




> It would never hit Z for the sheer fact that it could never get passed the LHW.



Prove it, show me the most powerful attack that the lighthawk wings blocked.


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## Raigen (May 13, 2009)

Snake Plissken said:


> Wow.  1080 x faster than light versus a guy who is trillions of times faster than light.
> 
> Z can't hit Superman.  Also, I love how you say that Superman can't resist the LHW even though he resisted something that does basically the exact same thing as they do when used offensively.
> 
> So, we have Superman not being able to hurt Z and we have Z not being able to hit and possibly not being able to hurt Superman.  That makes it a tie.



Yes, Superman took PC-Darkseid's OE and didn't vanish. You know why? Plot-Protection. DC made Superman a "Necessary figure in the universe" which makes him impervious to the OE's erasure. This isn't DC and Z's power isn't so lame that being 'important' is gonna protect Superman from being killed by it.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 13, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Z stated that the Chousin would restore Tenchi's life, but he'd not longer have the LHW. It's a power that once lost, can never be recovered.



Point is he wasn't erased from history.



> You can't break the LHW or overpower them. The only thing that beats a LHW is another LHW.


Kami Tenchi, Counteractor, and The Chousin disagree. It's not impossible, it's just really fucking hard.


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## Rice Ball (May 13, 2009)

You realise Tenchi tanked the LHW's and survived for the same reason...


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## Raigen (May 13, 2009)

Rice Ball said:


> You realise Tenchi tanked the LHW's and survived for the same reason...



No. The reason is different; Tenchi is the effing Avatar of the *ONE ABOVE ALL*, aka *Kami-Tenchi*. Superman is not the Avatar of anything. He's just wanked by the writers and nothing more. The Power of the LHW is the Power of *The Almighty* (Kami-Tenchi). Trying to kill Kami-Tenchi, or his Avatar, with what is effectively his own power, is just retarded. Lina Inverse said it best; "It's like saying 'Hey you! Can you help me kill you?'"



> Point is he wasn't erased from history.



You have no point. The Chousin are Multiversal. They can do whatever the hell they want.



> Kami Tenchi, Counteractor, and The Chousin disagree. It's not impossible, it's just really fucking hard.



Kami-Tenchi is *THE ONE ABOVE ALL*. He created the Chousin and the LHW. The Counteractor was created as a byproduct of the Chousin's experiments which can specifically hinder the Chousin's power. The Chousin can also create as many LHW as they want, but don't use more than 10 in any one dimension because it'd shatter the universe. Z was more like Tokimi's Avatar, so she could destroy him easy. He only stated that doing so would destroy the Universe as a result, and at the time with Tenchi's LHW down, Tenchi would die and Z would still get what he wanted.


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## Aokiji (May 13, 2009)

Raigen said:


> No, he hasn't. You can't break the LHW or overpower them. The only thing that beats a LHW is another LHW. *They're No Limits Fallacies.* Superman has absolutely nothing that can affect them. It's that simple. You can whine all you like, it still doesn't change the simple fact that there is absolutely nothing Superman can do here. He's F^(ked in every sense of the word.



Do you even know what the fuck you are talking about? 

You just admitted that your own argument is based on a fallacy.

No ability is limitless, it's just that the limits are ridiculously high.



Raigen said:


> Yes, Superman took PC-Darkseid's OE and didn't vanish. You know why? *Plot-Protection. *DC made Superman a "Necessary figure in the universe" which makes him impervious to the OE's erasure. This isn't DC and Z's power isn't so lame that being 'important' is gonna protect Superman from being killed by it.



Suspense of Disbelief. Or in other words, using outside of universe terms/breaking the 4th wall while discussing fiction is a noobinsh thing. Might as well say "Z wins cuz I can write his fight against Supes and make him win"



Raigen said:


> No. The reason is different; Tenchi is the effing Avatar of the *ONE ABOVE ALL*, aka *Kami-Tenchi*. Superman is not the Avatar of anything. He's just wanked by the writers and nothing more. The Power of the LHW is the Power of *The Almighty* (Kami-Tenchi). Trying to kill Kami-Tenchi, or his Avatar, with what is effectively his own power, is just retarded. Lina Inverse said it best; "It's like saying 'Hey you! Can you help me kill you?'"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So wait, Z can beat anyone but omnipotents right?


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## Rice Ball (May 13, 2009)

Phenom redux.


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## Aokiji (May 13, 2009)

You're flamebaiting/spamming Ricey. I might have to report you.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 13, 2009)

Raigen said:


> You have no point. The Chousin are Multiversal. They can do whatever the hell they want.


I'll humor you, this time... You do know what erasing from history means right? If not I'll explain. It means you are completely removed, memories and all, from what has happened. You are gone, no one remembers you ever existed. Not what happened!





> Kami-Tenchi is *THE ONE ABOVE ALL*.


Yes I know he is omnipotent...



> He created the Chousin and the LHW.


Probably, but never clarified.



> The Counteractor was created as a byproduct of the Chousin's experiments which can specifically hinder the Chousin's power.


Cool.



> The Chousin can also create as many LHW as they want


I know...



> but don't use more than 10 in any one dimension because it'd shatter the universe


Nice!

None of this changes the fact that all of them can overpower LHWs without LHWs which you said (guess what) no one can do. This is why it is a no limits fallacy. Get it?



> Z was more like Tokimi's Avatar, so she could destroy him easy. He only stated that doing so would destroy the Universe as a result, and at the time with Tenchi's LHW down, Tenchi would die and Z would still get what he wanted.


Um ok, this has what to do with what I said?


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## Rice Ball (May 13, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> You're flamebaiting/spamming Ricey. I might have to report you.



Only if you consider that a flame 

Okay i guess it was, i'm sorry Aokiji


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## Hellspawn28 (May 13, 2009)

> So wait, Z can beat anyone but omnipotents right?



I believe so from what I seen from this post. I think people overrated Z a bit much. Sure he is stronger then anyone in DBZGT but he has no chance against any of the higher tiers from Marvel, Image and DC would beat him. I'm a big fan of Tenchi Muyo but Z is no god or anything.


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## Knight (May 13, 2009)

people do overrate z a lot


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## SmashSk8er (May 13, 2009)

Draw. 
I think.


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## Comic Book Guy (May 13, 2009)

Silver Age, Earth-1 Superman?

He'd probably take it at his prime, due to him literally having and fucking riding PLOT by his fucking side until DC got more serious with the upcoming COIE.

Barring that. . . don't properly know much about Z.


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## Hellspawn28 (May 13, 2009)

Phanteros said:


> people do overrate z a lot



He is very fast (He travel to Earth to Venus (I think) in a matter of seconds) and he has a shockwave attack that can destroy planets and fleets and remove matter from existence. He would solo Dragon Ball but he would lose to people like Rune Thor and Full Power Galactus. Malebogia should beat him with a good amount of Prep.


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## Herekic (May 14, 2009)

> He is very fast (He travel to Earth to Venus (I think) in a matter of seconds) and he has a shockwave attack that can destroy planets and fleets and remove matter from existence. He would solo Dragon Ball but he would lose to people like Rune Thor and Full Power Galactus. Malebogia should beat him with a good amount of Prep.




it was stated that to kill a WEAKENED Z(missing some of his lighthawk wings) you need nothing less then an attack that would destory the entire universe.


full power Z, even that may not cut it.


as far as I know, none of those guys are above galaxy buster.

any attack you use on him is negated, only way around it is to produce more power then his wings, but as said, even with less wings then usual, it takes a universe busting attack to overcome them. 


people don't overate Z, he's just really fucking broken.


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## Hellspawn28 (May 14, 2009)

He is a broken character and the Light Hawk Wings are pretty broken also. From what I remember from the OVA that Tenchi beat Z when he remove his light hawk wings (I might be wrong).


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## Kage no Yume (May 14, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> Hyperbole.



Considering that Tokimi agreed with Z, and then had to use an alternate route to protect Tenchi (she was going to move Tenchi instead of stop Z), *and* considering that after two of the Choushin clashed a mere flinch from either of them could have caused the accidental shattering of the universe, no, it was not hyperbole.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 14, 2009)

Hellspawn28 said:


> From what I remember from the OVA that Tenchi beat Z when he remove his light hawk wings (I might be wrong).



He still had 1. Wouldn't have mattered anyways... No way he was stopping Kami Tenchi, even with all 5.




Aokiji said:


> Hyperbole.


Not really. There is a reason she didn't try.


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## Herekic (May 14, 2009)

> Hyperbole.




not really, as said above the chousin are extremly powerful, enough so to indeed destory the entire universe.


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## Spectre (May 14, 2009)

Didn't we confirm Z>Dark Schneider>Pre Crisis Superman?


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## Kusogitsune (May 14, 2009)

Pre-Crisis Supes beats Z with his super-maths.


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## Knight (May 14, 2009)

superman is infinite speed


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## Endless Mike (May 15, 2009)

*reads through thread*

ughh.... why are the idiots arguing my side....

Anyway, Z wins.

Allow me to address the individual arguments:

1. Superman almost destroyed the multiverse/universe by flying too fast.

Wrong. Anyone who claims this has obviously never read that comic. He was stopped because the Spectre said he was going to fly into heaven and see things that mortals/lesser beings were not allowed to see. Supergirl (who he was chasing after) had already passed there, and didn't destroy anything. The reason the Spectre let her through was because she was unconscious and therefore she couldn't see anything.

2. Superman's heat vision sealed a big bang.

Again, wrong. Superman and Power Girl working together used their heat vision to seal a hole between dimensions where Maaldor's power exploding created a big bang and a new universe. He didn't do anything to the Big Bang itself, he just closed up the dimension between it and the universe they were in to prevent the energy from seeping through. I should mention that Superman and Power Girl together were no match for Maaldor, whose total power was enough to create a universe. Z has at least that much power going by powerscaling.

3. T-Vo

As previously mentioned, Supes didn't have this Pre-Crisis

4. Superman survived the OE Pre-Crisis

I've read almost all of the Pre-Crisis Darkseid stories, and I don't remember this. Post one scan of this happening (when Darkseid was actually trying to kill him). The main reason Pre-Crisis Darkseid was usually considered to be more powerful than his Post-Crisis self was the fact that he slapped Superman around and treated him like a bug instead of losing him.

5. FC Darkseid was multiversal and PC Darkseid was stronger.

Wrong. It was stated that Final Crisis Darkseid was his true form and all of his previous appearances (including Pre-Crisis, COIE didn't canonically effect the New Gods) were just weaker incarnations.

6. Supes can speedblitz Z before Z gets his LHWs up

As mentioned previously, Z and Tenchi's LHWs are automatic and activate exactly when they are needed. Only the LHWs on Jurai ships need to be manually raised (and even so there is a weaker "sub-LHW" that is almost always up)



Kage no Yume said:


> Considering that Tokimi agreed with Z, and then had to use an alternate route to protect Tenchi (she was going to move Tenchi instead of stop Z), *and* considering that after two of the Choushin clashed a mere flinch from either of them could have caused the accidental shattering of the universe, no, it was not hyperbole.



In addition, it was stated Fuku (who was basically a weaker version of Ryo-Ohki) had as much power as a small universe, and Z easily stopped Ryo-Ohki's attack with 1 hand and sliced her in half. Also Zinv merged two universes and survived it using only 2 LHWs.

As for the actual fight, if we compare stats the only advantage PC Supes has is speed.

They both can travel through time at will and access alternate universes/dimensions, but Z also has matter manipulation, which has proven effective against PC Kryptonians. Teleportation and time travel would at least be enough to land a hit.


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## randomsurfer (May 15, 2009)

What is up with travelling faster than the speed of light?
Even if this is possible in the DC comic world, it might not be possible in the tenchi muyo world so could depend on which world the battle takes place.


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## Hellspawn28 (May 15, 2009)

> Because the Spectre said he was going to fly into heaven and see things that mortals/lesser beings were not allowed to see.



I forgot about that moment. I recall that Superman at his full power hit him in the face and was not even hurt at all. Maybe Superboy Prime would be a better choice against Z since Superboy got hit by a second big bang and was not even hurt.


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## Endless Mike (May 15, 2009)

randomsurfer said:


> What is up with travelling faster than the speed of light?
> Even if this is possible in the DC comic world, it might not be possible in the tenchi muyo world so could depend on which world the battle takes place.



Um... FTL travel is common in Tenchiverse. Even if it wasn't it would still be allowed since both sides get all of their powers in a match unless the OP specifies otherwise.



Hellspawn28 said:


> I forgot about that moment. I recall that Superman at his full power hit him in the face and was not even hurt at all. Maybe Superboy Prime would be a better choice against Z since Superboy got hit by a second big bang and was not even hurt.



Yeah but that was with the Guardian amp


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## Hellspawn28 (May 16, 2009)

> And that image only shows him flying across time.



PC Superman was so fast that he can actually time-travel. In fact, he broke the time-barriers.



I also remember that he can vibrates his body at atomic level and becomes practically intangible which will make him hard to kill (I might be wrong, be free to correct me). I change my mind on this fight and it depends who get hit first. I'll abstain for now.


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## chulance (May 24, 2009)

Still FTL is common in the Tenchi-verse and Z can achieve it instantly.  Being intangible is one of his powers but how can Superman hurt Z when LHW reduce all attacks to zero.


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## DeusExMachina (May 28, 2009)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Silver Age, Earth-1 Superman?
> 
> He'd probably take it at his prime, due to him literally having and fucking riding PLOT by his fucking side until DC got more serious with the upcoming COIE.



Yep, that's pretty much the whole reason why I think Pre-Crisis Supes win.


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## Endless Mike (May 28, 2009)

But he still lost all the time.

I can name tons of people who beat him:

- Darkseid
- Mongul
- Zha-Vam
- Ultraa
- Brainiac
- Spectre
- Vartox
- Maaldor
- Validus (when he was Superboy with the Legion)
- Omega (same)
- Mon-El

All these people beat him in a straight-up fight, sometimes more than once. And that's just off the top of my head. Sure, some of them could beat Z too but some of them couldn't.


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## Comic Book Guy (May 28, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> 1. Superman almost destroyed the multiverse/universe by flying too fast.
> 
> Wrong. Anyone who claims this has obviously never read that comic. He was stopped because the Spectre said he was going to fly into heaven and see things that mortals/lesser beings were not allowed to see. Supergirl (who he was chasing after) had already passed there, and didn't destroy anything. The reason the Spectre let her through was because she was unconscious and therefore she couldn't see anything.



Actually:



The "civilizations beyond numbering" was translated -- or extrapolated or even exaggerated to -- the multiverse (given it was prior to COIE).


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## ShadowRaze (May 28, 2009)

what's IIRC?


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## DeusExMachina (May 28, 2009)

It stands for If I remember correctly in this context.


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## Endless Mike (May 30, 2009)

It probably refers to what the Spectre would have to do if he saw Heaven.


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## Comic Book Guy (May 30, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> It probably refers to *what the Spectre would have to do* if he saw Heaven.



I read it as a _consequence _of Superman breaking through into Heaven and/or seeing it with mortal eyes.


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## Endless Mike (May 30, 2009)

Yeah, meaning the Presence would get pissed off and send the Spectre out to ruin shit


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## Seyta (May 30, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> Hyperbole.



Stated by the deity-esque multi-cosmic entity who was responsible for Z's creation, was aware of the extent of his power, and was more than capable of performing the task that would have killed him?

Doesn't sound like hyperbole to me...


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## Endless Mike (May 30, 2009)

And even if that statement referred to something Superman would directly cause, it still doesn't really mean much. It doesn't specify the size, tech level, or population distribution of these civilizations, or how they would be in danger, and Superman wouldn't even be able to do that in a neutral universe since that Heaven barrier only exists in the DC multiverse, and if he did he would really just be running away.


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## Comic Book Guy (May 31, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> And even if that statement referred to something Superman would directly cause, it still doesn't really mean much. It doesn't specify the size, tech level, or population distribution of these civilizations, or how they would be in danger, and Superman wouldn't even be able to do that in a neutral universe since that Heaven barrier only exists in the DC multiverse, and if he did he would really just be running away.



If anything, the feat just demonstrates his speed -- being able to escape the bonds of time/space.


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## Rice Ball (May 31, 2009)

So how do you suggest Z wins this if Superman has far superior physical abilitys (speed, Strength and Durability) as well as a far greater power set?


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## Bender (May 31, 2009)

Can't Superman seal Z on the source wall like he did to Darkseid?


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## Comic Book Guy (May 31, 2009)

Rice Ball said:


> So how do you suggest Z wins this if Superman has far superior physical abilitys (speed, Strength and Durability) as well as a far greater power set?



Wouldn't the LHW hax past it?



Blaze of Glory said:


> Can't Superman seal Z on the source wall like he did to Darkseid?



If it took place in the DCU. Neutral battlefield here.

He could possibly BFR Z. Keyword being could.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 1, 2009)

Z can cross universes as well....

As for strength, Z blocked Ryo-Ohki's attack with one hand, and Fuku (who was basically a weaker version of Ryo-Ohki) was stated by scientists to have as much power as a small universe.

Durability?

Fuhgeddaboutit. Z is far higher in that department.

Speed is the only advantage Supes has here.


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## Rice Ball (Jun 1, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> As for strength, Z blocked Ryo-Ohki's attack with one hand, and Fuku (who was basically a weaker version of Ryo-Ohki) was stated by scientists to have as much power as a small universe.



Are you suggesting that was a universe busting attack? 
Potential and reality are very different, Ryo-Ohki didn't display that type of power, i would be happy if you could point out when this happened... 



Endless Mike said:


> Durability?
> 
> Fuhgeddaboutit. Z is far higher in that department.



Way to prove your point... Seriously what's he tanked? Do you mean when he passed through Tokimi? or when the 2 chousin nuked the universe when they hit each others hands? Its pretty clear it wasn't durability that protected him and Tenchi as they were completely uneffected.



Endless Mike said:


> Speed is the only advantage Supes has here.



Good job the ability to land and evade hits is very important.


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## Sol Bro (Jun 1, 2009)

There are so many possiblities to consider, I say draw.


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## Raigen (Jun 1, 2009)

There is no possibility for Supes to land a hit, since the LHW nullify any assault Superman can possibly conceive. Doesn't matter how fast Superman is if he can't even touch or get close to Z. Z can still just let out a wave and/or AoE attack at Superman. Remember, such things from Z are just invisible and instantaneous. Doubt Supes could dodge that and just flying circles around Z won't do anything to him. Superman can do *nothing* to Z, while Z can take all the time in the universe to kill Superman.


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## Shock Therapy (Jun 1, 2009)

I saw draw unless someone can find a scan of PC Supes destryoing a universe


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## Endless Mike (Jun 1, 2009)

Rice Ball said:


> Are you suggesting that was a universe busting attack?
> Potential and reality are very different, Ryo-Ohki didn't display that type of power, i would be happy if you could point out when this happened...



The point was that she had that much power behind her. She absolutely shredded the Chobimaru effortlessly in the previous episode 



> Way to prove your point... Seriously what's he tanked? Do you mean when he passed through Tokimi? or when the 2 chousin nuked the universe when they hit each others hands? Its pretty clear it wasn't durability that protected him and Tenchi as they were completely uneffected.



Tenchi was enveloped by the Counter-Actor and Z had his LHWs. Also Tokimi would have to have destroyed the universe to kill him, and that was with 2 LHWs. He had 5 originally. Also Zinv with 2 LHWs managed to rebuild himself after universal destruction



> Good job the ability to land and evade hits is very important.



Except Z has omnidirectional attacks, dimension/time travel, telekinesis, teleportation, a bunch of tricks that would allow him to land a hit. And one hit is all he needs, really.


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## Trogdor the Burninator (Jun 2, 2009)

Superman was moving so fast that it was ripping reality apart. What happens if reality collapses on Z?


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## Rice Ball (Jun 2, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> The point was that she had that much power behind her. She absolutely shredded the Chobimaru effortlessly in the previous episode



It was a spinning melee attack, it wasn't impressive at all, certainly wasn't a universe busting... 



Endless Mike said:


> Tenchi was enveloped by the Counter-Actor and Z had his LHWs. Also Tokimi would have to have destroyed the universe to kill him, and that was with 2 LHWs. He had 5 originally. Also Zinv with 2 LHWs managed to rebuild himself after universal destruction



It was a plot shield (literally) Z managed to make himself immune to himself Tokimi's wrath via prep time and the Counter-Actor. In a standard fight, he doesn't have access to protect himself like this, so i don't see where your getting durability greater than superman from, or greater than supermans attacks.
Z unlike Tenchi, was unable to do matieral conversion with the lighthawk wings, meaning he couldn't create a suit of armour to protect himself.



Endless Mike said:


> Except Z has omnidirectional attacks, dimension/time travel, telekinesis, teleportation, a bunch of tricks that would allow him to land a hit. And one hit is all he needs, really.



Omnidirectional?
Rewatch, his attack with a circular AoE that projected outwards, it wasn't Omnidirectional, also the attack speed was great, but not faster than Pre crisis Superman, simplely moving above it would suffice.


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## Raigen (Jun 2, 2009)

Z can make it omnidirectional. Hell he annihilated hundreds of thousands of GXP ships instantly with a wave attack. It's not a challenge for him. All you're doing is nitpicking. There's no hope for Supes in this. There never was. And what's reality to people who can destroy/create the universe on a whim? Superman has to be using speed in order to create an effect, he doesn't actually control reality in any way. And in case you forgot, Supes breaching the "Golden Veil" means Superman dies while doing so. Z doesn't have to do anything then.


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## Trogdor the Burninator (Jun 2, 2009)

Seyta said:


> Stated by the deity-esque multi-cosmic entity who was responsible for Z's creation, was aware of the extent of his power, and was more than capable of performing the task that would have killed him?
> 
> Doesn't sound like hyperbole to me...



The *narrator* said Broly was a GB and that doesn't count, sorry .


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## Endless Mike (Jun 4, 2009)

Trogdor the Burninator said:


> Superman was moving so fast that it was ripping reality apart. What happens if reality collapses on Z?



No he wasn't. I already covered this.



Rice Ball said:


> It was a spinning melee attack, it wasn't impressive at all, certainly wasn't a universe busting...



It had that amount of potential energy behind it. Why wouldn't Ryoko use all of Ryo-Ohki's energy?



> It was a plot shield (literally) Z managed to make himself immune to himself Tokimi's wrath via prep time and the Counter-Actor. In a standard fight, he doesn't have access to protect himself like this, so i don't see where your getting durability greater than superman from, or greater than supermans attacks.
> Z unlike Tenchi, was unable to do matieral conversion with the lighthawk wings, meaning he couldn't create a suit of armour to protect himself.



Do you have any idea how LHWs work? They convert all attacks into harmless energy. They negated the gravity of a black hole, and any type of attack launched at them is useless unless it's backed by high cosmic power.



> Omnidirectional?
> Rewatch, his attack with a circular AoE that projected outwards, it wasn't Omnidirectional



Yet enemies that weren't directly touched by it still exploded.... The visible part of the attack wasn't the only part.



> also the attack speed was great, but not faster than Pre crisis Superman, simplely moving above it would suffice.



Wrong



Trogdor the Burninator said:


> The *narrator* said Broly was a GB and that doesn't count,.



Who the fuck is even talking about Brolly here? Not to mention that he is an entirely non-canon character in the first place.


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