# G4 Luffy vs Zoro



## Finalbeta (Jul 25, 2016)

Conditions: They both start fresh. Luffy starts in G4.
Thread is about: Can Luffy beat Zoro in just one G4 round? You can only use current post TS showings for both

Location: Dressrosa


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## giantbiceps (Jul 25, 2016)

Luffy needs 30 seconds.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## barreltheif (Jul 25, 2016)

Luffy wins, but he'll need some of his stronger G4 attacks. It's usually possible to beat someone a little weaker than you pretty quickly if you go all out immediately against them.


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## Monstar6 (Jul 25, 2016)

By current showing, i think he can beat him in one round.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dellinger (Jul 25, 2016)

G4 would absolutely wreck the shit out of Zoro in one round.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Raiden34 (Jul 25, 2016)

giantbiceps said:


> Luffy needs 30 seconds.


Luffy needs only two punches, probably speedblitzes.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Nekochako (Jul 25, 2016)

Luffy wins low diff. Zoro could challenge him with a upgraded ashura but going by current feats, Zoro does not stand a chance.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Dunno (Jul 25, 2016)

Could go either way. Zoro has the feats but Luffy has the Shounen logic.


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## Raiden34 (Jul 25, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Could go either way. *Zoro has the feats* .


What kind of feats are you talking about ?


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## Shanks (Jul 25, 2016)

The title should really be 'How many Zoro does it take?'

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Finalbeta (Jul 25, 2016)

Josh said:


> The title should really be 'How many Zoro does it take?'


More than Law as he's more durable but Law can avoid the most


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 25, 2016)

Zoro survives the round with 1 hp left

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## MYJC (Jul 26, 2016)

Zoro gets knocked the fuck out with plenty of time to spare. 

Doffy without Awakening wouldn't even last a round against G4 and Doffy w/o Awakening>>Zoro. 


Maybe Zoro has a Trump card we haven't seen but based on current feats he gets low-diffed.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## barreltheif (Jul 26, 2016)

MYJC said:


> Zoro gets knocked the fuck out with plenty of time to spare.
> Doffy without Awakening wouldn't even last a round against G4 and Doffy w/o Awakening>>Zoro.
> Maybe Zoro has a Trump card we haven't seen but based on current feats he gets low-diffed.



Luffy's using G4 here, so it's automatically very high or extreme diff. But you're right that Luffy will win quickly.


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## Shanks (Jul 26, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Luffy's using G4 here, so it's automatically very high or extreme diff. But you're right that Luffy will win quickly.


It is only very high dif if he takes the entire 10mins and cannot move afterwards.

If it takes Luffy under a min, he can revert back to normal just fine.


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## Beast (Jul 26, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Luffy's using G4 here, so it's automatically very high or extreme diff. But you're right that Luffy will win quickly.


Lol so even if it's a 1HKO its extreme  diff?... bruh. 

Anyway, Zoro is gonna need some milk after this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## barreltheif (Jul 26, 2016)

Josh said:


> It is only very high dif if he takes the entire 10mins and cannot move afterwards. If it takes Luffy under a min, he can revert back to normal just fine.



10 minutes was the time after G4 before Luffy can move, not the time during it.
I have no idea where you got any of this information.



MasterBeast said:


> Lol so even if it's a 1HKO its extreme  diff?... bruh.
> Anyway, Zoro is gonna need some milk after this.



If that one hit is stronger than hundreds of G2 punches and takes hundred of times the effort, then yes. If Luffy has to use G4, but then wins in one or two hits, then it's probably very high diff. If Zoro can put up resistance and requires several hits, then it's extreme.
You may have missed this, but One Piece is full of high+ diff fights that end with one of the characters one shotting the other with one of their strongest moves.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Beast (Jul 26, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> If that one hit is stronger than hundreds of G2 punches and takes hundred of times the effort, then yes. If Luffy has to use G4, but then wins in one or two hits, then it's probably very high diff. If Zoro can put up resistance and requires several hits, then it's extreme.
> You may have missed this, but One Piece is full of high+ diff fights that end with one of the characters one shotting the other with one of their strongest moves.


Obviously you didn't read the OP.. He starts in G4 and only fights for the first round of it, you also didn't understand my post... is a 1HKO also considered high diff? (Took away the G4 and zoro as it might cloud your judgement)
Doesn't matter what you diff you think it takes for Luffy to go G4. .. here he starts and stays in G4. He doesn't fight Zoro with G2/3, just G4 and only for the first round or Zoro wins for surviving it.


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## barreltheif (Jul 26, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Obviously you didn't read the OP.. He starts in G4 and only fights for the first round of it, you also didn't understand my post... is a 1HKO also considered high diff? (Took away the G4 and zoro as it might cloud your judgement)
> Doesn't matter what you diff you think it takes for Luffy to go G4. .. here he starts and stays in G4. He doesn't fight Zoro with G2/3, just G4 and only for the first round or Zoro wins for surviving it.



I have no idea what you're talking about. If Luffy uses G4, then it's automatically very high diff. Just like if preskip Zoro uses Asura against an opponent, then it's automatically high diff. Asura takes a lot of effort and exhausts Zoro. G4 takes more effort and exhausts Luffy more.

If you OHKO someone using an ability that takes a ton of effort and leaves you completely exhausted and unable to move, then yes, it's high diff.


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## Beast (Jul 26, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about. If Luffy uses G4, then it's automatically very high diff. Just like if preskip Zoro uses Asura against an opponent, then it's automatically high diff. Asura takes a lot of effort and exhausts Zoro. G4 takes more effort and exhausts Luffy more.
> 
> If you OHKO someone using an ability that takes a ton of effort and leaves you completely exhausted and unable to move, then yes, it's high diff.


It will makes things easier to understand if you read first. One attack in G4 isn't going to stress luffy in anyway. Going g4 doesn't make the battle high diff, that's something you've come up all on your own dude.

Read the OP at least.


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## barreltheif (Jul 26, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> It will makes things easier to understand if you read first. One attack in G4 isn't going to stress luffy in anyway. Going g4 doesn't make the battle high diff, that's something you've come up all on your own dude. Read the OP at least.



Simply using G4 exhausts Luffy. He can't move for 10 minutes afterward. Using an ability that greatly exhausts you and leaves you unable to move makes the fight high diff.
Again, I have no idea what the OP has to do with this. Were you thinking that the OP was implying that G4 won't exhaust Luffy here or something?


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## Beast (Jul 26, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Simply using G4 exhausts Luffy. He can't move for 10 minutes afterward. Using an ability that greatly exhausts you and leaves you unable to move makes the fight high diff.
> Again, I have no idea what the OP has to do with this. Were you thinking that the OP was implying that G4 won't exhaust Luffy here or something?


No...
Luffy will be exhuested if he fights the whole time of G4 is activated. If he ones shots... There will no down time, it'a as simple as that. Running and literally any physical activity will tire out Luffy doesn't make it high diff just because he is tired at the end.

In the OP luffy starts in G4, he is fresh... at the end of the battle given the current feats Zoro is gonna take 4-5 hits at best but won't be able to block or attack before he's demise. Luffy after zoro has been taken down won't be on floor left for dead because guess what? He didn't fully use the time limit of G4.. taking the high diff idea out of it.

Zoro at best is going to last 5 mins making a low- mid diff as he isn't going to achieve nothing other eat attacks till he passes out.


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## Dunno (Jul 26, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> What kind of feats are you talking about ?



The feat of not failing to beat a severely wounded Doflamingo while going all out. The feat not to struggle a lot against Chinjao in a serious fight. The feat of not having used his strongest move yet but still having used a move with similar destructive capabilites as Luffy strongest one. If a severely injured Doflamingo could survive for the duration of G4, then Zoro can as well. As I previously stated, Luffy has a chance to win because he's the main character and is "supposed" to be stronger than his crew, and not because of anything he's shown.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 26, 2016)

MYJC said:


> Zoro gets knocked the fuck out with plenty of time to spare.
> 
> Doffy without Awakening wouldn't even last a round against G4 and Doffy w/o Awakening>>Zoro.
> 
> ...


 Zoro has this: 

Zoro and Luffy have always been close in strength if not equal:

Zoro vs Luffy in Whiskey Peak, then Zoro's Alabasta arc growth, the databook (Oda writes those) that came out during post Enies Lobby stating Zoro and Luffy have similar battle power, Zoro's new sword in Thriller Bark to combat whatever gap there was with G3 and Ashura, Zoro's performance vs Kuma, Zoro surviving Luffy's pain while Luffy was knocked out by it.

Post skip there's no denying how good Zoro's looking. He did better a lot better vs Monet and Hyouzou then G2 Luffy did (don't remember if Luffy used G2 vs the PH dragon but if he did, add that to the list lol), has had no major (and very little minor damage) done to him, hasn't shown his new techniques and Ashura, pushed back Fujitora several meters with his air slash and prompting Fujitora to call it "brutal" etc.


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## Raiden34 (Jul 26, 2016)

Dunno said:


> The feat of not failing to beat a severely wounded Doflamingo while going all out. The feat not to struggle a lot against Chinjao in a serious fight. The feat of not having used his strongest move yet but still having used a move with similar destructive capabilites as Luffy strongest one. If a severely injured Doflamingo could survive for the duration of G4, *then Zoro can as well*. As I previously stated, Luffy has a chance to win because he's the main character and is "supposed" to be stronger than his crew, and not because of anything he's shown.


This is so stupid that I don't even know what to say....

First off, these are not feats for Zoron, and secondly ;

And what makes you think that Zoro would do these better ? What kind of sense do you have ?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Raiden34 (Jul 26, 2016)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Zoro has this:
> 
> Zoro and Luffy have always been close in strength if not equal:
> 
> ...


This is stupid as well.

Zoro surviving against Kuma a little doesn't mean anything, did you see Luffy stomped by Kuma or something ? What kind of stupid logic is this ?

Lucci was obviously superior to both Zoro and Sanji (like twice of their douriki number), and Zoro even get stomped by Lucci in Water7, and in Enies Loby Luffy manages to beat him.

Luffy defeated FUCKING CROCODILE, while Zoro hardly beats his side-kick Daz Bones.

Luffy defeated Gecko Moria, another fucking Shichibukai, while Zoro beats no one significant (only Brook's shadow in Ryuma's corpse)

After TS,
Luffy even scarred Fujitora's left cheek even without G4, while Zoro did NOTHING ... And even get crushed and wounded by Fuji's NAMELESS attack, while Luffy was much better against his signature Ferocious Tiger...

Luffy defeated the Joker of the New World, the partner of the Kaido, fucking DOFLAMINGO and makes his name even more famous, while Zoro beats only featless Pica, who is hardly better than the fodders.

Seriously, what kind of manga you Zoron fanboys are reading ?

Just wait for the Film Gold, where Zoro gets stomped by Gild Tesoro while Luffy beats him in the end, which is a logical equation unlike these stupid and illogical claims of Zoron fanboys.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Benn Beckman (Jul 26, 2016)

Current showings... It's obvious Zoro's current showings can't allow him to block or tank King Kong Gun, so why even make the thread.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Jul 26, 2016)

Luffy and Zoro after this fight (replace Doffy with Zoro):

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Yuki (Jul 26, 2016)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> Luffy and Zoro after this fight (replace Doffy with Zoro):



In, your, fucking, wet, dreams.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 2


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## NO (Jul 26, 2016)

Why even bother using current Zoro for this thread? Trolls are obviously going to say Luffy.

Zoro has incredible potential.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Yuki (Jul 26, 2016)

jayjay³² said:


> Why even bother using current Zoro for this thread? *Trolls are obviously going to say Luffy.*



 Sure JJ.

No, reasonable people are obviously going to say Luffy. >_>

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Muah (Jul 26, 2016)

Luffy twoshots but you knew that


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## Beast (Jul 27, 2016)

jayjay³² said:


> Zoro has incredible potential.


potential


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## Dunno (Jul 27, 2016)

Benn Beckman said:


> Current showings... It's obvious Zoro's current showings can't allow him to block or tank King Kong Gun, so why even make the thread.



First off, why is that obvious? Current showings isn't limited to what a character has done, but it also takes into consideration the length to which the character has been pushed. So if a character has shown a certain feat without much effort, current feats indicate that the character could do much better if he used full power. Secondly, why would he need to block KKG in order to beat Luffy? It has a hell of a long wind-up and quite a small AoE, dodging it would be easy.


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## Greed (Jul 27, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Luffy's using G4 here, so it's automatically very high or extreme diff. But you're right that Luffy will win quickly.





barreltheif said:


> If Luffy has to use G4, but then wins in one or two hits, then it's probably very high diff. If Zoro can put up resistance and requires several hits, then it's extreme.



This is some of the dumbest shit I've read in a while. Much appreciated


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## NO (Jul 27, 2016)

Greed said:


> This is some of the dumbest shit I've read in a while. Much appreciated


Do you not understand his logic, Lana Del Rey? If Goku has to use Spirit Bomb, right off the bat, to win, then it is clearly an extreme-diff fight.


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## Greed (Jul 27, 2016)

This is a battledome thread. Starting conditions do not auto-determine the difficulty. It's no different than a thread titled Super Saiyan 4 Goku vs Raditz is an extreme diff fight because Goku is starting in Super Saiyan 4

If these weren't the starting conditions you'd have a point, because then he'd need to use his strongest form to win (if applicable). However, with G4 active being pre-determined by the thread itself, that's not the case here now is it?


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## NO (Jul 27, 2016)

Lmfao, Super Saiyan is not even comparable. Kaioken might be. G4 has a time limit and G4 has side effects. Those side effects putting him in a critical condition after using it does alter the difficulty of the fight. It's not a low difficulty win if you have to recover in a hospital for weeks afterward.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Greed (Jul 27, 2016)

jayjay³² said:


> Lmfao, Super Saiyan is not even comparable. Kaioken might be. G4 has a time limit and G4 has side effects. Those side effects putting him in a critical condition after using it does alter the difficulty of the fight. It's not a low difficulty win if you have to recover in a hospital for weeks afterward.



...... It's really simple. It doesn't matter what or who's form I used, the point is starting conditions are determined by the thread creator, not out of necessity or difficulty. To quote:



> If Goku *has to use Spirit Bomb, right off the bat, to win*, then it is clearly an extreme-diff fight.



This isn't applicable because of the bolded. There is nothing determining anything _has_ to be used or done in either case. Kaioken, Super Saiyan, Bankai, Gears or whatever. You could make "Goku using Super Spirit Bomb with Kaiken x 20 vs Hopper from a bug's life" and I guarantee you'd get laughed out of the thread saying what's quoted above, but if this is something you truly believe and want to stick by then I have nothing else to say on the matter


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## barreltheif (Jul 27, 2016)

Greed said:


> This is a battledome thread. Starting conditions do not auto-determine the difficulty. It's no different than a thread titled Super Saiyan 4 Goku vs Raditz is an extreme diff fight because Goku is starting in Super Saiyan 4 If these weren't the starting conditions you'd have a point, because then he'd need to use his strongest form to win (if applicable). However, with G4 active being pre-determined by the thread itself, that's not the case here now is it?



Sanji vs Zoro. Zoro immediately goes out, opens with Asura, and uses his strongest attacks. What's the difficulty? The fact that it's stipulated that Zoro will go all out doesn't somehow make this low diff. If he goes all out, it's high+ diff. If he's completely exhausted and unable to move afterwards, it's extreme diff. That's how difficulty works.

I don't know about SSJ4 because I never read/watched past the original DB. Does it completely exhaust Goku and leave him unable to move afterwards? If so, then if he uses it it's extreme diff. Now, he would never use it against Raditz. But if he did use it to beat Raditz, it would be extreme diff.

Now, you could argue that Goku vs Raditz would still be no diff, because Goku _could_ have easily beaten Raditz without using SSJ4. He simply didn't because of the stipulation that he uses SSJ4. But that doesn't apply to Luffy vs Zoro or Zoro vs Sanji, because Luffy couldn't easily beat Zoro without using G4, and Zoro couldn't easily beat Sanji without using his strongest attacks.


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## Greed (Jul 27, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> ...
> 
> Now, you could argue that Goku vs Raditz would still be no diff, because Goku _could_ have easily beaten Raditz without using SSJ4. *He simply didn't because of the stipulation that he uses SSJ4. *But that doesn't apply to Luffy vs Zoro or Zoro vs Sanji, because Luffy couldn't easily beat Zoro without using G4, and Zoro couldn't easily beat Sanji without using his strongest attacks.



The bolded is part of the point here. Irrelevant to whether or not a character can defeat another without using said means, said means are determined to be used due to the thread creator making it so, not due to whether or not they can do it with or without it

Which is why the examples I gave illustrated this. To give examples for One Piece, I can make a "G4 Luffy vs Kuro" thread, or "Zoro using Ashura vs Axe-Hand Morgan", the who doesn't really matter.

As for how difficulty _works_, that really depends on who's standards you use. I can tell you now that just about every forum I've visited would not consider a "G4 Luffy vs Kuro" thread as high or extreme diff for Luffy simply because the OP has Luffy using G4, however. A _Character X_ vs Luffy thread where _Character X_ _legitimately_ necessitates the use of G4, or where they pose a significantly high chance of winning themselves, would be considered high diff. This is a matter of a fight actually _being _difficult, instead of how tired Luffy would be for using significant overkill where it's not required


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## Yuki (Jul 27, 2016)

Greed said:


> The bolded is part of the point here. Irrelevant to whether or not a character can defeat another without using said means, said means are determined to be used due to the thread creator making it so, not due to whether or not they can do it with or without it
> 
> Which is why the examples I gave illustrated this. To give examples for One Piece, I can make a "G4 Luffy vs Kuro" thread, or "Zoro using Ashura vs Axe-Hand Morgan", the who doesn't really matter.
> 
> As for how difficulty _works_, that really depends on who's standards you use. I can tell you now that just about every forum I've visited would not consider a "G4 Luffy vs Kuro" thread as high or extreme diff for Luffy simply because the OP has Luffy using G4, however. A _Character X_ vs Luffy thread where _Character X_ _legitimately_ necessitates the use of G4, or where they pose a significantly high chance of winning themselves, would be considered high diff. This is a matter of a fight actually _being _difficult, instead of how tired Luffy would be for using significant overkill where it's not required



It would not be Extreme vs Kuro because he is not Zoro and the Zoro wankers do not give a shit. No matter what you say when it comes to Luffy vs Zoro the result by the Zorotards is always the same. Extreme dif and nothing less.

Believe it or not but there are multiple people on this forum that think Zoro can match G4 Luffy and then kill him once G4 runs out. People that think Zoro can solo DD even though it took everything Law and Luffy had to do it. People that legit think Zoro actually wins in a 1 vs 1 while only counting current showings. Yet, not even one Zoro wanker thinks there is even one Zoro wanker in this forum. Just a hell of a lot of downplayers. 

Say Luffy beats Zoro with high dif, they will dislike your post and call you downplayer. Say current Zoro > Admiral. They will probs rep you and like your post. Everyone of my dislikes is from Zoro wankers and i get one for even hinting Zoro is lesser than they think he is.


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## NO (Jul 27, 2016)

Greed said:


> As for how difficulty _works_, that really depends on who's standards you use. I can tell you now that just about every forum I've visited would not consider a "G4 Luffy vs Kuro" thread as high or extreme diff for Luffy simply because the OP has Luffy using G4, however.


Let me just stop you right here. G4 Luffy vs Kuro is without a doubt low-diff because he'd just be flicking his finger and the fight would be over. There's no side effects or recovery for Luffy. He's not even exhausted. When he has to exhaust the abilities of G4, using up his stamina and haki, nearly getting himself knocked out as a side effect, then we say that is a difficult fight. If you are implying G4 Luffy can beat Zoro as easily as Kuro, then we're done here.


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## Greed (Jul 27, 2016)

jayjay³² said:


> If you are implying G4 Luffy can beat Zoro as easily as Kuro, then we're done here.


You're still missing the point. That or trying to strawman me. At no point did I mention anything about how Luffy vs Zoro goes, nor was the implication of such what I responded to. Hopefully your admitting that a "G4 Luffy vs Kuro" thread won't be a high/extreme diff fight for Luffy (due to the fact he's using G4) registers to you at some point that it's ultimately saying what I've been saying this whole time, though I won't bank on that

To redirect your argument to somewhere more applicable, try here


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Jul 27, 2016)

Luffy wankers will say he "low diffed Kaido" when he goes into Gear 8, and almost dies of exhaustion afterwards

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## giantbiceps (Jul 27, 2016)

Time to close this thread. General consensus is Luffy low-diffs.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## NO (Jul 28, 2016)

Greed said:


> You're still missing the point. That or trying to strawman me. At no point did I mention anything about how Luffy vs Zoro goes, nor was the implication of such what I responded to. Hopefully your admitting that a "G4 Luffy vs Kuro" thread won't be a high/extreme diff fight for Luffy (due to the fact he's using G4) registers to you at some point that it's ultimately saying what I've been saying this whole time, though I won't bank on that
> 
> To redirect your argument to somewhere more applicable, try here


I don't understand your point. Everyone's that talked to you doesn't understand your point. But here's my point: G4 Luffy fighting Zoro is without a doubt high-diff by default, given what happened to him after he fought DD.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 28, 2016)

Difficulty is based on how much effort someone uses. Regardless of what state the OP starts someone in is irrelevant. All that means is that the difficulty X person had is not a accurate measure of how the two fighters compare to each other strength wise.

If i start Gai off in 8 gates its a extreme diff win for Gai by default even if he one shots his opponents. Lets not mix up difficulty with power levels. They correlate but its not a 1 to 1 ratio. Depending on the situation someone can give someone else a really hard fight but be far below them in most situations.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## TheWiggian (Jul 28, 2016)

Luffy high diffs, with more feats Zoro might outlasts first G4 then it goes either way extreme diff slightly favouring Luffy.


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## Beast (Jul 28, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> If i start Gai off in 8 gates its a extreme diff win for Gai by default even if he one shots his opponents. Lets not mix up difficulty with power levels. They correlate but its not a 1 to 1 ratio. Depending on the situation someone can give someone else a really hard fight but be far below them in most situations.


Can't really agree with this part because how could you start at high diff?
It doesn't make sense.

If Gai 1Shots than in no way is that high diff. What happens to him after the initial fight does not matter... Only the actual fight, whether he dies a year later or 1month or 1 week or 1 day because of his OWN technique, it does not matter as the fight is already over.

@jayjay³² 

Luffy is only out for the count if he uses up the whole time limit... which he won't as zoro can't take more than 3-4 hits... which at best a low diff if not a stomp.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NO (Jul 28, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Can't really agree with this part because how could you start at high diff?
> It doesn't make sense.
> 
> If Gai 1Shots than in no way is that high diff. What happens to him after the initial fight does not matter... Only the actual fight, whether he dies a year later or 1month or 1 week or 1 day because of his OWN technique, it does not matter as the fight is already over.
> ...


If the fight exhausts the user, then there is difficulty involved, by default. 8 Gate Guy dies as a result of winning, no matter how weak his opponent is. That is an example of a extreme-diff fight. He had to go to _extreme lengths_ just to win.

If Luffy hops into G4 to one-shot somebody like Kuro, then we can say low-diff. Because he's probably not going to be fatigued and tired as fuck like he was after fighting DD. But Luffy is in G4 to fight Zoro - there is no way Luffy isn't getting exhausted from this fight. It is high-diff to extreme-diff by default.

If the OP stated "Luffy has mastered G4, does not have a time limit, and uses it as effortlessly as gear 2/3," then we can start using lower difficulties. As it stands right now, G4 Luffy has an enormous cost for its benefits.


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## Beast (Jul 28, 2016)

jayjay³² said:


> If the fight exhausts the user, then there is difficulty involved, by default. 8 Gate Guy dies as a result of winning, no matter how weak his opponent is. That is an example of a extreme-diff fight. He had to go to _extreme lengths_ just to win.
> 
> If Luffy hops into G4 to one-shot somebody like Kuro, then we can say low-diff. Because he's probably not going to be fatigued and tired as fuck like he was after fighting DD. But Luffy is in G4 to fight Zoro - there is no way Luffy isn't getting exhausted from this fight. It is high-diff to extreme-diff by default.
> 
> If the OP stated "Luffy has mastered G4, does not have a time limit, and uses it as effortlessly as gear 2/3," then we can start using lower difficulties. As it stands right now, G4 Luffy has an enormous cost for its benefits.


This is where you go wrong... Gai didn't go to extreme lengths to win... He was put in a situation where he STARTS in his strongest form. Luffy is very different from Gai as well.

And that's where the lines needs to be drawn. If Zoro can put a fight it becomes harder... but blocking or dodging 1 single attack is not going to make it high diff.luffy will only fall if he wastes ALL OF G4s TIME LIMIT. Zoro isn't lasting more than half that time limit, so luffy WON'T BE IN THE SAME STATE AS HE WAS AGAINST DD!


AN ENORMOUS COST ONLY IF HE IS FIGHTING THE WHOLE TIME LIMIT! 
ZORO ISN'T LASTING THE FULL LIMIT OF G4. 

How much he lasts is really a guess for anyone but he doesn't have the feats to take more than 3-4 hits. G4 luffy WAS MID DIFF DD DURING THE TIME LIMIT. 
High or extreme diff is out of the question in this thread.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Raiden34 (Jul 28, 2016)

Luffy still two shots him.... And Zoro only survives the first due to his sword block....

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Finalbeta (Jul 28, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Luffy still two shots him.... And Zoro only survives the first due to his sword block....


You mean Luffy will break his swords?


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## Raiden34 (Jul 28, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> You mean Luffy will break his swords?


He would break his defense for sure.

Doffy's Haki & Strength > Zoro's Haki & Strength and look what happened to Doffy's Haki defense.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Jikuu (Jul 28, 2016)

G4 Luffy >>>>>> Luffy > Zorro...

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 28, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Can't really agree with this part because how could you start at high diff?
> It doesn't make sense.
> 
> If Gai 1Shots than in no way is that high diff. What happens to him after the initial fight does not matter... Only the actual fight, whether he dies a year later or 1month or 1 week or 1 day because of his OWN technique, it does not matter as the fight is already over.
> ...



Eight Gate has a immediate effect though.

Even if Gai just stands there and does nothing his body is put through immense strain and a high level of pain. Even if he one shots the shit his body went through to do such a thing is of a extremely high level.


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## Dunno (Jul 28, 2016)

Jikuu said:


> G4 Luffy >>>>>> Luffy > Zorro...



How can G4 Luffy be stronger than Luffy when Luffy can become G4 Luffy at will? Your logic is flawed.



MasterBeast said:


> This is where you go wrong... Gai didn't go to extreme lengths to win... He was put in a situation where he STARTS in his strongest form. Luffy is very different from Gai as well.
> 
> And that's where the lines needs to be drawn. If Zoro can put a fight it becomes harder... but blocking or dodging 1 single attack is not going to make it high diff.luffy will only fall if he wastes ALL OF G4s TIME LIMIT. Zoro isn't lasting more than half that time limit, so luffy WON'T BE IN THE SAME STATE AS HE WAS AGAINST DD!
> 
> ...



How can you be so sure that Zoro can't last the whole duration of G4? If a fresh Doflamingo would have failed to last it, you would have a point, but what happened was that a severely injured Doflamingo outlasted the whole G4 duration with severe but not life-threatening injuries. 

Zoro's feats doesn't put him comfortably at the "can outlast G4"-level, but they don't put him below that level either. They put him right at the "Hasn't shown his durability or stamina at all post-TS because no-one has managed to push him far enough, and therefore it's impossible to either rule out or state for certain that he can outlast G4"-level. 

And G4 Luffy wasn't mid diffing Doflamingo during the G4 time limit. He was losing with high diff, because of it. Every second that Luffy in G4 doesn't bring his opponent close to K.O. than he himself gets by just being in that form is one second he is losing the fight.


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## Finalbeta (Jul 29, 2016)

Jikuu said:


> G4 Luffy >>>>>> Luffy > Zorro...


Pretty sure Zoro beats G2/G3 Luffy


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## Beast (Jul 29, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Eight Gate has a immediate effect though.
> 
> Even if Gai just stands there and does nothing his body is put through immense strain and a high level of pain. Even if he one shots the shit his body went through to do such a thing is of a extremely high level.


Can't really remember Naruto too much espically the war... but you get my point.

@Dunno 

You need to learn the rules... what you said is as low an excuse as it gets. Do you know what Zoro's position is right now?  It's called not having the feats beating pica and the like is not going to put him on the level of G4 never will that happen. 
Zoro doesn't have the feats to tank more than 2-3 hits and that's much is fact. I'm not going to reply because God knows what rules you use to debate but I will tell you that everything in your post is pretty much wrong and not point in me adressing any of it.

Luffy was mid diff DD... go read it again, DD was helpless against it.


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## Finalbeta (Jul 29, 2016)

Btw Zoro did never lack durability in the whole story

It's not hard to say his dura is much highter than Law's although it might not be on same Doffy's level


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## Beast (Jul 29, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> Btw Zoro did never lack durability in the whole story
> 
> It's not hard to say his dura is much highter than Law's although it might not be on same Doffy's level


Law didn't have any feats pre TS so it's stupid to make such an assumption.


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## Raiden34 (Jul 29, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> Pretty sure Zoro beats G2/G3 Luffy


Luffy defeated a fresh and angry Chinjao, and scarred Fujitora, re-shaped Chinjao's head, one-shotted Hajrudin, defeated drugged Hody underwater despite the fact he is a DF user, moved fast enough to dodge from Doflamingo, caught Cavendish's sword barehanded. One shotted post-TS Bellamy when he is serious.



G2/G3 Luffy is simply stronger and faster than Zoro. That's why Zoro admitted his inferiority even before G4.

Only delusional Zoron fanboys would think that Zoro is equal to Luffy in any form...

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Amol (Jul 30, 2016)

The best Zoro can hope here is low diff if even that seems unlikely.
Gear Fourth makes Luffy a Top tier.


barreltheif said:


> Luffy's using G4 here, so it's automatically very high or extreme diff.


And thus you have successfully proved that you don't have faintest idea about how to calculate diff of the fight.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Kaiser (Jul 30, 2016)

G4 isn't Luffy's normal state. It gives him overwhelming power for a limited period of time with heavy repercussions(from 10minutes to 3days recovery after complete exhaustion depending on the mode duration and intensity of attacks). Rayleigh even said in a flashback g4 took too much of a toll on his body. When you use a mode that is such a burden on your body, it automatically rises the difficulty to at least mid difficulty and depending on how far Luffy is pushed while in that mode, it continues to rise from high to extreme if not outright beaten. 

Not sure what it meant by current showings but it would depend on 2 things. Zoro's reaction speed and endurance. Seeing how Doflamingo had a hard time to keep up with G4 however, Zoro would have similar if not worse issues and the sheer power of g4 would overwhelm him(even if he blocked). And with current showings only, Zoro has no endurance feats due to barely having being hit at all, but with the power-scale comparatively to his preskip self, it shouldn't be that much worse than half health Doflamingo, so should be able to take a good beating before going down. Because of this reason then, i go with high diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## Raiden34 (Jul 30, 2016)

Kaiser said:


> G4 isn't Luffy's normal state. It gives him overwhelming power for a limited period of time with heavy repercussions(from 10minutes to 3days recovery after complete exhaustion depending on the mode duration and intensity of attacks)



That's wrong.

First off, Luffy was already exhausted even before G4. He was in the same shape after defeating Crocodile, Lucci or even Moria...

And he didn't even use G4 for one-time there, he used it two times. Which means, a fresh Luffy, without any stress and wounds, would be more powerful and he wouldn't need that day long recovery.



Kaiser said:


> but with the power-scale comparatively to his preskip self, it shouldn't be that much worse than half health Doflamingo, so should be able to take a good beating before going down. Because of this reason then, i go with high diff



As I said, Luffy was in a half health condition too. When you give his full health, meaning a fresh G4, which is much more powerful. So considering Dressrosa G4 isn't the best G4 performance you can take into consideration.

A fresh G4 one-shots Zoro, even in his half health Dressrosa form he probably two-three shots him.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 31, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Can't really remember Naruto too much espically the war... but you get my point.
> 
> @Dunno
> 
> ...



I do get what your saying im just saying it does not applie in this particular case. Luffy being in G4 even if started in that mode by the OP is mid diff by default regardless of his opponent. Stronger the opponent then it gets pushed to high and extreme.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 31, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> That's wrong.
> 
> First off, Luffy was already exhausted even before G4. He was in the same shape after defeating Crocodile, Lucci or even Moria...
> 
> ...







Luffy will never be able to one shot a on-guard zoro period. Like never, what manga have you been reading.


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## NO (Jul 31, 2016)

Amol said:


> And thus you have successfully proved that you don't have faintest idea about how to calculate diff of the fight.


You obviously have no clue what difficulty means.


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## Raiden34 (Jul 31, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Luffy will never be able to one shot a on-guard zoro period. Like never, what manga have you been reading.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 31, 2016)

We will never see a fresh G4 Luffy because he always uses his trump card as last. Same will go for awakening when he gets it. It'll probably will be awakened during a very hard fight as a last resort.

So fresh G4 Luffy is fanfiction unless there will be another timeskip that he spams it like his G2 nowadays.


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## NO (Jul 31, 2016)

Cute fan coloring. Is that all you wanted to show us?


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## Raiden34 (Jul 31, 2016)

jayjay³² said:


> Cute fan coloring. Is that all you wanted to show us?


Of course not.



Remind something ?


Zoro accepts his inferiority once again...


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## Finalbeta (Jul 31, 2016)

TheWiggian said:


> We will never see a fresh G4 Luffy because he always uses his trump card as last. Same will go for awakening when he gets it. It'll probably will be awakened during a very hard fight as a last resort.
> 
> So fresh G4 Luffy is fanfiction unless there will be another timeskip that he spams it like his G2 nowadays.


He was more fresh than Doffy that's enough


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 31, 2016)

Zoro talking trash to pica.





Erkan12 said:


> Of course not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm sorry but when do someone in this thread say that Zoro believes he is stronger then Luffy?


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## The Bloody Nine (Jul 31, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Luffy still two shots him.... And Zoro only survives the first due to his sword block....



I can't believe you're making me defend Zoro but...even though I don't think Zoro is fast enough to block any shots...i still think with powerscaling he is tough enough to take 3 hits.


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## Raiden34 (Jul 31, 2016)

The Bloody Nine said:


> I can't believe you're making me defend Zoro but...even though I don't think Zoro is fast enough to block any shots...i still think with powerscaling he is tough enough to take 3 hits.


Are we talking about the same Zoro ?



It would be the same treatment.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 31, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Are we talking about the same Zoro ?
> 
> 
> 
> It would be the same treatment.



Why don't you post a gif of pre skip Luffy making BB coughing up blood from a jet pistol that Lucci took without that much of a problem?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Dunno (Jul 31, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> @Dunno
> 
> You need to learn the rules... what you said is as low an excuse as it gets. Do you know what Zoro's position is right now?  It's called not having the feats beating pica and the like is not going to put him on the level of G4 never will that happen.
> Zoro doesn't have the feats to tank more than 2-3 hits and that's much is fact. I'm not going to reply because God knows what rules you use to debate but I will tell you that everything in your post is pretty much wrong and not point in me adressing any of it.
> ...



You've got it all wrong. Zoro does not have the feat of outlasting G4, but Luffy doesn't have the feat of putting down Zoro within the time limit of G4 either. We know that G4s upper limit is below a severely wounded Doflamingo, but we don't know how a fresh Zoro compares to a severely wounded Doflamingo. Luffy doesn't have the feat of outputting enough damage to knock down Zoro in five minutes in G4, and *that *is fact. Here's a general guideline to how comparing feats work: For Character A's feats to be considered superior to Character B's, Char B else must have feats showing that he is weaker than Char A, otherwise a comparison can't be made.

To sum it up:

A = Luffy's total offence in the G4 Timelimit
B = A severely wounded Doflamingo's total defence
C = A fresh Zoro's defense

We know that A < B
We don't know anything about C
How can you honestly in this scenario claim that the feats show that A > C?

Also, what are these rules you are talking about? I'm using general logic, and if you don't, then you are doing it wrong.


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## Beast (Aug 1, 2016)

Dunno said:


> You've got it all wrong. Zoro does not have the feat of outlasting G4, but Luffy doesn't have the feat of putting down Zoro within the time limit of G4 either.


loooool man that's it for me with thread.

The fuck does this even mean? 

This logic is unbeatable. ha

I'm gonna use it everywhere... man have you taught me something new.


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## Raiden34 (Aug 1, 2016)

TheWiggian said:


> Why don't you post a gif of pre skip Luffy making BB coughing up blood from a jet pistol that Lucci took without that much of a problem?



Haha... thewiggian as usual... Unlike Zoro, BB didn't lose his consciousness, and smash Luffy into the ground...

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Dellinger (Aug 1, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> He was more fresh than Doffy that's enough


Here with this bullshit again.They were in similar condition,it was highlighted twice.Also Luffy needs CoA to keep the duration of G4 and he was already using it during the whole arc even prior to the Doflamingo fight.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## barreltheif (Aug 1, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Here with this bullshit again.They were in similar condition,it was highlighted twice.



Nope
Luffy is much weaker than Doflamingo, but he is not absolute fodder to him. If Luffy took as much damage from getting punched by Bellamy while guarding with CoA as Doffy took from an unguarded Red Hawk + an unguarded Injection Shot + an unguarded Gamma Knife + countershock + multiple G2 attacks, then Luffy would be almost infinitely weaker than Doffy. At least, he would be in endurance and durability. You're free to massively underestimate Luffy's endurance if you want, but you're only going to get proven wrong the next time we see him in a tough fight.


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## Dellinger (Aug 1, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Nope
> Luffy is much weaker than Doflamingo, but he is not absolute fodder to him. If Luffy took as much damage from getting punched by Bellamy while guarding with CoA as Doffy took from an unguarded Red Hawk + an unguarded Injection Shot + an unguarded Gamma Knife + countershock + multiple G2 attacks, then Luffy would be almost infinitely weaker than Doffy. At least, he would be in endurance and durability. You're free to massively underestimate Luffy's endurance if you want, but you're only going to get proven wrong the next time we see him in a tough fight.



Luffy is not much weaker than Doflamingo.Their fight proved it.Luffy did not only take damage from Bellamy.You forget Doflamingo's attacks,you forget his exhaustion during the whole day and yes Luffy getting hitted countless times by Bellamy can take its toll.Oda pegged them at a similar condition twice.Also a couple of hits from G4 did way more damage on Doffy than all of the shit you listed.


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## Raiden34 (Aug 1, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Nope
> Luffy is much weaker than Doflamingo, but he is not absolute fodder to him. If Luffy took as much damage from *getting punched by Bellamy while guarding with CoA *as Doffy took from an unguarded Red Hawk + an unguarded Injection Shot + an unguarded Gamma Knife + countershock + multiple G2 attacks, then Luffy would be almost infinitely weaker than Doffy. At least, he would be in endurance and durability. You're free to massively underestimate Luffy's endurance if you want, but you're only going to get proven wrong the next time we see him in a tough fight.



That's not guarding, Luffy simply used CoA on his belly, he didn't try to stop Bellamy's punch with his own arms.

Not to mention that was Bellamy's strongest attack amplified by his DF power, a special attack more or less.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## barreltheif (Aug 1, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Luffy is not much weaker than Doflamingo.Their fight proved it.Luffy did not only take damage from Bellamy.You forget Doflamingo's attacks,you forget his exhaustion during the whole day and yes Luffy getting hitted countless times by Bellamy can take its toll.Oda pegged them at a similar condition twice.Also a couple of hits from G4 did way more damage on Doffy than all of the shit you listed.



Good, if you think that Luffy is not much weaker than Doflamingo, then you should certainly agree that Luffy can't be seriously injured by Bellamy punching him while he was guarding with haki, getting hit by a couple of Doffy's weakest attacks, and having a couple fights in a row in which he wasn't damaged much. If he did, then he would be almost infinitely below Doffy in endurance and durability.

Oda never said anything about Luffy and Doffy being similarly damaged. Nor did any character. That's pure fanfiction. Doffy said that Luffy was weakened. Luffy said that Doffy was weakened and had taken "one hell of an attack" from Law. There was no mention of them having taken a similar degree of damage. Even if there had been, we would know that it's false, because we actually saw the damage Luffy took, and since he isn't fodder, we know it wasn't enough to seriously injure him.



Erkan12 said:


> That's not guarding, Luffy simply used CoA on his belly, he didn't try to stop Bellamy's punch with his own arms.



Guarding your belly with CoA is a way of guarding your belly. Guarding with your arms would be a different way of guarding it.



> Not to mention that was Bellamy's strongest attack amplified by his DF power, a special attack more or less.



Yep


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## Finalbeta (Aug 1, 2016)

Luffy didn't get his organs shredded tho.

Stitching them doesn't eliminate the immediate damage


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## Dunno (Aug 1, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> loooool man that's it for me with thread.
> 
> The fuck does this even mean?
> 
> ...



I take it you single out one sentence because you have no answer to the rest of the post? What I don't understand is how it's possible to fail to understand what my sentence means, but I'll try to elaborate. Luffy has not shown the firepower to put Zoro down within the span of time that the G4 mode is active. This is true because we have not been shown any feats that makes it possible to compare a fresh Zoro's defence to that of an injured Doflamingo. Luffy has shown that he can almost put down an injured Doflamingo with G4, but that does not automatically mean that he can put down a fresh Zoro with G4. If we know the extent of Luffy's firepower, but not the strength of Zoro's defense, then how can we say that Luffy has shown that he can put Zoro down within the time limit of G4? Do you understand what I'm saying? 

And please use my logic considering everything. It's rock solid, whatever situation you apply it to. For example, using your rules, Luffy would have better feats than Dragon, because Dragon hasn't shown that he can withstand something like G4. Using my logic, their feats are incomparable because of a lack of feats on Dragon's part.  

The basic idea is that feats isn't even close to everything, and that portrayal and logic also plays a large part in determining a character's strength. If you consider feats to be the only way of determining a character's strength, then a lot of characters are going to be impossible to compare. Using the previous example, we can conclude that Dragon is with the uttermost certainty stronger than Luffy by comparing their positions in the world, their hype and adding to that the fact that Dragon is Luffy's badass father, one of the milestones of the MC's power progression and someone whom they usually don't surpass until some kind of special event occurs.  

This way of comparing characters works with anyone, even if they don't have feats, as long as we know at least a little bit about them. You could for example compare post-TS Coby to Vasco Shot and come to a reasonable conclusion about where they stand in comparison to each other. 

Now, I would ask that you please reconsider your way of interpreting feats, even if I obviously don't expect you to concede in this thread.


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## Jackalinthebox (Aug 1, 2016)

Luffy wrecks him like Kuina used to


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## Mr. Good vibes (Aug 1, 2016)

All G4 Luffy threads are cancer.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Aug 1, 2016)

The question in this thread is if Luffy can take down Zoro in the timelimit G4 has not if Zoro can take down luffy in the G4 timelimit which most people seem to be answering

And the answer simply is yes. Doflamingo with his organs all messed up and in an overall bad condition took Luffy's g4 beatdown just fine and would've killed Luffy if not for all the interference which there is none of in this scenario against Zoro

Reactions: Like 2


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## savior2005 (Aug 1, 2016)

luffy will prolly need most if not all his time, but he will win. zoro is a tank.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 2, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Here with this bullshit again.*They were in similar condition*,it was highlighted twice.Also Luffy needs CoA to keep the duration of G4 and he was already using it during the whole arc even prior to the Doflamingo fight.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Beast (Aug 2, 2016)

Dunno said:


> I take it you single out one sentence because you have no answer to the rest of the post? What I don't understand is how it's possible to fail to understand what my sentence means, but I'll try to elaborate. Luffy has not shown the firepower to put Zoro down within the span of time that the G4 mode is active. This is true because we have not been shown any feats that makes it possible to compare a fresh Zoro's defence to that of an injured Doflamingo. Luffy has shown that he can almost put down an injured Doflamingo with G4, but that does not automatically mean that he can put down a fresh Zoro with G4. If we know the extent of Luffy's firepower, but not the strength of Zoro's defense, then how can we say that Luffy has shown that he can put Zoro down within the time limit of G4? Do you understand what I'm saying?
> 
> And please use my logic considering everything. It's rock solid, whatever situation you apply it to. For example, using your rules, Luffy would have better feats than Dragon, because Dragon hasn't shown that he can withstand something like G4. Using my logic, their feats are incomparable because of a lack of feats on Dragon's part.
> 
> ...


Nami doesn't have the feats to outlast G4 Luffy but Luffy also does not have the feats beat Nami within the limit.


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## Ashi (Aug 2, 2016)

Dat damage control


"A stomp isn't a stomp if the character uses his stronger moves!!!!!"


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## barreltheif (Aug 2, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> "A stomp isn't a stomp if the character uses his stronger moves!!!!!"



You understand that this is, by definition, true?


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## Dunno (Aug 2, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Nami doesn't have the feats to outlast G4 Luffy but Luffy also does not have the feats beat Nami within the limit.



Now I'm not sure of exactly what kinds of feats Nami has, but if she has feats that shows the limit of her defense and it is lower than that of an injured Doflamingo, then Luffy does indeed have the feats that show he can beat Nami within the G4 time limit. Otherwise, your statement is correct. The thing is that we don't need feats to determine the outcome of a fight between Luffy and Nami, because their portrayal and hype are worlds apart. Feats are only necessary to determine outcomes of close fights.  

The difference here is that while Nami has always been portrayed as far weaker and had far weaker feats than than Luffy, the same cannot be said about Zoro. He's even had superior feats on several occasions throughout the manga. Therefore the outcome is more unclear, especially when Luffy is slightly nerfed (Being forced to start in G4).


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## Yuki (Aug 2, 2016)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> The question in this thread is if Luffy can take down Zoro in the timelimit G4 has not if Zoro can take down luffy in the G4 timelimit which most people seem to be answering
> 
> And the answer simply is yes. Doflamingo with his organs all messed up and in an overall bad condition took Luffy's g4 beatdown just fine and would've killed Luffy if not for all the interference which there is none of in this scenario against Zoro



Doffy took overall like 6 attacks because he was able to fend Luffy off with his awakening.

Zoro has got nothing on Awakend DDs level to halt G4s assault so Zoro would not just be taking the 6 hits that DD took, but 20 more of them as well.

You cannot just give Zoro DDs ability to keep G4 Luffy at bay just because you want to.

Luffy had taken damage prior to using G4, weakening his G4 and he had also used lots of haki, diminishing his haki reserves aka, shortening the time he could remain in G4.

The G4 Luffy you saw fighting DD was not the G4 Luffy in this scenario.

A 100% G4 would be able to not only move faster, attack harder but also fight for possibly twice as long.

You cannot just say "DD was injured and everything." and use it as an excuse for Zoro when Luffy him self was notably weaker proven by DD who had barely even seen Luffy fight SAW that Luffy had weakened and was not fighting at his full potential.


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## Beast (Aug 3, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Now I'm not sure of exactly what kinds of feats Nami has, but if she has feats that shows the limit of her defense and it is lower than that of an injured Doflamingo, then Luffy does indeed have the feats that show he can beat Nami within the G4 time limit. Otherwise,* your statement is correct*. The thing is that we don't need feats to determine the outcome of a fight between Luffy and Nami, because their portrayal and hype are worlds apart. Feats are only necessary to determine outcomes of close fights.
> 
> The difference here is that while Nami has always been portrayed as far weaker and had far weaker feats than than Luffy, the same cannot be said about Zoro. He's even had superior feats on several occasions throughout the manga. Therefore the outcome is more unclear, especially when Luffy is slightly nerfed (Being forced to start in G4).


dude don't know who taught you to think like that but it's absolute garbage logic and is way too flawed too even use in any case. I'll give you one more example and of you still don't get it than god help us all.
Mariko's baby (the girl from luffy's village) DOES NOT have the feats to out last G4 but Luffy neither has the feats to beat mariko's baby within the time limit... do you understand ? That logic could never work.


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## Finalbeta (Aug 3, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


>


Yeah people will never understand how much Doflamingo was weakened in that fight but if they are happy being delusional well


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## Raiden34 (Aug 3, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> Yeah people will never understand how much Doflamingo was weakened in that fight but if they are happy being delusional well


Except Doflamingo himself is the one that says Luffy was weakened a lot. And these guys are Observation Haki users.


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## Dellinger (Aug 3, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> Yeah people will never understand how much Doflamingo was weakened in that fight but if they are happy being delusional well


Did you see Doflamingo's performance being hindered?All I saw was a guy jumping around and laughing his ass off just fine.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 3, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Did you see Doflamingo's performance being hindered?


Yes. Pre Gamma Knife, Doflamingo was able to dodge G2 and block G3 attacks. Post Gamma Knife, BASE Luffy could tag him and Doflamingo opted to dodge G3.
Is it seriously that hard to admit Doflamingo was more injured than Luffy? I don't really understand why that's so hard to admit, there's no shame in that.


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## Dellinger (Aug 3, 2016)

Jigen said:


> Yes. Pre Gamma Knife, Doflamingo was able to dodge G2 and block G3 attacks. Post Gamma Knife, BASE Luffy could tag him and Doflamingo opted to dodge G3.
> Is it seriously that hard to admit Doflamingo was more injured than Luffy? I don't really understand why that's so hard to admit, there's no shame in that.


You speak about 2 fucking clashes.Luffy was said to be severely injured by Doflamingo why is it so hard to accept this also?

You guys are the ones with the bullshit.We have both characters commenting about each other injuries meaning Oda wanted them to be on a similar condition.You have fail to accept that.Also if Gamma Knife was as serious an injury as you guys claim Doflamingo would be dead after KKG.

Also anyway.G4 takes a crap on Zoro and that's all that matters here.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 3, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> You speak about 2 fucking clashes.


Well...yeah. Why wouldn't I? Going from handling G2/3 Luffy with ease to dodging G3 and being tagged by Base Luffy is a pretty noticeable drop.


White Hawk said:


> Luffy was said to be severely injured by Doflamingo why is it so hard to accept this also?



All that Doflamingo said is that Luffy was injured. That's it. Also...dude, it was Bellamy. No, not Vergo, not even one of the Seats, it was Bellamy.


White Hawk said:


> You guys are the ones with the bullshit.We have both characters commenting about each other injuries meaning Oda wanted them to be on a similar condition.


Getting hit a few times by a half dead Bellamy is not even remotely comparable to taking a surprise Red Hawk, Injection Shot, and Gamma Knife + Countershock combo.


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## Dellinger (Aug 3, 2016)

Jigen said:


> Well...yeah. Why wouldn't I? Going from handling G2/3 Luffy with ease to dodging G3 and being tagged by Base Luffy is a pretty noticeable drop.



Luffy was also tired.Again why don't you accept this?Luffy was also perfectly capable of keeping up with Doflamingo's speed beforehand.


All that Doflamingo said is that Luffy was injured. That's it. Also...dude, it was Bellamy. No, not Vergo, not even one of the Seats, it was Bellamy.[/quote]

So both of them were weakened quite a bit.Again proves my point that Oda wanted them to be in a similar condition.

Fodder soldiers managed to pierce WB with swords,Law was hurt by bullets.Big fucking deal.



> Getting hit a few times by a half dead Bellamy is not even remotely comparable to taking a surprise Red Hawk, Injection Shot, and Gamma Knife + Countershock combo.


Few times?Belllamy managed to land tons of hits on Luffy and most of them were unguarded.Yes because injection shot really hindered Doflamingo.The fucker destroyed Law moments later.Also Countershock?The same fucking attack that did nothing to Vergo who Doflamingo takes a crap on?

Luffy who needs massive stamina and Haki in order to use G4 lacked much of it in his fight against Doffy and he still came only one attack short of soloing him.You guys should accept that.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 3, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Luffy was also tired.Again why don't you accept this?Luffy was also perfectly capable of keeping up with Doflamingo's speed beforehand.
> 
> So both of them were weakened quite a bit.Again proves my point that Oda wanted them to be in a similar condition.


If Oda actually wanted to try and put them in a comparable condition (I'd bring up the actual translation, but I've given up on that), he failed spectacularly, because one guy fought and took attacks from two of the strongest upcoming rookies from the Worst Generation, and the other guy got smacked around by a fucking fodder. If Luffy was seriously injured by a half dead Bellamy of all people, that just makes him look even worse in comparison to Doflamingo.


White Hawk said:


> Few times?Belllamy managed to land tons of hits on Luffy and most of them were unguarded.Yes because injection shot really hindered Doflamingo.The fucker destroyed Law moments later.Also Countershock?The same fucking attack that did nothing to Vergo who Doflamingo takes a crap on?


I don't know about you, but I'd much rather take some hits from a half dead Bellamy than take attacks from two of the strongest Supernovas. Also last time I checked, apart from his fight with Sanji, Vergo was relatively fresh when he got hit by Countershock, while Doflamingo took Countershock after having his organs run through a meat grinder.


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## Dellinger (Aug 3, 2016)

Jigen said:


> If Oda actually wanted to try and put them in a comparable condition (I'd bring up the actual translation, but I've given up on that), he failed spectacularly, because one guy fought and took attacks from two of the strongest upcoming rookies from the Worst Generation, and the other guy got smacked around by a fucking fodder. If Luffy was seriously injured by a half dead Bellamy of all people, that just makes him look even worse in comparison to Doflamingo.


Oda had both of them comment on their injuries.There was no you're more injured than I am crap so I don't think this needs to be clarified more.Doflamingo was not in a much worse shape than Luffy,that was fucking obvious.



> I don't know about you, but I'd much rather take some hits from a half dead Bellamy than take attacks from two of the strongest Supernovas. Also last time I checked, apart from his fight with Sanji, Vergo was relatively fresh when he got hit by Countershock, while Doflamingo took Countershock after having his organs run through a meat grinder.



Why didn't Doflamingo die after his organs were run through the meet grinder?Why didn't he die after KKG where his strings got destroyed?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 3, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Oda had both of them comment on their injuries.There was no you're more injured than I am crap so I don't think this needs to be clarified more.*Doflamingo was not in a much worse shape than Luffy,that was fucking obvious.*





White Hawk said:


> Why didn't Doflamingo die after his organs were run through the meet grinder?Why didn't he die after KKG where his strings got destroyed?


How many times do people actually die in this manga after all the insane injuries they go through? Once every other decade?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Dellinger (Aug 3, 2016)

Stop with the gifs and refute my point.



> How many times do people actually die in this manga after all the insane injuries they go through? Once every other decade?



Monet died with her heart stabbed,Vergo died,WB died,Ace died.Doflamingo's so called injury should be on par with what WB went through according to you guys.But wait.Doflamingo was jumping around just fine,he was not slowing down during his fight with Luffy and only got his shit wrecked after G4.He was a walking corpse after Leo Bazooka not Gamma Knife.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 3, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Stop with the gifs and refute my point.


If you actually believe Luffy and Doflamingo's conditions were comparable, there is nothing else to say at this point.


White Hawk said:


> Monet died with her heart stabbed,Vergo died


Pell took a nuke at point blank range and Bon Clay survived a pissed off Magellan. I'll be surprised if Vergo and Monet aren't alive right now.


White Hawk said:


> WB died,Ace died.


The *only* two of how many other insanely injured people that actually died in One Piece.


White Hawk said:


> Doflamingo's so called injury should be on par with what WB went through according to you guys.But wait.Doflamingo was jumping around just fine,*he was not slowing down during his fight with Luffy* and only got his shit wrecked after G4.He was a walking corpse after Leo Bazooka not Gamma Knife.


Except that he did slow down after taking Gamma Knife, so...

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Dunno (Aug 3, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> dude don't know who taught you to think like that but it's absolute garbage logic and is way too flawed too even use in any case. I'll give you one more example and of you still don't get it than god help us all.
> Mariko's baby (the girl from luffy's village) DOES NOT have the feats to out last G4 but Luffy neither has the feats to beat mariko's baby within the time limit... do you understand ? That logic could never work.



I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Luffy doesn't have the feats showing t hat he can beat Makino's baby, no. This is a fact. We have not seen Makino's baby fight, and therefore we can say that it has worse feats than Luffy. It actually has the exact same feats as Kong has, or as Kaido or Big Mom had prior to their recent introductions, and we can't say that Luffy had feats superior to the two of them at that point either. If someone has the *exact* same feats as Kaido, how can you say that Luffy has better feats than that person has? It's completely wrong on every level. 

Now what we can do is say that the feats are totally irrelevant, because it's clear as day that Luffy is stronger than that baby because of a lot of other reasons. I reiterate: feats are not nearly everything we can use to determine a character's strength, they have their uses, but we're often fine even when two character's feats are incomparable. The important thing is to not consider equal feats differently because of what character has them, like you would do in the Makino's baby - Kong example. 

Luffy does not have better feats than Kong. Luffy does not have better feats than Prime Roger. Luffy does not have better feats than Makino's baby. This is true because all of these three have the exact same feats, and their feats therefore have to be considered in the exact same way. 

Now please understand what I'm saying. Luffy doesn't have better feats than Makino's baby, but neither does he have worse feats than Kong. All of these characters are simply impossible to compare using feats. This does not mean that we can't compare them using other metrics though, like for example hype, logic or portrayal.


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## Beast (Aug 4, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Luffy does not have better feats than Kong. Luffy does not have better feats than Prime Roger. Luffy does not have better feats than Makino's baby. This is true because all of these three have the exact same feats, and their feats therefore have to be considered in the exact same way.


someone come make some damn sense of this.


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## Dunno (Aug 4, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> someone come make some damn sense of this.



How can you not understand? Roger has no feats. Luffy has feats. This does not in any way mean that Luffy is feat-wise superior to Roger. It simply means that their feats are incomparable. It's as simple as that. And since Makino's baby has the exact same feats as Roger does, it's feats are also incomparable to Luffy's. You can't consider Roger's non-feats superior to anyone else's non-feats, since they are the exact same non-feats. 0 = 0, no matter what character you're talking about.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## barreltheif (Aug 4, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> someone come make some damn sense of this.



How is it difficult to understand? Characters that don't have feats can't be compared to other characters based on feats. You instead look at hype, statements, and portrayal.


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## Typhon (Aug 5, 2016)

That's bull shit. It doesn't matter if Luffy needs to recover after using G4. It takes almost nothing to activate it. If Luffy goes into G4 and one shots somebody, it's a low diff fight. Turning into his most powerful mode off the bat doesn't scale the difficulty.

Luffy without G4 needs mid diff to beat Chinjao. Luffy uses it and that's a no diff fight as Chinjao would probably be down after a Rhino Schneider

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Beast (Aug 5, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> How is it difficult to understand? Characters that don't have feats can't be compared to other characters based on feats. You instead look at hype, statements, and portrayal.


Zoro actually has feats. Just not enough... which isn't good enough.


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## MYJC (Aug 5, 2016)

Jigen said:


> Yes. Pre Gamma Knife, Doflamingo was able to dodge G2 and block G3 attacks. Post Gamma Knife, BASE Luffy could tag him and Doflamingo opted to dodge G3.
> Is it seriously that hard to admit Doflamingo was more injured than Luffy? I don't really understand why that's so hard to admit, there's no shame in that.



Doflamingo was more injured (due to GK) but Luffy was more tired/exhausted (due to fighting all day). 

I'm sure a fresh Luffy could maintain G4 longer.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Aug 5, 2016)

MYJC said:


> Doflamingo was more injured (due to GK) but Luffy was more tired/exhausted (due to fighting all day).


Copy and paste to the rescue once again...
Doflamingo had been fighting all day too. He had to cut Issho's meteor, hunted Law with Issho, chased after Law when he escaped, fought Sanji and tanked several DJ kicks, fought Law on the bridge, fought Luffy + Kyros and tanked Luffy's Jet Gatling, put Bird Cage up to control the whole country and kept it up until he was beaten, created multiple string clones, fought Luffy and Law together (during which he got a free Red Hawk without any protection and an Injection Shot to the side), and finally got his organs turned to paste by a Gamma Knife + Countershock combo before fighting G4. No, he wasn't tired from that at all.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Dunno (Aug 5, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Zoro actually has feats. Just not enough... which isn't good enough.



He doesn't have any feats showing the limit of his defense. Therefore we don't know how much damage he can block and tank before going down. Therefore there's no feat-wise support for Luffy being able to take down Zoro before the time limit, just like there is no feat-wise support for Zoro being able to endure it.


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## Finalbeta (Aug 5, 2016)

Luffy was legit more exausted but the difference between Doffy pre-gamma knife and post was pretty large.

Doffy pre gamma knife mid diffs the Doffy post gamma knife. Higher end at best.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 2


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## Beast (Aug 5, 2016)

Luffy was always able to take down Zoro... so idk what kinda of hype or potrayal you guys are thinking of that could make him outlast G4 or even not instantly get KO'd.


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## Dunno (Aug 5, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Luffy was always able to take down Zoro... so idk what kinda of hype or potrayal you guys are thinking of that could make him outlast G4 or even not instantly get KO'd.



One example could be how he took all of Luffy's damage in addition to his own at TB and remained standing. Zoro's endurance at that point was way above his captain's. There's also the way Zoro was eager to attack Fujitora after he blew Luffy away and the way Zoro has had better portrayal against several opponents post-TS than Luffy. And he obviously won't get instantly KOed, because of the way they've always been portrayed as really close.


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## Beast (Aug 5, 2016)

Dunno said:


> One example could be how he took all of Luffy's damage in addition to his own at TB and remained standing. Zoro's endurance at that point was way above his captain's. There's also the way Zoro was eager to attack Fujitora after he blew Luffy away and the way Zoro has had better portrayal against several opponents post-TS than Luffy. And he obviously won't get instantly KOed, because of the way they've always been portrayed as really close.


Fighting fodder is not better potrayal and luffy overcame that feat the very next arc, Zoro being eager to fight Fuji doesn't mean anything, sanji went out and actually fought DD but see where that has gotten him. 

Zoro would need to be stronger and more durable than DD to outlast G4 and there is no amount of hype nor potrayal to EVER suggest such nonsense.
This battle is about the given feats we aren't here for what YOU THINK ZORO could do NOW.
Zoro does not have the feats, hype or potrayal to out last G4. Fighting fodder is not better potrayal and I'm still wandering where this so called hype of zoro's is at...
 Because frankly I haven't seen anything in the manga.

Being close to Luffy pre TS is not acceptable as Sanji was pretty close to the both of them and I don't doubt that luffy could currently 1HKO with the given feats right now.


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## Dunno (Aug 5, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Fighting fodder is not better potrayal and luffy overcame that feat the very next arc, Zoro being eager to fight Fuji doesn't mean anything, sanji went out and actually fought DD but see where that has gotten him.
> 
> Zoro would need to be stronger and more durable than DD to outlast G4 and there is no amount of hype nor potrayal to EVER suggest such nonsense.
> *This battle is about the given feats we aren't here for what YOU THINK ZORO could do NOW.*
> ...



Zoro wouldn't have to have a better defense than Doflamingo to tank the whole duration. He wouldn't even have to have better defense than a severely injured Doflamingo. Because G4 is too weak to take down a severely injured Doflamingo, he would just have to have close enough defence to a severely injured Doflamingo to beat Luffy. 

I hope you notice the hypocrisy in the bolded? You writing that you think Luffy could one-shot Zoro adds exactly as much to this debate as if I wrote that Zoro could one-shot Luffy. I obviously wouldn't do that because I don't wank Zoro like you do Luffy.

Zoro has had superior portrayal against every opponent he and Luffy has fought post-TS: Monet, Hody, Hyouzou and Fujitora. The attack he used to defeat Pica had similar DC to KKG and he used a much smaller part of his power than Luffy did. Also, as I wrote in my last post, Zoro won over Luffy with quite a large margin the last time the two were directly compared.


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## Dellinger (Aug 5, 2016)

Zoro's strongest attack does not even come close to KKG.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 5, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Zoro's strongest attack does not even come close to KKG.



I've yet to see Zoro's strongest attack. If you mean the attack he used on fodder pica the difference is not that much.


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## Dellinger (Aug 5, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I've yet to see Zoro's strongest attack. If you mean the attack he used on fodder pica the difference is not that much.


His thousand sword attacks has always been his strongest.This was a fucking ugi aka ultimate attack and it was comparable to EGG.KKG on the other hand not only destroyed spider web and Doflamingo's strongest awakening attack but it also lifted Pica sized worth of rock hundreds of meter up in the air and that was Doflamingo's body hitting the ground,not KKG directly hitting it.KKG is a top tier attack


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## batman22wins (Aug 5, 2016)

Gotta go with Luffy. Only because Oda hasn't showed full powered Zoro yet

Reactions: Like 1


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## batman22wins (Aug 5, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> His thousand sword attacks has always been his strongest.This was a fucking ugi aka ultimate attack and it was comparable to EGG.KKG on the other hand not only destroyed spider web and Doflamingo's strongest awakening attack but it also lifted Pica sized worth of rock hundreds of meter up in the air and that was Doflamingo's body hitting the ground,not KKG directly hitting it.KKG is a top tier attack


We haven't seen Zoro strongest and his tanking ability post timeskip. This is why this thread is useless.


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## barreltheif (Aug 5, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> His thousand sword attacks has always been his strongest.This was a fucking ugi aka ultimate attack and it was comparable to EGG.KKG on the other hand not only destroyed spider web and Doflamingo's strongest awakening attack but it also lifted Pica sized worth of rock hundreds of meter up in the air and that was Doflamingo's body hitting the ground,not KKG directly hitting it.KKG is a top tier attack



Sanzen Sekai is a technique Zoro already had in East Blue. There's a reason why all of his strongest opponents he beat required him to come up with other, stronger attacks. He needed Shishi Sonson to beat Daz Bones, 36 pound cannon to beat Braham, 108 pound cannon to beat Ohm, and Asura to beat Kaku. Sanzen Sekai wouldn't have done the job. It is not his strongest attack, nor is it even close.

Reactions: Like 1


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Aug 5, 2016)

Ashura Zoro = G4
2 eyes Zoro = G5
New World Powerup Zoro = G6


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## Raiden34 (Aug 6, 2016)

batman22wins said:


> Gotta go with Luffy. *Only because Oda hasn't showed full powered Zoro yet*


Like it could be any different, E.Oda isn't an idiot writer who will make a situation like an errand boy / side kick being more powerful than the captain or even equals with.

G4 Luffy stomps.


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## TheWiggian (Aug 6, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Like it could be any different, E.Oda isn't an idiot writer who will make a situation like an errand boy / side kick being more powerful than the captain or even equals with.
> 
> G4 Luffy stomps.



Oda also said: "Don't speak ill of Zoro."

Reactions: Like 1


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## batman22wins (Aug 6, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Like it could be any different, E.Oda isn't an idiot writer who will make a situation like an errand boy / side kick being more powerful than the captain or even equals with.
> 
> G4 Luffy stomps.


Is that the reason Luffy and Zoro fought equally and 2 databooks said they are equal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Muah (Aug 7, 2016)

Luffy is stronger than dofla. Dofla would low diff Zoro. Luffy is stronger which is why  Oda had him beat Dofla. Dofla is the man dont get me wrong but its not like g2 luffy vs lucchi where you can consider g2 as not enough. When luffy fought lucchi he couldnt beat lucchi with G2 he needed a combination of g3 and base and alot of heart  to win. But g4 is way more than enough to beat Dofla.luffy was greatly injured before Dofla even touched him, dofla said it himself. He had been fighting and running around all day. The only reason Luffy even needed to use g4 was because of time contraints. You can say that g2 and 3 luffy was weaker than dofla but the truth is he was holding his own fine and doing minor damage about the same amount or greater that dofla was doing to him.  

King kong has the ability to possibly oneshot dofla anyway. If the fought on punk hazard with noone around it could go either way but my money is on luffy.

Dofla no diffed g3 yes but g3 has always been to slow. Thsts why luffy when hes serious only uses it when the oppurtunity arises. Luffy also had to keep his cool while people all around him were dying. People day g2 didnt have enough punch to hurt dofla but there are plenty of panels where g2 drew blood and im no expert but if blood is being drawn than damage is being done. They even clashed in base with COC and were even. The favors are stacked in dofla corner but g4 is more than enough to turn the tide provided luffy does enough damage to doflamingo before hand.

Anyways Zoro is equal to sanji and dofla no diffed him so Luffy being equals with dofla is enough to atleast low diff Zoro.
G2 and g3 being weak was just plot for luffy to unveil g4. In physical strenght hes stonger than zoro and g2 amplifies that greatly. More than enough to make up for the sword attacks..


THE REAL QUESTION IS WHEN IN THE SERIES HAS BASE LUFFY NOT BEEN STRONGER THAN ZORO? WHY WOULD BASE LUFFY BE WEAKER THAN ZORO?

in enis lobby luffys base was stronger thsn zoro because he could fight Lucchi in leapord form who was more than twice as strong as kaku who zoro coulndt even scratch. Zoro till this day his strongest attack can cleave a mountain but luffy could destroy and islands sized boat with g3. And luffy was throwing stones close to the size of mountains preskip injured. His actual physical base is somewhere around mountain level and his strongest of forms is nearing island splitting. Even if zoro used his strongest attack hes far from king konggun. Zoro gets low diffed and thats inly because hes so resilent.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Typhon (Aug 7, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Sanzen Sekai is a technique Zoro already had in East Blue. There's a reason why all of his strongest opponents he beat required him to come up with other, stronger attacks. He needed Shishi Sonson to beat Daz Bones, 36 pound cannon to beat Braham, 108 pound cannon to beat Ohm, and Asura to beat Kaku. Sanzen Sekai wouldn't have done the job. It is not his strongest attack, nor is it even close.


Did you ignore what he said? Regardless of how long he's had it, It's still his ultimate 3 sword style technique, which he's known for. And those guys didn't require stronger techniques, they required more specialized ones.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 7, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> His thousand sword attacks has always been his strongest.This was a fucking ugi aka ultimate attack and it was comparable to EGG.KKG on the other hand not only destroyed spider web and Doflamingo's strongest awakening attack but it also lifted Pica sized worth of rock hundreds of meter up in the air and that was Doflamingo's body hitting the ground,not KKG directly hitting it.KKG is a top tier attack



 

No pre-skip it was his strongest *Three Sword Style* attack.

This again was Pre-skip. Its certainly not his strongest now i doubt even Ashura is.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Aug 7, 2016)

''i-it's called ougi so it has to be his strongest attack''

bull fucking shit

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Furinji Saiga (Aug 7, 2016)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> ''i-it's called ougi so it has to be his strongest attack''
> 
> bull fucking shit



I remember when people were arguing that the technique he used on the Kraken was his strongest move, or it was Sanzen Sekai because it had the "ougi" in it as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Raiden34 (Aug 7, 2016)

batman22wins said:


> Is that the reason Luffy and Zoro fought equally and 2 databooks said they are equal.


Their ''fighting spirit'' is equal, not their power ...  Only Zoro fanboys would be hilarious to think that Zoro is anywhere near close to Luffy...


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## Freechoice (Aug 7, 2016)

Luffy mid/high diff


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## TheWiggian (Aug 7, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Their ''fighting spirit'' is equal, not their power ...  Only Zoro fanboys would be hilarious to think that Zoro is anywhere near close to Luffy...



Actually they both have a 6 in strenght in the databook and there's no "equal", the databook states that Zoro is up there with Luffy (combat ability) being fucking strong.

--snip--

flaming


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## Raiden34 (Aug 7, 2016)

lol said:


> Luffy mid/high diff


Zoro giving mid-difficulty to G4 Luffy is something almost impossible... Zoro would be a squashed bug just like he was when Fuji has used a nameless gravity attack on him...


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## Dellinger (Aug 7, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> No pre-skip it was his strongest *Three Sword Style* attack.
> 
> This again was Pre-skip. Its certainly not his strongest now i doubt even Ashura is.


I'm talking about daisen sekai not sanzen sekai


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## Kaiser (Aug 7, 2016)

Daisen sekai is the evolution of sanzen sekai just like rengoku onigiri is the evolution of onigiri or shishishisonson to shishisonson. By growing stronger, Zoro upgraded the name of the technique, but even pretimeskip it wasn't his strongest technique. It was the strongest technique of his santoryu style, but he developed a kyutoryu style later on showing even different Asura techniques.

At the moment Zoro is untested in many areas against this level of opponent. His max offensive power is untested. His reaction speed is untested since he has never been blitzed. His endurance is untested and his durability has been tested a little against Fujitora. He is more hype than anything.

We can only rely on portrayal and Oda made sure to give Zoro impressive portrayal comparatively to any opponent he faced including some who gave Luffy few troubles while at the same time holding him back, making you wonder about his full power and with the way things are unfolding it's most likely only in Wano where we'd see his real strength

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Raiden34 (Aug 7, 2016)

Kaiser said:


> His endurance is untested and his durability has been tested a little against Fujitora.



Fuji's nameless gravity attack was strong enough to bring him to his knees....





Kaiser said:


> His reaction speed is untested since he has never been blitzed.





Carrot already blitzed him when he is serious to cut her down.


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## Kaiser (Aug 7, 2016)

He wasn't on his knees because of the gravity. He was coming out of a jump from a hole. Shortly after we see Zoro and besides a bloody lip, is pretty much fine
What Carrot dodged is Zoro's striking speed and that's because Zoro didn't expect that she could fly/change trajectory mid air
And he blocked Carrot's attack around the same moment just fine with a second sword he hadn't even release at the moment he attacked
The thing that surprised him is the electro after-effect during the clash which has nothing to do with reaction speed


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## TheWiggian (Aug 7, 2016)

Kaiser said:


> He wasn't on his knees because of the gravity. He was coming out of a jump from a hole. Shortly after we see Zoro and besides a bloody lip, is pretty much fine
> What Carrot dodged is Zoro's striking speed and that's because Zoro didn't expect that she could fly/change trajectory mid air
> And he blocked Carrot's attack around the same moment just fine with a second sword he hadn't even release at the moment he attacked
> The thing that surprised him is the electro after-effect during the clash which has nothing to do with reaction speed



No reason to reply. He's a hater. Save your time for something better, like cleaning the bath or taking a dump.


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## Raiden34 (Aug 8, 2016)

--snip--

trolling



Kaiser said:


> He wasn't on his knees because of the gravity. He was coming out of a jump from a hole.



He need to take a breath on his knees which shows that Zoro's durability isn't good enough to resist Fuji's nameless attack, did you see Sabo in the same position ?



Kaiser said:


> What Carrot dodged is Zoro's striking speed and that's because Zoro didn't expect that she could fly/change trajectory mid air



Which is a shitty Observation Haki and reaction speed, Zoro was serious there, he wasn't messing around. Just like with Tesoro... Zoro needs better speed to compete with G2 Luffy, not even G4 Luffy.


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## Etherborn (Aug 9, 2016)

Well, Luffy using G4 doesn't automatically make it a high diff fight. G4 Luffy vs. Kuro would still be no diff because Luffy would simply deactivate G4 after the few milliseconds he needs to beat Kuro, which logically would not leave him exhausted if you extrapolate the effects to less than a thousandth of what they were vs. Doflamingo. G4 Luffy vs. Zoro is significantly closer to high diff no matter how you swing it because he's not ending the fight with one Kong Gun.

As to whether G4 Luffy vs. Zoro is high diff...I'd say yes. I'm not sure how starting in G4 is an advantage when it leaves him with less time to take out Zoro whereas he could have at least injured him before he used it otherwise.


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## Nox (Aug 9, 2016)

Based on current showings: G4 Luffy > Law > G2/G3 Luffy >= Zoro. Zoro is getting Low Diffed. Though, if we go based on scaling I'd wager Zoro could very bring him to Mid Diff but lose.


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## Dunno (Aug 10, 2016)

Bambino said:


> I just hope you know religious doesn't imply spiritual basis. Busting nuts at 6:36pm everyday makes me a religious nut buster. However, as I was expecting a joke along the lines of religion I went along with it. While on that subject what I posted is irrefutable. You cannot post panel to refute my claims, hence why I prefaced my statement by reiterating I followed showings (portrayals/feats). Zoro's cut down Pika. Big whoop Luffy smashed him in when needed. Law cut something just as impressive. I'm not basing things on hypotheticals but panel proven material.



G2/3 Luffy has way worse showing than Zoro in every regard. There is no contest. Luffy struggled against Hody, Caesar, Don Chinjao and Hyouzou and even had to run from Monet. And when he attacked Fujitora he got blown away immediately. Zoro one-shot Hody, one-shot Hyouzou, one-shot Monet and the two times he fought Fujitora he held his ground, even though he got caught off-guard one of those times. Also, the DC Zoro has shown is as large as the one Luffy has shown with G4. Add in the fact that Zoro has done all this without using more than a portion of his strength and there's as I said, no contest. Law also has a way better showing than G2/3 Luffy. His slash is equally impressive as KKG. 

The one way that someone could believe that G2/3 Luffy is stronger than Zoro is by basing their reasoning on pure belief based on nothing, which is why it all makes sense.


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## Nox (Aug 10, 2016)

Dunno said:


> G2/3 Luffy has way worse showing than Zoro in every regard. There is no contest. Luffy struggled against Hody, Caesar, Don Chinjao and Hyouzou and even had to run from Monet. And when he attacked Fujitora he got blown away immediately. Zoro one-shot Hody, one-shot Hyouzou, one-shot Monet and the two times he fought Fujitora he held his ground, even though he got caught off-guard one of those times. *Also, the DC Zoro has shown is as large as the one Luffy has shown with G4.* Add in the fact that Zoro has done all this without using more than a portion of his strength and there's as I said, no contest. Law also has a way better showing than G2/3 Luffy. His slash is equally impressive as KKG.
> 
> The one way that someone could believe that G2/3 Luffy is stronger than Zoro is by basing their reasoning on pure belief based on nothing, which is why it all makes sense.



Never argued on Law's standing. Infact I stated he superior to G2/G3. However, I get the feeling your are operating on the premise that Zoro is superior to him and if he (Law) is better then his case is automatic. Nope. Luffy and Zoro's approaches to battle are different. Luffy tests out his enemy whereas Zoro gets straight to the point. This is what creates the allusion of struggling. *Luffy has legitimately struggled against Noah and Doflamingo.* 

He didn't have to let Monet embrace him, or entertain DCJ and his sob stories, dart around CC gasnet & get himself suffocated. His so called struggles are due to him allowing himself to fall into those scenarios and lo and behold more often than not they are plot points. i.e he needs to get captured to showcase Shinokuni (Ceasar), he needs to demonstrate his HH and meet with Momo (Monet), flashback (DCJ). However, this shouldn't be confused as inferiority to Zoro. At the end of the day when he assumed the same mindset as Zoro (defeat the enemy) he proceeds to demolish them utterly and reciprocate the same feats Zoro has. Luffy actually had a fight/scuffle with an Admiral and approached it with the same feeble minded attempts he so often uses. Yet, even in such a situation he not only lasted longer but sustained and came unfazed from significant damage.

I don't want I'm saying to be misconstrued. All I am asserting it on feats that Luffy is *slightly better* than/equal to what Zoro has shown so far. A fight between those two is an extreme diff affair but i'll be inclined to go with Luffy. @bold: Yeah Nah. Zoro's DC is as large as the aftermath of a G4 hit. Majority of the damage of the attack has already been soaked by Doflamingo.


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## Dunno (Aug 10, 2016)

Bambino said:


> Never argued on Law's standing. Infact I stated he superior to G2/G3. However, I get the feeling your are operating on the premise that Zoro is superior to him and if he (Law) is better then his case is automatic. Nope. Luffy and Zoro's approaches to battle are different. Luffy tests out his enemy whereas Zoro gets straight to the point. This is what creates the allusion of struggling. *Luffy has legitimately struggled against Noah and Doflamingo.*
> 
> He didn't have to let Monet embrace him, or entertain DCJ and his sob stories, dart around CC gasnet & get himself suffocated. His so called struggles are due to him allowing himself to fall into those scenarios and lo and behold more often than not they are plot points. i.e he needs to get captured to showcase Shinokuni (Ceasar), he needs to demonstrate his HH and meet with Momo (Monet), flashback (DCJ). However, this shouldn't be confused as inferiority to Zoro. At the end of the day when he assumed the same mindset as Zoro (defeat the enemy) he proceeds to demolish them utterly and reciprocate the same feats Zoro has. Luffy actually had a fight/scuffle with an Admiral and approached it with the same feeble minded attempts he so often uses. Yet, even in such a situation he not only lasted longer but sustained and came unfazed from significant damage.
> 
> I don't want I'm saying to be misconstrued. All I am asserting it on feats that Luffy is *slightly better* than/equal to what Zoro has shown so far. A fight between those two is an extreme diff affair but i'll be inclined to go with Luffy. @bold: Yeah Nah. Zoro's DC is as large as the aftermath of a G4 hit. Majority of the damage of the attack has already been soaked by Doflamingo.



I'm not certain that Zoro is superior to Law. They are pretty much on the same level. They are both superior to Luffy though, since neither of them has the huge amount of detrimental feats that Luffy has. No matter how you sugarcoat it, Luffy takes a lot more time to defeat enemies, takes many more hits in the mean time than Zoro does and ends up much more hurt. He would have died against Hody of all people were it not for the blood transfusion. He didn't want to let Monet embrace him or listen to DCJ's sob stories, but he was too slow to avoid it in the Monet case and too weak to defeat DCJ before he has time to tell it all. 

You can't ignore every single detrimental feat that Luffy has while only counting his one or so good one, his fight against Doflamingo was the outlier, not every other feat post-TS. 

Considering the KKG vs Pica-slash, what lifted Pica in the air was also the aftermath of Zoro's attack. The majority of the attack is directed straight through Pica, while only a slight portion throws him 100 metres or whatever it was into the air. So the aftermath of Zoro's slash was as large as the aftermath of KKG.


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## MrWano (Aug 10, 2016)

Luffy having to land many hits to defeat enemies is nothing new. It's been that way since the beginning. Just like Zoro only needing to land 1-3 hits that actually hurt. Even Sanji has appeared more lethal at times.

The thing is that Luffy has always been inconsistent. Him doing well base against Doflamingo or G2 Fujitora isn't really shocking. He actually had some trouble with Blueno, yet goes on to beat someone 5 times stronger a bit later. Rather weak opponents can react to and take G2 attacks fairly well, yet later it does pretty well against Fujitora and he both matches and hurts Doflamingo in base. The same Doflamingo who then immediately easily dodges a G2 attack. Before someone thinks I'm forgetting Gamma Knife, all of this happened post that attack (Doffy>Luffy). Luffy gets his haki broken by Hody's teeth, yet tanks a barrage of hardened and awakened strings from Doffy.       Wait... Base Luffy > G2 Luffy?!

One can use Hyouzou, Hody (no idea what the issue is here, it was clearly not about Luffy, but about a very important plot point), Caesar/Don Chinjao (both of whose strength are unquantifiable and hyped in their own ways), Monet, etc.. Sure!

But why not mention base Hody reacting to Zoro's flying attack and easily blocking it with a fodder. Or Zoro nearly getting his fellow crew members killed by Monet because he fought so "poorly". Or Zoro needing his special bypass durability technique, as well as Usopp's help to defeat the dragon. Or Zoro spending a large portion of Dressrosa running around not being able to finish his objective on Dressrosa, actually having to get help to do so. I mean, it's black on white. If not for Orlumbus, Zoro would've failed his objective and a ton of people would've gotten killed (well, Fuji was there..)! 

Why are these things not held against Zoro when we talk about his strength? Because it's not representative of what he actually can do when serious and not holding back. Yet for some reason the contrived situations Luffy gets into are always brought forth to downplay him, despite him often obviously not giving it close to his all. Smells like bias to me.

And before someone pulls to the bias card on me, I'll say that I definitely think Zoro is stronger than G2/G3 Luffy. Luffy himself has also become an increasingly annoying character.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Soca (Aug 11, 2016)

stay on topic.


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## batman22wins (Aug 11, 2016)

Anyone discussing carrot vs Zoro is a complete idiot. Zoro would no diff Carrot. Oda was just showing off abilities. Just like when Luffy met Coby again in water 7. He made coby kick him and then dodge his attack. Disscissing any part of that skirmish to make a point is stupid


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## Raiden34 (Aug 11, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Luffy takes a lot more time to defeat enemies, takes many more hits in the mean time than Zoro does and ends up much more hurt. .



The difference is whenever Luffy is serious or not, when he is serious he one-shotted post-TS Bellamy, Hajrudin and Monster Chopper without G4.


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## AsuraCanBeatG4 (Sep 14, 2016)

Zoro wins.

Let me explain why. Zoro is capable of cutting mountains in his regular form. We have seen Luffy's G4 but not Zoro's Asura and we can assume that Asura zoro is capable of much more than mountain cutters. 

G4 Luffy will not take down Zoro. Zoro is an tanking beast and he also has counterattacks that will make G4 Luffy always watch his arms from being cut off. When G4 runs out, Zoro takes it handily.

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## Language of Life (Sep 15, 2016)

Oh please, this just needs to be closed. 
Zoro cannot win; difficulty does not matter, moves or strength do not matter; people matter. One person in fact. 
Luffy will not lose to the man who is only meant for second best. Plus the feats dont substantiate it.
But go ahead and squawk about potential if you want; im sure Asura is going to be amazing when it cuts whatever the fuck its going to cut in half.


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## Virus (Sep 15, 2016)

Luffy rapes

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Sep 15, 2016)

Only current showings? Zoro doesn't seem to have the speed or maneuverability to be able to handle G4. He gets ragdolled. Would probably be like sabo vs burgess, as in zoro shows impressive endurance but is ultimately beaten badly in every other category.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## oHush (Sep 23, 2016)

Nekomamushi said:


> Luffy wins low diff. Zoro could challenge him with a upgraded ashura but going by current feats, Zoro does not stand a chance.


I totally agree. Luffy Wins.


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## Ekkologix (Sep 29, 2016)

Bump this up when Zoro has more feats. Its hard to judge now efficiently but with current showing Luffy should win in couple punches tho Zoro's endurance is actually pretty op.

I'd also like to ask about the intel level. If Zoro knows Luffy can run out of time maybe he'd try stalling if thats possible by going in full defensive and evasive. Sill favoring Luffy tho.


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## Dunno (Sep 29, 2016)

Luffy hasn't shown the feats to put Zoro down within the time limit. Zoro hasn't shown the feats to outlast the time limit. Going solely by current feats, the outcome of this match is impossible to predict.


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## Etherborn (Sep 29, 2016)

Actually, based on current feats, Luffy eats Zoro. Low diff, gg easy.

There's also the fact that he wins now even if Zoro does manage to outlast. Can we finally trash this thread yo?


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## Dunno (Sep 29, 2016)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> Actually, based on current feats, Luffy eats Zoro. Low diff, gg easy.
> 
> There's also the fact that he wins now even if Zoro does manage to outlast. Can we finally trash this thread yo?



You've got it wrong. If you want to base your conclusion on current feats, you can't mindlessly compare the feats straight up without consideration for the effort the characters have exerted. You also can't make up feats that don't exist. Zoro has shown no feats that put him below a severely injured Doflamingo when it comes to defensive capabilites. Therefore, Luffy's feat of being relatively close to beating an injured Doflamingo within the time limit of G4 doesn't in any way show that he can do the same to Zoro. It basically comes down to the fact that most of Zoro's capabilities haven't been shown as of this moment, and thus, whatever feat Luffy has, can't, by current feats, be enough to beat him. Not to mention that even if Zoro had had to use 100% to showcase the feats he has, it still wouldn't even be close to a low diff fight. 

Or would you say that Luffy, by current feats, beats Kong and Dragon as well? Because he has showcased much "better" feats when it comes to attacking power, Haki, defense, speed, endurance and pretty much everything else as well.


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## Akira1993 (Sep 30, 2016)

By portrayal, Luffy
By feats, Luffy
By title, Luffy
By dream and ambition, Luffy

Zorro can't even compete here.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## giantbiceps (Sep 30, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> By portrayal, Luffy
> By feats, Luffy
> By title, Luffy
> By dream and ambition, Luffy
> ...



/Thread


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## Beast (Oct 1, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Luffy hasn't shown the feats to put Zoro down within the time limit. Zoro hasn't shown the feats to outlast the time limit.


Bruh you're going to hell for causing such confusion.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 1, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Bruh you're going to hell for causing such confusion.



He´s saying that you can´t judge how a fight will play out without seeing the full skillset of both parties which is true. This is exactly the same as back then when everyone was saying Luffy doesn´t have the necessary power to solo Doflamingo and then G4 came out and those same guys ate their words. 

Zoro probably won´t be stronger than Luffy even while going all out. At most equal or nigh-equal but denying the possibility for the latter 2 options is just stupid if you don´t know the exact strength limit of Zoro.


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## barreltheif (Oct 1, 2016)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> He´s saying that you can´t judge how a fight will play out without seeing the full skillset of both parties which is true.



Not quite. He's saying that you can't judge how a fight will go based only on feats without seeing the full skillset of both parties. You can still powerscale and use hype and portrayal.



> This is exactly the same as back then when everyone was saying Luffy doesn´t have the necessary power to solo Doflamingo and then G4 came out and those same guys ate their words.



Doflamingo (+ 2 fodder) defeated Luffy+Law together.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 1, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Not quite. He's saying that you can't judge how a fight will go based only on feats without seeing the full skillset of both parties. You can still powerscale and use hype and portrayal.



True but we don´t need to nitpick now. The point remains the same.




> Doflamingo (+ 2 fodder) defeated Luffy+Law together.



Skirmishes are not fights. The fight ended with Luffy slamming Doflamingo into the ground and no sooner. Besides I said Luffy will show the capability to win this on his own and in the end he did.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## barreltheif (Oct 1, 2016)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> True but we don´t need to nitpick now. The point remains the same.
> 
> Skirmishes are not fights. The fight ended with Luffy slamming Doflamingo into the ground and no sooner. Besides I said Luffy will show the capability to win this on his own and in the end he did.



I have no idea what you're talking about. Luffy+Law vs Doflamingo wasn't a skirmish. They lost to Doffy, and Gatz and the others had to save Luffy and stall Doffy while Luffy rested. Luffy does not have the capability to beat Doffy on his own.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pocalypse (Oct 1, 2016)

Thread should be locked because of rape threads. 

Only in Zoro fans' dreams is Zoro close to G4, equal to it or above it meaning it's fanfiction. Let's get a few things straight:

G4 Luffy > Zoro
Doflamingo > Zoro
Cracker > Zoro


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## Quipchaque (Oct 1, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about. Luffy+Law vs Doflamingo wasn't a skirmish. They lost to Doffy, and Gatz and the others had to save Luffy and stall Doffy while Luffy rested. Luffy does not have the capability to beat Doffy on his own.



You are grasping for a lot of straws here. Battles do not end just because you get help. They end when one of the fighters dies or is unconscious and incapable to come back. None of this was the case. Fact remains that G4 Luffy is superior to Doflamingo and capable to win. It´s not even debatable. Imagine Luffy used KKG right of the bat... or G4 together with Law. Or if he attacked Doffy while he was lying there after crashing into the mountain. Think about that for a moment. Tho either way I won´t debate this any further. I´m not invested enough in this matter for walls of text and I don´t feel the need to convince you.


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## barreltheif (Oct 1, 2016)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You are grasping for a lot of straws here. Battles do not end just because you get help. They end when one of the fighters dies or is unconscious and incapable to come back. None of this was the case. Fact remains that G4 Luffy is superior to Doflamingo and capable to win. It´s not even debatable. Imagine Luffy used KKG right of the bat... or G4 together with Law. Or if he attacked Doffy while he was lying there after crashing into the mountain. Think about that for a moment. Tho either way I won´t debate this any further. I´m not invested enough in this matter for walls of text and I don´t feel the need to convince you.



Battles end if one of the fighters is completely incapable of continuing to fight and needs to be protected by people external to the fight. G4 Luffy is clearly inferior to Doflamingo since Doflamingo beat him.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 2, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Battles end if one of the fighters is completely incapable of continuing to fight and needs to be protected by people external to the fight. G4 Luffy is clearly inferior to Doflamingo since Doflamingo beat him.



Can you show me the page on which you found those rulings for battles?
The fight was clearly going on just a few chapters later and ended with Doffy lying on the ground and afterwards in chains. That´s not what we define as the winner. Just let it go.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 2, 2016)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> The fight was clearly going on just a few chapters later and ended with Doffy lying on the ground and afterwards in chains. That´s not what we define as the winner.


Oh, Luffy "won" in the end alright. But it was made painfully clear that he couldn't have done it on his own when an organ fried Doflamingo outlasted G4, and Luffy was relying on others so that he could recover, something that wouldn't have happened if he had been alone.

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## Quipchaque (Oct 2, 2016)

Jigen said:


> Oh, Luffy "won" in the end alright. But it was made painfully clear that he couldn't have done it on his own when an organ fried Doflamingo outlasted G4, and Luffy was relying on others so that he could recover, something that wouldn't have happened if he had been alone.



Yep. That´s the thing tho. He has to _outlast_ G4. He can´t compete with it. And even that only worked cause PIS made Luffy waste time instead of charging right at Doflamingo who pretended to be dead. Or even better just use KKG earlier. Anyway the point is if Luffy can use an upgrade to close the gap to Doflamingo then Zoro can potentially do the same against Luffy. Doesn´t have to be the case but it´s possible. Period.


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## Dellinger (Oct 2, 2016)

I wonder what would happen if Luffy used KKG instead of Leo Bazooka on Doflamingo 

Again with the fried crap.Author's intention> our opinion.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 2, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> I wonder what would have if Luffy used KKG instead of Leo Bazooka on Doflamingo
> 
> Again with the fried crap.Author's intention> our opinion.



 

Authors attention. His intention was for laws ultimate attack to have a effect on the battle. Not have zero effect, which the author has luffy point out and his drop in performance.


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## Dellinger (Oct 2, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Authors attention. His intention was for laws ultimate attack to have a effect on the battle. Not have zero effect, which the author has luffy point out and his drop in performance.


Yes and Doflamingo said that Luffy has weakened quite a bit.You know the same shit that Luffy said to Doflamingo.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 2, 2016)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> And even that only worked cause PIS made Luffy waste time instead of charging right at Doflamingo who pretended to be dead. Or even better just use KKG earlier.





White Hawk said:


> I wonder what would happen if Luffy used KKG instead of Leo Bazooka on Doflamingo


I wonder what would have happened if Doflamingo hadn't been hit so hard with PIS?
I wonder what would have happened if Luffy had fought a fresh Doflamingo without Law's help?
I wonder what would have happened to Luffy if the gladiators hadn't stepped in after G4 ran out the first time?



Doflamingo > Dressrosa Luffy.

OT: Luffy pretty obviously wins...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 2, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Yes and Doflamingo said that Luffy has weakened quite a bit.You know the same shit that Luffy said to Doflamingo.



Yea luffy was hurt. 

Being hurt does not mean they were equally hurt though. Two guys calling each other ugly does not make them equally ugly.


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## Dellinger (Oct 2, 2016)

Jigen said:


> I wonder what would have happened if Doflamingo hadn't been hit so hard with PIS?
> I wonder what would have happened if Luffy had fought a fresh Doflamingo without Law's help?
> I wonder what would have happened to Luffy if the gladiators hadn't stepped in after G4 ran out the first time?
> 
> ...



PIS hurt Luffy is this fight as much as Doflamingo

No gear Stacking which for some dumb reason Oda has forgot.

Not using the same kind of defense he was using against Fujitora




I also wonder what would happen if Luffy fought fresh against Doflamingo.Longer G4 duration and all that

I wonder what would happen if Luffy didn't stand there like an idiot after Leo Bazooka chatting with the random fodders instead of paying attention to Doflamingo,or you know if he used KKG instead of Leo Bazooka.Doflamingo would probably have lost in that moment


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## Dellinger (Oct 2, 2016)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Yea luffy was hurt.
> 
> Being hurt does not mean they were equally hurt though. Two guys calling each other ugly does not make them equally ugly.


Given the severity of the injury you guys think Doflamingo sustained,he would be dead after he got knocked unconscious.He wasn't.I guess it wasn't as severe as you guys want it to be.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Oct 2, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Given the severity of the injury you guys think Doflamingo sustained,he would be dead after he got knocked unconscious.He wasn't.I guess it wasn't as severe as you guys want it to be.



whitebeard could walk around with half a brain and internals pumped with lava. 

And doflamingo got treatment, since he was all bandaged up later. 

You don't have to be dead to be in bad shape, especially true at higher levels.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Dellinger (Oct 2, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> whitebeard could walk around with half a brain and internals pumped with lava.
> 
> And doflamingo got treatment, since he was all bandaged up later.
> 
> You don't have to be dead to be in bad shape, especially true at higher levels.


WB was a walking corpse that ultimately gave in to his injuries unless you think that WB would survive with half his head off.

Also Doflamingo is in no way comparable to WB so that is a mute point.You are comparing the strongest man in the world and the so called ruler of the seas against Doflamingo who is just an ant compared to him.

Also Doflamingo probably repaired his organs real fast as he said he was doing.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Oct 2, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> WB was a walking corpse that ultimately gave in to his injuries unless you think that WB would survive with half his head off.
> 
> Also Doflamingo is in no way comparable to WB so that is a mute point.You are comparing the strongest man in the world and the so called ruler of the seas against Doflamingo who is just an ant compared to him.
> 
> ...



And losing your brain, being pumped full of magma, being chroncally ill hooked onto machines, getting stabbed and shot at over a 100 times is also nothing compared to gamma knife. I think that's a fair trade off to Doflamingo being nothing compared to WB. 

My point simply was that at higher levels, you're not going to die off easily or right away.  

He said it was not healing, btw. If you repair a broken jar with   glue, it's not going to be even close to it's original strength.  He just put a cast on a broken arm so to speak by stitching it up to fight for longer instead of dying out while lying on the ground.

Probably got stitched up again internally after getting knocked unconscious, indicated by all the bandages by the med staff.


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## Dellinger (Oct 2, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> And losing your brain, being pumped full of magma, being chroncally ill hooked onto machines, getting stabbed and shot at over a 100 times is also nothing compared to gamma knife. I think that's a fair trade off to Doflamingo being nothing compared to WB.
> 
> My point simply was that at higher levels, you're not going to die off easily or right away.
> 
> ...


Gamma Knife was not the only damage Doflamingo sustained.G4 beat the crap out of him to the point that he was barely walking after Leo Bazooka and KKG was just overkill.

Also Doflamingo certainly didn't look like he was close to dying some time after GK like WB was after Akainu took half his head.So yes GK didn't do as much damage as you guys are claiming.There was no real decline to his performance nor did he seem like a walking corpse


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Oct 2, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Gamma Knife was not the only damage Doflamingo sustained.G4 beat the crap out of him to the point that he was barely walking after Leo Bazooka and KKG was just overkill.
> 
> Also Doflamingo certainly didn't look like he was close to dying some time after GK like WB was after Akainu took half his head.So yes GK didn't do as much damage as you guys are claiming.There was no real decline to his performance nor did he seem like a walking corpse



Right after Akainu took wb's head off WB cracked the island taking akainu out and then even managed to take Blackbeard down, before his crew went all out on WB.  Not sure what a walking corpse means to you, but that isn't it.


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## Dellinger (Oct 2, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Right after Akainu took wb's head off WB cracked the island taking akainu out and then even managed to take Blackbeard down, before his crew went all out on WB.  Not sure what a walking corpse means to you, but that isn't it.


Are you kidding me ? How was WB not a walking corpse ? Pulling those fears means nothing,Luffy did his strongest attack and fell unconscious after a few moments.Many characters in OP pull off incredible feats even while being in a really bad condition.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Oct 2, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Are you kidding me ? How was WB not a walking corpse ? Pulling those fears means nothing,Luffy did his strongest attack and fell unconscious after a few moments.Many characters in OP pull off incredible feats even while being in a really bad condition.



Did WB fall unconscious after doing his strongest attack?

Did WB have a way to prolong his life or consciousness like Doffy did with his strings?

It took a battalion of Level 6 members, BB's crew and BB himself attacking, including Shiliew all at once to finally kill WB, and even then, before he died he gave a speech.

And yes, Doffy's perfomance was affected. He could barely take Base luffy and was getting beaten up by him.


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## Dellinger (Oct 2, 2016)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Did WB fall unconscious after doing his strongest attack?


No he didn't.Hardly matters because all that was needed was one final push for him to die.



> Did WB have a way to prolong his life or consciousness like Doffy did with his strings?


Is this a joke ? Did Doflamingo gave you the impression of someone close to death after he repaired his organs yes or no ? Because WB clearly gave the impression of someone close to death after his head was burned.



> It took a battalion of Level 6 members, BB's crew and BB himself attacking, including Shiliew all at once to finally kill WB, and even then, before he died he gave a speech.


Yes and by your logic Doflamingo took as much damage and didn't die after KKG.How does that even make sense ? Also didn't know that most marines soldiers are top tier doctors that can fix destroyed organs according to you.


> And yes, Doffy's perfomance was affected. He could barely take Base luffy and was getting beaten up by him.


Doflamingo was laughing his ass off jumping around like a maniac.He was not heavily breathing like WB did nor was he trembling.

He could barely take base Luffy yet goes ahead and takes an Eagle Bazooka saying that Luffys attacks lack power.Yes that makes a lot of sense


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## Muah (Oct 2, 2016)

Kong gun sent dofla flying threw half the city. Dofla who is many times stronger than zoro. G4 potentially one shots no wasy zoro can take more than two. Kimg kong gun would legitametly kill zoro.

This is common sense.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Oct 2, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> No he didn't.Hardly matters because all that was needed was one final push for him to die.
> 
> 
> Is this a joke ? Did Doflamingo gave you the impression of someone close to death after he repaired his organs yes or no ? Because WB clearly gave the impression of someone close to death after his head was burned.



No, not really. But, my point is that you don't have to be on death row to be in bad shape. And since he got brought back from the brink of death, to prolong his life, doesn't make a case here.



> Yes and by your logic Doflamingo took as much damage and didn't die after KKG.How does that even make sense ?



Immediate medical care. And no, I he didn't take nearly as much damage as WB did. Even if your organs don't work, there are ways to keep one alive and stable. 



> Also didn't know that most marines soldiers are top tier doctors that can fix destroyed organs according to you.



If an admiral is there, you best believe only the best docs would also be there. After all, wouldn't want your biggest gun getting broken, yes? Not to mention, 3 days later, Sengoku and Tsuru showed up, probably with even better doctors. A person can be kept stable for a while under life support. Keep the vitals intact, and supplement the functions of the damaged organs until they can be healed and treated. 



> Doflamingo was laughing his ass off jumping around like a maniac.He was not heavily breathing like WB did nor was he trembling.



Whitebeard wasn't trembling either. Only started trembling when he was about to die, and was giving the speech.




> He could barely take base Luffy yet goes ahead and takes an Eagle Bazooka saying that Luffys attacks lack power.Yes that makes a lot of sense



Non sequitur. Saying luffy's attack lacks power has no bearing on Doffy's ability to spar, they measure two different stats.

For example, whitebeard couldn't parry any attacks, even took squard's attack and got punked hand to hand with kizaru and aokiji, even though he could parry ace in his sleep earlier when he was healthy. Despite this, WB was still a complete monster in terms of endurance.So even though both stats were affected, one was clearly much more visibly affected.

By your logic, he should've died from squard's stab wound.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 3, 2016)

Jigen said:


> I wonder what would have happened if Doflamingo hadn't been hit so hard with PIS?
> I wonder what would have happened if Luffy had fought a fresh Doflamingo without Law's help?
> I wonder what would have happened to Luffy if the gladiators hadn't stepped in after G4 ran out the first time?
> 
> ...



Nothing of importance that would have changed that Doflamingo is inferior to G4 Luffy. There was no PIS in Luffy´s favor at that point in the battle nor would Doflamingo last longer against a straight up serious G4 Luffy. The attacks were way too devastating. Let me just ask you this: How many hits exactly did Doflamingo land on Luffy? Did he even inflict damage? Was he able to block and tank the strongest attacks? No.

Listen Doflamingo is my 3. favourite character after Zoro and Mihawk among many others but you gotta be really blind to believe that Doflamingo is superior to G4 Luffy as a seperate mode. His only saving grace is that Doflamingo can survive as long as Luffy takes it easy and until he ran out of haki. That however means -as you said- Doflamingo > Dressrosa Luffy overall. By no means does that mean Doflamingo > G4 Luffy. That is just nonsense. The battle was way too one-sided for such as spinned around conclusion. If you solely judge a battle by surviving it long enough then by feats Marco>everyone bar Blackbeard.

Also stop ignoring the fact that Luffy was very injured as well so it influenced his performance too. Not that it matters to my point. The only reason I even made the comparison is to prove that a power-up can make a lot of difference hence why it is not fair to compare for example current Zoro to G4 Luffy, given that we know there is still a power-up coming for one of them.


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## barreltheif (Oct 3, 2016)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Nothing of importance that would have changed that Doflamingo is inferior to G4 Luffy. There was no PIS in Luffy´s favor at that point in the battle nor would Doflamingo last longer against a straight up serious G4 Luffy. The attacks were way too devastating. Let me just ask you this: How many hits exactly did Doflamingo land on Luffy? Did he even inflict damage? Was he able to block and tank the strongest attacks? No.
> 
> Listen Doflamingo is my 3. favourite character after Zoro and Mihawk among many others but you gotta be really blind to believe that Doflamingo is superior to G4 Luffy as a seperate mode. His only saving grace is that Doflamingo can survive as long as Luffy takes it easy and until he ran out of haki. That however means -as you said- Doflamingo > Dressrosa Luffy overall. By no means does that mean Doflamingo > G4 Luffy. That is just nonsense. The battle was way too one-sided for such as spinned around conclusion. If you solely judge a battle by surviving it long enough then by feats Marco>everyone bar Blackbeard.
> 
> Also stop ignoring the fact that Luffy was very injured as well so it influenced his performance too. Not that it matters to my point. The only reason I even made the comparison is to prove that a power-up can make a lot of difference hence why it is not fair to compare for example current Zoro to G4 Luffy, given that we know there is still a power-up coming for one of them.



Doflamingo is stronger than G4 Luffy. This is not debatable. If they fought, Doflamingo would beat Luffy 10/10 times by outlasting G4.
Luffy was not "very injured" when he fought Doflamingo. What do you even think severely injured Luffy? Getting punched by Bellamy? Luffy is not that weak. I think you're getting confused because Doflamingo tried to taunt Luffy by saying that he was "weakened".

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## GrizzlyClaws (Oct 3, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> I wonder what would happen if Luffy didn't stand there like an idiot after Leo Bazooka chatting with the random fodders instead of paying attention to Doflamingo,or you know if he used KKG instead of Leo Bazooka.Doflamingo would probably have lost in that moment



This is always getting overlooked (I guess purposely).
Luffy had all means he needed to finish Doflamingo off with one use of G4. I'm not saying a fresh Luffy would necessarily beat a fresh Doflamingo, but in whatever condition both these guys were when they fought, Luffy was the stronger person. Oda made a point by having Luffy waste several pages instead of finishing Doflamingo off for good.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 3, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Doflamingo is stronger than G4 Luffy. This is not debatable. If they fought, Doflamingo would beat Luffy 10/10 times by outlasting G4.
> Luffy was not "very injured" when he fought Doflamingo. What do you even think severely injured Luffy? Getting punched by Bellamy? Luffy is not that weak. I think you're getting confused because Doflamingo tried to taunt Luffy by saying that he was "weakened".



It´s a matter of perception I suppose. I don´t consider it a win for Doflamingo or view him as superior if he has to wait for G4 to disappear to stand any chance. He does defeat Luffy this way but he doesn´t prove himself as stronger against Luffy´s trump card. Regardless it does not matter. I can only recite what I said in my last post:



DiscoZoro20 said:


> The only reason I even made the comparison is to prove that a power-up can make a lot of difference hence why it is not fair to compare for example current Zoro to G4 Luffy, given that we know there is still a power-up coming for one of them.



That´s what this is all about. We can surely agree that whether you consider Doflamingo superior or Luffy, the point quoted here remains fact. So I don´t know why it matters.


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## Beast (Oct 3, 2016)

I would like to remind people that we do not go off imaginary feats. I still don't think Sanji has gone all out but I doubt anyone here is willing to make an argument about Sanji having a turn at G4 other than to clarify it's nothing more than a stomp.


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## Dunno (Oct 3, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> I would like to remind people that we do not go off imaginary feats. I still don't think Sanji has gone all out but I doubt anyone here is willing to make an argument about Sanji having a turn at G4 other than to clarify it's nothing more than a stomp.



I am. Sanji wouldn't get stomped by G4. He would definitely lose, but it wouldn't be a stomp.


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## zoro (Oct 3, 2016)

Yeah, it'd be worse than a stomp. Featwise, of course. By the end of the arc that should change


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## Beast (Oct 4, 2016)

Dunno said:


> I am. Sanji wouldn't get stomped by G4. He would definitely lose, but it wouldn't be a stomp.


A stomp would be putting it lightly.


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## Dunno (Oct 4, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> A stomp would be putting it lightly.



Nope. If they actually fought, Sanji would put up a good fight. Looking at feats solely is stupid.


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## Yuki (Oct 4, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Nope. If they actually fought, Sanji would put up a good fight. Looking at feats solely is stupid.



The Zorotards would agree with you, only when it comes to Zoro though of course.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Oct 4, 2016)

This would be Sanji after a single *Kong Gun*:


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## Dunno (Oct 4, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> The Zorotards would agree with you, only when it comes to Zoro though of course.


Everyone should agree with me. There's no way Luffy can stomp Sanji. That would be contradictory to the way they've been portrayed throughout the whole manga. Sanji might not have very impressive feats at the moment, but that could have been said about Luffy all the way up until the G4 reveal as well. Zoro actually has the feats to content with Luffy, on top of the overarching theme of the M3 dynamic, so he's got all of his bases covered.


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## Yuki (Oct 4, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Everyone should agree with me. There's no way Luffy can stomp Sanji. That would be contradictory to the way they've been portrayed throughout the whole manga. Sanji might not have very impressive feats at the moment, but that could have been said about Luffy all the way up until the G4 reveal as well. Zoro actually has the feats to content with Luffy, on top of the overarching theme of the M3 dynamic, so he's got all of his bases covered.



Maybe, just maybe, after the time skip SHIT CHANGED! You know... like shit changes with any god damn time skip of every single fking manga since the beginning of fking timeskips!

Nothing ever EVER stay's the same after a time skip, especially with main character and those that WERE close to him. >_>

In fact, what does happen, is the gap that exited with a main character and secondary main character... is the gap fking grows. >_>

In literally every work of fking fiction... EVER!

Of courser there is always going to be that person that says nothing changed, of course there will always be those people that say stuff did change, but not when it comes to their favorite character.

And those people have been, are and always will be... guess what? Yep! *WRONG!*


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## Dunno (Oct 4, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Maybe, just maybe, after the time skip SHIT CHANGED! You know... like shit changes with any god damn time skip of every single fking manga since the beginning of fking timeskips!
> 
> Nothing ever EVER stay's the same after a time skip, especially with main character and those that WERE close to him. >_>
> 
> ...


Some things change. Some things stay the same. Some examples from similar mangas where the MC didn't pull away from his closest competitors would be Goku - Vegeta, Naruto - Sasuke and Ichigo - Kenpachi/Byakuya/whatever other captains he beat who then became as strong as or stronger than him again after various timeskips. 

Somtimes things change, but you shouldn't assume that they do just because you thing that they should. Luffy hasn't shown that he's pulled away from Zoro yet,  so there's no reason to believe that he has. You could argue that he's pulled away from Sanji because of feats, but I don't think that is the case. If, after this arc, Sanji's feats are still lacking, then I would reconsider my standpoint, but for the moment, I still think he's relatively close to his captain.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## GrizzlyClaws (Oct 4, 2016)

The absolute gap could have grown, but not necessarily the relative one.


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## Yuki (Oct 4, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Some things change. Some things stay the same. Some examples from similar mangas where the MC didn't pull away from his closest competitors would be Goku - Vegeta, Naruto - Sasuke and Ichigo - Kenpachi/Byakuya/whatever other captains he beat who then became as strong as or stronger than him again after various timeskips.
> 
> Somtimes things change, but you shouldn't assume that they do just because you thing that they should. Luffy hasn't shown that he's pulled away from Zoro yet,  so there's no reason to believe that he has. You could argue that he's pulled away from Sanji because of feats, but I don't think that is the case. If, after this arc, Sanji's feats are still lacking, then I would reconsider my standpoint, but for the moment, I still think he's relatively close to his captain.



Goku and Vegeta not grown apart?  Did you read DBZ by any chance?

Sorry to tell you this, but at the start Vegeta was stronger than Goku. Then Goku got stronger and guess what? STAYED stronger.

In the Buu arc the difference between Goku and Vegeta was on the level of the difference between Vegeta and Piccolo. 

Naruto and Sasuke? Sasuke started off far stronger than Naruto. After that Naruto created a huge gap that only closed when the sage of the six paths intervened. once again putting them on the same level. I don't see any god like character coming down and doing the same for Zoro and Sanji. 

Please, just please go into the Naruto Section and put EMS Sasuke up against Nine Tails Naruto and see how much you get laughed at.

Ichigo and Bleach overall is inconsistent as fk... It's known that shinigami get stronger over centuries not over night like Ichigo does. Yet Kenpachi who lost to base Ichigo beat someone stronger than Grim who was = with Masked, Bankai Ichigo in his released form. What makes it even more funny is by the end of the fight it was a complete and utter fking stomp.

Bleach is not consistent enough with it's power levels to count for shit.

Even then, Dangai Ichigo >>>>> All of them put together.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Seraphoenix (Oct 4, 2016)

We saw what happened to Sanji when he encountered Dofla. The fight lasted 15 seconds before Law had to intervene to save Sanji.

G2/3 Luffy was at least hanging with Dofla. We all saw what happened when he went G4 though. 

Luffy would stomp Sanji and Zoro at the same time pending better feats.


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## Etherborn (Oct 4, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Goku and Vegeta not grown apart?  Did you read DBZ by any chance?
> 
> Sorry to tell you this, but at the start Vegeta was stronger than Goku. Then Goku got stronger and guess what? STAYED stronger.
> 
> ...



Even then Sausage needed to enslave the fuck out of the tailed beasts to keep up. 

RIP Buu arc Vegeta.


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## Yuki (Oct 4, 2016)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> Even then Sausage needed to enslave the fuck out of the tailed beasts to keep up.
> 
> RIP Buu arc Vegeta.



Lol yup.

RIP.


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## Dunno (Oct 4, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Goku and Vegeta not grown apart?  Did you read DBZ by any chance?
> 
> Sorry to tell you this, but at the start Vegeta was stronger than Goku. Then Goku got stronger and guess what? STAYED stronger.
> 
> ...



Well, yeah. Vegeta was obviously stronger than Goku at the beginning, but after their fight, Goku had surpassed him and the gap didn't really grow. The difference between the two on Namek was definitely larger than the during the Buu arc. Vegeta was doing much better against Buu than he did against Freezer while Goku on the other hand was doing worse (He needed the power of a lot of people do defeat Buu with a spirit bomb, but was able to defeat Freezer on his own). 

I haven't read the last chapters of Naruto, so I have no idea of how the Kaguya fight plays out, or what power-up they get at that time, but up to that point, the difference between the two isn't really growing larger, it's fluctuating but not always in Naruto's favour. From the Chuunin exams and up until I stopped reading, they were quite close, with Naruto being stronger some of the time and Sasuke at other times. What happens in the very last fight has got nothing to do with how the manga handles time skips, so it's quite irrelevant in this discussion. 

Also, what people on this forum think isn't really an indication of what is true. 

And Bleach is just another example of a manga where the MC doesn't necessarily outgrow everyone else during time skips. Kenpachi grew more than Ichigo during the time skip between the Rescue Rukia arc and the Whatever-Aizen's-Place-is-Called arc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yuki (Oct 4, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Well, yeah. Vegeta was obviously stronger than Goku at the beginning, but after their fight, Goku had surpassed him and the gap didn't really grow. The difference between the two on Namek was definitely larger than the during the Buu arc. Vegeta was doing much better against Buu than he did against Freezer while Goku on the other hand was doing worse (He needed the power of a lot of people do defeat Buu with a spirit bomb, but was able to defeat Freezer on his own).
> 
> I haven't read the last chapters of Naruto, so I have no idea of how the Kaguya fight plays out, or what power-up they get at that time, but up to that point, the difference between the two isn't really growing larger, it's fluctuating but not always in Naruto's favour. From the Chuunin exams and up until I stopped reading, they were quite close, with Naruto being stronger some of the time and Sasuke at other times. What happens in the very last fight has got nothing to do with how the manga handles time skips, so it's quite irrelevant in this discussion.
> 
> ...



No, Goku was 3x stronger than Vegeta in the Freeza arc, but was 8x stronger in the Buu arc. No, i don't count SSJ as Vegeta got it later and guess what? He can't have SSJ3. Why? Because of his nature, he just simply can't transform into a SSJ3, nor can Gohan. They both each lack a certain aspect that the other has to transform. Aspects that both Trunks and Goten lack also, which is why Gotanks can go SSJ3 but Goten and Trunks cannot. The fusion legit fills in the aspects they miss individually.

I know this because the Majin power up was an apparent two times multiplayer like SSJ2. And SSJ3 is a 4x Multiplier. If SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta were really =, then SSJ3 Goku was legit 8x stronger than Vegeta at his maximum power. Also, Vegeta doing anything to Buu is pure anime filler, check out the manga. Vegeta got wrecked from start to finish. While Goku was actually stronger at the start of the fight. Goku didn't fight Buu without SSJ3 either.

>_> No, the power of Naruto and Sasuke never even once fluctuated. Sasuke was always stronger until Naruto surpassed him. But when Naruto did surpass him it was by a fk huge margin, one so huge that the writer literally needed to give both Naruto and Sasuke a power up that he never meant for them to not only beat the final villain, but to make their own powers even out. Yes, even the writer him self understood his error in not only making Madara too strong, but making Naruto too strong as well. Yes, all this was confirmed by Kishi him self. He legit had no idea how Sasuke was going to fight Naruto or how they were even going to beat Madara... then he goes and creates an even stronger villain... wait what? Pssst, she lacked Madara's healing and self regaining chakra powers. Yea, Madara could heal from anything and his chakra was virtually unlimited... Did i mention there were 5 of them? xD OP is OP

As for Bleach, no he really did not get stronger over the time skip. >_> Maybe you missed the part where i said IT IS CANON! That shinigami get stronger over centuries and not over night. *CENTURIES!* >_> Kenpachi is a little different as it is said he got stronger whenever he lost a fight, but not by such a fking ridiculous margin, it's even worse with Byakuya as he didn't have said power up to help him. Bleach cannot be used for anything when it comes to power scaling. it's worse than Fairy Tail in that regard.

Using Bleach for a power scaling example is like using Hunter x Hunter for how a weakly manga publishes. When was the last chapter again?


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 4, 2016)

@Gyro 
thread is about other series now, think it's finished

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Deleted member 45015 (Oct 4, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Well, yeah. Vegeta was obviously stronger than Goku at the beginning, *but after their fight, Goku had surpassed him and the gap didn't really grow. The difference between the two on Namek was definitely larger than the during the Buu arc. *Vegeta was doing much better against Buu than he did against Freezer while Goku on the other hand was doing worse (He needed the power of a lot of people do defeat Buu with a spirit bomb, but was able to defeat Freezer on his own).



Did you even read the Manga or watch the Anime? 

Goku on Namek was keeping pace with Final Form Freeza whilst Vegeta at his best on Namek was beaten like a bitch by the same Freeza who was literally just taking the piss out of him. Then Goku became a Super Saiyan and was significantly ahead of Vegeta even more.

The difference between Goku and Vegeta was _so great_ during the Buu Saga that Vegeta _literally _gave himself over to Babidi for the Majin power-up _because he knew his power was inferior to Goku's even after seven years training_. Cue the Majin Vegeta and Goku fight where they're even...

...and Goku held back the fact he could go Super Saiyan 3 so he didn't cause Vegeta to finally crack and go insane. Even after the fact Vegeta was pissed at Goku because by withholding SSJ3 he [Goku] made Vegeta think he had a legitimate shot at winning _when he never did_. 

The only time Vegeta was noted as being stronger than Goku aside from his first appearance was when Goku was dying from the heart virus and it was speculated that he _might_ be stronger. Or when he emerged from the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and Goku hadn't finished his training yet. Apart from that the series _clearly _positioned Goku as a cut above Vegeta to the point that in the end Vegeta openly admitted inferiority.

Vegeta got thrashed any time he fought Buu, regardless of form. 

Goku either held back from going all out against Kid Buu to "let Vegeta have his turn" or was too exhausted to maximise his power due to being back in a living body and SSJ3 being _so taxing_.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## Intus Legere (Oct 4, 2016)

About Dragon Ball: CMPope and Juvia, you guys are crazy. Dunno is correct about Vegeta and Goku.



Juvia. said:


> Goku and Vegeta not grown apart?  Did you read DBZ by any chance?



They didn't grow apart.

And, you know, no one can read DBZ. DBZ is not a manga.



> Sorry to tell you this, but at the start Vegeta was stronger than Goku. Then Goku got stronger and guess what? STAYED stronger.



Except Vegeta initially rivalled and momentarily surpassed Goku during the Cell Saga.



> In the Buu arc the difference between Goku and Vegeta was on the level of the difference between Vegeta and Piccolo.



Not at all. Picollo was a non-factor against Perfect Cell, who was a benchmark for Dabura. That didn't seem to change much during the timeskip, where he remained a non-factor; worse, Piccolo was scared of Kaioshin, who was scared of Dabura.

Vegeta was a factor vs. Buu, could take and give a few hits. His help was decisive to Goku's victory against Buu.



> Naruto and Sasuke? Sasuke started off far stronger than Naruto. After that Naruto created a huge gap that only closed when the sage of the six paths intervened. once again putting them on the same level.



What?

The gap closed when Naruto achieved Sage Mode. Zetsu even hints that Naruto was stronger than Sasuke then.



> Please, just please go into the Naruto Section and put EMS Sasuke up against Nine Tails Naruto and see how much you get laughed at.



That's not really a matter of difference in power level though. It's a matter of bad match ups.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Yuki (Oct 4, 2016)

Intus Legere said:


> About Dragon Ball: CMPope and Juvia, you guys are crazy. Dunno is correct about Vegeta and Goku.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Excuse me?

1. Yes they did.

2. That part is also known by DBZ even in manga by pretty much everyone. plz stop...

3. Because he went into the chamber first... oh wow...

4. Piccolo is confirmed as the strongest none transformed being in the DBZ verse. Which likely also means non Majin Dabura. If Majin is a double booster (And it was not just for Vegeta.), Piccolo got a hell of a lot stronger over the time skip as well. That "Piccolo was scared of Kaioshin." Was from rep and authority. >_> Once again... "Piccolo is confirmed as the strongest none transformed being in the DBZ verse."

Anime only, but he sure could take a punch. Show me where Piccolo got oneshot again?

Plus, the whole Vegeta/Piccolo thing was more of a point than a fact.

Yes, that's when Naruto became stronger. Then he unlocked another power up, then another which just kept drifting them apart. When Sasuke got one Naruto got a better one. 

How is it not a difference in power but matchup? Legit like... what?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 4, 2016)

It's either a tie or high-diff win for Luffy, depending on how the match goes.

Luffy wins if he enters G4 earlier in the fight. If not, I reckon he'll sustain injuries that either make no difference or turn the match into a tie when he ultimately enters G4. I do think Zoro's Buso is stronger and more potent than Luffy's, and he's also much more effective as a whole compared to G2/G3 Luffy.


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## Yuki (Oct 4, 2016)

@

Let me just educate you on just one thing about DragonBall and it's level with the good guys.

Goku meets Yamcha, pretty good fight. couple arcs later. Goku stomps.

Goku meets Tein, pretty good fight, couple arcs later, Goku stomps.

Goku meets Piccolo, pretty good fight, couple arcs later, Goku stomps.

Goku meets Vegeta, pretty good fight, couple arcs later, Goku stomps.

See anything familiar here?

Goku always gets away from the guy that give him a good fight a couple arcs ago.

After that every arc that goes by the gap increases over and over and over again. Despite the other good guy training too.

You can't give anything to Vegeta that every other Z fighter does not have. He was not the only one to stay close to Goku for more than one arc, pretty much everyone has done it. In fact, Piccolo holds the title for keeping up for the most arcs.  He was also the first person to not only close the gap, but to put him self over Goku. Piccolo did it twice. Albet only for a little bit of an arc. 

With that, i am done with this thread.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Oct 4, 2016)

@Intus Legere if you want to talk, bro, just quote me. 

Don't be name-dropping me slyly like that; you think I'm wrong you tell me where and I'll briefly entertain the notion of discussing it further.


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## Intus Legere (Oct 4, 2016)

@CMPope From what I see, you're in line with Juvia. And I only saw you post after typing mine (both times) so I just dropped your name since the argument was similar.



Juvia. said:


> No, Goku was 3x stronger than Vegeta in the Freeza arc, but was 8x stronger in the Buu arc.



Where are you taking those numbers from? 0_o

Vegeta could have been one shot by a Frieza who was not even close to using of his full power. Goku easily beat full power Frieza.

Vegeta was giving and taking punches from Buu, and could hold Kid Buu for a minute. Goku could do better than him, but couldn't win against Buu either.



The gap was far larger during the Namekian saga. I don't know how this is even up to debate.


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## Yuki (Oct 4, 2016)

Intus Legere said:


> Where are you taking those numbers from? 0_o
> 
> Vegeta could have been one shot by a Frieza who was not even close to using of his full power. Goku easily beat full power Frieza.
> 
> ...



Vegeta's PL was at 1 mill during his final fight with Freeza. Goku's PL was at 3 mill during his fight with Freeza until SSJ which i said i was not counting as Vegeta did get SSJ right after. I don't really count something unless it stays that way.

Vegeta got stomped by Buu in the manga >_> Stop trying to play it down... Goku could have won, he even said that he could have. >_> Buu was getting stronger and Goku even said at full power in SSJ3 he could still beat and Kill Buu despite his power growing throughout their first battle. 

Just look it up, most of the stuff i've said is common knowledge on the internet.


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## Intus Legere (Oct 4, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> @
> 
> Let me just educate you on just one thing about DragonBall and it's level with the good guys.
> 
> ...



Even if you call that a rule, it doesn't prove anything. Rules almost always have exceptions. Goku couldn't stomp Vegeta during the start of the Androids arc. Vegeta was a non-factor vs. Frieza, but was a factor against both Perfect Cell and Buu -- more so against the latter than against the former.


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## Yuki (Oct 4, 2016)

Intus Legere said:


> Even if you call that a rule, it doesn't prove anything. Rules almost always have exceptions. Goku couldn't stomp Vegeta during the start of the Androids arc. Vegeta was a non-factor vs. Frieza, but was a factor against both Perfect Cell and Buu -- more so against the latter than against the former.



Perfect Cell held back tremendously against Vegeta, he was a legit warm up. He also held back against Goku, but no where near as much. Goku at just half of his power made Vegeta shit him self in anger. Another year inside the Chamber helped Vegeta catch up a bit, but he still easily acknowledged how much weaker he was... Vegeta could not even beat a Cell Junior...

Stop saying that.  Vegeta was nothing to Kid Buu... Fat Buu? Yes, but barely... and that was even Majin Vegeta that is canonically 2x stronger than Vegeta without that power... It's not proven that Vegeta did indeed lose all that power after he died and came back... but there is no proof he kept it either... Unless you don't think Vegeta had SSJ2 until then.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Oct 4, 2016)

Intus Legere said:


> @CMPope From what I see, you're in line with Juvia. And I only saw you post after typing mine (both times) so I just dropped your name since the argument was similar.



First of all stop dodging quoting me properly, I can spell your name correctly least you can do is extend the same courtesy it's six letters.... 
Secondly if you want to talk to me then talk _to me, _bro.

If you disagree with something I said then by all means point it out but don't give a half-hearted mention telling me I'm wrong and not even have the class to elaborate on it.


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## Intus Legere (Oct 4, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Vegeta's PL was at 1 mill during his final fight with Freeza. Goku's PL was at 3 mill during his fight with Freeza until SSJ which i said i was not counting as Vegeta did get SSJ right after. I don't really count something unless it stays that way.
> 
> Vegeta got stomped by Buu in the manga >_> Stop trying to play it down... Goku could have won, he even said that he could have. >_> Buu was getting stronger and Goku even said at full power in SSJ3 he could still beat and Kill Buu despite his power growing throughout their first battle.
> 
> Just look it up, most of the stuff i've said is common knowledge on the internet.



If you omit Kaioken, then sure, Goku is just 3x stronger than Vegeta. But you know Kaioken can not be excluded. With or without drawbacks, it was the strongest tool of his arsenal together with Genki Dama.

Since you don't want to cound SSJ, let's just count Kaioken according to the Daizenshuu, which you seem to be basing your numbers on. With Kaioken, Goku was 60 times stronger than Vegeta. Even with Kaioken alone, the gap here is far wider than any time after Namekian saga.

Goku could have won against Fat Buu. Against Kid Buu, he couldn't. Vegeta traded blows against both.

As for Majin Vegeta being 2x stronger than normal Vegeta... just no. His performance later on, against other, stronger forms of Buu, say otherwise. SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ2 Goku seemed to be pretty much equals after Vegeta's resurrection.

Finally, I mean that Vegeta was a factor because he was the one who gave Gohan an opening against Super Perfect Cell.



So Vegeta went from being 60 times (or 150, counting SSJ) weaker than Goku to being 1:1 during the Androids, to being who-knows how many times weaker during Cell Games, and finally to being according to <<your estimation>> 8 times weaker than Goku during Buu saga. In short, even taking your view into account, the gap wasn't constantly widened, and they never grew apart.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Yuki (Oct 4, 2016)

Indeed, but once SSJ became a thing that became a thing of the past. Also, if it was actua;ly taken into consideration over the power levels Vegeta would not be called the strongest of them during their fight, as Goku had that power up then as well and exceeded Vegetas PL.

Omfg ffs.



THERE LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENS TO VEGETA FFS!

He lasted half a damn chapter and he was done... Omfg...

As for Goku not being able to Kill him in SSJ3... yes sure just brush aside what Goku said not once but TWICE! To Vegeta during that battle.

Here, let me post it for you so you actually get it.



Happy now?

His performance later on agaist other forms of Buu say otherwise? Can you please show me what performances they were?

Super Buu > Kid Buu.

As i've just shown you, Kid Buu stomped Vegeta. LITERALLY STOMPED!

Can you please show me where he put up a good performance vs a Buu after he came back without his Majin power?

Also, tis canon it was a 2x boost... Who am i arguing with? Someone that has watched only the anime only once and has not looked up anything about the manga since the 90s?

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Soca (Oct 4, 2016)

Yea this has gone way off topic. This debate is pretty much done anyways. 

Closing

Reactions: Dislike 2


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