# Tsunade vs Ei



## Bringer (Jan 7, 2016)

Area: Tanzaku town

Distance: 15 meters

Knowledge: Manga

State of mind: IC

*Restrictions:* Byakogou, Katsuyu, Ei can only stay in base


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 7, 2016)

Base Tsunade chops Raikage's arms off.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Raikage ninja speeds circles around Tsunade and beats her into a coma.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jan 7, 2016)

Base Ay's reflexes are on-par with Minato's, but where are the feats suggesting his movement speed can blitz Tsunade like you're suggesting with that gif, Rocky?

Please don't say because he blitzed a Zetsu.


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## Jad (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Raikage ninja speeds circles around Tsunade and beats her into a coma.






UchihaX28 said:


> Base Tsunade chops Raikage's arms off.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Base Ay's reflexes are on-par with Minato's, but where are the feats suggesting his movement speed can blitz Tsunade like you're suggesting with that gif, Rocky?



He isn't going to blitz her, but he's going to dominate with a gargantuan speed advantage. Her natural speed was a 3.5/5. That's too slow to challenge somebody with roof-tier reflexes. I've certainly never seen a taijutsu-only fight be that competitive with such a disparity in speed.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jan 7, 2016)

I don't know, that just seems based off of conjecture. We seriously haven't _ever_ seen base Ay's natural speed in an impressive light; it's equally possible that his natural reflexes are simply that much better than his movement speed. Concrete evidence trumps speculation every time.

That said? I can't really imagine Tsunade blitzing even a Zetsu, lol. Ay will be faster, but not by a terribly huge amount.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> We seriously haven't _ever_ seen base Ay's natural speed in an impressive light









ATastyMuffin said:


> it's equally possible that his natural reflexes are simply that much better than his movement speed.



There are no examples of that at all in the entire manga. Reflexes have only ever separated themselves from movement when one is enhanced through unnatural means. Oh, and about the comment that actually puts A on par with Minato? C makes no effort to differentiate between reflexes & speed. 

A has *reflexes* that rival the Yellow Flash -> It's impressive that these guys are *keeping up with his speed* -> But he's used lighting chakra to raise his *reflexes* -> Now the Sharingan won't be able to *keep up with his speed.* Kishimoto isn't highlighting a difference between the two.  



ATastyMuffin said:


> Concrete evidence trumps speculation every time.



Cool, but there isn't any concrete evidence against what I'm suggesting, so...what's your point, exactly?


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## hbcaptain (Jan 7, 2016)

Base Ei's reflexes are below Tsunade and Onoki when he use Keijugan according to feats=>Tsunade wins punch to the tomachs .

And no in base he is nowhere near Minato in reflexes according to feats and hype (Cee was obviously talking about V2) since Minato can physically react to his V2 .

Tsunade wins mid diff .


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 7, 2016)

C: Lord Raikage's nerve transmissions and his reaction speed are on par with that of Konoha's yellow flash.....Impressive these folks are keeping up as well as they are. But Lord Raikage has manipulated raiton chakra to augment his reflexes! Not even the sharingan will be able to keep up with him. Plus, there's still...

 This is the Viz Translation. Rocky's interpretation is literally correct IMO. C emphasizes how Base Raikage's reflexes are incredible due to them being on par with the "Yellow Flash" and later emphasizes how not even the Sharingan will be able to keep up with Raikage once his Cloak is on. That's even emphasized when Raikage states that Genjutsu is useless. Him comparing Base Raikage to the "Yellow Flash" is meant to emphasize how Raikage's fast even without his cloak and is even much faster with it, even to the point where a Sharingan User can't keep up.

 Personally, C seems to refer to both reflexes and speed in his statement.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> It's a Zetsu, homie.



And that Zetsu is telling you that you're wrong. 



ATastyMuffin said:


> That doesn't make it a rule.



Who cares if it's a rule. Everybody in the manga following a pattern is good enough for me because I don't know why Raikage would be different from everybody else.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Is that the actual translation? Like Viz?






ATastyMuffin said:


> That's not how it works, lol. You make a positive claim, you find evidence to support it. The onus is not on me to disprove a claim.



Er, I've got evidence that suggests his movement speed is up there with his reflexes, and no evidence that suggests it isn't.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 7, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> C: Lord Raikage's nerve transmissions and his reaction speed are on par with that of Konoha's yellow flash.....Impressive these folks are keeping up as well as they are. But Lord Raikage has manipulated raiton chakra to augment his reflexes! Not even the sharingan will be able to keep up with him. Plus, there's still...
> 
> This is the Viz Translation. Rocky's interpretation is literally correct IMO. C emphasizes how Base Raikage's reflexes are incredible due to them being on par with the "Yellow Flash" and later emphasizes how not even the Sharingan will be able to keep up with Raikage once his Cloak is on. That's even emphasized when Raikage states that Genjutsu is useless. Him comparing Base Raikage to the "Yellow Flash" is meant to emphasize how Raikage's fast even without his cloak and is even much faster with it, even to the point where a Sharingan User can't keep up.
> 
> Personally, C seems to refer to both reflexes and speed in his statement.


Well ,tell me since when C said Raikage's reflexes are on par with Minato's *without RCM* . And also with that dumb interpretation of yours *Ei wasn't using Raiton cloak against Sasuke and he is about to use it .*

You have to chose :
1- Cee was talking about V2 Ei and it's all logical since he was already using RCM , and feats place Minato far above MS Sasuke and Danzo in reflexes .

2-Cee was talking about Base Ei , and Ei wasn't using Raiton cloak against Sasuke (total absurdity saying the opposite is beeing blind or troll) , and Minato is less reflexive than MS Sasuke , Onoki , Danzo , Tsunade , old half dead Hiruzen etc etc which is a total nonsens .

The answer is obvious . If you chose 2 then you are definitly a troll , this also confirms you truly hate Minato to palce him below all the Kage .


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 7, 2016)

In fairness, Zetsu was blitzed by Shikamaru/Ino, and never commented on their speed. He got blitzed by Sakura too, and by probably some other average ninjas that I can't remember. The point is, Raikage is obviously way above average if Zetsu commented on his speed, whenever he didn't do so with slower ninja.

That still doesn't make him uber fast though.

Tsunade attacked in tandem with Base Raikage when they were flung out of a lightning bolt. And just because it was a "dramatic interception", that doesn't mean we just write it off as insignificant whenever there is literally no reason to assume Ei's movement speed is far above Tsunade's. His reflexes might be hella higher, but if he was uber fast on his feet without Shunshin, he wouldn't spam it half as much as he does, and he wouldn't have been matched, if not outsped by flying Onoki when he tried to save an unconscious Tsunade from being stabbed by Susano'o.

There's also the fact that all of Raikage's attacks are linear chops, kicks and punches, making them easily predictable, and making it possible for Tsunade, who is trained in evasion, to actively dodge his attacks.

The only way Base Raikage will blitz is if he has an uber Shunshin like Minato, but there's no proof that he does.​​


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## hbcaptain (Jan 7, 2016)

Not to mention Minato's striking speed is actually faster than V2 Ei fastest punch according to the manga :


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## Ersa (Jan 7, 2016)

I dunno, A got tagged by Yamato in base. I'd rank him as 4.5~5 speed in base and easily much slower then guys like Gai, Itachi, etc. That being said he is much faster then Tsunade and without regeneration I think he is the more durable of the two so I'd favour A more times then not.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

It doesn't matter if she can react to him. If she couldn't do that this wouldn't even be a fight. In the end, his super speed & taijutsu will significantly pressure her, while her natural movement is slow-mo to him. He reads her like a book and beats the shit out of her due to being one of the few characters with the strength to knock her around.



			
				Elsa said:
			
		

> I dunno, A got tagged by Yamato in base. I'd rank him as 4.5~5 speed in base and easily much slower then guys like Gai, Itachi, etc.



Your conclusion doesn't follow your premise. Itachi & (base) Gai get rained on by giant wooden fists against Guruguru.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 7, 2016)

Base Raikage isn't that fast , both his Shunshin speed and reaction/reflexes might be on par with Sharinganless Sasuke , Tsunade can easily handle this kind of speed , thought , even in base Ei's punch is pretty powerful but the same goes for Tsunade without Byakugou chakra . I would say Ei has a little advantage here .


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## Ersa (Jan 7, 2016)

Somehow I'm not inclined to believe Minato would get tagged by Yamato honestly.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

In midair (where there's limited mobility) against Guruguru's Shin Sūsenju? Yeah nobody's dodging that unless they can fly or walk on the sky like Gai.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 7, 2016)

Nah he just throws a Kunai in the opposite direction, poof, dodged.

Or he just touches it, teleports directly to Yamato and beheads him before the fist even moves to the position that would've hit him in the torso.


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## Ersa (Jan 7, 2016)

SM Kabuto dodged a faster Susanoo in the same situation.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

@Wiz

Without ftg, I mean.

@Ersatz

Susanoo being faster than Shin Sūsenju is baseless, and Susanoo is _fuckloads_ smaller.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 7, 2016)

Minato's moves and reflexes are on par with V2 Ei , powered by manga feats . Minato in the same situation of Base Ei is easily dodging Gurguru's punch .


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 7, 2016)

MS Sasuke dodged V1 Killer Bee in the same situation, with 3-toma active [1]

I'd wager V1 Killer Bee is... 3 times as fast as those fists that only have feats blitzing fodder... and Base Raikage of course... who's also fodder speed wise?


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## Saru (Jan 7, 2016)

I don't see Raikage beating Tsunade in a taijutsu match in base, healing or no. She is hyped to have far more taijutsu prowess, and should be able to react to A's attacks and eventually land a hit. Tsunade should easily be able to sidestep A's linear attacks.

People will probably argue the same for Raikage: he can easily dodge Tsunade's attacks. But the thing is, in a taijutsu *exchange* (not just a straightforward attack like A trying to punch Minato), there is clashing of hands, arms, feet, etc. You clash with Tsunade in a taijutsu exchange and you die.

I would say that Tsunade wins with mid-high difficulty. I think their speed and reaction times are similar, so it would be a good match... Until A gets hit.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Yeah 'cause B is _totally_ as big as Shin Sūsenju.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> I don't see Raikage beating Tsunade in a taijutsu match in base, healing or no. She is hyped to have far more taijutsu prowess, and should be able to react to A's attacks and eventually land a hit. Tsunade should easily be able to sidestep A's linear attacks.
> 
> People will probably argue the same for Raikage: he can easily dodge Tsunade's attacks. But the thing is, in a taijutsu *exchange* (not just a straightforward attack like A trying to punch Minato), there is clashing of hands, arms, feet, etc. You clash with Tsunade in a taijutsu exchange and you die.
> 
> I would say that Tsunade wins with mid-high difficulty. I think their speed and reaction times are similar, so it would be a good match... Until A gets hit.


Byakugou is restricted tough , Ei's base punch is enough I tink to beat Tsunade with one punch , if it's coming to this , Since the first one to punch is the winner , then base Ei has a little advantage here .


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## Ersa (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Susanoo being faster than Shin Sūsenju is baseless, and Susanoo is _fuckloads_ smaller.


It's not, Yamato's wood has been dodged by Kakuzu and....Sai. No amount of Zetsu amplification is putting that near Susanoo's speed. It also has zero feats apart from tagging base Raikage who has zero feats apart from blitzing Zetsu which is something most 4.5 speed shinobi could replicate.

Judging from feats, put injured B fight Sasuke or SM Kabuto in that situation and they dodge with zero difficulty. Any size disparity is made up by the fact that Yamato's wood is about several tiers below V1 B and Susanoo.

If I can dodge a bullet from ten metres, chances are  I can dodge a rolling shopping cart coming at me ten metres too.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Yeah 'cause B is _totally_ as big as Shin Sūsenju.


Are you implying the fists were the size of a building or something?

They're barely larger than Mei [1]

And she reacted to them... but didn't have the chakra to create a jutsu, so she blocked with her forearm

Are you also implying Mei reacts to V1 Killer Bee like MS Sasuke did?


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> You clash with Tsunade in a taijutsu exchange and you die.



Madara could block Tsunade comfortably, and he's not even close to A in physical power. A won't struggle blocking & parrying her hits (of those that land), and he just punches her in the head repeatedly until she's out cold.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 7, 2016)

Why the hell would Base Ei be capable of ever hitting Tsunade in the face?

She swings her arms around until his guard breaks and then SHEs the one beating HIS face in.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Ersa said:


> No amount of Zetsu amplification is putting that near Susanoo's speed.



Please prove that.



DaVizWiz said:


> Are you implying the fists were the size of a building or something?



The thing has 1000 fists. It could have bunched 250 of them together and aimed them at Raikage.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 7, 2016)

> The thing has 1000 fists. It could have bunched 250 of them together and aimed them at Raikage.


It does not have 1,000 fists.

It looked to have 30 at most. 



And they were like 3% the size of Hashirama's.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Why the hell would Base Ei be capable of ever hitting Tsunade in the face?



Because he's going to sidestep and/or parry all of her comparatively sluggish attacks without difficulty. It's easy to hit somebody in the face when they move in slow-mo.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Because he's going to sidestep and/or parry all of her comparatively sluggish attacks without difficulty. It's easy to hit somebody in the face when they move in slow-mo.


Tsunade moves in slow mo?

We'll have to send Manda & Orochimaru's mouth a memo.

[1] [2] [3] [4] [5]


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## Saru (Jan 7, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Byakugou is restricted tough , Ei's base punch is enough I tink to beat Tsunade with one punch , if it's coming to this , Since the first one to punch is the winner , then base Ei has a little advantage here .




What I mean is that even without healing, Tsunade can beat A in base. I don't think A will be able to land a blow without Tsunade also doing so, and if Tsunade lands a blow, A's finished.



Rocky said:


> Madara could block Tsunade comfortably, and he's not even close to A in physical power. A won't struggle blocking & parrying her hits (of those that land), and he just punches her in the head repeatedly until she's out cold.




When was this?


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

If only Orochimaru or Manda had Minato's reflexes.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> What I mean is that even without healing, Tsunade can beat A in base. I don't think A will be able to land a blow without Tsunade also doing so, and if Tsunade lands a blow, A's finished


Same goes for Ei , if he land a blow she is finished , so basically you are saying it's a draw .


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 7, 2016)

He's probably going to be faster just because he's Ei regardless of whether or not he should actually be faster or not when powered down.  He will be for exactly the same reasons Tsunade will be able to keep relative pace with Ei regardless of whether she should be able to or when he's powered up.  But she's going to hit him after not too long regardless and he'll be screwed even if not immediately dead.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 7, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Not to mention Minato's striking speed is actually faster than V2 Ei fastest punch according to the manga :



Prove that during those times, Ei was already as good as he was later, when he became Raikage.

As for this thread...

Tsunade takes this without much of a difficulty.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> When was this?



Coming out of Heavenly Transfer. Also, back in Part I, she didn't blow Orochimaru's face off with one punch, and Orochimaru & Raikage are on a separate plane of toughness/durability....


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## Saru (Jan 7, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Same goes for Ei , if he land a blow she is finished , so basically you are saying it's a draw .




Nah, Tsunade hits harder than A does blow for blow.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> If only Orochimaru or Manda had Minato's reflexes.



Yeah, I don't see Minato getting tagged by Sasuke's chidori or not putting a kunai into the back of his Uchiha head if they both dashed in for an attack.  Do you?


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 7, 2016)

[5]
[5]

Reflexes/Shunshin/Reaction/Perception:

Base Ei < V1 Ei < MS Sasuke < V2 Ei < Minato

The funny thing is prior to this Cee, who was 10 when Minato died, said Base Ei had Minato's reflexes... then he fails to react to MS Sasuke a second later with the added perception/reflexes of Raiton Chakra Mode 

Dat no credibility Cee


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

You guys really only have a point if you can prove that A actually attempted to dodge that unlike the sword he allowed to bounce off of his neck two pages before that.


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## Bonly (Jan 7, 2016)

Tsunade is eventually gonna land a hit on A and when she does it's either gonna outright kill him or leave him in a very messed up state which is gonna make it easier for Tsunade to finish him off, either way I'd go with Tsunade more times then not


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## Saru (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Coming out of Heavenly Transfer. Also, back in Part I, she didn't blow Orochimaru's face off with one punch, and Orochimaru & Raikage are on a separate plane of toughness/durability....




Okay, she was literally coming out of nowhere and intercepted Madara mid-attack. And was already using Sozo Saisei. Tsunade doesn't have top-tier reflexes and reaction speed; I wouldn't expect her to be able to use her full strength in a situation like that. Muu didn't have any injuries from A's attack either.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 7, 2016)

That's not our responsibility.

It's your responsibility to prove he didn't have any intention of dodging. 

That's not my point anyway. 

My point is he didn't attempt to dodge because he couldn't even perceive Sasuke ducting his head.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> You guys really only have a point if you can prove that A actually attempted to dodge that unlike the sword he allowed to bounce off of his neck two pages before that.



Why do you think Ei didn't want to hit Sasuke?


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

You know, Raikage is more durable than Tsunade, so she isn't going to be able to hit him with enough force to damage him without obliterating her own arm. I think that's how it works.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 7, 2016)

Meh, Base Killer Bee had no issue lariating his ass back into the ground.

Shit, even Base Sakura rocked Kaguya, the most durable character in the manga back down [1]


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 7, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> That's not our responsibility.
> 
> It's your responsibility to prove he didn't have any intention of dodging.
> 
> Which you cannot.



I'm okay with Ei being cool taking a hit.  I'm not okay with him watching Sasuke dodge in slow-mo and not adjusting his blow.

Like I said, if Sasuke and Minato charged each other, I think Minato would react to Sasuke ducking and change his attack.  He'd probably evade instead of tanking, but for sure he'd hit Sasuke and win the exchange.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> That's not our responsibility. It's your responsibility to prove he didn't have any intention of dodging.



If you want to use A failing to dodge Sasuke as _proof_ of anything, then you're going to have to prove that A actually couldn't dodge him if he had wanted to, otherwise your source is shoddy. 



DaVizWiz said:


> My point is he didn't attempt to dodge because he couldn't even perceive Sasuke ducting his head.



Nothing suggests that. Do you see a "!!?" like there was when A missed Minato & Obito? No, you see A immediately grabbing Sasuke before he could go anywhere in preparation for Liger Bomb.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> He'd probably evade instead of tanking, but for sure he'd hit Sasuke and win the exchange.



[YOUTUBE]-0_sq4m-_V4[/YOUTUBE]

Looks like Raikage won the exchange to me.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 7, 2016)

> If you want to use A failing to dodge Sasuke as _proof_ of anything, then you're going to have to prove that A actually couldn't dodge him if he had wanted to, otherwise your source is shoddy.


Dude, your suggestion is more radical than mine.

All I did was state what was shown, it's not my burden to prove it, it's literally what happened on panel. 



> Nothing suggests that. Do you see a "!!?" like there was when A missed Minato & Obito? No, you see A immediately grabbing Sasuke before he could go anywhere in preparation for Liger Bomb.


Because V2 Ei perceived Minato avoiding his speed, and V1 Ei perceived his arm going through Obito, he must have seen Sasuke ducting his head?

Nah I don't think so man. 

Your argument works against you.

Had he seen him ducting, the author would've drawn the "!!?" in this instance as well.

You're also comparing two punches to an elbow. A punch has more range and isn't blocking his view of his target. That elbow was closer to his body, so he'd have less time to react to a counter attack assuming it missed, as apposed to an arm extended punch, plus the elbow partially blocks his view of the target's head, which wouldn't matter anyway because he should feel whether or not the elbow hit just as fast as if he could see it. 

My evaluation remains the same. Sasuke out sped him there, clearly.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 7, 2016)

That's the second exchange.  The first was elbow vs raikiri.

I don't know why Ei wouldn't want to hit him with whatever if he saw Sasuke moving in slow-motion and didn't care about getting hit.  

Please explain.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> All I did was state what was shown, it's not my burden to prove it, it's literally what happened on panel.



No, that's just your interpretation of what was shown. If A did let himself get hit, it isn't like we'd see something different.  



DaVizWiz said:


> Had he seen him ducting, the author would've drawn the "!!?" in this instance as well.



"!!?" is used when the character didn't expect something to happen. If A didn't see Sasuke until Chidori was in his chest, we probably would have gotten a panel of surprise or "wtf just happened" somewhere. 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> I don't know why Ei wouldn't want to hit him with whatever if he saw Sasuke moving in slow-motion and didn't care about getting hit.




Sasuke uses Chidori.
A puts an elbow in Sasuke's face.
Sasuke ducks the elbow.

So if A has the reflexes to keep track of 56 dozen Minato warp points in the middle of a punch, A has the reflexes to see this all playing out in front of him. He also knows what taijutsu is, so he can probably anticipate that Chidori is going to be extended into his chest. Now, if you're A, do _you_ make an effort to get out of the way? Or, do you let it hit you expecting it to do nothing, use that easy opening to immediately grab Sasuke _without so much as a *hint* of surprise that you just got stabbed_, instead express surprise that he pierced your armor, and...



I think you probably do what Raikage did.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 7, 2016)

> No, that's just your interpretation of what was shown. If A did let himself get hit, it isn't like we'd see something different.


No, it's the most logical interpretation. 



> "!!?" is used when the character didn't expect something to happen. If A didn't see Sasuke until Chidori was in his chest, we probably would have gotten a panel of surprise or "wtf just happened" somewhere.


Which can only logically mean he didn't perceive his elbow missing because of Sasuke's speed.


> So if A has the reflexes to keep track of 56 dozen Minato warp points in the middle of a punch, A has the reflexes to see this all playing out in front of him. He also knows what taijutsu is, so he can probably anticipate that Chidori is going to be extended into his chest. Now, if you're A, do you make an effort to get out of the way? Or, do you let it hit you expecting it to do nothing, use that easy opening to immediately grab Sasuke without so much as a hint of surprise that you just got stabbed, instead express surprise that he pierced your armor, and...


You adjust your attack as Sasuke is ducting his head and land it on him...


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## StarWanderer (Jan 7, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, it's the most logical interpretation.
> 
> Which can only logically mean he didn't perceive his elbow missing because of Sasuke's speed.



There is a possibility of Ei being so cocky (because cockiness is in Ei's character) he let Sasuke attack him. Or he let him to quickly counter-attack by Liger Bomb. He wasnt surprised about Sasuke dodging his attack. The only thing he praised was Chidori's penetrative power. And he grabbed him later, easily.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 7, 2016)

Mm, no, I think I'd drop my elbow into Sasuke's skull, if at all possible.  I can read and exceed his movements, so it's easy for me.  Then I'd liger bomb him for good measure because I'm Ei and I hate Sasuke.

If that's all you're going to say, I could offer you a few plausible explanations, if you'd like.

*Ei couldn't see it and he couldn't react.  Perhaps Sasuke's movements were too sudden and too slight for him to notice.
*
I don't believe that.  He was surprised but still aware than Minato jumped, and that's far faster than Sasuke's duck.  

*Ei didn't care about landing his hit, or getting hit.*

I don't believe this either.  Ei had a lot of motivation to hurt Sasuke, and it seemed he had every intention of putting his hard part into Sasuke when he threw his weight behind that lunging elbow.
*
Ei was surprised and caught off guard.*

He didn't seem surprised at Sasuke's evasion, he seemed surprised he got hurt.  That suggests to me he saw it coming and expected to take a hit.  It also doesn't address why he didn't adjust his aim.

*Ei could see Sasuke but he couldn't react.  He couldn't react not because his reflexes were slow, but rather because he was fully committed to his elbow strike.  *

I like this one.  I like it because it reflects the Raikage's stubborn personality and fighting style, and makes sense given his defence.  Best of all, we saw it in his other fights.  He used fully committed punches against Naruto, so much that after he dodged he crash and smashed into a boulder half a dozen meters behind Naruto.  Against Minato, even through he was trying to look behind him to see where he teleported (both times) he was so fully committed to his punch that he kept sailing long after Minato went and did things.  When Naruto threw up his cross-guard, he probably saw that too, but was so committed to his strike that he punched his guard anyway.  Ei needs to be committed to his attacks for them to achieve their famous speed, and to crush any barriers placed by opponents.  It's a solution that's typically Raikage.  Go fast and hit hard with everything you have.  Go fast enough and people can't react, and hit hard enough that it won't matter if they do.  His durability affords him the ability to do this, whereas other taijutsu shinobi like Lee and Guy and Neji have to be careful with when and how they attack, and where they attack, while being mindful of the opponent's counter.  Ei doesn't care and doesn't train like that, and would probably call anyone who does a wimp and ask if they even lift.  If he did try to fight like that, he'd probably suck at it or revert real quick when a lifetime of instincts and training screams at him to do the opposite.  Yeah, I like that one.  If you don't, well, I've already given the explanations to you, and we can't change the past.

...unless you're Strategos.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, it's the most logical interpretation.



I beg to differ. 



DaVizWiz said:


> Which can only logically mean he didn't perceive his elbow missing because of Sasuke's speed.



Imo, if that were the case, A probably would have said "yo how did you get there?" instead of "I'm surprised that attack actually got through the armor."



DaVizWiz said:


> You adjust your attack as Sasuke is ducting his head and land it on him...



Give A chakra arms and watch him go to work. Otherwise, what you're saying is impossible. He can't adjust elbow when it's already flying past Sasuke's head. He might have been able to parry Sasuke's arm with his free hand while Sasuke was extending Chidori, or just lunged backwards....but why? He was perfectly set up for liger bomb.


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Jan 7, 2016)

ps: speed isn't the same as combat prowess

for example haku was like... 4 in the databook and sasuke was 3 at the time and iirc he was overwhelming him

If everything was literally SPEED SPEED SPEED, sarutobi wouldn't really have ever been revered as the strongest shinobi at his time or the god of shinobi with people like 3rd and 4th raikage around, whether he was in his prime or not.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 7, 2016)

> Imo, if that were the case, A probably would have said "yo how did you get there?" instead of "I'm surprised that attack actually got through the armor."


Because that's what he said to Minato & KCM Naruto who avoided his full speed?

Oh wait... 

No "!!?" after Naruto avoided his full speed either

[1]


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I beg to differ.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, i agree with you on this one.


----------



## Saru (Jan 7, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> No "!!?" after Naruto avoided his full speed either
> 
> [1]




I agree. The Raikage probably did see Sasuke's hit coming, but he couldn't physically react in time. Otherwise, he would've readjusted his strike.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Because that's what he said to Minato & KCM Naruto who avoided his full speed?
> 
> Oh wait...
> 
> ...





I don't think A was very surprised that he missed there. Talk no Jutsu was already in effect. That attack was just the final test.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 7, 2016)

I say can't because the entire style is premised on being a whirling spinning electric slicing porcupine.  The best translation would be for Ei to do the Zangief.



I don't... I don't...  I just don't see someone likened to, "A God of War," or, "a War God," losing to that.


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## Itachі (Jan 7, 2016)

It's entirely possible that Raikage allowed himself to be hit with Chidori imo, he didn't seem fazed by it in the slightest. He expressed surprise at the prospect of the technique penetrating his armour in the first place.



I don't think Sasuke dodging his elbow was part of his plan though.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Madara could block Tsunade comfortably, and he's not even close to A in physical power. A won't struggle blocking & parrying her hits (of those that land), and he just punches her in the head repeatedly until she's out cold.



No...... Tsuandesr muscles were severed at that point. Ay isn't as durable or even close to that of RibCage sussano. He gets killed by tsuande.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Jan 7, 2016)

since its base tsunade wins, eventually shes landing a hit


----------



## hbcaptain (Jan 7, 2016)

Well , explain to me how is tsunade going to tank Ei punch without Byakugou .


----------



## Kai (Jan 7, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Well , explain to me how is tsunade going to tank Ei punch without Byakugou .





			
				Databook 2 - Sozo Saisei said:
			
		

> Genesis* Rebirth (創造再生, Souzou Saisei)
> Ninjutsu, S-rank, Supplementary
> User: Tsunade
> 
> ...



Should be enough to deal with base A.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 7, 2016)

Whoops...

Sozo Saisei is restricted too, alongside Byakogou. 

Tsunade can still access her Byakogou seal though, so she can just transfer all the chakra from her seal into her base reserves, and just put months worth of chakra into her punches instead of regeneration


----------



## hbcaptain (Jan 7, 2016)

Kai said:


> Should be enough to deal with base A.


Sozo Sazei use Baykugou chakra , but yeah , basically she wins if it's allowed .


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> You think that he's good enough at a fighting style completely opposite the only approach he's ever shown or hinted at



It isn't a separate "fighting style." It's sidestepping or parrying turtle punches and counter-punching, which is taijutsu about as complicated as Bunshin no Jutsu. You're exaggerating. He doesn't need to bust out B-level acrobatics because Tsunade isn't Sharingan Sasuke. 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> his peer who has actually displayed and taught different approaches to taijutsu, and with whom we have far greater reason to believe has high skill and diversity.



Oh please. Tsunade is just as smashy smashy as you think A is. Kabuto didn't have all that much trouble with her taijutsu, and yet A is just because she's in better shape? 

 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> The deciding difference is an unsubstantiated tiers wide speed gap you decided is tiers large because a White Zetsu said he was fast and Shi made a comment exclusive to his reflexes in V2.



It's "tiers wide" because his natural speed & reflexes are on par with Minato's (prior to any enhancement with lightning) and she's slower than the Rock Lee that fought Gaara in the exams. 5+ to 3.5 is tiers my friend...


----------



## Veracity (Jan 7, 2016)

Base Tsuande beats Ay almost every time. The speed gap between the two is negated by the taijutsu skill gap. Ay has never been known, not once in the manga, to be exceptional in taijustu. He gets all his hype from speed and chakra, likewise tsuande gets almost all her hype from monstrous strength and medical ninjustu. Yet still, the author chooses to illustrate her finesse in this regard: Gedo, gives her a maxed out taijustu stat, and then goes even far enough to have Jirayia say she's "unsurpassed in Cqc ." Need I mention shes the CQC expert of the Sannin, who have far more hype than Ay to begin with. 

In an actual battle , Tsuande only needs one blow to end Ay or at least incapacitate him.☻ Tsuande with her released seal could obliterate sussano with one kick. I hear lots of talk saying tsuande received help with that feat but that is actually false. She needed help Landing the blow, but the damage inflicted upon sussano was 100℅ tsunade. Some say it took 2 blows because tsuande already hit the sussano here:☻ Gedo, but most don't realize that Madaras sussano regenerates taken damage. Notice that after tsuandes blow and a huge ass water suiton from Mei, that the damage is already regenerated once tsuande kicks the sussano again: Gedo, so now we can agree that tsuande did that damage with one kick. But wait am I forgetting that Ay/Onnoki was there ? Naw I'm not. We know for a fact that Onnoki did not increase Ays weight as Ay with increased weight does this much damags : Gedo, which is a lot more than the small cracks put in sussano in the panel before. So its clear that the Kage knew tsuande could bust sussano as they made a plan for her to create and opening to do so. Kinda sounds a lot like the scene literally 4 panels later of them creating another opening for tsuande. And not a single kage was surprised at the damage tsuande displayed in both scenes.☻ But then I also expect some posters to say " how are we so quick to dismiss the very very very little damage Ay/onnoki did on the whole opposite side of the sussano?" Well Danzo split the whole back of sasukes sussano open : Gedo, and there was no damage dome to the front. Hashirama created a huge opening in PS,☻ yet the bottom of the structure wasn't damaged: Gedo. ETC ETC ETC. I kinda see sussano like an eggshell and I like to think that Ay and Onnokis goal was to stop Madara so tsuande could land that attack. Now we know that Base Sasukes chidori digs about 3 inches into the Raikages chest : Gedo, and we know that resengan equals chidori as per canon . A resengan of this size + Onnokis doton enhancement did at best as much damage as tsuandes kick:☻ Gedo. Conclusion? Tsuande destroys Ay with a punch.

Id like to also add that the RnY clearly acts as armor as the Sandaime Raikage was getting cut up by a Futton squad in base, but was damaged less by an FRS while in RnY mode.☻ But even if for some reason someone still thinks Tsuande can't one hit kill BASE Ay, then shall I remind everyone that she could overload his chakra system with a reverse shosen: Gedo, incapacitating the Raikage, or she could scramble his nervous system: Gedo, to create and opening to land more blows. Or even utilize chakra scalpels and bisect the raikage with her herculean strength.

Now can Ay one shot tsuande ? I doubt it . Ay couldnt scratch Madara with a V2 flicker punch: Gedo, and although Madara is indeed pretty frakonf durable - Tsunade shouldn't be any less durable given her Senju/Uzuamki background + her battle preferences. Not to mention she already has eaten a Yasaka Magmata and it barely broke the skin: Gedo, also notice the distance she traveled plus the fact she destroyed an entire boulder with her back casually with no damage inflicted. Ay may break bones, but also note that tsunade is literally known for crazy resilience, endurance , pain tolerance and the ability to retain her speed and power when injured. Like when she hit Oro with insane speed after being attacked with a diamond cutting sword many times: Gedo, and then also notice how durable and dense her bone structure is given her inability to be bisected from diagonal slashes from oros legendary sword: Link removed, while Danzo looked like this when he slashed diagonally: Link removed.

TBH, Base Ay doesn't impress me in any way. While tsuande is pretty impressive even without Byakago or Katsuyu


----------



## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Tsunade was never implied to be more skilled or knowledgeable than A in taijutsu. Taijutsu is A's focus just as much as it is Tsunade's. They're also of a similar age. 

They're probably going to be comparatively skilled. She's not getting the benefit of the doubt. Her actual feats include playing Part I base Naruto & struggling with Kabuto, so she doesn't exactly win there either. 

Also, if she's actually allowed to release her Yin Seal & use CES, then it isn't taijutsu only like I thought it was. He uses raiton flow and chops her limbs off with no difficulty whatsoever.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 7, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Well ,tell me since when C said Raikage's reflexes are on par with Minato's *without RCM* . And also with that dumb interpretation of yours *Ei wasn't using Raiton cloak against Sasuke and he is about to use it .*





 I'm going to assume your blind because Ei was using his Raiton Cloak against Sasuke.

 And I already explained why Base Raikage = Minato, but you choose to ignore and indulge in your fantasy of Minato ~ V2 Raikage.



> You have to chose :
> 1- Cee was talking about V2 Ei and it's all logical since he was already using RCM , and feats place Minato far above MS Sasuke and Danzo in reflexes .



 No, he said, "But Lord Raikage has manipulated raiton chakra to augment his reflexes!" which means anything preceding the word "But" was referring to Base Raikage. 



> 2-Cee was talking about Base Ei , * and Ei wasn't using Raiton cloak against Sasuke (total absurdity saying the opposite is beeing blind or troll) * , and Minato is less reflexive than MS Sasuke , Onoki , Danzo , Tsunade , old half dead Hiruzen etc etc which is a total nonsense.





 Not at all what I said. I merely explained how C refers to Base Raikage ~ Minato to emphasize how legendary his speed and reflexes are without his Raiton Armor, and how his Raiton Armor takes him to a level that even eclipses that, to the point where the Sharingan can't follow him.

 Basically,  Base Raikage is legendary, so him with Raiton Armor makes him God-like, so not even the most legendary people can compete with him. Comprendes? 



> The answer is obvious . If you chose 2 then you are definitly a troll , this also confirms you truly hate Minato to palce him below all the Kage.



Challenge accepted.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade was never implied to be more skilled or knowledgeable than A in taijutsu. Taijutsu is A's focus just as much as it is Tsunade's. They're also of a similar age.
> 
> They're probably going to be comparatively skilled. She's not getting the benefit of the doubt. Her actual feats include playing Part I base Naruto & struggling with Kabuto, so she doesn't exactly win there either.
> 
> Also, if she's actually allowed to release her Yin Seal & use CES, then it isn't taijutsu only like I thought it was. He uses raiton flow and chops her limbs off with no difficulty whatsoever.


The DB, and character statements say otherwise. And do prove that Ay is just as good as tsuande in CQC. Ill wait for you to post the 0 proof you have. Ay being a CQC fighter doesn't cut it because tsuande is also a CQC expert + has hype + the DB stat. Ay doesnt have any of that , and unlike tsuande, he can use his high level flickers to escape from having to actually be good at CQC.

☻Are you using rusty and exhausted PART ONE tsunade feats when her DB stat comes from Part 2?

Its not only taijutsu. Tsunade can release the seal. And Ay isn't fast enough to blitz her and cut her head off. If you are going of this imaginary assumption that Base Ay is faster than tsuande based on a single character statement, then you also have to agree that Tsunade > Ay in taijustu by character statement.

I also wonder if Ay can even bisect Tsunade... He's a lot more durable than her, but that doesn't mean his bones are as sturdy or dense. I mean Oro failed to do so, and tsunades bones are perfectly fine after dishing out sussano busting punches. But then again sakura does too.
☻


----------



## Saru (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade was never implied to be more skilled or knowledgeable than A in taijutsu.




Not directly, but she has a preponderance of hype, and is arguably portrayed to be more skilled in taijutsu than A.




> They're also of a similar age.




That means nothing in this shōnen, though.



> They're probably going to be comparatively skilled. She's not getting the benefit of the doubt. Her actual feats include playing Part I base Naruto & struggling with Kabuto, so she doesn't exactly win there either.
> 
> Also, if she's actually allowed to release her Yin Seal & use CES, then it isn't taijutsu only like I thought it was. He uses raiton flow and chops her limbs off with no difficulty whatsoever.




OP only restricted Byakugou, Katsuyu, and A's Raiton no Yoroi. That said, I still think Tsunade would win in a straight up taijutsu exchange with (Base) A thanks to CES and greater taijutsu prowess.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> The DB, and character statements say otherwise.



There is nothing in the Databook or Manga claiming Tsunade to be A's superior in taijutsu. 



Likes boss said:


> Ay being a CQC fighter doesn't cut it because tsuande is also a CQC expert + has hype + the DB stat.



In order to master Nintaijutsu, you probably need to master them individually first.  A having a 3.5/5 in taijutsu like Tsunade has in speed is absurd and you should feel bad for making that assertion. 



Likes boss said:


> Are you using rusty and exhausted PART ONE tsunade feats when her DB stat comes from Part 2?



Those are like her only feats, and she was exhausted because Kabuto ran her out of breath. 



Likes boss said:


> If you are going of this imaginary assumption that Base Ay is faster than tsuande based on a single character statement.



Base A is faster than Tsunade because he's a legendary speedster that rivals Minato and she's a 3.5. We know the speed tiers. 

Minato ~ A ≥ Itachi ~ Gai > Asuma ~ Hebi Sasuke > Zabuza ~ Fucking Exams Lee > Tsunade ~ Part I Kabuto

According to that Databook you keep bringing up, speed is Tsunade biggest weakness. Speed is A's greatest strength. Yet herpa derpa "the speed gap won't matter" is all I keep hearing. A dominates the shit out of Tsunade with vastly superior speed. 



Likes boss said:


> I also wonder if Ay can even bisect Tsunade.



His lightning chop cuts through her like toilet paper.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 7, 2016)

Let me explain it a different way hbcaptian.

 C is shocked how Team Taka can follow RCM Raikage's movement because Raikage w/o his Armor is already legendary. With it, he's more than legendary, he's god-like, so the Sharingan shouldn't be able to keep up with him and that makes sense after watching Raikage punch the shit out of Jugo and claiming how the Sharingan is no match for him.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> I still think Tsunade would win in a straight up taijutsu exchange with (Base) A thanks to CES and greater taijutsu prowess.



She's too slow to connect cleanly, and I don't see where this "greater taijutsu prowess" comes from. Hell, he was the one lecturing her for being too sloppy against the Susanoos. He outmaneuvers her and chops her head off. He doesn't need to be fast enough to blitz to do that.


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## Veracity (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> There is nothing in the Databook or Manga claiming Tsunade to be A's superior in taijutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is nothing in the manga that claims Ay is good at Taijustu at all. Literally nothing. You are assuming everything lol and it isn't backed up by anything. Im not gonna sit here and let you bullshit your way into saying Ay = Tsunade in taijutsu just because its what you want. Tsuande has hype in her taijustu unlike Ay. Tsuande has more than just single strike feats unlike Ay. Tsuande has a maxed DB score unlike Ay. That's the difference.

Can you point it out to me where Ay is a master at nintaijutsu? Not just that he can use it, but that he is in fact a master at using it. Because anything that Ay does is considered nintaijutsu when his body is clad in a lighting aura constantly.

Neji has a 3.5 in taijustu up until Part 2. I don't see Ay possessing more skill then that. Not at all.

☻She didnt have a 5 in taijutsu like current Tsuande does so why does it matter? She's in shape now and wasn't in shape back then. I think you can see the difference.

He tired her by running away. That doesn't have anything to do with taijutsu.

The only hype Base Ay has in speed is from Zetsu. Having fast reactions doesn't equal fast movement speed. It Hardly even matters when his taijutsu is lesser than Tsuandes, and he punches at the same speed as her . Ay gets all his movement speed hype from his cloak.

Without enhancements. Releasing the seal actually boosts ones speed so..

Released seal tsunade > Base tsunade

Having a 3.5 doesn't even incorporate the flicker. And Ay has no reason to have a faster flicker than Tsunades without the Raiton enhancement. 

Prove it.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 7, 2016)

I don't even think Byakugou Tsunade even has a 3.5 in speed to be honest. Seems quite a bit higher IMO.


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## Veracity (Jan 7, 2016)

She doesn't. She's faster than that. I've already proven how tsuande is even faster once she's released the seal. And 3.5 is her Base before Pain arc non flicker speed.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

This taijutsu debate really doesn't matter because it isn't going to make up for the speed & reaction gap. Her movements aren't particularly difficult for shinobi with average speed to anticipate, let alone Raikage. C's comment had to do with both speed & reflexes, so A pretty much just runs circles around her, picks an opening, and severs her head with Raigyaku Suihei.


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## Saru (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> She's too slow to connect cleanly, and I don't see where this "greater taijutsu prowess" comes from. Hell, he was the one lecturing her for being too sloppy against the Susanoos. He outmaneuvers her and chops her head off. He doesn't need to be fast enough to blitz to do that.




A is also a taijutsu expert, but he knows nothing of Tsunade's regen capabilities, which enabled her to fight so recklessly in that instance. Not to mention that A gets put in genjutsu right after that. Tsunade has a 5 in taijutsu in the databook, so clearly Kishimoto places Tsunade high on the ladder in that aspect. This is the same Tsunade who, in her youth, was able to fight alongside Orochimaru and Jiraiya against Hanzo and came out of that ordeal with just as many injuries as her teammates. Mind you, this was before Tsunade had Byakugou or Sozo Saisei, as Orochimaru knew nothing about the latter when he fought with Tsunade in the Sannin Deadlock.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

What does any of that have to do with A...?


----------



## Bringer (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> She's too slow to connect cleanly, and I don't see where this "greater taijutsu prowess" comes from. Hell, he was the one lecturing her for being too sloppy against the Susanoos. He outmaneuvers her and chops her head off. He doesn't need to be fast enough to blitz to do that.



"Hokage, your fighting style's _*getting*_ too sloppy."

Getting, as in, it wasn't before.

Ei's fighting was getting sloppy too, considering he got grabbed by a Susanoo and got placed in a genjutsu.

He was also getting sloppy against Zetsu suit Yamato.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

I know. And..?


----------



## Veracity (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> This taijutsu debate really doesn't matter because it isn't going to make up for the speed & reaction gap. Her movements aren't particularly difficult for shinobi with average speed to anticipate, let alone Raikage. C's comment had to do with both speed & reflexes, so A pretty much just runs circles around her, picks an opening, and severs her head with Raigyaku Suihei.


Uhhh nothing in the Viz translation says Ay is physically fast. I just read the panel you provided and it 100℅ has to do with reactions.

So no I think the taijutsu gap changes everything. Especially considering all tsunade has to do is touch Ay( scrabbles nervous system, or just a glancing blow), while Ay has to get the cleanest out of character strike ever. Naw I ain't seeing it. With her superior taijutsu( and chakra to the feet method) she can easily take a blow to throw a blow and Kill ay anyway.☻


----------



## Saru (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> What does any of that have to do with A...?




My response to your quote? It should be quite obvious which part of my reply corresponds to A's comment. However, you also said you couldn't see where I was getting this "greater taijutsu prowess" idea from, and it's from hype and portrayal. Tsunade fought Hanzo with taijutsu and medical ninjutsu at most and was able to do just as well as Orochimaru and Jiraiya. That alone is, to me, indication of Tsunade's battle prowess.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I know. And..?



Don't try to act like you weren't being disingenuous. 



> Hell, he was the one lecturing her for being too sloppy against the Susanoos.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Uhhh nothing in the Viz translation says Ay is physically fast. I just read the panel you provided and it 100℅ has to do with reactions.



The "I'm surprised they're keeping up" part would be speed buddy. 



Likes boss said:


> So no I think the taijutsu gap changes everything. Especially considering all tsunade has to do is touch Ay( scrabbles nervous system, or just a glancing blow)



A "glancing blow" would do jack shit and Ranshinshō probably isn't going to do anything either since A already runs lightning chakra through his nervous system for fun. 



Likes boss said:


> With her superior taijutsu( and chakra to the feet method) she can easily take a blow to throw a blow and Kill ay anyway



She takes a blow, then Raikage uses his gargantuan reflex gap to parry her counter punch with his free hand. Then he chops her in half.



Saru said:


> However, you also said you couldn't see where I was getting this "greater taijutsu prowess" idea from, and it's from hype and portrayal. Tsunade fought Hanzo with taijutsu and medical ninjutsu at most and was able to do just as well as Orochimaru and Jiraiya. That alone is, to me, indication of Tsunade's battle prowess.



She fought Hanzō off-panel through unknown means with the other Sannin. She didn't fight blow for blow in taijutsu, and they lost that fight anyway. That doesn't make her better than A who's also a specialist in that field.


----------



## Saru (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:
			
		

> She fought Hanzō off-panel through unknown means with the other Sannin. She didn't fight blow for blow in taijutsu, and they lost that fight anyway. That doesn't make her better than A who's also a specialist in that field.




I didn't say that she fought Hanzo blow for blow in taijutsu. I said that taijutsu not backed by regen was her only means of inflicting damage. Indeed, that battle alone does not make Tsunade better than A at taijutsu. Like I said, hype and portrayal, and honestly, I feel that Tsunade has the advantage in both areas.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

She's got run-of-the-mill ninjutsu & genjutsu too, and they didn't inflict much damage to him anyway. I cannot think of one time in the manga where Tsunade's taijutsu is hyped. The only thing she has going for her is the Databook score, but you also have the 3.5 speed, which means she stands no chance against Raikage.


----------



## Saru (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> She's got run-of-the-mill ninjutsu & genjutsu too, and they didn't inflict much damage to him anyway. I cannot think of one time in the manga where Tsunade's taijutsu is hyped. The only thing she has going for her is the Databook score, but you also have the 3.5 speed, which means she stands no chance against Raikage.




The databook never states that someone with less speed gets beaten in taijutsu every time. Tsunade's entire fighting style is based around her not getting hit so that she can heal the other members of her team. I doubt she will have a problem ducking the Raikage's blows. As I said, I have no doubt that Raikage can likewise dodge Tsunade's strikes. But if the two get into an exchange, Tsunade will win that exchange by virtue of her greater strength.


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## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> The databook never states that someone with less speed gets beaten in taijutsu every time.



It's not just having less speed. It's having significantly less speed to the point that it resembles KN0 vs. Sasuke. Without the Three-Tome Sharingan, Sasuke (3.5/5) wasn't able to keep pace with Zero-Tailed Naruto in taijutsu. Tsunade (3.5/5) really doesn't stand much of a chance against A (5/5).



Saru said:


> I doubt she will have a problem ducking the Raikage's blows.



Not with any sort of consistency. On the flip side, A can evade her with incredible consistency because she's going in slow motion to him. 



Saru said:


> As I said, I have no doubt that Raikage can likewise dodge Tsunade's strikes. But if the two get into an exchange, Tsunade will win that exchange by virtue of her greater strength.



Her strength isn't great enough to where he can't block or parry her, and she can't block him at all because of lightsaber hands that will tear her limbs off.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> It isn't a separate "fighting style." It's sidestepping or parrying turtle punches and counter-punching, which is taijutsu about as complicated as Bunshin no Jutsu. You're exaggerating. He doesn't need to bust out B-level acrobatics because Tsunade isn't Sharingan Sasuke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do I need to explain how this:




Is fundamentally incomparable to this:


Which are both fundamentally different from this:



Or how your ability to grapple and wrestle, no matter how high you abilities in it:


Does not translate to your ability to strike and outbox:


Would it do me any good to give you any amount of reasoning when your own is "just because it's Raikage and he's fast and I think he can"?


----------



## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Tsunade is not a boxing champion, and A isn't a professional wrestler for that matter. Even I could beat Mayweather with the speed advantage A has on Tsunade. Your assertion that A is incapable of the basic boxing skills that they teach academy students is insulting.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 7, 2016)

Tsunade smashes ei's face in after a solid mid to high diff Taijutsu fight. Giving her Yin seal advantage gives her a beastly advantage. Without it I could see it going either way, pending we are talking about pt. 2 Tsunade.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 7, 2016)

Your assertion that academy level taijutsu is capable of defeating Tsunade is what's insulting.

If all you needed was tier or tier and a half speed gap and basic elemental flow to defeat Tsunade, someone at some point would have targetted the medic and killed her.  Even moreso when she was a chunin on the frontlines of a war with the ninjas of Kumo-Mclightening speed swords.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Your assertion that academy level taijutsu is capable of defeating Tsunade is what's insulting.



In case you forgot, her strategy is the same strategy that you belittle Raikage for: put all your fucking momentum into one punch. Maybe that's how Kabuto, with his piss poor aptitude for taijutsu and lackluster speed, fought her for an extended period of time until she was out of breath? Maybe Raikage can find time in between the flawless dodging of her sluggish & predictable strikes to actually hit back because it's Raikage and not fucking _Preskip Kabuto._ 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> If all you needed was 4.5-5.0 speed and basic elemental flow to defeat Tsunade, someone at some point would have targetted the medic and killed her.



Gai & Itachi, some of the fastest characters in the series, have fives. Sasuke had a 4.5 and spanked a buttload of ninja without being touched _one fucking time._ Those scores are exceptionally rare. What's more, elemental flow isn't necessarily enough to cut through her. Raikage-level Raiton flow combined with Raikage-level strength that cuts off Hachibi horns is enough to cut through her.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 7, 2016)

As if Tsunade was born with 3.5 speed and wasn't 2.5 or 3 at any point in her career and most Jonin don't average a 4.

I don't think Raikage's strategy is bad.  I just don't think it's good vs someone who does it better.  It'd be like Neji vs Hinata.  Hinata's taijutsu is great, but Neji's better at it.  If Hinata tried to use a different taijutsu style to beat Neji, she'd lose twice as hard because whatever she does isn't as good as her jyuuken.

You're also assuming Raikage adapts to perfectly counter Tsunade's style but Tsunade treats him the same as Kabuto, which is internally stupid.  One of them actually taught someone a different style of taijutsu to smashy smashy, and had another apprentice that focused on mid-range combat and poisons, and it wasn't Raikage.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 7, 2016)

Tsunade focused more on Evasion, and Taijutsu ability to alleviate the flaws that is associated with being a Medical Ninja. Raikage, however, doesn't focus on Evasion technique or Taijutsu ability because he's just accustomed to blitzing his opponents with a powerful strike before they can even react. In that sense, I would say Tsunade's stronger because Raikage lacks his Raiton Armor in this scenario, is less experienced and possesses very little feats in terms of Evasion and Taijutsu ability, and his Speed isn't enough to pressure Tsunade.

 Likewise, Tsunade's much stronger, more experienced in actual Taijutsu, is physically stronger, possesses techniques that can disorient his opponent's through shocking the nervous system, and is more geared towards combating Raikage's wrestling techniques as Raikage is weaker, and it's a rather predictable offense which means Tsunade can simply out-muscle Raikage.

 Tsunade wins. I can't see how she loses to Base Raikage. He gets his nervous system fucked up and gets his arms chopped off, low-diff.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 7, 2016)

> It's "tiers wide" because his natural speed & reflexes are on par with Minato's (prior to any enhancement with lightning)



*Raiton Chakra Mode
*
Raiton Chakra collects on the body, it's a body invigoration ninjutsu. From inside the body lightning gushes out, *the speed of ones nerve transmissions rises.* The body is wrapped in lightning, the jutsu durability is like that of armor. The Raikages' application of it causes their combat power to rise considerably.

It managed to chase Naruto's Bijuu Chakra Mode, however it was inferior to the great speed of the Yellow-Flash.

Your interpretation is wronger than bad translations of Shi's Raikage hype.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 7, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I don't think Raikage's strategy is bad.  I just don't think it's good vs someone who does it better.



Tsunade does it better? Tsunade does it the same, only far, far slower, which means she does it worse. Raikage doesn't have to abandon his entire fighting style. You just seem to think all he knows how to do is run right at somebody and punch. That is wrong. He knows what a counter punch is. He knows what "anticipation" is. He can apply them in combat _wayyyy_ easier than Tsunade can because her movements appear in slow-mo to him and his movements are rather quick to her. This is a stomp. 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> It'd be like Neji vs Hinata.  Hinata's taijutsu is great, but Neji's better at it.



Hinata's taijutsu wasn't great. It was a 2.5. It was largely terrible and she was largely a failure which is why her clan gave up on her and began to focus on Hanabi. This isn't even _close_ to Neji vs. Hinata. Hinata wasn't tiers faster than Neji with comparable taijutsu. 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> One of them actually taught someone a different style of taijutsu to smashy smashy



You are confusing me. Sakura uses smashy smashy too. Actually...didn't she nearly get murked by blind Sasuke?



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Your interpretation is wronger than bad translations of Shi's Raikage hype.



The Viz isn't a bad translation, and the Databook doesn't contradict C anyway.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 8, 2016)

Sakura is an eternal failure and a discrace to beginners.  However in her flashbacks Tsunade told us that the taijutsu used by Konoha medics focuses on anticipation and evasion by wide margins in order to prevent medics from getting caught in any trickery.  It sacrifices your ability to counter-attack to prioritize the safety of medics, and it's actually a style she developed for and taught passed to the medical corpse.  Ironically, Kabuto probably employed that style against her with a hebi-twist, being a Konoha trained medic.

Smashy smashy was a style Tsunade developed for herself partway through the war to keep enemies at bay while she treated battlefied victims.  The AoE of her fists nukes and the threat of a direct hit, along with the terror of using CQC against someone who can one punch you and your whole platoon acted as a deterrent for those who would target a medic and their patients.  As a side effect, it forces people to use large evasions, and leaves them unable to counter-attack effectively, which lets her focus purely on offence.

Her super tank bros style was an emulation of her Hashirama's unkillable no-seals heal sage style, and that was impossible until after she developed byako.

This leaves the question of what Tsunade learned before the war.  Which is either the Senju clan's taijutsu that was tested and proven for decades against the generally faster and sharingan slow-mo future vision cheater eyeballs, or Hiruzen's God-Style taijutsu that reigned above all until retcon, or some combination of both.  Either one should be really good, and she had to be good at it because she was already famed for her taijutsu prowess before developing any of those other styles, and probably had to be in order to develop them.  

This is all from flashbacks and explicit statement by characters, and copied from the databook.  So not me just being all, "Baha, fan theories!"


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## Rocky (Jan 8, 2016)

Even with hidden Senju taijutsu that beats the Sharingan, I will probably remain forever hesitant to move on the matter when hidden Senju taijutsu went MIA against Preskip Kabuto. Saying that she can keep up with Raikage, when her speed is below average for her level and his is _way above average_ for his level, just seems like a pipe dream to me. I just see a recreation of KN0 vs. Two-Tome Sasuke, only Sasuke doesn't even have the Two-Tome. Two-Tome Sasuke is skilled enough to anticipate & read wild animal taijutsu, but Naruto's speed made it too much until the Sharingan upgraded and made Naruto go in slow-mo.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 8, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Even with hidden Senju taijutsu that beats the Sharingan, I will probably remain forever hesitant to move on the matter when hidden Senju taijutsu went MIA against Preskip Kabuto. Saying that she can keep up with Raikage, when her speed is below average for her level and his is _way above average_ for his level, just seems like a pipe dream to me. I just see a recreation of KN0 vs. Two-Tome Sasuke, only Sasuke doesn't even have the Two-Tome. Two-Tome Sasuke is skilled enough to anticipate & read wild animal taijutsu, but Naruto's speed made it too much until the Sharingan upgraded and made Naruto go in slow-mo.



Tsunade landed the final blow every time he tried to mix it up with her.  

Kabuto took a shoulder, and if he hadn't had full knowledge, or Tsunade knew what he was up to, he would have been dead.  He got his nervous system scrambled, and he would have eaten a punch to the face if he didn't know about her blood phobia.  

That's what taijutsu means to me.  It's your ability to come out on top when there's actually physical exchanges, and defend yourself against them.  Speed is your ability to react first and move distances.  Which is great, but not the sole deciding factor.

Also, I said this before and you laughed, but we can see Tobirama's battle tactic used against Kabuto, along with Hashirama's.  Tsunade struck Kabuto with Raishinsho the moment he thought he won, and his guard was lowest.  Exactly the methodology Madara praised Tobirama for.  She did it by feigning defeat and countering, which is akin to Hashirama's clone feint tactic Madara praised him for.  She did both of them when her super strength was gone, and had to rely on something besides her preferred Smashy Smashy.  It was something I noticed when I was trying to see if there was any consistency with the seemingly diverse and limited showings of the Senju Clan, and if they were the exception to the "every clan basically fights the same was," rule in Kishiverse.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 8, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Fanfic Tsunade taijutsu style lmao? Tsunade fought on the same sides a the Uchiha, Hashirama grew up on 3rd world streets with them as mortal enemies.



IMO fanfic style is the one where she hides in the slug and lets it solo.

Tsunade would do that about as much as Ei would spend three day running away from his opponent.

So, do you think Hashirama and Tobirama wouldn't pass on their 3rd world Uchiha slaying taijutsu styles to their children and grandchildren, and the clan would fundamentally change their taijutsu style because it would make Uchiha feel scared?  

The only thing that seemed to change is that they stopped regularly carrying swords later on.  Though Hashi kept his around in scrolls.  

I don't honestly know what taijutsu Tsunade used before the other ones we know for a fact came later, just that it had to be good for her to be famous for it.  Just that the smallest leap is, "from her clan her sensei."  Could not be though.  Maybe Kishi will draw a flashback of Tsunade blowing up a mountain before she canonically developed Strength of 100 and I'll wonder why I bothered with this series.  Again.  For the eleventy-billionth time.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 8, 2016)

You know, on the topic of Tsunade vs Kabuto, although there's mixed opinions on this but I don't think Tsunade was using any chakra enhanced strength against him. 

 shit like this

This ground punch for sure didn't have any chakra in it, and this was before she got her muscles fucked. Now when she did get her muscles fucked, she tackled Kabuto.

 shit like this

And immediately after her tackle did shit, she notices her muscles are fucked. I've raised this point before, but severed muscles shouldn't affect "building the maximum amount of chakra in -insert body part-, then releasing it in an instant" 

What I'm trying to say is... If Tsunade had infused that tackle with some chakra enhanced goodness, Kabuto would've lost. Tsunade had no reason to believe her natural strength would fail her because she noticed after her tackle did shit.



Sadness on Wheels said:


> IMO fanfic style is the one where she hides in the slug and lets it solo.
> 
> Tsunade would do that about as much as Ei would spend three day running away from his opponent.



Hey now, hiding in Katsuyu, having a Katsuyu on her arm to shoot acid like a squirt gun, and hiding in one out of thousands of body sized Katsuyu's that are approaching an enemy so Tsunade can get close with a surprise attack are totally valid strategies


----------



## Veracity (Jan 8, 2016)

Rocky said:


> The "I'm surprised they're keeping up" part would be speed buddy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Raikage got there in V1 . So no. They weren't keeping up with base Ay but RnY Ay.

☻A glancing blow is rupturing organs and caving his chest in. He might not look like Madara, but he will easily lose his ability to fight. The raikage while clad in lighting armor was pierced by the same chidori that equals a base resengan. The resengan naruto used was this big:  shit like this
Around 100 times bigger than a palm sized resengan + Onnoki used doton to increase the power of the attack. All of that did less damage than a single kick from tsunade. An attack like that would obliterate base Ay. Tsuande doesn't need anything close to her full strength to end Ay.

I don't see why Ays network wouldn't be fucked up. His RnY tech is trying to help him as opposed to hindering him.. I doubt he was harmed while initially learning the techniques.

Bruh no . Ay isn't catching a chakra exploding punch without his fist being pushed through his own chest. Do you not realize the significant gap in strength between them? This isn't the anime where Tsuande was marginally a better arm wrestler. We use the manga in which Ay inflicts no serious damage on Madara while the force of tsunades punch lands at madaras chest and creates a shockwave powerful enough to obliterate his arm while creating an opening for tsuandes whole body to fly through.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 8, 2016)

Raikage moves the side of her haymakers and chops her limbs off. gg

Like I said, give me a tiers wide speed advantage and lightsabers, and I'll take Bruce Lee to the woodshed. His maneuvers are a whole lot less complicated to read when he moves in slow motion.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 8, 2016)

Severed muscles affects Tsunade's strength, hence why Kabuto states:

 typical interceptions

 Personally, Tsunade's Strength seems similar to a Shunshin except the users releases their chakra instantaneously to enhance their strength considerably whereas a perfected Shunshin could be attained by releasing all of their chakra within their feet instantaneously. 

 I don't see anyone using a Max Speed Shunshin when their legs are fucked up honestly. Same situation here, I don't see Tsunade being able to use her maximum strength when her biceps and abdomen are severed.


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## Veracity (Jan 8, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Raikage moves the side of her haymakers and chops her limbs off. gg
> 
> Like I said, give me a tiers wide speed advantage and lightsabers, and I'll take Bruce Lee to the woodshed. His maneuvers are a whole lot less complicated to read when he moves in slow motion.


Were gonna have to agree to disagree here. I don't see Ay being fast enough that it makes a huge difference . It reminds me of Kakashi( 4.5 + MS sharingan) vs Hidan( 3.5). Where even though kakashi should have been way faster, he was still being forced to parry hidans attacks. The only difference is that Ay gets destroyed if he attempts to parry tsunade.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 8, 2016)

Well, Kakashi was forced to parry due to being cautious and caught off-guard by Kakuzu's attacks.


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## Bringer (Jan 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Severed muscles affects Tsunade's strength, hence why Kabuto states:
> 
> tiers wide
> 
> ...



Well what I'm saying is Tsunade has natural strength, and chakra enhanced strength. 

tiers wide

This punch here was not done with chakra enhanced strength. I really doubt beginning of Part 2 Sakura has superior chakra enhanced strength than Tsunade. 

I don't think chakra enhanced strength actually makes a ninja physically strong. The chakra bursts from the fist to the object. 



> People in general are liable to acknowledge it as super-strength, but this is an application of medical ninjutsu that demands concentration and minute chakra control. Maximal chakra is instantly kneaded inside the body, and all of it is enclosed into the right fist at a moment's notice!!*That chakra is dispersed into the target with the impact of the punch, propagating the damage into its every nook and corner!*



From the databook. Severed muscles ain't affecting that. 

Tsunade can probably kill someone with average ninja durability with one of her regular punches, so there was no need for chakra against Kabuto. Kabuto was referring to her natural strength.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 8, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Well what I'm saying is Tsunade has natural strength, and chakra enhanced strength.
> 
> tiers wide
> 
> This punch here was not done with chakra enhanced strength. I really doubt beginning of Part 2 Sakura has superior chakra enhanced strength than Tsunade.



 How do you know that? Tsunade was fatigued, so it's certainly not unusual to believe that this was a Chakra Enhanced Punch from a Fatigued Tsunade.



> I don't think chakra enhanced strength actually makes a ninja physically strong. The chakra bursts from the fist to the object.


 
 It actually does:

 tiers wide

 Chakra can enhance one's actual physical strength.



> From the databook. Severed muscles ain't affecting that.



 Again, Kabuto's statement contradicts your belief.

 The Databook scan doesn't contradict me at all. Chakra is dispersed at the impact of the punch meaning that your actual strength has a lot to do with it. Even then, that functions on the same principles as Chakra Enhancing your strength except it adds an extra step to the process which is then releasing it outwards



> Tsunade can probably kill someone with average ninja durability with one of her regular punches, so there was no need for chakra against Kabuto. Kabuto was referring to her natural strength.



 She had killer intent, so she would've killed him if she could.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> How do you know that? Tsunade was fatigued, so it's certainly not unusual to believe that this was a Chakra Enhanced Punch from a Fatigued Tsunade.



Or she was fatigued so she switched to natural strength to conserve chakra. 





> It actually does:
> 
> tiers wide
> 
> Chakra can enhance one's actual physical strength.



The thing is, we're talking about the Okasho(Cherry Blossom Impact...Yep...That's the name) not whatever that is. "Chakra Enhanced Strength" is a fanon name. The thing that makes Sakura go punchy punchy is dubbed Okasho. 




> Again, Kabuto's statement contradicts your belief.
> 
> The Databook scan doesn't contradict me at all. Chakra is dispersed at the impact of the punch meaning that your actual strength has a lot to do with it. Even then, that functions on the same principles as Chakra Enhancing your strength except it adds an extra step to the process which is then releasing it outwards



"That chakra is dispersed into the target with the impact of the punch, propagating the damage into its every nook and corner!"

Why would severed muscles effect chakra being dispersed into a target. Would severed muscles effect a chakra transfer too? Would severed muscles effect the Shosen technique?(And before you pull out dat Tsunade needed hand seals she latered healed Naruto without hand seals while her muscles were still fucked) 





> She had killer intent, so she would've killed him if she could.



If Kabuto got hit by a natural punch he'd be fucked. When natural strength wouldn't cut it due to severed muscles, she never got a proper chance to switch to chakra enhanced strength.

*Kabuto hits her muscles
*Tsunade tackles him
*She then realizes her natural strength is fucked
*She's on her knees with fucked up muscles on one of her legs
*Kabuto hits her chest
*She can't breathe
*She uses the body disturbance technique on him
*She then punches him with a natural punch with fucked up muscles, remember, Kabuto was in a vulnerable state where he could be offed effortlessly by a kunai, there was no need to use a chakra enhanced punch there
*Tsunade heals herself
*Kabuto figures out how to move under the affect of the technique, which surprises Tsunade because she thought he'd take much longer, because she was probably going to off him in any numerous chakraless ways


----------



## Veracity (Jan 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Well, Kakashi was forced to parry due to being cautious and caught off-guard by Kakuzu's attacks.


Naw . I've analyzed Those skirmishes quite a bit, and there were times where it was just kakashi fighting hidan. And with a 1.5 speed gap without even factoring in the sharingan, Kakashi should have seen hidan moving in slow motion as per Rocky's statements.

And Sakura hasn't ever been hyped to be physically strong. Not even in the databook I don't think. It was actually heavily implied that Sakura became a heavy hitter during the Juubi Arc solely because of her chakra control and released seal. So I don't think actual strength has too much to do with CES. I think its both.


----------



## hbcaptain (Jan 8, 2016)

When you look at P1 punches, it's retty obvious that 99% of Tsunade's strengh is du to chakra control and Byakugou , well especially Byakugo since Sakura is about 100 times stronger when she use it .


----------



## Amol (Jan 8, 2016)

Tsunade obviously.
She is better at Taijutsu and has few times bigger strength than him.
They will trade blows and A will lose limbs in process.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 8, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Were gonna have to agree to disagree here. I don't see Ay being fast enough that it makes a huge difference.



Well, then you're either downplaying the Raikage's speed or overrating Tsunade's. He's the world's fastest man. She's one of only two ninja of such high stature to possess such a low score, and the other one is Hidan, the self-admitted slowest of the Akatsuki. It makes a _huge_ difference.      



Likes boss said:


> It reminds me of Kakashi( 4.5 + MS sharingan) vs Hidan( 3.5).



Lol, they traded like three blows. Hidan ambushed Kakashi, and the copy ninja fended him off with a Kunai. Kakashi was playing _defense_, probably because he was low on stamina and _Hidan is fucking immortal._ Stabbing Hidan with that Kunai wouldn't have done much of anything but drain Kakashi further. Besides, if Kakashi was fresh & could use Raikiri casually, and Hidan didn't get the jump on him, it would probably look something like this.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 8, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Or she was fatigued so she switched to natural strength to conserve chakra.



 And yet she later used Creation Rebirth and decided to throw a giant ass sword against Manda. I doubt Chakra Enhanced Strength was an issue.



> The thing is, we're talking about the Okasho(Cherry Blossom Impact...Yep...That's the name) not whatever that is. "Chakra Enhanced Strength" is a fanon name. The thing that makes Sakura go punchy punchy is dubbed Okasho.



 And that doesn't refute the fact that it is Chakra Enhanced Strength. The user stores Chakra within their arms which enhances their strength as I already displayed in my scan and then takes it to another level by releasing it outwards.

 Sasuke did the exact same thing against Haku during the Wave Arc to further enhance his speed.



> "That chakra is dispersed into the target with the impact of the punch, propagating the damage into its every nook and corner!"
> 
> Why would severed muscles effect chakra being dispersed into a target. Would severed muscles effect a chakra transfer too? Would severed muscles effect the Shosen technique?(And before you pull out dat Tsunade needed hand seals she latered healed Naruto without hand seals while her muscles were still fucked)



 Because Chakra is used to enhance the impact of the punch with the chakra being emitted at the last instant.

 Why wouldn't severed muscles affect her CES? Physical Energy is stored within the cells and her organs were literally damaged which are connected to the Inner Coils:

probably look something like this.

 The Inner Coils are branches that carry out chakra throughout your entire body and surrounds all of the organs. If Kabuto severed some of her organs, that literally means that he also severed through part of the Inner Coils which is associated with chakra distribution of the body.

 It seems illogical to me that she can simply use CES with damaged organs and  severed muscles.



> If Kabuto got hit by a natural punch he'd be fucked. When natural strength wouldn't cut it due to severed muscles, she never got a proper chance to switch to chakra enhanced strength.



 And this is based on what exactly?


----------



## Bringer (Jan 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> And yet she later used Creation Rebirth and decided to throw a giant ass sword against Manda. I doubt Chakra Enhanced Strength was an issue.



That was after the seal was released. 




> And that doesn't refute the fact that it is Chakra Enhanced Strength. The user stores Chakra within their arms which enhances their strength as I already displayed in my scan and then takes it to another level by releasing it outwards.



Okasho and the thing you linked are two different things. 



> Sasuke did the exact same thing against Haku during the Wave Arc to further enhance his speed.



Okasho and body flicker are two different things. 





> Because Chakra is used to enhance the impact of the punch with the chakra being emitted at the last instant.



I don't know where you got the red from. 



> Why wouldn't severed muscles affect her CES? Physical Energy is stored within the cells and her organs were literally damaged which are connected to the Inner Coils:
> 
> probably look something like this.
> 
> ...



Chakra scalpel isn't gentle fist. 

And yet she can use other techniques just fine with severed muscles. Hell, body disturbance is the user turning their chakra into electricity and pouring it into the enemy.



> By transforming the chakra within one's body and giving it the properties of electricity, one creates an electric field. By pouring this into the nervous system of one's opponent, one deranges their body control!



Now, where is this chakra flowing through... Her hands. What does this and Okasho have in common. The chakra goes from the users hands into the enemies. 




> And this is based on what exactly?



Well she has a 5 for strength in the databook. Look what Kakazu's kick did to Kakashi. Or what Gai's punch did to the sound fodder. Or... Okay Kisame has never punched someone. 

Databook doesn't account for chakra enhanced strength or body flicker technique. Chakra or not, Kabuto wouldn't want to take a punch from Tsunade. It might not kill him, but it will probably fuck him up, hence why I said "If Kabuto got hit by a natural punch he'd be fucked"


----------



## Rocky (Jan 8, 2016)

Actually, Kisame has punched someone before. [1]


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 8, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> That was after the seal was released.



 I know. Stamina wasn't an issue because she lifted a giant ass sword for a considerable distance despite the Seal being released which weakens her life force.




> Okasho and the thing you linked are two different things.



 Is it?

 1



			
				Kakashi said:
			
		

> * She builds up the maximum amount of chakra in her fist *, then releases it in an instant.






> Okasho and body flicker are two different things.



 I'm not going to bother refuting that unless you explain why.




> I don't know where you got the red from.






			
				Kakashi said:
			
		

> * She builds up the maximum amount of chakra in her fist *, then releases it in an instant.


 



> Chakra scalpel isn't gentle fist.



 Doesn't matter.

 Chakra Scalpels pierced through her chest and targeted her organs with the Inner Coils surrounding the organ. Targeting the organ requires targeting the Inner Coils as well.



> And yet she can use other techniques just fine with severed muscles. Hell, body disturbance is the user turning their chakra into electricity and pouring it into the enemy.



 Ah, so Tsunade can manipulate Raiton Chakra and shock a person's nervous system which is an A Rank technique yet Tsunade wants to conserve chakra instead of using her CES? 




> Now, where is this chakra flowing through... Her hands. What does this and Okasho have in common. The chakra goes from the users hands into the enemies.



 Refuted. 



> Well she has a 5 for strength in the databook. Look what Kakazu's kick did to Kakashi. Or what Gai's punch did to the sound fodder. Or... Okay Kisame has never punched someone.



 Kakuzu arguably used Domu and with the feats in the manga, Kakuzu's own normal physical strength can't knock Kakashi that far and cause multiple trees to collapse.



> Databook doesn't account for chakra enhanced strength or body flicker technique. Chakra or not, Kabuto wouldn't want to take a punch from Tsunade. It might not kill him, but it will probably fuck him up, hence why I said "If Kabuto got hit by a natural punch he'd be fucked"



 Well actually, I might agree with this.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I know. Stamina wasn't an issue because she lifted a giant ass sword for a considerable distance despite the Seal being released which weakens her life force.



You do know Yin seal and Creation Rebirth aren't a package deal, right?

Yin seal- A seal that Tsunade uses to store chakra

Creation rebirth- A regeneration technique

Opening the seal doesn't make her weaker, it more or less gives her a second chakra pool which she uses to fuel regeneration. As for creation rebirth, the "weakening her life force" side affect doesn't kick in immediately after it is used(also the side effect is shortened life span, not weaker life force) 





> Is it?
> 
> 1



Yes, the thing you linked with Naruto and the frog doesn't involve "releasing the chakra in an instant". The chakra causes the smashy smashy, not the muscles. Chakra scalpel doesn't affect chakra. 







> I'm not going to bother refuting that unless you explain why.



Cherry Blossom Impact unleashes chakra into things causing them to go SMASH. It's only chakra doing the work. 

Body flicker technique is nothing like that. The only thing the databook says about body flicker mechanically is this

" In reality, the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds. The amount of chakra used up differs depending on the distance and elevation of their stopping point in comparison to the starting points."

compare with 

"Maximal chakra is instantly kneaded inside the body, and all of it is enclosed into the right fist at a moment's notice!! That chakra is dispersed into the target with the impact of the punch, propagating the damage into its every nook and corner!"





> Doesn't matter.
> 
> Chakra Scalpels pierced through her chest and targeted her organs with the Inner Coils surrounding the organ. Targeting the organ requires targeting the Inner Coils as well.



You're giving chakra scalpel an ability it has never done before. It can't fuck with the chakra system. It's not gentle fist, and "doesn't matter" is not an argument to that point. Kishi would've mentioned her chakra network being damaged if that were the case. 




> Ah, so Tsunade can manipulate Raiton Chakra and shock a person's nervous system which is an A Rank technique yet Tsunade wants to conserve chakra instead of using her CES?



Pretty much, after she couldn't fucking breathe she realized that she needed to use chakra to buy her time to heal herself. A natural punch wasn't going to cut it with fucked up muscles, a chakra enhanced punch carried the chance of a medical ninja like Kabuto surviving and then attacking her while she healed,  so her safest bet was the body disturbance technique. 






> Refuted.



When


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 8, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> You do know Yin seal and Creation Rebirth aren't a package deal, right?
> 
> Yin seal- A seal that Tsunade uses to store chakra
> 
> ...



 Except the Yin Seal was gone meaning there was no more chakra within the Yin Seal to act as an extra source of chakra. Of course, the side-effect doesn't kick in immediately, but Tsunade certainly felt it rather quickly after she released the seal for the entire village against Pain's CST.



> Yes, the thing you linked with Naruto and the frog doesn't involve "releasing the chakra in an instant". The chakra causes the smashy smashy, not the muscles. Chakra scalpel doesn't affect chakra.



Except a step in the process of CES is storing maximal chakra within the fist. My scan displays how the act of storing chakra within a particular point can increase your physical strength.




> Cherry Blossom Impact unleashes chakra into things causing them to go SMASH. It's only chakra doing the work.
> 
> Body flicker technique is nothing like that. The only thing the databook says about body flicker mechanically is this
> 
> ...



 Again, multiple instances have involved people Flickering by releasing all of their chakra instantaneously. We've witnessed that with Hebi Sasuke vs. Team Yamato, KCM Naruto vs. V1 Raikage, and Sasuke vs. Haku where both exploded off the ground at a particular instant to enhance their speed.



> You're giving chakra scalpel an ability it has never done before. It can't fuck with the chakra system. It's not gentle fist, and "doesn't matter" is not an argument to that point. Kishi would've mentioned her chakra network being damaged if that were the case.



 No I'm not. Gentle Fist enables one to bypass the exterior by releasing chakra completely to target the internal body. Chakra Scalpels literally target the exterior directly and pierces through it to reach the organs.




> Pretty much, after she couldn't fucking breathe she realized that she needed to use chakra to buy her time to heal herself. A natural punch wasn't going to cut it with fucked up muscles, a chakra enhanced punch carried the chance of a medical ninja like Kabuto surviving and then attacking her while she healed,  so her safest bet was the body disturbance technique.



 Medical Ninja don't possess extraordinary durability, not to mention that there's no implication that Tsunade literally thought he was resilient. The only thing she commended him for was his speed, combat instincts, and his skill in medical ninjutsu, not durability. The reason why she couldn't beat him with CES was because of her severed muscles and damaged organs, nothing more, nothing less.



> When



 Oh, looks like I skimmed through your post w/o reading it properly.

 But actually, I did partially refute it. Her Body Disturbance technique, while it does function in a similar fashion, the entire effect of it is relatively different as the Body Disturbance technique mainly inserts the chakra within the person's body to disrupt their nervous system whereas her CES stores chakra within her fists to enhance her own physical strength and then releases it ouward onto the environment in an instant. There's a reason why Gentle Fist isn't physically powerful despite releasing chakra because it simply inserts chakra into the person's body to affect specific part(s) of their interior, much like how the Body Disturbance technique releases chakra to target the nervous system.


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## Bringer (Jan 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Except the Yin Seal was gone meaning there was no more chakra within the Yin Seal to act as an extra source of chakra. Of course, the side-effect doesn't kick in immediately, but Tsunade certainly felt it rather quickly after she released the seal for the entire village against Pain's CST.



It was gone because Tsunade didn't reform the seal yet using whatever leftover chakra. You don't think she used all of the seals chakra during that fight, do you?

Also she didn't even use creation rebirth during the pain invasion. Her life span wasn't shortened during pain invasion. She fell into a coma because she poured all of her base reserves and seal reserves into Katsuyu to protect the villagers. She had no chakra left. 





> Except a step in the process of CES is storing maximal chakra within the fist. My scan displays how the act of storing chakra within a particular point can increase your physical strength.



Okay, but I'm talking about releasing the chakra. Releasing chakra that is stored up shouldn't be affected by severed muscles. 

We're going in circles here  





> Again, multiple instances have involved people Flickering by releasing all of their chakra instantaneously. We've witnessed that with Hebi Sasuke vs. Team Yamato, KCM Naruto vs. V1 Raikage, and Sasuke vs. Haku where both exploded off the ground at a particular instant to enhance their speed.



Databook doesn't say "releasing chakra instantly". But Manga>>>Databook anyway, can I have a panel of characters saying these exact words "He moved fast by releasing chakra instantaneously!" or at least something close to that. 

Also the difference still persists. One is for strength, one is for speed. 





> No I'm not. Gentle Fist enables one to bypass the exterior by releasing chakra completely to target the internal body. Chakra Scalpels literally target the exterior directly and pierces through it to reach the organs.



If chakra scalpel fucked with chakra Kishi would've said so. May I have a scan of Kabuto fucking with someone's chakra with chakra scalpel. 




> Medical Ninja don't possess extraordinary durability, not to mention that there's no implication that Tsunade literally thought he was resilient. The only thing she commended him for was his speed, combat instincts, and his skill in medical ninjutsu, not durability. The reason why she couldn't beat him with CES was because of her severed muscles and damaged organs, nothing more, nothing less.



Well Shin survived Sakura's punch. Tsunade probably didn't want him healing himself with Shosen while she's healing her... Whatever Kabuto struck to make Tsunade unable to breathe. 





> Oh, looks like I skimmed through your post w/o reading it properly.
> 
> But actually, I did partially refute it. Her Body Disturbance technique, while it does function in a similar fashion, the entire effect of it is relatively different as the Body Disturbance technique mainly inserts the chakra within the person's body to disrupt their nervous system whereas her CES stores chakra within her fists to enhance her own physical strength and then releases it ouward onto the environment in an instant. There's a reason why Gentle Fist isn't physically powerful despite releasing chakra because it simply inserts chakra into the person's body to affect specific part(s) of their interior, much like how the Body Disturbance technique releases chakra to target the nervous system.



Both still involve releasing chakra, which you say should be affected by Kabuto's chakra scalpel, which it clearly wasn't. No amount of grasping and reaching can change that.

As for the red... Again where are you getting that? What would be the point of releasing the chakra outward if the chakra already gives them super strength when it's in their fist? The databook doesn't even say the red in the Okasho description.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 8, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Besides, if Kakashi was fresh & could use Raikiri casually, and Hidan didn't get the jump on him, it would probably look something like this.



_It_ _wouldn't_.


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## Rocky (Jan 8, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> _It_ _wouldn't_.



I'm not sure what those prove. They don't take away from the fact that he was _concerned about his stamina_ back when Hidan jumped him. It is _very_ possible that he did not want to tire himself further by cutting through Hidan's scythe when Kakuzu still had to be dealt with, unlike later when Naruto & Yamato were there, and then after Kakuzu had been defeated. Not to mention, high speed requires stamina in and of itself, and Kakashi didn't have problems reacting to Hidan anyway. He was clearly playing defense.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 8, 2016)

Concerning stamina, using one Raikiri to finish Hidan in CQC quickly while Kakuzu wasn't interfering would've been the best option for him.

Instead, he wasted more chakra and physical energy running from him for a sustained period, accomplishing nothing other than giving Hidan a feel for his movement style in the process.

The first time he ran from Hidan, he was nearly obliterated by a wind variant and was forced to use a Double Raikiri to save Shikamaru & company, accomplishing nothing, and wasting chakra by using the same technique twice that he could have defeated Hidan with by using once if he'd simply moved at him with the intent to kill instead of leaping back. 

According to you, of course.


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## Rocky (Jan 8, 2016)

Using Raikiri wouldn't have finished anything because Raikiri wouldn't kill Hidan, and Kakuzu could just reattach any severed limbs. And "sustained period" is a gross exaggeration. The maybe traded around three blows.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 8, 2016)

If he stuck his hand in Hidan's head with his fastest arm thrust already enhanced by the initial velocity of his fastest shunshin and the added force of Hidan already moving at high speed it would've exploded, defeating Hidan.

The question is whether or not he could do it, because Kakashi running is the complete opposite of what you should do when you're low on stamina. 

The only reason I can come up with is he lacked the ability to do what is written in the first sentence above, otherwise, low on chakra and options, he should have taken advantage of Hidan rushing toward (perfect situation for Sharingan) vulnerable to counter attack alone with Kakuzu on the outskirts looking in.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 8, 2016)

Such a concern as that would have given him more incentive to go ahead and get it over with (looking at the scan you linked to that's _actually what he said_...). Kakuzu still would have had to be dealt with but that'd have been preferable to clashing thrice with someone who only needs a drop of your blood and then having to keep dealing with both Kakuzu _and Hidan_ later on.

If Kakashi were smart he would have simply used another Raikiri and ended Hidan right there instead...._unless_ it wasn't going to be that simple for him...



Er...basically what _DaVizWiz_ said.


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## Rocky (Jan 8, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> The only reason I can come up with is he lacked the ability to do what is written in the first sentence above



Or he just didn't want to. I don't really care why. We know he didn't lack the ability, because he didn't lack the ability to handle Zabuza with Raikiri, and Zabuza is faster than Hidan, comparatively skilled, and had a weapon of similar size. 

Kakashi didn't use Raikiri on Hidan. It isn't like he tried and Hidan stopped him. He didn't try at all, and you can feel free to speculate as to why, but the bottom line is that he never even flowed an ounce of lighting chakra into his hand.



			
				FR said:
			
		

> If Kakashi were smart he would have simply used another Raikiri and ended Hidan right there instead



Well, then I suppose he wasn't being smart there...


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## FlamingRain (Jan 8, 2016)

I wouldn't make a habit of concluding that characters must be stupid when they act in a way that suggests something contrary to some presupposition or another.

I don't do that elsewhere and I wouldn't start with that event because Kakashi is an extremely smart character already, and at that point had seen Hidan in action.


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## Rocky (Jan 8, 2016)

I guess he forgot when Raikiri did then, because that probably would have cut through Hidan's scythe and made it pretty easy to just go on and stab him. You only really have a point here if he had used Raikiri to try that and Hidan did something to stop it from happening, but that isn't what we saw...so Kakashi wasn't being smart.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 8, 2016)

Or you could be like me and say that it most likely wouldn't have made it so easy _because_ Kakashi, who we already know _is_ smart and at that point familiar with Hidan, didn't even bother to use it.

_We don't have to_ see him try giving Hidan the Zabuza treatment and fail.


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## Rocky (Jan 8, 2016)

He didn't bother to use it and instead opted to parry Hidan's attacks with a regular Kunai. The only excuse for not using it is the belief that he couldn't use it on the fly.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 8, 2016)

Kakashi emphasized how proper Chakra Control requires more Stamina. Of course, he also emphasized how being physically engaged in combat hinders your ability to properly control your chakra. It's because of that that higher level of chakra control is needed if he wants to use Raikiri on the fly which requires more stamina.

 However, Kakashi could've potentially used Raikiri while combating Hidan, but he obviously was concerned about his Chakra levels and was concerned about Kakuzu's abilities because he knew he was the strongest.

 Personally, I think Kakashi didn't want to waste even more Chakra using Raikiri on the fly when he knew that he was the most equipped in dealing with Kakuzu.


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## Veracity (Jan 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Well, then you're either downplaying the Raikage's speed or overrating Tsunade's. He's the world's fastest man. She's one of only two ninja of such high stature to possess such a low score, and the other one is Hidan, the self-admitted slowest of the Akatsuki. It makes a _huge_ difference.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, they traded like three blows. Hidan ambushed Kakashi, and the copy ninja fended him off with a Kunai. Kakashi was playing _defense_, probably because he was low on stamina and _Hidan is fucking immortal._ Stabbing Hidan with that Kunai wouldn't have done much of anything but drain Kakashi further. Besides, if Kakashi was fresh & could use Raikiri casually, and Hidan didn't get the jump on him, it would probably look something like this.


Or you just underestimate tsuandes close quarter ability.☻ Which falls perfectly in line with what everyone else on this thread thinks. You haven't swayed anyone in this thread to believe that Base Ay is as fast as you think. Thats probably because you are assuming a lot. He got praised by a zetsu clone and is said to have fast reactions. That doesn't stop his movement speed from failing to ever be shown impressive or stop his striking ability to equal that of Tsunades. I mean if you want to go by the most genuine canon source, then Tsunade on panel has better movement feats than base Ay.

Ay is the fastest man while clad in armor. Naruto and Sasuke both dont get all their☻ ridiculous hype in base. I see the same for Ay basically. And tsuande is also one of very few to have a perfect taijutsu score as well as byakago to boost speed. 

Doesn't matter if they traded 3 blows. If Ay traded three blows with tsunade he would be in pieces. And naw I disagree. If Ay is suppose to be that ridiculously faster in CQC than tsuanade than Kakashi should have been able to side step his swing casually and completely avoided confrontation. Or planted a well placed kick and sent him flying. Or even casually lighting blade his limb off with his vastly superior reactions and speed.


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

I'm not underestimating shit. Must I go get the scans of Kabuto wearing her down? Being "back in shape" isn't making up for the rather vast gap between Kabuto and fucking Raikage. He's got full knowledge on her strength, so that cements it. She cannot touch him.

Unless that Yin Seal dramatically boosts speed, _which it has never been said to do_, then she is fucked.


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## Veracity (Jan 9, 2016)

Concession accepted?

If you are resorting to feats you have already dismissed as bullshit then your argument is steadily going downhill. I mean comparing part 1( 20 years out of combat) rusty + exhausted tsuande to Hokage Yin boosted Tsunade is a terrible argument. And we all know that.

She's got full knowledge on his barely faster speed...

Yin seal has canonically boosted speed via feats. It doesn't have to be said like Base Ay being fast( movement speed) has never ever been said.


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I mean comparing part 1( 20 years out of combat) rusty + exhausted tsuande to Hokage Yin boosted Tsunade is a terrible argument. And we all know that.



"Yin Seal boosted" is irrelevant because the only jutsu she uses it to aid are restricted. I'm going to use her Part I feats because her only other feats come against giant chakra constructs that aren't particularly difficult to hit. 

Yeah, I know she's going to be marginally better than how she was against Kabuto because she's not as rusty. If only she were fighting Kabuto and not Raikage. 



Likes boss said:


> She's got full knowledge on his barely faster speed



Tiers faster. She's slower than the Rock Lee that fought Gaara. 



Likes boss said:


> Yin seal has canonically boosted speed via feats



Bullshit. Your subjective interpretation of her feats ≠ Canon. 



Likes boss said:


> Base Ay being fast( movement speed) has never ever been said.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 9, 2016)

I'm going to use Sakura's genin feats because she didn't do anything in part 2.  That should give me a good indication of how her matches go.

I'll use Ei's PI feats as well, and base my opinion of him off Kabuto's statement that old Hiruzen is the strongest kage.  Tsunade is better and faster than old Hiruzen, so she should have no trouble with Ei.

We Strategos now.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 9, 2016)

In seriousness, we should use everyone's current stats from the latest Databook, and compare Ei's given score to Tsunade's Databook 4 score.  That should give us the most accurate depiction of how they rate by numbers from the mind of the author himself.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 9, 2016)

> Bullshit. Your subjective interpretation of her feats ≠ Canon.



That's rich considering you had no problem subjectively interpreting Zetsu's statement into an empirical number you assigned to Raikage.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 9, 2016)

If only he were fighting White Zetsu and not Tsunade.

The unimproved White Zetsu.  Unlike the ones supercharge with Yamato.  The ones Hinata could kill.  I we can take PI Hinata's speed feats vs Neji, and say they're marginally faster than that, then downgrade them a bit to get the weaker version Ei fought. Then we make Raikage fast in comparison to that one, and I'm pretty sure PI Lee blitzes Ei.  Haku for sure.


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## LostSelf (Jan 9, 2016)

If Ei only increases his reflexes, means base Ei should have the speed of his V2 without the Raiton cloack, but just unable to use it for obvious reasons.

If that's so, he should be tiers faster. If in base he has the same or near reflexes as Minato, then the speed difference should make a good difference here, IMO.

4 posts straight. Sadness got motivated .


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 9, 2016)

It annoys me when a good poster is disingenuous.


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I'm going to use Sakura's genin feats because she didn't do anything in part 2.  That should give me a good indication of how her matches go.



Sakura had just started out as a ninja. Tsunade was fifty. Lol at that comparison. It isn't like Tsunade went back to the village and started some next-level training regiment either. She was Hokage, which means she was swamped with paperwork. She held the same position that made Naruto rusty in the Gaiden. There is like no feasible way that she is going from struggling to tag Kabuto to tagging Raikage. Kishimoto did not retcon her speed, because the Databook stat is from around the Pain Arc...and she got a 3.5. 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> That's rich considering you had no problem subjectively interpreting Zetsu's statement into an empirical number you assigned to Raikage.



It's more Zetsu & C's statements combined with the fact that _Raikage is obviously a speed focused character._ 

He would have gotten a 5. 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> If only he were fighting White Zetsu and not Tsunade.



I'd love it if you didn't take my posts out of context. A scan of Raikage being called "super fast" is the only response I need to this:



> Base Ay being fast( movement speed) has never ever been said.



Besides, Zetsu wasn't going around drooling over everybody's speed in the war, so I don't want to here "herpa derp it's a Zetsu." Now, why don't you show me where Tsunade was called "super fast", or just "fast", or even "she's okay for a jōnin". The only competent opponent that she's ever tried to hit that wasn't fifty feet tall is Kabuto, who had no problem evading _all_ of her blows. Get this "the speed gap won't matter" shit out of here until Tsunade proves he can step to the verse's best speedsters.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 9, 2016)

Base Raikage is kinda far from "Narutoverse Best Speedsters" group.


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

Not really. To me the "best speedsters" group starts at base Gai.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 9, 2016)

That is _quite_ a big group of people. With some being able to outright blitz the others.


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> That is _quite_ a big group of people. With some being able to outright blitz the others.



It's not nearly as big as the entire Narutoverse cast. I don't really care to debate semantics.


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## Veracity (Jan 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> "Yin Seal boosted" is irrelevant because the only jutsu she uses it to aid are restricted. I'm going to use her Part I feats because her only other feats come against giant chakra constructs that aren't particularly difficult to hit.
> 
> Yeah, I know she's going to be marginally better than how she was against Kabuto because she's not as rusty. If only she were fighting Kabuto and not Raikage.
> 
> ...


No?. Yin boosts her speed and her striking ability as its huge increase in chakra. 

So you're still going to use those feats as even though I've explained how there's is a massive differnce between that tsuande and current tsuande. No not a marginal difference, but a MASSIVE DIFFERENCE. Tsunade also has some better feats that you don't like to even consider. Like blitzing Oro, or the Tanto feat, or kicking under Madaras guard, or swatting away the fire balls before base Ay could even move, or keeping up with Onnokis flight speed.

☻Rock Lee that fought Gaara doesn't use flicker, or have a Yin seal. Or a 5 in taijutsu for that matter.

Your interpretation of base Ay being fast doesn't equal canon 

And how he blitzed a zetsu clone? I wonder what other characters can do that..


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Like blitzing Oro



That didn't happen. She got the jump on him because she _unexpectedly stopped trembling._ Notice Orochimaru attributed himself being hit to that and not her _raw speed. _



Likes boss said:


> or the Tanto feat



I'd like to know how the Tanto feat overrides what happened against Kabuto..



Likes boss said:


> or kicking under Madaras guard



Looks like Madara blocked that to me. 



Likes boss said:


> or swatting away the fire balls before base Ay could even move



He made no attempt to move. She out sped Mei's attempt to use Suiton. 



Likes boss said:


> or keeping up with Onnokis flight speed.



She got to Susanoo _after he carried A to Madara._ 



Likes boss said:


> And how he blitzed a zetsu clone? I wonder what other characters can do that..



No, because he was called "super fast". Also because he was said to rival Minato. RCM is how he could step to Minato's Flying Raijin.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> It's not nearly as big as the entire Narutoverse cast. I don't really care to debate semantics.


It is large enough to make it irrelevant when comparisons are involved.


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## Veracity (Jan 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> That didn't happen. She got the jump on him because she _unexpectedly stopped trembling._ Notice Orochimaru attributed himself being hit to that and not her _raw speed. _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Se still blitzed him. And that's the speed part of the feat. He should have expected that like the other 3 she stopped his slashes. She was pulling her injured body in between all his slashes before that anyway. And those were all with the intent to kill so he was swinging ad fast as he could . 

Because the tanto feat is after she released her seal and broke her phobia. I'd like to call that Serious Part 1 tsunade.

Based on the artwork, it looks like she kicked under his guard. I think that's what Godaime Tsunade and FlamingRain argued.

Mei has super fast handseal speed. That's being proven over in your other thread. So she outspeed that speed severely.

Probably not even close to a second later as Madara is still looking back when she kicks the construct. 

Anyone that could blitz Zetzu would be super fast compared to him.

Rivals Minato in reactions.


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