# Tsunade vs Deidara



## Kaiser (Jun 28, 2013)

Location: Suna
Restrictions: C0
Knowledge: Manga
Distance: 10meters


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## Ghost (Jun 28, 2013)

Deidara takes flight and Tsunade can't do anything.


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## trance (Jun 28, 2013)

Depends on who's faster. If Deidara can take flight first, he rapes. If Tsunade can reach him before he takes flight, she rapes. 10m is awfully short. Leaning with Tsunade on this unless Deidara goes suicidal, then tie.


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## Ghost (Jun 28, 2013)

Trance said:


> Depends on who's faster. If Deidara can take flight first, he rapes. If Tsunade can reach him before he takes flight, she rapes. 10m is awfully short. Leaning with Tsunade on this unless Deidara goes suicidal, then tie.



Deidara reacted to and avoided Sasuke's Shunshin blitz from that distance.


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## trance (Jun 28, 2013)

Saikyou said:


> Deidara reacted to and avoided Sasuke's Shunshin blitz from that distance.



You have a scan for that?


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## FlamingRain (Jun 28, 2013)

[2]

[2]

[2]

That's more than 10 meters, though.


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## Kaiser (Jun 28, 2013)

Deidara was handling entire team Gai(Gai himself being better in taijutsu than Tsunade) by himself in a much closer distance with no arms at all. Not sure if it would make a difference enough for him to stop him go airbone whenever he wants


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## FlamingRain (Jun 28, 2013)

Deidara was not "handling" Team Gai. At all. He clashed with _one_ member _once_, _after they caught up with him_ on his way up a tree and then dodged fodder TenTen's shuriken.

The entire reason he went with the _Jibaku Bunshin_ was because he _couldn't_ handle Team Gai.


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## trance (Jun 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> [2]
> 
> [2]
> 
> ...



Obito was a funny troll as Tobi.


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## Alaude (Jun 28, 2013)

If Deidara gets to air he wins. If Tsunade catches Deidara she should win.


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## Joakim3 (Jun 28, 2013)

A blabering Deidara managed to evade Sasuke _Shunshin_ mid speech from a larger distance, granted Sasuke is a good deal faster than Tsunade.

Deidara may be able to get into the air or at absolute worst (due to the shorter distance) _Doton: Bunshin_ feints.... GG Tsunade


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## Larcher (Jun 28, 2013)

Well her taijutsu skills may be full of impact but they are predictable so 10m she may get up close but Deidara is going to her hits espicially as it's just the beggining of the fight like part 1 Kabuto was able to do though he will be under pressure i favour that he'll but able to split some distance between them and fly off and blitz form the air i have a feeling she'll be able to evade a fair few taking on board Hebi Sasuke evaded his attacks on a concecutive basis and she does have mitotonic regeneration as well if she gets hit by either C1 or C2 and C3 though thats not a given she might not be able to use it against something of that intensity but she has Katsuya she would probably Tank C3 and by then she would have reached Deidara she would have had to use mitotonic regeneration but not to bad by this point in which she has summoned Katsuya she would be at the same level to where he was in the air by this point she will either try and slam dunk him into the groun which is unlikley as he'll fly out of her way and blitz her in mid air or use katuya's acid which if hits him he'll be doomed as Orochimaru addmited it would kill him if caught under it but Deidara could just use his C2 dragon as bait and he will cast another bird then i'll say Dedara will go for C4 which will spell the end for Tsunade it's manga knowledge and i doubt it covers the C4 and even with Knowledge she would have to use mitotonic regeneration on the accurate time which is unlikely as Deidara decides when to detonate and can't visualkize the activeity like Sasuke did so i'll go with Deidara more times than not.


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## Mithos (Jun 28, 2013)

At this distance, Tsunade has a good chance of ending it right off the bat. I don't doubt that Deidara can react to Tsunade's speed, but can he escape a blast radius like this? I really doubt it. He will be thrown and left open for Tsunade to shunshin in and end him. If he tries to avoid her by going underground, well, he just sealed his fate.


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## Bonly (Jun 28, 2013)

Deidara takes to the skies and send bombs down. He realize that she has Regen and uses C4. Tsunade gets messed up badly and needs to waste a crapload of chakra and survive. Repeat the process till she's dead, but as always this depends on how much clay Deidara has left. If Deidara runs out of clay then he's screwed, if not then he win more times then not.


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## LostSelf (Jun 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> this
> 
> this
> 
> ...



He reacted to all of Team Gai (including Gai who was closer than the others) in less than one meter and without arms. He also reacted to a surprise attack from Sasuke at less than 10 meters when he was distracted with Tobi and counter attacked accordingly, though.

OT: Deidara manages to get into the air. That is dodging her attack, counter attacking her with bombs or bunshin feint tricking her.

After that, he will force Tsunade to use Byakugo and waste chakra, more than he will surely. A C3 will deal a good amount of damage (more than the Susano'o clones) and will surely put her into the same vulnerable position where he can bombard as much as he wants and drain her since she will not be able to properly dodge the bombs. After that he can kill her off with C4 nd avoid wasting more chakra with C2-C3 since he would need to use more of those, at least C2 to kill her.

If Tsunade activates the seal Sakura used and the blast sends Deidara flying, he has enough time to create a bird and fly away before falling. I doubt Tsunade can track him if he's sent flying. And if she pursues him he sends her back with an explosion and disrupt her movement.

I go with Deidara.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 28, 2013)

For a start, I fail to see what being armless has to do with anything in that situation.

Deidara was trying to escape, and ninjas run with their arms flying behind their back anyway, and we don't even see how and when Team Gai attacks. For all we know, and what I would assume anyway considering Deidara's intent at the moment, Deidara took off running _first _and _then_ Team Gai ran after him _in response_.

After that, I've already stated above- one member _caught up_ and then he dodged . . .TenTen. . .

He parried one attack, and then acknowledged that he couldn't keep it up right after the fact.

I believe just about any Kage level could have been put in that situation and done what we saw Deidara do, honestly.

I'm also not sure why you're telling me about him reacting Sasuke's Shunshin when that's what I showed in those scans. . .


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## Kai (Jun 28, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> I don't doubt that Deidara can react to Tsunade's speed, but can he escape a blast radius like this? I really doubt it. He will be thrown and left open for Tsunade to shunshin in and end him. If he tries to avoid her by going underground, well, he just sealed his fate.


While going underground is the worst possible tactic he can use against Tsunade, knocking him into the air is the worst possible tactic Tsunade can use against Deidara.


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## LostSelf (Jun 28, 2013)

@FR: Well, he had to block attacks with a Kunai in his mouth. Granted that Gai's reflexes and speed are better than Deidara's (Lee's as well) the chances of Deidara running and getting a good distance s to effectively avoid Gai for all people are slim.

Not any kage level can do that. Orochimaru couldn't dodge Tsunade's punch and she was in a worse condition. And both, Oro and Deidara were caught by surprise. Even if we don't know what happened there, he was able to get out from someone faster and skilled in CqC than Tsunade and that's a pretty good feat.

He managed to get out of that situation. If he did that he can easily dodge Tsunade's punch at 10 meters (that's the point, though)..

I wasn't talking about this. I talked about Sasuke's second attack from behind.

Tobi distracted him [1] and Sasuke appeared quite close behind him and with that short time after Tobi warned him he could counter attack [2].


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## narut0ninjafan (Jun 28, 2013)

Tsunade launched a combo attack with A to break Susanoo and A was either lightened or being carried by flying Onoki. Considering she caught up from further away, and the fact she reacted to Madara's fireballs before any other Kage, I would say she at the very least as fast if not faster than Onoki, who had no problem keeping up with Deidara. She can also jump huge heights (against Madara, against Manda) so I don't think flight is as deadly as people think to her. She can also use Katsuyu as a platform to jump, or have her spray acid upwards to fall on Deidara. She can tank up to C3 with Byakugou, and can tank C3 with Katsuyu. C4 is debatable but I think she might be able to heal from it, or she can stick close to Deidara/hide inside Katsuyu to avoid the blast. 

I would say Tsunade wins more times than not.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 28, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> @FR: Well, he had to block attacks with a Kunai in his mouth. Granted that Gai's reflexes and speed are better than Deidara's (Lee's as well) the chances of Deidara running and getting a good distance s to effectively avoid Gai for all people are slim.
> 
> Not any kage level can do that. Orochimaru couldn't dodge Tsunade's punch and she was in a worse condition. And both, Oro and Deidara were caught by surprise. Even if we don't know what happened there, he was able to get out from someone faster and skilled in CqC than Tsunade and that's a pretty good feat.



We saw a _single_ clash. . .we don't know if it was Gai or not. I'm hesitant to put start of Part 2 Base Lee's reflexes over Deidara's to begin with.

He didn't "effectively" get a good distance either, because if he had, he would have never said there was "no way" he could escape, and that's the entire point of his opting for _Jibaku Bunshin_- they were inevitably going to overwhelm him and he needed another way out.

If Orochimaru had suddenly fled in the other direction _first_, and Tsunade tried to punch him _in response_, I'm sure he could have- for a short time at least.

Deidara had time to sit there and look at team Gai, we don't know if they throw a surprise punch at him or not before ran. We see none of it. So for all we know this went down nothing like what happened with the gimped Sannin. And I wouldn't assume it did anyway.



> Tobi distracted him [1] and Sasuke appeared quite close behind him and with that short time after Tobi warned him he could counter attack [2].



Oh~, that.

I'm about to head out of town for a track meet, so my response probably won't be up for a while (not until we get to the hotel). But I'm not doubting Deidara's ability to react to Tsunade.


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## Mithos (Jun 28, 2013)

Kai said:


> While going underground is the worst possible tactic he can use against Tsunade, knocking him into the air is the worst possible tactic Tsunade can use against Deidara.



No, because the force of the shockwave is going to damage and stun him. Not to mention the potential damage by debris.


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## LostSelf (Jun 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> We saw a _single_ clash. . .we don't know if it was Gai or not. I'm hesitant to put start of Part 2 Base Lee's reflexes over Deidara's to begin with.
> 
> He didn't "effectively" get a good distance either, because if he had, he would have never said there was "no way" he could escape, and that's the entire point of his opting for _Jibaku Bunshin_- they were inevitably going to overwhelm him and he needed another way out.
> 
> ...



The safest thing to assume is that he escaped Gai's attack. He is the fastest of the team and was the closest one. I doubt that Lee, Neji or Tenten could attack first. The thing is not the clash. Is managing to run Gai. It doesn't matter if Deidara ran first, Gai should've chased him right away and even before he moved since Gai could notice how Kisame was slowly moving his finger underwater. I doubt that Deidara could've made an effective maneuver to avoid Gai's first attack and escaped long enough to talk while being chased. But he did. I would assume Gai noticed his intention to move or him beggining to move like he did to Kisame and was the first one to attack and Deidara still got away.

About Orochimaru, it doesn't matter. Tsunade's striking speed is not that fast as to attack gimped and barely moving before Oro at least reacted (However Oro has a track record of being hit by _anything_). I don't think Oro could've done what Deidara did to team Gai without arms the same how Deidara did. I doubt that some kage can do that as well unless they are fast and reflexive.

Oh about Lee, if he can effectively keep up with his gated speed (Speed that destroys the floor by just running) then his reflexes should be pretty good. It's not something crazy to assume he can be above Deidara in that department, on top of that the guy is a taijutsu master, he should be reflexive enough as to be above a long ranged fighter. But that's just me saying it without scans proving it. But i still doubt Sasuke is faster than gated Lee and he forced Deidara to go airborne (despite Deidara keeping up with him, so that's strange).



> Oh~, that.
> 
> I'm about to head out of town for a track meet, so my response probably won't be up for a while (not until we get to the hotel). But I'm not doubting Deidara's ability to react to Tsunade.


I know you're not doubting it. And good luck with the trip .


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 28, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> No, because the force of the shockwave is going to damage and stun him. Not to mention the potential damage by debris.



Tsunade has never produced power approaching Sakura's punch.


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## EdoMangekyou (Jun 28, 2013)

deidara dodges her initial attacks, gets in sky and just destroys her from a distance. worst case scenario he suicide bombs the shit outta both of em :L


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## joshhookway (Jun 28, 2013)

Deidara destroys her with c1. As soon as Tsunade blitz, Deidara dodges to the air and missile guides birds into Tsunade's head.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 28, 2013)

Deidara goes through some minor frustration trying to kill Tsunade with C1 and C2, thanks to her regenerative powers.

He might even try C3, although she can defend from that with Katsuyu.

Then he ups his game to C4 and ends the match quickly via microscopic bombs completely destroying her body from the inside-out.


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## Mithos (Jun 28, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Tsunade has never produced power approaching Sakura's punch.



"It *might* even be stronger than Tsunade's!" [1] 

If he's unsure which is stronger, it at least means that Tsunade's is close to that level of power.


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (Jun 28, 2013)

If Deidara can dodge Sasuke from a slightly greater starting distance. And Sasuke's speed feats proves that he's about twice as fast as Tsunade...She's not catching Deidara who can fly.

Deidara fly's into the air with C2...The bombs are homing so Tsunade greatly exhaust her regeneration. Katsuu saves her from c3. N C4 erases her.


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## Kanki (Jun 28, 2013)

Tsunade can reach Deidara. Only when he's attempting to lure someone out, or usingsome of  his biggest explosives, does he fly ridiculously high. During his fight against Sasuke for example he was within range for much of the time. With Katsuyu, Tsunade has a huge range from which she can attack from, as well as decent offensive power with Katsuyu's acid.

It's unclear how far she can spit the acid, but bearing in mind a human can spit further than there own body length, a snake can spit 3 meters, it's likely that Katsuyu can spit at a range equal to it's own body size x 2 at least. If Deidara doesn't know that, he's in trouble.

Tsunade can of course jump from Katsuyu onto Deidara as well. She jumped higher than Gamabunta's size: 1

The idea that she can't do anything because Deidara is out of reach is incorrect. She may not have a vast array of long range offence, but she has ways around that as she showed in the past.

This is going purely by feats of course. Tsunade has been portrayed as being above Deidara's level and if the two fought, I'm sure Kishi would give her the tools to get the job done should the plot demand it.





Blake said:


> Deidara was handling entire team Gai(Gai himself being better in taijutsu than Tsunade) by himself in a much closer distance with no arms at all. Not sure if it would make a difference enough for him to stop him go airbone whenever he wants



Not quite. It was base Gai, and he uses a different type of taijutsu to Tsunade. It's unclear by the scans whether he blocked any attacks, but if so, he'd get crushed by Tsunade if he tried to do the same. Either that, or his chakra senses would get sent all over the place if she chooses to go down that route. 

Deidara managed to avoid a few hits but he admitted himself he was done for at that point and fled. He handled it in a panel, nothing more.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 28, 2013)

KIG knows what I'm getting at. :amazed



TheIronMan said:


> The safest thing to assume is that he escaped Gai's attack. He is the fastest of the team and was the closest one. I doubt that Lee, Neji or Tenten could attack first. The thing is not the clash. Is managing to run Gai. It doesn't matter if Deidara ran first, Gai should've chased him right away and even before he moved since Gai could notice how Kisame was slowly moving his finger underwater. I doubt that Deidara could've made an effective maneuver to avoid Gai's first attack and escaped long enough to talk while being chased. But he did. I would assume Gai noticed his intention to move or him beggining to move like he did to Kisame and was the first one to attack and Deidara still got away.



How would you doubt Deidara's ability to make such a maneuver and then turn around to say that he did exactly such with no implications over anything else that it was the case?

If Deidara took off first before Gai started an assault, then he had a head start and it doesn't say as much for how slippery he is in close-quarters than if he dodged Gai's assault and then took off afterwards.

I'd like to think Deidara bailed and Gai yelled "after him" before starting off or something, because otherwise. . .what you're saying means that Gai couldn't hit Deidara from less than a meter away, but Sasuke almost does from over a dozen meters away. . . . .that's what you would be saying, and when Sasuke surprised Deidara from behind the guy almost lost his arm (having _only_ avoided such an outcome because his own explosion propelled him forward, an option he couldn't rely on with Team Gai). That would make casual Sasuke > all of Team Gai  working together. . . . . .

Also. . .Gai did that to Kisame while in Gates, so Deidara beginning to move before a base Gai actually attacked isn't too affected by that regardless.



> About Orochimaru, it doesn't matter. Tsunade's striking speed is not that fast as to attack gimped and barely moving before Oro at least reacted (However Oro has a track record of being hit by _anything_). I don't think Oro could've done what Deidara did to team Gai without arms the same how Deidara did. I doubt that some kage can do that as well unless they are fast and reflexive.



Orochimaru dodges attacks. . .but not getting into that.

The reason the Orochimaru example _does_ matter is that we have the same two proposals for what could have happened with Deidara and Gai having actually happened in this fight.

When Orochimaru ran away and Tsunade chased after him, he didn't get hit. When Tsunade actually took the initiative up close before Orochimaru took off the other way, she hit him.

Same applies here, with Deidara replacing Orochimaru and Gai replacing Tsunade; since we didn't see it on panel, but know Deidara isn't as fast as Gai, we can say that Deidara likely took the initiative to run before he was actually assaulted and afforded himself more time thanks to a head start that way, as opposed to suddenly becoming better without his arms than he is with his arms.



> Oh about Lee, if he can effectively keep up with his gated speed (Speed that destroys the floor by just running) then his reflexes should be pretty good. It's not something crazy to assume he can be above Deidara in that department, on top of that the guy is a taijutsu master, he should be reflexive enough as to be above a long ranged fighter. But that's just me saying it without scans proving it. But i still doubt Sasuke is faster than gated Lee and he forced Deidara to go airborne (despite Deidara keeping up with him, so that's strange).



I thought Gates enhanced reflexes. . .?

The "Taijutsu user logically more reflexive than ninjutsu user" statement becomes much less reliable when a level gap is present.

Lee likely is above most ninjutsu users in speed and reflexes _when they're on his level_, because the entire reason Lee is on their level to begin with is because of his speed and reflexes in taijutsu.

But Deidara is Lee's superior. . .by a decent margin. . .so it doesn't work as well with Deidara and Lee as it would with Deidara and Gai.


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## Veracity (Jun 28, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> "It *might* even be stronger than Tsunade's!" [1]
> 
> If he's unsure which is stronger, it at least means that Tsunade's is close to that level of power.



Lol and Hashirama never saw Tsunade in her prime. I mean, how old was she when he died? Probably very young. It's more then safe to put Tsunade on par with Sakura.


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## Hero (Jun 28, 2013)

Byakugo. Smash the ground.

GG Deidara


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## FlamingRain (Jun 28, 2013)

I was originally thinking Deidara had the edge, but now I'm actually leaning towards Tsunade.

The Hokage is not without options to reach Deidara in the air. The artist has a default height that he flies at, which only changes based on his opponent's attack range.

1

The issue with this is, Deidara doesn't even have a grasp of what Tsunade's attack range even is yet, and she will take this chance to capitalize on this opening. What's going to really hurt Deidara here is not his own speed, but his bird's speed.

Tsunade's _Shunshin_ jump proved faster than Onoki's flight, which in turn was able to match the speed at which Deidara's clay bird moves. She can also jump really far considering she jumped hundreds of meters while holding Gamabunta's several ton tanto. So she's definitely got it in her to jump right up and pop that bird early on in the fight, especially with the buildings of Sunagakure to hop off of, and using Katsuyu as a mid-air stepping stone to boost the jump even further is also likely (assuming Katsuyu wouldn't just appear above land on Deidara to crush him before he got too high). With the bird destroyed, tagging the falling Deidara with a follow up strike or with a globule of acid from a supercharged _Zesshi Nensan_ spray is made a whole lot easier.

Besides that, jumping out of the smoke from one of Deidara's larger explosions and straight at him to get him that way is also very much a possibility, especially considering that Deidara flies just barely outside of the range of the smoke of his explosions.

1
1
1.

He wouldn't even notice her until she was already on top of him, and at that point it would be too late to stop her.


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## Shizune (Jun 28, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> At this distance, Tsunade has a good chance of ending it right off the bat. I don't doubt that Deidara can react to Tsunade's speed, but can he escape a blast radius like this? I really doubt it. He will be thrown and left open for Tsunade to shunshin in and end him. If he tries to avoid her by going underground, well, he just sealed his fate.



Tsunade has never shown destructive power of that degree, and even if she had I'm growing quite agitated with the cratershot arguments. It was silly when it "threw people off balance," and it's still silly when it "throws them in the air." Deidara is a highly experienced aerial combatant and we saw him evade the entirety of team Gai in a chase. He would escape the debris and proceed to use the cover to go airborne. 

We've never even seen this tactic attempted, much less employed successfully. I'm guessing that's because it wouldn't work.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 28, 2013)

Oh my gosh. . .Deidara _could not_ evade the entirety of Team Gai. That's the entire reason he resorted to _Jibaku Bunshin_.


. . . . .


*Spoiler*: __ 



 We've seen people thrown off balance by the ground being ruptured before. . .

The shockwave took out things capable of tanking Sakura's base super-punch. How does being experienced counter that? Experience doesn't make Deidara more durable, nor would it tell him "hey this lady is about to bust a multi-block sized crater in the ground, stepping back won't work".


Sakura employed it successfully in 632. Prior to that, her base punch wasn't strong enough to create such destruction and she hasn't fought a high level one on one since displaying that strength for us to determine that she wouldn't find it effective.

On the other hand, the only time we saw Tsunade strike the ground was in Part 1, where she was a 20 years out of shape alcoholic nowhere near top physical condition, and I'm really thinking that she wasn't even using chakra to enhance her strength (otherwise, when he cut her muscles she'd have still exploded his head with her backhand).

Part 2 Tsunade has yet to strike the ground, and I doubt she believed the ground-pound would break open Madara's Susano'o (and she would be right that it wouldn't have since she had to hit it directly to come close to that).


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 28, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> "It *might* even be stronger than Tsunade's!" [1]
> 
> If he's unsure which is stronger, it at least means that Tsunade's is close to that level of power.



Hasharima had to have been guessing as to how far Tsunade progressed. He couldn't have been alive when she was an adult. In actuality, that wasn't the route she seems to have ended up devoting her time to since her seal increased her healing powers instead. 

In any case, I think it is disingenuous to use a note of uncertainty from someone without any up to date knowledge to retroactively reinterpret Tsunade's capabilities _massively upwards_ from anything we have ever seen from her. I would rather go by the actual visual representation of her abilities than by such a vague one liner.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 28, 2013)

Subtle, if a punch that dents a Juubling and sends it flying can do what Sakura did when directed downwards, an in-shape Tsunade who cracks and sends Madara Uchiha's Susano'o flying may very well be able to replicate something similar _if we ever saw her hit the ground itself again_.

We don't actually have any fair visual representation to go by because _current_ Tsunade has yet to strike the ground again, so we can't necessarily say the feat is "massively" upwards from what Tsunade has done except for her Part 1, alcoholic, 20 years out of shape who isn't even using chakra enhancement incarnation.

We should also consider that Shizune was not in the least bit surprised at the explosion, and since this is the first time Sakura herself has completed the seal (meaning she hasn't seen Sakura do this before), we can conclude that she must have seen Tsunade herself do something _at least_ close to it beforehand.

Hashirama's "might" is just an added bonus that happens to be consistent with Shizune showing no surprise at all. (Hiruzen didn't show any either, actually.)

I don't think there's anything at all wrong with someone believing current Tsunade is capable of replicating a similar explosion.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Personally, I'd like to believe that Hiruzen for whatever reason showed Hashirama a genjutsu of teenage Tsunade or something before Hashirama said that.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 28, 2013)

Except Tsunade wasn't that much more destructive of Madara's Susano'o than Ei. He could crack ribs. She could breaks ribs. There was a substantial, but not _massive_, difference. And yet Ei's Raiga Bomb produced something not so dissimilar from Tsunade's part I kick. So assuming Tsunade's strength increased since then, there is still a truly massive difference between that region of strength and creating a crater so massive that it made the Juubis (who were bigger than man sized in general) look puny. And I don't really see how Shizune not being that surprised should mean that much. She would know that Sakura had been gathering chakra for three years to do this, and also from Kishi's perspective, he just had both Naruto and Hasharima go on about her strength. Would he show Shizune doing the same thing just to show that it was different than Tsunade's? 

I am sorry, but nothing Tsunade did in Part II seems equivalent. Heck, when she punched Madara's Susano'o, I didn't see it blasting a path of dust around it as it went flying. We saw her punch Madara's Bunshin's advanced stage Susano'o straight down into the ground and there was no crater at all and nothing like that. Tsunade simply has never shown anything even approaching that level of strength. I see no reason to suppose she has it.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 28, 2013)

Ay could only crack ribs with Onoki's help.

Ay by himself, who is still has monster strength, couldn't so much as put a _nick_ in Susano'o.

Ay by himself couldn't even bruise Madara himself, and I'm not about to buy for one second that Madara is anywhere near as durable as his Susano'o.

It would be hard to send it blasting with a path of dust when she punched it _diagonally_ into the air and not _horizontally_ above the ground like Sakura did. . .

It wouldn't at all be surprising if Tsunade's strength increased by the same amount that her stamina did.

Tsunade smacked the Susano'o downwards but she herself stopped in mid-air after the fact, she did not drive it into the ground like Sakura drove the Juubling down by landing on it. In addition to the difference in action, there is not a doubt in my mind that the advanced Susano'o had vastly more resistance behind it than any Juubling did, especially one in mid air with no footing, meaning there shouldn't be anywhere near the collateral damage.

About Shizune, I personally think Kishi would have. Shizune couldn't know how grand the explosion would be unless she had seen it before. And really I just find it silly that Tsunade could teach them how to do something like that without being able to even approach it. If it was really Shizune's first time seeing anything like it, she should have been somewhat surprised or something. It should have come as more of a surprise than Katsuyu's remote healing, honestly. And again Hiruzen said nothing.

Again, I'm waiting to see if Tsunade does anything once she actually gets to the battlefield. As for now, I think someone is completely justified in believing Tsunade is still comparable to Sakura in strength.


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 28, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> KIG knows what I'm getting at. :amazed



Do you think Tsunade can catch Deidara with linear jumps that can be countered moving to one side or launching a C2 to her face? .



> How would you doubt Deidara's ability to make such a maneuver and then turn around to say that he did exactly such with no implications over anything else that it was the case?
> 
> If Deidara took off first before Gai started an assault, then he had a head start and it doesn't say as much for how slippery he is in close-quarters than if he dodged Gai's assault and then took off afterwards.



I doubt it because he did that to the mighty Gaikage, the next level of Hokage that not even Hashirama has achieved. Yes, he's slippery.



> I'd like to think Deidara bailed and Gai yelled "after him" before starting off or something, because otherwise. . .what you're saying means that Gai couldn't hit Deidara from less than a meter away, but Sasuke almost does from over a dozen meters away. . . . .that's what you would be saying, and when Sasuke surprised Deidara from behind the guy almost lost his arm (having _only_ avoided such an outcome because his own explosion propelled him forward, an option he couldn't rely on with Team Gai). That would make casual Sasuke > all of Team Gai  working together. . . . . .
> 
> Also. . .Gai did that to Kisame while in Gates, so Deidara beginning to move before a base Gai actually attacked isn't too affected by that regardless.



No. Sasuke cannot be > all of team Gai because he's emo. Anyway i don0t think Gai had to say let's get him because is what they knew was their mission. About Kisame, gates doesn't amplify sight, though. What i say is that it's weird how Deidara managed to get away from Gai even moving first. And it's not because Gai is slow, if i recall, after beating Shouten Kisame, Gai had enough strenght to run amazingly fast with Kakashi on his back. Fast enough as to be seen very small in one panel.




> Orochimaru dodges attacks. . .but not getting into that.
> 
> The reason the Orochimaru example _does_ matter is that we have the same two proposals for what could have happened with Deidara and Gai having actually happened in this fight.
> 
> ...


Yes, he should have moved first. I don't know anymore. His speed varies as when he was blitzed by Sai (Though some people claim he was being cocky, his expression said another thing but this is another thing).

Also, i don't remember Orochimaru dodging much attacks.



> I thought Gates enhanced reflexes. . .?
> 
> The "Taijutsu user logically more reflexive than ninjutsu user" statement becomes much less reliable when a level gap is present.
> 
> ...



I don't think gates enhances reflexes though. Or didn't even think about it (And is the main argument of why i think Lee is above Deidara in reflexes).


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## Mithos (Jun 29, 2013)

Nitty Scott said:


> Tsunade has never shown destructive power of that degree, and even if she had I'm growing quite agitated with the cratershot arguments. It was silly when it "threw people off balance," and it's still silly when it "throws them in the air." Deidara is a highly experienced aerial combatant and we saw him evade the entirety of team Gai in a chase. He would escape the debris and proceed to use the cover to go airborne.
> 
> We've never even seen this tactic attempted, much less employed successfully. I'm guessing that's because it wouldn't work.



See my post about Hashirama's quote. I'm confident that Tsunade can deal damage similar to that level. 

How is it silly that it would throw them in the air? We have_ seen_ it throw dozens of Juubi clones into the air. 

He had to use a clone to escape them. He fended them off in a very brief skirmish while he was running away, no more. How would he escape the debris though? The sheer concussive force of the blast would stun him at the very least. 

If the distance was farther and he was able to safely get into the air before she could reach him, he would have a much better chance. He's a long-range fighter starting in close quarters to one of the most dangerous close-range fighters in the manga; the conditions do not favor him at all.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 29, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Ay could only crack ribs with Onoki's help.
> 
> Again, I'm waiting to see if Tsunade does anything once she actually gets to the battlefield. As for now, I think someone is completely justified in believing Tsunade is still comparable to Sakura in strength.



The second statement, I don't think is true, because it requires you to believe the first statement. Which we know isn't true because Ei cracked Madara's ribcage the first time he ever attacked it without Onoki. With Onoki he was able to do as much damage as Tsunade. Tsunade didn't do _that_ much more damage.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 29, 2013)

Subtle, can you give me a scan of where Ay- alone- _ever_ cracked Susano'o?

Because I truthfully cannot find that anywhere either in chapter 563 or in chapter 577.

The breaks Tsunade inflicted covered the majority of the side of Susano'o that she hit, which I don't believe Ay ever came close to on his own, and when Onoki helped the cracks didn't come close to covering the entire side. So yes I maintain that Tsunade is in fact _that_ much stronger than Ay.


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## Bonly (Jun 29, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Subtle, can you give me a scan of where Ay- alone- _ever_ cracked Susano'o?
> 
> Because I truthfully cannot find that anywhere.
> 
> The breaks Tsunade inflicted covered the majority of the side of Susano'o that she hit, which I don't believe Ay ever came close to on his own, and when Onoki helped the cracks didn't come close to covering the entire side. So yes I maintain that Tsunade is in fact _that_ much stronger than Ay.



This depends on which Susanoo. A was able to break some ribs off of Sasuke's ribcage Susanoo but he didn't show such when he attacked Madara's Susanoo alone but he was shown doing more damage to Madara's susanoo(with Onoki) then Tsunade did.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 29, 2013)

I'm talking specifically about Madara's Susano'o.

And I don't see anywhere where he did any more damage than Tsunade.


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## Bonly (Jun 29, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I'm talking specifically about Madara's Susano'o.



In that case he never broke anything alone.



> And I don't see anywhere where he did any more damage than Tsunade.



Tsunade went and hit Madara's Ribcage Susanoo and only managed to give it cracks as well as send it flying.

A+with Onoki went hit Madara's higher level Susanoo and actually broke a rib piece off and sent it flying.

All Tsunade could do was crack it in one attempt by herself while A+Onoki was able to break a piece of it off in one attempt by themselves. But A could only do such with the help of Onoki.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 29, 2013)

Ay hit an actual rib, though.

Tsunade did not actually strike the rib itself, her punch landed _between_ them sent it flying, you can even see a hole the size of her fist _next to_ one of the ribs in the next panel, and there are still cracks extending over the rest of that side surrounding that hole, while there were no cracks surrounding the rib Ay and Onoki broke together.

I'm sure some it is because of the level of Susano'o, but I'm not sold on them having actually done _more_ damage.


We can just agree to disagree on that, though,  at least atm, cuz I don't feel like going over that because my point stands that Tsunade is significantly stronger than Ay _himself_.


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## Bonly (Jun 29, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Ay hit an actual rib, though.
> 
> Tsunade did not actually strike the rib itself, her punch landed _between_ them sent it flying, you can even see a hole the size of her fist _next to_ one of the ribs in the next panel, and there are still cracks extending over the rest of that side surrounding that hole, w*hile there were no cracks surrounding the rib Ay and Onoki broke together.*
> 
> ...



Unlike when Tsunade it Susanoo, there wasn't a huge panel showing the whole Susanoo and the damage it took. It only showed the rib that broke as well as the rib below it cracking. Hard to say whether there was or wasn't cracks surrounding the rib cage like with Tsunade due to lack of showing of said susanoo.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 29, 2013)

We can see the actual end of the line segment, though, because it stops _right_ before it begins extending off panel.


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## Bonly (Jun 29, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> We can see the actual end of the line segment, though, because it stops _right_ before it begins extending off panel.



As far as we know it stops but it could have extended longer. Look at the scan you posted when Tsunade punched Madara's Susanoo. See the second to last scan how some cracks seem to stop(similar to how it was with A+Onoki) but in the next scan when we get the better view of Susanoo, we see the cracks do continue to extend. Same thing may or may not apply with A+Onoki but we can never say for sure due to the "hit it and quit it" mentality Kishi had lol.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 29, 2013)

True, but!

In the first panel Tsunade's fist was still in contact with Susano'o and it didn't go flying yet. By the time Susano'o started flying backwards the cracks had already extended much further across it.

By the time it was actually flying after Ay and Onoki's strike the cracks hadn't moved anymore.

 Maybe we can't say for sure, but I personally lean towards there having been less cracks when the Raikage and Tsuchikage hit it.


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## Bonly (Jun 29, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> True, but!
> 
> In the first panel Tsunade's fist was still in contact with Susano'o and it didn't go flying yet. By the time Susano'o started flying backwards the cracks had already extended much further across it.
> 
> ...



If Tsunade was only shown in the second to last panel and all that was shown was a rib and with a crack that seemed to stop and not extend, would you think that she would have made as many cracks as she did had Kishi not shown the damage of Susanoo in the next panel?

 Indeed we can't, but I personally lean towards there having been more cracks when the Raikage and Tsuchikage hit it because you view the opposite .

Also while I'm thinking about it how is it that in a Tsunade vs Deidara thread, it got to the point where we're talking about Tsunade vs A+Onoki damaging Susanoo lol. I just randomly clicked on the last page and saw your post, aren't we a bit off topic here


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## FlamingRain (Jun 29, 2013)

Bonly said:


> If Tsunade was only shown in the second to last panel and all that was shown was a rib and with a crack that seemed to stop and not extend, would you think that she would have made as many cracks as she did had Kishi not shown the damage of Susanoo in the next panel?



Yes. What I'm saying is, _by the time Susano'o actually flew_ there were way more cracks. Susano'o was actually flying when we saw the broken rib, so the cracks _should have_ extended off panel already imho.



> Indeed we can't, but I personally lean towards there having been more cracks when the Raikage and Tsuchikage hit it because you view the opposite .







> Also while I'm thinking about it how is it that in a Tsunade vs Deidara thread, it got to the point where we're talking about Tsunade vs A+Onoki damaging Susanoo lol. I just randomly clicked on the last page and saw your post, aren't we a bit off topic here



Yes, yes we are.


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## tanman (Jul 14, 2013)

Sorry for necroing, but it just occurred to me how crazy it is to think that Byakugo could enable Tsunade to tank C4. It erases the body in moments before the victim even knows what's happening. Byakugo has cauterized wounds, but it has never allowed Tsunade to even regenerate a limb let alone prevent the microscopic snuff film that is C4.


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## joshhookway (Jul 14, 2013)

Tsunade's regen has always been overrated. Tsunade would get killed by C1


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## Sadgoob (Jul 14, 2013)

Trance said:


> Depends on who's faster. If Deidara can take flight first, he rapes. If Tsunade can reach him before he takes flight, she rapes. 10m is awfully short. Leaning with Tsunade on this unless Deidara goes suicidal, then tie.



Deidara is factually a tier faster, and if he got in the air against Sasuke, then he can certainly do so against Tsunade with far less help and trouble. An armless Deidara also did so against Team Gai.

Unlike them though, Tsunade's blows have a much larger area of effect. Still, I personally think it's more likely than not that Deidara makes it into the air. He's pretty sneaky and fast.​


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## Veracity (Jul 15, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Deidara is factually a tier faster, and if he got in the air against Sasuke, then he can certainly do so against Tsunade with far less help and trouble. An armless Deidara also did so against Team Gai.
> 
> Unlike them though, Tsunade's blows have a much larger area of effect. Still, I personally think it's more likely than not that Deidara makes it into the air. He's pretty sneaky and fast.​



A tier faster? Correct me if im mistaken, didn't Onnoki match Deidaras air speed? & branching off of that we can bring Gokage vs Madara feats that help in Tsunades case. 

Deidara is not faster then Tsunade. Nor does evading a team with one arm make any difference.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 15, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> A tier faster? Correct me if im mistaken, didn't Onnoki match Deidaras air speed? & branching off of that we can bring Gokage vs Madara feats that help in Tsunades case.



According to the databook, yes. 

I don't think flight ninjutsu is accounted for in the speed statistic, only reflexes and by extension, the maximum skillful-movement attainable by vitalizing the body with chakra. ​


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 15, 2013)

Tsunade is fucked.

At 10 meters, Deidara evades any given hit. Once it is apparent she can make craters with a fist, he takes flight and spams a plethora of bombs; they are likely tanked by regeneration. Tsunade stated that her techniques can't heal the damage from FRS, but C4 is capable of *disintegrating* objects at the cellular level. 

In the end, Tsunade doesn't have the ocular powers to perceive such explosives, so that is the inevitable fate she meets.


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## Veracity (Jul 15, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> According to the databook, yes.
> 
> I don't think flight ninjutsu is accounted for in the speed statistic, only reflexes and by extension, the maximum skillful-movement attainable by vitalizing the body with chakra. ​



Lets not use Databooks. They are often inccorect, and are extremely outdated. They don't even breach the war, in which Tsunade gained a plethora of feats. So basically your comparing part 2 Deidara vs Part 1 Tsunade.(Who didn't train in decades and had a phobia)

Tsunade should easily be a 4.5. Considering in part 1 she casually blitzed Shizune, who happens to be a 4 in speed. Another way the databooks are incorrect.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 15, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Lets not use Databooks. They are often inccorect, and are extremely outdated. They don't even breach the war, in which Tsunade gained a plethora of feats. So basically your comparing part 2 Deidara vs Part 1 Tsunade.(Who didn't train in decades and had a phobia)
> 
> Tsunade should easily be a 4.5. Considering in part 1 she casually blitzed Shizune, who happens to be a 4 in speed. Another way the databooks are incorrect.



Tsunade's statistics were revealed in DB3, which was in part two (when Itachi died.) I agree that it's possible that Tsunade's speed has since improved though... good point.​


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## trance (Jul 15, 2013)

So, Deidara takes flight before Tsunade reaches him and nukes her, right?


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## Veracity (Jul 15, 2013)

Trance said:


> So, Deidara takes flight before Tsunade reaches him and nukes her, right?



Lol idk??! & I don't care lol.
I'm just trying to prove that Tsunade is just as fast as Onoki.


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## LostSelf (Jul 15, 2013)

I'm pretty sure Tsunade is not faster than Sasuke or Gai, who were praised by their speed, and they couldn't hit Deidara on a very close distance. Much less than ten meters.


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## Veracity (Jul 15, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> I'm pretty sure Tsunade is not faster than Sasuke or Gai, who were praised by their speed, and they couldn't hit Deidara on a very close distance. Much less than ten meters.



Base Gai really doesn't have any good speed feats. He's had a couple against Obito though.


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## LostSelf (Jul 15, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Base Gai really doesn't have any good speed feats. He's had a couple against Obito though.



He has four speed feats. 


Blitzing Sasuke while he was right in his vision. He just disappeared [1]. Of course, blitzing Genin Sasuke is not a feat. But Sasuke called him faster than Kakashi [2].

Blitzing a Jounin of the sound [3]. A fodder, yeah. But it was a statement of his speed and the speed he crossed when the Jounin was near Naruto. Naruto was looking right in Gai's path and couldn't see him at all.

Not a battle speed, but crossed a very large distance in no time running [4]

And started moving after Naruto [5] [6] [7], crossed the distance and got to Naruto's aid before Obito, who was pretty close to Naruto could warp him. Not to mention that Naruto could do nothing to react or move out of the way [8][9].
Not to mention that this is a Naruto that was keeping up with someone as skilled as Itachi in the air.


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## Veracity (Jul 15, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> He has four speed feats.
> 
> 
> Blitzing Sasuke while he was right in his vision. He just disappeared [1]. Of course, blitzing Genin Sasuke is not a feat. But Sasuke called him faster than Kakashi [2].
> ...



Lol yes. Like I said, aside from Obito feats, his feats are pretty damn pathetic. Tsuande has far better speed feats then Base Gai(aside from
Obito battle.)


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## LostSelf (Jul 15, 2013)

To be fair, the feat of himself running that fast is something she hasn't done. 

Anyway, if you agree with me that his speed feats in the fight with Obito are better than Tsunade's speed feats, then he is still faster in base. Probably his speed has always been the same, since he had a 5 and has been praised by his speed from the very beggining, though.


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## joshhookway (Jul 15, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Lets not use Databooks. They are often inccorect, and are extremely outdated. They don't even breach the war, in which Tsunade gained a plethora of feats. So basically your comparing part 2 Deidara vs Part 1 Tsunade.(Who didn't train in decades and had a phobia)
> 
> Tsunade should easily be a 4.5. Considering in part 1 she casually blitzed Shizune, who happens to be a 4 in speed. Another way the databooks are incorrect.



You do realize that Databook is written by the author?


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## Shizune (Jul 15, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> You do realize that Databook is written by the author?



You do realize the databook compares amaterasu to the sun?


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## Doge (Jul 16, 2013)

Nitty Scott said:


> You do realize the databook compares amaterasu to the sun?



Wasn't that based on a Zetsu comment?  That little punk is notorious for ridiculous statements.


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## Veracity (Jul 16, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> You do realize that Databook is written by the author?



Yeah I really don't care. They are inccorect. The author tends to forget ALOT of shit.  The DBZ creator forgot ss2 lol! 

& it instantly contradicts itself regarding Tsunade and Shizune.


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## Mithos (Jul 16, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Yeah I really don't care. They are inccorect. The author tends to forget ALOT of shit.  The DBZ creator forgot ss2 lol!
> 
> & it instantly contradicts itself regarding Tsunade and Shizune.



There is no reason to believe any DB speed stat is wrong. 

The reason is this: people don't understand what the speed stat means, and speed in general is highly overrated in the manga. 

The speed stat is just base, physical speed. That doesn't include reaction speed, or evasive ability. So someone with a higher speed stat could be blitzed or fail to evade an attack that someone with a slower stat could avoid. 

Also, most speed feats in this manga come through the use of shunshin, which is a ninjutsu - and thus not included in the speed stat. Someone who is physically slower (Tsunade for example) could use her skill in ninjutsu and chakra control to increase her speed and be capable of moving faster than someone who is physically faster than her (Shizune for example). 

I don't think we should argue too much with information the author is providing about his characters. We don't know more about the characters than he does.


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## Bonly (Jul 16, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Subtle, can you give me a scan of where Ay- alone- _ever_ cracked Susano'o?



Ha ha found it . Fourth panel you can see cracks right where A was.


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## LostSelf (Jul 16, 2013)

Yeah... Blitzing a scared Shizune, who on top of that was in a closed place, less skilled in taijutsu, taken off guard and probably paralyzed by Tsunade's chakra or killer intent just like Kakashi was with Orochimaru is not such an amazing feat. The conditions were heavily in her favor. And Shizune was even scared and thinking it twice to talk to her in that manner [1].

Putting an oponent with no fear, knowing they are in a fight and with a 4 in speed, plus a good place to dodge and i bet said oponent won't be "blitzed".


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## Saru (Jul 16, 2013)

Can people stop with the ground wobble argument? Deidara is not going to lose to Tsunade because of a ground wobble.

I find it hilarious that not only did so many people came to the same (wrong) conclusion, but they actually felt the need to repeat something that was said tons of times. Really, if you're going to put that much effort to it, you shouldn't even post.

Deidara dodged Sasuke's shunshin from a considerable distance--easily greater than the one in this fight. 

Every ninja can use shunshin for a speed boost, but Tsunade won't even get the chance to punch the earth Deidara stands on as he can shunshin away from her just as easily. As soon as he finds an opportunity, Deidara will take to the skies, and from there, this match is over (C3).

Deidara's speed in the sky is serious. He was able to evade Gaara's sand assault while still being able to launch counterattacks. Even with Katsuyu, Tsunade has no hope of catching Deidara from the distance which he will put between them. Katsuyu does not even have feats on par with Gaara's sand speed (hell, some people think that Gaara's sand is as fast as Amaterasu... ). 

In spite of his combat advantages (once in the air), Deidara will have difficulty winning this fight due to Katsuyu's presence and Tsunade's regeneration. I still put this match in Deidara's favor, however, due to the extent with which Deidara seems to be able to produce clay.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 16, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Ha ha found it . Fourth panel you can see cracks right where A was.



No you can't. :33

That isn't even where Ay hit the ribcage at; the crack wouldn't appear on the side when he hit the front of it, and we can see it wasn't extending off of the front either because the crack begins on-panel.

What you do actually see is Mei's lava and smoke caking up on the opposite side of Susano'o from where we're viewing it from.


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## Bonly (Jul 16, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> No you can't. :33
> 
> That isn't even where Ay hit the ribcage at;



http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/563/4

A hit the lower part of Susanoo where he jumped away from.



> the crack wouldn't appear on the side when he hit the front of it,



Why is that? Can cracks not extend or does cracks only extend when Tsunade does something only?



> and we can see it wasn't extending off of the front either because the crack begins on-panel.



We can see the a crack at the top look like it's extending such as a similar crack did for Tsunade.  



> What you do actually see is Mei's lava and smoke caking up on the opposite side of Susano'o from where we're viewing it from.



And you can see cracks where A was. How do you think the cracks got there?


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## FlamingRain (Jul 16, 2013)

Bonly said:


> http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/563/4
> 
> A hit the lower part of Susanoo where he jumped away from.



Ay hit _Susano'o_ vertically from the top and jumped away horizontally off of its side.



> Why is that? Can cracks not extend or does cracks only extend when Tsunade does something only?
> 
> We can see the a crack at the top look like it's extending such as a similar crack did for Tsunade.



If the cracks had extended from the front where Ay chopped it, the line would continue from off panel- but it doesn't, it starts and stops in that one panel. Where those lines begin is not where Ay struck _Susano'o_, he struck a different spot, and if the lines aren't originating from that spot, then they aren't a result of Ay's strike.

The line higher than the "piin" sound effect stops before it touches the edge and resembles the lines in the smoke behind Ay's foot that are coming off of the lava, while the lines under the "piin" sound effect form an arc that looks similar the ones the edges Mei's lava were making as it caked up on the sides, and it's at about the same height as those arcs as well. Meaning we're just looking at Mei's lava because _Susano'o_ is see-through.



> And you can see cracks where A was. How do you think the cracks got there?



Those are not cracks you see in the first place, those are the outlines of Mei's lava and the smoke coming off of it.


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## Bonly (Jul 16, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Ay hit _Susano'o_ vertically from the top and jumped away horizontally off of its side.
> 
> 
> 
> If the cracks had extended from the front where Ay chopped it, the line would continue from off panel- but it doesn't, it starts and stops in that one panel. Where those lines begin is not where Ay struck _Susano'o_, he struck a different spot, and if the lines aren't originating from that spot, then they aren't a result of Ay's strike.



Your logic fails here buddy. We have seen after Tsunade punched Susanoo, cracks seemed to stop and not continue yet when we saw a better view of the Susanoo we see that the cracks the seemed to stop and not continue actually do keep on going. Hell we've seen cracks pop up separate from other cracks away from the area where Tsunade directly punched Susanoo, you've got to come with more then this to suggest those cracks aren't from A. 



> The line higher than the "piin" sound effect stops before it touches the edge and resembles the lines in the smoke behind Ay's foot that are coming off of the lava, while the lines under the "piin" sound effect form an arc that looks similar the ones the edges Mei's lava were making as it caked up on the sides, and it's at about the same height as those arcs as well. Meaning we're just looking at Mei's lava because _Susano'o_ is see-through.
> 
> Those are not cracks you see in the first place, those are the outlines of Mei's lava and the smoke coming off of it.



So its the outlines of Mei's lava and smoke even though no other time a Susanoo had been hit with Mei's lava, has shown such(when all it ever shows is to make it look liquidity due to melting it), instead of it being cracks from A punching it when he's shown to be powerful enough break a rib of a susanoo? Welp no need to reply back.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 16, 2013)

It's very obviously cracked from Ei. The crack is right where his foot was, which means it is right where Ei was. Mei's lava had not even begun to reach there yet.

And Mei's lava doesn't crack anything so I don't know where that idea could have come from.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 16, 2013)

Subtle, I'm not bothering with you anymore.



Bonly said:


> Your logic fails here buddy. We have seen after Tsunade punched Susanoo, cracks seemed to stop and not continue yet when we saw a better view of the Susanoo we see that the cracks the seemed to stop and not continue actually do keep on going. Hell we've seen cracks pop up separate from other cracks away from the area where Tsunade directly punched Susanoo, you've got to come with more then this to suggest those cracks aren't from A.



No it doesn't, because what I'm saying is that the cracks aren't connected to the point of impact- which they were in Tsunade's case. We don't need a better view of _Susano'o_ because we can see already see the end of the lines in that panel you showed me, and if the lines were going to extend anywhere else they would have done so by the time Susano'o sank further into the lava and Ay jumped off, because when Tsunade strikes it the cracks have already extended across the rest of the ribcage by the time her fist stops actually touching _Susano'o_. Making the panel bigger would change nothing as we'd be looking at the same result, and the lines remain unconnected to the point Ay struck _Susano'o_ at.

We never see cracks pop up separately from where Tsunade hit _Susano'o_, _all _of the cracks she caused were _extending radially_ _*from*_ her fist's point of impact (1), not just randomly popping up on the side with no connection to the point of impact whatsoever, which is what would have had to happen with Ay and would make no sense.



> So its the outlines of Mei's lava and smoke even though no other time a Susanoo had been hit with Mei's lava, has shown such(when all it ever shows is to make it look liquidity due to melting it), instead of it being cracks from A punching it when he's shown to be powerful enough break a rib of a susanoo? Welp no need to reply back.



Yes it is. I don't know why you say "no other time _Susano'o_ had been hit with Mei's lava" as if that means anything because there was no other time when the ribcage was being halfway submerged by it to even compare it to. Sasuke's _Susano'o_ isn't equitable Madara's either, Ay has not shown to be powerful enough to break a rib off of the _Susano'o_ in question _without Onoki's help_.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 16, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Subtle, I'm not bothering with you anymore.



ummm, ok? That was sufficiently condescending. If this is because I didn't reply with the link right away, it is because I never noticed your response up until revisiting this thread after it had already been provided.

My point stands. We see cracks. Ei hit Susano'o immediately before hand and was seen leaping from the point where we see cracks. You can say that he hit Susano'o at a different point, but he also landed with his body (including his legs) aligned with that same point (although further down on a hypothetical vertical axis). We see him leap from the point of the cracks, which means that his body was where the cracks were, and the fact that it doesn't align with the previous panel is a drawing error. Ei's own body is a standard of measurement against which to judge the position of the cracks.

And the only alternative explanation being offered is "Mei's lava", which had not yet reached that part of Susano'o and doesn't cause cracks (it causes things to melt). So in the battle of competing explanations, Ei hitting Susano'o and causing cracks is the better one.

suction

Where Ei's hand is isn't that far from where the cracks show up here: suction

That is definitely within the confines of Kishi's trouble with perspective between different angles. And those are definitely cracks. And the first two panels, coming immediately on the tail of Ei hitting Susano'o, indicate that his strike is moving it and pushing it deeper into the lava. And Mei's lava melts and doesn't look anything like that. And since no part of the lava had made contact with Susano'o, there shouldn't have been any markings there at all. I don't know how those cracks could be said to be the outlines of smoke and lava since they look nothing like smoke and lava at all.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 16, 2013)

There is something called a bad match-up and this is one of them. Deidara jumps in the air on a bird after using a desperate C1 bird to separate himself from her or a dodge to barely get away. Seeing as deidara used these tactics to avoid sasuke's godly shunshin tsunade will not be able to strike deidara before he employ the same tactics to escape her.

After that things like C3 and C4 will kill her or push her regen to limits and allow her to be killed easily or she will just be killed outright(though tsunade do have the crazy byakugo so i want to say she survive one helping of either assault even if barely). But yeah deidara wins this for me despite tsunade being a stronger fighter overall imo.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 16, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> ummm, ok? That was sufficiently condescending. If this is because I didn't reply with the link right away, it is because I never noticed your response up until revisiting this thread after it had already been provided.



 I apologize, I could have worded that differently.

It was because you didn't say anything in your last post much if any different than what Bonly is saying anyway, and I didn't say Mei's lava cracked anything in the first place, so I was like "not gonna".

But I guess I'm going to go ahead with this next one.



> My point stands.



It doesn't.



> We see cracks.



We don't.



> Ei hit Susano'o immediately before hand and was seen leaping from the point where we see cracks. You can say that he hit Susano'o at a different point, but he also landed with his body (including his legs) aligned with that same point (although further down on a hypothetical vertical axis). We see him leap from the point of the cracks, which means that his body was where the cracks were, and the fact that it doesn't align with the previous panel is a drawing error. Ei's own body is a standard of measurement against which to judge the position of the cracks.



The cracks would only appear where he landed his chop at. Ay proceeds to leap off of _Susano'o_'s side, not off of the top of it, and _Susano'o_ wasn't shown rolling to the side either. If I hit an egg with a spoon on the front I'm not going to leave a random break in the side. The lines can't change their position like Ay himself can to be in a more favorable spot to leap horizontally like he did, and it isn't as if Ay had to come down with his feet together right below his hand. Do you pay attention to any athletics? Have you ever noticed someone spread their feet before they jump? Same thing we see here.



> And the only alternative explanation being offered is "Mei's lava", which had not yet reached that part of Susano'o and doesn't cause cracks (it causes things to melt).



You're not looking at the panel if you think Mei's lava hadn't reached that part of _Susano'o_; we can already see lava on the same side we're viewing _Susano'o _ from at the same height. The lava was doing the same thing on the other end, _Susano'o_ is see-through, and because of that we would see the lava caking up on that side as well. And I'm not saying her lava caused cracks, I'm saying those are not even cracks. Those lines look just like the lines in the smoke to the right of the sound effect of Ay jumping, and the uneven edges of the lava as _Susano'o_ sinks further into it.


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## Mithos (Jul 17, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Yeah... Blitzing a scared Shizune, who on top of that was in a closed place, less skilled in taijutsu, taken off guard and probably paralyzed by Tsunade's chakra or killer intent just like Kakashi was with Orochimaru is not such an amazing feat. The conditions were heavily in her favor. And Shizune was even scared and thinking it twice to talk to her in that manner [1].
> 
> Putting an oponent with no fear, knowing they are in a fight and with a 4 in speed, plus a good place to dodge and i bet said oponent won't be "blitzed".



The speed stat doesn't include reaction speed, so I wouldn't say that just because someone has a 4 they could avoid Tsunade just based off that. I think any non Elite Jounin ninja or higher would have fallen the same way as Shizune in that situation. 

Orochimaru, who has a 4.5 and is high level ninja, wasn't able to avoid Tsunade's attack from the ground, even though he was watching her intently. And he had plently of room to move to the side or backwards, but he couldn't do it in time. 

I'm not saying that Tsunade is going to be "blitzing" everyone, or Deidara for that matter - but reaction speed and evasive ability is much more important than someone's speed stat. We've seen plenty of examples in the manga where someone will a sizable speed advantage (according to the DB) isn't able to overwhelm their opponent, and is also unable to avoid being hit. 

For example, Orochimaru vs Hiruzen: despite a 1.5 disadvantage in speed, Hiruzen was able to react accordingly to Orochimaru and the Edo Hokage, as well as completely overwhelm Orochimaru in CQC. We don't know what the Hokages' speed stats are, but I bet that being an Edo wouldn't decrease their physical movement speed. And Hiruzen was also able to catch them without being able to see. 

Asuma vs Hidan: Asuma has a 1 point advantage in speed, and they were even in taijutsu skill. However, Asuma, even with support from Shikamaru, was not able to hit Hidan and was losing that fight.


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## Bonly (Jul 17, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> The speed stat doesn't include reaction speed,



Actually it does. Cordelia had posted a picture of the speed databook part not to long ago and it had reaction speed along with it.


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## Mithos (Jul 17, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Actually it does. Cordelia had posted a picture of the speed databook part not to long ago and it had reaction speed along with it.



Can I see this picture?


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## Bonly (Jul 17, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Can I see this picture?


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## Jad (Jul 17, 2013)

Oh, that's really neat and handy. Rep for Cord.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 17, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> :The cracks would only appear where he landed his chop at. Ay proceeds to leap off of _Susano'o_'s side, not off of the top of it, and _Susano'o_ wasn't shown rolling to the side either. If I hit an egg with a spoon on the front I'm not going to leave a random break in the side. The lines can't change their position like Ay himself can to be in a more favorable spot to leap horizontally like he did, and it isn't as if Ay had to come down with his feet together right below his hand. Do you pay attention to any athletics? Have you ever noticed someone spread their feet before they jump? Same thing we see here.



Shinobi don't spread their feet before they jump. You would rather argue that Kishi is using precise athletics than that he moved a couple feet off with his drawing? Ei's body was aligned with where he hit Susano'o and we see him leaping off Susano'o aligned with where the cracks are. It seems like it's a little close to those "joints' (the circles) on Susano'o from one page to another but _not that much_ and Kishi is terrible with perspective nor does he make people move or jump realistically by making their bodies bend, contort, spread their legs, etc with any consistency. We see that Ei's feet are apart when he hits Susano'o, but not that much. 


> You're not looking at the panel if you think Mei's lava hadn't reached that part of _Susano'o_; we can already see lava on the same side we're viewing _Susano'o _ from at the same height. The lava was doing the same thing on the other end, _Susano'o_ is see-through, and because of that we would see the lava caking up on that side as well. And I'm not saying her lava caused cracks, I'm saying those are not even cracks. Those lines look just like the lines in the smoke to the right of the sound effect of Ay jumping, and the uneven edges of the lava as _Susano'o_ sinks further into it



enough

First off, there wouldn't be smoke below Susano'o. Just lava. Unless you think there was open air below Susano'o, and it was levitating. Secondly, those cracks look _nothing at all_ like the lines in the smoke, which are wavy, like smoke lines, and not random and jagged, like cracks in Susano'o. Nor does it look like the smooth lava lines. Furthermore, the lines you see in the third panel as Susano'o moves further down into the lava are the lines of Susano'o itself (which are much straighter than the jagged lines we see from the cracks) which you can tell because they then disappear in the fourth panel as Susano'o sinks. 

The cracks are very, very, very, exceedingly clearly cracks. They look nothing like the lines of Susano'o, the lava lines, or the smoke lines and if your argument is that Susano'o is see through, then it is odd that we see nothing else except at that slight point. We don't even see the dark shadow that should be Madara's body in the middle of Susano'o. So no, we aren't seeing through Susano'o.


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## LostSelf (Jul 17, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> The speed stat doesn't include reaction speed, so I wouldn't say that just because someone has a 4 they could avoid Tsunade just based off that. I think any non Elite Jounin ninja or higher would have fallen the same way as Shizune in that situation.
> 
> Orochimaru, who has a 4.5 and is high level ninja, wasn't able to avoid Tsunade's attack from the ground, even though he was watching her intently. And he had plently of room to move to the side or backwards, but he couldn't do it in time.
> 
> ...



Actually, speed counts reflexes. But well, Bonly gave the image.

The thing is that Shizune was scared and taken off guard because she didn't even thought what Tsunade was going to do to her.

If an oponent that is not scared and knows what's going to happen, then i doubt Tsunade can do that. It's pretty clear that Shizune was even sweating.

Orochimaru's example has nothing debatable. He couldn't react. However, what attack has Oro dodged in the entire series? I guess he has been hit by anything thrown at him.

Hiruzen sacrificed some hits in order to tag the Hokages, and they were toying with him, plus being not even near their full power.

Hidan is another story since he is very acrobatic. 

Anyway i'm not saying Tsunade is slow either, i just don't find her blitzing Shizune an amazing feat. Shizune is not the best fighter here, even Kabuto with less speed (The same as Tsunade) at the time trashed her. And she wasn't scared at all against him.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 17, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> It seems like it's a little close to those "joints' (the circles) on Susano'o from one page to another but _not that much_ and Kishi is terrible with perspective nor does he make people move or jump realistically by making their bodies bend, contort, spread their legs, etc with any consistency. We see that Ei's feet are apart when he hits Susano'o, but not that much.



It's hardly precise athletics, it's natural- athletics would just be a good place to see it cuz they jump more often. Ay isn't necessitated to land his feet where he landed his chop nor is he required to stay in that same spot even if he did before he jumps as opposed to getting to a more favorable spot to jump from anyway- why jump over and out from where he was when he can just jump straight out by landing his foot on the side when he came down? He wasn't stuck in place, and we see him leap off of the side when he hit it from the top.

And I'm not going to be able to get on board with "drawing error" either.



> First off, there wouldn't be smoke below Susano'o. Just lava. Unless you think there was open air below Susano'o, and it was levitating. Secondly, those cracks look _nothing at all_ like the lines in the smoke, which are wavy, like smoke lines, and not random and jagged, like cracks in Susano'o. Nor does it look like the smooth lava lines.



I didn't say there was smoke below _Susano'o_, just beside it, because there is smoke coming off of the lava, and that we're seeing it through this side of _Susano'o_. The line above the "piin" looks just like the line in the smoke to the right of it and the lines below it look like lava caking up.

I'm not sure what _Susano'o_'s own lines have to do with what I was saying, though if we've reached the point where we're just going  "it looks nothing like " and "it looks exactly like" it's just going to keep going in circles.



> then it is odd that we see nothing else except at that slight point. We don't even see the dark shadow that should be Madara's body in the middle of Susano'o. So no, we aren't seeing through Susano'o.



No it isn't. We don't see anything else because that is the _side_ of _Susano'o_, which is quite a bit wider than Madara himself, who is still in the _middle_- we shouldn't be seeing his shadow and we don't. So yes, we are seeing through _Susano'o_.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 17, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> It's hardly precise athletics, it's natural- athletics would just be a good place to see it cuz they jump more often. Ay isn't necessitated to land his feet where he landed his chop nor is he required to stay in that same spot even if he did before he jumps as opposed to getting to a more favorable spot to jump from anyway- why jump over and out from where he was when he can just jump straight out by landing his foot on the side when he came down? He wasn't stuck in place, and we see him leap off of the side when he hit it from the top.
> 
> And I'm not going to be able to get on board with "drawing error" either.



Kishi doesn't tend to draw legs being spread apart for a leap, and I don't recall him ever not showing the leap except for the foot and taking the care to have the shinobi's foot further to the side to show that the legs spread apart. Also, we saw where Ei's feet where relative to the chop, because we saw his whole body chop. You keep calling that the "side", but that isn't what I am seeing at all. 

Suigetsu and Juugo

Look where Ei's right leg is (oh, and also take note of the fact that we can't see through Susano'o).

Also take note of where the joint holes are. They are not on the side, but are on a diagonal. And notice that Ei's right hand is no more than a couple feet from the joint hole on his left.

Suigetsu and Juugo

That is Ei's right foot jumping off from the left of the joint hole, which is on a diagonal and not a side. 

Go back.

Suigetsu and Juugo

Notice where the lava is on the side. It's already up right next to the joint hole but also below it.

Go forward.

 Suigetsu and Juugo

Notice that Susano'o sinks deeper into the lava. If Ei was jumping off the side, we should at least see the lava near his feet, if he wasn't already standing in it. 

A drawing error moving the location where Ei hit, and by my interpretation cracked, Susano'o a foot over has far fewer holes in it than your explanation. Which is, in every detail, inaccurate to the drawings.


> I didn't say there was smoke below _Susano'o_, just beside it, because there is smoke coming off of the lava, and that we're seeing it through this side of _Susano'o_.



And I've already shown that isn't the side of Susano'o. It is on a diagonal, which means if you are seeing through Susano'o, we should be seeing either Madara or the lava below.


> The line above the "piin" looks just like the line in the smoke to the right of it and the lines below it look like lava caking up.



The line above the "piin" bears a slight resemblance to the line of the smoke, but the smoke that we see and you are referring to is neither on the side of Susano'o nor is it at any angle that should reflected from that diagonal that high up the vertical axis of Susano'o. That isn't how reflection works. And the lines below it look nothing at all like the lava. Not even in the least bit. So I reject that claim flat out. We see the lava caking on right next to the crack, and the lines are fluid, not jagged.


> I'm not sure what _Susano'o_'s own lines have to do with what I was saying, though if we've reached the point where we're just going  "it looks nothing like " and "it looks exactly like" it's just going to keep going in circles.



I think we have reached that point. The only line that bears any resemblance to the lines in the smoke is the line above the pinn, but they aren't at the same angle, shouldn't be reflected, and aren't  on the other side to see through. The lava has fluid lines and not jagged lines. Your interpretation is a huge stretch in every aspect and requires precise symmetry, Kishi drawing Ei's leg in a different place to show something he almost never shows, and refers to the diagonal as the side. My interpretation simply requires a minor drawing error, which Kishi does all the time (I mean heck, he has placed Kakashi's Sharingan on the wrong side even),  moving the perspective a foot or so off.


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## Cord (Jul 18, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Actually it does. Cordelia had posted a picture of the speed databook part not to long ago and it had reaction speed along with it.



Hoho. I don't remember posting it though, I merely  it. The posting credit will have to go to . c;

Deidara wins by the way. I've always considered him as possibly one of the worst opponents for Tsunade. A ranged combatant who can effectively stay out of his opponent's typical attack range- provided that he could immediately mount on his Kibaku Nendo bird at the start of the brawl. Once he's done that, he could rain down bombs for as long as he please. And I'm also one of those who actually believe that C4 overwhelms Byakugo, albeit both deal with cellular level of destruction and reconstruction respectively. The destructive capacity of C4, as manifested when it disintegrated an *entire* living, breathing human in just four panels, is greater and faster than how Byakugo repairs damaged organs basing from what we've seen of it, thus far. So if this match would ever come down to C4 vs Byakugo. . . I can see the former prevailing.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 18, 2013)

Thought this was done like a week ago?

Anyway still say it could go either way but leaning towards Tsunade. I see her dodging C1 for the most part but is forced to use byakugou once he takes to the skies with C2. She dodges the bulk of the blast but byakugou will be needed to quickly heal the rest of her wounds. He will likely upgrade to C4 once he realizes C2 is not working but I can see Katsuya being used and acid clipping the dragon's wings (C2 dragon never appeared to be that fast IMO). C4 is used but byakugou manages to heal through it. Without C0 to fall back on, Tsunade could win if she has enough chakra left after byakugou and potential summoning. Leaning towards Tsunade here.


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