# Jiraiya and Orochimaru vs. Itachi



## Rocky (May 21, 2013)

*Location: *An _enormous_ abandoned building with a courtyard. The building has multiple floors.
*Distance:* Teams start in the courtyard, 30m apart. The Sanin start closest to the building.
*Mindset: *IC
*Knowledge:* Manga, The Sanin have pooled.
*Restrictions:* The Mangekyou Crow, Reanimation.

Itachi is alive and healthy.


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## Trojan (May 21, 2013)

Originally Posted by Ch144, p8
Kisame:
「アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手でも私じゃあ 分かりませんよ…」
「次元が違う」
"You might be able to somehow defeat him, but me, well I don't know..."
"Our levels are too far apart"

Itachi:
「ああ…やり合えは二人共殺されるか良くて相打ちというところ」
「…たとえ人数を増やしたとしても変わらないだろう」
"Yeah... If we fought him, we might both be killed. If it goes well, we might take him with us."
"Even if the number of people were to increase, this probably wouldn't change"

Kisame
「ラーメン屋で　やっと見付けたはいいが…お守りが　あの゛伝説の三忍゛とは」
「彼が相手では゛木ノ葉のうちは一族゛も゛霧の忍刀七人衆゛の名もかすんでしまう」
"It was good we finally found them by the ramen store, but... his guardian is of those 'Legendary Three Ninja' "
"He, as an opponent, makes 'Konoha's Uchiha clan' and the 'Seven Shinobi Swordmen of the Mist' seem like nothing."

Itachi:
「ああ…しかし……」
「どんな強者にも弱点というのがあるものだ……」
"Yes... However......"
"No matter how strong a person is, he is bound to have a weakness..."


Jman in base >> Itachi
SM Jman >>>> Itachi 
Itachi > Oro

Jman & Oro >>>>>> Itachi 
SM Jman & Oro >>>>>>>>> Itachi

So, yes, the Sannin stomp him so hard.


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## Grimm6Jack (May 21, 2013)

I won't say it's a stomp but the duo obviously win. Jiraiya on his own wins against Itachi more times than not. With Orochimaru added it's a 10/10 win for the duo.

If this were to be Orochimaru with all of Kabuto's techniques? He would solo as well, this time Izanami wouldn't work because Orochimaru accepts who he is, he know's his true nature unlike Kabuto.


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## Bonly (May 21, 2013)

Itachi can beat either one in a 1V1 match more times then not but he's not going to beat both of them at once.


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## Trojan (May 21, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Itachi can *beat either one* in a 1V1 match more times then not but he's not going to beat both of them at once.


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## DaVizWiz (May 21, 2013)

Rocky you have to restrict Numa. 

C'mon dude.


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## Baroxio (May 21, 2013)

Rather than  taking on the tard army immediately I think I will settle for just one for now.



TorJaN said:


> Originally Posted by Ch144, p8
> Kisame:
> 「アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手でも私じゃあ 分かりませんよ」
> 「次元が違う」
> ...




*Spoiler*: _Official Viz Translation_ 



Kisame: Even if you might be able to take him on, I'm not so sure about me...He's in a different league.
Itachi: Yeah... If we faced off, we might end up killing each other. At the very least, we'd hurt each other badly...And even if I had more backup, it probably wouldn't change the outcome.
Kisame: It was great finally finding him at the ramen shop, but... His babysitter was one of the three great shinobi of Konoha legend. With him as our enemy, even the titles Konoha's Uchiha clan and seven ninja swordsmen of the mist pale in comparison.
Itachi: Yeah... However...Even the strongest heroes have their weaknesses...




You can go to Cyphon's  for more information.

As you can see from the official translation made by people who actually get _*paid *_to translate this shit, you're completely wrong in your assertions.

In fact, even your own translation isn't much different. 



> It was great finally finding him at the ramen shop, but... *His *babysitter was one of the three great shinobi of Konoha legend.





> *His *babysitter



Because the guardian is Sanin Jiraiya, "his" must therefore refer to the Kyuubi Jinchuriki of unknown ability, Naruto Uzumaki.

As such, all prior useages of "him" in the text must also refer to Naruto, as it is only in the above sentence that the subject of the sentence changes from Naruto to Naruto's babysitter.

In other words, simple english.

On to the next point.



> Kisame: It was great finally finding him at the ramen shop, but... His babysitter was one of the three great shinobi of Konoha legend. With him as our enemy, even the *titles *Konoha's Uchiha clan and seven ninja swordsmen of the mist pale in comparison.



Nowhere does Kisame imply that Jiraiya, who they haven't officially met yet, is stronger than they are. They simply don't have the knowledge. The comparison made here is one of *titles*, something your cherry picked translation leaves out entirely.

Kisame has knowledge on their titles. A valid comparison between the two can indeed be made. As of this point, he has no knowledge on their relative power scales, and therefore cannot make a valid comparison.

Simple, yes?

Note too that this part validates what I stated earlier about Kisame and Itachi talking about Naruto instead of Jiraiya, because aside from completely erroneous grammar, Kisame would essentially be repeating himself by comparing the difference in power and then going on to compare the difference in title.

It serves no purpose.



			
				Torjan said:
			
		

> Jman in base >> Itachi
> SM Jman >>>> Itachi
> Itachi > Oro



Not only is this completely erroneous, but going by your own graph Base Jiraiya should logically be >>> Oro, which has been proven wrong not only the Sanin fight but in the very fight where Orochimaru left the village in the first place. At no point in time was Orochimaru below Base Jiraiya.

Furthermore judging by the different number of ">" signs, you seem to be asserting out of your ass that the difference between Itachi and Base Jiraiya is somehow larger than the difference between Itachi and Orochimaru.

This, despite Kisame's statement that it wasn't necessary for Itachi specifically to retreat against Jiraiya, and despite all evidence pointing to Itachi having easily crushed Orochimaru (2 manga one-panels, Databook speech).

In other words, you're clearly biased.

Just to point out for fun, Kisame's statement on Itachi not needing to retreat is an *enlightened *statement that came after not just the previous statements, but the battle between Jiraiya and Itachi itself. 

As such, it should be taken at greater value than the statement made before any valid comparisons could be drawn.




> Jman & Oro >>>>>> Itachi
> SM Jman & Oro >>>>>>>>> Itachi
> 
> So, yes, the Sannin stomp him so hard.



More baseless assertions. I doubt I have the time to respond to the likely shit-flurries that will no doubt come after me, but know that the Sanin are seriously lacking in the OHKO feat department.

The fact of the matter is, Itachi has more OHKO's than them, would beat either of them fairly easy in a 1v1 situation, and on top of that, is far faster than either of the two. His one-shots also activate faster than most of their techniques do and he's smarter to boot. He can counter almost anything they have instantly available, however their counters to him are purely situational at best.

If at any point Itachi feels that it is best to use his Magenkyou at any point in time, the Sanin will not fare well. 

But why leave it at that? 

Let's go into it. 

*Genjutsu and Tsukyomi​*Neither Jiraiya nor Orochimaru have shown the ability to act without either eye or finger contact. To date, Itachi has caught literally all of his opponents in a genjutsu of some kind. Orochimaru has canonically fell victim to it before. Suffice it to say, the odds are stacked against them that at least one of them will be genjutsu'd.

At that point, Itachi can either paralyze them, leave them standing there, or as he showed with Deidara, get them to use their own abilities against their team. At that point, it's essentially game. If they attempt to break the genjutsu, Itachi can shank them. And if they attempt to break each other out they would have to do so while manuvering through attacks from the faster, more reactive Itachi as well as from their genjutsu'd mate. Not very likely.

The fact that summons, which both of these characters rely on heavily, can be genjutsu'd to turn against their masters only adds to Itachi's chances.

*Amaterasu​*Neither Orochimaru nor Jiraiya have shown the speed necessary to dodge this and if they are busy avoiding his eyes they won't even know it's coming before it's too late.

Orochimaru has the ability to tank the damage and escape via Oral Rebirth, but Jiraiya has no means with which to do the same. The fact that Itachi has full knowledge on Oral Rebirth means that few, if any Amaterasu's will be wasted, and all shots of Amaterasu that "miss" their target can stay on the field and allow Itachi to control the flow of the battle.


*Susano​*Neither of them have anything in their arsenal which can penetrate it, the most they can do is attempt to prep Frog Song or risk attacking in vain while leaving themselves open to counterattacks.

With the absurdly fast Totsuka, not even Orochimaru's durability will save him here.

*Conclusion​*While I've talked a lot about Itachi, I haven't touched much upon the Sanin's chances.

The Sanin are not the kings of combat. However they are the kings of subterfuge. Their ability to hide and attempt guerilla warfare is amongst the highest of all ninjas. With giant, powerful summons and spam of every kind, they can control the battlefield rather well. They can push somebody like Itachi straight to his limit by abusing guerilla warfare.

But the problem is that they are facing a character who is faster than them, smarter than them, can counter their spam with an absolute defense, can recruit or kill their own summons via genjutsu and/or Amaterasu, and has the Sharingan to keep track of their movements wherever they are and find them.

Add in Itachi's various one-shots and ability to make clones faster than any of them can react to while switching places with them and Itachi has everything he needs to win this battle.


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## Kai (May 21, 2013)

While the Sannin have the possibility of wearing Itachi down with sheer versatility of technique, Itachi's jutsu execution is on a completely different level. Amaterasu and Susano'o are too overwhelmingly fast while trying to avoid genjutsu at the same time.

Itachi spends a considerable amount of chakra leaving Susano'o on at all times and Amaterasu to gain an immediate advantage in killing Jiraiya, and spends the last traces of his chakra in locking Orochimaru's mind within Izanami.

Itachi high difficulty.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2013)

Itachi soloes 


These two don't stand much of a chance imo. They can't deal with B blitzing Shunshin + the genjutsu / shuriken combo he later on pulled which even put B in a tight spot. Or Sage Kabuto deceiving feints he pulled.
He can close with Amy and/or Susano'o.


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## Trojan (May 21, 2013)

Baroxio

1-  I don't really know how to write the translator's names I even forget his name. lol 
but those who talked about him to me always say that he's one of the best! I even asked 
Takl about it and he told me it's true and he said they (Kisame & Itachi) were talking about JMAN, 

making them talking about Naruto is nonsense because it's been said in the manga that they are on a
different level. 
this

about knowledge, well that's all your expectations and they are not proofs. Sadly. 

2- if Jman can take BOTH of them down it's CANON, so saying that he can while Oro cannot
has nothing to do with Oro being > Jman, just if Jman's jutsus are better in that case that doesn't
mean he's stronger than Oro. 

Saying Itachi > Jman *IS BULLSHIT*. Itachi already admit that he is NOT as powerful as Jman EVEN WITH KISAME. Why would I take any of the members' opinions while Itachi HIMSELF Disagree with that? Do you know him better than himself? No! 


> The fact of the matter is, Itachi has more OHKO's than them, would beat either of them fairly easy in a 1v1 situation, and on top of that, is far faster than either of the two. His one-shots also activate faster than most of their techniques do and he's smarter to boot. He can counter almost anything they have instantly available, however their counters to him are purely situational at best.



All of that and the stuff after it is YOUR OPINION! 
why would I take yours when KISHI told us who will win? 
Do you know better than Kishi in his manga? Are you the one who will draw the fight if it even happened?
No, but Kishi will. So his FACTS >>>>>>>> your opinion. Simple, right? 

the others it will take too much time ~.~ and as I said it's your opinion which is fine
if we don't know really who will win. BUT WE DO KNOW WHO WILL WIN STRAIGHT FROM THE MANGA.
but



> Neither of them have anything in their arsenal which can penetrate it, the most they can do is attempt to prep Frog Song or risk attacking in vain while leaving themselves open to counterattacks.



Yame Name is an earth jutsu and we know that you can attack the susanoo user by that
as when it happened to Madara.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 21, 2013)

Hmm well the battlefield is certainly expansive so jiraiya and orochimaru have some space to really play with their movesets(which can serve a lot of purposes). Things like multiple floors allow jiraiya to reach SM and take the match with ma and pa's demonic illusion. Oro with full knowledge on how itachi battles should allow for jiraiya too avoid the genjutsu trickery while he escapes to hiding. Oro cannot really take on itachi head up with current feats and win even with full knowledge on genjutsu because of susanoo. He would need summons to stall/tire out itachi while fighting susanoo. Orochimaru should be able to tank/heal a great deal so itachi is only killing him with the totsuka blade.

It basically comes down to whether jiraiya can hit itachi with the sound genjutsu or if itachi's battle output becomes terrible from stamina. While itachi has one shot techs these are still S-rank ninja and he may get one of those off before suffering the demonic illusion. I do not see the duo losing this.


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## Winterfell (May 21, 2013)

Every one knows that itachi was saying jman would beat him to avoid a conflict, he was a good guy remember.

OP said healthy itachi: now as a sick man, with very little stamina he was able to outalst sasuke, so a healthy itachi, we can assume he has atleast twice that much stamina and chakra. In this state he would not suffer any sudden drawbacks from using MS while jiraiya has no knowledge on totsuka, nor does he ahve the attack power to get through susanoo. Jiraiya will have to go hide/stay aaway form battle to use sage mode, until then orochiamru would easily fall prey to high level genjutsu such as tsukiyumi. and be sealed upon jiraiyas return any toad summonings can be controlled with sharingan allowing for jiraiya to be open for a surprise attack, or K0 from his own summon, if not K0 give itachi enough time to totsuka j Man, at the very least be on his next move while jiraiya is still recovering. 

Healthy itachi is on another level. using silly quotes like above me are useless.


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## Dr. White (May 21, 2013)

Baraxio soloed the thread, and Kai cleaned up, nothing really more to say.


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## Winchester Gospel (May 21, 2013)

Itachi doesn't have a lot of information on Jiraiya, whereas Orochimaru has full knowledge on Itachi, including Izanami from the re-absorption of his own chakra from Kabuto.

Given what they know, I don't think the Sannin are ever going to try and win an open battle against the Mangekyō Sharingan, and while there exists the possibility of Itachi attempting a blitz with his most deadly techniques in an attempt to down one or both of his opponents from the onset, he's running half-blind of their capabilities into a two against one scenario where the enemy knows exactly what they want to get done at the match start.

And what they want to do right now is _escape_, so that's exactly what they'll do. Itachi's the fastest character here, with the greatest jutsu execution speed and the most exemplary shunshin, but I don't think even he can stop two separate individuals from fleeing his sight when they're both also Kage-class and when they've got clones and summons and any of a wide range of barrage and supplementary techniques they could use to stop his advance.

Once they've gone, it becomes almost suicidal for Itachi to follow them into their cover, so I think the match is just about done then. With exceptional skill in fūinjutsu, kinjutsu, summoning, and espionage, Orochimaru and Jiraiya have the most extensive array of supporting abilities in the manga between the two of them, and amidst a haunted house, they'll be sure to make excellent use of them.

I think Itachi's smart enough to know that he's at a disadvantage should he walk into their home territory, but his options are limited: in an enclosed area, gamaguchi shibari forces him to the Mangekyō; yomi numa forces him to the Mangekyō; gama hyōrō can outright spell his doom; he can perceive the barrier chakra with his Sharingan, but between tengai hōjin, snake sensing, sage perception, and the cursed seal, the Sannin can outplay him at this elabyrinthe game.

Itachi can use clones to scout them out, to let trigger their traps prematurely, but the Sannin have clones as well, and they've got more chakra than he does even without sage mode and cursed sealing. Clones that are every bit as observant as the originals; clones that can fill the halls with venomous snakes, or flesh-eating flesh, or invisible obstructions, or Hellish mires; clones that can merge with materials and walk through walls; clones that can flatten into land and hide in the shadows; that avoid and trap even the Rinnegan.

I assume that a scenario such as the above was precisely why the thread creator decided upon such a setting, and decided to emphasize its features such that it could not easily be removed by Itachi without his toiling away with the Mangekyō Sharingan or exerting himself with elemental spam that could be effortlessly countered by Bunta and co. alone.

Given the Uchiha's choice between following the enemy into their lair, or approaching them slowly and with cunning, or waiting in the open for an optimal engagement, I think Jiraiya makes it into Sage Mode, at which point even an open battle could be a losing one for an elite dōjutsu user: fūton sunabokori as used by a sage and an almost sage is going to be even more effective than Mei's kirigakure against Madara's Rinnegan; Tsukuyomi and other genjutsu lose all meaning immediately, while Amaterasu and the Sword of Totsuka become hopeless endeavors with their instantaneity crippled against multiplying, unseeable opponents.

Every one of Jiraiya and Orochimaru's combined attacks will be covering the sky or coming from underground; they're not getting passed Susano'o, but they necessitate it, and that's what really matters. Then comes magen: gamarinshō which forces Itachi into the same panic felt by Nagato at any point during the battle, but this time the real one _is_ with them, and the choir has got someone of Jiraiya's calibre to watch their back in kind. Someone rather slithery.


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## Bonly (May 21, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Saying Itachi > Jman *IS BULLSHIT*. Itachi already admit that he is NOT as powerful as Jman EVEN WITH KISAME. Why would I take any of the members' opinions while Itachi HIMSELF Disagree with that? Do you know him better than himself? No.



This is something I don't understand. How can you use what Itachi said to say that no matter what happens, Itachi will always be weaker then Jiraiya when Itachi also said(from your post) 





> Itachi:
> 「ああ?やり合えは二人共殺されるか良くて相打ちというところ」
> 「?たとえ人数を増やしたとしても変わらないだろう」
> "Yeah... If we fought him, we might both be killed. If it goes well, we might take him with us."
> "*Even if the number of people were to increase, this probably wouldn't change*"


.

We have already seen Jiraiya lose to the leader alone so Itachi's already false in saying "Even if the number of people were to increase, this probably wouldn't change" is already false. Are you going to say that Jiraiya is stronger then the entire Akatsuki organization? If not then couldn't Itachi also be false in saying Jiraiya's stronger?


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## Empathy (May 21, 2013)

I don't think Orochimaru can be put down by anything less than the _Totsuka no Tsurugi_. The fact that Itachi preempted Orochimaru's seal to release genjutsu is evidence that Itachi at least thought Orochimaru had a chance of breaking his genjutsu. The fact that Sasuke put him in the very same genjutsu and Orochimaru is later shown without it, supports this. A lossed limb is nothing to Orochimaru and the pain sensation should've released him. I doubt their fight ended at that point anyway. Hebi Sasuke has already shown some degree of canonical counter toward _Amaterasu_ via Orochimaru's _kawarimi_, albeit he wasn't trying to kill him. Adding that to Orochimaru's already difficulty in being killed gives him a tremendous defense against _Amaterasu_, especially at a distance. 

The Sannin having pooled knowledge helps them tremendously as well, giving them around nigh full surface knowledge of Itachi's abilities. Orochimaru has witnessed _Susanoo's_ capabilities both first hand, and through the looking glass during his stay inside Kabuto. I'd imagine he's probably already done extensive research on Itachi and the Mangekyou Sharingan. Jiraiya's familiar with _Amaterasu_ and was most likely relayed information about _Tsukuyomi_ from Kakashi. Jiraiya and Orochimaru have each other for the partner method to combat genjutsu. Orochimaru can avoid eye-contact and sense with his snakes. Jiraiya has _Kekkai: Tengai Houjin_. In _Sennin Modo_, Jiraiya has two partners to free him from genjutsu on his shoulders who are also versed in genjutsu. 

I think Jiraiya can block _Amaterasu_ from a distance using his hair and then seal it, especially with Orochimaru to provide cover. _Susanoo_ should be their biggest hurdle. I think Orochimaru can occupy him long enough (especially with _Yamata no Jutsu_) for Jiraiya to create some distance with his _shunshin_ _no_ _jutsu_ (though, the first two scans are probably just his frog leap) and get him with _Magen: Gamarinshou_, a jutsu he cannot counter. The multiple floors in the building will help with this. Scaling between _Sennin_ Naruto and MS Sasuke put Jiraiya and Itachi not far from each other, albeit with a slight nod to Itachi. Scaling also puts Orochimaru, at least with his arms sealed, around Hebi Sasuke which is sizable from Itachi, but not worlds apart, in my opinion. I don't see a lot of roads to victory for Itachi. I'd certainly give the Sannin the majority of victories here.


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## αce (May 21, 2013)

> We have already seen Jiraiya lose to the leader alone so Itachi's  already false in saying "Even if the number of people were to increase,  this probably wouldn't change" is already false. Are you going to say  that Jiraiya is stronger then the entire Akatsuki organization? If not  then couldn't Itachi also be false in saying Jiraiya's stronger?



He was lying to avoid a fight. They won't concede to that point.


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## titantron91 (May 21, 2013)

Baroxio and Kai won it for the team. Enough with the trolling pls.


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## Trojan (May 21, 2013)

Bonly said:


> This is something I don't understand. How can you use what Itachi said to say that no matter what happens, Itachi will always be weaker then Jiraiya when Itachi also said(from your post) .
> 
> We have already seen Jiraiya lose to the leader alone so Itachi's already false in saying "Even if the number of people were to increase, this probably wouldn't change" is already false. Are you going to say that Jiraiya is stronger then the entire Akatsuki organization? If not then couldn't Itachi also be false in saying Jiraiya's stronger?



1- That's part has proven wrong that's right, but it doesn't mean the whole thing is wrong!
2- Itachi DID run away from ONE jutsu from BASE Jman. So, that did not change.
3- pain who IS stronger than Itachi is also stated he wouldn't win if Jman knew about his secret. 
4- We already saw Itachi Vs SM user and he was completely crap. 

Itachi acknowledgement has NEVER proving wrong. actually it's been proven right. 
look when Naruto has SM he was stronger than MS Sasuke, yes you can argue that
SM Nartuo is perfect unlike Jman's, but we now Sasuke's SHARINGAN was stated to be
stronger than Itach's twice, 

we saw AGAIN SM user against BOTH MS & EMS, and see what happened to Itachi. 
to the THIRD time we saw SM user (Hashi) against EMS (Madara)

IT ALWAYS is the SM user > MS user. 
and Jman is NO exception he ALSO has a CLEAR statement that he's stronger. 
So why should I underestimate him to put him below Itachi while he's stronger than him? 
Why should I take a way something from him while the manga gave it to him!


Do you see Itachi's fans, see "oh, well, Itachi failed too much he can't be as smart as they say"
do you see them take away the statements about him being stronger than Oro? No
they don't do it. 

Jman > Itachi IS A FACT. I don't see why some people can't handle this until now it's kinda pathetic honestly. But, well, I understand this whole "My favorite character must me the strongest" play a huge part of judgement.

Farewell.


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## Dr. White (May 21, 2013)

Winchester Gospel said:


> > Itachi doesn't have a lot of information on Jiraiya, whereas Orochimaru has full knowledge on Itachi, including Izanami from the re-absorption of his own chakra from Kabuto.
> 
> 
> -Itachi knows Jiraiya is a Sanin,and knows for sure about his summons. I can't say for sure, but we also know that Itachi was in Anbu which receives highly classified information on everyone, and was mentioned to spend his time learning about the ancestor's of the past. He displayed wariness over Jiraiya, and deemed him a threat. He most likely knows about Sage Mode, it isn't exactly a secret as Shikaku knew about it, and told shikamaru casually in conversation, implying it was known for it's immense strength, if nothing else it's implied in his Moniker.
> ...


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## αce (May 22, 2013)

Pain admitting that he may have lost to Jiraiya was in no way an indication that Pain was weaker than Jiraiya - simply him pointing out that if Jiraiya knew Nagato existed he may have been able to avoid a direct confrontation and simply assassinate a Nagato who was highly disabled.

Pain wasn't just stronger than Jiraiya. He completely outclassed him. 






Also, comparing Kabuto's Sage Mode to Jiraiya Sage Mode is already faulty. Even Naruto's was better than Jiraiya's yet was still reduced to nothing in front of a single Pain path. Kabuto's Sage Mode is far more advanced than Jiraiya's version which he can't even complete without extra help.

The point about Itachi running from Jiraiya remains as invalid as pointing out that he thought that increasing Akatsuki's numbers would still result in a loss. He explicitly stated that he did not want to fight and knowing his motivations now, there was no point in fatally wounding Jiraya. I'm flabbergasted that people actually believe that Itachi would fight Jiraiya, knowing his allegiances, despite the fact that he could have simply ran and let him be. Him running wasn't a show of inferiority unless you selectively read what you please and ignore all the other factors behind that said decision. 

From a battledome perspective, if Itachi had wanted too, he could have simply looked Jiraiya in the face and ignited him with an amaterasu. He would have never seen it coming.


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## Bonly (May 22, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 1- That's part has proven wrong that's right, but it doesn't mean the whole thing is wrong!



How can you tell which part is still true then if you base it on Itachi's statement when his statement was proven wrong?



> 2- Itachi DID run away from ONE jutsu from BASE Jman. So, that did not change.



Itachi didn't want to fight. If Itachi used amaterasu on Jiraiya then Jiraiya would've likely died.



> 3- pain who IS stronger than Itachi is also stated he wouldn't win if Jman knew about his secret.



Doesn't change the fact that Jiraiya was killed by pain.



> 4- We already saw Itachi Vs SM user and he was completely crap.



He was not "completely crap". Try not to let your biased feeling towards a character out. 



> Itachi acknowledgement has NEVER proving wrong. actually it's been proven right.
> look when Naruto has SM he was stronger than MS Sasuke, yes you can argue that
> SM Nartuo is perfect unlike Jman's, but we now Sasuke's SHARINGAN was stated to be
> stronger than Itach's twice,



This doesn't SM> MS. Naruto himself said that SM wasn't enough to beat MS Sasuke.  



> we saw AGAIN SM user against BOTH MS & EMS, and see what happened to Itachi.



This isn't even a fair way to use as a basis here. Kabuto's skill set is different from Jiraiya's and Naruto's skill set. You can't use what happened against Kabuto and imply that said reason would be the same across all SM users. This isn't even taking in account how both sides was holding back as well.



> to the THIRD time we saw SM user (Hashi) against EMS (Madara)



SM and (E)MS are just tools wielded by a person. If you was to give konohamaru SM would you say konohamaru> Madara,Sasuke and Itachi just because he has SM? No because thats just down right flawed logic.



> IT ALWAYS is the SM user > MS user.



This is actually proven false by what Naruto said.



> and Jman is NO exception he ALSO has a CLEAR statement that he's stronger.
> So why should I underestimate him to put him below Itachi while he's stronger than him?
> Why should I take a way something from him while the manga gave to him!



Itachi has a statement that he is completely invincible which would mean that Jiraiya can't be stronger then him. But are you going to take Zetsu's word as fact and say no one can beat Itachi?



> Do you see Itachi's fans, see "oh, well, Itachi failed too much he can't be as smart as they say"
> do you see them take away the statements about him being stronger than Oro? No
> they don't do it.



And as of now you're just showing how butthurt you are by the Itachi fanbase and letting that affect your judgement. 



> Jman > Itachi IS A FACT. I don't see why some people can't handle this until now it's kinda pathetic honestly. But, well, I understand this whole "My favorite character must me the strongest" play a huge part of judgement.



The sad part is that your completely biased while you think that your not.


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## Winchester Gospel (May 22, 2013)

Dr. White, at the end of my post, I'm not claiming that Jiraiya can blitz Itachi, and I'm also not claiming that he can break genjutsu easily, or Tsukuyomi at all. I'm arguing that genjutsu and Tsukuyomi require eye-contact which becomes impossible to achieve under the effects of fūton sunabokori (Fukasaku and Shima's wind element dust cloud). This jutsu also hampers finger and crow genjutsu, and severely reduces the effectiveness of Amaterasu and Susano'o by limiting Itachi's line-of-sight.

My point is not to suggest that this technique is a trump card from Jiraiya, or that Itachi is completely helpless with his vision hindered, as he's still one of the most intuitively apt shinobi in the manga: Amaterasu can still be used to create offensive plumes or defensive flame-walls ? la Sasuke vs. Kabuto, and it's not as if Susano'o is outright restricted from using the Sword of Totsuka or Yasaka's Magatama; on the contrary, they're both still rather dangerous.

I'm just saying that they aren't necessarily instant death the way they would usually be so long as each character in the match plays his or her cards right; I'm saying that there's more than one way to approach this battle. It doesn't have to be "Jiraiya and Orochimaru helplessly circle an unbreakable armor with their inferior speed while one-by-one they get picked off via unavoidable techniques". Not when there are so many variables in jutsu and mindset to consider.

I also didn't claim that Itachi couldn't assault the Sannin's cover whilst they prepared their true strength. On the contrary, I simply believe that he couldn't do it easily; he would have to exhaust himself with extended use of the Mangekyō Sharingan, and even then, I don't think he could accomplish smoking them out before Jiraiya could reach Sage Mode. The house is placed in this setting as an equalizer, to give the Sannin an opportunity to delay the immediate threat and disadvantage of open warfare against a visual technique user. If it could be easily removed so as to not play this role, it wouldn't have been introduced into the scenario in the first place.

The majority of your post entails that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are unable to stop an immediate assault from Amaterasu or Susano'o; in other words, they never make it to shelter because Itachi's most advanced techniques are simply too quick. I don't believe this is what would happen in the manga: not precluding the simple notion that the author wouldn't allow a greater party of similarly capable characters to be so effortlessly destroyed, we've seen how Jiraiya reacts when faced with the possibility of combating an elite dōjutsu user (Pain), and we've also seen how Kabuto, with all of Orochimaru's knowledge, chooses to defend from the Uchiha. And we've also seen how Itachi opens his battles against multiple Kage-level opponents.

Given the above case studies, and the fact that I believe that the Sannin's knowledge base on Itachi is quite a bit more complete than what he's got on them, I'm left weighing the percentage chance of each option Itachi will consider, in addition to the time it will take for him to consider them, against what I believe will be definite precautionary steps against the Mangekyō Sharingan from Orochimaru and Jiraiya. There are scenarios where Itachi trades enough firepower in the opening exchange that he could maintain the upper hand for the remainder of the battle, but I don't tend to favor them. If, however, you simply believe that the Sannin are just plain incapable of performing a shunshin or a blocking move before Itachi can kill one or both of them, then there's not much else I can offer in the way of critique.


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## Ersa (May 22, 2013)

That being said this is Living Itachi and his poor stamina can be exploited by the Sannin duo. Honestly it depends if they can avoid his nukes early on, if he can land them then Itachi wins, if not then honestly the Sannin take it high difficulty. SM Jiraiya is more or less on par with Sick Itachi and adding Orochimaru who is stronger then most Kages should tip the scales for him comfortably.

Sannin, high difficulty, Itachi has a chance however. Edo Itachi would casually murderstomp the two of them.


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## FlamingRain (May 22, 2013)

I'm not sure how much knowledge Itachi has on Jiraiya, though he should have quite a bit on Orochimaru.

If he knows about _Sennin Modo_ he won't be using he _Mangekyo_ as conservatively as he usually does, because he won't want to deal with an exceptionally speedy fighter who can force him to maintain _Susano'o_ by continually blasting him with long range moves while using Bunshin to keep himself more out of harm's way.

Orochimaru just adds that much more onto the pressure since he can't be killed by anything short of _Totsuka_.

With pooled knowledge, if Jiraiya is smart (which he is  ) he'll be using _Kage Bunshin_ (which we see aren't affected by genjutsu thanks to the Kakashi and Naruto vs Itachi fight) throughout pretty much the entirety of the battle. Against someone as reliant upon their eyes as Itachi, smoke bombs for LoS blocking and Kage Bunshin are something he'll be making heavy use of if he wants to do anything to Itachi. Using a Senjutsu empowered _Yomi Numa_ while Itachi is blinded by smoke against multiple opponents could lead to a nasty end for Itachi, especially if Jiraiya were to follow up with _Yatai Kuzushi_. Either that or he retreats into the building and preps _Gamarinsho_, which probably wouldn't take as long as it did against Pein since Ma and Pa would have the synchronization more fresh in their minds.

I think Orochimaru's presence just guarantees the Sannin's victory.


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Don't kill me fellow Itachi lovers.


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## Shattering (May 24, 2013)

I have read enought official translations in different languages to know that Itachi/Kisame were talking about Kurama or Naruto at first and not Jiraiya, but you haters can keep believing your fan translations about it.

Itachi wins mid/high difficulty if he goes easy on them, if he goes all out from the beginning they are defeated effortlessly.


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## Bonly Jr. (May 24, 2013)

It's like people forget Itachi was working for Konoha all along..

You think the guy who was arguably one of the biggest Konoha lovers would want to engage in battle against a respected, leaf legend? The Sanin Jiraiya? Use some damn common sense. Itachi could Amaterasu'd J-man in that frog stomach, he never.


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## Trojan (May 24, 2013)

> =Bonly;47289725]How can you tell which part is still true then if you base it on Itachi's statement when his statement was proven wrong?


Because Pains proved that he's > Jman, but Itachi did not? 


> Itachi didn't want to fight. If Itachi used amaterasu on Jiraiya then Jiraiya would've likely died.



- Who said that? 
- Sadly "IF" can't change reality. You can say IF the whole day and nothing will change. 


> Doesn't change the fact that Jiraiya was killed by pain.


 Exactly, as it does not change the fact that Itachi admit inferior to Jman. 
you see? Neither Pain's "IF" did change that, nor your "If" will change anything either. 


> He was not "completely crap". Try not to let your biased feeling towards a character out.


Oh please. 
_the ones standing with Tsunade_
he got defeated from the FIRST SM jutsu that Kabuto used. 


> This doesn't SM> MS. Naruto himself said that SM wasn't enough to beat MS Sasuke.



Except Naruto did not say that. 


> This isn't even a fair way to use as a basis here. Kabuto's skill set is different from Jiraiya's and Naruto's skill set. You can't use what happened against Kabuto and imply that said reason would be the same across all SM users. This isn't even taking in account how both sides was holding back as well.


Jman has what he needs, he has his swamp to attack from the ground so the Susanoo 
can't do much as we saw against Madara, he has his Sensing barrier to sense every single move, the frogs have sounds ability to bypass the Susanoo! ...etc 


> SM and (E)MS are just tools wielded by a person. If you was to give konohamaru SM would you say konohamaru> Madara,Sasuke and Itachi just because he has SM? No because thats just down right flawed logic.


 You still say "IF" we know that jman is the stronger one, so of course his SM will make him
even stronger! 


> This is actually proven false by what Naruto said.


Except he did not say that!

Even takl said so




> Itachi has a statement that he is completely invincible which would mean that Jiraiya can't be stronger then him. But are you going to take Zetsu's word as fact and say no one can beat Itachi?



No, that's just make Jman look even stronger because we know he's stronger!
and his susanoo can't protect him against the sounds jutsus (Frog Song, Frog call) or
that swamp, I thought everyone knows that by now. 


> And as of now you're just showing how butthurt you are by the Itachi fanbase and letting that affect your judgement.



LOL 
buthurrt because of what? 
if there are some people who are butthurt they are you and his fans, you live in denial 
just because of "lol my favorite" at least I don't say Kishi is wrong and my opinion is right
Minato for example is my 2nd favorite do you see me go around and say Kishi know nothing
and Minato actually the strongest Hokage and stronger than Hiruzen?

I know it hurts when you admit that, it hurts me when I admit that Hiruzen > Minato as well. 
but it seems you are afraid of feeling that pain, so you decided to ignore the truth. :rofl


> The sad part is that your completely biased while you think that your not.



oh yeah, Kishi who has very strong passion to Itachi was biased against him and made Jman
stronger than him. 

Kishi's passion to Itachi is even greater than Madara's passion to Hashi! and you think
Kishi will say that because he's biased against Itachi!! LOL 

or perhpas you know more than Kishi in his manga? Please let us know! If you were the
TRUE writer I'm actually interested to ask a lot of questions about what will happen next!

at the end who's Kishi? some random guy who know nothing about this manga, right? 
I think if the members do not know something they should take your opinion instead of Kishi's


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## Trojan (May 24, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> It's like people forget Itachi was working for Konoha all along..
> 
> You think the guy who was arguably one of the biggest Konoha lovers would want to engage in battle against a respected, leaf legend? The Sanin Jiraiya? Use some damn common sense. Itachi could Amaterasu'd J-man in that frog stomach, he never.



he did not have a problem of trying to kill Kurnai, or Kakshi nor he had it when he stood
in their face so the Akatuke can take the 1tails.


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## Kai (May 24, 2013)

TorJan, Itachi took hits to protect Sasuke because he did not trust in Sasuke's strength. I thought that was made clear.


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## Trojan (May 24, 2013)

Kai said:


> TorJan, Itachi took hits to protect Sasuke because he did not trust in Sasuke's strength. I thought that was made clear.



I did not understand what do you mean by that. @.@
and I know he did not trust Susake's power, what does that have to do with anything?


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## Bonly Jr. (May 24, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> he did not have a problem of trying to kill Kurnai, or Kakshi nor he had it when he stood
> in their face so the Akatuke can take the 1tails.



He barely touched Kurenai, she got saved and all Itachi did was counter her Genjutsu and kick her in the face.

He also spared Kakashi completely invincible


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## Bonly (May 24, 2013)

joshhookway 2.0 said:


> Because Pains proved that he's > Jman, but Itachi did not?



except it has been shown that Itachi>=Jiraiya with Itachi being the more favored one. 



> - Who said that?



The fact that Kisame questioned why did he need to retreat, the fact that we know Itachi was a good guy, and the fact that itachi made no attempt to fight back says it all.



> - Sadly "IF" can't change reality. You can say IF the whole day and nothing will change.
> 
> Exactly, as it does not change the fact that Itachi admit inferior to Jman.
> you see? Neither Pain's "IF" did change that, nor your "If" will change anything either.



Who said it can? What happened has happened but with what we know now as oppose to back then we know, its pretty clear that Itachi could've beat Jiraiya.




> Oh please.
> completely invincible
> he got defeated from the FIRST SM jutsu that Kabuto used.



So you're using Itachi getting hit after he saved sasuke and made it clear that he was taking advantage of his undying body to show he was 'completely crap'? Your hate for Itachi is to much here so im done with this point.



> Except Naruto did not say that.



Except he did. 



> Jman has what he needs, he has his swamp to attack from the ground so the Susanoo
> can't do much as we saw against Madara, he has his Sensing barrier to sense every single move, the frogs have sounds ability to bypass the Susanoo! ...etc



You act like Itachi doesn't have what it takes to take down Jiraiya.



> You still say "IF" we know that jman is the stronger one, so of course his SM will make him
> even stronger!



Already touched on this above. 



> Except he did not say that!
> 
> Even takl said so



I already showed a scan of it saying he does, you can chose which ever one you like. Don't know who Takl is nor do I care.




> No, that's just make Jman look even stronger because we know he's stronger!
> and his susanoo can't protect him against the sounds jutsus (Frog Song, Frog call) or
> that swamp, I thought everyone knows that by now.



Showing nothing but being biased here.



> LOL
> buthurrt because of what?



The fact that you brought up what some Itachi fans have said and brought it up as if it matters for what we are talking about and how you haven shown to have a problem with it shows how you are butthurt.



> if there are some people who are butthurt they are you and his fans, you live in denial
> just because of "lol my favorite" at least I don't say Kishi is wrong and my opinion is write



Who said he was wrong? Are you saying that everything said in this manga is suppose to be taken as always right?


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## Kai (May 24, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> I did not understand what do you mean by that. @.@
> and I know he did not trust Susake's power, what does that have to do with anything?


That reflected how he acted during battle. He risked getting 'killed' because he did not trust Sasuke's strength.


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## Bkprince33 (May 25, 2013)

Lol Gotta love that Torjan logic, don't bother this, guy thinks the third hokage is stronger then hashi, it's like he has trouble transitioning with the manga, and worships pre time skip statements as canon.


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## crisler (May 25, 2013)

taking itachis' words literally. oh right, since itachi said numbers won't change why don't you argue that the whole akatsuki and madara and hashirama added would lose to jiraiya? go on, try. 

and obviously kisame spoke of jiraiya. it's just hyperbole.


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## Shattering (May 25, 2013)

He didn't even hurt Kurenai, and spared Kakashi's life, but there's a big difference,if he do the same with Jiraiya, one-panel him or whatever, there would be no excuse to not capture Naruto right there, Kisame is not an idiot.

He also was "exhausted" after using one tsukiyomi and amaterasu for a split of second, when this guy at the verge of death used way more against Sasuke.

He was Konoha's spy in Akatsuki, defeating Jiraiya and capturing Naruto would have been pretty stupid from him.

We have seen Itachi going for the kill 2 times in the whole manga, Orochimaru lasted a panel when Itachi was almost dead, and Nagato was one-shoted 3 times in 2 chapters, luckily for him he was and Edo Tensei.

And then we have his battle against Kabuto, that monster was defeated and Itachi didn't have to attack him once, that's how good he is


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## FlamingRain (May 25, 2013)

@ crisler,

Not all of Akatsuki's members are the elite pairs we've seen hunting Bijuus.

They have lesser members: Kabuto being one of Sasori's spies, the two shinobi used to manifest Shoten Itachi and Kisame, the two shinobi Jiraiya attempted to interrogate before facing Pein and Konan, etc.

I doubt one elite pair can just ask another pair to stop what they're doing and come over just like that. The "backup" Itachi spoke of seems more likely to have been the fodder jonin that don't know how to do anything but run at their enemies and die.

In that case, numbers _wouldn't_ change anything. Not when facing someone whose jutsu create mini-lakes while drugged and scorch entire battlefields with oil and fire combos.


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## Shattering (May 25, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> @ crisler,
> 
> Not all of Akatsuki's members are the elite pairs we've seen hunting Bijuus.
> 
> ...



The denial is strong on this one


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## FlamingRain (May 25, 2013)

Nowhere in that post did I actually say Jiraiya >>> Itachi, now did I?

I was just pointing out that the claim isn't necessarily as absurd as it's made out to be.

Plus he asked someone to try and argue it.  I'm taking TorJaN's spot.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 8, 2013)

Jiraiya and Orochimaru are dead meat if they try to take Itachi head-on.

They're better off retreating to the building and preparing Magen: Gamarinshou.

That'll give away their location, though.

So it comes down to whether or not Itachi can find them and get to them before the Genjutsu takes effect.

And I guess there's always the question of how effective Gamarinshou would be anyway, but if Mugen Onsa was able to subdue Itachi, I think Gamarinshou should be able to.

Although, I wonder if Itachi could block off his hearing to prevent the Genjutsu, like how people can close their eyes to block visual Genjutsu? Seems like it should work, but I don't know if simply putting his hands over his ears would be enough.

Nagato didn't even bother to try; whether that was because he knew it wouldn't work or because he was arrogant and thought he could handle the Genjutsu isn't clear, but I'll give the two Sannin the benefit of the doubt here.


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