# Marco Pirates vs Aokiji and Fujitora



## Zorofangirl24 (Jun 20, 2013)

This is Whitebeard's crew with no Whitebeard, being led by Marco the new captain.
Who wins?


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## RF (Jun 20, 2013)

Marco > Fujitora (based on speculation)

The rest > Aokiji


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## Imagine (Jun 20, 2013)

Fuji has next to no feats. And the one he showed wasn't exactly a high end one.


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## Language of Life (Jun 20, 2013)

Fujitora?? 

Your jumping the gun Haru; we barley have a single feat for this guy.


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## Mys??lf (Jun 20, 2013)

Marco + One-Armed Jozu + Vista + rest of the WB commanders + regular fodders > 2 admirals


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## B Rabbit (Jun 20, 2013)

What kinda of speculation puts Marco > Fujitora?


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## Mihawk (Jun 20, 2013)

^What kind of speculation puts Fujitora>Marco? 

Marco was the first mate of WB.

Now of course, Fujitora is an Admiral, but apparently, the Marines had to compensate for the loss of Aokiji with unprecedented power.

The Pre TS Admirals were in a league of their own as Marines. 

There is a good chance that Fujitora is weaker than them, and though Marco is also weaker than the Pre TS Admirals, I don't know if Fujitora holding the rank of being a new Admiral alone would put him above Marco, the former right hand of the World's Strongest Man. 

Now, I might be proven wrong, as Fujitora could very well be stronger than Marco, but we need to wait and see more from him.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 20, 2013)

I'm actually on the theory Fujitora was Vice Admiral in the new world, and was already powerful enough to be an Admiral. 

I believe there are basis in the New World guarded by a powerful VA, and that would explain why Vergo and Fujitoa weren't at the war.


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## RF (Jun 20, 2013)

Eminem said:


> What kinda of speculation puts Marco > Fujitora?



The fact that Marco has been hyped up to ridiculous levels, tangoed with all the original admirals in the war, is the first mate of the strongest man in the world, has been on the seas for 20+ years, and has been mentioned in the same ballpark as the emperors.

All of this portrayal, including his feats put him on the same level as the admirals, and nigh equal to Kizaru.

I see no reason to pin Fujitora _that_ high simply because of his rank.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 20, 2013)

Meh Marco's overrated, but I really can't argue with those facts.


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## Mys??lf (Jun 20, 2013)

the preskip-admiral wank is so disgusting


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## Extravlad (Jun 20, 2013)

> tangoed with all the original admirals in the wa


Marco fought Akainu helped by Vista,Crocodile,Andre and all of the commanders.

If he was really on par with the pre skip admirals he would stomps Akainu easily with this massive helps.

WB pirates wins mid diff, Fujitora is not a logia he get stalemates by Jozu and destroyed by the others commanders and fodders then they help Marco and Vista against Kuzan.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 20, 2013)

Meh people like their Admirals.


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## Freechoice (Jun 20, 2013)

I voted the stupid answer.


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## Mihawk (Jun 20, 2013)

Mys??lf said:


> the preskip-admiral wank is so disgusting



Not as disgusting as the rookie wank though. Not anywhere near.


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## Bitty (Jun 20, 2013)

Luke you're like literally the only one I see complain about rookie wank lol
Law is the only rookie I see wanked consistently & noticeably, & that's mainly cause he has an extremely hax DF.
Of course you have your zolo tards, but they've always been around. & once every blue moon we have a noob or two that claim luffy is admiral level or can solo a yonkou soon but no one takes them seriously or majority of the section disagrees with them, so I don't see what the big deal is.

These are literally the only ones, we haven't even seen enough from the rest of the rookies to wank them.


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## trance (Jun 20, 2013)

Kuzan is the strongest here but he can't fodderize Marco or Jozu and while Fujitora may be on the same level as the three pre-TS Admirals, we have nearly no feats to go on. This matchup is pointless til we get feats for Fujitora.


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## Mihawk (Jun 20, 2013)

8Bit said:


> Luke you're like literally the only one I see complain about rookie wank lol
> Law is the only rookie I see wanked consistently & noticeably, & that's mainly cause he has an extremely hax DF.
> Of course you have your zolo tards, but they've always been around. & once every blue moon we have a noob or two that claim luffy is admiral level or can solo a yonkou soon but no one takes them seriously or majority of the section disagrees with them, so I don't see what the big deal is.
> 
> These are literally the only ones, we haven't even seen enough from the rest of the rookies to wank them.



There are more Luffy wankers than you are making it out to be. Definitely not once in a blue moon.


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## barreltheif (Jun 20, 2013)

Unless Fujitora is far below the other admirals, he and Aokiji take this mid diff.

Aokiji~Akainu>Marco+Vista+lower commanders
Fujitora>>>1 arm Jozu


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## Lord Melkor (Jun 20, 2013)

Marco can hold off Aokiji while Fujitora is ganged on by Vista, one-armed Jozu who still should have most of his strenght intact, a dozen of weaker commanders and hundreds of weaker WB pirates who likely included some strong people as well. Marco pirates should take it against any two Admirals, though three may be too much.


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## barreltheif (Jun 21, 2013)

Lord Melkor said:


> Marco can hold off Aokiji while Fujitora is ganged on by Vista, one-armed Jozu who still should have most of his strenght intact, a dozen of weaker commanders and hundreds of weaker WB pirates who likely included some strong people as well. Marco pirates should take it against any two Admirals, though three may be too much.



Marco will lose to Aokiji long before Vista+one-armed Jozu can beat an admiral (if they can at all, which I doubt). Marco's regen is useless if he gets frozen. He'll fare no better than Jozu did.


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## convict (Jun 21, 2013)

The admirals get slaughtered.


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## SunRise (Jun 21, 2013)

WB Pirates are most oversteamated characters in OP.


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## Tiger (Jun 21, 2013)

Lord Melkor said:


> *Marco can hold off Aokiji* while Fujitora is ganged on by Vista, one-armed Jozu who still should have most of his strenght intact, a dozen of weaker commanders and hundreds of weaker WB pirates who likely included some strong people as well. Marco pirates should take it against any two Admirals, though three may be too much.



Bolded is a stretch.

Could Marco hold off Akainu? Because for all intents and purposes, Oda went to as extreme a length as absolutely possible to show everyone that they're equal.

The only factors in this match are Marco, Jozu, and Vista vs 2 Admirals, one of which is near enough to Akainu to make the difference negligible, and the other has literally zero workable feats.

Anyone in here saying "Admirals get wrecked" or some other garbage like that are just taking up space on this forum.

No _one crew_ without Whitebeard, Shanks, Kaido, and MAYBE Big Mom and Blackbeard is beating two established Admirals at once.

What is this Admiral underestimation all of a sudden? I can understand it not being a foregone conclusion that Fujitora is on par with Kuzan/Borsalino before he shows anything worthwhile...but we're talking about one easily Yonko-level fighter, and one unknown, versus a Yonko's first-mate, a second-best swordsman (maybe, but probably not), and a one-armed Jozu, plus some fighters that can, at best, add a distraction. There is NOTHING to suggest Marco stands up to Marineford Whitebeard's power, and without the element of surprise, not to mention the World's Strongest Man a few meters away, Aokiji annihilates Jozu ten times out of ten. Not close.

If Marco's crew could defeat two Admirals _by themselves,_ the World Government wouldn't still exist. Heads out of asses, on the double. Now, if Fujitora shows himself to be barely passable as "higher than VAs", then this thread has a case. If he proves himself to being at least on Borsalino's level...this thread is fucked, and not in the good way.


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## Enel (Jun 21, 2013)

Aokiji can probably take care of all the fodder with one attack, which leaves the commanders at Marco's side.
Marco and Jozu should be able to take care of Aokiji, since Jozu alone was able to stall him.
We don't know yet about the strength of Fujitora, but I don't think he can take on Vista and the other commanders.
I'd say the pirate-crew wins mid/high diff.


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## ShadowReaper (Jun 21, 2013)

It's all about hype. Gorosei told that Marco's crew was strong enough to take on Teach, but at the same time we have no idea about Fujitora's strength.


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## Urouge (Jun 21, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> The fact that Marco has been hyped up to ridiculous levels, tangoed with all the original admirals in the war, is the first mate of the strongest man in the world, has been on the seas for 20+ years, and has been mentioned in the same ballpark as the emperors.
> 
> All of this portrayal, including his feats put him on the same level as the admirals, and nigh equal to Kizaru.
> 
> I see no reason to pin Fujitora _that_ high simply because of his rank.



Marco is not nigh equal to kizaru. Kizaru would win 10/10 times in a fight. Fujitora having the admiral title makes me think that he's also stronger than marco. Marco is not pushover but he's not beating an admiral. If he really was on par with them teach wouldn't have become a younkou. Marco has great defense but is seriously lacking in offense. He couldn't even hurt akainu with the help of vista.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jun 21, 2013)

Honestly, trolling and bias aside but I think Aokiji could handle them on his own.

Akainu was staring down most of the Whitebeard trash on his own and Marco & Vista, two of the strongest members couldn't even scratch him, despite being pretty much bloodlusted at that point.

Add in Fujitora who's obviously stronger than Marco and it'll be overkill. 

Admirals take this low diff.



Imagine said:


> Fuji has next to no feats. And the one he showed wasn't exactly a high end one.



Yes because he should have performed a high end one by destroying the entire restaurant and killing all those innocent civilians in there.



Mys??lf said:


> the preskip-admiral wank is so disgusting



Your face is disgusting.



convict said:


> The admirals get slaughtered.



Disgusting how the Admirals are treated on here.  



VioletHood said:


> WB Pirates are most oversteamated characters in OP.



Welcome to the OL.


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## RF (Jun 21, 2013)

That post is actually completely full of bias, Kizaru. 

Marco is _terribly_ underestimated here.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jun 21, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> That post is actually completely full of bias, Kizaru.
> 
> Marco is _terribly_ underestimated here.



That's a separate issue (even though I disagree with that statement). The question should be whether Marco, Jozu and Vista have the combined firepower (because let's face it the others are pretty much trash and would get owned swiftly) to take down one admiral? And I don't think they do. 

I'm sure Aokiji would be having nightmares about Marco's kicks, Jozu's tackles or Vista's flowers. 

All Aokiji needs to do is engineer one small opening and it'd be lights out for any one of them (see the war). Given his speed I don't think that'll be too hard either.

Aokiji takes this on his own, high difficulty. Add in Fujitora and it'll be over very quickly.


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## blueframe01 (Jun 21, 2013)

No admiral would beat Marco with anything less than Hard difficulty, and even then it'll take forever to be decided. If he takes on Aokiji, he'll be able to stall him long enough for the other Admiral to be defeated by the rest of the pirates. which brings me to Fujitora vs the rest. Does one honestly think he'll be able to survive against Jozu, Vista and everyone else? especially when he isn't capable of becoming intangible to evade attacks (like how Aokiji & Akainu escaped being injured in the war). We've seen how one VA level fighter could potentially make a huge difference in a battle among 2 top tiers when Onigumo took Marco by surprise.  Fujitora would have to deal with plenty of VA level fighters while trying to fight Vista & Jozu, whom even individually could give him a test. Heck we haven't even considered the real possibility that he might not even be the same level as the other admirals.


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## Enel (Jun 21, 2013)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Add in Fujitora who's obviously stronger than Marco and it'll be overkill.


He has no real feats and we saw that Marco is at the very least close to admiral level and you say he is obviously stronger? 



Admiral Kizaru said:


> I'm sure Aokiji would be having nightmares about Marco's kicks, Jozu's tackles or Vista's flowers.


One attack from Jozu was enough to make Aokiji bleed out of his mouth. I guess you could get nightmares from something which causes internal bleeding.


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## RF (Jun 21, 2013)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> That's a separate issue (even though I disagree). The question should be whether Marco, Jozu and Vista have the combined firepower (because let's face it the others are pretty much trash and would get owned swiftly) to take down one admiral?
> 
> *And I'm sure Aokiji will be having nightmares about Marco's kicks, Jozu's tackles or Vista's flowers. *
> 
> ...



You don't honestly believe this, do you ? 

Marco didn't come close to going all-out, and he broke through Kizaru's block and kicked him to the ground. If Aokiji gets a serious kick from Marco to the face, he's not remaining unscratched. Same goes for Jozu's punches, and _especially_ Vista's slashes. And let's not forget about Marco's talons, which cut through Akainu's neck like butter. 

Again, none of these individuals can beat an admiral (Marco can push one to his limits, though), but just to remind you, there are _16_ people fighting here, and 3 of them have on-panel feats of stalemating admiral level opponents. 


> There are no feats that suggest the commanders can't keep up with Aokiji. In fact, Marco showed speed similar to Aokiji's by blitzing Hancock and intercepting Kizaru's attack on Whitebeard.

> There is something awfully wrong if Aokiji who has to fight 16 people at once gets an opening before the commanders do.

> Oda had to give the admirals an opening by forcing the commanders to get distracted. He clearly emphasized the fact that the top commanders can give the admirals a tough fight.

> The other commanders are _not_ fodder when Aokiji has to fight 3 of Whitebeard's best men, as shown in the war. Each and every commander proved himself useful in stopping Akainu.

I won't bother with Fujitora because he's nigh featless, and we can't correctly gauge his strength.

But there's something seriously wrong if an admiral can solo a Yonko crew without the Yonko.


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## Mys??lf (Jun 21, 2013)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Akainu was staring down most of the Whitebeard trash on his own and Marco & Vista, two of the strongest members couldn't even scratch him, despite being pretty much bloodlusted at that point.
> 
> Add in Fujitora who's obviously stronger than Marco and it'll be overkill.
> 
> Admirals take this low diff.



Jozu  is in the matchup aswell , maybe you forgot about him.

yes Marco and Vista werent able to scratch Akainu , but how would you know if Akainu is able to
seriously injure Marco and stop him from regenerating either?

Marco can stall Aokiji while Jozu+Vista+ the rest of the WB commanders+regular WB pirates can go against Fujitora..

Fujitora is not a logia unlike the other admirals . that means that he has to defend himself
against every attack and cant just tank them like logias do. against the amount of enemies,
I doubt that he cant defend himself against every single attack AND still win against Jozu and Vista.
they could beat Fuji faster than Marco gets completely tired/stops regenerating.

After that , they could join Marco and help him beat Aokiji


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jun 21, 2013)

blueframe01 said:


> No admiral would beat Marco with anything less than Hard difficulty, and even then it'll take forever to be decided. If he takes on Aokiji, he'll be able to stall him long enough for the other Admiral to be defeated by the rest of the pirates. which brings me to Fujitora vs the rest. Does one honestly think he'll be able to survive against Jozu, Vista and everyone else? especially when he isn't capable of becoming intangible to evade attacks (like how Aokiji & Akainu escaped being injured in the war). We've seen how one VA level fighter could potentially make a huge difference in a battle among 2 top tiers when Onigumo took Marco by surprise.  Fujitora would have to deal with plenty of VA level fighters while trying to fight Vista & Jozu, whom even individually could give him a test. Heck we haven't even considered the real possibility that he might not even be the same level as the other admirals.



You're really overestimating Marco here. 

His DF whilst hax isn't an automatic condition that the fights will be difficult - he'll still fatigue heavily from having to constantly regenerate from damage he takes. And he would suffer a shit load of damage against a serious Admiral and be able to give barely anything back.

Besides Aokiji, who as Barreltheif has already pointed out, has an inherent advantage against it as it's pretty much impossible to regenerate if your frozen at a cellular level. 

We saw from how long Ace and Curiel were able to stall Akainu how the rest of the WB commanders stack up to an Admiral level fighter. 


Aokiji takes this on his own high difficulty.


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## RF (Jun 21, 2013)

Kizaru vs The World


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jun 21, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> If Aokiji gets a serious kick from Marco to the face, he's not remaining unscratched. Same goes for Jozu's punches, and _especially_ Vista's slashes. And let's not forget about Marco's talons, which cut through Akainu's neck like butter.


 
Yes but these are pathetic attacks when you're considering he's going up against a man who can survive 10 days against a fighter who's able to launch massive magma fists, magma jets and other assortment of deadly magma based attacks. Unless they get a good clean open hit in, which will be difficult as Aokiji will be expecting it unlike Jozu's attack on him, Aokiji won't even feel a thing.



Sakazuki said:


> Again, none of these individuals can beat an admiral (Marco can push one to his limits, though), but just to remind you, there are _16_ people fighting here, and 3 of them have on-panel feats of stalemating admiral level opponents.



Stalemating for barely a few minutes against an Admiral who had other priorities and more pressing concerns to deal with. 



Sakazuki said:


> > There are no feats that suggest the commanders can't keep up with Aokiji. In fact, Marco showed speed similar to Aokiji's by blitzing Hancock and intercepting Kizaru's attack on Whitebeard.



Well I may have underestimated Marco's speed a but but I still don't think that'll be much of an issue. All it'll take is one opening which I'm confident Aokiji will be able to generate sooner or later. 



Sakazuki said:


> > The other commanders are _not_ fodder when Aokiji has to fight 3 of Whitebeard's best men, as shown in the war. Each and every commander proved himself useful in stopping Akainu.



Two of those commanders were Jozu & Marco  (and the latter barely classifies as a fight) and the other Ace was only able to stall Aokiji because of the unique polarity of their DF's. 

Curiel got one shotted and Jirou was shitting his pants when Kizaru showed up. They rest of them are trash. 



Sakazuki said:


> But there's something seriously wrong if an admiral can solo a Yonko crew without the Yonko.



Oh I don't think it's the case with all the Yonko, I don't think they're all the same. The problem with the Whitebeard pirates is their strength relies too heavily on their captain. I'm sure the other Yonko crews will be better distributed.


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## LB04 (Jun 21, 2013)

I said it in the OL and I stick to it, Fujitora is the strongest person on Dressrosa we know about. Since Doflamingo is only a bit weaker than Marco that should mean that Fujitora is at least equal to Marco. 

So he can fight Marco while Aokiji handles the rest. 

An injured Akainu could fight Marco, Vista and the lower commanders. He was holding his own despite being injured. A healthy Aokiji is stronger than an injured Akainu so has better cards from the beginning. And his opponents are a one armed Jozu, Vista and the lower commanders. That's a weaker force than Akainu faced so Aokiji takes this with high-extrem diff. 

The fodder doesn't matter, look what Kuzan did to DD on PH, the fodder gets the same treatment and stays frozen. Some of the lower commanders might also get taken out by that move. 

Than he helps out Fujitora and they win. 

Or replace Marco with Jozu, Fujitora wins against Jozu with high-extrem diff and then helps out Aokiji. And seeing how Akainu despite being injured could fight them a healthy Aokiji might win that on his own with extrem diff.


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## RF (Jun 21, 2013)

> Yes but these are pathetic attacks when you're considering he's going up against a man who can survive 10 days against a fighter who's able to launch massive magma fists, magma jets and other assortment of deadly magma based attacks. Unless they get a good clean open hit in, which will be difficult as Aokiji will be expecting it unlike Jozu's attack on him, Aokiji won't even feel a thing.



While Sakazuki's attacks may pack more power, the sheer amount of attacks the commanders could land is going to wear Aokiji down at some point or another. 

We haven't even seen Marco or Jozu go all-out so calling their attacks pathetic is nothing but speculation.

Also, I highly doubt that getting your neck teared apart by talons or a sword slash qualifies as "pathetic".



> Stalemating for barely a few minutes against an Admiral who had other priorities and more pressing concerns to deal with.



Their priority was stopping Whitebeard in his tracks, and the commanders prevented them from doing so.

And their fight lasted more than 5 minutes.

Again, portrayal is what actually matters. If Oda decides to let Marco fight Kizaru for a few chapters with neither of them having a single bruise, then he is obviously trying to show us some equality between the two of them.



> Two of those commanders were Jozu & Marco  (and the latter barely classifies as a fight) and the other Ace was only able to stall Aokiji because of the unique polarity of their DF's.
> 
> Curiel got one shotted and Jirou was shitting his pants when Kizaru showed up. They rest of them are trash.



Marco and Jozu who can give an admiral a hard fight. And I wasn't referring to Ace, but Vista who stalemated Mihawk and earned his respect. 

And while the lower commanders may be fodder individually, I clearly said that they're NOT fodder when they fight in a group, especially with Marco, Jozu, and Vista.


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## Beckman (Jun 21, 2013)

Personally I think the WB crew is underrated.

The whole idea that they lack offensive power is quite ridiculous and illogical. They may lack huge AoE attacks but those kinds of attacks are rarely the deciding factor. Marco & Jozu fights with kicks and punches, much like Garp, EoS Luffy & Sanji and I've never seen anyone doubt their offensive abilities.

Their attacks didn't have much effect in the war, but what was people expecting? A one-shot? There haven't been a single fight in OP where a brawler have finished an opponent of similair or higher level in one or two attacks.

I don't think Marco would beat a pre-skip admiral but claiming that he can't give them a fight doesn't make sence. That would mean WB would be a complete idiot for letting his crew fight people they would have no chance surviving against. WB wasn't an idiot and he obviously though his crew would be able to get there, save Ace and get away. So he must have though his crew could hold their own against the marines. Which they wouldn't be able to if WB was the only one capable of fighting with the marines top dogs.

And I have no doubt the Marco-crew would win this. Probably without losing any main member.


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## Bitty (Jun 21, 2013)

just because Marco didn't damage Akainu doesn't make him fodder to an admiral. That's a testament to Akainu's endurance not a downplay on Marco. I guarantee Akainu wouldn't wanna get hit with multiple of those kicks. That just tells us Marco needs to go for a stronger attack or better technique when facing a stamina monster like Akainu. 

Pretty sure Marco & Vista did damage Akainu..it just didn't phase him.  Marco was able to send Admirals flying through physical strength alone. Yea the attacks did minimal to no damage, but it's not a 1vs1 all out fight...the kicks were meant to momentarily stop the admirals & that's what he did.  We haven't even everything Marco can do.
Sanji kicked Vergo & sent him flying, but Vergo wasn't phased.  I guess Sanji is fodder to Vergo.

When did the admirals do significant damage to him besides when he was caught off-guard? It works both ways. They were never put in situations where they could both all out fight each other.
Marco tanked Kizaru's Yasakani no Magatama near effortlessly twice, then broke though his guard & sent him flying(off physical strength alone)..Marco actually came out looking better in his exchanges with Kizaru...this is not the portrayal of someone who would get wreaked by an admiral. . Even seastoned-cuffed with his DF powers negated he took multiple laser beams in his back from Kizaru & still stood & kept fighting.  He took a punch from Garp off-guard & still got up barely phased.

the Gorousei considered him as one of the few pirates capable of taking down Teach & his crew. His strength & authority was compared to the yonkou. His name was stated separately among the WB pirates..just like if you asked the Gorousei who can take down the BB Pirates they're gonna say.
_Shanks_ & the Red Hairs
_Marco_ & WB Pirates.
etc...etc.


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## Urouge (Jun 21, 2013)

Benn Beckman said:


> Personally I think the WB crew is underrated.
> 
> The whole idea that they lack offensive power is quite ridiculous and illogical. They may lack huge AoE attacks but those kinds of attacks are rarely the deciding factor. Marco & Jozu fights with kicks and punches, much like Garp, EoS Luffy & Sanji and I've never seen anyone doubt their offensive abilities.
> 
> ...



I have no problem with this post. I just disagree with sakazuki for believing that kizaru and marco are equal or nigh equal. marco would give a high diff fight at best against an admiral. he should give an extreme diff fight against fujitora,

@8bit marco and vista attacks really didnt faze akainu and they were BL. the preskip admiral have the advantage in power, haki and defense. you need to have a haki that is stronger or close to the admirals own haki to harm because of their logia powers. we saw that a combined attack of marco and vista didnt faze akainu. their attack just annoyed him. you really believe that marco on his own has a chance against an admiral on his own.


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## Bitty (Jun 21, 2013)

Marco & Vista were torn part & emotional more than they were bloodlusted. Akainu's determination & bloodlust was greater than theirs, simple as that. Like I said Sanji kicked Vergo & sent him flying twice with DJ, but Vergo wasn't phased. Doesn't mean Sanji is weak compared to Vergo. They just have to hit harder.  Sanji couldn't even break past Jyabaru's defense, his attacks were futile, until he hit harder & pulled out a better technique. & Just because you're not phased doesn't mean your not damaged. You just have great endurance & will power.  Hell Vergo wasn't even phased from two DJz, a beating from Smoker, & a counter shock from Law. But was then 1-shotted by Law soon after. Not saying Marco is gonna 1-shot an admiral but he's gonna have a better chance giving them a harder fight, the more we see from him...atleast against an opponent like Akainu.

Yes Akainu was portrayed stronger than Marco, yet Marco clashed with Kizaru evenly.  That just tells us  Marco is closer to Kizaru than he is to Akainu....the strongest admiral.

AoE doesn't equal power.  Marco had enough Haki & physical strength ability to send admirals flying. & this was not to all out defeat them 1v1 but rather stop them momentarily. & again when did the admirals do significant damage to him besides when he was caught off-guard? It works both ways.  Marco was near untouchable in that war.

When I say Marco is close to Kizaru, I mean as Sanji is close to Luffy.
He's not gonna win yea, but he;s defiantly going to push him which most people seem to agree with.
Except AK


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## Lord Melkor (Jun 21, 2013)

I agree with what 8Bit and Sakazuki are saying, among others. If one Admiral can solo almost entire WB's crew on his own, then the MF battle does not make much sense. I would say that MF WB, Marco, Jozu and Vista were together roughly as strong as three Admirals and the weaker commanders together could propably match one Admiral in power (several of them helped Luffy get past Kizaru), while the Allied Captains could match the Vice Admirals. Marines had an advantage (mainly due to WB's health and battle being fought on their territory) but not a totally ovewhelming one, also due to Mihawk not being totally serious.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 21, 2013)

I would take MF feats with a grain of salt, they're all over the place. 

Urouge were have you been? Hope everythings ok.


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## Dunno (Jun 22, 2013)

The Admirals takes this. The WB pirates just don't have the firepower to take down an admiral. We saw in the war what happened when they got free hits on Aokiji or Akainu. Compare that to what happened when an admiral caught one of them off guard and the outcome is obvious. The only one close to admiral level is Marco, and that's mostly due to his df. 

Would you really bet against Akainu here?: 

Now if you add one-armed Jozu and Vista to the WB side and Fujitora to Akainu's side, it's even better for the admirals.


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## Bitty (Jun 22, 2013)

the WB pirates have the firepower to take down an admiral.  Just because they can't 1-shot them & or don't have the insane AoE the admirals have doesn't mean they can't damage the admirals.

The reason admirals are able to 1-shot or end the battles quickly on an opponent because their abilities are more hax & lethal compared to simple offensive maneuvers of the WB pirates, not cause they out-right stomp them.  We know Aokiji's ice abilities  bypass conventional durability & we know with the right opportunity Akainu can melt through someone's face like butter.

Garp got a free on hit Marco, what that did? Virtually nothing in the long run. Doesn't mean Garp can't defeat Marco just cause he can't 1-shot him.  Magellan caught Blackbeard off-guard & took down him & his entire crew with hax & lethal abilities.  Caesar took down Luffy, the SHs & G-5 in less than 15 seconds with his hax & lethal abilities. Different abilities work better in different situation regardless of the characters strength.

For the record i'm not even saying the WB pirates win, I'm just saying they defiantly don't get stomped or get soloed by 1 admiral.


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## barreltheif (Jun 22, 2013)

Lord Melkor said:


> I agree with what 8Bit and Sakazuki are saying, among others. If one Admiral can solo almost entire WB's crew on his own, then the MF battle does not make much sense. I would say that MF WB, Marco, Jozu and Vista were together roughly as strong as three Admirals and the weaker commanders together could propably match one Admiral in power (several of them helped Luffy get past Kizaru), while the Allied Captains could match the Vice Admirals. Marines had an advantage (mainly due to WB's health and battle being fought on their territory) but not a totally ovewhelming one, also due to Mihawk not being totally serious.




We actually saw Akainu beating most of the commanders at once. What actually happened in the manga>your flawed reasoning. The lower commanders cannot equal an admiral; they cannot even connect with an admiral due to logia intangibility. Again, we already saw this.

For some reason you seem to think that MF was supposed to be a roughly even fight. It wasn't at all. It was WB and allies trying to briefly stall the much stronger marine forces long enough that one of them could cross a few hundred feet, make it to Ace, and free him. Through incredible luck, Luffy did manage to make it Ace, but at the cost of Marco and Jozu losing to the marines, and WB ultimately dying.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jun 22, 2013)

8Bit said:


> When I say Marco is close to Kizaru, I mean as Sanji is close to Luffy.
> He's not gonna win yea, but he;s defiantly going to push him which most people seem to agree with.
> Except AK



I agree with the rest of your post but Sanji to Luffy = Marco to Kizaru is a bad example. Sanji wouldn't push Luffy once he tries  G2 and Sanji's blitzed


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## RF (Jun 22, 2013)

Akainu was not beating the commanders. They were clashing equally and we only saw him standing on top of Curiel with _half of Marineford_ backing him up.

Though I do agree that anyone who isn't Jozu, Marco or Vista can do next to nothing to an admiral.


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## Bitty (Jun 22, 2013)

Haruhifan6969 said:


> I agree with the rest of your post but Sanji to Luffy = Marco to Kizaru is a bad example. Sanji wouldn't push Luffy once he tries  G2 and Sanji's blitzed



oh....weird how literally no one else thinks that.  Maybe you're special.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jun 22, 2013)

No, a lot of people think Luffy would mid diff Sanji. And Kizaru can't mid diff Marco, so IMO it's a bad example
Base Luffy => Sanji


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## Bitty (Jun 22, 2013)

by alotta people you mean just you & maybe two other people?! 
considering majority of the section knows Sanji can give Luffy high-diff including the most well-respected posters.

wow I really need hop on this bandwagon


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## Typhon (Jun 22, 2013)

I feel like people tend to forget that the only marine who remotely went all out at the war was Akainu. If Aokiji gets serious, the entire area they are fighting on will get frozen over taking out everyone but the top three themselves and Fugitora. Jozu and Vista can be dealt with by Aokiji so he'll take care of them while Fugitora deals with Marco long enough for Aokiji to come in and clean up.

The WB commanders are so overestimated on this forum, it's ridiculous. I'll give you Marco being strong, but Jozu and Vista didn't show anything that warrants them actually being able to fight a serious Admiral. Stalling is not the same as actually fighting on an equal playing field. And lets not even go into them actually being able to damage the admirals. Jozu, Marco, and Vista all got free shots in on an Admiral and didn't do any real damage. The reverse happens and Jozu gets owned. You can chalk it up to the nature of abilities, but then what would be the excuse for Vista and Marco who used cutting attacks?

I give it to Aokiji and Fugitora high diff.


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## Quuon (Jun 22, 2013)

The marco pirates take it.


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## Purchase (Jun 23, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> ^What kind of speculation puts Fujitora>Marco?
> 
> Marco was the first mate of WB.
> 
> ...



What do you mean Aokiji with unpredcedented power? The admirals before him that we know were, Prime Sengoku and Garp ( Well he was offered it so he clearly obtained the power level required) and in their prime they're hyped up to be stronger than pre skip akoji. 

So what's the precedent or average of an admiral. 

Lets take those five

Prime Sengoku>=Prime Garp> Akainu > Akoiji > Kizaru

So if anything the averge or precedent for an admiral would be stronger than Akoiji. So there's no reason to think Fujoritora ( Who was inspired by ******** Zatochi) would be weaker.


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## Teach (Jun 23, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> The fact that Marco has been hyped up to ridiculous levels, tangoed with all the original admirals in the war, is the first mate of the strongest man in the world, has been on the seas for 20+ years, and has been mentioned in the same ballpark as the emperors.


No he hasn't, he's been portrayed as the strongest member of WB pirates aside from Whitebeard. That is all.


> All of this portrayal, including his feats put him on the same level as the admirals, and nigh equal to Kizaru.


No it does not, he's weaker than every single admiral


> I see no reason to pin Fujitora _that_ high simply because of his rank.



Admirals are the strongest fighting force of the marines. If we only go by that, he's stronger than Marco.

Admirals win. Akainu was portrayed to be able to face them alone.


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## Dellinger (Jun 23, 2013)

Did I see someone saying that Sengoku >= Garp?


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## Coruscation (Jun 23, 2013)

Hardly the most outrageous statement out of this topic.


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## RF (Jun 23, 2013)

Purchase said:


> What do you mean Aokiji with unpredcedented power? The admirals before him that we know were, Prime Sengoku and Garp ( Well he was offered it so he clearly obtained the power level required) and in their prime they're hyped up to be stronger than pre skip akoji.
> 
> So what's the precedent or average of an admiral.
> 
> ...



lol **


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## Zorofangirl24 (Jun 23, 2013)

Prime Garp > Akainu > Aokiji > Kizaru > Prime Sengoku

Garp is the WSM (World's strongest marine)


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## jNdee~ (Jun 23, 2013)

Blah blah blah


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## Harard (Jun 23, 2013)

I'm sorry, but Aokiji and Fujitora have no shot at defeating the WB pirates. This is a former Yonkou crew we're talking about here.


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## dredalus (Jun 23, 2013)

admirals wins, fujitora beats marco while aokiji lolfreeze everyone except jozu/vista who still get beaten mid-high by a serious aokiji.


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## Mihawk (Jun 23, 2013)

Purchase said:


> What do you mean Aokiji with unpredcedented power? The admirals before him that we know were, Prime Sengoku and Garp ( Well he was offered it so he clearly obtained the power level required) and in their prime they're hyped up to be stronger than pre skip akoji.
> 
> So what's the precedent or average of an admiral.
> 
> ...



What the fuck are you talking about, man? If Sengoku & Garp were such monsters in their prime, then it's obvious that they are "above average" compared to the rank they hold. Why would that be a reason for Fujitora being stronger than Aokiji? 

And Jinbe stated that to cope with Aokiji's resignation, which caused a huge blow and a loss to the marine forces, the Government did something to compensate for those powers, which included giving the marines unprecedented power. We don't know the specifics of this, but it speaks volumes to the detriment Aokiji caused by leaving. 

Being inspired by Zatoichi doesn't mean that he's gonna be stronger than Aokiji. 

Everything is just speculation at this point, until we see what this man is capable of, which is soon, and I look forward to it.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jun 24, 2013)

Sakazuki after getting a hardcore beating by WB.. was burning Curiel face while Marco was crying....
Put Ao Kiji and Fujitora together (the supreme force of the marines - yonkou = admirals imo) and the the wb pirates get raped while Marco ends up with a frozen stick in his butt.


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## Marcο (Jun 24, 2013)

Marco pirates win.


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## Halcyon (Jun 25, 2013)

Marco Pirates. The commanders were in the same ballpark from what we saw at MF, and were taken down after being distracted iirc. I could be wrong on that though.

Either way, Marco, Vista, Jozu, plus more commanders and tons of fodder vs 2 admirals? It is close though.


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## ZeroWolf123 (Jun 25, 2013)

not enough feats, only speculation.


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## Lord Melkor (Jun 25, 2013)

I also think that people are too quick about dismissing the weaker commanders as a complete non-factor, they were also going against Admirals during MF battle. Several of them told Luffy they they get get him through 
Kizaru.


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## banzam522 (Oct 4, 2013)

all of the WB vs the 2 admirals? one of which. we have a little info.. hmmm thats kinda unfair don't you think?


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Oct 4, 2013)

Wow the wb pirates wanking morons still remain strong in these forums.....
Akainu was handling them on his *own*.. Ao Kiji is nearly equal to him. Add another top tier like Fujitora and the WB pirates are murdered horribly.
As for the gorosei statements, they said "The remainings of the WB pirates *might* be able to take down BB", which was an estimation which didnt even fucking happen.


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## Shinthia (Oct 4, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> Not as disgusting as the rookie wank though. Not anywhere near.


u r just mad cause they r trolling ur beloved Doflamingo


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## Language of Life (Oct 4, 2013)

banzam522 said:


> all of the WB vs the 2 admirals? one of which. we have a little info.. hmmm thats kinda unfair don't you think?



It is usually looked upon unfavorably to take a thread over a week old and bring it back into the spotlight. This is because by that time new feats or information could be revealed that make previous opinions or consensus's obsolete or flat out wrong. We also get people who don't check dates and will argue with very old posts which is just an unfortunately stupid and embarrassing situation.

What you have done is called "Necroing" a thread. A name adopted after a short lived yet notorious poster came around and constantly brought back year old threads.

Please don't do this. 

Also, Welcome to the forums.


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## Gibbs (Oct 4, 2013)

Marco & Vista take care of Fujitora, while Jozu & the rest stall Aokiji.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Oct 4, 2013)

Ao Kiji soloes the fodder commanders with ice age.
Ao Kijiholds Marco and Jozu while Fujitora fights Vista.
Vista gets beaten and Jozu gets distracted, Ao Kiji freezes him. 
Marco gets distracted by seeing Jozu getting frozen and Fujitora cuts his fucking head off.
The end.


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## RF (Oct 5, 2013)

> Akainu was handling them on his own..



He wasn't alone. He was supported by , , and a horde of  Oda blatantly  Akainu having every bit as much help  as Marco had. Classic WB pirates underestimation.

Anyway, as I said already, Marco takes care of Fujitora while the rest give Aokiji a good beating.


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## trance (Oct 5, 2013)

Kuzan is the strongest one here and Fujitora is at least as strong as Marco but 3v2 (since the rest of the WB pirates are non-factor) can go in the the commander's favor. The duo is further crippled by Fujitora being nearly featless and while powerscaling puts him very close to Kuzan's level, we simply don't know what exactly he can do.

Pirates win extreme difficulty.


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## RF (Oct 5, 2013)

Why would the rest of the WB pirates be non-factors? Are you seriously implying that Fujitora can fight Jozu or Marco while fending off 12 high tiers as well as the likes of Ace and Yami Blackbeard attacking him from all directions? He isn't some logia that lets attacks pass through him y'know.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Oct 5, 2013)

The classy WB pirates lower commanders hating is rampant in literally every thread where they are involved.

Yes they were not much help against top tier logias like the admirals, but it's painful to read that even against non-logias people assume they are just bystanders. I remember a thread where most people put _pre skip_ Supernova's above them. That's both disgusting and absurd.

If such a fight were ever to happen, of course Marco, Jozu and Vista would do most of the work, but the lower commanders would prove to be a useful asset, especially against Fujitora considering he isn't a logia.


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## warismydestiny (Oct 5, 2013)

just marco jozu and vista would be a fairer fight


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## jNdee~ (Oct 5, 2013)

That would be a edged mid-diff at best


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## Mihawk (Oct 5, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> u r just mad cause they r trolling ur beloved Doflamingo



Why are you responding to a post ages ago


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## Shanks (Oct 5, 2013)

Cruiel holds off akainu for 2 chapters by himself. Add another low rank commander should be enough to defeat an admiral. This match up is unfair to the admirals. Maybe add akainu, kizaru and greenbull and they might stand a chance. For now, pirates rape the admirals.


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## Shinthia (Oct 5, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> Why are you responding to a post ages ago



because i arrived late at this party


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## RF (Oct 5, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> Cruiel holds off akainu for 2 chapters by himself. Add another low rank commander should be enough to defeat an admiral. This match up is unfair to the admirals. Maybe add akainu, kizaru and greenbull and they might stand a chance. For now, pirates rape the admirals.



Haruhifan getting competition.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Oct 5, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> He wasn't alone. He was supported by , , and a horde of  Oda blatantly  Akainu having every bit as much help  as Marco had. Classic WB pirates underestimation.
> 
> Anyway, as I said already, Marco takes care of Fujitora while the rest give Aokiji a good beating.



Wrng again. The WB pirates werent alone neither, the pacifistas were hunting the 40 New World Captain allies as well as the Impel Down Prisoners.
The main battle was between Akainu and Marco, Vista, and their crew.
And whatever attacks Jozu, Vista, and Marco pulled on admirals had little to zero effect. Thats an undeniable fact.
Vista and Marco couldnt damage Sakazuki.
Jozu gave a blood lip to Ao Kiji who owned him a little later.
Kizaru was basically unscathed in his fght with Marco.

Now in my opinion (which is a little based on Chinjao's sayings) Yonkou = Admirals, can you see Shanks and Big Mom together losing to Vista, Marco and Jozu ? me neither....


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## RF (Oct 5, 2013)

Nah, the Vice Admirals and Pacifistas were all going after the Whitebeard pirates, and in the last panel I posted we can see how much back- up Akainu has.

The commanders didn't hurt the admirals a lot with punches and kicks because they are brawlers. Remember how many punches Luffy has to land to defeat an opponent on a similar level? Now obviously, an admiral can take a hell of a lot of damage so it won't be easy to put them down. But so can the commanders because they have the best defensive fruits in the series, so it evens out the playing field.

Look at it this way Gaara. Marco and Fujitora are more or less on the same level, right? Now, even if they are not, Marco can take a TON of damage so it would be hell on earth to put him down. This battle will draw out for days leaving us with Aokiji fighting the rest of the Whitebeard pirates. We have Vista, who, based on his fight with Mihawk, can _at least_ give Aokiji low-difficulty himself. Then we have Jozu, who has better hype, portrayal and feats than Vista so we can conclude that he could give Aokiji mid-difficulty if he doesn't get distracted again, right? If the two of them fight together, which is a massive advantage considering the insane difficulty of fighting 2 people at once, while taking their perfect teamwork into account, the two of them could give Aokiji high difficulty by themselves at least, right? If the two of them alone can push him _this_ far, can you seriously imagine Aokiji defeating them _and_ 12 other commanders who are at least high tiers, Ace who can pressure him with fire based attacks, Blackbeard who can town bust with blackhole and disrupt his movements with Dark Vortex, and on top of that thousands of fodder and 40 New World captains, out of which at least 5 are all comfortably vice admiral level?


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Oct 5, 2013)

Well Akainu and Donflamingo faced those commanders with relative ease.
For all we know those guys are like Ideos, Hijurdins and Bartolomeos.
Another note is that Akainu was already beaten by WB when he went on against them.
A few meteors, and ice ages would finish the commanders off....
Last but not least if Marco, Jozu and Vista often faced trouble bypassing admiral intagibility, what can Atmos, Izo and Curiel do ? Answer : Nothing relevant.


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## RF (Oct 5, 2013)

The point is, while they may not be too much in front of an admiral individually, as a team they're extremely powerful. 7 of them were entirely confident in getting past Kizaru and managed to do so, and Jozu is much stronger than any of those 7. Ace has shown the ability to cancel out Aokiji's attacks and would do so consistently when fighting with his teammates, and Blackbeard is extremely dangerous if he's not whacky.

Can you seriously imagine Aokiji fighting 12 people shooting and punching him simultaneously while Ace blasts him with fire from behind, Blackbeard disrupts his footing, Jozu pounds him with iceberg throwing physical strength, Vista cuts him with two extremely sharp swords and Vice Admiral level captains constatnly ganging up on him?


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## trance (Oct 5, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> Cruiel holds off akainu for 2 chapters by himself. Add another low rank commander should be enough to defeat an admiral. This match up is unfair to the admirals. Maybe add akainu, kizaru and greenbull and they might stand a chance. For now, pirates rape the admirals.



Downplaying again, eh m8? 

Based on the panel, I'm gonna say Curiel was oneshotted. 

With the matchup, the pirates take it but it's _far_ from a rape.

And lol at adding more Admirals. With that much firepower on one side, the Admirals would o-blit-er-8 the Marco pirates.


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## Lawliet (Oct 5, 2013)

Meteors falling from the space covered in a super thick ice layers from aokiji. Yeah, the WB's are fucked lol


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## RF (Oct 5, 2013)

So 2 admirals beat a Yonko crew without the Yonko and it's not even a contest? Nice.


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## Orca (Oct 5, 2013)

I'm assuming WB pirates dont have ace.

I'm also one of those people who doesn't put fuji below kuzan or borsalino. But i'll still go with WB pirates.

Marco and jozu alone can fight the admirals for an extended period of time. With the other commanders there to support them, they should be able to take it very very  high diff. Although i also believe admirals can win too.


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## Law (Oct 5, 2013)

Marco can stall an admiral long enough for the rest of the crew to take down the other admiral.


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## barreltheif (Oct 5, 2013)

I doubt that Marco can stall Aokiji for all that long. Unlike with Kizaru, Marco can regen from Aokiji's attacks.
It's definitely possible that Marco can draw out a fight with Fujitora almost indefinitely, but Vista+one-armed Jozu aren't beating Aokiji.
If, somehow, Aokiji is losing to Jozu and Vista, it's not like Fujitora will just continue fighting Marco anyway. He'll stop trying to put down the constantly regenerating opponent and go help out Aokiji. Similarly, if Fujitora has that much trouble putting Marco down, then Aokiji will come and help Fujitora. Don't rig the matchups so that they favor the WB pirates just because you want them to win.


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## barreltheif (Oct 5, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> So 2 admirals beat a Yonko crew without the Yonko?




Um, yeah? I don't know about it "not being a contest", but there's nothing at all strange about the idea of 2 admirals beating a yonkou crew minus yonkou. Especially when the crew has just lost three of its top six or so fighters (Ace, Thatch, BB), and the second strongest fighter, a brawler, has lost a limb.


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## RF (Oct 6, 2013)

barreltheif said:


> Um, yeah? I don't know about it "not being a contest", but there's nothing at all strange about the idea of 2 admirals beating a yonkou crew minus yonkou. Especially when the crew has just lost three of its top six or so fighters (Ace, Thatch, BB), and the second strongest fighter, a brawler, has lost a limb.



I'm pretty sure that this is simply the Whitebeard pirates without Whitebeard but I could be wrong though. 

We've seen in the war that both Jozu and Vista can give moderately difficult battles to people on the level of the admirals, Jozu perhaps even more depending on how his diamond interacts with Fuji's meteors.

Together, both Jozu and Vista combined would give Aokiji a very difficult fight considering how they can perform well against him individually, it's a 2vs1 and the two have perfect teamwork. Now can you envision Aokiji fighting not only them, but a dozen of commanders who are all solid high tiers, and on top of that, if we're counting in allies and former members, Doma, McGuy, Elmy, Decalvan Brothers, 35 other New World captains, Ace, Blackbeard and Thatch?


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## Admiral Kizaru (Oct 6, 2013)

I'm telling you, Kuzan alone is enough.

There's only 3 decent fighters on the WB pirate side, Marco, Jozu and Vista. The rest are pure unadulterated fodder.

Quality not quantity folks.


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## Shanks (Oct 6, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> Downplaying again, eh m8?
> 
> Based on the panel, I'm gonna say Curiel was oneshotted.
> 
> ...


Saw AK's posts, so I can't resist.


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## Mihawk (Oct 6, 2013)

I was waiting for AK's posts in this thread.

For a second there, I thought if/when he posted he would say something like Ao/Fuji mid diff or something.
But no, "Kuzan alone is enough"  

Hahahahaha AK never change bro


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## GKY (Oct 6, 2013)

Marco almost became an Yonkou according to the Gorosei before the skip. Jozu + Marco would kick the shit out of Aokiji, while the fodder army + Vista take on Fuji. Numbers mean something in this manga. Seeing as how WB took tons of cannons, bullets, and sword wounds during the war it's not unreasonable to assume Fuji would do the same. Plus Vista, although certainly outmatched, won't be completely fodderized. If an admiral could just wipe out an entire Yonkou fleet with quickness and ease than the WG would have gotten the 3 admirals to stall WB, Marco and Jozu while Garp and Sengoku mascaraed the remainders. No need for fodder marines to die.


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## Cant Get Enough Hype (Oct 7, 2013)

If a single admiral could wipe out an entire Yonkou's crew minus the Yonkou, then the balance of power wouldnt make any sense. Seeing as how the Yonkou dont get along and basically jump at the chance to kill each other, then whats stopping the marines and Shichibukai from annihilating the Yonkou one at a time? World Governement summoned the Shichibukai and a majority of their forces to deal with Whitebeard AND his crew. If Aokiji could solo mid diff the entire crew then why sacrifice the lives of all the fodder marines, or even the vice captains? Surely the pre TS admirals could handle the WB pirates including WB by themselves.

Anyway seeing as how Fujitora isnt a logia its literally impossible for him to take on a force that big without taking serious damage. Marco is one of my favorites but i dont see him taking an admiral by himself, still he can delay one especially because of his DF. 

Marco pirates take it high diff.


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