# 11 Supernovas vs 7 Warlords



## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 24, 2013)

Location: Marineford, starting distance is 60 meters.
Intel: Full.
Mindset: IC.
Restrictions: None.
The opponents are the Post TS 11 Supernovas vs 7 Warlords (Mihawk, Crocodile, Doflamingo, Kuma, Moria, Boa Hancock, and Jimbei).


----------



## Shanks (Nov 24, 2013)

11 post skips Novas are basically feat-less so it's difficult to scale their power, useless you want to put them in similar level as Law...


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 24, 2013)

Mihawk, Doflamingo, Hancock and Kuma solo lol


----------



## blueframe01 (Nov 24, 2013)

Mihawk tips the scale in favor of the warlords IMO.


----------



## Halcyon (Nov 24, 2013)

Mihawk really makes the difference. I can't imagine that a single nova is even comparable to him.

Him and DD could quite possibly solo.


----------



## Goomoonryong (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk and Doflamingo can take out the SN together without much trouble. Hancock and Kuma make this a rape.


----------



## Shanks (Nov 25, 2013)

Most of you are not really using much brains and automatically thinks Warlords wins because Mihawk is top tier.

Like I said, it's difficult to predict, but if the top Novas are around Law's level, then

 - Hawkin, Kid, Apoo and Killer should be enough to take on Mihawk
 - Luffy alone should be enough to handle Joker
 - Zoro should give Hancock a run for her money
 - Law takes on Kuma
 - Drake solo Jimbie
 - The others should be more than enough to take on Croc & Moria


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 25, 2013)

Oh we're playing imaginary scenarios?

-Hawkin, Kid, Apoo and Killer would all get murdered by Mihawk (Unless you think these four are enough to beat the likes of the admirals in a fight).
- No one knows the answer to Doflamingo vs Luffy. By current Manga feats and facts, Doflamingo destroys Luffy.
-Zoro will give Hancock a good fight, he loses after with her being in a good condition to fight more. 
-Law could possibly take on Kuma. Gets destroyed by Hancock later.
-Drake does not solo Jimbei, although I think he wins with extreme difficulty. Gets destroyed by Doflamingo later.
Crocodile and Moria owns Bonny, Capone and Urgoue. If not, throw any other warlord, whoever finishes first.


----------



## Shanks (Nov 25, 2013)

So it's really a matter of weather kid, killer, apoo and hawkin can take on Mihawk or not. I see kid to be slightly above Law  or even luffy with the others around law's level.

You saw how law bought time with a serious joker and a casual fujitora. Then we have those 4 plotting a plan not only to take down a yonko, but her entire crew also. I can foresee that happen with the help of SHs.

Those should be able to push a top tier to extreme difficulties.


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 25, 2013)

Buying time does not equal a straight up fight. 
Law's plan was to buy some time for the rest of his alliance to destroy the factory. Buying time means stalling. Running away while fighting a little bit. If Law's plan was to fight for real instead of just buying some time, he would'v been defeated much faster. Oh and Joker was not serious. He took the matter seriously, but that does not mean he  was going all out or anything. When Doflamingo got serious, Law got 3 bullets in his chest.


----------



## barreltheif (Nov 25, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Oh we're playing imaginary scenarios?
> -Drake does not solo Jimbei, although I think he wins with extreme difficulty. Gets destroyed by Doflamingo later.





oOLawlietOo said:


> Mihawk, Doflamingo, Hancock and Kuma solo lol





Halcyon said:


> Mihawk really makes the difference. I can't imagine that a single nova is even comparable to him.
> Him and DD could quite possibly solo.




You guys don't know what "solo" means. No way Hancock and Doflamingo can solo. Mihawk might be able to solo, but in any case the shichibukai obviously win.


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 25, 2013)

I hope you know that I was listing these characters as a group.


----------



## barreltheif (Nov 25, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I hope you know that I was listing these characters as a group.




Exactly. How can a group solo?


----------



## Halcyon (Nov 25, 2013)

I know what solo means, I just used it incorrectly because I can. 

Mihawk could solo this. Doffy would really just be supplementary, he obviously couldn't solo the SNs if an exhausted Law could even touch him, considering they all have full intel.


----------



## Freechoice (Nov 25, 2013)




----------



## Ghost (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk solos.



oOLawlietOo said:


> Mihawk, Doflamingo, Hancock and Kuma solo lol



How can four people _solo_?

And Mihawk is the only who can solo this. M3 of SN would take out any Shichibukai bar Mihawk.


----------



## Bansai (Nov 25, 2013)

If we pretend that Kidd is slightly above Law's level and that everyone else is on the same level as Sanji or Franky, I can see the Shichibukai winning this.


----------



## Shanks (Nov 25, 2013)

I think the main problem is people legitimately think that Top Tiers are untouchable by anyone or group of people who's not considered a 'Top Tier'. On top of that, most people here still consider the Super Novas to be vice admiral level... 

News flash - Law's most recent feat are significantly above VA level. Luffy & Kid is almost guarantee to be stronger than Law.

The super nova are the next generation and they are the one causing shits all over the new world, while the average WB pirate allies being around VA level.

The Super novas are currently significantly stronger than VA and are no body's bitches.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 25, 2013)

Urouge solos.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 25, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> I think the main problem is people legitimately think that Top Tiers are untouchable by anyone or group of people who's not considered a 'Top Tier'. On top of that, most people here still consider the Super Novas to be vice admiral level...
> 
> News flash - Law's most recent feat are significantly above VA level. Luffy & Kid is almost guarantee to be stronger than Law.
> 
> ...



The high amount of conjecture in this post is horrible. Law's feat aren't above VA level beacuase non have gone all out. Onigumo was able to catch and hold down Marco while Law scratched DD. That little scuffle from the war was a teaser and not a fight. We didn't see them actually fighting. No SN is significantly stronger then any Vice Admiral as that's conjecture. Bonney, Capone, Apoo would all get trashed by Onigumo. This SN wank is highly disturbing. Did we see what all VA's can do? No. News flash- You're a wanker


----------



## Shanks (Nov 25, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> The high amount of conjecture in this post is horrible. Law's feat aren't above VA level beacuase non have gone all out. Onigumo was able to catch and hold down Marco while Law scratched DD. That little scuffle from the war was a teaser and not a fight. We didn't see them actually fighting. No SN is significantly stronger then any Vice Admiral as that's conjecture. Bonney, Capone, Apoo would all get trashed by Onigumo. This SN wank is highly disturbing. Did we see what all VA's can do? No. News flash- You're a wanker



VAs are folders like Anbu used to hype people.

Law's feat is not scratching DD, but dogging, cutting and running away from attacks from both DD and Fujitora simultaneously, while still having time to call Nami on the snail phone, then later troll and got away right under both of their chin. After that he saved Sanji and deflected Fujitora's meteor back at his battleship effortlessly. I know it's very convenience to forgot about these.

A fresh law would push DD to mid~high diff and DD can push a top tier to mid~high diff. Unless you think an Admiral can low diff DD (like a few other people), then then Mihawk ain't gong to solo here.

This entire thread is clearly 'conjecture', if you haven't notice already.


----------



## Orca (Nov 25, 2013)

Slenderman said:
			
		

> Onigumo was able to catch and hold down Marco



Onigumo wasn't able to hold down Marco. That was anime filler.


----------



## Roronoa-zoro (Nov 25, 2013)

Yea, once Mihawk starts swing those long-range haki slashes, the Supernovas are pretty much done.


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 25, 2013)

I hope you guys know that we were using the word solo as in destroy, that group destroys(solo). I know what solo means, when one dude takes this on his own, but I'll still use the word solo because I can. I'll let you know if I need any English lessons lol


----------



## Dunno (Nov 25, 2013)

Knife Mihawk soloes.


----------



## trance (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk and DD destroy.


----------



## 2Broken (Nov 25, 2013)

Anyone who thinks Mihawk can solo all 11 post-skip supernovas must be smoking that good stuff and i'd put my money on him + DD not being able to do it either.


----------



## Forcer (Nov 25, 2013)

Warlords got this


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 25, 2013)

2Broken said:


> Anyone who thinks Mihawk can solo all 11 post-skip supernovas must be smoking that good stuff and i'd put my money on him + DD not being able to do it either.



I'm not gonna argue whether Mihawk can do it or not right now, but it's possible. He's on par with the likes of shanks.


----------



## November (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk and DD rapes


----------



## 108CaliberPhoenix (Nov 25, 2013)

mihawk can't take on law, kid, apoo, luffy, zoro, killer, hawkins and drake + others all by himself. at least imo,
 if he could then they are all going to get raped in the NW. 
add in DD and Hancock and warlords should take it high diff. With all the warlords they win w/out to much trouble


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk is at the top of the new world. They will not get raped by random pirates, but they will get raped by the too dogs right now.  His strength is comparable to the yonkou themselves. Him taking on the supernovas at this point is not impossible. Unless you think the yonkou can't do it either.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 25, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> VAs are folders like Anbu used to hype people.
> 
> Law's feat is not scratching DD, but dogging, cutting and running away from attacks from both DD and Fujitora simultaneously, while still having time to call Nami on the snail phone, then later troll and got away right under both of their chin. After that he saved Sanji and deflected Fujitora's meteor back at his battleship effortlessly. I know it's very convenience to forgot about these.
> 
> ...



Conjecture is an opinion based off incomplete information. One is true while a thread isn't an opinion.  How am I denying those feats? It still doesn't mean jack to the admirals. You're a professional at not answering the question because you know you
re wrong but it's ''convenience'' to forget it. DD clearly didn't push Aokiji and he shat himself thinking about Fuji's meteor and he shit himself thinking about Kaido. He can't push anyone with that and you need to specify what top tier as you sound like a hardcore tierists who uses tiers when they shouldn't be used. All SN's aren't Law. You're argument is full of opinions. No damn Capone or Bonney is doing shit to Onigumo based on feats and hype. Get off the SN's dick for once. Oh and let me guess. You're next course of action is to call me a cunt like last time? Keep out swear words to try to boost a weak argument. Conjecture is saying that the weaker SN's are really stronger then one of the top VA's possibly like Onigumo. There's no base for your argument other then biased opinions because you want your favorite characters to win.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 25, 2013)

Luffee said:


> Onigumo wasn't able to hold down Marco. That was anime filler.





Held down is the wrong word. But he did hold on to his arm.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 25, 2013)

Urouge solos this .


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 25, 2013)

^ May Urouge watch over and protect you in all of your endeavors.


----------



## cry77 (Nov 25, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> Most of you are not really using much brains and automatically thinks *Warlords wins because Mihawk is top tier.*
> 
> Like I said, it's difficult to predict, but if the top Novas are around Law's level, then


that's because it's true


> - Hawkin, Kid, Apoo and Killer should be enough to take on Mihawk


not a chance in hell


> - Luffy alone should be enough to handle Joker


did you not see how joker manhandled law and smoker who both should be on luffys level?


> - Zoro should give Hancock a run for her money


nope


> - Law takes on Kuma


this I can agree with 


> - Drake solo Jimbie


this could go either way


> - The others should be more than enough to take on Croc & Moria


and this is true.

However, Mihawk would solo his foes within 5 minutes and come back the rest up


----------



## cry77 (Nov 25, 2013)

108CaliberPhoenix said:


> mihawk can't take on law, kid, apoo, luffy, zoro, killer, hawkins and drake + others all by himself. at least imo,
> *  if he could then they are all going to get raped in the NW. *
> add in DD and Hancock and warlords should take it high diff. With all the warlords they win w/out to much trouble


you act like mihawk is an average NW pirate


----------



## Louis-954 (Nov 25, 2013)

People seriously think that Mihawk or Doflamingo could *solo all 11*, simultaneously? Not a chance, they'd assuredly be overwhelmed.


----------



## Shanks (Nov 25, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> Conjecture is an opinion based off incomplete information. One is true while a thread isn't an opinion.  How am I denying those feats? It still doesn't mean jack to the admirals. You're a professional at not answering the question because you know you
> re wrong but it's ''convenience'' to forget it. DD clearly didn't push Aokiji and he shat himself thinking about Fuji's meteor and he shit himself thinking about Kaido. He can't push anyone with that and you need to specify what top tier as you sound like a hardcore tierists who uses tiers when they shouldn't be used. All SN's aren't Law. You're argument is full of opinions. No damn Capone or Bonney is doing shit to Onigumo based on feats and hype. Get off the SN's dick for once. Oh and let me guess. You're next course of action is to call me a cunt like last time? Keep out swear words to try to boost a weak argument. Conjecture is saying that the weaker SN's are really stronger then one of the top VA's possibly like Onigumo. There's no base for your argument other then biased opinions because you want your favorite characters to win.



You got no idea how weak this argument is. And did you just learn a new word? You seem to be using it a lot. FYI, I got no problem lowering myself to other people if I need to. If you want to start shit with anyone, then expect some sort of retaliation and take it like a man, then come back with a stronger personal attack. Weak is just weak.

I'll reply reply later. Make sure you wake up 3am to read it. It's seems like this is very important for you.


----------



## Patrick (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk and Doflamingo together are more than enough.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 25, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> You got no idea how weak this argument is. And did you just learn a new word? You seem to be using it a lot. FYI, I got no problem lowering myself to other people if I need to. If you want to start shit with anyone, then expect some sort of retaliation and take it like a man, then come back with a stronger personal attack. Weak is just weak.
> 
> I'll reply reply later. Make sure you wake up 3am to read it. It's seems like this is very important for you.



I'm using it a lot because I actually know the meaning. Lowering yourself. Dude get of your high horse. You can't even spell fodder properly. Or use convenience properly in a sentence. Take what like a man, your bs? Quite frankly someone who's the bigger person or man in this case is someone who doesn't demean themselves into calling someone the worst swear word. As I didn't call you a cunt. I would report you but I have better things to do rather then beat you in a debate every day and reporting you. This isn't important for me and I will not wake you up at 3 am. Someone using a word a lot means that it has fit into their vocabulary and not them using it when it doesn't make sense. AKA: You. I'm not mad despite someone talking shit to me previously. I can maintain my anger and try to have a decent debate but hence your fallacious and weak argument swearing is a must to help your mostly assumptive argument. Keyboard warriors don't scare me.


----------



## Shanks (Nov 25, 2013)

Still holding grudges? No one can help you if you can't recognise that you're the one who stated shit and so please don't be surprised or get hurt if another person retaliate 10 folds.

Just some advice for now:

1) Don't repeat the same arguments or attacks. Be creative and come up some with some new ones.
2) Don't go around saying you won an arrangement. Let the audience decide for you.
3) Don't sound offended. It only makes you look weak.


It's morning here and I'll be around later to draft a real response. I know you'll be up in the middle of the night to read and pretend you're not there. Let's face it, your life depends on this.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 25, 2013)

I have school I don't sit here all night. I'm not offended and you're implying that i'm weak but 2 years of martial arts says otherwise. Your trying to get a rage response but i'm not as low as you to call someone who's known to be an extremely nice person in every sport football(soccer) and much more. Also there's a reason why you don't reply to lots of my posts. You can't find an answer. Ask people in the thread and watch them tell you that you sound like a wanker and i'm right. Just like your tier list and your arguments. Full of opinions and extremely faulty. I'm a real man and i'm not a dirty vagina so you should stop with the (weak at that) personal attacks. It's embarrassing for the guests,members, and yourself.


----------



## Shanks (Nov 25, 2013)

^ Slederman - My first response to seeing this is "Hahahahahaha!!". Now, you're bring in your personal life and accomplishment to support yourself in a "Keyboard warriors" debate/flame war?

I don't respond to some of your posts because it's not worth responding to. I will though. Just wait! I BELIEVE IN YOU!!


----------



## 2Broken (Nov 25, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Mihawk is at the top of the new world. They will not get raped by random pirates, but they will get raped by the too dogs right now.  His strength is comparable to the yonkou themselves. Him taking on the supernovas at this point is not impossible. Unless you think the yonkou can't do it either.



Well until we see some other yonko actually fight, I wouldn't say they could solo the current supernovas. Plus we don't know for sure that Mihawk is on par with them only that he is a better swordsman than any of them. Personally I think he is, but you know what they say about assumptions. Mainly though his abilities are not suited well to fight that many opponents a once. 

In a hypothetical fight the supernovas are going to have a great deal of knowledge to work with thanks to Zoro, while Mihawk only has good knowledge on Zoro and Luffy.  Leaving out the supernovas that have not been shown post-skip Mihawk would have to fight Luffy, Zoro, Drake, Killer and Basil up close and Law, Kid and Apoo from a distance. Ability wise Kid can disarm him if he isn't careful, Law can redirect all his ranged attacks and Basil has to be killed several times. 

Not to mention that since Mihawk doesn't have an ability that will let him tank attacks he will have to dodge and block damn near everything. There is no way he can solo here unless he has some really broken ability we don't know about.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 25, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> ^ Slederman - My first response to seeing this is "Hahahahahaha!!". Now, you're bring in your personal life and accomplishment to support yourself in a "Keyboard warriors" debate/flame war?
> 
> I don't respond to some of your posts because it's not worth responding to. I will though. Just wait! I BELIEVE IN YOU!!



 You don't respond because *it doesn't make sense* the only thing that you do like in this argument is make assumptions like All SN's>VA's and then you make personal attacks. That's pretty low but since you like using the c word but it's something that you're used to doing. Like said since you won't tell me a good reason for why all SN'> VA's. Concession accepted. Again.


----------



## Lycka (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk would fodderize all of them.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 25, 2013)

It's a possibility.


----------



## 108CaliberPhoenix (Nov 25, 2013)

If Mihawk still fodderizes all 11 of them together then they are going to be needing some serious hyperbolic time training 
otherwise we won't be seeing any yonko go down to them in the relative future


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 25, 2013)

In the future are the key words. Saying that they're going to fight Yonkou's is not a very great argument since we don't know how long it will take. Luffy will surpass Shank's but that doesn't mean that he's at his level now.


----------



## 108CaliberPhoenix (Nov 25, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Mihawk is at the top of the new world. They will not get raped by random pirates, but they will get raped by the too dogs right now.  His strength is comparable to the yonkou themselves. Him taking on the supernovas at this point is not impossible. Unless you think the yonkou can't do it either.



I was a bit vague in saying New World. But aren't they aiming for the yonko who are a little stronger than Mihawk or close to his level. And Mihawk doesn't really have any business fighting the SN besides Zoro and vice versa so chances of him fighting them are quite low. 



cry77 said:


> you act like mihawk is an average NW pirate



No, but the the Supernovas are planning on attacking the yonko who are at or above Mihawks level.


----------



## Sablés (Nov 25, 2013)

thread is fanfic.

why post in it?


----------



## SteampunkJester (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk tips the scales in favor of the Warlords. If he wasn't here then I could feasibly see the Supernovas taking this on the high end of extreme difficulty.


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 25, 2013)

Doflamingo paralyzes a Supernova, Mihawk chops his head off. Repeat the process 11 times and you have a winner lol

In all seriousness. I think Mihawk,Doflamingo,Kuma and Hancock as a team would just rape the supernovas. Mihawk and Doflamingo can probably win this, not going to be so easy, but I really doubt that Mihawk and Doflamingo as a team would be pushed to their limit. Zoro who should be more or less equal to all of the Supernovas trained for two straight years with Mihawk himself. He's still going to travel the seas with Luffy, beat countless crew including the yonkou themselves. After all that, He will be a worthy opponent to fight Mihawk and pull off a win against him. Doesn't that tell you how much the gap is between Mihawk and the current Supernovas? I have no doubt at all that Luffy will get much stronger in the next couple arcs, but currently? the gap between them and Mihawk is just too big.  And what I said will be proven soon once we see how Zoro and Luffy fare against Doflamingo. With that being said, remember than Mihawk should be stronger than Doflamingo with a noticeable margin.


----------



## warismydestiny (Nov 25, 2013)

the post skip novas take this with extreme diificulty. This thread a prime example of the insanity of the mihawk and dofla wankers
some people *actually* think that mihawk and doflamingo can solo the post skip novas rofl


----------



## Shanks (Nov 26, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> You don't respond because *it doesn't make sense* the only thing that you do like in this argument is make assumptions like All SN's>VA's and then you make personal attacks. That's pretty low but since you like using the c word but it's something that you're used to doing. Like said since you won't tell me a good reason for why all SN'> VA's. Concession accepted. Again.



Firstly, don?t nag and bitch when someone makes a personal attack against you if you already retaliate with more personal attacks. When a flame war is on, it?s FUCKEN on. It doesn?t matter what the other person say or do, because you?re just as bad for engaging and retaliating. So stop whining and start throwing real punches. 
Now let me carefully elaborate on how ridiculously some of your posts/comments are.

Law?s Feat 

You purposely devalue his feats over the last few chapters by making a  shitty statement such as ?while Law scratched DD? and then comparing it with a low blow like Onigumo cuffing a distracted, wounded Marco which was already being occupy by Kizaru.

Kizaru?s move was a low blow, while Onigumo is even lower and there?s even a person online who have the decency to call that a feat and want to compare it with Law?s feat against Fujitora and Don Flamingo.

You call yourself a goon, but most people here would agree that you?re the weakest out of all of them and maybe you should become the carry boy within the group, just like Onigumo to Kizaru.

The Novas

We have not seen 60% of them fight during post-skip and 90% of them have not gone all out. Of the 10% that has (Law), most of his fight was off panel, therefore this entire thread is based on hype, story progression and the infamous word you recently learned and love so much ?conjecture?. 

Law alone is well above any VAs and from a story progression and positioning for the Super Nova, Law is strongest nor is he the weakness.

Bonny, Urouge and Capone Bege are the weakest of the Novas, but your post made it out that those are the average Novas.

From a story progression and hype, Luffy, Kid and possibly Zoro should be above Law, while Drake, Killer, Apoo, Hawkin is give or take the same level.

The guys are the future pirate generation, the future Yonko, Pirate King and legends. Most of them are already well above VA level and their combine power in a group is more than capable of matching and holding off any top tier in the one piece world at the moment.

Oda aren?t stupid. If Kid, Killer, Hawkin and Apoo cannot isn?t capable of standing a chance against Big Mom and her crew, then Oda wouldn?t have position them there.

Similarly, Luffy, Zoro, Law, Sanji and pal is in fact capable of taking down Joker and the Donquixote family in this arch while hold of marines, CP0 and Fujitora to get away safely. That is pretty much confirmed.

Vice Admirals are folders and hype materials
?	Strawberry ? Foderise by Jinbe
?	Momonga ? Low Dif by Hancock
?	Vergo ? 1 shot by Law
?	Smoker ? Low dif by Law, Low Dif by Vergo and got stomp by Joker
?	Maynard ? Low dif by Bart
?	Giant Vas ? Oz Junior rape all giants and giant VA simultaneously
Those are just to name a few. And they basically all got low dif or stomp by people that the Fandom considered ?High Tier?.

During Marineford the top VAs was match up against random WB allies, while the Novas are causing chaos in the new world, challenging and defeating these types of pirates and are currently working to take down Big Mom and Kaido.

There is of course the few exception like Garp, Coby and Smoker later on, but beside from those guys, VAs are basically folders. Just wait and see Bastille get rape by Zoro or Luffy in the next few chapters.

Don Flamingo
Aokiji vs. Don Flamigo wasn?t a fight, nor there was a winner. It?s basically, Aokiji told DD to not attacking Smoker and he proceeds, but then got frozen, but was able to effortlessly break out of it.

After that, they basically had a casual conversation and Don Flamingo walked away with a big smile. This is indicating that DD may not be as strong as Aokiji, but fairly close and ain?t no body?s bitch.

Against Fujitora, he was just shock of why Fujitora?s meteor almost hit him because no marines have ever tried to attack him due to his status.

The thing with Kaido is extremely weird. If people think about it for one 1 sec. Unless Kaido is a real monster who well above an Admiral, Don Flamigo should not be acting like that. We need to wait and see how things get explained later on.



And did I forget to call you a C..... C..... C...... something do with pussy! Can you remind me?


----------



## Orca (Nov 26, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> Held down is the wrong word. But he did hold on to his arm.



He didn't. He only put the cuffs on. In the bottom right panel, you can see that Marco brought his cuffed arm right in front his face and is looking at it. That wouldn't have happened if onigumo was holding on to it.


----------



## cry77 (Nov 26, 2013)

Law aint well above any VA


----------



## The Bloody Nine (Nov 26, 2013)

Roronoa-zoro said:


> Yea, once Mihawk starts swing those long-range haki slashes, the Supernovas are pretty much done.



LMAO. Those slashes, for all their flash and theatre, counldn't even kill preskip Luffy. This Mihawk wank rears its ugly head again. 

Kidd + Killer is more than enough to deal with Mihawk. For all we know Kidd might already be strong enough to solo. Either way Mihawk isn't beating a high tier sword user like Killer (Vista anyone ?) while also fighting a magnet man. Kidd is literally his worst opponent. Mihawk doesnt seem to have any hax to back him up either, just a straight forward hack and slash person. 

Law + Luffy  should also be more then enough to take out Joker. Probably too much. Just Law and Zoro might get away with it themselves. 

Luffy or probabaly at this point Drake can solo Kuma.  The rest try to out-hax and survive Hancock until Luffy or Kidd come to back them up. The rest are neglible. 

Supernovas win mid difficulty IMO and that's only because Doflamingo and Hancock hax wont be easy to deal with.


----------



## duhjuanwhowins (Nov 26, 2013)

The supernovas are just lucky that they're not fighting against warlord buggy. Buggy would just be overkill.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 26, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> Firstly, don’t nag and bitch when someone makes a personal attack against you if you already retaliate with more personal attacks. When a flame war is on, it’s FUCKEN on. It doesn’t matter what the other person say or do, because you’re just as bad for engaging and retaliating. So stop whining and start throwing real punches.
> Now let me carefully elaborate on how ridiculously some of your posts/comments are.
> 
> Law’s Feat
> ...



Everybody in my organization is well above you thank you very much. I'm not a person who acts like a dick and calls people swear words becuase I think i'm cool. IE: You. Strawbeery never got low diffed my Jinbei. We saw them clash and that's it. You are making things up. There's a difference when someone is trying to fight you and when their not. Momanga wasn't on a mission to beat her. Law's fruit is made to one shot people bar counter shock. He used his best move to date to beat Vergo and that was because Vergo was cocky and took the attack head on. Yes low diff is when someone chock slams you and you have to rip the guys heart out to win. Law practically the whole fight was on the defensive. Luffy got low diffed by CC. Anyone  with brain cells knows that hax is a factor sometimes. Just like the element of surprise when Zoro got caught of guard by YCB. Oars junior didn't fight Onigumo, Doberman and much others all at once. Panels or cut the bull shit. They clashed which is different from a fight. I honestly don't give two shits if you think that was a morally right or wrong choice nobody cares. Okay then. We'll see about Bastille who said that Maynard was a rookie. So when you start to pant and then run your ass away you effortlessly broke out? Fail logic. Please say it again if it makes you feel better. I don't spend my days calling people the c word and being a keyboard warrior. How can you say that Law is above all VA's that's simply speculation because you haven't seen most of them fight.  
Your argument is this: 
>Swear 
>Say people have a weak argument while yours is speculation 
>Make up false assumptions and act like their fact. 

Call me when you actually stop wanking the SN's. Sanji is near SN level which in this case is near Luffy. Sanji clearly wasn't significantly above Vergo. In fact you could ask Kishido the number one Sanji fan and he's tell you that Verog would have won. Come back with an argument with facts not you making biased assertions and talking out of your ass.


----------



## Halcyon (Nov 26, 2013)

You're seriously overestimating the SN if you think two of them can beat Mihawk. Casual swing ice mountain feat trumps anything we've seen from any SN by a significant margin.

That's just a god damn fact. Then add in, for one, that haki might counter Kidd's magnetism. For two, I doubt his magnetism is even strong enough to off set Mihawk's top tier stats. Just saying "lol magnetism" doesn't instantly make it a win for the opposing side.

Kidd is not soloing 

Kidd has zero feats of disarming any swordsman of note, and hasn't been hyped anywhere near the level to be able deal with Mihawk by himself. 

Joker is just there for back up, the duo clears them out comfortably.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 26, 2013)

Luffee said:


> He didn't. He only put the cuffs on. In the bottom right panel, you can see that Marco brought his cuffed arm right in front his face and is looking at it. That wouldn't have happened if onigumo was holding on to it.



I meant if I didn't say he was holding his back but 2 of his arms were there.


----------



## Rob (Nov 26, 2013)

Kid could most definitely hold Mihawk off guys. 

He has magnetic power. 

He would pull Mihawk's sword away leaving him vulnerable. 

SN's take this guys.


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 26, 2013)

Kidd lost an arm because he messed with the new world thinking he can outshine people in a day. He probably lost that arm against an opponent that's not one of the Yonkou. Mihawk's strength is comparable to the Yonkou themselves. Yeah, Kidd will be just fine.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 26, 2013)

Halcyon said:


> You're seriously overestimating the SN if you think two of them can beat Mihawk. Casual swing ice mountain feat trumps anything we've seen from any SN by a significant margin.
> 
> That's just a god damn fact. Then add in, for one, that haki might counter Kidd's magnetism. For two, I doubt his magnetism is even strong enough to off set Mihawk's top tier stats. Just saying "lol magnetism" doesn't instantly make it a win for the opposing side.
> 
> ...



Kid using his fruit would make him draw Mihawk in so that the fight could end quicker. But hey man the SN's are fighting Yonkou's so they have to be strong enough to beat and in pairs beat top tiers. Luke. You were right. The rookie wank is disgusting.


----------



## Lmao (Nov 29, 2013)

How is Kidd disarming or even bothering Mihawk's sword with magnetism? Kokuto Yoru isn't your average steel sword  you know:


----------



## RF (Nov 29, 2013)

Warlords roll them over. Not sure whether Mihawk can solo though.


----------



## RF (Nov 29, 2013)

> Smoker ? Low dif by Law, Low Dif by Vergo and got stomp by Joker



Where the hell are you getting this nonsense from?

He nearly beat Law and was more or less even with Vergo.


----------



## Lycka (Nov 29, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Where the hell are you getting this nonsense from?
> 
> He nearly beat Law and was more or less even with Vergo.



No he didn't. Law was clearly above Smoker never *really* losing control of the fight.


----------



## RF (Nov 29, 2013)

OPtiers said:


> No he didn't. Law was clearly above Smoker never *really* losing control of the fight.



lolwut......



He almost lost.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 29, 2013)

No man you got it all wrong. All SN's are significantly above all Vice Admirals.  Honestly some people only look at fights and only see who the victor is without looking at what the victor did to win.


----------



## Mihawk (Nov 29, 2013)

I can definitely see Mihawk soloing. 
A heavily injured Akainu took out Ace, Jinbei, Ivankov, Curiel, in a row, before facing off with Marco & co. 

Mihawk would fodderize the likes of Luffy & Law in a one on one, and still stomp or beat with low difficulty, in a 2 V 1 fight(remember, Fujitora was making Law & Doflamingo panic with a casual feat, and Doflamingo is stronger than Luffy/Law, while from the perspective of narrative importance and plot, Mihawk>Fujitora). Adding the likes of Kidd, Drake & Hawkins only means that he needs to try harder.

Not to mention the rest of the Novas who aren't the above 5 are absolute non factors.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Nov 29, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> I can definitely see Mihawk soloing.
> A heavily injured Akainu took out Ace, Jinbei, Ivankov, Curiel, in a row, before facing off with Marco & co.
> 
> Mihawk would fodderize the likes of Luffy & Law in a one on one, and still stomp or beat with low difficulty, in a 2 V 1 fight(remember, Fujitora was making Law & Doflamingo panic with a casual feat, and Doflamingo is stronger than Luffy/Law, while from the perspective of narrative importance and plot, Mihawk>Fujitora). Adding the likes of Kidd, Drake & Hawkins only means that he needs to try harder.
> ...



I agree with most of what you said, but do you believe Mihawk`s haki is strong enough to resist law`s slashes?


----------



## Mihawk (Nov 29, 2013)

I believe that Law is a scrub to Mihawk, so he can't do squat anyways.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Nov 29, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> I believe that Law is a scrub to Mihawk, so he can't do squat anyways.



Of course, Mihawks is a much stronger fighter, overall, but bear in mind that Law's devil fruit makes him one of the most powerful fighters out there. If his slashes were to connect with your body, there really is no going back, unless you have adequate haki to escape getting decapitated. Anyways, I know most people that try to refute the argument that his Devil fruit makes him one of the most  powerful contenders by taking the scene in which he failed to cut Doflamingo, but most people don't understand that he had just gotten back from countless fights against several strong opponents and that his DF drains his strength, drastically. I still withhold the idea that Law might have a chance against Mihawk if he manages to cut him prior to mihawk blitzing him and cutting the shit out of him. Mihawk is a mysterious character. When the time comes, he'll show us things that are unimaginable.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 29, 2013)

Law is not one of the most strongest fighters. Smoker clearly isn't and he pushed Law to mes.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Nov 29, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> Law is not one of the most strongest fighters. Smoker clearly isn't and he pushed Law to mes.



Read the context of my post. I never stated he was, but his devil fruit makes him one of the strongest fighters, stalemating an admiral that can casually destroy islands and a shishibukai at the same time.


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 29, 2013)

Mirage said:


> I agree with most of what you said, but do you believe Mihawk`s haki is strong enough to resist law`s slashes?



Because Mihawk stands at the top of the world (his words). Those who are at the top of the world must have incredible Haki or otherwise they cannot survive.

Mihawk has trained Zoro for two years. The Zoro we know right now showed some nice Haki feats considering how many fights he had to go through since the time skip which shows us how much of a monster Mihawk has to be to transform someone like pre skip Zoro who knew nothing about Haki to this current Zoro.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Nov 29, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Because Mihawk stands at the top of the world (his words). Those who are at the top of the world must have incredible Haki or otherwise they cannot survive.
> 
> Mihawk has trained Zoro for two years. The Zoro we know right now showed some nice Haki feats considering how many fights he had to go through since the time skip which shows us how much of a monster Mihawk has to be to transform someone like pre skip Zoro who knew nothing about Haki to this current Zoro.



Nope, this is a fallacy of composition. The false assumption that something which is true about top swordsman being strong is true for Mihawk as a whole. You cannot arbitrarily claim that Mihawk has top haki simply because he stands at the top of the world regarding swordsmanship. You can't claim something when a conclusion is drawn about a whole based on the features of its part when, in fact, no justification provided for the inference. Moreover, I am not doubting that mihawk has haki, but he failed to show use of haki in the pre time skip against Buggy, making me wonder if it's his 2nd year learning haki.

He might of trained Zoro, note that there is no evidence suggesting that he taught Zoro the essence of haki. Heck, zoro could have learned Haki himself, so there really is no say as to making speculative claims like he taught zoro haki.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 29, 2013)

Mirage said:


> Read the context of my post. I never stated he was, but his devil fruit makes him one of the strongest fighters, stalemating an admiral that can casually destroy islands and a shishibukai at the same time.



Law didn't stalemate an admiral. He was running the whole fight. Not once did we see him attack. Fuji hasn't shown to be busting islands. He clearly couldn't roll with a casual Fuji without stumbling and getting hurt. he's not at the top or one of the strongest.


----------



## Slenderman (Nov 29, 2013)

Also Mirage lots of people say that simply Buggy can't be cut even if the person uses haki so it doesn't make a lot of sense. Zoro can't teach himself haki as the main character didn't even do that. Mihawk is hyped to have great haki as he is at a top position. Remember haki allows you to touch a devil fruit users body not the ability to negate their powers. Buggy could still be able to not get hurt as parmerica is his real body. He could be immune to all cuts.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Nov 29, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> Law didn't stalemate an admiral. He was running the whole fight. Not once did we see him attack. Fuji hasn't shown to be busting islands. He clearly couldn't roll with a casual Fuji without stumbling and getting hurt. he's not at the top or one of the strongest.



You're not reading the context again, and it seems like you're ignoring my arguments on purpose. Law didn't necessarily overpower Doflamingo and Issho, but the premise of my argument was intended to show how powerful Law's devil fruit makes him and how it enables him to fight against a shishibukai and an admiral at the same time, without automatically losing to them which most characters would succumb to. Fujitora can easily destroy islands with his meteorites. If you believe otherwise, then I suggest you retake a course in science and study pretty hard. This is a strawman. claiming that I said he's one of the strongest. I said his devil fruit makes him contend with most strong fighters in the verse. Read what's in the context instead of concocting your own version of what I said.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Nov 29, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> Also Mirage lots of people say that simply Buggy can't be cut even if the person uses haki so it doesn't make a lot of sense. Zoro can't teach himself haki as the main character didn't even do that. Mihawk is hyped to have great haki as he is at a top position. Remember haki allows you to touch a devil fruit users body not the ability to negate their powers. Buggy could still be able to not get hurt as parmerica is his real body. He could be immune to all cuts.



Buggy's devil fruit enables him absolute immunity to piercing attacks like swords and knives, this much has been proven by Oda himself. You're not reading the context of my arguments. Not sure if you have a problem with reading, but I am giving you the benefit of the doubt on that matter; My initial argument was to prove how we cannot arbitrarily claim Mihawk's haki is top notch when there is an absence of evidence suggesting that he can use Haki. It's highly likely that he can use haki given his title and all, but for logical reasons, in the view of a debate, it remains speculation, nonetheless. Zoro might off somehow stumbled upon the use of haki by an unknown reason which oda has still yet to learn, or it may simply be Mihawk's teachings which allowed Zoro to learn haki. However, mihawk still failed to display use of haki when he had the perfect chance to use Haki against buggy, but that may very well be an inconsistency from Oda's part. Ergo, It's highly likely that Mihawk can use Haki, but it still remains speculation that he can, or that he taught Zoro haki. I am also of the opinion that he taught Zoro haki, but it's speculation, give or take.


----------



## hokageyonkou (Nov 29, 2013)

Laws fruit is hax but it tires out fast so.it seems. He won't last long against anyone dofla level and above.


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 30, 2013)

Mirage said:


> Nope, this is a fallacy of composition. The false assumption that something which is true about top swordsman being strong is true for Mihawk as a whole. You cannot arbitrarily claim that Mihawk has top haki simply because he stands at the top of the world regarding swordsmanship. You can't claim something when a conclusion is drawn about a whole based on the features of its part when, in fact, no justification provided for the inference. Moreover, I am not doubting that mihawk has haki, but he failed to show use of haki in the pre time skip against Buggy, making me wonder if it's his 2nd year learning haki.
> 
> He might of trained Zoro, note that there is no evidence suggesting that he taught Zoro the essence of haki. Heck, zoro could have learned Haki himself, so there really is no say as to making speculative claims like he taught zoro haki.




Okay let me address the Zoro could have learned Haki all by himself argument first then go back to Mihawk's Haki discussion.

You're telling me, Zoro knew all three types of Haki, what each type does and what each type is called all by himself? CoO, CoA and CotC, Zoro just figured these three names by himself and that CoA is the best counter for Logia users as seen when he fought Monet and how he commented that he should face her because he knows how to use CoA. Is that what you're telling me? because, I'm a little bit confused now....

Back to Mihawk and his Haki. It's given that Haki is a weapon every notable pirate/fighter must know about and how to use. Haki is a person's will, and how strong is that will. People like Mihawk who stand at the top have the highest will power of all, otherwise, they would not be at the top at the first place. Him having a weak Haki would not make sense at all story wise and logic wise, not fanboysim wise. Every single top tier will have incredible Haki, that's given already.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Nov 30, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Okay let me address the Zoro could have learned Haki all by himself argument first then go back to Mihawk's Haki discussion.
> 
> You're telling me, Zoro knew all three types of Haki, what each type does and what each type is called all by himself? CoO, CoA and CotC, Zoro just figured these three names by himself and that CoA is the best counter for Logia users as seen when he fought Monet and how he commented that he should face her because he knows how to use CoA. Is that what you're telling me? because, I'm a little bit confused now....
> 
> Back to Mihawk and his Haki. It's given that Haki is a weapon every notable pirate/fighter must know about and how to use. Haki is a person's will, and how strong is that will. People like Mihawk who stand at the top have the highest will power of all, otherwise, they would not be at the top at the first place. Him having a weak Haki would not make sense at all story wise and logic wise, not fanboysim wise. Every single top tier will have incredible Haki, that's given already.



Read my arguments that was referring to what speculation is and why it cannot be used in a debate to objectively prove something.

Nope, I am not sure if you read my arguments properly, but I can for sure tell you that this is a strawman rhetoric. Never have I claimed that Zoro can use all three types of haki because he learned it by himself prior to the time skip, at the end of the arc. All I am addressing is the issue of it being a form of speculation. It is speculation that Mihawk taught Zoro haki, as there is no evidence, either from Oda, or in the manga, supporting of the theory that Mihawk taught Zoro how to use Haki. It may be true, but, alas, there is no character statement or author statement that confirms the statement about Zoro learning haki from mihawk, as a fact. Either you concede, or bring me evidence suggesting otherwise.

Your argument about Mihawk automatically having Haki due to most top tiers having haki is what we call a fallacy composition; we see where this fallacy stems from, mostly when a poster reasons from the characteristics of individual members of a class (category) to a conclusion regarding the characteristics of the entire class or group (taken as a whole). More formally, the "reasoning" would look something like this. Mihawk has characteristics of fighter A, B, C, etc.
Therefore,  Mihawk has the same absolute characteristics as A, B, C, etc.
This line of reasoning is fallacious because the mere fact that individuals have certain characteristics does not, in itself, guarantee that the class (taken as a whole) has those characteristics. Moreover, It's not a requisite for pirates to be knowledgeable of Haki in order to survive. Mihawk is an exceptional swordsman, but just because other strong fighters have Haki does not imply that he also has Haki... this comes back to the fallacy of composition. It was also never stated that you must have haki in order to survive. Yes, haki gives you some strength, but it does not mean that a haki fighter can defeat mihawk. This is outright wrong... Yes, you're right about haki being a person's will, and how ambitious a person is, but just because you're ambitious doesn't mean that you automatically have Haki... slippery slope argument in play here... mihawk being at the top doesn't generally imply that he has haki, it could just mean that his swordman ship is simply too exceptional and that he is just that powerful... but anyways, to address the issue, I believe that he has haki for the reasons you mentioned, but some of the reasons weren't really good examples that proved that he has haki, but nevertheless, I still believe he has haki, but it's still speculation. A theory... an opinion et cetera.


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 30, 2013)

> Never have I claimed that Zoro can use all three types of haki because he learned it by himself prior to the time skip, at the end of the arc. All I am addressing is the issue of it being a form of speculation. It is speculation that Mihawk taught Zoro haki, as there is no evidence, either from Oda, or in the manga, supporting of the theory that Mihawk taught Zoro how to use Haki. It may be true, but, alas, there is no character statement or author statement that confirms the statement about Zoro learning haki from mihawk, as a fact. Either you concede, or bring me evidence suggesting otherwise.



I never said you claimed Zoro being able to use all three types of Haki. What I simply said was, you think Zoro knew all three types of Haki? As in their names? He knows what King's Haki  is seeing when Luffy dropped the 50k soldiers back in FI, he doesn't just know it's a willpower, he knows the official name that everyone uses. Are you going to tell me Zoro learned Haki all by himself, then he was like... Hey Hawkeye, let me show you this thing I just invented, he proceeds to use CoA then he goes like cool huh? then Mihawk is like, that's CoA you idiot, you did not invent that, more or less.

You seriously think that's how it happened? Zoro just magically taught himself Haki, and all the proper names that the rest of the world uses. Just because Oda has not stated or shown us Mihawk teaching Zoro about Haki just like how Rayleigh did does not mean he did not teach him. He showed us Rayleigh teaching Luffy, he did not think that there would be people doubting Mihawk doing the same thing, I can't even believe you're discussing this. 

And nope, it's not a fallacy of composition. It's almost a fact that every top tier is going to have Haki. That's the point of top tiers fighting each other, which one has the superior Haki (Will). Just because it wasn't confirmed by Oda doesn't mean it's not true at all, Oda does leave things for us the readers to figure out.


----------



## Unclear Justice (Nov 30, 2013)

Mirage wrote a lot of right things about fallacies and assumptions here and Lawliet did argue against these things as good as possible, but my question is:

Why are you two discussing this in the first place? 

I mean, Mihawk wouldn?t try to tank Law?s slashes if he can?t (full intel), the Buggy scene can easily be explained by Mihawk not using Haki in this instance and since both of you seem to have a similar opinion on this matter I don?t see the purpose of this discussion. If it?s to show that nothing is factual than let me tell you that this matter cannot be resolved with facts alone and at some point you have to make an assumption either way in order to come to an opinion here.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Nov 30, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I never said you claimed Zoro being able to use all three types of Haki. What I simply said was, you think Zoro knew all three types of Haki? As in their names? He knows what King's Haki  is seeing when Luffy dropped the 50k soldiers back in FI, he doesn't just know it's a willpower, he knows the official name that everyone uses. Are you going to tell me Zoro learned Haki all by himself, then he was like... Hey Hawkeye, let me show you this thing I just invented, he proceeds to use CoA then he goes like cool huh? then Mihawk is like, that's CoA you idiot, you did not invent that, more or less.
> 
> You seriously think that's how it happened? Zoro just magically taught himself Haki, and all the proper names that the rest of the world uses. Just because Oda has not stated or shown us Mihawk teaching Zoro about Haki just like how Rayleigh did does not mean he did not teach him. He showed us Rayleigh teaching Luffy, he did not think that there would be people doubting Mihawk doing the same thing, I can't even believe you're discussing this.
> 
> And nope, it's not a fallacy of composition. It's almost a fact that every top tier is going to have Haki. That's the point of top tiers fighting each other, which one has the superior Haki (Will). Just because it wasn't confirmed by Oda doesn't mean it's not true at all, Oda does leave things for us the readers to figure out.



Again, I still cannot fathom how you came to the conclusion of Zoro learning all three types of haki by himself based on my argument which you think I said. My post is pretty simple and explains everything you need to know in clear enough detail. This is yet again another strawman from you. You keep assuming that I am saying things which you're fabricating yourself, almost as though it's a distorted version of my argument, but not entirely the same as what I said. I hope you get the gist of speculation and understand that you cannot claim a character has learned Haki from another character without any character statement or any sort of manga proof. Your example is just too off topic that I will leave it at that. Point is, there is an absence of evidence suggesting that Zoro learned Haki from Mihawk, and although it's highly likely that he did, it still remains speculation. A theory. Your hypothesis. Do understand this instead of twisting my words.

This is baffling. I DON'T think it's how Zoro learned haki, but it may be one of the reasons, the other being Mihawk teaching him haki, which is more sound and has more logic to it, but nevertheless, it still remains speculation. We must be ambiguous rather than choosing one possible reasons as to how Zoro learned Haki. I am not saying that he learned Haki by himself, but all I am saying is that it may be true, until proven otherwise, same as the mihawk argument, it follows the same logic. This argument is way too easy to refute, your argument lacks substance and coherence; You cannot juxtapose the idea of Mihawk teaching Zoro haki, and rayleigh teaching Luffy haki in pursuance on disproving my argument about Mihawk teaching Zoro haki as speculation because we actually have evidence of rayleigh teaching Luffy the essence of Haki, whereas, for Mihawk and Zoro's case, there is absolutely no evidence concerning Mihawk -The teacher- teaching Zoro Haki, thus making your argument of thereof completely moot. You must understand what speculation means, and what it is used in a debate. No matter how likely a theory may sound, it will only remain speculation because there actually isn't any conventional method to debating when accepting a theory as a fact. If there is any sort of evidence suggesting that Mihawk taught Zoro haki, then it isn't speculation anymore, but a fact. Granted that there is no evidence supporting of the theory that Mihawk taught Zoro haki, but it sounds too plausible, it will always remain speculation. Your personal belief.

It is a fallacy of composition because you're assuming that since another top tier has haki, mihawk automatically has haki based of that instance, alone. You need to take account on the use of haki, which is too render Devil fruit user's body tangible and susceptible to attacks. We don't know if Mihawk fought a DF user, so there is that. Just because most top tiers have haki does not imply that Mihawk will also have haki. Bring evidence of Mihawk using haki, then I will believe you. I am not saying he doesn't have haki (Again, I am just being ambiguous and discerning the best option possible without omitting any plausibility on Mihawk having haki), I believe that he does, but there is not proof to support of the statement which you've made several times about Mihawk having Haki. Just because it wasn't confirmed by Oda doesn't mean that it's not true, but that's the definition of speculation! When something isn't proven, it's speculation! Speculation doesn't imply that it's wrong, it just means that it's still open for investigation, until it's proven wrong, or right! In your case, it's neither the latter or former.


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 30, 2013)

--Yeah I get what you're saying, I really do. It's all speculation since we lack the evidence to prove it, but like I said, few things don't have to be outright stated by the author in an interview nor in the Manga itself. Some things are just left for the readers to interpret. Mihawk possessing Haki will probably be proven in the future once we see him fighting seriously, but him teaching Zoro Haki will always be left to the readers by Oda to figure out. It's probably not going to be confirmed since it's that obvious unless Zoro has one of those moments where he's facing an opponent and he goes like, I'm grateful for that man (Hawkeye) for teaching me Haki which made it possible for me to even grow stronger.

--Are we going to have one of those Zoro moment, and is he going to outright give the credit to Mihawk for learning Haki? Maybe, we'll never really know. But if it doesn't happen, probably because Oda thinks it's not an issue since it's a little bit too obvious that it was indeed Mihawk who taught him Zoro.

--Again, I'm not putting words in your mouth or anything, but you said and I quote 





> zoro could have learned Haki himself, so there really is no say as to making speculative claims like he taught zoro haki.



What I'm trying to say is. It's almost impossible for Zoro to learn the and I one more time quote 





> the essence of Haki


 all by himself.

Why? because time skip Zoro knows the universal titles of all three types of Haki, which means someone at least taught him the names and what each one does since he showed knowledge about CoA being the perfect counter against Logias. 

-- Again, I know that you're saying it's all speculation and all that unless stated otherwise. I somewhat I agree with that, but like I said before.. Some things are left for the readers to interpret because they're not that hard to figure out.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Nov 30, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> --Yeah I get what you're saying, I really do. It's all speculation since we lack the evidence to prove it, but like I said, few things don't have to be outright stated by the author in an interview nor in the Manga itself. Some things are just left for the readers to interpret. Mihawk possessing Haki will probably be proven in the future once we see him fighting seriously, but him teaching Zoro Haki will always be left to the readers by Oda to figure out. It's probably not going to be confirmed since it's that obvious unless Zoro has one of those moments where he's facing an opponent and he goes like, I'm grateful for that man (Hawkeye) for teaching me Haki which made it possible for me to even grow stronger.
> 
> --Are we going to have one of those Zoro moment, and is he going to outright give the credit to Mihawk for learning Haki? Maybe, we'll never really know. But if it doesn't happen, probably because Oda thinks it's not an issue since it's a little bit too obvious that it was indeed Mihawk who taught him Zoro.
> 
> ...



Yes, they do. You can't claim things and expect them to be taken as the truth, and generally go with the flow and act as if you've proven something without actually bringing evidence for your statement in order to objectively state a fact. Fact need to be proven. Speculation, however, don't need to be proven because they're our opinions that totally stand out from a fact. It is Our belief. Our hypothesis that has absolutely no correlation with our view  of a fact. It's true that we can interpret things as the truth, but that's kind of rare. Only when the truth isn't far off, or when it's quite evident that a theory is already going to happen, even without a fact supporting the theory, it will always remain speculation, until proven otherwise. That's how facts have been used in debates and i will always remain the same. Give or take. It's true that Mihawk will most likely be seen using Haki, but as of late, it's viewed as speculation. We know that he didn't have haki in the pre time skip, so it kind of leaves you wondering how he could have taught Zoro haki when he hasn't displayed any use of haki prior to him training Zoro. I'm not implying that IT WILL not happen, but you can't claim that IT'S a fact until ODA proves Mihawk can use haki, or that he was the one whom taught Zoro haki. Moreover, my argument of which I claimed Zoro might have learned Haki himself is also speculation, but if you believe that it's highly unlikely, it's okay, since I am not saying that him learning haki by himself is a fact.


Okay, that's fine. If you believe that It's almost impossible for Zoro to learn haki by himself, then that is your problem, and I respect your opinion. Nevertheless, I too concur with you, but it's still an option, until Oda proves that Mihawk taught him haki, no matter how plausible the latter sounds, it is speculation.

Time skip Zoro might be aware of the three types of Haki, but it doesn't mean that someone must have taught it to him... He might of known one of them in the pre time skip, but didn't really have any occasions to outright state that something reminisces him of a certain type of haki. Well, oda didn't put enough emphasis on haki in the pre time skip, there's that.

Well I understand why you believe mihawk taught Zoro haki, and it seems really plausible because of the amount of logic following that theory, but at best, even if you believe that it's the truth, it will always remain speculation, until proven otherwise. I believe that Mihawk did teach Zoro haki, but I just can quite seem to understand why he wasn't able to slash buggy at marine ford.


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 30, 2013)

I'll just reply to your last question since we more or less agree in general.



> but I just can quite seem to understand why he wasn't able to slash buggy at marine ford.



Simply because he wasn't using Haki in his attacks. Why would someone like Mihawk not use Haki in his attacks? Same reason why Kizaru didn't use Haki when he kicked Luffy (this is debatable), but Luffy never commented on how painful it is like every single time he got hit by a Haki user. 

And then I have this quote from Mihawk " It will be more than adequate after all you wouldn't kill a fly with a cannon would you?".. This gives us a glimpse of Mihawk's character which is.. He does not fight seriously or use his best attacks unless he has to, or should I say unless he's facing a strong/worthy opponent. He did not use Haki against Luffy because normal sword attacks are adequate.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Nov 30, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I'll just reply to your last question since we more or less agree in general.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But if we view Mihawk's side and juxtapose it to Buggy's side, we see that both of them are in two different sides to which are opposing each other. Buggy is kind of neutral, but he agreed to side with Whitebeard, thus meaning that he's viewed as an enemy in the view of the marine's, which Mihawk has allied himself with. If you follow that logic, Mihawk is suppose to treat Buggy akin to how he treated the pirates that have attacked him (Slash them), and show no sign of Bias no matter who the opponent he is facing. There are times when a character doesn't use  haki, and I am not just talking about CoA, but CoO, too. For example, when crocodile attacked Akainu, the latter should have had enough time to predict crocodile's attack, and dodge the attack, and keep in mind that he didn't let crocodile hit him on purpose because he gave crocodile the benefit of the doubt to being able to injure his logia body, since in the manga panel in which crocodile attacked Akaiunu, there was a question mark on Akainu's part, emphasizing that he was caught off guard.

Kizaru not injuring Luffy was an inconsistency. There are many instances in the manga where kizaru could have easily killed Luffy, like that time luffy was trying to open ace's handcuffs with the key mr.3 fabricated for him. Kizaru aims for the key instead of Luffy's gigantic head that was a much easier target than the key itself 

Mihawk didn't need to use haki, though... his slashes alone were enough to kill luffy, mind you. He wasn't going all out against Luffy as seen when Luffy was dodging all of his attacks... Mihawk had no intent to kill, and that was obvious as hell. Still, it leaves me with a quandary that Mihawk couldn't injure Buggy. All it would have taken was a simply slash...


----------



## Lawliet (Nov 30, 2013)

Well, I wouldn't kill my friend's/ex-rival's best friend. Let's just leave it that way lol and it was a little bit obvious that Oda was using a little bit of humor in there. Imagine if Buggy had been a normal character, no devil fruit powers. He would be dead with what, 30 pieces? It was all humor


----------



## Meigo (Nov 30, 2013)

The warlords rapestomp.

Bonney, Urouge, Capone, Apoo are basically non factors. Mihawk  can probably solo this.


----------



## Gervin (Dec 1, 2013)

Ok, let's get this out of the way right off the bat.  I hate Dracule Mihawk, so much so that he may very well be my least favorite OP character.  Every attempt from his fanbase to bolster his limited feats with hyperbole and extrapolation sickens me.  Having said that, there is no question that the dude solos the pre-skip supernovas with low to mid difficulty.  

Hell, given the limited feats of all post-skip supernovas, I would probably have Hancock, Dofla and Croc each soloing if it weren't for the existence of Law.


----------



## GIORNO (Dec 1, 2013)

Yeah... SN die a horrible death. Fuck 7... They only need Mihawk, DD and Boa, the other 4 can take a little snooze.


----------

