# Sephiroth vs Raditz



## Coyote A (Aug 25, 2013)

End of AC Sephiroth vs Raditz

Distance: 10m

Who wins?


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2013)

Raditz can one shot, and AFAIK their speed is similar. Unless sephiroth has something that allows him to beat someone who's planet level, I don't see him taking this.


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## Coyote A (Aug 25, 2013)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> Raditz can one shot, and AFAIK their speed is similar. Unless sephiroth has something that allows him to beat someone who's planet level, I don't see him taking this.


Sephiroth is much faster in AC.

End of AC Cloud casually outran the lightning bolts that kadaj threw at him, putting him over mach 440.
Raditz is only mach 41-mach 88.

Seph also has a few haxes. Can't he just soul-fuck or mind-fuck him?


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## Imagine (Aug 25, 2013)

Flight + Moon buster.


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## Coyote A (Aug 25, 2013)

Imagine said:


> Flight + Moon buster.


Even Sephiroth has flight in AC. Moreover, he's faster... lot faster


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## Velocity (Aug 25, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Even Sephiroth has flight in AC. Moreover, he's faster... lot faster



Not sure if speed matters much when your opponent has such a significant advantage in firepower. I do give Sephiroth bonus points for having a much better fashion sense, though.


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## Coyote A (Aug 25, 2013)

Velocity said:


> Not sure if speed matters much when your opponent has such a significant advantage in firepower. I do give Sephiroth bonus points for having a much better fashion sense, though.


Heh, yeah. But firepower doesn't really matter much when Seph has the necessary hax like soul/mind-rape to take out Raditz.

Going by their profiles, Seph's also got ZJ level striking strength with limitbreaks while Raditz is only EJ level. So his physical strikes should be able to get past Raditz's durability I guess


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 25, 2013)

Raditz stomps


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## shade0180 (Aug 25, 2013)

Raditz one-shot.


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## Fenrir (Aug 25, 2013)

Doubt it even makes a difference, but just throwing that out there.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 25, 2013)

Alpha~13 said:


> Doubt it even makes a difference, but just throwing that out there.



It doesn't change anything.

Faster than I thought it'd be though.


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## lokoxDZz (Aug 25, 2013)

Sephiroth can be powerscaled by this  Bahamut  Fury calc?


Just asking,raditz one shots anyway


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 25, 2013)

Fucking Zack fresh off just becoming a Soldier 1st was able to dodge this shit.

And Sephiroth is more powerful than Bahamut Fury to begin with.

Hell, you could argue Genesis is given Angeal giving him priority while he left Bahamut to Zack.

There's a bunch of different feats and powerscaling currently ignored for VII, I just gradually bring it up given how unpopular fuckers like Sephiroth are.

That, and I don't particularly enjoy the fucker being that strong myself.  Ah well, bumps up other fuckers I do like anyway.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 25, 2013)

what kind of speed is that for the powerscaled characters ?


reactions/combat or movement ? if movement - for what range ?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 25, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> what kind of speed is that for the powerscaled characters ?
> 
> 
> reactions/combat or movement ? if movement - for what range ?



Short range movement, like over the span of a couple dozen meters at most.

Summons like Bahamut or the Weapons can sustain it for a long ass while though.

Reaction/combat is a given.


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## Fenrir (Aug 25, 2013)

Welp, turns out Bahamut himself travels much faster than the spikes that he shoots - he crosses the same distance in less than 2 seconds - 50 frames to be precise. So that would make Zack and the main party as well as anyone else worth a fuck (besides Vince and Omega) sub-relativistic anyways.

Sorry, looks like I gave birth to mach 14128 Sephiroth =/


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## Red Angel (Aug 25, 2013)

Raditz annihilates


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## Tom Servo (Aug 25, 2013)

Is this a match of who would win a fight or who is more overrated?


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## Fatal Warrior (Aug 25, 2013)

So, in less than 1,5 years, Sephiroth went from Hypersonic/Skyscrapper+ to Mach 7849+/Continental+...I am assuming his DC isn't scaled.

I'll have problems complaining with HST revisions from now on.


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## lokoxDZz (Aug 25, 2013)

Alpha~13 said:


> Welp, turns out Bahamut himself travels much faster than the spikes that he shoots - he crosses the same distance in less than 2 seconds - 50 frames to be precise. So that would make Zack and the main party as well as anyone else worth a fuck (besides Vince and Omega) sub-relativistic anyways.
> 
> Sorry, looks like I gave birth to mach 14128 Sephiroth =/



You,you monster!


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## Unlosing Ranger (Aug 25, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Fucking Zack fresh off just becoming a Soldier 1st was able to dodge this shit.
> 
> And Sephiroth is more powerful than Bahamut Fury to begin with.
> 
> ...



Damn sissy-kun.
Well I can always pit an Executor against him to spite until he becomes MFTL eventually 


Alpha~13 said:


> Doubt it even makes a difference, but just throwing that out there.



Don't think it fired on zack that quickly.
Big difference in setting (as far as I can tell) and effects of the spikes I would see.
Though that could just be the limitations on the psp for effects like the sparkles.
The bahamut is a large target as well in regards to reacting to his attacks.

It's certainly that fast in the cutscene though, throw several of those things into space( or is it near/ in the highest atmosphere?) and things can get ugly.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 25, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Damn sissy-kun.







> Well I can always pit an Executor against him to spite until he becomes MFTL eventually



Go for it 

And lightspeed isn't happening.  The bahamut summons have the fastest shit in the series sans Omega.



> Don't think it fired on zack that quickly.



Unless otherwise indicated, we have no reason to believe that in the slightest.

Give me something like DC's scorching the atmosphere at top speed shit, then we'll talk.

Until then, its a blood lusted dragon with no inclination towards holding back.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Aug 25, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Give me something like DC's scorching the atmosphere at top speed shit, then we'll talk.
> 
> Until then, its a blood lusted dragon with no inclination towards holding back.



I meant more regarding gravity and atmosphere effecting the speeds given from the moon feat making it less than what it turned out to be.
Still fast.


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## Coyote A (Aug 27, 2013)

If the mach 14000 calc for Zack's speed is accepted, why is there even a debate? Seph should blitz Raditz without a doubt, right?


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## willyvereb (Aug 27, 2013)

Hardly.
Raditz' own reactions/close combat speed should be in the Mach 10,000+ range.
And even if Sephiroth would blitz, what does it do?
Absolutely nothing on somebody with planet level durability.


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## shade0180 (Aug 27, 2013)

> And even if Sephiroth would blitz, what does it do?



Can Sephiroth use the Frog/toad materia?


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## Coyote A (Aug 27, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Hardly.
> Raditz' own reactions/close combat speed should be in the Mach 10,000+ range.
> And even if Sephiroth would blitz, what does it do?
> Absolutely nothing on somebody with planet level durability.


Since when is Raditz mach 10000?
DODGE - Says only mach 89+

Sephiroth can just soul-fuck or mind-fuck him, Raditz never showed any high level of willpower like Cloud. 
Plus he's also got ZJ-class striking strength with limit breaks, while Raditz is just "likely ZJ class". So wouldn't he be able to injure Raditz with his strikes?

Finally, Raditz is not a planet buster. No one before saiyan saga Vegeta is even implied to planet-bust.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 27, 2013)

> Says only mach 89+



The wiki is a nice guideline, but it's not always necessarily 100% correct. It's mostly based on calcs made on this site, after all, and it's not always up to date. 

That being said, the mach 10000 thing is based on Piccolo's blast, and not everyone accepts it, to be honest.


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## willyvereb (Aug 27, 2013)

Raditz reacted to Piccolo's energy blast from some meters.
Said energy blast can travel to the Moon under only a few seconds making it Mach 95,000 to Mach 47,500

Also what kind of soulfuck/mindfuck are you talking about?
Not to mention that Raditz most likely has a pretty mean resistance to it anyways.
The Dragon Balls that can resurrect billions of people at once were unable to kill Nappa.
While Raditz is considerably weaker than Nappa, not so much that he'd fall to a generic soulfuckery technique.

Raditz is also planet level because Piccolo at the start of Part 2 Dragon Ball had already been.
Piccolo's Moon-buster was calced to between several zettatons to some yottatons of yield.
In short between low planet to large planet level.
At that time Piccolo only had the PL of around 300-400.
Raditz had 1200.
So yeah, he has planet level DC and durability.

You're gravely uninformed dude.



HeavyMetalThunder said:


> That being said, the mach 10000 thing is based on Piccolo's blast, and not everyone accepts it, to be honest.


 And yet no one mustered up a sound argument why we shouldn't accept it.
I only heard BS reasonings which if were true we could easily throw out more than half of our calcs.

So yeah, whether one likes it or not, beginning of Saiyan Saga characters have quadruple digit Mach reactions
Potentially quintuple digits if we accept the visuals from DBO.


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## Coyote A (Aug 27, 2013)

1. The blast that Raditz fired at the moon was a different one from the special beam cannon.
2. The speed of the beat is considered an outlier.
Because-
> Raditz couldn't dodge kid Gohan, whose travel speed is slower than Saiyan saga Goku's snakeway speed.
> Krillin takes a few hours to get to Gohan on namek (even after getting Guru's powerup). So does piccolo after fusing with nail.
> Goku's kaioken x4 kamehameha is still not yet into space despite Goku and yajirobe having a long chat in that time. Doesn't seem anywhere close to relativistic.

Seph can use the negative lifestream to soul-fuck Raditz. How's he gonna counter that?
Jenova was able to control Cloud's mind.

Calcs shouldn't be used for piccolo's moonbusting feat because its pretty obvious the writer didn't wanna stress on how he vaped the moon, but rather just wanted to depict him as a moonbuster. Portrayal should always be preferred over calcs.

And I'm quite sure Seph's slashes can hurt Raditz if he uses limit breaks.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 27, 2013)

> > Raditz couldn't dodge kid Gohan, whose travel speed is slower than Saiyan saga Goku's snakeway speed.
> > Krillin takes a few hours to get to Gohan on namek (even after getting Guru's powerup). So does piccolo after fusing with nail.



Those are both instances of travel over a long distance, which isn't necessarily the same as their reaction/combat speed. Happens all the time in fiction.


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## Coyote A (Aug 27, 2013)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> Those are both instances of travel over a long distance, which isn't necessarily the same as their reaction/combat speed. Happens all the time in fiction.


What Gohan did to Raditz wasn't just a reaction.

If Goku were really that fast, he'd cover the entire snakeway in seconds (and I'm sure he can maintain his top speed for that much time)


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## shade0180 (Aug 27, 2013)

Dude. Travel speed =/= reaction. 



Even real world Agree to it.... A Batter who can bat a 100 MPH ball doesn't necessarily  mean he can outrun that ball. 



 .....


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## Coyote A (Aug 27, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Dude. Travel speed =/= reaction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Raditz was unable to react to Gohan who was *travelling* at that speed.

Gohan's speed doesn't count as reaction or "batting speed" like you say since he's moving his entire body and flying a considerable distance.


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## shade0180 (Aug 27, 2013)

Wasn't he surprise/shocked that Gohan Broke the pad(which can survive Nappa's two finger shot) and has a power level stronger than him shown in the gaiger(?) counter. Before he got hit?  Portrayal and Author's Intent. he was so surprise someone stronger than him exist on earth he couldn't react.... He almost peed his pants...


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 27, 2013)

moon level is too much for Sephy-chan too




> Also what kind of soulfuck/mindfuck are you talking about?


also this


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## willyvereb (Aug 27, 2013)

The fact Shenron was unable to kill the Saiyans.
It can resurrect many people at once yet it failed to drag the souls of either of the two incoming Saiyans to the afterlife.
It was explained by Nappa and Vegeta being "too strong" but with the same explanation we can ignore quite a number of resistance feats in fiction.

Albeit I remembered it a bit wrong.
Only the Dragon Balls made by the new Namekian Guru had the power to resurrect everyone at once.
(Albeit it was suggested that Shenron can do that too, if Piccolo were alive.)
Still, Shenron's feats aren't bad by that regard, either.


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## RyokoForTheWin (Aug 27, 2013)

Oh please, Shenron is a pussy power level wise. That means absolutely nothing. He was one shotted by a de-aged King Piccolo with a power level of 260 for fucks sake. No shit he couldn't kill either of the Saiyans.


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## Saitomaru (Aug 27, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> He almost peed his pants...



What pants?


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## shade0180 (Aug 27, 2013)

. pant(ies).


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## shade0180 (Aug 27, 2013)

RyokoForTheWin said:


> Oh please, Shenron is a pussy power level wise. That means absolutely nothing. He was one shotted by a de-aged King Piccolo with a power level of 260 for fucks sake. No shit he couldn't kill either of the Saiyans.



Shenron's power is base on Kami/Piccolo.. As long as Piccolo is weaker than someone he can't kill him.. Buu saga Shenron is Base on Dende which is weaker

 Quite pointless...


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## Fenrir (Aug 27, 2013)

I'm pretty sure the Negative Lifestream is capable of soulfuck.

Although I don't remember the work where it came from, so that's up to Coyote to find it.


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## Nevermind (Aug 27, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Calcs shouldn't be used for piccolo's moonbusting feat because its pretty obvious the writer didn't wanna stress on how he vaped the moon, but rather just wanted to depict him as a moonbuster. Portrayal should always be preferred over calcs.



What the author wanted doesn't matter.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 27, 2013)

does Sephiroth get the negative lifestream as standart equipment or something ?


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## Ulti (Aug 27, 2013)

Can the Negative Lifestream even be used in a neutral universe?


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## Tom Servo (Aug 27, 2013)

Piccolo's blast speed is an outlier unless we're counting Roshi's moonblast speed too in which case characters like Tao and up are also Mach +10,000


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## willyvereb (Aug 27, 2013)

godzillafan430 said:


> Piccolo's blast speed is an outlier  unless we're counting Roshi's moonblast speed too in which case  characters like Tao and up are also Mach +10,000


Even if we wouldn't regard Roshi's Moonbuster as an outlier and we would have means to calc it like we did for Piccolo's...
Why would it matter?
If the result is Mach 10,000 and somebody had sufficiently reacted to this attack then that's what their reaction is.

It's like saying that Naruto characters can't be Mach 40 because you didn't like it.
Who the fuck cares about preferences.

We have a speed feat for Piccolo's energy blasts and people who had reacted to it.
Simple as that.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 27, 2013)

Hunteri Heroci said:


> Can the Negative Lifestream even be used in a neutral universe?



I'd assume it'd have to be specified in the OP.

Its something he controls, but its still technically not standard equipment.

Doesn't mean you can't have him invade with it though.

Also.

Apparently the Crisis Core Ultimania states Bahamut Tremor/SIN was a special case in ACC where it was able to appear in the normal reality.

Other summons drag you into their own dimension to wreck your shit when used, as clearly seen in Crisis Core and previously taken as pure game play in the original game.



This means I get to have fun with Bahamut Zero's cloud parting feat now.

Huh, that's 2 ps1 era games the summon sequences as shown are viable 

All I need now is confirmation that FFVIII's is similar, and I get to have lots and lots of fun


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## Tom Servo (Aug 27, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Even if we wouldn't regard Roshi's Moonbuster as an outlier and we would have means to calc it like we did for Piccolo's...
> Why would it matter?
> If the result is Mach 10,000 and somebody had sufficiently reacted to this attack then that's what their reaction is.
> 
> ...



I'm just saying inconsistencies aside from the mach 10,000 why is that considered official and the Roshi feat isn't?


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## Ulti (Aug 27, 2013)

> I'd assume it'd have to be specified in the OP.
> 
> Its something he controls, but its still technically not standard equipment.



Idk, it seems like something that can only be applied in-verse and not to something that isn't connected to VII.



> Doesn't mean you can't have him invade with it though.



This is true though 



> Other summons drag you into their own dimension to wreck your shit when used, as clearly seen in Crisis Core and previously taken as pure game play in the original game.



Given the animations for some of them, this isn't surprising 



> All I need now is confirmation that FFVIII's is similar, and I get to have lots and lots of fun



Eden


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 27, 2013)

Hunteri Heroci said:


> Idk, it seems like something that can only be applied in-verse and not to something that isn't connected to VII.



How so?  It has its own properties that behaves in a manner some other fictional abilities do.

Moving it to another universe doesn't mean it'd magically stop working.

That'd be like suggesting ki from one universe couldn't effect another fucker as far as I can tell.

If that's not what you're getting at, sorry about the tl;dr 



> Given the animations for some of them, this isn't surprising



Yep, just nice to know that, sans making general inference without being outright stated, you can write off SIN as a legit special case.



> Eden



Not like VIII doesn't already have universal bullshit


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## shade0180 (Aug 27, 2013)

godzillafan430 said:


> I'm just saying inconsistencies aside from the mach 10,000 why is that considered official and the Roshi feat isn't?



Because Roshi is weaker than King Piccolo. King Piccolo Being stronger than Roshi couldn't even Bust a whole island/City without draining his power to the Ground....

Probably one of the reason. Then there's the part during the red ribbon army, he thought he couldn't beat them alone and attacked the army as a group with Yamcha and rest... Which Goku soloed later on..


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## lokoxDZz (Aug 27, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I'd assume it'd have to be specified in the OP.
> 
> Its something he controls, but its still technically not standard equipment.
> 
> ...




You're saying that FF VIII can become more powerfull,for real?


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## shade0180 (Aug 27, 2013)

Err, Main group getting stronger wouldn't really help their ranking FF8 is like the 3rd/4th strongest verse in FF series.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 27, 2013)

lokoxDZz said:


> You're saying that FF VIII can become more powerfull,for real?



Assuming GF's exist in a similar manner to the one's in FFVII?

You have Eden fucking up the larger part of a galaxy.

GF's in theory could be very fucking potent/scary.


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## lokoxDZz (Aug 27, 2013)

2013 year of final fantasy powerup 

But i doubt it tough.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 27, 2013)

Don't know about that, given what happens in the scripted event between Seifer and Odin.

You could easily argue similar for FFVIII in regards to VII without it being outright stated going off instances like that relevant to the plot.


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## Solar (Aug 27, 2013)

lokoxDZz said:


> 2013 year of final fantasy powerup
> 
> But i doubt it tough.



You must've missed last year's Final Fantasy power-ups.


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## lokoxDZz (Aug 27, 2013)

Bernkastel said:


> You must've missed last year's Final Fantasy power-ups.



I kinda remember them actually,but this year suddely sephiroth became sub-relativst and others people became crazy powerfull.

But ohwell


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## willyvereb (Aug 27, 2013)

Bernkastel said:


> You must've missed last year's Final Fantasy power-ups.


That's why we're getting a repetition of it.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 27, 2013)

Not my fault I gradually remember shit as I go and construct a more complete picture of various feats and how they link together


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 27, 2013)

chaos is describing me with TF, specifically the Unicron Trilogy 

dat retcon


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## Fenrir (Aug 27, 2013)

Right now the only FF verse that isn't incredibly powerful is XII. Maybe if someone made even a fraction of their invisible fucks for that game visible then maybe it wouldn't be as useless compared to everyone else


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## Tom Servo (Aug 27, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Because Roshi is weaker than King Piccolo. King Piccolo Being stronger than Roshi couldn't even Bust a whole island/City without draining his power to the Ground....
> 
> Probably one of the reason. Then there's the part during the red ribbon army, he thought he couldn't beat them alone and attacked the army as a group with Yamcha and rest... Which Goku soloed later on..



You could make the excuse that it was condensed AoE, after all we don't think android saga characters are island level+ just because thats what they blew up 

then there's this detail


At any rate I was mostly referring to the speed aspect portion of it, though I have to admit I'm on the side of that feat being an outlier since nearly every speed feat not only after that (mostly namek and even the exact same saga) is much lower 

-Goku and Yajirobe having an entire conversation while his KH carries Vegeta into the sky 
-the whole being late to save his friends while rushing through snake way
-Being reassured that his friends and Frieza were nearby so he could make it in time
-Namek saga characters being impressed by speed feats such as crossing the planet in minutes to even hours.
etc.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 27, 2013)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> chaos is describing me with TF, specifically the Unicron Trilogy
> 
> dat retcon



More or less CD.

Dat retcon indeed.



Alpha~13 said:


> Right now the only FF verse that isn't incredibly powerful is XII. Maybe if someone made even a fraction of their invisible fucks for that game visible then maybe it wouldn't be as useless compared to everyone else



Well, I know jackshit about XII, but apparently the shattered suncryst or however the fuck it's spelled possessed enough magical power to levitate some massive flying fortress for a fuckton of time.

That, and I've heard shit about some race called the occuria having some country level shit, and the main villain essentially fuses with one at the end from what I read 

You'd need to ask Ulti if any of that is right though.  Think he's played.


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## shade0180 (Aug 27, 2013)

That limitless power statement is Bullshit. Since we have seen his power got drained multiple times. It could probably mean that his potential is limitless rather than his current power. Which get stronger over short periods of time. Which is quite true in DB since More training = More power. 



> -Goku and Yajirobe having an entire conversation while his KH carries Vegeta into the sky


Most of the time talking is free action.  You can have a whole page of conversation without anyone moving or you can have 1 sentence and 24 hrs have passed. You can even have people that can't breath underwater talking or someone with something stuffed in their mouth and can still talk unless the plot needed them to be portrayed as being gag or keep silent 



> Being reassured that Frieza and his friends were nearby so he could make it in time
> 
> Namek saga characters being impressed by speed feats such as crossing the planet in minutes to even hours.
> etc.



Traveling feats.  not reaction


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## Tom Servo (Aug 27, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> That limitless power statement is Bullshit. Since we have seen his power got drained multiple times. It could probably mean that his potential is limitless rather than his current power. Which get stronger over short periods of time. Which is quite true in DB since More training = More power.



I was actually referring to him stating he can destroy the world if he wanted to. Which is backed up by Roshi's feat and later Piccolo Junior's moonbusting feat (which was calced at being planet level)


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 27, 2013)

Context suggests Daimao was talking about over time, given his threat to annihilate 1 city per year, which in a broad sense could be interpreted to mean "the world"


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## Toriko (Aug 27, 2013)

I will say that mach 10,000 raditz is bs, not for the reasons that guy is giving though.


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## Tom Servo (Aug 27, 2013)

Toriko said:


> I will say that mach 10,000 raditz is bs, not for the reasons that guy is giving though.



thank you (?)


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## AngryHeretic (Aug 27, 2013)

Going off the topic of the validity of Raditz's speed/power feats for a moment... are we actually taking that Bahamut nuke calc seriously? One would assume that an in-fight move like that would be treated the same way as Sephiroth's supernova: non-canon. Seeing as, y'know, the moon and Midgar are still in one piece after the battle.

Any summon/eidolon feats outside of what that Bahamut in AC pulled off (and based off gameplay) are really hard to argue as actually representing what they can do. Still, if those speed feats for Cloud and Sephy are legit... Ah well it's still an issue of durability then. Too bad the mindfuck and soulfuck feats people keep bringing up apply only to other Jenova-cell/Geostigma carriers and wouldn't do jack shit against an uninfected Saiyan.

Still haven't made my mind, but I'm inclined to say Raditz's moon-busting AOE's take this.


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## Regicide (Aug 27, 2013)

I thought that was covered by the whole alternate dimension shit?


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## shade0180 (Aug 27, 2013)

AngryHeretic said:


> Going off the topic of the validity of Raditz's speed/power feats for a moment... are we actually taking that Bahamut nuke calc seriously? One would assume that an in-fight move like that would be treated the same way as Sephiroth's supernova: non-canon. Seeing as, y'know, the moon and Midgar are still in one piece after the battle.
> 
> Any summon/eidolon feats outside of what that Bahamut in AC pulled off (and based off gameplay) are really hard to argue as actually representing what they can do. Still, if those speed feats for Cloud and Sephy are legit... Ah well it's still an issue of durability then. Too bad the mindfuck and soulfuck feats people keep bringing up apply only to other Jenova-cell/Geostigma carriers and wouldn't do jack shit against an uninfected Saiyan.
> 
> Still haven't made my mind, but I'm inclined to say Raditz's moon-busting AOE's take this.





ChaosTheory123 said:


> Other summons *drag you into their own dimension* to wreck your shit when used, as clearly seen in Crisis Core and previously taken as pure game play in the original game.



Explanation for places not getting destroyed was provided on the page before.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 27, 2013)

Regicide said:


> I thought that was covered by the whole alternate dimension shit?



Fuckers don't like to take the minimal time it takes to read a few posts.

I could also go into a whole bunch of shit on why using the feat regardless of it being "non-canon" or some shit is irrelevant, but I actually get to save my breathe for once.

And Sephiroth's is disregarded just for the sheer stupidity of someone who can already fuck up a solar system needing to summon a fucking meteor to absorb planet levels worth of energy by causing a big ass wound in the first place.

As in, its below his weight class to start with.


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## SHM (Aug 27, 2013)

AngryHeretic said:


> Too bad the mindfuck and soulfuck feats people keep bringing up apply only to other Jenova-cell/Geostigma carriers and wouldn't do jack shit against an uninfected Saiyan.



The soul/mind-fuck was brought up because of the Negative-Lifestream. If Sephiroth is allowed to use it in this battle, and is successful in hitting Raditz with it, the Saiyan would become comatose(he would be overflowed with millions and millions of thoughts and memories, just like anyone else who falls in the Lifestream) and his physical body would be instantly infected with Geostigma.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Aug 27, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Fuckers don't like to take the minimal time it takes to read a few posts.
> 
> I could also go into a whole bunch of shit on why using the feat regardless of it being "non-canon" or some shit is irrelevant, but I actually get to save my breathe for once.
> 
> ...



[YOUTUBE]aldmGmAYSW0[/YOUTUBE]
The original version


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## AgentAAA (Aug 28, 2013)

wait, and I'm prepared for the negs it gives, but... we're okay with piccolo's planet bust being an outlier because it's not close to the speed the characters show later in DB, but we're alright with a very similar feat in FF7 despite it having even less showings of that sort of speed? I don't recall nearly the same amount of precedent for such movement speed that even DB has, so I'd call outlier on that one.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 28, 2013)

AgentAAA said:


> wait, and I'm prepared for the negs it gives, but... we're okay with piccolo's planet bust being an outlier because it's not close to the speed the characters show later in DB, but we're alright with a very similar feat in FF7 despite it having even less showings of that sort of speed? I don't recall nearly the same amount of precedent for such movement speed that even DB has, so I'd call outlier on that one.



Games first of all get very few cutscenes in them to start with.

Much like a Live TV show, you're probably lucky to end up with a handful (or any for that matter).

And its replicated by both Fury and Zero.

And greater speeds are showcased by Omega in simulation in Dirge of Cerebus.

Then you just have a slew of different feats in the triple digits from all sorts of comers to work with in the first game alone.

And I'm not even throwing my hat into the ring on the DB speed, I honestly don't give a shit either way at this point.


----------



## shade0180 (Aug 28, 2013)

SHM said:


> The soul/mind-fuck was brought up because of the Negative-Lifestream. If Sephiroth is allowed to use it in this battle, and is successful in hitting Raditz with it, the Saiyan would become comatose(he would be overflowed with millions and millions of thoughts and memories, just like anyone else who falls in the Lifestream) and his physical body would be instantly infected with Geostigma.



Because DBZ character has no soul/mind attack resistance, ... 
Babidi/Chiaotzu can Attack mind and they fail on doing it on the Stronger Z fighter (Vegita allowed Babidi to control him and just outright ignore it after he got what he wants) or enemies that are currently stronger than the Z fighters...  Chiaotzu has shown it during the 22nd Budokai When Goku was fighting Tien. and he couldn't do it to Nappa when he tried it during the Saiyan Saga. If I remember that part correctly.


Shenron Also has ability to mass kill/revive and he fail to kill those that are stronger than him and he can control souls as shown when he pulled Krillin's soul from planet Namek to Earth during the Frieza Saga Arc.


----------



## AgentAAA (Aug 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Games first of all get very few cutscenes in them to start with.
> 
> Much like a Live TV show, you're probably lucky to end up with a handful (or any for that matter).
> 
> ...



but the jump from triple digits to quadruple's a pretty huge one, and if I recall, there's a bunch of low-ends to consider in the series too, such as Cloud's still utilizing a motorcycle to get around and fight on in AC. And fewer cutscenes shouldn't allow more outliers to go through. FF7's got a lot of places where their movement speed is low-ended equally, and their having less overall screentime shouldn't allow them more leeway out of nowhere compared to DB. 
Also, why are people saying mach 10,000 raditz? I might just be somewhat behind here, but I thought that the speed was calced around mach 2 or 3,000? or am I just misunderstanding exaggeration in the thread.


----------



## shade0180 (Aug 28, 2013)

You are using another Travel Speed example.  The 4 digit mach would be their reaction.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 28, 2013)

AgentAAA said:


> but the jump from triple digits to quadruple's a pretty huge one, and if I recall, there's a bunch of low-ends to consider in the series too, such as Cloud's still utilizing a motorcycle to get around and fight on in AC.



Fiction is riddled with low end feats.  Want to nitpick and have a true mean?

You end up with city block level skyfathers and street level ninja.

And don't bother mentioning the bike shit when short range speed in bursts is often portrayed as far faster in fiction.

And don't even get started on appealing to bullets.  Guns and such fun shit are overrated as fuck in most fiction in general.  If you bother to go there, I can show you why.

And no, its not really all that large a jump.  Once speed hits the tier, how low or high above the others isn't particularly relevant.

Kind of like why marvel and DC gets to have FTL speed feats all over the place (only a few dozen times it to billions of times it for example) and gets to call them consistent showings.



> And fewer cutscenes shouldn't allow more outliers to go through.



It's not an outlier chuckles.  Cutscenes are what we derive most speed feats from.  These are the feats presented in them more often than not in the series.

Its the same across all other fictions.

Once more, I could sample every single instance of speed in any given fiction, and you will end up with a bunch of low end superhuman garbage on average more often than not.



> FF7's got a lot of places where their movement speed is low-ended equally, and their having less overall screentime shouldn't allow them more leeway out of nowhere compared to DB.



Long distance movement isn't relevant.  And having less screen time isn't the issue.  More so budget or memory space in regards to live action TV shows or games.

And I'm not giving them anymore leeway than I would another series.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Aug 28, 2013)

AgentAAA said:


> but the jump from triple digits to quadruple's a pretty huge one, and if I recall, there's a bunch of low-ends to consider in the series too, such as Cloud's still utilizing a motorcycle to get around and fight on in AC. And fewer cutscenes shouldn't allow more outliers to go through. FF7's got a lot of places where their movement speed is low-ended equally, and their having less overall screentime shouldn't allow them more leeway out of nowhere compared to DB.
> Also, why are people saying mach 10,000 raditz? I might just be somewhat behind here, but I thought that the speed was calced around mach 2 or 3,000? or am I just misunderstanding exaggeration in the thread.



But then you get instances of Cloud, on the very same bike dozens of meters away, perceiving enemies moving in slow motion while throwing a sword like a boomerang to kill them before they can hit a target less than 2 feet away.  

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZVj313yvdM[/YOUTUBE]

Additionally, Dante (from Devil May Cry) has been shown to flat out run at hypersonic speed and still utilizes a motorcycle for travel. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlHY6xRpktk[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTmv7_FqiC0[/YOUTUBE]

It's called combat movement vs travel speed.  These fuckers can travel at this speed in limited bursts and react to attacks of the same corresponding speed.

Why doesn't Cloud just jump everywhere as it would be more effective and faster than by traveling by vehicle since he can jump hundreds of feet into the air?  Same question applies, but the answer is still the same.  It's all about burst movement.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 28, 2013)

To be more to the point?

The premise of calling outlier on most of anything relies entirely upon subjective interpretation of portrayal and if we were to truly adopt a style of debate where we really did take the statistical mean in each series in terms of showing... we'd end up with dog piss fictional character stats across the board.

Because what we call low end outliers makes up the bulk of all feats we see on screen/panel/etc


----------



## U mad bro (Aug 28, 2013)

That is because the feats portrayed in a story is not meant for these type of conversation. The main purpose is for the fans to enjoy the story. Almost no fictional series is consistent. Supes used to get fucked by rockets on the regular. So all in all you may as well stop debating if you wanna look at story that way.

Though some series abilities are suspect. I would put ftl for Sailormoon for example under skepticism for series representation. They were peak human 98% of the time at best physically outside of magical abilities.You could probably swing it to 99% of the time. Fans says otherwise though I guess.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 28, 2013)

I'm well aware.

Which is why communally founded precedents somewhat alleviate that.

Still makes it impossible to ever call what we do concrete, but its all for shits and giggles anyway


----------



## U mad bro (Aug 28, 2013)

As long as the writers and authors don't give a darn about consistency this will never be accurate. More about opinion and who can prove their side more. Ninjas going from barely being considered bullet timers to hitting re entry speeds is a good example of that fact.


----------



## AgentAAA (Aug 28, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> You are using another Travel Speed example.  The 4 digit mach would be their reaction.



oh, yes, I'm aware, It's just the fact that when similar things are brought up for the DB quadruple-digit "outlier" I see travel speed feats used for low-ends often. To be clear here, I don't think this is an outlier, I just don't see how it's got more support than the DB one. I want this to be very clear: Not calling it an outlier, I'm just noting there might be a bit of a double standard here if we're going to attempt to throw out the DB calc.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 28, 2013)

Regicide said:


> I thought that was covered by the whole alternate dimension shit?



Not in the sense this topic is spinning it. It looks an awful lot like it's merely declaring summons don't interact with the real world.

I really think the idea of cinematic is lost on us, and I'm likely in the minority that it should stay exactly as that; cinematic.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 28, 2013)

Keollyn said:


> Not in the sense this topic is spinning it. It looks an awful lot like it's merely declaring summons don't interact with the real world.



Nada.

That's not even how its portrayed in Crisis Core dude.  You fight Ifrit on a fucking molten field of rock.

When you were previously in fucking banora or some shit IIRC.

The same exact shit happens with every other plot relevant summon in Crisis Core.

My interpretation wins out.



> I really think the idea of cinematic is lost on us, and I'm likely in the minority that it should stay exactly as that; cinematic.



Most cutscenes qualify as a cinematic.

Game mechanics and all that tripe?

They extend purely from fan belief in the first place more often than not, and that's not cutting it in a debate.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 28, 2013)

This shit's still going?

>lel speedo debate
>combat vs travel speed fallacy ahoy

With logic like that, Narido characters probably barely break the supersonic tier cuz they can't zoom several countries away at once on their own.


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Nada.
> 
> That's not even how its portrayed in Crisis Core dude.  You fight Ifrit on a fucking molten field of rock.



I haven't even seen 2 seconds of Crisis Core. 



> When you were previously in fucking banora or some shit IIRC.
> 
> The same exact shit happens with every other plot relevant summon in Crisis Core.



I don't think I said anything that concluded they don't take you to another area. 

I said the excerpt is saying they don't interact with the real world. 



> My interpretation wins out.



I didn't have an opposing interpretation. Though if I clarified further on why I said what I said, we would have something of opposition then.

But I don't care to get into debating anymore, remember?



> Most cutscenes qualify as a cinematic.



I'm aware



> Game mechanics and all that tripe?
> 
> They extend purely from fan belief in the first place more often than not, and that's not cutting it in a debate.



I don't see why its origin has to do with anything. If it isn't legit, it just isn't legit. 

Is it disclaimer time?

I care not for the validity of anything that happens in FF. All I was commenting on was the excerpt and how *gameplay* cinematic aren't treated as *gameplay *cinematic. Hell, a summon can bust an omniverse for all I care.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 28, 2013)

Keollyn said:


> I haven't even seen 2 seconds of Crisis Core.



Not saying you have.  Just informing you. 



> I don't think I said anything that concluded they don't take you to another area.
> 
> I said the excerpt is saying they don't interact with the real world.



Why play semantics when its not relevant?

They interact with the space they drag the fuckers into, that's all that really matters here.

The cinematics you see play in CC?  They're reflective of the environment you're dragged into and they tend to fuck shit up rather royally in them.



> I didn't have an opposing interpretation. Though if I clarified further on why I said what I said, we would have something of opposition then.



Fair enough for the moment.



> But I don't care to get into debating anymore, remember?



Doesn't mean I can't contest and clarify for those that do 



> I don't see why its origin has to do with anything. If it isn't legit, it just isn't legit.



The origin isn't what's relevant.  Its what criteria determines what is and isn't game mechanics.

And often summon cinematics or the like in any game arbitrarily fall under that when nothing exists to contradict them representing the actual power of the technique in question.

There are those directly contradicted by story elements, but often for shit like these they aren't, and often mesh with previous story feats.



> Is it disclaimer time?
> 
> I care not for the validity of anything that happens in FF. All I was commenting on was the excerpt and how *gameplay* cinematic aren't treated as *gameplay *cinematic. Hell, a summon can bust an omniverse for all I care.



You don't need to tack on a disclaimer to anything.

I get that you don't care.

Still going to offer up a rebuttal to contentious posts though.

You'd say that's fair right?


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Why play semantics when its not relevant?



I won't get into the reason why I mentioned it, as then you'd see the relevancy of that statement. Whether it has merit will forever remain to be unseen 



> They interact with the space they drag the fuckers into, that's all that really matters here.



I'll pass on the reason above 



> The cinematics you see play in CC?  They're reflective of the environment you're dragged into and they tend to fuck shit up rather royally in them.



...........

PASS!  



> Doesn't mean I can't contest and clarify for those that do



It would be even more dull here if you didn't. 

I wish I had the patience like I used to, probably be fun. 



> The origin isn't what's relevant.  Its what criteria determines what is and isn't game mechanics.



I'm fine with just making it acceptable across the board. Nothing isn't unusable. Less headaches.

Granted, I would ignore everything I say, as I truly believe I'd make non-canon canon at the rate I'm going.



> And often summon cinematics or the like in any game arbitrarily fall under that when nothing exists to contradict them representing the actual power of the technique in question.
> 
> There are those directly contradicted by story elements, but often for shit like these they aren't, and often mesh with previous story feats.



Sorry, I should have made a distinction that I was speaking of gameplay cinematics in general. I'm not even in a place to question FF as the last game I've played was Tactics, and that was years ago.



> You don't need to tack on a disclaimer to anything.
> 
> I get that you don't care.
> 
> ...



Oh of course. I blame too many years in the OBD for my need to preface.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 28, 2013)

Keollyn said:


> I won't get into the reason why I mentioned it, as then you'd see the relevancy of that statement. Whether it has merit will forever remain to be unseen



Fair enough. 

Might as well use this post to also say I haven't forgotten your request for Suidoken.

I'm just lazy.  I'll probably get around to it sometime after updating most of my FFVI calcs to reflect the recently gotten Planet size.

From fucking Locke, I found out it's about 3-4 times larger than earth 



> I'll pass on the reason above
> 
> 
> ...........
> ...



 



> It would be even more dull here if you didn't.
> 
> I wish I had the patience like I used to, probably be fun.



Indeed it would be, even more so given how boring this year has been in general.  Luckily I can amuse myself by figuring out how much of a large BOOM fictional fuckers make when I'm here. 

Probably would be, but that's not you at the moment, which is fine dude.



> I'm fine with just making it acceptable across the board. Nothing isn't unusable. Less headaches.



I'd be amused by the sheer chaos of it at any rate.



> Granted, I would ignore everything I say, as I truly believe I'd make non-canon canon at the rate I'm going.



Could be fun 

But nah, I getcha.



> Sorry, I should have made a distinction that I was speaking of gameplay cinematics in general. I'm not even in a place to question FF as the last game I've played was Tactics, and that was years ago.



Thought I was too, but narrowed it done to FF in example?

Eh, not like I always properly convey what the hell I want to with words.



> Oh of course. I blame too many years in the OBD for my need to preface.



Fair enough


----------



## Keollyn (Aug 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Might as well use this post to also say I haven't forgotten your request for Suidoken.



No worries. I have my sights on Wild Arms and Star Ocean at the moment, so anything for Suikoden is truly in no dire need.



> I'm just lazy.  I'll probably get around to it sometime after updating most of my FFVI calcs to reflect the recently gotten Planet size.
> 
> From fucking Locke, I found out it's about 3-4 times larger than earth



Good old Locke, always coming through 



> Indeed it would be, even more so given how boring this year has been in general.  Luckily I can amuse myself by figuring out how much of a large BOOM fictional fuckers make when I'm here.



That's similar to what I tend to do around here nowadays. I just like to know how powerful characters are, thus the reason I stay mostly to respect threads and wiki entries. Debating is just too much of a hassle for me. 



> Probably would be, but that's not you at the moment, which is fine dude.



Surprisingly, in my early days, I was something of a jerkass when it came to debating. Mellowed the hell out, but I still have a little tenacity when it comes to bullshit. Probably the reason why I haven't actively debated in OBD these last couple of years. I hear it isn't in a good state in that regards.

I think around '08 we would have some pretty nice debates. Probably when I was at my prime 



> I'd be amused by the sheer chaos of it at any rate.



At times, we need a little chaos 




> Thought I was too, but narrowed it done to FF in example?
> 
> Eh, not like I always properly convey what the hell I want to with words.



You likely did. I tend to skim text if I'm doing two things at once (think I was watching a show or viewing a let's play).

Actually, I have a tendency to skim text all the time


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## P3IN (Aug 28, 2013)

Raditz is a small planet buster if we go by powerscaling


----------



## Nevermind (Aug 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> To be more to the point?
> 
> The premise of calling outlier on most of anything relies entirely upon subjective interpretation of portrayal and if we were to truly adopt a style of debate where we really did take the statistical mean in each series in terms of showing... we'd end up with dog piss fictional character stats across the board.
> 
> Because what we call low end outliers makes up the bulk of all feats we see on screen/panel/etc



The method that probably most makes sense as a general rule is a high-end statistical one- a data set of the higher end feats combined with figuring out where things make sense with the overall progression of the story. That's more or less how it's done and for the most part, it works.


----------



## Coyote A (Aug 28, 2013)

> Moon busting
> Calc makes it planet-star level

This is one place where calcs shouldn't be used when it goes against the writer's portrayal.


Btw Raditz ain't getting a chance to tag Sephiroth if we accept the new mach 14000+ calc for Bahamut Fury.


----------



## Nevermind (Aug 28, 2013)

Learn how it works.


----------



## Saitomaru (Aug 28, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> > Moon busting
> > Calc makes it planet-star level
> 
> This is one place where calcs shouldn't be used when it goes against the writer's portrayal.
> ...



So if a take a couple tons of tnt and use it to blow up a teacup it was only a teacup buster?


----------



## Kazu (Aug 28, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> So if a take a couple tons of tnt and use it to blow up a teacup it was only a teacup buster?



Large Building level teacups.


----------



## Coyote A (Aug 28, 2013)

-double post-


----------



## Coyote A (Aug 28, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> So if a take a couple tons of tnt and use it to blow up a teacup it was only a teacup buster?


The point of making the moon vaporise was only for a dramatic effect. Its a trope.

Its pretty obvious the writer intended Piccolo to be only a moon buster at that point in DB. Infact no one before Saiyan saga vegeta is implied to planet bust.


----------



## Adamant soul (Aug 28, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> The point of making the moon vaporise was only for a dramatic effect. Its a trope.
> 
> Its pretty obvious the writer intended Piccolo to be only a moon buster. Infact no one before Saiyan saga vegeta is implied to planet bust.



What the writer intended makes no difference, the fact was it was vaporized and calc'ed to be planet level as a result.

Feats > Writer's intentions


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## Solar (Aug 28, 2013)

Even if we take writer's intentions into account, I'm fairly confident that Sephiroth wasn't meant to be a continent destroyer with sub-relativistic speed and would no doubt lose to a moon busting Raditz.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 28, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> The point of making the moon vaporise was only for a dramatic effect. Its a trope.
> 
> Its pretty obvious the writer intended Piccolo to be only a moon buster at that point in DB. Infact no one before Saiyan saga vegeta is implied to planet bust.


It's a good thing author's intent means jack shit then.


----------



## AngryHeretic (Aug 28, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Explanation for places not getting destroyed was provided on the page before.



Hmm, not sure I buy that. Of course some summons like Ifrit do it in Crisis Core, but the majority of the summons don't do anything in their animations/cutscenes suggesting that. Keep in mind the Complete Guide said 'many', not all. Not to mention in Fury's case in particular, the attack that hit Zack after the cutscene looked nothing like the continent-busting firedeath ray from earlier. 

Even disregarding author's intent that Sephiroth at his peak be above anything else in FF7, Fury just isn't doing that much damage. It's for cinematic effect. Unless of course, in the process of pulling off that attack, Fury: flies away from Zack, teleports back to its dimension (with its own Earth and moon), blows the moon up, sends the attack back down to alternate-dimension Earth, and in the middle of all that teleports himself along with part of the firedeath ray back to FF7 Earth. 

Anyway AC Sephiroth >>>>>>> SOLDIER Sephiroth >>>> Zack > Bahamut Fury

So if we accept that Fury calc as legit, Raditz is getting stomped, whatever the hell level buster he is. And we might as well count all of AVALANCHE as planet-busters by the end of FF7 anyway, by powerscaling, since they surpass SOLDIER Sephiroth around Disk 2 of the game.


----------



## Nevermind (Aug 28, 2013)

Bernkastel said:


> Even if we take writer's intentions into account, I'm fairly confident that Sephiroth wasn't meant to be a continent destroyer with sub-relativistic speed and would no doubt lose to a moon busting Raditz.



Why are you rep sealed?


----------



## Adamant soul (Aug 28, 2013)

AngryHeretic said:


> Hmm, not sure I buy that. Of course some summons like Ifrit do it in Crisis Core, but the majority of the summons don't do anything in their animations/cutscenes suggesting that. Keep in mind the Complete Guide said 'many', not all. Not to mention in Fury's case in particular, the attack that hit Zack after the cutscene looked nothing like the continent-busting firedeath ray from earlier.
> 
> Even disregarding author's intent that Sephiroth at his peak be above anything else in FF7, Fury just isn't doing that much damage. It's for cinematic effect. Unless of course, in the process of pulling off that attack, Fury: flies away from Zack, teleports back to its dimension (with its own Earth and moon), blows the moon up, sends the attack back down to alternate-dimension Earth, and in the middle of all that teleports himself along with part of the firedeath ray back to FF7 Earth.
> 
> ...



We already disregard author's intent of Sephiroth being stronger than anyone in FFVII because Chaos and Omega have feats that put the rest of the verse to shame. 

Also where are you getting planet busting from? No one in FFVII is a planet buster. The strongest they have are continent busters (even Chaos and Omega aren't close to even moon level, much less planet level). 

Sephiroth hasn't got anything that would scratch Raditz much less kill him while Raditz can spam attacks that would kill Sephiroth if they so much as graze him. Eventually Sephiroth's going to die.


----------



## willyvereb (Aug 28, 2013)

^You mean instantly, right?
I mean Sephiroth would die to the very fist attack.
DB characters can also ignore the inverse square law to a limited extend so a near-miss from the blast would probably still hit Sephiroth with the attack's full energy.


----------



## AngryHeretic (Aug 28, 2013)

Adamant soul said:


> We already disregard author's intent of Sephiroth being stronger than anyone in FFVII because Chaos and Omega have feats that put the rest of the verse to shame.
> 
> Also where are you getting planet busting from? No one in FFVII is a planet buster. The strongest they have are continent busters (even Chaos and Omega aren't close to even moon level, much less planet level).
> 
> Sephiroth hasn't got anything that would scratch Raditz much less kill him while Raditz can spam attacks that would kill Sephiroth if they so much as graze him. Eventually Sephiroth's going to die.



I'm not saying they are, the opposite actually. I'm saying if we take that cutscene with Fury (where it blows up the moon) as an accurate representation of what it can do, then everyone in FF7 gets bumped up in power a lot because by powerscaling and levels the entire main cast becomes a hell of a lot stronger than anyone in Crisis Core by the end of the original game.

Also, I know this isn't on-topic, but could you give me a quick rundown of Chaos'/Omega's feats? I've played DoC and I don't recall seeing anything in regards to their combat abilities that imply AC Sephiroth or One-Winged Angel Sephiroth couldn't handle them. Actually just PM me, no need to turn this into a thread about those two.


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2013)

> We already disregard author's intent of Sephiroth being stronger than anyone in FFVII because Chaos and Omega have feats that put the rest of the verse to shame.



This is the reason?

AC Sephiroth is confirmed to be far above his FF7 self and pretty much fucked around his entire battle with Cloud.


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## Sygurgh (Aug 28, 2013)

Summon animations are canon now?


----------



## Adamant soul (Aug 28, 2013)

Sabl?s said:


> This is the reason?
> 
> AC Sephiroth is confirmed to be far above his FF7 self and pretty much fucked around his entire battle with Cloud.



True but Cloud isn't comparable to Chaos or Omega either, Even with the Mach 14,000 from the Bahamut feat, Omega's speed feat utterly dwarfs that at Mach 167,000, it's over ten times as fast as Bahamut and Chaos outran it. There's also the clash between them which is in the Exatons while I don't remember anything below them going passed Petatons.


----------



## willyvereb (Aug 28, 2013)

@Flutter: See Piccolo's 23rd Budokai blast for example.
They can probably control the energy of their attacks.
So even when seemingly randomly explodes, most of the energy will be flying towards the enemy.
Think of the explosion as a secondary energy blast.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 28, 2013)

eh, that often happens with large explosions in fiction I think

sort of


----------



## Solar (Aug 28, 2013)

Nevermind said:


> Why are you rep sealed?



I'm too good for rep.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 28, 2013)

AngryHeretic said:


> Hmm, not sure I buy that.



You don't need to buy anything, nor does belief play any relevance in refutation of a stance.

I provided canon information regarding the summons and how they work.  They're all shown to do exactly what they're said to do in that exert in Crisis Core.



> Of course some summons like Ifrit do it in Crisis Core, but the majority of the summons don't do anything in their animations/cutscenes suggesting that.



All the ones in Crisis Core do exactly that you Tit.

Ifrit brings you to some molten field of rock, Bahamut drags you to some rocky area to fight, Fury rips the entire roof top into his own sub dimension.



> Keep in mind the Complete Guide said 'many', not all.



Yeah, Bahamut Tremor is the exclusion.



> Not to mention in Fury's case in particular, the attack that hit Zack after the cutscene looked nothing like the continent-busting firedeath ray from earlier.



Memory limitation in the game.  Trying to show something like that on the same scale as Zack wouldn't be possible in the actual game and can only be displayed in the cutscene.



> Even disregarding author's intent that Sephiroth at his peak be above anything else in FF7, Fury just isn't doing that much damage.  It's for cinematic effect.



First, the statement's about Sephiroth refer to his will power.

Secondly, no, its not just cinematic effect.  Numerous feats in the verse already support the sort of output shown for one and you're entire argument that Zack couldn't couldn't survive its attack stems purely from belief (not to suggest he could at that point given fury doesn't even need to canonically fire off the fucking thing... you can actually defeat it fast enough without seeing Exa Flare shot).

Don't bring up the fact he was killed by Bullets.  .  We disregard them for Whitebeard in One Piece because of how retarded it is, we do the same elsewhere.



> Unless of course, in the process of pulling off that attack, Fury: flies away from Zack, teleports back to its dimension (with its own Earth and moon), blows the moon up, sends the attack back down to alternate-dimension Earth, and in the middle of all that teleports himself along with part of the firedeath ray back to FF7 Earth.



They're already its dimension.  Did you not pay any attention during the fight at all?

The roof is floating in some green space ontop of that roof top in Bahamut's diemension somewhere on that earth analog.



> Anyway AC Sephiroth >>>>>>> SOLDIER Sephiroth >>>> Zack > Bahamut Fury



So what?



> So if we accept that Fury calc as legit, Raditz is getting stomped, whatever the hell level buster he is. And we might as well count all of AVALANCHE as planet-busters by the end of FF7 anyway, by powerscaling, since they surpass SOLDIER Sephiroth around Disk 2 of the game.



No he's not.  Raditz via powerscaling from piccolo is small planet level, just short of earth busting.

And like hell did anyone in the party surpass SOLDIER Sephiroth sans possibly Cloud.  Your best measuring stick for the party is that Yuffie canonically defeated Godo and co, that's it.

They're above the Turks to some unknown extent.



AngryHeretic said:


> I'm not saying they are, the opposite actually. I'm saying if we take that cutscene with Fury (where it blows up the moon) as an accurate representation of what it can do, then everyone in FF7 gets bumped up in power a lot because by powerscaling and levels the entire main cast becomes a hell of a lot stronger than anyone in Crisis Core by the end of the original game.



Prove it.

Prove that anyone in the party outstripes Sephiroth in CC, or Zack at this point in time.

Don't bring up game mechanics like them one shotting Soldier 1sts or some shit.

Give me some story feats.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 28, 2013)

if Zack beat Bahamut Fury - does he get Furys moon-related DC and durability for himself ?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 28, 2013)

His magic is potent enough to put Fury down, and his blade is sharp enough to cut it.

Doesn't effect his general striking power though.

Doesn't mean he's greater than fury in all stats.

End of game he would be though, given he's roughly above Genesis, who absorbed some Huge Materia analogue IIRC.

And Genesis was regarded as a larger threat than fury to begin with anyway.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 28, 2013)

but he never tanked one of those blasts ?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 28, 2013)

hmm, although idk where I got the durability from anyway

Fury himself didn't get hit with his own blast ? or did he ?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 28, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> but he never tanked one of those blasts ?



Fury is analogous to one of the Weapons like Ultimate if you're referring to it.

And Zack as I noted in my slight edit above fights on even footing with a far superior Genesis by the end of the game.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 28, 2013)

right

I'm sure you'll edit (or already have) Zacks profile accordingly with explanations and shit


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## AngryHeretic (Aug 28, 2013)

> Memory limitation in the game.  Trying to show something like that on the same scale as Zack wouldn't be possible in the actual game and can only be displayed in the cutscene.



It's not just a memory limitation. An attack like that would have turned Midgar to ash, and the rooftop didn't show so much as a scratch from that, during or after the fight. Nor did the moon disappear, nor did the area around where they were fighting show a single sign of taking damage from their fight.



> First, the statement's about Sephiroth refer to his will power.
> 
> Secondly, no, its not just cinematic effect.  Numerous feats in the verse already support the sort of output shown for one and you're entire argument that Zack couldn't couldn't survive its attack stems purely from belief (not to suggest he could at that point given fury doesn't even need to canonically fire off the fucking thing... you can actually defeat it fast enough without seeing Exa Flare shot).



The fact that it's _possible_ for Zack to have beaten it without seeing that attack says absolutely nothing. You could disregard that attack on the same basis: Bahamut doesn't have to use it, therefore he doesn't necessarily have that level of power. Also didn't you say canon was irrelevant...? Anyway.

It seems like you're fixated on that first sentence regarding whether I 'buy' it. My justification for surviving that attack has nothing to do with that. I didn't say a word about whether or not Zack would survive that, I'm sure they would power him up that much if the story demanded it. What I said was that, again, the entire area around Midgar would turn to ash. Not to mention the platform as well. The hunk of metal that thing was made out of is not going to survive such an attack unscathed.



> Don't bring up the fact he was killed by Bullets.  .  We disregard them for Whitebeard in One Piece because of how retarded it is, we do the same elsewhere.



Who said I was going to mention that? Zack's ability to handle that attack isn't the question here.



> They're already its dimension.  Did you not pay any attention during the fight at all?
> 
> The roof is floating in some green space ontop of that roof top in Bahamut's diemension somewhere on that earth analog.



Look back to the start of the fight. Fury doesn't drag Zack into any dimension, not for this fight. The sky looks greenish but the spotlights from Midgar below are still visible and you never see Zack get teleported anywhere.



> So what?
> 
> No he's not.  Raditz via powerscaling from piccolo is small planet level, just short of earth busting.
> 
> ...



Actually, you can just use their levels as a measuring stick here. And their combat stats. Though gameplay in general doesn't make sense for calculations and what not, and I hate to bring it up in most cases, it does a fine job of _comparing_ characters in an overall sense. Cloud's flashback makes it quite clear that Sephiroth at SOLDIER level was only around lvl 50, with other 1st level SOLDIERS (that are markedly inferior) being in the lvl 40s or so. I don't recall Sephy's HP in the flashback by heart but it was in the 3000s-4000s I believe. Even Cait Sith would be higher than lvl 50 and have better stats than Sephy would by the end of the game. AC Sephiroth far exceeds all of them, but AC Sephiroth is a whole different animal from Nibelheim SOLDIER Sephiroth.

The 'so what' of my comparison was that it's ridiculous to assume such a high showing for Fury as being legitimate unless you also jack up the rest of the main cast to a ridiculously high level based on powerscaling.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 28, 2013)

AngryHeretic said:


> It's not just a memory limitation. An attack like that would have turned Midgar to ash, and the rooftop didn't show so much as a scratch from that, during or after the fight. Nor did the moon disappear, nor did the area around where they were fighting show a single sign of taking damage from their fight.



It is a memory limitation.

They're already in an alternative dimension, the platform wasn't destroyed due to gameplay limitations (not to mention you can easily argue Zack took in most of the energetic effects of it on impact in the first place), the moon didn't disappear because they were in a fucking alternate dimension and nothing indicates it actually exceeded the GBE.



> The fact that it's _possible_ for Zack to have beaten it without seeing that attack says absolutely nothing. You could disregard that attack on the same basis: Bahamut doesn't have to use it, therefore he doesn't necessarily have that level of power. Also didn't you say canon was irrelevant...? Anyway.



Nope, they can have that attack power and not shoot off the attack canonically.  Its like the Bayonatta non canon ending where she fucked up a planet.

In the canon one she only punted someone at FTL speeds IIRC.

Neither ending indicated she was any stronger than she was in the other, thus it'd be stupid to suggest that, despite non canon, that she can't perform the non canon ending's shit.

If the attack can be performed in the game proper, but doesn't have to happen caonically, that doesn't invalidate them possessing that level of power.



> It seems like you're fixated on that first sentence regarding whether I 'buy' it. My justification for surviving that attack has nothing to do with that. I didn't say a word about whether or not Zack would survive that, I'm sure they would power him up that much if the story demanded it. What I said was that, again, the entire area around Midgar would turn to ash. Not to mention the platform as well. The hunk of metal that thing was made out of is not going to survive such an attack unscathed.



They aren't in Midgar any longer.  The roof top is floating in some green space on some earth analogue in Bahamut's dimension.

And Zack clearly took the brunt of the impact, if not just the fact its a limitation of the game engine that doesn't allow for the platform to be vaporized.



> Who said I was going to mention that? Zack's ability to handle that attack isn't the question here.



Preemptive on my part.  I've dealt with fuckers appealing to it previously to refute shit about such and such.



> Look back to the start of the fight. Fury doesn't drag Zack into any dimension, not for this fight. The sky looks greenish but the spotlights from Midgar below are still visible and you never see Zack get teleported anywhere.



The platform during the fight is only the roof top.

They aren't in Midgar.  It doesn't even look like the roof top or any of the surrounding buildings are still fucking present.

Watch the fight, compare the roof top and skyline to  and  Bahamut appears.

Not to mention, even if what they're in appears to be midgar anyway?

My explanation still functions.  They're in their own little pocket of reality to fight now, kind of like in TWEWY, free to wreck whatever the fuck they want without any repercussions on the real world.



> Actually, you can just use their levels as a measuring stick here. And their combat stats. Though gameplay in general doesn't make sense for calculations and what not, and I hate to bring it up in most cases, it does a fine job of _comparing_ characters in an overall sense. Cloud's flashback makes it quite clear that Sephiroth at SOLDIER level was only around lvl 50, with other 1st level SOLDIERS (that are markedly inferior) being in the lvl 40s or so.



And the fucking rabbit mooks on the northern continent apparently rape Soldier 3rds.

And those elite Shinra Mooks too.  Despite fuckers like the Turks or any SOLDIER being regarded as a fuckton above them in story.

The levels and game play stats are fuck all worth anything.  Mooks like those completely invalidate any credibility they could possibly have.



> The 'so what' of my comparison was that it's ridiculous to assume such a high showing for Fury as being legitimate unless you also jack up the rest of the main cast to a ridiculously high level based on powerscaling.



The only ones getting "jacked up" would be Cloud, Zack, Angeal, Genesis, Sephiroth, and whatever fuckers could contend with someone like Cloud in DoC.

The main party never reaches anything close to Zack's level at this point in the game, let alone SOLDIER Sephiroth.

Not to mention, its not like they're getting jacked up much from where they were standing previously.  Fuckers were already evaluated continental with feats like these from the huge materia to shit like the Ultimate Weapon's feats.


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## KaiserWombat (Aug 28, 2013)

Okay, this thread has *clearly* more than ran its course

Its threading fast into the waters of Oblivion itself

A sweet merciful lock to it all


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