# Gaara and Kisame vs Itachi and MS Kakashi



## Hi no Ishi (Mar 10, 2018)

Location Snowy Forest 
Distance 30M 
Killing intent but in character
Manga Knowledge
Edit: war arc or last fight everybody.
Fight!!


----------



## Katou (Mar 10, 2018)

I think we all know Mindfuck wins everything


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 11, 2018)

You could argue Itachi could beat both Kisame and Gaara, mainly because I believe Itachi > Kisame is near inarguable and Gaara wouldn't make too much of a difference depending on the situation.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 2 | Dislike 2


----------



## Crow (Mar 11, 2018)

Kakashi can hard counter Kisame with Raiton. And if Kakashi needs to he could resort to Kamui, but he won't do it right off the bat. Gaara is really where the problem is. If he takes to the air immediately when the fight starts he can bombard them with sand. But if Itachi launches his Magmata beads and Kakashi launches his most powerful ranged attack they could probably take him down.

I'm open to arguments from the other side cause this one could go either way


----------



## Maverick04 (Mar 11, 2018)

Tsukuyomi fucks up Kisame and renders him unconscious..Gaara uses his Sand as a defense but Kakashi can simply Kamui a bigass hole through the sand (like he did to the TSB armor against Juubidara for Gai to attack him) for Itachi to either totsuka stab him or Amaterasu his head

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Marvel (Mar 11, 2018)

Team Sharingan Mid diff,Kisame dosent have the speed to deal with and or counter Amaterasu whine Kakashi can easily defeat Garaa with a genjutsu + Kamui Combo.


----------



## hbcaptain (Mar 11, 2018)

MS duo wins, Itachi is most likely between one and two tiers above everyone else, thus and obviously the team in which he is would win more times than not.

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## Architect (Mar 11, 2018)

Kisame tries to catch Sharingan Duo in a Waterdome, while Gaara flies upwards. Kisame failes to catch Kakashi, because Kakashi warps himself behind flying Gaara and kills him. Kisame heads towards Itachi. Itachi uses Amaterasu, but Kisame launches Daikodan at it, DKD abosorbs it and hits Yata Itachi managed to bring out in time. Regardless of the outcome of that clash, Kakashi finishes off Kisame.

Reactions: Creative 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 11, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Location Snowy Forest
> Distance 30M
> Killing intent but in character
> Manga Knowledge
> ...


Itachi and Kakashi mid diffs. Itachi could avoide massive sand attacks with Susanoo. After a few blows he would hit Gaara with Totsuka and seal him. Kisame could be more troublesome. If he uses Waterdome instantly, then team 2 maybe will win. But probably he would engage in fight with Kakashi and sent in box land.
Making this thread affects that Sharks population was decreased. They almost extincted.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Topace (Mar 11, 2018)

If Madara couldn’t get through Gaara AD what is gods name makes you think Itachi can.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Santoryu (Mar 11, 2018)

Add someone like Deidara to the Akatasuki team and I can see it being a closer match.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 11, 2018)

Gaara and Kisame dont work well together

They both rely on taking the terrain and using it to their advantage, the issue is sand and water in vast quantities arent exactly friends 

Either Kisames water gets eaten  up by more sand, or Gaaras sand gets water logged and useless by kisames water

Or they both realize this, and hold themselves back from affecting the terrain and fight only with what they have on hand and in small quantities

Either way at least one of them are crippled, in the latter scenario BOTH are.

Regardless imma side with Team MS

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## Gohara (Mar 12, 2018)

Itachi's and Kakashi's characters win in my opinion.  Excluding 8th Gate Kakashi is portrayed as being > or at least => Gai who is => Kisame.  Itachi's character has significantly superior portrayal to any other character in that match up.  Kamui, Izanami, and Izanagi are also significant advantages.


----------



## Stonaem (Mar 13, 2018)

Historically, beasts have not fared well against the Sharingan. How will Elemental Beasts do?

• Elemental Beasts:
- Terrain Control
- Chakra Monsters
- Elemental Mastery

• Anbu Boys:
- Sharingan
- Susano'o
- Tsukiyomi, Kamui, Amaterasu
- Trickery

• Key Factors
- Fight Control
- Counterattacking Prowess

• The Fight:
- Kakashi attempts Kamui. The Love of Karura intercepts him.
- Kisame spits a lake. 
- Five Shark Feeding Frenzy is met with Amaterasu
- Itachi releases Amaterasu upon the lake. Samehada feeds.
- Gaara takes to the air. Kisame releases Water Dome
- Kakashi uses Kamui to undo the Water Dome
- Kisame removes the Water Dome and takes to the air on a Water Dragon
- Great Prison Sand Burial!

Results:
"Now the Yata Mirror will forever reflect the darkness of the earth, from 500m underground"


----------



## hbcaptain (Mar 13, 2018)

Itachi solos.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 13, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> You could argue Itachi could beat both Kisame and Gaara, mainly because I believe Itachi > Kisame is near inarguable and Gaara wouldn't make too much of a difference depending on the situation.



Itachi and Kisame were hinted to be equals, or nearly equals on 2 separate occasions. Once in the manga, once in Akatsuki Hiden.

"I can't believe this is how Kisame Hoshigaki, the Monster of the The Hidden Mist and someone strong enough to be partners with Itachi would die like this" or something along those lines

In Akatsuki hiden, Kisame straight threatens to kill Itachi

"At any rate, I'm proud to be your partner, the genius of the Uchihas, on the day you betray the Akatsuki, I will be entrusted with being a great step for that genius"

These 2 statements imply that it's the authors intent to have them be comparable in most aspects, and more or less equal all around.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Either Kisames water gets eaten up by more sand, or Gaaras sand gets water logged and useless by kisames water



Weird how according to you, Gaaras sand is unaffected by Kisames Suitons when Gaara is fighting Kisame

But when he's on his team it's a hindrance.

Disgusting.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 13, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Itachi and Kisame were hinted to be equals, or nearly equals on 2 separate occasions. Once in the manga, once in Akatsuki Hiden.
> 
> "I can't believe this is how Kisame Hoshigaki, the Monster of the The Hidden Mist and someone strong enough to be partners with Itachi would die like this" or something along those lines
> 
> ...


Let's give Sharks a Chance.


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 13, 2018)

When Itachi hit Kakashi with Tsukuyomi, Kisame was surprised that Kakashi was still alive. This means he knows about Tsukuyomi and its effects. He would probably do his best to avoid eye contact, but slip ups could occur; they are in battle after all.

If Itachi does land Tsukuyomi on Kisame, he will likely be out of comission for a little while. A long while.

Kakashi having held of Gaara now gets Itachi's help, so they should be fine. 

Sharingan duo high diffs.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 13, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Weird how according to you, Gaaras sand is unaffected by Kisames Suitons when Gaara is fighting Kisame
> 
> But when he's on his team it's a hindrance.
> 
> Disgusting.



Thats not what i said, i said either gaara hinders Kisame or the other way around or they both refrain from large AoE attacks nerfing them both
When i have i ever said Gaara is immune to Kisames water? If anything i would have argued that he would simply accumulate more sand if some sand ic ountered, not that his sand cant be affected by water...Regardless, he cant do that here without either hindering Kisame or himself
Maybe instead of throwing around baseless accusations, you could actually attempt to argue the topic at hand

Or you could try to put words in my mouth and strawman...Either or i guess

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## hysoka uchiha (Mar 13, 2018)

the monsters win.


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 13, 2018)

hysoka uchiha said:


> the monsters win.



Gaara has feelings too, you know...

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## savior2005 (Mar 13, 2018)

Kamui GG


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 13, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Itachi and Kisame were hinted to be equals, or nearly equals on 2 separate occasions. Once in the manga, once in Akatsuki Hiden.
> 
> "I can't believe this is how Kisame Hoshigaki, the Monster of the The Hidden Mist and someone strong enough to be partners with Itachi would die like this" or something along those lines
> 
> ...


All I said was that you could argue that Itachi solos, not definite for sure- but I'll go ahead and take that side completely now. "Strong enough to be his partner" =/= "as strong as him". Also, threatening someone doesn't have too much substance lol. I'll touch up more on this, currently studying for a final


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2018)

The OP should have been better.

Is that War Arc Gaara, or Deidara Fight Gaara?

Is that War Arc MS Kakashi, or Kakashi unexperienced with his MS?

I mean seriously. You can do better, , i believe in you. Kappa


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Mar 14, 2018)

StarWanderer said:


> The OP should have been better.
> 
> Is that War Arc Gaara, or Deidara Fight Gaara?
> 
> ...





Hi no Ishi said:


> Location Snowy Forest
> Distance 30M
> Killing intent but in character
> Manga Knowledge
> ...


fixed.


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 14, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> fixed.



Last fight _everybody_?

Gaara solos

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 14, 2018)

Now that I've got time, here's my full argument for MS duo winning.
But first, there's a chance Itachi can beat both on his own.


Troyse22 said:


> Itachi and Kisame were hinted to be equals, or nearly equals on 2 separate occasions. Once in the manga, once in Akatsuki Hiden.
> 
> "I can't believe this is how Kisame Hoshigaki, the Monster of the The Hidden Mist and someone strong enough to be partners with Itachi would die like this" or something along those lines
> 
> ...


Him being partners with Itachi does not mean Itachi ~ Kisame. Kakuzu/Hidan lol, Kakuzu is a beast compared to Hidan, whether in physical feats or versatility.
There's nothing to imply that Kisame knew Itachi's full capability. Kisame was shook by Jiraiya- yes they both ran away, but Itachi is a double-agent and he obviously has a different agenda. Less credibly, 
*Spoiler*: __ 




In the anime, Kisame makes several statements.
(before confrontation)
"While you may be able to manage against him, I couldn't possibly..."
(after confrontation)
"Why must we retreat? You would be..."



Now in the manga, before confrontation all Kisame says is that Jiraiya might be a match for the both of them.
But the post-confront is almost the exact same. "Why is a retreat necessary...for *you*..." I think this is a solid implication that Kisame thought Itachi could have everything in control and it's a strong indication towards a gap between them. Also, an implication that Jiraiya > Kisame, and if Jiraiya is stronger than Kisame, everything else goes against him.

Jiraiya ~ Orochimaru
Orochimaru (w/ debatably his strongest Jutsu) << Itachi (worn out)
Sage Jiraiya << Six Paths of Pain
Itachi >~ Nagato > Six Paths of Pain (evidenced by Nagato > KCM1 Naruto > SM Naruto ~ Six Paths)

After basic powerscale, I'm setting Itachi ahead of Kisame by one to two tiers.
Also, Gaara lost to Deidara, but you can give Gaara benefit of the doubt because Suna was taken hostage I guess. So Gaara ~ Deidara or at best beats him with high diff. Itachi made Deidara look like fodder within the Akatsuki. Don't see him having to try too hard on Gaara.

Now WITH Kakashi (War Arc), it should be a stomp. Kakashi almost caught Deidara slipping when his MS usage put him in a state where he could no longer walk. War Arc Kakashi was throwing Kamui around confidently, and I think that advancement puts him quite ahead as well. (Don't know any counter Gaara has for Kakashi.

You can't objectively say how Itachi/Kakashi and Kisame/Gaara will fight with each other. But as objectively as I could put it

Itachi > Kisame
MS Kakashi > Gaara


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> fixed.



Well, MS Kakashi can take out one of them from the start with his Kamui and then it's 2 vs 1 situation. Kakashi and Itachi win.


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 14, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Him being partners with Itachi does not mean Itachi ~ Kisame. Kakuzu/Hidan lol, Kakuzu is a beast compared to Hidan, whether in physical feats or versatility



Not saying it does.

Hidan and Kakuzu situation is outlier, as according to Kishi himself they were both supposed to be more powerful



InfiniteHiraishin said:


> There's nothing to imply that Kisame knew Itachi's full capability



He's seen everything Itachi can do on panel besides Susanoo.



InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Kisame was shook by Jiraiya- yes they both ran away, but Itachi is a double-agent and he obviously has a different agenda. Less credibly,


He wasn't shook, Jiraiya was shook.

"It took everything I had just to get them away from you"

Kisame also stood directly against Jiraiya. "Not so fast old man, this fight is none of our business" after raising his sword, a clear threat and warning to Jiraiya.

Kisame only retreated under Itachi's orders.

He made no move to retreat before that.



InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Also, an implication that Jiraiya > Kisame, and if Jiraiya is stronger than Kisame, everything else goes against him.



Jiraiya>Kisame as per P1, but not by as much as people think.



InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Itachi >~ Nagato > Six Paths of Pain (evidenced by Nagato > KCM1 Naruto > SM Naruto ~ Six Paths)



@WorldsStrongest 





Infinite you're using an outdated P1 statement to downplay or ignore LATER feats hype and portrayal, that's not gonna fly.

Orochimaru was considered the strongest Sannin around the world (even if people don't like it, it's true)

Kisame then mocks Deidara dying to the man who killed Orochimaru!

"Huh, and I thought he was one of the stronger ones" (referring to Deidara) suggesting he thinks that someone who can lose to the man who killed a Sannin isn't so strong

Also Kisames P1 statement was based purely off of hype.

He was portrayed far stronger than the Sannin in P2


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 14, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Not saying it does.
> 
> Hidan and Kakuzu situation is outlier, as according to Kishi himself they were both supposed to be more powerful
> 
> ...


Why am i tagged?

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 14, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Why am i tagged?



cuz I thought you'd get a kick out of Itachi>Nagato given you've debated with Saph on that argument quite often in the past lol


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 14, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> cuz I thought you'd get a kick out of Itachi>Nagato given you've debated with Saph on that argument quite often in the past lol


Fair enough 

Youd need to be blind to not have Nagato above every other akatsuki member

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 14, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Fair enough
> 
> Youd need to be blind to not have Nagato above every other akatsuki member



Well lets not get ahead of ourselves

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 14, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Jiraiya ~ Orochimaru
> Orochimaru (w/ debatably his strongest Jutsu) << Itachi (worn out)
> Sage Jiraiya << Six Paths of Pain
> *Itachi >~ Nagato* > Six Paths of Pain (evidenced by Nagato > KCM1 Naruto > *SM Naruto ~ Six Paths*)


Hey new guy

While i dont have any issue with some of this, the bold is...Questionable to say the least

On what basis can you argue that Itachi is equal to Nagato?

When a weakened Edo Nagato further weakened by the fact Kabuto was controlling him, would have 1 shotted Itachi if KCM naruto and Bee werent there to bail him out?

Again, i reiterate, weakened Nagato

Also...How can you argue that SM naruto is equal to Pain? When Pain beat him? Depite horrendous disadvantages like Naruto having prep time, as well as intel on most of pains abilities, Pain wasnt allowed to kill Naruto, and Pains strongest path (Deva) was on cooldown because he just saitama'd a village?

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 14, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Well lets not get ahead of ourselves


Cant go agreeing with canon now can we

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 14, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Hey new guy
> 
> While i dont have any issue with some of this, the bold is...Questionable to say the least
> 
> ...



I actually missed that, I was still in awe over the Itachi>Nagato thing


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 14, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Cant go agreeing with canon now can we



Your flawed interpretation =/= canon

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 14, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Your flawed interpretation =/= canon


You have no right to speak of flawed interpretations kid 

0 evidence in this manga puts any opponent Kisame has ever faced, or Kisame himself as peer to Nagato

Yet you regularly put him there anyway

But i suppose youve improved

You used to say Kisame>Nagato after all

Youre getting there 

Wont be long now until you put kisame about 3 tiers lower, where he actually belongs per feats and statements

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 14, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> 0 evidence in this manga puts any opponent Kisame has ever faced, or Kisame himself as peer to Nagato




BeE shouldve been able to break Nagatos grasp on him with BM

Kisame straight beat Bee.

He has a tech that can neg 99% of the verse (Waterdome)
A tech that can neg 100% of Ninjutsu (Daikodan)
And the list goes on.
Insane strength, chakra, stamina, reactions, speed, Ninjutsu etc.

I put Kisame where I do because I believe that's where he belongs.

And on a tier list I put it Rinne Obito>Kisame>Nagato but I consider them peers with the difference in overall power almost non existent, and the 3 make up an entire tier on their own. They're the gap between high kage and transcendent (high kage being people like Minato, Itachi, Tobirama, Pein) etc and transcendent being people like EMS Madara, Kabuto with ET, Hashirama etc.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 2


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 14, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Tsukuyomi fucks up Kisame and renders him unconscious..Gaara uses his Sand as a defense but Kakashi can simply Kamui a bigass hole through the sand (like he did to the TSB armor against Juubidara for Gai to attack him) for Itachi to either totsuka stab him or Amaterasu his head


Pretty much this


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 14, 2018)

Something funny @Serene Grace 

Or maybe you're projecting because I stomped you in the difference between impefect sages and perfect sages debate.

Wait so did WS and Blu-ray

So is it cause ur still salty about it 

At least I have some substance to work with, and I don't rely on non canon sources for my opinions (the databook/s)

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 14, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Pretty much this



Not sure how Tsukuyomi breaks down someone who can will himself out of unconsciousness, let alone actually render him unconscious to the point he can't snap himself out of it.

Jiraiya and Kisame both have shown to have such strong wills that they can literally revive themselves in bad circumstances.

Tsukuyomi, a genjutsu that actually doesn't cause any physical harm isn't putting Kisame down.

I can't see Itachi going for the whole "Stab kisame a bunch of times in tsukuyomi" tactic, as hes been stabbed on panel and it doesn't even make him flinch.

It's saying Ay is defeated by the constant stabbing when he has cut off his own arm and didn't give a shit.

Their pain tolerance is insane.

Itachi also doesn't know what causes Kisame mental anguish, as Kisame never showns any actual emotion or care in front of Itachi besides fighting, anger etc.

Tsukuyomi is so useless against Kisame it's almost hilarious.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 14, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> BeE shouldve been


So right here you say "bee would win with BM"


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame straight beat Bee


And right here you ignore the fact he couldn't use BM even if he wanted to 

So double standards are how you justify putting Kisame at Nagatos level?

I see


Troyse22 said:


> He has a tech that can neg 99% of the verse (Waterdome)


"99 % of the verse"

Do you hear yourself 

I can name over a dozen shinobi who all counter waterdome just off the top of my head provided they dont have to worry about local giant raccoons


Any version of Naruto post Time Skip
Any version of Sasuke post Time Skip
Sakura War Arc and higher
Jman
Oro
Tsunade
Hiruzen
Hanzo
Killer Bee
Itachi
Yagura
Kitsutchi
Minato
Tobirama
Again...These were just off the top of my head

I also excluded anyone higher than High Kage tier


Troyse22 said:


> A tech that can neg 100% of Ninjutsu


Im kinda sick of typing the letters "N" "L" and "F" back to back in posts against you

Yet it seems i have no choice...Since you still refuse to acknowledge them and continue using said logical fallacy

Also inb4 you do that amazing thing you do where you put words in my mouth and assume everyone elses viewpoint you disagree with is magically also my viewpoint despite teh fact ive told ypu directly sveral times its not

Im not suggesting "lel daikodan cant do what kisame said it can lel"

I agree that it counters ninjutsu...But its not beating any and all ninjutsu because you want to take kisames word of mouth statement, and the jutsus 0 feats, and run 150 miles where it gives you maybe half an inch 

I have no qualms about it beating chakra based techniques at a respectable level...

But anything that has the raw power of Hirudora or higher, is beating Daikodan

Because its entire structure will just be negged by the far superior offence just like Hirudora did to it


Chakra absorption or no, in the face of overwhelming force, it loses as Daikodan wasnt stated to have instant absorb speed

Which it would need to beat something Hirudora+ tier in firepower


Troyse22 said:


> Insane strength


There are several nin who are lower than where you put Kisame in a general tier list that are stronger than he is physically

And regardless, physical strength isnt tremendously useful at higher tier...Especially when high tiers can all pink mist kisame with their pinky or conjure something far stronger than Kisame is physically regardless


Troyse22 said:


> chakra, stamina


These are the same thing

And Biju level chakra isnt a license to the higher tiers either...A has chakra on Kisames level if not higher, way higher speed and reaction time, and comparable if not higher durability and physical strength, and no one puts him as fucking "transcendent" tier

The man is lucky to make it to high end Mid tier

Oddly enough, right where Kisame belongs...Shocker considering how comparable they are in stats aint it?


Troyse22 said:


> reactions


Kisames best reaction feat is mentally reacting to V2 Bee

His reaction time, even if you wank tf outta him and say he physically countered V2 Bee with ease....*Which btw he didnt do*...But even IF you say he did, KCMs initial speed is far outside of his reaction range even mentally...

And im not having teh exorcist debate with you for the 12th time  

Cuz otherwise, youre straight up arguing against a canon event

Which is the exact opposite of credibility


Troyse22 said:


> speed


Kisame

Speed

Good one


Troyse22 said:


> Ninjutsu


None of his ninjutsu is up to par with High Kage tiers bar MAYBE waterdome...And even then every high kage i can name can lolcounter it no diff...So how do you justify putting him ABOVE high kages when he cant even top a single one without a matchup advantage?


Troyse22 said:


> I put Kisame where I do because I believe that's where he belongs.


No

No you do not

You ignore canon information. like KCM blitzing him for example, and use logical fallacies like NLF and false equivalence all the time to suit your purposes

Making it SEEM like hes supposed to go where he isnt

Factually, Kisame is a high end Mid tier nin who can throw down with High tiers under skewed circumstances like he did against Bee

Thats the truth

In no world is he ranked above High tiers in GENERAL...In no world


Troyse22 said:


> And on a tier list I put it Rinne Obito>Kisame>Nagato


And youre wrong to do so


Troyse22 said:


> They're the gap between high kage and transcendent (high kage being people like Minato, Itachi, Tobirama, Pein)


Literally every name here would school Kisame

Every one

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 14, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Tsukuyomi is so useless against Kisame it's almost hilarious.


Bruh

How do you expect to be taken seriously?

Like for real?


Troyse22 said:


> Not sure how Tsukuyomi breaks down someone who can will himself out of unconsciousness


Unconsciousness via blunt force trauma doesnt equate to forced mental torture for 72 hours with no rest that induces a coma on someone with better genjutsu feats than Kisame and a Sharingan of his own to resist the effects, that requires the best medic in history to heal

Amazing false equivalence tho


Troyse22 said:


> Jiraiya and Kisame both have shown to have such strong wills that they can literally revive themselves in bad circumstances


Im sorry but all Kisame did was bite his own tongue to cancel an opponents jutsu

Literally no different to how Kurenai countered Itachis basic illusion back in part 1

Jman literally willed himself back from the dead...PIS as all hell mind you, but they arent the same thing

And regardless...0 people argue that Jman is tanking Tsukuyomi if caught in it

0 people


Troyse22 said:


> Tsukuyomi, a genjutsu that actually doesn't cause any physical harm isn't putting Kisame down


Physical aharm =/= mental harm...Itachi himself makes a clear distinction between the two

13 year old Kakashi took losing his goddamn eye like a champ

And Jonin Kakashi was stabbed several times by Zabuza and takes that like a champ too...he still cucked to Tsukuyomi tho

He also states Itachi can KILL with Tsukuyomi if he wants to


Troyse22 said:


> I can't see Itachi going for the whole "Stab kisame a bunch of times in tsukuyomi" tactic, as hes been stabbed on panel and it doesn't even make him flinch.


Mental pain=/= physical pain

Tsukuyomi bypasses durability this way by directly affecting your psyche


Troyse22 said:


> It's saying Ay is defeated by the constant stabbing when he has cut off his own arm and didn't give a shit


Physical pain =/=...

You know what?

Im not saying it again

You should get the picture by now


Troyse22 said:


> Their pain tolerance is insane.


Pain tolerance means jack shit against mental torture

Ask any actual interrogate and they will tell you the exact same thing


Troyse22 said:


> Itachi also doesn't know what causes Kisame mental anguish, as Kisame never showns any actual emotion or care in front of Itachi besides fighting, anger etc


Mental anguish is caused by metal attacks in the Tsukuyomi

Youre literally arguing that a dude who was caught in Aobas mental jutsu and Kurenais genjutsu is negging Tsukuyomi...

Like

What?

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 14, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Not sure how Tsukuyomi breaks down someone who can will himself out of unconsciousness, let alone actually render him unconscious to the point he can't snap himself out of it.
> 
> Jiraiya and Kisame both have shown to have such strong wills that they can literally revive themselves in bad circumstances.
> 
> ...


A strong will isn't going to help him any.

You have nothing to back up saying the difference between Kisame's & Kakashi's willpower is so massive, that Kisame would neg a technique that left Kakashi in a vegetative state for over a week. The claim is laughable tbh. 

Besides, Kakashi has far better Genjutsu feats than Kisame, who is completely featless when it comes to resisting Genjutsu

The pain tolerance argument is just as baseless. Kakashi gets his shit wrecked and keeps fighting all the time. Don't think I need to bring up the multitude of examples 

Kisame's strong will & pain tolerance are so useless against Tsukuyomi it's almost hilarious


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 14, 2018)

Yo @InfiniteHiraishin

Am i gonna get an answer for this?


WorldsStrongest said:


> Hey new guy
> 
> While i dont have any issue with some of this, the bold is...Questionable to say the least
> 
> ...



Or?

Not trying to be a dick and call you out or anything

Im just curious

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 15, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> No.
> 
> Bee escapes Nagato's grasp with BM
> 
> that doesn't equate to victory


Im glad you realize that



Troyse22 said:


> Wait watt.
> 
> He couldn't use BM vs Kisame or Nagato?


He couldnt use BM against Kisame

Yet you ignore the fact that BM would have ended the fight if he could

Then give Bee BM as an out against Nagato

And dont see anything wrong with that hypocrisy


Troyse22 said:


> And when he realized he needed to vs Kisame, it was too late as he didn't have the chakra to do it.


No...He could have and would have gone BM against Kisame before waterdome even became a thing



He was restricted due to bystanders

Like...How many times do you need this pointed out to  you before you concede?


Troyse22 said:


> And all of them together make up less than 1% of the verse


If we include fodder and civilians, i guess you have a point there

Seems like your inflating your numbers a tad tho

I was referencing people who can competently fight at Jonin tiers who can counter Kisames best tech


Troyse22 said:


> Post TS Naruto: Negged by Waterdome, Bunta is tiny in comparison, shut up and deal with it i've been down this road and you stop answering every time.


Bunta is not tiny by comparison

Youre flat out wrong and just never concede

That you are doesnt make you correct

That makes you stubborn and annoying to debate with

As you ignore evidence that is literally spoon fed to you


Troyse22 said:


> Sasuke: Negged by Waterdome, not sure how you figure he's getting out
> Sakura:
> Jman: Same as Naruto
> Oro: Same as Sasuke
> Tsunade: Same as Sakura


All of them get out via summons

WHich even if you wanna argue that a summon is sm aller than waterdome, when it straight up isnt, the user of a summoning jutsu merely has their summon fight Bee while they escape

Tho a summon merely busts the dome with their AT WORST comparable size



Troyse22 said:


> Hiruzen: Not even sure how you draw the conclusion that he can handle it
> Hanzo: Not sure how you draw the conclusion he can handle it.


Hiruzen either tags Kisame and pushes him away with Enma, like he did to 100% kurama, or pushes the ground with enma and propels himself out

For the record, Kisame beats Hiruzen in my book, but he can counter waterdome...Its not the be all end all...You overrate the fuck outta waterdome


Troyse22 said:


> Killer Bee: Not sure how, he was defeated on panel by it


Im referencing an unrestricted bee

He couldnt use BM in canon

For the 12th time


Troyse22 said:


> Itachi: Not sure how
> Yagura: Not sure how


Itachi via genjutsu making Kisame simply go the wrong way

Or he just fights Kisame while in dome and wins anyway with susanoo

Yagura with BM, same as Bee


Troyse22 said:


> Kitsuchi


You gonna argue the waterdome is bgger than the Juubi now kd?

Might as well...Youve made every other absurd claim possible



Troyse22 said:


> Minato:


Summons kid

Or he makes a clone and has teh clone escape, and summons the real minato once he does

Or he drops a FTG kunai, iot sinks to the bottom, the dome then poops it out, minato ports to it



Troyse22 said:


> Tobirama: I can actually see him pulling off a W


Really?

Of everyone there you entertain tobi the most?

Whatever

Glad youre not completely far gone then


Troyse22 said:


> Already linked you the argument of just how massive waterdome is.
> 
> Sticking your finger in your ears and yelling lalalalala doesn't make you right
> It makes you an intellectually stubborn idiot.


Troy

You call me names one more time and im putting you on ignore

And no cute little points of "oh if you improve your content" (like youre some kind of judge) and youll get taken off of it

No...When i put your ass on ignore its staying on ignore

I never do it to you yet you do it to me every second time i try to talk to you

Fucking sick of it

Period

And as to your amazing waterdome argument, like 99% of everything else you say, ive already addressed it and debunked it

Ironically, you just refuse to concede on it

Yet thats exactly what you accuse me of doing

Hence the irony


Troyse22 said:


> There's nobody bar Gyuki, Kurama or Gods who have equal or higher strength than Kisa


Almost puked

And almsot said fuckit and stopped reading

But i figured hey, ive come this far, may as well soldier through what is likely my last reply to you


Troyse22 said:


> People like you spew Kisame is a mid tier-high mid tier Shinobi
> 
> Yet you have Jonin and Low Kages beating his strongest techs that a High kage (Killer Bee) couldn't deal with


A Killer Bee who was heavily restricted

And post TS naruto may be a few tiers below Kisame, and would absolutely lose in a head to head battle, but in terms of technique (which is what im referencing when i say he can counter kisames TECHNIQUE) Bunta is not tiers below waterdome and CAN counter it

Bunta allows naruto to fight WELL outside his weight class

If you genuinely are incapable of realizing that, then whatever

Not my problem


Troyse22 said:


> Tired of explaining this to you
> 
> He blocks with Samehada.


Im tired of explaining a mountain of things to you

He had Samehada in front of him before Bee moved

, 

But regardless, i also gave Kisame the benefit of teh doubt and said he could react to Bee...That still doesnt disprove the fact KCM initial speed is too much for him as per canon


WorldsStrongest said:


> His reaction time, even if you wank tf outta him and say he physically countered V2 Bee with ease....*Which btw he didnt do*...But even IF you say he did, KCMs initial speed is far outside of his reaction range even mentally...
> 
> And im not having teh exorcist debate with you for the 12th time
> 
> ...



His reactions arent bad by mid tier standards at all, but he cant react to high tier speeds, hence why he doesnt belong well above them by a freaking tier like you claim he does


Troyse22 said:


> He's holding Samehada to the side of him prior to Bee charging, facing outward.


No he isnt


Troyse22 said:


> Are you that stu....bborn?





> Troy
> 
> You call me names one more time and im putting you on ignore
> 
> ...





Troyse22 said:


> All of his high end jutsu (Waterdome, 1000 feeding sharks, Daikodan) are all, at worst, high kage+ techs that require a very specific moveset to counter


They require a summon, or sufficient AoE, or a certain type of hax...Most if not all Mid tiers and High tiers have AT LEAST one of these...Some, like minato for example, have multiple




Troyse22 said:


> Maybe Minato can take on Daikodan with barrier too


He can actually mr sarcastic

FTG barrier would neg diff daikodan

Then again you used to claim kisame can no diff seals with his chakra absorbtion

Despite bno evidence of that claim existing either

So im not gonna waste my breath on this any further

Just know that youre wrong if you think daikodan or anything Kisame has does jack to FTG barrier 


Troyse22 said:


> He was in no way under favorable conditions vs Bee.


Stop it

Bee had fodder he needed to protect and its STATED that held him back from going BM


Troyse22 said:


> In the Narutoverse, unconsciousness is unconsciousness regardless of how it's achieved.


No

Thats your interprtation of unciousness in thsi work of fiction

Tsukuyomi is shown to be a special case, and you already know why because i already TOLD YOU why not 20 minutes ago

But low n behold...You ignored it and offered no rebuttal to that at all


Troyse22 said:


> I find it hard to believe Itachi's Tsukuyomi is the exception to the rule Kisame showed on panel


Kisame has no rule shown to resist genjutsu

Him breaking out of NOT GENJUTSU isnt a feat that translates to him RESISTING GENJUTSU

Like really now


Troyse22 said:


> You say "all he did" like it was your average feat that anyone can pull off.


Because it is...

Hence my kurenai example

Youre talking about a technique used by FUCKING AOBA need i remind you...Not exactly a sterling example of tremendous difficulty to overcome...Hell the man STATES hes not anywhere near the best with the ability he uses



Troyse22 said:


> Wasn't Kakashi referencing how Itachi could kill him whenever he wanted


 

No 


Troyse22 said:


> Regardless, Kakashi =/= Kisame.


Youre damn right

Kakashi is way better equipped to defend against Tsukuyomi

And he flopped


Troyse22 said:


> especially since there's a multiple tier gap between them.


No there isnt

You just wrongly think there is

Youd be lucky to get a full tier between the two of them

And thats with wank

I favor Kisame over Kakashi sure, but this is you doing false equivalence again if you think just because X is > Y, X can do everything Y can


Troyse22 said:


> And how is Itachi going to cause mental anguish to Kisame, please do tell me


With the 72 hours of mental torture that ignores physical durability

Itachi controls LITERALLY EVERYTHING in that illusion

And his pain tolerence aint all you crack it up to be if a punch from Gai could knock his ass out

Yet youre arguing 72 hours of torture wont replicate that :cambe


Troyse22 said:


> Stabs won't work, we've already established that.


No

Physical stabs injured him just fine

Mental stabs that deal MENTAL PAIN are a completely different thing for starters...

But fuck it, lets use your (wrong) logic and say mental pain= Physical, therefore physical defenses are a factor in astral defenses (lol btw)

, 

Imagine 100s and 100s of swords all rushing at him at once...Now imagine, that hes helpless and cant move or block ANY of them, now imagine that happens repeatedly for 3 goddamn days...72 straight hours without rest

He fucking dies 

Get over it


Troyse22 said:


> "Caught"
> 
> Lul
> 
> He was unconscious


When he fought Kurenai to or?

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 15, 2018)

Tsukuyomi is useless against Kisame? Daf*ck?


----------



## Serene Grace (Mar 15, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Will report, a scrawny white kid has no place using that


Concession accepted

You managed to reply and defend jack shit. 

Im also not no scrawny white kid, don't know where the fuck you got that from


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 15, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> He couldnt use BM against Kisame
> 
> Yet you ignore the fact that BM would have ended the fight if he could
> 
> ...



No, because either way BM wouldn't result in a victory against either of them.



WorldsStrongest said:


> He could have and would have gone BM against Kisame before waterdome even became a thing
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm aware of this, but do you think when Bee goes BM Kisame is just standing there?

If Killer Bee turned into a giant octopus Kisame would break out Ninjutsu

Or stalemate it Kakuzu style.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Bunta is not tiny by comparison
> 
> Youre flat out wrong and just never concede
> 
> ...





And there's MY evidence to MY point that you've blatantly refused to read.

Either read and refute it, or concede.

Don't do a bunch of "I'M NOT GOING TO ANOTHER THREAD HURRDURR" nonsense, stop being lazy, check the link and the arguments, quote it and tell me i'm wrong here.



WorldsStrongest said:


> All of them get out via summons
> 
> WHich even if you wanna argue that a summon is sm aller than waterdome, when it straight up isnt, the user of a summoning jutsu merely has their summon fight Bee while they escape
> 
> Tho a summon merely busts the dome with their AT WORST comparable size



They're not comparable in size.

The summons are tiny by comparison per my argument



WorldsStrongest said:


> Hiruzen either tags Kisame and pushes him away with Enma, like he did to 100% kurama, or pushes the ground with enma and propels himself out
> 
> For the record, Kisame beats Hiruzen in my book, but he can counter waterdome...Its not the be all end all...You overrate the fuck outta waterdome



That would require Enma extending 3000m+

That's not feasible.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Itachi via genjutsu making Kisame simply go the wrong way
> 
> Or he just fights Kisame while in dome and wins anyway with susanoo






And Kisame, the chakra absorbing machine can't counter a chakra construct?

Itachi is not holding Kisame back, his Susanoo is not holding back Bijuu strength.

Itachi will exhaust before Kisame gets tagged by Totsuka.



WorldsStrongest said:


> You gonna argue the waterdome is bgger than the Juubi now kd?
> 
> Might as well...Youve made every other absurd claim possible



I don't know, i've yet to compare their sizes against each other.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Of everyone there you entertain tobi the most?
> 
> Whatever
> 
> Glad youre not completely far gone then



Well if Tobirama can take a JJ 5 times before he completes a blitz, he can tag Kisame if he tries to hit Tobirama.

Tobirama would have to restrain him though, and that's a pretty tall order.



WorldsStrongest said:


> You call me names one more time and im putting you on ignor



Then stop blatantly ignoring my points and disregarding everything I say.

It's fucking annoying.

How am I supposed to have a good opinion of you if you won't read my points and consider them.



WorldsStrongest said:


> And no cute little points of "oh if you improve your content" (like youre some kind of judge) and youll get taken off of it
> 
> No...When i put your ass on ignore its staying on ignore
> 
> ...



For the record, me and DVW used to debate all the time.

He put me on ignore

Do you see me shedding tears?

Get over yourself dude 

And i'm a judge for what content I want to see, but I don't like keeping people on ignore permanently as their opinions can change, hence why I check on them every now and then to see if they've improved.

Just because someone annoys you, doesn't mean they'll be that way for the rest of their lives 

Icegaze is someone i'd never thought i'd unignore, but he's off ignore and actually posts constructively most of the time now, and (NORMALLY) he actually has something to contribute to discussions.

Anyone who ignores permanently and refuses to check into that person's content from time to time is either a pussy or needs to get their head kicked in for being a cynical fuck.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Bunta allows naruto to fight WELL outside his weight class



Well this is where the difference in opinion lies.

I don't believe a boss summon is ANY match for a true kage tier.

I consider Rasa and Mei the very bottom of Kage level.

And I don't see boss summons being any kind of threat to them.

And another thing adding the word "boss" on the front of "summon" doesn't some how make the summon stronger.



WorldsStrongest said:


> He had Samehada in front of him before Bee moved
> 
> ,



Do you not see Kisame only has the handle in front of him in those scans?
Do you not see that Samehada is then in front of Kisame after the charge?
How can you not see that?
The handle is in front of him before the charge, not the whole f'n blade



WorldsStrongest said:


> but he cant react to high tier speeds,



He did it on panel.

Your subjective opinion does not override canon feats.



WorldsStrongest said:


> or sufficient AoE



Please tell me what tech is producing the AOE to match Kisame's waterdome.

Because there's no tech that anyone under Nagato level that can produce that kind of AOE.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Kisame has no rule shown to resist genjutsu
> 
> Him breaking out of NOT GENJUTSU isnt a feat that translates to him RESISTING GENJUTSU
> 
> Like really now



Him breaking out of unconsciousness=breaking out of the unconsciousness that Tsukuyomi would supposedly cause to him.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Because it is...
> 
> Hence my kurenai example
> 
> Youre talking about a technique used by FUCKING AOBA need i remind you...Not exactly a sterling example of tremendous difficulty to overcome...Hell the man STATES hes not anywhere near the best with the ability he uses



Christ dude.

Who has shown the ability to straight up will themselves out of unconsciousness.

Who

Who

Who

Who

Who

Who

Who

Who

Who

1. Jiraiya
2. ?????????????????????????????????????????????



WorldsStrongest said:


> No



Yeah Kakashi seems to think Itachi could've just killed him
Rather than torturing him for 3 days inside a genjutsu

That doesn't = killing him inside a genjutsu

That's not even fucking possible



WorldsStrongest said:


> Kakashi is way better equipped to defend against Tsukuyomi
> 
> And he flopped



Not saying Kisame can defend against Tsukuyomi
Saying whatever Itachi does to Kisame will not work.



WorldsStrongest said:


> And his pain tolerence aint all you crack it up to be if a punch from Gai could knock his ass out
> 
> Yet youre arguing 72 hours of torture wont replicate that :cambe



Pain tolerance =/= ability to be KO'd.

Raikage was KO'd by Madara, yet his pain tolerance was so high that he could cut off his own arm without flinching, as well as tanking Amaterasu for the 10-20 seconds it was on him.

Kisame straight had his chest and stomach blown open with organs shown missing.

Yet didn't actually show any symptoms of pain (cringing, swearing etc)

All he said was "Huh, well you've certainly done it now"

That's actually a threat to Bee while he's in this state.

His pain tolerance is extraordinary, whether you like it or not.



WorldsStrongest said:


> ,
> 
> Imagine 100s and 100s of swords all rushing at him at once...Now imagine, that hes helpless and cant move or block ANY of them, now imagine that happens repeatedly for 3 goddamn days...72 straight hours without rest
> 
> ...



Yeah, being stabbed through the brain would kill just about anybody.

In Tsukuyomi 

1. It's not real
2. Itachi evidently attacks the torso and limbs from what we've seen on panel.

I'm not saying swords can't penetrate his skin
I'm saying they won't stop him or slow him down.

Like you said we saw him get stabbed on panel

And not care that a sword is sticking out of him.



WorldsStrongest said:


> When he fought Kurenai to or?



No, when he was under Aoba's jutsu.

He was presumably unconscious when Gai brought him back.

As Kisame has shown, he won't give intel willingly, and would kill himself first.

There's no way Gai would've been able to restrain Kisame in his weakened 7th Gate state (it's a miracle he was able to carry Kisame, who iirc, weighs 200+ lbs back to turtle island, but whatever)



Serene Grace said:


> Concession accepted
> 
> You managed to reply and defend jack shit.
> 
> Im also not no scrawny white kid, don't know where the fuck you got that from



There was nothing to defend against, it was just a paragraph of flame

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 15, 2018)

Itachi doesn't even need Tsukuyomi here tbh. 

Regular Sharingan Genjutsu would be enough to floor fishboy. Kisame has shown nothing to suggest he can resist it

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 15, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> No, because either way BM wouldn't result in a victory against either of them


He wouldnt defeat nagato no


But he would literally 1 shot Kisame either with a TBB that Daikodan cant absorb within any semblance of reason or logic without a NLF...Which you love i know, but sorry logical fallacies of any kind make your argument void

Or 1 shot him with the hachibi twister

Both of these options were off the table due to bystanders...Not due to anything Kisame did or possesses


Troyse22 said:


> I'm aware of this, but do you think when Bee goes BM Kisame is just standing there


Kisame can throw literally every jutsu he owns at BM Bee TWICE and it wont scratch him

Kisames best technique in terms of offence is Daikodan, im sure we at least agree on that

Daikodan, with no amp, is FAR inferior to Hirudora based on feats, as Daikodan immediately cucked to its firepower

And a TBB is far superior to hirudora, and Bee could take his own TBB and continue fighting

He could also resist the Juubis TBB

TLDR

TBB from Gyuki>>>Hirudora>>>Unamped Daikodan which is Kisames best offencive technique

In summary, he can do fuck all to BM bee even if Bee stood there and LET kisame fire off his techniques


Troyse22 said:


> And there's MY evidence to MY point that you've blatantly refused to read.


In a thread i dont give a darn about and have skimmed before and refuted your points in another thread

Basically, you think waterdome is village sized which is a load of bull if ive ever read it, as for another thing, you yourself say it has a diameter of a mere 3 KM in this very post...Thats nowhere near village sized

You debunked yourself without me doing anything 

Also ive shown you scans several times in the past that actively refute domes size

..We see the entire dome in a single scan...We ALSO see bee take up the vast majority of waterdomes are with some ink...Is Bee capable of village level sized ink clouds now troy? With a single mouthful? ...*Who isnt boss summon sized stop saying he is youre wrong*...,...The difference between Katsuyu and Mandas heads ALONE and the size of a human being, are about the same as the difference between pontas ENTIRE BODY and a human being

He is WAY smaller than boss summons

Surprising no one who glances at the manga


Troyse22 said:


> Don't do a bunch of "I'M NOT GOING TO ANOTHER THREAD HURRDURR" nonsense, stop being lazy, check the link and the arguments, quote it and tell me i'm wrong here.


Are you aware how many times i "quote you and tell you where youre wrong" only to watch you get abrasive at me for literally no reason and disagree with canon evidence that 100% debunks you

For one thing, in a past thread, i read your argument and refuted it...You just dont LIKE the fact i refuted it and wont concede

That doesnt mean i HAVENT refuted it 

Refuted it again in this thread

Just to make you feel better about yourself


Troyse22 said:


> They're not comparable in size.
> 
> The summons are tiny by comparison per my argument


No they arent, the summons are bare minimum the same size as waterdome and thus counter it

As per my CANON argument

Thats where we differ


Troyse22 said:


> That would require Enma extending 3000m+
> 
> That's not feasible.


See?

3 KM waterdome?

Even if that was true, thats not village sized...Nowhere close

So youve contradicted yourself 


Troyse22 said:


> And Kisame, the chakra absorbing machine can't counter a chakra construct?


Not before being tagged instantly by a last second totsuka blade he cant


Troyse22 said:


> Itachi will exhaust before Kisame gets tagged by Totsuka


Kisame has no feats to suggest hes avoiding a susanoo attack at the last second

before you get yourself lost in an incorrect sped scale between killer bee and him...

Bee on land>Kisame in water>Bee in water is the Correct way to look at their speeds

Otherwise, no distinction would have been made when gyuki says "hes faster than you IN THE WATER"


Troyse22 said:


> Well if Tobirama can take a JJ 5 times before he completes a blitz, he can tag Kisame if he tries to hit Tobirama


Yet you refuse to acknowledge people comparable to Tobirama are ever tagging Kisame 


Troyse22 said:


> Then stop blatantly ignoring my points and disregarding everything I say.
> 
> It's fucking annoying.
> 
> How am I supposed to have a good opinion of you if you won't read my points and consider them.



Youve said in the past you respect me as a debater, which i dont buy in the least because you regularly insult me when i never do so to you
Ive ignored literally 0 arguments youve ever made toward me...0...
Ive refuted everything you have ever raised to me, or AT THE VERY LEAST ive refuted the premise
The fact you dont like the fact ive refuted you, or dont like HOW i refuted it, doesnt mean i HAVENT refuted it 



Troyse22 said:


> For the record, me and DVW used to debate all the time.
> 
> He put me on ignore
> 
> ...


Im sorry...But are you fucking serious ?

How many times to you wave the ignore button around like a trust fund to other people? In the past 2 or 3 months im pretty sure youve "threatened" to put me on ignore like 3 times

Yet when i tell you im gonna do it to you if you dont stop with the insults, an actually valid reason to put you on ignore, you tell me to "get over myself" ?

Literally what the fuck?


Troyse22 said:


> Just because someone annoys you, doesn't mean they'll be that way for the rest of their lives


Youre not annoying

Youre derogatory and abrasive

Which is far worse

And youve been doing it to me in particular for months now


Troyse22 said:


> Anyone who ignores permanently and refuses to check into that person's content from time to time is either a pussy or needs to get their head kicked in for being a cynical fuck.


So more name calling?

Nice Troy

Didnt even last a day

P
R
O
U
D

It couldnt just be that im dealing with a person who refuses to stop being abrasive could it?

Despite teh fact ive asked them to screw off several times in teh past few months?

Why would i ever actually subject myself to that a second time?

For their benefit?

Why?

When said person doesnt even wanna debate in a polite manner for my benefit?

Nope

Sorry


Troyse22 said:


> Well this is where the difference in opinion lies.
> 
> I don't believe a boss summon is ANY match for a true kage tier


You dont need to

You just need to acknowledge that a Kage tier tech thats comparable in size to another Kage tier tech can counter one another


Troyse22 said:


> Do you not see Kisame only has the handle in front of him in those scans?


Yes

That scan is only used so you cant bullshit so far as to say Kisame had the sword by his side or on his back or some nonsense

Its the second scan thats more important


Troyse22 said:


> Do you not see that Samehada is then in front of Kisame after the charge?


Kisame has the blade in front of him before Bee moves

I dont think you know how to read a manga...Right to Left


Troyse22 said:


> How can you not see that?




How do you not know how human anatomy works based on that scan?

Back of Kisames Head pointed away from naruto = Eyes pointing toward naruto= was looking where naruto came from before he got hit


Troyse22 said:


> He did it on panel.
> 
> Your subjective opinion does not override canon feats


No actually he doesnt

He flops to the slowest speed demonstrated by KCM naruto

On panel

You just dont like the fact that he did and twist it...When all you gotta do is look at the scan and youre debunked...

Any on par with or faster than KCM narutos initial speed is blitzing Kisame with no reaction

Concede

Or you disagree with canon 


Troyse22 said:


> Please tell me what tech is producing the AOE to match Kisame's waterdome



Pains gama trio ST
Any boss summon
Kitsuchis Sando jutsu
Any BM
Hiruzens Enma staff
Kusanagi blade




Troyse22 said:


> Him breaking out of unconsciousness=breaking out of the unconsciousness that Tsukuyomi would supposedly cause to him


No

Wrong

Period

If you think a Coma and nap time are the same thing tho, i can see how you arrive at such a wrong conclusion


Troyse22 said:


> Christ dude.
> 
> Who has shown the ability to straight up will themselves out of unconsciousness


I dont care

Resisting unconsciousness doesnt save one from fucking mental damage that required the BEST MEDIC EVER to fix

Get over it


Troyse22 said:


> Yeah Kakashi seems to think Itachi could've just killed him
> Rather than torturing him for 3 days inside a genjutsu
> 
> That doesn't = killing him inside a genjutsu
> ...


Cool, so youre wrong again...

Kakashi is talking about Tsukyomi in that entire goddamn panel..>And you think he suddenly isnt just cuz?

Mental strain can easily kill someone


Troyse22 said:


> Not saying Kisame can defend against Tsukuyomi
> Saying whatever Itachi does to Kisame will not work.


And youre wrong 

Youre drawing false equivalence between physical and mental pain...When they arent the same thing

And saying if Kisame can wake up from being punched into nap time, he can wake up from being psychically tortured into nap time...When they arent the same thing

And youre saying because Kisame could resist Aobas jutsu he can resist the effects of Tsukuyomi...Do i NEED to fucking say it?


Troyse22 said:


> Pain tolerance =/= ability to be KO'd.
> 
> Raikage was KO'd by Madara, yet his pain tolerance was so high that he could cut off his own arm without flinching, as well as tanking Amaterasu for the 10-20 seconds it was on him.
> 
> ...


Dont care

Physical pain isnt mental pain

None of that is transferable to the Tsukuyomi

A prime example is A as you just stated...The man has immense pain tolerance and willpower and he cucked to basic sharingan hypnosis...Let alone Tsukuyomi


Troyse22 said:


> His pain tolerance is extraordinary, whether you like it or not.


Im aware he can take a lot of physical damage

Ive never disputed that

But his pain tolerance means nothing against illusion whether you like it or not tho


Troyse22 said:


> Yeah, being stabbed through the brain would kill just about anybody.
> 
> In Tsukuyomi
> 
> ...




Youre missing the point...For the umpteenth time

What happens in the Tsukuyomi affects you regardless of your pain tolerance

And where i was going with the whole stabbing thing, was applying youre incorrect logic of pain tolerence and physical defenses carrying over to Tsukuyomi...Which again, is wrong logic, but i used it to humor you and show you youd be wrong that Kisame could resist it even if physical defenses WERE a factor

As we see Kisame express worry over being stabbed, and we see him get fucking stabbed by a single blade

Then extrapolate what kisame would look like if he was stabbed several hundred times repeatedly over and over every second for 72 hours

...

Exactly...

therefore debunking youre claim he could resist shit because "lel pain tolerence lel"


Troyse22 said:


> Like you said we saw him get stabbed on panel


Exactly


Troyse22 said:


> No, when he was under Aoba's jutsu.
> 
> He was presumably unconscious when Gai brought him back.
> 
> As Kisame has shown, he won't give intel willingly, and would kill himself first.


Willingness is fucking irrelevant against Tsukuyomi

He would have no opportunity to break himself out of it as Kakashi states you take the full effect the instant youre caught in it

Kakashi btw, is a dude with sharingan, which itachi states would help defend against it...An advantage Kisame doesnt have...Look what happened to Kakashi


Troyse22 said:


> There's no way Gai would've been able to restrain Kisame in his weakened 7th Gate state (it's a miracle he was able to carry Kisame, who iirc, weighs 200+ lbs back to turtle island, but whatever)


This is just more wank among wank thats totally off topic to top it off

Gai cant lift Kisame?

,  

Fuck outta here

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Hazuki (Mar 15, 2018)

Seriously when i see this thread i still can't believe how Troyse22   can be considered as a logic and credit member of this board

seriously it's gonna too far from his fanboy blindness

First of all
_kisame in  the manga he *NEVER*  talk to jiraiya exept to say that he is the sannin legendary and didn't think delaying tactic woman  would succeed that easely

he never say anything else to jiraiya 

the only moment kisame talk to jiraiya was when the sannin just apear and he said " ah lord jiraiya as one of the sannin ,no matter how much of an unrivaled woman chaser you are , i didn't think our delaying tactic would succeed that easely" 
_

secondly


*is it so difficult to undertand that jiraiya was protecting naruto and sasuke in front of 2 akatsuki*_  ?

can you fight 2 strong guy and in the same time protecting 2 little kid????
jiraiya admit that he let sasuke revenge but he was still worry about him and of course he was tring to protect naruto 
so of course kisame and itachi knew that context and they knew that they can use the child to master the situation 

seriously Toyse22 you can't be serious with you argue
and the funny of it is that you use a jiraiya avatar and a sig kisame runaway just to hide behind just in case ^^

how far this forumnaruto change since 13 years ? 
i don't know but it bring me back memory when i remember the past 
_

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 15, 2018)

Hazuki said:


> Seriously when i see this thread i still can't believe how Troyse22   can be considered as a logic and credit member of this board
> 
> seriously it's gonna too far from his fanboy blindness
> 
> ...




1. Learn to speak English
2. My Jiraiya Avatar and sig are there ironically.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Mar 16, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> WS-- (On a sidenote) what do you think about Kisame vs KCM1 Naruto?


you just made @WorldsStrongest day!

I like you already.


----------



## Bonly (Mar 16, 2018)

Depends on who dies first as I dobut anyone here can take on the other two in a 2V1. I'd slightly favor the Sharingan duo just because Gaara’s and Kisame’s fighting styles don’t mix to well


----------



## The_Conqueror (Mar 16, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Anyone who ignores permanently and refuses to check into that person's content from time to time is either a pussy or needs to get their head kicked in for being a cynical fuck.


So very True


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 16, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> I made a huge mistake in the first place by putting Itachi >~ Nagato


Fair enough


InfiniteHiraishin said:


> I did not mean that KCM1 Naruto > Pain


Cool


InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Nagato/Pain is actually in my opinion one of the most downplayed villain due to Talk No Jutsu and Minato's fail-save.


I agree

Nagato, if you omit Obito, solos the rest of Akatsuki at once, Itachi included

Hes a monster

Hed be like, top 20 in the entire manga tbh...Thats just off the top of my head btw, dont take that as fact

Either way, its not a ridiculous claim

Rough scale

Kaguya
Hagoromo
Hamura
JJ Madara
Adult Naruto/Sasuke
Monstershiki (momoshiki fusion)
War Arc Naruto/Sasuke
Momoshiki/Kinshiki individually
Toneri
8G Gai
DMS Kakashi
JJ Obito
Rinnegan Mads
SM Hashirama
EMS Mads
BM Minato
BM Naruto
Rinnegan Obito (Jins)
EMS Sasuke (Juubito)
Nagato
Ish 


InfiniteHiraishin said:


> *REVISED ARGUMENT: *LET'S SAY JIRAIYA >=< KISAME, no more than a slight advantage for either side


I can legitimately get behind that as i regularly argue that the Mid tier Akatsuki and Hebi Sasuke can fight the Sannin and do very well

Be forewarned, theres a shitton of Jman wank on these forums tho

A shitton 

Usually goes hand in hand with Uchiha downplay

So, be warned, i reiterate

Dont be swayed young one

Be unbiased, let the manga do the talking


InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Six Paths dominates Sage Jiraiya


Agreed


InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Six Paths has a close call with SM Naruto,


Ehhhh

Gotta respectively say no

As i pointed out in my last post, Pain BEAT SM naruto who had a boatload of advantages 

Hes clearly portrayed above him by a decent margin

Heres my point again in quotes



> How can you argue that SM naruto is equal to Pain? When Pain beat him? Depite horrendous disadvantages like Naruto having prep time, as well as intel on most of pains abilities, Pain wasnt allowed to kill Naruto, and Pains strongest path (Deva) was on cooldown because he just saitama'd a village?





InfiniteHiraishin said:


> KCM1 Naruto is a huge upgrade, but Nagato (who even in *Edo*, is stronger than his Six Paths counterpart) stomps KCM1 Naruto (while also stomping Killer Bee yikes).


Agreed


InfiniteHiraishin said:


> I'm not even going to argue Itachi >~ Nagato again, because Edo nerf and Itachi himself can't deal with Chibaku Tensei- and he got some diversion with Naruto/Bee -- respectfully concede this one, and gotta debunk myself there


Cool


InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Itachi puts up an impressive overall display against Nagato and devises to seal him and I think this specifically gives him a strong argument for being much more capable, esp intellectually, than Kisame


Agreed


InfiniteHiraishin said:


> WS-- (On a sidenote) what do you think about Kisame vs KCM1 Naruto?


Same thing Kishimoto does



Dont know if you know what these are, but orange text means a link, click it and youll be taken to manga scans proving my point 

In terms of Naruto vs Kisame in general...Looks like this to me


Kisame vs Beginning of Part 2 Naruto or any weaker version = Kisame murders him no difficulty
Kisame vs Post Rasenshuriken Training Naruto = Kisame low-mid diffs him
Kisame vs Pain Arc Naruto= Naruto slaps him low-mid diff
And any version of naruto after that...The gap obviously gets wider and the result gets worse for Kisame


InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Thanks for your guys' responses btw, helping me a lot with power scaling and what not.


No problem 

You want my opinion on any matchup you make, feel free to tag me in a thread you make

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 16, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Dont be swayed young one
> 
> Be unbiased, let the manga do the talking
> 
> ...


yeah, I think SM Naruto > Kisame. I just wanted to see your view with the Kisame hype being thrown around. Recently Swagkage and SethTP (who are currently my two fave Youtubers still) kinda said Kisame > Tobirama, and it kinda ruffled my jimmies a lil bit NGL. Tobirama sacrificing himself to the Kinkaku Squad has definitely been so key in his downplay, but I believe it gets misinterpreted.

I also agree with your Tsukuyomi defense. Kakashi simply because of Sharingan is much more equipped to take on Genjutsu. I don't know if Samehada can save Kisame like a Bijuu can support Genjutsu-counter for a Jinchuriki. Also, Tsukuyomi is Itachi's own realm in which reality is under his own will. Unless Kisame has God-tier mental transcendence, Itachi's Tsukuyomi is pretty impressive. A genjutsu that allowed Izumi to live through an entire lifetime in I believe a billionth of a second.

Regardless, yeah don't worry I don't get phased by subjectivity. 

Idk why ya'll getting so worked up and name-calling each other. At the end of the day, it's just Naruto. Quite frankly it actually bothered me reading some of the posts. I'm new here, but not new to logic.


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 16, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> A genjutsu that allowed Izumi to live through an entire lifetime in I believe a billionth of a second.



Thank you.
Thank you.
And yes, it was a billionth of a second (a nanosecond)


----------



## Kisame (Mar 16, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> yeah, I think SM Naruto > Kisame. I just wanted to see your view with the Kisame hype being thrown around. Recently Swagkage and SethTP (who are currently my two fave Youtubers still) kinda said Kisame > Tobirama, and it kinda ruffled my jimmies a lil bit NGL. Tobirama sacrificing himself to the Kinkaku Squad has definitely been so key in his downplay, but I believe it gets misinterpreted.


I wouldn't say there is any "Kisame hype" being thrown around on the battledome.

The way I see it, the *number *of posters who hype a character up is much more determinate of overestimation/underestimation than one or two posters saying x character will defeat Goku (even if they debate that view for several pages).

Kisame is generally well regarded in the BD as an overall placement, but I would say there are a lot of misconceptions regarding his techniques and how they work.

As for Swagkage and Seth, I've seen their video. Everything they said about Kisame was on point and they were fair to him. They didn't specifically say Kisame > Tobirama but their review of Tobirama was mostly negative (and I agree it was unfair). However, that shouldn't be misinterpreted as an overestimation of Kisame but rather an underestimation of Tobirama, especially since they barely compared how they would actually clash against one another directly.


> I also agree with your Tsukuyomi defense. Kakashi simply because of Sharingan is much more equipped to take on Genjutsu. I don't know if Samehada can save Kisame like a Bijuu can support Genjutsu-counter for a Jinchuriki. Also, Tsukuyomi is Itachi's own realm in which reality is under his own will. Unless Kisame has God-tier mental transcendence, Itachi's Tsukuyomi is pretty impressive. A genjutsu that allowed Izumi to live through an entire lifetime in I believe a billionth of a second.


The "willpower" argument does make some sense theoritically, but I don't think Kishimoto intended for Tsukiyomi to be so easily defeated that way. That would mean part 1 Naruto who had unbelievable determination could tank it too. In fact, any high tier shinobi with the Will of Fire from Konoha should be able to do that as well considering the good vs evil narrative would give them extra motivation/willpower.

There used to be arguments that Minato will tank Tsukiyomi because he was tortured in the belly of the Shiki Fuujin and won't be fazed by any torture inside Tsukiyomi as he was "revived in a mentally health state".


> Idk why ya'll getting so worked up and name-calling each other. At the end of the day, it's just Naruto. Quite frankly it actually bothered me reading some of the posts. I'm new here, but not new to logic.


It makes sense to be emotionally responsive to anything you spend a lot of time doing.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 16, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Recently Swagkage and SethTP (who are currently my two fave Youtubers still) kinda said Kisame > Tobirama, and it kinda ruffled my jimmies a lil bit NGL


Take everything you hear on YT with salt

They also think itachi can fondle Nagato

And thats their wording VERBATIM btw

"Fondle"

And thats a joke stance if ive ever seen one




InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Idk why ya'll getting so worked up and name-calling each other


Lol

Id check again

Theres no "each other"

That implies a back n forth

The name calling was all one sided

Me, taking the guy who calls me a "stubborn idiot" and referring to him as "abrasive and rude" isnt name calling on my part

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## The_Conqueror (Mar 16, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Be forewarned, theres a shitton of Jman wank on these forums tho



Jiraiya is very much underrated in this forum

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 16, 2018)

The_Conqueror said:


> Jiraiya is very much underrated in this forum



I feel like there is a lot of both sides

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 16, 2018)

The_Conqueror said:


> Jiraiya is very much underrated in this forum


This is a blatant lie and you know it prof

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Kisame (Mar 17, 2018)

The_Conqueror said:


> Jiraiya is very much underrated in this forum


*Kisame


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 17, 2018)

Shark said:


> *Kisame



Your sig could have been likeable.

It could have been Itachi.

It could have been Kakashi.

It could have been Prime Hiruzen.

Instead it's -


----------



## Kisame (Mar 17, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Your sig could have been likeable.
> 
> It could have been Itachi.
> 
> ...


Sharkboy is incomparable to Sharkman.


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 17, 2018)

Shark said:


> Sharkboy is incomparable to Sharkman.



Sharkboy = young Sharkman

Just compared them


----------



## Kisame (Mar 17, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Sharkboy = young Sharkman
> 
> Just compared them


Boys and men should never be compared.

Reactions: Lewd 1


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 17, 2018)

Shark said:


> Boys and men should never be compared.



Boys = younger men

GG

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


----------



## Kisame (Mar 17, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Boys = younger men
> 
> GG


Boys are males who might or might not become men. They might die or in the case of Sharkboy be stuck in an fictional universe that does not allow time to pass and thus prevents them from ever reaching the glorious status of a man.

Sharkboy will never be a Sharkman.


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 17, 2018)

Shark said:


> Boys are males who might or might not become men. They might die or in the case of Sharkboy be stuck in an fictional universe that does not allow time to pass and thus prevents them from ever reaching the glorious status of a man.
> 
> Sharkboy will never be a Sharkman.



I'm going to purchase the rights to make another Sharkboy and Lavagirl movie and make them Sharkman and Lavawoman.

I will prove you wrong.

One day...


----------



## Kisame (Mar 17, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> I'm going to purchase the rights to make another Sharkboy and Lavagirl movie and make them Sharkman and Lavawoman.
> 
> I will prove you wrong.
> 
> One day...


We already have us a Sharkman.


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 17, 2018)

Shark said:


> We already have us a Sharkman.



"Always two there are: a master, and an apprentice."

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 17, 2018)

Shark said:


> I wouldn't say there is any "Kisame hype" being thrown around on the battledome.
> 
> It makes sense to be emotionally responsive to anything you spend a lot of time doing.


I didn’t mean just in the Battledome, Twitter/YouTube I’ve been in some convos recently. And fair enough! 


WorldsStrongest said:


> Take everything you hear on YT with salt
> 
> They also think itachi can fondle Nagato
> 
> ...


I have a huge issue w it, and I’m gonna tweet at Swag bout it since both of them respond to me every now and then— he puts Orochimaru ahead of Kisame, and Tobirama ahead of Hiruzen. Now I know I think Prime Hiruzen > Orochimaru, and I think he also believes Saru >= Oro, but I’d have to check up on it...so that’d just be illogical, because that’s him saying Kisame > Tobirama while also saying Tobirama > Hiruzen > Orochimaru > Kisame.

And I agree dude w Jiraiya avi came off wrong


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 17, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> both of them respond to me every now and then





I'd be elated if I were you. Having someone more popular than me responding to me on something like Twitter would be great.

Too bad this is the only "social media" I use


----------



## NamesClassified (Mar 17, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Take everything you hear on YT with salt
> 
> They also think itachi can fondle Nagato
> 
> ...


What video did they say this? I watched Swakage's Akatsuki ranking vid and he put Itachi bellow Nagato and Obito.


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 17, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> What video did they say this? I watched Swakage's Akatsuki ranking vid and he put Itachi bellow Nagato and Obito.


Itachi vs Pain, on Seth's channel

YO big question here: When talking about Itachi in versus battles, do you guys give him the crow with Kotoamatsukami? Because I myself do not...


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 17, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> yeah, I think SM Naruto > Kisame. I just wanted to see your view with the Kisame hype being thrown around. Recently Swagkage and SethTP (who are currently my two fave Youtubers still) kinda said Kisame > Tobirama, and it kinda ruffled my jimmies a lil bit NGL. Tobirama sacrificing himself to the Kinkaku Squad has definitely been so key in his downplay, but I believe it gets misinterpreted.
> 
> I also agree with your Tsukuyomi defense. Kakashi simply because of Sharingan is much more equipped to take on Genjutsu. I don't know if Samehada can save Kisame like a Bijuu can support Genjutsu-counter for a Jinchuriki. Also, Tsukuyomi is Itachi's own realm in which reality is under his own will. Unless Kisame has God-tier mental transcendence, Itachi's Tsukuyomi is pretty impressive. A genjutsu that allowed Izumi to live through an entire lifetime in I believe a billionth of a second.
> 
> ...



Kisame is mid tier mid kage (per general consensus)
Pein is entry level-mid tier high kage

SM Naruto is some how leagues ahead of Kisame but behind Pein to the point he can't even lift a finger vs SM Naruto (per general consensus)



Don't let @WorldsStrongest influence you. Too much of Jiraiya/Sannin wanking and Kisame downplay has influenced his opinions to the point he ignores the manga when convenient.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Don't let @WorldsStrongest influence you. Too much of Jiraiya/Sannin wanking and Kisame downplay has influenced his opinions to the point he ignores the manga when convenient.


Hey look

Blatant bull 

Coming from the guy who cant admit KCM naruto blitzed his fave on panel no less

Troy has me made out to be some kinda Kisame boogieman meanwhile im probably the fairest rater of the man 

Regularly say he can fight Sannin and give them a very solid run for their money if not win

And then he calls me a Jman wanker 

@Serene Grace wanna point out the nonsense there?

How many times do we clash on Sannin

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 17, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Hey look
> 
> Blatant bull
> 
> Coming from the guy who cant admit KCM naruto blitzed his fave on panel no less



When people say stuff like summons bust waterdome even if Ponta (lets say 1/3 the size of Bunta) is but a pebble, that's serious downplay (even if Bunta is wider than Ponta, there's no reason to believe he's wider than Ponta by over 100x.)

You say Sannin are portrayed superior to Kisame, yet blatantly ignore the fact that he challenged the man who killed the one who was portrayed as the strongest Sannin, plus his entire team.

Keep on keepin' on


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> When people say stuff like summons bust waterdome even if Ponta (lets say 1/3 the size of Bunta)


More bull

Like...Look at ponta

Anyone and i do mean ANYONE will tell you if you think he is 1/3 the size of bunta youre blind




Troyse22 said:


> You say Sannin are portrayed superior to Kisame, yet blatantly ignore the fact that he challenged the man who killed the one who was portrayed as the strongest Sannin, plus his entire team


I just said this...


WorldsStrongest said:


> Troy has me made out to be some kinda Kisame boogieman meanwhile im probably the fairest rater of the man





WorldsStrongest said:


> Regularly say he can fight Sannin and give them a very solid run for their money if not win





WorldsStrongest said:


> And then he calls me a Jman wanker


But sure, keep telling me i wank Jman

I dont ignore anything

Meanwhile you apparently ignore anything ive ever said and put peoples words in my mouth ROUTINELY and assume everything every Jman wanker said ever, to also be my opinion

I just dont agree with your nonsensical interpretation is all

Neither does anyone

Kisame challenging Hebi sasuke, who he believes to have assassinated Oro, means exactly this...

Kisame is confident that his full power can challenge Sannin tier opponents

And that's EXACTLY where i put him

But confidance =/= victory

And that instance doesn't equate to him being above the sannin

Nor does Hebi sasuke challenging the guy who dicked on Oro mean he is sannin+


Troyse22 said:


> Keep on keepin' on


Why bother?

If i said here and now that im aware Jmans hair is white, but you hear someone else say they think Jmans hair is purple, youre gonna say thats my opinion anyway 

Or lie about what youre seeing in the manga...Like ponta being 1/3 the size of bunta

So why bother?

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 17, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> More bull
> 
> Like...Look at ponta
> 
> Anyone and i do mean ANYONE will tell you if you think he is 1/3 the size of bunta youre blind





Troyse22 said:


> Lets say 5-8 Jiraiya's makes up the height of Bunta's head
> Given the distance Ponta is for Kisame in the scan I could find, Kisame (who's taller than Jiraiya iirc) takes up about 1/3-1/4 of the height of Ponta's head.
> 
> That's the truth, deal with it
> ...





Icegaze said:


> oh shit. actually i am sorry. its quite fucking huge. even if bunta was easily 3 times larger than ponta water dome is still huge.
> 
> i have to admit i am wrong. which is sad but i am.
> 
> dome could be village sized.



You're wrong @WorldsStrongest and you have to accept it.

Even operating under the assumption that Ponta is 3x smaller than Bunta, Bunta is STILL tiny in comparison to Bunta.

For those interested you can read my full debate at 

You can deny it all you want, Waterdome is an absolutely gargantuan tech.


----------



## Architect (Mar 17, 2018)

If were are talking about their heights, then Ponta being 0.33 of Bunta is lies.

He is 0.44

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 17, 2018)

Architect said:


> If were are talking about their heights, then Ponta being 0.33 of Bunta is lies.
> 
> He is 0.44



I'm unsure what you're trying to say with this 

Regardless, per my argument, people have to accept that Waterdome is a village level tech, or damn near.

Not sure why it's so unbelievable that Kisame can use techs of that magnitude given the dude ever since P2 has been area denial and massive techs.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> You're wrong @WorldsStrongest and you have to accept it.
> 
> Even operating under the assumption that Ponta is 3x smaller than Bunta, Bunta is STILL tiny in comparison to Bunta.
> 
> ...



Yup you can use me as a point of ref
I was so wrong about water dome 
No way a boss summon isn’t comfy held inside it


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 17, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> Yup you can use me as a point of ref
> I was so wrong about water dome
> No way a boss summon isn’t comfy held inside it



Sorry, I should've messaged you and asked, i'm not trying to offend you 

But it's an important discussion that I don't feel like having with every single NBD debater lol


----------



## Architect (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> I'm unsure what you're trying to say with this
> 
> Regardless, per my argument, people have to accept that Waterdome is a village level tech, or damn near.
> 
> Not sure why it's so unbelievable that Kisame can use techs of that magnitude given the dude ever since P2 has been area denial and massive techs.


which part of it is unclear?


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Sorry, I should've messaged you and asked, i'm not trying to offend you
> 
> But it's an important discussion that I don't feel like having with every single NBD debater lol



Lol oh i know 
I am just admitting again how wrong I was is all


----------



## Architect (Mar 17, 2018)

Seems the picture can't be seen.
Had to reupload it.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> You're wrong @WorldsStrongest and you have to accept it.


No troy im really not

You and icegaze agreeing on incorrect information doesnt make it fact 

If i made a thread right now and got everyone in the BD to say that Bunta is over a dozen times the size of Ponta it would mean exactly nothing to you

So pardon me if you convining icegaze to buy youre wrong opinion doesn't convince me

I have my eyes thanks

And i read the manga

In no world is Ponta as big as u think he is


Troyse22 said:


> Even operating under the assumption that Ponta is 3x smaller than Bunta, Bunta is STILL tiny in comparison to Bunta.


You can operate under any assumption you want

Just know that any assumption that has to do with Ponta being anywhere remotely close to Bunta in size is incorrect 

And literally anyone (aside from icegaze apparently) will tell you the exact same thing


Troyse22 said:


> You can deny it all you want, Waterdome is an absolutely gargantuan tech.


I never said it wasnt big

But its not as big as you wank it to be

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 17, 2018)

Kisame can solo with mid-diff. He's a tier above Minato and a few tiers above Gaara. He also counters everything Minato has. Itachi makes it a low-diff fight at most.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Creative 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 17, 2018)

Architect said:


> If were are talking about their heights, then Ponta being 0.33 of Bunta is lies.
> 
> He is 0.44


Bunta = 1700 CENTIMETRES????

Get a grip

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 17, 2018)

It's anywhere from a quarter to half the size when you're comparing the size of characters. Even at a quarter of Gamabunta's size, that still makes a boss summon ridiculously small in a technique that Kisame can make even larger. Not even sure where the idea of boss summons rivaling Water Dome in size comes from, anyway. That notion is utterly ridiculous.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Architect (Mar 17, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Bunta = 1700 CENTIMETRES????
> 
> Get a grip


What about it? 1700 cm = 17 m.
It's his official height.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 17, 2018)

Architect said:


> What about it? 1700 cm = 17 m.
> It's his official height.



LOL goddamn this is brutal.

I think the long debate is over, Waterdome is now considered a near village sized tech.

@WorldsStrongest it was a year+ long debate, @Architect's intervention has solidified my points.

Well done Architect, well fought Worlds.


----------



## Architect (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> it was a year+ long debate


none of you actually tried to check Bunta's page and then ask yourselves where did the contributors took that from

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Mar 17, 2018)

Punta wasn't even that smaller in comparison to the trees and didn't take that much time to fall from the Curving point of the dome to the floor. This shows the dome was big but not as yall dudes are making it out to be, hell *Ponta in comparison to Kisame isn't even that big* as opposed to Boss summonings that have heads that dwarf their Sannin let alone bodies that dwarf entire forrests



Troyse22 said:


> LOL goddamn this is brutal.
> 
> I think the long debate is over, Waterdome is now considered a near village sized tech.
> 
> ...


The DB isn't canon remember? Kappa


----------



## Architect (Mar 17, 2018)

This is Bunta's height in manga.

Not gonna challenge anyone's opinion on DB, but I think Bunta's and other toads' heights were taken from this kind of posture (below). Toads naturally stand on all four limbs, don't they?

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 17, 2018)

Architect said:


> This is Bunta's height in manga.
> 
> Not gonna challenge anyone's opinion on DB, but I think Bunta's and other toads' heights were taken from this kind of posture (below). Toads naturally stand on all four limbs, don't they?



So even if we ignore Bunta's DB page.

It seems perfectly feasible that 4 standing Naruto's=the height which Bunta squats

Even if we assume this is Bunta's basic height.

Ponta is STILL only 1/3-1/4x size of Bunta.

and ponta was a pebble to dome.




Serene Grace said:


> The DB isn't canon remember? Kappa



Fair enough, and even disregarding the DB page, his height is still consistent.

2158 divided by 763=2.823

So a little less than 4 Ponta's=Bunta's STANDING height.

He's still tiny in comparison to dome

By no stretch of the imagination is a summon "popping" Waterdome anymore

That time in the NBD has passed

And you have to accept it.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> LOL goddamn this is brutal.
> 
> I think the long debate is over, Waterdome is now considered a near village sized tech.
> 
> ...


Look at troy

Picking and choosing when to use the DB 



Serene Grace said:


> The DB isn't canon remember?


Right ? 

So on top of being blind hes also a hypocrite

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 17, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Look at troy
> 
> Picking and choosing when to use the DB
> 
> ...





Troyse22 said:


> Fair enough, and even disregarding the DB page, his height is still consistent.
> 
> 2158 divided by 763=2.823
> 
> ...



Stop deflecting and admit you've lost

Admit Waterdome is far, far bigger than Bunta.

Anything short of a concession is both you and Serene being intentionally intellectually ignorant.

I don't wanna hear u whine about insultsd
I don't wanna hear u whine about anything

It's over.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Stop deflecting and admit you've lost
> 
> Admit Waterdome is far, far bigger than Bunta.
> 
> ...


Tell you what troy

Lets walk into the sun together

You admit Kisame has been blitzed by KCM naruto as we see it happen *on panel*

And admit Bee is slower than A
based on *every feat and statement they both have*

And admit Daikodan doesnt saitama anything and everything ninjutsu based *because nothing supports that but NLF*

And ill admit Dome and Bunta are way closer in size than i thought, with dome actually having the edge, tho size alone wasnt my only argument for why summons top dome

Deal?

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> I don't wanna hear u whine about insultsd


Also this one is very simple

Dont insult me

And you wont here me talk about being insulted 

If youre capable of chatting without mindlessly slinging profanity, i have no issues talking whatsoever 

But if you insult me again, like youve been continually doing for months, im ignoring you

Its literally all on you

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 17, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> You admit Kisame has been blitzed by KCM naruto as we see it happen *on panel*



From what I can tell, Kisame was talking to them, and turned to leave, was in the process of leaving then got hit by Naruto, i'm genuinely not trying to be ignorant about it, it's what I can see

If Kisame was hit in the stomach, wouldn't his head and legs curl towards the punch.

It wouldn't make sense either, Kisame wouldn't be walking out on his back, he was facing the direction of the door.

But yeah, he was technically blitzed, but only because he wasn't looking and didn't have sensory abilities in that form.



WorldsStrongest said:


> And admit Bee is slower than A
> based on *every feat and statement they both have*



Feats no, but Ay definitely has the superior hype/portrayal over Bee in terms of speed.

It's funny how Ay is only arrogant when it comes to Sharingan, and not speed though.

Convenient for you right?

Ay spent most of Bee's life underestimating and sheltering him.
There's no reason to believe speed is the exception.

But, I will admit the gap isn't as large as i've made it out to be in the past.



WorldsStrongest said:


> And admit Daikodan doesnt saitama anything and everything ninjutsu based *because nothing supports that but NLF*




Saitama?

I will say, it's unlikely Kishi would draw it absorbing Indra's arrow.
However, I don't know for sure, and regardless it's not insane for me to think it can absorb TBB's and Susanoo's, as those things aren't exactly unstoppable/indestructible. Hell even lowly Kage like Rasa can stop Bijuu's, why would a mid mid kage like Kisame be an exception?



WorldsStrongest said:


> And ill admit Dome and Bunta are way closer in size than i thought, with dome actually having the edge, tho size alone wasnt my only argument for why summons top dome



No, they're not close in size, Waterdome is far larger and the evidence is being force-fed to you here.

This isn't a fucking give and take, if you're blatantly wrong about something you're wrong, there's no negotiations of "well you admit you're wrong and i'll admit I was"

That's not how these debates work


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 17, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Also this one is very simple
> 
> Dont insult me
> 
> ...



If you actually listened to evidence being fed to you I wouldn't feel the need to sling what you call insults.


----------



## Serene Grace (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> his height is still consistent.


Yes Bjuii level, his head also far dwarfs Jiraiya's entire body while  I'd say 10x at worst

Anybody with eyes can see that


Troyse22 said:


> So a little less than 4 Ponta's=Bunta's STANDING height


 

Lol no, Ponta is about as big or maybe slightly bigger than Bunta's head at worst what are you on 



Troyse22 said:


> He's still tiny in comparison to dome


Lul no.  Ponta an entirety was at best 10x bigger than Bee or his master, 

Bunta as a whole is comparable to a bjuii in size, and dwarfs Forrest completely

At worst, I'd say they're about even with Bunta slightly edging it. Dome has never received any size portrayal on that level

Also didn't take Ponta + his master to drop from the curving point of the dome to the ground, so not seeing how this thing is so big



Troyse22 said:


> 2158 divided by 763=2.823


Don't know what this means lol


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 17, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Yes Bjuii level, his head also far dwarfs Jiraiya's entire body while  I'd say 10x at worst
> 
> Anybody with eyes can see that
> 
> ...



Check @Architect posts

We were discussing Ponta and Bunta's height

I'm not addressing most of this because it has already been answered.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> From what I can tell, Kisame was talking to them, and turned to leave, was in the process of leaving then got hit by Naruto, i'm genuinely not trying to be ignorant about it, it's what I can see


And I, and several others, have walked you through it several times

And youre wrong


Troyse22 said:


> If Kisame was hit in the stomach, wouldn't his head and legs curl towards the punch.


Are you joking?

 ...

, 

Dont buy it?

Get a coke can

And punch it

The side of the can that you punch is its "face"

What happens to the can dude?

Honestly


Troyse22 said:


> It wouldn't make sense either, Kisame wouldn't be walking out on his back


Yes

Yes he was

, 

For like 3 pages

But even if we IGNORE that, 

Meaning all other evidence isnt even needed


Troyse22 said:


> But yeah, he was technically blitzed, but only because he wasn't looking


Wrong


Troyse22 said:


> Feats no


Feats yes

And no

Your RIDICULOUSLY double standard view on Taka sasuke vs V1 Bee (double standard given the stance you cling to with kisame vs kcm naruto) doesnt make him faster than A



Fresh 3T Sasuke, meaning a BETTER sasuke than the one Bee faced, , only it was a very near miss and not a dodge

Pretty clear whos faster

Further...

A outsped MS tracking, Bee didnt

A outsped Amaterasu at damn near point blank, thats faster than anything Bee has ever done


Troyse22 said:


> It's funny how Ay is only arrogant when it comes to Sharingan, and not speed though.


Its nothing to do with arrogance

A blatantly has the feats

Its not just words

If it was youd have half an argument

Against sharingan, he doesnt have feats of beating it...As he lost both times he faced it

He has the speed to AVOID a great deal of what sharingan can do, but hes not immune to it like he claimed

Hence, arrogance


Troyse22 said:


> Saitama


One punch man

Meaning solo it


Troyse22 said:


> I will say, it's unlikely Kishi would draw it absorbing Indra's arrow.


It's unlikely Kishi would show it absorbing anything remotely near a TBB

As he didnt even have JJ rinnegan users eat it

Nor did he have rinnegan or mokuton absorb susanoo

If you wanna go the "plot" route 


Troyse22 said:


> This isn't a fucking give and take, if you're blatantly wrong about something you're wrong, there's no negotiations of "well you admit you're wrong and i'll admit I was"


Likewise

Im not giving you an option either

If i was wrong about Buntas size, that doesnt debunk my every point on summons vs dome regardless...Size was 1 aspect of my argument

And likewise, youre wrong about Kisames reactions, the raikages and bees speeds, and daikodans limits


Troyse22 said:


> That's not how these debates work


Its not how anything works

As i said, i have no issues being wrong about their size comparison, even if i was wrong, whoch is tough to say given inconsistent sizes of bunta, he looks way bigger compared to Jman for instance, but if i was wrong, cool

I have other arguments

And you were wrong on the 3 things i called you on as well

It is now your turn to admit it is all 


Troyse22 said:


> If you actually listened to evidence being fed to you I wouldn't feel the need to sling what you call insults.


Theres 0 call for insults literally ever

Ive never disrespected you ever

Yet you do it all the damn time 

If you didnt, id be far more inclined to chat

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Serene Grace (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Check @Architect posts
> 
> We were discussing Ponta and Bunta's height
> 
> I'm not addressing most of this because it has already been answered.


> Using unsupported speculative calcs



Its also under the basis that Ponta and Bunta are even slightly comparable when anybody with eyeballs can see that isn't the case when the former is at worst 10x bigger than Kisame while the latter's freaking head is 10x bigger Jiraiya

You have nothing for someone who was ironically talking as if he buried an argument or something

Piss poor point that hinges on calcs, lul

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 17, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Are you joking?
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Grr that's exactly what i'm saying haha!

We didn't see him bend FORWARD against the impact

He was hit in the back so he bent backwards.

Am I missing something or are we just misunderstanding each other 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Your RIDICULOUSLY double standard view on Taka sasuke vs V1 Bee (double standard given the stance you cling to with kisame vs kcm naruto) doesnt make him faster than A



Not a double standard at all 

Sasuke LOOKED DIRECTLY AT BEE
Kisame was not looking at Naruto

There's a difference



WorldsStrongest said:


> Fresh 3T Sasuke, meaning a BETTER sasuke than the one Bee faced, , only it was a very near miss and not a dodge



Just says "about:blank" when I click the link 

I assume though you're talking about the elbow bolt dodge?



WorldsStrongest said:


> A outsped MS tracking, Bee didnt
> 
> A outsped Amaterasu at damn near point blank, thats faster than anything Bee has ever done



Didn't Bee intercept a Juubidama 

He literally caught up to it after it passed him

Sasuke was also on guard defensively vs Bee
Sasuke even disagrees with the notion that he can keep track
You're giving Sasuke an ability he himself says he doesn't have

"Karin, relay his location to us at all times"

He wouldn't say that if he felt HE could keep track of him



WorldsStrongest said:


> Its nothing to do with arrogance
> 
> A blatantly has the feats
> 
> ...



He never lost facing ordinary Sharingan.

Never.

His statement is not arrogance, it's fact.

He would've stalemated or lost a leg vs MS.
He lost to EMS Madara

If you're arguing Sharingan=Mangekyo we have a problem here.

Mangekyo is canonically far more powerful based on literally everything we've seen regarding the Uchiha



WorldsStrongest said:


> It's unlikely Kishi would show it absorbing anything remotely near a TBB



Then Kishi drew Kisame's final stand move as a fodder jutsu that can't absorb anything.

Does that make sense to you

Cause it doesn't make sense to me.

We're gonna get to a point soon where Daikodan can't even absorb Katon



WorldsStrongest said:


> As he didnt even have JJ rinnegan users eat it



Because Obito is an idiot who never once used his Rinnegan once he became a JJ
Madara was simply cocky enough to tank YFRS

Kind of a pointless argument you're making though....if JJ Rinnegan wielders can't absorb Bijuudama
How can they absorb the Shinju

Well shit if Bijuudama>Shinju (according to you) then why didn't Bee just solo the war and fire away at the Shinju

Could that be because *gasp* Shinju>Bijuudama?



WorldsStrongest said:


> I was wrong about Buntas size, but that doesnt debunk my every point on summons vs dome regardless...Size was 1 aspect of my argument



Fair enough.

Not in the mood to debate your argument about Waterdome v Summons though, just glad we put the summon wankfest to rest "Summons pop Waterdome no diff" is finally done



WorldsStrongest said:


> i was wrong,







Serene Grace said:


> > Using unsupported speculative calcs
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's not scientific calcs like you're suggesting.

It's simply stacking Shinobi who we know the height of against summons and determining the height of the summons that way, there's nothing wrong with that method since it's the only way we can determine the height of most summons in the manga.

Besides, your bible (Databook) says what it says about Bunta.

I have no interest in this tug of war though, you're blatantly wrong and Bunta isn't popping Waterdome.

Concede or i'll gladly put you on ignore right now.

Done with the whole "I'LL NEVER CHANGE MY OPINION NO MATTER WHAT EVEN IF I'M BLATANTLY WRONG" nonsense.

It's done, and i'm done letting people get away with it.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> It's not scientific calcs like you're suggesting.
> 
> It's simply stacking Shinobi who we know the height of against summons and determining the height of the summons that way, there's nothing wrong with that method since it's the only way we can determine the height of most summons in the manga.


Don't give a darn what kind of calcing it is

Did you see Kishimoto confirm Ponta to be 763? So it's literally the exact definition of speculation

Just fucking look at their size comparisons and come to a conclusion.

Bunta:  

Ponta:  , 10x at worst


Or do you want me to hold you by the diaper, put a spoon in your mouth and help you comprehend these basic scans in your face?



Troyse22 said:


> Concede or I'll gladly put you on ignore right now.


I'll take it as a concession

I also have zero fucks to give so go right ahead, lol



Troyse22 said:


> Besides, your bible (Databook) says what it says about Bunta.


Well if Bjuii's are 1700 cm then so be it. That's still hell of bigger than Ponta and bigger if not equal to the size of the dome

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 17, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> We didn't see him bend FORWARD against the impact


YES WE DO

OH MY GOD


Troyse22 said:


> He was hit in the back so he bent backwards.


NO HE WASNT

IF HE WAS WE WOULDNT SEE THE *BACK OF HIS HEAD* WHEN HE BUCKLES


Troyse22 said:


> Not a double standard at all


It very much so is

Sasuke is taken off guard by Bee feinting him with partner method, he then attacks sasuke from his blindspot on top of that

You treat it as a blitz 

Kisame is staring at Naruto having a conversation with him when he is hit

You argue up down left and righthe was facing away and therefore CANT be a blitz 


Troyse22 said:


> Didn't Bee intercept a Juubidama


That was being slowed by the entire SA and has nothing to suggest its faster than amaterasu anyway


Troyse22 said:


> Sasuke even disagrees with the notion that he can keep track


NO HE DOESNT HOLY SHIT

He states the EXACT opposite

"

Then we have the small issue of him having a 

Like dude...

How many times do you say Feats>Statements?

And yet here...Youre using the opposite 

And to make matters worse...You are picking and choosing the words froma statement and avoiding context...


Troyse22 said:


> He never lost facing ordinary Sharingan.


He referenced sharingan in general

So am i

Mangekyo>3T...Youd be an idiot to suggest otherwise

But he still loses to sharingan regardless of it being mangekyo or not


Troyse22 said:


> Then Kishi drew Kisame's final stand move as a fodder jutsu that can't absorb anything.


Thats not what im saying at all

We are back to the putting words in my mouth part of our debates...Lovely


Troyse22 said:


> Kind of a pointless argument you're making though


YOU made it

You brought up "what would kishi do" im literally just saying why thats a dumb point to make


Troyse22 said:


> Well shit if Bijuudama>Shinju (according to you) then why didn't Bee just solo the war and fire away at the Shinju





Troyse22 said:


> Not in the mood to debate your argument about Waterdome v Summons though, just glad we put the summon wankfest to rest "Summons pop Waterdome no diff" is finally done


Whatever

As i said

If im wrong on sizes, which im not even sold on it yet given other instances of Bunta compared to TALLER characters than naruto, but even IF im wrong, it means nothing to my point

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Miserea (Mar 17, 2018)

I'm personally somewhere in the middle here on what size water dome is vs bunta vs a village, but regarding the idea that a summon itself would "pop" it; wouldn't the water just be displaced outwards and make the dome accordingly bigger? The amount of water is the same as before, just now there's a foreign body inserted inside. Same as raising the water level of a bath tub when you get in.



InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Itachi vs Pain, on Seth's channel
> 
> YO big question here: When talking about Itachi in versus battles, do you guys give him the crow with Kotoamatsukami? Because I myself do not...



I'm new to this forum as well, but I've actually never seen this brought up anywhere. I think firstly, if the scenario is Itachi in character, he def won't use it as he kept it for the specific purpose of using it as Shisui intended. 

If not..that's interesting to think about. It's once per decade use, and seems like he does need to program it, and we don't really know how long that takes. He put it inside Naruto on a whim, but he could've very likely had it prepped already intending to use it on Sasuke himself since he'd already been thinking about Sasuke's potential to attack the leaf.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 18, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> You admit Kisame has been blitzed by KCM naruto as we see it happen *on panel*
> 
> And admit Bee is slower than A
> based on *every feat and statement they both have*
> ...



@Troyse22 

Waiting on these as well

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 18, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> @Troyse22
> 
> Waiting on these as well



Kisame was def blitzed due to being turned around, that's inarguable.

Bee and Ay are closer in speed than i've made it out to be in the past, that I concede

Kisame's statement supports it
Even fanfic Databook supports it

But I can't see Kishi drawing Daikodan absorbing IA, but it logically SHOULD.

But Kishi will simply cover Sasuke in his impenetrable plot armor.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Mar 18, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Grr that's exactly what i'm saying haha!
> 
> We didn't see him bend FORWARD against the impact
> 
> ...



If a person bends forward we would see the back of their head.
We see the back of Kisame's head. 

How is this so hard for you?

What is missing for you?


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 18, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame was def blitzed due to being turned around


Wrong Troy

Try again

He was blitzed, and he was also looking at him

Walked you through this less than 12 hours ago

No excuses

Just concede


Troyse22 said:


> Bee and Ay are closer in speed than i've made it out to be in the past, that I concede


No

Wrong again

Not what youre supposed to say

Youre supposed to say, A is faster

Because literally everything in the manga says he is

Walked you through that as well


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame's statement supports it
> Even fanfic Databook supports it


Funny how you reference the DB when its convenient for you

Yet in any other circumstance you are ready to burn the witches when it comes up

And no...Kisames statement doesnt support it absorbing anything and everything...

If thats the case Madaras PS oneshots everything hurr

You cant take hyperbolic confidence as factual evidence...Especially when you have 0 concrete evidence



Meaning if hirudora was a ninjutsu attack, even if Daikodan tried to absorb it, theres no guarantee itd be fast enough to overpower it before disintegrating

Let alone techniques vastly more powerful than Hirudora...Like a TBB or PS for instance


Troyse22 said:


> But I can't see Kishi drawing Daikodan absorbing IA, but it logically SHOULD.


No it logically shouldnt

Are you aware what you just stated?

Are you aware the gargantuan amount of chakra in terms of sheer volume that was behind that IA?

Youre talking Juubi + Levels after accounting for Rinnegan Sasuke pouring his energy into it as well...

And after that technique he was gassed...MEaning it was MOST of his own energy, meaning youre looking at a sizable fraction of the fucking sage of six paths chakra in a single attack...Like 30% or higher of HAGOROMO

And you think a decent suiton technique is topping it?

No...Absolutely not

Add to that Daikodan is AT BEST Island level...And even thats a stretch given it lost to hirudora which is Island level in AoE only

Meanwhile IA is a continental attack if not higher...

Want a number to compare those levels of force?

Daikodan= Island level (*with wank*) = 100 Gigatons at maximum

IA = Continental level (bare minimum) = 4.5 Petatons

Fyi, 1 Petaton = 1,000,000 Gigatons

Just to give you an idea of the sheer difference in scale of the 2 techniques

Definition of NLF to imply daikodans auxiliary effect would even dent IA







Troyse22 said:


> But Kishi will simply cover Sasuke in his impenetrable plot armo


There are about a million reasons why Daikodan cucks to anything Rinnegan sasuek has

And exactly 0 of those reasons are due to plot

Cute try tho

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

If Hirudora was a ninjutsu it would 100% be absorbed by Daikodan no arguments, the shark will get bigger and stronger as it should.

The whole point of Daikodan losing was that Hirudora had no chakra, that was the implication of that whole clash.

Daikoudan doesn't have to deal with the firepower of a technique as long as it has chakra.

Beating Daikodan requires jutsu with special properties that circumvent the absorption process and move on to the "overpowering" stage.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> Beating Daikodan requires jutsu with special properties that circumvent the absorption process and move on to the "overpowering" stage.


No it doesnt

If a jutsu is sufficiently more powerful than base daikodan, itd just blow Daikodan away like Hirudora eventually does

Hence why i said anything stronger than Hirudora (hirudora+) would beat it

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No it doesnt
> 
> If a jutsu is sufficiently more powerful than base daikodan, itd just blow Daikodan away like Hirudora eventually does
> 
> Hence why i said anything stronger than Hirudora (hirudora+) would beat it


Unless those said techniques don't have chakra in them they're not gonna beat Daikodan.

"The stronger the opponent's technique, the bigger it gets"

The bigger the better. Daikodan has the special property of performing _better _against stronger techniques.

Daikodan does have a "base strength" level but the whole point of the jutsu is that it avoids the power clash because it will just absorb the jutsu. The opposing jutsu will need to circumvent the absorption process in order to move on to the next phase of direct power comparison.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> If Hirudora was a ninjutsu it would 100% be absorbed by Daikodan no arguments, the shark will get bigger and stronger as it should.
> 
> The whole point of Daikodan losing was that Hirudora had no chakra, that was the implication of that whole clash.
> 
> ...


That's assuming that's it's more like Preta path than like Samehada.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> That's assuming that's it's more like Preta path than like Samehada.


I'm not assuming anything, what have I said that is actually wrong.

Daikodan and Samehada are not the same and here's a post I made regarding that


> Samehada doesn't get stronger by absorbing the jutsu, Daikoudan does. They're incomparable because they're absorption doesn't serve the same purpose; *Samehada's is to weaken the opponent by stealing their chakra* *whereas Daikoudan's is to strengthen itself.*
> 
> Kisame said "the bigger the jutsu the stronger it gets" implying "the bigger the better".
> 
> ...



So they are quite different.

Regardless, just because two things have some similarities, it doesn't = they must share other properties too.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> Unless those said techniques don't have chakra in them they're not gonna beat Daikodan.


They can just brute force through it if the difference in power is wide enough


Shark said:


> "The stronger the opponent's technique, the bigger it gets"


Yes, but theres a limit

Like how samehada has one, despite the fact Kisame states " i grow stronger IN DIRECT PROPORTION TO MY OPPONENT" and he does this through samehada...And samehadas limit is a V1 cloak...

So..."The stronger my opponent is"...ISnt accurate at all...As theres a very clear ceiling on that statement by feats

Same with Daikodan

Hirudora overpowered it with ease

Therefore, anything Hirudora+ and chakra based is doing the same

Anything Hirudora or Less and chakra based? I have no qualms with it beating said technique

Imo, Daikodan genuinely does trump the vast majority of ninjutsu in the franchise, but to be fair, most techniques are fodder, its just not up to snuff with the higher tier stuff


Shark said:


> Daikodan does have a "base strength" level but the whole point of the jutsu is that it avoids the power clash because it will just absorb the jutsu


Yes

And i have literally never in my life disputed that

But it also has defined limits

Kisames reaction to hirudora implies that the absorption process is gradual, and not instantaneous, meaning if Daikodan cant eat enough chakra from the opposing technique faster than the opposing technique can push Daikodan, its gonna lose


Shark said:


> The opposing jutsu will need to circumvent the absorption process in order to move on to the next phase of direct power comparison


Which it can do via brute force in sufficient quantities

Maybe this will help get across my point...Numbers...


Say Daikodan has a base power of 50, and absorbs 10 power from opposing ninjutsu per second of contact and adds that to its own base power

Now say The opposing Technique is a ninjutsu, and has a power of 175

They clash...And as shown with Hirudora, a clash with Daikodan is a brief clash...But just for fun...Lets say the clash lasted 5 whole seconds, it takes opposing techniques 5 entire seconds to push through Daikodan and tag Kisame like Hirudora does...Which i think is an extremely generous time frame

So we have Daikodan (50) + 10 of per second contact

And Opposition (175) - 10 per second of contact

At the end of 5 seconds...We have

Amped Daikodan (100) as it stole 50 power from Opposition

And Opposition (125) as it lost 50 power to daikodans effect

So...Opposition would still win in the end

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> They can just brute force through it if the difference in power is wide enough


Nope. The power gap only matters if the jutsu has a way around the absorption. Otherwise it will just serve to make the shark bigger and stronger. Just like Kisame said. Just like the DB says.


> Yes, but theres a limit
> 
> Like how samehada has one, despite the fact Kisame states " i grow stronger IN DIRECT PROPORTION TO MY OPPONENT" and he does this through samehada...And samehadas limit is a V1 cloak...
> 
> ...


He does grow stronger in direct proportion to his opponent: The more chakra the opponent has the more chakra there is for Kisame to steal.

The "limit" in this case for Samehada is _*how much it can take in one swipe*_. Kisame was talking about a _*prolonged fight*_ where he could keep absorbing chakra with _*many swipes *_and that is why that statement was made.

Kisame was referencing Samehada's overall influence on a battle where it's limit per swipe was irrelevant to the point he was making.

What we should actually be comparing is _one swipe of Samehada_ *vs* _one jutsu clash with Daikoudan_:
Kisame said regarding Samehada: *It can only absorb 6-tails.* 
Kisame said regarding Daikoudan: *It gets stronger the stronger the jutsu it's facing.*

So from Kisame's own words they're not really the same.

Samehada and Daikodan are not the same and they are not comparable, here are more differences: 





> Samehada doesn't get stronger by absorbing the jutsu, Daikoudan does. They're incomparable because they're absorption doesn't serve the same purpose; *Samehada's is to weaken the opponent by stealing their chakra* *whereas Daikoudan's is to strengthen itself.*
> 
> Kisame said "the bigger the jutsu the stronger it gets" implying "the bigger the better".
> 
> ...



So no.


> Hirudora overpowered it with ease
> 
> Therefore, anything Hirudora+ and chakra based is doing the same


Hirudora would never have won if it was made of chakra...that was the whole point of the clash.
Afterwards Gai explains his jutsu "wasn't made of chakra" he doesn't say "My jutsu overpowered yours".

Heck, if all it took was more firepower what was the pint in Hirudora not having any chakra in the first place since it had enough power to overcome it anyway? And why would Kisame and Gai *both *comment on an irrelevant fact?


> Anything Hirudora or Less and chakra based? I have no qualms with it beating said technique
> 
> Imo, Daikodan genuinely does trump the vast majority of ninjutsu in the franchise, but to be fair, most techniques are fodder, its just not up to snuff with the higher tier stuff


There are many techniques that can circumvent and counter Daikodan, but one way or another they all have ways to bypass the absorption.


> Yes
> 
> And i have literally never in my life disputed that
> 
> ...


Preta path's absorption is also not instantaneous, that doesn't mean any damage will be received during the period of absorption.


> Which it can do via brute force in sufficient quantities


You can't circumvent *chakra absorption *with *more chakra*.

Every ninjutsu has certain brute force/destructive capacity but since it is made of *chakra*, absorbing that chakra will circumvent the force or damage the technique is supposed to inflict. That's the whole point of *chakra absorption*.


> Maybe this will help get across my point...Numbers...
> 
> 
> Say Daikodan has a base power of 50, and absorbs 10 power from opposing ninjutsu per second of contact and adds that to its own base power
> ...


_"The stronger the jutsu the bigger it gets"_

So Daikodan will absorb the whole 175

Amped Daikodan (225)

Opposition (0)

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> "The stronger the jutsu the bigger it gets"



_"Itachi is invicible"_


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> _"Itachi is invicible"_


Actually the equivalent of that would be _"Daikoudan is invincible"_

"The bigger the jutsu the bigger it gets" is a _*description of the mechanics of the technique*_.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> Actually the equivalent of that would be _"Daikoudan is invincible"_
> 
> "The bigger the jutsu the bigger it gets" is a _*description of the mechanics of the technique*_.



NLF
How does that make sense to you?
Daikodan does _not_ have infinite absorption capabilities on chakra based attacks.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> Actually the equivalent of that would be _"Daikoudan is invincible"_
> 
> "The bigger the jutsu the bigger it gets" is a _*description of the mechanics of the technique*_.


_"It's called the Yata Mirror and is said to deflect all things."
_
So I guess Daikodan absorbs all Ninjutsu in it's path, and Yata Mirror deflects every attack in the series

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> NLF
> How does that make sense to you?
> Daikodan does _not_ have infinite absorption capabilities on chakra based attacks.


You're missing the point.

If someone has an ability that negates chakra and states that it's better if there is more chakra then it is what it is.

You're focusing too much on naming what a fallacy it could be to justify ignoring how the jutsu actually works.

It would be fallacious to claim that Daikoudan cannot be defeated by any ninjutsu.

That's all.


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> You're missing the point.
> 
> If someone has an ability that negates chakra and states that it's better if there is more chakra then it is what it is.
> 
> ...



But what you're saying is that Daikodan has infinite absorption. That in itself is NLF


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> _"It's called the Yata Mirror and is said to deflect all things."
> _
> So I guess Daikodan absorbs all Ninjutsu in it's path, and Yata Mirror deflects every attack in the series


Daikoudan does not absorb all ninjutsu because *not all ninjutsu are absorbable*.

Yata mirror does not deflect all ninjutsu because not all ninjutsu are *deflectable*.

Daikoudan has a special property that negates chakra based ninjutsu.

What happens when there is more chakra?

It gets bigger.

It doesn't "*still absorb it*"

It's _*even better when there is more chakra*_.

That's how the technique works.

I know you don't like it.

But it is what it is.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

Kamui phases through all physical attacks, can you pack in a physical attack powerful enough to affect Tobi when he's intangible?

No?

"B-but no limits fallacy!!!"

"You're saying Tobi's Kamui  has no limit!!"


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> So from what I understand, you're saying Daikodan can absorb a BD with no trouble?
> 
> I agree with what @WorldsStrongest says about Daikodan. I can get behind it being able to absorb attacks on the level of Hirudora given the opposition is made of chakra. However, a BD is just insane levels of power for Daikodan.


If it explodes on contact then no it cannot be absorbed.

If it doesn't, then yes.

Also I have a question for you:

Kamui phases through physical attacks, can you pack in a physical attack powerful enough to overcome Tobi when he's intangible?


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> If it explodes on contact then no it cannot be absorbed.
> 
> If it doesn't, then yes.
> 
> ...



No you can't attack him.

His limit is being inside another dimension. If you're in the dimension, you can hit him.
He also has 5 minute limit


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> Daikoudan does not absorb all ninjutsu because *not all ninjutsu are absorbable*.
> 
> Yata mirror does not deflect all ninjutsu because not all ninjutsu are *deflectable*.
> 
> ...


Yata Mirror doesn't deflect all Ninjutsu, it deflects *all things*


----------



## Architect (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> grow into a _galaxy sized shark_

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> No you can't attack him.


So you agree that the strength of the physical attack doesn't make a difference with Kamui?

No limits fallacy? 


> His limit is being inside another dimension. If you're in the dimension, you can hit him.
> He also has 5 minute limit


That's not a "limit". That's like me saying the "limit" to Daikoudan is an attack that bypasses the absorption like Deidara's explosives or Jinton. Those aren't limits those are "ways around the technique cause I know I can't actually overpower it". Which is my whole point.

You're dancing around the same question you were asking me.

The amount of chakra makes no difference to Daikoudan.

The amount of physical damage make no difference to Kamui.

Oh look "no limits fallacy"...

The "5 minutes" and "circumventing absorption" is what you actually need to do to overcome the technique, they're the equivalent factors here.

If you want to beat Daikoudan use a jutsu with special properties that finds a way around the absorption.

If you want to beat Kamui, find a way to either outlast it's limit (which is literally admitting you can't beat the actual intangibility property of the jutsu head on) or find your way into his dimension.

You don't overpower Kamui with more physical attacks.

You don't overpower Daikoudan with more chakra.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Yata Mirror doesn't deflect all Ninjutsu, it deflects *all things*


Kamui phases through physical attacks, can you pack in a physical attack powerful enough to overcome Tobi when he's intangible?


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark is soloing this discussion lul


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> Kamui phases through physical attacks, can you pack in a physical attack powerful enough to overcome Tobi when he's intangible?


How is this at all relevant? Intangibility is a hax that can't be overcome with stats. 

I hope you're not trying to say just like Kamui has no limit to what attack it can phase through, that Daikodan has no limit to what it can absorb


----------



## Serene Grace (Mar 18, 2018)

In theory the amount of chakra Daikodan should be able to absorb is endless. The problem is the _rate_ at which it absorbs the chakra not the quantity it can/should be able to absorb. If it does not absorb a technique fast enough, it leaves an opportunity for that technique to destroy Daikodan before it finishes absorbing it or before it even gets the chance to. Techniques like TBB's can be absorbed by Daikodan, just that the TBB would destroy Daikodan before it even got a chance to absorb it.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> How is this at all relevant? Intangibility is a hax that can't be overcome with stats.
> 
> I* hope you're not trying to say just like Kamui has no limit* to what attack it can phase through, that Daikodan has no limit to what it can absorb


So you are saying Kamui has no limit.

But isn't that a "no limits fallacy"?


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> So you are saying Kamui has no limit.
> 
> But isn't that a "no limits fallacy"?


Kamui has no limits to what it can phase through, but it's still limited to what it's shown. I already said Kamui has nothing to do with stats. Energy absorption on the other hand, is directly related to stats.

It doesn't matter how strong the Jutsu fired at an intangible Obito is, because he doesn't actually interact with said energy. Meanwhile, Daikodan has to come into contact with the energy and absorb it

So, saying Obito can phase through a juubidama isn't a nlf, but saying Daikodan can absorb a Juubidama is obviously a nlf. I can give a better explanation if ya want


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Kamui has no limits to what it can phase through, but it's still limited to what it's shown. I already said Kamui has nothing to do with stats. Energy absorption on the other hand, is directly related to stats.
> 
> It doesn't matter how strong the Jutsu fired at an intangible Obito is, *because he doesn't actually interact with said energy. Meanwhile, Daikodan has to come into contact with the energy and absorb it*
> 
> So, saying Obito can phase through a juubidama isn't a nlf, but saying Daikodan can absorb a Juubidama is obviously a nlf. I can give a better explanation if ya want


You see you're drawing the wrong link here...

The two techniques nullify physical attacks and chakra, respectively.

Daikoudan through absorption and Kamui through phasing.

Daikoudan having to *touch *to do that has no bearing on it's actual abillity to absorb because it does not *face the damage *in the first place. That's just the *prerequistie *to absorb, as it cannot absorb things *from a distance*.

*Physical contact *is the requirement to *nullify chakra attacks*.

Daikoudan doesn't have to overcome anything.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> You see you're drawing the wrong link here...
> 
> The two techniques nullify physical attacks and chakra, respectively.
> 
> ...


Two completely different types of abilities. Phasing has nothing to do with dc & durability, energy absorption does. 

You're saying Daikodan has no limit to what it can absorb, because it's never shown a limit. That's exactly what a nlf is. Things are limited to what they've shown they could do

If we were to accept Daikodan as having unlimited absorption abilities, then we'd also have to accept other stupid shit like Yata Mirror deflecting all things. Both are equally dumb, which is why the abilities have been capped at a certain level


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Two completely different types of abilities. Phasing has nothing to do with dc & durability, energy absorption does.


Of course they are different abilities but that's not the point...

The point is I'm asking you whether Kamui's phasing can be overpowered and you said no.

Why are you not willing to accept that you can overpower it?

Let me answer for you: Because the *power *of the technique has no effect on the ability.

The same with Daikodan, in fact with Daikodan it's *better *when there is more chakra not worse nor the same.

Daikodan: absorbs 100 pts, gets bigger
Daikodan: absorbs 200 pts, gets even bigger

Kamui: phases through 100 pts
Kamui: phases through 200 pts all the same

The only mention we have of Daikoudan having to deal with stronger Jutsu is that it's _*even better for Daikodan*_.

Yet you somehow interpret "better" as "worse"...


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> Of course they are different abilities but that's not the point...
> 
> The point is I'm asking you whether Kamui's phasing can be overpowered and you said no.
> 
> ...


And the point I'm trying to get across is; in a battledome setting, we can't assume something has no limits just because it hasn't been explicitly shown. For the sake of debate purposes, we put a cap on things. It's the best course of action 

Feel free to disagree, but don't be surprised when people claim nlf. It's a lot easier to debate when abilities are given a limit, rather than when they aren't and people can argue that because Daikodan hasn't shown a cap to what it can absorb that it's perfectly fine to say it would absorb universal big bangs 

Out of curiosity though, what do you think would happen if Daikodan came into contact with the Yata Mirror?


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> And the point I'm trying to get across is; in a battledome setting, we can't assume something has no limits just because it hasn't been explicitly shown. For the sake of debate purposes, we put a cap on things. It's the best course of action


But we already assume Kamui has no limits in the BD. You don't have to put a cap on things since there are other ways around the jutsu.


> Feel free to disagree, but don't be surprised when people claim nlf. It's a lot easier to debate when abilities are given a limit, rather than when they aren't and people can argue that because Daikodan hasn't shown a cap to what it can absorb that it's perfectly fine to say it would absorb universal big bangs


The reason I have my argument isn't because Daikoudan "hasn't shown a cap" but it's rather how I believe the jutsu actually works.


> Out of curiosity though, what do you think would happen if Daikodan came into contact with the Yata Mirror?


Daikoudan clashes with the mirror but eventually gets tanked.

The Yata mirror can't be absorbed because it's not a chakra construct (and even Susano'o which is made of chakra was not absorbed by Hashirama's tree so it seems to have some "anti absorption" inherent characterestic).

In order for Daikoudan to beat something it can't absorb it would need to have enough firepower to win. In my opinion Daikoudan being Kisame's trump card and being huge in size should pack some impressive firepower but Susano'o has better defensive feats (Hirudora which is > Daikoudan) and hype whereas Daikoudan's most impressive aspect is it's absorption.

I would say Yata mirror isn't needed for Susano'o.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> But we already assume Kamui has no limits in the BD. You don't have to put a cap on things since there are other ways around the jutsu.
> 
> The reason I have my argument isn't because Daikoudan "hasn't shown a cap" but it's rather how I believe the jutsu actually works.
> 
> ...


Kamui has limits too. Putting a cap on stuff is much better than the alternative 

What about Daikodan makes you think it should be considered hax? 

But what if it was made of Chakra and was absorbable? Would unlimited absorption overcome a shield that "deflects all things"?


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> So you agree that the strength of the physical attack doesn't make a difference with Kamui?
> 
> No limits fallacy?
> 
> ...



But the problem is that Obito isn't really phasing through anything; his projection is. That part of his body is in boxland. I could agree if Obito were actually in one dimension.

Essentially that version of Kamui is an advanced form of self teleportation that makes it seem as if Obito is rejecting attacks becase he's a magical ghost. His body isn't there, so you can't claim it's NLF because that portion of his body is located in boxland, thus it is prone to any attack that is there.

That's like saying Flying Raijin is NLF because the user can't get hit once they teleport.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> What about Daikodan makes you think it should be considered hax?


I don't think Daikoudan as an overall technique is actually that hax if at all.

Remember that at the end of the day it is an offensive jutsu and it's goal is to harm the opponent.

There are many techniques that can defeat it one vs one and there are defenses which could handle the damage.


> But what if it was made of Chakra and was absorbable? Would unlimited absorption overcome a shield that "deflects all things"?


I don't know what would happen then, it's like the unstoppable force vs an immovable object.

If it's made of chakra then how strong the mirror's defense makes no difference, and since Daikoudan is an attack it will get deflected so...

Also, in the scenario you outlined Preta path would absorb the mirror just fine, Daikoudan would face the problem of being an attack which is the condition for it to be negated by Yata mirror.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> But the problem is that Obito isn't really phasing through anything; his projection is. That part of his body is in boxland. I could agree if Obito were actually in one dimension.
> 
> Essentially that version of Kamui is an advanced form of self teleportation that makes it seem as if Obito is rejecting attacks becase he's a magical ghost. His body isn't there, so you can't claim it's NLF because that portion of his body is located in boxland, thus it is prone to any attack that is there.
> 
> That's like saying Flying Raijin is NLF because the user can't get hit once they teleport.


Wait so you're saying if Obito could remain intangible but not through sending his body to another dimension but actually through some sharingan magic you could actually overcome the intangibility with a very powerful physical attack?

You're saying _phasing _can be _overpowered by a physical attack_ powerful enough as long as it's not via sending the body to another dimension?


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> Wait so you're saying if Obito could remain intangible but not through sending his body to another dimension but actually through some sharingan magic you could actually overcome the intangibility with a very powerful physical attack?
> 
> You're saying _phasing _can be _overpowered by a physical attack_ powerful enough as long as it's not via sending the body to another dimension?



No, I would agree that some NLF BS is going on with that Kamui


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> No, I would agree that some NLF BS is going on with that Kamui


I'm not following.

Let's say Obito's phasing is not through sending parts of his body to boxland. Instead it's just his MS ability that allows him to be intangible.

Is there a physical attack powerful enough to overcome the phasing?


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> I'm not following.
> 
> Let's say Obito's phasing is not through sending parts of his body to boxland. Instead it's just his MS ability that allows him to be intangible.
> 
> Is there a physical attack powerful enough to overcome the phasing?



No.

I agree that, in the hypothetical situation you described, Kamui would be some NLF garbage unless Kishi made some counter for it.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> No.
> 
> I agree that, in the hypothetical situation you described, Kamui would be some NLF garbage unless Kishi made some counter for it.


So what difference would it make if the phasing is done by sending the body to the other dimension?

It is still phasing.

Can you overpower Obito's Kamui with a very powerful physical attack?


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> So what difference would it make if the phasing is done by sending the body to the other dimension?
> 
> It is still phasing.
> 
> Can you overpower Obito's Kamui with a very powerful physical attack?



Holy crap m8...

Obito himself is not phasing anything. He is teleporting the part of his body that would be attacked into his pocket dimension. He projects an illusion as he is doing so to make it look like he is phasing. That projection may very well be part of the technique.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Holy crap m8...
> 
> Obito himself is not phasing anything. He is teleporting the part of his body that would be attacked into his pocket dimension. He projects an illusion as he is doing so to make it look like he is phasing. That projection may very well be part of the technique.


...It's pretty much the same thing, it achieves the exact same purpose which is *negating physical attacks*. That's the only comparison that we should be concerned about here. Whether he is actually phasing or sending parts of his body to boxland physical attacks are negated by virtue of the final product of the technique

You're not understanding what I'm trying to get at:

There is a limit when something beats another by *overpowering* it.

There is no limit when something beats another by outright *negating* it.

In the latter case, you have to find ways around the technique by not using what it negates.


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> ...It's pretty much the same thing, it achieves the exact same purpose which is *negating physical attacks*. That's the only comparison that we should be concerned about here. Whether he is actually phasing or sending parts of his body to boxland physical attacks are negated by virtue of the final product of the technique
> 
> You're not understanding what I'm trying to get at:
> 
> ...



Back to my Flying Raijin comparison. When you teleport, you can't be hit becaue you're in a different position entirely. Same with Obito. It's just teleportation.

Yeah, but that assumes that Daikodan can immediately negate _any_ Chakra-based attack/structure immediately, which is where  disagree with you.

If Daikodan was stated to have instant absorption, I would have no arugment.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Back to my Flying Raijin comparison. When you teleport, you can't be hit becaue you're in a different position entirely. Same with Obito. It's just teleportation.


I already explained to you that phasing and teleportation are pretty much the same in the fact that they both *negate physical attacks*.

You're still not answering my question: Can you launch a physical attack powerful enough to overcome phasing?



> Yeah, but that assumes that Daikodan can immediately negate _any_ Chakra-based attack/structure immediately, which is where  disagree with you.
> 
> If Daikodan was stated to have instant absorption, I would have no arugment.


The only person making an assumption that Daikoudan taking time to absorb means it has to face the firepower of the jutsu is you.

When Preta absorbs jutsu, does he do it instantly or does the jutsu take time to get absorbed?


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> I already explained to you that phasing and teleportation are pretty much the same in the fact that they both *negate physical attacks*.
> 
> You're still not answering my question: Can you launch a physical attack powerful enough to overcome phasing?



I answered you multiple times but okay...

You can't.

If you want to say Flying Raijin and Kamui have the same properties, and according to you Kamui is NLF, Flying Raijin is NLF. Alright.



Shark said:


> The only person making an assumption that Daikoudan taking time to absorb means it has to face the firepower of the jutsu is you.



@WorldsStrongest was literally arguing for this earlier in the thread lol



Shark said:


> When Preta absorbs jutsu, does he do it instantly or does the jutsu take time to get absorbed?



Preta absorbs over a short period of time, but is vulnerable to physical attacks in the meantime and does not have to worry about getting overpowered; it isn't an attack.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> I answered you multiple times but okay...
> 
> You can't.
> 
> If you want to say Flying Raijin and Kamui have the same properties, and according to you Kamui is NLF, Flying Raijin is NLF. Alright.


Glad you agree sometimes there are things that can't be overpowered and you need a change of tactics to overcome them.





> @WorldsStrongest was literally arguing for this earlier in the thread lol


I wasn't saying you're the only one to argue that point, I was saying you're the one making an unsubstantiated assumption about a technique's ability and what it means... and not me.


> Preta absorbs over a short period of time, but is vulnerable to physical attacks in the meantime and does not have to worry about getting overpowered; it isn't an attack.


It doesn't matter if it's vulnerable to physical attacks, we're not talking about that. During the period in which he's absorbing the technique can the technique overpower him or not?

Also again you're making the baseless assumption that just because Daikoudan is an attack it has to overpower the technique while absorbing it...


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> Glad you agree sometimes there are things that can't be overpowered and you need a change of tactics to overcome them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We have not seen anything that outdoes Preta, bar NE when the user can't take it in and turns to stone.

Does it not make sense thay Daikodan could get overpowered by a much more powerful attack than itself in the process of absorbing it? @WorldsStrongest's numerical example is how I see it functioning.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> We have not seen anything that outdoes Preta, bar NE when the user can't take it in and turns to stone.


Because it *taking time to absorb *=/= *taking damage while that time is passing*.


> Does it not make sense thay Daikodan could get overpowered by a much more powerful attack than itself in the process of absorbing it? @WorldsStrongest's numerical example is how I see it functioning.


The numerical example disregards the "it gets stronger the stronger the jutsu is"

Is there a numerical equivalent for how much physical power Kamui can phase through? 

The only example we have of Daikoudan being overpowered is the one and only time it was used in which both Kisame and Gai make it pretty clear that Daikoudan lost because Hirudora didn't have chakra, not because it's simply stronger.

People always talk about how Daikoudan is featless yet when there is something that is actually shown and stated they ignore it.


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> Because it *taking time to absorb *=/= *taking damage while that time is passing*.
> 
> The numerical example disregards the "it gets stronger the stronger the jutsu is"
> 
> ...



I'm talking about sheer kinetic energy here. I don't think a very very very powerful Katon is going to stop Daikodan because it's lacking in kinetic energy, nevermind Katon < Suiton.

If another, much larger, Suiton gets launched at Daikodan, I see Daikodan getting destroyed because of the phyical opposition instead of the chakra.

As for Kamui...

Again, it isn't phasing, it's teleportation. Obito's projection is phasing


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> I'm talking about sheer kinetic energy here. I don't think a very very very powerful Katon is going to stop Daikodan because it's lacking in kinetic energy, nevermind Katon < Suiton.
> 
> If another, much larger, Suiton gets launched at Daikodan, I see Daikodan getting destroyed because of the phyical opposition instead of the chakra.


I've explained before that you have to find a way through the absorption in order to test your firepower against the shark. Hirudora has more firepower than Daikoudan (because it defeated it) yet after the clash Kisame and Gai were talking about how it wasn't a chakra attack not that "it overpowered my shark"

Why would Kishimoto have Hirudora be a "non-chakra attack" if it _already had enough firepower to overcome Daikoudan"_?


> As for Kamui...
> 
> Again, it isn't phasing, it's teleportation. Obito's projection is phasing


I'm gonna keep repeating this until you get it: It doesn't matter if it's phasing or teleportation because what we are concerned with is the attribute of *negating physical attacks*. Both *phasing and teleportation completely negate physical attacks.

Do you disagree with that?*


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> I've explained before that you have to find a way through the absorption in order to test your firepower against the shark. Hirudora has more firepower than Daikoudan (because it defeated it) yet after the clash Kisame and Gai were talking about how it wasn't a chakra attack not that "it overpowered my shark"
> 
> Why would Kishimoto have Hirudora be a "non-chakra attack" if it _already had enough firepower to overcome Daikoudan"_?
> 
> ...



I never said Hirudora was the benchmark for busting Daikoudan... I completely agree the Daikoudan was stronger and more versatile.

*No, I do not disagree
*
Just a heads up though, you may as well be using Shunshin for your example at this point.


----------



## Marvel (Mar 18, 2018)

Don’t know if I already posted my answer.
But team Sharingan wins the opposing side lack counters to genjutsu and don’t have the offense capable of getting through Yata Mirror aside from Sand Tsunamis.


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Levi Ackerman said:


> Don’t know if I already posted my answer.
> But team Sharingan wins the opposing side lack counters to genjutsu and don’t have the offense capable of getting through Yata Mirror aside from Sand Tsunamis.



Gaara can pull Itachi out of Susano'o


----------



## Marvel (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Gaara can pull Itachi out of Susano'o


Thanks for telling me.


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Levi Ackerman said:


> Thanks for telling me.



Yw buddy np, anytime

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> I never said Hirudora was the benchmark for busting Daikoudan... I completely agree the Daikoudan was stronger and more versatile.


What?

Hirudora is stronger than Daikoudan.

Not only does it not have chakra.

But it has _more firepower_ than Daikoudan and that is why it was actually able to win...

So then here is the question: Why were Kisame and Gai talking only about how Hirudora wasn't made of chakra and said nothing about it overpowering Daikoudan.

And a more important question: Why would Kishimoto have Hirudora be a chakra-less jutsu *if it already had enough firpower to overcome Daikoudan?
*
__


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 18, 2018)

Shark said:


> What?
> 
> Hirudora is stronger than Daikoudan.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry XD
It's midnight for me atm and I seem to be brain dead.

I seem to have confused multiple arguements together... I'll get back to you on this tomorrow morning and way later on in the day with my usual posting hours. 

If you see this as me chickening out, fair enough


----------



## Kisame (Mar 18, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> I'm sorry XD
> It's midnight for me atm and I seem to be brain dead.
> 
> I seem to have confused multiple arguements together... I'll get back to you on this tomorrow morning and way later on in the day with my usual posting hours.
> ...


No it's fine feel free to respond whenever you feel like it. If ever.


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 19, 2018)

What I intended was that I believe a chakra based attack on the level of Hirudora would not succeed against Daikoudan when we account for absorption.


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 19, 2018)

Shark said:


> But we already assume Kamui has no limits in the BD. You don't have to put a cap on things since there are other ways around the jutsu.
> 
> The reason I have my argument isn't because Daikoudan "hasn't shown a cap" but it's rather how I believe the jutsu actually works.
> 
> ...



Yata Mirror is imbued with all chakra natures which give it its ability to absorb/deflect Ninjutsu
Daikodan would absorb that chakra since it actually pulls in chakra from the target ninjutsu


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 19, 2018)

Shark said:


> I don't think Daikoudan as an overall technique is actually that hax if at all.
> 
> Remember that at the end of the day it is an offensive jutsu and it's goal is to harm the opponent.
> 
> ...


If it's not hax, why would you assume it can absorb an infinite amount of energy?

The unstoppable force meets the immovable object is one of the reasons putting a cap on things is better than the alternative


Troyse22 said:


> Yata Mirror is imbued with all chakra natures which give it its ability to absorb/deflect Ninjutsu
> Daikodan would absorb that chakra since it actually pulls in chakra from the target ninjutsu


But Yata Mirror deflects all things. Is Daikodan not a thing?


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 19, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> But Yata Mirror deflects all things. Is Daikodan not a thing?





Troyse22 said:


> Daikodan would absorb that chakra since it actually pulls in chakra from the target ninjutsu


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 19, 2018)

@Troyse22 are you saying that Daikodan would absorb Yata Mirror before ever coming into contact with it? I'd assume that's not what you mean since we already know that wouldn't happen


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 19, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> @Troyse22 are you saying that Daikodan would absorb Yata Mirror before ever coming into contact with it? I'd assume that's not what you mean since we already know that wouldn't happen



It pulls the chakra into it, it doesn't ram into it like a regular missile.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 19, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> It pulls the chakra into it, it doesn't ram into it like a regular missile.


Kisame wasn't the least bit surprised when Daikodan crashed into Hirudora without having absorbed it's chakra yet

So what makes you think it'd absorb all of Yata's chakra before it ever comes into contact with it?


----------



## Kisame (Mar 19, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> If it's not hax, why would you assume it can absorb an infinite amount of energy?


It's not hax because there are many ways to deal with it.


> The unstoppable force meets the immovable object is one of the reasons putting a cap on things is better than the alternative


Good thing Daikodan and Yata are neither.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 19, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> What I intended was that I believe a chakra based attack on the level of Hirudora would not succeed against Daikoudan when we account for absorption.


But the argument was that you can overcome the absorption if you had enough firepower.

Hirudora per canon has more firepower than Daikodan because it was able to beat it.

So by that logic, if it had chakra then it wouldn't have made a difference since it already had enough firepower to defeat Daikodan anyway.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 19, 2018)

Shark said:


> It's not hax because there are many ways to deal with it.
> 
> Good thing Daikodan and Yata are neither.


You literally just said that you thought they were


----------



## Kisame (Mar 19, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> You literally just said that you thought they were


Let me walk you through our conversation:

This is my original response:


			
				Shark said:
			
		

> The Yata mirror can't be absorbed because it's not a chakra construct (and even Susano'o which is made of chakra was not absorbed by Hashirama's tree so it seems to have some "anti absorption" inherent characterestic).


This is your response to mine:





			
				You said:
			
		

> But what if it was made of Chakra and was absorbable? Would unlimited absorption overcome a shield that "deflects all things"?


So you're the one who's creating this hypothetical that I never agreed was canon anyway. I responded to the hypothetical you suggested.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Mar 19, 2018)

Shark said:


> I'm not assuming anything, what have I said that is actually wrong.
> 
> Daikodan and Samehada are not the same and here's a post I made regarding that
> 
> ...


Nothing says they are different. Samahada eats and grows, Kisame eats and grows Daikodan eats and grows.

Going by the example of the other two related objects getting hit with more than you can absorb hurts as we see with Samehada being hurt by lariat and fire and Kisame catching a hole in his chest _even when chakra was being absorbed._

0 sources say Daikodan is a barrier style absorbtion like Preta where nothing actually impacts it like you are trying to make it out to be.

And the other way actually fits exactly how Kisame's other Absorbtion works making it more logical.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 19, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Nothing says they are different. Samahada eats and grows, Kisame eats and grows Daikodan eats and grows.


I just wrote a long ass explanation pointing all the differences between them. Read it again.


> Going by the example of the other two related objects getting hit with more than you can absorb hurts as we see with Samehada being hurt by lariat and fire and Kisame catching a hole in his chest _even when chakra was being absorbed._


But Daikodan isn't Samehada...

Samehada has problems

Not Daikodan

They're not the same thing...


> 0 sources say Daikodan is a barrier style absorbtion like Preta where nothing actually impacts it like you are trying to make it out to be.


The manga states Daikodan absorbs ninjutsu.

The manga states the more ninjutsu the better.

The only person refusing to accept what the manga is saying here is you.


> And the other way actually fits exactly how Kisame's other Absorbtion works making it more logical.


No it doesn't and that's your fanfiction because I have already pointed out a million differences between Samehada and Daikodan.

Samehada is not Daikodan.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Mar 20, 2018)

Shark said:


> I just wrote a long ass explanation pointing all the differences between them. Read it again.


Lol oh, I've read it. 
You just ignored what I had to say about their similarities though. 

And also the difference between an Absorbtion barrier and regular Absorbtion. 


Shark said:


> But Daikodan isn't Samehada...
> 
> Samehada has problems
> 
> ...


The problems we know of Samehada are because we have seen what it can and cannot do by feats. 

Kisame does not say "I can only absorb 6 v2 tails!" Before he attacks either. We learn the process amd limitations from seeing it in action _even though he told us what it does.  _Just like every other jutsu.

So the "he didn't say there was a limit!" Line does not hold water (tee hee) when he does not say what the limit of any jutsu is before hand. No one really does.

Madara does not shout at his foes "PS can destroy all things.... but not Hashirama hands catching it or Rashomon gates I guess, and probably not Yata mirror either. Oh yea is also can't destroy.....etc" Because that would be silly for anybody.
They just make a grandiose statement. As both tend to do.


Shark said:


> The manga states Daikodan absorbs ninjutsu.
> 
> The manga states the more ninjutsu the better.


No one at any point has said it does not do either of those things and unless you really just don't get it it's pretty disengenous to pretend otherwise.

Everyone knows it absorbs ninjutsu, people just wonder how much and how fast.

Everyone knows it gets bigger as it absorbs chakra, but so do Kisame and Samehada. 
You seem to think those are unrelated phenomena.
Others dont. They see correlation from context.


Shark said:


> The only person refusing to accept what the manga is saying here is you


No one is lol, we meerly all have slightly interpretations of what that means.

Again, there are several things in the manga we all just take with a grain of salt and keep moving on with like the earlier PS example or with Itachi being called invincible, or him flat out stating you need a MS and to be close kin to escape Tsukiyomi, etc.

People only tend not to with their faves. 


Shark said:


> No it doesn't and that's your fanfiction because I have already pointed out a million differences between Samehada and Daikodan.
> 
> Samehada is not Daikodan.


Your differences are mostly conjecture though.

Like assuming that it absorbing chakra to make itself bigger is different than Kisame's or Samehada, when all three do so.

You are also the one that assumes that if it hits a jutsu it can't absorb all of instantly the other jutsu just stops there and waits for Daikodan to finish chewing and growing. 

Kisame wasn't surprised that the AT didn't completely dissapear instantly or that it was piercing Daikodan. Just that Daikodan wasn't getting bigger.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 20, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Lol oh, I've read it.
> You just ignored what I had to say about their similarities though.


No I've addressed everything that had to be said a hundred times.

They are not the same.

If there are differences then that means they are incomparable.

Samehada is not Daikodan.



> And also the difference between an Absorbtion barrier and regular Absorbtion.


What's the difference?

Why does "regular" absorption have to have a limit?

Absorption by nature negates whatever is being absorbed...

Here's the DB entry for Daikodan:


> Sution Daikōdan no Jutsu
> 
> *The shark's roar eats and shredded to pieces the enemy jutsu, while one's own power restores!!*
> 
> ...





> The problems we know of Samehada are because we have seen what it can and cannot do by feats.
> 
> Kisame does not say "I can only absorb 6 v2 tails!" Before he attacks either. We learn the process amd limitations from seeing it in action _even though he told us what it does.  _Just like every other jutsu.
> 
> ...


I'm gonna say this one more time:

Daikoudan will absorb the jutsu

Kisame tells us what happens when there is more chakra in the jutsu

He says *It gets bigger*

That's Kisame telling us what will happen if we try to overpower the shark

We have already been told how the jutsu will interact if you try to overpower it.

Why is this so hard to grasp?


> No one at any point has said it does not do either of those things and unless you really just don't get it it's pretty disengenous to pretend otherwise.
> 
> Everyone knows it absorbs ninjutsu, people just wonder how much and how fast.
> 
> ...


First of all, that correlation is not based on evidence but based on the fact they believe there is a magical connection between Daikodan and Samehada unsubstantiated by any evidence. It is guessing and *nothing more*.

Second, that correlation is false:

1. Samehada "getting bigger" serves no practical purpose because a/ it doesn't get stronger b/ it's limits doesn't change, while Daikodan getting bigger means a/ it gets stronger b/ it's limits change (it absorbs more). So that comparison between is bullshit.
2. Samehada's limit is *per contact, *it can absorb *infinite amounts of chakra *if the opponent keeps touching it.
2. Samehada's final objective is to weaken the enemy and steal *all their chakra*. It does this through *multiple attempts throughout a battle*. All the "I get stronger in proportion to my opponent" and any Samehada hype is referencing how it does throughout a whole fight. 
3. Daikoudan's goal is to *defeat the enemy jutsu in one clash*, So if we're being intellectually honest we should compare those goals of the two things: The limit doesn't make a difference.

So even then it's bullshit again.

I've already said this shit before but I'll keep repeating it until it gets addressed.



> Your differences are mostly conjecture though.
> 
> Like assuming that it absorbing chakra to make itself bigger is different than Kisame's or Samehada, when all three do so.


Do you understand why it is different? I said it's not comparable and I explained why. You can refer to that again if you want to know why you are wrong.


> You are also the one that assumes that if it hits a jutsu it can't absorb all of instantly the other jutsu just stops there and waits for Daikodan to finish chewing and growing.


Why does absorption have to be instant? There has literally never been an absorption that was instant in the manga not even Preta.

I've asked this question before a hundred times but you guys just keep repeating your points without answering my responses...


> Kisame wasn't surprised that the AT didn't completely dissapear instantly or that it was piercing Daikodan. Just that Daikodan wasn't getting bigger.


*Why were Kisame and Gai talking only about how Hirudora wasn't made of chakra and said nothing about it overpowering Daikoudan.*

*Why would Kishimoto have Hirudora be a chakra-less jutsu if it already had enough firpower to overcome Daikoudan?

Can you launch a physical attack powerful enough to overcome Kamui?*


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 20, 2018)

Shark said:


> But the argument was that you can overcome the absorption if you had enough firepower.
> 
> Hirudora per canon has more firepower than Daikodan because it was able to beat it.
> 
> So by that logic, if it had chakra then it wouldn't have made a difference since it already had enough firepower to defeat Daikodan anyway.



What I believe atm is that it takes more than Hirudora to handle Daikoudan if it's chakra-based. I think Hirudora was strong enough, but that was because it wasn't able to be absorbed at all. A chakra-based attack on the same level might lose too much power, hence why I believe it takes a more powerful attack.

Any questions?


----------



## Kisame (Mar 20, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> What I believe atm is that it takes more than Hirudora to handle Daikoudan if it's chakra-based. I think Hirudora was strong enough, but that was because it wasn't able to be absorbed at all. A chakra-based attack on the same level might lose too much power, hence why I believe it takes a more powerful attack.
> 
> Any questions?


I'm not asking any questions I've already said a hundred times why that logic is flawed.

We can agree to disagree if you wish.


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 20, 2018)

Shark said:


> I'm not asking any questions I've already said a hundred times why that logic is flawed.
> 
> We can agree to disagree if you wish.



I mean, if that's what you'd prefer, then okay...


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 20, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> SM Naruto is some how leagues ahead of Kisame but behind Pein to the point he can't even lift a finger vs SM Naruto (per general consensus)
> .



SM Naruto > SM Jiraiya > Jiraiya > Kisame

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 20, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> SM Naruto > SM Jiraiya > Jiraiya > Kisame



Meh, new poster, don't really care. Ignored

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1 | Lewd 1


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 20, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Meh, new poster, don't really care. Ignored



at least I know this forum is very welcoming.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 20, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> at least I know this forum is very welcoming.


Thats just Troy really

Dont let it get to you

Unless you agree to wank Kisame like he does and put Kisame on Rinnegan Obitos and Nagatos tier, you arent gonna get along with him

Believe me ive tried

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Friendly 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Marvel (Mar 20, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> at least I know this forum is very welcoming.


Welcome to the Forum don’t kind Troyse he’s a die hard Kisame fan/Wanker and throws tantrums when his favorite character loses a matchup.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 20, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats just Troy really
> 
> Dont let it get to you
> 
> ...


Those are pretty bad...but still not as bad as when he said Kisame would beat Adult Sasuke in cqc

Reactions: Informative 2


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 20, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Those are pretty bad...but still not as bad as when he said Kisame would beat Adult Sasuke in cqc


Agreed

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Marvel (Mar 20, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Meh, new poster, don't really care. Ignored


Meh same old biased Kisame wanker,Don’t really care ignored.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Marvel (Mar 20, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Those are pretty bad...but still not as bad as when he said Kisame would beat Adult Sasuke in cqc


What the fuck.


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 20, 2018)

Levi Ackerman said:


> Meh same old biased Kisame wanker,Don’t really care ignored.



Provided I'm not ignored yet, what makes you think I care what you think?


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 20, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Provided I'm not ignored yet, what makes you think I care what you think?


Hes just doing exactly what you did to the new guy

So what makes you think people care when you ignore them

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


----------



## Marvel (Mar 20, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Provided I'm not ignored yet, what makes you think I care what you think?


I wouldn’t really ignore you since I’m not petty like that and what makes you think the new member cares about what YOU think?


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 20, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Hes just doing exactly what you did to the new guy
> 
> So what makes you think people care when you ignore them



Because I'm one the most influential and active NBD posters.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 20, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Because I'm one the most influential and active NBD posters.


Uh huh

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 20, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Uh huh



What exactly is untrue?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Mar 20, 2018)

Shark said:


> No I've addressed everything that had to be said a hundred times.
> 
> They are not the same.
> 
> ...


Raikiri, Chidori, and Hell stab are three different jutsu that do a similar thing but have differences. Must be incomparable?


Shark said:


> What's the difference?
> The difference is Blocking Technique Absorbtion Seal is a barrier. It stops a jutsu from even reaching the one absorbing the Jutsu. Thus why Preta can completely neg V2 Lariat, stop KCM Naruto from getting his Rasengan or even his arm through etc.
> 
> This is clearly different than Samehada, Yaroi, Kisame and every chakra Absorbtion user/type we have seen right?
> Why does "regular" absorption have to have a limit?


As you well know from seeing it, if a thing gets hit by more chakra than it can absorb at once, or a type the user can't handle problems can occur.



Shark said:


> Absorption by nature negates whatever is being absorbed...
> 
> Here's the DB entry for Daikodan:


An example: Kisame was able to neg a head butt because of the chakra boosting it being absorbed. Kisame gets a snack, grows stronger and continues on.

When there was too much chakra to be fully absorbed before contact on the other hand (and remember Kisame did not state a limit prior to this either) Samehada and Kisame were both damaged. 

Simply saying "but there was Absorbtion happening!" Over and over does not change the outcome that everyone saw.

Not being able to absorb *fast enough *is an issue unless something is just holding the Jutsu or jutsu user back (assuming it's something with a ton of chakra, if not like the  headbutt it's negged clearly) .


Shark said:


> I'm gonna say this one more time:
> 
> Daikoudan will absorb the jutsu
> 
> ...


Again.


Hi no Ishi said:


> No one at any point has said it does not do either of those things and unless you really just don't get it it's pretty disengenous to pretend otherwise.
> 
> Everyone knows it absorbs ninjutsu, people just wonder how much and how fast.
> 
> ...





Shark said:


> That's Kisame telling us what will happen if we try to overpower the shark
> 
> We have already been told how the jutsu will interact if you try to overpower it.
> 
> Why is this so hard to grasp?


Knowing what you mean and agreeing are different things. 

Again it's not like we are told the limits of Samehada (or anything else really) by him and it highly unlikely even he knew that he wouldn't be able to absorb all of B's cloak iirc.


Shark said:


> First of all, that correlation is not based on evidence but based on the fact they believe there is a magical connection between Daikodan and Samehada unsubstantiated by any evidence. It is guessing and *nothing more*.


1) cor·re·la·tion
ˌkôrəˈlāSH(ə)n/
_noun_

a mutual relationship or connection between two or more things.
2) them having similarities between them is correlation lol

3) Thinking that Absorbtion by a guy might be similar to other absorbtion by that same guy is probably less strange than you think lol.


Shark said:


> 1. Samehada "getting bigger" serves no practical purpose because a/ it doesn't get stronger b/ it's limits doesn't change, while Daikodan getting bigger means a/ it gets stronger b/ it's limits change (it absorbs more). So that comparison between is bullshit.


You feel it serves no purpose, but that your own feeling you are attaching to it.

Eating and growing stonger is the purpose of absorbtion lol. 
Him growing larger and having bigger spikes and fangs is clearly more formidable than normal as well btw.


Shark said:


> 2. Samehada's limit is *per contact, *it can absorb *infinite amounts of chakra *if the opponent keeps touching it.


Remember when Kisame clearly defined all that in his opening statement about Samehada?
Of course not. 
We needed feats to fully define that like everything else. 


Shark said:


> 2. Samehada's final objective is to weaken the enemy and steal *all their chakra*. It does this through *multiple attempts throughout a battle*. All the "I get stronger in proportion to my opponent" and any Samehada hype is referencing how it does throughout a whole fight.


Again that's your inference. Kisame never said any of that surrounding stuff right?

You know all that from feats and not just him saying "My Samehada shaves away chakra" right? 


Shark said:


> 3. Daikoudan's goal is to *defeat the enemy jutsu in one clash*, So if we're being intellectually honest we should compare those goals of the two things: The limit doesn't make a difference.


If we are actually being honest we have seen Absorbtion per second be a problem before when there isn't a barrier or something holding back the Jutsu right?


Shark said:


> Why does absorption have to be instant? There has literally never been an absorption that was instant in the manga not even Preta.


Again look at Headbutt vs V2 Lariat. Both are absorbed. One gets negged and the other is too much to fast and damage gets through. 

Heck V2 Lariat vs no barrier knocks his chest off even when blocked, but BTAS stops him from doing Jack even with a direct hit.

The type and speed of the absorbtion jutsu clearly matter. 


Shark said:


> I've asked this question before a hundred times but you guys just keep repeating your points without answering my responses...


Sorry I did not answer what you asked someone else 


Shark said:


> Why were Kisame and Gai talking only about how Hirudora wasn't made of chakra and said nothing about it overpowering Daikoudan.


Because it wasn't growing and that tipped him off to the type of jutsu and surprised him. He was shocked that Guy had that kind of jutsu and says so right after he is hit.

He has literally just never seen a non chakra attack that big before.



Shark said:


> Why would Kishimoto have Hirudora be a chakra-less jutsu if it already had enough firpower to overcome Daikoudan?


A more reasonable question would be why would Gai who does not use chakra attacks have a huge chakra attack?

How would that be more reasonable?


Shark said:


> Can you launch a physical attack powerful enough to overcome Kamui?


An actually relevant and not straw man style question would be, 
" Have we seen Absorbtion be over come enough to damage the thing doing the absorbtion?"

And the answer is yes.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Mar 20, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> at least I know this forum is very welcoming.


Please don't let Troy's lack of proper communication skills color your opinion of the rest of us.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Mar 21, 2018)

@InfiniteHiraishin you see... @Troyse22 way of saying he likes you is by putting you on ignore


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats just Troy really
> 
> Dont let it get to you
> 
> ...


There's no need for me to be phased, it's just questionable debating, albeit Kisame is a very impressive guy.

And @Troyse22, you still haven't shown me where Kisame downplays Orochimaru. 



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame then mocks Deidara dying to the man who killed Orochimaru!
> 
> "Huh, and I thought he was one of the stronger ones" (referring to Deidara) suggesting he thinks that someone who can lose to the man who killed a Sannin isn't so strong



I genuinely wanted to see where this was in the manga.

Regardless, based off the series--
*Kisame dies via frog guts if Amaterasu wasn't a thing.* This very much happened. And you cannot just give me the "that was part 1" BS, because the "retcons" displayed in Shippuden, affect lore more than power scaling; things like calling Saru the God of Shinobi.

And since you want to dismiss my argument, the same can be done with your initial contest.

[Kisame threatening or standing in front of Jiraiya = Kisame ~ Jiraiya] is a poor argument. How many times have we seen people confident in themselves get cucked?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 21, 2018)

Anyways, before this gets archived for being off-topic...

I got a couple people who disliked my initial post saying that it *might be possible *that Itachi with full prowess can take on Kisame and Gaara by himself. Itachi creampied Deidara who gave Gaara a run for his scooby snacks, and I don't see Gaara being too much of an issue. And I'm pretty sure most of you agree with me that Itachi > Kisame

I'm not saying it's a stomp, but it is very possible with what we've been shown. 
So unless you think War Arc Gaara is a top 20 shinobi, you could def say Itachi takes it mid to high diff.

Add War Arc Kakashi, and I'm going to have to say Anbu/Sharingan duo stomps for sure.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 21, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> I genuinely wanted to see where this was in the manga.


Troys view on that is headcanon anyway

, , Kisame also goes on to praise Deidaras techniques...One could just as easily argue he is lamenting Deidaras loss due to his strength and contributions to the group.

It aint like Kisame is talking down to anyone or laughing while he says that about Deidara 

Then when you consider Deidara would beat Kisame in a fight like 9 times out of 10, and Kisames previous statements regarding a Sannin compared to himself...It gets more than a tad unlikely that he was giving Deidara shit for losing to someone who killed a Sannin.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2 | Dislike 1


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Troys view on that is headcanon anyway
> 
> , , Kisame also goes on to praise Deidaras techniques...One could just as easily argue he is lamenting Deidaras loss due to his strength and contributions to the group.
> 
> ...



I read the manga, right after Deidara dies-- Kisame states "ah we lost another member, thought he was quite strong."
Can't find "Kisame then mocks Deidara dying to the man who killed Orochimaru!" as stated by Troy.

I just want to see the panel, otherwise, the connection is rather fallacious.
It's basically saying "hmmm well Sasuke beat Orochimaru, Deidara almost beat Sasuke, and Kisame says we lost one of the good ones, so Kisame thinks Sannin are trash!"

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Mar 21, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> I read the manga, right after Deidara dies-- Kisame states "ah we lost another member, thought he was quite strong."
> Can't find "Kisame then mocks Deidara dying to the man who killed Orochimaru!" as stated by Troy.
> 
> I just want to see the panel, otherwise, the connection is rather fallacious.
> It's basically saying "hmmm well Sasuke beat Orochimaru, Deidara almost beat Sasuke, and Kisame says we lost one of the good ones, so Kisame thinks Sannin are trash!"


You get it.


----------



## Topace (Mar 21, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Anyways, before this gets archived for being off-topic...
> 
> I got a couple people who disliked my initial post saying that it *might be possible *that Itachi with full prowess can take on Kisame and Gaara by himself. Itachi creampied Deidara who gave Gaara a run for his scooby snacks, and I don't see Gaara being too much of an issue. And I'm pretty sure most of you agree with me that Itachi > Kisame
> 
> ...


So we're using A>B so A>C logic here?


I want to know how itachi beats Gaara. What in Itachi arsenal  can't Gaara Wall or Straight up counter.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Troys view on that is headcanon anyway
> 
> , , Kisame also goes on to praise Deidaras techniques...One could just as easily argue he is lamenting Deidaras loss due to his strength and contributions to the group.
> 
> ...




It's not headcanon.

Kisame openly challenging the guy who killed the strongest Sannin+his group is Kishis way of disregarding his part 1 statement. You're bordering on Sannin wank levels if you think Kisames P1 statement means anything come P2.

He straight challenges the man who killed Deidara as well those accompanying said man, no matter what way you spin it Kisame is portrayed leagues ahead of the Sannin, and Deidara as well

Prior to losing to Sasuke, Kisame probably did think Deidara was one of the stronger ones. But hes clearly talking down about him when he makes this statement.

You tell me to stop insulting you and I do, then you go and do the same to me? The hell is your problem?


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 21, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> It's not headcanon.


It absolutely is

If Kisame had said something like "how dare he lose to such a guy" or "man what a joke" or something along those lines, THAT would be canon

But he says "Always considered him a stronger member" and goes on to praise his techniques...

In no way is there definitive proof Kisame talked down to Deidara...He doesnt even laugh while saying it

Ergo, the opinion that he was talking down to Deidara, is a selective interpretation, and therefore headcanon 


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame openly challenging the guy who killed the strongest Sannin+his group is Kishis way of disregarding his part 1 statement


And how do you know thats what Kishi intended? Is your last name Kishimoto? Are you secretly one of his editors?

Im guessing no, therefore this is just your interpretation

I could just as easily do what you did with deidaras statement and push an interpretation onto you as absolute fact here

I could easily say what was intended from this scene was to display Kisames unfounded arrogance in challenging a Team well beyond his abilities

Its also kinda true  Cuz hed get slapped there if the entire team came to blows with him 

But im not pushing it on as 100% fact, *im just saying i could and its not unfounded*


Troyse22 said:


> You're bordering on Sannin wank


You live on Kisame wank

And Sannin downplay

Accusations of bias from you mean literally nothing to me

Its like the ultimate personification of the pot calling the kettle black


Troyse22 said:


> He straight challenges the man who killed Deidara as well those accompanying said man, no matter what way you spin it Kisame is portrayed leagues ahead of the Sannin, and Deidara as well


No he isnt

Hes portrayed on or near their level tho and ive never not argued otherwise

Hebi Sasuke, Deidara, and Kisame and every akatsuki member worth a damn are Sannin tier in my eyes

But there exists 0 evidence to place any of these names ABOVE the sannin by any ridiculous degree


Troyse22 said:


> Prior to losing to Sasuke, Kisame probably did think Deidara was one of the stronger ones. But hes clearly talking down about him when he makes this statement.


No he isnt

Literally nothing about what he says even implies that

He praises his jutsu, and then Pain says Deidara was special and borderline irreplaceable and suggests the organisation mourn him...That scene has loads of instances of Deidara getting praised, suggesting it was used to poke fun at Deidara is shaky as hell at the very least


Troyse22 said:


> You tell me to stop insulting you and I do, then you go and do the same to me?


Where did i insult you kid?

Dont play the victim now

I said your view on one scene is "headcanon" at best

Thats not an insult

Nice try tho

I can go quote some of the things youve said to me if you need a reminder on what an insult is


Troyse22 said:


> The hell is your problem?


If i HAD insulted you, which i didnt do btw and literally anyone who reads my posts can see that, it wouldnt be unfounded

As youve done that to me about half a dozen times in this thread alone

So if i had, i wouldn't have a "problem"

Itd just be me giving what i got is all

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 21, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> Can't find "Kisame then mocks Deidara dying to the man who killed Orochimaru!" as stated by Troy.


Dont know the context of what Troy said to you when he brought this up, but if this was an attempt to be a verbatim quote from the manga...Or even a paraphrased one...

I can tell you for a fact it doesnt exist 

Dont worry about it


InfiniteHiraishin said:


> I just want to see the panel, otherwise, the connection is rather fallacious.


Its entirely fallicious 

I imagine he was referencing the scans i posted, where Kisame says Deidara is one of the stronger members

He then takes that and sprinkles his interpretation (and bias) onto it and treats it as fact that its meant to be insulting while ignoring the entire context of the scene

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 21, 2018)

Kisame's demeanor in that scene is clearly sarcasm. He initially thought he was one of the stronger members and then corrects himself after Deidara's loss. 

How one would equate that to Kisame respecting Deidara's strength is beyond me. The guy was stomped by Itachi, who is one of Kisame's peers based on portrayal.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 21, 2018)

King Itachi said:


> Kisame's demeanor in that scene is clearly sarcasm


Headcanon


King Itachi said:


> Itachi, who is one of Kisame's peers based on portrayal.


And lol

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 21, 2018)

Topace said:


> So we're using A>B so A>C logic here?
> 
> 
> I want to know how itachi beats Gaara. What in Itachi arsenal  can't Gaara Wall or Straight up counter.


I'll agree that [A>B, B>C, therefore A>C] is a poor argument.

In no way do I disrespect Gaara, nor downplay him. His sand can keep up with Amaterasu shown at the Kage Summit. He can also bypass Susanoo shown versus Madara, however they were fighting on sand and, _not as importantly_, Ohnoki had used the light-weight jutsu on the sand.
But now that Gaara is no longer a Jinchuriki, I don't see his counters to Genjutsu, specifically Tsukuyomi of course, nor do I see him countering Totsuka.
.


----------



## Architect (Mar 21, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> specifically Tsukuyomi of course





> *Kanji * 月読
> *Rōmaji * Tsukuyomi
> *Literal English * Moon Reader
> *Class * Supplementary
> *Range  Short-range*






InfiniteHiraishin said:


> nor do I see him countering Totsuka.


He can fly out of its range.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 21, 2018)

Architect said:


> He can fly out of its range.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> It absolutely is
> 
> If Kisame had said something like "how dare he lose to such a guy" or "man what a joke" or something along those lines, THAT would be canon
> 
> ...



So what makes my point of view headcanon, and yours not?

I could just as easily say your points are headcanon.

It's all about interpretation, the difference is your interpretation is wrong, mine is right, thus your opinion is headcanon



WorldsStrongest said:


> And how do you know thats what Kishi intended? Is your last name Kishimoto? Are you secretly one of his editors?



Nope, but it very clearly puts Kisame far above his previous statement of The Sannin being in a different league than him (granted his statement was based on nothing but hype)

Oro was portrayed as the strongest of the Sannin, and a legitimate threat to the Akatsuki members

Not only does Kisame know he's squaring off against the man who killed said Sannin, but his entire team as well.

This clearly, VERY clearly puts Kisame above his previous part 1 statement, as if it was of any value, he would say to Itachi "nah fuck that I ain't squaring off against Sasuke, homie killed Orochimaru fam"

If you think the P1 statement and Kisame challenging Sasuke can co-exist you're wrong, the later portrayal wins every time.



WorldsStrongest said:


> You live on Kisame wank
> 
> And Sannin downplay
> 
> ...



Show me where I downplay the Sannin. I can be quoted saying SM Jiraiya>SM Naruto as of late.

Only one you can argue I downplay is Tsunade, but that's simply because I don't think a slow heavy hitter with no ninjutsu or mid-long range capability is worthy of being called "mid kage"

Even low kage is a stretch based on Tsunade's combat capabilities, but i'll give the BOTD for portrayal reasons



WorldsStrongest said:


> No he isnt
> 
> Hes portrayed on or near their level tho and ive never not argued otherwise
> 
> ...



Hebi (group) are portrayed well above an individual Sannin as one of their members is portrayed directly above them
Kisame challenges the group and insists he'll show no mercy.

Portrayal wise Kisame>Hebi (group)>Any individual Sannin



WorldsStrongest said:


> Literally nothing about what he says even implies that



He's clearly being sarcastic/condescending.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Where did i insult you kid?





WorldsStrongest said:


> Troys view on that is headcanon anyway





WorldsStrongest said:


> If i HAD insulted you, which i didnt do btw and literally anyone who reads my posts can see that, it wouldnt be unfounded
> 
> As youve done that to me about half a dozen times in this thread alone
> 
> ...



So we're gonna play like that eh?

Fine by me.


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 21, 2018)

Architect said:


> > *Kanji *月読
> > *Rōmaji *Tsukuyomi
> > *Literal English *Moon Reader
> > *Class *Supplementary
> > *Range Short-range*





Hi no Ishi said:


> Distance 30M



I played football, so I know 30meters is a bit more than 30 yards, and 40 yards are sprinted within 5 seconds. Now I'm new to scaling fights based off distance or location, but for lightning-timers, that's nothing. 

Also, inside of 30M is enough for eye-sight


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 21, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> So what makes my point of view headcanon, and yours not?
> 
> I could just as easily say your points are headcanon.
> 
> It's all about interpretation, the difference is your interpretation is wrong, mine is right, thus your opinion is headcanon.



The most objective way to interpret anything is by looking at it literally and state what happened.
The reason your view deviates into headcanon is because you're connecting ideas that aren't given to us on those panels.

You can assume, but alas, that is just an assumption.


----------



## Architect (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


>


1) That wasn't Tsukuyomi.
2) This was the moment they were actually looking in each other's eyes:


It's apparently not 5 meters, but still lies within 10 meters I think. 
But yeah, you can insist Deidara looked in Sasuke's eye from that distance on your first scan and with only one eye.


----------



## Topace (Mar 21, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> I'll agree that [A>B, B>C, therefore A>C] is a poor argument.
> 
> In no way do I disrespect Gaara, nor downplay him. His sand can keep up with Amaterasu shown at the Kage Summit. He can also bypass Susanoo shown versus Madara, however they were fighting on sand and, _not as importantly_, Ohnoki had used the light-weight jutsu on the sand.
> But now that Gaara is no longer a Jinchuriki, I don't see his counters to Genjutsu, specifically Tsukuyomi of course, nor do I see him countering Totsuka.
> .


His Absolute Defense works regardless of his will. If he is unconsciousness, under genjutsu etc it will still come to his aid. Secondly It took madara 5 susanno clones to get through gaara defense and even then he wasn't actually even hit just sent flying from the shockwave. What piercing feats does itachi blade have. Also gaara can grab itachi easily if he wanted too. His desert sand was to slow to touch madara at all which is why onoki had to lighten it. Itachi has no feats what so ever to even suggest he could evade gaara sand even if he wanted too. Nevertheless a tsunami of it after a couple mins.

Reactions: Like 1 | Neutral 1


----------



## Architect (Mar 21, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> blank


Short range defines distance from 0 to 5 meters.
30 meters in OP is only initial distance.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 21, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> So what makes my point of view headcanon, and yours not?
> 
> I could just as easily say your points are headcanon.


That was my entire point with this rant...


WorldsStrongest said:


> I could just as easily do what you did with deidaras statement and push an interpretation onto you as absolute fact here
> 
> I could easily say what was intended from this scene was to display Kisames unfounded arrogance in challenging a Team well beyond his abilities
> 
> ...





Troyse22 said:


> It's all about interpretation, the difference is your interpretation is wrong, mine is right, thus your opinion is headcanon


Wow lol

And you accuse others of putting their fingers in their ears and yelling "im right"

Nah man

Nothing in that scene is even vaguely condescending 

In order to buy that, you need to disregard the entire context of the event to suit your needs...Including when later on Kisame praises Deidara outright...

So yeah

Youre wrong bud


Troyse22 said:


> This clearly, VERY clearly puts Kisame above his previous part 1 statement


Im not arguing the part 1 statement

Literally said in my post i think its more or less BS when i said Kisame and mid tier Akatsuki=Sannin level


WorldsStrongest said:


> Hes portrayed on or near their level tho and ive never not argued otherwise
> 
> Hebi Sasuke, Deidara, and Kisame and every akatsuki member worth a damn are Sannin tier in my eyes



But im guessing you only acknowledged what triggered you again 


Troyse22 said:


> Show me where I downplay the Sannin


Where DONT you?

Also way to not deny that you wank Kisame 

Only challenged my point that you downplay Sannin :kermnit

I get it 


Troyse22 said:


> Only one you can argue I downplay is Tsunade


Tsunade=A sannin so my downplay point stands

Concession accepted 


Troyse22 said:


> Hebi (group) are portrayed well above an individual Sannin as one of their members is portrayed directly above them
> Kisame challenges the group and insists he'll show no mercy


The group?

Sure, theyd wreck basically anyone shown in the manga at that point in a 4v1...Tho those are hardly fair odds


Troyse22 said:


> Portrayal wise Kisame>Hebi (group)


No...

Sasuke alone can beat him

Been through this with you about half a dozen times...

In that scene we have Sasuke leaving Kisame to his weaker teammates, to go fight kisames SUPERIOR partner Itachi ALONE...In what way does that portray Kisame above Sasuke?

Oh thats right...We are doing that thing where we ignore the context of occurrences to suit our needs I forgot 

My b


Troyse22 said:


> Hebi (group)>Any individual Sannin


Sure

But as i said being above a 1 when you are 4 is hardly a shock


Troyse22 said:


> He's clearly being sarcastic/condescending.


Must be why he praises him 

Stop it


Troyse22 said:


> So we're gonna play like that eh?


Play it like what?

I blatantly didnt insult you

You take the word "headcanon" as an insult when its directed at your interpretation of a single scene, but you dont think "intellectually stubborn idiot" is insulting?

Cool

Whatever troy

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Architect (Mar 21, 2018)

InfiniteHiraishin said:


> I played football, so I know 30meters is a bit more than 30 yards, and 40 yards are sprinted within 5 seconds. Now I'm new to scaling fights based off distance or location, but for lightning-timers, that's nothing.
> 
> Also, inside of 30M is enough for eye-sight


If you really believe Gaara wouldn't fly upwards without looking at Sasuke before Sasuke crosses 25 meters, then ok.


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 21, 2018)

Architect said:


> If you really believe Gaara wouldn't fly upwards without looking at Sasuke before Sasuke crosses 25 meters, then ok.



What's Deidara's excuse then?


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 21, 2018)

Architect said:


> 1) That wasn't Tsukuyomi.


Eye contact is eye contact kid


Architect said:


> 2) This was the moment they were actually looking in each other's eyes


Wrong

He made eye contact yes, but that wasnt when he used genjutsu, that came later

If that was the case, sasuke wouldnt have been there to even be worried regarding C4s cloud......

As hed already be behind deidara as he chases an illusion


Architect said:


> It's apparently not 5 meters, but still lies within 10 meters I think


Nope


Architect said:


> But yeah, you can insist Deidara looked in Sasuke's eye from that distance on your first scan and with only one eye


Did you just imply you need eye contact with both eyes to cast a genjutsu on someone?

Cuz if you are...

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Architect (Mar 21, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> What's Deidara's excuse then?


I think you are referring to Deidara reacting to Sasuke when there were only 1-1,5 meters left between them.

The distance between them was like 3 times shorter than in OP.


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 21, 2018)

Topace said:


> His Absolute Defense works regardless of his will. If he is unconsciousness, under genjutsu etc it will still come to his aid. Secondly It took madara 5 susanno clones to get through gaara defense and even then he wasn't actually even hit just sent flying from the shockwave. What piercing feats does itachi blade have. Also gaara can grab itachi easily if he wanted too. His desert sand was to slow to touch madara at all which is why onoki had to lighten it. Itachi has no feats what so ever to even suggest he could evade gaara sand even if he wanted too. Nevertheless a tsunami of it after a couple mins.



I understand Absolute Defense being a formidable physical defense, I just don't recall it ever being used for Genjutsu.
I don't know much on Gaara's speed feats, but Itachi does have pretty good reaction time while defending Kirin.


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Im not arguing the part 1 statement
> 
> Literally said in my post i think its more or less BS when i said Kisame and mid tier Akatsuki=Sannin level



It's not "more or less BS"

It's pure BS

At least come P2



WorldsStrongest said:


> Where DONT you?



When I say SM Jiraiya>SM Naruto
When I say Orochimaru at full power is nearly god tier



WorldsStrongest said:


> Also way to not deny that you wank Kisame



Because I don't

I simply take what the manga has given me and apply it to the NBD, not exactly rocket science



WorldsStrongest said:


> Tsunade=A sannin so my downplay point stands
> 
> Concession accepted



No, it doesn't actually

Saying I downplay the Sannin implies I downplay the entire group and all the members in it.

I don't downplay any of them, hell I even give Tsunade the BOTD so she can be in the kage level group.

But sure, keep saying I downplay them



WorldsStrongest said:


> The group?
> 
> Sure, theyd wreck basically anyone shown in the manga at that point in a 4v1...Tho those are hardly fair odds



No not at all.

Kisame or Itachi would rip them apart, since they're probably the 2 strongest in the manga at this point (living obviously)



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke alone can beat him







WorldsStrongest said:


> In that scene we have Sasuke leaving Kisame to his weaker teammates, to go fight kisames SUPERIOR partner Itachi ALONE...In what way does that portray Kisame above Sasuke?



Because Sasuke was allowed to pass

"Only Sasuke *alone* may go beyond this point, the rest of you are welcome to wait right here with me"

Sasuke wouldn't engage in a pointless battle and tire himself out, since he had no personal quarrel with Kisame, and Kisame wasn't protecting Itachi, he outright lets the strongest of the group pass.

Kisame and Itachi are also portrayed as nearly equals on multiple occasions

"At any rate i'm proud to be partners with you, the genius of the Uchiha, on the day you betray the Akatsuki, I will be entrusted with being a great step for that genius"

Even if Kisame is suggesting he'd lose if you wanna spin it that way, he himself thinks he'd push Itachi extremely hard
Itachi doesn't correct him.

They threatened to kill each other on their first meeting

And at the time of Kisame's death it's noted that "Kisame Hoshigaki, the monster of the mist and the man who was powerful enough to be partners with Itachi would die like this" 

2 instances minimum of them being compared to one another

But Itachi wank is creeping around again i've noticed, guess people just don't wanna accept that the 2 are portrayed as nearly equals.

Deal with it


----------



## Architect (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Eye contact of not Tsukuiyomi is eye contact kid


FTFY. What now, old man?


WorldsStrongest said:


> Wrong
> 
> He made eye contact yes, but that wasnt when he used genjutsu, that came later
> 
> ...


He still needed to get out of C4 range.


----------



## Architect (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Nope


yep


WorldsStrongest said:


> Did you just imply you need eye contact with both eyes to cast a genjutsu on someone?
> 
> Cuz if you are...


no.
I mean Deidara with one eye open seeing Sasuke's eye from that distance...you can't prove it.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 21, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> It's not "more or less BS"
> 
> It's pure BS


Whatever

Its moot regardless as i dont buy it

Nor have i ever


Troyse22 said:


> When I say SM Jiraiya>SM Naruto


I think you just like disagreeing with canon at this point

That or this is damage control for your relationship with @Serene Grace






Not to mention narutos better speed feats, strength feats, sensory feats, rasengan usage, clone game...

If you think Jman>Naruto as of teh Pain invasion...Youre arguing against canon...



Troyse22 said:


> When I say Orochimaru at full power is nearly god tier


Via ET i hope


Troyse22 said:


> Because I don't


Sure

Totally feasible to suggest he can beat EMS madara or Rinnegan Obito or Nagato

And hide behind NLF and blatantly incorrect information like Kisame can deal with anything near KCM speeds to do so


Troyse22 said:


> Because I don't
> 
> I simply take what the manga has given me


And twist the hell out of it


Troyse22 said:


> No, it doesn't actually


Yes it does


Troyse22 said:


> No not at all.
> 
> Kisame or Itachi would rip them apart


Not in the slightest

Kisame AND Itachi?

Yeah most likely

Individually?

Naw

Sasuek alone can push Itachi into a corner and damn near kill him per his own words, with the other 3 there, at ABSOLUTE worst Itachi would get outlasted

Kisame?

Soloing Team hebi?

Make a thread about it

I beg you


Troyse22 said:


>


Its okay

The truth hurts i know

Then again, coming from the guy who thinks sasuke needs rinnegan to beat Kisame (and claims he doesnt wank Kisame at the same time) i dont know what i expected


Troyse22 said:


> Because Sasuke was allowed to pass


Implying the team couldnt bulldoze Kisame if they had to

Adorable


Troyse22 said:


> Deal with it


Whenever i see this i cant help but laugh

You think i care if you put your foot down?

Lol

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 21, 2018)

Architect said:


> yep





Architect said:


> no.
> I mean Deidara with one eye open seeing Sasuke's eye from that distance...you can't prove it


I just did

You responding "yep" doesnt refute the fact that youre wrong

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Architect (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I just did
> 
> You responding "yep" doesnt refute the fact that youre wrong


it wouldn't if I actually was. But I am not.
Show me how that distance lies out of 10 meters range.


----------



## Architect (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I just did


where?


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 21, 2018)

Architect said:


> it wouldn't if I actually was. But I am not.


You sure are


Architect said:


> where?


Try reading my post for the first time i guess

When you debate, it helps to actually read what someone is saying to you

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Implying the team couldnt bulldoze Kisame if they had to
> 
> Adorable



They couldn't even bulldoze Base Killer B. Kisame was ragdolling V1 Killer B and mid-diffed V2 Killer B without any intent to kill him.
You criticize Troy when your own share of biases are more than apparent.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 21, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> When I say SM Jiraiya>SM Naruto


----------



## Architect (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> You sure are


Unfoundedly saying another debater is wrong helps you alot. Keep going.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Try reading my post for the first time i guess
> 
> When you debate, it helps to actually read what someone is saying to you


Sending me to nonexistent proof...This is how you do, got it.


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I think you just like disagreeing with canon at this point
> 
> That or this is damage control for your relationship with @Serene Grace
> 
> ...




I agree with the strength feats, sensory feats and clone game totally

But speed feats?

Didn't Jiraiya close the gap between him and preta before his shoe hit the ground from like a 30m distance?

That's fairly impressive Shunshin

I also believe Jiraiya is better in the long haul, provided he starts with SM with Ma and Pa, he has infinite SM, unlike Naruto

Jiraiya has better versatility, speed, and techs, wielding multiple elements at a high level, as well as having collab techs worked out with Bunta, Ma and Pa.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Via ET i hope



Ofc 

Him on his own with 2 arms still borders on high kage though

I've also regularly said Oro can beat Pein provided he's in the same situation as Jiraiya.

But tell me again how I downplay the Sannin, i'll wait



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sure
> 
> Totally feasible to suggest he can beat EMS madara or Rinnegan Obito or Nagato



It is, and i've laid out extremely detailed arguments for the Nagato and EMS Madara matchups.

Although I haven't done Rinne Obito yet.

Just gotta find the time to write it all down 

Regardless he loses it 7/10 times so it's a pretty moot discussion



WorldsStrongest said:


> Not in the slightest
> 
> Kisame AND Itachi?
> 
> ...




Way to conveniently ignore my points about the 2 being portrayed as near equals

Typical of an Itachi wanker



WorldsStrongest said:


> Its okay
> 
> The truth hurts i know
> 
> Then again, coming from the guy who thinks sasuke needs rinnegan to beat Kisame (and claims he doesnt wank Kisame at the same time) i dont know what i expected



He does though 

With Rinnegan Sasuke just Ameno's Samehada and cuts Kisame in half.

With Rinnegan there's no discussion

But just base Sasuke without Sharingan/Rinnegan precog and no ninjutsu?

Kisame shits with Waterdome



WorldsStrongest said:


> Implying the team couldnt bulldoze Kisame if they had to
> 
> Adorable



Obviously Sasuke didn't feel like they could


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 21, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> With Rinnegan there's no discussion
> 
> But just base Sasuke without Sharingan/Rinnegan precog and no ninjutsu?


well yeah...Michael Jordan without two arms probably couldn't have won 6 MVPs
Am I missing something here?


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 21, 2018)

Sasuke can hold his own against god tiers using nothing but his base stats, Sharingan precog & Taijutsu/Kenjutsu...so basically Troyse thinks Kisame is a god tier. Good to know 
Kappa


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 21, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Sasuke can hold his own against god tiers using nothing but his base stats, Sharingan precog & Taijutsu/Kenjutsu...so basically Troyse thinks Kisame is a god tier. Good to know
> Kappa





Troyse22 said:


> without Sharingan/Rinnegan precog and no ninjutsu?
> 
> Kisame shits with Waterdome


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 21, 2018)

You have to have the stats for the precog to be of any use...Adult Sauce can still trade blows with god tiers without using his precog or any Ninjutsu 

And more like Kisame gets done creating the Water Dome just to realize Sasuke already left the area with his Shunshin. If you wanna restrict Shunshin, then Sauce can just throw his sword through Kisame's face while he's still making Water Dome


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 21, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Adult Sauce can still trade blows with god tiers without using his precog



What are you basing this off of exactly?

I'd love to see him fight any god tier without Sharingan/MS/EMS/Rinnegan precog


----------



## Kisame (Mar 21, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Raikiri, Chidori, and Hell stab are three different jutsu that do a similar thing but have differences. Must be incomparable?


I don't know why you guys are having a hard time with this concept.

Just because there are similarities it doesn't mean you can make up other similarities that were not stated or shown but in fact from the only showing of the jutsu were stated and shown to be the opposite of it.



> The difference is Blocking Technique Absorbtion Seal is a barrier. It stops a jutsu from even reaching the one absorbing the Jutsu. Thus why Preta can completely neg V2 Lariat, stop KCM Naruto from getting his Rasengan or even his arm through etc.


Follow this logic:

1. In order for Preta to absorb, the jutsu/chakra needs to reach/touch the barrier to initiate the absorption.
2. In order for Daikoudan to absorb, the jutsu/chakra needs to be touched/clashing with/eaten by the shark.

Those are the *mechanisms *for the absorption.

If you can absorb jutsu by touching them, it doesn't matter how much of the jutsu your touching because in the end you're *absorbing it*. If touching it hurt you will never be able to *absorb anything in the first place.*



> Why does "regular" absorption have to have a limit?
> As you well know from seeing it, if a thing gets hit by more chakra than it can absorb at once, or a type the user can't handle problems can occur.


We're not talking about Samehada or Senjutsu.
An example: Kisame was able to neg a head butt because of the chakra boosting it being absorbed. Kisame gets a snack, grows stronger and continues on.



> When there was too much chakra to be fully absorbed before contact on the other hand (and remember Kisame did not state a limit prior to this either) Samehada and Kisame were both damaged.
> 
> Simply saying "but there was Absorbtion happening!" Over and over does not change the outcome that everyone saw.
> 
> Not being able to absorb *fast enough *is an issue unless something is just holding the Jutsu or jutsu user back (assuming it's something with a ton of chakra, if not like the  headbutt it's negged clearly) .


It doesn't matter because jutsu absorption is not affected by speed as we saw from Preta. This is fanfiction and we are not talking about Samehada for the millionth time.


> Again it's not like we are told the limits of Samehada (or anything else really) by him and it highly unlikely even he knew that he wouldn't be able to absorb all of B's cloak iirc.


I've responded to this but since you ignored it I'll post it again:
_1. Samehada's limit is *per contact, *it can absorb *infinite amounts of chakra *if the opponent keeps touching it._
_2. Samehada's final objective is to weaken the enemy and steal *all their chakra*. It does this through *multiple attempts throughout a battle*. All the "I get stronger in proportion to my opponent" and any Samehada hype is referencing how it does throughout a whole fight. _
_3. Daikoudan's goal is to *defeat the enemy jutsu in one clash*, So if we're being intellectually honest we should compare those goals of the two things: The limit doesn't make a difference._


> 1) cor·re·la·tion
> ˌkôrəˈlāSH(ə)n/
> _noun_
> 
> ...




This isn't an argument you win by getting the correct definition of a word, Kisame and Nagato both have huge chakra I guess that means they're just as strong right.

lol correlation lololol


> 3) Thinking that Absorbtion by a guy might be similar to other absorbtion by that same guy is probably less strange than you think lol.


I'll try again:

I've already said that just because it's the same person it doesn't mean the two things are identical. In fact we know this isn't the case because I've already outlined the differences between them a hundred times and explained why the "limit" argument doesn't make sense. If you're actually having trouble finding my arguments than just tell me and I'll redirect you to them. Not only that, but the fact it's the same person using absorption *again* would indicate it's *different *than the first one otherwise why _*repeat the same fucking technique*_.



> You feel it serves no purpose, but that your own feeling you are attaching to it.


How is it my own feeling when I've pointed out two fucking reasons in that same line? 


> Eating and growing stonger is the purpose of absorbtion lol.
> Him growing larger and having bigger spikes and fangs is clearly more formidable than normal as well btw.


Your correlation is weaker than mine (the one you didn't address) and only serves my point that the differences between Samehada and Daikoudan in this particular aspect are bigger than the similarites.


> Remember when Kisame clearly defined all that in his opening statement about Samehada?
> Of course not.
> We needed feats to fully define that like everything else.


 
That proves my point.

If Samehada's feats didn't prove it had a limit, then we would have to assume it's absorption had no limit.

You need feats to prove a limit, not feats to disprove it.

Thank you. 

Look, we got a statement outlining Samehada's limit, the Bee tries to outpower it and he succeeds.
We got a statement that outpowering Daikodan is even better for the jutsu.


> Again that's your inference. Kisame never said any of that surrounding stuff right?
> 
> You know all that from feats and not just him saying "My Samehada shaves away chakra" right?


 
You guys are the one bringing up comparisons between Daikodan and Samehada saying they are similar.

When I explain they are different.

Your response is that's just your opinion.


> If we are actually being honest we have seen Absorbtion per second be a problem before when there isn't a barrier or something holding back the Jutsu right?
> 
> Again look at Headbutt vs V2 Lariat. Both are absorbed. One gets negged and the other is too much to fast and damage gets through.
> 
> Heck V2 Lariat vs no barrier knocks his chest off even when blocked, but BTAS stops him from doing Jack even with a direct hit.


The difference between Samehada's absorption and other absorption is that it suffers physically from the attack. That's what been shown and stated regarding Samehada and you cannot transfer those feats to Daikodan or Preta because you like to.


> The type and speed of the absorbtion jutsu clearly matter.


Speed doesn't matter to Preta.

Yes the type of jutsu matters (senjutsu, jinton, Deidara's clay) but simply increasing the amount of chakra won't work because: 1. absorption negates that by nature of it being absorption 2. It's already a fact that more chakra = better for Daikodan


> Sorry I did not answer what you asked someone else


Because the arguments are the same.


> Because it wasn't growing and that tipped him off to the type of jutsu and surprised him. He was shocked that Guy had that kind of jutsu and says so right after he is hit.
> 
> He has literally just never seen a non chakra attack that big before.


I see you didn't understand my question, I'll re-phrase it:

Why were Kisame and Gai talking only about how Hirudora wasn't made of chakra and said nothing about it overpowering Daikoudan if all it took was enough firepower and it already had that?



> A more reasonable question would be why would Gai who does not use chakra attacks have a huge chakra attack?
> 
> How would that be more reasonable?


So you dodged the question...I'll ask again

Why would Kishimoto have Gai and Kisame's final trump card jutsu clash between a jutsu that absorbs chakra and a jutsu that doesn't have chakra? Why is the emphasis on the *type *of jutsu and not the *power *of the jutsu?



> An actually relevant and not straw man style question would be


It is not irrelevant because it establishes that some jutsu *cannot be overpowered *and you need a *way around them*.

Just because the question shakes you a bit you don't get to ignore it and call it a straw-man.

_Can you launch a physical attack powerful enough to overcome Kamui?_




> " Have we seen Absorbtion be over come enough to damage the thing doing the absorbtion?"
> 
> And the answer is yes.


We have never seen Preta reach a limit, he got turned to stone because of the type of chakra he was absorbing (Sage chakra).

What damaged Preta wasn't the strength of the jutsu but the type of chakra that is incompatible with absorption.

Samehada has been addressed.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 21, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> I mean, if that's what you'd prefer, then okay...


I was just guessing that's what you would prefer because my point are being ignored.


----------



## InfiniteHiraishin (Mar 21, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> What are you basing this off of exactly?
> 
> I'd love to see him fight any god tier without Sharingan/MS/EMS/Rinnegan precog


Uhhhh

God Tier Speed: Speedblitzed *JUUBI Madara* before he escaped to the Kamui dimension.

God Tier Durability: The ENTIRE final battle with Naruto is evidence for this.

I'd argue post EMS Sasuke is more intelligent than Kisame, but can't objectively argue this.


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Mar 21, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Troys view on that is headcanon anyway
> 
> , , Kisame also goes on to praise Deidaras techniques...One could just as easily argue he is lamenting Deidaras loss due to his strength and contributions to the group.
> 
> ...





Shark said:


> I don't know why you guys are having a hard time with this concept.
> 
> Just because there are similarities it doesn't mean you can make up other similarities that were not stated or shown but in fact from the only showing of the jutsu were stated and shown to be the opposite of it.
> 
> ...





Shark said:


> _1. Samehada's limit is *per contact, *it can absorb *infinite amounts of chakra *if the opponent keeps touching it.
> 2. Samehada's final objective is to weaken the enemy and steal *all their chakra*. It does this through *multiple attempts throughout a battle*. All the "I get stronger in proportion to my opponent" and any Samehada hype is referencing how it does throughout a whole fight.
> 3. Daikoudan's goal is to *defeat the enemy jutsu in one clash*, So if we're being intellectually honest we should compare those goals of the two things: The limit doesn't make a difference._
> 
> ...



Oh look! Now we have admitted to the thing I originally said. 


Hi no Ishi said:


> That's assuming that's it's more like Preta path than like Samehada.



Not It's does not absorb.
Not it does not grow.
Not I know exactly how it reacts to every things 
Or anything else you have mistaken it for.

I'm glad we came full circle, I guess.


----------



## Kisame (Mar 21, 2018)

I've already explained why it's closer to Preta than Samehada.

I've already explained that even if you want to compare the "limits" of Daikodan and Samehada you would have to compare how they would achieve their goals in which case both Samehada and Daikodan would be "infinite".

I've already explained that we have been told by the manga how the jutsu will work if you try to *overpower* it "it will get bigger". This is the manga telling you "lol don't think you're gonna overpower this technique because that's *exactly what this jutsu is made for*"

People seem to forget that Daikodan while is a very powerful jutsu can still be countered in many ways because while it has a hax ability it's not like the opponent is being forced to only use direct chakra attacks to counter it. Maybe if people remember this then they'd be more willing to accept that the jutsu will do what it is supposed to do when faced with more chakra.

For a jutsu that performs better the stronger the jutsu it's facing we need to focus less on "lol no limits fallacy" and how to actually counter the jutsu. the one and only time the jutsu was used it was *overpowered *by a *non-chakra attack*, that's the manga telling you "you need special jutsu not more firepower".


----------



## ThomasTheCat (Mar 21, 2018)

Shark said:


> I was just guessing that's what you would prefer because my point are being ignored.



I haven't ignored your points.

Perhaps I'm just failing to illustrate my own effectively

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------

