# Aang VS Edward elric



## death1217 (Jun 29, 2012)

Both are bloodlusted
location: Hyperbolic time chamber
Shown feats only (as I ain't listening to bloodbending bullshit)
Special conditions: they can each bring 1kg of any item they want

Who takes this?

If aang rapes add in Mustang
If Ed rapes, add in korra


----------



## Xiammes (Jun 29, 2012)

Ed makes a cannon and shoots him.


----------



## death1217 (Jun 29, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> Ed makes a cannon and shoots him.



what bout firebending? how ed gonna handle that?


----------



## Light Summers (Jun 29, 2012)

Aang wins without even needing Avater State. add in Mustang and Aang wins via Avatar State.


----------



## Darth (Jun 29, 2012)

Anything Ed Transmutes Aang can just dodge or bend back at him. 

IMO Aang takes this after a bit of work.


----------



## HiroshiSenju (Jun 29, 2012)

Can't Ed make a gun. If not, I'm not seeing how he defeats Aang.
Adding in Korra doesn't do much to help if the former happens. Adding in Mustang makes it a stomp for FMA, however.


----------



## Soledad Eterna (Jun 29, 2012)

Aang wins from what I know about FMA. Adding Korra will make it even worse.


----------



## death1217 (Jun 29, 2012)

and how exactly does aang win? are you guys forgetting where this is taking place: the hyperbolic time chamber, he won't be able to use neither water bending nor earthbending and I'm not sure if he can use air bending.  Also I believe Ed's greater intelligence will allow him to make the most of the special conditions. Speedwise there isn't really a huge difference and with mustang firebending is effectively neutralized


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 29, 2012)

Ed creates a machine gun and shoots Aang.


----------



## Spirit King (Jun 29, 2012)

death1217 said:


> and how exactly does aang win? are you guys forgetting where this is taking place: the hyperbolic time chamber, he won't be able to use neither water bending nor earthbending and I'm not sure if he can use air bending.  Also I believe Ed's greater intelligence will allow him to make the most of the special conditions. Speedwise there isn't really a huge difference and with mustang firebending is effectively neutralized



Technically wouldn't air bending mess up Mustangs explosions. He currently won't be able to control them if Aang can control the air currents at will.

Aang's best bet would be avatar state and producing something akin to a tornado followed by fire blasts before the oponents can regain composure. The guy can also fly but machine guns would be the greatest issue but that wouldn't be a problem at the start of the battle (Ed can't transmute shit he doesn't know what it's made of and at most it take time for him to figure out what the floor is made of).


----------



## I3igAl (Jun 29, 2012)

Spirit King said:


> Technically wouldn't air bending mess up Mustangs explosions. He currently won't be able to control them if Aang can control the air currents at will.



He would be able to, if he compares what Mustang is doing. I consider Aang being incinerated before he calls upon his fire-airshield more likely.


----------



## Spirit King (Jun 29, 2012)

I3igAl said:


> He would be able to, if he compares what Mustang is doing. I consider Aang being incinerated before he calls upon his fire-airshield more likely.



Mustangs ability works by manipulating the concentration of O2 in the atmosphere, you won't be able to control that shit if a large gust of wind especially continous is blown at you, hell there's a chance you would get hit by your own explosions.

Considering air attacks are aang's go to moves, Mustangs best bet would be attempting to get your at least one attack between the air  barrages, because once Aang goes avatar state he's fucked.


----------



## I3igAl (Jun 29, 2012)

Spirit King said:


> Mustangs ability works by manipulating the concentration of O2 in the atmosphere, you won't be able to control that shit if a large gust of wind especially continous is blown at you, hell there's a chance you would get hit by your own explosions.
> 
> Considering air attacks are aang's go to moves, Mustangs best bet would be attempting to get your at least one attack between the air  barrages, because once Aang goes avatar state he's fucked.



Yeah I know that strong winds sghould counter Mustangs ability, but he just has to snap his fingers and then he can keep spamming.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdv1ZuvuqXY[/YOUTUBE] He doesn't always move in that fire wind orb he fought Ozai in even in Avatar state(as seen at around 0:30). If Mustang manages to snip his fingers before he goes full tornado, he is caught.


----------



## Spirit King (Jun 29, 2012)

I3igAl said:


> Yeah I know that strong winds sghould counter Mustangs ability, but he just has to snap his fingers and then he can keep spamming.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdv1ZuvuqXY[/YOUTUBE] He doesn't always move in that fire wind orb he fought Ozai in even in Avatar state(as seen at around 0:30). If Mustang manages to snip his fingers before he goes full tornado, he is caught.



Actually air sphere is typically constant with Avatar state. He doesn't always have the rest but he does usually has air sphere when he goes it.

And like I said mustang can't spam it in case those explosions hit him.

So I'd probably say Aang has the advantage in that fight Mustang could pull out some wins but Aang would probably win more times than not.


----------



## Wan (Jun 29, 2012)

death1217 said:


> and how exactly does aang win? are you guys forgetting where this is taking place: the hyperbolic time chamber, he won't be able to use neither water bending nor earthbending and I'm not sure if he can use air bending.  Also I believe Ed's greater intelligence will allow him to make the most of the special conditions. Speedwise there isn't really a huge difference and with mustang firebending is effectively neutralized



If you knew this then you shouldn't have put the fight in the hyperbolic time chamber, or you should have given Aang a supply of earth and water.  At the very least, give him the rings he had in the fight with Ozai.  And yes, airbending would work; I'm pretty sure there's _air_ in the hyperbolic time chamber.

Anyways, Aang's flight gives him a distinct advantage.  If Ed were to transmute some sort of cannon (I don't believe he's transmuted sidearms before, only cannons) Aang's air shield could possibly stop or throw off the projectiles.  As for Mustang, Aang is probably the one of the worst people for him to face, as Aang's airbending can throw off his explosions.  If Aang is in the Avatar State with his constant air shield essentially Mustang can't scratch him.  I don't think Mustang has any way of neutralizing Aang's firebending, for that matter.

Question:  Could energybending be used to remove alchemy powers, under OBD equivalence rule?  Alchemy powers can be removed, as shown by the end of FMA.


----------



## I3igAl (Jun 29, 2012)

I'd say energybending should work. It hardly matters however, if Aang can imobilize his enemy enough to allow airbending it would already be a win.


----------



## DarkBladex96 (Jun 29, 2012)

Oman said:


> If you knew this then you shouldn't have put the fight in the hyperbolic time chamber, or you should have given Aang a supply of earth and water.  At the very least, give him the rings he had in the fight with Ozai.  And yes, airbending would work; I'm pretty sure there's _air_ in the hyperbolic time chamber.
> 
> Anyways, Aang's flight gives him a distinct advantage.  If Ed were to transmute some sort of cannon (I don't believe he's transmuted sidearms before, only cannons) Aang's air shield could possibly stop or throw off the projectiles.  As for Mustang, Aang is probably the one of the worst people for him to face, as Aang's airbending can throw off his explosions.  If Aang is in the Avatar State with his constant air shield essentially Mustang can't scratch him.  I don't think Mustang has any way of neutralizing Aang's firebending, for that matter.
> 
> Question:  Could energybending be used to remove alchemy powers, under OBD equivalence rule?  Alchemy powers can be removed, as shown by the end of FMA.



I don't see how it matters, it's the hyperbolic time chamber. can't that place transform, and just randomly (or at the occupants will) change the back drop.

I remember seeing fire, and ice and crap in there.


----------



## death1217 (Jun 29, 2012)

Spirit King said:


> (Ed can't transmute shit he doesn't know what it's made of and at most it take time for him to figure out what the floor is made of).





Oman said:


> If you knew this then you shouldn't have put the fight in the hyperbolic time chamber, or you should have given Aang a supply of earth and water.  At the very least, give him the rings he had in the fight with Ozai.  And yes, airbending would work; I'm pretty sure there's _air_ in the hyperbolic time chamber.



I've said they can both bring about a 1kg of any item they want, I believe ed could very likely transmute a gun and fire faster
and mustang can disrupt the oxygen in the air completely neutralizing the fire or deflecting it.


----------



## Spirit King (Jun 29, 2012)

death1217 said:


> I've said they can both bring about a 1kg of any item they want, I believe ed could very likely transmute a gun and fire faster
> and mustang can disrupt the oxygen in the air completely neutralizing the fire or deflecting it.



Precisely what is 1kg, that's quite litterally nothing unless your someone like Ed. If you don't see how that gimps of which any worthwhile earth bending he does uses up far more than 1kg in a single move, than you should perhaps deal with metric mass quantities more often.


----------



## Soledad Eterna (Jun 29, 2012)

Samavarti said:


> Ed creates a machine gun and shoots Aang.



Can he do it before Aang blows him away?


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 29, 2012)

Yeah, he just needs to clap and touch the floor, actually with the 1kg of any item they want he can get a philosopher's stone, and and he just needs to wish one.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 29, 2012)

Mustang makes it to easy, burns Aang's eyes out and then kills him.
Or shoots him.


Samavarti said:


> Yeah, he just needs to clap and touch the floor, actually with the 1kg of any item they want he can get a philosopher's stone, and and he just needs to wish one.



This.


----------



## death1217 (Jun 29, 2012)

Spirit King said:


> Precisely what is 1kg, that's quite litterally nothing unless your someone like Ed. If you don't see how that gimps of which any worthwhile earth bending he does uses up far more than 1kg in a single move, than you should perhaps deal with metric mass quantities more often.



Aang still has fire and air bending, If I would've given aang no restrictions then I would've given ed a philosophers stone as well, this match is to evaluate the skill and intellect of each fighter instead of pure raw power output.


----------



## DarkBladex96 (Jun 29, 2012)

Still want to know when edward has made a complex working machine requiring several different elements.

Where is he getting the metal to make the gun, one Kg of metal isnt enough to make a gun. Where is he going to get the material for a combustible black powder? without sulfur, saltpeter, and the material to make charcoal creating any firearm is pointless anyway.

So excuse me for being a little jerkish when I call bullshit, show me Ed creating a chambered firearm


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 29, 2012)

DarkBladex96 said:


> Still want to know when edward has made a complex working machine requiring several different elements.
> 
> Where is he getting the metal to make the gun, one Kg of metal isnt enough to make a gun. Where is he going to get the material for a combustible black powder? without sulfur, saltpeter, and the material to make charcoal creating any firearm is pointless anyway.
> 
> So excuse me for being a little jerkish when I call bullshit, show me Ed creating a chambered firearm


----------



## Waking Dreamer (Jun 29, 2012)

So does Ed win because he can transmute a canon with 1kg of material, or because he goes and makes himself a Philosopher's Stone....?


----------



## Whats_Out_The_ Bag (Jun 30, 2012)

*Listening to fmab opening "period" very good song anyways time to read op of this thread*

LMAO  this isn't even a battle this is a joke XD wow. 

When did Ed ever get to the level of being able to move faster than wind (not talking about aangs bending i'm talking about moving faster than aang). 
Cause he would need to be at least that fast to even touch aang at his base speed when he was only just an air bender. What i've been wondering which i hope someone else thought of is this kid aang or adult aang which really doesn't matter as both rape both ed and mustang, but just wanted to know.

As this is  blood lust aang which isn't good at all like it's crazy how powerful he is the only thing that kept him from blowing up everything or killing the fire lord was the fact he doesn't want to kill be since he's blood lust good bye ed and mustang. 
What makes things even worst is avatar state... my god this is a rape as seeing two past lives from aang there were an earth bending avatar who could use the avatar state to spit a island and then push it with air lol now aang having her powers combined with the avatar before him which  whom took on a volcano which even aang can do with just air bending in his base no other bending self, (DIDN'T ed and his bro have a big problem with that in a movie oh well doesn't matter) not to forget his air bending styles which means he's just to hard to hit. 

Yet i'm having trouble seeing how ed can even stop someone who has done this lol .

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKmluL9VRAs[/YOUTUBE]



Good bye ed and mustang you will be misted greatly. I feel like watching Avatar NOW


----------



## death1217 (Jun 30, 2012)

AnimeMasterZinc said:


> *Listening to fmab opening "period" very good song anyways time to read op of this thread*
> 
> LMAO  this isn't even a battle this is a joke XD wow.
> 
> When did Ed ever get to the level of being able to move faster than wind (not talking about aangs bending i'm talking about moving faster than aang).



Ed has an early bullet timing feat that is sometimes considered an outlier but considering that he is on par with scar who (forgive me if I've forgotten) also bullet timed and fought on par with a weakened bradley goes to show that he should be able to easily react to Aangs attacks,


----------



## Waking Dreamer (Jun 30, 2012)

Iroh has redirected real Lightning who should be comparable to Ozai who Aang has fought and redirected lightning from too.


----------



## Spirit King (Jun 30, 2012)

death1217 said:


> Aang still has fire and air bending, If I would've given aang no restrictions then I would've given ed a philosophers stone as well, this match is to evaluate the skill and intellect of each fighter instead of pure raw power output.



They're ability sets don't match up, one can make use of those those restrictions the other can not. It's basically a nerf. If you truly wanted to be fair remove the 1kg, Ed can transmute it into any material he wants that has nothing to do with intelligence it's an outright advantage.

Also if you hadn't realised you put no restrictions on the material which means Ed could bring a philosher's stone in this fight anyway.

So yes your restrictions are awful, unless your planning to nerf Aang because you deem Ed not powerful enough you should make them more fair.


----------



## death1217 (Jun 30, 2012)

Spirit King said:


> They're ability sets don't match up, one can make use of those those restrictions the other can not. It's basically a nerf. If you truly wanted to be fair remove the 1kg, Ed can transmute it into any material he wants that has nothing to do with intelligence it's an outright advantage.
> 
> Also if you hadn't realised you put no restrictions on the material which means Ed could bring a philosher's stone in this fight anyway.
> 
> So yes your restrictions are awful, unless your planning to nerf Aang because you deem Ed not powerful enough you should make them more fair.



Again, Aang could very like like drown ed with a kilo of water, this fight is meant to evaluate skill, and I'm banning  philosophers stone. Aang still has air bending and fire bending, and somewhat of earth bending as well considering that weird house in the chamber. If anything I'm nerfing Ed by not giving him access to a rich environment and a philosophers stone.


----------



## Spirit King (Jun 30, 2012)

death1217 said:


> Again, Aang could very like like drown ed with a kilo of water, this fight is meant to evaluate skill, and I'm banning  philosophers stone. Aang still has air bending and fire bending, and somewhat of earth bending as well considering that weird house in the chamber. If anything I'm nerfing Ed by not giving him access to a rich environment and a philosophers stone.



No your not, Ed transforms his environment into what what he wants (his primary ability), Aang can only use whats available to him. This scenario is a pretty big nerf against Aang regardless of how you look at it half his move set is gone.


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Jun 30, 2012)

What does "faster than the wind" even mean?


----------



## ggultra2764 (Jun 30, 2012)

I don't imagine Ed will be capable of transmuting anything too elaborate or complex using only 1 kg of any imaginable material. He might be able to make small firearms, but anything like cannons are out of the question with the restrictions in this match. Aang still has full access to Airbending, which will be a boon for him in terms of superior maneuverability and defense considering the kid's a master of using it.



> No your not, Ed transforms his environment into what what he wants (his primary ability), Aang can only use whats available to him. This scenario is a pretty big nerf against Aang regardless of how you look at it half his move set is gone.



Ed's not gonna know off hand what materials form the inside of the Time Chamber for this match. Outside of having what he brings with him per the match conditions, he's still gonna have to figure out what he can milk from the Chamber.


----------



## ShenLong Kazama (Jun 30, 2012)

Who's Ed?


----------



## HiroshiSenju (Jun 30, 2012)

Waking Dreamer said:


> Iroh has redirected real Lightning who should be comparable to Ozai who Aang has fought and redirected lightning from too.



Willy did a calc for that feat, and it turned out to not even be supersonic (I believe the outcome was 75m/s in reaction time). So yeah, it wasn't that impressive. Ed bullet timed early in the manga and ended up doing it again near the end of the manga. As far as this fight goes, however, Ed's only real hope is to make a gun and shoot Aang, and with prep he should be able to do so.



ShenLong Kazama said:


> Who's Ed?



Main character of the Fullmetal Alchemist manga (one of the best shounen manga of our time).


----------



## Wan (Jul 1, 2012)

Here's a my take on the calculation.

A , the kind that makes lightning, can form at a minimum of 2 KM above ground (max 16 km). Let's be generous and assume Iroh perceived the lightning at its starting point. He couldn't have perceived it before, after all. The speed of a leader of a bolt of lightning is , or about 60 km/s. Dividing 2 kilometers by 60 km/s leaves Iroh with a minimum of 33 milliseconds to react and gives him a reaction speed of 30 km/s.  Alternatively, if the cloud was 16 km high, Iroh's reaction time is 266 milliseconds and speed of 3.75 km/s.

That is quite significantly greater than supersonic speed.


----------



## HiroshiSenju (Jul 1, 2012)

Oman said:


> Here's a my take on the calculation.
> 
> A , the kind that makes lightning, can form at a minimum of 2 KM above ground (max 16 km). Let's be generous and assume Iroh perceived the lightning at its starting point. He couldn't have perceived it before, after all. The speed of a leader of a bolt of lightning is , or about 60 km/s. Dividing 2 kilometers by 60 km/s leaves Iroh with a minimum of 33 milliseconds to react and gives him a reaction speed of 30 km/s.  Alternatively, if the cloud was 16 km high, Iroh's reaction time is 266 milliseconds and speed of 3.75 km/s.
> 
> That is quite significantly greater than supersonic speed.



30km/s 
That's Mach 87+

Anyway, I'd love for Iroh to have massively hypersonic reaction time, but you'd have to take that into the meta battledome.


----------



## Darth (Jul 1, 2012)

HiroshiSenju said:


> 30km/s
> That's Mach 87+
> 
> Anyway, I'd love for Iroh to have massively hypersonic reaction time, but you'd have to take that into the meta battledome.



I think his point is that if Iroh has that reaction time, then Aang who accomplished the same feat vs Iroh's stronger brother Ozai, would also have that reaction time as well. 

Which, if true, would mean that Aang completely wipes the floor with Ed here. Which is what I'm personally inclined to believe.


----------



## HiroshiSenju (Jul 1, 2012)

Darth said:


> I think his point is that if Iroh has that reaction time, then Aang who accomplished the same feat vs Iroh's stronger brother Ozai, would also have that reaction time as well.
> 
> Which, if true, would mean that Aang completely wipes the floor with Ed here. Which is what I'm personally inclined to believe.



But Aang never redirected actual lightning. He redirected Ozai's lightning, which is not the same thing.


----------



## Bender (Jul 1, 2012)

Soledad Eterna said:


> Can he do it before Aang blows him away?



Ed's a bulletimer so yeah.


----------



## Banhammer (Jul 1, 2012)

Aang's a precog, so who gives a shit


----------



## Wan (Jul 1, 2012)

HiroshiSenju said:


> But Aang never redirected actual lightning. He redirected Ozai's lightning, which is not the same thing.



Says who?  And Aang has the completely separate feat of reacting to Combustion Man's explosion as it detonated.


----------



## Whats_Out_The_ Bag (Jul 1, 2012)

Why do people even care about speed feats aang still rapes him in terms of power as i've already stated and even showed a clip, the thing is when you debate speed doesn't win a battle all the time it's what the character can do if you want to go off on who can move the fastest sure go ahead, but i'll let you know that aang not only blasted him to death yet can move alot faster than him as base aang can run on top of water.

Kind of nice to see some one move fast enough to avoid breaking the surface tension of the water. The Blue Spirit episode from season one shows aang at a very fast speed as well.

Sorry for the bad voice over but yea thats his speed on water i'll try to find one on land
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSyQJfg7t-k[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## DarkBladex96 (Jul 2, 2012)

Samavarti said:


>



As i thought, cannons...not chambered firearms as like a pistol or rifle or machine gun which was implied in Eds sides arguments. He cant make those, he has no feats of making those.

And because of your own restrictions even a cannon would be worthless. because he could never bring enough metal for a large canon, nor would he have enough gunpowder for more then 1 shot.

Some people seem to not understand how little a kilogram is .he might be able to pull off a small snub nosed revolver but ive never seen Ed make something intricate like a 9mm and even if he could, thats 950 gs of metal gone right there...what about bullets and gunpowder. He could air burst it, but the velocity is going to be shit, and they have no idea about coilgun/gauss/electromag weaponry in FMA.

Ed is also not a bullet timer, based on a few observations.

1) he's never done it before (obviously)
2) He is just barely a match for scar
3) Scar being a bullet timer is questionable, he has never dodged an in flight projectile only avoided having a bead accurately placed on him. How they depict Scar's speed and vs how they made bradleys speed a point leads me to believe that Scar is just an apt aim dodger.


----------



## Samavarti (Jul 2, 2012)

DarkBladex96 said:


> As i thought, cannons...not chambered firearms as like a pistol or rifle or machine gun which was implied in Eds sides arguments. He cant make those, he has no feats of making those.


There is actually a rifile among Basque Grand weapons.



DarkBladex96 said:


> And because of your own restrictions even a cannon would be worthless. because he could never bring enough metal for a large canon, nor would he have enough gunpowder for more then 1 shot.


He wasn't in a metal floor full of gunpowder when he created the weapons, so moot point.



DarkBladex96 said:


> Some people seem to not understand how little a kilogram is .he might be able to pull off a small snub nosed revolver but ive never seen Ed make something intricate like a 9mm and even if he could, thats 950 gs of metal gone right there...what about bullets and gunpowder. He could air burst it, but the velocity is going to be shit, and they have no idea about coilgun/gauss/electromag weaponry in FMA.


See above.



DarkBladex96 said:


> Ed is also not a bullet timer, based on a few observations.


Yet he bullet times.



DarkBladex96 said:


> 1) he's never done it before (obviously)


He bullet timmed Colnello bullets.



DarkBladex96 said:


> 2) He is just barely a match for scar


He didn't got speedblitzed and killed, so the speed difference shouldn't be that big.


DarkBladex96 said:


> 3) Scar being a bullet timer is questionable, he has never dodged an in flight projectile only avoided having a bead accurately placed on him. How they depict Scar's speed and vs how they made bradleys speed a point leads me to believe that Scar is just an apt aim dodger.


You can't aimdoge 8 bullets, and lol at Hawkeye having bad accuracy, also he didn't got cut into ribbons when fighting Bradly which is alone an impressive speed feat.

Also he can get a Philosopher's Stone with the 1kg rule, so can create whatever he wants.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 2, 2012)

DarkBladex96 said:


> Some people seem to not understand how little a kilogram is.



More like you don't know how much it is here.

*Spoiler*: __ 








Any item, he gets the stone.


----------



## Waking Dreamer (Jul 2, 2012)

Philosopher's Stone is restricted.


----------



## paulatreides0 (Jul 2, 2012)

death1217 said:


> what bout firebending? how ed gonna handle that?



Because Ed never had to deal with Mustang before who unlike a firebender can make his flames explode out of pretty much nowhere, right?



Unlosing Ranger said:


> More like you don't know how much it is here.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure the stone is less massive than gold, hence less than a kilogram 



DarkBladex96 said:


> As i thought, cannons...not chambered firearms as like a pistol or rifle or machine gun which was implied in Eds sides arguments. He cant make those, he has no feats of making those.



What the fuckity-fuck-fuck? So then he can make a huge cannon but he can't make a simple gun out of his hand? Do you understand how absurdly stupid this is especially since the two designs are nearly identical in all but size.

Or what about the fact that Cornello, who was a _vastly_ inferior alchemist to Ed, and who had _nowhere near_ Ed's genius was able to make a gatling gun. And before you start saying: Oh he had a red stone, all a red stone really lets you do is circumvent the classical notions of equivalent exchange.

Simply because he hasn't made the specific object before doesn't mean he's incapable of doing so. Making said complicated systems is against _no_ known law of alchemy. Furthermore, _far_ less skilled people than Ed have been shown to make guns. Hence to say that Ed can't do the same with his arm is a crock of shit.



DarkBladex96 said:


> And because of your own restrictions even a cannon would be worthless. because he could never bring enough metal for a large canon, nor would he have enough gunpowder for more then 1 shot.



Good thing he has a whole metal arm then. And said arm provides more than enough metal to make it into a gun with several dozen bullets at least.



DarkBladex96 said:


> Some people seem to not understand how little a kilogram is .he might be able to pull off a small snub nosed revolver but ive never seen Ed make something intricate like a 9mm and even if he could, thats 950 gs of metal gone right there...what about bullets and gunpowder.



...need I start posting pictures of the guys arm being made of _fucking metal_? Ed has more than ample material to make a gun and bullets out of, especially if he takes in a kilo of metal and gunpowder to make bullets with.

Ed is also not a bullet timer, based on a few observations.



DarkBladex96 said:


> 1) he's never done it before (obviously)



Except he has, so you're talking out of your ass. Clear example in chapter 2 of the manga, unless you want to argue that Cornello's bullets were somehow subsonic or that it is now apparently possible to see through a wall of solid stone strong and thick enough to block bullets.



DarkBladex96 said:


> 2) He is just barely a match for scar



Who himself is a bullet timer.



DarkBladex96 said:


> 3) Scar being a bullet timer is questionable, he has never dodged an in flight projectile



Except for the time he dodged Hawkeye's rifle shot while fighting with Armstrong. Or the time before that when he dodged eight bullets from Hawkeye's pistol - sure, you can argue that maybe he aimed dodged the first one or two bullets, but you can't really aim dodge 8 bullets fired in rapid succession.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 2, 2012)

With the stone the very air itself may as well be made of bullets and guns.


----------



## Mabel (Jul 2, 2012)

bloodlusted right?
Ed takes a Pstone.
whats stopping him from just turning both avatars into the Stone?


----------



## DarkBladex96 (Jul 2, 2012)

> There is actually a rifile among Basque Grand weapons.



but thats not ed, so point?



> He wasn't in a metal floor full of gunpowder when he created the weapons, so moot point.



Lol you serious? youre trying to tell me what an alchemist can do, by ignoring what they cant do, and ignoring what they can do.

in case you forgot, edward is an alchemist and they can create things from other things. He doesnt need a floor covered in gunpowder when the enviroment has carbon, potassium, nitrogen, and sulfur. 

Also who said those cannons where made of metal? They are made of whatever he could gather to transmute them...youre straw grasping to try and take the point away from the simple fact that ED DOES NOT HAVE ENOUGH MATERIAL AVAILABLE TO MAKE A BATTERY OF GIANT CANNONS. He can't make more than a kilo of anything, unless he starts using the flesh of his body, the clothes on his back and the metal of his arm.



> Yet he bullet times.



no he doesnt.



> He bullet timmed Colnello bullets.



no he didnt.



> You can't aimdoge 8 bullets, and lol at Hawkeye having bad accuracy, also he didn't got cut into ribbons when fighting Bradly which is alone an impressive speed feat.



joke argument.

you can when youre looking at all the gunners and they are all on the same side of you. unless he was weaving between salvos of gun fire he likely aim dodged.

And finally association fallacy - just because the term is aim dodging, doesnt mean it has any correlation to the gunner's accuracy. Hawkeye could have the ability to hit an ameoba in the eyespot from the top of mount everest, if that ameoba decides to move the moment it notices her about to fire and moves shes going to miss. Scar has never reacted to an in flight projectile, he has always seen it coming and tried to avoid it, he always reacts to the situation of "about to be shot" not the bullet traveling.

Only confirmed bullet timer is bradley. And when scar fought wrath his ultimate eye was fucked up, and he was severely injured, his bullet timing was at the very beginning of his final appearance. by the time he fought scar he was hurt, tired, and didnt have his signature power. Likely way below bullet timing by this point yet was still too much for scar. scar only won because he surprised bradley with creation alchemy.


----------



## DarkBladex96 (Jul 2, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> More like you don't know how much it is here.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



I know exactly how much a kilo is which is why i know its not shit. an i didnt bring up the stone because that was almost definitely not allowed. as proven by OP post after you brought it up.

I also doubt a gun made of one of the softest pure metals is a good idea.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 2, 2012)

Ed takes a handgun loaded, shoots him.
And don't tell me he can't do that there are hand guns that can fit the weight requirement of 1 kg out there here.
Alchemy also enables such a lightweight gun much more easily along with bullets while still packing a punch of a much heavier gun.


----------



## Wan (Jul 2, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Ed takes a handgun loaded, shoots him.
> And don't tell me he can't do that there are hand guns that can fit the weight requirement of 1 kg out there here.
> Alchemy also enables such a lightweight gun much more easily along with bullets while still packing a punch of a much heavier gun.



...how?  Is this ever stated, or is it just something you're making up?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 2, 2012)

Oman said:


> ...how?  Is this ever stated, or is it just something you're making up?


Look at op, it says any item they want to take. I'm simply listing a possible object


First chapter, first episode it shows and tells you HOW it works.
It's even been shown in the thread.
He made cannons think that through.




You don't think alchemy could allow custom made weapons?
When it can fix radio's, meaning it can make then with said parts, or complex statues and cannons?

The item Ed takes is a custom made gun that's fully loaded total weight 1 kg, and if you can't take that a gun fully loaded has many moving parts he solidifies it into a single object beforehand and simple changes it back into a gun once he's in.
All of the things I'm saying right now are very possible because it's a part of the natural laws and ed is more than skilled enough to pull it off as well as bloodlusted.


----------



## Wan (Jul 2, 2012)

I know alchemy can be used to make complex objects.  However, you are trying to say that it can make an item that is not only complex but physically superior to what can be made without alchemy.  Do you have any evidence to support that?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 2, 2012)

Oman said:


> I know alchemy can be used to make complex objects.  However, you are trying to say that it can make an item that is not only complex but physically superior to what can be made without alchemy.  Do you have any evidence to support that?



Oh that?
I meant its use in ways that it would be impossible for us to make such things making them inherently better in that way.
Not that Alchemy made objects are always better, though they can be. A good example would be Armstrong's statues I believe.
I don't know what you are asking for when you ask for evidence of it though when it's a natural conclusion based on laws and our current limitations that I'm comparing it to.


----------



## Wan (Jul 2, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Oh that?
> I meant its use in ways that it would be impossible for us to make such things making them inherently better in that way.



This is exactly what I'm asking for evidence of.  More to the point, you need evidence that Ed _knows_ how to make superior objects when no such superior objects, or at least objects of the type in question (lightweight guns) have been shown to exist in the FMAverse.  Might as well say Ed can make a laser from of alchemy; there's the same amount of evidence for it.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 2, 2012)

Oman said:


> This is exactly what I'm asking for evidence of.  More to the point, you need evidence that Ed _knows_ how to make superior objects when no such superior objects, or at least objects of the type in question (lightweight guns) have been shown to exist in the FMAverse.  Might as well say Ed can make a laser from of alchemy; there's the same amount of evidence for it.



Not really there are no laser guns in FMA. 

The difference between them is they actually exist that's evidence enough. And again I point to the Radio I didn't say he would make a gun through alchemy, but given the materials he could.
Okay think about it in our worlds terms then if something was say impossible through normal means, but through alchemy it was. Wouldn't it make things better? 
They even fix their damn houses with alchemy for christs sake.
create spatial portals as well as  phase through matter
 Edward's first chapter
create spatial portals as well as  phase through matter Look at this guy that doesn't have an once of skill make a gattling gun.
What makes you think Ed would have any trouble with a gun given the right materials? 
Look he made a door out of a wall.
create spatial portals as well as  phase through matter
He totally can't make a gun given the right materials.
What's that 

What's that a military state with lightweight handguns?
NO FREAKING WAY? There is no way Ed could take a little weight off a pistol with alchemy I don't believe you.

No one could ever do anything impossible like making a gun out of lead in FMA,nope,nope,nope. OH wait they could.
It would be a very crappy gun, but they could.
It's the most obvious thing in the world, but don't let them tell you otherwise.

BTW. 
This handgun reaches that weight requirement.

Excuse me for thinking guns can be modified to be better or lighter in ways that is impossible for us in a place where science and magic combine.

Your asking me to prove a plothole however I can't do that even though it's very, very obvious they would be able to maybe they were to busy trying to make it where Father could get his power I don't know.


 Ed doesn't have to do a circle for every little thing, so he can transmute just about anything.Cannons,bladed items,spikes, etc. Anything that's possible with the materials given that means guns if he thinks of it and here he does as long as it's at the most 1 kg he is allowed to do it. He doesn't even have to make it from scratch like I SAID EARLIER  he can simply get a modified lightweight gun for the fight because apparently you think the handguns hawkeye and roy have weigh 6 million pounds.
Though on numerous occasions like oh the things in the spoilers there is evidence of manipulation.
Those cannon's may as well be the same thing as that gun you are asking for.
Because the laws are the same that's all there is to it.
 I already gave you the answer to begin with you see and if you say the same thing again I'll just keep copy and pasting the answer I already gave. Now shoo.


----------



## Wan (Jul 2, 2012)

Hold on there. I'm not questioning Ed's ability to simply make a handgun.  What I am questioning was your statement:



> Alchemy also enables such a lightweight gun much more easily along with bullets while still packing a punch of a much heavier gun.



Lightweight guns exist, sure.  Alchemy can make that.  Heavy guns which pack more of a punch exist, sure.  Alchemy can make that.  But lightweight guns that pack as much of a punch as heavy guns?  Those don't exist, or at least haven't been shown to exist in FMA (the M9 and P226 you linked to weren't invented in the real world until the 1980s, and military technology of FMA is more in line with early 20th century Earth).  You're essentially claiming that Ed can make something that he probably doesn't even know exists or can exist.   There's no more reason to believe that than to believe that Ed could make a laser gun.

And what in the world does making a large artillery piece with alchemy have to do with Ed's ability to make a worthwhile gun out of 1 kg of metal?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 2, 2012)

Oman said:


> Hold on there. I'm not questioning Ed's ability to simply make a handgun.  What I am questioning was your statement:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The tech in FMA is a mixed bag for one thing.
If you actually looked at hawkeye's guns you will see they are very in line with those that I showed or are similar.

Also you misread me I said heavier guns, not heavy guns. 
I wasn't claiming a handgun could do the damage a sniper rifle could or anything.
Though you can compare the handguns I already linked you and see what I mean.
Why would you even think I was claiming the latter is beyond me.


----------



## paulatreides0 (Jul 2, 2012)

Pick your poison


----------



## DarkBladex96 (Jul 2, 2012)

Notice how my points havent been refuted and they've been danced around. This thread is over, it needs to be closed.

you arent providing the evidence asked of you.

Repairing a radio is simply restoration of the damaged pieces and putting them back repairing houses putting stuff back where its suppose to be. I never said Alchemy couldnt do it. I said Ed couldnt. The most complex thing Ed has built is a building, which isnt that bad because he can skip the most tedious parts and he didnt have to do any underground work. Thats not hard at all, nor is it complicated.

Then you back peddle over your argument by saying "see he can make a door" (what?), yet the door is missing the complex part of its design...a lock.

Ed cant alchemy shit that he doesnt understand. If it worked like that he'd repair his own automail, maintain it on the fly with on hand metals, but he can't because he has no idea how it works.

Ed cant make a gun for the same reason i doubt he can make a modern lock, or a watch.

You have proven no where in this thread that Ed knows how to create operational small arms. Hell he created cannons likely because he doesnt know how to make artillery like howitzers. Size has nothing to do with it, him creating a cannon has no correlation to him creating a small arm.





Show me where ed creates working mechanism as complex or more complex then those.

Ed's not a mechanic, he doesn't understand how complex machines work... probably why Al fixed the radio.

He's not making a gun, of any size or model.

But then again, take your gun if you truly think he can make it. Because it would just be a paper weight without gunpowder.

what youve shown is a bunch of stuff people already know, and that Ed skips creating the complexed parts of structures.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 2, 2012)

I honestly don't care who wins but claiming Edward can't make a gun when Basch did?Edward's powers are the same as Basque. He alters molecules. As long as he knows what he's making and the materials needed, he can make it. This is how alchemy works, Kimbley uses knowledge on the human body to make bombs, Ed already knows the components that make up the human body, it's how deconstruction of beings is done in FMA by Scar and Ed can replicate Scar's power. Edward is intelligent enough to know what a gun is made of and how it works, he can use his powers in that manner. He has replicated greed's Ultimate shield using his automail while fending off Pride's attacks. He has created giant walls to trap those immortal soldiers before Mustang came and burnt them up. He has made cannons. Basque can do it, so can Edward. 

Nothing is being danced around, saying "No u" is not a valid argument tactic. Whether he can make one here within ROSAT is arguable but outside it definately is not.


----------



## paulatreides0 (Jul 2, 2012)

DarkBladex96 said:


> *Repairing a radio is simply restoration of the damaged pieces and putting them back* repairing houses putting stuff back where its suppose to be. I never said Alchemy couldnt do it. I said Ed couldnt.



I see you're talking out of your ass again. Except that to do so in the first place requires intimate knowledge of how to make a radio in the first place. Mind you, it isn't just being your average technician and using premade parts and putting them into preconfigured slots.

No, to fix a radio he must first know every single component of the radio, what goes where, and how each individual piece that makes the radio function is actually made (or else he couldn't make the replacement parts alchemically). To be able to fix it he must also be able to know how to construct it from the get-go, so your point is moot.



DarkBladex96 said:


> Then you back peddle over your argument by saying "see he can make a door" (what?), yet the door is missing the complex part of its design...a lock.



Because, of course, if you want a quick escape mechanism to escape from a room (why they built the door in the first place) there is nothing better than making a door with a lock that you're never going to use anyway unless you want to get locked in the place you're trying to escape from. Real smart of you there.



DarkBladex96 said:


> Ed cant alchemy shit that he doesnt understand.



That is true, yet that's not what is at issue here. What's at issue is that when you are presented with evidence, you wave it aside and say: "No, that doesn't count" without so much as providing a credible argument as to why it does not hold. Then you go on to rant how he never constructed something of said difficulty hence he can't do it.



DarkBladex96 said:


> If it worked like that he'd repair his own automail, maintain it on the fly with on hand metals, but he can't because he has no idea how it works.



And yet we _do_ know that Ed does do some maintenance on his own automail, albeit it's not as good as Winrey's. Also, let us not forget that within FMA an automail is a _far_ more complex piece of machinery than a gun or a radio to the point that automails aren't mass produced (unlike say...guns, which are actually very simple mechanisms) and require very specialized technicians to both hand craft them and repair them.



DarkBladex96 said:


> You have proven no where in this thread that Ed knows how to create operational small arms. Hell he created cannons likely because he doesnt know how to make artillery like howitzers.



Or largely because he doesn't need a fucking howitzer at close range. Because only an idiot tries to make a howitzer at close ranges.



DarkBladex96 said:


> Ed's not a mechanic, he doesn't understand how complex machines work... probably why Al fixed the radio.



Yet it's made very clear throughout all of FMA that Ed>>>>>>Al, and that whatever Al can do Ed can do better.



DarkBladex96 said:


> But then again, take your gun if you truly think he can make it. Because it would just be a paper weight without gunpowder.



Because gunpowder is so heavy, amirite?


----------



## paulatreides0 (Jul 2, 2012)

Also, to finally put this argument to rest. DarkBlade, you're over-exaggerating the complexity of a firearm. You know that picture you showed of all those pretty gears? Well, you're full of shit because that's nothing like the complexity of a gun. Here's a rough, blown out schematic of a gun:



The _vast_ majority of those parts are not even complex moving parts, they are solid parts to keep the gun casing together. The only real moving and "complex" parts in there are the springs and the pretty simple firing mechanism that connects the trigger to the hammer. And the _vast_ majority of the "complex moving parts" are really just springs.

Except for the automatic loading mechanism (which itself is mainly just a spring, really), there is very little difference between this and a cannon save for size.


----------



## hammer (Jul 2, 2012)

DarkBladex96 said:


> He's not making a gun,




*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Mabel (Jul 2, 2012)

dat spoiler.


----------



## death1217 (Jul 2, 2012)

hammer said:


> *Spoiler*: __


Have to spread


----------



## Waking Dreamer (Jul 2, 2012)

Will a low caliber bullet get through Aangs Air-Sphere?

Whats stopping Aang from blowing a tornado-speeds wind gust in the direction of Ed from the start?


----------



## Whats_Out_The_ Bag (Jul 2, 2012)

> Will a low caliber bullet get through Aangs Air-Sphere?
> 
> Whats stopping Aang from blowing a tornado-speeds wind gust in the direction of Ed from the start?



Thats what i'm like also why is this thread still going on i've already listed why he beats ed yet everyone keeps on talking about if ed can bullet time clearly it doesn't help him if he can do it or not seeing as he has nothing from stoping him from being nocked to heaven. 

Also what can ed do if aang just pulls him underground it's not like ed can get him self out if he can't clap or move.


----------



## paulatreides0 (Jul 2, 2012)

Waking Dreamer said:


> Will a low caliber bullet get through Aangs Air-Sphere?



That air would have to be going really, _really_ fast. Either that or Ed would have to be a relatively long distance away from Aang.



AnimeMasterZinc said:


> Thats what i'm like also why is this thread still going on i've already listed why he beats ed yet everyone keeps on talking about if ed can bullet time clearly it doesn't help him if he can do it or not seeing as he has nothing from stoping him from being nocked to heaven.



Actually, I don't care about the actual match itself. What's I'm more concerned about is the bullshit being spewed.



AnimeMasterZinc said:


> Also what can ed do if aang just pulls him underground it's not like ed can get him self out if he can't clap or move.



Ed could do the same to Aang 

Also, this is a question out of curiosity (due to my genuinely not remembering) but can you bend without motions (i.e. while standing still), and if so, what are some examples.


----------



## Waking Dreamer (Jul 2, 2012)

paulatreides0 said:


> That air would have to be going really, _really_ fast. Either that or Ed would have to be a relatively long distance away from Aang.



The Air-Sphere was able to crush through rock pillars by its sheer speed/pressure alone without slowing down Aangs forward motion through it iirc.

Aang's Airbending was also able to cool down lava into rock within a few seconds of touching it, and has shown to flick Ozai like a bouncing ragdoll at least 100 meters from where he was standing. 

Ed would need to be constantly moving because even if he was a bullet timer you cant dodge a house size gust of air by just leaning to one side.


----------



## Wan (Jul 2, 2012)

AnimeMasterZinc said:


> Also what can ed do if aang just pulls him underground it's not like ed can get him self out if he can't clap or move.



It's more like "what can Ed do if Aang just opens a gaping chasm under him and lets Ed fall down to the Earth's mantle".  But that would only work if they were fighting in a conventional real-world battleground, not the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.


----------



## paulatreides0 (Jul 2, 2012)

Waking Dreamer said:


> The Air-Sphere was able to crush through rock pillars by its sheer speed/pressure alone without slowing down Aangs forward motion through it iirc.
> 
> Aang's Airbending was also able to cool down lava into rock within a few seconds of touching it, and has shown to flick Ozai like a bouncing ragdoll at least 100 meters from where he was standing.
> 
> Ed would need to be constantly moving because even if he was a bullet timer you cant dodge a house size gust of air by just leaning to one side.



Was that in avatar mode?


----------



## Wan (Jul 2, 2012)

paulatreides0 said:


> Was that in avatar mode?



The crushing through rock pillars part, yes.  The cooling lava part, no.  Your point?


----------



## paulatreides0 (Jul 2, 2012)

Oman said:


> Yes crushing through rock pillars part, yes.  The cooling lava part, no.  Your point?



Well, curiosity mainly. If that's the case then Avatar-state Aang could do it, but idk about base Aang.

Also, I don't understand the hostility, I'm not arguing for or against either character. I am simply clearing up inaccuracies made about Ed and his abilities.


----------



## Wan (Jul 2, 2012)

paulatreides0 said:


> Well, curiosity mainly. If that's the case then Avatar-state Aang could do it, but idk about base Aang.
> 
> Also, I don't understand the hostility, I'm not arguing for or against either character. I am simply clearing up inaccuracies made about Ed and his abilities.



I'm sorry if I came across as hostile.  Whether or not Aang does something in the Avatar State should be irrelevant since Aang can use the Avatar State at will.


----------



## paulatreides0 (Jul 2, 2012)

Oman said:


> I'm sorry if I came across as hostile.  Whether or not Aang does something in the Avatar State should be irrelevant since Aang can use the Avatar State at will.



And no problem, I have the same problem myself sometimes 

Ah, okay. I wasn't aware of the last bit.


----------



## Wan (Jul 2, 2012)

Honestly, I think restricting Aang to base and enforcing  upon Ed would be a much more even and entertaining fight.


----------



## hammer (Jul 2, 2012)

I thought he needs to meditate


----------



## Wan (Jul 2, 2012)

Only briefly, and this is when he's not in the pressure of a combat situation:


----------



## hammer (Jul 2, 2012)

I dont think about adult aang in these threads, and he is in a combat situation.  Looks slower then clap and a press


----------



## Wan (Jul 2, 2012)

hammer said:


> I dont think about adult aang in these threads, and he is in a combat situation.  Looks slower then clap and a press



"The Promise" is set only a year after the main A:TLA series.  I wouldn't say "Breathe in, breathe out" is really any slower than clap and a press.


----------



## Whats_Out_The_ Bag (Jul 3, 2012)

paulatreides0 said:


> That air would have to be going really, _really_ fast. Either that or Ed would have to be a relatively long distance away from Aang.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yea i highly doubt that ed can do that bringing someone into the ground is possible but not as easily done as aang as aang could bring him self underground and pop up by hind ed. Now you asked when someone could do stuff like that while standing still heres your prof 



The guy in the back couldn't metal bend bend yet he bring him self up the slide behind him just by earth bending him self up.


----------



## Wan (Jul 3, 2012)

Base Aang is not as good of an earthbender as Bumi.  Not even close.  Avatar State Aang is better (and should have the same earth tunneling abilities, since Roku demonstrated them) but it hardly matters at that point since Aang can fly around well out of Ed's alchemy range.


----------



## paulatreides0 (Jul 3, 2012)

Oh, it's that crazy old guy. He was my favorite character in the entire show


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 3, 2012)

Bumi moves his nose or something if I remember.


----------



## hammer (Jul 3, 2012)

who the fuck compares bumi to ANYBODY


----------



## paulatreides0 (Jul 3, 2012)

Bumi>>>>>>>Everything else in Avatar-verse


----------



## Whats_Out_The_ Bag (Jul 3, 2012)

Now thats the dumbest statement i've heard in a while if your talking about being cool then your wrong as aang's son bumi is even cooler but chances are you where talking as if he was strong compared to everyone else like Toph? aang?


----------



## death1217 (Jul 3, 2012)

hammer said:


> who the fuck compares bumi to ANYBODY



^this, so much this, Bumi is epic


----------



## paulatreides0 (Jul 3, 2012)

AnimeMasterZinc said:


> Now thats the dumbest statement i've heard in a while if your talking about being cool then your wrong as aang's son bumi is even cooler but chances are you where talking as if he was strong compared to everyone else like Toph? aang?



I'd suggest that you have the decency to know what you are talking about before you open your mouth


----------



## Waking Dreamer (Jul 3, 2012)

So Aang wins this one by the end...right?


----------



## Wan (Jul 3, 2012)

IMHO, yes.


----------



## paulatreides0 (Jul 3, 2012)

Yes, he does.


----------



## death1217 (Jul 4, 2012)

paulatreides0 said:


> Yes, he does.



Even with back up from mustang?


----------



## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jul 4, 2012)

dragon of the west > bumi


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jul 5, 2012)

death1217 said:


> what bout firebending? how ed gonna handle that?



Quite easily.

Bearing in mind Edward arguably has more experience with 'generic' Alchemy than Roy Mustang (or clapping transmutation, either way). Not saying Edward wins or anything, but base Aang's level of Firebending isn't going to suffice against Ed.


----------



## Oceania (Jul 5, 2012)

paulatreides0 said:


> Bumi>>>>>>>Everything else in Avatar-verse



hahaha that is just really


OHHH Aang wins people


----------



## Wan (Jul 5, 2012)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Quite easily.
> 
> Bearing in mind Edward arguably has more experience with 'generic' Alchemy than Roy Mustang (or clapping transmutation, either way). Not saying Edward wins or anything, but base Aang's level of Firebending isn't going to suffice against Ed.



Aang isn't limited to base in this situation.  (Though Sozin's Comet was not stipulated...) Anyways, that really doesn't seem impressive compared to stuff like this:


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 6, 2012)

Oman said:


> Aang isn't limited to base in this situation.  (Though Sozin's Comet was not stipulated...) Anyways, that really doesn't seem impressive compared to stuff like this:


----------



## Wan (Jul 6, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> That's nothing that can't be blocked easily.



You might have a point if any of those feats were Ed's. Does this mean I can post Iroh's blast that broke through Ba Sing Se's wall and act like it helps Aang?


----------



## Mabel (Jul 6, 2012)

Ed can easily build wall that strong.

just sayian.

420 posts

SMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAYSMOKEWEEDEVERYDAY


----------



## Wan (Jul 6, 2012)

Scans plz.  And what the hell...?


----------



## Waking Dreamer (Jul 6, 2012)

I dont see Ed building a wall with only 1kg supply to transmute.

Roy Mustang is the bigger threat here, but not sure how effective his alchemy will be with gale force winds blowing in his direction.


----------



## Wan (Jul 6, 2012)

I maintain that Roy Mustang's attacks would be very ineffective against Aang.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 6, 2012)

Oman said:


> You might have a point if any of those feats were Ed's. Does this mean I can post Iroh's blast that broke through Ba Sing Se's wall and act like it helps Aang?



Same powerset as teacher, it may as well be.
He should be able to do the same.


----------



## Wan (Jul 6, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Same powerset as teacher, it may as well be.
> He should be able to do the same.



Alright, cool.  Iroh taught Zuko who taught Aang, so Aang should be able to do  the same fireblast as Iroh did.


----------



## Spirit King (Jul 6, 2012)

Oman said:


> Alright, cool.  Iroh taught Zuko who taught Aang, so Aang should be able to do  the same fireblast as Iroh did.



TBF Avatar state most probably could assuming it isn't a unique newly developed techique. He should be a top tier regular firebender anyway.

But your point still stands


----------



## Mabel (Jul 6, 2012)

Waking Dreamer said:


> I dont see Ed building a wall with only 1kg supply to transmute.
> 
> Roy Mustang is the bigger threat here, but not sure how effective his alchemy will be with gale force winds blowing in his direction.



which makes me wonder what is the ground in the Hyperbolic time chamber made of?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 6, 2012)

Oman said:


> Alright, cool.  Iroh taught Zuko who taught Aang, so Aang should be able to do  the same fireblast as Iroh did.



The power I'm talking about isn't something that can be taught in the traditional sense.
People who go to the gate see the TRUTH.
All of them see the same thing and knowledge depending on how far they go.
A better comparison would be the Avatar's shared knowledge.


----------



## Wan (Jul 6, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> The power I'm talking about isn't something that can be taught in the traditional sense.
> People who go to the gate see the TRUTH.
> All of them see the same thing and knowledge depending on how far they go.
> A better comparison would be the Avatar's shared knowledge.



Well yeah, the Gate is what allows them to use alchemy without drawing any circles.  But I don't remember anything about the Gate giving people a universal boost in alchemy power or skills.  So yeah, scans plz?


----------



## hammer (Jul 6, 2012)

Oman said:


> Well yeah, the Gate is what allows them to use alchemy without drawing any circles.  But I don't remember anything about the Gate giving people a universal boost in alchemy power or skills.  So yeah, scans plz?



there is a reason ed was the youngest state alchemist.


----------



## Wan (Jul 6, 2012)

hammer said:


> there is a reason ed was the youngest state alchemist.



Yes, because of natural talent he had before he even opened the Gate.  I mean, the guy tried human transmutation when he was just a kid.


----------



## hammer (Jul 6, 2012)

Oman said:


> Yes, because of natural talent he had before he even opened the Gate.  I mean, the guy tried human transmutation when he was just a kid.



they had to do a written test first


----------



## Wan (Jul 6, 2012)

hammer said:


> they had to do a written test first



...your point?  That still can fall under "natural talent", and IIRC he still had to study a bunch for it so he wasn't getting a free pass thanks to the Gate.


----------



## Spirit King (Jul 6, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> The power I'm talking about isn't something that can be taught in the traditional sense.
> People who go to the gate see the TRUTH.
> All of them see the same thing and knowledge depending on how far they go.
> A better comparison would be the Avatar's shared knowledge.



That's completely not how it works. The truth gives them better overall alchemy techniques though no circles but it's not automatically stronger. Everyone in FMA has very specialised alchemy, they could not for example copy Mustangs Alchemy at the very least you can't assume they can and the same with this. Your going into hyperbole to assume they can, no feats not being accepted.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 6, 2012)

Spirit King said:


> That's completely not how it works. The truth gives them better overall alchemy techniques though no circles but it's not automatically stronger. Everyone in FMA has very specialised alchemy,* they could not for example copy Mustangs Alchemy* at the very least you can't assume they can and the same with this. Your going into hyperbole to assume they can, no feats not being accepted.


Truth lets them do just about anything. Think about it everything needs a specialized circle for it
 Not overall better alchemy techniques though that happens though better understanding which Truth gives. 


Pcell
Pcell
I'm not even talking about specialized alchemy, I'm talking about building walls well within Ed's limits before the power boost at the end.


----------



## Spirit King (Jul 6, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Truth lets them do just about anything. Think about it everything needs a specialized circle for it
> Not overall better alchemy techniques though that happens though better understanding which Truth gives.
> 
> 
> ...



Umm no. Hyperbole at best. Just because someone saw a bunch of knowledge doesn't mean they absorbed all of it. Father was different, since he obviously understood more of it than they did and had been there far longer.

You can only give them on panel feats, anything else is quite simply wanking.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 6, 2012)

Spirit King said:


> Umm no. Hyperbole at best. Just because someone saw a bunch of knowledge doesn't mean they absorbed all of it. Father was different, since he obviously understood more of it than they did and had been there far longer.
> 
> You can only give them on panel feats, anything else is quite simply wanking.



*Spoiler*: __ 







 Totally can't make a bigger wall nope. The anime downplayed it so badly. Considering this is at the beginning as well.
You're just repeating what everyone else said with different words.
Ed can't make a gun  because it wasn't on panel(even though he's done more complicated things), Ed can't make a bigger wall because it wasn't on panel(even though he's done more impressive things). 

The essence of certain feats cover others even if they aren't on panel in that exact way.
He can very well make a bigger wall.
As could Roy,Teach,Al, and Hoenheim because it isn't specialized at all. It's a simple method of using what's already there and moving it how you wish. See first spoiler.
 Shared power.
Clap your hands. Teach's is more stylized, but they are in it's essence the same.
 Tell me how he managed that hmm?
Tell me where the knowledge of being able to do that comes from. 

Also you want to be technical Ed can't use alchemy here at all anyway. I mean unless you want to say the room provides power for alchemy or something which would be weird.


----------



## Spirit King (Jul 6, 2012)

Aang is mountain level + in DC thx to the various Avatar feats, that stuff ain't cutting it.


----------



## Wan (Jul 6, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Truth lets them do just about anything. Think about it everything needs a specialized circle for it
> Not overall better alchemy techniques though that happens though better understanding which Truth gives.
> 
> 
> ...





Unlosing Ranger said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You post a lot of stuff that does nothing to show that Ed can do the same feat that Izumi did which you posted before. You:

--haven't proven that the Gate increases alchemy power
--haven't proven that the Gate grants increased alchemy skill or knowledge
--haven't proven in any other way that Ed can automatically do feats which his teacher does.

All you've done is posted people...doing clap alchemy, sometimes to make stuff out of earth.  That last part is fine; I'm not questioning Ed's ability to make a wall.  What I am questioning is his ability to make a wall that would block Aang's firebending.  Doing an unprecedented feat like going into Pride simply shows that Ed is a creative and clever alchemist; it doesn't prove that he got that knowledge from the Gate.  So far you have not posted any feat to prove that Ed could block Aang's fire.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 6, 2012)

Oman said:


> You post a lot of stuff that does nothing to show that Ed can do the same feat that Izumi did which you posted before. You:
> 
> --haven't proven that the Gate increases alchemy power
> --haven't proven that the Gate grants increased alchemy skill or knowledge
> --haven't proven in any other way that Ed can automatically do feats which his teacher does.



I did all 3 of those you're ignoring it.
The grants grants greater knowledge of alchemy and the skill of not having to use a transmutation circle, which in turn increases the power of alchemy. That's 2.
The 3rd has been shown with comparative feats.



Spirit King said:


> Aang is mountain level + in DC thx to the various Avatar feats, that stuff ain't cutting it.



I would like to see proof of that with Aang in his regular form or even avatar form.


----------



## Waking Dreamer (Jul 6, 2012)

I think he wants to know how the TRUTH increases the alchemists powers in terms of combat abilities. IIRC, the TRUTH increases alchemy speed because you dont have to do the Transmutation circle. But does it actually make Mustang's fire any stronger...?

Aang can do whatever his previous Avatar incarnations have shown that's the lore. Not to mention it can be seen with how Korra can do energybending which Aang had learned before her in his lifetime. Though I doubt you need Mountain-level attacks to take down Ed and Mustang anyway.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 6, 2012)

Waking Dreamer said:


> I think he wants to know how the TRUTH increases the alchemists powers in terms of combat abilities. IIRC, the TRUTH increases alchemy speed because you dont have to do the Transmutation circle. But does it actually make Mustang's fire any stronger...?
> 
> Aang can do whatever his previous Avatar incarnations have shown that's the lore. Not to mention it can be seen with how Korra can do energybending which Aang had learned before her in his lifetime. Though I doubt you need Mountain-level attacks to take down Ed and Mustang anyway.


You see mustangs attacks at the end,quicker and bigger than usual.
Sometimes more speed means more power converting faster means you can convert more than you usually could.

None of the past avatars have shown anything mountain level to my knowledge, so show it.


----------



## Wan (Jul 6, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> I did all 3 of those you're ignoring it.
> The grants grants greater knowledge of alchemy and the skill of not having to use a transmutation circle, which in turn increases the power of alchemy. That's 2.
> The 3rd has been shown with comparative feats.



The thing is, you've posted stuff which _may_ have been caused by Ed or others seeing the gate.  Suggesting that it might have been the cause is not the same as proving it.  What I'm looking for is an explicit statement that "Seeing the Gate increases alchemy power or skill beyond simply not using transmutation circles" or even a character commenting "Huh, I couldn't do alchemy on that scale before".  You've done nothing of the sort.  Until then, alternate plausible explanations remain and you've proven nothing.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> You see mustangs attacks at the end,quicker and bigger than usual.
> Sometimes more speed means more power converting faster means you can convert more than you usually could.



Mustang's attacks don't seem that much bigger to me.  Maybe that one where Izumi's earth wall focuses his attack, but he's getting help for that.



> None of the past avatars have shown anything mountain level to my knowledge, so show it.



Damn Youtube keeps blocking this particular feat when I try to upload it, so you'll have to settle for screenshots.




Avatars can use mountain-busting level power when they need to.  They usually don't _need_ to, so they don't do it a lot, but they still can.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 7, 2012)

Oman said:


> Damn Youtube keeps blocking this particular feat when I try to upload it, so you'll have to settle for screenshots.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's not mountain level, not even close and I thought that is what you would use.


----------



## Wan (Jul 7, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> That's not mountain level, not even close and I thought that is what you would use.



Cutting down to the earth's mantle and moving an island with several mountains on it is not mountain level?


----------



## Waking Dreamer (Jul 7, 2012)

Not that mountain-level is required anyway...


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 7, 2012)

Oman said:


> Cutting down to the earth's mantle and moving an island with several mountains on it is not mountain level?


In destructiveness, you would have to prove it is.
You know what buoyancy is right?
If you can push a 200 pound boat in the water does it mean you can destroy it in one blow?
No.

She accelerated a natural process to separate it.
It happens with islands all of the time.


See all those mountains?
It was going to happen anyway.
It's impressive that she sped it up beating millions of years of time.
Instead of just saying it's mountain level how about you actually quantify it?
Who knows it could be less or more than you said.
Well unless there is a calc out for it already.


Waking Dreamer said:


> Not that mountain-level is required anyway...



Not that the time chamber even has the substance required to earth bend.


----------



## Waking Dreamer (Jul 7, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> In destructiveness, you would have to prove it is.
> You know what buoyancy is right?
> If you can push a 200 pound boat in the water does it mean you can destroy it in one blow?
> No.



Do islands float? Arent they connected to the sea floor which is the crust of the Earth?

Unless you mean floating on the Earth's mantle....? Either way doesnt that require seismic activity, there is a lot of energy required/produced with seismic activity.  




> Not that the time chamber even has the substance required to earth bend.



He wins with airbending anyway.


----------



## hammer (Jul 7, 2012)

now that I think about it he can only air and fire bend


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 7, 2012)

Waking Dreamer said:


> Do islands float? Arent they connected to the sea floor which is the crust of the Earth?
> 
> Unless you mean floating on the Earth's mantle....? Either way doesnt that require seismic activity, there is a lot of energy required/produced with seismic activity.



I wouldn't even call it seismic activity.
She's no whitebeard.




hammer said:


> now that I think about it he can only air and fire bend



Can he even air bend here?
The air is much denser after all.


----------



## hammer (Jul 7, 2012)

omg I forgot about that too


----------



## Wan (Jul 8, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> In destructiveness, you would have to prove it is.
> You know what buoyancy is right?
> If you can push a 200 pound boat in the water does it mean you can destroy it in one blow?
> No.
> ...



The "natural process" you speak of happens when a _whole continental plate_ moves, so Kyoshi was doing this independently from natural processes.  We only see Kyoshi sever the island from the mainland, not break the earth's crust all around the island.  Either Kyoshi had to push through the crust in front of the island the whole way or she was moving it on top of the crust.  In any case, it's a far, far greater feat than anyone in FMA has done.  Maybe Father could do it, but he hasn't demonstrated such power.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> Can he even air bend here?
> The air is much denser after all.



Ok, then Ed and Aang both die because the air is too dense to breath.


----------

