# Spoilers:  Team 8 vs Team 10



## PDQ (Jun 5, 2013)

Location:  Inside the barrier
Distance:  Opposite ends of the barrier
Mindset:  IC
Restriction:  Butterfly Mode

Scenario 1:  No knowledge
Scenario 2:  Manga knowledge

Team 10 has more of a teambased approach, but Team 8 has stronger individuals.


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## -JT- (Jun 5, 2013)

Ino locks onto all the members of Team 8. Giant Yoyo proceeds to smash everyone.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 5, 2013)

Giant YoYo formation isn't the best choice of actions imo. Kiba's new form can easily contend with Choji's YoYo while Shikamaru+Ino are basically defenseless in front of Jyuken and Kikaichu spam. Location favors team 8 too.


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## Synn (Jun 5, 2013)

Add some fodder Zetsus an Juubi babies as distractions, then we'll have a fair match.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 6, 2013)

I don't really see any kind of solid counter in team 10's arsenal for dealing with Hijutsu: , except for maybe simple exploding tags from Shikamaru. That more then anything else will be the difference in this match, since Kiba and Chouji will either stalemate each other or Kiba might come on top due to the piercing/cutting power of his Gagatenga. Shino could be attacking both Shikamaru and Ino at the same time and all the bugs flying around would make Shintenshin a very risky maneuver(since she may end up transferring into a kikaichu). Hinata may be the weakest one here considering her struggles in this latest chapter but 1vs1 she could probably take Ino even without Ino's Shintenshin being crippled.

I pretty heavily favor team 8 in this match-up. Not to say that team 8 is stronger overall but they're a bad match-up for team 10. Even if Chouji had butterfly mode, team 10 might still not be able to win as Shino could "suck him dry".


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## Bonly (Jun 6, 2013)

With Ino around and her improved speed with her Shintenshin, she has shown that it can curve as well as get two bodies in one go via Shinten Bunshin which means she could likely capture two members of team Kurenai. Ino has also been shown the power to heal which would be helpful if her members got hurt. Ino has recently shown that she can sense people(which I think was hinted during part one) as well as can transfer her thought to her teammates by some form of touch. This can greatly help in case Shino tries to have his bugs attack in a sneak attack fashion as well as can tell how many clones Kiba can make as well as tell where everyone on the battle field is at. 

Shika has shown to use his normal  Kagemane and quickly use Kage Nui right after so if any body on team Kurenai is caught by Shika, then he can impale them and end them or Ino can use Shintenshin on them or Choji to end them. Shika has also shown to use Kage–Kubishibari from a distance which sets up perfectly for Ino to use Shintenshin on said person. Thanks to Asuma's blades Shika can use  Kagemane Shuriken to hold them in place for Ino or Choji to deal with said person. Also if Shika makes any physical contact Shika can trap them in his shadows which leaves an open attack for a teammate but this can only work well if a member of team Kurenai doesn't land a deadly hit when they touch.

While Choji can't go BM in this thread, Choji can still expend and go belly flop on members of team Kurenai  this. His only problem would be Shino bugs as they should be fast enough to cover alot of Choji's body to stop him. Choji is really here to either land the finishing blow on an enemy who has been caught  by Shika or Ino, or to be used for their Yo-yo play. 

Team Kurenai members all haven't been blessed with much screen time to show off some new things to the same extent as team Asuma sadly. Kiba hasn't shown anything new since the time skip except for a bigger Akamaru, use of shadow clone(s), Jinjū Konbi Henge: Santōrō and  Ooigatenga . Most of Kiba's attacks are linear and easy to follow so rushing in towards Ino or Shika is asking to be easily caught. Kiba might have some good fire power on him but sadly with Ino around who can catch him in the range game as well as Shika during a closer range, Kiba fire power likely wouldn't do much here.

Hinata has improved but sadly most of her abilities are CQC wise and without showing anythign quite notable in speed to suggest to be to much for team Asuma, she wouldn't be able to speed blitz any of them nor move faster then Shika's shadows+ Ino's Shintenshin to not get caught. She has a mid range tech in her Hakke Kūshō but using it is only asking to be caught by Ino. Hinata basically can't do much here.

Shino is the main threat here for team Asuma. Shino has bug clones to help as well as having his bug do a good job against Obito and caught Obito completely and forced Obito to use Kamui. With the ability to absorb chakra Shino is quite deadly from afar and after this new chapter when Shino pulled out Kidaichū — Mushikui, Shino is also deadly a close range as one hit can take out any member from team Asuma. Sadly Shino is a stationary fighter most of the time which leaves him open to Ino's Shintenshin.

Team Asuma has also shown great synergy when taking out people while Team Kurenai on the other hand hasn't been blessed like team Asuma and synergy would play a good factor here. I'd favor Team Asuma here more times then not as its more likely for them to actually catch the members of team Kurenai and take them out eventually then the members of team Kurenai doing the same.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 6, 2013)

^Your analysis makes the fatal flaw of not considering team Kurenai actually attacking more then one at a time. Ino could counter Kiba's Soutourou/Santourou with Shintenshin yet I don't think Shino or Hinata are going to give her the opportunity to do so. As for Shikamaru, he can't exactly use Kage Mane on something that is gliding. 

Shino is the second best tactician of the K11 and one of the better we've seen in the manga. It would be childs play for him to counter Shintenshin by having some of his bugs fly around the front of him and pester Ino close up.


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## Bonly (Jun 6, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> ^Your analysis makes the fatal flaw of not considering team Kurenai actually attacking more then one at a time.



Doesn't matter as it all works out the same. No knowledge, pretty good distance. Lol even if they all rushed at once they are still going to be open to Ino's Shinten Bunshin/Shintenshin.



> Ino could counter Kiba's Soutourou/Santourou with Shintenshin yet I don't think Shino or Hinata are going to give her the opportunity to do so.



I was mainly just doing scenario one which means no knowledge. With each team starting on opposite sides of the barrier, how is Shino or Hinata going to stop Ino from having an opportunity to do such?



> As for Shikamaru, he can't exactly use Kage Mane on something that is gliding.



And this is stated where? I just remember that if his shadow catches another shadow, then his Kage Mane will be complete.



> Shino is the second best tactician of the K11 and one of the better we've seen in the manga. It would be childs play for him to counter Shintenshin by having some of his bugs fly around the front of him and pester Ino close up.



Shino has no knowledge on Ino and is mostly a stationary fighter. Why would he keep his bugs up to counter something he has no knowledge about as if he did?


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 6, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Doesn't matter as it all works out the same. No knowledge, pretty good distance. Lol even if they all rushed at once they are still going to be open to Ino's Shinten Bunshin/Shintenshin.


Why would they rush in? Shino has the farthest ranged jutsu in this match-up, he will be the one making the first move. You make it seem as if its so easy for Ino to land a Shintenshin on moving targets, especially one as fast as Kiba, when the stated weakness of the technique is that its very linear and is very risky since if it misses you're screwed.  




> I was mainly just doing scenario one which means no knowledge. With each team starting on opposite sides of the barrier, how is Shino or Hinata going to stop Ino from having an opportunity to do such?


So you're suggesting that Ino is just going to land a Shintenshin at very long range at opponents that aren't likely to just be standing still? 





> And this is stated where? I just remember that if his shadow catches another shadow, then his Kage Mane will be complete.


He manipulates the other person through his shadow attached to his shadow. If the other persons shadow is not connected to the body due to them being in mid-air, I don't see how its going to work.





> Shino has no knowledge on Ino and is mostly a stationary fighter. Why would he keep his bugs up to counter something he has no knowledge about as if he did?


If Ino has no knowledge, how would she know to target Shino? In any case, Shino's long range attacks are a for sure thing, whereas Ino's Shintenshin isn't and could very well miss.


My posts before this were made without knowing there was a no knowledge scenario. Missed that somehow when reading the OP and manga knowledge is the standard anyways.


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## Bonly (Jun 6, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Why would they rush in? Shino has the farthest ranged jutsu in this match-up, he will be the one making the first move. You make it seem as if its so easy for Ino to land a Shintenshin on moving targets, especially one as fast as Kiba, when the stated weakness of the technique is that its very linear and is very risky since if it misses you're screwed.



Never said they will rush in, just said that *if* they do it wouldn't matter, just an example. I make it seem easy because it pretty much is. Ino speed has easily increased quite a bit through its showing in the war. None of team Kurenai really move in a non linear fashion to suggest they will be hard to Ino to hit when they have no knowledge. 



> So you're suggesting that Ino is just going to land a Shintenshin at very long range at opponents that aren't likely to just be standing still?



More or less since most of the members don't move in a non linear fashion where she can't catch them.




> He manipulates the other person through his shadow attached to his shadow. If the other persons shadow is not connected to the body due to them being in mid-air, I don't see how its going to work.



Shika went and punched Hidan while Hidan seems to be in mid-air and Hidan was still effected by the justu as they both fell to the ground. If Shika can have his jutsu work on Hidan who was in mid-air then I can see it working on something that may be gliding.



> If Ino has no knowledge, how would she know to target Shino? In any case, Shino's long range attacks are a for sure thing, whereas Ino's Shintenshin isn't and could very well miss.



Never said she would know to target Shino. I just pointed out how Ino can catch any member of team Kurenai if they are left open in the whole post.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 6, 2013)

Choji needs and must fight kiba in multi size in this this battle or else kiba is gonna slaughter everyone. Multisize strikes to fend off bite and slashes while he uses human bullet tank to clash(unless he gets ripped up) with tail chasing fang over fang. I actually see kiba winning this clash therefore leaving choji out of the match or unable to continue unless ino heals him but she will not have the chance.

Ino will be devastated by hinata as soon as she closes in since she is not nearly as good in CQC as she is. Ino has nothing to put hinata down and while her technique have gotten faster she will not have time nor the aim and concentration to get it off. Air palms can also throw her off balance if she makes distance through some miracle.

Shino bugs are battlefield controllers so he can fight everyone at once in a sense and sap choji's chakra without him even really noticing until it really gets bad(obvious once he starts feeling way below par). Choji being so big makes him noticing a bug or a few quite unlikely at the start of the absorption(though he would be to busy with kiba anyway). Shino's could also send his great parasite into choji should choji give him the opening equaling to a instant-kill.

Shikamaru can try to stall kiba in wolf form being a big target since he will be "free" so to speak but he must watch out for shino's bugs and shino may have a large amount swarm him to stop him from doing his shadow moves. I do not see shikamaru defense against the bugs so he will be overwhelmed and removed from the match imo. He is not bad but the insects are too much for him since he has no shield, cloak, AOE attacks etc. 

I see team 8 taking this more times then not because the members got better offense as compared to ino shika cho who pretty much only have choji to rely on and deal damage with. If choji had BM then i think his team would take this but without it he gets stalled/beaten by kiba while his team dies.


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## Turrin (Jun 6, 2013)

Team 8 does not have stronger individuals. Every Member of Team 10 > Hinata. Choji & Shikkamaru > Shino. Kiba is the only one who can compare to Choji and Shikkamaru in strength, but ultimately Shikkamaru is the strongest/best out of all of them.

Shino and Hinata get crushed easily by Giant Choji. Kiba goes to use Cerberous, Shikkamaru shadow binds him and uses his laughably super strong shadow to smash Ceberous into the ground till it's dead. 

Team 10 rapes and I have no doubt that Kishi with his extreme bias to Team 10 would have them rape even harder than I can possibly imagine based on feats. Hell Kishi is so dam biased to Shikkamaru it wouldn't surprise me if Kishi had Shikka solo.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Team 8 does not have stronger individuals.Every Member of Team 10 > Hinata. Choji & Shikkamaru > Shino. Kiba is the only one who can compare to Choji and Shikkamaru in strength, but ultimately Shikkamaru is the strongest/best out of all of them.



What? You really think ino is stronger than/can win against hinata with manga knowledge? Hinata is of average speed and i have not seen ino's mind transfer blitz anyone around average speed. It has always hit due to a misdirection of sorts. Hinata can close the distance and hit her with a 64 palms since ino has nothing else besides her mind transfer. Ino has to be on the complete defensive or have protection to not get killed/use her technique.



> Shino and Hinata get crushed easily by Giant Choji. Kiba goes to use Cerberous, Shikkamaru shadow binds him and uses his laughably super strong shadow to smash Ceberous into the ground till it's dead.



Giant choji will not be activated faster than cerberus or at least i have not seen panel evidence suggesting so. Therefore when the two giants come on the battlefield they will clash. Shikamaru binding kiba is unlikely when a globe of insects is sapping his chakra/restricting his movements. He has no defense against that.



> Team 10 rapes and I have no doubt that Kishi with his extreme bias to Team 10 would have them rape even harder than I can possibly imagine based on feats. Hell Kishi is so dam biased to Shikkamaru it wouldn't surprise me if Kishi had Shikka solo.



Based on feats individual  members of team 8 have more battle power than individual members of team 10. Kishi is biased and could make that happen no matter how stupid it would be. But in the battledome there is no way in hell shikamaru can solo.


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## Turrin (Jun 7, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> What? You really think ino is stronger than/can win against hinata with manga knowledge? Hinata is of average speed and i have not seen ino's mind transfer blitz anyone around average speed. It has always hit due to a misdirection of sorts. Hinata can close the distance and hit her with a 64 palms since ino has nothing else besides her mind transfer. Ino has to be on the complete defensive or have protection to not get killed/use her technique.


Ino's Mind Transfer speed is incredibly fast. She mind transfers into Choji faster than Asuma can complete his attack and Asuma has a 4.5 in speed:
He won
He won

Also Ino is more than capable of creating her own distractions and I do not think Hinata can hit Ino considering Ino has shown good reflexes - again reacting to Asuma's attacks and clashing evenly with him:
He won

On top of that she can utilize high order chakra sensing to help evade attacks. Ino also has knowledge of the Hyuuga clan and Hinata, so she'd know to keep her distance. We're looking at a long drawn out battle, but eventually Ino should take this with a clever usage of Mind transfer.



> Giant choji will not be activated faster than cerberus or at least i have not seen panel evidence suggesting so. Therefore when the two giants come on the battlefield they will clash. .


Choji does not need to go Giant form, he can just go butterfly mode and that's enough to slaughter Shino and Hinata. And Choji has shown he can go butterfly mode instantly:
He won

Though after assuming Butterfly mode we've seen Choji multisize incredibly quickly:
He won



> Shikamaru binding kiba is unlikely when a globe of insects is sapping his chakra/restricting his movements. He has no defense against that.


The insects can be dealt with easily by Shikkamaru's shadow swatting them out of the air. Also if anything Shino would send the bugs after Choji once he see's all the chakra Choji is releasing



> Based on feats individual members of team 8 have more battle power than individual members of team 10. Kishi is biased and could make that happen no matter how stupid it would be. But in the battledome there is no way in hell shikamaru can solo.


Team 10 members have greater battle than Team 8. Again the only Team 8 member that can compare is Kiba. The BD accounts for the author's portrayal as it logically should, and the author has portrayed Shikkamaru as such a Goat, that I have no doubt in my mind he'd solo any member of Team 8, soloing the whole team maybe not, but i'm just saying that it wouldn't surprise me.

One has to understand that even before his war arc power ups (which have been very significant) Shikkamaru was able to beat Hidan. Hidan is much more lethal than Hinata and Shino, & at least close to as dangerous as Kiba. Choji was running around beating Edo Kakuzu and fighting GM, again no one else but perhaps Kiba is capable of these feats, and even than it would come down to how long Kiba can maintain ceberous.


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## Naiad (Jun 7, 2013)

Hinata is not blitzing Ino in c&c,remember ino can keep up with the likes of Asuma! I'm not saying Ino > Hinata in that area,but she isnt blitzed if she can take on someone who is even better skilled in taijutsu and speed than Hinata is!

Average speed is useless here,in case of Shintenshin! Ino instantly took over Obito in her second shot when he was about 500 metres away from her! once team 8 is rushing to team 10 Ino has 100% of taking one of them out with her Jutsu! 
With Shikamarus distraction or even without she has chances of hitting them even with Shintenbunshin and take out 2 of team 8,which would be fatal for team8!

Shikamaru is a bad matchup for Kiba,kiba is too linear! he is practically asking to get catched in shikas shadow jutsus! 

and Chouji is the greatest powerhouse of all! He offpanelwise soloed many highranks! he will reach immediatly bm mode if team 8 manages to hurt Ino or Shikamaru and go all out andd giving team 8 a lot lotlot trouble if he doesnt even kill most of them! Meanwhile Ino can healherself or Shikamaru,whoever would be hurt! 

Team 8 was well last chapter,but team 10 is still a lot more skilled and their teamwork is worlds above of team 8's!


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## True Uchiha (Jun 7, 2013)

Only real threat is shino, once hes dead its gg. Shika kagemanes shino. Ino uses shintenshin while chouji runs def. Ino self sacrifices and kills herself and shino. Shika roceeds to kagmane hinata and kiba, Choji stomps them into smears on the ground. 
Team 10 wins minus one blonde.


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## Synn (Jun 7, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Hinata can close the distance and hit her with a 64 palms since ino has nothing else besides her mind transfer.



Closing the distance makes it easier for Ino to target Hinata, actually. Chakra Hair Trap can also be used if necessary.

Hinata isn't faster than Ino, I'm afraid. Ino was able to keep up to Asuma in Chouji's body (who was confirmed to be slower than Ino and Shikamaru), while Hinata was able to keep up to Part 1 Neji.

Want to argue who's faster between Part 1 Neji and Part 2 Asuma? Because that would likely be a waste of time and effort from both of us.


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## -JT- (Jun 7, 2013)

Team 10 do definitely win Scenario 1.

None of Team 8 seem like they would pull their big guns out right away, so they likely rush in and do get taken out by Human Yo-yo, which is ISC's ideal formation for fighting several enemies, and thus they are very likely to use it.

As for Scenario 2, it's a tough call, as everyone is aware of each others' best techniques.

Shinten Bunshin could deal with Three Headed Wolf, but Ino's lifeless body being left is risky with Shino's bugs flying around everywhere. Giant Choji could definitely grapple with Three Headed Wolf too, but I can't see him defending himself against the Tail Chasing jutsu. Shikamaru's shadow can hold Giant Choji, so maybe he could do the same for Triple Headed Wolf too? It's uncertain.

Hinata wouldn't be too much of a threat. Getting in close makes it easier for Shikamaru to shadow bind her. Ino can at least hold Hinata off for a short while, thanks to her tango with Asuma, but would eventually be taken out if she lingers in CQC too long. Choji can just smash Hinata, but risks being taken out by her if he doesn't enlarge himself in time.

Shino could probably destroy Choji with his recent bug feat. It's a perfect counter to such a behemoth. Bug swarms would create more shadows for Shika to play with though. Ino's Shintenshin could catch Shino fairly easily, as he is a typical stationary fighter, but the bugs could then ravage her body...


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## Synn (Jun 7, 2013)

Team 8 doesn't have knowledge on _Shinten Bunshin_.


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## Naiad (Jun 7, 2013)

Shinten Bunshin could potentially solo to be honest! its true,they dont know it even with manga knowledge!


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 7, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Never said they will rush in, just said that *if* they do it wouldn't matter, just an example. I make it seem easy because it pretty much is. Ino speed has easily increased quite a bit through its showing in the war. None of team Kurenai really move in a non linear fashion to suggest they will be hard to Ino to hit when they have no knowledge.


Yet your stance isn't supported at all by the manga. We have never once seen Shintenshin hit a target in motion, let alone hit an opponent that is targeting the Yamanaka. The jutsu has been presented as basically a support jutsu that relies on the jutsus of others to be landed successfully in most cases(even against fully stationary Obito, Ino had Hinata's help). If there was ever a time for her to show off its improved speed to catch someone in motion, it was against Asuma but that never happened. One doesn't need to be zig-zagging all the time to not be hit by Shintenshin, just moving forward and around at ninja speeds is pretty much enough. Kiba isn't entirely linear in his movement either, he moves around like a feral beast when using Shikyaku no Jutsu.

There is also the fact that two of the three members on the team have advanced bunshin techniques, with Kiba having KBs. Hitting one of those wouldn't really be good for her, especially a mushi bunshin. The whole idea that Shinten Bunshin can catch two normal people is unfounded, she used it on dead Zetsu bodies that have no wills of their own to fight against her mind/soul invading them. Nor does it look to have much range or great targeting.





> Shika went and punched Hidan while Hidan seems to be in mid-air and Hidan was still effected by the justu as they both fell to the ground. If Shika can have his jutsu work on Hidan who was in mid-air then I can see it working on something that may be gliding.


The way it was presented, he had to make physical contact so that his shadow can latch onto Hidan's via direct contact. We see here that Asuma evades Kage Mane by jumping away, even though his shadow would have still been there.




Turrin said:


> Choji does not need to go Giant form, he can just go butterfly mode and that's enough to slaughter Shino and Hinata. And Choji has shown he can go butterfly mode instantly:
> here


Butterfly mode is restricted in this match-up.




> The insects can be dealt with easily by Shikkamaru's shadow swatting them out of the air.


Shadow swatting? Come on Turrin, you're better than that. Are you really suggesting that Shikamaru will be able to counter them by making a fly swatter from his shadows? Its believable that he could make a shape like that but I don't see how it would fend off this amount of bugs.


Team 10 members have greater battle than Team 8. Again the only Team 8 member that can compare is Kiba.[/quote]
Shino is portrayed as stronger than Kiba though and his Hijutsu: Mushidama is portrayed as a very powerful jutsu. It is the difference maker in this match that gives team 8 the edge by feats considering BM is restricted for Chouji.




> One has to understand that even before his war arc power ups (which have been very significant) Shikkamaru was able to beat Hidan. Hidan is much more lethal than Hinata and Shino, & at least close to as dangerous as Kiba.


While he was impressive there he had a lot of prep time to come up with ways to try and counter Hidan and set up a specific area for doing so. Hes the strongest individual in this match but despite much less screentime Shino isn't far behind him and has a jutsu that no one on team 10 can counter without a great deal of difficulty.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 7, 2013)

Synn said:


> Hinata isn't faster than Ino, I'm afraid. Ino was able to keep up to Asuma in Chouji's body (who was confirmed to be slower than Ino and Shikamaru), while Hinata was able to keep up to Part 1 Neji.
> 
> Want to argue who's faster between Part 1 Neji and Part 2 Asuma? Because that would likely be a waste of time and effort from both of us.


Are you saying that part 2 Chouji is faster than part 1 Neji? Thats the conclusion one must come to if you're saying Chouji=Asuma in speed, Hinata=part 1 Neji in speed and Asuma>part 1 Neji in speed so Ino>Hinata in speed. It doesn't add up. Nor is ability to block attacks from an opponent in Taijutsu mean you're faster than them or even close, that has more to do with reactions and Taijutsu skill.


I don't understand this Shinten Bunshin hype. Its a technique used once to take over the bodies of two close by dead Zetsu bodies yet now its supposed to be able to catch two members of team 8? That is pretty damn ludicrous. Yet Hijutsu: Mushidama which was presented as a pretty credible threat to Tobi and impressed Kakashi is just brushed off.


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## Bonly (Jun 7, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Yet your stance isn't supported at all by the manga. We have never once seen Shintenshin hit a target in motion, let alone hit an opponent that is targeting the Yamanaka. The jutsu has been presented as basically a support jutsu that relies on the jutsus of others to be landed successfully in most cases(even against fully stationary Obito, Ino had Hinata's help). If there was ever a time for her to show off its improved speed to catch someone in motion, it was against Asuma but that never happened. One doesn't need to be zig-zagging all the time to not be hit by Shintenshin, just moving forward and around at ninja speeds is pretty much enough. Kiba isn't entirely linear in his movement either, he moves around like a feral beast when using Shikyaku no Jutsu.



We also haven't seen Killer B's Bijuudama kill anyone. Does this mean that it can't? We haven't seen Naruto's Bijuudama kill anyone. Does this mean that it can't? We haven't seen anyone drown while stuck in a water prison jutsu. Does this means that no one will ever drown? Using the that logic of we haven't seen Shintenshin target in motion doesn't mean it's impossible.

The whole point of the fight against Asuma was to show off their Ino-Shika-Cho formation and to have Choji come out of his shell so of course Kishi didn't have Ino use Shintenshin on Asuma.



> There is also the fact that two of the three members on the team have advanced bunshin techniques, with Kiba having KBs. Hitting one of those wouldn't really be good for her, especially a mushi bunshin. The whole idea that Shinten Bunshin can catch two normal people is unfounded, she used it on dead Zetsu bodies that have no wills of their own to fight against her mind/soul invading them. Nor does it look to have much range or great targeting.




Then we'll have to agree to disagree. On the Shinten Bunshin part that is, I agree clone might present a problem.



> The way it was presented, he had to make physical contact so that his shadow can latch onto Hidan's via direct contact. We see here that Asuma evades Kage Mane by jumping away, even though his shadow would have still been there.



Was Hidan not in mid-air and still effected?


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 7, 2013)

Bonly said:


> We also haven't seen Killer B's Bijuudama kill anyone. Does this mean that it can't? We haven't seen Naruto's Bijuudama kill anyone. Does this mean that it can't? We haven't seen anyone drown while stuck in a water prison jutsu. Does this means that no one will ever drown? Using the that logic of we haven't seen Shintenshin target in motion doesn't mean it's impossible.


I never said it was impossible. Portrayal matters a lot. Bijuudama is portrayed as one of the very strongest techniques in the Naruto universe, so it can quite obviously kill anyone outside of other bijuus, Juubi, someone with Perfect Susanoo up, water logia Suigetsu and third Raikage. Lethal attacks don't usually hit because that would mean a quick end to important fights and the deaths of important characters. Shintenshin isn't a lethal attack however and it is portrayed as a technique that isn't suited for direct combat. 

Your comparison falls apart because those techniques are portrayed as lethal, whereas Shintenshin isn't portrayed as suitable for direct combat. Shinranshin is the more direct combat suited technique and I'll be happy for Ino when she learns it/shows it.





> Was Hidan not in mid-air and still effected?


Was Shikamaru on the ground away from Hidan catching his shadow on the floor, forcing Hidan down to the ground? As thats what he'd need to be able to do to a Garoga gliding Kiba but thats not what he was shown to be able to do(the Asuma case basically confirms it). Shikamaru could always try his luck punching Kiba while hes a living drill/destructo disk.


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## Bonly (Jun 7, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I never said it was impossible. Portrayal matters a lot. Bijuudama is portrayed as one of the very strongest techniques in the Naruto universe, so it can quite obviously kill anyone outside of other bijuus, Juubi, someone with Perfect Susanoo up, water logia Suigetsu and third Raikage. Lethal attacks don't usually hit because that would mean a quick end to important fights and the deaths of important characters. Shintenshin isn't a lethal attack however and it is portrayed as a technique that isn't suited for direct combat.
> 
> Your comparison falls apart because those techniques are portrayed as lethal, whereas Shintenshin isn't portrayed as suitable for direct combat. Shinranshin is the more direct combat suited technique and I'll be happy for Ino when she learns it/shows it.



Sorry but those attacks haven't killed anyone so your reason of "portrayal" doesn't matter, so in your words  "your stance isn't supported at all by the manga." since they never land a killing blow of some sorts.




> Was Shikamaru on the ground away from Hidan catching his shadow on the floor, forcing Hidan down to the ground? As thats what he'd need to be able to do to a Garoga gliding Kiba but thats not what he was shown to be able to do(the Asuma case basically confirms it). Shikamaru could always try his luck punching Kiba while hes a living drill/destructo disk.



Concession accepted.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 7, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Sorry but those attacks haven't killed anyone so your reason of "portrayal" doesn't matter, so in your words  "your stance isn't supported at all by the manga." since they never land a killing blow of some sorts.


So you're basically going to ignore manga portrayal and common sense just to argue that Ino can in your mind use a support technique to solo a team? Yeah there is no point continuing here, since your arguments are not based in reality.




> Concession accepted.


If you say so bro.


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## Bonly (Jun 7, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> *So you're basically going to ignore manga portrayal and common sense* just to argue that Ino can in your mind use a support technique to solo a team? Yeah there is no point continuing here, since your arguments are not based in reality.



Not at all, that would be you. What I'm saying is that Ino could take over a member of team Kurenai at some point during the fight if they are left open, due to the speed of her jutsu, the no knowledge team Kurenai has and most members being stationary and usually move in a linear fashion which should help Ino land Shintenshin. 

If you should to ignore common and don't think it can happen like I'm saying since thats my point that it can happen, then fine. If you chose to ignore manga portrayal which easily has Team Asuma as the better/stronger team and would think Kishi likely wouldn't portray them as winning, then fine. But don't put words in my mouth(post) by saying I think Ino will solo and don't say that I'm ignoring the bold when your just as guilty as me.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 7, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Not at all, that would be you.


Which one of us is trying to compare a jutsu stated to be more of a spying jutsu and not a combat jutsu []  unshown ability to hit opponents in direct combat to a jutsu that has blasted through mountain ranges and multiple giant metal gates(of which but one could stop Garoga, a jutsu that easily tore Sakon/Ukon in half) never having been shown on-panel killing someone? Its quite obvious that bijuudama is extremely lethal, whereas while Ino's Shintenshin is faster now than before it still hasn't proven itself to be highly combat effective.

I never said it was impossible or even highly unlikely she could land it, however the people acting like she could easily land it are being ludicrous.




> If you chose to ignore manga portrayal which easily has Team Asuma as the better/stronger team and would think Kishi likely wouldn't portray them as winning, then fine. But don't put words in my mouth(post) by saying I think Ino will solo and don't say that I'm ignoring the bold when your just as guilty as me.


Yeah you haven't even properly read my posts have you?



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I pretty heavily favor team 8 in this match-up. Not to say that team 8 is stronger overall but they're a bad match-up for team 10. Even if Chouji had butterfly mode, team 10 might still not be able to win as Shino could "suck him dry".



Team 10 is stronger from what we've seen and are Kishi's favored team. However, with the standard manga knowledge scenario team 8 is a bad match-up for team 10 from what we've seen. This being a battledome thread we work with the abilities we've seen used and nothing in team 10's arsenal can properly deal with Hijutsu: Mushidama, the strongest ranged jutsu in this match-up and his bugs also can almost fully neutralize Ino's Shintenshin. If the fight happened in the manga then team 10 would probably be given a technique to deal with Mushidama but thats not the discussion here.


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## Turrin (Jun 7, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Butterfly mode is restricted in this match-up.


I was just talking about the OP's assertion that in general strength Team 8 has stronger individuals, than Team 10. Hence bringing up Butterfly Mode. I know for the purpose of this match it's restricted, but I still think Team 10 wins w/o much difficulty. 



> Shadow swatting? Come on Turrin, you're better than that. Are you really suggesting that Shikamaru will be able to counter them by making a fly swatter from his shadows? Its believable that he could make a shape like that but I don't see how it would fend off this amount of bugs.


My explanation of how Shikkamaru could deal with the bugs was perhaps worded in to brief a manner. What I mean by "shadow swatting" was that Shikkamaru in general could deal with Shino's bugs quite easily with his Shadow. 

There are quite a few ways this can be accomplished. Shikkamaru carries both Flashbangs and a shit ton of explosive notes/explosive kunai. When Shino sends his bugs out towards Shikkamaru he can have his Shadow divide up into a huge amount of tendrils and than using Kageyose have them hurl the Explosives bombs and flashbangs at the incoming bugs. Considering the amount of explosive he can hurl at one time, that would be more than enough to deal with the bugs and any remainder he can than swat out of the sky with Kage Nui.

Alternatively Shikkamaru could use Shadow Clutch to pick up some giant boulder (or general piece of rubble) and use the increased surface area of that to swat the bugs out of the sky before they could reach them. 

Ether of these strategies or both combined would prove more than effective enough to deal with Shino's bugs.



> Shino is portrayed as stronger than Kiba though and his Hijutsu: Mushidama is portrayed as a very powerful jutsu.


Since when has Shino been better than Kiba? Kiba by the end of Part I was far superior to Shino and yet again he is getting better feats than Shino with KB, Cerberous, and his New Cerberous finisher move. I really don't see how Mushidama is better than all of that



> It is the difference maker in this match that gives team 8 the edge by feats considering BM is restricted for Chouji.


Not it doesn't. Shikkamaru would deal with the bugs with Mushi dama in the above ways I have illustrated with minor to at most mid difficulty. Choji could also deal with the bugs despite not having Butterfly Mode, by simply running them down with Human bolder every time they attempted to swarm him and swatting them out of the air with Chou Multi Size. 



> While he was impressive there he had a lot of prep time to come up with ways to try and counter Hidan and set up a specific area for doing so.


He didn't even need the prep to defeat Hidan, he had Hidan beat with Kagemane no Shuriken within about 2 seconds of the battle starting. He needed the prep to not just defeat Hidan, but get Hidan to use his curse against Kakuzu.



> Hes the strongest individual in this match but despite much less screentime Shino isn't far behind him and has a jutsu that no one on team 10 can counter without a great deal of difficulty.


I don't see why were putting so much stock into Mushi Dama. We do not know the rate at which Mushi Dama eats chakra and ultimately while the number of bugs conjured is impressive, they are still fragile bugs and there numbers can be quickly diminished. So I don't see Mushi Dama as that great of a Jutsu when compared to Shikkamaru's arsenal or even Choji's.



> This being a battledome thread we work with the abilities we've seen used and nothing in team 10's arsenal can properly deal with Hijutsu: Mushidama, the strongest ranged jutsu in this match-up and his bugs also can almost fully neutralize Ino's Shintenshin. If the fight happened in the manga then team 10 would probably be given a technique to deal with Mushidama but thats not the discussion here.


I'm sorry Wolfprince but I have to say this is false. Your applying KC rules to the BD. It's true in the KC we stick pretty much to feats and what a poster suggests a character can do with them. However in the BD portrayal is account for and there is no rule that says someone can not bring portrayal up as an argument. And honestly it just downright makes no sense, to ignore portrayal to the extent where you end up with a different conclusion than the one you think would occur in the manga. For example if you think Team 10 would win in the manga due to portrayal than you shouldn't try to argue Team 8 wins, as that's coming to the wrong conclusion, which makes no sense in the BD, since most of the time we are trying to figure out which characters within the context of the author's manga would beat which other characters.

I mean it's the same thing as saying friken Start of Part II Tenten beats Shodai Tsuchikage based on feats. Yeah sure Shodai Tsuchikage lacks the feats to show he can handle Tenten's weapon spam at this point, but what the hell does that really prove, when everyone dam well knows that Shodai Tsuchikage would annihilate Start of Part II Tenten.


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## Synn (Jun 7, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Are you saying that part 2 Chouji is faster than part 1 Neji?



I didn't mean anything more than what I already said, WPK.


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## Bonly (Jun 7, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Which one of us is trying to compare a jutsu stated to be more of a spying jutsu and not a combat jutsu []  unshown ability to hit opponents in direct combat to a jutsu that has blasted through mountain ranges and multiple giant metal gates(of which but one could stop Garoga, a jutsu that easily tore Sakon/Ukon in half) never having been shown on-panel killing someone? Its quite obvious that bijuudama is extremely lethal, whereas while Ino's Shintenshin is faster now than before it still hasn't proven itself to be highly combat effective.



You missed the point of what I was doing. Ino was able to stop Obito twice, take over Choji before Asuma could finish his attack and saved Shika from being stabbed by Kin(or Gin)Kaku. It has been shown to be highly combat effective in this war if someone is districted. wide open. 



> I never said it was impossible or even highly unlikely she could land it, however the people acting like she could easily land it are being ludicrous.



Honestly I don't care. If the fact that I made it seem easy for Ino to catch them if they were left open bothers you then sorry but if thats the only problem you have you my points on Ino's Shintenshin then we're done here as I can't do much more.



> Yeah you haven't even properly read my posts have you?
> 
> Team 10 is stronger from what we've seen and are Kishi's favored team. However, with the standard manga knowledge scenario team 8 is a bad match-up for team 10 from what we've seen.



Again, I'm talking about the Scenario 1 with no knowledge.




> This being a battledome thread we work with the abilities we've seen used and nothing in team 10's arsenal can properly deal with Hijutsu: Mushidama, the strongest ranged jutsu in this match-up and his bugs also can almost fully neutralize Ino's Shintenshin. If the fight happened in the manga then team 10 would probably be given a technique to deal with Mushidama but thats not the discussion here.



Either you're been in the wrong part of the Battle Dome or 90-95 percent of people who post in the NBD have been playing a year+ long joke on me making me think feats only is not the way to go lol.

Choji's arsenal might be able to deal with Hijutsu: Mushidama depending on which jutsu he used. The bugs haven't shown that if Choji hits them, they won't be unharmed nor have the bugs done anything to suggest that if Choji is spinning around like a ball, that they would be unharmed and still get on him. The bugs also haven't shown much speed to suggest that if Choji used Chō Baika at the last second.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 7, 2013)

@Bonly: If you think I'm a feats only person you haven't been reading my posts properly. I've been posting in the BD for quite awhile and know what its about, enough to be considered one of the top posters when I bother to post.





Turrin said:


> Since when has Shino been better than Kiba? Kiba by the end of Part I was far superior to Shino and yet again he is getting better feats than Shino with KB, Cerberous, and his New Cerberous finisher move. I really don't see how Mushidama is better than all of that


Kimimaro

Portrayal has Shino as stronger then Kiba. There is also the fact that Shino just had more impressive showings based off of who his opponents were. He easily defeated Zaku and stalemated Kankurou, who in part 1 was portrayed as one of the stronger competitors in the CE exams and is currently a Jonin. One could also bring up Kankurou saving Kiba against Sakon/Ukon even though I'd argue he only had an easy time of it because their chakra was already low from facing Kiba and Ukon not being used to being the one to move around got himself caught by Black Machine one-shot or whatever its called. 




> I don't see why were putting so much stock into Mushi Dama. We do not know the rate at which Mushi Dama eats chakra and ultimately while the number of bugs conjured is impressive, they are still fragile bugs and there numbers can be quickly diminished. So I don't see Mushi Dama as that great of a Jutsu when compared to Shikkamaru's arsenal or even Choji's.


Mushidama is not a perfect jutsu, it could be countered quite handily by AOE Katon or Futon attacks(though I'd think Shino would have some means to counter this, we haven't seen it). However, team 10 lacks AOE ninjutsu and I can't really put much faith in exploding tags doing the job, especially considering the speed of Mushidama. They'd be on or very close to Shikamaru and the others before they could use the tags to counter in most cases. Using explosive tags then would end up damaging them as well, though it would be worth it as just allowing them to stay on you




> I'm sorry Wolfprince but I have to say this is false. Your applying KC rules to the BD.


Actually I'm not. However you're applying Library rules to the BD. The KC is a place where we use the abilities ourselves via being the strategist and even there portrayal matters quite a lot. Thats a large part of the reason that the higher tiers win so often and that Itachi performs above his point cost quite a good deal.




> I mean it's the same thing as saying friken Start of Part II Tenten beats Shodai Tsuchikage based on feats. Yeah sure Shodai Tsuchikage lacks the feats to show he can handle Tenten's weapon spam at this point, but what the hell does that really prove, when everyone dam well knows that Shodai Tsuchikage would annihilate Start of Part II Tenten.


Turrin...bringing up this argument is kind of disrespectful to me. You've seen enough of my posts to be able to come to the conclusion that I'm not a feats above all else person, not even close. I'm actually quite the opposite(I'm one of the few non-Tsunade fans who has almost always argued in her favor against Kakashi), I just know my sections and where feats and portrayal stand in each. In the BD portrayal matters in that matches like the one you used as an example aren't even really allowed or are at least laughed out of the place, as there is such a large gap in power even if we don't know what techniques one of the party has. The chances of the weaker player being a bad match-up are so low that they don't matter and its not a worthwhile match. 

When there is no direct statement that one person would beat another and the difference in portrayed power isn't huge, then we get down to feats. Feats are subject to portrayal too, as I've already argued in my other posts. I personally just don't see the point in the battledome if a thread like this can just be answered "Kishi loves team 10 so he would undoubtedly make them win in the manga". That would make this a Library 2.0 to me. The main interest point of the BD is discussing how jutsus, fighting styles and IC actions would clash. There isn't a shown large enough gap for us to not get into feats and in this case, team 8's feats match up very well against team 10's feats. I was being cynical about team 8 probably losing in the manga. While I have no doubt team 10 is stronger in general, they have also gotten a lot more screentime and chance to show off their jutsu. Hinata is rather the weak link holding team 8 back really, as Shino and Kiba are portrayed as quite strong among their age group(excluding team 7 of course). Kiba even gave the stated strongest of the Sound 4 a run for his money, when Neji and Chouji tied with their opponents and Shikamaru needed to be saved same as Kiba.


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## Turrin (Jun 7, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> normal
> 
> Portrayal has Shino as stronger then Kiba. There is also the fact that Shino just had more impressive showings based off of who his opponents were. He easily defeated Zaku and stalemated Kankurou, who in part 1 was portrayed as one of the stronger competitors in the CE exams


I don't think referencing how a character was portrayed all the way back in the CE's makes sense. It's very easy to see how that is flawed by simply looking at other characters. Sakura was portrayed as one of the weakest in the CE's, but now is arguably one of the strongest & same thing goes for Choji as well.

Sure Shino was portrayed as stronger in the CE, but ever since then Kiba has gotten more panel time and more impressive displays than Shino has. Plus there is really nothing supporting that Shino has maintained his superiority over Kiba.



> and is currently a Jonin.


When was Shino made a Jonin?



> One could also bring up Kankurou saving Kiba against Sakon/Ukon even though I'd argue he only had an easy time of it because their chakra was already low from facing Kiba and Ukon not being used to being the one to move around got himself caught by Black Machine one-shot or whatever its called.


So if you know the points invalid why bring it up. I'd also add it's further invalidated because we're talking Shino not Kankuro.



> Mushidama is not a perfect jutsu, it could be countered quite handily by AOE Katon or Futon attacks(though I'd think Shino would have some means to counter this, we haven't seen it). However, team 10 lacks AOE ninjutsu and I can't really put much faith in exploding tags doing the job, especially considering the speed of Mushidama.


So wait Fire does the job, but mass explosions won't. The truth is both will get the job done, because were talking about bugs, which have no durability feats to speak of whatsoever.



> especially considering the speed of Mushidama. They'd be on or very close to Shikamaru and the others before they could use the tags to counter in most cases. Using explosive tags then would end up damaging them as well, though it would be worth it as just allowing them to stay on you


What speed feats do these bugs have that make you believe they can cover the starting distance before Shikkamaru (& his shadow) can hurl explosive tags at them. Your basically making out like these bugs are top tier speedsters on par with the likes of Raikage, Minato, etc... and I see no evidence for this whatsoever. 

You also fail to acknowledge my other points about how Team 10 can counter the bugs. 



> Actually I'm not. However you're applying Library rules to the BD. The KC is a place where we use the abilities ourselves via being the strategist and even there portrayal matters quite a lot. Thats a large part of the reason that the higher tiers win so often and that Itachi performs above his point cost quite a good deal.


You find me the BD rule that says we can't use portrayal as part of our argument and I will concede. Fact of the matter is I've been on the boards for longer than you and I have never once been presented with this rule, & I have consistently seen hype & portrayal used as part of arguments/debates/discussion that occurs here. So again unless you can present me that rule I maintain that the idea that one can only use feats to argue their point is something exclusive to the KC. 



> Turrin...bringing up this argument is kind of disrespectful to me. You've seen enough of my posts to be able to come to the conclusion that I'm not a feats above all else person, not even close. I'm actually quite the opposite(I'm one of the few non-Tsunade fans who has almost always argued in her favor against Kakashi), I just know my sections and where feats and portrayal stand in each.


I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but if you claim to know your sections than once again please show me the rule where it's stated portrayal can't be incorporated into an argument in the BD. Because from where I stand your claiming a rule for a section exists when it in-fact does not, which actually shows a lack of knowledge of your sections. 

The only BD rule is that your provide reasoning for saying X character win and don't just say Shikka is the greatest so he owns. But if you can effectively argue X Character win based on portrayal I don't see a rule against that. It's just that most of the time such an argument can't be made effectively when relying on portrayal alone, hence the need to incorporate a feat based element to our arguments. However I would argue, and essentially you already admitted that you agree, that in this instance Kishi has been clear enough in how he portrays Team 10 (& more notably Shikka) that Team 10 being the clear victor can be argued effectively on a purely portrayal basis.



> like the one you used as an example aren't even really allowed or are at least laughed out of the place, as there is such a large gap in power even if we don't know what techniques one of the party has. The chances of the weaker player being a bad match-up are so low that they don't matter and its not a worthwhile match.


And I'd argue that there is such a large gap in authorial bias between these two teams that it's laughable to expect Team 10 to not win out against Team 8. 



> When there is no direct statement that one person would beat another and the difference in portrayed power isn't huge, then we get down to feats. Feats are subject to portrayal too, as I've already argued in my other posts. I personally just don't see the point in the battledome if a thread like this can just be answered "Kishi loves team 10 so he would undoubtedly make them win in the manga". That would make this a Library 2.0 to me.


The point of the battledome is to arrive at an informed conclusion about who would win in a battle. Most of the time that will require feats, but there are times when it doesn't require feats or it can be argued from both a feats and potrayal perspective. Again in this case I would argue we don't need feats to know that Team 10 will be the clear victor simply due to sheer staggering amount of authorial bias in their favor. 

With that said, you still see me utilizing feats to support my point and discussing feats with you, so i'm not totally laughing your points away like a jackass, just because I know Kishi would never have Team 10 loose to Team 8.



> The main interest point of the BD is discussing how jutsus, fighting styles and IC actions would clash.


That's your interest point not everyones. Many people are just interested in figuring out who would win and hearing sensible arguments for why that's the case. Again in this case I'd argue that authorial bias is a very sensible argument for why Team 10 would undoubtably beat out Team 8.



> There isn't a shown large enough gap for us to not get into feats and in this case, team 8's feats match up very well against team 10's feats. I was being cynical about team 8 probably losing in the manga. While I have no doubt team 10 is stronger in general, they have also gotten a lot more screentime and chance to show off their jutsu. Hinata is rather the weak link holding team 8 back really, as Shino and Kiba are portrayed as quite strong among their age group(excluding team 7 of course). Kiba even gave the stated strongest of the Sound 4 a run for his money, when Neji and Chouji tied with their opponents and Shikamaru needed to be saved same as Kiba.


The problem is Shino is portrayed as one of the strongest back in CE, that is so long ago that it's almost pointless to bring it up. Kiba was portrayed as one of the strongest in Rescue Sasuke arc, but even that was a long ass time ago. Since then Kiba and Shino have done virtually nothing aside from showing off some pretty stronger Jutsu. But on the other hand we have Team 10 who are owning Akatsuki members, defeating Elite Jonin like Asuma, spear heading defeating Gin&Kin, commanding the entire alliance, mind transfering Obito, etc...

Fact of the matter is going off portrayal It seems like Team 10 are the most skilled rookies now; in terms of enemies they have fought and defeated as well as impact on major battles they have the other rookies beat by such an insane extent you might as well be comparing a Chuunin to a top Jonin or even Low Kage. And while this is speaking towards portrayal some of that had to bleed into feats and capabilities as well, I mean who in Team 8 has shown the CQC ability to go head to head with someone like Asuma, none of them and that's just to name one example. There are even more extreme examples than that.

So at one point I think we need to ask ourselves do the previous rankings of the Rookies established in the CE's still hold and imo they don't. Imo they have changed quite drastically and guys like Shino & Neji no longer rank near the top after Naruto & Sasuke, rather Team 10 & Sakura do.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 7, 2013)

Your entire post fails to acknowledge that I never said portrayal can't be incorporated into an argument. I actually strongly support the use of it and use it a lot myself, I just don't take it to the level which you do, which basically turns the BD into the Library 2.0.

I wasn't saying Shino was a Jonin there but Kankurou.


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## Turrin (Jun 7, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Your entire post fails to acknowledge that I never said portrayal can't be incorporated into an argument. I actually strongly support the use of it and use it a lot myself, I just don't take it to the level which you do, which basically turns the BD into the Library 2.0.
> 
> I wasn't saying Shino was a Jonin there but Kankurou.



I would agree with you that the BD would be pointless, if the Library allowed for the discussion of vs match ups, but that is something done pretty exclusively in the BD and is shut down rather quickly in the Library. Also another key difference is that in the BD conditions can be manipulate and if someone wanted they could stipulate a certain character is restricted to merely the Jutsu he/she has shown which would eliminate the ability to utilize portrayal. All of these factors are within the ability of the OP to manipulate, while this is not the case in the Library.

So it's not the Library 2.0 and also I have to stress that rarely is there a match up where portrayal can be used to effectively argue for one victory by itself. We just happened to stumble on one of those rare occurrences where that is indeed the case.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 7, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Ino's Mind Transfer speed is incredibly fast. She mind transfers into Choji faster than Asuma can complete his attack and Asuma has a 4.5 in speed:
> normal
> normal
> 
> ...



Those are good feats but notice how the targets were standing still and not focused on her. Asuma has a 4.5 in speed and i am sure that is for his movement speed not attacking speed. This is just one of the reasons databooks are not really good reference. Hidan has a 3.5 in speed and was on even footing with asuma...i mean seriously a whole tier of speed under.

What distractions can she do when a close range fighter with knowledge on her moves will be pressuring her? She is not a trap/diversion master like her clan member fu, there is nothing to hide behind. IMO hinata pretty much got her dead to rights here. Ino has reflexes but she would have to be on the defensive the whole time to not be beat by gentle fist. Keep in mind blocking means nothing she must dodge completely. Getting her jutsu off in such a scenario is just as likely as hinata hitting her and shutting her down. Ino has not shown to outstrip her peers level of general speed and is not noted to be a speedster of any kind so i cannot see her just dancing around hinata.

About her sensing i have not seen her use it without making handsigns/concentrating and even if she could trying to do that and aim to hinata hinata while defending is unlikely. Hinata also got knowledge so she can keep on ino and move accordingly to keep her pressured. If ino misses she is left open for a 64 palms.   




> Choji does not need to go Giant form, he can just go butterfly mode and that's enough to slaughter Shino and Hinata. And Choji has shown he can go butterfly mode instantly:
> normal
> 
> Though after assuming Butterfly mode we've seen Choji multisize incredibly quickly:
> normal



Well while i agree that team 10 wins with BM it is restricted here. Choji can multisize very quickly(quicker than kiba) but enough to do it and hit kiba before he can do anything? Nah man the gap is not that big. With that being said the two giants will clash before choji smash anyone which would take him jumping or going for a human boulder. He will be met by a cerberus or Ooigatenga.




> The insects can be dealt with easily by Shikkamaru's shadow swatting them out of the air. Also if anything Shino would send the bugs after Choji once he see's all the chakra Choji is releasing



Shikamaru would literally have to create like hundreds of tendrils to smack down shino's bugs which numbers in thousands. Unless you have a large AOE move destroying all of shino's bugs is not gonna happen. Shikamaru could struggle but he can only maintain so many before they start slipping past/flying in multiple directions/ burrowing underground to move etc.

As for bugs being sent towards choji that is what shino will do only if he knows it benefits him. If he feels he needs them all to fight shikamaru's shadow imitation then he will leave choji to kiba. Shino is one of the most tactical shinobi after all though i feel like he could send some to eat at choji without him even realizing it. Keep in mind shino can potentially one shot choji with his great parasite.




> Team 10 members have greater battle than Team 8. Again the only Team 8 member that can compare is Kiba. The BD accounts for the author's portrayal as it logically should, and the author has portrayed Shikkamaru as such a Goat, that I have no doubt in my mind he'd solo any member of Team 8, soloing the whole team maybe not, but i'm just saying that it wouldn't surprise me.



Team 10 are a greater team than team 8 when it comes to teamwork that much is very obvious. Kiba can compare in firepower i agree, but i think shino can compare due to his unique and dangerous moveset. Hinata is lagging behind in overall skills but ino being a non battle type can be stalled and even dealt with by her. 



> One has to understand that even before his war arc power ups (which have been very significant) Shikkamaru was able to beat Hidan. Hidan is much more lethal than Hinata and Shino, & at least close to as dangerous as Kiba.



Shikamaru beat hidan due to prep time, teamwork and intelligence. Despite hidan being very dangerous he was underestimating his opponent. Give shika prep time here and he could just rigged the floor and set up explosives tags to blow up everyone like he did hidan. I understand that kishimoto was implying that "he is the rookie to look out for" but he is still in a comparable league to his classmates.  In the manga team 10 would triumph most likely to kishi bias but here i am looking at the abilities of the combatants and team 10 is just badly matched here. Particularly against shino's insects.



> Choji was running around beating Edo Kakuzu and fighting GM, again no one else but perhaps Kiba is capable of these feats, and even than it would come down to how long Kiba can maintain ceberous.



While choji was the meat and potatos of that battle he still had the help from a entire division including a very powerful kekkai genkai user and personal right hand of the raikage the head of the hyuuga clan and the leader of the akimichi's including others powerful people. Choji stomping a edo mid ranking akatsuki by himself is not happening.

He fought gedo mazo in BM and still got stomped. While he was portrayed as a "giant combater" i am also most certain that cerberus kiba would get handle the same way a multi-size choji would. Choji being in BM just made it look less worse lol. As for how long kiba can keep it up well i think a decent amount of time. He could split his chakra among a shadow clone and then perform 2 high level techniques afterwards with no problem.


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## KevKev (Jun 8, 2013)

Well, Team 10 would one-shot all because of Sha-

You know what, fuck Hinata and Kiba, Shino soloes with that deadly bug thing


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## Synn (Jun 8, 2013)

KevKev said:


> Shino soloes with that deadly bug thing



Do you realize he needs to be in contact with the opponent to use that technique? Considering the opposing team, coming close is the least likely scenario to happen.


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## KevKev (Jun 8, 2013)

This shouldn't be a problem, Shino can distract them first with a wave of bugs... I mean Ino will be distracted for sure, Shikamaru and Chouji Idk


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## izanagi x izanami (Jun 8, 2013)

butterfly choiji soloes  or Ino with mind controlled puppets soloes


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## Synn (Jun 9, 2013)

KevKev said:


> This shouldn't be a problem, Shino can distract them first with a wave of bugs... I mean Ino will be distracted for sure, Shikamaru and Chouji Idk



She won't fall for that in scenario 2. She'll definitely know it's a distraction in order for him to get close. And even if he does in Scenario 1, Shikamaru will stop him.


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## Kurama (Jun 9, 2013)

Shino can uae his bugs to jam Ino's sensing ability and drain shikamaru's chakra, kiba can hold off Chouji as Hinata takes out his teammates. Then Chouji gets drained/tenketsu plugged with lions/ gatsuuga'd til he can't take anymore.


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## Naiad (Jun 9, 2013)

Ino can snipe Hinata and pressure Shino in Taijutsu! He cant use his new technique on Hinata and against Inos taijutsu skills Shino will lose! Shikamaru and Chouji can easily deal with Kiba! and the rest of team 10 will deal with hinata after kiba is joins Shino


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## Kurama (Jun 9, 2013)

Ino's taijutsu is not all that remarkable. Lasting two seconds against Asuma does not suddenly make her a cqc specialist. She is as much of a support as Shino is long/mid range. She is not overwhelming him, and she still has Hinata to worry about who would take her to taijutsu school. Shika isn't hiding from byakugan, bugs or kiba's nose and speed long enough to strategize and effective counter attack.

Sniping a Hyuuga. Okay. With what exactly? And how will she get around eating a Hakke Kusho?

Kiba vs Chouji is a stalemate without Shino draining Chouji.


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## Naiad (Jun 10, 2013)

it is! she fought him easily over several panels WHILE having a chat with chouji! this is definitly remarkable! And dont forget she fought him through zetus body that put him on the defence! Shino cant compare!
And she doesnt need to worry about Hinata because Hinata get sniped with Shintenshin no difficulties and uses her body to pressure Shino in Taijutsu or maybe even kill! Shino cant use his new bug technique ,because he would kill hinatas body with it!

Shintenshin is too fast for Hinata , here the reason;



> Ino doesnt need any distraction! Team 8 has a good distance and the closer they come the even easier ino can switch them! Here are good examples for Shintenshins speed! You can see here 1 that Ino is standing next to Shikamaru!She is doing her jutsu right in the next chapter,and immediatly possesses him and already act through Obito with juubis body to make his attempt to kill the akimichis fail! In the next page 1 you can see what distance is between the juubi and Shikamaru(and Ino who is standing next to Shikamaru in the Page before! those are easily 500 metres,and still Ino managed to possess Obito instantlys! so you have a good Idea how she is blitzing anyone of team 8 thats going a straight line! none of them possesses any speed to avoid Shintenshin once its shot! You could argue that the Speed is thx to Narutos Kyubi Chakra! But like all the other technqiues like kagemane or hinatas Airpalm it only got boosted by its strength! Nor Kagemane,nor Air wall palm nor Shintenshin got a speed bost,as you can see that,while ino already possessed Obito and handled though him,Shikamarus shadow only expanded 3 metres!
> So all in all; Shintenshin is undodgeable for team 8 in a closer distance like <200 metres with straight moving,and Hinata and Kiba have to come close! Air Palm with out Kyubi boost is useless,and kiba doesnt even have a range jutsu! it would make more sense if shikamaru catches Kiba letting chouji kill him,while ino easily controlls hinatas body to pressure Shino! Shino wont use his new bug technique on Hinatas body! and if he does,hinata is dead,and ino cancels the jutsu! Ino ,in Hinatas body and 2 kuneis could probaply even kill shino in close combat!


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## Meibitch (Jun 10, 2013)

There are many ways to imagine a battle giving them advantage to our team of preference, but in this case there must be objective.

*Team 8 features *

the principal is crawling, and in the background the offensive,
Hinata = taijutsu close range attack + visualization
Media ninjutsu Kiba = long range attack + Court / Force
Shino =  long distance attack + chakra ninjtsu suction

*Team 10 features*

The main Suport, and paralyzation.

Shikamaru: attack short/medium + Estrategy + paralysis

Chouji: short / medium and long distance + strength + size

Ino: Long distance + speed + sensory +  medical and telephaty Ninjutsu


both are great, and as I said before each of us can plan a strategy to win the one we want or power or tappet block your opponent.

and in a real battle does not win the ninja ninja stronger wins the ninja with the best strategy and the best combination of skills.

attacks 8 are good offensive team and can have a good strategy, but do not exceed Shikamaru strategic level, simply because  Shino  does not have the same strategic capacity tah Shikamaru

*strategy*

No matter what you plan shino with insects, or any combination to do with Kiba or Hinata. Shikamaru knows the skills of each and can predict every move, and if a move is surprising, Shikamaru plans a new strategy quickly seeing their weaknesses or openings in their attack.

Shino also can study 10 team skills and plan strategies but can not formulate the same speed as shikamaru, according changes the situation of the battle

Shino vs Shikamaru = Shikamaru wins, , Kishimoto said Shikamaru is the best Strategy

*combination of attacks and coupling of team*

throughout the manga do not remember seeing the team 8 team fight, all fight individually, and of course, insurance will have combo attacks, but never at the same level Ino-shika-cho, they have many combinations for different circumstances, and not just is the formula that they are complementary in skills, they are well known, no need to talk much to know what position to take, Ino and Chouji are not strategists, but know exactly how you think Shikamaru and know what position to take to attack, capture or defend . this level of coupling can not match the team 8
F
*Force*

Kiba vs Choji = chouji wins.

both are strong but chouji had the size and strength to back several meters to gedo mazo, which is large, heavy and strong, cerberus doubt he has that strength.

*Velocity*

Ino vs Hinata = Ino wins

*why?*

Others already explained that well, however before Hinata or Shino could approach her. Ino can use your Shintenshin to catch one of these two. hinata run very fast though, Ino can catch it, because her technique is now perfect, her Shintenshin does not have the weaknesses of  the Chuunin exams. now have curve moves  is cloned and is very fast.

In any case though Hinata move randomly, Ino can follow the instincts of a sniper, calculate the movement and speed of the target, and shoot at the right time, or in another case, two shots once towards the same goal in two possible directions to choose the victim.

Otherwise, Ino can attack to Hinata with a fake Shintenshin, but his real goal may be shino, like when Sakura as cheating with her hair (she's blonde but also intelligent) and them ino use the shino's bugs to divert his insects against hinata, and the speed of this is not debatable, she did with a bijudama in two second and a long distance! Hinata only help her holding her body. 

If Hinata was able to be so quick to dodge to Kagemane or Shintenshin to approach Ino.

Ino not stand still waiting for a blow or air palm or some pesky insect approach, it is medical ninja - sensor has the ability to dodge every attack or survive

the sensors type do not need to activate their tracking jutsu to perceive ninjas, the simple trading range of chakra is perceived, when Ino it used  the formation E, is to increase the sensory ability (much like kagura shingan Karin) and relay that ability to shikamaru, forgetting his real field of vision. Throw in that with training medical ninja to dodge, touch her will not be easy either for hinata and shino.

if Hinata approaches and attempts to use his 64 palms, Ino can back keeping his distance (Tenten style) and counter with explosive kunais (basic attack against taijutsu style ninjas) Hinata could use celestial rotation or their own absolute defense to repel kunais, or just jump and dodge, hinata take any decision that is the perfect opportunity to use Shintenshin against it, either when hinata stop turning, or moving your palms aleataorio or backward at a distance it obvious, Ino easily control her. simply because their Shintenshin is fast, and curved. no matter if the victim is moved

whatever the technique and strategy, the team 10 wins because they are the best combination according demonstrated in the manga by kishi. the only ones who are the team can overcome is the team 7 with the power up and obvious they are the protagonist.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 10, 2013)

the team of individuals win where teamwork will be cut off.

Shino would put overwhelming pressure on shika & Ino, simultaneously & by himself. Kiba is the strongest here w/ B-mode restricted.

Team Kurenai wins w/ mid difficulty


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## Ailuro (Jun 10, 2013)

Naiad said:


> Shintenshin is undodgeable for team 8 in a closer distance like <200 metres with straight moving,and Hinata and Kiba have to come close! Air Palm with out Kyubi boost is useless


There's two scenarios, one with knowledge and one without.
Scenario 1: Ino will start with Shintenshin. She does this by holding her hands in front of her in a sort of "picture frame". If Hinata is smart and cautious enough she'll return the gesture with Air Palm.
Scenario 2: Hinata will know what Ino plans to do. Ino still has pause to get her target into shot. Question is who can get the first move? Hinata only has to raise her hand, palm forward and shoot.



> and kiba doesnt even have a range jutsu! it would make more sense if shikamaru catches Kiba letting chouji kill him,while ino easily controlls hinatas body to pressure Shino! Shino wont use his new bug technique on Hinatas body! and if he does,hinata is dead,and ino cancels the jutsu! Ino ,in Hinatas body and 2 kuneis could probaply even kill shino in close combat!


Kiba closes distance with Gatsūga. He doesn't need a range jutsu. Ino won't lock on, Shikamaru can't catch him. They'll be on their toes with a team attack from Kiba and Akamaru. Hinata doesn't have to pause even a brief moment to shoot out an Air Palm. Ino catching Hinata won't be easy.



Meibitch said:


> No matter what you plan shino with insects, or any combination to do with Kiba or Hinata. Shikamaru knows the skills of each and can predict every move, and if a move is surprising, Shikamaru plans a new strategy quickly seeing their weaknesses or openings in their attack.


Shikamaru won't know Shino's Insect Clone and Insect Sphere as he's never seen them. The only thing Shikamaru knows is that Shino's insects eat chakra and attack in numbers. Likewise Shino will know the basics of Shikamaru's way of fighting, but won't know of Shadow Gathering, Shadow Sewing and Neck-Binding.



> Shino also can study 10 team skills and plan strategies but can not formulate the same speed as shikamaru, according changes the situation of the battle


While not processing an IQ of 200, Shino's own skills in strategy were shown to be just as good. Versus Zaku he was able to not only quickly deal with the "arm canons" but plan a way to do so before the match even began. What's remarkable is that he did this without ever seeing Zaku's Airwaves.
Against Kankuro he quickly figured the Puppeteer's weakness to close range. Again he was able to perform an effective strategy to immobilise Karasu and Kankuro himself. Another remarkable thing is that he didn't assume that dealing with the Puppet would render the user unable to attack, because he was working on dealing with the Puppeteer. Because that's who Shino is: a very cautious guy, he takes no chances.

Manga outright tells us Shikamaru has an IQ of 200, but shows us that Shino is just as good. So yes, manga evidence proves Shino can formulate a strategy the same speed as Shikamaru. I know it's probably not meant to, but that's what it shows.



> Kiba vs Choji = chouji wins.
> 
> both are strong but chouji had the size and strength to back several meters to gedo mazo, which is large, heavy and strong, cerberus doubt he has that strength.



Kiba most likely won't start with Santōrō. Being IC he'll go for Gatsūga.
Did Choji push back the Gedo Mazo in Butterfly Mode? I know he was in no match of it while in Multi-Size. If so, Butterfly Mode is restricted.
Choji has the strength, Kiba has the speed. Choji can't hit what he can't catch. Kiba's Gatsūga went through a thick tree branch and if I recall a giant rock(?). No doubt it'll go through flesh and bone.



> Others already explained that well, however before Hinata or Shino could approach her. Ino can use your Shintenshin to catch one of these two. hinata run very fast though, Ino can catch it, because her technique is now perfect, her Shintenshin does not have the weaknesses of  the Chuunin exams. now have curve moves  is cloned and is very fast.


Shino doesn't need to approach her and will most likely attack with insects, providing a distraction, allowing him to plan a counter. As fast as her Shintension is she'll be teamed against Shino and his insects. In short, she'll be kept too busy.



> In any case though Hinata move randomly, Ino can follow the instincts of a sniper, calculate the movement and speed of the target, and shoot at the right time, or in another case, two shots once towards the same goal in two possible directions to choose the victim.


Except that Hinata's own Air Palm doesn't require calculation. She just aims and fires. She won't use a close range jutsu if she has the option of a distance attack.



> Otherwise, Ino can attack to Hinata with a fake Shintenshin, but his real goal may be shino, like when Sakura as cheating with her hair (she's blonde but also intelligent) and them ino use the shino's bugs to divert his insects against hinata, and the speed of this is not debatable, she did with a bijudama in two second and a long distance! Hinata only help her holding her body.


There's a fake Shintenshin?
Shino isn't falling for Hair Trap. He's far too intelligent and cautious for that. To add, the speed in which Shino releases his insects and orders them is almost instant. Ino will have hellish trouble trying to mind-claim Shino. He'll be constantly attacking from distance, using a cluster of insects to provide a distraction, while the real part of his strategy is taking place.
(And Shino won't think of Ino as a dumb blonde. He'll fight her as he would any other opponent.)



> If Hinata was able to be so quick to dodge to Kagemane or Shintenshin to approach Ino.
> Ino not stand still waiting for a blow or air palm or some pesky insect approach, it is medical ninja - sensor has the ability to dodge every attack or survive


Shino's Insect Jamming will render Ino's sensors ineffective. Those pesky insects won't be approaching from one particular side, but will be taking over the whole area. Medical ninja and sensor combo isn't going to help her if Shino decides to go after her. It's Shino that will have the easier time.



> if Hinata approaches and attempts to use his 64 palms, Ino can back keeping his distance (Tenten style) and counter with explosive kunais (basic attack against taijutsu style ninjas) Hinata could use celestial rotation or their own absolute defense to repel kunais, or just jump and dodge, hinata take any decision that is the perfect opportunity to use Shintenshin against it, either when hinata stop turning, or moving your palms aleataorio or backward at a distance it obvious, Ino easily control her. simply because their Shintenshin is fast, and curved. no matter if the victim is moved


Ino has never used kunai explosives and she is not a Taijustu style user. Even Hinata doesn't use them. I'm not sure what celestial rotation is. If Hinata choose to attack with 64 Palms, simply jumping back won't help Ino. Hinata will be at the constant attack.



> whatever the technique and strategy, the team 10 wins because they are the best combination according demonstrated in the manga by kishi. the only ones who are the team can overcome is the team 7 with the power up and obvious they are the protagonist.


Shino gives Team 8 a huge advantage. With his insects taking control of large area, Team 10 will have major issues trying to avoid them while also being at the constant defence of Kiba and Hinata.


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## BrokenBonds (Jun 11, 2013)

I give this to Team Kurenai. Without Butterfy mode I don't see Choji taking on Kiba. Kiba is much too fast to get hit by Choji's somewhat sluggish attacks. Honestly if Choji turned giant all he'd be doing is making himself a bigger target for Kiba's Three-Headed Wolf. 

Shino is by far the greatest threat for Team Asuma though. He's definitely one of the strongest rookie and he'll have great field coverage with his bugs. He could easily dispatch Shikamaru if he covers him with bugs similar to what he did with Tobi. I don't really know how the location will affect the match (I'm not really sure what's within the barrier nor the distance). If the distance is far enough / if there's some trees, I suppose Shikamaru could hide, maybe even set up a clone. Shikamaru's stagnent battle style will just make it easier for Shino's bugs... Shino is also quite stagnant as well, making it easier to catch him in Shikamaru's shadows. If Shikamaru does so, however, he'll be completely vulnerable to Hinata and Choji would be much too busy dealing with Kiba to secure the kill. It may even be possible for Shino to stop the technique by making his bugs eat the shadow thread (which is composed of chakra). I have no doubt Shino's bugs will attack their opponents despite Shino being manipulated. Similarly you have to keep in mind that the bugs will spread and slowly sap all of Shino's opponents chakra. Similarly if Shino is fortunate enough to touch his opponents his parasites will instantly vanquish his enemy. I'd honestly put Hinata above Ino too, in terms of combat prowess. She's essentially blossomed into a mini Neji.

Without knowledge will give Team Kurenai the advantage. The opposing team will be unaware what Shino's bugs are capable of and won't expect Hinata's Gentle Fist. The only shot Team Asuma has is if Ino mind swaps with Hinata and quickly dispatches Shino, who would be unaware that it was infact Ino.

With knowledge Team Asua will obviously get the advantage. They will know to be cautious of Shino's bugs and will avoid confronting Hinata in close quarters combat. Even if they manage to mind swap Shino (Kiba's too fast to be caught by it and Hinata is not really much of a factor, all things considered), the bugs may attack despite the absence of their master. Furthermore Shikamaru will be left with the burden of Ino's body.


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## Baroxio (Jun 11, 2013)

Is there any reason why Chouji just can't Bellyflop and kill them?

Sure Shino's new bugs can kill him, but at that point the battle's over, right?

Hell, with Chouji's bellyflop casting a huge shadow, Shikamaru should easily be able to hold them in plae long enough to make sure the belly flop hits, with Ino's sensing making sure he's caught them all.

What the hell would Team 8 do in such a scenario?


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## PDQ (Jun 11, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Is there any reason why Chouji just can't Bellyflop and kill them?
> 
> Sure Shino's new bugs can kill him, but at that point the battle's over, right?
> 
> ...


Gagatenga would bisect him.  Shino's bugs swarm Shikamaru even if Shino can't move, breaking the Kage Mane.  The bugs also throw off sensors.


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## Baroxio (Jun 11, 2013)

Bugs aren't going to get to Shika before Chouji squashes them and Shino in one fell swoop.

And Gatenga can't be used if they are under Shikamaru's control, which if they are under Chouji's large-ass shadow, is a given.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 11, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Bugs aren't going to get to Shika before Chouji squashes them and Shino in one fell swoop.
> 
> And Gatenga can't be used if they are under Shikamaru's control, which if they are under Chouji's large-ass shadow, is a given.


Thats assuming that Chouji can put himself above team 8 in mid-air to then belly flop on them. Its a rather large assumption, as they're not just going to stand there and do nothing prior to this happening and Shikamaru is going to have his own problems to be worrying about in Shino's bugs. A lot of the arguments I see in favor of team 10 either make team 8 just stand around like idiots or assume that with limited options Shikamaru can easily counter Shino's sole offense just because hes Shikamaru and he'll "think of something".


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## Baroxio (Jun 11, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Thats assuming that Chouji can put himself above team 8 in mid-air to then belly flop on them. Its a rather large assumption, as they're not just going to stand there and do nothing prior to this happening and Shikamaru is going to have his own problems to be worrying about in Shino's bugs. A lot of the arguments I see in favor of team 10 either make team 8 just stand around like idiots or assume that with limited options Shikamaru can easily counter Shino's sole offense just because hes Shikamaru and he'll "think of something".


All Chouji has to do is jump, and his super expansion jutsu will take care of the rest. We've seen it work fairly instantly when he faced Jirobo, and he's much better at it now.

Forming a Kage Bunshin, doing the fusion and beginning the rotation for Gatenga all take much longer than Chouji's belly flop IMO. 

And you overestimate Shino's bugs. Shikamaru isn't going to allow himself to be completely hard countered by a finite supply of bugs which can be easily squished by Chouji in a split second, or destroyed by an explosive tag (of which Shikamaru has many). 

Shino might be smart, but he's fairly one dimensional, and unlike Shikamaru he lacks a great deal of basic ninja equipment to circumvent that predictability in a battle of brains. For Shikamaru, a well placed Light bomb could win the match. Shino has no such equivalent.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 11, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> All Chouji has to do is jump, and his super expansion jutsu will take care of the rest. We've seen it work fairly instantly when he faced Jirobo, and he's much better at it now.


Jirobo threw Chouji into the air against them in their fight. Here Chouji would need to get close enough to do this without running into any sort of interference from Shino/Kiba, which isn't really going to happen.

This is also not really how we see him fight IC. 



> Forming a Kage Bunshin, doing the fusion and beginning the rotation for Gatenga all take much longer than Chouji's belly flop IMO.


Why would he need to form a KB? He needs that for Santourou and Oiga Gatenga but not Soutourou and Garoga. Thats also assuming he isn't already in that form.



> And you overestimate Shino's bugs. Shikamaru isn't going to allow himself to be completely hard countered by a finite supply of bugs which can be easily squished by Chouji in a split second, or destroyed by an explosive tag (of which Shikamaru has many).


So I'm overestimating Shino's bugs because the other team has no good counter but you're not overrating Shikamaru or Chouji by thinking they'll so easily destroy Shino's sole offense that put up the best showing against Tobi? I don't overrate the bugs, the manga presents them as being a very strong offense and I base my analysis off of that. They're too fast to be swatted by Chouji nor are they going to be wiped out by simple explosive tags that any ninja worth their salt isn't going to have their main offense countered by. 

Kikaichu have quite a number of effective counters, none of which team 10 possesses, which is why team 10 doesn't match up well against team 8.



> Shino might be smart, but he's fairly one dimensional, and unlike Shikamaru he lacks a great deal of basic ninja equipment to circumvent that predictability in a battle of brains. For Shikamaru, a well placed Light bomb could win the match. Shino has no such equivalent.


All the Rookies are fairly one-dimensional. Shino happens to be strong enough with his sole offense for it to not matter. A light bomb isn't going to help him much when hes swarmed by bugs before he can even make it close enough to try and use it.


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## Naiad (Jun 11, 2013)

Ailuro said:


> There's two scenarios, one with knowledge and one without.
> Scenario 1: Ino will start with Shintenshin. She does this by holding her hands in front of her in a sort of "picture frame". If Hinata is smart and cautious enough she'll return the gesture with Air Palm.
> Scenario 2: Hinata will know what Ino plans to do. Ino still has pause to get her target into shot. Question is who can get the first move? Hinata only has to raise her hand, palm forward and shoot.



Ino is pretty fast with her handseals! seeing that she was able to use them during asuma was about to strike chouji! anyway shintenshin is only one handseal! she doesnt have to do much more ! 
you do forget also 2 points; unlike shintenshin, air palm is a short-midrange jutsu! midrange jutsus are about 15 metres,and the barrier is much larger than 15 meters! the second point is that the speed of the air wall palm is in no case compareable to the instantspeed of shintenshin! 
but because ino can possess hinata easily from few hundred metres away,hinata cant do much here anyway.. and shino wont do much either once ino fights him through hinatas body!


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## Meibitch (Jun 12, 2013)

Ailuro said:


> While not processing an IQ of 200, Shino's own skills in strategy were shown to be just as good. Versus Zaku he was able to not only quickly deal with the "arm canons" but plan a way to do so before the match even began. What's remarkable is that he did this without ever seeing Zaku's Airwaves.
> 
> Against Kankuro he quickly figured the Puppeteer's
> 
> Manga outright tells us Shikamaru has an IQ of 200, but shows us that Shino is just as good. So yes, manga evidence proves Shino can formulate a strategy the same speed as Shikamaru. I know it's probably not meant to, but that's what it shows.



I like Shino, and he is smart, but he's just "good strategist", Shikamaru is the "Best", kishi has said from the first databook, and has shown throughout the story, if you place it to Shino and shikamaru on a scale to see who has proven to be the best strategist, Shikamaru wins by far
has defeated the great ninjas dangerous,  Shino only Kankuro.

In any case Shino not be easy to Shikamaru, but Shika surpasses him in strategy that gives victory.




Ailuro said:


> Kiba most likely won't start with Santōrō. Being IC he'll go for Gatsūga.
> Did Choji push back the Gedo Mazo in Butterfly Mode? I know he was in no match of it while in Multi-Size. If so, Butterfly Mode is restricted.
> Choji has the strength, Kiba has the speed. Choji can't hit what he can't catch. Kiba's Gatsūga went through a thick tree branch and if I recall a giant rock(?). No doubt it'll go through flesh and bone.




Chouji also fast when using Nikudan Sensha and can drill rocks when used Nikudan Hari Sensha



Ailuro said:


> Shino doesn't need to approach her and will most likely attack with insects, providing a distraction, allowing him to plan a counter. As fast as her Shintension is she'll be teamed against Shino and his insects. In short, she'll be kept too busy.




Like I said before if Ino sees an insect approaches, she tried to avoid them, as he trained as a doctor to evade and survive, in which case it is complicated, Ino can use an explosive kunai to avoid it, and if the insects manage to catch her, she can use a jutsu as basic as replacement technique. Another automatically Shikamaru will know that is a distraction and at the same time will tell Ino that position taken to avoid or attack.




Ailuro said:


> Except that Hinata's own Air Palm doesn't require calculation. She just aims and fires. She won't use a close range jutsu if she has the option of a distance attack


.

The palm is short-range air and straight shooting, the Ino Shintenshin can move in a curved line and long distance, and speed of ino is much more than the palm, it said naruto ino technique is almost as fast as he Kyubi mode.



Ailuro said:


> There's a fake Shintenshin?
> Shino isn't falling for Hair Trap. He's far too intelligent and cautious for that. To add, the speed in which Shino releases his insects and orders them is almost instant. Ino will have hellish trouble trying to mind-claim Shino. He'll be constantly attacking from distance, using a cluster of insects to provide a distraction, while the real part of his strategy is taking place.
> (And Shino won't think of Ino as a dumb blonde. He'll fight her as he would any other opponent.)



I did not say Ino cut her hair, she would not use the same strategy of trap, when I speak of a false Shintenshin. is Hinata and Shino fool pointing their hands in addressing Hinata, Shino but actually viewing outside the framework of his hands, shooting curve to Shino. well as with zetsus, Ino pointed his hands toward the front her but was shot Shintenshin curved sides, outside the view frame of hand, insects are fast, but not to the level of a shintenshin




Ailuro said:


> Shino's Insect Jamming will render Ino's sensors ineffective. Those pesky insects won't be approaching from one particular side, but will be taking over the whole area. Medical ninja and sensor combo isn't going to help her if Shino decides to go after her. It's Shino that will have the easier time.



I said before, Ino not stay still, and in any case Shikamaru would not let anyone touch or go near the body of Ino, he watch her back as well as she takes care of him, is the basis of ino shika cho.Shikamaru could block the movement of insects  with his shadow,because the mass of insects in the air cause a large shadow, perfect for Shikamaru




Ailuro said:


> Ino has never used kunai explosives and she is not a Taijustu style user. Even Hinata doesn't use them. I'm not sure what celestial rotation is. If Hinata choose to attack with 64 Palms, simply jumping back won't help Ino. Hinata will be at the constant attack.



I did not say that Uno use a taijutsu attack, that would be very risky, I said that if Hinata is  approached,  Ino can use dodge and keep distance with Hinata each approach, as does Tenten against Temari, or Sakura against Temari , not take a genius to do that. Ino never use explosives because it has not needed to use, however all ninja, carry in their bags,kunai, shuriken, smoke bombs and explosives, in a situAsuma, a expert in taijutsu, she did using a heavy body while talking to Chouji, demonstrating their level of taijutsu and concentration while.


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## Kurama (Jun 13, 2013)

Shikamaru needs prep time and most especially the proper tools to deal with Shino's bugs. There's none available. He gets swarmed.

Shino's insects are like a smaller scale of Gaara with his sand. Ino would have insects smothering her before she's even aware of it. There's no dodging them for long. And she's not dodging Hakke Kusho, its invisible force.

Hinata's byakugan would tell if she's using Shintenshin or not.

Chouji being bigger will only make him a bigger target for Hinata's lions.


Here's exactly what will happen. Shino will tag Ino with a tracking bug, release his jamming insects allowing Hinata to sneak up on her and take her out. Shikamaru is too distracted by the insect swarm to use Kagemane to stop Hinata's attack. Kiba keeps Chouji busy until Shikamaru is drained/tenketsu's are closed. Then Chouji has to deal with the full swarm draining his chakra, Kiba's Cerberus keeping his hands busy as Hinata plugs his tenketsu with Juho Soshiken.


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## Naiad (Jun 13, 2013)

you didnt noticed the part that hinatas air palm is only midrange and that Ino can easily take over her from the starting distance of few hundred metres and pressure Shino long enough to give her comrades the time to smash him to pieces?
Shino wont to much! his only way to damage Ino while attacking Hinata would be his new technique but he would need to sacrifice Hinata for that and ino could still release Shintenshin while the bugs are growing in hinatas body! 
i dont see him sending his bugs out while he has to defend him self from Hinata (Ino)

Chouji could kill the immense distracted Shino with one punch! Kiba can attack Shikamaru but gets caught in his shadows,because he is too linear!  Hinata(Ino) and Chouji will join him right after they killed Shino! and kiba alone has absolute no chance against the 3 of team 10!


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## Meibitch (Jun 13, 2013)

As I said before, each of us can plan a good strategy to win our favorite team, but in reality our words have no weight. at the end the one with the last word is kishimoto, with the acting of each character in the whole story.

The 10 team overcame two legendary ninja with the power of kyubi and armed with weapons of rikoudo sennin, a ninja immortal, another with 5 lives and drove the 5 elements, and his own master against his emotions.

Some insects, a super dog and hyuga skills is not more difficult than the skills and the power of the enemy who had the team 10.

The team 10 wins not because they have super powers individually, the reason is because the combination Ino-shika-cho is legendary, a perfect combination that shows sync,  strategy and especially complement, concepts that have proven the team 10 since the start of the series.

The team 8 with all their special clan abilities they never show a important victory, like the team 10 show.


Put on a balance, the winner by far is the team 10, his skills are not a weakness to the skills of team 8,

on the contrary, they are the perfect challenge to create a strategy and perfect combination to a new opponent.

Ino-Shika-Cho, just are a legend


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