# Yonkou vs Admirals



## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

All Yonkou shown so far fights with all Admirals shown so far.
Yonkou :
*
1) Old WB
2) Shanks 
3) Kiado
4) Current Teach
5) Big Mom
6) Marco
*
vs
Admirals :
*
1) Akainu 
2) Aokiji
3) Kizaru
4) Fujitora
5) Ryokugyu
6) Old Sengoku 
*
Location : Island 10 times bigger than MF
Intel : None
Mindset : IC but to kill. No member have personal issues with team member. 
*Note* : 
1)Marco was captain of WB pirates before BB became Yonkou , so he was a Yonkou technically for some time.
2) Team members knows each other's abilities.
*Scenario 2* :
Both sides knows has full intel and a week to prep . They can't prep on location though. It is for mostly  strategy purpose .


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## Extravlad (Nov 4, 2014)

Based on overall power, Yonko should win but admirals have a much better synergy.
Also it may be hard for WB to use his power at full strength without injuring his allies

If the fight split up then Yonko wins, I guess, but Admirals are better as a team.


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## barreltheif (Nov 4, 2014)

Could go either way, but I'm leaning towards the yonkou. Admirals have better teamwork but are weaker on average.
Also, Marco was never a yonkou. The crew ceased to be a yonkou crew after WB died. The gorosei even said "the remaining three yonkou or Marco", clearly counting Marco as a non-yonkou.


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Could go either way, but I'm leaning towards the yonkou. Admirals have better teamwork but are weaker on average.
> Also, Marco was never a yonkou. The crew ceased to be a yonkou crew after WB died. The gorosei even said "the remaining three yonkou or Marco", clearly counting Marco as a non-yonkou.



There is no such thing as  3 Yonkou. Word itself means 4 people.
As I said it is just a technicality.
Don't sweat on it.


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## Datassassin (Nov 4, 2014)

If it devolves into more one-on-one conflicts or if it stays as a more cooperative effort, I don't see the Yonkou's side losing. They have a non-impaired/ill/impaled World's Strongest Man + the World's Strongest Creature. WB is beating whoever is unfortunate enough to engage him solo, and Kaido probably is as well. A giant lava fist/ice pheasant/beam-spam can just be absorbed by BB or blocked by Marco (serving as a mobile shield is pretty much Marco's only value here) while someone else returns fire. At first glance it seems like the Admiral's side has a significantly better ranged offensive, but meteors/lava/beams can be matched by flying slashes/quakes.


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## Orca (Nov 4, 2014)

Yonkos are stronger on Average. I only see Marco losing his fight. Rest of team Yonko would either win or completely stalemate an admiral.


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## Freechoice (Nov 4, 2014)

I have no idea


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## Canute87 (Nov 4, 2014)

Why the hell is Marco up there?


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## Dunno (Nov 4, 2014)

Yonkou high diffs Admirals on average. Marco is the only one who loses, and even he can probably put up a high diff fight against Sengoku.


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## Luke (Nov 4, 2014)

Lol Marco 

Anyway: 

Whitebeard high diffs Akainu. 

Shanks high diffs Aokiji. 

Kaido high diffs Kizaru. 

Fujitora extreme diffs Current Teach. 

Could go either way. 

Sengoku high diffs Marco. 

Overall, I believe the Yonko are a tad stronger.


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## Rob (Nov 4, 2014)

The gap from WB to the second strongest in all 12 of those characters should be big enough for Team-Yonko to win. 

Though, the C3 do fight well together, as shown when they stopped WB from destroying all of MF in a hit


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## Coruscation (Nov 4, 2014)

I didn't realize Green Bull had been shown. Or even Kaidou, Big Mom and post-skip Teach to the extent that we can pinpoint their strength for that matter.

Though I'm quite certain the Yonkou are generally stronger. Akainu is the only one I'd say is a likely exception to the norm. But the Yonkou are the top pirates in an era dominated by piracy, they fought and strifed their way to the absolute top in the heat of the New World including competing directly against Whitebeard. And a single Yonkou who _wasn't_ the World's Strongest Man arriving in Marineford was able to take a very strong stand against the three Admirals, Garp & Sengoku. There's no way you can play that off as Shanks being essentially just another Admiral. And I don't believe this would have been any different with Kaidou and Big Mom as they all share the same hype and standing and it was the fact that it was one of the 4 Emperors that had arrived that made such a big impact, not that it was specifically Shanks.

Akainu against Kaidou, Big Mom or Teach may be able to go either way though I still don't think he beats Shanks. The rest are victories for the Yonkou most likely and the lone match-up of Marco vs. an Admiral that may go the other way definitely won't be enough to change the outcome.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Nov 4, 2014)

lol Marco. You should have put in prime Shiki ahead of him or something - he's sticks out like a sore thumb in this list with his weakness in comparison to all the others. 

Even with Marco fucking up their chances of a victory, Team Yonkou do have old WB who is > than anyone else on here, so that should go some way to mitigating that liability. 

Most of the rest of the battles could go either way and depending on who ends up fighting who, assuming it descends into individual battles. If Shanks and Sakazuki don't end up fighting each other or the latter with Old WB, I can see them winning their battles. 

Also I'm assuming this is MF Aokiji who was nearly all but equal to Akainu as well, and not the current version who may have lost something with his broken leg?

Overall it could go either way as it is though if you replace Marco with Prime Shiki I'd give the edge to the Yonkou. 

*Scenario 2:
*

I'd give this to the Admirals mainly because of what Extravlad said. The Admirals will have more synergy and teamwork, and hence should actually come with a strategy to defeat their opponents. They'll be more prepared to trust and work with one another to achieve their objective.


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> I didn't realize Green Bull had been shown. Or even Kaidou, Big Mom and post-skip Teach to the extent that we can pinpoint their strength for that matter.
> 
> Though I'm quite certain the Yonkou are generally stronger. Akainu is the only one I'd say is a likely exception to the norm. But the Yonkou are the top pirates in an era dominated by piracy, they fought and strifed their way to the absolute top in the heat of the New World including competing directly against Whitebeard. And a single Yonkou who _wasn't_ the World's Strongest Man arriving in Marineford was able to take a very strong stand against the three Admirals, Garp & Sengoku. *There's no way you can play that off as Shanks being essentially just another Admiral. *And I don't believe this would have been any different with Kaidou and Big Mom as they all share the same hype and standing and it was the fact that it was one of the 4 Emperors that had arrived that made such a big impact, not that it was specifically Shanks.
> 
> Akainu against Kaidou, Big Mom or Teach may be able to go either way though I still don't think he beats Shanks. The rest are victories for the Yonkou most likely and the lone match-up of Marco vs. an Admiral that may go the other way definitely won't be enough to change the outcome.


Can you elaborate the bolded ?
Great Post by the way.


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## Valdie (Nov 4, 2014)

Whitebeard and Marco will likely group up together, while Akainu and Kizaru team up to fight them. They stalemate each other for now.

Shanks engages against Aokiji, and decapitates him after a high difficulty battle.

Kaido sneaks up on Fujitora and bashes his skull in after another high difficulty fight.

Teach absorb Green Bull's DF and breaks him into a dozen pieces after a high difficulty battle.

Big Mom consumes Sengoku after a mid diff fight.

Big Mom would probably finish her fight the fastest, then release an attack that tilts the duo fight in Whitebeard's favour, after which she joins in, and the trio beats the Admiral duo after a high difficlty fight.


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> lol Marco. You should have put in prime Shiki ahead of him or something - he's sticks out like a sore thumb in this list with his weakness in comparison to all the others.
> 
> Even with Marco fucking up their chances of a victory, Team Yonkou do have old WB who is > than anyone else on here, so that should go some way to mitigating that liability.
> 
> ...



Not everybody is as biassed as you AK.
All jokes aside Marco can push any admiral not named Akainu to very high to extreme diff.
Pushing an admiral to even high diff is more than enough to place someone in their range. Marco may not be strong enough to beat admiral (which is debatable), he is certainly strong enough to give them hard fight.
With Prime Shiki we will have confirmed winners of 4 matches 
(WB would beat Akainu  ,
Shanks would beat Aokiji ,
Prime Shiki would beat Kizaru ,
Kiado would beat whoever he is fighting ). 
It would be too one sided match then .
You are right about team work part though. Admirals certainly excels in it.
But how would they take out WB ?
Do you have any ideas?


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## Vengeance (Nov 4, 2014)

Please don't describe Marco as a technical Yonkou, he never was one with good reason ^^.
Imo Team Yonkou takes both scenarios more likely as I consider them to be generally stronger than their opponents. Having Marco won't turn the tables imo.


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

Valdie said:


> Whitebeard and Marco will likely group up together, while Akainu and Kizaru team up to fight them. They stalemate each other for now.
> 
> Shanks engages against Aokiji, and decapitates him after a high difficulty battle.
> 
> ...



No one is beating admiral with mid diff. 
That position holds only strongest guys.
Even Roger won't be probably able to mid diff admiral. 
If there is uncertainty about Roger , how would Big Mom would do something like that ?


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## Magentabeard (Nov 4, 2014)

Amol said:


> No one is beating admiral with mid diff.
> That position holds only strongest guys.
> Even Roger won't be probably able to mid diff admiral.
> If there is uncertainty about Roger , how would Big Mom would do something like that ?



I see unrestricted old WB beating akainu (the strongest admiral) with mid mid or high mid diff, and Prime WB beating him with low mid diff.


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

Vengeance said:


> Please don't describe Marco as a technical Yonkou, he never was one with good reason ^^.
> Imo Team Yonkou takes both scenarios more likely as I consider them to be generally stronger than their opponents. Having Marco won't turn the tables imo.



Marco was just filler for Yonkou position but he still was for however small time . 
Say how would Marco vs Old Sengoku would go ? diff ?


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## Admiral Kizaru (Nov 4, 2014)

Amol said:


> Not everybody is as biassed as you AK.



If I was going to biased I would have said a comfortable Admiral win which I didn't. I selected the option that 35% of those who voted on the poll went for - it going either way. 

And I'm also hardly the only person on here who commented on Marco being out of place here. He's out of his depth compared to everyone else on the list - that's the god damn fact - not me or anyone else on here being biased. 

Everyone, even the likes of Corus, have their favourite characters on here who they may spend more time defending and arguing for on here. I just happen to wear mind on my sleeve a lot more than others and that gets me accused of bias by people like yourself. At any rate, I do hope you remain consistent and call out other people who you suspect of being biased instead of just focusing on an easy target like me. 



Amol said:


> All jokes aside Marco can push any admiral not named Akainu to very high to extreme diff.



If that's your justification for including Marco then there are plenty of objective people who would dispute that on here. When he possess very little attacking threat and relies almost exclusively on your DF to bail himself out of trouble, it's hard to see how exactly he could give an Admiral an extreme difficulty fight. None of them would at any risk of receiving any significant injuries from him which is integral to any match being classified as very high/extreme difficulty.


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## Vengeance (Nov 4, 2014)

Amol said:


> Marco was just filler for Yonkou position but he still was for however small time .
> Say how would Marco vs Old Sengoku would go ? diff ?



He never was considered a Yonkou, him and the other remnants of the Whitebeard Pirates were "just" a powerful crew above all other NW crews (except the Yonkou of course).
I am not sure what difficulty Sengoku would need for Marco, but I'm pretty sure that Marco has nothing except his regeneration that would be a real trouble for Sengoku in Buddha form. So it would be just a question of time.


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## Coruscation (Nov 4, 2014)

Amol said:
			
		

> Can you elaborate the bolded ?



The Marines had as many as 5 Admirals or Admiral-class fighters present. There's also Mihawk who would have made it 6, but he did leave prior to Shanks' announcement. Then a single man and his crew showed up and made the entire war come to a grinding halt by saying "Stop, or you'll have to deal with us". It should be obvious to anyone that this scenario makes very little sense if that man was only another Admiral-class fighter and the next best he had with him significantly below that, let alone the rest of his troupe. The threat would've been completely empty and essentially one big bluff. And that's clearly not how anyone sane would interpret the scene. Akainu can be viewed as the exception, as he was injured and clearly not at full strength at the time, but the rest stands; there's no way that all Shanks brought to the table was one fighter equivalent to one of the Marines' 5 and a bunch of significantly/far weaker ones.



			
				Admiral Kizaru said:
			
		

> When he possess very little attacking threat and relies almost exclusively on your DF to bail himself out of trouble, it's hard to see how exactly he could give an Admiral an extreme difficulty fight. None of them would at any risk of receiving any significant injuries from him which is integral to any match being classified as very high/extreme difficulty.



That argument may be viable to a certain extent for Kizaru/Aokiji/Akainu.

But there's no way you can make it for Fujitora, let alone the unintroduced Green Bull, who have no durability feats as of now let alone ones that prove they can shrug off Marco's kicks, and certainly not his razor sharp talons.

So sure, make it for the original trio... but that's as far as it can go.


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> If I was going to biased I would have said a comfortable Admiral win which I didn't. I selected the option that 35% of those who voted on the poll went for - it going either way.
> 
> And I'm also hardly the only person on here who commented on Marco being out of place here. He's out of his depth compared to everyone else on the list - that's the god damn fact - not me or anyone else on here being biased.
> 
> ...



You went all defensive.
I wasn't serious much . You do have a history for favouring marines and I was merely kidding with it .
I was only talking about Marco though. I never commented on overall result. Marco is not my favourite character , never was. I defend any character who is getting downplayed. In this thread itself I defended admirals.
I guarantee you that I will call anyone biassed if I see one. I don't know what you  mean by easy target. You are a veteran member than me. 
It would go off topic to prove how Marco is on admiral level or how he is threat to admirals. Marco's DF is part of him and it is his own strength. Bellamy with Marco's DF will die in seconds . He is a CQC fighter hence he doesn't have flashy AoE moves . His speed is good enough to keep with  Kizaru. Haki is good enough to kick logia Admiral. He can harm admiral same way Jozu gave Aokiji bloody lip ; by physical attacks. It would take time . I am not even claiming he would win . All I am saying he that he is not entire out of league(like Luffy and Sanji). He comes in same category.
Now are we good ? Lets not be hostile to each other .
So do you have any ideas for Scenario 2 ?
About how would they take out WB ?


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## Unclear Justice (Nov 4, 2014)

lolMarco

He shouldn't be listed among the Yonko. He is Whitebeards administrator and that's it.

Well then my guess on their ranking:

WB > Akainu > Shanks > Aokiji > Kaido > Kizaru > Big Mom > Blackbeard > Fujitora > Ryokugyu > Sengoku > Marco

Yonko win on average thanks to WB's superiority. Marco may be a weak link but his best talent is stalling so he doesn't drag his group down here. If Yonko had more feats things would probably look different.


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## Ruse (Nov 4, 2014)

Valdie said:


> Whitebeard and Marco will likely group up together, while Akainu and Kizaru team up to fight them. They stalemate each other for now.
> 
> Shanks engages against Aokiji, and decapitates him after a high difficulty battle.
> 
> ...


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> If I was going to biased I would have said a comfortable Admiral win which I didn't. I selected the option that 35% of those who voted on the poll went for - it going either way.
> 
> And I'm also hardly the only person on here who commented on Marco being out of place here. He's out of his depth compared to everyone else on the list - that's the god damn fact - not me or anyone else on here being biased.
> 
> ...



You went all defensive.
I wasn't serious much . You do have a history for favouring marines and I was merely kidding with it .
I was only talking about Marco though. I never commented on overall result. Marco is not my favourite character , never was. I defend any character who is getting downplayed. In this thread itself I defended admirals.
I guarantee you that I will call anyone biassed if I see one. I don't know what you  mean by easy target. You are a veteran member than me. 
It would go off topic to prove how Marco is on admiral level or how he is threat to admirals. Marco's DF is part of him and it is his own strength. Bellamy with Marco's DF will die in seconds . He is a CQC fighter hence he doesn't have flashy AoE moves . His speed is good enough to keep with  Kizaru. Haki is good enough to kick logia Admiral. He can harm admiral same way Jozu gave Aokiji bloody lip ; by physical attacks. It would take time . I am not even claiming he would win . All I am saying  that he is not entirely out of league(like Luffy and Sanji). He comes in same category.
Now are we good ? Lets not be hostile to each other .
So do you have any ideas for Scenario 2 ?
About how would they take out WB ?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, since we have little to no feats for a good chunk of the candidates, I'll say it can go either way for now.


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> The Marines had as many as 5 Admirals or Admiral-class fighters present. There's also Mihawk who would have made it 6, but he did leave prior to Shanks' announcement. Then a single man and his crew showed up and made the entire war come to a grinding halt by saying "Stop, or you'll have to deal with us". It should be obvious to anyone that this scenario makes very little sense if that man was only another Admiral-class fighter and the next best he had with him significantly below that, let alone the rest of his troupe. The threat would've been completely empty and essentially one big bluff. And that's clearly not how anyone sane would interpret the scene. Akainu can be viewed as the exception, as he was injured and clearly not at full strength at the time, but the rest stands; there's no way that all Shanks brought to the table was one fighter equivalent to one of the Marines' 5 and a bunch of significantly/far weaker ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



True .
If Shanks was at best an admiral class guy and his first mate even below that , marines would have considered it as empty threat. 
By the Corus, do you place C3 above new admirals or equal to them ?


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

Vengeance said:


> He never was considered a Yonkou, him and the other remnants of the Whitebeard Pirates were "just" a powerful crew above all other NW crews (except the Yonkou of course).
> I am not sure what difficulty Sengoku would need for Marco, but I'm pretty sure that Marco has nothing except his regeneration that would be a real trouble for Sengoku in Buddha form. So it would be just a question of time.



Do you imagine Sengoku winning without any kind of injuries ?
Because that would be no diff. 
I am sure CQC fighters can injure you with  physical attacks.


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> lolMarco
> 
> He shouldn't be listed among the Yonko. He is Whitebeards administrator and that's it.
> 
> ...


Out of 10 matches can Aokiji win all against Kiado ?

---------------------------------------------
For the record I do not consider Marco Yonkou level. He is not there and never will be . He is there just for technicality and we needed sixth member.


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## Monster (Nov 4, 2014)

Amol said:


> Out of 10 matches can Aokiji win all against Kiado ?
> 
> ---------------------------------------------
> For the record I do not consider Marco Yonkou level. He is not there and never will be . He is there just for technicality and we needed sixth member.



I do not understand how Marco is technically a Yonkou? Gorosei didn't include him in the Emperors. 

Of course Aokiji cannot win all 10 matches, as the gap between high top tiers is too close. The only person I can say can win 10/10 against anybody is Whitebeard because of his title.


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## Infinite Darkness (Nov 4, 2014)

Old WB, Shanks and Kaido can beat ANY Admiral fighter, maybe except Akainu. 

Now, I can only see Akainu beating those three, now Aokoji and Kizaru would do well against Big Mom and Teach but i don't think they have a chance of beating the stronger members of Yonko.  Regarding Fujitora and the other new admiral, i don't think they can beat a Yonko. 

Old Sengoku would lose against ANY Yonko because he is old, and Marco could defeat the newer admirals but not the original C3.

Overall, Yonko are very likely going to be superior.


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## Unclear Justice (Nov 4, 2014)

Amol said:


> Out of 10 matches can Aokiji win all against Kiado ?



I cannot answer this decisively before knowing Kaido's fighting style. If Aokiji is a bad match up for him I could see Kaido lose 10/10. 

Also two people being close doesn't mean both could win if we repeat the fight with the same setting. I consider 10/10 and 0/10 more likely than everything in between unless I see a factor in the fight that is directly related to luck.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 4, 2014)

Shanks > Old Whitebeard >> Akainu >/= Aokiji > Current Teach > Fujitora/Kizaru/Marco/Old Sengoku/Ryokugyu > Big Mom

Shanks and Old Whitebeard are superior to everyone here by a considerable margin. Even though Big Mom is the weak link in this fight, her weakness is smaller than the difference between strongest emperors and strongest admirals. I'm assuming every character is shown in his/her strongest incarnation, too.

Shanks mid-diffs Akainu.
Old Whitebeard mid-diffs Aokiji.
Kaidou defeats Fujitora with high difficulty. 
Current Teach defeats Kizaru with very high difficulty.
Marco stalemates Ryokugyu.
Big Mom pushes Old Sengoku very far, but she'll get assistance from someone before he defeats her.

That's just individual fights for the most part. Shanks and Old Whitebeard will finish their fights rather quickly, so I can see them helping the others clean up the mess with half the difficulty or less.

Team Yonkou wins. Mid-diff, I'd say


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## trance (Nov 4, 2014)

> Shanks > Old Whitebeard



 x 100


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## Monster (Nov 4, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> *Shanks > Old Whitebeard >> Akainu >/= Aokiji > Current Teach > Fujitora/Kizaru/Marco/Old Sengoku/Ryokugyu > Big Mom*
> 
> *Shanks and Old Whitebeard are superior to everyone here by a considerable margin.** Even though Big Mom is the weak link in this fight, her weakness is smaller than the difference between strongest emperors and strongest admirals. I'm assuming every character is shown in his/her strongest incarnation, too.
> *
> ...



Here I bolded the parts where you're wrong.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 4, 2014)

Monster said:


> Here I bolded the parts where you're wrong.



What's wrong?


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## Ruse (Nov 4, 2014)

Trance said:


> x 100



Nevermind that Marco > Big Mom?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 4, 2014)

Monster said:


> The bolded parts.
> 
> Do you have a problem with reading?



You didn't provide any reasoning.
That's my question.


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## trance (Nov 4, 2014)

Eh. Can go either way.

Marco is the weakest here but fortunately, on the same team, they have Whitebeard, who is the strongest. How he fairs in extended combat and how his health stands up, he may be the key to their victory.

In regards to teamwork and co-existing efficiency, the Admirals clearly have the advantage. Only Marco and Whitebeard would have anything that can be considered synergy.


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## RF (Nov 4, 2014)

> When he possess very little attacking threat and relies almost exclusively on your DF to bail himself out of trouble, it's hard to see how exactly he could give an Admiral an extreme difficulty fight.



You sure love making conclusions like these based on single-page encounters. 

"Marco didn't significantly injure an admiral with one, blocked hit so he can't ever, ever do it" is the argument of a close-minded person who isn't capable of thinking outside the box.


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Shanks > Old Whitebeard >> Akainu >/= Aokiji > Current Teach > Fujitora/Kizaru/Marco/Old Sengoku/Ryokugyu > Big Mom
> 
> Shanks and Old Whitebeard are superior to everyone here by a considerable margin. Even though Big Mom is the weak link in this fight, her weakness is smaller than the difference between strongest emperors and strongest admirals. I'm assuming every character is shown in his/her strongest incarnation, too.
> 
> ...



There is so much wrong in this post .
1)No one can mid diff admiral. Don't be a fanboy now .Marines aren't that weak .They are the strongest single organization for a reason and that reason  definitely not because they have more fodders.
2) Big Mom is a Yonkou . She holds same position as WB. Marco can never beat her . He is not a Yonkou level. How do you think she was Yonkou for this much time if first mate of WB can solo her . It absolutely makes no sense.
3) By Shanks > Old WB, do you mean Shanks surpassed him now or Shanks was stronger than old WB on MF ?


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## barreltheif (Nov 4, 2014)

Marco was never a yonkou.
Gorosei: If anybody can put a stop to his advance, it would have to be the Yonkou themselves...or else Marco the Phoenix and the other remnants of the Whitebeard Pirates.


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## RF (Nov 4, 2014)

YES WE GET THAT BARRELTHEIF. THANKS.

He was put in this thread because he's probably the closest pirate (Mihawk aside) to a Yonko and the Gorosei placed him in the same bracket.


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

@ barreltheif : I repeatedly told that Marco was never Yonkou. I just put  him there for technicality and  because we needed sixth member.
It is like people don't bother reading first posts anymore.


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## Monster (Nov 4, 2014)

Mihawk is closer to a Yonkou than Marco is by power wise.


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## trance (Nov 4, 2014)

Amol said:


> @ barreltheif : I repeatedly told that Marco was never Yonkou. I just put  him there for technicality and  because we needed sixth member.



Rayleigh would've been more in sync with his teammates than Marco IMO.


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

Monster said:


> Mihawk is closer to a Yonkou than Marco is by power wise.



Marco is only there because he was captain of Whitebeard Pirates untill BB overthrowed them. WB Pirates still had their territories for some time. 
Hence despite not having enough strength Marco is in list .
It is no big deal.


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## barreltheif (Nov 4, 2014)

Amol said:


> 1)Marco was captain of WB pirates before BB became Yonkou , *so he was a Yonkou technically for some time*.





Amol said:


> Marco was just filler for Yonkou position* but he still was for however small time *





Amol said:


> @ barreltheif : I repeatedly told that Marco was never Yonkou.




Thanks for conceding. Next time you concede to me, though, please own up to it without backpedaling.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 4, 2014)

Amol said:


> 1)No one can mid diff admiral. Don't be a fanboy now .If marines aren't that weak .



They were never meant to be equals. The balance was always screwed up when you had "living legends" like Whitebeard and Roger's apprentice roaming the seas. Garp was basically out of service and living the rest of his days the way he wanted. C3 are weaker than your best emperors. That was made evident with the portrayal/skirmishes between emperors, their first in line and admirals. Logic dictates that FMs can give the strongest admirals a good fight, as shown with Marco and Beckman...even Old Rayleigh (who probably beats Kizaru).

Can the strongest admirals give the strongest emperors a good fight? That's debatable.
When you have a very sick/heavily injured Whitebeard defeating the strongest admiral, however, that clearly shows there's a difference in strength between them. Mind you, the latter didn't have any injuries that I know of. Shanks arguably has one of the greatest feats in the manga, though. He nonchalantly arrived at Marineford, scared the admiral who seemed to be fearless before Whitebeard and stopped the war with his crew alone. The Marines had Whitebeard's crew outgunned before the battle even started, and they didn't have many top-tier causalities once the war ended. Fodder causalities don't matter; there were too many of them in the first place. If Sengoku had the choice to stop two emperors in one day, he would have done so in a heartbeat.  In essence, that's eliminating half of their major enemies. It's obvious that Sengoku respected Shanks, but he knew they weren't in the position to defeat the strongest emperor after fighting one beforehand. 



> 2) Big Mom is a Yonkou . She holds same position as WB. Marco can never beat her . He is not a Yonkou level. How do you think she was Yonkou for this much time if first mate of WB cab solo her . It absolutely makes no sense.



Even though Big Mom holds the same position as Whitebeard, it doesn't mean she is close to his level of strength. Other than being an emperor, she doesn't have any hype that justifies her power. Before the timeskip, she held no relevance to the plot whatsoever, while Kaidou was coming for Whitebeard's head and got stopped by Shanks - the superior emperor with better feats/hype/portrayal - but that's neither here nor there in this discussion. My point is, there's absolutely nothing that solidifies Big Mom's power (other than being on top-tier level).



> 3) By Shanks > Old WB, do you mean Shanks surpassed him now or Shanks was stronger than old WB on MF ?



Shanks was superior to Whitebeard during both times: now and before the timeskip.
Whitebeard's health and overall power had steadily declined with his illness. Marco even inferred that he's not as powerful as he used to be; his title of WSM is merely something that stuck to his name for decades. There's no proof that he fought admirals and other emperors to retain that title. In fact, the latter keep their distance from each other for the most part. From a portrayal standpoint, Shanks evenly clashed with Old Whitebeard before the war - a time when he was likely stronger - and he even cleaned up WB's mess at Marineford with his crew alone (no allies present).

All of that really speaks volumes. There's also the fact that he holds more relevance to the plot. 
- An emperor
- One of Luffy's benchmarks
- Roger's apprentice


----------



## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Thanks for conceding. Next time you concede to me, though, please own up to it without backpedaling.



There has to be an argument to concede. 
Do you even understand the meaning technically ? It means he wasn't actually.He was just matched circumstances most.
All you are doing now is showing how you lacks reading comprehension. I mean I posted shit tons of time that Marco is not a yonkou . It is not my fault you lacks common sense.


----------



## Rocktomato (Nov 4, 2014)

I think it's like,
Sakazuki = Shanks = Ye Olde Whitebeard => Linlin = Kaido = Teech = Borsalino = Kuzan = Issho = Ryokyugyu > Marco = Old Sengoku

So perhaps either side can win. Most of their people will be dead and the rest will be crippled.


----------



## barreltheif (Nov 4, 2014)

Amol said:


> There has to be an argument to concede.
> Do you even understand the meaning technically ? It means he wasn't actually.He was just matched circumstances most.
> All you are doing now is showing how you lacks reading comprehension. I mean I posted shit tons of time that Marco is not a yonkou . It is not my fault you lacks common sense.




Maybe the problem is that English isn't your first language?
If Marco was technically a yonkou, then he was a yonkou.
He was never a yonkou.


----------



## trance (Nov 4, 2014)

Amol probably means to say that Marco has Emperor level fighting ability.


----------



## Sablés (Nov 4, 2014)

Whitebeard tips the scales for the Yonkou
Admirals get decked


----------



## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

Trance said:


> Amol probably means to say that Marco has Emperor level fighting ability.






> For the record I do not consider Marco Yonkou level. He is not there and never will be . He is there just for technicality and we needed sixth member.





> 2) Big Mom is a Yonkou . She holds same position as WB. Marco can never beat her . *He is not a Yonkou level*. How do you think she was Yonkou for this much time if first mate of WB can solo her . It absolutely makes no sense


----------



## trance (Nov 4, 2014)

So, an "unofficial" Emperor of sorts?


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## Suit (Nov 4, 2014)

He means that Marco is the closest individual to an Emperor qualified to fill the last spot in the Yonkou team in the OP.

Now you kids shut up about the technicalities and discuss your pocketmon cards quietly. :ignoramus


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## Amol (Nov 4, 2014)

Trance said:


> So, an "unofficial" Emperor of sorts?




You purposefully wrote the post before this knowing full well that I argued entire thread how he is not there in strength department.
I have already explained everything I had too.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 4, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> C3 are weaker than your best emperors. That was made evident with the portrayal/skirmishes between emperors, their first in line and admirals.


Whitebeard vs Aokiji

*Spoiler*: __ 








Whitebeard only escaped Ice Ball because he had a quake charged before hand, completely failed to make Aokiji tangible, and Aokiji was gaining a temporary edge over him, Jozu felt like he needed to step in and save his captain.

Whitebeard vs Akainu

*Spoiler*: __ 








Akainu simply lifted his leg to stop Whitebeard's bisento, then managed to clash evenly with his quakes for a time. When Whitebeard had a heart attack, Akainu put a hole in his chest (could have aimed for the head, but didn't due to CIS) with one punch and melted his innards.

Whitebeard vs Kizaru

*Spoiler*: __ 







Whitebeard failed to make Kizaru tangible despite the latter being unprepared, then Kizaru easily held down his bisento with one foot, put a hole or two in the WSM, and aimed for Ace's key at the same time.


King Itachi said:


> Logic dictates that FMs can give the strongest admirals a good fight, as shown with Marco and Beckman...even Old Rayleigh (who probably beats Kizaru).


Marco failed to injure a single Admiral and later on failed to even touch Akainu's actual body despite being a walking regenerator, bloodlusted, and had Vista's help.
Rayleigh was shown tiring in his battle with Kizaru and that was when Kizaru wasn't using moves like YnK.
Ben didn't even fight Kizaru, and Kizaru still spammed the sub after Ben told him not to.


King Itachi said:


> When you have a very sick/heavily injured Whitebeard defeating the strongest admiral


Whitebeard ambushed Akainu when he wasn't looking, lost half his head (it's only because of plot that he didn't die right there), and Akainu wasn't even knocked unconscious.


King Itachi said:


> If Sengoku had the choice to stop two emperors in one day, he would have done so in a heartbeat.  In essence, that's eliminating half of their major enemies. It's obvious that Sengoku respected Shanks, but he knew they weren't in the position to defeat the strongest emperor after fighting one beforehand.


The Marines still had at least 5 top tiers (Akainu would go down swinging, Aokiji, Kizaru, Sengoku, and Garp were all relatively fine), plus a good amount of their forces left at Marineford, and please stop pretending like they didn't have more of their forces across the world. The RH Pirates only had 2 confirmed top tiers (only one of whom could beat an Admiral). Sengoku called off another potential war to avoid further casualties.


King Itachi said:


> Even though Big Mom holds the same position as Whitebeard, it doesn't mean she is close to his level of strength.


Big Mom, the other Yonko, and the Admirals still occupy the same general level (ie the level above Whitebeard's pet parrot). Whitebeard was the only one who proved that he was in a league of his own.


King Itachi said:


> Shanks was superior to Whitebeard during both times: now and before the timeskip.


Do you have any proof of that?


King Itachi said:


> Whitebeard's health and overall power had steadily declined with his illness.


Yet Sengoku still called him the strongest and Whitebeard still showed that he was capable of immense destruction.


King Itachi said:


> There's no proof that he fought admirals and other emperors to retain that title.





> Flashback!Law: To take down all the Yonkou?! // While that would suit me just fine, you're taking this far too lightly. // *The Yonkou are Emperors of this ocean, who used to battle for territory with Whitebeard himself.*


Law said that the Yonko fought Whitebeard for territory.


King Itachi said:


> From a portrayal standpoint, Shanks evenly clashed with Old Whitebeard before the war - a time when he was likely stronger


They clashed once when Whitebeard wasn't aiming to fight and wasn't even using his DF.


----------



## barreltheif (Nov 4, 2014)

Lucky Rue said:


> He means that Marco is the closest individual to an Emperor qualified to fill the last spot in the Yonkou team in the OP.
> 
> Now you kids shut up about the technicalities and discuss your pocketmon cards quietly. :ignoramus




Is that what he means? Then why did he keep saying that Marco was technically an emperor?
And why is Marco the most qualified to fill the last spot? Why not someone who is actually yonkou level, like Mihawk or prime Shiki or Rayleigh?


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## Suit (Nov 4, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Is that what he means? Then why did he keep saying that Marco was technically an emperor?
> And why is Marco the most qualified to fill the last spot? Why not someone who is actually yonkou level, like Mihawk or prime Shiki or Rayleigh?



Because it's about _active pirates_. Now you're just trying to antagonize other users, and not being very good at hiding it.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Nov 4, 2014)

Meth said:


> You sure love making conclusions like these based on single-page encounters.
> 
> "Marco didn't significantly injure an admiral with one, blocked hit so he can't ever, ever do it" is the argument of a close-minded person who isn't capable of thinking outside the box.



That's cute RG.

"Thinking outside the box" = code for prepared to make up BS to prop up a delusional ranking for a character. 

Moreover, it seems like you're someone who's going to ignore on-panel manga evidence and instead cling on to fantasies about Marco's attack capabilities. 

It was a war and Marco's side were on the brink of extinction had Shanks not showed up, something he wasn't aware was going to happen. The admirals were hunting down every single last member of his crew and systematically wiping them out. Prior to that they were desperately trying to get through walls and walls of marine resistance to save Ace. If Marineford wasn't the perfect platform for Marco to show us the full range of his attacking capabilities then they'll never be one. 

There's _absolutely _no question that Marco wasn't holding back at Marineford.

Anyway we've gone over this between ourselves so many times already it's really pointless to re-litigate this. Neither of us are are going to change one another's minds.


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## Luke (Nov 4, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Neither of us are are going to change one another's minds.



I'll...make a Marco Wanker...out of youuuu.


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## barreltheif (Nov 4, 2014)

Lucky Rue said:


> Because it's about _active pirates_. Now you're just trying to antagonize other users, and not being very good at hiding it.




Huh? WB is definitely not an active pirate. He's dead.
Mihawk is active and yonkou level. Rayleigh is active (or at least alive) and closer to yonkou level than Marco. Prime Shiki is not active, but I don't see how that's relevant to this thread.
I'm not antagonizing anyone. You and the OP are saying things that don't make sense, and I'm trying to figure out what you're talking about.


----------



## Gohara (Nov 4, 2014)

Does it really matter that Marco isn't a Yonkou?  Amol is simply trying to start a discussion, and is using Marco to fill in since we have only seen 5 Yonkou so far in the Manga.  

The Yonkou and Marco win with mid to high difficulty.  Kaidou defeats Aokiji with around mid difficulty at most.  Old Whitebeard defeats Ryokugyu with between low difficulty and mid difficulty (closer to low difficulty than mid difficulty).  Marco defeats Kizaru with high to extremely high difficulty.  Current Blackbeard defeats Fujitora with around mid difficulty at most.  Big Mam defeats pre time skip Akainu with around high difficulty at most.  Shanks defeats current Sengoku with between low difficulty and mid difficulty.  The Admirals likely work better as a team than the Yonkou and Marco do, though, so the overall difficulty may be raised by that somewhat.

I don't agree with King Itachi in regards to how Marco and Big Mam compare to each other, but he makes some great points.  He's right in saying that insults and saying "It's common sense" aren't much of arguments.

This is a great post:



King Itachi said:


> They were never meant to be equals. The balance was always screwed up when you had "living legends" like Whitebeard and Roger's apprentice roaming the seas. Garp was basically out of service and living the rest of his days the way he wanted. C3 are weaker than your best emperors. That was made evident with the portrayal/skirmishes between emperors, their first in line and admirals. Logic dictates that FMs can give the strongest admirals a good fight, as shown with Marco and Beckman...even Old Rayleigh (who probably beats Kizaru).
> 
> Can the strongest admirals give the strongest emperors a good fight? That's debatable.
> When you have a very sick/heavily injured Whitebeard defeating the strongest admiral, however, that clearly shows there's a difference in strength between them. Mind you, the latter didn't have any injuries that I know of. Shanks arguably has one of the greatest feats in the manga, though. He nonchalantly arrived at Marineford, scared the admiral who seemed to be fearless before Whitebeard and stopped the war with his crew alone. The Marines had Whitebeard's crew outgunned before the battle even started, and they didn't have many top-tier causalities once the war ended. Fodder causalities don't matter; there were too many of them in the first place. If Sengoku had the choice to stop two emperors in one day, he would have done so in a heartbeat.  In essence, that's eliminating half of their major enemies. It's obvious that Sengoku respected Shanks, but he knew they weren't in the position to defeat the strongest emperor after fighting one beforehand.
> ...





Tea said:


> completely failed to make Aokiji tangible, and Aokiji was gaining a temporary edge over him, Jozu felt like he needed to step in and save his captain.



These aren't really proven facts.  There's nothing clearly suggesting that Aokiji wasn't hurt by Whitebeard's stab.  Aokiji gaining a temporary edge requires us to assume that he would have, and there's nothing clearly suggesting that to be the case.  Jozu attacking Aokiji came off more as Jozu suggesting that old Whitebeard doesn't need to waste his time with Aokiji, since he said "Leave it to me".  Indeed, if Whitebeard's 2nd or 3rd most powerful subordinate is capable of fighting on par with an Admiral when you exclude surprise attacks, I don't see how Aokiji is close to the level of someone multiple levels above Jozu.



Tea said:


> Akainu simply lifted his leg to stop Whitebeard's bisento, then managed to clash evenly with his quakes for a time.



Akainu powered his blow with Magma, and he only stopped a blow from old Whitebeard that was aimed at foot soldier Marines.



Tea said:


> When Whitebeard had a heart attack, Akainu put a hole in his chest (could have aimed for the head, but didn't due to CIS) with one punch and melted his innards.



Yes, but as you said, that was while old Whitebeard was already down.



Tea said:


> Whitebeard failed to make Kizaru tangible despite the latter being unprepared



It's unclear if Whitebeard's Bisento stopped Kizaru from going but failed to do damage, or if Kizaru dodged it.

If anything, though, it was actually old Whitebeard who had disadvantageous positioning here.  He was reaching out at the last second just to stop Kizaru from going to where Ace was at the time.



Tea said:


> then Kizaru easily held down his bisento with one foot



He stepped on old Whitebeard's Bisento, which was already down close to the ground.



Tea said:


> Marco failed to injure a single Admiral and later on failed to even touch Akainu's actual body despite being a walking regenerator, bloodlusted, and had Vista's help.



Marco overpowered Kizaru at one point in their clash.  It's true that Marco didn't damage pre time skip Akainu, but that example is too brief to really tell us much.  We've seen Marco hit Admirals, and since you believe that there have been instances in which old Whitebeard failed to make Kizaru and Aokiji tangible, it's likely that Marco can damage pre time skip Akainu and simply didn't in that specific instance.



Tea said:


> Rayleigh was shown tiring in his battle with Kizaru and that was when Kizaru wasn't using moves like YnK.



We don't know what techniques Kizaru used and didn't use in that fight, but he expressed frustration that old Rayleigh wasn't letting him get past him.  As such, it's likely that Kizaru was going all out or at least trying hard at the time.



Tea said:


> Ben didn't even fight Kizaru, and Kizaru still spammed the sub after Ben told him not to.



Kizaru attacked the submarine after Beckman left the area.  Indeed, I see no reason for Kizaru to wait for Beckman to leave the area unless he was being genuine when he surrendered to him.  Not to mention Kizaru expressed frustration when old Rayleigh and Kuma prevented him from capturing Luffy, and that was before he found out that Luffy is Dragon's son and Ace's brother.



Tea said:


> Whitebeard ambushed Akainu when he wasn't looking



Akainu not looking was followed by a verbal warning of Whitebeard's presence and multiple panels between said verbal warning and when he was attacked.

Old Whitebeard also had many disadvantages.  He took a lot of damage and used his Quake powers a lot outside of that fight, and fought many others.  Yet, despite all those disadvantages, old Whitebeard bested pre time skip Akainu.  I find it hard to believe that an Admiral can take a lot of damage, use a lot of techniques, fight many others- including multiple other Admirals- and still be capable of fighting on par with another Admiral, let alone besting one.



Tea said:


> The Marines still had at least 5 top tiers (Akainu would go down swinging, Aokiji, Kizaru, Sengoku, and Garp were all relatively fine), plus a good amount of their forces left at Marineford, and please stop pretending like they didn't have more of their forces across the world. The RH Pirates only had 2 confirmed top tiers (only one of whom could beat an Admiral). Sengoku called off another potential war to avoid further casualties.
> 
> Big Mom, the other Yonko, and the Admirals still occupy the same general level (ie the level above Whitebeard's pet parrot). Whitebeard was the only one who proved that he was in a league of his own.



King Itachi has a great point here.

Even if we assume that Doflamingo isn't around Admiral level in terms of power, the World Government essentially had 5 Admiral level characters and 1 above Admiral level character on their side.  If we assume that Shanks and old Whitebeard are around Admiral level in terms of power or a little above it, that's essentially 6 Admirals vs. 2 Admirals.  Yet, the 6 Admirals in this case were scared to fight the 2 Admirals.

As King Itachi said here, there's no reason that Sengoku wouldn't take the opportunity to take out half of the Yonkou if he knew that it was likely that they would do so.  If 2 Admirals vs. 2 Admirals is around even, then 4 Admirals vs. 2 Admirals is a fight in which the 4 Admirals win with around mid difficulty.  If 4 Admirals vs. 2 Admirals is a fight in which the 4 Admirals win with around mid difficulty, 6 Admirals vs. 2 Admirals is a fight in which the 6 Admirals win with low to mid difficulty at most.  I don't see why Sengoku would pass up the chance to defeat half the Yonkou with low to mid difficulty.

Furthering this is old Garp stating that it would be very difficult for the World Government to take on old Whitebeard and old Rayleigh at the same time.  If we subtract some of old Whitebeard's power and add it to old Rayleigh's to even them out at being around 2 Admiral level characters based on your estimation, that's old Garp essentially stating that it would be very difficult for 6 Admirals to defeat 2 Admirals.

It's also been implied that the Yonkou crews are around the same league in terms of power.  If each Admiral is around Yonkou level in terms of power, that means that the World Government fought 2 Yonkou while having 6 Yonkou on their side, and surrendered after the 2nd Yonkou came to the battlefield.

I just don't see how it adds up.  Saying that the Yonkou and Admirals are all around the same league in terms of power and therefore King Itachi's point is invalid doesn't really add up, because the point of dispute is how powerful the Yonkou and Admirals are compared to each other.  The point of dispute doesn't rightfully serve as evidence for the conclusion of said dispute.

Of course, this is all just IMO.


----------



## Suit (Nov 5, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Huh? WB is definitely not an active pirate. He's dead.
> Mihawk is active and yonkou level. Rayleigh is active (or at least alive) and closer to yonkou level than Marco. Prime Shiki is not active, but I don't see how that's relevant to this thread.
> I'm not antagonizing anyone. You and the OP are saying things that don't make sense, and I'm trying to figure out what you're talking about.



Rayleigh is not active. Mihawk isn't a pirate. WB is there because he _was_ a real Yonkou. Your existence is literally painful in this thread. Stop being a twat and get back on topic.


----------



## Freechoice (Nov 5, 2014)

No votes at all for the Admirals

Why does that make me giddy?


----------



## barreltheif (Nov 5, 2014)

Lucky Rue said:


> Rayleigh is not active. Mihawk isn't a pirate. WB is there because he _was_ a real Yonkou. Your existence is literally painful in this thread. Stop being a twat and get back on topic.




Why does it matter whether Rayleigh is active? Again, WB isn't active.
I don't know why you're so adamant to defend the grouping of Marco with the yonkou. The OP mistakenly claimed that Marco is a yonkou, and grouped Marco with the yonkou when there are stronger pirates than Marco. It's not a big deal.
Why not just concede that this was a harmless, minor mistake, and move on, instead of insulting me and getting defensive?


----------



## Amol (Nov 5, 2014)

lol said:


> No votes at all for the Admirals
> 
> Why does that make me giddy?



Because it means there is still hope for OL


----------



## Tenma (Nov 5, 2014)

Gohara said:


> These aren't really proven facts.  There's nothing clearly suggesting that Aokiji wasn't hurt by Whitebeard's stab.  Aokiji gaining a temporary edge requires us to assume that he would have, and there's nothing clearly suggesting that to be the case.  Jozu attacking Aokiji came off more as Jozu suggesting that old Whitebeard doesn't need to waste his time with Aokiji, since he said "Leave it to me".  Indeed, if Whitebeard's 2nd or 3rd most powerful subordinate is capable of fighting on par with an Admiral when you exclude surprise attacks, I don't see how Aokiji is close to the level of someone multiple levels above Jozu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Eh, the number of excuses you will make for Whitebeard and his crew is commendable. With the exception of the final battle against Akainu (where he pasted him while he wasn't looking), in every battle with an Admiral Whitebeard emerged in either a disadvantageous or equal position. If you will use a practically entirely offpaneled battle between Aokiji and Jozu as proof they are equal (for al we know, Jozu could have been getting knocked around the whole fight), why do you ignore 3 blatantly equal fights between WB and the Admirals?

If Whitebeard skewered Aokiji he would be dead. Clearly Aokiji didn't actually turn tangible. And its hard to consider Aokiji and Jozu in the same league when one can only givd the other a bloody lip with a cheapshot, while a similar cheapshot basically oneshots Jozu.


----------



## RF (Nov 5, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> That's cute RG.
> 
> "Thinking outside the box" = code for prepared to make up BS to prop up a delusional ranking for a character.
> 
> ...



Considering you are more than happy to assume that an admiral has what it takes to wear down Marco's regeneration despite none of them displaying such capabilities on-panel, I think we're both guilty of this "making up BS to prop up a delusional ranking for a character", or what I prefer to call it, "Not being a biased dumbass".


----------



## Coruscation (Nov 5, 2014)

Tea said:
			
		

> Whitebeard vs Aokiji
> 
> Whitebeard only escaped Ice Ball because he had a quake charged before hand, completely failed to make Aokiji tangible, and Aokiji was gaining a temporary edge over him, Jozu felt like he needed to step in and save his captain.
> 
> ...



The fact that you completely neglect to mention a single word of how Whitebeard was notably suffering from injuries during all these fights, but especially the lattermost, is indicative of your heavy bias in the Admirals' favor. And I wonder how you would describe Jozu vs. Aokiji considering you write that Akainu "clashed equally" with Whitebeard for a time, before outside circumstances put an end to it? You remember that Jozu and Aokiji fought each other for a longer period of time than Whitebeard and Akainu, right?

And to say that Aokiji was gaining an edge over Whitebeard is... debatable at best. Whitebeard literally didn't even sweat as Aokiji wrapped himself around the bisento and launched his ice projectiles. He then casually strolled along while letting his 3rd in command take over. Does that look like the picture of Whitebeard in trouble to you? And to suggest that Jozu felt that he had to step in and "save" his captain is surely the height of bias. Jozu most certainly stepped in because Whitebeard needed to hurry and go forth to save Ace, not waste time and energy fighting each Admiral in tandem if it could be avoided (which it could as Jozu and Marco were each capable of keeping an Admiral in check for a time) as his illness and injury were taking more of a toll every second.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 5, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> The fact that you completely neglect to mention a single word of how Whitebeard was notably suffering from injuries during all these fights


Nice to know that a stab from Squard affected Whitebeard more than the other few hundred stabs, bullets, and 46 cannonballs when he fought Akainu and Aokiji (mind showing what other injuries Whitebeard suffered on his way to the plaza?).
Would Whitebeard vs the Admirals have gone any differently if Whitebeard hadn't been stabbed and wasn't sick? Sure, but it wouldn't be a large amount. Whitebeard's clashes with the Admirals showed it was going to be very hard to find an opening, and then Punk Hazard showed us that two of these Admirals were capable of fighting and surviving a ten day battle with each other while changing the climate of PH as a side effect. Whitebeard wouldn't have been able to beat an Admiral (all three of whom were shown to be very close to each other in terms of strength) anything short of solid high diff, and I've been considering bumping that diff up a little.


Coruscation said:


> And I wonder how you would describe Jozu vs. Aokiji considering you write that Akainu "clashed equally" with Whitebeard for a time, before outside circumstances put an end to it?


Jozu's best and only feat is making Aokiji bleed a little when he caught him offguard. Jozu did great to hold off Aokiji, but that's it, and he wasn't going to push Aokiji to the limit.


Coruscation said:


> And to say that Aokiji was gaining an edge over Whitebeard is... debatable at best.


- Whitebeard couldn't make Aokiji tangible (nor any of the other Admirals until he got bloodlusted)
- Aokiji froze his bisento
- Whitebeard wasn't doing anything to stop ice spears that were inches from his face

In that instance, Aokiji had a temporary edge over Whitebeard, there's no other way around it.


Coruscation said:


> And to suggest that Jozu felt that he had to step in and "save" his captain is surely the height of bias. Jozu most certainly stepped in because Whitebeard needed to hurry and go forth to save Ace, not waste time and energy fighting each Admiral in tandem if it could be avoided (which it could as Jozu and Marco were each capable of keeping an Admiral in check for a time) as his illness and injury were taking more of a toll every second.


So basically you're saying Jozu wanted to step in and stop his captain from getting any more injuries from an opponent he knew would take a lot out of Whitebeard? Thanks for arguing for my point.
Also, I love how you complain about my post about the Admirals, and not when people say Shanks > Whitebeard with no proof.


----------



## Gohara (Nov 5, 2014)

I'm not the only one on this specific forum who thinks that Shanks is more powerful than old/sick Whitebeard.  So don't blame me.  

-Taking away the damage old/sick Whitebeard received outside of his fight against pre time skip Akainu alone should reduce the difficulty in which the former defeated the latter from around high difficulty at most to around mid difficulty, IMO.  Not being damaged outside of their fight would mean that pre time skip Akainu would have to deal old/sick Whitebeard a lot more damage than he did in their fight.  However, old/sick Whitebeard had pre time skip Akainu down on the ground, so if he kept attacking then the former would likely win without being damaged anywhere near enough to be defeated.  If the energy old/sick Whitebeard expended outside of the aforementioned fight, that reduces the difficulty more.

-The idea that Aokiji wasn't going all out or at least trying hard against Jozu is speculative.  We have no reason to believe that Jozu was using any more of his own power at the time than Aokiji was using of his.

-We don't know that Whitebeard wouldn't have stopped Aokiji's technique, nor do we know that the latter's technique would have damaged the former.

@ Tenma.

I don't see how that's really true.  In his first confrontation with Aokiji, he actually bested him, although it was brief.  In his second confrontation with Aokiji, whether or not he got the better of him depends on if Aokiji was really stabbed.  You said Aokiji clearly wasn't hurt by the stab, but we weren't given much indication that such is the case.  Even if we assume that your interpretation of that is correct, though, the fight was also brief.  In his confrontation with Kizaru, he only reached out to stop Kizaru from going to where Ace was at the time at the last second.  Once Kizaru dodged that, though, he was in an advantageous position as old Whitebeard's Bisento was reached out and close to the ground, giving Kizaru an opening to attack him.  Had old Whitebeard been trying to fight Kizaru rather than just stop him from going to where Ace was at the time, he could have just used his Quake abilities.  In his confrontation with pre time skip Akainu, he bested him.  Indeed, though, old Whitebeard took a lot of damage outside of his fight with pre time skip Akainu.  He also used his Quake abilities a lot outside of his fight with pre time skip Akainu.  Each time he uses a Quake ability, he's naturally expending energy.  So using a lot of Quake abilities adds up.  I don't see how that's just making excuses.

Jozu fought Aokiji longer than old Whitebeard fought Aokiji and Kizaru.  Furthermore, neither Jozu nor Aokiji were notably more damaged than the other outside of their fight with each other.  Neither notably expended more energy outside of their fight with each other.  Neither fought much outside of their fight with each other.  Outside of surprise attacks, they fought on par with each other.


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## Pirao (Nov 6, 2014)

Old WB>Aokiji
Shanks>Kizaru
Kaido=Akainu
Current Teach=Ryokugyu (probably)
Big Mom=Old Sengoku
Marco<=Fujitora

There's just more power in the Yonkou side.


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## Amol (Nov 6, 2014)

Pirao said:


> Old WB>Aokiji
> Shanks>Kizaru
> Kaido=Akainu
> Current Teach=Ryokugyu (probably)
> ...



Why not have Old WB vs Akainu ? 
This way Kiado will surely defeat Aokiji if Kiado = Akainu.
Three guaranteed victories for Yonkou.


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## Tenma (Nov 6, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I
> I don't see how that's really true.  In his first confrontation with Aokiji, he actually bested him, although it was brief.



Er, Aokiji wasn't even scratched.




> In his second confrontation with Aokiji, whether or not he got the better of him depends on if Aokiji was really stabbed. You said Aokiji clearly wasn't hurt by the stab, but we weren't given much indication that such is the case. Even if we assume that your interpretation of that is correct, though, the fight was also brief.



Yeah, it was too brief of an exchange to make much of, but the fact that in the majority of the WB vs Admiral conflicts neither side got a solid advantage over the other is a sign of general equality.

And if Aokiji got injured it was incredibly minor at best given he didn't show signs of pain. So...good for Whitebeard I guess?



> In his confrontation with Kizaru, he only reached out to stop Kizaru from going to where Ace was at the time at the last second. Once Kizaru dodged that, though, he was in an advantageous position as old Whitebeard's Bisento was reached out and close to the ground, giving Kizaru an opening to attack him. Had old Whitebeard been trying to fight Kizaru rather than just stop him from going to where Ace was at the time, he could have just used his Quake abilities.



If Kizaru was fully focused on fighting WB and not trying to stop Luffy, he would have just taken to the air and spammed lasers.

Again, if WB was really so much stronger than Kizaru that he could low-diff him, the circumstances wouldn't have mattered. Kizaru would have been knocked flat on his ass by that first swing. The fact that minor circumstances can tilt things in favour of Kizaru shows there shouldn't be a gross difference in their power. Would WB have won in the long run? Of course. But it would be a tough fight.



> Indeed, though, old Whitebeard took a lot of damage outside of his fight with pre time skip Akainu. He also used his Quake abilities a lot outside of his fight with pre time skip Akainu. Each time he uses a Quake ability, he's naturally expending energy. So using a lot of Quake abilities adds up. I don't see how that's just making excuses.



Yeah, but everyone was fighting and expending energy in Marineford. WB was tired, but so was everyone else.




> Jozu fought Aokiji longer than old Whitebeard fought Aokiji and Kizaru. Furthermore, neither Jozu nor Aokiji were notably more damaged than the other outside of their fight with each other. Neither notably expended more energy outside of their fight with each other. Neither fought much outside of their fight with each other. Outside of surprise attacks, they fought on par with each other.



For someone who insists on 'solid proof' like yourself though, an entirely offpaneled fight should hardly constitute as proof of Jozu's equality with Aokiji. For all we know, Jozu could have been forced on defensive the whole time. What we do know is Jozu's blow did jackshit to Aokiji while Aokiji KO'd him in one attack.

I do think the Yonkou are as a whole slightly stronger than the Admirals, but there's no low or mid-diffing going around here.


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## Gohara (Nov 7, 2014)

-We don't know that he wasn't damaged.  It's possible that he was, and that it just wasn't clearly shown.  Even if the wound is minor, that still means that it could be said that the confrotation wasn't equal.  Even if I agree that the specific confrontation was equal, I would still say that Whitebeard bested Aokiji during their first confrontation in the Marineford War.  So, that would be 2 out of 3 Whitebeard vs. Admiral confrontations in which Whitebeard got the better of an Admiral, despite having disadvantages in most of his confrontations with Admirals.

-Whitebeard can aim his techniques in the air.  I respectfully disagree that the circumstances don't matter here.  Hody Jones gave Luffy a good fight due to the latter having disadvantages.

-True, but Akainu didn't fight anyone outside of Whitebeard until after the latter was defeated.  Kizaru and Aokiji also didn't fight much outside of their confrontations with Whitebeard.

-I ask for proof because some on this forum seem to think that the Admirals being around or close to Yonkou level in terms of power is factual.  I consistently mention that a lot of what I say here is opinionated.  What you're saying about Jozu vs. Aokiji is partially true, but we at least know that the former wasn't visibly notably damaged.  Is that full fledged proof that Jozu is around as powerful as Aokiji?  No, but IMO it's more evidence than what we have suggesting that Aokiji is significantly more powerful than Jozu.

-Well, I have no issue with you viewing it that way.  You could turn out to be right.  I just see nothing wrong with those who estimate that the Yonkou defeat the Admirals with low to mid difficulty.  There's not really anything that clearly suggests that view to be incorrect.  It could be wrong, but it's not baseless, nor is it odd for some to view it that way.  To be fair, there's nothing wrong with some viewing it the way that you do.


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## GIORNO (Nov 8, 2014)

I love how Yonko fans wank the fuck out of the Yonko saying they're > Admirals.

Then you have the Admiral fans who are more reasonable and less illogical who agree they're both equal.

Why am I not surprised?


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## Sabco (Nov 8, 2014)

C3 Admiral = Yonkou > Average Admiral


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## trance (Nov 9, 2014)

Giorno said:


> I love how Yonko fans wank the fuck out of the Yonko saying they're > Admirals.
> 
> Then you have the Admiral fans who are more reasonable and less illogical who agree they're both equal.
> 
> Why am I not surprised?



Because they just see what's on paper without looking deeper. From first glance, it does look like Whitebeard "two shotted" Sakazuki but upon further inspection, the circumstances regarding that clash involved a rather substantial amount of plot (Teach appearing and Whitebeard confronting him mere seconds after Sakazuki falls) and inconsistency (Sakazuki can hear Whitebeard's main fleet surfacing from the depths hundreds of meters below yet can't hear the footsteps of a 20-foot, pissed off man a couple meters behind him) but above all else, _it was an ambush_. *Whitebeard deliberately chose to attack from behind.* 

Mind you; this is just _one_ instance.


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## RF (Nov 9, 2014)

So it's wankery to say Yonko > Admiral?

...


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## Sablés (Nov 9, 2014)

Yeah, not enough of evidence to suggest Yonkou are > Admirals. Even less so considering the latter have feats.

Now Yonkou including Whitebeard is a different story.


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## RF (Nov 9, 2014)

Not enough evidence to conclude anything

At this point it's just a complete shot in the dark and could go either way, claiming a different view to be wankery is simply pushing your biased idea down other peoples throats


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## Kaiser (Nov 9, 2014)

Old WB mid-high diff Akainu
Kaido high-extreme diff Kuzan
Shanks high diff Kizaru
Marco vs Fujitora can go either way

Yonkou and Marco are stronger


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## trance (Nov 9, 2014)

Meth said:


> So it's wankery to say Yonko > Admiral?
> 
> ...



It's wankery to say that any of them can beat an Admiral with "mid" or "low" difficulty. I wouldn't even expect Roger to low diff an Admiral.


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## RF (Nov 9, 2014)

There's like 2 people on the forum who actually think that


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## Amol (Nov 9, 2014)

Trance said:


> It's wankery to say that any of them can beat an Admiral with "mid" or "low" difficulty. I wouldn't even expect Roger to low diff an Admiral.



There must be too many of them.
Can you name few of them ?
I can show you how admiral can mid diff both Jozu and Vista together.


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## TheWiggian (Nov 9, 2014)

sabco said:


> C3 Admiral = Yonkou > Average Admiral






I still want to know wtf an average admiral is and why u call them like that?


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## Kaiser (Nov 9, 2014)

It's easier to become an admiral than a yonkou. You can basical find admiral level fighters around the world, just like Fujitora or Ryokyugyu


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## Sabco (Nov 9, 2014)

TheWiggian said:


> I still want to know wtf an average admiral is and why u call them like that?




Kizaru, Kuzan , Akainu >>>> Fujitora and Ryokugyo


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## GIORNO (Nov 9, 2014)

Liquid said:


> Yeah, not enough of evidence to suggest Yonkou are > Admirals. Even less so considering the latter have feats.
> 
> Now Yonkou including Whitebeard is a different story.



Nah, WB is an exception. He stood out amongst everyone, including the Yonko (aside from Shanks ).


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## trance (Nov 9, 2014)

Meth said:


> There's like 2 people on the forum who actually think that



Not just on this forum.


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## Magician (Nov 9, 2014)

Trance said:


> Not just on this forum.



Youtube comments aren't to be taken seriously.


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## Urouge (Nov 9, 2014)

Meth said:


> There's like 2 people on the forum who actually think that



Why do you keep quiet when they post shit like that and then get up in arms when an admiral wanker or fan does the same thing. You're clearly not as objective as you think you are bro. Take king itachi post for example. His post are way more absurd and ridiculous than anything the kizaru and tea for example post about the admirals. There's actually more younkou supporter here and this thread proves it.


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## TheWiggian (Nov 9, 2014)

sabco said:


> Kizaru, Kuzan , Akainu >>>> Fujitora and Ryokugyo



Based on what? Fanfiction?


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## Urouge (Nov 10, 2014)

Amol said:


> There must be too many of them.
> Can you name few of them ?
> I can show you how admiral can mid diff both Jozu and Vista together.



You might be right about the jozu vista thing but can you tell me how many of those poster would think that younkou can't do the same thing? Haven't seen an admiral fan saying that admirals can low diff or mid diff a younkou.



Kaiser said:


> It's easier to become an admiral than a yonkou. You can basical find admiral level fighters around the world, just like Fujitora or Ryokyugyu



Huh this is stupid. To become an admiral you must only count on your strenght but to become a younkou you need a strong crew. You can be as strong as old WB you cannot become a younkou with a crew as strong as the sh. The fujitora and ryokyugyu example is also stupid. The op world is massive. It's not a knock on the admiral title if only 2 guys out of a world draft were strong enough to be an admiral. Look at teach he became a younkou pretty quick. To become a younkou you need more than strenght. The only good reason to put the younkou a bit above the admirals is that the current era is a pirate era.


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## Magician (Nov 10, 2014)

Urouge said:


> Why do you keep quiet when they post shit like that and then get up in arms when an admiral wanker or fan does the same thing. You're clearly not as objective as you think you are bro. Take king itachi post for example. His post are way more absurd and ridiculous than anything the kizaru and tea for example post about the admirals. There's actually more younkou supporter here and this thread proves it.



Because some people are actually credible posters and usually have credible opinions. So when you see them make a post that you heavily disagree with,  you naturally want to debate it.

But if it were a poster that consistently shows shitty opinions, why even bother?


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## Urouge (Nov 10, 2014)

I agree with this which is why gohara is actually the first person I added on my ignore list. The thing is why do you guys ignore the younkou wankers with shitty opinion but don't the admiral wanker. You know I just want to see you guys be consistent.


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## Magician (Nov 10, 2014)

Urouge said:


> I agree with this which is why gohara is actually the first person I added on my ignore list. The thing is why do you guys ignore the younkou wankers with shitty opinion but don't the admiral wanker. You know I just want to see you guys be consistent.



To be frank.

I don't see a lot of Yonko wank from people I consider credible in the OL. Most of the hardcore Yonko wank are probably from the peeps I don't take serious.

Like I've literally don't remember people saying a Yonko can mid diff an Admiral or anything like that. And if someone has said something of the like, they're probably on my ignore list.

Can't speak for others though, I just personally don't see this major Yonko wank you guys are talking about.


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## Amol (Nov 10, 2014)

Urouge said:


> You might be right about the jozu vista thing but can you tell me how many of those poster would think that younkou can't do the same thing? Haven't seen an admiral fan saying that admirals can low diff or mid diff a younkou.


1 or 2 trolls making baseless statements doesn't equals to said character being wanked. We label them as troll.
You got to ignore those trolls. Have you seen *any * decent member making such comment  against Admirals? 
On other hand AK and Tea are one of the respected members around here .
We voted them for MoM . So it is expected from them to have most unbiased posts . 
Currently OL is like divided in various fandoms . Posters here are recognised by their favourite characters instead of how good overall they are.
I don't want myself to associate with single character or group of characters. AK didn't even replied back when I tried to talk to him. 
Are some fictional characters that important ?
Silence will only increase tension .
It is real shame to have such animosity over fictional characters.


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## barreltheif (Nov 10, 2014)

Urouge said:


> I agree with this which is why gohara is actually the first person I added on my ignore list. The thing is why do you guys ignore the younkou wankers with shitty opinion but don't the admiral wanker. You know I just want to see you guys be consistent.




Because there aren't really any admiral wankers here. There _are _people who go out of their way to argue for the admirals, but there's no one who has an unreasonably high estimation of the admirals.
Just look at the poll. Right now, only 1 out of 35 people voted for the admirals, even though the admirals are widely recognized to be roughly on the same level as the yonkou.


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## Gohara (Nov 10, 2014)

I think it's as simple as if something is clearly the case or clearly not the case, you should be able to prove it, and if you can't then insulting the person you disagree with isn't much different than what Meth is saying here.  "No way this character can be defeated with less than high difficulty" Isn't justification on it's own for saying a view is incorrect, because indeed, the point of dispute is whether or not that character can be defeated with less than high difficulty.


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## barreltheif (Nov 10, 2014)

Sometimes people are so unreasonable that you can't even argue with them. If someone simply denies the facts, there's really not much you can do. For instance, if someone thinks that there were men in the world stronger than Whitebeard, all you can do is tell them to go back and read the manga.


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## Gohara (Nov 10, 2014)

Maybe, but when views are written off without proof, that's another story.  Views being unreasonable is subjective.  If they are that unreasonable, it should be easy to prove them wrong.  When insults are thrown out in absence of proof, that really just makes it seem like there's clearly no proof.

I don't entirely agree with your Whitebeard example, but that's for another thread.


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## Freechoice (Nov 10, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Sometimes people are so unreasonable that you can't even argue with them. If someone simply denies the facts, there's really not much you can do. For instance, if someone thinks that there were men in the world stronger than Whitebeard, all you can do is tell them to go back and read the manga.


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## RF (Nov 10, 2014)

Urouge said:


> Why do you keep quiet when they post shit like that and then get up in arms when an admiral wanker or fan does the same thing. You're clearly not as objective as you think you are bro. Take king itachi post for example. His post are way more absurd and ridiculous than anything the kizaru and tea for example post about the admirals. There's actually more younkou supporter here and this thread proves it.



Most of the Yonko wankers on here aren't even taken seriously, why should I respond to them?


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