# Laharl enter the sailormoon verse



## almanar (Mar 24, 2016)

The Overlord Laharl need new powerful vassal againts his enemy who want overthrown him from his " overlord title. day to day they got stronger faster then he expected. After do searching he find a great power come from a certain dimension. It is Sailor moon verse. He decided to enter it himself. 
Laharl arrived when all sailor senshi( mercury- Pluto) fought their enemy. Lahar showoff and kill their enemy at once with ease. Then he declared one vs all of them with condition
1. All sailor lost he will conqueror their world
2. The senshi won. He will choose one of them and leave their world.

Is he stupid ??? Or he pick a good choice. 

THE OVERLORD LAHARL (DISGAEA)

                         VS

ALL SENSHI ( MERCURY- PLUTO)

No restrict. All skill allowed. 

Begin


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 24, 2016)

Uhh. He should kill them in raw power but they have a ass load of hax that I dont know about. their speed isnt too different though


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## Finalbeta (Mar 24, 2016)

He can't solo


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## almanar (Mar 24, 2016)

I see .is anyone know what kind of hax sailor senshi actually have? And which one of them could be give Laharl a hard time?


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## Agent9149 (Mar 25, 2016)

His obd profile says his speed is based on a feat that which he flew to the sun in seconds. That's way too slow for the Sailor Senshi who flew across the galaxy in a second at the most. 

Does he have resistance to soul manipulation at a galactic level? Immune to soul ripping? if not then he's done for.

What time and space manipulation?

The senshi can all be scaled to small galaxy+ in DC and Durability, and they can all be resurrected at will


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## Imperator100 (Mar 25, 2016)

I must admit I've having trouble understanding the OP. It seems like he loses to an Eternal Sailor Senshi and especially a Lambda Senshi. He might beat Base or Super depending how fast his "MFTL" is and what his hax resistance is like.


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## almanar (Mar 25, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> His obd profile says his speed is based on a feat that which he flew to the sun in seconds. That's way too slow for the Sailor Senshi who flew across the galaxy in a second at the most.
> 
> Does he have resistance to soul manipulation at a galactic level? Immune to soul ripping? if not then he's done for.
> 
> ...


This is what he got



About resist, he got 90% all resistance , that mean he is almost cant be harm by any hax.


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## Keollyn (Mar 25, 2016)

Laharl isn't universal. Not even close.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 25, 2016)

Loses at the very least to the Lambda Senshi, possibly the Eternal Senshi, particularly Saturn and Pluto. This is assuming he has the Trillions of Times Lightspeed Feat I've heard about. If speed was equal he could lose to Super or even Base Senshi due to hax.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 25, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> His obd profile says his speed is based on a feat that which he flew to the sun in seconds. That's way too slow for the Sailor Senshi who flew across the galaxy in a second at the most.
> 
> Does he have resistance to soul manipulation at a galactic level? Immune to soul ripping? if not then he's done for.
> 
> ...



Darkdeath Evilman's ray crossed the milky way in a fraction of a second and Laharl scales to that


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## Keollyn (Mar 25, 2016)

@Imperator: I don't think there's anyone with that level of speed in Disgaea outside of attack speed.

It's iffy if he gets that (never liked scaling output that everyone does), but his speed should be the sun feat (as that's the general ougi showing too... think there's 2 other sun reaching feats littered throughout the series)

And no, Laharl is not resistant to almost all hax. That can only be attested to the highest of top tier, and even that was never alluded to.


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## Agent9149 (Mar 25, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Darkdeath Evilman's ray crossed the milky way in a fraction of a second and Laharl scales to that



It says he dodged it or are you saying he was able to keep up with it or outspeed it. Which one?


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## Imperator100 (Mar 25, 2016)

Well General Stats for the Senshi are in order:

Base Forms: FTL (Hundreds of Times), Likely MFTL (Thousands of Times) Low Galactic Level
Super Form: Likely MFTL+ (Thousands of Times) Galactic Level
Eternal Form: MFTL+ (High-End Billions of Times) Big Bang Level+
Lambda Form: Speed Irrelevant. Universal Level.

All with varying degrees of hax.


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## Keollyn (Mar 25, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> It says he dodged it or are you saying he was able to keep up with it or outspeed it. Which one?



Laharl didn't even fight him, least not in any main story.


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## Agent9149 (Mar 25, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> Well General Stats for the Senshi are in order:
> 
> Base Forms: FTL (Hundreds of Times), Likely MFTL (Thousands of Times) Low Galactic Level
> Super Form: Likely MFTL+ (Thousands of Times) Galactic Level
> ...



When you say, Lambda forms, are you referring to their perfect forms when they are inside the Galaxy Cauldron


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## Imperator100 (Mar 25, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> When you say, Lambda forms, are you referring to their perfect forms when they are inside the Galaxy Cauldron



Yes! The forms they attained after they absorbed the power of Usagi emanating the Lambda Power which impressed even Guardian Cosmos, who of course could survive within the Galaxy Cauldron at the same time as Chaos.


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## Agent9149 (Mar 25, 2016)

Keollyn said:


> Laharl didn't even fight him, least not in any main story.



Then how does he get power scaled to that? Did someone else fight him and then dodged the attack or kept up with it/outsped it? And then was Laharl able to tag that person with an attack or outspeed them?




Imperator100 said:


> Yes! The forms they attained after they absorbed the power of Usagi emanating the Lambda Power which impressed even Guardian Cosmos, who of course could survive within the Galaxy Cauldron at the same time as Chaos.



When they're in there they're basically abstract forms.


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## Keollyn (Mar 25, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> Then how does he get power scaled to that? Did someone else fight him and then dodged the attack or kept up with it/outsped it? And then was Laharl able to tag that person with an attack or outspeed them?



From my understanding, it is Laharl being stronger than the person that beat him... I dunno. 

Scaling in Disgaea is all kinds of wonky. Has a lot to do with postgame shenanigans being taking at face value rather than case-by-case.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 25, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> When they're in there they're basically abstract forms.



I suppose but Lambda Forms I feel are a much more direct explanation of what they are, as these are the forms imbued with Lambda Power.


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## Agent9149 (Mar 26, 2016)

Keollyn said:


> From my understanding, it is Laharl being stronger than the person that beat him... I dunno.
> 
> Scaling in Disgaea is all kinds of wonky. Has a lot to do with postgame shenanigans being taking at face value rather than case-by-case.



Well it's really weird to quantify since it's a video game. He destroys the galaxy but then the cutscene ends and area around them is still there and then the next guys destroys the galaxy that's supposed to be already destroyed from the last guy. Seems pretty fun though lol

But specifically to the battle, I have yet seen any resistance to time/space manipulation or soul manipulation, and the senshi have that going.

If the Larhal does get powerscaled to speed of that attack, that puts him around the same speed of the senshi. 




Imperator100 said:


> I suppose but Lambda Forms I feel are a much more direct explanation of what they are, as these are the forms imbued with Lambda Power.



They're basically one with the cauldron, I never saw them as being able to fight in that form, it seamed more like heaven and they're cute angels and Cosmos Guardian referred to their other star forms like it's their physical forms but regardless any being that has or uses the Lamba power is universal.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 26, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> They're basically one with the cauldron,


How do you figure?



> I never saw them as being able to fight in that form,


They have the Lambda Power. Ergo they are some of the strongest fighters in Sailor Moon. Enough to solo DBS.



> it seamed more like heaven and they're cute angels and Cosmos Guardian referred to their other star forms like it's their physical forms but regardless any being that has or uses the Lamba power is universal.


Universal....but the haxes in particular are more important like their broken regen and just the insane amount of stuff they can do.


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## almanar (Mar 26, 2016)

His speed is Massively FTL+ (faster than Babylon, capable of dodging lasers than can travel the diameter of the Milky Way Galaxy in under one-thirtieth of a second, and has speed on par with people who can do things like this, at least hundreds of trillions of times the speed of light)
In conclusion if sailor senshi atk speed and accuracy, below that. So all hax their have was futile, because Laharl dodge it for sure.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 26, 2016)

almanar said:


> His speed is Massively FTL+ (faster than Babylon, capable of dodging lasers than can travel the diameter of the Milky Way Galaxy in under one-thirtieth of a second, and has speed on par with people who can do things like this, at least hundreds of trillions of times the speed of light)
> In conclusion if sailor senshi atk speed and accuracy, below that. So all hax their have was futile, because Laharl dodge it for sure.



How fast is Babylon?
Dodging=Reflex Speed, not Movement Speed. You can't blitz somewhat with reflex speed
Give an example of people whose speed he is in par with that can do things like this.

Regardless if he can't harm an Eternal Sailor Senshi (whom can tank Attacks on the level of the Big Bang by Scaling) then he will eventually just run out of stamina. Plus Pluto and Saturn have defensive haxes even in Eternal Form keeping them from being blitzed (Pluto technically exists outside of spacetime and Saturn Spirit can auto-reincarnate and age up+awaken herself).

Lambda Senshi speed doesn't even matter because they can use the power of the Golden Crystal to gain information from the future selves, knowing exactly what to do. Lambdas Outclass him in every way.


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## Agent9149 (Mar 26, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> How do you figure?
> 
> 
> They have the Lambda Power. Ergo they are some of the strongest fighters in Sailor Moon. Enough to solo DBS.
> ...



They said that everything that enters the cauldron melts into it, so when Sailor Moon entered it she became one with it like the rest of the star crystals. Her physical form was destroyed she became into her perfect form, the Lambda form, which is essentially abstract.

They don't even need to be in the lamda forms to solo dbz, their hax alones are beyond incredible. 



almanar said:


> His speed is Massively FTL+ (faster than Babylon, capable of dodging lasers than can travel the diameter of the Milky Way Galaxy in under one-thirtieth of a second, and has speed on par with people who can do things like this, at least hundreds of trillions of times the speed of light)
> In conclusion if sailor senshi atk speed and accuracy, below that. So all hax their have was futile, because Laharl dodge it for sure.



Universal time stopping isn't something you can dodge. And in their lamdba forms they have universal power and can regenerate themselves at will. 

And his speed is around the same levels. The senshi flew from outside the milkway to it's center in under a second.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 26, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> The senshi flew from outside the milkway to it's center in under a second.


I wish....I'm sorry but where does it say they were outside the Galaxy? Both Usagi+Kakyuu+Starlights and Chibiusa+Quartet were traveling from the Sol System


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## Agent9149 (Mar 26, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> I wish....I'm sorry but where does it say they were outside the Galaxy? Both Usagi+Kakyuu+Starlights and Chibiusa+Quartet were traveling from the Sol System



The scan shows it. They're outside the galaxy and then they fly to the center. Kakyuu even points to it. You can't point at the galaxy if you're inside of it. 




*Spoiler*: __


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## Imperator100 (Mar 26, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> The scan shows it. They're outside the galaxy and then they fly to the center. Kakyuu even points to it. You can't point at the galaxy if you're inside of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's not the galaxy she was pointing out, just the galactic center.


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## Agent9149 (Mar 26, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> That's not the galaxy she was pointing out, just the galactic center.



She was pointing to the center, but the whole structure has to be the galaxy. You can't see the top of the galactic center from inside the galaxy nor is the structure that visible from the solar system.. They'd have to be floating from above. You can even make out of the spiral arms of the galaxy.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 26, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> She was pointing to the center, but the whole structure has to be the galaxy. You can't see the top of the galactic center from inside the galaxy nor is the structure that visible from the solar system.. They'd have to be floating from above. You can even make out of the spiral arms of the galaxy.



That's artistic representation. They were in the Sol System at the time and it never said they left.


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## Agent9149 (Mar 26, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> That's artistic representation. They were in the Sol System at the time and it never said they left.



They don't need to say they left. It's how the chapter starts off, and last chapter ends with them inside Pluto's castle. 

It's logical to say they left pluto's castle and flew out into deep space so that Kakyuu can show Sailor Moon the Center.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 26, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> They don't need to say they left. It's how the chapter starts off, and last chapter ends with them inside Pluto's castle.
> 
> It's logical to say they left pluto's castle and flew out into deep space so that Kakyuu can show Sailor Moon the Center.



Why on Earth would they go further away from the GC if that's what Kakyuu was showing her?


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## Agent9149 (Mar 26, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> Why on Earth would they go further away from the GC if that's what Kakyuu was showing her?



It makes better artwork. Plus, their senshi, it's not really far way for them since their incredibly fast.


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## God Movement (Mar 26, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> They have the Lambda Power. Ergo they are some of the strongest fighters in Sailor Moon. *Enough to solo DBS.*



No-one in Sailor Moon can beat ANY God Tier in DBS. In fact, it isn't even a contest since SM isn't universe level like you keep claiming. You're just about the only person who believes this. Stop spreading misinformation. This is like the second coming of Lionel at this point.


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## Nevermind (Mar 26, 2016)

He cannot solo.

Quite frankly I'm suspicious about many of these RPG game feats to start with.


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## God Movement (Mar 26, 2016)

Due to the in-game mechanics? I'm 50/50 on that myself.


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## almanar (Mar 26, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> How fast is Babylon?
> Dodging=Reflex Speed, not Movement Speed. You can't blitz somewhat with reflex speed
> Give an example of people whose speed he is in par with that can do things like this.
> 
> Regardless if he can't harm an Eternal Sailor Senshi (whom can tank Attacks on the level of the Big Bang by Scaling) then he will eventually just run out of stamina. Plus Pluto and Saturn have defensive haxes even in Eternal Form keeping them from being blitzed



Laharl attack level is Universe level (Can defeat many enemies of galactic power at once, superior to Darkdeath Evilmans, and can recreate the Big Bang by punching. Potentially capable of matching any of the other main Overlords, including Mao, who destroyed all of the known universe, including Celestia and the Netherworld. 

Thats mean Laharl atk speed and accuracy was reach universe level. With this he can cancel the senshi skill before they can use magic, hax, etc . Iam sure they need more time to execute their skill, and Laharl skill hit them first because Laharl almost doesn't need time to execute all his skills


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## Nevermind (Mar 26, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Due to the in-game mechanics? I'm 50/50 on that myself.



Yeah. We need to be careful with how we treat these attack sequences in RPG battles.


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## Qinglong (Mar 26, 2016)

As I said before on the topic it's mostly due to statements and in game endings which corroborate with the game sequences

That said IIRC in Zettai Hero Project Unlosing Ranger is noted to be far weaker than Laharl (although iirc this is post game as well)

And yes, the game sequence attacks applies mostly to his attack speed.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 26, 2016)

God Movement said:


> No-one in Sailor Moon can beat ANY God Tier in DBS


Lol. There are over a dozen characters that can solo even with DBZ Speed Upgrade due to Lambda Power Allowing one to Avoid Blitzing and Chaos's Spacetime Warping allowing one to avoid blitzing. Chaos and Lambda Senshi are both Universal with way more and better hax.




> . In fact, it isn't even a contest since SM isn't universe level like you keep claiming.


We argued this and you gave up. Don't pretend like you actually had a point. Eternal Senshi are already in the Lower-Range Universe/Multi-Galactic. Lambda Senshi and Chaos are full on-Universal, more so then anything seen in DBS (control of all spacetime as opposed to just destroying the matter of spacetime). They are comparable to better in DC/Durability and have far better hax. Speed is irreleant due to chaos Spacetime warping and Lambda Spacetime Transcendence. There are over a dozen characters that solo DBS including:
Usagi (Lambda, Neo-Queen Serenity, and Sailor Cosmos)
Chaos (Base or Sailor Chaos)
Death Phantom (....Probably, not as sure about this one but it can avoid being blitzed due to it's defensive haxes and it has the hax to win)
Ami (Lambda)
Rei (Lambda)
Makato (Lambda)
Minako (Lambda)
Mamoru (Lambda or King Endymioni)
Haruka (Lambda)
Michiru (Lambda)
Setsuna (Lambda)
Chibiusa (Lambda)
Hotaru (Lambda)




> You're just about the only person who believes this.


Popularity Fallacy. The amount of people who believe something is not an argument for why it's right.

This is also wrong. While many people on English-Speaking forums have a misconception of SM's power, this is because of an inaccurate first translation and spotty power analysis (before I came here it was widely believed that most of the Senshi didn't even get scaling to Moon's FIRST FORM). Despite the fact that in most arcs they aren't drastically behind Moon in power. On Japanese-Speaking Forums it is well known that many characters in SM solo DBS. Hell I am relatively on the side of Dragon Ball comparatively. On 2ch, people will still argue that Queen Metallia, Pharaoh 90, Queen Nehelenia, Queen Serenity, Chronos, and Guardian Cosmos can still solo DBS whereas I would say that by this DBS can beat them. 

Even on this forum my Sailor Moon related stuff is getting more and more support. Look at my blog Post "Eternal Henshin". Hell, look at the blog you tried to argue against and lost to me through tacit concession about "Universal Sailor Moon" and you'll see that before you got there everyone was agreeing with me. Not only is this irrelevant but if I'm personally honest it seems like a bit of a projection of your own insecurities that you may be on the unpopular side.

Let this argument go. It doesn't matter how "popular" an argument is.




> Stop spreading misinformation.


Dat Hypocrisy.



> This is like the second coming of Lionel at this point.


Petty insults are no replacement for arguments. Especially when you tried to argue this exact thing already and GAVE UP



almanar said:


> Laharl attack level is Universe level (Can defeat many enemies of galactic power at once, superior to Darkdeath Evilmans, and can recreate the Big Bang by punching. Potentially capable of matching any of the other main Overlords, including Mao, who destroyed all of the known universe, including Celestia and the Netherworld.


Defeating lots of  Galactic Opponents is not Universal Level. It's Galactic+
How strong is Darkdeath Evilmans?
Big Bang is Low-Range Universal but the Eternal Senshi can take that.
I'll assume for the moment he is universal though.



> Thats mean Laharl atk speed and accuracy was reach universe level. With this he can cancel the senshi skill before they can use magic, hax, etc . Iam sure they need more time to execute their skill, and Laharl skill hit them first because Laharl almost doesn't need time to execute all his skills


That's not really how speed works. Does he have speed feats about their speed feats or not. Saying that it takes him like no time to execute an ask is entirely a statement of relative power and doesn't tell me how fast he is from a neutral standpoint.

So let's go with an assumption of speed equal for a second, can any of the individual senshi win? This is assuming Eternal Senshi versus a Full Universal Laharl. Lambda Forms just outright win. Lower Forms perform similarly if speed is equal:

Laharl vs. Mercury: Assuming he is full universal, Mercury can't really harm him directly unless Lambda Ami. Mercury can throw him into another dimension with Hyperspatial Area Emerge. Possible Victory if he can't travel through dimensions.

Laharl vs. Mars: Mars can destroy the space he is existing in with her Mystic Ofuda. Comes down to who strikes first, that said if speed is equal then I will admit he's probably likes to hit first before she uses the Ofuda since usually it's her weakest attack. With Prior Knowledge could go to Mars though

Laharl vs. Jupiter: Assuming he is full univesal, Jupiter can't really harm him directly unless Lambda Makato. Win for Laharl unless Lambda Makato

Laharl vs. Venus: Venus has the Venus Sulfer Smoke which replicates the acidic atmosphere of Venus, which while I don't know the chemistry I'm guessing is kinda durability-ignoring...that said Laharl can avoid it by going into space since the smoke obviously won't go out of atmosphere. At the end of Codename: Sailor V, she showed energy blasts that erased a person's physical body from existence which could work. She also has Love Crescent Shower which can melt away evil-beings (don't know if Laharl is evil.) In general she has matter manipulation and might be able to.  It's an arguable fight, if speed is equal. She also can use Mystic Ofuda like Rei but she never showed the same spatial destruction ability.

Laharl vs Chibi-Moon: Chibi-Moon can hypnotize Laharl with Luna-P or dimension-shatter him with Moon Gorgeous Meditation.  

Laharl vs. Uranus: Uranus has some kind of anti-magic hax going given that her World Shaking reversed the Henshin Magic and sent the Guardian Senshi back to civilian forms....it depends if Laharl's Power Source is Magic or Not.

Laharl vs. Neptune: Neptune can paralyze him with her violin but I don't know if she can really put him down.

Laharl vs. Pluto: Pluto normally exists in the gap between space and time (as it was put in the Manga) so speedblitzing wouldn't really help regardless. Anyway even if Laharl is Full Universal, Pluto can send him to the end of the universe or into a time purgatory which ignores durabiltiy and reduces someone to a "ghost in time".

Laharl vs. Saturn: Laharl can kill Saturn...but the Saturn Spirit will simply reincarnate and awaken a new self. As such speedblitz is alot harder. Hotaru, the current manifestation of the Saturn Spirit, can also exist and fight entirely on the Astral/Soul Plane. While their she has Soul Attacks that ignore conventional durability (Hotaru vs Mistress 9). In her transformed Sailor Saturn state she has Death Reborn Revolution which paralyzes a target and drain the energy which she could just do until Laharl is dead. She also as the power of death which is seemingly some kind of life-destroying hax (lifewiped a solar system without destroying any of the actual planets).

So assuming Laharl is Full Universal and even in speed with the Senshi and the Senshi are in their Eternal Forms:
Likely wins against Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, and Neptune
Possibly wins against Venus
Loses against Chibi-Moon, Saturn, and Pluto
Loses to Uranus if his powers are magic, wins if not.


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## God Movement (Mar 26, 2016)

I stopped because you literally will not _allow_ yourself to be convinced. That doesn't mean that you're _correct_.

Your evidence consists of no _actual_ evidence. Your Sailor Moon is equivalent to Lionel's GetBackers.


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## Nevermind (Mar 26, 2016)




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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 26, 2016)

Anyway we take game feats from Disgaea if they line up with what we know about a characters power. Laharl destroyed every star in the sky and Etna laughed at him because even a basic ass demon could do that. Overlords being Galaxy level from Evilman's ray, which is his strongest attack, lines up with this. 

Vs battles wiki has them at universe level just because one of the fist skills is named big bang, but thats a weapon  skill so that gets taken with a grain of salt because anyone can use them. Character specific skills should be perfectly canon though.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 26, 2016)

God Movement said:


> I stopped because you literally will not _allow_ yourself to be convinced. That doesn't mean that you're _correct_.


....Insulting me gets you no closer to any point. 



> Your evidence consists of no _actual_ evidence.


I showed you evidence. I can show it to you again. The problem is clearly you are clinging to outdated notions. If you want I will argue it again. However if you give up AGAIN, then you have no claim at all. You can't insist you are right and then say you don't have to argue it because the other side is just stubborn. That is not how debate works. That is a fallacy.



> Your Sailor Moon is equivalent to Lionel's GetBackers.


To quote:


> Your evidence consists of no _actual_ evidence.


That applies here to you. You are now essentially relying on ad hominems.

For the general good of the viewers at home, would you like me to again present the clear evidence to my argument and watch GM flail about angrily trying to dismiss something that is completely clear?



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Anyway we take game feats from Disgaea if they line up with what we know about a characters power. Laharl destroyed every star in the sky and Etna laughed at him because even a basic ass demon could do that. Overlords being Galaxy level from Evilman's ray, which is his strongest attack, lines up with this.
> 
> Vs battles wiki has them at universe level just because one of the fist skills is named big bang, but thats a weapon  skill so that gets taken with a grain of salt because anyone can use them. Character specific skills should be perfectly canon though.


So...he's Galaxy Level? Like Super Sailor Senshi Level?


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## Imperator100 (Mar 26, 2016)

God Movement said:


> I know what your evidence IS. I'm saying that it _isn't_ evidence.



You tried to argue it, and then you stopped. As I said before, you don't get to say "I am right but I'm not arguing it because the other side is just stubborn". That is a fallacy. That is not how debate works. Either agree and try and post an argument my clear evidence (which I will deconstruct again and show you why you are wrong again. OR stop making the claim. You can't make a claim and then not have the burden of proof. I made a claim and showed evidence. You need to make a claim that my evidence is not good and then give reasoning, which you can't since there is no reasoning against it, only gut impulses. So which it will be:

A: Actually try and present an argument against my clear evidence (which will fail AGAIN because you have literally no argument for your side)
B: Accept that I am right
C: Leave

Those are the only options. You can't say you are right, and then NOT present evidence. That's not how debate works.


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## God Movement (Mar 26, 2016)

Your evidence consists of unsubstantiated statements and really, really generous interpretation of said statements. There's nothing for me to rebuttal. Its your beliefs of take statements at face-value with no evidence against my belief of solid evidence and visual proof or GTFO. And lastly, you have poor reading comprehension. So there's that too.


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## Vivi Ornitier (Mar 26, 2016)




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## Agent9149 (Mar 26, 2016)

God Movement said:


> No-one in Sailor Moon can beat ANY God Tier in DBS. In fact, it isn't even a contest since SM isn't universe level like you keep claiming. You're just about the only person who believes this. Stop spreading misinformation. This is like the second coming of Lionel at this point.



Anyone with the lambda force is universal. The manga clearly says it can reset and sustain the cosmos.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 26, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Your evidence consists of unsubstantiated statements and really, really generous interpretation of said statements. There's nothing for me to rebuttal. Its your beliefs of take statements at face-value with no evidence against my belief of solid evidence and visual proof or GTFO. And lastly, you have poor reading comprehension. So there's that too.



Saying this doesn't make it magically true. Sorry.

 Fine. For the general purposes of this thread and to prove I am not debating in poor faith I will present my argument yet again. If GM does not present an actual argument, then I must sadly conclude he is debating in bad faith. 

So, let's get into what makes the Sailor Senshi powerful in terms of raw stats.

Base Sailor Senshi: Low Galactic.
At the end of the Second Arc Sailor Moon and Sailor Chibi-Moon destroy Death Phantom, a "Planet" Big enough to absorb the entire Solar System. This was calced to being Likely in the Low Galactic Range and would be that high anyway just given the sheer size of said planet from any logical standpoint:
Calc: 

This gets scaled to the Guardian Senshi. At the end of the Second Arc Queen Serenity grants the Guardian Senshi the abilities to fight alongside Sailor Moon "with ease." In the third arc they are shown as being comparable to Sailor Moon. If Want I can get scaling evidence as well.

Super Sailor Senshi: Galactic
Pharaoh 90 was created a Galactic-Scale Spacetime Disruption and moving a Galaxy at FTL Speeds. It was scared of the power of Super Sailor Moon. Likewise, the Casual Emanation of Super Sailor Moon was stated to be Tens of Thousands of times Stronger then the Taioran Crystal at it's Peak which was the power of an entire Galaxy (The Tau Nebula.). The Taioran Crystal even very diminished by time was still stronger then Sailor Moon's Third Arc Attack which was in the level of KiloFoe to MegaFoe.

Eternal Sailor Senshi: Big Bang Level: 
The Silver Crystal is supported as having enough energy within it to create all the energy of a universe. This was what it did in the far past and what Chaos planned to use it for. Eternal Sailor Moon for her very first attack used all the power of all the Sailor Crystals of the Sol System including the Silver Crystal, the Silver Crystal of the Future, and the Golden Crystal.

Lambda Senshi: Full Universal: 
The Lambda Power is stated by Sailor Cosmos, as in the Big Good of the SM Universe, the user of the thing, the person more likely then any other to know what it does, to be the thing that restores and maintains EVERYTHING as the static "Cosmos" which literally is a synonym for universe.

There is nothing indirect or ambiguous about these statements. These are statements not just of what something can do, but what they have done, and what they are doing. These are statements by characters who know what they are talking about and completely direct. GM is clinging to the notion that these very clear statements are somehow not evidence, which essentially means we can't use any statements, like, ever. I guess that means no powerscaling unless we visually see it. I guess Beerus and Goku WEREN'T threatening the universe. After all we don't SEE them threaten the universe, just break some planets and stars and are TOLD they are threatening the universe. I guess Anti-Monitor really wasn't a threat to the multiverse, after all we don't see him consuming the entire multiverse. I guess the one Above All isn't that powerful. After all we have seen nothing that impressive from him. 

There is nothing wrong with using statements and if you want to say these statements are not trustworthy then you have sorely failed.

Scans for anything I have said on request.


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## God Movement (Mar 26, 2016)

^ You don't have to fillerbuster me. I do not buy it. There are no feats which would make me think your interpretation of the material is valid. And it is down to interpretation.

The Lambda power "restores everything to the static 'cosmos'" is all that was said. The rest you made up. Extremely vague wording which again, can be spun and whatever you want to get out of it is down to very, very generous interpretation.


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 26, 2016)

Tbh why not make a thread about this where you two can give arguments about this reasonably at least instead flinging shit at each otherjust saying.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 26, 2016)

God Movement said:


> ^ You don't have to fillerbuster me. I do not buy it. There are no feats which would make me think your interpretation of the material is valid.


My "interpretation" is what is real. I show evidence. You do not. Go over and actually argue it, accept it, or leave.



> And it is down to interpretation.


It's really not. IT is clear-cut. These things exist. You have no argument against them. You have no evidence.



> The Lambda power "restores everything to the static 'cosmos'" is all that was said.


That and Chaos warping to the far reaches of spacetime which the Lambda Restored.



> The rest you made up.


That is a serious accusation. Name one claim that I "made up". Name anything I said above and I will you show scans of it. 



> Extremely vague wording


You keep saying this and keep being wrong. There is nothing vague about it. Tell me what is vague about the sentence. it restores everything to the static cosmos. The Cosmos....is the universe. That is literally what it means. There is NOTHING vague about it. Give a reason why it's vague or stop saying this.



> which again, can be spun


No, it really can't be. If it could you would have given some alternate explanation for what the sentence means instead of it meaning exactly what it says.



> and whatever you want to get out of it is down to very, very generous interpretation.


No it's not. What I said is literally what it is saying. There is no interpretation here. This is EXTREMELY clear. It restored everything, to the far reaches of spacetime Chaos was warping, to the static "Universe". AKA Cosmos. It restored the universe. It is literally the words of the manga you are arguing against. If you want to claim otherwise, tell me what the sentence is REALLY supposed to mean and watch as how the sentence no longer makes sense either as a sentence or in the context of the universe.

Also, providing amble explanation is somehow now "filibustering"


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## Xhominid (Mar 26, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Anyway we take game feats from Disgaea if they line up with what we know about a characters power. Laharl destroyed every star in the sky and Etna laughed at him because even a basic ass demon could do that. Overlords being Galaxy level from Evilman's ray, which is his strongest attack, lines up with this.
> 
> Vs battles wiki has them at universe level just because one of the fist skills is named big bang, but thats a weapon  skill so that gets taken with a grain of salt because anyone can use them. Character specific skills should be perfectly canon though.



I feel like this is where people pretty much screw up massively at...

It's not like Laharl has absolutely no feats at all, just that people seem to not really dig hard enough to try and then seem to go over itself in terms of gameplay.

I'll give an example: In the Tyrant Valvatorez DLC, other than Gameplay there was nothing that really showed how powerful Valatorez really was in his DLC past a few things:
1. Fenrich purposefully lead Valvatorez to plenty of enemies on their path even before the battles themselves after he met Valvatorez but before he went back to the Party Leader to take him out.
2. Fenrich was POISONING Valvatorez also during that time with absolutely no effect
3. It had to take Valvatorez getting shot with multiple silver bullets just IN GAMEPLAY to have him be poison for awhile(and storywise it barely seemed to actually phase him so it was a virtual gameplay mechanic since he's so broken in the DLC)
4. Even like this, he was able to destroy a roof of a building that was reinforced specifically AGAINST Overlord level Demons attacking it.

Laharl's big examples isn't just gameplay though:
1. Early in the game, Laharl was clearly talking about effecting Earth on a grand scale when he was planning on terrorizing humanity. Getting kids hooked on games is mainly a joke but some of the others seems well within his power to do
2. One of his biggest moments that is cited is that during the penultimate chapter, he took out 2 million futuristic human spaceships...while holding back
3. He canonically defeats Baal when his father couldn't
4. Even when beaten in non-standard game over cutscenes, he still easily have enough power to destroy a planet.

I'm pretty sure I'm missing a few feats here and there, but this is not counting gameplay feats...and we kinda have to count those...atleast for the weapons they are good at as well as the feat scaling from other characters.

Postgame...I can see where the confusion comes in from but again as someone else says they should be taken from a case by case basis as well as looking at the characters themselves(I remember someone pointing out that Valvatorez was struggling against Priere only to match up with Zetta...but looking at that cutscene myself, it was the other party members that was freaking out AND it was mainly based on the DLC, not the Postilude itself because Pram nor Gig is also defeated either but even then, it's never Valvatorez himself that freaks out)

Honestly, I would actually say that the DLC itself should be given a grain of salt at times(but not to the point where we should pretend it's non-canon) while the Postilude(aka the main endgame story) should be seen as more canonical.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 26, 2016)

> So if the Silver Crystal itself is not solely responsible for the universe's energy creation (it's the Galaxy Cauldron which is responsible for the creation and recycling of Star Seeds which then grow into celestial bodies - and considering all Star Seeds are reborn here it'd be more appropriate to assume that through the combination of the Cauldron and the crystals which are consistently sent here and reborn from here complete birth of the universe through the Cauldron can occur).


This is already wrong. The GC creates STAR SEEDS as it were but the energy of the universe which said Star Seeds use to turn into their Celestial Bodies are from the existing energy of the universe created by the Silver Crystal. We know this to be true because Chaos and Galaxia already had control of the Galaxy Cauldron but still needed the Silver Crystal to do any actual creation, Chaos explicitly going to use it to create a new universe.



> The Silver Crystal has been stated to be "the source of all energy [you tend to insert the words in-the-universe here to suite your agenda]"


Stop. Stop. Stop. What? First off, all energy, is not given a qualifier like "in the Solar System" or "in the Galaxy". Therefore all energy means by default all energy. If you want to show it doesn't mean All energy....period....you need a qualifier to show that it means all energy in a set of energy rather then all energy period. This is particularly true as Chaos also stated that it was going to use the Silver Crystal to create a new universe.



> (which in a vacuum only implies it to have infinite energy; an endless pool of energy that can be drawn upon)


Not true! Standard Assumption is that the Sailor Moon Universe is like our own except where  stated otherwise. In the Sailor Moon Universe the Silver Crystal created all energy from the Galaxy Cauldron which obviously isn't energy and thus created energy equal to the mass-energy of our universe.



> there is insufficient proof here/a lack of a credible link to the Silver Crystal having Big Bang level intensity as an independent resource which is the very essence of your argument.


There is actually not insufficient proof. There is perfectly sufficient proof. Here we see Chaos directly state that with the Silver Crystal was going to form a new universe:



> It being the "source of all energy" does not necessarily imply universal intensity in the confines of fiction.


It actually does in the particular case since being the source of all energy without qualifier in Sailor Moon is very noticably Big Bang Level. Note this isn't actually "Full Universal" as it were since a "Big Bang" as it were really wouldn't destroy the universe, due to the expansion of spacetime etc. Full universal is Lambda Level.



> Your entire argument relies on this single statement which in of itself is not sufficient proof, or proof at all.


Not only does that statement have more then sufficient proof but you have failed to recognize Chaos's similar statement.



> This is where it falls apart: you have failed time and time again to prove the intensity of the energy of the Silver Crystal that is required for the statement of "the source of all energy/infinite energy" to hold any scientific weight. And no, her using all of the energy of the Silver Crystal does not count as proof either and that's besides the fact that using infinite % of infinite energy makes no sense whatsoever scientifically so trying to go the physics route with it is dubious at best. Infinite energy fictionally means inextinguishable amounts of energy (the Silver Crystal can produce energy without end), nothing more, nothing less unless you make the necessary links to take it one step further.


WHAT?! The Big Bang is not "infinite energy" nor have I ever claimed that the Silver Crystal produced infinite energy. The Mass-Energy of the Observable Universe is 4e69 Joules. The Silver Crystal created all energy, which was stated, and as stated by Chaos could create the energy of a new universe AS WELL. Her using all the power of the Silver Crystal is very clear evidence that she was using more energy then the Crystal has produced which was of Big Bang Level Intensity.



> Infinite energy in reality however implies ALL of the energy in existence that is spread throughout the universe summed together.


Please Understand this as I have tried to accentuate this point: I HAVE NOT, NOR HAVE I EVER, CLAIMED THE SILVER CRYSTAL WAS USING LITERALLY INFINITE ENERGY. The Silver Crystal created the mass energy of the universe while inside the Galaxy Cauldron, while in a completely dormant state. Usagi was able to harness all the dormant power of the Silver Crystal at once.  This energy is equal to the mass-energy of the universe, which for the observable universe is 4e69 Joules.



> For starters, containing the mass-energy of the universe implies that the mass-energy of the actual universe is zero (zero-energy hypothesis aside, but you get what I mean), if you want to take the statement literally (and by this I mean scientifically).


In what sense? The Silver Crystal contains a very high but finite amount of energy so large that it can create the energy of a new universe as stated by Chaos. It is not infinite nor is it zero. The Silver Crystal has the physics-defying ability to Create Energy from Nothing. That is almost impossible to dispute. The energy it created before was the mass-energy of the observable universe, which is estimated at 4e69 Joules.



> This is not a statement that should ever be taken at scientific face-value because of the IMPLICATIONS. You'd need feats or actual concrete narrator statements to reinforce this idea. I will continue to refer to my Android #17 and #18 example, as they are also stated to have endless or infinite energies. There's no two ways about this statement, it implies infinite energy. Agreed?


Again: I am not saying the Silver Crystal has INFINITE energy. I am saying it has a very high but finite amount which is the amount that exists in the Sailor Moon Universe, which by equivalency is the amount in our observable universe.



> Big Bang level energy perhaps?


...YES!!! That is what I have been constantly saying. I have not once said that the Silver Crystal's Power is Full Universal, just that's it's Lower-Scale Universal/Multi-Galactic (AKA Big Bang Level)



> Or is there an actual difference in fictional worlds in regards to how any statement of "infinite energy" should be approached?


I am not saying the Silver Crystal's Power is literally Infinite! That's the Cosmos Crystal which restores the entire universe (infinite). The Silver Crystal is not the Cosmos Crystal, it's far weaker. The Cosmos Crystal is an entirely separate thing and was stated to restore everything to the static cosmos. Including to the far reaches of space-time that Chaos was warping.



> Or scientific reinforcement to literally take it to mean Total Energy = 4x10^69J (which is exactly what you are doing). I don't buy it.


You write a big long thing saying the Silver Crystal is not infinite, which I have not said once, and then you say this with no backing. It created and can create the mass-energy of a universe (4e69 Joules for an observable universe). What about that is difficult to understand? What about that do you not buy? This whole thing has been a diatribe of why the Silver Crystal can't be infinite, which I didn't say and then you say won't buy the actual energy of the thing without any reason. WHAT? 



> For this statement to hold weight, you would need to provide in-verse proof that this energy in application is Big Bang level.


I did. I showed that the Silver Crystal did and can create the mass-energy of an observable universe (4e69 Joules). This is evident from the statements of both Beryl and Chaos. Beryl stating that it has created "all energy" without any qualifier mind you and Chaos stating that with it will have the capacity to create a form a new universe.  Usagi at the end of the fourth arc, draws out all the power of the Silver Crystal. There is nothing more that needs to be shown to show that it is Big Bang Level Energy.



> Lastly, stop stating EoS Senshi all acquired the Lambda Power. They did not:


Oh this old joke again.



> "We wanted to be with you! But you continued to call out to us, to draw on our powers ...and we thank you for that, Usagi!" Nowhere does it state they received the same powers Sailor Cosmos did, which again requires ALL of the Sailor Crystals. The idea that you keep claiming this is mind boggling. This is something the other Senshi simply do not have. This is probably the worst piece of misinformation you have attempted to spread thus far.


That is a mistranslation. Have you read either the Japanese or the latest English Edition (Kazenshuu)? Miss Dream, while I have used her translation due to convince is not a reliable translator:


You know what it says in the Latest English Translation and in the original Japanese? They say that they absorbed power from Usagi. What power was that? Well it seems evident that it's Lambda Power. You'll notice they are IN THE GALAXY CAULDRON! That's not possible for them normally, especially not in their civilian states.
Guardian Cosmos commends their incredible power:


And she says that in the Cauldron they have all attained their "perfected forms" which is their Lambda Forms:


The same Guardian Cosmos actually has some control of the Lambda Power, able to send people through spacetime at will:


As well as survive in the Galaxy Cauldron.

It is Self-Evident, I would go so far to say, that they clearly absorbed the Lambda Power given that Makato stated they absorbed power from Usagi, and they are shown to be able to survive in the Galaxy Cauldron in their Perfected Heavenly Forms and impress Guardian Cosmos, the protector of the Lambda Power itself.

Their is also the fact that you tried and failed to argue against which is that Chibiusa can travel through spacetime without the spacetime key, evidencing that she has control of the Pluto Power:


This is, despite your claims, obviously not Guardian Cosmos send Chibiusa because Guardian Cosmos has no reason to teleport Chibisua repeatable when she could just teleport them at the same time, especially as the Lambda Power allows one to send in multiple objects to different places in space-time simultaneously (as evidenced by when it sent the Star Seeds of all the destroyed Celestial Bodies to their proper places in spacetime)

You have shown a misinterpretation of both my argument and the text.

EDIT: Also just noticed, your scan does not actually say that Star Seeds grow into celestial bodies. Your scans are telling of a mistranslation, before we continue much further I would like confirmation you have at least read an accurate version such as the latest English one, the Kazenshuu. If not you will be relying entirely on a mistranslated work.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 26, 2016)

Anyway, I won't be able to respond to any response for a while. It's 2:30 AM And I am flying back to America soon....


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## Keollyn (Mar 26, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> So assuming Laharl is Full Universal and even in speed with the Senshi and the Senshi are in their Eternal Forms:
> Likely wins against Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, and Neptune
> Possibly wins against Venus
> Loses against Chibi-Moon, Saturn, and Pluto
> Loses to Uranus if his powers are magic, wins if not.



There's no point debating as if he's universal. At best, Laharl's galactic, with attack speed as was said earlier.


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## Imagine (Mar 26, 2016)

Do the first Disgaea games hold up?


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## Keollyn (Mar 26, 2016)

In terms of what?


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## Imagine (Mar 26, 2016)

Quality.


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## Keollyn (Mar 26, 2016)

Well there was a port for it on PC recently, so it got a touchup graphically, and in my opinion, it still is the very best in terms of character and story.

I'll be perfectly honest, every Disgaea game story downgraded with each game. So you'll literally get a proper order but in reverse


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## Qinglong (Mar 26, 2016)

Original Storywise 1  > 2 or 3 > 4 IMO


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## Keollyn (Mar 26, 2016)

See, even Qing shares my sentiments. 

The games got better gameplay wise, but the story kept getting worse (though only from each game, they aren't bad in their own right)


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## Piecesis (Mar 26, 2016)

Imagine pls, that's Disgaea 5, not 4


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## Imagine (Mar 26, 2016)

Oh


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 26, 2016)

IMO Disgaea 3 postgame has the worst gameplay. DD2 had an, okay story? Xenolith was cool


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## Xhominid (Mar 26, 2016)

Meh, I feel like all the stories aren't really all that bad nor was Disgaea 1's was that good.

They all do have their set of favorable characters and others...not so much(Twink, Fuka...in certain cases).

I'm in the minority of thinking all the main characters are great in their own ways:

Laharl being an absolutely selfish brat who reveled in being evil because of something in the past isn't 100% unique but the fact of everything about how it winded down made him pretty unique.

And I can see why people don't really like Adell after Laharl because unlike Laharl, Adell is a Straight and Arrow Hero with a Blood Knight complex(more like a Heroic and less blood thirsty Kenpachi) but I felt that it was less of him being the main character and more of him being a co-op with Rozalin(if anything, it's more like the reverse situation of you playing Flonne and then having Laharl a few seconds later)

Since I haven't played 3, I have no clue about Mao

And Valvatorez is pretty much the absolute epitome of the wackiness of Disgaea. He's pretty much a hardworking dork with the guise of being once one of the strongest beings in the series. 

Haven't played 5 either so...

But pretty much, the gameplay has improved dramatically and the postgame isn't all that bad but it's still a grind regardless.


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## Keollyn (Mar 26, 2016)

I dunno, the Red Moon episode smashes pretty much every other attempt at making you feel for the main, and shows Laharl has a little more going for him. Plus its ending was much stronger, depending on how you felt about Flonne/Laharl

Only 2 seemed to compare with 1's ending.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 26, 2016)

Keollyn said:


> I dunno, the Red Moon episode smashes pretty much every other attempt at making you feel for the main, and shows Laharl has a little more going for him. Plus its ending was much stronger, depending on how you felt about Flonne/Laharl
> 
> Only 2 seemed to compare with 1's ending.



2 is where Axel started so its automatically the best


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## almanar (Mar 27, 2016)

Yeah. That is when main char 1st time at land of carnage. Face the dark sun which give ass boost to the enemy in... Turn. 

Thats why i put laharl into this thread instead Adell, Mao, valvatorez. Laharl have clearer evidence based on game, anime, cutscene. I have seen in other forum. 

Laharl vs naruto verse, result is annihilation for naruto verse. 
Laharl vs Goku, result Laharl take him down with ease.

Then i saw in this forum where Sailor moon and Saint Seiya is above 3 holy verse( Naru0ne piece of bleach) 
about SS i dont think Laharl strong enough ,too much saint which their power in Galaxy + or maybe at universe. How can i say this? There is 1 big reason

*SAINT SEIYA VERSE HAS a lot of generation because those stupid Hades cause many Holy War( i wonder how many total of gold saint they have from beginning and until now?), while SAILOR MOON VERSE doesnt have that *

Maybe another overlord like zetta, baal, true zenon or valvatorez. But since there is only very small clear evidence to approved their feats, i dont think it work.


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## Xhominid (Mar 27, 2016)

Keollyn said:


> I dunno, the Red Moon episode smashes pretty much every other attempt at making you feel for the main, and shows Laharl has a little more going for him. Plus its ending was much stronger, depending on how you felt about Flonne/Laharl
> 
> Only 2 seemed to compare with 1's ending.



Well...I can somewhat agree with that as the Red Moon Episode was powerful(actually forgot about that Episode...somehow) and I didn't forget about Laharl's development, just didn't put it on account atm.

And yeah, I really do feel that some people do toss Disgaea 2 under the bus compared to Disgaea 1 when it had a fulfilling ending(or a truly fucked up one in case of getting the Worst Ending) as well.


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## cingetorix (Mar 27, 2016)

Laharl is about a quadrillion times ftl
So he's faster than them
He is arguably base tier universal as well


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## Qinglong (Mar 27, 2016)

He isn't base tier universal in any way shape or form.


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## cingetorix (Mar 28, 2016)

> He isn't base tier universal in any way shape or form.


 What's with the Big Bang move again?
That said he's probably just multi galaxy+


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## Xhominid (Mar 28, 2016)

Daiae said:


> What's with the Big Bang move again?
> That said he's probably just multi galaxy+



Dude, Big Bang is never represented as anything close to universal in ANY Disgaea game...

Hell, I played Disgaea 2 and 4 with the best recollection and Disgaea 2's is completely inconclusive(since the explosion radius is never shown) and 4's creates a star that's only as big as Earth's which would STILL be extremely powerful...but nothing close to universal.

Laharl already has some pretty mean feats for a virtual 13 year old demon, no need to inflate him to universal...

EDIT: Besides, it's like saying Adell is a Universal character when he himself also have some ridiculous feats like tanking a bolt of lightning from Overlord Zenon(the REAL Zenon) in BOTH endings(Good Ending or Worst) and taken a Chaos Impact from a lvl 1000 Etna while he should be atleast lvl 10-20 at that point in the story...on top of what he went through just to get the ingredients to try and summon Zenon and got Rozalin in the first place...or even the fact that apparently only Overlord-class enemies in Disgaea 5 have access to Overloads and Adell has one so...

He honestly doesn't need it, he's good enough without the wank, just that like Laharl, the Sailor Moon-verse is hax central.


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## cingetorix (Mar 28, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Dude, Big Bang is never represented as anything close to universal in ANY Disgaea game...
> 
> Hell, I played Disgaea 2 and 4 with the best recollection and Disgaea 2's is completely inconclusive(since the explosion radius is never shown) and 4's creates a star that's only as big as Earth's which would STILL be extremely powerful...but nothing close to universal.
> 
> ...


heard wrong then lol
I should really stop listening to people who don't know what they're talking about.

But still, Evilman legitimately vaporizes a galaxy in his attack, doesn't he? And isn't he far below Laharl?
I did I calc for one move and it got like 20 petafoe.
Regardless, Laharl is faster than any of them but still doesn't have the power to stand much of a chance


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 28, 2016)

Yeah where the fuck did you get universal laharl from anyway? From vs battlewiki?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 28, 2016)

Daiae said:


> heard wrong then lol
> I should really stop listening to people who don't know what they're talking about.
> 
> But still, Evilman legitimately vaporizes a galaxy in his attack, doesn't he? And isn't he far below Laharl?
> ...



Weapon skills dont scale to anyone. We only use character specials since they represent the characters power and are 100% canon due to shit like Laharl busting Veldime with Overlords Wrath.

Darkdeath is way below Laharl but the only universal feat in Disgaea is from Dark Mao and hes>>>Laharl. Base Mao was equal to Laharl actually. Darkdeath Evilman's Ray did bust/outshine a galaxy so its galaxy level.


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## Qinglong (Mar 28, 2016)

I should have destroyed that wiki when I had the chance, that page is so wrong it hurts


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 28, 2016)

Yo @Qing what are the most/notable feats  in disgaea and  other nipponverse related verses?


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## Qinglong (Mar 28, 2016)

Devourlord Revya nuking 2 skyfather like beings and 2 seperate worlds at the same time apocalymon big bang style (almost)

Alexander ruining most of a galaxy after Zetta's death

Pram shaking the cosmos with her mana in her "awakened" state

Dark Mao's  and Darkdeath Evilman's stuff has already been brought up

There's some stuff from DD2 but I've lost my save data

The respect thread for Nippon Ichi/Disgaea made years ago by Zetta still has some decent stuff in it even if it's outdated


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 28, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> Devourlord Revya nuking 2 skyfather like beings and 2 seperate worlds at the same time apocalymon big bang style (almost)
> 
> Alexander ruining most of a galaxy after Zetta's death
> 
> ...



DD2 has Xenolith who can absorb tons of mana and was>Laharl till endgame. Etna's full power that was held by Xenolith was at least comparable to Laharls own too.


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## TechnoPriest (Mar 28, 2016)

Playing Disgaea 5 at the moment and on ch 9.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Void Dark can steal Overloads with his own unique Overload. He has Killia's localized timestop  and currently took an Overload that absorbs mana in the shape of spears. So he started to shoot these spears around the universe to absorb enough energy to stop time forever from what the MCs are thinking. The latter Overload steal was after he soloed one of the strongest in-setting Overlords and his sons/family in a blast that Red Magnus said shook the universe.



Playing more and Void Dark is looking to be pretty strong for a Disgaea villain.


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## almanar (Mar 29, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> I should have destroyed that wiki when I had the chance, that page is so wrong it hurts



Lol. Make Sure Laharl never know what do you up to. He will be rage in hell. Just like this:
Power of laharl: 



Or it will be more.... Dood.


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## Xhominid (Mar 29, 2016)

Daiae said:


> heard wrong then lol
> I should really stop listening to people who don't know what they're talking about.
> 
> But still, Evilman legitimately vaporizes a galaxy in his attack, doesn't he? And isn't he far below Laharl?
> ...



Yeah that's absolutely true with DarkDeath Evilman being FAR weaker than Laharl despite having a Galaxy Busting feat. 

And Laharl is no weakling in the Disgaea battlefield whatsoever(The only people who canonically made Laharl their bitch is Mao, True Zenon and Zetta. Killia and Adell is debatable on how weaker they are to Laharl and Valvatorez is up in the air but his Tyrant form should absolutely be at Zetta's tier, his weakened form is questionable despite Postgame of D4 saying he did the work).


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Yeah that's absolutely true with DarkDeath Evilman being FAR weaker than Laharl despite having a Galaxy Busting feat.
> 
> And Laharl is no weakling in the Disgaea battlefield whatsoever(The only people who canonically made Laharl their bitch is Mao, True Zenon and Zetta. Killia and Adell is debatable on how weaker they are to Laharl and Valvatorez is up in the air but his Tyrant form should absolutely be at Zetta's tier, his weakened form is questionable despite Postgame of D4 saying he did the work).



Laharl and Mao are essentially equals. I dont recall anything with Zetta but Laharl was seriously terrified of Zenon and was shitting himself. Adell and Val should be>Laharl while worst ending Adell and Tyrant Val should shit all over him. Not to mention Adell+Zenon.


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## Xhominid (Mar 29, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Laharl and Mao are essentially equals. I dont recall anything with Zetta but Laharl was seriously terrified of Zenon and was shitting himself. Adell and Val should be>Laharl while worst ending Adell and Tyrant Val should shit all over him. Not to mention Adell+Zenon.



Zenon Adell is an absolute given, I don't think that needs to be stated whatsoever.

I pretty much stated True Zenon makes Laharl her bitch pretty implicitly. 

And Zetta is canonically one of, if not, the strongest Overlord in the Disgaea and Nipponverse and again he scales above Alexander, the Overlord who destroyed a Galaxy after he kills Zetta in his bad ending and possibly kills everyone else. And also with Pram herself who again, shook the universe to generate enough power to bring Salome back to life in the best ending AS WELL as took her dad's netherworld from him when she was a BABY.

You mainly need to play Makai Kingdom as that's where Zetta's main feats are...even if he is mainly a book at that point.

So yeah, it's Weakened Valvatorez that I'm not sure how good he is.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Zenon Adell is an absolute given, I don't think that needs to be stated whatsoever.
> 
> I pretty much stated True Zenon makes Laharl her bitch pretty implicitly.
> 
> ...



Zetta is a very high tiered overlord, but people like Zenon and Tyrant Val and the like are above him. Even Base Adell should be stronger considering what he did in Disgaea 2. Zetta is above weakened Val and probably about equal to Krichevskoy from the D4 DLC. Adell stands at the top before you hit god tier people in Disgaea though and even he is above Zenon in the worst ending making him a bonafide god tier.

While they all might be above people who can blow up a galaxy for fun, we dont have any feats in between Darkdeath's galaxy feat and Mao's universal one to place them anywhere so they are stuck with Galaxy level. Im also not sure if we can scale feats from other Nippon series to Disgaea characters.


----------



## Qinglong (Mar 29, 2016)

Base Adell is not stronger than Zetta

Especially not Zetta in his True Body

I don't know where you're getting this from for Base Adell. Worst Ending Adell is Adell Possessed by True Zenon so there's no point even discussing that.


----------



## cingetorix (Mar 29, 2016)

Still, Laharl's much faster


----------



## cingetorix (Mar 29, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> I should have destroyed that wiki when I had the chance, that page is so wrong it hurts


You really should've
Mind you Supersonic Thor, slightly-superhuman Galactus would be worse things that they have


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 29, 2016)

Daiae said:


> Still, Laharl's much faster




This is why he solos


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> Base Adell is not stronger than Zetta
> 
> Especially not Zetta in his True Body
> 
> I don't know where you're getting this from for Base Adell. Worst Ending Adell is Adell Possessed by True Zenon so there's no point even discussing that.



Adell still beat Zenon in the worst ending before being possessed by her. Adell also took a bolt from Zenon in the good ending and is at least a comparable fighter to her since Rozalin should have Zenon's power after Adell hugged her. 

The seal was never put back in place, Rozalin just comes back and the game ends. Zetta being beaten by weakened Val and co shows that he isnt at the top.


----------



## Qinglong (Mar 29, 2016)

Adell canonically never defeated any overlord all the way up to Disgaea 5.

And he's not comparable to True Zenon. Rozalin did not obtain True Zenon's power in any of the sequels. It's the same thing with Dark Mao, she's back in her base form.

Zetta wasn't defeated by Weakened Valvatorez, it's the same thing with Overlord Priere. They were impressed and joined the party, you didn't actually defeat them.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> Adell canonically never defeated any overlord all the way up to Disgaea 5.
> 
> And he's not comparable to True Zenon. Rozalin did not obtain True Zenon's power in any of the sequels. It's the same thing with Dark Mao, she's back in her base form.
> 
> Zetta wasn't defeated by Weakened Valvatorez, it's the same thing with Overlord Priere. They were impressed and joined the party, you didn't actually defeat them.



Adell beat fake Zenon who, IIRC, put the seal on true Zenon and was a powerful overlord in his own right.  Dark Mao is Mao giving into his Dark power, after Zenon's seal was fully broken do we have any reason to assume that the power just went away for some reason? Its not the same situation.

Zenon clearly had Rozalin's memories and feelings which is how Adell got her to calm down and stop freaking out. Zenon and Rozalin are the same person after the ending.

Zetta admitted that he lost to Val and co in a serious fight. Valvatorez didnt beat him alone though, he said the only reason he won is because the party helped him. So Val is <Zetta with his body.


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## Qinglong (Mar 29, 2016)

Fake Zenon didn't do shit, what are you talking about? All he did was find Zenon's reincarnation and kill her mother + tribe. And True Zenon was the one who killed Fake Zenon. He wasn't even decisively stronger than Etna.

Rozalin never obtained True Zenon's power as shown in basically every sequel. Unless you want to claim Zenon is weaker than Base Mao.


In pretty much every game where you have to fight the strongest Overlord, it's Zetta. In Makai Kingdom no matter who you use to write the wish "I wish to fight the strongest Demon!" It's Zetta's true body (being possessed by Baal). 

And Adell is still nowhere near god tier in Nipponverse as a whole because Renya Satanael and Hien exist


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> Fake Zenon didn't do shit, what are you talking about? All he did was find Zenon's reincarnation and kill her mother + tribe. And True Zenon was the one who killed Fake Zenon. He wasn't even decisively stronger than Etna.
> 
> Rozalin never obtained True Zenon's power as shown in basically every sequel. Unless you want to claim Zenon is weaker than Base Mao.
> 
> ...



Do Rozalin and Adell ever actually fight seriously in any of their apperances in other games? In Disgaea 3 they wanted a job, why would they go all out and kill the people who they wanted money from?

Adell isnt a god tier overall but looking at only Disgaea characters he is very high up there. I put Zetta right below Adell. I made a tier list in the meta and never heard anything about Adell's placement being wrong.



Qinglong said:


> He wasn't even decisively stronger than Etna.


Did Etna have her full strength back by the end of the game? I cant remember.


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## Qinglong (Mar 29, 2016)

Etna was at her normal level before being summoned by Hanako

In fact I'm almost certain he basically lost that fight since he was licking his wounds in front of Adell's parents

Adell doesn't even benefit from Priere scaling canoncially and I was being generous with that. In D2 he is around her general level postgame. No longer in 4 and Priere isn't stronger than Zetta.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> Etna was at her normal level before being summoned by Hanako
> 
> In fact I'm almost certain he basically lost that fight since he was licking his wounds in front of Adell's parents
> 
> Adell doesn't even benefit from Priere scaling canoncially and I was being generous with that. In D2 he is around her general level postgame. No longer in 4 and Priere isn't stronger than Zetta.



Who lost what fight?

Where does Priere stand in Disgaea because honestly I have no fucking idea, and why is Adell around or below her level?


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## Qinglong (Mar 29, 2016)

Fake Zenon and Etna fought and she implied later she could have beaten him, later on he talks about the fight to Adell's parents

it's been years since I played D2 and I still remember that happeneing

I also seriously question Zetta being serious when Alexander pretty much states despite them fighting over hundreds of times with him trying to kill Zetta Zetta wasn't serious about it at all


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> Fake Zenon and Etna fought and she implied later she could have beaten him, later on he talks about the fight to Adell's parents
> 
> it's been years since I played D2 and I still remember that happeneing
> 
> I also seriously question Zetta being serious when Alexander pretty much states despite them fighting over hundreds of times with him trying to kill Zetta Zetta wasn't serious about it at all



D4 Zetta was in his real body and looking for a serious challenge, when he heard about Val due to Fenrich's promoting he thought he had finally found one and then lost.

I actually just rewatched the scene and Zetta seems pretty serious about his fight. He probably didnt go all out but he still lost to Val with a fraction of his true power and the party who frankly arent that impressive. Fenrich is 2nd strongest in the party and even he is way below people like Etna and even Flonne.


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## Qinglong (Mar 29, 2016)

If he refuses to truly get serious against someone who's come to kill him hundreds of times before I highly doubt he was truly serious

And at no point is Priere stronger than Zetta and they couldn't defeat her


Sounds more like he was just looking for a good fight


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> If he refuses to truly get serious against someone who's come to kill him hundreds of times before I highly doubt he was truly serious
> 
> And at no point is Priere stronger than Zetta and they couldn't defeat her
> 
> ...



He wasnt going for the kill against them but he thought they would be a good challenge for him since they had rebelled against god and won. He said he was bored and was looking for a worthy challenger since he was so strong and told them to come at him. He still lost which means they must have overpowered him at some point and had proven stronger than him as a group. He even makes Val his rival after the fight.


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## Qinglong (Mar 29, 2016)

Yet they couldn't beat a weaker overlord so that is suspect

At most that would put weakened Val on the same level as Alexander


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> Yet they couldn't beat a weaker overlord so that is suspect
> 
> At most that would put weakened Val on the same level as Alexander



Well Valvatorez did say he was super fired up during the battle with Zetta and Priere didnt beat them. Val was ready to take her on alone with his "sardine power".

Anyway DLC is a little more sketchy as canon than stuff like the postlude's since its added on content and doesnt really contribute to the story. Im more hesitant to accept it.


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## Qinglong (Mar 29, 2016)

The postlude in 2 is what implies adell is roughly equal to Priere, who is stronger than weak overlords but below people like Baal


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> The postlude in 2 is what implies adell is roughly equal to Priere, who is stronger than weak overlords but below people like Baal



Rozalin still has the seal on during that fight? It might actually take place before the end of the game then because Rozalin is still oblivious to Zenon, even if it is a postlude fight. Im not sure how Adell seems equal to her when he beats her and then chides her for not being serious in the first place.

Also in Disgaea 5 Rozalin's overload is Zenon


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## Qinglong (Mar 29, 2016)

Etna is weaker than Priere there's no way it happened before the end of the game

EDIT: assuming etna hadn't recovered her power by then


Double checked and Etna actually did kill Fake Zenon, but he revived afterwards.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> Etna is weaker than Priere there's no way it happened before the end of the game
> 
> EDIT: assuming etna hadn't recovered her power by then



Honestly I dont even know any more its confusing as fuck. Etna wasnt in the fight since Adell and Rozalin fought Priere alone but Rozalin being cluess about Zeno means that it cant be the end of the game.


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## Qinglong (Mar 29, 2016)

Forgot Etna returns to Laharl castle at the end of the game so there's no reason she would be there anyway

There were clueless over why she left in the original, that was retconned in dark hero days


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## Keollyn (Mar 29, 2016)

Daiae said:


> Still, Laharl's much faster



Unless Laharl's blinking out stars was calculated.... how?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Keollyn said:


> Unless Laharl's blinking out stars was calculated.... how?



If someone just calculated him crossing the observable universe in a day to a week im sure we could get a good lowball on it.


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## Keollyn (Mar 29, 2016)

He did that when?


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## Fang (Mar 29, 2016)

What the fuck happened in this thread


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Keollyn said:


> He did that when?



He said, at the beginning of Disgaea D2 and I quote "I destroyed every star in sight". I mean I guess we could take it as him destroying every star in a galaxy but we can see stars outside our own galaxy right?

then Etna tells him later that that is shit tier stuff because basically any demon can blow up stars and shit


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## Keollyn (Mar 29, 2016)

Fang said:


> What the fuck happened in this thread



Sailor Moon became a non-factor after GM vs. Imperator #75970 ended.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> He said, at the beginning of Disgaea D2 and I quote "I destroyed every star in sight". I mean I guess we could take it as him destroying every star in a galaxy but we can see stars outside our own galaxy right?
> 
> then Etna tells him later that that is shit tier stuff because basically any demon can blow up stars and shit



Not with the naked eye and definitely not edge the universe even with modern scopes. Best you can say is a galaxy but timeframe though


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Keollyn said:


> Not with the naked eye and definitely not edge the universe even with modern scopes. Best you can say is a galaxy but timeframe though



It was casual shit but from the dialogue it seemed like he wasnt really gone for very long. DD2 being a direct sequel too. Flonne and Etna never mention him being gone for any significant length of time and Flonne just planted her garden, which Laharl had known about beforehand since he said "you were growing these right under my nose?"


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## cingetorix (Mar 29, 2016)

Keollyn said:


> Unless Laharl's blinking out stars was calculated.... how?


The Big Bang was about a quadrillion times FTL
Evilman's beam was trillions of times FTL


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

We cant use Big Bang. It is a weapon skill and not a character one. I guess you could argue its generic of that level of power and Big Bang is the top tier weapon skill, but still.


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## Keollyn (Mar 29, 2016)

None of them scales to Laharl's speed.


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## Xhominid (Mar 29, 2016)

Can you PLEASE stop using Big Bang already? Weapon Skills seriously can't be used and even then, there's no point as the characters themselves are Base Solar System level simply by Valvatorez's paraphrasing and Disgaea D2 with Etna's remark to Laharl.

I'll hand over that Adell isn't stupid strong or powerful in the tier list, but with D5 you have to absolutely admit he's at Overlord level due to the fact he has an Overload(I think Etna has one too which makes sense with DD2 as well)

And the Hades Party does atleast make ALL the Overlords that appear through the DLC pretty powerful(i.e. Gig, Priere and Pram don't seem defeated in the least but Adell and Rozalin are defeated and stated themselves as such...but so does Laharl in the Postilude...for a second)

And finally, I agree that CURRENT Rozalin cannot be equal to True Zenon simply because of the fact Zenon reincarnated himself/herself. Even in D5 in which it seems she can transform into Zenon of her own free will, nothing shows she is as powerful as Zenon in the past.

And finally, Fake Zenon is an absolute wimp. Etna kills him, Fubuki(I think that's the Ninja girls' brother) kills him and Rozalin Zenon kills him with absolutely no effort. Using him as a gauge for anything is too funny honestly.


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 29, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Can you PLEASE stop using Big Bang already? Weapon Skills seriously can't be used and even then, there's no point as the characters themselves are Base Solar System level simply by Valvatorez's paraphrasing and Disgaea D2 with Etna's remark to Laharl.
> 
> I'll hand over that Adell isn't stupid strong or powerful in the tier list, but with D5 you have to absolutely admit he's at Overlord level due to the fact he has an Overload(I think Etna has one too which makes sense with DD2 as well)
> 
> ...



Wait what did valvatorez said?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 29, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Can you PLEASE stop using Big Bang already? Weapon Skills seriously can't be used and even then, there's no point as the characters themselves are Base Solar System level simply by Valvatorez's paraphrasing and Disgaea D2 with Etna's remark to Laharl.
> 
> I'll hand over that Adell isn't stupid strong or powerful in the tier list, but with D5 you have to absolutely admit he's at Overlord level due to the fact he has an Overload(I think Etna has one too which makes sense with DD2 as well)
> 
> ...



Fake Zenon was a legit Overlord though or at least a demon lord. Any good Demon Lord should be at Darkdeath Evilmans level.

The fact that Rozalin is Zenon's reincarnation doesnt change the fact that she made Laharl shit himself, after Laharl had already beaten someone like Baal. Rozalin's full power is Zenon. Adell is on that same general level since he kills her in one ending, stands against her in another and takes a serious attack from her to the face like it was nothing.


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## cingetorix (Mar 29, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Can you PLEASE stop using Big Bang already? Weapon Skills seriously can't be used and even then, there's no point as the characters themselves are Base Solar System level simply by Valvatorez's paraphrasing and Disgaea D2 with Etna's remark to Laharl.
> 
> I'll hand over that Adell isn't stupid strong or powerful in the tier list, but with D5 you have to absolutely admit he's at Overlord level due to the fact he has an Overload(I think Etna has one too which makes sense with DD2 as well)
> 
> ...


kk


> None of them scales to Laharl's speed.


 Why not? Laharl can dodge their attacks


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## Gig (Mar 29, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Fake Zenon was a legit Overlord though or at least a demon lord. Any good Demon Lord should be at Darkdeath Evilmans level.
> 
> The fact that Rozalin is Zenon's reincarnation doesnt change the fact that she made Laharl shit himself, after Laharl had already beaten someone like Baal. Rozalin's full power is Zenon. Adell is on that same general level since he kills her in one ending, stands against her in another and takes a serious attack from her to the face like it was nothing.



WTF am I reading there is absolutely no way in hell Fake Zenon is anywhere near Darkdeath evilman level :/

Fake Zenon was a nobody the only reason another overlord or Demon Lord didn't rock up to overthrow him was because of the reputation of Zenon and when someone finally did Etna he showed how strong he was, he got 1 shot, he has literally 0 chance against Darkdeath evilman.


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## Qinglong (Mar 29, 2016)

True Zenon reincarnated and sealed away the majority of her power because she was transforming into some kind of mindless uncontrollable monster

Until D5 there was no indication Rozalin was using any of True Zenon's power and she remained Overlord's Spawn


Again, Worst Endings are not a character's normal level of power


EDIT: Disgaea Infinite Ranks Demon God (Zenon) below Badass Overlord.


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## Gig (Mar 29, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> And the Hades Party does atleast make ALL the Overlords that appear through the DLC pretty powerful(i.e. Gig, Priere and Pram don't seem defeated in the least but Adell and Rozalin are defeated and stated themselves as such...but so does Laharl in the Postilude...for a second)


Just like to point out that Gig isn't a Overlord and he outright states he doesn't give a darn about such a pathetic title


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 29, 2016)

Speaking of gig how powerful is he plus qing you mentioned reya nuking two skyfather level entities so what are soul nomads feats?


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## Gig (Mar 29, 2016)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Speaking of gig how powerful is he plus qing you mentioned reya nuking two skyfather level entities so what are soul nomads feats?


Lujei a ghost/witch can casually fucks with space/time on a multiversal scale, Gig/Revya defeats her. (She is multiversal in that she can freely move between the nippon multiverse and has completely mastery of time/space when in a universe) 

Gig is significantly above Overlord level, when he fought Priere she tried to sucker punch him and he didn't even flinch though he did comment that it hurt, (to his surprise) he then proceeded to cripple her with 1 casual blow. 

In Disgaea D2 after fighting the party he claims that Laharl is too weak to even be his slave, and only spares them because Sicily bribes him with food. Laharl even states that he can't even fathom how powerful Gig is. 

In Disgaea 4 when you beat him (game mechanic wise) the reaper kid (forgot name) outright says that the party has no chance against Gig if he went all out.


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## Weather (Mar 30, 2016)

There is also Revya eating Gig and then Nuking two Universes and herself for the lulz.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 30, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> EDIT: Disgaea Infinite Ranks Demon God (Zenon) below Badass Overlord.



I actually saw that earlier and frankly thats bullshit. Fucking Baal is ranked above her. Disgaea Zetta didnt even have any feats with his real body till 4 and he got beaten by the party


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## Xhominid (Mar 30, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Fake Zenon was a legit Overlord though or at least a demon lord. Any good Demon Lord should be at Darkdeath Evilmans level.
> 
> The fact that Rozalin is Zenon's reincarnation doesnt change the fact that she made Laharl shit himself, after Laharl had already beaten someone like Baal. Rozalin's full power is Zenon. Adell is on that same general level since he kills her in one ending, stands against her in another and takes a serious attack from her to the face like it was nothing.



*Sigh* As others stated, Fake Zenon is not even CLOSE to legit.
Etna is atleast at the level of Demon Lord NOT counting DD2 and her latent potential...and she utterly ENDED him. Fubuki is most likely at the same level and STILL ended him. Fake Zenon is literally a nobody in the short or long run and the only reason people feared him was because of True Zenon's reputation.

And secondly...I kinda doubt it. Yes in canon she's still way above Laharl but that doesn't mean she's using her COMPLETE power as her old self, that's the point. Let me go gameplay real fast:

Overlord Zetta in Makai Kingdom is level 4000, Rozalin Zenon is level 2000 but her reincarnation REDUCES her stats as she canonically reincarnated herself into Rozalin.
And again, Worst Endings aren't really canon to begin with...so there's no point in using them past what if.



Qinglong said:


> True Zenon reincarnated and sealed away the majority of her power because she was transforming into some kind of mindless uncontrollable monster
> 
> Until D5 there was no indication Rozalin was using any of True Zenon's power and she remained Overlord's Spawn
> 
> ...



Well in truth...it makes sense.
True Zenon has reincarnated herself and massively reduced her power, Overlord Zetta pretty much GAINED his power from Salome donating all her power to him so he can realize his dream of being the strongest(and Salome is NO PUSHOVER considering she still caused Alexander to flee despite given a good chunk of her power to Zetta canonically before then)

Wouldn't be fair otherwise



Gig said:


> Just like to point out that Gig isn't a Overlord and he outright states he doesn't give a darn about such a pathetic title



I know Gig is way beyond Overlord, just used him also as an example.


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## Xhominid (Mar 30, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> I actually saw that earlier and frankly thats bullshit. Fucking Baal is ranked above her. Disgaea Zetta didnt even have any feats with his real body till 4 and he got beaten by the party



Um...Tyrant Baal is powerful enough to have caused King Krischeskoy to sacrifice his life to seal him and he is no weakling as an Overlord considering that his main sighted feats come from simply getting giddy as hell over Laharl's birth or anger and grief at his wife's death.

Not to mention that damn near everyone(except Zetta) FEARS THE FUCK OUT OF HIM. Let's not pretend Baal is a nobody okay?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 30, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Um...Tyrant Baal is powerful enough to have caused King Krischeskoy to sacrifice his life to seal him and he is no weakling as an Overlord considering that his main sighted feats come from simply getting giddy as hell over Laharl's birth or anger and grief at his wife's death.
> 
> Not to mention that damn near everyone(except Zetta) FEARS THE FUCK OUT OF HIM. Let's not pretend Baal is a nobody okay?



He's not a nobody but Laharl beats him after the first game. Thats canon. People fear the fuck out of Zenon and the dude easily murdered 1000 Demon lords and 99 overlords. Fake Zenon was the only person she didnt kill there which means he should either be a Demon Lord or an Overlord.


Levels are also at least partially game mechanics. Baal is the strongest boss in most of the games but there are characters who should shit all over him like Tyrant Val and Zetta.

Etna might be called a demon lord but she is definitely an Overlord class fighter. She can keep up with a casual Laharl at the very least and Her full power from DD2 should be at Laharl's level since it was enough to kill her if she fucked up when she got it.


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## Xhominid (Mar 30, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> He's not a nobody but Laharl beats him after the first game. Thats canon. People fear the fuck out of Zenon and the dude easily murdered 1000 Demon lords and 99 overlords. Fake Zenon was the only person she didnt kill there which means he should either be a Demon Lord or an Overlord.
> 
> 
> Levels are also at least partially game mechanics. Baal is the strongest boss in most of the games but there are characters who should shit all over him like Tyrant Val and Zetta.
> ...



Alright, let me settle this as best as I can:

1. She never fought Fake Zenon whatsoever in her original form. Fake Zenon grabbed her maybe a year or so after her reincarnation(and destroying the village where Fubuki and Yukimaru lived at in the process). The time they truly fought, Zenon-Rozalin basically ended him with no fuss. If anything, True Zenon seen the fake as an absolute non-factor at best. And again, him being an Overlord or Demon Lord makes no sense whatsoever since Etna was able to hand him his ass and kill him with no effort on her part either.

2. Last time I checked, Etna didn't KEEP the latent power she has, Xenolith kept it in fear that it would kill Etna if she had it(which it does in DD2) which means despite the fact she possibly is equal to Laharl, it would kill her if she takes it now and since DD2 is a prequel to EVERY OTHER DISGAEA after the first game, Etna is still at the level of a Demon Lord.

3. *Sigh* Let me explain Tyrant Overlord Baal
He's basically a universal level being who just like Overlord Zenon in the Worst Ending, he actually CAN move his soul into different people AND keep the insane levels of power he has always had.
And he can even use MULTIPLE BODIES WHICH ARE ALL AS STRONG AS HIS NORMAL BODY!
There's a DAMN GOOD REASON he should be above Rozalin Zenon since if anything, she was probably a few steps removed from becoming like Baal.

Again, EVERYONE takes Baal seriously, Laharl only canonically defeated Baal ONCE, nothing ever stated he ultimately destroys him or anything.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 30, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> 1. She never fought Fake Zenon whatsoever in her original form. Fake Zenon grabbed her maybe a year or so after her reincarnation(and destroying the village where Fubuki and Yukimaru lived at in the process). The time they truly fought, Zenon-Rozalin basically ended him with no fuss. If anything, True Zenon seen the fake as an absolute non-factor at best. And again, him being an Overlord or Demon Lord makes no sense whatsoever since Etna was able to hand him his ass and kill him with no effort on her part either.



I dont recall it being no effort on her part. Etna is also an overlord class fighter like I said. Fake Zenon even says she clearly has the power of an Overlord and asks why shes called a demon lord. Fake Zenon put end of game Adell and Etna on their knees with his best shit.



Xhominid said:


> 2. Last time I checked, Etna didn't KEEP the latent power she has, Xenolith kept it in fear that it would kill Etna if she had it(which it does in DD2) which means despite the fact she possibly is equal to Laharl, it would kill her if she takes it now and since DD2 is a prequel to EVERY OTHER DISGAEA after the first game, Etna is still at the level of a Demon Lord.



Last I checked in the regular ending of DD2 Etna gets the power, manages to not die, and passes out for a few days. DD2 fucked up the timeline and it messes up stuff in past games so its a mess in general.



Xhominid said:


> 3. *Sigh* Let me explain Tyrant Overlord Baal
> He's basically a universal level being who just like Overlord Zenon in the Worst Ending, he actually CAN move his soul into different people AND keep the insane levels of power he has always had.
> And he can even use MULTIPLE BODIES WHICH ARE ALL AS STRONG AS HIS NORMAL BODY!
> There's a DAMN GOOD REASON he should be above Rozalin Zenon since if anything, she was probably a few steps removed from becoming like Baal.



Baal isnt universal. He has no feats to scale him to that level. Rozalin Zenon shouldnt be weaker than the likes of Zetta and Zetta is>Baal.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 30, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Can you PLEASE stop using Big Bang already? Weapon Skills seriously can't be use-.



Shut the fuck up.


Qinglong said:


> EDIT: Disgaea Infinite Ranks Demon God (Zenon) below Badass Overlord.



Zetta is below Zenon. I can lend you my 100% file if you want to reconfirm it.


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## Qinglong (Mar 30, 2016)

Sure do so, since mine got erased. This has gone on long enough and I'm really losing interest in retreading 2.


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## Xhominid (Mar 30, 2016)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Shut the fuck up./QUOTE]
> Don't be a salty loser bro. It's not me who put that shit up and how about you tell the person who keeps on using Big Bang that too to shut the fuck up?
> 
> 
> ...



I never scaled him to universal genius, I said he's as old as the universe itself. And again, Rozalin Zenon is hard to gauge BECAUSE she reincarnated herself and sealed her power. We have no clue if Rozalin Zenon can even access her true power as her past self Overlord Zenon as all we know is that can she can turn into it of her own free will as of Disgaea 5.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 30, 2016)

Yea she sealed her power, when the seal breaks she gets that power back till, I dont know I guess the seal regenerates after a while? Rozalin can break it anytime she wants though and still remain in control.

You said 





Xhominid said:


> 3. *Sigh* Let me explain Tyrant Overlord Baal
> He's basically a universal level being who just like Overlord Zenon in the Worst Ending, he actually CAN move his soul into different people AND keep the insane levels of power he has always had.
> And he can even use MULTIPLE BODIES WHICH ARE ALL AS STRONG AS HIS NORMAL BODY!
> There's a DAMN GOOD REASON he should be above Rozalin Zenon since if anything, she was probably a few steps removed from becoming like Baal.



"universal level" that doesnt sound like you saying he was as old as the universe.


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## Xhominid (Mar 30, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Yea she sealed her power, when the seal breaks she gets that power back till, I dont know I guess the seal regenerates after a while? Rozalin can break it anytime she wants though and still remain in control.
> 
> You said
> 
> "universal level" that doesnt sound like you saying he was as old as the universe.



Whoops, I guess I accidentally did call him universal.
Don't know why the hell I said that when I meant as old as the universe itself...

Either way, you are basically working on what-if's to bolster the fact that Rozalin-Zenon is at her complete power but from what we know of reincarnation, you pretty much forget about yourself but still gain some level of your own power. It's still pretty huge that Zenon STILL EXISTS as her darkside even after that but again, nothing states that she is at full power or that True Zenon regained all her power.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 30, 2016)

Reincarnation as a game mechanic allows characters to get stronger and we have no reason to assume Zenon got weaker. She reincarnated because her power/bloodthirst/whatever was changing her. We dont even know how she reincarnated and sealed her power at the same time. 

Like did she find a baby, put her power and memories in it and seal it away? If Zenon put the seal on her own power, how would that carry over to a newborn baby? Nobody ever mentions Zenon being weaker, especially Fake Zenon, the only dude that had actually seen her in battle out of all the characters in D2. We have no hints at her power having been reduced from reincarnating.


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## Qinglong (Mar 30, 2016)

Reincarnation lets you become stronger or weaker.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 30, 2016)

Well she still made Laharl shit himself after he'd already beaten Baal. We dont really have evidence of reincarnation making her stronger or weaker anyway.


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## Gig (Mar 30, 2016)

Laharl didn't beat Baal on his own he had at the very least Flonne and Etna to help him.


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## almanar (Mar 30, 2016)

Gig said:


> Laharl didn't beat Baal on his own he had at the very least Flonne and Etna to help him.



Disgaea HOD opening show , Laharl is killed Baal with ease without anyone help.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Mar 30, 2016)

Yeah no, Laharl was shitting himself when he saw Baal for the first time in Disgaea

He had help from at least Etna and Flonne.


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## Qinglong (Mar 30, 2016)

We know for a fact Etna was with him as she comments after the fight so why would you even consider the opening to matter?


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## Xhominid (Mar 31, 2016)

As the others stated, while it is said that Laharl canonically beats Baal, nothing states that he did so without help(which makes sense considering that no one ever fought him alone in the first place...ESPECIALLY since the endgame of the Disgaea games only became true canon after 3).

And secondly, As Qinglong states, Reincarnation works both ways to make you stronger or weaker. I seriously doubt that Overlord Zenon, who was actually FEARFUL of what she was becoming, would reincarnate stronger than ever. Most likely she couldn't seal ALL of her power away and it mainly manifests as her dark side. Fake Zenon found her later on and on top of that, slapped his own seal on top of her and raised her as a daughter to spite the Real Zenon.

And as you know, Laharl stupidly attacks the seal and the rest is history.


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## almanar (Mar 31, 2016)

eah but maybe he still not satisfied and summon it back and do this, lol



maybe because Laharl not too good for heroic  side lol , so nipponverse decided to create  powerful character Overlord here and there , and create them far more powerful than Laharl, 
 Baal will be permanent on DIsgaea as legend on evil side , every disgaea series. 

Laharl as the icon , its easy to remember him with his annoying laugh at every Disgaea series

i dont think any main character beside Laharl, have more iconic habit like him.


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## ShadMorgen (Mar 31, 2016)

What even is this thread anymore, lol.


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## God Movement (Mar 31, 2016)

Something better than it was before


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## Nevermind (Mar 31, 2016)

Still my choice for worst thread of 2016 so far.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 31, 2016)

Its not really a stomp though and it wasnt bad till universal sailor moon came in. There have been worse threads in just the last week.


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## almanar (Apr 1, 2016)

Well is the result.... tie? I still dont catch who is the official winner for this duel..
____________



    GO,GO, LAHARL, GO,GO,GO... GOGO,LAHARL,GO,GO,GO...GO,GO,LAHARL,GO,GO,GO


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## almanar (Apr 4, 2016)

Alright then, because unexpected result from battle progress. The outcome is

Laharl the winner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Ehm no..

Sailor senshi the winner!!!!!!  Err not really....

What!? Is it Draw??????????   Lol iam afraid no...  

The answer is the battle was *RUINED*!!! (6X the  bell ringing just in WWE "lol"discualification match )

The ending scene:
While Laharl and the Sailor senshi on fierce battle, unexpected dimension hole appeared on Laharl side , The Sailor senshi surprised by another 4 Figure ( Asagi, Adell, Mao and Valvatorez) appear, Mao call laharl to withdraw his match with force by binding him. 

Laharl: hey let me go!! How dare you binding the mighty overlord Laharl.

Mao.  : Thats enough dad, you wont got them to be your vassal for now.

Laharl: WTH!! Iam NOT your dad, no chance in hell..

Asagi : err we have enough reinforcement already , Etna is rampage on prinny because you are dissapeared without say anything.... 

Adell: huh..? They remind me the Prism Ranger on our world.. so colourfull.

Valvatores: Enough talk lets back to netherworld, the war was waged.  and All of you!! we may invaded again in your world on day, just pray it wont.... never happen..

All of them dissapeared and the portal closed.

Mercury: those Kid name Laharl is amazing powerful, and there is still another ?

Jupiter. : urghh i bet they are stronger than a kid before.

Neptune: i just relieved he doesnt destroy our galaxy yet

Saturn  : we are all exhausted . lets back home.. 

Mars.   : maybe he is right about, " the day is never come"....

All senshi (nod)


END 

well feed me with reply if there is another ending,...


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## Imagine (Apr 4, 2016)

Calm down.


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