# Kakashi vs Jiraiya



## Matty (Jul 20, 2015)

Area: 4th war battlefield
Knowledge: Jiraiya is aware of Kamui
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: None
Distance: 35 Meters

Kakashi is War Arc. Jiraiya is the same as against Pain


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## Kai (Jul 20, 2015)

J-man gets his body Kamui'd once Kakashi is bested on all fronts.


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## Trojan (Jul 20, 2015)

Kakashi gets trashed. Even he knows it.


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## Icegaze (Jul 20, 2015)

this has been done too many times
don't get why this thread is still discussed 

kakashi kamui wraps him. most likely 

failure to do this off the bat however lessens or rather removes his chances of victory


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## Trojan (Jul 20, 2015)

^

Kakashi had the Kamui since the start pf part 2. Not once did he ever thought that his level is anywhere near
Jiraiya's. This is just the usual Kamui wank in this regard which comes off as foolish as the "Amatersu GG" honestly.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 20, 2015)

Jiraiya wins in base.

yomi numa & lions mane are ready made sharingan foils, changing eye level & blocking sightline respectively.

jiraiyas ability top ressure from any range will push kakashi til' hes forced to go for kamui, resulting in a blindside attack,  of which j-man has a myriad of possible options.

rasengans foil any crafty rai'ton jutsu ploys


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## Bonly (Jul 20, 2015)

Kakashi's gonna need Kamui so he's gonna have to get close to Jiraiya in order to take him out and once he gets close enough Jiraiya is gonna be screwed unless he has some clones out to try and trick Kakashi so I'd say it's 50/50


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## Santoryu (Jul 20, 2015)

They are both popular characters; the matchup is going to be discussed as long as this section is active. Unfortunately for Jiraiya, his development stopped after the Pain arc. He loses.

In close quarters combat Kakashi has the obvious edge thanks to the Sharingan and his taijutsu-style that incorporates high-level raiton techniques. Base Jiraiya can't contend with that. Jiraiya's attacks are indeed on a much greater scale, thus letting him control the landscape and dictate things from a distance-in a battle of attrition he'd win hands down-but Kakashi's wide array of jutsu coupled with his tactical superiority more than makes up for his lack of large summons and location changing jutsu. So it comes down to this: does Kakashi push Jjiraiya far enough to prompt the latter to enter Sage mode? Or does Jiraiya compel Kakashi to resort to Kamui? The answer is this: it doesn't really matter. Because there is nothing Jiraiya can do to stop the power of the gods.


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## Amol (Jul 21, 2015)

Kakashi wins if he uses Kamui right off the bat.
If he doesn't immediately resorts to Kamui then he loses because Jiraiya uses plenty of clones and summons to fight which increases the risk of sniping clones with Kamui, basically wasting it.
Without Naruto providing chakra, Kakashi is not going to spam Kamui like he did in War Arc.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jul 21, 2015)

Kakashi isn't going to be using Kamui right off the bat. When has he ever done that? If this fight is IC it's going to be a very emotional fight and Kakashi and Jiraiya both respect each other so it is a fight they both don't want to do but circumstances prove otherwise for some reason.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 21, 2015)

War Arc Kakashi has better feats than Jiraiya. He has more speed, better reactions, more skill in Taijutsu, more intelligence, and more versatility. It doesn't matter if Kakashi uses Kamui right away or not. Jiraiya can't touch Kakashi. When you consider his analytical skills that would keep him a few steps ahead of Jiraiya, his usage of clones and subtlety to avoid direct damage for the early portion of the fight, and his ability to warp himself to Kamui land as well as warp insanely large attacks/objects as a line of defense... Kakashi can avoid Jiraiya long enough to land a Kamui or simply take him out with a well timed Raikiri. 

This is in character, but what really matters is killing intent. Are one of these fighters being controlled? One of them turn bad? Why are they fighting? Was there any prep time? The context is what makes the difference here. Not in who would win, but how the fight would go. Kakashi would logically win in a straight fight. But the winner is determined by the story and the author of that story.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 21, 2015)

Pre-War arc Kakashi was warping Susano Arrows he wasn't aware Sasuke could use. 

If he makes it to SM and remains out of AoS, he can defeat Kakashi. 

Dust Cloud (Ma) & Stealth Tactics (SM Sensing Targeting Kakashi in the Cloud -> Frog Call, Goemon, Odama Rasengan) are his only chance.

Is he capable of accomplishing that from 35m?

With Kakashi lacking any knowledge at all- that is more likely than not- because he isn't going to use Kamui immediately against a random ninja and he would have no reason to believe Jiraiya is capable of accurately targeting him in the Dust Cloud (no knowledge Jiraiya has SM Sensing), though hiding wouldn't really work anyway (Hiding via digging = Yomi Numa'd and forced to Kamui out of it onto regular field where he's blindsided further and killed). His hounds won't help him much- the dust flying up their noses will confuse their sense of smell and they can't really accurately smell an incoming Ninjutsu (Hair Needles, Goemon, Frog Oil Flame Bullet, Gama's Water Bullets, Frog Call)- not that I think the hounds are mentally fast enough or skilled enough with their scent to tell them that SM Jiraiya is shunshining at Kakashi from x direction with a Rasengan or Gamabunta is coming down with his sword from y direction quickly enough anyway. 

If there's manga knowledge for Kakashi, Jiraiya is probably blitzed at with Raiton Bunshin & Raiton Kunai throws, and if the feint doesn't work initially, Kakashi will warp him before Jiraiya succeeds in blocking AoS because letting a ninja like Jiraiya escape to formulate a plan is idiotic, and Kakashi knows it.


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## Icegaze (Jul 21, 2015)

Kakashi not kamui snipping the shit out of people or not believing he is far above jiriaya is plot 
When the guy is wrapping a clone right infront rinnegan obito 

And removing gedo arm before it can be summoned 

Both those things heavily imply jiriaya won't even see himself die 

War arc made kamui spamable

Truth is there was very heavy war arc Bs inflation 
If jiriaya had such inflations then he will win no issues 

Same way I would say he beats pre war arc kakahsi without a doubt


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## Uzzui (Jul 21, 2015)

Jiraiya trashes Kakashi unless Kakashi uses Kamui as soon as the matches starts and snips him, any other case Kakashi gets negged by Jiraiya

Jiraiyas arsenal is too overwhelming for Kakashi to handle, especially with Ma and Pa since they can provide him with intelligence, genjutsu etc, Jiraiya also has SM sensing so he can sense Kakashi building up chakra in his eye to use Kamui


*Spoiler*: __ 



Let's not forget how Jiraiya also managed to hold his own against 6 pains without knowledge while Kakashi (with Kamui) got defeated by one


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 21, 2015)

War Arc Kakashi has superior Taijutsu feats and reflexes seeing as how he can fight on par with V2 Jin with Precongition and Shared Vision whereas Jiraiya with his Sage Mode struggled to do anything with his Ninjutsu or Taijutsu against 3 Paths with one of them being blind. It's also important to note that V2 Jin are simply far faster than the Paths and more reflexive thanks to Precognition yet Kakashi performed much better with just his 3 Tomoe. With his MS Precognition, he should certainly have superior reflexes compared to SM Jiraiya. The only major problem however is SM Jiraiya's Frog Katas, so Kakashi would certainly have to strike with great precision if he wants to avoid it.

 Additionally, Immortals Arc Kakashi has great perception and analyzes seals far better than Shikamaru seeing as how Kakashi was the only one who identified Kakuzu's jutsu as a Doton and even being able to keep up with Part 1 Itachi's hand seal speed is also very impressive. Kakashi's Perception not only improved as shown in the War Arc, but he has MS Precognition on top of that, so any seals that Jiraiya ttempts should be countered by Kakashi with great efficiency as Databook confirms he has access to all 5 elements and access to 1000 jutsus which makes his ninjutsu very diverse.

 SM Jiraiya can counter Kakashi with Ma's Dust Cloud, but considering Kakashi has access to multiple summons that can track Jiraiya's scent and is skilled in being able to follow one's movements through scent and sound as stated in Kakashi Gaiden allows him to effectively counter his Dust Cloud. There's also the fact that he can manage a bushin feint as he did against Deva Path or simply have a clone use his Underground Doton technique as he used against Itachi and completely throw him off-guard and even paralyze him if he uses a successful Raiton Clone and simply incapacitate from there.

 And finally, Summons are either countered by Genjutsu, burrowing underground to evade Gamabunta's Large AoE, and also with a swift Kamui snipe if he feels the need to do so. Yomi Numa will be effective here, but seeing as how Kakashi constantly travels underground, it shouldn't really matter in the long run.

 Overall, I see War Arc Kakashi winning this.


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## Mercurial (Jul 21, 2015)

Kakashi wins without much problems. Jiraiya is definitely stronger that part 1 Kakashi, while Shippuden Kakashi is slightly stronger than him, and War Arc Kakashi is far above him; DMS Rikudo Kakashi clearly shits on an army ot 1000 Jiraiya, but oh well.

War Arc (not Rikudo obviously) Kakashi is far, far faster than base Jiraiya, as he could outspeed Obito (1)(2)(3) (that was perfectly able to fight KCM/BM Naruto and physically as fast as no Shunshin KCM Naruto (4) and by extension as V1 Raikage), intercept Kaguya's bone projectile with his dash, keep up with Gated Gai more than once counterblitzing Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 jinchuriki and landing Raikiri on them (5)(6) and then cutting their chakra arms with Raiden (7), we know how chakra arms are hella fast, and also react and move on par with Minato against a sudden threat (8). He also pressured with his speed Asura Path, dodging his attacks and appearing at his back (9)(10), the same that blitzed SM Jiraiya, and took the back of Kakuzu with ease (11), even if Raikiri makes noise he blitzed him before he could perceive him dashing to him. He has Sharingan precognition and unblockable Raiton attacks, as Ranjishigami or Hari Jizo are certainly not powerful enough to stop him lol. So Kakashi can pressure Jiraiya with far superior speed, adding Sharingan precognition to better time his attack, and use Raikiri, Raikiri kunai or Raiden to cut through any Ranjishigami or Hari Jizo with ease, in CQC and at short range Kakashi easily kills Jiraiya. Kakashi is also definitely smarter and more versatile, has the elemental advantage (Suiton > Katon, Raiton > Doton, plus his own Doton; Doton underground lets him dodge easily Jiraiya's giant Katon in combo with Gamabunta, Yomi Numa is negged with Raikiri chakra flowing around, or preempted with Sharingan and used before Jiraiya with fast handseals speed and genjutsu, as he did with Daibafuku against Zabuza and as Itachi did with Suiryodan against Kabuto); has Sharingan genjutsu on par with Obito's, while genjutsu is one of Jiraiya's biggest weaknesses. Preta Path could dance around Gamabunta with ease and Deva Path was literally laughing off Bunta and the other summons' attacks (12)(13)(14)(15), so Kakashi, who is much faster than Preta and at the very very very very least as fast as Deva and who was holding his own against real fucking Bijuu, will definitely dodge every of his attacks and cut off his limbs with Raiton ninjutsu. Jiraiya is not making SM with a faster and smarter opponent pressuring him and even if you make him starting in SM, Kakashi would outperform him with a Raiton Kage Bunshin and then kill him with a Silent Killing Raikiri. Kamui is not needed, but Kakashi can casually end the match with it if he wants, there's nothing that Jiraiya can do to stop or counter it not that it matters, since by feats he is not even reacting to Kakashi's quick and skilled usage of his Mangekyo Sharingan. Jiraiya in SM had to run away from Preta, Human and Animal, when Kakashi without needing the Mangekyo could trick and corner, and more than once, the much stronger Deva and Asura. And Kakashi in the War Arc is definitely stronger than his previous pre War Arc self.



Kai said:


> J-man gets his body Kamui'd once Kakashi is bested on all fronts.



Must be the reason why Kakashi is a lot faster, a lot smarter, more versatile, has better reflexes, more hax, better taijutsu, better genjutsu (except for Magen Gama Rinsho from SM Jiraiya when Jiraiya isn't surviving enough to enter SM, let alone use that jutsu that is said to require a lot of time to be used). 



Hussain said:


> ^
> 
> Kakashi had the Kamui since the start pf part 2. Not once did he ever thought that his level is anywhere near
> Jiraiya's. This is just the usual Kamui wank in this regard which comes off as foolish as the "Amatersu GG" honestly.



Sadly Kishimoto thinks otherwise, since in the 3rd databook is textually stated that Shippuden pre War Arc Kakashi is (at time before volume 43) Konoha's best ninja (> Gai, > Jiraiya, >> pre SM Naruto, >>> Tsunade). Viz scan. Kishimoto evidently considers Jiraiya as a Konoha ninja () (you can see the Konoha affiliation symbol right above his name) and considers pre War Arc Kakashi as stronger than him () (since he directly calls him "Konoha's best shinobi" at time of volume 43). Something that by feats that definitely makes sense. Like it or not, that is. Black ink written on white paper. And pre War Arc Kakashi << War Arc 1MS Kakashi.

Sadly not at all, when Kamui has far, far, far more better feats and hype than shitty Amaterasu ().



Uzzui said:


> Jiraiya trashes Kakashi unless Kakashi uses Kamui as soon as the matches starts and snips him, any other case Kakashi gets negged by Jiraiya
> 
> Jiraiyas arsenal is too overwhelming for Kakashi to handle, especially with Ma and Pa since they can provide him with intelligence, genjutsu etc, Jiraiya also has SM sensing so he can sense Kakashi building up chakra in his eye to use Kamui
> 
> ...



Sadly there's nothing that Jiraiya can do that is a problem for Kakashi. Kakashi is a lot faster than him, has Sharingan precognition, Raikiri in his hands and weapons, plus other Raikiri variants to use in CQC and short range, Raiton Kage Bunshin, Doton fast travelling and Sharingan genjutsu, in CQC he murks Jiraiya. On a long range, he negs him with Kamui, he either teleports behind him and kills him quickly and silently, or just warps away him; Yomi Numa is preempted and copied before Jiraiya can use it thanks to Sharingan precognition and faster hand seals speed, or just fucked up flowing Raikiri, with Raiton > Doton elemental advantage; any of Jiraiya's Katon can be easily dodged, and Gamayuu Endan is dodged by going Doton underground or with self teleporting with Kamui (4th databook states that Kakashi can perfectly do that as he also showed in the manga). Boss summons are laughed when they weren't able to even pressure Preta Path who was casually running circles around them and dodging their hits, Kakashi is a lot faster and lol he was facing real Bijuu; he sends a clone to mindfuck them with Sharingan genjutsu or to cut their limbs off with Raikiri kunai or Raiden.

Sadly Kakashi's usage of Kamui has proven to be too fast for Jiraiya's completely featless sensing, yeah that's sad.

Sadly Jiraiya managed only to make himself killed, very sadly. iraiya never really fought the Six Paths at full power, since Fukasaku said nothing about Deva powers, that Kakashi had to discover by himself, hence Deva never really fought against Jiraiya, as he never used his Rinnegan powers against him. Deva alone > all the other bodies together. Nagato felt the need to send only Animal Path to fight Jiraiya. Jiraiya felt he needed to use his trump card, Sennin Mode, against only Animal Path. Later, in Sennin Mode, he admitted he was overwhelmed and with no chances to win against Animal, Preta and Human, and he had to run away and resort to a tactical move that was possible only in that favorable environment.

Kakashi was fighting Deva Path, the strongest Path by far, the one that didn't need to even reveal his real powers against Jiraiya, and still Nagato felt the need to send Asura to help Deva against Kakashi, with Asura probably being Nagato's second strongest Path. Kakashi managed to fight both of them, discovering their powers, tricking and cornering them not once, but twice, without any need to use his trump card (Mangekyo Sharingan). Kakashi would have killed Deva and Asura with no plot fucking him: Asura was paralyzed and Deva had no klue on his position and just used his gravitational power: Kakashi could have easily silent blitzed him (like he did against Kakuzu) with Raikiri, or just use Kamui on him to warp his head off, we saw that his Kamui was already fast enough to warp away a missile, and a Shinra Tensei propelled nail with Deva unable to tell that he did: the Akimichi actually hindered him, because they fucked up what would have been Kakashi's following attack to Deva, since they were too slow to hit him even with a surprise attack, and weren't unable to kill Asura (that Kakashi would have defeated later); they only helped to distract Deva and pull the chains that Kakashi already prepared to capture him, but a couple of Kage Bunshin (to attack Deva from left and right) and a couple of fodder Mizu Bunshin (just to pull the chains) could have easily do the same. Not to mention that your reasoning is very wrong, since Kakashi fought Deva Path who alone is far stronger than all the other Paths combined; not to mention that is so painfully wrong, when Kakashi fought Deva and Asura, not Deva alone, and as said without relying on his trump card (Mangekyo) managed to counter, trick and corner them twice, while Jiraiya, while using his trump card (SM) admitted inferiority to Human, Animal and Preta, and stated that if he didn't use a run-away strategy he would have died there.

Not to mention that anyway moot point, since pre War Arc Kakashi is stated to be > Jiraiya, and War Arc Kakashi is far above. War Arc 1 MS Kakashi is at the very least a tier upper his Shippuden pre War Arc incarnation: gaining perfect MS mastery with offensive and defensive long range Kamui (a dojutsu praised for his power by Rinnegan Madara), learning to teleport himself with Kamui and to re-warp back things he warped in the Kamui dimension, better speed/CQC feats and much, much, much better chakra to spend for his jutsu, powerful new Raiton jutsu (Raiden, Raikiri infused weapons) hype as one of the main players of the war and so on.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Jiraiya undoubtably win's here. Since he has knowledge of Kamui he will immediately opt for Sennin Modo, and while i'm not sure what the opening means by 4th-War battlefield, as there are a million battlefields the 4th-war took place on, even if it's a wide open battlefield, the 35m starting distance gives Jiraiya more than enough time to implement a strategy to keep away from Kakashi until he reaches SM.

Once in SM, there is little danger of Jiraiya falling for Kamui, and Kakashi will very quickly be overwhelmed by Jiraiya's vastly superior fire-power.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 21, 2015)

War Arc Kakashi doesnt play around with kamui. He Mangekyou Sharingan warps Jiraya's head off.

It became more of his signature technique than Raikiri. He wins all day everyday.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> War Arc Kakashi doesnt play around with kamui. He Mangekyou Sharingan warps Jiraya's head off.
> 
> It became more of his signature technique than Raikiri. He wins all day everyday.


Kakashi fought the 7MS for 24 hours and to our knowledge didn't use Kamui. He fought the Edo Jinchuuriki Rikudo and than Gedo Mazo, never using Kamui. He only used Kamui a-lot in the Obito fight, because it was the only way around Obito's Kamui. After that he went back to not using Kamui throughout most of the Madara/Juubi fight, until the situation was extremely dire against Juubidara. 

Kakashi does not spam Mangekyo. 

And no it won't warp Jiraiya's head off at 35m, Kamui has no feats to support that, and because Jiriaya has knowledge on Kamui here he won't be giving Kakashi chance to get into range for Kamui.


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## Uzzui (Jul 21, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Sadly there's nothing that Jiraiya can do that is a problem for Kakashi. Kakashi is a lot faster than him, has Sharingan precognition, Raikiri in his hands and weapons, plus other Raikiri variants to use in CQC and short range, Raiton Kage Bunshin, Doton fast travelling and Sharingan genjutsu, in CQC he murks Jiraiya. On a long range, he negs him with Kamui, he either teleports behind him and kills him quickly and silently, or just warps away him; Yomi Numa is preempted and copied before Jiraiya can use it thanks to Sharingan precognition and faster hand seals speed, or just fucked up flowing Raikiri, with Raiton > Doton elemental advantage; any of Jiraiya's Katon can be easily dodged, and Gamayuu Endan is dodged by going Doton underground or with self teleporting with Kamui (4th databook states that Kakashi can perfectly do that as he also showed in the manga). Boss summons are laughed when they weren't able to even pressure Preta Path who was casually running circles around them and dodging their hits, Kakashi is a lot faster and lol he was facing real Bijuu; he sends a clone to mindfuck them with Sharingan genjutsu or to cut their limbs off with Raikiri kunai or Raiden.



Kakashi isn't the only one with a huge arsenal in his hand, like i said Jiraiya's arsenal can easily overwhelm Kakashi's. Jiraiya could use oil bullet to make the battlefield slippery and slow him down. Jiraiya also studied the sharingan and MS, so he has huge knowledge on the doujutsu giving him the advantage.

And yes, the intel will help him in battle, since knowledge gives Jiraiya _huge _boosts in fights, even Pain himself acknowledged that the only reason they won against Jiraiya was because they surprised him and fought him without Jiraiya having any intel

Jiraiya has shown great durability as well, so unless he gets hit through the heart with a raikiri, he isn't going down with any of Kakashi's jutsu he manages to pull out of his sleeve




> Sadly Kakashi's usage of Kamui has proven to be too fast for Jiraiya's completely featless sensing, yeah that's sad.



Kamui requires low to mid range to work, Jiraiya can just use Wild Lion's Mane technique to put Kakashi on defence and keep him back since that attack is Long Range. 



> Sadly Jiraiya managed only to make himself killed, very sadly. iraiya never really fought the Six Paths at full power, since Fukasaku said nothing about Deva powers, that Kakashi had to discover by himself, hence Deva never really fought against Jiraiya, as he never used his Rinnegan powers against him. Deva alone > all the other bodies together. Nagato felt the need to send only Animal Path to fight Jiraiya. Jiraiya felt he needed to use his trump card, Sennin Mode, against only Animal Path. Later, in Sennin Mode, he admitted he was overwhelmed and with no chances to win against Animal, Preta and Human, and he had to run away and resort to a tactical move that was possible only in that favorable environment.



Jiraiya pushed all 6 pains to their limit, like i said above Pain acknowledged the only reason why they even managed to win is due to Jiraiya being unaware of their abilities and how many of them were there. Jiraiya could have ended the fight once he used sage genjutsu, him falling for their trap and thinking theres only 3 pains lead to the Pains surprising him and eventually killing him.




> Kakashi was fighting Deva Path, the strongest Path by far, the one that didn't need to even reveal his real powers against Jiraiya, and still Nagato felt the need to send Asura to help Deva against Kakashi, with Asura probably being Nagato's second strongest Path. Kakashi managed to fight both of them, discovering their powers, tricking and cornering them not once, but twice, without any need to use his trump card (Mangekyo Sharingan). Kakashi would have killed Deva and Asura with no plot fucking him: Asura was paralyzed and Deva had no klue on his position and just used his gravitational power: Kakashi could have easily silent blitzed him (like he did against Kakuzu) with Raikiri, or just use Kamui on him to warp his head off, we saw that his Kamui was already fast enough to warp away a missile, and a Shinra Tensei propelled nail with Deva unable to tell that he did: the Akimichi actually hindered him, because they fucked up what would have been Kakashi's following attack to Deva, since they were too slow to hit him even with a surprise attack, and weren't unable to kill Asura (that Kakashi would have defeated later); they only helped to distract Deva and pull the chains that Kakashi already prepared to capture him, but a couple of Kage Bunshin (to attack Deva from left and right) and a couple of fodder Mizu Bunshin (just to pull the chains) could have easily do the same. Not to mention that your reasoning is very wrong, since Kakashi fought Deva Path who alone is far stronger than all the other Paths combined; not to mention that is so painfully wrong, when Kakashi fought Deva and Asura, not Deva alone, and as said without relying on his trump card (Mangekyo) managed to counter, trick and corner them twice, while Jiraiya, while using his trump card (SM) admitted inferiority to Human, Animal and Preta, and stated that if he didn't use a run-away strategy he would have died there.



Kakashi was fighting Deva Pain who didn't even do much but push Kakashi back and toy with him, Asura Path did all the work and compared to the other Pains, Asura Path is nothing since he can only shot bombs and turn his body into weapons in which you can easily dodge (especially with Kakashi's speed). Asura Path was most likely there just to distract and toy with him. Kakashi also had Chouji and Chouza helping him so the fight was actually 3 v 2 not 1 v 2

The only intel Kakashi managed to find was Deva Pains power. While Jiraiya in the other hand managed to find out about the six pains _and _Nagato 




> Not to mention that anyway moot point, since *pre War Arc Kakashi is stated to be > Jiraiya*, and War Arc Kakashi is far above. War Arc 1 MS Kakashi is at the very least a tier upper his Shippuden pre War Arc incarnation: gaining perfect MS mastery with offensive and defensive long range Kamui (a dojutsu praised for his power by Rinnegan Madara), learning to teleport himself with Kamui and to re-warp back things he warped in the Kamui dimension, better speed/CQC feats and much, much, much better chakra to spend for his jutsu, powerful new Raiton jutsu (Raiden, Raikiri infused weapons) hype as one of the main players of the war and so on.






*Spoiler*: __ 



The same Kakashi who got negged by Itachi, too scared to fight Oro and had trouble with Deidara?


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## Mercurial (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi fought the 7MS for 24 hours and to our knowledge didn't use Kamui. He fought the Edo Jinchuuriki Rikudo and than Gedo Mazo, never using Kamui. He only used Kamui a-lot in the Obito fight, because it was the only way around Obito's Kamui. After that he went back to not using Kamui throughout most of the Madara/Juubi fight, until the situation was extremely dire against Juubidara.
> 
> Kakashi does not spam Mangekyo.
> 
> And no it won't warp Jiraiya's head off at 35m, Kamui has no feats to support that, and because Jiriaya has knowledge on Kamui here he won't be giving Kakashi chance to get into range for Kamui.



Kakashi uses Kamui when he wants or when he needs. That's it. If he wants to use it to defeat Jiraiya, the second after Jiraiya is imprisoned in another dimension or has lost his head, since Kakashi doesn't need anything else than MS activation and a glance, with the level of mastery of the jutsu he showed. In the story, he just uses when it's needed for the plot to go further. He has the feats to spam it and to don't actually need to spam it.

He has. Knowledge means nothing when one can't do anything.



Uzzui said:


> Kakashi isn't the only one with a huge arsenal in his hand, like i said Jiraiya's arsenal can easily overwhelm Kakashi's. Jiraiya could use oil bullet to make the battlefield slippery and slow him down. Jiraiya also studied the sharingan and MS, so he has huge knowledge on the doujutsu giving him the advantage.
> 
> And yes, the intel will help him in battle, since knowledge gives Jiraiya _huge _boosts in fights, even Pain himself acknowledged that the only reason they won against Jiraiya was because they surprised him and fought him without Jiraiya having any intel
> 
> ...



By feats he can't overwhelm anything here. Yeah that's good, but it means nothing, as for we know Jiraiya didn't know a thing about Kamui, I guess he did know shit about the Sharingan since he was so smart to willingly meet Itachi's eyes (Itachi would have mindfucked him 25 hours on 24 of a day). Knowledge is not ability to counter, anyway, so moot point.

Not at all, he just said that he could have lost in that case. When he probably just referres at the fact that with knowledge of Nagato and the Six Paths Jiraiya would have prepared Frog Song before of the battle to go to defeat Nagato. Jiraiya could never defeat Pain with Chibaku Tensei, Deva Path actually never even used Shinra Tensei against Jiraiya, since Fukasaku didn't report that power and Kakashi had to discover it by himself.

In fact Jiraiya will die by Raikiri, or Raiden, or Raikiri kunai, or Raijuu Tsuiga, or Kamui. Never said the opposite, I don't get you.

Oh, really? Kakashi feinted to warp Naruto's Rasengan and then insta-warped away his body before Obito's Kamui propelled stakes could hit him even with a point blank shot (before Kamui shooted stake that was hitting BM Naruto could move for more than a couple of cm), managing to make Obito think that Kakashi missed and he succesfully hit the clone (1)(2)(3) when actually Kakashi changed his warp from Naruto's Rasengan to his entire body, warping it with such speed and timing that Obito (with full knowledge (4) and top tier reactions boosted by Mangekyo and Rinnegan eyes) couldn't notice or perceive it. That was when Kakashi was moving fast (5)(6) and was far from the objective that was moving hella fast and was really small (7); while Jiraiya is far from being fast and when Kakashi this time can just warp even the general area around him; mind that Kakashi showed that he was able to warp away a giant arm of the Gedo Mazo while Madara is already summoning it away with instant space-time summoning jutsu (8), something that earned even Madara's praise (Minato couldn't do anything in that situation than ask Kakashi taking care of it, Minato of all people couldn't even perceived what happened when Kakashi used Kamui on the Gedo Mazo, and had to ask him if he managed to kill it in time). And come on, Kakashi can dodge that all the day since armless Orochimaru was easily running circles around. Not to mention how easily he could trick Jiraiya with a Kage Bunshin, he's much smarter and more skilled than he is.

Jiraiya while using his trump card admitted that he would have died if he had continued to fight Animal, Human and Preta (9). Deva alone would completely wreck. Pre War Kakashi, without using his trump card, cornered and tricked Deva backed up by Ashura (10). Not once but twice. When Jiraiya faced all Six Paths, Deva never even used his gravitational power, that was seen for the first time by Kakashi.

You didn't read the manga that well, pal. Pain stated two times how great Kakashi's skills were and how he was honored to fight him. Ashura's weapons that you call nothing to be afraid of, are missiles and explosives able to destroy portions of a city. The Akimichi actually hindered him, because they fucked up what would have been Kakashi's following attack to Deva, since they were too slow to hit him even with a surprise attack, and weren't unable to kill Asura (that Kakashi would have defeated later); they only helped to distract Deva and pull the chains that Kakashi already prepared to capture him, but a couple of Kage Bunshin (to attack Deva from left and right) and a couple of fodder Mizu Bunshin (just to pull the chains) could have easily do the same. 

Itachi defeated part 1 Kakashi (not Shippuden Kakashi who is a lot stronger with Mangekyo and far better stats and jutsu) who was still strong enough to react and counter all Itachi's moves (ninjutsu and clone feints) (11)(12) to the point that Itachi had to use the Mangekyo to not dragging the fight with him, that when he perfectly knew that using the Mangekyo would have ruined his eye sight and lowered his chakra level by much, he still did that willingly. Orochimaru also was more powerful than part 1 Kakashi, Shippuden Kakashi is another thing sadly. Deidara was actually at Kakashi's mercy even with Kakashi not being able to use the Mangekyo very well (13)(14)(15), Deidara even compared Kakashi's dojutsu user worth to Itachi's. Anyway moot point, since Shippuden pre War Arc Kakashi is (at time before volume 43) stated by Kishimoto to be Konoha's best ninja (> Gai, > Jiraiya, >> pre SM Naruto, >>> Tsunade). Viz scan. Kishimoto evidently considers Jiraiya as a Konoha ninja () (you can see the Konoha affiliation symbol right above his name) and considers pre War Arc Kakashi as stronger than him () (since he directly calls him "Konoha's best shinobi" at time of volume 43). Something that by feats that definitely makes sense. Like it or not, that is. Black ink written on white paper. And pre War Arc Kakashi << War Arc 1MS Kakashi.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi fought the 7MS for 24 hours and to our knowledge didn't use Kamui. He fought the Edo Jinchuuriki Rikudo and than Gedo Mazo, never using Kamui. He only used Kamui a-lot in the Obito fight, because it was the only way around Obito's Kamui. After that he went back to not using Kamui throughout most of the Madara/Juubi fight, until the situation was extremely dire against Juubidara.
> 
> Kakashi does not spam Mangekyo.
> 
> And no it won't warp Jiraiya's head off at 35m, Kamui has no feats to support that, and because Jiriaya has knowledge on Kamui here he won't be giving Kakashi chance to get into range for Kamui.


oh pls. Really? The 7 ninja swordsman. They were reanimated, hes not gonna waste chakra on immortals that regenerate. Whats the point of using kamui on them when they cant die. And he isnt gonna waste chakra warping their entire bodies either. He had a whole squad he was in charge of, so there was no need for kamui when he has ninja with sealing abilities to take them down.

Against a high level opponent like jiraya, none of that is an issue.

Come on turrin...35m. Early shippuden kakashi already greatly exceeded that range when he used it against deidara. And that was when he sucked at kamui,

He didnt use against juudara becuase his eye sight was bad and had to be extremely close to the target, 

Yes kakashi does spam ms.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 21, 2015)

Both of them have similar killing potential but I can see Jiraiya falling for a RKB all the same, which would leave the 3 of them stunned and Kakashi can finish off the fight that way. Base Jiraiya would be defeated by Kakashi more times than not as Kakashi's arsenal > Jiraiya's, but SM Jiraiya is more 50/50 as it depends solely on his execution of clone feints and Kakashi relying on his MS.


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## The Undying (Jul 21, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Anyway moot point, since Shippuden pre War Arc Kakashi is (at time before volume 43) stated by Kishimoto to be Konoha's best ninja (> Gai, > Jiraiya, >> pre SM Naruto, >>> Tsunade). Viz scan. Kishimoto evidently considers Jiraiya as a Konoha ninja () (you can see the Konoha affiliation symbol right above his name) and considers pre War Arc Kakashi as stronger than him () (since he directly calls him "Konoha's best shinobi" at time of volume 43). Something that by feats that definitely makes sense. Like it or not, that is. Black ink written on white paper. And pre War Arc Kakashi << War Arc 1MS Kakashi.



I don't know why you keep bringing this up as if it means anything. "Konoha's best shinobi" doesn't specify time or proximity and thus requires an _inferrence_ to even make sense, otherwise you'd be arguing that Kakashi is superior to Hashirama. If you can infer the statement is only referencing the present, then it is equally valid for anyone else to infer that the statement also only references the shinobi within Konoha's borders. Kishimoto considers Jiraiya to be _affiliated_ with Konoha; that doesn't mean he considers him a part of Konoha's _military organization_, which is clearly what the statement is referring to considering that qualitative propositions of this kind hinge entirely on Konoha's military strength.

Your example certainly says a lot for Kakashi, but it doesn't say anything in regards to Kakashi being compared to a ninja who obviously isn't included in Konoha's artillery.


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## Kai (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi fought the 7MS for 24 hours and to our knowledge didn't use Kamui. He fought the Edo Jinchuuriki Rikudo and than Gedo Mazo, never using Kamui. He only used Kamui a-lot in the Obito fight, because it was the only way around Obito's Kamui. After that he went back to not using Kamui throughout most of the Madara/Juubi fight, until the situation was extremely dire against Juubidara.
> 
> Kakashi does not spam Mangekyo.
> 
> And no it won't warp Jiraiya's head off at 35m, Kamui has no feats to support that, and because Jiriaya has knowledge on Kamui here he won't be giving Kakashi chance to get into range for Kamui.


Kakashi was using Kamui long before he figured Obito's jutsu was Kamui.

Read the fight again.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> oh pls. Really? The 7 ninja swordsman. They were reanimated, hes not gonna waste chakra on immortals that regenerate. Whats the point of using kamui on them when they cant die.


Immortal Tensei would be the perfect targets as he could send them to Box-Land thus bypassing their durability.



> And he isnt gonna waste chakra warping their entire bodies either. He had a whole squad he was in charge of, so there was no need for kamui when he has ninja with sealing abilities to take them down.


So basically what your saying is Kakashi takes into consideration his chakra and uses Kamui conservatively, which was my whole point.



> Against a high level opponent like jiraya, none of that is an issue.


Against an opponent who can use Kage-Bushin, it's even more of an issue to not waste a Kamui.



> Come on turrin...35m. Early shippuden kakashi already greatly exceeded that range when he used it against deidara. And that was when he sucked at kamui,


That was not 35m, but I don't think Kakashi can cast Kamui before Jiraiya blocks LOS with one of his Jutsu or uses KB. The fact that Jiraiya knows about Kamui guarantees his win here.



> He didnt use against juudara becuase his eye sight was bad and had to be extremely close to the target,


So again he was conservative with his usage. Fuck forget Juubidara, show me one instance in the entire manga where Kakashi uses Kamui the moment the battle begins.



> Yes kakashi does spam ms.


Okay, show me one instance outside of the fight against Obito where he spams MS. Let alone spams MS offensively. 



Kai said:


> Kakashi was using Kamui long before he figured Obito's jutsu was Kamui.
> 
> Read the fight again.


How about re-read my post again:

"he only used Kamui *a-lot* in the Obito fight"


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## Kai (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> How about re-read my post again:
> 
> "he only used Kamui *a-lot* in the Obito fight"







			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> He only used Kamui a-lot in the Obito fight, *because it was the only way around Obito's Kamui. *


Kakashi was using Kamui long before he figured Obito's jutsu was Kamui.

Read my post again.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Kai said:


> Kakashi was using Kamui long before he figured Obito's jutsu was Kamui.
> 
> Read my post again.



--copy-- How about re-read my post again:

"he only used Kamui *A-LOT *in the Obito fight, because it was the only way around Obito's Kamui." --paste --

Basically there is a difference between using something A-LOT and using something.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 21, 2015)

Face it Kai, Turrin can't be wrong regardless if you have solid proof stating otherwise.


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## Rocky (Jul 21, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> , Turrin can't be wrong regardless if you have solid proof stating otherwise.



No, your proof will then become a retcon.

Or the original translators interpreted it wrong.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Face it Kai, Turrin can't be wrong regardless if you have solid proof stating otherwise.


Really dude, you don't understand the definition of a-lot ether....


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## Kai (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin, "only way around Obito's Kamui" was not the only part of the Obito fight.

Kakashi activated Mangekyo immediately as soon as the Obito fight began. Before they figured Obito's jutsu was Kamui, Kakashi already used Kamui twice.

Therefore, Kakashi was using Kamui A LOT during the Obito fight, BEFORE it was the only way around Obito's Kamui.

Do you understand or not?

Again, they did not know Obito's jutsu was Kamui and Kakashi was *already* using Kamui immediately.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Kai said:


> Turrin, "only way around Obito's Kamui" was not the only part of the Obito fight.
> 
> Kakashi activated Mangekyo immediately as soon as the Obito fight began. Before they figured Obito's jutsu was Kamui, Kakashi already used Kamui twice.
> 
> ...


Okay no, first off. The Obito fight started with the Edo Jinchuuriki Paths, which Kakashi never used Kamui against. It than went on for a long time off panel against GM which Kakashi at least to our knowledge did not use Kamui against. Than they started fighting Obito directly and Kakashi used Kamui twice, before he realized his Kamui could perhaps counter Obito's Kamui.

So 

A) that's not as soon as the fight began by any stretch of the imagination, that's under dire straights to stop the Juubi from awakening
B) Your telling me i'm wrong because using something twice equals using it a-lot, WTF. Like how is it my problem that you define 2 uses as a-lot, when I was talking about him using it 6-7 times against Obito.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Really dude, you don't *undestand* the definition of a-lot *ether*....


Given that you can't spell or use conjunctions properly...



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> He only used Kamui a-lot in the Obito fight, *because* it was the only way around Obito's Kamui.


Using "because" here establishes a conjunction to complete your thought process. Your whole sentence her proves that what you said before "because" is contingent upon what you said after. Therefore, you can't weasel your way out of it by highlight and coloring the first part of the sentence since it isn't a complete thought.


			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> No, your proof will then become a retcon.
> 
> Or the original translators interpreted it wrong.


Yeah, then he'll post pages of the manga (in Japanese) and insist that you don't understand the tone when your Japanese friends are like, he just wants to be heard, let him be.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Given that you can't spell or use conjunctions properly...
> 
> ​Using "because" here establishes a conjunction to complete your thought process. Your whole sentence her proves that what you said before "because" is contingent upon what you said after. Therefore, you can't weasel your way out of it by highlight and coloring the first part of the sentence since it isn't a complete thought.


I completely stand by the fact that Kakashi used Kamui a-lot in the Obito fight because Kamui was a counter to Obito's Kamui. What you and Kai don't seem to be understanding is that I don't define 2 usages as a-lot, I define Kakashi 6-7 usages in total against Obito as a-lot. And again it's not my problem that your and Kai's definition of a-lot of uses is different than mine. Especially when my definition conforms more to the typical usage of the word, than 2 uses does.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I completely stand by the fact that Kakashi used Kamui a-lot in the Obito fight because Kamui was a counter to Obito's Kamui. What you and Kai don't seem to be understanding is that I don't define 2 usages as a-lot, I define Kakashi 6-7 usages in total against Obito as a-lot.





That is basically what I see each time you bait yourself into argument and then play the semantics game.


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## Kai (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Okay no, first off. The Obito fight started with the Edo Jinchuuriki Paths, which Kakashi never used Kamui against. It than went on for a long time off panel against GM which Kakashi at least to our knowledge did not use Kamui against. Than they started fighting Obito directly and Kakashi used Kamui twice, before he realized his Kamui could perhaps counter Obito's Kamui.


A) Kakashi was ready to use Kamui against the bijuudama
B) Kakashi used Kamui on Gedo Mazo, which was negated.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> A) that's not as soon as the fight began by any stretch of the imagination, that's under dire straights to stop the Juubi from awakening
> B) Your telling me i'm wrong because using something twice equals using it a-lot, WTF. Like how is it my problem that you define 2 uses as a-lot, when I was talking about him using it 6-7 times against Obito.


A) Proof Kamui use is determined by Juubi's awakening please 
B) Willingness to use Kamui counts just as much.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Kai said:


> A) Kakashi was ready to use Kamui against the bijuudama.


And that's him immediately using Kamui the moment the fight starts? And using it to offensively snipe at someone? Or is that him once again only using it later in the fight in a dire situation?



> Kakashi used Kamui on Gedo Mazo, which was negated.


And that was how many chapters into the fight? And that wasn't under dire straights to stop Juubi awakening?



> Proof Kamui use is determined by Juubi's awakening please


Doesn't ever pull out Kamui against GM, despite fighting it for a long ass time off panel. Learns that GM is about to evolve into Ten-Tails. Says he'd like to do something about GM before that happens. Right after that activates MS and hangs back targeting GM w/ Kamui:



I'm not sure what else you need.



> Willingness to use Kamui counts just as much.


What willingness to use Kamui Kai. He fought against the Edo Jins and only considered using Kamui once when they were all facing annihilation against 5 TBB. Than he never used it against GM, until the Juubi was about to awaken. And the third time he used it was when it was literally his only option to save Naruto's life. Prior to that in the Kages and Pain arcs, he only used Kamui when he absolutely had to in-order to save his and Chouji's life. He was only contemplating using it against Kakuzu in-order to save his and Ino/Choji's lives. 

Kakashi uses Kamui conservatively, and when he does use it, it's most frequently a defensive application to save his life or the lives of others.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> That is basically what I see each time you bait yourself into argument and then play the semantics game.


Kai is the one who quoted me, I didn't quote Kai. Yet somehow I was intentionally baiting Kai. 

The fact that you and kai misinterpreted my post, and I point it out to you is semantics 

I'm sorry, but the Irony here is so hilarious. You accuse me of never admitting when I'm wrong, but your literally resorting to personal attacks, instead of just admitting that you were wrong due to misinterpreting my post. 

Geesh.


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## Kai (Jul 21, 2015)

Shifting the goal post.

Kakashi was ready to use Kamui against the bijuudama, used Kamui on Mazo, and used Kamui on his Raiton-infused Kunai. That is a number of Kamui inferences/uses on Kakashi's end before they found out Obito's ninjutsu was also Kamui. 

Are we arguing if Kakashi would only use Kamui in a dire situation? That is shifting the goalpost.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 21, 2015)

Kakashi attempted to OHKO Obito with Kamui.This page

Although my reasoning for why Kakashi opted for Kamui alot is, because he had allies.

Note that he says "sakura take care of my body." With allies around, he can use Kamui and not worry about getting counter attacked and killed, or falling unconscious, because someone will protect him. Or heal him, in Sakura's case.

I don't think Kakashi will opt for a blind Kamui right off the bat, I think he'll opt for it if he thinks its a guaranteed hit or if its a last resort. Its a high risk high reward move, but it doesn't worth it in every situation he is in.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Kai is the one who quoted me, I didn't quote Kai. Yet somehow I was intentionally baiting Kai.
> 
> The fact that you and kai misinterpreted my post, and I point it out to you is semantics
> 
> ...


Just observations, if you think it's a personal attack then that speaks for itself don't ya think? 

By that logic, I suppose everyone in the battledome is wrong except for you, because honestly, anytime someone calls bullshit on some of your posts, you get overly defensive and the argument boils down to the tone of the manga, how your interpretation is better than viz, how the proof presented is a retcon or should be a retcon and/or a debate about semantics/terminology.

FYI, Kai and I aren't the only members who feel this way.


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## Kai (Jul 21, 2015)

I'm not active enough to know the controversy behind Turrin's translation work, although I always thought he's done a fine job and is by far the most active translator in the translations section.

As for Kamui, it's not a conventional use technique but as the dojutsu of his Mangekyo Sharingan it's going to be used like other Mangekyo Sharingan techniques have been used with relatively similar frequency; War Arc Kakashi made it to that level of frequent use.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 21, 2015)

Two things should be noted in Kakashi's defense,

_Deidara's comment_

Deidara directly compared Kakashi's eye power to that of Itachi. The MS is considered an Indra counterbalance to the Ashura Sage Mode. Yes, Kakashi only has one eye, but Jiriaya only has imperfect senjutsu. 

_Kakashi's feat against Deidara_

Kakashi had the mastery to blip away the Deidara's exploding clone whole. Hell, the clone was much larger than a normal human at that point. The fact that Kakashi didn't do so against Deva Path was _plot_, nothing more or less.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Just observations, if you think it's a personal attack then that speaks for itself don't ya think?


Speaks for what exactly? My ability to recognize that your post is the text-book defintion of a personal attack? _"Making of an abusive remark on or relating to one's person instead of providing evidence when examining another person's claims or comments"_



> By that logic, I suppose everyone in the battledome is wrong except for you


What does everyone in the BD agree on, that I disagree on lol. Literally no topic like that exists.



> because honestly, anytime someone calls bullshit on some of your posts, you get overly defensive and the argument boils down to the tone of the manga


Welcome to the NBD Ryuzaki, whenever someone calls BS on someone's post and than they defend themselves. It's kind of what we do here 

As far as getting overly defensive goes, apparently it's going overboard when someone tells me to re-read the manga because they totally misinterpreted my post, to point out that they are wrong? Seems a-lot like to me that you "overly-defensive" is code word for stop proving me wrong. 



> how your interpretation is better than viz


Straw-Man. I said my opinion on translations in context with specific debates are better than the Viz. Why? Gee Idk, maybe it's because the Viz translators aren't around to give their opinions on how the text relates to these debates. 



> how the proof presented is a retco


There is literally only like a few things I've ever called a retecon, and all of them are extremely likely to be so and most are main stream.



> or should be a retcon and/or a debate about semantics/terminology.


Semantics and Terminology is nothing more than code word, for me using words correctly, people misinterpreting my meaning, I tell them why they are wrong, and than they say semantics instead of manning up and admitting they made a mistake. Case and point this entire discuss between us.



> FYI, Kai and I aren't the only members who feel this way


I'm very much aware that there are quite a few people on this forum that are annoyed by me, but it's not for any of the reasons you listed. It's because I don't see the need to censor myself by paying lip service to fan favorite characters, pairings, or the even the quality of certain manga's overall. And because I'm not just trolling when doing so, but actually make strong compelling argument for why I believe certain popular ideas/characters/series are overrated, they get frustrated because they only want to see favorable shit about their fav thing. And the reason why I know that this is the main reason people get annoyed with me, is because personal attacks such as these only come up when it involves someones fan favorite character, series, what have you. Case and point you getting annoyed at me in a thread about your fav Kakashi. 

All the stuff you cite is just not true. If people didn't like me doing translations I wouldn't have an 11 page long thread. There are detailed records on this forum of me being wrong countless times LOL. The semantics claims are never actually semantics. And the retecon stuff I believe is usually in line with what the main stream believes, I.E. that a-lot of shit from the Chunin Exams arc got Retcon'd.



Kai said:


> As for Kamui, it's not a conventional use technique but as the dojutsu of his Mangekyo Sharingan it's going to be used like other Mangekyo Sharingan techniques have been used with relatively similar frequency; War Arc Kakashi made it to that level of frequent use.


I'm sure he would use it as frequently as say Itachi, but he'd use it first and foremost for defense and literally all I was saying is that I very much doubt he's going to start a match by immediately going for an offensive Kamui or spamming Kamui in general.


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## MS81 (Jul 21, 2015)

If it's sage chakra Kakashi then yes he wins, but if it's regular war arc Kakashi then Jiraiyah wins by a nose hair.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

Kai said:


> Shifting the goal post.j


How LoL.



> Kakashi was ready to use Kamui against the bijuudama, used Kamui on Mazo, and used Kamui on his Raiton-infused Kunai. That is a number of Kamui inferences/uses on Kakashi's end before they found out Obito's ninjutsu was also Kamui.


It's two uses.. No matter what spin you try to put on it Kai, there is no way that you can sit here with a straight face and say that me not counting that as "a-lot" of Kamui usage is factually incorrect. It should be very clear that we simply have different meanings for what "a-lot" is. Now just let's cut the BS shall we, and let me ask you something straight up. Can you or can you not see how my view of a-lot of uses might be a bit more than just 2 uses, yes or no?



> Are we arguing if Kakashi would only use Kamui in a dire situation? That is shifting the goalpost.


LOL. You literally told me "Willingness to use Kamui counts just as much." hence me talking about Kakashi's mind-set. Now you accuse me of shifting the goal post because I addressed your point. This is ridiculous Kai


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## thechickensage (Jul 21, 2015)

@ Turrin:  
Then = following, after, etc. ("I pwned with my Pure Logic no Jutsu, and then I ate grapes")
Than = comparison  ("I threw the ball farther than Turrin did")

You always write than.



Anyways.  

The derpy hype of Kamui is one of the most annoying things about this forum.  Raikiri19 especially.  

Kamui GG?  In every thread you post in.

Maybe you're right that Kishi screwed up by giving an OP power, or maybe you overestimate the ways in which it can be used.  Regardless, Kamui GG is NOT in character.

But as for THIS matchup, I think Jiraiya would win.  He has far more experience than Kakashi does, and Kakashi has NO stamina in comparison.  The ONLY way Kakashi would win is if he tricks Jiraiya...but Jiraiya is smart/tricky enough to not fall for it.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> @ Turrin:
> Then = following, after, etc. ("I pwned with my Pure Logic no Jutsu, and then I ate grapes")
> Than = comparison  ("I threw the ball farther than Turrin did")
> 
> ...


Too be honest I dont really pay attention to that tuff when writing on the forum


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## thechickensage (Jul 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Too be honest I dont really pay attention to that tuff when writing on the forum



I like you and your youtube videos  

Just saying.  I always notice the then/than thing.

PS: also, it's "to be honest" if you were baiting me.  Grammar hurts me, man.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> I like you and your youtube videos
> 
> Just saying.  I always notice the then/than thing.
> 
> PS: also, it's "to be honest" if you were baiting me.  Grammar hurts me, man.


Lol the funny thing i'm an english major, I just don't pay attention at all when writing shit here. Like right now i'm watching Tv while typing this, not even looking at my keyboard lol. So unfortunately I doubt I'll care enough to watch my grammar any time soon.


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## StickaStick (Jul 22, 2015)

This all depends on at what point Kakashi reaches the conclusion he needs to start body-snipping in order to win. I want to give Kakashi the benefit of the doubt and say that because of his unparalled intelligence and respect for Jiraiya's capabilities (and this goes without even knowing about SM) and being aware of Jiraiaya's ability to pressure his opponent relentlessly with his plethora of jutsu that would be especially daunting for someone like Kakashi will relatively low chakra reserves that Kakashi would realize quickly, if not from the get-go, that he would need to lean on Kamui in an offensively aggressive manner in order to have a better-than-solid chance of winning. 

Problem is that there's probably just as good of a chance Kakashi will figure he can beat base Jiraiya using Kamui only passively and in that case if Jiraiya is able to enter SM Kakashi may have wasted his best chance at winning and possibly even be at an insurmountable disadvantage from that point forward.

So basically, how Kakashi figures his odds will determine how he uses Kamui and will likely decide the outcome.


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## Mercurial (Jul 22, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> @ Turrin:
> Then = following, after, etc. ("I pwned with my Pure Logic no Jutsu, and then I ate grapes")
> Than = comparison  ("I threw the ball farther than Turrin did")
> 
> ...



Blame Kishimoto for it, not me. It's the first thing that you said and no, Kishimoto didn't screw anything giving him that power. The funny thing is that with DMS Kakashi he even exxagerated it.

Anyway 3T War Kakashi wins definitely, Kakashi doesn't need Kamui to defeat Jiraiya.



StickaStick said:


> This all depends on at what point Kakashi reaches the conclusion he needs to start body-snipping in order to win. I want to give Kakashi the benefit of the doubt and say that because of his unparalled intelligence and respect for Jiraiya's capabilities (and this goes without even knowing about SM) and being aware of Jiraiaya's ability to pressure his opponent relentlessly with his plethora of jutsu that would be especially daunting for someone like Kakashi will relatively low chakra reserves that Kakashi would realize quickly, if not from the get-go, that he would need to lean on Kamui in an offensively aggressive manner in order to have a better-than-solid chance of winning.
> 
> Problem is that there's probably just as good of a chance Kakashi will figure he can beat base Jiraiya using Kamui only passively and in that case if Jiraiya is able to enter SM Kakashi may have wasted his best chance at winning and possibly even be at an insurmountable disadvantage from that point forward.
> 
> So basically, how Kakashi figures his odds will determine how he uses Kamui and will likely decide the outcome.



Oh, what reason would be the one because Kakashi can win just with Kamui, even against Jiraiya who is only in base and not SM? Must it be Jiraiya's allmighty Ranjishigami and Hari Jizo that he can easily dodge and cut off with Raiton, must it be Jiraiya's Yomi Numa that he can easily neutralize with Raiton or preempt and copy before than him, must it be Jiraiya's CQC with Rasengan that he negs with far superior speed, Sharingan precognition, Raikiri and Raikiri variants, Raiton Kage Bunshin, Doton underground travelling and Sharingan genjutsu, must be Jiraiya's intellect that he surpassed by a mile, must be Jiraiya's boss summons that Preta Path was running circles around?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 22, 2015)

Lets not forget that Kakashi isn't a natural born Uchiha, MS has more taxing effects on him. Under normal circumstances he can never be as liberal as a true uchiha with his MS usage.

It changed during war arc because, well, the shark was jumped and he was never alone. He had other shinobi(some stronger than him) around him who could protect him, so he had no problems of leaving himself vulnerable.


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## Uzzui (Jul 22, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> By feats he can't overwhelm anything here. Yeah that's good, but it means nothing, as for we know Jiraiya didn't know a thing about Kamui, I guess he did know shit about the Sharingan since he was so smart to willingly meet Itachi's eyes (Itachi would have mindfucked him 25 hours on 24 of a day). Knowledge is not ability to counter, anyway, so moot point.



Kakashi may have access to dozens of jutsus but he doesn't have the stamina nor the chakra to carry them out, to make matters worse Kakashi's Sharingan usage drains his already low stamina. He's already at a disadvantage. Jiraiya is a entire new case, he has both strong _and _large chakra supply

Jiraiya spend _years _studying the sharingan and MS to the point his fully aware of amatersu and managed to learn how to tank it. Kamui intel will most likely be in his book



> Not at all, he just said that he could have lost in that case. When he probably just referres at the fact that with knowledge of Nagato and the Six Paths Jiraiya would have prepared Frog Song before of the battle to go to defeat Nagato. Jiraiya could never defeat Pain with Chibaku Tensei, Deva Path actually never even used Shinra Tensei against Jiraiya, since Fukasaku didn't report that power and Kakashi had to discover it by himself.





Words by Pain himself 



> In fact Jiraiya will die by Raikiri, or Raiden, or Raikiri kunai, or Raijuu Tsuiga, or Kamui. Never said the opposite, I don't get you.



Raikiri requires the user to get extremely close to the opponent to land the technique, like i said previously with Wild Lion's Mane Jiraiya can put Kakashi on defence and keep him back since that attack is Long Range, and useful

Not forgetting with Sage Art: Bath of Boiling Oil Jiraiya can easily get rid of the combat ground for Kakashi, he will be forced to retreat or go to a high altitude, the latter he won't be able to do since he doesn't have summons like Jiraiya



> Oh, really? Kakashi feinted to warp Naruto's Rasengan and then insta-warped away his body before Obito's Kamui propelled stakes could hit him even with a point blank shot (before Kamui shooted stake that was hitting BM Naruto could move for more than a couple of cm), managing to make Obito think that Kakashi missed and he succesfully hit the clone (1)(2)(3) when actually Kakashi changed his warp from Naruto's Rasengan to his entire body, warping it with such speed and timing that Obito (with full knowledge (4) and top tier reactions boosted by Mangekyo and Rinnegan eyes) couldn't notice or perceive it. That was when Kakashi was moving fast (5)(6) and was far from the objective that was moving hella fast and was really small (7); while Jiraiya is far from being fast and when Kakashi this time can just warp even the general area around him; mind that Kakashi showed that he was able to warp away a giant arm of the Gedo Mazo while Madara is already summoning it away with instant space-time summoning jutsu (8), something that earned even Madara's praise (Minato couldn't do anything in that situation than ask Kakashi taking care of it, Minato of all people couldn't even perceived what happened when Kakashi used Kamui on the Gedo Mazo, and had to ask him if he managed to kill it in time). And come on, Kakashi can dodge that all the day since armless Orochimaru was easily running circles around. Not to mention how easily he could trick Jiraiya with a Kage Bunshin, he's much smarter and more skilled than he is.



Kamui needs the user to get close to snipe, with SM sensing, Pa and Ma, sound genjutsu and summons that's not happening. Kakashi will also only have few shots before entirely collapsing from exhaustion 



> Jiraiya while using his trump card admitted that he would have died if he had continued to fight Animal, Human and Preta (9). Deva alone would completely wreck. Pre War Kakashi, without using his trump card, cornered and tricked Deva backed up by Ashura (10). Not once but twice. When Jiraiya faced all Six Paths, Deva never even used his gravitational power, that was seen for the first time by Kakashi.



Jiraiya with no intel and thinking he was only going to fight Konan and one Pain, heavily challenged them. That's a impressive that Nagato himself acknowledged



> You didn't read the manga that well, pal. Pain stated two times how great Kakashi's skills were and how he was honored to fight him. Ashura's weapons that you call nothing to be afraid of, are missiles and explosives able to destroy portions of a city. The Akimichi actually hindered him, because they fucked up what would have been Kakashi's following attack to Deva, since they were too slow to hit him even with a surprise attack, and weren't unable to kill Asura (that Kakashi would have defeated later); they only helped to distract Deva and pull the chains that Kakashi already prepared to capture him, but a couple of Kage Bunshin (to attack Deva from left and right) and a couple of fodder Mizu Bunshin (just to pull the chains) could have easily do the same.



Deva Pain hardly did anything but toy him and push him back when Kakashi tried to land an attack. The majority of the match was Kakashi, Chouji and Chouza vs Asura Path with minor help from Deva Path. The match also showed how low and weak his chakra and stamina is. He died from over using Kamui/MS and he only used it a couple times



> Itachi defeated part 1 Kakashi (not Shippuden Kakashi who is a lot stronger with Mangekyo and far better stats and jutsu) who was still strong enough to react and counter all Itachi's moves (ninjutsu and clone feints) (11)(12) to the point that Itachi had to use the Mangekyo to not dragging the fight with him, that when he perfectly knew that using the Mangekyo would have ruined his eye sight and lowered his chakra level by much, he still did that willingly. Orochimaru also was more powerful than part 1 Kakashi, Shippuden Kakashi is another thing sadly. Deidara was actually at Kakashi's mercy even with Kakashi not being able to use the Mangekyo very well (13)(14)(15), Deidara even compared Kakashi's dojutsu user worth to Itachi's. Anyway moot point, since Shippuden pre War Arc Kakashi is (at time before volume 43) stated by Kishimoto to be Konoha's best ninja (> Gai, > Jiraiya, >> pre SM Naruto, >>> Tsunade). Viz scan. Kishimoto evidently considers Jiraiya as a Konoha ninja () (you can see the Konoha affiliation symbol right above his name) and considers pre War Arc Kakashi as stronger than him () (since he directly calls him "Konoha's best shinobi" at time of volume 43). Something that by feats that definitely makes sense. Like it or not, that is. Black ink written on white paper. And pre War Arc Kakashi << War Arc 1MS Kakashi.



Kakashi in part 1 still had MS, his jutsus and speed, yet it took Itachi a couple panels to neg him. Nothing can justify that. It was MS vs MS, but only Itachi had the chance to use it. 

Deidara wasn't comparing the power level of Kakashi's sharingan with Itachi's, he was simply comparing the sharingan, he also did that with Sasuke, not a feat. Pre War Arc Kakashi was a fodder compared to his counter part in the war arc, after trying and failing to snipe Deidara with Kamui he ended up in hospital with chakra exhaustion, comparing him to Jiraiya is completely laughable


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## Icegaze (Jul 22, 2015)

I don't get the divided opinions here
since war arc kishi didn't give a shit

he had kakashi use kamui 5 times back to back
yes he needed to 

however since war arc and no consequences to kakashi body
kakashi can and will use it off the bat for the lolz

btw the height of kamui is self wrapping which kakashi can do. he is a perfect kamui user

no reason to assume he doesn't off the bat snipe his head off

its of no consequence or risk to him. considering he took gedo arm off and still had enough chakra to use kamui 2 more times.


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## Mercurial (Jul 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I don't get the divided opinions here
> since war arc kishi didn't give a shit
> 
> he had kakashi use kamui 5 times back to back
> ...



I agree but actually, after that Kakashi used the quick and giant warp on the Gedo Mazo, he used Kamui not two but five other times (on Obito's body, on Minato's Rasengan, on Obito's body again, on Naruto and Sakura and on Juudara's Gudodama shield) and he also used another before (to warp himself back from the Kamui dimension). Not that it matters here, since Kakashi can end a fight against Jiraiya with only a single usage of Kamui.



Uzzui said:


> Kakashi may have access to dozens of jutsus but he doesn't have the stamina nor the chakra to carry them out, to make matters worse Kakashi's Sharingan usage drains his already low stamina. He's already at a disadvantage. Jiraiya is a entire new case, he has both strong _and _large chakra supply
> 
> Jiraiya spend _years _studying the sharingan and MS to the point his fully aware of amatersu and managed to learn how to tank it. Kamui intel will most likely be in his book
> 
> ...



He has all the tools to end this fight quickly, not to mention that his chakra greatly increased, especially if he doesn't use the Mangekyo he can literally spam the 3T Sharingan plus other ninjutsu.

Any proof of that? No, you haven't because they aren't in the actual manga. Not to mention that Jiraiya didn't know shit about Amaterasu, hence he was especially surprised when he witnessed the jutsu, and Kamui is on another different level from Amaterasu. Not to mention that Jiraiya's "great knowledge of Sharingan" made him willingly meet Itachi's eyes, yeah, he basically tried to suicide himself, if Itachi wanted to kill him he would have mindfucked him so hard. It's a great fanfiction to think that he knows anything about Kamui, let alone counter it which is far far far more difficult.

And so what? Think about the context please. You didn't even read my post about that. A full power/serious Pain not hindered will simply paste Jiraiya.

Kakashi is far faster than Jiraiya and has Sharingan precognition too, not to mention that he has also clone feints (he feinted both Pain and Itachi, people stronger than Jiraiya and with dojutsu enhanced vision), he landed Raikiri on opponents much faster than Jiraiya and he can just use Raiden to cut like butter through any defense that Jiraiya mounts, since it cut V2 chakra that is far, far, far more durable than everything Jiraiya is capable.

Yeah good thing that Jiraiya needs to reach SM to do that which isn't happening here, and that Kakashi can simply oneshot him with Kamui a lot faster than Jiraiya can execute his jutsu.

It doesn't need at all, please read the manga. Not to mention that Jiraiya's sensing is completely featless, really nothing to say that he is reacting to Kamui when Minato of all people couldn't tell what happened when Kakashi used Kamui on the Gedo Mazo that Madara was summoning or when Obito couldn't even follow Kakashi's quick usage of Kamui and was tricked by it; there are people who had full knowledge and were tiers and tiers more reflexeive than Jiraiya. Not to mention that the funniest thing is that even if Jiraiya reacts, his head will be warped in the other dimension an instant after, nonetheless, he can's stop or counter the jutsu sadly. But 99.9% of people cannot so it's not something to be ashamed of.

Stopped reading the rest when I read that part 1 Kakashi had MS. Whoah must be the reason for why he called it his new jutsu in Shippuden?


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2015)

Kakashi's stamina isn't going to be a deciding factor in this fight:


*Spoiler*: __ 



 creds to Hasan


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 22, 2015)

*kakashi* cannot warp himself in, only bring him self out from the pocket dimension after *obito* has put him there.

he can move objects in & out, but not him self

saying kakashi is a *perfect *kamui user is a fallacy & oxymoron.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 22, 2015)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> *kakashi* cannot warp himself in, only bring him self out from the pocket dimension after *obito* has put him there.
> 
> he can move objects in & out, but not him self
> 
> saying kakashi is a *perfect *kamui user is a fallacy & oxymoron.



 But his Kamui warps things to that same dimension. Saying he can't warp himself to the Kamui Dimension while he can warp himself from the Kamui Dimension to his own Dimension doesn't make sense.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> But his Kamui warps things to that same dimension. Saying he can't warp himself to the Kamui Dimension while he can warp himself from the Kamui Dimension to his own Dimension doesn't make sense.



and saying obito cant invulnerably phase himself from there to the real world is just as inconsistent, but thats what happened against kakashi.

that happens in fiction sometimes; a story is being told.
the story it takes priority over sci/fantasy consistency


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 22, 2015)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> and saying obito cant invulnerably phase himself from there to the real world is just as inconsistent, but thats what happened against kakashi.



 He actually can in the perspective of one who is trapped in Kamui's Dimesnion.


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## Mercurial (Jul 22, 2015)

Oh my god the non sense

_*Page 242

Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai - Kamui
No rank, all ranges, offensive, defensive
Users: Obito Uchiha, Kakashi Hatake

The godly eyes that conquer fate's horizon!! [TN: Epic sentence is epic.]

Coercing into another dimension!!

A dojutsu that transfers objects into the dimension created with the "Mangekyo Sharingan". In proportion to the amount of chakra the user holds, the possibly transferable mass of the target is increased or decreased. A skilled user can also transfer his own body. Furthermore, there's a subtle difference in the powers of the left and right eyes. The left eye hurls distant objects into the dimension by fixating them, the right eye unconsciously makes a body part slip-through by transfering it. Additionally, by having both eyes, "Susanoo" appears and it is possible to apply Kamui's powers to its weapons.*_

Oh my god the non sense


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## Icegaze (Jul 22, 2015)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> *kakashi* cannot warp himself in, only bring him self out from the pocket dimension after *obito* has put him there.
> 
> he can move objects in & out, but not him self
> 
> saying kakashi is a *perfect *kamui user is a fallacy & oxymoron.



 
if he cant wrap himself in and out 

how on earth did he get to obito location using kamui?

seriously


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## Hasan (Jul 23, 2015)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> *kakashi* cannot warp himself in, only bring him self out from the pocket dimension after *obito* has put him there.



Say what?


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## Uzzui (Jul 23, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> He has all the tools to end this fight quickly, not to mention that his chakra greatly increased, especially if he doesn't use the Mangekyo he can literally spam the 3T Sharingan plus other ninjutsu.



Did you honestly just say 3T Sharingan Kakashi can stand a chance against Jiraiya? 



> Any proof of that? No, you haven't because they aren't in the actual manga. Not to mention that Jiraiya didn't know shit about Amaterasu, hence he was especially surprised when he witnessed the jutsu, and Kamui is on another different level from Amaterasu. Not to mention that Jiraiya's "great knowledge of Sharingan" made him willingly meet Itachi's eyes, yeah, he basically tried to suicide himself, if Itachi wanted to kill him he would have mindfucked him so hard. It's a great fanfiction to think that he knows anything about Kamui, let alone counter it which is far far far more difficult.





*Spoiler*: __ 









He knew about amatersu and knows how to dispel genjutsu casted by sharingan users



> And so what? Think about the context please. You didn't even read my post about that. A full power/serious Pain not hindered will simply paste Jiraiya.



Pain was completely serious against Jiraiya, just because he didn't use all of his jutsu, it doesn't automatically mean he wasn't going all out. He was challenged throughout the fight and was even corned at some parts of it, him having multiple pains coming out of nowhere is what gave Nagato/Pain the advantage. 



> Kakashi is far faster than Jiraiya and has Sharingan precognition too, not to mention that he has also clone feints (he feinted both Pain and Itachi, people stronger than Jiraiya and with dojutsu enhanced vision), he landed Raikiri on opponents much faster than Jiraiya and he can just use Raiden to cut like butter through any defense that Jiraiya mounts, since it cut V2 chakra that is far, far, far more durable than everything Jiraiya is capable.



Indeed Kakashi is much faster, however Jiraiya can use his techniques to give himself the advantage, he can get rid of the battle ground and use his summonings



> Yeah good thing that Jiraiya needs to reach SM to do that which isn't happening here, and that Kakashi can simply oneshot him with Kamui a lot faster than Jiraiya can execute his jutsu.



Kakashi can't use kamui if he can't even get close to him in the first place 



> It doesn't need at all, please read the manga. Not to mention that Jiraiya's sensing is completely featless, really nothing to say that he is reacting to Kamui when Minato of all people couldn't tell what happened when Kakashi used Kamui on the Gedo Mazo that Madara was summoning or when Obito couldn't even follow Kakashi's quick usage of Kamui and was tricked by it; there are people who had full knowledge and were tiers and tiers more reflexeive than Jiraiya.



That's because Minato was completly clueless about Obitos abilities and yet he still managed to strike Obitos weak point

Jiraiya in the other hand has intel on the sharingan so it won't take Jiraiya as long as Minato to know and understand how Kamui works 

Lol Obito could follow Kakashi's usage of kamui he was simply impressed on Kakashi's high understanding of kamui and the sharingan despite not being his eyes



> Not to mention that the funniest thing is that even if Jiraiya reacts, his head will be warped in the other dimension an instant after, nonetheless, he can's stop or counter the jutsu sadly. But 99.9% of people cannot so it's not something to be ashamed of.



Kamui isn't instant bud 


> Stopped reading the rest when I read that part 1 Kakashi had MS. Whoah must be the reason for why he called it his new jutsu in Shippuden?



Kakashi was 28/9 in part 1



He had MS since he was 14


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2015)

@uzzi
kakashi couldn't use MS though
obito unlocked it and kakashi passed out as a result 

he only unlocked it in part 2

and kamui is very much instant. as shown when he wrapped gedo arm before it could be summoned


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

Kakashi wins, most likely.


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## Uzzui (Jul 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @uzzi
> kakashi couldn't use MS though
> obito unlocked it and kakashi passed out as a result
> 
> ...



Kakashi only passed out due to being traumatised for killing Rin, to add he also awakened the MS which should have been too overwhelming for a non Uchiha user 

Also compared to Obito, Kakashi should have easily mastered MS faster due to his "genius" status on understanding things

And the only reason why Kakashi didn't use MS was due to MS being kept secret for the plot to take place in part 2, during his fight with Itachi pretty sure even Itachi's MS wasn't shown much. Kakashi was also quickly KO'd with Itachi's genjutsu, so he couldn't fight any further hence why he couldn't use any more moves including MS


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## Icegaze (Jul 25, 2015)

Uzzui said:


> Kakashi only passed out due to being traumatised for killing Rin, to add he also awakened the MS which should have been too overwhelming for a non Uchiha user
> 
> Also compared to Obito, Kakashi should have easily mastered MS faster due to his "genius" status on understanding things
> 
> And the only reason why Kakashi didn't use MS was due to MS being kept secret for the plot to take place in part 2, during his fight with Itachi pretty sure even Itachi's MS wasn't shown much. Kakashi was also quickly KO'd with Itachi's genjutsu, so he couldn't fight any further hence why he couldn't use any more moves including MS



 
kakashi had no recollection of actually having it when obito went cray and killed everyone

he only gained control of it in part 2 as stated in the manga

odd how u didnt mention the wrapping gedo arm before it could be summoned. 

that alone already lets you know who easily wins this fight

this is the only reason i hate kakashi character.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 25, 2015)

I don't know why this is even an arguement.

Kakashi clearly called his Kamui a *new* technique when it is first used. Obito unlocked it when they were younger but Kakashi obviously didn't know about it or how to use it until sometime after part one. There's no big mystery there, other than how Kakashi discovered he could use Kamui in the first place.


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## Uzzui (Jul 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> kakashi had no recollection of actually having it when obito went cray and killed everyone
> 
> he only gained control of it in part 2 as stated in the manga



Scan of Kakashi explicitly stating he learned to use MS in part 2? He instantly got use to the sharingan as soon as it was implanted in his eyes, him taking more than 10 years to master MS is way off for his character 



> odd how u didnt mention the wrapping gedo arm before it could be summoned.
> 
> that alone already lets you know who easily wins this fight
> 
> this is the only reason i hate kakashi character.



He only just managed to snipe a arm, plus he was waiting for the gedo statue to get summoned. Kakashi was only able to do that due to having preparation time


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## StarWanderer (Jul 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> kakashi had no recollection of actually having it when obito went cray and killed everyone
> 
> he only gained control of it in part 2 as stated in the manga
> 
> ...



Kakashi was speaking with Minato during that summoning. It seems both Kakashi and Minato can speak very fast. 
*
Space-time speaking!


*


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## StickaStick (Jul 25, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Oh, what reason would be the one because Kakashi can win just with Kamui, even against Jiraiya who is only in base and not SM? Must it be Jiraiya's allmighty Ranjishigami and Hari Jizo that he can easily dodge and cut off with Raiton, must it be Jiraiya's Yomi Numa that he can easily neutralize with Raiton or preempt and copy before than him, must it be Jiraiya's CQC with Rasengan that he negs with far superior speed, Sharingan precognition, Raikiri and Raikiri variants, Raiton Kage Bunshin, Doton underground travelling and Sharingan genjutsu, must be Jiraiya's intellect that he surpassed by a mile, must be Jiraiya's boss summons that Preta Path was running circles around?


You basically substantiated my point by listing a bunch of techniques that would require Kakashi to expend a notable amount of chakra defending against as well as chakra expended through his own offense. If Kakashi is only using Kamui passively and to compliment the rest of his arsenal then he's going to end up expending a ton of chakra no matter what the result, and against someone with superior reserves.


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