# What makes Marco more impressive than Katakuri?



## Zero (Oct 2, 2020)

Basically the title, I may be underestimating Marco but what exactly makes him more impressive than Katakuri? During Marineford, Marco was able to "fight" the admirals but he didn't do any noticeable damage. I don't see anything Marco accomplished during the war that Katakuri couldn't have replicated if not done better. 

With Katakuri's future sight and his Devil Fruit awakening he seems stronger or more impressive than Marco. So why is Marco > Katakuri the predominantly held view point?


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## Deleted member 58423 (Oct 2, 2020)

nothing


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## Draco Bolton (Oct 2, 2020)

Because he is WB firstmate. It's the reason why he is more impressive for them.

Yeah I know it's weird


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## Datassassin (Oct 2, 2020)

@ the title: Not a goddamn thing.

Marco's strengths are *different *than Katakuri's and not outright superior; Marco also went up against stronger people, so that colors people's perceptions, but it's not as if he wow'd against those people. Any First Mate would have to gun for Admirals too in similar situations.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lyren (Oct 2, 2020)

He is not more impressive than Katakuri. They are more or less on the same lvl


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## Freechoice (Oct 2, 2020)

Blocking Akainu's attack and sending Kizaru flying is more impressive than anything Katakuri has done

Reactions: Like 7


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## Zero (Oct 2, 2020)

Freechoice said:


> Blocking Akainu's attack and sending Kizaru flying is more impressive than anything Katakuri has done


Ok the Akainu feat that's fair, I'm not sure if Katakuri could replicate that actually.

But regarding sending Kizaru flying, I believe Kizaru was trolling even then. Kizaru responed with his kick saying "Pretty effective I'd say" then Marco responded with "You liar!" And then walked away with no damage. So Katakuri should be able to do something similar in that same scenario. 

*Spoiler*: __


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 2, 2020)

Basic reading comprehension

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Sloan (Oct 3, 2020)

I was thinking of this the other day.  Basically what would happen if Big Mom/Kaidou were in WB's place.  Could Kaidou and Big Mom's number 1 and number 2 guys respectively block Mihawk's air slash and Kizaru's Yasakani: Sacred Jewel?

I think Katakuri could dodge Kizaru's Yasakani Sacred Jewels himself, but if he were to have them explode on himself on contact like Marco did for the first wave of them, he would take some serious damage.  Smoothie could probably shoot her own air slash at Mihawk's to counter it(It doesn't have to be stronger just intercept it and discharge it basically).

As for King and Queen, I'm not sure Queen could block the air slash as he fundamentally would have to just tank it with his body which I don't see him doing without taking some good damage and I don't think King could block the first wave of Yasakani: Sacred Jewel but the second one he could probably dodge them, maybe.

Reactions: Like 2


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## B Rabbit (Oct 3, 2020)

His impressive Regeneration for starters.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Mr. Good vibes (Oct 3, 2020)

Really and truly it's his df's regeneration powers allowing him to be the biggest damage soak in the series that gives him an edge over katakuri.


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## Corax (Oct 3, 2020)

His DF. It is massively better as even for example haki 3.0 is nothing for him as long as he has stamina to regenerate. Kata can't even think about taking haki 3.0,even Kaido can be damaged by it. For example he could've taken all Luffy's snakeman attack no problem and regenerated,while Kata was KO by them.


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## Ren. (Oct 3, 2020)

Zero said:


> Basically the title, I may be underestimating Marco but what exactly makes him more impressive than Katakuri? During Marineford, Marco was able to "fight" the admirals but he didn't do any noticeable damage. I don't see anything Marco accomplished during the war that Katakuri couldn't have replicated if not done better.
> 
> With Katakuri's future sight and his Devil Fruit awakening he seems stronger or more impressive than Marco. So why is Marco > Katakuri the predominantly held view point?


Don't steal my thread Zehaha


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## charles101 (Oct 3, 2020)

Nothing tbh. Marco can survive lasers going though him and Katakuri would just dodge it.

Reason is:
- most people hate BM
- most people like WB


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## lastkiller (Oct 3, 2020)

Big bro Kat best fm hands down...anyone who thinks different is just saucy...yale yale doshtebakimono


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## ho11ow (Oct 3, 2020)

Both of them are impressive to me compare to King. Marco have superior df and Katakuri have fs and awakening while King doesn't have any impressive or unique ability.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## savior2005 (Oct 3, 2020)

As others have said, the answer is nothing.

Marco, Katakuri, and King are all pretty much the same strength imo. It seems like Beckman is the standout among the Yonko FM's. Shank's top members were singled out among all Yonko crews and Beckman received received hype on a SBS or something. Seems like he has a Roger/Rayleigh relationship with Shanks.


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## lastkiller (Oct 3, 2020)

savior2005 said:


> As others have said, the answer is nothing.
> 
> Marco, Katakuri, and King are all pretty much the same strength imo. It seems like Beckman is the standout among the Yonko FM's. Shank's top members were singled out among all Yonko crews and Beckman received received hype on a SBS or something. Seems like he has a Roger/Rayleigh relationship with Shanks.


Kat is strong than Beck

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Zero (Oct 3, 2020)

lastkiller said:


> Kat is strong than Beck


Why you think that?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## lastkiller (Oct 3, 2020)

Zero said:


> Why you think that?


Yale yale...Big Bro never loses to anyone except MC (main character bullshit of course)....

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## killfox (Oct 3, 2020)

Imagine going all out on Marco hitting him with a barrage of your strongest attacks pushing yourself to the extreme limit and blowing him away only for him to be like is that all? 

Also I don’t remember Katakuri or Ben Beckham being mentioned by the goursei.


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## charles101 (Oct 3, 2020)

killfox said:


> Imagine going all out on Marco hitting him with a barrage of your strongest attacks pushing yourself to the extreme limit and blowing him away only for him to be like is that all?



I have no idea what you're talking about. But anyway - Marco's regeneration is amazing UNTIL it reaches it's limit. Then all he has is wings.



killfox said:


> Also I don’t remember Katakuri or Ben Beckham being mentioned by the goursei.



And I don't remember Big Mom or Shanks dying so that they would need a replacement. What's the point?


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## xmysticgohanx (Oct 3, 2020)

he will have a far higher bounty and he will stall big mom

Reactions: Winner 1


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## killfox (Oct 3, 2020)

charles101 said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about. But anyway - Marco's regeneration is amazing UNTIL it reaches it's limit. Then all he has is wings.


1. We haven’t seen his limit but Luffy hasn’t shown more power than Kizarus barrage of Lazers or Akainus magma. 2.All he has is his wings” isn’t accurate. Zoan boost gives massive recovery even without his added regen, he has talons, and Haki.




charles101 said:


> And I don't remember Big Mom or Shanks dying so that they would need a replacement. What's the point?


Marco is clearly a force alone his feats show it.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 3, 2020)

charles101 said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about. But anyway - Marco's regeneration is amazing UNTIL it reaches it's limit. Then all he has is wings.



that's so weak LMAO

He has a limit - and it's probably related to his endurance. Which is at least 5-10 days worth

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Canute87 (Oct 3, 2020)

Zero said:


> Basically the title, I may be underestimating Marco but what exactly makes him more impressive than Katakuri? During Marineford, Marco was able to "fight" the admirals but he didn't do any noticeable damage. I don't see anything Marco accomplished during the war that Katakuri couldn't have replicated if not done better.
> 
> With Katakuri's future sight and his Devil Fruit awakening he seems stronger or more impressive than Marco. So why is Marco > Katakuri the predominantly held view point?



Marco looks more impressive for the simple reason that he fought the admirals and katakuri has not.


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## cry77 (Oct 4, 2020)

Sloan said:


> I was thinking of this the other day.  Basically what would happen if Big Mom/Kaidou were in WB's place.  Could Kaidou and Big Mom's number 1 and number 2 guys respectively block Mihawk's air slash and Kizaru's Yasakani: Sacred Jewel?
> 
> I think Katakuri could dodge Kizaru's Yasakani Sacred Jewels himself, but if he were to have them explode on himself on contact like Marco did for the first wave of them, he would take some serious damage.  Smoothie could probably shoot her own air slash at Mihawk's to counter it(It doesn't have to be stronger just intercept it and discharge it basically).
> 
> As for King and Queen, I'm not sure Queen could block the air slash as he fundamentally would have to just tank it with his body which I don't see him doing without taking some good damage and I don't think King could block the first wave of Yasakani: Sacred Jewel but the second one he could probably dodge them, maybe.


Logically Katakuri would handle the lasers differently. He would use FS to predict their trajectory and then counter with a flurry of mochi to detonate the lasers before they made contact.

For the Yc2 it gets more interesting, I dont see Queen stopping Mihawk's attack or replicating the iceburg strenght feat. Nor Smoothie. Jozu is very impressive for a Yc2, he might even be low Yc1 level. 

@OP : Marco is not SIGNIFICANTLY better portrayed than Katakuri, but really he does come across more impressive IMO.
Stopping a bloodlusted Akainu in his tracks are more impressive than failing to put Luffy down in 11 hours.

You could say they both suffer portrayal wise:
Marco suffers by going up against admirals, in a war filled with top players, making it difficult to stand out as a phenomenal force.

Katakuri on the other hand, suffers from plot by going up against the MC. Really, Luffy at the time should not have been capable of beating Katakuri, but it had to happen so it happened. As a result, Katakuri is now the guy who for all of his impressive FS and power, could not put WCI Luffy down over 11 hours of combat, and lacked the endurance to take even 10 direct hits from the same Luffy.

Marco should be capable of outputting G4 equal physical power. Maybe not KG level, but at least the basic unnamed G4 attacks, and Katakuri would feel those for sure.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## charles101 (Oct 4, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> that's so weak LMAO
> 
> He has a limit - and it's probably related to his endurance. Which is at least 5-10 days worth



"Probably" so its your guess. Cool.



killfox said:


> 1. We haven’t seen his limit but Luffy hasn’t shown more power than Kizarus barrage of Lazers or Akainus magma. 2.All he has is his wings” isn’t accurate. Zoan boost gives massive recovery even without his added regen, he has talons, and Haki.



Are we going using Marineford feats? Where Luffy survived attacks from Mihawk, Kizaru and Aokiji and Buggy trolled Mihawk and Akainu? Ok. Just get ready to feel silly once we'll see Marco reching regeneration limit against someone like King now.



Shunsuiju said:


> Marco is clearly a force alone his feats show it.



> Gorosei were talking only about Marco.
>> They were talking only about him because only his captain died.
> Yeah, but Marco is clearly a force. His feats show it.
>> ...Then WTF was that Gorosei talk about?


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## Sherlōck (Oct 4, 2020)

Someone who failed to take out base Luffy after 11 hours of beating isn't a threat to the guy who easily regenerated from Kizaru, Akainu and Garps attack.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Red Admiral (Oct 4, 2020)

short term memory of fandom ....

go see Luffy Vs Katakuri and you not gonna say anything but Marco ~ Katakuri


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## CaptainCommander (Oct 4, 2020)

Straight answer: Forum wanks Marines and hates on Luffy.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 4, 2020)

Freechoice said:


> Blocking Akainu's attack and sending Kizaru flying is more impressive than anything Katakuri has done



By that Logic Jinbei is more impressive then Katakuri as well.

As he blocked a Attack from Akainu, Big Mom, and sent Big moms fat ass flying(twice).

I doubt if i made a Katakuri vs Jinbei thread though you would say Jinbei wins.


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## Dunno (Oct 4, 2020)

The fact that he hasn't lost to WCI Luffy.


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## Freechoice (Oct 4, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> By that Logic Jinbei is more impressive then Katakuri as well.
> 
> As he blocked a Attack from Akainu, Big Mom, and sent Big moms fat ass flying(twice).
> 
> I doubt if i made a Katakuri vs Jinbei thread though you would say Jinbei wins.



That's not how it works


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## convict (Oct 4, 2020)

Lets wait for Marco to gain some feats soon. Katakuri is soon going to be treated like Doflamingo with how G4 *pre-Udon training* was treated as less than trash and people like Marco/Kidd/Zoro and Sulong minks will far outshine it and by extension gain feats to far outstrip Katakuri.

Because that is how people simply are over here.


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## stealthblack (Oct 5, 2020)

his defense since he can easily heal even from admiral attacks.. but in terms of offense katakuri was more impressive


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## CrownedEagle (Oct 6, 2020)

Marco was yonkou contender and fight top tier like Admirals and BB, Katakuri got his ass handled by Luffy who was one shot one arc latter by Kaido.

So better hypes, better feats and plot progression.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Quipchaque (Oct 7, 2020)

Zero said:


> Ok the Akainu feat that's fair, I'm not sure if Katakuri could replicate that actually.
> 
> But regarding sending Kizaru flying, I believe Kizaru was trolling even then. Kizaru responed with his kick saying "Pretty effective I'd say" then Marco responded with "You liar!" And then walked away with no damage. So Katakuri should be able to do something similar in that same scenario.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



It is not effective because Kizaru *blocked* the attack and Marco did not use his Zoan power for the attack. The very fact that Kizaru needs to block tells us that an attack that connects would inflict damage. Also Kizaru can not take damage from the impact on the ground since he is a logia. This is like saying Marco was trolling Kizaru because he blocked with instant regeneration and remains unscathed. That doesn't mean anything in term of attack potency for other if those characters.


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## cry77 (Oct 7, 2020)

charles101 said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about. But anyway - Marco's regeneration is amazing UNTIL it reaches it's limit. Then all he has is wings.


And physical power strong enough to stop a bloodlusted Akainu in his track.
And speed fast enough to intercept Kizaru's lasers.
And general zoan boosts.
And decades of combat experience.

No one is getting to Yc1 level as a one-trick pony riding a gimmick. They are all well-rounded fighters who can hold their own against anyone but THE strongest people in the world. 

Take away King's, Marco's and Katakuri's DF's and I would still put them around at least Yc3 level. Which is perfectly respectable.


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## OG sama (Oct 7, 2020)

They are on the same general level as far as I’m concerned.

People saying Katakuri couldn’t do what Marco did are just hating because he lost to Luffy.

Marco and Katakuri have different abilities, that’s the difference.

Marco isn’t outshining any of the Top SNs in this arc, he’s here for support but he’s taking a backseat.

The fact that it’s 2020 and people are still clinging on to MF feats is silly to me. Marco ain’t Admiral level and never has been, his placement is being King/Katas level.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Oct 8, 2020)

His portrayal of exchanging blows evenly with characters that are potentially about as strong as Big Mom or even stronger. Katakuri does not have that unless we are overrating what an average admiral can do against him.


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## Kroczilla (Oct 8, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> His portrayal of exchanging blows evenly



That seems like a bit of a stretch there, bud


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## OG sama (Oct 8, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> His portrayal of exchanging blows evenly with characters that are potentially about as strong as Big Mom or even stronger. Katakuri does not have that unless we are overrating what an average admiral can do against him.



So you expect Marco to fight BM or Kaido 1v1 right??? Because if we go by your logic Marco should be enough to 1v1 either one while Luffy and the others handle the rest.

Because after all, according to you he clashed evenly with Admirals who should be on that Yonko level right???

Come on man you and me both know this is BS, Marco had short clashes and skirmishes with Admirals who weren’t going all out in a WAR, you know... where outside interference is a given and people are constantly fighting different enemies so they can’t just focus in on one. I have no idea why you want to give credit to Marco for these out dated ass feats. 

If Marco is Admiral level then he should be able to confront Kaido or BM by his own self and the Alliance can handle the other guys. If we go by your logic am I right or wrong????


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## Quipchaque (Oct 8, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> That seems like a bit of a stretch there, bud



How? We saw it happen on panel.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 8, 2020)

OG sama said:


> So you expect Marco to fight BM or Kaido 1v1 right??? Because if we go by your logic Marco should be enough to 1v1 either one while Luffy and the others handle the rest.
> 
> Because after all, according to you he clashed evenly with Admirals who should be on that Yonko level right???
> 
> ...



It is only bullshit if you can show me proof that Marco doesn't have a few secret techniques just like Doflamingo did post skip. Besides who said that Marco has to be stronger than Big Mom or Kaido? You are putting words in my mouth that I never said.

Anyway to answer your question: you are wrong.


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## Kroczilla (Oct 8, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> How? We saw it happen on panel.


Short skirmishes can hardly be called "an even exchange of blows". By that logic, zoro "evenly" exchanged blows with fujitora. There's a reason no one in their right minds would place vista anywhere near same tier as Mihawk despite them "exchanging blows evenly". 

Not to mention, Akainu mowed through the WB commanders , including Marco with what appeared to have been little difficulty.

Even worse, Marco got his shit absolutely rocked by a minted Teach who was scared of taking on an admiral even with back up.

Everything we know tells us Marco isnt doing jack against a serious admiral regardless of his skirmishes with them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Quipchaque (Oct 8, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> Short skirmishes can hardly be called "an even exchange of blows". By that logic, zoro "evenly" exchanged blows with fujitora. There's a reason no one in their right minds would place vista anywhere near same tier as Mihawk despite them "exchanging blows evenly".
> 
> Not to mention, Akainu mowed through the WB commanders , including Marco with what appeared to have been little difficulty.
> 
> ...



That is more semantics than anything. I could call it a small skirmish instead but the point is still the same. The interactions we did see so far between Marco and the admirals indicate that they could be nigh-equal or anything around that. Zoro also did indeed exchange blows evenly with Fujitora. Big deal. You act like I am inventing panels or something. If you want to complain then go to Oda. He drew that stuff. For all I care Marco could be a fodder but I want to see it with my own eyes first not based on fan expectations.

The reason Mihawk and Vista interaction is treated differently is that we know Mihawk can pull off crazier feats than just clash with basic swordsmanship. Also he is implied to be stronger since he is hyped as the strongest kenshi and Vista doesn't fit the bill to argue he bypasses that hype in some Form. The same can not be said for Marco vs admirals and Fujitora has shown feats that Zoro is unlikely to match when even Luffy with all his might barely beats a guy that at most barely matches admiral rank in Dressrosa. So it doesn't make sense to use Zoro-Fuji and Vista - Mihawk as arguments to put Marco lower.

Blackbeard is also a bad example because he did not master the gura fruit at that point, Akainu could be noticeably stronger than an average admiral (for all we know, not saying he has to be) and Marco fought against him much later IIRC.

Anyway I don't think the current arguments you use are bulletproof. I am always one who prefers to wait until the characters actually get proper spotlight before I acknowledge the rankings of the fan base.


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## Kroczilla (Oct 8, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That is more semantics than anything. I could call it a small skirmish instead but the point is still the same. The interactions we did see so far between Marco and the admirals indicate that they could be nigh-equal or anything around that.



Quite the opposite. Marco had only one attack against an admiral (kizaru) who wasnt even taking him seriously. Even Marco himself called kizaru a liar when kizaru said Marco's attack was "effective" and we saw Kizaru with nary a scratch after. 

The one time Marco faced an admiral who was out for blood (Akainu), he together with the division commanders got absolutely bullied. If Marco couldnt even slow down an admiral with the backing of most of the division commanders, what makes him remotely on the same weight class as an admiral?



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Zoro also did indeed exchange blows evenly with Fujitora. Big deal. You act like I am inventing panels or something. If you want to complain then go to Oda. He drew that stuff. For all I care Marco could be a fodder but I want to see it with my own eyes first not based on fan expectations.



Except Marco not being close to admiral lvl isnt based on fan expectation but actual feats of him being steamrolled by Akainu once he got serious. As well as the absolute defeat he suffered against the weakest emperor. 



DiscoZoro20 said:


> The reason Mihawk and Vista interaction is treated differently is that we know Mihawk can pull off crazier feats than just clash with basic swordsmanship. Also he is implied to be stronger since he is hyped as the strongest kenshi and Vista doesn't fit the bill to argue he bypasses that hype in some Form.


Thank you for making my point for me. We know the admirals hype as being one of the two most powerful forces in the world. Nothing Marco has shown suggests he comes even close. 




DiscoZoro20 said:


> The same can not be said for Marco vs admirals and Fujitora has shown feats that Zoro is unlikely to match when even Luffy with all his might barely beats a guy that at most barely matches admiral rank in Dressrosa. So it doesn't make sense to use Zoro-Fuji and Vista - Mihawk as arguments to put Marco lower.



At this point, you are just being obtuse. This is the same as the other day with the "zoro strength feat". 



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Blackbeard is also a bad example because he did not master the gura fruit at that point, Akainu could be noticeably stronger than an average admiral (for all we know, not saying he has to be) and Marco fought against him much later IIRC


Except nothing indicates Akainu is noticeable stronger than his fellow admirals. If anything, they have all been consistently depicted as equals. 

Also even if we assume Marco fought a Blackbeard with a fully mastered Quake fruit, its still would put Blackbeard anywhere close to Whitebeard's lvl who on top of the fruit, had monstrous physique and haki to the point of destroying ace in his sleep.

Heck we know that BB has since been stacking on DFs and even the WG regard him as far less of a threat than his other emperors despite Aokiji joining his crew.




DiscoZoro20 said:


> Anyway I don't think the current arguments you use are bulletproof. I am always one who prefers to wait until the characters actually get proper spotlight before I acknowledge the rankings of the fan base.



Well tbh, i am not interested in having what should be a non-argument in the first place.

You do you.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 8, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> Quite the opposite. Marco had only one attack against an admiral (kizaru) who wasnt even taking him seriously. Even Marco himself called kizaru a liar when kizaru said Marco's attack was "effective" and we saw Kizaru with nary a scratch after.
> 
> The one time Marco faced an admiral who was out for blood (Akainu), he together with the division commanders got absolutely bullied. If Marco couldnt even slow down an admiral with the backing of most of the division commanders, what makes him remotely on the same weight class as an admiral?
> 
> ...



No it is not quite opposite. Kizaru called Marco a liar too. Wow what an amazing argument. >_>

Akainu never steamrolled Marco.

Prove Blackbeard is the weakest emperor and that admirals would not lose against him. 

An individual admiral alone is not the strongest force in the world nor have they ever been hyped as anything on the scope of that. They are the strongest government force. Just like the commanders are the strongest yonkou force. 

Stop forcing your head canon. I am going by what the manga will show us not what you want the manga to show us.


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## OG sama (Oct 8, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> It is only bullshit if you can show me proof that Marco doesn't have a few secret techniques just like Doflamingo did post skip. Besides who said that Marco has to be stronger than Big Mom or Kaido? You are putting words in my mouth that I never said.
> 
> Anyway to answer your question: you are wrong.



Secret techniques like what exactly?? And hell no I'm not finna assume that Marco has some imaginary secret technique with no basis.

What exactly is he supposed to have that’s going to put him on Yonko level? He’s a healer and his biggest role should be to heal others.

Assuming Marco has some imaginary technique just cause Doflamingo had BC is silly especially when you take into consideration they don’t have the same fruit so they aren’t going to have the same things just cause Marco is stronger. Katakuri didn’t have a BC technique and he was an arc villain that came after Doflamingo, Marco is an ally. He’s here to support, and that’s what his fruit does best.


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## CaptainCommander (Oct 8, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Secret techniques like what exactly?? And hell no I'm not finna assume that Marco has some imaginary secret technique with no basis.



So then Fujitora doesn't have some secret techniques either.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 8, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Secret techniques like what exactly?? And hell no I'm not finna assume that Marco has some imaginary secret technique with no basis.
> 
> What exactly is he supposed to have that’s going to put him on Yonko level? He’s a healer and his biggest role should be to heal others.
> 
> Assuming Marco has some imaginary technique just cause Doflamingo had BC is silly especially when you take into consideration they don’t have the same fruit so they aren’t going to have the same things just cause Marco is stronger. Katakuri didn’t have a BC technique and he was an arc villain that came after Doflamingo, Marco is an ally. He’s here to support, and that’s what his fruit does best.



Be creative. There are things like awakening, advanced haki forms, advanced devil fruit mechanics etc.

I would not sleep on that guy just yet.


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## VileNotice (Oct 8, 2020)

Marco probably has more techniques just like King will have more techniques. But that doesn't make either of them substantially stronger than Katakuri.

Imo based on hype and progression the first mates go like Shiryu < Katakuri < King < Marco < Beckman but everyone besides Beckman, who is a potential top tier, are incredibly close together. All of them could clash briefly with admirals like Marco did. And Shiryu is still getting stronger.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 8, 2020)

bY ThAt LoGIc





VileNotice said:


> but everyone besides Beckman, who is a potential top tier, are incredibly close together.



What is your definition of "top tier"?


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## OG sama (Oct 8, 2020)

CaptainCommander said:


> So then Fujitora doesn't have some secret techniques either.



Dude I have no idea what you and Disco are trying to get at, there’s no such thing as a secret technique in this manga, if you mean he hasn’t gone all out sure, I can agree to that but if you are implying his full power is anywhere near Yonko level then this debate is over.


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## OG sama (Oct 8, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Be creative. There are things like awakening, advanced haki forms, advanced devil fruit mechanics etc.
> 
> I would not sleep on that guy just yet.



He could have an awakening and he probably does but that’s not moving the needle for him, he hasn’t went all out in the same way that King or any other FM not named Katakuri has gone all out.

Katakuri had Awakening + FS he didn’t have advanced CoA or anything too ridiculous, I expect Marco to already have Awakening but that’s about it. His fruit is already Hax beyond belief cause of its regen, like I said he isn’t here to show up SN he’s here to play support. 

I can tell you are expecting Marco to outshine those guys as if this is MF when Luffy and the others were weak. They don’t need Marco to babysit anymore he can help out and heal the Alliance and gives them another strong fighter who can hold his own that’s good enough.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 8, 2020)

OG sama said:


> then this debate is over.



That's not how it works.



OG sama said:


> I can tell you are expecting Marco to outshine those guys as if this is MF when Luffy and the others were weak. They don’t need Marco to babysit anymore he can help out and heal the Alliance and gives them another strong fighter who can hold his own that’s good enough.



What do you expect Marco to do?


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## VileNotice (Oct 8, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> bY ThAt LoGIc
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The biggest threats in the manga, who serve as the final benchmarks for the top combatants of the SH crew. Examples include Yonko, Admirals, and Mihawk. Probably Dragon. Basically one-man armies, who you always bet on dominating in a fight with someone who is not in the tier, even if said opponent is in top physical shape and has mastered haki and/or DF (characteristics of the high tier). 

Luffy is in the fuzzy area right now where he is probably approaching the low end of top tier but he hasn't shown off his current strength yet.


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## OG sama (Oct 8, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> That's not how it works.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you expect Marco to do?



I expect him to heal the Alliance because that’s what his fruit is best at which is giving support and I expect his awakening to be something that heals multiple people rather than it being some battle oriented awakening.

He isn’t here to outdo anyone, it’s just these stans that are living in 2011 thinking Marco needs to be the Alliances savior or something.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 8, 2020)

VileNotice said:


> The biggest threats in the manga, who serve as the final benchmarks for the top combatants of the SH crew. Examples include Yonko, Admirals, and Mihawk. Probably Dragon. Basically one-man armies, who you always bet on dominating in a fight with someone who is not in the tier, even if said opponent is in top physical shape and has mastered haki and/or DF (characteristics of the high tier).
> 
> Luffy is in the fuzzy area right now where he is probably approaching the low end of top tier but he hasn't shown off his current strength yet.



So anyone who doesn't give high diff or so to the strongest characters (Yonko, Admirals, Mihawk, Dragon etc) falls out? What if Shanks high diffs Beckman, do you think there is no one who falls into the category right below him?



OG sama said:


> I expect him to heal the Alliance because that’s what his fruit is best at which is giving support and I expect his awakening to be something that heals multiple people rather than it being some battle oriented awakening.
> 
> He isn’t here to outdo anyone, it’s just these stans that are living in 2011 thinking Marco needs to be the Alliances savior or something.



No it's not what his fruit is best at. He can heal minor injuries over a long period of time, that's it. That is a far cry from taking any attack and instantly regenerating.

If Marco fights and does well against King, who is Zoro's final, extreme difficulty fight. Does that mean Luffy will outshine Zoro and Marco equally?


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## VileNotice (Oct 8, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> So anyone who doesn't give high diff or so to the strongest characters (Yonko, Admirals, Mihawk, Dragon etc) falls out? What if Shanks high diffs Beckman, do you think there is no one who falls into the category right below him?


Based on the current (what I consider to be confirmed) top tiers there seems to be a big gap between categories. But there is definitely room for a low top tier that is based on characters who don't have as many obvious feats.

I'm referring to guys like Old Rayleigh, Old Sengoku, Gura Teach (before he became Yonko), Beckman, and potentially current Luffy who might fit that "low top tier" slot. It's just that it's hard to place them currently, as they don't fit a strict cohort like Yonko Commander or admiral.


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## Turrin (Oct 8, 2020)

Marco took an attacks from a stronger characters then Luffy (whose attacks on Katakuri were clearly effective), with minimal to no damage (Kizaru & Garp). He also overpowered Kizaru who is stronger then Karakuri. He also was trusted by WB to take on an Admiral and Gorosei thought Marco compared to the other Yonko to a certain extent and could stop a Yonko Candidate. This is all above Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Oct 8, 2020)

Just a quick rundown of Marco's feats put in their actual context:

He didnt tank an attack from kizaru anymore than wolverine would tank an attack from Luke Cage. Its called Regen, folks. 
Marco didnt "overpower" kizaru. Overpower would imply kizaru actually putting in an effort and not a half assed block with one hand.
Marco even with several other commanders could not stop one admiral. 
Marco was raised as a counter to Teach's rise to younko status. BUT THEN AGAIN, he had command over the WB pirates which was still a pretty huge force. Furthermore, he ended up losing, and not just losing, but losing in what was basically a completely onesided affair. 
Bottomline, Marco is decidedly not in anyway, comparable to a Younko.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 8, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> Just a quick rundown of Marco's feats put in their actual context:
> 
> Marco didnt "overpower" kizaru. Overpower would imply kizaru actually putting in an effort and not a half assed block with one hand.



That's not context, that's bias. You have no evidence Kizaru put no effort into that block. Given the fact that they were able to have a back and forth, it seems like they were both giving effort otherwise one would have instantly been launched back.

And did Marco kick with two legs? Lmfao.





> Marco even with several other commanders could not stop one admiral.



He stopped Akainu; What are you talking about?



> Marco was raised as a counter to Teach's rise to younko status. BUT THEN AGAIN, he had command over the WB pirates which was still a pretty huge force. Furthermore, he ended up losing, and not just losing, but losing in what was basically a completely onesided affair.



Cool, we heard that a billion times.


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## Kroczilla (Oct 8, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> That's not context, that's bias. You have no evidence Kizaru put no effort into that block. Given the fact that they were able to have a back and forth, it seems like they were both giving effort otherwise one would have instantly been launched back.



Kizaru was completely unharmed by the kick. Not to mention even marco implied that his kick wasnt at all effective against kizaru.





Shunsuiju said:


> He stopped Akainu; What are you talking about?




Cant post the manga panels but Akainu shat on the combined WB commanders including Marco and they couldnt stop him. But for Coby's intervention, Luffy would be dead.



Shunsuiju said:


> Cool, we heard that a billion times



Yeah well its the truth. But some of y'all still in denial apparently.

Didnt know marco had such dedicated fans


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## Sieves (Oct 10, 2020)

CaptainCommander said:


> Straight answer: Forum wanks Marines and hates on Luffy.


Really now? I thought Marco was more impressive precisely because he hasn't been beaten by Luffy yet.


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## RayanOO (Oct 20, 2020)

We all agree that Kata was stronger than Luffy during WCI and in a fair fight kata would have dusted Luffy. 

But beside all this, I think portrayal goes in Marco favor. The guy is singled out a lot, and highlight personally. 

- He fought in the 3 biggest wars we have seen in One piece : MF, Grudge war, and Wano war. 
- Neko asked for him personally for help, because he knew that Marco alone would make a difference.
- Shanks asked him to join his crew. 
- BM just showed some respect to Marco, saying he was someone important. 
- He was the first mate and right hand of WB, the king of the sea. 
- He was the only one who took charge of his crew as a captain. 
- He was one of the closest to Ace, the brother of the MC.
- He is a enemy and made war against one of the main bad guys in the manga, Teach. 
- He is the only commander who had a clashed with the 3 admirals and Garp.
- He is smart, the guy is a doctor, has navigation skills (draw maps as a child), and the VC hyped his knowledge. 
- He is the most relevant commander story wise for now (except Ace of course)

I think only Ben and Prime Shiryu has a shot being stronger than Marco

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## xmysticgohanx (Oct 20, 2020)

RayanOO said:


> We all agree that Kata was stronger than Luffy during WCI and in a fair fight kata would have dusted Luffy.


 I don’t agree to that


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## Heart Over Blade (Oct 20, 2020)

Kata would've dusted Luffy only before Luffy reached his end of WCI FS mastery. Luffy's endurance shits on Katakuri's as far as ability to take punishment goes. Most of the battle was Katakuri getting free hits on a Luffy that couldn't use FS. Luffy didn't even start their battle at 100% health. 
If Luffy fought him fresh with FS he takes it, extreme diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## RayanOO (Oct 20, 2020)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Kata would've dusted Luffy only before Luffy reached his end of WCI FS mastery. Luffy's endurance shits on Katakuri's as far as ability to take punishment goes. Most of the battle was Katakuri getting free hits on a Luffy that couldn't use FS. Luffy didn't even start their battle at 100% health.
> If Luffy fought him fresh with FS he takes it, extreme diff.



The thread is about Marco and Kata but lets digress a bit. 

Kata took 3 G4 hits for free because of the Merienda thing. 
Brulée allowed Luffy to run away from Kata after G4 time limit (huge weakness for Luffy). 
Kata stabbed himself to play fair. 
Even at the end Luffy FS was not at Kata level, and in base luffy took more hits than Kata. 
Kata wanted a manly brawl in the end, and put down Luffy on the ground and let him stand up each time. He even let him go snakeman. Kata saw what Luffy wanted to do and did nothing. 

Luffy won't end Kata in one G4 round and in G2/G3 he is inferior. Once G4 is done Luffy is done too. 10 min without haki in a fair match is too much of a weakness in a death match.


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## Heart Over Blade (Oct 20, 2020)

RayanOO said:


> Kata took 3 G4 hits for free because of the Merienda thing.
> Brulée allowed Luffy to run away from Kata after G4 time limit (huge weakness for Luffy).





RayanOO said:


> Luffy won't end Kata in one G4 round and in G2/G3 he is inferior. Once G4 is done Luffy is done too. 10 min without haki in a fair match is too much of a weakness in a death match.



Not really. Luffy could just run and recharge. Luffy was doing fairly well in base once he started awakening FS. Now that his FS is awakening, he would take even less damage while running to recharge.



RayanOO said:


> Kata stabbed himself to play fair.
> Even at the end Luffy FS was not at Kata level, and in base luffy took more hits than Kata.



Luffy got a few free hits thanks to the Merienda, but Katakuri was getting free hits for 80%-90% of a half a day long battle thanks to Luffy not having FS yet, against a Luffy that didn't even start the battle at 100%. Your example only proves my point that Luffy's endurance shits on Kata's. Kata got the sweeter end of the deal which he wouldn't have vs end of WCI Luffy.

Kata only stabbed himself because he had outside help to land his own stab, when Luffy at the time was awakening FS and already able to avoid or mitigate damage that would've been lethal. That Luffy hasn't even finished learning FS, so that incident has no bearing on a second fight where Luffy already mastered FS.

Luffy's FS didn't need to be at Kata level. He had snakeman to balance it out.



> Kata wanted a manly brawl in the end, and *put down Luffy on the ground and let him stand up each time.* He even let him go snakeman. Kata saw what Luffy wanted to do and did nothing.



Got manga panels of this? Either way, that doesn't matter.
 In a fight where Luffy already awakened FS, Kata wouldn't be able to stop Luffy from going FS. He can get into G4 while high in the air or running way.


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## RayanOO (Oct 20, 2020)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Got manga panels of this? Either way, that doesn't matter.



This was FS G4 less Luffy vs Kata





Heart Over Blade said:


> Not really. Luffy could just run and recharge. Luffy was doing fairly well in base once he started awakening FS. Now that his FS is awakening, he would take even less damage while running to recharge.



Once Luffy G4 Boundman ran out Kata was on his tail and was catching up on him, and once Kata will catch up a hakiless Luffy will be dead meat. Without Brulee it was the end.


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## Heart Over Blade (Oct 20, 2020)

RayanOO said:


> This was FS G4 less Luffy vs Kata



After Katakuri got free hits for the majority of the battle, sure. Luffy would be in a much better shape next time around with FS awakened.



RayanOO said:


> Once Luffy G4 Boundman ran out Kata was on his tail and was catching up on him, and once Kata will catch up a hakiless Luffy will be dead meat. Without Brulee it was the end.



That's pre-FS Luffy. Post FS Luffy even in base is harder to hit, as he proved later in the battle. Also, Luffy in G4 has better movement speed (not talking about reaction speed). He could start flying away much earlier to gain a much more significant head start.


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## RayanOO (Oct 20, 2020)

Heart Over Blade said:


> That's pre-FS Luffy. Post FS Luffy even in base is harder to hit, as he proved later in the battle.



Kata still scored more hits than Luffy in the end when Luffy had FS. Luffy FS was not at Kata level. Luffy was harder to hit and landed some hits during the brawl but Kata still landed more hits. (you can see the panels in the later part of the fights before Snakeman chap 894)

G4 or not overall Kata was superior to Luffy.

G2/G3 is not enough and Kata is superior, and G4 is enough but too short and after 10 minutes haki less.


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## Heart Over Blade (Oct 20, 2020)

RayanOO said:


> Kata still scored more hits than Luffy in the end when Luffy had FS. Luffy FS was not at Kata level. Luffy was harder to hit and landed some hits during the brawl but Kata still landed more hits. (you can see the panels in the later part of the fights before Snakeman chap 894)
> 
> 
> G4 or not overall Kata was superior to Luffy.



Kata only scored more hits against non-Snakeman Luffy, which doesn't mean much. Endurance wise Luffy shits on Kata. If they land equal number of hits Kata will be the first to go down.



> G2/G3 is not enough and Kata is superior, and G4 is enough but too short and after 10 minutes haki less.



Being superior to G2/G3 Luffy isn't enough to win against FS Luffy, especially when Luffy is out of reach for most of that 10 minute if Luffy decides to fly away to recharge much earlier. Luffy was carrying an adult someone and didn't even use G2 the last time he got away.


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## RayanOO (Oct 20, 2020)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Kata only scored more hits against non-Snakeman Luffy, which doesn't mean much.



yes it means something because Luffu will need Snakeman to even the game and G4 as a time limit. And one round of G4 is not enough at all to end Kata, so after that Kata punk Luffy. Kata in a normal match wont take 3 Boundman hits and a Mogura stab, he will outlast G4 1st round.

The G4 weakness is too much.

Snakeman didn't even overwhelm Kata. They were almost even. And Snakeman is much better than G2/G3 Luffy.



Heart Over Blade said:


> especially when Luffy is out of reach for most of that time.



What do you mean ?


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## Heart Over Blade (Oct 20, 2020)

RayanOO said:


> yes it means something because Luffu will need Snakeman to even the game and G4 as a time limit. And one round of G4 is not enough at all to end Kata, so after that Kata punk Luffy. Kata in a normal match wont take 3 Boundman hits and a Mogura stab, he will outlast G4 1st round.
> 
> The G4 weakness is too much.
> 
> Snakeman didn't even overwhelm Kata. They were almost even. And Snakeman is much better than G2/G3 Luffy.



Luffy with Snakeman doesn't just even the game. He wins it. Because Kata lost after two rounds of G4 and doesn't have nearly Luffy's amount of endurance. If base Luffy with FS could dodge and hit Katakuri at times, Boundman which is faster than base could do even more.



> What do you mean ?



I mean Kata wouldn't be able to do anything if Luffy is too far away, which he would be if Luffy already started gaining distance in G4 2-3 minutes before G4. Also



> Luffy was carrying an adult someone and didn't even use G2 the last time he got away.


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## RayanOO (Oct 20, 2020)

Heart Over Blade said:


> If they land equal number of hits Kata will be the first to go down.



They wont land the same number of hits at all in G2/G3, Kata will land more and more than Luffy. 

And I think you underestimate a bit Kata endurance here.

Luffy needs G4. 



Heart Over Blade said:


> especially when Luffy is out of reach for most of that 10 minute if Luffy decides to fly away to recharge much earlier.



So you think Kata will stay sit and will let Luffy escape. And if Luffy decides to stop G4 earlier (he doesn't fight like that usually) it also means that he will land less hits on Kata). And G4 tires Luffy.


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## Heart Over Blade (Oct 20, 2020)

RayanOO said:


> They wont land the same number of hits at all in G2/G3, Kata will land more and more than Luffy.
> 
> And I think you underestimate a bit Kata endurance here.
> 
> Luffy needs G4.



Luffy won't need to land the same number of hits in G2/G3. Because he'll be running away while in G2/G3. But Kata will go down much quicker this time when he does get back into G4. Canonically it only took 2 rounds of G4.




> So you think Kata will stay sit and will let Luffy escape. And if Luffy decides to stop G4 earlier (he doesn't fight like that usually) it also means that he will land less hits on Kata). And G4 tires Luffy.



Kata doesn't have a choice. As far as raw speed goes G4> Kata, as Kata was getting shit on without his FS.

No, Luffy isn't stopping G4 earlier. He's just using a small fraction of the G4 time to get away. No one will be landing hits during that time they are out of each other's range.[/quote][/QUOTE]


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## RayanOO (Oct 20, 2020)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Luffy was carrying an adult someone



What ? When does Luffy carried someone when escaping from Kata after Boundman ?

He didn't use G2 likely because he was too tired. And we don't use an hypothetical Luffy here, we must assume that if Luffy didn't use G2 its because he couldn't. Even if he was too dumb to do it, this is part of Luffy character.



Heart Over Blade said:


> Boundman which is faster than base could do even more.



Kata was dancing around Snakeman a mode faster than Boundman. And he managed to dodge snakeman, dont worry for Kata he will be able to handle Boundman. Luffy is not stupid if he didn't use Boundman (a stronger hitter mode) it is because he knew he needed speed and not power. A normal Kata with FS against Boundman, Kata will be on top : faster, more mobile. He will counter Boundman. Kata was without FS against Boundman last time.


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## Heart Over Blade (Oct 20, 2020)

RayanOO said:


> What ? When does Luffy carried someone when escaping from Kata after Boundman ?
> 
> He didn't use G2 likely because he was too tired. And we don't use an hypothetical Luffy here, we must assume that if Luffy didn't use G2 its because he couldn't. Even if he was too dumb to do it, this is part of Luffy character.



He didn't G2 because of plot, and because he didn't even need to. He was using G3 in that recharge period against BM's army. Nothing stops him from doing so next time, especially when his endurance wouldn't be getting taxed by Kata getting free hits most of the battle.'

Sounds like you concede that Luffy could've gained more distance if he flew away earlier in G4.



> Kata was dancing around Snakeman a mode faster than Boundman. And he managed to dodge snakeman, dont worry for Kata he will be able to handle Boundman. Luffy is not stupid if he didn't use Boundman (a stronger hitter mode) it is because he knew he needed speed and not power.



Kata can dance around Snakeman all he likes, but at the end of the day he took the same amount of hits as Snakeman and lost the battle.

The difference against boundman is, Kata can land a few more hits, but each hit he lands will do less damage and each time he gets hit will hurt mroe. Kata never fought Boundman + FS.


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## RayanOO (Oct 20, 2020)

Heart Over Blade said:


> He didn't G2 because of plot.



we can't use that here, plot is plot. We can say that Kata should have used his awakening to burry Luffy in the end but he didn't use it anymore. 

Luffy didn't use it, that's it. 



Heart Over Blade said:


> Kata never fought Boundman + FS.



yes because Luffy knew that Boundman was useless. With Power mochi countering G4 Boundman moves and shapeshift to dodge Kata will be barely hit if he is 100% focus. The fact that he danced around an attack like Black mamba or was fast enough to block a jet culverin full speed means that a Kong gun which is slower will be dodgeable for Kata. 

And don't act like G4 doesn't tire Luffy. And once again Kata won't stand still when Luffy will run away. Kata with flow mochi or donut mochi can be really fast. And 10 minutes without haki is too much. Luffy can't run away for 10 minutes straight. 



Here you can see that Kata flowing mochi could keep up somewhat with G4 Boundman speed


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 20, 2020)

Katakuri's only leg up he had on Luffy was a more mastered version of future sight. Luffy could match him in power with Gear four, and Katakuri's endurance is not Jack's. Same with his brother Cracker. It's not their specialty.

Point is, acting like Katakuri was significantly above Luffy overall is wrong. He and Cracker had a more prolonged state of being on or above Luffy's level, but neither were so far above him because they couldn't even beat him in 10+ hours. Fair enough, Katakuri was hindered by PIS, and Cracker was nerfed. But if Oda wanted them to be top tier, they would have truly 'dusted' him like Kaido did or Marco would.


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## RayanOO (Oct 20, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Katakuri's only leg up he had on Luffy was a more mastered version of future sight. Luffy could match him in power with Gear four, and Katakuri's endurance is not Jack's. Same with his brother Cracker. It's not their specialty.
> 
> Point is, acting like Katakuri was significantly above Luffy overall is wrong. He and Cracker had a more prolonged state of being on or above Luffy's level, but neither were so far above him that they could beat him in 10+ hours. Fair enough, Katakuri was hindered by PIS, and Cracker was nerfed. But if Oda wanted them to be top tier, they would have truly 'dusted' him like Kaido did.



I agree that at the end Luffy was not kilometers away from Kata but more advanced FS (for Kata) and G4 time limit (for Luffy) are Luffy's downfall. In a fair fight Kata would have needed great efforts but would have beat end of WCI Luffy.


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## Heart Over Blade (Oct 20, 2020)

RayanOO said:


> we can't use that here, plot is plot. We can say that Kata should have used his awakening to burry Luffy in the end but he didn't use it anymore.
> 
> Luffy didn't use it, that's it.



I don't think you understood what can't be used here. Plot is what can't be used here in the battledome. So there is nothing stopping Luffy from going G2 in a hypothetical rematch. As for Katakuri not burying Luffy back then, Katakuri obviously has a range limit and he also barely had time to react. Or maybe he realized trying to bury Luffy wouldn't make it in time. You can also call it PIS, but then you'd have to accept that Luffy not going G2 was also PIS.

In any case, Luffy got away just fine without G2, so he didn't even need to use it. Since he ended up conserving energy and didn't need to use it then you have no basis for saying he couldn't. If he could still use G3 then he could also use G2.

You know it's plot then nothing stops Luffy from using it in this hypothetical matchup.



RayanOO said:


> yes because Luffy knew that Boundman was useless. With Power mochi countering G4 Boundman moves and shapeshift to dodge Kata will be barely hit if he is 100% focus. The fact that he danced around an attack like Black mamba or was fast enough to block a jet culverin full speed means that a Kong gun which is slower will be dodgeable for Kata.



Yet, Katakuri with FS could still get tagged and dodged by Luffy in base once he awakened FS, and we know Boundman is much faster than base Luffy. Your panels from Pre-FS Luffy proves nothing about how he would fare vs FS + Boundman.

Either way, Snakeman is the best mode to fight Katakuri and Luffy beats him with it, again, by having much better ability to endure damage while negating Katakuri's FS advantage with the speed boost from Snakeman.



> And don't act like G4 doesn't tire Luffy. And once again Kata won't stand still when Luffy will run away. Kata with flow mochi or donut mochi can be really fast. And 10 minutes without haki is too much. *Luffy can't run away for 10 minutes straight*.
> 
> 
> 
> Here you can see that Kata flowing mochi could keep up somewhat with G4 Boundman speed



Luffy fought for half a day. Running for 10 minutes is nothing. You're acting like we're still in Dressrosa and that while recharging G4 Luffy didn't proceed to get away from Katakuri, BM's army and BM herself while carrying someone roughly his size. Anyone with reading comprehension could see he still had stamina to spare.

Kata with flowing mochi didn't show anything to suggest it could surpass G4 in movement speed. When neither one had access to FS, Boundman's speed was shitting on Katakuri's. It was raw speed vs raw speed without the aid of precognition and Boundman was much faster. In their chase, Katakuri only started closing distance when Luffy was reverting/reverted to base, even then he wasn't fast enough to get to Luffy. So if Luffy starts flying away in G4 minutes in advance and then uses G2 to keep running, nothing suggests Kata would catch up in a few short minutes.


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## Milkomeda (Oct 20, 2020)

Id argue Marcos devil fruit is superior but apart from that probably just clout from being in Whitebeards crew.


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## Sherlōck (Oct 21, 2020)

Even after the end of the fight Karakuri had superior CoO & CoA. Luffy's saving grace was Brulee and endurance.


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## Corax (Oct 21, 2020)

I am quite sure that current Luffy can beat Kata. But I am not sure that Luffy can beat Marco because of his great regen.


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## RossellaFiamingo (Oct 21, 2020)

Marco will have to showcase Advanced Haki, Awakening and COC to be equal to Katakuri the same goes for other FM except Beckman.
Katakuri vs Luffy's standard in the YC1 region. Luffy's standard and opponents will always be stronger than that of others. King for all he has been wanked has been unimpressive and dull and isn't nearly as important as Katakuri. I like Marco so I think hes likely #2 behind Kata who Oda has gone out of his way to highlight just how special he is.


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## xmysticgohanx (Oct 21, 2020)

This thread is easy, the main reason Katakuri lost even though he started off with superior haki is because of Luffy’s endurance

Guess what Marco’s fruit is made for?


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 22, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> This thread is easy, the main reason Katakuri lost even though he started off with superior haki is because of Luffy’s endurance
> 
> Guess what Marco’s fruit is made for?



B-But he isn't clairvoyant... and his awakening is mainly for support Kappa

Reactions: Like 1


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## OG sama (Oct 22, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> B-But he isn't clairvoyant... and his awakening is mainly for support Kappa



Like I said before, just a difference in abilities, Kata has FS great for avoiding attacks all together and Marco has Regen great for tanking.


This is stuff that most people who use their brain already knows. WCI proved that Katakuri didn’t have great endurance, and every FM specializes in different things.

You once again have failed at proving Marco is Admiral level.

Reactions: Like 2


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## killfox (Oct 24, 2020)

Something I just thought about is that Katakuri seemed less impressive because Luffy beat him. Luffy only beat him because Katakuri inflicted massive damage on himself. Before attacking himself he no sold everything Luffy had.

This is like WB before getting stabbed vs after getting stabbed only in the WB case imagine WB stabbing himself. Of course you’d have a better chance of winning when a stronger opponent intentionally hurts themselves.

I would put full health Katakuri above Luffy. If they fought again no interruptions currently Kay would probably win. New CoA is meaningless when u can’t hit the enemy and Luffy would need snake man to have a chance as regular bound man ain’t cutting it.

This being said Marco has shown higher endurance, greater speed and more solid feats against stronger people


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## Cursemark (Oct 24, 2020)

killfox said:


> Something I just thought about is that Katakuri seemed less impressive because Luffy beat him. Luffy only beat him because Katakuri inflicted massive damage on himself. Before attacking himself he no sold everything Luffy had.
> 
> This is like WB before getting stabbed vs after getting stabbed only in the WB case imagine WB stabbing himself. Of course you’d have a better chance of winning when a stronger opponent intentionally hurts themselves.
> 
> ...


Katakuri injuring himself was not the cause of his defeat. He only made the scale what it was supposed to be in the first place. The critical hits he got on Luffy weren't supposed to happen. Flampe tilted the battle in his favor.

Defeating Luffy like that would delegitimize his win which is why he did it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## killfox (Oct 24, 2020)

Cursemark said:


> *Katakuri injuring himself was not the cause of his defeat*. He only made the scale what it was supposed to be in the first place. The critical hits he got on Luffy weren't supposed to happen. Flampe tilted the battle in his favor.
> 
> Defeating Luffy like that would delegitimize his win which is why he did it.


So your saying he would have still lost if he didn’t stab himself? Like it or not he didn’t take much if any damage before getting stabbed. After he got stabbed he started taking hits. 

Also this is another reason Marco is more impressive. An attack of that level even self inflicted wouldn’t do anything to slow Marco down. This is why Marco is superior.


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## killfox (Oct 24, 2020)

Also to quote myself “*This is like WB before getting stabbed vs after getting stabbed only in the WB case imagine WB stabbing himself. Of course you’d have a better chance of winning when a stronger opponent intentionally hurts themselves.*“ 

Katakuri literally did more damage to himself than Luffy had done up to him up to that point. Katakuri held the advantage even without his sister’s interference.

Imagine Luffy vs Kaido in a similar situation. Let’s say Luffy says some BS about oden and Kaido slashes open his old wound as some sort of repayment then continues to fight Luffy. Would you not factor in Kaidos self inflicted wound to his defeat?


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## VileNotice (Oct 24, 2020)

killfox said:


> *I would put full health Katakuri above Luffy. If they fought again no interruptions currently Kay would probably win*. New CoA is meaningless when u can’t hit the enemy and Luffy would need snake man to have a chance as regular bound man ain’t cutting it.
> 
> This being said Marco has shown higher endurance, greater speed and more solid feats against stronger people



Current Luffy beats Katakuri, King, and Marco for that matter.


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## killfox (Oct 24, 2020)

VileNotice said:


> Current Luffy beats Katakuri, King, and Marco for that matter.


Oda showed Katakuri almost kill Luffy with barely any diff and and went to go eat donuts. He even commented on how he should have killed him for sure right there. This is  literally Oda telling us that Katakuri would have won with no PIS or CIS. Also what does Current Luffy have that Katakuri can’t fight against? Luffy has stronger CoA but Katakuri has better future sight and strength doesn’t matter if you can’t connect. 

Idk how strong King is do I can’t comment.

How exactly does Luffy beat Marco? Akainus Magma fist and Kizaru lazer barrage are stronger then anything Luffy has ever done and Marco could literally close the distance between him and  Kizaru while being lazered.


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## OG sama (Oct 24, 2020)

killfox said:


> Oda showed Katakuri almost kill Luffy with barely any diff and and went to go eat donuts. He even commented on how he should have killed him for sure right there. This is  literally Oda telling us that Katakuri would have won with no PIS or CIS. Also what does Current Luffy have that Katakuri can’t fight against? Luffy has stronger CoA but Katakuri has better future sight and strength doesn’t matter if you can’t connect.
> 
> Idk how strong King is do I can’t comment.
> 
> How exactly does Luffy beat Marco? Akainus Magma fist and Kizaru lazer barrage are stronger then anything Luffy has ever done and Marco could literally close the distance between him and  Kizaru while being lazered.



Kata ain’t stronger than the Current Luffy in any area you must be smoking. And better FS? Maybe equal at best, Luffy isn’t always on his guard like Kata is so he doesn’t really use it unless it would really matter.

In a hypothetical rematch you can bet he’s using everything to beat Kata who would have nothing new up his sleeve. While Luffy would have FS down pat from the beginning which he didn’t have when he first fought Katakuri and Advanced CoA which is really OP.

-Luffy was already stronger than Katakuri attack wise with Boundman and Advanced CoA makes his attack power even greater now. Which he should be able to combine with any Gear form not just G4 so no need for multiple G4 usages because he can hurt Katakuri without G4.

-An Improved G4 time limit, which from the looks of it is mastered to the same degree that G2 and G3 are used which means he can probably use it all the time with no noticeable drawbacks.

-FS should be close if not equal at best, Luffy is treating a foe like Katakuri serious enough to be using it at all times, and before even being great at it he was landing attacks on him, how would that change now when his mastery over it is greater than it was an arc ago?

-He was already more durable than Kata on WCI, and that’s probably even more so now since he’s going to be fighting Kaido and he has added defenses from both FS and Barrier CoA.

-Advanced CoA takes a big ass dump on Katas trash endurance and durability.

-This also isn’t even taking into consideration a possible awakening or New Gear form this arc.

So basically the only advantage that Katakuri could have against the Current Luffy is FS and that’s probably not even an advantage no more.

Current Luffy beats Katakuri and any FM decisively at this point and that includes Marco.

Luffy isn’t about to fight Kaido and be less impressive than a FM anyway especially when he beat one an arc ago, like that’s absolutely retarded.


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## VileNotice (Oct 24, 2020)

killfox said:


> Oda showed Katakuri almost kill Luffy with barely any diff and and went to go eat donuts. He even commented on how he should have killed him for sure right there. This is  literally Oda telling us that Katakuri would have won with no PIS or CIS. Also what does Current Luffy have that Katakuri can’t fight against? Luffy has stronger CoA but Katakuri has better future sight and strength doesn’t matter if you can’t connect.
> 
> Idk how strong King is do I can’t comment.
> 
> How exactly does Luffy beat Marco? Akainus Magma fist and Kizaru lazer barrage are stronger then anything Luffy has ever done and Marco could literally close the distance between him and  Kizaru while being lazered.


I don't agree the donut thing showed Katakuri would have killed him, it showed that he made a tactical error due to underestimating one of Luffy's more unorthodox skills (eating), and this is an error that he made despite his future sight. You can argue about all the PIS in that fight but ultimately Oda had Luffy defeat a Yonko first mate because he had to set him up to go against an actual Yonko in the next arc. If he was indeed weaker than Katakuri it was by a tiny amount and a result of him not awakening future sight until partway through the fight.

Anyway I'm scaling current Luffy as a character who is going to fight Kaido, likely one-on-one for at least part of the fight. His advanced CoA would not only do more damage to Katakuri internally than before but it now creates an outward shockwave from his strikes, which on top of Luffy's baseline future sight would make it very difficult for Katakuri to consistently dodge. 

As for Marco, imo he would have lost in a prolonged fight against any admiral (mid diff at that), and Luffy's new offense would wear him down too, just more slowly (more high diff).

Luffy is a low top tier at this point, he's going to have a major upgrade in performance once he starts his real fight just like he did against Doflamingo, and similar to that instance he is concealing his true power until the moment comes. His Udon training and subsequent haki practice is the most intense power boost Luffy has gotten since the timeskip, which will be fully revealed against Kaido.

Reactions: Like 2


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

VileNotice said:


> I don't agree the donut thing showed Katakuri would have killed him, it showed that he made a tactical error due to underestimating one of Luffy's more unorthodox skills (eating), and this is an error that he made despite his future sight. You can argue about all the PIS in that fight but ultimately Oda had Luffy defeat a Yonko first mate because he had to set him up to go against an actual Yonko in the next arc. If he was indeed weaker than Katakuri it was by a tiny amount and a result of him not awakening future sight until partway through the fight.
> 
> Anyway I'm scaling current Luffy as a character who is going to fight Kaido, likely one-on-one for at least part of the fight. His advanced CoA would not only do more damage to Katakuri internally than before but it now creates an outward shockwave from his strikes, which on top of Luffy's baseline future sight would make it very difficult for Katakuri to consistently dodge.
> 
> ...



Mofos don’t realize how ridiculous Advanced CoA is, look at what the Scabbards have been able to accomplish against Kaido with it. And Luffy has an even higher application of that form of Haki than any of the others do. And he’s got more raw power than they do without it, so imagine Luffy combining it with his Gears for even more power than he already had in boundman.

He should also likely be able to put up a barrier similar to what the Admirals did on MF as that’s literally one of the first things old man Hyo tried to teach him on Udon but was unsuccessful early into his training. Now that’s he’s finished, that barrier is going to be good enough to stop attacks from Kaido most likely.

Another thing peeps don’t take into consideration is that no one focused in on Marco specifically during MF. They threw attacks at him that were obviously half assed as none of the Admirals had to even try during the War except when Akainu fought WB.

In a one on one fight, how is Marco dealing with Advanced CoA attacks that attack him from within completely bypassing his regen. Luffys not going to even give him the time to keep healing, as it has a limit and once Luffy figures that out Marco is done as Luffy won’t let up on the offensive.

Reactions: Like 1


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## VileNotice (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Mofos don’t realize how ridiculous Advanced CoA is, look at what the Scabbards have been able to accomplish against Kaido with it. And Luffy has an even higher application of that form of Haki than any of the others do. And he’s got more raw power than they do without it, so imagine Luffy combining it with his Gears for even more power than he already had in boundman.
> 
> He should also likely be able to put up a barrier similar to what the Admirals did on MF as that’s literally one of the first things old man Hyo tried to teach him on Udon but was unsuccessful early into his training. Now that’s he’s finished, that barrier is going to be good enough to stop attacks from Kaido most likely.
> 
> ...


Yeah I'm honestly more hyped to see Luffy in action now than any other time in the manga lol. Also probably the first time I'm more intrigued as to his moveset vs his opponent's since Kaido is already pulling stuff out against the scabbards.


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## Heart Over Blade (Oct 25, 2020)

Current Luffy is faster than Katakuri. He was keeping up with Katakuri's superior FS with a combination of lower level FS + Snakeman. Now that he has more advanced  FS that could see several moves into the future, and better base stats from training and fighting, Katakuri will be the one struggling to keep up with Snakeman + FS. Even if they land equal amount of hits Katakuri will fall much quicker than Luffy due to their vast difference in endurance and lethality of CoA 3.0.


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

VileNotice said:


> Yeah I'm honestly more hyped to see Luffy in action now than any other time in the manga lol. Also probably the first time I'm more intrigued as to his moveset vs his opponent's since Kaido is already pulling stuff out against the scabbards.



Considering Luffy was one shot material for Kaido before and there’s no way Kaido isn’t still landing a bazillion blows on him in the final fight expect a ridiculous power boost from Luffy.

These same attacks that are about to end the Scabbards in one blow, Luffy will most definitely be taking plenty of them.

Unless fools think Oda is going to draw a fight in which Luffy takes no damage from a freaking Yonko this is a given.

So yeah, im pretty excited as well lol. We are going to see just how good that training has been for him.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Mofos don’t realize how ridiculous Advanced CoA is, look at what the Scabbards have been able to accomplish against Kaido with it. And Luffy has an even higher application of that form of Haki than any of the others do. And he’s got more raw power than they do without it, so imagine Luffy combining it with his Gears for even more power than he already had in boundman.
> 
> He should also likely be able to put up a barrier similar to what the Admirals did on MF as that’s literally one of the first things old man Hyo tried to teach him on Udon but was unsuccessful early into his training. Now that’s he’s finished, that barrier is going to be good enough to stop attacks from Kaido most likely.
> 
> Another thing peeps don’t take into consideration is that no one focused in on Marco specifically during MF. They threw attacks at him that were obviously half assed as none of the Admirals had to even try during the War except when Akainu fought WB.



Sabo also has COA3. I bet that a whole load of people also have COA3. Especially swordsmen who are stronger than the Scabbards.



> In a one on one fight, how is Marco dealing with Advanced CoA attacks that attack him from within completely bypassing his regen.



Explain. And no I don't want to talk about how Big Mom is underestimating the new generation.


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Sabo also has COA3. I bet that a whole load of people also have COA3. Especially swordsmen who are stronger than the Scabbards.
> 
> 
> 
> Explain. And no I don't want to talk about how Big Mom is underestimating the new generation.



Ok and? And even if this was true, which I don’t think it is, it’s really got nothing to do with my point. We know for sure Kata doesn’t have it, and that’s what I’m debating. I’m not debating hypotheticals right now.

What exactly is there to explain? How is Marco healing his insides? And assuming he can, how does he stop a relentless amount of those attacks? 

I like how you quote that but not my whole take on Marco, if Marco is being focused in on specifically, the Admirals will wear out his regen. When Garp hit Marcos ass with a get back punch he went flying. CoA 2.0 and CoA 3.0 should work just fine.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Ok and? And even if this was true, which I don’t think it is, it’s really got nothing to do with my point. We know for sure Kata doesn’t have it, and that’s what I’m debating. I’m not debating hypotheticals right now.



I'm just sayin'.



> What exactly is there to explain? How is Marco healing his insides? And assuming he can, how does he stop a relentless amount of those attacks?
> 
> I like how you quote that but not my whole take on Marco, *if Marco is being focused in on specifically, the Admirals will wear out his regen. When Garp hit Marcos ass with a get back punch he went flying.* CoA 2.0 and CoA 3.0 should work just fine.



What makes his 'insides' different from his 'outsides'? He's able to heal his body after being completely blown up by Kizaru's lasers. It's pretty obvious the upper limit of his fruit is nigh limitless.

When did this happen?

Like when Aokiji's 'ass' was sent flying?


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> I'm just sayin'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So he can heal his insides, thats cool but how is he stopping a relentless onslaught of CoA 2.0 and 3.0 attacks? He maybe able to regenerate attacks from within but his regen has a limit, and a limit that Luffy is more than equipped to exhaust.

Garp punched Marco during MF and it managed to cause him damage, he healed afterwards but if Garp can throw one punch that can bypass Marcos regen, and I bet it was CoA 2.0 that was being used. So just imagine multiple relentless attacks being focused at Marco.

Luffys going to see Marcos every move due to FS and is going to have the speed and strength to harm him with Gears and CoA 2.0 and 3.0. He has no chance at beating this Current Luffy, when Luffy figures out Marcos regen has a limit which he will, it’s curtains for him.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> He maybe able to regenerate attacks from within but his regen has a limit, and a limit that Luffy is more than equipped to exhaust.



Everyone has a limit. That's not an argument.



> Garp punched Marco during MF and it managed to cause him damage, he healed afterwards but if Garp can throw one punch that can bypass Marcos regen, and I bet it was CoA 2.0 that was being used. So just imagine multiple relentless attacks being focused at Marco.




*Spoiler*: __ 








Marco can take damage. If he can survive Garp's punch and have prolonged fights with Admirals, he should capable of lasting 12 rounds with Luffy like Kaido, the Admirals, etc. can.

I'm just taking a swing in the dark though.



> Luffys going to see Marcos every move due to FS and is going to have the speed and strength to harm him with Gears and CoA 2.0 and 3.0. He has no chance at beating this Current Luffy, when Luffy figures out Marcos regen has a limit which he will, it’s curtains for him.



We'll see how Kaido deals with FS and make our assessment on Marco's chances.

Your Marco downplay is curtains.


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## killfox (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Mofos don’t realize how ridiculous Advanced CoA is, look at what the Scabbards have been able to accomplish against Kaido with it. And Luffy has an even higher application of that form of Haki than any of the others do. And he’s got more raw power than they do without it, so imagine Luffy combining it with his Gears for even more power than he already had in boundman.
> 
> He should also likely be able to put up a barrier similar to what the Admirals did on MF as that’s literally one of the first things old man Hyo tried to teach him on Udon but was unsuccessful early into his training. Now that’s he’s finished, that barrier is going to be good enough to stop attacks from Kaido most likely.
> 
> ...


I addressed the advanced haki thing in another thread yes its stronger than normal but BM punched through Luffys haki with no memory, DF, or haki of her own. Even if Luffy had mastered the haki he wouldnt be able to stop BM in base form. 

Addressing the bolded. Marco was fast enough to intercept Kizarus lazers after they were fired and protect Whitebeard. Thats an insane speedfeat. Your making it sound like Marco will be helpless and will just sit there and take hits until his regen hits his limit which is clearly not the case. Marco still has full hybrid form which we havent seen and likely awakening. Also Lol at saying the CoA will bypass his regen. Marco was hit by seastone and shot through the chest with 2 lazers. He survived long enought for the cuffs to be removed and right when the seastone cuffs came off he healed. Luffys CoA will not NEGATE Marcos regeneration as your impying, Luffy isnt BB who can negate your powers as long as hes touching you


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Everyone has a limit. That's not an argument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok...

You see this is the whole issue with your wank. You are assuming Marco can take an entire onslaught from Admirals and Yonkos when that’s not what’s been shown. He took a single attack from Kizaru. You must be forgetting that MF was a big ass war, the Admirals weren’t dialed in specifically on Marco so the upper limits of his regen weren’t going to be shown. But what is Marco going to do when he is the focus? This will be you Marco fanboys downfall, the reality is, Marco wasn’t the focus during MF when he has to fight someone 1v1 he won’t look nearly as impressive as you think because his regen isn’t going to hold up all day, especially not against Luffy who has the tools to exhaust it.


Marco is no Kaido and you are delusional to think otherwise. 

It’s the other way around trust me, Marco won’t be nearly as impressive as you think. You expect him to be Admiral level and a peer to Kaido? Lol, prepare to be very disappointed then. Like I have said before, Marco is FM level and there’s nothing wrong with that believing otherwise at this point in the story is just being a delusional fan.


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

killfox said:


> I addressed the advanced haki thing in another thread yes its stronger than normal but BM punched through Luffys haki with no memory, DF, or haki of her own. Even if Luffy had mastered the haki he wouldnt be able to stop BM in base form.
> 
> Addressing the bolded. Marco was fast enough to intercept Kizarus lazers after they were fired and protect Whitebeard. Thats an insane speedfeat. Your making it sound like Marco will be helpless and will just sit there and take hits until his regen hits his limit which is clearly not the case. Marco still has full hybrid form which we havent seen and likely awakening. Also Lol at saying the CoA will bypass his regen. Marco was hit by seastone and shot through the chest with 2 lazers. He survived long enought for the cuffs to be removed and right when the seastone cuffs came off he healed. Luffys CoA will not NEGATE Marcos regeneration as your impying, Luffy isnt BB who can negate your powers as long as hes touching you



You can’t prove anything like that, Luffy wasn’t able to take a base attack from her at all with his Haki because he failed to use that barrier Haki at all, that’s what you don’t realize. When Luffy attempted to use it early in his training, he failed to use it at all, after the training he should be able to use it and it should be much better. It may not be strong enough to stop every attack from her but it’s good enough of a defense against her to keep him in the fight as even when he failed to use it him and Old man Hyo still survived and Luffy at least was relatively fine.

We have seen his full hybrid form... the only thing we haven’t seen from him is an Awakening, which given that he is a healer what exactly is it going to do? More healing? I’m willing to bet his awakening is more of him being able to heal multiple people than it will be a combat oriented awakening. He can’t heal multiple people in regular Zoan form but maybe his awakening will be able to, maybe he gives the samurai regen cloaks or something.

Advanced CoA may not be able to negate the regen but a full onslaught from it will certainly exhaust his regen. That’s really all I’m saying, Garp hit him with one punch which I bet was CoA 2.0 and Marco felt that better than any attack that Kizaru or any Admiral through at him. Basically what I’m trying to say is, CoA 2.0 and 3.0 is the perfect counter to Marcos regen. We don’t even know if Kizarus lasers can even be coated in Haki or if they were. They weren’t no where near his strongest attacks, but a Haki coated punch was more effective against Marco, that means something and Luffy is a hand to hand specialists with the highest level of CoA.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Ok...
> 
> You see this is the whole issue with your wank. *You are assuming Marco can take an entire onslaught from Admirals and Yonkos when that’s not what’s been shown.* He took a single attack from Kizaru. You must be forgetting that MF was a big ass war, the Admirals weren’t dialed in specifically on Marco so the upper limits of his regen weren’t going to be shown. But what is Marco going to do when he is the focus? This will be you Marco fanboys downfall, the reality is, Marco wasn’t the focus during MF when he has to fight someone 1v1 he won’t look nearly as impressive as you think because his regen isn’t going to hold up all day, especially not against Luffy who has the tools to exhaust it.
> 
> ...



You're the one assuming that he can't.

My opinion is that Marco can give a pretty good fight to most people not named Roger or Whitebeard. Nothing more, nothing less. What is wrong with that?


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Marco is FM level and there’s nothing wrong with that believing otherwise at this point in the story is just being a delusional fan.




So he's Beckman, Katakuri and King level at the same time?

You're just dodging.

Name the difficulty for:
Big Mom vs Katakuri
Big Mom vs Marco
Big Mom vs Beckman
Big Mom vs King
And I'll see where you're coming from.


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> You're the one assuming that he can't.
> 
> My opinion is that Marco can give a pretty good fight to most people not named Roger or Whitebeard. Nothing more, nothing less. What is wrong with that?



So in a 1v1 fight with an Admiral or a Yonko you are telling me that Marco is taking attacks from guys of that level for hours without his regen being exhausted? 

That’s not what your opinion is, you believe Marco is Admiral level and you have made that clear as day that’s where you believe he’s at.

I respectfully disagree, and I don’t think your opinion is going to change no matter what I say. *sigh*


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> So in a 1v1 fight with an Admiral or a Yonko you are telling me that Marco is taking attacks from guys of that level for hours without his regen being exhausted?
> 
> That’s not what your opinion is, you believe Marco is Admiral level and you have made that clear as day that’s where you believe he’s at.
> 
> I respectfully disagree, and I don’t think your opinion is going to change no matter what I say. *sigh*



That's what Admiral level means - "pretty good fight".


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> So he's Beckman, Katakuri and King level at the same time?
> 
> You're just dodging.
> 
> ...



Ughhh yes I do... and I fail to see how that’s a problem.... those are FMs are they not? I think Beckman could be a level higher than the others but I can’t prove that really as he is almost featless but anyhow...

Katakuri and King lose low difficulty, Marco is probably going to manage mid because his fruit is perfect for stalling but that’s just goes to show how important abilities are. It doesn’t make him stronger than Katakuri and King, his fruit regens damage and theirs doesn’t. Katakuri could maybe push to mid if he’s evading attacks from her with FS but none of these guys are pushing BM, so giving her mid diff is really like giving her no diff at all. They can’t hurt her, they can only hope to stall her out to up the difficultly before she kills them. Need to see more from King but I’m guessing he specializes in lethality and thus he gives her the easiest win because he’s an offensive fighter compared to them.

Beckman could be high diff but once again, I can’t prove that.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

My definition of Admiral level for the purposes of discussion is if you can give - say - mid diff to anyone not named Whitebeard, Roger, maybe Rayleigh and Garp.



OG sama said:


> Ughhh yes I do... and I fail to see how that’s a problem.... those are FMs are they not? I think Beckman could be a level higher than the others but I can’t prove that really as he is almost featless but anyhow...
> 
> Katakuri and King lose low difficulty, Marco is probably going to manage mid because his fruit is perfect for stalling but that’s just goes to show how important abilities are. It doesn’t make him stronger than Katakuri and King, his fruit regens damage and theirs doesn’t. Katakuri could maybe push to mid if he’s evading attacks from her with FS but none of these guys are pushing BM, so giving her mid diff is really like giving her no diff at all. They can’t hurt her, they can only hope to stall her out to up the difficultly before she kills them. Need to see more from King but I’m guessing he specializes in lethality and this he gives her the easiest win because he’s an offensive fighter compared to them.
> 
> Beckman could be high diff but once again, I can’t prove that.



So...

Big Mom vs Katakuri = Low
Big Mom vs Marco = Mid
Big Mom vs Beckman = High
Big Mom vs King = Low

But someone Marco is equal to all of them.

I don't-


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> My definition of Admiral level for the purposes of discussion is if you can give - say - mid diff to anyone not named Whitebeard, Roger, maybe Rayleigh and Garp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Mid diff ain’t shit, that’s not a fight at all. Ain’t no Top Tier mid diffing another Top Tier.

Sounds like you need to go reread, he gives her more difficulty because his fruit heals. It’s pretty simple logic man.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Sounds like you need to go reread, he gives her more difficulty because his fruit heals. It’s pretty simple logic man.



Yes... So without his fruit it would be low?

And I assume it's the same for *pft* Kizaru? Can I hear the logical argument for that then?


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Yes... So without his fruit it would be low?
> 
> And I assume it's the same for *pft* Kizaru? Can I hear the logical argument for that then?



It’s probably no diff then because he’s been shown to be pretty reliant on his fruit. Sure, taking two laser beams to the chest from Kizaru is a good feat but wasn’t Pre skip Luffy taking light speed kicks from Kizaru and walking away just fine? MF was a gigantic mess as far as feats go.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> It’s probably no diff then because he’s been shown to be pretty reliant on his fruit. Sure, taking two laser beams from the chest from Kizaru is a good feat but wasn’t Pre skip Luffy taking light speed kicks from Kizaru and walking away just fine? *MF was a gigantic mess as far as feats go.*



Deflect, deflect, deflect. You didn't answer my question. If you won't, there's no point in continuing.

No it wasn't.


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Deflect, deflect, deflect. You didn't answer my question. If you won't, there's no point in continuing.
> 
> No it wasn't.



For Kizaru it’s probably the same or they do better depending on if Kizaru has a serious side to him, this is the same guy that failed to kill a single pre skip SN in sabaody even though he really should have been capable, Rayleigh saved the SHs but how do you explain Drake, Hawkins, Urouge, and Apoo all surviving against him?

How am I deflecting when I brought up a reasonable argument? How do you explain Luffy surviving those kicks from Kizaru pre skip but yet Post TS Luffy gets one shotted by Kaido??


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> For Kizaru it’s probably the same or they do better depending on if Kizaru has a serious side to him, this is the same guy that failed to kill a single pre skip SN in sabaody even though he really should have been capable, Rayleigh saved the SHs but how do you explain Drake, Hawkins, Urouge, and Apoo all surviving against him?
> 
> How am I deflecting when I brought up a reasonable argument? How do you explain Luffy surviving those kicks from Kizaru pre skip but yet Post TS Luffy gets one shotted by Kaido??



I asked you how Kizaru would fodderize Marco. You have given no argument. Again, if you can't, I am willing to take your concession and tears.


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> I asked you how Kizaru would fodderize Marco. You have given no argument. Again, if you can't, I am willing to take your concession and tears.



He can’t fodderize him but how in tf does that change anything?

And from what’s been shown if you want to go that route, Kizaru hasn’t been shown capable of even KOing Pre Skip Novas the way Kaido or BM could.

BM and Kaidos feats are >>> Kizarus

So really how does that change my argument? It doesn’t, Marco still isn’t Admiral level and his fruit is perfect for stalling which is why he gives Yonkos and Admirals more difficulty imo.

Like stop being a baby and bring a real argument to the damn table.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> He can’t fodderize him but how in tf does that change anything?



I'm sorry if I can't keep up with how much you change your mind. 
I'll ask again; Without his fruit, how much difficulty does Marco give to Kizaru?


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> I'm sorry if I can't keep up with how much you change your mind.
> I'll ask again; Without his fruit, how much difficulty does Marco give to Kizaru?



Probably none lol, he takes those two laser beams and doesn’t die immediately as per canon but has no answer for anything else. His fruit made him pesky, he’s probably still strong without it but not Sabo pre Mera strong or anything like that.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Probably none lol, he takes those two laser beams and doesn’t die immediately as per canon but has no answer for anything else. His fruit made him pesky, *he’s probably still strong without it but not Sabo pre Mera strong or anything like that.*


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

But can you prove me wrong though? What has Marco done outside of his fruit besides take laser beams that pre skip SNs managed to survive.

Pre ts Luffy took multiple kicks from Kizaru man and you acting like I’m being difficult no this is shit you can find in the story I’m not making up shit.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> But can you prove me wrong though? What has Marco done outside of his fruit besides take laser beams that pre skip SNs managed to survive.
> 
> Pre ts Luffy took multiple kicks from Kizaru man and you acting like I’m being difficult no this is shit you can find in the story I’m not making up shit.



He kicked Kizaru through his guard, fought Kizaru and Akainu, was not afraid of fighting Kizaru or Akainu; Whitebeard knew he could fight Akainu or Kizaru. Had to be defeated by Kizaru on a technicality.


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## OG sama (Oct 25, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> He kicked Kizaru through his guard, fought Kizaru and Akainu, was not afraid of fighting Kizaru or Akainu; Whitebeard knew he could fight Akainu or Kizaru, had to be defeated by Kizaru on a technicality.



You can say this same thing for Jozu and Vista, and Jozu seemed to be in the same boat until he got distracted, only difference is his fruit cant heal so he lost his arm.

None of this proves he’s Admiral level.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

OG sama said:


> You can say this same thing for Jozu and Vista, and Jozu seemed to be in the same boat until he got distracted, only difference is his fruit cant heal so he lost his arm.
> 
> None of this proves he’s Admiral level.



I'm saying what he's done.

You're right about Vista and Jozu, and for that I would consider them top-tier/Admiral level. Just imagine how the character would do if Kizaru or Mihawk decided to fight them
High diff = They can fight Kizaru or Mihawk for a long time until they pull out their strongest attacks
Mid diff = They can stall Kizaru or Mihawk but is not very close to them
Low diff = Kizaru and Mihawk very easily win
To me a top-tier can't be rolled over by these guys. That's why Vista was asked by Mihawk to stop their duel. And why Rayleigh could easily match even the might of a Navy Admiral. Oda could not make the power scale more simple.


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## VileNotice (Oct 25, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Sabo also has COA3. I bet that a whole load of people also have COA3. Especially swordsmen who are stronger than the Scabbards.



We're talking about internal destruction when you say CoA3 right? 

Sabo is quite strong, stronger or on par with current Luffy I would guess, so it makes sense for him to have it. Especially since he was potentially FM level (YC3 at lowest) before getting his fruit. Seems his whole combat style was oriented around it.

I don't know about it being common among swordsmen though. As far as I can tell the scabbards only have CoA2 (emission) which allows them to hurt Kaido. And Denjiro is pretty strong. So I'd say only bona fide top tier swordsmen like Oden, Mihawk, Roger, Rayleigh and Shanks could be reasonably assumed to have it. Maybe that's considered a lot, but it's clearly a top tier ability. But I also don't think all top tiers have it considering not all top tiers have future sight.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

VileNotice said:


> We're talking about internal destruction when you say CoA3 right?
> 
> Sabo is quite strong, stronger or on par with current Luffy I would guess, so it makes sense for him to have it. Especially since he was potentially FM level (YC3 at lowest) before getting his fruit. Seems his whole combat style was oriented around it.
> 
> I don't know about it being common among swordsmen though. As far as I can tell the scabbards only have CoA2 (emission) which allows them to hurt Kaido. And Denjiro is pretty strong. So I'd say only bona fide top tier swordsmen like Oden, Mihawk, Roger, Rayleigh and Shanks could be reasonably assumed to have it. Maybe that's considered a lot, but it's clearly a top tier ability. But I also don't think all top tiers have it considering not all top tiers have future sight.




*Spoiler*: __ 








Sabo is arguably not even a bonafide top-tier and he knows of and has it. Swordsmans are more proficient with hardening - thats why I think that someone like Vista would have level 3; a bonfide top-tier. There arent many top-tier swordsmen to name though. Maybe King? Conversley though, other top-tiers will shows this level of haki like Marco, so Luffy is no exception.


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## VileNotice (Oct 25, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You could say the same of Katakuri and future sight. Just because Kata has FS doesn't mean everyone stronger than him has it, probably same for level 3. Though I would say all top tiers have at least level 2.

Also I know we've been through this discussion before but it's still wild to me that you think Whitebeard's crew not only had an extra top tier in Marco, but two more in Jozu and Vista  Them losing to Blackbeard is quite the mystery in that case


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

VileNotice said:


> You could say the same of Katakuri and future sight. Just because Kata has FS doesn't mean everyone stronger than him has it, probably same for level 3. Though I would say all top tiers have at least level 2.



It's really a matter of neccesity. If Vista was planning on challenging Mihawk without a level of haki that puts you on a completely other level, that wouldn't make sense. But if Big Mom went up against Katakuri without future sight, it isn't implied to be an issue.
So if we use Sabo as a marker for borderline top-tier, and he has this top haki, i would go on a limb and say that most top-tiers have it too, otherwise they couldn't compete at all.


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 25, 2020)

Jo Ndule said:


> Can anyone name how does Marco even beat G4 Luffy or push Kata past high difd?
> 
> Marco portrayal is trash :
> His AP is g3 tier at best
> ...



Great job making a childrens pirate comic into astrophysics.


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## Zero (Nov 15, 2020)

Well....this is pretty impressive.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Corax (Nov 15, 2020)

After this chapter all is clear. BM thinks that Marco has a chance to kill her and overall is a worthy opponent. These portrayal and thoughts might be highly subjective to BM alone but this can't be discarded. Not to mention that he can KO her homies and evenly clash with her fists.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 3


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## xmysticgohanx (Nov 15, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> he will have a far higher bounty and he will stall big mom


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## OG sama (Nov 15, 2020)

Zero said:


> Well....this is pretty impressive.



Hes a hard counter to Prometheus,  I mean if you guys are going to use proof at least not be disingenuous about it. Tell the whole damn story.


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## OG sama (Nov 15, 2020)

Corax said:


> After this chapter all is clear. BM thinks that Marco has a chance to kill her and overall is a worthy opponent. These portrayal and thoughts might be highly subjective to BM alone but this can't be discarded. Not to mention that he can KO her homies and evenly clash with her fists.


Wanting to kill someone and being able to are completely different things.

She respects Marco enough to try, but that doesn’t mean he can. Not really saying much considering BM treats her children like garbage and treats everyone else with more respect, besides the SN of course.


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## Zero (Nov 16, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Hes a hard counter to Prometheus,  I mean if you guys are going to use proof at least not be disingenuous about it. Tell the whole damn story.


Aren't their fists connecting?

I thought it was more than just a counter, but showing how strong Marco is.

Sort of how Blackbeard countered Whitebeard's quake with his devil fruit, however Blackbeard still has to use his physical strength to match his fist..even if that was for a little until he got bisentoed to the ground lol.


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## Draco Bolton (Nov 16, 2020)

WE WON MARCOBROS    WE FUCKING WON AS PER CANON 

So...Katakurifans ?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 7


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## Lord Stark (Nov 16, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> WE WON MARCOBROS    WE FUCKING WON AS PER CANON
> 
> So...Katakurifans ?


Fucking glorious


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## OG sama (Nov 16, 2020)

Zero said:


> Aren't their fists connecting?
> 
> I thought it was more than just a counter, but showing how strong Marco is.
> 
> Sort of how Blackbeard countered Whitebeard's quake with his devil fruit, however Blackbeard still has to use his physical strength to match his fist..even if that was for a little until he got bisentoed to the ground lol.



For a momentary time until she grabbed him and left him in a one armed chokehold with her bare hand, it’s obvious that if she just simply used her fist she doesn’t lose the clash, it was Prometheus that caused her to lose the clash because Marcos flames hard counter him.

We don’t even know if they clashed fist, Prometheus isn’t exactly a flame fist she just uses him with her hand, and throws him at her opponents her fist don’t need to be at the center for her to do that.

^Just saying, they were in close combat with each other but for the most part her hands aren’t visible, it’s just a bunch of flames in the middle of them two not really conclusive if anything.

EDIT: well looking back at the clash I guess they did, but clearly he’s able to only do that momentarily because Prometheus is a hard counter. If she can grab him by the neck with one hand and have him with no way to escape then clearly a lot of that clash had to do with Prometheus being hard countered that him matching her physically.


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## Zero (Nov 16, 2020)

OG sama said:


> For a momentary time until she grabbed him and left him in a one armed chokehold with her bare hand, it’s obvious that if she just simply used her fist she doesn’t lose the clash, it was Prometheus that caused her to lose the clash because Marcos flames hard counter him.
> 
> We don’t even know if they clashed fist, Prometheus isn’t exactly a flame fist she just uses him with her hand, and throws him at her opponents her fist don’t need to be at the center for her to do that.
> 
> ...


That’s fair, Big Mom grabbing him by the neck definitely shows that she still has the physical advantage in the fight. I get what you mean.


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## OG sama (Nov 16, 2020)

Zero said:


> That’s fair, Big Mom grabbing him by the neck definitely shows that she still has the physical advantage in the fight. I get what you mean.



Really don’t understand what the hoopla is about, Marco can’t be killed very easily because  his DF insta heals, that was hyped more than anything this chapter.

It’s as if people expect Marco to be the savior of this arc or something.

Nothing wrong with being a fan and wanting him to do well but damn a lot of people blowing a clash he had an advantage in out of proportion.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zero (Nov 16, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Really don’t understand what the hoopla is about, Marco can’t be killed very easily because  his DF insta heals, that was hyped more than anything this chapter.
> 
> It’s as if people expect Marco to be the savior of this arc or something.
> 
> Nothing wrong with being a fan and wanting him to do well but damn a lot of people blowing a clash he had an advantage in out of proportion.


I know, I’ve even seen people go so far to say Marco would defeat Big Mom. Marco is cool though.

I personally believe Marco is like a borderline or low top tier, he can sort of hang with the Admirals and Yonkos but only because of his insane regen, but at the end of the day he would stand no chance.

Like his performances with the Admirals during Marineford, he was able to do some work against them, but when it came down to hurting or severely wounding them, he couldn’t.


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## OG sama (Nov 16, 2020)

Zero said:


> I know, I’ve even seen people go so far to say Marco would defeat Big Mom. Marco is cool though.
> 
> I personally believe Marco is like a borderline or low top tier, he can sort of hang with the Admirals and Yonkos but only because of his insane regen, but at the end of the day he would stand no chance.
> 
> Like his performances with the Admirals during Marineford, he was able to do some work against them, but when it came down to hurting or severely wounding them, he couldn’t.



The argument they use is that they couldn’t hurt him either, but unlike a Top Tiers stats in durability and Endurance, his regen does not last. He has a cap we haven’t seen yet and that’s why so many people are convinced he is some God.

Katakuris FS took hours upon hours to wear down, I assume Marcos regen is no different and Luffy has to fight him 1v1 for 12 freaking hours with little to no interference for us to see it.

Marcos got to come down to earth eventually, we will see that this arc when his DF gets some Info on it when he helps wit the antidote.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 16, 2020)

Zero said:


> Aren't their fists connecting?
> 
> I thought it was more than just a counter, but showing how strong Marco is.
> 
> Sort of how Blackbeard countered Whitebeard's quake with his devil fruit, however Blackbeard still has to use his physical strength to match his fist..even if that was for a little until he got bisentoed to the ground lol.


You can see that BB is clearly not touching Whitebeard, so it's just his fruit countering the Gura powers.



OG sama said:


> The argument they use is that they couldn’t hurt him either, but unlike a Top Tiers stats in durability and Endurance, his regen does not last. He has a cap we haven’t seen yet and that’s why so many people are convinced he is some God.
> 
> Katakuris FS took hours upon hours to wear down, I assume Marcos regen is no different and Luffy has to fight him 1v1 for 12 freaking hours with little to no interference for us to see it.
> 
> Marcos got to come down to earth eventually, we will see that this arc when his DF gets some Info on it when he helps wit the antidote.


Except until we know more his regen limit is unknown. So you can't say that it's going to drain in hours, when you have no proof of that other than "nah bruh hes not invincible bruh". Katakuri's FS drained after hours because he himself drained, he was done. Meanwhile his peer Jack, someone weaker than Marco, lasted 5 days until he wore out. So Marco's limit is probably related to his individual stamina, it just makes the most sense, and that's not going to end before a good 10 days of fighting like Aokiji and Akainu who don't have a Zoan fruit.



OG sama said:


> Hes a hard counter to Prometheus,  I mean if you guys are going to use proof at least not be disingenuous about it. Tell the whole damn story.


I'm just going to totally obliterate the two arguments that you keep using to save face.

1-) "Marco countered Prometheus, thus it was not a fair clash between Big Mom's fist and his"

If I punch someone's fists to a standstill but their hands are enflamed, who had the advantage?
If Marco countered Prometheus, all that did was make the grounds more even.

2-) "Marco's fruit insta-heals him so when he clashes with someone it's not his physical power"

If I punch someone's fist again to a standstill, and I come out more in pain afterwards, but I instantaneously heal my hand, what had more to do with me punching their fist to a standstill, the pain I healed after the fact, or my physical strength allowing me to do so?


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## xmysticgohanx (Nov 16, 2020)

99% of people with an iq >120 choose Marco

Reactions: Agree 1


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## charles101 (Nov 16, 2020)

Corax said:


> After this chapter all is clear. BM thinks that Marco has a chance to kill her


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 16, 2020)

I don't know why that bothers you so much, it's not like he thinks that.

The difference between Big Mom and Marco is like the difference between Kid and Sanji. In both cases the fanbase has a fit when you say they can fight strong people lmao


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## Zero (Nov 16, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> You can see that BB is clearly not touching Whitebeard, so it's just his fruit countering the Gura powers.


Oh you may be right, thanks for pointing that out.

Do you believe Marco's attack was connecting with Big Mom though? fist to fist? If that matters at all.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 16, 2020)

Zero said:


> Oh you may be right, thanks for pointing that out.
> 
> Do you believe Marco's attack was connecting with Big Mom though? fist to fist? If that matters at all.


Yeah because it was setting off huge explosions in the background. The intention was clear, you can see that big Mom uses her souls like boxing gloves.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Bernkastel (Nov 16, 2020)

Matching a yonkou fist to fist while obliterating her homie at the same time when her entire family was scared shitless to even try and get in her way is more than enough. 
Add the fact that he's physically strong to break an admiral's guard and send him flying and its just icing on the cake and that's not even talking about hia defensive power. 


I'm not even gonna go on portrayal and hype where once again Marco outshines Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## OG sama (Nov 16, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> You can see that BB is clearly not touching Whitebeard, so it's just his fruit countering the Gura powers.
> 
> 
> Except until we know more his regen limit is unknown. So you can't say that it's going to drain in hours, when you have no proof of that other than "nah bruh hes not invincible bruh". Katakuri's FS drained after hours because he himself drained, he was done. Meanwhile his peer Jack, someone weaker than Marco, lasted 5 days until he wore out. So Marco's limit is probably related to his individual stamina, it just makes the most sense, and that's not going to end before a good 10 days of fighting like Aokiji and Akainu who don't have a Zoan fruit.
> ...



We don’t even know if they clashed fist to fist if we are being honest, I’m not saying they didn’t, and it’s probably incredibly likely they did due to how close they were.

Prometheus isn’t a flaming fist that BMs hand is at the center of, she throws him at her opponents.

When BM was wondering why she was losing the clash she never mentions it’s because of Marco miraculous physical strength, she mentions why his flames that don’t burn are working on her Homie.

And the fact that she grabbed him with her bare hand and had him in a chokehold he couldn’t  get out of, proves that that clash was so much more than just a fist on fist clash like you are trying to make it out as. Like they exchanged flame attacks it wasn’t a full on fist on fist clash.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 16, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Prometheus isn’t a flaming fist that BMs hand is at the center of, she throws him at her opponents.


Just look at the page. She's clearly using it as an enhancement to her punches. Plus, you already admitted that it's incredibly likely that they were physically engaging each other, so of course she was just coating her fists in Prometheus' flames.



OG sama said:


> When BM was wondering why she was losing the clash she never mentions it’s because of Marco miraculous physical strength, she mentions why his flames that don’t burn are working on her Homie.


I actually don't know if that was Prometheus or Mom. Either way it doesn't change the aforementioned.



OG sama said:


> And the fact that she grabbed him with her bare hand and had him in a chokehold he couldn’t  get out of, proves that that clash was so much more than just a fist on fist clash like you are trying to make it out as. Like they exchanged flame attacks it wasn’t a full on fist on fist clash.


Like I said, there are huge explosions in the background, don't know what else would make that other than a hand to hand collision. Pretty much everyone has agreed to that conclusion except for you. Like, if you punched fire, you would just go through it.


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## OG sama (Nov 16, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Just look at the page. She's clearly using it as an enhancement to her punches. Plus, you already admitted that it's incredibly likely that they were physically engaging each other, so of course she was just coating her fists in Prometheus' flames.
> 
> 
> I actually don't know if that was Prometheus or Mom. Either way it doesn't change the aforementioned.
> ...



True you are right, there’s really no way around it, they clashed fist, but the attack wasn’t completely fist to fist, Marco being a hard counter to the flames made the attack extremely less effective that much should be clear.

Could Marco clash with a base BM fist to fist evenly, I kinda doubt it but he kinda did indirectly.

Guess Marco is unstoppable then, a Luffy using barrier Haki for the first time got knocked tf back by a base punch from her. Apparently Marco can stop those punches easily.

And a Luffy using EG and a Sanji using DJ was enough to stop Zeus, I guess that means G4 can’t clash with even base BM punches.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 16, 2020)

OG sama said:


> True you are right, there’s really no way around it, they clashed fist, but the attack wasn’t completely fist to fist, Marco being a hard counter to the flames made the attack extremely less effective that much should be clear.
> 
> Could Marco clash with a base BM fist to fist evenly, I kinda doubt it but he kinda did indirectly.
> 
> ...


G5 is going to be a lot more powerful than G4 overall. Like Zoro's next Ashura paired with Enma or Sanji's new moves, etc. They're just not that strong yet.


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## OG sama (Nov 16, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> G5 is going to be a lot more powerful than G4 overall. Like Zoro's next Ashura paired with Enma or Sanji's new moves, etc. They're just not that strong yet.



G4 literally folded Dressrosa in half, a very big ass portion of Dressrosa got spilt in two because of Luffy firepower in that form.

No Yonko FM so far has shown the kind of destructive power as G4.  BM blocked his attack with a Hakified forearm, Kaido no self it better only because he couldn’t be hurt externally. Even Katakuri didn’t have more raw power than Boundman.

Not that strong my ass.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 16, 2020)

OG sama said:


> G4 literally folded Dressrosa in half, a very big ass portion of Dressrosa got spilt in two because of Luffy firepower in that form.
> 
> No Yonko FM so far has shown the kind of destructive power as G4.  BM blocked his attack with a Hakified forearm, Kaido no self it better only because he couldn’t be hurt externally. Even Katakuri didn’t have more raw power than Boundman.
> 
> Not that strong my ass.


KKG might be up there, who knows. I was mainly talking about KG.

But did you really think the Doflamingo power up would be comparable to the strongest man in the world's right hand guy? This seems like a weird conclusion.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 16, 2020)

Now that I read the official in full, it is odd that someone came up with the fact that Perospero asked for the finisher, he said "looks like I am emplyong help", which implies that he is new to Big Mom's decision to use him to finish Marco instead of herself.


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## OG sama (Nov 16, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> KKG might be up there, who knows. I was mainly talking about KG.
> 
> But did you really think the Doflamingo power up would be comparable to the strongest man in the world's right hand guy? This seems like a weird conclusion.



The power  up put him way above Doflamingos level...

The only reason he didn’t beat Doflamingo with it was because if it’s time limit.

You think Oda put that time restriction on the form for this long for no reason???

The form put his power output nothing short of Yonko FM level, guys like Katakuri was getting knocked around by it.

Its no coincidence that Oda all of a sudden decided to do away with its time limit (seemingly) when Luffy is about to fight the WSC.

You think G4 + Advanced CoA 2.0 and 3.0 isn’t going to be hella effective on Kaido?? He might get a new gear or use one, but it’s likely to come with consequences just like G4 was.

G5 will likely be reserved for Top Tiers.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 16, 2020)

OG sama said:


> You think G4 + Advanced CoA 2.0 and 3.0 isn’t going to be hella effective on Kaido?? He might get a new gear or use one, but it’s likely to come with consequences just like G4 was.



I mean... if it's just KG's, and Kaido actually puts effort into it, they shuoldn't do much to him.


OG sama said:


> G5 will likely be reserved for Top Tiers.


Is Kaido not a top tier?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## VileNotice (Nov 16, 2020)

I'm still betting on G4 Tiger Man against Kaido which will be focused on piercing, with blades of haki emanating from each strike. Awakening/G5 is possible but I can see Oda saving that for Teach as well.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> I mean... if it's just KG's, and Kaido actually puts effort into it, they shuoldn't do much to him.
> 
> Is Kaido not a top tier?


How so? The Scabbards have did decent damage their selves to him and not only are they weaker than Luffy naturally but he has a higher level of CoA than they do. They were even hurting him using Lvl 2,  Luffy has that and Lvl 3 to use.

Yes, I’m just saying if he uses a G5 he’s absolutely only using it as a trump card for Top Tiers, while it’s brand new.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> How so? The Scabbards have did decent damage their selves to him and not only are they weaker than Luffy naturally but he has a higher level of CoA than they do. They were even hurting him using Lvl 2,  Luffy has that and Lvl 3 to use.
> 
> Yes, I’m just saying if he uses a G5 he’s absolutely only using it as a trump card for Top Tiers, while it’s brand new.


Kaido wasn't hurt though, and teh Scabbards were using blades to even draw blood which Luffy couldn't. There's your difference.

I'm not saying G4 can't harm Kaido with advanced haki, but it's not like that level of strength is enough to seriously contend with him. That should be obvious after Big Mom nonchalantly blocked it during the Tea Party and when Kaido utterly fodderized the form at the start of Wano.


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## Quipchaque (Nov 17, 2020)

His devil fruit power, arguably superior physical strength, arguably superior hype, his proven worth against the admirals and plot progression.

Quick Note: one Problem in your evaluation is that Marco "could not Inflict damage to the admirals".Not only did Marco barely get any panel time to suggest so but also what is important to Note is that the admirals were Using their Logia powers, Blocked the Attacks with a Defensive stance or Marco actively Held back by reverting to his human Form. This Argument really should be put to Rest until we Figure out what the extent of his powers are. For all we know Marco can use advanced armament, King's haki or whatever other idea Oda can Come up with. And if that is the case then Marco most definitely can injure most top tiers.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Kaido wasn't hurt though, and teh Scabbards were using blades to even draw blood which Luffy couldn't. There's your difference.
> 
> I'm not saying G4 can't harm Kaido with advanced haki, but it's not like that level of strength is enough to seriously contend with him. That should be obvious after Big Mom nonchalantly blocked it during the Tea Party and when Kaido utterly fodderized the form at the start of Wano.



Who says you need blades to hurt Kaido? That’s definitely not true.

BM blocked his attack with Armament Haki what do you mean man? Name another instance where BM even used Armament to block another persons attack? You arent giving G4’s power it’s respect where it’s clearly due.

Kaido can’t be hurt externally, that’s literally the only reason he never got hurt at all by the form. Like I said you can’t ignore shit like this to fit your narrative, with the logic you are using Kinemon would have better firepower than G4 and that’s absolutely BS I shouldn’t even have to explain why that would be.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Who says you need blades to hurt Kaido? That’s definitely not true.


My point was that even if the Scabbards made Kaido bleed, that doesn't mean they hurt him that much. To the point where we would draw a comparison to G4/Luffy so as to decide whether he can now hurt Kaido himself. Of course G4 + haki is better firepower than any Scababrd posesses, but none of them were nearly as strong as Oden which Luffy will have to be to contend with Kaido.



OG sama said:


> BM blocked his attack with Armament Haki what do you mean man? Name another instance where BM even used Armament to block another persons attack? You arent giving G4’s power it’s respect where it’s clearly due.


What? Big Mom is going to always be using armament haki when she is in a sound state of mind.



OG sama said:


> Kaido can’t be hurt externally, that’s literally the only reason he never got hurt at all by the form. Like I said you can’t ignore shit like this to fit your narrative, with the logic you are using Kinemon would have better firepower than G4 and that’s absolutely BS I shouldn’t even have to explain why that would be.


Just because Kaido drew blood doesn't mean he was hurt.


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> My point was that even if the Scabbards made Kaido bleed, that doesn't mean they hurt him that much. To the point where we would draw a comparison to G4/Luffy so as to decide whether he can now hurt Kaido himself. Of course G4 + haki is better firepower than any Scababrd posesses, but none of them were nearly as strong as Oden which Luffy will have to be to contend with Kaido.
> 
> 
> What? Big Mom is going to always be using armament haki when she is in a sound state of mind.
> ...



Luffy won’t be winning 1v1 so yeah won’t be as strong as Oden but I do feel G5 will put him on Odens level or a bit higher, I think he will pull it out against Kaido when all hope is seemingly lost. But it will be yet another temporary power up before Luffy masters it.

Based off what? BM is one of the strongest people in the series bruh, If G4’s attack was as weak as you are making it out to be she wouldn’t have been using hardening to block it. She would be no selling that shit with no Haki or just the invisible application. BM is almost as tough as Kaido is, she had no reason to block that attack otherwise, G4s power is strong enough to cause BM to block with hardening.

Nibba what are you trying to prove??? Kinemon was able to hurt Kaido enough for him to bleed because he had Advanced Armament Haki, you can’t hope to hurt Kaido without it. G4’s going to do a lot better than it did, because the form now has a way to bypass Kaidos scales bruh, and Luffy has Lvl 2 and 3 to harm him. He’s not beating Kaido alone but he’s dealing wayyy more damage than the Scabbards could have done.

Like it’s crazy that you can’t give Luffy his due.


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## Naisutime (Nov 17, 2020)

You can just look at the caliber of opponents tbh. Marco has been up against the likes of C3, Garp, BM and has preformed ok.

Meanwhile Katakuri has fought against Luffy. 

To say that Katakuri would preform better against Marcos opponents is unsupported.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

The fact that people think Katakuri out of all the other FMs is just some weakling just goes to show the IQ of people around here.

Now why in the hell would Katakuri be the weakest and most pathetic out of all the other Yonko FMs? Like why would Oda treat Kata like that? Oda is the same guy that says if the fanbase thinks a character is weak he will just make him stronger.

Katakuri is on the level of guys like Marco and King, there’s nothing suggesting otherwise but just people downplaying him because he lost to Luffy, ignoring everything that needed to happen for Luffy to win. Katakuri was brought up to be the guy in BMs crew all his younger siblings respected, he had an undefeated record before Luffy, and can see into the future, the first person to introduce this ability which made Kata almost impossible to hit.

This notion that Kata is a notch below Marco and King or any other Yonko FM is false.

Whats more likely to you fools? Oda giving fair parity to all Yonko FMs or Oda making Katakuri the weakest just cause reasons???

Reactions: Like 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Nov 17, 2020)

Marco low diffs katakuri

Reactions: Like 1


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## Naisutime (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> The fact that people think Katakuri out of all the other FMs is just some weakling just goes to show the IQ of people around here.
> 
> Now why in the hell would Katakuri be the weakest and most pathetic out of all the other Yonko FMs? Like why would Oda treat Kata like that? Oda is the same guy that says if the fanbase thinks a character is weak he will just make him stronger.
> 
> ...



Honestly stop being so dramatic.

There is no such thing as absolute parity within a certain level, whether its YC1, FM or whatever you want to call it. Even within the C3, which so far seems much more equal level than FM, Akainu is still marginally above Aokiji. Perhaps Oda intends for there to be parity, but its irrelevant as long as it is not supported by feats.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Naisutime said:


> Honestly stop being so dramatic.
> 
> There is no such thing as absolute parity within a certain level, whether its YC1, FM or whatever you want to call it. Even within the C3, which so far seems much more equal level than FM, Akainu is still marginally above Aokiji. Perhaps Oda intends for there to be parity, but its irrelevant as long as it is not supported by feats.



There’s nothing suggesting their isn’t parity between Yonko FMs. Marco and King share the exact same feat, why should I believe that Katakuri is going to get undermined? What reason does Oda even have to do that? When Kata was introduced everyone was on his dick, then when he lost to Luffy people decided to jump off... there’s a problem and it’s not Katakuri or how Oda has portrayed him. It’s just fans, and Luffy downplay that’s the problem. If Katakuri doesn’t fight Luffy, Katakuris hype is an all time high.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> The fact that people think Katakuri out of all the other FMs is just some weakling just goes to show the IQ of people around here.
> 
> Now why in the hell would Katakuri be the weakest and most pathetic out of all the other Yonko FMs? Like why would Oda treat Kata like that? Oda is the same guy that says if the fanbase thinks a character is weak he will just make him stronger.
> 
> ...


Usually when we get to the point of comparing the Fms, I bring up Beckman and then it's: "oh beckman is probably closer to shanks etc but thats an outlier, and also the Fms have complete parity". I really wonder if you're sure of your positon, maybe clarify?

Is this kind of what you're thinking:

Kizaru, Fujitora, Shanks, Big Mom etc >>>>>>(different league x90000)>>>>> Beckman, marco, King, Katakuri etc



OG sama said:


> There’s nothing suggesting their isn’t parity between Yonko FMs. Marco and King share the exact same feat, why should I believe that Katakuri is going to get undermined? What reason does Oda even have to do that? When Kata was introduced everyone was on his dick, then when he lost to Luffy people decided to jump off... there’s a problem and it’s not Katakuri or how Oda has portrayed him. It’s just fans, and Luffy downplay that’s the problem. If Katakuri doesn’t fight Luffy, Katakuris hype is an all time high.



So if Luffy beat katakuri cause he's strong, but then got one shot by kaido, that means katakuri is somehow close at all to kaido? no one ever underrated katakuri or luffy, that's a very foolish strawman which you are at ends with. simply what i said in the first sentance proves that katakuri is not some Admiral level dude who you may or may not think he is, it's hard to know.

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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Usually when we get to the point of comparing the Fms, I bring up Beckman and then it's: "oh beckman is probably closer to shanks etc but thats an outlier, and also the Fms have complete parity". I really wonder if you're sure of your positon, maybe clarify?
> 
> Is this kind of what you're thinking:
> 
> Kizaru, Fujitora, Shanks, Big Mom etc >>>>>>(different league x90000)>>>>> Beckman, marco, King, Katakuri etc



I think Beckman is the only outlier in that he’s stronger than the others but the others are on the same level.

That way we don’t have 

Beckman>> Marco=King>>Katakuri 

But we got Beckman>Marco~King~Katakuri 

so uh yeah same thing? Is that what you meant? Cause I think that’s what you meant? Correct?



Shunsuiju said:


> So if Luffy beat katakuri cause he's strong, but then got one shot by kaido, that means katakuri is somehow close at all to kaido? no one ever underrated katakuri or luffy, that's a very foolish strawman which you are at ends with. simply what i said in the first sentance proves that katakuri is not some Admiral level dude who you may or may not think he is, it's hard to know.



Who said he was close to Kaido and who says any Yonko FM is?? I don’t think any of them are except Beckman who imo is a Low Top Tier.


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## Naisutime (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> There’s nothing suggesting their isn’t parity between Yonko FMs. Marco and King share the exact same feat, why should I believe that Katakuri is going to get undermined? What reason does Oda even have to do that? When Kata was introduced everyone was on his dick, then when he lost to Luffy people decided to jump off... there’s a problem and it’s not Katakuri or how Oda has portrayed him. It’s just fans, and Luffy downplay that’s the problem. If Katakuri doesn’t fight Luffy, Katakuris hype is an all time high.



What? Marco and King doesn't have anywhere near equal feats either, kicking a ship is not the same as trading blows with top tiers. 

You're talking to wrong person about portrayal. I don't give a shit about it, and as far as I'm concerned, if you have to resort to using that kind of arguments, your case is already weak.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> I think Beckman is the only outlier in that he’s stronger than the others but the others are on the same level.
> 
> That way we don’t have
> 
> ...


This is so vacuous.

Besides it wouldn't be 1 ">" for Beckman over at least Katakuri because for Beckman to be as strong as he is portrayed to be, he would be much closer to Big Mom than to Katakuri, and Big Mom is att least 3 times ">" above Katakuri.



OG sama said:


> Who said he was close to Kaido and who says any Yonko FM is?? I don’t think any of them are except Beckman who imo is a Low Top Tier.


Marco is, Beckman should be. If you disagree, then at least you know why we think Katakuri is not at all comparable to them.


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Naisutime said:


> What? Marco and King doesn't have anywhere near equal feats either, kicking a ship is not the same as trading blows with top tiers.
> 
> You're talking to wrong person about portrayal. I don't give a shit about it, and as far as I'm concerned, if you have to resort to using that kind of arguments, your case is already weak.


I said they share the same feat not that their feats are equal.

Da fuck are you even talking about? Go back and reread my post. I don’t list portrayal as ean issue so I have no idea why you are bringing that up.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 17, 2020)

^^
If you can somehow fashion in your brain that Beckman is "Close" to Kaido, and that Kaido is way stronger than Katakuri, then why are in such a state of confusion when we say Marco is significantly above Katakuri and you know we think he is close to Kaido? Why can't you follow this line of reasoning?


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> This is so vacuous.
> 
> Besides it wouldn't be 1 ">" for Beckman over at least Katakuri because for Beckman to be as strong as he is portrayed to be, he would be much closer to Big Mom than to Katakuri, and Big Mom is att least 3 times ">" above Katakuri.



She’s three times his strength based off what?Don’t give me this downplay someone else’s opinion by bringing in your own sorry ass opinion. No where in the manga is it stated that BM is three times as strong as Kata, you pulled that out of your ass.

And then you have the nerve to say my opinion is vacuous? Pulling imaginary numbers out your ass??? How sway...


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> She’s three times his strength based off what?Don’t give me this downplay someone else’s opinion by bringing in your own sorry ass opinion. No where in the manga is it stated that BM is three times as strong as Kata, you pulled that out of your ass.
> 
> And then you have the nerve to say my opinion is vacuous? Pulling imaginary numbers out your ass??? How sway...


Forget it.

Your opinion is vacuous because you said the FM's have absoloute parity then have the audacity to claim that Beckman is an exception without any substantive reason why.


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> ^^
> If you can somehow fashion in your brain that Beckman is "Close" to Kaido, and that Kaido is way stronger than Katakuri, then why are in such a state of confusion when we say Marco is significantly above Katakuri and you know we think he is close to Kaido? Why can't you follow this line of reasoning?



Because I don’t think Marco is as strong as Beckman is... like uh duhhh???

Marco is a defensive fighter like Katakuri is, one specializing in regen the other evasion.  They both are extremely lacking all around stat wise to be considered Top Tiers imo. You don’t become a stop Tier by having only a Top Tier defense.


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## Naisutime (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> I said they share the same feat not that their feats are equal.
> 
> Da fuck are you even talking about? Go back and reread my post. I don’t list portrayal as ean issue so I have no idea why you are bringing that up.



The sharing same feat doesn't have anything to do with anything. If their feats aren't equal in quality, your original point about parity is unsupported.

You're right, I just don't see the relevance.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 17, 2020)

And Ben Beckman has a nerf gun. Like, lmfao


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Forget it.
> 
> Your opinion is vacuous because you said the FM's have absoloute parity then have the audacity to claim that Beckman is an exception without any substantive reason why.


You didn’t ask!!! Like what’s wrong with you, get you some help bruh.

How about the fact that’s Shanks crew is significantly smaller than other Yonko crews are??? How about the dynamic between Shanks and Beckman, they are like Roger and Rayleigh, how about Shanks signifying the sun and Beckman signifying the moon. They are like Yin and Yang.


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Naisutime said:


> The sharing same feat doesn't have anything to do with anything. If their feats aren't equal in quality, your original point about parity is unsupported.
> 
> You're right, I just don't see the relevance.



King hasn’t had the panel time that Marco has, we learned who he was literally this arc. I’m not saying they have the same feats but I doubt Oda gave them an identical feat together because they are just birds.  It’s called putting things into context.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> You didn’t ask!!! Like what’s wrong with you, get you some help bruh.
> 
> How about the fact that’s Shanks crew is significantly smaller than other Yonko crews are??? How about the dynamic between Shanks and Beckman, they are like Roger and Rayleigh, how about Shanks signifying the sun and Beckman signifying the moon. They are like Yin and Yang.


...And what about the fact that Whitebeard had the strongest pirate crew alive? Shanks' crew was never said to be smaller if we're purely talking fodder here, also I doubt his crew could ever make up for lacking thousands of fodder that Big Mom, Kaido and Whitebeard had/have, so it's an irrelevant talking point. If we're talking purely strong to elites of his crew, his is not smaller than any of the other three.

By the way, none of that, if true, is a substantive reason why Beckman is exceptional compared to Marco.


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## Naisutime (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> King hasn’t had the panel time that Marco has, we learned who he was literally this arc. I’m not saying they have the same feats but I doubt Oda gave them an identical feat together because they are just birds.  It’s called putting things into context.


...
.....
This argument is starting to look circular...Katakuri has literally had 25 times Marcos panel time and still doesn't have equivalent feats. So again, there is nothing suggesting parity within a level.


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> ...And what about the fact that Whitebeard had the strongest pirate crew alive? Shanks' crew was never said to be smaller if we're purely talking fodder here, also I doubt his crew could ever make up for lacking thousands of fodder that Big Mom, Kaido and Whitebeard had/have, so it's an irrelevant talking point. If we're talking purely strong to elites of his crew, his is not smaller than any of the other three.


WB was the WSM, show me where it states he had the Worlds strongest pirate crew because this isn’t stated.

Sure we don’t know how big Shanks crew is, but we have plenty of reason to believe his crew follow the quality over quantity rule. Everytime we have seen Shanks arrive anywhere it’s been with just one ship small sample size it may be. While WB has fleets and over a 1000 allied fleets shown, BM has her thousands of kids and their fleets. Kaido has his thousands of crew members, Disasters, gifters, pleasures, numbers, flying 6, headliners. Shanks so far doesn’t seem to represent that, he probably is like the SHs who trust their core crew members and represents quality.

If we go by your logic not only would Shanks be having a smaller crew but he would be having core crew members who are only just as strong as WBs or BMs or Kaidos, but they would have bigger fleets in addition. Now does that make much sense to you???

The only way Shanks having a smaller crew can work is if his members are stronger than the core of others Yonkos crew.


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Naisutime said:


> ...
> .....
> This argument is starting to look circular...Katakuri has literally had 25 times Marcos panel time and still doesn't have equivalent feats. So again, there is nothing suggesting parity within a level.


But he’s fought one person in the only arc he’s ever been in....like are you serious right now with this garbage ass argument???

He fought Luffy and that was it, your  comparison doesn’t hold up at all.

Marco was introduced during an arc a war that had VAs, Admirals, Yonkos, Schichibukai etc.. etc..


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## Beast (Nov 17, 2020)

@OG sama
Are you not reading people’s posts?

a whole bunch of excuses that have taken apart but you just keep jumping from one thing to another.

‘king and Marco have the same feats’

‘Marco has more panel time’

‘Kata only fought one person’

what exactly is your point... because between the last two pages, I’ve seen you try to change the direction of your posts.... at least three times, replying to only One person.

it’s embarrassing. Why are you bring up King and Ben, who have no feats, only portrayal and hype? Do you think this thread is about them?
bruh, drop this hate... your as bad as any Zoro wanker maybe even worse, considering you’re trying to wank luffy... luffy now isn’t the same as the start of Wano, not the same as the end of WCI and won’t be the same as when he fights Kaidou along with everyone else.

Luffy is gonna keep growing, unlike Marco and Kata himself the 40 war old virgin, maybe that’s the wake up call. 




keep on crying about why and how Marco can take on top tiers alone but Luffy first needs scabbards, back stabs and SNs help to beat Kaidou, go japan and join them interviews and ask Oda yourself, we can only tell what is possible from what we’ve seen, we can’t give the reason why... do you know why? Because we are not Odas editors.

Anyway, Marco far far surpasses anything Kata has done. Be it feats against stronger opponents, portrayal or hype and the make things worst Marco still hasn’t shown us everything.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Naisutime (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> But he’s fought one person in the only arc he’s ever been in....like are you serious right now with this garbage ass argument???
> 
> He fought Luffy and that was it, your  comparison doesn’t hold up at all.
> 
> Marco was introduced during an arc a war that had VAs, Admirals, Yonkos, Schichibukai etc.. etc..




The threads question is why Marco is considered to be > Katakuri. And the reason why that is the case is because he has higher quality of feats, full stop.

Until Katakuri fights a top tier hes stuck at being less impressive than Marco. If he shows up at Wano in next chapters and cuts an arm of Kaidou, that would immediately change.

The panel time or time of introduction fucking irrelevant to the feats in question, unless there are on panel improvements over time.

I'm out, I have a paper to write.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Beast said:


> @OG sama
> Are you not reading people’s posts?
> 
> a whole bunch of excuses that have taken apart but you just keep jumping from one thing to another.
> ...


I’m using Luffy to prove a point, there is no wank. Whenever we get an arc usually Luffy is the one to handle the big bad, so I’m just explaining that Marco isn’t going to outshine him in an arc like this... that’s literally it.

Your inability to understand basic logic like this is astounding.


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## Bernkastel (Nov 17, 2020)

Beast said:


> @OG sama
> *Are you not reading people’s posts?*
> 
> a whole bunch of excuses that have taken apart but you just keep jumping from one thing to another.
> ...


I mean that's his entire problem...he has trouble reading the manga let alone other posts...he constantly contradicts himself,has delusions about manga feats and has constantly been changing directions..Luffy's dick has been stretched way too deep in his throat for him to even think properly

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Naisutime said:


> The threads question is why Marco is considered to be > Katakuri. And the reason why that is the case is because he has higher quality of feats, full stop.
> 
> Until Katakuri fights a top tier hes stuck at being less impressive than Marco. If he shows up at Wano in next chapters and cuts an arm of Kaidou, that would immediately change.
> 
> ...


That wasn’t the argument at hand though but whatever.

Im saying there’s still parity between them in spite of Marco having feats of fighting against Top Tiers.

I never said Marcos feats weren’t more impressive, but his feats don’t prove he’s stronger when you actually use your head and take into consideration the stuff I mentioned.


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## Beast (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> I’m using Luffy to prove a point, there is no wank. Whenever we get an arc usually Luffy is the one to handle the big bad, so I’m just explaining that Marco isn’t going to outshine him in an arc like this... that’s literally it.
> 
> Your inability to understand basic logic like this is astounding.


So, you’ve come on the battledome
To discuss and explain to us.... luffy will outshine Marco later this arc? This thread is about Marco and Kata, Luffy already outshined Kata, he still hasn’t outshined Marco, does that make sense to you?

lol, bruh what logic have you used? You’ve only spoke out of your ass and emotions, your posts have been taken apart already yet... you bring up a new and random point.
First it was FMs are equal, Marco and king are equal, Marco has more panel time, Kata didn’t face the same opponents... like what logic did you use? And for what purpose?
putting a bunch of words to together doesn’t mean it will make sense bruh, do better and that first starts with reflection.

@Bernkastel
Lol, who wins OG, Boa or Bart?
the fight for Luffys rubber duck.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Beast said:


> So, you’ve come on the battledome
> To discuss and explain to us.... luffy will outshine Marco later this arc? This thread is about Marco and Kata, Luffy already outshined Kata, he still hasn’t outshined Marco, does that make sense to you?
> 
> lol, bruh what logic have you used? You’ve only spoke out of your ass and emotions, your posts have been taken apart already yet... you bring up a new and random point.
> ...


The argument didn’t have anything to do with Luffy at first... do you know how arguments are created???

When people argue and debate they bring up all kinds of things to prove a point, Luffy got brought up late in the discussion when I was debating with Shunsuiju....

Like you can’t be this dense trying to make me look like the sole bad guy in all this. Like you and others haven’t had a part to play in this entire shit show? This shit is hilarious coming from you.


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## Bernkastel (Nov 17, 2020)

Beast said:


> @Bernkastel
> Lol, who wins OG, Boa or Bart?
> the fight for Luffys rubber duck.


Well OG has similar delusions with Boa dreams of marriage so i would say these two stomp Bart who's still in the normal realm of fanboyism.
Between Hancock and OG i think Hancock wins currently...she went to ID for him,opposed the marines directly and was even ready to attack an admiral for his sake...the other one needs to get more feats other than delusions to keep up with her.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

I’m literally debating with fools on here who think BM needed Peros help in killing Marco. But yet I’m the wanker???? Oh my god dawg I done seen it all.

Marco fans literally said that BM had Marco by the neck and couldn’t do anything to stop him herself... but I’m wanking Luffy because I mention him to prove a point about why I don’t view Marco as a Top Tier Admiral level character as they do.


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## Beast (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> The argument didn’t have anything to do with Luffy at first... do you know how arguments are created???
> 
> When people argue and debate they bring up all kinds of things to prove a point, Luffy got brought up late in the discussion when I was debating with Shunsuiju....
> 
> Like you can’t be this dense trying to make me look like the sole bad guy in all this. Like you and others haven’t had a part to play in this entire shit show? This shit is hilarious coming from you.


Doesn’t matter where it started, that doesn’t justify your shitty logic and reason for the last few posts I’ve seen.

Luffy has been in your mouth since your first few posts, you just keep bring him back into the mix, despite he himself not having the feats to replicate anything Marco has done past or present, nevermind Kata who the thread is about not current luffy.

dense? Bruh, you’re the one having troubles understanding a digital drawing, you don’t even need imagination, it’s on panel, yet you want to talk about others being dense or not having what was it basic logic whatever the fuck that is.

you have nothing to prove that Kata is above Marco with all his feats,
So what exactly are you arguing? 
you want to have the last post? What exactly are trying to accomplish here? What are arguing for? You keep changing it up every time you hit a wall and some proves you wrong... so what is it?


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## Beast (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> I’m literally debating with fools on here who think BM needed Peros help in killing Marco. But yet I’m the wanker???? Oh my god dawg I done seen it all.
> 
> Marco fans literally said that BM had Marco by the neck and couldn’t do anything to stop him herself... but I’m wanking Luffy because I mention him to prove a point about why I don’t view Marco as a Top Tier Admiral level character as they do.


I mean look at this.... did BM not ask For the Peros help? It doesn’t matter if you think she needed the help or two piece or 5 pieces whatever comic you read but in OP chapter 995.... did she or did she not ask for Peros to help her finish Marco?

Bro, this ain’t a good look, just saying some random shit won’t stop people from reading the posts, most if not everyone here has a basic understanding of English... if I was to ask you to once post where and when anyone has said ‘Marco is a top tier admiral level dude’ please go and shame whoever it is, post the link and we can move on. If not concede or stop making posts altogether, shit is kinda annoying at this point. Heck the BM fans at this point know not to keep scratching on their wounds but you... you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Beast said:


> Doesn’t matter where it started, that doesn’t justify your shitty logic and reason for the last few posts I’ve seen.
> 
> Luffy has been in your mouth since your first few posts, you just keep bring him back into the mix, despite he himself not having the feats to replicate anything Marco has done past or present, nevermind Kata who the thread is about not current luffy.
> 
> ...


Feats aren’t everything.

I said Katakuri was on the same level as Marco and that’s what I have always have said. If I’m bringing Luffy into any convo in a Marco thread it’s to prove that Marco isn’t Admiral level because I don’t expect even Luffy to be that strong at the end of this arc and I expect him to be stronger than Marco...

Like what about that is hard to understand??? You got Marcos meat in your mouth so far you haven’t actually read anything that I HAVE SAID.

You sound like the pot calling the kettle black.



Beast said:


> I mean look at this.... did BM not ask For the Peros help? It doesn’t matter if you think she needed the help or two piece or 5 pieces whatever comic you read but in OP chapter 995.... did she or did she not ask for Peros to help her finish Marco?
> 
> Bro, this ain’t a good look, just saying some random shit won’t stop people from reading the posts, most if not everyone here has a basic understanding of English... if I was to ask you to once post where and when anyone has said ‘Marco is a top tier admiral level dude’ please go and shame whoever it is, post the link and we can move on. If not concede or stop making posts altogether, shit is kinda annoying at this point. Heck the BM fans at this point know not to keep scratching on their wounds but you... you have no idea what you’re talking about.


“Did she not ask for his help?”

Thanks for proving my fucking point  

You got Marcos dick in your mouth that far that you have to be disingenuous. Why is that you can’t admit that she didn’t need his help if you don’t believe he’s as strong as she is????

This is some crazy ass hypocrisy you have been using all damn long in this thread man. But yet here your ass is pointing the finger at me?????

Please go look in the fucking mirror.


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## Beast (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Feats aren’t everything.
> 
> I said Katakuri was on the same level as Marco and that’s what I have always have said. If I’m bringing Luffy into any convo in a Marco thread it’s to prove that Marco isn’t Admiral level because I don’t expect even Luffy to be that strong at the end of this arc and I expect him to be stronger than Marco...
> 
> ...


So, now Kata has better potrayal and hype then Marco? or are you talking about fanfic? Kata I’m sure has more fanfic and dejos or whatever they’re called.

Both are FMs to a yonko, but exactly makes them equal? Marcos feats, portrayal and hype are above Katas, so what else does he need to be put above him? 
marco isn’t admiral level, maybe someOne said that to you earlier but not everything thinks that, what we do know though is Marco has better feats and portrayal then both Kata and Luffy... currently, you know what that means, not by the end of the arc but at chapter 995, Today in November 2020, Marco is above luffy and Kata, that will soon change with Luffy who is the MC but not Kata, who this thread is about.

I have read it and most of it is BS, hence why I keep replying and trying to help you understand, you seem to be having troubles understanding, thinking everyone thinks Marco is yonko/ admiral level, like it’s astonishing that you keep reaching to that conclusion... no matter who you’re arguing or whatever the topic of the thread is, as long as BM,
Marco, Kata or luffy are mentioned, you just seem to always end up with the same argument... ‘ no way Marco is Stronger then Luffy, Marco is not invincible’ yada yada yada.



OG sama said:


> “Did she not ask for his help?”
> 
> Thanks for proving my fucking point
> 
> ...


So now you can’t answer questions... it’s either a yes or a no.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Beast said:


> So, now Kata has better potrayal and hype then Marco? or are you talking about fanfic? Kata I’m sure has more fanfic and dejos or whatever they’re called.
> 
> Both are FMs to a yonko, but exactly makes them equal? Marcos feats, portrayal and hype are above Katas, so what else does he need to be put above him?
> marco isn’t admiral level, maybe someOne said that to you earlier but not everything thinks that, what we do know though is Marco has better feats and portrayal then both Kata and Luffy... currently, you know what that means, not by the end of the arc but at chapter 995, Today in November 2020, Marco is above luffy and Kata, that will soon change with Luffy who is the MC but not Kata, who this thread is about.
> ...


He’s stronger by feats than they are, but that doesn’t mean he is actually superior bruh that’s all I have been saying.

Jinbei has better feats against Top Tiers then Luffy does, but I don’t see a single soul saying that Jinbei is stronger than the current Luffy is.

^That makes sense to you? Cause it makes plenty sense to me.

Fine then, not everyone said that Marco is Admiral level but these disingenuous ass rebuttals would have anyone thinking otherwise.

You couldn’t even admit that BM didn’t need Peros help to kill Marco. She wanted to do that easier, because killing him takes TIME. That’s why she asked Pero to do it.

^I done said this shit a million damn times but you mean to tell me all you dickriders ever bring up is some shit I said about Luffy?? You can remember that but you can’t remember this??? Nibba please.



Beast said:


> So now you can’t answer questions... it’s either a yes or a no.


I’m asking YOU. Did BM need Peros help to kill Marco or did she just need him to make that much easier.

I will wait.


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## Beast (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> He’s stronger by feats than they are, but that doesn’t mean he is actually superior bruh that’s all I have been saying.
> 
> Jinbei has better feats against Top Tiers then Luffy does, but I don’t see a single soul saying that Jinbei is stronger than the current Luffy is.
> 
> ...


What have you been smoking?
Can someone  please link this guy to the battle dome rules.

you wrecked yourself with your own post.... it’s kinda... trippy but in bad way.




OG sama said:


> I’m asking YOU. Did BM need Peros help to kill Marco or did she just need him to make that much easier.
> 
> I will wait.


So, you’re gonna ask me the question I asked you?
since you’re behaving like a child, just this one time I will help the youth out.

YES, BM NEEDED PEROSPERO’S HELP TO POTENTIALLY PUT DOWN MARCO IN CHAPTER 995 OF ONE PIECE WRITTEN BY ODA.
Now, you see how clear that was all caps so you know I mean what I say and there is no room for speculations, so I’m gonna ask the same question but I only need a yes or no.

Did BM ask for her sons (perospero the candy man) for help in the midst of fighting Marco?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Beast said:


> What have you been smoking?
> Can someone  please link this guy to the battle dome rules.
> 
> you wrecked yourself with your own post.... it’s kinda... trippy but in bad way.
> ...


Oh my god bruh....   

Once again being disingenuous, how in the actual fuck does the actual chapter number in which she asked Pero to kill him have to do with the fact that she didn’t need his help to kill him??? That’s hella irrelevant to the reason why she needed his help!!! You can’t be this  stupid!!!!

Like this is a joke? You must be really fw me right now bruh. 

This is some Top Tier dickriding by you.

I want everyone in this thread to look at this shit and tell me I’m the wanker in this situation.

You still didn’t even answer my question, you might as well stop posting at this point, you have really flashed your true colors at me.

Well you did... but it was pretty bad lol.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> WB was the WSM, show me where it states he had the Worlds strongest pirate crew because this isn’t stated.


If Whitebeard is > the other Emperor's himself, that means that Marco can be > the other FM's as well.



OG sama said:


> Sure we don’t know how big Shanks crew is, but we have plenty of reas*on to believe his crew follow the quality over quantity rule*. Everytime we have seen Shanks arrive anywhere it’s been with just one ship small sample size it may be. While WB has fleets and over a 1000 allied fleets shown, BM has her thousands of kids and their fleets. Kaido has his thousands of crew members, Disasters, gifters, pleasures, numbers, flying 6, headliners. Shanks so far doesn’t seem to represent that, he probably is like the SHs who trust their core crew members and represents quality.


I asked for a substantive reason why Beckman is > Marco, now you're making things up.



OG sama said:


> If we go by your logic not only would Shanks be having a smaller crew but he would be having core crew members who are only just as strong as WBs or BMs or Kaidos, but they would have bigger fleets in addition. Now does that make much sense to you???
> 
> The only way Shanks having a smaller crew can work is if his members are stronger than the core of others Yonkos crew.


Yes, it makes sense to me. I ask *you *to give substantive evidence to support your claim that Shanks elites are superior to Whitebeards. So stop asking my opinion.


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> If Whitebeard is > the other Emperor's himself, that means that Marco can be > the other FM's as well.
> 
> 
> I asked for a substantive reason why Beckman is > Marco, now you're making things up.
> ...



That’s not a given, WB was stated to be the WSM his crew was never stated to be the strongest.

Did you even read the whole thing or are you just nitpicking things I said in this paragraph? I gave my reasoning and I gave supporting evidence for it. We don’t have much info to go on, any debate on how large Shanks crew is is going to be guess work.  You can’t prove his crew is huge just like I can’t prove it’s small, but I can come to what is a logical deduction  based off some small sample sized examples within the story of his crew being much smaller than Yonko crews. I’m not saying it’s a given, but it’s way better than just assuming his crew is really big based off nothing. Look man if you want to know why I believe Beckman is stronger than REREAD. Stop nitpicking sentences out of a whole entire paragraph and just read.

I’m only asking your opinion because you act like you can’t think for yourself. I have had to literally repeat myself millions of times to you in this thread. I have had to hold your hand in every damn post I have had on here responding to you. I need to make sure you understand what I’m telling you, because it doesn’t seem like your reading my post at all.

And I gave my evidence and you said it made sense so what’s the issue? We have a small sample size to go on, I worked with what little I had to come to a logical deduction on how big his crew could be. Could it be wrong sure, but neither you nor me can sit here and say we know for sure either way how big his crew is. The size of his crew should influence how strong his core members are compared to others. If his numbers are much smaller than his *core crew members would need to be stronger than the core* *crew members of other Yonko crews,* if it’s comparable then they probably aren’t.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> That’s not a given, WB was stated to be the WSM his crew was never stated to be the strongest.


Whitebeard was stronger than the other Emperor's by a noticable margin, so why can't Marco be stronger than the other Emperor FM's too?



OG sama said:


> Did you even read the whole thing or are you just nitpicking things I said in this paragraph? I gave my reasoning and I gave supporting evidence for it. We don’t have much info to go on, any debate on how large Shanks crew is is going to be guess work.  You can’t prove his crew is huge just like I can’t prove it’s small, but I can come to what is a logical deduction  based off some small sample sized examples within the story of his crew being much smaller than Yonko crews. I’m not saying it’s a given, but it’s way better than just assuming his crew is really big based off nothing. Look man if you want to know why I believe Beckman is stronger than REREAD. Stop nitpicking sentences out of a whole entire paragraph and just read.


It doesn't matter how large Shanks' crew is. You're jumping to the conclusion that that means Beckman, Rou and Yasopp need to be stronger than Marco, Jozu and Vista. We have no reason to believe the Red-hairs could fight all of Whitebeard's crew including all the thousands of fodder to an exact stand still, this is not something based in reality. Hence me questioning the substantiveness of your claim.



OG sama said:


> I’m only asking your opinion because you act like you can’t think for yourself. I have had to literally repeat myself millions of times to you in this thread. I have had to hold your hand in every damn post I have had on here responding to you. I need to make sure you understand what I’m telling you, because it doesn’t seem like your reading my post at all.






OG sama said:


> And I gave my evidence and you said it made sense so what’s the issue? We have a small sample size to go on, *I worked with what little I had to come to a logical deduction on how big his crew could be.* Could it be wrong sure, but neither you nor me can sit here and say we know for sure either way how big his crew is. The size of his crew should influence how strong his core members are compared to others.


No, you worked on flimsy evidence to leap to Shanks' core members being stronger than Whitebeard's:



OG sama said:


> If his numbers are much smaller than his *core crew members would need to be stronger than the core* *crew members of other Yonko crews,* if it’s comparable then they probably aren’t.



If you can't prove that Beckman is an exception, but still believe he is; your opinion is vacuous.

My opinion is that all FM's are not equal, which gives me a lot more freedom to evaluate Marco, Katakuri, Beckman, King individually. Which is what you *want* to do with Beckman, but can't do while staying at all consistent.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Nov 17, 2020)

Talking feat, Jinbei>Marco. Jinbei humiliated Big Mom twice while Marco became sitting duck when Big Mom grabbed his neck.   And look what Katakuri did to Jinbei. He dodged Jinbei attack, continued to dodge Bege+Pedro attack and pinned down Luffy. One YC level character who humiliated Big MOM+one veteran Pedro+one supernova Bege were helpless to stop Katakuri from pinning down Luffy and here we saw Big Mom so easily grabbed Marco's neck without Marco being able to do anything and sweating bucket.

Reactions: Like 1 | Creative 1


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Whitebeard was stronger than the other Emperor's by a noticable margin, so why can't Marco be stronger than the other Emperor FM's too?
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter how large Shanks' crew is. You're jumping to the conclusion that that means Beckman, Rou and Yasopp need to be stronger than Marco, Jozu and Vista. We have no reason to believe the Red-hairs could fight all of Whitebeard's crew including all the thousands of fodder to an exact stand still, this is not something based in reality. Hence me questioning the substantiveness of your claim.
> ...



I think Beckman is an outlier for reasons I have mentioned previously, Shanks and Beckman have a Rayleigh and Roger like dynamic that Marco and Whitebeard don’t have. The vivre cards stated that if Shanks was the sun then Beckman was the moon, they are like Yin and Yang, Shanks crew “seems” significantly smaller than other Yonko crews, Whitebeard is stronger than Shanks and has a “seemingly”much larger fleet  than Shanks does. So Beckman being stronger than Marco is while having a smaller crew makes sense and can work to help even things out a bit.

Im not saying this is a fact but I’m giving you my reasoning, we know little about the Red Hair Pirates so what else can I go on? You are acting like I’m the only one who feels this way, there’s a ton of people who think Beckman could be stronger than Marco is, and I think that’s a pretty big majority around here. They all use these same arguments because we have so little to go on man.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 17, 2020)

OG sama said:


> I think Beckman is an outlier for reasons I have mentioned previously, Shanks and Beckman have a Rayleigh and Roger like dynamic that Marco and Whitebeard don’t have. The vivre cards stated that if Shanks was the sun then Beckman was the moon, they are like Yin and Yang, Shanks crew “seems” significantly smaller than other Yonko crews, Whitebeard is stronger than Shanks and has a “seemingly”much larger fleet  than Shanks does. So Beckman being stronger than Marco is while having a smaller crew makes sense and can work to help even things out a bit.
> 
> Im not saying this is a fact but I’m giving you my reasoning, we know little about the Red Hair Pirates so what else can I go on? You are acting like I’m the only one who feels this way, there’s a ton of people who think Beckman could be stronger than Marco is, and I think that’s a pretty big majority around here. They all use these same arguments because we have so little to go on man.


I think Beckman could be stronger than Marco.

You're just being inconsistent, that's all. You can't just rhyme off you "reasons" as to why Beckman could be stronger than Marco and the others, while simultaneously holding that the others have exact parity. See what I'm getting at?

If you just let off your parity argument, I could agree to most of your points about Beckman. I could also list off plenty of my own for Marco: Right hand of a much stronger Emperor than Big Mom and Kaido; hyped by the Gorosei to do something the other Emperors could; fought Big Mom, Akainu, Kizaru; was portrayed with Jozu and even Vista to be able to help Whitebeard fight top-tiers like Mihawk and the Admirals in Marineford; BB became a Yonko after defeating him etc. Now, I dont want you to start shotgunning these down, I know you disagree with a majority of them, but you recognize that this is my own opinion like you have yours, no?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Nov 17, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Talking feat, Jinbei>Marco. Jinbei humiliated Big Mom twice while Marco became sitting duck when Big Mom grabbed his neck.   And look what Katakuri did to Jinbei. He dodged Jinbei attack, continued to dodge Bege+Pedro attack and pinned down Luffy. One YC level character who humiliated Big MOM+one veteran Pedro+one supernova Bege were helpless to stop Katakuri from pinning down Luffy and here we saw Big Mom so easily grabbed Marco's neck without Marco being able to do anything and sweating bucket.


Skinny Big Mom from hunger is weaker then her real self


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## Dragon D Xebec (Nov 17, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Skinny Big Mom from hunger is weaker then her real self


Big Mom was not skinny when she met Jinbei at Onigashima and Jinbei still threw her like a rag doll. Yet Jinbei with Bege and Pedro help were helpless from stopping Katakuri to pin down Luffy who tried to show Big Mom Carmel broken photo.


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> I think Beckman could be stronger than Marco.
> 
> You're just being inconsistent, that's all. You can't just rhyme off you "reasons" as to why Beckman could be stronger than Marco and the others, while simultaneously holding that the others have exact parity. See what I'm getting at?
> 
> If you just let off your parity argument, I could agree to most of your points about Beckman. I could also list off plenty of my own for Marco: Right hand of a much stronger Emperor than Big Mom and Kaido; hyped by the Gorosei to do something the other Emperors could; fought Big Mom, Akainu, Kizaru; was portrayed with Jozu and even Vista to be able to help Whitebeard fight top-tiers like Mihawk and the Admirals in Marineford; BB became a Yonko after defeating him etc. Now, I dont want you to start shotgunning these down, I know you disagree with a majority of them, but you recognize that this is my own opinion like you have yours, no?


Fair enough.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## TheWiggian (Nov 17, 2020)

He isn't that much more impressive if at all. There is no real way to prove it accurately tbh.

Marco:

- Possible CoC (based on him leading the remnants and some subordinates having CoC too)

- CoA (advanced, internal release) since Big Mom considers him being able to injure/kill her

- CoO (probably on a basic level)

- Ridiculous regeneration to the point of not even an Admiral being able to take him down easily

- Physical capabilities of clashing equally with both Admirals and Yonks

- Knowledge of a doctor providing him intel of weakpoints of the body of humans/creatures?


Katakuri:

- CoC

- CoA (intermediate level?) not portrayed capable of injuring extremely durable opponents so far

- CoO (advanced with future sight)

- Pseudo logia (can dodge most small scale attacks if calm), tricky hax

- Physical capabilities comparable to G4 Luffy+ (considering Luffy clashed shortly with Yonks)



There are alot assumptions involved.
They are more less in the same ballpark with each having their own advantages and disadvantages. But Marco is slightly portrayed better.


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## OG sama (Nov 17, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> He isn't that much more impressive if at all. There is no real way to prove it accurately tbh.
> 
> Marco:
> 
> ...



We don’t know if Marco has Advanced CoA and there’s nothing suggesting he might other than Izo having it but that doesn’t mean he himself is quite adept at this form of Haki that Izo is, Ace sailed with Izo and his Haki is average. And BM saying if he wants he can kill her another time does not mean he can hurt her or kill her.

She respects him enough to try, it’s just a respect thing from BM, she would probably tell King this exact same thing, it doesn’t mean they can do Jack shit to her though.

Marcos specialty is defense, his fighting style is more revolved around wearing his opponent down than using Brute force power to beat them. Advanced CoA would make Marco more well rounded but that’s exactly it, he’s extremely reliant on his DF power that I don’t think Advanced CoA really fits his style of fighting. It isn’t consistent with what we know of him, when he can’t rely on his healing he is a lot easier to beat evidenced by BB and BM grabbing him by the neck, leaving him in a hopeless situation. If he was a more well rounded fighter he wouldn’t have suffered an overwhelming defeat to BB. So Advanced Haki for him to me is out of the question.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Nov 18, 2020)

OG sama said:


> We don’t know if Marco has Advanced CoA and there’s nothing suggesting he might other than Izo having it but that doesn’t mean he himself is quite adept at this form of Haki that Izo is, Ace sailed with Izo and his Haki is average. And BM saying if he wants he can kill her another time does not mean he can hurt her or kill her.
> 
> She respects him enough to try, it’s just a respect thing from BM, she would probably tell King this exact same thing, it doesn’t mean they can do Jack shit to her though.
> 
> Marcos specialty is defense, his fighting style is more revolved around wearing his opponent down than using Brute force power to beat them. Advanced CoA would make Marco more well rounded but that’s exactly it, he’s extremely reliant on his DF power that I don’t think Advanced CoA really fits his style of fighting.



Everyone and thei mother will show the advanced version of CoA soon, it's just a matter of time. And Marco been set up to chase after Big Mom now even if he will get distracted by some things.


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## OG sama (Nov 18, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Everyone and thei mother will show the advanced version of CoA soon, it's just a matter of time. And Marco been set up to chase after Big Mom now even if he will get distracted by some things.


Baseless. Maybe more people will show this form of Haki but definitely not everyone and there’s nothing suggesting that Marco has to be this person.

He’s going to chase after her again, but I’m willing to bet the next time he faces her he’s going to need the SHs and the Samurais help to slow her down. While Luffy and the others are throwing an army at Kaido I find it incredibly unlikely that Marco is going to be stalling BM by his self, especially not when guys like Brook, Robin, Jinbei and Franky have shown that they are capable of this as a team. We got all these people that can aid Marco, it makes no sense for him to do it alone, other than just wank when this is a war setting.


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## TheWiggian (Nov 18, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Baseless. Maybe more people will show this form of Haki but definitely not everyone and there’s nothing suggesting that Marco has to be this person.
> 
> He’s going to chase after her again, but I’m willing to bet the next time he faces her he’s going to need the SHs and the Samurais help to slow her down. While Luffy and the others are throwing an army at Kaido I find it incredibly unlikely that Marco is going to be stalling BM by his self, especially not when guys like Brook, Robin, Jinbei and Franky have shown that they are capable of this as a team. We got all these people that can aid Marco, it makes no sense for him to do it alone, other than just wank when this is a war setting.



It's not. There are several characters that will have a shot at those "invicible characters" and it will be very painful to watch and Marco is already set up against 1 of them. At this point it's just like believing only Enma and Ame no Habakiri can pierce Kaido's flesh.


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## OG sama (Nov 18, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> It's not. There are several characters that will have a shot at those "invicible characters" and it will be very painful to watch and Marco is already set up against 1 of them. At this point it's just like believing only Enma and Ame no Habakiri can pierce Kaido's flesh.


He’s being set up to stall her not beat her or come anywhere close to doing that by his self. Like I said he probably won’t even be doing the stalling all by his self because there’s so many people that can help.

You have nothing proving that Marco needs to showcase Advanced CoA other than you just simply wanting him to, the SHs can’t hope to harm BM but they have showed the capabilities to stall her and keep her away from the big battle, they work together with Marco and that job gets easier. No reason why Marco should be doing this all alone other than wank.

Stop being stubborn.


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## TheWiggian (Nov 18, 2020)

OG sama said:


> He’s being set up to stall her not beat her or come anywhere close to doing that by his self. Like I said he probably won’t even be doing the stalling all by his self because there’s so many people that can help.
> 
> You have nothing proving that Marco needs to showcase Advanced CoA other than you just simply wanting him to, the SHs can’t hope to harm BM but they have showed the capabilities to stall her and keep her away from the big battle, they work together with Marco and that job gets easier. No reason why Marco should be doing this all alone other than wank.
> 
> Stop being stubborn.



If nothing means that Marco been brought for the war against the alliance as one of the top strongest characters on Luffy's side and already been set up twice against Big Mom and her crew, "set up AGAIN" against her in the coming chapters and been hinted at to at least injure her then yes i have nothing. And the only way for that is advanced haki.

I mean there is definitely someone else from the strawhat forces that has been build up by far more than Marco for that.


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## OG sama (Nov 18, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> If nothing means that Marco been brought for the war against the alliance as one of the top strongest characters on Luffy's side and already been set up twice against Big Mom and her crew, "set up AGAIN" against her in the coming chapters and been hinted at to at least injure her then yes i have nothing. And the only way for that is advanced haki.
> 
> I mean there is definitely someone else from the strawhat forces that has been build up by far more than Marco for that.


Like I told you, wanting to kill someone and actually being able to are two completely different things. That line does not prove that Marco can injure BM.

I literally don’t know how many times I have to tell you this but I’m not repeating myself again.

Marco doesn’t have to do what Luffy does, all Marco needs to do is stall BM and keep her away from Luffy. Something the SHs can help him do, they don’t have to injure her or beat her but keep her occupied til Luffy and the others beat Kaido. 


I’m just going in circles with you, its obvious you are just being stubborn because you want Marco to pull this shit off by his self while everybody is throwing an army at Kaido. No point in going in circles with you any further SMH.

The immortal Bird Marco is going to stall BM by his self for the rest of the arc while everyone else is ganging up on Kaido. Makes perfect sense. All hail Chicken bros fans.


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## TheWiggian (Nov 18, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Like I told you, wanting to kill someone and actually being able to are two completely different things. That line does not prove that Marco can injure BM.
> 
> I literally don’t know how many times I have to tell you this but I’m not repeating myself again.
> 
> ...



It's not claimed by Marco but stated by his opponent. The possibility is very high, especially since she just clashed with him and ran with her homies already defeated.


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## OG sama (Nov 18, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> It's not claimed by Marco but stated by his opponent. The possibility is very high, especially since she just clashed with him and ran with her homies already defeated.


I know I’m not gone change your mind on this man, I guess we will see then.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Nov 18, 2020)

OG sama said:


> I know I’m not gone change your mind on this man, I guess we will see then.



You can mention or quote me when the time comes and i give you a big rep.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Beast (Nov 18, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> He isn't that much more impressive if at all. There is no real way to prove it accurately tbh.
> 
> Marco:
> 
> ...


Marco can’t have basic CoO, it’s already been stated inside Kizarus VC, that you need a very high level of CoO to keep up with his speed and Marco was able to do just that.


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## Naisutime (Nov 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Talking feat, Jinbei>Marco. Jinbei humiliated Big Mom twice while Marco became sitting duck when Big Mom grabbed his neck.   And look what Katakuri did to Jinbei. He dodged Jinbei attack, continued to dodge Bege+Pedro attack and pinned down Luffy. One YC level character who humiliated Big MOM+one veteran Pedro+one supernova Bege were helpless to stop Katakuri from pinning down Luffy and here we saw Big Mom so easily grabbed Marco's neck without Marco being able to do anything and sweating bucket.



So Katakuri>Jinbei>BM(=Kaidou)>Marco assuming that feats are transitive.

Now that is a creative way of justifying toppest of top tier Katakuri if I've ever seen one.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Beast (Nov 18, 2020)

Naisutime said:


> So Katakuri>Jinbei>BM(=Kaidou)>Marco assuming that feats are transitive.
> 
> Now that is a creative way of justifying toppest of top tier Katakuri if I've ever seen one.


Looool

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Nov 18, 2020)

Beast said:


> Marco can’t have basic CoO, it’s already been stated inside Kizarus VC, that you need a very high level of CoO to keep up with his speed and Marco was able to do just that.



Him intercepting 1 attack and kicking him once doesn't require that advanced vision unlike in Ray's case where he exchanged fierce sword clashes with the yellow monkey.


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## Strobacaxi (Nov 18, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> If Whitebeard is > the other Emperor's himself, that means that Marco can be > the other FM's as well.


If Wb is >the other emperors, and the emprerors are all matched in overall power, that means that WB's crew was the weakest crew, and Marco could very likely be the weakest FM.


Beast said:


> YES, BM NEEDED PEROSPERO’S HELP TO POTENTIALLY PUT DOWN MARCO IN CHAPTER 995 OF ONE PIECE WRITTEN BY ODA.


Wrong. She needed Peros help to stop Marco. Peros giant arrow wasn't meant to kill or knock out Marco, it was to pin him down and stop his movements. His fruit is perfect for stalling, BM didn't want to be stalled, Peros was the easy way out.

Also, using Peros and NEEDING to use Peros are different things. Luffy didn't need to use G4 against fodders for example.


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## Beast (Nov 18, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Him intercepting 1 attack and kicking him once doesn't require that advanced vision unlike in Ray's case where he exchanged fierce sword clashes with the yellow monkey.


He didn’t just intercept one attack, Marco and Kizaru clashed on multiple times, most of it being offpanel doesn’t take away that it took Kizaru the help of VA with cuffs to only SLOW DOWN Marco. So, if Marco didn’t have the OH to deal with Kizaru, KiAru wouldn’t have called for help and would have just dealt with him by himself using his speed.


Strobacaxi said:


> Wrong. She needed Peros help to stop Marco. Peros giant arrow wasn't meant to kill or knock out Marco, it was to pin him down and stop his movements. His fruit is perfect for stalling, BM didn't want to be stalled, Peros was the easy way out.
> 
> Also, using Peros and NEEDING to use Peros are different things. Luffy didn't need to use G4 against fodders for example.


No, you are wrong, don’t take your interpretation of what MIGHT have happen to mean fact.

BM called to for Peros help to put down Marco, whether that would have put him down is a whole different topic in itself.

she didn’t use Peros as if he was just a weapon, SHE CALLS for his help, Peros even mentions that despite just being friendly with Marco recently and hating on much more before, he still has to listen to BM. if BM didn’t NEED Peros help to finish Marco, she would have done it herself even AFTER Peros was taken out of the equation but NOPE, she dips as she didn’t HAVE Peros help ANY LONGER.

you really came to prove nothing, try again at another time bruh. BM needed Peros AT THAT MOMENT to help her put down Marco, she could not have done it BY HERSELF, that is a fact, a manga fact.


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## Strobacaxi (Nov 18, 2020)

Beast said:


> No, you are wrong, don’t take your interpretation of what MIGHT have happen to mean fact.


??? Are you trying to say BM doesn't know about Marco's DF? Or are you saying she's too dumb to realize that Peros attacks can't actually hurt Marco? Or perhaps you're saying that Peros little arrow is a stronger attack than anything BM can do?



Beast said:


> she didn’t use Peros as if he was just a weapon, SHE CALLS for his help, Peros even mentions that despite just being friendly with Marco recently and hating on much more before, he still has to listen to BM.



BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T WANT TO FIGHT MARCO BECAUSE SHE KNOWS SHE CAN'T QUICKLY KILL HIM
Did you skip the whole "annoying to be on the sidelines" and the whole fucking reason BM even is here to begin with? ITS TO FIGHT LUFFY, NO ONE ELSE



Beast said:


> if BM didn’t NEED Peros help to finish Marco, she would have done it herself even AFTER Peros was taken out of the equation but NOPE, she dips as she didn’t HAVE Peros help ANY LONGER.


Ah ok, so you confirm. You think Peros arrow is stronger than anything BM can do.
Congratulations, you just claimed the guy who isn't even a commander is stronger than the yonkou he answers to. 



Beast said:


> BM needed Peros AT THAT MOMENT to help her put down Marco, she could not have done it BY HERSELF, that is a fact.


Head canon you mean? 
Again, I assume Luffy without G4 is unable to defeat those fodders right? I mean, he used it, so he could not have done it without it, that is a fact. Right?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Nov 18, 2020)

Beast said:


> He didn’t just intercept one attack, Marco and Kizaru clashed on multiple times, most of it being offpanel doesn’t take away that it took Kizaru the help of VA with cuffs to only SLOW DOWN Marco. So, if Marco didn’t have the OH to deal with Kizaru, KiAru wouldn’t have called for help and would have just dealt with him by himself using his speed.



Kizaru couldn't deal with Marco's regeneration same way Big Meme couldn't but instead of running away like the Yonk did, Kizaru found a effective way around it. Here you can see the difference between Yonks and Admirals that despite being equally matched in strenght and powers, Admirals are also disciplined generals of the battlefield with a strategic mind and not stupid clowns. Kizaru didn't clash much with Marco after tanking his kick, he was busy off-panel until Marco's powers were sealed off and he shot him again. After all Kizaru dealt alot with Luffy and intercepted Whitebeard, while Marco couldn't do anything because of the handcuffs until Ace got killed.


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## Beast (Nov 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> ??? Are you trying to say BM doesn't know about Marco's DF? Or are you saying she's too dumb to realize that Peros attacks can't actually hurt Marco? Or perhaps you're saying that Peros little arrow is a stronger attack than anything BM can do?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you saying BM an enemy of Marcos is suppose to know everything about his fruit? Read what I say since you have problems understanding.... BM NEEDED OUTSIDE intervention to have a chance of put Marco down QUICKLY or quicker then she could have on her OWN, that outside intervention turned out to be no other then her son perospero.

well there you have it, BM can not deal with Marco quickly and their clash and everything was very short, so BM could not beat Marco in the given time as she is not that much stronger then him. Marco is not a mid tier and is apart of the highest level of higher tiers, the level just under top tier or low top tier, if that’s what you want to call him.

no, I can confirm however that you have zero reading comprehension skill.

what you think or what you want is the same as what is directly on panel, BM did not or could not put Marco down without help at the time, once help was no longer available... she left him alone.


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## Beast (Nov 18, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Kizaru couldn't deal with Marco's regeneration same way Big Meme couldn't but instead of running away like the Yonk did, Kizaru found a effective way around it. Here you can see the difference between Yonks and Admirals that despite being equally matched in strenght and powers, Admirals are also disciplined generals of the battlefield with a strategic mind and not stupid clowns. Kizaru didn't clash much with Marco after tanking his kick, he was busy off-panel until Marco's powers were sealed off and he shot him again. After all Kizaru dealt alot with Luffy and intercepted Whitebeard, while Marco couldn't do anything because of the handcuffs until Ace got killed.


Regen is one thing, having the speed and KH to keep up with Kizaru is another. Marco is not a punching bag... I don’t know how many times I have to repeat this, he sent Aokiji and Kizaru flying with a kick for god sake.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Nov 18, 2020)

Naisutime said:


> So Katakuri>Jinbei>BM(=Kaidou)>Marco assuming that feats are transitive.
> 
> Now that is a creative way of justifying toppest of top tier Katakuri if I've ever seen one.


Tbf people just overhype Marco's feat against Big Mom and rate Marco higher than Katakuri when what he did against Big Mom was not that impressive. Yeah he clashed with Big Mom who used Prometheus but so did Luffy when he used Elephant Gun with Sanji's help  to stop Big Mom attacking Reiju. Luffy with his Elephant Gun also stopped Big Mom enhanced Zeus from killing Reiju like what Marco did although I think Luffy did not really need Sanji's help and Luffy Elephnat Gun was just one shot material for restrained Katakuri. yet people talked if Marco's AP>Katakuri AP. Once Big Mom grabbed Marco's neck, Marco can't do anything and he was sweating bucket.

As for Katakuri I think he is around Marco's level. Maybe more if I'm biased.  There are hype around Katakuri that makes him one of the strongest YC.
- Rayleigh said one of the strongest people can use FS. Making Katakuri one of the strongest character.
- This chapter also Marco said he knew how dangerous Big Mom is. Perospero said  he always want to kill Marco. So BMP including Katakuri fought WBP and Katakuri still has undefeated record until he fought Luffy. Although Katakuri fell on his back on purpose and Katakuri didn't finish off Luffy and went to Marienda and also Luffy needed Brulee help to escape so I think the fight was a draw.
- The question is who did Katakuri fight from WBP? Did he fight fodders? I think he fought YC. There re two reasons: First, Katakuri in WCI always want to eliminate the biggest threat, Luffy so I think he did the same thing against WBP, eliminating the biggest threat, Marco or other YC. Second, when he was hit by Gear four, he said it has been a long time since he got hit. People who can hit him are YC or yonko so another point he might fight YC from WBP and got hit.
- Also notice Katakuri never fel on his back when he fought Luffy just to keep his persona status as undefeated fighter, so basically when Katakuri fough WBP, he tried so hard not to fall on his back when he fought YC so Katakuri was nerfed basically while other YC can fall on their back when they get hit since they don't need to keep undefeated status persona.
- And with that nerfed condition fighting YC, Katakuri was still undefeated. That speak volume for Katakuri's strength.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Naisutime (Nov 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Tbf people just overhype Marco's feat against Big Mom and rate Marco higher than Katakuri when what he did against Big Mom was not that impressive. Yeah he clashed with Big Mom who used Prometheus but so did Luffy when he used Elephant Gun with Sanji's help  to stop Big Mom attacking Reiju. Luffy with his Elephant Gun also stopped Big Mom enhanced Zeus from killing Reiju like what Marco did although I think Luffy did not really need Sanji's help and Luffy Elephnat Gun was just one shot material for restrained Katakuri. yet people talked if Marco's AP>Katakuri AP. Once Big Mom grabbed Marco's neck, Marco can't do anything and he was sweating bucket.
> 
> As for Katakuri I think he is around Marco's level. Maybe more if I'm biased.  There are hype around Katakuri that makes him one of the strongest YC.
> - Rayleigh said one of the strongest people can use FS. Making Katakuri one of the strongest character.
> ...



I was just poking a little fun at you tbh. The only point of my comment is that feats aren't really transitive as you can get wierd ass circular arguments like Kaidou>Luffy>Katakuri>Jinbei>BM(=Kaidou) or for example Mihawk>Dofla>Jozu>Mihawk. 

Never thought that economic theory would be applied to a discussion about feats in One Piece, but here we are.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Nov 18, 2020)

Kata fought with WBP and he is still undefeated.... I would like to see who and where this happened.


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## TheWiggian (Nov 18, 2020)

Beast said:


> Regen is one thing, having the speed and KH to keep up with Kizaru is another. Marco is not a punching bag... I don’t know how many times I have to repeat this, he sent Aokiji and Kizaru flying with a kick for god sake.



Doesn't matter since those are single instances and not a continuous exchange of blows. Based on his combat as shown at MF there is no need for him to have advanced CoO on the level of the Dark King as stated in the databook.


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## Beast (Nov 18, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Doesn't matter since those are single instances and not a continuous exchange of blows. Based on his combat as shown at MF there is no need for him to have advanced CoO on the level of the Dark King as stated in the databook.


Marco faced Lizaru numerous times through MF, no sure why that mean he has basic KH when it’s been STATED that you need a high level of KH to have any chance of fighting Kizaru BECAUSE of his speed... did Marco look like he was struggling with Kizarus speed as he intercepted his lasers? Closed the gap and sent him flying the other side of MF?
You’re stretching it, Marco fought Kizaru roughly as long as Ray did, probably even longer, so no... Marco is not being put down as a basic KH user after facing Kizaru and 4 other top tiers and holding his own.


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## TheWiggian (Nov 18, 2020)

Beast said:


> Marco faced Lizaru numerous times through MF, no sure why that mean he has basic KH when it’s been STATED that you need a high level of KH to have any chance of fighting Kizaru BECAUSE of his speed... did Marco look like he was struggling with Kizarus speed as he intercepted his lasers? Closed the gap and sent him flying the other side of MF?
> You’re stretching it, Marco fought Kizaru roughly as long as Ray did, probably even longer, so no... Marco is not being put down as a basic KH user after facing Kizaru and 4 other top tiers and holding his own.



He didn't he intercepted an attack aimed at WB and kicked him away, that's it.


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## Beast (Nov 18, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> He didn't he intercepted an attack aimed at WB and kicked him away, that's it.


They faced up again, and just like Jozu it took a distraction to only slow down Marco, unlike Jozu who was out of the game. 
so, no I don’t see how Marco could preform AT ALL without good KH Against Kizaru, when it’s been stated otherwise already.


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## Nikseng (Nov 18, 2020)

Beast said:


> They faced up again, and just like Jozu it took a distraction to only slow down Marco, unlike Jozu who was out of the game.
> so, no I don’t see how Marco could preform AT ALL without good KH Against Kizaru, when it’s been stated otherwise already.


Good point.
To be taken out, not only they (Kizaru) needed Marco to be distracted, but also an external help, and also seastone cuffs.
It's quite a lot for someone " far from the top tiers ".


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## TheWiggian (Nov 18, 2020)

Beast said:


> They faced up again, and just like Jozu it took a distraction to only slow down Marco, unlike Jozu who was out of the game.
> so, no I don’t see how Marco could preform AT ALL without good KH Against Kizaru, when it’s been stated otherwise already.



They didn't face again, Marco was running and got shot without being able to react to it. So no his showings don't justify advanced observation at MF.


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## xmysticgohanx (Nov 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Big Mom was not skinny when she met Jinbei at Onigashima and Jinbei still threw her like a rag doll. Yet Jinbei with Bege and Pedro help were helpless from stopping Katakuri to pin down Luffy who tried to show Big Mom Carmel broken photo.


While a cool feat, throwing someone isn’t the same as clashing strength wise. One just takes lifting them.

with that being said, big mom is quite embarrassing. I’m glad Oda put her and Kaido clashing though


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## Dragon D Xebec (Nov 18, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> While a cool feat, throwing someone isn’t the same as clashing strength wise. One just takes lifting them.
> 
> with that being said, big mom is quite embarrassing. I’m glad Oda put her and Kaido clashing though


Would be impressive if after Marco clashed with prometheus, Marco can hurt Big Mom like Jinbei did or survive but no. Jinbei can still move freely afterward unlike Marco who became a sitting duck and was sweating bucket. Jinbei showed better feat than Marco. Marco clashed with Big Mom homie Prometheus is not impressive since Luffy already did the same thing when Luffy with Elephant Gun and Sanji DJ clashed with Big Mom homie Zeus to stop Big Mom from killing Reiju. Honestly Luffy didn't need Sanji help imo. And Luffy's Elephant Gun was one shot material to restrained Katakuri. Nothing impressive from Marco in term of AP since Luffy did the same thing with his Elephant Gun and the same Luffy got one shot by restrained Katakuri when their fist clashed.


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## Beast (Nov 18, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> They didn't face again, Marco was running and got shot without being able to react to it. So no his showings don't justify advanced observation at MF.


I didn’t say advanced... only good KH and definitely not basic.
Marco turned towards WB and started running, this doesn’t mean he wasn’t facing Kizaru, more so the opposite as Kizaru took a cheap shot Marco as did Aokiji did Jozu because they were already facing off.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 18, 2020)

I don't think people understand that if Roger was alive, with Oden, Rayleigh, Scopper and his very large crew, he would still be a Yonko if he didn't find One Piece. They are not neccesarily equal.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> If Wb is >the other emperors, and the emprerors are all matched in overall power, that means that WB's crew was the weakest crew, and Marco could very likely be the weakest FM.


I don't think people understand that if Roger was alive, with Oden, Rayleigh, Scopper and his very large crew, he would still be a Yonko if he didn't find One Piece. They are not neccesarily equal.


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## xmysticgohanx (Nov 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Would be impressive if after Marco clashed with prometheus, Marco can hurt Big Mom like Jinbei did or survive but no. Jinbei can still move freely afterward unlike Marco who became a sitting duck and was sweating bucket. Jinbei showed better feat than Marco. Marco clashed with Big Mom homie Prometheus is not impressive since Luffy already did the same thing when Luffy with Elephant Gun and Sanji DJ clashed with Big Mom homie Zeus to stop Big Mom from killing Reiju. Honestly Luffy didn't need Sanji help imo. And Luffy's Elephant Gun was one shot material to restrained Katakuri. Nothing impressive from Marco in term of AP since Luffy did the same thing with his Elephant Gun and the same Luffy got one shot by restrained Katakuri when their fist clashed.


I disagree, Marco’s feat is clearly better.

marco sweated bullets for one panel, didn’t care in the next

big mom even implied that Marco can kill her


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## Dragon D Xebec (Nov 19, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> I disagree, Marco’s feat is clearly better.
> 
> marco sweated bullets for one panel, didn’t care in the next
> 
> big mom even implied that Marco can kill her


Clashing with BM homie is nothing impressive. Luffy did too with his Elephant Gun and look what Katakuri did to Luffy Elephant Gun, Katakuri completely overpowered it with his own version without going all out. Nothing impressive from Marco AP wise. Big Mom said to Marco if you want to kill me. Nothing implied Marco can kill Big Mom.

Jinbei feat is more impressive. Marco got grabbed without being able to do anything later while Jinbei threw Big Mom and Big Mom was not seen afterward. Marco was sweating bucket when Big Mom grabbed his neck.


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## Strobacaxi (Nov 19, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> I don't think people understand that if Roger was alive, with Oden, Rayleigh, Scopper and his very large crew, he would still be a Yonko if he didn't find One Piece. They are not neccesarily equal.


Well Oda says they're equal, so I'm going with that

Roger's crew was a match for WB's crew. They weren't some kind of gods walking on earth. If he was still alive, his crew would be old, and they would be as powerful as the other yonkous, just like WB


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## Beast (Nov 19, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Well Oda says they're equal, so I'm going with that
> 
> Roger's crew was a match for WB's crew. They weren't some kind of gods walking on earth. If he was still alive, his crew would be old, and they would be as powerful as the other yonkous, just like WB


Loooool, saying it out, doesn’t make it true.
Roger was a match for WB on  panel, how the rest of the crew match up was offpanelled but it was a friendly match for loot to matter or draw conclusion anyway.
Ray could have solo’d the rest of the WBPs if we are being serious (minus Oden of course).

But hey, tell yourself that Kata and cracker or Queen and Jack could be a match for Rayleigh and Oden lmao.


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## Strobacaxi (Nov 19, 2020)

Beast said:


> Loooool, saying it out, doesn’t make it true.
> Roger was a match for WB on panel, how the rest of the crew match up was offpanelled but it was a friendly match for loot to matter or draw conclusion anyway.


It was a 3 day war. But sure, Roger's crew was a million times stronger, right? Your headcanon is not above the manga. It was a "Friendly match to the death" lol It was as friendly as BM vs Kaidou. It was a fight that from the start both sides knew would not end in any side's victory. That's the only friendliness there was



Beast said:


> Ray could have solo’d the rest of the WBPs if we are being serious (minus Oden of course).


Sure he could. That's why he never did right? Surely WB and Roger never ever fought seriously right?



Beast said:


> But hey, tell yourself that Kata and cracker or Queen and Jack could be a match for Rayleigh and Oden lmao.


Kata, King and Ben Beckman probably are a match for old Ray I don't see why they wouldn't be.

And again, Yonkous are equal WAS SAID BY ODA IN THE MANGA
You do not know more than Oda, k?


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## Beast (Nov 19, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Clashing with BM homie is nothing impressive. Luffy did too with his Elephant Gun and look what Katakuri did to Luffy Elephant Gun, Katakuri completely overpowered it with his own version without going all out. Nothing impressive from Marco AP wise. Big Mom said to Marco if you want to kill me. Nothing implied Marco can kill Big Mom.
> 
> Jinbei feat is more impressive. Marco got grabbed without being able to do anything later while Jinbei threw Big Mom and Big Mom was not seen afterward. Marco was sweating bucket when Big Mom grabbed his neck.


Your reasoning has been disproven already... so, why do you keep copying and pasting the same thing?

let spell out the differences for you... 

BM and Marco is 1v1.
BM is attacking someone else When Luffy AND sanji both intercept the attack. 
BM is one focused else where and not at Luffy or sanji, two it’s two characters intercepting the attack and three, in the same arc ONCE luffy was going against BM solo, he was kicked straight of G4, so no those two feats are not comparable and the way you reach to make the connection is borderline retarded.
Marcos AP is as impressive if not more so then Katas. Can Kata do the same against BM? Clash with her fist for fist and not be blown away? I don’t think so.

Now, Jinbe... Marco is facing a full sane and health BM, Jinbe was able to quickly outmanoeuvre BM that had one thought on her mind... cake, now I don’t need to speak on everything that happened to BM as she went on her wild Cake chase, Chopper took her attacks and as you clearly described even Jinbe sent her flying. Jinbes feat is clean but BM was not in her best state and was having her fit.


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## Beast (Nov 19, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> It was a 3 day war. But sure, Roger's crew was a million times stronger, right? Your headcanon is not above the manga. It was a "Friendly match to the death" lol It was as friendly as BM vs Kaidou. It was a fight that from the start both sides knew would not end in any side's victory. That's the only friendliness there was
> 
> 
> Sure he could. That's why he never did right? Surely WB and Roger never ever fought seriously right?
> ...


Who said it was to the death lmao? 
it was a looting party, at least try to read the chapters properly, it’s as friendly as Kaidou and BM? Looooool.
Both sides knew? What are you talking about? Roger seemed out Oden but hey, considering your reading skills
I’m not sure if you picked up on that.

maybe... no, probably you don’t remember but Ray is the only one not shown jumping for joy at the sight of this battle and without any bandages after
The so called three day fight to the death lol.  Roger and WB couldn’t have a serious fight in that island or it would have sunk and their apprentices and men would have drowned or killed in the cross fire. WB and Roger did seriously fight at the Rox war though.

Ben yes because he has the hype... nor king or Kata, they don’t have the hype, portrayal or feats of old Ray, who was held in the same light as WB the strongest yonko, King and kata far superior captains. Ben can get the benefit of doubt as he does actually have the hype and portrayal of being a partner to his captain like Ray.

Except he didn’t, not once have I seen such a statement. Only that they kept each other at bay in the NW... Roger being alive would have upset the balance and unlike WB, Roger is very ambitious.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dragon D Xebec (Nov 19, 2020)

Beast said:


> Your reasoning has been disproven already... so, why do you keep copying and pasting the same thing?
> 
> let spell out the differences for you...
> 
> ...


Nothing is disproven. Doesn't matter who did Big Mom attack she had no reason to hold back. Marco stopped Big Mom attack the same way Luffy and Sanji stopped Big Mom attack. Luffy used Elephant Gun btw.

This is Luffy Elephant Gun vs Big Mom homie Zeus the same way Marco vs Big Mom homie Prometheus.


Similar with Marco vs Big Mom homie Prometheus and this is what Katakuri did to Luffy Elephant Gun WITHOUT GOING ALL OUT



lol yes even if Sanji helped Luffy here like what Luffy and Sanji did against Big Mom homie Zeus, Katakuri would still overpower both Luffy and Sanji. Katakuri held back a lot in the above picture and still easily overpowerd Luffy Elephant Gun which Luffy used on Big Mom, similar attack Big Mom used on Marco. Even if it's Katakuri vs Luffy Elephant Gun+Sanji DJ, Katakuri only need to become more serious and it's back to Katakuri overpowers Luffy Elephant Gun+Sanji DJ the same attack they used on Big Mom and the same attack Big Mom used on Marco. Katakuri own version of his Elehant Gun without going all out>>>>Marco AP lol.

Big Mom used CoA against Gear four. CoA made a big dfference. Sanji without CoA got overpowered by puny genie Daifuku yet when Sanji used CoA, his kicks matched Daifuku giant genie that sinked several Big Mom ships.



Beast said:


> Now, Jinbe... Marco is facing a full sane and health BM, Jinbe was able to quickly outmanoeuvre BM that had one thought on her mind... cake, now I don’t need to speak on everything that happened to BM as she went on her wild Cake chase, Chopper took her attacks and as you clearly described even Jinbe sent her flying. Jinbes feat is clean but BM was not in her best state and was having her fit.


Big Mom was sane and not skinny in Onigashima and Jinbei still threw her easily like a rag doll. Marco's feat is nowhere impressive as jinbei who was helpless to stop Katakuri from pinning down Luffy even with Pedro and Bege help. lol.


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## Sloan (Nov 19, 2020)

Why didn’t Robin go with Law to decipher the Poneglyh?  

There able to do that thing Inguess where they “steal” it


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## Beast (Nov 19, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Nothing is disproven. Doesn't matter who did Big Mom attack she had no reason to hold back. Marco stopped Big Mom attack the same way Luffy and Sanji stopped Big Mom attack. Luffy used Elephant Gun btw.
> 
> This is Luffy Elephant Gun vs Big Mom homie Zeus the same way Marco vs Big Mom homie Prometheus.
> 
> ...


Think straight... Having your attack intercepted by someone else not the person you’re attacking and having your attack matched by the person you are attacking... is not the same for one.
Two it took two people to do the intercepting, compared to the one single opponent matching your blow with their own... why is that so hard for you to understand. 2 v1 and 1 v1 is a clear as day and interception is a big thing... it happens, it happened all throughout MF. Daz bones intercepted an attack from Mihawk the WSS, Daz bones however could not match Mihawks sword aimed at him, now was Mihawk not trying before he got intercepted by Daz? Of course he was but that’s not he aimed his attack towards.

are we going to act as if Sanji isn’t there also countering the attack with his own DJ attack? Or does that not suit your needs?

No, that’s called fanfic. That Kata would have overpowered a combined attack from Sanji and Luffy, it’s a baseless assumption and one I won’t entertain, Kata is not doing things BM could not, she far out classes him in physical strength and BH, so why would Kata achieve better results and too make things even worse... you know what still hasn’t changed? 
kata was facing off against Luffy DIRECTLY, BM was not, clear cut difference.

So, I don’t understand... like how does your brain work to make these assumptions, put them together and think... this is facts? 
you have not proven how Interceptinf an attack is remotely similar to matching one attack with your own directly?
I want know what maths did you actually use to figure out the difference in power between Sanji and luffy attacking together and separately, that you can perfectly combine the force of their attack perfectly to figure out how it would compare in result to when they do it separately? Ima bold that statement and you won’t be seeing a reply from me again, only laughs from a distance. I’ll bold it, so people can laugh with me.

You see how little things like that matter... so apply those same tactical deduction to this and you should be able to to do it, I’ve done a big part of it for you already.

it’s like your jokes don’t end, you ain’t even giving me a break lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Nov 19, 2020)

Beast said:


> I didn’t say advanced... only good KH and definitely not basic.
> Marco turned towards WB and started running, this doesn’t mean he wasn’t facing Kizaru, more so the opposite as Kizaru took a cheap shot Marco as did Aokiji did Jozu because they were already facing off.



It is basic considering I throw special traits like future sight into the advanced version. Dunno how you split the abilities up though.

Also Kizaru's card says only people who are good with observation can follow him, doesn't mean it has to be advanced but a very good base would do it too. Considering how rare something like future sight was portrayed so far I doubt you need something of that calibre to keep up with him.


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## Beast (Nov 19, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> It is basic considering I throw special traits like future sight into the advanced version. Dunno how you split the abilities up though.
> 
> Also Kizaru's card says only people who are good with observation can follow him, doesn't mean it has to be advanced but a very good base would do it too. Considering how rare something like future sight was portrayed so far I doubt you need something of that calibre to keep up with him.


Basic is what fodders like Tashigi use.
Which is just not possible for a character like Marco sailing with the best for over 35 years as his right hand man no less, there should nothing basic about Marco.


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## TheWiggian (Nov 19, 2020)

Beast said:


> Basic is what fodders like Tashigi use.
> Which is just not possible for a character like Marco sailing with the best for over 35 years as his right hand man no less, there should nothing basic about Marco.



It's what someone like Sanji uses currently guess that makes him fodder too


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## Dragon D Xebec (Nov 19, 2020)

Beast said:


> Think straight... Having your attack intercepted by someone else not the person you’re attacking and having your attack matched by the person you are attacking... is not the same for one.
> Two it took two people to do the intercepting, compared to the one single opponent matching your blow with their own... why is that so hard for you to understand. 2 v1 and 1 v1 is a clear as day and interception is a big thing... it happens, it happened all throughout MF. Daz bones intercepted an attack from Mihawk the WSS, Daz bones however could not match Mihawks sword aimed at him, now was Mihawk not trying before he got intercepted by Daz? Of course he was but that’s not he aimed his attack towards.
> 
> are we going to act as if Sanji isn’t there also countering the attack with his own DJ attack? Or does that not suit your needs?
> ...


First thing is Big Mom power output wasn't different when she attacked Marco or Reiju. Second, Marco faced Big Mom homie Prometheus directly from the front similar with Luffy and Sanji faced Big Mom homie Zeus from the front. So in both situation there were two forces from the opposite direction, Big Mom vs Marco and Big Mom vs Luffy and Sanji. So both situations are similar when Luffy and Sanji faced Big Mom attack from the front similar to Marco.

Comparison with Daz Bone is an awful comparison.
- Daz Bone was blocking while Luffy and Sanji weren't blocking. Both Luffy and Sanji faced Big Mom attack directly and tried to overpower it with their own signature attack Elephant Gun and DJ.
- Mihawk wasn't serious in MF.
- Mihawk used long rage attack when Daz Bone blocked his attack Mihawk used long ranged attack. When Mihawk took Daz Bone down, Mihawk used close range attack which had higher cutting power.

Now for Luffy and Sanji vs Katakuri.
In Mirror World, Katakuri without going all out easily overpowered Luffy Elephant Gun, the same attack Luffy used on Big Mom. It was a neg diff clash seeing how quick Katakuri fist pushed Luffy to the top of Mirror World. The question is how much power output would Sanji add if it were Katakuri vs Luffy Elehnat Gun+Sanji DJ instead of Katakuri vs Luffy Elephant Gun? Sanji DJ is not thta strong. Sanji needs multiple DJ to match Luffy single Elephant Gun so the addition of Sanji to Luffy for clashing against Katakuri would not fill the gap from restrained Katakuri neg diffing Luffy Elephant Gun into restrained Katakuri gets pushed back by both Luffy Elephant Gun and Sanji DJ. The best the duo can do is pushing Katakuri to mid diff to high diff. Even if both of them can overpower katakuri which I doubt, Katakuri only need to go serious and it's back to Katakuri overpowers the duo, Luffy Elehant Gun+Sanji DJ.

To make thing easier to understand:

Scenario one: Restrained Katakuri neg diffed Luffy Elephant Gun in their clash. Adding Sanji DJ would make it Katakuri mid diff, high diff or extreme diff Luffy Elephant Gun+Sanji DJ.It's simple because Sanji DJ Sanji uses is single DJ and Sanji needs multiple DJ to match Luffy single Elephant Gun.
Scenario two: The duo by surprise overpower Katakuri. Katakuri only needs to get serious and it's back to Katakuri overpowers Luffy and Sanji again. Katakuri AP>>Marco AP is given lol.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Nov 19, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Nothing is disproven. Doesn't matter who did Big Mom attack she had no reason to hold back. Marco stopped Big Mom attack the same way Luffy and Sanji stopped Big Mom attack. Luffy used Elephant Gun btw.
> 
> This is Luffy Elephant Gun vs Big Mom homie Zeus the same way Marco vs Big Mom homie Prometheus.
> 
> ...


luffy intercepted it. also big mom has never implied luffy can kill her. She would now if she saw current luffy's power.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 19, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Clashing with BM homie is nothing impressive. Luffy did too with his Elephant Gun and look what Katakuri did to Luffy Elephant Gun, Katakuri completely overpowered it with his own version without going all out.


You're implying that Big Mom was unserious vs. Marco as she was vs. Luffy and Sanji. I'm gonna need you to prove that......


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 19, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Well Oda says they're equal, so I'm going with that
> 
> Roger's crew was a match for WB's crew. They weren't some kind of gods walking on earth. If he was still alive, his crew would be old, and they would be as powerful as the other yonkous, just like WB


When?

I don't really care about the flashback skirmish, it just proves that Oda doesn't think about the specifics as much as the fans want. The Roger pirates in their prime were much better than the Whitebeard pirates with a lot of members in their teen years, even with Oden on their side, who got punked by Roger.

No. If Roger was in HIS PRIME, and didn't *solve the mystery *One Piece, he would still be a Yonko today. There is no ceiling to be an Emperor. This goes for the Rocks, Shiki's crew, etc. We know for a fact that Whitebeard was definitively stronger than the other Yonko in his prime which consists of most of his reign as Emperor, so it's not even possible that they were equal overall.


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## Beast (Nov 19, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> It's what someone like Sanji uses currently guess that makes him fodder too


You mean Zoro  

Sanji already has good enough KH to dodge a FS attack.


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## TheWiggian (Nov 19, 2020)

Beast said:


> You mean Zoro
> 
> Sanji already has good enough KH to dodge a FS attack.



It's basic so far.


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## Beast (Nov 19, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> It's basic so far.


There’s a difference in the level of haki, even when say both characters are using KH or BH.


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## TheWiggian (Nov 19, 2020)

Beast said:


> There’s a difference in the level of haki, even when say both characters are using KH or BH.



I put them in 2 different bags, basic covers most applications in observation while advanced is FS, gigantic range and I'd throw Fuji's Haki sight in there.

And of course I believe that Sanji is superior at observation in terms of prediction and "hearing the tears of women" to someone like Zoro who didn't show shit so far. Doesn't make his advanced CoO advanced, just better.


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## OG sama (Nov 20, 2020)

Marco fanatics still spouting this nonsense about BM implying he can kill her as if that shit ain’t already been debunked a million times by me is hilarious.

Wanting to kill someone and being able to are two completely different things, BM respects Marco enough for him to try something like this, it absolutely does not mean he’s capable.

Now watch this get ignored because Marco is just so unstoppable, muh Chickenbro has da best defenze and offenzee according to the Marco fanbase.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 20, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Marco fanatics still spouting this nonsense about BM implying he can kill her as if that shit ain’t already been debunked a million times by me is hilarious.
> 
> *Wanting to kill someone and being able to are two completely different things, BM respects Marco enough for him to try something like this, it absolutely does not mean he’s capable.*
> 
> Now watch this get ignored because Marco is just so unstoppable, muh Chickenbro has da best defenze and offenzee according to the Marco fanbase.


I mean, as far as the quote is concerned, the fact that Big Mom would even contemplate Marco trying to kill her says enough in itself, regardless of whether he can or not, which no one here is saying he can.

Kinda killed yourself with this one.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## OG sama (Nov 20, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> I mean, as far as the quote is concerned, the fact that Big Mom would even contemplate Marco trying to kill her says enough in itself, regardless of whether he can or not, which no one here is saying he can.
> 
> Kinda killed yourself with this one.



She respects him enough to try, that has nothing to do with strength.

And if he can’t and no one believes it, then why are people bringing it up then?

Kinda killed yourself with this one.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 20, 2020)

OG sama said:


> She respects him enough to try, that has nothing to do with strength.
> 
> And if he can’t and no one believes it, then why are people bringing it up then?
> 
> Kinda killed yourself with this one.


It doesn't matter if he can kill her, he just has to be close enough that the thought crosses her mind, which you keep saying it is.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## B Rabbit (Nov 20, 2020)

Its really just his regeneration.


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## xmysticgohanx (Nov 20, 2020)

B Rabbit said:


> Its really just his regeneration.


nah, marco beats katakuri even without that

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Zero (Nov 20, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> nah, marco beats katakuri even without that


How do you come up with that?

Marco’s regeneration is what makes him who he is, removing it against a character that is already in the same tier as him is an instant loss.


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## OG sama (Nov 20, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> It doesn't matter if he can kill her, he just has to be close enough that the thought crosses her mind, which you keep saying it is.


But he can’t and y’all don’t believe it either so her statement means nothing... she would probably tell King or Jinbei the same thing.

The length you guys will go to wank this dude


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## xmysticgohanx (Nov 20, 2020)

Zero said:


> How do you come up with that?
> 
> Marco’s regeneration is what makes him who he is, removing it against a character that is already in the same tier as him is an instant loss.


Katakuri isn’t in the same tier. His stats are far lower

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Corax (Nov 20, 2020)

Hard to say anything about Kata's stats. On one hand he was ragdolled by G4 attack and had to brace himself,and BM easily no selled the same attack, while Marco evenly clashed with BM head on. On the other hand giant mochi hand evenly clashed with G4. So based on this feat his physicals should be below Marcon unless we count his giant mochi hands (but this is DF,not his body stats).


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 20, 2020)

OG sama said:


> But he can’t and y’all don’t believe it either so her statement means nothing... she would probably tell King or Jinbei the same thing.
> 
> The length you guys will go to wank this dude


You're the one that brought it up, not me. You keep saying she respects Marco enough to think he could try and kill her, so that means something right? If not that, then the part where she says she doesn't have the weapons to spare on him right now, what does that mean? Pretty sure Jimbei wouldn't get this level of acknowledgement, and if King can or not is undecided so stop bringing characters we know nothing about it into it to downplay Marco.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 20, 2020)

Corax said:


> Hard to say anything about Kata's stats. On one hand he was ragdolled by G4 attack and had to brace himself,and BM easily no selled the same attack, while Marco evenly clashed with BM head on. On the other hand giant mochi hand evenly clashed with G4. So based on this feat his physicals should be below Marcon unless we count his giant mochi hands (but this is DF,not his body stats).


How do you get that? Surely if Big Mom treated G4 so utterly casually, then hers and Marco's power would be clearly above it. Katakuri is G4 level. Kaido, Big Mom and Marco are well above that, so to keep harping on about how Marco is on Katakuri's level without their fruits is, if not completely false, incredibly unsupported and unarguable at the moment.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## OG sama (Nov 20, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> You're the one that brought it up, not me. You keep saying she respects Marco enough to think he could try and kill her, so that means something right? If not that, then the part where she says she doesn't have the weapons to spare on him right now, what does that mean? Pretty sure Jimbei wouldn't get this level of acknowledgement, and if King can or not is undecided so stop bringing characters we know nothing about it into it to downplay Marco.



She doesn’t think anything bruh!!! She’s just telling him if HE WANTS TO TRY to kill her he’s going to have to do that another time.

She doesn’t want to waste her time killing him cause he heals and that shit takes time. Like... how is that hard to comprehend?

Not surprised I keep having to repeat myself, if you are a Marco fan and you want to believe he’s some Admiral tier God then of course you aren’t going to listen to what I got to say but be completely in denial of the truth.


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## MO (Nov 20, 2020)

marco seems to be more impressive because he fought stronger oponents(momentarily). I believe Katakuri could replicate most if not all of marco's feats in MF. He just hasn't been giving the opportunity to fight the same people marco has.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OG sama (Nov 20, 2020)

MO said:


> marco seems to be more impressive because he fought stronger oponents(momentarily). I believe Katakuri could replicate most if not all of marco's feats in MF. He just hasn't been giving the opportunity to fight the same people marco has.



Marco fans fail to recognize these are small sample size skirmishes.

I guess the idea is that Oda is putting him of all people in these positions so it has to mean something, but that’s most likely the case because his fruit is perfect for stalling people like Top Tiers. His fruit allows him to last against guys above his level, nobody else can heal instantly like Marco can.

Its an abilities thing for Oda, he isn’t obsessed with power levels he does what is convenient most of the time. Which is why we get so many clashes between characters with opposite styles like Ace vs Aokiji  Ace vs Jinbei. Crackers biscuits being weak to rain, Enels lightning having no effect on Luffy. Marcos flames countering Prometheus. Brooks soul powers countering BMs homies, like the list goes on.

This is stuff Oda has been doing since the beginning.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 20, 2020)

OG sama said:


> She doesn’t think anything bruh!!! She’s just telling him if HE WANTS TO TRY to kill her he’s going to have to do that another time.
> 
> She doesn’t want to waste her time killing him cause he heals and that shit takes time. Like... how is that hard to comprehend?
> 
> Not surprised I keep having to repeat myself, if you are a Marco fan and you want to believe he’s some Admiral tier God then of course you aren’t going to listen to what I got to say but be completely in denial of the truth.


You're just backtrcaking. Earlier you said she respects him and that's why she said he could try and kill her, now you're saying it was more like a jest.



OG sama said:


> Marco fans fail to recognize these are small sample size skirmishes.
> 
> I guess the idea is that Oda is putting him of all people in these positions so it has to mean something, but that’s most likely the case because his fruit is perfect for stalling people like Top Tiers. His fruit allows him to last against guys above his level, nobody else can heal instantly like Marco can.
> 
> ...


Do you seriously think someone like Kizaru is physically miles ahead of Marco as he is Katakuri? 

Apparently you're a fanboy for saying Marco is as strong as Kizaru because it totally wasn't presented that way. Hmm, maybe I'm missing something still.


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## OG sama (Nov 20, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> You're just backtrcaking. Earlier you said she respects him and that's why she said he could try and kill her, now you're saying it was more like a jest.
> 
> 
> Do you seriously think someone like Kizaru is physically miles ahead of Marco as he is Katakuri?
> ...


I’m saying the exact same fucking things I have been telling you the entire damn time.  She respects him and it ain’t got to do with strength, he’s a veteran pirate and one that served under WB. It doesn’t mean he can kill her, stop these BS ass excuses acting like you don’t understand what I’m talking. You KNOW exactly wtf I’m talking about.

What’s this got to do with anything I said? I’m genuinely confused by this... how does this refute anything I said about abilities f characters mattering?


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 20, 2020)

OG sama said:


> I’m saying the exact same fucking things I have been telling you the entire damn time.  She respects him and it ain’t got to do with strength, he’s a veteran pirate and one that served under WB. It doesn’t mean he can kill her, stop these BS ass excuses acting like you don’t understand what I’m talking. You KNOW exactly wtf I’m talking about.
> 
> What’s this got to do with anything I said? I’m genuinely confused by this... how does this refute anything I said about abilities f characters mattering?


"Wanting to kill someone and being able to are two completely different things, *BM respects Marco enough for him to try something like this*, it absolutely does not mean he’s capable."



Just humor me.


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## OG sama (Nov 20, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> "Wanting to kill someone and being able to are two completely different things, *BM respects Marco enough for him to try something like this*, it absolutely does not mean he’s capable."
> 
> 
> 
> Just humor me.


It’s crazy how I have to keep repeating the same things to you, he can’t do it. She’s showing him respect as a veteran pirate under the WSM.

If you don’t believe he can do it yourself then what the fuck are you trying to prove to me??? If you don’t believe it, then you are proving everything that I have been telling you right.


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## Beast (Nov 20, 2020)

OG sama said:


> It’s crazy how I have to keep repeating the same things to you, he can’t do it. She’s showing him respect as a *veteran pirate under the WSM.*
> 
> If you don’t believe he can do it yourself then what the fuck are you trying to prove to me??? If you don’t believe it, then you are proving everything that I have been telling you right.


She would say this about all veteran pirateS under the WSM?

it’s laughable that you just keep trying to make things up in order to undermine Marco at all costs lmao. It’s pathetic.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 20, 2020)

OG sama said:


> It’s crazy how I have to keep repeating the same things to you, he can’t do it. She’s showing him respect as a veteran pirate under the WSM.
> 
> If you don’t believe he can do it yourself then what the fuck are you trying to prove to me??? If you don’t believe it, then you are proving everything that I have been telling you right.


I get what you _want_ to say, but the fact is that you keep changing what you _are_ saying.

First you said that Big Mom respects Marco enough that she thinks he is actively trying to kill her, beat her or whatever. Now you are saying she respects him as a pirate, and not as combatant.

It's what you said first that I agree with; she is acknowledging him as someone who is going out of his way to stop/beat/kill her. The key point being that she herself acknowledges that fact, which looks very good for Marco. Nothing about Big Mom stating that Marco is actively trying to kill her has anything to do with the respect she has for him as a pirate, it has to do with the respect she has for him as a combatant.

Look, the wording on it's own isn't enough to prove anything. I think the closest comparison you can make to this is how Fujitora taunted Sabo during their fight, but I think the difference is in Big Mom and Fujitora's character. Fujitora is someone who underpins his strength a lot, whereas Big Mom is the opposite.

The reason I'm arguing this at all is because I think that the two quotes; Big Mom saying Marco is trying to kill her, and Big Mom saying she doesn't have the weapons to spare on him now, paired together, paint a good picture of how Oda was intending on portrayaing their confrontation.


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## OG sama (Nov 20, 2020)

Beast said:


> She would say this about all veteran pirateS under the WSM?
> 
> it’s laughable that you just keep trying to make things up in order to undermine Marco at all costs lmao. It’s pathetic.


Wtf are you trying to prove to me??? Marco can be just as strong as Katakuri and be greatly respected around the world.

Im getting so sick of this victim shit you Marco fans are trying to use. Just because YOU think Marco is some God doesn’t mean everyone has to think he is, like please get tf away from me with this sorry ass shit. Ain’t nobody hating off Marco by saying he’s not Admiral level.

YOU want him to be a Top Tier, this is why you are arguing this useless ass shit with me.


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## OG sama (Nov 20, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> I get what you _want_ to say, but the fact is that you keep changing what you _are_ saying.
> 
> First you said that Big Mom respects Marco enough that she thinks he is actively trying to kill her, beat her or whatever. Now you are saying she respects him as a pirate, and not as combatant.
> 
> ...



So what is Marco to you then? How strong is Marco to you?


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 20, 2020)

OG sama said:


> So what is Marco to you then? How strong is Marco to you?


Kizaru, Fujitora, those people right below the absoloute strongest characters currently alive. Pre-ts Rayleigh with all his deficiences goes here too, most likely Greenbull, Beckman, etc. who we know nothing about but can give a good estimate.

People below that would be like Vista, maybe Lucky Roo, situationally Yasopp (maybe). These people would get Don Krieg'd by Shanks, Big Mom, Kaido etc. Mid difficulty.

Below that would be the absoloute bottom feeder class of top tier, but I can't give a name to anyone in particular. Katakuri with his variety of skills might nudge his way in, depending on how Oda treats FS later on. Sabo seems a good fit, and Queen/King all bets are off.


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## OG sama (Nov 20, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Kizaru, Fujitora, those people right below the absoloute strongest characters currently alive. Pre-ts Rayleigh with all his deficiences goes here too, most likely Greenbull, Beckman, etc. who we know nothing about but can give a good estimate.
> 
> People below that would be like Vista, maybe Lucky Roo, situationally Yasopp (maybe). These people would get Don Krieg'd by Shanks, Big Mom, Kaido etc. Mid difficulty.
> 
> Below that would be the absoloute bottom feeder class of top tier, but I can't give a name to anyone in particular. Katakuri with his variety of skills might nudge his way in, depending on how Oda treats FS later on. Sabo seems a good fit, and Queen/King all bets are off.


I personally think that all these Admirals are close together with Akainu being noticeably above but not by a huge margin.

Guys like Marco, King, and Katakuri are the same level.

And guys like Old Ray and Ben Beckman are low Top Tier.

But Oda doesn’t have a real power level system in place so no telling what is accurate and what not.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Beast (Nov 20, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Wtf are you trying to prove to me??? Marco can be just as strong as Katakuri and be greatly respected around the world.
> 
> Im getting so sick of this victim shit you Marco fans are trying to use. Just because YOU think Marco is some God doesn’t mean everyone has to think he is, like please get tf away from me with this sorry ass shit. Ain’t nobody hating off Marco by saying he’s not Admiral level.
> 
> YOU want him to be a Top Tier, this is why you are arguing this useless ass shit with me.


Yeah, that’s your fanfic matey. Kata hasnt had the luxury of Marcos portrayal, neither have any other WBP... yet, you tried to say they would be allowed the same treatment, that’s nothing short of fanfic.

no one is acting like a victim, I’m only showcasing your pathetic downplay of Marco. You’ve been crying for the past week and half, not once did I call Marco a god, neither do I think he is a Top tier but like you would know the difference between those salty tears.

no, no, you were just wrong, I already bolded what you said and it holds no ground other then in the fanfic in your head.

I’m never to assume what type of person anyone here is but dude... you are clearly better then crying out that everyone and their mothers that corrects you about a Marco... is some how a Marco fan and is wanking to be top tier, get your head out of all that shit you’re in and breath.

Marco is a powerful pirate, one powerful enough to earn the respect of admirals and BM herself Bar Ben Beckman, no other commander King/ Kat/ Queen/ Jozu/ Shiryu/ lucky Roo/ Yassop/ Vista/ Smoothie or Luffy for that matter have been showcased in the same light as Marco, so no they don’t all randomly get the head nod at being able to perform in the same manner as Marco under the same circumstances, we don’t give hype/ feats for one person to everyone, they have to earn it or achieve something in different but similar enough fashion. Take king for Example, he’s got similar portrayal to Marco but he doesn’t have feats of Marco, We could say that had BM being in rush and king was in front of her trying to block her, I’m sure she would fly around him and say something similar to what she said to Marco  HOWEVER, I would not be able to give a nod for Kings being able to clash with BM in the same fashion because he simply just doesn’t have the feats.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 20, 2020)

OG sama said:


> I personally think that all these Admirals are close together with Akainu being noticeably above but not by a huge margin.
> 
> Guys like Marco, King, and Katakuri are the same level.
> 
> ...


I think the problem with this is that it's very broad. If Marco _is_ weaker than Kizaru we'd want to gauge it in how much power they can lay out or maybe the difficulty of a fight between the two of them.

Extreme diff is near equality, think Aokiji vs Akainu. High shows superiority but not by a vast amount, think Zoro/Sanji vs Kaku/Jyabura. With mid there is very clearly a large gap, but whoever is stronger needs to put in effort to win, think Luffy vs Don Krieg. Etc.

From where I'm sitting, tBig Mom/Akainu and the like cannot mid diff Marco, regardless of his ability, it's just not portrayed that way to me. So that's how I view him. I put Kizaru, Fujitora and Greenbull here because there should be a difference between the Admirals if only slight, like the one between Sengoku and Garp.I also think a fight between Kizaru and Marco would be a toss up and neither having any serious advantage over the other. Beckman can probably push Shanks past mid etc.

Your list would seem to imply that Marco can only push someone like Kizaru to low-mid, like how say a fight between Katakuri and his captain would go. The imaginary gap being filled with characters like Ben Beckman who have naught but done anything showcasing he is strong at all.


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## OG sama (Nov 21, 2020)

Beast said:


> Yeah, that’s your fanfic matey. Kata hasnt had the luxury of Marcos portrayal, neither have any other WBP... yet, you tried to say they would be allowed the same treatment, that’s nothing short of fanfic.
> 
> no one is acting like a victim, I’m only showcasing your pathetic downplay of Marco. You’ve been crying for the past week and half, not once did I call Marco a god, neither do I think he is a Top tier but like you would know the difference between those salty tears.
> 
> ...


Fair enough.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Beast (Nov 21, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Fair enough.


Mission accomplished, Broke the OG wall, heading back to camp. :

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Jo Ndule (Nov 22, 2020)

Still nothing

Oda would never have katakuri or luffy be seen as a waste of time and choked easily 

G3>Marco in AP
Marco best feats are already done by APoo ,jinbei and Brook
Pathetic


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## Jo Ndule (Nov 22, 2020)

G4 rattled BM coated arm.
The same boundman that Katakuri trashed 

Marco matched and hurt a homie because of elementary advantage not because his AP is above G3 even

Marco coo and reaction speed sucks, he avn dodge BM lol

His CoA also sucks 

The chapter literally only hyped his flames for hurting Promotheus 
That wasn't even Prometheus at 30% full power 

Marco can never beat Kata. If he could, katakuri wouldn't be undefeated when BMP faced WBP many times, instead Marco was being rivaled by Pero


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## GucciBandana (Nov 22, 2020)

Nothing...
By rank, they are both commanders, Katakuri was specially mentioned as "strongest Sweet Commander", while Marco was a ship doctor, strongest WB Commander was Oden, on top of that, it was never confirmed that Marco is stronger than Ace or Jozu before he lost his arm.
By crew composition, we know that Shanks has the smallest crew, meanwhile maintaining highest crew member quality, and WB crew is the biggest, 50k strong, with the highest number of commanders, 16, does not suggest WB commanders being stronger individually.

By feats, stalling a top tier temporarily is literally the cheapest thing for a high tier, we've seen characters like Kinnemon or Raizo stopping named attack from a Yonko, while being much much weaker. So nothing puts Marco ahead of Katakuri, they are roughly the same.


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## Shunsuiju (Nov 22, 2020)

I mean, if you found a way to remove your brain, you could make an argument.


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## Ruse (Nov 22, 2020)

He has decent showing  against multiple top tiers not saying it’s the be all end all but you can’t blame people for thinking Marco is stronger.


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## killfox (Nov 24, 2020)

Just throwing this out there:

Marco Clashed directly with BM physically and had a slight advantage (DF counter)

Luffy and Sanji attacked Big mom from the side while she was in process of attacking someone else.

2 people attacking Mike Tyson off guard while he’s in mid attack against someone else and knocking away his fist is cool and all

but it’s not the same as clashing equally with Mike Tyson at all.
Marcos feat is superior to Luffy and Sanjis for this reason. It’s very simpe

Reactions: Agree 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 2, 2020)

Big Mom vs Luffy is similar to Big Mom vs Luffy and Sanji. Marco AP=Elephant Gun+DJ

Both Luffy and Sanji attacked Big Mom from the front like what Big Mom did to Marco. Unless Big Mom is blind, she should be able to see both Luffy and Sanji who were completely in front of her. Her power output shouldn't change whether she knew Luffy and Sanji were in front of her trying to attack her with Elephant Gun and DJ.

Restrained Katakuri>Elephant Gun+DJ
Restrained Katakuri neg diffs Luffy Elephant Gun. DJ Sanji might help Luffy to give higher damage output against restrained Katakuri but it won't be enough to close the gap from neg diffed by restrained Kata to clashing equally with restrained Kata. With DJ Sanji help they might be able to push Kata from being neg diffed by him into mid diffed by him. Even if by miracle they can overpower restrained Kata, Kata only needs to get serious and it's back to Kata neg diffs both Luffy and Sanji.

Nothing impressive from Marco AP wise.


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## Jo Ndule (Dec 2, 2020)

Jinbei > kata/Luffy 
Coz he matched akainu, sent linlin back,  hurt prometheus,  
And didn't get choked too


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## LadyVados (Dec 2, 2020)

Clashing equally with BM who Kata was fodder to


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## Beast (Dec 2, 2020)

Jo Ndule said:


> Jinbei > kata/Luffy
> Coz he matched akainu, sent linlin back,  hurt prometheus,
> And didn't get choked too


Hurting prom is now a stat.

Lmao


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 18, 2020)

Man, some of you guys can be so paranoid. It's like every other comment changes the paradigm of how you view the series. Marco is weaker than Kaido, what's the big deal? We already knew this.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Man, some of you guys can be so paranoid. It's like every other comment changes the paradigm of how you view the series. Marco is weaker than Kaido, what's the big deal? We already knew this.


Just to remind some posters who rate Marco above Kata. Marco is nothing special.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Just to remind some posters who rate Marco above Kata. Marco is nothing special.


Based on what?


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Based on what?


Marco only has good regen. Nothing impressive from other stats.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Marco only has good regen. Nothing impressive from other stats.


Prove it.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Prove it.


Kata without going all out neg diffed Elephant Gun. What Marco has shown to exceed that?


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Kata without going all out neg diffed Elephant Gun. What Marco has shown to exceed that?


He overpowered Kizaru hahahaha


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> He overpowered Kizaru hahahaha


lol Kizaru just blocked in midair lol.Didn't even attack Mrco lmao. Didn't see Kizaru got bruised where as Marco was bruised when he got cuffed by vice admirals.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> lol Kizaru just blocked in midair lol.Didn't even attack Mrco lmao. Didn't see Kizaru got bruised where as Marco was bruised when he got cuffed by vice admirals.


Wrong. Marco was also off balance and they were wrestling each other for enough time that they could have a witty back and forth, which ended with Marco getting the better of him.


ahahah


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Wrong. Marco was also off balance and they were wrestling each other for enough time that they could have a witty back and forth, which ended with Marco getting the better of him.
> 
> 
> ahahah


Kizaru blocked with his arm lol and his main forte is his kick. You think Kizaru arm is Elephant Gun level lol? Nah you're wrong. Show me the damage Kizaru got from Marco lol. Whereas when vice admiral cuffed him with seastone we saw bruises on Mrco. Maybe from Kizaru attack or fodders attack. Kizaru main forte is his kick not his arm.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> You think Kizaru arm is Elephant Gun level lol?


More likely above Kong Gun

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> More likely above Kong Gun


So Kizaru casual bitchslap using his arm without using his df is above Kong Gun?


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> So Kizaru casual bitchslap using his arm is above Kong Gun?


Yes, like BM casually lifting her arm was above Kong Gun


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Kizaru blocked with his arm lol and his main forte is his kick.






Dragon D Xebec said:


> You think Kizaru arm is Elephant Gun level lol? Nah you're wrong.


  

I'm done...



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Show me the damage Kizaru got from Marco lol. Whereas when vice admiral cuffed him with seastone we saw bruises on Mrco. Maybe from Kizaru attack or fodders attack. Kizaru main forte is his kick not his arm.


No Vice-Admiral injured Marco.

If I say it five more times, will you comprehend?


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Yes, like BM casually lifting her arm was above Kong Gun


So Kizaru without using his df, when he punches someone the ap is above Kong Gun  What manga did I read?


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> I'm done...
> 
> 
> No Vice-Admiral injured Marco.
> ...


He got bruises when he got cuffed by sea stone. Reread MF arc again.


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> So Kizaru without using his df, when he punches someone the ap is above Kong Gun  What manga did I read?


The one where Admirals are = Yonko.

Cope more.


Dragon D Xebec said:


> He got bruises when he got cuffed by sea stone. Reread MF arc again.


Nah you


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> So Kizaru without using his df, when he punches someone the ap is above Kong Gun  What manga did I read?


A manga where Akainu punching WB's bizento could stop him? You think Kong Gun is above a WB Gura powered attack? A Manga where Shanks casually stopped Akainu's punch with his one handed sword?

If you actually think Admirals/Yonko can't casually cause the same damage as Kong Gun I don't know what to tell you


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> A manga where Akainu punching WB's bizento could stop him? You think Kong Gun is above a WB Gura powered attack? A Manga where Shanks casually stopped Akainu's punch with his one handed sword?
> 
> If you actually think Admirals/Yonko can't casually cause the same damage as Kong Gun I don't know what to tell you


But Jimbei also stopped Akainu dude


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> The one where Admirals are = Yonko.
> 
> Cope more.


so where is the panel kizaru casual punch without df is above Kong Gun?



Shunsuiju said:


> Nah you



Look at middle panel under Marco's lip. He got damage. Either from Kizaru or fodders but Kizaru didn't get any damage. If his AP is stronger than Elephant Gun surely Kizaru will take damage.



Strobacaxi said:


> A manga where Akainu punching WB's bizento could stop him? You think Kong Gun is above a WB Gura powered attack? A Manga where Shanks casually stopped Akainu's punch with his one handed sword?
> 
> If you actually think Admirals/Yonko can't casually cause the same damage as Kong Gun I don't know what to tell you


Akainu used his df when he tore a hole of WB face. Did Kizaru use his df when he blocked Marco kick? Is Kizaru casual punch without his df is stronger than Kong Gun lol.

I am talking Kizaru when he blocked Marco's kick. Admiral with df of course has AP stronger than Kong Gun but Kizatu only used his arm to block Marco's kick. Didn't use his df so how come Kizaru casual bitchslap without df is above Kong Gun? Akainu also has the most deadly df that can penetrate ant defend. Different from other df.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Akainu used his df when he tore a hole of WB face. Did Kizaru use his df when he blocked Marco kick? Is Kizaru casual punch without his df is stronger than Kong Gun lol.


I didn't even mention Meito where did that come from lol
Did Shanks get a new fruit when he stopped Akainu? Did Jimbe? Did BM use her fruit to stop G4 attacks? Did Kaido?


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Look at middle panel under Marco's lip. He got damage. Either from Kizaru or fodders but Kizaru didn't get any damage. *If his AP is stronger than Elephant Gun surely Kizaru will take damage.*


I don't see it

He got launched back. It wasn't a hit to the head or anything.


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> I didn't even mention Meito where did that come from lol
> Did Shanks get a new fruit when he stopped Akainu? *Did Jimbe?* Did BM use her fruit to stop G4 attacks? Did Kaido?


You are on the edge


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> I didn't even mention Meito where did that come from lol
> Did Shanks get a new fruit when he stopped Akainu? Did Jimbe? Did BM use her fruit to stop G4 attacks? Did Kaido?


Yet Fuji even using his df got bruised from Luffy Elephant Gun. Kizaru is already way faster than BM and Kaido and now you're saying his casual punch without df is above Kong Gun lol.



Shunsuiju said:


> I don't see it
> 
> He got launched back. It wasn't a hit to the head or anything.


Didn't see what? Damage Kizaru took from Marco? It doesn't exist because Marco's ap is nowhere near Elephant Gun.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Yet Fuji even using his df got bruised from Luffy Elephant Gun. Kizaru is already way faster than BM and Kaido and now you're saying his casual punch without df is above Kong Gun lol.


Yet, below is the first time Fuji used his DF against Luffy (and last) and he has no bruise at all.
You continue to change your argument and ignoring mine. That won't help you be right.

I keep waiting. Akainu's punch was stopped by Shanks. BM casually stopped G4. G4 was 100% useless against Kaido. Did any of them use their fruits? Akainu stopped Whitebeard's Bizento attack without his DF. His foot turned to Lava to avoid damage from being hit by the WSM's attack.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Yet, below is the first time Fuji used his DF against Luffy (and last) and he has no bruise at all.
> You continue to change your argument and ignoring mine. That won't help you be right.
> 
> I keep waiting. Akainu's punch was stopped by Shanks. BM casually stopped G4. G4 was 100% useless against Kaido. Did any of them use their fruits? Akainu stopped Whitebeard's Bizento attack without his DF. His foot turned to Lava to avoid damage from being hit by the WSM's attack.


lol you even didn't answer my question. Kizaru is already faster than BM and Kaido and you're saying his casual punch without df is above Kong Gun? What kind of manga show that? where is the panel lol. Yet he got bruises here.



Shanks used advanced CoA. From databook it is stated that Akainu df can penetrate any defense.
BM used CoA to block Gear Four. She is born physical monster unlike Kizaru lol.
Similarly with Kaido is known as the WSC. His physical strengtn is off the chart.

SO how is Kizaru casual punch without his df is above Kong Gun? You're saying Kizaru is not only faster than BM or Kaido but his AP is also stronger lol?


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> lol you even didn't answer my question. Kizaru is already faster than BM and Kaido and you're saying his casual punch without df is above Kong Gun?


Wtf is this question? I didn't answer it because it's so dumb. BM is slower than Luffy too so what?



Dragon D Xebec said:


> where is the panel lol. Yet he got bruises here.


If the bruises disappear the next panel, it's not an actual bruise.



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Shanks used advanced CoA.


Prove it



Dragon D Xebec said:


> BM used CoA to block Gear Four. She is born physical monster unlike Kizaru lol.


Casually, yes. So? 



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Similarly with Kaido is known as the WSC. His physical strengtn is off the chart.


Again, did he use his fruit? 



Dragon D Xebec said:


> SO how is Kizaru casual punch without his df is above Kong Gun? You're saying Kizaru is not only faster than BM or Kaido but his AP is also stronger lol?


Did you just...... Did you really just... Are you trying to say Kong Gun is stronger than BM or Kaido?

OK I'm out


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Wtf is this question? I didn't answer it because it's so dumb. BM is slower than Luffy too so what?


So not only is Kizaru faster than Big Mom but Kizaru is also as strong as Big Mom physically? So Big Mom is Pirtae King level?



Strobacaxi said:


> If the bruises disappear the next panel, it's not an actual bruise.


Irrelevant. I proved that Kizaru arm without his df is not Kong Gun level because Fujitora got pushef=d back from Luffy Elephant Gun who is way weaker than Kong Gun.



Strobacaxi said:


> Prove it


Just read databook. Akainu df can penetrate any defense. Logical explanation is Shanks blocked it with advanced CoA.



Strobacaxi said:


> Casually, yes. So?


So where is the panel Kizaru arm without enhanced by his df is stronger than Kong Gun? I already showed Fujitora got pushed back by Elephant Gun who is way weaker than Kong Gun.



Strobacaxi said:


> Again, did he use his fruit?


And Fujitora got pushed back by Elephant Gun. Kaido ap>>>>admiral including Fujitora, Kizaru.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> So not only is Kizaru faster than Big Mom but Kizaru is also as strong as Big Mom physically? So Big Mom is Pirtae King level?


Dude. Dude. Dude

*KONG GUN IS NOT AS STRONG AS BM*



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Irrelevant. I proved that Kizaru arm without his df is not Kong Gun level because Fujitora got pushef=d back from Luffy Elephant Gun who is way weaker than Kong Gun.


Lol, no, you didn't. 
First you tried to say Fuji used his DF and still got bruised. Lie
Then you said he was bruised. Now that's irrelevant when it's obvious he didn't.
you still have to prove that Fuji = Kizaru, and also that Fuji couldn't easily block that attack if he wanted. BEcause we all now Fuji was holding back severely.



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Just read databook. Akainu df can penetrate any defense. Logical explanation is Shanks blocked it with advanced CoA.


I prefer reading the manga. Akainu's attacks didn't penetrate many defenses in the manga. So that's just another lie.



Dragon D Xebec said:


> So where is the panel Kizaru arm without enhanced by his df is stronger than Kong Gun? I already showed Fujitora got pushed back by Elephant Gun who is way weaker than Kong Gun.


Where is the panel where Kizaru's arm isn't stronger than Kong Gun? 
You're actually trying to claim that Fuji couldn't stop a G3 move without using his DF? The attacks that were 100% useless against YCs? lol
Fuji was holding back and allowing Luffy to attack him.



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Kaido ap>>>>admiral including Fujitora, Kizaru.


Prove it


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

BTW @Dragon D Xebec go ahead, tell me G2 is also stronger than an Admiral, it was pushing Fuji back


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Dude. Dude. Dude
> 
> *KONG GUN IS NOT AS STRONG AS BM*


Big Mom also overpowered Kong Gun lol. So if Kizaru is already faster than BM yet can overpower Kong Gun like BM did then Kizaru is Pirate King level.



Strobacaxi said:


> Lol, no, you didn't.
> First you tried to say Fuji used his DF and still got bruised. Lie
> Then you said he was bruised. Now that's irrelevant when it's obvious he didn't.
> you still have to prove that Fuji = Kizaru, and also that Fuji couldn't easily block that attack if he wanted. BEcause we all now Fuji was holding back severely.


lol just because Fuji did bad against Luffy that means Kizaru>Fuji? Gap between admirals are not that big. Akainu and Aokiji fought for ten days. 
Marco blocked Kizaru and I asked if Kizaru arm is stronger than Elephant Gun. You said stronger than Kong Gun.
I showed Fujitora blocked Elephant Gun who is way weaker than Kong Gun and got pushed back. So your argument is wrong.



Strobacaxi said:


> I prefer reading the manga. Akainu's attacks didn't penetrate many defenses in the manga. So that's just another lie.


I prefer to read databook created by Oda and from databook it is said it can enetrated any defense. If someone can blocm it then that person has advanced CoA simple.



Strobacaxi said:


> Where is the panel where Kizaru's arm isn't stronger than Kong Gun?
> You're actually trying to claim that Fuji couldn't stop a G3 move without using his DF? The attacks that were 100% useless against YCs? lol
> Fuji was holding back and allowing Luffy to attack him.


Your argument falls apart when you said Kizaru arm without his df which blocked Marco is stronger than Kong Gun. Holding back doesn't reduce Fujitora strength to block Luffy attack.



Strobacaxi said:


> BTW @Dragon D Xebec go ahead, tell me G2 is also stronger than an Admiral, it was pushing Fuji back


Kizaru also held back against Marco back in MF. So you're saying held back Kizaru without his df has arm strength stronger than Kong Gun lol.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Kizaru also held back against Marco back in MF. So you're saying held back Kizaru without his df has arm strength stronger than Kong Gun lol.


No no no, don't change your argument again



Dragon D Xebec said:


> I showed Fujitora blocked Elephant Gun who is way weaker than Kong Gun and got pushed back. So your argument is wrong.


I showed you Fuji blocked G2 unnamed attacks and got pushed back. By your own logic, this proves without a doubt that G2 is stronger than Kizaru.

Please defend your own opinions.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> No no no, don't change your argument again
> 
> 
> I showed you Fuji blocked G2 unnamed attacks and got pushed back. By your own logic, this proves without a doubt that G2 is stronger than Kizaru.
> ...


Maybe Fujitora held back. Held back Fujitora got pushed back by Gear two and Gear three. I think Kizaru also held back back in MF. Maybe his arm strength when he blocked Marco kick is Gear two or Gear three level too when Kizaru held back.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Maybe Fujitora held back. Held back Fujitora got pushed back by Gear two and Gear three.


So you concede that showing Fuji being pushed back has no relevance at all? Because that's your whole argument up in smokes.

We know Fuji held back. We don't know if Kizaru held back in MF, but he had no reason to, and he was one of the 2 marine characters actually going for kill moves.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> So you concede that showing Fuji being pushed back has no relevance at all? Because that's your whole argument up in smokes.
> 
> We know Fuji held back. We don't know if Kizaru held back in MF, but he had no reason to, and he was one of the 2 marine characters actually going for kill moves.


He held back a lot. When Marco was about to be cuffed, Kizaru said to Marco that he took it easy to Marco. After TS Akainu also made whole BBP ran away and the same BBP beat remannts of WBP easily including Marco. Akainu is on the same ballpark as Kizaru so it shows how held back Kizaru was in MF.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> He held back a lot. When Marco was about to be cuffed, Kizaru said to Marco that he took it easy to Marco.


No, he didn't. Careless =/= Holding back





Dragon D Xebec said:


> After TS Akainu also made whole BBP ran away and the same BBP beat remannts of WBP easily including Marco. Akainu is on the same ballpark as Kizaru so it shows how held back Kizaru was in MF.


That was Pre TS, not Post TS. In other words, irrelevant. Also, just because they ran away doesn't mean they would've lost. The fact that they were fighting Sengoku and Garp points to a whole other direction
Also, nowhere is it stated that BB beat Marco "easily"

I don't know why you think lazers to the heart is holding back, but that is one of the most kill intended moves I've seen in this manga.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> No, he didn't. Careless =/= Holding back
> 
> *Spoiler*:


Kizaru was sarcastic. He also supernova was scary doesn't mean he was really scared of them.



Strobacaxi said:


> That was Pre TS, not Post TS. In other words, irrelevant. Also, just because they ran away doesn't mean they would've lost. The fact that they were fighting Sengoku and Garp points to a whole other direction
> Also, nowhere is it stated that BB beat Marco "easily"
> 
> I don't know why you think lazers to the heart is holding back, but that is one of the most kill intended moves I've seen in this manga.


You nitpick a lot to prove Marco=admiral. Fujitora held back even though there was no panel indicate such while Kizaru was serious what kind of argument is that.
Kizaru should be as strong as Akainu but you refuse to accept this because that will make kizaru held back a lot against Marco. BB said they were not ready for Akainu and dipped off.

Jinbei said WBP suffered humiliating defeat when he told WBP remnants vs BBP to Luffy in Fishman Island.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Kizaru was sarcastic. He also supernova was scary doesn't mean he was really scared of them.


You said he stated that he held back. That was a lie. Now what he actually stated was just sarcasm. Yet I'm the one who nitpicks huh?



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Fujitora held back even though there was no panel indicate such


So you missed the whole part about him not wanting to hurt the hand who fed him, him not wanting to kill the SHs, him betting on Luffy to beat DD?
Also, I'd say the part where he literally didn't fight back until his last move is enough indication that he was holding back



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Kizaru was serious what kind of argument is that.


What do you call aiming directly to your enemy's heart? If you go for the kill, you're serious. Simple.



Dragon D Xebec said:


> BB said they were not ready for Akainu and dipped off.


Still doesn't mean they'd lose. HE didn't go through all that effort for a crew to just lose a part of it to Akainu needlessly. Fact is, they fought Garp and Sengoku together. Wanna say Akainu is stronger than Garp and Sengoku combined?



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Jinbei said WBP suffered humiliating defeat when he told WBP remnants vs BBP to Luffy in Fishman Island.


Which doesn't mean it was easy at all. And it's also irrelevant, as that happened 1.5 years after MF and BB had likely mastered Gura by that point. So comparing that BB to the BB that fled from Akainu is irrelevant both by power level difference and by story wise there would be no point in BB risking anything to fight Akainu


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> You said he stated that he held back. That was a lie. Now what he actually stated was just sarcasm. Yet I'm the one who nitpicks huh?


Almost everyone held back in MF. Doflamingo didn't use awakening. Mihawk held back that Crocodile and Vista can stall him. Yeha you nitpick a lot.



Strobacaxi said:


> So you missed the whole part about him not wanting to hurt the hand who fed him, him not wanting to kill the SHs, him betting on Luffy to beat DD?
> Also, I'd say the part where he literally didn't fight back until his last move is enough indication that he was holding back


Fujitora got pushed back by Elephant Gun after Doflamingo was defeated so Fujitora had no reason to owe Luffy anymore. Fujitora even stated he wanted to capture Luffy and Law before setting bck in MF HQ.



Strobacaxi said:


> What do you call aiming directly to your enemy's heart? If you go for the kill, you're serious. Simple.


Yet he chose to break key for Ace cuff instead aiming to Luffy's heart when Luffy was about to free Ace with key that he got from Hancock.



Strobacaxi said:


> Still doesn't mean they'd lose. HE didn't go through all that effort for a crew to just lose a part of it to Akainu needlessly. Fact is, they fought Garp and Sengoku together. Wanna say Akainu is stronger than Garp and Sengoku combined?


BB was overconfident in MF. Not only Garp and Sengoku. Akainu was also there when BB claimed he was the strongest after WB died. During two years most likely BB learnt his lesson after learning gura gura no mi.



Strobacaxi said:


> Which doesn't mean it was easy at all. And it's also irrelevant, as that happened 1.5 years after MF and BB had likely mastered Gura by that point. So comparing that BB to the BB that fled from Akainu is irrelevant both by power level difference and by story wise there would be no point in BB risking anything to fight Akainu


It's relevant because BBP didn't suffer any casualty whereas WBP remnants lost a lot. Vista and Jozu were not seen at Wano only Marco and Izo. Fact is BB>Marco and the same BB with his crews ran away from Akainu who is as strong as Kizaru. Kizaru held back a lot in MF.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Almost everyone held back in MF. Doflamingo didn't use awakening. Mihawk held back that Crocodile and Vista can stall him. Yeha you nitpick a lot.


So you have no panel of Kizaru holding back, much on the contrary?



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Fujitora got pushed back by Elephant Gun after Doflamingo was defeated so Fujitora had no reason to owe Luffy anymore. Fujitora even stated he wanted to capture Luffy and Law before setting bck in MF HQ.


Fujitora delayed going after Luffy as much as possible. He very clearly didn't want to kill or capture him. Just like he said that he didn't want to fight Zoro. And he actually held back against Sabo, someone he had literally no reason to not caputre.
Also, if he really wanted to capture Law and Luffy, he would've attacked Luffy, not just take his attacks.



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Yet he chose to break key for Ace cuff instead aiming to Luffy's heart when Luffy was about to free Ace with key that he got from Hancock.


Yes, Luffy has plot armor, congratulations. Marco got shot in the heart, and so did WB. 



Dragon D Xebec said:


> BB was overconfident in MF. Not only Garp and Sengoku. Akainu was also there when BB claimed he was the strongest after WB died. During two years most likely BB learnt his lesson after learning gura gura no mi.


???
BB fought Garp and Sengoku. Again, is Akainu stronger than the two of them combined? Because he wasn't running from them.



Dragon D Xebec said:


> It's relevant because BBP didn't suffer any casualty whereas WBP remnants lost a lot.


Prove it



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Vista and Jozu were not seen at Wano only Marco and Izo.


Mihawk hasn't been seen at Wano either, is he dead too? Marco went to get Izo because he was from Wano.



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Fact is BB>Marco and the same BB with his crews ran away from Akainu who is as strong as Kizaru. Kizaru held back a lot in MF.


Noone said BB wasn't stronger than Marco.
Yeah, I literally just told you the BB that ran away from Akainu (But didn't run from Garp and Sengoku) isn't the same as the BB who defeated Marco 1 year and a half later.
Still missing evidence Akainu is as strong as Kizaru. Still missing evidence BB ran away means Akainu could kill his entire crew. He wasn't ready for Akainu which in your opinion means he's weaker than Akainu. He didn't run away from Garp and Sengoku together, so by your logic, he's stronger than Garp and Sengoku together.
So please, show me how Akainu is stronger than Garp and Sengoku together

Still missing evidence the dude shooting people in the heart and going for the kill against everyone except the MC was holding back a lot too.

Shit now that I look at it, you're missing a lot of evidence


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> So you have no panel of Kizaru holding back, much on the contrary?


He broke Luffy key he got from Hancock instead of aiming at Luffy's heart.



Strobacaxi said:


> Fujitora delayed going after Luffy as much as possible. He very clearly didn't want to kill or capture him. Just like he said that he didn't want to fight Zoro. And he actually held back against Sabo, someone he had literally no reason to not caputre.
> Also, if he really wanted to capture Law and Luffy, he would've attacked Luffy, not just take his attacks.


So held back doesn't decrease his power to hold back Elephant Gun. Got it. So Fujitora didn't held back when he took Elephant Gun which means Kizaru ap with his arm without df at MF was probably Gear two or Gear three level.



Strobacaxi said:


> Yes, Luffy has plot armor, congratulations. Marco got shot in the heart, and so did WB.


Concession accepted.



Strobacaxi said:


> ???
> BB fought Garp and Sengoku. Again, is Akainu stronger than the two of them combined? Because he wasn't running from them.


BB said he was the strongest at MF even though Akainu was there try again.



Strobacaxi said:


> Prove it


Jozu and Vista didn't come to Wano. BBP didn't lose any members.



Strobacaxi said:


> Mihawk hasn't been seen at Wano either, is he dead too? Marco went to get Izo because he was from Wano.


So Jozu and Vista chose to abandon Luffy when WB last wish before he died was for WBP to help Luffy until the end lmao.



Strobacaxi said:


> Noone said BB wasn't stronger than Marco.
> Yeah, I literally just told you the BB that ran away from Akainu (But didn't run from Garp and Sengoku) isn't the same as the BB who defeated Marco 1 year and a half later.


BB also said he was the strongest at MF even though Akainu was there. it was overconfident. But not after TS.



Strobacaxi said:


> Still missing evidence Akainu is as strong as Kizaru.


Akainu is stronger but the difference is small just like Akainu is stronger than Aokiji but the difference is small too.



Strobacaxi said:


> Still missing evidence BB ran away means Akainu could kill his entire crew.


You don't need evidende if you have common sense. If BB is as strong as Akainu he would kill Akainu with his crews lol like what he did to Bonney.



Strobacaxi said:


> He wasn't ready for Akainu which in your opinion means he's weaker than Akainu. He didn't run away from Garp and Sengoku together, so by your logic, he's stronger than Garp and Sengoku together.
> So please, show me how Akainu is stronger than Garp and Sengoku together


BB was overconfident in MF. He even said he was the strongest after WB died even though Akainu was there. Are you saying BB>Akainu too?



Strobacaxi said:


> Still missing evidence the dude shooting people in the heart and going for the kill against everyone except the MC was holding back a lot too.
> 
> Shit now that I look at it, you're missing a lot of evidence


Nah using plot armor is a cheap argument. Kizaru held back if he didn't he would shoot Luffy's heart. You are saying admiral=yonko and you are saying Kizaru didn't hold back means Marco=Kizaru yet recent chapter when Ace said he could take on Kaido with Izo and Marco help, Marco was speechless which means Kaido/yonko>Marco. See how ridiculous this is. So Kaido/yonko=Kizaru/admiral=Marco is what you are saying which goes against the manga.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

I'm out lol try reading the manga then come back



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Kizaru held back if he didn't he would shoot Luffy's heart.


This can only mean that by shooting Marco in the heart it means that he wasn't holding back then.
Congrats, you proved yourself wrong


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> This can only mean that by shooting Marco in the heart it means that he wasn't holding back then.
> Congrats, you proved yourself wrong


Nah you're flat out wrong. You said admiral=yonko so if Kizaru didn't hold back in MF that means Kizaru=Marco=yonko so Marco is as strong as yonko too yet Marco was speechless when Ace said he can take on Kaido with Marco and Izo help which means Kaido/yonko>Marco which also means admiral>Marco so if Kizaru=Marco in MF that means Kizaru held back.

Marco also can regen even if kizaru shot his heart.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> You said admiral=yonko


No I didn't



Dragon D Xebec said:


> so if Kizaru didn't hold back in MF that means Kizaru=Marco=yonko


Never said kizaru=Marco either



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Kaido/yonko>Marco which also means admiral>Marco so if Kizaru=Marco in MF that means Kizaru held back.


Just because Kizaru is stronger than Marco doesn't mean he has to hold back to not kill him in the 10 panels they fought.


And again, you just said, Kizaru not going for Luffy's heart was evidence he was holding back. By that logic, him going for Marco's heart is evidence he wasn't holding back.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> No I didn't
> 
> 
> Never said kizaru=Marco either
> ...


Maybe Kizaru didn't hold back when he took Marco kick with his arm similarly with Fujitora. Hold back doesn't decrease your strength to nullify your opponent attck either by blocking or using df.

After all BB even with his crews ran away from Akainu so there is a massive gap between Akainu and BB and the same BB beat Marco. Kizaru should be on the same level as Akainu more or less so Kizaru held back a lot in MF when he faced Marco.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Maybe Kizaru didn't hold back when he took Marco kick with his arm similarly with Fujitora. Hold back doesn't decrease your strength to nullify your opponent attck either by blocking or using df.


Holding back decreases your strength, that's the whole point of it. Unless you genuinely think G2 has the power to push back a serious Admiral of course. Even though it can't do that to Yamato...



Dragon D Xebec said:


> After all BB even with his crews ran away from Akainu so there is a massive gap between Akainu and BB and the same BB beat Marco. Kizaru should be on the same level as Akainu more or less so Kizaru held back a lot in MF when he faced Marco.


You just love ignoring what everyone else says, right?

BB ran from Akainu because he didn't want to risk his crew after all he went through.
again, I asked this 5 times already, you must have a hard time reading small letters, I'll help you out

*Is Akainu stronger than Garp and Sengoku together? And if not, why does BB running from Akainu make him massively weaker than Akainu, but not running from Garp and Sengoku has no meaning at all?*


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Holding back decreases your strength, that's the whole point of it. Unless you genuinely think G2 has the power to push back a serious Admiral of course. Even though it can't do that to Yamato...


So you are assuming when Fujitora took Elephant Gun he purposely lower his strength to hold it back lol? Not buying that. He held back to the point not to attack back but when he took Elephant Gun there was no reason for Fujitora to purposely lower his strength to hold back Elephant Gun unless he really wanted to feel the power of Luffy Elephant Gun which is ridiculous.



Strobacaxi said:


> You just love ignoring what everyone else says, right?
> 
> BB ran from Akainu because he didn't want to risk his crew after all he went through.


Didn't do that against Bonney though. If Akainu=>BB then BB should attack Akainu with his whole crews. There is a massive gap between Akainu and BB.



Strobacaxi said:


> Is Akainu stronger than Garp and Sengoku together? And if not, why does BB running from Akainu make him massively weaker than Akainu, but not running from Garp and Sengoku has no meaning at all?


BB was overconfident in MF. He even said he was the strongest after WB died even though Akainu was there too.  Different with Akainu case is BB already low diffed Bonney so if BB is not massively weaker than Akainu then BB should beat Akainu with his whole crews since Akainu only brought fodder marines with him whereas when BB was in MF he even said he was the strongest even though Akainu was there too. Doesn't mean BB>Akainu simple.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 18, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> So you are assuming when Fujitora took Elephant Gun he purposely lower his strength to hold it back lol? Not buying that. He held back to the point not to attack back but when he took Elephant Gun there was no reason for Fujitora to purposely lower his strength to hold back Elephant Gun unless he really wanted to feel the power of Luffy Elephant Gun which is ridiculous.


So you confirm you believe G2 can push back an Admiral who is actively trying to block it to the best of his ability?
lol



Dragon D Xebec said:


> Didn't do that against Bonney though. If Akainu=>BB then BB should attack Akainu with his whole crews. There is a massive gap between Akainu and BB.


uhm, did you just compare Bonney to Akainu?
lol

Also, as mentioned before several times, this is completely useless, since MF BB was miles behind BB who defeated Marco.



Dragon D Xebec said:


> BB was overconfident in MF. He even said he was the strongest after WB died even though Akainu was there too. Different with Akainu case is BB already low diffed Bonney so if BB is not massively weaker than Akainu then BB should beat Akainu with his whole crews since Akainu only brought fodder marines with him whereas when BB was in MF he even said he was the strongest even though Akainu was there too. Doesn't mean BB>Akainu simple.


You just compared Bonney to Akainu again lol

Dude. I'll ask again. If Akainu is so overwhelmingly stronger than BB as you claim, then the only reason Garp+Sengoku together didn't destroy BB right there and there can only be that Akainu is stronger than Garp+Sengoku. Is that what you believe, or not?

Also, btw, BB who ran away from Akainu is the exact same person as MF BB. It was a couple days later.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 18, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> So you confirm you believe G2 can push back an Admiral who is actively trying to block it to the best of his ability?
> lol
> 
> uhm, did you just compare Bonney to Akainu?
> ...


So Fujitora is a masochist. Admirals are human. They are not super android where their punch alone can overpower Elephant Gun or Kong Gun. They have their hax df. Yes Fujitora got overpowered by Gear two and Gear three his physical strength is not enough to block it but Fujitora has his hax op df to compensate for that. Arlong also survived Kizaru laser. Apoo even was conscious after Kizaru shot him. You think these two scrubs would still conscious when they take Elephant Gun or Kong Gun of Luffy after TS?


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## Jo Ndule (Dec 18, 2020)

This forum is crazy

Imsgine people believe kizaru without df > g3/g4
Insane.

Marco is a dude that can't dodge basic grab from Linlin and gets choked

Call me when linlin can choke luffy or jinbei

Kata>>Marco
CoC FS awakening vs Regen which doesn't mean crap 

To be a top pirate in NW,  you need CoC or at least top tier haki


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## Kinjin (Dec 21, 2020)

Thread unlocked... for better or worse.


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 21, 2020)

Kinjin said:


> Thread unlocked... for better or worse.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Useful 1 | Lewd 1


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## Beast (Dec 21, 2020)

BM spoke to Marco with respect and wonder why he was with chumps like Luffy... The same luffy that Beat her two sons, One being Kata.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 21, 2020)

Beast said:


> BM spoke to Marco with respect and wonder why he was with chumps like Luffy... The same luffy that Beat her two sons, One being Kata.


dont bump this thread

lol


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## Beast (Dec 21, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> dont bump this thread
> 
> lol


Just spitting some facts.

Ben> Marco>~King> Kata


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 21, 2020)

Beast said:


> Just spitting some facts.
> 
> Ben> Marco>~King> Kata


Dressrosa Luffy>Marco
Izo>King


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 21, 2020)

I don't know a Mother must speak to her son with respect? Shouldn't it be the other way? Nami also casually talk to monster trio but when speaking to non SH she speaks with more respect. 

I guess I read different manga.
Rayleigh: Among the mightiest there is someone who can regen see the future.
Doflamingo: Luffy has bigger potential than Law because Luffy unlocked regeneration Conqueror Haki.


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## Beast (Dec 21, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> I don't know a Mother must speak to her son with respect? Shouldn't it be the other way? Nami also casually talk to monster trio but when speaking to non SH she speaks with more respect.
> 
> I guess I read different manga.
> Rayleigh: Among the mightiest there is someone who can regen see the future.
> Doflamingo: Luffy has bigger potential than Law because Luffy unlocked regeneration Conqueror Haki.


It’s funnier knowing you read only one half of the post... why did BM put Marco above the likes of Luffy when luffy beat her son?
I’m sure you have one great comparison to make like 
‘Mariko also put younger Luffy Above young ace but ace was stronger lmao.’


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 21, 2020)

Beast said:


> It’s funnier knowing you read only one half of the post... why did BM put Marco above the likes of Luffy when luffy beat her son?
> I’m sure you have one great comparison to make like
> ‘Mariko also put younger Luffy Above young ace but ace was stronger lmao.’


Because Luffy pissed her off. She wanted to kill Luffy. She also talked shit to Kaido. She was also confident she can beta Beast Pirates without bringing Katakuri and Cracker    Can you show me a panel when
Rayleigh said: Among the mightiest there is someone who can regen see the future.
Doflamingo said: Luffy has bigger potential than Law because Luffy unlocked regeneration Conqueror Haki.

Bruh you only like have one portrayal for Marco while Katakuri has multiple portrayal from Rayleigh and Doflamingo and even more from his unbeatable record when fighting YC from WBP.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Beast (Dec 21, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> *Because Luffy pissed her off. She wanted to kill Luffy.* She also talked shit to Kaido. She was also confident she can beta Beast Pirates without bringing Katakuri and Cracker   Can you show me a panel when
> Rayleigh said: Among the mightiest there is someone who can regen see the future.
> Doflamingo said: Luffy has bigger potential than Law because Luffy unlocked regeneration Conqueror Haki.


So, BM being pissed ofS at Luffy... means she puts Marco above luffy... despite him NOT being above luffy?
Or are you claiming that BM had one of her episodes against Marco?

make it make sense


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 21, 2020)

Beast said:


> So, BM being pissed ofS at Luffy... means she puts Marco above luffy... despite him NOT being above luffy?
> Or are you claiming that BM had one of her episodes against Marco?
> 
> make it make sense


When did Big Mom put Marco above Luffy? This is false. Are you saying Big Mom can beat Kaido and calamities+Orochi forces without Katakuri and Cracker because that's what you are implying. Makes sense.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 21, 2020)

Beast said:


> So, BM being pissed ofS at Luffy... means she puts Marco above luffy... despite him NOT being above luffy?
> Or are you claiming that BM had one of her episodes against Marco?
> 
> make it make sense


Still waiting for panels I asked if someone like Rayleigh or Doflamingo hyped Marco.


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## Beast (Dec 22, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> When did Big Mom put Marco above Luffy? This is false. Are you saying Big Mom can beat Kaido and calamities+Orochi forces without Katakuri and Cracker because that's what you are implying. Makes sense.


She asked why someone like Him is helping the likes of strawhat, she implies that Marco is quite the force helping the likes of luffy, later confirming that at the end of their fight saying she doesn’t have enough ‘souls’ aka her power to use against him. 
The rest I have no idea what you are talking about.


Dragon D Xebec said:


> Still waiting for panels I asked if someone like Rayleigh or Doflamingo hyped Marco.


BM, Kizaru and Shanks.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 22, 2020)

Beast said:


> She asked why someone like Him is helping the likes of strawhat, she implies that Marco is quite the force helping the likes of luffy.
> The rest I have no idea what you are talking about.


That doesn't say anything. Are you saying Marco>Luffy, Zoro other SH lol. She can mean why is someone as weak as you try to help SH. She belittled Marco afterward saying Marco is remnant of dead man lol.



Beast said:


> BM, Kizaru and Shanks.


BM didn't respect Marco. Kizaru said even supernova is scary. Shanks also said Ace is strong lol and he recruited Marco is just a gag.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Beast (Dec 22, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> That doesn't say anything. Are you saying Marco>Luffy, Zoro other SH lol. She can mean why is someone as weak as you try to weak SH. She belittled Marco afterward saying Marco is remnant of dead man lol.
> 
> 
> BM didn't respect Marco. Kizaru said even supernova is scary. Shanks also said Ace is strong lol and he recruited Marco is just a gag.


Not sure what correlation you’re drawing tbh. What does The SHPs as a group gotta to do with Luffy, Kata and Marco individually. She didn’t mock or belittle Marco at any time lol.

expect she did, she had shown us that she wasn’t in the right form to take Marco out, despite baby shaking Queen without any homies or memories.
Scary and strong isn’t exactly the same, Kizaru hyped him nonetheless. 
shanks wanted him in his crew and it was done as a gag but now it’s a symbol of hype (BM does the same to King another FM of the worlds strongest title holder). You asked me for 2, I gave you 3 examples of TOP TIERS giving credit to Marco, not DD lol.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 22, 2020)

Beast said:


> Not sure what correlation you’re drawing tbh. What does The SHPs as a group gotta to do with Luffy, Kata and Marco individually. She didn’t mock or belittle Marco at any time lol.
> 
> expect she did, she had shown us that she wasn’t in the right form to take Marco out, despite baby shaking Queen without any homies or memories.


She said Marco is remnant of deadman. She belittled WB in front of Marco. Marco has advantage over Prometheus. Nothing about that saying Marco>Katakuri because Marco fire that can harm Prometheus can't beused to harm Katakuri.


Beast said:


> Scary and strong isn’t exactly the same, Kizaru hyped him nonetheless.


They are the same. Someone says scary as some sort of inferiority complex because someone he said scary to is stronger than him.


Beast said:


> shanks wanted him in his crew and it was done as a gag but now it’s a symbol of hype (BM does the same to King another FM of the worlds strongest title holder). You asked me for 2, I gave you 3 examples of TOP TIERS giving credit to Marco, not DD lol.


lol this is desperation. Big Mom wants King because King is from race Big Mom that Big Mom hasn't collected. King is treated as a pet. Nah Shanks was joking with Marco. He and Marco are best friends. Marco even told Shanks to shut up and Shanks laughtd it off.

Difference with Doflamingo is Doflamingo statement CoCo>non CoC put Katakuri above others YC one who don't have CoC. Rayleigh statement about among the mightiest has FS put Katakuri as one of the strongest character in the series.

Shanks recruited Marco didn't put Marco in any level. Same with Kizaru lol.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Beast (Dec 22, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> She said Marco is remnant of deadman. She belittled WB in front of Marco. Marco has advantage over Prometheus. Nothing about that saying Marco>Katakuri because Marco fire that can harm Prometheus can't beused to harm Katakuri.
> 
> They are the same. Someone says scary as some sort of inferiority complex because someone he said scary to is stronger than him.
> 
> ...


Marco also matches her fist and striking strength with his own. Marco doesn’t use his flames to cause damage, why would that be a big deal against Kata?

Nah, you need a dictionary bruh. Scary in a sarcastic manner while looking at Hawkins transformed body then saying Marco is strong after clashing with him.

SYMBOL, I said it’s now a symbol which is true. A yonko at another yonkos turf trying to recruit their TOP men, it’s a symbol of portrayal. Shanks knows Marco as much as Jozu, why didn’t he ask Jozu? 

Yeah, no that’s fanfic. DDs got CoC and is a warlord, so he is stronger then Mihawk who is a warlord but doesn’t have CoC? Stupid logic is stupid. CoC does nothing for Kata at this stage and level of strength.

and Sengoku and manga says the mythical Zoan is one of the rare and strongest powers of DFs, so what? Not too mention, we still haven’t seen Marco go all out.

portrayal and hype and consistent feats puts him above Kata. Marco has fought MULTIPLE top tiers and holding his own 1v1. Kata fought luffy and got a flushed out fight is all.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 22, 2020)

Beast said:


> Marco also matches her fist and striking strength with his own. Marco doesn’t use his flames to cause damage, why would that be a big deal against Kata?


And Luffy Elephant Gun and DJ matched Big Mom with her homie Zeus and the same Elephant Gun was child play for Katakuri. You might say but there was Sanji lol. katakuri would still overpower both Luffy EG and Sanji DJ. It was neg diff when Kata overpowered EG and Kata wasn't serious. Sanji DJ which is weak can push Kata to mid diff but it's still not enough to match Kata copy of EG



Beast said:


> Nah, you need a dictionary bruh. Scary in a sarcastic manner while looking at Hawkins transformed body then saying Marco is strong after clashing with him.


He said WBP are scary lol. He said WBP as a whole not Marco as an individual lmao.



Beast said:


> SYMBOL, I said it’s now a symbol which is true. A yonko at another yonkos turf trying to recruit their TOP men, it’s a symbol of portrayal. Shanks knows Marco as much as Jozu, why didn’t he ask Jozu?


And SHanks also recruited Yasopp after he heard Yasopp sniping skill. He asked Marco maybe because he knew Marco regen. And Shanks asked Marco because Marco is WB right hand man. It's logic simple lmao still doesn't put Marco above Katakuri.



Beast said:


> Yeah, no


Yeah. Dofla statement put CoC>non CoC which put Kata>King+Marco who can't use CoC. BM statement doesn't put Marco stronger than his peer. Kizaru said WBP are strong as a group not Marco as an individual.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 22, 2020)

Beast said:


> Stupid logic is stupid. CoC does nothing for Kata at this stage and level of strength.


Mihawk already has WSS title. Marco didn't have that title.



Beast said:


> portrayal and hype and consistent feats puts him above Kata.


What portrayal lol. I already debunked this. he can't damage admiral even Dressrosa Luffy damaged admiral lol. And I also debunked vs Big Mom in my first reply here.

And Luffy Elephant Gun andL DJ matched Big Mom with her homie Zeus and the same Elephant Gun was child play for Katakuri. You might say but there was Sanji lol. katakuri would still overpower both Luffy EG and Sanji DJ. It was neg diff when Kata overpowered EG and Kata wasn't serious. Sanji DJ which is weak can push Kata to mid diff but it's still not enough to match Kata copy of EG



Beast said:


> Marco has fought MULTIPLE top tiers and holding his own 1v1. Kata fought luffy and got a flushed out fight is all.


Kata lol diffed base Luffy who fought top tier Fujitora. Matching BM homie is not impressive. Big Mom choked Marco and Marco looked helpless. Here my reply:

Luffy Elephant Gun andL DJ matched Big Mom with her homie Zeus and the same Elephant Gun was child play for Katakuri. You might say but there was Sanji lol. katakuri would still overpower both Luffy EG and Sanji DJ. It was neg diff when Kata overpowered EG and Kata wasn't serious. Sanji DJ which is weak can push Kata to mid diff but it's still not enough to match Kata copy of EG



Beast said:


> and Sengoku and manga says the mythical Zoan is one of the rare and strongest powers of DFs, so what? Not too mention, we still haven’t seen Marco go all out.


He did against Kizaru and Kizaru trolled him hard.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Beast (Dec 22, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> And Luffy Elephant Gun and DJ matched Big Mom with her homie Zeus and the same Elephant Gun was child play for Katakuri. You might say but there was Sanji lol. katakuri would still overpower both Luffy EG and Sanji DJ. It was neg diff when Kata overpowered EG and Kata wasn't serious. Sanji DJ which is weak can push Kata to mid diff but it's still not enough to match Kata copy of EG
> 
> 
> He said WBP are scary lol. He said WBP as a whole not Marco as an individual lmao.
> ...


Magma fist> Fire homie fist
Marco stopped Akainu completely.
and BM was intercepted, she never aimed for EITHER sanji or Luffy and they were TOGETHER, BMs base slaps throw luffy around even now, intercepting an attack is not a problem nor does it justify any kinda of tiering you’re trying to do with it.
Daz bones intercepted an attack from Mihawk when he was aiming for someone else as well.

Loool, strawmaning ain’t gonna help you bruh. Kizaru at the time ONLY clashed with Marco, so he was referring to Marco.

it’s hype, and DD nor Ray Statements put Kata above Marco either, it’s hype.

Yeah no that’s fanfic, it’s never worked like that and never will, DD said more potential, not stronger and potential is reached pushing yourself, Kata has been comfortable in WCI for a long time.

he was talking about Marco as he had not yet interacted with ANY WB pirate.




Dragon D Xebec said:


> Mihawk already has WSS title. Marco didn't have that title.
> 
> 
> What portrayal lol. I already debunked this. he can't damage admiral even Dressrosa Luffy damaged admiral lol. And I also debunked vs Big Mom in my first reply here.
> ...


Yeah no, YOU said because Kata and Marco share the same class and Kata has CoC he is stronger, so why doesn’t it work with DD and Mihawk? Oooh, because it’s a faulty and shitty logic without any thought.

No one bar Garp has injured Marco either, what’s your point?
Luffy did not hurt Fuji lmao, Fuji let him do his thing, go reread the manga.

Intercepting an attack is not and will never be the same as matching the attack head on with your own. Nice try and I see you so easily dodged the direct comparison I made about Daz intercepting a way stronger character in Mihawk when he aimed for someone else, expect luffy even had extra help with Sanji.

No need to lie bruh, Marco didn’t even use one named attack in MF or against Kizaru but yeah... keep lying maybe it will come true some day.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 22, 2020)

Beast said:


> Magma fist> Fire homie fist
> Marco stopped Akainu completely.


Marco needed Vista help. He still didn't injure Akainu like Dressrosa Luffy bruised Fujitora.



Beast said:


> and BM was intercepted, she never aimed for EITHER sanji or Luffy and they were TOGETHER, BMs base slaps throw luffy around even now, intercepting an attack is not a problem nor does it justify any kinda of tiering you’re trying to do with it.


She attacked both Luffy and Sanji from the front similarly with Marco lol. Doesn't lower Big Mom power output. Katakuri also would still slap base Luffy. Base Luffy is not that strong.



Beast said:


> Daz bones intercepted an attack from Mihawk when he was aiming for someone else as well.


yeah like Mihawk really try to cut Luffy lol. Mihawk has Breath of all thing. He can cut what he wants to cut Big Mom doesn't have it. Try again.

Big Mom and Luffy clashed. Luffy tried to attack Big Mom with EG. Daz Bones didn't try to attack Mihawk. Only defended his attack. This is the worst comparison ever.



Beast said:


> Loool, strawmaning ain’t gonna help you bruh. Kizaru at the time ONLY clashed with Marco, so he was referring to Marco.


yeah no in the manga Kizaru didn't say Marco is strong. He trolled Marco and pretended to be hurt.




Beast said:


> it’s hype, and DD nor Ray Statements put Kata above Marco either, it’s hype.


The hype doesn't clearly put Marco which level he is. Dofla statement put CoC Kata>non CoC Marco. Smae with Rayleigh. Put Kata as one of the strongest character in the series.



Beast said:


> Yeah no that’s fanfic, it’s never worked like that and never will, DD said more potential, not stronger and potential is reached pushing yourself, Kata has been comfortable in WCI for a long time.


Except Kata trained his CoO until he got FS so it relates to potential. It's different if someone has high potential but lazy then yeah doesn't put that CoC user>non CoC who trained their ass off.



Beast said:


> he was talking about Marco as he had not yet interacted with ANY WB pirate.


That because Marco is WB right hand man. How is that put Marco above Kata? It's logic if someone recruited someone right hand man it's normal. Still doesn;t put Marco level above Kata.



Beast said:


> Yeah no, YOU said because Kata and Marco share the same class and Kata has CoC he is stronger, so why doesn’t it work with DD and Mihawk?


Mihawk has WSS title. Marco didn't.



Beast said:


> Oooh, because it’s a faulty and shitty logic without any thought.


Mihawk already portrayal as yonko rival. marco didn't have that portrayal. Mihawk has World strongest title. Marco didn't have that, We are still blank who is tronger between Katakuri and Marco before Katakuro used CoC. But after Katakuri used CoC it's clear Katakuri>Marco.



Beast said:


> No one bar Garp has injured Marco either, what’s your point?


Oh trolled Kizaru didn't injure Marco ismimpressive lmao. Marco was bleeding before he was cuffed by Onigumo.



Beast said:


> Luffy did not hurt


Yes he did. Fujitora got bruised.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 22, 2020)

Beast said:


> Luffy did not hurt Fuji lmao, Fuji let him do his thing, go reread the manga.


And Luffy said what his next attack would be to Fujitora. And Kizaru also held back lol.



Beast said:


> Intercepting an attack is not and will never be the same as matching the attack head on with your own. Nice try and I see you so easily dodged the direct comparison I made about Daz intercepting a way stronger character in Mihawk when he aimed for someone else,


yeah like Mihawk really try to cut Luffy lol. Mihawk has Breath of all thing. He can cut what he wants to cut Big Mom doesn't have it. Try again.

Big Mom and Luffy clashed. Luffy tried to attack Big Mom with EG. Daz Bones didn't try to attack Mihawk. Only defended his attack. This is the worst comparison ever.



Beast said:


> luffy even had extra help with Sanji.


Katakuri would beat EG+DJ. Non serious Kata neg dffed EG. DJ will not make that much difference. Kata copy EG>Marco ap.



Beast said:


> No need to lie bruh, Marco didn’t even use one named attack in MF or against Kizaru but yeah... keep lying maybe it will come true some day.


And Kizaru didn't either. Only when he attacked WB. He fought Marco off panel and Marco was bleeding.



coloured version.


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## Beast (Dec 23, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> And Luffy said what his next attack would be to Fujitora. And Kizaru also held back lol.
> 
> 
> yeah like Mihawk really try to cut Luffy lol. Mihawk has Breath of all thing. He can cut what he wants to cut Big Mom doesn't have it. Try again.
> ...


Fuji being bruised because he didn’t want to hurt Luffy is not a feat. Fuji as he showed US ALL, he could have crushed Luffy and his alliance without any problem, Fuji wanted to bring down DD but he couldn’t do it himself.., read the fucking manga and stop with this Bs.

Mihawk didn’t try to cut luffy? Bruh, go reread the manga and stop with this fanfic and headcanon... Mihawk didn’t want ot hurt Luffy but apparently Fuji tried his hardest? Fucking joker, go take your bias somewhere else.

again false comparison, you can keep saying it but it won’t change anything.
1. Big mom did not attack Luffy or Sanji
2. It was an interception not a clash.
3. It was 2 people Sanji and Luffy TOGETHER
4. Marco clashed with BM on panel by himself 

so you can try to do that fake maths all you want, Kata only matched and outpowered luffys G3 by himself, Sanji was never there... you saying that he could take both their attacks and overpower them is what we can call fanfic, it never happened on panel.

Daz bones intercepted Mihawks attack, that is a fact and he stopped it, that is also a fact, Luffy and Sanji did something similar against BM, they never matched her blow equally, that’s a lie.

fanfic, you already made a thread about it and look at that thread... it’s funny how only YOU don’t see the terrible logic and errors of your post.

So, you were wrong? Marco never went all out in MF, well thanks for conceding on that point I guess. And Kizaru did use a named attack, that’s the first thing he does and Marco stops it, nice try but you lies and then lied again, amazing.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 23, 2020)

Beast said:


> Fuji being bruised because he didn’t want to hurt Luffy is not a feat. Fuji as he showed US ALL, he could have crushed Luffy and his alliance without any problem, Fuji wanted to bring down DD but he couldn’t do it himself.., read the fucking manga and stop with this Bs.


So Fujitora purposely lowered his strength to blocking lol. Fuji held back not to hurt Luffy but not when he blocked Luffy Elephant Rifle lol. You are the one with BS saying Fujitora held back that he purposely lowered his blocking strength that it made him bruised which makes it like Fujitora wanted to feel Elephant Rifle lol.



Beast said:


> Mihawk didn’t try to cut luffy? Bruh, go reread the manga and stop with this fanfic and headcanon... Mihawk didn’t want ot hurt Luffy but apparently Fuji tried his hardest? Fucking joker, go take your bias somewhere else.


lol you are the fucking joke. Explain why Vista who needed back up to beat Ronse can stall Mihawk lmao. Explain why Crocodile can stall Mihawk if Mihawk was really serious. You're joke. here.



Beast said:


> again false comparison, you can keep saying it but it won’t change anything.
> 1. Big mom did not attack Luffy or Sanji


Doesn't decrease her power output lol.


Beast said:


> 2. It was an interception not a clash.


Same still doesn't lower her power putput.



Beast said:


> 3. It was 2 people Sanji and Luffy TOGETHER


Kata neg diffed EG. Sanji DJ won't make a difference. Kata EG copy>EG+DJ which were similar with attack Marco used when clashing with Prometheus.



Beast said:


> 4. Marco clashes with BM on panel


Same with Luffy and Sanji.



Beast said:


> so you can try to do that fake maths all you want, Kata only matched and outpowered luffys G3 by himself, Sanji was never there... you saying that he could take both their attacks and overpower them is what we can call fanfic, it never happened on panel.


Kata was never serious and it was neg diff. Even if Sanji was there his DJ is weak. It won't make enough difference since strength difference between Kata copy EG and Luffy EG are so massive.



Beast said:


> Daz bones intercepted Mihawks attack, that is a fact and he stopped it, that is also a fact, Luffy and Sanji did something similar against BM, they never matched her blow equally, that’s a lie.


And Mihawk wasn;t serious. That's a fact. If he were serious he would beat Vista and murder Crocodile. Mihawk also used close ranged attack on Daz later which is stringer than ranged attack he used on Daz.



Beast said:


> fanfic, you already made a thread about it and look at that thread... it’s funny how only YOU don’t see the terrible logic and errors of your post.


You can't debunk it though.




Beast said:


> So, you we’re wrong? Marco never went all out in MF, well thanks for conceding in that point I guess. And Kizaru did use a named attack, that’s the first thing he does and Marco stops it, nice try but you lies and then lied again, amazing.


He didn't when fighting Marco on and off panel. Marco was on his mercy bleeding. Marco wanted to save Ace and he wasn't serious okay thanks to confirm marco is a retard lol.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Beast (Dec 23, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> So Fujitora purposely lowered his strength to blocking lol. Fuji held back not to hurt Luffy but not when he blocked Luffy Elephant Rifle lol. You are the one with BS saying Fujitora held back that he purposely lowered his blocking strength that it made him bruised which makes it like Fujitora wanted to feel Elephant Rifle lol.
> 
> 
> lol you are the fucking joke. Explain why Vista who needed back up to beat Ronse can stall Mihawk lmao. Explain why Crocodile can stall Mihawk if Mihawk was really serious. You're joke. here.
> ...


We know that he did, from the story of the arc till the end... Fuji let Luffy do his thing, bruh... did you read the DR arc? Fuji even reverts blinding himself because he couldn’t see Luffys face. My guy, take up English literature lessons or something, this shot is easy as fuck to understand. Fuji never tried against Luffy, not when he was attack, nor when he was blocking.

Ask Oda, do I look I wrote that scene? Does it change that it on panel? Mihawk couldn’t get past Vista without it taking some time, same things with BM and Marco, just because you hate on them doesn’t make them weak.  The biggest joke here really is you... you are denying manga panels and facts... why because it hurts your tiering? Well too bad, it’s on panel and the other shit is in your head.

Except we know it does, as I’ve given you enough examples... intercepting an attack is not the same as clashing head straight with it.

Well that’s a lie... go look it up on google if reading and writing is to hard for you, you can do the audio search if that helps, Clashing is not the same intercepting, simple.

and another lie, why do you keep lying?
Intercept one word in English language.
Clash another word separate and different from (intercept) in the English language. Go study those words... that’s your homework for the week.

That’s another lie and false equivalence, just because you think that doesn’t make it so... Kata got beat by Luffy byhimself, adding Sanji, Kata would have never had a chance nor would he ever overpower them together, who’s to say my claim is less possible then yours? Oooh I know, Oda because he didn’t write either my fanfic or yours, so stick to what’s on panel and not your shitty maths and interpretation of the manga.

Ahh even more lies, good thing I have the manga to back me up.

‘I’m sorry redhaired... I won’t be holding back’
I can’t count how many times you’ve been wrong at this point.

You mean, numerous people debunked it... the very first post in the thread shows how wrong you are, only you seem to think you’re right.


wow, you’re a fucking retard, shit.
you said Marco went all out... I corrected you and then you said Neither was kizaru, so what does Kizaru have anything to do with you saying Marco went all out? Now, you’ve moved the goal of your post again, it’s idiotic and frankly, stupid, posts here don’t just disappear like a Snapchat, anyone can see this, it’s embarrassing that you keep chatting so much shit out of your ass. Like the picture you posted of Marco bleeding, is a distracted Marco that got two vs 1 while having seastone put on him... like what part of your brain is even functioning right now? Seems like you’re on auto pilot without any train of thought.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 23, 2020)

Beast said:


> We know that he did, from the story of the arc till the end... Fuji let Luffy do his thing, bruh... did you read the DR arc?


Can you even read shithead? Fujitora didn't hold back when he blocked Eleohant Rifle. What do you mean? Fujitora is masochist? He purposely lowered his block strength when he blocked Elehant Rifle? Since you are too stupid to understand I'll give you an example.

Zoro fights Luffy with two swords. He will not use nitoryu named attack. That's a nerf since three swords Zoro is stronger but do you think when Zoro blocks Luffy attack he will purposely lower his blacking strength? That's what you said about Fujitora. He was bruised because he held back lmao which means he purposely lowered his blocking strength so Elephant Rifle pushed him easier.



Beast said:


> Fuji even reverts blinding himself because he couldn’t see Luffys face. My guy, take up English literature lessons or something, this shot is easy as fuck to understand. Fuji never tried against Luffy, not when he was attack, nor when he was blocking.


You are the one that needs to take smart pill because holding back doesn;t decrease blocking power. Luffy also held back because he can't attack Fujitora who is blind.



Beast said:


> Ask Oda, do I look I wrote that scene? Does it change that it on panel? Mihawk couldn’t get past Vista without it taking some time, same things with BM and Marco, just because you hate on them doesn’t make them weak. The biggest joke here really is you... you are denying manga panels and facts... why because it hurts your tiering? Well too bad, it’s on panel and the other shit is in your head.


You are the only joke because you think Crocodile and Vista in MF were as strong as Mihawk. You are pathetic that you dodged my question and resort to this bullshit. You ignored contect taht you think MF Crocodile was Mihawk level lol what a garbage power scaling.



Beast said:


> Except we know it does, as I’ve given you enough examples... intercepting an attack is not the same as clashing head straight with it.


Let me explain again since you are so stupid. Mihawk used long ranged attack. Daz blocked. Then Mihawk used close ranged attack and Daz was down. Meaning Mihawk increased his cutting power. He intended to cut Luffy but was blocked by Daz. SO he increased his attack power that allowed him to cut Daz, close ranged attack. So different power output when Daz blocked and after Daz blocked.

Big Mom however she will still used same power putput. She had no reason to lower her power output because he really tried to kill Reiju.



Beast said:


> Well that’s a lie... go look it up on google if reading and writing is to hard for you, you can do the audio search if that helps, Clashing is not the same intercepting, simple.
> and another lie, why do you keep lying?
> Intercept one word in English language.
> Clash another word separate and different from (intercept) in the English language. Go study those words... that’s your homework for the week.



Does it lower Big Mom power output. Explain dumbass. You keep talking intercepting when both Luffy and Sanji attacked Big Mom from the front.  They tried to hurt Big Mom thus they used named attack Elephant Gun and DJ.



Beast said:


> That’s another lie and false equivalence, just because you think that doesn’t make it so... Kata got beat by Luffy byhimself, adding Sanji, Kata would have never had a chance nor would he ever overpower them together, who’s to say my claim is less possible then yours? Oooh I know, Oda because he didn’t write either my fanfic or yours, so stick to what’s on panel and not your shitty maths and interpretation of the manga.


Reread what I said pathetic. I'm talking about ap. Marco clashed with Prometheus was similar with Luffy and Sanji clahed with Big Mom. I explained why Katakuri copy EG>Luffy EG and Sanji DJ that they  used on Big Mom because non serious Kata neg doffed EG. The gap was so big. Adding Sanji in fist clash by Sanji using DJ won't make a difference. Hence why Non serious Kata>EG+DJ=Marco ap



Beast said:


> Ahh even more lies, good thing I have the manga to back me up.
> 
> ‘I’m sorry redhaired... I won’t be holding back’
> I can’t count how many times you’ve been wrong at this point.


Except Mihawk said he was not interested in a war. Mihawk was looking at Luffy when he clashed with Vista. Pre TS dodged Mihawk attack and post TS Luffy can't dodge Katakuri. What are you saying about that? Are you going to make excuse Mihawk was holding back? GTFOH with that gabage ass excuse explanation.



Beast said:


> wow, you’re a fucking retard, shit.
> you said Marco went all out...


lool trying so hard to insult out of desperation. Your explanation is garbage lol. You said Marco didn't go all out so Marco wasn't serious when Ace life was at stake? Can;t debunk shit because you accidentally said Marco is a retard for holding back against admiral when Ace life was at stake loool.



Beast said:


> I corrected you and then you said Neither was kizaru, so what does Kizaru have anything to do with you saying


You didn't correct shit. Marco vs Kizaru was mostly off panel. That Marco didn't use named attack is come straight from your ass. The only panel is when Kizaru attacked WB. When we saw the fight again this is Marco.




Beast said:


> Marco went all out? Now, you’ve moved the goal of your post again, it’s idiotic and frankly, stupid, posts here don’t just disappear like a Snapchat,


You are the idiotic one lol. You said Marco didn't use named attack. You were the one who said Marco didn't go all out and debunked your garbage ass biae=sed explanation by saying Marco is a retard for didn;t go all out when Ace life was at stake.



Beast said:


> anyone can see this, it’s embarrassing that you keep chatting so much shit out of your ass.


You are the one who said Marco didn't go all out because he didn't use named attack when Ace life was at stake and when most of the fight was off panel. Now explain why did Marco choose to not go all out when Ace was about to be executed. I know you have two digit IQ so instead of trying to debunk my explanation you are insulting me right now.



Beast said:


> Like the picture you posted of Marco bleeding, is a distracted Marco that got two vs 1 while having seastone put on him... like what part of your brain is even functioning right now? Seems like you’re on auto pilot without any train of thought.


Except he didn't.  Marco wasn't distracted here before Onigumo cuffed him. This is Marco vs Kizaru before Onigumo came. He screamed pop but there was no indication that Marco was looking away when Kizaru damaged him that caused him bleeding in panel below.


No need to talk shit just because you can't answer why Crocodile and Vista can stall Mihawk and how retard Marco was hor not going all out according to your logic when Ace life was at stake.


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## Beast (Dec 23, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Can you even read shithead? Fujitora didn't hold back when he blocked Eleohant Rifle. What do you mean? Fujitora is masochist? He purposely lowered his block strength when he blocked Elehant Rifle? Since you are too stupid to understand I'll give you an example.
> 
> Zoro fights Luffy with two swords. He will not use nitoryu named attack. That's a nerf since three swords Zoro is stronger but do you think when Zoro blocks Luffy attack he will purposely lower his blacking strength? That's what you said about Fujitora. He was bruised because he held back lmao which means he purposely lowered his blocking strength so Elephant Rifle pushed him easier.
> 
> ...


Fuji held back its cut clear and dry. Don’t give a darn what you think about lowering this and that strength. Fuji was not trying and held back against Liffy, from start to finish.

You’re a fucking idiot, what does holding back mean to you? Fuji just like his peers could have shit stomped luffy and everyone on DR, don’t blame for your lack of reading comprehension.

Look at that, still you haven’t learned how to read. I said they stopped him... which they did. Anything Before and after that Is just you.

Mihawk did not use a long range attack and we’ve seen what his long range attacks can do, it’s simple... he was aiming for luffy that’s why Daz was able to block. Simple.

No, BM attacked Reiji that was standing there helplessly... BMs attacks aren’t all
Of them same level, go take that logic somewhere else.

You’re calling me stupid but you can’t tell the difference between clashing equally 1v1 and intercepting an attack aimed at someone else WHILE being helped by someone else? Yeah, I think you need to look up what Stupid means.

Look at that shorty bias, so Marco faced Prom while Sanji and Luffy faced Bm despite BM using the same fire fist move? You’re right, pathetic, you’re reading skills are pathetic.

Ahhh, you still don’t concede, it’s okay to be wrong I know it must burn deep deep down. Mihawk was serious and said so himself, him looking at luffy and complementing him doesn’t change shit, zero it changes nothing.

Wow... So, it really came down to this, ‘no you said...’ as I’ve said before there posts here with your quotes on it. I will highlight everything you lies about.

that’s how I know you don’t actually read Op, you must read summaries of the chapters... where was Marco running toward you Bafoon? Post the whole page you fucking idiot... then you will see the full picture.

Why can Vista and Croc stall mihawk? Because Oda made it so... it’s on panel, don’t cry to me about it, pay money and ask Oda at the next SBs.

the reason I’m insulting you is because... truthfully you need it, you lie and/ or deny with everything in your post.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 23, 2020)

Beast said:


> Fuji held back its cut clear and dry. Don’t give a darn what you think about lowering this and that strength. Fuji was not trying and held back against Liffy, from start to finish.


Dodging my question I see




Beast said:


> You’re a fucking idiot, what does holding back mean to you? Fuji just like his peers could have shit stomped luffy and everyone on DR, don’t blame for your lack of reading comprehension.


You are the idiot here. Does it affect his blocking power? Lucky also held back because he camat attack blind old man like Fujitora.



Beast said:


> Look at that, still you haven’t learned how to read. I said they stopped him... which they did. Anything Before and after that Is just you.


Dumbass. Luffy and Sanji tried to hurt Big Mom. They used named attack. That doesn't power Big Mom and Lucky Sanji power output. Luffy Sanji attacked Big Mom from the front.




Beast said:


> Mihawk did not use a long range attack and we’ve seen what his long range attacks can do, it’s simple... he was aiming for luffy that’s why Daz was able to block. Simple.


Close range attack is stronger than range attack. Daz blocked ranged attack but can not blocked close ranged attack. Mihawk just increased his cutting power. Different with Big Mom. She would not dexrease her attack power.





Beast said:


> No, BM attacked Reiji that was standing there helplessly... BMs attacks aren’t all
> Of them same level, go take that logic somewhere else.


How does that lower Big Mom attack power? Big Mom tried to kill Reiju. Came Luffy and Sanji tried to attack Big Mom then some season Big Mom attack power decreased?




Beast said:


> You’re calling me stupid but you can’t tell the difference between clashing equally 1v1 and intercepting an attack aimed at someone else WHILE being helped by someone else? Yeah, I think you need to look up what Stupid means


It is clear you are stupid.  Luffy and Sanji tried to attack Big Mom and hurt Big Mom and they did it from the front. Their nemad attacks clashed with   Big Mom zeus it is same situation with Big Mom vs Marco.




Beast said:


> Look at that shorty bias, so Marco faced Prom while Sanji and Luffy faced Bm despite BM using the same fire fist move? You’re right, pathetic, you’re reading skills are pathetic.


What bias? BM used homie against both Marco and Luffy/Sanji. Marco attaxked Big Mom. Luffy/Sanji attackrd Big Mom.




Beast said:


> Ahhh, you still don’t concede, it’s okay to be wrong I know it must burn deep deep down. Mihawk was serious and said so himself, him looking at luffy and complementing him doesn’t change shit, zero it changes nothing.


You are like broken radio repeating the same shit. So Katakuri>Mihawk got it. Luffy can dodge Mihawk but cannot dodge Katakuri got it.



Beast said:


> Wow... So, it really came down to this, ‘no you said...’ as I’ve said before there posts here with your quotes on it. I will highlight everything you lies about.





Beast said:


> that’s how I know you don’t actually read Op, you must read summaries of the chapters... where was Marco running toward you Bafoon? Post the whole page you fucking idiot... then you will see the full picture.


There is no panel indicating Kizaru cheapshot Marco. Marco has regen after all. He should recover asap. Kizaru attack jst did that much damage that it took longer for Marco to recover.



Beast said:


> Why can Vista and Croc stall mihawk? Because Oda made it so... it’s on panel, don’t cry to me about it, pay money and ask Oda at the next SBs.


So no explanation whatsoever. lol bullshit. I can also answer why can Luffy bruise Fujitora because Oda made it so lool.



Beast said:


> the reason I’m insulting you is because... truthfully you need it, you lie and/ or deny with everything in your post.


You are the one dodging my argument. Fuck off. Reread the manga if you have no answer my Crocodile and Vosta can stall Mihawk.


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## Jo Ndule (Dec 23, 2020)

No top tier has even called Marco strong 

Ace was hyped by shanks to be strong
Shanks never hyped Marco.
Linlin didnt hype Marco...she only showed a bit respect like she did to Jinbei.

Rayleigh, Capone, Luffy, Oda, BMP,...all of them called Kata SUPER STRONG/MIGHTIEST/VERY POWERFUL

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Corax (Dec 23, 2020)

King and Marco at least stopped BM and her crew. Not a big feat as we all know who BM is,but still a better feat than fighting WCI Luffy extreme diff.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## LadyVados (Dec 23, 2020)

Jo Ndule said:


> No top tier has even called Marco strong
> 
> Ace was hyped by shanks to be strong
> Shanks never hyped Marco.
> ...


Do you still think Kata could push Shanks to high diff ?


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## Beast (Dec 23, 2020)

Dragon D Xebec said:


> Dodging my question I see
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For the sake of the Kidd fan base, I’ll leave this alone.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 23, 2020)

Jo Ndule said:


> Rayleigh, Capone, Luffy, Oda, BMP,...all of them called Kata SUPER STRONG/MIGHTIEST/VERY POWERFUL


Does Rayleigh even know who Katakuri is?

And did you just put Capone and top tier in the same post?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zero (Dec 24, 2020)

Jo Ndule said:


> No top tier has even called Marco strong


Couldn't you say Whitebeard* (Which is a top tier)* called Marco strong indirectly, by promoting him to 1st division commander of the crew.


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## Jo Ndule (Dec 25, 2020)

Zero said:


> Couldn't you say Whitebeard* (Which is a top tier)* called Marco strong indirectly, by promoting him to 1st division commander of the crew.


He didnt promote him
Marco chose that on his own
Reread Oden flashbacks 

Wb nly chose Oden for the second division, the others got to choose their divisions
+ MARCO is a doctor
Being 1st or 3rd commander of division isn't about strength. That's why the people who are 2nd commanders are the best wb pirates : Oden and prime Ace

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 25, 2020)

Jo Ndule said:


> He didnt promote him
> Marco chose that on his own
> Reread Oden flashbacks
> 
> ...


If he wasn't worthy of it he wouldn't have gotten it.


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## Beast (Dec 25, 2020)

Zero said:


> Couldn't you say Whitebeard* (Which is a top tier)* called Marco strong indirectly, by promoting him to 1st division commander of the crew.


He was WBs right hand man, Jo is just hating.

Reactions: Like 1


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## OG sama (Dec 26, 2020)

Lol at people using that garbage ass respect shit to prove why Marco is stronger as if that hasn’t been debunked in this thread with over 10 damn pages.

BM is your typical Mom that respects the guest but doesn’t give her own kids any credit. Anyone that has a mom can probably relate to what I’m saying because that’s how a lot of Moms are.

It doesn’t prove Marco is stronger than Katakuri.  And it’s pretty funny that people are acting like they have amnesia or something like this hasn’t already been debunked twenty million times.

Like I said, Marco is Yonko FM level, his fight this arc will most likely be King. Which won’t be an easy battle for him at all, not only is Oda not going to make someone as strong as King look like a bitch but he’s not going to make him look like a bitch in his first ever on screen fight, which can only mean one thing, Marco is going to struggle to beat this dude and it might not even get a conclusion. Oda could have Marco win in a extremely difficult battle or they could just stalemate.

Either way, Marco being Admiral level or anything like that is dead. If he was as strong as that. He would be on the roof instead of leaving that to Luffy and the others.


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## Quipchaque (Dec 26, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Lol at people using that garbage ass respect shit to prove why Marco is stronger as if that hasn’t been debunked in this thread with over 10 damn pages.
> 
> BM is your typical Mom that respects the guest but doesn’t give her own kids any credit. Anyone that has a mom can probably relate to what I’m saying because that’s how a lot of Moms are.
> 
> ...



Eh... I would still not write off the idea that it is actually Zoro who will fight King. After all he has to get his 1on1 eventually. And it sounds really far-fetched that Marco would steal that. And Marco does not need to be on the roof to be Admiral level. Just like Law is not Admiral level for being there. If anything that fact that he pulls out 1 Named attack after another just like I Kept pointing out for years that he will do opens completely new possibilities.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 26, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I would still not write off the idea that it is actually Zoro who will fight King.


I'm a big fan of Zoro cutting Kaido, Kaido then gets up and breaks Sandai Kitetsu, injures Zoro and he is thrown down from the dome and then he'll have to fight King with 2 swords, poterntially getting the Nidai from Hitetsu during the fight somehow and beating King with Ashura


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## Quipchaque (Dec 26, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> I'm a big fan of Zoro cutting Kaido, Kaido then gets up and breaks Sandai Kitetsu, injures Zoro and he is thrown down from the dome and then he'll have to fight King with 2 swords, poterntially getting the Nidai from Hitetsu during the fight somehow and beating King with Ashura



That is kinda what I am hoping and Expecting too especially since Zoro still has not used ashura... And Unless Zoro can somehow solo Kaido he will not use it against him either since Oda put way too much emphasis on Ashura as a super awesome secret weapon that Zoro saved for about 400 chapters now. I am sure it will be game changing just like it was against Kaku. But Kaido is too strong for that treatment.


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 26, 2020)

OG sama said:


> someone as strong as King look like a bitch but he’s not going to make him look like a bitch in his first ever on screen fight, which can only mean one thing, Marco is going to struggle to beat this dude and it might not even get a conclusion. Oda could have Marco win in a extremely difficult battle or they could just stalemate.


This is totally plausible. He also doesn't need to be Katakuri level to have a fight with King and also be relatively close to  someone like Fujitora .



OG sama said:


> Either way, Marco being Admiral level or anything like that is dead. If he was as strong as that. He would be on the roof instead of leaving that to Luffy and the others.


That doesn't really mean anything.


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