# 3rd Raikage vs. 4th Raikage



## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2014)

*Location:* Alliance vs. Edo Madara, pre-meteors
*Distance:* 10m
*Knowledge:* Full (A heard about how his dad got the scar on his chest)
*Mindset:* In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-A has both arms.

*Scenario 2:* A has one arm.


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## Ersa (Jan 20, 2014)

Ei can't do anything to his father, he outspeeds for a while then eventually gets tagged with Nukite after a long fight. Without Sharingan or Sage sensing I doubt he'll get the chance to outmaneuver his father and send Nukite back at him. It's possible but I wouldn't bank on it.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 20, 2014)

No restrictions he defeats 4th with amber sealing pot , besides Ei has nothing that can harm his father


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## Bonly (Jan 20, 2014)

Sandaime wins more times then not. A doesn't have the power to get through his dad's defense while his dad can get through his defense. Sandaime eventually finish off his son.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> No restrictions he defeats 4th with amber sealing pot ,



A knows what it is and how it works; he's faster than his dad, too, so I doubt such an unwieldy item will be of any use here.



> besides Ei has nothing that can harm his father



Neither did Naruto.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 20, 2014)

Theoretically he should be able to side-slap his father's arm and force him to stab himself once again. 

Other than that, you're looking at a stamina stand-off. Ei is arguably one of the best conditioned fighters in the manga, but unlikely that he'd outlast his father with his 3 day, 10,000 man standoff.


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## Turrin (Jan 20, 2014)

So it's basically can Ei pull of the same move as SM Naruto; I think people tend to forget that SM Naruto was able to send Sandaime's arm flying into his chest due to the fact that his Physical Strength is off the charts in SM and was further enhanced their w/ Rasengan adding to pushing power behind his strength. Ei may have the reactions to accomplish wait Naruto did w/ fully amped shroud, but i'm not sure Ei has the physical strength to overcome his father's strength hitting his father's arm into his chest; in-fact I heavily doubt that is the case. If he can't pull that off Sandaime wins comfortably as Ei can't damage him while Sandaime can cut him to ribbons w/ hellbringer and outlast his son in an endurance struggle.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 20, 2014)

A amps his shroud to V2, and replicates what Naruto did.

A wins this.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So it's basically can Ei pull of the same move as SM Naruto; I think people tend to forget that SM Naruto was able to send Sandaime's arm flying into his chest due to the fact that his Physical Strength is off the charts in SM and was further enhanced their w/ Rasengan adding to pushing power behind his strength. Ei may have the reactions to accomplish wait Naruto did w/ fully amped shroud, but i'm not sure Ei has the physical strength to overcome his father's strength hitting his father's arm into his chest; in-fact I heavily doubt that is the case. If he can't pull that off Sandaime wins comfortably as Ei can't damage him while Sandaime can cut him to ribbons w/ hellbringer and outlast his son in an endurance struggle.


I'm not seeing what makes you believe Ei is not as powerful as his father?

He casually slapped Bee across the landscape in base, he busts concrete in base, he held a V3 legged Susano above him with one arm effortlessly and his physique actually looks better than his father's:
[Ei]
[His Pop]

A weaker man can easily direct someone's arm wherever they want as long as they are faster and have the right technique.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2014)

I think it's pretty clear that both the 3rd and 4th Raikage possess far greater physical strength than Sage Naruto, anyway.

I mean, Naruto needed a Rasengan to deflect the 3rd's arm from the side.

These are Bijuu-level ninja who fight only with their bodies, so of course they're going to be stronger than Sage Mode.


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## Turrin (Jan 20, 2014)

Sandaime has very impressive feats:
-Causing massive explosions w/ his strength:
[Ei]
-Blowing through Massive Earth Walls w/ his body:
[Ei]
[Ei]
-Sending multiple people flying so far into the air w/ just a flick of his wrist:
[Ei]
- Just decimating massive stone structures:
[Ei]
- A single punch decimating massive stone structures and sending the Gomudama flying so dam far:
[Ei]
[Ei]

I don't know where you got that I said Sandaime is stronger, anyway. I think his feats look at least as impressive as Ei's if not more so, but w/o a statement or a drastically different display we don't know for sure whose stronger and how big the margin is. What I do know though is SM Naruto's physical strength is greater than Ei's and he enhanced his strike power even further w/ Rasengan; so just because SM Naruto's Rasengan has the striking power to push Sandaime's arm back into his chest I have no reason to assume Ei is capable of such. 

And no I don't think applying real world logic to the manga is a good idea in the slightest; to me Kishi has only shown someone of SM Naruto's strength + Rasengan having the necessary striking power to do this, so I don't think we should assume someone like Ei who has much inferior striking power could do the same. Nor do I think even in the real world it would be easy to evade someone's attack and than force their arm into their chest while they are in mid strike; even if you were quite skilled in techniques and a bit faster than that person.

I also think there is another issue here and that is if both have full knowledge than Sandaime would know exactly how strong Ei and fast Ei is, so if their is a danger Ei turning his own attack against him, I doubt he's going to make it easy for Ei to get that chance.


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## Turrin (Jan 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I think it's pretty clear that both the 3rd and 4th Raikage possess far greater physical strength than Sage Naruto, anyway.




[Ei]
[Ei]
[Ei]
[Ei]



> I mean, Naruto needed a Rasengan to deflect the 3rd's arm from the side.


That should tell you that Ei's level of physical strength is not enough and just how much strength was required to blindside Sandaime that way.



> These are Bijuu-level ninja who fight only with their bodies, so of course they're going to be stronger than Sage Mode.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 20, 2014)

> Turrin said:
> 
> 
> > Sandaime has very impressive feats:
> ...


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## ATastyMuffin (Jan 20, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Naruto's greatest striking feat in SM was sending Deva Path, an extremely weak body dragging across a landscape suffering no damage whatsoever. His arm wasn't even damaged.



Deva Path is extremely weak? He took a Shinra Tensei that was at least as powerful as the one that sent 100-meter frogs flying dozens of kilometers, without any sign of significant damage to the actual body. 

Said Shinra Tensei threw him half-way across Konoha and caused a massive explosion half the height of the mountain itself. 

His durability would permit him to easily survive several of Ei's attacks.



> Preta Path *parried *his strikes and that path has shown virtually no strength or striking feats.



When did Preta Path parry any of his strikes? He dodged Naruto's punch, that's all. 



> SM Naruto has yet to bust concrete with his fist, something that Gated Lee did by simply stepping on it.



Sage Jiraiya kicked Human Path hard enough to crack open several divots in the floor, and the remaining skidding force was still great enough to blast a wide, deep cave open in a large boulder. 

Naruto's easily scalable to that level of strength.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> blast a wide, deep cave open in a large boulder.
> blast a wide, deep cave open in a large boulder.
> blast a wide, deep cave open in a large boulder.
> blast a wide, deep cave open in a large boulder.



What's your point? I know Sage Naruto has better lifting feats, but better feats don't always prove the better shinobi. For example, part 1 base Rock Lee has better strength feats than Itachi, yet we know through powerscaling from Sasuke that Itachi would wreck his shit in Taijutsu.

Same deal with the Raikage vs. Sage Naruto; they can damage Susano'o with their strikes, something Sage Naruto could never accomplish with any amount of Taijutsu.



> That should tell you that Ei's level of physical strength is not enough and just how much strength was required to blindside Sandaime that way.



Yeah, and A should easily be able to replicate it with a Lariat that matches V1 Killer B, who shattered Unraikyou by tackling into it--something no basic Rasengan we've ever seen can replicate.



>



I don't know why you act like this emote is an argument, but it's not.

Both Raikage are Bijuu-level. They fight with only Nin-Taijutsu. It's not rocket science.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jan 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> What's your point? I know Sage Naruto has better lifting feats, but better feats don't always prove the better shinobi. For example, part 1 base Rock Lee has better strength feats than Itachi, yet we know through powerscaling from Sasuke that Itachi would wreck his shit in Taijutsu.



This make sense, but...



> Same deal with the Raikage vs. Sage Naruto; they can damage Susano'o with their strikes, something Sage Naruto could never accomplish with any amount of Taijutsu.



... this doesn't. How exactly are you so certain that Sage Naruto couldn't? We don't have a point of reference.


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## ARGUS (Jan 20, 2014)

3rd Raikage wins this 
A does not have enough offensive power to penetrate his fathers defenses
Third Raikage is also likely to not use his one finger nukite bcz he can still severely injure A 
By the weaker nukites... 
Naruto mainly defeated the third due to having sage mode sensing which enabled him to have great reflexes and accurately attack the third raikage... A on the other hand has the speed but he doesn't have SM reflexes to effectively attack the third on his weak spot
Third raikage is also said to have storm release which is quite a decent technique 
A is not winning against the dude who stalemated the hachibi


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## Veracity (Jan 20, 2014)

I recall Deva pain tanking a taijustu attack from  SM Naruto


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## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> ... this doesn't. How exactly are you so certain that Sage Naruto couldn't? We don't have a point of reference.



There are points of reference, if one is willing to look for them.

E.g.,

Pain Tendou withstood Sage Naruto's kick twice.

Pain Tendou is not as durable as Susano'o (safe assumption, though also demonstrable if you're willing to go a bit further).

Ergo, Susano'o withstands it with no problem.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jan 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Pain Tendou withstood Sage Naruto's kick twice.
> 
> Pain Tendou is not as durable as Susano'o (safe assumption, though also demonstrable if you're willing to go a bit further).



Look a bit deeper.

The Fourth Raikage only managed to damage Sasuke's Susano'o, and nothing else but its ribcage, in fact. What durability feats does that stage have? Virtually nothing, unless you're willing to include the one where it was actually *shattered* (partially) by Liger Bomb, so it's a bit contradictory to label that as a solid tanking feat.

Meanwhile, read my post earlier in the thread, replying to DaVizWiz. Deva Path is definitely not a slouch in the durability department; the fact that Sage Naruto actually had him reeling and stunned from his second kick, whereas he recovered relatively quickly from his *multi*-kilometer trip to the Konoha Rushmore, speaks volumes about how physically powerful the former is.

Don't forget, also, that Sage Jiraiya effortlessly shrugged off, unscratched, an impact that was deeper/wider than what Liger Bomb (the technique that damaged Sasuke's ribcage, yes) yielded. I doubt the likes of the someone like Sage Naruto couldn't hurt him with a physical blow.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 20, 2014)

Sandaime Raikage wins handily. A simply can't _damage_ him. Its arguable that the Sandaime Raikage can even outlast A as well. While A does have the speed advantage (though it shouldn't be that great considering their considerable chakra levels), the Sandaime beats his son in _every. Other. Area._ Strength, Sandaime was destroying multi-story size rock pillars with simple punches and knocking jonin and chunin caliber shinobi away with a flick of his wrists. Durability, Sandaime no-selled a Futon: Rasenshuriken. Ninjutsu, Jigoku trumps everything A's shown. 

And BS Nikushimi. Sage Mode Naruto has far superior strength feats to A and his dad. His strength never being tested against a Susano'o does not mean it can't do damage against Susano'o. A and the Sandaime have no strength feats which even approach Sage Mode Naruto's level. Thus, they are effectively weaker in that area.


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## Turrin (Jan 20, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> > Most of those feats are with Nukite leading his charge. When you have the most powerful piercing technique in the manga it's not hard to push through walls. The only real strength feat presented was hitting the rubber ball, and forcing it to penetrate a stone structure. I could counteract that argument with one single point- he could not even partially damage rubber with his strength.
> 
> 
> All a piercing attack does is pierce or slice, we clearly see other strength feats present there. As for not breaking through the rubber wall, considering his fist casually destroyed a massive rock structure it's not that the first is weak it's that the rubber is that strong. I mean when has Ei sent anyone flying that far from his punch?
> ...


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 20, 2014)

A would win, he is faster then his father, much faster. And has quiet the attack and durability himself. Long fight though.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sandaime Raikage wins handily. A simply can't _damage_ him. Its arguable that the Sandaime Raikage can even outlast A as well. While A does have the speed advantage (though it shouldn't be that great considering their considerable chakra levels), the Sandaime beats his son in _every. Other. Area._ Strength, Sandaime was destroying multi-story size rock pillars with simple punches and knocking jonin and chunin caliber shinobi away with a flick of his wrists. Durability, Sandaime no-selled a Futon: Rasenshuriken. Ninjutsu, Jigoku trumps everything A's shown.



Knocking away Jonin and Chuunin with a flick of the wrist is something Itachi could do when he was 12. I don't think that's much to brag about for a Taijutsu-oriented shinobi like the Raikage.



> And BS Nikushimi. Sage Mode Naruto has far superior strength feats to A and his dad.



Like I said, better feats doesn't mean he's better--it just means he has better showings.

Both Raikage are blatantly more powerful, as evidenced by the fact that they can physically damage Bijuu and Susano'o and the fact that they are Bijuu-level themselves. V2 Killer B ripped Kisame's chest open through Samehada with a Lariat, and that's the kind of power the 3rd would've been facing in his duel with the Hachibi.



> His strength never being tested against a Susano'o does not mean it can't do damage against Susano'o.



There are ways to prove that he can or can't by transference. For example, I brought up Pain Tendou; Tendou took direct hits from Sage Naruto twice without being crippled or broken open.



> A and the Sandaime have no strength feats which even approach Sage Mode Naruto's level. Thus, they are effectively weaker in that area.



Except the 4th can match V1 Killer B, whose physical destructive capacity makes Sage Naruto look completely impotent. The 4th can also damage Susano'o with physical strikes, which is something Sage Naruto realistically couldn't do in a million years if he couldn't even kick through Pain.

And Sage Naruto used Rasengan to deflect the 3rd's Nukite, so evidently just grabbing and pushing it wasn't enough. I'd really like to see him try overpowering the guy who wrestled the Hachibi with his bare hands--I dearly would.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Look a bit deeper.
> 
> The Fourth Raikage only managed to damage Sasuke's Susano'o, and nothing else but its ribcage, in fact. What durability feats does that stage have? Virtually nothing, unless you're willing to include the one where it was actually *shattered* (partially) by Liger Bomb, so it's a bit contradictory to label that as a solid tanking feat.
> 
> ...



Well Sasuke's ribcage Susano'o snapped a kunai tip. I very much doubt Pain Tendou could do that through passive tanking.

Allowing Sasuke to survive the Raikage's karate chop also gives it a better durability feat than the Hachibi's horn, which withstood its Bijuudama within the blast radius.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Knocking away Jonin and Chuunin with a flick of the wrist is something Itachi could do when he was 12. I don't think that's much to brag about for a Taijutsu-oriented shinobi like the Raikage.


Itachi never sent Jonin and Chunin caliber shinobi flying with a fucking _flick of the wrist._ I know you like overplaying Itachi or A but come the fuck on.




> Like I said, better feats doesn't mean he's better--it just means he has better showings.


That usually means that if one character can do this, but the other can't, said character is weaker than the fist. A and the Sandaime Raikage have no strength feats which even APPROACH Sage Mode Naruto's. Thus, they're weaker, no if's, an's or buts about it.


> Both Raikage are blatantly more powerful, as evidenced by the fact that they can physically damage Bijuu and Susano'o.


They can cause superficial damage on Biju and barely dent a Susano'o Ribcage. Sasuke's Susano'o Ribcage would have been wrecked by the strength Naruto was throwing around in Sage Mode. Hell Sage Mode Naruto could knock the wind out of Kurama by tossing him, that's something far higher than any Raikage has done. I know you love downplaying for A and the Sandaime, but this is fucking ridiculous. 




> There are ways to prove that he can or can't by transference. For example, I brought up Pain Tendou; Tendou took direct hits from Sage Naruto twice without being crippled.


Deva Path could survive a redirected Shinra Tensei that was at least strong enough to send three 100 meter tall, thousands of ton toads flying for kilometers without even getting damaged. From the feats A and the Sandaime displayed, they'd have been unable to damage him too.




> Except the 4th can match V1 Killer B, whose physical destructive capacity makes Sage Naruto look completely impotent. The 4th can also damage Susano'o with physical strikes, which is something Sage Naruto realistically couldn't do in a million years if he couldn't even kick through Pain.


V1 Killer Bee has shown inferior strength to Sage Mode Naruto. He blasted a small plateau apart, Naruto tossed a multi-thousand ton rhino into the stratosphere, the latter feat shows far more power. And again, Sasuke's weak ass ribcage Susano'o being damaged by A doesn't make A stronger. He has inferior strength feats. Flat out. A was also unable to damage Madara's stronger Susano'o ribcage, or any of the higher states alone. 

A's strength is inferior from both feats and portrayal.


> And Sage Naruto used Rasengan to deflect the 3rd's Nukite, so evidently just grabbing and pushing it wasn't enough. I'd really like to see him try overpowering the guy who wrestled the Hachibi with his bare hands--I dearly would.


He was wrestling and outmuscling Kurama so it shouldn't be much of a deal. The Rasengan dealt explosive damage which turned the Jigoku back on the Sandaime, that's it.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jan 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Well Sasuke's ribcage Susano'o snapped a kunai tip. I very much doubt Pain Tendou could do that through passive tanking.



That's cool. Unfortunately, you've provided zero evidence for your 'reasoning' (if you can even call it that), so your statement was but a tad worthless.



> Allowing Sasuke to survive the Raikage's karate chop also gives it a better durability feat than the Hachibi's horn, which withstood its Bijuudama within the blast radius.



Excuse me? The Susano'o ribcage was shattered to pieces by Raikage's Horizontal Chop, the horn of Eight-Tails' was sliced through. Bottom line is, both were breached by the Raikage's attack. How does that grant either an edge in durability?

Furthermore, the Raikage's chop could have simply missed, seeing as it didn't even look like it actually struck Sasuke (since the hand is past the latter's face).


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## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi never sent Jonin and Chunin caliber shinobi flying with a fucking _flick of the wrist._ I know you like overplaying Itachi or A but come the fuck on.



could have simply missed

Itachi can impart enough force through throwing over his shoulder to send two people flying back. Naruto did the same thing in Itachi's finger Genjutsu when he hit the Itachi clones with kunai. Throwing average human weight around is a feat most genin can replicate rather casually; any Jonin worth his salt can make it look easy with the simplest of gestures. Jiraiya did it to kid Naruto with his _finger_.

So you can stop pretending like A can't do it practically by farting.



> That usually means that if one character can do this, but the other can't, said character is weaker than the fist.



Except not having the feat doesn't mean they can't perform it.



> A and the Sandaime Raikage have no strength feats which even APPROACH Sage Mode Naruto's. Thus, they're weaker, no if's, an's or buts about it.



Chopping through Susano'o when Naruto can't even kick through a Pain is a huge if/and/but.

Feats don't supersede powerscaling.



> They can cause superficial damage on Biju and barely dent a Susano'o Ribcage. Sasuke's Susano'o Ribcage would have been wrecked by the strength Naruto was throwing around in Sage Mode. Hell Sage Mode Naruto could knock the wind out of Kurama by tossing him, that's something far higher than any Raikage has done. I know you love downplaying for A and the Sandaime, but this is fucking ridiculous.



Um, that's all nice and such, but you still haven't really reconciled the whole "Pain took hits from Sage Naruto and was relatively okay" problem. That does not suggest that Naruto would be "wrecking" Susano'o any time soon.



> Deva Path could survive a redirected Shinra Tensei that was at least strong enough to send three 100 meter tall, thousands of ton toads flying for kilometers without even getting damaged. From the feats A and the Sandaime displayed, they'd have been unable to damage him too.



Oh lol.

And here I was, thinking you wouldn't actually go there. Silly me, I guess.

So Pain Tendou getting deactivated by a single Rasengan is more durable than the 3rd Raikage, who outright tanked FRS and whose Nukite can pierce his own body? Or even the 4th, who tanked Chidori and cut his own arm off.

Top. Fucking. Lel.


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 20, 2014)

A doesn't know how to beat 3rd raikage


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## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> That's cool. Unfortunately, you've provided zero evidence for your 'reasoning' (if you can even call it that), so your statement was but a tad worthless.



Uh, bro, read the part of the manga where Yahiko died. 



> Excuse me? The Susano'o ribcage was shattered to pieces by Raikage's Horizontal Chop, the horn of Eight-Tails' was sliced through. Bottom line is, both were breached by the Raikage's attack. How does that grant either an edge in durability?
> 
> Furthermore, the Raikage's chop could have simply missed, seeing as it didn't even look like it actually struck Sasuke (since the hand is past the latter's face).



It's a better durability feat because the chop went ALL THE WAY through the horn but stopped half-way through Susano'o at Sasuke's neck.

Unless Sasuke's neck is more durable than Susano'o, I rest my case.

As for "missing" Susano'o, I don't see how that's possible; even if it didn't hit the ribs, it still would've had to go through the chakra aura around/between them.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> could have simply missed
> 
> Itachi can impart enough force through throwing over his shoulder to send two people flying back. Naruto did the same thing in Itachi's finger Genjutsu when he hit the Itachi clones with kunai. Throwing average human weight around is a feat most genin can replicate rather casually; any Jonin worth his salt can make it look easy with the simplest of gestures. Jiraiya did it to kid Naruto with his _finger_.
> 
> So you can stop pretending like A can't do it practically by farting.


...destroying two clones with a kunai in the stomach doesn't equate to casually tossing several people away with a flick of the wrist. And the clones were already flying at him. 




> Except not having the feat doesn't mean they can't perform it.


If they've shown consistent lesser feats though, it does mean that.




> Chopping through Susano'o when Naruto can't even kick through a Pain is a huge if/and/but.
> 
> Feats don't supersede powerscaling.


Chopping through a extremely weak Susano'o in its _first stage_ doesn't equate to someone who could survive the force of an attack which sent him flying kilometers. 




> Um, that's all nice and such, but you still haven't really reconciled the whole "Pain took hits from Sage Naruto and was relatively okay" problem. That does not suggest that Naruto would be "wrecking" Susano'o any time soon.


Pain simply has _superior feats_ to Sasuke's weakass Ribcage Susano'o. 




> Oh lol.
> 
> And here I was, thinking you wouldn't actually go there. Silly me, I guess.
> 
> ...


Ignore the fact that Deva Path _was practically out of power when the Rasengan hit._ Ignore the fact that the Rasengan deals _internal damage_. A base Rasengan knocking out a Deva Path which could barely stand doesn't make Deva Path weaker than Susano'o especially from its tanking feats.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jan 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Uh, bro, read the part of the manga where Yahiko died.



You think Pains are only as durable as they were when they were alive? What are you smoking? Do you seriously think Human Path, as a live ninja (and fodder too, by the lack of mention), could have taken Sage Jiraiya's kick to the eyes, or have enough physical strength to actually block it?

Do you seriously think Yahiko could have taken a Shinra Tensei powerful enough to render an explosion* half the height* of the Konoha Monument? That's already a Kage-level feat in sheer physicality.

Most Pains have physical feats that are far beyond than what's expected of nameless fodder.



> It's a better durability feat because the chop went ALL THE WAY through the horn but stopped half-way through Susano'o at Sasuke's neck.
> 
> Unless Sasuke's neck is more durable than Susano'o, I rest my case.



Sasuke's neck didn't have to be _necessarily_ hit by Raikage's hand. Look at the scan again. We see Raikage's hand AT Sasuke's hand, but that's in the *foreground*. The karate chop could have had enough force to break through the ribcage, but only miss by an inch of Sasuke's neck, enough to send him flying.

Is that not possible?

Furthermore, I'm going to reiterate to you my case: We know Sasuke's Susano'o ribcage and Sage Jiraiya had essentially the exact same test of durability; both were slammed into concrete at incredible speeds, with incredible force. Difference is, Sage Jiraiya underwent a much stronger one, given by the sizes of the crater yielded by the Yak. The Liger Bomb crater was miniscule in comparison, especially in regards to depth.

Another difference: Sage Jiraiya actually tanked it. The ribcage snapped. And I'll say again: I highly doubt Sage Naruto, a person hyped to be above Sage Jiraiya, couldn't hurt/damage his predecessor with physical blows. Hence, it's reasonable, if not likely, that he can damage Susano'o as well.



> As for "missing" Susano'o, I don't see how that's possible; even if it didn't hit the ribs, it still would've had to go through the chakra aura around/between them.



I never said it missed Susano'o. Read my post.


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## Kai (Jan 20, 2014)

This fight would last hours if not a day of straight brawling and body slamming.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 20, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Pain simply has _superior feats_ to Sasuke's weakass Ribcage Susano'o.


You think Deva Path can survive Liger Bomb? Seriously?

On the actual match: I think 4th is faster and a bit more skilled in taijutsu. Last part is just my impression not backed up by anything solid. 3rd looked like more ninjutsu-oriented fighter(Nukite, Black Lightning) and while he also should be very skilled in normal taijutsu - I don't think he is better than his actual taijutsu-specialized son. At least he shouldn't be. Would be sad if A's only advantage over his father is speed.

I have my doubts regarding A's intelligence. Even with knowledge I don't think he has what it takes to come up with Nukite-hijack. His mindset is also ill-suited for that. He isn't going to resort to tricks without trying his best moves over and over again. Dude is stubborn and pretty proud of his power.
Moreover - living IC Sandaime won't be spamming 1-finger Nukite. Especially if he retained knowledge of his ET fight. He doesn't need it to beat his son. Skill-wise though - A with both arms should be able to replicate Nukite-hijack imo. 

3rd is a lot more durable, with better stamina, better ninjutsu, equal strength and close levels of speed and taijutsu. Still don't know why Kishi made him so much more impressive than his son. 4th needs conditions and knowledge specifically tailored for nukite-hijack and it would still be very close and debatable fight.


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## Turrin (Jan 21, 2014)

alex payne said:


> You think Deva Path can survive Liger Bomb? Seriously?
> .


Quite honestly if Deva Path's can get back up w/o any severe injury from this:
Liger Bomb
Liger Bomb

I don't really see him not being able to tank Liager Bomb. Additionally Deva also magically tanked a partial Bijuu Bomb hit, which to this day I don't fully understand


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## Alex Payne (Jan 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Quite honestly if Deva Path's can get back up w/o any severe injury from this:
> Liger Bomb
> Liger Bomb



Eh, what so impressive about it? Raikage smacks people that hard it destroys the terrain. He uses people to cause that damage, transferring all that force through the unlucky enemy. Shinra Tensei works less effective. Surrounding damage from Deva hitting the wall was a lot less impressive than Liger Bomb. 



Turrin said:


> I don't really see him not being able to tank Liager Bomb. Additionally Deva also magically tanked a partial Bijuu Bomb hit, which to this day I don't fully understand


 Partial bijudama, not a direct hit. Still, Kishi went a bit overboard with that, I agree.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 21, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...destroying two clones with a kunai in the stomach doesn't equate to casually tossing several people away with a flick of the wrist.



It pretty much does, since Kage Bunshin create flesh-and-blood copies of the original; they supposedly weigh as much as a real person.



> And the clones were already flying at him.



Look at it again; Itachi's kunai made them fly BACK.



> If they've shown consistent lesser feats though, it does mean that.



Depends on what you qualify as a "lesser feat." The Raikage don't have any throwing feats as impressive as the rhino toss, but busting through Susano'o is better than anything Naruto's done.



> Chopping through a extremely weak Susano'o in its _first stage_ doesn't equate to someone who could survive the force of an attack which sent him flying kilometers.



That "extremely weak" Susano'o withstood the attack better than the Hachibi's horn, which wasn't really fazed by Bijuudama. Compared to that, a deflected Shinra Tensei is nothing--I mean, Naruto as a V2 Jinchuuriki deflected it, too.



> Pain simply has _superior feats_ to Sasuke's weakass Ribcage Susano'o.



Except he doesn't. Yahiko was killed with a kunai, and those break against Susano'o. In addition, I don't see Pain withstanding any Bijuudama.

Come on, man. Don't go down this road. You are comparing the passive durability of a Kakashi-level physical fighter (Pain Tendou) to the ultimate defensive Jutsu of a Mangekyou Sharingan user (Susano'o). Even if it is a lesser stage, no human in the Narutoverse has tougher flesh, except _maybe_ the 3rd Raikage.



> Ignore the fact that Deva Path _was practically out of power when the Rasengan hit._



If it was as simple as running out of power, why did Naruto even need to hit him with the Rasengan? Waiting a few seconds would've yielded the same result, yeah? No, it's clear the Rasengan damaged Pain enough to put him down; it wasn't just low power. Just like it took out the other Pains, including Shuradou--who makes Tendou look like a roodie poo candy-ass.

Naruto had to beat the 5-second cooldown in order to hit Tendou in the first place, which implies that it was still capable of using Shinra Tensei. Nagato still had enough chakra to bring back the whole God damn village. Pain was not THAT low on power; Naruto just knocked him the fuck out. It would've been the same even if Tendou was at 100%.



> Ignore the fact that the Rasengan deals _internal damage_.



It has to go through the external medium to deal internal damage. This is the same reason the Kyuubi's fucking spleen didn't explode from the 25-COR barrage. This is also why Naruto can't just run up to a Susano'o user and kill them with a normal Rasengan. It doesn't do internal damage if it doesn't penetrate in the first place.



> A base Rasengan knocking out a Deva Path which could barely stand doesn't make Deva Path weaker than Susano'o especially from its tanking feats.



It pretty much does, since being tired doesn't decrease a person's durability.



ATastyMuffin said:


> You think Pains are only as durable as they were when they were alive?



Sure, why not? It's the same body, unless I missed a detail somewhere.



> What are you smoking?



Cute.

Try to stay focused.



> Do you seriously think Human Path, as a live ninja (and fodder too, by the lack of mention), could have taken Sage Jiraiya's kick to the eyes, or have enough physical strength to actually block it?



Sure. Why not?

We know nothing about the Pains while they were alive, and they were evidently somewhat important if Nagato went to the trouble of selecting them for his Pain Rikudou. Jiraiya knew who they all were, too.



> Do you seriously think Yahiko could have taken a Shinra Tensei powerful enough to render an explosion* half the height* of the Konoha Monument? That's already a Kage-level feat in sheer physicality.



Kakashi survived two Shinra Tensei. So are you asking me if I seriously think Yahiko is about Kakashi-level in terms of physical ability? Because that's what the manga showed, so yes, that's what I think.



> Most Pains have physical feats that are far beyond than what's expected of nameless fodder.



That's because they aren't nameless fodder.



> Sasuke's neck didn't have to be _necessarily_ hit by Raikage's hand. Look at the scan again. We see Raikage's hand AT Sasuke's hand, but that's in the *foreground*. The karate chop could have had enough force to break through the ribcage, but only miss by an inch of Sasuke's neck, enough to send him flying.
> 
> Is that not possible?



Bro, anything's possible. But I would seriously have to question then why Sasuke's neck is bent all herp the fucking derp like that.



> Furthermore, I'm going to reiterate to you my case: We know Sasuke's Susano'o ribcage and Sage Jiraiya had essentially the exact same test of durability; both were slammed into concrete at incredible speeds, with incredible force. Difference is, Sage Jiraiya underwent a much stronger one, given by the sizes of the crater yielded by the Yak. The Liger Bomb crater was miniscule in comparison, especially in regards to depth.
> 
> Another difference: Sage Jiraiya actually tanked it. The ribcage snapped. And I'll say again: I highly doubt Sage Naruto, a person hyped to be above Sage Jiraiya, couldn't hurt/damage his predecessor with physical blows. Hence, it's reasonable, if not likely, that he can damage Susano'o as well.



Oh, that. Well the ram summon is about as big as the hole it smashed open. In contrast, the crater generated by the Raikage's Liger Bomb was many dozens of times larger than the cross-sectional area at the point of contact (which was basically Sasuke's head and shoulders). Scale it up to the same size and, pound-for-pound, the Raikage's attack is hands-down superior.



> I never said it missed Susano'o. Read my post.



I never said you said it missed Susano'o. You did already clarify it for me, though.

Incidentally, even if the Raikage totally missed Sasuke, my point that his attack failed to cut all the way through Susano'o stands.



Turrin said:


> Quite honestly if Deva Path's can get back up w/o any severe injury from this:
> Gari and Pakura
> Gari and Pakura
> 
> I don't really see him not being able to tank Liager Bomb.



Tendou would get turned to jelly by a Liger Bomb. The Raikage punched THROUGH Jugo, for God's sake.



> Additionally Deva also magically tanked a partial Bijuu Bomb hit, which to this day I don't fully understand



The Bijuudama missed. Look at the edge of the Bijuudama crater and look at where Tendou impacted at the base of the Chou Shinra Tensei crater--they're about a hundred feet apart. Tendou wasn't even inside the blast radius.

Although it's quite impressive that Tendou survived such close proximity to it, I'll grant you.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> It pretty much does, since Kage Bunshin create flesh-and-blood copies of the original; they supposedly weigh as much as a real person.


Fly back a few feet vs fly back several meters. The difference is obvious.




> Look at it again; Itachi's kunai made them fly BACK.


Again, a few feet (like being shot) vs several meters into the air. 




> Depends on what you qualify as a "lesser feat." The Raikage don't have any throwing feats as impressive as the rhino toss, but busting through Susano'o is better than anything Naruto's done.


You do realize that could easily not be a _strength feat_ that A has, rather a technique? Naruto's strength feats are so far and above A's, arguing A's even in the same league is laughable. Someone who can toss the boss rhino, weighing several thousand tons, could demolish the same level of Susano'o that A went up against with pure strength. Hell we even see a superior ribcage Susano'o go up against someone who has strength approaching Sage Mode Naruto's, Tsunade's, and she bashed through it all day with strength confirmed to be superior to A's.




> That "extremely weak" Susano'o withstood the attack better than the Hachibi's horn, which wasn't really fazed by Bijuudama. Compared to that, a deflected Shinra Tensei is nothing--I mean, Naruto as a V2 Jinchuuriki deflected it, too.




You really love harping and exaggerating this Nikushimi. Sasuke's Susano'o ribcage is canonically the weakest shown from the durability feats it has gotten. Your A>B>C logic here is not only stupid, but downright lying. First off, it was a _vertical oppression_ which A used to cut the horn (which isn't really crucial to Gyuki in the first place) he used a HORIZONTAL OPPRESSION, without even getting as much air as he did for the vertical one, on Sasuke's Susano'o. Two different techniques. Not only that, its more of a cutting, NOT a strength feat to boot. And finally V2 Jinchuriki Six Tail Naruto _has strength feats that make A's look weak_, hell even Four Tail Naruto makes A's strength feats look pathetic!


> Except he doesn't. Yahiko was killed with a kunai, and those break against Susano'o. In addition, I don't see Pain withstanding any Bijuudama.


Yahiko isn't Deva Path. Deva Path is a puppet of Nagato controlled through chakra and is far superior to Yahiko alone. All the Pain bodies are enhanced greatly to the point where they're practically superior in every single way. Hell even Animal Path could _survive being dunked in acid_. Deva Path survived point blank Naruto's KN6 Bijudama explosion, the reflected Shinra Tensei (again, strong enough to toss three boss toads into the next zip code) and contend with the sheer physical strength from two Sage Mode fighters.


> Come on, man. Don't go down this road. You are comparing the passive durability of a Kakashi-level physical fighter (Pain Tendou) to the ultimate defensive Jutsu of a Mangekyou Sharingan user (Susano'o). Even if it is a lesser stage, no human in the Narutoverse has tougher flesh, except _maybe_ the 3rd Raikage.


First off...Kakashi level physical fighter? Did you miss Deva effortlessly dismantling him? Second, Deva's feats speak for themselves. He isn't 'pure human' anymore, Deva Path is an enhanced body controlled through chakra. 




> If it was as simple as running out of power, why did Naruto even need to hit him with the Rasengan? Waiting a few seconds would've yielded the same result, yeah? No, it's clear the Rasengan damaged Pain enough to put him down; it wasn't just low power. Just like it took out the other Pains, including Shuradou--who makes Tendou look like a roodie poo candy-ass.


Deva's power was running out. It dropped to its knees, had expended a massive amount of the chakra that Nagato had given it, but still had enough power for another Shinra Tensei after. 

And it took a Senjutsu powered Rasengan to put down Asura path.


> Naruto had to beat the 5-second cooldown in order to hit Tendou in the first place, which implies that it was still capable of using Shinra Tensei. Nagato still had enough chakra to bring back the whole God damn village. Pain was not THAT low on power; Naruto just knocked him the fuck out. It would've been the same even if Tendou was at 100%.


Nagato was commenting on how much power he had expended and the path _fricking dropped to one knee_. It was panting. It was barely able to STAND. Nagato couldn't maintain the jutsu for that much longer. He was bleeding from the nose from the Chibaku Tensei remember? Deva itself was almost out of power and Nagato couldn't maintain him for much longer. Hence why the Rasengan defeated him.




> It has to go through the external medium to deal internal damage. This is the same reason the Kyuubi's fucking spleen didn't explode from the 25-COR barrage. This is also why Naruto can't just run up to a Susano'o user and kill them with a normal Rasengan. It doesn't do internal damage if it doesn't penetrate in the first place.


Don't you remember the Chidori vs Rasengan comparison in part one? Chidori pierced and seemed to do a lot of external damage. Rasengan did a minimal amount of damage...until we see from behind the damage blows out the back. 




> It pretty much does, since being tired doesn't decrease a person's durability.


It kind of does. Especially if said person requires an external chakra source.

Though knowing how you'll lie and twist things, claim Pain bodies are the same as normal humans...


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## BroKage (Jan 21, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Neither did Naruto.


3rd Raikage was being controlled by someone who had no knowledge of what actually caused his scar at the time. The 3rd Raikage himself would probably be intelligent enough to try to avoid stabbing himself again.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 21, 2014)

What ? Do people really think A  doesn't hit harder than SM Naruto ? 
Oh jeez. I guess SM Naruto has taken the crown of "the most overrated character in BD" from Minato & Kakashi 




ATastyMuffin said:


> That's cool. Unfortunately, you've provided zero evidence for your 'reasoning' (if you can even call it that), so your statement was but a tad worthless.



Gari and Pakura

Also : 

Gari and Pakura

Thats not Deva but then there hasn't been any distinction between the individual bodies of Pain.


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## Ersa (Jan 21, 2014)

If SM Naruto is Tsunade's superior in striking strength he should be able to replicate this feat?

I don't think equating lifting strength to striking strength in this manga works. SM Naruto is much stronger at lifting but not at striking. SM Naruto needs Rasengan variants to bust Susanoo.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 21, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> If SM Naruto is Tsunade's superior in striking strength he should be able to replicate this feat?
> 
> I don't think equating lifting strength to striking strength in this manga works. SM Naruto is much stronger at lifting but not at striking. SM Naruto needs Rasengan variants to bust Susanoo.



We don't even know if thats the case. 

Naruto has lifting feats.

Other strong shinobi don't have any lifting feats. We automatically are just assuming Naruto is better in that regard because he is the only one with them.

But people with superior striking power should have at least comparable body strength to Naruto.


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## Turrin (Jan 21, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Eh, what so impressive about it? Raikage smacks people that hard it destroys the terrain. He uses people to cause that damage, transferring all that force through the unlucky enemy. Shinra Tensei works less effective. Surrounding damage from Deva hitting the wall was a lot less impressive than Liger Bomb.
> 
> Partial bijudama, not a direct hit. Still, Kishi went a bit overboard with that, I agree.


Ei has never hit someone w/ so much force that they go flying that far and after hitting a solid rock wall cliff create such an explosion that the explosion starts to reach the faces on Hokage mountain. In comparison when Ei hits B dead on their is nowhere near that force:
Surrounding damage

Even when Ei hits a similar rock wall w/ his fastest attack their is no where near the force of that Deva slammed into a rock wall:
Surrounding damage

Nether is Liager Bomb for that matter, again the explosion went up to the faces of the kage mountain, it's absolutely a ridiculous amount of force.

So based on getting up w/ zero injury from that feat, I think it's pretty fair to say he would tank Liager Bomb. I don't know if Kishi intended Deva to be more durable than Rib Cage Susano'o (maybe it's because Deva is a corpse), or it's just products of the plot like Deva tanking a partial Bijuu Bomb, Deva has tanked higher level attacks than Liager.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 21, 2014)

Using generic base Raikage's tackle in comparison to one of strongest shown ST to prove that Raikage's named attack is weaker than said ST.

Classic Turrin. 

That damage wasn't caused by Deva hitting that wall. Shinra Tensei's AoE caused that damage.

Here is some food for thought. This is Kid Sasuke kicking Bear. This is grown up Sasuke kicking Killer B. Raikage _casually_ sending his Bro flying away a great distance like that kinda works against you imo. 

You really think that if Raikage wanted to replicate Deva's glorious fly he wouldn't be able to? Same Raikage who can smack Full Form Hachibi like that? Guy who can overpower Hachibi can't outperform Shinra Tensei that failed against a mere V2?

Liger Bomb one-shots every Path with possible exception of Asura.


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## Turrin (Jan 21, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Using generic base Raikage's tackle in comparison to one of strongest shown ST to prove that Raikage's named attack is weaker than said ST.


Ei's attacks increase in power based on their speed, which is why he said he needed to be faster to break Madara's Susano'o. I just showed you Ei's fastest attack and thus one of his strongest; Killer B even says he's going all out. 



> That damage wasn't caused by Deva hitting that wall. Shinra Tensei's AoE caused that damage.


Let's avoid being intellectually dishonest here. I can't imagine you actually think this when the explosion happens exactly at the same moment Deva hits the rock wall. Plus even if ST caused the explosion that still means the same force was applied to Deva's body and he was smashed into the rock wall w/, which is far greater force than anything Ei has exerted into his blows.



> Here is some food for thought. This is Kid Sasuke kicking Bear. This is grown up Sasuke kicking Killer B. Raikage casually sending his Bro flying away a great distance like that kinda works against you imo.


I'm suppose to be impressed by KOing a fodder bear. Deva's Shinra Tensei pack enough force that it sent 3 Boss Toads flying miles away and broke every bone in their body, and I can't imagine the ST that Deva used against Kyuubi was much less than that.



> You really think that if Raikage wanted to replicate Deva's glorious fly he wouldn't be able to? Same Raikage who can smack Full Form Hachibi like that? Guy who can overpower Hachibi can't outperform Shinra Tensei that failed against a mere V2?


Yeah I don't think he could. You show me where Ei has the feats of being able to send a Boss summon flying miles away and shattering every bone on their body, w/ the force of his blow. Heck as I demonstrated Ei going all out did less damage from a direct blow to a rock cliff, than Deva being sent careening into it cliff. 

Also again let's not be intellectually dishonest, the panel you showed in now way demonstrates Ei overpowering Hachibi. Hachibi was being held down by a number of other shinobi, they are the ones clashing w/ the Hachibi's strength. Ei simply showed enough strength to cut Hachibi's horn when also aided by the piercing qualities of Raiton. Considering we have nothing else to compare this feat to and we've seen other parts of the Hachibi cut rather casually like it's Tails; I don't see how this anywhere near the magnitude of force exerted by Deva's higher end ST. 



> Liger Bomb one-shots every Path with possible exception of Asura.


So Liger Bomb > than being hit by an ST which clearly demonstrated more force being exerted on the target than Liager bomb, and than right after tanking a partial Bijuu Bomb hit. Sorry, but there is absolutely no evidence supporting that assertion. 

Deva Paths, Human Path, and Asura Path are not going down to a single liger bomb given their displays of tanking ability; even the original Animal Path is somewhat debatable as he tanked a SM J-man's kick to the throat 

I'm not saying they'd be totally fine afterwards, but we can't just ignore that they have tanked much worse attacks and simply say Liger Bomb kills them, because Liger Bomb did some relatively minor damage to the weakest Susano'o. Deva's high end STs & Senjutsu users attacks would do more damage than Liger Bomb to Stage 1 Susano'o.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 21, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Fly back a few feet vs fly back several meters. The difference is obvious.



Now you're moving the goal post; you went from saying "He can't do it" to "Well, he can only do it THIS much."

The point is, Itachi CAN do it, and rather casually. The 4th Raikage is on a whole other level, so it's like swatting balloons for him.



> Again, a few feet (like being shot) vs several meters into the air.



Try to stay focused: You're comparing Itachi's throwing force to the 3rd Raikage's direct Taijutsu. Incidentally, I don't recall seeing you provide actual manga evidence of the Raikage knocking fodder away with just the movement of his wrist. I don't doubt that he can, but it wouldn't kill you to be fair.



> You do realize that could easily not be a _strength feat_ that A has, rather a technique?



Sure. But A's technique is a karate chop. He's a Nin-Taijutsu specialist; what he can do with his hand, he can replicate with other parts of his body (with varying success).



> Naruto's strength feats are so far and above A's, arguing A's even in the same league is laughable.



Naruto has literally one strength feat that _looks_ better on paper than any of the Raikage's. That doesn't mean he's stronger. The 4th Raikage was able to kill KCM Naruto with a punch. Sage Naruto was unable to simply hold the 3rd down. These guys are clearly too strong for Sage Mode users, which is to be expected of those compared to Bijuu.

Hell, Jugo is basically a Sage Mode user and look what the 4th did to him.



> Someone who can toss the boss rhino, weighing several thousand tons, could demolish the same level of Susano'o that A went up against with pure strength.



Then why did Naruto say he and Sasuke would kill each other? Seems like a dumb thing to say if he can just wreck Sasuke's best technique with Taijutsu. What you're saying doesn't add up.



> Hell we even see a superior ribcage Susano'o go up against someone who has strength approaching Sage Mode Naruto's, Tsunade's, and she bashed through it all day with strength confirmed to be superior to A's.



"Approaching"? No. Tsunade is far above Sage Mode Naruto's strength. She can split the damn ground with one finger when she's drunk. 

Sage Naruto is not as durable as Susano'o, either; if he took a punch from Tsunade, there would be nothing left. Pain Gakidou's punch was enough to stun him.

I guess next you'll be telling me that Gakidou and the other Pains can punch through Susano'o, right?



> You really love harping and exaggerating this Nikushimi. Sasuke's Susano'o ribcage is canonically the weakest shown from the durability feats it has gotten. Your A>B>C logic here is not only stupid, but downright lying. First off, it was a _vertical oppression_ which A used to cut the horn (which isn't really crucial to Gyuki in the first place) he used a HORIZONTAL OPPRESSION, without even getting as much air as he did for the vertical one, on Sasuke's Susano'o. Two different techniques.



So they're different because one's horizontal and one's vertical? You do realize that's only changing the direction of the same attack, right? How does that invalidate the comparison? 



> Not only that, its more of a cutting, NOT a strength feat to boot.



They go hand-in-hand when you're talking about a physical attack. It's the Raikage's power driving the attack, and I'll also point out that it didn't leave a cut on Sasuke's neck even though it hit him hard enough to send him to the ground--so it wasn't that sharp.



> And finally V2 Jinchuriki Six Tail Naruto _has strength feats that make A's look weak_, hell even Four Tail Naruto makes A's strength feats look pathetic!



Again, only due to artistic differences on-paper. Kisame was able to break out of Yamato's Mokuton, which 4-tailed Naruto couldn't do. Killer B and (by extension) the Raikage are comparable. That puts them quantitatively above 4-tailed V2 Naruto.

Strength aside, you're ignoring durability completely. Kakashi can cut through multiple V2 cloaks with his Raikiri chain, yet a single V2 Jinchuuriki deflected that Shinra Tensei, and you're saying this proves Tendou is more durable than Susano'o? Extended Raiton Jutsu  from Sasuke, a comparable ninja, proved totally ineffective against the 4th Raikage, who could chop off his own body parts but couldn't seem to get all the way through Susano'o to kill Sasuke.



> Yahiko isn't Deva Path. Deva Path is a puppet of Nagato controlled through chakra and is far superior to Yahiko alone. All the Pain bodies are enhanced greatly to the point where they're practically superior in every single way.



It's the same body, so what are you basing this on?



> Hell even Animal Path could _survive being dunked in acid_.



I'm pretty sure it didn't survive that.



> Deva Path survived point blank Naruto's KN6 Bijudama explosion,



Tendou was outside of the blast radius:

Pain Gakidou's punch was enough to stun him

Look at the panel in the top-right corner; Tendou actually jumped up to get into the Bijuudama crater when he was retreating.



> the reflected Shinra Tensei (again, strong enough to toss three boss toads into the next zip code)



Shinra Tensei vary in power. I trust you haven't forgotten that Kakashi survived three of them.

The Shinra Tensei Pain was hit with wasn't strong enough to send an anchored Jinchuuriki flying, so you can drop the whole "boss summon" spiel--it isn't transferable to this.



> and contend with the sheer physical strength from two Sage Mode fighters.



That's circular reasoning. You've been trying to prove the strength of Sage Mode in the first place; you can't just say Tendou and Sage Naruto are impressive for being able to fight each other without first establishing the abilities of one of them outside of the mutual comparison.



> First off...Kakashi level physical fighter? Did you miss Deva effortlessly dismantling him?



Comparable strength: Pain Gakidou's punch was enough to stun him
Comparable speed & skill: Pain Gakidou's punch was enough to stun him
Pain Gakidou's punch was enough to stun him

The only thing that remains is comparable durability, and I don't think that's in question because Yahiko was killed with a kunai and--even as Tendou--kept avoiding or negating attacks instead of just tanking them. Yahiko or any of the Pains were never stated to have special durability. And if Tendou was really more durable than Susano'o, Raikiri or a couple of Akimichis in meatball form would be no big deal. Frankly, I think you know you're BSing at this point; Tendou is not more durable than Susano'o--Tendou is a person (or a corpse of a person, rather)

Nagato sent in Shuradou to back Tendou up after Shinra Tensei had been used: a couple of Akimichis in meatball form

That's odd. A guy with greater durability than Sasuke's Raikage-tanking, magma-tanking Absolute Defense ought to be able to just stand there without using Shinra Tensei and just laugh at these fools as they fail to damage him. Instead, he fell back on Shinra Tensei to deflect their attacks and then Nagato sent in back-up.

I'm sure a Susano'o user would need to dodge or Shinra Tensei kunai, right?

Tendou even used Shinra Tensei to counter Hinata. I mean come the fuck on.



> Second, Deva's feats speak for themselves. He isn't 'pure human' anymore, Deva Path is an enhanced body controlled through chakra.



"Enhanced" how? It just looks to me like he's a Kakashi-level ninja Pain stuck some control rods into.

Just because Sage Naruto can toss a boss summon doesn't mean he's strong enough to kill Kakashi in one hit. Kakuzu punched down meter-thick iron gates and his surprise kick didn't even compromise Kakashi's performance (it sure compromised that giant tree, though). It's no surprise that a Kakashi-level ninja like Yahiko/Tendou can survive Sage Naruto's kick.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 21, 2014)

> Deva's power was running out. It dropped to its knees, had expended a massive amount of the chakra that Nagato had given it, but still had enough power for another Shinra Tensei after.



So then it didn't lose because it was out of power; it still had power left. Rasengan just damaged it too much. Just like the summoner or the reviver.



> And it took a Senjutsu powered Rasengan to put down Asura path.



But that's all it took. So much for these guys being more durable than Susano'o.



> Nagato was commenting on how much power he had expended and the path _fricking dropped to one knee_. It was panting. It was barely able to STAND. Nagato couldn't maintain the jutsu for that much longer. He was bleeding from the nose from the Chibaku Tensei remember? Deva itself was almost out of power and Nagato couldn't maintain him for much longer. Hence why the Rasengan defeated him.



If it was fatigue that killed Pain and not the Rasengan's damage, then why did Naruto even bother using the Rasengan instead of waiting for Pain to collapse on his own? 



> Don't you remember the Chidori vs Rasengan comparison in part one? Chidori pierced and seemed to do a lot of external damage. Rasengan did a minimal amount of damage...until we see from behind the damage blows out the back.



Rasengan pierced the water tank. Remember what FRS did to the 3rd Raikage? Nothing--because it didn't pierce through his flesh.



> It kind of does. Especially if said person requires an external chakra source.



Physical durability isn't dependent on chakra, no matter where it comes from. Yahiko's body doesn't turn to jelly when Nagato's connection is severed and it doesn't turn to steel when he's activating it. It's always the same material, whether it's moving around or just laying there like a normal corpse.

You really think the same weapon that killed Yahiko is just going to break if it hits the flesh of his corpse? Come on.



> Though knowing how you'll lie and twist things, claim Pain bodies are the same as normal humans...



They are the same as the were in life, and they clearly weren't normal humans in life, as evidenced by their exceptional feats and the fact that Jiraiya remembered them out of the countless shinobi he'd faced in his lifetime.

They are all around Kakashi-level in terms of physical stats--that includes durability. Kakashi can survive three Shinra Tensei, so it's not like this is inconsistent with Tendou's showings. It just proves that you've been exaggerating Sage Naruto's Taijutsu, which I think most people would've agreed upon the moment you said Tsunade was "approaching" his strength. Or maybe earlier, when you said he could physically punch open one of the greatest defensive Jutsu in the manga... I don't see how you can even say those things and believe them.



BroKage said:


> 3rd Raikage was being controlled by someone who had no knowledge of what actually caused his scar at the time. The 3rd Raikage himself would probably be intelligent enough to try to avoid stabbing himself again.



The 3rd Raikage? More intelligent than Kabuto?


----------



## Turrin (Jan 21, 2014)

LOL comparing Kakuzu to a Sage, you must be kidding me. He has a strength of 4 in DB III. That means Base Jiriaya is physically stronger than him let alone Sages. The level of intellectual dishonesty from Niku here is astonishing...oh wait it's Niku so it's not.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> LOL comparing Kakuzu to a Sage, you must be kidding me. He has a strength of 4 in DB III. That means Base Jiriaya is physically stronger than him let alone Sages. The level of intellectual dishonesty from Niku here is astonishing...oh wait it's Niku so it's not.



I never compared Kakuzu to a sage; I just pointed out that Kakuzu is really effing strong and Kakashi was able to survive his kick without lasting damage, so it's not really surprising that Tendou could survive a kick from a sage. Even though a sage is significantly stronger than Kakuzu, it's not like Kakashi is some lightweight with poor durability feats, which serves my comparison between him and Tendou.

But if you want to be obnoxious about it, I can make an Oonoki vs Pain thread and we can both have a good laugh.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 21, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I never compared Kakuzu to a sage; I just pointed out that Kakuzu is really effing strong and Kakashi was able to survive his kick without lasting damage, so it's not really surprising that Tendou could survive a kick from a sage. Even though a sage is significantly stronger than Kakuzu, it's not like Kakashi is some lightweight with poor durability feats, which serves my comparison between him and Tendou.
> 
> But if you want to be obnoxious about it, I can make an Oonoki vs Pain thread and we can both have a good laugh.


So you just used a false equivalency as Kakashi tanking the kick of someone who is much weaker than a Sage does in no way prove his ability to tank the kick of a Sage. Okay.

As for the Pain thing you can do whatever you want, because i'm sure even if you made the thread it would not be the same conditions w/ which I said Onoki has a chance at beating Pain, it would be some ridiculous 5m, no knowledge, etc... BS

But instead of making pointless BD threads why not ask people directly what is more ridiculous Onoki having a chance to beat Pain under favorable conditions, but otherwise being weaker; or Itachi beating all 9 Bijuu at the same time or insert other ridiculous Nikushimi nonsense.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So you just used a false equivalency as Kakashi tanking the kick of someone who is much weaker than a Sage does in no way prove his ability to tank the kick of a Sage. Okay.



That wasn't even a bloody sentence.



> As for the Pain thing you can do whatever you want, because i'm sure even if you made the thread it would not be the same conditions w/ which I said Onoki has a chance at beating Pain, it would be some ridiculous 5m, no knowledge, etc... BS



Ironically, those would be completely fair conditions, since they apply to both combatants...



> But instead of making pointless BD threads why not ask people directly what is more ridiculous Onoki having a chance to beat Pain under favorable conditions, but otherwise being weaker;



Oonoki's not beating Pain unless they're all deactivated. Let's just put it that way.



> or Itachi beating all 9 Bijuu at the same time or insert other ridiculous Nikushimi nonsense.



I said this before half the Bijuu even had feats. I no longer hold this belief.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 21, 2014)

> So you just used a false equivalency as Kakashi tanking the kick of someone who is much weaker than a Sage does in no way prove his ability to tank the kick of a Sage.



Yet another sig-worthy quote.


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## Turrin (Jan 21, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> That wasn't even a bloody sentence.
> .


I don't see how you can not understand my meaning.



> Ironically, those would be completely fair conditions, since they apply to both combatants


Fair conditions is how fights actually play out in the manga, but I digress, it doesn't matter whether you feel the conditions are fair or not, as when I said Onoki could beat Pain I was speaking towards very specific conditions, which those are not.



> Oonoki's not beating Pain unless they're all deactivated. Let's just put it that way.


The funny part is that the more you say it's impossible the more likely it is to be true, that's how far from the manga cannon your opinions have strayed as of late.



> I said this before half the Bijuu even had feats. I no longer hold this belief.


Doesn't make it any less ridiculous. But hey let's go w/ your latest brilliant comment about how Deidara would rape stomp Kitsuchi + Kakuzu (or was it Darui, ether way) at the same time.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jan 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Ei's attacks increase in power based on their speed, which is why he said he needed to be faster to break Madara's Susano'o. I just showed you Ei's fastest attack and thus one of his strongest; Killer B even says he's going all out.


 Raikage tackled Killer B without even having Raiton Shroud on. It wasn't his named attack. It wasn't even a proper punch.



Turrin said:


> Let's avoid being intellectually dishonest here. I can't imagine you actually think this when the explosion happens exactly at the same moment Deva hits the rock wall. Plus even if ST caused the explosion that still means the same force was applied to Deva's body and he was smashed into the rock wall w/, which is far greater force than anything Ei has exerted into his blows.


 Oh, my. AoE has no direct correlation with applied force. Things like Futon: Atsugai with greater AoE aren't as damaging to single target as Rasengan for example. Even though Atsugai is obviously more "powerful". I thought it is like basic physics.

Shinra Tensei was shown traveling and affecting things in its paths several times. See Deva vs TKB.




Turrin said:


> I'm suppose to be impressed by KOing a fodder bear. Deva's Shinra Tensei pack enough force that it sent 3 Boss Toads flying miles away and broke every bone in their body, and I can't imagine the ST that Deva used against Kyuubi was much less than that.


 Targets with massive size and weight, right. 




Turrin said:


> Yeah I don't think he could. You show me where Ei has the feats of being able to send a Boss summon flying miles away and shattering every bone on their body, w/ the force of his blow. Heck as I demonstrated Ei going all out did less damage from a direct blow to a rock cliff, than Deva being sent careening into it cliff.


 Applied force =\= AoE.



Turrin said:


> Also again let's not be intellectually dishonest, the panel you showed in now way demonstrates Ei overpowering Hachibi. Hachibi was being held down by a number of other shinobi, they are the ones clashing w/ the Hachibi's strength. Ei simply showed enough strength to cut Hachibi's horn when also aided by the piercing qualities of Raiton. Considering we have nothing else to compare this feat to and we've seen other parts of the Hachibi cut rather casually like it's Tails; I don't see how this anywhere near the magnitude of force exerted by Deva's higher end ST.


 And Hachibi's head being blown back from A's strike doesn't indicate anything. Right.



Turrin said:


> So Liger Bomb > than being hit by an ST which clearly demonstrated more force being exerted on the target than Liager bomb, and than right after tanking a partial Bijuu Bomb hit. Sorry, but there is absolutely no evidence supporting that assertion.


 Force being exerted on the target, eh. It didn't demonstrate more force exerted _on the target_. 



Turrin said:


> Deva Paths, Human Path, and Asura Path are not going down to a single liger bomb given their displays of tanking ability; even the original Animal Path is somewhat debatable as he tanked a SM J-man's kick to the throat
> 
> I'm not saying they'd be totally fine afterwards, but we can't just ignore that they have tanked much worse attacks and simply say Liger Bomb kills them, because Liger Bomb did some relatively minor damage to the weakest Susano'o. Deva's high end STs & Senjutsu users attacks would do more damage than Liger Bomb to Stage 1 Susano'o.



I forgot about one instance of Raikage's strength being commented on. KCM Naruto says that if doesn't guard himself he will suffer serious damage if hit by Raikage's punch. KCM Naruto. Normal punches. Something weaker than named Taijutsu move like Liger Bomb. So. How do you think KCM Naruto's durability compares to Deva's?


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## ueharakk (Jan 21, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> There are points of reference, if one is willing to look for them.
> 
> E.g.,
> 
> ...



pain tendou, unlike susanoo, is elastic and thus takes blunt force attacks better than susanoo which is rigid and brittle just like the juubi spawn takes sakura's punch while Tsunade's equal or weaker punches crack ribcage susanoo.  That's all your own logic BTW.

In addition to that, Pain didn't take Sage Naruto's kick twice, he blocked one in the same manner edo madara blocked Ei's hit which resulted in Tendou getting bounced around the ground and unable to get up.  The second kick, which did land, was by a naruto who was moving away from pain's body, thus his momentum was working against him.  Contrast that to Ei's hits all which are aided by the momentum generated by his speed.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> We don't even know if thats the case.
> 
> Naruto has lifting feats.
> 
> ...


Except those people with superior striking power do it with chakra amplifiers, not with raw physical strength.  Ei's striking power comes from the momentum he gains with RnY shunshin, Tsunade's striking power comes from releasing chakra at the precise moment of impact.  Sure they have naturally high strength, but nothing they've done comes close to throwing boss summons into clouds and for the reasons above, you can't base their raw physical strength on their striking feats. 

Finally, we have ways to compare at least SM Naruto and RnY strength: and that's by the destruction they cause by their throws.  Ei slams sasuke into the ground and he causes much less destruction than what naruto generates by throwing a boss into the sky.  Thus SM Naruto's physical strength is greater than Ei's.



As for the thread, Sandaime wins it.  He doesn't need to use his 1 finger nukite to defeat Ei, even punching will do it.  Ei is going to land more hits assuming he is faster than his father, but his hits aren't going to do much while sandaime's will be crippling blows for him.  Even if Sandaime does use the 1 finger, nothing implies Ei has the reactions on par with SM Naruto to dodge and counter sandaime's hit.


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## Turrin (Jan 22, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Raikage tackled Killer B without even having Raiton Shroud on. It wasn't his named attack. It wasn't even a proper punch.


You do realize I showed more than one attack right? Go back and check the second link.



> Oh, my. AoE has no direct correlation with applied force. Things like Futon: Atsugai with greater AoE aren't as damaging to single target as Rasengan for example. Even though Atsugai is obviously more "powerful". I thought it is like basic physics.


- Futon Atsugai and Rasengan are comparing apples and oranges; Rasengan does a great deal of it's damage internally
- Shinra Tensei is specifically a repelling force, so if that repelling force is hitting the cliff w/ enough strength to still cause such a massive explosion after traveling a fair distance, the repelling force being exerted far excels any striking force Ei has displayed. Kishi is not considering physics to get that out of here



> Shinra Tensei was shown traveling and affecting things in its paths several times. See Deva vs TKB.


That's all fine and dandy, but 

- the explosion happens directly after Deva hits the cliff and in the same exact area; common sense dictates the explosion was therefore Deva hitting the clify
- If Deva was hit by the force of ST into the cliff, that still means Deva received the same force



> Targets with massive size and weight, right.


And your point is what?



> Applied force =\= AoE.


If someone is hit by the Repelling force of the Shinra Tensei is very clear as it tore through the earth floor like nothing when directed at KN6, Deva was hit by that and sent head first into a cliffy. How is Liger bomb more powerful than that?



> And Hachibi's head being blown back from A's strike doesn't indicate anything. Right.


When was Hachibi's head blown back? 



> Force being exerted on the target, eh. It didn't demonstrate more force exerted on the target.


Yes it did, it sent the target flying into a mountain w/ such force that it created a massive explosion, that dwarfed Liger Bomb in scale. 



> I forgot about one instance of Raikage's strength being commented on. KCM Naruto says that if doesn't guard himself he will suffer serious damage if hit by Raikage's punch. KCM Naruto. Normal punches. Something weaker than named Taijutsu move like Liger Bomb. So. How do you think KCM Naruto's durability compares to Deva's?


Naruto saying he would take a hit clean on he'd have damage is really not unexpected, I don't expect Deva come out undamaged, I just don't expect Deva to die. Unless your telling me Ei attacks are more powerful than being hit by a partial Bijuu Bomb.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I don't see how you can not understand my meaning.



Because what you said isn't a coherent idea. It looks like you took a bunch of different ideas and randomly threw pieces of them together into something that looks like a sentence.



> Fair conditions is how fights actually play out in the manga,



5m and no knowledge is a common occurrence in the manga.



> but I digress, it doesn't matter whether you feel the conditions are fair or not, as when I said Onoki could beat Pain I was speaking towards very specific conditions, which those are not.



Fair enough. But unless those conditions include the restriction of both Gakidou and Tendou, Oonoki's chances are effectively zero.



> The funny part is that the more you say it's impossible the more likely it is to be true, that's how far from the manga cannon your opinions have strayed as of late.



That's funny, because so far, half of your responses have been either reaction images or incomprehensible garbled nonsense.



> Doesn't make it any less ridiculous. But hey let's go w/ your latest brilliant comment about how Deidara would rape stomp Kitsuchi + Kakuzu (or was it Darui, ether way) at the same time.



Yeah, that's pretty much a fact, as neither one of them can detect C4 or reach Deidara when he's airborne, and they're all slower than Sasuke, who failed to stop Deidara from getting airborne.



ueharakk said:


> pain tendou, unlike susanoo, is elastic and thus takes blunt force attacks better than susanoo which is rigid and brittle just like the juubi spawn takes sakura's punch while Tsunade's equal or weaker punches crack ribcage susanoo.  That's all your own logic BTW.



While this is true, it doesn't account for the fact that Tendou used Shinra Tensei to stop the Akimichi duo from crushing him (and dodged Chouji's punch).

Don't tell me you're going off the rails on SSM12's "Pain is more durable than Susano'o" crazy train, too.



> In addition to that, Pain didn't take Sage Naruto's kick twice, he blocked one in the same manner edo madara blocked Ei's hit which resulted in Tendou getting bounced around the ground and unable to get up.  The second kick, which did land, was by a naruto who was moving away from pain's body, thus his momentum was working against him.  Contrast that to Ei's hits all which are aided by the momentum generated by his speed.



I'll accept this answer. Incidentally, I would still count blocking the kick as taking it and surviving.


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## The World (Jan 22, 2014)

Naruto used the rasengan because of it's spinning feature

typical Niku


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## Nikushimi (Jan 22, 2014)

The World said:


> Naruto used the rasengan because of it's spinning feature
> 
> typical Niku



Get the fuck out.


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## The World (Jan 22, 2014)

logic is too much for Niku to handle 

Itachi soloes


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## ueharakk (Jan 22, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> While this is true, it doesn't account for the fact that Tendou used Shinra Tensei to stop the Akimichi duo from crushing him (and dodged Chouji's punch).
> 
> Don't tell me you're going off the rails on SSM12's "Pain is more durable than Susano'o" crazy train, too.


I don't understand how that counters my point.  Even if pain could have survived their crushing attack, why would he opt to just take the hit instead of using shinra tensei to avoid it?  And it's not like pain was using shinra tensei only to avoid being hurt by attacks.

In addition to that, no i'm not saying pain is more durable than susanoo, but by your logic, he doesn't have to be in order to come out of a blunt force hit without getting his body broken since like the juubi spawn he's an elastic being rather than a solid, brittle construct.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jan 22, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Cute.
> 
> Try to stay focused.







> Sure. Why not?
> 
> We know nothing about the Pains while they were alive, and they were evidently somewhat important if Nagato went to the trouble of selecting them for his Pain Rikudou. Jiraiya knew who they all were, too.



If you're implying they must have had some degree of strength to them because they were selected by Nagato, I'd like to refer you to Naraka Path. That guy is barely above your standard Jonin; there's nothing special about it.

I simply feel that there's some disconnect between Yahiko, who shouldn't be Kage-level by any means, to a Deva Path whose durability exceeds that of most Kage. That explosion was bigger than Raikage's _maximum-speed punch_, and perhaps even *Sage Art: Rasengan*. Do I buy that a guy like Yahiko could have survived that? Definitely not.

Nor do I buy that Human Path could have deflected a blow from Sage Jiraiya in his lifetime, since that already grants him strength beyond most Kage. Point is, these Paths have, in my opinion, been likely granted physical enhancements that allow them to perform such feats.



> Kakashi survived two Shinra Tensei. So are you asking me if I seriously think Yahiko is about Kakashi-level in terms of physical ability? Because that's what the manga showed, so yes, that's what I think.



You think the Shinra Tensei that barely formed a small crater in its launch, or shattered an Earth Release: Mud Wall is anything comparable to a fully-powered Shinra Tensei that launched 100-meter frogs to the next zip code, or threw Deva halfway across the Konoha crater into a mountain hard enough to cause an explosion half the size of said mountain?

I'll tell you something else: those heads of Konoha Rushmore were calculated to be* thirty metres* or so tall. The whole mountain should be _well_ past 100 metres.

If you sincerely believe all Shinra Tensei have the same power, I have absolutely nothing to say to you. Your argument is a_ joke._



> Bro, anything's possible. But I would seriously have to question then why Sasuke's neck is bent all herp the fucking derp like that.



To attempt to avoid the strike? When you see something flinging towards your face, you don't just watch it bifurcate your neck in two. You inch away as much as you can, and it's possible that it's just what Sasuke did.

In any case, can you prove that Raikage actually _struck_ his neck? Because if you can't, your argument is worthless and ultimately, your case of 'Raikage > Naruto in strength' simply falls apart.



> Oh, that. Well the ram summon is about as big as the hole it smashed open. In contrast, the crater generated by the Raikage's Liger Bomb was many dozens of times larger than the cross-sectional area at the point of contact (which was basically Sasuke's head and shoulders). Scale it up to the same size and, pound-for-pound, the Raikage's attack is hands-down superior.



No, both Sasuke's ribcage and Jiraiya's back both took a certain amount of force. 'Cross-sectional area' or not, that's what happened. Jiraiya took all of the charge's force exerting upon him and that wall; Sasuke's ribcage took the force of Liger Bomb exerted on him and ground. There's _no_ difference.

Furthermore, we see the Yakstanding right *outside* the hole. That makes it even more impressive; Jiraiya was blasted hard enough to render that deep-as-fuck crater, all on his own. It's not even as if the Yak was _physically plowing through the wall_; he simply slammed Jiraiya into it, and the remaining force was enough to throw the Sannin that deep, through solid concrete.

Don't forget, additionally, that we're also talking depth here; if you return to my scans and observe them, you'll also notice that the crater itself was cylindrical in shape.

The Yak is already roughly 100 meters based off scaling Gamabunta (they should be the same size). Imagine just how much deeper the crater would be, given that it's cylindrically shaped. We're talking *300-400* meters in depth; Raikage's Liger Bomb was like, what... _two_?



> Incidentally, even if the Raikage totally missed Sasuke, my point that his attack failed to cut all the way through Susano'o stands.


.

You know this how? You realize that this happened: Raikage swung his Horizontal Chop, broke through the ribcage, and possibly missed Sasuke. He couldn't have 'cut all the way through Susano'o' (whatever that means), because at that moment Sasuke was already thrown a good distance from the momentum.



> Originally Posted by *Grimmjowsensei*
> crater itself was cylindrical in shape.



What does that exactly prove? Is it not prudent for someone to avoid all attacks should any potential risk occur? Pain would have to be an idiot to let any and all attacks reach him. That attributes more to his cautious character than anything.



> crater itself was cylindrical in shape.
> 
> _Thats not Deva but then there hasn't been any distinction between the individual bodies of Pain._



Yes, there's no distinction between a guy that keeps up with Konohamaru and other bodies that a) survive numerous attacks, including Lightning Blade b) overpower Kakashi in taijutsu with ease, c) keep up with Sage Jiraiya and block his punches, not to mention blitzing ANBU Black Ops members.

That makes perfect sense. You're so smart.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 22, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> What does that exactly prove? Is it not prudent for someone to avoid all attacks should any potential risk occur? Pain would have to be an idiot to let any and all attacks reach him. That attributes more to his cautious character than anything.



Why would he waste ST on an attack that he could tank ? Using St on something he can tank isn't smart because then he leaves himself open for 5 seconds.

Its easy to depict that a mere kunai would harm him.




> Yes, there's no distinction between a guy that keeps up with Konohamaru and other bodies that a) survive numerous attacks, including Lightning Blade b) overpower Kakashi in taijutsu with ease, c) keep up with Sage Jiraiya and block his punches, not to mention blitzing ANBU Black Ops members.
> 
> That makes perfect sense. You're so smart.



I meant durability.

Asura is obviously different given he is a robot. 
The rest 5 are flesh and blood.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jan 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why would he waste ST on an attack that he could tank ? *Using St on something he can tank isn't smart because then he leaves himself open for 5 seconds.*
> 
> Its easy to depict that a mere kunai would harm him.



That's not something for you to decide; Pain isn't one to take random hits. Why is it smart to just let yourself be hit by attacks you're not 100% sure you can tank, when said attacks _could_ be enhanced? How did he know that said Kakashi wasn't another Lightning Clone, and could_ paralyze_ him if physical contact was made? Shinra Tensei would be a good way to counter such a trap.

Bottom-line is, you think Pain can't take attacks of that level simply because he avoids them; I say he avoids them because he's cautious, and claims that his durability is below of such are baseless unless we've *actually* seen him hurt by kunai/shuriken, etc.



> I meant durability.
> 
> Asura is obviously different given he is a robot.
> The rest 5 are flesh and blood.



I think there's an obvious difference between a Deva Path who could shrug off a 100-meter-summon-blasting Shinra Tensei, and a Naraka Path that gets knocked out from a *tiny-ass* Rasengan from Konohamaru that barely destroyed a wall, right? 

Or a Preta Path that gets his neck snapped from one Frog Kata, yet Deva could take two *direct *hits from Sage Naruto?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 24, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> That's not something for you to decide; Pain isn't one to take random hits. *Why is it smart to just let yourself be hit by attacks you're not 100% sure you can tank,* when said attacks _could_ be enhanced? How did he know that said Kakashi wasn't another Lightning Clone, and could_ paralyze_ him if physical contact was made? Shinra Tensei would be a good way to counter such a trap.
> 
> Bottom-line is, you think Pain can't take attacks of that level simply because he avoids them; I say he avoids them because he's cautious, and claims that his durability is below of such are baseless unless we've *actually* seen him hurt by kunai/shuriken, etc.



Exactly, he didn't trust his durability 100% that he could  tank a kunai. Thus he didn't want to get hit.





> I think there's an obvious difference between a Deva Path who could shrug off a 100-meter-summon-blasting Shinra Tensei, and a Naraka Path that gets knocked out from a *tiny-ass* Rasengan from Konohamaru that barely destroyed a wall, right?



Konohomaru's rasengan didn't put him out of comission. 

Deva realm died to a rasengan from base Naruto.



> Or a Preta Path that gets his neck snapped from one Frog Kata, yet Deva could take two *direct *hits from Sage Naruto?



Deva path took 1 direct hit. And that was to his stomach. I'll go ahead and say  that getting an unexpected hit to your face from a wrong angle(which ends up twisting your head and snapping your neck) and a hit to your stomach isn't the same thing. Not even close.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jan 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Exactly, he didn't trust his durability 100% that he could  tank a kunai. Thus he didn't want to get hit.



Did you even read the rest of that paragraph? I'll draw it up again so you don't have an excuse to ignore it. Otherwise, it's an indirect concession. 



> Originally Posted by* Try Reading, Numbnuts*
> _How did he know that said Kakashi wasn't another Lightning Clone, and could paralyze him if physical contact was made? Shinra Tensei would be a good way to counter such a trap._
> 
> Bottom-line is, you think Pain can't take attacks of that level simply because he avoids them; I say he avoids them because he's cautious, and claims that his durability is below of such are baseless unless we've actually seen him hurt by kunai/shuriken, etc.





> Konohomaru's rasengan didn't put him out of comission.
> 
> Deva realm died to a rasengan from base Naruto.



Have you heard about a little something I like to call, I don't know, accumulated damage? Deva Path had been enduring a shitload of that over the course of the fight - two hits from Sage Naruto, his own Shinra Tensei, and the shockwave from Six-Tailed Naruto's Tailed Beast Bomb. 

It's laughable that you actually believe that one Rasengan is above his level of durability, but hey, whatever works for you, chuckles. 



> Deva path took 1 direct hit. And that was to his stomach. I'll go ahead and say  that getting an unexpected hit to your face from a wrong angle(which ends up twisting your head and snapping your neck) and a hit to your stomach isn't the same thing. Not even close.



Probably. But are you seriously under the notion that none of the Paths have varying durability?

We have Preta Path blocking Kiba's Fang-Over-Fang purposely because 'he doesn't like physical attacks', compared to Human Path's casual deflection of a punch much stronger than said technique. We have Naraka Path being knocked out from Konohamaru's feeble little Rasengan that's even weaker than Part 1 Naruto's first attempt on Kabuto's, to Deva Path brushing off his kiloton-level Shinra Tensei.

Saying all of the Paths bar Asura are on the same level in durability, is quite the statement.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 24, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Did you even read the rest of that paragraph? I'll draw it up again so you don't have an excuse to ignore it. Otherwise, it's an indirect concession.



I read it and it doesn't prove anything.

"He is cautious thats why he used ST to save himself from it" isn't good enough of an excuse.

He wouldn't rely on ST if that attack didn't pose any danger to him. Simple as that.




> Have you heard about a little something I like to call, I don't know, accumulated damage? Deva Path had been enduring a shitload of that over the course of the fight - two hits from Sage Naruto, his own Shinra Tensei, and the shockwave from Six-Tailed Naruto's Tailed Beast Bomb.



TBH he didn't show any sign of strain till he took Naruto's kick to his stomach. He was* indirectly *hit by the Bijuu blast, seemed like he was just grazed considering the damage on his cloak. 
And I don't think he tanked his own ST with his stomach. He wasn't hit by ST, he was send back. And falling in this manga hardly deals any significant damage on anyone, unless they are 100 ton+ summons.

So you might say a kick from SM Naruto to the stomach + a rasengan is enough to kill him.



> It's laughable that you actually believe that one Rasengan is above his level of durability, but hey, whatever works for you, chuckles.



It depends on where the rasengan lands. But stomach is an unprotected area. And to be fair, his abs weren't that great 




> Probably. But are you seriously under the notion that none of the Paths have varying durability?



You may argue that it depends on how much chakra Nagato allocates in each body. 
But then, there is no way to quantify such statement. Nor any proof that it actually is true.



> We have Preta Path blocking Kiba's Fang-Over-Fang purposely because 'he doesn't like physical attacks', compared to Human Path's casual deflection of a punch much stronger than said technique.


Physical strength doesn't equate to durability. You are talking about blocking here. 
No matter how strong you are, a bullet will penetrate your skull.

Also where did you get the notion that Jiraiya's casual punch is stronger than Gatsuga ? 



> We have Naraka Path being knocked out from Konohamaru's feeble little Rasengan that's even weaker than Part 1 Naruto's first attempt on Kabuto's, to Deva Path brushing off his kiloton-level Shinra Tensei.


What Kiloton level shinra tensei ? 



> Saying all of the Paths bar Asura are on the same level in durability, is quite the statement.



There could be some variations but I highly doubt they vary too much, given Pain doesn't excel in physical abilities. There is no need to believe that he is a durability freak that he can tank piercing weapons. 

Durability feats are mainly associated with blunt attack types. Rarely they tank piercing attacks unless they have some kind of a special armor type.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jan 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I read it and it doesn't prove anything.
> 
> "He is cautious thats why he used ST to save himself from it" isn't good enough of an excuse.
> 
> He wouldn't rely on ST if that attack didn't pose any danger to him. Simple as that.



What? Did Deva Path not just witness a Lightning technique used on Asura Path that paralyzed said Path, and granted Choji and Choza ample time to nail him with enlarged punches? Did that not occur, because Asura was in *direct physical contact* with Kakashi, as Deva was about to be?

A dispersing Lightning Clone would have left Deva Path open to a strike that he could not possibly evade. That _more_ than enough justifies his usage of Shinra Tensei, to ensure that wouldn't happen. It has _nothing_ to do with durability - a Lightning Clone will paralyze you regardless of your strength in that department.

I really don't understood what's so hard to grasp about this.



> And I don't think he tanked his own ST with his stomach. *He wasn't hit by ST*, he was send back.



Excuse me? You're under the notion that Shinra Tensei doesn't carry a concussive impact? 

That idea is factually wrong. Shinra Tensei has always carried a measurable impact, even when using a weak one against Kakashi. It varies in power, and I wouldn't expect the one that blasted a great amount of rock behind Six-Tailed Naruto from the indirect force to be lightweight. Heck, a prior iteration practically shattered a building into tiny fragments; Deva took something *much *stronger.



> And falling in this manga hardly deals any significant damage on anyone, unless they are 100 ton+ summons.



Quite the disingenuous approach of looking at it, no?

Deva's collision with the Konoha Monument yielded an explosion half of that of the entire mountain's height. Here's the scaling for the length of all the faces put together - well over 100 meters. You think this wouldn't be validated as 'significant damage on anyone'?  That's one hell of an impressive durability feat for the Deva Path; you can't deny that.



> So you might say a kick from SM Naruto to the stomach + a rasengan is enough to kill him.



.... plus another kick, plus the shockwave from Six-Tailed Naruto's blast, plus said Shinra Tensei which is entire magnitudes above the Raikage's Liger Bomb, or even his maximum-speed punch, for that matter, etc, etc.



> It depends on where the rasengan lands. But stomach is an unprotected area. And to be fair, his abs weren't that great



Everyone in this manga is skinny. Even Madara. 



> You may argue that it depends on how much chakra Nagato allocates in each body.
> But then, there is no way to quantify such statement. Nor any proof that it actually is true.



I *just* gave you the comparison of Naraka Path getting incapacitated by a wall-level sub-Part-1-Naruto Rasengan vs. a full-powered Shinra Tensei that's indefinitely stronger than the one used to blow the toads out and yielded a explosion over 100 meters in width, 50 meters in height.

How the heck are those not different by a huge margin?



> Physical strength doesn't equate to durability. You are talking about blocking here.
> No matter how strong you are, a bullet will penetrate your skull.



Preta Path flat out _needed_ a shield to block the Fang-Over-Fang implying it would bypass his level of durability. Human Path blocked something substantially stronger with his hand.

His hand, and by extension his arm, would have to be much more durable to withstand that much force. Heck, that's basically the very basis of the relationship between physical strength and durability; if you have freakish strength, your durability has to be proportionally greater for your body to withstand and output that amount of power without ripping itself apart.

Exceptions would obviously be people like Tsunade, who uses chakra release to generate her enormous, cratering impacts, but what Human Path does - in catching blows from Sages - and Naraka Path - drawing blood from Ebisu  - are measures of raw strength, nothing more. Human Path would have to be, by definition, more durable.



> Also where did you get the notion that Jiraiya's casual punch is stronger than Gatsuga ?



Gatsuga barely cratered a wall.

Sage Jiraiya's kick had Human Path flying and breaking open multiple divots in the floor just from the skidding force and still retaining enough force to blow open a deep cave in a large boulder. 

Not to mention Jiraiya's did so over a considerably larger distance.



> What Kiloton level shinra tensei ?







> There could be some variations but I highly doubt they vary too much, *given Pain doesn't excel in physical abilities*.



And that's where you're wrong. Deva Path, Asura Path, and Human Path have all displayed physical abilities that are high-tier in this manga, particularly the latter two, who can rival Sages (who are in their own right, on par with the Raikage, or stronger).



> Durability feats are mainly associated with blunt attack types. Rarely they tank piercing attacks unless they have some kind of a special armor type.



Did you even forget what this little sub-argument was originally about? I never once made the positive claim that Deva Path, or other bodies could survive piercing attacks (which varies by an enormous range, anyways); I am only of the stance of: 'Why couldn't it be true?'. You attempted to refute by showing me Kakashi getting his ass blown back by Shinra Tensei moments before attacking Deva with a kunai, I refuted that.

You said all Paths have the same durability, and since Naraka got pierced, so would Deva.I refuted that. This is all on you. You have to prove why Deva couldn't tank piercing attacks.


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## Icegaze (Jan 25, 2014)

sandaime eats his son alive for the sport of it. 
he fingers him, black lightning him am sure black lightning >normal lightning 
nikute>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>chidori so this is hardly a fight 

no compete here at all


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