# KCM Minato vs Edo Itachi



## JuicyG (Oct 26, 2014)

*Distance*: 100 meters

*Location*: VOTE

*Intel*: Full for Itachi, Rep for Minato

*Mindset*: Blood Lusted

*Restrictions*: One-Liners. Summons. Death God. 

_Condition:_

_Minato is alive

Minato has sealing tags _


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

Minato speedblitzes.

or what he did when he stopped Kakashi, or when he threw his Kunai in front of Madara.

Itachi will need the Juubi's power here to counter his speed as shown in the manga.


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

Could go either way. Edo Itachi is at the same level at KCM Minato in my opinion.


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## Ghost (Oct 26, 2014)

Living KCM Minato is an impossibility but whatever.

Being ET allows Itachi to camp in Susano'o and pretty much spam all of his abilities. With only rep knowledge I'd say Minato closes the distance without worrying about it too much which brings him into Itachi's range.

With full knowledge Itachi should be able to set up plan to defeat the Yellow Flash. Tsukuyomi and Totsuka are still going to one shot.

*In these conditions* I'd say Itachi takes this high/extreme diff.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 26, 2014)

Tsukiyomi GG. Knowledge advantage gives Itachi the win.


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## Cognitios (Oct 26, 2014)

Full knowledge Edo Itachi amas every kunai that Minato throws eliminating FTG and any Space/Time Ninjutus
Summons are eliminated by Amaterasu
Kurama suppressed by Sharingan Genjutsu
Itachi stays in Susanoo the whole time just spamming genjutsu and amaterasu
Minato doesn't have the firepower to burst through yata and ftg is out of the question do to ama the tags


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## Ashi (Oct 26, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Could go either way. Edo Itachi is at the same level at KCM Minato in my opinion.



Ha


Minato mid diffs


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## Hachibi (Oct 26, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Ha
> 
> 
> Minato mid diffs



One liner are restricted.

Also prove that Minato mid-diff.


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## Ruse (Oct 26, 2014)

Minato takes this high difficulty.


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## Ghost (Oct 26, 2014)

How exactly is Minato winning this? Let alone mid diffing.

He has nothing to get past Susano'o.


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## Ashi (Oct 26, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> One liner are restricted.
> 
> Also prove that Minato mid-diff.



KCM Lvl speed means that Itachi gets tagged eventually and hit with a Rasengan or Kunai Slash



Or Minato users chakra arms  to close the distance between the two


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## Ghost (Oct 26, 2014)

How the fuck does Minato tag Itachi through Susano'o?


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

Since Itachi is in Edo form, he has the ability to just stay in Susano'o. Minato doesn't have anything in his arsenal that could destroy Itachi's Susano'o, especially with Yata Mirror too. Minato also has no counter to Tsukuyomi, he'd be out if he gets hit without being able to wake up. He can counter Amaterasu though, with his Kyubi cloak. As for Itachi's elemental attacks, Minato's fast enough to dodge them. Susano'o is Minato's problem as well as Tsukuyomi. Minato's obviously a lot faster than Itachi though, especially KCM Minato. If the distance was a lot shorter then Minato could potentially take out Itachi in the first few seconds, the distance highly favours Itachi.


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

> =Itachі;52063490]Since Itachi is in Edo form, he has the ability to just stay in Susano'o. Minato doesn't have anything in his arsenal that could destroy Itachi's Susano'o, especially with Yata Mirror too.


He can teleport it away like with Sasuke.  Also, the Susanoo is a chakra form, so he can link his chakra to the Susanoo, and thus to itachi. Then he can teleport to itachi directly. Of course, that assuming itachi would have the chance to use susanoo in the first place. 



> Minato also has no counter to Tsukuyomi, he'd be out if he gets hit without being able to wake up.


How would itachi be able to make Minato stops and look directly to his eyes? Not to mention Minato is a sensor and has clones as well. What are the odds that itachi can do that? 


> If the distance was a lot shorter then Minato could potentially take out Itachi in the first few seconds, the distance highly favours Itachi.


The distance is only 100m. Minato in BASE was able to cross Konoha in seconds. I believe Konoha is much longer than only 100m.


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> He can teleport it away like with Sasuke.  Also, the Susanoo is a chakra form, so he can link his chakra to the Susanoo, and thus to itachi. Then he can teleport to itachi directly. Of course, that assuming itachi would have the chance to use susanoo in the first place.



That works but Itachi could guard with Yata Mirror, although Minato could still flank him.

Itachi with full knowledge would likely start up with Susano'o anyway. 



> How would itachi be able to make Minato stops and look directly to his eyes? Not to mention Minato is a sensor and has clones as well. What are the odds that itachi can do that?



Looking at an opponent's face is common, it's not done with intent or purpose. With clones his main body would still be out of action, Itachi would just take out the real one.

Also, standard Genjutsu is an effective option.



> The distance is only 100m. Minato in BASE was able to cross Konoha in seconds. I believe Konoha is much longer than only 100m.



Mhm, but a couple of seconds is enough for Itachi to react to, Minato's not going to throw kunai that far. 

My general consensus with Itachi vs Minato is that it could go either way, both are extremely smart and versatile. Basically it comes down to this for me, if Minato gets caught in Genjutsu he loses, if he doesn't then he wins.


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

> [=Itachі;52063880]That works but Itachi could guard with Yata Mirror, although Minato could still flank him.
> 
> Itachi with full knowledge would likely start up with Susano'o anyway.


I don't see how the Yata would make any different honestly. Not to mention Minato can use like 9 chakra arms or so, and they are really big. He could attach them to Susanoo and create the chakra link at any given time. 


> Looking at an opponent's face is common, it's not done with intent or purpose. With clones his main body would still be out of action, Itachi would just take out the real one.
> 
> Also, standard Genjutsu is an effective option.



Yes, but the jutsu does not go automatically, itachi does need to build up his chakra to use it, and like Amatersu, the Genjutsu is also short-range jutsu.

but unlike the Amatersu where you can argue that it has been used on a greater distance, this is not the case here. So, itachi would really need to be close to Minato, and I don't think that's an intelligent thing to do. 

- No, it's not. Minato here has KCM, which means Genjutsu is useless because of the partner method. Even Tsuki itself is questionable in this case honestly. 



> Mhm, but a couple of seconds is enough for Itachi to react to, Minato's not going to throw kunai that far.



Minato threw the Kunais extremely fast all around the Juubi, and even Tobirama praised him, you know, the same guy who was the fastest in his time?

he threw the Kunai next to JJ Madara, before Kakashi could even use his Kamui, which is a fast attack by itself. 


> My general consensus with Itachi vs Minato is that it could go either way, both are extremely smart and versatile. Basically it comes down to this for me, if Minato gets caught in Genjutsu he loses, if he doesn't then he wins.


as I said, this is KCM, Genjutsu is useless against a host.


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## Itachі (Oct 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I don't see how the Yata would make any different honestly. Not to mantion Minato can use like 9 chakra arms or so, and they are really big. He could attack them to Susanoo and create the chakra link at any given time.



You're right, Chakra arms are an effective counter.



> Yes, but the jutsu does not go automatically, itachi does need to build up his chakra to use, and like Amatersu, the Genjutsu is also short-range jutsu.
> 
> but unlike the Amatersu where you can argue that it has been used on a greater distance, this is not the case here. So, itachi would really be close to Minato, and I don't think that's an intelligent thing to do.



Viable point. However, the Databook was proved wrong about Amaterasu in terms of range so it could very well be wrong about Tsukuyomi.

Also, Ao made a point about Itachi's Genjutsu range. [1] It's not specifically referring to Tsukuyomi though.



> - No, it's not. Minato here has KCM, which means Genjutsu is useless because of the partner method. Even Tsuki itself is questionable in this case honestly.



The Kyubi still needs to wake Minato up though. Itachi with full knowledge could take him out by then. 

Nah, Tsukuyomi renders the target unconscious. Kakashi wasn't woken up by Asuma or Kurenai and he took the full brunt of Tsukuyomi.



> Minato threw the Kunais extremely fast all around the Juubi, and even Tobirama praised him, you know, the same guy who was the fastest in his time?
> 
> he threw the Kunai next to JJ Madara, before Kakashi could even use his Kamui, which is a fast attack by itself.



I acknowledge that he's fast but for an Itachi with full knowledge on Minato even 2 seconds is enough for him to react to.


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## Veracity (Oct 26, 2014)

Tobirama would defeat Edo Itachi . KCM Minato destroys.


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## Kaiser (Oct 26, 2014)

Minato mid difficulty. His mountain level chakra arms alongside odama rasengans would likely destroy Itachi


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

> =Itachі;52064323]
> Viable point. However, the Databook was proved wrong about Amaterasu in terms of range so it could very well be wrong about Tsukuyomi.


Not necessarily. The Databook made a note that the Jutsu's range may be bigger/greater depending on the user's skills. Sasuke's usage of the Amatersu is greater than itachi's, and that was stated by C. That Amatersu's profile was about itachi's Amatersu specifically though. 


> Also, Ao made a point about Itachi's Genjutsu range. [1] It's not specifically referring to Tsukuyomi though.



It's about controlling them, not using the Genjutsu itself. Remember itachi used his Genjutsu on a girl to get Jiraiya away from Narudo. He used it on a short-range, but after it was already used, the woman was still under his control even after she went far way, until Jiraiya displayed the Genjutsu. 


> The Kyubi still needs to wake Minato up though. Itachi with full knowledge could take him out by then.
> 
> Nah, Tsukuyomi renders the target unconscious. Kakashi wasn't woken up by Asuma or Kurenai and he took the full brunt of Tsukuyomi.



Even if Minato was under the genjutsu in those seconds, remember his still has his KCM on, and we all know how powerful and durable that cloak is. How is itachi going to take him out with the cloak protecting him?

Kakashi's stamina is not comparable to Minato, nor is his ability to endure. Kakashi also was saved in 1 second by Tsunade when she came, and we know that Kurama's chakra does more or less the same thing. I.E how Naruto recover very fast, and how he was able to save Shikamaru. 



> I acknowledge that he's fast but for an Itachi with full knowledge on Minato even 2 seconds is enough for him to react to.



A had full knowledge on Minato and he is several tiers above itachi in term of speed, and yet he couldn't react to him and had to be saved. Obito also had knowledge on Minato's speed, and he has Kamui which is one of the fastest jutsus, and he couldn't react at all. I don't see why should we assume that itachi is going to be faster than them honestly.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 26, 2014)

Minato high diff.

minato will start the match with his Kunais, Itachi will try to eliminate those kunais with Susanoo, the main idea is that Itachi cant maintain susanoo despite being an Edo.

What Minato must do is wait for Itachi to deplete chakra, then speedblitz Itachi, once Minato marks hims, GG.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 26, 2014)

Your scenario assumes Itachi is an idiot. And Minato is actually fast enough to speed blitz him.


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> Minato high diff.
> 
> minato will start the match with his Kunais, Itachi will try to eliminate those kunais with Susanoo, the main idea is that Itachi cant maintain susanoo despite being an Edo.
> 
> What Minato must do is wait for Itachi to deplete chakra, then speedblitz Itachi, once Minato marks hims, GG.



or he just teleport the Susanoo right away, and speed blitze him.


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## Ersa (Oct 26, 2014)

Could go either way.

Minato isn't blitzing shit here though. Edo Itachi showed reflexes on par with EMS Sasuke who could probably track Minato with ease unless he's faster then a Juubi Jinn.


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Could go either way.
> 
> Minato isn't blitzing shit here though. Edo Itachi showed reflexes on par with EMS Sasuke who could probably track Minato with ease unless he's faster then a Juubi Jinn.



Minato showed speed on par 8th Gate Gai. Itachi's reflexes is not doing shit here.


to counter his speed, itachi needs the Juubi's power as with obito and madara. Other than that, he does not stand a chance.


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## Ruse (Oct 26, 2014)

That salt gif


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

I always need to put it after claiming what Minato did, so I figured why not put them together from the start.


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## Kyu (Oct 26, 2014)

KCM Minato can blitz Itachi...just not from a hundred meters. Sure Itachi can camp inside _Susano'o_, spam _Amaterasu_ & swing _Totsuka_ all day but how is he hitting Minato?

This kinda boils down to the same thing as Base Minato vs Healthy Itachi - whether the latter can successfully land _Tsukuyomi_ before the former can warp away _Susano'o_ & overwhelm the Uchiha prodigy in CQC.



> Minato showed speed on par 8th Gate Gai.



Only Minato's reactions are on that level.


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## Trojan (Oct 26, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Only Minato's reactions are on that level.



Indeed. His speed is greater since it's Instantaneous, which Gai's speed is not.
Unless you think Gai can stop time/ or go back on time of course.


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## ueharakk (Oct 27, 2014)

minato doesn't even need FTG to win this.

He's much faster than naruto in base, he's much faster than KCM Naruto.  Itachi's not even going to be able to track his shunshin, amaterasu as we've seen is fodder to chakra cloaks, and minato can use bijuudama rasengan as he knows how to use rasengan and can balance the chakra ratio.

Make itachi with a V4 susanoo, minato blows it and itachi up with a bijuudama rasengan from the back, and seals itachi.  Minato's on a different level.


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## Vice (Oct 27, 2014)

Good lord. 

Minato teleports Susanoo away and blitzes. If he doesn't outright seal him with the first attack he at leasts tags. From there it's over.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 27, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> minato doesn't even need FTG to win this.
> 
> He's much faster than naruto in base, he's much faster than KCM Naruto.  Itachi's not even going to be able to track his shunshin, amaterasu as we've seen is fodder to chakra cloaks, and minato can use bijuudama rasengan as he knows how to use rasengan and can balance the chakra ratio.
> 
> Make itachi with a V4 susanoo, minato blows it and itachi up with a bijuudama rasengan from the back, and seals itachi.  Minato's on a different level.



Actually going by feats, there is absolutely no substantial difference between KCM Minato and Minato. You are just scaling it off of Naruto. 

And Minato using Bijuudama rasengan ? Is that even a thing ?


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## Yagami1211 (Oct 27, 2014)

May I add that Minato is cooperating with Kyuubi and that he will dispell Tsukuyomi if it does hit him.


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## TheGreen1 (Oct 27, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Could go either way. Edo Itachi is at the same level at KCM Minato in my opinion.



You're hilarious. Itachi isn't even at the level of regular Minato. One thing that can be said, with the latest chapter, is that the Kurama cloak protects against Amaterasu. Plus, this half of Kurama is known for being sympathetic and cooperative, so Genjutsu is out. And of course, this is Minato, so Itachi's already never going to touch him... ever. I say KCM Minato no difficulty.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 27, 2014)

Yagami1211 said:


> May I add that Minato is cooperating with Kyuubi and that he will dispell Tsukuyomi if it does hit him.


Tsukiyomi bypassess the partner method though.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 27, 2014)

Itachi reactions are being slept on, itachi seemed to react better then sasuke when they fought kabuto

Then itachi already was able to step with kcm naruto in taijutsu and he even avoided a blind side from bee, with full knowledge and itachi's intellegence he isn't  some fodder minato can blitz or tag with his first attempt, it will take sometime and itachi  can mentally  react to susano if he ever feels pressured, genjutsu is also a thorn in minatos side as a tsukiyomi should end it.

This match is alot closer then people are trying to make it out to be and im not scaling minatos kcm to narutos.

Even kcm form minato relied heavily on ftg if he had a shushin just as fast he would of done so.


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## Hachibi (Oct 27, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> You're hilarious.



That name calling.



> Itachi isn't even at the level of regular Minato.



Must be why they're alot of thread between those two that end in shitstorm.



> One thing that can be said, with the latest chapter, is that the Kurama cloak protects against Amaterasu. Plus, this half of Kurama is known for being sympathetic and cooperative, so Genjutsu is out.



And?



> And of course, this is Minato, so Itachi's already never going to touch him... ever.



Considering Edo Itachi reacted better than EMS Sasuke, lol no.



> I say KCM Minato no difficulty.



Not going to bother to say how wrong it is.


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## TheGreen1 (Oct 27, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Itachi reactions are being slept on, itachi seemed to react better then sasuke when they fought kabuto
> 
> Then itachi already was able to step with kcm naruto in taijutsu and he even avoided a blind side from bee, with full knowledge and itachi's intellegence he isn't  some fodder minato can blitz or tag with his first attempt, it will take sometime and itachi  can mentally  react to susano if he ever feels pressured, genjutsu is also a thorn in minatos side as a tsukiyomi should end it.
> 
> ...



While true, Itachi was able to fight against KCM Naruto, there are a lot of Asterisks there.

Asterisk Numero Uno: Naruto had already worn himself thin with KCM Kage Bunshins. 

Asterisk Numero Dos: Naruto was not fighting seriously at all. If Naruto took it as seriously as DatClone took his fights, it might have been different.

Asterisk Numero Tres: Naruto had bigger things to worry about, like Nagato.



Hachibi said:


> That name calling.


And what name did I call you?



> Must be why they're alot of thread between those two that end in shitstorm.


Avoiding the topic.



> And?


Concession accepted as you have not refuted anything.



> Considering Edo Itachi reacted better than EMS Sasuke, lol no.


Kabuto is nowhere NEAR as fast as Minato. But, I will give you that, Edo Itachi who was undead was doing better than an Alive EMS Sasuke.


> Not going to bother to say how wrong it is.


By not refuting it, you've accepted that my argument is superior and have thus conceded the match to me. Thank you!


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Actually going by feats, there is absolutely no substantial difference between KCM Minato and Minato. You are just scaling it off of Naruto.
> 
> And Minato using Bijuudama rasengan ? Is that even a thing ?



I agree that here is no substantial difference between base and KCM minato. In terms of speed and reactions that is, it's pretty much the same.

KCM provides him with increased durability and the ability to use chakra arms and tails, that's pretty  much it to be honest. And immunity to genjutsu due to the partner method.


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## Raiken (Oct 27, 2014)

Both Edo-Tensei: BM Minato >> KCM Minato >> MS Itachi = Base Minato >> 3TS Itachi


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## ueharakk (Oct 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Actually going by feats, there is absolutely no substantial difference between KCM Minato and Minato. You are just scaling it off of Naruto.


When did minato use his shunshin while in KCM?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And Minato using Bijuudama rasengan ? Is that even a thing ?


bijuudama rasengan is what naruto accidentally used the first time he tried to make a rasengan in his form.  The only reason it failed was because he didn't match the black to white chakra ratio.  Minato has shown the ability to do that, therefore he can use bijuudama rasengan.


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## TheGreen1 (Oct 27, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> When did minato use his shunshin while in KCM?
> 
> 
> bijuudama rasengan is what naruto accidentally used the first time he tried to make a rasengan in his form.  The only reason it failed was because he didn't match the black to white chakra ratio.  Minato has shown the ability to do that, therefore he can use bijuudama rasengan.



To be honest ueharakk, I haven't seen Minato use a Bijudama Rasengan. However, he CAN make a huge one, and use the BM Chakra Shroud. Good enough for me. I'd assume he could at least make a tailed beast bomb.


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## JuicyG (Oct 27, 2014)

Your being completely ignorant if you believe that KCM Minato = Base Minato.  The Nine-Tails Chakra Mode gives the user* increased strength, speed, and defenses*. Add that with chakra arms, this makes KCM Minato far more advantageous over his base self. The Kyuubi cloak isn't just for looks, smh.


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## TheGreen1 (Oct 27, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Your being completely ignorant if you believe that KCM Minato = Base Minato.  The Nine-Tails Chakra Mode gives the user* increased strength, speed, and defenses*. Add that with chakra arms, this makes KCM Minato far more advantageous over his base self. The Kyuubi cloak isn't just for looks, smh.



The Defenses alone clench it for Minato with ease. Not like he couldn't have won in base without too much difficulty. But seriously, KCM Minato has NO difficulty here. In fact, I'd say it's negative difficulty.


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## ueharakk (Oct 27, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> To be honest ueharakk, I haven't seen Minato use a Bijudama Rasengan. However, he CAN make a huge one, and use the BM Chakra Shroud. Good enough for me. I'd assume he could at least make a tailed beast bomb.



Minato never used a bijuudama rasengan, but we know that* naruto almost made one on accident when trying to do a normal rasengan in KCM form.*

The only reason he couldn't use it right there and then was because* he didn't have the 8:2 chakra ratio down.*
*
In order to use bijuudama in any mode, you have to be able to have that 8:2 B/W chakra ratio down.*

So if minato can use the rasengan, and can make any sized bijuudamas in any of his modes (BM/KCM) then he has the ability to use bijuudama rasengan.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 27, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> When did minato use his shunshin while in KCM?


When did Minato use his shunshin in combat, ever ? 



> bijuudama rasengan is what naruto accidentally used the first time he tried to make a rasengan in his form.  The only reason it failed was because he didn't match the black to white chakra ratio.  Minato has shown the ability to do that, therefore he can use bijuudama rasengan.



Oh, so it is fanfic. Cool.


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## ueharakk (Oct 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When did Minato use his shunshin in combat, ever ?


save naruto from obito, to which obito made a comment about obito's speed.
shunshin across konoha.

if you're trying to make the point that Minato didn't use his shunshin in combat against juubito, then you've just conceded that your argument that KCM Minato = KCM Naruto in speed is fallacious as minato never used his shunshin when in KCM.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Oh, so it is fanfic. Cool.



Since simply calling an argument a fanfic isn't in anyway shape or form a counterargument, then I accept your concession on this point.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 27, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> save naruto from obito, to which obito made a comment about obito's speed.
> shunshin across konoha.


They weren't combat related. What I mean by that is, they didn't involve attacking or dodging.



> if you're trying to make the point that Minato didn't use his shunshin in combat against juubito, then you've just conceded that your argument that KCM Minato = KCM Naruto in speed is fallacious as minato never used his shunshin when in KCM.



Thats my point. Minato's body speed or shunshin speed was never tested in combat against anyone, so we don't have anything quantifiable @ our hands. Same goes for Edo Minato. So it is impossible to spot the difference between base Minato and KCM Minato.

We know about his reaction speed, which is slightly faster than 14 year old Obito and comparable to V1 Raikage. But again, how much does KCM increase it ? 



> Since simply calling an argument a fanfic isn't in anyway shape or form a counterargument, then I accept your concession on this point.



Minato didn't use Bijuudama in KCM or BM mode. So yes, your "argument" is fanfic, as cute as it sounds.


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## JuicyG (Oct 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But again, how much does KCM increase it ?



*Were not sure.

But what we need to be sure about is that it has to be better than his base. Becasue we know KCM > Base form. The best way to scale this properly is to look at the differences from Naruto's base to KCM. Why ? Because that is our best indication of what is improved. If you don't like that, then you need to read KCM in the DB and gather your info from their and make your own implications. But we can't just say its no better than Base form. 
*


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## ueharakk (Oct 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> They weren't combat related. What I mean by that is, they didn't involve attacking or dodging.


since when are attacking or dodging the only movements related to combat?




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats my point. Minato's body speed or shunshin speed was never tested in combat against anyone, so we don't have anything quantifiable @ our hands. Same goes for Edo Minato. So it is impossible to spot the difference between base Minato and KCM Minato.


Are you actually asserting that base minato = base naruto in body speed and shunshin speed?  Obito literally gave minato's shunshin speed hype.  Unless you think obito would do the same for base naruto, and base naruto is as fast as base minato, then you don't have an argument.

If we don't have any feat evidence for base Minato's difference compared to KCM Minato, then obviously we'd use other evidence to arrive at that conclusion.  And base Minato would therefore get the same boost that base Naruto gets from KCM.  Unless of course you have some positive evidence that says otherwise.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> We know about his reaction speed, which is slightly faster than 14 year old Obito and comparable to V1 Raikage. But again, how much does KCM increase it ?


Wait a second, what in the world lead you to the idea that Ei attacked minato with just V1?

And unless you think base naruto reacts the same, then obviously minato reacts faster.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato didn't use Bijuudama in KCM or BM mode. So yes, your "argument" is fanfic, as cute as it sounds.


I've just proven to you that Minato can use bijuudama in KCM and BM. Unless you want to go back an refute the arguments that I use to arrive at that proof or you want to start evaluating all of your and everyone else's arguments by the logic that unless a person performs a feat on panel, then they are incapable of performing that feat, then it's a concession on your part.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 27, 2014)

Minato warped the Juubidama in Edo Base, which dwarfed 100% Gyuki and it's Bijuudamas which were shot at it in succession, doing absolutely nothing to it. 

KCM Minato warps his Susano with relative ease by touching it with a chakra arm or bunshin, then he slams a Rasengan into the crown of his head, and seals him a second later with the same hand. 

Don't see how anyone could give Itachi a chance, none of his techniques are nearly as fast as Madara's Truth Seekers, which he canonically reacted to at the most crucial window of time in _Base_, and warped away [1] [2] before he received any damage or any backlash from the momentum of the seekers whatsoever. 

That level of reactive perception in base is phenomenal, scale that with KCM, there is absolutely no way Itachi is hitting, let alone damaging him (as the seekers did nothing to him) with any of his attacks at any point in this battle.

Genjutsu isn't working, he literally wouldn't be able to make eye contact and initiate the Genjutsu by the time Minato flickered around him. Amaterasu isn't hitting him, and assuming it did, he pushes the flames off his body with a massive chakra arm  or several dozen at that, or simply warps the flames off his body the same way he warped Obito in place of him being hit by Enton: Futon Rasenshuriken, and received no damage. 

Totsuka also isn't sealing him, he canonically warped _while_ being slashed by Jubito and sucked in by Teenage Obito, disallowing the completion of the attacks. The most that sword does is damage Minato physically before he warps away, there is no way the Genjutsu takes him over before he warps. Not that it would hit him at all considering 100% Kurama couldn't hit a slower, fatigued version of Minato.

Considering his kunai-throw and FTG feat of outpacing Kakashi's Kamui, it's likely he manages to outright blitz Itachi at start battle before he even manages to react with Susano.


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## ueharakk (Oct 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Since combat is about attacking and dodging.


No, what you'd have to assert is that combat is ONLY about attacking and dodging.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> No, all I am saying is that there is no way to quantify the difference because we simply don't know the value for both.
> And no, scaling it off Naruto doesn't make sense either because we don't know if KCM is a multiplier or a default value.


That's just an argument from sketpicism then.  Saying 'we don't know for certain X, therefore nothing can be argued about it' and by that logic, any argument about this manga can just get thrown out the door since every argument is based on unprovable assumptions.  

So unless you want to start evaluating every argument in the battledome by the same logic that would end up with all arguments resulting in: we don't know, then no, you can't just show that the other argument can't necessarily prove their argument to be true or not, you're going to have to show that your argument is more plausible than their own.

And so with that, KCM minato receives the same buffs that kcm naruto gets from that mode until you produce some kind of positive evidence that shows or indicates otherwise.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> No, I am basing it off C's words. He said that Minato and A have comparable reaction speed and A has the ability to amp it further(referring to V2).


KCM would increase a person's reaction speed via the chakra sensing and danger sensing that the mode allows its user.  

Plus, if KCM didn't give the user better reactions, then you'd have to make the claim that base naruto = kcm naruto in reactions.  That means base naruto reacts to everything kcm naruto reacts to, and then you'd have to give an explanation for that argument.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> *You didn't prove anything. You just t told me why you believe Minato can use Bijuudama in KCM and BM, and I said thats cute, but it isn't in the manga*. Minato spent lots of time in KCM and BM and he used rasengan instead. So lets stick with canon for now.


Concession accepted as an ignored argument is a conceded one.  The bolded is flat out falsified by my explanation about how the manga explicitly denotes the requirements to use bijuudama rasengan and how minato has shown that he meets all of those requirements.

Therefore in claiming that 'it isn't in the manga' you are flat out ignoring my explanation as to why minato's ability to use bijuudama rasengan is in the manga, he just never actually decided to use the jutsu.

Thus you've been forced to defend he ridiculously absurd notion that characters are only capable of feats that they perform on panel.  Do you believe that?  If not, then you have to address my argument and show why it's not more plausible than the alternative that minato doesn't have bijuu rasengan.


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## JuicyG (Oct 27, 2014)

_Interception feats are ultimately speed feats._

*Example -*

If *K* were about to attack *J* at point blank range & *Z* was 100 meters away at the start of *K'*s attack, but manages to cross the 100 meters in time to block *K'*s attack from hitting* J*, then that ultimately is a speed feat.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 28, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> No, what you'd have to assert is that combat is ONLY about attacking and dodging.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Minato's ability to use bijuudama isn't in the manga, though. Like... thats the whole point 
The dude had BM, and he still used a regular rasengan. That is enough evidence to conclude that he can't. Lets leave it at that.



JuicyG said:


> _Interception feats are ultimately speed feats._
> 
> *Example -*
> 
> If *K* were about to attack *J* at point blank range & *Z* was 100 meters away at the start of *K'*s attack, but manages to cross the 100 meters in time to block *K'*s attack from hitting* J*, then that ultimately is a speed feat.



Unless K and J are attacking/dodging each other, it is impossible to gauge their speed. 
Anything done offcombat isn't an actual feat, which is the case for Z in this example. He is outside combat.


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## Saybel (Oct 28, 2014)

Didn't Bee dispel Sauce's Tsukuyomi via Bijuu partner method?

It could of been regular genjutsu though, so forgive me if I was mistaken. I've not seen that panel in quite a few years and it's too early in the morning for me to go and search for it.


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## TheGreen1 (Oct 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato's ability to use bijuudama isn't in the manga, though. Like... thats the whole point
> The dude had BM, and he still used a regular rasengan. That is enough evidence to conclude that he can't. Lets leave it at that.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats Bijuu Avatar Mode, not KCM.
> KCM Naruto couldn't use Bijuudama either. He tried a couple of times and failed.



Changed your tune real quick didn't you?
So you've conceded the above that Minato CAN use a Bijudama, and the uppermost statement was fallacy. That's alright, concession accepted.

I never stated that KCM Minato could use a Bijudama, or even a Bijudama Rasengan. I only said he could use a BM Shroud and make a huge Rasengan. I am willing to admit I could have maybe made the Rasengan part clearer, but here it is.



> To be honest ueharakk, I haven't seen Minato use a Bijudama Rasengan. However, he CAN make a huge one, and use the BM Chakra Shroud. Good enough for me. I'd assume he could at least make a tailed beast bomb.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats Bijuu Avatar Mode, not KCM.
> KCM Naruto couldn't use Bijuudama either. He tried a couple of times and failed.



Unless I misread what you said, I was under the impression that you claimed minato had never used a tailed beast bomb, which he did.

If that's not what you said the excuse my mistake. I know KCM Naruto can't use a tbb, it's not physically possible to hold such dense and heavy amount of chakra, as Dodai already said.

However Naruto overcame that by making a miniature version. Killer/8 stails said you the first move you learn when you become a perfect Jinchuuriki is the tailed beast bomb. Notice how after Naruto became a perfect Jin, without any training (literally in the midst of battle) he was suddenly able to create a mini tailed beast bomb.

All that is required is KCM and perfect chakra control to use a mini tailed beast bomb. Both of which minato has. At the time when Naruto first used a mini tailed beast bomb, he still required a clone to help form it like a rasengan. And we know Minatos chakra control is better than that because he has alway used the rasengan with a single hand and he is able to share chakra long before Naruto learned to (and Naruto can only do it with Kurama).

So all minato has to do is form a rasengan in KCM and he'll be able to make a mini tbb. He has all the requirements to and more.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## TheGreen1 (Oct 28, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Unless I misread what you said, I was under the impression that you claimed minato had never used a tailed beast bomb, which he did.
> 
> If that's not what you said the excuse my mistake. I know KCM Naruto can't use a tbb, it's not physically possible to hold such dense and heavy amount of chakra, as Dodai already said.
> 
> ...



No, you didn't misread it. That's what he said. I have it in my post above yours.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 28, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Unless I misread what you said, I was under the impression that you claimed minato had never used a tailed beast bomb, which he did.
> 
> If that's not what you said the excuse my mistake. I know KCM Naruto can't use a tbb, it's not physically possible to hold such dense and heavy amount of chakra, as Dodai already said.
> 
> ...



But if he could, then he certainly would, wouldn't he ?



TheGreen1 said:


> Changed your tune real quick didn't you?
> So you've conceded the above that Minato CAN use a Bijudama, and the uppermost statement was fallacy. That's alright, concession accepted.
> 
> I never stated that KCM Minato could use a Bijudama, or even a Bijudama Rasengan. I only said he could use a BM Shroud and make a huge Rasengan. I am willing to admit I could have maybe made the Rasengan part clearer, but here it is.



The context of our conversation with Ueharakk was always bijuudama rasengan. I was referring to it when I said "Bijuudama."

What Minato can do with the Kyuubi Avatar is irrelevant here, he is restricted to KCM.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But if he could, then he certainly would, wouldn't he ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It was his first time using KCM in this war. He didn't do a lot of things. At first he couldn't even use chakra arms or Bijuu mode. But by the time Juubito was defeated, he was creating giant arms, sprouting all 9 extra long tails at once. 

He didn't even use a regular rasengan once while in KCM, doesn't mean he couldn't, it just wasn't very useful against the opponent he was facing. Naruto also didn't use the mini tbb a giant Juubito. Minato could've used sage mode while in BM but didn't. There are a lot of things characters "should've done" but kishi never gives them the opportunity, it's happened throughout this entire manga, especially in Shippuden.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 28, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> It was his first time using KCM in this war. He didn't do a lot of things. At first he couldn't even use chakra arms or Bijuu mode. But by the time Juubito was defeated, he was creating giant arms, sprouting all 9 extra long tails at once.
> 
> He didn't even use a regular rasengan once while in KCM, doesn't mean he couldn't, it just wasn't very useful against the opponent he was facing. Naruto also didn't use the mini tbb a giant Juubito. Minato could've used sage mode while in BM but didn't. There are a lot of things characters "should've done" but kishi never gives them the opportunity, it's happened throughout this entire manga, especially in Shippuden.



If he could he would still applies though. Like if he could use SM with BM, then he surely would use it, rather than ask Naruto to do it for him. 

And if your point is "Minato has gotten better with BM as the fight progressed" then I'll buy it, ok, but he hasn't gotten to the point where he was able to create a bijuudama rasengan. Like you said, he wasn't able to use chakra arms @ the start, but then when they were pulling the bijuu out he helped with a chakra arm.

So this confirms that there are things he couldn't do @ certain points. Bijuudama rasengan was never used.


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## Freechoice (Oct 28, 2014)

I like the cut of your jib Grimmjowsensei


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 28, 2014)

^
Thanks, I try.


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## TheGreen1 (Oct 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The context of our conversation with Ueharakk was always bijuudama rasengan. I was referring to it when I said "Bijuudama."



Don't give me that Grimmjowsensei. I've quoted you once more, since you seem to skip over it.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato's ability to use bijuudama isn't in the manga, though. Like... thats the whole point



You said Bijudama in that quote above. Not Bijudama Rasengan. Just Bijudama. Your quote states you didn't believe he could use the bijudama, period. I called you out on it. Own up to it instead of trying to backtrack.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 28, 2014)

Minato wins this easily. He knows that Itachi is Sasuke's older brother and he's seen Sasuke's prowess with Amaterasu and Susanoo and knows that Uchiha are famous for Sharingan(this man was the Hokage). And he isn't getting hit by Itachi at all. Won't happen. At 100 meters that gives him the ability to leave a kunai behind to redirect huge attacks he can't dodge(I can't think of any Itachi has that would pose a threat) and to where he can teleport back to it if need be. Then he goes to meet Itachi and will reach Itachi rather quickly probably by the time Itachi moves 10meters(Minato crossed the Leaf Village and outran an explosion, his footspeed is tiers above Itachis' Shunshin). Then is over, Minato uses Rasen Senkō Chō Rinbukō Sanshiki and solos.

petrify  results due to imbalance(<50% nature energy)

A technique hyped so much, stated to be used atleast twice and was always circumvented for some other bullshit like Obito regaining control, yet never shown.

Minato can use Bijuudama, he helped Naruto which means it can balance the chakra types needed.

Minato can teleport Susanoo off of Itachi or teleport inside it. He just has to place a seal on Susanoo's body then teleport in it and smash an unsuspecting Itachi with Rasengan then places a sealing tag.

Itachi does have the advantage in a long term fight though since he is edo. But I see Minato being able to place a sealing tag before Itachi lands an attack.

Minato 10/10 high diff.


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## Turrin (Oct 28, 2014)

This is an unbalanced thread plain and simply. Amaterasu is useless against KCM-Minato. All of Itachi's Genjutsu is useless, except perhaps Tsukuyomi, but landing a Genjutsu on someone with two types of sensing, ability to spam KB, and is extremely fast/reflexive is an insanely tall order, and even than Kurama may be able to break Minato free. Beyond that KCM-Minato is too fast for any of Itachi's attacks, and KCM-Minato has a myriad of ways of defeating Itachi, not the least of which simply being outlasting him with vastly superior chakra reserves. Minato will take this mid to low diff.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 28, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> Don't give me that Grimmjowsensei. I've quoted you once more, since you seem to skip over it.
> 
> 
> 
> You said Bijudama in that quote above. Not Bijudama Rasengan. Just Bijudama. Your quote states you didn't believe he could use the bijudama, period. I called you out on it. Own up to it instead of trying to backtrack.



Like I said, I was replying to Ueharakk's Bijuudama rasengan comment. When I said Bijuudama, I was talkin about this : petrify  results due to imbalance(<50% nature energy)


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## ueharakk (Oct 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato's ability to use bijuudama isn't in the manga, though. Like... thats the whole point
> The dude had BM, and he still used a regular rasengan. That is enough evidence to conclude that he can't. Lets leave it at that.


....minato and naruto created a combined bijuudama....  

if minato was incapable of creating a bijuudama on his own, or incapable of balancing the 8:2 chakra ratio, then he would have messed up the bijuudama and it would have dispersed just like every time naruto got the chakra ratio wrong during his training.

Then there's the fact that if you're in KCM and try to make a rasengan like you normally do in base, you end up making a bijuudama rasengan.

Minato simply opting to start off the assault with a rasengan has nothing to do with his inability to create a bijuudama.  SM Naruto opted to use a normal rasengan against juubito, it doesn't mean that he's incapable of using more powerful techniques.

So once again, unless you want to attack my arguments, simply saying that minato never used a bijuudama in the manga isn't relevant.   Unless you believe that a character is incapable of doing anything that they haven't done in a manga panel.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If he could he would still applies though. Like if he could use SM with BM, then he surely would use it, rather than ask Naruto to do it for him.
> 
> And if your point is "Minato has gotten better with BM as the fight progressed" then I'll buy it, ok, but he hasn't gotten to the point where he was able to create a bijuudama rasengan. Like you said, he wasn't able to use chakra arms @ the start, but then when they were pulling the bijuu out he helped with a chakra arm.
> 
> So this confirms that there are things he couldn't do @ certain points. Bijuudama rasengan was never used.



Your first point is so invalid. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you need to:
- minato could've used shadow clones against the masked man, which would've proved helpful, but he didn't feel the need to. (Because of this, for so long people said minato didn't know the jutsu , but of course that was proved wrong).
- minato has an element but he's never used it. Just because he has it doesn't mean he needs to use it.
- he didn't use sage mode against Juubito because he was already preparing the giant rasengan, while Naruto was preparing his sage mode. And since Naruto is faster at it than minato, it only made sense that minato need not bother. It was much faster to just combine their techniques instead of minato wasting time doing something that would've made zero difference.

Other characters have done this multiple times in the manga where they don't do something that they could've have. That's just kishi being kishi. Remember when Kakashi could've one shotted Kakuzu with kamui, but didn't and almost got himself killed? Kakashi did the same against pain.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 28, 2014)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Your first point is so invalid. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you need to:


Actually, it is a pretty valid point most of the time. 



> - minato could've used shadow clones against the masked man, which would've proved helpful, but he didn't feel the need to. (Because of this, for so long people said minato didn't know the jutsu , but of course that was proved wrong).


Yes, but if he implied that he couldn't use Kagebunshins, then yes people would assume he wouldn't be able to. Like for example, if he asked someone else to do a kagebunshin to assist him, then logically we'd assume that he wouldn't be able to use kagebunshin.



> - minato has an element but he's never used it. Just because he has it doesn't mean he needs to use it.


But we can conclude that the jutsu he can use with that element isn't stronger than rasengan, or other jutsu he used. Because if it was stronger, then he'd probably use it in situations he put his life on the line.



> - he didn't use sage mode against Juubito because he was already preparing the giant rasengan, while Naruto was preparing his sage mode. And since Naruto is faster at it than minato, it only made sense that minato need not bother. It was much faster to just combine their techniques instead of minato wasting time doing something that would've made zero difference.


Or he couldn't. I'll take that answer instead, much simpler and makes more sense.



> Other characters have done this multiple times in the manga where they don't do something that they could've have. That's just kishi being kishi. Remember when Kakashi could've one shotted Kakuzu with kamui, but didn't and almost got himself killed? Kakashi did the same against pain.



Minato implied he couldn't though, asking Naruto for help.  Kakashi also couldn't oneshot Kakuzu with Kamui, because @ that point in the manga Kamui was a risky technique that wasn't a guaranteed hit. Kakashi tried to oneshot Deidara but failed both times.
Best you can argue is that, Kakashi couldn't find the right opportunity to use Kamui.



ueharakk said:


> ....minato and naruto created a combined bijuudama....
> 
> if minato was incapable of creating a bijuudama on his own, or incapable of balancing the 8:2 chakra ratio, then he would have messed up the bijuudama and it would have dispersed just like every time naruto got the chakra ratio wrong during his training.
> 
> ...



The difference is, which is pretty god damn huge, Naruto used Bijuudama in KCM. He has shown that he is capable. There are no assumptions there.

In Minato's case, you are assuming that he can use it. And I am just assuming that he can't. With practice he could, but just because Naruto was able to, doesn't mean Minato could either. Minato 's experience with BM is alot more limited than Naruto's. Naruto went through extensive training and gauntlet of battles to reach his max potential. And he is a better rasengan user than Minato.
There is that too.


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## JuicyG (Oct 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> This is an unbalanced thread plain and simply. Amaterasu is useless against KCM-Minato. All of Itachi's Genjutsu is useless, except perhaps Tsukuyomi, but landing a Genjutsu on someone with two types of sensing, ability to spam KB, and is extremely fast/reflexive is an insanely tall order, and even than Kurama may be able to break Minato free. Beyond that KCM-Minato is too fast for any of Itachi's attacks, and KCM-Minato has a myriad of ways of defeating Itachi, not the least of which simply being outlasting him with vastly superior chakra reserves. Minato will take this mid to low diff.




I'm leaning towards this. Except I don't think its all that unbalanced, but rather a tighter squeeze. But all in all I see KCM Minato > Edo Itachi, after reading through all sides.


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## ueharakk (Oct 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The difference is, which is pretty god damn huge, Naruto used Bijuudama in KCM. He has shown that he is capable. There are no assumptions there.


What in the world does that have to do with my argument?  Am I arguing that Naruto can't use a bijuudama and minato can?  If we have more evidence that one person can use X jutsu than we have that another person can use X jutsu, does that in anyway shape or form mean that the second person CAN'T use that jutsu?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> In Minato's case, you are assuming that he can use it. And I am just assuming that he can't. With practice he could, but just because Naruto was able to, doesn't mean Minato could either. Minato 's experience with BM is alot more limited than Naruto's. Naruto went through extensive training and gauntlet of battles to reach his max potential. And he is a better rasengan user than Minato.
> There is that too.


That's again a straight up concession on your part, as the argument that I've given you multiple times in this thread show why Minato doesn't need more experience, it doesn't matter if his experience is more limited than naruto's, doesn't need more practice, and doesn't have to go through the extensive training naruto went through in order to use bijuudama rasengan.  So when you assert those things despite my argument showing that they are irrelevant, then you're guilty of just ignoring my argument and an ignored argument is a conceded one.

I'm not assuming minato can use it, I literally spelled out a long argument that showed you what the manga states are the requirements in order to use it, and how minato fulfills those requirements.

Therefore when I assert that Minato can use it, I have an argument that shows he can, it's not just an assumption, and considering you've haven't been able to even address that argument, rather ignore it and just call the conclusion of my argument an assumption, it's just more proof at how compelling that argument is.  My argument shows how minato with whatever experience and skill with BM/KCM he had, doesn't need any more practice in order to use the attack as he fullfills the two requirements: 
1) able to perform rasengan in base
2) able to balance 8:2 chakra ratio

When naruto used kcm for the first time, the only reason he didn't immediately pull off bijuudama rasengan was because he didn't have the second step down.  Minato has shown he has the second step down, and therefore he pulls off bijuudama rasengan.

On the otherhand, when you assert minato can't use it, the only argument that you use to back up that assertion is that minato has never used it.

So once again, unless you can go back and address the points in my argument that you find fallacious, then simply saying the conclusions that my argument reaches are 'an assumption' is in no way shape or form a counterargumet, is also you literally ignoring my argument since the argument itself proves that my assertion isn't just an assumption, and it would be you tacitly conceding the argument.

I mean, this is getting ridiculous grimm, this is debating 101, you assert something and back it up with an argument.  If you don't agree with the assertion, you have to show how the argument is fallacious or less probable than the alternative.


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## LeBoyka (Oct 29, 2014)

*Minato wins this more times than not.*

a.) Minato makes a clone.
b.) Both spread kunais around and at Itachi and his Susanoo
c.) Clone makes suicidal contact with Susanoo, marking it.
d.) Minato either warps Susanoo away and then FTGs to Itachi and blitzing him, OR he FTGs inside and blows his head off with a point-blank Rasengan. _Then he proceeds to seal him with sealing tags before he regenerates._
e.) Itachi doesn't stand much of a chance against someone he can barely track or hit. Especially if that someone can get by his defenses easily.

*All of this happens within seconds.*

PS: Genjutsu won't land on someone like Minato. Never has, never will (Unless it's infinite Tsyukiomi; however you spell it.).


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