# Narutoverse vs Gatts (Berserk)



## Hagen (Jan 12, 2007)

Gatts (Guts,Gatsu) is gonna face the Naruto ninjas in bloody 1 v 1 matches. 
After each battle, he'll recover completely and advance to the next opponent 

He'll fight the following characters (all post-ts) in the next order:


01- Sakura
02- Shikamaru (normal)
03- Kiba
04- Rock Lee 
05- Naruto (no kyuubi)
06- Neji (normal)
07- Sasuke 
08- Kabuto 
09- Asuma
10- Gai (normal)
11- Kimimaro (sick)
12- Kakashi
13- Hidan
14- Broken Shikamaru (with PIS aura + telepathy + unreasonable reflexes)
15- Sasori
16- Kakuzu
17- Itachi
18- Orochimaru
19- KN4 
20- KN9
21- Uber Gai (with moustache/afro)
22- Yamato with KWGOD
23- Neji (with golden byakugam)
24- Aoba
25- Kimimaro (healthy  )


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now the question: how far could go...

1- Pre-eclipse Gatts

2- Post-eclipse Gatts (with dragonslayer + special arm)

3- Berserker armor Gatts


----------



## Sasori (Jan 12, 2007)

Don't care about the rest, but he will be stopped by these:

14- Broken Shikamaru (with PIS aura + telepathy + unreasonable reflexes)
21- Uber Gai (with moustache/afro)
22- Yamato with KWGOD
23- Neji (with golden byakugam)
24- Aoba


----------



## chibbi-kitsune (Jan 12, 2007)

Sasori said:


> Don't care about the rest, but he will be stopped by these:
> 
> 14- Broken Shikamaru (with PIS aura + telepathy + unreasonable reflexes)
> 21- Uber Gai (with moustache/afro)
> ...




02- Shikamaru (normal)
04- Rock Lee
07- Sasuke
08- Kabuto
10- Gai (normal)
12- Kakashi
13- Hidan
14- Broken Shikamaru (with PIS aura + telepathy + unreasonable reflexes)
15- Sasori
16- Kakuzu
17- Itachi
18- Orochimaru
19- KN4
20- KN9
21- Uber Gai (with moustache/afro)
22- Yamato with KWGOD
23- Neji (with golden byakugam)
24- Aoba
25- Kimimaro (healthy )

All of these will stop him in my opinion.


----------



## Codde (Jan 12, 2007)

chibbi-kitsune said:


> 02- Shikamaru (normal)
> 04- Rock Lee
> 07- Sasuke
> 08- Kabuto
> ...


I don't see how Kimimaro, Rock lee, Sasuke, or Aoba would stop him.


----------



## MdB (Jan 13, 2007)

Gutts post-eclipse killed an apostle that can break through the sound barrier, sasuke, rock lee, kimmimaro still need to show speed feats on that level.


----------



## Goodfellow (Jan 13, 2007)

He kills all of em.

My fanboyism is unquestionable!!

Seriously though, Shikamaru might be a problem, becouse Guts will have problems to close in. And I doubt any ninja would fall for a easy trick like a dagger throw.

Kn4-9 might be pretty much impossibel to take on, unless Guts is able to cut though the aura at the host (not impossible, considering that it was probably hidan who took down nibi, who had traits not all that different from the kyuubi). The kn9 though might simply be to massive to cut through.


Also, anyone able to create a decent body of water might also be able to take on Guts, becouse he'd sink like a rock.


I used berserk armor when pondering about this, and I'm still biased in favor of Guts.


----------



## Neji (Jan 13, 2007)

Pre-eclipse- would be defeated by
21- Uber Gai (with moustache/afro)
22- Yamato with KWGOD
23- Neji (with golden byakugam)


Post Eclipse and Berserker armour would destroy every single one of them


----------



## Blue (Jan 13, 2007)

There's too many variables; Everyone listed here could kill him under the right circumstances. I'd say Sasuke is where it starts to get impossible for Gutts.

In Berserk, pretty much everything he fights could've killed him easily. Gutts wins with a combination of intelligence, determination, and what we'd call plot no jutsu. 
He has no plot no jutsu for these fights, many of these people (Shika, Sasuke, Sakura) are way smarter than him, and if he gets Sakura's punch or Sasuke's Kusanagi lightsaber in his face, determination won't mean anything.


----------



## Neji (Jan 13, 2007)

Blue said:
			
		

> There's too many variables; Everyone listed here could kill him under the right circumstances. I'd say Sasuke is where it starts to get impossible for Gutts.
> 
> In Berserk, pretty much everything he fights could've killed him easily. Gutts wins with a combination of intelligence, determination, and what we'd call plot no jutsu.
> He has no plot no jutsu for these fights, many of these people (Shika, Sasuke, Sakura) are way smarter than him, and if he gets Sakura's punch or Sasuke's Kusanagi lightsaber in his face, determination won't mean anything.


 
I'd have to say that I don't think that a Sakura punch would do much damage to him. Even early on in the manga, we've seen him take much harder hits and getting flung through pillars ect..
Also, Sasuke's sword won't be much of a factor either imo, we've also seen him get direct hits by lightning as well. The only thing that might be a trouble for him is that Sasuke will be able to predict his moves.

Berserker Armor is just on a different league than them in speed and power. Most jutsu wont work on him or be able to penetrate the armor. The only thing that can possibly stop hi is Shikamaru's Kage Mane, in which i also think he would be way too powerful in order for him to keep him in that position anyway, since we've seen many powerful people who were able to move or escape from his jutsu


----------



## earthshine (Jan 13, 2007)

narutoverse takes this rather easily.


gatts may be a total badass, but in terms of fighting ability there are many naruto characters that completly outstripe him.



in terms of this fight, it will most llikely stop at kabuto(although, if it's post-skip, sasuke still might be to much for gatts).


----------



## Limit_Tester (Jan 13, 2007)

Berserker Guts should beat all of them, with the possible exception of KN9.

And maybe the PIS Shikamaru.


----------



## kenpachibankai (Jan 13, 2007)

chibbi-kitsune said:


> 02- Shikamaru (normal)
> 04- Rock Lee
> 07- Sasuke
> 08- Kabuto
> ...



...Wait a second...we're talking about Gatsu right? The guy who's fighting the God Hand or something now? If so then not many of those would be enough to slow him down. The only one's who could win at this point would be.

14- Broken Shikamaru (with PIS aura + telepathy + unreasonable reflexes)
21- Uber Gai (with moustache/afro)
22- Yamato with KWGOD
23- Neji (with golden byakugam)


----------



## Sasori (Jan 13, 2007)

Code said:


> I don't see how Kimimaro, Rock lee, Sasuke, or *Aoba* would stop him.


Ask Spectrum


----------



## Goodfellow (Jan 13, 2007)

Blue said:


> There's too many variables; Everyone listed here could kill him under the right circumstances. I'd say Sasuke is where it starts to get impossible for Gutts.
> 
> In Berserk, pretty much everything he fights could've killed him easily. Gutts wins with a combination of intelligence, determination, and what we'd call plot no jutsu.
> He has no plot no jutsu for these fights, many of these people (Shika, Sasuke, Sakura) are way smarter than him, and if he gets Sakura's punch or Sasuke's Kusanagi lightsaber in his face, determination won't mean anything.



You call, *cough**Sasuke* smarter than Guts ?
PurrrrrrlEASE.
Guts has proven himself to atleast be in leel with Sakura when it comes to battle tactics. Hell, he might even be in the same level as Naruto (who's the number 2 battle tactician, after Shika, BELIVE IT)

Seriously though, there are pretty few attacks that could get through the berserk armor. Fire for instance would quite likly not bother Guts one bit.

Also, I'll make a claim. I say that Guts in a berserk armor is as fast or possibly slightly faster than the avarage ninja. And he's certanly stronger.

Sasuke would get it, in teh ass


----------



## Orochimaru (Jan 13, 2007)

Gatts is very vulnerable to Genjutsu. He has so many fucked up memories that Sasuke can exploit with a Genjutsu, which would leave Gatts in a pool of his own tears and piss. Sasuke will then proceed to slice his head off, nice and clean, with his sword. ^_^


----------



## Goodfellow (Jan 13, 2007)

Orochimaru said:


> Gatts is very vulnerable to Genjutsu. He has so many fucked up memories that Sasuke can exploit with a Genjutsu, which would leave Gatts in a pool of his own tears and piss. Sasuke will then proceed to slice his head off, nice and clean, with his sword. ^_^



Genjutsus is indeed one of Guts weaknesses. There is one thing though. Guts does not cry, Guts roar, and chops the head of stuff 

Also, if Guts goes berserk, then it's questionable if he would be affected by the genjutsu, cuz his chakra, chi whatever is already messed up like hell.


----------



## kenpachibankai (Jan 13, 2007)

> Gatts is very vulnerable to Genjutsu. He has so many fucked up memories that Sasuke can exploit with a Genjutsu, which would leave Gatts in a pool of his own tears and piss. Sasuke will then proceed to slice his head off, nice and clean, with his sword. ^_^



WTF? Gattsu is nothing close to an EMO bitch like Sasuke! Even if Sasu had all the Genjutsu in the world it wouldn't change that. Gatsu would even Beat the shit outa Itachi in side MS! That's how Badass and resilliant to all forms of torture he is.


----------



## Orochimaru (Jan 13, 2007)

The_Teacher said:


> Genjutsus is indeed one of Guts weaknesses. There is one thing though. Guts does not cry, Guts roar, and chops the head of stuff



When Gatts goes under the effect of Sasuke's Genjutsu, Sasuke will be able to show him things that will bring him to his knees. Prime example; Sai -an emotionless shinobi- fell on his ass with emotions of fear that he has never experienced before. So even if Gatts has never cried before, Sasuke will make it happen.



The_Teacher said:


> Also, if Guts goes berserk, then it's questionable if he would be affected by the genjutsu, cuz his chakra, chi whatever is already messed up like hell.



The more his chakra/chi is messed up, the more the Genjutsu is effective. Remember that the only way to dispel the effects of a Genjutsu, is to have *total *control of your chakra flow, and stopping it from going to your head. Which means the more berserk Gatts becomes, the more it works to Sasuke's advantage. 

Gatts strength becomes his weakness when facing Sasuke. It's very unfair if you ask me, but let me paraphrase Kakashi; "It's just that you got matched up against the wrong opponent and now you're gonna die!"


----------



## kenpachibankai (Jan 13, 2007)

> When Gatts goes under the effect of Sasuke's Genjutsu, Sasuke will be able to show him things that will bring him to his knees. Prime example; Sai -an emotionless shinobi- fell on his ass with emotions of fear that he has never experienced before. So even if Gatts has never cried before, Sasuke will make it happen.



Sorry, won't happen to Gattsu, EVER!


----------



## Orochimaru (Jan 13, 2007)

kenpachibankai said:


> WTF? Gattsu is nothing close to an EMO bitch like Sasuke! Even if Sasu had all the Genjutsu in the world it wouldn't change that.



Sure, but neither was Kakashi nor Sai. Yet both Itachi and Sasuke -respectively- managed to mindfuck them as if they were little EMO bitches.


----------



## Pipboy (Jan 13, 2007)

The berserker armor radically alters the flow of Od in Guts body, changing it to resemble something inhuman.  his perception of the world is radically altered such that the only thing he percieves are threats.    Genjutsu is disrupted by chaos in the chakra around the brain.  Assuming equivalency, the Berserker armor will do two things.  First is that it will immunize him from genjutsu, and it will overwhelm attacks like the shadow bind.

But lets talk about illusions.   Gatts has a vision of his past, he sees farneze about to be raped and has an eclipse flashback.  What is his response?   "Thanks, before I was fighting to survive, now, I have till dawn to KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF YOU FUCKERS!"

His entire life has been like one unending cruel illusion.   He is the struggler and the pain and torment he has endured is only matched by the Nameless One.  His willpower is unlike that of anyone in the narutoverse, and he is a killer born and bred, fighting since he was old enough to hold a weapon.   his killer instinct makes orochimaru's look like a childs attempt at humor.   

Not to mention he is fast and there is nothing in that list that can shrug off/survive a blow from the dragon slayer,  even KN4/9.   The dragon slayer is a weapon of dark power, the thousands upon thousands of demons and men that have lost thier lives to it make it capable of killing ANYTHING, evena  god.

Finally, in addition to the superhuman power the armor gives him, Guts lives in the hazama, the shallow ethereal where belief and feeling subtly warps reality, due to his branding.   Thus his rage literally fuels his strength and power and will to live brings him back from injuries that would kill a man.

There are a few people that might win, but nothing is certain.


----------



## Orochimaru (Jan 13, 2007)

Pipboy said:
			
		

> Genjutsu is disrupted by chaos in the chakra around the brain


. 

It's the other way around actually. And if the chakra is already chaotic in the mind and body, then the effect of the Genjutsu is exponentially amplified. I explained that in my previous post, but nevertheless, I will provide visual proof. 




I'm sorry that you wasted so much time typing that garbage though. It's just that your logic was flawed from the get-go. ^__*




vlaaad12345 said:


> sasuke didnt mind fuck sai what drugs are you on,and itachi used ms which sasuke doesnt have so i dont see how thats relevant.



LOL. You seriously need to read or re-read the manga(s) before you enter such discussions. Have a cookie.


----------



## Neji (Jan 13, 2007)

Pipboy got it, when Gutts is in Berserker armor form, he is pretty much on rampage mode, Genjutsu wont work on him.


----------



## Goodfellow (Jan 13, 2007)

Pipboy said:


> The berserker armor radically alters the flow of Od in Guts body, changing it to resemble something inhuman.  his perception of the world is radically altered such that the only thing he percieves are threats.    Genjutsu is disrupted by chaos in the chakra around the brain.  Assuming equivalency, the Berserker armor will do two things.  First is that it will immunize him from genjutsu, and it will overwhelm attacks like the shadow bind.
> 
> But lets talk about illusions.   Gatts has a vision of his past, he sees farneze about to be raped and has an eclipse flashback.  What is his response?   "Thanks, before I was fighting to survive, now, I have till dawn to KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF YOU FUCKERS!"
> 
> ...



My god, that was beautiful


----------



## Orion (Jan 13, 2007)

Orochimaru said:


> .
> 
> It's the other way around actually. And if the chakra is already chaotic in the mind and body, then the effect of the Genjutsu is exponentially amplified. I explained that in my previous post, but nevertheless, I will provide visual proof.
> 
> ...


i dont need to re read shit iv read the manga many times,he used a genjutsu and put sai on his ass and thats about it there was no mind raping or anything involved,sasuke has never used genjutsu in the middle of battle nor has he ever fought someone on the level of berserker armor guts.


----------



## Orochimaru (Jan 13, 2007)

vlaaad12345 said:


> *i dont need to re read shit iv read the manga many times*,he used a genjutsu and put sai on his ass and thats about it there was no mind raping or anything involved,*sasuke has never used genjutsu in the middle of battle* nor has he ever fought someone on the level of berserker armor guts.




Dude, you seriously need to read the manga, at least once. Kyuubi suppression? During the fight against Team Yamato? Genjutsu levels don't go much higher than that. Wouldn't you agree?


----------



## Pipboy (Jan 13, 2007)

Orochimaru, you do remember the whole Jiraya explains genjutsu to naruto right?    Nice try.   I would suggest you pay more attention to the manga you seem to love.

He says "genjutsu works by controling the chakra in the brain using one of the five senses as an inroad.  To break a genjutsu you create turbulence in the chakra around your head".

Rin's chakra was in an unnatural not chaotic pattern.


----------



## Neji (Jan 13, 2007)

if anything, the only ones who may be able to match Berserker Armor Gutts is moustache/afro Gai and YAMATO WOOD. 

but they would still get beat eventually imo


----------



## Orion (Jan 13, 2007)

so you neg rep  me for what?going against you in argument which you havnt shown anything at all that sasuke is near itachi in being able to mind rape people,he didnt shut down sai's mind,and the berserker armor isnt  kyuubi,you have yet to show that he could do it to guts.


----------



## Pipboy (Jan 13, 2007)

Kyuubi supression isn't a genjutsu.  Its a bloodline.  Its kishimoto masturbating to the sharingan, as well as a plot device to stop naruto from tailing it out and killing that emo prick.


----------



## Neji (Jan 13, 2007)

LOL sasuke has never used Genjutsu


----------



## Orion (Jan 13, 2007)

wow i re read it again for about the 15th time and it still proves what?sasuke still doesnt have ungodly genjutsu or mind raping abilties like ms,and guts wouldnt be affected by genjutsu anyways so you can take your neg rep and your cookie and shove it up your ass.


----------



## Orochimaru (Jan 13, 2007)

Pipboy said:


> Orochimaru, you do remember the whole Jiraya explains genjutsu to naruto right?
> 
> He says "genjutsu works by controling the chakra in the brain using one of the five senses as an inroad.  *To break a genjutsu you create turbulence in the chakra around your head*".



It's glaringly obvious that you have misunderstood what Jiraya explained and/or you're taking what he said out of context to gain leverage in this argument. This would work against someone who doesn't know what the fuck he's saying, someone like "Golden Byakugan" Neji here, or vlaad.

To paraphrase Jiraya; "To combat the effects of Genjutsu, there are two options. *The first option is for the ninja to stop the flow of chakra in their body, and then apply an even stronger power to disrupt the flow of the casters chakra*. The second option is to have an outside ninja unaffected by the Genjutsu make body contact, and use their chakra to disrupt the casters flow."

Notice how it says "and then", meaning that first the victim should have total control over his chakra to stop its flow, and then he should apply a stronger power to disrupt it. Since Gatts can't control his chakra, basically means that he's fucked.


----------



## Neji (Jan 13, 2007)

i'd also like to point out that the Berserker armor is a completely different midset, so even if Sasuke "mind raped" Gutts himself, the Berserker Armor would still fight



> It's glaringly obvious that you have misunderstood what Jiraya explained and/or you're taking what he said out of context to gain leverage in this argument. This would work against someone who doesn't know what the fuck he's saying, someone like "Golden Byakugan" Neji here, or vlaad.
> 
> To paraphrase Jiraya; "To combat the effects of Genjutsu, there are two options. *The first option is for the ninja to stop the flow of chakra in their body, and then apply an even stronger power to disrupt the flow of the casters chakra*. The second option is to have an outside ninja unaffected by the Genjutsu make body contact, and use their chakra to disrupt the casters flow."
> 
> Notice how it says "and then", meaning that first the victim should have total control over his chakra to stop its flow, and then he should apply a stronger power to disrupt it. Since Gatts can't control his chakra, basically means that he's fucked.


 
you'd also need an extremely high level Genjutsu or chakra amount in order to affect someone alot more stronger and powerful that him


----------



## Orochimaru (Jan 13, 2007)

Pipboy said:


> Kyuubi supression isn't a genjutsu.  Its a bloodline.  Its *kishimoto masturbating to the sharingan*, as well as a plot device to stop naruto from tailing it out and killing that *emo prick*.



LOL. It's very amusing watching you get pissed and starting to insult a fictional character with such hatred and passion. However, in such arguments, you need to be very objective and use logic rather than rabid fanboyism. Which you obviously haven't, ergo, you fail.


----------



## Pipboy (Jan 13, 2007)

Congratulations for telling me exactly what I said and then pretending that that was what you were saying.   It almost worked, but luckily I wasn't drunk out of my mind at that exact moment and instead was high on cocaine.     So no it didn't slip through.

Btw.   Your losing control.


----------



## Neji (Jan 13, 2007)

> LOL. It's very amusing watching you get pissed and starting to insult a fictional character with such hatred and passion. However, in such arguments, you need to be very objective and use logic rather than rabid fanboyism. Which you obviously haven't, ergo, you fail.


 
look who's talking about fanboyism


----------



## Orochimaru (Jan 13, 2007)

Pipboy said:


> Congratulations for telling me exactly what I said and then pretending that that was what you were saying.



Here's what you said in regards to breaking the effects of Genjutsu;



			
				Pipboy said:
			
		

> To break a genjutsu you create turbulence in the chakra around your head".



Here's what I said;



			
				Orochimaru said:
			
		

> To combat the effects of Genjutsu .. is for the ninja to stop the flow of chakra in their body, and then apply an even stronger power to disrupt the flow of the casters chakra.



I even color coded it, so that you can see the difference. ^__*


----------



## Pipboy (Jan 13, 2007)

There is no difference in the two.   Despite your different language the effect is exactly the same.    Turbulence means disruption and chaos.   if genjutsu works by controling the flow of chakra in the brain then by applying external pressure on the control framework you disrupt it.   The pressure comes from your own chakra assualting the walls and matrices via... wait for it.  Turbulence.

Same sheep, same fucking.   Its the welsh vs. New zealand.


----------



## Sasori (Jan 13, 2007)

Orochimaru said:


> The more his chakra/chi is messed up, the more the Genjutsu is effective. Remember that the only way to dispel the effects of a Genjutsu, is to have *total *control of your chakra flow, and stopping it from going to your head. Which means the more berserk Gatts becomes, the more it works to Sasuke's advantage.
> 
> Gatts strength becomes his weakness when facing Sasuke.


This maybe true, but Gatts won't be affected by Genjutsu in the first place for him to dispel anything. You are still ignoring this issue.



Orochimaru said:


> Dude, you seriously need to read the manga, at least once. Kyuubi suppression? During the fight against Team Yamato? Genjutsu levels don't go much higher than that. Wouldn't you agree?


Kyuubi suppression isn't Genjutsu. It was a Sharingan ability to fuck with the Kyuubi.



Pipboy said:


> Orochimaru, you do remember the whole Jiraya explains genjutsu to naruto right?    Nice try.   I would suggest you pay more attention to the manga you seem to love.


The problem for you isn't paying attention to the manga, but to take a objective interpretation from it.

You are clearly ignoring other parts of the manga to benefit Sasuke.

In the same page as Jiraiya explains how to dispel a genjutsu, he explains how genjutsu works. 

He clearly states that: "While in a genjutsu, your mind's chakra is controlled by your opponent."

How would a genjutsu control the chaotic "chakra" of Gatt's, caused by the Beserker Armour.

Gatt's chakra will remain chaotic as long as he has the Beserker Armour. The genjutsu will not override this effect.



> Rin's chakra was in an unnatural not chaotic pattern.


Exactly, showing that her chakra was in control by someone else. It doesn't refute the point that Gatts would be immune to genjutsu. 



Orochimaru said:


> It's glaringly obvious that you have misunderstood what Jiraya explained and/or you're taking what he said out of context to gain leverage in this argument. This would work against someone who doesn't know what the fuck he's saying, someone like "Golden Byakugan" Neji here, or vlaad.
> 
> To paraphrase Jiraya; "To combat the effects of Genjutsu, there are two options. *The first option is for the ninja to stop the flow of chakra in their body, and then apply an even stronger power to disrupt the flow of the casters chakra*. The second option is to have an outside ninja unaffected by the Genjutsu make body contact, and use their chakra to disrupt the casters flow."
> 
> Notice how it says "and then", meaning that first the victim should have total control over his chakra to stop its flow, and then he should apply a stronger power to disrupt it. Since Gatts can't control his chakra, basically means that he's fucked.


You are still ignoring the fact that Gatt's chakra (or the equivilent in this context), would be too radically different from a human being for a Genjutsu to control his mind.


----------



## Hagen (Jan 13, 2007)

Am i the only one who thinks that genjutsu would be cancelled by the od of the berserker armor? It's like Gatts is already under a evil genjutsu when he fights. 

And pipboy had a point, the Dragonslayer can easily kill demons, so im not sure if the Kyuubi would be safe.


----------



## Orochimaru (Jan 13, 2007)

Pipboy said:


> if genjutsu works by controling the flow of chakra in the brain then by applying external pressure on the control framework you disrupt it.



Wrong. I've been trying to explain for the last half hour that not only do you need an external pressure, but you need to be able to stop your chakra flow *before *you can even begin applying the external pressure. Since Gatts doesn't have any chakra control whatsoever, means that the Genjutsu would work on him like no other.


----------



## Crowe (Jan 13, 2007)

Wait...Gutts got betrayed by his best friend who then slaughter all his other friends, watched as his "lover" got raped by his best friend and lost his arm, fought monsters and creature that naruto characters couldn't even imagine...how is an illusion to stop him? Especially in his berserker armor where he can't even see the difference between friends and foe.


----------



## Hagen (Jan 13, 2007)

_Pre eclipse_ Gatts was already strong enough to rip through steel like paper.

Beware of the ¨human windmill¨!


----------



## Orochimaru (Jan 13, 2007)

Sasori said:


> This maybe true, but Gatts won't be affected by Genjutsu in the first place for him to dispel anything. You are still ignoring this issue.



All it takes is one look into Sasuke's eyes. There is no-one immune to Genjutsu, not even the Sandaime. Everyone falls in its effect, now whether Gatts will be able to break the effect is what we're going to discuss as we go. But for you to say he won't be affected by Genjutsu in the first place, that's the first flaw in your logic right there. ^__*




Sasori said:


> Kyuubi suppression isn't Genjutsu. It was a Sharingan ability to fuck with the Kyuubi.



Tsukiyomi is also a "Sharingan" ability, limited only to the Sharingan bearers. Does that mean that Tsukiyomi is not a genjutsu? That's the second flaw in your logic.



Sasori said:


> He clearly states that: "While in a genjutsu, your mind's chakra is controlled by your opponent."
> 
> How would a genjutsu control the chaotic "chakra" of Gatt's, caused by the Beserker Armour.
> 
> Gatt's chakra will remain chaotic as long as he has the Beserker Armour. The genjutsu will not override this effect.



Chaotic chakra is much easier to control than regulated chakra. Simply because what a Genjutsu does is cause turbulence in the victim's chakra flow, causing hallucinations. In Gatts case, to add more turbulence to his already chaotic chakra would cause his mind to implode. That's why I said the effects of Genjutsu on Gatts would be tremendously amplified. The chaos of his chakra is like adding wind to the fire, that is in this case, the Genjutsu spell.



Sasori said:


> You are still ignoring the fact that Gatt's chakra (or the equivilent in this context), would be too radically different from a human being for a Genjutsu to control his mind.



I'm not ignoring a fact, I'm actually addressing that false opinion. The Kyuubi stated that Sasuke's chakra is even more sinister than his own. Which means Sasuke's chakra is the perfect answer to Gatts "radically different" chakra. 

As I said, I'm sorry, but Gatts got matched up against his perfect opponent - Uchiha Sasuke. And I'm sorry that I shot your points down faster than a deer in the opening of the hunting season, Sasori.


----------



## Neji (Jan 13, 2007)

pek the villain said:
			
		

> Wait...Gutts got betrayed by his best friend who then slaughter all his other friends, watched as his "lover" got raped by his best friend and lost his arm, fought monsters and creature that naruto characters couldn't even imagine...how is an illusion to stop him? Especially in his berserker armor where he can't even see the difference between friends and foe.


 
QFT.

Gutts has faced things far worse psychologically than something a Genjutsu, even MS can stir up


----------



## Neji (Jan 13, 2007)

> All it takes is one look into Sasuke's eyes. There is no-one immune to Genjutsu, not even the Sandaime. Everyone falls in its effect, now whether Gatts will be able to break the effect is what we're going to discuss as we go. But for you to say he won't be affected by Genjutsu in the first place, that's the first flaw in your logic right there. ^__*


 
Still this fight also includes GB Neji who is immune to ALL genjutsu, yet he would still get pwned by Gutts, there is no way for Sasuke or Itachi to win if someone a hundred times stronger than them can be beaten so easily


----------



## MdB (Jan 13, 2007)

Tsukiyomi is like heaven compared to the eclipse.


----------



## Sasori (Jan 13, 2007)

Orochimaru said:


> All it takes is one look into Sasuke's eyes. There is no-one immune to Genjutsu, not even the Sandaime.


No limits fallacy.

Gatts is not in Narutoverse, so this statement is void, even if it was stated in the Manga that everyone is susceptible to Genjutsu. Which it doesn't IIRC.



> Everyone falls in its effect, now whether Gatts will be able to break the effect is what we're going to discuss as we go. But for you to say he won't be affected by Genjutsu in the first place, that's the first flaw in your logic right there. ^__*


No, the flaw is that you haven't refuted the point that Gatts will be unaffected by Genjutsu.

You tried to use an invalid speculation to counter this point.



> Tsukiyomi is also a "Sharingan" ability, limited only to the Sharingan bearers. Does that mean that Tsukiyomi is not a genjutsu? That's the second flaw in your logic.


This is flawed.

Tsukiyomi is a genjutsu, but just because one Sharingan ability is a genjutsu, doesn't mean they all are.

Using your flawed logic, Amaterasu, is also a genjutsu.



> Chaotic chakra is much easier to control than regulated chakra. Simply because what a Genjutsu does is cause turbulence in the victim's chakra flow, causing hallucinations.


No it doesn't. Genjutsu is a technique that simply controls the opponents chakra, via one of the 5 senses. This has been stated in the manga.

Your statement of "what a Genjutsu does is cause turbulence in the victim's chakra flow, causing hallucinations", has never been stated and is your own understanding of genjutsu. You would be wrong.

For one thing, Kabuto's genjutsu in the Chuunin exam didn't cause any hallucinations.



> In Gatts case, to add more turbulence to his already chaotic chakra would cause his mind to implode. That's why I said the effects of Genjutsu on Gatts would be tremendously amplified. The chaos of his chakra is like adding wind to the fire, that is in this case, the Genjutsu spell.


This point is void from the above counter.

Genjutsu *does not cause chaos* in the chakra flow of a person. It *controls* it.



> I'm not ignoring a fact, I'm actually addressing that false opinion.


False because you say so?



> The Kyuubi stated that Sasuke's chakra is even more sinister than his own. Which means Sasuke's chakra is the perfect answer to Gatts "radically different" chakra.


This doesn't make sense. Gatts is not Kyuubi.

That Sharingan ability lets Sasuke only have power over Kyuubi, no one else.



> As I said, I'm sorry, but Gatts got matched up against his perfect opponent - Uchiha Sasuke. And I'm sorry that I shot your points down faster than a deer in the opening of the hunting season, Sasori.


Sorry, but I don't see any of my points shot down.

You have used invalid counters. Thank you for playing, and please try again ^_*


----------



## Neji (Jan 13, 2007)

Also pointing out that since Afro Gai, GB Neji, YAMATO WOOD, and some other characters have been added into this fight, naruto canon means shit and it taken over by GB logic, and other logics from the other h4x characters, and in more than 1 instance Uchiha = shit, making both Sasuke and Itachi alot weaker than they may be in the Naruto manga


----------



## Pipboy (Jan 13, 2007)

Orochimaru said:


> All it takes is one look into Sasuke's eyes. There is no-one immune to Genjutsu, not even the Sandaime.



Except the third is a normal being.   Do you think that professor Xavier or the Dark Phoenix can be trapped in a genjutsu.   Are you daft as well as a fantard.   Lets not even talk about the fact that Sasuke hasn't even ever USED a genjutsu just a killing fear atttack.



> Everyone falls in its effect, now whether Gatts will be able to break the effect is what we're going to discuss as we go. But for you to say he won't be affected by Genjutsu in the first place, that's the first flaw in your logic right there. ^__*



Oh wow! you SAID it was SO, that means it MUST BE SO!  WAIT, The sharingan gives a degree of immunity to all genjutsu!  Guess *EVERYONE* isn't vulnerable You failed.... I'm sorry press start to continue.



> Tsukiyomi is also a "Sharingan" ability, limited only to the Sharingan bearers. Does that mean that Tsukiyomi is not a genjutsu? That's the second flaw in your logic.



Amateratsu, Void Zones.   Nice try though.   Yamato has similar abilties to supress the tailed beasts and control them and it has NOTHING to do with genjutsu.   Associative logic tells us to ignore you.



> Chaotic chakra is much easier to control than regulated chakra. Simply because what a Genjutsu does is cause turbulence in the victim's chakra flow, causing hallucinations. In Gatts case, to add more turbulence to his already chaotic chakra would cause his mind to implode. That's why I said the effects of Genjutsu on Gatts would be tremendously amplified. The chaos of his chakra is like adding wind to the fire, that is in this case, the Genjutsu spell.



Way to not only compeltely fabricate a rational but fabricate one that has absolutely no resemblance to reality.   Guess which is easier to control.   A raging inferno or a candle.   A torrential rapids or a placid stream.   A Roaring maelstrom or a light breeze.

Oh how you fail.  By the stars above it is magnificent.




> I'm not ignoring a fact, I'm actually addressing that false opinion. The Kyuubi stated that Sasuke's chakra is even more sinister than his own. Which means Sasuke's chakra is the perfect answer to Gatts "radically different" chakra.



Woot.   Your imagination is AWESOME!  Shierke tried to calm Guts down, what happened? She was nearly torn to pieces by the endless rage.   THEN when she succeded guts became MORE DEADLY.   Yay.  Sasuke is now in even more trouble.



> As I said, I'm sorry, but Gatts got matched up against his perfect opponent - Uchiha Sasuke. And I'm sorry that I shot your points down faster than a deer in the opening of the hunting season, Sasori.



You remind me of the emperor in his new cloths, except the the crowd is laughing at you and you still don't realize your naked.


----------



## Neji (Jan 13, 2007)

Pipboy said:
			
		

> You remind me of the emperor in his new cloths, except the the crowd is laughing at you and you still don't realize your naked.


 
OMG     QFT


----------



## Sasori (Jan 13, 2007)

lol i never thought I would have Pipboy backing me up xD


----------



## Hagen (Jan 13, 2007)

Neji said:


> Also pointing out that since Afro Gai, GB Neji, YAMATO WOOD, and some other characters have been added into this fight, naruto canon means shit and it taken over by GB logic, and other logics from the other h4x characters, and in more than 1 instance Uchiha = shit, making both Sasuke and Itachi alot weaker than they may be in the Naruto manga


Hmm, never thought about it. It means that Itachi will run, Sasuke will shake and Kakashi will be a mere chunnin level.


----------



## Pipboy (Jan 13, 2007)

My rapier knows no allegiance but my opinion, and my opinions are diverse and many.

EDIT:  Well its more like an envenomed battleaxe weilded by sadistic berserker asshole.


----------



## -Dargor- (Jan 13, 2007)

Neji said:
			
		

> Pre-eclipse- would be defeated by
> 21- Uber Gai (with moustache/afro)
> 22- Yamato with KWGOD
> 23- Neji (with golden byakugam)
> ...



I agree with Neji


----------



## Neji (Jan 13, 2007)

> Hmm, never thought about it. It means that Itachi will run, Sasuke will shake and Kakashi will be a mere chunnin level.


 
Exactly, i suggest you change it to jplaya Itachi and add Kisame to Naruverse side in order to make it more fair.



> I agree with Neji


 
thank you


----------



## Rellik (Jan 13, 2007)

Wow genjutsu has shown to be literally the suck, sans itachi's sharingan version.
Genjutsu has been broken by extreme focus, and it causes the victim pain by affecting the mind. 
Gutts in berserk armor (doesn't have to be transformed) does not feel pain. So not only would you have to trap him in a genjutsu you would have to rip off his armor physically off of him to have an effected by it. Good luck with that, without a dragon slayer through your face.

I'd say gutts worst naruto opponent is sasori, as sasori is broken himself on the level of berserker gutts and gutts best ability is to take damage and keep coming. Sasori's ability negate's that.

(This is all without including puck.)


----------



## Neji (Jan 13, 2007)

> Wow genjutsu has shown to be literally the suck, sans itachi's sharingan version.
> Genjutsu has been broken by extreme focus, and it causes the victim pain by affecting the mind.
> Gutts in berserk armor (doesn't have to be transformed) does not feel pain. So not only would you have to trap him in a genjutsu you would have to rip off his armor physically off of him to have an effected by it. Good luck with that, without a dragon slayer through your face.
> 
> ...


 

If you include Puck, Naruverse will last mere seconds


----------



## mystictrunks (Jan 13, 2007)

Jplaya Itachi sends Gatts to a dimension where he's as weak as a kitten and torments him for 89527678536 hours straight.


----------



## Neji (Jan 13, 2007)

ok, dont add jplaya Itachi because then we'll have stupid responses like this


> Jplaya Itachi sends Gatts to a dimension where he's as weak as a kitten and torments him for 89527678536 hours straight.


----------



## Orochimaru (Jan 13, 2007)

Sorry I'm late, I got lost on the road of *life*. Not that you guys would know what it is like to have one. ^__*



Sasori said:


> Gatts is not in Narutoverse, so this statement is void, even if it was stated in the Manga that everyone is susceptible to Genjutsu.



LOL. You're really stupid and naive if you can think you can get away with this crap. Gatts is even more susceptible to Genjutsu *because *he is not from Narutoverse and therefore, wouldn't have the slightest idea that he's under a spell much less try to counter it.



Sasori said:


> No, the flaw is that you haven't refuted the point that Gatts will be unaffected by Genjutsu. You tried to use an invalid speculation to counter this point.



Well now that I've rebutted it, my first statement still stands;



> Everyone falls in its effect, now whether Gatts will be able to break the effect is what we're going to discuss as we go. But for you to say he won't be affected by Genjutsu in the first place, that's the first flaw in your logic right there.



The only way you can prove me wrong on this point, is by providing me with evidence that someone has actually been able to *avoid *falling into a Genjutsu. 



Sasori said:


> This is flawed.Tsukiyomi is a genjutsu, but just because one Sharingan ability is a genjutsu, doesn't mean they all are. Using your flawed logic, Amaterasu, is also a genjutsu.



Amaterasu is a jutsu, a ninjutsu. Tsukiyomi is a jutsu, a Genjutsu. Every "Sharingan ability" like you prefer to call it is a jutsu, whether you like it or not. Now since the Kyuubi supression went down in Naruto's *mind*, I wonder what kind of jutsu would that be? A taijutsu perhaps?  




Sasori said:


> No it doesn't. Genjutsu is a technique that simply controls the opponents chakra, via one of the 5 senses. This has been stated in the manga. *Your statement of "what a Genjutsu does is cause turbulence in the victim's chakra flow*, causing hallucinations",* has never been stated* and is your own understanding of genjutsu. You would be wrong.





Third frame, top row. I mean how much clearer could visual evidence be?! Yet it doesn't surprise me that a GB retard like yourself would choose to ignore it. ^__^



Sasori said:


> For one thing, Kabuto's genjutsu in the Chuunin exam didn't cause any hallucinations.



Kabuto's Genjutsu in the stadium was geared towards making the victim *feel *that he is sleepy. Let's see together what the definition of hallucination means;



			
				Dictionary.com said:
			
		

> Hallucination;
> 
> 1.  a perception of something *(as a visual image or a sound) with no external cause usually arising from a disorder of the nervous system*  or in response to drugs.
> 2.  *illusory perception;* a common symptom of severe mental disorder
> 3.  *a mistaken or unfounded opinion or idea *



This first and second definition prove that a Genjutsu is in fact a hallucination. The third definition proves that Kabuto's Genjutsu also falls under hallucination.  



Sasori said:


> This point is void from the above counter.



All your above "counters" have been shredded to pieces. You might wanna try again.



Sasori said:


> Genjutsu *does not cause chaos* in the chakra flow of a person. It *controls* it.



I don't like to repeat myself. But I guess your intellect is limited to the point where I'll apparently need to repeat myself over and over. Here you go;



Third frame, top row.




Sasori said:


> This doesn't make sense. Gatts is not Kyuubi. That Sharingan ability lets Sasuke only have power over Kyuubi, no one else.



When an *immortal *evil demon that has claimed thousands of souls, states that Sasuke's chakra is more sinister than his own, we (as in the people who have a shred of common sense) believe him. So now you're trying to tell me that chakra as disastrous and ominous and evil (all three words are from the definition of sinister, you might wanna look it up) as Sasuke's, which is even more sinister than the aforementioned immortal demon, is not enough for Gatts? ^__*



Sasori said:


> Sorry, but I don't see any of my points shot down.



I LOL'd. Hard.  



Sasori said:


> You have used invalid counters. Thank you for playing, and please try again ^_*



That's my line, yo.


----------



## Orochimaru (Jan 13, 2007)

Pipboy said:


> Except the third is a normal being.



The third was hailed as *the God *of Shinobi, with intimate knowledge of every jutsu out there. So if anyone in the Narutoverse was able to avoid falling into the effects of a Genjutsu, it would've been him. But obviously he couldn't. ^__*



Pipboy said:


> Do you think that professor Xavier  can be trapped in a genjutsu.



So now you'e comparing professor Xavier's mind skills to those of a Berserk Gatts?! This is most probably the worst comeback on the history of the forums. I'm pretty sure a GB representative is going to break that record like real soon though. ^_^



Pipboy said:


> Lets not even talk about the fact that Sasuke hasn't even ever USED a genjutsu just a *killing fear atttack.*



A killing fear attack?! What the fuck is that supposed to mean?! 

In any case, yes, Sasuke has used Genjutsu twice. Once against Sai, and then against Naruto.





Pipboy said:


> Oh wow! you SAID it was SO, that means it MUST BE SO!  WAIT, The sharingan gives a degree of immunity to all genjutsu!  Guess *EVERYONE* isn't vulnerable You failed.... I'm sorry press start to continue.



I never said that Sharingan gives you immunity. Both Kakashi and Sasuke himself have fallen to the effects of a Genjutsu. Can you please quote where I said the Sharingan gives you immunity against falling into a Genjutsu? Your pathetic attempts at humor are really making you look both pitiful and stupid. ^__<




Pipboy said:


> Amateratsu, Void Zones.   Nice try though.





			
				Orochimaru said:
			
		

> Amaterasu is a jutsu, a ninjutsu. Tsukiyomi is a jutsu, a Genjutsu. Every "Sharingan ability" like you prefer to call it is a jutsu, whether you like it or not. Now since the Kyuubi supression went down in Naruto's mind, I wonder what kind of jutsu would that be? A taijutsu perhaps? LOL.



Some delicious copy pasta from my previous post. Enjoy. 




Pipboy said:


> Way to not only compeltely fabricate a rational but fabricate one that has absolutely no resemblance to reality.   Guess which is easier to control.   A raging inferno or a candle.   A torrential rapids or a placid stream.   A Roaring maelstrom or a light breeze.



Those are really ignorant and irrelevant comparisons to the chakra issue. It's very obvious that you haven't read the Naruto manga, and that's why you try to use such comparisons in an attempt to avoid exposing your ignorance.

The difference between controlled chakra and uncontrolled chakra is huge. The importance of chakra control has been emphasized time and again in the manga. The new Wind Rasengan, that Naruto has just learned, has destructive abilities way beyond reach to the Naruto whose chakra flow was disrupted by Orochimaru's Elemental seal. That wind rasengan would have been impossible to learn if it weren't for very precise chakra control. The simple feat of walking on water is impossible without chakra control. And if it weren't for the fact that Naruto was able to *control *his chakra and stop it's flow when he was under Itachi's Tsukiyomi Genjutsu, he would've been a goner by now.

Therefore controlled chakra, is much greater and more powerful, than uncontrolled chakra. And since Gatts has no control over his chakra whatsoever, he falls as an easy victim to Sasuke's genjutsu.





Pipboy said:


> Woot.   Your imagination is AWESOME!  Shierke tried to calm Guts down, what happened? She was nearly torn to pieces by the endless rage.   THEN when she succeded guts became MORE DEADLY.   Yay.  Sasuke is now in even more trouble.



See above. 

Additionally, Sasuke is impervious to Gatts' physical attacks, simply because his Sharingan allows him to see Gatts' attacks beforehand and counter accordingly. I'm telling you, Sasuke is Gatts' worst matchup. 





Pipboy said:


> You remind me of the emperor in his new cloths, except the the crowd is laughing at you and you still don't realize your naked.



Those petty insults will not give you more leverage, nor will they mask the fact that your logic fails, miserably.


----------



## Crowe (Jan 14, 2007)

> Amaterasu is a jutsu, a ninjutsu. Tsukiyomi is a jutsu, a Genjutsu. Every "Sharingan ability" like you prefer to call it is a jutsu, whether you like it or not. Now since the Kyuubi supression went down in Naruto's *mind*, I wonder what kind of jutsu would that be? A taijutsu perhaps?


So predicting moves is also a jutsu? What kind of jutsu could that be ? Taijutsu? Copying techniques is also a jutsu right?  

It was never stated to be a genjutsu, what proof do you have ? "It happened in his mind so it must be a genjutsu?" Since when can a genjutsu let the user enter peoples minds? Genjutsu creates illusions, it doesn't serve as a way to enter peoples minds at least from what we've seen.


----------



## Limit_Tester (Jan 14, 2007)

Sasuke hits Guts with Tsukiyomi, gets a glance of his past and realizes his life really isn't that bad after all.


----------



## Pipboy (Jan 14, 2007)

Congratulations.   Now you've upgraded to posting and saying nothing at all.   Perhaps you should read your own samesakes manga and then get back when you understand what its saying.


----------



## Goodfellow (Jan 14, 2007)

Now really, are we still at Genjutsu versus Guts?

To begin with, a genjutsu messes up a characters chakra. Or Od in Berserk.
Now the thing is, the berserker armor also meses up ones Od, constantly. So the effect of a genjutsu would be void, becouse the effect of the genjutsu is instantly dispelled by the berserker armor.

Also, if the Sharingan was a perfect tool for dodging, the sharinganusers would never get hit. Funny they get hit though.

Lastly, most of the ninjas fight with very bad weaponry, ever thought of that? The berserker armor could stand getting bitten by enormous monsters in the size of a whale. The ninjas throw garden tools and kick people. That leaves very few choices to hit Guts. Namely high level jutsu attacks like the raikiri. Kisame could also simply drown Guts, if he got the time to perform the attack.

The area where the ninja actually are superior to Guts is in their movment speed. Actually hitting them might prove to be a problem for Guts (especially since the ninjas are adapt at doging thrown objects).

Sasuke's Kusagni might also stand a chance, if it can cut through the Dragonslayer (actually, I don't belive it can, but that's just my personal opinion). But, just cutting though Guts sword isn't enough to defeat Guts. To begin with, I'll just be frank to you. Guts would dodge the rest of the attack that came though the first cut, or he'd just take it like a man (the armor should instantly repair any damage done). Yup, he's that skilled when berserking. Also, he'd probably have a piece fo the Dragonslayer still avaible, not to mention his handcannon and throwing knives. So he can still fight.
It would be even though, just becouse of that damn chidori.


----------



## MdB (Jan 14, 2007)

I'm laughing my ass off. Seriously you talk like the sharringan can predict every movement from anyone. (which it can't) Its a limited pre-cog ability that gives the user a better perception to track fast moving objects.

No limit fallacy ftw!


----------



## Neji (Jan 14, 2007)

Sorry after seeing those last 2 posts, there is no way i can take Orochimaru seriously, i saw some fanboyism worse than jplaya and ando in there


----------



## Sasori (Jan 14, 2007)

Orochimaru said:


> Sorry I'm late, I got lost on the road of *life*. Not that you guys would know what it is like to have one. ^__*


Personal attacks in a debate about a fictional story? Yes, I envy your life indeed.



> LOL. You're really stupid and naive if you can think you can get away with this crap.


Again, I don't see how personal insults rebuttle my arguement. In fact, you have chosen to not quote things from my previous post to avoid the points. 





> Gatts is even more susceptible to Genjutsu *because *he is not from Narutoverse and therefore, wouldn't have the slightest idea that he's under a spell much less try to counter it.


Firstly, being in another universe has no bearing on the susceptibility of the victim to genjutsu. In fact, if you want to argue the susceptibility of genjutsu, then I can equally argue that other universes do not have chakra, therefore genjutsu would not work.

I'm not going to go down road anyway, but I'll address your point instead. 

You are still assuming that Gatts would be affected by Genjutsu. If he is immune to genjutsu, how can he "wouldn't have the slightest idea that he's under a spell much less try to counter it." 

You still haven't rebuttled the point that Gatts is immune to genjutsu. You simply said that Gatts is more susceptible because he doesn't know about genjutsu. This is not a counter.



> Well now that I've rebutted it, my first statement still stands;


No, you didn't rebuttle anything.



> The only way you can prove me wrong on this point, is by providing me with evidence that someone has actually been able to *avoid *falling into a Genjutsu.


*No limits fallacy*. Just because we haven't seen anyone in Narutoverse avoid falling into a genjutsu, doesn't mean that no one in other universes can avoid falling into a genjutusu.

You are making a rookie debator mistake. Look up the term, it's stickied in the meta-dome.



> Amaterasu is a jutsu, a ninjutsu. Tsukiyomi is a jutsu, a Genjutsu. Every "Sharingan ability" like you prefer to call it is a jutsu, whether you like it or not. Now since the Kyuubi supression went down in Naruto's *mind*, I wonder what kind of jutsu would that be? A taijutsu perhaps?


Another Sharingan's ability is a predictive skill. This doesn't fall under any of the jutsu types. 

Also, just because Sasuke entered the mind of Naruto, doesn't mean it's a genjutsu. Ino's mind transfer jutsu allows her to enter the opponents mind. It is a ninjutsu. 



> Third frame, top row. I mean how much clearer could visual evidence be?!


Sharingan's perception of chakra flow is limited. It does not have the same capabilities of the Byakugan. For all we know, that is how a person's chakra flow not under a genjutsu looks like to a sharingan user.

Obito stated that it was *irregular*, unlike himself or Kakashi's. Irregular meaning, it wasn't the same as *normal* ie, it was under *control* by the genjutsu user.

There is nothing to suggest that there is turbulence in rin's chakra flow, but your own incorrect interpretation. 



> Yet it doesn't surprise me that a GB retard like yourself would choose to ignore it. ^__^


What is a GB retard? Why do you think I am a "GB retard"? What does it have anything to do with this debate?

Personal attacks like calling me a "GB retard", doesn't rebuttle points.



> Kabuto's Genjutsu in the stadium was geared towards making the victim *feel *that he is sleepy.


No, they actually fell asleep.



> Hallucination;
> 
> 1. a perception of something (as a visual image or a sound) with *no external cause* usually arising from a disorder of the nervous system or in response to drugs.



Genjutsu has an external cause. Your definition proves you wrong.



> 2. illusory perception; a common symptom of severe mental disorder


A mirage is also an illusory perception. However, it isn't a hallucination. 


> 3. a mistaken or unfounded opinion or idea


Quite like your arguements.



> All your above "counters" have been shredded to pieces. You might wanna try again.


Again, none of my points have been countered. They still stand.



> I don't like to repeat myself. But I guess your intellect is limited to the point where I'll apparently need to repeat myself over and over. Here you go;
> 
> 
> 
> Third frame, top row.


Nothing changes.



> When an *immortal *evil demon that has claimed thousands of souls, states that Sasuke's chakra is more sinister than his own, we (as in the people who have a shred of common sense) believe him. So now you're trying to tell me that chakra as disastrous and ominous and evil (all three words are from the definition of sinister, you might wanna look it up) as Sasuke's, which is even more sinister than the aforementioned immortal demon, is not enough for Gatts? ^__*


What has "chakra as disastrous and ominous and evil" have anything to do with the mechanics of genjutsu?

Genjutsu is not dependent on how "evil" your chakra is. I don't see how this has any baring on this topic.



> I LOL'd. Hard.


thats fantastic



> That's my line, yo.


great


----------



## Limit_Tester (Jan 14, 2007)

I suppose Mangekyou Sharingan makes the target think its body has been teleported into another dimension. Right? Must be a genjutsu.


----------



## Ippy (Jan 14, 2007)

Endless Mike's Logical fallacy reference guide said:
			
		

> *17. No - limits fallacy.* This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).
> 
> Example: "Itachi said that no one without a Mangekyou Sharingan can defeat him. Therefore he can beat all of DC, Marvel, DBZ, and Tenchi Muyo."
> 
> The person in this argument holds Itachi's statement to be absolute truth, ignoring the possibility that Itachi has no knowledge of certain enemies, or never expected to encounter them. The same can be said of Kishimoto: He never intended for his characters to be pitted in battle against characters from other works of fiction, so therefore statements like this do not hold true to other works of fiction necessarily. Furthermore, there is the possibility that in - universe, Itachi was lying or bluffing, misinformed, or deluded.


It even addresses some of the arguments made in this thread......


----------



## Hagen (Jan 14, 2007)

Neji said:


> ok, dont add jplaya Itachi because then we'll have stupid responses like this


But we have Broken Shikamaru instead, who's pretty much like Jplaya Itachi, warping reality and bending the laws of logic and such. (Although beatin Akatsukis cant be compared with smacking around Galactus, though) 



The_Teacher said:


> Sasuke's Kusagni might also stand a chance, if it can cut through the Dragonslayer (actually, I don't belive it can, but that's just my personal opinion)


Most likely, the kusanagi would split in two. 
The dragonslayer can cut through steel like paper (and without needing a Chidori to power up) and other materials stronger than steel, like the armour of some apostles. Gatts cracked the skin of Grunbeld in dragon form, who said it was hard as a diamond.


----------



## Blue (Jan 14, 2007)

Locard said:


> Most likely, the kusanagi would split in two.


It's stated to be unbreakable.

Anyway, I find it amusing that everyone here brushes aside Narutoverse feats with made-up garbage. Genjutsu doesn't work on Gutts because... he's Gutts, and he's insane like that.
Sakura's punches, which obliterate, well, anything, don't work on Gutts because... he's Gutts.
Tsukiyomi doesn't work on Gutts because he's had a harsh life and being chained to a cross and stabbed for the longest 72 hours ever is somehow not traumatic. 

Okay?

The Dragonslayer doesn't work on Sakura because she's Sakura. I mean, I could even support that - pointing out that attacks that absolutely destroy concrete and metal and even entire buildings barely scratch Naruto characters - Rasengan, Tsunade's punches and Guy's Taijutsu in point. She could even catch it, considering she's a dozen times over as strong as Gutts and her hands are tough enough to impart megapascals of pressure without breaking. Or dodge it all day, she's a dozen times over as fast.

But that would be stupid, ne? Fanboyish, and contrived?

So how about we stop making shit up?


----------



## MdB (Jan 14, 2007)

The kasunagi is really irrelevent imo. Its greatest feat was cutting through a KUNAI, thats hardly a feat when gutts is capable to break corundum.


----------



## Sasori (Jan 14, 2007)

Blue said:


> It's stated to be unbreakable.
> 
> Anyway, I find it amusing that everyone here brushes aside Narutoverse feats with made-up garbage. Genjutsu doesn't work on Gutts because... he's Gutts, and he's insane like that.
> Sakura's punches, which obliterate, well, anything, don't work on Gutts because... he's Gutts.
> ...


Blue we didn't say it just "wouldn't" work on Gutts.

We said it doesn't work because of Beserker armour.

Without it obviously it would work lol


----------



## Neji (Jan 14, 2007)

yeah, as Sasori said, Gutts would pretty much lose pre-eclipse, and possibly post-eclipse, but with berserker armor it'll be completely different


----------



## Hagen (Jan 14, 2007)

When was stated that the kusanagi is unbreakable?

And we are talking about Oro's kusanagi or Sasuke's lite version, which Sasuke said it was _unblockable_, not unbreakable?

and the thought of Sakura givin trouble to Gatts make me...uh, wait a moment i cant even figure out such thing


----------



## Blue (Jan 14, 2007)

Neji said:


> yeah, as Sasori said, Gutts would pretty much lose pre-eclipse, and possibly post-eclipse, but with berserker armor it'll be completely different


I honestly haven't read past vol 24 so I'll accept that. (Kept getting worse after the god and win that was Band of the Hawk arc, in my opinion).


> And we are talking about Oro's kusanagi or Sasuke's lite version, which Sasuke said it was unblockable, not unbreakable?


I suppose we're talking about Oro's, but one might assume they have the same properties, being either of the same forge or actually two aspects of the same exact weapon. 


> and the thought of Sakura givin trouble to Gatts make me...uh, wait a moment i cant even figure out such thing


As noted, I can't speak for armor'd Gutts, but I'm not being a fantard by saying that normal Gutts would be hard pressed to beat a genin. Maybe you like Berserk more than Naruto, that's great. Doesn't change the fact that everyone in Naruto is much tougher than Gutts (he wouldn't live falling off a cliff, Naruto lived - and walked away from - being pile driven off one) and once you get to jounin, they're stronger and so much faster it's silly.


----------



## Orochimaru (Jan 14, 2007)

Sasori said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your whole pointless argument is based on the idea that Berserker Gatts would not be affected by the Genjutsu. I explained that no-one in the Narutoverse has been able to avoid falling into a Genjutsu. You have yet to prove that Gatts is actually immune to Genjutsu, instead of the no limits fallacy bullshit you try to fall back on when you have nothing else to say. Does it state anywhere in the "Berserk" manga that Gatts is immune to Genjutsu? No. 

Now since Gatts has fallen in the Genjutsu (we're assuming that because you have failed to prove, with visual evidence, that he's immune to it) will he be able to break out of it? No. Why? Simply because he has no control over his chakra, which is the single-most important requirement to even attempt to dispel a Genjutsu. 

Once he's mentally bound by the Genjutsu, the chakra infused sword of Kusunagi will go through his neck -with the berserk armor and all that good shit- like a hot knife would go through butter.

It's very cut and dry, really. It amazes me how you fail to see it the way we do.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jan 14, 2007)

Orochimaru said:


> Your whole pointless argument is based on the idea that Berserker Gatts would not be affected by the Genjutsu. I explained that no-one in the Narutoverse has been able to avoid falling into a Genjutsu.



Because Genjutsu has been shown to be successful in the Narutoverse, it doesn't mean it's infallible or absolute upon everyone.



> You have yet to prove that Gatts is actually immune to Genjutsu, instead of the no limits fallacy bullshit you try to fall back on when you have nothing else to say. Does it state anywhere in the "Berserk" manga that Gatts is immune to Genjutsu? No.



Would Genjutsu affect a non-Naruto character who possesses no chakra though?



> Now since Gatts has fallen in the Genjutsu (we're assuming that because you have failed to prove, with visual evidence, that he's immune to it) will he be able to break out of it? No. Why? Simply because he has no control over his chakra, which is the single-most important requirement to even attempt to dispel a Genjutsu.



Yet, isn't it the basis that Genjutsu functions upon?



> Once he's mentally bound by the Genjutsu, the chakra infused sword of Kusunagi will go through his neck -with the berserk armor and all that good shit- like a hot knife would go through butter.
> 
> It's very cut and dry, really. It amazes me how you fail to see it the way we do.



IF he is affected by Genjutsu.


----------



## Ram (Jan 14, 2007)

Damn Oro, you're such a fanboy.


----------



## Rellik (Jan 14, 2007)

People think gutts can't fight jounins?
He fights apostles all the time with abilities exceeding jounins, and why isn't anyone addressing genjutsu has been beaten by extreme focus not just disrupting chakra...

P.S. gutts would destroy post timeskip sakura, she has no shot against him, zero, zilch, none, 0/10. If you think otherwise I doubt you are reading the berserk manga. Gutts fights zoddo on equal terms. Zoddo abilities greatly exceed sakura and are at least on par with Tsunade's. His abilities include healing where he can reattach limbs in an instant, also has the strength to destroy solid rock and it isn't dependent on chakra it's his natural strength (has power tackled gutts through solid rock without berserk armor, and gutts has gotten up), and he has 1000 years of battle experience. #13(Hidan)+ are the ones who would give gutts competition. Sasori would probably be his worst match, poison gas and poison needles are the suck.

And this is all if you don't include gutts healing "item": *Puck*
Puck is a sentient being but he fits in gutts pocket, if you include him it would require Itachi+ IMHO.


----------



## kenpachibankai (Jan 14, 2007)

I've only read a little to Berserk, but yeah I totaly agree that no Jounin can dream of taking Gattsu.


----------



## Spanish Hoffkage (Jan 14, 2007)

mmmm, a Berserk armor Gutts is like unstopable for Narutoverse. Even for summonings. I've read only till he fights that armored dragon, the first time with the armor and I was WTF.

Maybe Orochimaru with Manda has the bigger options but even him, I have doubts.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jan 14, 2007)

Orochimaru said:


> Your whole pointless argument is based on the idea that Berserker Gatts would not be affected by the Genjutsu. I explained that no-one in the Narutoverse has been able to avoid falling into a Genjutsu.



No limits fallacy, just because it hasn't happened so far doesn't mean ti can't happen. Aside from the logical fallacy that the Berserkverse is far different

I mean Goku and Gohan haven't destroyed any planets, does that mean they can't destroy any?



> You have yet to prove that Gatts is actually immune to Genjutsu,



Burden of proof is on you as you made a claim. You can't prove a negative



> instead of the no limits fallacy bullshit you try to fall back on when you have nothing else to say. Does it state anywhere in the "Berserk" manga that Gatts is immune to Genjutsu? No.



It's not bullshit when Sasori is raping your arguements with properly accepted terms and technqiues and not sprouting off crap and logical inconsistencies like crazy



> Now since Gatts has fallen in the Genjutsu (we're assuming that because you have failed to prove, with visual evidence, that he's immune to it) will he be able to break out of it?



You know what? I'll claim that Gutts has the Mangekyou Sharingan, now prove me wrong



> No. Why? Simply because he has no control over his chakra, which is the single-most important requirement to even attempt to dispel a Genjutsu.



Hey, do you think Sasuke can beat someone like Galactus? He hasn't shown to be able to control his chakra, that must mean he'll lose to Sasuke!



> Once he's mentally bound by the Genjutsu, the chakra infused sword of Kusunagi will go through his neck -with the berserk armor and all that good shit- like a hot knife would go through butter.



Prove the sword will go through his knife. I want visual evidence that the chakra infused sword will cut the armour like a hot knife through butter



> It's very cut and dry, really. It amazes me how you fail to see it the way we do.



You are exactly like your name sake, just minus the paedophilia

Maybe


----------



## Orion (Jan 14, 2007)

im starting to understand why he neg repped me for going against his opinion........hes got some serious fanboyism going.


----------



## Blue (Jan 14, 2007)

Rellik said:


> People think gutts can't fight jounins?
> He fights apostles all the time with abilities exceeding jounins, and why isn't anyone addressing genjutsu has been beaten by extreme focus not just disrupting chakra...


I don't think he can reliably beat Chuunin, honestly. The one and only thing he has on any ninja is strength, and people like Guy surpass him even there.

The same is true of the Apostles he beats - they all rely on strength to win, and they usually do win, until Gutts pulls something unlikely out of his ass (or his arm, as it were) and barely wins, crawling away bleeding from every hole he has. 

As I've said, I don't really know what the Berzerker armor does, but normal Gutts gets absolutely eaten alive.

RE: Genjutsu, it doesn't always involve strictly offensive attacks. For instance, just making Gutts imagine there's a path when all there is is a cliff is something easy and simple and unbreakable because it's undetectable.


----------



## Pipboy (Jan 14, 2007)

Blue said:


> I honestly haven't read past vol 24 so I'll accept that. (Kept getting worse after the god and win that was Band of the Hawk arc, in my opinion).[]
> I suppose we're talking about Oro's, but one might assume they have the same properties, being either of the same forge or actually two aspects of
> the same exact weapon.



Assumption makes your ass a tender fruit to be violated by the first person who can but two thoughts together.   Lets not couple that assumption with a no limits fallacy shant we?



> As noted, I can't speak for armor'd Gutts, but I'm not being a fantard by saying that normal Gutts would be hard pressed to beat a genin. Maybe you like Berserk more than Naruto, that's great.



You can believe that but if you actually read up to volume 24 that means you saw the bakiraka, which means your being a fantard.   And thats pre eclipse.   Post eclispe he runs into them again.  And thats volume 18.   And in volume 15 he swats a supersonic foe.   In 21 he is the black whirlwind and strikes so fast he looks like a tornado.



> Doesn't change the fact that everyone in Naruto is much tougher than Gutts (he wouldn't live falling off a cliff, Naruto lived - and walked away from - being pile driven off one) and once you get to jounin, they're stronger and so much faster it's silly.



Thats filler.   On top of that Naruto isn't exceptionally durable, beyond anime norms he regenerates.   Nejii nearly died from wounds that gutts took 4 times over, literally, and kept fighting from.


----------



## Neji (Jan 14, 2007)

> Your whole pointless argument is based on the idea that Berserker Gatts would not be affected by the Genjutsu. I explained that no-one in the Narutoverse has been able to avoid falling into a Genjutsu. You have yet to prove that Gatts is actually immune to Genjutsu, instead of the no limits fallacy bullshit you try to fall back on when you have nothing else to say. Does it state anywhere in the "Berserk" manga that Gatts is immune to Genjutsu? No.
> 
> Now since Gatts has fallen in the Genjutsu (we're assuming that because you have failed to prove, with visual evidence, that he's immune to it) will he be able to break out of it? No. Why? Simply because he has no control over his chakra, which is the single-most important requirement to even attempt to dispel a Genjutsu.
> 
> ...


 
You still don't even get the fact that the fight doesn't consist of "Orochimaru Logic" where someone who has never used Genjutsu is magically able to make a Genjutsu that can harm Gutts. The second GB Neji, YAMATO WOOD, and afro Gai, as well as PIS shika was introduced, this changed the Naruverse's "logic" perspective and makes all canon and everything else you made up not mean anything. We now use the logics of andoliveira4, the Gaible, Kage level Shika and YAMATO WOOD, in which more than one instance, Uchiha = shit, and they play no factor in the fight. The real people who should be focused on in this fight in these selected characters which in their presence, every single other Naruto character is shit, mere chuunin level AT MOST. So your argument with Sasuke will be changed to simply, "he'll shake" and Itachi will run away. You feel as if Sasuke alone can beat him, when we have 20+ other characters who are hundreds of times stronger than Sasuke will ever be, unless your fanboyism turns so big that he'll be classified as "Orochimaru's Sasuke" and he'll be on par with GB Neji and jplaya Itachi


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jan 14, 2007)

> Gatts is very vulnerable to Genjutsu.



How so? As I understood it, Genjutsu is dependant on the victim's character's chakra. And since when did Gatts, a non-Naruto character, possess chakra?



> He has so many fucked up memories that Sasuke can exploit with a Genjutsu, which would leave Gatts in a pool of his own tears and piss. Sasuke will then proceed to slice his head off, nice and clean, with his sword. ^_^



From what you're describing, you're referring to Itachi's Tsukiyomi or his Genjutsu against Naruto.

As I understood it, Sasuke's past was exploited due to Itachi's knowledge. I don't see how Gatts' memories would be pulled out and be exploited if no Naruto character ever knew about his past and history.



> When Gatts goes under the effect of Sasuke's Genjutsu, Sasuke will be able to show him things that will bring him to his knees. Prime example; Sai -an emotionless shinobi- fell on his ass with emotions of fear that he has never experienced before. So even if Gatts has never cried before, Sasuke will make it happen.



Just because something happened to character A, doesn't absolutely mean it'll be the same for character B.



> The more his chakra/chi is messed up, the more the Genjutsu is effective. Remember that the only way to dispel the effects of a Genjutsu, is to have total control of your chakra flow, and stopping it from going to your head. Which means the more berserk Gatts becomes, the more it works to Sasuke's advantage.
> 
> Gatts strength becomes his weakness when facing Sasuke. It's very unfair if you ask me, but let me paraphrase Kakashi; "It's just that you got matched up against the wrong opponent and now you're gonna die!"



Since when does a non-Naruto character possess chakra?



> Sure, but neither was Kakashi nor Sai. Yet both Itachi and Sasuke -respectively- managed to mindfuck them as if they were little EMO bitches.



But would Genjutsu work on non-Naruto characters that possess no chakra systems?



> It's the other way around actually. And if the chakra is already chaotic in the mind and body, then the effect of the Genjutsu is exponentially amplified. I explained that in my previous post, but nevertheless, I will provide visual proof.
> 
> I'm sorry that you wasted so much time typing that garbage though. It's just that your logic was flawed from the get-go. ^__*



Rin is from the Narutoverse. Gatts isn't from Naruto though.



> LOL. You seriously need to read or re-read the manga(s) before you enter such discussions. Have a cookie.



Chapter 301, right? When Sai is faced with that. . . well collage of images with the Sharingan in the middle.

However, didn't Zabuza said that the Sharingan could use a form of hypnosis, not Genjutsu? Kakashi used it against Zabuza, and Itachi used it against his late best friend.



> Dude, you seriously need to read the manga, at least once. Kyuubi suppression? During the fight against Team Yamato? Genjutsu levels don't go much higher than that. Wouldn't you agree?



Wasn't it the power of the Sharingan, and not Genjutsu that allowed Sasuke to manifest himself inside Naruto like that to confront the Kyuubi and suppress it? Sasuke does possess chakra more sinister than Kyuubi's.



> It's glaringly obvious that you have misunderstood what Jiraya explained and/or you're taking what he said out of context to gain leverage in this argument. This would work against someone who doesn't know what the fuck he's saying, someone like "Golden Byakugan" Neji here, or vlaad.
> 
> To paraphrase Jiraya; "To combat the effects of Genjutsu, there are two options. The first option is for the ninja to stop the flow of chakra in their body, and then apply an even stronger power to disrupt the flow of the casters chakra. The second option is to have an outside ninja unaffected by the Genjutsu make body contact, and use their chakra to disrupt the casters flow."
> 
> Notice how it says "and then", meaning that first the victim should have total control over his chakra to stop its flow, and then he should apply a stronger power to disrupt it. Since Gatts can't control his chakra, basically means that he's fucked.



Gatts isn't from Naruto though.



> LOL. It's very amusing watching you get pissed and starting to insult a fictional character with such hatred and passion. However, in such arguments, you need to be very objective and use logic rather than rabid fanboyism. Which you obviously haven't, ergo, you fail.



Understandable, but you assume that Gatts possess chakra as if he was a Naruto character, which is most certainly untrue. Since when does chakra systems are universal among anime?



> Wrong. I've been trying to explain for the last half hour that not only do you need an external pressure, but you need to be able to stop your chakra flow before you can even begin applying the external pressure. Since Gatts doesn't have any chakra control whatsoever, means that the Genjutsu would work on him like no other.



You're assuming that Gatts, a character that is not from Kishimoto's Naruto, possesses a chakra system. Is there any indication in Beserk that chakra systems exists in those characters as well, despite not being the same anime as Naruto?



> All it takes is one look into Sasuke's eyes. There is no-one immune to Genjutsu, not even the Sandaime. Everyone falls in its effect, now whether Gatts will be able to break the effect is what we're going to discuss as we go. But for you to say he won't be affected by Genjutsu in the first place, that's the first flaw in your logic right there. ^__*



Again, you're assuming that Gatts possess a chakra system. He's not from Naruto.



> Tsukiyomi is also a "Sharingan" ability, limited only to the Sharingan bearers. Does that mean that Tsukiyomi is not a genjutsu? That's the second flaw in your logic.



Correction, Tsukiyomi is a Mangekyo Sharingan ability, Itachi's to be specific.



> Chaotic chakra is much easier to control than regulated chakra. Simply because what a Genjutsu does is cause turbulence in the victim's chakra flow, causing hallucinations. In Gatts case, to add more turbulence to his already chaotic chakra would cause his mind to implode. That's why I said the effects of Genjutsu on Gatts would be tremendously amplified. The chaos of his chakra is like adding wind to the fire, that is in this case, the Genjutsu spell.



That is if Gatts possessed chakra at all.



> I'm not ignoring a fact, I'm actually addressing that false opinion. The Kyuubi stated that Sasuke's chakra is even more sinister than his own. Which means Sasuke's chakra is the perfect answer to Gatts "radically different" chakra.
> 
> As I said, I'm sorry, but Gatts got matched up against his perfect opponent - Uchiha Sasuke. And I'm sorry that I shot your points down faster than a deer in the opening of the hunting season, Sasori.



Again, since when did Gatts, a character not from Naruto, possess a chakra system?



> Sorry I'm late, I got lost on the road of life. Not that you guys would know what it is like to have one. ^__*
> 
> LOL. You're really stupid and naive if you can think you can get away with this crap. Gatts is even more susceptible to Genjutsu because he is not from Narutoverse and therefore, wouldn't have the slightest idea that he's under a spell much less try to counter it.



However, since he's not from the Narutoverse, doesn't he lack a chakra system? Since when is chakra universal among animes?



> Well now that I've rebutted it, my first statement still stands;
> 
> Everyone falls in its effect, now whether Gatts will be able to break the effect is what we're going to discuss as we go. But for you to say he won't be affected by Genjutsu in the first place, that's the first flaw in your logic right there.
> 
> The only way you can prove me wrong on this point, is by providing me with evidence that someone has actually been able to avoid falling into a Genjutsu.



Your first statement assumes that a non-Naruto character possesses chakra though.



> Amaterasu is a jutsu, a ninjutsu. Tsukiyomi is a jutsu, a Genjutsu. Every "Sharingan ability" like you prefer to call it is a jutsu, whether you like it or not. Now since the Kyuubi supression went down in Naruto's mind, I wonder what kind of jutsu would that be? A taijutsu perhaps?



Genjutsu, I suppose. Kyuubi mentioned that the power of the Sharingan was what made the meeting and suppression possible.



> Third frame, top row. I mean how much clearer could visual evidence be?! Yet it doesn't surprise me that a GB retard like yourself would choose to ignore it. ^__^
> 
> This first and second definition prove that a Genjutsu is in fact a hallucination. The third definition proves that Kabuto's Genjutsu also falls under hallucination.



Understandable.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jan 14, 2007)

> All your above "counters" have been shredded to pieces. You might wanna try again.
> 
> I don't like to repeat myself. But I guess your intellect is limited to the point where I'll apparently need to repeat myself over and over. Here you go;
> 
> ...



Possible. Though, Naruto isn't the be all, end all of having the most powerful characters in anime.



> I LOL'd. Hard.
> 
> That's my line, yo.
> 
> The third was hailed as the God of Shinobi, with intimate knowledge of every jutsu out there. So if anyone in the Narutoverse was able to avoid falling into the effects of a Genjutsu, it would've been him. But obviously he couldn't. ^__*



However, you have to keep in mind about his advanced state of age.



> So now you'e comparing professor Xavier's mind skills to those of a Berserk Gatts?! This is most probably the worst comeback on the history of the forums. I'm pretty sure a GB representative is going to break that record like real soon though. ^_^



Xavier? What does he have to do with this?



> A killing fear attack?! What the fuck is that supposed to mean?!
> 
> In any case, yes, Sasuke has used Genjutsu twice. Once against Sai, and then against Naruto.



I can vouch for the first -- chapter 301. However, it wasn't directly stated that Sasuke utilized a Genjutsu. Though I don't see what other jutsu would create images like that to Sai.

I wouldn't say Sasuke used Genjutsu on Naruto -- Naruto confronted Kyuubi in his mind, and Sasuke suddenly manifested himself there, courtesy of the Sharingan, according to Kyuubi. The seal and gate was also present prior to the timeskip -- when Naruto summoned Gamabunta.



> I never said that Sharingan gives you immunity. Both Kakashi and Sasuke himself have fallen to the effects of a Genjutsu. Can you please quote where I said the Sharingan gives you immunity against falling into a Genjutsu? Your pathetic attempts at humor are really making you look both pitiful and stupid. ^__<



Tsukiyomi is arguably the most powerful Genjutsu though, and is specific to Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan.



> Some delicious copy pasta from my previous post. Enjoy.
> 
> Those are really ignorant and irrelevant comparisons to the chakra issue. It's very obvious that you haven't read the Naruto manga, and that's why you try to use such comparisons in an attempt to avoid exposing your ignorance.
> 
> ...



That is, if Gatts, a non-Naruto character, does indeed possess chakra.



> See above.
> 
> Additionally, Sasuke is impervious to Gatts' physical attacks, simply because his Sharingan allows him to see Gatts' attacks beforehand and counter accordingly. I'm telling you, Sasuke is Gatts' worst matchup.



Those petty insults will not give you more leverage, nor will they mask the fact that your logic fails, miserably. [/QUOTE]

Hmm.


----------



## Neji (Jan 14, 2007)

lol Oro got pwned, too bad he's enjoying thw wonders of *life *which none of us have


----------



## Orochimaru (Jan 14, 2007)

Blue said:


> RE: Genjutsu, it doesn't always involve strictly offensive attacks. For instance, just making Gutts imagine there's a path when all there is is a cliff is something easy and simple and unbreakable because it's undetectable.



Thank You.


Here's the deal guys. I now believe that you guys have been convinced that if Gatts falls into a Genjutsu, he loses the battle miserably. That's why you're trying so hard to make it as if he's immune to Genjutsu, when we all know he's not. 

My involvement in this absurd thread was just to prove that it's extremely stupid to put a single character and the entire universe of another manga against each other. For the last 5 pages, we have gone back and forth, on whether only one character (Sasuke) from the Naruverse would be able to kill Gatts or not, and you guys have failed to convince me, or any other onlooker with a shred of common-sense, otherwise. I didn't want to involve the Naruverse powerhouses like Orochimaru for example, in this battle, because all he has to do is to Edo-Tensei the Nidaime, who will then spit out an ocean of water and watch Gatts drown.

I wasted a lot of time, but I hope you guys have learned a lesson, which I have no doubt will lead to more enjoyable and unbiased arguments in the OB's future.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jan 14, 2007)

> Thank You.
> 
> Here's the deal guys. I now believe that you guys have been convinced that if Gatts falls into a Genjutsu, he loses the battle miserably. That's why you're trying so hard to make it as if he's immune to Genjutsu, when we all know he's not.



Isn't Genjutsu dependant on the victim's chakra system?

Since when does Gatts of Beserk, a non-Naruto character, possess a chakra system?

Is chakra suddenly an anime universal?



> My involvement in this absurd thread was just to prove that it's extremely stupid to put a single character and the entire universe of another manga against each other. For the last 5 pages, we have gone back and forth, on whether only one character (Sasuke) from the Naruverse would be able to kill Gatts or not, and you guys have failed to convince me, or any other onlooker with a shred of common-sense, otherwise. I didn't want to involve Orochimaru in the battle, because all he has to do is to Edo-Tensei the Nidaime, who will then spit out an ocean of water and watch Gatts drown.
> 
> I wasted a lot of time, but I hope you guys have learned a lesson, which I have no doubt will lead to more enjoyable and unbiased arguments in the OB's future.



However, you entire arguement is based on that Gatts does possessed chakra, despite not being from Naruto.


----------



## Limit_Tester (Jan 14, 2007)

Blue said:


> Doesn't change the fact that everyone in Naruto is much tougher than Gutts (he wouldn't live falling off a cliff, Naruto lived - and walked away from - being pile driven off one) and once you get to jounin, they're stronger and so much faster it's silly.







Nope... no way Guts would survive falling off a cliff....


----------



## Limit_Tester (Jan 14, 2007)

Blue said:


> I don't think he can reliably beat Chuunin, honestly. The one and only thing he has on any ninja is strength, and people like Guy surpass him even there.



So very very wrong. Gai pales in strength to Guts. Tsunade might be stronger. And there is no Chuunin that could ever beat him, even before he got the berserker armor.



> The same is true of the Apostles he beats - they all rely on strength to win, and they usually do win, until Gutts pulls something unlikely out of his ass (or his arm, as it were) and barely wins, crawling away bleeding from every hole he has.



This is really funny, considering Berserk has the least PIS of any manga or anime I've ever seen. And which Apostle has relied on strength again?



> As I've said, I don't really know what the Berzerker armor does, but normal Gutts gets absolutely eaten alive.



A likely story. And the berserker armor insanely increases his strength, speed, durability. Oh, and it makes him rage incarnate.



> RE: Genjutsu, it doesn't always involve strictly offensive attacks. For instance, just making Gutts imagine there's a path when all there is is a cliff is something easy and simple and unbreakable because it's undetectable.



Genjutsu would not work on him. His mind under the influence of the Berserker armor is well, not really existant. The berserker armor brings all his emotions( mainly rage) to the front and they dictate his actions. He knows no friend from foe, and he will not stop attacking until he dies. In essence, he does not really have a mind to influence, since the armor has taken over. Thus, the chakra in his brain is not susceptible to genjutsu.

Dick in a Box.

Dick in a Box.
Dick in a Box.
Dick in a Box.

Basically, just read chapter 229 and you will know why Guts is immune to Genjutsu in the armor. I'm not going to upload the entire chapter.


And also on his ability to break shit:
Dick in a Box.
Dick in a Box.

Note the hardness of Corundum on the scale.


----------



## Khamzul (Jan 14, 2007)

Ok, the whole genjutsu argument aside (how many of the characters in question uses it anyway?) - Here is my list of who I think can and cannot beat Gatts (with armor):


01- Sakura (post* skip i presume?)          
- Gatts 7/10
She is strong enough to hurt Guts, but will have a problem breaking through the armor. Best tactic would be to hurl big boulders against him. Medic abilities will not help if she is chopped in two.
[Edit; post not pre, lol] 

02- Shikamaru (normal)
- Guts 10/10 (fully activated e.g. head covered) 
No attack powerful enough to break through armor if fully activated
- Shikamaru 7/10 (If head not covered)
I’m assuming he can throw Shurikens while Kage Mane/Shadow needles activated. They are not in the same place anyway. A shuriken to the throat/eye of Berserk secures a win.

03- Kiba
- Guts 9/10
Have not seen Kiba post time-skip, and not powerful enough pre-skip to fight evenly with Gatts. He might* be able to evade Gatts for a long time, and eventually kill him though.
_[EDIT; "might" not "will"]_

04- Rock Lee
- Lee 7/10
I do not see Guts keeping up with gates. Although he might kill Lee initially.

05- Naruto (no kyuubi)
- Naruto 10/10 (with Gamabunta) - Just too big with the speed and power to match. 
- Gatts 6/10 (without Gamabunta)
Rasengan might give Naruto a win, and with enough diversions by Kage Bunshin he can win, however, Gatts is an expert in fighting multiple opponents.

06- Neji (normal)
- Gatts 9/10
While I do believe that Genjutsu should be applied to non Naruto characters in the battledome (I'm not entering that battle here) I do not think that closing tenketsu goes by the same rule. While (in this battle, in my opinion) Gatts has a chakra system, he does not use it to fight/live. So closing these will have no effect. 

Kaiten and in the immediate aftermath an attack to inner organs could secure a win for Neji.

07- Sasuke 
- Sasuke 9/10 (Kusunagi cuts Gatts blade) - armor not fully activated
- Sasuke 6/10 (Kusunagi = Gatts blade, neither cuts the other) - armor fully activated
Sasuke's Katons and Chidori Nagasaki would not be very effective here, he is fast though, and I assume his blade can cut the Berserker armor. I don't know how strong his strings are, but I don't think they can restrain Gatts. So, he will be dependent on Sharingan for prediction, and jumping all over the place.

08- Kabuto 
- Gatts 8/10
As said, medic ninjutsu cannot do much when you are chopped in two, and his chakra scalpels are, while effective enough, not enough to fight Gatts evenly. His Duton and speed can probably help him to secure a shot at the heart in one or two cases.

09- Asuma
- Gatts 9/10
I do not think his blades can cut through Gatts blade, since they fared rather bad against Kisame's. Maybe he could fire off a katon and then attack a lethal point with them though, but rather unlikely.

10- Gai (normal)
- Gai 8/10
Do not think Gatts keep up with speed of gates. Can possibly win before those are activated, though.

11- Kimimaro (sick)
- Gatts 7/10
If Kimimaro got bones as hard as steel, then he don't got much defense against Gatts. Last dance would be a win for Kimimaru though.

12- Kakashi
- Kakashi 10/10
Kakashi is to smart to attack such a fighter head on, and any suton could drown Gatts, in addition his Mangekyu could catch Gatts off-guard, his sharingan help him evade, Chidori cut through armor. In short, to versile fighter. 

13- Hidan
- Gatts 7/10
Gatts is always bleeding but is also pretty fast. His scythe would not survive a blow from Gatts sword, and although he probably cannot die without being abandoned by his god - he can get chopped up.

14- Broken Shikamaru (with PIS aura + telepathy + unreasonable reflexes)
- Shikamaru 10/10 regardless of full Berserker. His potion of immortality and scroll of evasion would come in handy as well.

15- Sasori
- Sasori 9/10
He likes to play around, but he still wins against Gatts without much problem. Poison is one hit kill, and the Kazekage puppet could pierce Berserker armor (in my opinion). 

16- Kakuzu
- Kakuzu 8/10 
If he pulls out his ghosts he wins, and even before this he is both strong and fast. His strength and speed coupled with his ghosts would give him a win in most cases

17- Itachi
- Itachi 7/10
Careless and arrogant, but has his sharingan and bunshins which could greatly confuse Gatts. With his speed he should be able to kill Gatts if armor is not fully activated (shurikens/kunai in the face/head).  

18- Orochimaru
- Orochimaru 10/10
Only character which can survive being chopped in two. Also got Manda, his mass of snakes (Gatts is not immune to poison), and Kusunagi.

19- KN4
- KN4 10/10 
I do not see Gatts hurting KN4. 

20- KN9
- KN9 10/10
I do not see Gatts attempting to hurt KN9

21- Uber Gai (with moustache/afro)
- Uber Gai 10/10

22- Yamato with KWGOD


23- Neji (with golden byakugam)
Gatts gonna die.

24- Aoba

25- Kimimaro (healthy)
Can't really speculate much here, not enough info.

End comment: I predict this list being thorn to pieces, but at least I tried. Let's keep this civil.


----------



## Neji (Jan 14, 2007)

> End comment: I predict this list being thorn to pieces, but at least I tried. Let's keep this civil.


 
i wont tear your post to pieces, but Berserker armor Gutts is able to rival Gated uber Gai imo


----------



## Vynjira (Jan 14, 2007)

Orochimaru said:


> Does it state anywhere in the "Berserk" manga that Gatts is immune to Genjutsu? No.



Does it state anywhere in the "Berserk" manga that "Gatts" has Chakra? You can't equip "Gatts" with Chakra just to make him susceptible to Genjutsu. Burden of Proof falls to the one claiming positives. Your claiming he *+can+* be affected by Genjutsu, you now need to prove your positive claim.


----------



## Neji (Jan 15, 2007)

> Originally Posted by *Orochimaru*
> _Does it state anywhere in the "Berserk" manga that Gatts is immune to Genjutsu? No._


 
does it state anywhere in Naruto that any of them can survive an eclipse?


----------



## kenpachibankai (Jan 15, 2007)

Man, lets just leave it at this. Anyone who says that anyone in Naruto can beat Gattsu has never read berserk.

Because everyone who's read it knows otherwise.


----------



## Neji (Jan 15, 2007)

> Man, lets just leave it at this. Anyone who says that anyone in Naruto can beat Gattsu has never read berserk.
> 
> Because everyone who's read it knows otherwise.


 
agreed. However, the argument still stands if they can defeat him as a combined force.


----------



## kenpachibankai (Jan 15, 2007)

> agreed. However, the argument still stands if they can defeat him as a combined force.



That's a tough one...W/out characters like GB Neji or Jplaya Itachi, I find it hard to come up with a team that can pull through against him. Maybe a team w/some Bijuus and kages?


----------



## Hagen (Jan 15, 2007)

Still the genjutsu argument? Of all the possible trump cards Narutoverse has against Gatts, genjutsu is probably the less useful, at least against berserker armour Gatts. Read again the scans in the last page.


Khamzul said:


> Ok, the whole genjutsu argument aside (how many of the characters in question uses it anyway?) - Here is my list of who I think can and cannot beat Gatts (with armor):
> 
> 01- Sakura (post* skip i presume?) blah blah...
> 
> ...


Your list is accurate, but only against pre-Berserker armour Gatts. 
You must be one of the many readers such as Blue, that stopped reading Berserk after the introduction of magic, thus you dont know what current Gatts is capable of. 
You're also forgetting that Gatts was able to keep up in speed with superhuman speedsters such as Queen Elf and Zodd and take damage from them, even _before_ he obtained the berserker armour. 

He also was killing behemoths (that makes Naruto characters seems like pansies in strenght) before gaining the armour, which increases all his physical atributes to the levels of a demon, in Schierke's words. 

You're also sayin that the Dragonslayer cant damage the kyuubi, and you're forgetting that it's a sword specialized in killing demons, and it's destined to kill even God someday.


----------



## kenpachibankai (Jan 15, 2007)

^ Only problem is I myself haven't read that far, I haven't read very far at all in fact, yet I still think he wins.

That is if their isn't those crazy overpowered OBD Cosmic-esque characters Like KGOD, GB Neji, Sasuke Prime, or Jplaya Itachi......


----------



## Codde (Jan 15, 2007)

Khamzul said:


> 04- Rock Lee
> - Lee 7/10
> I do not see Guts keeping up with gates. Although he might kill Lee initially.


Gutts has dealt with people far above him in terms of speed and strength. Against Roshinu he was fighting someone who was creating sonic booms (Mach 1.3+), while he didn't defeat her while she was going that fight, he was at least quick enough to prevent himself from simply being run through. His Berserker armor would greatly amplify his speed (though at the same time you could argue that it would dull his skills) and withstand blows, Lee won't be in that great a condition after he uses the gates, and he'd have to dish out a lot more damage than people like Zodd or Grundbeld. 



> 19- KN4
> - KN4 10/10
> I do not see Gatts hurting KN4.


Well I know some people claim for some reason that Naruto w/ 4 tails's "armor" is as strong as diamond, but I found that doubtful. But Gutts with a simple lunge was able to make a crack in Grunbeld's outer layer which was made of Corundum, the second hardest material in the world (diamond being only harder). So Naruto would have to have an armor as strong as diamond to survive (or at least keep a portion of his body intact) to even withstand a simple lunge, but there isn't much indicating that in that form he's that durable.


----------



## Hagen (Jan 15, 2007)

kenpachibankai said:


> ^ Only problem is I myself haven't read that far, I haven't read very far at all in fact, yet I still think he wins.
> 
> That is if their isn't those crazy overpowered OBD Cosmic-esque characters Like KGOD, GB Neji, Sasuke Prime, or Jplaya Itachi......


Jplaya Itachi isn't included, and who's this Sasuke Prime anyway? IICR Sasuke is only good at shaking. GB Neji wont stop Gatts, since he's only slightly stronger than Kisame. Aoba is dangerous only if some buildings are around, no buildings means no door-no-jutsu. 

KWGOD would be very troublesome, since they're godly and immortal, but maybe Gatts can pull another Slan and at least make them vanish from our world for a while.
I think the worst matchups for Gutts are KWGOD, Broken Shikamaru and Healthy Kimimaro (recent investigations reveals that he was fighting at only _0.0000001%_ of his real power when he was fatally ill and his durabilty was decreased to steel-level when he would be normally somewhere _between_ Adamantium and the Uru metal from Thor's hammer)


----------



## Crowe (Jan 15, 2007)

Is this with or without Yondaime ?


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jan 15, 2007)

Khamzul said:


> Ok, the whole genjutsu argument aside (how many of the characters in question uses it anyway?) - Here is my list of who I think can and cannot beat Gatts (with armor):
> 
> 
> 01- Sakura (post* skip i presume?)
> ...



Well, I think this list would have been alot better if it was for Post-Eclipse Guts not using Berserker Armor. Because seriously, with the armor there are few that could do anything but get killed. 

 in the case of berserker armor Gutts, I'd say it be more like this: 
1. Gaara in the desert. ( He'd be able to create distance and could attack with enough firepower to exhaust the berserker armor.)

2. Deidara already airbourn. (Again, he'd have distance and with his clay bombs and number 18 should be able to 'seal the deal"

3. Orochimaru with all his stuff. ( Oro is the beast of naruto verse. I don't believe I need to explain.

4. Yondaime/Jiraiya with preptime and summoning. (With Gama I'm should be able to damage the Berserker armor enough. In addition, with prep Yondaime could teleport all over the place and avoid attacks. Jiraiya on the otherhand, though lacking so defintive counter measure of avoidance, does tend to summon gamabunta right away.) Thus why Naruto isn't included because it's not really a part of his chaarcter to summon Gamabunta right away. 

^Edit: to clarify, there the ones with the potential to beat Berserker Armor Guts, but it's not to say they would, just that they could be able to.

Other then them though, Berserker armor Gutts would beat everyone else, easily. KN4 would be a joke and is perfect food for Dragon Slayer. Remember the properties! 

As for some of the others, 
Kakashi and Sasuke Chidori I highly doubt could penetrate the armor, based on what was infered from the manga of the armor. in truth though, it's anyone's guess, due to the inferance made about chidori as well.  However, even if we were to say the two could penetrate the armor, Berserker Armor Gutts is damn fast, wild, and strong. In short, Kakashi and Sasuke would get overwhealmed by the culmination of Berserker armor Gutts speed, vicious instinct, and destructive power. His speed alone is in fact to much. In addition, even if we were to assume a chidori could penetrate and did, that would not stop berserker armor gutts. I mean really, is it necessary that I post scans of why they'd get overwhleamed into hell by Berserker Armor Gutts? 

Post-Eclipse Guts Vs Naruto characters on the otherhand has alot more debatable potential. Off which I think you list is far more applicable. Obviously, I'd say the four I prevously mentioned would defintively beat armorless Post-Eclipse Guts. In addition, I'd say these others would as well: Kisame,Tsunade, Kakashi, Itachi, Sasuke and Shikamaru with those funky extra's. (strangely, Kisame was left of the list.) Gai should take him too, because in addition to the power the Gates gives him, it's also a fire based attack he can use. 
And also Kakuzu... although

Kakuzu and his heart deal would just get abused into eternity by Gutts. On the otherhand, his elemental attacks are pretty good... but aside from the lighting one, I doubt they would be too effective. Guts toke a direct hit from freaking Ganishaka! Seriously, lest not even joke at coparing Ganishaka to kakuzu's attack. aside from the lighting though, I doubt Kakuzu wind attack would be to useful. Gutts could dodge it. The fire one though, well that is pretty dangerous. Kakuzu earth defense jutsu would be useless though. His strength doesn't seem high enough to poss much of a problem to gutts. In addition, he can't attack continously; that is, in the same sense a gated gai could. He's pretty fas though, I think. So I think Kakuzu would take majority over Guts. 

As for people who I think would make for a good fight against him I'd say Naruto and Sasori. 

In sasori's case he has a glaring weakness, off which Gutts may just hit right off the bat when he's in Hiroko. On the otherhand, if Sasori isn't hit and if he somehow gets the time to summon 100 puppets, he may be able to get in that scratch on guts. In addition, Iron judgement would more then likely get in a scratch. And, guts is not immune to poison. Che, but realistically speaking, maybe some fanboism to, I'd say Guts would kill Sasori before he could really fight back alot. 

Other then them everyone else is destroyed. 

Kimmi has no defense when Gutts comes a swining, and we both know how he's gonna try to defend! Asuma/ Hidan are destroyed to the point it's sad. Neji's most useful abilities will prove useless against Guts.

Kiba post /unseen post aren't worth commenting on, because it's just are gueestimation strength-wise, based on how much we like or dislike the character. 

Kiba pretimeskip however would get owned by guts as would Lee. Lee takes to long to activate gates pretimeskip and without them I don't see Gutts having to much trouble with him. 

Yamato I am ignoring because he's to lame to even care about (can't stand that character)  

and seriously, 
Post-timeskip Sakura would get destroyed by Guts. Kabuto would as well - unless he bust out some genjutsu.
Because Guts has very high reaction speed, coupled with extremly high attackitive speed, endruance and all around strength. In addition, Guts is an extremly skilled fighter and has other means with which to attack other then a sword. Sakura is not tsunade, she isn't an utter beast in every strength aspect, nor is she as well verse in medical jutsu junk. she's dead. 

---
As for the genjutsu argument, lol. Berserker armor Gutts cannot be effective by Genjutsu. Just go read what Schriek says when she is within the chaotic consiousness of gutts/the armor.


----------



## kenpachibankai (Jan 15, 2007)

> Jplaya Itachi isn't included,



Thank God!



> and who's this Sasuke Prime anyway?



Well I don't have much info on him, but it's thought thet he has the power to destroy Jplaya Itachi He only lacks the hate.



> IICR Sasuke is only good at shaking.



I don't know who IICR Sasuke is...



> GB Neji wont stop Gatts, since he's only slightly stronger than Kisame.



Wait I thought he was Bijuu Level and everyone else was Chunin level...



> Aoba is dangerous only if some buildings are around, no buildings means no door-no-jutsu.



Who's Aoba?



> I think the worst matchups for Gutts are KWGOD, Broken Shikamaru and Healthy Kimimaro



I agree, Their all...*err*...Broken...



> (recent investigations reveals that he was fighting at only 0.0000001% of his real power when he was fatally ill and his durabilty was decreased to steel-level when he would be normally somewhere between Adamantium and the Uru metal from Thor's hammer)



Damn! With strength like that he'd tear the Berserk armour as though it were tissue paper!


----------



## Goodfellow (Jan 15, 2007)

Hah, I belive that Kimmimaro argument when I actually see it^^.

(Seriously though, healthy kimmimaro was just hype. Don't belive the hype kids )


----------



## Khamzul (Jan 15, 2007)

Locard said:


> Your list is accurate, but only against pre-Berserker armour Gatts.
> You must be one of the many readers such as Blue, that stopped reading Berserk after the introduction of magic, thus you dont know what current Gatts is capable of.


Actually I'm up to date (I would not be posting if not). Seems, you think im underestimating him though, and I can understand that.


> You're also forgetting that Gatts was able to keep up in speed with superhuman speedsters such as Queen Elf and Zodd and take damage from them, even _before_ he obtained the berserker armour.


While that is true, I do not think he showed speed compareable to gated Lee. 



> He also was killing behemoths (that makes Naruto characters seems like pansies in strenght) before gaining the armour, which increases all his physical atributes to the levels of a demon, in Schierke's words.


 True again, but against characters like Gai and (punching) Sakura he is still at an disadvantage in terms of strenght.



> You're also sayin that the Dragonslayer cant damage the kyuubi, and you're forgetting that it's a sword specialized in killing demons, and it's destined to kill even God someday.


I did not say Dragonslayer could not damage Kyuubi, I just see Gatts doing it. Kyuubi as described in Naruto was crushing mountains and creating tsunamis with it's tail, and we can both agree that Gatts does not fight at that level yet.

KN4 got it's arms, which I don't see Gatts dodging, and the Chakra bullet is a safe kill (if it hits). And I'm still not sure that Dragonslayer could pierce KN4 or Kyuubi. Where Kusunagi failed.

--



kenpachibankai said:


> Man, lets just leave it at this. Anyone who says that anyone in Naruto can beat Gattsu has never read berserk.
> 
> Because everyone who's read it knows otherwise.


And how will Gatts win against (e.g.) Gaara or Kisame?

I have read both, and I do not see your reasoning here.

--



shika shika boo said:


> Well, I think this list would have been alot better if it was for Post-Eclipse Guts not using Berserker Armor. Because seriously, with the armor there are few that could do anything but get killed.



I disagree, but understand you reasoning.


> KN4 would be a joke and is perfect food for Dragon Slayer. Remember the properties!


 Well, then he should be food for Kusunagi aswell (not saying they are equal, but I cannot prove any difference either). In addition he has his arms which has poisonus/burning chakra. I think KN4 would win without much problem.



> As for some of the others,
> Kakashi and Sasuke Chidori I highly doubt could penetrate the armor, based on what was infered from the manga of the armor. in truth though, it's anyone's guess, due to the inferance made about chidori as well.  However, even if we were to say the two could penetrate the armor, Berserker Armor Gutts is damn fast, wild, and strong. In short, Kakashi and Sasuke would get overwhealmed by the culmination of Berserker armor Gutts speed, vicious instinct, and destructive power. His speed alone is in fact to much. In addition, even if we were to assume a chidori could penetrate and did, that would not stop berserker armor gutts. I mean really, is it necessary that I post scans of why they'd get overwhleamed into hell by Berserker Armor Gutts?


 In my opinion Kakashi is faster then Gatts, and he is more versile. His intelligence will tell him to don't attack head-on. Sharingan makes for good dodging, and with Gatts armor he will sink like a stone to Kakashi's Suitons. And if that wasen't enough he still got his wooden log to get out of a tight situation (kiwirami). And I still have not mentioned Mangekyu which if attacking from stealth is deadly, aswell as a Chidori a'la Kakazu kill, which I think would penetrate the armor.  



> Post-Eclipse Guts Vs Naruto characters on the otherhand has alot more debatable potential. Off which I think you list is far more applicable. Obviously, I'd say the four I prevously mentioned would defintively beat armorless Post-Eclipse Guts. In addition, I'd say these others would as well: Kisame,Tsunade, Kakashi, Itachi, Sasuke and Shikamaru with those funky extra's. (strangely, Kisame was left of the list.) Gai should take him too, because in addition to the power the Gates gives him, it's also a fire based attack he can use.
> And also Kakuzu... although


 Well, I do agree that pre berserk armor makes for better debates. 



> [...] So I think Kakuzu would take majority over Guts.


 I can agree with that, although I think his Duton might be practical against any flat blade blows, or if he is able to punch Gutts.



> As for people who I think would make for a good fight against him I'd say Naruto and Sasori.
> 
> In sasori's case he has a glaring weakness, off which Gutts may just hit right off the bat when he's in Hiroko. On the otherhand, if Sasori isn't hit and if he somehow gets the time to summon 100 puppets, he may be able to get in that scratch on guts. In addition, Iron judgement would more then likely get in a scratch. And, guts is not immune to poison. Che, but realistically speaking, maybe some fanboism to, I'd say Guts would kill Sasori before he could really fight back alot.


Well, the Kazekage puppet controls magnetisem, so that would secure a easy win. But, I agree that he might kill Sasori before he goes out of Hirako. However, I do not think this is so likely. 



> Kimmi has no defense when Gutts comes a swining, and we both know how he's gonna try to defend! Asuma/ Hidan are destroyed to the point it's sad. Neji's most useful abilities will prove useless against Guts.


Well, Kimimaru would only win if he gets to his last dance - however here I think he wins against Guts. Asuma got little to no chance, possibly 1/10 with a katon and then a fast attack to the head of Guts. Hidans chances are better, since Guts is bleeding constantly (well almost) - if he gets blood and time to draw his circle he wins. 



> Kiba post /unseen post aren't worth commenting on, because it's just are gueestimation strength-wise, based on how much we like or dislike the character.


 I strongly agree with this.



> Kiba pretimeskip however would get owned by guts as would Lee. Lee takes to long to activate gates pretimeskip and without them I don't see Gutts having to much trouble with him.


 Well, fully possesed Guts (if he starts that way) would win against Lee, however, Lee might be able to activate his gates before Guts kills him. There is also the possibility (depending on the enviroment) for him to jump to high position that Guts can't reach and activate from there (if that is possible). Kiba's only chance is to evade (from a long distance until Guts bleeds to death (this is with fully activated armor).



> Yamato I am ignoring because he's to lame to even care about (can't stand that character)
> 
> 
> > Im assuming KWGoD has not killed you for insulting their pet, but as the universe seems to be okay, I guess you are alive. However, I do not think such comments are worth the risk. The mighty ones might smite you.
> ...


----------



## Neji (Jan 15, 2007)

> Jplaya Itachi isn't included, and who's this Sasuke Prime anyway? IICR Sasuke is only good at shaking. GB Neji wont stop Gatts, since he's only slightly stronger than Kisame. Aoba is dangerous only if some buildings are around, no buildings means no door-no-jutsu.


 
actually the only ones who are stronger than GB Neji are uber Gai and Kisame, 100% prooved.




> Wait I thought he was Bijuu Level and everyone else was Chunin level...


 
GB Neji is bijuu levelx4, however the only ones stronger are Gai and Kisame as i said.



			
				pek said:
			
		

> Is this with or without Yondaime ?


 

the list doesnt include him, so i guess without, however i do understand how Hirashin will be a problem


----------



## MdB (Jan 15, 2007)

Orochimaru said:


> Thank You.
> 
> Here's the deal guys. I now believe that you guys have been convinced that if Gatts falls into a Genjutsu, he loses the battle miserably. That's why you're trying so hard to make it as if he's immune to Genjutsu, when we all know he's not.




You're the one that made that statement, so prove it with actual evidence... And where not making it hard for you, its the mystic nature of gutts rage and the berserker armor that protects him from genjutsu. Read the damn manga and you know why.



Orochimaru said:


> My involvement in this absurd thread was just to prove that it's extremely stupid to put a single character and the entire universe of another manga against each other. For the last 5 pages, we have gone back and forth, on whether only one character (Sasuke) from the Naruverse would be able to kill Gatts or not, and you guys have failed to convince me, or any other onlooker with a shred of common-sense, otherwise. I didn't want to involve the Naruverse powerhouses like Orochimaru for example, in this battle, because all he has to do is to* Edo-Tensei the Nidaime*, *who will then spit out an ocean of water* and watch Gatts drown.




Lady's and gentleman we got another jplaya here. Nidaime can't bark an ocean, he hasn't shown such a feat. And oro summoning nidaime wont happen cause he needs prep-time for that.



Orochimaru said:


> I wasted a lot of time, but I hope you guys have learned a lesson, which I have no doubt will lead to more enjoyable and unbiased arguments in the OB's future.



LMFAO. Nice way to announce that you concede....


----------



## Goodfellow (Jan 15, 2007)

Kn9 and any character able to siege Guts from decent lenght without risking their own life stands a good chance, I.E Gaara and Deidara. Also, anyone who can create a high enough body of water might as well (Kisame is the only one who has pulled such a feat without a body of water close by, Niidaime''s was good, but not superb, unless I'm mistaken, the water only filled the barriers in the anime, right? If not, well, duh, two guys who can pull that feat.)

What goes for KN4 though, it creates a interesting matchup. Besides that orb, there is few things that has been destructible enough to get to Guts. Those hands sure are, well, handy, but I don't think they have shown sufficent speed to ge to Guts (refering to Guts second fight with that Indian guy pre eclipse). It's though questionable if the dragonslayer gets through the chakra barrier. The thing is, it's, the chakra is probably pushing back any kinetic force, it's not just a static shield. Thus one would need quite the power to get through it.

What goes for Tsunandes and Sakura's puches though, Guts stands a very good chance. Although blunt force is one of the few stuffs that have so far hurt Guts in berserk mode (see Guts duel with Serpicio for an example of why the armor is so handy to have), Guts stand a good chance to surviving them, considering the fact that it, for instance, proteceted and repaired any damage done when he got bitten by one of those sea monsters, whatever they were called.

Also, what goes for big ass summons like Gamabunta, they better keep mobile, the berserking Guts has shown to be more than capable to fight giant monsters. Especially in a dirty way^^ (attacking from the inside is unfair!)

Alright, thats another of my 9000 cents.


----------



## Yak (Jan 15, 2007)

The_Teacher said:


> Guts losses the fights, but he finds true friendship with Kenpachi^^



Another pen friend for Ken-chan!

The list continues...

1. Kisame
2. Miyamoto Musashi
3. "Dr. Jackal" Kuroudo Akabane
4. Guts


----------



## Ram (Jan 15, 2007)

Protip on merging: Naruto is not Bleach.


----------



## Neji (Jan 15, 2007)

i agree with ram it was probably TBH


----------



## Hagen (Jan 15, 2007)

The hell? how did Bleach got involved in my thread?

Gatts kill them all, they cant even kill a kitten. 
Byakuya, if you cant kill a person even by using one million blades on him, you need to hang yourself.


----------



## Guts (Jan 15, 2007)

I win this hands down.


----------



## kenpachibankai (Jan 15, 2007)

Man!! Just how many anime characters come to these forums!!!!?????!!!


----------



## Sengoku (Jan 16, 2007)

just finished watching all 25 episodes of berserk.

by enemies alone, especially the last one, gatsu would definitely win.

if naruto people have to fight the enemies gatts did, they would be in so much trouble :amazed


----------



## Guts (Jan 16, 2007)

kenpachibankai said:


> Man!! Just how many anime characters come to these forums!!!!?????!!!



Alot, nice to meet you im Guts.




SengokuGensui said:


> just finished watching all 25 episodes of berserk.
> 
> by enemies alone, especially the last one, gatsu would definitely win.
> 
> if naruto people have to fight the enemies gatts did, they would be in so much trouble :amazed


 LolOlololOlol. Should see after the anime.


----------



## Goodfellow (Jan 16, 2007)

kenpachibankai said:


> Man!! Just how many anime characters come to these forums!!!!?????!!!



God, I thought just that sechoumaru (or whatever) guy was annoying (if you see this, well sorry Sechy, but I still think you are annoying)


----------



## MdB (Jan 16, 2007)

SengokuGensui said:


> just finished watching all 25 episodes of berserk.
> 
> by enemies alone, especially the last one, gatsu would definitely win.
> 
> if naruto people have to fight the enemies gatts did, they would be in so much trouble :amazed



The narutoverse can't handle ganishka, the god hand and the idea of evil are overkill.


----------



## Neji (Jan 16, 2007)

> The hell? how did Bleach got involved in my thread?
> 
> Gatts kill them all, they cant even kill a kitten.
> Byakuya, if you cant kill a person even by using one million blades on him, you need to hang yourself.


 
win 



> just finished watching all 25 episodes of berserk.
> 
> by enemies alone, especially the last one, gatsu would definitely win.
> 
> if naruto people have to fight the enemies gatts did, they would be in so much trouble :amazed


 
anime version? that's like 15-20% of this power now


----------



## Orion (Jan 16, 2007)

Neji said:


> win
> 
> 
> 
> anime version? that's like 15-20% of this power now



15-20%?lmao more like 10 and thats being generous.


----------



## Neji (Jan 16, 2007)

yeah, your right, he went from defeating an army of weak humans on a weekly basis to defeating a horde of demons on a nightly basis, as well as apostles


----------



## MdB (Jan 17, 2007)

He could keep up with zodd in a sword fight without the berserker armor. 100 is such a small number now.


----------



## Guts (Jan 17, 2007)

MdB said:


> He could keep up with zodd in a sword fight without the berserker armor. 100 is such a small number now.


I wouldnt exactly call it keeping up, unless i missed something, i havent read all the manga. Does he have another fight with him?


----------



## Limit_Tester (Jan 17, 2007)

You haven't read the manga? ><

So far he has only fought Zodd twice..... Once before the eclipse and once after.


----------



## MdB (Jan 17, 2007)

Guts said:


> I wouldnt exactly call it keeping up, unless i missed something, i havent read all the manga. Does he have another fight with him?



Read the fight again, gutts was definitely keeping up with him. (Human form ofcourse.)


----------



## Hagen (Jan 17, 2007)

MdB said:


> The narutoverse can't handle ganishka, the god hand and the idea of evil are overkill.


The Naruto characters would crap their pants if they ever have to face Gatt's enemies



MdB said:


> Read the fight again, gutts was definitely keeping up with him. (Human form ofcourse.)


Berserker armour Gatts could probably take down Zodd by now.

BTW. Zodd would _flatten_ any Naruto character.


----------



## Orion (Jan 17, 2007)

berserker armor gatts could take human zodd down but i still dont think he is strong enough to take down zodd's demon form.


----------



## Limit_Tester (Jan 17, 2007)

Normal Guts did take down zodd's human form.


----------



## Hagen (Jan 18, 2007)

vlaaad12345 said:


> berserker armor gatts could take human zodd down but i still dont think he is strong enough to take down zodd's demon form.


Berserker Gatts was doing very well against Grunbeld, and to tell the truth, i see Grunbeld as a lot tougher than Zodd.

(It seems like the Skull knight can beat the crap outta Zodd anytime)

lol, and Grunbeld would also flatten any Naruto character


----------



## Goodfellow (Jan 19, 2007)

Yeah, is there any Guts information thread around here? Sometimes members create does. We should have one of Guts, where it shows all the impressive stuff he has done, with pix^^

The second Guts versus Zodd fight was epic (I was breaking apart out of the coolness factor when Guts gutted Zodd with one of the swords lying around^^)


----------

