# Marco vs. Fujitora



## Shanks (Mar 25, 2016)

Now that we have a little more info about how strong Marco and Fujitora are, let's see how they fair against each other again.

Let's review some recent hype/dehype 

Marco - had a ferocious battle and then an overwhelming defeat against a Yonkou
Fujitora - said by Oda via Robin that a Yonkou is leagues above him

That said, I wonder how these two would go against each other now? 

Mindset: IC
Distances apart: 100m
Knowledge: current
Location: MF


----------



## Datassassin (Mar 26, 2016)

Fujitora still whoops his ass 10/10 times with at least the upper end of mid difficulty. Marco's regeneration isn't helping him not get thrown by gravity and knocked around by meteors. If the setting has water, which this one does, there's a valid shot for Marco getting drowned if he tries to make it an aerial fight too close to the ocean. The only place Fujitora is more dangerous (to DF users) than near the ocean is flatout at sea.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 26, 2016)

Josh said:


> Now that we have a little more info about how strong Marco and Fujitora are, let's see how they fair against each other again.
> 
> Let's review some recent hype/dehype
> 
> ...



When did this happen? Panel?


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

*Ne*



Dunno said:


> When did this happen? Panel?


Within the last 10 chapters. On my phone, so can't be bothered looking.


----------



## giantbiceps (Mar 26, 2016)

Marco whoops his ass.


----------



## Amol (Mar 26, 2016)

I actually think that Issho is better match up against Marco than say Kizaru .
I have Marco vs Kizaru as a toss up but I think Issho can beat Marco all the times with very High diff fight.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

Amol said:


> I actually think that Issho is better match up against Marco than say Kizaru .
> I have Marco vs Kizaru as a toss up but I think Issho can beat Marco all the times with very High diff fight.



Then again Robin did say Big Mom is leagues above all enemies they fought previously, which include Kizaru also


----------



## barreltheif (Mar 26, 2016)

Are you thinking of:
Robin: Remember this is a Yonkou we’re dealing with, Luffy!! It isn’t like anything we’ve faced before!
?

Because that's really not the same at all as saying that Fujitora is "leagues" below a yonkou.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> Are you thinking of:
> Robin: Remember this is a Yonkou we’re dealing with, Luffy!! It isn’t like anything we’ve faced before!
> ?
> 
> Because that's really not the same at all as saying that Fujitora is "leagues" below a yonkou.



She did say 'leagues above' so it's about right


----------



## Moldrew (Mar 26, 2016)

Mid-high diff win for Fujitora. Marco could possibly push him to the lower end of high-diff.

  I thought that Marco might've gotten on his level during the time skip, prior to the recent chapter, but Marco seems to have been inactive after losing to Blackbeard. He's most likely still below an admiral by a decent margin.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

Found the page btw:


----------



## trance (Mar 26, 2016)

cnet says otherwise.



> Robin: Remember this is a Yonkou we’re dealing with, Luffy!! It isn’t like anything we’ve faced before!


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

I don't see a difference. All translations are pointing to Big Mom is significantly stronger than all previous opponents.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

Btw, just having a abit of fun during bored times guys. People who jack off to Admirals at night are looking down on Marco too much after the last chapter with that off panel battle these days. 

Happy Easter, I'm heading off to celebrate


----------



## monkey d ace (Mar 26, 2016)

Fujitora>Marco.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 26, 2016)

Marco was never going to beat an Admiral without recent revelation or not anyway.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

I'm pretty sure Marco will beat someone of equivalent to an admiral before EoS.


----------



## Extravlad (Mar 26, 2016)

Robin was obviously talking about the opponents they've defeated 

Why the fuck would she include Admirals in there when all the SHs have done vs Admirals is run away or get their ass kicked?

As for the thread : Fujitora 10 times out of 10.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

Because she obviously knows how terrifying Kuzan is back at water 7 arc, experienced the terrifying defeat involving Zoro almost getting killed by Kizaru and saw what Fujitora was capable of? If let's say Big Mom = Kuzan or Kizaru, she would say that they are in the same leagues while making Fujitora looks 10xtimes more impressive against Zoro.


----------



## Bohemian Knight (Mar 26, 2016)

Fuji very high diff


----------



## trance (Mar 26, 2016)

Remember, if it's an Admiral vs. Marco, always go with the Admiral.


----------



## Nekochako (Mar 26, 2016)

I go with Fujitora with somewhere around high-extreme diff. Marco is strong but don´t think he is quite admiral level.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 26, 2016)

Fujitora high diff


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 26, 2016)

Josh said:


> I'm pretty sure Marco will beat someone of equivalent to an admiral before EoS.



So a Yonko or Dragon or Mihawk? Good fucking luck. 

The best he has to offer is beating Kaido's first mate in the upcoming war while Supernovas gangbang Kaido. Even that depends on whether BB stripped his Zoan fruit from him or not. He did suffer an overwhelming/utter defeat.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 26, 2016)

Marco's DC < G4 Luffy's DC btw


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

Sherlōck said:


> So a Yonko or Dragon or Mihawk? Good fucking luck.



Um, no. Yonkou/Dragon and Admirals are not on the same level.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

Josh said:


> Fujitora - said by Oda via Robin that a Yonkou is leagues above him



That can be interpreted in a multitude of ways. Yonko also have giant armies with them. Even the "leagues" thing was a mistranslation. Stop spreading lies.

Also, Fujitora higher end of mid diff.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 26, 2016)

Marco is weaker than all Admirals.


Josh said:


> Um, no. Yonkou/Dragon and Admirals are not on the same level.


Akainu > Dragon.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 26, 2016)

Josh said:


> Um, no. Yonkou/Dragon and Admirals are not on the same level.



It must be nice to live in a constant dream.


----------



## Bernkastel (Mar 26, 2016)

Issho very high diff.

Nothing changed with the latest chapter.

Marco still remains the strongest first mate (imo) and would give to all admirals except Akainu very high diff.


----------



## savior2005 (Mar 26, 2016)

marco gets obliterated.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

Bernkastel said:


> Marco still remains the strongest first mate (imo) and would give to all admirals except Akainu very high diff.



Marco is *the only* first mate we've seen properly fight.


----------



## Beast (Mar 26, 2016)

I don't think Marco is the strongest FM but a free for all between the yonko FM, i can see Marco being the survivor.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

Again, you say that without knowing anything about Shanks's, Big Mom's or BB's FM.


----------



## Furinji Saiga (Mar 26, 2016)

Bernkastel said:


> Issho very high diff.
> 
> Nothing changed with the latest chapter.
> 
> *Marco still remains the strongest first mate (imo*) and would give to all admirals except Akainu very high diff.



Bitch plz 


Beckman will spank that turkey with butt end of his rifle. 

@OP 

Fuji defeats Marco medium-high difficulty


----------



## Beast (Mar 26, 2016)

It's just a feeling... of course i'm not going around stating that as a fact though.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

It's very possible that Beckman uses haki or seastone bullets. Can Marco even heal from that?


----------



## Beast (Mar 26, 2016)

why would he not be able to?

666


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Mar 26, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> It's very possible that Beckman uses haki or seastone bullets. Can Marco even heal from that?



If the seastone bullet didn't pass through no, otherwise he'd be able to heal


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

Because bullets stay in your body and continue to cause internal bleeding? If they're made of seastone, they would not only cause damage but overall weaken Marco, if they're made of haki they should still keep causing him internal bleeding.

If your whole idea of Marco winning a ffa is because of his regeneration, then just Shanks FM has a way of bypassing that. It could be possible that Big Mom's and BB's FM do as well.


----------



## Coruscation (Mar 26, 2016)

Fuji with high to very high difficulty or around that, probably. The leagues below a Yonkou statement never happened, but, nonetheless, the Yonkou have more weight than the Admirals. But on the flip side again, Blackbeard is clearly a MUCH better match up against Marco than Issho. That means BB doesn't necessarily have to have been significantly stronger than Issho to beat Marco like he did and, conversely, unless Issho is significantly stronger than Teach he isn't likely to beat Marco with anything less than a high difficulty fight. How far it goes is hard to say. Fuji seems more vulnerable than his near impervious colleagues right now, there's no doubt about that, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt he's no less a monster because his portrayal fully supports that, even though his calm and kind personality belies it.


----------



## Beast (Mar 26, 2016)

and how does the bullet manage to stay inside when he is in full phoenix form?

and again, you say that without knowing anything about Shanks/ BMs/ BBs FM powers.

Just as you might have your own idea of who they are and what they can do, i have my own idea.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> and again, you say that without knowing anything about Shanks/ BMs/ BBs FM powers.


I know for a fact Shanks FM can bypass Logia with bullets, otherwise he would have posed no threat to Kizaru with just regular bullets.



MasterBeast said:


> and how does the bullet manage to stay inside when he is in full phoenix form?


Can't be arsed to explain how haki works, look up Rayleigh's explanation in the manga.


----------



## Beast (Mar 26, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> I know for a fact Shanks FM can bypass Logia with bullets, otherwise he would have posed no threat to Kizaru with just regular bullets.
> 
> 
> Can't be arsed to explain how haki works, look up Rayleigh's explanation in the manga.


... or they're seastone as that was one of your other theories.


Does the haki on the bullet wear off? Ray-san only explained the basics.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 26, 2016)

Marco struggles to push most Admiral/Yonko figures past medium difficulty because of his poor attacking threat however Fujitora may be an exception here. Fujitora doesn't have the natural logia defence his C3 compatriots do to brush off Marco's best attacks as casually as Sakazuki did at MF. Plus his meteors aren't exactly the best weapon against someone who has the power of flight, which means he won't be capable of exhausting Marco's regeneration that way. He'll have to rely more on his gravity prison type and sword based attacks to achieve that. 

As Corus points out, Teach was a fantastic fit to face Marco so I don't think we'll be seeing an *overwhelming defeat* type loss for Marco this time around. My guess is that Marco could potentially push Fujitora barely to high difficulty as whilst the endurance Fujitora has to exert most likely won't be much different than any other Yonko/Admiral in the same battle, there's however more of a chance Fujitora could at least suffer some minor injuries.


----------



## Raiden34 (Mar 26, 2016)

No Admiral is beating Marco as BB did, BB has both pulling gravity + best AoE at this moment, no Admiral has anything close to these. Not to mention BB himself is a endurance beast, possibly better than Admirals.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

Nobody is arguing that BB was, most likely, stronger than most admirals during his fight against Marco. But you're not taking into account that it was a



Admiral Kizaru said:


> _*overwhelming defeat*_ type loss for Marco



That's like a really low diff fight, even with all of WB's forces backing him.

If BB can beat Marco low diff

Then most admirals(of course there's differences in match up, but on average) should beat Marco no more than mid diff


----------



## killfox (Mar 26, 2016)

As seen in the Fuji vs Sabo fight Fujis gravity doesnt affect fire. In full Zoan form Marco is a bird made out of fire. His "fire" may not burn but its "fire" none the less so he should be unaffected


----------



## Raiden34 (Mar 26, 2016)

Mid-diff fight is Law vs. Smoker, and Doflamingo vs. Law, Admirals were obviously not in a position of mid-diff fight in front of Marco or Jozu, I mean, Kizaru take help from Onigumo even though Marco has been caught off guard by him from behind, and then Jozu, Aokiji caught Jozu off guard if not he wasn't beating him as Doflamingo was beating Law, or Sabo was beating Burgess. Admirals aren't beating any Yonko FM lower than high-diffs, and they can lose fight against them if any Yonko FM gains a specific advantage over an Admirals' fighting style.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

Except you fail to mention that Jozu and Marco only  managed to injure an admiral, in the slightest sense,  when they they caught them off guard.


----------



## Raiden34 (Mar 26, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> Except you fail to mention that Jozu and Marco only  managed to injure an admiral, in the slightest sense,  when they they caught them off guard.



Aokiji sensed that Jozu was about to attack, that was hardly a caught off guard, 



while Jozu completely turned his head to Marco when Aokiji was ready to attack.



-Not to mention, did I said Yonko FM = Admirals ? I said Admirals are superior, but only a little.

-And more importantly, Aokiji has Hax power, it can end you with one mistake, even if you're stronger than him, just like Law had Hax (Gamma Knife) over Doflamingo. If Doflamingo wasn't a string user, for example, if he was a rubber user, he would be killed by Law, even though he is stronger than him, that's where Hax is useful, giving a distraction advantage to a Hax user means that you lose.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

How was Aokiji supposed to escape in time in that situation? He was literally impaled and about to attack Whitebeard. Him noticing the attack beforehand only means he's more perspective than Jozu or Marco, possibly has better precognition haki as well.

You're just listing points in the admirals favor, not the fm's.


----------



## Raiden34 (Mar 26, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> How was Aokiji supposed to escape in time in that situation? He was literally impaled and about to attack Whitebeard. Him noticing the attack beforehand only means he's more perspective than Jozu or Marco, possibly has better precognition haki as well.
> 
> You're just listing points in the admirals favor, not the fm's.



Impaled while he already used his ice element body to dodge from it, not that he actually get damage from it.

If he was in a somehow bad condition, he couldn't sense Jozu due to pain in the first place.

Aokiji had a time for taking a defensive stance while Jozu was attacking, while Jozu had none against Aokiji.

Even with Aokiji's defensive logia form, (since Aokiji turned into ice form when Jozu hit him) Jozu still manages to bleed him (unlike WB did) , which means that Jozu can actually hurt Aokiji even when he takes a defensive stance, which is a big advantage.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 26, 2016)

It can go either way, though I'd favor Marco more often than not.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 26, 2016)

You do realise that character statements are only character statements, right? Otherwise Pica could solo the entire DR cast, and Vergo would be superior to everyone on PH, both of which obviously aren't true.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 26, 2016)

Technically Fruitless Law is quite weaker than Vergo as well as Base Luffy so going by Douriki Vergo would stomp unless Zoro proves to be stronger


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> Technically Fruitless Law is quite weaker than Vergo as well as Base Luffy so going by Douriki Vergo would stomp unless Zoro proves to be stronger



The latter part of that sentence made no sense at all.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 26, 2016)

What do you mean my fellow


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

Okay, to answer my own thread, I do think that Fujitora would win this battle, possible very high diff mainly due to a bad match up. However, the latest chapter essentially reveal that Marco is the next thing to a Yonkou and he has alot more hype and portrayal to be the strongest Yonkou first mate than not. 

That said, Marco, currently is equal to the current 3 admirals, that is Kizaru, Fujitora and Greenbull all things considered. That is, if he fight these 3 100 times with different conditions, he will win 50 times.

Marco is no longer a Yonkou's first mate, he is the next thing to a Yonkou. At the same time Akainu and Kuzan are NOT Admirals anymore.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

Josh said:


> Marco is no longer a Yonkou's first mate, he is the next thing to a Yonkou.



Surely that was proven once he got wiped out with one of the strongest yonko crews backing him, right?

BB hadn't even gathered enough notoriety to be called a legit yonko at that point, and he still managed to completely destroy Marco with a yonko level crew backing him.

Your claims are not only baseless, but completely contradictory to what has been shown in the canon.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

man, some people here are so dumb


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

Negging me and providing no arguments proves that you're a lightweight and all you're capable of is Shanks wank, at which you're not all that good at either.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

Nope I negged you a few hours ago and not for that post. And now it's time to put a bunch of admiral wankers on super ignore, cuz time is money and trash will always be trash.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> and providing no arguments


----------



## Kaiser (Mar 26, 2016)

Could go either way


----------



## cry77 (Mar 26, 2016)

I view Fuji as the weakest admiral currently revealed.

Could go either way, but leaning towards Fuji extreme diff


----------



## cry77 (Mar 26, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> Surely that was proven once he got wiped out with one of the strongest yonko crews backing him, right?
> 
> BB hadn't even gathered enough notoriety to be called a legit yonko at that point, and he still managed to completely destroy Marco with a yonko level crew backing him.
> 
> Your claims are not only baseless, but completely contradictory to what has been shown in the canon.


If you took Kaidous crew, killed Kaidou himself off along with his fourth and (likely) fifth strongest fighters, and they too would suffer an overwhelming defeat.

Marco was mentioned as a force able to stop BB's advancement alongside the yonkou. 
Not saying he is AS strong as them or the admirals, but this downplaying needs to stop. Not a single person alive can defeat Marco with anything below high difficulty.


----------



## barreltheif (Mar 26, 2016)

cry77 said:


> If you took Kaidous crew, killed Kaidou himself off along with his fourth and (likely) fifth strongest fighters, and they too would suffer an overwhelming defeat.
> Marco was mentioned as a force able to stop BB's advancement alongside the yonkou.
> Not saying he is AS strong as them or the admirals, but this downplaying needs to stop.




I doubt that Jack + the two other calamities + X Drake + Kaido's other commanders + 500 zoans + more fodder would be *obliterated* by the Blackbeard pirates as they were one year ago.




> Not a single person alive can defeat Marco with anything below high difficulty.




Absolute. Fucking. Bullshit. Teach can and did. The WB remnants were *obliterated*. That was Teach one year ago. Current Teach is stronger than him. Kaido is stronger than Teach. But it's cute that you think you know better than Oda.


----------



## Lord Stark (Mar 26, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> Marco's DC < G4 Luffy's DC btw



Nah.  Marco sent Kizaru and Aokiji flying just as far as Luffy sent Doffy. If anything Marco's is superior.  

As for this fight.  From what I've seen Marco has the slightest edge.  He has amazing regen, great physical power, and is imo faster than Fujitora.  Marco extreme difficulty.  

The thing is that unlike the C3 Fujitora lacks the longevity in a fight they'd have thanks to their Logia abilities.  Marco has similar longevity.


----------



## cry77 (Mar 26, 2016)

barreltheif said:


> I doubt that Jack + the two other calamities + X Drake + Kaido's other commanders + 500 zoans + more fodder would be *obliterated* by the Blackbeard pirates as they were one year ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jack isnt stronger than Marco. X-Drake is an ally of Kaidou, not a crew member so he is not relevant here. Kaidous fourth and fifth strongest commanders are also not relevant for the comparasion to be valid, so that leaves Jack alone along with one other calamity and a bunch of fodder-zoans that couldnt even defeat Brook A single Black Hole would probably take out the first 495 Zoans along with the fodder. 

And what in the blue fuck makes you believe BB defeated Marco in a legititmate one on one? We all know how he fights, so stop using that battledome logic where every fighter has an individual opponent. It's very likely that BB's crew ganged up on him, seeing as Jozu was lac,king an arm, and thus would probably be weaker than Vista. The WB pirates werent even close to full strenght, and with similar handicaps any yonkou crew would suffer an overwhelming defeat against BBs crew. Marco himself though, is still the same top-tier yonkou contender he was before, he just lacked a strong enough crew to back him up.

the BB PIRATES defeated the WB PIRATES in an overwhelming victory. Not anywhere does it say BB defeated Marco individually. And if BB himself was so much fucking stronger than Marco, he wouldnt need to defeat him to be acknowledged as a yonkou.

The Gorosei themselves compared Marco to the yonkou, and clearly he was a legititmate contender for the position himself. Otherwise, BB wouldnt need to defeat his former crew mates to get the title.But it's cute you have the reading comprehension of a 12-year old.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 26, 2016)

You're all dummies for disagreeing with my point of view!!



Vivo Diez said:


> How was Aokiji supposed to escape in time in that situation? He was literally impaled and about to attack Whitebeard. Him noticing the attack beforehand only means he's more perspective than Jozu or Marco, possibly has better precognition haki as well.
> 
> You're just listing points in the admirals favor, not the fm's.



lol. I believe he actually thinks Aokiji should have ignored the big massive threat of MOTHERFUCKING Whitebeard right in front of him to concentrate on Jozu's incoming attack. You can't reason with that level of thinking tbh. 



Dunno said:


> You do realise that character statements are only character statements, right? Otherwise Pica could solo the entire DR cast, and Vergo would be superior to everyone on PH, both of which obviously aren't true.



Wait, you're telling me that Sentomaru was lying when he claimed to have the world's greatest defence!? Say it ain't so man. 



Vivo Diez said:


> Negging me and providing no arguments proves that you're a lightweight and all you're capable of is Shanks wank, at which you're not all that good at either.



lol. 



barreltheif said:


> Absolute. Fucking. Bullshit. Teach can and did. The WB remnants were *obliterated*. That was Teach one year ago. Current Teach is stronger than him. Kaido is stronger than Teach. But it's cute that you think you know better than Oda.



How dare you disrupt this thread by introducing canon manga facts to it!! Don't you realise that people need to cling on to their previously held delusions no matter what new evidence Oda presents to us!!


----------



## Lord Stark (Mar 26, 2016)

cry77 said:


> Jack isnt stronger than Marco. X-Drake is an ally of Kaidou, not a crew member so he is not relevant here. Kaidous fourth and fifth strongest commanders are also not relevant for the comparasion to be valid, so that leaves Jack alone along with one other calamity and a bunch of fodder-zoans that couldnt even defeat Brook A single Black Hole would probably take out the first 495 Zoans along with the fodder.
> 
> And what in the blue fuck makes you believe BB defeated Marco in a legititmate one on one? We all know how he fights, so stop using that battledome logic where every fighter has an individual opponent. It's very likely that BB's crew ganged up on him, seeing as Jozu was lac,king an arm, and thus would probably be weaker than Vista. The WB pirates werent even close to full strenght, and with similar handicaps any yonkou crew would suffer an overwhelming defeat against BBs crew. Marco himself though, is still the same top-tier yonkou contender he was before, he just lacked a strong enough crew to back him up.
> 
> ...



Lets not forget Blackbeard has 20 years of intimate knowledge of the WB pirate's territory and abilities where as Marco and company are fighting up against complete unknowns aside from BB himself.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

cry77 said:


> Jack isnt stronger than Marco.


You don't know that.



cry77 said:


> X-Drake is an ally of Kaidou, not a crew member so he is not relevant here.


Does it matter? WB had a shit ton of allies on his side that weren't directly his crew members that participated in the war.



cry77 said:


> Kaidous fourth and fifth strongest commanders are also not relevant for the comparasion to be valid


That's you presuming that they're not valid without knowing anything about them.



cry77 said:


> fodder-zoans that couldnt even defeat Brook


Even if going by your logic, 500 brook level zoans is nothing to scoff at.



cry77 said:


> And what in the blue fuck makes you believe BB defeated Marco in a legititmate one on one? We all know how he fights, so stop using that battledome logic where every fighter has an individual opponent.


Marco was the initiator of the fight, *he had every advantage he could possibly want*. Even the manga panel specifically shows Marco and BB facing off. Your logic of the two strongest on each side not fighting each other in a battle manga is idiotic.


cry77 said:


> the BB PIRATES defeated the WB PIRATES in an overwhelming victory. Not anywhere does it say BB defeated Marco individually. And if BB himself was so much fucking stronger than Marco, he wouldnt need to defeat him to be acknowledged as a yonkou.


So you're saying BB wasn't all that fucking strong and didn't have a yonko level crew...but still completely destroyed someone who did have a yonko level crew? Where's your logic man ? I thought you were defending Marco.


----------



## cry77 (Mar 26, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> You don't know that.
> 
> 
> Does it matter? WB had a shit ton of allies on his side that weren't directly his crew members that participated in the war.
> ...


Currently, more points towards Marco being the stronger one. Was Jack mentioned by the Gorosei? 

Yes it matters, Marco didnt bring his allies to the Payback war. If he did, Weevil wouldnt really have been able to defeat so many if they already were defeated.

BB would rape 500 Brooks with a single Black Hole. So would Marco, but it would take longer time due to the different fighting styles and Marcos lack of AOE. Brook level fighters are nonfactors here.

The panel showed the leader of each faction, that's it. And why would Oda adhere to manga-rules in a fight that was off-panelled?   

Never did I say BB wasnt strong. He IS strong, and stronger than Marco no doubt. Not once did I state otherwise, please reread my post. Just saying you have to look at this war with all its contenders, and not just degrade it as a simple BB vs Marco when a lot of other powerful fighters were helping as well. Had Marco challenged BB to a personal duel you would have a point, but since he didnt, you dont.

But please answer my question: why did the OPverse only begin viewing BB as a yonkou AFTER his crew defeated Marcos if BB was so much goddamn stronger than him? Clearly Marco and BB were seen as the main contenders and they wouldnt have been so, if BB alone could rape Marco in a fight, or even mid-diff him. 

Marco is weaker than BB, had they fought in a personal duel, BB would have won high/extreme diff, depening on how much stronger he grew during the one year.

Marco only suffered an overwbhelming defeat because his total military ressources was far weaker than BBs, but that has nothing to do with Marcos personal fighting strenght. He just had a far weaker crew.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

Can't be arsed to answer everything atm, but consider this. If Marco still had a big enough of a crew to be considered a yonko, while BB still wasn't considered one, who was the one with a bigger military force do you think?


----------



## cry77 (Mar 26, 2016)

Dont understand your question. Who said BB wasnt a contender for the yonkou position? My point is that the Gorosei clearly saw Marco and BB as the top contenders for WB's position. They wouldnt have considered Marco a top contender if he could be mid-diffed by the other contender. Hence, BB was first 'crowned' after he proved he could beat Marco and his crew.
 If Marco had a fully powered pre-MF crew with Ace alive, and Jozu having two arms then he wouldnt have suffered an overwhelming defeat. Especially considering Ace would likely have grown into top-tier level himself had he lived a year longer. They would still lose, but it would closer.


----------



## Chrollo Lucilfer (Mar 26, 2016)

Josh said:


> Now that we have a little more info about how strong Marco and Fujitora are, let's see how they fair against each other again.
> 
> Let's review some recent hype/dehype
> 
> ...



What the shit? Reading comprehension op, rocky?


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

Suck a banana Chrollo


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

cry77 said:


> Dont understand your question. Who said BB wasnt a contender for the yonkou position? My point is that the Gorosei clearly saw Marco and BB as the top contenders for WB's position. They wouldnt have considered Marco a top contender if he could be mid-diffed by the other contender. Hence, BB was first 'crowned' after he proved he could beat Marco and his crew.
> If Marco had a fully powered pre-MF crew with Ace alive, and Jozu having two arms then he wouldnt have suffered an overwhelming defeat. Especially considering Ace would likely have grown into top-tier level himself had he lived a year longer. They would still lose, but it would closer.



I don't understand why it's hard for you to understand, that at a time when two crews were considered for a yonko position, one of them completely destroyed the other.

Saying Marco had an inadequate crew goes against them being considered for the yonko position. Also, we've seen Burgess a year after that war and he was nothing impressive. Presuming he was even weaker a year before that, combatants like one armed Jozu or Vista would have completely destroyed him. So it's not like Marco had much weaker allies backing him(not to mention 11 or so other commanders backing him, plus other WB allies no doubt).

With compare-able crews, losing this badly only falls on Marco's shoulders. If he had the ability to give BB a decent fight, with the crews they had, then it definitely wouldn't have been a complete defeat.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

Btw, can't we stop this bullshit with the word 'obliterated'? No offensive, but people who's grasping on to that word is legitimated retarded. Everyone and their mom would know that Marco, Jozu, Vista and the rest of the WB commanders are still alive and will play a major part in the Kaido war and the final war. 

As a result, this is simply another bullshit hype and the the Marco pirate is certainly not  annihilate.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 26, 2016)

Being alive & getting ass fucked is completely different thing.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2016)

Sherlōck said:


> Being alive & getting ass fucked is completely different thing.



No one got ass fuck, mate. 

They essentially got off panel and still alive. No one knows what happen or who was involved in BB's team. We all know Marco most likely had everyone of those VA level allies back at NF, while BB could have even stronger allies like Kaido + Wano, Big Mom + Vinsmoke. Who the fuck knows. Maybe Aokiji was helping BB out in that war.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 26, 2016)

He says:


Josh said:


> No one knows what happen or who was involved in BB's team.


Yet he proceeds to say:


Josh said:


> We all know Marco most likely had everyone of those VA level allies back at NF, while BB could have even stronger allies like Kaido + Wano, Big Mom + Vinsmoke. Who the fuck knows. Maybe Aokiji was helping BB out in that war.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 26, 2016)

Josh said:


> No one got ass fuck, mate.
> 
> They essentially got off panel and still alive. No one knows what happen or who was involved in BB's team. We all know Marco most likely had everyone of those VA level allies back at NF, while BB could have even stronger allies like Kaido + Wano, Big Mom + Vinsmoke. Who the fuck knows. Maybe Aokiji was helping BB out in that war.



Hmm,they did get ass fucked. They got ass fucked so hard they went into hiding. Oda said so himself. *OVERWHELMING DEFEAT* was the word he used to describe it I think. 

And no,there is no indication of BB having strong as fuck allies.Stop with the fan fiction to save face. Not saying he doesn't have ally captains under him. On the other hand there is plenty of proof of Marco used all the 43 allies. They all called him pops. It would not make sense if they didn't participate.It would be a disgrace .


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 27, 2016)

Fuji didn't fight Luffy anywhere near serious or Law for that matter (who he was dozens of times more "serious" against), and fighting a Yonko entails more than fighting an admiral (Yonko Crew >>>> basic Marine back up see Fujitora in DR).


----------



## Chrollo Lucilfer (Mar 27, 2016)

You start with saying the overwhelming defeat was a mistranslation and over exaggerated then you end with saying 


> People with half a brain should know that this battle is essentially Marco, Jozo, Vista vs. BB, Shillew and all the Level 6 prisoners. Everyone else is pretty much redundant. Not only Marco pirates got overwhelming with numbers but overall core powers + hax.
> 
> If we swap out Marco pirates and the allies, and have Fujitora + all the VAs and those 100,000 fodder marines, the marines would suffer the same treatment.


basically that the wb pirates suffered that same _*OVERWHELMING DEFEAT*_

w-what's your point exactly?


----------



## Shanks (Mar 27, 2016)

My point being you should go back to sucking that banana, mate.


----------



## Chrollo Lucilfer (Mar 27, 2016)

i'm not mocking you like sherlock and vivo yet i'm the only one you're mocking


----------



## Tenma (Mar 27, 2016)

Marco and the WB Pirates are probably the easiest target in the manga for their epic string of failures but there's no denying he's strong. The only Admiral who proved decisively superior to him was Akainu who is obviously also stronger than Fuji.

Marco doesn't have the most offensive power out there but between those useless meteors, falling rubble and his signature move which is basically force push Fuji isn't exactly a bastion of devastating lethality either. Still he's an admiral, and he was beating Sabo so I give him the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Mar 27, 2016)

I'm still trying to understand what makes Marco impressive beyond his devil fruit because while he can regen from damage what else can he accomplish other than stalling?


----------



## Shanks (Mar 27, 2016)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> i'm not mocking you like sherlock and vivo yet i'm the only one you're mocking



banana are healthy, mate. It's not a bad thing to suck on one.


----------



## barreltheif (Mar 27, 2016)

Josh said:


> Btw, can't we stop this bullshit with the word 'obliterated'? *No offensive*, but people who's grasping on to that word is *legitimated retarded*. Everyone and their mom would know that Marco, Jozu, Vista and the rest of the WB commanders are still alive and will play a major part in the Kaido war and the final war. As a result, this is simply another bullshit hype and the the Marco pirate is certainly *not  annihilate*.




I sincerely apologize on Oda's behalf for having Robin state that the WB pirates were *obliterated*. I'll inform him of your dissatisfaction.
(Also, "obliterated" doesn't mean that they died. It just means that they got wrecked. Destroyed. Demolished. Etc. Welcome to the English language.)




cry77 said:


> Jack isnt stronger than Marco.




You made this up. And on top of this, we don't even know whether Jack is the strongest calamity. There could still be another calamity stronger than Marco, even if Jack isn't.



> X-Drake is an ally of Kaidou, not a crew member




You made this up.



> that leaves Jack alone along with one other calamity and a bunch of fodder-zoans that couldnt even defeat Brook




No, it leaves all three calamities + all other commanders (besides #4 and #5) + 500 zoans (who together can certainly *obliterate* Brook even harder than WB pirates were *obliterated*) + DFless fodder like Scotch.




> And what in the blue fuck makes you believe BB defeated Marco in a legititmate one on one? We all know how he fights, so stop using that battledome logic where every fighter has an individual opponent. It's very likely that BB's crew ganged up on him, seeing as Jozu was lac,king an arm, and thus would probably be weaker than Vista. The WB pirates werent even close to full strenght, and with similar handicaps any yonkou crew would suffer an overwhelming defeat against BBs crew. Marco himself though, is still the same top-tier yonkou contender he was before, he just lacked a strong enough crew to back him up.
> the BB PIRATES defeated the WB PIRATES in an overwhelming victory. Not anywhere does it say BB defeated Marco individually. And if BB himself was so much fucking stronger than Marco, he wouldnt need to defeat him to be acknowledged as a yonkou.




The gap between Marco and Jozu/Vista is probably smaller than the gap between Teach and his #2 and #3. If Marco could give a high diff fight to Teach (one year ago), then Jozu and Vista could give a very close fight to his #2 and #3, and maybe beat them. If that had happened, then Robin would have said "the WB remnants gave the Blackbeard pirates a very close fight", not "they were *obliterated*".



> The Gorosei themselves compared Marco to the yonkou, and clearly he was a legititmate contender for the position himself. Otherwise, BB wouldnt need to defeat his former crew mates to get the title.But it's cute you have the reading comprehension of a 12-year old.




Wrong. The Gorosei did not compare Marco to the yonkou, nor did they suggest that he could become a yonkou. They listed Marco, together with the WB remnants, as a group that might be able to stop Teach. The yonkou were also on the list. That does not put Marco on par with or close to the yonkou.
More importantly, the Gorosei were wrong. The WB remnants were *obliterated* only halfway through the timeskip.

Of course Teach needed to beat Marco to become a yonkou. A yonkou, by definition, is a pirate who controls a large amount of territory in the New World. The WB pirates controlled territory, and it was only by defeating them that Teach could acquire their territory and become a yonkou.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 27, 2016)

When Marco and his entire crew survived and were able to retreat, they did not get destroyed, whether you like it or not. If they did actually get obliterated, then BB would have killed them and stole their fruit. This is exactly the same as saying Jack died and we all know he did not. 


Really, when did OL gave birth to all these dumb fucks without half a brain anyway? I swear, OL was terrible, but not this bad.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 27, 2016)

To be fair, this "overwhelming defeat" thing is merely a character statement. It's what Robin has heard happened, and not actually fact. You have to take it with a grain of salt, just like with other character statements like how Moria was Kaido's rival, how the slash Jozu blocked was the strongest slash in the world or how the darkness fruit is the most powerful DF in the world.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 27, 2016)

Thanks for the neg Josh. Beta mindset is beta. 



Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> i'm not mocking you like sherlock and vivo yet i'm the only one you're mocking



I didn't even start Chrollo.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 27, 2016)

Hey that's not beta mindset that's shitty mindset


----------



## Shanks (Mar 27, 2016)

All these bitches complaining about negs. Just neg back or some shit. It's only like - 2K or something.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 27, 2016)

Jozu might have been a better one?

But I don't think he would push Issho further than Marco can


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 27, 2016)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Hope you youngsters know who this is and understand the relevance. Or maybe I'm just too much of an old fart. 




*OBLITERATED* was literally the official term used in the Viz translation (the best translation). The guy who's trying to pathetically pretend that's not the case now even posted on that thread. 





Vivo Diez said:


> He says:
> 
> Yet he proceeds to say:



Yeah I hilariously noticed that as well. When you're wallowing in a stream of shit to try and protect your hopes in the face of facts, you're eventually going to trip yourself up in it. 

Your only recourse when you can't disapprove things logically (as seen in this thread) is to imply that everyone else is dumb (and your smart by extension), throw around you imaginary online power and neg people. What a joke. 



Dunno said:


> To be fair, this "overwhelming defeat" thing is merely a character statement. It's what Robin has heard happened, and not actually fact. You have to take it with a grain of salt, just like with other character statements like how Moria was Kaido's rival, how the slash Jozu blocked was the strongest slash in the world or how the darkness fruit is the most powerful DF in the world.



No!! That's a false equivalency! It's all about context and meaning. 

Character's foolishly bigging themselves or their powers up is common in One Piece. In fact it's a standard Shounen trope and the examples already listed of Pica, Vergo and Sentomaru highlight that. 

Robin however was reporting on facts, an event that had *actually occurred*. Not a hypothetical, make believe fantasy scenario like the others. Robin wasn't affiliated with either party (the BB or the Marco pirates) and had nothing to gain from either under or over hyping the conflict, nor like Usopp is she particularly known for lying. You can take her statement about the outcome of the war as gospel.


----------



## Kaiser (Mar 27, 2016)

It's the group that got obliterated, overwhelmed or whatever. I doubt Marco himself was or at least not a 1 on 1 otherwise Blackbeard would have taken his devil fruit. His devil fruit is rarer than even logias and we know that blackbeard pirates are hunting for devil fruits. If they had Marco at their mercy, why didn't they take his devil fruit? There is definitely something fishy about it that we need to understand... Looks to me that his army was overwhelmed and he was forced to retreat

Not that off-panel matters anyway. We've seen the war of the best with our own eyes, and he was fighting on similar level with all admirals except maybe Akainu, which is enough for me to think this fight could go either way especially after seeing Fujitora's shitty dressrosa portrayal


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 27, 2016)

How do you know they didn't take his fruit? You don't. Your point is basically falls apart by itself.



Josh said:


> All these bitches complaining about negs. Just neg back or some shit. It's only like - 2K or something.



Who do you think I am? Josh?


----------



## Kaiser (Mar 27, 2016)

Sherlōck said:


> How do you know they didn't take his fruit? You don't. Your point is basically falls apart by itself.


Because he is still alive? :/


----------



## Dunno (Mar 27, 2016)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> No!! That's a false equivalency! It's all about context and meaning.
> 
> Character's foolishly bigging themselves or their powers up is common in One Piece. In fact it's a standard Shounen trope and the examples already listed of Pica, Vergo and Sentomaru highlight that.
> 
> Robin however was reporting on facts, an event that had *actually occurred*. Not a hypothetical, make believe fantasy scenario like the others. Robin wasn't affiliated with either party (the BB or the Marco pirates) and had nothing to gain from either under or over hyping the conflict, nor like Usopp is she particularly known for lying. You can take her statement about the outcome of the war as gospel.



Of course it's not as far from the truth as some of the other examples, but it's still only hearsay. She heard about it or read about it in a magazine, she didn't see it herself. Robin wasn't affiliated with either side, but whatever source she got her info from probably has some kind of agenda. The event obviously happened, but Robin doesn't know exactly how it went down, and thus her choice of words have little meaning.


----------



## cry77 (Mar 27, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> I don't understand why it's hard for you to understand, that at a time when two crews were considered for a yonko position, one of them completely destroyed the other.
> 
> Saying Marco had an inadequate crew goes against them being considered for the yonko position. Also, we've seen Burgess a year after that war and he was nothing impressive. Presuming he was even weaker a year before that, combatants like one armed Jozu or Vista would have completely destroyed him. So it's not like Marco had much weaker allies backing him(not to mention 11 or so other commanders backing him, plus other WB allies no doubt).
> 
> With compare-able crews, losing this badly only falls on Marco's shoulders. If he had the ability to give BB a decent fight, with the crews they had, then it definitely wouldn't have been a complete defeat.


Because one CREW was a alot stronger than the other. Nowhere does it say that the man who was mentioned alongside the fucking yonkou by the fucking Gorosei themselves was mid-diffed by anyone in  a personal fight. Remember how WB had a heart attack which started a chain reaction? If Jozu, who now lacks an arm, lost relatively quickly to his oppponent, let's say Shiriyuu, obviously the latter would come to BB's aid, if we assume he was fighting Marco. two top tiers against one will always be an overwhelming defeat.

He had an inadequate crew compared to the Final Villain. Or close to. No shame in that. It still doesnt diminish Marco's personal strenght. Not one bit.

Burgess is probably weaker than every single ID crewmember, so he really isnt representative of their full power.

Once again, no WB allies were helping him. Had they, Weevil wouldnt have been able to find them and kill them, considering they would most likely be dead already.

"With compare-able crews"
They didnt have comparable crews, thus your point is moot.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 27, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Of course it's not as far from the truth as some of the other examples, but it's still only hearsay. She heard about it or read about it in a magazine, she didn't see it herself. Robin wasn't affiliated with either side, but whatever source she got her info from probably has some kind of agenda. The event obviously happened, but Robin doesn't know exactly how it went down, and thus her choice of words have little meaning.



I disagree. 

If she was attempting to give a detailed outline of the war on an hour to hour basis then I'd agree with you. You're right, she wasn't there, she had no way of knowing how each individual action in the conflict played out. 

But this isn't the case. All she's done is use one word to describe the outcome: *OBLITERATED*. It's possible to conclude that from the right secondary sources alone.

Bear in mind also, that she was with the Revos over the TS who probably have their own information gathering network free from any WG interference. Not that I think that the WG have any interest in overhyping the scale of Teach's win either, if anything they'd want to downplay how badly the WB remnants lost by.  

The whole scene was basically a standard info dump from Oda, similar to how he had Jinbe tell the SH's about Akainu vs Aokiji and how close it was, despite obviously not being there personally to witness it first hand. Like that incident, I think you can assume it to be pretty much true.


----------



## Dunno (Mar 27, 2016)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> I disagree.
> 
> If she was attempting to give a detailed outline of the war on an hour to hour basis then I'd agree with you. You're right, she wasn't there, she had no way of knowing how each individual action in the conflict played out.
> 
> ...



It could indeed be like the Akainu-Aokiji incident, but it could just as well be like the Jack-died incident.  We don't have enough info at this point to determine it.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 27, 2016)

Marco is just a tad stronger than Doffy

He couldn't win


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Mar 27, 2016)

Makes you wonder how the world's strongest man ended up with such a disappointing first mate.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 27, 2016)

People think the same about Zoro on this board


----------



## Raiden34 (Mar 27, 2016)

Shiryu of the Rain and Avalo Pizarro (or Vasco Shot perhaps?) could be more powerful than Jozu and Vista, but I really doubt they would win easily, unlike some people here think.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 27, 2016)

cry77 said:


> Burgess is probably weaker than every single ID crewmember, so he really isnt representative of their full power.


The BB crew member that's had the most screen time outside of Blackbeard himself is the weakest member 


cry77 said:


> Once again, no WB allies were helping him. Had they, Weevil wouldnt have been able to find them and kill them, considering they would most likely be dead already.


You just implied that all of the WB commanders survived the war, why couldn't WB's allies as well? Why are you cherry picking and deciding who lives or doesn't to suit your arguments?


----------



## Raiden34 (Mar 27, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> The BB crew member that's had the most screen time outside of Blackbeard himself is the weakest member



This is some bullshit logic, all SH's has equal screen time, is that mean Zoro = Nami, or Sanji = Usopp ......

Burgess had more time because he was in Dressrosa unlike other BB pirates were, not that he had take more time when they all together....


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 27, 2016)

Burgess had more emphasis and screentime even pre-timeskip. Blackbeard talks about serious issues like Shiryu and Aokiji with the guy, he's clearly not some pushover than Blackbeard doesn't respect.

Also, giving him the title of "Captain of the first ship" is another pretty good indication.


----------



## cry77 (Mar 27, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> The BB crew member that's had the most screen time outside of Blackbeard himself is the weakest member
> 
> You just implied that all of the WB commanders survived the war, why couldn't WB's allies as well? Why are you cherry picking and deciding who lives or doesn't to suit your arguments?


Galdino had more screen time than both Mr.4, Mr1 and Ms. Doublefinger. All three are stronger than him, and the latter two would literally rape him. 

Oda is saving the best for last, so Burgess already being defeated by Sabo only enforces the point. I dont think any of the original members are as strong as the ID crew.

They could have participated, but then I could make the same argument that BB had allies helping him as well. So it's kind of a moot point either way. And especially considering the personal nature of the war, it makes more sense for the WB pirates to enforce their vengence alone. But admittedly, neither you nor me knows for sure.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 27, 2016)

cry77 said:


> Galdino had more screen time than both Mr.4, Mr1 and Ms. Doublefinger. All three are stronger than him, and the latter two would literally rape him.


Galdino's purpose in the story was never that of a serious combatant enemy. Burgess we've seen to always be the initiator in battles out of BB's crew. Big difference.


cry77 said:


> Oda is saving the best for last, so Burgess already being defeated by Sabo only enforces the point. I dont think any of the original members are as strong as the ID crew.


-I'm really doubtful Oda would say he's the captain of the first ship only to make him the weakest from the crew. 
-Blackbeard would not discuss serious issues with Burgess if he was not a high standing crew member.
-He would also not send him to a combat arena if there were other significantly stronger members in the crew that could stand a much bigger chance at winning the fruit than Burgess.


----------



## Venom (Mar 27, 2016)

Josh said:


> Then again Robin did say Big Mom is leagues above all enemies they fought previously, which include Kizaru also





Josh said:


> She did say 'leagues above' so it's about right





Josh said:


> I don't see a difference. All translations are pointing to Big Mom is significantly stronger than all previous opponents.





Josh said:


> Btw, just having a abit of fun during bored times guys. People who jack off to Admirals at night are looking down on Marco too much after the last chapter with that off panel battle these days.
> 
> Happy Easter, I'm heading off to celebrate



Sparklingwater pls


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 27, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Means nothing unless someone takes the title of ''Vice-captain''  which is not the case.
> 
> E.Oda specifically said that division numbers doesn't indicate strength.
> 
> ...



You keep bringing that up, yet the top 5 division commanders from WB's crew were clearly the strongest. If numbers were really not indicative of strength, why was Marco the first division commander? Why were Jozu, Ace and Vista between 2-5 division commanders? 

Oda could have said that as to not clearly indicate which was the strongest between Jozu, Vista and Ace, and which were the strongest between 6 and up division commanders.

And I'm not even saying Burgess is the strongest from the bunch, but it's not logical to give one of the weakest members the name of "First Ship Captain".

We've even seen the same shit with SH's grand fleet, where Cavendish is the first division commander, Bart is the second division commander, Sai is the third division commander and then Orlumbus is last.


----------



## Raiden34 (Mar 27, 2016)

Here we go, once again Vivo denies the truths that come directly from E.Oda....


----------



## Chrollo Lucilfer (Mar 27, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> People think the same about Zoro on this board



said literally no one ever


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 27, 2016)

Kaiser said:


> Because he is still alive? :/



And? Oda still haven't showed the exact method of how BB did it. We just know he took WB's fruit after he killed WB which is really convenient way to do without interruption. We don't know if he can do it when characters are alive or not. Its an unknown factor. You can throw out a theory but you can't use it to support your argument.


----------



## cry77 (Mar 27, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> Galdino's purpose in the story was never that of a serious combatant enemy. Burgess we've seen to always be the initiator in battles out of BB's crew. Big difference.
> 
> -I'm really doubtful Oda would say he's the captain of the first ship only to make him the weakest from the crew.
> -Blackbeard would not discuss serious issues with Burgess if he was not a high standing crew member.
> -He would also not send him to a combat arena if there were other significantly stronger members in the crew that could stand a much bigger chance at winning the fruit than Burgess.


Galdino was the main antagonist of the Little Garden arc   He had a much bigger impact on the whole BW saga than any of the other 3 I mentioned. In fact, had it not been for him, the entire SH crew would have died in Rainbase. 

- Never said he was the weakest, just that the ID crewmembers are stronger. Burgess can still be stronger than Lafitte, Doc Q, Auger etc.
- BB discusses serious matters with all of his commanders. Besides, Burgess being weaker than some of the other crewmembers doesnt mean he isnt trusted by BB. Luffy discusses serious matters with Usopp as well.
- BB is a yonkou. He cannot afford to send his top dogs all the way to Dressrosa. That would leaver him vulnerable against the other yonkou crews. Besides, had it not been for Sabo, Burgess would be more than capable of winning the fruit. BB had no idea Sabo would be there.




Vivo Diez said:


> You keep bringing that up, yet the top 5 division commanders from WB's crew were clearly the strongest. If numbers were really not indicative of strength, why was Marco the first division commander? Why were Jozu, Ace and Vista between 2-5 division commanders?
> 
> Oda could have said that as to not clearly indicate which was the strongest between Jozu, Vista and Ace, and which were the strongest between 6 and up division commanders.
> 
> ...



We know for a fact that Ace got his position as 2. division commander because it just so happened to be vacant. Were they based on strenght, Vista would have been promoted instead since he's stronger than Ace was at the time. In fact, since Vista wasnt promoted to 4th division commander after Thatchs death disproves your point. And that's not even taking into account that Oda himself confirmed this  You're grasping at straws here, man.

Burgess could have gotten the position because BB trusts him the most. Perhaps he has been with him the longest. But in no way does that mean he is the strongest. No way the strongest crewmember of a yonkou would lose to Sabo like that. If he indeed is the strongest, the BB pirates are gonna get raped by the revos.



Sherlōck said:


> And? Oda still haven't showed the exact method of how BB did it. We just know he took WB's fruit after he killed WB which is really convenient way to do without interruption. We don't know if he can do it when characters are alive or not. Its an unknown factor. You can throw out a theory but you can't use it to support your argument.


Currently, everything points towards the user needing to be dead before, as we saw with BB pirates killing WB, and Ceaser killing Smiley. If you want to debate otherwise, the burden of proof is on you.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 27, 2016)

Now that I think about it Sabo with his mera mastered should give very high diff to Issho and Marco should be on a similar level, so I'll increase the difficulty here


----------



## Lord Stark (Mar 27, 2016)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow..._obliterated_? 

And no ferocious battle?  Gonna need to reevaluate.

I would like to point out that if someone was describing Enies Lobby, the Straw Hats obliterated CP9 in less than a day, but that doesn't mean they weren't hard fought battles and an extreme diff win for Luffy against Lucci.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 27, 2016)

cry77 said:


> - Never said he was the weakest, just that the ID crewmembers are stronger. Burgess can still be stronger than Lafitte, Doc Q, Auger etc.


Baseless speculation that they're stronger just because they're from ID.


cry77 said:


> - BB discusses serious matters with all of his commanders.


Does he?


cry77 said:


> - BB is a yonkou. He cannot afford to send his top dogs all the way to Dressrosa.hat would leaver him vulnerable against the other yonkou crews.


That's implying Burgess isn't a top dog in the first place. Also, if you're saying that the Impel Down pirates are stronger than Burgess, then BB could have sent any of them instead. Burgess serves as helmsman as well as a combatant, while BB pirates like Avalo and Vasco seem to only serve as combatants.



cry77 said:


> Besides, had it not been for Sabo, Burgess would be more than capable of winning the fruit. BB had no idea Sabo would be there.


BB had no idea who would be there to challenge Burgess. If he's determined to get a rare DF through an arena where anyone from the new world can participate, won't he send one of his strongest combatants?


cry77 said:


> We know for a fact that Ace got his position as 2. division commander because it just so happened to be vacant. Were they based on strenght, Vista would have been promoted instead since he's stronger than Ace was at the time. In fact, since Vista wasnt promoted to 4th division commander after Thatchs death disproves your point. And that's not even taking into account that Oda himself confirmed this  You're grasping at straws here, man.


Never did I say that they were direct representations of their strength, but to ignore that the strongest WB pirates were all within the first five divisions is stupid.


cry77 said:


> Burgess could have gotten the position because BB trusts him the most. Perhaps he has been with him the longest. But in no way does that mean he is the strongest. No way the strongest crewmember of a yonkou would lose to Sabo like that. If he indeed is the strongest, the BB pirates are gonna get raped by the revos.


It's not out of the realm of possibility(although I obviously think Aokiji and possibly Shiryu are stronger) that he's one of the top 5 fighters, in fact, several factors indicate that he is. Sabo is the second strongest in the whole revo army, there's no shame in losing to him. With Aokiji and two of the strongest DF's in their respective categories, BB already has a huge advantage. If none of the BB pirates measure up to Sabo, it's still fine.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 27, 2016)

If they fight fruitless Fuji still wins, so Issho has better base stats overall


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 27, 2016)

cry77 said:


> Currently, everything points towards the user *needing *to be dead before, as we saw with BB pirates killing WB, and Ceaser killing Smiley. If you want to debate otherwise, the burden of proof is on you.



Needing? That's a strong word with no backup. 

What would BB do? Try to take his fruit when WB's half dead self was destroying him? And Ceaser's method is probably completely different from BB's as the most plausible theory is that BB can do it cause of his DF. Its still a theory cause we don't know how he fucking did it.  

Sorry,the burden of proof isn't on me. I didn't claim shit. You did with big words & its your job to back it up. Not mine.


----------



## Kaiser (Mar 27, 2016)

It was clearly implied that they need to kill the user to do it



Not to mention we have a visible example in dressrosa with Luffy who was on his last legs(confirmed by Burgess himself) who tried to kill him with a dagger before taking his devil fruit

It's clearly needed


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 27, 2016)

Well,that's more of a proof I was looking for. Seems like Marco still has his DF then.


----------



## NUMBA1TROLL (Mar 27, 2016)

The failure of a FM vs. a failure of an admiral.

Well, admiral still > than FM.

The shitty Tiger eats the stupid pineapple for breakfast.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 27, 2016)

Fujitora vs Beckman would be a good fight to watch


----------



## Rob (Mar 27, 2016)

>Saw the thread title
>Knew it would get a shit-ton of pages


----------



## cry77 (Mar 27, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> If they fight fruitless Fuji still wins, so Issho has better base stats overall


Considering Issho is old and blind, I have a hard time believing his base stats are better than Marco's, especially considering he has a zoan fruit which directly acts as a physical stats multiplier.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 27, 2016)

Base Fuji is stronger than Base Akainu bro

At least he has great swordsmanship skills, did you forget how Akainu managed against WB before pulling off his magma?


----------



## Gohara (Mar 27, 2016)

Marco wins with high to extremely high difficulty, IMO.  Marco has fought on par with and at one point bested an Admiral.  Based on that and my opinion that the average Yonkou First Mate is more powerful than the average Admiral, I give Marco the benefit of the doubt over any Admiral outside of Pre Time Skip Akainu.

As for what Robin said, she didn't say leagues, although Josh has stated that he was kidding.  However, if the translation is correct, I can see why he would use it as evidence.  The Straw Hat Pirates have fought Admirals around a handful of times.  The idea that Robin isn't including the Admirals is unlikely.


----------



## cry77 (Mar 27, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> Base Fuji is stronger than Base Akainu bro
> 
> At least he has great swordsmanship skills, did you forget how Akainu managed against WB before pulling off his magma?


He managed quite well.



Dont see your point.


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (Mar 27, 2016)

IMO Marco has been more impressive than Fuji


----------



## Captain Altintop (Mar 27, 2016)

Kizaru beats Marco with high ( high ) diff. 
Kizaru beats Fujitora with high ( very high ) diff.
Fujitora beats Marco with extreme diff.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 28, 2016)

He did nothing special in any case


----------



## Raiden34 (Mar 28, 2016)

Marco's flying fighting style could be a problem for someone stabile as Fujitora. Fujitora also relies on his CoO more than other Admirals does (coz you know he is blind) and I believe Marco's favorite Haki skill is CoO (dodged from Squardo at point blank), so in this match-up, I think he has an advantage, Marco is very agile for someone like Fujitora, granted Fujitora has deflected Doffy's sneak kick attack, and Sabo's fire imbued Haki kicks, but neither of them fast as Marco, I think Marco could give high-diffs fight to any Admiral, in this match-up he has an advantage and it could go either way.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 28, 2016)

Fuji has awesome reflexes though, so speed disadvantage is not such a trouble for him


----------



## GucciBandana (Mar 28, 2016)

Fujitora easily, Fujitora is 1 of the 2 Admirals who are capable of beating Marco low-mid diff with a right placed attack at the right time.
Marco hasn't even shown that he's capable of damaging somebody around Admiral level yet, unable to get past their defense even when raged.
and Marco's regen limit is nowhere near enough to compare to an all out Admiral's stamina.
Fujitora can drop a city on Marco's head then pin him down with gravity sword, Marco has no way to escape, eventually dies from crushing force when his regen runs out. birds usually don't like gravity.

I think after the Yonko arc Marco will be considered one of the weakest Yonko FM, or at least on the lower tier, while guys like Beckmann and Shilliew who are clear FM will be on the stronger tier, and no FM is beating an Admiral.


----------



## Kai (Mar 28, 2016)

GucciBandana said:


> I think after the Yonko arc Marco will be considered one of the weakest Yonko FM, or at least on the lower tier, while guys like Beckmann and Shilliew who are clear FM will be on the stronger tier, and no FM is beating an Admiral.


That's very doubtful. It was Marco's (and WB pirates) defeat that allowed the world to consider Teach to be the next Yonko. 

That would absolutely not be the case if Marco was the weakest FM, and it absolutely is not the case based on Gorosei's comments about Marco.


----------



## GucciBandana (Mar 28, 2016)

Kai said:


> That's very doubtful. It was Marco's (and WB pirates) defeat that allowed the world to consider Teach to be the next Yonko.
> 
> That would absolutely not be the case if Marco was the weakest FM, and it absolutely is not the case based on Gorosei's comments about Marco.



Teach beat Marco to be considered a Yonko because they both share the previous Yonko's terrorory, and Gorosei comment about Marco because he's a crew leader now after WB and Ace's death, with Jozu losing an arm, it has no relation with him being stronger or weaker than other FMs.
if other FMs lost their leaders and had to lead their crew, they would be put into the same convo easily.
after MF war, Marco was the 5th strongest *leader* in the *Yonko* session of the *3 great power*. which he clearly is, the 6th strongest we've seen to that point is like, hmmm Squardo(if Little Oars jr. is dead)?


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 28, 2016)

GucciBandana said:


> Teach beat Marco to be considered a Yonko because they both share the previous Yonko's terrorory, and Gorosei comment about Marco because he's a crew leader now after WB and Ace's death, with Jozu losing an arm, it has no relation with him being stronger or weaker than other FMs.
> if other FMs lost their leaders and had to lead their crew, they would be put into the same convo easily.
> after MF war, Marco was the 5th strongest *leader* in the *Yonko* session of the *3 great power*. which he clearly is, the 6th strongest we've seen to that point is like, hmmm Squardo(if Little Oars jr. is dead)?



We know nothing about Big Mom's FM, and it's kind of obvious that Teach's FM wasn't Marco's opponent. Maybe they had some moments in a war of all places, but "leader vs. leader" is Marco/Teach.

Marco is probably stronger than all of them with the possible exception of Benn Beckman. He's got more plot relevance than all of them bar Benn Beckman/Teach's FM, as well.


----------



## GucciBandana (Mar 28, 2016)

King Itachi said:


> We know nothing about Big Mom's FM, and it's kind of obvious that Teach's FM wasn't Marco's opponent. Maybe they had some moments in a war of all places, but "leader vs. leader" is Marco/Teach.
> 
> Marco is probably stronger than all of them with the possible exception of Benn Beckman. He's got more plot relevance than all of them bar Benn Beckman/Teach's FM, as well.



we don't know about BM's FM, that's why I say wait till after the Yonko arc.
Teach's FM wasn't Marco's opponent but Teach's crew overwhelmed/obliterated Marco's crew, which means the top fighters from Teach's crew each had a significant advantage over Marco's, and I'm not sure if Teach can overwhelm Shilliew but I'm pretty sure Marco can't overwhelm Jozu, even the 1 armed one.

I think Beckman and Shilliew > Marco, and the other 2 FM might be around Marco's tier, that's why I said around the lower tier of FMs.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 29, 2016)

GucciBandana said:


> we don't know about BM's FM, that's why I say wait till after the Yonko arc.
> Teach's FM wasn't Marco's opponent but Teach's crew overwhelmed/obliterated Marco's crew, which means the top fighters from Teach's crew each had a significant advantage over Marco's, and I'm not sure if Teach can overwhelm Shilliew but I'm pretty sure Marco can't overwhelm Jozu, even the 1 armed one.
> 
> I think Beckman and Shilliew > Marco, and the other 2 FM might be around Marco's tier, that's why I said around the lower tier of FMs.



IMO BM's crew sucks as shit but FM could potentially be the only decent member let's say on DD level


----------



## Dellinger (Mar 29, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Marco's flying fighting style could be a problem for someone stabile as Fujitora. Fujitora also relies on his CoO more than other Admirals does (coz you know he is blind) and I believe Marco's favorite Haki skill is CoO (dodged from Squardo at point blank), so in this match-up, I think he has an advantage, Marco is very agile for someone like Fujitora, granted Fujitora has deflected Doffy's sneak kick attack, and Sabo's fire imbued Haki kicks, but neither of them fast as Marco, I think Marco could give high-diffs fight to any Admiral, in this match-up he has an advantage and it could go either way.



Fujitora's CoO >>>> anyone in the series.


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 29, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Fujitora's CoO >>>> anyone in the series.



Considering he is blind as fuck he is Saint Seiya material


----------



## Vivo Diez (Mar 29, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Marco's flying fighting style could be a problem for someone stabile as Fujitora. Fujitora also relies on his CoO more than other Admirals does (coz you know he is blind) and I believe Marco's favorite Haki skill is CoO (dodged from Squardo at point blank), so in this match-up, I think he has an advantage, Marco is very agile for someone like Fujitora, granted Fujitora has deflected Doffy's sneak kick attack, and Sabo's fire imbued Haki kicks, but neither of them fast as Marco, I think Marco could give high-diffs fight to any Admiral, in this match-up he has an advantage and it could go either way.





White Hawk said:


> Fujitora's CoO >>>> anyone in the series.



Oda has been pretty bad at explaining CoO(all of haki pretty much), but there seems to be a two main applications of it and certain characters specialize in one or the other.

-Detecting life/aura, sensing someone's true character. For *Fujitora* this manifests by being able to see his close surroundings in great detail and detect noises. *Ussop* now has revealed he can do the same over long distances if he can see his target visually.

*Sanji* can sense the exact location of someone, over really long distances at times, even when he shouldn't be able to see it visually. He also seems to be able to sense if someone is in danger.*Enel* could cover all of Skypiea with this ability, enhanced by his DF. 

-Precognition(*Whitebeard, Luffy, Enel*).

Marco hasn't really shown any CoO so far, only CoA. Fujitora probably has the precognition part of CoO, but since Oda seems to ignore it nowadays, I don't know if that would be an inherent advantage over Marco.


----------



## Kaiser (Mar 29, 2016)

Marco was most likely using color of observation here

Either this or he has incredible detecting skills to be able to notice someone(Squardo) around Whitebeard's location coming from behind his actual position far away and mid battle

Though with the lack of haki explanation we had pretimeskip, you never know


----------



## DavyChan (Mar 29, 2016)

he was doing well against kizaru who is a good bit stronger than fuji 2 me.

id say marco very high diff


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 29, 2016)

DavyChan said:


> he was doing well against kizaru who is a good bit stronger than fuji 2 me.
> 
> id say marco very high diff



I would have loved to see the continuation of that fight


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 29, 2016)

I thought all high-caliber fighters were given the benefit of the doubt in being able to use the two main types of Haki: CoA and CoO? Is Marco the exception to that? 

Haki was still a vague concept back then, anyway.


----------



## Luke (Mar 30, 2016)

Fujitora wins, high difficulty.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Mar 31, 2016)

Josh said:


> Within the last 10 chapters. On my phone, so can't be bothered looking.


Viz says something completely different, remind me what chapter it is on and I'll get it (too lazy to look)


----------



## GucciBandana (Apr 1, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> IMO BM's crew sucks as shit but FM could potentially be the only decent member let's say on DD level



we know the least about BM's crew for now out of all Yonkos, we actually know none of their top members so far, maybe only that Bobbin guy seems like top member material, but he ain't no FM to me, the 3 eyes girl might be FM or Sanji's bride, or both.
Capone, Pekoms and that guy from long legged tribute seem like middle tier commanders to me, from what Capone was saying, Pekoms is pretty famous in the NW, but if he is among top commanders then BM's crew really does suck.
btw if Purrin is actually the bride, she might even come with Sanji to fight Kaido, Luffy must be able to get some kind of extra help from Big Mom/Vinsmoke for Kaido arc. also I don't see anybody talking about this, but look at the new chapter, the panel where Apoo calls Kaido, the panel with jail bars, looks like the guy laying down in the background could either be Kidd or Hawkins, if that's the case, Apoo betrayed the alliance, setting up Kidd and Hawkins to help Luffy for this Kaido fight as well, since Kaido just recruited himself a SN, Luffy gonna need extra help also.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Apr 1, 2016)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Viz says something completely different, remind me what chapter it is on and I'll get it (too lazy to look)



found it


----------



## savior2005 (Apr 1, 2016)

fujitora wins


----------

