# Dumbledore (Prime) vs. Voldemort



## Paranoid Android (Nov 9, 2010)

For all the harry potter people out there. Dumbledore, at his best, with no limitations, and Voldemort with no Horcruxes, no restrictions. who wins?


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## Dante Alighieri (Nov 9, 2010)

Dumbledore eventually destroys him. He basically beat Riddle in their duel in the Atrium, and with no CIS holding him back along with the Elder Wand to boot, he would end up annihilating Voldemort. Remember, Dumbledore was the only one Voldemort ever feared, and for good reason. The main reason Dumbledore couldn't finish him IMO was his Horcruxes and CIS: Dumbledore knows lots more magic than he lets himself use.


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## Kαrin (Nov 9, 2010)

Dante Alighieri said:


> Dumbledore eventually destroys him. He basically beat Riddle in their duel in the Atrium, and with no CIS holding him back along with the Elder Wand to boot, he would end up annihilating Voldemort. Remember, Dumbledore was the only one Voldemort ever feared, and for good reason. The main reason Dumbledore couldn't finish him IMO was his Horcruxes and CIS: Dumbledore knows lots more magic than he lets himself use.



This. Dumbledore owns Voldemort.


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## noobthemusical (Nov 9, 2010)

Dumbledore, would straight up  rape.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Nov 9, 2010)

Dante Alighieri said:


> Dumbledore eventually destroys him. He basically beat Riddle in their duel in the Atrium, and with no CIS holding him back along with the Elder Wand to boot, he would end up annihilating Voldemort. Remember, Dumbledore was the only one Voldemort ever feared, and for good reason. The main reason Dumbledore couldn't finish him IMO was his Horcruxes and CIS: Dumbledore knows lots more magic than he lets himself use.



thread ender


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## Deleted member 45015 (Nov 9, 2010)

Dumbledore could've bested Voldy as an old man...he just knew there was no point because of the Horcruxes. In their duel, sure, Voldy was able to go toe-to-toe with an Elder Wand-toting Dumbledore, _but he did retreat_ and never ever _attempted _to attack Hogwarts whilst Dumbledore was alive.

CIS holding him back? Perhaps. Dumbledore orchestrated things so Harry could wipe out the Horcruxes and then fulfil the prophecy. Without the Horcruxes, what would there be to stop him kicking Voldy's ass between his ears?


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## Level7N00b (Nov 9, 2010)

Prime Dumbledore would win. His age was a huge facvtoer in why he had such troubles againt Voldemort at the Battle of the Ministry


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 9, 2010)

"I knew that *Voldemort's knowledge of magic is perhaps more extensive than any wizard alive.* I knew that even my most complex and powerful protective spells and charms were unlikely to be invincible if he ever returned to full power." Dumbledore, Order of the Phoenix

So there's Al himself saying Voldemort may even know more magic than him. 

As for their fight in Order of the Phoenix, Dumbledore was definitely winning.




Level7N00b said:


> Prime Dumbledore would win. His age was a huge facvtoer in why he had such troubles againt Voldemort at the Battle of the Ministry



I disagree with that. I don't even know how you came to that conclusion honestly.

Also it should be noted Dumbledore would have died had it not been for Fawkes taking one of the Killing Curses.


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## paulatreides0 (Nov 9, 2010)

Magical Knowledge=/=Magical Power

And is Anti seriously implying that being an old man wouldn't affect your fighting ability and you'd be able to fight at a level comparable to you at your prime?


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## Hand of Judgement (Nov 9, 2010)

Dumbledores quote also points out that even his most powerful protections will not be able to protect him at max with Voldemort at full strength.

Also does age actually impair magic use? it makes logical sense to me that an older dumbledore may know more magic/have more knowledge than a younger one. Also define "prime", magical prime, prime of his life? e.g. physical age etc....

That said, the Elder wand gives Dumbledore the win anyway.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 9, 2010)

> And is Anti seriously implying that being an old man wouldn't affect your fighting ability and you'd be able to fight at a level comparable to you at your prime?



Well maybe if Dumbledore was fighting in hand-to-hand combat it would matter.
Somehow I don't think age play sa huge part in the ability to teleport or wave a wand to bring statues to life.

But, please. Do enlighten me on how  Dumbledore's age played a significant role in him having a hard time battling Voldemort?

More quotes from Dumbledore:
(on Grindelwald)
"I knew that we were evenly matched, perhaps that I was a shade more skillful."

So, Dumbledore in the 1940s, when he was about 60 or so and probably as close to his peak as possible (given he'd have had time to learn lots of extra magic but wasn't being hampered by age as much) was only a bit better than Grindelwald.

Dumbledore himself acknowledges Voldemort as "the most dangerous Dark wizard of all time".

So Voldemort > the guy Dumbledore said he was only a small bit better than. He also has potentially greater knowledge than Dumbledore.

So, yeah. Dumbledore, at his peak or not, is not beating Voldemort easily. He loses a few times out of ten even.


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## noobthemusical (Nov 9, 2010)

Yeah but the guy had the Elder wand.

You don't know if Dumbledore was counting that into the equation when he said that.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 9, 2010)

Hand of Judgement said:


> Also does age actually impair magic use?



I don't think it would, but you have to be quick on your feet to cast spells in duels with other Wizards


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 9, 2010)

Hand of Judgement said:


> Also does age actually impair magic use? it makes logical sense to me that an older dumbledore may know more magic/have more knowledge than a younger one. Also define "prime", magical prime, prime of his life? e.g. physical age etc....



That's what's confusing me too. An older Dumbledore should have more knowledge and be a better wizard than his younger self even if that younger self is a bit faster.

Also there is this small exchange in Half-Blood Prince.

Amycus: What's happened to you then Dumby?
Dumbledore: Oh, weaker resistance, slower reflexes Amycus. Old age in short.

He is of course actually weakened because he had to drink Voldemort's potion to get the (fake) Locket but that quote is better than nothing on describing old age's effects on wizards.

But yeah, magical prime vs. physical prime matters a lot here. Dumbledore being able to move somewhat faster might not mean much if he doesn't have the magical knowledge to actually win.



noobthemusical said:


> Yeah but the guy had the Elder wand.
> 
> You don't know if Dumbledore was counting that into the equation when he said that.



That's true. But wouldn't it be a feather in Voldemort's wizard hat if Dumbledore considers him more dangerous without the Elder Wand than another great dark wizard who actually had it?

Dumbledore, Voldemort and Grindelwald are all in a league of their own when it comes to HP wizards anyway.


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## Hand of Judgement (Nov 9, 2010)

I dont think being able to move physically faster is going to make any difference in this duel.  I think knowing the right curses/counters is by far more important.  I think Dumbledore may win the majority but not easily. Also taking into account Dumbledores quotes, Voldemort may be more powerful, he just does not have the Elder wand.


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## Narcissus (Nov 9, 2010)

Dumbledore wins. He was matching Voldemort in the Ministry of Magic without the intent of killing him, and simultaneously worrying about Harry. Voldemort outright says Dumbledore isn't using lethal force at the start of their duel.

Having a killing intent and being in a better bodily condition would allow Dumbledore to win, though he'd still be given a hard fight.


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## Wesker (Nov 9, 2010)

Yeah but didn't Dumbledore have the Elder Wand in that duel?


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## Narcissus (Nov 9, 2010)

Wesker said:


> Yeah but didn't Dumbledore have the Elder Wand in that duel?



Yes. And?**


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## Wesker (Nov 9, 2010)

Well are we arguing Dumbledore prime with the Elder Wand or without the Elder Wand?


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## Narcissus (Nov 9, 2010)

I'd assume he has the Elder Wand, since we pretty much only ever saw him with that.


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## Hand of Judgement (Nov 9, 2010)

I think thats an unfair advantage, he should be given another wand thats equel to Voldemorts, not far greater like the Elder wand.  Otherwise its not just magical knowledge/skill that is taken into account, its Dumbledores wand advantage.


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## Narcissus (Nov 9, 2010)

Except all we have to go on is Dumbledore using the Elder Wand. So giving him a regular wand isn't something we can just do. Besides, it's not like having the Elder Wand makes him unbeatable, considering that he defeated Grindewald with a normal wand.


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## mali (Nov 9, 2010)

This thread shoud have ended with the first post


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## Hand of Judgement (Nov 9, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> Except all we have to go on is Dumbledore using the Elder Wand. So giving him a regular wand doesn't isn't something we can just do. Besides, it's not like having the Elder Wand make him unbeatable, considering that he defeated Grindewald with a normal wand.



You contradicted yourself in this post....


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## Dante Alighieri (Nov 9, 2010)

Gaelek_13 said:


> CIS holding him back? Perhaps. Dumbledore orchestrated things so Harry could wipe out the Horcruxes and then fulfil the prophecy. Without the Horcruxes, what would there be to stop him kicking Voldy's ass between his ears?



I also mentioned the Horcruces. The CIS holding him back, although you could more fairly call it a difference in morals and philosophy, is that Dumbledore refuses to use lethal and Dark magic. As McGonagall said in _Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone,

_


> "You flatter me," said Dumbledore calmly. "Voldemort had powers I will never have."
> 
> "Only because you're too - well - _noble_ to use them."


The powers Dumbledore referred to were likely Voldemort's various Dark rituals, such as the Horcruces, the resurrection ritual, and other likely Dark Arts. Dumbledore is doubtlessly familiar with most of them, but choose not to use them. However, none of these Dark rituals are relevant in a straight-up duel, Horcruces assumed to be a non-factor.

Dumbledore straight up beat Voldemort in their duel at the Atrium, while protecting Harry at the same time. Voldemort had to use lethal spells and pull out some very powerful Dark magic like Fiendfyre, and he still ended up losing.

Without limitations, Dumbledore would win. I don't doubt it would be a hard battle, but I think he takes it every time.


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## Narcissus (Nov 9, 2010)

Hand of Judgement said:


> You contradicted yourself in this post....





We didn't see that fight, so try again.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 9, 2010)

Dante Alighieri said:


> Dumbledore straight up beat Voldemort in their duel at the Atrium, while protecting Harry at the same time. Voldemort had to use lethal spells and pull out some very powerful Dark magic like Fiendfyre, and he still ended up losing.



Uh...Fiendfyre? When did that happen in their duel?

Also as I pointed out earlier, Dumbledore had to actually be saved by his bird.


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## BenTennyson (Nov 9, 2010)

^From what I remember, Harry had to warn Dumbledore of an incoming spell as well.


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## Narcissus (Nov 9, 2010)

Yeah, and Dumbledore was  not fighting to kill, and was worried about Harry. So it's not exactly as if he was fighting full force.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Nov 9, 2010)

Dumbledore Prime buffs himself up with the Avada Kedavra and kills Voldy to death.


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## Hand of Judgement (Nov 9, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> We didn't see that fight, so try again.




I dont understand, try what again? you still contradicted yourself even if we did not see the fight....


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## Narcissus (Nov 9, 2010)

Hand of Judgement said:


> I dont understand, try what again? you still contradicted yourself even if we did not see the fight....



No I didn't. I said all we had to go on was him using the Elder Wand. He obviously was considered a great wizard with a normal wand, but we pretty much never see him without it.

So I am right.


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## Hand of Judgement (Nov 9, 2010)

You propose that we can only go on him using the EW then go on to say he used another normal wand to beat Grindalwald, so clearly we have "something" to go on. Just not as much as we do with the Elder Wand.


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## Narcissus (Nov 9, 2010)

Hand of Judgement said:


> You propose that we can only go on him using the EW then go on to say he used another normal wand to beat Grindalwald, so clearly we have "something" to go on. Just not as much as we do with the Elder Wand.





We don't have anything else to go on. We didn't see the fight, so we don't know how different Dumbledore is without the Elder Wand. I only brought up Grindelwald to point out that giving dumbledore the Elder Wand does not make him unbeatable.

But we can't use that battle as a reference because we don't know what happened.


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## Hand of Judgement (Nov 9, 2010)

We know he won, thats something to go on. Its also fairly impressive.  Also thats hardly evidence, we know Grindalwald with the EW was not unbeatable. Considering Dumbledore>EW Grindal, then EW Dumbledore is an entirely different matter.


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## Narcissus (Nov 9, 2010)

Hand of Judgement said:


> We know he won, thats something to go on.



For OBD purposes, no it isn't. We don't know how he won or what Grindewald can do.


> Its also fairly impressive.  Also thats hardly evidence, we know Grindalwald with the EW was not unbeatable. Considering Dumbledore>EW Grindal, then EW Dumbledore is an entirely different matter.



Yeah, it's impressive in the context of the story. But without knowing how he managed it with a normal wand, it can't be used here. All we have to go with is what we actually saw him do, and that was with the Elder Wand.


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