# Why is Itachi high Kage?



## kingjr9000 (Jul 7, 2019)

So I've seen a fair amount of tier lists with Itachi being high Kage in most of them, and I'm wondering what makes him "high Kage".  Is it tsukuyomi?  Is it his intelligence combined with his Genjutsu skill? Or is it Totsuka? 

Also, since knowing that Sasuke is Naruto's shadow Hokage, would that make Itachi, Hiruzen's shadow Hokage since he was working in the shadows like Sasuke is and he is also Kage level?


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## Android (Jul 7, 2019)

He's high Kage because he trashed Orochimaru twice, easily. He hospitalized Kakashi with just a fraction of his power, he casually fodderized Deidara. Soloed IA Naruto (Kakashi's equal) with a clone. He was stated to be able to easily defeat Hebi Sasuke. He outperformed early EMS Sasuke. And his MS abilities are all top tier.

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## Topace (Jul 7, 2019)

Because he has a lot of hax justu. Only thing stopping him is the fact that he’s on his death bed 5 mins into any given fight.


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## Kisame (Jul 7, 2019)

Orochimaru is strong enough that the strongest level of Jonin wouldn't dare face him, Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru even in a weakened state.

The DB implies MS Sasuke's dojutsu and ninjutsu are below Itachi's.

Itachi was as smart as a Hokage at 7 years old.

Itachi is implied to be above Killer Bee.

Etc

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## Shazam (Jul 7, 2019)

He is high kage because of his genjutsu prowess, mostly. After that its because of his Susanoo and Amaterasu abilities which take some combination of intel, speed, LoS blockers, sensing or staying out of range to deal with. Futhermore he has the ability to bypass regen with Totuska Blade. And last but not least he was portrayed as Jiraiya's equal who is also High Kage (due to many things most of which is about the passing on of SM,MS to the main and co-main characters).

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## Mad Scientist (Jul 7, 2019)

His intellect means he's usually ahead of most characters even able to tackle genius intellects like that of Kabuto Yakushi.
His genjutsu is hard to counter for most characters. EMS Madara was able to subdue even the Raikage using genjutsu (though A was fatigued and distracted) - and I can't think of a single character with better portrayal of genjutsu than Itachi.
Subdued Orochimaru and Deidara easily.
His CQC skills are on par (or better imo) than KCM Naruto's.
He's contrasted with Kakashi Hatake of the Sharingan, who is a beast in his own right.
He recognises Might Gai's skill when many characters (and NBD posters dismiss Gai).
He can subdue nearly anyone with Tsukuyomi by putting them under mental torture in a matter of seconds.
His Amaterasu is hax for most characters.
He has an "ultimate shield" Susanoo with Yata Mirror and Totsuka blade.
He has Izanami.
Obito Uchiha understood Itachi's strength.
Has top-tier Databook portrayal and has multiple maxed out stats.
He bore the weight of protecting The Leaf from the shadows.

*Spoiler*: _DB_ 








What lets him down is his stamina, sickness, and eye sight.

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## Kai (Jul 7, 2019)

A) Above one of the legendary Sannin
B) Slaughtered Uchiha clan with Tobi’s help
C) Hokage wisdom at seven years old
D) As Edo led Naruto and B to defeat Edo Nagato
E) As Edo ended the Edo Tensei jutsu.

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## Kagutsutchi (Jul 7, 2019)

Any uchiha with access to MS is high kage because of their insane abilities. Itachi may seem weird with his sickness and all, but he's good enough to destroy many ninjas before they become an issue.


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2019)

he isn't. Kishi confirmed that itachi is jonin-level.


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## Kagutsutchi (Jul 7, 2019)

Hussain said:


> he isn't. Kishi confirmed that itachi is jonin-level.


When?


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2019)

Kamalu said:


> When?



They then go on to talking about Part II/ Shippuden.

On Shippuden’s/ Part II’s plot - Kobayashi starts off asking about whether there was framework put in place for the direction of Shippuden’s story. Kishimoto replies that because Naruto and his group were so weak as genin in the first part, so he wanted to make them stronger in the second part. This is especially because he introduced the Akatsiki, who are all Jonin level, so he had to make the main cast stronger too. He also used the timeskip as a chance to change their clothes, since he didn’t like the swirl on the arm of Naruto’s jacket, and also his thick collar in Part 1 got in the way of his face in action scenes. So he drew a small collar and dropped the swirl. He also added the headband with the long tails at the back so they would stand out and flutter during action scenes.


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 7, 2019)

Hussain said:


> he isn't. Kishi confirmed that itachi is jonin-level.


In the NBD, we often rank characters into tiers. That's what this thread is based on. Naruto was technically classed as a "genin" even during the Pain Arc, doesn't mean he _was_ considered a genin-level, and it doesn't mean readers/viewers can't rate him higher in their own tier lists.

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## kingjr9000 (Jul 7, 2019)

Isn't that a retcon though?  I remember reading somewhere  where it was mentioned that the akatsuki were a group of ninja who could each kill 20 jonin though.


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 7, 2019)

Kamalu said:


> Any uchiha with access to MS is high kage because of their insane abilities. Itachi may seem weird with his sickness and all, but he's good enough to destroy many ninjas before they become an issue.


Well, Kakashi had (an imperfected) MS during his fight with Deidara but I wouldn't class an in-character Kakashi at that level at high kage.


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## Kagutsutchi (Jul 7, 2019)

Hussain said:


> he introduced the Akatsiki, who are all Jonin level


Okay. But I think they confused rank with ability level. Pain is jonin level?

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## Kagutsutchi (Jul 7, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Well, Kakashi had (an imperfected) MS during his fight with Deidara but I wouldn't class an in-character Kakashi at that level at high kage.


I guess I should have said _easy access _to MS abilities.


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## Kagutsutchi (Jul 7, 2019)

Kai said:


> C) Hokage wisdom at seven years old


That doesn't mean anything.


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## Maverick04 (Jul 7, 2019)

Tier lists are fan made. Considering the intensity with which Kishimoto sucked off Itachi throughout the series, there is a solid chance that we are all downplaying his actual placement (in some hypothetical tier list in Kishimoto's head). As for myself my tier lists are different. I don't have him in High Kage. My high kage tier consists of characters like Tsunade, 7th Gate Gai, 4th Raikage, Onoki, Orochimaru, Danzo (w/o Koto), Gaara etc. Itachi is a cut above them in a tier I call the Kage+ tier along with SM Naruto, Pain, Minato, Killer Bee etc

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## Kai (Jul 7, 2019)

Kamalu said:


> That doesn't mean anything.


It means something to do with intelligence which is asked in OP.

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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2019)

Kai said:


> It means something to do with intelligence which is asked in OP.


there is no such thing as "Hokage level in intel"
what that means is he simply he saw the whole forest, rather than the tree. I.E he wanted to "protect" Konoha as a whole rather than siding with his clan.


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## Bonly (Jul 7, 2019)

Because he was constantly treated great throughout the manga for the most part, he has a great skillset in all three of the ninja arts, he's smart and wise for the most part, has hax jutsu which allows him to fight on par with and could beat pretty much most characters that isn't top tier and he's just well rounded in general. His downfall is his stamina and the limit to how many times he can use his MS jutsu before he goes blind so he can't fight at that high of a lvl for too long depending on how he goes about a fight

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## Kai (Jul 7, 2019)

Hussain said:


> there is no such thing as "Hokage level in intel"
> what that means is he simply he saw the whole forest, rather than the tree. I.E he wanted to "protect" Konoha as a whole rather than siding with his clan.


This translates to Itachi’s keen observation in fights as explained by Kabuto.

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## Shazam (Jul 7, 2019)

Maverick04 said:


> Tier lists are fan made. Considering the intensity with which Kishimoto sucked off Itachi throughout the series, there is a solid chance that we are all downplaying his actual placement (in some hypothetical tier list in Kishimoto's head).



Interesting considering Kishimoto publicly stated that his second favorite character under Naruto of course was Jiraiya (i.e not Itachi) during an interview in either 2014 or 2016 at the New York con. Maybe we are downplaying him even more so?


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2019)

Kai said:


> This translates to Itachi’s keen observation in fights as explained by Kabuto.


no, it does not. if you want to bring Kabuto's statement to prove that, then, by all means, go ahead.
But to say Hiruzen's statement shows this, is being dishonest because it sure as hell does not.


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## Maverick04 (Jul 7, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Maybe we are downplaying him even more so?


Maybe we are.


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## t0xeus (Jul 7, 2019)

He wins against most high kages in fair conditions - that alone puts him up there.

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## Quipchaque (Jul 7, 2019)

It's ok @Hussain . We believe you.


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> It's ok @Hussain . We believe you.


I don't ask you to believe me, but to believe Kishi...


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## Quipchaque (Jul 7, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I don't ask you to believe me, but to believe Kishi...


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## Kagutsutchi (Jul 7, 2019)

Kai said:


> It means something to do with intelligence which is asked in OP.


Since when were kages known for intelligence?

Hashirama sharing the bijuus was stupid as well as him clinging to the notion madara could change

Tobirama's segregation of the uchiha led to madara leaving and the uchiha planning a coup which resulted in their massacre

Hiruzen did nothing to alleviate matters with the uchiha, he let his love for orochimaru cloud his judgement and he did nothing to make sure Naruto(the most valuable asset in the village that could be like gaara) had a proper and loving upbringing. Ditto with sasuke after the massacre.

Minato had obito tell him everything.

Tsunade is a drunken gambler

Danzo was a nazi

Kakashi focused on sasuke the most out of team seven in part 1, then Naruto in 2, completely neglecting sakura and sai.

Naruto can create 5000 clones yet can't spend time with his family in person. 

Let's not get into other villages.

But I guess he is kage level in wisdom. Killing your entire clan and irreparably traumatizing your little brother over and over in one omega retarded plan is something a kage would do right?ck


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2019)

Kamalu said:


> But I guess he is kage level in wisdom. Killing your entire clan and irreparably traumatizing your little brother over and over in one omega retarded plan is something a kage would do right?ck


Gotta make him kill his best friend (Naruto, the one who has Kurama) to get the MS
and then return as a hero to the village! Genius! 


Also, don't speak about Minato again...

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## AxelKross (Jul 7, 2019)

Cus he solos ur fave


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## Shazam (Jul 7, 2019)

DeathTheKid said:


> Cus he solos ur fave



My fav is BM Minato tho… ?


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## Symmetry (Jul 7, 2019)

Because he’s stronger then Orochimaru, another high kage

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## Soul (Jul 7, 2019)

Because of his skill, haxx techniques and mastery of Genjutsu. He can casually defeat Jounin level opponents without using MS, too.


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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2019)

Soul said:


> Because of his skill, haxx techniques and mastery of Genjutsu. He can casually defeat Jounin level opponents without using MS, too.


he needed MS to defeat Kakashi...


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## Hina uzumaki (Jul 7, 2019)

Kai said:


> A) Above one of the legendary Sannin


Which one of the sannin is stronger than itachi

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## Soul (Jul 7, 2019)

Hussain said:


> he needed MS to defeat Kakashi...



Not to defeat Kurenai, who is a Jounin.
Or would you argue otherwise?

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## Trojan (Jul 7, 2019)

Soul said:


> Not to defeat Kurenai, who is a Jounin.
> Or would you argue otherwise?


She didn't really "defeat" her tho. She broke the Genjutsu, dodged his attempt to chop her head off, and defended against his kick. 

Although I suppose we can agree that if the fight were to continue she would have lost eventually.  
either way, I was considering Jonin on a higher level like Kakashi, Gai, Hiashi...etc

not irrelevant ones like Kurunai or some other nameless fodders...


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 8, 2019)

Shark said:


> Orochimaru is strong enough that the strongest level of Jonin wouldn't dare face him, Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru even in a weakened state.
> *
> The DB implies MS Sasuke's dojutsu and ninjutsu are below Itachi's*.
> 
> ...




MS Sasuke's dojutsu isn't even featured until after the manga is OVER, and it doesn't even have stats. The last databook to feature stats prior to Boruto's trash rendition. Was Databook 3, which took place following the Itachi fight. Long story short it only covers Hebi Sasuke, and they both had 5's in ninjutsu.


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## Soul (Jul 8, 2019)

Hussain said:


> She didn't really "defeat" her tho. She broke the Genjutsu, dodged his attempt to chop her head off, and defended against his kick.
> 
> Although I suppose we can agree that if the fight were to continue she would have lost eventually.



Yeah, that's what I was going for.



> either way, I was considering Jonin on a higher level like Kakashi, Gai, Hiashi...etc
> 
> not irrelevant ones like Kurunai or some other nameless fodders...



Not sure how Hiashi is that much stronger than Kurenai or on  par with Kakashi orr Gai, which he could also defeat with some ease depending on the form (Pre Pain Arc Kakashi, for example).


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jul 8, 2019)

-Defeating Orochimaru twice without getting touched

-Defeating IA Naruto with a clone

-Negging Deidara

-Beat Hebi Sasuke while holding back and having a bigger handicap than Sasuke (terminal illness)

-Sasuke did not surpass him according to the DB in Ninjutsu and Doujutsu until the EMS

-His Edo self led a team of KCM Naruto and Killer Bee and later EMS Sasuke 

-The worst thing you can really say about him featwise is that SM Kabuto can potentially crush him, but the same can potentially be said of early EMS Sasuke if you go that route.

-The lowest you can scale him by plot is => Jiraiya or comparable to MS Sasuke, but if you interpret Jiraiya that way you have to also consider Jiraiya a threat to other high end people.

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## Mad Scientist (Jul 8, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> -Defeating Orochimaru twice without getting touched
> 
> -Defeating IA Naruto with a clone
> 
> ...


Yeah, Itachi could have finished Sasuke off at nearly any point. He planned out the entire fight, even accounting for contingencies.

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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 8, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> -Defeating Orochimaru twice without getting touched
> 
> -Defeating IA Naruto with a clone
> 
> ...



Why do Itachi fans have to bring up Sasuke's name to hype him?

Technically Itachi did not beat Hebi Sasuke. The manga literally stated that Itachi's role in that was two fold. One of those folds were to die by Sasuke's hands.

Secondly the databook 4. Only states two things. That Sasuke surpassed Itachi with the EMS. It doesn't go into detail. It also mentions something a long the lines of finally being able fight by his brothers side as an equal; in reference to the Kabuto battle. Seeing as the databook takes place after manga ended. There's obviously no reason to compare them with their MS.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 8, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Yeah, Itachi could have finished Sasuke off at nearly any point. He planned out the entire fight, even accounting for contingencies.


Yeah where does the manga ever state that.
The only thing that Obito states is that Sasuke would be dead if Itachi was serious. I also remember something along the lines of Sasuke playing his role, and Itachi needing to push Sasuke hard enough to drive out Oro. But nothing a long the lines of planning the entire fight.


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## Kagutsutchi (Jul 8, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Yeah, Itachi could have finished Sasuke off at nearly any point. He planned out the entire fight, even accounting for contingencies.


did he plan for sasuke breaking out of tskuyomi?


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 8, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yeah where does the manga ever state that.
> The only thing that Obito states is that Sasuke would be dead if Itachi was serious. I also remember something along the lines of Sasuke playing his role, and Itachi needing to push Sasuke hard enough to drive out Oro. But nothing a long the lines of planning the entire fight.


Read after that page. Chapter 401, there you go. 



Kamalu said:


> did he plan for sasuke breaking out of tskuyomi?


Based on statements and portrayal, that's an obvious yes.

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## Kagutsutchi (Jul 8, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Read after that page. Chapter 401, there you go.
> 
> 
> Based on statements and portrayal, that's an obvious yes.


but third databook:


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 8, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Read after that page. Chapter 401, there you go.


Yeah I'm pretty sure on my knowledge of manga. Considering the things I address come from various points of that very chapter and beyond.
I'm quite confident I know any and all details regarding that fight.




> Based on statements and portrayal, that's an obvious yes.


The only statement that alludes to one being able to break Tsukuyomi is, "Only a Sharingan user with the same blood as me can defeat me."
And not only is that word for word verbatim. It doesn't even necessarily apply to Tsukuyomi. Either way Sasuke does fit the criteria of both a Sharingan user, and being of the same blood as Itachi. Portrayal you say? It only work until it didn't. You can count the number of times Tsukuyomi has been used in all mediums on one hand. So you are hardly working with much when cite portrayal to begin with.


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 8, 2019)

Kamalu said:


> but third databook:


Um can you elaborate?



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yeah I'm pretty sure on my knowledge of manga. Considering the things I address come from various points of that very chapter and beyond.
> I'm quite confident I know any and all details regarding that fight.


Don't boast your knowledge when you asked me when did it state Itachi planned the battle. I gave you the chapter reference, now you do your part. 



IpHr0z3nI said:


> The only statement that alludes to one being able to break Tsukuyomi is, "Only a Sharingan user with the same blood as me can defeat me."
> And not only is that word for word verbatim. It doesn't even necessarily apply to Tsukuyomi. Either way Sasuke does fit the criteria of both a Sharingan user, and being of the same blood as Itachi. Portrayal you say? It only work until it didn't. You can count the number of times Tsukuyomi has been used in all mediums on one hand. So you are hardly working with much when cite portrayal to begin with.


All that is useless when you consider Itachi is much stronger than Hebi Sasuke and would have ended him if he was serious.

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## Sufex (Jul 8, 2019)



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## kingjr9000 (Jul 8, 2019)

Sufex said:


>


How the heck does someone get in the blind spots of a rinnegan?  Isn't that supposed to be one of the most impossible things?  Like trying to hide from a byakugan while being in front of it?

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## Quipchaque (Jul 8, 2019)

kingjr9000 said:


> How the heck does someone get in the blind spots of a rinnegan?  Isn't that supposed to be one of the most impossible things?  Like trying to hide from a byakugan while being in front of it?



That is why a lot of people underrate Itachi and why I keep saying his skill is one of his greatest assets. He makes the impossible possible.

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## Sufex (Jul 8, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That is why a lot of people underrate Itachi and why I keep saying his skill is one of his greatest assets. He makes the impossible possible.


 
"Do almost anything"

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## Quipchaque (Jul 8, 2019)

Sufex said:


> "Do almost anything"



Exactly.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 8, 2019)

Sufex said:


>


Although I only skimmed through it, as I have to get ready to go to work soon, I'm going to give
it a proper reading later. But I'm not going for any detail regarding his power necessarily. I'm very aware of his feats. I'm going to looking for if can successfully incorporate the power and portrayal of actual character with overall understanding of that character.

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## Mad Scientist (Jul 8, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Don't tell me to do something in order to validate your argument when I know that something doesn't exist.


Did Itachi plan the entire battle and account for contingencies - yes or no?

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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 8, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Did Itachi plan the entire battle and account for contingencies - yes or no?


Question? yes or no. Can you provide a link to the scan that that even allows what you are alluding to be even be responsible. I think you are overlooking the words that was listed before and after set statement was made. As things didn't exactly go as Itachi planned they almost never do in regards to Itachi and Sasuke.

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## Mad Scientist (Jul 8, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Question? yes or no. Can you provide a link to the scan that that even allows what you are alluding to be even be responsible. I think you are overlooking the words that was listed before and after set statement was made. As things didn't exactly go as Itachi planned they almost never do in regards to Itachi and Sasuke.


I've asked you a very simple question.

Did Itachi plan the entire battle, with contingency plans? Yes. Or. No.


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## AxelKross (Jul 8, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I've asked you a very simple question.
> 
> Did Itachi plan the entire battle, with contingency plans? Yes. Or. No.


yes he did. He was so far ahead he implanted an amaterasu in his own eyes for when sasuke uses them.

such a genius, only rivalled by kakashi in that regard

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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 8, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I've asked you a very simple question.
> 
> Did Itachi plan the entire battle, with contingency plans? Yes. Or. No.


And I ask you that very question. Do you believe he did? Because I'm willing to tell you advance none of Itachi's "contingencies" played out as planned.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jul 8, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Why do Itachi fans have to bring up Sasuke's name to hype him?
> 
> Technically Itachi did not beat Hebi Sasuke. The manga literally stated that Itachi's role in that was two fold. One of those folds were to die by Sasuke's hands.
> 
> Secondly the databook 4. Only states two things. That Sasuke surpassed Itachi with the EMS. It doesn't go into detail. It also mentions something a long the lines of finally being able fight by his brothers side as an equal; in reference to the Kabuto battle. Seeing as the databook takes place after manga ended. There's obviously no reason to compare them with their MS.


IDK. Ask an Itachi fan.


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 8, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> And I ask you that very question. Do you believe he did? Because I'm willing to tell you advance none of Itachi's "contingencies" played out as planned.


I'm not asking whether or not it went as planned. I'm asking whether or not Itachi had, *prior to the battle, planned it all*, including accounting for contingencies. 

Is it true that Itachi had planned the entire fight and included back up plans?

Yes

Or

No

?

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## Quipchaque (Jul 8, 2019)

@Hussain

Go ahead and try convince everyone here that Itachi is jonin level. I love how you deliberately dodged the question about pain one user brought up just because you have no answer other than "Muh author." btw even no-sharingan Kakashi was rated as kage level at the end of the story.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> @Hussain
> 
> Go ahead and try convince everyone here that Itachi is jonin level. I love how you deliberately dodged the question about pain one user brought up just because you have no answer other than "Muh author." btw even no-sharingan Kakashi was rated as kage level at the end of the story.


why do you mention me to post anything when you are a snowflake that will get butthurt over anything I write anyway? 

and I don't have to convince anyone. I said Kishi said itachi is a jonin-level, someone asked for the source, and I gave it to him. 


don't hate the player, hate the game...


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## Quipchaque (Jul 8, 2019)

Hussain said:


> why do you mention me to post anything when you are a snowflake that will get butthurt over anything I write anyway?
> 
> and I don't have to convince anyone. I said Kishi said itachi is a jonin-level, someone asked for the source, and I gave it to him.
> 
> ...




Because I want some more of your laughable crack statements. And you are making a big fool out of yourself which is very enjoyable to watch.

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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Because I want some more of your laughable crack statements. And you are making a big fool out of yourself which is very enjoyable to watch.


my post was simply delivering a message by the author. whether you think it's believable or not it's up to you.
The fact remains that the statement does, in fact, exist whether you like it or not...


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jul 8, 2019)

Hussain said:


> my post was simply delivering a message by the author. whether you think it's believable or not it's up to you.
> The fact remains that the statement does, in fact, exist whether you like it or not...



The fact remains that the statement isn't canonical, regardless of its existence, whether you like it or not....


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## t0xeus (Jul 8, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> btw even no-sharingan Kakashi was rated as kage level at the end of the story.


You don't actually believe that to be the case though, do you? Just because Kishimoto says so.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> The fact remains that the statement isn't canonical, regardless of its existence, whether you like it or not....


sure.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Jul 8, 2019)

Hussain said:


> sure.



sure.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 8, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I'm not asking whether or not it went as planned. I'm asking whether or not Itachi had, *prior to the battle, planned it all*, including accounting for contingencies.


And I'm asking you essentially the same question, but a broader scale. Come, come now. You cannot discuss that battle without touching upon the cause. Itachi planned that fight no more than he planned to, "take care of Sasuke" as his dad initially wished prior Itachi murdering him. And let me ask you this. Did everything go as Itachi initially planned? If so, than answer this. How did he know what role Naruto would play, which I think we can agree was essential to, "taking care of Sasuke" which continued long after Itachi's death.(Both of them) And if he knew that, that very Naruto was essential. Why oh why did Itachi tell Sasuke to kill him? I think you know where I'm going here. Itachi's "contigencies" either imply that he is omniscient. Or that he didn't know WHAT THE FUCK HE WAS DOING!!!! And considering that essentially spent the rest of his life, and then some. Trying fix a problem he played a pivotal role in starting, and then at the end admitted to be a complete failure. Why would think he is Omniscient? What makes you believe Obito's words. When most what Obito cited either didn't happen exactly how Itachi envisioned. Or wouldn't have happened if Sasuke never met or got the chance to speak to Obito, and learn the truth. Which is the very thing Itachi was trying to prevent when he implanted Amaterasu into Sasuke's eyes upon the end of their battle.



> Is it true that Itachi had planned the entire fight and included back up plans?


It's virtually impossible. If you try to take into account everything that Obito cited. Obito cited something along the lines of, "by witnessing his death he'd awakened the MS." But the MS only awakened after knowing the truth in regards to Itachi. Which we know by both his decision implant the Amaterasu trap into Sasuke to kill Obito. 
Wasn't part of his original plan. Itachi's actions are a mess, and it showcases in his decision making. Kishi tried so hard to depict him as a genius at life. Instead of just a genius in battle. And the result is character that he appears to be rather incompetent.

So the question is how much? How much back up plans did he need. And why do those back up plans not add up. Considering Itachi admitted that he essentially intended to guide his path SOLO. Yet Sasuke didn't become the WHO is in Boruto solely because of Itachi.


> Yes
> 
> Or
> 
> ...


You left an option. I'll take "HELL TO THE NO" for 200 please. If you say yes than you're an Itachi tard, who believes he's incapable of making mistakes. Which means you don't know shit about the character. As his swan song, chapter 590, tells the tail far better than any poster on Naruto forums could tell you.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 8, 2019)

Itachi isn't a high kage lol


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 8, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> And I'm asking you essentially the same question, but a broader scale. Come, come now. You cannot discuss that battle without touching upon the cause. *Itachi planned that fight no more than he planned to, "take care of Sasuke"* as his dad initially wished prior Itachi murdering him.


So are you saying he *didn't* plan the entire fight with contingency plans? Yes or no. Simple question.



> And* let me ask you this. Did everything go as Itachi initially planned?*


I asked you first.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 8, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> So are you saying he *didn't* plan the entire fight with contingency plans? Yes or no. Simple question.


I only know one language my guy, and I believe I was pretty clear. I addressed your question in great detail. He no more PLAN THE FIGHT THAN HE DID SASUKE'S LIFE. As I said 590 tells the tail far better than I could. Itachi had a endgame for what wanted for Sasuke. The problem is he had no clue how to get there. He relied mainly on Sasuke to simply survive. Just like he'd probably an endgame for the fight. But he was essentially relying on just Sasuke to survive. For Itachi to make plans for Sasuke. He'd first have to understand Sasuke. Be able to see to things from his perspective, etc.,etc. But we both know Itachi never did that now don't we.




> I asked you first.


But I basically addressed the issue in English, Swahili, and Latin. What more do you want?

The person who needs to address the issue is clearly you. But I believe you already know how absurd that would be for you to say yes. Considering how much evidence we have to say no. Considering how impossible it would be to justify the statement in the first place. But considering it wouldn't be the first statement said about Itachi in order to justify his actions. Remember the, "gentle child" remark cited by Fugaku? Yeah, do you believe that too?


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## AxelKross (Jul 8, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I only know one language my guy, and I believe I was pretty clear. I addressed your question in great detail. He no more PLAN THE FIGHT THAN HE DID SASUKE'S LIFE. As I said 590 tells the tail far better than I could. Itachi had a endgame for what wanted for Sasuke. The problem is he had no clue how to get there. He relied mainly on Sasuke to simply survive. Just like he'd probably an endgame for the fight. But he was essentially relying on just Sasuke to survive. For Itachi to make plans for Sasuke. He'd first have to understand Sasuke. Be able to see to things from his perspective, etc.,etc. But we both know Itachi never did that now don't we.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is complete nonsense and fanfic.

We are told itachi had the fight undercontrol from start to finish and no amount of head canon dissertations will change that.


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## AxelKross (Jul 8, 2019)




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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 8, 2019)

DeathTheKid said:


> This is complete nonsense and fanfic.


Fanfic and nonsense? I suppose you would think that if you only know his character from a power perspective. Here's my advice; come and talk to me when you are ready to talk about Itachi character as a whole.



> We are told itachi had the fight undercontrol from start to finish and no amount of head canon dissertations will change that.


Yeah because a fight involves one person? We were also told that Itachi was a "gentle child," and no matter how many people he must have murdered in the massacre. How many times Sasuke has needed saving after Itachi's "life lessons" it's ridiculous to assume he wasn't in control.....You sound silly.

Don't go chasing waterfalls people.... Please stick to aspects "YOU WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE" about your favorite used to....


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## AxelKross (Jul 8, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Fanfic and nonsense? I suppose you would think that if you only know his character from a power perspective. Here's my advice come and talk to me when you are ready to talk about Itachi character as a whole.
> 
> 
> Yeah because a fight involves one person? We were also told that Itachi was a "gentle child," and no matter how many people he must have murdered in the massacre. How many times Sasuke has needed saving after Itachi's "life lessons" it's ridiculous to assume he wasn't in control.....You sound silly.
> ...


Thats nice dog but this is the battledome. There are other places for lore discussion

All the stuff youre butthurt about is canon which you cant deny or refute.

Itachi valued life and wished for all war to end. Fact
He sacrificed his personal attachments to reduce bloodshed via a civil war. Fact
He sacrificed him self and all his wants to do the mission the 3rd and the village gave to him as anbu. Fact.
He controlled hebis whole fight to make him look like he won and give him his eyes to be the leafs hero. Also fact.


No amount of walls of text will refute these as you cant: its fact.


Advice, try keeping things short and to the point sometimes. Its kinda embarassing seeing you answer a yes or no question with 500 meaningless words


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 8, 2019)

@IpHr0z3nI 

why you disrespecting Itachi?


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## Sapherosth (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI spouting shit as per usual...hahaha.

Can't even answer a simple yes or no.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 9, 2019)

Exclusive picture of Hussain right now:

Bbb-but Jonin level ￼￼jonin level!


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

DeathTheKid said:


> Thats nice dog but this is the battledome. There are other places for lore discussion


First of let me start off my saying the name suits you quite well because this about to be literally "THE-DEATH-TO-THIS-KID"
(Deal how)

First and foremost I'm well aware of where this is, and I'm quite familiar with any and all section. And considering my response was well a response that started from....Well....



Mad Scientist said:


> Yeah, Itachi could have finished Sasuke off at nearly any point. *He planned out the entire fight, even accounting for contingencies.*



.....Well, here.....

Note: My response was bringing the *BOLD *into question. Considering I consider myself knowledgeable on everything an all things related to Uchiha. I chose to give a more... Well......"DETAILED" response; because as you know this is a message board. Which last I check, rudimentary purpose is for a person to EXPRESS THEMSELVES and more importantly HAVE FUN doing so. And how someone does that is well.......(I'll be addressing your last paragraph throughout my post)



> All the stuff youre butthurt about is canon which you cant deny or refute.


First and foremost if you are going to give an advice to someone who's far, far more experience as these dealing than you. You should probably "GET TO KNOW THEM FIRST," and more importantly actually know what you are talking about before jumping into an "A","B" conversation to only "C" that ass get embarrassed by trying to ride someone's else "D" when your opinion about "HOW SOMEONE ELSE LOOKS TO YOU" is "E"relevant considering I do this for my OWN "F"un. What did I bring up that wasn't canon? If you are familiar with my post, you'd know I'd never skip on the panel to back what I'm saying. It was only because I was on my PHONE, and It's kinda hard to POST PANEL to validate well anything, when not on a computer; and quite frankly if you are as FAMILIAR WITH THE CHARACTER, as you are familiar with the details to support, "Why is Itachi High Kage" you shouldn't need me to "G"uide you regards to the shortcomings of his character. Which is very relevant if I'm addressing,"*He planned out the entire fight, even accounting for contingencies." *As the key words there being "planned out" and "accounting for contingencies" isn't at all accurate when examine not only ALL of Obito's words, but HOW ITACHI TREATED SASUKE IN GENERAL, who was also a person in the fight, if I do recall. But moving on.



> Itachi valued life and wished for all war to end. Fact


Are you merely regurgitating opinions from characters from the manga, and passing them off as fact? Or can you really, really debate the details of set character, as I was doing earlier before you so "BOLDLY" jumped into the conversation.

But I got's some FACTS for that ass. Judging from Itachi's action your statement is highly questionable.
It's even more questionable if we are actually examining Itachi's truth told from  himself. Earlier I told @Mad Scientist  to read 590. And I'm going to give you that same advice as well. I believe the word you are looking for to describe Itachi is "Pacifist", but I'm afraid Itachi's actions as a WHOLE doesn't quite fit the description.
.(Facts)

He didn't believe in war, but he was far, far wiling to utilize VIOLENCE; especially when it came to things such as protecting his littler brother. ......................Either knew the key words to get Itachi to act(Danzo); Accepted the mission(Itachi);Or understood the reasoning behind Itachi's action(Fugaku)(In that Order)
.....Oh he did, did he? Question? Didn't this very Itachi threaten to put the village safety in jeopardy, if harm were to come to Sasuke. . But we didn't need Obito to tell us that now did we?  than any IpHr0z3nI

P.S FACTS!!!!



> He sacrificed his personal attachments to reduce bloodshed via a civil war. Fact


.(Fact)


> He sacrificed him self and all his wants to do the mission the 3rd and the village gave to him as anbu. Fact.


But this doesn't address anything I said.(Facts)
It's highly irrelevant.(Facts)
You not demonstrating true understanding of the character.(Facts)
And therefore probably shouldn't have.....(Opinion)
But as I told you before, "Please stick to aspects "YOU WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE" about your favorite used to...."
You acknowledge the cause....But not the result.....You've didn't even attempt to acknowledge Itachi's character from Sasuke's perspective at all. Which is quite a no, no. As he doesn't exactly exist as a character without incorporating the "UGLINESS" you are clearly opting to address.(Facts)


> He controlled hebis whole fight to make him look like he won and give him his eyes to be the leafs hero. Also fact.


But if only, if only....things had played out that way. I already addressed much of this Bullshit already.
But whatever(Deal how)
He controlled Hebi the whole fight? First in foremost who in the hell is Hebis?You mean Sasuke? He does have a name you know? Secondly how could he control "Hebis" whole fight" if Itachi can't FIGHT FOR "HEBIS". Question?  Did Itachi just lie over and die? Correct me if I ain't right, but wasn't it also Itachi's plan to give Sasuke his revenge as atonement for the "" and in the process ""

Read my initial response IT'S ALL FACTS. AND UNLIKE YOU, IT ACTUALLY SHOWCASES UNDERSTANDING OF THE CHARACTER.

"And I'm asking you essentially the same question, but a broader scale. Come, come now. You cannot discuss that battle without touching upon the cause. Itachi planned that fight no more than he planned to, "take care of Sasuke" as his dad initially wished prior Itachi murdering him. And let me ask you this. Did everything go as Itachi initially planned? If so, than answer this. How did he know what role Naruto would play, which I think we can agree was essential to, "taking care of Sasuke" which continued long after Itachi's death.(Both of them) And if he knew that, that very Naruto was essential. Why oh why did Itachi tell Sasuke to kill him? I think you know where I'm going here. Itachi's "contigencies" either imply that he is omniscient. Or that he didn't know WHAT THE FUCK HE WAS DOING!!!! And considering that essentially spent the rest of his life, and then some. Trying fix a problem he played a pivotal role in starting, and then at the end admitted to be a complete failure. Why would think he is Omniscient? What makes you believe Obito's words. When most what Obito cited either didn't happen exactly how Itachi envisioned. Or wouldn't have happened if Sasuke never met or got the chance to speak to Obito, and learn the truth. Which is the very thing Itachi was trying to prevent when he implanted Amaterasu into Sasuke's eyes upon the end of their battle."
(What about the above is FAN FIC?)

You criticize me for not giving a yes or no answer; which I did. But unlike you I'm not simply just satisfied with adding a meaningless +1 to my post count. I come here to discuss characters I like, hate, and all in between. How dare you of all people, who's only been active for TWO MONTHS AND SOME CHANGE, have the right to tell me how to post? 



> No amount of walls of text will refute these as you cant: its fact.


What you cited here has really, nothing! NOTHING! NOTHING! To do with my post. Learn to crawl before you walk.(There's levels to this shit, and not all posters are created equally, my friend)




> Advice, try keeping things short and to the point sometimes. Its kinda embarassing seeing you answer a yes or no question with 500 meaningless words


Advice, try learning the purpose of a message board first, and learn that different people have different posting styles. I spend most of my time reading; more than I post. So I do not mind reading a post with some substance. Which is opted to read @Sufex post earlier, which discusses this very same topic.(And here's a hint it's rather lengthy)

Some more advice. Learn to examine a situation more carefully before you post. I started off giving short and to the point answers. I actually answered his question several times. Then when I read what he was using as a reference, and I opted to attack the point out right. That's how a DEBATE WORKS.

If I'm embarrassing myself, then please oh please, let me. Because the only result that would come if you actually tried to address my points, is embarrassment on your part. You notice how @Mad Scientist  didn't attempt to defend himself. So why, oh why, did you think you were going to fair any better. And also compare my post the shit I read from you was even more "meaningless". I didn't learn anything in regards to Itachi's character I didn't already know. That's very definition of MEANINGLESS!


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> IpHr0z3nI spouting shit as per usual...hahaha.
> 
> Can't even answer a simple yes or no.


@Sapherosth don't have the courage to even @ me. I'm appalled. I would have never found your post if I wasn't you know... READING. How about you do the same for me. Because it's quite clear I answered the post. ON SEVERAL, SEVERAL DIFFERENT OCCASIONS. Using different approaches. And it's funny how you call me out for not answering question when @Mad Scientist didn't address a single question I ask.(Notice how I'm actually @ people....I WANT ALL THE SMOKE, CUZ

But in case you missed it here's a sample of just one.

*"You left an option. I'll take "HELL TO THE NO" for 200 please.* If you say yes than you're an Itachi tard, who believes he's incapable of making mistakes. Which means you don't know shit about the character. As his swan song, chapter 590, tells the tail far better than any poster on Naruto forums could tell you."

But I didn't stop there, I called out you WHOLE PAD.


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> @Sapherosth don't have the courage to even @ me. I'm appalled. I would have never found your post if I wasn't you know... READING. How about you do the same for me. Because it's quite clear I answered the post. ON SEVERAL, SEVERAL DIFFERENT OCCASIONS. Using different approaches. And it's funny how you call me out for not answering question when @Mad Scientist didn't address a single question I ask.(Notice how I'm actually @ people....I WANT ALL THE SMOKE, CUZ
> 
> But in case you missed it here's a sample of just one.
> 
> ...


Don't assume I won't respond to you. You're right, this is supposed to be fun.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> @IpHr0z3nI
> 
> why you disrespecting Itachi?


I didn't disrespect shit. I never said he wasn't "High Kage"
Never questioned his power. I only addressed his EVERYTHING THAT EXIST OUTSIDE OF THAT, AND THAT WAS ONLY AFTER.....(See Below)

But what usually gets Itachi fans "indicted" is there constant need to PUT DOWN SASUKE, TO HYPE ITACHI. 
Exhibit 
Exhibit 

Itachi fans should know by now, anything and everything he did when comes to Sasuke IS...What's DANZO'S WORDS AGAIN....... ! My post only addresses THAT ASPECT OF HIS CHARACTER. Because it's seems that's the aspect of ITACHI'S CHARACTER EITHER ITACHI FANS DON'T KNOW, OR DON'T CARE TO ACKNOWLEDGE.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Don't assume I won't respond to you. You're right, this is supposed to be fun.


Did you read? I never accused you of not responding. I accused of not answering my questions. There's a difference.


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Did you read? I never accused you of not responding. I accused of not answering my questions. There's a difference.


Replying to your question is a form of response.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Replying to your question is a form of response.


Pardon me. But I'm an old school. It's give in take. If you ask me a question, and I answered it. It's common courtesy for you to do he same.

And you asked me to simply read . For which I was trying to address, FROM A PHONE, the only way I knew how. With a argument that questions that statement outright. Because to believe that, you would have to actually believe ITACHI knew what Sasuke was going to do. And we know enough about Itachi's character is that when it comes to Sasuke, he didn't.......(Which is why I told you to read 590) But I'm at a computer now, so I can't debunk that panel without a drawn out explanation to the dynamics of Itachi and Sasuke's character. I can debunk you with what Obito's with purely panel. First and foremost . Was Itachi expecting that? And if you think Sasuke was okay....Why don't you take into account not only , but very same Obito's words . IMO Itachi no more calculated everything than that battle than he did . Unless you are arguing Itachi already knew Tsunade would save him. Oh, but Obito saved him right? Itachi was sure Obito would....Itachi clearly didn't want Sasuke to even MEET OBITO. As  stated.(That 401 also). And as proven by Itachi's later , which IMO SHOWCASES JUST HOW WRONG  STATEMENT IS. Itachi literally ask Naruto, "Why didn't Sasuke return the village," which indicates ALTHOUGH HE PLANNED A CONTINGENCY FOR OBITO KNOWING THE TRUTH. He wasn't . And had Sasuke simply returned the the village, .(That's 401 again by the way) Sasuke didn't unlock the MS from killing Itachi. Sasuke unlocked the MS because he LEARNED THE  ABOUT .(I told you Itachi's character is a MESS, AND I'M GOING TO PROVE IT)

But wait Iphr0z3nI the crow, the crow indicates . Then why did he question Naruto for why Sasuke didn't return to the village in the first place? And remember the crow was only to counter act , as they only were triggered to respond to Itachi's eyes.(Do I need to go on, or can you peace together how BULLSHIT,  statement is) An EMS Sasuke wouldn't have acquired if he did not meet the very Obito, Itachi never wanted Sasuke to meet in the first place. Still not convinced that Itachi didn't plan EVERYTHING ABOUT THAT FIGHT? Let's see Edo Itachi and Sasuke's first conversation. Long story short Itachi was    TO   HIS VERY OWN WORDS. Ya'll talk about I can't give a straight answers? What the hell is Itachi giving Sasuke at first?(Itachi fans)

So how my current question to you...Since I gave you your answer in "SONG"...And just to make sure we address the question as SIMPLE AND CLEAN as possible you hear that ! @DeathTheKid @Sapherosth

This was your original argument, right?

"He planned out the entire fight, even accounting for *contingencies*."

How much "contingencies" did he need? As from what I showcased he clearly didn't expect or want him to meet Obito. Therefore no MS. No EMS. Therefore no need for a crow. He clearly wanted Sasuke to, "?

How much "contingencies" did he need....When he clearly wasn't expecting . So you think he planned Sasuke passing out, and as far as we know, not being saved by Obito? So part of Itachi's "contingency" plan was for Naruto and company to save him? How did he know Naruto and company would even know his location?Oh that's right? Itachi just knew Sasuke would be able to "SURVIVE" because he's clearly "OMNISCIENT",and that's how it always turned out. Either way  statement is looking rather suspect. I told you before Itachi's character was a mess. And I wasn't being cruel or hating. I was simply TAKING TO ACCOUNT ALL THE "CONTINGENCIES" Itachi has taken in regards to EVERYTHING SASUKE. Bottom line he ain't PERFECT. The first thing he says to Naruto after the Nagato battle is the following, "" Where did you he learned that from? Trick question..""

So again @DeathTheKid am I "butthurt" or do I simply know the character better than you. Those are all FACTS, AS I HARDLY PROVIDED ANY OPINION AT ALL.


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## AxelKross (Jul 9, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> IpHr0z3nI spouting shit as per usual...hahaha.
> 
> Can't even answer a simple yes or no.


 he is still going on


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

DeathTheKid said:


> he is still going on


On the contrary I finished posting what I did a long time ago, but from way you were speaking...I thought you was about that action, Boss? Don't start troll posting now. Keep that same energy. I know you aren't shy? Did you lose your will to post a proper response? Look who's the one looking "Butthurt" now? If you wasn't going to address me properly. Why resort to this?


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## AxelKross (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> First of let me start off my saying the name suits you quite well because this about to be literally "THE-DEATH-TO-THIS-KID"
> (Deal how)
> 
> First and foremost I'm well aware of where this is, and I'm quite familiar with any and all section. And considering my response was well a response that started from....Well....
> ...


 I legit skimmed this and still dont even know what you're talking about, was itachi a liar? No shit. Did his actions contradict his words? Sure.


But none of this changes canon. If ur gonna quote me stop typing every thought that you have between typing the first word and pressing submit, at least try and write some substance.

Reactions: Like 1


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

DeathTheKid said:


> I legit skimmed this and still dont even know what you're talking about, was itachi a liar? No shit. Did his actions contradict his words? Sure.


_Sigh _(I don't know if I'm going to be wasting my time, but why not)

Because you did not understand the conversation to begin with. And why are you switching up your argument now? You did initially accuse me of not answer his post directly. So I did just that, with "FACTS"

I was essentially debunking, "He planned out the entire fight, even accounting for *contingencies*."

And I think my post if you actually bothered to read it properly. Debunks just that. I'm pretty thorough and EFFICIENT WHEN I POST. Which comes when you take the time.



> But none of this changes canon. If ur gonna quote me stop typing every thought that you have between typing the first word and pressing submit, at least try and write some substance.


Good god, you talk big, but you can't back it up.

I don't have to change canon, I simply discredited the statement outright using CANON. Look at the actual LINKS. It's crystal clear, what I was arbitrating.

And considering you came @me I don't think I'm obliged to change way I post to JUST SO YOU CAN COMPETE. Either "LEVEL UP" or "SHUT UP" Either read thoroughly, and actually understand the argument or stop "Embarrassing" yourself by wasting both your time and mine.


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## AxelKross (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> And I think my post if you actually bothered to read it properly. Debunks just that. I'm pretty thorough and EFFICIENT WHEN I POST. Which comes when you take the time.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yeah because a fight involves one person? We were also told that Itachi was a "gentle child," and no matter how many people he must have murdered in the massacre. How many times Sasuke has needed saving after Itachi's "life lessons" it's ridiculous to assume he wasn't in control.....You sound silly.



You didnt debunk shit cus u cant. all ur saying are your thoughts on itachis character and how u dont like him, thats fine cus I've reacenbly noticed sasuke fans hate itachi which is funny considering sasuke called my man itachi perfect XD

the rest of ur crap is dunked by the manga itself kid




Heres a tip buddy read the itachi novel because all the stuff ur saying is gone into more detail. and that is much better time spent than posting pages of non sequiters


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 9, 2019)

​


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yeah where does the manga ever state that.
> *The only thing that Obito states is that Sasuke would be dead if Itachi was serious.* I also remember something along the lines of Sasuke playing his role, and Itachi needing to push Sasuke hard enough to drive out Oro.


That is not all Tobi states. He also states all of the following, which apparently you were too lazy to look up (at least initially).

​


IpHr0z3nI said:


> But nothing a long the lines of planning the entire fight.


False. "Everything that occurred during that battle, Itachi had carefully set up" and "Even [Sasuke's] contingency plans were part of his calculations". This is not unreasonable at all, as Itachi could have beaten Sasuke there at nearly any point.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> I'm quite confident I know any and all details regarding that fight.


After refusing to acknowledge canon facts, I seriously doubt that.



> The only statement that alludes to one being able to break Tsukuyomi is, "Only a Sharingan user with the same blood as me can defeat me." And not only is that word for word verbatim. *It doesn't even necessarily apply to Tsukuyomi*.


You've contradicted yourself.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> As things didn't exactly go as Itachi planned they almost never do in regards to Itachi and Sasuke.


Tobi even admitted how far Itachi planned ahead (when he survived the Amaterasu). Hard to believe your words over Tobi's. Of course, he failed in killing him or keeping him away, due to lack of knowledge on Izanagi, but that doesn't disprove the fact that the overall battle between him and Sasuke went exactly as he planned.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> And I'm asking you essentially the same question, but a broader scale. Come, come now. You cannot discuss that battle without touching upon the cause. Itachi planned that fight no more than he planned to, "take care of Sasuke" as his dad initially wished prior Itachi murdering him. And let me ask you this. Did everything go as Itachi initially planned? If so, than answer this. How did he know what role Naruto would play, which I think we can agree was essential to, "taking care of Sasuke" which continued long after Itachi's death.(Both of them) And if he knew that, that very Naruto was essential. Why oh why did Itachi tell Sasuke to kill him? I think you know where I'm going here. Itachi's "contigencies" either imply that he is omniscient. Or that he didn't know WHAT THE FUCK HE WAS DOING!!!! And considering that essentially spent the rest of his life, and then some. Trying fix a problem he played a pivotal role in starting, and then at the end admitted to be a complete failure. Why would think he is Omniscient? What makes you believe Obito's words. When most what Obito cited either didn't happen exactly how Itachi envisioned. Or wouldn't have happened if Sasuke never met or got the chance to speak to Obito, and learn the truth. Which is the very thing Itachi was trying to prevent when he implanted Amaterasu into Sasuke's eyes upon the end of their battle.


Sasuke's ignorance or lack thereof of Itachi's motives, nor Itachi's knowledge of Naruto's role or lack thereof, doesn't mean that particular battle didn't go exactly as planned. You ask why I believe Tobi's words? Let me ask you instead, why _wouldn't_ you believe a fellow Uchiha who helped Itachi slaughter his own clan, an Uchiha who is one of the most knowledgeable characters in the entire series, someone who even orchestrated the Fourth Shinobi World War? You claim Itachi didn't protect Sasuke, when it's canonically stated that he lived his life to do so, and that he was protecting the Leaf, even when it's canon fact that was also one of Itachi's true motives.



> It's virtually impossible. If you try to take into account everything that Obito cited. Obito cited something along the lines of, "by witnessing his death he'd awakened the MS." But the MS only awakened after knowing the truth in regards to Itachi. Which we know by both his decision implant the Amaterasu trap into Sasuke to kill Obito.
> Wasn't part of his original plan. Itachi's actions are a mess, and it showcases in his decision making. Kishi tried so hard to depict him as a genius at life. Instead of just a genius in battle. And the result is character that he appears to be rather incompetent.


Did he say that it would awaken immediately? Lol. It's a canonical fact that emotional triggers are triggers in helping to awaken the MS. Same thing even happened to younger Kakashi. Unsurprisingly, Sasuke got MS shortly after and unsurprisingly still, it was stated/heavily implied Sasuke was close to getting it anyway.



> So the question is how much? How much back up plans did he need. And why do those back up plans not add up. Considering Itachi admitted that he essentially intended to guide his path SOLO. Yet Sasuke didn't become the WHO is in Boruto solely because of Itachi.
> 
> You left an option. I'll take "HELL TO THE NO" for 200 please. If you say yes than you're an Itachi tard, who believes he's incapable of making mistakes. Which means you don't know shit about the character. As his swan song, chapter 590, tells the tail far better than any poster on Naruto forums could tell you.


None of this means that that particular fighting wasn't fully planned for.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> I only know one language my guy, and I believe I was pretty clear. I addressed your question in great detail. He no more PLAN THE FIGHT THAN HE DID SASUKE'S LIFE. As I said 590 tells the tail far better than I could. Itachi had a endgame for what wanted for Sasuke. The problem is he had no clue how to get there. He relied mainly on Sasuke to simply survive. Just like he'd probably an endgame for the fight. But he was essentially relying on just Sasuke to survive. For Itachi to make plans for Sasuke. He'd first have to understand Sasuke. Be able to see to things from his perspective, etc.,etc. But we both know Itachi never did that now don't we.


Refuted



IpHr0z3nI said:


> What did I bring up that wasn't canon? If you are familiar with my post, you'd know I'd never skip on the panel to back what I'm saying. It was only because I was on my PHONE, and It's kinda hard to POST PANEL to validate well anything, when not on a computer; and quite frankly if you are as FAMILIAR WITH THE CHARACTER, as you are familiar with the details to support, "Why is Itachi High Kage" you shouldn't need me to "G"uide you regards to the shortcomings of his character. Which is very relevant if I'm addressing,"*He planned out the entire fight, even accounting for contingencies." *As the key words there being "planned out" and "accounting for contingencies" isn't at all accurate when examine not only ALL of Obito's words, but HOW ITACHI TREATED SASUKE IN GENERAL, who was also a person in the fight, if I do recall. But moving on.
> 
> But I got's some FACTS for that ass. Judging from Itachi's action your statement is highly questionable.
> It's even more questionable if we are actually examining Itachi's truth told from [LINKHL]445537[/LINKHL] himself. Earlier I told @Mad Scientist  to read 590. And I'm going to give you that same advice as well. I believe the word you are looking for to describe Itachi is "Pacifist", but I'm afraid Itachi's actions as a WHOLE doesn't quite fit the description.
> ...


I've refuted your opinion that Itachi didn't fully plan that fight.
Itachi, the genius and kind-hearted person he really was, wasn't going to abandon the village he slaughtered his clan to protect from civil warfare and likely another big war with nearby countries. It's canonical fact that Itachi protected his former village and Sasuke as best as he could. He may have gotten some things wrong, and canonically, even he admitted he got some things wrong, but as for that particular fight, he fundamentally orchestrated it even to the very end. Denying this is absurd.



> [LINKHL]445545[/LINKHL].(Fact)
> 
> But this doesn't address anything I said.(Facts)
> It's highly irrelevant.(Facts)
> ...


Repeating the opinion that I didn't address your false claims, doesn't make your argument stronger.



> But if only, if only....things had played out that way. I already addressed much of this Bullshit already.
> But whatever(Deal how)
> He controlled Hebi the whole fight? First in foremost who in the hell is Hebis?You mean Sasuke? He does have a name you know? Secondly how could he control "Hebis" whole fight" if Itachi can't FIGHT FOR "HEBIS". Question?  Did Itachi just lie over and die? Correct me if I ain't right, but wasn't it also Itachi's plan to give Sasuke his revenge as atonement for the "[LINKHL]445546[/LINKHL]" and in the process "[LINKHL]445547[/LINKHL]"


Not sure what you're claiming. Itachi planned that entire fight and deceived Sasuke until his very end. Itachi may have gotten some things wrong elsewhere and/or along the way, but you seriously need to read chapter 401.



> Read my initial response IT'S ALL FACTS. AND UNLIKE YOU, IT ACTUALLY SHOWCASES UNDERSTANDING OF THE CHARACTER.
> 
> "And I'm asking you essentially the same question, but a broader scale. Come, come now. You cannot discuss that battle without touching upon the cause. Itachi planned that fight no more than he planned to, "take care of Sasuke" as his dad initially wished prior Itachi murdering him. And let me ask you this. Did everything go as Itachi initially planned? If so, than answer this. How did he know what role Naruto would play, which I think we can agree was essential to, "taking care of Sasuke" which continued long after Itachi's death.(Both of them) And if he knew that, that very Naruto was essential. Why oh why did Itachi tell Sasuke to kill him? I think you know where I'm going here. Itachi's "contigencies" either imply that he is omniscient. Or that he didn't know WHAT THE FUCK HE WAS DOING!!!! And considering that essentially spent the rest of his life, and then some. Trying fix a problem he played a pivotal role in starting, and then at the end admitted to be a complete failure. Why would think he is Omniscient? What makes you believe Obito's words. When most what Obito cited either didn't happen exactly how Itachi envisioned. Or wouldn't have happened if Sasuke never met or got the chance to speak to Obito, and learn the truth. Which is the very thing Itachi was trying to prevent when he implanted Amaterasu into Sasuke's eyes upon the end of their battle."
> (What about the above is FAN FIC?)






> You criticize me for not giving a yes or no answer; which I did. But unlike you I'm not simply just satisfied with adding a meaningless +1 to my post count. I come here to discuss characters I like, hate, and all in between. How dare you of all people, who's only been active for TWO MONTHS AND SOME CHANGE, have the right to tell me how to post?
> 
> 
> What you cited here has really, nothing! NOTHING! NOTHING! To do with my post. Learn to crawl before you walk.(There's levels to this shit, and not all posters are created equally, my friend)
> ...


Lol. You didn't give a simple yes or no. You criticised me for not defending my point even when your answers are tedious and verbose, then later twisting this by suggesting that answering a question doesn't fall under the same umbrella as giving a response - when that's exactly what it would be though - a response.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Pardon me. But I'm an old school. It's give in take. If you ask me a question, and I answered it. It's common courtesy for you to do he same.
> 
> And you asked me to simply read . For which I was trying to address, FROM A PHONE, the only way I knew how. With a argument that questions that statement outright. Because to believe that, you would have to actually believe ITACHI knew what Sasuke was going to do. And we know enough about Itachi's character is that when it comes to Sasuke, he didn't.......(Which is why I told you to read 590) But I'm at a computer now, so I can't debunk that panel without a drawn out explanation to the dynamics of Itachi and Sasuke's character. I can debunk you with what Obito's with purely panel. First and foremost . Was Itachi expecting that? And if you think Sasuke was okay....Why don't you take into account not only , but very same Obito's words . IMO Itachi no more calculated everything than that battle than he did . Unless you are arguing Itachi already knew Tsunade would save him. Oh, but Obito saved him right? Itachi was sure Obito would....Itachi clearly didn't want Sasuke to even MEET OBITO. As  stated.(That 401 also). And as proven by Itachi's later , which IMO SHOWCASES JUST HOW WRONG  STATEMENT IS. Itachi literally ask Naruto, "Why didn't Sasuke return the village," which indicates ALTHOUGH HE PLANNED A CONTINGENCY FOR OBITO KNOWING THE TRUTH. He wasn't . And had Sasuke simply returned the the village, .(That's 401 again by the way) Sasuke didn't unlock the MS from killing Itachi. Sasuke unlocked the MS because he LEARNED THE  ABOUT .(I told you Itachi's character is a MESS, AND I'M GOING TO PROVE IT)


Sasuke simply went unconscious. He would most likely wake up later and survive somehow - his experiences and training have made him strong - he even smiled as he was falling. Itachi would have been careful not to make him severely wounded to the point of death. Itachi definitely planned that entire fight. He didn't foresee everything that would have occurred later, and his original ambition didn't play out exactly. Doesn't mean he didn't plan that entire fight though.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

DeathTheKid said:


> You didnt debunk shit cus u cant. all ur saying are your thoughts on itachis character and how u dont like him, thats fine cus I've reacenbly noticed sasuke fans hate itachi which is funny considering sasuke called my man itachi perfect XD


How would you know when you literally just said,"I legit skimmed this and still dont even know what you're talking about, was itachi a liar? No shit. Did his actions contradict his words? Sure."

You need learn there's levels to this, mate. 


> the rest of ur crap is dunked by the manga itself kid


It's cute that you are least trying to "pretend" that you understand Itachi's character better than I do. But considering literally included those scans AND MORE. And considering even now YOU STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M ADDRESSING. The "Kid"(I mean literally you have KID in your name, my guy) 

(No all jokes, aside. I really, really, Respect that you are least trying to do. But part of respect is reading FIRST. The purpose of a message board is both post your opinion, and LISTEN TO OTHERS OPINION. You're not going to be taken seriously in a serious discussion, if you don't at least attempt to play the part)



> Heres a tip buddy read the itachi novel because all the stuff ur saying is gone into more detail. and that is much better time spent than posting pages of non sequiters


Oh good god, why? Look how long I've been here. I'm not trying to brag. I'm showcasing THAT I AM VERY, VERY FAMILIAR WITH WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. Which why most people who address me either come with their A game, Troll game, Or simply "Shut UP" in general. Notice what I said ALLUDED EARLIER.That I can smoke most of these quote on quote "Itachi fans." That's because I'm knowledgeable in all things Uchiha, but if really knew Itachi character, understand it, breath it, LOVE IT.  You'd know that Itachi''s story is told from Sasuke's perspective. Just as most of Sasuke's character is rooted in Itachi's. They are married baby boy. So you can cite all the novels you want, but the problem is, I probably, probably am already familiar with anything involving that as well.(You do know most of his novel was showcased in the anime, right?)

But if really want to impress me. No. If you really want to show me you about that action "BOSS" you'd start with actually debunking what I posted. As merely posting three panels THAT I ALREADY INCLUDED. Let me reiterate, I ALREADY INCLUDED, without proper contest, what aspect of my post you are trying to dispute. Dismissing the rest of my post as "dunked by the manga itself kid,' when the only thing I post was from the MANGA ITSELF SHOWS ME, that you're no serious threat to my point. How do you accuse me of "embarrassing" myself for trying to relay my points THOROUGHLY. And when you try to do the same.....You do this. (Keep in mind: is that despite my disagreement with your opinion, I took your advice. I kept my post as short as possible, and the only thing I'm explaining is what the panel itself, says. Correct me if I ain't right, but you initially called me out for not answer directly a SIMPLE YES OR NO QUESTION, right? What do you want me to do "BOSS"? I "worked the field," "I watered the plants....." I can't guide you on what I'm debating because you already showcased to me over and over and over....That no matter what I do....You are not GOING TO READ IT.(I respect your knowledge on Itachi's character though. I seen some of your other post in the Itachi threads....(I like you, you at least have the courage to engage, when most Itachi fans I know don't) But set thread was relating to his power. You want impress me. Show me something that I haven't seen acknowledge by Itachi fans IN YEARS.(And I've been here for a while) Understanding of his FAULTS. You can't talk to me about Itachi's character if you are not willing to acknowledge the parts that even make him a CHARACTER.....He's more than just his power, prestige, and all in between. He's Sasuke's BROTHER FIRST. Understand that.....Then come holler @ your boy, because I'm always willing to LISTEN. If YOU'RE WILLING TO LISTEN TOO. 

But you can teach one thing because I'm not sure how. How do you post PANELS, because I'm not sure how to do it consistently. Maybe if I made what on providing links for ACTUAL PANEL, you'd have to do LESS LISTENING. An you most definitively wouldn't be posting the same pages I already posted.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> ​
> 
> That is not all Tobi states. He also states all of the following, which apparently you were too lazy to look up (at least initially).
> 
> ...



I already addressed this Mr.



Mad Scientist said:


> Replying to your question is a form of response.


Pardon me. But I'm an old school. It's give in take. If you ask me a question, and I answered it. It's common courtesy for you to do he same.

And you asked me to simply read .(My first LINK IS THE VERY PAGE YOU ARE GIVING ME) For which I was trying to address, FROM A PHONE, the only way I knew how. With a argument that questions that statement outright. Because to believe that, you would have to actually believe ITACHI knew what Sasuke was going to do. And we know enough about Itachi's character is that when it comes to Sasuke, he didn't.......(Which is why I told you to read 590) But I'm at a computer now, so I can't debunk that panel without a drawn out explanation to the dynamics of Itachi and Sasuke's character. I can debunk you with what Obito's with purely panel. First and foremost . Was Itachi expecting that? And if you think Sasuke was okay....Why don't you take into account not only , but very same Obito's words . IMO Itachi no more calculated everything than that battle than he did . Unless you are arguing Itachi already knew Tsunade would save him. Oh, but Obito saved him right? Itachi was sure Obito would....Itachi clearly didn't want Sasuke to even MEET OBITO. As  stated.(That 401 also). And as proven by Itachi's later , which IMO SHOWCASES JUST HOW WRONG  STATEMENT IS. Itachi literally ask Naruto, "Why didn't Sasuke return the village," which indicates ALTHOUGH HE PLANNED A CONTINGENCY FOR OBITO KNOWING THE TRUTH. He wasn't . And had Sasuke simply returned the the village, .(That's 401 again by the way) Sasuke didn't unlock the MS from killing Itachi. Sasuke unlocked the MS because he LEARNED THE  ABOUT .(I told you Itachi's character is a MESS, AND I'M GOING TO PROVE IT)

But wait Iphr0z3nI the crow, the crow indicates . Then why did he question Naruto for why Sasuke didn't return to the village in the first place? And remember the crow was only to counter act , as they only were triggered to respond to Itachi's eyes.(Do I need to go on, or can you peace together how BULLSHIT,  statement is) An EMS Sasuke wouldn't have acquired if he did not meet the very Obito, Itachi never wanted Sasuke to meet in the first place. Still not convinced that Itachi didn't plan EVERYTHING ABOUT THAT FIGHT? Let's see Edo Itachi and Sasuke's first conversation. Long story short Itachi was    TO   HIS VERY OWN WORDS. Ya'll talk about I can't give a straight answers? What the hell is Itachi giving Sasuke at first?(Itachi fans)

So how my current question to you...Since I gave you your answer in "SONG"...And just to make sure we address the question as SIMPLE AND CLEAN as possible you hear that ! @DeathTheKid @Sapherosth

This was your original argument, right?

"He planned out the entire fight, even accounting for *contingencies*."

How much "contingencies" did he need? As from what I showcased he clearly didn't expect or want him to meet Obito. Therefore no MS. No EMS. Therefore no need for a crow. He clearly wanted Sasuke to, "?

How much "contingencies" did he need....When he clearly wasn't expecting . So you think he planned Sasuke passing out, and as far as we know, not being saved by Obito? So part of Itachi's "contingency" plan was for Naruto and company to save him? How did he know Naruto and company would even know his location?Oh that's right? Itachi just knew Sasuke would be able to "SURVIVE" because he's clearly "OMNISCIENT",and that's how it always turned out. Either way  statement is looking rather suspect. I told you before Itachi's character was a mess. And I wasn't being cruel or hating. I was simply TAKING TO ACCOUNT ALL THE "CONTINGENCIES" Itachi has taken in regards to EVERYTHING SASUKE. Bottom line he ain't PERFECT. The first thing he says to Naruto after the Nagato battle is the following, "" Where did you he learned that from? Trick question..""

So again @DeathTheKid am I "butthurt" or do I simply know the character better than you. Those are all FACTS, AS I HARDLY PROVIDED ANY OPINION AT ALL.

(NOTE I QUOTED IT DIRECTLY, SO BE OFFENDED BY THE SHUTOUTS)

@Mad Scientist, you think I didn't take into account your "Contingencies"

LOL....I'm fucking Itachi Iphr0z3nI


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I already addressed this Mr.
> 
> 
> Pardon me. But I'm an old school. It's give in take. If you ask me a question, and I answered it. It's common courtesy for you to do he same.
> ...


I've reported you for copying and pasting this spam. 

I've addressed most of this and it's common courtesy to tailor a response to someone rather than copying and pasting a Wall Style: Chunk of Text no jutsu. 

Furthermore, it's not reasonable to expect a fast response to so many points. Alas, I did respond to your points and adequately refuted it with canon facts.

Reactions: Like 2


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> I've reported you for copying and pasting this spam.


Did you even read it? And here I thought we were having a good conversation? It's not my fault you didn't read EVERYTHING, AND ESSENTIALLY WASTED YOUR TIME.



> I've addressed most of this and it's common courtesy to tailor a response to someone rather than copying and pasting a Wall Style: Chunk of Text no jutsu.


No you didn't. How? When I know you did even look at not once, but twice.

IF YOU DID, YOU'D LITERALLY WOULDN'T HAVE POSTED THE VERY SAME PANEL I'M ADDRESSING.


And look at the "TRASH ASS RESPONSE" you gave me. You thought you were being ole so "CLEVER", but you essentially just MADE YOURSELF LOOK THE FOOL. And now you was to cry to the mods for simply being bested?



> Furthermore, it's not reasonable to expect a fast response to so many points. Alas, I did respond to your points and adequately refuted it with canon facts.


A response, is not a response simply because his hit the "post reply button"

You have to essentially UPDATE YOUR "RESUME" if I ALREADY WENT OUT OF MY WAY TO REFUTE THE VERY PAGE YOU CITED. And I did enough reading of your response to know you DIDN'T DEBUNK THEM, YOU MERELY "RESORTED TO WHAT I CALL KIDS STUFF"  You think something is contradicted simply because you say so? And you think post pictures of laughing faces, and other childish stuff, is adequate when I showcased to you nothing but the UP MOST RESPECT. By actually HAVING a "WHY" behind my accusation. I didn't come at you funny. And I wasn't trying to turn this into a contest of "Jokes"(To be honest, I do not even know how to do that stuff. So the nerve...The nerve of you attempting to report me for simply being "EFFICIENT" in my posting.
I was accused earlier of "Not giving a direct answer" so I did, I listened. I adjusted.


(As I said before people "Don't go chasing waterfalls, please "STICK TO FAMILIAR ASPECTS OF ITACHI'S CHARACTER THAT YOU WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE," that you used to.(Deal How)


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## Santoryu (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI Please change the username


It's even worse than wooly's


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## AxelKross (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Blah blah blah blah blah blah here i the great Iphsfdf show you something that is absolutely meaningless because i love to go on about LONG tirades about nothing, you better watch out DeathThe*KID*, and I am not Kidding (Like you are, as your name is death the kid indicating that blah blah blah


seriously i deadass compiled ur posts on this Page alone its well over 4000 words,

u should try writing novels man there ur fiction actually has merit.


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## AxelKross (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nIsdfgsdf blah blah blah said:


> How much "contingencies" did he need....When he clearly wasn't expecting . So you think he planned Sasuke passing out, and as far as we know, not being saved by Obito? So part of Itachi's "contingency" plan was for Naruto and company to save him? How did he know Naruto and company would even know his location?Oh that's right? Itachi just knew Sasuke would be able to "SURVIVE" because he's clearly "OMNISCIENT",and that's how it always turned out. Either way  statement is looking rather suspect. I told you before Itachi's character was a mess. And I wasn't being cruel or hating. I was simply TAKING TO ACCOUNT ALL THE "CONTINGENCIES" Itachi has taken in regards to EVERYTHING SASUKE. Bottom line he ain't PERFECT. The first thing he says to Naruto after the Nagato battle is the following, "" Where did you he learned that from? Trick question..""





What you're actually saying said:


> He was't expecting to die right next to sasuke exhausted. So you think he planned Sasuke passing out and not being saved by Obito? Did he plan to have naruto save him? How would he even know? Actually he couldnt have know as he is not omniscient. He made mistakes he said not to make



See?


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> IpHr0z3nI Please change the username
> 
> 
> It's even worse than wooly's


Well this is awfully "petty"

You do know I used this for everything X-box Live account, PSN-Account, etc. 
It was an Idea given to me long ago by a friend.(And my considering I join this forum back 2007, that's a very, very long time ago) So while I respect your opinion. Wouldn't changing my using name be essentially like me making a you know, "New account" Why should I care what my user name is...Considering....We communicate with others on a MESSAGE BOARD, THREW WORDS, AND WORDS, ALONE.


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## Santoryu (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Well this is awfully "petty"
> 
> You do know I used this for everything X-box Live account, PSN-Account, etc.
> It was an Idea given to me long ago by a friend.(And my considering I join this forum back 2007, that's a very, very long time ago) So while I respect your opinion. Wouldn't changing my using name be essentially like me making a you know, "New account" Why should I care what my user name is...Considering....We communicate with others on a MESSAGE BOARD, THREW WORDS, AND WORDS, ALONE.



it'd make everyone's lives easier, including yours. It was more of a friendly suggestion if anything. But I suppose if you use it for everything it might be a bit of a hassle.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

DeathTheKid said:


> seriously i deadass compiled ur posts on this Page alone its well over 4000 words,
> 
> u should try writing novels man there ur fiction actually has merit.


A DeathTheKid you haven't even proven to me that you even understood what I was addressing. Because I damn sure didn't know what you was talking about. You can't merely "RESPOND" for the sake of "Proven you know how to his the "Post Reply Button".... And did you even listen to what I said earlier? Because I wasn't throwing any shade. I actually requested for to teach me how to post PANEL, as maybe that'd be easier for you, WHO HASN'T SHOWN YET, THAT THEY EVEN CARE ABOUT READING, TO READ. 

As I said before @DeathTheKid  I don't know what you want me to do. I reply in detail you dismiss it. If I don't do that, you accuse me of well "THIS" I LITERALLY CAN'T WIN FOR LOSING WITH YOU.


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## AxelKross (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> A DeathTheKid you haven't even proven to me that you even understood what I was addressing.


You dont think itachi planned for everything during the fight.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Because I damn sure didn't know what you was talking about.


Im saying he did because its canon


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Because I wasn't throwing any shade. I actually requested for to teach me how to post PANEL, as maybe that'd be easier for you


Get the image link, press the picture icon around............^Here^, post the link in the box


IpHr0z3nI said:


> WHO HASN'T SHOWN YET, THAT THEY EVEN CARE ABOUT READING, TO READ.


I like reading but you're going on too many tangents for anyone to really follow if u Look at ppls responses to u, im being kind cus i was kinda trolling before ur main points are lost in ur triades, at least here


IpHr0z3nI said:


> As I said before @DeathTheKid I don't know what you want me to do. I reply in detail you dismiss it. If I don't do that, you accuse me of well "THIS" I LITERALLY CAN'T WIN FOR LOSING WITH YOU.


I even gave u an example lmao 

Cant find it? lemme help


*Spoiler*: __ 



*UP*


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## AxelKross (Jul 9, 2019)

Also u dont know more about itachi than me, dont even kid urself kid.

whats his favourite ice cream flavor?

Dont dont google either


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> it'd make everyone's lives easier, including yours. It was more of a friendly suggestion if anything. But I suppose if you use it for everything it might be a bit of a hassle.


How would it make everyone's life easier? If I don't even know what the the issue is. Is pronunciation? It literally just a fancy way of saying IFrozenI.(Like the movie) And correct me if I ain't right? Are we essentially just our NAMES. I mean we are all anonymous. And thus our names is supposed to represent well...."Not everyone" just...just..."Your Self", I've been here for a while, and I familiar with many, many posters. If they were to change their name? I wouldn't be able to recognize them. As I wouldn't know how to address them. What they like. Who they like. What they bring to the table. Etc. etc.
I don't care much for post count or rep, or anything aesthetically. But I do care about my name because well "That's the only thing of value" to me. So I can't speak for everyone, but I can for myself. How would changing "Iphr0z3nI" be easier for well... "Iphr0z3nI"(I think you are trying to imply something personal, but I won't get into specifics. Considering this is the first time I've seen you. Your name is essentially "The only thing that I know about you" apart for you asking me to change my name. If you were to change your name. How would I be able to recognize you, since everything is essentially tangible: Post count, likes, trophies, all subject to change a the drop of a dime.(Even Avi's and Sigs can change) The only thing consistent is your THE NAME, AND THE NAME ALONE. Better yet since you and "everyone" recognize me as Iphr0z3nI wouldn't that essentially make it harder to standout? I mean you clearly know something about me that I don't know, and that's based on my CURRENT NAME. So why oh why, would I want to CHANGE THAT? And to be quite honest I'm very aware of my strengths, and faults, I'm passionate, a little bit arrogant, and I'm very, very careful to make sure I know what I'm talking about. I associate myself with Uchiha fanbase, and the sig spells out who I rep the hardest. And I can essentially defend myself or opinion. And I try my hardest to imitate the character in my sig... And what was Sasuke say to to his peer when he made his entrance into the war, "" @DeathTheKid  that's how well I understand my favorite character.

I don't know you @Santoryu, and while respect you and your opinion, IF YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE A FIRST IMPRESSION....

"THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT"


----------



## Mad Scientist (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> How would it make everyone's life easier? If I don't even know what the the issue is. Is pronunciation? It literally just a fancy way of saying IFrozenI.(Like the movie) And correct me if I ain't right? Are we essentially just our NAMES. I mean we are all anonymous. And thus our names is supposed to represent well...."Not everyone" just...just..."Your Self", I've been here for a while, and I familiar with many, many posters. If they were to change their name? I wouldn't be able to recognize them. As I wouldn't know how to address them. What they like. Who they like. What they bring to the table. Etc. etc.
> I don't care much for post count or rep, or anything aesthetically. But I do care about my name because well "That's the only thing of value" to me. So I can't speak for everyone, but I can for myself. How would changing "Iphr0z3nI" be easier for well... "Iphr0z3nI"(I think you are trying to imply something personal, but I won't get into specifics. Considering this is the first time I've seen you. Your name is essentially "The only thing that I know about you" apart for you asking me to change my name. If you were to change your name. How would I be able to recognize you, since everything is essentially tangible: Post count, likes, trophies, all subject to change a the drop of a dime.(Even Avi's and Sigs can change) The only thing consistent is your THE NAME, AND THE NAME ALONE. Better yet since you and "everyone" recognize me as Iphr0z3nI wouldn't that essentially make it harder to standout? I mean you clearly know something about me that I don't know, and that's based on my CURRENT NAME. So why oh why, would I want to CHANGE THAT? And to be quite honest I'm very aware of my strengths, and faults, I'm passionate, a little bit arrogant, and I'm very, very careful to make sure I know what I'm talking about. I associate myself with Uchiha fanbase, and the sig spells out who I rep the hardest. And I can essentially defend myself or opinion. And I try my hardest to imitate the character in my sig... And what was Sasuke say to to his peer when he made his entrance into the war, "" @DeathTheKid  that's how well I understand my favorite character.
> 
> I don't know you @Santoryu, and while respect you and your opinion, IF YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE A FIRST IMPRESSION....
> ...


Sometimes an alias is needed. Look at Ryuzaki from Death Note.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> IF YOU DID, YOU'D LITERALLY WOULDN'T HAVE POSTED THE VERY SAME PANEL I'M ADDRESSING.



This is a silly argument. I can post the same panel and point out something you missed or to reinforce a point.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

DeathTheKid said:


> You dont think itachi planned for everything during the fight.


That's surprising...Considering this is the first time you've ever been straight forward with me. Without criticizing me for doing something MY WAY...



> Im saying he did because its canon


And just what is canon? Things that come from he manga, right? What you missed is that I MODIFIED MY POST DOWN TO THE VERY LAST LETTER TO SATISFY YOU! I didn't even bother to give an opinion. The only thing I was listing are details in regards for the panel. I'm not going to give to you all at once. As you showcase to me, time and time again, that posting "Efficiently" by putting more content in a post. Is not going to be acknowledge by you.

"First and foremost . Was Itachi expecting that?" No opinion given just asking a question.

"Why don't you take into account not only , but very same Obito's words ." No opinion, just a suggestion, as I tried to essentially FOLLOW

"IMO Itachi no more calculated everything than that battle than he did . Unless you are arguing Itachi already knew Tsunade would save him." First opinion, but is tied to TO CANON. And I'm essentially asking a rhetoric question.

(Do you get the picture yet, or is that enough..Yes, No, Maybe?)

" Oh, but Obito saved him right? Itachi was sure Obito would....Itachi clearly didn't want Sasuke to even MEET OBITO. As  stated.(That 401 also)" No opinion given just well.... CANON.

"And as proven by Itachi's later , which IMO SHOWCASES JUST HOW WRONG  STATEMENT IS. Itachi literally ask Naruto, "Why didn't Sasuke return the village," which indicates ALTHOUGH HE PLANNED A CONTINGENCY FOR OBITO KNOWING THE TRUTH. He wasn't ."Where is the opinion in that? Am I'm not merely putting two plus two together"

"And had Sasuke simply returned the the village, .(That's 401 again by the way) Sasuke didn't unlock the MS from killing Itachi. Sasuke unlocked the MS because he LEARNED THE  ABOUT .(I told you Itachi's character is a MESS, AND I'M GOING TO PROVE IT) No opinion there buddy JUST CANON?

"But wait Iphr0z3nI the crow, the crow indicates . Then why did he question Naruto for why Sasuke didn't return to the village in the first place? And remember the crow was only to counter act , as they only were triggered to respond to Itachi's eyes.(Do I need to go on, or can you peace together how BULLSHIT,  statement is)(What you fail to realize that it's something that exist beyond just canon. It's why we come to discuss set canon. And that's analyzing set CANON. Kishi isn't always consistent. And I'm telling you as an "ITACHI FAN" that his character isn't consistent. And rather you accept my stance on at least acknowledge "WHAT SOMEONE HAS TO OFFER" "THE FORUM ISN'T JUST YOU @DeathTheKid"  what you failed to acknowledge is, and what you can't seem to comprehend is that I was initially just trying to be MYSELF. But that wasn't good enough for you was it? Moving on

"Long story short Itachi was   TO   HIS VERY OWN WORDS. Ya'll talk about I can't give a straight answers? What the hell is Itachi giving Sasuke at first?(Itachi fans)"(This is the only opinion I've given, but it wasn't BASELESS. It's my interpretation of CANON. And LOOK @ the *BOLD*

I'm giving you ITACHI, I'M GOING BEYOND CANON NOW, I'M PUTTING ON A SHOW
Oh but you didn't like the ITACHI IMPERSONATION NOW DID YOU? You wanted a straightforward answer, but LOL Itachi as a whole isn't STRAIGHT FORWARD.

And just so you know....You didn't exactly quote what I was addressing down to letter. This was what I was addressing..

"He planned out the entire fight, even accounting for contingencies."

I wanted to give you ALL THE CONTINGENCIES. I wanted to lay ALL THE CANON EVIDENCE DOWN ON THE TABLE.

Question Itachi fans? If you regards  AS CANON.  Because the feats don't supported? Because you don't want to accept that? Can you say contradiction?

So @DeathTheKid question? What does it take to please you?

I gave you my opinion as "Iphr0z3nI" you didn't like it.

I try my best to imitate is give you "ITACHI" you don't understand it?

I even gave you example of the typical "ITACHI FAN" mindset. He said that?Oh I don't like not canon. Oh Obito said that about Itachi; (Which is CONTRADICTED AT ALL 
CONTINGENCIES)(But Itachi never wanted Sasuke to meet?(Meaning no MS, No EMS, etc.etc.) Oh I like it, it's canon.

So before I move on HOW MUCH DID I GIVE AN ACTUAL OPINION? I stuck to canon, I tried my hardest to not elaborate on anything...And if you I gave you a very, very straight forward answer. Without, as Itachi said himself, ""

So let me add this all up....Because I'm sure Mr. Kid you won't acknowledge it in pieces either. I'm giving you more facts about Itachi than you are giving me. Doesn't that imply I know more? And if I know more doesn't that make me an even better "Itachi fan" than yourself? NO, NOT BETTER. DIFFERENT."Am I'm bringing something to the table in regards to Itachi that you aren't doing"



> Get the image link, press the picture icon around............^Here^, post the link in the box


But I've been doing something similar, and Sometimes it works. Sometimes it don't.(But I'm glad you finally listen to me at least here....THANKS



> I like reading but you're going on too many tangents for anyone to really follow if u Look at ppls responses to u, im being kind cus i was kinda trolling before ur main points are lost in ur triades, at least here


But that's Itachi....When comes to EVERYTHING Sasuke. Which why I arbitrated FIRST FOREMOST TO READ 590. The  Which essentially questions any and all Itachi's actions and decisions.

And what what was I addressing.

"He planned out the entire fight, even accounting for contingencies."

And if can't follow my tangents then I now understand why you can't "Acknowledge some aspects of Itachi's character"

But I'm not trying to downplay Itachi. My weakness. Is that I don't make threads. Therefore I rely on others to do that. And I'm simply tired of the Itachi power discussion. But I already understand why other threads regarding aspects of Itachi is not created. Because Itachi fans DON'T SHOW UP TO THOSE. That's my only BEEF WITH,QUOTE ON QUOTE, ITACHI FANS. They either don't, don't show, or don't care, about "Everything that's associated with ITACHI's Hoo...."



> I even gave u an example lmao


You did.... Then excuse me. I couldn't be "Iphr0z3nI" while also trying to be "DeaththeKid"

But I believe this is essentially check mate. And not based on any contingencies

"Question Itachi fans? If you regards  AS CANON.  Because the feats don't supported? Because you don't want to accept that? Can you say contradiction?"

I think I now see how Jiraiya fans feel...The Itachi fandom is probably by far the largest....But as I proved IN THIS THREAD, THEY AREN'T NECESSARY MOST "CONSISTENT"

And I think I proved to you and OTHERS....That "IpHr0z3nI" BRINGS SOMETHING TO THE TABLE, TOO.





> Cant find it? lemme help
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


This tactic doesn't work against me. As the purpose is to draw attention. I DO THAT BETTER. Make Joke out out of something. I don't believe anything I said is in anybodies sigs...Because I justify EVERYTHING. But you kept me from doing that.

Since you taught me something, I'm going to give something that comes from experience. You got to learn follow before you can TEACH. How did coming at you, using your "METHOD" ,get me any closer to understanding my position? What I posted isn't rocket science. I simply utilized ITACHI'S WORDS, to counter act WORDS CITED BY OTHERS REGARDING ITACHI. Itachi had to humble himself. He preached that to . What I posted isn't rocket science. Itachi wanted to control Sasuke, but he didn't comprehend: That everyone from Oro, to Naruto, to Kakashi, to Kabuto, to Obito, to finally Madara.(Wanted "Guide" Sasuke at some point)
_
Sigh _This was fun, too fun....


----------



## Mad Scientist (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> That's surprising...Considering this is the first time you've ever been straight forward with me. Without criticizing me for doing something MY WAY...
> 
> 
> And just what is canon? Things that come from he manga, right? What you missed is that I MODIFIED MY POST DOWN TO THE VERY LAST LETTER TO SATISFY YOU! I didn't even bother to give an opinion. The only thing I was listing are details in regards for the panel. I'm not going to give to you all at once. As you showcase to me, time and time again, that posting "Efficiently" by putting more content in a post. Is not going to be acknowledge by you.
> ...


It's difficult to follow what you're saying because you make many words big and just type a wall of text. You're going to be wasting your time and you're also overlooking things. For example, you said:



> "First and foremost [LINKHL]445801[/LINKHL]. Was Itachi expecting that?" No opinion given just asking a question. "Why don't you take into account not only , but very same Obito's words ." No opinion, just a suggestion, as I tried to essentially FOLLOW



Not only is this copy and pasted, but there's literally no contradiction in those pages.


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## AxelKross (Jul 9, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> It's difficult to follow what you're saying because you make many words big and just type a wall of text. You're going to be wasting your time and you're also overlooking things. For example, you said:


the way he types is like a drunk guy ranting at u


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Sometimes an alias is needed. Look at Ryuzaki from Death Note.


Lol, but Iphr0z3nI isn't my real name. I know I might seem created, but not in everything. As said before. A Friend gave me this long before I became a member of this forums. And since I started posting in the forums when I began college. This account. The name. Its special.



> This is a silly argument. I can post the same panel and point out something you missed or to reinforce a point.


It's not silly if I'm addressing the very thing you are bringing up

Pardon me but I believe I was addressing.

"He planned out the entire fight, even accounting for contingencies."

I simply was bringing into question the word "contingencies"
And addressed every "contingency" that Itachi did/said. VS. Obito's WORDS.


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Lol, but Iphr0z3nI isn't my real name. I know I might seem created, but not in everything. As said before. A Friend gave me this long before I became a member of this forums. And since I started posting in the forums when I began college. This account. The name. Its special.
> 
> 
> It's not silly if I'm addressing the very thing you are bringing up
> ...


You're addressing things the genius got wrong, but that battle is not one of those things. Denying canon facts makes you look very deluded, Iphrozeni.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> It's difficult to follow what you're saying because you make many words big and just type a wall of text. You're going to be wasting your time and you're also overlooking things. For example, you said:


Then that sounds like a "YOU" problem. Because I can understand my points, your points, their points... Just fine. Maybe the Debating game just ain't for you. Maybe you can't operate at this level. Because I essentially BROKE DOWN EVERY BAR IN THAT POST. And I essentially DEMOLISHED YOURS IN ADVANCE, TO THE POINT THAT WENT TO GO TELL THE MODS. I make words to big to emphasize to you, just what I'm saying.

Long story short Mr. Scientist. You can't teach me Itachi, because I already UNDERSTAND ITACHI MUCH BETTER. I CAN THINK LIKE HIM, AT LEAST IN REGARD TO POSTING. IT'S BECAUSE I KNOW ALMOST EVERYTHING IN REGARDS TO ITACHI. BECAUSE I GREW UP DISCUSSING ITACHI. "With age comes wisdom""With experience comes SKILL"





> Not only is this copy and pasted, but there's literally no contradiction in those pages.


I don't think that's my entire response. So I this point you are essentially "Save Face" posting. Which why you replied with that "HOT GARBAGE" of a response. You can't dismiss an entire paragraph with on word. Haven't ever wrote a report? You can't just comprehend everything, and reply with one word. Unless you either didn't read it. Or simply didn't couldn't accurately debunk it. 

You think this is my first RODEO. Post count don't mean shit. I validated that A LONG TIME AGO. Why you was acting scary, and responding "I ask you first" And when you finally spoke. You simply came at me with one panel. The very panel I dismiss with MORE PANEL. Do you know how CANON WORKS. If you grew up posting here, you'd know Kishi isn't very consistent with anything regarding Itachi. Which is why people don't joke regarding Itachi's power or depiction. They question his decision making. It's quite clear to anyone that has knowledge on Part 1 Itachi and Part 2 Itachi, is that they aren't consistent. Bottom line. Itachi fans merely showcase their knowledge regarding his power. But it was the Sasuke fanbase that did the hard work to understand him. It was the Sasuke fanbase that had to grow to accept him as part of Sasuke's character.


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Then that sounds like a "YOU" problem. Because I can understand my points, your points, their points... Just fine. Maybe the Debating game just ain't for you. Maybe you can't operate at this level. Because I essentially BROKE DOWN EVERY BAR IN THAT POST. And I essentially DEMOLISHED YOURS IN ADVANCE, TO THE POINT THAT WENT TO GO TELL THE MODS. I make words to big to emphasize to you, just what I'm saying.
> 
> Long story short Mr. Scientist. You can't teach me Itachi, because I already UNDERSTAND ITACHI MUCH BETTER. I CAN THINK LIKE HIM, AT LEAST IN REGARD TO POSTING. IT'S BECAUSE I KNOW ALMOST EVERYTHING IN REGARDS TO ITACHI. BECAUSE I GREW UP DISCUSSING ITACHI. "With age comes wisdom""With experience comes SKILL"


That's all opinion.



> I don't think that's my entire response. So I this point you are essentially "Save Face" posting. Which why you replied with that "HOT GARBAGE" of a response. You can't dismiss an entire paragraph with on word. Haven't ever wrote a report? You can't just comprehend everything, and reply with one word. Unless you either didn't read it. Or simply didn't couldn't accurately debunk it.


I've debunked it, and you resorted to copying and pasting, instead of giving the courtesy of tailoring your response.



> You think this is my first RODEO. Post count don't mean shit. I validated that A LONG TIME AGO. Why you was acting scary, and responding "I ask you first" And when you finally spoke. You simply came at me with one panel. The very panel I dismiss with MORE PANEL. Do you know how CANON WORKS. If you grew up posting here, you'd know Kishi isn't very consistent with anything regarding Itachi. Which is why people don't joke regarding Itachi's power or depiction. They question his decision making. It's quite clear to anyone that has knowledge on Part 1 Itachi and Part 2 Itachi, is that they aren't consistent. Bottom line. Itachi fans merely showcase their knowledge regarding his power. But it was the Sasuke fanbase that did the hard work to understand him. It was the Sasuke fanbase that had to grow to accept him as part of Sasuke's character.


It was pretty consistent. You just need to use your head. Now if you communicated in a civil manner, perhaps I'd respond to your posts with more vigour. But you contradict yourself and rush your posts. It's pretty funny though, I'll give you that.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> You're addressing things the genius got wrong, but that battle is not one of those things. Denying canon facts makes you look very deluded, Iphrozeni.


But what did Obito state about the battle "Genius"? ?"And awaken you Mangekyo Sharingan via Death of the Person closes to you"

That wouldn't have happened if Sasuke never met Obito, and learned the truth about Itachi? Which we we know later from Itachi OWN WORD, is that he never wanted to even meet  he even made a "contingency" for it. What don't take to account everything . What . So either Itachi didn't plan EVERYTHING. OBITO IS LYING, OR KISHI FORGOT WHAT HE WROTE. Either way, what Itachi wanted for Sasuke. And what Obito EVERYTHING OBITO STATES Itachi wanted to happened. Would have never happened. Here's a question, and I think it's very, very easy to understand. If Itachi wanted to die, as Sasuke's SWORN ENEMY. And the Mangekyo requires you to kill the person closes to YOU. How would Sasuke obtain the MS without YOU KNOW. LEARNING THE TRUTH ABOUT ITACHI?


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I didn't disrespect shit. I never said he wasn't "High Kage"
> Never questioned his power. I only addressed his EVERYTHING THAT EXIST OUTSIDE OF THAT, AND THAT WAS ONLY AFTER.....(See Below)
> 
> But what usually gets Itachi fans "indicted" is there constant need to PUT DOWN SASUKE, TO HYPE ITACHI.
> ...



That's direspecting Itachi though. Itachi low diff'd his brother while dying of a terminal ilness and still made it look like sasuke won. It's not about putting Sasuke down. Sasuke HIMSELF knew that Itachi was holding back, hence why Itachi died smiling and apologizing to Sasuke.

I skimmed through your posts a bit. But it seems like you are missing the picture. Itachi is a trained shinobi. he kills just like everyone else has. The point of his character, is that he didn't enjoy it, but being an uchiha his parents had high expectations for him and he had to follow through. When it became Uchiha vs Konoha, he made the difficult choice to kill his family, and took the full blame for it. In the chapter 220s, we already see Itachi is stressed about the conflict between the uchiha and Konoha during Sasuke's flashbacks during the battle with Naruto at the VOTE.  Itachi was a grown ass man at age 14 dude.  He couldn't bring himself to kill his brother because of one: plot, and two : because of emotional attachment.  Hiruzen asked him to join the Akatsuki and to keep tabs and make sure that they don't make any direct engagements against Konoha.

He then came to Konoha with Kisame under Nagato's orders, and intentionally failed to capture Naruto and didn't kill a single ninja, simulatenously putting on the persona of a evil murderer( because he wanted to be punished for what he did) while also protecting Konoha. He used Nagato's orders as an opportunity to check on the village after Oro's invasion.  He put Kakashi and  Sasuke in Tsykuyomi because he knew that Tsunade would be sought out. Jiraiya literally now had two reasons to find Tsunade:  one, they needed a new Hokage, and two: she was the only one who could heal Kakashi and Sasuke ( and Rock lee). Itachi was always thinking about the village, as Obito stated.

The fact of the matter is, there will never again be a greater shinobi than Itachi. He sacrificed his lovers, his reputation, family, and ultimately his life to spare his younger brother and delay Pain's invasion on Konoha. True shinobi. Then on the battlefield, he is also completely invincible when wielding Yata and Totsuka. Kishimoto portrayed Itachi, in both character and battle prowess, to be completely invincible. 


And mind you, Even though Itachi was already a grown ass man at age 14. He still grew and learned from his mistakes even in death. As an Edo, he realized that he should have taken a different approach to how handled Sasuke, and that going as far as to using Koto on his brother was wrong, and even went as far as to say that if he had allowed Sasuke deeper into his world instead of double tapping his forhead every time, then perhaps Sasuke could have convinced the uchiha to give up their hatred for the Konoha government. Itachi is a perfect shinobi who also admits when he is wrong.

So yes, Itachi planned out everything and accounted for contingencies. But that doesn't make him omnipotent, and the approach to his goals were flawed, by his own admission, but still would have achieved the same thing. How different would a Sasuke under Koto be from the Sasuke that Naruto beat into submission? Not different at all, they both protect Konoha.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 9, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> That's all opinion.


No it isn't. It's an observation. That unless you can invalidate. Remains TRUE. If said you can't do something. And see you are not doing it. This that's a FACT. For example. If I said you can drive a car. And don't know how to drive a car. That the TRUTH. Unless you can showcase to me it's not an opinion.

What haven't you learn about Iphr0z3nI by now. I always say the purpose of the debate is not to get others to change their opinion. It's do them so dirty that the only thing they do is reply with "ONE NOTE ANSWERS" 

You aren't even willing to debate anymore. So why you even responding.




> I've debunked it, and you resorted to copying and pasting, instead of giving the courtesy of tailoring your response.


You didn't EVEN ADDRESS THE LATEST RESPONSE I POSTED. Which is why I copy and pasted the "LASTED' RESPONSE. If payed attention to it. I justified why I decided to opt for for a DIFFERENT APPROACH. I litteraly said that I was posting on a PHONE. That's how I know you aren't reading. I can follow my points down to the letter. And yours as well. I can break you it down. Break you down. I can't take your heart. Bottom line..."There's LEVEL'S TO THIS SHIT"

(You got to be careful who you put your "POSTING LIFE" against. Not all posters are created equally)

And unless you give me something of value. I don't think there's even need for me to reply. 




> It was pretty consistent. You just need to use your head. Now if you communicated in a civil manner, perhaps I'd respond to your posts with more vigour. But you contradict yourself and rush your posts. It's pretty funny though, I'll give you that.


It was. When I literally saw you dismiss entire paragraphs with ONE WORD. And like I said before. You wasn't didn't TOUCH MY LATEST RESPONSE. AND YOU STILL HAVEN'T. SO WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO PROVE. That you can keep up? You can't. I responding to YOU FROM EVERY ANGLE. I'm countering Obito, with Itachi. I'm countering Kishi... With Kishi..... You can't match that.


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 9, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> But what did Obito state about the battle "Genius"? ?"And awaken you Mangekyo Sharingan via Death of the Person closes to you"
> 
> That wouldn't have happened if Sasuke never met Obito, and learned the truth about Itachi? Which we we know later from Itachi OWN WORD, is that he never wanted to even meet  he even made a "contingency" for it. What don't take to account everything . What . So either Itachi didn't plan EVERYTHING. OBITO IS LYING, OR KISHI FORGOT WHAT HE WROTE. Either way, what Itachi wanted for Sasuke. And what Obito EVERYTHING OBITO STATES Itachi wanted to happened. Would have never happened. Here's a question, and I think it's very, very easy to understand. If Itachi wanted to die, as Sasuke's SWORN ENEMY. And the Mangekyo requires you to kill the person closes to YOU. How would Sasuke obtain the MS without YOU KNOW. LEARNING THE TRUTH ABOUT ITACHI?


You claim it wouldn't have happened if he didn't meet Tobi, yet just shortly after when Sasuke was back on his feet and had cried, he was shown to have the Mangekyo Sharingan awakened (i.e. hardly any time had passed, and he simply went through a period of grief - same thing would have happened sooner or later). It's a known fact that heavily emotional events help awaken the Mangekyo Sharingan (and Sasuke had already been through a lot, meaning he was close) - that's why Itachi made sure Sasuke killed him, to truly cause its awakening. Regardless of whether or not he met and learned the full truth from Tobi, he would have awakened it sooner or later anyway because he not only had the emotional impact, but also the Amaterasu implant. No matter who he next fought, at some point he would have just went somewhat berserk (like he did, twice) and then it would have awakened, if not before. If you think that's illogical, feel free to explain why.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> No it isn't. It's an observation. That unless you can invalidate. Remains TRUE. If said you can't do something. And see you are not doing it. This that's a FACT. For example. If I said you can drive a car. And don't know how to drive a car. That the TRUTH. Unless you can showcase to me it's not an opinion.
> 
> What haven't you learn about Iphr0z3nI by now. I always say the purpose of the debate is not to get others to change their opinion. It's do them so dirty that the only thing they do is reply with "ONE NOTE ANSWERS"
> 
> ...


That's literally all opinion. You deserve no respect for your verbose post.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 10, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> That's direspecting Itachi though. Itachi low diff'd his brother while dying of a terminal ilness and still made it look like sasuke won. It's not about putting Sasuke down. Sasuke HIMSELF knew that Itachi was holding back, hence why Itachi died smiling and apologizing to Sasuke.


How, that's not disrespecting Itachi. How can I disrespect what Itachi . What you are understanding is that Itachi and Sasuke characters are BOO'D UP. Always have been. It just that the Sasuke fanbase has learned for YEARS OF EXPERIENCE, that the Itachi fans will never  acknowledge the ROLE SASUKE PLAYS WITH HIS CHARACTER.(But if the Sasuke fanbase wanted to, they'd demolish Itachi fans, in regards to Itachi. WE WERE, IS, AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN YOUR BEST POSTERS. Don't believe me? LET ME SHOW YOU!)

And what are you trying to address ThirRidoku, I'm Tired. I have a Life outside of Naruto Forums. I already addressed the issue regarding . And frankly considering that you are essentially showcasing that you do not respect Itachi's wishes, and accept  FACT. So who is disrespecting who? . So please don't think your "Itachi fanfic" out of this. We understand Itachi could have beaten Sasuke, and we accept this. The only thing Sasuke fans want Itachi fans to know....IS HE WASN'T PERFECT WHEN IT CAME TO HIM. )



> I skimmed through your posts a bit. But it seems like you are missing the picture. Itachi is a trained shinobi. he kills just like everyone else has. The point of his character, is that he didn't enjoy it, but being an uchiha his parents had high expectations for him and he had to follow through. When it became Uchiha vs Konoha, he made the difficult choice to kill his family, and took the full blame for it. In the chapter 220s, we already see Itachi is stressed about the conflict between the uchiha and Konoha during Sasuke's flashbacks during the battle with Naruto at the VOTE.  Itachi was a grown ass man at age 14 dude.  He couldn't bring himself to kill his brother because of one: plot, and two : because of emotional attachment.  Hiruzen asked him to join the Akatsuki and to keep tabs and make sure that they don't make any direct engagements against Konoha.


And I knew all this.....You are missing the picture. I'm not attacking Itachi's actions. Even Sasuke never held a grudge against Itachi for what he did. He only wished that Itachi would have DONE WHAT , . .
What don't you get about Sasuke's life? What did he not say in ""? What did Sasuke tell Naruto  to ""(Essentially speaking Naruto "Told Sasuke Oro just wanted his body....And response was as long I can achieve my goal) But that's not the only time he's essentially showcased whether he lived or died. Against Haku.(I don't need to link that)Against Gaara(Don't need to link that) 

And what's sad is that you don't realize that Sasuke, even after he got his revenge. Didn't care much for his life. And just so you know...All that that EFFORT, .(And before you go arbitrating otherwise, THAT'S FROM ITACHI HIMSELF)
And regarding his action as  SHINOBI FOR THE LEAF....Let's see how INTELLIGENT YOU ARE. I'm not going to explain shit. I'm going to let the panel speak for itself. ......... Itachi himself .(And I'm going to elaborate. CAUSE I'M THROWING SHOTS! BUT I'MA STOP AT EVERY BAR IN-BETWEEN)
You Itachi fans love to see Itachi taking command of the situation. Appearing the be the brightest bulb in the room. Fugaku and Mikoto made !

Oh you looking bad now...But you wanted to TEACH SASUKE'S FANS ITACHI, RIGHT? HOW'S THAT LOOKING FOR YOU.



> He then came to Konoha with Kisame under Nagato's orders, and intentionally failed to capture Naruto and didn't kill a single ninja, simulatenously putting on the persona of a evil murderer( because he wanted to be punished for what he did) while also protecting Konoha. He used Nagato's orders as an opportunity to check on the village after Oro's invasion.  He put Kakashi and  Sasuke in Tsykuyomi because he knew that Tsunade would be sought out. Jiraiya literally now had two reasons to find Tsunade:  one, they needed a new Hokage, and two: she was the only one who could heal Kakashi and Sasuke ( and Rock lee). Itachi was always thinking about the village, as Obito stated.


Oh god this is hilarious.  Wow the need to justify Itachi's action for "Itachi fans" knows no bounds. At least "PLAY THE ROLE" as someone who actually knows what their talking about. Itachi knew Tsunade to heal them how? Is there some sort of connection between the two I missed? Considering he wasn't too familiar J-Man and did not care much for Naruto character beyond "Being the host of the nine-tails", how would Itachi possible know that J-man and Naruto would seek out Tsunade. Who wasn't even in the village at the time. And you wounder why I said earlier Itachi fans don't really speak up when Itachi is being called out in regards his character. It's because this is what show up with, LOL. Itachi WAS ALWAYS THINKING ABOUT THE VILLAGE, SAID OBITO? OH YOU, POOR, POOR SOUL. Obito's  and  (What's that "Sasuke meant more to Itachi than the village" Imagine that.) Already addressed this. But in case missed. Sasuke himself ALREADY , .(Itachi in the end...."HIS SWAN SONG" "HIS FINAL WORDS"....."(Don't get me wrong Itachi still cared about the village, but WHILE SASUKE WAS ESSENTIALLY "TESTING THAT SHINOBI HEART OF HIS" I'd must admit as Sasuke fan ITACHI DID HIM BETTER. HE   ! He wanted to know, and his final response left Sasuke ""(So what fairy tail, are you trying to tell me?)



> The fact of the matter is, there will never again be a greater shinobi than Itachi. He sacrificed his lovers, his reputation, family, and ultimately his life to spare his younger brother and delay Pain's invasion on Konoha. True shinobi. Then on the battlefield, he is also completely invincible when wielding Yata and Totsuka. Kishimoto portrayed Itachi, in both character and battle prowess, to be completely invincible.


You do know Boruto exist right....And Just how acknowledge is Naruto right? Itachi HASN'T EVEN BEEN MENTIONED IN THE NEW ERA. But he doesn't need to because !(How you gone respect the character, where the gear, wear the shoes....CONSIDERING ALL I'VE DONE SO FAR. DID IT APPEAR THAT I NEEDED "LESSONS" ON ITACHI'S CHARACTER. 

"Kishimoto portrayed Itachi, in both charter and battle prowess, to be completely invincible"

Tell that to .(And that's why I failed) , again.(I don't think you understand how Sasuke fans see Itachi. We don't hate him. We don't deny his skills as a shinobi. Itachi was essentially almost the PERFECT SHINOBI. The problem is......"He wasn't perfect as a BIG BROTHER"(I fun fact, I am the baby of my family among 6...And I have two OLDER BROTHERS..So I can kinda see Sasuke's Perspective. You know, the very same Sasuke that Itachi's story is TOLD FROM!) Peep Itachi's ...(You can't truly talk "Basketball" if you never "Played it")"No matter how strong you become, don't try to bear the weight by yourself. YOU WILL FAIL!" I wounder who Itachi is using as a reference




> And mind you, Even though Itachi was already a grown ass man at age 14. He still grew and learned from his mistakes even in death. As an Edo, he realized that he should have taken a different approach to how handled Sasuke, and that going as far as to using Koto on his brother was wrong, and even went as far as to say that if he had allowed Sasuke deeper into his world instead of double tapping his forhead every time, then perhaps Sasuke could have convinced the uchiha to give up their hatred for the Konoha government. Itachi is a perfect shinobi who also admits when he is wrong.


Grown ass man, A? Then (I told you before...Examine the scene....This wasn't about power....Fugaku and Mikoto .(Itachi was about that action right, then what's the tear drop FOR?)



> So yes, Itachi planned out everything and accounted for contingencies. But that doesn't make him omnipotent, and the approach to his goals were flawed, by his own admission, but still would have achieved the same thing. How different would a Sasuke under Koto be from the Sasuke that Naruto beat into submission? Not different at all, they both protect Konoha.


Yep that's why he stuck to simply doing what Nagato, Obito.......
So Naruto was originally a "contingency" in Itachi's plan. And I believe the word you are trying to refer to is "Omniscient" Which means "All knowing", and we can see Itachi several things Itachi did simply fail. Pain the destroyed he village. Obito ruined "His contingency". The Naruto accidentally ruined "Itachi's Koto plan" But to make matters worse....Itachi DIED PARTIALLY TO REMOVE ORO'S INFLUENCE ON SASUKE. ?(Kishi essentially shitted on most of Itachi's SHINOBI escapades. The only thing Itachi was partially successful doing is "TAKING CARE OF SASUKE" and we know that wasn't a "SOLO" ACT. But I respect how you finally acknowledging the very part of Itachi's character you tried so hard to ignore up until now....And Naruto didn't do anything.... Let me guess, "She was one of Itachi's "contingencies" too

And I supposed Itachi's dreams for SASUKE ULTIMATELY PLANNED OUT. But in the NEW SERIES, HE HASN'T EVEN BEEN ACKNOWLEDGED.(What's that Sarada? You want to know about your UNCLE ITACHI? Well first you need learn about your dad first. Note: This was a topic of discussion at one point. And I didn't see any Itachi fan I know "SHOW-UP" I wounder why)

What's that I said earlier...."I WAN'T ALL THE SMOKE" 

But I'm not coming from a place of malice. I'm simply showing WHO KNOWS WHAT, ABOUT SET, AND SHOWS UP, SHOW OUT, "SOLO" EVEN....

"WE, WERE, IS, AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN YOUR BEST POSTER"

"DEAL-HOW"


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 10, 2019)

Itachi is much stronger than a Sannin and has respectable performances against DSM Kabuto and Nagato who are both beyond a fair amount of High Kage shinobi.


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## kingjr9000 (Jul 10, 2019)

What the heck happened during the last two pages?


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## Quipchaque (Jul 10, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Itachi is much stronger than a Sannin and has respectable performances against DSM Kabuto and Nagato who are both beyond a fair amount of High Kage shinobi.



No no no no get your facts straight. "jounin level". Not above Sannin and comparable to high kage.

. 
. 
. 
.


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## Santoryu (Jul 10, 2019)

he's not high kage. this is just fan made perception.

he's a top kage with jinjuriki level one shot finger techniques. gotta read the presumed dbs for more clarity and elucidation. zetsu highlights his invincibility. we've already seen him save kcm naruto and bee, and proceed to bamflash nagato with mid difficulty despite having killing intent. we later see him low-dif the edo-tensei creator in kabuto. itachi never lost a fair fight in the manga.


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## Zensuki (Jul 10, 2019)

Hussain said:


> They then go on to talking about Part II/ Shippuden.
> 
> On Shippuden’s/ Part II’s plot - Kobayashi starts off asking about whether there was framework put in place for the direction of Shippuden’s story. Kishimoto replies that because Naruto and his group were so weak as genin in the first part, so he wanted to make them stronger in the second part. This is especially because he introduced the Akatsiki, who are all Jonin level, so he had to make the main cast stronger too. He also used the timeskip as a chance to change their clothes, since he didn’t like the swirl on the arm of Naruto’s jacket, and also his thick collar in Part 1 got in the way of his face in action scenes. So he drew a small collar and dropped the swirl. He also added the headband with the long tails at the back so they would stand out and flutter during action scenes.





kingjr9000 said:


> Isn't that a retcon though?  I remember reading somewhere  where it was mentioned that the akatsuki were a group of ninja who could each kill 20 jonin though.



Fans have Kage level as a power rank it make it easier to differentiate. 
In universe only Kage's get Kage rank, so every other top rank ninja that could kill a Kage is Jounin. 

Anyone knows Akatsuki are Kage level ninjas


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 12, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> ow, that's not disrespecting Itachi. How can I disrespect what Itachi . What you are understanding is that Itachi and Sasuke characters are BOO'D UP. Always have been. It just that the Sasuke fanbase has learned for YEARS OF EXPERIENCE, that the Itachi fans will never acknowledge the ROLE SASUKE PLAYS WITH HIS CHARACTER.(But if the Sasuke fanbase wanted to, they'd demolish Itachi fans, in regards to Itachi. WE WERE, IS, AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN YOUR BEST POSTERS. Don't believe me? LET ME SHOW YOU!)
> 
> And what are you trying to address ThirRidoku, I'm Tired. I have a Life outside of Naruto Forums. I already addressed the issue regarding . And frankly considering that you are essentially showcasing that you do not respect Itachi's wishes, and accept  FACT. So who is disrespecting who? . So please don't think your "Itachi fanfic" out of this. We understand Itachi could have beaten Sasuke, and we accept this. The only thing Sasuke fans want Itachi fans to know....IS HE WASN'T PERFECT WHEN IT CAME TO HIM. )



Okay, never disagreed with this.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> And I knew all this.....You are missing the picture. I'm not attacking Itachi's actions. Even Sasuke never held a grudge against Itachi for what he did. He only wished that Itachi would have DONE WHAT , . .
> What don't you get about Sasuke's life? What did he not say in ""? What did Sasuke tell Naruto  to ""(Essentially speaking Naruto "Told Sasuke Oro just wanted his body....And response was as long I can achieve my goal) But that's not the only time he's essentially showcased whether he lived or died. Against Haku.(I don't need to link that)Against Gaara(Don't need to link that)
> 
> And what's sad is that you don't realize that Sasuke, even after he got his revenge. Didn't care much for his life. And just so you know...All that that EFFORT, .(And before you go arbitrating otherwise, THAT'S FROM ITACHI HIMSELF)
> ...



lol never disagreed with this




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Oh god this is hilarious.  Wow the need to justify Itachi's action for "Itachi fans" knows no bounds. At least "PLAY THE ROLE" as someone who actually knows what their talking about. Itachi knew Tsunade to heal them how? Is there some sort of connection between the two I missed? Considering he wasn't too familiar J-Man and did not care much for Naruto character beyond "Being the host of the nine-tails", how would Itachi possible know that J-man and Naruto would seek out Tsunade. Who wasn't even in the village at the time. And you wounder why I said earlier Itachi fans don't really speak up when Itachi is being called out in regards his character. It's because this is what show up with, LOL. Itachi WAS ALWAYS THINKING ABOUT THE VILLAGE, SAID OBITO? OH YOU, POOR, POOR SOUL. Obito's  and  (What's that "Sasuke meant more to Itachi than the village" Imagine that.) Already addressed this. But in case missed. Sasuke himself ALREADY , .(Itachi in the end...."HIS SWAN SONG" "HIS FINAL WORDS"....."(Don't get me wrong Itachi still cared about the village, but WHILE SASUKE WAS ESSENTIALLY "TESTING THAT SHINOBI HEART OF HIS" I'd must admit as Sasuke fan ITACHI DID HIM BETTER. HE   ! He wanted to know, and his final response left Sasuke ""(So what fairy tail, are you trying to tell me?)



Itachi planned out every single fight in Konoha from start to finish. You are forgetting that Nagato sent him and Kisame with orders to capture Naruto. We know that because Kisame agrees with Itachi when he says Akatsuki sent them. Itachi simply used it as an opportuntity to warn Konoha of Akatsuki, and remind the elders he was still alive.  Itachi outright said that he doesn't want to kill Kurenai and Asuma. And as such, he never did. He put Kakashi and Sasuke in Tsykuyomi to cement Konoha's hatred for him,  while also knowing that Tsunade was a fitting candidate for Hokage after Hiruzen's death.  You are forgetting that Tsunade is a world famous edic, and she was the ONLY person who could heal Tsykuyomi. That is not a coincidence.  Itachi was keeping up an act against Jiraiya. Don't you understand what working undercover is?  Don't you understand that ITachi had Konoha's best interests?



IpHr0z3nI said:


> You do know Boruto exist right....And Just how acknowledge is Naruto right? Itachi HASN'T EVEN BEEN MENTIONED IN THE NEW ERA. But he doesn't need to because !(How you gone respect the character, where the gear, wear the shoes....CONSIDERING ALL I'VE DONE SO FAR. DID IT APPEAR THAT I NEEDED "LESSONS" ON ITACHI'S CHARACTER.
> 
> "Kishimoto portrayed Itachi, in both charter and battle prowess, to be completely invincible"
> 
> Tell that to .(And that's why I failed) , again.(I don't think you understand how Sasuke fans see Itachi. We don't hate him. We don't deny his skills as a shinobi. Itachi was essentially almost the PERFECT SHINOBI. The problem is......"He wasn't perfect as a BIG BROTHER"(I fun fact, I am the baby of my family among 6...And I have two OLDER BROTHERS..So I can kinda see Sasuke's Perspective. You know, the very same Sasuke that Itachi's story is TOLD FROM!) Peep Itachi's ...(You can't truly talk "Basketball" if you never "Played it")"No matter how strong you become, don't try to bear the weight by yourself. YOU WILL FAIL!" I wounder who Itachi is using as a reference




So what if Boruto exists? Itachi is dead and it's unlikely he will be revived again.  And I don't disagree with Itachi admitting his mistakes lol. A perfect shinobi is one of self sacrifice who also learns from his mistakes. That's why Hashirama openly admitted that Itachi was a far better shinobi than Hashirama.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Grown ass man, A? Then (I told you before...Examine the scene....This wasn't about power....Fugaku and Mikoto


Yes, a grown ass man who can think higher than tribalism. He killed his family because they were threatening the safety of the villagers. And lol plz, shedding tears shows he is actually human. Pls don't throw that old school bs if men not being able to cry and show emotions. He was a grown ass man because he made tough decisions and accepted the consequences, while also learning from the experience.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yep that's why he stuck to simply doing what Nagato, Obito.......
> So Naruto was originally a "contingency" in Itachi's plan. And I believe the word you are trying to refer to is "Omniscient" Which means "All knowing", and we can see Itachi several things Itachi did simply fail. Pain the destroyed he village. Obito ruined "His contingency". The Naruto accidentally ruined "Itachi's Koto plan" But to make matters worse....Itachi DIED PARTIALLY TO REMOVE ORO'S INFLUENCE ON SASUKE. ?(Kishi essentially shitted on most of Itachi's SHINOBI escapades. The only thing Itachi was partially successful doing is "TAKING CARE OF SASUKE" and we know that wasn't a "SOLO" ACT. But I respect how you finally acknowledging the very part of Itachi's character you tried so hard to ignore up until now....And Naruto didn't do anything.... Let me guess, "She was one of Itachi's "contingencies" too
> 
> And I supposed Itachi's dreams for SASUKE ULTIMATELY PLANNED OUT. But in the NEW SERIES, HE HASN'T EVEN BEEN ACKNOWLEDGED.(What's that Sarada? You want to know about your UNCLE ITACHI? Well first you need learn about your dad first. Note: This was a topic of discussion at one point. And I didn't see any Itachi fan I know "SHOW-UP" I wounder why)
> ...



Lol don't get it twisted. IT was clearly stated that Itachi loved Sasuke even more than he did Konoha. Pain was not allowed to a lay a finger on Konoha until ITachi died, and guess why he died? because of his love for Sasuke. Itachi already fulfilled his role in the story.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 12, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Okay, never disagreed with this.


Didn't you open up with the following?

" Itachi low diff'd his brother while dying of a terminal ilness and still made it look like sasuke won."

That doesn't sound like you initially agreeing with the manga to me.




> lol never disagreed with this


But this.....

"I skimmed through your posts a bit. But it seems like you are missing the picture. Itachi is a trained shinobi. he kills just like everyone else has. The point of his character, is that he didn't enjoy it, but being an uchiha his parents had high expectations for him and he had to follow through. When it became Uchiha vs Konoha, he made the difficult choice to kill his family, and took the full blame for it. In the chapter 220s, we already see Itachi is stressed about the conflict between the uchiha and Konoha during Sasuke's flashbacks during the battle with Naruto at the VOTE. Itachi was a grown ass man at age 14 dude. He couldn't bring himself to kill his brother because of one: plot, and two : because of emotional attachment. Hiruzen asked him to join the Akatsuki and to keep tabs and make sure that they don't make any direct engagements against Konoha."

doesn't address the ITACHI'S CHARACTER AT ALL. You are simply giving me his action. NOT THE CHARACTER. There's a difference. And I think rather that dismissing why I cited with a, "I never disagreed with this" You'd note how allot of what I posted CONFLICTS WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT. For example "Itachi was a grown ass man at the age 14 dude," yeah I think I invalidated that with actual panel.



> Itachi planned out every single fight in Konoha from start to finish. You are forgetting that Nagato sent him and Kisame with orders to capture Naruto. We know that because Kisame agrees with Itachi when he says Akatsuki sent them. Itachi simply used it as an opportuntity to warn Konoha of Akatsuki, and remind the elders he was still alive.  Itachi outright said that he doesn't want to kill Kurenai and Asuma. And as such, he never did. He put Kakashi and Sasuke in Tsykuyomi to cement Konoha's hatred for him,  *while also knowing that Tsunade was a fitting candidate for Hokage after Hiruzen's death.  You are forgetting that Tsunade is a world famous edic, and she was the ONLY person who could heal Tsykuyomi. That is not a coincidence.  Itachi was keeping up an act against Jiraiya. Don't you understand what working undercover is?  Don't you understand that ITachi had Konoha's best interests?*


_Sigh_
Itachi planned out every single fight in Konoha from start to finish? Yeah, I don't think Itachi knew anything about Kakashi, Kurenai, Asuma, or Gai.(Outside of probably reputation) I don't think Itachi knew to much about Jiraiya.(Again, outside of repetition) And I don't get were you are coming up with, "You are forgetting that Nagato sent him and Kisame with orders to capture Naruto." The only hint we have on why they were in Konoha was , which is ambiguous. And this, "We know that because Kisame agrees with Itachi when he says Akatsuki sent them." is baseless. Not only because of  . But we don't even need that. we just merely need apply a little common sense. Considering what we know about the Akatsuki in part 2, and considering the tailed beast have be sealed in SOMEWHAT order.(With the nine tails being last) Considering they've yet to capture the 1 tails. Considering if Nagato sent them....Failing to capture the nine tails would not be an option. It's quite clear Itachi came the village with Kisame on his OWN ACCORD.

And this fits because the only thing he accomplish TWO THINGS. Reminding Danzo and the Elders that he still alive, and rekindling Sasuke's desire for revenge. As for the rest of your stuff I've already provided panel of everything Itachi stated regarding Kurenai and Asuma.(He says nothing about not killing them. . . Nothing there implies not killing them. But then I don't get what you are trying to prove. Are you trying to arbitrate to me that Itachi is some pacifist? He's NOT. He killed his clan. He assisted the Akatsuki in the ritual sealing, which would then kill the Jinchuriki. How do you even composed the *BOLD, *You can't VALIDATE NONE OF THAT. How does Itachi know who was going to be the FIFTH HOKAGE, when Tsunade didn't even want the JOB INITIALLY. And Jiraiya turned it down before that. You can't just hit the "Post Reply" with a nonsense merely to safe face. Because when I read IT. And I SEE THINGS YOU CAN'T VALIDATE WITH ACTUAL CANON. It's a waist of my time and yours, BECAUSE NOT ONLY DO I NOT REQUIRE ANY EVIDENCE TO DEBUNK IT. It just sounds DUMB. It sounds like you are trying to argue Itachi is "Omniscient," when I already proved that HE IS NOT. How many of his plans have actually succeeded down to the letter? Itachi flat out stated. . So why oh why,do you have him relying on others, when he flat out stated he didn't.(I don't know why you are so hell bent on making it seems like Itachi's perfect, when he says himself he wasn't. He took his chances, just like Sasuke did. Sasuke went into situation DOZENS OF TIMES, without a plan of action. Some times he succeeded. Sometimes he failed miserably. But you don't see Sasuke's fans trying to pass off him as a saint; although he did went out of way at at the beginning of part two to avoid killing others. Nor do you see us trying to make him out to be "Omniscient".




> So what if Boruto exists? Itachi is dead and it's unlikely he will be revived again.  And I don't disagree with Itachi admitting his mistakes lol. *A perfect shinobi is one of self sacrifice who also learns from his mistakes*. That's why Hashirama openly admitted that Itachi was a far better shinobi than Hashirama.


Oh Third, it isn't just Itachi is dead and is unlikely to ever be revived again; it's that they've treated as a character that never existed period. Boruto knows about his Minato. He's damn sure familiar with Hinata's side of the family. Yet Itachi, who played an even bigger role to Sasuke oppose to Naruto and any other character, isn't even mentioned. Some are predicting: Itachi would be brought when the times comes for Sarada to be Hokage, but considering how even Sasuke opted to keep it a secret only shared by Naruto and Kakashi, as per Itachi's wishes I don't see how.

And if you understand the BOLD, then why are you trying so hard to make Itachi seems "all knowing"? Why are trying to downplay his action with, "Itachi knew Tsunade was a medic and could heal Tsukuyomi...etc. etc." When the only way WE AS THE READERS KNEW THAT IS BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THE STORY WAS WRITTEN.(Itachi ain't Kishi Mr. Third) And why Hashirama openly admitted that Itachi was a far better shinobi than he was is probably . He also  on that, but I'm not going to quote it.....




> Yes, a grown ass man who can think higher than tribalism. He killed his family because they were threatening the safety of the villagers. And lol plz, shedding tears shows he is actually human. Pls don't throw that old school bs if men not being able to cry and show emotions. He was a grown ass man because he made tough decisions and accepted the consequences, while also learning from the experience.


Yet the page calls him a CHILD.(In that situation he WAS THE CHILD. Fugaku had to not only reassure him, but before that Mikoto indicated: that NO MATTER HOW CLEVER ITACHI THOUGHT HE WAS BEING, they understood) He killed his family because probably/mainly do to  .(Notice Danzou's words. He emphasized a multiple occasion SAVING YOUR LITTLE BROTHER.) And that "LITTLE BROTHER" when then in turn and threaten the village as well. The very same reason why Itachi had to kill all other Uchihas except for Sasuke.(Yet he wasn't about that ACTION WHEN IT COMES TO SASUKE) How you going to be to be this bad ass self sacrificing shinobi and willing to KILL EVEN FAMILIAL BONDS in one situation, but not be about that life when the SAME SITUATION ESSENTIALLY EMERGES, but on a much smaller scale? Sasuke was no longer innocent. And he was certainly a threat to village, but Itachi didn't keep that same energy.

And I didn't throw anything at you Mr. Third, I just pointed out the obvious. Itachi was a child because not only was he depicted THAT WAY. But it's implied that Danzo sorta finessed him. Just like Sasuke was depicted as the child , , ,  .....Leading up to ....(That is when Itachi turned into Fugaku and Mikoto.) Itachi's parents/Uchiha clan didn't make a move did they? . The manga implies at least Fugaku already had  even before  scene. .(And the anime, which takes some aspects from the novel, but not down the letter. Showcases Fugaku didn't do all that he could to protect the clan from Itachi/Konoha.) In a way you can sorta say Fugaku and Mikoto chose Itachi and Sasuke, over the clan. And in that final scene Itachi HIMSELF finally SHOWCASED he had chosen Sasuke over the village if it were to come to that.(Itachi died with regrets...Questioning his actions....Questioning those "tough" decisions....But he didn't truly learn anything until he learned to face Sasuke with the truth and let him MAKE HIS OWN DECISIONS(The one thing Itachi's parents got right the first time, and Itachi didn't)...You be a an adult in some ways, and still have a child in others.



> Lol don't get it twisted. IT was clearly stated that Itachi loved Sasuke even more than he did Konoha. Pain was not allowed to a lay a finger on Konoha until ITachi died, and guess why he died? because of his love for Sasuke. Itachi already fulfilled his role in the story.


Lol, Itachi didn't fulfill shit the first time....As kinda took the easy way out. That's why he was brought back as an Edo. So he can MAN UP, and learn to face the mistakes he's made in life. And what was Itachi's role..... Yeah the fourth shinobi War not only threatened Konoha, but was Started by the Uchiha's. So the Uchiha massacre was essentially meaningless. The only one of Itachi's role that was not render moot by Kishi was his role as a Big Brother. Which why Kishi chose to end his character .....


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## Serene Grace (Jul 12, 2019)

He trashed Sasuke and then went on to defeat Orochimaru

That’s a high Kage feat


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## Trojan (Jul 12, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> He trashed Sasuke and then went on to defeat Orochimaru
> 
> That’s a high Kage feat


he died.


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## Kisame (Jul 12, 2019)

Hussain said:


> he died.


He planned to die.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 13, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> idn't you open up with the following?
> 
> " Itachi low diff'd his brother while dying of a terminal ilness and still made it look like sasuke won."
> 
> That doesn't sound like you initially agreeing with the manga to me.



Yes that part is true. But the other stuff you said I didn't disagree with.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> doesn't address the ITACHI'S CHARACTER AT ALL. You are simply giving me his action. NOT THE CHARACTER. There's a difference. And I think rather that dismissing why I cited with a, "I never disagreed with this" You'd note how allot of what I posted CONFLICTS WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT. For example "Itachi was a grown ass man at the age 14 dude," yeah I think I invalidated that with actual panel.



Yes he was  a grown man lol. Crying =/= being a baby. He made adult decisions and accepted the consequences.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Itachi planned out every single fight in Konoha from start to finish? Yeah, I don't think Itachi knew anything about Kakashi, Kurenai, Asuma, or Gai.(Outside of probably reputation) I don't think Itachi knew to much about Jiraiya.(Again, outside of repetition) And I don't get were you are coming up with, "You are forgetting that Nagato sent him and Kisame with orders to capture Naruto." The only hint we have on why they were in Konoha was , which is ambiguous. And this, "We know that because Kisame agrees with Itachi when he says Akatsuki sent them." is baseless. Not only because of  . But we don't even need that. we just merely need apply a little common sense. Considering what we know about the Akatsuki in part 2, and considering the tailed beast have be sealed in SOMEWHAT order.(With the nine tails being last) Considering they've yet to capture the 1 tails. Considering if Nagato sent them....Failing to capture the nine tails would not be an option. It's quite clear Itachi came the village with Kisame on his OWN ACCORD.



Not true. Itachi told Kakashi and Jiraiya that Itachi and Kisame were sent by the upper echeleons of the Akatsuki, and Kisame didn't disagree. Nagato is also aware of this because in Part 2 he mentions how Itachi snuck into Konoha, during the Pain invasion. Itachi used the opportunity as an excuse to warn the elders though. Capturing naruto and putting him in genjutsu for 3 years would have been fine, while they caught the other bijuu.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> And this fits because the only thing he accomplish TWO THINGS. Reminding Danzo and the Elders that he still alive, and rekindling Sasuke's desire for revenge. As for the rest of your stuff I've already provided panel of everything Itachi stated regarding Kurenai and Asuma.(He says nothing about not killing them. . . Nothing there implies not killing them. But then I don't get what you are trying to prove. Are you trying to arbitrate to me that Itachi is some pacifist? He's NOT. He killed his clan. He assisted the Akatsuki in the ritual sealing, which would then kill the Jinchuriki. How do you even composed the *BOLD, *You can't VALIDATE NONE OF THAT. How does Itachi know who was going to be the FIFTH HOKAGE, when Tsunade didn't even want the JOB INITIALLY. And Jiraiya turned it down before that. You can't just hit the "Post Reply" with a nonsense merely to safe face. Because when I read IT. And I SEE THINGS YOU CAN'T VALIDATE WITH ACTUAL CANON. It's a waist of my time and yours, BECAUSE NOT ONLY DO I NOT REQUIRE ANY EVIDENCE TO DEBUNK IT. It just sounds DUMB. It sounds like you are trying to argue Itachi is "Omniscient," when I already proved that HE IS NOT. How many of his plans have actually succeeded down to the letter? Itachi flat out stated. . So why oh why,do you have him relying on others, when he flat out stated he didn't.(I don't know why you are so hell bent on making it seems like Itachi's perfect, when he says himself he wasn't. He took his chances, just like Sasuke did. Sasuke went into situation DOZENS OF TIMES, without a plan of action. Some times he succeeded. Sometimes he failed miserably. But you don't see Sasuke's fans trying to pass off him as a saint; although he did went out of way at at the beginning of part two to avoid killing others. Nor do you see us trying to make him out to be "Omniscient".



Lol Itachi was a pacifist. But  Not acting means his clan would have killed villagers,.  He was a man that thought beyond his own personal needs and did what needed to be done. NEver said Itachi is omniscient bud. It's not a coincidence that the village needed a hokage and said Hokage is the ONLY person that can heal Tsykuyomi in the entire world rofl. He assisted Akatsuki in ritual sealing? sure, because he had a role to play. Like I said, he was working undercover. And he WANTED to be seen as a traitor and be PUNISHED for whar he did. He didn't seal Shukaku from Gaara out of malice. He was playing his part, keep Akatsuki from using full engagements against Konoha, in exchance for helping bijuu sealing but also for making his reputation worse so that It's fulfilling for Sasuke when Sasuke kills him.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yet the page calls him a CHILD.(In that situation he WAS THE CHILD. Fugaku had to not only reassure him, but before that Mikoto indicated: that NO MATTER HOW CLEVER ITACHI THOUGHT HE WAS BEING, they understood) He killed his family because probably/mainly do to  .(Notice Danzou's words. He emphasized a multiple occasion SAVING YOUR LITTLE BROTHER.) And that "LITTLE BROTHER" when then in turn and threaten the village as well. The very same reason why Itachi had to kill all other Uchihas except for Sasuke.(Yet he wasn't about that ACTION WHEN IT COMES TO SASUKE) How you going to be to be this bad ass self sacrificing shinobi and willing to KILL EVEN FAMILIAL BONDS in one situation, but not be about that life when the SAME SITUATION ESSENTIALLY EMERGES, but on a much smaller scale? Sasuke was no longer innocent. And he was certainly a threat to village, but Itachi didn't keep that same energy.



Lol yes because he was only 14 years old bruh. I said he was already a grown ass man despite being a child of 14 years.
Sasuke was kept alive for plot purposes.  And Danzo also told Itachi that he could spare him, as a gesture for what he was asking Itachi to do. That part was a retcon, because Danzo and Sasuke said previously that Itachi chose to spare his younger brother but was supposed to kill him.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Lol, Itachi didn't fulfill shit the first time....As kinda took the easy way out. That's why he was brought back as an Edo. So he can MAN UP, and learn to face the mistakes he's made in life. And what was Itachi's role..... Yeah the fourth shinobi War not only threatened Konoha, but was Started by the Uchiha's. So the Uchiha massacre was essentially meaningless. The only one of Itachi's role that was not render moot by Kishi was his role as a Big Brother. Which why Kishi chose to end his character ..



Don't disagree. But Itachi manned up when he killed his clan. He then MANNED UP again as an Edo.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 13, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Yes that part is true. But the other stuff you said I didn't disagree with.


But it's in those statements lies the problem. You clearly don't want to accept what ITACHI himself wanted to be seen as.

But I'm not going to explain this out you in great detail hear, as I'm pretty sure I'll have plenty of opportunity to get you to understand Itachi's character.  






> Yes he was  a grown man lol. Crying =/= being a baby. He made adult decisions and accepted the consequences.


A. In the world of shinboi, what did we learn from the Zabuza arc? Shinobi's are Tools. And what did Sakura say about a shinobi saying 25? "....."

That scene was significant because it was the only other time we've seen Itachi crying....The first time ....(Which was scene of the night from SASUKE'S PERSPECTIVE) But the 590 rendition of the manga even trumps that because not only did it show that Itachi wasn't necessarily "FULL GROWN" in the eyes of the shinobi world. It also DEPICTS, LET ME REITERATE DEPICTS  to be the only "" in the room.

So what aspect of the actual MANGA are you using Mr. "Third" to define Itachi as "GROWN"

We seen Itachi few minutes after the scene and he seem like he was well adjusted by the time Sasuke came into the room. And you know who was depicted to be the child in that room then? ? ....again.

And I'm afraid your definition of adult doesn't pan out to the Naruto verse or ours. Kids make adult decisions everyday, but unless they are legally a certain age, 18, they are considered a child. And the consequences are sometimes tailed to that. Which is why we distinguish trial as a child, or adult.

But it's not only tears Mr. Third. The flashback showcases Itachi's decision to murder the clan may have been carried out by him, but the idea was perpetuated and even being instigated by Danzo.(But I'll touch more on that later)



> Not true. Itachi told Kakashi and Jiraiya that Itachi and Kisame were sent by the upper echeleons of the Akatsuki, and Kisame didn't disagree. Nagato is also aware of this because in Part 2 he mentions how Itachi snuck into Konoha, during the Pain invasion. Itachi used the opportunity as an excuse to warn the elders though. Capturing naruto and putting him in genjutsu for 3 years would have been fine, while they caught the other bijuu.


Then no need to argue Mr. Third, please provide the panel.(In regards to the upper echelons of the Akatsuki sending Itachi and Kisame) And let it speak for itself. Believe it or not, but I'm sure it's quite clear as to who knows what, about both the manga and Itachi's character. You're not even coming with an "A" game. Capturing Naruto and putting him in gejutsu for 3 years? Yeah who, what, when, where, was Itachi at any point showcase to do that? The only person that comes close to performing something similar was Obito and the Mizukage, and even then it's not clear how Obito did it. And even then Mizukage was still allowed to at least appear to be himself.

You didn't even attempt to address most the argument being presented to you. It's a if you either don't remember, or chose to abandon your original points.



> Lol Itachi was a pacifist.


By what definition? You do know it may be Kishi's manga, but he still has to abide by the definition of real life terms, seeing as he's utilizing words which have set definition.

-a person who believes that war and violence are unjustifiable.(Peep the full definition ala the "and violence are unjustifiable" Itachi was not above using violence. So the definition does not HOLD.




> But  Not acting means his clan would have killed villagers,.


There's no evidence to suggest the clan would've done jack. Read Obito's words."" The clan couldn't make a move without Fugaku's orders, and it's quite clear  -  -  -.

As I said before the Uchiha massacre has been told over, and over, and OVER, and the only aspects that has changed is how much in control the   of things, had on the situation.(I could go into more details as the Hokage's themselves each place the majority on the blame on the Konoha side things, but that's a different argument for a different day)

Even the anime, which isn't considered canon but it helps in this situation, retelling of the Itachi novel. Demonstrates that Fugaku himself didn't need Itachi's "power" to act. It showcases that he didn't truly believe in the coup either. He was just doing his best as a leader of the clan....To, YOU KNOW, Lead. I don't understand Itachi fans...Are they so tied in the depiction to how one "character" looks that they over look the respective  depiction of an entire "Clan". Which is worse plotting murder or actually committing it? And considering the "Uchiha Leader of the COUP" didn't attempt to do jack shit against Itachi;. Itachi did the very thing HE ACCUSED THE CLAN OF NOT DOING.....

""

The biggest fear of a coup is that it would lead to WAR, right? IS OR IS THAT NOT, AN UNKNOWN?



> He was a man that thought beyond his own personal needs and did what needed to be done. NEver said Itachi is omniscient bud.


You alluded to such...With your, but Itachi knew Tsunade could heal Tsukuyomi. "But your Itachi knew Tsunade would become the fifth Hokage." Do I need to go on? Or do you want to me to start re-quoting your initial arguments outright? 



> It's not a coincidence that the village needed a hokage and said Hokage is the ONLY person that can heal Tsykuyomi in the entire world rofl.


First and foremost reread the arc. Tsunade only became Hokage because Jiraiya initial turned that the Job. And even then it required some magic by Naruto and company.


> He assisted Akatsuki in ritual sealing? sure, because he had a role to play.


But, but, but....Mr. Third Itachi's a PACIFIST 

And not only that, the only reason why the ENTIRE CLAN, MINUS SASUKE, HAD TO BE KILLED IS BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T INNOCENT. But weren't the Jinchuriki that Itachi were assisting in KILLING innocent as well. Itachi was SELFISH. S-E-L-F-I-S-H. He held on particular beliefs sure. But even those beliefs wavered and wasn't consistent. 



> Like I said, he was working undercover. And he WANTED to be seen as a traitor and be PUNISHED for whar he did. He didn't seal Shukaku from Gaara out of malice.


And he didn't kill his clan out of malice either....But what he did to Sasuke was most certainly because deep down at some point he was still "HUMAN"

The only thing I'm trying to do here is apply that side of Itachi's character to his character. As MANY Itachi fans don't see him that aspect. They only choose to acknowledge the SHINOBI part of his character. But in their attempts to do that they are not only disrespecting the character/Kishi.....But they are making Itachi to be one of the worst things you can be in this manga. WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY JUST A TOOL.



> He was playing his part, keep Akatsuki from using full engagements against Konoha, in exchance for helping bijuu sealing but also for making his reputation worse so that It's fulfilling for Sasuke when Sasuke kills him.


Oh I don't think Sasuke needed any extra motivation for killing him. And even before that....Who was he to decide Sasuke's fate? ... 
But let's broaden the discussion beyond manga canon.

Who do you think had the tougher life after the Massacre? Itachi or Sasuke. And before we answer that. Let's kick facts.

Itachi had already had obtained at least the Mangekyo prior to the Uchiha massacre. So the only thing he had to do was play the role of a villain. He already had the power to join the Akatsuki, and be considered one of the upper echelons of the organization. So the only thing he had to do is wait on Sasuke to become strong enough to at least be able "sell the illusion" of revenge.

Sasuke on the other hand didn't have access to the Sharingan. And while it revealed during the flashback that he had unlocked it during the massacre he had lost his ability to use it. He had to learn to adjust to a new life without his parents, the clan, and even Itachi. And while he adjusted over time; He frequently showed indifference to whether he lived or died. His first true friend was Naruto, and even Itachi, which you have forgotten, encouraged him to use that as "Fertilizer" for power. Itachi was trying to teach Sasuke to "," but even that wouldn't have been necessary had Itachi been DAT TRUE SHINOBI, you so preach about in the first place. Not mention Sasuke had to essentially learn the "hard way" that life would move on after the killing of his brother.(Itachi was suffering from a disease, he would have eventually died whether Sasuke killed him or not) Long story short Itachi's thought long term, but not LONG TERM ENOUGH. None of his plans for Sasuke.....Let me reiterate. NONE OF HIS PLANS FOR SASUKE WOULD NECESSARILY TURN OUT AS PLAN. If other people, not named Itachi, were not part of Sasuke's life.



> Lol yes because he was only 14 years old bruh. I said he was already a grown ass man despite being a child of 14 years.


And I've already debunked this earlier.


> Sasuke was kept alive for plot purposes.


Or rather your BOY ITACHI, WAS NOT THE KILLER YOU PROCLAIM HIM TO BE.


> And Danzo also told Itachi that he could spare him, as a gesture for what he was asking Itachi to do.


I'm afraid you're adding details to the scene that were not implied. Danzou  what Itachi as FULL GROWN ADULT ALREADY SHOWCASED. That Itachi himself could not kill his little brother. It's the same card , OR DON'T YOU REMEMBER.


> That part was a retcon, because Danzo and Sasuke said previously that Itachi chose to spare his younger brother but was supposed to kill him.


Actually it wasn't a retcon at all...

FIRST AND FOREMOST....Itachi's point of view trumps that of anyone elses... I'd like to think no one knows Itachi's heart/thoughts better than Itachi.

Secondly....Danzo's only reinforces what Itachi would reveal later. ...So there is no retcon at all Mr. Third...Danzo   only reinforces of why Itachi wasn't the perfect shinobi. And given that even Itachi himself doesn't define his achievements in life to what he did to Konoha buddy. He only judges himself off of what he couldn't do in life....Which is anything and everything to do with Sasuke.




> Don't disagree. But Itachi manned up when he killed his clan. He then MANNED UP again as an Edo.


But how can you man UP, TWICE, sir? You either already is, or you ain't. Considering as an Edo he essentially acknowledged, in one way or another, his ...I'd say the only time he was truly FULL GROWN, was when he died as an ...., wouldn't you say? At least as an "edo" he died with sheer thought of putting SASUKE'S HAPPINESS ABOVE HIS OWN. As it's ultimately Sasuke and Sasuke alone, that would have to live with the lost of not only his clan, but his brother to boot. And you know what? Itachi only proved that he was willing to accept the lost of his clan...He jumped through hoops, and danced around the issue of ever learning to live without Sasuke.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Jul 13, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> But it's in those statements lies the problem. You clearly don't want to accept what ITACHI himself wanted to be seen as.
> 
> But I'm not going to explain this out you in great detail hear, as I'm pretty sure I'll have plenty of opportunity to get you to understand Itachi's character.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> A. In the world of shinboi, what did we learn from the Zabuza arc? Shinobi's are Tools. And what did Sakura say about a shinobi saying 25? "....."
> 
> That scene was significant because it was the only other time we've seen Itachi crying....The first time ....(Which was scene of the night from SASUKE'S PERSPECTIVE) But the 590 rendition of the manga even trumps that because not only did it show that Itachi wasn't necessarily "FULL GROWN" in the eyes of the shinobi world. It also DEPICTS, LET ME REITERATE DEPICTS  to be the only "" in the room.
> 
> ...



Lol I know he wasn't legally an adult. He was only 14 dude. I'm saying he was mentally mature for his age. At age 7 he was as wise as a hokage. And he accepted responsibility for his actions. How many kids do you know can make complex decisions AND take responsibility for their actions? Danzo instigated something that was gonna happen regardless. The Uchihas wanted political power.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Then no need to argue Mr. Third, please provide the panel.(In regards to the upper echelons of the Akatsuki sending Itachi and Kisame) And let it speak for itself. Believe it or not, but I'm sure it's quite clear as to who knows what, about both the manga and Itachi's character. You're not even coming with an "A" game. Capturing Naruto and putting him in gejutsu for 3 years? Yeah who, what, when, where, was Itachi at any point showcase to do that? The only person that comes close to performing something similar was Obito and the Mizukage, and even then it's not clear how Obito did it. And even then Mizukage was still allowed to at least appear to be himself.
> 
> You didn't even attempt to address most the argument being presented to you. It's a if you either don't remember, or chose to abandon your original points.



It's not hard dude. Itachi could capture naruto and put him in genjutsu. Take him back to Obito and Nagato. Obito can put naruto in genjutsu, Nagato can restrain him with rinnegan rods. They just need to feed him and give him shelter for 3 years, and otherwise keep him in comatose. 

*Spoiler*: _Nagato sent Itachi and Kisame_ 
















IpHr0z3nI said:


> By what definition? You do know it may be Kishi's manga, but he still has to abide by the definition of real life terms, seeing as he's utilizing words which have set definition.
> 
> -a person who believes that war and violence are unjustifiable.(Peep the full definition ala the "and violence are unjustifiable" Itachi was not above using violence. So the definition does not HOLD.



Being opposed to war and violence doesn't mean you can't participate in it. For example, some people are opposed to needles, doesn't necesarily stop them from taking their vaccines. You can do things you don't like.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> There's no evidence to suggest the clan would've done jack. Read Obito's words."" The clan couldn't make a move without Fugaku's orders, and it's quite clear  -  -  -.
> 
> As I said before the Uchiha massacre has been told over, and over, and OVER, and the only aspects that has changed is how much in control the   of things, had on the situation.(I could go into more details as the Hokage's themselves each place the majority on the blame on the Konoha side things, but that's a different argument for a different day)
> 
> ...




You are arguing against canon. Obito clearly stated that the uchiha rebellion would shake the foundations of Konoha. allowing other nations to invade during the chaos. the clan couldn't make a move without Fugaku's orders because he was the leader. That does not mean they weren't itching for WAR.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> But, but, but....Mr. Third Itachi's a PACIFIST
> 
> And not only that, the only reason why the ENTIRE CLAN, MINUS SASUKE, HAD TO BE KILLED IS BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T INNOCENT. But weren't the Jinchuriki that Itachi were assisting in KILLING innocent as well. Itachi was SELFISH. S-E-L-F-I-S-H. He held on particular beliefs sure. But even those beliefs wavered and wasn't consistent.



No he wasn't selfish. He threw away his girlfriends, family, reputation, and ultimately his life in exchange for protecting konoha and later dying for Sasuke's sake.  He sacrificed everything he cared about dude. Even his relationship with Sasuke was tarnished because of his sacrifice.  Being an undercover in an organization requires you to play your part man, otherwise it's suspicious. You are expecting Itachi to protect everyone, which is unfair. 




IpHr0z3nI said:


> And he didn't kill his clan out of malice either....But what he did to Sasuke was most certainly because deep down at some point he was still "HUMAN"
> 
> The only thing I'm trying to do here is apply that side of Itachi's character to his character. As MANY Itachi fans don't see him that aspect. They only choose to acknowledge the SHINOBI part of his character. But in their attempts to do that they are not only disrespecting the character/Kishi.....But they are making Itachi to be one of the worst things you can be in this manga. WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY JUST A TOOL.



And so what if he was a tool? Everyone is a tool. Shinobi are paid by nations to kill people/ do wars. By your logic, Hashirama and Madara were both tools because they hired to fight each other for years. Itachi as an EDO said himself, no matter what darkness or contradictions lie within the village, he is always Itachi of the LEAF. So yes, he is ok with being a tool.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> You alluded to such...With your, but Itachi knew Tsunade could heal Tsukuyomi. "But your Itachi knew Tsunade would become the fifth Hokage." Do I need to go on? Or do you want to me to start re-quoting your initial arguments outright?



Dude, Itachi knew who Orochimaru was. He knew that Jiraiya was a legendary Sannin. Even Kisame knew. Yet Itachi doesn't know a world famous slug kunoicihi who is also one of the 3 legendary sannin? He KNEW she could heal tsykuyomi. he simply pushed Konoha in the right direction by adding another reason to pursue Tsunade. What, do you seriously think he would put the person who he wants to die to, Sasuke, in comatose without having a plan? ITachi legit told Sasuke that he wanted him to kill him one day and Itachi was pissed that Sasuke wasn't strong enough to kill him. Itachi THINKS LONG TERM. He set an amaterasu trap for Tobi. He set a kotoamatsukami trap for EMS Sasuke, etc.
Itachi had his hands tied due to being Akatsuki but still had konoha's best interest in mind. This is CANON. Just because It took Naruto and Jiraiya some effort to convince her to return Konoha, doesn't mean Itachi didn't know it would work out.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Oh I don't think Sasuke needed any extra motivation for killing him. And even before that....Who was he to decide Sasuke's fate? ...
> But let's broaden the discussion beyond manga canon.
> 
> Who do you think had the tougher life after the Massacre? Itachi or Sasuke. And before we answer that. Let's kick facts.
> ...



Making revenge Sasuke's goal did make him stronger. Sasuke just went way overboard with it. It's literally told to us that the stronger an Uchiha's hate is, the stronger they can become. But Sasuke had a whole cast of people who loved him, like Sakura and Naruto. But everyone hated Itachi. Itachi had it much harder than Sasuke dude. He died being known as an S rank traitor. Sasuke chose to do stupid things like join Orochimaru. Sasuke had every reason to Kill Itachi and other Akatsuki members, but that other shit he did was his fault.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Actually it wasn't a retcon at all...



Dude, Danzo legit said in the panel you posted that Itachi had the OPTION to spare his younger brother. So why wouldn't Itachi take that offer? That's the retcon I'm talking about.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> But how can you man UP, TWICE, sir? You either already is, or you ain't. Considering as an Edo he essentially acknowledged, in one way or another, his ...I'd say the only time he was truly FULL GROWN, was when he died as an ...., wouldn't you say? At least as an "edo" he died with sheer thought of putting SASUKE'S HAPPINESS ABOVE HIS OWN. As it's ultimately Sasuke and Sasuke alone, that would have to live with the lost of not only his clan, but his brother to boot. And you know what? Itachi only proved that he was willing to accept the lost of his clan...He jumped through hoops, and danced around the issue of ever learning to live without Sasuke.



He manned up because he killed his girlfriend, family, and friends, for the sake of the Hidden Leaf. Never mind the morality of the issue. It's morally grey. Itachi had to overcome the ethical/moral/ emotional and technically legal barriers to kill his family, friends, and lover and then be treated as an S rank traitor, while the Konoha government got to keep their hands clean.

then he MANNED UP again and realized all the related actions he took were things he could have done differently, and perhaps achieved a different outcome. He tried to take on everything by himself, and realized that was a mistake. A character can have two separate bouts of character development.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 14, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Lol I know he wasn't legally an adult. He was only 14 dude. I'm saying he was mentally mature for his age. At age 7 he was as wise as a hokage. And he accepted responsibility for his actions. *How many kids do you know can make complex decisions AND take responsibility for their actions?* Danzo instigated something that was gonna happen regardless. The Uchihas wanted political power.


Well that's a slippery slope, as all the characters in this manga are mature for their age. And having the wisdom of a Hokage at age 7; doesn't mean you got what it takes to be Hokage at age 7. If that was the case Itachi wouldn't have had to check Naruto with the, "" """ and finally "" Most of that is something Itachi didn't quite have the age of 7. Hell all that seems to be something Itachi only acquired after FAILING OVER, AND OVER IN REGARDS TO HIS RESPONSIBILITY. And what was that responsibility, as I said before you to learn to , AND NOT WHAT OTHERS HAVE TO SAY. 

And the *BOLD *has is rather fickle; considering a complex decision isn't always limited to what Itachi had to make, and I've seen kids take responsibility for their actions, all the time?(I'm a teacher of all ages after all) But why we're on the subject. Let me ask you. Can you say Itachi took full responsibility for his action? I'm not talking about killing the clan because as you said before; Itachi was a shinobi. .....And even after learning that his "whittle secret" that he wanted to keep hidden from Sasuke  WAS ALREADY EXPOSED....The courage to face Sasuke HIMSELF. Doesn't seem like he learned that lesson at age 7; Mr. Third. . . You do remember he made  to more than just Konoha, right?

As far as the Uchiha wanting to political power. I want to be RICH. Doesn't mean I'm willing to any and everything to do it. 
 And knowing what we know about Fugaku, and as Itachi's father. He clearly put his duties as Itachi's father over his role in the coup.







> It's not hard dude. Itachi could capture naruto and put him in genjutsu. Take him back to Obito and Nagato. Obito can put naruto in genjutsu, Nagato can restrain him with rinnegan rods. They just need to feed him and give him shelter for 3 years, and otherwise keep him in comatose.
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Nagato sent Itachi and Kisame_
> 
> ...


Yeah..... And that Itachi and Kisame weren't exactly successful in what they were sent to do. Hell, they hardly put up a fight. I think it's safe to say that Itachi was mainly calling the shots there. We've seen Akatsuki Biju hunting in part 2. We know for a fact that unless called back by pain/obito himself, they were essentially force to capture set Biju, by hook or crook.(Which is why Akatsuki only recruited strongest members in the first place) Was failure allowed for Deidara, Kakuzu/Hidan, Kisame, Pain, and later Sasuke himself? Pain and Sasuke failed, but the first one died and the later was tricked.

And while you do post panel of evidence that alludes to Itachi following orders. I think Obito's   that. As not only is Nagato later revealed to not know  about . The only person who really knew Itachi's secrets were Obito. I LOVE IT. I love how you accuse me of trying disrespect Itachi. But it seems you have know problem with doing just that; if the issue arises between the mission given to him by  or quote on quote "Akatsuki", and the duty given to him by .(You rather stick with the portion of Itachi's character that even Itachi HIMSELF DOESN'T FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE) He may have betrayed the clan for Konoha, but he DID NOT CHOOSE  OVER HIS .(What part of the role Sasuke played in Itachi's character do you not understand. Because I'm am lost. This is are third round about. And chapter 590 sums up Itachi's rather "MESS" of a character quite nicely. Try to to paint him as some hero, and you run into the fact that he deems what he did as a "".............




> Being opposed to war and violence doesn't mean you can't participate in it. For example, some people are opposed to needles, doesn't necesarily stop them from taking their vaccines. You can do things you don't like.


That doesn't even apply. You do know when we think of a pacifist we thing Mahatma Gandhi, who was not only oppose to war but was against violence; period. Martin Luther King Jr. could be considered arguably a pacifist as well. Maybe Kishi tried to adjust the meaning of pacifism to fit his novel, which is essentially about children learning to become killers/solders for their respective country. But I don't think it works like that. I don't think Kishi can change the definition of a term to suit his novel. So.....(Try to paint him as a pacifist and he has more blood on his hands than even Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, or any of the original cast of team seven........



> You are arguing against canon. Obito clearly stated that the uchiha rebellion would shake the foundations of Konoha. allowing other nations to invade during the chaos. the clan couldn't make a move without Fugaku's orders because he was the leader. That does not mean they weren't itching for WAR.


You need to learn the definition regarding CANON, FIRST. Canon only refers to what has actually HAPPENED. And Obito's words only refer to a . And if you want to pick and choose, who's words you arbitrate as CANON. You may want to be consistent. What did Obito state here Mr. Third, ""
What did Itachi rendition of the circumstance show us Mr. Third..."We cannot accept this any longer!" Where oh where was it stated that the Uchiha were quote on quote itching for WAR? And if the clan couldn't make a move without Fugaku'a orders because he was the leader.......(The reason why you are not fairing to well is because you are either sticking to just canon, or picking and choosing what aspect you was to absolve as canon. The UCHIHA CLAN AS A WHOLE, do not have a voice. They only have representatives. We can only get their side of things through others) You got Itachi thinking he could have handle the Uchiha massacre a different way, we have Shisui trying to stop the Uchiha massacre a different way, we later have all the HOKAGE'S BEARING A BIT OF THE BLAME AS TO WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE UCHIHA MASSACRE. And like, you guessed it, THINKING THEY COULD HAVE HANDLED THINGS A DIFFERENT WAY.(Read Sasuke's talk with the Hokages) 

Also just for kicks is giggles note Danzo's words to Itachi...I'm not going to quote them because I'm sure you are very, very capable of reading when you want to.

Danzo's (part 1)
Danzo's (part 2)
Danzo's (part 3)
(Try to paint him as a man at the age of 14, and he looks more like a "child following orders"



> No he wasn't selfish. He threw away his girlfriends, family, reputation, and ultimately his life in exchange for protecting konoha and later dying for Sasuke's sake.


But question? ? ? If your answer is NO, AND NO AGAIN....Then what are we discussing?



> He sacrificed everything he cared about dude.


And coincidentally everything he cared about was essentially everything Sasuke cared about. The difference is....SASUKE DIDN'T HAVE CHOICE. 


> Even his relationship with Sasuke was tarnished because of his sacrifice.


And once again, this was an ITACHI CHOICE. Sasuke never wanted this.(When is it going to start seeping in that any and all arguments you can conjure up to justify Itachi, would get BODIED BY SASUKE FANS. WHO HAS KNOWLEDGE OF BOTH)


> Being an undercover in an organization requires you to play your part man, otherwise it's suspicious. You are expecting Itachi to protect everyone, which is unfair.


But I'm not the one trying to pain him as a pacifist, now am I? I'm not the one trying to justify all of his "mistakes" with bullshit like Itachi..."Itachi knew that they needed a fifth Hokage. And that fifth Hokage would be Tsundae. Who could heal Tsukuyomi"

The only thing I said about Itachi from jump was that he was a "MESS"
The only thing I arbitrated before was that he was questionable as a "BIG BROTHER"(Which is something you, even after three post later, don't seem to grasp)



> And so what if he was a tool? Everyone is a tool. Shinobi are paid by nations to kill people/ do wars. By your logic, Hashirama and Madara were both tools because they hired to fight each other for years. Itachi as an EDO said himself, no matter what darkness or contradictions lie within the village, he is always Itachi of the LEAF. So yes, he is ok with being a tool.


So are you admitting that's all you think of his character? Then are you sublimely telling me that everything I arbitrated earlier about the Itachi fanbase is true?

And please oh please, in the future, if you are going to enter debates. At least learn to be able to keep up. As I never called Itachi a tool. In fact I was the first to state in I quote, "Please stick to aspects "YOU WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE" about your favorite used to"

Itachi is only a tool if you refuse to acknowledge the human part of his character, which and will always be Sasuke. Because that's the only part of his character ITACHI HIMSELF ACKNOWLEDGES. 



> Dude, Itachi knew who Orochimaru was.


Given....They were in the same organization. 





> He knew that Jiraiya was a legendary Sannin.


About as much as I know who the presidents are. 





> Even Kisame knew. Yet Itachi doesn't know a world famous slug kunoicihi who is also one of the 3 legendary sannin? He KNEW she could heal tsykuyomi.


First and foremost, when has Itachi had any association with the Sannin outside of Oro? Secondly how in the blank was Itachi supposed to know who become the next Hokage? Is there some part of the manga I'm missing? Please do tell me. 





> he simply pushed Konoha in the right direction by adding another reason to pursue Tsunade.


Yes because all of Konoha was so concerned with the condition of Kakashi and Sasuke? I think this was a personal mission by Naruto...The same Naruto you arbitrated Itachi was sent to captured, and could have...Lol

Jiraiya was playing guardian and sensei, and did not want to become the fifth Hokage, so that would explain his reasons for wanting to seek out Tsunade.



> What, do you seriously think he would put the person who he wants to die to, Sasuke, in comatose without having a plan?


Do you seriously think he would arbitrate to that very person he wants to die to, Sasuke, to kill his best friend, the very same best friend that Itachi would later come to rely on as a key instrument into "Saving Sasuke" And you wondered why I called Itachi a "Mess"



> ITachi legit told Sasuke that he wanted him to kill him one day and Itachi was pissed that Sasuke wasn't strong enough to kill him. Itachi THINKS LONG TERM.


Itachi thinking "LONG TERM", A? Then that would explain why Sasuke would have died several times if not for mercy from his opponent, Haku; saved by comrades, Naruto against Gaara; saved by comrades again, Tsunade; And saved by himself, Oro/Deidara.

Just how LONG TERM was Itachi thinking when it was quite clear, "" I elaborated more on this earlier, I'm not goin to repeat myself.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 14, 2019)

> He set an amaterasu trap for Tobi. He set a kotoamatsukami trap for EMS Sasuke, etc


But that's lies the problem. The former action contradicts the later action. If Amaterasu worked on Tobi.....Then their would've been no need for Koto....As Itachi underestimated just how "burned the bridge" was between him and Sasuke. . Thus the EMS wouldn't have even been possible. And the EMS trap just goes to showcase HOW SELFISH OF A CHARACTER ITACHI WAS. .





> Itachi had his hands tied due to being Akatsuki but still had konoha's best interest in mind.


Why do you bring up both, when Sasuke not only joined Akatsuki, temporarily, but threatened that very Konoha.
(Sasuke made his intentions clear regarding Konoha several times....Why oh why did that "FOR THE LEAF" mentality kick in there?)


> This is CANON. Just because It took Naruto and Jiraiya some effort to convince her to return Konoha, doesn't mean Itachi didn't know it would work out.


I told you about the definition of CANON, already. And unless you can prove that Itachi knew who the fifth Hokage was going to be, then I'm afraid you shouldn't even be applying that word Mr. Third.



> Making revenge Sasuke's goal did make him stronger.


Taking away everything Sasuke knew including yourself made Sasuke very, very reckless with his life. And since Itachi wasn't necessarily there to you know, raise or protect him so Sasuke made some even more questionable decisions regarding his life. Sasuke became strong, but it was by no means solely do to Itachi. Sasuke had several mentors, teachers, friends, and acquaintances to even give him hope. As Itachi's plans for Sasuke weren't very "LONG TERM" at all. Sasuke had to "" on his own.(The only person who doesn't seem willing to play by CANON is you)



> Sasuke just went way overboard with it. It's literally told to us that the stronger an Uchiha's hate is, the stronger they can become. But Sasuke had a whole cast of people who loved him, like Sakura and Naruto.


Let me guess? Sakura and Naruto were a part of Itachi's plans too? I dare you to reply back with a YES....Because I can slap you in the face with a CANON statement regarding just that so fast, that your head would spin.



> But everyone hated Itachi. Itachi had it much harder than Sasuke dude.


How? When Itachi HAD A CHOICE. A CHOICE. Note: Itachi wasn't willing to give Sasuke any choices regarding anything. But you don't need me to link that.

Considering how we know the Uchiha's grew up.....Sasuke's child hood memories don't have a Naruto or a Sakura...Or a "whole cast of people who loved him"

As far as we know Sasuke as , ,   

As you said before Itachi had a girlfriend, boyfriend Shisui, he went through the academy had joined the anbu, so he had various opportunities to acquire teammates who would become friends, rivals and all in between.

Meanwhile FLASHBACK ONLY DEPICT SASUKE ONLY DEALING WITH UCHIHAS.



> He died being known as an S rank traitor. Sasuke chose to do stupid things like join Orochimaru. Sasuke had every reason to Kill Itachi and other Akatsuki members, but that other shit he did was his fault.



LOL! Ha,HA,HA,HA...............


Now put in ....

It doesn't sound like Itachi shares your same sentiment?

And you forget 

It was either Oro or ......

"But all that other shit is his fault"(You sound like you are LOOKING....BAD)

......("But, but that other shit he did was his fault", MY ASS)




> Dude, Danzo legit said in the panel you posted that Itachi had the OPTION to spare his younger brother. So why wouldn't Itachi take that offer? That's the retcon I'm talking about.


Dude, ....In Itachi's retelling of the event, it was MADE CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT DANZO PLAYED THE "" CARD, allot harder than he played the save Konoha card. And it's not a retcon more than it is "THE MESS THAT IS ITACHI'S CHARACTER".......Kishi just knew Itachi's actions couldn't clearly be justified unless all his action boiled to doing his best to ""

And Kishi didn't necessarily blindsided us with this fact. He already had Obito arbitrate that Itachi valued  life . He demonstrated this in their team up, when  over the objective to stop Edo Tensei.(So are you ready to admit your knowledge of Itachi's character don't add up to  Sasuke fans, or do you want to continue to get beat down by CANON)



> He manned up because he killed his girlfriend, family, and friends, for the sake of the Hidden Leaf.


For the sake of the Hidden Leaf or ?
I'm afraid you really, really don't have much of leg to stand on. Because Sasuke himself already tested that "Hidden Leaf" heart of his.

So alas I sing the words in song...""

""

What part of 590 trumps anything and everything you can produce regarding the situation don't YOU GET? Once again he wasn't FULL GROWN UNTIL HE COULD FINALLY LOOK HIS BROTHER IN EYES, AS HE OWED THE LEAF NOTHING, BUT THE SAME CAN'T BE SAID FOR SASUKE. He lied, childish....He tried to manipulate....childish....Ran an the thought of facing his brother with the truth....childish again.....

In the end he underestimated just how much Sasuke loved him in return....So much so, that not only would Sasuke reevaluate his plans to crush the leaf, but he chose a path to further understand his brother....

You know what Itachi look like in my eyes...."A KNOW IT ALL, THAT KNOWS NOTHING"

And his fans aren't too different than himself. Judging from what I've encountered just in this thread.



> Never mind the morality of the issue. It's morally grey. Itachi had to overcome the ethical/moral/ emotional and technically legal barriers to kill his family, friends, and lover and then be treated as an S rank traitor, while the Konoha government got to keep their hands clean.


Not in the eyes of Sasuke.....It was cruel. It was Selfish. Itachi wasn't dumb. He knew how his brother felt about him. Because it's arguable that he felt the same for his brother. But had things gone as Itachi originally intended. Itachi died knowing .......(Sasuke had done his best to learn to hate Itachi...Oh the deception) So is the issue so morally grey, when you examine it from both brothers perspective. The situation seems kinda one-sided if you ask me.



> then he MANNED UP again and realized all the related actions he took were things he could have done differently, and perhaps achieved a different outcome. He tried to take on everything by himself, and realized that was a mistake. A character can have two separate bouts of character development.


But that such wouldn't have happened if Sasuke didn't force the issue.(Which is what you are ignoring) . He was happy with leaving things in Naruto's hands. Which wouldn't have accomplished shit.
So Itachi didn't MAN UP on his own.....As I said before his FINAL DEVELOPMENT OF HIS CHARACTER IS THE .  Since it seems I have to spell everything out for you, I'm going to attempt to do it again. And hopefully for the final time. Can you say CLOSURE......C-L-O-S-U-R-E......

That's something Itachi's selfish ass got out the gate...He got to live the left of his life knowing that although he may or may not have the scorn of his kinsmen(He wore a mask after all)....He did not have to question how his parents felt about him; even after doing what he did.

Sasuke on the other hand had no closure....Not from his parents......And most certainly not from Itachi......
He made sure to express his sentiments to Itachi's "PLANS FOR HIM" quite clear. Long story short...""(So are you you still going to continue to preach your Itachi gospel to a Sasuke fan, or is it finally starting to sink in just who knows what? With every "post reply" on your part you seem to be trying to distant Itachi's character from Sasuke's. Trying to tie his character and all his actions to the leaf. But I'm smarter than that. And unfortunately for you Kishi did do a rather "acceptable" clean up job on Itachi's character. You just simply have to learn to accept what's been given....It's not a recon. If we're being given the same story from multiple perspective. And as much praise and wank as others character give Itachi....Itachi does an excellent job of remaining somewhat humble.)

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## t0xeus (Jul 14, 2019)

Hussain said:


> he died.


Maybe he meant he trashed Sasuke in P1.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 14, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Well that's a slippery slope, as all the characters in this manga are mature for their age. And having the wisdom of a Hokage at age 7; doesn't mean you got what it takes to be Hokage at age 7. If that was the case Itachi wouldn't have had to check Naruto with the, "" """ and finally "" Most of that is something Itachi didn't quite have the age of 7. Hell all that seems to be something Itachi only acquired after FAILING OVER, AND OVER IN REGARDS TO HIS RESPONSIBILITY. And what was that responsibility, as I said before you to learn to , AND NOT WHAT OTHERS HAVE TO SAY.
> 
> And the *BOLD *has is rather fickle; considering a complex decision isn't always limited to what Itachi had to make, and I've seen kids take responsibility for their actions, all the time?(I'm a teacher of all ages after all) But why we're on the subject. Let me ask you. Can you say Itachi took full responsibility for his action? I'm not talking about killing the clan because as you said before; Itachi was a shinobi. .....And even after learning that his "whittle secret" that he wanted to keep hidden from Sasuke  WAS ALREADY EXPOSED....The courage to face Sasuke HIMSELF. Doesn't seem like he learned that lesson at age 7; Mr. Third. . . You do remember he made  to more than just Konoha, right?
> 
> ...




Rofl, You tell me to listen to itachi and not what others have to say, but then cite fugaku talking about Itachi. Itachi had wisdom at age 7 that was at the level of a hokage. That was clearly not common for people his age, otherwise Hiruzen wouldn't be impressed by it.

Lol, Uchiha were willing to stage a rebellion to achieve power. That's a call to arms. A call to action. And the panel you posted Shows Shisui saying the COUP de Ea't WAS COMING. Fugaku only took over as a father when Itachi had a blade to his head. He wanted konoha for himself and the uchiha. He tried to use his own son to get intel on Konoha. Fugaku's love and  bond  for his son was simply > than wanting to take over Konoha.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yeah..... And that Itachi and Kisame weren't exactly successful in what they were sent to do. Hell, they hardly put up a fight. I think it's safe to say that Itachi was mainly calling the shots there. We've seen Akatsuki Biju hunting in part 2. We know for a fact that unless called back by pain/obito himself, they were essentially force to capture set Biju, by hook or crook.(Which is why Akatsuki only recruited strongest members in the first place) Was failure allowed for Deidara, Kakuzu/Hidan, Kisame, Pain, and later Sasuke himself? Pain and Sasuke failed, but the first one died and the later was tricked.
> 
> And while you do post panel of evidence that alludes to Itachi following orders. I think Obito's   that. As not only is Nagato later revealed to not know  about . The only person who really knew Itachi's secrets were Obito. I LOVE IT. I love how you accuse me of trying disrespect Itachi. But it seems you have know problem with doing just that; if the issue arises between the mission given to him by  or quote on quote "Akatsuki", and the duty given to him by .(You rather stick with the portion of Itachi's character that even Itachi HIMSELF DOESN'T FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE) He may have betrayed the clan for Konoha, but he DID NOT CHOOSE  OVER HIS .(What part of the role Sasuke played in Itachi's character do you not understand. Because I'm am lost. This is are third round about. And chapter 590 sums up Itachi's rather "MESS" of a character quite nicely. Try to to paint him as some hero, and you run into the fact that he deems what he did as a "".............




Bruh, keep up. Nagato sent Itachi and Kisame. He simply didn't know what Itachi's true motivation was. Obito tells us Itachi's real motivations. Doesn't change the fact that Nagato sent them. Kisame was surprised that Itachi was retreating from Jiraiya and Naruto.  Itachi tells Kisame to be patient about capturing Naruto as an excuse for intentionally failing the mission. How hard is it to understand that Itachi is working undercover?

 Of course what Itachi did was a crime lol. Patricide is a crime. But he did so to prevent the village from being harmed by civil war. And the Konoha government was equally complicit.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> That doesn't even apply. You do know when we think of a pacifist we thing Mahatma Gandhi, who was not only oppose to war but was against violence; period. Martin Luther King Jr. could be considered arguably a pacifist as well. Maybe Kishi tried to adjust the meaning of pacifism to fit his novel, which is essentially about children learning to become killers/solders for their respective country. But I don't think it works like that. I don't think Kishi can change the definition of a term to suit his novel. So.....(Try to paint him as a pacifist and he has more blood on his hands than even Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, or any of the original cast of team seven........



Again, that is not the only definition of pacifism. Pacifisim is simply find violence unjustifiable. Itachi doesn't think he is just in killing, but he did it for the greater good. Martin Luther King is different than that. He finds violence unjustifiable, and he ALSO doesn't see it as a means to an end.
There are different types of pacifism:

"Some pacifists follow principles of , believing that nonviolent action is morally superior and/or most effective.* Some however, support physical violence for emergency defence of self or others*. Others support  in such emergencies or for conducting symbolic acts of resistance like pouring red paint to represent blood on the outside of military recruiting offices or entering air force bases and hammering on military aircraft."

The bolded would be the type of pacifist that Itachi is, generally speaking.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> You need to learn the definition regarding CANON, FIRST. Canon only refers to what has actually HAPPENED. And Obito's words only refer to a . And if you want to pick and choose, who's words you arbitrate as CANON. You may want to be consistent. What did Obito state here Mr. Third, ""
> What did Itachi rendition of the circumstance show us Mr. Third..."We cannot accept this any longer!" Where oh where was it stated that the Uchiha were quote on quote itching for WAR? And if the clan couldn't make a move without Fugaku'a orders because he was the leader.......(The reason why you are not fairing to well is because you are either sticking to just canon, or picking and choosing what aspect you was to absolve as canon. The UCHIHA CLAN AS A WHOLE, do not have a voice. They only have representatives. We can only get their side of things through others) You got Itachi thinking he could have handle the Uchiha massacre a different way, we have Shisui trying to stop the Uchiha massacre a different way, we later have all the HOKAGE'S BEARING A BIT OF THE BLAME AS TO WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE UCHIHA MASSACRE. And like, you guessed it, THINKING THEY COULD HAVE HANDLED THINGS A DIFFERENT WAY.(Read Sasuke's talk with the Hokages)
> 
> Also just for kicks is giggles note Danzo's words to Itachi...I'm not going to quote them because I'm sure you are very, very capable of reading when you want to.
> ...



LOL. SHISUI AND OBITO SAID THAT UCHIHA WERE ITCHING FOR WAR. Fugaku may be the leader, but a leader is nothing without his followers. Fugaku was the mastermind behind the plot. He had Itachi be the pipeline. Fugaku had no idea that his son had more attachments to Konoha than his own family. Shisui's plan failed because Danzo's eye was stolen dude. And having to mindcontrol a clan is no different than killing them tbh. It's taking away their free will in both cases.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> But question? ? ? If your answer is NO, AND NO AGAIN....Then what are we discussing?



And? Itachi sacrificed himself and many of the things he cherished for the sake of other people. By definition, he isn't selfish. Itachi is the reason Sasuke is even alive lol. 




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yes because all of Konoha was so concerned with the condition of Kakashi and Sasuke? I think this was a personal mission by Naruto...The same Naruto you arbitrated Itachi was sent to captured, and could have...Lol
> 
> Jiraiya was playing guardian and sensei, and did not want to become the fifth Hokage, so that would explain his reasons for wanting to seek out Tsunade.



Bruh, Kakashi, Sasuke, and Rock Lee needed a medic. The Sannin are world famous ninja. Get over it. Itachi knows who Tsunade is rofl. Itachi FAILED TO CAPTURE NARUTO ON PURPOSE.








IpHr0z3nI said:


> Itachi thinking "LONG TERM", A? Then that would explain why Sasuke would have died several times if not for mercy from his opponent, Haku; saved by comrades, Naruto against Gaara; saved by comrades again, Tsunade; And saved by himself, Oro/Deidara.
> 
> Just how LONG TERM was Itachi thinking when it was quite clear, "" I elaborated more on this earlier, I'm not goin to repeat myself.



And? Tsunade sent Jiraiya, her best friend, into the rain village and he died. Tsunade can't protect Jiraiya 24/7, just like Itachi can't protect Sasuke 24/7.

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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 14, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> But that's lies the problem. The former action contradicts the later action. If Amaterasu worked on Tobi.....Then their would've been no need for Koto....As Itachi underestimated just how "burned the bridge" was between him and Sasuke. . Thus the EMS wouldn't have even been possible. And the EMS trap just goes to showcase HOW SELFISH OF A CHARACTER ITACHI WAS. .



Not at all. It's called CONTINGENCIES. Just because he released Amaterasu on Tobi, doesn't mean it kills Tobi. And even if Tobi dies, Sasuke could still potentially learn the truth. Itachi didn't want to take that chance. And Sasuke was gonna take Itachi's eyes regardless. Who is to say that Sasuke wouldn't ever activate MS?  Who is to say he wouldn't encounter an emotional trauma? Who is to say he wouldn't seek the EMS to gain more power? You are making a ton of assumptions.







IpHr0z3nI said:


> Why do you bring up both, when Sasuke not only joined Akatsuki, temporarily, but threatened that very Konoha.
> (Sasuke made his intentions clear regarding Konoha several times....Why oh why did that "FOR THE LEAF" mentality kick in there?)



Which would be made irrelevant by Naruto having Koto, and Naruto was bound to clash with Sasuke.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Taking away everything Sasuke knew including yourself made Sasuke very, very reckless with his life. And since Itachi wasn't necessarily there to you know, raise or protect him so Sasuke made some even more questionable decisions regarding his life. Sasuke became strong, but it was by no means solely do to Itachi. Sasuke had several mentors, teachers, friends, and acquaintances to even give him hope. As Itachi's plans for Sasuke weren't very "LONG TERM" at all. Sasuke had to "" on his own.(The only person who doesn't seem willing to play by CANON is you)





IpHr0z3nI said:


> et me guess? Sakura and Naruto were a part of Itachi's plans too? I dare you to reply back with a YES....Because I can slap you in the face with a CANON statement regarding just that so fast, that your head would spin.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> ow? When Itachi HAD A CHOICE. A CHOICE. Note: Itachi wasn't willing to give Sasuke any choices regarding anything. But you don't need me to link that.
> 
> Considering how we know the Uchiha's grew up.....Sasuke's child hood memories don't have a Naruto or a Sakura...Or a "whole cast of people who loved him"
> 
> ...



Lol no. You are proving my point.  Sasuke had a whole village who sympathized with him after the massacre. Kid Sasuke has memories of playing with Naruto. On the other hand,  Kurenai and Asuma greeted Itachi with malice when he came to the village. And you dare say Sasuke had it worse? ROFL. Itachi had no friends, a brother that wanted to kill him (and Itachi believed that Itachi deserved to die too), no other family, no more girlfriend, no more Shisui. Sasuke had access to all those things and more. Itachi OBJECTIVELY had it worse.


Sasuke did not need to choose Oro. Oro was an S rank criminal who wanted his body. Sasuke had a sensei in Kakashi. He had access to countless jutsu that can be known and studied in Konoha, and had access to teachers who would not try to steal his body rofl. He had access to people who knew about Itachi, such as Hiruzen and Kakashi, and he could have sought their consult to learn more about Itachi, so that he may study Itachi as a person and find his weaknesses. ETC. Sasuke didn't do anything of that, and its his fault. Everyone would have supported him in his goal to fight and kill Itachi, as long as he didn't CONSUME HIMSELF WITH REVENGE. Its okay to want revenge, its not okay to make it the entirety of your character, to the point where he pushed Sakura away and made her cry rofl. 

And lol at you citing ITachi telling Sasuke to kill his best friend. Itachi was portraying himself as an evil bastard. Of course he would say something evil like that. HE WANTS SASUKE TO KILL HIM. How hard is that to understand?






IpHr0z3nI said:


> Dude, ....In Itachi's retelling of the event, it was MADE CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT DANZO PLAYED THE "" CARD, allot harder than he played the save Konoha card. And it's not a retcon more than it is "THE MESS THAT IS ITACHI'S CHARACTER".......Kishi just knew Itachi's actions couldn't clearly be justified unless all his action boiled to doing his best to ""
> 
> And Kishi didn't necessarily blindsided us with this fact. He already had Obito arbitrate that Itachi valued  life . He demonstrated this in their team up, when  over the objective to stop Edo Tensei.(So are you ready to admit your knowledge of Itachi's character don't add up to Sasuke fans, or do you want to continue to get beat down by CANON)



Nonsense. It's a retcon. Danzo at FKS couldn't wrap his head around why Itachi chose to spare Sasuke. Then in anime filler, Itachi is seen threatening Danzo. Itachi went back to Konoha in Part one in part to remind the elders he was still alive. Then all of that is retconn'd by DANZO saying that Itachi can spare his younger brother. How can you not the read the scan YOU YOURSELF POSTED. Danzo's words verbatum: "But in return, YOU CAN SPARE YOUR YOUNGER BROTHER".




IpHr0z3nI said:


> For the sake of the Hidden Leaf or ?
> I'm afraid you really, really don't have much of leg to stand on. Because Sasuke himself already tested that "Hidden Leaf" heart of his.
> 
> So alas I sing the words in song...""
> ...




NO. HE MANNED UP. He wanted Sasuke to kill him for what he did. ITachi happily accepted the ultimate consequence for what he did to his clan. He chose to die with a smile on his face.   Itachi knew that what he did was unforgivable, but he had to do it for the sake of his country. Obito says that NO ONE can question Itachi for what he chose to do BACK THEN.  I never said HE WAS FULLY GROWN. IF he was fully grown, then there was no room for development. He was already a grown ass man, and then became an EVEN  MORE GROWN ASS MAN. Kapeesh?


Itachi MANNED UP on his own. He tried to handle Sasuke by himself through mind control. But this time, he left Sasuke to Naruto, so that he wasn't trying to take everything on by himself. Itachi met Sasuke, then MANNED UP AGAIN, and poured his heart out to sasuke. So it's actually THREE sets of character development.

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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 15, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Rofl, You tell me to listen to itachi and not what others have to say, but then cite fugaku talking about Itachi. Itachi had wisdom at age 7 that was at the level of a hokage. That was clearly not common for people his age, otherwise Hiruzen wouldn't be impressed by it.


Third....I thought you'd learn from mistake already..(Deal How)

Fugaku's words to Itachi, isn't necessarily a different perspective. Yes the words are coming from Fugaku, but notice who's flash back it's taking place in. It's the most significant because it doesn't contradict anything cited  earlier or later in regards to Itachi. It was an intimate moment. All sides knew what was about take place, and the only the thing Fugaku wanted Itachi to due for him....Was "Take Care of Sasuke."

And please before you bring up statements that I can debunk with the flick of panel do your homework first. . . . . And even . They are not exactly diminishing what Itachi did, but they are essentially arbitrating that he was neither the first to forsake his his clan and familial ties over the village.  Considering he didn't turned his hand against the clan at age 7, that's probably precisely why Sarutobi cited what he said about Itachi....

But why does this statement have flaws to it? It's because Itachi wasn't willing to apply that same energy, when it came to Sasuke. Did he put the village over Sasuke? Even after Sasuke threatened that very village? (As I said before the only one disrespecting Itachi is YOU.)




> Lol, Uchiha were willing to stage a rebellion to achieve power. That's a call to arms. A call to action. And the panel you posted Shows *Shisui saying the COUP de Ea't WAS COMING.* Fugaku only took over as a father when Itachi had a blade to his head. He wanted konoha for himself and the uchiha. He tried to use his own son to get intel on Konoha. Fugaku's love and  bond  for his son was simply > than wanting to take over Konoha.


You poor, poor boy...If you are going to attempt to speak for a character at least have the CANON to back it up. Why are you trying to do this to Itachi's parents, when when we've only seen them twice? . . But I'm not threw with that ass yet....It's implied that Fugaku was so invested in Itachi that he often forgot about Sasuke. .  about .  had with father that he did his best to . And .(I could go on, but why? If you were that knowledgeable on the subject I shouldn't have to do this. Long story short read the flashback that features both Itachi's parents. 

And the *BOLD *only indicates that a coup was coming....But we've see from Fugaku in that very flashback that the coup began and ended with Itachi...
I think you are not reading the scene correctly, as Itachi had yet to raise his blade to anyone's head. It's implied in both the anime, and . We've later see both Itachi's parents being placed in a position very different than Itachi. They were never cited to have any regrets; after all they were just doing job;  opposed to . They only stuck to the role of playing PARENTS to both their son. 

And after the issue with Sasuke was established. Fugaku went back to discussing his final resolve to Itachi....Which ended with "I am proud of you..."

And I don't see what your issue is with Fugaku trying to get intel in regards to Konoha from Itachi. When Konoha was essentially doing the same. As far as wanting Konoha for himself and the Uchiha, do you have anything, to support that? Because I think it was cited that Fugaku was the . Much like Madara was for his time. Madara, as head of the Uchiha clan, .....  in part for .

So minor correction on your part...."Fugaku's duties as a FATHER > Fugaku's duties as a LEADER"(How many Uchiha's are you going to try to throw under the bus for the sake of Itachi?)

And how oh how is Fugaku any different than Itachi who put, "HIS DUTIES AS A BROTHER > DUTIES AS A SHINOBI," in the end? At least Fugaku had the courtesy to let Itachi make his own decisions. It took Itachi constantly failing and then some, for him to finally give that same luxury to Sasuke.



> Bruh, keep up.


Says the person who hasn't gained any ground in this conversation so far? You are aware that I've provided far, far more panel than you have thus far. Which means I'm probably far, far ahead of you in this discussion.


> Nagato sent Itachi and Kisame. He simply didn't know what Itachi's true motivation was.


First and foremost I've already addressed this in full...It's you that needs to keep up.

"Yeah..... And that Itachi and Kisame weren't exactly successful in what they were sent to do. Hell, they hardly put up a fight. I think it's safe to say that Itachi was mainly calling the shots there. We've seen Akatsuki Biju hunting in part 2. We know for a fact that unless called back by pain/obito himself, they were essentially force to capture set Biju, by hook or crook.(Which is why Akatsuki only recruited strongest members in the first place) Was failure allowed for Deidara, Kakuzu/Hidan, Kisame, Pain, and later Sasuke himself? Pain and Sasuke failed, but the first one died and the later was tricked."




> Obito tells us Itachi's real motivations. Doesn't change the fact that Nagato sent them.


How does the issue of whether Nagato sent them or not change the argument. Itachi clearly did not intend to follows Nagato's orders, so your overall point is moot.



> Kisame was surprised that Itachi was retreating from Jiraiya and Naruto.  Itachi tells Kisame to be patient about capturing Naruto as an excuse for intentionally failing the mission. How hard is it to understand that Itachi is working undercover?


And this serves to debunk Itachi's true story.....HOW?



> Of course what Itachi did was a crime lol. Patricide is a crime. But he did so to prevent the village from being harmed by civil war. And the Konoha government was equally complicit.


So why oh why did it take you this long to acknowledge Itachi's action as such. Because if we were to compare this stance, with your original argument. You'd note they are completely different in terms of defending Itachi's actions.

I'm just going to put this right here:

""

You clearly wanted to justify Itachi's action. But after being "Given Itachi's POINT OF VIEW" you do not seem to be approaching Itachi's character with that same BS that showcases you have no respect or knowledge of the character beyond power.



> Again, that is not the only definition of pacifism. Pacifisim is simply find violence unjustifiable. Itachi doesn't think he is just in killing, but he did it for the greater good. Martin Luther King is different than that. He finds violence unjustifiable, and he ALSO doesn't see it as a means to an end.
> There are different types of pacifism:
> [LINKHL]448423[/LINKHL]
> "Some pacifists follow principles of [LINKHL]448424[/LINKHL], believing that nonviolent action is morally superior and/or most effective.* Some however, support physical violence for emergency defence of self or others*. Others support [LINKHL]448425[/LINKHL] in such emergencies or for conducting symbolic acts of resistance like pouring red paint to represent blood on the outside of military recruiting offices or entering air force bases and hammering on military aircraft."
> ...


_Sigh _Where do we start. .
"*Pacifism covers a spectrum of views, including the belief that international disputes can and should be peacefully resolved, calls for the abolition of the institutions of the military and war, opposition to any organization of society through governmental force* (), rejection of the use of physical violence to obtain political, economic or social goals, the obliteration of force, and opposition to violence under any circumstance, even defence of self and others. Historians of pacifism  and Thomas Paul Socknat define pacifism "in the sense generally accepted in English-speaking areas" as "an unconditional rejection of all forms of warfare". Philosopher  defines the main form of pacifism as "anti-warism", the rejection of all forms of warfare. Teichman's beliefs have been summarized by  as "... A pacifist rejects war and believes there are no moral grounds which can justify resorting to war. War, for the pacifist, is always wrong." In a sense the philosophy is based on the idea that the ends do not justify the means."

Before I even attempt to rebuke your points notice....I'm trying to keep this discussion as SIMPLE AND CLEAN and as straight forward as possible. The only thing the wiki points to, and I'm most certainly not going to read all of that, is the many forms of pacifism and how it's been applied throughout history. But peep the *BOLD* for a second. Before they even break down the many forms of pacifism. They highlight "peacefully resolved" in THE DEFINITION. Now here's a question? Can you say Itachi's/Konoha resolution for dealing with the Uchihas was a peaceful one? And you continue to preach that for the "Greater good" BS which doesn't fly. Because not only did Itachi not apply that same energy to Sasuke, he even questioned this actions in the end. 

Furthermore I did my best to find, "*Some however, support physical violence for emergency defence of self or others*." And I couldn't find it....But it doesn't matter as Itachi himself "(You can't KEEP UP if you are not willing to accept ITACHI WAS A HYPOCRITE....)
Even if we were to accept the bold...How does that justify Itachi's action against Sasuke? Kakashi you can argue he was defending himself. But the Tsukuyomi against Sasuke was not out of defense. How do is justify his actions as an Akatsuki member? As he wasn't necessarily defending the leaf or himself by capturing and sealing Bijuu's, He was merely trying to play a role. You are not going to get very far when trying to categorize Itachi's character, as Kishi couldn't even do that. Which is why I arbitrated that his character is a "MESS" because he never remained CONSISTENT THROUGHOUT HIS LIFE, LIMITING HIMSELF TO JUST ONE BELIEF.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 15, 2019)

> LOL. SHISUI AND OBITO SAID THAT UCHIHA WERE ITCHING FOR WAR. Fugaku may be the leader, but a leader is nothing without his followers. Fugaku was the mastermind behind the plot.


Please note: That I'm more familiar with the manga than you are.

OBITO said the Uchiha were "" He later mentioned something along the lines of a ""
Shusui cited the same thing the Uchiha were plotting Note: None of the the statements allude that the Uchiha's were itching for WAR. We don't have much from the Uchiha side, but I think it safe to say that a Civil War would have been unavoidable. But from SHEER COMMONSENSE, given that the Uchiha's were taken out by two members, we know for a fact a CIVIL WAR probably was probably not the best move the Uchihas could have made to take leadership.

And you are bringing up Fugaku again, and you are forgetting that it's not the leader that defines the followers. It's the followers that define the leader. Which is why Madara deserted the village. 

If you only watch the anime, which borrows some idea from the novel, you'd have more inside to Fugaku.... 


Now I'll be the first to tell you that not everything is considered cannon. But in a situation where the only thing WE KNOW ABOUT A CHARACTER STEMS FROM ALTERNATIVE SOURCE WHY NOT USE IT? It's not as if the this scene contradicts anything that happened in the manga. It was a re-adaptation of the novel. But it does something the Novel doesn't do. Rather than reiterate things from just Itachi's perspective. It reiterates things from the UCHIHA'S PERSPECTIVE. Long story short. The anime shows that Fugaku is just as smart as he appears in the manga. The anime also showcases that he had an actual plan that avoided a "Civil War" outright, as given that the clan was again slaughtered by two members, probably wouldn't have been the best move to begin with. The anime shows what the manga alludes to, is that Fugaku although acting as leader of the coup, didn't exactly express his TRUE PLANS TO ANYONE BUT ITACHI. Finally it showcases, that without that VERY ITACHI, FUGAKU HAD NOTHING. Because his "Coup" plans begin and ended on Itachi. Which is why Fugaku, cited, "" If there is a Naruto afterlife, and the members of the Naruto verse all ended up in the same place. It's not going to be Itachi that has to justify his actions to the Uchiha. It's going to be Fugaku that going to be questioned if he truly did his BEST JOB, as the clans leader.



> He had Itachi be the pipeline. Fugaku had no idea that his son had more attachments to Konoha than his own family. Shisui's plan failed because Danzo's eye was stolen dude. And having to mindcontrol a clan is no different than killing them tbh. It's taking away their free will in both cases.


Oh I believe Fugaku had some idea..... Itachi .(You are not going to fair well if you are not knowledgeable or not willing to accept things that make Itachi look......)
Which is why we see in the final chapter before the infamous night......... .. ....  So it's foolish to say Fugaku had no idea that his son had more attachments to Konooha than his own family, as there is more than enough evidence to showcase otherwise. ...And I already showcased  enough times...That I don't think I have to explain it anymore.

(And oh good god....Does your bias for Itachi's character showcase with every STUPID remark you make to justify his actions? Mind-control a clan is no different that killing them tbh? . But not just with Koto my friend; but in regards to everything? Opposed to simply just killing him. Itachi resorted to lying, manipulation, etc. etc. Just so he could keep Sasuke alive. Itachi didn't give a damn about free will, when it came to Sasuke. He only cared about if Sasuke's life and his life alone. So unless you are willing to apply that same energy in regards to Itachi actions, I suggest you stop trying to even pretend that you "Care about his character" beyond aesthetics) 



> And? Itachi sacrificed himself and many of the things he cherished for the sake of other people. By definition, he isn't selfish. Itachi is the reason Sasuke is even alive lol.


And we now see you don't know shit about the character.

And we now see you are not only wasting my time and yours. 

Itachi may be the reason that Sasuke is even alive.....BUT I BELIEVE YOU FAILED AT READING THE MANGA FOR THE 100 TIMES. . . NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.



> Bruh, Kakashi, Sasuke, and Rock Lee needed a medic. The Sannin are world famous ninja. Get over it. Itachi knows who Tsunade is rofl. Itachi FAILED TO CAPTURE NARUTO ON PURPOSE.


Bruh, Get over it....YOU HAVE NOTHING BUT BASELESS "BULLSHIT" THAT YOU CANNOT BACK BY PANEL OR ANYTHING.
Bruh, Get over it....YOU ARE NOT FIT TO DISCUSS ITACHI IF YOU AREN'T EVEN WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT HE DID THINGS OVER, AND OVER WITHOUT THINKING "LONG TERM"

I don't deny Itachi failed to capture Naruto on purpose....But I'm also not the one trying to excuse Itachi for being in the village with solely quote on quote, "Orders from Nagato"
(You think I don't know what you are trying to do? Think again..You are trying your hardest to distance Itachi's character from Sasuke's, AND IT'S QUITE OBVIOUS. That's why you are LOSING. HARD. That's why none of your arguments in regards to Itachi are adding up. You are trying to do the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what Kishi ended up doing. He couldn't sell us Itachi the hero on his own. Which is why he brought the character back in the first place. Sure he already told us that Itachi valued Sasuke's life more than the village. But he said many things in regards to Itachi's actions. .................exactly what team he's truly playing for. And what you ignore is by Itachi finally MANNING UP.....Also  a  stone for  to  as well.(Notice:  Isn't that surprising. All the scheming and lies....Just to manipulate.....And it turns out the only thing Itachi had to do was TELL THE TRUTH? Lol, and you wounder why your "Itachi know this and that" doesn't make sense? Itachi couldn't understand PEOPLE Mr. Third, as in his own words "" You arbitrated Itachi changed....But the question I raised is did he change before an after Edo because he clearly still had this philosophy,"Y" And you know who ended up changing their Ninja way? Itachi or Naruto...Yeah I think we both know what the answer to that is buddy)



> And? Tsunade sent Jiraiya, her best friend, into the rain village and he died. Tsunade can't protect Jiraiya 24/7, just like Itachi can't protect Sasuke 24/7.


And as the CHURCH said...,

A-MAN

If you are willing to accept that Itachi isn't perfect in this area? Then why kick this BULLSHIT?
Bruh, Kakashi, Sasuke, and Rock Lee needed a medic. The Sannin are world famous ninja. Get over it. Itachi knows who Tsunade is rofl. Itachi FAILED TO CAPTURE NARUTO ON PURPOSE.

And here a "Snapple top fact" if Itachi couldn't protect Sasuke 24/7 .

(DEAL HOW)


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 15, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Not at all. It's called CONTINGENCIES. Just because he released Amaterasu on Tobi, doesn't mean it kills Tobi. And even if Tobi dies, Sasuke could still potentially learn the truth. Itachi didn't want to take that chance. And Sasuke was gonna take Itachi's eyes regardless. Who is to say that Sasuke wouldn't ever activate MS?  Who is to say he wouldn't encounter an emotional trauma? Who is to say he wouldn't seek the EMS to gain more power? You are making a ton of assumptions.


If Tobi dies, then who oh who is going to tell Sasuke anything? The only one's that knew the truth were Danzo, Sarutobi, The Elders, Tobi, and itachi. Two of those options were dead Mr. Third. And considering Danzo thought Itachi had betrayed Konoha by telling Sasuke, it's safe to assume . And without Sarutobi or Itachi there to protect him....There's nothing stopping Danzo from killing Sasuke. Especially considering he would not have access to the Mangekyo, as that required Sasuke to learned the truth about Itachi.

And who's to say Sasuke wouldn't have ever activated MS? The AUTHOR Mr. Third....""  And I'm afraid you are putting the cart before the horse. Without Tobi, who would have been there to implant Itachi's eyes? Better yet, you've still have yet to explain how Sasuke would have unlocked his Mangekyou. And damn the, "he wouldn't have encountered an emotional trauma?" When the verdict is still out on if Sasuke would have even lived that long. He literally had no reason to live after Killing Itachi, except to continue his path of revenge, as there was still Obito. But we are operating under the assumption that Tobi is dead. So I we're back to square one. What reason was there for Sasuke to live? And even if Naruto and company would have even given him one, what's to stop Danzo from completing his Uchiha Genocide plan?

I'm making a tons of assumption? But I'm afraid I didn't make any assumptions at all, outside of the obvious ones. It's you that have some explaining to do. As it's you that has to explain a scenario where Obito/Tobi is out of the picture. It is you that has to explain how is Sasuke supposed to achieve everything he had gained under Obito's/Tobi's tutelage. I think it's Itachi who didn't have a clear "LONG TERM" Strategy.




> Which would be made irrelevant by Naruto having Koto, and Naruto was bound to clash with Sasuke.


Koto was utilized to save Itachi....So I think you aught to reevaluate your response to that stance.




> Lol no. You are proving my point.  Sasuke had a whole village who sympathized with him after the massacre. Kid Sasuke has memories of playing with Naruto. On the other hand,  Kurenai and Asuma greeted Itachi with malice when he came to the village. And you dare say Sasuke had it worse? ROFL.* Itachi had no friends, a brother that wanted to kill him (and Itachi believed that Itachi deserved to die too), no other family, no more girlfriend, no more Shisui. Sasuke had access to all those things and more. Itachi OBJECTIVELY had it worse.*


Lol no. You are proving my point. That you have no grounds to be debating on the subject because you do not have the understanding of both characters required to engage in such a discussion. Sasuke had the whole village who sympathized with him after the massacre? Then why oh why do we have  -  -   after the ....Which only tells the same story of Naruto does: ----had-.
Kid Sasuke didn't have memories of playing with Naruto. Which is what both points of view are showcasing. Both of them were alone, and to full of pride to to see that both essentially needed each other. Kurenai and Asuma greeted Itachi as they should. He was a traitor and, as far as they knew, a threat to the leaf. And I do hope you have more than that justify who had it worse? Because I think I listed multiple reasons why Sasuke had it worse.(If you are not going to try....I'm not going continue to waist my time. You knew this wasn't an adequate response before you even hit the "Post Reply" button)
And I think I can mimic your reasoning down to the letter. Sasuke had no friends, until he joined the academy, and he had a brother that ESSENTIALLY TOOK AWAY EVERYTHING HE KNEW. And Itachi may have believed that Itachi deserved to die, but only by Sasuke hands....As I arbitrated before Sasuke  would have  at , had Haku not been as merciful as he was. I don't think I need to role out the Gaara game tapes.

And *BOLD *overlooks something that isn't so Objective. Sasuke never got the chance to make friends, have a girl friend, have a best friend in Shisui, as one of the major issues the Uchiha had was that they were isolated. And the whittle we see of Sasuke at the academy, Pre-Massacre, indicated he  "Shinobi Business". In Sasuke's eyes . And it's FOOLISH TO UTILIZE THE, "THE NO OTHER FAMILY OR ITACHI" LINE because last I recall Itachi and Sasuke were brothers, LOL. Also Itachi lost the clan at 13/14....Sasuke at 7/8....Long story short...Itachi had much, much more time than Sasuke to accumulate MOST WHAT WAS TAKEN AWAY BY HIS OWN HANDS. Sasuke was not only younger, thus relied on his family more, he also wasn't the one who MADE THE DECISION TO MASSACRE THE CLAN. Sasuke had access to all those things, yeah I think the story only picks up with Naruto and Sasuke around 12/13....We only see snippets of Sasuke's life earlier than that, but if we were to actually take into account Sasuke's words and actions. We know Sasuke wasn't the best at making friends. Oh he had access to them, but they were mainly utilized to perpetuate Sasuke's goals. He betrayed, attempted to kill, abandon, etc. etc. at various points. He wasn't exactly the most loyal when it came to the friend department.  And the first Girlfriend he had; was technically Sakura????? Who he married, had a child with, and doesn't see much of any of them. Your rebuttal is comical, as you didn't even attempt to digest all that was being thrown at you.




> Sasuke did not need to choose Oro. Oro was an S rank criminal who wanted his body.


Here lies a slippery slope. And it's an argument you cannot win. You forget that Itachi was later hit with the a "Mysterious Illness" meaning....Sasuke didn't have forever to accumulate strength. If you are going to go off tangents. Then you must at least attempt abide by the circumstances. Oro was not only much, much stronger than Kakashi. The only alternative path to accumulating power was by KILLING NARUTO, which is the path Itachi told him to take.




> Sasuke had a sensei in Kakashi. He had access to countless jutsu that can be known and studied in Konoha, and had access to teachers who would not try to steal his body rofl.


Yeah I'd like to think Oro > Part 1 Kakashi....And considering Sasuke learned much of Kakashi's approach to fighting on his own. I'd reckon Oro was the far, far greater teacher.



> He had access to people who knew about Itachi, such as Hiruzen and Kakashi, and he could have sought their consult to learn more about Itachi, so that he may study Itachi as a person and find his weaknesses.


By the time Sasuke left Konoha Hiruzen was DEAD. What are you even talking about. As far as Kakashi goes,  You attempt to justify Itachi so much that you ignore the actual story. ...Just that.



> ETC. Sasuke didn't do anything of that, and its his fault. Everyone would have supported him in his goal to fight and kill Itachi, as long as he didn't CONSUME HIMSELF WITH REVENGE.


Except Kakashi..........And you know what...Judging from Sasuke demeanor immediately after killing Itachi and learning the truth....Kakashi was....well.....RIGHT. ....



> Its okay to want revenge, its not okay to make it the entirety of your character, to the point where he pushed Sakura away and made her cry rofl.


........  The only thing he didn't do, that was based partially off of what his brother did, was KILL INNOCENTS. Other than that he utilized the Itachi guide to get stronger, he even makes a heavy reference when attempting to kill Oro, that Itachi cited to him earlier.



> And lol at you citing ITachi telling Sasuke to kill his best friend. Itachi was portraying himself as an evil bastard. Of course he would say something evil like that. HE WANTS SASUKE TO KILL HIM. How hard is that to understand?


And lol, considering Itachi is the only thing he knew. And not to mention the strongest person to boot. Why oh why wouldn't he take Itachi's advice? How hard is it to understand that Sasuke idolized Itachi pre, post Massacre.....
And if Itachi really, really had Sasuke's best interest at heart. He would have came to the village and do what  he had to do to remind Danzo/Elders he was still alive and left. As you said before Itachi could not monitor Sasuke's life 24/7, then it would have been far, far better if he simply left Sasuke alone. He was starting to learn to accept his knew life, which is what a scene in the fifth Naruto opening represents.


(Around .44ish....)

I'm beginning to see that this is simply a waist of time. You're not willing acknowledge Itachi's faults...And when I bring them up you either try to flip them or make excuses. Alas I think I've done my job her, as it's obvious to see who is who.....You are not even attempting to make a decent argument anymore.



> Nonsense. It's a retcon. Danzo at FKS couldn't wrap his head around why Itachi chose to spare Sasuke. Then in anime filler, Itachi is seen threatening Danzo. Itachi went back to Konoha in Part one in part to remind the elders he was still alive. Then all of that is retconn'd by DANZO saying that Itachi can spare his younger brother. How can you not the read the scan YOU YOURSELF POSTED. Danzo's words verbatum: "But in return, YOU CAN SPARE YOUR YOUNGER BROTHER".


Oh this inconsistency in Itachi's character is retcon? And the others are either "Itachi knew who the fifth Hokage was" or "Itachi wanted Sasuke to hate him" I got you looking stupid Mr. Third..

Obito already   that Itachi chose to spare Sasuke's life and why.... It's not the anime fault you aren't up to speed with Itachi's character. And I'm quite aware of what every scan I'm posting is citing.. Danzo's words doesn't contradict what  . They only elaborate on it...Read Danzo's words more carefully THIRD... ""That is not a contradiction. That's analysis. That's a confirmation.




> NO. HE MANNED UP. He wanted Sasuke to kill him for what he did. ITachi happily accepted the ultimate consequence for what he did to his clan. He chose to die with a smile on his face.   Itachi knew that what he did was unforgivable, but he had to do it for the sake of his country. Obito says that NO ONE can question Itachi for what he chose to do BACK THEN.  I never said HE WAS FULLY GROWN. IF he was fully grown, then there was no room for development. He was already a grown ass man, and then became an EVEN  MORE GROWN ASS MAN. Kapeesh?


As I said so often...My job isn't to change your belief...You believe he was a man prior to the Edo development...You have the right to your opinion. But just note that, in the end when, "when are cakes mixed" your argument doesn't even add up. Itachi knew what he did was unforgivable, but in the end Sasuke KINDA forgave him anyways.....This is where I have my disagreements in regards to Kishi and Sasuke, but it's his character, and I'm just a fanboy. Obito stated that no one can question what he chose to do back then, but then Sasuke simply ignored all the rules and questioned him anyways, but not as to why he did it. "."

And once again if he was "A GROWN ASS MAN," than what took him so long to give Sasuke the proper closure he desired. You arbitrate "Itachi had the wisdom of a Hokage at age 7," but you ignore that the Hokages actually treated Sasuke far, far better than Itachi did in life time and then some.(Up until 590 arguably) They attempted to dismiss him as a child at first. But when he declared he wasn't and validated such with his eyes. They spoke to him and gave him all he sought without holding anything back....And more importantly despite, at least Hashirama being able to crush him, they let Sasuke decide what he wanted to in the end.(As neither Itachi or they had no right to tell Sasuke how he should accept Itachi's truth)



> Itachi MANNED UP on his own. He tried to handle Sasuke by himself through mind control. But this time, he left Sasuke to Naruto, so that he wasn't trying to take everything on by himself. Itachi met Sasuke, then MANNED UP AGAIN, and poured his heart out to sasuke. So it's actually THREE sets of character development.


Itachi MANNED UP on his own? -. He tried to dismiss his Sasuke problem, that he failed over, and over, again to Naruto. He finally was willing to admit that he could not deal with Sasuke on his own. But he overestimated Naruto's power, and underestimated his. It was ultimately Itachi that came between Naruto and Sasuke in the first place.(So how oh how could Naruto have fixed it, when Naruto couldn't even understand) You arbitrate that Itachi is "Omniscient" yet actions doesn't indicate that he is very familiar with the concept of BONDS.

And you count three sets of character development. But correct me if I ain't right....Aren't trying to dismiss the very things that make him a character in the first place? He only had one character development Mr. Third, unless you are willing to acknowledge that Itachi entire characters was a recon to begin with. And that was as an Edo.....Itachi's character was already fixed in both power and character. The only thing Kishi had to do; was slowly reveal aspects to his power and character. The development you are arbitrating were Itachi's, were actually Sasuke's. We are told Itachi's story through mostly Sasuke's point of view. As Sasuke interacts with the various people that knew him. In addition to his own knowledge/experience of/with him. The only time Itachi ever got tell his story from his point of a view, was in his fight with Kabuto onward. That's where he acknowledge his mistake, why he failed, and what he could have differently. There a heavy bit of back forth between Itachi and Sasuke that I won't get into....(Because you can read)

Long story short....Had Itachi not done or said anything to Sasuke after ...Sasuke would have ultimately have gotten the better of his brother in regards to something. But ultimately Itachi had to pull the  card. 590 was essentially a GIANT "I don't care anymore," that essentially gave Sasuke's plots of revenge no foundation. As Itachi already declared his love was unconditional. So the only people he'd be hurting in his revenge plot was himself.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 15, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Third....I thought you'd learn from mistake already..(Deal How)
> 
> Fugaku's words to Itachi, isn't necessarily a different perspective. Yes the words are coming from Fugaku, but notice who's flash back it's taking place in. It's the most significant because it doesn't contradict anything cited earlier or later in regards to Itachi. It was an intimate moment. All sides knew what was about take place, and the only the thing Fugaku wanted Itachi to due for him....Was "Take Care of Sasuke."
> 
> ...





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Bruh, Get over it....YOU HAVE NOTHING BUT BASELESS "BULLSHIT" THAT YOU CANNOT BACK BY PANEL OR ANYTHING.
> Bruh, Get over it....YOU ARE NOT FIT TO DISCUSS ITACHI IF YOU AREN'T EVEN WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT HE DID THINGS OVER, AND OVER WITHOUT THINKING "LONG TERM"
> 
> I don't deny Itachi failed to capture Naruto on purpose....But I'm also not the one trying to excuse Itachi for being in the village with solely quote on quote, "Orders from Nagato"
> (You think I don't know what you are trying to do? Think again..You are trying your hardest to distance Itachi's character from Sasuke's, AND IT'S QUITE OBVIOUS. That's why you are LOSING. HARD. That's why none of your arguments in regards to Itachi are adding up. You are trying to do the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what Kishi ended up doing. He couldn't sell us Itachi the hero on his own. Which is why he brought the character back in the first place. Sure he already told us that Itachi valued Sasuke's life more than the village. But he said many things in regards to Itachi's actions. [LINKHL]448962[/LINKHL].....[LINKHL]448963[/LINKHL].......[LINKHL]448964[/LINKHL].....exactly what team he's truly playing for. And what you ignore is by Itachi finally MANNING UP.....Also [LINKHL]448965[/LINKHL] a [LINKHL]448966[/LINKHL] stone for [LINKHL]448967[/LINKHL] to [LINKHL]448968[/LINKHL] as well.(Notice: [LINKHL]448969[/LINKHL] Isn't that surprising. All the scheming and lies....Just to manipulate.....And it turns out the only thing Itachi had to do was TELL THE TRUTH? Lol, and you wounder why your "Itachi know this and that" doesn't make sense? Itachi couldn't understand PEOPLE Mr. Third, as in his own words "[LINKHL]448970[/LINKHL]" You arbitrated Itachi changed....But the question I raised is did he change before an after Edo because he clearly still had this philosophy,"Y[LINKHL]448971[/LINKHL]" And you know who ended up changing their Ninja way? Itachi or Naruto...Yeah I think we both know what the answer to that is buddy)




ROFL. You did not refute my argument. Itachi thought like a Hokage at age 7, as you yourself just posted. He was able to replicate what the founders of his village did, thinking higher than tribalism, which the rest of his clain failed to do. You yourself cited a Scan of Fugaku scolding Itachi in front of the other Uchiha Police for talking out against clan tribalism. Keep up man, I already said this.

When did I ever say that Itachi's love for Sasuke was less than that of Konoha? It was clearly stated and shown that he low diff'd Sasuke in the final battle but died on purpose so that Sasuke could have vengeance, and Itachi died, triggering Pain's invasion of Konoha. It's clear that Itachi loved Sasuke slightly more than the village, never denied that, but as I said that was for plot purposes.


LMAO. Your Hiruzen scan debunks you. Hiruzen said "Itachi was sensitive to his ancestry. His astuteness about the village origins and the *shinobi that bore from it*. Itachi OBJECTIVELY Knows about the Sannin. Even without Hiruzen's statement, the Sannin are WORLD FAMOUS PRODIGAL NINJA FROM KONOHA. But you're disrespect for Itachi extends so deep that you claim that he doesn't know who Tsunade is. Unreal. World class medic, but the boy who studied his village and was a spy for years doesn't know who she is. The same boy later came back to Konoha and saw that it needed a Hokage. That same boy put his brother in tsykuyomi, the same brother who he wants to kill him one day, yet he did that without being aware that there was a medic out there who could save him, given she is the ONLY ONE with the medical prowess to heal Tsykuyomi. The ONLY one, named by Hanzo to be a Sannin, who could compete with Chiyo in posions, the same Chiyo who could compete with the same Hanzo in posions. Totally not disrespecting Itachi though.






IpHr0z3nI said:


> First and foremost I've already addressed this in full...It's you that needs to keep up.
> 
> "Yeah....[LINKHL]448974[/LINKHL]. And that Itachi and Kisame weren't exactly successful in what they were sent to do. Hell, they hardly put up a fight. I think it's safe to say that Itachi was mainly calling the shots there. We've seen Akatsuki Biju hunting in part 2. We know for a fact that unless called back by pain/obito himself, they were essentially force to capture set Biju, by hook or crook.(Which is why Akatsuki only recruited strongest members in the first place) Was failure allowed for Deidara, Kakuzu/Hidan, Kisame, Pain, and later Sasuke himself? Pain and Sasuke failed, but the first one died and the later was tricked."





IpHr0z3nI said:


> How does the issue of whether Nagato sent them or not change the argument. Itachi clearly did not intend to follows Nagato's orders, so your overall point is moot.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> And this serves to debunk Itachi's true story.....HOW?






Dude, you aren't keeping up. 
Obito recruits Itachi into Akatsuki himself on the condition that both of them eradicate the Uchiha clan (except for Sasuke) but Obito is prevented from launching full engagements on Konoh, but Itachi has to cooperate in helping the Akatsuki otherwise. FACT. Hiruzen approved of this plan as well for Itachi.

Nagato is second command of Akatsuki, but he essentially serves as the leader of the Akatsuki while Tobi is out doing his own thing. Nagato was NEVER INFORMED about the circumstances behind why Itachi joined Akatsuki. Itachi himself portrayed himself to be an evil clanskiller to Tobi. Itachi never told Tobi that he loved the leaf, he simply told him leaf was off limits. What Itachi didn't know was that Obito knew everything that happened and the real reason Itachi killed his clan. Obito was shown to have had dealings with Danzo during the massacre, as implied during the Danzo vs Sasuke fight. Itachi was clearly surprised by this when revived as an Edo , because he said "Madara knew the truth about me after all". Not even Black zetsu was told that much, Obito only informed Zetsu that Itachi was an undercover spy. That was it. Black Zetsu himself had no idea that Itachi planned to die at Sasuke's hand. He assumed it was just a fight to settle the uchiha massacre, and Itachi was going to go all out to Sasuke's eyes and achieve EMS, while Sasuke was going all out to avenge his clan, kapeesh?

Anyways, Nagato still has plans to seal all nine bijuu. After hearing about the invasion of Konoha by Orochimaru, Nagato feels its a good opportunity to capture the nine tails ahead of time, since the village was canonically weakened. So he sends Itachi and Kisame, especially because he knew Itachi could sneak into the village unnoticed. It's no different than how Sasori sneaked Deidara into the sand. It was the best duo to send for each situation. This is where you aren't keeping up. Itachi ACCEPTED NAGATO's ORDERS, BUT ONLY BECAUSE HE KNEW IT WAS A GOOD OPPPORTUNITY TO WARN THE ELDERS/ CHECK ON SASUKE/CHECK ON VILLAGE,WARN KONOHA OF AKATSUKI, ETC. This is first revealed by OBito, Itachi's TRUE MOTIVATIONS.  Do you get it now?
At the end of Part One, we clearly see Pain call all of the Akatsuki into the attendance, noting that they will eventually capture the nine tails at some point. Then the rest you should know.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> You poor, poor boy...If you are going to attempt to speak for a character at least have the CANON to back it up. Why are you trying to do this to Itachi's parents, when when we've only seen them twice? [LINKHL]448976[/LINKHL]. [LINKHL]448977[/LINKHL]. But I'm not threw with that ass yet....It's implied that Fugaku was so invested in Itachi that he often forgot about Sasuke. [LINKHL]448978[/LINKHL]. [LINKHL]448979[/LINKHL] about [LINKHL]448980[/LINKHL]. [LINKHL]448981[/LINKHL] had with father that he did his best to [LINKHL]448982[/LINKHL]. And [LINKHL]448983[/LINKHL].(I could go on, but why? If you were that knowledgeable on the subject I shouldn't have to do this. Long story short read the flashback that features both Itachi's parents.
> 
> And the *BOLD *only indicates that a coup was coming....But we've see from Fugaku in that very flashback that the coup began and ended with Itachi...[LINKHL]448984[/LINKHL]
> I think you are not reading the scene correctly, as Itachi had yet to raise his blade to anyone's head. It's implied in both the anime, and [LINKHL]448985[/LINKHL]. We've later see both Itachi's parents being placed in a position very different than Itachi. They were never cited to have any regrets; after all they were just doing job; [LINKHL]448986[/LINKHL] opposed to [LINKHL]448987[/LINKHL]. They only stuck to the role of playing PARENTS to both their son. [LINKHL]448988[/LINKHL]
> ...




What is this nonsense? DUDE. WTF. Shisui says that he failed to stop the coup' de eat with Koto because Danzo stole his eye. The coup was coming. Do you even know what a coup is? It's an attempted assassination of government leaders. If the coup didn't go smoothly, all other konoha soldiers would come to defend the Hokage and the elders.  it would erupt into a civil war, which would then erupt into a world war. Fugaku had no idea that Itachi was on Konoha's side, hence why he says " Oh, so you're on their side now". You are  incapable of reading your own scans properly. It's like you are just typing out words.  The Third Hokage AND Danzo were prepared for the worst. Third Hokage wanted Itachi to buy more time after Shisui's death, but Danzo eventually convinced even Hiruzen that time was up. Hence why Edo Third tells Sasuke that he had Itachi kill his clansmen. DANZO AND HIRUZEN WERE IN AGREEMENT. Danzo did the honors of giving the mission to Itachi himself, to avert catastrophe by killing the majoriy of his clan at night with an ambush. We already saw that Fugaku could not be convinced by words until Itachi was standing with a sword to his back. He thought his son was on his side, but his son was a double agent. How is this hard to understand?  Edo Itachi also clearly says that if he talked to sasuke Sooner, he could have changed mother, father, and even the UCHIHA. That means all were complicit, even if Fugaku was the mastermind. He clearly had convinced the other Uchiha of his revolutionary ideals.  You wonder why I'm not posting scans when you yourself has posted all relevant scans already, just failed to interpret them correctly in the context of all available information.







IpHr0z3nI said:


> So why oh why did it take you this long to acknowledge Itachi's action as such. Because if we were to compare this stance, with your original argument. You'd note they are completely different in terms of defending Itachi's actions.
> 
> I'm just going to put this right here:
> 
> ...




And???? When did I say that Itachi wasn't a criminal? KEEEP UP

That does not change the fact he was a perfect shinobi. He accepted the full consequences of his actions, and he did not kill them out of hatred or malice, but rather because of a deeper love for his country,  which wasmorally grey. His family was trying to kill Villagers in order to assume power, yet you are comfortable with that because of your bias against Itachi. Unreal. 





IpHr0z3nI said:


> _Sigh _Where do we start. [LINKHL]449001[/LINKHL].
> "*Pacifism covers a spectrum of views, including the belief that international disputes can and should be peacefully resolved, calls for the abolition of the institutions of the military and war, opposition to any organization of society through governmental force* ([LINKHL]449002[/LINKHL]), rejection of the use of physical violence to obtain political, economic or social goals, the obliteration of force, and opposition to violence under any circumstance, even defence of self and others. Historians of pacifism [LINKHL]449003[/LINKHL] and Thomas Paul Socknat define pacifism "in the sense generally accepted in English-speaking areas" as "an unconditional rejection of all forms of warfare".[LINKHL]449004[/LINKHL] Philosopher [LINKHL]449005[/LINKHL] defines the main form of pacifism as "anti-warism", the rejection of all forms of warfare.[LINKHL]449006[/LINKHL] Teichman's beliefs have been summarized by [LINKHL]449007[/LINKHL] as "... A pacifist rejects war and believes there are no moral grounds which can justify resorting to war. War, for the pacifist, is always wrong." In a sense the philosophy is based on the idea that the ends do not justify the means.[LINKHL]449008[/LINKHL]"
> 
> Before I even attempt to rebuke your points notice....I'm trying to keep this discussion as SIMPLE AND CLEAN and as straight forward as possible. The only thing the wiki points to, and I'm most certainly not going to read all of that, is the many forms of pacifism and how it's been applied throughout history. But peep the *BOLD* for a second. Before they even break down the many forms of pacifism. They highlight "peacefully resolved" in THE DEFINITION. Now here's a question? Can you say Itachi's/Konoha resolution for dealing with the Uchihas was a peaceful one? And you continue to preach that for the "Greater good" BS which doesn't fly. Because not only did Itachi not apply that same energy to Sasuke, he even questioned this actions in the end.
> ...




Nonsense. All you had to was use 'control find' to find the sentence. I just checked the wikipedia page and the sentence I bolded previously is still there on the site. Concession accepted, since you admitted to not reading the full thing. Itachi fits into one of the definitions of pacifisim listed on that same webpage. Shows you are too biased to actually address the evidence I cited, and instead only looked at the evidence that supports your claim. I have the wikipedia page screenshotted and bookmarked, and mind you, the wikipedia page is not the only website that says the same thing. You clearly were not at all thorough in your research of the broad term that is pacifism. 


Itachi simply threatened Danzo because he knows how shady Danzo is dude. This is common sense. Danzo is the same guy that drove Shisui to suicide. Of course Itachi threatened him to keep his promise to not hurt Sasuke, because that was part of the condition on which Itachi killed his clan. It's about holding up your end of the deal. Itachi's love for Sasuke is slightly >Konoha,  nothing new. Still doesn't change the fact that Itachi sacrificed everything else he cared about in exchange for protecting his government, the least they could do was keep his brother alive. Itachi was even willing to take full blame for everything.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 15, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> But from SHEER COMMONSENSE, given that the Uchiha's were taken out by two members, we know for a fact a CIVIL WAR probably was probably not the best move the Uchihas could have made to take leadership.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Please note: That I'm more familiar with the manga than you are.
> 
> OBITO said the Uchiha were "[LINKHL]449011[/LINKHL]" He later mentioned something along the lines of a "[LINKHL]449012[/LINKHL]"
> Shusui cited the same thing the Uchiha were plotting [LINKHL]449013[/LINKHL]Note: None of the the statements allude that the Uchiha's were itching for WAR. We don't have much from the Uchiha side, but I think it safe to say that a Civil War would have been unavoidable. But from SHEER COMMONSENSE, given that the Uchiha's were taken out by two members, we know for a fact a CIVIL WAR probably was probably not the best move the Uchihas could have made to take leadership.
> ...





You cited a video that PROVES MY POINT. Fugaku himself said the clan was ITCHING FOR BLOOD. He convinced his clan that the Konoha government was mistreating them. They agreed on that much. The only difference is Fugaky was relying on Itachi ( who he didn't even know that ITachi was loyal to Konoha the whole time, as I already stated)  for a POTENTIALLY bloodless solution. And even then his plan was highly optimistic. He thinks he can just walk into Hiruzen's office, restrain them and the other elders physically or through genjutsu, and negotiate terms? Do you have any idea how nonsensical that is? Danzo would be the first to object. Battle is breaking out, as Fugaku himself admitted. And it won't end without blood. That's for DAM SURE. 


And how dishonest are you? Obito and Itachi beat down the uchiha clan at NIGHT TIME, with an ambush that likely killed many of them in their sleep from the inside. Obito could easily infiltrate dude to Kamui. And no one, not even Itachi's father, had suspected Him to be loyal to Konoha up to that point. They picked off many uchiha in their sleep in their quarters, unsuspectingly. Itachi and Obito then would have had to take on a large but manageable amount of the uchiha police force in head on head battle.  Even Hiruzen, Danzo, and some anbu would have achieved something similiar but with  much higher difficulty, given the leaf can't infiltrate the uchiha as easy as Obito and Itachi could for obvious reasons.

And just because Fugaku may have had suspicions about Itachi's loyalty, doesn't mean he didn't hope for Itachi to come through and show loyalty to his family. If Fugaku was willing to change, then he would have done so way ahead of time. 
\




IpHr0z3nI said:


> (And oh good god....Does your bias for Itachi's character showcase with every STUPID remark you make to justify his actions? Mind-control a clan is no different that killing them tbh? [LINKHL]449020[/LINKHL]. But not just with Koto my friend; but in regards to everything? Opposed to simply just killing him. Itachi resorted to lying, manipulation, etc. etc. Just so he could keep Sasuke alive. Itachi didn't give a damn about free will, when it came to Sasuke. He only cared about if Sasuke's life and his life alone. So unless you are willing to apply that same energy in regards to Itachi actions, I suggest you stop trying to even pretend that you "Care about his character" beyond aesthetics)



ROFL. You are comparing genjutsu based mind control to generic manipulation. Wow just wow. Sasuke still has a mind of his own and is free to interpret things as he likes. If I tell you to jump off a bridge are you gonna do it? Christ, I hope not dude. Seriously. Even  Sasuke didn't even kill Naruto at VOTE1 because he had enough common sense to know it wasn't the right thing to do if he was gonna hope to be more 'moral' than Itachi. Itachi wanted to be killed for his actions, not hard to grasp.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> If Tobi dies, then who oh who is going to tell Sasuke anything? The only one's that knew the truth were Danzo, Sarutobi, The Elders, Tobi, and itachi. Two of those options were dead Mr. Third. And considering Danzo thought Itachi had betrayed Konoha by telling Sasuke, it's safe to assume . And without Sarutobi or Itachi there to protect him....There's nothing stopping Danzo from killing Sasuke. Especially considering he would not have access to the Mangekyo, as that required Sasuke to learned the truth about Itachi.
> 
> And who's to say Sasuke wouldn't have ever activated MS? The AUTHOR Mr. Third....""  And I'm afraid you are putting the cart before the horse. Without Tobi, who would have been there to implant Itachi's eyes? Better yet, you've still have yet to explain how Sasuke would have unlocked his Mangekyou. And damn the, "he wouldn't have encountered an emotional trauma?" When the verdict is still out on if Sasuke would have even lived that long. He literally had no reason to live after Killing Itachi, except to continue his path of revenge, as there was still Obito. But we are operating under the assumption that Tobi is dead. So I we're back to square one. What reason was there for Sasuke to live? And even if Naruto and company would have even given him one, what's to stop Danzo from completing his Uchiha Genocide plan?
> 
> I'm making a tons of assumption? But I'm afraid I didn't make any assumptions at all, outside of the obvious ones. It's you that have some explaining to do. As it's you that has to explain a scenario where Obito/Tobi is out of the picture. It is you that has to explain how is Sasuke supposed to achieve everything he had gained under Obito's/Tobi's tutelage. I think it's Itachi who didn't have a clear "LONG TERM" Strategy.




OMG. Unreal. You missed the scenario for if Tobi DOESNT DIE. Then Sasuke learns the truth. Tobi himself thought that Amaterasu was Itachi's last trick.  It's CALLED CONTINGENCIES. PREPARING FOR THE UNEXPECTED. ITS CALLED WISDOM. Itachi believed that Obito was Madara uchiha. And Obito admitted he had secrets hidden from Itachi. And in the event that Tobi didn't die or died, doesn't matter, Itachi kept an EXTRA CARD in the back on off chance Sasuke awakens his MS down the line, say from the death of any friend he meets. We are talking about a world where Edo tensei exists, yet you think its impossible for Sasuke to learn the truth about the massacre from people who have already died. Unreal man, unreal. And nothing was stopping Sasuke from plucking Itachi's eyes from his corspe man. Use common sense here. Eyes in naruto can be preserved through a variety of methods, you only have to look toward how Obito kept Nagato's rinnegan preserved in ice iirc.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 15, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Koto was utilized to save Itachi....So I think you aught to reevaluate your response to that stance.




Not at all. Itachi was revived against his will and forced to fight Naruto. If itachi didn't use Koto, then either him or Nagato would have solo'd Bee and Naruto. He had no choice there. And just goes to show you how having the contingency in the FIRST PLACE came in handy for a situation that was separate from Itachi's original intent.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Lol no. You are proving my point. That you have no grounds to be debating on the subject because you do not have the understanding of both characters required to engage in such a discussion. Sasuke had the whole village who sympathized with him after the massacre? Then why oh why do we have  -  -  after the ....Which only tells the same story of Naruto does: ----had-.
> Kid Sasuke didn't have memories of playing with Naruto. Which is what both points of view are showcasing. Both of them were alone, and to full of pride to to see that both essentially needed each other. Kurenai and Asuma greeted Itachi as they should. He was a traitor and, as far as they knew, a threat to the leaf. And I do hope you have more than that justify who had it worse? Because I think I listed multiple reasons why Sasuke had it worse.(If you are not going to try....I'm not going continue to waist my time. You knew this wasn't an adequate response before you even hit the "Post Reply" button)
> And I think I can mimic your reasoning down to the letter. Sasuke had no friends, until he joined the academy, and he had a brother that ESSENTIALLY TOOK AWAY EVERYTHING HE KNEW. And Itachi may have believed that Itachi deserved to die, but only by Sasuke hands....As I arbitrated before Sasuke  would have  at , had Haku not been as merciful as he was. I don't think I need to role out the Gaara game tapes.
> 
> And *BOLD *overlooks something that isn't so Objective. Sasuke never got the chance to make friends, have a girl friend, have a best friend in Shisui, as one of the major issues the Uchiha had was that they were isolated. And the whittle we see of Sasuke at the academy, Pre-Massacre, indicated he  "Shinobi Business". In Sasuke's eyes . And it's FOOLISH TO UTILIZE THE, "THE NO OTHER FAMILY OR ITACHI" LINE because last I recall Itachi and Sasuke were brothers, LOL. Also Itachi lost the clan at 13/14....Sasuke at 7/8....Long story short...Itachi had much, much more time than Sasuke to accumulate MOST WHAT WAS TAKEN AWAY BY HIS OWN HANDS. Sasuke was not only younger, thus relied on his family more, he also wasn't the one who MADE THE DECISION TO MASSACRE THE CLAN. Sasuke had access to all those things, yeah I think the story only picks up with Naruto and Sasuke around 12/13....We only see snippets of Sasuke's life earlier than that, but if we were to actually take into account Sasuke's words and actions. We know Sasuke wasn't the best at making friends. Oh he had access to them, but they were mainly utilized to perpetuate Sasuke's goals. He betrayed, attempted to kill, abandon, etc. etc. at various points. He wasn't exactly the most loyal when it came to the friend department. And the first Girlfriend he had; was technically Sakura????? Who he married, had a child with, and doesn't see much of any of them. Your rebuttal is comical, as you didn't even attempt to digest all that was being thrown at you.



Wow you're becoming very arrogant with nothing to back it up lol. Concession accepted. Sasuke had access to friends and people who cared about him. Ino and Sakura BOTH liked him.  And I like how you just straight up ignore the complexity of Itachi's character and predicament. his love for Sasuke was slightly > Konoha. He still CARED about Konoha, and had a mission to do. Hiruzen told him to keep an eye on the Akatsuki, and he had a pact with Obito. So he doesn't have the time to be with Sasuke the way you are implying. He can't make  good friends because he is listed in the bingo book as an S rank traitor and genocider, on TOP of being in the akasuki. He was cited for killing his family, friends, and lover. Who on earth would want to be friends/ lovers of a guy FAMOUS for stabbing almost all of them in the back?  How dense are you?  Sasuke had NOTHING of the sort attached to his name. He was considered the innocent survivor of a horrible patricide, and people sympathized with him back in part one. Get this BS out of here.  And Sasuke most certainly played with naruto and others a a friend. He was 6 years old and lacked a clan. There was no one else to socialize with.  Even naruto who was alone, found ways to fit in.






IpHr0z3nI said:


> Here lies a slippery slope. And it's an argument you cannot win. You forget that Itachi was later hit with the a "Mysterious Illness" meaning....Sasuke didn't have forever to accumulate strength. If you are going to go off tangents. Then you must at least attempt abide by the circumstances. Oro was not only much, much stronger than Kakashi. The only alternative path to accumulating power was by KILLING NARUTO, which is the path Itachi told him to take.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yeah I'd like to think Oro > Part 1 Kakashi....And considering Sasuke learned much of Kakashi's approach to fighting on his own. I'd reckon Oro was the far, far greater teacher.






IpHr0z3nI said:


> By the time Sasuke left Konoha Hiruzen was DEAD. What are you even talking about. As far as Kakashi goes,  You attempt to justify Itachi so much that you ignore the actual story. ...Just that.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Except Kakashi..........And you know what...Judging from Sasuke demeanor immediately after killing Itachi and learning the truth....Kakashi was....well.....RIGHT. ....




This is beyond stupid. Who the fuk cares if Oro is a better teacher than Kakashi?  His end goal was to TAKE SASUKE's Body. Oro had no reason to train Sasuke to the point where Sasuke would be too strong for Oro to take over. That happened due to plot, and Oro's sickness. Sasuke himself admitted he would have lost to healthy Oro. And Oro has never needed to train his body transfer hosts in order to transfer over his skills and abilities to them. Sasuke survived because of PLOT ARMOUR.  And I call BS, Kakashi isn't the only teacher Sasuke had access to. He had a whole village. We have seen Naruto consulting Asuma for help when learning rasenshuriken for example. And lol at you misinterpreting Kakashi's words, not surprisng at this point. Kakashi himself is seen trying to kill Itachi TWICE. He is totally okay with Sasuke killing itachi, sufficient revenge isn't something that defines the reasoning for it, as revenge clouded Sasuke's judgement, as we clearly saw.  Itachi was already in the bingo book for his actions. Sasuke had every right to kill him. Kakashi never denied that.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> ........  The only thing he didn't do, that was based partially off of what his brother did, was KILL INNOCENTS. Other than that he utilized the Itachi guide to get stronger, he even makes a heavy reference when attempting to kill Oro, that Itachi cited to him earlier.



Concession accepted. Ignoring the fact that Revenge/hatred does not have to be only thing that defines sasuke's character.  Itachi never said that. He said Sasuke lacked hatred. Never told Sasuke to break his bonds. Sasuke came to that conclusion by his dumbass self. You can have hatred and Keep your bonds. Raikage hated Sasuke for "killing" Bee and wanted him dead at the FKS. Does that suddenly mean that he cut his bond with his right hand man Darui in of itself? of course not. Sasuke is an idiot.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Oh this inconsistency in Itachi's character is retcon? And the others are either "Itachi knew who the fifth Hokage was" or "Itachi wanted Sasuke to hate him" I got you looking stupid Mr. Third..
> 
> Obito already   that Itachi chose to spare Sasuke's life and why.... It's not the anime fault you aren't up to speed with Itachi's character. And I'm quite aware of what every scan I'm posting is citing.. Danzo's words doesn't contradict what  . They only elaborate on it...Read Danzo's words more carefully THIRD... ""That is not a contradiction. That's analysis. That's a confirmation.



 

Dude, Sasuke said that Itachi was supposed to kill Sasuke but chose not to. We learn LATER that that is RETCONNED by Danzo HIMSELF saying that Itachi can save his younger brother. How is this hard to understand? i never said that Itachi didn't care about sasuke.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> And you count three sets of character development. But correct me if I ain't right....Aren't trying to dismiss the very things that make him a character in the first place? He only had one character development Mr. Third, unless you are willing to acknowledge that Itachi entire characters was a recon to begin with. And that was as an Edo.....Itachi's character was already fixed in both power and character. The only thing Kishi had to do; was slowly reveal aspects to his power and character. The development you are arbitrating were Itachi's, were actually Sasuke's. We are told Itachi's story through mostly Sasuke's point of view. As Sasuke interacts with the various people that knew him. In addition to his own knowledge/experience of/with him. The only time Itachi ever got tell his story from his point of a view, was in his fight with Kabuto onward. That's where he acknowledge his mistake, why he failed, and what he could have differently. There a heavy bit of back forth between Itachi and Sasuke that I won't get into....(Because you can read)




Lol no. Edo Itachi had the option to use izanami on Sasuke in order to change his fate. But he chose not to. He saved that task for Naruto, even before he encountered Sasuke by chance. He told Naruto that he entrusted him to take care of Sasuke. And in the end, it was naruto that had to beat the shit of Sasuke to get him to actually change his ways for good.




And don't say that I called Itachi omniscient ever again. I NEVER said that shit. You aren't even reading half of what I'm saying. I acknowledge that Itachi made mistakes and grew from them. Doesn't change he was already a grown ass man at age 14. Even as adults, we still experience character development, and I am speaking from experience here.  But this concept seems difficult for you to grasp.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Jul 16, 2019)

damn....


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> damn....


Just spreading the word bro

Still waiting on you to refute Databook IV listing Hirashin giri as instant


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 16, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> ROFL. You did not refute my argument. Itachi thought like a Hokage at age 7, as you yourself just posted. He was able to replicate what the founders of his village did, thinking higher than tribalism, which the rest of his clain failed to do. *You yourself cited a Scan of Fugaku scolding Itachi in front of the other Uchiha Police for talking out against clan tribalism.* Keep up man, I already said this.


LMAO, YOU NEVER HAD MUCH ARGUMENT TO BEGIN WITH. I doubt you even understand what we're discussing anymore. And why are you telling me things I already know. Considering YOUR REPLY VS. MINE....Who seems like they have better understanding of the manga? Of the character? Do you think I'm just posting these links just for myself? Long story short. This little debate we're having is only to PROVE TO ME, that you are knowledgeable of Itachi's character. Considering I've not short changed you once in regards to my knowledge of him.

And first and foremost please limit your knowledge of the Uchiha clan, to what we actually know. The Uchiha clan were only shown in flashbacks here and there. The only one's part of the massacre who have names are Fugaku, Mikoto, and Itachi. You cannot paint a negative picture of the clan because I can easily do that to Itachi. You arbitrated earlier that the issue was GREY; please oh please stick to that position. 

And where oh where did I do the *BOLD*, that's what you get for selective reading. You do know I can remember my points down to the letter, right? I only said this...

"Oh I believe Fugaku had some idea..... Itachi .(You are not going to fair well if you are not knowledgeable or not willing to accept things that make Itachi look......)
Which is why we see in the final chapter before the infamous night......... .. ....  So it's foolish to say Fugaku had no idea that his son had more attachments to Konooha than his own family, as there is more than enough evidence to showcase otherwise. ...And I already showcased  enough times...That I don't think I have to explain it anymore."

You talk about me keeping up, but the only one who appears lost is you...Fugaku never   in  to anything. PLEASE BEFORE YOU HIT THE "POST REPLY" BUTTON READ....(None of scans showcases Fugaku doing nothing, but protecting Itachi)

You got to learn there's two sides to a debate Third. BOTH READING AND RESPONDING.(Out of respect for both your time and mine...PLEASE OH PLEASE SHOW A BIT MORE EFFORT IN YOUR RESPONSES. I haven't misinterpreted anything you said. I addressed each issue you raised BAR 4 BAR....)



> When did I ever say that Itachi's love for Sasuke was less than that of Konoha? *It was clearly stated and shown that he low diff'd Sasuke in the final battle but died on purpose* so that Sasuke could have vengeance, and Itachi died, triggering Pain's invasion of Konoha. It's clear that Itachi loved Sasuke slightly more than the village, never denied that, but as I said that was for plot purposes.


And it's statements like the *BOLD *which tell me I'm wasting my time. , GENIUS. He didn't low difficulty anything. You seem to have to spin everything negative about Itachi into something that's entirely OPINIONATED...Unfortunately for you, I don't have time for opinions. Especially when their not validated by the manga. 



> LMAO. Your Hiruzen scan debunks you. Hiruzen said "Itachi was sensitive to his ancestry. His astuteness about the village origins and the *shinobi that bore from it*.


Debunks what, exactly.. How do I know who or what you're referring to if you are TO LAZY to actually address the issue you are referring to.


> Itachi OBJECTIVELY Knows about the Sannin. Even without Hiruzen's statement, the Sannin are WORLD FAMOUS PRODIGAL NINJA FROM KONOHA.


So when you can tell me how Itachi was supposed to know that Tsunade would become Fifth Hokage then you can come back and holler at me.

You cannot be this serious...This cannot be your A game. You are not even trying anymore, you'd notice this thread is dead, right. Thus the only person who probably reading your stuff is me. Therefore who you trying to front for? I mean seriously. 



> But you're disrespect for Itachi extends so deep that you claim that he doesn't know who Tsunade is.


Well you can't exactly make a case for me using actual CANON to support you know....Him knowing here.
And you most certainly can't make a case for Itachi knowing something, we the readers had to find out, in regards to who will become the next Hokage.


> Unreal. World class medic, but the boy who studied his village and was a spy for years doesn't know who she is.


_Sigh _I know who the first, second and third presidents are....Doesn't mean I know how skilled they were at their Jobs. We only have records of their escapades. But I can't tell you specifically if set president was good or bad because I didn't live through those times. 

Listen to yourself. Itachi worked as a spy for the village. But does that mean he was in such village....We already got a panel that he was ordered to infiltrate the Akatsuki...So we both know why his role as a "spy" was.. And even then we can't get into to much details in regards to that. Because we've never seen Itachi actually relay information about Akatsuki to the village, at any point.



> The same boy later came back to Konoha and saw that it needed a Hokage.


(WAIST OF TIME, WAIST OF TIME, WAIST OF TIME)
We were already told why he was there...

And it wasn't because he was there to foresee who would become the next Hokage, so once again WHERE ARE YOU GOING? 



> That same boy put his brother in tsykuyomi, the same brother who he wants to kill him one day, yet he did that without being aware that there was a medic out there who could save him, given she is the ONLY ONE with the medical prowess to heal Tsykuyomi.


We know that Itachi could kill with Tsukuyomi if he wanted judging from NOVEL......So I don't think he did it with the intention of permanently DISABLING ANYONE...So who knows what Itachi was thinking...Maybe he figured they'd wake up eventually. Unless you can somehow prove away to support that Itachi is "Omniscient" then you can't make a case of him knowing Tsunade would do jack shit. As the readers ourselves had to wait and see who the next Hokage would be, as Jiraiya was the first choice. Tsunade was the second choice. And she only chose to become so after some heavy convincing from Naruto and fighting Oro.



> The ONLY one, named by Hanzo to be a Sannin, who could compete with Chiyo in posions, the same Chiyo who could compete with the same Hanzo in posions. Totally not disrespecting Itachi though.


Define disrespect, mate? Because I'm not willing to believe he's "Omniscient"
Because I'm not willing to believe "He had everything planned out from the start"

I think I'm showcasing far, far more respect to the character by essentially acknowledging that he's HUMAN. And I'm doing him far, far more justice than you ever could by actually doing my homework on the character. Not making HALF ASS arguments that don't remotely link up. Are you really applying an A,B,C argument to what is essentially A SHOWCASING TO WHO KNOWS MORE ABOUT THE CHARACTER? 


> Dude, you aren't keeping up.
> Obito recruits Itachi into Akatsuki himself on the condition that both of them eradicate the Uchiha clan (except for Sasuke) but Obito is prevented from launching full engagements on Konoh, but Itachi has to cooperate in helping the Akatsuki otherwise. FACT. Hiruzen approved of this plan as well for Itachi.


Keep up with what? Because of the way you quoted me, I don't know what aspect of my argument you are trying to Debunk. And I damn sure know what you are attempting to address is not even close to the response you are responding to.

Jesus Christ why are you doing this to yourself.

(Note: I actually put in the EXTRA EFFORT TO GO BACK AND SEE WHAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO...AND I'M STILL LOST. I KNOW WHAT ITACHI DID...I've proven that. What do you think the "Orange Highlighted Text" is? Why do you think my responses showcases several of them than YOURS? Stop trying to out IpHr0z3nI, IpHr0z3nI because you'd only end up making yourself seem like the fool)





> Nagato is second command of Akatsuki, but he essentially serves as the leader of the Akatsuki while Tobi is out doing his own thing. Nagato was NEVER INFORMED about the circumstances behind why Itachi joined Akatsuki. Itachi himself portrayed himself to be an evil clanskiller to Tobi. Itachi never told Tobi that he loved the leaf, he simply told him leaf was off limits. What Itachi didn't know was that Obito knew everything that happened and the real reason Itachi killed his clan. Obito was shown to have had dealings with Danzo during the massacre, as implied during the Danzo vs Sasuke fight. Itachi was clearly surprised by this when revived as an Edo , because he said "Madara knew the truth about me after all". Not even Black zetsu was told that much, Obito only informed Zetsu that Itachi was an undercover spy. That was it. Black Zetsu himself had no idea that Itachi planned to die at Sasuke's hand. He assumed it was just a fight to settle the uchiha massacre, and Itachi was going to go all out to Sasuke's eyes and achieve EMS, while Sasuke was going all out to avenge his clan, kapeesh?


Bravo, Bravo so you know somethings about the character we're discussing. Now if you can just arbitrate how this related to what you are responding to. Now if you can please give me something about Itachi that isn't cookie cut from the manga. I wan't to hear an Itachi fan a true understanding of his character, that goes beyond his escapades. Notice my previous post did far more than just present you cookie cutter facts. I actually took to time to analyze and arbitrate a opinion that is based of pages, but showcase I can provide a little more incite to the character. 



> Anyways, Nagato still has plans to seal all nine bijuu. After hearing about the invasion of Konoha by Orochimaru, Nagato feels its a good opportunity to capture the nine tails ahead of time, since the village was canonically weakened.


I love how you are trying to speak for a character that hadn't existed at the time...But it's hilarious.





> So he sends Itachi and Kisame, especially because he knew Itachi could sneak into the village unnoticed. It's no different than how Sasori sneaked Deidara into the sand. It was the best duo to send for each situation. *This is where you aren't keeping up*. Itachi ACCEPTED NAGATO's ORDERS, BUT ONLY BECAUSE HE KNEW IT WAS A GOOD OPPPORTUNITY TO WARN THE ELDERS/ CHECK ON SASUKE/CHECK ON VILLAGE,WARN KONOHA OF AKATSUKI, ETC. This is first revealed by OBito, Itachi's TRUE MOTIVATIONS.  Do you get it now?


Am I not keeping up, or can you not provide something that supports the idea. Don't tell me Itachi accepted anything, when I know for certain Nagato was likely a character that didn't exist at the time. We literally have a ..."Proclaiming that even if we had more back up, it probably wouldn't change the outcome," in regards to Jiraiya. But we know Pain was the one that killed Jiraiya. Which implies not only than Nagato/Pain character not exist at the time. But even if we were to assume Nagato ordered Itachi to capture Naruto.....We know for certain that was not his intentions. As he didn't even attempt to capture Naruto. It was later revealed from Obito that Itachi's true objective for coming to the village was to remind Danzo and the Elders that he still alive. And that's all we can assume. As that's the only thing that's actually Head canon. Sasuke came and found him, so it's not obvious if Itachi wanted to see Sasuke or not. And if seeing Sasuke was part of his plan, then you are just proving to me that Itachi isn't as "Omniscient" as you are trying to make him out to be. Sasuke was doing just fine on his own up until that point. He had Team 7, who was slowly filling the whole left by him and his actions. Check on the village, warn Konoha of Akatsuki, are kinda can we say irrelevant. As Itachi was a "spy" undercover, what could he do for Konoha. And I don't think the village needed to be warn about the Akatsuki, sure they were the first Akatsuki members introduced, but I believe Jiraiya was also tasked with gathering information in regards to the Akatsuki. So do I get what now? You have to establish what it took you almost damn near HALF A POST TO ESTABLISH. For me to get it. You have to first show me that I've not grasped it. I think I asked you "And this serves to debunk Itach's true story, how?" Yeah I don't believe your post even addressed that.



> At the end of Part One, we clearly see Pain call all of the Akatsuki into the attendance, noting that they will eventually capture the nine tails at some point. Then the rest you should know.


Yeah considering that I'm already knowledgeable in regards to Itachi's actions in part 1, yeah I think I probably do know.







> What is this nonsense? DUDE. WTF. Shisui says that he failed to stop the coup' de eat with Koto because Danzo stole his eye. The coup was coming. Do you even know what a coup is? It's an attempted assassination of government leaders.


Did you even read what I posted....If this your Piss Poor response to all the above...Then we need not go on...You can't just pick and choose what you want to respond to. That's not how a debate works. And you make it harder for the posting you are debating to actually address you. As they HAVE TO SPEND TIME GOING BACK TO READ WHAT THEY WROTE. BECAUSE THE RESPONSE DOESN'T MATCH WHAT IS BEING CITED.


> If the coup didn't go smoothly, all other konoha soldiers would come to defend the Hokage and the elders.  it would erupt into a civil war, which would then erupt into a world war.


But the coup never happened now did it.....And judging that I already went the extra mile to at least provide a hint on what probably what Fugaku was planning, you should have probably waited and read a bit more before responding...Moving on.



> Fugaku had no idea that Itachi was on Konoha's side, hence why he says " Oh, so you're on their side now". You are  incapable of reading your own scans properly.


You do know the definition of a rhetorical question, right? You are capable of reading after the page after , right. What part of, "We understand Itachi" don't you realize. And considering that was just one of the scans I listed. I'm afraid you have proven that you didn't take the time to read my post. I believe I provided multiple evidence to showcase Fugaku already knew prior to the scene.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 16, 2019)

> It's like you are just typing out words.


Since this is a forum where we communicate through, "typing out words," I think that's a fundamental part of posting. 


> The Third Hokage AND Danzo were prepared for the worst. Third Hokage wanted Itachi to buy more time after Shisui's  death, but Danzo eventually convinced even Hiruzen that time was up.


Now I believe you are just typing out words, and not words that actually address the thing you are responding to. Tell me why are you replying if you're not going to read? Tell me why are you giving me things that: A. I probably already know, B. Things that are just pure common sense, or C. Things not related to this stuff you're addressing. You cannot do this. You have to adequately respond to the text in front of you. Sometime trying to be "LAZY" and responding to paragraphs in BULK just isn't going to cut it. It only showcases that you either or able to, aren't willing to, or simply replying to save face.



> Hence why Edo Third tells Sasuke that he had Itachi kill his clansmen. DANZO AND HIRUZEN WERE IN AGREEMENT. Danzo did the honors of giving the mission to Itachi himself, to avert catastrophe by killing the majoriy of his clan at night with an ambush.


And what does this have to do with Fugaku?



> We already saw that Fugaku could not be convinced by words until Itachi was standing with a sword to his back.


LMAO! Does the panel showcases Fugaku trying to make his case for the Uchiha clan in  panel.
(I understand your love for Itachi, but you see....YOU COME AT ME WITH THIS WEAK SHIT, AND YOU ARE GOING TO GET BODIED, PERIOD)



> He thought his son was on his side, but his son was a double agent.


I already showcased that Fugaku seem to have gave up on trying to convince Itachi a long time ago...
Once again I going to post the ...AND I'D ADVISE YOU TO READ IT.
Do you see Fugaku converse with Itachi at any point in that chapter. His the short answer NO...Here's the long answer NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

What's the chapter called? What is the BLEEPING chapter called?

Fugaku's words to Sasuke is quite clear..."DO NOT FOLLOW AFTER YOUR BROTHER..."

Why would he tell him to do something the complete opposite of what he told him .

What separates one chapter from the next....Is it 222 "Suspicions of Itachi"

Well ain't that one for common sense.




> How is this hard to understand?  Edo Itachi also clearly says that if he talked to sasuke Sooner, he could have changed mother, father, and even the UCHIHA.


Changed mother, father, and the Uchiha....That does not implicate that Fugaku was ignorant of Itachi's actions. You do know Itachi literally made his intentions clear  -  - .(If Fugaku couldn't understood where Itachi's elegance lied there then you are essentially calling him a fool....And I'm not going to let you do that...)



> That means all were complicit, even if Fugaku was the mastermind. He clearly had convinced the other Uchiha of his revolutionary ideals.


Then you ignore how the , .....Which means you don't have a LICENCE TO BE TALKING ANYTHING UCHIHA, TO SOMEONE WHO'S AWARE OF ANY AND ALL THINGS UCHIHA.


> You wonder why I'm not posting scans when you yourself has posted all relevant scans already, just failed to interpret them correctly in the context of all available information.


And here lies the problem. I'm doing all the work, and you are ignoring most of it.
You forget the purpose behind the scan. It's validate what I'm citing. So when you DON'T POST SCANS. You aren't actually validating shit. You are operating on "THIRD LOGIC" WHICH IS IN AUTOMATIC "DEFEND ITACHI AT ALL COST" MODE.












> And???? When did I say that Itachi wasn't a criminal? KEEEP UP
> 
> That does not change the fact he was a perfect shinobi. He accepted the full consequences of his actions, and he did not kill them out of hatred or malice, but rather because of a deeper love for his country,  which wasmorally grey. His family was trying to kill Villagers in order to assume power, yet you are comfortable with that because of your bias against Itachi. Unreal.


And where did I accuse of you not citing Itachi was a criminal? Yeah I think you need to either start actually put more effort into responding. But I first think you need to read and respond to what's in front you. You also have this issue of not remembering your original points. If I were to link all the post you provided so far, I'm willing to bet they wouldn't all align.



> Nonsense. All you had to was use 'control find' to find the sentence. I just checked the wikipedia page and the sentence I bolded previously is still there on the site. Concession accepted, since you admitted to not reading the full thing.


Because you read the FULL THING? LMAO, you aren't even willing to read and respond directly to paragraph that's in front of you. And I've think I elaborated on my opinion a little more. So much for not reading.


> Itachi fits into one of the definitions of pacifisim listed on that same webpage.


Except he doesn't. Why didn't you address this:

"But it doesn't matter as Itachi himself "(You can't KEEP UP if you are not willing to accept ITACHI WAS A HYPOCRITE....)"

Did you think I would forget my point, like you? I'm fucking IpHr0z3nI, I can remember my points quite well. And what I don't remember I do my homeword.



> Shows you are too biased to actually address the evidence I cited, and instead only looked at the evidence that supports your claim. I have the wikipedia page screenshotted and bookmarked, and mind you, the wikipedia page is not the only website that says the same thing. You clearly were not at all thorough in your research of the broad term that is pacifism.


Too biased he states? Yet you didn't address my rebuttal to that stance.



> Itachi simply threatened Danzo because he knows how shady Danzo is dude. This is common sense. Danzo is the same guy that drove Shisui to suicide. Of course Itachi threatened him to keep his promise to not hurt Sasuke, because that was part of the condition on which Itachi killed his clan. It's about holding up your end of the deal. Itachi's love for Sasuke is slightly >Konoha,  nothing new. Still doesn't change the fact that Itachi sacrificed everything else he cared about in exchange for protecting his government, the least they could do was keep his brother alive. Itachi was even willing to take full blame for everything.


Lol, now who looks bias. How did Itachi threatened Danzo? You failed to address that. Was it with bodily harm? Or was it with threatening the safety of the village? But, but the Uchiha's coup would have lead to war. And what do you think Itachi selling out Konoha's secrets to every hostile village would have produced?

Lol, just, just....Stop it... What are you trying to prove by putting yourself out like this...

ON TO MY SECOND ACT.


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## Santoryu (Jul 16, 2019)

Wow.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 16, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> You cited a video that PROVES MY POINT. Fugaku himself said the clan was ITCHING FOR BLOOD. *He convinced his clan that the Konoha government was mistreating them. They agreed on that much. The only difference is Fugaky was relying on Itachi ( who he didn't even know that ITachi was loyal to Konoha the whole time, as I already stated)  for a POTENTIALLY bloodless solution.* And even then his plan was highly optimistic. He thinks he can just walk into Hiruzen's office, restrain them and the other elders physically or through genjutsu, and negotiate terms? Do you have any idea how nonsensical that is? Danzo would be the first to object. Battle is breaking out, as Fugaku himself admitted. And it won't end without blood. That's for DAM SURE.


When you post like this, you do know it hard for you to KNOW...GET A RESPONSE BECAUSE I HAVE TO GO BACK AND READ WHAT YOU CUT OUT. IT MAKES ME HAVE TO WORK HARDER, BUT DEAL HOW.

I cited a video that PROVES YOUR POINT? NO, BABY BOY....WHAT DID YOU SAY ABOUT FUGAKU?

"That means all were complicit, even if Fugaku was the mastermind. *He clearly had convinced the other Uchiha of his revolutionary ideals.* You wonder why I'm not posting scans when you yourself has posted all relevant scans already, just failed to interpret them correctly in the context of all available information."

So let me get this straight because I want you to LEARN WHAT PLAYING WITH IpHr0z3nI LEADS TO.

Did you actually watch the video....I don't think the video showcases FUGAKU SPEAKING TO ANYONE BUT ITACHI... It also showcases THAT HE WAS HIDING SOMETHING FROM THE CLAN. So I honestly think you are starting to actually waist my time. AND I DON'T LIKE MY TIME BEING WASTED. You accuse me of not fully reading something that would have probably taken 15 minutes.(Most of it irrelevant to what you arbitrating) Yet you couldn't fully watch a four minute clip, that attempts to even give a point of view that's NOT JUST ITACHI'S...And you wounder why I have to do this your fanbase? It's because you are willing to shit on any other Uchiha that isn't Itachi. Fugaku doesn't even have much a voice. Yet the little we get of him, you don't acknowledged it if it screws with your IMAGE OF ITACHI.

Since you clearly do not understand how the position of LEADER OF THE UCHIHA'S WORK. Let me spell out again.... No where is it implied that Fugaku had to convince the Uchiha's they were being mistreated.  and  both came into defense of the Uchiha side of things. And Note: The issues with the Uchiha started LONG, LONG before Fugaku's time.(There's more to it than that, but I'm afraid if I provided you with the details, you won't read it anyway....SO WHY WAIST MY TIME)

And you don't have to believe if it would work or not...Just as I don't have to believe the coup would have lead to a civil War, and a Civil War would turn into a World War. I posted that video because it showcases that Fugaku is SMART. And worthy of being both ITACHI AND SASUKE'S FATHER. I also showcased it to show you, that YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THE UCHIHA'S PLANNED TO PULL OF THE COUP... And I also wanted to showcase to you that without Itachi's aid....Fugaku had nothing. Whether he didn't believe he could succeed without Itachi, or whether he wasn't willing to act against his own son. Who knows. But if we were to take all of Fugaku's actions in the chapter "Sasuke and His Father," it's more than enough evidence to point to the later. Either way what I said earlier lies true....

"If there is a Naruto afterlife, and the members of the Naruto verse all ended up in the same place. It's not going to be Itachi that has to justify his actions to the Uchiha. It's going to be Fugaku that going to be questioned if he truly did his BEST JOB, as the clans leader."




> And how dishonest are you? Obito and Itachi beat down the uchiha clan at NIGHT TIME, with an ambush that likely killed many of them in their sleep from the inside.


Am I dishonest? You do know what the word means right? Where did I ever go into detail in regards to how the Uchiha died? And judging from the only picture we have of the scene..... Considering Sasuke was out, it MAY.....IT MAY.......Not have been necessarily BEDTIME for the Uchihas.



> Obito could easily infiltrate dude to Kamui. And no one, not even Itachi's father, had suspected Him to be loyal to Konoha up to that point.


Then you need to post an actual argument for that sir... I've already arbitrated my position to showcase he probably knew.
You've yet to do anything, but post BASELESS BULLSHIT.


> They picked off many uchiha in their sleep in their quarters, unsuspectingly. Itachi and Obito then would have had to take on a large but manageable amount of the uchiha police force in head on head battle.


Yeah, where are you getting this information dude? It's not in the manga. And I'm quite sure the anime and novel only expands on the situation so MUCH.


> Even Hiruzen, Danzo, and some anbu would have achieved something similiar but with  much higher difficulty, given the leaf can't infiltrate the uchiha as easy as Obito and Itachi could for obvious reasons.


When you can provide me evidence of Uchiha even putting up a fight...Then come holler at your boy...



> And just because Fugaku may have had suspicions about Itachi's loyalty, doesn't mean he didn't hope for Itachi to come through and show loyalty to his family. If Fugaku was willing to change, then he would have done so way ahead of time.


You missed point..... PANEL IS THE ONLY THING THAT NEEDS TO BE SAID. If that's not convincing enough. Then I WAN'T YOU TO READ THIS ALOUD SO YOU COULD.....




I don't follow your logic.....If we have clear evidence to showcase Itachi giving up on the CLAN PRE-MASSACRE.
Then why aren't you willing to accept the possibility that FUGAKU GAVE UP ON TRYING TO GET ITACHI TO SIDE WITH THE CLAN? The question was never about FUGAKU CHANGING. YOU FORGET WHAT HE IS. HE REPRESENTS: THE CLAN. HE COULD DO NO MORE THAN WHAT  ARBITRATED . It's implied that the position is more of a democratic one. Much like the position of Hokage. And while one Hokage to appoint another one. It's the people that still has to approve. .......

And I love how you place the responsibility of changing solely on Fugaku....Itachi was the one with ties to both. He was that knew the movies that were being made on sides. It whether you want to accept it as canon or not...You will today....

READ SASUKE'S WORDS.


Which means communication between Itachi and Fugaku broke down long before Itachi made his decision.

You also forget that Itachi's position was higher than even FUGAKU'S...""




> ROFL. You are comparing genjutsu based mind control to generic manipulation. Wow just wow. Sasuke still has a mind of his own and is free to interpret things as he likes.


You may want to read your boy Itachi's words before getting your ASS HANDED TO YOU FOR THE UMPTEEN MILLION TIME.


And that was said in regards to a 16 year old Sasuke. We're not talking about the 7 year old Sasuke.....That quote on quote (If you are so against using panel....YOU MIGHT WANT TO START DOING SO....BECAUSE I THINK I'VE DONE ENOUGH TO SHOWCASE TO YOU JUST WHAT YOU'RE UP AGAINST)




> ]If I tell you to jump off a bridge are you gonna do it? Christ, I hope not dude. Seriously. Even  Sasuke didn't even kill Naruto at VOTE1 because he had enough common sense to know it wasn't the right thing to do if he was gonna hope to be more 'moral' than Itachi. Itachi wanted to be killed for his actions, not hard to grasp.


 if I was a seven year old child.........

You know why I keep responding to you? Because I want to see how far that ITACHI BIAS IS WILLING TO GO....

So on one hand you aren't willing to credit to FUGAKU'S WISDOM/INTELLECT despite him being the father of BOTH ITACHI AND SASUKE. Despite showcasing evidence that.....He is worthy of such consideration...

Yet.

When it comes to Sasuke, and not even TEEN SASUKE at that, who is INNOCENT OR ITACHI'S WORDS "PURE" you are willing to give him GIVE HIM ALL THE "COMMON SENSE" in the world to go against Itachi's actions...When even Adult Sasuke still has allot of Itachi influence in his character...(YOU ARE LOOKING BAD Mr. THIRD.....)





> OMG. Unreal. You missed the scenario for if Tobi DOESNT DIE. Then Sasuke learns the truth. Tobi himself thought that Amaterasu was Itachi's last trick.  It's CALLED CONTINGENCIES. PREPARING FOR THE UNEXPECTED. ITS CALLED WISDOM. Itachi believed that Obito was Madara uchiha. And Obito admitted he had secrets hidden from Itachi. And in the event that Tobi didn't die or died, doesn't matter, Itachi kept an EXTRA CARD in the back on off chance Sasuke awakens his MS down the line, say from the death of any friend he meets. We are talking about a world where Edo tensei exists, yet you think its impossible for Sasuke to learn the truth about the massacre from people who have already died. Unreal man, unreal. And nothing was stopping Sasuke from plucking Itachi's eyes from his corspe man. Use common sense here. Eyes in naruto can be preserved through a variety of methods, you only have to look toward how Obito kept Nagato's rinnegan preserved in ice iirc.



Once again...Read before you respond...

"If Tobi dies, then who oh who is going to tell Sasuke anything? The only one's that knew the truth were Danzo, Sarutobi, The Elders, Tobi, and itachi. Two of those options were dead Mr. Third. And considering Danzo thought Itachi had betrayed Konoha by telling Sasuke, it's safe to assume . And without Sarutobi or Itachi there to protect him....There's nothing stopping Danzo from killing Sasuke. Especially considering he would not have access to the Mangekyo, as that required Sasuke to learned the truth about Itachi.

And who's to say Sasuke wouldn't have ever activated MS? The AUTHOR Mr. Third....""  And I'm afraid you are putting the cart before the horse. Without Tobi, who would have been there to implant Itachi's eyes? Better yet, you've still have yet to explain how Sasuke would have unlocked his Mangekyou. And damn the, "he wouldn't have encountered an emotional trauma?" When the verdict is still out on if Sasuke would have even lived that long. He literally had no reason to live after Killing Itachi, except to continue his path of revenge, as there was still Obito. But we are operating under the assumption that Tobi is dead. So I we're back to square one. What reason was there for Sasuke to live? And even if Naruto and company would have even given him one, what's to stop Danzo from completing his Uchiha Genocide plan?

I'm making a tons of assumption? But I'm afraid I didn't make any assumptions at all, outside of the obvious ones. It's you that have some explaining to do. As it's you that has to explain a scenario where Obito/Tobi is out of the picture. It is you that has to explain how is Sasuke supposed to achieve everything he had gained under Obito's/Tobi's tutelage. I think it's Itachi who didn't have a clear "LONG TERM" Strategy."

I don't think your response FULLY addresses the response you are responding too...MR.

You need to learn to remember your points.....The paragraph strictly refers to if things have gone as Itachi planed....You essentially just given me what Canonically happened.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 16, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Not at all. Itachi was revived against his will and forced to fight Naruto. If itachi didn't use Koto, then either him or Nagato would have solo'd Bee and Naruto. He had no choice there. *And just goes to show you how having the contingency in the FIRST PLACE came in handy for a situation that was separate from Itachi's original intent.*


Oh how I love how you try to spin any and everything to make Itachi look good.

Did initially plan to utilize Koto on himself? Yeah I think he intended to utilize that fail safe on Sasuke......It doesn't matter the situation...As like with all the other "contingencies" Itachi failed. And he was forced to CHANGE TO ACCOMMODATE SASUKE.

You do know this portion of my post was part of a larger one?
(I'm going to speed through this portion of your post because I believe I'd showed and prove how Itachi fans just don't add up to Sasuke fans)






> Wow you're becoming very arrogant with nothing to back it up lol.


So you think you are winning? Do you need me to remind you just how far from your original stance you are? I'm always arrogant, and I believe I showcased ALL THROUGHOUT THIS THREAD THAT I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE...Prove me wrong Mr. Third...I'm still waiting for you to get on the board.



> Concession accepted.


Says the guy who still trying to show and prove that deserve the mantle of Itachi fan?



> Sasuke had access to friends and people who cared about him.


Did you even remotely read what I said? The story doesn't begin until 5 years after the massacre...And Sasuke began the  no different than how he was as a .
.


> Ino and Sakura BOTH liked him.


But Sasuke wasn't interested, so your point is futile.

And once again this takes place 5 years after the massacre.

And we know how Sasuke's life was between the massacre and becoming a member of team 7.(Which is why I took the liberty to showcase that from both Naruto's and Sasuke's perspective...CONCESSION ACCEPTED!)



> And I like how you just straight up ignore the complexity of Itachi's character and predicament. his love for Sasuke was slightly > Konoha. He still CARED about Konoha, and had a mission to do.


So now we have begun to actually try to attempt and arguably play down Itachi's love for Sasuke?CONCESSION ACCEPTED

I don't think the term SLIGHTLY was utilized anywhere. But you welcome to look for it...BUT WE BOTH KNOW YOU'RE NOT GOING TO FIND IT..But I can find multiple panels that dismisses the SLIGHTYLY..And you wounder why I'm so arrogant? It's because I know BOTH CHARACTERS Mr. Third...



> Hiruzen told him to keep an eye on the Akatsuki, and he had a pact with Obito. So he doesn't have the time to be with Sasuke the way you are implying. He can't make  good friends because he is listed in the bingo book as an S rank traitor and genocider, on TOP of being in the akasuki.


Pardon me, but isn't Akatsuki a group? That work in you know....TEAMS. It's safe to say Itachi had to play the role of an S class criminal. .


> He was cited for killing his family, friends, and lover. Who on earth would want to be friends/ lovers of a guy FAMOUS for stabbing almost all of them in the back?




And would you please drop the lovers aspect of the argument? Sasuke didn't get his first lover until when......Between the Naruto: The Last and Boruto? You bringing it up is almost pointless.




> How dense are you?


And how desperate are you? I'm still trying to figure out why you haven't conceded the argument yet. Despite me obviously having more knowledge all all things Uchiha's than you?



> Sasuke had NOTHING of the sort attached to his name.


Yet he was still lonely between the time of the massacre and forming team 7.

And I'd reiterate your own question to you...How DENSE ARE YOU? You don't quite seem to comprehend that Sasuke didn't have much social skills prior to team 7. The clan was isolated. And thus Mom, Dad, and Itachi, was all he knew. All he ever wanted really. You can't just take all of that and expect him to cope. Do you even know Sasuke's character? Because you are foolish to try to enter this topic if you don't....Think I'm just coming with these  ...(Clearly Sasuke was wary about making bonds, as the fear of losing them......I wounder who HURT HIM SO MUCH......




> He was considered the innocent survivor of a horrible patricide, and people sympathized with him back in part one.


And you still haven't attempted to tell me how does this remotely equate to Sasuke making FRIENDS.



> Get this BS out of here.


But the only person giving BS is the one NOT MAKING MUCH OF ARGUMENT AT ALL.
You keep listing the unnecessary babble, but you haven't exactly made much of a case on your side.



> And Sasuke most certainly played with naruto and others a a friend. He was 6 years old and lacked a clan.


He was seven, and I already posted panel showcasing him and Naruto both regretting not befriending each other earlier. You need to learn to crawl before you walk. You can't just ignore something, talk shit, and not expect to get BACK SMACKED WITH THE SAME SHIT YOU IGNORED.
"Then why oh why do we have  -  -  after the ....Which only tells the same story of Naruto does: ----had-."



> There was no one else to socialize with.  Even naruto who was alone, found ways to fit in.


You ignore that Naruto and Sasuke's were technically each others first friend....Which is why the former went to hard to the later....And their friendship didn't blossom to after they became team 7.



>


Now if you can only showcase this same effort with your attempts to "Meme" in you know....Actually finding panel to support your points. If you are owning someone...TRUST ME....You can do it words.














> This is beyond stupid. Who the fuk cares if Oro is a better teacher than Kakashi?  His end goal was to TAKE SASUKE's Body. Oro had no reason to train Sasuke to the point where Sasuke would be too strong for Oro to take over. That happened due to plot, and Oro's sickness.


And you said my response was beyond stupid? Yet you attempted to ADDRESS FOUR THINGS AT ONCE...And manage not debunk one.

What does Oro's health have to do with any of my points? Good god, why? Why ARE YOU WASTING MY TIME? My motto is to treat all poster with respect. If you took the decency to type it...Then the highest respect I can show is to read it. But good god you are making me question everything...BUT YOU ARE FUNNY, I'LL GIVE YOU THAT.




> Sasuke himself admitted he would have lost to healthy Oro. And Oro has never needed to train his body transfer hosts in order to transfer over his skills and abilities to them. Sasuke survived because of PLOT ARMOUR.


Good god what does have to do with anything...

Are you trying to be Itachi now.....Trying to create so many "contingencies" hoping one of them to stick? The only person health I brought up was Itachi's...And how Sasuke didn't have his entire life to KILL ITACHI....(So let me double check if this is relevant to anything I posted there.....NOPE... I still don't know what the fuck you are responding to)



> And I call BS, Kakashi isn't the only teacher Sasuke had access to. He had a whole village. We have seen Naruto consulting Asuma for help when learning rasenshuriken for example.


That's nice and all, but how does that trump Oro? Note: Naruto was trained by a Legendary Sannin for three years prior to meeting Asuma. As was Sakura. Oro gave Sasuke the Curse Seal, which enhanced his power greatly. You know the very CS that Sasuke utilized heavily prior to obtaining the MS? Please if you going to hit the "Post Reply" button. Please make sure you have solid argument.




> And lol at you misinterpreting Kakashi's words, not surprisng at this point. Kakashi himself is seen trying to kill Itachi TWICE.


How am I twisting Kakashi's words? I don't think it's any leeway to interpret Kakashi's statement to Sasuke anyway...
And Kakashi tried to kill Itachi in part 1 do to the later invading the former's village as a missing Nin. In part 2, Itachi was a clone, and if I recall directly those clones were dispatch to by time to finish extracting Shukaku from Gaara.

Either way your argument is pointless, as Sasuke ultimately went to Oro.



> He is totally okay with Sasuke killing itachi, sufficient revenge isn't something that defines the reasoning for it, as revenge clouded Sasuke's judgement, as we clearly saw.


I don't think the issue was just Sasuke killing Itachi....I think the issue was his obsession with it...Besides there's no way you can interpret the following other than what cited..."" of course he elaborated why....And you know what...!(But what do I know I'm just some arrogant guy, who likes to STICK TO PANEL oppose to MAKE UP MY OWN BS)



> Itachi was already in the bingo book for his actions. Sasuke had every right to kill him. Kakashi never denied that.


_Sigh  _I'm not going to go back and forth with you over something that CANON AS KAKASHI'S WORDS. How do you blatantly ignore PANEL THAT ARBITRATES THE AGAINST THE VERY THING YOU ARE TRYING TO SPEW? And you call me arrogant?






> Concession accepted.


You utilize the words to loosely...Let's see if your argument even addresses my points this time, first.





> Ignoring the fact that Revenge/hatred does not have to be only thing that defines sasuke's character.


Ignoring Revenge/hatred was the only thing that defined his character for a good portion of the manga?(You can't go this far just defend your fav mate...It doesn't work like that. Canon is Canon. We not discussing if Sasuke could've took a different route. He didn't, so why oh why is this your angle of attack?)


> Itachi never said that. He said Sasuke lacked hatred. Never told Sasuke to break his bonds.


Good god take the Itachi Cock out your mouth.....And learned to accept the mistakes of your character.

Itachi already stated, ""

And I think you need to reread the final  of the Uchiha Massacre between , when(Of course we know that he didn't kill Shisui, but Itachi response only alluded that he did) Did Itachi have tell Sasuke to break bonds directly, or did he GIVE TO HIM IN "SONG".........Everything Itachi took that night was a BOND; MOM? Check. DAD? Check, again. The Uchiha clan? Check Itachi himself? Definitively check....And finally Shisui? Not necessray a bond of Sasuke, but a bond of Itachi. (Keep in mind this occurred Sasuke at seven)(Also keep in mind that Itachi was essentially the only guide he had to draw on for power for A HOT MINUTE)(Even Hebi Sasuke outside of the MS incorporated allot of Itachi's fighting style)

But please oh please with "CONCESSION ACCEPTED" propaganda...You just only telling me that you just how ignorant of these Uchihas you are



> Sasuke came to that conclusion by his dumbass self. You can have hatred and Keep your bonds.


Oh my, you resort to calling a 7 year old dumb? For following his big brothers path to power...
I'm well over the age of 7, and I still listen to by big brothers for advice in regards to things he's better than me in.

Sasuke was doing best to mimic Itachi's path to power.....Which is evidence in their final tandem against Kabuto.....They were almost always in sync. Despite never fighting together in YEARS.



> Raikage hated Sasuke for "killing" Bee and wanted him dead at the FKS. Does that suddenly mean that he cut his bond with his right hand man Darui in of itself? of course not. Sasuke is an idiot.


I don't think Raikage was Sasuke's older brother, mate....(You aren't even trying anymore.....You are just.....I don't know what you're doing anymore.







> Dude, Sasuke said that Itachi was supposed to kill Sasuke but chose not to. We learn LATER that that is RETCONNED by Danzo HIMSELF saying that Itachi can save his younger brother. How is this hard to understand? i never said that Itachi didn't care about sasuke.


(Let's see if this part of your post align with my own)
Dude, who knew the Mission Mr. Third Danzo or Sasuke? Obito or Sasuke? Sarutobi or Sasuke?  If you would have only read your fav response you'd note that never intended to kill Sasuke...PERIOD. You talk about me disrespecting Itachi, yet you don't quite seem to be found of his TRUTH, at all? And how is that later contradicting the former "Genius" with the Danzo fight occured before the meeting between Sasuke and Edo Itachi? Perhaps you should learn to post more panel instead of more "MEME" faces...(I'm still waiting on you to get on the board?)




> Lol no. Edo Itachi had the option to use izanami on Sasuke in order to change his fate. But he chose not to. He saved that task for Naruto, even before he encountered Sasuke by chance. He told Naruto that he entrusted him to take care of Sasuke. And in the end, it was naruto that had to beat the shit of Sasuke to get him to actually change his ways for good.






Do you even know how Izanami works? Of course you don't because you obviously didn't opt to read it...
"The technique is used  to teach people not to rely on a jutsu..But accept their own destiny"


(You should really, really, learn to start utilize panel Mr. Third)




> And don't say that I called Itachi omniscient ever again. I NEVER said that shit. You aren't even reading half of what I'm saying.


Oh I'm reading... Trust me...I'm reading.





> I acknowledge that Itachi made mistakes and grew from them.


I haven't seen you acknowledge any mistake of Itachi's....All I seen you do is criticize Sasuke for "BEING ITACHI'S YOUNGER BROTHER" if you get my drift.





> Doesn't change he was already a grown ass man at age 14.


Yet has to be chased down by BABY BRO, AND BRIBED TO TELL HIM THE TRUTH.





> Even as adults, we still experience character development, and I am speaking from experience here.


Then why don't showcase some character development by you know "USING PANEL TO SUPPORT YOUR ARGUMENTS"


> But this concept seems difficult for you to grasp.


The only thing that's hard for me the grasp....Is you really, really, thinking you understand these characters better than me?

But DEAL HOW...Why do you assume he's grown just because he did what he did at the age of 14??"I understand him we were both played with by the shinobi world. And we can't forgive or acknowledge ourselves."

You have every right to your opinion. And I can't change that. But I have every right to mine, as well. I don't think the situation as it played out Itachi was depicted to be the grown up the situation. He was a prodigy, and both the Uchiha and the village tried to exploit that. But he still had a bit of growing to do. As evidence in all things DEALING WITH SASUKE.
GG Mr. Third GG...


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Jul 16, 2019)

You legit said Nagato didn't exist as a character in part one when we see him calling The Akatsuki to a meeting. I stopped reading there and then skimmed the rest of your points, , as well as when you cited a statement of Itachi LYING to Kisame about Jiraiya's level of power in order to protect him and Naruto, as well as facilitate his subsequent retreat from Jiraiya, which even Kisame was surprised about. Kisame was not at all impressed by Jiraiya's abilities once he saw him in person, and believed Itachi's power should have been sufficient to defeat him. I LEGIT SAID THIS IN A PREVIOUS POST.

I will go through and quote your replies when you concede to the fact that the Uchiha were planning a coup. When you do that, only then will I type out a 3 post long post, otherwise you are right, we are wasting each others time, because at this rate, I'm gonna have to type out 4 posts all at once just to fit in all the words I need to debunk you, since you refuse to concede to points and also keep adding new ones that need to be debunked, on top of flat out forgetting things I stated previously and neglect to include them in your counterarguments. 

And don't think I have forgotten about you. you are that the same person who dishonestly claimed that the Totsuka blade origninated with Itachi when I showed you canon evidence otherwise that the blade was found, and you vehemently denied it. I showed you Itachi wielding a Susano'o  tanto blade as an Edo which was distinct from the Totsuka Blade that Black Zetsu and Oro was looking for.  Yet, I still have entertained your arguments here. You have consistently shown bias against Itachi. 

Furthermore, no you didn't read the wiki page in its entirety, yet claim to be all knowing about pacifism.  Your points were debunked. Itachi is opposed to violence, but he will do it in self defense of others. That fits one of the definitions listed. When he threatened Konoha, it was in defense of Sasuke. When he killed his clan, it was in defense of his Village. 








Concede that the uchiha were complicit in planning an coup. 

Concede that Nagato was a real character in Part one. 

Prove you can acknowledge the manga.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 16, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> You legit said Nagato didn't exist as a character in part one when we see him calling The Akatsuki to a meeting. I stopped reading there and then skimmed the rest of your points, , as well as when you cited a statement of Itachi LYING to Kisame about Jiraiya's level of power in order to protect him and Naruto, as well as facilitate his subsequent retreat from Jiraiya, which even Kisame was surprised about. Kisame was not at all impressed by Jiraiya's abilities once he saw him in person, and believed Itachi's power should have been sufficient to defeat him. I LEGIT SAID THIS IN A PREVIOUS POST.


Why oh why are you so selective in what you want to discuss. Why does it matter if or if he didn't exist. Does it help your overall argument? Did Itachi follow his orders? Is Itachi a pawn of Akatsuki or Konoha? Please oh please I need to know.

And if you whether or not Itachi was Lying to Kisame about Jiraiya power level is relevant, as regardless he failed to follow protocol. Which means I'm opting to believe   as to why he was in Konoha to begin with.(You just don't want to believe he was there solely for Sasuke's sake, and I don't know why) And furthermore you can't do this. You cannot pick and choose, which Itachi statement you want to absolve as the truth, and which one's you want to dismiss as him lying.



> I will go through and quote your replies when you concede to the fact that the Uchiha were planning a coup. When you do that, only then will I type out a 3 post long post, otherwise you are right, we are wasting each others time, because at this rate, I'm gonna have to type out 4 posts all at once just to fit in all the words I need to debunk you, since you refuse to concede to points and also keep adding new ones that need to be debunked, on top of flat out forgetting things I stated previously and neglect to include them in your counterarguments.


Did I ever argue against the Uchiha's planning a coup?(That's another example as to why I don't think you are reading half of what I posted) And if your example of going through replies is the BS you churned out in your last effort, then save it. As you clearly aren't even replying to half of what's being brought before you. You attempt to group together response out of sheer "lazyness," which results in me having to waist extra effort to decipher what you are and what you are not addressing. And half the time your response isn't addressing anything. And you haven't debunk shit. Which is why you been jumping from one tangent to the next. And I'll concede to a point, when you actually make one. You haven't arbitrated anything, but opinion. And half of those times the opinion is being contradicted by canon. Prime example is we have Kakashi telling Sasuke to stop his revenge. And instead of you taking that as face value, you opt to argue against it, with NOTHING BUT SHEER NONSENSE.

And what are things you previously said, sha'll I go down the laundry list? You begin with, Itachi "low diff'd his brother while dying of a terminal ilness and still made it look like sasuke won." And when I reply that CANON invalidates that you move on something in regards "Grown men can cry," and when I bring the fact that shinobi much not show their emotion. Then you move on to SHIT YOU CAN'T VALIDATE SUCH AS, "FUGAKU NOT KNOWING WHAT ITACHI WAS PLOTTING" despite me showcasing strong evidence to argue such. I could go on and on, but you seem to have forgotten your position from jump. The argue was never about you proving "Itachi was a grown ass man at the age of 14," the topic was to showcase to me that you know more about Itachi's character than I do. You failed over, and over again at that...The only thing you kinda had a legitimate argument was the whole Pacifism thing, but when I brought up Itachi was also willing to risk Konoha going to war if Sasuke was harmed, you didn't address it. So please oh please, if you are going to make excuses about me not conceding points, etc. etc. Please note if you actually examine my responses as a total, you'd note that I've never shifted my argument. I also introduced new tangents in response to you bringing up new tangents. I actually adapted to you, more than you did to me. And more importantly I'VE NEVER CHEATED YOU ON MY RESPONSES. I almost addressed every point you had line by line. And I always had a link or two, to validate my argument.



> And don't think I have forgotten about you. you are that the same person who dishonestly claimed that the Totsuka blade origninated with Itachi when I showed you canon evidence otherwise that the blade was found, and you vehemently denied it.


And you see where the problem lies? Where is this evidence? Because I'm aware of everything in regards to Itachi. You haven't provided me anything to showcase the blade was found. And I remember my response to you quite vividly. I said if you were to believe that...Then you were to believe that Itachi, out of all the Susanos, was the weakest when he first unlocked it. Because we've seen Sasuke's come with weapons.... We've seen Madara's Susano'o come with weapons. Hell we even see Obito's PS come with weapons.(You started off saying to me that I'm disrespecting Itachi...But you show even more disrespect by trying to paint him as "Special" among a of a clan that are touted to be "Special" The minute you learn to love Itachi for being Itachi and accept that. Is the minute you even attempt to think you to come at @me when it's quite clear I'm more adequate about these Uchiha's than YOU.)




> I showed you Itachi wielding a Susano'o  tanto blade as an Edo which was distinct from the Totsuka Blade that Black Zetsu and Oro was looking for.


We've seen Sasuke's Susano'o wield several weapons, I don't quite understand how Itachi's Susano'o wielding something that's not Totsuka implies Totsuka was found. And your argument stops at Oro was LOOKING FOR IT. But did he find it? Maybe because he didn't quite understand what he was looking for. Maybe such a thing was a feature of someone else Susano'o prior to. Just like Tobirama alluding to seeing  before. I mean look at ...Does it look like something independent from Susano'o? Considering it has the same color scheme, in addition to being composed of chakara that the rest of his Susano'o. To further dismiss your BS argument...Where and when did Itachi even find the time? To go "weapon hunting for Susano'o"? Considering he was tasked with quote on quote "Infiltrating Akatsuki and acting as Konoha spy"

You really, really don't think before you type...You have no "contingency" plan in case your argument gets COUNTERED, HARD.



> Yet, I still have entertained your arguments here. You have consistently shown bias against Itachi.


Consistently showed bias against Itachi, A? I'm the one who's actually trying to incorporate all aspects in regards to his character, to his you know, his character. The only thing I cited about Itachi is he is a "Mess" and the reason I arbitrated that is because the character he "Boo'd" up with "Sasuke" is arguably a "Mess"

What did I say earlier to Itachi fans at large? "Please stick to aspects "YOU WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE" about your favorite used to...."

You show him a bigger disgrace you've actively declared that he only cared about Sasuke "SLIGHTLY MORE" than he cared about Konoha. When that isn't even remotely true.

Also @Hussain  Thanks...I'm not the first or ONLY ONE to point out inconsistencies in Itachi's character.



Hussain said:


> his "plans" & and actions are retarded?
> 
> > oh Sasuke-chan, please do kill Naruto (Konoha's only Jinchuuriki, and the 4th Hokage's son)
> > and don't forget to become a criminal and run away from the village
> ...


Although some of this can been written off as more "Kishi" than Itachi.... Allot of it still has some merit. Hell allot of this I brought up and instead of you acknowledging that the problem exist in Itachi, you opt to make excuses as "Sasuke should have known better"



> Furthermore, no you didn't read the wiki page in its entirety, yet claim to be all knowing about pacifism.  Your points were debunked. Itachi is opposed to violence, but he will do it in self defense of others. That fits one of the definitions listed. *When he threatened Konoha, it was in defense of Sasuke.* When he killed his clan, it was in defense of his Village.


Already addressed the pacifism...And I never proclaimed once I knew all about it....I just arbitrated I knew enough to arbitrate Itachi isn't one. I also pointed out earlier that you might've had me there, if Itachi didn't active threaten Konoha with WAR HIMSELF if harm were to ever come to Sasuke. I also pointed out that Sasuke actively threatened Konoha too, yet Itachi did nothing. If you want to label him any sort of pacifism. Then please acknowledge that he didn't showcase that same "energy" in regards to every situation. But the "*BOLD*" WOULD VIOLATE EVEN YOUR DEFINITION OF PACIFISM.

Note: What you put "*Some however, support physical violence for emergency defence of self or others"
*
That is not necessarily a spin off of the original definition of pacifism: Which is "a person who believes that war and violence are unjustifiable." That's just a "CONTINGENCY" for the violence part and the violence part alone. Your statement doesn't debunk the "A person believes that war........is unjustifiable." So Itachi didn't just threatened Konoha, it in the defense of Sasuke. He threatened Konoha with WAR, if Sasuke was to ever be harmed. It funny that you accuse me of not reading something entirely, WHICH WOULD HAVE LITERALLY TAKING ME ABOUT 20 MINUTES.(Just so I can find this statement) Yet you did not fully understand the what you posted yourself. So maybe it's you who need o further do your homework.




>


A link isn't just that if it's not being applied to anything....What are you trying to arbitrate? What are you trying to debunk?




> Concede that the uchiha were complicit in planning an coup.


I don't think I ever denied it? However I did attempt to go into detail about it. I did attempt to address that their coup may or may not have necessarily equated to a civil war.(I was trying to give a voice to the voiceless)



> Concede that Nagato was a real character in Part one.


I don't think I ever had a problem in conceding it....I just attempted to ask why does it matter.



> Prove you can acknowledge the manga.


Yes, yes...Because posting two panel of the manga outweighs me posting at least 30+? Yeah you it's you that needs to acknowledge the manga more than I.

Further more... You still have yet to prove to me that you are a true Itachi fan, and not just WANKER TO HIS AESTHETICS, you've yet to acknowledge his flaws...Acknowledge things that he couldn't do...Things that he could've done better. And just more importantly just how "Boo'd" up to Sasuke character as I arbitrated. I didn't kick your ass by preaching things from an Itachi perspective. I did you dirty by discussing things almost solely from Sasuke's perspective.(As Sasuke has TIES TO EVERY UCHIHA, MATE)


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 17, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Why oh why are you so selective in what you want to discuss. Why does it matter if or if he didn't exist. Does it help your overall argument? Did Itachi follow his orders? Is Itachi a pawn of Akatsuki or Konoha? Please oh please I need to know.
> 
> And if you whether or not Itachi was Lying to Kisame about Jiraiya power level is relevant, as regardless he failed to follow protocol. Which means I'm opting to believe   as to why he was in Konoha to begin with.(You just don't want to believe he was there solely for Sasuke's sake, and I don't know why) And furthermore you can't do this. You cannot pick and choose, which Itachi statement you want to absolve as the truth, and which one's you want to dismiss as him lying.
> 
> ...




Dude, cut the BS. I am NOT typing up 4 posts in a row with maxed out word count a piece debunking your shit.  Do you understand how impractical that is? We are doing this in small  portions now, since you proved to be inept at remembering points, can't follow the large posts for some reason regardless,  and failed to address arguments/ concede. You also put words in my mouth multiple times. Address the arguments that you were ignoring. I never said that I wouldn't address your points, UNLESS you refuse to concede. And you are straight up lying. I acknowledged the things Itachi failed in multiple times. Anyways, I digress. I have kept note of your points, and will address them in due time.

But first, CONCEDE that Nagato sent Itachi and Kisame to Konoha. CONCEDE that Pain was a real character in part One.
I showed you a scan of Itachi saying Akatsuki sent him to Konoha, and his partner, Kisame, DID NOT DISAGREE. So yes, I KNOW Itachi wasn't lying about that, otherwise Kisame would have been suspicious.   I showed you a scan of Nagato recalling how Itachi and Kisame entered Konoha in part one. I showed you a scan of Pain at the end of part one, hairstyle and rinnegan confirmed.  You thus far have shown to be incapable of understanding that Nagato sent Itachi to Konoha, unaware of Itachi's true mission and role in the organization. You are incapable of understanding that Itachi used Nagato's orders as a means to check on Sasuke.   Kisame has no idea who Jiraiya is or what he is capable of outside of his hype as a legendary Sannin. Itachi lies to him about Jiraiya, in order to make his subsequent retreat believable.  Jiraiya isn't beating Itachi and Kisame at the same time while having to worry about Naruto.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> I don't think I ever denied it? However I did attempt to go into detail about it. I did attempt to address that their coup may or may not have necessarily equated to a civil war.(I was trying to give a voice to the voiceless)



This is blatant denial of canon. If you concede that a coup was being planned, then you have to EQUALLY respect the chances of a civil war. A coup is an attempted assassination of government leaders. The government employs something called a MILLITARY. If the coup fails and the uchiha don't smoothly assume power, or better yet, if the coup is interrupted by the hokage calling for reinforcements, then a CIVIL WAR WILL BREAK OUT. You clearly haven't studied Roman history for example. What happened when Julius Caesar was assassinated by the Senators in 44 B.C.? His step son Augusus, Lepdius, and Marc Anthony raised armies and  ended up in CIVIL WAR with Brutus, Cassius, and others. Rome was a bloody mess for about 15 years.


*Spoiler*: _PROOF OF COUP/CIVIL WAR_ 



















We have information from ALL relevant sources that a coup would likely be followed by a civil war, and for obvious reasons. We were also told that the entirety of the Uchiha clan was complicit. CONCEDE OR PROVE THIS WRONG. And you also missed the memo about Fugaku knowing about his son. He outright says he can't read him. And he was also surprised to see that Itachi aligned with the other side when Itachi killed him.

Furthermore, in one of the scans I posted, Hiruzen clearly states that fighting the Uchiha wouldn't be eays, and Danzo is only able to retort him by a suggesting they take the initiative with an AMBUSH from BEHIND.  I.E. A surprise attack. Meaning an actual battle with the uchiha head on could rock the foundations of Konoha as Obito canonically stated.



And Itachi had time to find Totsuka just like Black zetsu and Orochimaru had time to be searching for it. Keep trolling bro. You don't when Itachi found it, so stop making assumptions. We are given a direct canon statement, and you avoid accepting the truth. This is what I'm talking about. Citing other Susano'o users having weapons is irrelevant. Itachi himself has susano'o weapons like yakasa beads and his tanto sword which were completely different from Totsuka and Yata. We were directly told that Itachi's Totsuka in PARTICULAR was a legendary item being sought after by other people. And there you go citing shitty translations again. I showed you the proper VIZ translation, and you still denied it, showing bias.  You are even dishonest about Tobirama as well, as he was showing surprise at Sasuke's level of FLAME CONTROL, showing he has never seen anything like it before. You use bad translations which say he said Kagutsutchi, which is *Amaterasu* flame control. Not at all the same thing.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2019)

A better question would be 

"What makes you think Itachi isn't High-Kage" ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 17, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Dude, cut the BS. I am NOT typing up 4 posts in a row with maxed out word count a piece debunking your shit.  Do you understand how impractical that is? We are doing this in small  portions now, since you proved to be inept at remembering points, can't follow the large posts for some reason regardless,  and failed to address arguments/ concede. You also put words in my mouth multiple times. Address the arguments that you were ignoring. I never said that I wouldn't address your points, UNLESS you refuse to concede. And you are straight up lying. I acknowledged the things Itachi failed in multiple times. Anyways, I digress. I have kept note of your points, and will address them in due time.


Why did you bother quoting me like this....When you already showcased earlier that you aren't capable of addressing any and all my points. You do know it's give and take. You cannot just play offense. Note: You don't see me attempting to try to address multiple points, which may or may not have nothing to do with each other. You went out of your way to type the shit. So at the very least I could do is at least read it.


And you've yet to debunk anything I had to say....A "Responses does not = Debunk," you have to actually address the issue presented before you can officially be quote on quote debunking something. As far as being "impractical," note: the difference between your responses and mine.....DO YOU ACTUALLY THINK I'M CONSIDERING "PRACTICALITY" WHEN I'M ADDRESSING YOU? The length of my post us merely a reflection of what I've been given. Long story short. The more points you raise. The more points I have to address. And since I have to go out of my way to validate my claims with manga. In addition actually making sure I address any an all your argument to avoid you having to re-post things I didn't answer. I think I'm the one being "inconvenienced" here.

Proved inept in remembering your points. And you wounder why I question "Practicality"? You are talking shit without actually showcasing jack. What have you actually validated? Do you even remember why we began this long debate in the first place? Jesus Christ, you aren't going out IpHr0z3nI, IpHr0z3nI, I talk smack because I can back it. I talk smack because I'm willing to go the extra mile and apply the extra effort to address something. There's levels to this shit Mr. Third, whether you acknowledge it or not. And you aren't ON MY LEVEL. But please continue.

And put words into your mouth? What did I arbitrate that you didn't state? YOU CAN NOT DO THIS...YOU CAN NOT JUST MAKE ACCUSATIONS WITHOUT PROOF. And I believe you just spent an entire paragraph that equated to NONSENSE.

YOU SEE HOW THIS WORKS? FOR EVERY LINE YOU MAKE, I HAVE TO ADDRESS. If you simply limit the debate to things YOU KNOW, AND STOP TRYING TO BE ME. THEN MAYBE, MAYBE YOU WON'T GET A 4 POST RESPONSE WHEN YOU ARE CLEARLY NOT ABOUT THAT LIFE.

But if you going address them in due time...You may want to start with your understanding of how Izanami works, followed by how the position of Head of the Uchiha clan works, and please......Just WATCH.



> But first, CONCEDE that Nagato sent Itachi and Kisame to Konoha.


But why, when we already know why Itachi was in Konoha....  KINDA TRUMPS ALL.

The issue with Nagato sent them is....If he did....HE EXPECTED THEM TO CAPTURE KURAMA.

But I'll budge I'll concede to this because I believe I already got your CORNERED.(JUST WATCH)




> CONCEDE that Pain was a real character in part One.


Oh I'll concede that easily....You post of a pick....And despite some Obvious design development later. I can admit that he most certainly had roots in part one.


> I showed you a scan of Itachi saying Akatsuki sent him to Konoha, and his partner, Kisame, DID NOT DISAGREE.


And we already know the true reason why Itachi was in Konoha, so once again if you're so big on "Being Practical"

Let's skip all the BULLSHIT AND GET RIGHT TO THE NITTY GRITTY



> So yes, I KNOW Itachi wasn't lying about that, otherwise Kisame would have been suspicious.


? Wouldn't that be equally suspicious? Kisame didn't know the truth about Itachi, and neither did Nagato.

I don't see how this aspect of your argument has some merit... Because we already know once again....Itachi WAS NOT IN FU##### KONOHA TO CAPTURE NARUTO, PERIOD.



> I showed you a scan of Nagato recalling how Itachi and Kisame entered Konoha in part one.


And I posted you a scan of detailing WHY ITACHI WAS IN KONOHA....

 YOUR ?

Fuck all that...If we you want to keep the post length "PRACTICAL" then let's do that. JUST ANSWER THIS...

WAS ITACHI THERE TO CAPTURE NARUTO OR TO ENSURE SASUKE'S SAFETY? I DON'T WANT TO HERE ANY OTHER ANSWER BUT A DIRECT RESPONSE THIS QUESTION.



> I showed you a scan of Pain at the end of part one, hairstyle and rinnegan confirmed.


That wasn't exactly a Rinnegan, mate.

(Why oh why is this site not letting me post the very same pic)



> You thus far have shown to be incapable of understanding that Nagato sent Itachi to Konoha, unaware of Itachi's true mission and role in the organization.


You thus far have shown to me be incapable of understanding that ITACHI WASN'T IN KONOHA FOR NO NAGATO....But you hit the hammer on the head...."UNAWARE OF ITACHI'S TRUE MISSION AND ROLE IN THE ORGANIZATION"

SO ONCE AGAIN I ASK....


WAS ITACHI THERE TO CAPTURE NARUTO OR TO ENSURE SASUKE'S SAFETY? I DON'T WANT TO HERE ANY OTHER ANSWER BUT A DIRECT RESPONSE THIS QUESTION.

(I ALREADY KNOW THE ANSWER. BUT I JUST WANT TO HEAR YOU ACKNOWLEDGE IT)



> You are incapable of understanding that Itachi used Nagato's orders as a means to check on Sasuke.


LMAO!LMAO!LMAO!

You are incapable of understanding that the details of the former means little to the LATER...

If my goal is to get you to understand that *ITACHI'S EVERYTHING WAS SASUKE*.........HOW IS THE FORMER RELEVANT?



> Kisame has no idea who Jiraiya is or what he is capable of outside of his hype as a legendary Sannin. Itachi lies to him about Jiraiya, in order to make his subsequent retreat believable.


I believe I can already call this check mate....

Because truthfully I don't care if the Jiraiya statement is true or false...Because whether Nagato sent them there is irrelevant. SO ONCE AGAIN.

WAS ITACHI THERE TO CAPTURE NARUTO OR TO ENSURE SASUKE'S SAFETY?



> Jiraiya isn't beating Itachi and Kisame at the same time while having to worry about Naruto.


It doesn't matter because you know, that I know, that you know......THE ENDGAME IS INEVITABLE. What is the only thing Itachi accomplished by coming back to the village....I think I'd believe  ......OVER ITACHI'S ANY DAY. 



> This is blatant denial of canon.


How is it canon, when the actual coup never happened?



> If you concede that a coup was being planned, then you have to EQUALLY respect the chances of a civil war.


Key word there is CHANCE!

What did Itachi state himself back in Sasuke's flashback....""(Itachi's words not mine)

The only thing we know about the coup is that A. The Uchiha were planning it.....B. Fugaku was the MASTERMIND.

I've already provided the ONLY THING WE WILL EVER HAVE, IN REGARDS TO WHAT FUGAKU WAS PLANNING.


(You can dismiss it as something that probably wouldn't of work, but again YOU CAN'T GET PAST IT NEVER GOT A CHANCE TO HAPPEN)

You also can't ignore that DANZO, in which this actual CANON, .(You also attack this idea)

The bottom line is you ignore that I already KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO. You're trying to JUSTIFY ITACHI'S ACTION, AND TURN AN ISSUE THAT IS LARGELY GREY, INTO MORE OF A BLACK AND WHITE ISSUE.(But I'm not going to let you do that. As the Uchiha Fan in me won't let you)



> A coup is an attempted assassination of government leaders.


Just like you told me to do my homework of "Pacifism," you may want to take your own advice.

*means the overthrow of an existing government*; typically, this refers to an illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power by a dictator, the military, or a political faction.[1]
(And word of advice....You don't have to look hard to find what I linked...It's literally the first paragraph) 


> The government employs something called a MILLITARY.


And you are aware that part of Konoha Military strength was the Uchiha themselves. We've actually seen aware play out in the manga. There's no designate military branch...Just Clans.


> If the coup fails and the uchiha don't smoothly assume power, or better yet, if the coup is interrupted by the hokage calling for reinforcements, then a CIVIL WAR WILL BREAK OUT.


Except once again we know the Uchiha's were assassinated by two people...So they probably had a very, very organized plan, so organized that it became the only plan...Except that plan included Itachi. And even if that plan could have gone just as smoothly without Itachi; we know for a fact that Fugaku wasn't willing to go against his .(That's difference between us....All that build up...To only be left to acknowledge MY ENDGAME)




> You clearly haven't studied Roman history for example. What happened when Julius Caesar was assassinated by the Senators in 44 B.C.? His step son Augusus, Lepdius, and Marc Anthony raised armies and  ended up in CIVIL WAR with Brutus, Cassius, and others. Rome was a bloody mess for about 15 years.


And this is relevant to the Uchiha plight how? First of all, you need to understand the meaning of a Coup d'etat, and you need to also understand that the Uchiha clan WASN'T IN A POSITION TO OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT THROUGH MIGHT. They were one of many clans.... We've seen if a single individual, if powerful enough, aka PAIN. They can solo a village. It is clear the Uchiha wasn't working with any individual who had that kinda power.



> IMG
> [


You do know most of your Links are entirely from Konoha point of view, right?
And they are largely irrelevant, as the COUP NEVER HAPPENED.(It never got beyond an Idea)


> We have information from ALL relevant sources that a coup would likely be followed by a civil war, and for obvious reasons.


NOPE....BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING FROM THE UCHIHA PERSPECTIVE and the little we do have points to a CIVIL WAR NEVER BEING IN THE CARDS AT ALL.



> We were also told that the entirety of the Uchiha clan was complicit. CONCEDE OR PROVE THIS WRONG.


We know that is not necessarily the case, as EVEN ITACHI HIMSELF Admitted....


(Which means not even Itachi had essentially exhausted all options)

Also let's not pretend that Danzo didn't have anything to  with the Uchiha Clans death...


I think the only one who needs to concede IS YOU....As you don't even know the definition of a Coup d'etat is.
I also think one of your links cites Shisui specifically stating "When I tried to stop the Coup d'etat using the Koto-Amatsukami Danzo stole my right my right eye."

And I can get really, really into the trenches if you want to discuss the issue of RIGHT AND WRONG REGARDING THE UCHIHA MASSACRE...(But I don't think you want to go there. Because I've seen the ENDGAME OF THAT TOO...THE ITACHI FANS GET MURDERED TO THE POINT WHERE IT'S NO LONGER A LEGITIMATE DISCUSSION)



> And you also missed the memo about Fugaku knowing about his son.


No you missed the memo Fugaku actually knows enough about his son to not only know they are different. But he also knows enough about Itachi to know, "He doesn't like to get close to people."(Which is something even Itachi would later admit to himself)



Also you seem to have forgotten that Itachi  PLAYED HIS . 

And even more damning is Fugaku's final words to Sasuke regarding Itachi, ""

Fugaku doesn't necessarily have to be able to "Read him," as I believe Itachi made his intention quite clear prior to the chapter that scan is taken from. And before you reiterate, but Fugaku had HOPE.... 



> He outright says he can't read him.


So what Itachi's brief breakdown indicates a person has to read him to know his intentions?

How about we apply a little common sense here, you've been active on this board long enough, and I'm quite sure you been in your fair share of debates. Do you necessarily need to be able to "Read People" to know response they are going to churn out? All you need to know is that they aren't on your side. To get a pretty good picture as to where they stand.

This is not that hard...To comprehend. And 590  0 .(Tell me what do you think Fugaku and Mikoto were doing prior to Itachi coming to kill them? Twiddling their thumbs? Trying to put together a speech to persuade Itachi to spare them? Or do they look like BOSSES, and before Itachi could utter anything they cut him off. Then they not only say to him they UNDERSTOOD, they were even able to decipher the Sasuke portion behind his actions.

Come on now...If you going to play with the BIG BOYS....YOU GOT TO BE ABLE TO PIECE TOGETHER EVERYTHING.





> And he was also surprised to see that Itachi aligned with the other side when Itachi killed him.


Now you are just talking because if we are looking at the same panel...I see 0 surprise at all.
But I'm curious to know why you'd think that, as I already laid out my case.



> Furthermore, in one of the scans I posted, Hiruzen clearly states that fighting the Uchiha wouldn't be eays, and Danzo is only able to retort him by a suggesting they take the initiative with an AMBUSH from BEHIND.  I.E. A surprise attack. Meaning an actual battle with the uchiha head on could rock the foundations of Konoha as Obito canonically stated.


_Sigh _And once again that perspective only HIGHLIGHTS KONOHA SIDE OF THINGS....WE DON'T GET MUCH OF THE UCHIHA SIDE. The only thing we have of merit is FUGAKU, and the extra bit the ANIME ADDED.



> And Itachi had time to find Totsuka just like Black zetsu and Orochimaru had time to be searching for it. Keep trolling bro.


Yeah when you can post a panel showcasing Itachi actually looking for Totsuka than you can holler at me. The only one's trolling is you.



> You don't when Itachi found it, so stop making assumptions.


The only assumption being made is on your side.....You are the one proclaiming he found it. I merely proclaiming that it likely came with Susano'o itself. And my evidence to validate that is the later showcasing of other peoples Susano'o; which came with weapons.


> We are given a direct canon statement, and you avoid accepting the truth.


And what is that statement sir? In I quote 

There's nothing canon to suggest that Totsuka just isn't apart of Itachi's Susano'o. He looked for it he can't find it..Maybe because he didn't know what he was looking for to begin with. .(Which is why dismissed it at first as a paper cut)

So what direct statement are you referring to.. Because I've seen it all.




> This is what I'm talking about. Citing other Susano'o users having weapons is irrelevant. Itachi himself has susano'o weapons like yakasa beads and his tanto sword which were completely different from Totsuka and Yata.


And all of the following a manifestation of Susano'o correct? Why wouldn't Totsuka and Yata be any different? Keep in mind Itachi's Susano'o was the first Susano'o to be introduced to the readers. And you probably weren't weren't around back then, but originally when Sasuke first unlocked  Susano'o many arbitrated that it was Totsuka. So that should give you an idea as to how little we understood of Susano'o back then. Keep in mind that after that Sasuke's Susano'o with then go on showcase a bow, that doubles as a shield, arrows. And in  form, he would then to go on in showcase another sword, and shield, which could double as a bow; although I'm not sure how it would fire any arrows given it's more shield than bow in this form, and his own variation of Yasaka Magatama. You argue the issue of me citing other Susanos, but that is why your argument falls flat. Other Susano's, which CAME AFTER ITACHI'S, didn't have to find their weapons. Susano'o came with them. 


> We were directly told that Itachi's Totsuka in PARTICULAR was a legendary item being sought after by other people.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 17, 2019)

Yeah I wiki'd Totsuka, and then I decided to hit the Databook...It mentions something about sacred/spirit...But I've yet to see the term Legendary, but you are welcome to find it for me.(Not that it do much) And the only one's stated to be looking for it was , which I already addressed.

Maybe, maybe a Susano'o having to find it's weapons was an original idea, that probably got recon once Susano'o becomes the accessible to anyone who had a Mangekyo. ? I really don't get what your issue in proving Itachi quote on quote "FOUND HIS WEAPONS" or not, as every other Susano'o has something special going on with their weapons in it's OPTIMAL FORM.(Minus probably Sasuke's PS...Which has showcased that it has very, very potent cutting potential, but has never produced a shock wave to carve a mountain from a distance like Madara's)

Note: Itachi's Susano is the first Susano'o to be introduced to the readers. Note: It's the only Susano'o bar Madara's PS, which is featured in databook 4, to have it's own databook entry. And keep in mind how outdated, much of it is. Susano'o can only be unlocked by wielding Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, etc. etc.



> And there you go citing shitty translations again. I showed you the proper VIZ translation, and you still denied it, showing bias.


A. I provided no scans which means I featured no shitty translation.
B. I actually got VIZ, and the only thing I recall it proven was that it was a variant of the Kusanagi Blade. But so was Sasuke's part 2 sword and it was never implied he had to find it. As an Adult he is clearly wielding a different sword, so that goes to showcase to you that being a variant of the Kusanagi Blade doesn't necessarily make it SOMETHING NOT MANIFESTED BY SUSANO'O ITSELF.(It's largely Hype)

And I think need to learn the definition of Bias, my friend. I'm not the one trying to arbitrate something that is clearly manifested from Susano'o to be something Itachi had to find. Out of some twisted plot to make him seem special. That's what you call BIAS. As I said before let's apply a whittle common sense. Can YOU IMAGINE ITACHI NOT ONLY LOOKING, BUT FINDING SOMETHING THAT CLEARLY MATCHES THE COLOR AND MATERIAL OF SUSANO'O AND EQUIPPING IT THAT VERY SUSANO'O? That's almost FANFICTION to the highest order. And given what we know about Susano'o now, compared to back then. Including every character that has been granted it; IN ALL MEDIAS: Manga, Anime, Video Games. All Susano'o possesses some type of weapon which is completely different than others.(AND NEVER IS IT IMPLIED THAT ONE HAD TO FIND IT)




> You are even dishonest about Tobirama as well, as he was showing surprise at Sasuke's level of FLAME CONTROL, showing he has never seen anything like it before. You use bad translations which say he said Kagutsutchi, which is *Amaterasu* flame control. Not at all the same thing.


A. There's nothing dishonest about using a different translation. I have VIZ, but I only know one site where can post links from.
B. . Unlike the case with Totsuka this isn't mistranslation. This is just an alternate name for Sasuke's second MS ability. Either way my point stands. You are also adding to Tobirama's words. He only stats, "I've never seen such flame control" before.(Which is what I cited the alternative name for Kagutsuchi to be) In this case I don't think having a Viz translation or an alternate translation makes a difference. As if you examine the VIZ translation for chapter 464, which is the official debut of Kagutsuchi. It's not translated as such. It's translated as "Inferno Style! Flame Control," which means they are simply using the alternative name for Kagutsuchi. Thanks, but I don't think I'll stick with viz on this one. Kagutsuchi is not only shorter, it's the name of a Japanese deity god just like the names of most other MS technique.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2019)

Tosuka and Yata Mirror being created by Itachi's Susano is still a hilarious thought. 


Explain how Susano can create a shield with 5 nature formations? 

Explain how Susano create a Sword that has a sealing property? 

With Sasuke's sword, he literally imbued it with Amateratsu so that's not a surprise. Itachi, on the other hand, has no such abilities. 

Use some common sense. Otherwise, tell me why Madara's Susano doesn't have any special abilities? Where are his shield & Special Swords?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 17, 2019)

With how deep itachis dick was down kishimotos dick why would anyone be surprised that people rate him highly


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 17, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> Tosuka and Yata Mirror being created by Itachi's Susano is still a hilarious thought.


Oh I woke up early, just so I could....(WATCH)

No more hilarious than Itachi fans believing he went on a MAGICAL QUEST TO ACQUIRE MAGICAL WEAPONS THAT WERE OBVIOUSLY MADE TO BE WIELDED BY JUST HIS SUSANO'O. But I do love my FanFiction. So I give you the same job as "Mr. Third" find a shred of evidence that hints Itachi had find to do pull any Indiana Jones exploration mission to uncover tools, that all other Susano'o users simply manifested.




> Explain how Susano can create a shield with 5 nature formations?


Probably the same way it's created weapons that are made of enton. Or the same way it's created weapons that created shock-waves which are strong enough to slice through a mountain cleanly. The later variation of Susano'o were hyped as having the destructive capabilities that rival tailed beast. Against all that what's a shield that can wield 5 nature transformation(IN THEORY ONLY; BECAUSE IT SURE AS HELL NEVER DONE ANY OF THAT IN THE ACTUAL MANGA/ANIME)



> Explain how Susano create a Sword that has a sealing property?


 is completely unique from ?(Keep in mind if we were to examine what Totsuka actually seals them to "" it makes Totsuka sound even more of invention hand crafted to suit Itachi. Because he is one of the few characters that would actually care in regards to how person spends their afterlife. "Given the irony of tragic his real life is."



> With Sasuke's sword, he literally imbued it with Amateratsu so that's not a surprise. Itachi, on the other hand, has no such abilities.


So Itachi doesn't have an ability to entrap someone in a GENJUTSU, FOR A LIFE TIME, if he desires; although that life time would only last an instant in the real world? Yeah, if you going to go this far into providing your opinion, YOU MIGHT WANT TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK PRIOR TO....



> Use some common sense. Otherwise, tell me why Madara's Susano doesn't have any special abilities? Where are his shield & Special Swords?


Well Madara for starters never "purchased" the "Full MS Package" therefore he never got the "Royal" treatment in regards to any sharingan abilities. He has no known two prerequisite MS abilities, and the stage we would usually the special abilities , is merely a  for . And his . But for all the questions regarding Madara's PS....We do know that Sasuke's Susano'o which does have the "Bells and Whistles" in his lesser forms.  and Actual  possess no special abilities.()

So if we were to utilize common sense in addition TO ACTUAL MANGA EVIDENCE. I'd say you're wrong in regards to Madara's Susano'o. If we follow the Sasuke model, which keeps things SIMPLE AND CLEAN after manifesting legs. I'd say you are wrong again. 



We see Itachi's Perfect Susano'o wielding a Sword, and while it doesn't appear to be any regular sword. It's certainly no TOTSUKA. And the "always equipped with a shield" aspect is essentially dropped.


Long story short....trying to play the Madara doesn't a special shield or sword argument doesn't apply because  Madara at the stages where such increments are acquired his (clearly does not need a shield to begin with), and also just a stepping stone for PS. Clearly Kishi is more into balancing these Susanos  as much as possible. The smaller the Susano'o the more access to HAX it has at that respective stage... The larger the Susano'o is "HAX" is then replaced with Raw Power. .(Which is probably why it was a temporary idea to begin with, and never added as a Permanent fixture in his arsenal)


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 17, 2019)

This panel alone destroys any notion that Itachi created the Totsuka sword himself. Is this dude trolling

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Jul 17, 2019)

Probably because Itachi is often depicted as stronger than Kage level ninja?


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## t0xeus (Jul 17, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> No more hilarious than Itachi fans believing he went on a MAGICAL QUEST TO ACQUIRE MAGICAL WEAPONS THAT WERE OBVIOUSLY MADE TO BE WIELDED BY JUST HIS SUSANO'O. But I do love my FanFiction. So I give you the same job as "Mr. Third" find a shred of evidence that hints Itachi had find to do pull any Indiana Jones exploration mission to uncover tools, that all other Susano'o users simply manifested


Damn so Orochimaru was looking this whole time for a sword that he could've never even take from Itachi, as all Itachi needs to do is just to turn off Susanoo and Totsuka is gone 
Really makes you think !


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 17, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> This panel alone destroys any notion that Itachi created the Totsuka sword himself. Is this dude trolling


You really aught to read before you post. Oro looked. But that very same Oro also couldn't recognize Totsuka from looks alone. Yeah you might want to choose an argument I haven't already addressed.

And I suggest you first opt to come at me correctly. And learn the term trolling first.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 17, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> You really aught to read before you post. Oro looked. But that very same Oro also couldn't recognize Totsuka from looks alone. Yeah you might want to choose an argument I haven't already addressed.
> 
> And I suggest you first opt to come at me correctly. And learn the term trolling first.



None of which counters the actual context of the panels.

Zetsu knows what the Totsuka blade is and what it does, he says no one has been able to find it but he didnt know itachi had it, Which means a few things of course.

1. More then a few people know about the totsuka blade.
2. Orochimaru wasn't the only one looking for it so totsuka blade isn't some super unheard of legend, people know about it and have been actively trying to get it.

So how does any of that make sense if itachi less then a decade ago created the totsuka blade himself? How is a blade made by itachi related to kusanagi blade? How does Zetsu know about the totsuka blade and how it works? Itachi for dame sure didn't tell him and since only a handful of ninja alive at the time could even force itachi to go all out i doubt many people saw him use it and live to tell the tale and by many i mean probably zero people have seen it and lived up to that point. 

Your trolling bro


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 17, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> None of which counters the actual context of the panels.


Did you read my entire argument, first.

First and foremost your panel only covers what I already pointed out.. Oro looked. He never found. Couldn't even recognize it until it started sealing him. That's the only thing that can be taken from the panel.



> [Zetsu knows what the Totsuka blade is and what it does, he says no one has been able to find it but he didnt know itachi had it, Which means a few things of course.
> 
> 1. More then a few people know about the totsuka blade.
> 2. Orochimaru wasn't the only one looking for it so totsuka blade isn't some super unheard of legend, people know about it and have been actively trying to get it.


1. More than a few people know about the totsuka blade. . And considering the only one's who ever acknowledges Totsuka are Itachi, who possesses it. BLACK ZETSU, and we know just how old BLACK ZETSU IS. And Oro, who could only recognize it after it was sealing him. So your few is JUST three. And considering Itachi owns it. That's two. And considering Oro didn't clearly do his homework on what Totsuka actually was. That leaves on BLACK ZETSU, who I already arbitrated is quite old.

2. Listen to yourself. Your second point isn't much different than your first. That's what you get for trying to elaborate on something based off two statement. Anyways I already arbitrated the only people to confirm to know about it. So reread point 1.



> So how does any of that make sense if itachi less then a decade ago created the totsuka blade himself? How is a blade made by itachi related to kusanagi blade? How does Zetsu know about the totsuka blade and how it works? *Itachi for dame sure didn't tell him and since only a handful of ninja alive at the time could even force itachi to go all out i doubt many people saw him use it and live to tell the tale and by many i mean probably zero people have seen it and lived up to that point.*


Itachi doesn't have to have to have created Totsuka. Has any other Susano'o user created their weapons? I think if you want to call someone a troll, you aught to be A1, when it times to really showcase your knowledge on the subject. Tobirama comments alludes to different Susano'o wielding Kagutsuchi existing long before Sasuke acquired one. And I already addressed the being related to a Kusangai blade issue as well. Sasuke's Part 2 sword was also known as a Kusanagi blade, and considering there isn't any mentioning of him having to find it.(It's probably mostly to hype the blade itself) Note: Adult Sasuke does not wield the same sword as he did as a teen. Which means having the hype of a Kusanagi blade doesn't amount to much, but just that. And you seem to repeating the same argument over, and over. Black Zetsu  knows about the entire shinobi history. You cannot use him to validate your position. The *BOLD *is irrelevant if I already argued that someone might have possessed a Susano'o wielding Totsuka before Itachi.



> Your trolling bro


You have the right to your opinion. But when are "cakes mixed" your argument was TRASH.

You kept repeating your same argument. Your argument relies on believing Itachi created Totsuka. When NO SUSANO'O USER HAS EVER BEEN CITED TO CREATE THEIR OWN WEAPONS. You omit Tobirama statement that implies that Susano'o wielding doing X/wielding Y alludes to the possibility that Itachi's Susano'o may have had another user prior to himself.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 18, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> YOUR ?
> 
> Fuck all that...If we you want to keep the post length "PRACTICAL" then let's do that. JUST ANSWER THIS...
> 
> WAS ITACHI THERE TO CAPTURE NARUTO OR TO ENSURE SASUKE'S SAFETY? I DON'T WANT TO HERE ANY OTHER ANSWER BUT A DIRECT RESPONSE THIS QUESTION.




CONCEDE THE POINT. ITachi was there because he was sent by Nagato. 


Itachi ACCEPTED THE MISSION to ensure Sasuke's safety. It's not one or the other, Christ man, so dense. ITS BOTH. What is your problem? I showed you Itachi telling Jiraiya his mission without Kisame disagreeing. Itachi said the same thing to Kakashi as well. Nagato recalls sending Itachi and Kisame to Konoha. ITS CANON. Itachi's true motivations for accepting the mission has nothing to do with refuting the fact that NAGATO SENT HIM. When you concede to this point, then I'll start addressing your other nonsensical points.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> CHANCE TO HAPPEN)
> 
> You also can't ignore that DANZO, in which this actual CANON, .(You also attack this idea)
> 
> The bottom line is you ignore that I already KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO. You're trying to JUSTIFY ITACHI'S ACTION, AND TURN AN ISSUE THAT IS LARGELY GREY, INTO MORE OF A BLACK AND WHITE ISSUE.(But I'm not going to let you do that. As the Uchiha Fan in me won't let you)



Ya lying. We were told the perspective of the Uchiha by THREE FRIGGING UCHIHA. Shisui, Itachi, and Obito. Period, end of sentence. I have posted you the scans already. Here is some more.

The only possibilty was for Sasuke to change the clan, but that was unlikely. The only point you have here is that Itachi didn't try telling Sasuke the truth, as perhaps he would have changed the rebellious ways of the uchiha. THATS IT. Everything else you said is rubbish. The Uchiha were itching for blood, even in your anime filler video. I rest my case.














It doesn't matter. The Konoha government showed that they were not willing to cede power. It doesn't matter if your anime filler BS is accurate or not. A COUP, BLOODLESS OR NOT, a REVOLT, BLOODLESS OR NOT, IS TREASON anyway you look at it.  And Fugaku already stated he was trying to subdue the goverment through physical force (but without intended bloodshed), which would prompt them to fight back regardless. Leading to civil war. Even Kisame is smart enough to understand such a concept, but you can't?





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Why did you bother quoting me like this....When you already showcased earlier that you aren't capable of addressing any and all my points. You do know it's give and take. You cannot just play offense. Note: You don't see me attempting to try to address multiple points, which may or may not have nothing to do with each other. You went out of your way to type the shit. So at the very least I could do is at least read it.
> 
> 
> And you've yet to debunk anything I had to say....A "Responses does not = Debunk," you have to actually address the issue presented before you can officially be quote on quote debunking something. As far as being "impractical," note: the difference between your responses and mine.....DO YOU ACTUALLY THINK I'M CONSIDERING "PRACTICALITY" WHEN I'M ADDRESSING YOU? The length of my post us merely a reflection of what I've been given. Long story short. The more points you raise. The more points I have to address. And since I have to go out of my way to validate my claims with manga. In addition actually making sure I address any an all your argument to avoid you having to re-post things I didn't answer. I think I'm the one being "inconvenienced" here.
> ...





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Why did you bother quoting me like this....When you already showcased earlier that you aren't capable of addressing any and all my points. You do know it's give and take. You cannot just play offense. Note: You don't see me attempting to try to address multiple points, which may or may not have nothing to do with each other. You went out of your way to type the shit. So at the very least I could do is at least read it.
> 
> 
> And you've yet to debunk anything I had to say....A "Responses does not = Debunk," you have to actually address the issue presented before you can officially be quote on quote debunking something. As far as being "impractical," note: the difference between your responses and mine.....DO YOU ACTUALLY THINK I'M CONSIDERING "PRACTICALITY" WHEN I'M ADDRESSING YOU? The length of my post us merely a reflection of what I've been given. Long story short. The more points you raise. The more points I have to address. And since I have to go out of my way to validate my claims with manga. In addition actually making sure I address any an all your argument to avoid you having to re-post things I didn't answer. I think I'm the one being "inconvenienced" here.
> ...



I remember how it started well, yet several posts later I see you claiming I didn't acknowledge Itachi's mistakes, when I did so in my* first p*ost:



ThirdRidoku said:


> That's direspecting Itachi though. Itachi low diff'd his brother while dying of a terminal ilness and still made it look like sasuke won. It's not about putting Sasuke down. Sasuke HIMSELF knew that Itachi was holding back, hence why Itachi died smiling and apologizing to Sasuke.
> 
> I skimmed through your posts a bit. But it seems like you are missing the picture. Itachi is a trained shinobi. he kills just like everyone else has. The point of his character, is that he didn't enjoy it, but being an uchiha his parents had high expectations for him and he had to follow through. When it became Uchiha vs Konoha, he made the difficult choice to kill his family, and took the full blame for it. In the chapter 220s, we already see Itachi is stressed about the conflict between the uchiha and Konoha during Sasuke's flashbacks during the battle with Naruto at the VOTE.  Itachi was a grown ass man at age 14 dude.  He couldn't bring himself to kill his brother because of one: plot, and two : because of emotional attachment.  Hiruzen asked him to join the Akatsuki and to keep tabs and make sure that they don't make any direct engagements against Konoha.
> 
> ...




Yet you stay putting words in my mouth, and even using ad hominem garbage like saying you posted more scans, when I am frigging addressing your scans. It's ridiculous.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> So what Itachi's brief breakdown indicates a person has to read him to know his intentions?
> 
> How about we apply a little common sense here, you've been active on this board long enough, and I'm quite sure you been in your fair share of debates. Do you necessarily need to be able to "Read People" to know response they are going to churn out? All you need to know is that they aren't on your side. To get a pretty good picture as to where they stand.
> 
> ...



Nothing more than bias. We don't see what happens before Itachi enters his room. A*nd Fugaku is surprised to see that his son has joined the other side.* With that revelation, it's obvious that Itachi has chosen the path in favour of his government and not his clan, and it's obvious what the implications are.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> A. There's nothing dishonest about using a different translation. I have VIZ, but I only know one site where can post links from.
> B. . Unlike the case with Totsuka this isn't mistranslation. This is just an alternate name for Sasuke's second MS ability. Either way my point stands. You are also adding to Tobirama's words. He only stats, "I've never seen such flame control" before.(Which is what I cited the alternative name for Kagutsuchi to be) In this case I don't think having a Viz translation or an alternate translation makes a difference. As if you examine the VIZ translation for chapter 464, which is the official debut of Kagutsuchi. It's not translated as such. It's translated as "Inferno Style! Flame Control," which means they are simply using the alternative name for Kagutsuchi. Thanks, but I don't think I'll stick with viz on this one. Kagutsuchi is not only shorter, it's the name of a Japanese deity god just like the names of most other MS technique.



That's not the point. Tobirama was surprised that flames could be shaped into an arrow, nothing more.  Other people have tried to reason with you regarding Totsuka, and you still prove to be stubborn and biased.... rofl. Black zetsu was searching for the blade yet the blade only originated with Itachi's Susano'o. Keep trolling. If there was more than one of these blades, then they wouldn't be so surprised that Itachi had found it without their knowledge.   Black Zetsu has been around for a 1000 years and has been searching for that blade for X amount of time. Yet the blade pops up with Itachi, and Zetsu and ORo are both surprised to see that Itachi had this one of a kind blade. Yet they didn't know what they were looking for despite knowing how the blade functions. Yet Itachi's Susano'o spawned it by chance, despite the fact the blade was said to exist long before Itachi WAS EVEN BORN. Absurd.


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## Trojan (Jul 18, 2019)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> With how deep itachis dick was down kishimotos dick why would anyone be surprised that people rate him highly


itachi's dick was deep down Kishi's dick? How does that work?


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## Trojan (Jul 18, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> A better question would be
> 
> "What makes you think Itachi isn't High-Kage" ?


he can be dealt with Kages who are not "high-kage-level" 
can be easily shut down by a single move (mist jutsu) 

we have seen the kages that people consider then low or mid Kages like the War Arc Gokage taking on MS user (Sasuke)
and EMS/Rinnegan user (Asspulldara)...etc (although with different degrees).

Which will make itachi struggle immensely, and thus often his fans will resort into fanfiction territory to squees an excuse to why
he wins... 

and despite having this tight debate on how he wins, he somehow much stronger...


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## Sapherosth (Jul 18, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Oh I woke up early, just so I could....(WATCH)
> 
> No more hilarious than Itachi fans believing he went on a MAGICAL QUEST TO ACQUIRE MAGICAL WEAPONS THAT WERE OBVIOUSLY MADE TO BE WIELDED BY JUST HIS SUSANO'O. But I do love my FanFiction. So I give you the same job as "Mr. Third" find a shred of evidence that hints Itachi had find to do pull any Indiana Jones exploration mission to uncover tools, that all other Susano'o users simply manifested.
> 
> ...





The fact that it was stated that Orochimaru looked for that spiritual item suggests that it was there long before Itachi was even born. There's also no reason to believe that there was an Uchiha in the past to have awakened the exact same abilities as Itachi to even bring out Susano AND Tosuka/Yata Mirror. 

After all, MS is already rare and Susano is even rarer. We've already seen 4 Susano users and ALL of them had different abilities. The odds of an Uchiha in the past possessing the exact same MS abilities and weapons as Itachi is minuscule at best. 


Just stick to the manga. It was outright stated and there's nothing contradicting it whatsoever. Tosuka and Yata Mirrors are external to Itachi's Susano. He just equipped them to his Susano to increase its power.

There's a reason why Black Zetsu hyped up the *Susano's weapon*s and not the *actual Susano itself. 
*
Your long essay proved nothing at all and is based purely on your personal opinion whereas mine and many others are based on a direct statement in the manga. Zetsu had no reason to lie in that instance so there's no evidence to doubt his thoughts either. 

You have nothing to stand on....


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## Sapherosth (Jul 18, 2019)

Hussain said:


> he can be dealt with Kages who are not "high-kage-level"
> can be easily shut down by a single move (mist jutsu)



He can be shut down easily by mist jutsu? 

Itachi has already canonically fought when he was visually impaired and even blind against Sasuke. What makes you think he will be "shut down" by the mist?

I'll be waiting to hear your excuse 




> we have seen the kages that people consider then low or mid Kages like the War Arc Gokage taking on MS user (Sasuke)
> and EMS/Rinnegan user (Asspulldara)...etc (although with different degrees).



Wait, what? 

You're telling me that ganging up on Noob MS Sasuke and 5v1 against Madara is somehow a feat which suggests that Itachi isn't high-kage? 

Each of them individually would get wrecked. *Notice how every single one of those Kage can't do shit to Madara's shit tier Susano forms. *They had to combine their techniques and try their hardest to even attempt at breaching Susano.

That alone suggests to the readers that *experienced MS user*s are above their level.




> Which will make itachi struggle immensely, and thus often his fans will resort into fanfiction territory to squees an excuse to why
> he wins...



The only thing I am struggling with right now is the laughter. Your arguments are just too funny.



> and despite having this tight debate on how he wins, he somehow much stronger...



The only person having this "tight debate" is you and your little brain. 

Everyone else easily understood it.


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## Trojan (Jul 18, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> He can be shut down easily by mist jutsu?
> 
> Itachi has already canonically fought when he was visually impaired and even blind against Sasuke. What makes you think he will be "shut down" by the mist?
> 
> I'll be waiting to hear your excuse


Yup, see how it was used against Asspulldara with superior eyes.. 

and against Kakashi as well (twice)



Sapherosth said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> You're telling me that ganging up on Noob MS Sasuke and 5v1 against Madara is somehow a feat which suggests that Itachi isn't high-kage?
> 
> ...



But that turned onto 1V5 (Asspulldara's legged Susanoos) no? 


- it does not. Because we have seen them fight against those moves (against superior opponents). Now, if we add in itachi's pitiful
chakra, that will make him at a disadvantage. That does not mean they will win necessarily, but it's not something that they can't handle... 



Sapherosth said:


> Everyone else easily understood it.


they did not understand a flat out statement when Kishi was spoon-feeding them. It's highly unlikely they understand something
else that was not, necessarily, spoon-feeding.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 18, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> CONCEDE THE POINT. ITachi was there because he was sent by Nagato.


Concede the point...Homie you already lost...




*[*QUOTE]*Itachi ACCEPTED THE MISSION to ensure Sasuke's safety.* It's not one or the other, Christ man, so dense. ITS BOTH. What is your problem? I showed you Itachi telling Jiraiya his mission without Kisame disagreeing. Itachi said the same thing to Kakashi as well. Nagato recalls sending Itachi and Kisame to Konoha. ITS CANON. Itachi's true motivations for accepting the mission has nothing to do with refuting the fact that NAGATO SENT HIM. When you concede to this point, then I'll start addressing your other nonsensical points.[/QUOTE]
So your answer is he was there for Sasuke? Thank you for conceding....



> Ya lying. We were told the perspective of the Uchiha by THREE FRIGGING UCHIHA. Shisui, Itachi, and Obito. Period, end of sentence. I have posted you the scans already. Here is some more.


Shisui perspective? Yeah I believe that was . You posting scans doesn't validate anything....Because we DON'T KNOW WHAT THE UCHIHA WERE ACTUALLY GOING TO DO. PERIOD, END OF SENTENCE. The coup never manifested to anything beyond a PLAN.



> *The only possibilty was for Sasuke to change the clan, but that was unlikely.* The only point you have here is that Itachi didn't try telling Sasuke the truth, as perhaps he would have changed the rebellious ways of the uchiha. THATS IT. Everything else you said is rubbish. The Uchiha were itching for blood, even in your anime filler video. I rest my case.


Yeah I believe you have no grounds to arbitrate Sasuke's ability to change the clan as unlikely. As I don't believe unlikely was ever used.

As far us the underline...Now you know how I feel about you. You've been wasting my time for two days now. The Uchiha were Itching for blood, LOL. Yet  is .



> It doesn't matter. The Konoha government showed that they were not willing to cede power. It doesn't matter if your anime filler BS is accurate or not. A COUP, BLOODLESS OR NOT, a REVOLT, BLOODLESS OR NOT, IS TREASON anyway you look at it.  And Fugaku already stated he was trying to subdue the goverment through physical force (but without intended bloodshed), *which would prompt them to fight back regardless. Leading to civil war. Even Kisame is smart enough to understand such a concept, but you can't?*


So you admit that you didn't know what a COUP, IS? Only addressing the *BOLD *because the only one's who ended up regretting how the Massacre played out is  -  -  - -. And the difference between Fugaku and Sasuke, is Sasuke actually wanted the Elders dead. If you actually watched the video all the way through, I think Fugaku arbitrated he wanted to restrain the higher ups. I also recall him reciting something a long the lines of BLOODLESS revolution.



> I remember how it started well, yet several posts later I see you claiming I didn't acknowledge Itachi's mistakes, when I did so in my* first p*ost:


Your first post...

""

You spent most of time wanking Itachi...Trying to make excuses for some of his more questionable action...Calling him invincible. Calling him perfect. And LARGELY DENYING SASUKE'S INFLUENCE ON HIS CHARACTER. You are really, really thinking before you hit that "Post Reply" Button. Also before you call Itachi perfect you might want address ALL OF THIS....




Hussain said:


> his "plans" & and actions are retarded?
> 
> > oh Sasuke-chan, please do kill Naruto (Konoha's only Jinchuuriki, and the 4th Hokage's son)
> > and don't forget to become a criminal and run away from the village
> ...


As I said before some of it can be justified and some of it cannot...

But LONG STORY SHORT, you ORIGINAL POST DIDN'T ADDRESS ALL OF THIS.

Itachi's character is a "MESS" if you examine the CHARACTER AS A WHOLE..BUT PLEASE OH PLEASE...."Please stick to the aspects of his character you want to acknowledge" that you used too...



> Yet you stay putting words in my mouth, and even using ad hominem garbage like saying you posted more scans, when I am frigging addressing your scans. It's ridiculous.


But I did post more scans....And if you were to examine are earlier post... It appears I was taking the subject allot more seriously than you did. But since you want to resort to "HALF ASS" posting...And only responding to parts of my argument that you want, then two can play that game. Mr.





> Nothing more than bias. We don't see what happens before Itachi enters his room. A*nd Fugaku is surprised to see that his son has joined the other side.* With that revelation, it's obvious that Itachi has chosen the path in favour of his government and not his clan, and it's obvious what the implications are.


I believe I made my argument for why the *BOLD* is BS...And what did you post here? Nothing. But an Opinion. No scans to support. No rhyme or reason. Just a flat out statement that he was. And you call me Bias? I believe I done more for Itachi in this discussion than you EVER HAVE. You can't even fully embraced the aspect of his character that makes him a character. And notice the inconsistency in your arguments when it's for Itachi you want to elaborate. When it's not Itachi you want to stick to the scans....Yeah you're not fooling anyone here, buddy.

And



THIS







> ]That's not the point. Tobirama was surprised that flames could be shaped into an arrow, nothing more.  Other people have tried to reason with you regarding Totsuka, and you still prove to be stubborn and biased.... rofl. Black zetsu was searching for the blade yet the blade only originated with Itachi's Susano'o. Keep trolling. If there was more than one of these blades, then they wouldn't be so surprised that Itachi had found it without their knowledge.   Black Zetsu has been around for a 1000 years and has been searching for that blade for X amount of time. Yet the blade pops up with Itachi, and Zetsu and ORo are both surprised to see that Itachi had this one of a kind blade. Yet they didn't know what they were looking for despite knowing how the blade functions. Yet Itachi's Susano'o spawned it by chance, despite the fact the blade was said to exist long before Itachi WAS EVEN BORN. Absurd.


HOT GARBAGE

There is nothing to expand upon regarding Tobirama's words....They merely implicate that he's seen Kagutsuchi that strong before.(Which opens the door of other people having a Similar Susano'o. You know since Susano'o existed before Itachi was even born. Lol) And Other people doesn't mean jack if they are pitching the same argument that I've already addressed. And your opinion of me doesn't matter, and it doesn't make any sense considering I have nothing to gain from whether Totsuka was something that came with Susano'o or not. You need to learn the definition of Bias. As you clearly accused me of that before: When I posted my original scan of Tobirama's Kagutsuchi statement, and you countered with the VIZ translation that merely uses the alternate name. Looks like you adjust using the term recklessly at this point. I you've proven to be inadequate in regards to many things: How Izanami works, What a coup is, What Omniscient is, etc. etc. I posted your original post which arguably far, far more Bias than anything I posted.(Quote my original response to you. I dare you)

And I think you need to reread . Now who's trolling? He cited Oro/Others looked for it. Why would Black Zetsu have the need of a sword, when his entire purpose was to serve as Kaguya's will. And wow, your lack of reading comprehension skills. I think you are exaggerating the response. The only person who was surprised he had it was Oro. And as I said before Oro clearly didn't know what he was looking for, so there goes the majority of your argument. Black Zetsu was merely playing the role of Narrator. And you need to learn to read peoples arguments carefully. I never questioned the blade existed before Itachi. I merely alluded to the fact that another Susano'o user may have had access to it prior to Itachi. Which is why I utilize Tobirama's statement to validate that point. Jesus Christ, you need to learn to READ BEFORE YOU POST.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 18, 2019)

Welp, I guess you took my post as a "proof" in your debate with him...

nevermind then...


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 18, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> The fact that it was stated that Orochimaru looked for that spiritual item suggests that it was there long before Itachi was even born. There's also no reason to believe that there was an Uchiha in the past to have awakened the exact same abilities as Itachi to even bring out Susano AND Tosuka/Yata Mirror.


Jesus Christ, you Itachi fans need to learn to READ BEFORE YOU POST. If I already addressed an issue. Either come back with a different argument. Or don't come at at all. Orochimaru LOOKED, AND THAT'S IT. HE DIDN'T FIND! HE COULDN'T RECOGNIZE IT BY SIGHT! He only knew it was Totsuka after it started sealing him.(The fact that he couldn't find it implicates that Totsuka is/was/may have always been a manifestation of Susano'o from the beginning)

And I already addressed the issue of it making an appearance before Itachi was born....Which is why I quoted Tobirama's response to Kagutsuchi, ""(He's opening the flood gates for previous MS users having access to MS techniques/Jutsu we've seen from current users....And we know Susano'o existed before Itachi's time) So yes, there is very much a reason to believe that there was an Uchiha in the past to have awakened the exact same abilities as Itachi to even bring out a Susano'o *WHICH COMES WITH TOTSUKA/YATA*.(You trying to disprove the bold, mate)(Also doesn't Itachi and Sasuke both possess two out of three of the same MS abilities)



> After all, MS is already rare and Susano is even rarer. We've already seen 4 Susano users and ALL of them had different abilities.


Yes because the ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE UCHIHA that predates even Madara consisted of exactly four MS users? And I don't think the Susano'o is a rarity argument, actually works anymore. Considering it's been showcased as something ALMOST ALL MS user have access to whether it be Manga, Anime, Video Game, etc. etc. The Sage of Six Path had access to it along with: Indra, Madara, Shisui, Itachi, Sasuke, Obito/Kakashi....The only one's that haven't showcased access to it are the MS users who haven't showcased anything aka Izuna, Fugaku? 



> The odds of an Uchiha in the past possessing the exact same MS abilities and weapons as Itachi is minuscule at best.


Once again: You do know we're considering the ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE UCHIHA that predate even Madara, right? And you don't have to exactly possess the same MS abilities, just the same Susano'o. Since the question being raised is; if Totsuka and Yata come with Susano'o, mate. 

Considering among the Uchiha listed Sasuke's V4 was granted a ...And, at least Yata, doesn't have to appear in the exact same form, as unlike Totsuka, it was never hinted to be something capable of being found, and how it works comes largely from the databook.(It hasn't been utilized much in the actual manga) That limits your argument to just Totsuka, mate. Combine that with Tobirama making a claim to at least have seen Kagutsuchi before, I don't think my argument is baseless. Unlike yours, which largely relies on Oro's/Zetsu statement, which once again, backs my argument as well.



> Just stick to the manga.


But we you brought up the issue of..."Use some common sense. Otherwise, tell me why Madara's Susano doesn't have any special abilities? Where are his shield & Special Swords?"

Your question isn't just limited to the manga....It's OPENS THE FLOOD GATES FOR EVERYTHING RELATING TO NARUTO ESSENTIALLY. As correct me if I ain't right the most of how Yata works comes from the Databook, which is not exactly the manga am I correct? And actually did your research you'd know Kishi provided the design of both Itachi's and Shisui's PS for Naruto Storms 4.

You cannot just limit things to manga because A: Not everything comes from the manga. B. I personally utilized both the Anime and Manga to catch and keep up with the Original series. And I only watch Anime adaptation of Boruto. I haven't gotten much into the Novels, but I do consider them as canon as well.(It's extra content, and provides a viewpoint from characters Kishi may not have had the time to develop in the original story) As the story of Naruto/Boruto has clearly become so much larger than Kishi's pen.(He's not even the writer of the later)




> It was outright stated and there's nothing contradicting it whatsoever.


Except the host of other Susano'o users? Which I've listed earlier.


> Tosuka and Yata Mirrors are external to Itachi's Susano.


Where? Now you are talking Bullshit. Because even the "Databook Entry of Itachi's Susano'o" features both Totsuka and Yata. The only one's trying to make it separate part of Susano'o, FOR NO DAMN REASON, are Itachi fans.



> He just equipped them to his Susano to increase its power.


Now when you provide the panel that even alludes to that, come holler at me.

How many examples of Susano'o do we have? About SIX....SEVEN? NO ONE'S HAD TO EQUIPPED THEIR SUSANO'O WITH ANYTHING. What evidence do we have of Itachi not being able to something that OTHER Susano'o users have done.(Do you not understand that this idea actually hurts Itachi, more than it helps....Because almost all Susano'o have some special about them in their optimal stage)



> There's a reason why Black Zetsu hyped up the *Susano's weapon*s and not the *actual Susano itself.*


Because Black Zetsu is the only one's that's hyped anything related to Susano'o?
.
And correct me if I ain't right, but I believe the only person to have official names for their Susano'o weapons are Itachi. It's also the only one to have a "Databook entry" prior to Madara's PS in DATABOOK 4. But I do believe the video games actual gives names to some of Sasuke's Susano'o enton weapons though.

But let's examine the biggest hype Zetsu gave Itachi's Susano'o weapons..."It's called the Yata Mirror and it's said to deflect all things....So combined with Totsuka blade  He's invincible...!"(I took that statement directly from VIZ)'

Now let's examine what Sasuke states about Susano'o. NOT FULLY COMPLETED AND WITH ZERO WEAPONS."But Gaara I've got an ABSOLUTE defense that's even greater than yours"(I also took that statement directly from VIZ)

How is the former hyped any greater than the later? Especially if were to take into account that it was just SUSANO'O that blocked Kirin?(Unless you want to argue otherwise) You do know that Susano'o itself has better tanking feats than any of the shields showcased by ANY SUSANO'O. You do know that Susano'o has been relied upon, more times than not, for it's defense than it's offense.(Although it's a very, very capable offensive option don't get me wrong)



> Your long essay proved nothing at all and is based purely on your personal opinion whereas mine and many others are based on a direct statement in the manga. Zetsu had no reason to lie in that instance so there's no evidence to doubt his thoughts either.


My long essay proved more than this "TRASH" of a response you put together. How much facts have you presented? And "Many Others" are chirping the same shit...Correct me if I ain't right, but you are all relying on the same page, right? Which I've addressed in my "long essay," you do know MY ARGUMENT IS MORE SUPPORTED THAN YOURS, THIRDS, DON'S, right? Because none of ya'll actually addressed the issue any different than the other. And the most damning evidence of Totsuka and Yata being features of Susano'o, are other Susano'o themselves.(Which were actually created LATER)

What does Zetsu statement prove? If we utilize the viz translation the only thing relevant to the discussion he mentions about it is "No wounder no one's been able to locate it," If I'm relying on Zetsu statement TOO, which you would have knew if you bothered to read my arguments, how does it disprove my thesis.

If my argument is that it came with Itachi's Susano'o, then ZETSU STATEMENT WOULD VALIDATE MY POSITION MORE THAN YOURS NOW WOULD IT. BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE IT WAS NEVER SEPARATED FROM SUSANO'O TO BE FOUND OUTSIDE OF SUSANO'O IN THE FIRST PLACE.



> You have nothing to stand on....


On the contrary I have everything.

You are the one's trying to create the MORE DIFFICULT TO VALIDATE ARGUMENT. You are arguing, and let me PUT THIS IS NEON LIGHTS FOR YOU TO GET THE PICTURE...

THAT ITACHI FOUND HIS WEAPONS AND ATTACHED THEM TO SUSANO'O!(Who thesis sound more crazier?)


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 18, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> QUOTE]*Itachi ACCEPTED THE MISSION to ensure Sasuke's safety.* It's not one or the other, Christ man, so dense. ITS BOTH. What is your problem? I showed you Itachi telling Jiraiya his mission without Kisame disagreeing. Itachi said the same thing to Kakashi as well. Nagato recalls sending Itachi and Kisame to Konoha. ITS CANON. Itachi's true motivations for accepting the mission has nothing to do with refuting the fact that NAGATO SENT HIM. When you concede to this point, then I'll start addressing your other nonsensical points.


So your answer is he was there for Sasuke? Thank you for conceding....[/QUOTE

Not at all what I said. Nagato sent Itachi to Konoha to capture naruto, and Itachi* accepted the mission for Sasuke*. Concession accepted.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Shisui perspective? Yeah I believe that was . You posting scans doesn't validate anything....Because we DON'T KNOW WHAT THE UCHIHA WERE ACTUALLY GOING TO DO. PERIOD, END OF SENTENCE. The coup never manifested to anything beyond a PLAN.



Lies. Itachi is showing his memory, and it's being used as a literary device to depict a flashback of real events. And in his memory we see Shisui describing the situation.  He said he can't stop a coup is an attempt to overthrow the government because Danzo stole his eye.  I don't give a dam what you say.  a COUP is* traditionally *a violent overthrow of a government. So I was not wrong in what I said. 




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yeah I believe you have no grounds to arbitrate Sasuke's ability to change the clan as unlikely. As I don't believe unlikely was ever used.
> 
> As far us the underline...Now you know how I feel about you. You've been wasting my time for two days now. The Uchiha were Itching for blood, LOL. Yet  is .





IpHr0z3nI said:


> So you admit that you didn't know what a COUP, IS? Only addressing the *BOLD *because the only one's who ended up regretting how the Massacre played out is  -  -  - -. And the difference between Fugaku and Sasuke, is Sasuke actually wanted the Elders dead. If you actually watched the video all the way through, I think Fugaku arbitrated he wanted to restrain the higher ups. I also recall him reciting something a long the lines of BLOODLESS revolution.



Your reading comprehension  is literally garbage. This is exactly why I'm doing this one post at a time now.  You  are literally repeating shit I already stated in previous posts. Fugaku's 'bloodless ' revolution still required* fighting,* as he said himself in the video, you liar.  He is attempting to restrain the government leaders through force, and* hopes* to do it without shedding blood, with Itachi's help. Two  different things. Doesn't change the fact that the rest of the Uchiha, as Fugaku stated, wanted blood.

Lol at baby Sasuke changing the clan when Shisui legit had to resort to using *Kotoamatsukami of all things*. Shisui cared about both the clan and the village and was a double agent for both the Konoha elders  and Uchiha, just like Itachi and he never showed any malice toward his clansmen, so don't try to pull any BS here. He asked Itachi to protect BOTH the village and his clan.   Fugaku clearly  could not be convinced by words. Even on his deathbed, He told Itachi that their philosophies disagreed. Hiruzen legit ran out of time making peace talks, and decided to having Itachi kill his clan, as Edo Hiruzen admitted himself. The scan for this was already posted. 

And lol, at you citing a panel of Uchiha bodies in the streets. What is that supposed to prove? Konoha had actionable intel that the Uchiha were planning a coup, and thus a preemptive strike was done to avoid a situation where the Uchiha succeeded in their coup.  What did you expect, Hiruzen to wait around for Fugaku and his boys to come up to his office making demands for himself and the elders to step down that involve restraining them  or killing them? which could largely escalate once other Reinforcements are called?  Restraining them is anime filler as far as I know, so don't act like that is confirmed canon without backing it up.  All Uchiha were stated to be complicit. The uchiha tried to strike Konoha and they got struck first. It's that simple. Even the anime filler Video shows that the Clan was itching for blood. Concession accepted.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> You spent most of time wanking Itachi...Trying to make excuses for some of his more questionable action...Calling him invincible. Calling him perfect. And LARGELY DENYING SASUKE'S INFLUENCE ON HIS CHARACTER. You are really, really thinking before you hit that "Post Reply" Button. Also before you call Itachi perfect you might want address ALL OF THIS....





IpHr0z3nI said:


> But I did post more scans....And if you were to examine are earlier post... It appears I was taking the subject allot more seriously than you did. But since you want to resort to "HALF ASS" posting...And only responding to parts of my argument that you want, then two can play that game. Mr.



Don't make shit up. Or rather, Go through my post history before making shit up. I use scans for my arguments as I see fit, and it isn't at all mandatory for me to post scans in support of my arguments. If you are on this site debating, you are supposed to know your shit in the first place. The scans are posted as a courtesy in case you have forgotten something and would like someone to to do the honors of posting it for you so you don't need to search it yourself.  You don't get to tell me how many scans I  have to post, nor is it grounds for ad homimen either. Furthermore, I ADDRESS YOUR SCANS, and many of the same goddamn scans have been posted multiple times already. IF you knew the manga as well as you claimed, you wouldn't be claiming BS you have been spewing. Why I did I have to post scans of Deva Pain existing in Part One,, or Itachi telling Jiraiya Akatsuk's orders if you knew the manga so well? And posting scans means jackshit, since you are incapable of understanding the very same scans you post rofl.

Kishimoto called Itachi invincible when wielding Totsuka and Yata, , so I can call him that too. And just goes to show you're a liar.* In my original post, I said Itachi made mistakes*. A*nd  I addressed Sasuke in that post as well*, keep lying.  INow that I have drawn the post to your attention, YOU STILL LIE ROFL. [HASHTAG]#Exposed[/HASHTAG] Itachi using mind control Koto on Sasuke was wrong, but it would have had the same end result as we saw in the canon. Sasuke now protects the hidden leaf. End of story. I said Itachi was a perfect* shinobi*, because that's what he is portrayed to be. A greater shinobi than Hashirama, the frigging founder of Konoha. The same guy who said he would kill his own child if they threatened the peace of the village. The same guy who was willing to kill himself if it would stop the fighting between Uchiha and Senju.  Itachi is a shinob thati tolled and endured and acted from the shadows to protect Konoha, as Danzo stated. Concession accepted.

And keep lying. I never said that I respond only to the parts of your argument that I want. ALL OF YOUR BS will be addressed. I am simply not typing out 4 posts in a row..




IpHr0z3nI said:


> I believe I made my argument for why the *BOLD* is BS...And what did you post here? Nothing. But an Opinion. No scans to support. No rhyme or reason. Just a flat out statement that he was. And you call me Bias? I believe I done more for Itachi in this discussion than you EVER HAVE. You can't even fully embraced the aspect of his character that makes him a character. And notice the inconsistency in your arguments when it's for Itachi you want to elaborate. When it's not Itachi you want to stick to the scans....Yeah you're not fooling anyone here, buddy.
> 
> And
> 
> ...


Liar. What point is there in me posting the same scan? IN THE SAME SCAN HE SAYS "So, you have joined the other side" Fugaku didn't know shit. If Itachi was so integral to the coup, and Fugaku already Knew that Itachi defected to Konoha, then his words make no sense. Furthermore, he outright says shortly thereafter, that he is not upset that Itachi's philosphy disagrees with his own. Fugaku would rather die by his son's hand then try to fight against both Konoha and his own son for the right to power.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> There is nothing to expand upon regarding Tobirama's words....They merely implicate that he's seen Kagutsuchi that strong before.(Which opens the door of other people having a Similar Susano'o. You know since Susano'o existed before Itachi was even born. Lol) And Other people doesn't mean jack if they are pitching the same argument that I've already addressed. And your opinion of me doesn't matter, and it doesn't make any sense considering I have nothing to gain from whether Totsuka was something that came with Susano'o or not. You need to learn the definition of Bias. As you clearly accused me of that before: When I posted my original scan of Tobirama's Kagutsuchi statement, and you countered with the VIZ translation that merely uses the alternate name. Looks like you adjust using the term recklessly at this point. I you've proven to be inadequate in regards to many things: How Izanami works, What a coup is, What Omniscient is, etc. etc. I posted your original post which arguably far, far more Bias than anything I posted.(Quote my original response to you. I dare you)
> 
> And I think you need to reread . Now who's trolling? He cited Oro/Others looked for it. Why would Black Zetsu have the need of a sword, when his entire purpose was to serve as Kaguya's will. And wow, your lack of reading comprehension skills. I think you are exaggerating the response. The only person who was surprised he had it was Oro. And as I said before Oro clearly didn't know what he was looking for, so there goes the majority of your argument. Black Zetsu was merely playing the role of Narrator. And you need to learn to read peoples arguments carefully. I never questioned the blade existed before Itachi. I merely alluded to the fact that another Susano'o user may have had access to it prior to Itachi. Which is why I utilize Tobirama's statement to validate that point. Jesus Christ, you need to learn to READ BEFORE YOU POST.



Liar. He never says anything about Kagusutchi in the competent translation. Kagustuchi is the ability to manipulate the flames of *Amaterasu*.  Tobirama was simply commenting on Sasuke's ability to control the form and shape of fire into an arrow. It doesn't open the door to shit. You lied about Izanami too.  We clearly saw that it turned Kabuto from a bad guy to a good guy once he accepted his fate. Kabuto was trying to be someone he wasn't and trying to be a Sage of six paths etc..., and Itachi forced him to change his mind using the izanami. The same thing would have happened to Sasuke, who despite talking to Edo Itachi and Edo Kages, still wanted to kill Naruto in the final battle. Itachi chose to not to use Izanami on Sasuke because he was done trying to use mind control on his younger brother. Izanami is literally the jutsu that can decide one's destiny.  


You're such a dam liar , oh my god. Black Zetsu was equally surprised that Itachi had the Totsuka Blade as Oro. They had been searching, as well as others, and they finally learned why no one could find it, and it was because Itachi beat them to it.  They clearly didn't know that Itachi had the blade. He was also surprised to see that Itachi had the Yata mirror. He only recognized the two weapons after they showcased their key attributes.  And having Totsuka and Yata would make his mother invincible upon  her arrival, on top of her other Juubi Jin hax. With Totsuka and Yata, Kaguya had ZERO chance of losing to Team Seven. Black Zetsu has shown himself to be a top tier intel gatherer, yet he doesn't want God Tier weapons? Keep trolling. He said NO ONE had been able to find the blade. If the blade existed with another Susano'o user in the past, then it would be impossible for Black Zetsu to expect to find a blade that only spawns with MS users.  Use your head. Black Zetsu manipulated the very first Uchiha to do his bidding. He knows all about the MS and it's respective techniques, and his seen EVERY single Uchiha in history.  He never once attributed Totsuka's origin to Itachi's susano'o, he said it had to be FOUND.

Your theory is unsubstantiated, and frankly, BS fanfiction.  The blade is something that can be found, hence why people were looking for it. Black Zetsu of all people is credible, as he has lived long enough to know these things. He described the blade as it was described in the legend.. You are straight up lying and ignoring the correct translation of that scene, which has been posted to you on more than one occassion.

You lack common sense. I can list several attributes about you: Sasuke fanboy, Itachi downplayer, you teach young kids or something, etc... And yet, I have no idea WHO you actually are (aside from your narutoforrum  username), or where you live, or what you look like. For all I know , I passed you while walking down the street earlier today to buy food for supper.  Just because I know things about you, doesn't mean I know what you look like or where to find you.  You are incapable of understanding that Orochimaru could recognize the Totsuka Blade by name one it stabbed him and began sealing him. He didn't recognize it by visual cues, which implies he had never seen it in person, which isn't unreasonable since we are talking about an ANCIENT BLADE. a blade so ancient, even Black Zetsu can only reference it by the legend that was passed down.  Not even Black Zetsu could recognize Totsuka and Yata just by visual appearance. That does NOT MEAN he did not know what he was looking for. If Itachi didn't beat him to the blade, Oro could have found it lying around in some cave or something, pick it up, stab someone with it, and then realize he had stumbled upon the legendary Totsuka when he sees it seal that person away. Problem solved.

And as a final example, We have NO IDEA what Augustus Caesar, the adopted son of Julius Caesar actually looked like, Even into old age, Augustus paid sculptors to make busts of him that depicted his *young and idealized face*.  Yet, we know almost everything else about him and his life and his accomplishments, just like Oro knew what the Totsuka Blade was and what it could do,  despite not being able to pick it out of a crowd using vision alone.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 19, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Not at all what I said. Nagato sent Itachi to Konoha to capture naruto, and Itachi* accepted the mission for Sasuke*. Concession accepted.


That's the only question I was asking....I did say.

"WAS ITACHI THERE TO CAPTURE NARUTO OR TO ENSURE SASUKE'S SAFETY? I DON'T WANT TO HERE ANY OTHER ANSWER BUT A DIRECT RESPONSE THIS QUESTION."

So I didn't bother to read or consider the rest because it was irrelevant to my QUESTION.





> Lies. Itachi is showing his memory, and it's being used as a literary device to depict a flashback of real events. And in his memory we see Shisui describing the situation.  He said he can't stop a coup is an attempt to overthrow the government because Danzo stole his eye.  I don't give a dam what you say. [LINKHL]450491[/LINKHL] a COUP is* traditionally *a violent overthrow of a government. So I was not wrong in what I said.


If Itachi is showing the memory then it is Itachi's , AS HE . And if you don't give a damn what there a different types of coup. Then why should I give a damn about their the revelation that their are different types of "Pacifism"? And you call me bias? At least I apply the same logic when it's utilized to favor or debunk my arguments.

And I believe the only evidence we got how the coup was going to go down is Fugaku from the Anime, which emphasizes A BLOODLESS TAKE OVER. Considering, the COUP, YOU KNOW, NEVER MANIFESTED. The ANIME >>>>>>>>> Your Opinion.






> Your reading comprehension  is literally garbage.


You question my reading comprehension, but display a response that not even remotely related to what you are quoting.

Yet I'm not the one who was who complained about being quote on quote, being "Impractical".....I wasn't the one who blatantly admitted to "Skimming" through post before churning out my response.(You've showcased time and time again an unwillingness to address various portion of my post. In fact it's become more of me debunking you. As you've yet to adequately address the issues I raised, at least not with the same effort you showcased to back up what you are trying to arbitrate)



> This is exactly why I'm doing this one post at a time now.


And this is why I'm giving you the exact same "energy/effort" you're giving me.



> You  are literally repeating shit I already stated in previous posts. Fugaku's 'bloodless ' revolution still required* fighting,* as he said himself in the video, you liar.


Did I say there wouldn't be any fighting. Correct me if I ain't right, but does "bloodless" and "fighting" mean the same thing? You do know Hebi Sasuke still fought while managing to keep things as "bloodless" as possible. "Bloodless" usually implies without casualties. Is that what that what the quote on quote "Pacifist" Itachi did when he came to Konoha?(And you wounder why you sound stupid, trying to essentially be me?)


> He is attempting to restrain the government leaders through force, and* hopes* to do it without shedding blood, with Itachi's help. Two  different things. Doesn't change the fact that the rest of the Uchiha, as Fugaku stated, wanted blood.


No.....BABY BOY. Don't change your tune now...KEEP THAT SAME ENERGY. 

Was this not you?

" "

You stated that Fugaku was the reason as  to why the Uchiha wanted to stage a Coup....Yet the video of Fugaku, showcased that he is supportive of the coup, he isn't willing to go about it as the rest of the clan wanted. And quite frankly the coup was just a idea the Uchihas as a whole planned over night. .



> Lol at baby Sasuke changing the clan when Shisui legit had to resort to using *Kotoamatsukami of all things*.


Well now you are questioning your very boy Itachi's opinion.



> Shisui cared about both the clan and the village and was a double agent for both the Konoha elders  and Uchiha, just like Itachi and he never showed any malice toward his clansmen, so don't try to pull any BS here. He asked Itachi to protect BOTH the village and his clan.


You should probably read before you post...Especially since you brought up the whole "Reading Comprehension" thing.

""

.

If you need me to put two and two together for you...That means "Protecting the UCHIHA NAME" ISN'T  THE SAME THING AS "PROTECTING THE UCHIHA"

So when you going to learn you are not going out IpHr0z3nI, IpHr0z3nI?

[QUOOTE]Fugaku clearly  could not be convinced by words. Even on his deathbed, He told Itachi that their philosophies disagreed. Hiruzen legit ran out of time making peace talks, and decided to having Itachi kill his clan, as Edo Hiruzen admitted himself. The scan for this was already posted.[/QUOTE]
You've seen the video sweetheart...You already acknowledge that the CLAN WANTED BLOOD. Fugaku as a leader of set clan, and mastermind behind the coup, JOB was to find the best way to implement the WISHES OF THE CLAN. And Itachi was never defined as right and neither was Konoha, so he had every right to disagree with Itachi's philosophy. Sasuke at first disagreed with Itachi's philosophy, and it wasn't until after trying to be the BIGGER PERSON, that he at least opted to understand his brother.



> And lol, at you citing a panel of Uchiha bodies in the streets. What is that supposed to prove?


That they weren't necessarily murdered in "their sleep" like you arbitrated. Do you need me to remind you anymore of your BULLSHIT? Because it's taking me longer than necessary to churn a response to what is essentially "TRASH" at this point. 



> Konoha had actionable intel that the Uchiha were planning a coup, and thus a preemptive strike was done to avoid a situation where the Uchiha succeeded in their coup.  What did you expect, Hiruzen to wait around for Fugaku and his boys to come up to his office making demands for himself and the elders to step down that involve restraining them  or killing them?


Like Fugaku waited around for his very own SON to slew him? ....

Correct me if I ain't right, but if , and Itachi suddenly decides to stop playing the role of a double agent to the Uchiha's and Konoha, and opts to play solely for Team Konoha. Then the Uchiha are are no longer on a leveled playing field in terms of Intel as Konoha is, right? Therefore their options are rather limited. And since Fugaku was the mastermind behind the coup, and even he wasn't particularly up front to the rest of his CLAN regarding all their "options" if we were to take into account the anime, things didn't help that he was Itachi's father, and clearly wasn't willing to go against his SON. As I said to you before Fugaku's/Uchiha's probably began and ended with Itachi.(And that's no speculation, that's FACTS)


> which could largely escalate once other Reinforcements are called?


No need to go this route as the COUP DIDN'T HAPPEN  



> Restraining them is anime filler as far as I know, so don't act like that is confirmed canon without backing it up.


What's better? Anime FILLER that at least tries to give us an idea of what plan of action the Uchiha intended to take with their Coup or NOTHING

The Anime is the only thing that gives an Idea of what the Uchiha had in mind with their COUP.



> All Uchiha were stated to be complicit. The uchiha tried to strike Konoha and they got struck first. It's that simple.


Now who is talking BS? We only knew the Uchiha were planning a coup. We only know the mastermind behind the coup was FUGAKU. The same FUGAKU, THAT WAS RELYING PRIMARILY ON ITACHI. THE SAME FUGAKU THAT ...... .



> Even the anime filler Video shows that the Clan was itching for blood. Concession accepted.


How is the Uchiha Clan any different from Konoha in that regards? And we don't need a  FOR THAT, NOW DO ?



> Don't make shit up.


I'm not. I actually took the liberty of posting your first response. Which showcases everything I cited you did. Do I honestly need to to post mine, or can you do that yourself?



> ]Or rather, Go through my post history before making shit up. I use scans for my arguments as I see fit, and it isn't at all mandatory for me to post scans in support of my arguments.


Well I took the liberty as actually showcasing your first response, which featured zero links and most wank? It didn't give a very big summary of the character, which is why opted to address it the first place. 

And I'm afraid without using scans some of your arguments are rather "questionable"
Which is probably why you opted to avoid bringing up ALLOT OF NONSENSE THAT YOU BROUGHT UP, in favor of a quote on quote more "practical" response. And some of the points you are addressing here like the whole Totsuka things is irrelevant to the overall discussion. Because I only opted to call on ITACHI FANS FOR NOT KNOWING OR ACKNOWLEDGING THE ENTIRETY OF ITACHI'S CHARACTER.(I never questioned if you guys knew his character from a POWER perspective)




> If you are on this site debating, you are supposed to know your shit in the first place.


Oh I've believe I've been doing this allot longer than you have....And IT SHOWS.



> The scans are posted as a courtesy in case you have forgotten something and would like someone to to do the honors of posting it for you so you don't need to search it yourself.


No that isn't it at all..Scans is to validate you know what the FUCK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TO BEGIN WITH.

Primary example is you not knowing how Izanami works.



> You don't get to tell me how many scans I  have to post, nor is it grounds for ad homimen either.


I don't recall ever telling you that in the first place. You are free to post the way you want to Sweetheart. But please at least know what the fuck you are talking about before hitting the "Post Reply" button.



> Furthermore, I ADDRESS YOUR SCANS, and many of the same goddamn scans have been posted multiple times already.


Do you think I'm just accusing of you of not addressing scans? You have overlooked entire paragraphs in favor of simply "Churning out a response as fast as you can"

Look how I'm addressing your arguments. LINE BY LINE. Paragraph by Paragraph. I'm not trying to churn out some cookie cutter response...As I already know Itachi quite well. I'm hoping you would prove to me just how knowledgeable of the character you are.


> IF you knew the manga as well as you claimed, you wouldn't be claiming BS you have been spewing.


As I said before you aren't going to out IpHr0z3nI, IpHr0z3nI..Give me an example of this quote on quote BS. I've believe I've actually went out of the way to validate the BS I accuse you of spewing. 


> Why I did I have to post scans of Deva Pain existing in Part One,, or Itachi telling Jiraiya Akatsuk's orders if you knew the manga so well?


A. Because I didn't actually Read part one...I watched the Anime.(And all the fillers...The only part of Naruto I read was Part 2)
B. I don't quite get your obsession with telling me Itachi was telling Jiraiya he was following Akatsuki orders if it's irrelevant to the overall discussion. Obito's .........If my agenda is get you to simply acknowledge the Sasuke aspect of his character. You know the part that wasn't perfect. The part where he clearly, clearly made some questionable decision. The aspect in which Itachi acknowledges he failed. I believe Itachi's actions with Akatsuki are irrelevant. Because he neither did much to impede them, as I don't recall a scene of him relaying info to Konoha in regards to them. But we do see him participating in gathering members and collecting/sealing Biju's. Oh but please oh please continue...




> And posting scans means jackshit, since you are incapable of understanding the very same scans you post rofl.


And another baseless opinion that you can't validate. You can't just make an accusation without a adequate argument to support it. That's not how this works.



> Kishimoto called Itachi invincible when wielding Totsuka and Yata, , so I can call him that too. And just goes to show you're a liar.* In my original post, I said Itachi made mistakes*. A*nd  I addressed Sasuke in that post as well*, keep lying.  INow that I have drawn the post to your attention, YOU STILL LIE ROFL. [HASHTAG]#Exposed[/HASHTAG] Itachi using mind control Koto on Sasuke was wrong, but it would have had the same end result as we saw in the canon. Sasuke now protects the hidden leaf. End of story. I said Itachi was a perfect* shinobi*, because that's what he is portrayed to be. A greater shinobi than Hashirama, the frigging founder of Konoha. The same guy who said he would kill his own child if they threatened the peace of the village. The same guy who was willing to kill himself if it would stop the fighting between Uchiha and Senju.  Itachi is a shinob thati tolled and endured and acted from the shadows to protect Konoha, as Danzo stated. Concession accepted.


Lol once again did you read your original post it started off with a LIE.
""_"_

How do you "low diff'd" and LOSE. And he didn't make it look like Sasuke won... Sasuke did win. Because Itachi wanted to die by his hands to begin with.

Your second mistake was this.

"_"
_
Which implies you did not take into account what I was saying. Because I believe I was addressing something in regards to what was stated on this ....

And I spent several post addressing others in regards to just that page. The only aspect of your post that addresses my original entries was.

"_"_

Which if you notice none of your post addresses my responses to just this. So the telling me that Itachi is Invincible is pointless.
Telling me he is the perfect shinobi does not mean much when I'm attacking his CHARACTER AS A WHOLE. But look at you go. Running about the mouth trying to give me things that irrelevant to the original argument I was presenting to others. 

And you question my Reading Comprehension skills? Yeah I'm going to continue to make that Azz look like a Joke.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 19, 2019)

> And keep lying. I never said that I respond only to the parts of your argument that I want. ALL OF YOUR BS will be addressed. I am simply not typing out 4 posts in a row..


But how am I lying when you've clearly dropped ALLOT OF THE STUFF WE WERE DISCUSSING.
And if you still yet to address all of my BS, why introduce even more points that's irrelevant to the overall discussion. Such as the issue with Totsuka and Yata? But I'm a liar, right? 

And don't you think you used that liar accusation a bit too much? You accuse me of lying when I posted a scan that refers to Tobirama using Kagutsuchi, the Japanese name, oppose to Flame Control, the alternative translation. You accuse my of lying about your original post. When what I cited summarized your original post quite nicely. 

"You spent most of time wanking Itachi...Trying to make excuses for some of his more questionable action...Calling him invincible. Calling him perfect. And LARGELY DENYING SASUKE'S INFLUENCE ON HIS CHARACTER. You are really, really thinking before you hit that "Post Reply" Button. Also before you call Itachi perfect you might want address ALL OF THIS...."

Oh and the only time you spent solely acknowledging the role Sasuke played in Itachi's character.

"_"
_
You can't even acknowledge the very thing that  ....Without bringing up some nonsense about Pain sent him to the village to capture Naruto, and Itachi accepted......As if you are attempting to downplay .

And do you know I dirty I could do Itachi character in regards EVERYTHING, if I really wanted? I like Itachi's character too. But I do care about him in regards to more than just power or portrayal. As there other Uchiha's with even greater power and arguably better portrayal in terms of accomplishments. Hell Sasuke himself isn't "MISSING ANY MEALS" in regards to either of those. Yet I do value his character for more than just aesthetics. Unlike you who seem to try to justify every questionable action Itachi did, I don't make excuses for Sasuke's questionable actions. But that's another story for another day. 




> Liar. What point is there in me posting the same scan? IN THE SAME SCAN HE SAYS "So, you have joined the other side" Fugaku didn't know shit.


A: I'm not a liar, as if read my post earlier

So stop fucking calling me....

*Spoiler*: __ 




"Oh I believe Fugaku had some idea..... Itachi .(You are not going to fair well if you are not knowledgeable or not willing to accept things that make Itachi look......)
Which is why we see in the final chapter before the infamous night......... .. ....  So it's foolish to say Fugaku had no idea that his son had more attachments to Konooha than his own family, as there is more than enough evidence to showcase otherwise. ...And I already showcased  enough times...That I don't think I have to explain it anymore."

You talk about me keeping up, but the only one who appears lost is you...Fugaku never   in  to anything. PLEASE BEFORE YOU HIT THE "POST REPLY" BUTTON READ....(None of scans showcases Fugaku doing nothing, but protecting Itachi)




LIAR, when it's quite clear I ain't lying about shit.

This is one of the post you didn't respond to, which is probably talking reckless.

So UNLESS YOU ARE WILLING TO DO THE ACTUAL TO INVALIDATE FUGAKU DIDN'T KNOW I SUGGEST YOU STOP SAYING HE DIDN'T.



> Furthermore, he outright says shortly thereafter, that he is not upset that Itachi's philosphy disagrees with his own.


And you wounder I arbitrate you need to . Because you are trying to downplay Fugaku words that implicates he has come to grip with Itachi's impeding decision a long time ago. What's the full exchange.

"Itachi promise one last thing....Take care of Sasuke"(Which implies that he knew at least partially the reason behind Itachi's actions)

Moving on

"Do not fear....This is the path you chose, is it not....?(Which I admit doesn't necessarily indicate he had knowledge of what Itachi was planing on it own, but combine with........)

THIS 

"Our Pain would end in in an instant, its nothing compared to what you'll face."(Which does imply he had an idea of the path Itachi would walk, but I'm not done)

"Even though our way of thinking is differs, I AM PROUD OF YOU"
(WHICH IMPLIES HE VERY MUCH KNEW HIS ITACHI)

WHAT'S THE FIRST THING OBITO REVEALED ABOUT ITACHI TO SASUKE!

""

The novel and the Anime gets a little more detail into the relationship between Itachi and his father...



> Fugaku would rather die by his son's hand then try to fight against both Konoha and his own son for the right to power.


I don't think Fugaku feared fighting Konoha, but I love how you try to bring the village into everything personal regarding Itachi. But I do think he feared fighting against Itachi, and Itachi alone.



> Liar. He never says anything about Kagusutchi in the competent translation. Kagustuchi is the ability to manipulate the flames of *Amaterasu*.


I've addressed this before. I HAVE THE COMPETENT TRANSLATION. THEY BOTH MEAN THE SAME THING.

One says, ""

The Viz which I won't link because I don't know how, but I'll quote it word for word: Says "I've never seen such Flame Control before"


I don't think the VIZ TRANSLATION EVER UTILIZE KAGUTSUCHI. Instead Enton Kagutsuchi is replaced with "Iferno Style: Flame Control"

As I said before it isn't necessarily a bad translation. IT'S SIMPLY PREFERNCE

QUESTION? DO YOU HEAR PEOPLE AROUND HERE REFER TO SASUKE'S SECOND DOJUTSU ABILITY AS "INFERNO STYLE: FLAME CONTROL" OR KAGUTSUCHI? If your answers the later, then WHAT ARE WE DEBATING?



> Tobirama was simply commenting on Sasuke's ability to control the form and shape of fire into an arrow.


Except neither translation refers to that at all....Either translation only refers to him IMPLYING THAT HE'S SEEN SASUKE'S SECOND MS ABILITY BEFORE. Which is how he can even begin to make the statement to begin with.

It never implies he's never seen it form into an arrow. As Kagutsuchi merely refers to the shaping and manipulation of Amaterasu flames. That's not even the subject. That's something you added on. In other words the one who is LYING IS YOU.



> It doesn't open the door to shit.


Thanks, but I prefer an explanation when I see an opinion.



> You lied about Izanami too.


Considering I took what said about Izanami directly from the manga....Chances are you, you simply don't KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.



> We clearly saw that it turned Kabuto from a bad guy to a good guy once he accepted his fate.


And that's because he was attempting to be something he not. In other words lying to himself.

As Itachi put it...



> Kabuto was trying to be someone he wasn't and trying to be a Sage of six paths etc...,


To be exact.........Which is you watched the fight was the biggest dialogue exchange. I don't think Sasuke ever had a problem with being himself. He had trouble deciding on which path to walk, but never questioned in regards to who he was.


> and Itachi forced him to change his mind using the izanami. The same thing would have happened to Sasuke, who despite talking to Edo Itachi and Edo Kages, still wanted to kill Naruto in the final battle.


Which is doesn't necessarily mean Sasuke was not being himself. We've seen Sasuke attempt to break bonds against multiple people. It's something he learned from big bro himself.


> Itachi chose to not to use Izanami on Sasuke because he was done trying to use mind control on his younger brother. Izanami is literally the jutsu that can decide one's destiny.


Izanami is the most Dues ex Machina among all sharingan jutsu...The only situation where it would possibly work outside of the Kabuto battle is against a Izanagi user.

Izanami is no mind control dumb dumb.......In Kabuto's case , and went from being used by one master to the next... Obito original self was good at heart. So when he finally broke out of Izanami he was his original self. And while we're on the subject. Note: Sasuke didn't need a jutsu to change Oro. He didn't need a jutsu to change Itachi. He just did so with his own MAGIC.



> You're such a dam liar , oh my god. Black Zetsu was equally surprised that Itachi had the Totsuka Blade as Oro.


You've used that liar phrase so much you probably meme that...



> They had been searching, as well as others, and they finally learned why no one could find it, and it was because Itachi beat them to it.


Who is they? Both translations refers to either ? What need would Black Zetsu have for Totsuka? He's not even a fighter. The only one who is lying is you.


> They clearly didn't know that Itachi had the blade.


Of course they didn't know Itachi had the blade....Nobody did considering it was the first time we the readers were introduced to Susano'o, period.



> He was also surprised to see that Itachi had the Yata mirror.


Stop LYING....



> He only recognized the two weapons after they showcased their key attributes.  And having Totsuka and Yata would make his mother invincible upon  her arrival, on top of her other Juubi Jin hax.


Are you suggesting Black Zetsu was looking for Totsuka and Yata?LMAO
Are you suggesting Black Zetsu was looking for Totsuka and Yata to give to Kaguya....Who was already had immune to ninjutsu via chakara absorbtion. And can already make short work of PS? Yeah, and Itachi fans say my argument is "FANFICTION"



> With Totsuka and Yata, Kaguya had ZERO chance of losing to Team Seven.


Yeah that's enough wanking for Totsuka and Yata for you.....I can't take you seriously anymore...I just can't 

Itachi with Totsuka and Yata isn't even close to the strongest Uchiha....



> Black Zetsu has shown himself to be a top tier intel gatherer, yet he doesn't want God Tier weapons?


They're not exactly God tier, mate...If they were then Itachi would be God tier.



> Keep trolling.


"But I'ma stop at every bar in between"

Look at the previous BS you spewed just now and tell me who's trolling.



> He said NO ONE had been able to find the blade.


"" (And you wounder why I use scans?) It's also white Zetsu that ask, "What's the story behind it?" 

 Black Zetsu was able to transcribe it and arbitrate to the readers exactly what it does.

Which backs my argument of the sword existing before Itachi gained access to it.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 19, 2019)

> If the blade existed with another Susano'o user in the past, then it would be impossible for Black Zetsu to expect to find a blade that only spawns with MS users.




This is emphasized 

You accuse me a lying so many times, yet who is the one clearly telling FABLES?



> Use your head. Black Zetsu manipulated the very first Uchiha to do his bidding.


Black Zetsu technically only manipulated Madara, as he is the only one to successfully achieve the Rinnegan, execute Infinite Tsukuyomi, and be used as a vessel for Kaguya.

Don't get me wrong Black Zetsu was also manipulating all the Uchiha in history to some degree as well, as the tablet was established as a guide for the Uchiha since Indra was born. But considering you can only read so much with certain Dojutsu, and only all of it when you acquire the Rinnegan. I think it's safe to say most of the Uchiha didn't follow it down to the letter. Besides it's not like the tablet was all bad. It technically kinda explained at least the the basics abilities of the sharingan; such as controlling Biju.



> He knows all about the MS and it's respective techniques, and his seen EVERY single Uchiha in history.  He never once attributed Totsuka's origin to Itachi's susano'o, he said it had to be FOUND.


So let me spell out so you can understand it. Having virtual Immortality allows one to have knowledge in regards to EVERYONE IN THE HISTORY OF A CLAN? Yeah, I don't think one translates to the other. I've been a member here for 12 years, that doesn't mean I'm aware of every poster that post of this forums. Hell if I ventured outside of the Naruto section, I'm sure I'd wouldn't able to recognize anyone. 

First and foremost I never attributed Totsuka origin to Itachi's Susano'o. I merely alluded to the possibility of someone having access to a similar Susano'o as Itachi prior to, which is not so crazy in comparison to your nonsense. Which is very much a possibility. Since once again, Tobirama has alluded to seeing Sasuke's second dojutsu ability before. Keep in mind Sasuke and Itachi share 2 out of the three of the same MS techs.(So this is not as much as much of a stretch than arguing Itachi found his weapons; which once again, hasn't showcased to ever be able to be wielded by something other than Susano'o.(Lol at Kaguya using Totsuka and Yata)

Also this is why I stick to posting Panels because Ninjas be lying....Where does Zetsu or even Itachi himself indicate that the later found it.

Your theory is unsubstantiated, and frankly, BS fanfiction.  The blade is something that can be found, hence why people were looking for it. Black Zetsu of all people is credible, as he has lived long enough to know these things. He described the blade as it was described in the legend.. You are straight up lying and ignoring the correct translation of that scene, which has been posted to you on more than one occassion.



> You lack common sense.


And you lack the ability present a proper argument. I could go down the list. You make accusation you can't support. You resort to fan fiction. You can't transcribe things presented by the manga correctly. And you love to utilize the phrase "You are lying" in it's proper context. As just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it a lie.



> I can list several attributes about you: Sasuke fanboy, Itachi downplayer, you teach young kids or something, etc... And yet, I have no idea WHO you actually are (aside from your narutoforrum  username), or where you live, or what you look like.


First and foremost you can check my sig to see who I rep, otherwise I've yet to wank, hype, or bring up Sasuke's name unless the issue was something relating to Itachi. And I've been here for over a decade mate. You think what I said to the Itachi fandom in regards to your best poster coming from the Sasuke fandom, was a lie? I've essentially SOLOED YOUR WHOLE TEAM. The only reason we are still debating is because  I don't believe that anyone's time should be wasted. The highest form of respect I know is to at least acknowledge that you read what someone has to say. And there's no better way to showcased that than actually giving them a response.

And not thinking Itachi was perfect is not a downplay. In fact it would make sense considering my favorite Uchiha is Sasuke. But you can find me in any Uchiha thread, and then some. I clearly showcased that I can adequately discuss Itachi's character as he was written. I just don't agree with some of his decision, and I don't have to, as I'm not a shinobi. But as you can see I am very sensitive in regards to an Itachi fan knowing the character as a WHOLE. And I've been doing you dirty in that regards from jump street. Just compare are first responses. And each and every response after that. And I already told you I'm a teacher of kids. 

Now shall I describe you? Oh I don't think I have to do that. As I been "Breaking you down from jump" I would call you an Itachi tard, but then that would be disrespecting Itachi. Just look at are very, very first exchange. I did you so bad that you are not even addressing the issues brought by your first post.

You spent at least half of this post discussing Totsuka and Yata, and you've still YET TO EXPLAIN TO ME WHY DOES IT MATTER IF HE FOUND IT OR IT MANIFESTED WITH SUSANO'O.





> For all I know , I passed you while walking down the street earlier today to buy food for supper.  Just because I know things about you, doesn't mean I know what you look like or where to find you.  You are incapable of understanding that Orochimaru could recognize the Totsuka Blade by name one it stabbed him and began sealing him.


And when you can arbitrate how this hurts my argument when is solid from every angle then you can arbitrate how this debunks my argument.

I've already acknowledge that At least Totsuka existed before Itachi....Yata was never arbitrated to be sought after by anyone. Most of the information about it comes from the databook itself. And as I said in my previous post Sasuke V3 has a bow that . In it's V4 form . In fact Sasuke's V4, which has only been featured twice, three times if you count it's brief appearance prior to Sasuke's acquiring EMS, was trying so much so much serve as response to Itachi. . Look how it is first presented. .(Totsuka seals what ever it pierces, right. Sasuke's is capable to burn what ever it pierces/touches) Sasuke's second showcasing with that Susano'o was . The only thing we didn't get to see from that variation of Susano'o is it's defensive capability. I brought this up because there was a EMS Madara vs. EMS Sasuke thread recently. And the arguments, even with PS restricted, was one sided. Because the reality it that Sasuke couldn't chase Itachi, while chasing Madara. as well. Itachi showed a Susano'o who approach to power is HAX. Madara's showcased a Susano'o who's approach to power is SHEER RAW POWER ITSELF.(His V4 is much larger than Itachi's or Sasuke's)




> He didn't recognize it by visual cues, which implies he had never seen it in person, which isn't unreasonable since we are talking about an ANCIENT BLADE.


An Ancient Blade now? Yeah, how much fanfiction are you going to provide to support your position. Why don't you stick to the words utilized to describe it spiritual/sacred?



> a blade so ancient, even Black Zetsu can only reference it by the legend that was passed down.


Yeah I think you are embellishing again, as it was never transcribe as something that need to be passed down. Black Zetsu just simply knew what it did. Which makes sense given we know just how old Black Zetsu is.



> Not even Black Zetsu could recognize Totsuka and Yata just by visual appearance.


No where in the manga is this validated. White Zetsu was the one that needed to be informed in regard to it. Black Zetsu simply answered his question. And you wounder why I said use panel? You talk so much shit about me lying, but you are the one that can stick to things that can actually be validated by panel.


 That does NOT MEAN he did not know what he was looking for. If Itachi didn't beat him to the blade, Oro could have found it lying around in some cave or something, pick it up, stab someone with it, and then realize he had stumbled upon the legendary Totsuka when he sees it seal that person away. Problem solved.



> And as a final example, We have NO IDEA what Augustus Caesar, the adopted son of Julius Caesar actually looked like, Even into old age, Augustus paid sculptors to make busts of him that depicted his *young and idealized face*.  Yet, we know almost everything else about him and his life and his accomplishments, just like Oro knew what the Totsuka Blade was and what it could do,  despite not being able to pick it out of a crowd using vision alone.


Which only implies that Totsuka existed before Itachi....Which is an idea I never was against. Which is I referred to Tobirama's statement as well, to support my theses that MS techniques can be recycled.

What's funny is that you made all this fanfiction up from Black Zetsu searching for the blade to give to Kaguya to make her quote on quote "Invincible" 

When you can have just as easily made up a story about Itachi's magical "Journey" to find weapons to equip to his Susano'o. Yeah finding weapons that our compose of not only chakara, but matches Itachi's Susano'o color scheme down to the letter. Yeah, it's as stupid as it sounds.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Jul 20, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> If Itachi is showing the memory then it is Itachi's , AS HE . And if you don't give a damn what there a different types of coup. Then why should I give a damn about their the revelation that their are different types of "Pacifism"? And you call me bias? At least I apply the same logic when it's utilized to favor or debunk my arguments.
> 
> And I believe the only evidence we got how the coup was going to go down is Fugaku from the Anime, which emphasizes A BLOODLESS TAKE OVER. Considering, the COUP, YOU KNOW, NEVER MANIFESTED. The ANIME >>>>>>>>> Your Opinion.



 Itachi's memories were shown in flashback form. The author was showing us what actually happened. It wasn't just hearsay from Itachi. Shisui, Danzo, and Hiruzen's words were all accurate and consistent with what we were previously told.

Anime isn't canon, don't make stuff up. The only thing that is > than my opinion are confirmed canon sources.  Bloodless take over =/= fightless takeover. Fugaku literally says* fighting will occur. *That is more than enough evidence that he was willing to fight, and you think Konoha isn't fighting back? absurd. In practice, it changes nothing from what we were told in the manga.
 Konoha had every right to keep their power just as Uchiha had every right to rebel. Just don't sugarcoat the Uchiha side and act like they weren't willing to fight for their desires. Hiruzen literally tried to open peace talks and it literally didn't work, which is why he had Itachi kill his clansmen as he said. In both the canon and filler, the rest of the Uchiha clan, aside from Fugaku and the Uchiha double agents, wanted to have bloodbath of a coup.  Otherwise, I don't care anymore, for reasons I will say below. Believe what you want. 
, 










IpHr0z3nI said:


> Lol once again did you read your original post it started off with a LIE.
> ""_"_
> 
> How do you "low diff'd" and LOSE. And he didn't make it look like Sasuke won... Sasuke did win. Because Itachi wanted to die by his hands to begin with.




The point is Itachi wouldn't have lose the fight if it was a serious battle. Sasuke didn't win. Itachi killed himself and made it look like Sasuke won. Obito clearly said that If Itachi wanted him dead, he would have been dead. You are a god tier Sasuke fanboy, holy shit. Arguing against Canon.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> That they weren't necessarily murdered in "their sleep" like you arbitrated. Do you need me to remind you anymore of your BULLSHIT? Because it's taking me longer than necessary to churn a response to what is essentially "TRASH" at this point.



Dude, every single thing you post at this point is a lie. This is a fine example. I'm too tired and sick to the stomach to go and address every single one of them in your posts at this point. I read through your post, and it was simply too maddening.  I never said that ALL of the uchiha died in their sleep. I said many of them logically died there. It was night time. Sasuke admitted to coming home late. The full moon was out and the sky was dark.  Use common sense.  I clearly stated that Obito/Itachi would have had to kill a large number of the police force head on, which is evident by some bodies lying in the street. 
. 




IpHr0z3nI said:


> No that isn't it at all..Scans is to validate you know what the FUCK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TO BEGIN WITH.
> 
> Primary example is you not knowing how Izanami works.




This is BS. I don't need to post a scan to say something factual or validate it. Naruto has blonde hair. Do i need to fucking post you a scan to prove that? ABSURD. Don't make rules up.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> A. Because I didn't actually Read part one...I watched the Anime.(And all the fillers...The only part of Naruto I read was Part 2)
> B. I don't quite get your obsession with telling me Itachi was telling Jiraiya he was following Akatsuki orders if it's irrelevant to the overall discussion. Obito's .........If my agenda is get you to simply acknowledge the Sasuke aspect of his character. You know the part that wasn't perfect. The part where he clearly, clearly made some questionable decision. The aspect in which Itachi acknowledges he failed. I believe Itachi's actions with Akatsuki are irrelevant. Because he neither did much to impede them, as I don't recall a scene of him relaying info to Konoha in regards to them. But we do see him participating in gathering members and collecting/sealing Biju's. Oh but please oh please continue...



The goal wasn't to send information dude. I'm so done. the goal was to prevent Obito/Pain from destroying the village.... as Obito said himself. I'm done. 



IpHr0z3nI said:


> They're not exactly God tier, mate...If they were then Itachi would be God tier.




That's what I'm talking about. Black Zetsu and Databook 3 says that Totsuka and Yata make itachi invincible and yet you deny it. That's how I know you hate the character. Feats of blitzing Oro/Nagato without a mental reaction. And Yata changing size and shape in response to attacks. Itachi is the SOLO KING. No amount of downplay is changing that, nor DBZ logic. Itachi can't bust continents so suddenly he isn't God Tier in 1v1 battle? Yikes. Totsuka is fast enough to tag anyone in this manga, and Yata turns back any attack. Do the math.  And ROFL, With Totsuka, Sasuke and Naruto wouldn't be able to react to Kaguya.  With Yata, Kaguya wouldn't have been even tagged or injured by anything Naruto and Sasuke could dish out.  More importantly,  She wouldn't have been sealed away. Yet you are too dense to understand that. You t even goes against Kishi's words.... Unreal. There is no other credible character who can speak on the power levels of Totsuka and Yata other than KAGUYA's Will themselves, who declared Itachi invincible. 












Y
a lying. Black Zetsu said "What is that " when Yata Mirror first appeared on panel after Kirin with Susano'o. Look up the scan yourself. Rewatch and reread the fight before talking smack. .  GO AND READ THE VIZ.  or stop wasting my time. If you think I'm LYING,  PROVE IT. You have access to the manga, so I don't have to post you shit, but I still did just as last show of your BS reasoning and ad hominem. Consistently posting false translations too, unreal. 

I'm  tired of your BS lying. You can't even comprehend basic shit, lik


e how Itachi went back to the village to see the elders in Part One, even though he was directly ordered to come back to the Akatsuki with the nine tails by Nagato. Jiraiya's intel confirmed it. Kisame and Itachi were in agreement that their goal was to capture naruto. So hard for you to understand why those ideas can co exist. UNREAL. THEY COEXIST because Itachi is working undercover in the Akatsuki. Holy shit. Obito's statements and Nagato's orders to Itachi don't contradict at all. Obito is simply saying Itachi's real motivation for going back to the village. He never intended to follow Nagato's orders, despite what they entailed. He still needed to PRETEND to capture naruto. Holy shit, you're dense. My post itself says he accepted the mission in order FOR  SASUKE. MEANING, TO REMIND ELDERS. Why do I have to spell out such basic shit? You must be trolling.

I'm so done and exhausted with this shit. Never have I debated someone so stubborn and dishonest in one go, and so incapable of even accurately remembering arguments even from just a single post ago. 

I'm not commenting on your other shit anymore unless something changes. I change my mind.  I have repeated the same things over and over, and you still BS and misconstrue and put words in my mouth and LIE, even as you reference my original post by quote. And you won't change your ways. Using false translations and the like.  It makes me sick to the stomach.  I* wasn't entirely polite either, so I'll call myself out on that, *but This has gone way too far.   So again, I don't even care about the Itachi lore thing or Uchiha massacre anymore, since you refuse to have a honest discussion. At this point, the YM and Totsuka Blade stuff is all I care about, and is more relevant to the issue of whether Itachi is 'high kage or not', and you're disrespecting Itachi equally in that regard as well. 






IpHr0z3nI said:


> *my agenda is get you to simply acknowledge the Sasuke aspect of his character. You know the part that wasn't perfect.* The part where he clearly, clearly made some questionable decision. The aspect in which Itachi acknowledges he failed. I believe Itachi's actions with Akatsuki are irrelevant. Because he neither did much to impede them, as I don't recall a scene of him relaying info to Konoha in regards to them. But we do see him participating in gathering members and collecting/sealing Biju's. Oh but please oh please continue...



This is the post in particular that sickens me the most. I FUCKING SAID Itachi made mistakes in my Orgininal post. which you highlighted twice yet missed the paragraph where I mentioned that. So yeah, I'm done with this topic.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 20, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Itachi's memories were shown in flashback form. The author was showing us what actually happened. It wasn't just hearsay from Itachi. Shisui, Danzo, and Hiruzen's words were all accurate and consistent with what we were previously told.


What part of the "COUP NEVER HAPPENED" don't you understand? Itachi. Shisui, Danzo, and Hiruzen's words are just that WORDS. And considering all the people you mentioned were PRO Konoha, THEY CAN'T SPEAK FOR THE UCHIHA CLAN, PERIOD. And while both Obito and Orochimaru did give us the reasoning behind the coup. The only information in regards to HOW THE COUP WOULD GO DOWN COMES FROM STRICTLY THE ANIME. What Itachi, Shisui, Danzo, and Hiruzen gives us the WORSE CASE 
SCENARIO regarding the coup. But even if we were to dismiss Fugaku's proposition on how he actually intends to carry out the coup, the proof is in the pudding that the Uchiha didn't have the man power to risk WAR WITH KONOHA OUTRIGHT. Once again, regardless of what was said, they were OFF BY TWO MEMBERS OF THEIR CLAN. And unless of the Uchiha were all shinobi, , they were not. They couldn't afford to risk outright war with Konoha, which is why Fugaku , the mastermind behind the coup, relied so heavily on Itachi's connections.



> Anime isn't canon, don't make stuff up.


And neither is your opinion, mate. But that aspect of the anime was re-adaptation of the Itachi novel. Yes it changes a few things, but considering the novel wasn't written directly by Kishi either. I think it's fair game. Especially if we're discussing something that the manga didn't go into too much details in regards.

And for your information I didn't read part 1. I watched part 1. And considering what is canon and what is not. Is largely a Naruto forums based concept and not general rule set by the author. I don't think I'm out of pocket to include it. Especially given it doesn't contradict anything established by the manga. Here's another fun fact I don't read the Boruto manga. I watch the anime though, and I don't know if you know this or not, but the anime takes a completely different approach to the series than the manga, but BOTH ARE CONSIDERED CANON. It's all subjective. Just because you can't counter it effectively don't play the IT'S NOT CANON CARD, NOW.



> The only thing that is > than my opinion are confirmed canon sources.


Considering you don't even follow actual NARUTO FORUM CONCEPT CANON, I wouldn't place to much stock in your opinion to begin with.

Do you think the Anime team just make stuff up? You think they Kishi doesn't have some role in what it features and what it doesn't? You do know that the actual Boruto: The Movie isn't actually laid out detail by detail by Kishi? He writes the script. And other people connect the dots.

So as I said before the Anime > Your opinion. Point blank period.



> Bloodless take over =/= fightless takeover. Fugaku literally says* fighting will occur.*


But even the quote on quote "Pacifist" Itachi fights. Hebi Sasuke, who went out of his way to avoid spilling the blood of innocents, fights. Hell, in real life, we actually have sports such as: Boxing, MMA, UFC, etc. etc. that FIGHTS.(Nothing is fundamentally wrong with fighting, so I don't know where you going)


> That is more than enough evidence that he was willing to fight, and you think Konoha isn't fighting back? absurd. In practice, it changes nothing from what we were told in the manga.


I don't think the issue with either side is the other fighting back. I think the issue became HOW TO SPILL THE LEAST AMOUNT OF BLOOD AS POSSIBLE. We've ultimately got the see the  of Konoha's  regarding the Uchiha coup. What we didn't get to see was the outcome regarding Fugaku's resolution regarding the coup. Which may or may not have resulted in less BLOODSHED THAN THE KONOHA Resolution.



> Konoha had every right to keep their power just as Uchiha had every right to rebel.


Actually it was the actions of one that led to the other. The Uchiha didn't opt to rebel just for nothing.



> Just don't sugarcoat the Uchiha side and act like they weren't willing to fight for their desires.


Who is sugar coating anything. But the proof is in the pudding. The Uchiha wouldn't have had to the fight for anything had they simply been treated as equal citizens from the start. Weren't the ? ? Yet it was  that cast the  regarding the  to later rebel.

You do know why the Uchiha fans and many other members root for Sarada so hard don't you? As she wan't to be Hokage. A position in which would have been impossible for any Uchiha prior to the Massacre.



> Hiruzen literally tried to open peace talks and it literally didn't work, which is why he had Itachi kill his clansmen as he said.


Oh I don't think anyone questions of Hiruzen tried his best...It's DANZO, that's the most questionable among the leaders. As Hiruzen stated, "," which is why if you are keeping up with Boruto the entire ROOT ORGANIZATION is no longer part of the Konoha governmental system.



> In both the canon and filler, the rest of the Uchiha clan, aside from Fugaku and the Uchiha double agents, wanted to have bloodbath of a coup.


LMAO, nice try. But in the manga we no next to nothing regarding the Uchiha's intent outside of wanting a COUP. It's only the anime through use of Fugaku, that we even have hint of your "Blood Bath" coup theory. And considering Fugaku was the mastermind behind the coup, what they wanted is irrelevant, . As I said before it isn't necessarily Itachi that has the most to answer in regards to the outcome of the Uchiha massacre. It's Fugaku, as the Uchiha clan looked up to him, not Itachi, to lead the coup. And while Fugaku was mostly relying on Itachi in regards to anything relating to the coup. When Itachi clearly made his allegiance clear , or his later . It was his job to come up with a resolution that didn't include Itachi or least warn the clan that Itachi was no longer working in the best interest of the clan. But even then I couldn't help think that Fugaku didn't value his duty as leader of the clan and mastermind of the coup, over his duty as a father. As even after the relationship between Fugaku and Itachi because "questionable". Fugaku still did his best to at least keep up the "Smoke and Mirrors" for Sasuke's sake. His only warning to Sasuke in regards to the impending things to come; is to don't follow after his brother. He let Itachi himself deal with anything and everything regarding Sasuke and the actual truth.



> Otherwise, I don't care anymore, for reasons I will say below. Believe what you want.


Lol, the issue would have been largely irrelevant in the first place. If you wasn't trying to justify Itachi/Konoha actions by attempting to cast blame at other Uchiha, who don't have an actual voice, and more more importantly Fugaku, who's only fault as far as the readers can tell, is not spending enough time with Sasuke before it was too late.
,


> The point is Itachi wouldn't have lose the fight if it was a serious battle. Sasuke didn't win. Itachi killed himself and made it look like Sasuke won. Obito clearly said that If Itachi wanted him dead, he would have been dead. You are a god tier Sasuke fanboy, holy shit. Arguing against Canon.


But what does that have to do with Itachi's STORY? Itachi's character? But over the past few weeks I'm starting to get a very, very vivid picture of the Itachi fanbase; in regards aspects they care about in regard to their character.

And unfortunately for you...., as .....(The details are irrelevant. Because we're not discussing who was stronger at the time. But of course given you and @UchihaX28  response in  thread. The idea of Itachi not being perfect in battle is everything. You guys can't even accept him making a mistake and needing to be help by Sasuke, without an excuse)



> Dude, every single thing you post at this point is a lie.


Yeah, you most certainly proved that?



> This is a fine example.


So you didn't arbitrate the Uchiha were probably killed in their sleep? You really, really going to make me go through pages and pages of exchange for me to fish this one little comment on your part out?(Oh please test me because I don't mind making taking the time to VALIDATE anything I claim. I think I've prove that already.)



> I'm too tired and sick to the stomach to go and address every single one of them in your posts at this point.


You do know, that most of my arguments were ignored by you. And I'm essentially just addressing your points at this point.
I never operate to far outside of a reference whether it be manga, anime, etc. etc Which is why every single of one of my post a littered with LINKS, to validate my argument. So please oh please don't make up excuses in regards to being able to do something in which I KNOW FOR SURE YOU CAN'T. You are trying to out IpHr0z3nI, IpHr0z3nI as I believe I showcased ALL THROUGH THIS THREAD THAT VALIDATE EVERYTHING I ARBITRATE. And you call me a liar all you wan't, but I believe a validated what I stated to you in the beginning.(But if the Sasuke fanbase wanted to, they'd demolish Itachi fans, in regards to Itachi. WE WERE, IS, AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN YOUR BEST POSTERS. Don't believe me? LET ME SHOW YOU!)

Itachi fanbase may be larger than Sasuke's, that's why you guys get away with so much shit.....But when we choose to show are fangs, it doesn't take many of us to SOLO YOUR WHOLE PAD


> I read through your post, and it was simply too maddening.


If you truly read through it and your only opinion in regards to it was that it was too maddening, then I know you're lying.
You been cheating me on responses for a while now. Only selectively responding to the things you want. Dropping points. Grouping together PARAGRAPHS OF "HARD WORK" that have nothing to do with each other out of an effort to simply say "You responded" There's Levels to this shit.....And I been doing this for a while. There's no short cuts to being a "Good Debater/Poster"
and it's literally impossible to have a good debate without two posters at least respecting each others "TIME." Furthermore I love a little trash talking here or there, but you got to be willing to PUT IN THE WORK IN ORDER TO THAT. You stop giving your best effort a long time ago. And started calling me a "liar" in regards to things that weren't necessarily my opinion. I don't operate too much on opinion, as it's far to easy to dismiss what others have to say, as the "That's your opinion" argument is way to easy. And when I post I do so with the intention to: Embarrass, showcase my skill, and make you LIVE AND DIE by the very words you cite. As learned a long time ago you can't always be the "Best Poster," as that's highly opinionated. But you can be the best "LISTENER", and no matter what you are anyone say about me. I never cheated you IN REGARD TO A RESPONSE.



> I never said that ALL of the uchiha died in their sleep.


I never said you said all the Uchiha died in their sleep. I merely reiterated what you said. "The Uchiha died in their sleep"
Whether you want to modify that now or not is your prerogative.



> I said many of them logically died there. It was night time. Sasuke admitted to coming home late.


And you call my post maddening? You do know the Uchiha massacre is the most darkest event the entire franchise, right? You want to know why Itachi fans, no matter the number get bodied when it comes to discussing it, because they try to justify Itachi actions solely because Kishi left things to the imagination. But for those who really, really want to discuss it. Kishi left enough clues to give just how DARK ITACHI'S ACTIONS GOES. First let me start off by posting canon.....In the words of Itachi, "" ........
We also know that the Uchiha clan was large enough to sustain a healthy population of PURE UCHIHA, as Sarada and Itachi's alleged girlfriend Izumi Uchiha, are the only two none PURE BLOODED UCHIHA.(And if you only considering the manga "CANON" then that eliminates Izumi) And Sasuke was seven. So that implies there were a healthy population of Uchiha kids unless you want to argue that the Uchiha stopped "Bumping and Grinding" for seven years? And some more fun facts, if you want to get technical, Izumi being a NONE PURE BLOODED UCHIHA YET DYING ANYWAY, implies the Uchiha clan may been larger than original percieved. Oh, but you probably don't want to go there because you know what's up.

So unless you are referring to the KIDS Itachi probably had to kill, there's no reason to believe the Adults weren't up. As Sasuke admitted to being late, but you still have to take into account his age, 7 by the way. It was night time, but that doesn't mean it was sleep time. Sasuke being up actually implies many of the clan may have been up. Which is why all bits and pieces of the Uchiha massacre we get from the manga, anime, novel, etc. etc. DEPICTS . Were Itachi's parents sleeping?  You claim to be an Itachi fan, but do really, really love the character or his POWER. Because you don't seem to want to address the "Ugliness" in fact a lot of your effort thus far was some "FANBOY" attempt to justify Itachi's action, when even he himself despite being under orders to do so; felt his crimes were unjustifiable.(So much so that he felt the need to die by a Uchiha hands)


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 20, 2019)

> The full moon was out and the sky was dark.


A full moon only refers to the phase of the moon. And the moon is clearly visible as long as the sky is dark. Which depending on the Season/time zone/etc. etc. isn't that late. Let's take into account Sasuke's age and what would be considered late for him. I live in Texas and even in the summer the moon is visible by at around 8:30... So using common sense nothing you arbitrated implies it was that late.



> Use common sense.


I am, are you. You think just because the moon is full and it's night time, that implies sleep time. When not only is Sasuke still visibly up. NO REITERATION OF THE UCHIHA MASSACRE DICTATES THAT THE UCHIHA CLAN WERE SLEEPING. If you don't watch the anime you might want to. Because Naruto Shippuden 27 "Black night town" is almost all about the night of the massacre.(It doesn't expand on it much as far as visual, but if you translate the lyrics the song transcribes what Itachi had to do quite vividly)




> I clearly stated that Obito/Itachi would have had to kill a large number of the police force head on, which is evident by some bodies lying in the street.


. And  the police still have to do their job even at night. Combine with the fact that it's stated as a FACT, AT LEAST IN THE ANIME, THAT SASUKE'S PARENTS WERE THE LAST TO BE KILLED. And in the manga this is heavily implied as well. Implicates that it ain't that late. Considering Sasuke's parents were dead shortly before he arrived home. In fact the first reiteration we have of the night  has Sasuke's . But I'm not done yet. We also know that not every Uchiha was a policeman. They had . Regular citizens, etc. etc. Once again they had a population large enough to sustain their own SEGREGATED section of the village.

You arbitrated use common sense, but like said before I like to make live and die by your own words. The only one not using common sense is you. The only one's who could have have been possibly been sleeping at that time were the kids, and I know you DON'T WAN'T TO GO THERE.
.


> This is BS. I don't need to post a scan to say something factual or validate it. Naruto has blonde hair. Do i need to fucking post you a scan to prove that? ABSURD. Don't make rules up.


It's not BS if not utilizing scans correctly is the reason why you are getting your ass handed to you on a silver platter.
It's not BS if know the scans better than you, and thus when you resort to trying to try to deviate to much to what the actual scans are saying I can "Check YOU"

You need scans because you aren't actually using facts Mr. Third. You've been telling "HALF TRUTHS" and either "Embellishing" something or flat out lying. I emphasized this with your lack of knowledge on how Izanami works.



> The goal wasn't to send information dude. I'm so done. the goal was to prevent Obito/Pain from destroying the village.... as Obito said himself. I'm done.


Now you see why I said you need to utilize scans.
. If you don't know what that entails? He was essentially tasked with doing the same thing  for Konoha that he did in regards to the Uchiha clan. Only with the Akatsuki. And your response doesn't make sense. As if his only job was to prevent Obito/Pain from harming Konoha, he could do that without actually joining. As the only thing that was preventing Obito, not Pain specifically, from touching the village was .(But if your done, I'm glad. Because this argument has been rather one-sided from the start. You know that I am a teacher, so you know part of job is to help "the student" better understand the particular subject I'm teaching. But in return I learn somethings about the student as well, but you've already showcased to me enough that I can get a sense on where you stand in regards to your knowledge of Itachi, and member of his fanbase. And I got enough knowledge to know that I CAN SCHOOL YOU IN REGARDS TO THE VERY CHARACTER YOU REP.(So at the end of the day who is the real Itachi fan?)






> That's what I'm talking about. Black Zetsu and Databook 3 says that Totsuka and Yata make itachi invincible and yet you deny it.


That's how I know you aren't reading my responses. Or at least comprehending them well. The response you addressed clearly refers to me talking about God tier.

"They're not exactly God tier, mate...If they were then Itachi would be God tier"

You do know this very thread was debating on if he is even High Tier? Which means not even the most devoted Itachi fan believes he's god tier.



> That's how I know you hate the character.


So hating the character means, acknowledging all aspects of the characters? Just who in the fuck you think you talking to? I've been schooling you in regards to the very character you claim I hate. Being a fan doesn't necessarily mean WANKING. It means taking the good with the bad. And if I hated the character then I couldn't be a Sasuke fan because as I said before Itachi and Sasuke are BOO'D UP. You can't necessarily talk about one without bringing up the other.



> Fe0ats of blitzing Oro/Nagato without a mental reaction. And Yata changing size and shape in response to attacks.


What does this have to do with being considered GOD TIER? Oro isn't god tier. And Nagato, who was only bested by Itachi because he had Naruto and Bee assisting him, isn't god tier either. How does WANKING AND TELLING "HALF TRUTHS" MAKE YOU A FAN?
(Fun fact Yata changing size and shape in response to attacks isn't special as Sasuke's  was doing that as )


> Itachi is the SOLO KING.


Except the battle with Nagato and Kabuto wasn't A SOLO AFFAIR. But keep telling yourself that.


> No amount of downplay is changing that, nor DBZ logic.


Who is downplaying and using DBZ logic? Now I know you are just talking to essentially yourself. And arbitrating simply your own insecurities.


> Itachi can't bust continents so suddenly he isn't God Tier in 1v1 battle?


And you know that's not how we define the GOD TIER.
Hashirama and VOE EMS Madara barely make MOST GOD TIER LIST. As many start GOD TIER at around Juubito. Who even Hashirama admited was stronger than him.


> Yikes. Totsuka is fast enough to tag anyone in this manga,


Totsuka has never been hyped for it's speed, period. It's a normal sword in most cases. And only becomes more than that when it pierces. And the two people it pierced was Oro, , and Nagato, .(As I said before how does WANKING AND TELLING "HALF TRUTHS" MAKE YOU A FAN?)


> and Yata turns back any attack. Do the math.


As with technically any other shield? We hardly got to see this aspect of Yata in action so we can only guesstimate on how it works. The only clear showcasing of Yata being supernatural is the way it .(And even then you still need the anime to fully see the deflecting properties) Otherwise as with any other shield. If you throw some hard at it, and it fails to pierce it's technically going to perform the same way Yata did against Oro's  and  explosion .(Do the math? I've been doing that for several post now. And once again if you want a better understanding of how Yata works it's only found in the databooks))


> And ROFL, With Totsuka, Sasuke and Naruto wouldn't be able to react to Kaguya.


(And you arbitrate that you are done? It's me, that's the only showcasing they actually took the time to read what the other have to say.) You aren't even being serious, as by the time Sasuke and Naruto were able to to hold their own against Kaguya.....One already had access to a S/T jutsu, which is actually canonically confirm to be instant. And the other was able to blitz even Kaguya herself. Considering we've yet to see Kaguya utilize Susano'o, how would she even wield the things? Because whether you believe they came with Itachi's Susano'o or not, they clearly cannot be used without manifesting Susano'o. Otherwise Itachii would not have to actively manifest Susano'o to utilize them. And earlier you questioned my ability to utilize COMMON SENSE?



> With Yata, Kaguya wouldn't have been even tagged or injured by anything Naruto and Sasuke could dish out.


Kaguya can already absorb ninjutsu naturally. And she is immortal. I don't think she feared being injured. She feared being touched by Naruto and Sasuke at the same time. And she was initially trying to take back the chakara given to Naruto and Sasuke, it wasn't until half ways through fight where she opted to kill them, and she struggled there as not only were killing Naruto and Sasuke a nuisance it self, but she had to with the rest of team seven + Obito as well.


> More importantly,  She wouldn't have been sealed away.


I think she was sealed because of a combination of THE ENTIRE TEAM 7. She had access to something that was even faster than Yata or even Susano'o itself in the form of Amenominaka a S/T jutsu; except Sasuke .  her to complete the .(Kakashi's Kamui also played a role before that)

You sound ridiculous and the only reason I'm even entertaining you is to showcase how much of joke this argument has become.
Kaguya fighting style wouldn't have benefited from a Susano'o. She could fly, and had access to six dimensions. And two ways to move throughout them. Not to mention she already had attacks that not only could do what Totsuka could not, penetrate/Break a PS easily. But attacks that suited her hit and run fighting style. The only she was lacking was a reliable AOE, prior to her final form. Which wasn't really a nuke so much as it was a way to wipe out one of her dimension outright.

Reactions: Like 1


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 20, 2019)

> Yet you are too dense to understand that.


Or you too filled with Itachi cum to understand that Kaguya would SHIT ON ITACHI WIELDING BOTH TOTSUKA AND YATA.



> You t even goes against Kishi's words.... Unreal.


Yeah because Kishi doesn't embellish?



> There is no other credible character who can speak on the power levels of Totsuka and Yata other than KAGUYA's Will themselves, who declared Itachi invincible.


Yeah because black Zetsu was much of a fighter himself? The same black Zetsu that was owned by Chojuro? Black Zetsu mainly played a role of Kaguya's strategist/mastermind.(As Kaguya herself wasn't not portrayed to be the brightest bulb in the room, on her own) Which is why many make fun of her in the first place.








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> Y
> a lying. Black Zetsu said "What is that " when Yata Mirror first appeared on panel after Kirin with Susano'o.


Fun fact....When using panel stick to what it's saying. If "Black Zetsu"" said "What is that" why would he be able to break it down down to a science? The dialogue is clearly coming from white Zetsu side, and utilizing a little commonsense it would be likely asking question to Black Zetsu.(Since white Zetsu is clearly less knowledgeable, in all things Uchiha, than quote on quote "Kaguya will") And I'm confused. You post panels of only Totsuka, yet you mention Yata's Mirror on panel after Kirin with Susano'o, when the hype regarding Yata wouldn't come until the next chapter.(And you call me lying?)



> Look up the scan yourself. Rewatch and reread the fight before talking smack. .  GO AND READ THE VIZ.  or stop wasting my time.


Who wasting who's time? When it quite clear I'm putting allot more effort into my post than you are?
I don't think VIZ changes the argument to much. And since I only know one website that allows me to post links....So I'm going to utilize that. But I am making sure that what I link and Viz aren't deviating too much in terms of translation.



> If you think I'm LYING,  PROVE IT.


I can't prove something that is clearly WANK...ITACHI GOD TIER? I DOUBT YOU EVEN BELIEVE THAT? Kaguya never had access to Totsuka or Yata, so I CAN'T PROVE SOMETHING WRONG THAT'S PURE FANFICTION. LMAO.



> You have access to the manga, so I don't have to post you shit, but I still did just as last show of your BS reasoning and ad hominem. Consistently posting false translations too, unreal.


What did I post false translation of? The only thing Viz gets right that the other translation I can POST DOESN'T IS ESTABLISHING THAT TOTSUKA IS A KUSANGI SWORD. Everything else has essentially the same thing. As even if you actually took the time to study how the translation from Japanese to English works, you know that it isn't exactly a straight forward translation. I listen to a lot of Japanese music with English subtitles and all them make note that the official translation is exactly 100% correct. And I already said that Viz doesn't actually utilize the Japanese name for Sasuke's second dojutsu ability at any point. Which makes it sorta confusing in some aspect. Viz translation came out a little slower than the raws translation back in the day, therefore Viz had to not only do something to encourage readers of the manga to actually legally read the manga, it also was able to correct any wrong translation, and in some rare cases wrong pictures outright.(Such as sometimes showcasing Sasuke with hi regular MS instead of EMS) But rest assured I'm making sure that what I post is back by both the scan I'm able to post and viz.



> I'm  tired of your BS lying. You can't even comprehend basic shit, lik


And what am I lying about? Exactly? And just who's response isn't adequately addressing the issue being raised in the other? As I told you before I am actually reading your post...Line by Line. Paragraph by paragraph. Because I'm simply astonished at this point. I want to see just how far your FAN FICTION GOES.




> e how Itachi went back to the village to see the elders in Part One, even though he was directly ordered to come back to the Akatsuki with the nine tails by Nagato.


Technically Itachi didn't go back to the village to see the elders. Only to  them that he's .(I would say the whole using panel thing again, but you said yourself you don't need scans to post something factual........BUT YOU CLEARLY DO)

And if Itachi was truly ordered to comeback with the nine tails by Nagato. Maybe he wouldn't have fled from Jiraiya......



> Jiraiya's intel confirmed it. Kisame and Itachi were in agreement that their goal was to capture naruto.


Except they never even attempted to fulfill that goal. The only thing Itachi manage do with his visit is instigate Sasuke's defection from the leaf.


> So hard for you to understand why those ideas can co exist. UNREAL. THEY COEXIST because Itachi is working undercover in the Akatsuki. Holy shit. Obito's statements and Nagato's orders to Itachi don't contradict at all. Obito is simply saying Itachi's real motivation for going back to the village. He never intended to follow Nagato's orders,


Except Itachi never accomplished Nagato's orders, and he didn't even put much effort in trying. Obito's statement implies Itachi was coming to pay the leaf a visit regardless whether he was ordered to or not. And it also explains why Itachi didn't put his best foot forward in capturing Naruto.(Unless Itachi, the GOD TIER, feared Jiraiya, the NONE GOD TIER, EVEN WITH THE AID OF KIsame, so much that he forgot his orders to capture Naruto?(You do know your attempts to separate Itachi from Sasuke, in this situation, only serves to make Itachi look bad in the end. Don't forget it was Itachi himself that made the statement about Jiraiya. If he truly intended to carry out Nagato's orders then those words in regards to Jiraya  must be a fact. As that's the only reason he'd opt to flee from Jiraiya and abandon the mission to capture Naruto outright)



> despite what they entailed. He still needed to PRETEND to capture naruto.


So is he Nagato's Bitch or not? Make up your mind?


> Holy shit, you're dense. My post itself says he accepted the mission in order FOR  SASUKE. MEANING, TO REMIND ELDERS. Why do I have to spell out such basic shit? You must be trolling.


And this is why I responded with....

"So your answer is he was there for Sasuke? Thank you for conceding...."


You must be illiterate? Or lack basic reading comprehension skills.



> I'm so done and exhausted with this shit. Never have I debated someone so stubborn and dishonest in one go, and so incapable of even accurately remembering arguments even from just a single post ago.


LMAO....LOOK AT YOUR RESPONSES AND LOOK AT MINE.

Someone seems to be addressing everything the other has to say. And someone seems to be "SAVE FACE RESPONDING"

The only thing you got right is, "NEVER HAVE YOU DEBATED"
Because you clearly, clearly don't seem remotely competent in this regards to posting. You can stay on topic. Can't answer address the CURRENT POST THAT'S IN FRONT OF YOU, YET ALONE REMEMBER POST FROM A SINGLE POST AGO.
(You do know I'm literally looking at my post and your response and comparing the two.) And here's a fun fact. maybe if you think a person is struggling to remember their points. You should probably quote them properly, as helps to remind them of their previous points. But who are you trying to fool? All of my responses for a while has been solely addressing your arguments. My goal was to showcase that the Sasuke fans were the Itachi fandoms best posters, and I believe I've proven that HOOK LINE AN SINKER.
And you know what? I haven't change my sig in years. But I'm so LULZ by some of your responses that I'm considering Sigging some of your ITACHI WANK. As if this was a contest to see who can WANK ITACHI THE HARDEST, you most certainly got me beat.



> I'm not commenting on your other shit anymore unless something changes.


You do know that you aren't doing me any favors. It takes me more effort for me to respond. As I'm not avoiding addressing EVERYTHING YOU HAVE TO SAY. I'M NOT THE ONE WASTING THE OTHERS TIME. And nothing going to necessarily change, as I'm not the one in control of the argument. We started off talking about Itachi. I was simply trying to see if you truly understood the character. But if you are not willing to discuss aspects of the character that don't involve POWER/PORTRAYAL, then how oh how can anything change. As I never questioned Itachi's power. I believe I made my intentions clear even before you jumped in. I wanted to see Itachi fans debate something different other than his power. But ultimately I'm glad you did stick to just his power portrayal because now I know just how ridiculous debating that aspect with you is....Itachi GOD TIER? Kaguya needing Totsuka and Yata? Yeah, that was certainly the most interesting aspect of this conversation.



> I change my mind.


As I said before yo aren't doing me any favors.



> I have repeated the same things over and over, and you still BS and misconstrue and put words in my mouth and LIE,


The reason why you are probably repeating the same things over and over is because you aren't remembering your points for one.
The reason why you are probably repeating the same things over and over is because you aren't properly debating.

But unfortunately for you I believe I have a better understanding of your points than you do. As I actually took the time to read them.

You actually aren't repeating yourself because you did bring up different things originally. We was actually having a decent discussion earlier. For example I presented things such as "Pacifism" and Itachi. Then you countered that there are different types of Pacifism? But when I brought that the fact that "Oppose to War aspect" doesn't change, and how Itachi was willing to risk Konoha going to war if Danzo harmed Sasuke, you dropped the point outright. And thus began a long cycle of you dropping points once your argument has been challenged or in most cases DEBUNKED outright. Instead of continuing discussing aspects of Itachi, in which I was interested in discussing. Such as his life choices. His role in the Uchiha massacre, etc. etc. You dropped them and brought up something totally irrelevant to the discussion. Totsuka and Yata and how they make Itachi Invisible. But I never challenged that statement. Instead I only argued with you and quite a few others in regards to their origins. In WHICH YOU STILL YET TO ANSWER ME DIRECTLY WHY DOES THE ASPECT OF HIM FINDING IT OR IT MERELY COMING WITH SUSANO'O MATTER?

You the clearly got lazy, and wasn't willing to fully engage in a proper debate. Instead you stuck to what's essentially name calling. and BASELESS ACCUSATION. You even accuse me of lying, in regards to anything that went against your argument. Don't know where you got that from, but that isn't a smart move to play in a debate. There's a thin line between baiting and outright name calling, and I don't think you know the difference anymore. At least when I do it; it's with substance. I never accuse you of something without validation. Even now I'm taking the time to explain to you, YOU, as you clearly don't know what you are doing anymore, and just merely trying to "SAVE FACE"

A debate is supposed to be a friendly competition. Regardless what's of the jabs or two thrown here and there. If if the debaters never reach a an agreement, they should still show respect to the other person for merely taking the time to "LISTEN" what you have say. And I don't think I've ever short changed you in that regards. Can't say the same for you though..



> even as you reference my original post by quote. And you won't change your ways. Using false translations and the like.  It makes me sick to the stomach.


I already explained my reasoning for using the translation I use. It's because that's the only site that's allowing me to post links to it. And links alone. I tried to post picture of scans here and there, but for some reason this sight won't allow me. I also addressed the translation thing a few arguments back. You claim you keep repeating yourself. But what do you think I'm doing. And you really, really aught to do your homework on how they actually translate Japanese to English. Different sites have different things because sometimes the translation from Japanese to English isn't so straight forward. And I'm actually taking the time to double check the links I post with Viz, and if they are comparable I don't see the reason not utilize the site I'm posting links from. You should clearly try to come up with a better excuse to explain why what you are arguing doesn't match the page whether it be from viz or any other translation. You claimed black Zetsu was looking for the weapons along with Oro? Which is not the case in either translation.

And you argue about being sick to your stomach? That's probably from all that Itachi CUM you've been swallowing.




> I* wasn't entirely polite either, so I'll call myself out on that, *but This has gone way too far.   So again, I don't even care about the Itachi lore thing or Uchiha massacre anymore, since you refuse to have a honest discussion.


But I'm the one that's actually going into detail in regards to that. I'm the one providing facts. You are the one providing baseless opinions, "Mr, they were sleeping"

You are not the most adequate poster when it comes to Itachi's character anyways. You know the basic thing that Itachi fans know, like how to wank. But when it comes to the questionable aspect of his character, you are either try downplaying it. Or trying to throw others under bus to make Itachi look good. When Itachi was never meant to look good in that regards. And if you really, really knew Itachi character like you say you do. You know when it came to Itachi and other members of his clan. Kishi didn't mind giving Itachi a few blemishes or two. Which is why in the paired fight with Sasuke, he was mostly the one being utilized to hype Kabuto attacks. In another thread many tried to excuse his blundered with Muki Tensei, but forget Kabuto got , which Sasuke . You forget that Obito, Madara, and Sasuke(If he didn't have that final talk with Itachi), essentially made everything he tried to accomplish with the Uchiha massacre Obsolete.




> ]At this point, the YM and Totsuka Blade stuff is all I care about, and is more relevant to the issue of whether Itachi is 'high kage or not', and you're disrespecting Itachi equally in that regard as well.


How so, when I never claimed he wasn't high tier? You are the one proclaiming him to be GOD TIER.
How so when the only thing I questioned in regards to YM and Totsuka, is their origin?
Now whose the one telling lies?
Just because someone is agreeing with your Totsuka blitz nonsense? And actually informing what we already know. In regards Yata most of the information we have comes from the databook.

Now who's the one putting words into peoples mouths? You can talk like Iphr0z3nI, but can you BACK IT UP LIKE IpHr0z3nI?




> This is the post in particular that sickens me the most. I FUCKING SAID Itachi made mistakes in my Orgininal post. which you highlighted twice yet missed the paragraph where I mentioned that. So yeah, I'm done with this topic.


And how much effort did you put into discussing that? You spent much, much more effort wanking Itachi's weapons. And even we I tried to get deeper into that you went into your "Itachi defense mode" blaming Sasuke for going to Oro? And leaving Konoha, when I pointed out that it was Itachi that drove him from Konoha. I was merely wishing to find to someone who likes discussing the issues about Itachi that I like. Because as I said before I see Itachi fans coming to his defense in regards to anything power related. But it's he Sasuke fans that have to do the grunt work when anything questionable regarding Itachi's actions pop up.

But if you don't take anything from this discussion note this. THE SASUKE FANBASE OWNS THE ITACHI FANBASE. Which is why in every thread where the fans of the two characters mix....Sasuke fans dominate. This thread is just another example of who and who, and what is what...But if you are are truly done. then I can confidently put.....

/Thread

At the end of my post, and don't make me out to be A LIAR IN THIS REGARDS.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Jul 20, 2019)

@IpHr0z3nI
Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai - Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi
No rank, close to mid range, offensive, defensive
Users: Sasuke Uchiha

*Immortal black flames turn into a blade of flames that mows down life!!*

A ninjutsu where form manipulation is added to the never disappearing immortal flames that are "Amaterasu". In his fight with the Raikage, *Sasuke was forced into a predicament and in that moment, he created this technique*. Like "Amaterasu", it's a ninjutsu only those who awakened the "Mangekyo Sharingan" can use, changing the flames into a sharp blade to greatly increase their killing power. Not only is the enemy burned by "Amaterasu", he also suffers burn damage instantly. By regulating the form manipulation, it's even possible to use the flames as a throwing weapon to attack from afar.

⬅ Because already existing flames of "Amaterasu" can be used, the requiered amount of chakra is lessened.

⬆ The blazing black flames are changed into the form of thorns! Becoming a sword of black flames that burns off what it touches, to protect Sasuke!!


Not at all. One of your multiple lies is your lie about Kagutsuchi , when Databook IV says sasuke* created the technique on the spot to protect himself from A4's attack.*  Yet it existed in Tobirama's time according to you rofl. And Tobirama didn't say anything about Kagusutchi in the VIz either. He said I never seen such flame control, referring to flames being shaped into an arrow. We have seen Madara shape his fireballs into dragons, like the ones he fired at the 5 Kage, that's an example of flame control you dolt- changing the shape of flames.  Flame control has never been exclusive to Amaterasu you liar.  So it doesn't open the door to shit as I said before. No evidence at all that Totsuka was awakened by a previous MS user.
And claiming it has the same color scheme as the rest of the susano'o as a justification is childish logic. Who cares if the color is the same? That could be a coincidence. The weapons can be wielded outside of Susano'o because other characters were looking for said weapons, and said characters didn't even have MS or Susano'o either. Troll harder. Even Orochhimaru's kusanagi blade can be channeled through his snakes.






IpHr0z3nI said:


> Fun fact....When using panel stick to what it's saying. If "Black Zetsu"" said "What is that" why would he be able to break it down down to a science? The dialogue is clearly coming from white Zetsu side, and utilizing a little commonsense it would be likely asking question to Black Zetsu.(Since white Zetsu is clearly less knowledgeable, in all things Uchiha, than quote on quote "Kaguya will") And I'm confused. You post panels of only Totsuka, yet you mention Yata's Mirror on panel after Kirin with Susano'o, when the hype regarding Yata wouldn't come until the next chapter.(And you call me lying?)



You lied. The thought bubble is coming from Black Zetsu. Liar confirmed. Black Zetsu didn't recognize Yata and totsuka until they performed each of their special attributes ( Sealing Oro, the other deflecting all attacks). Sasuke's shield was never given the same attributes as the Yata Mirror.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Or you too filled with Itachi cum to understand that Kaguya would SHIT ON ITACHI WIELDING BOTH TOTSUKA AND YATA.


And Itachi is god tier. Kaguya's Will stated so himself. There is no better source than the guy who has seen all of shinobi history, and the guy who is the COACH of Kaguya herself. You are on a track of being a  biased liar that can't acknowledge canon. What part of invincible while *wielding Yata and Totsuka* don't you get ?

You are a lying liar. Kaguya's attacks get deflected and she gets blitz'd by Totsuka. Not hard to grasp. She is also far less experienced than Itachi in actual battle.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> Kaguya can already absorb ninjutsu naturally. And she is immortal. I don't think she feared being injured. She feared being touched by Naruto and Sasuke at the same time. And she was initially trying to take back the chakara given to Naruto and Sasuke, it wasn't until half ways through fight where she opted to kill them, and she struggled there as not only were killing Naruto and Sasuke a nuisance, but she had to with the rest of team seven + Obito as well.



Stop making shit up. Kaguya got fucked up by RMS Naruto's 9 rasenshuriken. Her arm was cut off by his chakra arm. Shit that would have been blocked by Yata Mirror. She got blitzed by DMS Kakashi raikiri, which she didn't  absorb. Something that would have been blocked by Yata. Black Zetsu was worried when Kakashi cut her arm off. Naruto and Sasuke wouldn't be able to physically touch her to seal her in the first place because Yata would wall them to hell and back, while she uses her other ninjutsu/Totsuka to seal them away.





And you lied about Nagato and Orochimaru as well.


First of all, Orochimaru was blitz'd by the blade.  His mobility had nothing to do with it you liar. He couldn't see the attack because it was too fast for his eyes. Hence the "eh?" as it pierced through him. He was also cut off mid sentence abrutly.  We have seen Orochimaru reacting to attacks by lifting up his arms in response to it. It's basic biological instinct:


He reacted to a surprise attack from Sasuke, yet he can't mentally react to an attack right in front of him from Itachi?  He got blitzed. Learn what reflexes are. Eye to brain, then brain to muscle. If your eye to brain reflexes are too slow, you won't even see the attack coming in the first place. Look at Rock Lee vs Dosu for example.








With Nagato, its the same thing, a giant ass blade launched at him over 40 feet away, and his eyes were angled up toward the blade, yet Kabuto couldn't react with* Shinra Tensei or Preta Path to block it (which don't require mobility either)* and he was just as surprised at the blade's speed as Oro was. And don't even bring up the smokescreen either. Nagato has previously reacted to attacks coming out of smokescreens without any issue. I already debunked this shit in a previous thread(s) so feel free to look into it there, plus more info on Yata/ Totsuka with scans.




Dude, the reason I don't care about the massacre anymore is because you keep lying. *We are told that the Uchiha were powerful enough to shake Konoha, which is the whole reason everyone is complaining about the threat of the civil war. Danzo said it, Edo Hiruzen said it, Obito said it, Shisui said it. Canon> your opinion. Anime filler isn't canon, stop making stuff up. Even if we assume its canon, it changes nothing. Fugaku's coup still required fighting. The other uchiha wanted blood, so Konoha had the right to bring the curtains down on the clan. The clan was biochemically cursed to get stronger the more they hate, and their hate was increasingly growing toward the village.  The rebellion that was about to pop uo during the reign of Tobirama never came into fruition, as the village continued with the election of the Third and later Fourth Hokage. Fast forward, and They were only put under surveillance because of the sharingan controlling the kyuubi during the nine tails attack. It was obvious that an uchiha was behind the attack, so Konoha had every reason to suspect the Uchiha, since they were unable to find the suspect. Outside of the secret surveillance and being relocated, The Uchiha still had all the same rights as before.  





 Hiruzen opened peace talks which failed. NO WAY is Hiruzen giving up power. Even Hiruzen said he was willing to use words before violence, but even he isn't opposed to violence if words don't work, and the words failed. The coup didn't happen because the uchiha were struck first. * If  young 14 yr old Itachi and Obito were able to kill them without any signs of injury, then the fact the attack was a surprise ambush at night is the reason they succeeded overall. That's the whole reason why they attacked when they did. The Uchiha were not fully prepared for battle. You yourself said the Uchiha had shopkeepers and other citizens outside of the police. Last I checked, not all shops are open 24/7. It is not all unreasonable that some were sleeping. People can't have early bed times?  Bodies in the street means nothing. It just means that not EVERYONE was asleep, and I already asserted that the POLICE FORCE fought Itachi and Obito head on, as stated by Itachi and Sasuke themselves.

I didn't cheat shit. You cheated me, by consistently misrepresenting my arguments and even lying about other things consistently and repeatedly and refusing to concede points. Even admitting to not reading Part one and making me post scans for shit that you should already know, since you proclaimed you know the story better than I ROFL. Its not just a one time thing. Its REPEATEDLY through multiple posts, even when I draw your attention to it. It's a pattern.


Like understanding how Nagato sent Itachi to Konoha to capture naruto is so difficult to grasp for some reason. He isn't Nagato's bitch because he didn't follow the orders, hello?  You are incapable of understanding what working undercover is. We are told Itachi's real reason for accepting Nagato's orders and going to Konoha that day from Tobi.  He accepted the orders to check on Hiruzen, to check on the elders, to check on Sasuke. Not hard to grasp.  Itachi was sent as a spy. A spy watches over something. He watched over Akatsuki and insured that Obito didn't breach the agreement to not send full engagements to Konoha. Hiruzen never told him to send information back. We also see ZERO evidence of Itachi sending intel back. And there is more evidence he didn't. He was surprised by Jiraiya knowing about his mission, and was surprised that Kakashi knew as well. Kisame is literally with him almost 24/7, so how is he giving info? He  returned to Konoha in Part one on Nagato's orders, and used it as a way to remind the elders he was ALIVE. That means he wasn't even giving intel to the leaf for the 4 years he was in the Akatsuki for, if the elders needed to be reminded about that LMAO. The elders were the only people who knew about Itachi and his mission, so they are the only people who could have been receiving "intel". This is what I'm talking about it. You keep making shit up. Konoha ninjas had to get the intel themselves. That wasn't Itachi's role.

Plus you're a liar. We see Obito giving Pain the orders to go to Konoha while Itachi is set to die in his battle against Sasuke. And Pain is seen attacking the Village AFTER Itachi died. So yes, Pain by extension was kept from Konoha, because his boss, Obito, was not allowed to give him the green light. What part of  "Konoha is no longer off limits" don't you understand?

I don't respond to all your points, because most of them are inconsequential or things that have been already beaten to death, or things that I don't even disagree on rofl.


I didn't drop any points at all, I simply said I would get to them later. I changed my mind as of my previous post for the most part, because you keep lying, such as by lying and claiming I dropped the points.  But to address one of them now, You twisted Itachi threatening Danzo with releasing intel to other unallied villages to being a violent action, when said intel was never said to be able to cause a war. And it still falls within pacifism, because that was not even a violent threat.  And it was done because he had no practical way of defending Sasuke while he was moving about with Kisame and Akatsuki. The threat was meant to deter Danzo from harming Sasuke, because the agreement was that Sasuke would be spared in the uchiha massacre. Since Defense wasn't an option, Itachi had to use a verbal threat of retaliation. And Itachi's form of pacifism was already explained to you, he is willing to conduct violence in defense of someone else, even if he is opposed to his own actions. Obito otherwise stated that Itachi never tried to harm Konoha as an Akatsuki member, but only pretended:







IpHr0z3nI said:


> And if Itachi was truly ordered to comeback with the nine tails by Nagato. Maybe he wouldn't have fled from Jiraiya......



How hard is it to understand that he PRETENDED to follow Nagato's orders, and then failed ON PURPOSE. HE PRETENDED TO FOLLOW AKATSUKI ORDERS. That does not equate to the orders not existing.  We are literally going in circles. Kisame questioned why Itachi was retreating, and Itachi gave him the stamina excuse. The goal was clearly to capture Naruto, and Itachi made a good excuse for why said mission was being aborted.  Kisame knows nothing of Itachi's true motives, or his role as a spy for Konoha. He lied about Jiraiya's power level to make his excuse for retreating more convincing. Itachi said Kisame + more backup wouldn't allow them to beat Jiraiya, and we know Pain existed in Part One. What is your problem? Even in the beginning of Part 2, Kakashi believes that Jiraiya > Akatsuki in power.So there are several believe who believe that Jiraiya's hype as a Sannin is enough to deter the combined power of the Akatsuki. 


Doesn't mean its true. And even going by your BS logic, Itachi failing to capture naruto and fleeing from Jiraiya just means that Jiraiya was stronger than him and he was forced to retreat.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Do you think the Anime team just make stuff up? You think they Kishi doesn't have some role in what it features and what it doesn't? You do know that the actual Boruto: The Movie isn't actually laid out detail by detail by Kishi? He writes the script. And other people connect the dots.


Stop making stuff up. The anime adds in shit all the time. Look at Kn6 Naruto vs the infamous Toon Deva. Or Gaara vs Deidara in the manga vs Gaara vs Deidara in the anime. Or Asuma vs Hidan in the manga vs Asuma vs Hidan in the anime. Two different fights. The animators take their own liberties on shit all the time. PROVE that the anime filler is canon, or gtfo.



Sasuke was said to be more precious to Itachi than the village, and I never denied it.  So I don't want to hear it.
I addressed Itachi's character in full in my first post, whether you want to acknowledge it or not is your problem. Stated to be a greater shinobi than Hashirama, while also making *mistakes in how he handled Sasuke.* Both of things were said in my original post, and had nothing to do with power levels. Concession accepted.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> And unfortunately for you...., as .....(The details are irrelevant. Because we're not discussing who was stronger at the time. But of course given you and @UchihaX28 response in  thread. The idea of Itachi not being perfect in battle is everything. You guys can't even accept him making a mistake and needing to be help by Sasuke, without an excuse)



ROFL.  What flavor is Sasuke's semen, I'm curious? We are TOLD that Itachi held back. So the details ARE relevant. You legit just typed out that Sasuke won the fight against Itachi. That is dishonest, and one of your worst lies yet. He did not win. Itachi killed himself after sealing amaterasu in Sasuke's eye. Sasuke's back was against the wall and in fear yet you cite Sasuke's dishonestly claiming he killed Itachi as part of your argument?


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 21, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> @IpHr0z3nI
> Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai - Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi
> No rank, close to mid range, offensive, defensive
> Users: Sasuke Uchiha
> ...


Correct me if I ain't right, but the Databook only cites Sasuke created the technique on the spot to protect himself from A4's attack? You do know that the key word there is, "SASUKE CREATED," emphases on Sasuke? That doesn't dismiss Tobirama's words. Which implicates heavily that he'd seen it it done before. And how am I lying when I'm arbitrating mainly on what the manga showcases? You talk about having to repeat shit, but clearly you are the one forcing me to repeat shit....As I said before (WHICH YOU HAVE TO GRASP) YOU SPENT YOUR TIME DOING YOUR HOMEWORK ON CERTAIN ASPECT REGARDING KAGUTSUCHI, BUT YOU YET TO TAKE INTO FACT?


(I told I have trouble posting any other scans from other site, if it's too small to see look up the VIZ TRANSLATION yourself)



.
(Like I said before you need to read before you post)

So when Tobirama mentions FLAME CONTROL, he is MOST DEFINITELY REFERRING TO SASUKE'S SECOND DOJUTSU ABILITY.(You preach so hard about using VIz translation, but clearly don't understand it yourself. If the Viz translation is making it harder for you to understand Sasuke's second dojutsu ability than maybe Viz isn't the best translation for you to utilize)



> And claiming it has the same color scheme as the rest of the susano'o as a justification is childish logic.


How? Because if we look at the other users weapons regarding Susano'o it has same color scheme as well.
What you call childish I call, VALID.


> Who cares if the color is the same? That could be a coincidence.


Just like the rest of Susanos and their weapons.


> The weapons can be wielded outside of Susano'o because other characters were looking for said weapons, and said characters didn't even have MS or Susano'o either.


BUT NO ONE EVER FOUND IT, PERIOD.

SO PLEASE DON'T BRING THIS UP AGAIN. BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO CONVINCE TO MOVE FROM MY POSITION. YOU HAVE YET TO EVEN JUSTIFY WHY IT''S EVEN RELEVANT.



> Troll harder. Even Orochhimaru's kusanagi blade can be channeled through his snakes.


But Orochimaru Kusanagi has been wielded by both him and his snakes. Itachi's Totsuka and Yata has only been wielded by his Susano'o. TROLL HARDER? I think not.



> You lied. The thought bubble is coming from Black Zetsu. Liar confirmed. Black Zetsu didn't recognize Yata and totsuka until they performed each of their special attributes ( Sealing Oro, the other deflecting all attacks). Sasuke's shield was never given the same attributes as the Yata Mirror.


Are we talking about the ? Homie the only part of Zetsu facing the reader is white ZETSU. And further more the thought bubbles are coming from the right side of white ZETSU FACE, which implicate it's WHITE ZETSU IS SPEAKING.  So how oh how can the thought bubbles be coming from him? Further more why would it make since for him to ask, "So what's the story behind it"  and give use a detailed explanation in regards to Totsuka a moment later? Someone isn't utilizing common sense, and damn sure isn't using the manga.

Sasuke's shield was never discussed much at all? I only brought it up to arbitrate that Yata changing shape isn't unique to Yata, Mr. Third. Sasuke's shield in V3, . . It has no databook entry so we can't really speak in regards to what it can and can't do.




> And Itachi is god tier. Kaguya's Will stated so himself.


He never actually stated that? That was more or less, you?


> There is no better source than the guy who has seen all of shinobi history, and the guy who is the COACH of Kaguya herself. You are on a track of being a  biased liar that can't acknowledge canon. What part of invincible while *wielding Yata and Totsuka* don't you get ?


But Black Zetsu isn't the best person when it comes to judging strength? As he is the COACH OF KAGUYA, NOT KAGUYA HERSELF. Black Zetsu is very, very weak in comparison. And the same Black Zetsu was giving a similar wank to all of Itachi's
MS abilities? "I"(And this time, although white Zetsu is still facing the readers, the though bubbles are coming from the LEFT, OFF OF ZETSU FACE COMPLETELY. Which implies the Black Zetsu was speaking here.We also have a previous panel that showcases both faces of Zetsu prior to, which makes it crystal clear that BLACK ZETSU is the one speaking)
Meanwhile Tsukuyomi would later be debunked as the most powerful Genjutsu, and we don't need a statement to validate that Amaterasu isn't the strongest physical attack.


And if I'm am a biased liar that can't acknowledge canon, then why oh why do you prove me to be smarter of the two posters, posting here again?





> You are a lying liar. Kaguya's attacks get deflected and she gets blitz'd by Totsuka. Not hard to grasp. She is also far less experienced than Itachi in actual battle.


Is that before or after Itachi kills himself trying to tag her with Totsuka? Yeah, you are definitely proving to be the "Most Devoted" Itachi fanboy in the room, that's for sure.

Kaguya was making short work of Perfect Susano'o, long story short Yata would be WORTHLESS.





> Stop making shit up. Kaguya got fucked up by RMS Naruto's 9 rasenshuriken.


Who's  anything read the manga.""
..................

So no Naruto didn't fuck her up at all, he kinda essentially made her stronger, temporarily.(So am I making shit up, or you just simply didn't read correctly?)



> Her arm was cut off by his chakra arm. Shit that would have been blocked by Yata Mirror. She got blitzed by DMS Kakashi raikiri, which she didn't  absorb. Something that would have been blocked by Yata. Black Zetsu was worried when Kakashi cut her arm off. Naruto and Sasuke wouldn't be able to physically touch her to seal her in the first place because Yata would wall them to hell and back, while she uses her other ninjutsu/Totsuka to seal them away.


The same arm she regenerated moments later? Yeah I believe I said she's immortal. And not only is she immortal she can regenerate any loss limbs, like Madara after he absorb the chakara tree. DMS Kakashi raikiri is as much a physical attack as it is a ninjutsu.(It it didn't  by the way). Much like Naruto's original assault when he attacked her. And Kishi hasn't been inconsistent about what type chakara can be absorb and what cannot.. We've also never seen Susano'o ever absorbed either. And it's faced it fair share of user with chakara absorption.(Which I was arguing against with against another poster previously)

But of course what you are spewing here is nonsense, and you clearly didn't read my previous post. For Kaguya to have access to Yata or Totsuka, she'll have to have access to Susano'o, which would completely hinder her fighting style, which heavily relies on S/T jutsu. Adult Sasuke faces a similar conundrum with the presence of Ameno and Susano'o. While it's shown they can be  in it's . The presence of one greatly step on the toes of the traditional usage of the later. As Ameno relies on Sasuke to be fighting a certain way to maximize it's capabilities. While the traditional Susano'o forces Sasuke to take a completely different approach than he would if he wanted to maximize Ameno. One involves heavy movement, and one doesn't involve much movement at all. Which is probably why Kodachi/Kishi has Adult Sasuke have periods where he cannot access the sharingan abilities. In order to force him to utilize Ameno more.



> And you lied about Nagato and Orochimaru as well.


I did. Or did I merely transcribe what happened?



> First of all, Orochimaru was blitz'd by the blade.


And what did I state? Oro, , which your panel showcases down to the letter.




> His mobility had nothing to do with it you liar.


_Sigh _I believe the mobility part was specifically geared towards Nagato, but once again: "That's that reading comprehension"

'Nagato, ."



> He couldn't see the attack because it was too fast for his eyes. Hence the "eh?" as it pierced through him. He was also cut off mid sentence abrutly.  We have seen Orochimaru reacting to attacks by lifting up his arms in response to it. It's basic biological instinct:


Or he wasn't even trying to dodge and was virtually in the middle of a speech.
We seen Orochimaru reacting to attacks by lifting up his arms in response to it, but that was a completely different situation. And since when has Oro ever been know for his reaction speed?



> He reacted to a surprise attack from Sasuke, yet he can't mentally react to an attack right in front of him from Itachi?


A. Sasuke's attack was noted to be particularly fast.
B. Oro wasn't in the middle of a speech, and Sasuke's attack had to pierce through the wall first, which probably prompted Oro to be on guard. Not that it matters, as chidori sharp spear, was never hyped for it's speed either.



> He got blitzed. Learn what reflexes are.


Learn what speed feats are...


> Eye to brain, then brain to muscle. If your eye to brain reflexes are too slow, you won't even see the attack coming in the first place. Look at Rock Lee vs Dosu for example.


What does this have to do with Totsuka? No one is questioning whether Oro or Nagato got "Blitz", but none of them were particular known for their speed, as one wasn't even paying attention, and the other was IMMOBILE.



> With Nagato, its the same thing, a giant ass blade launched at him over 40 feet away, and his eyes were angled up toward the blade, yet Kabuto couldn't react with* Shinra Tensei or Preta Path to block it (which don't require mobility either)* and he was just as surprised at the blade's speed as Oro was. And don't even bring up the smokescreen either. Nagato has previously reacted to attacks coming out of smokescreens without any issue. I already debunked this shit in a previous thread(s) so feel free to look into it there, plus more info on Yata/ Totsuka with scans.



Yeah, once again Nagato was Immobile. And I don't know how calculated Nagato being 40 feet away. I don't honestly think the blade is that long. Though Kishi isn't exactly consistent when it comes to size. . Which is very much a smokescreen, and I don't care if you debunked the issue before because I'm not going to extend any extra effort to read your additional argument from another thread, when you aren't even reading all of mine HERE.(Although I did skim through it, and I like watching a good debate. Perhaps I take a look at it later.) I don't recall Nagato ever being able to react to attacks coming out of a smokescreen without having access to Rinnegan ability to see extra fields of visions.
(But you're welcome to prove me wrong)

And once again I don't have an issue with Yata/Totsuka in regards to what they do(I disagree with your PRAISE OF THEM, but to each is their own)....The only issue I raised was in regards to where they originated.



> Dude, the reason I don't care about the massacre anymore is because you keep lying.


What did I lie about?


> *We are told that the Uchiha were powerful enough to shake Konoha, which is the whole reason everyone is complaining about the threat of the civil war. Danzo said it, Edo Hiruzen said it, Obito said it, Shisui said it. Canon> your opinion. *


That wasn't the issue I raised, but alas I'm tired of repeating myself.
*



			Anime filler isn't canon, stop making stuff up.
		
Click to expand...

*It's not filler, it was once again a re-adaptation of the Itachi novel. And it's the only source we have to HOW THE UCHIHA PLAN TO EXECUTE THE COUP.

Does any of your character represent FUGAKU? Who was the mastermind behind the coup. Thus the only credible source to know how he the UCHIHA PLAN TO EXECUTE THE COUP.
*
[QUOTE*]*Even if we assume its canon, it changes nothing. Fugaku's coup still required fighting.[/QUOTE]*
Are you even reading my post? I'm repeating the same things.

There's nothing wrong with a bit of fighting. The manga is about ninja's after all, who are trained to fight.
*



			The other uchiha wanted blood, so Konoha had the right to bring the curtains down on the clan.
		
Click to expand...

*The other Uchiha couldn't and wouldn't have done squat without Fugaku's Orders.

And I believe Konoha's actions was painted as BLACK AS COULD BE. Not only was the truth hidden from the rest of the population, but even Itachi himself, who was operating under orders, deemed it to be a crime punishable only by Death by a Uchiha  like him aka Sasuke's hands. And of course Danzo got what coming to him as well by that very same Sasuke. Note: Sasuke was on the verge of crushes the leaf with no resistance with Oro, team hawk and the FOUR HOKAGE'S BACKING HIM. But Sasuke chose to the path of trying to understand Itachi actions over his own personal feelings of revenge.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 21, 2019)

*



			The clan was biochemically cursed to get stronger the more they hate, and their hate was increasingly growing toward the village.
		
Click to expand...

*Are you following Tobirama's nonsense again? None of showcased Uchiha unlocked their sharingan through hate.
I don't want to go into too much detail because you probably won't read it.
But to keep the story short: Sasuke's sharingan progression
(It's a short video, so you shouldn't mind watching it all the way  through)

*



			The rebellion that was about to pop uo during the reign of Tobirama never came into fruition, as the village continued with the election of the Third and later Fourth Hokage. Fast forward, and They were only put under surveillance because of the sharingan controlling the kyuubi during the nine tails attack.
		
Click to expand...

*The quote on quote "Madara sympathizers" only first emerged  after . However they weren't at the point of rebellion. As alluded to by Obito, . . The .


*



			It was obvious that an uchiha was behind the attack, so Konoha had every reason to suspect the Uchiha, since they were unable to find the suspect. Outside of the secret surveillance and being relocated, The Uchiha still had all the same rights as before.
		
Click to expand...

*Interesting philosophy, I hope that's not how you think in real life.
And once again you are trying to play down the condition in which the Uchiha were in? The same rights as before, A? Well that would explain why they would rebel? Because if the Uchiha were just the co-founders of the village along with the Senju....They should  be entitled to the same rights as the Senju? Which is everything the Uchiha did not have. As, I said before. The reason why Uchiha fans, Sakura fans, and then some root for Sarada so hard, is that she would be the first Uchiha Hokage. A position that would be deemed impossible prior to the Uchiha massacre.

And just for emphases. Just to show you how disconnected the Uchiha were from the village pre-Massacre. The fact that Fugaku needed Itachi help because he was quote on quote, ""(If that isn't enough to showcase to you just how disconnected from the village the Uchiha was, I don't what is)
*



			Hiruzen opened peace talks which failed. NO WAY is Hiruzen giving up power.
		
Click to expand...

*And depending on what the peace talk was actually about, he may not have had too. The Uchiha would have probably settled for equal treatment and a shot at the Hokage seat, or something close to that.

*



			Even Hiruzen said he was willing to use words before violence, but even he isn't opposed to violence if words don't work, and the words failed. The coup didn't happen because the uchiha were struck first.
		
Click to expand...

*I don't think the issue is necessarily who struck first. The Uchiha was in a LOSE, LOSE scenario without Itachi playing his role as a double agent. He clearly stopped feeding them information in regards to what Konoha planning. And unlike the Konoha leadership that only saw Itachi as a tool, I think it's safe to say Fugaku saw his son as much, much more than that. The Uchiha were doomed when Itachi chose to side against the clan, as 




> If  young 14 yr old Itachi and Obito were able to kill them without any signs of injury, then the fact the attack was a surprise ambush at night is the reason they succeeded overall.


? Yeah the circumstances didn't help none, but I think you underestimate the power of one individual vs. Nameless fodder. 

We seen Pain essentially solo Konoha.

And frankly speaking not every Uchiha was a shinobi.



> That's the whole reason why they attacked when they did. The Uchiha were not fully prepared for battle.


And there was no indication that they'd ever be, not with Fugaku running things.



> You yourself said the Uchiha had shopkeepers and other citizens outside of the police. Last I checked, not all shops are open 24/7.


Once again it wasn't that late. And only brought shop keepers to showcase to you the size of the clan.



> It is not all unreasonable that some were sleeping. People can't have early bed times?


Already addressed this in full. None of the reiteration of the massacre implies that the Uchiha were sleeping.
As I said before Sasuke's parents were depicted in the manga and stated in the anime to be last two Uchiha's to die. And they died before Sasuke even made it home.

Don't forget Itachi still had to pick a reasonable time to avoid having Sasuke witness what was happening first hand. So he shouldn't have been too late.



> Bodies in the street means nothing.


We will never have a full picture of what was shown to have taken place during the massacre, as once again this the darkest event in the manga. The bodies in street were all we need to know to get a full picture of what was taken place. Even the anime re-adaptation of novel showcases that some Uchihas may not have been outside, but they were certainly not sleeping.




> It just means that not EVERYONE was asleep, and I already asserted that the POLICE FORCE fought Itachi and Obito head on, as stated by Itachi and Sasuke themselves.


Where was it stated that the POLICE FORCE fought Itachi and Obito head on?




> I didn't cheat shit.


Oh...So does this response cover everything I arbitrated previously? I'm quite curious how did you manage to address a post that required THREE replies with just one.



> You cheated me, by consistently misrepresenting my arguments and even lying about other things consistently and repeatedly and refusing to concede points.


Stop talking shit, without proper evidence. How would you know what I said about your arguments. When you are clearly not even taken the time to fully read  what I have to say about it? I didn't misinterpret you in regards to anything. As you been saying the same shit over and over, and haven't showcased one shred of evidence to back up where I misinterpreted you? And what did I lie to you about? Your Itachi is God tier BS? Your wank for Totsuka and Yata? You belief that Kaguya would have fair better had she had access to Totsuka and Yata? What? You are not going to win a battle of whit, with me. I showcased I'm smarter. I've read your post in other threads...This ain't you? I've proven in my last post that I understand your argument better than you. Which is why what you are arguing deviates from one post to the next. And I proven I have no problem conceding points. Just give me an argument to concede to. I don't share your same level of  "Wank" in regards to Itachi's Power. And from the little I read in regards to your person "Dedicated Thread" in regards to your hype of of Totsuka and Yata, I don't think you did a good job on convincing others to have the same opinion about them that you do?(But as I said before I'll take a look into it later, as I do love reading a good debate, more than I love participating) And I've bodied you on almost everything outside of that. From Itachi's character, outside of power, to the "ugliness" of the Uchiha massacre.

I wounder of you think conceding is lack of reply. Because that's the only way your conceding argument would make since. As if you aren't listening to what I have to say fully, as evidence with how you opened this argument in regards to KAGUTSUCHI. I've already explained that the viz translation doesn't utilize the Japanese name for Sasuke's second dojutsu ability. Yet you open up with that argument as if I didn't already address it before. The only knew you added is the inclusion of the databook, which is excellent. As that means you can get off my case about me using the anime. As they it isn't the manga either.



> Even admitting to not reading Part one and making me post scans for shit that you should already know, since you proclaimed you know the story better than I ROFL.


And how is this relevant to the overall argument? You posted a scan proving that pain was a part 1 idea.
Yet I've produce scans of showcasing you EVERYTHING UNDER THE SON.

How Izunami works
Zetsu never claiming to be looking for the weapons
The Kagutsuchi vs. Flame Control conundrum
Kaguya ability to absorb chakara

And most of that is just this post. I'm sure I've invalidated many of your arguments with a scan. And I obviously do know the story better than you do. As evidence by both our responses? I'm not cookie cutting my way to a "Post Reply" I'm not just selectively choosing what aspects I want argue and what I don't. I watched part 1 because I didn't get into Naruto until the first VOE Naruto fight, and it was my interest in Sasuke's character that got me hooked to actually watch it from the beginning. You do know that most old manga, were introduced to the Americans through the anime. No one talks about DB manga. They talk about the anime. Yu Yu Hakusho. Inuyasha. So on and so on. The anime was introduced to the American readers before the actual manga was.



> And you wounder why I haven't  Its not just a one time thing. Its REPEATEDLY through multiple posts, even when I draw your attention to it. It's a pattern.


One time what? As I said before the proof is in the pudding. You look at my responses to you and look at your responses to me. Clearly someone working harder than the other in regards to actually RESPONDING.



> Like understanding how Nagato sent Itachi to Konoha to capture naruto is so difficult to grasp for some reason.


As I said before the proof is in the pudding. I already addressed the entire Nagato thing so I'm going to speed run through this.

Did he capture Naruto or not?



> He isn't Nagato's bitch because he didn't follow the orders, hello?



Then why is the issue of Nagato sending him even relevant?



> You are incapable of understanding what working undercover is. We are told Itachi's real reason for accepting Nagato's orders and going to Konoha that day from Tobi.



And as I said before: "WAS ITACHI THERE TO CAPTURE NARUTO OR TO ENSURE SASUKE'S SAFETY?

What's hard about giving a straight forward answer to this question? It either is or it ain't that....Say that!




> He accepted the orders to check on Hiruzen, to check on the elders, to check on Sasuke.



Except none of this is validated by Obito statement. Hiruzen was dead, so how could he check on him. And Itachi never met the elders. The only person he met was Sasuke...(Which Sasuke found him by the way)

So I'm guessing by process of elimination, your answer is Sasuke?



> Not hard to grasp.  Itachi was sent as a spy. A spy watches over something. He watched over Akatsuki and insured that Obito didn't breach the agreement to not send full engagements to Konoha.


I think a spy is implied to do more than watch over something. But the truth regarding Itachi is that he was utilized to further the Akatsuki goal even if he didn't want to. It was him that recruited Deidara, which captured Gaara. And he visibly was showcased participating the in the ritual to seal the Bijuu's. What does in matter if he served to keep Akatsuki from attacking Konoha while in life. As the nine tails needed to be sealed last anyways. And Obito not only double crossed him after death, but interfered with his plans for Sasuke.(Earlier you accuse me trying to disrespect Itachi characters, but I don't believe I quite done that up until now. Allow me to showcase just a taste of what disrespect of Itachi looks like. But in honesty it isn't disrespect you just have to know fully know the character in order to counter it. You refuse to acknowledge the Sasuke side of things I can't make you. But allow me to show you just how "Itachi looks" without INCORPORATING HIS OTHER HALF)



> Hiruzen never told him to send information back. We also see ZERO evidence of Itachi sending intel back.


But if he is a spy, doesn't sending intel back automatically come with the position? Otherwise what purpose did he serve outside of helping Akatsuki's goals? But you are right we do have zero evidence of Itachi sending intel back, which means he was just another tool for Akatsuki?



> And there is more evidence he didn't. He was surprised by Jiraiya knowing about his mission, and was surprised that Kakashi knew as well. Kisame is literally with him almost 24/7, so how is he giving info? He  returned to Konoha in Part one on Nagato's orders, *and used it as a way to remind the elders he was ALIVE*.



But in regard to the *BOLD*

Hallelujah!!!! You finally stuck to just panel for once.



> That means he wasn't even giving intel to the leaf for the 4 years he was in the Akatsuki for, if the elders needed to be reminded about that LMAO.


So basically he did nothing, but further Akatsuki goals? And wait for Sasuke to put him out of his misery? Since now we know that Itachi had four years to do what ever Akatsuki members do in their downtime. Could you please explain how and when Itachi began his magical journey to acquire "Totsuka and Yata?"



> The elders were the only people who knew about Itachi and his mission, so they are the only people who could have been receiving "intel". This is what I'm talking about it. You keep making shit up.


Oh I didn't make up anything. I don't even know what this part has to do with what I previously posted. I never expanded on his "spy mission" beyond the . And the only time I questioned it is in this very post, and it a rather sarcastic response.



> Konoha ninjas had to get the intel themselves. That wasn't Itachi's role.


So Itachi role was essentially pointless?



> Plus you're a liar. We see Obito giving Pain the orders to go to Konoha while Itachi is set to die in his battle against Sasuke.


Oh I am a liar....I said /Thread, as I didn't expect another response for you....And you proved me wrong.

But outside of that...Nope. I don't recall ever questioning if Obito gave pain the orders to attack Konoha while Itachi was set to die in his battle with Sasuke. But you are welcome to prove me wrong. As if you are going to keep calling be a liar. I want to be proven to be the low down dirty "Liar" you claim me to be.



> And Pain is seen attacking the Village AFTER Itachi died. So yes, Pain by extension was kept from Konoha, because his boss, Obito, was not allowed to give him the green light. What part of  "Konoha is no longer off limits" don't you understand?


And this is a response to what exactly?



> I don't respond to all your points, because most of them are inconsequential or things that have been already beaten to death, or things that I don't even disagree on rofl.


But how would you know that if I can clearly tell from your responses that you are not reading everything? Nothing is more clearer than how you opened up this response. I litterally posted that Flame Control is another name for Kagutsuchi THREE TIMES. I further elaborated that Viz translation does not utilize Kagutsuchi to transcribe Sasuke's second dojutsu ability at any point. And if you thing some of my points are inconsequential or things already beaten to death, then why is this RESPONSE SO OFF BASE IN REGARDS TO WHAT I ADDRESSED PREVIOUSLY? And the issue isn't whether you agree or disagree. It's an issue of  "Respect of someone's TIME" Note: I'm not asking you to reply to everything, I'm merely asking you to apply the same effort in your response that I'm giving you. You are essentially responding without NO AIM. You accuse me of lying or putting words in your mouth. But how can I  see where I made that error unless you start quoting me correctly. How can I concede to something if I don't know what I have been proven wrong in regards. You don't have to answer everything. Delete whatever it is you agree with or you find inconsequential to your previous points. And respond to what's there. You are forcing me to work EXTRA HARD. As I have to ESSENTIALLY PIECE TOGETHER MYSELF WHAT GOES WITH WHAT. And I can remember my points quite well. My opponents as well. But the problem is you aren't sticking to just one point. Somethings have already been addressed and somethings I have no clue what it reference to.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 21, 2019)

> I didn't drop any points at all, I simply said I would get to them later.


You're not. Because the way this is going, you're not going to be able to remember what is what. What has been addressed in the following post. And in the meantime I actually want to take a look at your other thread, and I may want to bring up something there. You responded to another post in another thread, that I need to address as well. Long story short. It literally a waist of your time and mine for you to try to go back and answer points, that you clearly had no passion in regards to. You already played your hand in regard to aspect of Itachi you want to discuss. And while you showcased you showcased on some regards that you are willing to discuss his character in other elements outside of his power. You only give it your all when it's in regards to his power. As I've proven I'm down to discuss Itachi in any regards, but I'm not going to give him any better treatment than I do the other Uchiha's. Including Sasuke.



> I changed my mind as of my previous post for the most part, because you keep lying, such as by lying and claiming I dropped the points.


But didn't you just cite you, "You'll get to them later"

If I can't read your mind. And I see that your response doesn't address everything you brought up previously. That means that you dropped points. But I'm not complaining. Because most of the points you dropped were things you brought up to begin with. I believe the only thing I brought up that wasn't relevant to the previous post. Is just how dark the Uchiha massacre can get. And while you touched some aspects of it, I went into way, way, more detail. I wanted you see if you really, really love Itachi like you say you do. Because to be quite honest. He never did anything right. Earlier you stuck your argument that he was a grown ass man, but if you look at his character through an unbiased lens you'd see he was fundamentally a child at heart.(But I'm not going to elaborate further, I'm just going to see if you take the bait)



> But to address one of them now, You twisted Itachi threatening Danzo with releasing intel to other unallied villages to being a violent action, when said intel was never said to be able to cause a war.


No, no, no....

Please read it as it is.""

Or in the VIZ TRANSLATION."That if anything were to happen to you. He would leak all of the intelligence he had on Konoha to unaligned nations."

I didn't twist anything, as it's a clear as day as to what his intention were in regards the doing action, had anything were to happen to Sasuke. Whether it would have been sufficient to start a War is unknown, as we do not actively know how much intel he had on Konoha, but it was enough to Danzo and the Elders in check.



> And it still falls within pacifism, because that was not even a violent threat.


And this is what happens when you don't address arguments when they are first presented. I am force to repeat myself. We don't need to go into much detail in regards to what is what, as we got the manga.


If this is ITACHI, "The Trauma Turned Itachi Into a boy who LOATHED WAR and strife, and only desire peace." Then no matter the type of practice of Pacifism you arbitrated he's Practicing he is still risking war, which is
the very thing you accuse the Uchiha of doing, by actively threatening, ""

As the only reason to do that would be to put Konoha at risk of WAR.


> And it was done because he had no practical way of defending Sasuke while he was moving about with Kisame and Akatsuki.


No. It still goes against HIS IDEAL OF PACIFISM. The LOATHING WAR PART WAS NEVER ORIGINALLY ON THE TABLE. Only the violence part was in question. The type of Pacifism you arbitrated earlier only excuses the violence part. The AVOIDING WAR PART IS STILL THE FUNDAMENTAL PART OF ALL THINGS PACIFISM.

And no one is questioning why Itachi did it....Because as I said before when it comes to Sasuke he was a mess. Anything he ever was defined to be loses all meaning when it comes to Sasuke. Which I preached from the beginning, "But if the Sasuke fanbase wanted to, they'd demolish Itachi fans, in regards to Itachi. WE WERE, IS, AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN YOUR BEST POSTERS."

The proof in the pudding. Itachi's story in largely told through Sasuke. Which is why you are not going to add up if you don't incorporate more Sasuke into your arguments.



> The threat was meant to deter Danzo from harming Sasuke, because the agreement was that Sasuke would be spared in the uchiha massacre.


Already addressed this.... We know why he did it, but correct me if I ain't right you can't be a PACIFIST, YET WILLING TO RISK PUTTING A NATION A WAR IF SOMETHING WERE TO HAPPEN TO YOUR LITTLE BROTHER.(That's not how it works)

Is like saying I'm a vegetarian. But I love steak so much, I make an exception. The meaning of vegetarian is to avoid the consumption of meat, period.



> Since Defense wasn't an option, Itachi had to use a verbal threat of retaliation.


Now you are trying to twist the definition. And I'm not longer using wikipedia for this.
I've extracted what the actual manga said in regards to Itachi's character. And we are already making the exception for the use of violence. But here is not a question of violence. He is willing to risk Konoha going to War. As that's the only thing Danzo/The Elders feared.



> And Itachi's form of pacifism was already explained to you, he is willing to conduct violence in defense of someone else, even if he is opposed to his own actions.


And Itachi's form of pacifism still includes THE AVOIDING WAR ASPECT, AM I CORRECT? He is willing to risk Konoha going to war Sasuke was harmed, isn't that the very thing he killed the rest of his clansman for?



> Obito otherwise stated that Itachi never tried to harm Konoha as an Akatsuki member, but only pretended





But that doesn't excuse his threats to Danzo.



> How hard is it to understand that he PRETENDED to follow Nagato's orders, and then failed ON PURPOSE. HE PRETENDED TO FOLLOW AKATSUKI ORDERS.



How hard it t is for you to understand that the ONLY ONE MAKING THE FOLLOWING THE NAGATO'S ORDERS RELEVANT IS YOU.

I DON'T CARE ABOUT IT!

Which is why earlier arbitrated quite vividly.

 YOUR ?

Fuck all that...If we you want to keep the post length "PRACTICAL" then let's do that. JUST ANSWER THIS...


You are the one that wants to implement the following Nagato Orders details.
You are the one that wants to take a simple explanation into a COMPLEX ONE.

Obito already stated what ITACHI WANTED TO DO WITH HIS REVISIT TO THE LEAF. So I don't necessarily care about the technicalities when already know WHAT IT IS THAT ITACHI WANTED.(I only brought up the Nagato's Bitch aspect: Because you keep trying to to utilize Nagato as a scapegoat to admit the obvious....HE WAS THERE FOR SASUKE'S SAKE! But you can't simply admit that and LEAVE IT TO JUST THAT.



> That does not equate to the orders not existing.  We are literally going in circles. Kisame questioned why Itachi was retreating, and Itachi gave him the stamina excuse. The goal was clearly to capture Naruto, and Itachi made a good excuse for why said mission was being aborted.  Kisame knows nothing of Itachi's true motives, or his role as a spy for Konoha. He lied about Jiraiya's power level to make his excuse for retreating more convincing. Itachi said Kisame + more backup wouldn't allow them to beat Jiraiya, and we know Pain existed in Part One. What is your problem? Even in the beginning of Part 2, Kakashi believes that Jiraiya > Akatsuki in power.So there are several believe who believe that Jiraiya's hype as a Sannin is enough to deter the combined power of the Akatsuki.
> 
> Doesn't mean its true. And even going by your BS logic, Itachi failing to capture naruto and fleeing from Jiraiya just means that Jiraiya was stronger than him and he was forced to retreat.


See what I said above?

I was trying to show you that you only have two options here.

Either he was Nagato's Bitch or Or he was TRYING FULFILL HIS DUTY AS BIG BROTHER.
(You decide which route you want to take Mr.)






> Stop making stuff up. The anime adds in shit all the time. Look at Kn6 Naruto vs the infamous Toon Deva. Or Gaara vs Deidara in the manga vs Gaara vs Deidara in the anime. Or Asuma vs Hidan in the manga vs Asuma vs Hidan in the anime. Two different fights. The animators take their own liberties on shit all the time. PROVE that the anime filler is canon, or gtfo.


Never said the Anime doesn't have it's problems, and I never went past the Sakura vs. Sasori fight, regarding Shippuden. But I do know the following fights are far, far better in the anime: All of the Sasuke retrieval arc. The Gaara vs. Deidara battle. The taka vs. Bee battle. The Madara vs. the Shinobi alliance battle. And especially the final battle between Naruto and Sasuke.I don't mind filler, as long as it doesn't contradict what was shown in manga. For instance I only seen a snippet of the Kage Summit arc, and I don't like how the handled it. I also utilize the anime to validate certain scenes that was unclear by the manga such the infamous "Itachi vs. Bee" Kenjutsu fight. People say Itachi utilized a Kunai to counter act Bee's Acrobat, but a Kunai is never shown in Itachi's possession before and after the scene. And the actual scene is just a blur, with the only noticeable thing Itachi seems to be doing is fleeing. I utilize the anime to clarify that scene. It was also the Anime that confirmed to me that Sasuke has utilize Ameno with Perfect Susano'o, as the manga showcases it. But since it wasn't emphasized you'd easily overlook it; if you weren't paying attention.(I actually only found out he did that with Narutopedia, in which I quickly went to see the anime adaptation of the fight to confirm it. And finally took a look at the scene in the manga, and was able to see that he did)

And if you payed attention to my earlier post. I already argued the whole canon thing. It's a Naruto FORUM CONCEPT. Because if I WAS EXCLUSIVELY AN ANIME WATCHER, AND I DIDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER.(EVERYTHING WOULD BE CONSIDERED CANON TO ME) And the anime filler I am using isn't necessarily filler it is BASED ON SOMETHING.(The Itachi light novel part 1 and 2' although it doesn't follow it down to the letter) And it also provides something the manga doesn't have. It's not if the anime team aren't doing their homework in regards to "CERTAIN THINGS" some fights are simply too short; prime example the final fight between Naruto and Sasuke. And does a far better job is displaying ideas characters should be able to do, but simply didn't. I'm interested to see the Kaguya battle in the anime, as when I first read it in the manga, I wasn't quite found of it at all. But I don't want to sit through a through the episodes that involve her backstory, as I'm not that interested in the character.




> Sasuke was said to be more precious to Itachi than the village, and I never denied it.  So I don't want to hear it.
> I addressed Itachi's character in full in my first post, whether you want to acknowledge it or not is your problem.


Never said you didn't acknowledge. I just arbitrated you spent more time transcribing FEATS AND POWER, than you did focusing on the actual character.





> Stated to be a greater shinobi than Hashirama, while also making *mistakes in how he handled Sasuke.*


Oh boy, did you or did you not state when you initially responded to me that you skimmed over my points? But skimmed was exactly what you did. As the subject in question was in regards Sasuke. We were questioning something that had to do with Sasuke, mate.


> Both of things were said in my original post, and had nothing to do with power levels. Concession accepted.


And did you read my initial response to your post. Please do. Because I had to do allot of fact checking. I had to add some things you purposely left out. I did a better job of summarizing Itachi than you initially did.



> ROFL.  What flavor is Sasuke's semen, I'm curious? We are TOLD that Itachi held back.


That would be cute, if you were original. And I've not nearly showcased the amount of Sasuke wank, that you showed Itachi.



> So the details ARE relevant. You legit just typed out that Sasuke won the fight against Itachi.


Yes, yes I did. But don't Itachi fans ignore the details when it comes to Itachi vs. Nagato? Itachi vs. Kabuto?
How about that "Totsuka and Yata" wank action? Yeah let's not play this game. It won't end well for you.


> That is dishonest, and one of your worst lies yet. He did not win.


But the manga literally says he does. And my, my you are a hypocrite. Unwilling to accept Sasuke's word in regards to the fight. Zetsu words in regards to the fight. But yet cling to statements such as Hashirama's Itachi was a greater shinobi line....Or the Zetsu "Totsuka and Yata" makes Itachi invincible line? Please don't make yourself look bad in these mean streets.


> Itachi killed himself after sealing amaterasu in Sasuke's eye.


Does it really matter. I don't the question was if Hebi Sasuke was stronger. I think the question was simply in regards to who won the fight.





> Sasuke's back was against the wall and in fear yet you cite Sasuke's dishonestly claiming he killed Itachi as part of your argument?


Yet Itachi wasn't trying to kill him, so why does it matter?


----------



## Sapherosth (Jul 21, 2019)

These long essays are rather pathetic.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 21, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> These long essays are rather pathetic.


And why oh why would you care?

And correct me if I ain't right, but didn't you attempt to give your two cents earlier? Long story short: Mind your business.


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## HappyBurrito (Jul 21, 2019)

*Wow, you guys sure care a lot about Itachi.*


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 21, 2019)

Shazam said:


> My fav is *BM Minato* tho… ?


der iz noe such charakter!


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## Shazam (Jul 21, 2019)

wooly Eullerex said:


> der iz noe such charakter!


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 21, 2019)

Shazam said:


> httpheart-of-gold-epis1/


thats kleerly a dead zombie, where is his arm  at? see!
stop this madness!!!


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## Mawt (Jul 21, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> (And this time, although white Zetsu is still facing the readers, the though bubbles are coming from the LEFT, OFF OF ZETSU FACE COMPLETELY.


You can tell which Zetsu is speaking by looking at the font of the text.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

He's not, he's Mid-Kage; people simply like to pretend Hashirama, Naruto, and Boruto Kages don't exist, and downplay Tobirama


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 21, 2019)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> You can tell which Zetsu is speaking by looking at the font of the text.


True, but I don't really know how to post actual pages of panel. So that would have been, much, much more difficult to explain without me being able to actual showcase the actual page itself.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 21, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> And why oh why would you care?
> 
> And correct me if I ain't right, but didn't you attempt to give your two cents earlier? Long story short: Mind your business.



Because the long shit posts are populating the page. I want to see good content, not shit ones like yours. 

Understand? Actually, I'll just hide you. Should be easier. Bye byeee


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## Mawt (Jul 22, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I've been told that. And believe me I've tried. But every time I try to post a scan even from the site I get my links from. It gives me.
> *
> "There is an image attached to your post from an insecure connection. Only images from HTTPS connections are allowed.
> 
> ...


Oh, then all you need to do is add an s at the end of the http. Should work then.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 22, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> Because the long shit posts are populating the page. I want to see good content, not shit ones like yours.


That's not even a valid argument. Considering there's essentially no limit to how many pages a thread can be. And considering the thread was essentially dead at the time me and third started are little exchange. Your opinion is even more questionable. 

And correct me if ain't right didn't I body you earlier?(So you weren't always playing the role of "spectator" then.)

And frankly I don't think your opinion on my post are valid. Because I'm well aware you didn't read them AT ALL.(But you know who did? ME. And I'm well seasoned on how to make a good post. And considering most of my post was simply addressing thirds arguments. You are kinda low key trashing him, not me.) So who are you kidding. It's not as if I've ever seen you post any better, as you've NEVER bested me in an argument in your posting career buddy. AND I DON'T IGNORE ANYBODY! So let's not play games here.



> Understand? Actually, I'll just hide you. Should be easier. Bye byeee


No need to hide. Just show some "Respect" for your fellow posters. Not everybody is going to have the same opinion as you 1.Or the same passion in regards to the craft of posting itself,  as you 2. And if you really, really was in "Search of good content" like say you were. Then that means you're playing the role of "spectator" therefore the length of someone post shouldn't bother you in the least. Especially if the number of poster participating in the discussion is essentially TWO. And correct me if I ain't right isn't "dibating" is the fundamental purpose of the battledome.

So whether it be "partipate" or "spectator" I'm very, very experienced in both. I read far more than I post. So I'm probably more experienced than you there, as well. "Good Content" is subjective because that's largely tied to your personal beliefs, but effort is most certainly not. And I've never cheated anyone in regards to effort. In a while. As you clearly can see.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 22, 2019)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Oh, then all you need to do is add an s at the end of the http. Should work then.


Yeah I make sure the S is there. And I've tried testing posting a few images earlier. And while I was able to get it to work. I've got it to work before. But the question that I still have are. Does it work for every site? And even then sometimes the same picture/panel that I've posted before are the very one's that is preventing me from successful submitting my present response.

And it's rather frustrating to spend  sometimes hours crafting a post. using multiple pages of panel taken from different sites. Only to hit the "Post Reply" button and be told one of the links to the panel, picture of panel, and sometimes pictures themselves. Are not usable. Then I'm forced to spend another thirty minutes or more finding out what works or what doesn't. And alternative sites or sources to the one's that don't. The only reason I stumbled on the method I have for posting link is because I've observed someone successfully posting links from there.

(Also I really appreciate you trying to help me post more effectively. As not only am I sort of envious when see posters able to post pages of panel, when I've never been able to consistently do that. A few months back a newer poster message me trying to learn the fundamental of what, I assume, how to post more effectively. And I gave him the honest truth that I probably wasn't the best poster to ask. Because at the time I was just learning how to do the to fundamentals myself, as took a long break when the manga ended. And I had to learn the hard way that most sites that I use to get scans from. Had effectively blocked their sites from being used to do just that.)


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Jul 23, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Correct me if I ain't right, but the Databook only cites Sasuke created the technique on the spot to protect himself from A4's attack? You do know that the key word there is, "SASUKE CREATED," emphases on Sasuke? That doesn't dismiss Tobirama's words. Which implicates heavily that he'd seen it it done before. And how am I lying when I'm arbitrating mainly on what the manga showcases? You talk about having to repeat shit, but clearly you are the one forcing me to repeat shit....As I said before (WHICH YOU HAVE TO GRASP) YOU SPENT YOUR TIME DOING YOUR HOMEWORK ON CERTAIN ASPECT REGARDING KAGUTSUCHI, BUT YOU YET TO TAKE INTO FACT?
> 
> 
> (I told I have trouble posting any other scans from other site, if it's too small to see look up the VIZ TRANSLATION yourself)
> ...




I read your shit. And its BS. Do you know what creating means? Tobirama created FTG. Minato didn't create FTG, but learned and improved on it. Two different things. Sasuke created Enton:Kagutsuchi, meaning it never existed before. 

You are taking Tobirama's words out of context.

The sky is blue
I am feeling blue.

Same word, same spelling, but completely different meanings depending on CONTEXT. Tobirama has never seen flames shaped into an arrow before. That's all. Nothing to do with Amaterasu.






IpHr0z3nI said:


> But Black Zetsu isn't the best person when it comes to judging strength? As he is the COACH OF KAGUYA, NOT KAGUYA HERSELF. Black Zetsu is very, very weak in comparison. And the same Black Zetsu was giving a similar wank to all of Itachi's
> MS abilities? "I"(And this time, although white Zetsu is still facing the readers, the though bubbles are coming from the LEFT, OFF OF ZETSU FACE COMPLETELY. Which implies the Black Zetsu was speaking here.We also have a previous panel that showcases both faces of Zetsu prior to, which makes it crystal clear that BLACK ZETSU is the one speaking)
> Meanwhile Tsukuyomi would later be debunked as the most powerful Genjutsu, and we don't need a statement to validate that Amaterasu isn't the strongest physical attack.




This is nonsense. Do I need to be as good as Mayweather or Mike Tyson or Muhammed Ali to know they are the strongest boxers in their respective weight classes of their time? Black Zetsu loves watching fights. He knows what he is talking about. So concession accepted.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> And what did I state? Oro, , which your panel showcases down to the letter.



Your're lying. Reflexes aren't voluntary, especially when you are taken  off guard:  It takes a certain amount of time for your brain to respond to stimulus, and the unconscious brain always acts before the conscious brain.
And Orochimaru showed surprise by saying "eh"?  a sign he got wtfjusthappenedblitz'd. He didn't see the blade move because his eye to brain reflexes were slow. The fact his sentence was cut off shows the speed. The blade was in his chest faster than he could realize. He shrugged off the attack afterward because he realized it was weak, still doesn't change the speed feat.

He could react to Sasuke's chidori involuntarily due to the attack being slow. And we have seen Orochimaru reacting to other attacks in the manga, even to shit that can't kill him, like Hiruzen's adamantine staff.


Even SM Kabuto was reacting to every attack thrown at him, even shit he could tank. Orochimaru couldn't react. Whether he was trying to dodge the attack or not is irrelevant. He couldn't see it in the first place and it was right in front of him. Since when does talking prevent you from reacting? another one of your lies.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> A. Sasuke's attack was noted to be particularly fast.
> B. Oro wasn't in the middle of a speech, and Sasuke's attack had to pierce through the wall first, which probably prompted Oro to be on guard. Not that it matters, as chidori sharp spear, was never hyped for it's speed either.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yeah, once again Nagato was Immobile. And I don't know how calculated Nagato being 40 feet away. I don't honestly think the blade is that long. Though Kishi isn't exactly consistent when it comes to size. . Which is very much a smokescreen, and I don't care if you debunked the issue before because I'm not going to extend any extra effort to read your additional argument from another thread, when you aren't even reading all of mine HERE.(Although I did skim through it, and I like watching a good debate. Perhaps I take a look at it later.) I don't recall Nagato ever being able to react to attacks coming out of a smokescreen without having access to Rinnegan ability to see extra fields of visions.
> (But you're welcome to prove me wrong)
> 
> And once again I don't have an issue with Yata/Totsuka in regards to what they do(I disagree with your PRAISE OF THEM, but to each is their own)....The only issue I raised was in regards to where they originated.




Way to miss the point. Also ,Stop lying. Preta Path and Shinra Tensei don't require mobiility. All Nagato had to do was activate them in response to the blade's thrust, just like he does to any other ninjutsu.  Concession accepted. And Oro was also looking directly at the blade. Both targets were bltiz'd. Reflexes has nothing to do with mobility. I could care less what you read or don't read. The fact you still responded to the point without crosschecking the facts proves your dishonesty. At least when I postponed your points, I didn't address them again until I did  research on the matter. Shows you don't care about the truth, as evident by what you claimed here in this quote.  And lol at the smokescreen mattering  when Nagato's eyes are angled up at the blade, showing that he saw it coming,  and even the reader can see there is a large amount of distance between the smoke and Nagato, and there is a big yellow blade in between.

And don't even try to change the goalposts. The Totsuka blade has only been used twice on panel, and both times it blitz'd its opponents without a mental reaction. And don't downplay Nagato's reflexes either. He can control multiple bodies at once in different locations, showing how efficient his reflexes are. Nagato was quick enough to react to both KCM Naruto and Bee with shinra Tensei and preta path respectively. Those two feats plus Black zetsu's comments are enough to say it can blitz Kaguya. And don't even shift the goalposts either. Kaguya did not absorb all ninjutsu that was thrown at her. She claimed to be immortal, and never said to what degree.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> The other Uchiha couldn't and wouldn't have done squat without Fugaku's Orders.
> 
> And I believe Konoha's actions was painted as BLACK AS COULD BE. Not only was the truth hidden from the rest of the population, but even Itachi himself, who was operating under orders, deemed it to be a crime punishable only by Death by a Uchiha like him aka Sasuke's hands. And of course Danzo got what coming to him as well by that very same Sasuke. Note: Sasuke was on the verge of crushes the leaf with no resistance with Oro, team hawk and the FOUR HOKAGE'S BACKING HIM. But Sasuke chose to the path of trying to understand Itachi actions over his own personal feelings of revenge.





Stop lying. We have seen that even a more powerful Uchiha leader than Fugaku,  in Madara, could be disavowed by the uchiha clan if there is enough dissent. This is also common sense. If you actually studied any world history, or even watched a decent Netflix Crime Drama,  you would know that leaders also need to strike a balance and listen to their  followers, otherwise the leader gets overthrown, exiled, or worse.:



The fact that Fugaku went behind the clan's back and started plotting a different method of a coup than they agreed upon just shows you how much control he has over his followers. And If Fugaku's coup attempt failed, the elders would kill him and Itachi, and then the rest of the uchiha clan would start the coup in vengeance  anyways.







IpHr0z3nI said:


> Are you following Tobirama's nonsense again? None of showcased Uchiha unlocked their sharingan through hate.
> I don't want to go into too much detail because you probably won't read it.
> But to keep the story short: Sasuke's sharingan progression
> 
> (It's a short video, so you shouldn't mind watching it all the way through)



Don't make stuff up. Tobirama himself said that no other clan bar the Uchiha knows Love the best. HE is fully aware of the sharingan mechanics. The problem comes when they lose a loved one, as then they dissent into hate much more times than not, and their sharingan boosts their strength. Just like at Sasuke during the FKS arc for proof. That was what Tobirama feared.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 23, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> The quote on quote "Madara sympathizers" only first emerged after . However they weren't at the point of rebellion. As alluded to by Obito, . . The .





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Interesting philosophy, I hope that's not how you think in real life.
> And once again you are trying to play down the condition in which the Uchiha were in? The same rights as before, A? Well that would explain why they would rebel? Because if the Uchiha were just the co-founders of the village along with the Senju....They should be entitled to the same rights as the Senju? Which is everything the Uchiha did not have. As, I said before. The reason why Uchiha fans, Sakura fans, and then some root for Sarada so hard, is that she would be the first Uchiha Hokage. A position that would be deemed impossible prior to the Uchiha massacre.
> 
> And just for emphases. Just to show you how disconnected the Uchiha were from the village pre-Massacre. The fact that Fugaku needed Itachi help because he was quote on quote, ""(If that isn't enough to showcase to you just how disconnected from the village the Uchiha was, I don't what is)




The Uchiha aren't entitled to anything. We have seen that the election of the hokage come down to a combination of being selected by the previous hokage/ approval from the Land of Fire/ Village through popular support. If an Uchiha fit the bill, they would have been elected. Tobirama is only one person, and not everyone shared his hate toward the Uchiha.


Don't make stuff up dude. The Madara sympathizers died down, as  during Hiruzen and Minato's time, the Uchiha were proud of being in charge of the village's security.


 The Uchiha became the "Senju lackeys" as Tobi said. Which is why a coup didn't happen prior to nine tails attack. During the nine tails attack, we literally see a sharingan in Kyuubi's eyes. Everyone fighting Kurama knew what was up, prior to Minato using the contract seal on Obito. The elders had every right to suspect the Uchiha.

What you fail to understand is, Konoha was justified in surveillance. The way they went about it was wrong, sure. But just like in real life, when a threat to national security is revealed it must be investigated by the government.  The mistake Konoha made was making the surveillance wide scale and having Konoha Black OPs humiliate the uchiha by doing open and wide spread surveillance after the relocation, and relocation itself was flawed in execution, but still justified. Konoha shouldn't have alienated the entire clan in that way, and instead should have relied on people like Itachi and Shisui to do standard, non invasive, FBI detective work to try to gather information on the Uchiha behind the attack.

The Uchiha however failed to try and make the effort to gain the trust of the village and help in the investigation, and instead of peacefully trying to resolve the conflict, the Uchiha began acts of* treason b*y having Itachi join the Anbu Black OPS purely so Fugaku could gather intelligence for his coup. They refused to be the bigger "man" in the conflict. That is where the Uchiha fucked up. Both sides messed up, I simply asked you not to sugarcoat the Uchiha side.  By the time of Shisui's death, Itachi had been a double agent for  (click the 6 months for link, it should link to the scan). Shisui was supposed to end the coup that was being plotted, but it failed, and he suicided. Itachi still bought Hiruzen time immedateily after that , as per Hiruzen's request, and at least 2 days after Shisui died, Hiruzen reached out to the clan and they refused to listen or change their ways, and instead continued to put pressure on Itachi and refused to call off the coup. We know a lot of time passed after Shisui's death as well, " a long time plus a week plus some change in fact":




That's why Danzo  eventually stepped in and told Itachi to just bring the curtain down on his clan. A peaceful solution could not be met because the Uchiha refused. Itachi then sought out Tobi for help in the massacre, and we know that Hiruzen approved of Danzo's actions as well, as Edo Hiruzen outright told Sasuke he had Itachi kill his clansmen.  So stop acting like they are innocent. They got struck first, plain and simple. Even if Fugaku was willing to fight bloodlessly, The elders have the right to kill him so he can't commit treason again and for their own safety,  and that goes for all the other uchiha who also wanted blood as well, and would be free to act after hearing of Fugaku's death. Massacring the whole clan including any children also ensured that in the future, there were no uchiha who could learn the truth and use it as motivation to attack the village to avenge their rebellious  clan members. Itachi's "mistake", Sasuke, learned the truth, and look what happened.

And don't make stuff up.  Fugaku was given an invitation to Sasuke's graduation by Hiruzen, so he had plenty of ways to communicate with the Government, he just refused. He wanted secret intel on the elders so he could best plan a method for his coup.






It took Itachi killing the whole clan for Fugaku to finally understand Itachi, and even then, he  still said their philosophies disagreed. On his deathbed, he stood true to the coup, but refused to stand against his son, who clearly wasn't gonna help him in his desire to overthrow Konoha. So he died with his wife. I already told you that Fugaku could NOT read ITachi by his own admssion, and you retorted with some BS example. If I can predict a narutoforum debator's stance on something, it means I CAN READ THEM.


The whole point of Konoha shouldering the blame on Itachi wasn't just to keep their hands clean, it was also to preserve the Uchiha name by having Itachi charged with patricide. If the truth broke out, the Uchiha would be considered just as guilty as Konoha in the conflict, if not worse, because at least Hiruzen was trying to open peace talks, which the Uchiha refused.






IpHr0z3nI said:


> ? Yeah the circumstances didn't help none, but I think you underestimate the power of one individual vs. Nameless fodder.
> 
> We seen Pain essentially solo Konoha.
> 
> ...



Finally, an unbiased point from you for once. Still doesn't matter. You can't assume that a surprise attack at night time from the inside  is the equivalent of a full scale battle during the day, like the ones the Uchiha and Senju engaged in the past. The Uchiha were stated to be the strongest clan in the world alongside the Senju, so it's not at all surprising that Uchiha can compete. Itachi and Obito winning against the clan in the conditions they did isn't as impressive as you are claiming to to be, and at best, would be a feat for Itachi and Obito, not an antifeat for the Uchiha clan.  Itachi is anbu black ops, which you forget specializes in stealth and assassination. So he didn't necessarily fight every one of the Uchiha fairly, as far was what the manga had shown us.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> And most of that is just this post. I'm sure I've invalidated many of your arguments with a scan. And I obviously do know the story better than you do. As evidence by both our responses? I'm not cookie cutting my way to a "Post Reply" I'm not just selectively choosing what aspects I want argue and what I don't. I watched part 1 because I didn't get into Naruto until the first VOE Naruto fight, and it was my interest in Sasuke's character that got me hooked to actually watch it from the beginning. You do know that most old manga, were introduced to the Americans through the anime. No one talks about DB manga. They talk about the anime. Yu Yu Hakusho. Inuyasha. So on and so on. The anime was introduced to the American readers before the actual manga was.



This contains multiple lies, because you asked me to cite scans for two things that you should have known. So you don't know the manga better. You claim Itachi isn't invincible with Yata and Totsuka, so you don't know the manga better. You aren't smarter than me either, as you don't know what reflexes are, and also listed a bunch of headcanon about Pain as well regarding his fights. Concession accepted. And keep lying about selective posts, kid. I addressed to you my reasoning and you keep ignoring it, so concession accepted. I don't care about your excuses. Just don't talk shit when I have had to explain things to you that you didn't know. Ignorance is fine, but saying you know everything about the manga better than I when you have shown ignorance is a lie.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> But if he is a spy, doesn't sending intel back automatically come with the position?



Not necessarily. This is the third time in which you have failed to consider that there are multiple defnitions for these things, and each has subtle differences.  You can spy without necessarily reporting information

2)


A person who keeps close and secret watch on the actions and words of another or others.






IpHr0z3nI said:


> So basically he did nothing, but further Akatsuki goals? And wait for Sasuke to put him out of his misery? Since now we know that Itachi had four years to do what ever Akatsuki members do in their downtime. Could you please explain how and when Itachi began his magical journey to acquire "Totsuka and Yata?"



He furthered Akatuski's goals because that's what he is required to do in exchange for Konoha's protection.... and he desired to be known as a traitor. Already explained in the canon by Tobi himself....
Itachi began searching for Totsuka right after leaving the village. We are literally told that Akatsuki are in search of new jutsu and techniques, and Black Zetsu already stated that the Totsuka Blade was being searched for which you keep ignoring while you cling to your fanfic about it being a Susano'o jutsu.
And mind you, your nonsense about the thought bubble doesn't add up. Because in most of the  occurences in that fight, Kishimoto, where possible, specifies which Zetsu is talking through the placement of the thought bubble. We see Zetsu only commenting on the blade after Orochimaru is being sealed and when Orochimaru mentions the blade first. And he only commented on Yata after it was continously shapeshifting and blocking attacks. and LOL at me not convincing other people of my arguments. I got tons of reputation points and swung hearts and minds with my post on Yata and Totsuka. Just because a few dolts disagree means nothing, and the number of people who agree with me is inconsequential to the truth.

:




IpHr0z3nI said:


> I didn't twist anything, as it's a clear as day as to what his intention were in regards the doing action, had anything were to happen to Sasuke. Whether it would have been sufficient to start a War is unknown, as we do not actively know how much intel he had on Konoha, but it was enough to Danzo and the Elders in check.



Doesn't disprove what I said at all. Itachi didn't threaten to kill Danzo/elders or Konoha. He threatened to release information, so its pacifist whether you like it or not. It also could have been a bluff, and its a bluff that Danzo won't ignore, since he values privacy, not only for the Village but also himself.
And I already told you Itachi's type of pacifism, not explaining it again, as you know what time it is. He is willing to do violence if necessary, in the defense of others. He is defending Sasuke's life by making a threat to Danzo.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> You are the one that wants to implement the following Nagato Orders details.
> You are the one that wants to take a simple explanation into a COMPLEX ONE.



No, just keep the manga facts straight. Itachi was in Konoha that day because he was sent to capture Naruto. Tobi didn't need to explain that reason, as the OTHER reason he was there was because Nagato's orders made it the perfect opportunity to check on Sasuke, which I never denied, but that was all Tobi needed to explain to Sasuke to keep things simple for his purposes of explaining Itachi's true motivations.. It's pretty funny that you can't allow both ideas to coexist in your statements and have this prideful need to only focus on Sasuke.  A character can't have TWO REASONS for doing something? This is a pointless disagreement at this point.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yes, yes I did. But don't Itachi fans ignore the details when it comes to Itachi vs. Nagato? Itachi vs. Kabuto?
> How about that "Totsuka and Yata" wank action? Yeah let's not play this game. It won't end well for you.



I'm too experienced for this. I have studied Itachi vs Nagato in depth, and it's funny how you bring up Itachi vs Kabuto, when not once he did bust out Totsuka and Yata in that fight, which is the only thing that matters in determining his power level, because that's him using his full power.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> But the manga literally says he does. And my, my you are a hypocrite. Unwilling to accept Sasuke's word in regards to the fight. Zetsu words in regards to the fight. But yet cling to statements such as Hashirama's Itachi was a greater shinobi line....Or the Zetsu "Totsuka and Yata" makes Itachi invincible line? Please don't make yourself look bad in these mean streets.



Don't be a tard. Nothing has ever contradicting Black Zetsu's statements about Itachi wielding Yata and Totsuka. In fact, the feats support it. Sasuke's statement is a blatant lie, as we the reader SAW what happened. By your asinine logic, the nine tails attack on Konoha  was a natural disaster because Tobi said so, when we SAW that he was the mofo that summoned it in the village rofl. Obito said that Itachi died in his battle against Sasuke, and from what we saw, Itachi killed himself. That isn't a win for Sasuke. A win would be if Sasuke ran chidori through Itachi's heart and then Itachi died.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 23, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> I read your shit. And its BS. Do you know what creating means? Tobirama created FTG. Minato didn't create FTG, but learned and improved on it. Two different things. Sasuke created Enton:Kagutsuchi, meaning it never existed before.


You? Read my shit? Well let's just put that to the test.

First and foremost you did not quote the data book properly. It said "Sasuke Created" emphases on Sasuke.

And yes, I know exactly what create means: ""



> You are taking Tobirama's words out of context.
> 
> The sky is blue
> I am feeling blue.


(So before I go on......We are operating with the UNDERSTANDING THAT KAGUTSUCHI = FLAME CONTROL, RIGHT.....I'm just saying this ahead of time because I'm not going to be using the VIZ TRANSLATION, AS NOT ONLY DO I PREFER KAGUTSUCHI. BOTH IMPLICATES THE SAME THING, AND I ONLY KNOW HOW TO CONSISTENTLY POST LINKS FROM THIS SITE )


*Spoiler*: __ 











"Tobirama's words are I've never seen a KAGUTSUCHI THAT STRONG"

There's nothing to take out of context. It implicates that he's seen a variation of KAGUTSUCHI before, even if it's not on the same level as the jutsu "SASUKE CREATED"

Note: I took the liberty to QUOTE BOTH BECAUSE I BELIEVE I CAN EXPLAIN HOW BOTH STATEMENTS CAN BE TRUE.

YOU CAN CREATE A SONG. AND THAT SONG CAN BE CONSIDERED ORIGINAL? BUT EVEN THEN IT CAN STILL BE PARTIALLY BASED OFF EARLIER IDEA/SONG. Hence the term  existing. WHICH MEANS WHILE THE SONG IS ORIGINAL; ALL THE IDEA BEHIND MAY NOT BE. You can apply this idea to almost anything you want. Cars, Phones, etc. etc.

In a previous post you already implicated that you had no clue what FLAME CONTROL is.....As your previous post....

""

And failed hard....Not only did you showcase that you weren't aware that the word  KAGUTSUCHI doesn't exist in the VIZ translation of the manga, at any point to begin with. You also kinda indicted yourself out on not knowing that whether it be , as they are one in the same. It's only utilize when exclusively transcribing Sasuke's SECOND DOJUTSU ABILITY, WHICH CAN EITHER BE KAGUTSUCHI OR FLAME CONTROL, DEPENDING ON THE TRANSLATION.
FLAME CONTROL IS NOT A TERM UTILIZED IN THE VIZ TRANSLATION TO TRANSCRIBE ANY OTHER MANIPULATION OF FLAMES OTHERS THAN THE FLAMES OF AMATERASU/ENTON. .(Note the Link is to what pops up when you type in, "FLAME CONTROL NARUTO". Note: There isn't anything other than SHOWCASING THE MANIPULATION OF FLAMES OF AMATERASU, AT LEAST FOR THE EARLIER ENTRIES.)

So am I a LIAR, OR YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

YOU MAY WANT TO CONCEDE THIS POINT. BECAUSE CLEARLY DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
"



> Same word, same spelling, but completely different meanings depending on CONTEXT. Tobirama has never seen flames shaped into an arrow before. That's all. Nothing to do with Amaterasu.


See above.

ONCE AGAIN: ""(NOTE: WHAT ARE MOST OF THE PICTURES, RELATING TO SASUKE, SHOWCASE HIM DOING)




> This is nonsense. Do I need to be as good as Mayweather or Mike Tyson or Muhammed Ali to know they are the strongest boxers in their respective weight classes of their time? Black Zetsu loves watching fights. He knows what he is talking about. So concession accepted.


This literally has nothing to do with what you're quoting. I merely SHOWCASED TO YOU THAT BLACK ZETSU WORDS ARE JUST THAT WORDS. HYPE. AND ARGUABLY HIS OPINION. As later on we'd see MADARA HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT OPINION OF AMATERASU.


*Spoiler*: __ 











And Kabuto would later arbitrate his opinion on Amaterasu as well.....


*Spoiler*: __ 










As was alluding to in my previous BLACK ZETSU STATEMENTS, ARE MERELY JUST HIS OPINION.

And even your statements, "Do I need to be as good as Mayweather or Mike Tyson or Muhammed Ali to know they are the strongest boxers in their respective weight classes of their time?" Are not necessarily a fact. No matter how popular an opinion is, it is still just that......AN OPINION.

And in regards to Black Zetsu Loves watching fights.....I like watching Basketball. That doesn't mean anything I state in regards to something associated with it; like who is the best player?  "Insert Player" a FACT. And I'll hold off on any concessions, as you didn't actually prove anything other than the fact that you don't know what an OPINION IS.. And linked . Which means you understand that opinion such as, "Mayweather or Mike Tyson or Muhammed Ali to know they are the strongest boxers in their respective weight classes of their time?" VIOLATES THE VERY THING YOUR LINK IS ARBITRATING.(KEEP PLAYING WITH ME)




> Your're lying. Reflexes aren't voluntary, especially when you are taken  off guard: [LINKHL]453016[/LINKHL] It takes a certain amount of time for your brain to respond to stimulus, and the unconscious brain always acts before the conscious
> And Orochimaru showed surprise by saying "eh"?  a sign he got wtfjusthappenedblitz'd. He didn't see the blade move because his eye to brain reflexes were slow. The fact his sentence was cut off shows the speed. The blade was in his chest faster than he could realize. He shrugged off the attack afterward because he realized it was weak, still doesn't change the speed feat.


Enough...We've already stated are differences in regards to both of those. And I'm not the only one that shares that OPINION.

Someone, who's not exactly a Sasuke fan, has already told you their opinion on it as well.



And you posted a very similar response you did to me previously....You even included Oro's reaction too




And he countered with a very similar response to my own....


Without indicating to have read my post. I'm not saying that might makes right. I'm simply pointing out that MAYBE YOUR OPINION OF TOTSUKA BLITZ/SPEED, IS JUST THAT. YOUR OPINION.

I showed you an example of a blitz in another thread.....And Totsuka showcasing isn't what many on the forums would call a BLITZ....I would gladly explain to you the difference, but I don't think here is the best place to do it.(You've now responded to me there, so I'll gladly explain to you there)



> He could react to Sasuke's chidori involuntarily due to the attack being slow. And we have seen Orochimaru reacting to other attacks in the manga, even to shit that can't kill him, like Hiruzen's adamantine staff.


(You see how good I am? I didn't even read this part of your post, and I've already countered it ABOVE)



> Even SM Kabuto was reacting to every attack thrown at him, even shit he could tank. Orochimaru couldn't react. Whether he was trying to dodge the attack or not is irrelevant. He couldn't see it in the first place and it was right in front of him. Since when does talking prevent you from reacting? another one of your lies.


Note: SM Kabuto was not in the same position as ORO WAS.....Oro was never indicated to be in a position to dodge anything. That form of Oro was never noted for his speed or reaction. That form of Oro was utilizing a power up that is noted to be HYPED REACTION SPEED. And just so you know we don't traditional associating "Blitz" with a jutsu....That's usually refers to exclusively to a characters actual movement speed.(Which is why I showcased to you earlier is considered a Blitz) And what you are dubbing as a "Blitz" for Totsuka is not.

Other wise this....


Would technically be considered a "Blitz" as well.....

And it would an even better "DEFINED" one at that, as we see the arrow being shot AFTER DANZO'S FORMS HIS LAST SEAL. And HITTING HIM IN THE SAME INSTANCE.(HIS HANDS WERE NEVER SHOWN TO MOVE FROM IT'S INITIAL POSITION.)

And UNLIKE TOTSUKA



Sasuke's arrows were actually confirmed to be FAST.

And before you ask NO THIS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO MAKE THIS A  ITACHI VS. SASUKE DEBATE...

I'M SHOWING WHY WE DON'T TRADITIONAL CALL TRADITIONALLY ASSOCIATE THE TERM "BLITZ" WITH A JUTSU. It's traditionally confined to a persons movement speed ONLY. Jutsu that very, very fast don't need to be dubbed as something which is essentially *Naruto Forum* concept.
As the manga does already does a good job of telling that a jutsu is fast.
For example: Amaterasu, Kirin, Susano'o arrow, etc. etc. And when it doesn't explicitly state; It showcases that a jutsu is fast by reacting faster/countering an establish fast jutsu or CLEARLY SHOWCASED TO BE ACTIVATING IN AN EXTREMELY FAST SITUATION. For example: Susano'o itself, Kamui(Kakashi), FTG,Kamui(Obito), summoning, reverse summoning, and the list goes on......And we don't dub "Blitz" because that's a term almost exclusively referring to ninja movement(Speed)

Note: No one isn't saying Totsuka isn't fast, it's just nothing that's ever been recognize outside of the Itachi fandom as a "Blitz". Also I don't understand the logic; considering that Totsuka is essentially a giant light saber that seals what it pierces. Wouldn't Itachi, in most situations, already have it extended. ? The Oro situation, unlike the , already had the blade extended. So technically, at least in the case of Oro, you are essentially hyping just the thrust of Itachi's Susano'o.(As Totsuka was already activated and the only thing that needed to be done is ) So technically what aspect of "Totsuka's speed" are Itachi fans trying to hype? As considering how other swords of Susano'o are used. Totsuka is only in it's optimal form when it's already fully manifested.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 23, 2019)

> Way to miss the point. Also ,Stop lying. Preta Path and Shinra Tensei don't require mobiility.


Are you sure about that?

Preta Path as utilized in it's most fastest situation by a MUCH FASTER CHARACTER.



STILL REQUIRED



Some movement.(Madara's arms had to be in a position to be in a postion....And while you don't have to utilize your hands to absorb; NOTE:  Besides Susano'o in the Naruto/Boruto series has EVER BEEN ABSORB)

And while Nagato doesn't technically have to move to utilize Shinrai Tensei. You also don't need to move to utilize Susano'o, yet that hasn't prevented a Susano'o user from being hit by a JUTSU/ATTACK. You still have to actively, you know, ACTIVATE THE ATTACK ITSELF.



> All Nagato had to do was activate them in response to the blade's thrust, just like he does to any other ninjutsu.


And Nagato has never been hit by a jutsu? Stop it.....Susano'o is far more faster, and has been utilized to react to JUTSUS/SITUATIONS in a instant, yet a Susano'o user has been hit on quite a few occasions.



> Concession accepted.


You do know what Concession means, right? You have to actually FIRST ACTUALLY VALIDATE YOUR ARGUMENT, AND SUCCESSFULLY COUNTER THE RESPONSE. IN ORDER TO DECLARE THOSE WORDS.

Here's an example how to utilize it: YOU ARE NOT KICKING THE SAME "FLAME CONTROL = (MANIPULATION OF ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF AMATERASU) THIS TIME. Which means you understand that "Kagutsuchi = Flame Control", right? That's an example of CONCESSION ACCEPTED.



> And Oro was also looking directly at the blade. Both targets were bltiz'd. Reflexes has nothing to do with mobility.


Reflexes has nothing to do with mobility? And how exactly does reflexes help, if you aren't able to move? I think one goes hand and hand with the other in ORO'S CASE. As has no other way to avoid Totsuka outside of movement. And I've already addressed the Oro situation with you  earlier. As did others.



> I could care less what you read or don't read. The fact you still responded to the point without crosschecking the facts


Like you been doing for almost the ENTIRE ARGUMENT? And I honestly don't know what exactly you referring to since you aren't getting into specifics. I'm assuming the SMOKESCREEN thing? Yeah, as I said. I'm not going to put in the extra work to search for an entirely different argument; in an entirely different thread. When you haven't showcased that same effort in responding to me.
Why didn't you bother explaining it here? Or better yet. Fishing out the argument there, and copy and paste it here. You clearly see another poster brought up the same argument in another thread. So why oh why do you expect something you "concocted" yourself to be KNOWN.



> proves your dishonesty.


Or that I value my time as much as the next poster.



> At least when I postponed your points, I didn't address them again until I did  research on the matter.


Considering you took so long to respond to them, and post this argument. And I've essentially, don't even remember what it is I brought up in our earlier arguments outside of a few things, as It's KINDA YOUR JOB IN THE FIRST PLACE TO ASSIST ME IN REMEMBERING MY POINTS BY ADDRESSING THEM; IMMEDIATELY AT THE TIME THEY PRESENTED THEM. Now you are expecting to go back and reread my post, and yours as well. To see what it is you are addressing.(I'm already spending hours to post the replies I'm currently giving. And you are asking me to essentially DO MORE RESEARCH. BECAUSE YOU WERE TO LAZY TO TACKLE EVERYTHING I'VE ARBITRATED EARLIER. Furthermore you also want me to RESEARCH AN ARGUMENT YOU WANT TO UTILIZE, IN ANOTHER THREAD, TO COUNTER ONE OF MINE? That's really, really quite UNFAIR TO ME. When I'm already showcasing that I'm taking the most time to respond to your post to BEGIN WITH.



> Shows you don't care about the truth, as evident by what you claimed here in this quote.  And lol at the smokescreen mattering  when Nagato's eyes are angled up at the blade, showing that he saw it coming,  and even the reader can see there is a large amount of distance between the smoke and Nagato, and there is a big yellow blade in between.


It isn't necessarily true just because you believe it. And considering just looking at the response of other posters in that thread, it's highly SUBJECTIVE TO BEGIN WITH. That means I'm not short changing you in the slightest. You have a whole thread dedicated to it. And considering that I've yet to see you repeat the argument to me or OTHERS. That means it's LIKELY A LAYERED RESPONSE. So it's probably better if I addressed it in your thread.(BUT THE PROBLEM IS I DON'T LIKE CREATING THREADS NOR DO I LIKE RESURRECTING OLD ONE'S. WHY DON'T YOU COPY AND PASTE THE RESPONSE HERE? THAT WAY IF A FEEL THE NEED TO RESPOND TO IT, I COULD SO WITH MAINTAINING A LOW PROFILES. I'M ALREADY KINDA INFAMOUS FOR MY LONG POST. I DON'T NEED ANYMORE NEGATIVE ATTENTION. I'VE ALREADY BEEN ATTACKED BY SEVERAL ITACHI FANS IN THIS THREAD FOR THE WAY I CHOOSE TO POST.

(Besides wasn't Nagato actually being controlled by Kabuto? At that point?

And I think you are misinterpreting the scene,



Nagato was much closer to the smoke than  he was after BEING PIERCED BY TOTSUKA. And just as the panel is implying: Itachi, Bee, Naruto, and Susano'o were being obscured from Nagato's vision by the smoke. Which means he was hit by the sword before he could even see Susano'o. And considering Kabuto, who was the one controlling him, blamed Nagato's . That means the option to utilize Shira Tensei and Preta Path, which I already addressed earlier, wasn't registering with Kabuto.



> And don't even try to change the goalposts.


You do know you've essentially are addressing two aspects of Totsuka here..."The Blitz" and the "The Origin". You are addressing more if we were to incorporate EVERYTHING YOU ARE TRYING TO ARBITRATE ABOUT THEM.

I was essentially just saying I don't have an issue in regards to what they do? And I mean in regards to what they actually do.(I out right stated I disagreed with your "Praise of Them" that includes "Totsuka Blitz" and the "Invincible" argument) Both in which I presented arguments against HERE.



> The Totsuka blade has only been used twice on panel, and both times it blitz'd its opponents without a mental reaction.


But Totsuka has been utilized to it's full potential IN IT'S FIRST SHOWCASING. We've seen it being utilized like any regular sword manifested by Susano'o, and it's sealing property against ORO. And the Nagato battle didn't give us any additional info about it besides the obvious; that it could deal with Edo's. The fact it's limited to just two showcasing actually one of the fundamental problems in your "Praise of Totsuka", as in both situations THE FEAT YOU ARE CLAIMING ARE "Blitz" are questionable? You know that. I've already pointed that out to you. As with others. Already presented a counter argument and example of why I wouldn't call any of Totsuka's showcasing "Blitz" And I've actually explain to you the entire philosophy of "Blitzes" ,and showcased to you in another thread what a "Blitz" is.(I will elaborate more on that in that thread)



> And don't downplay Nagato's reflexes either. He can control multiple bodies at once in different locations, showing how efficient his reflexes are. Nagato was quick enough to react to both KCM Naruto and Bee with shinra Tensei and preta path respectively. Those two feats plus Black zetsu's comments are enough to say it can blitz Kaguya. And don't even shift the goalposts either. Kaguya did not absorb all ninjutsu that was thrown at her. She claimed to be immortal, and never said to what degree.


Good god. Nagato wasn't even in control, And the fundamental reason of why he even opted to utilize the six paths of pains in the first place, can be explained  WITH THE CONDITION HIS EDO SELF WAS IN THE FIRST PLACE. I don't remember Nagato ever walking on his own. Yet doing an even complex maneuver such as dodging. And once again the ISSUES WITH Shinrai Tensei and Preta path, have already been addressed. And did you really just state he can blitz Kaguya? Yeah I never see you arbitrate any of this ridiculousness against others. And I've been reading almost all your responses in other threads. You were very, very subtle in your praise of Itachi. I don't know why you are attempting present such troll like responses here. Maybe you figured no one is going to catch them, but me.(As I'm clearly one of the only one's that reading them.) And already addressed issue with Kaguya and here absorption. She absorbed the one's composed of pure chakara, and was damage by the one's which still had some physical aspects to them. Even Nagato was hit first ....Before he was able to absorbs Bee's chakara. The same goes with Kaguya and Amaterasu. And NOBODIES EVER BEEN ABLE TO ABSORB SUSANO'O, WHICH IS WHY SHE OPTED TO EITHER DODGE IT OR DESTROY IT. I think you are operating with the assumption that all chakara has behave like preta path.

Note: How Preta path was able to absorb Jiriaya's Rasengan.


There's is a LARGE BARRIER BETWEEN HIM AND HIS BODY. Nagato/Preta path is the only one that has demonstrated absorbing chakara this way. All the other Rinnegan user with chakara absorption had to make direct contact with the person, in Sasuke's case, as he essentially unlocked it in the later battle part of the battle with Naruto.(And even Kurama may a comment that implied him to be "not as experienced as other Rinnegan user" utilizing the ability) Madara has never demonstrated the barrier; although he has absorbed larger/stronger jutsu.

We aren't given the specifics on how Kaguya chakara absorbtion works. We only know that she has it. And had successfully absorbed, at least the pure chakara based attacks, outside of Susano'o, which never touched her to begin with. We also know that she's immortal so she's good either way.(And I don't see why Kaguya is even relevant to the discussion unless you are serious about Itachi being able to BLITZ HERE WITH TOTSUKA.)


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 23, 2019)

> Stop lying. We have seen that even a more powerful Uchiha leader than Fugaku,  in Madara, could be disavowed by the uchiha clan if there is enough dissent. This is also common sense. If you actually studied any world history, or even watched a decent Netflix Crime Drama,  you would know that leaders also need to strike a balance and listen to their  followers, otherwise the leader gets overthrown, exiled, or worse.:
> 
> [LINKHL]453017[/LINKHL]
> 
> The fact that Fugaku went behind the clan's back and started plotting a different method of a coup than they agreed upon just shows you how much control he has over his followers. And If Fugaku's coup attempt failed, the elders would kill him and Itachi, and then the rest of the uchiha clan would start the coup in vengeance  anyways.


So more powerful = More Respected? And I don't think the situation is remotely the same. ..... The Uchicha wanted peace arguably more than the Senju's, which is why the turned against later Warnings.

And it isn't the fact you are necessarily wrong it's just that we don't have enough info in regards to any other Uchiha's outside Fugaku. And unlike the that generation of Uchiha with Madara. . Which is why Fugaku bare's more of the blame in regards to the events of the Uchiha massacre than Itachi, as Fugaku said himself, ""


And I think you are mistaking the scene....YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO THE WORDS CAREFULLY, AS I SEEN IT SEVERAL TIMES. First and foremost it validates what I said about Fugaku earlier, he's only following the wishes of the clan.(He also states he can't stop them) . So it was his job to come up with the plan for executing the coup to begin with, so he wasn't going behind the clans back and plotting a different method, period. The plan from the get go was for Fugaku to become the Hokage through controlling the Higher ups. It was Fugaku job to come up with a method to do that by hook or crook, AS FAR AS THE CLAN IS CONCERNED. The only thing  Fugaku kept hidden from the clan out of fear of what more, is the secret that he had access to the Mangekyo. But you ignore that Fugaku stated that he, "WANT'S TO AVOID USING BRUTE FORCE" which is why he hadn't revealed he had access to the Mangekyo.

And let's not get into if the coup failed because as the scene states, "Itachi if you are with me. We can take them by surprise and restrain the higher up." And correct me didn't you state, " ." Which implicate that the Uchiha massacre was highly successful using a similar approach.So you at least have to apply that same energy considering both situations would have included, "A young 14 yr old Itachi" and Fugaku, who not only had the MS, but consider by that same Itachi as stated in the other video I showed you, "Father is the worst possible enemy for me." But it's not the only details we've learned of Fugaku's plan. We know, "Some fighting will ensue" and we know the goal was a "Bloodless Revolution." They weren't even intending to KILL THE HIGHER UPS. And just who our the higher ups, we can assume .(You do know two of them aren't even confirmed shinobi's) So that just leaves Danzo and Hiruzen and Sarutobi, but it's not that simple. It's a surprise attack, so Danzo may not necessarily be prepared. And even if Danzo were to REVEAL HIS ARM IN FRONT OF SARUTOBI OR ANYONE'S WHO'S NOT APART OF ANBU, HE'LL ESSENTIALLY BE JUSTIFYING EVERYTHING THE UCHIHA'S ARE ATTEMPTING TO DO.(I don't think Koto is an option either, as Itachi already KNOWS HE HAS THAT AND HE WOULD HAVE TO DO SOME FURTHER EXPLAINING) And Itachi and Fugaku ain't coming out of pocket, they aren't attempting to KILL ANYONE; MERELY RESTRAIN. And in regards to Sarutobi, although he ultimately submitted to the Uchiha massacre that was only as a final solution, and he was likely .(Who knows what he would have done had he merely saw just Itachi and Fugaku; not attempting to KILL ANYONE; ONLY TRYING JUST TO JUST RESTRAIN THE HIGHER UPS. I'm not necessarily saying he would give up his power. But on that same token you cannot say he'll be able to act with blood lust either. You are essentially trying to dismiss the fact FUGAKU PLANS IS A FAR, FAR BETTER SOLUTION THAN THE UCHIHA MASSACRE, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY THE MASSACRE WAS OUT OF FEAR OF WHAT THEY THINK THE UCHIHA WERE PLANING. But if Fugaku actually SHOWS what his intents are I DON'T THINK THE ELDERS, WHO ARE EVEN RELEVANT POWER WISE, WOULD BE ATTEMPTING TO KILL ANYONE.(And once again Danzo wouldn't hardly able to rely on anything SHARINGAN RELATING WITHOUT JUSTIFYING THE OTHER SIDES ACTIONS) And even if the Itachi and Fugaku were killed by the Elders, which is highly unlikely, the rest of Uchiha would have fared far, far better than they did with out things actually turned in the manga. (And you ignore that the fact that Fugaku's lays it in far, far more detail than Obito or Orochimaru ever got into the reasons for the coup. And let's just say it was very, very much enough for the in I quote "The Uchiha to resent the village")




> Don't make stuff up. Tobirama himself said that no other clan bar the Uchiha knows Love the best. HE is fully aware of the sharingan mechanics. The problem comes when they lose a loved one, as then they dissent into hate much more times than not, and their sharingan boosts their strength. Just like at Sasuke during the FKS arc for proof. That was what Tobirama feared.
> 
> [LINKHL]453018[/LINKHL]



Don't HALF POST PART OF TOBIRAMA'S ANSWERS THAT SHOWCASES HE DOESN'T KNOW SHIT.



And what did I state? "None of showcased Uchiha unlocked their sharingan through hate." 

And did you seriously utilize FKS Sasuke to justify a page which only MENTIONS THE MANIFESTATION OF THE BASIC SHARINGAN? Correct me if I ain't right, but FKS Sasuke already had access to the MS, which already invalidate your argument.
And FKS only utilized hatred to improve SUSANO'O, as  was unlocked through what again? Oh yeah the desire to . As you stated before "Kagutsuchi was created", . And your databook statement in regards to "*Sasuke was forced into a predicament and in that moment, he created this technique*." is kinda contradicted by the manga. As .(And you wounder why I arbitrated earlier that Kishi contradicts himself, to justify the "Itachi contegency" argument.

Furthermore it's not even clear how even Madara himself obtained his "ONE TOMOE" sharingan. As it's implied he unlocked  and also implied he unlocked . As if it's the former than it's possible he unlocked from the lost of a loved one, as h, and only . But their is also strong evidence that he unlocked in the later seen as well.
Because as you can see.



If Madara had the access prior to this scene. Izuna didn't know. His father didn't know. And to add insult to injury Hashirama's dad implies he unlocked in there. And Hashirama's statement is ambiguous. But why is this relevant? Because if he unlocked it in the later then it was under the same circumstances that Sasuke unlocked his THREE TOMOE.  and a , WILLINGLY.(Which isn't exactly the way Tobirama is transcribing.)"
And you might want to take a look at the "SUMMARY OF SHARINGAN" THAT TOBIRAMA MADE WHICH, ESSENTIALLY JUSTIFIES WHY THE SHARINGAN HAS MANIFESTED AND EVOLVED UTILIZING SO MANY EMOTIONS/SITUATIONS OUTSIDE OF LOST OF A LOVE ONE OR HATE.

"THE EYE THAT REFLECTS THEIR FEELINGS........."

(And don't try to tell me to utilize the VIZ TRANSLATION BECAUSE IT WON'T DO YOU NO BETTER. BECAUSE IT'S ESSENTIALLY SAYS THE SAME THING ONLY "HEART" instead of "FEELING")


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 23, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> The Uchiha aren't entitled to anything. We have seen that the election of the hokage come down to a combination of being selected by the previous hokage/ approval from the Land of Fire/ Village through popular support. If an Uchiha fit the bill, they would have been elected. Tobirama is only one person, and not everyone shared his hate toward the Uchiha.



First of all was the lack of representation in Konoha's government was The Uchiha's only issue....As I said before you might what take your time actually READ WHAT YOU ARE POSTING TOO.(Don't WAIST ME TIME PLEASE!)

The quote on quote "Madara sympathizers" only first emerged after . However they weren't at the point of rebellion. As alluded to by Obito, . . The .

You might want to watch the video again because in TAKE INTO ACCOUNT EVERYTHING FUGAKU'S STATES, AS HE IS THE FIRST, LAST, AND ONLY ONE SPEAKING FROM THE CLANS PERSPECTIVE


To summarize Fugaku's words again: "Many in the clan resent the village"

YOU DON'T GET TO THAT POINT BY JUST A LACK OF HAVING A MEMBER OF YOUR CLAN BE ELECTED "HOKAGE"

And I think you are mistaken it was HATRED FROM THE OTHER VILLAGERS THAT THE UCHIHA WERE FED UP WITH. YOU NEED TO FU##### READ THE MANGA OR BETTER YET WATCHED THE VIDEO WHICH COMES FROM THE NOVEL.
(As your response sounds like you didn't take into account anything)



> Don't make stuff up dude. The Madara sympathizers died down, as  during Hiruzen and Minato's time, the Uchiha were proud of being in charge of the village's security.


Where did I mention anything about Madara sympathizers? You need to watch the video. To see what Fugaku has to say about Uchiha Madara.(Here's a hint: Imagine being German and being being "punished/treated" by your ruling government generations later for the actions of Adolf Hitler........YEAH THAT'S AN ACCURATE ASSESSMENT OF THE UCHIHA'S PREDICAMENT FROM FUGAKU'S PERSPECTIVE)

And don't make statements you can't back....You are aware that the Uchiha were well aware of the true intention in regarding their position as "" And the panel clearly implicates the Madara sympathizers didn't die down."They thought to state a rebellion that, as I had. But then it was too late."(SO WHO'S MAKING UP ANYTHING?)

And I don't know how you believe the Uchiha of Fugaku's generation were that naive, as NOT ONLY WERE THE FORCED TO LIVE TOGETHER, SO INFORMATION DOESN'T JUST GO AWAY......And frankly Oro left the village sometime after the fourth Hokage was chosen. Thus he didn't necessarily KNOW the situation would be be even worsened after the Kurama attack on the village...... So who's making stuff up? Who's been making stuff up so far?(Let's be real)

And if you technically take into account  Oro's role you'll NOTE THAT IT HEAVILY BACKS WHAT OBITO WAS ARBITRATING.
If the seat of HOKAGE IS GAINED PARTIALLY THROUGH POPULAR SUPPORT. Then their role as police, which in Oro's words "Those who keep the peace are often viewed with vitriol," isn't kinda design to work against THAT ASPECT ON HOW THE HOKAGE IS SELECTED. Which is why Oro's statements alludes to what Obito already told us earlier.(So who's making stuff up)




> The Uchiha became the "Senju lackeys" as Tobi said. Which is why a coup didn't happen prior to nine tails attack. During the nine tails attack, we literally see a sharingan in Kyuubi's eyes. Everyone fighting Kurama knew what was up, prior to Minato using the contract seal on Obito. The elders had every right to suspect the Uchiha.


And your boy Itachi, himself, could have helped his clan in that regards. As he....


Yeah... Buddy...


As Fugaku stated himself in that video, "Since then no one has done something like that. We DON'T EVEN KNOW IF ANYONE CAN"(WHICH IMPLIES THAT THE NO UCHIHA WAS PRESENT TO EVEN WITNESS KURAMA IN THE VILLAGE. AND THAT PAINTS A VERY, VERY VIVID PICTURE OF JUST HOW  FROM THE VILLAGE THE UCHIHA WERE PRE NINE TAILS ATTACK.......YOU MAY WANT TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE WORD "OUTSKIRTS OF THE VILLAGE" OR JUST SIMPLY APPLY A LITTLE COMMON SENSE. Where are PRISONS IN REAL LIFE usually located? HERE'S A HINT, IT AIN'T IN RESIDENTIAL DISTRICTS)

And here's some evidence from the actual manga to back that.

Kurama summoned not to far from the the village.




Kurama as Large as it was wasn't very far from the HEART OF THE VILLAGE.


And the what was Itachi doing prior to the later seen?


(Mom and Dad were out....But Itachi and Sasuke were home.....AND THERE'S NO EVIDENCE FROM MINATO'S ENTIRE REENACTMENT OF THE EVENT TO SHOWCASE A UCHIHA WAS EVEN LOCATED OUTSIDE OF THERE QUARTERS TO SPOT KURAMA)

And you must think I dumb..."we literally see a sharingan in Kyuubi's eyes"

(WHERE)


WHERE ARE THEM SHARINGANS?

(YOU DON'T KNOW THE MANGA BETTER THAN ME. AND YOU PROBABLY NEVER WILL. BUT DIDN'T YOU TELL ME TO DO MY RESEARCH BEFORE RESPONDING? YEAH BECAUSE YOU DO THAT?)



> What you fail to understand is, Konoha was justified in surveillance. The way they went about it was wrong, sure. But just like in real life, when a threat to national security is revealed it must be investigated by the government.  The mistake Konoha made was making the surveillance wide scale and having Konoha Black OPs humiliate the uchiha by doing open and wide spread surveillance after the relocation, and relocation itself was flawed in execution, but still justified. Konoha shouldn't have alienated the entire clan in that way, and instead should have relied on people like Itachi and Shisui to do standard, non invasive, FBI detective work to try to gather information on the Uchiha behind the attack.


Correct me if I ain't right, but didn't utilize this argument in another thread?


I'm not saying the Uchiha were slaves, but they were CLEARLY OPPRESSED, THEY CLEARLY WERE TREATED UNFAIRLY, , AND AS BOTH  AND FUGAKU ACKNOWLEDGED:FEARED FOR THE ACTIONS OF ONE. AND IF YOU THINK WAS JUST STOPPED WITH TOBIRAMA? . Things only got worse when Sarutobi became Hokage and Danzo given the amount of power he was given.. What happened to the Uchiha POST KURAMA INCIDENT? You forget what made Itachi . LET PEOPLE LIKE ITACHI AND SHISUI BE THE STANDARD HE, SAYS?  What were Itachi and Shisui exactly? They were still living among the Uchiha. They HAD A MORE IMPORTANT ROLE IN TERMS OF KONOHA'S MILITARY STRENGTH? BUT THEY WERE ANBU'S, AND WHICH ARE ESSENTIALLY EVEN MORE SPECIALIZED SHINOBI. And not only do we know who the leader of ANBU IS, WE KNOW FROM SHISUI THAT IT AIN'T MUCH BETTER .? Senju Play things? And they were. THE WERE ESSENTIALLY KILLED OFF, MINUS ONE, WITH NO REGARDS. So their role in the village was never that essential to begin with. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE UCHIHA KNOW THEIR HISTORY. THEY KNOW WHERE THEY CAME FROM. You can't say "THEY AREN'T ENTITLED TO ANYTHING" AND BE SEEN WITH ANY SENSE OF CREDIBILITY.(Because many African Americans still STRONGLY BELIEVE IN REPARATION. AND EQUAL RIGHTS ISN'T EVEN A MAJOR ISSUE, ON PAPER AT-LEAST)

(Do I need to go on or are you getting the PICTURE?)

And here's a fun fact, the only reason why you are EVEN THOUGHT THAT BS WAS ADEQUATE TO EVEN CHURN OUT THAT, IS BECAUSE WE ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY SEE THE VILLAGE THROUGH THE EYES OF SASUKE. AND THAT WAS ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY POST MASSACRE. ? You do aware that very character you were supporting was essentially AN EVEN BIGGER TOOL FOR KONOHA THAN ALMOST ANY UCHIHA IN THE MANGA, RIGHT? .

Didn't I mention slightly earlier that we almost exclusively see the village through the eyes of Sasuke, and this WAS SASUKE'S MIND SET FOLLOWING THE BATTLE WITH DANZO...


(IT WASN'T THAT WHAT HE SAYING DIDN'T HAVE ANY MERIT, AS WE KNOW THE HISTORY. HE WAS JUST ESSENTIALLY ARBITRATING WHAT WE COULDN'T GET FROM THE CLAN THEMSELVES. SO ALL THAT KONOHA WAS JUSTIFIED SHENANIGANS...

WHAT DID SASUKE TELL NARUTO JUST A PAGE EARLIER?



(Oh YEAH...SHUT UP "YOU OUT, YOU OUTSIDER!)


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 23, 2019)

> *The Uchiha however failed to try and make the effort to gain the trust of the village* and help in the investigation, and instead of peacefully trying to resolve the conflict, the Uchiha began acts of* treason b*y having Itachi join the Anbu Black OPS purely so Fugaku could gather intelligence for his coup. They refused to be the bigger "man" in the conflict. That is where the Uchiha fucked up. Both sides messed up, I simply asked you not to sugarcoat the Uchiha side.  By the time of Shisui's death, Itachi had been a double agent for  (click the 6 months for link, it should link to the scan). Shisui was supposed to end the coup that was being plotted, but it failed, and he suicided. Itachi still bought Hiruzen time immedateily after that , as per Hiruzen's request, and at least 2 days after Shisui died, Hiruzen reached out to the clan and they refused to listen or change their ways, and instead continued to put pressure on Itachi and refused to call off the coup. We know a lot of time passed after Shisui's death as well, " a long time plus a week plus some change in fact":



The biggest mistake the Uchiha's ever made is that they too much of the VERY OPPOSITE OF THE BOLD? THE UCHIA'S DIDN'T JUST DECIDE ON A COUP OVERNIGHT, MY FRIEND. IT TOOK GENERATIONS.(NOTE: Sasuke's words earlier) YOU CAN'T GAIN SOMETHING YOU NEVER HAD TO ESSENTIALLY BEGIN WITH. AND THE UCHIHA'S PROBLEM DIDN'T BEGIN EVEN WHEN ITACHI WAS STILL IN FUGAKU'S BALL SACK. SO STFU, AND ACTUALLY DO YOU YOUR HOMEWORK.

Also the Uchiha clan had NO LEVERAGE OUTSIDE OF THREAT OF A COUP. WE WERE TOLD THAT THE ONLY ONE WHO EVEN BROUGHT UP THE IDEA OF "" WAS HIRUZEN, AND AS I SAID BEFORE...... So once again you need to DO YOU HOMEWORK, UTILIZE OTHER RESOURCES IF YOU HAVE TO. BECAUSE YOU ARE CLEARLY NOT RELYING ON EVERYTHING THE MANGA IS GIVEN AS I SAID WATCH THE VIDEO.


(Note: I'm not posting this video to necessarily justify the Uchiha's COUP. As I REALLY DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK IN REGARDS TO THAT AT THIS POINT. I'm posting to the video to showcase THE UCHIHA PERSPECTIVE; FROM THE LEADER OF THE CLANS, PERSPECTIVE. AND IT VERY MUCH DISPROVES YOUR BS, "The Uchiha however failed to try and make the effort to gain the trust of the village"






> That's why Danzo  eventually stepped in and told Itachi to just bring the curtain down on his clan. A peaceful solution could not be met because the Uchiha refused. Itachi then sought out Tobi for help in the massacre, and we know that Hiruzen approved of Danzo's actions as well, as Edo Hiruzen outright told Sasuke he had Itachi kill his clansmen.  So stop acting like they are innocent. They got struck first, plain and simple. Even if Fugaku was willing to fight bloodlessly, The elders have the right to kill him so he can't commit treason again and for their own safety,  and that goes for all the other uchiha who also wanted blood as well, and would be free to act after hearing of Fugaku's death. Massacring the whole clan including any children also ensured that in the future, there were no uchiha who could learn the truth and use it as motivation to attack the village to avenge their rebellious  clan members. Itachi's "mistake", Sasuke, learned the truth, and look what happened.


(ARE YOU ESSENTIALLY TRYING TO JUSTIFY GENOCIDE? YEAH I DON'T THINK THAT'S AN ACCEPTABLE "PRACTICE" IN ANY CULTURE. RELIGION. COUNTRY. ETC.ETC. HOW DO YOU EVEN UTTER THOSE WORDS WHEN YOU KNOW DAMN WELL THAT. AND YOU WOUNDER WHY ITACHI FANS DON'T FAR WELL WHEN IT COMES TO THIS DISCUSSION)

DON'T OUTRIGHT EMBARRASS YOURSELF FOR THE SAKE OF TRYING TO COMPETE IN AN ARGUMENT. BECAUSE NO WHERE IN THE MANGA WAS IT IMPLIED THAT KONOHA DECISION WAS CORRECT. OTHERWISE ITACHI, HIMSELF WOULDN'T HAVE


(IF ITACHI WAS ACTING UNDER KONOHA'S ORDERS, AND THE UCHIHA WERE THE GUILTY ONE'S? WHY OH WHY IS HE CALLING HIS ACTIONS A CRIME? AND I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING. KISHI'S PEN IS THE ONE THAT'S DOING THE TALKING. BUT DO ME A FAVOR...KEEP THAT SAME THE UCHIHA'S WERE "GUILTY" MENTALITY....WE GONE SEE WHO'S WHO, AND WHAT'S WHAT'S AT THE END OF THIS POST. AND BY THE WAY YOUR RESPONSE IS ALREADY LOOKING QUESTIONABLE FROM WHAT I ALREADY PRESENTED EARLIER)


First off you do know that the Uchiha were not the ONE'S IN A POSITION OF POWER TO EVEN DERIVE A "SOLUTION"(THE ONLY LEVERAGE THEY HAD WAS A COUP, ONCE AGAIN)

And YOU KNOW YOU'RE DEAD WRONG WHEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO SIMPLY GO BACK TO THINGS WERE PRIOR TO COUP WAS TAKEN OFF THE TABLE.


Oh and before you go posting this

I GOT YOU....

Itachi's WORDS TO SASUKE ONLY REINFORCES WHAT WE ALL READY WERE GIVEN BY THE . Fugaku clearly states, "EVEN THOUGH OUR WAY OF THINKING DIFFERS, I AM PROUD OF YOU"

And the only thing IMPLIED THEY AGREED UPON IS "TAKING CARE OF SASUKE"

This is even more apparent if you watch this video.


(And you say Fugaku didn't know about Itachi's INTENTIONS? WHAT'S THE FIRST THING HE SAYS TO HIM USING A CLONE AFTER ITACHI GIVES HIS RESPONSE TO WHAT FUGAKU SHOWCASED HIM THAT OTHER VIDEO?(FUN FACT: ITACHI DIDN'T SHOW HIM ANYTHING) BUT FUGAKU DIDN'T NECESSARILY NEED TO KNOW ANYTHING MORE THAN WHAT ITACHI WAS ALREADY DOING.)


The statement doesn't imply the situation for the uchiha would change. It only defines what Itachi was referring to in the first place with his brief breakdown.


"You forget what is most important to you"(The children/Sasuke....As it's essentially the "will of fire" belief)

"As far as the rest of Itachi response in regards to "TRUE CHANGE" YEAH BY THE PROCESS OF ELIMINATION OF ALL THOSE THINGS HE MENTIONS, THAT ESSENTIALLY JUST LIMITS SET "CHANGE" TO *HIS IDEALS*"

But fun fact earlier you mentions something along the line of, "*The Uchiha however failed to try and make the effort to gain the trust of the village" *You also said, "*The Uchiha began acts of treason."*

But correct me if I ain't right didn't Itachi himself cite....Something along the line of ""

But I've already listed the ALL THE CONDITIONS THE UCHIHA'S WERE IN OR FACED WITH EARLIER?(THE VIDEO REGARDING FUGAKU'S WORDS MAKES THIS HD CLEAR AS WELL)

Here's a reminder if you forgot.....BECAUSE I KNOW YOU DID.....


*Spoiler*: __ 




I'm not saying the Uchiha were slaves, but they were CLEARLY OPPRESSED, THEY CLEARLY WERE TREATED UNFAIRLY, , AND AS BOTH  AND FUGAKU ACKNOWLEDGED:FEARED FOR THE ACTIONS OF ONE. AND IF YOU THINK WAS JUST STOPPED WITH TOBIRAMA? . Things only got worse when Sarutobi became Hokage and Danzo given the amount of power he was given.. What happened to the Uchiha POST KURAMA INCIDENT? You forget what made Itachi . LET PEOPLE LIKE ITACHI AND SHISUI BE THE STANDARD HE, SAYS?  What were Itachi and Shisui exactly? They were still living among the Uchiha. They HAD A MORE IMPORTANT ROLE IN TERMS OF KONOHA'S MILITARY STRENGTH? BUT THEY WERE ANBU'S, AND WHICH ARE ESSENTIALLY EVEN MORE SPECIALIZED SHINOBI. And not only do we know who the leader of ANBU IS, WE KNOW FROM SHISUI THAT IT AIN'T MUCH BETTER .? Senju Play things? And they were. THE WERE ESSENTIALLY KILLED OFF, MINUS ONE, WITH NO REGARDS. So their role in the village was never that essential to begin with. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE UCHIHA KNOW THEIR HISTORY. THEY KNOW WHERE THEY CAME FROM. You can't say "THEY AREN'T ENTITLED TO ANYTHING" AND BE SEEN WITH ANY SENSE OF CREDIBILITY.(Because many African Americans still STRONGLY BELIEVE IN REPARATION. AND EQUAL RIGHTS ISN'T EVEN A MAJOR ISSUE, ON PAPER AT-LEAST)





And correct me if I ain't right what is the PRIMARY JOB OF THE ANBU? BETTER YET WAS DOES ANBU EVEN STAND FOR Mr. Third?

Considering you can't simply LEAVE THE VILLAGE Isn't an option: Sasuke did that and KONOHA SENT AN ANBU IN THE FORM of.....



*Spoiler*: __ 






 \]





What you forget is that IN  THE ORIGINAL MANGA THE "GOVERNING" OF NARUTO WAS DIVIDED TO ESSENTIALLY TWO SIDES.


.

And we know what he was all about when it came to to the UCHIHAS


As was stating before(Defection from the village isn't even an option) SO WHAT'S THE ONLY LOGICAL THING TO FEAR? AFTER YOU ALREADY BEING WHAT I ARBITRATED (TWICE) BEFORE? What's the only that's yet to SEE? What's yet to KNOW? Here's a hint....



So you also said, "*The Uchiha began acts of treason." But correct me if I ain't right doesn't treason mean?
*

Yeah who was clearly showing SIGNS OF BETRAYAL FIRST? SECOND? OR THIRD? You started of saying, "The Uchiha aren't entitled to anything."(But you only stuck to talking about the HOKAGE SEAT? But correct me if I ain't right? KNOWING WHAT YOU NOW KNOW THE UCHIHA WERE EXPERIENCING?(If you were reading) DO YOU REALLY, REALLY, MEAN WHAT YOU STATED? I don't quite grasp the LARGE PICTURE, AS EXPERIENCE IS THE BEST "TEACHER"
(The UCHIHA ALREADY LOYAL ABIDING CITIZENS FOR "A WHILE" THEY WERE THE CO-FOUNDERS OF THE VERY VILLAGE THEY COMMITTED TREASON AGAINST) What's the original Senju/Hashi philosophy the "will of fire" , right? Funny thing is I do think the Uchiha believed in those words at some point too. They did side with HASHI OVER THEIR VERY OWN MADARA. So they already showed they were will to concede power IF IT MEANT PEACE BEFORE. So why oh why if they had a guaranteed chance "at least" JUST THAT, WOULD THEY BE WILLING TO WAGE RISK WAR TO BEGIN WITH? WHICH WOULD CAUSE BLOOD SHED; NOT ONLY ON BOTH SIDES.(BUT CONSIDERING THEY ARE ONE CLAN GOING AGAINST COUNTRY THEY WOULD KINDA, BY SHEER LAW OF AVERAGES, BE OBVIOUSLY TAKING MORE LOSES THAT KONOHA) What's yet to fear in the end, considering they were already in the worst possible living conditions they could be in, the only logical conclusion IS GENOCIDE ITSELF.(.) You forgot that even HASHI OUTRIGHT ADMITTED THAT MADARA WAS RIGHT!

*Spoiler*: __ 









And let's not pretend THE UCHIHA WEREN'T READING THE SAME
"UCHIHA GUIDE" that Madara was utilizing. And that Guide had many things on it including......."" .....And yes you need probably need the Rinnegan to decipher it all, and probably that part specifically. Madara did have access to the EMS and was able to confirmed to be able to decipher...

Considering Madara had a few followers from the after TOBIRAMA'S ACTION FROM THE GET GO. CONSIDERING WHAT WE KNOW THE UCHIHA'S LIVING CONDITIONS, AND FROM ITACHI'S VERY WORDS, ""  I think safe to assume ALL GENERATIONS OF UCHIHA UP UNTIL ITACHI'S; KNEW AT LEAST THAT ASPECT OF THE TABLET. SO WHEN YOU ARBITRATE, "The Uchiha aren't entitled to anything." I think they have a tablet to REMIND THEM THAT THEY ARE ENTITLED TO AT LEAST HAVE "TRUE HAPPINESS" AND THE UCHIHA CLEARLY WEREN'T HAPPY.(Wasn't even give a fair chance at that after TOBIRAMA TOOK OVER) I don't quite grasp the concept that the very village that they were betraying they CO-FOUNDED? "AND IF THE TWO SIDES ARE WORKING TO TOGETHER," WHICH IMPLIES THE SENJU, AND THE SENJU ALONE. Why oh why do you think the Uchiha in their final days did not go to sleep at night thinking "SOMETHING AIN'T RIGHT ABOUT THEIR SITUATION?" AND IF THEY KNEW THEY WERE FEARED, FOR WHAT THEY WERE ESSENTIALLY BORN WITH. AND ALSO WHAT THE VILLAGE FEARED MOST ABOUT THEM; HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. THEY MAY HAVE ALSO COME TO REALIZE THAT AS LONG AS THE UCHIHA THEMSELVES EXIST AND THE VILLAGES "BEST ASSET MILITARY ASSET IN THE FORM OF "KYUUBI JINCHUURIKI" EXIST. WHAT MAKES YOU THINK KONOHA WOULD EVER LEARN TO TRUST THE UCHIHA IN THE "NEAR FUTURE"(Speaking in regards to just Fugaku's Reign?)

(I DON'T QUITE THINK YOU HAVE A CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF THE SITUATION, AS KONOHA AT ANY POINT NEVER SHOWCASED ANY SIGNS OF EVER "EVEN HAVING A REASON" TO CHANGE THEIR WAYS.)


----------



## Soul (Jul 24, 2019)

That's quite the post you have there.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 24, 2019)

> And don't make stuff up.  Fugaku was given an invitation to Sasuke's graduation by Hiruzen, so he had plenty of ways to communicate with the Government, he just refused. He wanted secret intel on the elders so he could best plan a method for his coup.


I haven't made anything up my friend. WE ALREADY SCENE THAT HIRUZEN POWER ISN'T ABSOLUTE. And what part don't understand in regards.

And now you are essentially MAKING STUFF UP....As if it was essentially that easy for Fugaku to gain access the "higher ups"

He wouldn't have essentially alluding......

*Spoiler*: __ 










That Itachi was the "one link between the one link between the Uchiha in the heart of the village....

And I like how you try to make assumption in regards to WHAT FUGAKU COULD HAVE DONE WHEN THE ONLY THING WE'VE BEEN GIVEN IS WHAT KONOHA COULD HAVE DONE...

*Spoiler*: __ 












(Correct me if I ain't right....BUT SOMEONE'S LYING...HERE BASED ENTIRELY OF THE PREVIOUS SCAN)

And keep in mind Itachi stop playing "" FOR THE UCHIHA LONG BEFORE THE FINAL DECISION TO CARY OUT THE UCHIHA MASSACRE .

(But we already knew that....Because I already establish fact a long time ago....WHY OH WHY...Did you think  angle was going to work?)



> It took Itachi killing the whole clan for Fugaku to finally understand Itachi, and even then, he  still said their philosophies disagreed. On his deathbed, he stood true to the coup, but refused to stand against his son, who clearly wasn't gonna help him in his desire to overthrow Konoha. So he died with his wife. I already told you that Fugaku could NOT read ITachi by his own admssion, and you retorted with some BS example. If I can predict a narutoforum debator's stance on something, it means I CAN READ THEM.


Already addressed this earlier....(IN SONG)

But here's a hint where you should probably start LOOKING.





> The whole point of Konoha shouldering the blame on Itachi wasn't just to keep their hands clean, it was also to preserve the Uchiha name by having Itachi charged with patricide. If the truth broke out, the Uchiha would be considered just as guilty as Konoha in the conflict, if not worse, because at least Hiruzen was trying to open peace talks, which the Uchiha refused.


If the truth BROKE OUT, THEN YOU'LL PROBABLY HAVE TO START FROM THE BEGINNING WHICH, ALREADY VALIDATES WHAT SASUKE SUMMARIZED)

*Spoiler*: __ 











(And what's the saying...."Dead man tell no tells" WHAT WOULD THE UCHIHA, WHO IS ESSENTIALLY ALL DEAD, BE HARMED BY THE TRUTH EVER GETTING OUT?)

And Hiruzen would LOOK JUST AS INCOMPETENT AS HE ADMITTED HIMSELF TO BE...


*Spoiler*: __ 








(And yeah this part of my response is probably going to be mostly all panel, as I'VE ALREADY ADDRESSED MOST OF THIS MESS, ALREADY)

And if people REALLY, REALLY, WANTED TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHAT WAS THE CAUSE OF THE UCHIHA MASSACRE, THEIR PROBABLY GOING TO DO THEIR HOMEWORK ON HOW THE VILLAGE HIERARCHY IS RUN.
And once again Hiruzen isn't ALL POWERFUL....


(And where in the manga did it state that the Uchiha refused an OPEN PEACE TALK? Now I know you aren't even trying)

*Spoiler*: __ 










(YEP HE SURELY TELLING THE READERS THAT WHAT HE MEANS WITH, "I'LL THINK OF A PLAN")

Was essentially this...

*Spoiler*: __ 









(So that was that, "I think of a PLAN"....Question Mr. Third....Does that he reiterate "Peace Talk with the Uchiha" here?)

But I don't want to pick on poor Hiruzen because HE CLEARLY ARBITRATED "WE"

And we already KNOW FROM EARLIER THAT DANZO HAD THE BEST INTEREST FOR THE VILLAGE AND THE UCHIHA CLAN ON HIS MIND.....

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 24, 2019)

> Finally, an unbiased point from you for once. Still doesn't matter. You can't assume that a surprise attack at night time from the inside  is the equivalent of a full scale battle during the day, like the ones the Uchiha and Senju engaged in the past. The Uchiha were stated to be the strongest clan in the world alongside the Senju, so it's not at all surprising that Uchiha can compete. Itachi and Obito winning against the clan in the conditions they did isn't as impressive as you are claiming to to be, and at best, would be a feat for Itachi and Obito, not an antifeat for the Uchiha clan.  Itachi is anbu black ops, which you forget specializes in stealth and assassination. So he didn't necessarily fight every one of the Uchiha fairly, as far was what the manga had shown us.


So the person that CLEARLY ARBITRATED GENOCIDE WAS JUSTIFIABLE?(Yeah you KINDA LOST ANY RIGHT TO CALL SOMEONE BIAS.....BUT CORRECT ME IF I AIN'T RIGHT OUR WE TELLING TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN? You CLEARLY PRO KONOHA. ME OBVIOUSLY PRO UCHIHA....IT'S JUST A MATTER OF WHO'S DOING THE BEST JOB TO JUSTIFY SET GROUPS ACTIONS

Didn't necessarily fight every one of the Uchiha fairly?(Yeah because the Uchiha were ever shown to fighting back at any point?)

Yeah you may want to stick to WHAT EVERY SHOWCASING OF THAT NIGHT DICTATES....(This video pretty much sums up what almost every panel of that night showcases....MINUS THE SASUKE TORTURE/MIND FUCK? But do we really need that add that at this point?






It's called a MASSACRE NOT A BATTLE FOR A REASON BUDDY....




> *This contains multiple lies, because you asked me to cite scans for two things that you should have known. So you don't know the manga better.* You claim Itachi isn't invincible with Yata and Totsuka, so you don't know the manga better. You aren't smarter than me either, as you don't know what reflexes are, and also listed a bunch of headcanon about Pain as well regarding his fights. Concession accepted. And keep lying about selective posts, kid. I addressed to you my reasoning and you keep ignoring it, so concession accepted. I don't care about your excuses. Just don't talk shit when I have had to explain things to you that you didn't know. Ignorance is fine, but saying you know everything about the manga better than I when you have shown ignorance is a lie.


(Yeah I wan't to see if you be able to justify that at SOME POINT IN THIS LONG, LONG, LONG, DISCUSSION)
YEAH I'VE BELIEVE ADDRESSED, JUSTIFIED, INVALIDATED, PROVE YOU TO BE THE LOW DOWN DIRTY LIAR THAT YOU ACCUSE ME TO BE, EMBARRASS(NO YOU DID MOST OF THAT YOURSELF)...But please, please maintain this same CONFIDENCE YOU ARE SHOWCASING AGAINST ME HERE IN ALL YOUR FUTURE ARGUMENTS. AS YOU WERE NOT RELYING ON THIS MUST "FANFICTION" WHEN I'VE SEEN YOUR OTHER ARGUMENTS IN OTHER THREADS.



> Not necessarily. This is the third time in which you have failed to consider that there are multiple defnitions for these things, and each has subtle differences.
> 
> can spy without necessarily reporting information
> 
> ...


And this the first time you adequately been able to apply to Itachi with "NO CONTRADICTIONS"

So what essentially what the village ask him to do was MEANINGLESS? And only assisted in further set organization goal to NEGATE ALL OF ITACHI'S PREVIOUS ACTIONS HE DID FOR SET LEAF?(Oh Itachi you so SMART....NO "YOU'RE PERFECT")




> He furthered Akatuski's goals because that's what he is required to do in exchange for Konoha's protection.... and he desired to be known as a traitor. Already explained in the canon by Tobi himself....


And here I thought the exchange for Konoha's protection was getting "allowing him to get revenge on the clan" 

I wounder which one the manga supports. 


*Spoiler*: __ 









(Sounds like someone is LYING AGAIN...And remind me didn't you state you know the manga better than me?)



> Itachi began searching for Totsuka right after leaving the village. We are literally told that Akatsuki are in search of new jutsu and techniques, and Black Zetsu already stated that the Totsuka Blade was being searched for which you keep ignoring while you cling to your fanfic about it being a Susano'o jutsu.


Whoa, Whoa.......Fanfic?


So let's break this down....Where and When was it established that Itachi began searching for Totsuka right after leaving the village?(Did I miss that panel)

And minor correction Black Zetsu cites...

*Spoiler*: __ 









Black Zetsu only statement is only response to ORO'S ACTIONS....THIS IS CLEARLY EMPHASIZED IN THE "HE COULD NEVER FIND IT"

Oh, but IpHr0z3nI, this isn't the VIZ TRANSLATION...(You're right?)

*Spoiler*: __ 










"Itachi you had it"(Oro)         "No wounder no one's been able to locate it"(Zetsu)

Same context, less complex....More ambiguous....But DOESN'T NECESSARILY IMPLY THAT ITACHI HAD TO SEARCH FOR IT. IN FACT DEPENDING ON WHAT DEFINITION OF(SPIRITUAL) IT HAS NO PHYSICAL FORM.(But the devil is in the details because if the blade in spiritual in the since of

"This Sword is......"      "Itachi you had it"(Doesn't imply he EVER HAD TO LOOK FOR AT ANY POINT)  "No wounder no one's been able to locate it....."(Not directly referring to Oro this time......BUT IF LOOKED AT IN CONTEXT THE STATEMENT IS ONLY INTENDED TO JUSTIFY WHAT BOTH TRANSLATION ESSENTIALLY GOT CORRECT) "It's a SPIRIT BLADE THAT HAS NO PHYSICAL FORM" While this could utilize to imply that intangible()  which would imply the the definition two form of (having material existence) That wouldn't make since considering it does interact with physical objects.....(So it can't be intangible as OBITO'S KAMUI SHOWCASES EXACTLY WHAT INTANGIBLE MEANS)

Thus we are forced to resort to the . Which doesn't utilize still utilize spiritual but also defines what type of spiritual where talking about which is (Sacred) which if we look back is very much a synonym for spiritual and if we actually define -connecting to a god(long story short) Which is a coincident as Susano'o itself is already associated with a god. Which would would clarify what not having a physical form means...in this case we have to take into account both "physical" and "form" individually. And not just one this time.... It's best if we define the later first "" note It has two definition but only one fits the situation. The first: external appearance of a clearly defined area, as distinguished from color or material;configuration: But
Totsuka definitely has an external appearance....So the only  one that works is....The second: the shape of a thing or person.(Which works Perfectly) As the blade itself, which the VIZ TRANSLATION HIGHLIGHTS, ISN'T PHYSICAL AT ALL. . Which if we look at the blades have a set shape it's always a sword, but not necessary set in it's shape.  . So there's nothing to indicate that Itachi found it. But there's evidence enough to showcase that existed at some point....Which doesn't debunk my thesis of a susano'o possessing Totsuka before. Since there's no other mention in regards to the other peoples Susano'o's and their weapons. And we clearly see that THEY NEVER HAD TO LOOK FOR THERE WEAPONS... My thesis holds..
Why yours is still stuck in Fanfiction teritory.



> And mind you, your nonsense about the thought bubble doesn't add up. Because in most of the  occurences in that fight, Kishimoto, where possible, specifies which Zetsu is talking through the placement of the thought bubble. We see Zetsu only commenting on the blade after Orochimaru is being sealed and when Orochimaru mentions the blade first.


How does this debunk what I stated when everything I'm citing is supported. As I make sure to include multiple situations in which I thought was relevant to showcase which Zetsu is talking. In each instance. Please if your going to try to debunk something. Actually put some effort into it. I have no idea without panel what scenes question the panels I posted. And their all irrelevant because it's as clear as day who's doing the talking in regards to ALL STATEMENTS REGARDING TOTSUKA.




> And he only commented on Yata after it was continously shapeshifting and blocking attacks. and LOL at me not convincing other people of my arguments. I got tons of reputation points and swung hearts and minds with my post on Yata and Totsuka. Just because a few dolts disagree means nothing, and the number of people who agree with me is inconsequential to the truth.
> 
> :


But Totsuka has never been define as a jutsu...Susano'o has though. And we don't quite know what the he means by, "among other things..".As that could easily be capturing the Jinchuriki/Biju....WHICH FITS JUST FINE IN REGARDS TO WHAT THE AKATSUKI ENDED UP ACTUALLY DOING.

And I don't what to hear about what you DID. I want to see what you actual can DO NOW. And your response to the totsuka arguments is ENTIRELY FANFICTION AND NOT SUPPORTED BY PANEL. My approach takes a more detail analysis. And incorporates MULTIPLE ASPECTS OF THE MANGA/DATA BOOK....And a little be of common sense and PUZZLE PIECING.
I don't necessraly care if my opinion is shared by others. Because the only folks that care whether it came from Susano'o or Itachi found it are mostly his FANS. It really doesn't make  A DIFFERENCE AS A WHOLE. AS TOTSUKA  IS ALREADY DEFINE IN SHOWCASING WHAT IT IS.





> Doesn't disprove what I said at all. Itachi didn't threaten to kill Danzo/elders or Konoha. He threatened to release information, so its pacifist whether you like it or not. It also could have been a bluff, and its a bluff that Danzo won't ignore, since he values privacy, not only for the Village but also himself.
> And I already told you Itachi's type of pacifism, not explaining it again, as you know what time it is. He is willing to do violence if necessary, in the defense of others. He is defending Sasuke's life by making a threat to Danzo.


Yes it actually does....But you wouldn't know as you've not be very CREDIBLE OR ACCURATE IN RECOLLECTION OF MANY THINGS.

He "Threat a village with War"(The only logical thing he wan't to accomplish" if his  "Tell everything there is to know about the village to every hostile nation in the world")

You are trying to incorporate your own HEAD CANON as there is nothing to support he was ever bluffing....As Danzo clearly took the threat seriously, at least while he was alive and in the village.




> No, just keep the manga facts straight. Itachi was in Konoha that day because he was sent to capture Naruto. Tobi didn't need to explain that reason, as the OTHER reason he was there was because Nagato's orders made it the perfect opportunity to check on Sasuke, which I never denied, but that was all Tobi needed to explain to Sasuke to keep things simple for his purposes of explaining Itachi's true motivations.. It's pretty funny that you can't allow both ideas to coexist in your statements and have this prideful need to only focus on Sasuke.  A character can't have TWO REASONS for doing something? This is a pointless disagreement at this point.


Once again it's quite clear who's doing what.... You just previously tried to implement your own head conon in regards to your "Itachi may have bluffing" and  your  FANFICTION STORY ABOUT WHEN Itachi started searching for Totsuka.

And I'm MY ISSUE HERE IS NOT SIMPLY TO KEEP FACTS STRAIT, IS TO GET YOU TO ANSWER A SIMPLE QUESTION. And I've already posted that question on multiple occasions. And who is not sticking to just facts..."Tobi needing to explain to Sasuke to keep things simple......"(And I'M DEFINTILY TRYING TO GET YOU TO DO JUST THAT WITH MY QUESTION.


"WAS ITACHI THERE TO CAPTURE NARUTO OR TO ENSURE SASUKE'S SAFETY? I DON'T WANT TO HERE ANY OTHER ANSWER BUT A DIRECT RESPONSE THIS QUESTION."
(We already establish Itachi's role as spy meant nothing for Konoha, and only ended up technically "weaponizing" Obito's plans(POSTMORTEM OF COURSE) 



[QUOTE[I'm too experienced for this. I have studied Itachi vs Nagato in depth, and it's funny how you bring up Itachi vs Kabuto, when not once he did bust out Totsuka and Yata in that fight, which is the only thing that matters in determining his power level, because that's him using his full power.[/QUOTE]
I remember my response to you in regards to that....And what I was replying too.....I don't recall you or I ever discussing Totsuka and Yata's presence in that fight....And you were trying to justify why Itachi got hit with Muki.....And I essentially pointed out that Kabuto was able to DAMAGE ITACHI WITHOUT IN(EXCUSES)

And you claim you are too experienced for this.....YOU AIN'T COMING BACK  FROM THIS... WITH ANY TYPE OF PROPER RESPONSE.
(But to be quite honest it's really no need for you continue as you've earned my respect regardless how OF THE JABS BACK IN FOURTH...)

You are willing to put up FIGHT AND NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT MY STYLE.....AND ALSO ATTEMPTED TO REPLICATE IT.....If I get an A for effort....Then you should at least get a B....Because I've never cheated you in regards to responses at any point....Where I can point out some places you clearly "Cut CORNERS" FOR ME..




> Don't be a tard. Nothing has ever contradicting Black Zetsu's statements about Itachi wielding Yata and Totsuka. In fact, the feats support it. Sasuke's statement is a blatant lie, as we the reader SAW what happened. By your asinine logic, the nine tails attack on Konoha  was a natural disaster because Tobi said so, when we SAW that he was the mofo that summoned it in the village rofl. Obito said that Itachi died in his battle against Sasuke, and from what we saw, Itachi killed himself. That isn't a win for Sasuke. A win would be if Sasuke ran chidori through Itachi's heart and then Itachi died.


I'm not being a tard at all.....I'm simply pointing your "Inconsistency" in which you are willing to take into account without any "contingencies" for Itachi.....And what issues in regards to that very same Itachi you are willing not to accept about his "Character"  with "contingencies"

The only one who's proven to be a tard is you my friend....As you have proven your WANK FOR ITACHI....FAR OUT SEEDS MY WANK FOR SASUKE...And the sad part is......I was only simply trying to test how you fair featuring different TOPICS/ASPECTS ABOUT ITACHI.....And you proven you are consistent in terms of KNOWLEDGE OR EFFORT OR ARGUABLY QUALITY WHEN IT COMES TO DISCUSSING HIM...

i THINK I CAN REALLY CALL GG ON THIS ONE BECAUSE THESE LAST TWO POST HAVE LITERALLY TAKEN ME AN ENTIRE DAY AND THEN SOME TO PRODUCE....(AS I ALWAYS SAY.....HATE ME OR LOVE ME.......YOU CAN NEVER SAY I CHEATED IN TERMS OF A RESPONSE)


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 24, 2019)

Soul said:


> That's quite the post you have there.


(Yeah I really, really strive to not to concept of "NOT SHORTCHANGING THE PERSON I'M RESPONDING TO"(LMAO)


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## JJ Baloney (Jul 24, 2019)

Ya, I'm just gonna agree with the OP and leave this thread alone...


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 24, 2019)

Hussain said:


> holy shit...



Yeah I'm not sure what this thread has turned into myself....I ORIGINALLY JUST WANTED DISCUSS SOMETHING ABOUT ITACHI NOT RELATING TO POWER...AND JUST SO HAPPENS HE WAS THE MOST WILLING TO DO JUST THAT...AND A FELLOW POSTER TAUGHT HOW TO CONSISTENTLY POST PANEL SO I REALLY, REALLY WANTED TO TEST JUST THAT. 

Besides I Talked allot of trash earlier in regards to which fandom among the brothers KNOWS ITACHI THE BEST......AND I'M REALLY, REALLY TRY TO PROVE WHAT I ALWAYS BELIEVED, SASUKE'S.


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## X III (Jul 24, 2019)

@IpHr0z3nI 
Wanted to rep you, but I got this message:

"Seriously? Do you really not have more than 6 friends on the forum? Give reputation to some other users first, to prove that you aren't a loser, and therefore worthy of our reputation system."

Sad times.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 25, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> This literally has nothing to do with what you're quoting. I merely SHOWCASED TO YOU THAT BLACK ZETSU WORDS ARE JUST THAT WORDS. HYPE. AND ARGUABLY HIS OPINION. As later on we'd see MADARA HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT OPINION OF AMATERASU.



Except Databook Three says the same thing Zetsu does. And a person who has seen all of  the heavy hitters/god tiers in action and also specializes in information gathering/espionage is a credible source, especially when Black Zetsu was at best a neutral character toward Itachi, given that it was revealed he knew to a certain extent that Itachi was working for Konoha:


His opinion is portrayed as a manga fact. Concession accepted. Kishimoto can speak through characters, you know.

Black Zetsu declared the invincibilty because the blade's speed is too fast and its OHKO, plus the YM can't be breached. It doesn't take a genius to comprehend that the simultaneous usage of such weapons would render someone of the caliber of Itachi invincible. He is already high kage without those weapons.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> And he countered with a very similar response to my own....



Yes, because two liars can't think alike? I showed you an explanation of reflexes, and you ignored it. Concession accepted.
Orochimaru has reacted to kunai and chakra arms without any issue, attacks that couldn't even kill him. Its instinct to react to enemy attacks. Even when Oro opts to tank attacks, we still see the evidence that he reacted.





Not ONCE has Orochimaru ever failed to mentally react to an attack. He also had dodged most attacks thrown at him physically. We have seen him blitz'd by other characters aside from Itachi physically, but he never registered   an "eh?" in response to an attack, which indicates his eyes were unable to see the speed of the blade.  Keep up the dishonesty.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> Reflexes has nothing to do with mobility? And how exactly does reflexes help, if you aren't able to move? I think one goes hand and hand with the other in ORO'S CASE. As has no other way to avoid Totsuka outside of movement. And I've already addressed the Oro situation with you earlier. As did others.




Don't play dumb. The context of mobility is foot speed, as you claimed that Oro and Nagato having mobility issues (Oro being stuck in his snake) and Nagato having bad legs, somehow renders their reflexes inoperable. Neither person could SEE the speed of the blade, as neither registered a mental reaction. Preta Path might require an arm to be moved, but Nagato doesn't have a mobility issue in his arms, in fact, his arms were fast enough to blitz Bee and put a laser to his head.  Oro couldn't even muster a natural guard like the one he did to Sasuke's chidori. He has ALWAYS reacted to attacks, but this time, there wasn't even a mental reaction, as he said "eh?" in response to the blade's speed.  And we have seen Nagato react to attacks with Shinra Tensei without lifting an arm, like the first Shinra Tensei he used on Kakashi in the Pain Arc. Him needing to lift an arm was something retconn'd after the fact. Nagato not being in control is irrelevant to reflexes. The Third Raikage still had reflexes even as a mind controlled Edo, and they were dam good reflexes.

And concession accepted. All you had to do was read the original posts of each thread. I'm not copying and pasting shit, I already linked them, and it's the same information. Nothing has changed.  I am not copying and pasting two large posts that you already have access to. Read them or don't, eitther way, your concession is accepted. But just as a bonus, I'll give you one scan here that debunks one of your other lies about Pain needing shared vision to react with Shinra Tensei to an attack coming out of smokescreens. He percieved the attack, and sees the projectile, and then Shinra Tensei's it after it crosses some distance. And this isn't the only example either.







IpHr0z3nI said:


> Good god. Nagato wasn't even in control, And the fundamental reason of why he even opted to utilize the six paths of pains in the first place, can be explained WITH THE CONDITION HIS EDO SELF WAS IN THE FIRST PLACE. I don't remember Nagato ever walking on his own. Yet doing an even complex maneuver such as dodging. And once again the ISSUES WITH Shinrai Tensei and Preta path, have already been addressed. And did you really just state he can blitz Kaguya? Yeah I never see you arbitrate any of this ridiculousness against others. And I've been reading almost all your responses in other threads. You were very, very subtle in your praise of Itachi. I don't know why you are attempting present such troll like responses here. Maybe you figured no one is going to catch them, but me.(As I'm clearly one of the only one's that reading them.) And already addressed issue with Kaguya and here absorption. She absorbed the one's composed of pure chakara, and was damage by the one's which still had some physical aspects to them. Even Nagato was hit first ....Before he was able to absorbs Bee's chakara. The same goes with Kaguya and Amaterasu. And NOBODIES EVER BEEN ABLE TO ABSORB SUSANO'O, WHICH IS WHY SHE OPTED TO EITHER DODGE IT OR DESTROY IT. I think you are operating with the assumption that all chakara has behave like preta path.



You're an idiot. I have said multiple times in my time here that Itachi >Kaguya. You haven't read my post history thoroughly at all. Did you read all of my posts since December 2018? No, so stop making shit up without checking your facts first.  Seveal users I know can vouch for me on this, including @kokodeshide, who I have debated Itachi the most, but seems to be offline nowadays because they are very sick, and I literally clash heads with that user regularly on Itachi, whenever they are online.

You're such a liar its disgusting. And even in my posts, I have continously supported Black zetsu's statements, which automatically tell you that I have Itachi >Kaguya. We see Nagato moving to blitz KCM Naruto with Ningendo, and Moving to blitz Killer Bee after blowing him away with a shinra Tensei after Kabuto took direct control. And there are plenty of people reading this thread, as evident by the comments. Such a liar.

And don't shift the goal posts. Totsuka blitzing both Oro and Nagato without reactions are feats. The only feats we have to go on. The blade effortlessy moved and pierced their targets and couldn't be reacted to. We have Databook statements and Black Zetsu. Burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> (Note: I'm not posting this video to necessarily justify the Uchiha's COUP. As I REALLY DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK IN REGARDS TO THAT AT THIS POINT. I'm posting to the video to showcase THE UCHIHA PERSPECTIVE; FROM THE LEADER OF THE CLANS, PERSPECTIVE. AND IT VERY MUCH DISPROVES YOUR BS, "The Uchiha however failed to try and make the effort to gain the trust of the village"




I watched the video like 5 times now, and each time none of your fanfiction was supported. The persecution by the Leaf in *Fugaku's time*  was the  (poorly handled) surveillance and relocation of the village nothing more in response to the Kyuubi attack. Uchihas could participate in the academy and become jonin, police officers, or even anbu black ops.  The uchiha were proud of their jobs, generally speaking,  but were upset at the village for the relocation in response to kyuubi attack: Why would the majority of the clan participate in a job they don't like? It's clearly optional to be in the police force, as not all uchiha are enrolled.






IpHr0z3nI said:


> WHERE ARE THEM SHARINGANS?
> 
> (YOU DON'T KNOW THE MANGA BETTER THAN ME. AND YOU PROBABLY NEVER WILL. BUT DIDN'T YOU TELL ME TO DO MY RESEARCH BEFORE RESPONDING? YEAH BECAUSE YOU DO THAT?)




OH MY GOD YOURE A LIAR.




Just because the author doesn't always show us a proper closeup of the eye doesn't mean the details aren't there.  Tobi's eye in this panel seems to be closed, yet we know his sharingan is active, and we see the same sharingan in the eyes of the Kyuubi, which ONLY dissappeared after the contract seal. I literally told you that in my previous post, and not only did you ignore it in favour of headcanon, you have the STUPIDITY to not even double check before commenting and confidently claim you know the manga better than I, so dishonest.. @X III  you seriously give rep to a guy who literally lies about things that happened on panel? Be my guest bud.  The fact that the eye pattern of the Kyuubi changed shows he was previously being controlled by an Uchiha, and the many shinobi fighting Kurama wouldn't have missed this moment. Kurama's eyes change from a circle, to sharingan, and then back to the standard fox eye, and NO ONE NOTICED? Yeah, concession accepted. Even when Madara controlled the kyuubi against Hashirama, we could see the sharingan in its eyes:



 Kushina , Minato, and Hiruzen took EXTRA precuations to oversee the Jinchuruiki seal during childbirth, so the chances of it being a "natural disaster "were slim. Yet the nine tails just gets miraculously* summoned* in the village and that isn't suspicious to you?


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 25, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Also the Uchiha clan had NO LEVERAGE OUTSIDE OF THREAT OF A COUP. WE WERE TOLD THAT THE ONLY ONE WHO EVEN BROUGHT UP THE IDEA OF "" WAS HIRUZEN, AND AS I SAID BEFORE...... So once again you need to DO YOU HOMEWORK, UTILIZE OTHER RESOURCES IF YOU HAVE TO. BECAUSE YOU ARE CLEARLY NOT RELYING ON EVERYTHING THE MANGA IS GIVEN AS I SAID WATCH THE VIDEO.




Yeah no, Hiruzen has influence, as he alone bought the Uchiha more time by asking Koharu and Danzo to stand down. At this point, the elders were aware of the uchiha coup plans for *6 months*, yet they didn't think to label the Uchiha traitors until after Shisui's plan to stop the coup de'eat failed: Hiruzen bought 6 months of time, plus MORE, as I proved a significant amount of time plus  a week passed after Itachi informed the elders that Shisui's plan failed, and that the coup plan was still online from the Uchiha.









IpHr0z3nI said:


> (ARE YOU ESSENTIALLY TRYING TO JUSTIFY GENOCIDE? YEAH I DON'T THINK THAT'S AN ACCEPTABLE "PRACTICE" IN ANY CULTURE. RELIGION. COUNTRY. ETC.ETC. HOW DO YOU EVEN UTTER THOSE WORDS WHEN YOU KNOW DAMN WELL THAT. AND YOU WOUNDER WHY ITACHI FANS DON'T FAR WELL WHEN IT COMES TO THIS DISCUSSION)
> 
> DON'T OUTRIGHT EMBARRASS YOURSELF FOR THE SAKE OF TRYING TO COMPETE IN AN ARGUMENT. BECAUSE NO WHERE IN THE MANGA WAS IT IMPLIED THAT KONOHA DECISION WAS CORRECT. OTHERWISE ITACHI, HIMSELF WOULDN'T HAVE




I'm not taking your bait, lying kid.   The entire clan was complicit in planning to overthrow the govenrment. Massacring a clan of *traitorous soldiers* before they get the chance to *do it to you* is called a preemptive force, a well known policy that even an international court would agree on if it's justified:



"However, most do tend to agree on several fundamental prerequisites for a preemptive strike to be conceived as potentially justifiable. The attack has to come as a reaction to a *perceived threat that is both absolutely credible and immediate.* The state that reacts to the threat needs to make the case that a preemptive attack is the only effective way to defend itself. The preemptive action needs to be proportionate in scope and scale with the perceived threat. The wholly subjective nature of these judgments, however, places the burden firmly on the attacking state to justify its actions to the international ."


In both the wikipedia and britannica article, its clear that the use of preemptive force, while highly debated, can  be justified in some extreme cases. Even the UN is willing to consider it on a case by case basis. _It's subjective._

If  Fugaku's plan failed, the rest of the clan would follow through with their desires in their own way, .  At least a few might awaken MS Sharigan too, and they would happily attack Konoha in vengeance for the death of Fugaku/Itachi, on top of their already existing  resentment and desires, as indicated in the video you yourself posted.  Hiruzen opened peace talks, and the clan ignored them, I showed you a scan of Fugaku being reluctant to address mail that he was sent by the Hokage, and Itachi had to drill him on it just to go to Sasuke's entrance ceremony. So don't make shit up you liar. And don't act like children aren't capable of fighting. Even Kakashi implies there are kids stronger than him, yet younger than 12 year old Naruto:


And any children who would be unable to fight had to be killed, otherwise they could become a threat to the lives of Konoha in the future, just like Sasuke did.  And it's already implied that Sasuke happened to be the youngest uchiha at the time, as he seemingly was the only not informed about the coup plans due to his "innocence". And even most elderly people could fight, look at chiyo and Hiruzen for example.  So regardless, That part was a necessary evil, but the clan themselves are to blame because they refused to listen to Hiruzen's peace talks. Hiruzen only needs to convince the other two elders in order to have a majority. Danzo was the extremist in terms of anti uchiha, but even he was patient enough to give Hiruzen time to make peace talks in all renditions of the Uchiha massacre story. Hiruzen checked Danzo, and the tiebreaking vote only required Hiruzen to convince the other two elders of a suitable peace agreement with the Uchiha.



And don't act like I didn't say Konoha was in the wrong. Don't play dumb. I said the way they went about the survelillance was wrong, and execution of the relocation is wrong.* But two wrongs don't make a right*. Both sides made wrong choices, but in the end, Hiruzen made sure that peace talks could be opened as a last chance, and the Uchiha refused Hiruzen's efforts,a*s he himself gave the final say on Itachi doing the massacre, despite being on the Uchiha side from the beginning in terms making peace:*






You really think Itachi is foolish enough to trust Danzo, the guy who  essentially indirectly killed his best friend? Itachi made sure to buy time for Hiruzen. And we know that Itachi trusts Hiruzen as he got on his knees and begged for him to protect Sasuke , as he didn't make any threats to him  or Konoha, regarding Sasuke's protection, he only did so to Danzo, He didn't come with that same "anti konoha " energy if Sasuke is harmed,  as he did with Danzo, for obvious reasons, which supports my idea that him threatening to release information was specifically a bluff for Danzo:



Itachi only beseeched Hiruzen, no evidence that he used the "releasing info" threat on Hiruzen, like he did to danzo:








Like I said, Konoha had the right to stomp the rebellion, and the Uchiha had the right to rebel, given circumstances. But just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean you should. How often do you see middle class people giving money to charity in real life? I have no legal or even ethical right to give money to other people for free that I don't care about, but it would be selfless of me to do it anyway. Just like it would have been selfless of the Uchiha to at least try making peace with their oppressors, when the Hokage himself was vouching for them. You don't know what would have happened if they heard Hiruzen out, just like you can't confirm that Sasuke would have changed the hearts of the Uchiha. I stopped taking your argument seriously when you said I was PRO Konoha. Shows you haven't comprehended anything and continue to lie, just like you admitted to not reading Part One, concession accepted.  I said both parties were wrong, both were justified in their desires, I simply asked you not to sugar coat the Uchiha side, from the beginning. Itachi's decision to side with Konoha was morally grey, and of course he was a criminal rofl, killing your family isn't exactly lawful in any context. But it was sanctioned by the government.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> So they already showed they were will to concede power IF IT MEANT PEACE BEFORE. So w



yeah, a previous iteration of the clan who was tired from fighting the Senju for years and wanted it to stop, and genuinely had the HUMILITY to give the new village system a chance, despite having to now buddy up with the people who killed their families. The new iteration of the clan under Fugaku enjoyed relative peace with the village,  just prior to the kyuubi attack on Konoha. And they decided that peace could be no more, they wanted that power through force, some through blood, some through "bloodless fighting". Same shit at the end of the day. There were other clans besides the Uchiha that joined the village early on as well, yet you don't see them being greedy for power rofl. The uchiha clan being a police force is still more power than most of the other clans had. And even in real life, police are not always brutal or mean to the public. I have had positive interactions with police in my life. The only mistake Tobirama made was not making an internal affairs department to stop the Uchiha from being conceited, as well as relocation. He wanted Uchiha to be conceited without any checks on their police enforcement so that they would be more easily disliked. Tobirama's execution of the police force was poor due to his prejudice, and like i said, the relocation was wrong,  but lets not act like he didn't give them some authority that other clans didn't have. And don't make stuff up, we see the Uchiha being happily taught by Konoha ninjas, like the one who taught Itachi and Sasuke and helped them graduate the academy and such.

Itachi's mistake was not consulting Sasuke, but again, irrelevant, as nothing indicated back then that it would work.  Hindsight is 20/20. Hiruzen reached out. Shisui in his suicide note mentioned he was tired of the direction that the clan was going in, and had to resort to Koto to get the clan to change their mind, etc, and the CLAN STILL REFUSED PEACE.




IpHr0z3nI said:


> And what did I state? "None of showcased Uchiha unlocked their sharingan through hate."



Don't make up more lies kid, you are already breaking records. All I said was that the uchiha are biochemically cursed to get stronger the more they hate. Tobirama has spent all his life with Uchihas, so he has a big enough sample size, a much bigger sample size than you do.  You cite the uchiha main characters which can be counted on two hands, where as Tobirama has experienced many Uchihas, both as enemies and later comrades.He even said that Uchiha can awaken the sharingan due to being dissapointed. More times than not though, the love they had is transformed into hatred when they awaken sharingan, and the hatred grows their chakra, and vice versa. Tobirama himself, despite having an admitted prejudice had an Uchiha in his personal squadron. And admitted there were uchiha who never succummed to hate or anything like that and were actually loyal to him and the village, so Sarada activating the sharingan through love and not becoming hateful doesn't mean shit. Tobirama was already aware of this:






[


IpHr0z3nI said:


> You do know two of them aren't even confirmed shinobi's) So that just leaves Danzo and Hiruzen and Sarutobi, but it's not that simple. It's a surprise attack, so Danzo may not necessarily be prepared. And even if Danzo were to REVEAL HIS ARM IN FRONT OF SARUTOBI



Such a liar exposed, this guy deserves rep for blatant,clear lies? UNREAL. Keep making a fool of yourself and claiming you know the manga better than I.  You know the manga better, right. Therefore I must conclude you are intentionally lying to deceive me here.

 STOP LYING. Both elders were part of Tobirama's squad and participated in the shinobi world war. One of them is named Koharu, the other Homura: We literally see Old Hiruzen call her *BY NAME* in one of your scans, proving you are too stupid to process your own scans, like I said a while back:




I don't give a dam whether you think Fugaku's coup would work or not, as that's an interesting  VS debate, but for another thread. It's an armed conflict, and Danzo's Root has unknown numbers with unknown abilities, who could come to back him up.  And Danzo is the least trusting of the Uchiha in the room he would be the first to retaliate against Fugaku, and Hiruzen would have no choice to join in, as well as t. And he has other skills besides sharingan/koto/ hashi cells, like the curse mark he used on MS Sasuke. So get your headcanon out of here kid.





IpHr0z3nI said:


> "*Sasuke was forced into a predicament and in that moment, he created this technique*." is kinda contradicted by the manga. As .(And you wounder why I arbitrated earlier that Kishi contradicts himself, to justify the "Itachi contegency" argument.



And again, your interpretation of Kagutsuchi is incorrect because Databook says that Sasuke created the technique. I'm willing to meet you half way and say it's ambiguous, and you have a valid argument, but it isn't at all definitive proof, so you can't cross that over to Totsuka, something that multiple people are stated to be looking for.


Secondly, Black Zetsu has seen MS users, and they aren't exactly common. We are told multiple times that MS awakenings are relatively rare in clan history. In fact, Madara was the first known one along with Izuna, during warring stats. Nothing at all indicates that the blade is a Susano'o jutsu, as Susano'o itself is rare as Tobi stated, and if it was, no one would be searching for it. Madara was the only person who showed Susano'o during warring states period, and we know he doesn't have Totsuka. Black Zetsu served as Kishimoto's voice, yet he only mentioned that people failed to locate it, implying that Itachi found it first, not that Itachi must have AWAKENED Totsuka. My theory isn't fanfiction because we are literally told multiple people are searching for the Blade, and Akatsuki is stated to be searching for jutsu and techniques, among other things, which was shown to include Totsuka. You can't search for something that doesn't exist and can't be found.


And lastly, I could care less about Itachi using Obito's help to beat the Uchiha. And the anime depcition is bullshit, the Uchiha clan isn't that weak, manga portrays otherwise.  Obito was not allowed full engagements against Konoha when Itachi was in the Akatsuki. so anything else you say is irrelevant. His role wasn't to provide info, and it wouldn't have been easy to do with Kisame by his side. Akatsuki duos are also in pairs to prevent betrayal.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 25, 2019)

X III said:


> @IpHr0z3nI
> Wanted to rep you, but I got this message:
> 
> "Seriously? Do you really not have more than 6 friends on the forum? Give reputation to some other users first, to prove that you aren't a loser, and therefore worthy of our reputation system."
> ...



 Sad times indeed.....


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 25, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Except Databook Three says the same thing Zetsu does. And a person who has seen all of  the heavy hitters/god tiers in action and also specializes in information gathering/espionage is a credible source, especially when Black Zetsu was at best a neutral character toward Itachi, given that it was revealed he knew to a certain extent that Itachi was working for Konoha:


(So we are conceding the Kagutsuchi argument? Yes, no? You didn't address it. So I'm assuming you've DID JUST THAT)

Upon reading your post . It's quite clear YOU REALLY, REALLY SHOULDN'T BE TAKEN TO SERIOUSLY ANYMORE.(I promise you this isn't going to be what my last post was DEPENDING ON JUST HOW SINCERE I THINK YOUR ARGUMENT IS)

But DEAL HOW

First of all you do know what the data book says about Amaterasu, right?(Yeah, No?) Yeah here's a general idea of just how much emphases we place on "Data Book" Hype around ...



> His opinion is portrayed as a manga fact. Concession accepted. Kishimoto can speak through characters, you know.


KIshi speaks through characters? Then why oh why do we Did I literally just post three different opinions from three different characters regarding Amaterasu? Are the all Kishi SPEAKING TROUGH ALL CHARACTERS, THEN?

Concession Accepted he says? I don't think you quite understand the term?


And I read you trying to pitch the same BS to another , and even he was willing to buy what you were selling.

Correct me if I ain't right, but didn't you say "I got tons of reputation points and swung hearts and minds with my post on Yata and Totsuka."

Yeah looks like you failed their buddy.




> Black Zetsu declared the invincibilty because the blade's speed is too fast and its OHKO, plus the YM can't be breached. *It doesn't take a genius to comprehend that the simultaneous usage of such weapons would render someone of the caliber of Itachi invincible.* He is already high kage without those weapons.



You said in another thread ""


Sigh....You are found of using databook right? ""(That's not  an opinion or hyperbole. That's a fact)

And YES "" Includes both Totsuka and Yata.

And we know DAMN WELL EMS SASUKE ISN'T BEATING HASHI.

So either Itachi isn't as "INVINCIBLE" as you think...OR KISHI MUST BE LYING.




> Yes, because two liars can't think alike? I showed you an explanation of reflexes, and you ignored it. Concession accepted.
> Orochimaru has reacted to kunai and chakra arms without any issue, attacks that couldn't even kill him. Its instinct to react to enemy attacks. Even when Oro opts to tank attacks, we still see the evidence that he reacted.
> 
> 
> ...



Question...BETWEEN THE TWO SCANS YOU POSTED THERE.


*Spoiler*: __ 










And THIS....YOU DON'T SEE ANY DIFFERENCE IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF ORO? IF YOUR ANSWER ISN'T ANYTHING BUT A YET...

THEN THE ONLY LIAR.....IS YOU!



> Don't play dumb. *The context of mobility is foot speed*, as you claimed that Oro and Nagato having mobility issues (Oro being stuck in his snake) and Nagato having bad legs, somehow renders their reflexes inoperable. Neither person could SEE the speed of the blade, as neither registered a mental reaction. Preta Path might require an arm to be moved, but Nagato doesn't have a mobility issue in his arms, in fact, his arms were fast enough to blitz Bee and put a laser to his head.  Oro couldn't even muster a natural guard like the one he did to Sasuke's chidori. He has ALWAYS reacted to attacks, but this time, there wasn't even a mental reaction, as he said "eh?" in response to the blade's speed.  And we have seen Nagato react to attacks with Shinra Tensei without lifting an arm, like the first Shinra Tensei he used on Kakashi in the Pain Arc. Him needing to lift an arm was something retconn'd after the fact. Nagato not being in control is irrelevant to reflexes. The Third Raikage still had reflexes even as a mind controlled Edo, and they were dam good reflexes.



-the quality or state of being  or movable(Check ANY DEFINITION YOU WANT, I THINK IT REFERS TO MORE THAN JUST FOOT SPEED)

I've already address MOST OF THIS IN DETAIL!(YOU ARE NOT GOING TO WAIST MY TIME ANY LONGER)

And You do know Nagato DOES NOT EQUAL PAIN, RIGHT?...Nagato being controlled is very relevant. As it means Kabuto is the one DOIN THE CONTROLLING. AND THE THIRD RAIKAGE STILL HAVING REFLEXES MEANS LITTLE. FIRST OF ALL THEIR TWO DIFFERENT CHARACTERS. ONE IS KNOWN FOR HIS SPEED AND THE OTHER ISN'T. Secondly Raikage having reflexes doesn't have SQUAT TO DO WITH NAGATO'S SITUATION. No one isn't saying being controlled = doesn't have reflexes. We are simply pointing out that NAGATO CLEARLY WASN'T IN CONTROL...(It;s that simple)





> And concession accepted. All you had to do was read the original posts of each thread. I'm not copying and pasting shit, I already linked them, and it's the same information. Nothing has changed.  I am not copying and pasting two large posts that you already have access to. Read them or don't, eitther way, your concession is accepted. But just as a bonus, I'll give you one scan here that debunks one of your other lies about Pain needing shared vision to react with Shinra Tensei to an attack coming out of smokescreens. He percieved the attack, and sees the projectile, and then Shinra Tensei's it after it crosses some distance. And this isn't the only example either.


NO, I'M NOT GOING TO DO YOUR JOB FOR YOU....(WE ALREADY KNOW WHO'S SPENDING MORE TIME WITH THEIR POST, ALREADY)

You post a picture of PAIN...But we are discussing Nagato OBVIOUSLY.(When you can comprehend that one does not equal the other than we can talk..About any CONCESSIONS)





> You're an idiot. I have said multiple times in my time here that Itachi >Kaguya. You haven't read my post history thoroughly at all. Did you read all of my posts since December 2018? No, so stop making shit up without checking your facts first.  Seveal users I know can vouch for me on this, including @kokodeshide, who I have debated Itachi the most, but seems to be offline nowadays because they are very sick, and I literally clash heads with that user regularly on Itachi, whenever they are online.


I'm an idiot, A? Sigh let's go back to something I linked earlier.

Sigh....You are found of using databook right? ""(That's not  an opinion or hyperbole. That's a fact)

Kaguya > Juubito >  > EMS Sasuke > Itachi....

And I've obviously not read your history...BUT I'VE LEARN MY LESSON.....NOTE THIS RESPONSE IS GOING TO BE MUCH SHORTER THAN THE OTHERS.




> You're such a liar its disgusting. And even in my posts, I have continously supported Black zetsu's statements, *which automatically tell you that I have Itachi >Kaguya.* We see Nagato moving to blitz KCM Naruto with Ningendo, and Moving to blitz Killer Bee after blowing him away with a shinra Tensei after Kabuto took direct control. And there are plenty of people reading this thread, as evident by the comments. Such a liar.



We means we having really nothing to discuss. BECAUSE YOUR BELIEF IS WRONG...PERIOD.

But hey...."I got tons of reputation points and swung hearts and minds with my post on Yata and Totsuka."

Since that statement implies you are relying on the validation of others...Care to a poll regarding Itachi vs. Kaguya? Yeah I don't think you want to do that. And I don't want to be called out for making a AN OBVIOUS SPITE THREAD.




> And don't shift the goal posts. *Totsuka blitzing both Oro and Nagato without reactions are feats. The only feats we have to go on. The blade effortlessy moved and pierced their targets and couldn't be reacted to.* We have Databook statements and Black Zetsu. Burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise.


Sometime I really, really think you are just responding without reading...

And I think I've already elaborated on WHAT A BLITZ IS...

Burden of proof is on me? But I think I've already proved it in "SONG" in my last post.

But I'm afraid Zetsu statement or the databook DOESN'T ACTUALLY VALIDATE THE BOLD AT ALL...(YOU TROLL POSTING. AND HAVE BEEN FOR A WHILE)








> I watched the video like 5 times now, and each time none of your fanfiction was supported. The persecution by the Leaf in *Fugaku's time*  was the  (poorly handled) surveillance and relocation of the village nothing more in response to the Kyuubi attack. Uchihas could participate in the academy and become jonin, police officers, or even anbu black ops.  The uchiha were proud of their jobs, generally speaking,  *but were upset at the village for the relocation in response to kyuubi attack: Why would the majority of the clan participate in a job they don't like? It's clearly optional to be in the police force, as not all uchiha are enrolled.*


(So before we continue....I'M GOING TO MAKE THE ASSUMPTION YOU CONCEDED TO EVERYTHING I POSTED PRIOR TO HERE.....)

Correct me if I ain't right, but if what I argued is all BACKED BY MULTIPLE SOURCES; HOW IS IT FANFICTION? I showed you an example of fanfiction. I provided you a definition to boot.

Yeah I don't think participating the academy and jonin, was EVER AN ISSUE I OR ANY SOURCE I CITED RAISED? Talk about Straw Man.

And I think we already already addressed the POLICE ISSUE. And the ANBU AS WELL. Uh I think the issue had issues with their circumstances before the KURAMA ATTACK...And I'VE ALREADY VALIDATED THAT WITH PANEL.(Don' WAIST MY TIME WITH A BULLSHIT, HALF ASS, NOT SUPPORTED RESPONSE IN *BOLD*)








> OH MY GOD YOURE A LIAR.


Yeah I don't think any of the villagers saw that....CONSIDERING THE PANEL CLEARLY SHOWCASES KURAMA LOOKING UP, AND HIS EYES RETURNING TO NORMAL SHORTLY AFTER.(But you're welcome to prove me wrong)



> Just because the author doesn't always show us a proper closeup of the eye doesn't mean the details aren't there.


What are you talking about, we have a CLOSE UP....PLEASE DON'T MAKE UP HEAD CANON.



> Tobi's eye in this panel seems to be closed, yet we know his sharingan is active, and we see the same sharingan in the eyes of the Kyuubi, which ONLY dissappeared after the contract seal. I literally told you that in my previous post, and not only did you ignore it in favour of headcanon, you have the STUPIDITY to not even double check before commenting and confidently claim you know the manga better than I, so dishonest.. @X III  you seriously give rep to a guy who literally lies about things that happened on panel? Be my guest bud.


Yeah I've actually posted of the Kurama's eyes IT DOESN'T SHOWCASE THEM SHARINGANS AT ANY POINT BETWEEN THE CASTING AND THE BREAKING.(SO THE ONLY PERSON BEING DISHONEST IS YOU)

And I think you need to actually read @X III comment carefully....(I didn't get any rep from him.)

But why would you care if he rep me or not? After all you've...."I got tons of reputation points and swung hearts and minds with my post on Yata and Totsuka."

Surely you could do the same regarding this discussion.....




> The fact that the eye pattern of the Kyuubi changed shows he was previously being controlled by an Uchiha, and the many shinobi fighting Kurama wouldn't have missed this moment.


Except that obviously did because BECAUSE YOUR PANEL KINDA SHOWCASES KURAMA LOOKING UPWARDS...And their isn't any indication that any shinobi above Kurama....



> Kurama's eyes change from a circle, to sharingan, and then back to the standard fox eye, and NO ONE NOTICED? Yeah, concession accepted. Even when Madara controlled the kyuubi against Hashirama, we could see the sharingan in its eyes:


Keywords there, "Madara controlled the kyuubi against Hashirama, we could see the sharingan in its eyes:"

That wasn't the case for Obito Mr...



> Kushina , Minato, and Hiruzen took EXTRA precuations to oversee the Jinchuruiki seal during childbirth, so the chances of it being a "natural disaster "were slim. Yet the nine tails just gets miraculously* summoned* in the village and that isn't suspicious to you?


Yeah I don't think I ever questioned Kushina and Minato....And as I said before I don't think  was the problem.
(Yeah Naruto forums....I KEPT IT TO ONE POST)


----------



## Kisame (Jul 25, 2019)

I wish Kisame was relevant enough to the plot that I could write tl;drs for him like these two do for Itachi and Sasuke.


----------



## X III (Jul 25, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> @X III you seriously give rep to a guy who literally lies about things that happened on panel? Be my guest bud.


I happen to find his posts to be far more convincing than yours. That's all there is to it.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 25, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Yeah no, Hiruzen has influence, as he alone bought the Uchiha more time by asking Koharu and Danzo to stand down. At this point, the elders were aware of the uchiha coup plans for *6 months*,* yet they didn't think to label the Uchiha traitors until after Shisui's plan to stop the coup de'eat failed*: Hiruzen bought 6 months of time, plus MORE, as I proved a significant amount of time plus  a week passed after Itachi informed the elders that Shisui's plan failed, and that the coup plan was still online from the Uchiha.



(One post down one to go...I'M GOING TO BE AS EFFICIENT AS LAST TIME, BUT I'VE ALREADY BODIED YOU IN MY LAST RESPONSE)

Regarding the bold why did Shisui plan to stop the coup fail again? Danzo? Yeah how can utilize the links you did with such an obvious FACT STARING YOU IN THE FACE.

And technically speaking the Uchiha's weren't traitors, AS THEY ONLY GOT TO THE PLOTTING PART.

(Emphases on attempting..........PLANNING =/ ATTEMPTING)

And how does buying more time make up for the fact that the only Uchiha we see conversing with the "HIGHER UPS" IS ITACHI.

The video of Fugaku takes place after Shisui died, as Itachi had the Mangekyo by then...And notice the scene again...



@ .25(Itachi's Sharingan? ANBU?DANZO)

You claim you watched the video five times, but didn't incorporate it at all into your response. Itachi had likely already stop feeding information in regards to the village to the Uchiha by then.....Judging by Fugaku response in the other video I showed about the night of the massacre("Are going to show me...." "From what I showed you?") this was likely final time Fugaku would try to sway Itachi to side with him.

Obviously there was no talking between Fugaku and Hiruzen......(@ ANY POINT)

But please oh please keep creating Head Canon...(I enjoy making your self sound STUPID MR. "GENOCIDE" is justified)





> *I'm not taking your bait*, lying kid.   The entire clan was complicit in planning to overthrow the govenrment. Massacring a clan of *traitorous soldiers* before they get the chance to *do it to you* is called a preemptive force, a well known policy that even an international court would agree on if it's justified:
> [LINKHL]454106[/LINKHL]
> [LINKHL]454107[/LINKHL]


But you kinda already DID?(I was just trying to see how DUMB YOU WERE WILLING TO MAKE YOURSELF LOOK JUSTIFY KONOHA'S/ITACHI'S ACTION)

I've already given you the definition of treason..YOU STATED YOUR SELF "PLANNING"

And you should probably read your  before you post them genius

" There are also several disadvantages to this . For one, the threatened state might be wrong in its  of the threat and launch an unwarranted destructive attack. Second, the use of a preemptive force by one state might set a precedent that would lead to widespread abuse of the preemptive option.

Scholars and politicians sharply disagree on the ultimate legitimacy of the use of preemptive force. However, most do tend to agree on several fundamental prerequisites for a preemptive strike to be conceived as potentially justifiable. The attack has to come as a reaction to a perceived threat that is both absolutely credible and immediate. The state that reacts to the threat needs to make the case that a preemptive attack is the only effective way to defend itself. The preemptive action needs to be proportionate in scope and scale with the perceived threat. *The wholly subjective nature of these judgments, however, places the burden firmly on the attacking state to justify its actions to the international ."
*
Everything is relevant BUT THE BOLD IS HOOK LINE AND SINKER...Did KONOHA DO THE BOLD? OR DID THEY ALLOW ITACHI TO TAKE THE BLAME?





> "However, most do tend to agree on several fundamental prerequisites for a preemptive strike to be conceived as potentially justifiable. The attack has to come as a reaction to a *perceived threat that is both absolutely credible and immediate.* *The state that reacts to the threat needs to make the case that a preemptive attack is the only effective way to defend itself.* The preemptive action needs to be proportionate in scope and scale with the perceived threat. The wholly subjective nature of these judgments, however, places the burden firmly on the attacking state to justify its actions to the international [LINKHL]454108[/LINKHL]."


Already Beat you to it....Please read the underline....THAT'S ALREADY CONTRADICTED BY....


*Spoiler*: __ 











"Only effective way to DEAL WITH THE STRIKE, A?"

(How did you think this BULLSHIT WAS GOING TO WORK. I GAVE THE CIRCUMSTANCES REGARDING WHAT LEAD TO EVERYTHING. I SHOWED YOU THAT DANZO WASN'T EXACTLY DO THE BEST IN REGARDS TO IGNORING THE MASSACRE)



> In both the wikipedia and britannica article, its clear that the use of preemptive force, while highly debated, can  be justified in some extreme cases. Even the UN is willing to consider it on a case by case basis. _It's subjective._



But none of them ever addressed the issues that led to the UCHIHA MAKING A DECISION TO STAGE A COUP....(You somehow didn't get to that. AS YOU CLEARLY SKIPPED OVER A WHOLE POST. YOU CAN'T THINK YOU ARE GOING TO WIN THIS DEBATE NOW)



> If  Fugaku's plan failed, the rest of the clan would follow through with their desires in their own way, .  *At least a few might awaken MS Sharigan too*, and they would happily attack Konoha in vengeance for the death of Fugaku/Itachi, on top of their already existing  resentment and desires, as indicated in the video you yourself posted.  Hiruzen opened peace talks, and the clan ignored them, I showed you a scan of Fugaku being reluctant to address mail that he was sent by the Hokage, and Itachi had to drill him on it just to go to Sasuke's entrance ceremony. So don't make shit up you liar. And don't act like children aren't capable of fighting. Even Kakashi implies there are kids stronger than him, yet younger than 12 year old Naruto:
> [LINKHL]454109[/LINKHL]


What manner of fanficition is the BOLD? YOU ONLY GAIN THE MS BY

*Spoiler*: __ 









Who say that any of the Uchiha would have GAINED ANYTHING? Fugaku was their Leader not necessarily the one's closes to him.

"Hiruzen opened peace talks, and the clan ignored them"(WHERE IS THIS...FIND IT FOR ME......OR STOP LYING)

You showcased me what? Is what you are referring too?(I think that was just a letter in regards to Sasuke entrance into the Academy)

And you know what?

*Spoiler*: __ 









Fugaku went.....SO WHERE IS THIS PEACE TALK THAT THE UCHIHA REFUSED?

"And don't act like children aren't capable of fighting."

"The children were already CONFIRMED BY THE MANGA THAT THE "(And Sasuke makes that case crystal clear...And talk about 12 years old.....Sasuke was 7..)





> *And any children who would be unable to fight had to be killed*, otherwise they could become a threat to the lives of Konoha in the rhstfinh future, just like Sasuke did.  And it's already implied that Sasuke happened to be the youngest uchiha at the time, as he seemingly was the only not informed about the coup plans due to his "innocence". And even most elderly people could fight, look at chiyo and Hiruzen for example.  So regardless, That part was a necessary evil, but the clan themselves are to blame because they refused to listen to Hiruzen's peace talks. Hiruzen only needs to convince the other two elders in order to have a majority. Danzo was the extremist in terms of anti uchiha, but even he was patient enough to give Hiruzen time to make peace talks in all renditions of the Uchiha massacre story. Hiruzen checked Danzo, and the tiebreaking vote only required Hiruzen to convince the other two elders of a suitable peace agreement with the Uchiha.
> [LINKHL]454110[/LINKHL]


Sasuke contradicts everything you cited your post....AND HE WAS THE WORSE POSSIBLE KID TO LEAVE ALIVE....HE WAS AN INDRA INCARNATE, ETC. ETC. Correct me if I ain't, but did Sasuke ever attacked the village? And where oh where was it implied that Sasuke was the youngest kid at the time? I've already established in an earlier post what that wasn't the case. AND YOU ALREADY ACKNOWLEDGED IT.

""

Don't try to back tread now...



> And don't act like I didn't say Konoha was in the wrong. Don't play dumb. I said the way they went about the survelillance was wrong, and execution of the relocation is wrong.* But two wrongs don't make a right*. Both sides made wrong choices, but in the end, Hiruzen made sure that peace talks could be opened as a last chance, and the Uchiha refused Hiruzen's efforts,a*s he himself gave the final say on Itachi doing the massacre, despite being on the Uchiha side from the beginning in terms making peace:*


(Two wrongs doesn't make a right? But  when you have generations...TO CORRECT SET WRONG, WHICH WASN'T WARRANTED TO  WITH)

What exactly was Hiruze's efforts? And who is the only  to have refusing his efforts, at any point?(Yeah you might want to stick just the KONOHA SIDE OF THINGS, AS YOU AREN'T QUITE GOOD AT ACCURATELY RECOLLECTING THE UCHIHA'S EFFORTS.)



> You really think Itachi is foolish enough to trust Danzo, the guy who  essentially indirectly killed his best friend? Itachi made sure to buy time for Hiruzen. And we know that Itachi trusts Hiruzen as he got on his knees and begged for him to protect Sasuke , as he didn't make any threats to him  or Konoha, regarding Sasuke's protection, he only did so to Danzo, *He didn't come with that same "anti konoha " energy if Sasuke is harmed,  as he did with Danzo, for obvious reasons, which supports my idea that him threatening to release information was specifically a bluff for Danzo*:
> [LINKHL]454111[/LINKHL]
> [LINKHL]454112[/LINKHL]


The same Itachi that I posted in the video was working under Danzo after "SET DANZO HAD KILLED HIS BEST FRIEND?
(AND YOU SAY YOU WATCHED THE VIDEO 5 TIMES)

Regarding the bold...HOW OH HOW DOES THAT SUPPORT YOUR "BLUFF" Argument? Why would he threaten Hiruzen? When Hiruzen was Itachi's best hope for protecting Sasuke? As you said earlier. "Itachi couldn't be there for Sasuke" or something to that effect.





> Itachi only beseeched Hiruzen, no evidence that he used the "releasing info" threat on Hiruzen, like he did to danzo:
> 
> [LINKHL]454112[/LINKHL]


Sigh read above...


[QUOTELike I said, Konoha had the right to stomp the rebellion, and the Uchiha had the right to rebel, given circumstances. But just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean you should. How often do you see middle class people giving money to charity in real life? I have no legal or even ethical right to give money to other people for free that I don't care about, but it would be selfless of me to do it anyway. *Just like it would have been selfless of the Uchiha to at least try making peace with their oppressors*, when the Hokage himself was vouching for them. You don't know what would have happened if they heard Hiruzen out, just like you can't confirm that Sasuke would have changed the hearts of the Uchiha. I stopped taking your argument seriously when you said I was PRO Konoha. Shows you haven't comprehended anything and continue to lie, just like you admitted to not reading Part One, concession accepted. I said both parties were wrong, both were justified in their desires, I simply asked you not to sugar coat the Uchiha side, from the beginning. Itachi's decision to side with Konoha was morally grey, and of course he was a criminal rofl, killing your family isn't exactly lawful in any context. But it was sanctioned by the government.[/QUOTE]
(The BOLD tells exactly why I'm wasting my time....I've already arbitrated that the Uchiha simply going back to the way the were pre Rebellion wasn't even an option....I think I gave a very, very detailed argument that the Uchiha issue's my not necessarily lie with just being oppressed. I addressed this from multiple perspectives.)

"Shows you haven't comprehended anything and continue to lie"

Says the one obviously SKIPPING OVER ENTIRE POST?(Yeah you stop taking me seriously? NO IT'S YOU WHO'S PROVING TO BE THE BIGGEST JOKE)

And I didn't sugar coat anything baby boy? Which is why I relied on MULTIPLE SOURCES THAN YOU DID. LOOK AT YOUR RESPONSE? Look at mine? WHO IS TRYING THEIR HARDEST TO IGNORE WHAT THE OTHER HAS TO SAY IN REGARDS TO THE UCHIHA? Who's trying to downplay their situation? Who is ignoring that I arbitrated outright that the Uchiha may have been operating with the same. What did Hashi himself state? Something along the lines that Madara may have been a ""

I'm sure I went to far, far more detail in regards to Uchiha side of things...BUT THAT'S OKAY...AS YOU'VE ALREADY CONCEDED THE DISCUSSION BY IGNORING MANY OF MY POINTS IN THE FIRST PLACE.



> yeah, a previous iteration of the clan who was tired from fighting the Senju for years and wanted it to stop, and genuinely had the HUMILITY to give the new village system a chance, despite having to now buddy up with the people who killed their families. *The new iteration of the clan under Fugaku enjoyed relative peace with the village,  just prior to the kyuubi attack on Konoha.* And they decided that peace could be no more, they wanted that power through force, some through blood, some through "bloodless fighting". Same shit at the end of the day. There were other clans besides the Uchiha that joined the village early on as well, yet you don't see them being greedy for power rofl. The uchiha clan being a police force is still more power than most of the other clans had. And even in real life, police are not always brutal or mean to the public. I have had positive interactions with police in my life. The only mistake Tobirama made was not making an internal affairs department to stop the Uchiha from being conceited, as well as relocation. He wanted Uchiha to be conceited without any checks on their police enforcement so that they would be more easily disliked. Tobirama's execution of the police force was poor due to his prejudice, and like i said, the relocation was wrong,  but lets not act like he didn't give them some authority that other clans didn't have. And don't make stuff up, we see the Uchiha being happily taught by Konoha ninjas, like the one who taught Itachi and Sasuke and helped them graduate the academy and such.


Regarding the *BOLD*



The POLICE FORCE WAS NOT A POSITION OF POWER....IT'S TRUE PURPOSE AGAIN


*Spoiler*: __ 










They couldn't arrest Itachi when he clearly first indicated signs of betraying the clan...As he was an ...
(And I'm pretty sure I went to elaborate detail about who exactly were the Anbu, were)

And fun fact  implicate that the ANBU WAS BEING UTILIZED AGAINST THE UCHIHA PRE KURAMA ATTACK.



> Itachi's mistake was not consulting Sasuke, but again, irrelevant, as nothing indicated back then that it would work.  Hindsight is 20/20. Hiruzen reached out. Shisui in his suicide note mentioned he was tired of the direction that the clan was going in, and had to resort to Koto to get the clan to change their mind, etc, and the CLAN STILL REFUSED PEACE.


(I've already addressed Itachi's mistakes already....I started addressing just that, but you IGNORE THE ENTIRE POST...SO YOU PROBABLY MISSED IT)


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 25, 2019)

> Don't make up more lies kid, you are already breaking records. All I said was that the uchiha are biochemically cursed to get stronger the more they hate. Tobirama has spent all his life with Uchihas, so he has a big enough sample size, a much bigger sample size than you do.  You cite the uchiha main characters which can be counted on two hands, where as Tobirama has experienced many Uchihas, both as enemies and later comrades.*He even said that Uchiha can awaken the sharingan due to being dissapointed. More times than not though, the love they had is transformed into hatred when they awaken sharingan, and the hatred grows their chakra, and vice versa. Tobirama himself, despite having an admitted prejudice had an Uchiha in his personal squadron.* And admitted there were uchiha who never succummed to hate or anything like that and were actually loyal to him and the village, so Sarada activating the sharingan through love and not becoming hateful doesn't mean shit. Tobirama was already aware of this:
> 
> [LINKHL]454113[/LINKHL]
> [LINKHL]454114[/LINKHL]


And once again you are indicating to not have read a thing...Tobirama's summary of the sharingan in a NUT SHELL


*Spoiler*: __ 










"The EYE THAT REFLECTS THEIR FEELINGS"

That would transcribe why ANY SHARINGAN,THAT WE WITNESSED, HAVE NEVER UNLOCKED THROUGH HATE...

The BOLD HAS NO FOUNDATION OR SUPPORT AT ALL...Was Tobirama a Uchiha? Did he really, really understand their feelings? . Considering Hashi delt with Madara, and didn't "Persecute" the Uchiha...Why oh why could Tobirama not maintain the status quo after he got the position?(You ain't gone win this baby boy)







> Such a liar exposed, this guy deserves rep for blatant,clear lies? UNREAL. *Keep making a fool of yourself and claiming you know the manga better than I. * You know the manga better, right. Therefore I must conclude you are intentionally lying to deceive me here.


(Yeah look at my responses in comparison to yours...YOU'VE ONLY PRODUCE TWO PANEL i WAS UNAWARE OF.....)
Yeah my previous response > This Trash Shit.



> STOP LYING. Both elders were part of Tobirama's squad and participated in the shinobi world war. One of them is named Koharu, the other Homura: We literally see Old Hiruzen call her *BY NAME* in one of your scans, proving you are too stupid to process your own scans, like I said a while back:
> 
> [LINKHL]454115[/LINKHL]


It's not lying if I'm not aware of something? If that was the case THEN YOU ARE A BETTER LIAR THAN Kabuto..Who's a better liar than Itachi himself.



> I don't give a dam whether you think Fugaku's coup would work or not, as that's an interesting  VS debate, but for another thread. It's an armed conflict, and Danzo's Root has unknown numbers with unknown abilities, who could come to back him up.  And Danzo is the least trusting of the Uchiha in the room he would be the first to retaliate against Fugaku, and Hiruzen would have no choice to join in, as well as t. And he has other skills besides sharingan/koto/ hashi cells, like the curse mark he used on MS Sasuke. So get your headcanon out of here kid.


And the Uchiha clan had unknown numbers as well.You have no merit to or license to question if Fugaku's plan would work..Considering it's essentially the same thing Konoha pulled? Surprise attack? Check? Two MS user? Check? The only difference is Fugaku and Itachi was clearly "The Lesser of the two evils."

 A "Bloodless Coup that would ensure some fighting" vs. "Genocide"? 



> And again, your interpretation of Kagutsuchi is incorrect because Databook says that Sasuke created the technique. I'm willing to meet you half way and say it's ambiguous, and you have a valid argument, but it isn't at all definitive proof, so you can't cross that over to Totsuka, something that multiple people are stated to be looking for.


(Already addressed this part in "SONG"... YOU IGNORED IT...Therefor you already CONCEDED THIS POINT)



> Secondly, Black Zetsu has seen MS users, and they aren't exactly common. We are told multiple times that MS awakenings are relatively rare in clan history. In fact, Madara was the first known one along with Izuna, during warring stats. Nothing at all indicates that the blade is a Susano'o jutsu, as Susano'o itself is rare as Tobi stated, and if it was, no one would be searching for it. Madara was the only person who showed Susano'o during warring states period, and we know he doesn't have Totsuka. Black Zetsu served as Kishimoto's voice, yet he only mentioned that people failed to locate it, implying that Itachi found it first, not that Itachi must have AWAKENED Totsuka. My theory isn't fanfiction because we are literally told multiple people are searching for the Blade, and Akatsuki is stated to be searching for jutsu and techniques, among other things, which was shown to include Totsuka. You can't search for something that doesn't exist and can't be found.


And the Uchiha clan began with Madara? Yeah I'm pretty sure Indra was the founder of the Uchiha clan. And Indra was an MS user.

Susano'o is rare? Which is why almost every showcased MS user has unlocked it at some point?

And I think I've already went into detail regarding Zetsu statement? Broke it down. Use the databook. Broke it down. Etc. etc.
Unless you are willing to put some effort into the "READING COMPREHENSION" PART YOU NEVER GOING TO BE ON MY LEVEL.





> And lastly, I could care less about Itachi using Obito's help to beat the Uchiha. And the anime depcition is bullshit, the Uchiha clan isn't that weak, manga portrays otherwise.  Obito was not allowed full engagements against Konoha when Itachi was in the Akatsuki. so anything else you say is irrelevant. His role wasn't to provide info, and it wouldn't have been easy to do with Kisame by his side. Akatsuki duos are also in pairs to prevent betrayal.


You do know that anime depiction is based of the Itachi novel Part 1 and 2...The only changed portion are Fugaku's MS. And Itachi the one to kill Izumi...(The anime actually pretty up that aspect because the anime doesn't show Obito killing her, but the novel does)

(I believe this has to be GG, as you are already ignoring entire post of information....AND I'm not going to waist my time regurgitating the same shit I said before. The same energy you had in regards to me not reading an entire post from another thread is the same energy I'm on now. But you are clearly ignoring post from THIS THREAD)

DAMN I WAS CONFIDENT I CAN KEEP THIS TO ONE POST....(Naruto forums I failed you)



X III said:


> I happen to find his posts to be far more convincing than yours. That's all there is to it.


I don't even believe he believes some of his shit.....(He's actually a pretty good poster if you read some of his other post in other threads. Or even some of his earlier one's here) But he's not consistent in his logic. And I don't even believe he serious about Itachi's power level being anything above high tier considering this was essentially a thread justifying why Itachi is high tier.



Shark said:


> I wish Kisame was relevant enough to the plot that I could write tl;drs for him like these two do for Itachi and Sasuke.


I not even mentioning much in regards to Sasuke at all. This is been largely about who knows ITACHI BETTER.(At least at first) Then I gradually moved the argument from Itachi's power level to his actions. The only remotely making this an Itachi vs Sasuke debate. Is the fact that I declared the Sasuke fanboys were Itachi's fans best posters.(That's the only reason why I'm still continue to even entertain him)


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## X III (Jul 25, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I don't even believe he believes some of his shit.....(He's actually a pretty good poster if you read some of his other post in other threads. Or even some of his earlier one's here) But he's not consistent in his logic. And I don't even believe he serious about Itachi's power level being anything above high tier considering this was essentially a thread justifying why Itachi is high tier.


Yeah, we had a couple of debates, and he made some pretty decent points.

But there were three things he did that made me lose interest in debating him:

1) A lot of personal interpretation and head canon.
2) He spins any and every thing in order to make Itachi look better than he actually is, as you commented on (this is also linked to his head canon).
3) Makes imaginary scenarios.

I actually have a thread as an example of one debate we had.





> Itachi casually caught Killer Bee, a perfect Jinchuriki, in genjutsu without him noticing. *Gyuki and Killer Bee were completely unaware of the genjutsu until Itachi TOLD them.* Itachi was seen in mid-air, and then he fell to the ground. Killer Bee released the tentacle for real, as we see that there was a hole in the ground and we see his tentacle even AFTER the genjutsu was broken. What does this mean? Itachi used a subtle genjutsu like the one he used against Deidara and manipulated Bee's sense of touch and sight to make him believe he grabbed at Itachi and lifted him into the air. Killer Bee thought he won the fight. In reality, he was grabbing thin air, and was none the wiser until Itachi made it obvious by turning into crows. *What people don't realize is that Itachi didn't have to do that, he could have let Killer Bee continue to think he won while in the real world he would have sniped him with amaterasu.* Killer Bee realized he was duped, all while precious seconds of real world time already passed while he was aiming and grabbing at a faux Itachi. Itachi then threw shurikens in the real world but made them look like crows.







> Itachi gets to CHOOSE what the victim sees. *Itachi turned into crows on purpose. He didn't have to do so.* *Killer Bee was given a MASSIVE hint.* *People don't just randomly turn into crows after you restrain them in mid-air. Itachi reinforced it by telling the dude to never look in his eyes... seriously.* You also didn't address the fact that Gyuki didn't notice either until way after the fact. *The same thing happened when Itachi fought Hebi Sasuke. The moment Sauske entered the hideout, he was already in genjutsu. He even believed he won when he stabbed "Itachi", just like Killer Bee did. Then Itachi made it obvious it was genjutsu by turning into crows after pointing to where the real Itachi was sitting. If Itachi wanted Bee dead, Bee would have been dead.* *While Killer Bee stands in la la land holding up the faux Itachi, The real Itachi could have slit his throat.*
> 
> *Itachi cared about bee.* *Bee could barely see Itachi's physical speed in the first place.* *Itachi outright speed blitzed Bee twice in that fight .* *He never used MS on him because he cared about him.* The only time he used MS was when he specifically wanted to test if Naruto still had Koto. *Itachi showed he could defeat Killer Bee with zero difficulty in that fight. He stalemated Bee in a kenjutsu clash with just a kunai or something despite fighting 7 swords all at once. He only retreated because he needed to do something about Edo Tensei.*





> Itachi simply deflects all of Minato's Kunai, and once his clone feint is ready, *he purposely lets one of Minato's kunai get behind him.* *Minato will think that the kunai got through because he did so himself, but in reality that is what Itachi wants him to think.* *Minato teleports, and the last thing he sees is an Itachi shadow clone right in his face.* There is zero chance to avoid eye contact now because FTG is instant, he instanteously makes eye contact with Itachi the instant he teleports in. If Itachi wants to spice it up a bit, *Minato teleports behind him and rasengans a karasu bunshin which explodes into disorienting crows as shown many times in the canon.* Itachi then appears amongst the crows like he did to SM kabuto and catches him in Tsykuyomi. Then followed by Totsuka.





> Itachi has the sharingan and lightning level synapses. Itachi knows too much about Minato's speed to make a move without waiting to see what Minato does first. Minato ALWAYS opens by prepping kunai. *Itachi can see the moment Minato grabs kunai with the sharingan, and then capture the moment Minato begins to throw them around.* *Itachi then uses his mega handseal speed and substitutes out with a crow clone*, and then starts throwing shurikens to deflect all of Minato's kunai. The fact that Minato can mark the enviornment doesn't matter, because Itachi will convince minato to teleport to the kunai that he throws directly behind Itachi.





> I am fully aware that Minato is much faster than Itachi in terms of raw body flicker speed. However, there is one context in which Itachi is faster than Minato, Aside from the things I mentioned in my previous post. *Itachi's clone feinting speed is faster than Juubito's Shunshin.* Why? *Because EMS Sasuke can somewhat react to track to Juubito yet he couldn't see Itachi's clone formations during the fight against SM Kabuto.* He was just as surprised as Kabuto was. and because he uses the substitution technique with his clones.



Those are just a couple of gems. You might find more if you read through the rest of the thread.

Despite his issues with Itachi, I think he's actually a good debater when it comes to other characters. He just can't contain his bias when it comes to Itachi.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 25, 2019)

X III said:


> Yeah, we had a couple of debates, and he made some pretty decent points.
> 
> But there were three things he did that made me lose interest in debating him:
> 
> ...



I agree with everything you stated....But HE STARTED OFF SO STRONG....

I was intending to go to bed, but looks I GOT SOMETHING TO DO,,,Thanks!

(And the first thread is Itachi featured.....who knew.).

Reactions: Like 1


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 25, 2019)

@ThirdRidoku (I'm doing my homework on you properly, and I'm not all the way done, but from what I've read so you are doing everything accused of doing...trying out IpHr0z3nI using ipHr0z3nI and it's quite clear how your posting tactic from your more recent post doesn't match your original style. But please oh please bother to respond I'm going to love to conclude this debate with not a final analysis on Itachi/Konoha, as that's old news. It's going to strictly be a "Love Letter" to you and only you.


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## Cinera (Oct 25, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> His intellect means he's usually ahead of most characters even able to tackle genius intellects like that of Kabuto Yakushi.
> His genjutsu is hard to counter for most characters. EMS Madara was able to subdue even the Raikage using genjutsu (though A was fatigued and distracted) - and I can't think of a single character with better portrayal of genjutsu than Itachi.
> Subdued Orochimaru and Deidara easily.
> His CQC skills are on par (or better imo) than KCM Naruto's.
> ...


The DB link is broken.


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## Sapherosth (Oct 25, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Except Databook Three says the same thing Zetsu does. And a person who has seen all of  the heavy hitters/god tiers in action and also specializes in information gathering/espionage is a credible source, especially when Black Zetsu was at best a neutral character toward Itachi, given that it was revealed he knew to a certain extent that Itachi was working for Konoha:
> 
> 
> His opinion is portrayed as a manga fact. Concession accepted. Kishimoto can speak through characters, you know.
> ...





I like your points about Tosuka Sword's speed. A lot of people outright deny its feat simply because it was used on Nagato & Orochimaru. 

I wouldn't agree that it can solo Kaguya, but that's another matter entirely. Kudos on the Tosuka speed feats.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mad Scientist (Oct 25, 2019)

Cinera said:


> The DB link is broken.


Hmm... Seems to be working for me?
It's a Databook link for Itachi's profile, third DB I believe.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cinera (Oct 25, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Hmm... Seems to be working for me?
> It's a Databook link for Itachi's profile, third DB I believe.


It's working for me now. It wasn't before though.


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## t0xeus (Oct 25, 2019)

Always getting creepy arrogant psychopathic drunk uncle vibes when reading @IpHr0z3nI posts 

No offense bro


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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 25, 2019)

Sapherosth said:


> I like your points about Tosuka Sword's speed. A lot of people outright deny its feat simply because it was used on Nagato & Orochimaru.
> 
> I wouldn't agree that it can solo Kaguya, but that's another matter entirely. Kudos on the Tosuka speed feats.



I largely agree with your opinions as well, but in my mind you put arbitrary limits on Totsuka and Yata when it comes to the founders and anyone above that level when they aren't at all portrayed to be exempt, and even give Madara and Hashirama knowledge on the weapons for some reason when even Black Zetsu/Orochimaru couldn't even recognize them immediately.... 

The moment Black Zetsu's backstory was unveiled it was pretty clear to me that Yata Mirror and Totsuka were intended to be the ultimate weapons of the verse. Totsuka and Yata were used to hype Itachi, not the other way around, so they are not bound by any of Itachi's weaknesses aside from the fact that living Itach can't hold them up for too long of a time period. It's just that most Naruto fans are plagued by DBZ logic. Itachi is a genius fighter in every area and has nearly unnatural levels of talent in almost everything except stamina and overall DC, which is the only reason people downplay his portrayal. DBZ logic good game apparently, since Itachi can't split a mountain range like Madara can or bust a dimension like Kaguya can, the artifacts he carries on his Susano'o are somehow worthless.



X III said:


> Despite his issues with Itachi, I think he's actually a good debater when it comes to other characters. He just can't contain his bias when it comes to Itachi.



This is rich coming from you man. We literally see the kyuubi with a sharingan in his eyes during the nine tails attack. its drawn on panel but you were too biased to see it. We literally see Koharu and the other elder, battling alongside Hiruzen against the nine tails, front row and center, the moment the sharingan appeared in the Kyuubi's eye, which is explicitly why they suspected an Uchiha. I expected a poster of your caliber to understand basic facts, but apparently, you can't when clouded by YOUR bias.  That's why I never replied back to this thread, I stopped taking both you and @IpHr0z3nI seriously after you denied something as simple as that, even claiming Koharu and Homura weren't shinobi ROFL when we literally see them in battle armor helping Hiruzen push the nine tails out of Konoha. 

And you didn't debunk a single thing in that thread between Itachi and Minato by the way, and I remember it well because it was one of the first posts you made on here and it reeked of bias, and then you left without responding back. The same way you ran away from that Haku thread, even refusing to click on links to evidence, showing how close-minded and biased you are.



X III said:


> 1) A lot of personal interpretation and head canon.
> 2) He spins any and every thing in order to make Itachi look better than he actually is, as you commented on (this is also linked to his head canon).
> 3) Makes imaginary scenarios.



1) not personal interpretation, it's what objectively happened
2) just your biased opinion.
3) This is just stupid. Because every battle simulation is an imaginary scenario that you construct based on shown character feats, skills, and exp. and nothing I did was "imaginary", at all. Everything I said Itachi could do was based on things he already showed. In both part one and part 2, he weaved signs for kage bunshin while simultaneously throwing shuriken/distracting his opponents with shuriken. It's just one of the many ways he could respond to the situation. *You literally "imagined" scenarios you hypocrite:*


X III said:


> Chakra Arm Rasengan Barrage.
> 
> Gamabunta to crush Susano'o with FCD.
> 
> ...



Its quite ironic, as two of the three things you listed here (bolded)  are things Minato has never actually done on panel, but I still accepted them because they are things he could REASONABLY attempt. But when I cite things Itachi actually showed on panel, and you can't counter it through quality analysis of the evidence, I'm the one pulling things out of my ass? I'm the one that can't contain their "bias".  Troll harder.


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## X III (Oct 25, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> This is rich coming from you man. We literally see the kyuubi with a sharingan in his eyes during the nine tails attack. its drawn on panel but you were too biased to see it. We literally see Koharu and the other elder, battling alongside Hiruzen against the nine tails, front row and center, the moment the sharingan appeared in the Kyuubi's eye, which is explicitly why they suspected an Uchiha.


What are you even talking about? 



ThirdRidoku said:


> That's why I never replied back to this thread, I stopped taking both you and @IpHr0z3nI seriously after you denied something as simple as that, even claiming Koharu and Homura weren't shinobi ROFL when we literally see them in battle armor helping Hiruzen push the nine tails out of Konoha.


You seem to have this misconception that I debated with you when I did not. All I did was side with @IpHr0z3nI. That doesn't mean that every single opinion he holds is something that applies to me, especially in such large walls of text where all I did was skim through to get a general idea of what was being said instead of actually reading it coherently.

Now if you were me, would you side with someone who in YOUR OPINION (I stress this out because I know you don't agree with me on this, but at least imagine if you did) is arguing that the Earth is flat (i.e. you arguing that Itachi can beat Kaguya)? No, I wouldn't do that, and neither would you. You'd naturally side with the opposing side. It also just so happened that @IpHr0z3nI was making points that I agreed with and gave me information that I previously didn't have.



ThirdRidoku said:


> and it reeked of bias


I don't have any bias for Minato btw. In fact, I think alive Itachi and Minato are relatively close in power (with a slight advantage towards Minato), an opinion that not many people on the NBD have. 



ThirdRidoku said:


> and then you left without responding back.


I actually never got the notification for your post.

I did gander through the thread after a while to see if you said anything and you did, but I lost interest by that point. Also because of the 3 main issues I had with your posting.



ThirdRidoku said:


> The same way you ran away from that Haku thread, even refusing to click on links to evidence, showing how close-minded and biased you are.


I ran away because we had the same opinion on the thread. I had no intention on reading a pointless text wall and responding to it with another pointless text wall.



ThirdRidoku said:


> even refusing to click on links to evidence


No. Don't do that. You literally gave me a link to a respect thread and expected me to thread through every inch of it and come back. I'm sorry, but I'm not a machine. If you have information, then bring it to the actual thread. Don't make me read through a bunch of stuff and get mad at me for not complying. I'm not @IpHr0z3nI. I don't enjoy reading as much as he does.



ThirdRidoku said:


> 1) not personal interpretation, it's what objectively happened


No, and any user on here attests to that to be honest.



ThirdRidoku said:


> 2) just your biased opinion.


The person who openly declares Itachi his favorite character and has largely controversial opinions on said character that no other Itachi "wanker" on this board would agree to is bashing ME for being biased. Spare me the nonsense. If this is genuinely your level of argumentation, then I'm done with this thread and any hope I have for you on Itachi related threads.



ThirdRidoku said:


> he weaved signs for kage bunshin while simultaneously throwing shuriken/distracting his opponents with shuriken.


Doing this from the point of view of slower characters doesn't equate to doing it in the point of view of Minato, let alone BM Minato.



ThirdRidoku said:


> 3) This is just stupid. Because every battle simulation is an imaginary scenario that you construct based on shown character feats, skills, and exp. and nothing I did was "imaginary", at all. Everything I said Itachi could do was based on things he already showed. In both part one and part 2, he weaved signs for kage bunshin while simultaneously throwing shuriken/distracting his opponents with shuriken. It's just one of the many ways he could respond to the situation.


No, because scenarios are tainted based on bias. This is very very elementary level shit kiddo. I could say that Minato throws an FTG kunai at Itachi, feints him, conjures a Kurama avatar, makes a Shadow Clone, then has Itachi fight his shadow clone and Kurama Avatar while he goes for the back and kills him. That's what imaginary scenarios look like. And they're not good. And you shouldn't use them if you want people to take you seriously.



ThirdRidoku said:


> You literally "imagined" scenarios you hypocrite:


If this is your critique on me, then you're clearly not understanding what I'm saying. Your imaginary scenarios consisted of Itachi doing several actions and YOU COMING UP WITH HIS WAY OF FIGHTING IN ORDER TO DEFEAT MINATO.

All I did was come up with creative ways that he could beat Itachi, which were LARGELY BASED ON MANGA FACTS.

RDS with Shadow Clones? This has canonically been used before by Hiruzen. Via basic Jutsu scaling, Minato can also do it.

9 Kurama Chakra Arms with a Rasengan? Chakra Arms can be created by Nine Tails JIns can they not? Logically, there are 9? Minato has  them right? They can also use , right? Okay. Good to know.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Its quite ironic, as two of the three things you listed here (bolded) are things Minato has never actually done on panel, but I still accepted them because they are things he could REASONABLY attempt.


Which he REASONABLY can attempt..

However, Itachi going ape shit on the board doing all sorts of complex movements without Minato realizing? Yeah, that shit isn't what I'd consider "reasonable". That's what I consider an imaginary scenario where you make Itachi do the fighting, largely based on your bias too.



ThirdRidoku said:


> I'm the one that can't contain their "bias".


I love it when people try to use their "bias" arguments on me as though it means anything. If you're sincerely trying to win a bias argument, then stop being a goddamn fool and making dumb claims while getting mad at ME for calling you out for the shit you say. 



ThirdRidoku said:


> Troll harder.


I'm assuming you're applying this to yourself? Good.


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## Hazuki (Oct 25, 2019)

itachi would have been a high kage level if it wasn't for his chakra level and* the bad effect of the mangekyo on his body and his eyes*

a full power itachi who mastered his mangekyo is already blind , very weak body , great pain mind  and slow reflex
anything other then that is called fanfic itachi


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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 26, 2019)

X III said:


> No. Don't do that. You literally gave me a link to a respect thread and expected me to thread through every inch of it and come back. I'm sorry, but I'm not a machine. If you have information, then bring it to the actual thread. Don't make me read through a bunch of stuff and get mad at me for not complying. I'm not @IpHr0z3nI. I don't enjoy reading as much as he does.




Never asked you to read the whole thread, just the OP, as it clearly outlined info that you ended up later asking for.




X III said:


> The person who openly declares Itachi his favorite character and has largely controversial opinions on said character that no other Itachi "wanker" on this board would agree to is bashing ME for being biased. Spare me the nonsense. If this is genuinely your level of argumentation, then I'm done with this thread and any hope I have for you on Itachi related threads.



This is irrelevant. I came to my conclusion through assessing the facts and defended it,  which you couldn't do which is why you called me biased lol, so I'm free to call you biased back. 



X III said:


> No, because scenarios are tainted based on bias. This is very very elementary level shit kiddo. I could say that Minato throws an FTG kunai at Itachi, feints him, conjures a Kurama avatar, makes a Shadow Clone, then has Itachi fight his shadow clone and Kurama Avatar while he goes for the back and kills him. That's what imaginary scenarios look like. And they're not good. And you shouldn't use them if you want people to take you seriously.



No, just more hypocrisy. All scenarios must be imagined because most characters have more than one way of approaching a scenario and most of these fights didn't happen in the manga. How the scenario *goes *depends purely on stats and skills, which we deduce from the manga period. I outlined to you very clearly in that thread why I believe Itachi has the skills and stats necessary to pull it off. I can say Madara blitz's and one-shots Kidomaru because that's exactly what he has shown to be able to do to someone who is far weaker than himself, i.e Kidomaru. Your scenario is inconsistent with the manga, because Itachi has knowledge on Minato and the skills to counter that strategy you mentioned.




X III said:


> Which he REASONABLY can attempt..
> 
> However, Itachi going ape shit on the board doing all sorts of complex movements without Minato realizing? Yeah, that shit isn't what I'd consider "reasonable". That's what I consider an imaginary scenario where you make Itachi do the fighting, largely based on your bias too.



Not at all, just bias leaking tough on your end. Itachi has shown the speed feats to do what I said he can do.  His handseal speed has always been fast even for sharingan users, but now his handseal speed is slow cause you don't have a counterargument otherwise? His Susano'o activates faster than Lightning can hit the ground and strikes faster than someone with top tier reflexes can even perieve, its the highest level of faster than the eye: 



X III said:


> stress this out because I know you don't agree with me on this, but at least imagine if you did) is arguing that the Earth is flat (i.e. you arguing that Itachi can beat Kaguya)?



Don't even go there. Flat earth theorists are objectively wrong in literally a dozen ways. It's very easy in fact to showcase that the earth is round. Nice try though. Vs I only need to drop one Scan to open a legitimate case as to why Itachi can win against Kaguya. The guy that lived 1000 years and is Akatsuki's information specialist and a person who watches fights for a living isn't a legitimate source, not an expert? He literally trolled the shinobi world, fooled Madara and Obito, was shown to be a combat type unlike his counterpart White Zetsu as he held his own against Mei and KCM Naruto for a bit, and it was  Black Zetsu literally said White Zetsu wasn't a combat type,  yet you sided with that other  Itachi downplayer. I guess you skimmed through that too. And don't even give me the ad homimem that Zetsu isn't a fighter, because I know for a dam sure you aren't a professional fighter of any kind yet you feel more qualified than me to speak on how fights work rofl.






X III said:


> That doesn't mean that every single opinion he holds is something that applies to me, especially in such large walls of text where all I did was skim through to get a general idea of what was being said instead of actually reading it coherently.



except it does. because you Skimmed over the faulty premises they used for their arguments yet still agree with them.


----------



## X III (Oct 27, 2019)

This will be my final reply to this thread.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Never asked you to read the whole thread, just the OP, as it clearly outlined info that you ended up later asking for.


Yes, but I expect you to bring your info *onto the thread where we're debating. *A simple summary or copy and paste would've sufficed, but you asked me to read an *brand new *textwall while dealing with another textwall at the same time and respond to both of them.



ThirdRidoku said:


> This is irrelevant.


No, it isn't. Bias by definition means a prejudice for or against a thing, person, or group. Your favoritism of Itachi is 100% a factor in your bias. If that isn't indicative of bias, I don't know what is.

Some people can have a favorite character and not be biased, but that visibly doesn't apply to you. That's the only way you can reach an opinion that even other people who love Itachi won't agree with.



ThirdRidoku said:


> I came to my conclusion through assessing the facts and defended it, which you couldn't do which is why you called me biased lol, so I'm free to call you biased back.


I called you biased because you are biased. That's all there is to it.



ThirdRidoku said:


> All scenarios must be imagined because most characters have more than one way of approaching a scenario and most of these fights didn't happen in the manga. How the scenario *goes *depends purely on stats and skills, which we deduce from the manga period.


That's the entire reason why you shouldn't use scenarios. You're literally making the fight go how you want it to and as much as you might claim your bias isn't a part of it, it clearly is.

A better way to go about things is looking at Jutsu, stats, etc. and seeing how they match up instead of making a scenario of how the fight will play out from beginning to end.



ThirdRidoku said:


> I outlined to you very clearly in that thread why I believe Itachi has the skills and stats necessary to pull it off.


No, not exactly. As far as I recall, you stated that Itachi had untraceable hand weaving speed because he could feint SM Kabuto and then applied it to BM Minato as well. That's not how it works. And the very fact that you believe that *Itachi *is too fast for *Minato *to deal with is absurd.

Not to mention, you literally came up with a complex maneuver for Itachi to win the fight, having to do with feinting Minato with Bunshins, throwing kunai, using ephemeral on him, etc. You are literally making him fight the way you want him to. As much as you might want to try to deny it, you're not the character. You can try to think all you want that you can understand just how the character will fight, but you can't. Not even the author knows that because authors are inconsistent 99% of the time, and Kishimoto qualifies for that 99%.

And the reason why I most hate scenarios is because they are literally impossible to respond to. Okay, here's my scenario:

Minato activates KCM. He then throws a Rasengan at Itachi with his Chakra Arm that Itachi reflects with the Yata Mirror. Then he goes from behind and Itachi stabs him with a kunai, but WAIT. Minato was actually a clone all along! Minato throws a kunai at Itachi's feet and warps there, then slams 9 Chakra Arms from underneath the ground into Itachi. Itachi's actually a clone, but then Minato finds the real Itachi using his sensory and blitzes him. GG.

How would you respond to that? The thing is that I'm controlling the movements of not only Minato, but also Itachi. If you want to respond to my scenario, you have to address every single detail and explain why you disagree, which would take a fortnight and a half to do.

Another example? Let's say you watch a Death Battle and don't agree with something that they say regarding a match up. Would you tackle on their evidence and statistics, or would you tackle on their made up scenarios?

Long story short, keep it to statistics and not scenarios. I'm fine with you coming up with Itachi being faster than Minato in hand speed (no matter how bs I think it is), but then making it into a scenario takes all fun out of the debate. And my feelings towards our debate attests to that.



ThirdRidoku said:


> I can say Madara blitz's and one-shots Kidomaru because that's exactly what he has shown to be able to do to someone who is far weaker than himself, i.e Kidomaru.


You can, because movement/combat speed is an individual category and is a big deal that can affect the outcome of an entire fight. That's the only type of scenario that I like because it's concise and it's a single statistic. It doesn't take Jutsu and other stats into consideration because an overwhelming amount of speed renders all of that null and void (under most situations, anyway).

It's not the same thing as literally imagining the entire fight from beginning to end under neutral circumstances where neither character A nor B can blitz each other and where you look at every single available thing in their arsenal.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Not at all, just bias leaking tough on your end. Itachi has shown the speed feats to do what I said he can do. His handseal speed has always been fast even for sharingan users, but now his handseal speed is slow cause you don't have a counterargument otherwise? His Susano'o activates faster than Lightning can hit the ground and strikes faster than someone with top tier reflexes can even perieve, its the highest level of faster than the eye:


I don't want to get into another debate with you, but you do realize that your argument is literally insinuating that Itachi can outdo Minato in speed, right? You don't see anything wrong with that at all?



ThirdRidoku said:


> Don't even go there. Flat earth theorists are objectively wrong in literally a dozen ways. It's very easy in fact to showcase that the earth is round. Nice try though. Vs I only need to drop one Scan to open a legitimate case as to why Itachi can win against Kaguya. The guy that lived 1000 years and is Akatsuki's information specialist and a person who watches fights for a living isn't a legitimate source, not an expert? He literally trolled the shinobi world, fooled Madara and Obito, was shown to be a combat type unlike his counterpart White Zetsu as he held his own against Mei and KCM Naruto for a bit, and it was Black Zetsu literally said White Zetsu wasn't a combat type, yet you sided with that other Itachi downplayer. I guess you skimmed through that too. And don't even give me the ad homimem that Zetsu isn't a fighter, because I know for a dam sure you aren't a professional fighter of any kind yet you feel more qualified than me to speak on how fights work rofl.


Sigh, you missed the entire point of what I was trying to convey. I'm not trying to get into a debate with you. The whole point of my passage there was to explain to you why I sided with the person going against you.

In *MY EYES*, your opinion on Itachi vs Kaguya is ludicrous. YOU MAY NOT THINK THAT IT IS, BUT I DO. That is why I didn't side with you. It's very simple, my friend.

On a side note:



ThirdRidoku said:


> ad homimem that Zetsu isn't a fighter


How is this even an ad hominem?



ThirdRidoku said:


> except it does. because you Skimmed over the faulty premises they used for their arguments yet still agree with them.


I skimmed over them, and yet I still had a general idea of what he was trying to convey.

Just because his premises are faulty in your eyes doesn't mean anything. In my eyes, they made sense. And that's all that matters, because you are questioning why *I *side with @IpHr0z3nI.


As I said earlier, this is my last response to this thread. And I don't want this to be a cop out, but you're a nice debater. I just don't like to deal with you on Itachi related threads. That's my conclusion.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Nov 2, 2019)

X III said:


> Yes, but I expect you to bring your info *onto the thread where we're debating. *A simple summary or copy and paste would've sufficed, but you asked me to read an *brand new *textwall while dealing with another textwall at the same time and respond to both of them.



Nonsense. The information is exactly the same. and it was brought into the thread, don't lie. It was linked directly to you via URL.




X III said:


> Just because his premises are faulty in your eyes doesn't mean anything. In my eyes, they made sense. And that's all that matters, because you are questioning why *I *side with @IpHr0z3nI.



Yeah, Kyuubi totally didn't have a sharingan during the nine tails attack LOLOL. You're just as dishonest as that other user, which is why they make sense to you.




X III said:


> In *MY EYES*, your opinion on Itachi vs Kaguya is ludicrous. YOU MAY NOT THINK THAT IT IS, BUT I DO. That is why I didn't side with you. It's very simple, my friend.




We default to what the manga tells us. You're opinion doesn't follow the manga, so it must involve a fanboy interpretation, or you clearly know things that I don't. The difference is, I cited you evidence for why my opinion is what it is, an argument based on portrayal and features. you're only counter argument was that I MUST have cognitive bias simply because you saw me say Itachi was my favorite character LOL.



X III said:


> And I don't want this to be a cop ou





And it is a cop out. Which just proves my conclusion. Biased.... 



X III said:


> I don't want to get into another debate with you, but you do realize that your argument is literally insinuating that Itachi can outdo Minato in speed, right? You don't see anything wrong with that at all?



Oh Lord. So now you suddenly don't know the difference between combat speed and running speed now. This is the bias I'm talking about. Minato is faster than Itachi when it comes to moving from point A to B via shunshin or FTG. However, Itachi has the reactions to deal with that, he reacted to Kirin. Itachi's handseal speed is also on par with Minato's speed, objectively. Sharingan users literally are optimized to track handseals and not even the EMS can see it.  Never once did I ever bring up Itachi's point A to B Movement speed, but nice attempt at putting words in my mouth.




X III said:


> That's the entire reason why you shouldn't use scenarios. You're literally making the fight go how you want it to and as much as you might claim your bias isn't a part of it, it clearly is.
> 
> A better way to go about things is looking at Jutsu, stats, etc. and seeing how they match up instead of making a scenario of how the fight will play out from beginning to end.



No, because I never said the scenario was the end all be all. Just one possibility. And don't play dumb. I literally stated that I uses the skills and stats to design the scenarios in the first place. So there is no bias involved lmao. I start with portrayal, then skills and stats.



X III said:


> No, not exactly. As far as I recall, you stated that Itachi had untraceable hand weaving speed because he could feint SM Kabuto and then applied it to BM Minato as well. That's not how it works. And the very fact that you believe that *Itachi *is too fast for *Minato *to deal with is absurd.



This is just flat out dishonest. There was way more to my argument that. 



X III said:


> No, it isn't. Bias by definition means a prejudice for or against a thing, person, or group. Your favoritism of Itachi is 100% a factor in your bias. If that isn't indicative of bias, I don't know what is.
> 
> Some people can have a favorite character and not be biased, *but that visibly doesn't apply to you*. That's the only way you can reach an opinion that even other people who love Itachi won't agree with.




Such childish logic....  so because you ignore manga facts I MUST BE BIASED.  You haven't proved at all that I have any cognitive bias whatsoever. I don't give a dam about these other "Itachi lovers" you speak of, and to generalize an entire fanbase based on such a small sample size is stupid anyway. It's pretty obvious I don't care. For example, @Sapherosth  literally agreed with parts of my arguments, but that doesn't change the fact that I think he is also biased in  a few ways against Itachi with no evidence whatsoever to support their arguments. I know plenty of people who don't even like Itachi like that but still aren't so biased like you are as to ignore direct manga portrayal like in the scan I showed you, . Expand your horizons beyond what you see on one website bud.


----------



## X III (Nov 2, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Nonsense. The information is exactly the same. and it was brought into the thread, don't lie. It was linked directly to you via URL.


I'm telling you to bring the information onto the thread where we're debating at. I'm not going to read the ENTIRE goddamn OP. Stop linking me text walls and assuming that I'm going to read through them.

This is the thread that you sent me:



*Literally expects me to respond to another text wall and gets mad at me for not doing so.

If you want me to respond to something, then BRING IT ONTO THE THREAD WHERE WE'RE DEBATING AT. And make sure to summarize your points. I'm not going to read through all that shit unless it's neatly packed in a couple of paragraphs.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Yeah, Kyuubi totally didn't have a sharingan during the nine tails attack LOLOL. You're just as dishonest as that other user, which is why they make sense to you.


Keep being ignorant and ignoring what I'm saying. I literally said in my fucking post that I didn't read EVERY SINGLE FUCKING THING HE SAYS and I DON'T AGREE WITH EVERYTHING HE SAYS EITHER. I agree with his stance, but not all of his fucking arguments.



ThirdRidoku said:


> We default to what the manga tells us. You're opinion doesn't follow the manga, so it must involve a fanboy interpretation, or you clearly know things that I don't. The difference is, I cited you evidence for why my opinion is what it is, an argument based on portrayal and features. you're only counter argument was that I MUST have cognitive bias simply because you saw me say Itachi was my favorite character LOL.


No it isn't, you dishonest fuck. I said that you're biased because Itachi is your self-claimed favorite character and you have stated multiple things that not even the biggest Itachi fanboys on this forum agree with.



ThirdRidoku said:


> You're opinion doesn't follow the manga


Literally fucking how? What is one thing that I've ever said regarding Itachi that doesn't follow the Manga? And don't site shit that @IpHr0z3nI said as though it applies to me too. 



ThirdRidoku said:


> And it is a cop out. Which just proves my conclusion. Biased....


And I like how you get mad at me for SUPPOSEDLY ignoring Manga facts when you yourself have done so as well. 

Remember when you agreed that outliers shouldn't be taken seriously? That is literally you ignoring facts in the Manga because they don't align with your belief system. This Manga isn't created by some all knowing deity. It's created by a human who makes mistakes. Its "facts" in feats and statements have been contradicted before.

Stop acting like you have some high ground over me when it comes to following the Manga. 



ThirdRidoku said:


> So now you suddenly don't know the difference between combat speed and running speed now.


Yes I do, thank you very much.



ThirdRidoku said:


> However, Itachi has the reactions to deal with that, he reacted to Kirin.


Cool. Never denied this.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Itachi's handseal speed is also on par with Minato's speed, objectively.


No, it fucking isn't. Stop adding that word to your own OPINIONS on this Manga.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Sharingan users literally are optimized to track handseals and not even the EMS can see it.


And yet SM Kabuto can blitz Edo Itachi.

Now let's see what shitty argument you pull out of your ass here against my Manga "FACTS". 

You're looking at Itachi's feats with a rose tinted glass filled with Itachi's sperm. That's literally what you're doing here, and you're getting mad at me for looking at it in a different light. You are the definition of a sensitive cunt.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Never once did I ever bring up Itachi's point A to B Movement speed, but nice attempt at putting words in my mouth.


Your "dishonesty" is really projecting here buddy. A word of advice: Don't make a word your fucking catchphrase if you yourself imitate said word at nearly every point of your NBD life.

I never stated that you claimed Itachi's movement speed was greater than Minato. I shed light on you claiming Itachi can beat Minato in SPEED (a very fucking generic word, and I never added the word "movement" to it). Here's the quote:



X III said:


> I don't want to get into another debate with you, but you do realize that your argument is literally insinuating that Itachi can outdo Minato in speed, right? You don't see anything wrong with that at all?



This was in direct response to your quote:



ThirdRidoku said:


> Itachi has shown the speed feats to do what I said he can do. His handseal speed has always been fast even for sharingan users, but now his handseal speed is slow cause you don't have a counterargument otherwise? His Susano'o activates faster than Lightning can hit the ground and strikes faster than someone with top tier reflexes can even perieve, its the highest level of faster than the eye:



So fucking how do you think that I was referring to movement speed there? Do you think I have the reading comprehension of a goddamn 2nd grader? The speed I was referring to here was very obviously hand speed, because that's what your argument was in the thread. 



ThirdRidoku said:


> No, because I never said the scenario was the end all be all. Just one possibility. And don't play dumb. I literally stated that I uses the skills and stats to design the scenarios in the first place. So there is no bias involved lmao. I start with portrayal, then skills and stats.


And I never said that you said it was an end all be all either. I was saying that I don't like scenarios because you make them go how you want them to.

You may think that there's no bias involved, but there visibly fucking is. 



ThirdRidoku said:


> This is just flat out dishonest. There was way more to my argument that.


And you're also either flat out dishonest or are illiterate because I said in my post that was as far as I COULD REMEMBER. Please tell me your goddamn argument if I got it wrong then, Mr. Dishonest.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Such childish logic.... so because you ignore manga facts I MUST BE BIASED. You haven't proved at all that I have any cognitive bias whatsoever.


Yeah I have, and I like how you think that I actually have to "prove" that you're biased as though you don't drag your bias around everywhere you go, leaving everybody on this forum to see it as a spectacle. 

You truly are delusional.



ThirdRidoku said:


> For example, @Sapherosth literally agreed with parts of my arguments, but that doesn't change the fact that I think he is also biased in a few ways against Itachi with no evidence whatsoever to support their arguments.


Oh boy, this is a new level of head assery. Are you claiming that an Itachi fanboy is biased against Itachi?



ThirdRidoku said:


> I know plenty of people who don't even like Itachi like that but still aren't so biased like you are as to ignore direct manga portrayal like in the scan I showed you,


You do realize that the scan can be debunked, just like how any argument can be debunked, correct? Your whole belief on how Manga facts are objective or whatever really needs to die. It isn't helping you at all.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Expand your horizons beyond what you see on one website bud.


I already have, and what I do realize is that the amount of people who believe Itachi is stronger than Kaguya is abysmally small. Now are you going to claim that everybody is biased against Itachi? Or is it possible that people have different opinions than you in the minority?


----------



## Shazam (Nov 2, 2019)

People have a hard to getting to the point. You don't need 1,000 words just to tell me that someone is fast


----------



## Cognitios (Nov 2, 2019)

Itachi is a high kage because he is shown to be easily above the Sannin, whom I have as mid kage.


----------



## Shazam (Nov 2, 2019)

Cognitios said:


> Itachi is a high kage because he is shown to be easily above a Sannin, whom I have as mid kage.



Fixed that for ya champ


----------



## Cognitios (Nov 2, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Fixed that for ya champ


Do you not have the Sannin grouped together in the same tier?


----------



## Shazam (Nov 2, 2019)

Cognitios said:


> Do you not have the Sannin grouped together in the same tier?



The same tier, sure. Itachi beating one Sannin who relies heavily on his WSP and body modifications to regen due to having abilities which explicitly ignore those advantages is why Itachi beats Orochimaru mid diff or worse. That doesnt and shouldnt automatically apply to Jiraiya for example unless ABC logic is in use


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Nov 2, 2019)

X III said:


> *I already have, and what I do realize is that the amount of people who believe Itachi is stronger than Kaguya is abysmally small.* Now are you going to claim that everybody is biased against Itachi? Or is it possible that people have different opinions than you in the minority?



 Citation for the bolded? Right, you have none. Come back to me when you compile statistics on this subject that actually encompass the entire narutofanbase. Include every single person  in real life who has watched Naruto and people from other websites; good luck. And when you are done, it still doesn't mean a dam thing, as I don't subscribe to ad  arguments anyway.

The problem isn't different opinions. Some opinions are more justified/credible than others if they are better supported by* facts*, which is the whole concept of an* argument*, but at the end of the day its still opinionated. I don't mind different arguments, as long as it comes from unbiased assessment of the facts and doesn't contain hypocrisy or any logical fallacies... 


"A given opinion may deal with * matters in which there is no conclusive finding*, *or it may deal with facts* which are sought to be disputed by the  that .
Distinguishing  from opinion is that facts are verifiable, i.e. can be agreed to by the consensus of experts. An example is: "United States of America was involved in the ," versus "United States of America was right to get involved in the Vietnam War". An opinion may be supported by facts and principles, in which case it becomes an .
Different people may draw opposing conclusions (opinions) even if they agree on the same set of facts. Opinions rarely change without new arguments being presented. It can be  that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another, by analyzing the supporting arguments.

In casual use, the term _opinion_ may be the result of a person's , , particular feelings, beliefs, and . The term may also refer to unsubstantiated information, in contrast to  and fact. 
"




X III said:


> I'm telling you to bring the information onto the thread where we're debating at. *I'm not going to read the ENTIRE goddamn OP*. Stop linking me text walls and assuming that I'm going to read through them.



Nonsense. The information was brought to you directly and the entire OP contained the relevant info, just not in the format you want rofl, don't get it twisted. The information in that 'textwall' answered questions you ended bringing up in the thread we were debating to begin with. Like something as simple as the chapters where Haku reacts to Gai and Lee. Something as simple as clarifying the mechanics of Haku's Crystal ice mirror technique.  You see it as a textwall, but in reality, you are okay with going back and forth with more posts (but with smaller word counts) than just simply reading one 'textwall' when its the exact same thing and getting it over with it. If you don't want to read the evidence, then I take it as a concession and proof of bias. Cause I clicked *on your links and addressed them*, and didn't make excuses to avoid addressing your argument rofl, even if I disagree, but you intentionally were being hurtful and avoiding the argument. I don't owe you a summary of any kind, because you lack the humility to sit down and read someone's argument, and when I did attempt to summarize (which I always do when I feel an extended analysis isn't necessary), it wasn't enough for you anyway since you couldn't even bothered to educate yourself on your own in the matter by looking up the fights for yourself. Disagreements aren't always static, that's why we debate in the first place because by being open minded your views can change. But in the very first line of this quote I have of you (bolded), you showed how closed minded you are to reading the entirety of my evidence




X III said:


> So fucking how do you think that I was referring to movement speed there? Do you think I have the reading comprehension of a goddamn 2nd grader? The speed I was referring to here was very obviously hand speed, because that's what your argument was in the thread.



It was either you had very poor reading comprehension of the manga or you were talking about movement/travel speed. Its now clear its the former. You are even more biased than I thought. Minato has basically zero handseal speed feats, but now you are scaling his speed feats via Shunshin and FTG (which have no correlation to handseal speed whatsoever) to his handseal speed rofl, when Itachi has actual character statements AND features backing his abnormally fast handseals. Minato is someone who revolves his fighting style behind rasengan, and FTG, two jutsus that don't really require any handseals at all and even when they do, its typically just a seal of confrontation, so there absolutely no reason at all to believe his handseals are remotely as fast as Itachi's when he doesn't train them regularly to begin with. And that wasn't even my my main point. Minato's reflexes aren't greatly superior to that of an EMS user or  Perfect Sage, he only has V1 Ayy reflexes according to Cee, which 3 tomoe FKS Sasuke could match with his sharingan with some difficulty.  Reflexes and speed are two different physical attributes. And on top of that, he still doesn't have precogniton or kinetic vision the way sharingan users do, so no Itachi's handseals are fast enough that Itachi can cast  technique(S) depending on the number of seals required against Minato. Kakashi's  reflexes have not improved at all canonically, because he said himself after losing sharingan he no longer had the reflexes to use chidori, until Obito gifted him a new pair of sharingan. That same Kakashi can keep up with V2 Jins in the war arc and couldn't percieve Itachi's handseals. Same goes for an EMS user who in an earlier arc  could react to V1 Bee's fastest punch with his 3 tomoe sharingan, yet can't see Itachi's handseals with that same 3 tomoe sharingan.







X III said:


> And yet SM Kabuto can blitz Edo Itachi.
> 
> Now let's see what shitty argument you pull out of your ass here against my Manga "FACTS".
> 
> You're looking at Itachi's feats with a rose tinted glass filled with Itachi's sperm. That's literally what you're doing here, and you're getting mad at me for looking at it in a different light. You are the definition of a sensitive cunt.




No, you are behaving like a cunt here, and that's why I am getting mad at you. The only two times I have been mad at you ever is with this Itachi nonsense and in second place is that haku thread, as its the only two times ever where you have ever flat out ignored evidence and use poor debating strategies. You're best arguments here are literally ad hominem, ad popuulum, and then selective analysis of feats. Speaking of selective analysis, lets compare:

 Shurado also "blitz'd" Sage Jiraiya too after announcing he was behind him. Shurado> SM Jiraiya now? This is how I know you're biased. You ignored Kabuto *saying Itachi can dodge Muki Tensei( which is the fastest and widest AOE attack Kabuto showed) in a context where he isn't focused on protecting Sasuke*.. You ignored Itachi *clashing evenly in taijutsu with Kabuto *earlier in the fight:



But instead of being *objective and unbiased*,  you look at one scenario out of context *where he let his guard down and defense down *and was clearly concentrating on the izanami, in order  to desperately showcase a supposed antifeat, when in reality we clearly see Itachi's* eye going white *during that sequence and we were already told multiple times in the canon that Edo Tensei have the option of sacrificing their body in order to achieve progress in battles. Itachi was clone feinting Kabuto left and right won that fight and changed Kabuto's destiny, and not ONCE did he use Totsuka or Yata, the only two things stated to make him invincible. Nice try though, as I never said Itachi was invincible without Totsuka and Yata being wielded.




X III said:


> No it isn't, you dishonest fuck. I said that you're biased because Itachi is your self-claimed favorite character and you have stated multiple things that not even the biggest Itachi fanboys on this forum agree with.



Keep up the salty ad hominem and ad populum bud. You haven't offered a  SINGLE legitimate argument in this thread that debunks any of my claims. And that says a lot. Because you did a great job stalemating me in the A3 durability thread. But now you are too clouded by bias so you're only argument now is "hurdur other "Itachi fanboys" don't agree with me, hurdur Itachi is my favorite character therefore all of my cited evidence and arguments are invalid". It's piss poor debating lol. I don't give a dam what other "Itachi fanboys " say, I have my own reasoning for why I say what I say and I can cite evidence from the manga to back it and I can think critically without relying purely on others and that is all I need to build a credible argument. You feel strong because you have greater numbers on your side on this particular forum, which is cowardly and shows you can't debate using the full extent of facts and data to come to your conclusion.




X III said:


> You do realize that the scan can be debunked, just like how any argument can be debunked, correct? Your whole belief on how Manga facts are objective or whatever really needs to die. It isn't helping you at all.




ROFL, if you spent more time actually debunking with facts and evidence than throwing around ad homimem and ad populum arguments, maybe I could actually be convinced.  But know all the common counterarguments and how to shut them down over years of debating people like you.
as a preview:
-Retcon BZ, when he recognized Susano'o on Itachi. when even if he is a retconned character, he was still the information specialist for Akatsuki  and always used to give background info on characters and abilities for the Akatsuki and the audience.
-people still mixing up thought bubbles between Black Zetsu and White zetsu, when the thought bubble isn't at all indicative of whose speaking. How you know BZ is speaking is based on the context and the special font and bolded text that is almost always exclusive to him.

You simply are too biased to engage in an intellectually honest debate on this topic and simply resort purely to ad homimen and ad populum, which already tells me the quality of your 'actual' arguments are poor. If they aren't then prove me wrong. Notice how I am actually open to debating you despite the disagreement, even though it was you who abandoned our debate early this year. even though its you who said multiple times you weren't interested in debating. When it was you who didn't refute any of the arguments I made in the past, yet come in here talking about how I can't "contain my bias". And don't even turn around and be a hypocrite here too, since you believe that my assertions backed  Black Zetsu's statements on Itachi as well as his showcased feats are somehow equatable to arguments made by flat earth theorists, who are ACTUALLY FACTUALLY wrong, meaning their arguments aren't up for debate to begin with. An argument must be supported by facts. If your argument is in factual to begin with (earth is flat), then there is no argument to be made. It's like me arguing the Sun doesn't help plant grows when we clearly can observe that it does. Your opinion that my intepretation is a fanboy interpenetration isn't an objective manga fact either,  so lets not even go there.

 A classic case of your bias  one is that Killer Bee & Itachi genjutsu clash. We clearly see that Itachi captured Bee in genjutsu shortly after throwing shuriken. From there, we see in the real world that Killer Bee had released the tentacle from underground, because AFTER the genjutsu was dispelled, we *still see the tentacle coming out of Bee and the hole in the ground* he created when grabbing up at the faux Itachi:



Killer Bee was literally attacking an imaginary Itachi up until Itachi dispersed his illusionary self into crows( the same thing Itachi did after Hebi Sasuke thought he caught the real Itachi in their 3 tomoe genjutsu clash), which is the only reason Killer Bee realized he was in genjutsu. But you were too biased to understand something as simple as that.





X III said:


> Oh boy, this is a new level of head assery. Are you claiming that an Itachi fanboy is biased against Itachi?


Or he isn't an itachi fanboy to begin with. Or that even if he is an itachi fanboy,* maybe he fanboys other characters even more that he *doesn't want Itachi to be able to beat. since when  do people only have one favorite character? Common sense here.





X III said:


> And you're also either flat out dishonest or are illiterate because I said in my post that was as far as I COULD REMEMBER. Please tell me your goddamn argument if I got it wrong then, Mr. Dishonest.



All my arguments are still present in the very thread you linked, so there is zero reason to rely on headcanon. Simply asking for further clarification would have shown you were open minded, but alas you weren't being open minded.  Maybe you will now, but I'm not gonna address everything all in one post, as even I have limits, andyou already have trouble reading the entirety of my arguments as is.




X III said:


> And I never said that you said it was an end all be all either. I was saying that I don't like scenarios because you make them go how you want them to.
> 
> You may think that there's no bias involved, but there visibly fucking is.



No, because I model ALL my debates with scenarios in mind and so does everyone else. You do it on a smaller scale whenever you claim Character X will dodge Y attack or Character Y would be smart enough to use Strategy Z against Character R  because they have knowledge of Character's R's abilities and are smart enough to do so... etc. Imagined scenarios aren't the problem at all, because if the stats and skills were carefully analyzed, the scenario will reflect that, and the scenario(s) always uses canon fights and portrayal  as reference and takes into account the fact that people and battles aren't static and repititive. Location matters, mindset matters, and people learn from both victories and losses so you must actively take all those things into account when looking at stats and skills. You clearly have no role-play fighting experience. The only way the scenario is biased is if the stats and skills and other variables weren't taken into consideration, which can happen if someone just analyzed the manga incorrectly or not carefully, its not necessarily indicative of bias. Just because you disagree with how Minato's skills and stats match up with Itachi's doesn't mean anything unless you can PROVE it, which you aren't gonna do when all your arguments are mostly logical fallacies.




X III said:


> Keep being ignorant and ignoring what I'm saying. I literally said in my fucking post that I didn't read EVERY SINGLE FUCKING THING HE SAYS and I DON'T AGREE WITH EVERYTHING HE SAYS EITHER. I agree with his stance, but not all of his fucking arguments.



And yet his stance is questionable to begin,  and many of the things he says to justify it are also incorrect, and you admit to skimming it and STILL AGREE with his stance, *and even said he justified it better than I did*, unreal. I literally presented ZERO blatant, obvious misinformation in my arguments. He used anime to justify arguments even when the anime isn't canon and even directly contradicts some of the things we are told in the manga regarding the Uchiha massacre ROFL.


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## Grinningfox (Nov 2, 2019)

That is one long post


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