# Kimimaro vs. Part I Kabuto



## Ersa (Jan 4, 2014)

*Location*: Sannin Battlefield
*Mindset*: IC
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Distance*: 15m
*Restrictions/Conditions:*
- Kimimaro is healthy.

*Scenario 2:* Edo Kimimaro vs. Part II Kabuto


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 4, 2014)

How do you propose Kabuto could win or kill Kimi?


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## Alex Payne (Jan 4, 2014)

Kimimaro-wankers are going to rip me apart. Oh, well.

Chakra scalpel is a good tool to use against Kimi's multiple layers of bones. It targets internal organs similarly  to Jyuken. So unless Kimi's bones completely block chakra Chakra Scalpel is going to work just fine. *If* connected. Connecting is the problem - not only Kimimaro can spam offensive bones limiting direct contact with his body - he is also a good deal superior in CQC and will be countering Kabuto's attack with his own. Luckily Kabuto has his regen. So imo Kabuto is at a disadvantage but still capable of winning. If you allow prep and use another location - with his collection of corpses Kabuto can create a good trap which should boost his chances of critical/sneaky Chakra Scalpel.

Overall giving it to Kimi with those stipulations. Kabuto is on the higher level but Kimi is a bad match up for him. Imo.

Didn't get Scenario 2. Kabuto with White Snake powers mastered murders Kimi even without SM. Pre-WS Kabuto is fucked.


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## RedChidori (Jan 4, 2014)

Kimimaro stomps during the First scenario. Kabuto would get pierced by a multitude of Kimi's bones if he tries to get close and go for a chakra scalpel. Kimi won't even need to use CS2, heck he'd probably kill Kabuto in base with his Bone Sword. But if Kabuto manages to land a decent hit on Kimimaro while he's in base, he'll have to resort to CS1 and kill Kabuto there in that state. The first scenario is really just in Kimi's favor since he's healthy and Kabuto sucks in Taijutsu.

Now scenario 2 is different. I don't know what you mean by Part II Kabuto, but I'm assuming you're talking about Snake Sage Kabuto. If that's the case, he stomps Edo Kimimaro. If you only mean the Kabuto that recently took Oro's cells when he confronted Naruto, then I say Kimi should take it more times than not.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 4, 2014)

Kimimaro should win against Part I Kabuto mid-difficulty. His Taijutsu is too good, but his speed is actually significantly better than Kabuto's. 

I'm assuming Part II Kabuto refers to Kabutomaru without SM. In which case, I'd favor Kabuto.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 4, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Kimimaro-wankers are going to rip me apart. Oh, well.
> 
> Chakra scalpel is a good tool to use against Kimi's multiple layers of bones. It targets internal organs similarly  to Jyuken. So unless Kimi's bones completely block chakra Chakra Scalpel is going to work just fine. *If* connected. Connecting is the problem - not only Kimimaro can spam offensive bones limiting direct contact with his body - he is also a good deal superior in CQC and will be countering Kabuto's attack with his own. Luckily Kabuto has his regen. So imo Kabuto is at a disadvantage but still capable of winning. If you allow prep and use another location - with his collection of corpses Kabuto can create a good trap which should boost his chances of critical/sneaky Chakra Scalpel.
> 
> ...



My problem is that P1 Kabuto's scalpels had trouble penetrating deep into flesh, and that Kimi seems to be able to uproot nerves and flesh and make it better.  But child Kabuto's chakra scalpel feats seem better than his P1 adult versions, and  I'm not sure if that kind of regen is really supposed to be an accessory power to his kekkai genkai, or something we're supposed to ignore like how his eyeballs didn't get crushed by Gaara's sand, because only his bone density and durability was ever called attention to.

My other question is how good Kabuto's regeneration really is.  I'm sure he can tank a normal stab to the gut in exchange for scalpels, because he did that to Tsunade, but would he just instantly die if he got sufficiently skewered?


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## Risyth (Jan 4, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> *My problem is that P1 Kabuto's scalpels had trouble penetrating deep into flesh*, and that Kimi seems to be able to uproot nerves and flesh and make it better.  But child Kabuto's chakra scalpel feats seem better than his P1 adult versions, and  I'm not sure if that kind of regen is really supposed to be an accessory power to his kekkai genkai, or something we're supposed to ignore like how his eyeballs didn't get crushed by Gaara's sand, because only his bone density and durability was ever called attention to.
> 
> My other question is how good Kabuto's regeneration really is.  I'm sure he can tank a normal stab to the gut in exchange for scalpels, because he did that to Tsunade, but would he just instantly die if he got sufficiently skewered?



When exactly did he have trouble?


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## Alex Payne (Jan 4, 2014)

He had troubles reaching specific vitals due to Tsunade's massive boobs iirc. He reached Naruto's heart while getting Rasengan'd - that's a pretty good feat.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 4, 2014)

How would Kabuto go about hitting Kimimaro's torso though? With just Dance of the Pines he was able to take out every single 0TK Naruto clone without taking a single hit.  And the numbers were massive.. With Dance of the Willow he never gets hit ever. His bones are too hard for Chakra scalpel.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 4, 2014)

Part 1 0TK horde are fodders to skilled Jonins. Kabuto kept up with Tsunade who while drunk and using just one finger humiliated Naruto.


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## Risyth (Jan 4, 2014)

Lee did it....


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 4, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Part 1 0TK horde are fodders to skilled Jonins. Kabuto kept up with Tsunade who while drunk and using just one finger humiliated Naruto.



Tsunade was not as fast as Kimimaro and he also used a soldier pill when she started running out of breath. 



Risyth said:


> Lee did it....



As soon as Kimimaro got serious, he blocked a gated Lee's kick dead in his tracks with his bones. Lee is also faster and better at Taijutsu than Kabuto.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 4, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Tsunade was not as fast as Kimimaro and he also used a soldier pill when she started running out of breath.


 So? I was arguing about Part 1 Naruto in KN0 being a threat to skilled Jonins. He wasn't. Kimimaro owning him isn't anything special in the grand scheme of things. Kabuto held his own against Tsunade before she exhausted herself. And Tsunade is superior to Kimimaro in taijutsu.



Master Sephiroth said:


> As soon as Kimimaro got serious, he blocked a gated Lee's kick dead in his tracks with his bones. Lee is also faster and better at Taijutsu than Kabuto.



Weakened out-of-surgery Lee being better than Kabuto in CQC? Not so sure about that. Drunken Fist excluded obviously.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 4, 2014)

alex payne said:


> So? I was arguing about Part 1 Naruto in KN0 being a threat to skilled Jonins. He wasn't. Kimimaro owning him isn't anything special in the grand scheme of things. Kabuto held his own against Tsunade before she exhausted herself. And Tsunade is superior to Kimimaro in taijutsu.



Both have a 5 in Taijutsu so even if Tsunade is better, Kimimaro still earned a max 5. Even if Tsunade is better at Taijutsu, she doesn't have a KKG that aids her Taijutsu like Kimimaro does. His bones make it ridiculously difficult to get close in a Taijutsu fight if he uses Dance of the Willow. 0TK Naruto was still pretty strong though. Of course, nothing to upper Jounins. But still, he took down those numbers without a scratch. Not even Gaara could handle that with some of his Jinchuriki forms against Base Naruto. And Naruto was better than that from the Chuunin Exams till the Retrieval Arc. 0TK gave him the increase of getting owned and predicted to blitzing 2 Tomoe Sasuke. 

The entire fight except the very beginning was off panel until the soldier pill came out. For all we know, he could have just been avoiding her the whole time. In fact, that is very much indicated since he didn't even use Chakra Scalpel till then. He'll have a much harder time doing such to Kimimaro.




> Weakened out-of-surgery Lee being better than Kabuto in CQC? Not so sure about that. Drunken Fist excluded obviously.



I don't know how much stock you put in the databook, but the second databook (Konoha Invasion till the end of Part I) places Lee's speed in the same tier and his Taijutsu as even better than the Chuunin Exams. Gaara did note that Lee's movements were slower than his Chuunin Exams battle but the databook indicates that he was still in roughly the same level of speed. And don't forget that he stopped a Gated Lee without even flinching. 

Lee specializes in Taijutsu and has the Strong Fist style under his belt. Kabuto doesn't specialize in Taijutsu, so it's not difficult to believe he is not as good as Lee in CQC.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 4, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Both have a 5 in Taijutsu so even if Tsunade is better, Kimimaro still earned a max 5. Even if Tsunade is better at Taijutsu, she doesn't have a KKG that aids her Taijutsu like Kimimaro does. His bones make it ridiculously difficult to get close in a Taijutsu fight if he uses Dance of the Willow. 0TK Naruto was still pretty strong though. Of course, nothing to upper Jounins. But still, he took down those numbers without a scratch. Not even Gaara could handle that with some of his Jinchuriki forms against Base Naruto. And Naruto was better than that from the Chuunin Exams till the Retrieval Arc. 0TK gave him the increase of getting owned and predicted to blitzing 2 Tomoe Sasuke.
> 
> The entire fight except the very beginning was off panel until the soldier pill came out. For all we know, he could have just been avoiding her the whole time. In fact, that is very much indicated since he didn't even use Chakra Scalpel till then. He'll have a much harder time doing such to Kimimaro.


My original point was that stomping mad KN0 Naruto who is simply using TKB isn't even near Kabuto's performance against Tsunade. Yes, trickery and soldier pill was involved. But it is still several times more impressive than owning fodder clones. Considering Base Naruto vs drunk Tsunade's finger.





Master Sephiroth said:


> I don't know how much stock you put in the databook, but the second databook (Konoha Invasion till the end of Part I) places Lee's speed in the same tier and his Taijutsu as even better than the Chuunin Exams. Gaara did note that Lee's movements were slower than his Chuunin Exams battle but the databook indicates that he was still in roughly the same level of speed. And don't forget that he stopped a Gated Lee without even flinching.
> 
> Lee specializes in Taijutsu and has the Strong Fist style under his belt. Kabuto doesn't specialize in Taijutsu, so it's not difficult to believe he is not as good as Lee in CQC.


Lee is a chunin who specialize in taijutsu. Kabuto is Elite Jonin who fought Kage-lvl Taijutsu-specialist in CQC. If we take pure Taijutsu - I agree that Lee is better. If we take actual CQC with Chakra Scalpels and everything - Lee needs full health and Gates to exceed Kabuto imo. Something he didn't have against Kimimaro. And he still landed hits. DB stats are garbage btw.


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## Risyth (Jan 4, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> As soon as Kimimaro got serious, he blocked a gated Lee's kick dead in his tracks with his bones. Lee is also faster and better at Taijutsu than Kabuto.


Never did Lee use any of his gates against Kimimaro. At least, I don't remember. Also, Kabuto is faster than Part 1 Lee and could blitz him even with worse taijutsu techniques. His scalpels negate the need for that.


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## Veracity (Jan 4, 2014)

@master  sephiroth

Kimmi was not faster them Tsunade at all. She could outpace Manda and blitz Shizune and Oro.

Kimmi was literally almost blitzed by an exhausted base Lee; jutsu


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## Yolobito Swagchiha (Jan 4, 2014)

alex payne said:


> My original point was that stomping mad KN0 Naruto who is simply using TKB isn't even near Kabuto's performance against Tsunade. Yes, trickery and soldier pill was involved. But it is still several times more impressive than owning fodder clones. Considering Base Naruto vs drunk Tsunade's finger.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



See, I find it kind of hard to admit Tsunade into the upper echelon of Taijutsu master when compared to a style-dependent user such as Lee.

Tsunade doesn't follow any particular style, and as such most of her attacks are easier predicted. I believe Lee to automatically be better than her in Taijutsu, at least in theory.

That being said, I believe Kimmimaro can take this rather comfortably. Mid diff.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 4, 2014)

A couple things: 

1. Kimimaro's nearly two tiers better at taijutsu
2. Kimimaro's is a whole tier more reflexive and faster
3. Kimimaro can  Kabuto's strikes with bones
4. Kimimaro has a naturally regenerating body like Hashirama.
5. Kimimaro is  and Tsunade's breasts stopped Kabuto's scalpel

So even if Kabuto defied all odds and landed a hit, it wouldn't be all that effective. Kabuto also has no answer for:



Kabuto also said Kimimaro was stronger than himself.



Edo Kimimaro could remain a logia in his forest forever (and keeping making forest) so even Kabuto'd have a tough time. Healthy Kimimaro would last a long time.

And only ninja with defensive or aerial jutsu can really survive it to begin with. Kimimaro's way out of Kabuto's league IMO.

Part II Kabuto, however, can't be killed by being stabbed though, so he literally can't lose, but can shut Kimimaro down with sound genjutsu.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 4, 2014)

Denying the databooks is denying canon, because Kishi wrote them. Your interpretation of the manga sucks if you disagree with them, because the databook numbers reflect Kishimoto's interpretation of his manga.

Lee was  a Tokūbetsu Jōnin in ability given his taijutsu specialty, which Kakashi said was the result of more than hard work, but undeniable genius. Lee being implied to knock Gai out cold at a bar is proof of this (no mere Chūnin like the Iruka could do that, even if Gai was holding back significantly.)

Kabuto was also clealry a Tokūbetsu Jōnin in ability, with subpar abilities in many areas, as evidence by both the databook and the manga. Using him keeping up with an out of shape Tsunade as an argument, whose stats after three years of conditioning still leave her at the bottom of the barrel of the Kage, is unintelligible


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 4, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Never did Lee use any of his gates against Kimimaro. At least, I don't remember. Also, Kabuto is faster than Part 1 Lee and could blitz him even with worse taijutsu techniques. His scalpels negate the need for that.




*Spoiler*: __ 











Likes boss said:


> @master  sephiroth
> 
> Kimmi was not faster them Tsunade at all. She could outpace Manda and blitz Shizune and Oro.
> 
> Kimmi was literally almost blitzed by an exhausted base Lee; space/time



Because I already understand your bias, I will not debate anything regarding Tsunade with you. 

However, that was not even close to being a blitz. The dude casually stood there and decided not to even move and just let his defense take care of things. 



alex payne said:


> My original point was that stomping mad KN0 Naruto who is simply using TKB isn't even near Kabuto's performance against Tsunade. Yes, trickery and soldier pill was involved. But it is still several times more impressive than owning fodder clones. Considering Base Naruto vs drunk Tsunade's finger.



Avoiding someone who has roughly the same tier of speed as you is not as impressive as stomping hundreds of 0TK clones at once with Taijutsu alone without taking a single scratch. 




> Lee is a chunin who specialize in taijutsu. Kabuto is Elite Jonin who fought Kage-lvl Taijutsu-specialist in CQC. If we take pure Taijutsu - I agree that Lee is better. If we take actual CQC with Chakra Scalpels and everything - Lee needs full health and Gates to exceed Kabuto imo. Something he didn't have against Kimimaro. And he still landed hits. DB stats are garbage btw.



Lee (at that time) would outspeed Kabuto with the first gate and beat the crap out of him. And drunk Lee would fodderize Kabuto. Kimimaro wasn't even serious against drunk Lee until he used Dance of the Pines. He didn't even resort to a full CS1.


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## Ersa (Jan 4, 2014)

Kimimaro is solidly faster then the Tsunade that fought Kabuto, The Databook scores were written down and thought out by Kishimoto, it's honestly no different then Kishimoto saying yeah Tsunade deserves a 5 in taijutsu because she's a CQC monster. They're canon.


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## Veracity (Jan 4, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really? Is that gonna be the excuse ? Or possibly his body was physically too slow to react and he needed his bones to not get Lee punched. He was slo able to react at the very last moment, meaning anyone faster then Base Lee( lol) would land the hit. Kabuto is much faster then base Lee.


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## Veracity (Jan 4, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> Kimimaro is solidly faster then the Tsunade that fought Kabuto, The Databook scores were written down and thought out by Kishimoto, it's honestly no different then Kishimoto saying yeah Tsunade deserves a 5 in taijutsu because she's a CQC monster. They're canon.



We have been over the stats Kyokan. They make no sense. 

Tsunade with a 3.5 blitzing people with a 4 and 4.5. 

Yamato having the same speed stat as Kisame, yet the ladder being able to react to V1 Bee.

Hidan with a 3.5 reacting perfectly fine to Kakashis 4.5( + Sharingan pre cog)

Deidara being able to perfectly react to Gai yet Gai has a 5 in speed.

Shikamaru with a 2.5 in speed being able to react to a blind side attack from Kakazu who is a 4. 

The DB is just trash. I'm sorry.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Really? Is that gonna be the excuse ? Or possibly his body was physically too slow to react and he needed his bones to not get Lee punched. He was slo able to react at the very last moment, meaning anyone faster then Base Lee( lol) would land the hit. Kabuto is much faster then base Lee.



There isn't a single hint of surprise in Kimimaro's face. He is completely calm about the situation. 

He reacted just fine to a gated Lee and blocked his kick with extreme precision. Are you going to tell me that drunk Lee>Gated Lee in speed or all of the sudden Kimimaro's reactions had dulled there? He reacted just fine. That's terrible logic.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> We have been over the stats Kyokan. They make no sense.
> 
> Tsunade with a 3.5 blitzing people with a 4 and 4.5.




Betraying someone with 4.0 speed when a foot away is possible with 3.5 speed...

Orochimaru in part two had 4.5 speed. He was probably slower when in bad condition against Tsunade in part one (who he wanted to heal him.)

She never blitzed him anyway. She grabbed his tongue when he latched on to her.



Likes boss said:


> Yamato having the same speed stat as Kisame, yet the ladder being able to react to V1 Bee.




Bee did a frontal charge and Samehada absorbed the chakra, so it wasn't v1 Bee.



Likes boss said:


> Hidan with a 3.5 reacting perfectly fine to Kakashis 4.5( + Sharingan pre cog)




Kakashi was on the _defensive_ from Hidan, defending with just a kunai and protecting the Chūnin from Kakuzu at the same time.



Likes boss said:


> Deidara being able to perfectly react to Gai yet Gai has a 5 in speed.




4.5 speed doing so to a 5.0 speed before fleeing is perfectly reasonable.



Likes boss said:


> The DB is just trash. I'm sorry.




It's more likely your interpretation of the manga that's trash, not the author's.


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## Ersa (Jan 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> We have been over the stats Kyokan. They make no sense.
> 
> Tsunade with a 3.5 blitzing people with a 4 and 4.5.
> 
> ...


Shizune blitz was questionable, she never blitzed Orochimaru under fair circumstances and it wasn't even a blitz to begin with.

Does speed even cover reactions? Most of your examples the characters weren't using their max speed either.

You can't just call it trash and claim your opinion is better. It's part of Kishimoto's interpretation of the manga so like it or not, it should be used to supplement your arguments if necessary. Not even the manga is not consistent at times either, he is human after all. Nitpicking a few minor points does not change the fact it is canon material.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 4, 2014)

alex payne said:


> He had troubles reaching specific vitals due to Tsunade's massive boobs iirc. He reached Naruto's heart while getting Rasengan'd - that's a pretty good feat.



That is pretty good.


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## Veracity (Jan 4, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Betraying someone with 4.0 speed when a foot away is possible with 3.5 speed...
> 
> Orochimaru in part two had 4.5 speed. He was probably slower when in bad condition against Tsunade in part one (who he wanted to heal him.)
> 
> ...



Not gonna really say much about the Shizune feat. It was a meh feat.

And yes she blitzed Oro here ; *two* Byakugou users
Especially considering the position Tsunade was, completely on her back.

Yeah no. Bee dashed in in V1, and was parried by Kisame ; *two* Byakugou users

Hidan was reacting perfectly fine too Kakashi and that doesn't change the fact that he is an entire point high in speed and has Sharingan pre cog to help; *two* Byakugou users
Also speed stat includes reactions.

Doesn't change the fact that Deidara was reacting comfortably to ALL of team Gai, then was almost blitzed by someone with a 4.5, when Gai with a 5 could not even catch him.

Completely ignore the Shikamaru point huh? That's funny.

lol I thought this was Kyokan for a second.


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## Veracity (Jan 4, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> Shizune blitz was questionable, she never blitzed Orochimaru under fair circumstances and it wasn't even a blitz to begin with.
> 
> Does speed even cover reactions? Most of your examples the characters weren't using their max speed either.
> 
> You can't just call it trash and claim your opinion is better. It's part of Kishimoto's interpretation of the manga so like it or not, it should be used to supplement your arguments if necessary. Not even the manga is not consistent at times either, he is human after all. Nitpicking a few minor points does not change the fact it is canon material.



She easily blitzed him Kyokan. Oro was slashing her SEVERAL times, and she kept on getting up every single time. He knew god damn well he wasn't going to floor her, yet she was able to go from a floored position to uppercut Oro before he could even move an inch ; *two* Byakugou users

Speed covers reactions. And why would they be moving any slower then normal ? 

But specific manga feats contradict them time and time again. It's more logical to go from actual feats rather DB scores contradict themselves.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 4, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Denying the databooks is denying canon, because Kishi wrote them. Your interpretation of the manga sucks if you disagree with them, because the databook numbers reflect Kishimoto's interpretation of his manga.
> 
> Lee was  a Tokūbetsu Jōnin in ability given his taijutsu specialty, which Kakashi said was the result of more than hard work, but undeniable genius. Lee being implied to knock Gai out cold at a bar is proof of this (no mere Chūnin like the Iruka could do that, even if Gai was holding back significantly.)
> 
> Kabuto was also clealry a Tokūbetsu Jōnin in ability, with subpar abilities in many areas, as evidence by both the databook and the manga. Using him keeping up with an out of shape Tsunade as an argument, whose stats after three years of conditioning still leave her at the bottom of the barrel of the Kage, is unintelligible



What he said.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 4, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> Kimimaro is solidly faster then the Tsunade that fought Kabuto, The Databook scores were written down and thought out by Kishimoto.



Kishimoto cannot let a character's performance deviate from the data-book statistic just cuz.

Wait a second, he did?

More than once? Oh snap.

I think there's been enough of this.

Kishimoto also thought out and wrote down Ino and Sakura's data-book statistics, as well as the details of their fight, which include Sakura enhancing herself with Chakra to _blitz_ Ino in spite of a 1.5 disparity in speed and .5 disparity in Taijutsu.

Tsunade is vastly more skilled at and experienced with this maneuver than CE Sakura by virtue of having far superior control over her Chakra and actually being _the_ top medical ninja that prioritizes this Chakra intensive evasion during battle.

Examples would include fallen Tsunade blitzing tier 4 Shizune who had explicitly clarified that she had resolved to stop her master at all costs, continuously intercepting tier 4.5 Orochimaru and eventually getting up from an inconvenient starting position to leap over Naruto and knock him off of his feet before he could move despite already standing and having already noticed that the trembling had stopped, and pinning Manda with Gamabunta's skyscraper sized sword that could have only slowed her down before he could manage to snap his jaws shut.


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## Yolobito Swagchiha (Jan 4, 2014)

Seriously, all these people with the same avatars and signature are confusing the shit out out of me.

What's so wonderful about Itachi anyway?


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## Rocky (Jan 4, 2014)

It doesn't really matter who is faster between Tsunade and Kimimaro. Kimimaro, with his Kekkei Genkai, is far more skilled than both Kabuto & _Rusty_ Tsunade up close. Rusty Tsunade's Taijutsu feats are limited, and schooling Base Naruto isn't impressive to the guy that murdered 100 Kyuubi Naruto clones.Then factor in the Curse Seal's boost to physical abilities. Therefore, since Kabuto's only Taujutsu feats are "keeping up" with Tsunade and similarly schooling Base Naruto, I don't know how he holds his own here. Not without trickery.


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## Ersa (Jan 5, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Kishimoto cannot let a character's performance deviate from the data-book statistic just cuz.
> 
> Wait a second, he did?
> 
> ...


You took the bait 

I think Kimimaro's speed feats are superior to Rusty Tsunade's personally, you have to remember he was dying and Kabuto (a medical ninja Tsunade praised) was even surprised he could move. But he still caught a Gated Lee (who at that stage had 4 in speed without Gates) with ease. But even disregarding that his taijutsu skill is similar (Databook score and demolishing a KN0 army is impressive), he can use CS1 to further augment his CQC capability and has a Kekkai Genkai on top of that. 

Sakura had better Shunshin, Ino had better movement speed. I agree Shunshin plays a heavy role but Kimimaro's Shunshin should not be much worse then Tsunade's, his Ninjutsu score is still relatively high despite no specializing in it and he packs CS to add some senjutsu to his Shunshin. Tsunade wasn't exactly spamming Shunshin against Kabuto. Applying chakra to your feet like Sakura did makes you much faster as a rookie but does little to low Kage level shinobi like Rusty Tsunade and Kimimaro.

Blitzing Shizune is nice and all but the problem is it was at such close distance I don't think it's that impressive, could Hebi Sasuke with 4.5 arguably "blitz" someone with tier 5 speed at the same distance? I'd say it's within the realm of possiblity. Most of those interceptions weren't speed feats,\. Also Orochimaru's 4.5 was for Part II Orochimaru who can use his arms (summoning) and seems to be much healthier (his arms aren't rotting). Just because you're slower doesn't mean you can't predict and intercept. One interception was grabbing his tongue, the other was partly in due to part to his surprise and him having no arms, the last one for Manda is not really Orochimaru's speed but Manda's.


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## Bonly (Jan 5, 2014)

Kimi should win more times then not. Going under ground isn't a good idea for Kabuto as Sawarabi no Mai would screw him over and Kabuto actually landing a blow with his chakra scalpels would be hard as Karamatsu no Mai  would stop Kabuto in the process of landing a hit. Now add in how Kabuto is just outclassed in CQC against Kimi along with Kimi's regen, and now add in CS1+CS2 and things aren't looking to be in Kabuto's favor unless Kimi's just fucks around for shits and giggles.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 5, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> You took the bait



Reported for FlamingRain baiting. 

Jk.



> I think Kimimaro's speed feats are superior to Rusty Tsunade's personally



I'd be inclined to disagree.

The 1/1000th Kn0 clones were slower than a base Lee who was slower than he was in the Preliminaries, and Preliminary Lee danced around Gaara's gourd sand once he took his weights off while only being afforded a 4 in the speed department.

Kabuto and Shizune as gifted field medics are especially skilled and experienced in the Chakra charge intensive method of evasion, with Kabuto being augmented by a _Hyōrōgan_ and Shizune already boasting a 4. Orochimaru possessed a 4.5 and Manda is Manda.

Kimimaro simply got to show off against opponents inferior to the ones rusty Tsunade went up against; he didn't actually do anything Tsunade shouldn't have been capable of in my estimates.



> you have to remember he was dying and Kabuto (a medical ninja Tsunade praised) was even surprised he could move.



Kabuto also admitted to not understanding the workings of the Kaguya body type, so the validity of his opinion is already questionable.

I never got the impression that Kimimaro's speed was notably hampered to be honest, thanks in part to the fact that the specific effects of his condition weren't highlighted as the handicaps of other characters have been in nigh every other instance. For all we know Kimi had one of those sicknesses that allow you to go about large amounts of the day relatively normally until drastically flaring up at select moments to the point of incapacitating or even killing you, which I actually think is _likely_ considering that he only ever began succumbing to effects once he was nearing the ending stages of his stand and spoke about not having much time. And considering that Jiraiya could will himself back to life it's also possible that his operating by sheer force of will largely negated many of his physical limitations.

So if anything I'd think his stamina was the primary issue.



> But he still caught a Gated Lee (who at that stage had 4 in speed without Gates) with ease.



Lee was still notably slower than he was in the Preliminaries due to his injuries, and I'm pretty sure he still had his weights on.



> But even disregarding that his taijutsu skill is similar (demolishing a KN0 army is impressive), he can use CS1 to further augment his CQC capability and has a Kekkai Genkai on top of that.



Perhaps, but I was only ever addressing your conclusion that his speed is solidly superior to Tsunade's on the grounds that his data-book score is higher, so this is irrelevant.



> Sakura had better Shunshin, Ino had better movement speed. I agree Shunshin plays a heavy role but Kimimaro's Shunshin should not be much worse then Tsunade's, his Ninjutsu score is still relatively high despite no specializing in it and he packs CS to add some senjutsu to his Shunshin.



Chakra control clearly isn't the primary measurement for the Ninjutsu category score considering the fact that Sakura in canon has significantly better Chakra control than either of her teammates yet has a significantly inferior Ninjutsu score than both them and Ino herself.

Kimimaro's Curse Mark will just slow him down as it did in canon.



> Tsunade wasn't exactly spamming Shunshin against Kabuto.



Tsunade wasn't even spamming Chakra-charged strength against Kabuto, so yeah.....

I'm willing to bet that she, aware of how out of shape she was, was trying to conserve what Chakra she had for the perceived bigger threat of Orochimaru.



> Applying chakra to your feet makes you much faster as a rookie but does little to low Kage level shinobi like Rusty Tsunade and Kimimaro.



Because?

Standards rise in proportion with levels; if Chakra charging makes you faster as a rookie it makes you faster as an experienced combatant. Tsunade's Chakra control is to her level what Sakura's is to hers, which is why she replicated the Sakura-Ino incident with people beyond the rookies.



> Blitzing Shizune is nice and all but the problem is it was at such close distance I don't think it's that impressive, could Hebi Sasuke with 4.5 arguably "blitz" someone with tier 5 speed at the same distance? I'd say it's within the realm of possiblity.



With his _Shunshin_ that isn't accounted for in his data-book statistic, yes. Thank you for supporting my point.



> Most of those interceptions weren't speed feats,\.



Interceptions require getting up and moving from point A to point B in a certain window of time. They require sufficient speed, and if you're too slow you can't pull off the interception. Think back to Jiraiya not having the time to stop Orochimaru when he went for Naruto and Tsunade not having the time to stop Raikage when he tried to punch Naruto's lights out.



> Also Orochimaru's 4.5 was for Part II Orochimaru who can use his arms (summoning) and seems to be much healthier (his arms aren't rotting).



Orochimaru's inability to utilize his arms at the time is inconsequential because ninjas run with their arms flying behind their backs like Sonic the Hedgehog, meaning it had no bearing on his direct movement speed.



> Just because you're slower doesn't mean you can't predict and intercept.



It does when the aggressor is the first one to start moving. Can a slower person catch up to a faster person when the faster person has a head start? No, so the fact that Tsunade could interrupt Orochimaru's attempt to slice Naruto open despite the fact that he swung while she was lying down means she _isn't_ slower than Orochimaru.



> One interception was grabbing his tongue, the other was partly in due to part to his surprise and him having no arms,



I never referred to Tsunade grabbing his tongue because that was simply her retaliation to his attempt to strangulate her. I'm referring to when she jumped in front of his _Kusanagi_ swings to protect Naruto. And don't even bring me this "surprise" excuse for someone as insightful and experienced as Orochimaru when she decked him. The moment an active enemy is alleviated of their trembling condition they would naturally be expected to attempt an attack. We have extremely intelligent war veteran Orochimaru who knew full well he had enraged Tsunade watching her intently enough to notice the trembling stop _before Tsunade ever actually moved_, thus any surprise at a subsequent attack should have been eliminated. He simply could not get out of the way before Tsunade got up and knocked him in his jaw because Tsunade's Chakra enhanced movement is refined enough to exceed his own and his physical movement that his statistic accounts for.



> the last one for Manda is not really Orochimaru's speed but Manda's.



I know that Manda's speed is Manda's and not Orochimaru's, that doesn't detract from the fact that Manda is very quick.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 5, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> The 1/1000th Kn0 clones were slower than a base Lee who was slower than he was in the Preliminaries




None of this is necessarily true, given that KN0 clones are weak in taijutsu and therefore predictable and easier to counter.

Sasuke 3-tomoe predicting and easily countering KN0 Naruto (who likely had 5.0 speed) is proof of that.



FlamingRain said:


> and Preliminary Lee danced around Gaara's gourd sand once he took his weights off while only being afforded a 4 in the speed department.




Many of the young ninja improved dramatically between the Chūnin Exam and Rescue Arc. 

Gaara was stated by Lee to be among them. 



FlamingRain said:


> Orochimaru possessed a 4.5




In part two. His part one stats, especially in his terrible condition, are completely unknown.

Tsunade's stats at the time are unknown as well, and they were likely much worse than her DB3 stats, which aren't that great to begin with.



FlamingRain said:


> I never got the impression that Kimimaro's speed was notably hampered to be honest, thanks in part to the fact that the specific effects of his condition weren't highlighted as the handicaps of other characters have been in nigh every other instance. For all we know Kimi had one of those sicknesses that allow you to go about large amounts of the day relatively normally until drastically flaring up at select moments to the point of incapacitating or even killing you, which I actually think is _likely_ considering that he only ever began succumbing to effects once he was nearing the ending stages of his stand and spoke about not having much time. And considering that Jiraiya could will himself back to life it's also possible that his operating by sheer force of will largely negated many of his physical limitations.




In the databook, his body was stated to be in _agony_ while fighting. His basic movements were a feat of willpower in themselves.



FlamingRain said:


> Perhaps, but I was only ever addressing your conclusion that his speed is solidly superior to Tsunade's on the grounds that his data-book score is higher, so this is irrelevant.




It's just the author's opinion expressed with cold data, which makes arguing about them an exercise in futility.



FlamingRain said:


> Chakra control clearly isn't the primary measurement for the Ninjutsu category score considering the fact that Sakura in canon has significantly better Chakra control than either of her teammates yet has a significantly inferior Ninjutsu score than both them and Ino herself.




Chakra control is expressed in the seals category, because seals were explained to be a means of controlling chakra with more precision than without. 

And Tsunade's not that great at them, FYI. Her "precise chakra control" is blown out of proportion. Early part II Sakura could use it, after all.



FlamingRain said:


> With his _Shunshin_ that isn't accounted for in his data-book statistic, yes. Thank you for supporting my point.




Shunshin is limited by reflexes and chakra control, which is accounted for in the databook. 

Slower ninja do occasionally catch overconfident, faster ninja off guard with bursts, however, so your point is true to an extent.



FlamingRain said:


> Orochimaru's inability to utilize his arms at the time is inconsequential because ninjas run with their arms flying behind their backs like Sonic the Hedgehog, meaning it had no bearing on his direct movement speed.




Let's not forget that he was stated to be in severe pain because of the shinigami, having been shown to be in a sickly state with cold sweat numerous times.



FlamingRain said:


> And don't even bring me this "surprise" excuse for someone as insightful and experienced as Orochimaru when she decked him.




Because Orochimaru's never been surprised before because he underestimated an opponent. Hurr.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 5, 2014)

Another interesting snippet from Kimimaro's DB:



> Picture 2: He does not use the Shikotsumyaku alone. His body ability and evasion also, everything is "the strongest".




i.e. his 5.0 taijutsu is stated here, with special mention of exceptional evasive ability.


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## Bonly (Jan 5, 2014)

Another interesting snippet from Kimimaro's DB:



> Picture 2: He does not use the Shikotsumyaku alone. His body ability and evasion also, everything is "the strongest".




i.e. his 5.0 taijutsu is stated here, with special mention of exceptional evasive ability.


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## Ersa (Jan 5, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Reported for FlamingRain baiting.
> 
> Jk.






> I'd be inclined to disagree.
> 
> The 1/1000th Kn0 clones were slower than a base Lee who was slower than he was in the Preliminaries, and Preliminary Lee danced around Gaara's gourd sand once he took his weights off while only being afforded a 4 in the speed department.


Gaara improved massively between the Chunin Exams and the Kimimaro fight as he had inherited the "Will of Naruto". Lee noted his improvement iirc, the KN0 clones alone may not be at Lee's speed exactly but they're still plenty fast as they caught VOTE Sasuke offguard at times and personally I'd rather fight 1 faster and more skilled opponent then 1,000 Kyuubi-amped but weaker opponent that can't take a hit.



> Kabuto and Shizune as gifted field medics are especially skilled and experienced in the Chakra charge intensive method of evasion, with Kabuto being augmented by a _Hyōrōgan_ and Shizune already boasting a 4. Orochimaru possessed a 4.5 and Manda is Manda.
> 
> Kimimaro simply got to show off against opponents inferior to the ones rusty Tsunade went up against; he didn't actually do anything Tsunade shouldn't have been capable of in my estimates.


I respectfully disagree, I have my doubts a dying, sick and rusty Tsunade could easily catch a Gated Lee or react to Drunk Lee (who may I remind you knocked Might Gai out at a bar, irregardless of situation it takes someone of true taijutsu skill to knock the taijutsu master out) or that Tsuande could easily fodder a KN0 army (I think she win but not as easily as Kimimaro did). 

Kabuto admitted to sucking at CQC, he lacks CS, a Kekkai Genkai and Kimimaro's speed and taijutsu skill. No pill in the world is closing that gap. Kimimaro would blitz Shizune easier then Tsunade did at that distance. 



> Kabuto also admitted to not understanding the workings of the Kaguya body type, so the validity of his opinion is already questionable.


Fundamentally Kimimaro was still human and Kimimaro and Kabuto both knew he was useless and dying.



> I never got the impression that Kimimaro's speed was notably hampered to be honest, thanks in part to the fact that the specific effects of his condition weren't highlighted as the handicaps of other characters have been in nigh every other instance. For all we know Kimi had one of those sicknesses that allow you to go about large amounts of the day relatively normally until drastically flaring up at select moments to the point of incapacitating or even killing you, which I actually think is _likely_ considering that he only ever began succumbing to effects once he was nearing the ending stages of his stand and spoke about not having much time. And considering that Jiraiya could will himself back to life it's also possible that his operating by sheer force of will largely negated many of his physical limitations.


I don't know, people on their death-bed at usually weakened in this manga. Characters running on sheer willpower (like dying Jiraiya, Itachi and Kimimaro) are much weaker then their healthier counterparts.

Kishimoto gave us the sicknesses for a reason, to mitigate their less then impressive performances (still impressive but not that they should be capable of).



> So if anything I'd think his stamina was the primary issue.


Not just stamina, a dying body affects speed, reflexes, strength as well I feel. 



> Lee was still notably slower than he was in the Preliminaries due to his injuries, and I'm pretty sure he still had his weights on.


We've argued the weights point so you know where I stand. I don't think it was notably, he was slower although Kishimoto seems to think he got faster. Nonetheless catching someone with 4 in speed while using Gates is still impressive.



> Perhaps, but I was only ever addressing your conclusion that his speed is solidly superior to Tsunade's on the grounds that his data-book score is higher, so this is irrelevant.


Okay.

I think his speed is solid because of the DB on top of some relatively decent speed feats while sick and his implied feat of dodging FRS. But my comment was poorly written so I can see why you'd disagree.



> Chakra control clearly isn't the primary measurement for the Ninjutsu category score considering the fact that Sakura in canon has significantly better Chakra control than either of her teammates yet has a significantly inferior Ninjutsu score than both them and Ino herself.


Tsunade has never been noted to have a extremely fast Shunshin. I think there's more factors then just chakra control. I mean it's clear Ei has a far superior Shunshin despite less chakra control, it's possibly not all chakra capacity as Itachi has a pretty lethal Shunshin. Honestly it's most likely a combination of factors.



> Kimimaro's Curse Mark will just slow him down as it did in canon.


CS2 slows him down, CS1 allowed him to react to Lee better.



> Tsunade wasn't even spamming Chakra-charged strength against Kabuto, so yeah.....
> 
> I'm willing to bet that she, aware of how out of shape she was, was trying to conserve what Chakra she had for the perceived bigger threat of Orochimaru.


She was getting tired, she was abusing her strength at the start of the fight but began to tire because she was out of shape.



> Because?
> 
> Standards rise in proportion with levels; if Chakra charging makes you faster as a rookie it makes you faster as an experienced combatant. Tsunade's Chakra control is to her level what Sakura's is to hers, which is why she replicated the Sakura-Ino incident with people beyond the rookies.


Why don't people like Ei do it? 

Tsunade only ever applied chakra to her feet in Part II to counter ST. I feel Shunshin is a better ninjutsu to use for speed then simply applying chakra to your feet.



> With his _Shunshin_ that isn't accounted for in his data-book statistic, yes. Thank you for supporting my point.


Problem is Sasuke has been noted to have a fast Shunshin, Tsunade has not.



> Orochimaru's inability to utilize his arms at the time is inconsequential because ninjas run with their arms flying behind their backs like Sonic the Hedgehog, meaning it had no bearing on his direct movement speed.


4.5 speed is Part II Orochimaru's speed. Part I Orochimaru could have 3.5 for all we know and no arms means Tsunade had a easier time landing hits on him. This is kinda supported by Part II Orochimaru's better speed feats.



> It does when the aggressor is the first one to start moving. Can a slower person catch up to a faster person when the faster person has a head start? No, so the fact that Tsunade could interrupt Orochimaru's attempt to slice Naruto open despite the fact that he swung while she was lying down means she _isn't_ slower than Orochimaru.


Orochimaru was not looking at Tsunade and slower characters have caught faster characters off guard before. Especially since Orochimaru probably didn't expect her to come out of nowhere.



> I never referred to Tsunade grabbing his tongue because that was simply her retaliation to his attempt to strangulate her. I'm referring to when she jumped in front of his _Kusanagi_ swings to protect Naruto. And don't even bring me this "surprise" excuse for someone as insightful and experienced as Orochimaru when she decked him. The moment an active enemy is alleviated of their trembling condition they would naturally be expected to attempt an attack. We have extremely intelligent war veteran Orochimaru who knew full well he had enraged Tsunade watching her intently enough to notice the trembling stop _before Tsunade ever actually moved_, thus any surprise at a subsequent attack should have been eliminated. He simply could not get out of the way before Tsunade got up and knocked him in his jaw because Tsunade's Chakra enhanced movement is refined enough to exceed his own and his physical movement that his statistic accounts for.


Orochimaru is an arrogant prick who likes to toy with his opponents. So surprise is still pretty valid when it comes to him. Also is it possible Orochimaru could not use Shunshin due to having loss his arms and all his jutsu being sealed? It sounds outrageous but bear with me. Shunshin requires the ram hand seal, obviously we don't see people like Ei make this but Kishimoto possibly wouldn't want to waste panels on this like he doesn't waste panels on Onoki making seals for Jinton despite the fact he was shown to need them. Food for thought.



> I know that Manda's speed is Manda's and not Orochimaru's, that doesn't detract from the fact that Manda is very quick.


Manda was distracted, granted this wasn't too bad of a speed feat. I'll grant you this.


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