# Demon Eyes Kyo vs Archer, Saber, Rider and Gilgamesh



## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

Onime no Kyo from SDK vs Saber, Archer (Emiya), Rider (Iskander) and Gilgamesh from Fate Stay Night/Fate Zero.

Scenario 1: Kyo in Kyoshiro's body (before getting the true red eyes)
Scenario 2: Kyo is in his peak form (with the mark of the first Aka no ou)

Distance: 20m
Speed not equal

which side wins?


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

Speed not equal

:gio


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 17, 2013)

can he put down Gils armor ?


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## ikoke (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Onime no Kyo from SDK vs Saber, Archer (Emiya), Rider (Iskander) and Gilgamesh from Fate Stay Night/Fate Zero.
> 
> Scenario 1: Kyo in Kyoshiro's body (before getting the true red eyes)
> Scenario 2: Kyo is in his peak form (with the mark of the first Aka no ou)
> ...



Seriously?

Kyo will have serious trouble getting through Saber's armour,let alone GIl's golden plate ,and you decided to pit four heavy hitting servants against him?

AT best, he kills one of them(either Archer or Rider) before getting destroyed by the others.


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

ikoke said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Kyo will have serious trouble getting through Saber's armour,let alone GIl's golden plate ,and you decided to pit four heavy hitting servants against him?
> 
> AT best, he kills one of them(either Archer or Rider) before getting destroyed by the others.


Gilgamesh doesn't wear a helmet. Can't he just chop off his head?


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## JustThisOne (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Gilgamesh doesn't wear a helmet. Can't he just chop off his head?



The answer would be yes if Kyo can outright speedbiltz him, otherwise no because Saber tried that and Gilgamesh just protected his head with his arms


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## willyvereb (Aug 17, 2013)

Well, Saber wasn't bothered by her lack of helmet, either.
Despite her durability feat comes from being temporally bathed in Enuma Elish.
So I dunno.

Anyways, how fast are SDK characters nowadays?
I only know of a Mach 13 and Mach 81 calc.
The latter is for Chinmei with Red Eyes, who should be high tier.
I remember something about Lord Raisen using speculation to say that Tokiomi at max level has Mach 260 speed but I always took that as BS.
Because there's no such multiplier mentioned. It was just an assumption on his part.

So it leaves only Sekireigan which would increase their speed to Mach 810.
Still, FCK never used that tech agaainst Kyo so it's questionable how would he fare.
Albeit if we use powerscaling from Akira, he'd at least have reactions on that level.

Still, Kyo is getting overpowered here.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 17, 2013)

Tokito's speed was in regards to her percentage of the speed she used 

just speed, not overall power


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Well, Saber wasn't bothered by her lack of helmet, either.
> Despite her durability feat comes from being temporally bathed in Enuma Elish.
> So I dunno.
> 
> ...


There is Bikara (a low tier), who was blitzing mach 13+ Kyo with just 50% of his speed. And there's Tokito (a high tier), who was blitzing Bontenmaru (a mid tier) at level 1 which is 10% of her max speed.
This is not really a baseless assumption since level 5 (out of 10) was stated to be 50% of her max speed.

So there we have a 20x multiplier.


Anyways, Base Chinmei is a lightning timer ie. mach 300+ (or arguably mach 450+)


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## willyvereb (Aug 17, 2013)

Speed feats are calculated by time/distance.
Just because something travels at Mach 440 speed doesn't mean that a character needs to move at the exact same rate to dodge it.
In Chinmei's case the result was calced Mach 81.

I'll look into the thing with Tokito, though.


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Speed feats are calculated by time/distance.
> Just because something travels at Mach 440 speed doesn't mean that a character needs to move at the exact same rate to dodge it.
> In Chinmei's case the result was calced Mach 81.


The same could be said about Lancer's reaction to Saber's mach 45 speed right?
Just because Lancer dodged mach 45 Saber doesn't mean his own speed is mach 45, does it?


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## JustThisOne (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> The same could be said about Lancer's reaction to Saber's mach 45 speed right?
> Just because Lancer dodged mach 45 Saber doesn't mean his own speed is mach 45, does it?



mach 45 is just reaction speed


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

JustThisOne said:


> mach 45 is just reaction speed


Same case with SDK...
Chinmei also reacted to lightning, so why can't we say his reaction speed is mach 440?


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## Boomy (Aug 17, 2013)

WoG states that Gil has some shields that are able to block Tsubame Gaeshi. It could either mean that they are: automatic or his reactions are fast enough to pull them out and block attack that makes 3 slashes through dimensionl refraction simultaneously.

Just saiyan.


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## ikoke (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Gilgamesh doesn't wear a helmet. Can't he just chop off his head?



As someone said,Kyo would have to blitz Gil for something like this to happen,which is kinda hard when he is comfortably mach 45+ in reactions,and is accompanied by Saber(who has precognition) and Archer(who has Eye of the Mind). Plus Gil & Archer's swordspam is a good anti blitz measure.

And even if he did succeed in beheading Gil,there are 3 other servants to contend with. It's very unlikely that Kyo can kill more than 1 or at best 2,even if he manages to blitz them. The survivors can easily go into spirit form to get away and overwhelm with their greater firepower.



Coyote A said:


> Same case with SDK...
> Chinmei also reacted to lightning, so why can't we say his reaction speed is mach 440?



I don't exactly remember the scene where Chinmei dodged lightning,but the distance from which he reacted to lightning is probably>distance between Lancer and Saber.


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## MAPSK (Aug 17, 2013)

The King of Heroes solos


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

ikoke said:


> As someone said,Kyo would have to blitz Gil for something like this to happen,which is kinda hard when he is comfortably mach 45+ in reactions,and is accompanied by Saber(who has precognition) and Archer(who has Eye of the Mind). Plus Gil & Archer's swordspam is a good anti blitz measure.
> 
> And even if he did succeed in beheading Gil,there are 3 other servants to contend with. It's very unlikely that Kyo can kill more than 1 or at best 2,even if he manages to blitz them. The survivors can easily go into spirit form to get away and overwhelm with their greater firepower.
> 
> ...


Mach 45+ shouldn't mean much especially if people like Tokito have mach 260+ feats.

As for the lightning timing...here...

The distance doesn't seem much and he did it extremely casually (all in his base form). 
And Chinmei is so far behind Kyo, it would actually make you laugh.




MAPSK said:


> The King of Heroes solos


Alone, he stands no chance in hell.


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## Regicide (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> The same could be said about Lancer's reaction to Saber's mach 45 speed right?
> Just because Lancer dodged mach 45 Saber doesn't mean his own speed is mach 45, does it?


I think we end up scaling it to Lancer anyways because Saber herself logically has to be able to react at that speed.

Powerscaling and all that fun shit.


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## MAPSK (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Alone, he stands no chance in hell.


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## Regicide (Aug 17, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> tumblr


     .


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## ikoke (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Mach 45+ shouldn't mean much especially if people like Tokito have mach 260+ feats.
> 
> As for the lightning timing...here...
> 
> ...



Mach 45 does help,since to blitz someone with that level of reaction from 20 m,you need to be at least mach 900. 

Thanks for the scan. The problem is that we don't see where exactly the lightning originated(the cloud to ground distance).Of course,I'm not a calc'er,so I could be wrong.


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

Regicide said:


> I think we end up scaling it to Lancer anyways because Saber herself logically has to be able to react at that speed.
> 
> Powerscaling and all that fun shit.


Yeah, but that's just if she has the 3x boost. Neither Lancer nor Gil has shown the ability to increase their speed by 3x.



MAPSK said:


>


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## lokoxDZz (Aug 17, 2013)

I was sure SDK characters were at triple digits speed 

even say sometime that FCK full powered was near quadruple digits


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## Regicide (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Yeah, but that's just if she has the 3x boost. Neither Lancer nor Gil has shown the ability to increase their speed by 3x.


Not relevant, since we're just talking about reaction speed. It's not as if Invisible Air suddenly increases her reactions to match her movement speed.

Since Saber doesn't notably have faster reactions than the other Servants barring shitty ones like Medea and other Servants have no issues engaging her in close combat, there shouldn't be any problems with scaling to them here.


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

ikoke said:


> Mach 45 does help,since to blitz someone with that level of reaction from 20 m,you need to be at least mach 900.
> 
> Thanks for the scan. The problem is that we don't see where exactly the lightning originated(the cloud to ground distance).Of course,I'm not a calc'er,so I could be wrong.


That means not even DBZ characters upto the namek saga can blitz him? I think that's a bit too much 

And ofcourse...there are too many unknown parameters. Same could be the case with Saber vs lancer, since the distance between them and the distance which Lancer reacted/moved by, are unknown.

In this kinda fight (where both have the abilities to oneshot each other), I guess the person who makes the first move wins. If its 1 on 1, I see no way Gil or any servant can take on someone as fast as Kyo


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## Regicide (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> That means not even DBZ characters upto the namek saga can blitz him? I think that's a bit too much


It's a good thing we throw out personal belief in these debates.



Coyote A said:


> And ofcourse...there are too many unknown parameters. Same could be the case with Saber vs lancer, since the distance between them and the distance which Lancer reacted/moved by, are unknown.


He gets scaled to it regardless because Saber can react at the speed that she's moving.


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## Qinglong (Aug 17, 2013)

BL and Mapsk, ugh

What the fuck does DBZ have to do with his speed? If your reactions are sufficient you're not getting blitzed from standard distance.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 17, 2013)

FAPSK ruining threads since 2013


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## JustThisOne (Aug 17, 2013)

who is BL?


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

Mid-High Tier for SDK is mach 260+ 

And this is all before Kyo got his Shin Red Eyes.


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> What the fuck does DBZ have to do with his speed? If your reactions are sufficient you're not getting blitzed from standard distance.


I don't know much about OBD's blitzing rules, but I find this "you need to be 20x faster to blitz someone from 20m" claim to be somewhat ridiculous.

By this logic, even DBZ chars won't be able to blitz HST-level chars. And every time some character blitzes another in a certain manga, he should be 20x faster than the one who got blitzed.



JustThisOne said:


> who is BL?


Me  My MvC username.


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

Also, durability? Meet mindfuck.


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> I don't know much about OBD's blitzing rules, but I find this "you need to be 20x faster to blitz someone from 20m" claim to be somewhat ridiculous.
> 
> By this logic, even DBZ chars won't be able to blitz HST-level chars. And every time some character blitzes another in a certain manga, he should be 20x faster than the one who got blitzed.
> 
> Me  My MvC username.



IF we use the 20x rule, Kyo would be mach 1000 by chapter 7


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## Qinglong (Aug 17, 2013)

No because certain authors don't know how blitzing actually works. 


The speed necessary is dependent on the distance and how fast they can cross it.


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> Mid-High Tier for SDK is mach 260+
> 
> And this is all before Kyo got his Shin Red Eyes.


Apparently even that's not enough, and mach 900+ is required to blitz Gilgy


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## Regicide (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> I don't know much about OBD's blitzing rules, but I find this "you need to be 20x faster to blitz someone from 20m" claim to be somewhat ridiculous.


That's nice.

The logic is sound though.



Coyote A said:


> And every time some character blitzes another in a certain manga, he should be 20x faster than the one who got blitzed.


That's implying that the mangaka in question is even taking shit like this into account. Or that speedblitzes aren't simply thrown out as lolblitztropes anyways.


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## JustThisOne (Aug 17, 2013)

I thought that mindfuck does not work on these guys


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Apparently even that's not enough, and mach 900+ is required to blitz Gilgy



Yukimura had a mach 10 speed feat back in volume 5 and Kyo was his equal.

Bikara speed blitzes Kyo


Kyo then powers up and speedblitzes Bikara.

Going by the 20x logic, Kyo is now mach 4000+


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

Ok. Even if Kyo can't blitz him, the person who attacks first (or makes the first move) should take the battle....right?


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

JustThisOne said:


> I thought that mindfuck does not work on these guys



Only if it involves messing with their magic circuits.


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

Actually why stop at 4000?

Nobunaga speedblitzed Kyo and then Kyo powered up and tied with him.

I guess they're now mach 80000 

And this is all before the Mibu show up.


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> Actually why stop at 4000?
> 
> Nobunaga speedblitzed Kyo and then Kyo powered up and tied with him.
> 
> ...


Blitz tropes...



Qinglong said:


> No because certain authors don't know how blitzing actually works.
> 
> The speed necessary is dependent on the distance and how fast they can cross it.





Regicide said:


> That's implying that the mangaka in question is even taking shit like this into account. Or that speedblitzes aren't simply thrown out as lolblitztropes anyways.


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## JustThisOne (Aug 17, 2013)

Crimson King that is just getting ridiculous

People get speedbiltzed in Bleach but no one gives them triple digit mach speeds


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

Link removed
Link removed

20 meters? covered easily.


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## Regicide (Aug 17, 2013)

JustThisOne said:


> Crimson King that is just getting ridiculous
> 
> People get speedbiltzed in Bleach but no one gives them triple digit mach speeds


I'm pretty sure that Kubo's abuse of speedblitzing would probably result in relativistic Detergent if we were to account for every time it occurred in the manga.


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## MAPSK (Aug 17, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> FAPSK ruining threads since 2013



I like to consider myself a preferable alternative to ponies


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## Louis Cyphre (Aug 17, 2013)

JustThisOne said:


> who is BL?


Bringer Light
A retard wanker from MvC


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 17, 2013)

You're that bored CK?


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> You're that bored CK?



Outskirts Boring Dome needs to entertain me somehow


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## Sygurgh (Aug 17, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> 20 meters? covered easily.



I'm not sure you quite understand what people are trying to say.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 17, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> Outskirts Boring Dome needs to entertain me somehow



Fair enough


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## Louis Cyphre (Aug 17, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> I'm not sure you quite understand what people are trying to say.


I'm pretty sure you don't understand that he's trolling


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> A retard wanker from MvC



Coming from the guy who likes to wank Gay-lgamesh


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## Sygurgh (Aug 17, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> I'm pretty sure you don't understand that he's trolling



That's a bit lame.


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## JustThisOne (Aug 17, 2013)

I am pretty sure Louis Cyphre's posts had no relevance to this debate


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## Louis Cyphre (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Coming from the guy who likes to wank Gay-lgamesh


Lame pun with Gilgamesh's name 
1/10 for trying


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

Seriously though, if the 10x speed that sekireigan gives is true, Kyo and FCK surpass mach 2600 when they fought at full power.

The mach 260 lowball ignores almost all the power ups except for a few and doesn't take into account anything after Tokito's fight with Bontenmaru.


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> Seriously though, if the 10x speed that sekireigan gives is true, Kyo and FCK surpass mach 2600 when they fought at full power.
> 
> The mach 260 lowball ignores almost all the power ups except for a few and doesn't take into account anything after Tokito's fight with Bontenmaru.


Actually it would boost them to mach 4400+ (reaction speed), given Chinmei was a lightning timer

Plus, FCK also has Hotaru's Chikewai, which is stated to increase speed by a few times, pushing them into the quintuple digits


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 17, 2013)

We ever get a conclusion to that sekireigan shit anyway?

Anyone ever get that raw translated?


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

Half the scans say time stop, the otehr say massive as fuck speed increase. I'm gonig with the low-end until time stop gets solid proof.


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

Also, isn't Level 1 Tokito > base Chinmei (since Kyo was able to keep up with Chinmei during their first fight?)

If this is right, then Tokito should be mach 4400+, from the lightning timing feat


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

That should be how it works, but Chinmei is also a Red Cross Knight.


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## egressmadara (Aug 17, 2013)

^
No.... since Chinmei was clowning around.
I'm not sure if Kyo even kept up with him since Chinmei was floating around most of the time.


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> That should be how it works, but Chinmei is also a Red Cross Knight.


That's because he has the true red eyes.

It could be something like, FP Chinmei > Taishiro members > base Chinmei ~ Goyosei


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

egressmadara said:


> ^
> No.... since Chinmei was clowning around.
> I'm not sure if Kyo even kept up with him since Chinmei was floating around most of the time.


He was clowning around even more while dodging the lightning. that feat was extremely casual


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> That's because he has the true red eyes.
> 
> It could be something like, FP Chinmei > Taishiro members > base Chinmei ~ Goyosei



If that's true, then

Sasuke was able to keep up with Chinmei, but is still weaker than the 4 Emperors.

That would mean Bontenmaru is mach 81 when Tokito fought him.

Tokito at 1/10 of her speed is mach 81

Tokito at full power is mach 810


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> If that's true, then
> 
> Sasuke was able to keep up with Chinmei, but is still weaker than the 4 Emperors.
> 
> ...


Why are people using mach 81 for the lightning timing feat instead of mach 440?

But on the other hand, Lancer's reaction speed is accepted to be mach 45 though the feat was exactly similar to the lightning reaction. The mach 45 calc should also be reduced if you're gonna use mach 81 instead of 440


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

I'm jsut using low end number.

Otherwise we'll have mach 4400 Mid Tier for SDK


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

Mach 4400..
Why not?  High tiers could have possibly LS reactions


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## Louis Cyphre (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Why not?  High tiers could have possibly LS reactions


Here we go
Light Speed is a hyperbole
Hishigi do not strikes at light speed


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## Sygurgh (Aug 17, 2013)

Excalibur is FTL.
FTL reaction speed Servants .


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## MAPSK (Aug 17, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> Excalibur is FTL.
> FTL reaction speed Servants .



I think you mean Massively FTL. As in Massively FTL Gilgamesh


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Why are people using mach 81 for the lightning timing feat instead of mach 440?
> 
> But on the other hand, Lancer's reaction speed is accepted to be mach 45 though the feat was exactly similar to the lightning reaction. The mach 45 calc should also be reduced if you're gonna use mach 81 instead of 440


because, unlike your wanking ass, they know how speed calcs (lightning timing amongst them) work





Coyote A said:


> Me  My *MvC* username.


well that explains some things


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## Regicide (Aug 17, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> As in Massively FTL Gilgamesh


Someone doesn't keep up with translations I see.


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## MAPSK (Aug 17, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Someone doesn't keep up with translations I see.



I've been on vacation. Translations of what?


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## Regicide (Aug 17, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> I've been on vacation. Translations of what?


Gil ending in CCC got translated.

His ship uses jump drives.


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## MAPSK (Aug 17, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Gil ending in CCC got translated.
> 
> His ship uses jump drives.



Well, MFTL Skyfather Gilgamesh was a good joke while it lasted ck


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> because, unlike your wanking ass, they know how speed calcs (lightning timing amongst them) work


Even I understand how they work, duh. 

I'll agree with the mach 81 *as long as this mach 45 reaction is no longer used*. That's a huge double standard, trying to reduce SDK to mach 81 while not doing the same to FZ, though its the same kind of reaction.




> well that explains some things


because many people on MvC are wankers?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Even I understand how they work, duh.
> 
> I'll agree with the mach 81 *as long as this mach 45 reaction is no longer used*. That's a huge double standard, trying to reduce SDK to mach 81 while not doing the same to FZ, though its the same kind of reaction.
> 
> ...


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## MAPSK (Aug 17, 2013)

Come on guys, this thread isn't even like, 50% cancerous. We can do better than this ck


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## Regicide (Aug 17, 2013)

Go back to the Cancerdome.


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## Coyote A (Aug 17, 2013)




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## MAPSK (Aug 17, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Go back to the Cancerdome.



>Implying the cancerdome is limited to the MSBD

ck ck ck ck ck ck ck ck


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 17, 2013)

MAPSK brings cancer everywhere he crawls


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## Sygurgh (Aug 17, 2013)

There might still be some "hope" for Skyfather Gilgamesh. There was this instance where Servants came back from the edge of the galaxy. There might be an explanation somewhere in the new Material. My heart would die a bit though, like when I heard about hypersonic Balrogs in my LOTR.


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## MAPSK (Aug 17, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> MAPSK brings cancer everywhere he crawls



Silly Flutter, the cancer was inside you all along ck


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 17, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> There might still be some "hope" for Skyfather Gilgamesh. There was this instance where Servants came back from the edge of the galaxy. There might be an explanation somewhere in the new Material. My heart would die a bit though, like when I heard about hypersonic Balrogs in my LOTR.


outlier ck


for non F/E anyway


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## Regicide (Aug 17, 2013)

This thread is in drastic need of chemo.


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## MAPSK (Aug 17, 2013)

Regicide said:


> This thread is in drastic need of chemo.



It's too late. The OBD hit its terminal phase a long time ago. Now there is nothing left to do but wait for the cancer to consume us all ck


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

Jump drives just means it's travelling at FTl. Gil still has to pilot it at those speeds


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 17, 2013)




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## MAPSK (Aug 17, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> Jump drives just means it's travelling at FTl. Gil still has to pilot it at those speeds



He must use really good hair gel if it can keep its shape at FTL speeds ck


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## Sygurgh (Aug 17, 2013)

What did Nero pilot ?
I'm interested in the source for the jump drive.


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## Regicide (Aug 17, 2013)

Beast's Lair said:
			
		

> Brilliant light that seems to pierce through my closed eyelids.
> I hear the tumultuous bustle of a million lives.
> 
> “So we’ve arrived at last.
> ...


Piloting my ass. 

 the whole thing if anyone's interested.


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## Crimson King (Aug 17, 2013)

Not instantaneous


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## Regicide (Aug 17, 2013)

He clearly specified the destination beforehand.

No piloting involved.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 17, 2013)

this thread is pish


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 17, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> I don't know much about OBD's blitzing rules, but I find this "you need to be 20x faster to blitz someone from 20m" claim to be somewhat ridiculous.
> 
> By this logic, even DBZ chars won't be able to blitz HST-level chars. And every time some character blitzes another in a certain manga, he should be 20x faster than the one who got blitzed.



Technically it's not 20x faster.

you have to be able to fully cross the starting distance before the opponent can react and do something. So Gil, who has reactions sufficient to react to Mach 45 from 1 meter away (apparently), can react to Mach 450 from 10m away and Mach 900 from 20m away.

It's simple multiplication.

we don't apply it in verse because it would be calc stacking.


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## Crimson King (Aug 18, 2013)

Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

Yukimura is at minimum mach 260 here


Link removed
Same with Benitora here

and here

Link removed

Pretty sure the FCK covers much more than 20 meters in the last 2 instances, and no one could react to him.

I guess we have mach 5200 FCK and Kyo now


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## Nep Heart (Aug 18, 2013)

This thread is pretty much ODC.


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## Regicide (Aug 18, 2013)

Can't be helped, shit's bound to occur when Flutter and MAPSK are in the same thread.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 18, 2013)

I'm disappoint... MAPSK hasn't learned anything from Bernkastel while under her tutelege. I guess it's a good thing I inherit her cats. Maybe I should whip him into shape myself. 

As for the thread, the high tier servants have a substantial power and durability advantage, not to mention they have their own hax to boot.


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## MAPSK (Aug 18, 2013)

Ampchu said:


> I'm disappoint... MAPSK hasn't learned anything from Bernkastel while under her tutelege. I guess it's a good thing I inherit her cats. Maybe I should whip him into shape myself.
> 
> As for the thread, the high tier servants have a substantial power and durability advantage, not to mention they have their own hax to boot.



Bern passed on the torch?


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## Nep Heart (Aug 18, 2013)

Yes, months ago in fact. I'm just a lazy fucker who tends to forget that this place exists, I mostly devote my OBD time on the wiki itself... but hey, that can always change if it requires me to step up so that some disciples can be whipped into shape.


----------



## MAPSK (Aug 18, 2013)

Please teach me oh honorable master


----------



## Nep Heart (Aug 18, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> Please teach me oh honorable master



Leave a message at my desk, I'll attend it after I get real life and other online shit is out of the way first.


----------



## Kazu (Aug 18, 2013)

Ampchu said:


> Leave a message at my desk, I'll attend it after I get real life and other online shit is out of the way first.



So... in like three weeks?


----------



## Coyote A (Aug 18, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> Technically it's not 20x faster.
> 
> you have to be able to fully cross the starting distance before the opponent can react and do something. So Gil, who has reactions sufficient to react *to Mach 45 from 1 meter away (apparently)*, can react to Mach 450 from 10m away and Mach 900 from 20m away.


How do you know it is exactly 1m away? 
That's a huge assumption, since maybe he reacted to mach 45 from 10 or 20m away


----------



## Coyote A (Aug 18, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> ...


I've noticed one more thing...
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

As you can see in the first panel, Taihaku's movements were over 3 times faster than Benitora, who is mach 26+. He could land 3 slashes on him before Red Tiger could land even one.
Its clearly stated to be pure speed and not any kind of technique...

Guess FCK is mach 15400+ now 

Moreover, he can also use Hotaru's Chikewai technique, which is stated to increase his speed by a few times. The way the word "few" is used, I'd say it implies atleast 3-4x
=> mach 45,000-60,000


----------



## Sygurgh (Aug 18, 2013)

There was the time when Byakuya blitzed Ichigo. Ichigo was Mach 13 which would make Byakuya Mach 260. But then Ichigo powered up and blitzed Byakuya, which would make Ichigo 5200. But then Byakuya blitzed Ichigo, which would make Byakuya Mach 104000. But Ichigo powered up and blitzed him back... Bleach is FTL.
Am I doing this right?


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Aug 18, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> There was the time when Byakuya blitzed Ichigo. Ichigo was Mach 13 which would make Byakuya Mach 260. But then Ichigo powered up and blitzed Byakuya, which would make Ichigo 5200. But then Byakuya blitzed Ichigo, which would make Byakuya Mach 104000. But Ichigo powered up and blitzed him back... Bleach is FTL.
> Am I doing this right?


Won't work


----------



## Sygurgh (Aug 18, 2013)

Somewhere, Ockham is crying.


----------



## Crimson King (Aug 18, 2013)

So yeah, the 20x speed to speedblitz thing is retarded as fuck as you can see


----------



## MAPSK (Aug 18, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> So yeah, the 20x speed to speedblitz thing is retarded as fuck as you can see



Fiction gonna fiction


----------



## Kurou (Aug 18, 2013)

Did Kyo win yet


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 18, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> So yeah, the 20x speed to speedblitz thing is retarded as fuck as you can see


no, it's exactly how things work in our OBD matches 


but not in calcs


----------



## MAPSK (Aug 18, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> no, it's exactly how things work in our OBD matches
> 
> 
> but not in calcs



Calcs are for squares


----------



## Kurou (Aug 18, 2013)

Ad triangles,circles,rectangles ect.


----------



## Saint Saga (Aug 18, 2013)

Kurou said:


> Ad triangles,circles,rectangles ect.



Don't you fucking badmouth triangles you whore.


----------



## Lord Raizen (Aug 18, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Anyways, how fast are SDK characters nowadays?
> I only know of a Mach 13 and Mach 81 calc.



The mach 81 is still an outlier, Chinmei's a lot faster than that.



willyvereb said:


> The latter is for Chinmei with Red Eyes, who should be high tier.
> I remember something about Lord Raisen using speculation to say that Tokiomi at max level has Mach 260 speed but I always took that as BS.



Chinmei was not using Red Eyes when he was casually dodging Sasuke's attacks, and my estimation of Tokito's speed was for her base speed, not max. And it wasn't mere speculation, but logical deductive reasoning.



lokoxDZz said:


> I was sure SDK characters were at triple digits speed
> 
> even say sometime that FCK full powered was near quadruple digits



At one time, it was practically a given that high tier sdk'ers, were in the quadruple digits. They're at the very least, well into the triple digits for the high tiers, let alone the top tiers.

Trying to cap them off at mach 81+ is laughably absurd.


----------



## Kurou (Aug 18, 2013)

Saint Saga said:


> Don't you fucking badmouth triangles you whore.



You insult me. I would never bad mouth triangles. Those slutty hexagons maybe.


----------



## Saint Saga (Aug 18, 2013)

Kurou said:


> You insult me. I would never bad mouth triangles. Those slutty hexagons maybe.



In that case we're cool, no one likes those hexagons anyway so to hell with them.


----------



## Coyote A (Aug 19, 2013)

Lord Raizen said:


> The mach 81 is still an outlier, Chinmei's a lot faster than that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ofcourse!
Actually even Taihaku is atleast mach 78+...

here
here
here

As you can see in the first panel, Taihaku's movements were over 3 times faster than Benitora, who is mach 26+. He could land 3 slashes on him before Tora could land even one.
Its clearly stated to be pure speed and not any kind of technique...


Tokito being mach 260 is an extreme low end.
Scaling from this mach 78 and Chinmei's mach 81, she's atleast mach 780/mach 810+


----------



## shade0180 (Aug 19, 2013)

And that's one of the example of  calc stacking.  Oh my mistake, it's three not one.


----------



## Lord Raizen (Aug 19, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Ofcourse!
> Actually even Taihaku is atleast mach 78+...
> 
> Link removed
> ...



There are earlier instances of characters being able to do what Taihaku did to Benitora, during the Aokigahara forest arc.





shade0180 said:


> And that's one of the example of  calc stacking.  Oh my mistake, it's three not one.




You have no idea what calc stacking is, That's not calc stacking at all.


----------



## Nevermind (Aug 19, 2013)

Ampchu said:


> This thread is pretty much ODC.



It contains Nasuverse *AND* SDK, you expected any different?

On topic, Jedah raises his hand and kills everyone.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 19, 2013)

So did that SDK intangibility thing ever get settled?


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Aug 19, 2013)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> So did that SDK intangibility thing ever get settled?


What intangibility ?
There's a shadow logia ability
But not Intangibility as far I can remember


----------



## Lord Raizen (Aug 19, 2013)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> So did that SDK intangibility thing ever get settled?



The argument was never settled on the wiki but if someone wants to contest the use of the technique, then they can do so when it's brought up. It's not relevent in this thread.



Louis Cyphre said:


> What intangibility ?
> *There's a shadow logia ability*
> But not Intangibility as far I can remember



You're refering to Kotaro's shadow manipulation, an entirely seperate ability than what Eldritch is refering too.


----------



## Crimson King (Aug 19, 2013)

IIRC it was only invisibility that mibu mook had.


----------



## willyvereb (Aug 20, 2013)

Yeah, it's another one of Lord Raizen's BS.
We already had a discussion about it in the old wiki and he failed to convince anyone but Bas with it.
And no offense to him but no-one particularly depends on Bas' opinion, either.

As for speed blitzing, like others said we can't just add numbers like that because it's calc stacking.
You can easily have Shounen characters pass lightspeed with this method.
On the other hand people forget something I proposed corollary to this "blitzing = target's speed x distance in meters" idea.
This is a method to solve the apparent duality.
Which is fairly simple in concept.
Accept speedblitzing as a feat.

So if a character can speedblitz another from  a certain distance, he or she could perform the same under similar conditions or less.
For example you have a dude who blitzed an enemy with Mach 5 reactions from 10 meters.
That doesn't make him Mach 50.
On the other hand if you put him against any random character with Mach 5 speed or less, he can blitz them from 10 meters. Albeit from no further.
So from 11 meters the enemy might be able to put up some sort of countermeasure if it's fast enough.

Of course this method only accepts speedblitzing feats where it's a clear "disappearance from sight" method. And only if it doesn't get contradicted later like it so often happens in Shounen. Basically when a character spedblitzes another in one scene then in the next exchange the target manages to block, it won't count here as a feat.

This method does accept certain less quantifiable feats while avoid the mess what calc stacking or using peak human stats do.
Because it treats speedblitzing as an isolated feat. Thus preventing speedscaling abuse.


----------



## Coyote A (Aug 20, 2013)

Lancer and Gilgamesh don't have mach 45 reactions. They reacted to a mach 45 attack, but its unknown from what distance they did that.
If the mach 45 is accepted, Chinmei should be accepted as mach 440+ and not just mach 81.

Btw why is speed even being debated about here, 
Ofcourse Kyo is a shitload faster and will make the first move. Since they are both capable of killing each other, the one who makes the first move wins



shade0180 said:


> And that's one of the example of  calc stacking.  Oh my mistake, it's three not one.


If that's calc stacking, then Saber's mach 45 movement coming from the mach 15 calc is also calc-stacking.
And Tokito's x10 multiplier is exactly the same as this x3 times faster. No idea why this is considered calc stacking and the other isn't...


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Aug 20, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> IIRC it was only invisibility that mibu mook had.


Please tell me that by intangibility he didn't mean this ability


----------



## ikoke (Aug 20, 2013)

Someone needs to change FCK's wiki profile. It still has intangibility listed as one of his abilities.


----------



## Sygurgh (Aug 20, 2013)

Saber and Lancer did more than just react. She didn't have any difficulty analyzing Lancer's body and facial features to deduce that she fell into a trap. Lancer retrieved the weapon he had on the ground at the last moment. I'm not saying they can react to more than Mach 45, but they have legit Mach 45 reaction.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 20, 2013)

link the 3 swings again.


----------



## Ice (Aug 20, 2013)

Make him. **


----------



## Nevermind (Aug 20, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Lancer and Gilgamesh don't have mach 45 reactions. They reacted to a mach 45 attack, but its unknown from what distance they did that.
> If the mach 45 is accepted, Chinmei should be accepted as mach 440+ and not just mach 81.
> 
> Btw why is speed even being debated about here,
> ...






ikoke said:


> Someone needs to change FCK's wiki profile. It still has intangibility listed as one of his abilities.



Done.



willyvereb said:


> On the other hand people forget something I proposed corollary to this "blitzing = target's speed x distance in meters" idea.
> This is a method to solve the apparent duality.
> Which is fairly simple in concept.
> Accept speedblitzing as a feat.



Thing is though, this speed is almost always calced, so it would still be calc stacking. If it was actually stated, it'd be different.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Aug 20, 2013)

Former Crimson King profile said:
			
		

> Hasn't got anything on Jedah


----------



## Crimson King (Aug 20, 2013)

It really doesn't matter if they cna move at mach 45 at this point. FCK has shown to casually speedblitz mach 260+ fighters.


----------



## Sygurgh (Aug 20, 2013)

I have a question.
Since Vimana moves at the speed of thought, does it need a separate calculation, or can we say that it can move at Mach 45+? And can Lancelot's F-15 be scaled from it?


----------



## Kurou (Aug 20, 2013)

Did Kyo win yet


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## willyvereb (Aug 20, 2013)

Nevermind said:


> Thing is though, this speed is almost always calced, so it would still be calc stacking. If it was actually stated, it'd be different.


Schemantics.
The most important point of banning Calc Stacking is to avoid the issue of chaining up speed calcs and leading to a nonsensical escalation of character speeds.

This particular method would never have that.
It treats speedblitzing as an isolated raw feat.
And you really can't deny that a honest-to-god speedblitzing scene is an important character feat.
My method gives them the deserved credit while avoids bumping into the same problems as Calc Stacking does.



Crimson King said:


> It really doesn't matter if they cna move at mach 45 at this point. FCK has shown to casually speedblitz mach 260+ fighters.


He only did with Sekireigan, though.
Kyo most likely has the reactions to counter FCK in that state but it'd be a large jump to assume he also has the combat speed at that level.

And I would really like to see the reasoning behind Tokito's "levels" and the x10 speed multiplier in detail.
With scans and such.
I don't wish to re-read half of the manga just to find a couple of quotes.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 20, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> And I would really like to see the reasoning behind Tokito's "levels" and the x10 speed multiplier in detail.
> With scans and such.
> I don't wish to re-read half of the manga just to find a couple of quotes.



Pretty sure LR put the shit on the wiki when GM started questioning it when first brought up.

I'm not sifting through that shit myself, but its not like it hasn't been provided before.

EDIT - 

Fuck it





> Crimson_King Apr 6, 2012
> 
> 88movement Today 3:48 am
> You completely lost me when you started comparing Tokito's "Levels" to percentages.
> ...



Its actually extremely straight forward.  10 levels, level 5 is half maximum speed.

The only way it'd be anymore explicit is if it was outright stated each level = 1/10th speed added.


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## teddy (Aug 20, 2013)

Oh sdk


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## Crimson King (Aug 20, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> He only did with Sekireigan, though.
> Kyo most likely has the reactions to counter FCK in that state but it'd be a large jump to assume he also has the combat speed at that level.
> 
> And I would really like to see the reasoning behind Tokito's "levels" and the x10 speed multiplier in detail.
> ...



No, he didn't need Sekireigan at all to speedblitz them.

See his first fight with Yukimura. He casually disarmed and speedblitzed him before blasting Yukimura with his willpower.


----------



## Fatal Warrior (Aug 21, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> Lancer and Gilgamesh don't have mach 45 reactions. They reacted to a mach 45 attack, but its unknown from what distance they did that.



You're stubborn. People already told you that they don't get the scaling from reacting to the speed burst. They get the scaling from reacting to Saber in CQC, who reacts to her own burst speed.

Saber bursts are mach 45 --> Saber reactions are mach 45 --> Everyone who fought saber in close distance and didn't get overwhelmed has mach 45 reactions.

There might be other examples, but this is point being made.


----------



## Crimson King (Aug 21, 2013)

Why are we still focusing on mach 45 when it doesn't matter?


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## Regicide (Aug 21, 2013)

20 meters.


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## Crimson King (Aug 21, 2013)

FCk has speedblitzed mach 260+ characters from that distance


----------



## Regicide (Aug 21, 2013)

Blitz tropes.


----------



## Nep Heart (Aug 21, 2013)

Speed advantage or not, Kyo gets his ass wrecked from lack of power and durability. He's not suited for fighting heavy hitters anyway. Not to mention Kyo doesn't need Lord Raizen's level of calc stacking wank to be faster than the Servants if he already is to begin with, but speed alone is not enough to guarantee a win if the rest of their attributes are lacking.


----------



## Crimson King (Aug 22, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Blitz tropes.


Feats>>Tropes 


Ampchu said:


> Speed advantage or not, Kyo gets his ass wrecked from lack of power and durability. He's not suited for fighting heavy hitters anyway. Not to mention Kyo doesn't need Lord Raizen's level of calc stacking wank to be faster than the Servants if he already is to begin with, but speed alone is not enough to guarantee a win if the rest of their attributes are lacking.



How are they going to kill him if they can't hit him? 

Meanwhile Kyo can do a death from a thousand cuts style attack on them

Or get lots of dirt


----------



## Regicide (Aug 22, 2013)

Crimson King said:


> Feats>>Tropes


The feat is a trope.


----------



## Nep Heart (Aug 22, 2013)

Easy... Kyo's blade rebounds or simply get stopped in their tracks, loses his momentum and they capitalize on that opening to chop his head off.

 Alternatively, they can just force him to overexert himself until he tires out. 

 Anyway, I have an idea for a thread now to use as an excuse to get off my ass.


----------



## Crimson King (Aug 22, 2013)

Ampchu said:


> Easy... Kyo's blade rebounds or simply get stopped in their tracks, loses his momentum and they capitalize on that opening to chop his head off.
> 
> Alternatively, they can just force him to overexert himself until he tires out.
> 
> Anyway, I have an idea for a thread now to use as an excuse to get off my ass.



Show me proof their eyes can take 3 mt+ hits 

If he begins ot tire out, he heals himself with his blood


----------



## Nep Heart (Aug 22, 2013)

You can thank me for that caption change. 



Ampchu said:


> Anyway, I have an idea for a thread now to use as an excuse to get off my ass.





I keep to my word.


----------



## Crimson King (Aug 22, 2013)

Regicide said:


> The feat is a trope.



There is no such trope


----------



## Lord Raizen (Aug 22, 2013)

Ampchu said:


> Speed advantage or not, Kyo gets his ass wrecked from lack of power and durability. He's not suited for fighting heavy hitters anyway. Not to mention Kyo doesn't need Lord Raizen's level of calc stacking wank to be faster than the Servants if he already is to begin with, but speed alone is not enough to guarantee a win if the rest of their attributes are lacking.



Again, you have no idea what calc stacking is if you think this. The application of Tokito's statment allows for logical speedscaling without leading to any inflation.



Ampchu said:


> .
> 
> Alternatively, they can just force him to overexert himself until he tires out. .



Even low tier SDK'ers can fight for over 24 hrs without tiring out. 

Kyo takes this fight comfortably.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 22, 2013)

not sure how this impacts things in any way, but I dug up the   feat 

shooting in the dark here, but it could be double digit megatons


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 22, 2013)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> not sure how this impacts things in any way, but I dug up the   feat
> 
> shooting in the dark here, but it could be double digit megatons



Well, could be worth something.

Given its the fastest attack in the series as well, and given we know one person uses real lightning, could we apply the speed of said lightning to the attack in question here?

I mean, its not technically a calc stack.  its more so just apply the speed of lightning to an attack we already know is faster


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 22, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Well, could be worth something.
> 
> Given its the fastest attack in the series as well, and given we know one person uses real lightning, could we apply the speed of said lightning to the attack in question here?
> 
> I mean, its not technically a calc stack.  its more so just apply the speed of lightning to an attack we already know is faster



I don't see why not, given that Sasuke did actually use cloud to ground lightning


----------



## willyvereb (Aug 22, 2013)

No, you can't. That's a major assumption.
I just tried something similar on the Catellite laser in Negima and I got triple digit gigatons. 
It inflates numbers tremendously.

On the other hand we obviously see rocks flying around when Koryuu impacted.
Use projectile motion on them and you get the timeframe.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 22, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> On the other hand we obviously see rocks flying around when Koryuu impacted.
> Use projectile motion on them and you get the timeframe.



there's that too, which is why I posted the full scene


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 22, 2013)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I don't see why not, given that Sasuke did actually use cloud to ground lightning



Kind of what I figured, given this is the defacto fastest in the series.



willyvereb said:


> No, you can't. That's a major assumption.



How's it a major assumption?

We know its the fastest attack in the series bar none.



> I just tried something similar on the Catellite laser in Negima and I got triple digit gigatons.
> It inflates numbers tremendously.



No, its not so much that as Cloud calcs as most note are highly scrutinized for whether or not they're consistent with  the rest of the series.

Hell, Dastan got petatons by assuming lightspeed with its speed.

And what the fuck indicates the catelite is lightning speed anyway?



> On the other hand we obviously see rocks flying around when Koryuu impacted.
> Use projectile motion on them and you get the timeframe.



Why when I can use the already established notion its faster than anything Sasuke can produce?

Those rocks were obviously thrown much further away than that pithy distance they got to travel on panel.

Given that was clearly just the start of the impact with an indeterminate amount of time after it occurring before we see jackshit again.



Crimson Dragoon said:


> there's that too, which is why I posted the full scene



I suppose I can as a low end.

I just don't see what this "major assumption" is.

If it comes out an outlier, its an outlier.  Anything past triple digit megatons/incredibly low end gigaton would be too far above what's shown to be probable, given the FCK's dying will power was only 3 megatons itself.


----------



## Sherlōck (Aug 22, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Hell, Dastan got petatons by assuming lightspeed with its speed.



Yeah. It was a great feeling.ck


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 22, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I suppose I can as a low end.
> 
> I just don't see what this "major assumption" is.
> 
> If it comes out an outlier, its an outlier.  Anything past triple digit megatons/incredibly low end gigaton would be too far above what's shown to be probable, given the FCK's dying will power was only 3 megatons itself.



all of that seems fine to me

though the cloud shit does happen consistently, if nothing else


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 22, 2013)

Dastan said:


> Yeah. It was a great feeling.ck


it made MAPSK moist


----------



## Sherlōck (Aug 22, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> it made MAPSK moist


----------



## Nep Heart (Aug 22, 2013)

I seriously need to speak with one of my cats MAPSK so I can discuss with him on how I plan to whip his ass into shape soon...


----------



## Regicide (Aug 22, 2013)

Stop being lazy.


----------



## Coyote A (Aug 23, 2013)

Kyo blitzes and first kills Archer and Gilgamesh. Their hax is the only problem.
The other two have nothing that can hurt him, and they can easily be taken down IMO.

If he can blitz mach 260+ guys, obviously he can blitz mach 45+ guys.


----------



## Coyote A (Aug 23, 2013)

Regicide said:


> lolblitztropes


We can use the same argument for reaction-tropes

Gil is not mach 45 then


----------



## Basilikos (Aug 23, 2013)

>OBD
>Nasuverse and SDK
>Together in one thread

Oh, boy.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Aug 23, 2013)

@Bringer Light;
Stop posting here
And go back to MvC where you and your bleach wanker fellas think that Ulquiorra is a country buster


----------



## Kurou (Aug 23, 2013)

Kyo's won already, why's the thread still open


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Aug 23, 2013)

lolKurou


----------



## Kurou (Aug 23, 2013)

If you weren't such a gentleman I'd hit you lucifer


----------



## JustThisOne (Aug 23, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> We can use the same argument for reaction-tropes
> 
> Gil is not mach 45 then



We give servants mach 45 reactions based on Zero Lancer's reaction and counterattack to Saber's mach 45 burst, from a relatively short distance away. We simply scale this reaction to Gilgamesh because he can tag the fastest of servants without issue and has reacted to Saber on multiple occasions also without issue.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Aug 23, 2013)

Kurou said:


> If you weren't *such a gentleman* I'd hit you lucifer


Thank you
A noble demon like myself should know good manners
and of course: wear a nice suit


----------



## Regicide (Aug 23, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> We can use the same argument for reaction-tropes
> 
> Gil is not mach 45 then


No, you really can't.


----------



## Coyote A (Aug 23, 2013)

JustThisOne said:


> We give servants mach 45 reactions based on Zero Lancer's reaction and counterattack to Saber's mach 45 burst, from a relatively short distance away. We simply scale this reaction to Gilgamesh because he can tag the fastest of servants without issue and has reacted to Saber on multiple occasions also without issue.


The distance was never stated. So how can we say he's mach 45 when the distance he reacted from is not known?

Anyways, the argument is like
> If Lancer can react to mach 45, Gil can react to mach 45.
> If kyo can blitz mach 260 guys, he can also blitz mach 45 guys.
(Isn't it one and the same?)


----------



## Kurou (Aug 23, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Thank you
> A noble demon like myself should know good manners
> and of course: wear a nice suit



Indeed. Very classy


----------



## TheBlackDragonz (Aug 23, 2013)

Not really, BL. And two, can't the GoB be used with a thought? Can't Enkidu do something then?


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Aug 23, 2013)

Not sure if the signal will work


----------



## JustThisOne (Aug 23, 2013)

TheBlackDragonz said:


> Not really, BL. And two, can't the GoB be used with a thought? Can't Enkidu do something then?



Yes Gilgamesh can use the GoB by thinking about it, but how it plays into OBD battles is rather hard to quantify. Enkidu is useless as it is only effective towards "Gods" or someone who has divinity within them. What a "God" is in the Nasuverse can mean many things.


----------



## TheBlackDragonz (Aug 23, 2013)

JustThisOne said:


> Yes Gilgamesh can use the GoB by thinking about it, but how it plays into OBD battles is rather hard to quantify. Enkidu is useless as it is only effective towards "Gods" or someone who has divinity within them. What a "God" is in the Nasuverse can mean many things.



Would it still distract Kyo? That one instant that Enkidu would hold him, even if he snaps it, could be enough to use Gae Bolg, which IIRC, avoids durability.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 23, 2013)

Coyote A said:


> The distance was never stated. So how can we say he's mach 45 when the distance he reacted from is not known?
> 
> Anyways, the argument is like
> > If Lancer can react to mach 45, Gil can react to mach 45.
> ...



Because the distance is fucking irrelevant. Saber can react at that speed, everyone and their mother can keep up with her in close combat.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 23, 2013)

blitztropes?

Bleach debate tier thread.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 23, 2013)

man, I want that Kouryu shit calced just so I can have a good laugh about it


----------



## JustThisOne (Aug 23, 2013)

TheBlackDragonz said:


> Would it still distract Kyo? That one instant that Enkidu would hold him, even if he snaps it, could be enough to use Gae Bolg, which IIRC, avoids durability.



About Gae Bolg some people on the OBD and other places have debated that the prototype Gae Bolg Gilgamesh has does not have reverse casualty on it. And didn't some one say that GoB spam is only city block level or something?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 23, 2013)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> man, I want that Kouryu shit calced just so I can have a good laugh about it



I'll get around to it when I can be bothered to log onto my other computer that has all my manga saved to it.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 23, 2013)

Darthg said:
			
		

> link ?





Crimson Dragoon said:


> not sure how this impacts things in any way, but I dug up the   feat
> 
> shooting in the dark here, but it could be double digit megatons





Crimson Dragoon said:


> all of that seems fine to me
> 
> though the cloud shit does happen consistently, if nothing else



there ya go, tiny


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## Sherlōck (Aug 23, 2013)

Well seems like faith shit covered a large distance after going through cloud & in that time frame cloud only parted a bit.


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## TheBlackDragonz (Aug 23, 2013)

JustThisOne said:


> About Gae Bolg some people on the OBD and other places have debated that the prototype Gae Bolg Gilgamesh has does not have reverse casualty on it. And didn't some one say that GoB spam is only city block level or something?



Oh. Ok. Thank you for the help ^^


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## Kurou (Aug 23, 2013)

Gae Bolg on Kyo. No sells that shit and kills everyone


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## Boomy (Aug 23, 2013)

JustThisOne said:


> About Gae Bolg some people on the OBD and other places have debated that the prototype Gae Bolg Gilgamesh has does not have reverse casualty on it. And didn't some one say that GoB spam is only city block level or something?


For Gae Bolg - yes.

For GoB spam - hell no. One sword was able to repel Hercules strike, Saber already can harm characters with city level durability and Hercules is above her - Saber had to maximize her prana burst all the time to repel his sword strikes. While his were casual.

And we know Gilgamesh used Berserker as a pincushion.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 23, 2013)

based only on those scans I'm not seeing a way to figure out how fast the clouds were moving.

Could be my lack of familiarity with the manga though.


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## Sherlōck (Aug 23, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I'll get around to it when I can be bothered to log onto my other computer that has all my manga saved to it.



How many PC do you have? 

One for manga,one for anime & another for movie?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 23, 2013)

Dastan said:


> Well seems like faith shit covered a large distance after going through cloud & in that time frame cloud only parted a bit.



By the end of the fall out, all the clouds over head had been completely dispersed.

What we're seeing there is only an intermediate frame of what's happening.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 23, 2013)

Dastan said:


> How many PC do you have?
> 
> One for manga,one for anime & another for movie?



One for recreation and one for school.

Both laptops.

I'm on the school one atm because I forgot to charge my other.

Well, that and I'm too lazy to install skype on my other computer.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 23, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> By the end of the fall out, all the clouds over head had been completely dispersed.
> 
> What we're seeing there is only an intermediate frame of what's happening.



Legit. 

That's pretty far.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 23, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> Legit.
> 
> That's pretty far.



Eh, we can only really conclude they can see to the edge of the top of the tower IIRC.

Which is still about a couple kilometers IIRC, but still.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 23, 2013)

How long does that take then?

could potentially be megatons in that case.


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## Sherlōck (Aug 23, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> By the end of the fall out, all the clouds over head had been completely dispersed.
> 
> What we're seeing there is only an intermediate frame of what's happening.



Yes I noticed. But 

>>Golden Wing almost reached ground after covering 1000 meter & the cloud only parted a bit.

>>Reaching last 10 meter or so all cloud parted.

Seems iffy to me. It could be Authors inconsistency.He knew what he wanted to show but failed to do so IMO.


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## Sherlōck (Aug 23, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Well, that and I'm too lazy to install skype on my other computer.



I am too lazy to even log on to my skype.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 23, 2013)

Dastan said:


> Yes I noticed. But
> 
> >>Golden Wing almost reached ground after covering 1000 meter & the cloud only parted a bit.
> 
> ...



Nah, it's not an inconsistency.

They were covered by rubble.

By the time they had removed it, the clouds were gone from the sky above head.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 23, 2013)

that would just make the beam really fast would it not?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 23, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> that would just make the beam really fast would it not?



The beam itself is the fastest attack in SDK.

And one of the characters uses natural lightning for reference.

So, yeah, its fucking fast.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 23, 2013)

Here's a lazy calc to sate you fuckers in the meantime I guess.

Let's say the combined mass of cloud dispersed over head was about your run of the mill 2 km by 2km by 2 km cloud.

Cloud Volume = 4,188,790,205 m^3

Cloud Density = 1.003 kg/m^3

Cloud Mass = 4,201,356,575 kilograms

Now, the speed of the attack itself is at least as fast as a natural bolt of lightning, what with being faster than shit Sasuke can produce.

And the cloud mass we can see on panel appears to have the radius of its hole parted about 1/15th the distance the attack moved

So...

Dispersion Speed = 150,000*0.067 = 10,050 m/s

Energy of Attack = *212,173,758,700,000,000 joules* or *50.711 megatons*

Could be higher, but this was a rough and lazy calc with no scaling involved.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 23, 2013)

dem megatons


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 23, 2013)

There were a few similar feats during the fight with the crimson king, but we don't ever get a good after shot of the clouds, just an intermediate of them being in the process of parting.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 23, 2013)

yeah, I even posted them


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## Basilikos (Aug 23, 2013)

Heh, it's even better when you consider that Kyo and FCK can use *triple* Kouryu too.


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## Sherlōck (Aug 23, 2013)

As much as I love cloud calcs I don't really agree with this number.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 23, 2013)

What's the issue?

The clouds overhead were completely dispersed, what we saw on panel was only a fraction of that.

And the attack itself is faster than anything sasuke can produce.

Granted, I could have measured how much the cloud dispersed compared to the attack's speed instead of eye balling it from past experience with this shit, but I did call it a lazy calc.

As in, just a rough outline for the final draft so to speak.


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## willyvereb (Aug 23, 2013)

50 megatons, huh?
I feared it'd be something completely ridiculous like the Catellite calcs.

Koryuu is practically the strongest attack in the SDK verse so it wouldn't be that unreasonable to assume this.
Still, it'd mean that over 99% of the attack's energy is wasted by it breaking through the clouds.
(Because that's what Chaos calced, the energy needed to part the clouds, the rest remained the same).
I suppose we can write this down to "lol-fiction" though.
And just say anyone hit with Koryou is hit with 50 megatons worth of energy.

It still won't be enough to even make Saber bleed, though.


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## Kurou (Aug 23, 2013)

He'll make her bleed. With his dick


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## Sygurgh (Aug 23, 2013)

Saber will make him bleed, with her dick.


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## Louis Cyphre (Aug 23, 2013)

lol Merlin


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## Basilikos (Aug 23, 2013)

More like lol Japan.


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## Crimson King (Aug 24, 2013)

Hows did this last so long


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## teddy (Aug 24, 2013)

Did someone just implicity call saber a shemale


/dead


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 24, 2013)

I'm pretty sure her background story had her become a shemale at one point during her stint as "King" Arthur IIRC


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## Kazu (Aug 24, 2013)

Yep. Gotta make an heir somehow. So...



Louis Cyphre said:


> lol Merlin





Basilikos said:


> More like lol Japan.


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## teddy (Aug 24, 2013)

This is what happens when threads like this go on for too long


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 25, 2013)

at least you learned something, teddy


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## Nighty the Mighty (Aug 25, 2013)

wat...

seriously?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 25, 2013)

really, y'all should just watch Fate/Zero


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 25, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> wat...
> 
> seriously?



Yep.

Isn't Japan quaint?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 25, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> Gotta make an heir somehow.


nothing wrong with that


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## teddy (Aug 25, 2013)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> at least you learned something, teddy



lolnasu. loljapan


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## Sygurgh (Aug 25, 2013)

That's how she learned what please a man.
Is Excalibur around 300 megatons from the cloud feat, or do we count Bellerophon to make it a one gigaton feat?


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## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

The latter.

I recall willy also estimating it at 3-5 gigatons as well, although that seems to have based on the suggestion that Gil's armor was able to tank hundreds of Saber's strikes, which isn't actually specified in the VN.

Although on the subject on Merlin and Saber, this is what happens when you genderbend King Arthur and realize that Mordred still has to be made somehow.


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## willyvereb (Aug 25, 2013)

Nah, it's based on the classic slash/piercing attack type formula.

Saber's slashes have 3+ Mt power behind them.(Scaling from Berserker)
Gil can tank it with ease.
Meaning his armor has the "hardness" stat of 3Gt/m^2
And I suggested to scale Excalibur's yield to this.

Because even without it, Saber's cloud parting calc is giving her circa 1 gigaton of yield.
385Mt is merely the "side effect" of Saber trying (and succeeding) to annihilate Rider's Pegasus.
In HF, Pegasus can tank circa 2/3rd of Saber Alter's Excalibur.


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## Sygurgh (Aug 25, 2013)

I think there is a quote that would put Saber's casual slashes at 100Mt if Excalibur is at 1Gt. I'll see if I can find it later in the day.


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## Coyote A (Aug 25, 2013)

Why does DC even matter in this match? Aren't they both capable of killing each other?


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## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Nah, it's based on the classic slash/piercing attack type formula.
> 
> Saber's slashes have 3+ Mt power behind them.(Scaling from Berserker)
> Gil can tank it with ease.
> ...


Huh, alright then.

Wasn't HF Rider stronger than she was in Fate though due to not being nerfed by having Shinji as a Master? Or is the difference not significant enough to matter?


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## Kazu (Aug 25, 2013)

Well Sakura!Rider is definitely > Shinji!Rider. 
It's just that the thing in question is a summoned entity and is very likely to be separate from the whole master thing.


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## Regicide (Aug 25, 2013)

Fair enough.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 25, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Saber's slashes have 3+ Mt power behind them.(Scaling from Berserker)
> Gil can tank it with ease.
> Meaning his armor has the "hardness" stat of 3Gt/m^2
> And I suggested to scale Excalibur's yield to this.


pretty sure we don't reverse scale durability like that from Chaoses rule of thumb


although I'm still figuring out how this "hardness" of yours compares to plain ol durability


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