# Dispel Bound (Bastard) vs Light hawk wings



## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

Both give a near perfect defence against general attacks and are also a pain to get through. Which is the better off the 2?


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

LightHawkWings.  The only way to beat them is be one of the Chousin, the Counteractor, or have more LightHawkWings than whatever it is you're trying to beat.

Or at least that's what I've been told.  I watched the OVA series and it sure didn't seem like that was the case to me.  Just an example of where one thing is said and something different happens.

LightHawkWings are very much a plot device, explanations be damned.


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

Dispel Bound though are thousands of constantly regenerating shields that can tank nuke level attacks but no matter how much more powerful the attack from being nuke level it will always take out just one shield which will probably just regenerate state away.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Xellos Metallium said:


> Dispel Bound though are thousands of constantly regenerating shields that can tank nuke level attacks but no matter how much more powerful the attack from being nuke level it will always take out just one shield which will probably just regenerate state away.



That's way more reasonable than "Reduced to zero, LOL".


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## Pintsize (Sep 26, 2007)

Dispel Bound.

Protects you from losing.


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> That's way more reasonable than "Reduced to zero, LOL".



The Reduced to Zero thing is cheap lol but it can be beaten by an other light hawk wing. The thing I never under stud was why did they need to have more than one wing when fighting guys who don't have wings them self’s.

^Oh I forgot that each Dispel bound protects you from a different form of attack and nulls it completely as well as protecting from general damage.


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## Aldric (Sep 26, 2007)

Dispel Bound also comes packaged with Eternal Atoms, which may be even cheaper.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Aldric said:


> Dispel Bound also comes packaged with Eternal Atoms, which may be even cheaper.



Being able to come from the atomic level is nothing compared to Lighthawkwings.


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## Aldric (Sep 26, 2007)

You don't know what Eternal Atoms are.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Aldric said:


> You don't know what Eternal Atoms are.



Makes you immortal and able to regenerate from having your soul/body/everything destroyed.

LightHawkWings won't let you die in the first place.


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## Aldric (Sep 26, 2007)

Dispel Bound protects against LOSING.

And even if you can destroy all the shields (which would need insane speed and destructive powers) if you can't attack on three different planes of existence at once you can't kill the target.


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## Yak (Sep 26, 2007)

Light Hawk Wings. 

Sorry, but I think the drawback of the Judas Pain is too much on the long run because hardly any being can stand the strain it puts on the body, mind and soul. Light Hawk Wings might just hold out long enough for Judas Pain's power being deactivated.


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## Aldric (Sep 26, 2007)

But that's just for Majin DS.

There's apparently no limits to the Dispel Bound of high level angels and demons.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Aldric said:


> Dispel Bound protects against LOSING.
> 
> And even if you can destroy all the shields (which would need insane speed and destructive powers) if you can't attack on three different planes of existence at once you can't kill the target.



Not really that insane from the sounds of it.  Thousands of nuke level attacks in rapid succession, that's easily accomplished by many characters.

As for "planes of existence", that's merely a concept and has no real world analogue, let alone a way to quantify beyond word of mouth.


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## Aldric (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> Not really that insane from the sounds of it.  Thousands of nuke level attacks in rapid succession, that's easily accomplished by many characters.



Oh yeah yeah, of course, attacking ridiculously faster than light and creating nukes with a punch is "easily accomplished by many characters". What was I thinking.



> As for "planes of existence", that's merely a concept and has no real world analogue, let alone a way to quantify beyond word of mouth.



What the hell are you talking about? "Real world analogue"?

If a character hasn't demonstrated the ability to not only hurt the physical, but also the astral and ethereal bodies (or in laymen terms, body, spirit and soul) of his opponents he can't kill Eternal Atoms users. As simple as that.


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

Aldric said:


> Oh yeah yeah, of course, attacking ridiculously faster than light and creating nukes with a punch is "easily accomplished by many characters". What was I thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Aldric has a point here not many characters have what it takes to beat Dispel Bound like Freaza though he can destroy planet with his Death ball he is unable to launch Death balls fast enough to destroy the second bound before the first regens. While some one like the Flash is the opposite he would be fast enough to attack the next bound before the first regens but he lacks nuke level attacks to do such a thing and even if he did he is still unable to attack body spirit and soul. The problem here there are not a lot off characters who have all the required feats or stats to defeat some one with a Dispel Bound but alot have just one flash has the required speed but not the power while freaza has the power but not speed.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

> Oh yeah yeah, of course, attacking ridiculously faster than light and creating nukes with a punch is "easily accomplished by many characters". What was I thinking.



Many can.    Saint Seiya could.  DBZ could probably do it.  Possibly certain Star Wars fleets if they positioned themselves properly.



> What the hell are you talking about? "Real world analogue"?
> 
> If a character hasn't demonstrated the ability to not only hurt the physical, but also the astral and ethereal bodies (or in laymen terms, body, spirit and soul) of his opponents he can't kill Eternal Atoms users. As simple as that.



The soul and particularly astral planes are concepts that can not be proved or quantified in the real world and are treated differently throughout works of fiction.  Some regard all three as Bastard, some only cover two, and some only one.  There are even fictions out there that cover more than three.

It's like arguing "mindrape".  How do you measure something like that?  It's intensity?  It's effectiveness against individuals?

They are concepts that we apply based on our own, personal perceptions.  Like religion.

It's great for Bastard!!! if they want to set up rules like that.  Makes for more dynamic storytelling and possibly more interesting fights for the reader.  In cross-overs though what are you supposed to do?


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

The numbers of LHW is because you can use them for more functions than just defense. For example: you can keep 1 LHW as your defense,  other LHW for close range attacks and other LHW for long range attacks. The numbers give you more variety.....and they boost defense too. For example even a Choushin had trouble to disable a being like Z because he had 5 LHWs. 

More LHWs = more close to the power of the Choushin. After all LHW are part of their divine aura. 

I'd say LHWs are better:

You can use them as attack and defense. They transform any attack into zero (at last when the range of the energy used is below a Choushin). They can desintegrate matter just touching something or generating shockwaves. (For example Z desintegrated a huge part of the moon just poiting his arm against it). 

LHWs enhance your physical atributes too. Tenchi was a regular human...he got LHWs and suddenly he could move hundred of times faster than lightspeed. 

LHWs transform any energy into a harmless one...or they can absorb the energy and re-direct them to the target. 

LHWs let you instant teleportation to any part of the universe without aparent cost, Let you control gravity (Tenchi changed the gravity of the space to destroy a Black Hole in ova 11), let you do omnidirectional attacks automatically when you are surrounded. 

Hell....Z and Tenchi were at ground zero when Tokimi and Tsunami clashed their fist causing a shockwave that desintegrated the Milky Way Galaxy....and both of them didn't even received any damage. 

LHWs lets you became "pure light" like Z...becoming intangible to phase through anything (including shields of demi-gods like Choushin)

And if we include Tenchi's LHWs they let you do material conversion: transform matter into energy (and viceversa at will). He can create weapons, armors, anything he wants.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

vagnard said:


> *snip*



That's all just fluff to make Lighthawkwings less boring.


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> That's all just fluff to make Lighthawkwings less boring.



I'm just stating what LHWs can do. You seem obssesed with them.


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## Aldric (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> Many can. Saint Seiya could.  DBZ could probably do it.  Possibly certain Star Wars fleets if they positioned themselves properly.



DBZ? You're going to argue DBZ is FTL now? You sound like Phenom.



> The soul and particularly astral planes are concepts that can not be proved or quantified in the real world and are treated differently throughout works of fiction.  Some regard all three as Bastard, some only cover two, and some only one.  There are even fictions out there that cover more than three.
> 
> It's like arguing "mindrape".  How do you measure something like that?  It's intensity?  It's effectiveness against individuals?
> 
> ...



Yeah that's cute and all but it's far simplier than that; if a manga verse has only shown the ability to fight against physical creatures then they can't hope to destroy an Eternal Atom user. 

Of course you can make restrictions for fights involving Bastard!! characters against other verses or else fights would be worthless but this is not the point here. We're arguing which is the best defence. And since Dispel Bound/Eternal Atoms are impossible to overcome for characters that don't follow the rules set up by the Bastard!!verse then it's quite obvious it's an extremely efficient defence.

Exactly how is it different from that btw:



> The only way to beat them is be one of the Chousin, the Counteractor, or have more LightHawkWings than whatever it is you're trying to beat.



The only way to beat LHW is to be part of the Tenshiverse and follow its rules. There's no difference with Eternal Atoms.


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Aldric said:


> The only way to beat LHW is to be part of the Tenshiverse and follow its rules. There's no difference with Eternal Atoms.



The reason because Choushin can beat LHW is because they are nigh-omnipotent beings. That's the minimal level you need to deal with them...or  you need another LHW user that can cancel a LHW with one of their own lot.

If DS is a guy who can create multiverses, erase dimensions and time at will, etc, etc then probably he will have the power to beat LHWs.


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> Many can.    Saint Seiya could.  DBZ could probably do it.  Possibly certain Star Wars fleets if they positioned themselves properly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well as it was stated by the writer him self that you need to be able to attack all 3 things stated soul spirit and body at once it make's Dispel bounds more or less invisible because most characters don't meet all the requirements to beable to do that. 

DBZ would have no hope in Hell at beating the Dispel bound and i have never seen saint Seiya so i can't comment on that verse.


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## Yak (Sep 26, 2007)

Aldric said:


> But that's just for Majin DS.



And anyone at his or below his level. Even the Demon Kings would hesitate using it's full power so most people wouldn't even be able to stand the drawbacks from the Judas Pain at all. That's clearly a disadvantage in comparison to the Light Hawk Wings.

EDIT: 
Additionally, while Dispel Bound might be the overall better defense the drawback is just great enough to almost cancel that slight advantage out because what good is the best defense if it doesn't last long enough or potentially puts the user in great danger.


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Xellos Metallium said:


> well as it was stated by the writer him self that you need to be able to attack all 3 things stated soul spirit and body at once it make's disple bounds more or less invisible because most characters don't meet all the requirements to beable to do that.
> 
> DBZ would have no hope at beating the disple bound and i have never seen saint Seiya so i can't comment on that verse.



Mmm...you say each shield of Dispel Bound can endure a nuke right?. Well...an attack called "Athena Exclamation" in Saint Seiya has the concentrated power of Big Bang. 

That would be enough?.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

vagnard said:


> I'm just stating what LHWs can do. You seem obssesed with them.



I tried pumping a LHW advocate for more details once.  I kept asking him "What's the point to creating weapons and armor if you've already got LHWs?".  Basically he told it was just "nice" to have.  I ended up thoroughly convinced that LHW and their number are the be all end all as far as Tenchi Muyo is concerned.

Weapons/armor = snazzy outfits for the readers to glomp onto.



> DBZ? You're going to argue DBZ is FTL now? You sound like Phenom.



Last time I checked FTL was a measurement of distance over time, not a rate of attack.  Since DBZ characters put planet busting levels of energy into every attack and they still bother punching eachother, I imagine a DBZ punch would at least have has much force as a nuke.  

Can they punch fast enough with that level of force?  I don't know it never says.

Like Saint Seiya the collateral doesn't match the force.  I know, it's annoying, but that's how it is.



> The only way to beat LHW is to be part of the Tenshiverse and follow its rules. There's no difference with Eternal Atoms.



There is a difference though.  LHW keep you from being blasted to atoms in the first place.  And then the whole "reduced to zero" thing, where even if all the energy in the 3rd dimension was brought to bare against a Lighthawkwing, it wouldn't budge an inch.


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## Darklyre (Sep 26, 2007)

vagnard said:


> Mmm...you say each shield of Dispel Bound can endure a nuke right?. Well...an attack called "Athena Exclamation" in Saint Seiya has the concentrated power of Big Bang.
> 
> That would be enough?.



No, because no matter how much power you put into the attack, it can only take down one shield at a time.


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## Aldric (Sep 26, 2007)

Yak said:


> And anyone at his or below his level. Even the Demon Kings would hesitate using it's full power so most people wouldn't even be able to stand the drawbacks from the Judas Pain at all. That's clearly a disadvantage in comparison to the Light Hawk Wings.
> 
> EDIT:
> Additionally, while Dispel Bound might be the overall better defense the drawback is just great enough to almost cancel that slight advantage out because what good is the best defense if it doesn't last long enough or potentially puts the user in great danger.



What about Angels and the Adam of Light? They obviously have Dispel Bound too and can't draw their power from the Judas Pain.


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> I tried pumping a LHW advocate for more details once.  I kept asking him "What's the point to creating weapons and armor if you've already got LHWs?".  Basically he told it was just "nice" to have.  I ended up thoroughly convinced that LHW and their number are the be all end all as far as Tenchi Muyo is concerned.



The reason because Tenchi needs material conversion is to defeat other LHWs users. If Tenchi's LHW were equal to Z's LHW then the fight would always end on a draw...or the guy with more LHWs would always win. 

Tenchi has A+1....while Z was A. Therefore Tenchi wins.  



Darklyre said:


> No, because no matter how much power you put into the attack, it can only take down one shield at a time.



But Athena Exclamation doesn't dissapear with inmediate contact. So it would take down a shield. Then the blast with continue to the next, etc. 

When 6 golden saints clashed 2 Athena Exclamation the blast remained for several minutes.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Darklyre said:


> No, because no matter how much power you put into the attack, it can only take down one shield at a time.



What if it's a sustained attack?  Like a continous stream of energy that exceeds the output of galaxy clusters every second over the area of a person?



> The reason because Tenchi needs material conversion is to defeat other LHWs users. If Tenchi's LHW were equal to Z's LHW then the fight would always end on a draw...or the guy with more LHWs would always win.
> 
> Tenchi has A+1....while Z was A. Therefore Tenchi wins.



I'm afraid I have to disagree with you.  According to the other guy, no matter how much energy or matter Tenchi had, it'd never equal a lighthawkwing.

I imagine Tenchi won because he was God, not because he had material conversion.


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

I think the bound cancels out the attack so it ends the second the shield go's down but I am not a hundred percent sure on this.


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Xellos Metallium said:


> I think the bound cancels out the attack so it ends the second the shield go's down but I am not a hundred percent sure on this.



Has Dispel Bound canceled before an attack with the power of Big Bang?


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> What if it's a sustained attack?  Like a continous stream of energy that exceeds the output of galaxy clusters every second over the area of a person?
> 
> 'm afraid I have to disagree with you.  According to the other guy, no matter how much energy or matter Tenchi had, it'd never equal a lighthawkwing.
> 
> I imagine Tenchi won because he was God, not because he had material conversion.



The other guy then is wrong. LHWs can cancel between them. In fact Z cancelled all Tenchi's LHWs at the beginning of the battle. LHWs are "energy" too (at last in theory)... Kajishima called them "God's aura". Therefore with his material conversion plus LHW Tenchi should be able to transform or absorb other LHW to use them to his own benefit.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

vagnard said:


> The other guy then is wrong. LHWs can cancel between them. In fact Z cancelled all Tenchi's LHWs at the beginning of the battle. LHWs are "energy" too (at last in theory)... Kajishima called them "God's aura". Therefore with his material conversion plus LHW Tenchi should be able to transform or absorb other LHW to use them to his own benefit.



So why bother having LHW if you have material conversion...?


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

vagnard said:


> Has Dispel Bound canceled before an attack with the power of Big Bang?



I'm not sure I am not that far into Bastard ask Yak or Aldric but it doe's say in the data book that no matter how powerful the attack is it will only brake one bound at a time so it's much more effective to use the minimal amount of energy required on each bound so a slow ultra powerful attack is useless.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Xellos Metallium said:


> I'm not sure I am not that far into Bastard ask Yak or Aldric but it doe's say in the data book that no matter how powerful the attack is it will only brake one bound.



Did it speak of the nature of the attack?  Like millions of little hits in a very short amount of time?  Could that break one?  Or how about the regeneration rate of the shields?


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> So why bother having LHW if you have material conversion...?



LHW absorb the attack. Material conversion let you use that energy against your opponent in any way you want. 



Xellos Metallium said:


> I'm not sure I am not that far into Bastard ask Yak or Aldric but it doe's say in the data book that no matter how powerful the attack is it will only brake one bound.



Sorry...but that could be considered an hyperbole. Has Dispel Bound be tested against an attack of universal scale of a nigh-omnipotent being?.

LHWs weren't even affected (at ground zero) by an explosion that destroyed a galaxy made by 2 nigh-omnipotent beings.


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

I think millions of little hits might work if each has the minimal damage out put needed to brake a bound but then again they would have to strike at speeds well above the speed of light for it to work.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Xellos Metallium said:


> I think millions of little hits might work if each has the minimal damage out put needed to brake a bound but then again they would have to strike at speeds well above the speed of light for it to work.



Rate.  Rate.  Rate.  Not speed.  Hitting at any speed implies one strike closing this much distance in this much time.  Not how many times you hit in a given amount of time.



> LHW absorb the attack. Material conversion let you use that energy against your opponent in any way you want.



But I thought LHW canceled out anything!?  And again if you can convert LHW to your purposes, why bother having LHW in the first place?  You've already beaten the one absolute in the Universe.  

Is this all about just looking nice again?


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

Well if you mean like a DBZ beam attack then I don’t think it will not work because it gets cancelled out as soon as the bound is destroyed. If you mean like a machine gun then yes it might work.

can light hawk wings defend against cheap one hit kills moves like hellmaster phibizos tech from slayers.


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## Yak (Sep 26, 2007)

Aldric said:


> What about Angels and the Adam of Light? They obviously have Dispel Bound too and can't draw their power from the Judas Pain.



We don't know about the Adam of Light yet and the Angels and Devils aren't humans, they are basically created with the ability of Dispel Bound. It's part of their nature while DS is merely lending it.


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

Yak said:


> We don't know about the Adam of Light yet and the Angels and Devils aren't humans, they are basically created with the ability of Dispel Bound. It's part of their nature while DS is merely lending it.



That's true but this fight is about which is the better defence generally so I mean the general users like angels and devils not just DS who is the only one to show any limitation due to him currently needing the Judas pain to have dispel bounds.


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## Power16 (Sep 26, 2007)

Vagnard detail of the LHW was pretty good, any one has a good detail explaining the Dispel Bound so i could get an accurate judge on which is more broken.


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

Dispel bounds are thousands if not millions of constantly regenerating shields that can tank Nuke level and higher blasts Nuke level being the minimum needed to brake 1 but even if it is 1000s of times stronger than Nuke level it will still only take down 1. 

Each bound bans a different effects example being 1 off them bans instant win techniques and others ban other stuff. 

Each bound can regenerate at speeds as fast if not faster than the speed off light basically they regen instantly 

They have only ever been shown to have a limit with DS due to him useing the Judas pain to get them the Jdas pain being a dark artifact that slowly destroys the person useing it.

Is that ok


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Power16 said:


> Vagnard detail of the LHW was pretty good, any one has a good detail explaining the Dispel Bound so i could get an accurate judge on which is more broken.



Someone already mentioned it.

"Thousands" of "nuke" level tanking shields that cancel out any? attack used and said shields regenerate at an unknown rate.

LHW wings are way better though, since it's canon that the only limits they run up against is other LHW.  The entire Universe could throw all of it's energy against a single LHW and it wouldn't budge an inch.  

That means a billion galaxies could all explode on the area of a Lighthawkwing in one millionth of a second without doing a lick of good.

Or so someone has more or less told me.



> Dispel bounds are thousands if not millions of constantly regenerating shields that can tank Nuke level and higher blasts Nuke level being the minimum needed to brake 1 but even if it is 1000s of times stronger than Nuke level it will still only take down 1.
> 
> Each bound bans a different effects example being 1 off them bans instant win techniques and others ban other stuff.
> 
> ...



Okay, now you're pissing me off!

First it was 200 shields back when DS was first introduced to outskirts.  Now it's thousands and in just one post you've boosted it to millions of shields!

And you still haven't grasphed the concepts of speed and rof despite me mentioning it several times to you already!  

ARGH!


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> But I thought LHW canceled out anything!?  And again if you can convert LHW to your purposes, why bother having LHW in the first place?  You've already beaten the one absolute in the Universe.
> 
> Is this all about just looking nice again?



Uh?..What are you talking about?. 

"Ko-oh-yoku does not shut the incoming energy out but converts it to harmless one". -Tenchi 101 facts. 

Material conversion can take the harmless energy and use it to attack. 

How that's fancy?. 

LHWs are MAINLY DEFENSIVE. Material conversion enhance the OFFENSIVE aspect of LHW. LHWs doesn't automatically touch your opponent just because you want. You need to attack with them. Material conversion makes LHW became into something like Green Lantern ring. 

That gives more variety in your attacks than just using your LHW as shockwave or a spear of lightning.


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> Someone already mentioned it.
> 
> "Thousands" of "nuke" level tanking shields that cancel out any? attack used and said shields regenerate at an unknown rate.
> 
> ...



Well...I wouldn't say that. 

We know for certain that LHW can withstand an attack capable to wipe a galaxy like nothing. 

But like Dispel Bound.....anything but a Choushin only consider Tenchiverse and could be a hyperbole. There could be beings in other series below Choushin and above Human Tenchi and Z that probably could pwn LHWs...

Like Marvel Cosmics beings for example.


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> Someone already mentioned it.
> 
> "Thousands" of "nuke" level tanking shields that cancel out any? attack used and said shields regenerate at an unknown rate.
> 
> ...



I was saying it is possible for it to be millions characters do get stronger so he may have once had only 200 and the scenario you said would only take out as many dispel bounds as there are galaxies and even then it would have to be destroying the galaxies on all 3 plains of existence and the bounds are still regeneration as other are being destroyed.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

vagnard said:


> Uh?..What are you talking about?.
> 
> "Ko-oh-yoku does not shut the incoming energy out but converts it to harmless one". -Tenchi 101 facts.
> 
> ...



Variety?  You mean flashy effects that serve no practical purpose beyond looking neat.  

Again if you have material conversion, why bother using LHW since you can defend with material conversion apparently.


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> Variety?  You mean flashy effects that serve no practical purpose beyond looking neat.
> 
> Again if you have material conversion, why bother using LHW since you can defend with material conversion apparently.



mabe because material conversion comes with tenchi's light hawk wings like eternal atom comes with despel bound.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

vagnard said:


> Well...I wouldn't say that.
> 
> We know for certain that LHW can withstand an attack capable to wipe a galaxy like nothing.
> 
> ...



Well the guy I was talking to said it was for certain.  No matter how much energy you put into an attack, it'd never penetrate a LHW.

He said you'd need something unquantifable like "reality-warping" to beat it.


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> Variety?  You mean flashy effects that serve no practical purpose beyond looking neat.
> 
> Again if you have material conversion, why bother using LHW since you can defend with material conversion apparently.



Lol. How you can defend with material conversion alone?. Material conversion are a side-effect of Tenchi's LHWs...not an independent power. 

Material conversion is used to transform the LHWs or the energy that was ALREADY transformed into harmless one by the regular powers of LHW. 

You still don't answer why do you think it isn't more useful to enhance the range of attacks you have beside a shockwave and a direct spear of light. 

For example....in Ova 11 tenchi transformed a LHW in a force field to protect Aeka and Mihoshi who can't breath in the space without an external backup.


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## Power16 (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> Well the guy I was talking to said it was for certain.  No matter how much energy you put into an attack, it'd never penetrate a LHW.
> 
> He said you'd need something unquantifable like "reality-warping" to beat it.



If LHW is god-aura would reality-warping effect it?


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> Well the guy I was talking to said it was for certain.  No matter how much energy you put into an attack, it'd never penetrate a LHW.
> 
> He said you'd need something unquantifable like "reality-warping" to beat it.



And you don't need to be omnipotent to make reality warping. There you have Franklin Richards and some mutants in x-men that could do it.

When it was stated that only choushin could overcome a LHW probably is talking there is no other being in Tenchiverse capable to perform that feat. 

And I doubt Kajishima was thinking about "billions of galaxies exploding at the same time" when he made that statement.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

> Lol. How you can defend with material conversion alone?.



...By converting the energy and matter used against you to your own purposes, just like you said Tenchi did with Z's LHWs.  



vagnard said:


> You still don't answer why do you think it isn't more useful to enhance the range of attacks you have beside a shockwave and a direct spear of light.
> 
> For example....in Ova 11 tenchi transformed a LHW in a force field to protect Aeka and Mihoshi who can't breath in the space without an external backup.



Mostly I'm thinking in terms of LHW users smacking the crap out of eachother.  Creating nice things for innocent bystanders is great and all, but holds no meaning in a one on one fight.

Against LHW users, range of attacks is meaningless.  Against everyone else, well, it's just nice being able to think casually on _how_ you want to kill your enemies.


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> ...By converting the energy and matter used against you to your own purposes, just like you said Tenchi did with Z's LHWs.



Lol. Did you read what I wrote?. You need to absorb the energy with LHWs first....then the same LHWs make material conversion!!!. IT ISN'T AN INDEPENT POWER. IT'S A POWER OF TENCHI'S LWH. You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. Tenchi can't make material conversion if he doesn't capture first the energy or matter with his LHW. 



Wesley said:


> Mostly I'm thinking in terms of LHW users smacking the crap out of eachother.  Creating nice things for innocent bystanders is great and all, but holds no meaning in a one on one fight.
> 
> Against LHW users, range of attacks is meaningless.  Against everyone else, well, it's just nice being able to think casually on _how_ you want to kill your enemies.



They aren't meaningless. If Tenchi can use the energy of his own LHW plus the energy of other LHWs user then he could overcome the other LHWs of the user easily. 

The shape of the weapons would make more easy to damage the target....for example....If Z's attack Tenchi with a LHW and then Tenchi absorb it and transform one of his own LHWs into a weapon with the energy of the 2 LHWs combined Z would need to evade the attack because Tenchi  could pierce his defense and kill him. In that case...a suitable weapon would be useful to catch Z....specially considering we are talking about guys who can move hundred of times faster than lightspeed.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

> Lol. Did you read what I wrote?. You need to absorb the energy with LHWs first....then the same LHWs make material conversion!!!. IT ISN'T AN INDEPENT POWER. IT'S A POWER OF TENCHI'S LWH. You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. Tenchi can't make material conversion if he doesn't capture first the energy or matter with his LHW.



My point is that if you have material conversion, you don't need LHWs as far as what you've said is concerned.

Nevermind how much matter and energy you can convert over time...



> They aren't meaningless. If Tenchi can use the energy of his own LHW plus the energy of other LHWs user then he could overcome the other LHWs of the user easily.
> 
> The shape of the weapons would make more easy to damage the target....for example....If Z's attack Tenchi with a LHW and then Tenchi absorb it and transform one of his own LHWs into a weapon with the energy of the 2 LHWs combined Z would need to evade the attack because Tenchi  could pierce his defense and kill him. In that case...a suitable weapon would be useful to catch Z....specially considering we are talking about guys who can move hundred of times faster than lightspeed.



Moving around, creating shapes, directions of attacks.  It's all meaningless against LHW.

Either you have LHW or you don't.

That's what I think until Endless Mike tells me otherwise.


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## Tuxx (Sep 26, 2007)

Damnit Wesley, your still fixated on that material conversion thingy!?

What happened man... I thought you were cool! 

>_>
<_<
*spaces out*


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> My point is that if you have material conversion, you don't need LHWs as far as what you've said is concerned.
> 
> Nevermind how much matter and energy you can convert over time...



For 999999999 time. You need LHWs because LHWs are the damn thing that makes material conversion. TENCHI's LHW capture the energy with LHWs and then the same LHW can make material conversion with them to transform into a weapon to attack the enemy.  





Wesley said:


> Moving around, creating shapes, directions of attacks.  It's all meaningless against LHW.
> 
> Either you have LHW or you don't.
> 
> That's what I think until Endless Mike tells me otherwise.



Lol. Where are you taking that "facts"?.

I probably know more of Tenchi than this entire forum combined. 

The only things that were stated by Kajishima are:

-LHWs transform energy into harmless one. He multiplies the energy by a factor of zero. 

-LHWs requiere a huge system to be pierced...and there is only one power (IN TENCHIVERSE) that can overcome them (Choushin). 

It's not like LHWs can't be overcomed by energy. It's the fact that in Tenchiverse only Choushin's power (and by extention anomalies like Tenchi and Z who are wielders of Choushin's powers and avatar of their will) has demonstrated the power to overcome LHWs. 

So....how transforming your LHWs into weapons aren't useful against other LHWs user when the "absolute defense" advantage is nullified?. There the most skilled fighter is the one who wins. As simple as that.


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

vagnard said:


> For 999999999 time. You need LHWs because LHWs are the damn thing that makes material conversion. TENCHI's LHW capture the energy with LHWs and then the same LHW can make material conversion with them to transform into a weapon to attack the enemy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So Tenchi has 3 wings and Z has 5 doe's that mean because Tenchi has material conversion he can over come the disadvantage of having less wings than Z.


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## Tuxx (Sep 26, 2007)

Tenchi has 6 Wings... ><


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

Tuxx said:


> Tenchi has 6 Wings... ><



oh I thought he had 3 wings in his fight with Z


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## Tuxx (Sep 26, 2007)

Oh.. he did, I meant afterwards though. ><  Z still canceled out Tenchi's wings despite material conversion though...

Vagnard can answer better or fix me.


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Xellos Metallium said:


> So Tenchi has 3 wings and Z has 5 doe's that mean because Tenchi has material conversion he can over come the disadvantage of having less wings than Z.



In terms of potential...yes. He could do it. But he was a rookie using his LHWs in the moment he faced Z....so Z pwned 3 LHW Tenchi easily while Z was at the peak of his power and skill. 

But now Tenchi (after the Choushin War) has 6 LHW + material conversion plus more knowledge. So Z has no chance against current Tenchi.


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

Oh cool so material conversion can be a huge advantage if your not a noob like tenchi was at the point where he fort Z.


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## Tuxx (Sep 26, 2007)

Well in GXP, Tenchi matures alot.  He's not like he used to be anymore and seems to slowly grasp his situation and his powers slowly iirc.  Not that he showed his LHW in GXP. ><


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Tuxx said:


> Well in GXP, Tenchi matures alot.  He's not like he used to be anymore and seems to slowly grasp his situation and his powers slowly iirc.  Not that he showed his LHW in GXP. ><



Yes. In GXP even without LHW he is way faster than regular Human. 

For example he won a race against Seina Yamada (who was using a bycicle) who was physically enhanced to superhuman levels by the galaxy police.


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

It appears Light hawk wings win this thread even though there both pretty much the perfect defence out side there respective verses. Light hawk wings appear to be the more versatile of the 2 allowing them to be used offensively as well as defensively and as they say a good offence is the best defence.


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

He is half Jerian though and there normal citizens are supposed to be super human as well and stronger than the average galaxy police officer.


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## Tuxx (Sep 26, 2007)

Yes that might be part of the reason for that.  But I think it was pointed out somewhere... that the changes were mostly due to him being well... you know...


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

I do think techchi being him would effect Tenchi a little more than being half super human allian.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Don't tell me GXP is canon!?


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## Tuxx (Sep 26, 2007)

Anime one is. ><


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## Gig (Sep 26, 2007)

I thought the tenchi anime and Ova was none canon because there are a series of books.

Tuxx whos the girl in your sig she looks cool


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Xellos Metallium said:


> Tuxx whos the girl in your sig she looks cool



*Giggles*


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## Tuxx (Sep 26, 2007)

The OVAs came first, and Kajishima was the main guy who help made it all.  All the other ones, universe, toyko and the manga were made by different people.  Kajishima only made 3 canon novels too.

Ifurita from El Hazard. ^^
_This place lacks Ifurita. ><_


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Tuxx said:


> The OVAs came first, and Kajishima was the main guy who help made it all.  All the other ones, universe, toyko and the manga were made by different people.  Kajishima only made 3 canon novels too.
> 
> Ifurita from El Hazard. ^^



El Hazard was made by the same guy that created Tenchi Muyo.  If you liked one, you'll like the other.

Personally I prefer El Hazard myself.  Better overall cast of characters.


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## Tuxx (Sep 26, 2007)

No love for Dual! Parallel, Wesley?


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Never heard of it.  :sweat

The Tenchi Novels aren't canon?


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## ez (Sep 26, 2007)

dual is an alternate reality spin off involving mechas :x

the tenchi manga is very different from the anime


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## Tuxx (Sep 26, 2007)

Zomg Wesley... you never heard or even watched Dual! Parallel!?!?!  Watch it  *n o w*, do it.  If you loved El Hazard, no reason why you wouldn't like Dual!.  Unless you hate Mecha that is. ><

The only novel that is canon are the  Shin Tenchi Muyo! Ryo-ohki by Kajishima.


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Well, alright, how about I liked the OVAs, but hated the TV series?  Would you say that makes any difference?


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## Tuxx (Sep 26, 2007)

Tv series didn't have Kajishima's touch and familiarity, if thats what your saying.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 26, 2007)

Light Hawk Wings could survive a billion galaxies exploding right on them and be unharmed. Remember that Z said that Tokimi would need to expend enough energy to destroy the entire third dimension (universe) to kill him, and she agreed and backed down. (This was after he had already given up 3 of his Light Hawk Wings to cancel out Tenchi's and only had 2 left).


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> Light Hawk Wings could survive a billion galaxies exploding right on them and be unharmed. Remember that Z said that Tokimi would need to expend enough energy to destroy the entire third dimension (universe) to kill him, and she agreed and backed down. (This was after he had already given up 3 of his Light Hawk Wings to cancel out Tenchi's and only had 2 left).



What about Material Conversion?  Vanguard said it worked on Lighthawkwings.  Doesn't that break the 'attacks to zero' rule?


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## Endless Mike (Sep 26, 2007)

If it can be used with the energy of Light Hawk Wings themselves to cancel them out (only by another LHW user)


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## Wesley (Sep 26, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> If it can be used with the energy of Light Hawk Wings themselves to cancel them out (only by another LHW user)



So what you mean is that it works on everything _and_ LightHawkWings so long as it's LightHawkWings doing all the work.  But wait, didn't Z use three of his to cancel out Tenchi's wings?  How can Material Conversion still work if they're being used for something else?

And why didn't the Universe explode when those pirates destroyed that Jirian Craft?  The Counteractor was behind it so the power output was defininently there.  Universe should have gone boom when that happened.


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Wesley said:


> What about Material Conversion?  Vanguard said it worked on Lighthawkwings.  Doesn't that break the 'attacks to zero' rule?



You didn't understand what I say. Material conversion THROUGH LHWs would work. Just like LHW can cancel another LHW or overcome it. 

Stop thinking in material conversion as a separate entity from LHWs. It's material conversion using LHWs.

Tenchi couldn't prevent Z owning him because he was a noob who hardly had knowledge about using LHW. All the times he used LHWs were more like instinct while Z was trained personally by Tokimi into learning the capacities and abilities of LHW.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 26, 2007)

That was the sub - Light Hawk Wing, not the actual LHWs.


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