# SM Hashirama vs Akatsuki



## Luftwaffles (Jun 25, 2013)

Location: Kinkaku vs Division
Distance: 40 meters
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: Obito and Nagato including Pein Rikudou

Who wins?

S2: SM Hashirama gets full knowledge, Obito and Nagato with Pein Rikudou join the fray.


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## Joakim3 (Jun 25, 2013)

*Scenario 1*
Akatsuki gets utterly utterly fodder obliterated.... they have nothing even approaching the scale/hax of base Hashirama's _Mokuton_ output and _Mokuton: Kage Bunshin_ without Nagato & Obito. 

SM is just the nail in the already concrete filled coffin 

*Scenario 2*
Akatsuki can arguably beat Hashi soley due to _Kamui_ making Hashriama's _Mokuton_ hax utterly irrelevant. Obito can _Kamui_ himself & Nagato to Hashirama's location at will, and simply let Nagato nuke at point blank with utter impunity. And with Nagato's chakra absorption and Obito's senju fusion they can keep this level of fighting up just as long as Hashi

*note I left out all the other Akatsuki members as they would simply be killed in the crossfire nuking between Obito, Nagato & Hashirama

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gibbs (Jun 25, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> *Scenario 1*
> Akatsuki gets utterly utterly fodder obliterated.... they have nothing even approaching the scale/hax of base Hashirama's _Mokuton_ output and _Mokuton: Kage Bunshin_ without Nagato & Obito.
> 
> SM is just the nail in the already concrete filled coffin
> ...







What are your thoughts on Deidara using hiding like a mole and planting bombs everywhere, possible Nanobombs killing Hashi from the inside out which in Scen 1 he will have no knowledge on.He will breathe they will die. Hashi has not shown a Sharingan nor has he shown a raiton jutsu to neutralize them inside his body.


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## Ashi (Jun 25, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> *Scenario 1*
> Akatsuki gets utterly utterly fodder obliterated.... they have nothing even approaching the scale/hax of base Hashirama's _Mokuton_ output and _Mokuton: Kage Bunshin_ without Nagato & Obito.
> 
> SM is just the nail in the already concrete filled coffin
> ...




The plan works if hashirama just stands still like a sitting suck


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## trance (Jun 25, 2013)

S1: Hashirama godstomps.

S2: Obito will be a bastard to beat due to Kamui and Nagato's and Deidara's firepower combined as well as Gēdo Mazo will be trouble for the First Hokage. I say Hashirama takes it extreme difficulty.


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## Joakim3 (Jun 25, 2013)

The Phoenix King said:


> What are your thoughts on Deidara using hiding like a mole and planting bombs everywhere, possible Nanobombs killing Hashi from the inside out which in Scen 1 he will have no knowledge on.He will breathe they will die. Hashi has not shown a Sharingan nor has he shown a raiton jutsu to neutralize them inside his body.



Hashirama IC uses _Mokuton: Kage Bunshin_ to engage his opponents, not his actual self..... all Deidara would achieve is possibly killing a clone, and waisting Akatsuki's only shot of winning

What good is Deidara laying clay mines going to do other than help kill his own teammates when they are trying to defend themselves form the skyscraper sized _Mokuton_ trees attacking them?

And we have zero idea how C4 would interact with SM powered _Byakugo_, so even C4 is not garaunteed


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## Joakim3 (Jun 25, 2013)

TensaZangetsu10 said:


> The plan works if hashirama just stands still like a sitting suck



Please explain how Hashirama escapes Obito & Nagato then..... seeing both are sensors, and you really can't outrun/hide from _Kamui_


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## Luftwaffles (Jun 26, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Please explain how Hashirama escapes Obito & Nagato then..... seeing both are sensors, and you really can't outrun/hide from _Kamui_


 do you think hiding in his Flower World would help? I mean, if Madara could meld in the Mokuton, I can't see how Hashi can't. And being a sensor and all, he can find the other 2 before they find him. Also, if Mokuton contains Hashirama's life energy and chakra, IMHO I doubt sensing or Sharingan will help them find him.

Sensing gets messed up by Mokuton world, ALL containing Hashirama's life force/chakra. And well, MKB with Golems and Wood Dragons...holy fuck. Base Hashi has sensing as well, maybe not like his brother, Tobirama's, but he has it nonetheless.  and even IF Obito gets one of Hashi clones in, that clone will just fuck them up from the inside 

Can you imagine the damage ONE single Hashi clone can do in the Kamui dimension? BoD, Mokuton World, Golems, Dragons 

What's even MORE scary is that Hashi can SPAM these clones, due to the fact he freaking summoned a GOD-level summon. SM Hashi has the chakra to SPARE, the guy can spam Mokuton world, golems, dragons, hands, etc... and Hashi in base is capable of reacting to EMS Madara(kenjutsu and taijutsu) and Kyuubi bijuudamas, and keep in mind all these clones have Byakugo level healing 

Just imagine this Joakim:
SM Hashirama creates 5 clones, in which he proceeds to hide in his Mokuton world while activating Sage sensing. His clones create SETS of Mokuton Dragons, Mokuton Golems, Mokuton hands etc.. all these clones have Byakugo level healing and the ability to react to Madara/Kyuubi. These clones can also MELD in the Mokuton and use hit and run tactics ala Obito, due to the fact that the terrain forming ability they have is MADE from HASHI'S chakra, sensing does SQUAT to the clones. Nagato gets fodderized sooner or later which leaves Obito. Obito gets merked because even if he DOES get a clone in, that clone will unleash HELL in Kamui world.


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## Jinemba (Jun 26, 2013)

Sensing doesn't factor in with Hashirama. The manga didn't say his clones were undetectable to everyone except people who can sense. The manga says that Hashirama's clones are undetectable period. They were even undetectable to Madara who has the sharingan until Madara had fought Hashirama enough times to finally figure them out.

First of all Madara not only has the sharingan but has shown Hashirama/Minato level sensing, being able to sense Hashirama coming to the battlefield from extremely far away. So that is sensing, sharingan and decades of battles with Hashirama and EVEN STILL Madara cannot completely identify Hashirama's clones 100%. Proven by the fact that at Madara vs. Hashirama final battle at the very end Madara still fell for a Mokuton clone and that was their last battle so not much could have changed. No one in Akatasuki can detect a  Hashirama clone, PERIOD. 


Hashirama has a good deal of difficulty here but in the end Hashirama has an answer for everything....

Vs. Deidara: Undetectable clones/SM Nature sensing/
Vs. Obito: Bringer of Darkness
Vs. Summons: Mokuton Dragon
Vs. Nagato: Flower Tree World/Undetectable clones
Vs. Itachi: Undetectable clones/Sharingan Experience

Vs. Akatsuki in General, a combination of undetectable clones, complete land control, bringer of darkness, flower tree world, mokuton dragon, regeneration, top tier sensing, SM. 


Everytime he puts a seal together someone gets GG'd


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## joshhookway (Jun 26, 2013)

C0 wins this one. Zetsu goes away and everyone else dies.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 26, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> C0 wins this one. Zetsu goes away and everyone else dies.



C0 is doing nothing to Hashirama's level of defense. Base Hashirama had mokuton jutsu capable of defending against bijū-dama with Susano'o swords placed through them, and blocking a perfect Susano'o coated Kyūbi's attacks. C0 is strong, but it doesn't compare to that kind of scale.


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2013)

The Akatsuki win both of them. 

1- Kakuzu's wind & Fire jutsus will deal with Hashi's jutsus or most of them, the same with Itachi's
Amaterasu, Diedara can use c4 or making c1 to attack him. with 100 puppets from Sasori Hashi
wont be able to fight the others and focusing on them at the same time. 

2- Nagato alone can give Hashi a hell of a fight. with the others they will stomp him.


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## Gibbs (Jun 26, 2013)

Itachi could always get Hashirama with a well placed & well-timed Tsukyomi.


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## Kind of a big deal (Jun 26, 2013)

Soneone just needs to scratch him, with manga knowledge he wouldn't think twice about it, but if they give that blood to Hidan, it's over. Between Itachi's tsukiyomi and Sasori's plethora of needles, I think they can make an opening where that's possible.


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## Jagger (Jun 26, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> The Akatsuki win both of them.
> 
> 1- Kakuzu's wind & Fire jutsus will deal with Hashi's jutsus or most of them, the same with Itachi's


Lolwut.

Are you implying that Hashirama's Jukai Koutan (a whole barrage of Odama Rasengan was needed to stop Madara's version of it and Hashirama's is obviously much stronger) will be stopped by Kakuzu's combos?


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Lolwut.
> 
> Are you implying that Hashirama's Jukai Koutan (a whole barrage of Odama Rasengan was needed to stop Madara's version of it and Hashirama's is obviously much stronger) will be stopped by Kakuzu's combos?



1- I don't see what kind of 	comparison is this. First the Odoma Rasengan is just a pure chakra
However, Kakuzu's jutsu is wind which CUT through anything. and both of Kakuzu'z jutsus alone
were able to destroy all the trees around. 

2- I don't know from where you got the info that Hashi's wood is stronger than Madara's. There
is no proof for that whatsoever. 

if you have a proof that Hashi's wood will NOT be cut by the wind jutsu, please bring it.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jun 26, 2013)

He wins both.

Tree branch to the temple.

Hashirama style, Buddha Gatling to the face

Sword to the chest

Wood clone to the brain

GG Akatsuki


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## trance (Jun 26, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 1- I don't see what kind of 	comparison is this. First the Odoma Rasengan is just a pure chakra
> However, Kakuzu's jutsu is *wind which CUT through anything. *and both of Kakuzu'z jutsus alone
> were able to destroy all the trees around.
> 
> ...



You mean how Sandaime Raikage was cut by FRS? Or how Hidan was cut to pieces by Kakuzu's Futon


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2013)

Trance said:


> You mean how Sandaime Raikage was cut by FRS? Or how Hidan was cut to pieces by Kakuzu's Futon



1- I don't know what does he have to do with Hashi's wood since his body is MUCH greater
but there you go.
*this is how far they are away from the door*

2- about, Hidan Was not the filler? 

and once again, if you have a proof that Hashi's wood wont be cut, bring it and save time
for both of us.


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## trance (Jun 26, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 1- I don't know what does he have to do with Hashi's wood since his body is MUCH greater
> but there you go.
> Obito's blindside
> 
> ...



I'm not talking about his Mokuton. You said wind cuts through anything.


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2013)

Trance said:


> I'm not talking about his Mokuton. You said wind cuts through anything.



oh. 
don't take it THAT way


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## trance (Jun 26, 2013)

And here's Hidan who was clearly in front of that Futon.
Obito's blindside

No idea bout his Mokuton but can't his Mokuton tanked Susanoo sword slashes?


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2013)

Trance said:


> And here's Hidan who was clearly in front of that Futon.
> Obito's blindside



Okay then, there shall be no denial for that. Sorry, I thought it was filler.


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## Rob (Jun 28, 2013)

Hashi should have some problems in the Second Scenario... 

Obito's Kamui. 
Nagato's Rinnegan. 
Sasori's poison. 
Deidara's Nanobombs. 
Hidan's blood technique. 
Itachi's Tsukoyomi, Amaterasu. 
Kisame's Waterdome. 
Zetsu's uselessness. 
Kakuzu's AoE. 
Konan's Paper Ocean. 

All this shit at once...


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## Jagger (Jun 28, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 1- I don't see what kind of 	comparison is this. First the Odoma Rasengan is just a pure chakra
> However, Kakuzu's jutsu is wind which CUT through anything. and both of Kakuzu'z jutsus alone
> were able to destroy all the trees around.
> 
> ...


1. Hidan disagrees with what you just said.

2. It's not rocket science Hashirama's prowess with Mokuton is higher than the prowess of someone that is just new to Mokuton.


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## joshhookway (Jun 28, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> C0 is doing nothing to Hashirama's level of defense. Base Hashirama had mokuton jutsu capable of defending against bijū-dama with Susano'o swords placed through them, and blocking a perfect Susano'o coated Kyūbi's attacks. C0 is strong, but it doesn't compare to that kind of scale.



C0 makes Madara's bijudama look puny. You don't realize how much 10 KM is.

You can expect a firestorm of temperatures of over 5000 degrees.


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## Luftwaffles (Jun 30, 2013)

Just gonna leave this 

Mach 140+ Hashirama solos Nardoverse.


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## joshhookway (Jun 30, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> Just gonna leave this
> 
> Mach 140+ Hashirama solos Nardoverse.



That calc is flawed as hell. Simple logic disproves that calc. Hashirama saw the other side of the shore where the explosion occur. Meaning the maximum distance of the explosion is no more than 5km. Past that, its physically impossible for Hashirama to see the explosion.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Jul 1, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> Location: Kinkaku vs Division
> Distance: 40 meters
> Knowledge: Manga
> Mindset: IC
> ...



Scenario 1: Deidara easily destroys the buddha summon when he throws a couple of C3's at it... plus the amaterasu itachi casts on it...

mokuton clones will be effective to a point, but fire jutsu for itachi and kakuzu can hold of the mokuton jutsu long enough for deidara to blow the clones to shit using more C3...

Hell, I would say that deidara and sasori are enough to take on SM hashiram and draw...
Deidara explodes himself self sacrifice which takes out everyone except sasaori who was far enough away, but come back to finish off hashirama with 3rd kazekage and 100 puppets jutsu and only has to cut hashiram and he loses to poison...

Scenario 1: Hashirama loses, all times too!

Secnarios 2: Obito solo's... while very watches the strength of who is supposed to be madara Uchiha...
Obito uses his time space displacement jutsu to go under ground and move up through the buddha summon to sneak up on hashirama, pops his head out and uses time space transportation to draw hashirama into the kamui dimension when he starves to death a month later...

Obito beat SM hashirama... Hashirama has no way to hit Obito, much less beat him so all the power in the world means nothing when Kamui allows Obito beat pretty much anyone... as long as he can draw them into Kamui dimension to die of thirst or starve of they have water jutsu...


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## trance (Jul 1, 2013)

@Dragon

Deidara and Sasori beat SM Hashirama? A top tier like Hashirama can't hit Obito but fodder like Fū and Torune can? Kamui makes Obito invincible?


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Jul 1, 2013)

Trance said:


> @Dragon
> 
> Deidara and Sasori beat SM Hashirama? A top tier like Hashirama can't hit Obito but fodder like Fū and Torune can? Kamui makes Obito invincible?



No one other then Minato has even hit Obito directly... and maybe Konan due to her 10 billion bombs.

But fuu and torune never touched him, he touched torune which forced him to take away his infected arm, remember...

1). Deidara alone can self detonate and take out hashirama, his clones and his buddha summon leaving sasaori to clean up who is left... This much is obvious! Deidara's self detonation explosion easily is enough to beat SM hashirama, his many clones and his buddha summon... 
Have you forgotten the scale of the explosion? It was easily the size of the buddha summon of not bigger...


2). No matter how strong hashirama actually is and now much you fan him, he has no way to even touch Obito much less defeat him while Obito has many ways to beat hashirama... Easiest being his KAMUI transportation jutsu to suck up hashirama and leave him to die in Kamui dimension.,..

This is not DBZ... A well placed Kunai can be just as effective as an ultimate bijuudama...


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## trance (Jul 1, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> No one other then Minato has even hit Obito directly... and maybe Konan due to her 10 billion bombs.
> 
> But fuu and torune never touched him, he touched torune which forced him to take away his infected arm, remember...
> 
> ...



We don't wank Hashi, you downplay the shit out of him.

Deidara's C0's best feat is killing Manda and even then his body was still in tact. C0 is simply a large AoE. Tenpenchii was an even larger AoE yet failed to kill anyone.

With full knowledge, Hashi knows how to counter Kamui and won't get sucked up into a dimension and die, at least not as easily as you imply.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Jul 1, 2013)

Trance said:


> We don't wank Hashi, you downplay the shit out of him.
> 
> Deidara's C0's best feat is killing Manda and even then his body was still in tact. C0 is simply a large AoE. Tenpenchii was an even larger AoE yet failed to kill anyone.
> 
> With full knowledge, Hashi knows how to counter Kamui and won't get sucked up into a dimension and die, at least not as easily as you imply.



1). Manda was killed even though he escaped most of the blast... which is why he is intact obviously!
Deidara's sacrifice self detonation blast could easilt destroy hashirama, his buddha summons and some clones he has there with him.. Easily!!!!

You are basing your argument on misrepresentation of a FEAT! prettcy much cherry picking.... Manda was not destroyed completely becuase he missed the brunt of the blast when sasuke wen tin his mouth and summoned them both into another dimension. This is a FACT!
However, without such a technique, SM hashirama, His buddha summon and his clones would be vaporized in such a blast and defeated...

2). Except hashirama has no knowledge of KAMUI and even with knowledge of it.. He has no way to stop Obito from eventually catching him and sucking him into KAMUI without a supper speed jutsu like Minato's or another KAMUI to return when being sucked up.

All you are doing is simply explaining how hashirama will achieve something he has no way of achieving which completely supports my claim of you over fanning. And using preference and preconceived notions to argue for hashirama, not feats as they actually are, logic/reason or even common sense.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 1, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> *Scenario 1*
> Akatsuki gets utterly utterly fodder obliterated.... they have nothing even approaching the scale/hax of base Hashirama's _Mokuton_ output and _Mokuton: Kage Bunshin_ without Nagato & Obito.
> 
> SM is just the nail in the already concrete filled coffin
> ...



I agree with this more or less. Though I'm hazy on scenario 1, simply because Hashirama would have to have a way of dealing with C4 and Sasori's poison. Both of which may be very troublesome to deal with if Hashirama has to deal with other attacks at the same time.

Though I can see Hashirama hacking it with Moku Bunshins. But then there is still C4....



RobLucciRapes said:


> Hashi should have some problems in the Second Scenario...
> 
> Obito's Kamui.
> Nagato's Rinnegan.
> ...



If it happens like this I kind of see Hashirama losing. 

If Obito does this. 
Whilst the Akatsuki land their powerful attacks.
While Zetsu joins the fray by increasing his numbers, copying the chakra of the heavy hitters and contribute to the spam.

It is possible for Hashirama to lose.


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## crystalblade13 (Jul 1, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> The Akatsuki win both of them.
> 
> 1- Kakuzu's wind & Fire jutsus will deal with Hashi's jutsus or most of them, the same with Itachi's
> Amaterasu, Diedara can use c4 or making c1 to attack him. with 100 puppets from Sasori Hashi
> ...



lololololololol

This post is so blatently wrong...i dont even...

Kakuzu aint doing shit to hashi's mokuton, due to the fact that it blocks BIJU DAMA with no damage

and his chakras reverted to normal
and his chakras reverted to normal

Ameterasu burns slow as hell, it'd just make the mokuton more deadly for the rest of akatsuki.

C1's and puppets? (C3 spam doesnt exist.) how about a couple of dragons capable of taking on BM naruto and a golem that can fight 100% Kurama?

and his chakras reverted to normal

Nagato soloing this? 

and his chakras reverted to normal

in his dreams. the rest of akatsuki wouldnt help one bit in the face of that. cept' obito. but he'd get taken down sooner or later by sleep pollens, mokuton blindsides, or clone fients.


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## Language of Life (Jul 1, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> 1). Manda was killed even though he escaped most of the blast... which is why he is intact obviously!
> Deidara's sacrifice self detonation blast could easilt destroy hashirama, his buddha summons and some clones he has there with him.. Easily!!!!
> 
> You are basing your argument on misrepresentation of a FEAT! prettcy much cherry picking.... Manda was not destroyed completely becuase he missed the brunt of the blast when sasuke wen tin his mouth and summoned them both into another dimension. This is a FACT!
> ...



Im going to break one of my own rules and point a few things out. First, Manda did not escape the brunt of the blast. Sasuke clearly states that Manda took a large hit of Deidara's final attack.

[2]
[2]

Although he died, Manda was not blown to pieces nor did he have any open wounds. Hashirama can shield himself from bijudama sized blasts at close range in base. If Deidara's bombs cannot blow Manda to smithereens then they are not getting past Hashi's wood defense and certainly not his SM techniques.  

Second, in scenario 2, OP clearly states that Hashirama does have full knowledge on his opponents, and that does mean he knows about Kamui and the mechanics behind it. Whether he can beat all his opponents in scenario two, im not sure, but he does know about Kamui.


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## trance (Jul 1, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> 1). Manda was killed even though he escaped most of the blast... which is why he is intact obviously!
> Deidara's sacrifice self detonation blast could easilt destroy hashirama, his buddha summons and some clones he has there with him.. Easily!!!!
> 
> You are basing your argument on misrepresentation of a FEAT! prettcy much cherry picking.... Manda was not destroyed completely becuase he missed the brunt of the blast when sasuke wen tin his mouth and summoned them both into another dimension. This is a FACT!
> ...



Was going to reply but *Language of Life* beat me to it. 

Like I said though, you downplay like a friend.


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## eyeknockout (Jul 1, 2013)

scenario 1: this is basically itachi's full susanoo vs a full powered hashirama with power that exceeded the power of EMS madara and the kyuubi. yea akatsuki loses very badly

scenario 2: obito and nagato distract hashirama as itachi goes in for a sneak tosuka blitz


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## joshhookway (Jul 1, 2013)

Actually, the only one surviving C0 is Zetsu or anyone who can teleport. No one is getting out of 10km blast radius + larger fire storm.

Everyone else who survives the intial explosion will melt to carbon.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 1, 2013)

Akatsuki rapes both.

I think people are underestimating the NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ONE AND NINE.

I think people are underestimating the NUMBER OF OPTIONS available to the Akatsuki.  

This is essentially NINE KAGE level shinobi against one Hokage.

Hashirama jutsu are large in scale, but those DEIDARA also specialize is village busting.

And due to Hashirama dealing with eight other Kage's. DEIDARA only has to concentrate dealing chipping away at Hashirama's Mokuton structures.

As potent as Madara's Mokuton variants were. Onoki made short work of most of them. Deidara's attacks are larger in scale. And are more than capable of whipping out trees and stone.

But of course Deidara isn't his only opponent.

Kakuzu's puppets in which have a rather respectable offense when they combine they're fire power. 

Thus far we only have two members of those NINE KAGE, and they are already capable of putting pressure on MOKUTON ON THERE OWN.(AKA the loggers)

Now we implement the benefactors of the LOGGERS.

Starting with Sasori.

He has iron sand that only needs to scratch Hashi.

Or


He has Sasori's puppet army to worry about.(Which only need to scratch Hashi)

Now we implement benefactors of the LOGGERS.

Continuing with Hidan who only needs to draw blood from Hashirama...

And he has EIGHT additional means to do so.

Now we implement the benefactors of the LOGGERS.

Continuing with Itachi whose NONE MOKUTON OBSCURED vision is a problem.

Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are both viable DEADLY OPTIONS.

Continuing with Orochimaru

Who has the ability to FURTHER THE NUMBER ADVANTAGES for the Team Akatsuki...

Konan while not being capable of producing much danger to Hashirama offensively can become quite the nuisance given Hashirama doesn't have an adequate mans to counter to neutralize here ability to turn into paper.

Kisame is there for the lulz, but does possess the ability to alter the battle field.

The problem with this argument is that Akatsuki can deal with any MOKUTON variant.

The problem with this argument is that the Akatsuki does possess the FIRE POWER to chip away at the Buddha Statue.


And unlike Susano the Buddha Statue does shield Hashi....

Hashi would have to worry about too many things in order to effectively survive this match.

Being oneshotted by a MS jutsu...

Keeping Mokuton variants on the field...

Not being scratch by Sasori or Hidan...

Killing off Oro's Adds or countering his regenerative ability.

Avoiding needless distractions from Konan...

If Kisame decides to change the battle field...Diedara could essentially keep all of Akatsuki afloat while limiting the mobility of Hashi's Mokoton variant.(Could luck moving that mass underwater)

This doesn't even take into account C4....

I didn't even incorporate Zetsu....

The problem with Scenario one is neither Obito or Pain are AKATSUKI'S most destructive members.

Obito's attack is small in scale and Akatsuki has several means to Kill Hashi outright...

Pain while being the strongest Akatsuki member doesn't bring much to the table besides more unnecessary fire power and EVEN MORE DISTRACTION.(Both in which are covered by Deidara and Oro respectively)

How does Hashirama survive long enough to kill off NINE AKATSUKI MEMBERS?

The Buddha statue wasn't what dealt with Madara.

The Buddha statue is too LARGE OF A TARGET, it's offense limited to POUNDING AND PRAYING.(Despite it's size it's still PUNCHES in a single direction)

Good luck moving that mass underwater....

How does Hashirama survive long enough to kill off NINE AKATSUKI MEMBERS when he barely was able to deal with an EMS Madara + Nine tails.(Who UTILIZED A GRAND TOTAL OF THREE ATTACKS ON PANEL)

Too many shinobi's, with too many options.

Hashirama isn't hard to kill...

A single Kunai would have done the trick.

SM Hashirama is STRONG, but he isn't suited to deal with Nine Akatsuki members.

EMS Madara with perfect Susano would fair better as one actually has to get through perfect Susano to get to Madara..

One does not have to get through the Buddha statue to get Hashirama.


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## crystalblade13 (Jul 1, 2013)

^ to IpHr0z3nI (Didnt want to take up an unnecassary amount of space with a quote)

First things first, you're 1 vs. 9 argument. Madara said that 5 kage level opponents were CHILDS PLAY compared to hashi. Madara lost to hashi, and beat the 5 kage without too much trouble, once PS came out, they were helpless, hashi beat PS. and yes, I know 5 and 9 arent the same thing, but konan, sasori, zetsu, and hidan are just gonna die quickly anyway, so no big deal. Its 9 kage level ninjas versus a pseudo god of a ninja.

On to the oonoki argument. oonoki has jinton, the akatsuki doesnt. madaras mokuton is inferior completely to hashi's. hashi's mokuton tanks Biju Bombs no problem. the akatsuki will get murdered before they get the chance to eliminate hashi's mokuton, ya know, the: 2 bm level chakra absorbing dragons, the golem  that fought 100% kurama, the forest of flowers that put you to sleep almost instantly, oh, and the statue that makes 100% kurama look like a rat in comparison, that uses THOUSANDS of hands to blow apart PS. Hashi can just hide out in his bijudama tanking wood face the whole time, while his creations wreck everything. 

And itachi genjutsu? hashi fought madara, he aint fallin' for that shit.

Also, akatsuki's teamwork isnt on the level of the 5 kages. hidan and kakuzu maybe, but thats it.

nagato and obito would be the only ones to offer decent resistance, hell if nagato gets a luck shot off, they may injure him severely. but i still see hashi winning.


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## Language of Life (Jul 1, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> *Akatsuki rapes both.*
> 
> *I think people are underestimating the NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ONE AND NINE.*
> 
> ...



I only quoted the things i directly responded to but i also have a paragraph explaining how i feel the fight would go to compare to everything else you said that i did not address directly.

People are not underestimating Akatsuki's numbers advantage. They are power scaling Hashirama's use of Mokuton clones to greater than that of the 25 Madara summoned to keep the 5 kage busy.

Now im not saying that alows him to win, but if 25 moku bunshins had enough chakra to sustain Susanoo while fighting against the five kage then the 25+ moku bunshins that Hashi could summon should be able to use his terrain swarming and overwhelming mokuton techniques. Whether that is enough to beat certain Akatsuki members i am not sure, but it is enough to keep all 9 of them from swarming him at once. Not to mention he has "Great Flower world" ( i think that's what it was called) and "Bringer of Darkness" genjutsu to help avoid having to fight them all at once.

Also, the Deidara/Onoki comparison is not all that valid. The two use very different types of techniques. Jinton breaks down structures at the atomic level. Dei's clay just goes boom. Now thats not to say Deidara is not capable of breaking through Hashirama's wood constructs. From the feats we got in his battles with Garra and Sauske i would say nothing less than C3 would be a viable measure to blow Hashirama's forests (normal trees) away. For more specific defenses like Mokuton golem and Rashomon he is going to need to upgrade to C4 nano bombs and or suicide bomb, but even that is questionable considering golem survived an close ranged bijuu bomb explosion without a scratch on it. 

Overall id agree that Akatsuki has a good shot at taking it with their superior numbers and Hashi's lack of knowledge. It is not at all a rape, however. Although all of them are great fighters, they dont exactly have techniques that mesh all that well. Both Dei and Kakuzu will have to be careful of friendly fire (in fact C4 and maybe even C3 should not even be used) and Kisame massive suiton are just as capable of hindering the other Akatsuki as they are capable of hindering Hashi. Now if things immediately spread out more than the 40 meter starting distance, which is practically inevitable, they will have to worry less about this but still need to be careful about the timing and implementation of their techniques and considering their bickering, lack of shown teamwork (Hidan and Kakuzu are the only two to have worked together), and crazy-ness (Deidara is a nutter who would have killed his teammate to kill his enemy) i dont see any good teamwork coming from the Akatsuki. 

Here is how i see it. Hidan is a non-factor. He just wont be able to get close and Kakuzu can't afford to babysit his crazy ass. Zetsu and Konan can help scope and sense but they cant hurt him and would barley offer a distraction considering Konan can be kept busy with a clone and same goes for Zetsu unless he is hiding in which case he is not all that helpful anyways. That leaves Hashi vs the others and with all the fire power, AOE, MS hax, snakes and poison sand i could see Itachi pulling off an MS amateratsu snipe or maybe Sasori getting in a hit with iron sand and poisoning him. With all that chaos and Hashi's lack of knowledge i can see the Akatsuki taking him down with surprise MS or poison hax. A few of them are going to be dead though (or incapacitated for Hidan). 

This is all assuming they get him before he goes sage Buddha. Akatsuki are screwed if he attacks with that. They may have the capability to to chip away at the Buddah statue but they have nowhere near the fire power to match it's attack. It took rapid fire bijuu bombs infused with PS swords to match Sage Buddha's power output and Madara's PS was still torn to pieces. As for personal defense Hashi can just hide behind his golem, because Buddha AOE is so big (the statue dwarfed mountainsOUNDING AND PRAYING. ) he really does not need to be looking at his opponents to attack, If they are in front of him, they are getting hit by a 1000 fists whether he is watching them or not.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 2, 2013)

crystalblade13 said:


> ^ to IpHr0z3nI (Didnt want to take up an unnecassary amount of space with a quote)


Yea, but I don't like the traditional paragraph format.

I usually address comments sentence by sentence, thus I respond with sentences and short stanza's oppose to full blown paragraphs.



> First things first, you're 1 vs. 9 argument. Madara said that 5 kage level opponents were CHILDS PLAY compared to hashi. Madara lost to hashi, and beat the 5 kage without too much trouble, once PS came out, they were helpless, hashi beat PS. and yes, I know 5 and 9 arent the same thing, but konan, sasori, zetsu, and hidan are just gonna die quickly anyway, so no big deal. Its 9 kage level ninjas versus a pseudo god of a ninja.



-But Itachi is beyond Kage level.

-Deidara bested Gaara of the dessert in the dessert and Sasori is canonically stronger.

-Mei and Tsunade couldn't hold a candle to the the none Konan/Hidan members of Akatsuki.

-Black Zetsu was fighting Mei + Others for the prolong period of time.

You arbitrate Konan, Sasori, and Zetsu would die quickly, but didn't bother explaining how?

Konan can turn into paper. How does Hashirama kill her quickly? How does Hashirama single out Sasori or Zetsu? 

Please refer back to Madara's performance against the Kage's. How successful was he in singling out individual components? I believe the final scene of that encounter was. Please refer back to Sasuke's performance at the Kage summit. How successful was he at single out individuals?

It's a different ball game when facing multiple foes. Hashirama isn't going to be capable of singling out anyone from the Akatsuki. One must remember that he's only has access to one brain...Akatsuki on the other hand NINE, THAT'S NINE DIFFERENT SHINOBI'S DOING NINE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. 

And unlike current Madara. Hashirama's move set isn't that flexible. The Kage's had no trouble dealing with Mokuton, it was successfully by passing Susano + Preda path that produced the most trouble.

You cite Hashi beat PS, but he had the tools to do so.
PS is LARGE, but Hashi's Sage Art: Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands is even larger.

Here the size doesn't matter, in fact it's arguably a hindrance as it's a giant target for Deidara.


Deidara has proven to be very capable of air COMBAT.

Hashirama being a god of shinobi is just a title mate, it's not something to compose an argument off of.

Hashirama for a god has proven to be more than capable of dying by mortals means.

I wouldn't put Hashirama over a shinobi with access to NINE MEMBERS OF THE AKATSUKI JUTSU, much less a team consisting of NINE MEMBERS OF THE AKATSUKI.

Hashirama while powerful isn't Rikudo Sennin...



> On to the oonoki argument. oonoki has jinton, the akatsuki doesnt. madaras mokuton is inferior completely to hashi's. hashi's mokuton tanks Biju Bombs no problem. the akatsuki will get murdered before they get the chance to eliminate hashi's mokuton, ya know, the: 2 bm level chakra absorbing dragons, the golem  that fought 100% kurama, the forest of flowers that put you to sleep almost instantly, oh, and the statue that makes 100% kurama look like a rat in comparison, that uses THOUSANDS of hands to blow apart PS. Hashi can just hide out in his bijudama tanking wood face the whole time, while his creations wreck everything.


The Akatsuki has Deidara, whose destructive power is actually above Onoki's.

Madara's Mokuton being inferior to Hashi's is again talk...Iphr0z3nI only deals in facts, you got to support your opinions better.

Let's screen the clients Mr.

I believe Madara's Mokuton dragon was on the same level to that of Hashi's....

And what's this nonsense about Mokuton tanking Biju bombs? Let's again start reading the manga.

Mokuton caught a stabilized Bijudama. Both wood dragons were history after Bijudama exploded.(Please read the manga people)




No Mokuton dragons with Hashi was high tailing it.

So where oh where are those two BM: Dragons? Where they present in any of the above panel? They are design to subdue Biju's, of which the the Akatsuki or not. And speaking of Biju's didn't the Akatsuki manage to capture 1 through 7?


Those forest of flowers that put you to sleep instantly, A? Yes apparently the Kage's didn't get that memo.


The forest was gone next chapter buddy...

(The manga isn't supporting your points)

But let's continue this discussion shall we.

How does 100% Kurama represent Akatsuki? Did Hashirama put Madara to sleep?

Note that the Biju statue wasn't present in the conclusion of Madara vs. Hashi

So in other words the statue may not have fared as well against Madara as it did the Kyuubi/Susano...

Note your comment fully...The Statue dwarfs Kurama, the Akatsuki members aren't Kurama.

The Akatsuki members have an answer to Bijuu Statue in the form of Deidara.

He may not pack as much power as a bijuu, but he can certainly chip at it.

He may not pack as much power as a bijuu, but he isn't as large of a target as a biju.

This is the same Deidara whose C3 is capable of leveling a village.

As colossal as Kurama was he didn't come close to a VILLAGE. 

Now Sunagakure isn't certainly no Kunai, but it's quite large.

Pay attention crystalblade as this is very, very important.


The only Bijuudama proven to be capable of leveling a village was the Juubi's. Note Kakashi's "It's on a different level than other Bijuudama's"

It wasn't even a major village.

Kurama's has a long way to go by comparison.



> And itachi genjutsu? hashi fought madara, he aint fallin' for that shit.


Oh man, talk about bad arguments.

Who has better genjutsu feats? Better yet who regularly implements genjutsu as a regular part of their diet?



> Also, akatsuki's teamwork isnt on the level of the 5 kages. hidan and kakuzu maybe, but thats it.


How do you know?

The Kage's had no prior experience together but they manage to complement each other just fine.

The Akatsuki operate in pairs last I check, and many of them do so quite well.

You ever heard of the restaurant called McDonald's? You know, the one with the golden arches and cheap burgers? How do they manage to operate efficiently? Here's a hint, they divide the labor.

One person cooks the fries, one cooks the burger. Some employees are serving the customers others are cleaning up, ETC. ETC.

The Akatsuki are nine individuals that are not only very familiar with each other in pairs, but have manage to make a sport of CAPTURING THOSE VERY BIJU'S IN WHICH WERE HANDED OUT BY HASHI LIKE WEAPONS. 

Again Hashirama is kill-able via Kunai.....
At then end of the day, he is perfectly MORTAL.

Hashirama specializes in handling BIJU'S AND BIJU LIKE ENTITIES, the trouble back is that the Akatsuki are certainly above Biju's 1-8. The trouble back is that Akatsuki are more than capable of HARMING BIJUU'S.

Hashirama doesn't have the feats to take on NINE AKATSUKI MEMBERS, thus is why your argument is a "light" as it is. You relied on silly A, B, C comparison is not fully arbitrating your points. You arbitrate things you cannot support or that are inaccurate or misleading. Mokuton dragons didn't survive the detonation of Bijuu Dama, and DEIDARA packs the destructive power of a Biju despite what Mr. Madara claimed.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 2, 2013)

> nagato and obito would be the only ones to offer decent resistance, hell if nagato gets a luck shot off, they may injure him severely. but i still see hashi winning.


Why is that? Nagato isn't the only member of Akatsuki capable of destroying a village.

Nagato would be a great asset, but I don't see him being much more useful than Deidara here. We aren't talking about power level in this situation as again Hashirama is SUPERIOR TO ALL OF THEM INDIVIDUALLY. Nagato entering the fray is going to be assign to a TASK JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. 

Nagato is incapable of movement so he'd definitely be utilizing summons. The problem is......Doesn't Mokuton dragon bind Biju's? I don't think Hashi would have trouble binding BOSS SIZE summons.

The biggest thing the Akatsuki has going for them is their size. Mokuton dragon didn't prove to be much of a weapon against the NONE BIJU MEMBERS of team Naruto.

Obito would be a nuisance and Kamui is certainly formidable, but many members of Akatsuki are capable of killing Hashirama if they are capable of landing a blow.(Again the guy was capable of being killed by a Kunai)

The problem is that you're seeing this fight as one of power levels, when these types of situation never aren't.

The problem is that you are applying too MUCH ABC logic.

Mokuton Dragon and Sage Art: Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands are viable maneuvers against what they are task with doing.(Dealing with Bijuu's) That's why they've only been showcase DOING JUST THAT.

Mokuton against the Kage's was dealt with quit easily....


Naruto proved quite adequately FIRE POWER is the perfect counter to it.

The Akatsuki simply have too many options...

Despite all of Hashirama options, NONE OF THEM BEHAVE AND OR FUNCTION LIKE A SUSANO.

Therefore C4, scratch from Sasori's multiple options, Hidan gaining access to his blood, Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi/Genjutsu distraction could be fatal, explosive tags from Konan, elemental jutsu from Kakuzu, etc. etc.

Do you know how much attention to detail would be required to fight NINE KAGE'S? The fact that you arbitrate Hashi dealing with four without explanation is proof that you aren't sure he's capable of dealing with NINE AKATSUKI MEMBERS.

Do you know how much MORE VERSATILE many of the Akatsuki members are in comparison to many of the Kage's that fight Madara? Madara was facing two TAIJUTSU USERS who couldn't do much more than PUNCH, PUNCH, PUNCH. Madara was also capable of shutting down THE NINJUTSU GAME OUTRIGHT. Hashirama doesn't possess such ability, his defenses aren't near the level of Edo Madara.

He'd be stomp, period. Too much hax, too much room for error, too much DEVELOPMENT FOR THE AKATSUKI MEMBER, TOO MANY WAYS TO WIN FOR THE AKATSUKI MEMBERS.

Those Mokuton variants are cute, but they DON'T REQUIRE NINE AKATSUKI MEMBERS TO DEAL WITH.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 2, 2013)

Language of Life said:


> People are not underestimating Akatsuki's numbers advantage. They are power scaling Hashirama's use of Mokuton clones to greater than that of the 25 Madara summoned to keep the 5 kage busy.


He did? How so?


Perhaps you didn't read the fine print.

Hashirama's clones aren't that powerful.

Now let's compare Madara's Susano in the above to that of his clones.

Thus leads to my question of are you reading the manga?



> Now im not saying that alows him to win, but if 25 moku bunshins had enough chakra to sustain Susanoo while fighting against the five kage then the 25+ moku bunshins that Hashi could summon should be able to use his terrain swarming and overwhelming mokuton techniques. Whether that is enough to beat certain Akatsuki members i am not sure, but it is enough to keep all 9 of them from swarming him at once. Not to mention he has "Great Flower world" ( i think that's what it was called) and "Bringer of Darkness" genjutsu to help avoid having to fight them all at once.


Oh hell no.

Are you using Madara's feats to represent Hashi?

I don't think Hashi has been shown to be capable of producing 25 moku bunshins. He's best showcasing was five, and Madara proved they aren't anything special.

You forget that the Madara in question is a culmination of

Says let's start using actual panel to arbitrate are points....

And the best feat of any clone is...

As impressive as you may thing the above is, that's Yamato level of Mokuton usage.

Surely you think more of certain Akatsuki members than just Yamato level...

Madara pretty much showcased Hashirama's clones are barely fodder.

Let's please stick start sticking to reality, as no clones of Hashi have demonstrated to be capable of using Mokuton on the level of Madara or the real thing. Hell Obito, who supposedly mastered Hashi's power enough to be consider a second Ridoku, hasn't demonstrated MOKUTON FEATS ON THE LEVEL OF MADARA AND HASHI. That's a valiant effort from Kabuto, but far from a FOREST WOULDN'T you say?

You're clearly putting the cart before the horse and daydreaming potential feats for Hashi that haven't come.



> Also, the Deidara/Onoki comparison is not all that valid. The two use very different types of techniques. Jinton breaks down structures at the atomic level. Dei's clay just goes boom. Now thats not to say Deidara is not capable of breaking through Hashirama's wood constructs. From the feats we got in his battles with Garra and Sauske i would say nothing less than C3 would be a viable measure to blow Hashirama's forests (normal trees) away. For more specific defenses like Mokuton golem and Rashomon he is going to need to upgrade to C4 nano bombs and or suicide bomb, but even that is questionable considering golem survived an close ranged bijuu bomb explosion without a scratch on it.


Jinton breaks down structures at atomic level...

But not just Jinton proved to be capable of destroying Hashi's variants. Let's of course examine the finished product. Not as neat as this, but they both manage to achieve the same goal.

Lol Deidara is not capable of breaking through Deidara's wood constructs? Where are they fighting? A forest right? Surrounded by lots of trees composed of what exactly? Ground Zero Mr.

Considering Deidara was capable of destroying a village.

Whose village are composed of stone, I don't think destroying wood would be a problem.

And did you say C3 was needed to blow up Hashi's forest? C3 blows up villages, I don't think Hashi's forest was this big.(Konoha's ground cite)


Hashi's forest was quite small by comparison.


Please examine the radius of C1.


Please start respecting the radius of C1.


He beat Garra with C1.


And if the above isn't enough let's examine C2.


Note he can vary the size of the C2 explosion just like all of his variants.

Deidara can fire MULTIPLE explosion to chain them.

C3 would be solely reserved a certain Buddha statue.

(You need to start implementing the actual panel into your arguments good sir)



> Overall id agree that Akatsuki has a good shot at taking it with their superior numbers and Hashi's lack of knowledge. It is not at all a rape, however. Although all of them are great fighters, they dont exactly have techniques that mesh all that well. Both Dei and Kakuzu will have to be careful of friendly fire (in fact C4 and maybe even C3 should not even be used) and Kisame massive suiton are just as capable of hindering the other Akatsuki as they are capable of hindering Hashi. Now if things immediately spread out more than the 40 meter starting distance, which is practically inevitable, they will have to worry less about this but still need to be careful about the timing and implementation of their techniques and considering their bickering, lack of shown teamwork (Hidan and Kakuzu are the only two to have worked together), and crazy-ness (Deidara is a nutter who would have killed his teammate to kill his enemy) i dont see any good teamwork coming from the Akatsuki.


Knowledge doesn't make a difference, as the task is HANDLING NINE UNIQUE DIFFERENT SHINOBI'S SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Remember Madara's words prior utilizing the Rinnegan? "That's a bit too Much"Nine Akatsuki members whose development were actually proper is a bit too much. 

You cite their abilities don't mesh well, but Hashirama technique are large enough to avoid friendly fire. Perhaps you don't fully comprehend the size of the Buddha statue, it's large enough withstand a C3 but probably not without losing some or most of his arms.
His goal is simply to deal with with Hashirama's Mukoton monstrosities he doesn't have to physically engage Hashi.(C4 has been shown to merely be NANO BOMBS, in which Deidara has shown clear control on what he actually detonates)

The ultimate goal is to get Hashi here. Here he is vulnerable to Itachi's cite base attacks. Here he is vulnerable to Sasori's poison, Hidan's assaults, etc.

Stripping Hashirama of his Mokuton protection, the only protection he has against such an offense is the goal.

As far as Kisame attacks...

Note that Deidara is actually capable of producing several flying clays.

And Konan is capable of flying on there own.

And most of Akatsuki Itachi, Sasori, Deidara, Konan, Oro are more than capable of utilizing aspects or in some cases their entire arsenal in the air.
(Creating another headache for Hashi)

I think you are thinking too much into a combine assault. The labor is going to be divided, they don't all need to go for Hashi.

I think you are thinking too much into a combine assault. They don't need to where Hashi done, most just need an opening to one shot Hashi.

Unlike his rival Hashi isn't protected by a armor of chakara at all times.
Unlike his rival Hashi cannot render the NINJUTSU ASPECT OF BATTLE USELESS.

We are also talking about a mortal Hashi...(This is rape stomp)


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jul 2, 2013)

> Here is how i see it. Hidan is a non-factor. He just wont be able to get close and Kakuzu can't afford to babysit his crazy ass. Zetsu and Konan can help scope and sense but they cant hurt him and would barley offer a distraction considering Konan can be kept busy with a clone and same goes for Zetsu unless he is hiding in which case he is not all that helpful anyways. That leaves Hashi vs the others and with all the fire power, AOE, MS hax, snakes and poison sand i could see Itachi pulling off an MS amateratsu snipe or maybe Sasori getting in a hit with iron sand and poisoning him. With all that chaos and Hashi's lack of knowledge i can see the Akatsuki taking him down with surprise MS or poison hax. A few of them are going to be dead though (or incapacitated for Hidan).


Hidan isn't a none factor because he doesn't actually have to participate to be useful.

If one of the other members of Akatsuki is fortunate enough gain access to Hashi blood he is doomed.

But considering Madara and Hashi engaged in battle on top of their constructs.

Why couldn't Deidara help Hidan into Taijutsu range? It's not as if Hashi has demonstrated to be a GOD in that area. 

Hidan is immortal so simply piercing him with with a Mokuton isn't going to be enough to kill him.

He will also not be alone...Sasori's puppets or variants is going to be opting to the same thing. Itachi with the help of Deidara may capable getting a vantage point to get the drop on Hashi like so.(Too many options, too many shinobi's)

With all the chaos lack of knowledge isn't going to change the situation.

He cannot single out a shinobi, as his techniques ARE MASSIVE.



> This is all assuming they get him before he goes sage Buddha. Akatsuki are screwed if he attacks with that.


How so? The Buddha didn't screw Madara.

How so? Given the Akatsuki aren't strangers to dealing with giants.

Aren't these the same individuals who were task with capturing Bijuu's? Your arguments don't make since.




> They may have the capability to to chip away at the Buddah statue but they have nowhere near the fire power to match it's attack.


I disagree.

Again C3 is capable of tanking out a village.

Perhaps you need a reminder of how large a village is.



> It took rapid fire bijuu bombs infused with PS swords to match Sage Buddha's power output and Madara's PS was still torn to pieces.


But the only Bijuudama to take out a village was....

Please note Kakashi words


Please note Deidara's C0 covers 10 kilometers.

If we assume the village here is similar to the one Juubi destroyed.

Please look at the villages compared to the blast radius.
(Again you need to start using panel)

Considering the explosion of those SEVERAL BIJUDAMA'S WAS THIS and not THIS. I think Madara used several Bijudama's to CUT the Buddha's statue arms like he did Hashirama's little gate here. Madara's jutsu was cutting Hashi's arms not detonating them.

The explosion from that many Bijuudama's would have killed BOTH OF THEM.
Both Hashi and Madara were intact.






> As for personal defense Hashi can just hide behind his golem, because Buddha AOE is so big (the statue dwarfed mountains:them ) he really does not need to be looking at his opponents to attack, If they are in front of him, they are getting hit by a 1000 fists whether he is watching them or not.


That's the worse case scenario as all NINE AREN'T NEEDED TO deal with the golem.(Only one possesses the potential to even harm it)

And why oh why would all the Akatsuki be in front of him?

Deidara flies as does Konan..

Zetsu is capable of blending with the ground.


I love how you try to hype up Buddha AOE when Madara emerged from it just fun.

Sigh...

Let's role the clip of none Bijudama AOE attacks, tell me if you spot a common trend afterwards.


Example A

What's that... They needed Tsundae to survive?

Then what about example B?


Example C


Example D


Example E

LARGE SCALE ATTACKS, have a atrocious record when it comes to offing shinobi's.

The golem statue Dwarfs the size of the Kyuubi...

And the Kyuubi dwarfs the size of a shinobi this wouldn't be the best means of dealing with ANT SIZE THREATS.

You are trying to utilize it in the same manner of Madara's Susano, but it is not. Madara's perfect Susano would be more efficient stepping on shinobi's then trying to punch or slice them with a sword.

The golem was an adequate counter to PERFECT SUSANO AND THE KYUUBI, but it did nothing to Madara. 

The Golem's size was impressive...

The Golem's being capable of damage perfect Susano was impressive.

But it failed to injure or even pose a threat to Madara himself.

It would be much more effective if it was actually showcased to be capable of moving.

It would be much more effective if it was showcased to protect Hashirama.

He has to hide behind it, where as NINE AKATSUKI MEMBERS DON'T NEED TO STAND IN FRONT OF IT.

The fact that your grand plan was "HIDE BEHIND Giant golem"  which hasn't proven to be mobile or effective MICRO TARGETS in comparison makes this a done deal.

What happens if they are all flying?

What happens if Kisame decides to flood the area?

How does this stop C4? Or any other one shots?

Golem is going to wipe out Nine AKATSUKI MEMBERS WHO'VE BEEN DEALING WITH SIZE ALL MANGA LONG. 

Come on people.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Jul 2, 2013)

Language of Life said:


> ]Im going to break one of my own rules and point a few things out. First, Manda did not escape the brunt of the blast. Sasuke clearly states that Manda took a large hit of Deidara's final attack.
> 
> (1)
> (1)



WHat manga are you reading because your own panels says that manda and sauske "took a hit before they went into the other dimension" which is not saying they took a large part of the blast...

Hell common sense makes it obvious manda di dnot take much otherwise he would be vaporized!!

Clearly you are mistaken.



> Although he died, Manda was not blown to pieces nor did he have any open wounds.



Of course not, he was not actually hit by the blast only the pre-blast before they wnet into the alternate dimension.



> Hashirama can shield himself from bijudama sized blasts at close range in base. If Deidara's bombs cannot blow Manda to smithereens then they are not getting past Hashi's wood defense and certainly not his SM techniques.



LMFOA! SO because manda was able to escape most of the blast by going into another dimension, hashirama can live through it... You are high!!! WHat kind of reason is that?

If manda cannot even take a small part of the blast then WTF is hashirama going to do against the full blast? You make no sense at all! All you did was explain to me how madly you over fan hashirama to even suggest he would survive a point blank deidara self detonation blast simply becuase manda was not ash from geting some of the blast, but escaped most of it...

LAMO!!! You keep arguing with such lovely reasoning, it only makes htis easier for me!



> Second, in scenario 2, OP clearly states that Hashirama does have full knowledge on his opponents, and that does mean he knows about Kamui and the mechanics behind it. Whether he can beat all his opponents in scenario two, im not sure, but he does know about Kamui.



Knowing about kamui and having the tools to deal with it are two different things!!

Hashirama has no way to deal with KAMUI, FACT!

Mokuton clones, forrest creation pollen flower, buddha summon, ect cannot deal with kamui... Nothing short of super speed and another kamui can deal with it and Hashiram ahas neither so what is you argument exactly?


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## crystalblade13 (Jul 2, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yea, but I don't like the traditional paragraph format.
> 
> I usually address comments sentence by sentence, thus I respond with sentences and short stanza's oppose to full blown paragraphs.
> 
> ...



Hashirama does not need to single them out. his bringer of darkness would effect all of them. his mokuton clones could provide crowd control easily. his other creations can fight more than one person at once. he can merge into and travel through any of the wood he creates, and that allows for singlin opponents out. And lol. the buddahs size is not a hinderance to hashi. 

i'd like you to explain how akatsuki survive 1000 mountain wrecking hands of death. are they gonna avoid it? maybe deidara and obito, no one else could get out of the way of that kind of AOE. 

And once again deidara isnt gonna matter, as hashi's giant mokuton face tanked biju dama. It seems that not only do you not read the manga, but you dont read my post either. I never said the dragon tanked the blast. it was the giant mokuton face. want proof?

Mr. Madara claimed (explosion goes off point blank) 

Mr. Madara claimed (hashi is seen unharmed, protected by the mokuton face)

He could litteraly hide out in that the whole match, or just create it on top of the buddahs head while it kills everyone. what makes you think hashi would just let diedara fly above him and drop a bomb anyway? He'd punch deidara with the buddah before he got above him.

and about genjutsu again. good luck  trying to have eye contact with a guy whos 5000 freaking feet in the air. especially while hands are raining down on you, clones are trying to blindside you, and dragons are trying to eat you.

How do i know the akatsuki's teamwork sucks? cause most of them hate eachother, have friendly fire attacks, and have only been shown to have been paired with a single other member. you have the burden of proof there anyway. prove they can all work together, despite hating each other.

Hashirama specializes in killing shit, biju or not.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Jul 3, 2013)

If anyone thinks that hashirama can take on all the akatsuki then they are just delusional...

obito is already too much for hashirama on his own because no jutsu hashi has can touch obito while hashirama has no way to avoid getting sucked into kamui land to die later on.
So all obito has to do is literally run through hashirama's Mokuton jutsu, make his way up the buddha summon from inside, all while his chakra signature is gone I might add so hashi cannot track him with sensing abilities, all so Obito can ambush hashirama popping his head out and drawing him into Kamui land to die.

Note: Hashirama has no knowledge of Obito, assuming he is madara while Obito knows everything about hashirama thanks to madara.
Not just that, but...

Nagato alone would be such a hard battle that it is 50/50 he even wins that alone due to deva path's powers..
: Shinrei tensai can overcome any mokuton jutsu at base.
: Bansho tenin can draw in the hashirama off of his mokuton jutsu for direct attacks.
: Chibaku tensai can be created in a larger size then before to trap the buddha summon, taking it out of the fight. Including hashirama, and his clones as well...
: Summon gedo mazo which can use nine dragon seal to take the chakra of anyone or anything it touches and seal away the chakra meaning any mokuton, clones, hashirama himself or even the buddha summon too, defeating hashirama with just gedo mazo.

So a single larger chibaku tensia can end the fight on it's own since hashirama has no way to deal with it.

SO nagato alone is so much of a challenge then how is hashirama going to stop him plus..
: deidara' spamming C3, self detonation attack that alone cna take out the buddha summon, or C4+
:Sasaori's 3rd kazekage puppet with iron sand all covered in the hgihest level of poison that can kill hashirama with a scratch.
: Itachi using his level of susanoo that can deflect any attack while sealing away anything stabbed by the totsuka sword, plus his genjutsu, tsukuyomi and amaterasu that hashirama has never been shown to deal with before.
: Kisame who can easily match level's of attacks at base and can be enough to beat a base hashirama, using water prison and kisamehada mode.
: Kakuzu has iron skin that can stop any base level mokuton jutsu as well as 4 other high level elemental attacks with his 4 other heart/puppets that will be a hell of a fight with high elvle fire jutsu and lightning jutsu to cut through mokuton.
: HIdan does not really matter lol.
Konan who has 10 billion paper bomb attack that can take out base hashirama no doubt and likely do a hell of allot of damage to the buddha summon.

It is just a rapping for akatsuki against hashirama..

Personally.. Deidara and nagato can handle hashirama. Deidara blows himself up taking out all of hashirama's woo djutsu, clones and the buddha summon and if hashirama survives, he will be crushed in CHibaku tensai.

So how is hashirama going ot beat them ALL When deidara and nagato are too much for him at once?


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