# What the hell is up with itachi



## RockyIII (Jan 11, 2015)

We have a manga where a kids brother mentally damages him for life in order for him to go on a quest to kill him so that he could be a hero even though no one would be around to relay the information back that he killed him and it was never mentioned that he wanted to be a hero of any sort. This is after he kills his entire family in their sleep to stop a revolt that his aunts, cousins and uncles would stage against an entire village of families and clans.

He does not reason or compromise with his father, the leader of his family, first, even though his father seemed like a completely reasonable guy, completely accepting his death at his son's hands.

Do not question the logic of this manga.


----------



## Addy (Jan 11, 2015)

i am sorry but when was itachi wrong? all he did was be badass


----------



## Rain (Jan 11, 2015)

Here you go m8

Sasuke uses it to set up a fight


----------



## Revolution (Jan 11, 2015)

It was mentioned in a scene at a bar with ninja hailing Sasuke a hero saying he could return to his village with medals and gold and fame.  Sasuke was disgusted and shocked at the idea of becoming a hero over a lie and a cover up.

Itachi was the sole negotiator between his father and the Konoha Hokage office but it did not work out due to numerous factors that Kishi doesn't care for because he just wants Sasuke to exist as an antagonist no matter how unjust, poorly written, or retconned it has to be.

Can't argue on that last point.


----------



## Bloo (Jan 11, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> We have a manga where a kids brother mentally damages him for life in order for him to go on a quest to kill him so that he could be a hero *even though no one would be around to relay the information back that he killed him* and it was never mentioned that he wanted to be a hero of any sort. This is after he kills his entire family in their sleep to stop a revolt that his aunts, cousins and uncles would stage against an entire village of families and clans.


Six Paths Chakra

The rest of this entire blurb of comments is entirely subjective and isn't based on anything objective.



> He does not reason or compromise with his father, the leader of his family, first, even though his father seemed like a completely reasonable guy, completely accepting his death at his son's hands.




Itachi had a huge argument with his father about this in the streets. Fugaku was the person that planned out the coup, nothing was changing that. In his final conversation with Itachi, his tone massively implies that he had suspected Itachi would turn against him. However, he still stood in his beliefs because that was his philosophy.



> Do not question the logic of this manga.


It's more logical than anything you posted in the OP.


----------



## Kait0 (Jan 11, 2015)

Revolution said:


> *It was mentioned in a scene at a bar with ninja hailing Sasuke a hero saying he could return to his village with medals and gold and fame*.  Sasuke was disgusted and shocked at the idea of becoming a hero over a lie and a cover up.


Come to think of it, this is a fucking genius idea.  Why look for a bounty when you can make the bounty come to you?


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 11, 2015)

the revolt was aunts cousins and uncles from one family against an entire village of clans. It would not have been very dangerous at all. And Fugaku seemed so reasonable. They probably could have came to a small compromise of some sort with Itachi's hel--

"Itachi you did what??!"
"I killed them all in their sleep last night"
"I I was joking!!! What the hell man?"

Also how did those guys find out about Sasuke killing itachi?


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 11, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> the revolt was aunts cousins and uncles from one family against an entire village of clans. It would not have been very dangerous at all.



Uchiha were a strong clan.it would have caused a civil war.and other countries would have taken advantage of this,and attacked Konoha.the results would have been devastating for Konoha.



> And Fugaku seemed so reasonable. They probably could have came to a small compromise of some sort with Itachi's hel--



no Fugaku wouldn't have listened to anyone.that's why shisui was going to use Kotoamatsukami on him.he only didn't fight Itachi because he knew he wouldn't be able to win.



> Also how did those guys find out about Sasuke killing itachi?



there were people who knew that Sasuke killed Itachi.one of them probably spread it.


----------



## Revolution (Jan 12, 2015)

Don't you think if the Uchiha were a strong clan they would have contained the civil war?


----------



## Punished Pathos (Jan 12, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> We have a manga where a kids brother mentally damages him for life in order for him to go on a quest to kill him so that he could be a hero even though no one would be around to relay the information back that he killed him and it was never mentioned that he wanted to be a hero of any sort. This is after he kills his entire family in their sleep to stop a revolt that his aunts, cousins and uncles would stage against an entire village of families and clans.
> 
> He does not reason or compromise with his father, the leader of his family, first, even though his father seemed like a completely reasonable guy, completely accepting his death at his son's hands.
> 
> Do not question the logic of this manga.



Don't forget!

Itachi rigged a Koto Crow inside of Naruto so that he could brainwash Sasuke into being a leaf puppet should EMS Sasuke meet Naruto all to further cover up what really happened (This scenario Never happened because Edo Itachi activated the rigged crow unintentionally)


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 12, 2015)

Punished Pathos said:


> Don't forget!
> 
> Itachi rigged a Koto Crow inside of Naruto so that he could brainwash Sasuke into being a leaf puppet should EMS Sasuke meet Naruto all to further cover up what really happened (This scenario Never happened because Edo Itachi activated the rigged crow unintentionally)



Why didn't he put the crow inside sasuke when he was a kid lying in the blood of his relatives should sasuke ever go evil and go against the leaf? I feel like that would be a little more direct... God damn Kishi definitely just made this up as he went along.



tkpirate said:


> Uchiha were a strong clan.it would have caused a civil war.and other countries would have taken advantage of this,and attacked Konoha.the results would have been devastating for Konoha.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who? No one was around for miles and miles they fought in a completely secluded area.


----------



## Patrick (Jan 12, 2015)

Itachi is a great character but he sure as hell wasn't as smart as people make him out to be. He could've just talked about the entire situation with the clan and how the village already knew of their plans for a coupe. So they could better forget it or be wiped out on the spot or something. I don't know, he could've at least tried.


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2015)

Revolution said:


> Don't you think if the Uchiha were a strong clan they would have contained the civil war?



well,Itachi and Obito were far stronger,and the Uchiha's weren't ready for a attack at that time either.
in Naruto there are strong clans and there're characters who can solo those clans.someone like Hashirama was far stronger than anyone else in his clan,and could solo his clan if wanted.though Itachi still needed Obito.


----------



## Shinobu (Jan 12, 2015)

Revolution said:


> Don't you think if the Uchiha were a strong clan they would have contained the civil war?




I thought it was already discussed, that the Uchiha clan was not strong enough to prevent a civil war, nor to win or contain one. Most likely they would've been killed. concerning how many strong clans and shinobis Konoha has had. The only thing they would've achieved is a weakened position of Konoha.



RockyIII said:


> Why didn't he put the crow inside sasuke when he was a kid lying in the blood of his relatives should sasuke ever go evil and go against the leaf? I feel like that would be a little more direct... God damn Kishi definitely just made this up as he went along.




How could Sasuke trigger a crow with his EMS, that's inside him?


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> Who? No one was around for miles and miles they fought in a completely secluded area.



Sasuke must have told team taka that he killed Itachi.and it probably spread from there.and also people knew that Sasuke wanted to kill Itachi,so when they heard about Itachi's death,they probably just guessed that it was Sasuke who did it.


----------



## Alucardemi (Jan 12, 2015)

Itachi already admitted himself that he fucked-up royally with Sasuke and didn't trust in his strength. People need to let it go abit. The fact that Itachi failed in regards to his brother doesn't make him less of a character, really. It makes him more of one.


----------



## Bloo (Jan 12, 2015)

Patrick said:


> Itachi is a great character but he sure as hell wasn't as smart as people make him out to be. He could've just talked about the entire situation with the clan and how the village already knew of their plans for a coupe. So they could better forget it or be wiped out on the spot or something. I don't know, he could've at least tried.


Yes, it's not like Itachi and Fugaku didn't have a heated discussion about it in the manga... Oh, wait.
Six Paths Chakra
Six Paths Chakra
Six Paths Chakra

To say Itachi didn't try to say anything is just blind banter. The coup was something that had been building up for a very long time and it wasn't going to be stopped. And if Itachi came out and said that the village knew of it, then he would have outed himself as a spy for the village. That is a stupid idea that would have only poured kerosene onto the already very lit up fire. Also, Danzo was set on exterminating the Uchiha, one way or another. There was no way around it.

Honestly, the haters of Itachi are the most hypocritical people I see on this forum. They will call Itachi a Mary Sue character that is portrayed as perfect, and then bring up the most integral part of his character arc, his *failure* of how he handled Sasuke.

Moment of honesty, Itachi handled Sasuke in a very shitty way. Even he has admitted to it. And you know what? That makes him a better character than most in the series. I love that he is human and mature enough to recognize his fault with Sasuke. However, the situation revolving the coup was difficult and it was unavoidable. How he handled Sasuke was all on him.


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 12, 2015)

Bloo said:


> Yes, it's not like Itachi and Fugaku didn't have a heated discussion about it in the manga... Oh, wait.
> attuned to suppressing Kurama
> attuned to suppressing Kurama
> attuned to suppressing Kurama
> ...




In those pages I see Itachi acting like a megalomaniac while his father tries to calm him down. At no point was there ever a talk about the coup or any reasoning about to do it, not to do it, compromise, etc. Itachi's talking about the limits of his own body? Wtf? What does that have to do with anything? Fugaku looks like the sane one in every panel here. This is definitely before Kishi wanted to retcon Itachi


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 12, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> Itachi already admitted himself that he fucked-up royally with Sasuke and didn't trust in his strength. People need to let it go abit. The fact that Itachi failed in regards to his brother doesn't make him less of a character, really. It makes him more of one.



This is not about how bad his plan was. This is about how batshit crazy and off the wall his plan was...


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 12, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> Sasuke must have told team taka that he killed Itachi.and it probably spread from there.and also people knew that Sasuke wanted to kill Itachi,so when they heard about Itachi's death,they probably just guessed that it was Sasuke who did it.




How did it spread from there? A group of terrorists tells a few people that Sasuke killed Itachi or even worse, they guess Sasuke killed Itachi, and suddenly all of Konoha is like "Hey, I guess Sasuke's a hero now... LET'S GIVE HIM MEDALS!!"

There is no way anyone manga or not is that gullible, let alone an ENTIRE VILLAGE of ninjas.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 12, 2015)

Revolution said:


> Don't you think if the Uchiha were a strong clan they would have contained the civil war?


The Uchiha were selfishly trying to gain power for themselves. They were stronger than any other Clan in Konoha.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 12, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> We have a manga where a kids brother mentally damages him for life in order for him to go on a quest to kill him so that he could be a hero even though no one would be around to relay the information back that he killed him and it was never mentioned that he wanted to be a hero of any sort. This is after he kills his entire family in their sleep to stop a revolt that his aunts, cousins and uncles would stage against an entire village of families and clans.
> 
> He does not reason or compromise with his father, the leader of his family, first, even though his father seemed like a completely reasonable guy, completely accepting his death at his son's hands.
> 
> Do not question the logic of this manga.



Thank you, Based Itachi.


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 12, 2015)

Reiji said:


> I thought it was already discussed, that the Uchiha clan was not strong enough to prevent a civil war, nor to win or contain one. Most likely they would've been killed. concerning how many strong clans and shinobis Konoha has had. The only thing they would've achieved is a weakened position of Konoha.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How could sasuke trigger a crow with his EMS that's inside naruto? How does a crow live inside a person? How does the person not know a crow is inside him? What does the crow eat? How does it survive?

Nothing makes sense and both scenarios would be plausible with the logic of the manga.


----------



## boohead (Jan 12, 2015)

It seems so odd and disjointed because he was clearly retconned.  

He was far cooler as a villain.


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 12, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The Uchiha were selfishly trying to gain power for themselves. They were stronger than any other Clan in Konoha.



The uchiha, without Itachi or Obito or shisui, would be a match to every clan together with the 3rd hokage for an extended period of time? The battle would be over quickly.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Jan 12, 2015)

Reiji said:


> How could Sasuke trigger a crow with his EMS, that's inside him?



The crow was rigged to activate the moment Itachi's eyes active MS in front of Naruto.
Sasuke has Itachi's eyes so it would have happen if an EMS were to encounter Naruto before Edo Itachi.


----------



## Shinobu (Jan 12, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> How could sasuke trigger a crow with his EMS that's inside naruto? How does a crow live inside a person? How does the person not know a crow is inside him? What does the crow eat? How does it survive?
> 
> Nothing makes sense and both scenarios would be plausible with the logic of the manga.




He triggered it with looking in Itachi's MS. Sasuke can't look in his own eyes you know?


----------



## Zef (Jan 12, 2015)

Itachi is a shit character who isn't complex in the slightest. His reasoning for his actions are absurd, and he's a terrible human being that Kishi retconned into being a "hero".


----------



## Shinobu (Jan 12, 2015)

Zef said:


> Itachi is a shit character who isn't complex in the slightest. His reasoning for his actions are absurd, and he's a terrible human being that Kishi retconned into being a "hero".




You mean as shit as SasuSaku? Nice try.

There were enough threads with enough people showing that Itachi wasn't retconned at all, 'cause there was more than enough foreshadowing. Tbh, more than SasuSaku ever had.

Aren't you the one always accusing people for a bad reading-comprehension? Well then try it again.


----------



## Bloo (Jan 12, 2015)

Zef said:


> Itachi is a shit character who isn't complex in the slightest.



*Spoiler*: _A Complex Character Definition_ 



A complex character is a type of character that is more than one-dimensional. _He/she changes attitudes and behaviors_ to suit different situations.



If you're going to make a claim that Itachi never changed throughout the series, you're not only absurd, but you're illiterate as well. Itachi is a very dynamic character. He started off as too trusting in his own strength and not believing enough in the strength of others and then recognized this and tried to reconcile this and even went about the path of trying to help someone else recognize this fault in their own life. And, finally, apologized for what he had done to Sasuke and told him that he will love him no matter what he does.

Itachi's character arc, while hated by many, is anything by static. Thus, he is a complex character. The only thing up for question is whether or not you're too dense to realize that.


> His reasoning for his actions are absurd,



If you're talking about the coup, he had no other choices and it was an unavoidable situation. Before you judge him on that, please do come up with an alternate action course that would have successfully avoided innocent people that weren't involved in the coup from dying. The Uchiha made themselves war criminals when they planned the coup. So, please do tell me about your enlightened scenario.
If you're talking about Sasuke, he was a thirteen year old. He was a kid when he decided on what he did. After that, he kind of just had to stick with it. Did he handle Sasuke horribly? Yes. But, cut him some slack. He was a child himself put into a situation that is unimaginable. Furthermore, he voluntarily recognizes his fuck up and apologizes for it. If Sasuke can get over it, you should be able to.



> and he's a terrible human being that Kishi retconned into being a "hero".


It wasn't a retcon. There were many theories floating around with well supported evidence that he wasn't a true villain before the reveal. Everything lines up too well for it to be a retcon. The only opposing claims you can make are Itachi ordering Kisame to attack Kakashi, and not responding to Kisame saying he was going to cut off Naruto's limbs (which can actually be explained by him sensing Sasuke was about to interrupt the encounter). Stack that against the very ambiguous dialogue, expressions, and statements (like when Itachi said he "had to" kill the clan) and you will realize that the coup very well explains why Itachi acted certain ways. A twist is not a retcon.


----------



## Zef (Jan 12, 2015)

Reiji said:


> You mean as shit as SasuSaku? Nice try.


Lost all credibility in the first sentence. 
> Itachi is criticized
> Brings up SS

Was that supposed to hurt my feelings, or change the fact that Itachi is a walking contradiction? The fact you respond with pairing bashing in response to criticism of a character unrelated to said pairing shows that you have no real argument in defending this shit character. 



> There were enough threads with enough people showing that Itachi wasn't retconned at all,


> Uses bias arguments of other Itachi fapboys as proof that Itachi wasn't retconned

There was a thread not to long ago in which I shat on all the flimsy arguments in favor of Itachi.Your argument is no different then theirs; Oh wait, you have no argument.......accept SasuSaku. 



> 'cause there was more than enough foreshadowing. Tbh, more than SasuSaku ever had.


Sorry, but I can't take you seriously after this.The so called "foreshadowing" of Itachi's bipolarity is nothing, but vague panels that Itachi fans have twisted around in order to damage control how terrible the character is.Saying SS has less foreshadowing is both off topic (Again showing you have no argument), and incorrect. Fucking Hagaromo foreshadowed SS seven chapters ago("Hate transforming into love").



> Aren't you the one always accusing people for a bad reading-comprehension? Well then try it again.


Yes, I often accuse people of having poor reading comprehension. Your problem isn't the inability to comprehend.You're just an imbecile unfortunately. Your counter to my criticism is deflecting the topic to a fucking pairing? Get that shit out my face.


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 12, 2015)

Reiji said:


> He triggered it with looking in Itachi's MS. Sasuke can't look in his own eyes you know?



Wait so Itachi predicted that Sasuke would take his eyes after he killed him. Then, upon taking his eyes, he would travel back to Konoha to destroy it. Then, upon his destruction rampage of Konoha, he would meet Naruto. Naruto's crow inside his body (somehow not digested by gastric juices and shat out years earlier), would be activated and brainwash Sasuke into being a patriotic hidden leaf puppet ninja. Am I right?


----------



## Shinobu (Jan 12, 2015)

Zef, I really can't be arsed to give you an answer, 'cause there's simply no way you'd ever understand something like it was meant to be.

Read Bloo's post. Can't add anything to it.




RockyIII said:


> Wait so Itachi predicted that Sasuke would take his eyes after he killed him. Then, upon taking his eyes, he would travel back to Konoha to destroy it. Then, upon his destruction rampage of Konoha, he would meet Naruto. Naruto's crow inside his body (somehow not digested by gastric juices and shat out years earlier), would be activated and brainwash Sasuke into being a patriotic hidden leaf puppet ninja. Am I right?




No. Itachi didn't predict all of that. The only thing he kind of "predicted" was, that all of that _could_ happen. Like he said it to Naruto: Sasuke was a blanket paper, easily to get influenced by anyone. And he asked Naruto, what he'd do, so he knew Naruto would "face" Sasuke at any costs to stop him.


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 12, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> How did it spread from there? A group of terrorists tells a few people that Sasuke killed Itachi or even worse, they guess Sasuke killed Itachi, and suddenly all of Konoha is like "Hey, I guess Sasuke's a hero now... LET'S GIVE HIM MEDALS!!"
> 
> There is no way anyone manga or not is that gullible, let alone an ENTIRE VILLAGE of ninjas.



the same way a news spreads in real world.if i tell someone something,then he spreads the news among 10 other people.

not all of Konoha would think Sasuke as a hero.but it would have been good for Sasuke's reputation.


----------



## hokage5522 (Jan 13, 2015)

Patrick said:


> Itachi is a great character but he sure as hell wasn't as smart as people make him out to be. He could've just talked about the entire situation with the clan and how the village already knew of their plans for a coupe. So they could better forget it or be wiped out on the spot or something. I don't know, he could've at least tried.


 I agree with you. The uchiha did not  get to were they were by being just foolish, and after being told about the leaf knowing about and prepared for the coup, you have to think that the uchiha would have calmed down and given talks a another try. I think back to kimimmaro clan(anime) and how they just wanted to fight even if the battle is hopeless. I think we can agree that the uchiha wasnt like that and would not have rushed to a quick death.


----------



## Jagger (Jan 13, 2015)

>People willing to defend Kishimoto's twisted sense of heroism

This is the same 'big loving brother' that tortured his younger sibling for the sake of making him stronger, despite he's the sole reason of Sasuke's irrational behaviour at times.


----------



## LesExit (Jan 13, 2015)

Itachi's character still forever remains confusing as hell to me O___O!!
The entire massacre is confusing tho...Kishi just didn't go into detail at all...


----------



## Tatijana Moonchan (Jan 13, 2015)

LesExit said:


> Itachi's character still forever remains confusing as hell to me O___O!!
> The entire massacre is confusing tho...Kishi just didn't go into detail at all...



I totally agree with you 

There should have been subtle hints in part 1 that support Itachi not being evil. 
At least give readers a few clues before expanding in p2.


----------



## MonkeyDZoro (Jan 13, 2015)

> Itachi is a great character but he sure as hell wasn't as smart as people make him out to be



I  agree. The whole plan had too many potential complexities for it to be a straight-forward "Sasuke kills him =  becomes hero/restores clan pride". All in all, it was terrible, yet I've seen so many obtuse opinions from people vehemently defending Itachi's character.

It's funny because I'm not that fond of Sasuke, but having a true overview of things, the whole "no other alternative" excuse doesn't wash. Either that or the whole Uchiha massacre wasn't written well enough. Either way, it doesn't reflect well on Itachi.


----------



## Zef (Jan 13, 2015)

Jagger said:


> *>People willing to defend Kishimoto's twisted sense of heroism*
> 
> This is the same 'big loving brother' that tortured his younger sibling for the sake of making him stronger, despite he's the sole reason of Sasuke's irrational behaviour at times.



I don't know what's more disturbing. Kishi trying to sell his twisted morals, or the readers that actually agree with said morals.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 13, 2015)

Well we can defer some blame maybe 30% of Itachi killing his parents and clan on Danzou's coercion. 

As for Itachi's bizare path for Sasuke... yeeeeeah he could have said something like "The only way you can defeat me... is team work and love! "


----------



## OodboO (Jan 14, 2015)

They did fight, Fugaku was firm on his position and he had to have know the implications of what he was doing. If Sarutobi can know it would cause a war, Fugaku would too.

Only Fugaku decided that his family's power and honour are more important than the lives of many others. It was decision made. Done deal.

All Itachi had to work with here was kill family, or not to kill family...
That's it.
-----------

As for fucking up Sasuke to "help him".
That too was explained. 

Sasuke was a wessel for Itachi's need to be both punished and redeemed. He didn't save him because "he couldn't help himself", he saved him because he needed someone to cleanse his soul trough. 

Sasuke was intended to punish Itachi by hating and killing him, and Sasuke will redeem Itachi by living his life as a loved, powerful shinobi thanks to Itachi.

Itachi was using Sasuke much more than he was "protecting him".


----------



## Shinobu (Jan 14, 2015)

Jagger said:


> >People willing to defend Kishimoto's twisted sense of heroism
> 
> This is the same 'big loving brother' that tortured his younger sibling for the sake of making him stronger, despite he's the sole reason of Sasuke's irrational behaviour at times.




What both, Itachi himself and we, already agreed was a failure and not necessary.




			
				Zef said:
			
		

> I don't know what's more disturbing. Kishi trying to sell his twisted morals, or the readers that actually agree with said morals.




'Cause morals =/= morals, what a pairing fan, defending a pairing like SasuSaku, should know.
This is so hypocritical.


----------



## Kusa (Jan 14, 2015)

Zef said:


> Sorry, but I can't take you seriously after this.The so called "foreshadowing" of Itachi's bipolarity is nothing, but vague panels that Itachi fans have twisted around in order to damage control how terrible the character is.Saying SS has less foreshadowing is both off topic (Again showing you have no argument), and incorrect. Fucking Hagaromo foreshadowed SS seven chapters ago("Hate transforming into love").



Don't forget who transformed Sasukes hatred into love. It was not Sakura.

Just sayin.


----------



## Bloo (Jan 14, 2015)

Tatijana Moonchan said:


> I totally agree with you
> 
> There should have been subtle hints in part 1 that support Itachi not being evil.
> At least give readers a few clues before expanding in p2.


Did you not pay attention at all in Part I? There are plenty of hints. People just are too stubborn to pay attention to them... I and many other people had a feeling Itachi's motives weren't as they appeared back in Part I... Such as him telling Sasuke on that night that he "had to" kill the clan. That's a pretty huge fucking clue to the fact that he had to do it given the circumstances. And it's very contrary to what he said after that stating that he wanted to to test his powers.

There were _many_ hints in Part I.


----------



## Zef (Jan 14, 2015)

Reiji said:


> What both, Itachi himself and we, already agreed was a failure and not necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again bringing up SS instead of debating the actual topic at hand.


Kusanagi said:


> Don't forget who transformed Sasukes hatred into love. It was not Sakura.
> 
> Just sayin.



Did I say it was Sakura?

You guys are trying way to hard. Can't form a coherent defense for Itachi so take shots at SS as if I give a shit. If you want to discuss SS make a thread on it so I can tear your arguments apart.This isn't the thread for that.


----------



## Kusa (Jan 14, 2015)

Zef said:


> Again bringing up SS instead of debating the actual topic at hand.
> 
> 
> Did I say it was Sakura?
> ...



Itachi ?

I did not even come here to defend Itachi or to 'badmouth' your otp. It was just that you used the wrong example to show how your otp was foreshowed, because what  Hagoromo said had nothing to do with that. His words were for Naruto. Now, if you had given the shitty eyesmex thing or how you SS fans call it as an example, then you would have had a point.


----------



## Shinobu (Jan 14, 2015)

Zef said:


> You guys are trying way to hard. Can't form a coherent defense for Itachi so take shots at SS as if I give a shit. If you want to discuss SS make a thread on it so I can tear your arguments apart.This isn't the thread for that.




Actually you're not even worth an answer, 'cause you won't understand it anyway, and discussing with someone as subjective as you are doesn't make sense at all.

But you were the one coming in this thread bashing Itachi without any arguments, ignoring people like Bloo who have taken the trouble to show you in a well-founded way what was wrong about your statement, accusing people to have twisted morals, when they try to understand or discuss Itachi's actions.

I just can't stand your double standards. A pairing, where one part tried to kill the other 3 times is totally okay for you, and you can understand it without even questioning it, but how dare there are people trying to explain and understand what Itachi did, they must have twisted morals!




			
				Tangle said:
			
		

> lmao zef you're slaying these hoes




Stop calling others a hoe.


----------



## Zef (Jan 14, 2015)

Kusanagi said:


> Itachi ?
> 
> I did not even come here to defend Itachi


 Then why are you derailing the thread?



> or to 'badmouth' your otp.It was just that you used the wrong example to show how your otp was foreshowed,


SS has more foreshadowing then 693 .  That's just the most recent chapter with said foreshadowing. 



> because what  Hagoromo said had nothing to do with that. His words were for Naruto.


Who the words were directed to doesn't determine the foreshadowing.

*Spoiler*: __ 



 The entire chapter is titled "Once again", and depicts Sakura "once again" confessing to Sasuke. We then get a speech from Kakashi, and Hagaromo about love that takes up most of the chapter except the last two pages.
The entire point of the conversation between Kakashi, and Hagaromo is how Sasuke doesn't have to follow Madara's footsteps, and can eventually be turned away from the cycle of hatred.Now of course Hagaromo was expecting Naruto to cause this change in Sasuke, but that was never my point.

Kakashi talks about Sakura's love for Sasuke:


Hagaromo follows up where Kakashi left off by talking about his love for his sons:


In the first page I posted, you have Sasuke remembering the love he lost(His Family) right after Kakashi talks about Sakura's love for him.Then we have Hagaromo saying Sasuke is the way he Is because of the love he lost (Again his Family), and then Kakashi asking if Sasuke will end up like Madara; Hagaromo then responds with this:


Sasuke eventually let's go of the loss he experienced in the past, and accepts his "new" Family. 

At the same time Naruto fulfills his promise to Sakura:


THAT is foreshadowing.  Hagoromo pretty much told the readers in 693 that Sasuke would be redeemed, and return Sakura's feelings. That's why he's an official member of the SS FC.



Shots fired.


Reiji said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is no need to be upset.....


----------



## Dark Forces (Jan 14, 2015)

itachi simply is the most epic retcon in mangahistory :

because kishi did not retcon itachi, itachi did retcon kishi :


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 14, 2015)

What was the point of Itachi talking like a psycho megalomaniac about seeking how far his body can go and all you talk about is the clan, the clan, the clan. How is that peaceful debate and reasoning about the revolt?


----------



## Bloo (Jan 14, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> What was the point of Itachi talking like a psycho megalomaniac about seeking how far his body can go and all you talk about is the clan, the clan, the clan. *How is that peaceful debate and reasoning about the revolt?*


You say that as if you know, with full certainty, that we saw everything there is to know about the situation of the coup. 

If you know anything about characterization, then you'll realize that Itachi's only lost his temper and patience once. In the entire manga, Itachi has lost his patience once. That time when we saw him lecture his clansmen and father. Do you really think, with that very important detail in mind, that that was undoubtedly the only time that Itachi tried to reason with them?

Quit acting like you know the entirety of the situation. We don't know shit about Itachi's efforts. Why? Kishimoto. However, we do know that there is a lot we don't know and because of that, you can't act like things we didn't see never happened. Quit being simpleminded and think a little harder about the plot behind the coup and you may not be as confused.


----------



## Vermin (Jan 14, 2015)




----------



## tupadre97 (Jan 14, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> the revolt was aunts cousins and uncles from one family against an entire village of clans. It would not have been very dangerous at all. And Fugaku seemed so reasonable. They probably could have came to a small compromise of some sort with Itachi's hel--
> 
> "Itachi you did what??!"
> "I killed them all in their sleep last night"
> ...



The whole coup never made any sense to begin with. How is a bunch of fodder that can get soloed by Itachi, Tobi, and maybe some anbu root members at night with no one noticing going to plunge the entire fire country into civil war? The only way they could would be if they had some jonin on their side but we don't know if they ever did. There's no way they would have been a real threat to konoha. The reason why they were killed was because danzo was a sick bastard and itachi was an ignorant child that didn't know how to think for himself.





tkpirate said:


> *Uchiha were a strong clan.it would have caused a civil war.*and other countries would have taken advantage of this,and attacked Konoha.the results would have been devastating for Konoha.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They got fodderized by two ppl at night with no one in the rest of the entire village even realizing it. There's no way they could have been a threat to konoha.


Reiji said:


> I thought it was already discussed, that the Uchiha clan was not strong enough to prevent a civil war, nor to win or contain one. Most likely they would've been killed. concerning how many strong clans and shinobis Konoha has had. *The only thing they would've achieved is a weakened position of Konoha.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bullshit. Konoha was attacked twice in the main timeline (completely destroyed the second time) yet nobody attacked them and they were still able to project power. If the uchiha would have revolted it would have failed the same way orochimaru's attack did.


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 14, 2015)

Bloo said:


> You say that as if you know, with full certainty, that we saw everything there is to know about the situation of the coup.
> 
> If you know anything about characterization, then you'll realize that Itachi's only lost his temper and patience once. In the entire manga, Itachi has lost his patience once. That time when we saw him lecture his clansmen and father. Do you really think, with that very important detail in mind, that that was undoubtedly the only time that Itachi tried to reason with them?
> 
> Quit acting like you know the entirety of the situation. We don't know shit about Itachi's efforts. Why? Kishimoto. However, we do know that there is a lot we don't know and because of that, you can't act like things we didn't see never happened. Quit being simpleminded and think a little harder about the plot behind the coup and you may not be as confused.




Didn't he lose his temper and when he went psychotic against sasuke in their fight? Wtf was that about? You said you would provide proof of a heated discussion about the revolt. All I saw was itachi acting like a psycho and babbling about power for some reason while fugaku tried to calm him down. 

There was no clear peaceful discussion about compromise and the revolt, which would be the most important part of this. It was just told to us through retcon. Itachi's psycho moments were washed away and he is called a pacifist which is one of the most ridiculous statements in manga history.


----------



## Jagger (Jan 14, 2015)

Reiji said:


> What both, Itachi himself and we, already agreed was a failure and not necessary.


Well, that's true and my behaviour came to be a little arrogant, so I apologize.

But the main point is how Kishimoto went such big lenghts to somehow glorify Itachi and make it seem as if he did a great job. In Sasuke's mind, he was the loving and flawless great brother. Maybe he originally thought he was flawed about his reasoning about Konoha, but not by the end of the series.


----------



## Shinobu (Jan 14, 2015)

tupadre97 said:


> Bullshit. Konoha was attacked twice in the main timeline (completely destroyed the second time) yet nobody attacked them and they were still able to project power. If the uchiha would have revolted it would have failed the same way orochimaru's attack did.




A civil war is much more damaging, 'cause it destroys the structure within a village. Who knows who would have joined the Uchihas? And who would have not? How many Jounins and ANBUs would've died?

At that time there was no Naruto around to just save the village. And you can't encounter other villages or enemies, if you're split up.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 14, 2015)

Reiji said:


> Who knows who would have joined the Uchihas? And who would have not? How many Jounins and ANBUs would've died?




Oh no, we're having this conversation again. Who knows? Maybe a lot of people would have joined happily, and they would have abolished slavery and started a new United States of Konoha. Who knows?


----------



## Bloo (Jan 14, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> Didn't he lose his temper and when he went psychotic against sasuke in their fight? Wtf was that about?




Yes, because that was authentically Itachi just being himself. Furthermore, his acting never portrayed someone losing his temper...


> You said you would provide proof of a heated discussion about the revolt. All I saw was itachi acting like a psycho and babbling about power for some reason while fugaku tried to calm him down.


If you can't understand how pertinent that was to the coup, you're dense as hell. Itachi was clearly criticizing the clan's obsession with themselves about something they weren't even sure of was happening (discrimination).


> There was no clear peaceful discussion about compromise and the revolt, which would be the most important part of this. It was just told to us through retcon.


No it wasn't. It was told to us. Flat out. It's just people like you that want to deny those statements so that there's something to argue about. It's rather pathetic.


> Itachi's psycho moments were washed away and he is called a pacifist which is one of the most ridiculous statements in manga history.


A pacifist is someone who despises war. Itachi gave up his entire life to prevent one from happening. Sounds like a pacifist to me.


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 14, 2015)

Bloo said:


> Yes, because that was authentically Itachi just being himself. Furthermore, his acting never portrayed someone losing his temper...
> 
> If you can't understand how pertinent that was to the coup, you're dense as hell. Itachi was clearly criticizing the clan's obsession with themselves about something they weren't even sure of was happening (discrimination).
> 
> ...



So acting authentically like himself means acting like a psycho? Are you agreeing with me?

Yes it was told to us through retcon. And it didn't make sense. That's what I'm saying! And it doesn't make sense if you think of what Kishi is making us swallow.

And pacifists don't just despise war. They despise all violence in generally buddy. Look up the definition before posting next time...


----------



## Shinobu (Jan 14, 2015)

Lammy said:


> Oh no, we're having this conversation again. Who knows? Maybe a lot of people would have joined happily, and they would have abolished slavery and started a new United States of Konoha. Who knows?




Nah, I don't really intend to discuss this. It's just something history learned us. After a Coup d'Etat and a following Civil War a "Nation" is weakened. That's a fact no one can actually deny.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 14, 2015)

Ironically the amount of people that died would have been less than the ones that eventually did in the 4th Shinobi war. Respect to Itachi for admitting he was a huge failure at the end :'(


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 14, 2015)

tupadre97 said:


> They got fodderized by two ppl at night with no one in the rest of the entire village even realizing it. There's no way they could have been a threat to konoha.



did you read my other post?probably didn't.let me say it again.there are strong clans and there are ninja's who can solo them.

remember what pain was doing to konoha on his own?
Itachi and Obito combined are stronger than pain.just because Uchiha clan got killed by Itachi and Obito dosen't mean they were weak.if they were weak for that,then that means Konoha must be weak too for almost getting solo'd by pain.there was Madara who was buttfucking the entire alliance on his own.that dosen't mean that the alliance was weak,that means Madara was too strong.



> Bullshit. Konoha was attacked twice in the main timeline (completely destroyed the second time) yet nobody attacked them and they were still able to project power. If the uchiha would have revolted it would have failed the same way orochimaru's attack did.



those were not civil wars.a civil war makes a country weak from inside.also that second time Konoha had a ninja who defeated pain.and pain revived all the Konoha's dead ninjas.so obviously other villages wouldn't have the balls to attack Konoha at that time.


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 15, 2015)

Bloo said:


> Did you not pay attention at all in Part I? There are plenty of hints. People just are too stubborn to pay attention to them... I and many other people had a feeling Itachi's motives weren't as they appeared back in Part I... Such as him telling Sasuke on that night that he "had to" kill the clan. That's a pretty huge fucking clue to the fact that he had to do it given the circumstances. And it's very contrary to what he said after that stating that he wanted to to test his powers.
> 
> There were _many_ hints in Part I.




Show us these "hints" from part 1. I'm curious. Any panels?


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 15, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> Show us these "hints" from part 1. I'm curious. Any panels?



Deidara bragged about his final move and how threatening it is 

^ take a look at what Kisame said to Itach.''you still miss your village,don't you'.'

it's just one there're probably more.


----------



## Bloo (Jan 15, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> Show us these "hints" from part 1. I'm curious. Any panels?







Lammy said:


> Ironically the amount of people that died would have been less than the ones that eventually did in the 4th Shinobi war. Respect to Itachi for admitting he was a huge failure at the end :'(


This is the dumbest thing I've read in a while. Itachi stopping the 4th Shinobi World War in no way permanently ends the possibility of it happening from another threat. He stopped the Uchiha from causing it, he didn't stop Obito from doing it.

Please take a class in logic because you seem to lack any logical thought process to have tried to pass that off as a sensible contention.


----------



## LesExit (Jan 15, 2015)

I just felt like the manga was constantly trying to make out Itachi's actions to make sense, but they still never did in my mind. I think the massacre needed much more focus to really understand the decision making


----------



## Bloo (Jan 15, 2015)

LesExit said:


> I just felt like the manga was constantly trying to make out Itachi's actions to make sense, but they still never did in my mind. I think the massacre needed much more focus to really understand the decision making


To me, they make perfect sense. Itachi deciding to participate or not did not decide the fate of the Uchiha. The Uchiha, one way or another, would have been wiped out (whether a war happened or not). Danzo would assuredly eradicate them. However, Itachi did what he did to spare Sasuke and to prevent the possibility of a war and the absolute event of Konoha being severely weakened as a whole. The Uchiha doomed themselves to eradication.

However, I do agree that it could have used more exploration. But I don't see it as being that complicated, overall.


----------



## LesExit (Jan 15, 2015)

Bloo said:


> To me, they make perfect sense. Itachi deciding to participate or not did not decide the fate of the Uchiha. The Uchiha, one way or another, would have been wiped out (whether a war happened or not). Danzo would assuredly eradicate them. However, Itachi did what he did to spare Sasuke and to prevent the possibility of a war and the absolute event of Konoha being severely weakened as a whole. The Uchiha doomed themselves to eradication.
> 
> However, I do agree that it could have used more exploration. But I don't see it as being that complicated, overall.


Ya you know I still feel like I'm looking at a box of oreo cookies right now you know ?


----------



## Lammy (Jan 15, 2015)

Bloo said:
			
		

> This is the dumbest thing I've read in a while. Itachi stopping the 4th Shinobi World War in no way permanently ends the possibility of it happening from another threat. He stopped the Uchiha from causing it, he didn't stop Obito from doing it.
> 
> Please take a class in logic because you seem to lack any logical thought process to have tried to pass that off as a sensible contention.



You know, I am on your side with the thoughts on Itachi but frankly, you're actually being an ass.

I was simply making an observation based purely on a numbers game if we are talking about Itachi's _motivation_ to 'saving lives and avoiding war'. 

Itachi "didn't stop Obito" from doing it, why? Itachi is again directly involved as is another Uchiha. It's a bigger threat than the coup and also will inevitable involves Sasuke too. Props for the half-assed amaterasu in eye trick though.

The obvious answer is that Itachi isn't exactly the "pacifist" as some posters here are implying. He is a flawed complex guy, who probably shouldn't have killed his family, tortured his bro, and instead should have just mellowed out and eaten sweet dumplings.


----------



## Overhaul (Jan 15, 2015)

[YOUTUBE]tQmEd_UeeIk[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Bloo (Jan 15, 2015)

Lammy said:


> You know, I am on your side with the thoughts on Itachi but frankly, you're actually being an ass.
> 
> I was simply making an observation based purely on a numbers game if we are talking about Itachi's _motivation_ to 'saving lives and avoiding war'.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to be an ass. But it was a stupid point to say Itachi failed in preventing the 4th Shinobi World War. I don't even care to further elaborate on it.


----------



## Jυstin (Jan 15, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> We have a manga where a kids brother mentally damages him for life in order for him to go on a quest to kill him so that he could be a hero even though no one would be around to relay the information back that he killed him and it was never mentioned that he wanted to be a hero of any sort. This is after he kills his entire family in their sleep to stop a revolt that his aunts, cousins and uncles would stage against an entire village of families and clans.
> 
> He does not reason or compromise with his father, the leader of his family, first, even though his father seemed like a completely reasonable guy, completely accepting his death at his son's hands.
> 
> Do not question the logic of this manga.




When Itachi was behind his mother and father, poised to kill them, what was their response?

They showed no signs of backing down or reconsidering, at all. They only told Itachi that they were proud of him, despite the path he'd chosen, keeping it clear that that was HIS path and not theirs, indicating that they still held true to their convictions even when they were staring death in the face for said convictions.

Shisui himself even said that the Uchiha could not be stopped, which is why he resorted to his last ditch effort, Kotoamatsukami.

How reasonable could Fugaku be if he was planning the coup in the first place? Even a person of average intelligence can see the repercussions that would have.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 15, 2015)

Bloo said:


> I'm not trying to be an ass. But it was a stupid point to say Itachi failed in preventing the 4th Shinobi World War. I don't even care to further elaborate on it.



It's only stupid because you are wrong for calling Itachi a pacifist. 

It's undeniable that his actions contributed to the loss of countless lives during the 4th war because he was helping the very organisation (flimin Uchiha Tobito/Madara) that got there. And Sasuke too. Itachi worse spy ever, worse brother and son award ever. He's lucky he was brought back from the dead to fix that very obvious mistake, because the bad guys would have won lol.

I said Itachi considers himself a failure. Because his goals are muddled. They're compromised. They're violent and contradictory. Hence why this thread exists and why Itachi gets so much discussion. It's interesting.


----------



## Jυstin (Jan 15, 2015)

This again? Itachi was a ninja. Ninja don't have the luxury of being a pacifist by default, and no one ever stated he was a pacifist.

Also when he was in the Akatsuki, he purposely kept them from attacking Konoha and actually going after Naruto while he was alive. This directly stalled out Obito's plan, which required the capture or Naruto.

Even so, Itachi's involvement with Akatsuki had nothing to do with the actual coup or massacre, so in no way, shape, or form could the war be blamed on the events of the massacre. No amount of faulty logic can justify this.

He considered himself a failure because he saw, in hindsight, that Sasuke's involvement _could_ have stopped the coup peacefully. *Maybe*. It had _nothing_ to do with the war they were in.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 15, 2015)

Jυstin said:


> This again? Itachi was a ninja. Ninja don't have the luxury of being a pacifist by default, and no one ever stated he was a pacifist.



Agreed.



> Even so, Itachi's involvement with Akatsuki had nothing to do with the actual coup or massacre, so in no way, shape, or form could the war be blamed on the events of the massacre. No amount of faulty logic can justify this.



Agreed.

I was talking about how tiny the deaths of the Uchiha clan (and/or the entire destruction of Konoha from a possible civil war) _compared _to the amount of deaths that Akatsuki could (and did) become capable of in the inevitable war arc.



> when he was in the Akatsuki, he purposely kept them from attacking Konoha and actually going after Naruto while he was alive. This directly stalled out Obito's plan, which required the capture or Naruto.



Ya see, I've always had a problem with this. With the exception of capturing Naruto - Akatsuki still had 7 Tailed beasts under Itachi's tenure with them.

Did Itachi actually think Tobidara would be incredibly incompetent? Or did Itachi have a lot of faith in Pain's actual plan of Bijuu bombing cities as a deterrent? What if Pain destroyed Konoha? 

Clearly Itachi doesn't quite give two shits about saving lives as everyone else hypes him up to be!


----------



## Jυstin (Jan 15, 2015)

Well think of it this way.

Had Itachi not acted and allowed the coup to happen, and the resulting civil war and 4th Shinobi War, that wouldn't have stopped the war Obito caused. That would have just been the 5th Shinobi War, and the overall death toll would be even higher and Konoha (along with the other nations) would be at an even greater disadvantage with all the men they would have lost in the the 4th Shinobi War that resulted from the coup.

They probably would have gotten destroyed by Madara.

Itachi's job was not to stop the Akatsuki. It was to spy on them. If he didn't play along, he wouldn't be able to stay undercover and continue spying and keeping their actions in check (to the best of his ability), and there's no way he could have stopped them on his own. Had he defied them, he'd no longer be a member and wouldn't be able to ensure Naruto's safety. Losing Itachi would not be a detriment to the organization, as the Akatsuki captured only their assigned Bijuu as we've seen (meaning it's highly unlikely he helped with the other Bijuu captures if he wasn't even trying to capture his own assigned target), and they could still perform the sealing ritual without Itachi. It would just take a bit longer.

Itachi not doing anything to stop them isn't exactly true. He did a lot to stop them (short of outright destroying them) by NOT outright opposing them.


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 16, 2015)

Lammy said:


> Itachi "didn't stop Obito" from doing it, why? Itachi is again directly involved as is another Uchiha. It's a bigger threat than the coup and also will inevitable involves Sasuke too. Props for the half-assed amaterasu in eye trick though..



it's because Itachi knew that he could never defeat Obito.logically thinking Itachi had no answer to Obito's Kamui.

as for capturing the Bijuu's,akatsuki would have captured them anyway,dosen't matter if Itachi was there or not.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 16, 2015)

We've never seen Konoha act or benefit from information, if any, from Itachi the spy. 

What I'm saying is, Itachi did a full measure when it came to the Uchiha coup, but only  did a half measure on Akatsuki. It wasn't his job to stop them, but it should have been.

Did he need Danzou to sugarcoat the mission again like: "Itachi. Destroy Akatsuki. Or I can't promise Sasuke's protection!"

And I firmly believe Itachi could solo Obito and Nagato. Obito said he was scared of him, and Nagato got defeated as an Edo. Soo... yeah... whutever-ninja aids, bye Itachi!!!


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 16, 2015)

Lammy said:


> What I'm saying is, Itachi did a full measure when it came to the Uchiha coup, but only  did a half measure on Akatsuki. It wasn't his job to stop them, but it should have been.
> Did he need Danzou to sugarcoat the mission again like: "Itachi. Destroy Akatsuki. Or I can't promise Sasuke's protection!"
> And I firmly believe Itachi could solo Obito and Nagato. Obito said he was scared of him, and Nagato got defeated as an Edo. Soo... yeah...



but he couldn't have stoped akatsuki.

only space time jutsu users could fuck with Obito.Itachi had no such jutsu's.plus he was sick.he would have defeated by Obito.

fight against Nagato was a 3 vs 1 fight.even then Kabuto was controlling Nagato.even then Itachi on his own wouldn't have been able to destroy Nagato's CT.

people really like to overhype Itachi's powers,when he isn't that strong compared to others.


----------



## Jυstin (Jan 16, 2015)

Itachi trying to oppose the Akatsuki outright would have been the stupidest and least effective decision in his position. He'd have more to deal with than just Obito and Nagato.

And Danzou wasn't really sugarcoating anything. He was blackmailing Itachi, using Sasuke for leverage.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 16, 2015)

That's the ironic thing. Itachi didn't oppose Akatsuki whatever. He's actively contributing to the possible deaths of thousands/millions of people in the future. He played his cover convincingly because he did everything they asked!  Except maaaybe say "Naruto is wit Jiraiya, too tough. we'll get Roshi instead. Hidan, Kakuzu, cud u guys plz do it? k thx"

What the hell Itachi!



			
				Justin said:
			
		

> And Danzou wasn't really sugarcoating anything. He was blackmailing Itachi, using Sasuke for leverage.



You're misunderstanding me. We know Itachi wanted to play the bad guy to give Sasuke something heroic to do. But once Akatsuki becomes such a big danger to the ninja world and Sasuke himself - what I mean is, Danzou could have sugarcoated an order for Itachi to drop the charade and fight for the good of Sasuke and the village.


----------



## Bonly (Jan 16, 2015)

Lammy said:


> It wasn't his job to stop them, but it should have been.



How would he do such though? Apparently all of the Akatsuki never met up throughout seven years and whenever they do meet up they use those image projection things while only two members are physically present at the place they met up. 



> And I firmly believe Itachi could solo Obito and Nagato. Obito said he was scared of him, and Nagato got defeated as an Edo. Soo... yeah... whutever-ninja aids, bye Itachi!!!



Just because you believe Itachi could solo them doesn't mean he actually can so it's not fair to hold that against when he can't solo them.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 16, 2015)

Itachi did not even give any info whatsoever about the Akatsuki to konoha. What a great spy.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 16, 2015)

Bonly said:


> How would he do such though? Apparently all of the Akatsuki never met up throughout seven years and whenever they do meet up they use those image projection things while only two members are physically present at the place they met up.



He probably met for a costume and nail polish fitting. I'm serious. The guy also knew Obito's sharingan to program Amaterasu and if he could find Obito during the Uchiha massacre I'm sure he can find him again.

As for Pain/Nagato, yeah that may be a difficult one. 

It's reasonable that Itachi is weaker and can't defeat them. 

I prefer the option of Itachi being able to, but he wont, because he's so badass he just can't be bothered.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 16, 2015)

tupadre97 said:


> Bullshit. Konoha was attacked twice in the main timeline (completely destroyed the second time) yet nobody attacked them and they were still able to project power. If the uchiha would have revolted it would have failed the same way orochimaru's attack did.



I laugh at the civil war thing every time I see it.
Konoha was attacked by Obito and Kurama. It lost the strongest Ninja at the time, their own Hokage.
and yet no one attacked them.

It was attacked by the sound and the sand, and Konoha lost its Hokage again, and was severely weakened, and yet again, there was no other attack at all.

Pain wiped the whole village completely, and the Hokage was in a coma, and again, there is no attack from other villages at all.

It's laughable imo to think that the other villages would have attacked if the uchiha attacked, or that the uchiha clan would have done any more damage to the village. ESPECIALLY, with the fact that
the strongest 2 of the uchiha were not even in their side to begin with!


----------



## Bonly (Jan 16, 2015)

Lammy said:


> He probably met for a costume and nail polish fitting. I'm serious. The guy also knew Obito's sharingan to program Amaterasu



Which got shit on by Obito getting the flames off of him because Itachi didn't know everything about Obito.



> and if he could find Obito during the Uchiha massacre I'm sure he can find him again.
> 
> As for Pain/Nagato, yeah that may be a difficult one.



Obito was hiding out near the village when Itachi found him, I don't think it'll be the same when Obito is in a different country and constantly moving. 



> It's reasonable that Itachi is weaker and can't defeat them. I like the option of Itachi being able to, but he wont, because he's so badass he just can't be bothered.



Then you can't really hold it against him from not attacking.


----------



## Bloo (Jan 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Itachi did not even give any info whatsoever about the Akatsuki to konoha. What a great spy.


Any statements in the manga that explicitly state that? In fact, if I remember correctly, Itachi subtly revealed the motives of the Akatsuki to Konoha Jounin and Jiraiya, confirming that the Akatsuki were after Naruto. Wanna rethink the statement that he didn't give any information at all?

Furthermore, Itachi was never said to be a spy giving the village information about the Akatasuki. He was keeping an eye on it.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 16, 2015)

Bloo said:


> Any statements in the manga that explicitly state that? In fact, if I remember correctly, Itachi subtly revealed the motives of the Akatsuki to Konoha Jounin and Jiraiya, confirming that the Akatsuki were after Naruto. Wanna rethink the statement that he didn't give any information at all?
> 
> Furthermore, Itachi was never said to be a spy giving the village information about the Akatasuki. He was keeping an eye on it.



-I believe that Jiraiya talked to Kakashi before itachi, and they already knew that info. That's why itachi ordered Kisame to take Kakashi when he said "Akatsuki" had not gai been there to save him. 

- Well, the spy is supposed to collect the info, no?
Also, what did "keeping an eye on them" do at all? He was even helping them.


----------



## Jυstin (Jan 16, 2015)

Lammy said:


> That's the ironic thing. Itachi didn't oppose Akatsuki whatever. He's actively contributing to the possible deaths of thousands/millions of people in the future. He played his cover convincingly because he did everything they asked!  Except maaaybe say "Naruto is wit Jiraiya, too tough. we'll get Roshi instead. Hidan, Kakuzu, cud u guys plz do it? k thx"
> 
> What the hell Itachi!




Itachi made absolutely no contributions to future deaths whatsoever.

If you blame Itachi for those deaths because "he didn't wipe out Akatsuki", then every single other person in the Naruto universe is also guilty of this.

I highly doubt Itachi knew anything about the Moon's Eye Plan, but he did postpone that for a while just by keeping Naruto safe.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 16, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Then you can't really hold it against him from not attacking.



I don't hold it against him. On the contrary, I love it in works where they have contradictions like this. 

Would be nice if Kishimoto added in more internal conflicts from Itachi's point of view but meh. I've got my Breaking Bad and my Scorsese films for that. It's clear Kishimoto wanted the big surprise of evil villain being defeated by Sasuke reversal. 



			
				Justin said:
			
		

> Itachi made absolutely no contributions to future deaths whatsoever. If you blame Itachi for those deaths because "he didn't wipe out Akatsuki"



Actually I blame Itachi because he was actively helping them. He's an anti-villain remember.

I hope you never become a criminal lawyer for known members of Terrorist cells...


----------



## Namikaze Minato Flash (Jan 16, 2015)

I suggest you re-read Obito and Hiruzen's statements to Sasuske concerning this matter...


----------



## Lammy (Jan 16, 2015)

You mean these pages?




Whut of them? Itachi is one of my fav characters and in my opinion I think he's a terrible spy, a terrible son, and a terrible brother. And it makes everyone here so defensive, hahahaha.


----------



## Bloo (Jan 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> -I believe that Jiraiya talked to Kakashi before itachi, and they already knew that info. That's why itachi ordered Kisame to take Kakashi when he said "Akatsuki" had not gai been there to save him.
> 
> - Well, the spy is supposed to collect the info, no?
> Also, what did "keeping an eye on them" do at all? He was even helping them.


- That's an entirely irrelevant point. Firstly, how was Itachi to know that they had any idea of this? Secondly, it's a moot point when that contention was a contradiction to the comment that Itachi never gave information away.

- Show me a panel saying that Itachi never gave any details to the elders. And Itachi didn't really help them... At all. After he died (and with two members left) they still continued with sealings regardless. Itachi didn't kill a single person for the Akatsuki from what we've seen. So, helping them (by just standing in the background) isn't much of a point and is in fact a very large reach.


----------



## Shinobu (Jan 16, 2015)

Lammy said:


> I hope you never become a criminal lawyer for known members of Terrorist cells...





Lammy said:


> Ironically the amount of people that died would have been less than the ones that eventually did in the 4th Shinobi war. Respect to Itachi for admitting he was a huge failure at the end :'(




Ummm, sorry, but ... what?

I don't get your point.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 16, 2015)

Reiji said:


> Ummm, sorry, but ... what?
> 
> I don't get your point.



I apologise for my round-about way of saying things, but I already explained what I meant in the next posts:



> I was simply making an observation based purely on a numbers game if we are talking about Itachi's motivation to 'saving lives and avoiding war'.





> I was talking about how tiny the deaths of the Uchiha clan (and/or the entire destruction of Konoha from a possible civil war) compared to the amount of deaths that Akatsuki could (and did) become capable of in the inevitable war arc.





> What I'm saying is, Itachi did a full measure when it came to the Uchiha coup, but only did a half measure on Akatsuki. It wasn't his job to stop them, but it should have been.



I did _*not *_mean "If Itachi let the Uchiha coup happen there wouldn't be a 4th Shinobi war!111lololone"


As to bloo saying Itachi just stood around in the background of Akatsuki... well I'll also quote another of my posts about his crimes:



> Itachi's confirmed crimes in the eyes of the law:
> 
> * Genocide and Patricide (the Uchiha clan)
> * Torturing a child
> ...



Funny Itachi! Just because Akatsuki would do things regardless of if Itachi was there or not, doesn't change the fact that he did do awful things for them.


----------



## Jυstin (Jan 16, 2015)

Lammy said:


> Actually I blame Itachi because he was actively helping them. He's an anti-villain remember.
> 
> I hope you never become a criminal lawyer for known members of Terrorist cells...




I could do a much better job than most people because, unlike them, I possess the rare "common sense". Ironic, isn't it?

I would like to know in what way he was helping them. I would like to know what help he offered that, without him, they could not have accomplished or succeeded on their own.

Please. Enlighten me.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 16, 2015)

Okay Justin, I already quoted his crimes above. Please, do defend those actions if you want, but I have no idea what you are getting at.

You seem to want to defend Itachi's honour, but those are irrelevant.


----------



## Jυstin (Jan 16, 2015)

Those are reaching at best. I laughed at the sexual assault and not paying his tab, though. Congrats.

Again I ask. In what way did his actions directly help the Akatsuki further its goals?

They could perform the Bijuu extraction ritual without him. His absence would have only made it take a bit longer.

Meanwhile, his presence in Akatsuki kept Konoha and Naruto safe for a much longer time.

Had he not been part of Akatsuki and had Naruto assigned to him, Konoha would have been rubble much sooner, and Naruto would have been captured already, and they'd still be able to perform their Bijuu sealing.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 16, 2015)

Even though Obito knew Itachi was a spy, the others didn't care because he was so good at his job! 

Akatsuki decided to capture Naruto last anyway. Conveniently Itachi died before that.... and why Akatsuki took 10 years or so to bother starting from the 1st tails is anyone's guess.

We have seen no evidence of Itachi really helping Konoha after joining Akatsuki. I'd argue Itachi fighting and stalling the Konoha guys from saving Gaara is extremely dickish and going way too far deep in his roleplay of bad guy. He isn't just some tea boy eavesdropping.


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 16, 2015)

> Funny Itachi! Just because Akatsuki would do things regardless of if Itachi was there or not, doesn't change the fact that he did do awful things for them.



and if Itachi wasn't there Akatsuki would attack Konoha and capture Naruto.so he had to do few awful things for greater good.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 16, 2015)

Sounds kind of futile, but I really don't see any evidence of Itachi stalling Akatsuki at all. The only saving grace is if Itachi was the one that informed Jiraiya of the rain village for Pain, but even that's pretty shakey.

Even if Itachi's plan went ahead- Sasuke defeats Itachi and lives as a hero... he must have had some insane confidence that Sasuke could even survive against Pain and the 7-uptailed beasted Akatsuki.

Itachi's motives are pretty funny. He's a great soldier, but a terrible spy and tactician lol.


----------



## Jυstin (Jan 16, 2015)

Lammy said:


> Even though Obito knew Itachi was a spy, the others didn't care because he was so good at his job!
> 
> Akatsuki decided to capture Naruto last anyway. Conveniently Itachi died before that.... and why Akatsuki took 10 years or so to bother starting from the 1st tails is anyone's guess.
> 
> We have seen no evidence of Itachi really helping Konoha after joining Akatsuki. I'd argue Itachi fighting and stalling the Konoha guys from saving Gaara is extremely dickish and going way too far deep in his roleplay of bad guy. He isn't just some tea boy eavesdropping.




We don't know how long Obito knew that Itachi wasn't in Akatsuki to help them. We just know the point in which Obito gave the job of capturing Naruto to Nagato, because Itachi's life was coming to a close. He was the only reason that Naruto was still around.

Itachi was the one who first said it would be better to wait or to save Naruto for last.

Considering that Itachi could have actually fought and destroyed them, instead of just half-ass stalling them without actually really doing _anything_, they're fortunate that Itachi was the Shouten who fought them, and not one of the other Akatsuki members.

Good guy Itachi. Sparing Kakashi and Naruto twice when he had the opportunity to destroy them.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 16, 2015)

Well, 30~100% Kisame or even 90% Rikudou Madara is still no match for Gai so I'm happy.

So you think 30% Itachi could destroy Team 7? Yeah I can agree with that.

Imagine 100% Itachi on Akatsuki! 

Ok now it's turning into the Battledome section so I'll stop


----------



## Bloo (Jan 16, 2015)

Lammy said:


> Sounds kind of futile, *but I really don't see any evidence of Itachi stalling Akatsuki at all*. The only saving grace is if Itachi was the one that informed Jiraiya of the rain village for Pain, but even that's pretty shakey.
> 
> Even if Itachi's plan went ahead- Sasuke defeats Itachi and lives as a hero... he must have had some insane confidence that Sasuke could even survive against Pain and the 7-uptailed beasted Akatsuki.
> 
> Itachi's motives are pretty funny. He's a great soldier, but a terrible spy and tactician lol.


Try paying attention to the manga.
seven years

"Itachi's dead... Nothing stands in my way now. Konoha is no longer 'off limits.'"

It's deathly clear that Itachi actually did protect Konoha to some degree (which to me is pretty large) by keeping his eye on Akatsuki. Anyone trying to say Itachi should have soloed the entire organization is just delusional. Itachi was strong, he wasn't strong enough to do that. Itachi and Obito had each other at a standstill. Obito wasn't strong enough to get rid of Itachi, and Itachi had no way to really kill Obito before he just warped away and tell Pein to just eliminate him. So, Obito settled for letting Itachi somewhat contribute to his plan and Itachi settled on keeping Obito away from Konoha for as long as he lived.

Itachi's haters expect more from him than his fans do and it's the most ironic thing ever.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 16, 2015)

I am paying attention to the manga. And I'm not an Itachi hater, and I am not delusional. 

Yes Itachi didn't kill Jiraiya/Kakashi. Yes Itachi suggested to capture Naruto latter. Yes Itachi also sealed bijuus and did as Akatsuki told him. But I do feel Itachi helped Akatsuki more than not.



> "Itachi's dead... Nothing stands in my way now. Konoha is no longer 'off limits.'"
> 
> Obito wasn't strong enough to get rid of Itachi, and Itachi had no way to really kill Obito before he just warped away and tell Pein to just eliminate him.



That's a lot of speculation. It highlights Obito's incompetence more than anything else and doesn't disprove anything I have said.


----------



## Bloo (Jan 16, 2015)

Lammy said:


> I am paying attention to the manga. And I'm not an Itachi hater, and I am not delusional.


I never called you an Itachi hater or delusional. I said, "*Anyone* trying to say Itachi should have soloed the entire organization is just delusional."



> That's a lot of speculation. It highlights Obito's incompetence more than anything else.


How does this interpretation have to do with the self-proclaimed statement by Obito that Itachi's absence now allows him to attack Konoha? I don't care if it shows Obito's incompetence or not, Itachi's presence did keep Obito at bay for years.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 16, 2015)

Bloo said:


> How does this interpretation have to do with the self-proclaimed statement by Obito that Itachi's absence now allows him to attack Konoha? I don't care if it shows Obito's incompetence or not, Itachi's presence did keep Obito at bay for years.



It's just a statement that Obito is relieved Itachi is dead. But it also suggests that had Akatsuki gone for Konoha, that Itachi would solo them. Itachi might have failed, but Obito's reaction there suggests it would have been devastating to Akatsuki. Do you see a contradiction there?

Pein didn't attack Konoha earlier because he agreed about getting Naruto for last.

That's pretty much Itachi's entire accomplishment in Akatsuki. It's a timing issue more than any active sabotage from Itachi. Everything else is incredibly detrimental to Konoha and the Shinobi world.

What would be interesting though, is had he lived, what would he have done once Pain started the invasion? What did he expect Sasuke to do after he had died?


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 16, 2015)

Lammy said:


> You mean these pages?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haha that second page makes me laugh... I guess you can defend anything but jesus christ that is a tough pill to swallow


----------



## Bloo (Jan 16, 2015)

Lammy said:


> It's just a statement that Obito is relieved Itachi is dead. But it also suggests that had Akatsuki gone for Konoha, that Itachi would solo them. Itachi might have failed, but Obito's reaction there suggests it would have been devastating to Akatsuki. Do you see a contradiction there?


Obito flat out said that Konoha is no longer "off limits" because of Itachi being gone... It's not much of a contradiction. It was just smarter for Obito to just wait for Itachi to kill himself then actually make Itachi a problem. Itachi isn't capable of soloing the Akatsuki, but he still could have caused complications. Obito didn't want to risk that and he made the appropriate move and waited.



> Pein didn't attack Konoha earlier because he agreed about getting Naruto for last.


When did I ever bring up Naruto into this? This means nothing against the idea that Obito may have gone after Konoha another way.



> That's pretty much Itachi's entire accomplishment in Akatsuki. It's a timing issue more than any active sabotage from Itachi.


He still kept an eye on the organization. If Akatsuki planned to destroy Konoha while Itachi was alive he would have stepped in. He had no reason to necessarily do that. So, for the time being, he had to go through the motions. The Akatsuki were decently quiet while Itachi was alive and there wasn't much reason for Itachi to do much.



> Everything else is incredibly detrimental to Konoha and the Shinobi world.


And this is Itachi's fault how?



> What would be interesting though, is had he lived, what would he have done once Pain started the invasion?


He probably would have joined the side of the village. I'd assume. But we'll never know so I don't care much to think of it personally.


> What did he expect Sasuke to do after he had died?


Return to the village. That's actually pretty clear.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 16, 2015)

Bloo said:


> So, for the time being, he had to go through the motions. The Akatsuki were decently quiet while Itachi was alive and there wasn't much reason for Itachi to do much.



And that's exactly why I argue that those were pretty big motions he went through. If you say 7 nukes under Akatsuki's possession is quiet, well... 



			
				Bloo said:
			
		

> And this is Itachi's fault how?



I think you're confusing my argument. I'm only saying Itachi WAS contributing to Akatsuki's success. And thus the fall out that happened with the war after. Yet you are disagreeing with me continuously on this single, undeniable, point. 



			
				Bloo said:
			
		

> Return to the village. That's actually pretty clear.



Haha what village? Itachi is well aware of Akatsuki's destructive power. Lucky Naruto can talk no jutsu that Nagato, eh 

As I said before, Itachi is either supremely confident Akatsuki are a peace of cake for the good guys, or he just doesn't care that much about the loss of lives.


----------



## Bloo (Jan 16, 2015)

Lammy said:


> And that's exactly why I argue that those were pretty big motions he went through. If you say 7 nukes under Akatsuki's possession is quiet, well...


What was he supposed to do? The villages were well aware that it was happening and they didn't bother to protect their jinchuuruki. Please give me something Itachi could have done about that.


> I think you're confusing my argument. I'm only saying Itachi WAS contributing to Akatsuki's success. And thus the fall out that happened with the war after. Yet you are disagreeing with me continuously on this single, undeniable, point.


Not really. Itachi did hardly anything in his stay with the Akatsuki. In fact, his contribution was practically worthless.


> Haha what village? Itachi is well aware of Akatsuki's destructive power. Lucky Naruto can talk no jutsu that Nagato, eh


Konoha. That was his intentions.


> As I said before, Itachi is either supremely confident Akatsuki are a peace of cake for the good guys, or he just doesn't care that much about the loss of lives.


Itachi's responsibility isn't to save the world. He gave up his life to stop the coup. Keeping an eye on Akatsuki was his pastime until he was killed by Sasuke. His goal was never to destroy the Akatsuki because that wouldn't have been possible. I still don't see how this all relates to the moral ambiguities of the coup.

But, I'm done with this thread. It's run its course and has grown to be quite boring.


----------



## Maroke (Jan 16, 2015)

This is still going.  I swear Itachi is about the only character who can cause this 5 days later.  I think I've done pretty good at keeping my mouth shut this time.  




> As I said before, Itachi is either supremely confident Akatsuki are a peace of cake for the good guys, or he just doesn't care that much about the loss of lives


.
I think he simply just couldn't worry about that.  His concern was keeping them out and away from Konoha, not the rest of the world.  What was that about knowing what you could and couldn't do?  What you can and simply can not worry about?


----------



## Lammy (Jan 16, 2015)

Bloo said:


> Please give me something Itachi could have done about that.



But I like what Itachi did (and didn't do) because it's entertaining for me as a reader and for discussion.



			
				Bloo said:
			
		

> Itachi did hardly anything in his stay with the Akatsuki. In fact, his contribution was practically worthless.



Nope!



			
				Bloo said:
			
		

> Keeping an eye on Akatsuki was his pastime until he was killed by Sasuke.



Yup.



			
				Bloo said:
			
		

> He probably would have joined the side of the village. I'd assume.



I don't think he would, because that could blow his bad guy act with Sasuke. So goodbye Konoha! 



			
				Bloo said:
			
		

> I still don't see how this all relates to the moral ambiguities of the coup.



I'm not even having that discussion, you're still stuck on Page 1 of this thread. 



			
				Bloo said:
			
		

> But, I'm done with this thread. It's run its course and has grown to be quite boring.



You'll be back 




			
				Maraoke said:
			
		

> I think he simply just couldn't worry about that. His concern was keeping them out and away from Konoha



Yeah I agree. I think Itachi came up on his limit by that point and he was just glad he did a great job convincing Sasuke and the world that he was a really naughty man.


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 16, 2015)

Lammy said:


> Sounds kind of futile, but I really don't see any evidence of Itachi stalling Akatsuki at all. The only saving grace is if Itachi was the one that informed Jiraiya of the rain village for Pain, but even that's pretty shakey.



no,as someone provided the scan,it's clear from what Obito said,that Itachi is a reason why Obito and Akatsuki didn't attack Konoha yet.


> Even if Itachi's plan went ahead- Sasuke defeats Itachi and lives as a hero... he must have had some insane confidence that Sasuke could even survive against Pain and the 7-uptailed beasted Akatsuki.
> 
> Itachi's motives are pretty funny. He's a great soldier, but a terrible spy and tactician lol.



he knew that after his death Sasuke will take his eyes and awaken EMS.he basically encouraged Sasuke to do that.and with EMS he would be able to defeat Pain.
Akatsuki had 7 tailed beasts,but with that they wouldn't have been able to revive the Juubi,and Pain wouldn't have his weapon to nuke the countries either.and if needed Sasuke could control the Bijuu's too with his EMS.


----------



## Jυstin (Jan 17, 2015)

Lammy said:


> Well, 30~100% Kisame or even 90% Rikudou Madara is still no match for Gai so I'm happy.
> 
> So you think 30% Itachi could destroy Team 7? Yeah I can agree with that.
> 
> ...




I think 100% Itachi wouldn't do too bad against Akatsuki.

I mean, I don't think he'd win, but then I can't say he'd lose either, since we never saw him at 100%.

At least not while alive. Living Itachi was slowly dying of illness, which may have kept him from making a move on Obito.

Either that, or Obito was simply just stronger. I'm tempted to believe it was due to Itachi's illness. Either way, didn't see taking on Akatsuki as a possibility, for him to have not even attempted it. I'd say his illness was probably a deciding factor in that.

So, all he could do was keep Obito at bay. Itachi was apparently at least enough of a threat to keep Obito in check, even though Obito even knew he was sick.

Healthy, he would have been a force to be trifled with.


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 17, 2015)

I think based on the amount of dispute in this thread we can all agree that it was not written very well. 

I still think Itachi's actions are hilarious and he is supposed to be looked at by the reader as a pacifist. 

He's supposed to be looked at as "Oh we didn't understand the whole story. NOW I get it. He was just trying to protect people by committing genocide!" 

Hitler's reasoning was similar in his mind... He was just trying to protect Germany from the Jews, they were tearing it apart.


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 17, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> I still think Itachi's actions are hilarious and he is supposed to be looked at by the reader as a pacifist.
> He's supposed to be looked at as "Oh we didn't understand the whole story. NOW I get it. He was just trying to protect people by committing genocide!"
> Hitler's reasoning was similar in his mind... He was just trying to protect Germany from the Jews, they were tearing it apart.



by killing some people,Itachi saved many others.if the coup had happened Uchiha clan would have been killed anyway,but many other innocent people would have died too.
and the only way to stop the coup was Shisui's Kotoamatsukami,which couldn't be used due to Danzo.there was no other way to stop it.

and camparing Itachi to Hitler, the fuck is wrong?


----------



## Lammy (Jan 17, 2015)

Oh no, we're hitting the point of the conversation where  is invoked...

I think we're just throwing the word 'pacifist' too lightly. Is that a mistranslation? There's a double standard on Itachi.

But it's also like saying Nagato is a pacifist. Sure he killed Hanzo and all his family and friends, but who knew how many of them would get revenge and kill more people?! An even longer civil war in the rain country?! Nagato killed some people to save many others!!! And his nukes plan would save millions!!

Naruto has taught us it's all bullshit. If anything, Naruto is a 'pacifist'... [although he does beat people up, and he did kill Yura...]




//

Now - I have to laugh and wonder what Itachi would have done if:

1) Kisame was successful in chopping off Naruto's legs and capturing him...

2) Hidan and Kakuzu were successful in capturing Naruto...

3) Deidara actually killed Sasuke...


//


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 17, 2015)

Lammy said:


> I think we're just throwing the word 'pacifist' too lightly. Is that a mistranslation? There's a double standard on Itachi.
> But it's also like saying Nagato is a pacifist. Sure he killed Hanzo and all his family and friends, but who knew how many of them would get revenge and kill more people?! An even longer civil war in the rain country?! Nagato killed some people to save many others!!! And his nukes plan would save millions!!
> Naruto has taught us it's all bullshit. If anything, Naruto is a 'pacifist'... [although he does beat people up, and he did kill Yura...]



Nagato isn't a pacifist,but he also wanted to establish peace in the ninja world.i don't think Nagato and Itachi are same.




> Now - I have to laugh and wonder what Itachi would have done if:
> 
> 1) Kisame was successful in chopping off Naruto's legs and capturing him...
> 
> ...



well,for 1. and 2. i think you're right,Itachi really didn't plan well there and was saved by luck/plot.

for 3. i don't think anyone ever thought Deidara could defeat Sasuke,including Itachi.

but anyway Itachi's planing wasn't 100% correct and could have gone wrong few times.and then it did kinda go wrong after his death.but he did try his best,and it did help Konoha.


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 17, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> Nagato isn't a pacifist,but he also wanted to establish peace in the ninja world.i don't think Nagato and Itachi are same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You guys are all completely brainwashed by Kishi. If he wrote Itachi with a slightly different tone (same material), he could have been viewed as another one of the akatsuki drones that Naruto needs to talk no jutsu.

That's why it's so funny for all of them "no you are doing it the wrong way, THIS is how you achieve peace friendship etc etc" and for itachi it is just 

"Oh I get it. He is jesus and he was trying to save his brother all this time! He just made a few mistakes in HOW to save him" instead of "he is a murderous psychopath and his plan is completely insane and he should have said "no there is another way I will not commit genocide."


----------



## Shinobu (Jan 17, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> Hitler's reasoning was similar in his mind... He was just trying to protect Germany from the Jews, they were tearing it apart.




With the tiny difference that the jews didn't want to harm anyone or planned a Coup d'Etat.

So what kind of comparison is that?


----------



## Maroke (Jan 17, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> Hitler's reasoning was similar in his mind... He was just trying to protect Germany from the Jews, they were tearing it apart.


Yeah I agree that statement is going just a little bit too far.  



Lammy said:


> Oh no, we're hitting the point of the conversation where  is invoked...
> 
> I think we're just throwing the word 'pacifist' too lightly. Is that a mistranslation? There's a double standard on Itachi.
> 
> ...


If I'm not mistaken Obito was the only one to call Itachi a pacifist.  It's obvious he didn't like to fight and tried to avoid it but to call him a pacifist?  I don't think that's the right word to use for Itachi.  

As to 1 and 2 good question. I guess he would blow his cover for it.  He was all about protecting Konoha.  But lucky for him he didn't have to.  Wonder how many bullets he was sweating over that.
As for 3, well, I agree that no one thought Deidara would kill Sasuke.  Even Itachi knew he didn't.  But as to what he would do?  Might would kill Deidara.  Would have been interesting yes?



RockyIII said:


> You guys are all completely brainwashed by Kishi. If he wrote Itachi with a slightly different tone (same material), he could have been viewed as another one of the akatsuki drones that Naruto needs to talk no jutsu.


No, I just read the manga.  Big difference.



> That's why it's so funny for all of them "no you are doing it the wrong way, THIS is how you achieve peace friendship etc etc" and for itachi it is just
> 
> "Oh I get it. He is jesus and he was trying to save his brother all this time! He just made a few mistakes in HOW to save him" instead of "he is a murderous psychopath and his plan is completely insane and he should have said "no there is another way I will not commit genocide."


You act like his fans believe him to be a saint.  I wanted to say this earlier to you but I refrained, not now tho.  You act like he didn't do anything to try to stop it.  Like he said nothing or tried nothing.  The clan was set, there was no turning back.  Subtlety was as lost on the Uchiha as it was lost on you.  He did tell them it was folly, did they listen?  No.  Why?  Because they put themselves above the greater good.  I do understand where they are coming from and I do understand how they feel but neither side was right.  At the bottom of the dung heap was Danzo who made sure that genocide was the only option left to Itachi.  His telling them "No I won't commit genocide there is another way" would have accomplished nothing.  They were going to die, that was it.  Wither it was by Itachi's hand or by the hands of the ANBU it was going to happen. Why?  Because Danzo was going to make sure that it did.  Right or wrong Itachi's choice was logical.  It saved Sasuke, kept the reputation of the clan intact, and prevented civil war and ultimately a war between nations.   His handling of Sasuke sucked but that's for another argument.


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 17, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> You guys are all completely brainwashed by Kishi. If he wrote Itachi with a slightly different tone (same material), he could have been viewed as another one of the akatsuki drones that Naruto needs to talk no jutsu.



no,we read the manga try to understand it and try to see things objectively.which you don't.
Itachi wasn't like other Akatsuki drones,that's the difference,and that's what matters.




> That's why it's so funny for all of them "no you are doing it the wrong way, THIS is how you achieve peace friendship etc etc" and for itachi it is just
> "Oh I get it. He is jesus and he was trying to save his brother all this time! He just made a few mistakes in HOW to save him" instead of "he is a murderous psychopath and his plan is completely insane and he should have said "no there is another way I will not commit genocide."


 
no,you didn't understand Itachi's character.he is not thought as jesus.and not a murderous psychopath either.i would say you should read the manga.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 18, 2015)

tkpirate said:
			
		

> Itachi really didn't plan well there and was saved by luck/plot.





Maroke said:


> But lucky for him he didn't have to.  Wonder how many bullets he was sweating over that.



See what I mean! 

I bet Itachi illness was a result of all the drug abuse (heroin, vicodin, you name it) to cope with the stress for having to go along with everything Akatsuki asked and yet not blow his cover hahaha.



			
				Maraoke said:
			
		

> They were going to die, that was it. Wither it was by Itachi's hand or by the hands of the ANBU it was going to happen. Why? Because Danzo was going to make sure that it did.



Another thing I find quite funny is that Itachi is the one to personally kill his parents. Dang, that's cold. Itachi could have killed everyone else except for them. This at least gives Fugaku and Mikoto a fighting chance against ANBU. Then, because of the loud commotion of waking up the other villagers etc. they could actually survive and just feel upset/proud of Itachi. After all, can't do a coup if it's just a small broken family unit...


----------



## Maroke (Jan 18, 2015)

Lammy said:


> See what I mean!
> 
> I bet Itachi illness was a result of all the drug abuse (heroin, vicodin, you name it) to cope with the stress for having to go along with everything Akatsuki asked and yet not blow his cover hahaha.


xD!!  Did I tell you that I came across someone who actually gave Itachi a real diagnosis?  Take a look at this.    This person had to really do some research to find this.  



> Another thing I find quite funny is that Itachi is the one to personally kill his parents. Dang, that's cold. Itachi could have killed everyone else except for them. This at least gives Fugaku and Mikoto a fighting chance against ANBU. Then, because of the loud commotion of waking up the other villagers etc. they could actually survive and just feel upset/proud of Itachi. After all, can't do a coup if it's just a small broken family unit...


Honestly I guess if it were me and prolly do the same thing and I don't see that as cold.  If I'm going to do this then I'll do it.  Take the responsibility and do it myself.  There was also the factor of what Obito was doing and maybe he didn't want him messing with his parents so he took it upon himself to kill them.  But think about this, everything he did was to influence Sasuke.  If he hadn't seen Itachi there then would he have believed that it was his brother who killed everyone?  

As to letting the ANBU handle it, that would have been the worse thing possible.   They would have been tossed into prison at the very least.  You think Sasuke was a basket case with how the story went, he would have been one still had it gone that way.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 18, 2015)

In that situation, Hiruzen and the villagers may take sympathy on them. Danzou would still want Fugaku dead I guess but there's an opportunity for a fair trial...

And hang on, Itachi wouldn't even need to leave in that instance? It would send such a strong message to all clans and other villages that Konoha are damn strict on traitors. Itachi can still look after Sasuke.

But yeah true, wouldn't be as fun to torture and mess up Sasuke I guess. Plus for some reason, Itachi really prides on the Uchiha's reputation. Say whuuut, that's one request he gave Naruto to keep lol? Crazy Itachi, made them extinct and all troubles seem linked to them, don't worry about no rep now!


----------



## Bakawaii (Jan 19, 2015)

Itachi was a brutal, mindraping, genocidal thug and an extremely vicious madman who was complicit in multiple Obito atrocities and sat on his ass for 10 years in the Akatsuki and basically slept on the job. 


He was so cold hearted, that he went cold turkey with his "job" to spy on the Akatsuki, and thus he indirectly declared war on humanity. 

Itachi Killed 7 jinchuurikins when he helped akatsuki to  extract the bijuus

What a hero.


He killed a lot innocent people from Uchiha Clan including his mother to supposed protect Konoha.


But when he encounters a true enemy Orochimaru and has the chance to kill him to protect Konoha.
itachi left him alive to later Orochimaru destroy Konoha and kill the sandaime Hokage and try to steal the body of his brother



Itachi is stupid


Kishimoto tried to add in a twist, but failed to adequately cover his back in terms of what he had already established in the story.

This poor twist plot made Itachi transforms in a horrible character.


----------



## Maroke (Jan 19, 2015)

Bakawaii said:


> Itachi was a brutal, mindraping, genocidal thug and an extremely vicious madman who was complicit in multiple Obito atrocities and sat on his ass for 10 years in the Akatsuki and basically slept on the job.
> 
> 
> He was so cold hearted, that he went cold turkey with his "job" to spy on the Akatsuki, and thus he indirectly declared war on humanity.
> ...


I'm not sure if you are for real or if you are just trolling....


----------



## Bakawaii (Jan 19, 2015)

Maroke said:


> I'm not sure if you are for real or if you are just trolling....



What?

It's the truth.

Itachi killed 7 Jinchuurikin in Akatsuki.
He was a accomplice in their deaths and kidnapping


Itachi left Orochimaru alive to destroy Konoha and Kill the sandaime.


----------



## Maroke (Jan 19, 2015)

Bakawaii said:


> What?
> 
> It's the truth.
> 
> ...


LOL no one said he was a saint.  Besides, this has been gone over tons of times.  His concern was for Konoha, not the rest of the world.  If the other villages didn't protect their Jins what was he suppose to do about it.  His choices were few, plz reread the thread.  This has been addressed already.


----------



## Bakawaii (Jan 19, 2015)

Maroke said:


> LOL no one said he was a saint.  Besides, this has been gone over tons of times.  His concern was for Konoha, not the rest of the world.  If the other villages didn't protect their Jins what was he suppose to do about it.  His choices were few, plz reread the thread.  This has been addressed already.





Not
Itachi knew the Bijuus was being used to make a ultimate weapon to destroy the world.


After the Bijuus were used to make the fourth shinobi war.
Itachi is indirectly responsible for the fourth war.

whats the point to protect the village and after joining and help a organization who wants to destroy the world including Konoha?

Itachi did nothing against Akatsuki as spy.
Only helped them


Now Orochimaru.
Orochimaru is Konoha's number one enemy

Itachi killed his own Clan and a lot of innocent Uchiha unnecessarily to protect the village but after he left Orochimaru alive.




Why Itachi didn't kill Orochimaru in their battle when Orochimaru left Akatsuki?
Itachi left Orochimaru alive to destroy Konoha and Kill the sandaime Hokage and fourth kazekage  and cause a lot more damage than the Uchiha rebellion.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 19, 2015)

Plus it was also a direct order from Akatsuki to kill Orochimaru as well.

What would Itachi have done if Oro successfully took over Sasuke's body?  

Itachi either sat on that for 3 years not worrying coz of how much faith he has in Sasuke's abilities, or he was shitting bricks. 

Oh Itachi


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 19, 2015)

Bakawaii said:


> Not
> Itachi knew the Bijuus was being used to make a ultimate weapon to destroy the world.
> After the Bijuus were used to make the fourth shinobi war.
> Itachi is indirectly responsible for the fourth war.


the fuck are you saying?

Itachi could have done nothing about that.the Akatsuki would have captured the Bijuu anyway.if Itachi had tried to do anything,he would have been killed.



> whats the point to protect the village and after joining and help a organization who wants to destroy the world including Konoha?
> Itachi did nothing against Akatsuki as spy.
> Only helped them



that organization would have been same without Itachi's help.but because Itachi joined Akatsuki,and made Orochimaru leave that organization,was the reason why Konoha wasn't destroyed by Akatsuki before.



> Now Orochimaru.
> Orochimaru is Konoha's number one enemy
> Itachi killed his own Clan and a lot of innocent Uchiha unnecessarily to protect the village but after he left Orochimaru alive.
> 
> ...



you said he killed the Uchiha to protect the village,then you say he killed them unnecessarily.the fuck?

if he had killed Oro,that would have blown is cover or atleast have made Akatsuki suspicious of him.and he wouldn't have been able hold off Akatsuki from attacking Konoha for the amount of time he did.



Lammy said:


> What would Itachi have done if Oro successfully took over Sasuke's body?
> 
> Itachi either sat on that for 3 years not worrying coz of how much faith he has in Sasuke's abilities, or he was shitting bricks.
> 
> Oh Itachi



well,Itachi solo'd a healthy Orochimaru.so he wouldn't really be wrong in thinking Sasuke can solo a sick Orochimaru.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 19, 2015)

The way it went down was that I think Itachi knew Orochimaru had been working with Danzo. Orochimaru wanted Itachi's sexy body so he had to just teach him a lesson, but let him go out of some Konoha loyalty.

Once Orochimaru attacked Konoha and killed The Third Hokage, that was when Itachi really knew he fucked up. And that he should visit the Village. And realistically, he should have finished his job on Orochimaru. I have no idea what Akatsuki and Itachi was doing during the timeskip. Itachi was probably getting based.


----------



## Maroke (Jan 19, 2015)

Bakawaii said:


> Not


Did.



> Itachi knew the Bijuus was being used to make a ultimate weapon to destroy the world.
> 
> 
> After the Bijuus were used to make the fourth shinobi war.
> ...


And Konoha was made aware that the Akatsuki were searching for something.  Go back and reread chapter 142.  Itachi made hints at Kakashi when Itachi and Kisame confronted Asuma, Kurenia, and Kakashi.  It amazes me to this day that Itachi's subtlety is so lost on most of the Naruto fan base.  It's like you need it spelled out.  ~sigh~...I see it was lost on you too.  Don't feel bad you aren't the only one.  I'll say it again.  Itachi's concern was Konoha, not the rest of the world.  If it didn't directly effect them and blow his cover why worry about it.  



> Itachi did nothing against Akatsuki as spy.
> Only helped them


And yet Jiraiya knew what was going on to some extent with the Akatsuki.  It's been my head cannon for years now that Jiraiya's informant was Itachi.  Can't prove it but Jiraiya did seem to know a lot.  




> Now Orochimaru.
> Orochimaru is Konoha's number one enemy
> 
> Itachi killed his own Clan and a lot of innocent Uchiha unnecessarily to protect the village but after he left Orochimaru alive.


And this is what we have ANBU for??  Besides that was something else Jiraiya was doing.  Tracking Orochimaru.  And had he killed Orochimaru while he was still in Akatsuki then tell me how that would have looked.  



> Why Itachi didn't kill Orochimaru in their battle when Orochimaru left Akatsuki?
> Itachi left Orochimaru alive to destroy Konoha and Kill the sandaime Hokage and fourth kazekage  and cause a lot more damage than the Uchiha rebellion.


Because who knew?  For as much as Itachi thought steps ahead how is he suppose to know everything.  All that happened after Orochimaru left and was way out of the reach of Itachi.  Besides he knew how powerful Itachi was.  He would be stupid to let himself be found by Itachi. 



Lammy said:


> Plus it was also a direct order from Akatsuki to kill Orochimaru as well.
> 
> What would Itachi have done if Oro successfully took over Sasuke's body?
> 
> ...


Oh Lammy 

Seeing as how Itachi and Orochimaru were partners for a short time I would say he knew about his body switching thing and I would dare say had a good handle on how it worked.  By the time he found out Sasuke had gone to Orochimaru he was aware they had 3 years.  Last panels of chapter 238.  For their plan and Orochimaru.  So I doubt he was shitting bricks at least for the first couple years.



Lammy said:


> The way it went down was that I think Itachi knew Orochimaru had been working with Danzo. Orochimaru wanted Itachi's sexy body so he had to just teach him a lesson, but let him go out of some Konoha loyalty.
> 
> Once Orochimaru attacked Konoha and killed The Third Hokage, that was when Itachi really knew he fucked up. And that he should visit the Village. And realistically, he should have finished his job on Orochimaru. I have no idea what Akatsuki and Itachi was doing during the timeskip. Itachi was probably getting based.


Oh you can bet he knew but I'll tell you what he was doing during the time skip.  Trying get that illness under control.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 19, 2015)

Maraoke said:
			
		

> By the time he found out Sasuke had gone to Orochimaru he was aware they had 3 years.



Unless Itachi was there watching the Sound 4 Sasuke retrieval arc - he couldn't know if Oro had taken Genyumaru or Sasuke's body... all we know to go on is Itachi got word from Zetsu that Oro had his bro.

Itachi's inner thoughts: "Orochimaru killed the 3rd Hokage? Meh... he'll still be no match for Sasuke. I got plenty of time and I have this sexy new Totsuka Blade. Yeah it'll all work out  "

And luckily it did. CUZ ITACHI IS A SICK GAMBLEERRRRR W00!!


----------



## tupadre97 (Jan 19, 2015)

Reiji said:


> A civil war is much more damaging, 'cause it destroys the structure within a village. *Who knows who would have joined the Uchihas? And who would have not?* How many Jounins and ANBUs would've died?
> 
> At that time there was no Naruto around to just save the village. And you can't encounter other villages or enemies, if you're split up.



That's the entire point. Kishi never fleshed out this point. It isn't like Konoha wouldn't have known who were or weren't uchiha sympathizers but Kishi never expanded on this point. The way he makes it seem is that the uchiha would have plunged the country into civil war but how would that be possible if there are no uchiha sympathizers. It doesn't make any sense the uchiha aren't that powerful, its just bullshit to be honest.


tkpirate said:


> did you read my other post?probably didn't.let me say it again.there are strong clans and there are ninja's who can solo them.
> 
> remember what pain was doing to konoha on his own?
> *Itachi and Obito combined are stronger than pain.*just because Uchiha clan got killed by Itachi and Obito dosen't mean they were weak.if they were weak for that,then that means Konoha must be weak too for almost getting solo'd by pain.there was Madara who was buttfucking the entire alliance on his own.that dosen't mean that the alliance was weak,that means Madara was too strong.
> ...



14 yr old Itachi with no susanoo and Obito's sorry ass are no where near as strong as pain was. And a fodder clan like the uchiha with no strong ninja of their own is not causing any civil war. Their rebellion would be comparable to orochimarus attack on Konoha. It might startle them, maybe somebody important might die (i doubt it) but Konoha would beat them back and thats that. They are not causing a civil war, they are far to weak and as far as we know had no one outside their clan to help them.


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 19, 2015)

tupadre97 said:


> 14 yr old Itachi with no susanoo and Obito's sorry ass are no where near as strong as pain was. And a fodder clan like the uchiha with no strong ninja of their own is not causing any civil war. Their rebellion would be comparable to orochimarus attack on Konoha. It might startle them, maybe somebody important might die (i doubt it) but Konoha would beat them back and thats that. They are not causing a civil war, they are far to weak and as far as we know had no one outside their clan to help them.


Obito is far more haxed than pain ever was.
and that time Itachi already had his MS,so it's possible that he had Susaoo.
Uchiha clan wasn't fodder, Itachi and Obito needed to team up to defeat them.

Konoha would have defeated them,but they would have caused far more damge than Orochimaru's attack.they all had fucking sharingans.many of Konoha's innocent people would have died.and would have made village really weak.


----------



## Shinobu (Jan 20, 2015)

Bakawaii, you have no proof for your statements. You don't know, what Itachi did as a spy, you don't know, why he didn't kill Orochimaru - even though this is something that bothers me too - and everything Akatsuki did, they could've done without Itachi.

Reading your posts is like getting the impression, Itachi did something to you personally. Stop your assumptions based on unjustified hate.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 20, 2015)

Bakawaii has given sound logic. We don't know for sure what Itachi did as a spy, but we know for sure what he did as an Akatsuki member.

He has proven his loyalty to Akatsuki and proven his loyalty to Konoha. They're not exactly mutually exclusive.

And I'm sorry, but saying "Akatsuki could've done without Itachi" or that we're "reaching" is failing to see the point.

In Itachi's defence, there's not that much he could have done though and the irony of joining a criminal organisation to protect a village but ending up just helping it destroy it is there.


And to re-iterate:
Itachi is lucky Jiraiya stopped Kisame from taking Naruto. Itachi is lucky Shikamaru kicked Hidan's ass. Itachi is lucky Naruto talk no jutsued Pain. etc


----------



## Shinobu (Jan 20, 2015)

"Failing to see the point" is not to understand what it means to work as a spy. 

Zetsu was basically everywhere and watched over all the members. Itachi had to act like a villain, or else he would've been killed. Nonetheless he helped Konoha as a spy, something even Hiruzen confirmed and we see in some panels.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 20, 2015)

Itachi didn't just act like a villain, he actually had to become one. 

I'll concede he did a little bit spy work:

* Hinted that Akatsuki were taking the bijuus (during first encounter in Konoha)
* Decided to retreat instead of outright engaging against Kakashi/Jiraiya
* Possibly leaked the ring leader is 'Madara' and a rain village Rinnegan user.
* His very presence made Obito cautious around Konoha. Cuz ya know, both of them killed the Uchiha clan for Konoha.

The funny thing is that Danzo was privy to all of this information without needing Itachi as a spy. At all. Danzo was working against the Rain and knew what happened with Hanzo and Akatsuki. And anyone would want to capture their 9Tails if given a chance anyway. Danzo is a huge douche. Itachi was there as a failsafe, but he was fucked again. 

Either leave and live a quiet life, go out in a blaze of glory hindering Akatsuki... or, do as he did, which was pretty much do everything Akatsuki wanted of him and then just die by Sasuke and preserve the "Uchiha reputation!"...


----------



## Maroke (Jan 20, 2015)

Lammy said:


> Unless Itachi was there watching the Sound 4 Sasuke retrieval arc - he couldn't know if Oro had taken Genyumaru or Sasuke's body... all we know to go on is Itachi got word from Zetsu that Oro had his bro.
> 
> Itachi's inner thoughts: "Orochimaru killed the 3rd Hokage? Meh... he'll still be no match for Sasuke. I got plenty of time and I have this sexy new Totsuka Blade. Yeah it'll all work out  "
> 
> And luckily it did. CUZ ITACHI IS A SICK GAMBLEERRRRR W00!!


You are right.  Not initially, a couple things went wrong for Itachi right there.  Sasuke's leaving, his going to Orochimaru, and the 3rd dieing for starters.  There is no way to know how he found out Sasuke was still fine and not taken over by Orochimaru is unknown.  Maybe Zetsu did him a favor.  Maybe he used his summoning crow to find out, who knows.  Evidently he found out someway because he pretty much left that alone for the time being, but he had enough info on the situation that by the time they got to fighting each other Itachi knew he had a curse seal and that Orochimaru had been absorbed by Sasuke and there was enough of a bond between those two that when word reached him that Deidara had supposedly killed Sasuke too Itachi knew Sasuke was still alive.  That 6th sense yo!  I've said this before I'll say it again.  Yes, Itachi left a lot to chance.  Don't see how it could have been much different tho.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 20, 2015)

Itachi may be blind, but he has great foresight yo.

This is a song written and dedicated for him:













And here are memes to show what the hell is up with Itachi:





C'mon... these are funneh


----------



## LS20 (Jan 20, 2015)

Maroke said:


> And this is what we have ANBU for??  Besides that was something else Jiraiya was doing.  Tracking Orochimaru.  And had he killed Orochimaru while he was still in Akatsuki then tell me how that would have looked.



It would've looked good actually. Some of you are forgetting a couple of things here: 

1.) Nobody in Akatsuki liked Orochimaru particularly well. 

2.) They then had him marked for death for years after his defection. 

3.) Itachi attacked Oro in self-defense honestly and that's all he would have needed to say and they wouldn't have given a dam because refer to number 1. 

4.) Last but not least, Kakuzu supposedly killed every partner he ever had before Hidan and no one batted an eye or gave a good gotdamn about that whatsoever.

In closing, Itachi was covered on all bases. He should've took Oro out.


----------



## Maroke (Jan 20, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Lammy said:


> Itachi may be blind, but he has great foresight yo.
> 
> This is a song written and dedicated for him:
> 
> ...





LMAO!!!!!!  The song was hilarious.



LS20 said:


> It would've looked good actually. Some of you are forgetting a couple of things here:
> 
> 1.) Nobody in Akatsuki liked Orochimaru particularly well.
> 
> ...


I still say he was letting the ANBU and Jiraiya take care of that.  I would have thought it would have raised a couple eyebrows but then again, maybe not.  Thing is he didn't and only Kishimoto knows why.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 20, 2015)

He didn't kill Orochimaru for the same reason why he didn't go after Kakashi/Jiraiya/Obito/ 


Itachi has a soft spot for the leaf...


----------



## Shadow050 (Jan 23, 2015)

RockyIII said:


> We have a manga where a kids brother mentally damages him for life in order for him to go on a quest to kill him so that he could be a hero even though no one would be around to relay the information back that he killed him and it was never mentioned that he wanted to be a hero of any sort. This is after he kills his entire family in their sleep to stop a revolt that his aunts, cousins and uncles would stage against an entire village of families and clans.
> 
> *He does not reason or compromise with his father, the leader of his family, first, even though his father seemed like a completely reasonable guy, completely accepting his death at his son's hands.*
> 
> Do not question the logic of this manga.



he, itachi, should not need to compromise or reason with his father who was the head of not only the family but THE CLAN.

THE UCHIHA were being unreasonable and could not be reasoned with despite the many efforts of konoha - this is obvious from reading the manga, and it clearly the reason why Shisui was willing to use his MS technique ON THE UCHIHA SIDE as opposed to the Konoha side. unfortunately that was stopped by danzo lol.

the point is that there was no reasoning with them at that point. also... idk if you've noticed but itachi isn't that big on using a bunch of words apparently... perhaps he wasn't so great at verbally convincing people or going to such length to debate and convince people.


----------



## Maroke (Jan 23, 2015)

Yanno he said a fair bit to them but sadly like most people his subtlety is just lost.....


----------



## Indigo Hero (Jan 25, 2015)

itachi is a character that they decided to change and then change again. Its possible he was always gonna be an anti-hero good guy,  but they just kept making it more and more sappy. So in the end, he had the most effed up plan you could imagine.


----------



## RockyIII (Jan 26, 2015)

I think from this thread we can all agree it was not explained well enough lol. Jesus christ

Still it makes me sick when Itachi lectures Naruto on the importance of depending on your friends etc. It is sociopathic


----------



## Bender (Jan 28, 2015)

It's as Itachi himself said to Naruto: 



> Don't try to do everything yourself...It's true... You're different. Stronger than before. But it seems to me that you're losing sight on what's important. Listen, and listen well. The reason the villagers, who used to dislike you...began to trust you and see you as a comrade - was that you always acknowledged that they were there. And you always tried your hardest to be acknowledged by them. You said before that you 'couldn't have made it this far without them'. If you fixate your attention onto yourself, becoming arrogant and forgetting others... You'll become just like Madara. No matter how strong you become, don't try to bear the weight by yourself. You will fail. The reason your father, Minato, became Hokage, was because he had your mother, Kushina, and all his friends... You share your father's dream, don't you? Remember this well, then. You don't become the Hokage to be acknowledged. The one who is acknowledged becomes the Hokage. Don't forget about your friends!... Besides, you have something greater than Shisui's eyes. You have the same heart. The real thing Shisui wanted to pass down was that... I already tried to do everything alone... and failed. This time... I'll leave it to my comrades.


----------



## Sanity Check (Jan 30, 2015)

Kishi should do a _what if_ series where he delves into how things go down if Itachi chooses differently.

Itachi's role is one of those -- would you assassinate Hitler to prevent World War II, -what if- questions.  What he did seems bad on the surface, but if his actions prevented a war that would have destroyed the entire village, he might have found some redeeming grace.


----------



## Cierra (Jan 30, 2015)

Itachi should not have done what he did, but I strongly believe that he did not have an evil heart.  He had so much love to give that it blinded him from seeing just what he was doing.


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 30, 2015)

> Itachi should not have done what he did, but I strongly believe that he did not have an evil heart



it would have caused more deaths if he haven't done it though.


----------



## Lammy (Jan 31, 2015)

Danzo apologists lolololol


----------



## Platypus (Jan 31, 2015)

Sanity Check said:


> Kishi should do a _what if_ series where he delves into how things go down if Itachi chooses differently.
> 
> Itachi's role is one of those -- would you assassinate Hitler to prevent World War II, -what if- questions.  What he did seems bad on the surface, but if his actions prevented a war that would have destroyed the entire village, he might have found some redeeming grace.


I wouldn't necessarily compare the Uchiha with Hitler, since the clan was Itachi's own family who wanted to stage a coup because they felt discriminated and Hitler was a warmongering, genocidal maniac


----------



## Grendel (Jan 31, 2015)

Reiji said:


> Bakawaii, you have no proof for your statements. You don't know, what Itachi did as a spy, you don't know, why he didn't kill Orochimaru - even though this is something that bothers me too - *and everything Akatsuki did, they could've done without Itachi.*
> 
> Reading your posts is like getting the impression, Itachi did something to you personally. Stop your assumptions based on unjustified hate.



I am not going to get into too much in this discussion...but why do people keep repeating the bold as if that somehow absolvers Itachi of his role in furthering Akatsuki's goals?

He still aided Akatsuki in the sealings and wether or not they could have been completed without his aid is irrelevant.  

If you take part in a group that murders someone and play a roll in that murder...you aren't all of a sudden innocent of your part just because the murder could have happened without you...


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 31, 2015)

> Danzo apologists lolololol



who?

i think you can read.


----------



## Deleted member 198194 (Feb 2, 2015)

Grendel said:


> I am not going to get into too much in this discussion...but why do people keep repeating the bold as if that somehow absolvers Itachi of his role in furthering Akatsuki's goals?
> 
> He still aided Akatsuki in the sealings and wether or not they could have been completed without his aid is irrelevant.
> 
> If you take part in a group that murders someone and play a roll in that murder...you aren't all of a sudden innocent of your part just because the murder could have happened without you...



"furthuring akatsuki's goals" implies more damage was done by them with him there than there would have been without him there

cooperating with and helping criminals for a greater purpose/plan is nothing new, undercover cops and fbi agents do this all the time


----------



## Platypus (Feb 2, 2015)

Hiruzen's statement is the only thing in this manga directly indicating that Itachi was sent to spy for Konoha. Though that doesn't automatically mean he was able to. 

Then there's Jiraiya having some barebones info about Akatsuki. Basic stuff like: "They're dangerous people and after Naruto.". Knowing that Akatsuki was going to wait three years (for some weird reason) is basically the most detailed intel he got. Chances are Jiraiya didn't even know the truth behind Itachi. Was Jiraiya even reporting to Konoha at the time of this travels? He hadn't been in Konoha for at least 12 years, assuming his encounter with Naruto in Part I was the very first one. If not, Itachi should've been reporting to somebody else instead of Jiraiya. But Konoha had no clue about Akatsuki, until Jiraiya spilled the beans. Who knows...

Literally one flashback panel of Itachi giving information to Jiraiya would've long ended this mystery. 

And if Itachi was indeed leaking information about Akatsuki, then his role in Akatsuki can be seen as that of an undercover agent.


----------



## Palm Siberia (Feb 2, 2015)

^ That brings up a question if Itachi knew something about Pain why didn't he tell Jiraiya about it. That could have saved his life if he knew some students from before took over the Rain...


----------



## Maroke (Feb 2, 2015)

This thread is like the Energizer Bunny.  Still going!!



Platypus said:


> Hiruzen's statement is the only thing in this manga directly indicating that Itachi was sent to spy for Konoha. Though that doesn't automatically mean he was able to.
> 
> Then there's Jiraiya having some barebones info about Akatsuki. Basic stuff like: "They're dangerous people and after Naruto.". Knowing that Akatsuki was going to wait three years (for some weird reason) is basically the most detailed intel he got. Chances are Jiraiya didn't even know the truth behind Itachi. Was Jiraiya even reporting to Konoha at the time of this travels? He hadn't been in Konoha for at least 12 years, assuming his encounter with Naruto in Part I was the very first one. If not, Itachi should've been reporting to somebody else instead of Jiraiya. But Konoha had no clue about Akatsuki, until Jiraiya spilled the beans. Who knows...
> 
> ...


That's why it's a head cannon.  He had to be leaking it somewhere which is why Jiraiya seemed to be the obvious choice but again no manga proof, just an educated guess.  

As to Konoha not knowing well that's just not even true.  Obviously Hiruzen knew.  He was the one who sent him.  But like everything else surrounding Itachi it was kept a very guarded secret.  I would be willing to bet that no one else knew about it except maybe the elders.  All the info that Jiraiya had from what you said except for the 3 years thing he basically threw at Kakashi in that brief skirmish in part 1.  



Palm Siberia said:


> ^ That brings up a question if Itachi knew something about Pain why didn't he tell Jiraiya about it. That could have saved his life if he knew some students from before took over the Rain...


How would Itachi know of any connection between the two.  He knew a lot is true but still.  I don't see how he would know that.  I also thought about this too, it would seem that, while he remained loyal to the village and would not have allowed harm to come to it, his priorities shifted.  Konoha was not necessarily top priority, but Sasuke fell into the position.


----------



## Lammy (Feb 2, 2015)

Itachi shoulda had a crime fighting alter-ego 

I wonder if Itachi's mission and life is revealed to the general Shinobi world?  

Itachi told Naruto to keep it a secret... WHY?! That doesn't make sense because that would only really be the only way to explain and possibly exonerate Sasuke... especially after killing Danzo! 

Best. Brother. Ever.


----------



## Maroke (Feb 2, 2015)

Lammy said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL



> I wonder if Itachi's mission and life is revealed to the general Shinobi world?
> 
> Itachi told Naruto to keep it a secret... WHY?! That doesn't make sense because that would only really be the only way to explain and possibly exonerate Sasuke... especially after killing Danzo!
> 
> Best. Brother. Ever.


x.x he told him to keep it a secret to protect the clans reputation....don't you remember?  

I had thought that would be the only way to clear Sasuke too but evidently they managed it with out telling.  I wouldn't say he was the best brother ever but he was definitely well intentioned.


----------



## Lammy (Feb 2, 2015)

The clan's reputation at the expense of his brother though? 

Itachi, again, has great foresight that Sasuke could get himself out of another tough bind


----------



## Platypus (Feb 3, 2015)

Maroke said:


> As to Konoha not knowing well that's just not even true.  Obviously Hiruzen knew.  He was the one who sent him.  But like everything else surrounding Itachi it was kept a very guarded secret.  I would be willing to bet that no one else knew about it except maybe the elders.


Whoops, you're right, the higher-ups or at least Hiruzen knew about Akatsuki. That brings up the question why he seemed to do jack shit about it. Was he getting word from Itachi that Akatsuki wouldn't try to kidnap Naruto at the time, hence Naruto seemingly being unprotected and free to do what he wanted? _Speculation!_ 


> All the info that Jiraiya had from what you said except for the 3 years thing he basically threw at Kakashi in that brief skirmish in part 1.


Still, during that skirmish between Kakashi and Itachi we got a flashback of Jiraiya telling the former about Akatsuki being after Naruto.


> How would Itachi know of any connection between the two.


Itachi telling him about the Rinnegan would've been enough. But then again, Itachi was probably kept in check by Obito and Zetsu. How much did he really know about Pain/Nagato? They seemed kinda sympathetic towards each other in the War arc and Itachi knew about the Rinnegan...


> he told him to keep it a secret to protect the clans reputation....don't you remember?


That obedience to Shisui though ...


----------



## Maroke (Feb 3, 2015)

Platypus said:


> Whoops, you're right, the higher-ups or at least Hiruzen knew about Akatsuki. That brings up the question why he seemed to do jack shit about it. Was he getting word from Itachi that Akatsuki wouldn't try to kidnap Naruto at the time, hence Naruto seemingly being unprotected and free to do what he wanted? _Speculation!_


I have a couple theories on why that was so and all are just as likely as the next. 
1.  The 3rd was a formidable opponent.  Who had the stones to walk in there and try to take Naruto....besides Orochimaru.
2.  Seems like there was a problem with the GM statue and so everything had to be put off
3.  Obito was not about to go, or send someone else, waltzing into to Konoha and attempt to take Naruto.  Not while Itachi was still alive and kicking.  (that actually has some manga base to it)



> Still, during that skirmish between Kakashi and Itachi we got a flashback of Jiraiya telling the former about Akatsuki being after Naruto.


And this is where the head cannon comes into play xD!



> Itachi telling him about the Rinnegan would've been enough. But then again, Itachi was probably kept in check by Obito and Zetsu. How much did he really know about Pain/Nagato? They seemed kinda sympathetic towards each other in the War arc and Itachi knew about the Rinnegan...


Itachi knew a lot about a lot of things it seemed.  There is a lot we can speculate on here.  Where was the information going, who was he passing it to, what did they know, ect.  I'm kinda wondering tho what happened after Hiruzen died.  Other then perhaps Danzo and the elders, he was the only one who was aware of Itachi's true status.   More speculation.



> That obedience to Shisui though ...


Well what  can you say.  They shared the same goals and ideals.


----------



## Lammy (Feb 3, 2015)

Shisui couldn't trust Danzo... so he trusted Itachi... and Itachi did everything Danzo wanted anyway...

Oh well, at least Itachi had a pet crow with overpowered eye to nurture when times get lonely.


----------



## Maroke (Feb 3, 2015)

Lammy said:


> The clan's reputation at the expense of his brother though?
> 
> Itachi, again, has great foresight that Sasuke could get himself out of another tough bind


We all know he's not going to win any big brother contests...but still, everything he did was for Sasuke, even at the expense of himself.



Lammy said:


> Shisui couldn't trust Danzo... so he trusted Itachi... and Itachi did everything Danzo wanted anyway...


Because by that point Danzo had him over a barrel.  



> Oh well, at least Itachi had a pet crow with overpowered eye to nurture when times get lonely.


It was an awesome crow!


----------



## Lammy (Feb 3, 2015)

Also, to anyone saying Itachi could not defeat Tobito/Pain... He most definitely could have, if he wanted to! He had the koto crow! 

And I'm not being funny, but I'm pretty sure there's a strong possibility that Itachi helped Tobito koto Yagura too. Explains about Itachi knowing the recharge time and the trust they have in the organisation. It also neatly segues in for Kisame to be his new partner.

- hahaha I have way too much fun nit picking and breaking apart Itachi.


----------



## Platypus (Feb 4, 2015)

Lammy said:


> Oh well, at least Itachi had a pet crow with overpowered eye to nurture when times get lonely.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Until this happened:

and this:



Poor crow 


Lammy said:


> Also, to anyone saying Itachi could not defeat Tobito/Pain... He most definitely could have, if he wanted to! He had the koto crow!
> 
> And I'm not being funny, but I'm pretty sure there's a strong possibility that Itachi helped Tobito koto Yagura too. Explains about Itachi knowing the recharge time and the trust they have in the organisation. It also neatly segues in for Kisame to be his new partner.
> 
> - hahaha I have way too much fun nit picking and breaking apart Itachi.


Seems unlikely. Isn't Kisame one of the first members, while Itachi is one of the latest? Kisame joined long after Yagura was genjutsu'ed. And the crow wasn't recharged till his death. Killer Bee even asked him why he didn't use it when he was alive.


----------



## Bender (Feb 4, 2015)

@Platypus

Since you're on such a roll how about you answer me this: Since Itachi is such an inner nice guy when no longer working as a double agent he and Sasuke are fighting Kabuto he subjects him to Izanami? 


From what's gathered from that  jutsu it's basically agree with me or die. Kabuto could've died of starvation and yet that's an act of kindness to him since Itachi sees him as similar to himself.(Someone else's words not mine)


----------



## Grendel (Feb 4, 2015)

afgpride said:


> "furthuring akatsuki's goals" implies more damage was done by them with him there than there would have been without him there
> 
> cooperating with and helping criminals for a greater purpose/plan is nothing new, undercover cops and fbi agents do this all the time



That isn't what that implies....he was an active participant and we mnow that the process slowed without oro there so the same can be said if itachi wasn't.  He also actively slowed down the people trying to rescue gara.  So if we assume the selaling was faster with him there and he slowed down the team trying to rescue gara...we can say he helped further theor goals...

The last part is irrelevant because he wasn't doing it as a plan to take akatsuki down by gathering knowledge as his plan in life was to die at sasuke's hand so he could be a hero...fanfic about him passing on info is just that because we see no evidence to support it other than speculation


----------



## tkpirate (Feb 4, 2015)

Grendel said:


> That isn't what that implies....he was an active participant and we mnow that the process slowed without oro there so the same can be said if itachi wasn't.  He also actively slowed down the people trying to rescue gara.  So if we assume the selaling was faster with him there and he slowed down the team trying to rescue gara...we can say he helped further theor goals...



the fact is by joining Akatsuki Itachi did more good than bad.without Itachi Akatsuki will attack Konoha and destroy it,even before than they actually attacked.
also without Itachi Oro wouldn't leave Akatsuki either.


----------



## Lammy (Feb 4, 2015)

Platypus said:


> Isn't Kisame one of the first members, while Itachi is one of the latest?



The timeline is iffy, but given that Itachi was asked to join Obito in exchange for his help the coup... so he must have had stuff to do. I think a big clue is he had long hair at that time and during the Kisame flashbacks.

The other possibility is that Danzo and Obito _AND _Shisui were working against the Mist village, but that's more unlikely I think. Or Obito simply genjutsued Yagura, without any need to Koto. Ao/Mei are simply mistaken about the koto jutsu.



Platypus said:


> And the crow wasn't recharged till his death. Killer Bee even asked him why he didn't use it when he was alive.



Well, ya see that's what I mean. Instead of programming a flimsy amaterasu on Tobito, he could have programmed a koto. Instead of goading Sasuke to kill his best friend and be a criminal, he could have just... not.



			
				tkpirate said:
			
		

> the fact is by joining Akatsuki Itachi did more good than bad.without Itachi Akatsuki will attack Konoha and destroy it,even before than they actually attacked.
> also without Itachi Oro wouldn't leave Akatsuki either.



That's like saying Obito did more good in Akatsuki than bad because, according to Madara and Zetsu's words, he was incompetent.

That's not a fact, that's just speculation. Repeated over again in this thread because you _want _to believe Itachi did more good in Akatsuki. When the truth of the matter is it's inconclusive and nonsensical.

Itachi's actions are from an interesting messed up compromised guilt ridden stressed emotional sense. As an Itachi fan, I am willing to admit that. It makes no _logical _sense without prescience. And it's terrifying y'all are quick to defend and justify him.


----------



## Maroke (Feb 4, 2015)

Lammy said:


> The timeline is iffy, but given that Itachi was asked to join Obito in exchange for his help the coup... so he must have had stuff to do. I think a big clue is he had long hair at that time and during the Kisame flashbacks.


Yes the timeline is insanely iffy but I think that's a bit of a Kishimoto problem there.




> The other possibility is that Danzo and Obito _AND _Shisui were working against the Mist village, but that's more unlikely I think. Or Obito simply genjutsued Ao without any need to Koto, and Ao/Mei are simply mistaken about the koto jutsu.



Or it could have been that simply Ao had a run in with Shisui and since he had the stolen Byakugan simply never forgot what it looked like.  Knowing what Shisui's ultimate tech was, when he saw Danzo using it, he put what he thought was 2 and 2 together and coming up with 4.  Logical, but I do not believe he ever saw Koto actually used till the 5 Kage summit.  Obito had no access to Koto.  Itachi secretly had one eye and Danzo had the other...which no one seemed to want to spill the beans on either. 




> Well, ya see that's what I mean. Instead of programming a flimsy amaterasu on Tobito, he could have programmed a koto. Instead of goading Sasuke to kill his best friend and be a criminal, he could have just... not.


I do not now nor will I ever believe that Itachi thought Sasuke would go down that road.  Itachi was passing on information to Sasuke and making himself to be Shisui's killer.  The Amaterasu was for killing Obito but Obito kept a secret himself...thus fail.  




> That's like saying Obito did more good in Akatsuki than bad because, according to Madara and Zetsu's words, he was incompetent.


Oh god Black Zetsu.  Most likely because he wasn't doing it the way BZ wanted it done 



> That's not a fact, that's just speculation. Repeated over again in this thread because you _want _to believe Itachi did more good in life. When the truth of the matter is it's inconclusive and nonsensical.


Well the fact of the matter is this. 
1.  He was sent to spy on the Akatsuki by the 3rd.  Hiruzen said so himself.  Where the information was passed on to or to whom is a mystery.  Kishimoto thought we didn't need to know.  It always made sense to me that it was Jiraiya.  Truth is we don't know.  We can't say he was a good spy or a shitty one because the author chose not to tell us.
2.  It is a fact that Konoha was not attacked nor was Naruto directly gone after by the Akatsuki specifically until *AFTER* Itachi was dead.  We know this because Obito said he no longer had to worry about his promise.  Obviously Itachi was able to hold Obito at bay.  What exactly it was that did is unknown.  Either he knew way more then he should have or Obito simply didn't want to tangle with him knowing how strong Itachi actually was.  I honestly believe if Obito had directly tried to go after either one he would have blown his cover and done something about it.....total speculation.



> Itachi's actions are from an interesting messed up compromised guilt ridden stressed emotional sense. As an Itachi fan, I am willing to admit that. It makes no _logical _sense without prescience. And it's terrifying y'all are quick to defend and justify him.


Well, his actions were his actions.  He did what he thought was best at the time.  Right or wrong that's what he did.  I can't say I agree with everything but I can also understand some of the logic....even if it is a little messed up but Lammy, you should know by now.  I'll defend him and justify what is justifiable.  I do not justify everything he did nor will I ever.


----------



## Lammy (Feb 4, 2015)

Hey we're running in circles here. I'm simply saying it's funny as hell that y'all seriously think his actions were good and that he was against Akatsuki. 

Also they were attacked under Itachi's tenure... Asuma died! Okay it was outside the village... 

Which brings into the other point: this delaying attacking Konoha- Akatsuki don't really care about the village- they only want the 9 Tails.

Would Itachi actually sacrifice Naruto in exchange for the whole village? How sympathetic was Itachi to Nagato's ideals?


----------



## Bender (Feb 4, 2015)

K, I was going to wait for Platypus to get his input on me asking about Izanami but I suppose I'll start being more actively responding in this thread.

@Lammy




> Would Itachi actually sacrifice Naruto in exchange for the whole village? How sympathetic was Itachi to Nagato's ideals?



I strongly doubt Itachi (despite helping capture the biiju for Akatsuki) would risk the endangerment of Konoha. Last time he was there with Kisame he could've tore Kurenai and Asuma apart easily but lowered the casualty rate to Kakashi which would shake Konoha off their tail for some time. 

It's only 2 1/2 years later that Konoha is more active about chopping down Akatsuki's numbers.  The reason for this being: the rookie 11 were stronger and wiser plus they had Naruto (who is just as much of a formidable foe to Oro and Akatsuki).


----------



## Lammy (Feb 4, 2015)

Would Akatsuki goal of world peace really endanger the village anymore than it already had been from other villages? Especially if Itachi was part of Akatsuki? 

Let's look at the heavy bromance between Itachi and Nagato:


I been re-reading and I had to laugh at this too: 
here 

Haha Itachi had no faith in Naruto's development with his tailed beast!


----------



## Bender (Feb 4, 2015)

@ Lammy


----------



## Maroke (Feb 4, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Platypus
> 
> Since you're on such a roll how about you answer me this: Since Itachi is such an inner nice guy when no longer working as a double agent he and Sasuke are fighting Kabuto he subjects him to Izanami?
> 
> ...


If you don't mind my putting my 2 cents worth in?  

I don't think it was a matter of agree with me or die it was more of see yourself for who YOU are and not be like everyone else.  When Kabuto saw himself as himself and not Orochimaru or anyone else that's when it stopped.  He could have still decided to keep fighting along with Obito and Madara.  



Lammy said:


> Hey we're running in circles here. I'm simply saying it's funny as hell that y'all seriously think his actions were good and that he was against Akatsuki.
> 
> Also they were attacked under Itachi's tenure... Asuma died! Okay it was outside the village...
> 
> ...


Yeah I know, we always manage to talk ourselves full circle...a couple of times.  I don't think everything he did was good and we have no real idea about everything he did as an Akatsuki member.  We just know that Konoha was pretty much safe while he was there.   As for Asuma, well, they kinda went looking for them.  Not that it was Asuma's fault, I also really liked Asuma and was sad when he died but that wasn't Itachi's fault either.  And while it's true they didn't care about Konoha, like with Gaara, they still would have had to infiltrate to get to him.  That in and of itself would have caused a mess just like when Pain did because you know full well Konoha wouldn't have just let them waltz in, nab Naruto and then walk out like they owned the place xD!


----------



## tkpirate (Feb 4, 2015)

Lammy said:


> That's like saying Obito did more good in Akatsuki than bad because, according to Madara and Zetsu's words, he was incompetent.


no it's not same.
Obito killed thousands of people,and also revived the Juubi.he did nothing good until his TNJ.



> That's not a fact, that's just speculation. Repeated over again in this thread because you want to believe Itachi did more good in Akatsuki. When the truth of the matter is it's inconclusive and nonsensical.


from what Obito said after Itachi's death,we can say that Itachi was a reason why Obito didn't attacked Konaha yet.did you remember what i'm saying?that makes it a fact.



> Itachi's actions are from an interesting messed up compromised guilt ridden stressed emotional sense. As an Itachi fan, I am willing to admit that. It makes no logical sense without prescience. And it's terrifying y'all are quick to defend and justify him.



justify him in what?that he killed the Uchiha and saved many more people?
i don't give a darn about defending Itachi,i'm just stating what happened in the manga.


----------



## Lammy (Feb 4, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> from what Obito said after Itachi's death,we can say that Itachi was a reason why Obito didn't attacked Konaha yet.did you remember what i'm saying?that makes it a fact.



Obito had already attacked Konoha years before lol. I don't disagree that Itachi's presence makes Obito and Pain cautious around Konoha/Sasuke. I only disagree with "does more good than bad in Akatsuki" and interpretations of whats good and facts. They are conveniences and opportunities. The little details and nuances and motivations are interesting.

Attacking Konoha isn't really Akatsuki's goal. That said, Itachi/Deidara/Kakuzu all failed in capturing Naruto outside the village. Though now that I think about it - Nagato would likely been more successful in capturing Naruto at any other moment. He was open to all sorts of talk no jutsu as a result of the collateral damage on Konoha...  in that instance, Itachi has great foresight again in not worrying about challenging Obito and Nagato about attacking the village! 




			
				Maraoke said:
			
		

> Yeah I know, we always manage to talk ourselves full circle...a couple of times. I don't think everything he did was good and we have no real idea about everything he did as an Akatsuki member. We just know that Konoha was pretty much safe while he was there. As for Asuma, well, they kinda went looking for them. Not that it was Asuma's fault, I also really liked Asuma and was sad when he died but that wasn't Itachi's fault either. And while it's true they didn't care about Konoha, like with Gaara, they still would have had to infiltrate to get to him. That in and of itself would have caused a mess just like when Pain did because you know full well Konoha wouldn't have just let them waltz in, nab Naruto and then walk out like they owned the place xD!



Haha yeah I gotta agree with you on these points. 

I still wonder what Itachi would have done if they had captured Naruto at those times (first encounter, or via Deidara/Kakuzu). Providing Sasuke was safe and Konoha werent in immediate danger, I think Itachi would probably be inclined to seal Naruto. And he'd have to worry about Konoha later when he crosses that bridge


----------



## SLB (Feb 4, 2015)

technically itachi was instrumental in recruiting deidara, so the whole "furthering akatsuki's goals" thing gains slight credibility.


----------



## tkpirate (Feb 4, 2015)

Lammy said:


> Obito had already attacked Konoha years before lol. I don't disagree that Itachi's presence makes Obito and Pain cautious around Konoha/Sasuke. I only disagree with "does more good than bad in Akatsuki" and interpretations of whats good and facts. They are conveniences and opportunities. The little details and nuances and motivations are interesting.
> Attacking Konoha isn't really Akatsuki's goal. The 9 Tails is. That said, Itachi/Deidara/Kakuzu all failed in capturing Naruto outside the village.
> Though now that I think about it - Nagato would likely been more successful in capturing Naruto at any other moment. He was open to all sorts of talk no jutsu as a result of the collateral damage on Konoha...  in that instance, Itachi has great foresight again in not worrying about challenging Obito and Nagato about attacking the village!



i mean Akatsuki didn't launch an all out attack.pain hated Konoha,also Oro did the same.so without Itachi they would launch an all out attack to capture the Kyuubi and destroy the village long before Naruto is ready to fight pain.
also Itachi can't challenge Obito or Nagato,because he knew he would die if he did that.


----------



## minniehyunnie (Feb 5, 2015)

Plot device Itachi.


----------



## Dragonus-BB- (Mar 28, 2015)

Edit: Woops, necro'd. I used search and...


----------



## Mikon (Mar 29, 2015)

Will people just stop calling it a retcon already? When you can see clearly even in chapter 7 that it was forshadowed from the very beginning? Also, i can give you a lot of more panels excluding the one in chapter 7 if you wish so
What i don't understand about the logic of some guys here is why Itachi should have done good things while playing the villian? that doesn't make any sense.Also, fact is that Tobi didn't order Pain to attack Konoha until Itachi's death


----------



## Platypus (Mar 29, 2015)

It's not a retcon, just a badly written plot twist.

It doesn't help that the _foreshadowing_ you mention, isn't actual foreshadowing at all until the actual twist.

I've recently re-read his outburst against his fellow clansmen. Nothing foreshadowing about that one. Same could be said about the "crying" thing. Someone who's reading that part unknowing about the Itachi twist would most likely think Sasuke was referring to himself or someone who died the night of the tragedy.



Mikon said:


> What i don't understand about the logic of some guys here is why Itachi should have done good things while playing the villian?



Not turning his younger brother into a maniac for starters.

Also, he got his priorities backward: 

Claims he wants to protect Konoha at all costs --> Threatens to leak classfied information.
Loves his brother more than the village (see previous point) --> Is perfectly willing to brainwash his brother into a Konoha drone.


----------



## Mikon (Mar 29, 2015)

Platypus said:


> It's not a retcon, just a badly written plot twist.
> 
> It doesn't help that the _foreshadowing_ you mention, isn't actual foreshadowing at all until the actual twist.
> 
> ...



First of all, i will apologize about my grammar once again before posting my wall of text 

For starters, about this page: 

Link removed

Which connects directly to this page:

Link removed

I really do not understand the logic in the first part of your post.
So, if you could not tell that the part (used as  a hint/forshadowing) IS a forshadowing BEFORE the twist, then the twist just got no forshadowing at all? 
Please tell me that you are joking, lol.

Thing is that it all makes sense once you know the truth (Which is the point in twists, don't you think? for things to make sense, as in Itachi's true goals, older panels and stuff), because Sasuke did say that there were memories of Itachi that he tried to repress, even to the point of forgetting it completly, as stated in these pages:

Link removed
Link removed

There was a twist in Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni in the fifth arc i think, that connects directly to the third arc, and then you can see all the forshadowing (the third arc served as a total setup for the plot twist in the fifth arc, much like in Itachi's case) so it's automaticlly is bad or with no forshadowing whatsoever?

Do you remember this page?: 

Link removed

Don't you wondered even for once why the hell the screen went black? Of course that at the time of this flashback, you could just think that Sasuke passed out and that's it to the scene, but when we do see the whole picture (the twist in this situation), you understand that the author just set his pieces to collect all together, as you can see in bottom left panel of this page:

Link removed

As for the return of Itachi in Part 1, everything connected with the twist just perfectly.
The death of the Hokage being his reason to return, Itachi running away from Jiraiya as if he couldn't kill him (even when he was with Kisame, are you kidding me?)

Link removed

even Kisame was surprised and thought that Itachi could have dealt with Jiraiya even all alone (and do not forget the fact that Itachi didn't kill even Kakashi in their encounter and he was holding Kisame back most of the time)


The fight of Itachi vs Team Kakashi in early Shippuden is another proof of Itachi just not wanting to kill them or even fight seriously. 
Itachi smiling when getting owned is another nice touch about his true motives and thoughts about Naruto's growth
Then you got the encounter of Itachi and Naruto just before the fight of Itachi and Sasuke
For a person that is just on this time in the story, you shouldn't think anything good about Itachi, am i right? That makes it a good forshadowing aswell, because the hints are troughout the story, not just in Part 1 or just in Shippuden. there were hints throughout the story

Even Itachi's old behaviour was part of the forshadowing.The speech of "even if you do hate me, that's what big brothers are for", Itachi poking Sasuke in the head almost everytime and pushing him aside is a huge hint about Itachi's love for Sasuke, because Itachi wanted to deal with all the burden alone, without involving his beloved little brother.
There is no point in this poking thing if it wasn't for the twist, which even was done in a brilliant way at their fight, with all the cover story of Itachi wanting Sasuke's eyes and approaching his head just for taking his eyes, only for him to poke him at the end just like the old days? are you fucking kidding me? that's how you should use flashbacks and execute a plot twist in a story.
Trying to confuse the audience with all his cover story and the speech of Itachi about reality and then the twist just explodes at the reader with a lot of information and pieces connecting to other points in the story that you thought were irrelevant or even the absolute backwards. Even the lines that he used to say along with the pokes were adressed in Itachi's death with a little touch to it, getting the impact even higher than it already was.

Just about his outburst against the clan and his father, you can clearly see how frustrated Itachi is about his clan's (and father) behaviour and thoughts about Konoha. wanting to rebel and taking over, not seeing the actual issue here. This line alone made it crystal clear. 
 "It's foolish to fear what we have yet to see and know". It's not really that hard to understand that Itachi means that their fear of Konoha was just ridiculous, which led to even a more ridiculous and bloody plan, one that will involve normal citizens and a lot of people will die because of that.

Lastly, i would like to adress the bottom part of your post. 
Itachi's threat to Danzo was just incase he will do something to Sasuke, the one that he put even above the village that he gave up everything for, which is why i fail to see the problem with that 
and about the Kotoamatsukami thing, Itachi did say that he hope that the day of Naruto actually using it on Sasuke will never come, but thing is that if actually there will be a valid reason to use that on Sasuke, that means that Itachi failed, Sasuke knows the truth and is going down the road becoming a crazy criminal, and then there will be no saving to him. I do not say that this is the greatest plan ever, but it's understsandable to the very least.

That' what i have to say about that subject, and of course that's just my honest opinion 
Please read everything before quoting me, and have fun


----------



## Bender (Mar 30, 2015)

Sooo many people with nostalgia glasses of pt.1. Itachi is a very calculating person and has been in the leaf longer than he has been with Akatsuki. He knows all the Shinobi and legendary figures. Moreover, he never made any strong attempt to harm Kakashi, Kurenai and Asuma. If he truly went full force he could have crushed them like ants. It's the same with when he fought Sasuke at that inn. 

Just because he Tsukiyomi'd Sasuke doesn't mean that he didn't think he would escape from it alive. As he knew Hiruzen he knows about the Sannin and that Tsunade could be capable of healing him and Kakashi. 

Be realistic people. Moreover, remember when he escaped Jiraiya? There's the Amaterasu jutsu. If he wanted to he could have exterminated Sasuke and the other Jounin back in Konoha.


----------



## Jagger (Mar 30, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> Itachi already admitted himself that he fucked-up royally with Sasuke and didn't trust in his strength. People need to let it go abit. The fact that Itachi failed in regards to his brother doesn't make him less of a character, really. It makes him more of one.


It's not that, but it's the irrationality of his acts that make no sense whatsoever, not to mention the constant praise he recieved from others (specially Hashirama, Hiruzen, Naruto and Sasuke) about his accomplishments which doesn't include much.


----------



## Bender (Mar 30, 2015)

As I said in thread I made some time ago: with Black Zetsu's uncanny sensing ability he could tell when Itachi was being suspicious. Moreover, Itachi also made sure Obito didnt touch the leaf nor Sasuke when he was alive. If he did he'd make sure the dude would taste the ground.

In Itachi's defense on his fucked up plan: he had no idea Sasuke would immediately gravitate to Akatsuki's side after killing him.


----------



## Milliardo (Mar 30, 2015)

Bender said:


> As I said in thread I made some time ago: with Black Zetsu's uncanny sensing ability he could tell when Itachi was being suspicious. Moreover, Itachi also made sure Obito didnt touch the leaf nor Sasuke when he was alive. If he did he'd make sure the dude would taste the ground.


 itachi couldn't do shit to obito it was plot protecting konoha and sasuke. 



> In Itachi's defense on his fucked up plan: he had no idea Sasuke would immediately gravitate to Akatsuki's side after killing him.


actually he knew sasuke would take a turn for the worse if he learned the truth thats why he tried to kill obito with the amaterasu trap and even a step further by brainwashing sasuke with koto.


----------



## Bender (Mar 30, 2015)

@Milliardo

Plot? No, more like sheer numbers of Akatsuki members. Also Obito notes that with Itachi gone he could fully enact his plans.


----------



## Zensuki (Mar 30, 2015)

Sasuke knew why Itachi did what he did.....Itachi burdened that responsibility for the sake of Sasuke staying alive and seeing Itachi live such a miserable life was something Sasuke could not forgive Konoha for (among murdering his clan). I'm sure Itachi expected that Sasuke could very well turn against Konoha. 

Didn't Itachi also be the spy Jiraya uses?


----------



## Jagger (Mar 30, 2015)

Bender said:


> As I said in thread I made some time ago: with Black Zetsu's uncanny sensing ability he could tell when Itachi was being suspicious. Moreover, Itachi also made sure Obito didnt touch the leaf nor Sasuke when he was alive. If he did he'd make sure the dude would taste the ground.
> 
> In Itachi's defense on his fucked up plan: he had no idea Sasuke would immediately gravitate to Akatsuki's side after killing him.


Itachi not attacking Akatsuki is not the problem, but Kishi's hypocresy by making Itachi admit of his constant failures, yet, still praising him as some sort of "hero that died for the sake of Konoha's peace" or an "amazing brother" which we both that isn't true for both statements.

He tortured Sasuke both physically and psychologically during the former's infancy and stage as a teenager. Leaving Obito and Zetsu behind and thinking Sasuke might or might not find out the truth was something incredibly naive from him that eventually worsened Sasuke's already inestable condition.


----------



## Bender (Mar 30, 2015)

@Jagger

It can be put like this, Itachi had he been honest and relied on his friends rather than striking up a deal with Obito to help him slaughter the clan and not touch Sasuke while begging Hiruzen to watch Sasuke is something he could have accomplished without unorthodox means. Like Naruto said "Itachi we to the grave a villain" when what we did averted a huge crisis.

It's like what The Boss from Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater did: being a villain but for heroic reasons.  Itachi is praised by the many people around him is because he was willing to endure the hatred of both his brother, Konoha shinobi, and lastly his clan to protect the innocents in Konoha. That is pretty heroic when you consider how the thought of when you execute it could mentally destroy a person. 

What Kishi is getting across is that despite his power and resources he could have asked for his friends rather than doing what he did with Sasuke and his clan.


----------



## Milliardo (Mar 30, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Milliardo
> 
> Plot? No, more like sheer numbers of Akatsuki members. Also Obito notes that with Itachi gone he could fully enact his plans.



what are you talking about? akatsuki works for obito so i guess you agree with me itachi couldn't do shit to obito but even without them itachi had no counter to kamui anyways.  

konoha could have been wrecked by akatsuki or other villages which kishi made sure it didn't go out that way. sasuke could have died a shit ton of times. so yeah plot kicked in.


itachi can't physically stop obito or akatsuki. there is literary nothing he can do by himself to stop them. he wasn't in the way. obito was using itachi to get to sasuke. thats why he kept itachi alive and didn't get rid of him. if obito didn't care about sasuke he could have killed itachi a long time ago walked into konoha like it was nothing and take naruto long before either one of them developed into the powerhouses they became. which that didn't even make since because he really didn't need sasuke at all.


----------



## Mikon (Mar 30, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> what are you talking about? akatsuki works for obito so i guess you agree with me itachi couldn't do shit to obito but even without them itachi had no counter to kamui anyways.
> 
> konoha could have been wrecked by akatsuki or other villages which kishi made sure it didn't go out that way. sasuke could have died a shit ton of times. so yeah plot kicked in.
> 
> ...



If i only had the time to search for the panel that Obito says "now that Itachi is dead, nothing stands in my way"


----------



## Zef (Mar 30, 2015)

Jagger said:


> It's not that, but it's the irrationality of his acts that make no sense whatsoever, not to mention the constant praise he recieved from others (specially Hashirama, Hiruzen, Naruto and Sasuke) about his accomplishments which doesn't include much.



This. 

I cringe whenever someone praises Itachi. 

Sasuke:*"My brother slaughtered my entire family for the sake of Konoha"*

Person listening to Sasuke:*"Wow,  your brother was a hero; I wish I could be like him!!"*.



When people learn of Itachi's "truth" they don't react with disapproval, or horror. It's as if killing your own family is something common in NV. Naruto's reaction was the worst though.

> Itachi tells Naruto he planned on further manipulating Sasuke with Kotoamatsukami. 

> Naruto gives him a thumbs up, and Bee smiles.

Like dafuq?


----------



## Bender (Mar 30, 2015)

@Mikon

I'm not busy so I can post the page where Obito says Konoha is no longer off-limits.

Link removed


----------



## Mikon (Mar 30, 2015)

Zef said:


> This.
> 
> I cringe whenever someone praises Itachi.
> 
> ...



For fucks sake, i typed something like 20 lines, and my computer just shut down 
ANYWAY...

They don't praise him because he killed his family, they praise him after learning that he had to do it to prevent a war, and even after that, he ran like a criminal (Itachi should be as much as a hero figure to the village at the very least, he is the reason that most of them even live, after all) living his life all alone, hated by the very same village that you saved, and even your brother
I don't say by any means that killing your own family is a good move, even not by Narutoverse standards, but it was the most logical way (and less bloody)
Itachi's actions are fucking underrated, like seriously? The only example that i can think of is let's say that you are a good soldier of the U.S army, you like the army, the country and the people. From the other way, you have your small city that you live there with your family and some more people from your own origin. Here comes the conflict, your father plans a coup d'etat and many people are thinking about killing the CGS along with the other army soldiers, and the only reason is that your father and family are suspicious of the army's behaviour towards them, will you join your family on that manner without any rejection at all? If you do, then you are the weird person in this case, not Itachi 
I don't mean to offense you or any of the guys here, but be reasonable when trying to criticize something or someone
Shisui planned to use his eyes to prevent the rebel from hapenning, and Danzo took his eye beforehand, so after Shisui's death and Danzo's provocations, the Uchiha's fate was doomed. 
Itachi did make the most painful choice, and even then people are surprised that someone praises his actions 

EDIT:

Thanks for the panel, Bender


----------



## Bender (Mar 30, 2015)

Reeaaaaaaalllly wish I had my laptop bout now........


----------



## Milliardo (Mar 30, 2015)

Mikon said:


> If i only had the time to search for the panel that Obito says "now that Itachi is dead, nothing stands in my way"



my fucking god? 

you people really are dense huh? as if i don't already know about that panel and it does nothing to refute my points either. also if you are going to quote somebody understand their points and back your counter argument with logic not bs. 

1.) itachi couldn't do shit to obito manga fact

2.) obito used itachi to get to sasuke manga fact

you guys didn't disprove them at all. if you can show me panels of itachi countering kamui maybe.. oh thats right you can't. 

obito used sasuke's fight with itachi as evidence of itachi not being a complete evil lunatic so obviously it was hazard of his plan to kill itachi early.

obito went so far as to say akatsuki's deaths were worth it just to get sasuke. thats manga fucking canon. 

now then my points stand and are backed by the manga. when you get real proof and actually use logic then get back to me. 

i swear its waste of time around here because nobody wants listen to reason they just try and win an argument....


----------



## Mikon (Mar 30, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> my fucking god?
> 
> you people really are dense huh? as if i don't already know about that panel and it does nothing to refute my points either. also if you are going to quote somebody understand their points and back your counter argument with logic not bs.
> 
> ...



There is nobody that can counter Kamui, so what's the point of this argument? even Madara can't counter Kamui, how the hell can you counter that? Sure you can understand the trick behind it and be creative, but that's it. Obito is a fucking loser, really
Obito of that time only got Kamui in his arsenal, what can he do to even win a fight? So you are saying that Obito thought that waiting years just for Itachi to die is considered early?  
Obito said that he was lucky that he didn't reveal all of his secrets to Itachi, because he will be dead by that time. and after Itachi's death, he said that nothing stands in his way anymore, and he can attack Konoha freely. I wonder who uses logic and who's not in this discussion


----------



## Bender (Mar 30, 2015)

Even with Kamui Obito would be eating dirt. Minato handed him his ass ans he didnt know the name of the jutsj. The same with Itachi.


----------



## Alucardemi (Mar 30, 2015)

Zef said:


> > Itachi tells Naruto he planned on further manipulating Sasuke with Kotoamatsukami.
> 
> > Naruto gives him a thumbs up, and Bee smiles.
> 
> Like dafuq?



And what's most bizarre in this, is that Itachi himself later admits that he fucked-up royally on his philosophy when it came to Sasuke and taking care of him.
Its contextually inconsistent, it makes Naruto and Bee look like idiots without actually making them look like idiots be a plot-point later. They just look like idiots, and that's that, when they're not meant to be idiots in that context built in-manga.

Silly Kishi.


----------



## Jagger (Mar 30, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Jagger
> 
> It can be put like this, Itachi had he been honest and relied on his friends rather than striking up a deal with Obito to help him slaughter the clan and not touch Sasuke while begging Hiruzen to watch Sasuke is something he could have accomplished without unorthodox means. Like Naruto said "Itachi we to the grave a villain" when what we did averted a huge crisis.
> 
> ...


No, it isn't heroic by any means. The complete anihilation of your entire family which may or may not include the assassination of children as well is something indisputable unheroic. Heroes are supposed to win at the end with no one winning, which makes it an idealistic concept that Itachi still tries to shove down our throat. 

Itachi was a failure, there's no arguing about that. He just delayed the inevitable outcome of a fourth World War which seems to be an exaggerated conclusion of things in the first place. Obito managed to reunite all Bijuu using Akatsuki as a proxy and Sasuke became even more of a maniac. Yay. 

What Kishi tried to get across is the unceasing uphold view of Itachi, through Hashirama and Hiruzen which said that Itachi had the "knowledge of a Hokage at the age of 7" which is such an immesurable amount of bullshit I cannot even diggest nowadays. 

Besides, Itachi's horrendous treatment towards Sasuke was completely unwarranted and just added irrationality to the entire "Itachi was actually gud!" plot.


----------



## Bender (Mar 30, 2015)

@Jagger

>_>

Goddamn man how difficult is it to understand that Itachi cut down the people he did to prevent a coup! Even if Itachi did prolong the fourth ninja world war he still did it in time for heroes Naruto and Sasuke to reach their potential.

@Zef

Naruto is impressed by how much Itachi sacrificed for the leaf not by him trying ro mind control Sasuke.


----------



## Milliardo (Mar 30, 2015)

Mikon said:


> There is nobody that can counter Kamui, so what's the point of this argument? even Madara can't counter Kamui, how the hell can you counter that? Sure you can understand the trick behind it and be creative, but that's it. Obito is a fucking loser, really


so you still don't understand?? why are you even quoting me then? lol

at least you admit itachi can't counter kamui so we are getting somewhere. i'm trying to explain why obito had use for itachi rather than itachi was in his way supposedly. if itachi was such a bother then obito would have had him killed.




> Obito of that time only got Kamui in his arsenal, what can he do to even win a fight? So you are saying that Obito thought that waiting years just for Itachi to die is considered early?


no thats not what i'm saying. read my friend read..



> Obito said that he was lucky that he didn't reveal all of his secrets to Itachi, because he will be dead by that time. and after Itachi's death, he said that nothing stands in his way anymore, and he can attack Konoha freely. I wonder who uses logic and who's not in this discussion


well uh kakashi said sakura was great at genjutsu.. so there. lol 

seriously, enough with this character said this or that so it must be true shit. learn to know the differences between blind hype and actual true reasoning.

heres what we know and what you have acknowledged already. itachi has no way around kamui therefore can't harm obito. so your assignment will be to explain to me how itachi can stop obito from causing harm to konoha while knowing this. if you give me one more line about some character saying something then i'm done. i am tired of that.


----------



## Bender (Mar 30, 2015)

@Milliardo

Ahem, excuse me sir but you do have some proof that Itachi wouldnt be able to do shit against Obito?  

How about his Susanoo? Can Obi's Kamui beat that?


----------



## Mikon (Mar 30, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> so you still don't understand?? why are you even quoting me then? lol
> 
> at least you admit itachi can't counter kamui so we are getting somewhere. i'm trying to explain why obito had use for itachi rather than itachi was in his way supposedly. if itachi was such a bother then obito would have had him killed.
> 
> ...



I don't know if you are trolling or not 
Kakashi said that she had potential at genjutsu, correct me if i am wrong, and it was Kishi's bad writing that he didn't do a thing about her genjutsu talent, learn the difference
Your logic is really a weird one. because even Hashirama doesn't have a way around kamui, what that means? that Obito>Hashirama? If anything, it's Obito that don't have a way around Itachi's techniques, or any other S-rank shinobi. Minato discovered the trick behind his jutsu in like 2 minutes. Obito can't do jack shit. I really find hard discussing with someone that ignores manga facts. Sure that not everything that the characters say are valid, but here you have something that says that NOTHING STANDS IN HIS WAY ANYMORE, what the fuck do you get from this line? like seriously? fuck, this has to be the most dumb discussion that i have ever had in any forum. There is no point to this, really. Just forget that and move on my friend


----------



## Alucardemi (Mar 30, 2015)

Bender said:


> Naruto is impressed by how much Itachi sacrificed for the leaf not by him trying ro mind control Sasuke.



Yeah, but you know, you'd think that Naruto would be against and somewhat call Itachi out on that. I mean, Naruto would never do inception on Sasuke and make him into a puppet just to protect the village. 

That moment was simply inconsistent with the rest of the manga, and I imagine it was so because sometimes Kishi gets carried away with his Itachi boner.


----------



## Milliardo (Mar 30, 2015)

@mikon

so basically you don't have an argument to back your claim. i think we are done here then. 


oh and i was joking with the kakashi sakura part. funny how you call that bad writing though


----------



## Mikon (Mar 30, 2015)

Aren't you the same person that said couple of posts ago that i am just trying to win an argument or something along those lines? 
Well, look at you now, that's cute tbh

OT, it really all comes down to wether you accept Itachi's actions or not
In the end, the other option was to join to the coup detat and that's even worse
You don't have to consider him as a hero (although he was kind of killing the bad guys that wants to overthrow the village)
but to understand that it was the better way among 2 bad choices, that's really all to this debate the way i see it.
The problems that i have with Itachi are slightly different. For example, killing little children (because i find it hard to belive that Sasuke was the only child at the time) or not showing Itachi doing something more signifact than getting a little angry at his clan


----------



## Milliardo (Mar 31, 2015)

ok just answer this for me. what do you tell someone when they ask you how itachi protects konoha from obito or how he stands in the way of obito's plans? 

give me that and we are square.


----------



## Mikon (Mar 31, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> ok just answer this for me. what do you tell someone when they ask you how itachi protects konoha from obito or how he stands in the way of obito's plans?
> 
> give me that and we are square.



I will say that Itachi stands in Obito's way because of their agreement of Konoha being off-limits 
And you chose the wrong guy to discuss about Obito's strength, because i really underestimate him, i see him as a horrible loser, lol
He can't do anything aside from the kamui, while at the same time, Itachi got a godly genjutsu, and he can use Tsukuyomi on Obito (Obito didn't show any genjutsu skills or genjutsu resistence skills, so you can't deny that)


----------



## Eylandos (Mar 31, 2015)

I was always bothered how Itachi could kill off his entire clan like that. Just seemed ridiculous and Kishi sucking his balls too much.......who am I kidding the entire manga is one big Itachi wank off session.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 31, 2015)

Zef said:


> This.
> 
> I cringe whenever someone praises Itachi.
> 
> ...



Nah, Hashi's was worst. 
he is like "I fought for my entire life to establish a place where children are safe, and can grow up to their adulthood" 

Sasuke "my brother killed my entire clan"

Hashi: "Wow! he is better than me! fuck all those children who died, and how he fucked you up when you were like 7 years old. Fuck the fact that he helped the Akatsuki, and made you a criminal, he is amazing! "

and I was like wonderful, Kishi. Just wonderful. 

Well, at least Minato did not suck his "dick" like the other 3 Hokages. 
that would have made me mad.


----------



## Bender (Mar 31, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> Yeah, but you know, you'd think that Naruto would be against and somewhat call Itachi out on that. I mean, Naruto would never do inception on Sasuke and make him into a puppet just to protect the village.




Sigh...

First ppl said that Kishi has hard on for Sasuke now they say he has hard on for Itachi.

Anywho, what good would it do to be angry at Itachi when he is already dead?  It's like yelling at statue. Just because you yell doesnt mesn its going to change its presentation. 

Also you're giving Naruto too much the high ground. He did say in part one he would beat Sasuke to a bloody pulp and drag him back to the village.  Dragging someone back against their will is fucked up.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 31, 2015)

Kishi has a hard on the uchiha in general.


----------



## Bender (Mar 31, 2015)

I lke the Uchiha too. They were fucked over by Danzo machinations and the 2nd Hokage's policies.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 31, 2015)

Well, if a fan likes them it does not matter really. However, when the author keeps sucking them off the whole time
that does effect the story overall.


----------



## Bender (Mar 31, 2015)

@Hussain

Honestly, Kishi did better job giving them balanced amount of  spot light than Toriyama with the Saiyans in DBZ.


----------



## Platypus (Apr 1, 2015)

The constant praise he got was cringeworthy indeed. 

"Your brother killed the clan I spent my whole life to form peace with to protect the village? Well, that makes him a better shinobi than me! *wink*" - Hashirama (paraphrased of course)



I know statements like these are supposed to commend Itachi for going through a lot of shit to protect the village, but there's always the idea lingering at the back of my head that this whole thing was basically orchestrated by Danzo and Obito to ensure the Uchiha's demise in order to collect their eyes/to remove a potential threat to their plans. Itachi was used as a tool to achieve just this.


And I agree with Milliardo on Itachi vs Obito. There's really nothing Itachi could've done to kill Obito, not to mention the rest of Akatsuki. Itachi was a way for Obito to reach Sasuke (another subplot that got thrown into the bin during the War arc). Going against Konoha while Itachi was alive would have ruined his plans with Sasuke, hence his statement about Konoha being no longer off-limits.

*@Bender and Mikon*:​
You do realise Minato had the perfect counter to Obito's Kamui, which is teleportation. Unless you truly believe into Flying Thunder Crow's existence  Itachi has no way to escape Kamui in CQC. The moment Obito lays hands on Itachi, it's all over. Minato barely escaped using FTG, which Itachi doesn't have. 

And Obito doesn't have genjutsu feats  ? What about mind controlling the Fourth Mizukage, while keeping his Bijuu in check? Or what about extracting and controlling Kurama? Genjutsu'ing Konan into revealing Nagato's location before finishing her off for good? Controlling seven Jinchuuriki, Bijuu included, at the same time? Itachi's best bet is Tsukuyomi, which Sasuke was able to break with regular Sharingan (Itachi probably did this on purpose though) and can be countered by another Mangekyo (Itachi's own words). Susanoo won't do shit against someone who can phase through every attack 5 min long and has Izanagi as backup. Obito could literally walk through Susanoo and stab Itachi between the eyes . Itachi was powerful back in the olden days , but we all know the power levels went through the roof since then, Obito's included.



Mikon said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Never mind my previous post. It was stupid. 

You brought up some good points.

What I like to address though is the scene with the Uchiha policemen. 

*Spoiler*: __ 






It's the only time recorded by the manga we see Itachi directly opposing his clan before the massacre. But in what way? By telling everyone they fail to understand his capacities, that he wanted to reach a new height...? It's kind of a stretch to think he's talking about the coup in some way or another, even after the twist. I feel like most people just assume he's talking about his clan's plans to attempt a coup d'?tat without reading what Itachi was actually saying. Was he already deceiving Sasuke, who he knew was listening, into believing his older brother was the villain? Perhaps. 
But if that's true, why the need to deceive the clan members, his father included. Maybe he was threatening them? Itachi doesn't come off as some sort of negotiator trying to prevent the coup and massacre from happening here. In fact, he never does iirc. Doesn't that reduce the whole image of Itachi trying everything in his might to prevent the coup while saving his clan to mere headcanon? Plenty of people, myself included, seem to assume this being part of Itachi's character however. It's logical to assume he did try his best to ease tensions between the village elders and the Uchiha, but there's no evidence in the manga to support these claims when you think about it. 
There being some hidden motivation behind the massacre was foreshadowed plenty of times, as you pointed out. Problem is, the coup and the village's attitude towards the clan wasn't, hence the whole plot twist falling apart imo. Kishi knew he wanted Itachi to be somewhat of a good guy, just didn't plan the motivation for it I guess. You could say he introduced a new element to the story (the coup) to explain another one (Itachi being on the good side), but didn't care to further elaborate on the former: explaining by something that's left unexplained. Which is a damn shame, 'cause I think the whole coup/massacre subplot had some serious potential.

About the information leaking and Kotoamatsukami thingy...

Originally, Itachi was willing to even endanger Konoha in order to protect Sasuke. Later on, he told both Sasuke and Naruto he wanted to use Kotoamatsukami to make sure Sasuke would protect Konoha if Sasuke was to endanger Konoha. Doesn't that seem a little inconsistent? He was willing to reverse Sasuke's ideology in order to protect the village he threatened to spill information about if Danzo didn't stay away from Sasuke. Well, in the end, edo Itachi was able to indirectly convince Sasuke into not attacking Konoha without the use of Koto-like methods.

Not to mention his half-assed plan to make Sasuke a hero of Konoha. Telling his brother to seek revenge and hatred, to become more powerful by killing his closest friend, a Konoha shinobi? You'd expect more from someone who's been acclaimed a genius throughout the whole manga. The Uchiha in general tend to do stupid things because of their genetic mental illness, if you could call it that way. I wonder if the Curse of Hatred also influenced Shisui's and Itachi's decision making in some way . Tobirama implied it was a genetic thing, contrary to the Will of Fire, which is an ideology. It's not that unreasonable to think it affected even the ones who were portrayed as pro-Will of Fire Uchiha.




Bender said:


> What Kishi is getting across is that despite his power and resources he could have asked for his friends rather than doing what he did with Sasuke and his clan.


I wonder who could've helped him stopping the coup and the massacre.

How was little Sasuke going to convince his parents and the other clan members the coup was a foolish thing. Assuming Shisui ("Feared as one of the strongest and would do anything for his clan.") and Itachi ("the son of the clan's head and the connection between the village and the clan itself") did everything they could to change the clan's minds with no effect, what could 8 yr old Sasuke have done?



> Honestly, Kishi did better job giving them balanced amount of spot light than Toriyama with the Saiyans in DBZ.


Well, that doesn't say much about Kishi's writing quality does it?


----------



## Bloo (Apr 1, 2015)

Platypus said:


> The constant praise he got was cringeworthy indeed.
> 
> "Your brother killed the clan I spent my whole life to form peace with to protect the village? Well, that makes him a better shinobi than me! *wink*" - Hashirama (paraphrased of course)


(I'm only responding to this comment; I didn't care enough to read the rest.)

It depends on your idea of what a shinobi is. If your idea of a shinobi is someone who, as described by Shisui, serves as "a nameless shinobi who protects peace within the shadows," then Itachi _was_ a better shinobi than Hashirama.

If your idea of a shinobi is someone who can do ninjutsu very well, then Hashirama was better.

My idea of a shinobi aligns more so with the former, so I agree with Hashirama's sentiment.


----------



## Platypus (Apr 1, 2015)

Bloo said:


> (I'm only responding to this comment; I didn't care enough to read the rest.)
> 
> It depends on your idea of what a shinobi is. If your idea of a shinobi is someone who, as described by Shisui, serves as "a nameless shinobi who protects peace within the shadows," then Itachi _was_ a better shinobi than Hashirama.
> 
> ...



Hashirama wasn't just better at ninjutsu, he created the village system. Not to say the new system doesn't have its flaws, but it's certainly an improvement over the endless clan wars of the previous era. He created a strong ideology that enables numerous clans to co-exist in peace. Itachi didn't bring change to the world like Hashirama did. Itachi prevented the outbreak of a civil war, which could've resulted in shinobi world war. True, but in my eyes, Hashirama accomplished more. Itachi did what Danzo expected of him as a shinobi: killing the clan. Hashirama passed the boundaries of what a clan's warrior at the time was supposed to be (fighting other clans) and changed the world.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 1, 2015)

another annoying point about itachi is how much of a hypocrite he is. 

> Telling Naruto "don't do everything by yourself"
> going to Kabuto by himself, and trying to stop Sasuke.


----------



## Bender (Apr 1, 2015)

@Hussain

Dude... For all Itachi knew he would find back-up in taking on Kabuto.

@Platypus

Lol aint saying Kishi writing is perfect but I'm understanding what he meant even if it wasnt coherently projected to audiences.  Also the hard on for the Saiyans bothered me more than Uchiha being in Naruto story spotlight.

Also gotta agree with Bloo if thats what the ideal shinobi definition is.


----------



## Mikon (Apr 1, 2015)

Platypus said:


> And I agree with Milliardo on Itachi vs Obito. There's really nothing Itachi could've done to kill Obito, not to mention the rest of Akatsuki. Itachi was a way for Obito to reach Sasuke (another subplot that got thrown into the bin during the War arc). Going against Konoha while Itachi was alive would have ruined his plans with Sasuke, hence his statement about Konoha being no longer off-limits.
> 
> You do realise Minato had the perfect counter to Obito's Kamui, which is teleportation. Unless you truly believe into Flying Thunder Crow's existence  Itachi has no way to escape Kamui in CQC. The moment Obito lays hands on Itachi, it's all over. Minato barely escaped using FTG, which Itachi doesn't have.
> 
> And Obito doesn't have genjutsu feats  ? What about mind controlling the Fourth Mizukage, while keeping his Bijuu in check? Or what about extracting and controlling Kurama? Genjutsu'ing Konan into revealing Nagato's location before finishing her off for good? Controlling seven Jinchuuriki, Bijuu included, at the same time? Itachi's best bet is Tsukuyomi, which Sasuke was able to break with regular Sharingan (Itachi probably did this on purpose though) and can be countered by another Mangekyo (Itachi's own words). Susanoo won't do shit against someone who can phase through every attack 5 min long and has Izanagi as backup. Obito could literally walk through Susanoo and stab Itachi between the eyes . Itachi was powerful back in the olden days , but we all know the power levels went through the roof since then, Obito's included.



Just about the praise that Itachi got througout the manga, as an Itachi fan, it made me smile and laugh a lot :ho It was just in place 

Anyway, I just watched the Minato vs Obito fight yet once again (my favorite episode in the anime, the fight was done in an amazing way) and i can see where you are coming from, i mean, Minato was pretty much done for if it wasn't for his teleports and speed (the perfect counter as you said), but i really do belive that Itachi can analyze Obito's technique and do something about it, too
In the worst case, his only way will be Tsukuyomi, and i really do not see Obito breaking out of it, when Kakashi couldn't do a damn thing, and Deidara + Orochimaru got owned by NORMAL genjutsu

About Konoha being off-limits. hmm..i can kind of agree with what you said, but i truly think that there is more to it than just getting to Sasuke. Obito did say something like "if Itachi knew everything about me, i would be as good as dead for right now" and then comes the line of "With itachi's death, nothing stands in my way", it makes it seem like he was kind of afraid from Itachi to my opinion 





Platypus said:


> What I like to address though is the scene with the Uchiha policemen.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



I don't have what to say on that part, i agree XD (i still belive that this line was somewhat referring to the coup, though)




Platypus said:


> Not to mention his half-assed plan to make Sasuke a hero of Konoha. Telling his brother to seek revenge and hatred, to become more powerful by killing his closest friend, a Konoha shinobi? You'd expect more from someone who's been acclaimed a genius throughout the whole manga. The Uchiha in general tend to do stupid things because of their genetic mental illness, if you could call it that way. I wonder if the Curse of Hatred also influenced Shisui's and Itachi's decision making in some way . Tobirama implied it was a genetic thing, contrary to the Will of Fire, which is an ideology. It's not that unreasonable to think it affected even the ones who were portrayed as pro-Will of Fire Uchiha.



I agree on that aswell. I never understood how can Sasuke be considered as a hero if he would kill Naruto 
You could say that Itachi belived that Sasuke would not get stronger by the way that his killer brother just told him, but it's kind of a forced explanation tbh
What i never understood though is how the hell telling young Sasuke about the coup could have make a change 

Long story short, i agree with your points and i think that Kishi could have done that a lot better
To me, it's the most favorite twist, even with it's flaws (but let's be honest, what doesn't have flaws?)
I think that if Itachi was doing something about the coup on screen and if his plan about making Sasuke a hero was better, it would make one of the better twists out there

Oh, and something that i completly forgot about, have a look about those pages:

Scope-Kamui

You can tell how serious Fugaku is about Itachi entering the ANBU, and how important it is to him, don't you think? 

Also, this one

Scope-Kamui

Fugaku telling Itachi that he has to be an useful connection between the clan and the village...i think that you get it

Just wanted to point out some more hints that i just remembered, what do you think?:


----------



## Alucardemi (Apr 1, 2015)

With the Hashirama thing, that all depends on what your definition of Shinobi is.

To Hashirama, that is being one who endures through all for the sake of his dreams. And while Hashirama had to endure many deaths, and personally killing his best friend, I think its somewhat fair to say that Itachi endured more in his life to acheive his will.

Therefore, by Hashirama's own admittance and definition, Itachi really is a better shinobi.


----------



## Zef (Apr 1, 2015)

Hussain said:


> another annoying point about itachi is how much of a hypocrite he is.
> 
> > Telling Naruto "don't do everything by yourself"
> > going to Kabuto by himself, and trying to stop Sasuke.



Yup. 

The man is a walking contradiction. Itachi is not a complex character. He just looks that way because Kishi has characters praise him without pointing out his flaws.

You can take anything Itachi has preached, and point out how he doesn't follow his own sayings.


----------



## Mikon (Apr 1, 2015)

With who can Itachi go to Kabuto, though? 
Naruto and Killerbee are on their way to finding Obito, and Itachi just got out from Kabuto's control without anyone else near him. Also, he wanted to let Naruto to deal with Sasuke, he entrusted that role to him (if anything, the line with "don't do everything by yourself" fits with Itachi's decision if you didn't get it by now)


----------



## Maroke (Apr 1, 2015)

Mikon said:


> About Konoha being off-limits. hmm..i can kind of agree with what you said, but i truly think that there is more to it than just getting to Sasuke. Obito did say something like "if Itachi knew everything about me, i would be as good as dead for right now" and then comes the line of "With itachi's death, nothing stands in my way", it makes it seem like he was kind of afraid from Itachi to my opinion


It sure does doesn't it.  I've been saying this for a long time now but there was something about Itachi that made Obito even more secretive then he might would have been.  Might be that Obito actually knew what Itachi was capable of.



> What i never understood though is how the hell telling young Sasuke about the coup could have make a change



Because in hindsight that was the only thing he hadn't tried.


----------



## The All Unknowing (Apr 1, 2015)

Platypus said:


> The constant praise he got was cringeworthy indeed.
> 
> "Your brother killed the clan I spent my whole life to form peace with to protect the village? Well, that makes him a better shinobi than me! *wink*" - Hashirama (paraphrased of course)
> 
> ...


I agree about Obito having powerful genjutsu. However, the controlling of the 6 jinchuriki (not 7, Shukaku wasn't there) I believe was all due to Madara's rinnegan he got from Nagato. Also, Itachi's tsukuyomi may not work against other Mangekyo, but Obito never used his against a Mangekyo either. Though his actions imply that he couldn't win against him, by quietly just following Akatsuki orders rather than wiping them out, at the same time, Obito's actions also imply that he couldn't kill Itachi. By agreeing to leave Konoha and Sasuke alone, then being too afraid to go after them the whole time Itachi was alive, to the point that he went after Sasuke literally THE MOMENT Itachi died, and sent Pain to Konoha within days of Itachi's death. His actions imply that he wanted to go after both Sasuke and Konoha BADLY, but was afraid to do so until after Itachi died

As for the fight in the street from Shisui's death. It would still make perfect sense for him to be referring to the coup. Not so much bragging about himself as you saw it, but more saying that the clan in general got so weak, that he could smash a ton of them by himself


----------



## Bender (Apr 1, 2015)

@Platypus

Hate to be bearer of bad news but former Mizukage has zero feats to laud Obito controlling him as impressive.


----------



## Bender (Apr 1, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> With the Hashirama thing, that all depends on what your definition of Shinobi is.
> 
> To Hashirama, that is being one who endures through all for the sake of his dreams. And while Hashirama had to endure many deaths, and personally killing his best friend, I think its somewhat fair to say that Itachi endured more in his life to acheive his will.
> 
> Therefore, by Hashirama's own admittance and definition, Itachi really is a better shinobi.



Eretofore enough the bitching about people praising Itachi.


----------



## Platypus (Apr 1, 2015)

Oh?

Mind controlling the leader of one of the five main villages for years, Sanbi included isn't impressive? Genjutsu capabilities being compared to Kotoamatsukami aren't impressive either?

Dunno what people are trying to say here. Obito's weak? The guy who subdued the Juubi is a weakling? Can he be beaten by Itachi? Then why didn't he? The other Akatsuki members? Most of them didn't even know Obito was controlling the organization, why would they help Obito? Don't you see Itachi was a means to reach Sasuke? Obito had all the time in the world. He didn't rush his plans 17 yr ago, why would he now all of a sudden? Why would he risk losing both Sasuke and Itachi as powerful tools, while he could just trade one for the other like he did in the series?

How does your definition of a shinobi make Itachi a better one than Hashirama?
Let's see. 

The guy who killed an entire clan to prevent one war > The guy who reformed the entire system, preventing many (without having to exterminate a clan mind you) ?

 



Mikon said:


> Oh, and something that i completly forgot about, have a look about those pages:
> 
> Scope-Kamui
> 
> ...



 

It doesn't really foreshadow a coup, does it? Fugaku could've just been the grumpy father with high expectations for his sons. Itachi's behaviour could've changed because he was too stressed with/affected by the missions, expectations, being an ANBU captain, slowly becoming a sociopath, something like that. Hence Fugaku telling Sasuke not to become like his brother (not supporting the clan, acting mysteriously, having no friends, etc...). The elder son failed, now it's up to the younger one to live up to his dad's expectations  

Then again, you could argue that the coup was indeed somewhat foreshadowed by Fugaku's and Itachi's interaction(s). But the reason for the coup (the village's discrimination) sadly wasn't. Wasn't the clan even praised back in Part I? Don't have the panels to prove that, but I've seen people say this.


----------



## Milliardo (Apr 1, 2015)

The All Unknowing said:


> Obito's actions also imply that he couldn't kill Itachi. By agreeing to leave Konoha and Sasuke alone, then being too afraid to go after them the whole time Itachi was alive, to the point that he went after Sasuke literally THE MOMENT Itachi died, and sent Pain to Konoha within days of Itachi's death. His actions imply that he wanted to go after both Sasuke and Konoha BADLY, but was afraid to do so until after Itachi died


um what? did you not read my post? i guess its easy to ignore the guy who explained everything within this matter that contradicts your opinion.

can you show me manga pages of these actions? well i know you can't since that is your opinion not fact nor was there anything implying that.(still fun asking though lol)


ok lets go through this again since people are too lazy to read or go back a few pages where the argument started.  

itachi can't kill obito and he certainly couldn't defeat pain or the rest of akatsuki. so no he wasn't in the way of obito or akatsuki at best he could give limited info on them thats it. 

moving on along obito wanted sasuke and he needed to manipulate sasuke to his own gain. sasuke wouldn't just believe obito out of nowhere. there is also another thing here thats important to know. itachi was the only thing sasuke cared about so he was needed so sasuke could unlock his own ms over feeling the grief and pain of losing his loving brother. its important because he uses itachi's background with konoha to stimulate sasuke. 


obito had zetsu record sasuke fighting itachi. this is important because it gives obito the evidence he needs to prove to sasuke that itachi cared about him all along. thus sasuke will believe obito when he tells him what happened with itachi, konoha and the uchiha massacre. this works perfectly for obito because sasuke feels anger over what konoha made itachi do. not only that sasuke unlocks his own mangekyo sharingan. most importantly sasuke trust obito and uses obito for guidance.


it should be clear why obito kept itachi around for so long considering his goal was sasuke. now whether you read this or not is another matter. people generally ignore things to help their argument so i understand why you would. anyways my points stand and are backed by the manga so i'm done.


----------



## Bender (Apr 1, 2015)

@Platypus

Okay... First you is wanking Obito hard bruh. 

Secondly, is there ANY and I mean *ANY* bloody show of Yagura's feats? 

Third, you do realize we had any entire chapter of showing Obito struggling to control the juubi yeah? Moreover, this is Juubi with incomplete pieces of Kyuubi and Hachibi.  In comparison Madara mastered it in single chapter.

Furtherrnore, has Obito ever even  encountered jutsu of Tsukiyomi's caliber?

Plus, much of the Akatsuki members had never met Obito. Only one who knew his true nature as true head of Akatsuki are Pain/Nagato, Konan, Itachi ,Kisame and Zetsu. Even then that's still plenty of members. For shit sake thats the majority of the organization. Only Hidan, Kakuzu and Deidara had petty goals and overall had little interest in the purpose of Akatsuki. 


Lastly, the definition Mikon makes is somewhat similar to Naruto and Hashirama's of "endure". 

Hashirama had to make difficult decision of cutting down his friend Madara to save the village and Itachi had to do it to his entire clan (albeit with Obito's help).

Yeah...while it is applaudable of founding ninja system Itachi preventing coup is nevertheless impressive and one of the most hardest things for a nin to do.


----------



## Platypus (Apr 1, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Platypus
> 
> Okay... First you is wanking Obito hard bruh.
> 
> ...



Eww, Obito's gross. I'm not wanking him. 

He's still above Itachi on the power ladder though, 'cause shounen logic and my previous post. You've yet to try debunk anything except for the Yagura thingy. Does Itachi have Minato's teleportation and reaction skills, the very things that prevented 14 yr old Obito from kicking his ass? Don't think so... 

​
Tsukuyomi can be countered with the Mangekyou, like Soloking Itachi stated himself  What doujutsu did Obito have again?


*Spoiler*: __ 




Don't try to use the sucky translation as an argument, _same blood_ means _same eyes_ here 



As for Yagura:

He's Kage level
His Water Mirror Jutsu allows him to mirror even complex techniques like Rasengan (Team Obito vs Naruto and Bee)
He was able to control the Sanbi (Danzo and Databook)
Obito was able to control said "Perfect Jinchuuriki"
as his personal puppet
for years
leading the village
without anyone knowing

Not impressive at all . Not to mention controlling the 7 Bijuu. Madara did better? And this somehow proves Itachi's better than him?

Was Obito always surrounded by his fellow Akatsuki members except for Zetsu?

Do you still believe Itachi could've killed Obito if he wanted?

Well, at least you went from "Itachi's totes better than Hashi"  to "I guess what Itachi did was impressive too."


----------



## CyberianGinseng (Apr 1, 2015)

Hashirama built the village that Itachi was trying to protect from scratch. Itachi can't even come close to that level of accomplishment. Hashirama endured the War Torn Era, which is seriously hardcore. Had a peaceful childhood. Hashirama had to build his peace from chaos.


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 1, 2015)

Hashi is pretty much >> Itachi on everything except in Kishi's mind.


----------



## Bender (Apr 1, 2015)

@Platypus

You do know that Obito caught Minato off-guard there right?

Minato was focused on the kyuubi at that moment. That hardly counts. 

"Without anyone knowing? Lol fodder nin Ao noticed he was under a genjutsu. 

Obio was genjutsu dancing with Kakashi (same dude who fell to Itachi's Tsukuyomi).

Think logically man. You also didnt answer about  Obito countering Susanoo. To quote battle thread involving Itachi and Obito:



> Susanoo is too much for Tobi. He may be almost invulnerable due to Kamui but he needs to solidify to attack and when he does Itachi will be more than ready for him. Tobi does have the slight edge in stamina due to not dying from a terminal illness but that's all. Itachi is all around better than him.


----------



## Alkaid (Apr 1, 2015)

CyberianGinseng said:


> Hashirama built the village that Itachi was trying to protect from scratch. Itachi can't even come close to that level of accomplishment. Hashirama endured the War Torn Era, which is seriously hardcore. Had a peaceful childhood. Hashirama had to build his peace from chaos.



This. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the older a generation is, the stronger they were and the crazier things were. Hashi himself lost like what, 3 brothers? Madara lost a couple to. They were fighting as children against adults constantly. There's a manga page actually where you see Hashirama and Madara fighting and then a couple of dudes right next to them about twice their height fighting right them to them


----------



## Bender (Apr 1, 2015)

Alkaid said:


> This. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the older a generation is, the stronger they were and the crazier things were. Hashi himself lost like what, 3 brothers? Madara lost a couple to. They were fighting as children against adults constantly. There's a manga page actually where you see Hashirama and Madara fighting and then a couple of dudes right next to them about twice their height fighting right them to them



No Hashi lost two beothers.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 1, 2015)

Obito is stronger than itachi. That's obvious.


----------



## Bender (Apr 1, 2015)

@Hussain
Because you say so? He got beat by Kakashi and that same Kakashi got mindraped stomped by Itachi.


----------



## Platypus (Apr 1, 2015)

Bender said:


> You do know that Obito caught Minato off-guard there right?
> 
> Minato was focused on the kyuubi at that moment. That hardly counts.



Shinobi trying to catch each other off guard during battle doesn't count? Hmmm, okay then. How about Minato having to resort to FTG when Obito caught him with the chains?



> "Without anyone knowing? Lol fodder nin Ao noticed he was under a genjutsu.



I know. Ao detected it with the Byakugan, after multiple years . Are you seriously saying controlling a Kage-level Jinchuuriki through genjutsu for multiple years is some low tier shit? I've yet to see Itachi pull off something like that. 



> Obio was genjutsu dancing with Kakashi (same dude who fell to Itachi's Tsukuyomi).



​
Kakashi wouldn't be useful if Obito went right for the kill wouldn't he?



> Think logically man. You also didnt answer about  Obito countering Susanoo. To quote battle thread involving Itachi and Obito:



The quote refers to Obito as Tobi, does that mean it's dated as hell? C'mon, what attack does Itachi's Susanoo have which can constantly hit Obito 5 min long?

What about all other areas of combat, which Obito happens to outclass Itachi in? Ninjutsu: Katon: Bakufu Ranbu is on Madara's level; Mukoton; the Flame Barrier that couldn't be broken by Hachibi. Tajiutsu: fought directly with Kakashi, Gai and Naruto.

Also, Obito's Izanagi happens to exist.

And Itachi's Izanami needs prep (having a scenario happen at least twice iirc).

Totsuka can't hit things that keep moving. Not to mention someone who can phase through objects.

Yata Mirror won't do much against someone who can walk through everything.

Also the Kakashi Itachi beat in Part I << War arc Kakashi. This is obvious to everyone.

*This belongs to Battledome. Can't we talk about other things?*


----------



## Bender (Apr 1, 2015)

@Platupus

Battledome talk of Itachi vs Obi then:


----------



## Trojan (Apr 1, 2015)

Bender said:


> @Hussain
> Because you say so? He got beat by Kakashi and that same Kakashi got mindraped stomped by Itachi.



No, because itachi knows so.


itachi is obito's student, and he knows that he is weaker than him. Obito's feats shit on itachi's all day as well.
He wouldn't say that he "shall surpass him" if he already has.


----------



## Bender (Apr 1, 2015)

@Hussain

You do realize that he called Madara a "failure" in that same page you quotes yea?


----------



## Trojan (Apr 1, 2015)

and how does that have anything to do with power exactly? He called himself a failure as well.


----------



## Mikon (Apr 2, 2015)

Just wanted to point out that you guys are actually saying that Obito>Hashirama this way
I mean, if you are not the perfect counter for Obito (like Minato or even Kakashi), then you are pretty much fucked? I think that with knowledge (like in Konan's case) or even a good and a quick analyze throughout the fight, you can win against him. and leaving Obito aside for a sec, Itachi is the most powerful shinobi in Akatsuki excluding Pain, so i don't see why he won't be a threat anyway.


----------



## Bender (Apr 2, 2015)

@Hussain

Itachi was referring to how be was going blind , had failed to change his brother and had an illness.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

Mikon said:


> Just wanted to point out that you guys are actually saying that Obito>Hashirama this way
> I mean, if you are not the perfect counter for Obito (like Minato or even Kakashi), then you are pretty much fucked? I think that with knowledge (like in Konan's case) or even a good and a quick analyze throughout the fight, you can win against him. and leaving Obito aside for a sec, Itachi is the most powerful shinobi in Akatsuki excluding Pain, so i don't see why he won't be a threat anyway.



Yes, I don't believe Hashirama can defeat obito honestly. 

if he was a threat, he would have killed obito, but he can't. And no, the other Akatsuki is not an excuse, because Kakuzu had killed Akatsuki members before which is perfectly fine. They would just replace them. You don't see the other Akatsuki attacking Kakuzu, do you? 



Bender said:


> @Hussain
> 
> Itachi was referring to how be was going blind , had failed to change his brother and had an illness.



It does not matter, a fail is a fail. Just like how obito failed in destroying Konoha, and got his ass handled to him. It does not change the fact that he admitted that obito is stronger than him. I.E "I shall surpass him" as I already mentioned, the sentence wouldn't have been like that if he already has. Plain simple.


----------



## Mikon (Apr 2, 2015)

Maybe it's just me, but i really think that pre-war Obito is weak as fuck, just a little tricky


----------



## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

Even if he was "weak" which is obviously not the case, he is still stronger than itachi.


----------



## Platypus (Apr 2, 2015)

Mikon said:


> Maybe it's just me, but i really think that pre-war Obito is weak as fuck, just a little tricky



pre-War arc Obito (masked Obito I assume?) = War arc Obito. Except for the Rinnegan of course. There's no reason to believe otherwise, i.e. it's not like he got a sudden power boost after he killed Konan.



Bender said:


> @Hussain
> 
> You do realize that he called Madara a "failure" in that same page you quotes yea?



You do realize that he was talking about _surpassing_ Madara?


----------



## CuteKitten (Apr 2, 2015)

Itachi did what had to be done , because that while no body respected the Uchihas as the Cops of Konoha. Also i also thought since he was able to kill all of them then he would've been able to Lead them to somewhere else where they can live in peace.


----------



## Mikon (Apr 2, 2015)

As i said earlier, i think that defeating Obito is just a little tricky and requires a little thought to understanding his technique and countering it in a smart way (even if you are not Minato or Kakashi)
then again, Itachi for example can use Tsukuyomi, i don't see how Obito can counter that (the Tsukuyomi on Sasuke was obviously much weaker because Itachi didn't want to win anyway)


----------



## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

> (the Tsukuyomi on Sasuke was obviously much weaker because Itachi didn't want to win anyway)



Says you?


----------



## Mikon (Apr 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Says you?



You can't be serious


----------



## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

I am. 
and itachi himself claimed that who has the sharingan (or was it MS?) and has the uchiha blood can break the Tsukuyomi. Obito even has Hashirama's cells in top of all that. You're given itachi way too much credits. lol


----------



## Mikon (Apr 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I am.
> and itachi himself claimed that who has the sharingan (or was it MS?) and has the uchiha blood can break the Tsukuyomi. Obito even has Hashirama's cells in top of all that. You're given itachi way too much credits. lol



You can't take that statement seriously, lol
Itachi said that Jiraiya>=Itachi + Kisame, and it doesn't make any sense
most of what Itachi did in his life was deceiving other people
It's not too much credit when Obito is involved 
I am just saying that breaking from Itachi's Tsukuyomi is not a feat that someone has showed aside from Sasuke, and even that wasn't 100% because of his own skill, it has to be because of Itachi holding himself back, too, so i really don't see why to downgrade Itachi's genjutsu skills when we saw that he won powerful shinobis with just a regular genjutsu, and mindfucked someone with even the sharingan.
Didn't Kakashi said that breaking the Tsukuyomi is near to impossible? It happens in less than a second, afterall. The Tsukuyomi on Sasuke wasn't even like a normal Tsukuyomi when Itachi used to mindfuck them, it seemed more like a enhance genjutsu or a downgraded Tsukuyomi tbh 

EDIT:

And if Sasuke truly broke Itachi's tsukuyomi with just a regular sharingan and itachi was bloodlusted (which i don't belive) then i don't see the big deal from Itachi's tsukuyomi, and why it was hyped like this from Kakashi and even Kishi himself, lol


----------



## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

It's irrelevant if you think it makes sense or not. I don't want to go to other points. Both the manga, and the Databook, and even itachi himself agreed on that, so that how it is. 



> Sasuke, and even that wasn't 100% because of his own skill, it has to be because of Itachi holding himself back, too,



No, it was 100% because of his own skill. There is absolutly nothing that states that itachi was holding back with it. 
There is no downplaying for his Genjutsu, but rather you overrate him, and downplay obito.



> then i don't see the big deal from Itachi's tsukuyomi, and why it was hyped like this from Kakashi and even Kishi himself, lol



it is only hyperbole. Just like how the Amatersu was hyped to be as hot as the sun and all of that. However it turned out to be a shit tier jutsu with every single character being able to deal with it.


----------



## Bender (Apr 2, 2015)

Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi due to being strong-willed. Moreover, you forget that Obito said that if Itachi truly had sought Sasuke's death he'd wouldn't be breathing. Moreover, you failed to account that Itachi's health was far from perfect condition.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

Bender said:


> Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi due to being strong-willed. Moreover, you forget that Obito said that if Itachi truly had sought Sasuke's death he'd wouldn't be breathing. Moreover, you failed to account that Itachi's health was far from perfect condition.



- and Obito who controlled the Juubi is not strong-willed?
- And what does that have to do with that moment exactly? Yes, itachi could have killed Sasuke with the Susanoo. 

- And what does his health have to do with his Genjutsu exactly?


----------



## Alucardemi (Apr 2, 2015)

Mikon said:


> As i said earlier, i think that defeating Obito is just a little tricky and requires a little thought to understanding his technique and countering it in a smart way (even if you are not Minato or Kakashi)



You must be kidding.

People are seriously sleeping on Obito. I hate the fucker as much as the next guy after the mask came off, but lets be real here:


*Spoiler*: __ 









That was 14 year old Obito that he's talking about. 14, and he could control the summon the Kyuubi.

Something thought impossible:


*Spoiler*: __ 








At freaking 14 years old.

And Minato is right.

You really just can't fight Obito without a very specific set of abilities. 

Consider this: With the exception of Minato's instant Hiraishin, Obito has never been truly ever tagged in this series.

Let that sink in for a second. Even the triple threat of Kakashi, Gai and Naruto couldn't tag him without the counter of Kakashi's own Kamui.
Obito's defense is absolute, and without a very specific set of abilities(or just really overwhelming power), how are you even going to fight him one on one?

So, no. Kishi had to make him far too secretive and conniving and shit, but Obito has always been an absurdly top-class ninja, who has been above the usual kage level for quite some time, just like Itachi.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

Obito also learned all the uchiha jutsu, and the Sage's, and the Yin/Yang stuff. 
Link removed

In addition to having Senju's cells, and a powerful healing ability.


----------



## Garcher (Apr 2, 2015)

Hussain knows better than Obito/Kishi himself


----------



## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

Ignorance is a bliss. 
Did itachi learn those secrets after his death? 
And was that a head on battle, or a trap when Obito was off-guard? 

your selective reading is so pitiful


----------



## Garcher (Apr 2, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Ignorance is a bliss.
> Did itachi learn those secrets after his death?
> And was that a head on battle, or a trap when Obito was off-guard?
> 
> your selective reading is so pitiful


You are the only pitiful here - context




So tell me - what secret couldn't Itachi (the most intillegent character) figure out in a direct fight?

It's about Izanagi.

He didn't knew Obito had Senju cells and could use Izanagi to save his life when planting Amaterasu into Sasuke. That's it. In a direct fight Obito could use that trump ONCE - Itachi has full knowledge about Izanagi. And he knows with Izanami at least one way to easily beat it.

And now don't say something like "Obito would somehow catch Itachi offguard". Don't be ridiculous.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

> So tell me - what secret couldn't Itachi* (the most intillegent character)* figure out in a direct fight?



you pulled the bold out of your ass. 
itachi does not know about Obito's secrets, you putted that scan yourself. And that after staying with him for over 10 freaking years. What makes you think he will figure out in 1 battle what he couldn't do over all those years exactly? 

And even IF he did, who said he can counter it? Are you telling me he is better than the combined power of BM Naruto, Kakashi, B, and Gai? How delusional can you get?  



> It's about Izanagi.


and your proof is? Because we know that itachi knows about Izanagi. 



> He didn't knew Obito had Senju cells and could use Izanagi to save his life when planting Amaterasu into Sasuke.



Such a ridiculous conclusion. If an attack landed, Izanagi does not help, and that Amatersu got him off-guard. 
On the other hand, when Obito used Izanagi against Konan, he couldn't resotre his arm that was blown away BEFORE the usage of Izanagi. 
The same reason why Danzo remained damaged when Sasuke used his Chidori sword on him, and that's why Danzo kept looking at his arm to use the jutsu again
since it does not do anything if it's used after the attack. 



> That's it. In a direct fight Obito could use that trump ONCE - *Itachi has full knowledge about Izanag*i. And he knows with Izanami at least one way to easily beat it.



Good. So it couldn't have been it that he did not know about. 



> And now don't say something like "Obito would somehow catch Itachi offguard". Don't be ridiculous.



No, you are being ridiculous. I suggest you go and reread his fight with BM Naruto, Kakashi, Gai, and B. 
and when he got Minato off guard whose a billion time faster than itachi AND a sensor, how on earth wouldn't he get itachi?


----------



## Milliardo (Apr 2, 2015)

easily beat it with izanami? like he easily beat kabuto with it? 

in a direct fight with obito itachi couldn't touch him. obito wouldn't even need izanagi. itachi's only hope was to catch obito off guard like with sasuke. thats more likely why he brings up the secret bit. if itachi could actually kill obito then he would have been dead a long time ago.  

even minato tells naruto it will take some kind of special power to defeat obito. thats freakin manga canon. by some of the arguments here its basically like you guys are claiming ms sasuke could kill obito... thats just crazy to me.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

> easily beat it with izanami? like he easily beat kabuto with it?



you do know that Izanami needs a physical contact, right?
How is itachi going to do that once, let alone twice in the exact same scenario? 
He even said it's not good for battles IIRC. 

Edit:


I am kinda confused. lol
Sorry, I guess I misunderstood. -_-


----------



## Bender (Apr 2, 2015)

@ Hussain

Y'know Obi barely controlled the Juubi right?


----------



## Trojan (Apr 2, 2015)

He did nonetheless. It's not like if itachi is comparable to the Juubi anyway....


----------



## Platypus (Apr 2, 2015)

The All Unknowing said:


> I agree about Obito having powerful genjutsu. However, the controlling of the 6 jinchuriki (not 7, Shukaku wasn't there) I believe was all due to Madara's rinnegan he got from Nagato. Also, Itachi's tsukuyomi may not work against other Mangekyo, but Obito never used his against a Mangekyo either. Though his actions imply that he couldn't win against him, by quietly just following Akatsuki orders rather than wiping them out, at the same time, Obito's actions also imply that he couldn't kill Itachi. By agreeing to leave Konoha and Sasuke alone, then being too afraid to go after them the whole time Itachi was alive, to the point that he went after Sasuke literally THE MOMENT Itachi died, and sent Pain to Konoha within days of Itachi's death. His actions imply that he wanted to go after both Sasuke and Konoha BADLY, but was afraid to do so until after Itachi died
> 
> As for the fight in the street from Shisui's death. It would still make perfect sense for him to be referring to the coup. Not so much bragging about himself as you saw it, but more saying that the clan in general got so weak, that he could smash a ton of them by himself



Late reply, I know. 

Yes, Obito used the Rinnegan's Six Paths technique to control all 6 - not 7 - Jinchuuriki + Bijuu. My mistake.

Point is that another Mangekyo can break Tsukuyomi and potentially defeat Itachi (his words). 
Obito doens't need to defeat him using genjutsu, he has plenty of other ways.

Also you're missing Milliardo's point. Obito kept Itachi alive as a means to get Sasuke to join his side. If Obito killed Sasuke before the latter could fulfull his revenge, would Sasuke have joined forces with Obito? Doubt that. 

His outrage against the policemen could've been a threat. true. Still weird how people could see any foreschadowing of the clan's plans to launch a coup against the village in said exchange though.

*Can we please stop talking about Obito though? *


----------



## The All Unknowing (Apr 3, 2015)

I know you don't want to talk about Obito anymoee, but it's gonna bug the shit outta me if I don't reply to that point. Why do you think Obito intentionally kept Itachi alive in order to manipulate Sasuke? From the time of the massacre until Itachi's death, none of the facts that caused Sasuke to want to destroy the village changed. In my opinion, it makes just as much sense for Obito to be afraid of Itachi to the point that he simply waited and avoided conflict in order to allow Sasuke to kill Itachi, as Itachi wished. Zetsu even said during their fight that it seemed Itachi wasn't fighting to his full ability, theoretically in order to allow Sasuke to kill him and gain more power as explained later. And while his Mangekyo may be able to break Itachi's tsukuyomi, since he only had one Mangekyo, he may not have been able to, since each eye has different abilities and both are needed for some powers. It's very hard to speculate what the motivations could be without Kishi clarifying, which will never happen now unfortunately


----------



## Mikon (Apr 3, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> You must be kidding.
> 
> People are seriously sleeping on Obito. I hate the fucker as much as the next guy after the mask came off, but lets be real here:
> 
> ...



Thing is that i think that Itachi's tsukuyomi should deal with Obito
It's really depends wether you take Itachi's statement seriously (about the MS and defeating him) or Sasuke breaking out of it
It doesn't make any sense for Itachi to use tsukuyomi with the intent to kill on Sasuke if he was trying to let Sasuke to win in the end 
So as i already said, if you belive that Sasuke truly broke Itachi's tsukuyomi and that his statement during part 1 was 100% true, then i can see why you would think that Obito is immune to tsukuyomi's effect (which is weird anyway, because he did say that only someone capable of using MS can defeat him, not tsukuyomi itself, and Sasuke broke through that with a regular 3-tomoe sharingan) Long story short, i belive that Itachi let him broke through his tsukuyomi (which makes more sense for the story and the situation) Thus, i do not belive that Obito can do something to prevent that, when Kakashi himself said that it's impossible to break that, and considering the fact that tsukuyomi truly occurs for less than a second in reality, even Killerbee  with the Hachibi should not be able to break through that
Also, when Sasuke said that Obito's story about Itachi doesn't make any sense and Sasuke should have died atleast for 2 times by now (During Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu), Obito said that had Itachi been serious, they would not been having this discussion over there


----------



## Platypus (Apr 3, 2015)

The All Unknowing said:


> I know you don't want to talk about Obito anymoee, but it's gonna bug the shit outta me if I don't reply to that point. Why do you think Obito intentionally kept Itachi alive in order to manipulate Sasuke? From the time of the massacre until Itachi's death, none of the facts that caused Sasuke to want to destroy the village changed. In my opinion, it makes just as much sense for Obito to be afraid of Itachi to the point that he simply waited and avoided conflict in order to allow Sasuke to kill Itachi, as Itachi wished. Zetsu even said during their fight that it seemed Itachi wasn't fighting to his full ability, theoretically in order to allow Sasuke to kill him and gain more power as explained later. And while his Mangekyo may be able to break Itachi's tsukuyomi, since he only had one Mangekyo, he may not have been able to, since each eye has different abilities and both are needed for some powers. It's very hard to speculate what the motivations could be without Kishi clarifying, which will never happen now unfortunately



I know Itachi let Sasuke win intentionally.

Sasuke didn't have the Mangekyou, but a regular Sharingan at the time though.

Which brings up the question why Sasuke didn't see through Itachi's lies during their battle. Itachi monologued about two pairs of Mangekyō forming the Eien no Mangekyō, then proceeded to try take Sasuke's regular Sharingan anyway. First time I noticed this. Seems like Sasuke didn't notice during their battle as well.

Anyway, I don't see a reason to believe Itachi's statement in Part I was false.



About Obito, again, if Itachi was able to defeat Obito he would have done so. Itachi knew masked Obito was the Big Bad after all.

Why did Obito keep Itachi around and kept his promises during the latter's life then?

Simple. Telling Sasuke the truth after he [Sasuke] had fulfilled his vengeance by killing Itachi, was the best way to manipulate Sasuke into joining his side.

Obito knew both the truth about the massacre and that Itachi wanted to die at Sasuke's hands.
Sasuke kills Itachi because the former believes his elder brother is evil --> Obito tells him the truth --> Sasuke's shocked and angry at Konoha --> Joins Obito's side.

Imagine Obito getting rid of Itachi before that. What would've happened? 
Well, firstly, Akatsuki would've lost another helping hand in capturing (Itachi didn't really contribute much here as far as we've seen though) and sealing the Bijuu inside the Gedō Mazō. Also, Kurama was to be captured and sealed after the other eight Bijuu for some unknown reason. Konoha being "off-limits" wasn't really a problem until Akatsuki had the Ichi- to Hachibi.
Secondly, how would Sasuke have reacted hearing his life-long goal (vengeance) had been taken from him by Obito? Not by joining Akastuki's side I assume.


----------



## The All Unknowing (Apr 3, 2015)

I don't disagree about Itachi likely knowing he would lose to Obito. However, I think Obito wasn't positive that he could defeat Itachi either. Thus letting him live until falling to Sasuke. I don't think there was any specific reason that Obito needed Sasuke, thus really had no reason to keep him alive. And if Obito didn't need Sasuke, therefore Sasuke wasn't a good enough reason to leave Itachi alive. On the contrary, Sasuke and Itachi dealt huge blows to his goal in the grand scheme of things


----------



## Milliardo (Apr 3, 2015)

The All Unknowing said:


> I don't disagree about Itachi likely knowing he would lose to Obito. However, I think Obito wasn't positive that he could defeat Itachi either. Thus letting him live until falling to Sasuke. I don't think there was any specific reason that Obito needed Sasuke, thus really had no reason to keep him alive. And if Obito didn't need Sasuke, therefore Sasuke wasn't a good enough reason to leave Itachi alive. On the contrary, Sasuke and Itachi dealt huge blows to his goal in the grand scheme of things



except obito wanted sasuke and stated losing the akatsuki members was worth getting sasuke. he was basically going to turn sasuke into nagato 2.0. later events fucked that over. 

i don't even understand why you think obito was scared of itachi because itachi couldn't touch(killing blow) obito nobody could. minato had the best chance because his powers were similar yet faster and he could mark obito and teleport right to him and kill him. itachi doesn't have teleportation so... its an important plot point that not just anybody could kill obito thats why minato said what he said. 

which brings me to my next point. obito could have attacked konoha on the spur of the moment and itachi unless near by wouldn't be able to flicker there in a moments notice to help out. obito doesn't have to seek out itachi to attack konoha but itachi has to seek obito out which would be extremely hard considering he doesn't have teleportation. we could go step further here and say if obito wanted to he could have ordered pain to kill itachi. i mean obito had plenty of options so he wasn't scared of itachi. 

killing itachi early basically kills sasuke's development. no mangekyo sharingan, no hatred bs, and no reason to leave konoha and go with orochimaru. it kills the story of sasuke. not only in story but out story it hurts the character. this is obviously one of the reasons kishi had obito place such interest in sasuke as well as itachi because itachi is a huge piece of sasuke's story. 


you obviously are ignoring these plot points otherwise there is no way you could think obito was scared of itachi or that he greatly hinder his plans. now i could understand if you were saying they were poorly developed story lines or something thats different. you can believe whatever you want thats your personal opinion but its pretty obvious in the manga itachi had no chance of killing obito or foiling his plans and both characters knew as much.


----------



## The All Unknowing (Apr 4, 2015)

Why did Obito want Sasuke? To manipulate him into resurrecting Madara as you imply with the Nagato reference? It never once was mentioned. In fact, it didn't seem as if he wanted to bring Madara back by his reaction to his reanimation. As well as by his becoming the juubi jinchuriki instead of Madara. His goal was the Infinite Tsukuyomi with or without Madara. Or Sasuke for that matter. He seemed to have no complaints with Sasuke becoming Orochimaru's next vessel initially. He showed no interest at all until after Sasuke killed Itachi. And maybe he could have killed Itachi and the entire Hidden Leaf. But he didn't. Why? He waited until Itachi was dead before contacting Sasuke at all. And before attacking the Leaf. It's all conjecture though. I think we can both agree that he did want to manipulate and use Sasuke. But disagree as to why. But we disagree about why.i don't think Sasuke fit into the Infinite Tsukuyomi plan. He was so entirely different thing. At least that how it looked to me


----------



## Platypus (Apr 4, 2015)

What Obito wanted to accomplish with Sasuke is a big question mark. Something about linking him with the Gedo Mazo? Putting him against Naruto? Isn't really important to this discussion though. Obito wanted Sasuke to join his side, and used Itachi as a way to do so. Point.


----------



## Milliardo (Apr 4, 2015)

The All Unknowing said:


> Why did Obito want Sasuke? To manipulate him into resurrecting Madara as you imply with the Nagato reference?It never once was mentioned. In fact, it didn't seem as if he wanted to bring Madara back by his reaction to his reanimation. As well as by his becoming the juubi jinchuriki instead of Madara. His goal was the Infinite Tsukuyomi with or without Madara. Or Sasuke for that matter.


as platypus said its irrelevant why he did want sasuke. the point is he did want sasuke. it could have been to help control juubi or just a powerful ally in the war. what i mean is that he would use sasuke like he did nagato. they were just tools.



> He seemed to have no complaints with Sasuke becoming Orochimaru's next vessel initially. He showed no interest at all until after Sasuke killed Itachi. And maybe he could have killed Itachi and the entire Hidden Leaf. But he didn't. Why? He waited until Itachi was dead before contacting Sasuke at all. And before attacking the Leaf. It's all conjecture though.


did i not explain all of this? you know why he waited bro lol. see you keep ignoring this point. i'm not going to explain this for like the fourth time here jesus. look back at my previous posts for why he waited.


as for your orochimaru bit well we didn't see itachi rushing to find oro either. for all he knew oro took over his little brother's body already. that was the person he cared most about in the world. sasuke could have died like several times before ever fighting itachi or meeting obito anyways so i don't see your point. 




> I think we can both agree that he did want to manipulate and use Sasuke. But disagree as to why. But we disagree about why.i don't think Sasuke fit into the Infinite Tsukuyomi plan. He was so entirely different thing. At least that how it looked to me


kishimoto pretty much blurs his reasoning in the war. it wasn't clear what he had planned for nagato either. i can agree on poor planning by kishi that much definitely.


----------



## Rain (Apr 5, 2015)

Itachi is your god.


----------



## Closet Pervert (Apr 5, 2015)

Itachi was a cool guy.


----------



## ShinobisWill (Apr 7, 2015)

I like Itachi, and I hate Sasuke with a passion. He's a terribly written character, imo.

But I do have to admit that a lot of Sasuke's problems are because of Itachi's obvious mistakes that everyone seems to gloss over, even Sasuke himself. (ESPECIALLY Sasuke himself). And no matter how you slice it, Itachi mentally traumatized his little brother when he didn't truly *need* to go that far. Not as far as he did. He literally pushed him towards hate and insanity, and placed him in a coma that required the _strongest_ medical ninja to snap him out of and repair. 

And that's even ignoring a lot of the other choices Itachi could have made *before* the mass murder.

(As for why Obito wanted Sasuke, I assume he just wanted him as an ally for the war and expected him to keep his hate towards the village, which would lead to him fighting the leaf during the war, but Itachi/Hashirama put a stop to that)


----------



## Jagger (Apr 7, 2015)

The All Unknowing said:


> I don't disagree about Itachi likely knowing he would lose to Obito. However, I think Obito wasn't positive that he could defeat Itachi either. Thus letting him live until falling to Sasuke. I don't think there was any specific reason that Obito needed Sasuke, thus really had no reason to keep him alive. And if Obito didn't need Sasuke, therefore Sasuke wasn't a good enough reason to leave Itachi alive. On the contrary, Sasuke and Itachi dealt huge blows to his goal in the grand scheme of things


Obito did state he needed Sasuke for a certain purpose, but it seems he found a way around it or Kishi merely forgot about that certain plot. Or Obito simply saw Sasuke's potential and decided to use it in his favour.

Besides, Obito waiting for Itachi to die couldn't have just been out of fear, but he was being clever. With Itachi out of the way, he was free to manipulate information and Sasuke's mind as much as he could without Itachi interfering.


----------



## Mikon (Apr 7, 2015)

I don't even see the need for Sasuke 
Obito just did everything alone anyway in the war, lol


----------



## Platypus (Apr 7, 2015)

Mikon said:


> I don't even see the need for Sasuke
> Obito just did everything alone anyway in the war, lol



*Spoiler*: __ 



​



Kishi forgot about it though, like many things introduced in the Kage Summit arc.


----------



## Mikon (Apr 7, 2015)

Platypus said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I remember this page. It's just funny considering that he did everything alone afterwards and all those efforts to get Sasuke on his side were pointless 

EDIT:

I wonder how much threads would be in KL without the Itachi related threads


----------



## Platypus (Apr 7, 2015)

There aren't that many Itachi threads left these days, but I'll take an Itachi thread over a pairing thread anyday


----------



## Mikon (Apr 7, 2015)

I was lurking around in these forums even before 2011, and there was almost always an Itachi thread in the main page of KL, as much as i remember XD
I liked only the Itachi/Jiraiya/Pain related threads, i don't like any other characters anyway


----------



## Rai (Apr 7, 2015)

Itachi who?


----------



## Platypus (Apr 7, 2015)

ℜai said:


> Itachi who?



Let me remind you:

​


----------



## Milliardo (Apr 7, 2015)

Mikon said:


> I remember this page. It's just funny considering that he did everything alone afterwards and all those efforts to get Sasuke on his side were pointless
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> I wonder how much threads would be in KL without the Itachi related threads


yea, it was a dropped plot line. many people thought it was stupid to introduce in the first place being a huge waste of time. it also means he really didn't have a major purpose for nagato afterwards either so the line about rinne tensei being wasted is bs. its only purpose was to shoehorn sasuke into final arc's story line. 

this is nothing new for kishi though and why most consider him a sloppy writer. 




Mikon said:


> I was lurking around in these forums even before 2011, and there was almost always an Itachi thread in the main page of KL, as much as i remember XD
> I liked only the Itachi/Jiraiya/Pain related threads, i don't like any other characters anyway


 oh i knew you were an itachi fan long before you revealed it my friend.

i've been around minute and usually when someone defends a character to a certain degree it means more than just wanting to prove a simple point.


----------



## Mikon (Apr 7, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> yea, it was a dropped plot line. many people thought it was stupid to introduce in the first place being a huge waste of time. it also means he really didn't have a major purpose for nagato afterwards either so the line about rinne tensei being wasted is bs. its only purpose was to shoehorn sasuke into final arc's story line.
> 
> this is nothing new for kishi though and why most consider him a sloppy writer.
> 
> ...



Nah, with Itachi i am serious 
Pain is my second favorite character after Itachi, but i can say without any doubt that he is stronger than Itachi, and that he is a bad character (got trolled hard in the end) I don't try just to defend certain character because he is my favorite or something like that, don't get the wrong idea. I can talk shit about something that i like if i truly think so, which is why i say that Dresrossa in One Piece is bad to my opinion and One Piece is my second most-favorite series (and i don't hate Dresrossa either)


----------



## Milliardo (Apr 7, 2015)

Mikon said:


> Nah, with Itachi i am serious
> Pain is my second favorite character after Itachi, but i can say without any doubt that he is stronger than Itachi, and that he is a bad character (got trolled hard in the end) I don't try just to defend certain character because he is my favorite or something like that, don't get the wrong idea. I can talk shit about something that i like if i truly think so, which is why i say that Dresrossa in One Piece is bad to my opinion and One Piece is my second most-favorite series (and i don't hate Dresrossa either)



relax bro its not a knock on you most people are like that. what i'm saying is most people won't stick around for an argument if they have little invested in it. i pegged you as a either an obito hater or an itachi fan because of the way you defended itachi's rep and the way you talked about obito. l was right with both actually. i'm usually never wrong on this because i use people's words as hints to their true feelings and their pov from how they start the argument.


----------



## Mikon (Apr 7, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> relax bro its not a knock on you most people are like that. what i'm saying is most people won't stick around for an argument if they have little invested in it. i pegged you as a either an obito hater or an itachi fan because of the way you defended itachi's rep and the way you talked about obito. l was right with both actually. i'm usually never wrong on this because i use people's words as hints to their true feelings and their pov from how they start the argument.



Thing is that i don't overrate characters that i like if i don't truly think so about them, as i already said...I don't like Chouji, but saying that he is stronger than Obito is not how i feel. I don't like Madara, but saying that Itachi is stronger than him is not something that i can agree with, either
In the very same way, if it was Madara instead of Obito, it's really the same situation, because i like Itachi, and dislike Madara, but i will not defend Itachi in this case, because that's different from my thoughts about it. You just assuming irrelevant things, without knowing me. I can totally stick to an argument against Itachi if it's power based and the other character is OP is fuck, (Madara/Hashirama/Naruto/Sasuke), but thing is that Itachi's arsenal is a little tricky, and i don't belive that Tsukuyomi is that weak of a technique, that even normal sharingan Sasuke broke through and that Itachi was totally serious, which don't make sense anyway. Also, his Susano is not ordinary, as he has the Totsuka sword and the Yata mirror, which were hyped to defend from any attack and seal everything that comes in contact. We really didn't saw any flaws to these weapons, and they come along with even the Susano, upgrading it, no matter from where you look at it, it makes him OP as fuck. I really think that people that deny certain things about a character are more of a haters than someone being a fanboy because he defends that. There is nothing wrong in liking a character and defending something that you think that really differs from your OWN opinion. Yeah, sure that some people are including their fanboy thoughts most of the time, but don't include me just because that's how i think, i can talk shit about everything, and it's no different when it comes to Itachi. You assume that when i say that i can exclude my fanboy thoughts about something, it's wrong? and when it comes to Itachi it's a special case or something?  Just because most people are like that doesn't make it any better, lol. I really think that you should reconsider your way of thinking and don't generalize things or people, just pointing it out. Using people's words as hints is not an unique things actually, it's pretty common, but just because you said that most people will not stick to an argument because of something, makes me wonder if it's your thoughts about me, too, because i defended Itachi and that most of my posts are not meant to taken seriously. I just want you to make it clear to me, i am not really angry or anything, just being honest


----------



## Milliardo (Apr 8, 2015)

didn't i say relax? 


look i going to tell you a secret everybody is biased. that includes me and you. so by default if we favor something in an argument( or anything) more than likely we are going to lean towards what we favor more often than not. it ranges depending on the person of course from an extreme fanboy/hater to modest fan or a person simply disliking something to a lower degree but nobody is free of it. thats the cold hard truth. 

its why you put so much weight behind obito's words regarding itachi when talking of being in his way or itachi could have killed him(obito) but chuckle and shrug off his words when he talks about needing sasuke. i'm just using that as an example i'm not trying to start an argument again because this topic got old a long time ago.

me being a sasuke fan met i was biased towards him and usually always argued in his favor more often than not. its why i mainly went into sasuke threads. so yea, i not free of it either as nobody is. 

i'm not trying to talk down to you bro i'm telling you how things are no bs.


----------



## Mikon (Apr 8, 2015)

What i am trying to say it's that everything that i said in this thread is really my opinion about this subject. I dislike Kaguya even more than Obito, but i cannot really say that Itachi is stronger than her, can i? 
Well, talking about Obito really doesn't interest me, let's move on


----------



## The All Unknowing (Apr 8, 2015)

Jagger said:


> Obito did state he needed Sasuke for a certain purpose, but it seems he found a way around it or Kishi merely forgot about that certain plot. Or Obito simply saw Sasuke's potential and decided to use it in his favour.
> 
> Besides, Obito waiting for Itachi to die couldn't have just been out of fear, but he was being clever. With Itachi out of the way, he was free to manipulate information and Sasuke's mind as much as he could without Itachi interfering.





Platypus said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting that. I seem to have forgotten about it. Strange how they suddenly tried working Sasuke into Obito's plan, then completely gave up on it after almost immediately afterwards. Though you're entirely correct. That one panel alone explains why Obito would leave Sasuke, Itachi and the village alone. It's a very half-assed attempt at justifying it after the fact by Kishi. In which case it seems that Kishi really rushed into the war arc. He left no time even for an attempt at Obito brainwashing Sasuke. And there's no outside motivation in the story for Obito to rush into the war rather than to take his time and develop/manipulate Sasuke. I mean logically, it would make much better sense to regroup the Akatsuki after losing Pain, Konan, and Itachi all in such a quick timeframe. The smart choice would have been to withdraw, regroup, and continue working on brainwashing Sasuke into his tool. The Akatsuki was missing Deidara, Sasori, Hidan, Kakuzu, Pain, aand Konan. And Kisame was off "spreading his wings". The Akatsuki was down to Zetsu and Obito. He seemed to be moving in the right direction, getting Sasuke and Taka under his command to add more military might. But then went and declared war when Sasuke was far from under his control. All of his planning and manipulation went so well for decades up to this point, and then within the span of about a week went completely against his patient, calm and calculated approach to his plan totally went out the window and all he ended up doing is successfully grooming a first-rate opponent and indirectly helped to develop Naruto as well. For supposedly being so intelligent, he really fucked that up

(Jeez. That went on far longer than intended. Sorry 'bout that lol


----------

