# Momoshiki vs JJ Madara



## Hachibi (Sep 4, 2015)

Location: where JJ Madara gave Sakura the stab.
Distance: 100 meters
Knowledge: None
Mindset: IC, to Kill
Restriction: None

Scenario 1: Momoshiki w/o any of the jutsu he absorbed (he can still absorb Madara's tho) vs One-Eyed JJ Madara (pre-Shinju)

Scenario 2: Momoshiki with all the jutsus he absorbed (aka Boruto's device's elementals attacks, Hachibi's Bijuudama and Shikamaru's shadow) vs One-Eyed Juubidara (Post Shinju)

Scenario 3: Momoshiki with Kinshiki and the jutsu above absorbed vs Two-Eyed Juubidara


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## Trojan (Sep 4, 2015)

> Location: where JJ Madara gave Sakura the stab.



That almost as good as mine (Madara Vs BZ)! 

anyway, Momoshiki wins.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 4, 2015)

He probably lose the ones where he doesn't have both rinnegan.

Madara's limbo clones negs with perfect susanoo all day in scene three.


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## Trojan (Sep 4, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> He probably lose the ones where he doesn't have both rinnegan.
> 
> Madara's limbo clones negs with perfect susanoo all day in scene three.



Momoshiki has the Rinnegan, he can see them.

PS is a Ninjutsu, he can absorb all of them and use it as he pleases.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Momoshiki has the Rinnegan, he can see them.


Great he will see a sword chopping his face off that's nice.



> PS is a Ninjutsu, he can absorb all of them and use it as he pleases.


Which is why he absorbed it when sasuke's PS blade put him on his back. He gets chopped up again by 10 PS blades neg diff and that's final.


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## Trojan (Sep 4, 2015)

> =blackguyinpinksuit;54296462]Great he will see a sword chopping his face off that's nice.


asword made of chakra. He can absorb it. 


> Which is why he absorbed it when sasuke's PS blade put him on his back. He gets chopped up again by 10 PS blades neg diff and that's final



Not sure which scene you're talking about. the only one time Sasuke used it, it was with Narudo's help btw.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> asword made of chakra. He can absorb it.


With what omni-directional absorption. They will be coming from all sides and angles he only got 2 absorption palms. We saw what happened we he couldn't use them. He gets split into sections.




> Not sure which scene you're talking about. the only one time Sasuke used it, it was with Narudo's help btw.


The sword wrecked his golem and he was left lying on his back defeated while everyone else was celebrating. He was wrecked by the sword until those nerds came in and tried to kill him but merely powered him back up.

In this battle he won't be so lucky. I haven't even brought up the CT meteor rain each satellite being around the size of the shinju stump. Madara is too much for this boy.


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## Trojan (Sep 4, 2015)

- he can absorb them the same way he absorbed the explosion when the scientist attacked him. 
-  he was conscious tho. 


> In this battle he won't be so lucky. I haven't even brought up the CT meteor rain each satellite being around the size of the shinju stump.



Does he even need to destroy them? he can stay away really. 



> Madara is too much for this boy.


Madara was fucked by teen Narudo and Sasuke. Momoshiki was taking on the as an adult with 2 other Kages.
and then Bolt had to save them with his Rassengan. U_U

but anyway, who cares, they are both terrible anyway. ..

stop replying to me, seriously.


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## Kai (Sep 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> stop replying to me seriously.


Fixed.


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## Trojan (Sep 4, 2015)

Lol, Kai. You're so mean.


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## Kyu (Sep 4, 2015)

This is how I see it:

Triclops Madara >> Toneri(Tenseigan Chakra Mode) ~> One-eyed Madara(Shinju absorbed)

Logic dictates peak Momoshiki murders Toneri whose best feat eclipses over anything Madara(pre-dual rinnegan) has done by miles. 

In a fight, I'll lean towards Momo since it took Rikudou Kyuubi Nardo & Tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke to defeat him, whereas one-eyed Madara got bitched when they were still getting used to their powers.

Triclops should put up a little resistance, before biting the dust.


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## ARGUS (Sep 4, 2015)

One Eyed Shinju Madara gets wrecked by Momoshiki 

unsure about DR JJ Madara, since he lacks soo many feats which is why i rank him slightly above VOTE naruto and Sasuke, 

Momoshiki required both of them to combine their powers, so he probably wins this


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## Platypus (Sep 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Momoshiki has the Rinnegan, he can see them.



Can he see through the eyes in his hands?


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## Trojan (Sep 5, 2015)

Platypus said:


> Can he see through the eyes in his hands?



His eyes function just normal. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.
He has a 3rd Rinnegan in his forehead as well.


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## Hachibi (Sep 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> His eyes function just normal. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.
> He has a 3rd Rinnegan in his forehead as well.



He only has the 3rd Rinnegan when he absorbed Kinshiki tho.


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## Platypus (Sep 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> His eyes function just normal. There is nothing to suggest otherwise.
> He has a 3rd Rinnegan in his forehead as well.



So it's actually safe to assume that he can see through his Rinnehands? Why is that?


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## Trojan (Sep 5, 2015)

Platypus said:


> So it's actually safe to assume that he can see through his Rinnehands? Why is that?



As I said, because it's function just fine, and there was no statement or implication that it does. 

and Danzo's sharingans' in his arms has light in them (can see) that's why he can use Izanagi, same
shit here.


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## Platypus (Sep 5, 2015)

Yet Danzo and Momoshiki never ever seem to use their secondary eyes to look at anything.

I don't see how Danzo's Sharingan permanently deactivating after Izanagi proves he could see through them previously. In that scenario it just meant that he could no longer use those Sharingan, pretty much like how Itachi's and Obito's left eye became useless after using Izanami and Izanagi resp.


>doesn't really act as if he can see through his Rinnehands

So your reasoning here is that "Well, it was never explicitly stated they CAN'T see through those eyes, so let's assume they can.".


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## Trojan (Sep 5, 2015)

> I don't see how Danzo's Sharingan permanently deactivating after Izanagi proves he could see through them previously.


Because Izanagi required that to be activated. With no sight, it won't work.



> >doesn't really act as if he can see through his Rinnehands


simply because Bolt's rassengan cannot be seen. 



> So your reasoning here is that "Well, it was never explicitly stated they CAN'T see through those eyes, so let's assume they can.".


The eyes are naturally can see. That their purpose. If anything, you're the one that needs to prove otherwise
because you're the one who's claiming the odds here. 

It's just like if someone (character) has extra arm or extra leg or whatever.

Just because Kishi did not show it to you from said character perspective does not mean that it does not work.


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## Raiken (Sep 5, 2015)

It took SPSM Naruto w/ Hagaromo's Yang Chakra & EMS/Tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke w/ Hagoromo's Yin Chakra
to be around equal or slightly superior to Dual Rinnegan JJ Madara.

It took 100% BSM Naruto and EMS/Tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke to be around equal or slightly inferior to Rinnegan Momoshiki w/ Kinshiki Absorbed.

Based on that, I personally would have Rinnegan Momoshiki w/ Kinshiki Absorbed around 1 Rinnegan JJ Madara level.

SPSM Naruto w/ Hagoromo's Yang Chakra >> EMS/Tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke w/ Hagoromo's Yin Chakra
SPSM Naruto w/ Hagaromo's Yang Chakra >>>> 100% BSM Naruto
EMS/Tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke w/ Hagaromo's Yin Chakra >> EMS/Tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke


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## Hachibi (Sep 5, 2015)

Meanwhile I still don't get why people think Naruto and Sasuke lost Rikudo power when they just lost the seals.

In fact, if they did lost that, they wouldn't cause as much destruction as they did when they fought each other.


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## Platypus (Sep 5, 2015)

Why would they've lost their Rikudo power-ups when 
(1) we saw only the Yin and Yang seals for Rikudo Chibaku Tensei disappear and return to Hagoromo;
(2) the very thing Sasuke received from Hagoromo, the Rinnegan, is still present in the latest canon material, which takes place years after the Kaguya Arc?



Geg said:


> Amenotejikara:
> 
> A ninjutsu using the Rinnegan *received from the Sage of Six Paths*. With in a certain range, the jutsu user can switch himself with the location of a target object in an instant. If the user switches himself with other objects in close-range combat, the user can evade enemy attacks in an instant, and can also attack by switching himself with a kunai or other weapon.


source:​


Hussain said:


> Because Izanagi required that to be activated. With no sight, it won't work.
> 
> 
> simply because Bolt's rassengan cannot be seen.
> ...



No, Hussain. It's literally never said, shown or alluded to that either Danzo or Momo can see through their "secondary" eyes. Having a bunch of extra eyes that can extend your vision should be a big fucking deal in combat. Then why were they never seen using it?

Why is it that a person needs to see through an eye in order to use said eye for Izanagi? The eye's connected to their chakra networks, no optic nerves to be seen anywhere. When Izanagi/nami has been used all that's left over is an empty shell so to speak: no more techniques, no more chakra and no more vision if the eye's connected to the brain with an optic nerve. The eye becomes useless in every way. Ofc they lose their sight if the eyes were used to see as well.

"The eyes are naturally can see. That their purpose."​
Just because 'eyes' are generally associated with 'seeing' doesn't mean that they can actually use those eyes to see in these (exceptional) instances.

In Danzo's case: he activates Izanagi meaning that the eyes on his arm will be deactivated one by one every minute or so while Izanagi's still on. Nothing suggest he could see through his arm's eyes. The purpose of the eyes here is to use Izanagi, not to see stuff.

In Momoshiki's case: absorbs chakra with his right hand Rinnegan and fires them back with his left hand Rinnegan. Again, nothing suggests he could see through either of those eyes. The purpose here is to absorb and fire attacks, not to see stuff, unlike his Byakugan.


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## T-Bag (Sep 5, 2015)

Madara would tear his ass apart in all 3 scenario. He's the jinchuriki of the 10 tails ffs.. and on stop of that he's just a strong and smart fighter.


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## Kushina san (Sep 5, 2015)

Madara 2 eyes>Momoshiki

1 eyes? uhm, i don't know. Probably Momo wins

And Madara jj is above to Naruto and Sasuke (1vs1)...just to remind.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

One-eyed Rinnegan Jūbi Madara is overrated as all fuck.

Toneri is easily above him, and on-par with Double Rinnegan Jūbi Madara.

Momoshiki is stronger than both, substantially.


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## T-Bag (Sep 5, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> One-eyed Rinnegan Jūbi Madara is overrated as all fuck.
> 
> Toneri is easily above him, and on-par with Double Rinnegan Jūbi Madara.
> 
> Momoshiki is stronger than both, substantially.



madara with dual rinnegan/3r'd eye is a lot more powerful than the very limited abilities he's shown. He was killed off pre-maturely. 

Toneri is a child compared to madara.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> madara with dual rinnegan/3r'd eye is a lot more powerful than the very limited abilities he's shown. He was killed off pre-maturely.
> 
> Toneri is a child compared to madara.



How? If anything I'd say they're quite even. At their apex, both display moon-level feats. Except Toneri's is much faster and focused as opposed to Chibaku Tensei.

Toneri also wields a golem capable of overpowering Kurama.

People vouching for Madara always present flimsy arguments, particularly the notion that equalling Six Paths Naruto and Sasuke makes him automatically superior to Toneri, *while ignoring that Bijū Sage Mode Naruto is much stronger than two years ago and could possibly be equal to his Six Paths self two years previously.*


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## Deer Lord (Sep 5, 2015)

Toneri has nothing on Rikudou hax.


Can't reply on the matchups here since I haven't watched the movie.


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## Kai (Sep 5, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> How? If anything I'd say they're quite even. At their apex, both display moon-level feats. Except Toneri's is much faster and focused as opposed to Chibaku Tensei.
> 
> Toneri also wields a golem capable of overpowering Kurama.
> 
> People vouching for Madara always present flimsy arguments, particularly the notion that equalling Six Paths Naruto and Sasuke makes him automatically superior to Toneri, *while ignoring that Bijū Sage Mode Naruto is much stronger than two years ago and could possibly be equal to his Six Paths self two years previously.*


Toneri was a mock Sage; he was closer to Obito in power.

Madara with both of his Rinnegan was Hagoromo's near equal.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

Kai said:


> Toneri was a mock Sage; he was closer to Obito in power.
> 
> Madara with both of his Rinnegan was Hagoromo's near equal.



Feats-wise, Toneri is far above Obito and rivals Madara.

I seriously don't see what puts Madara over the former.


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## Kai (Sep 5, 2015)

Feat-wise, Toneri is unrivaled in that case. He has been successful unleashing his full destructive capacity.
But we have Rikudo characters who didn't display their full destructive capacity who are stronger than Toneri. Six Paths Naruto/Sasuke, Hagoromo, Kaguya. Madara included.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

Kai said:


> Feat-wise, Toneri is unrivaled in that case. He has been successful unleashing his full destructive capacity.
> But we have Rikudo characters who didn't display their full destructive capacity who are stronger than Toneri. Six Paths Naruto/Sasuke, Hagoromo, Kaguya. Madara included.



Kaguya's Truthseeker Orb was implied to be planet-level, so I can easily buy her being stronger than Toneri.

And Hagoromo has a moon-level feat by, you know, creating the moon, lol. Plus his chakra is what made Naruto/Sasuke capable of battling Kaguya, so obviously he's stronger than Toneri.

But Madara? What makes him stronger than Toneri, whether it be by hype or feats?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Kaguya's Truthseeker Orb was implied to be planet-level, so I can easily buy her being stronger than Toneri.
> 
> And Hagoromo has a moon-level feat by, you know, creating the moon, lol. Plus his chakra is what made Naruto/Sasuke capable of battling Kaguya, so obviously he's stronger than Toneri.
> 
> But Madara? What makes him stronger than Toneri, whether it be by hype or feats?


Madara has no feats that make him stronger than Toneri. Its simple bias for Madara and baseless hype. Madara wouldn't have been able to defeat VOTE2 Naruto and Sasuke regardless of three having three eyes, much less their far more powerful forms in The Last and Boruto the movie.


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## T-Bag (Sep 5, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Kaguya's Truthseeker Orb was implied to be planet-level, so I can easily buy her being stronger than Toneri.
> 
> And Hagoromo has a moon-level feat by, you know, creating the moon, lol. Plus his chakra is what made Naruto/Sasuke capable of battling Kaguya, so obviously he's stronger than Toneri.
> 
> But Madara? What makes him stronger than Toneri, whether it be by hype or feats?



Hagomoro and his irrelevant brother created the moon _together_, just as sasuke and naruto did against kaguya. Madara was stated to be near Hagoromo's strength before he even obtained his 2nd rinnegan. With the 3rd eye he was definitely passed hagoromo's level, he was entering kaguya's lane slowly but surely. 

Toneri is not their level, don't be ridiculous


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> Hagomoro and his irrelevant brother created the moon _together_, just as sasuke and naruto did against kaguya. Madara was stated to be near Hagoromo's strength before he even obtained his 2nd rinnegan. With the 3rd eye he was definitely passed hagoromo's level, he was entering kaguya's lane slowly but surely.
> 
> Toneri is not their level, don't be ridiculous



Do you know what Hagoromo stated about Madara's strength?

He said, "_Now he [Madara] is trying to get close to me and my mother's strength._"

Trying.

Not, Madara's is close to my level.


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## The Undying (Sep 5, 2015)

Juubito's Sword of Nunoboko was hyped to be capable of destroying the world. Juudara is stronger than Juubito.

I think it's pretty clear that neither character was using their full destructive capacity, and for good reason, since they were trying more to reshape the world around their ideals rather than just blowing it up.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Juubito's Sword of Nunoboko was hyped to be capable of destroying the world. Juudara is stronger than Juubito.
> 
> I think it's pretty clear that neither character was using their full destructive capacity, and for good reason, since they were trying more to reshape the world around their ideals rather than just blowing it up.



When was it hyped to do that?

And even if it was, there's a clear difference between contradictory hyperbole and actual legitimate hype. Obito obviously isn't near as powerful as Six Paths Naruto and Sasuke, both of whom didn't approach planet-busting power even with their strongest attacks. 

And Madara using country-sized Chibaku Tensei meteors to wipe out the Alliance is the very definition of 'trying to blow it up'.


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## T-Bag (Sep 5, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Do you know what Hagoromo stated about Madara's strength?
> 
> He said, "_Now he [Madara] is trying to get close to me and my mother's strength._"
> 
> ...



One can safely assume he made it there with the 3rd eye. He became immortal on top of that.


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## The Undying (Sep 5, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> When was it hyped to do that?



When Obito described the technique. According to him, Hagoromo used the Sword of Nunoboko to reshape the world and it was also mentioned that it could just as easily be destroyed by the same blade.



> And even if it was, there's a clear difference between contradictory hyperbole and actual legitimate hype. Obito obviously isn't near as powerful as Six Paths Naruto and Sasuke



We were never shown anything about the specifics of how raw power compares between Rikudou characters, though. Naruto and Sasuke were already higher than Obito by virtue of speed alone.



> And Madara using country-sized Chibaku Tensei meteors to wipe out the Alliance is the very definition of 'trying to blow it up'.



I highly doubt those meteors would have blown up the planet if they had made full contact. Why would Madara try to destroy everything he just achieved?


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## ARGUS (Sep 5, 2015)

Funny how ppl think one eyed Jin madara is hagoromos level when non Jin hagoromos halves were spanking the shit out of him. Forcing him to run for his life and get his other eye 

Nlt seeing why toneri is up there when this is the same guy who got punked by BSM naruto a version far inferior to RSM 

After watching the movie. It seems that momoshiki isn't stronger than kaguya. Nor does he seem stronger than JJ hagoromo and TCM Hamura 
Given how easily naruto and sasuke shat on him once they combined their powers


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## Alita (Sep 5, 2015)

Is the boruto movie available for online view yet?


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## Alita (Sep 5, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> When was it hyped to do that?
> 
> And even if it was, there's a clear difference between contradictory hyperbole and actual legitimate hype. Obito obviously isn't near as powerful as Six Paths Naruto and Sasuke, both of whom didn't approach planet-busting power even with their strongest attacks.
> 
> And Madara using country-sized Chibaku Tensei meteors to wipe out the Alliance is the very definition of 'trying to blow it up'.


To be fair, that attack madara used was very casual.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2015)

^ Only some clips which show Naruto and Sasuke vs Momoshiki.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

The Undying said:


> When Obito described the technique. According to him, Hagoromo used the Sword of Nunoboko to reshape the world and it was also mentioned that it could just as easily be destroyed by the same blade.



I remember the reshaping bit, but definitely not the "easily destroyed by it" segment, either.

Scan?



> We were never shown anything about the specifics of how raw power compares between Rikudou characters, though. Naruto and Sasuke were already higher than Obito by virtue of speed alone.



We've seen the extent of "raw power" from both Obito and Madara. For the latter, it was a dozen Chibaku Tensei. For the former, it was four enormous Bijūdama, but even that wouldn't come close to planet-busting given we've seen the extent of a Jūbi's full power in Kurama's flashback, and it sure as hell wasn't planet-level.

Look, Naruto and Sasuke's strongest attacks have to, by default, be _much_ more destructive than Jūbi Obito's. Sasuke not only has Hagoromo's chakra powering him, but *all nine Bijū * lighting his Susanoo up like as Christmas tree. He's much more powerful than Obito ever was, and his final attack, therefore, shits on anything Obito can dish out destructive-capacity-wise. Remember, Obito only had seven Bijū inside him.

This isn't really up for debate. If a character has much more raw chakra and energy than another, his/her strongest attack will be much more powerful than the other.



> I highly doubt those meteors would have blown up the planet they had made full contact. Why would Madara try to destroy everything he just achieved?



I didn't say those meteors would have blown up the planet. But Madara wasn't holding back in the least.

You said Madara never showed his true destructive capacity because he had no reason to destroy everything.

The fact that he was using *country-sized* meteors contradicts that very notion. He was trying to fuck _a lot of shit up_, had those meteors landed from that height, the entire continent would've been flattened.


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## Raiken (Sep 6, 2015)

I've seen the fight against Momoshiki, there's so much destruction bullshit from just taijutsu, it's incredibly unrealistic when compared to the Manga, there's no way a fight should go like that unless they are both fighting in the 8th Gate or something. It's over the top animation to make it supa dupa cwl, I take everything the Boruto Movie throws at me with a grain of salt.
Instead I analyse what Momoshiki actual is and what version of Naruto and Sasuke he fought to scale how powerful he may be.
There's no way as far as  Chakra is concerned that Momoshiki w/ Kinshiki's Absorbed could be comparable to gaining Six Paths Sage Transformation after becoming the Juubi Jinchuuriki.
We know that Momoshiki managed just about managed to beat a version of 100% BSM Naruto & EMS/Tomoe Rinnegan Sasuke w/o Hagoromo's Chakra.
Obviously as far as Doujutsu is concerned, Momoshiki w/ and w/o Kinshiki absorbed is superior to Madara's 1 Rinnegan and Limbo Clone.
I also doubt he could absorb Gudoudama, but that's just speculation.

Overall, I'd say Momoshiki is around 1 Rinnegan JJ Madara level.
Madara's Six Paths Sage Transformation with his Gudoudama are likely far superior to Momoshiki's power even w/ Kinshiki Absorbed.
Momoshiki's 2-3 Rinnegan are superior to Madara's 1 Rinnegan.

And I don't think Toneri was on JJ Madara's level, he was just about beaten by some kind of Synced-100% KCM+SM Naruto, which I'd say was comparable to a 50% BM+SM

100% BSM > 100% BM > 50% BM+SM = Synced-100% KCM+SM > 50% BM = 100% KCM+SM > 100% KCM > 50% KCM+SM > 50% KCM

But Naruto got stronger from training as well, so I'd have it: Dual Rinnegan SM Madara = JJ Obito > 1 Rinnegan SM Madara = Tenseigan Toneri > Synced-100% KCM+SM = SM Hashirama.


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## Hachibi (Sep 6, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> I've seen the fight against Momoshiki, there's so much destruction bullshit from just taijutsu, it's incredibly unrealistic when compared to the Manga, there's no way a fight should go like that unless they are both fighting in the 8th Gate or something. It's over the top animation to make it supa dupa cwl, I take everything the Boruto Movie throws at me with a grain of salt.



You do realise that it's canon right? So even if it's "unrealistic" (lol, since this manga isn't realistic in the first place), you should take it.


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## Raiken (Sep 6, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> You do realise that it's canon right? So even if it's "unrealistic" (lol, since this manga isn't realistic in the first place), you should take it.


I mean based on standards and logic set by the Manga.
Taijutsu would just never be like that, it's typical Studio Perriot over the top animation, you cant use that as a basis for feats and scaling.


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## Hachibi (Sep 6, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> I mean based on standards and logic set by the Manga.
> Taijutsu would just never be like that, it's typical Studio Perriot over the top animation, you cant use that as a basis for feats and scaling.



>Logic
>Standard
 Both got throw out the window during the Kaguya fight. 

And beside, not surprise they can do that with Rikudo power-up (inb4 they lost it).


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## Raiken (Sep 6, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >Logic
> >Standard
> Both got throw out the window during the Kaguya fight.
> 
> And beside, not surprise they can do that with Rikudo power-up (inb4 they lost it).


Even displays of combat post-Hagoromo's Chakra were no where near like that.
We only seen those kind of Taijutsu feats with 8th Gate Gai, it's just bullshit animation to look supa cwl owsum mega.

Even though they're meant to be canon, the movies stink of Perriot's influence.
I accept the general events of the movie as canon and they did happen, but a lot of stuff like feats displayed with the animation, not so much.


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## Hachibi (Sep 6, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Even displays of combat post-Hagoromo's Chakra were no where near like that.
> We only seen those kind of Taijutsu feats with 8th Gate Gai, it's just bullshit animation to look supa cwl owsum mega.
> 
> Even though they're meant to be canon, the movies stink of Perriot's influence.
> I accept the general events of the movie as canon and they did happen, but a lot of stuff like feats displayed with the animation, not so much.



the "over the top" shit is still canon.

It's not like Kishi was "this movie is canon, except for the feats, Studio Perriot smoked the big one".


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## Platypus (Sep 6, 2015)

>Kishi himself wrote the movie script
>"let's take all this with a grain of salt"


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## Altair21 (Sep 6, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> the "over the top" shit is still canon.
> 
> It's not like Kishi was "this movie is canon, except for the feats, Studio Perriot smoked the big one".



He does this constantly. He sees something he doesn't like and he dismisses it as non canon.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2015)

>1-Rinnegan SM Madara being equal to Toneri
>Canon movie feats being dismissed because they look too impressive

l-oh-fucking-el


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 6, 2015)

Momoshikis strongest shown moves was a rock golem that was one shotted by PS and a big bijudama. He has no adequate defense to madaras meteor shower.


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## Raiken (Sep 6, 2015)

God you guys are idiots, bet you think Perriot's 6 Tailed Naruto VS Pain is canon to you plebs.
Pain's durability is canon to you fuckers.

I might actually return if any of you develop some actual brain cells.


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## Hachibi (Sep 6, 2015)

How is that comparable to Pain vs Naruto again?


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## Platypus (Sep 6, 2015)

Cos ep. 167's script was written by Kishi am I rite? 

It wasn't.


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## T-Bag (Sep 6, 2015)

Madara w/ Dual rinnegan + 3rd eye  is IMMORTAL, and his true strength wasn't even shown. The 3rd eye gave Madara limitless potential, it would have been ridiculous. Madara is the closest person to kaguya thanks to black zetsu. Momoshiki and toneri can't compare to that

The meteor showers and limbo clones were just a "distraction" (as per naruto)  to keep the company occupied while he  dominated the world with tsukuyomi and power'd up. Mads knew full well those techniques were not efficient to kill the new sasuke and naruto


----------



## Altair21 (Sep 6, 2015)

Yes, we're idiots because we actually take what's canon as canon.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 6, 2015)

How could people say madara was trying when he did that chibaku tensei. He mockingly called them "raindrops"(imagine what size they would have to be before he would recognize them as actual meteors). Another sign he was holding back is only have his limbo do taijutsu when even the databook say the are a copy of him with equal ability. Limbo and CT was only used as a distraction to get off mugen tsukyuomi.

Anyway his true power was showing when he was using planetary genjutsu and mokuton. He was gonna do more obviously but then it happened...

Also no i don't think he was strong as kaguya.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> God you guys are idiots, bet you think Perriot's 6 Tailed Naruto VS Pain is canon to you plebs.
> Pain's durability is canon to you fuckers.
> 
> I might actually return if any of you develop some actual brain cells.


Naruto vs Pain in 167 isn't canon since Kishimoto didn't write the script. THat's an adaptation of the manga. Both The Last and Boruto the Movie are canon since Kishimoto wrote the script for both and said they are. Cryorex, you're just denying it due to hatred of Studio Pierrot + wanting to keep your theory of Naruto and Sasuke getting weaker.


----------



## Clowe (Sep 6, 2015)

Based on the fight clip I saw I'd put Momoshiki on the same level as 1 eyed JJ Madara, I honestly don't think Naruto and Sasuke are as strong as they were as EoS, no Rinnegan techs besides Ameno, no Truthseekers, nothing. I also would't put Toneri on the same level as Juubito, sure his moon cutting feat was impressive but I'm sure any Rikudou powered character could replicate that feat, I don't see why not, we never saw the Nunoboko's capacity but by Hype and power scaling I don't see why it couldn't do the same, plus Toneri was defeating by a punch... a freaking punch in the face, lol talk about a glass cannon, that's some shitty durability.
Anyway 2 eyes JJ Madara > Momoshiki > Juubito > Toneri.


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## Altair21 (Sep 6, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Based on the fight clip I saw I'd put Momoshiki on the same level as 1 eyed JJ Madara, I honestly don't think Naruto and Sasuke are as strong as they were as EoS, no Rinnegan techs besides Ameno, no Truthseekers, nothing. I also would't put Toneri on the same level as Juubito, sure his moon cutting feat was impressive but I'm sure any Rikudou powered character could replicate that feat, I don't see why not, we never saw the Nunoboko's capacity but by Hype and power scaling I don't see why it couldn't do the same, plus Toneri was defeating by a punch... a freaking punch in the face, lol what a shitty villain he was.
> 
> Anyway 2 eyes JJ Madara > Momoshiki > Juubito > Toneri.



You don't lose rinnegan abilities when you still possess the rinnegan.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Based on the fight clip I saw I'd put Momoshiki on the same level as 1 eyed JJ Madara, I honestly don't think Naruto and Sasuke are as strong as they were as EoS, no Rinnegan techs besides Ameno, no Truthseekers, nothing. I also would't put Toneri on the same level as Juubito, sure his moon cutting feat was impressive but I'm sure any Rikudou powered character could replicate that feat, I don't see why not, we never saw the Nunoboko's capacity but by Hype and power scaling I don't see why it couldn't do the same, plus Toneri was defeating by a punch... a freaking punch in the face, lol what a shitty villain he was.
> 
> Anyway 2 eyes JJ Madara > Momoshiki > Juubito > Toneri.


And you base this on absolutely nothing. Two eyed Madara has INFERIOR feats to Toneri, so how is he weaker than Juubito? We saw the extent of Juubito and Madara's power, it wasn't anything close to Momoshiki's and Toneri's. 

'Sure the moon feat is impressive'-downplaying the, by far, best destructive feat in the entire series just to justify your own bias.


----------



## Clowe (Sep 6, 2015)

> You don't lose rinnegan abilities when you still possess the rinnegan



I'm aware of that, i just meant that it didn't seem like Sasuke went all out.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Clowe said:


> I'm aware of that, i just that meant that it didn't seem like Sasuke went all out.


He used Six Paths powered Perfect Susano'o alongside Naruto's Six Path Sage Mode Kurama Mode. He was going all out. Both Naruto and Sasuke are tiers above their teenage selves, the whole 'getting weaker' is a myth.


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## Clowe (Sep 6, 2015)

> He used Six Paths powered Perfect Susano'o* alongside Naruto's Six Path Sage Mode *Kurama Mode. He was going all out. Both Naruto and Sasuke are tiers above their teenage selves, the whole 'getting weaker' is a myth.



Did he? it seemed like good ol BSM to me, no truthseekers, no flying, no bijuu techniques besides Kurama, no golden eyes and chakra less face.


----------



## Blu-ray (Sep 6, 2015)

Scenario 1: Considering Momo boosted the Hachibi's Bijuudama to the point it could overpower even Naruto, Madara's own jutsu boosted and returned would likely finish him off, if they connect. Would be a different story if Mads had pre knowledge, but alas. If he survives the first jutsu return he most likely wins since he'll know not to do it again though.

Scenario 2: Same as scenario 1, except the whole immortality thing probably stops Momo from finishing Madara off. The Bijuudama is the only real threat too, though again, it's a serious threat.

Scenario 3: I dunno. I see them as too close in ability to put the other down.


Hachibi said:


> the "over the top" shit is still canon.
> 
> It's not like Kishi was "this movie is canon, except for the feats, Studio Perriot smoked the big one".


>Quoting Cryorex and rendering my super ignore useless.

I mean it's not like Naruto sent Kaguya flying into a mountain with a punch or Sakura punched a canyon or anything. Taijutsu never did that shit. Totes inconsistent with the manga.



Clowe said:


> Based on the fight clip I saw I'd put Momoshiki on the same level as 1 eyed JJ Madara, *I honestly don't think Naruto and Sasuke are as strong as they were as EoS, no Rinnegan techs besides Ameno, no Truthseekers, nothing.* I also would't put Toneri on the same level as Juubito, sure his moon cutting feat was impressive but I'm sure any Rikudou powered character could replicate that feat, I don't see why not, we never saw the Nunoboko's capacity but by Hype and power scaling I don't see why it couldn't do the same, plus Toneri was defeating by a punch... a freaking punch in the face, lol talk about a glass cannon, that's some shitty durability.
> Anyway 2 eyes JJ Madara > Momoshiki > Juubito > Toneri.



Using jutsu against Momoshiki is a no no, that's why. He'll simply absorb it and throw it back stronger. Naruto couldn't even so much as use Shadow Clones against him, something even Preta Path can't usually absorb.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Did he? it seemed like good ol BSM to me, no truthseekers, no flying, no bijuu techniques besides Kurama, no golden eyes and chakra less face.


Six Path Sage Mode's trait is the eyes. Truth Seeking Balls and Flight are optional. Six Path Sage Mode is the Sage Eyes (cross shape) without the Sage Pigmentation, Naruto was in Six Path Sage Mode when he faced Madara after Madara vs Guy and kicked his ass.


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## Deer Lord (Sep 6, 2015)

IIRC Madara's casual meteor shower was claced to be moon-level
(this is actually where Indra's arrow scales from)

so he really isn't inferior by feats.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> IIRC Madara's casual meteor shower was claced to be moon-level
> (this is actually where Indra's arrow scales from)
> 
> so he really isn't inferior by feats.


How high into moon level? Since Toneri's moon cutting slash was 50 exatons.


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## Clowe (Sep 6, 2015)

Ahhhh, so that's how it is, I heard he could absorb elemental attacks and fire them back but I didn't knew he could absorb pretty much anything.

So Naruto and Sasuke were limited during that fight then? they couldn't go all out in fear of making their opponent stronger?

But if that's the case why cound't Momo absorb the rasengan that finished him off? Plot?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Ahhhh, so that's how it is, I heard he could absorb elemental attacks and fire them back but I didn't knew he could absorb pretty much anything.
> 
> So Naruto and Sasuke were limited during that fight then? they couldn't go out out in fear of making their opponent stronger?
> 
> But if that's the case why cound't Momo absorb the rasengan that finished him off? Plot?


Boruto destroyed his absorbing Rinnegan via a transformation feint with Sasuke that mirrored Naruto and Sasuke vs Zabuza. Naruto then gave Boruto a giant Rasengan to counter the Elemental Bijudama Momoshiki used and overpowered it.


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## Hachibi (Sep 6, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Ahhhh, so that's how it is, I heard he could absorb elemental attacks and fire them back but I didn't knew he could absorb pretty much anything.
> 
> So Naruto and Sasuke were limited during that fight then? they couldn't go out out in fear of making their opponent stronger?
> 
> But if that's the case why cound't Momo absorb the rasengan that finished him off? Plot?



Boruto (with the help of Sasuke) destroyed the absorbing Rinnegan.

Ninja'd


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## Clowe (Sep 6, 2015)

Oh well, I guess i better watch the whole movie before joining these debates instead of basing my judgment on a single clip.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 6, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Ahhhh, so that's how it is, I heard he could absorb  attacks and fire them back but I didn't knew he could absorb pretty much anything.
> 
> So Naruto and Sasuke were limited during that fight then? they couldn't go out out in fear of making their opponent stronger?
> 
> But if that's the case why cound't Momo absorb the rasengan that finished him off? Plot?



Pretty much had to use Taijutsu and swordplay alone, at least until they pulled their megazords and one shotted him.


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## Deer Lord (Sep 6, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How high into moon level? Since Toneri's moon cutting slash was 50 exatons.





Each CT calced to be some 400+ km in diameter (in average, since they vary in size)  and has energy of roughly 2~3 exatons
madara made like 20 of those.

so overall 60+ exatons.

if you go for a low-end version it comes out around 25~30 exatons which is still moon-level.


meaning that madara's casual output is in the same ballpark as toneri's best tech (assuming that calc is legit, becuase I have seen ones pegging it to be in petatons).
gives you a clear look at who's superior.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Doesn't that mean they're near equals? Both attacks are extremely casual.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2015)

Yeah, I'm not getting the whole 'casual bit' about Madara from his supporters. If Naruto had to eat ramen and threw a Bijūdama Rasenshuriken at someone trying to prevent him from doing so, it doesn't mean he's necessarily holding back.

Madara has no hype, let alone feats, to suggest he's beyond whatever he did against Naruto/Sasuke. For fuck's sake, he spent the past day trying to *kill* them both, why would he hold back with Chibaku Tensei?

Nonsense, these arguments are.

Either way, Toneri's laser is much more focused (therefore potent), and faster. If Madara tried using Chibaku Tensei against Toneri, the latter would slice up the meteors faster than Sasuke did.

As far as I'm concerned, they're equals. People saying he's weaker than Jūbito are hilarious. Obito doesn't even come close to his feats.


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## Deer Lord (Sep 6, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Doesn't that mean they're near equals? Both attacks are extremely casual.


Assuming toneri is indeed in the exatons, cause most calcs I've seen place him at continent-level+

also toneri isn't so great at dura and stamina
naruto was stripping parts of his tenseigan cloak with his standart attacks in BSM.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Assuming toneri is indeed in the exatons, cause most calcs I've seen place him at continent-level+
> 
> also toneri isn't so great at dura and stamina
> naruto was stripping parts of his tenseigan cloak with his standart attacks in BSM.


Uh, his cloak was never stripped at all during the battle. His durability was shown to be greater than his Truth-Seeking Balls which were ripped to shreds by the Senjutsu-enhanced Odama Rasengan's Naruto used (remember, a Bijudama pre-Six Path enhancement could barely SCRATCH one). 

Toneri is moon+ level from his feat, which clacls (links please) put him just a continent+


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## Clowe (Sep 6, 2015)

Do you honestly think that if JJ Madara and Obito were fighting in the moon they wouldn't be able to replicate toneri's feat? Really? Two Juubi Jins?

Not to mention Toneri's durability is absolute shit...  the guy was defeated by a punch, a Kyuubi chakra  enhanced punch, but a punch nonetheless. Madara and Obito on the other hand have very impressive durability and regen abilities by virtue of being Juubi Jins, sorry but nothing I saw on The Last suggest that Toneri is on a Juubi jins level.

But anyway this thread is not about Toneri, it's about JJ Madara vs Momo, if you wanna discuss Toneri's standing among the god tiers make a dedicated thread for it.


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## Deer Lord (Sep 6, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Uh, his cloak was never stripped at all during the battle. His durability was shown to be greater than his Truth-Seeking Balls which were ripped to shreds by the Senjutsu-enhanced Odama Rasengan's Naruto used (remember, a Bijudama pre-Six Path enhancement could barely SCRATCH one).
> 
> Toneri is moon+ level from his feat, which clacls (links please) put him just a continent+


You should re-watch the fight than
naruto and toneri scuffuled for a while and at one point naruto hit toneri with a rasengan varient or something and the cloak around toneri's hands was blown off.
He did recreate it when he realized this tho.

Naruto's final punch blew off his entire cloak too.


as for the calc, google yields this:

this guy calced it to be 600-petatons for a solid moon (which it isn't)

also found ones that got even lower results, never found one that got exatons.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Do you honestly think that if JJ Madara and Obito were fighting in the moon they wouldn't be able to replicate toneri's feat? Really? Two Juubi Jins?


Only Madara's come close, Obito's aren't anywhere near the same ballpark than Toneri's. Toneri's attacks were Moon+, Obito's were Continent level. The gap's vast.


> Not to mention Toneri's durability is absolute shit... and that is a fact, he was defeated by a punch, a Kyuubi chakra  enhanced punch, but a punch nonetheless. Madara and Obito on the other hand have very impressive durability and regen abilities by virtue of being Juubi Jins, sorry but nothing I saw on The Last suggest that Toneri is on a Juubi jins level.


Toneri was defeated by a Six Path Sage-enhanced Kurama powered punch. Naruto has Six Paths Chakra, remember?* Obito was put out of it by a Sage Mode Rasengan for a bit, remember? * So how is he inferior to Toneri? Not to mention being cut in half by a pre-Six Path Chakra Biju Sage Mode + Majestic Attire: Perfect Susano'o.

Hell Madara was being cut in half, turned into a ragdoll, etc. by Guy's, Naruto's, and Sasuke's attacks, only reason he survived was due to his regen. Not his durability. While Toneri was tanking mostly everything thrown at him.


> But anyway this thread is not about Toneri, it's about JJ madara vs Momoshiki, if you wanna discuss Toneri's standing among the god tiers make a dedicated thread for it.


Discussing Toneri is still crucial for the discussion if you believe Naruto and Sasuke had gotten weaker since the War.


Deer Lord said:


> You should re-watch the fight than
> naruto and toneri scuffuled for a while and at one point naruto hit toneri with a rasengan barient or something and the cloak around toneri's hands was blown off.
> He did recreate it when he realized this tho.


Uh that wasn't his cloak. That was his Gudodama which he formed into a shield.


> Naruto's final punch blew off his entire cloak too.


Since it was a focused attack.



> as for the calc, google yields this:
> 
> this guy calced it to be 600-petatons for a solid moon (which it isn't)
> 
> also found ones that got even lower results, never found one that got exatons.


Shade180 posted the 50 Exaton calc here when the movie was being discussed in feats. And that method forgot the moon halfs started rotating independently.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2015)

If they don't have the feats for it, then yeah, they can't replicate it. Do you have evidence otherwise? 

What a stupid question.

And as for Toneri's durability, he got hit by a punch that overpowered his own moon-level laser. I wouldn't call that "absolute shit" at all. Certainly Madara nor Obuto have durability feats that are moon-level, anyways.


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## Deer Lord (Sep 6, 2015)

> Uh that wasn't his cloak. That was his Gudodama which he formed into a shield.


* Obito was put out of it by a Sage Mode Rasengan for a bit, remember? *
6:36


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> * Obito was put out of it by a Sage Mode Rasengan for a bit, remember? *
> 6:36


Huh, can't believe I missed that.


----------



## Clowe (Sep 6, 2015)

Madara tanking the same attack that defeated Toneri, and while weakened mind you 

Also Obito wasn't cut in half, he was just cut  and retarded JJ Obito blew half of his body up and regenerated that soon afterwards like it was nothing so that speaks for his regen abilities.


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## T-Bag (Sep 6, 2015)

just the idea of these 2 clowns (toneri and momoshiki) being more powerful than a juubi's jinchuriki is blasphemy!


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Madara tanking the same attack that defeated Toneri


Wrong. Madara first of all blocked with his Gudodama Staff. Secondly, Toneri shot his moon-busting laser at Naruto who overpowered it and THEN punched him.



> Also Obito wasn't cut in half, he was just cut  and retarded JJ Obito blew half of his body up and regenerated that soon afterwards like it was nothing so that speaks for his regen abilities.


No, but he was scorched by Enton: Rasenshuriken, turned into a pinball by Naruto's Sage Mode Rasengan, and cut in half from the waist down by Biju Sage Mode Perfect Susano'o.


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## Deer Lord (Sep 6, 2015)

Anyway SSM12, can't find the moon calc, if you have a link please post it.
But toneri's dura shouldn't be above juubito with the feats he had in that fight.

I wouldn't like to make assumptions about momoshiki before I've watched the actual movie.
Scaling off of naruto and sasuke seems iffy to me with the whole hagoromo chakra issue.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Anyway SSM12, can't find the moon calc, if you have a link please post it.
> But toneri's dura shouldn't be above juubito with the feats he had in that fight.
> 
> I wouldn't like to make assumptions about momoshiki before I've watched the actual movie.
> Scaling off of naruto and sasuke seems iify to me with the whole hagoromo chakra issue.


They've never lost Hagoromo's chakra. Only the seals on their hands for Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.

Asked Shade0180, he knows where it was.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> just the idea of these 2 clowns (toneri and momoshiki) being more powerful than a juubi's jinchuriki is blasphemy!



lol

Jūbi Jinchūriki wank is ridiculous.


----------



## Deer Lord (Sep 6, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> They've never lost Hagoromo's chakra. Only the seals on their hands for Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.


problem is that was never addressd in the manga or movies


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## Hachibi (Sep 6, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> problem is that was never addressd in the manga or movies



Feats show that they didn't lose it tho.

I mean without it:
-Sauce vs Nardo wouldn't do that much damage to VOTE
-Naruto wouldn't overpower a moon-cutting attack
-Sasuke wouldn't destroy the meteorite with a simple Chidori
-They wouldn't cause so much destruction from their taijutsu against Momoshiki
-And most of all, Naruto wouldn't have RSM (which he used against Sasuke and in the Boruto movie) and Sasuke wouldn't have his Rinnegan.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> problem is that was never addressd in the manga or movies


Given how they both retained their Six Path Sage Mode and Rinnegan respectfully shows they never lost the Six Paths Chakra Hagoromo gave them, nor his chakra.


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## Deer Lord (Sep 6, 2015)

Yes, VOTE2 they obviously still had it, I'm questioning if they lost it afterwards.

The rinnegan isn't linked with haguromo's chakra tho.
sasuke got it cause he was injected with hashi juice by kabuto.
Dunno about the boruto movie, but naruto hasn't used gudodamas and whatnot since VOTE2.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Yes, VOTE2 they obviously still had it, I'm questioning if they lost it afterwards.
> 
> The rinnegan isn't linked with haguromo's chakra tho.
> sasuke got it cause he was injected with hashi juice by kabuto.
> Dunno about the boruto movie, but naruto hasn't used gudodamas and whatnot since VOTE2.


Actually, the databook said that the Rinnegan Sasuke has was given to him by Hagoromo, hence why its unique. And Six Path Sage Mode is about the cross eyes with the lack of Sage Pigmentation, not Gudodama and flight, which are extra Deer Lord, Naruto can form them whenever he wants but choses not to. The Gaiden showed explicitly he has Six Path Sage Mode still:

As you can tell from the eyes.
Like its first use.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 6, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> The rinnegan isn't linked with haguromo's chakra tho.



It kinda is. I mean Amenojikara come from Hago according to DBIV



> Dunno about the boruto movie, but naruto hasn't used gudodamas and whatnot since VOTE2.



Madara showed us that the Gudodama are finite in number (that why he didn't simply create another and was stuck with only one) and Naruto used them all so.

As for Bijuu chakra, either he didn't need it (Toneri) or doing it would be stupid (Momoshiki).


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## Deer Lord (Sep 6, 2015)

Okay then.

Sounds like momoshiki has the advantage due to his hax
but he still wouldn't be able to kill madara off because immortality


edit: gaiden naruto actually looks more like BSM since he lacks 6 paths markings on his back.
but I don't know if that is the form he uses in the movie.


----------



## Clowe (Sep 6, 2015)

Thing is, there isn't enough info to call one way or the other. There is no line of dialogue or statement bt characters to suggest if they lost that power or not.

The Rinnegan is linked to Hago's chakra only for it's activation, but it remains afterwards, otherwise Nagato's and Obito's rinnegan would have reverted to Madara's EMS since they don't have Ashura + Indra chakra.

Likewise, like I said before Naruto hasn't been using SPSM Techniques since the end of the series, you say that SPSM is just the cross eyes without the SM pigmentation, but is there any statement by Naruto or anyone saying that (any character or hell even Kishi himself) or is that just the fans assumptions.

I'm not saying either is right or wrong, just that Kishi never decided to adress it and likely never will since he is apparently done with Naruto (We'll see).


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Thing is, there isn't enough info to call one way or the other. There is no line of dialogue or statement bt characters to suggest if they lost that power or not.
> 
> The Rinnegan is linked to Hago's chakra only for it's activation, but it remains afterwards, otherwise Nagato's and Obito's rinnegan would have reverted to Madara's EMS since they don't have Ashura + Indra chakra.


Hargoromo's chakra remains within the Rinnegan after activation.


> Likewise, like I said before Naruto hasn't been using SPSM Techniques since the end of the series, you say that SPSM is just the cross eyes without the SM pigmentation, but is there any statement by Naruto or anyone saying that (any character or hell even Kishi himself) or is that just the fans assumptions.


Databook 4 does the clarification here. Six Path Sage Mode's defining trait is the eyes, not Gudodama or flight, those are extras when he adds the cloak.


> I'm not saying either is right or wrong, just that Kishi never decided to adress it and likely never will since he is apparently done with Naruto (We'll see).


Databook 4 again, gave the clarification.



Deer Lord said:


> Okay then.
> 
> Sounds like momoshiki has the advantage due to his hax
> but he still wouldn't be able to kill madara off because immortality
> ...


If it was Biju Sage Mode, there'd be pigmentation around the eyes. He lacks them. Thus its Six Path Sage Mode.


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## Clowe (Sep 6, 2015)

Again thing is, Kishi does not give a flying fuck about Databooks, remember how all databooks prior to chapter 599 were retconned in favor of Kishi's plot? Anko being 24, Kakashi becoming chuunin at 6? 

Anyway you might be right, I'd rather not keep debating this topic since it's one of those things that go nowhere.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Again thing is, Kishi does not give a flying fuck about Databooks, remember how all databooks prior to chapter 599 were retconned in favor of Kishi's plot? Anko being 24, Kakashi becoming chuunin at 6?
> 
> Anyway you might be right, I'd rather not keep debating this topic since it's one of those things that go nowhere.


Kishimoto always works on the databooks, Clowe. And these are how the techniques are and how they work.


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## Kai (Sep 6, 2015)

Clowe said:


> you say that SPSM is just the cross eyes without the SM pigmentation, but is there any statement by Naruto or anyone saying that (any character or hell even Kishi himself) or is that just the fans assumptions.


Naruto is able to enter conventional Sage Mode in the Gaiden, which is characterized by pigmentation.


It is precisely Six Paths Sage Mode when the pigmentation disappears and cross-pupils appear.


----------



## Nikushimi (Sep 6, 2015)

...Who the fuck is Momoshiki? Or Kinshiki?


----------



## Tarot (Sep 7, 2015)

It's still not quite clear whether they kept the chakra Hagoromo gave them. Naruto his own Rikudou chakra from having the 9 biju sealed in him, while Sasuke has his from getting all of Hashi's remaining chakra and and his DNA from Kabuto. Even if they lost it, the difference could have just been made up as their chakra matured. It's just odd that Naruto's new mode has golden skin and the pattern on his back is the same as BM instead of having the nine tomoe pattern from the Kaguya arc. 


Clowe said:


> Anyway 2 eyes JJ Madara > Momoshiki > Juubito > Toneri.


Basically this.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

It is quite clear. Sasuke still retains his Rinnegan with Tomoe, Naruto still has Six Path Sage Mode, if they lost Hagoromo's chakra they'd have lost those abilities. And that list is wrong, Toneri has far better feats than Juubito and Juudara, so he's more powerful. Nothing Juubito does trumps the Moon Slice, and only Juudara's Chibaku Tensei (which takes far longer) comes close.


----------



## T-Bag (Sep 7, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It is quite clear. Sasuke still retains his Rinnegan with Tomoe, Naruto still has Six Path Sage Mode, if they lost Hagoromo's chakra they'd have lost those abilities. And that list is wrong, Toneri has far better feats than Juubito and Juudara, so he's more powerful. Nothing Juubito does trumps the Moon Slice, and only Juudara's Chibaku Tensei (which takes far longer) comes close.



Mugen tsukuyomi shits on anything toneri does. Madara is also _capable _of using rikudou- chibaku tensei. He's also *Immortal*, he also has the* rinnei-sharingan* which is originator of all kekkei-genkai. He has access to kaguya's spacetime ninjutsu thanks to that eye

Did I mention Limbo, who's clones have Equal power as the original madara? That's* rikudou sennin's*  Power *x4 *at the very least LOL

please tell me what does irrelevant  toneri have on Uchiha Madara? lol he's a complete joke


----------



## Raiken (Sep 7, 2015)

Death Arcana said:


> Basically this.


Yeah I agree


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## Zef (Sep 7, 2015)

Prime Sasuke solos both:ignoramus


OT: Momoshiki > JJ Madara
I'm basing this purely on the power inflation of Naruto & Sasuke.


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## tkpirate (Sep 7, 2015)

without PIS Momoshiki wins.he just sends Madara in a different dimension,just like he did with Naruto.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Yeah I agree


>Toneri has better feats
>Toneri is weaker than Juubito

Why do you agree?


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## T-Bag (Sep 7, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> without PIS Momoshiki wins.he just sends Madara in a different dimension,just like he did with Naruto.



And then madara comes right back using Yomotsu Hirasaka.

> Pointless.


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## Hachibi (Sep 7, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> >Toneri has better feats
> >Toneri is weaker than Juubito
> 
> Why do you agree?



Dude, he think Toneri is 1 Rinnegan SM Madara equal.


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## Platypus (Sep 7, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> And then madara comes right back using Yomotsu Hirasaka.
> 
> > Pointless.



Since when was Madara able to use Yomotsu Hirasaka?




*Yomotsu Hirasaka*
User: Kaguya Ootsutsuki


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## T-Bag (Sep 7, 2015)

Platypus said:


> Since when was Madara able to use Yomotsu Hirasaka?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



^ You forgot to include black zetsu as well, if he can do it madara sure as hell can too. 2nd of all, the 4th databook doesn't list many things, like Sasuke being a Perfect susano user.. or Madara being  a sage mode user. those are just 2 examples

Madara has rinnei-sharingan, it's automatically a given he can use that tech. But like I've said before, he never got to demonstrate his potential since he was taken out prematurely


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## Clowe (Sep 7, 2015)

Damage Obito took.

Regenerated, continued fighting.

Damage Madara took.

Regenerated, continued fighting.

Damage Toneri took.

Completely and utterly defeated.

Even if I believed that Toneri's DC surpassed all other god tiers, and he's just so amazing that no other in the same tier could replicate his Moon feat (lol yeah suuuuure, power scaling much?) Obito and Madara trump him in other categories.

Madara shits on Toneri, and Obito... well he doesnt shit, but he's still overall stronger.

Stop fighting for this cause, it's a lost cause.


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## Deer Lord (Sep 7, 2015)

Madara vs toneri isn't even a debate.

-Toneri wips out his golden sword
- Madara absorbs it with preta
- Toneri goes "wut" then gets raped by 4 invisible limbos


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## KeyofMiracles (Sep 7, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Damage Obito took.
> 
> Regenerated, continued fighting.
> 
> ...



You do realize that them having an ability that lets them regenerate doesn't make them stronger than someone who doesn't right?

-Sasuke.
-Naruto.
-Hagoromo w/o Juubi.
-Hamura.

None of those guys can take what Obito and Madara can take and live, yet they are all indisputably stronger than Obito, and the latter two are stronger than Madara. Naruto and Sasuke also surpass him as Adults.

And no, no God Tier has ever shown power above/comparable to Toneri's Moon Slicing Blade except Kaguya. Hamura has the Tenseigan thus can replicate that. Hagoromo has been a Moon Level person for a long time now. The closest ones are Naruto and Sasuke w/ the Final Twin RS and Indra's Arrow, but how close is unknown.

Madara would definitely punk Toneri, but Obito gets molested.

-Keeping up with Naruto=Faster than Obito, or at least fast enough to react to his attacks and tag Obito with his own attacks. (Even BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke could do the latter)

-Firepower? Quad Juubidama are nowhere near Moon Level. 

-Durability? Obito can survive greater attacks due to regen, but Toneri can take a bunch of Rasengan from Naruto and be unharmed while Obito gets a hole put in him from Rasengan.

Frankly, Toneri tanks all of Obito's attacks with the Gudo Dama and cuts him apart with his Moon Cutting Blade.


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## Clowe (Sep 7, 2015)

Toneri's moon feat is not even that impressive BTW considering two things.

1. Moon cutting <<<<< Moon Busting (Saiyan Saga Piccolo's moon busting is impressive, for example)
2. That moon IS HOLLOW, it has nowhere near the mass of a normal moon

So saying Toneri is Moon level+ is absolutely ridiculous. If anything he is continent level+, same as Obito, based on the previous facts, Do you still believe other god tiers couldn't replicate this feat when it falls within their power range?

My claim stands, Juubito > Toneri.


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## Tarot (Sep 7, 2015)

>The Juubi has no destructive feats comparable to Toneri 

Edit: It blasted an explosion that reached into the stratosphere. For all we know, the Juubi laser could perform the same moon-cutting feat, neither that nor the golden sword could pierce Kurama's cloak for that matter. Claiming Toneri >Madara or Obito seems more like a gateway to justify saying the Last Naruto can beat JJ Madara if I'm to look at the sigs of the people arguing for him.


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## Ersa (Sep 7, 2015)

The Last Naruto at his full power probably does beat JJ Madara though.

He made pretty substantial gains over 2 years.

Toneri is weaker then Madara though I agree.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Death Arcana said:


> >The Juubi has no destructive feats comparable to Toneri
> 
> Edit: It blasted an explosion that reached into the stratosphere. For all we know, the Juubi laser could perform the same moon-cutting feat, neither that nor the golden sword could pierce Kurama's cloak for that matter. Claiming Toneri >Madara or Obito seems more like a gateway to justify saying the Last Naruto can beat JJ Madara if I'm to look at the sigs of the people arguing for him.


That's still far smaller than CUTTING THE MOON IN HALF. Toneri was doing comparable attacks to that the entire fight with Naruto and before fighting with Naruto.



Clowe said:


> Toneri's moon feat is not even that impressive BTW considering two things.
> 
> 1. Moon cutting <<<<< Moon Busting (Saiyan Saga Piccolo's moon busting is impressive, for example)
> 2. That moon IS HOLLOW, it has nowhere near the mass of a normal moon
> ...


The moon isn't entirely hollow. Its not just cutting the moon in half that's more impressive than anything Juubito has ever done, its the fact the power of the attack _made both halves rotate independently and drift apart._ The focused power of Toneri's attack had enough firepower to bust the moon, hence why he could cut it in half with such ease.

Show Juubito doing ANYTHING close to that and you have a point. But you don't.



Clowe said:


> Damage Obito took.
> 
> Regenerated, continued fighting.
> 
> ...


Sure, ignore the attack that Toneri took was far stronger than what Obito and Madara ever did. Naruto's punch, considering it overpowered the Moon Slicing Laser, was more powerful than those attacks by leaps and bounds.

Do you guys really have something against Toneri?



Deer Lord said:


> Madara vs toneri isn't even a debate.
> 
> -Toneri wips out his golden sword
> - Madara absorbs it with preta
> - Toneri goes "wut" then gets raped by 4 invisible limbos


Madara's Preta never showed that amount of power absorption. Toneri has the Tenseigan, a Dojutsu on the same level as the Rinnegan, he can comfortably see the Limbo shadows.


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## Clowe (Sep 7, 2015)

It is hollow, considereing a big portion of the movie was Shikamaru's squad traveling inside of it checking out Ootsutsuki cities and ruins, there were forests inside it, there was an ocean, hell even a fake sun providing light inside it.

I don't see why Obito or Madara couldn't replicate what Toneri did to that hollow thing with their firepower.

Toneri is NOT Moon level.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Clowe said:


> It is hollow, considereing a big portion of the movie was Shikamaru's squad traveling inside of it checking out Ootsutsuki cities and ruins, there were forests inside it, there was an ocean, hell even a fake sun providing light inside it.
> 
> I don't see why Obito or Madara couldn't destroy that hollow thing with their firepower.
> 
> Toneri is NOT Moon level.


No, its not completely hollow. Just one portion of it, the very center. And Toneri is moon level, he has the 50 exaton feat. What don't you get about the attack being:

1. Focused.
2. Caused the rotation of the moon to go in opposite ways on either half.

Obito never displayed ANYTHING close to that feat. Madara? Only his Chibaku Tensei comes close. If Obito has a feat close to it, POST it. Instead of claiming he can do it without proof.


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## Clowe (Sep 7, 2015)

Moreover, we rank Kaguya as a planet buster based on what? on her Expansive Truthseeker right? we never saw how the thing destroyed a planet, she was defeated before it could, but we take Black Zetsu's statement for granted regarding it, correct? so why is the same thing not done with the Nunoboko, Obito said he could layed the world to waste with it, he was defeated before he could show it's power, but why can't it be used to replicate something like cutting a hollow moon in half if it can ''lay the world to waste''? Double standards here or what?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 7, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Toneri has the Tenseigan, a Dojutsu on the same level as the Rinnegan, he can comfortably see the Limbo shadows.



What a lie. It's almost comical. No canon sources back this up or states this. Rinnegan are the only eyes that can see the limbo clones manga fact.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Moreover, we rank Kaguya as a planet buster based on what? on her Expansive Truthseeker right? we never saw how the thing destroyed a planet, she was defeated before it could, but we take Black Zetsu's statement for granted regarding it, correct? so why is the same thing not done with the Nunoboko, Obito said he could layed the world to waste with it, he was defeated before he could show it's power, but why can't it be used to replicate something like cutting a hollow moon i nhalf if can ''lay the world to waste''? Double standards here or what?


Kaguya's Expansive Truthseeker Ball was created out of a mass of chakra far greater than Obito's Sword of Nunoboku which didn't live up to the hype. Its sheer size means it was a planet buster. 

Also: NARUTO AND SAUSKE OVERPOWERED THE SWORD OF NONOBOKU IN WEAKER FORMS. Thus...its no where near the same caliber of Toneri cutting the moon in half.

And for the last time, the entirety of the moon isn't hollow. Only the core.



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> What a lie. It's almost comical. No canon sources back this up or states this. Rinnegan are the only eyes that can see the limbo clones manga fact.


The Tenseigan was said to be a dojutsu equal to that of the Rinnegan. Given how it grants the user Truth Seeking Balls (this Six Path Chakra) and a chakra state comparable to cloaked Six Path Sage Mode, it lives up to the hype.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 7, 2015)

> The Tenseigan was said to be a dojutsu equal to that of the Rinnegan. Given how it grants the user Truth Seeking Balls (this Six Path Chakra) and a chakra state comparable to cloaked Six Path Sage Mode, it lives up to the hype.



1. Where was it said or stated to be on the level of the rinnegan.

2. Being on the same level of power as something else does not give you *all * of it's abilities and perks. Gengetsu and muu were equals, naruto and sasuke are equals too. Don't mean they can do *everything * the other can.


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## Clowe (Sep 7, 2015)

Don't bring me the BS that the susanoo sword was able to break it, because it was clearly stated that ''it's a sword of the soul, the users strong feelings dwell inside it'' and we know Obito's will was dwindling by that point.

A truthseeker is a truthseeker, a mass of chakra made out of all 5 nature transformation as well as Yin-Yang release, the only diffrence is the quantity.

Oh but Kaguya never destroyed a planet with it, right? She never cut a hollow moon in half, Her feats don't even come close to Toneri's so I guess she could be defeated by hm as well right? Black Zetsu's statement doesn't mean shit, he was just hyping his mommy up, just like he hyped his man crush Itachi before with the Yata mirror and Totsuka.

Get real SS.

Oh and it is hollow, the evidence is there in the movie, an ocean, cities, forests, a fake sun... all inside a hollow moon.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Don't bring me the BS that the susanoo sword was able to break it, because it was clearly stated that ''it's a sword of the soul, the users strong feelings dwell inside it'' and we know Obito's will was dwindling by that point.


Doesn't matter. That's its only feat. The Senjutsu, Kurama powered Susano'o sword overpowered the Sword of Nonoboku, thus it doesn't live up to the hype at all. Its incomparable to Toneri's Kinrin Tensei Baku from both feats and hype. It did nothing on its level. 


> A truthseeker is a truthseeker, a mass of chakra made out of all 5 nature transformation as well as Yin-Yang release, the only diffrence is the quantity.


Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball not only has more chakra, but the quality of its chakra is better than everyone else since its from Kaguya.


> Oh but Kaguya never destroyed a planet with it, right? She never cut a hollow moon in half, Her feats don't even come close to Toneri's so I guess she could be defeated by hm as well right? Black Zetsu's statement doesn't mean shit, he was just hyping his mommy up, just like he hyped his man crush Itachi before with the Yata mirror and Totsuka.
> 
> Get real SS.


Totsuka Sword has no feats to live up to its hype, same with the Yata Mirror. And look at the sheer size and power of that thing, its practically a MOON made of chakra. If that thing hit a planet, it'd DESTROY it. No ifs, ans, or buts about it.


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## Clowe (Sep 7, 2015)

Doesn't matter, according to your logic, that Expansive Truthseeker's only feat is growing a lot and disintegrate afterwards, it never destroyed any celestial body, so according to your logic it can't, just like the Nunoboko can't do shit either, it can't lay waste to the world or cut a hollow moon, it's only feat is breaking into tiny pieces.

Toneri > Kaguya due to feats, courtesy of SuperSaiyaMan12.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Doesn't matter, according to your logic, that Expansive Truthseeker's only feat is growing a lot and disintegrate afterwards, it never destroyed any celestial body, so according to your logic it can't, just like the Nunoboko can't do shit either, it can't lay waste to the world or cut a hollow moon, it's only feat is breaking into tiny pieces.
> 
> Toneri > Kaguya due to feats, courtesy of SuperSaiyaMan12.


No, you're not understanding my logic. The Sword of Nonoboku's only feat is it being shattered by Naruto and Sasuke in far weaker forms. It has nothing comparable. Kaguya? She's a far stronger character than Madara, Obito, AND Toneri. THe sheer size of her attack means it can destroy a planet if launched.

You're basically letting your bias blind you. Obito did nothing comparable to Toneri, yet you claim he's stronger without ANY proof.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> 1. Where was it said or stated to be on the level of the rinnegan.
> 
> 2. Being on the same level of power as something else does not give you *all * of it's abilities and perks. Gengetsu and muu were equals, naruto and sasuke are equals too. Don't mean they can do *everything * the other can.


1. The Retsu no Sho, the databook released with The Last.

2. Yet it has the feats similar to the Rinnegan. And Naruto and Sasuke aren't equals, Naruto is a bit stronger and has always been since the War.


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## Clowe (Sep 7, 2015)

I already gave you the proof, both Obito and Toneri are continent level+, Toneri is not Moon level+ due to just cutting the moon, not outright destroy it, and the moon being hollow, and it is hollow, don't deny it, didn't you see all the stuff that was inside that I already mentioned? the attack beaing condensed doesn't prove anything, The Juubi could focused it's blasts into lasers, so it stands to reason Obito and Madara can as well. Meanwhile Obito has better feats in all other departments, like durabilty and regen.

If you believe the hype behind the expansive truthseeker, believe the hype behind the Nunoboko, both are made of Truthseekers and their only diffrence is the quantity it takes to create them, both have no feats and rely solely on hype due to their users being defeated before showing what they could do. And what does the quality of chakra have to do with anything? Where was it stated that Kaguya's chakra was of a higher ''quality''? she just had more... a LOT more.

And I was joking with the Totsuka and Yata stuff btw, I was just making fun of it really.

And I'M bias? I can just as easily say the same thing about you... you like Toneri or something? did his Bishonen design appeal to you? Do you play a lot of FF and Tales games and those Bishie design are your thing? see what I did there?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Clowe said:


> I already gave you the proof, both Obito and Toneri are continent level+, Toneri is not Moon level+ due to just cutting the moon, not outright destroy it, and moon being hollow, the attack beaing condensed doesnt prove anything, The Juubi could focused it's blasts into lasers, so it stands to reason Obito and Madara can as well. Meanwhile Obito has better feats in all other departments, like durabilty and regen.
> 
> If you believe the hype behind the expansive truthseeker, believe the hype behind the Nunoboko, both are made of Truthseekers and their only diffrence is the quantity it takes to create them, both have no feats and rely solely onn hype due to their users being defeated before showing what it could do.
> 
> And I was joking with the Totsuka and Yata stuff btw, I was just making fun of it really.


Toneri's attack is far above Continent level+. Even the low level calcs put it at Multi-Continent, which is still higher than Obito. You are again ignoring the attack overpowered the GBE of the moon, making two halfs spin independently of each other. To do that you require power to destroy it. The Juubi Laser also shown its not in anywhere near the same ballpark. 

And for the last time, the moon isn't entirely hollow. 'SHIKAMARU'S TEAM SPENT DAYS EXPLORING IT!' Well you'd spend days exploring an entire city on foot too. Only one area is hollow, the core. That's it. 

Kaguya is far stronger than anyone in the Narutoverse. Her attack was as big as a moon. If it hits, it destroys a planet. That's not baseless hype, its pretty demonstrable. The Sword of Nunoboku hasn't done ANYTHING compared to Toneri's Kinrin Tensei Baku, thus is weaker.



> And I'M bias? I can just as easily say the same thing about you... you like Toneri or something? did his Bishonen design appeal to you? Do you play a lot of FF and Tales games and those Bishie design are your thing? see what I did there?


Yes, you are being biased. Hell you even list Obito Uchiha as your favorite character. I'm giving Toneri the credit he deserves, nothing in the manga except for Kaguya even compares to the destructive power he was wielding casually. The moon slicing feat is more impressive than anything a Juubi Jin has ever done due to the sheer size and scale of it. Yet to you, 'any god tier can replicate it' even if they lack the feats to back it up.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 7, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 1. The Retsu no Sho, the databook released with The Last.


I just checked and i ain't see that anywhere.



> 2. Yet it has the feats similar to the Rinnegan.


Not when it comes to seeing limbo's a feat only attributed to the rinnegan. There is literally nothing in canon that back up your claims. 

Ain't nothing else to really say or add on to this matter.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> I just checked and i ain't see that anywhere.


You checked the Tenseigan's article? Hell, it gives the ability to produce Six Paths Chakra to the user, why wouldn't it be equal to the Rinnegan when it does the same thing?



> Not when it comes to seeing limbo's a feat only attributed to the rinnegan. There is literally nothing in canon that back up your claims.
> 
> Ain't nothing else to really say or add on to this matter.


So can a Rinnegan user cut the moon in half? Oh and Naruto can't see the Limbo, but he can sense it. Why shouldn't a Tenseigan user, who has Six Paths Chakra, be able to do the same thing?


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## KamiKira (Sep 7, 2015)

JJ madara literary low diffs by feats, he might  even give him sakura's treatment. This match up isn't even funny, it's one sided annihilation...

Momo can't even see limbo as he couldn't even see the invisible ransegan ....


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## Tarot (Sep 7, 2015)

I actually just finished watching the movie and so now I have some actual points to make. 
Toneri managed to bust through the moon's crust from the inside with twice. The second time he used the silver reincarnation explosion-which tied with Naruto's Plantary Rasengan. Which means that a jutsu around the same power as PR could tear through the moon's crust. Also, Naruto had the other half of Kurama fighting Toneri's golem, so lel, it looks like Naruto with only 50% Kurama can overpower Toneri's Golden Sword. The sword is dangerous because of it's giant AoE that can cut through a large amount of mass, feat wise, it can be overpowered by something with more concentrated destructive force.  

For that matter, the moon is quite hollow. There is enough room for the appearance a sky to exist inside of it and when Toneri blasted a hole in the moon. The canal only looked about 40-50 feet, short enough that you could see the entirety of the earth from it.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 7, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You checked the Tenseigan's article?


Yeah i saw it on google and it ain't note nothing like that. Why don't you just post up the portion where you saw it and a translation. Not like it being equal to the rinnegan means it get all of it's hax and means(this is standard BD logic) so actually we can drop it.




> So can a Rinnegan user cut the moon in half?


A rinnegan user hasn't shown that ability no. Having big DC does not mean it can see limbo. It wasn't hinted to be able to do so in databooks etc and it has not feats of doing so.

EDIT: Toneri has not been shown/stated to have six paths chakra either SSM12. Not like we can just give him naruto's SPSM feats(two totally different modes).


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

KamiKira said:


> JJ madara literary low diffs by feats, he might  even give him sakura's treatment. This match up isn't even funny, it's one sided annihilation...
> 
> Momo can't even see limbo as he couldn't even see the invisible ransegan ....


JJ Madara faced a far weaker Naruto and Sasuke and got his ass kicked. So how does he 'low diffs' when his feats are inferior to Momoshiki's?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Death Arcana said:


> I actually just finished watching the movie and so now I have some actual points to make.
> Toneri managed to bust through the moon's crust from the inside with twice. The second time he used the silver reincarnation explosion-which tied with Naruto's Plantary Rasengan. Which means that a jutsu around the same power as PR could tear through the moon's crust. Also, Naruto had the other half of Kurama fighting Toneri's golem, so lel, it looks like Naruto with only 50% Kurama can overpower Toneri's Golden Sword. The sword is dangerous because of it's giant AoE that can cut through a large amount of mass, feat wise, it can be overpowered by something with more concentrated destructive force.


That was 100% Kurama, Naruto and him are linked. It wasn't 50% Naruto overpowering Toneri. 

And no. The gap between the interior and the exterior was greater than that. And again, its a small area compared to the sheer size of the moon.


> For that matter, the moon is quite hollow. There is enough room for the appearance a sky to exist inside of it and when Toneri blasted a hole in the moon. The canal only looked about 40-50 feet, short enough that you could see the entirety of the earth from it.


You're overestimating things. The size of the asteroids he made from both attacks show there were hundreds of kilometers of rock gorged out.



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> A rinnegan user hasn't shown that ability no. Having big DC does not mean it can see limbo. It wasn't hinted to be able to do so in databooks etc and it has not feats of doing so.
> 
> EDIT: Toneri has not been shown/stated to have six paths chakra either SSM12. Not like we can just give him naruto's SPSM feats(two totally different modes).


Truth-Seeking Balls have Six Path Chakra. Toneri can produce them. Thus he has Six Path Chakra.


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## KamiKira (Sep 7, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> JJ Madara faced a far weaker Naruto and Sasuke and got his ass kicked. So how does he 'low diffs' when his feats are inferior to Momoshiki's?



RSM naruto with ll the bijuu chakra>RSM naruto with only kyuubi chakra
Rinnegan sasuke with the sage's rikudo chakra> current sasuke

And by "kicked his ass"  you mean what? cutting JJ madara and doing zero damage to him, or getting trolled with limbo as they try to seal him?

the only real "ass kicking" madara had was from gai, plus that was only JJ 1 eyed madara they were fighting and like I said momo is unable to see limbo and thus he gets raped.

Momo has nothing that can effect madara, not even one single thing.


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## Clowe (Sep 7, 2015)

> Yes, you are being biased. Hell you even list Obito Uchiha as your favorite character. I'm giving Toneri the credit he deserves, nothing in the manga except for Kaguya even compares to the destructive power he was wielding casually. The moon slicing feat is more impressive than anything a Juubi Jin has ever done due to the sheer size and scale of it. Yet to you, 'any god tier can replicate it' even if they lack the feats to back it up.



So what if he's my favorite character? I can easily admit when I'm wrong and other characters are stronger.Any form of Minato trumps every form of Obito bar Juubi and maybe DMS, he's his worst matchup, likewise prime nagato trumps Obito as well, Madara has always being depicted as the superior too, Edo Itachi likely trumps Obito as well since all his weaknesses are removed when he's edo so he can spam his shit, not to mention Koto Crow, unless Obito has the Edo paths he loses that match up, see I'm I being biased?

And what about that thing about Kaguya's chakra being of higher quality? where did that come from, where was it ever stated? She just has more, a LOT more than ANY other character in the Verse.


*Spoiler*: __ 



[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]




This Bijuudama condensed and focused wouldn't be able to cut the moon as well? the first laser was from the Juubi's first form, a weaker form.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

KamiKira said:


> RSM naruto with ll the bijuu chakra>RSM naruto with only kyuubi chakra
> Rinnegan sasuke with the sage's rikudo chakra> current sasuke


Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto always retains the Biju Chakra. He never lost it. Rinnegan Sasuke also has the Six Path Chakra, he always retained it. Hell Adult Sasuke can _travel between dimensions_, something his teenage self explicitly didn't have the power to do. 


> And by "kicked his ass"  you mean what? cutting JJ madara and doing zero damage to him, or getting trolled with limbo as they try to seal him?


How is bisection 'zero damage' when half his body was cut in half? And he was almost sealed without being able to react, he had to use a substitution so that's not 'trolling'.


> the only real "ass kicking" madara had was from gai, plus that was only JJ 1 eyed madara they were fighting and like I said momo is unable to see limbo and thus he gets raped.


You were saying?

The Rinnegan can see Limbo. Momoshiki possesses the Rinnegan. Thus he can see Limbo. 'It didn't see the Vanishing Rasengan' is a bad argument since Sasuke's Rinnegan, which can also see the Limbo, was unable to see the vanishing Rasengan when it was thrown until it impacted.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 7, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Truth-Seeking Balls have Six Path Chakra. Toneri can produce them. Thus he has Six Path Chakra.



Yeah that's only naruto's who was given six path chakra by hagoromo.

Six path chakra is not a requirement to form TSB either only the 5 elements and yin-yang elements are. Again toneri cannot just sap off naruto(or any other characters) feats SSM12.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Clowe said:


> So what if he's my favorite character? I can easily admit when I'm wrong and other characters are stronger.Any form of Minato trumps every form of Obito bar Juubi and maybe DMS, he's his worst matchup, likewise prime nagato trumps Obito as well, Madara has always being depicted as the superior too, Edo Itachi likely trumps Obito as well since all his weaknesses are removed when he's edo, not to mention Koto Crow, unless Obito has the Edo paths he losed that match up, see I'm I being biased?


Except when it comes to this debate, you have been extremely biased, claiming feats which Obito doesn't have to put him on Toneri's level.


> And what about that thing about Kaguya's chakra being of higher quality? where did that come from, where was it ever stated? She just more, a LOT more than ANY other character in the Verse.


Kaguya was the first being to have chakra. Thus she has the purest form of chakra. Thus its quality is better. Kaguya is also the strongest person in the entire Narutoverse, her being a planet buster isn't out of the question.

This Bijuudama condensed and focused wouldn't be able to cut the moon as well? the first laser was from the Juubi's first form, a weaker form.[/QUOTE]
No, it wouldn't. That Bijudama, even focused, lacks the power. The Juubi Laser barely created a trench dozens of kilometers wide.



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Yeah that's only naruto's who was given six path chakra by hagoromo.
> 
> Six path chakra is not a requirement to form TSB either only the 5 elements and yin-yang elements are. Again toneri cannot just sap off naruto(or any other characters) feats SSM12.


Madara and Obito also had Truth-Seeking Balls and Six Path Chakra. It goes hand in hand. 

The very fact he can produce Truth-Seeking Balls means he possesses Six Paths Chakra. Thats the only way they are produced.



> Databook 4 - Gudōdama:
> Ninjutsu - Truth-Seeking Balls
> No rank, all ranges, offensive, defensive, supplementary
> Users: Naruto Uzumaki, Obito Uchiha, Madara Uchiha
> ...


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## Clowe (Sep 7, 2015)

Show me a scan of someone saying Kaguya's chakra is of a ''higher'' quality, let me save you the trouble, it doesn't exist, all it amounts to is Sasuke and Obito saying,''This Chakra?! What the hell is she?!'' how is that any indication of her chakra being of a higher quality? chakra is chakra dude, she just has more than anyone else.

And that Bijuudama focused and condensed wouldn't be able to cut the hollow moon as well? I'm sorry but did you saw the size of that explosion, it reaches the stratosphere, do you realize what you're saying?

I guess nothing can cut it, nor the Nunoboko which can lay the world to waste nor that condensed Bijuudama whose explosion reaches the confines of earth's atmosphere. Toneri is the only one who can cut that thing


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## KamiKira (Sep 7, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto always retains the Biju Chakra. He never lost it. Rinnegan Sasuke also has the Six Path Chakra, he always retained it. Hell Adult Sasuke can _travel between dimensions_, something his teenage self explicitly didn't have the power to do.


I never said he lost it, I was referring to the fact that RSM naruto from kaguya arc>the naruto that fought momo and same goes with sasuke. Naruto wasn't using all of his power hence why he was inferior. Also sauske lost his rikudo chakra, cause if you remember correctly, his lighting turns black once he's using it and thus he simply can't do it anymore because he lacks senjutsu. Sasuke himself wasn't going all out as he didn't use his coreless CT against momo


> How is bisection 'zero damage' when half his body was cut in half?


Madara regenerated and with no problem, the burden of proof is on you, as you're yet to tell me how madara was damaged in any way from that cut


> And he was almost sealed without being able to react, he had to use a substitution so that's not 'trolling'.


Still they got trolled with limbo and they failed and it did zero damaged to madara. If you have anything against this, then please go  ahead and show me how it did damage


> You were saying?


Ok, cool.
[2]


> The Rinnegan can see Limbo. Momoshiki possesses the Rinnegan. Thus he can see Limbo. 'It didn't see the Vanishing Rasengan' is a bad argument since *Sasuke's Rinnegan, which can also see the Limbo, was unable to see the vanishing Rasengan when it was thrown until it impacted.*


Rinnegan can see it indeed, but momo's rinnegan aren't his main source of vision as they're on his hands. Does momo have senjutsu to begin with?

I need a proof of the bold


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 7, 2015)

@ SSM12 That very entry you posted says nothing about absolutely needing six paths chakra to have TSB. Those who awaken six paths senjutsu have them yet toneri who doesn't have six paths senjutsu(he has TSM) has them. Hmmmm.

Let alone the fact that even if he did we just can't scale him to others feats especially when they are stronger/better than him. Toneri wasn't even a sensor on par with any form of naruto.


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## tkpirate (Sep 7, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> ^ You forgot to include black zetsu as well, if he can do it madara sure as hell can too. 2nd of all, the 4th databook doesn't list many things, like Sasuke being a Perfect susano user.. or Madara being  a sage mode user. those are just 2 examples
> 
> Madara has rinnei-sharingan, it's automatically a given he can use that tech. But like I've said before, he never got to demonstrate his potential since he was taken out prematurely



it's just assumption that Madara can use that tech.

show us a feat?and no Black Zetsu can't use it on his own either.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> @ SSM12 That very entry you posted says nothing about absolutely needing six paths chakra to have TSB. Those who awaken six paths senjutsu have them yet toneri who doesn't have six paths senjutsu(he has TSM) has them. Hmmmm.
> 
> Let alone the fact that even if he did we just can't scale him to others feats especially when they are stronger/better than him. Toneri wasn't even a sensor on par with any form of naruto.


...how is Toneri not a sensor on par with Naruto when he was sensing everything on Earth while blind? Truth-Seeking Balls are a gift from Six Paths Senjutsu, that is what the article says. Obito was able to form one post-extraction after getting his hand back on Six Path Chakra again, remember?


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## tkpirate (Sep 7, 2015)

isn't this Momoshiki vs Madara thread or did I come in a wrong thread



Clowe said:


> Doesn't matter, according to your logic, that Expansive Truthseeker's only feat is growing a lot and disintegrate afterwards, it never destroyed any celestial body, so according to your logic it can't, just like the Nunoboko can't do shit either, it can't lay waste to the world or cut a hollow moon, it's only feat is breaking into tiny pieces.
> 
> Toneri > Kaguya due to feats, courtesy of SuperSaiyaMan12.



that truthseeker doesn't have to destroy a celestial body to be at least planet level.both Black Zetsu and Kakashi said that entire Dimension will be destroyed.

also it's not possible for a moon to be entirely hollow,if it was entirely hollow it wouldn't have any gravity,and will collide with earth.there was only one city in that moon.don't be this retarded.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Show me a scan of someone saying Kaguya's chakra is of a ''higher'' quality, let me save you the trouble, it doesn't exist, all it amounts to is Sasuke and Obito saying,''This Chakra?! What the hell is she?!'' how is that any indication of her chakra being of a higher quality? chakra is chakra dude, she just has more than anyone else.


Dude, she's the FIRST PERSON TO EVER HAVE CHAKRA. How doesn't that equate to having the purest form, Clowe?


> that Bijuudama focused and condensed wouldn't be able to cut the hollow moon as well? I'm sorry but did you saw the size of that explosion, it reaches the stratosphere, do you realize what you're saying?


So what if it reaches into the stratosphere, is far smaller in damage than what Toneri's attack did. Concentrate it and it'd just scar a large area, true, but not cut in the moon in half.


> I guess nothing can cut it, nor the Nunoboko which can lay the world to waste nor that condensed Bijuudama whose explosion reaches the confines of earth's atmosphere. Toneri is the only one who can cut that thing


Those things don't have feats comparable. You know it. You just keep claiming they do.


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## Gibbs (Sep 7, 2015)

Who is Momoshiki and where can I watch his feats?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Gibbs said:


> Who is Momoshiki and where can I watch his feats?


Big bad of the Boruto Movie. Has a Rinnegan that absorbs any ninjutsu it touches, Byakugan, and can hold his own and overwhelm EOS Naruto and Sasuke.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 7, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...how is Toneri not a sensor on par with Naruto when he was sensing everything on Earth while blind?


He was acting competently while blind but it was never shown or stated he could sense everything on earth dude. Also naruto in his SPSM form(the form your trying to scale the weaker toneri too) could sense across fucking dimensions for god's sake.



> Truth-Seeking Balls are a gift from Six Paths Senjutsu, that is what the article says. Obito was able to form one post-extraction after getting his hand back on Six Path Chakra again, remember?


They are a gift from six paths senjutsu. But toneri who didn't have have six paths senjutsu(therefore no six paths chakra) had them. What does that tell you.

Obito did that feat because he had six paths chakra remaining in him even after being weakened from extraction(hell even after death) i know. Doesn't mean toneri can benefit from that never having six path senjutsu like obito.

No matter how you twist this toneri has never been explicitly shown doing or hinted at doing what you're trying to claim.


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## Clowe (Sep 7, 2015)

> Those things don't have feats comparable. You know it. You just keep claiming they do.



Neither does the Expansive Truthseeker and yet we all agree it's a planet buster 

Feats aren't everything, you should know that, Hamura, Indra, and Asura are featless characters for the most part, but we can safely place them above a certain power level because of who they are and what has been told to us.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> He was acting competently while blind but it was never shown or stated he could sense everything on earth dude. Also naruto in his SPSM form(the form your trying to scale the weaker toneri too) could sense across fucking dimensions for god's sake.


How is Toneri 'weaker' than Naruto in Six Path Sage Mode when he faced a far stronger Naruto?



> They are a gift from six paths senjutsu. But toneri who didn't have have six paths senjutsu(therefore no six paths chakra) had them. What does that tell you.
> 
> Obito did that feat because he had six paths chakra remaining in him even after being weakened from extraction(hell even after death) i know. Doesn't mean toneri can benefit from that never having six path senjutsu like obito.
> 
> No matter how you twist this toneri has never been explicitly shown doing or hinted at doing what you're trying to claim.


If they are a gift of Six Path Senjutsu, how can Toneri have gained them WITHOUT Six Path Chakra? That doesn't make sense.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Neither does the Expansive Truthseeker and yet we all agree it's a planet buster
> 
> Feats aren't everything, you should know that, Hamura, Indra, and Asura are featless characters for the most part, but we can safely place them above a certain power level because of who they are and what has been told to us.


The sheer size of the Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball confirms its a planet buster. Your analogy fails since you want Obito to be stronger than Toneri despite lacking the feats.


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## Clowe (Sep 7, 2015)

I already gave you the feats, I already told you why Toneri is not Moon level but instead the same level as Obito and lower than Madara, I already told you about the hype behind certain attacks, which to be taken into account, I already told you why Both Obito and Madara have better durability feats and far superior regem abilities the likes Toneri can't even dream of having

You are the one who wants Toneri to be stronger than Obito and Madara so that you can feel proud about that tier list in your sig which doesn't mean anything to anyone, except to you.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Clowe said:


> I already gave you the feats, I already told you why Toneri is not Moon level but instead the same level as Obito and lower than Madara, I already told you about the hype behind certain attacks, which to be taken into account, I already told you why Both Obito and Madara have better durability feats and far superior regem abilities the likes Toneri can't even dream of having


Except it is moon level. You ignore everything and scream 'DA MOON IS HOLLOW!' despite:


Only a small portion of it is. There's only a single city in the moon
Despite the vast amount of rock launched from the moon, much more than there would be from a hollow moon
Despite the moon having gravity
Despite Toneri's attack overpowering the GBE or rotation of the moon, making its two halves spin independently. You completely and utterly ignore this since to do that, it requires moon-busting firepower.

They have super regen, but their durability isn't as good as Toneri's. It took an attack the same level as his concentrated moon buster to knock him out while Guy turned Madara into a ragdoll with attacks with far less power, and Obito was greatly damaged by a plain old Sage Mode Rasengan.

The sword of Nunoboku has no feats to equal its hype, thus its meaningless. And you're vastly overestimating the power of the Bijudama that were used, they are literally blips on the moon's crust.


> You are the one who wants Toneri to be stronger than Obito and Madara so that you can feel proud about that tier list in your sig which doesn't mean anything to anyone, except to you.


You're degrading superior feats to a character you don't like to claim a superiority of a character you do like.


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## T-Bag (Sep 8, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> it's just assumption that Madara can use that tech.
> 
> show us a feat?and no Black Zetsu can't use it on his own either.



It's common sense, it's *Rinnei-sharingan*/nuff said lol. It's like saying it's an assumption to state Rinnegan sasuke can use shinrai tensei because he hasn't shown it . that's pretty much how u sound. Now.. Madara might not have the chakra QUANTITY like kaguya to _spam _super -chakra- taxing -jutsus like amenomekia per say. But jikuukan ninjutsu like Yomotsu Hirasaka that hardly use much chakra? EZ



Madara possess the ultimate doujutsu bro. There's nothing this man can't do, that's why he was so damn confident after he got his other rinnegan, and it's the reason Obito was terrified of madara getting his rinnegan back, because of the result of the 3rd eye. Remember obito read the tablet as well so he knows what madara was after.

That's why when i see stupid comments like momoshiki/toneri > JJ Madara , i just wana shoot myself.


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## Clowe (Sep 8, 2015)

Here is the Expansive truthseeker.



Here is the Juubi's Bijuu dama's blast radius.



Now, I tought that the Expansive Truthseeker, grew and grew until it consumed everything, but according to you, at that size it was already a planet buster, yes? However you can distinguish the earth's circumference much easier in the explosion panel than in the Truthseeker panel, which means at that point, the explosion is bigger right? The truthseeker didn't grew much more than that due to Kaguya being sealed soon after.

You can see it disintegrating here, and it's not much bigger despite continuosly growing, probably because much time hasn't passed yet for it to grow much more.



Now, I don't know if the other dimension's ''earth'', is bigger or smaller than the normal Naruto earth, it's impossible to calculate that, but for the sake of argument, let's say it's just as big.

You said that at that size, it was already a planet buster and yet, the Bijuu dama's explosion, which is clearly bigger, with it's power focused and condensed can't cut the moon in half despite being bigger than the aforementioned planet buster? Look at it's size again and keep looking, it's huge, it reaches towards the atmosphere of the earth.

 is the calculation that explains why Toneri's feat is not Moon level+ and is AT MOST Multi continent level+, remember that Moon splitting <<< Moon busting, however that is assuming that it's a full size moon like ours  (we don't know how big Naruto world's moon is, but since the planet itself seems smaller than ours... ) and not at least PARTIALLY hollow (happy now?) so assuming that, Toneri's feat goes between at least Country+ to Multi continent level+ at most.

This is going to be my last reply for today cuz It's late over here and I need to wake up early tomorrow, however I can continue later, I'm enjoying this debate really, despite your stubbornness.


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## Deer Lord (Sep 8, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara's Preta never showed that amount of power absorption. Toneri has the Tenseigan, a Dojutsu on the same level as the Rinnegan, he can comfortably see the Limbo shadows.


Madara has more chakra then anyone bar kaguya nor has preta ever been shown to have a limit not based on the user's ability to handle that much chakra (which madara easily can), absorbing the golden sword is childs play.

and we have no indication or even a hint alluding to toneri being able to see or sense the limbo, so claming he can is fanfic.


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## KeyofMiracles (Sep 8, 2015)

Clowe said:


> Toneri's moon feat is not even that impressive BTW considering two things.
> 
> 1. Moon cutting <<<<< Moon Busting (Saiyan Saga Piccolo's moon busting is impressive, for example)
> 2. That moon IS HOLLOW, it has nowhere near the mass of a normal moon
> ...



1. Irrelevant because I never stated otherwise.
2. The Moon's very center is hollow. The rest is the same as the normal moon. 

Toneri is Moon Level. Not Moon Level+. Continent level is a hilariously ridiculous attempt at downplaying Toneri's abilities, mainly because a Moon with a  fraction of it hollowed out will always be far larger than the combined mass and size of a continent's rocks.  

What's worse is that you say "Continent Level+" without actually having any real basis on why it's Continent Level+. Fact of the matter is, Toneri obliterates Juubito. He has nothing above him. Not speed. Not durability. Not abilities. And not firepower.


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## tkpirate (Sep 8, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> It's common sense, it's *Rinnei-sharingan*/nuff said lol. It's like saying it's an assumption to state Rinnegan sasuke can use shinrai tensei because he hasn't shown it . that's pretty much how u sound. Now.. Madara might not have the chakra QUANTITY like kaguya to _spam _super -chakra- taxing -jutsus like amenomekia per say. But jikuukan ninjutsu like Yomotsu Hirasaka that hardly use much chakra? EZ
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the only reason we could say that Sasuke can use ST because we know that Sasuke can use deva path abilities.otherwise we had no reason to say Sasuke could use ST.

all you're making is basically a argument from belief without any proper proof.


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## T-Bag (Sep 8, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> the only reason we could say that Sasuke can use ST because we know that Sasuke can use deva path abilities.otherwise we had no reason to say Sasuke could use ST.
> 
> all you're making is basically a argument from belief without any proper proof.



lol you sound silly man. enough, i cant take this anymore 

*rinnei-sharingan is the only proof i need haha*, it is the origin of all kekkei genkai. Only *2* characters in the entire manga series have awakened it, except one of them doesn't have as MUCH chakra as the other, he would have too if that black zetsu let him.


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## tkpirate (Sep 8, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> lol you sound silly man. enough, i cant take this anymore
> 
> *rinnei-sharingan is the only proof i need haha*, it is the origin of all kekkei genkai. Only *2* characters in the entire manga series have awakened it, except one of them doesn't have as MUCH chakra as the other, he would have too if that black zetsu let him.



Sasuke has Rinnegan,can he use Limbo?
Madara having same type of eyes as Kaguya doesn't mean he can use her abilities.


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## T-Bag (Sep 8, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> Sasuke has Rinnegan,can he use Limbo?
> Madara having same type of eyes as Kaguya doesn't mean he can use her abilities.



Except Madara's rinnei sharingan and kaguya's are one in the same lol. Madara was able to awaken it because kaguya's chakra activated once he got near the moon. They share the same body/chakra, that's how he was able to cast Mugen tsukuyomi, and why black zetsu managed to summon her. Madara can use ALL of kaguya's techniques, except his chakra is limited since he didn't get a chance to absorb everyone's chakra in the planet.

In other words Rinnei-sharingan Madara is KAGUYA.. minus the ridiculous amount of chakra


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## Raiken (Sep 9, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> Except Madara's rinnei sharingan and kaguya's are one in the same lol. Madara was able to awaken it because kaguya's chakra activated once he got near the moon. They share the same body/chakra, that's how he was able to cast Mugen tsukuyomi, and why black zetsu managed to summon her. Madara can use ALL of kaguya's techniques, except his chakra is limited since he didn't get a chance to absorb everyone's chakra in the planet.
> 
> In other words Rinnei-sharingan Madara is KAGUYA.. minus the ridiculous amount of chakra


Madara was even like, "you have no chance against me now".
At least he gave that vibe.

Also while Kaguya has more powerful Chakra, Madara has more battle skill/Intelligence and Rinnegan Techniques.
That's why I often think, overall: Rinne Sharingan/Dual Rinnegan Shinju-JJ Madara = Kaguya.
Kaguya has more power, but Madara has more intelligence and more abilities.


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## Stan Lee (Sep 9, 2015)

Momoshiki actually did more damage to Sasuke than Madara did and it was a more powerful version.

Was Yomotsu Hirasaka ever stated to be a Rinni-Sharingan tech? If not, then it's like saying Madara can use his hair as a weapon and killing ash-bone like Kaguya.


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## tkpirate (Sep 9, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> Except Madara's rinnei sharingan and kaguya's are one in the same lol. Madara was able to awaken it because kaguya's chakra activated once he got near the moon. They share the same body/chakra, that's how he was able to cast Mugen tsukuyomi, and why black zetsu managed to summon her. Madara can use ALL of kaguya's techniques, except his chakra is limited since he didn't get a chance to absorb everyone's chakra in the planet.
> 
> In other words Rinnei-sharingan Madara is KAGUYA.. minus the ridiculous amount of chakra



OK Nagato had Madara's eyes can he use Limbo?

any Rinnesharingan user can cast mugen Tsukuyomi.it's like saying because Nagato can use CT he can use Limbo too,when he never shown to use it.


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## Clowe (Sep 9, 2015)

I'm back with free time to continue my argument, now that I'm done explaining why Toneri is not Moon level, even giving a link to calculations that explain that much, it's time to go to the next phase and talk about the person who defeated him, Naruto himself.

You see, some of you are under the grave delusion that BSM Naruto from The Last is stronger than EoS Naruto, what made you believe this is beyond my comprehension, nevertheless I will try my best to help get rid of this misconception, however, i can only show you the exit, it falls to you to walk through.

Yes, in fact, BSM Naruto from The Last comes nowhere as close as EoS Naruto, now whether or not you believe Naruto lost the Yang power and Six Paths chakra is irrelevant, it doesn't matter one way or the other, why you ask?, because Naruto DOESN'T NEED that kind of power to defeat Toneri. Indeed, Naruto only used BSM because he needed no more to do so, was it a stronger BSM than the one War Naruto used? Absolutely, if only because of the fact that he now has 50% more Kurama chakra, I'm not going to say that after two years Naruto honed his abilities, because there is no evidence to support that, logic would dictate that to be the case, but those were two years of peace were Naruto didn't have any need to fight or train, and we know what happened to Naruto after +10 years of peace, AKA Rusty Hokage Naruto.



BSM Naruto from The Last didn't use any of the abilities that EoS Naruto can, no Bijuu Rasenshurikens (each if which can destroy a meteor), no Bijuu Techniques (Yoton: FRS, Magnet Style, Gobi Vapor increased strength, or the Super Bijuu Rasenshuriken each using chakra from the nine Bijuu), he didn't used Gudoudama, no flight, no nothing that characterizes SPSM Naruto. SO the fact is Naruto used good ol' BSM during his fight with Toneri.
And before some of you use the Cross eye pattern and pigmentation argument...


Here is The Last BSM naruto's official artwork, you can clearly see the SM pigmentation around his eyes, so he is not using his SPSM according to your statements.

Now that we got that out of the way, this punch using the Six paths chakra was on a similar level  than the one that defeated Toneri, simply due to the fact that Naruto was using Six paths chakra to enhance it, not just his Bijuu chakra.


Don't deny it, we know how much Six Paths chakra can enhance your abilities, and if you don't... well, just ask Kakashi.




So, now I go for my second point, Naruto's victory against Toneri was a Low to Mid difficulty victory at most, how can I say this? easy, Naruto wasn't injured at all, no heavy nor light injuries, nothing, he wasn't tired in the slightest, hell he wasn't even panting at the end of that fight, so low to mid diff victory at most that is. 

So wait? does that mean a weaker form of Naruto than the SPSM form that he used to battle Madara and Kaguya defeated Toneri? A version that is not as strong, not as fast, not as powerful? That's it folks, a weaker form of Naruto defeated Toneri. what does this tell us, well easy, I'm sure you all have figured out by now, Toneri doesn't hold a candle to Madara in power and is more around Juubito in power, hence why a lot pages ago I claimed Juudara > Juubito > Toneri.

Thats it, I hope this post has helped clarify your misconceptions and helped you see the light. And if it didn't, well, I'm sorry my efforts weren't enough to save your souls.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 9, 2015)

Ignoring your useless post just now, I'll just talk about the elephant in the room and ask why you think Obito is stronger than Toneri

Like, that's fucking hilarious.


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## T-Bag (Sep 9, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> OK Nagato had Madara's eyes can he use Limbo?
> 
> any Rinnesharingan user can cast mugen Tsukuyomi.it's like saying because Nagato can use CT he can use Limbo too,when he never shown to use it.



Nagato is not the original owner, he's an uzumaki. He's not even a true rikudou.

your comparison is invalid. You're reaching now.

A more valid comparison would be Kakashi with obito's chakra. Kakashi was able to use Obito's ghost ability and perfect susano.



Cryorex said:


> Madara was even like, "you have no chance against me now".
> At least he gave that vibe.
> 
> Also while Kaguya has more powerful Chakra, Madara has more battle skill/Intelligence and Rinnegan Techniques.
> ...



in terms of opponent difficulty, definitely. Madara is just something else. He's way too skilled/knowledge'd  and has such a large variety of jutsu. He's like Father from FMA.

sucks we didn't get him display his true power. That was really anti-climatic.


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## tkpirate (Sep 9, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> Nagato is not the original owner, he's an uzumaki. He's not even a true rikudou.
> 
> your comparison is invalid. You're reaching now.
> 
> A more valid comparison would be Kakashi with obito's chakra. Kakashi was able to use Obito's ghost ability and perfect susano.



Nagato had same Madara eyes.can't use Limbo like Madara.the same way Madara wouldn't be able to use Kaguya's abilities because he wouldn't know how to use them even if he has same eye as her.it has nothing to do with Nagato not being the original owner it didn't stop him from using other Rinne abilities.
your entire argument is based on Assumptions.
and don't talk about that BS plot susano,and chakra ghost,that made no sense and was pulled from Kishi's ass.


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## T-Bag (Sep 10, 2015)

Im not entertaining this stupidity with you no more lol. If you haven't learned yet you nvr will


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## tkpirate (Sep 10, 2015)

a argument from belief was Stupid from the start.


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## SakuraZ (Sep 13, 2015)

I think madara is number one


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