# RS Sanji vs Zoro



## TheWiggian (Feb 4, 2020)

Inspired by a conversation with some buddies.

How would RS Sanji fare against Zoro with their current feats?
Both are IC. Location is Dressrosa.

S1: Sanji (only RS restricted) vs Zoro (only Enma restricted)? 

S2: RS Sanji (unrestricted) vs Zoro (only Enma restricted)?

S3: RS Sanji (unrestricted) vs Zoro (unrestricted)?


For me it would be:

S1: Zoro high diff
S2: RS Sanji mid diff
S3: RS Sanji high diff, possibly higher if he gets hit hard but still wins

Keep in mind, this is a current manga feats only thread, no portrayal or hype taken into account.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Moldrew (Feb 4, 2020)

I’m surprised by how much I agree with your estimations on this one. 
There’s a suspicious lack of Zoro wank here


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## Etherborn (Feb 4, 2020)

If it's only current feats then Sanji has a significant advantage. His Wano feats are more favorable, so:

S1: Zoro high difficulty
S2: Sanji mid-high difficulty
S3: Sanji high difficulty

I don't think this is actually how it would go though, I still get the feeling that Zoro has more to show and that his detrimental endurance feat in Wano was just an outlier.


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## Gledania (Feb 5, 2020)

S1 : Zoro mid to high diff
S2 : Sanji high diff
S3 : No idea.

Zoro forever advantage is how much his attacks are lethal. After every wound sanji will constantly bleed. I guess Sanji might take it because of his huge advantage in speed , thought not sure about it.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Feb 5, 2020)

That carbide-like fire limb battling w/ The Triple Superstittious Swords would be a hellacious spectacle to behold.


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## Corax (Feb 5, 2020)

Depends on Zoro's CoO. We have to waite Wano feats. I doubt that wihouth good CoO Zoro can detect Sanji and respond in time. But on the other hand we don't know how strong are serious named RS attacks and are they enough to beat Zoro.


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## Beast (Feb 9, 2020)

Zoro high 
Sanji high 
Sanji extreme 


Zoro needs both Odens swords to match OsobaMask- kun


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## Steven (Feb 9, 2020)

"AsHuRa OnEsHoTs"



MasterBeast said:


> Zoro high
> Sanji high
> Sanji extreme
> 
> ...


This


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## Gianfi (Feb 9, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Zoro high
> Sanji high
> Sanji extreme
> 
> ...


This, pretty much


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## ho11ow (Feb 10, 2020)

"current manga feats only "
What feats does Sanji have to put him above Zoro?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Gledania (Feb 10, 2020)

ho11ow said:


> "current manga feats only "
> What feats does Sanji have to put him above Zoro?



CoO mostly


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## Yuji (Feb 10, 2020)

Gledania said:


> CoO mostly



If his CoO was so good he wouldn't have been getting cleaned out by Judge or more recently he wouldn't have been tail slapped by Zoan form Drake.

Both Zoro and Sanji have shown they are about equal in observation haki which is to say they both only have basic tier observation haki.


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## Etherborn (Feb 10, 2020)

Yuji said:


> If his CoO was so good he wouldn't have been getting cleaned out by Judge or more recently he wouldn't have been tail slapped by Zoan form Drake.
> 
> Both Zoro and Sanji have shown they are about equal in observation haki which is to say they both only have basic tier observation haki.



Neither of them have learned Future Sight, but that doesn't really equate them in that area. Sanji dodged a bullet point blank from Katakuri, whose Observation Haki was hyped through the roof. Meanwhile, Zoro was unable to react to Killer while he was focused on another opponent, and he doesn't really have any noteworthy Observation feats like Sanji does. 

Oda stated long ago that Zoro's specialty is Armament Haki whereas Sanji's is Observation, so it shouldn't be too surprising that Sanji's Observation Haki is superior.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Magentabeard (Feb 10, 2020)

Lots of people on crack here. 
No Enma Zoro - mid diffs Sanji and high diffs RS Sanji
Enma Zoro - Low diffs Sanji and mid diffs RS Sanji

Reactions: Like 5


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## Yuji (Feb 11, 2020)

Etherborn said:


> Neither of them have learned Future Sight, but that doesn't really equate them in that area. Sanji dodged a bullet point blank from Katakuri, whose Observation Haki was hyped through the roof. Meanwhile, Zoro was unable to react to Killer while he was focused on another opponent, and he doesn't really have any noteworthy Observation feats like Sanji does.
> 
> Oda stated long ago that Zoro's specialty is Armament Haki whereas Sanji's is Observation, so it shouldn't be too surprising that Sanji's Observation Haki is superior.



Sanji being an observation specialist holds about as much weight as Sakura being a genjutsu specialist at the beginning of Naruto.

Unless your belief is that Sanji has better or equal observation haki to katakuri I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Katakuri used future sight to see that Sanji would dodge the priests attack, not his own. Not to mention it was the most casual of casual attacks. *You're referring to it as though Katakuri pitted his observation haki against Sanji's and lost *which is ridiculous. Again, where was this incredible observation haki when he was getting the beat down from Judge? When he got tail slapped from Drake?

How does getting 2v1'd mean you have weaker observation? In the recent chapter alone we had Oden getting one shot after being distracted during the fight, does that mean that Oden has weak observation haki too? Luffy got hit by Flampe 2v1. It's a 2v1.

Also Zoro went back just a few chapters later and defended a 2v1 from Kawamatsu of all people


People like to forget this one though

Reactions: Like 2


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## Moldrew (Feb 11, 2020)

Yuji said:


> Sanji being an observation specialist holds about as much weight as Sakura being a genjutsu specialist at the beginning of Naruto.
> 
> Unless your belief is that Sanji has better or equal observation haki to katakuri I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Katakuri used future sight to see that Sanji would dodge the priests attack, not his own. Not to mention it was the most casual of casual attacks. *You're referring to it as though Katakuri pitted his observation haki against Sanji's and lost *which is ridiculous. Again, where was this incredible observation haki when he was getting the beat down from Judge? When he got tail slapped from Drake?
> 
> ...


Why do you keep bringing up the Judge fight? Observation Haki doesn’t work as well when someone isn’t focused or loses composure, which is exactly what Sanji was through that entire encounter.
Not to mention that does absolutely nothing to elevate Zoro in comparison to Sanji.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yuji (Feb 11, 2020)

Moldrew said:


> Why do you keep bringing up the Judge fight? Observation Haki doesn’t work as well when someone isn’t focused or loses composure, which is exactly what Sanji was through that entire encounter.
> Not to mention that does absolutely nothing to elevate Zoro in comparison to Sanji.



Sanji didn't lose his composure, being angry =/= losing your composure, Sanji's entire diable jamble fighting style is based upon his emotions. Katakuri lost his composure because his entire charade was exposed by Luffy and went on a murderous rampage, that is not comparable to being Sanji being angry at Judge and fighting normally as he otherwise would have done. There is no evidence to suggest that his observation haki just suddenly stopped working.

He also got slapped down by Zoan form Drake, where was his god tier observation haki then? Is Zoan form Drake faster than Zoro? Slapped back by Daifuku, couldn't dodge a single Doflamingo attack, Yuen snuffed him out, Vergo dominated him, he struggled to find Kinemon's torso in the lake. Where is the situation where Sanji's observation has been elevated above Zoro in any significant way? The Katakuri myth has been debunked multiple times now.

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## Moldrew (Feb 11, 2020)

Yuji said:


> Sanji didn't lose his composure, being angry =/= losing your composure, Sanji's entire diable jamble fighting style is based upon his emotions. Katakuri lost his composure because his entire charade was exposed by Luffy and went on a murderous rampage, that is not comparable to being Sanji being angry at Judge and fighting normally as he otherwise would have done. There is no evidence to suggest that his observation haki just suddenly stopped working.
> 
> He also got slapped down by Zoan form Drake, where was his god tier observation haki then? Is Zoan form Drake faster than Zoro? Slapped back by Daifuku, couldn't dodge a single Doflamingo attack, Yuen snuffed him out, Vergo dominated him, he struggled to find Kinemon's torso in the lake. Where is the situation where Sanji's observation has been elevated above Zoro in any significant way? The Katakuri myth has been debunked multiple times now.


Sanji was literally having sad flashbacks during the fight and reaffirming his hatred of this man whose life he would later go out of his way to save after years of childhood trauma. Sanji was in no way focused on accomplishing anything. If you can’t comprehend this and understand how Sanji was under just as much if not more stress than Katakuri, then I’m assuming you just skipped the entirety of WCI from that fight onwards.

Then Judge sacrificed soldiers mid-fight just to gain an edge on Sanji, something Sanji clearly didn’t anticipate, yet Sanji still blocked the attack.

Observation Haki has never worked 100% of a fight at all moments, especially in opponents of a similar level. Judge literally specializes in high speed aerial combat and took a named attack from a Yonko. Drake is a fucking Supernova. Why would Sanji be dodging circles around them? When has a fight in One Piece ever worked like that?

Not to mention Sanji dodged Drake’s attack with even more distraction right after when Hiyori appeared and located her presence.

You can’t just take the low end and ignore the high end and Sanji simply has more high end observation haki feats than Zoro.


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## Yuji (Feb 11, 2020)

Moldrew said:


> Sanji was under just as much if not more stress than Katakuri




Yeah Sanji looks so stressed calmly analysing Judge's fighting style and telling him it's his forte, that's definitely comparable to getting the last 40 years of your life exposed.

Do you want to see what happens next?


God tier observation haki



Moldrew said:


> Drake is a fucking Supernova. Why would Sanji be dodging circles around them?



Zoro is also a supernova, and this is *Zoan form drake*, his slowest and presumably weakest form. If Sanji gets tagged by this how could his observation possibly help him against Zoro?



Moldrew said:


> You can’t just take the low end and ignore the high end



I'm not, but the only possible high end feat that could boost Sanji's observation above Zoro's is dodging a casual jellybean from Katakuri and this has already been debunked as something special, since it was not a case of Katakuri pitting his observation against Sanji's.


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## Beast (Feb 11, 2020)

People really trying to argue with Yuji? 

He has been long enough, everyone should know how biased he is by now tbh. 

Zoro literally has no good KH haki feats at all, but Yuji will still argue that Sanji is not any better.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ImpalerDragon (Feb 17, 2020)

S1: Sanji win highish diffucult
S2: Sanji win medium maybe less difficult
S3: Sanji win destroys zoro


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## Habakiri (Feb 17, 2020)

R1: Zoro High-Diffs
R2: Zoro Extreme-Diffs
R3: Zoro High-Diffs


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## ice demon slayer (Feb 17, 2020)

Lmao
Zoro wins all round high diff
Sanji has no feats putting him above Zoro

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## ImpalerDragon (Feb 17, 2020)

ice demon slayer said:


> Lmao
> Zoro wins all round high diff
> Sanji has no feats putting him above Zoro



What does zoro have to be above sanji? Failing to defeate pica on his own?


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## Beast (Feb 17, 2020)

ice demon slayer said:


> Lmao
> Zoro wins all round high diff
> Sanji has no feats putting him above Zoro


Zoros only advantage is the lethality of his attacks and AoE right now.


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## Ren. (Mar 16, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Inspired by a conversation with some buddies.
> 
> How would RS Sanji fare against Zoro with their current feats?
> Both are IC. Location is Dressrosa.
> ...


Hmmm, I agree, my bad for what I said in the thread regarding Sanji!


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 16, 2020)

ho11ow said:


> "current manga feats only "
> What feats does Sanji have to put him above Zoro?


How weak do you think Sanji is? With his Raid Suit, he has invisibility, an armor defense, and an attack and movement speed boost on top of all of his base abilities. Do you think Soba Mask is slower and less durable than Zoro? Do you think that Zoro has massively better CoO than Sanji to be able to fight an invisible Sanji without trouble?


Scenario 1: Zoro, high difficulty
Scenario 2: Sanji, mid Difficulty
Scenario 3: Zoro, extreme difficulty


I assume that Enma has given Zoro a buff in CoA, his ability to defend against and deflect heavier attacks (just like in Thriller Bark when he got a sword upgrade), on top of better attack power.


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## Nox (Mar 16, 2020)

ho11ow said:


> "current manga feats only "
> What feats does Sanji have to put him above Zoro?



His performance against the Charlotte Brothers triplets. Katakuri saw a future Sanji dodged and tried preemptively attacking and Sanji STILL dodged. Through combination of speed and strength yammed and stop Oven -- even Valkyrie failed to accomplish the feat. After their initial encounter he was fending off Daifuku whilst holding conversations. Speaking of attack scale -- Sanji has doused enlarged Wadatsumi in fire. The biggest drawback to Sanji is his durability. However, he confronted a full BH and now possess a Suit which soaks a considerable amount of damage. _In addition to invisibility -- a power which from its DF variant was difficult for DD to counter -- at least if we believe he didn't let Absalom save Moriah_.


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## Lyren (Mar 17, 2020)

Zorro slices the shit out of him high diff at worst


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 17, 2020)

FP rage Mihawkigan Zoro mid-diffs


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## Dunno (Mar 17, 2020)

S1: Sanji (only RS restricted) vs Zoro (only Enma restricted) [Zoro mid difficulty]
S2: RS Sanji (unrestricted) vs Zoro (only Enma restricted) [Zoro high difficulty]
S3: RS Sanji (unrestricted) vs Zoro (unrestricted) Zoro [Zoro high difficulty]


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## Kishido (Mar 17, 2020)

S1 Zoro high
S2 Sanji extreme
S3 Zoro high


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## Mob (Mar 18, 2020)

S1: Sanji (only RS restricted) vs Zoro (only Enma restricted)         [Zoro extreme difficulty]
S2: RS Sanji (unrestricted) vs Zoro (only Enma restricted)             [Sanji high difficulty]
S3: RS Sanji (unrestricted) vs Zoro (unrestricted) Zoro                   [Zoro extreme difficulty]


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## Kroczilla (Mar 18, 2020)

I think its best we wait till after wano for a more definitive answer.


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## Conxc (Mar 18, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> I think its best we wait till after wano for a more definitive answer.


Character development?! Good on you Kroc.

@ People that still think Enma is a power up: It’s not.


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## Beast (Mar 18, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Character development?! Good on you Kroc.
> 
> @ People that still think Enma is a power up: It’s not.


It definitely, it’s a bit ridiculous to think that I wouldn’t. 

The SHs are getting stronger per arc just because the plot needs them to and you think a specialised sword isn’t a power up to zoro?


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## Conxc (Mar 18, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> It definitely, it’s a bit ridiculous to think that I wouldn’t.
> 
> The SHs are getting stronger per arc just because the plot needs them to and you think a specialised sword isn’t a power up to zoro?


How many times has Zoro gotten stronger arc to arc without getting a new sword? A higher graded sword is a better quality sword. It’s the difference between the swords Zoro had when he first dueled Mihawk and the Wado for example. They’re more durable and better made. Enma literally places a handicap on it’s user. Zoro’s growth this arc will be the Haki control that he will gain by *conquering *the handicap that Enma places on him when it uses more of his Haki than he intends. It doesn’t *add *to his Haki pool, it takes more out of it per attack than intended and shrivels up his arm if unmastered. Imagine he’s fighting King and mid fight his arm shrivels. What do you think would happen? That’s why he’s working to overcome the curse and if you go back and read the chapter he gets it he says “so by the time I’m used to this...I would have gotten that much stronger?” It’s all in the words.

Edit: I also wanna add that even Kin’emon advised him to not take the sword. It’s not a sword that you can just acquire and use against someone on a similar level in a serious life or death fight. You’d lose hands down due to the curse. Gotta master it first.

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## Beast (Mar 18, 2020)

Conxc said:


> How many times has Zoro gotten stronger arc to arc without getting a new sword? A higher graded sword is a better quality sword. It’s the difference between the swords Zoro had when he first dueled Mihawk and the Wado for example. They’re more durable and better made. Enma literally places a handicap on it’s user. Zoro’s growth this arc will be the Haki control that he will gain by *conquering *the handicap that Enma places on him when it uses more of his Haki than he intends. It doesn’t *add *to his Haki pool, it takes more out of it per attack than intended and shrivels up his arm if unmastered. Imagine he’s fighting King and mid fight his arm shrivels. What do you think would happen? That’s why he’s working to overcome the curse and if you go back and read the chapter he gets it he says “so by the time I’m used to this...I would have gotten that much stronger?” It’s all in the words.
> 
> Edit: I also wanna add that even Kin’emon advised him to not take the sword. It’s not a sword that you can just acquire and use against someone on a similar level in a serious life or death fight. You’d lose hands down due to the curse. Gotta master it first.


So, you seriously sat down and thought Enma isn’t a power up, it’s actually a curse that makes Zoro weaker.

Wow.


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## Ezekjuninor (Mar 18, 2020)

Conxc said:


> How many times has Zoro gotten stronger arc to arc without getting a new sword? A higher graded sword is a better quality sword. It’s the difference between the swords Zoro had when he first dueled Mihawk and the Wado for example. They’re more durable and better made. Enma literally places a handicap on it’s user. Zoro’s growth this arc will be the Haki control that he will gain by *conquering *the handicap that Enma places on him when it uses more of his Haki than he intends. It doesn’t *add *to his Haki pool, it takes more out of it per attack than intended and shrivels up his arm if unmastered. Imagine he’s fighting King and mid fight his arm shrivels. What do you think would happen? That’s why he’s working to overcome the curse and if you go back and read the chapter he gets it he says “so by the time I’m used to this...I would have gotten that much stronger?” It’s all in the words.
> 
> Edit: I also wanna add that even Kin’emon advised him to not take the sword. It’s not a sword that you can just acquire and use against someone on a similar level in a serious life or death fight. You’d lose hands down due to the curse. Gotta master it first.


It draws out more haki than Zoro would usually be capable of. Just because it doesn't increase his haki pool doesn't mean it isn't a power-up. When Zoro first used Enma it drew out ~100% he's obviously going to master it to a lower % which is still above the amount he would've previously used. Which is a power-up

It's like someone only being able to use 20% of their brain, they put on a helmet that gives them access to 100% but that causes headaches, etc. So they master it to 50%.


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## Conxc (Mar 18, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> So, you seriously sat down and thought Enma isn’t a power up, it’s actually a curse that makes Zoro weaker.
> 
> Wow.


While typing I already knew what kind of response I’d get from you...yet I continued typing so that’s on me. 
I want you to answer what you think would happen to Zoro if his arm kept shriveling every time he went to use an attack vs King. If you don’t see that as a handicap then...I’m not sure where we go from here.


Ezekjuninor said:


> It draws out more haki than Zoro would usually be capable of. Just because it doesn't increase his haki pool doesn't mean it isn't a power-up. When Zoro first used Enma it drew out ~100% he's obviously going to master it to a lower % which is still above the amount he would've previously used. Which is a power-up
> 
> It's like someone only being able to use 20% of their brain, they put on a helmet that gives them access to 100% but that causes headaches, etc. So they master it to 50%.


That’s not the same and also not true. No where in the manga did it state or imply that it draws out more Haki than the user is *capable *of. It was stated to draw out more Haki than the user *intended*. Those are *very *different things. He isn’t trying to master using it at a lower %. He’s mastering not allowing it to sap him of his Haki to the point where he’ll be able to use it like any other sword. By mastering Enma’s curse he’ll gain a crazy amount of Haki control which will lead to other things.

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## Ezekjuninor (Mar 18, 2020)

Conxc said:


> He’s mastering not allowing it to sap him of his Haki to the point where he’ll be able to use it like any other sword. By mastering Enma’s curse he’ll gain a crazy amount of Haki control which will lead to other things.


How does this make him stronger then? What are these "other things" that he would gain from haki control.


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## Beast (Mar 18, 2020)

Conxc said:


> While typing I already knew what kind of response I’d get from you...yet I continued typing so that’s on me.
> I want you to answer what you think would happen to Zoro if his arm kept shriveling every time he went to use an attack vs King. If you don’t see that as a handicap then...I’m not sure where we go from here.
> That’s not the same and also not true. No where in the manga did it state or imply that it draws out more Haki than the user is *capable *of. It was stated to draw out more Haki than the user *intended*. Those are *very *different things. He isn’t trying to master using it at a lower %. He’s mastering not allowing it to sap him of his Haki to the point where he’ll be able to use it like any other sword. By mastering Enma’s curse he’ll gain a crazy amount of Haki control which will lead to other things.


it literally shrivel up once and you see him training with it normally after.

Sometimes you don’t have to be so analytic  over every some detail like this isn’t a fictional story. In what world, do you live in where you could think that Sanji getting a power up, Liffy getting a power up, that zoro would get  down grade to face a yonko.

Zoro must have come out of this TS, PK tier and is only now degrading himself as to not... idk why.

Why would Zoro trade in shusui for a downgrade?

You also forget that it brings his haki out to its fullest but of course you see it as a draw back and not a power up.

It’s pretty funny that you still think that Zoro got a down grade, every sword he received must have been a downgrade.


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## Conxc (Mar 18, 2020)

Ezekjuninor said:


> How does this make him stronger then? What are these "other things" that he would gain from haki control.


Mastering Enma = mastering CoA. What was Luffy trying to acquire all the time he was in the jail through CoA Mastery? Advanced CoAWhich is so much of a game changer that we are to believe that Luffy stands a chance against Kaido now after previously getting one shot without leaving a scratch on him.


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## Conxc (Mar 18, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> it literally shrivel up once and you see him training with it normally after.
> 
> Sometimes you don’t have to be so analytic  over every some detail like this isn’t a fictional story. In what world, do you live in where you could think that Sanji getting a power up, Liffy getting a power up, that zoro would get  down grade to face a yonko.


Once is enough in a serious fight against someone that is >=. And if it happened once before mastering it, it would happen again until mastered. Like I said, if he had pulled out Enma for the first time ever against King and that happened to him he’d be done for.

This isn’t being over analytical of anything, lol this is explicit stated plain as day in the text of the manga. Literally just...read. Maybe you and I have a different definition of “power up” because the only one that got an outright power up was Sanji. Luffy trained to acquire advanced CoA and Zoro is training his Haki mastery to use the cursed sword. The explicitly stated to be cursed sword. The sword that Kin’emon advises Zoro to leave alone cursed sword.



> Zoro must have come out of this TS, PK tier and is only now degrading himself as to not... idk why.
> 
> Why would Zoro trade in shusui for a downgrade?


So you don’t understand what Zoro stands to gain by using Enma to master his Haki use?

Zoro by character is someone who likes to accept challenges. Also the fight is nearing and he still hadn’t been able to retrieve Shusui from Gyukimaru and Hiyori’s like “lol I have another sword” and it’s not like Zoro isn’t understanding of the impact that Shusui has to Wano. 



> You also forget that it brings his haki out to its fullest but of course you see it as a draw back and not a power up.
> 
> It’s pretty funny that you still think that Zoro got a down grade, every sword he received must have been a downgrade.


I never said that he got a downgrade. *When mastered *what he stands to gain (in forced Haki mastery) is better than simply running around with Shusui which doesn’t force him to become better like Enma does. And sapping more Haki than intended in a battle of attrition while also shriveling your limbs...if that’s a power up to you then idk man.

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## Zuhaitz (Mar 19, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Mastering Enma = mastering CoA. What was Luffy trying to acquire all the time he was in the jail through CoA Mastery? Advanced CoAWhich is so much of a game changer that we are to believe that Luffy stands a chance against Kaido now after previously getting one shot without leaving a scratch on him.



That's stupid. If the only thing Enma is good for is to train, then Zoro shouldn't use it in an actual battle, unless he is a retard. He should carry a regular sword, as by your words it's better than Enma.


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## Conxc (Mar 19, 2020)

Zuhaitz said:


> That's stupid. If the only thing Enma is good for is to train, then Zoro shouldn't use it in an actual battle, unless he is a retard. He should carry a regular sword, as by your words it's better than Enma.


It’s a top graded weapon meaning despite the curse it’s *still *a better made and more durable sword than any common sword or a lower graded one. That’s reason alone to prefer it over lesser graded swords *as long as you can master it*.... but let me ask you this. If it were a flat upgrade, and didn’t have the drawbacks that many of you *choose *to ignore exist, why would Kin’emon advise him to *not *take the sword? Kin’emon probably wants to see Kaido sink more than anyone else and he knows Zoro is an asset, so why would he advise Zoro to turn down a shoe-in upgrade?

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## Etherborn (Mar 19, 2020)

Enma is undoubtedly a powerup. By itself, it's not an instant one though; its most obvious benefit is that if you can master it, it will increase the strength of your Armament Haki.


With that said, this is not going to be a long term investment. Zoro has already begun getting used to Enma as of the end of chapter 955, as stated by Hitetsu.


Bottom left panel.

He implies that the reason he is getting used to it quicker is because it shares a connection with Wado Ichimonji, which is made by the same blade smith.


So yes, Enma has already powered up Zoro by some margin that we are unaware of.


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 19, 2020)

Conxc said:


> It’s a top graded weapon meaning despite the curse it’s *still *a better made and more durable sword than any common sword or a lower graded one. That’s reason alone to prefer it over lesser graded swords *as long as you can master it*.... but let me ask you this. If it were a flat upgrade, and didn’t have the drawbacks that many of you *choose *to ignore exist, why would Kin’emon advise him to *not *take the sword? Kin’emon probably wants to see Kaido sink more than anyone else and he knows Zoro is an asset, so why would he advise Zoro to turn down a shoe-in upgrade?


Any grade sword is a big upgrade, not just more durable and better made, it's a magical sword that escapes reason as it was explained by the guy that makes magical swords. And in this case is a big risk big gain magical sword.

It powers up his attacking power by a lot, at the same time if the user isn't powerful enough it also takes a lot of haki.

If you were right and Enma was merely a more durable and better made sword, Zoro would be the most stupid character for using a tool that is so risky and gives him no power up in such a deathly situation, even more considering that the durability shouldn't be as important now that he can use CoA on the sword. On the other hand if I'm right he has gotten himself a hell of a power up.


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## Conxc (Mar 19, 2020)

Etherborn said:


> Enma is undoubtedly a powerup. By itself, it's not an instant one though; its most obvious benefit is that if you can master it, it will increase the strength of your Armament Haki.
> 
> 
> With that said, this is not going to be a long term investment. Zoro has already begun getting used to Enma as of the end of chapter 955, as stated by Hitetsu.
> ...


*It *doesn’t increase the power of Armament Haki. That was never said. As stated in the panel you posted, it draws out the user’s CoA *and *cuts deeper than intended. This is a chain of effect. It cuts deeper than intended *because *it draws out more CoA from the user. All of this is unintentional unless mastered, which you would be able to control how much Haki you use with it. *That’s *where Zoro is to get stronger. By mastering his Haki use to the extent where it won’t just draw Haki from him. As it is now with no mastery it makes a battle of attrition against an equal or better opponent impossible. It’s going to force him to increase the quality of his Haki and control, unlike any other sword that we know of and that’s huge. At this point I’m just gonna day that’s the way that I interpreted it.



> He implies that the reason he is getting used to it quicker is because it shares a connection with Wado Ichimonji, which is made by the same blade smith.
> 
> 
> So yes, Enma has already powered up Zoro by some margin that we are unaware of.


I still think that if it were just a flat power up Kin’emon would not have advised him to *not *take the sword. It makes no sense.


Zuhaitz said:


> Any grade sword is a big upgrade, not just more durable and better made, it's a magical sword that escapes reason as it was explained by the guy that makes magical swords. And in this case is a big risk big gain magical sword.


Yes, but the big gain lies in what you achieve *by *mastering it. It doesn’t just give you anything *just *for using it outside of a better made, more durable sword.



> It powers up his attacking power by a lot, at the same time if the user isn't powerful enough it also takes a lot of haki.


The cost of getting a couple of attacks in with more power outweighs the gain. Again, in a battle of attrition against an even opponent, the wielded would lose. One casual attack shriveled you Zoro’s arm. How many “powered up” attacks do you get in without draining your Haki pool and stamina? The curse is a setback if the sword isn’t mastered.



> If you were right and Enma was merely a more durable and better made sword, Zoro would be the most stupid character for using a tool that is so risky and gives him no power up in such a deathly situation, even more considering that the durability shouldn't be as important now that he can use CoA on the sword. On the other hand if I'm right he has gotten himself a hell of a power up.


Zoro is by character a guy that likes challenges. Again, even though he was urged to not take the sword, knowing it’s curse, he *still *took the sword. Back when he got Yubashiri he was told it was a cursed blade that ever wielded before him had used and died. This is when he knew nothing of graded swords, yet he still took it. Again I’ll ask, if it’s a flat power up why would Kin’emon tell him to not take it?

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## Etherborn (Mar 19, 2020)

Conxc said:


> *It *doesn’t increase the power of Armament Haki. That was never said. As stated in the panel you posted, it draws out the user’s CoA *and *cuts deeper than intended. This is a chain of effect. It cuts deeper than intended *because *it draws out more CoA from the user. All of this is unintentional unless mastered, which you would be able to control how much Haki you use with it. *That’s *where Zoro is to get stronger. By mastering his Haki use to the extent where it won’t just draw Haki from him. As it is now with no mastery it makes a battle of attrition against an equal or better opponent impossible. It’s going to force him to increase the quality of his Haki and control, unlike any other sword that we know of and that’s huge. At this point I’m just gonna day that’s the way that I interpreted it.
> 
> I still think that if it were just a flat power up Kin’emon would not have advised him to *not *take the sword. It makes no sense.



Did you not read the panels I posted? Zoro straight up says that he'll be stronger once he gets used to the sword. Zoro's statement > your interpretation. 

You also ignored what I posted about Hitetsu saying that the sword shares a connection with Wado Ichimonji, and that Zoro was already getting used to it by the end of the chapter.

Kinemon advised Zoro not to use it because it's difficult to handle, and would most likely get most swordsmen killed by draining their life force, either leaving them defenseless or killing them outright. Zoro was already able to forcibly take his Haki back from the sword upon first using it though, which shows that it's not as dangerous for someone of his caliber, and thus proves Kinemon wrong.


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 19, 2020)

Conxc said:


> It doesn’t just give you anything *just *for using it outside of a better made, more durable sword.



Then Zoro is the most stupid character for using a tool that it's a power down in battle. He can always make any sword as durable as he wants with his haki, why carry an sword that it's a power down to an actual battle?

He should use Enma just to train and regular sword for actual battle.

Except that Enma doesn't only use Zoro's haki to cut, it also has its own magic to increase the cutting power beyond what Zoro can do.


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## Conxc (Mar 19, 2020)

Etherborn said:


> Did you not read the panels I posted? Zoro straight up says that he'll be stronger once he gets used to the sword. Zoro's statement > your interpretation.


Bro, I used the *same *panel to *prove *my point in this very thread. He *will *be stronger by the time he’s used to it because getting used to it means that he would have mastered his Haki that much more. *That’s *exactly what the “getting stronger” part is. Did you read what you said?



> You also ignored what I posted about Hitetsu saying that the sword shares a connection with Wado Ichimonji, and that Zoro was already getting used to it by the end of the chapter.


What bearing does that have in the discussion on if it’s a power up or not? Literally the only significance that line has it to how he’s mastering Enma so quickly. I didn’t address it because it’s irrelevant to what we are discussing.



> Kinemon advised Zoro not to use it because it's difficult to handle, and would most likely get most swordsmen killed by draining their life force, either leaving them defenseless or killing them outright. Zoro was already able to forcibly take his Haki back from the sword upon first using it though, which shows that it's not as dangerous for someone of his caliber, and thus proves Kinemon wrong.


And again you’re proving me correct with your own words. Whether or not Kinnemon was proven wrong or not is irrelevant. The basis on why he advised against taking the sword is that the sword is cursed and that *if *the user couldn’t master it, it would just be a hindrance. Obviously it will work out for Zoro but that doesn’t change the fact that *if not mastered *its a handicap.


Zuhaitz said:


> Then Zoro is the most stupid character for using a tool that it's a power down in battle. He can always make any sword as durable as he wants with his haki, why carry an sword that it's a power down to an actual battle?
> 
> He should use Enma just to train and regular sword for actual battle.
> 
> Except that Enma doesn't only use Zoro's haki to cut, it also has its own magic to increase the cutting power beyond what Zoro can do.


Lol Zoron and the magic sword. Has a ring to it, but no. You made that up because the manga surely doesn’t say that. It explicitly states how and why it cuts more than intended. Also, you chose *one *line of mine to respond to. No answers for the rest?

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## Dunno (Mar 19, 2020)

Enma is more of a sidegrade than anything. There's a reason Oda kept it at the same rank as the sword he lost, to create ambiguity. Every other time Zoro has received a sword upgrade, he has upgraded the rank of his swords, making it clear as day that the sword he received was superior to his older one. Enma seems to be more offensive and harder to control than Shusui, but most importantly it has the potential to grow and turn into a Saijo o Wazamono if Zoro manages to turn it black.

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 19, 2020)

Enma not a power up


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## Conxc (Mar 19, 2020)

Y’all arguments have sure been dry since it was proven to be a lie that Enma is the only sword known to cut Kaido...Even just a little reading comp would go a long way.

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 19, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Y’all arguments have sure been dry since it was proven to be a lie that Enma is the only sword known to cut Kaido...Even just a little reading comp would go a long way.



That's what happens when people only read fan translations

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## Conxc (Mar 19, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> That's what happens when people only read fan translations


Wow. You sure showed me.

Is that the Viz translation? What does it say when Zoro decided to keep Enma? The “getting used to this will make me stronger” bit?


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## Dunno (Mar 19, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> That's what happens when people only read fan translations


She says that, but in the flashback we can see that Oden uses his two swords to cut Kaido, giving him the x-shaped scar. Pictures are canon, statements by characters are not. Why do you think Oda gave Zoro a sword of the same grade as the one he lost if he wanted it to be a major and unambigous power-up?

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 19, 2020)

Dunno said:


> She says that, but in the flashback we can see that Oden uses his two swords to cut Kaido, giving him the x-shaped scar. Pictures are canon, statements by characters are not. Why do you think Oda gave Zoro a sword of the same grade as the one he lost if he wanted it to be a major and unambigous power-up?



Not sure what you are getting at. Enma gave kaidou a scar that's all she is saying. Shes not saying another blade was not involved like other translations would say. 

Not sure what's unambiguous about it? Oda gave Zoro a blade that cut kaidou, and synergies with another one of his blades Wano. It's a extremely powerful blade not just a training tool for Zoro.


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## Dunno (Mar 19, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Not sure what you are getting at. Enma gave kaidou a scar that's all she is saying. Shes not saying another blade was not involved like other translations would say.
> 
> Not sure what's unambiguous about it? Oda gave Zoro a blade that cut kaidou, and synergies with another one of his blades Wano. It's a extremely powerful blade not just a training tool for Zoro.


I thought you were claiming that Enma was the only sword to scar Kaido. It seems I was wrong. 

Of course it's an extremely powerful blade. Zoro lost an extremely powerful blade as well though. Enma is probably a sword which fits Zoro better, but it's overall quality is on the same level as Shusui, as shown by their rank. All of Zoro's previous sword upgrades have been to clearly superior ones, this is the first time it's not that clear cut.

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## Conxc (Mar 19, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Not sure what you are getting at. Enma gave kaidou a scar that's all she is saying. Shes not saying another blade was not involved like other translations would say.
> 
> Not sure what's unambiguous about it? Oda gave Zoro a blade that cut kaidou, and synergies with another one of his blades Wano. It's a extremely powerful blade not just a training tool for Zoro.


Just so we’re clear here, she still isn’t saying that only Enma cut Kaido. She is saying that it is one of the swords that cut Kaido. Kaido’s scar is X shaped consistent with being cut by two swords yet it’s one scar. Enma seemed more special back when the translations said that it was *the *sword that cut Kaido.

Yes, but Enma didn’t cut Kaido because that’s what the sword does..Enma cut Kaido because Oden was a beast. Cutting Kaido was 100% an Oden feat. You can’t give his swords to Usopp and expect him to be able to cut Kaido just because he wields the swords. It’s an very high graded sword that simply has requirements to use. The fact that it forces its user to get stronger and better alone gives it the leg up against any old sword or even a lesser graded sword.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 19, 2020)

Dunno said:


> I thought you were claiming that Enma was the only sword to scar Kaido. It seems I was wrong.
> 
> Of course it's an extremely powerful blade. Zoro lost an extremely powerful blade as well though. Enma is probably a sword which fits Zoro better, but it's overall quality is on the same level as Shusui, as shown by their rank. All of Zoro's previous sword upgrades have been to clearly superior ones, this is the first time it's not that clear cut.



Eh I don't really see it.

When Zoro got ryuma he hyped it up, but all we actually saw was his air slashes being bigger due to ryuma causing the individual slashes to combine together.

He has not fought with Enma yet so little early to be saying it's not a clear cut power up when he has not used it in combat yet



Conxc said:


> Just so we’re clear here, she still isn’t saying that only Enma cut Kaido. She is saying that it is one of the swords that cut Kaido. Kaido’s scar is X shaped consistent with being cut by two swords yet it’s one scar. Enma seemed more special back when the translations said that it was *the *sword that cut Kaido.
> 
> Yes, but Enma didn’t cut Kaido because that’s what the sword does..Enma cut Kaido because Oden was a beast. Cutting Kaido was 100% an Oden feat. You can’t give his swords to Usopp and expect him to be able to cut Kaido just because he wields the swords. It’s an very high graded sword that simply has requirements to use. The fact that it forces its user to get stronger and better alone gives it the leg up against any old sword or even a lesser graded sword.



I agree the previous translations hyped it up slightly more but not really a big deal either way. 

Of course Enma isn't some divine blade that has special bonus damage vs Kaidou and no one else. Still the selling point of the sword oda is pointing out is it's high level attack power. Yes I agree doesn't mean anybody can cut kaidou but what it does mean is that Enma and by virtue Odens other blade have extremely high attack potency. More so then Ryuma which is hyped for its hardness which who cares no ones breaking Zoros swords at this point he doesnt need hardness to hurt kaidou he needs attack power


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## Conxc (Mar 19, 2020)

Dunno said:


> I thought you were claiming that Enma was the only sword to scar Kaido. It seems I was wrong.
> 
> Of course it's an extremely powerful blade. Zoro lost an extremely powerful blade as well though. Enma is probably a sword which fits Zoro better, but it's overall quality is on the same level as Shusui, as shown by their rank. All of Zoro's previous sword upgrades have been to clearly superior ones, this is the first time it's not that clear cut.


Exactly...like I’m not sure what’s so hard to understand about this. Yubashira + Kitetsu = obvious upgrades over the two nameless swords they replaced. Yubashira to Shusui = obvious upgrade. Shusui is an entire tier up from Yuba. Shusui to Enma = same grade but unlike Shusui Enma actually has a drawback you have to overcome to use properly...

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## Zuhaitz (Mar 20, 2020)

Can someone explain why Zoro will use an sword that is a power down in a battle?

Is he stupid?


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## Ren. (Mar 20, 2020)

Etherborn said:


> endurance feat in Wano was just an outlier.


So was TB and some can't stop wanking that one!

And what I mean with some, the tier specialist called Z boys!

 By the way I have a feeling that @Yuji @Conxc  are from OJ and now inhabitents of WG.

@Donquixote Doflamingo  you are wasting your time, just saying!

@Dunno  is just 

I just hope @Conxc  is not Bogard and you should stop the church of Enma is a dowgrande, keep it next to Pica YC2 and Zoro was Admirals level and stronger than Luffy after the TS!

@TheWiggian  sorry for even associating you with these that I named 

Not like they did not check the marks on my threads so yeah fan boys what can we do!

Pro tip you guys might like this:

*Spoiler*: __

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## Conxc (Mar 20, 2020)

@Ren. Wanking in a wank complaint post? Legendary.


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## Beast (Mar 20, 2020)

@Conxc 
You probably think FS wasn’t a power up.


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## Conxc (Mar 20, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> @Conxc
> You probably think FS wasn’t a power up.


FS definitely was and a bullshit one to boot. I still believe Katakuri was robbed and I’m glad Oda did better with Luffy gaining advanced CoA...but I really hope that you know the difference between something of instant impact and something that needs to be trained to be of use? I.e Sanji slapping on his Raidsuit vs Luffy *training *to acquire advanced CoA.


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## Steven (Mar 20, 2020)

Nothing changed

RS Sanji>Enma Zoron


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## Beast (Mar 20, 2020)

Conxc said:


> I.e Sanji slapping on his Raidsuit vs Luffy *training *to acquire advanced CoA.


you're comparing apples and oranges but keep forgetting that they are still both fruits.
Doesn’t matter if they have to train it, unlock it or open a box, to gain their power up.
FS, RS, Enma and unlocking haki for Ussop is still a power up, they differ in how much the person benefits from it but they all benefit aka a power up.

Enma Zoro is stronger then Zoro before Enma.
FS luffy is stronger then luffy without FS.

Raidsuit Sanji is stronger then Sanji without the raidsuit.

You’re really nitpicking words to suit your needs... it’s simple as Zoro would have never traded Shusui if Enma wasn’t better.

It always took out more BH then Zoro could withdraw, already giving him the sense of BH realease he has never reached as soon as he touched it. Zoros arms have never gone skinny nor has anyone that has ever used just BH be it with a sword or not, but Enma is different AND special.

Yet, because Zoro has to get use to it... it’s not a power up?
Well, I guess no one other Sanji has ever had a power up.


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## Conxc (Mar 20, 2020)

@MasterBeast If you want an answer to most of what you posted, refer to my older posts. Not typing all that and the difference between what you’re saying Enma does and what it *actually *does again...

Talking power ups, in this case as far as Luffy, Zoro and Sanji go, the only one that was *literally *handed a power up for free, not even a drop of sweat necessary, was Sanji. Luffy has to train to acquire advanced CoA and Zoro has to train to not have Enma be a handicap to him. *Untrained *and *unmastered*, Enma is no better than Shusui. In fact, without mastering it he’d be better off with Shusui.


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## Beast (Mar 20, 2020)

Conxc said:


> @MasterBeast If you want an answer to most of what you posted, refer to my older posts. Not typing all that and the difference between what you’re saying Enma does and what it *actually *does again...
> 
> Talking power ups, in this case as far as Luffy, Zoro and Sanji go, the only one that was *literally *handed a power up for free, not even a drop of sweat necessary, was Sanji. Luffy has to train to acquire advanced CoA and Zoro has to train to not have Enma be a handicap to him. *Untrained *and *unmastered*, Enma is no better than Shusui. In fact, without mastering it he’d be better off with Shusui.


My post is in accordance to the post I qouted.
But seems like you don’t care.

Let’s take another approach.

Sanji gets the freest power up.
Zoros comes second.

Luffy is last as he had to unlock his power up and then train it.

Zoro was given the power up within the sword and just needs to master it.

Also, I’m not sure what you mean by what the sword can do... it literally took out more BH then Zoro has ever done... do you not see his arm? His arm looked like Luffy after a full round of G4, are you going to claim Zoro could always bring out such haki even though he has never?


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## Conxc (Mar 20, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> My post is in accordance to the post I qouted.
> But seems like you don’t care.
> 
> Let’s take another approach.
> ...


However you wanna slice it. Oda didn’t show Luffy training...Zoro training...and Sanji doing...nothing for no reason. Just saying.



> Zoro was given the power up within the sword and just needs to master it.


Yes, having a sword that sucks out your Haki more than intended and shrivels your limbs is quite the power up.



> Also, I’m not sure what you mean by what the sword can do... it literally took out more BH then Zoro has ever done... do you not see his arm? His arm looked like Luffy after a full round of G4, are you going to claim Zoro could always bring out such haki even though he has never?


You are still mistaken on this. The G4 reference shows that you don’t really have a clue...after Luffy overuses G4 he’s put in a state of exhaustion and he is *unable *to control or use his Haki until it charges back up. When Zoro’s arm was shriveled it was still black from CoA use and furthermore he wasn’t exhausted in any sense and was even able to take his Haki back from the sword. These situations have absolutely nothing in common. I don’t understand why y’all are so hell bent on ignoring what is explicitly stated in the text? They literally tell you that the sword cuts more than intended *because *it uses more Haki than the user intends. CoA adds DC and lethality to an attack. That’s exactly what happened when Zoro cut the coast. *The sword itself does not boost your attacks like some kind of enchantment. The Haki it saps from you boosts the attacks. *It’s a curse, hence why Kinnemon advises Zoro to not take the sword. Why else would he do that? The golden question that everyone has avoided so far. And if you think cutting a coast shows a level of CoA that he supposedly hasn’t shown, then you need to re-read Dressrosa friend and ask Pica.

edit: That’s the last I’m gonna repeat all that. We’ll never agree on this so let’s wait and see him use the sword in combat.

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## Beast (Mar 20, 2020)

Conxc said:


> However you wanna slice it. Oda didn’t show Luffy training...Zoro training...and Sanji doing...nothing for no reason. Just saying.
> 
> Yes, having a sword that sucks out your Haki more than intended and shrivels your limbs is quite the power up.
> 
> ...


not bothered to quote bits of your post so I’ll do that number thing. 

1. And sanji trains when exactly? 
Sanji never trains and even train within the two years just meant fighting and running. 

A sword that takes out more haki then you could before is a power once you’ve mastered it.


2. No no, it was a simple Comparison for how they looked, G4 isn’t going to affect the body the same way as haki would, though it’s mainly because of the haki that luffy is in that state but not the only reason. I used the comparison for how they LOOKED, not that they were exactly under the same affect.

Why do you think his hand shrivel up? 
It’s a simple question, you don’t need to go around the world to answer. 

3. Let’s make it very clear then. Zoro has never used that much haki out of his hands or his hand would have never shrivelled up to that point that is a simple fact, if he could with draw that much haki, he wouldn’t need to learn to master the sword as he would already have control of his haki but he doesn’t and for a second without his control it zapped out more haki then he could with draw. 

4. Mastering the sword would mean to master his haki even further and the sword is a medium, it helps him draw out haki, he wouldn’t  yet be able to draw out without it. Meaning unless there is more special sword that draws out your power in one way or another, no other Swords would be able to give Zoro this same boost in mastering his haki as Enma, so it is a power up. Enma makes him stronger then shusui that much is a fact.


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## Beast (Mar 20, 2020)

I think I get why you keep dancing around this power up thing... it’s the word intended, lol.
Wow.

Zoro didn’t INTEND to use that much haki on the cliff that is right, but Zoro CANNOT draw out that much haki WITHOUT Enma as he has NEVR done so BEFORE.


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## Ren. (Mar 20, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> I think I get why you keep dancing around this power up thing... it’s the word intended, lol.
> Wow.
> 
> Zoro didn’t INTEND to use that much haki on the cliff that is right, but Zoro CANNOT draw out that much haki WITHOUT Enma as he has NEVR done so BEFORE.


LOL, nice pacience there.

It is simple can Zoro cut with Sushui Kaido if not Enma is a power up!

Simple.


If not then Shusui also was not a power and so on.

I can elaborate even more to Z boys like him

Snake man is  a power up for G4 because it is way faster even if it weaker than Bound Man with KKG.

Shusui maybe a black blade aka harder but Enma can take more haki and cut way better.

So it is a power up because with Shushui he can cut as good as with Enam similar to Snake man beein faster and needed for kata.


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## Conxc (Mar 20, 2020)

I said I wouldn’t but...sigh.


MasterBeast said:


> not bothered to quote bits of your post so I’ll do that number thing.
> 
> 1. And sanji trains when exactly?
> Sanji never trains and even train within the two years just meant fighting and running.
> ...


1. My point exactly.

Bro, you’re continuing to mistake Enma taking more than *intended *with more than *capable*. It was *never *said to draw out more Haki that the user is *capable *of using at once. Here’s an example. Let’s say you have $10,000 in your bank account. You want to withdraw $2,000 but the teller hands you $5,000. That’s how Enma works. It doesn’t turn your $10,000 into $100,000. 

2. Appearance means nothing without the context. The causes of these things are different. Luffy shriveling up is a result of his Haki pool being exhausted which directly ties into stamina. Zoro lost no stamina as a result of his arm shriveling. Yes, it shriveled because Enma sucked out more Haki than intended, not more than Zoro is capable of using. That’s the part you’re struggling with.

3. Beast, I want you to read what you’re saying. If Zoro has never used the amount of Haki that Enma took he would have a plated to be exhausted in some way shape or form. Haki ties into stamina. Luffy has shown us this. Zoro showed 0 sign of exhaustion and immediately was able to take the Haki back. That isn’t possible for someone not use to dealing with that amount of Haki. Context clues Beast.

4. You’re making up the “more than capable” part. I can show you scans of “more than intended. Show me a reliable scan that says that it draws out “more than capable.” They are two very different things.


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## Beast (Mar 20, 2020)

Ren. said:


> LOL, nice pacience there.
> 
> It is simple can Zoro cut with Sushui Kaido if not Enma is a power up!
> 
> ...


Enma being a special sword is clear as day,  it’s finny when people hold on to a certain type of translation and choice of words because we all know what happens every couple weeks or couples month or couple years, someone is correct the mistranslation and then someone else
Is going to correct that and so on.


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## Conxc (Mar 20, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Enma being a special sword is clear as day,  it’s finny when people hold on to a certain type of translation and choice of words because we all know what happens every couple weeks or couples month or couple years, someone is correct the mistranslation and then someone else
> Is going to correct that and so on.


Out the Viz scan where your mouth is then. Let’s put this to rest. How does Viz translate that chapter?


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 20, 2020)

Has anyone answered why Zoro is going to war with a training tool that's a power down?

He is basically going to fight with a dumbbell apparently....

Is he stupid?


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## Beast (Mar 20, 2020)

Conxc said:


> I said I wouldn’t but...sigh.
> 1. My point exactly.
> 
> Bro, you’re continuing to mistake Enma taking more than *intended *with more than *capable*. It was *never *said to draw out more Haki that the user is *capable *of using at once. Here’s an example. Let’s say you have $10,000 in your bank account. You want to withdraw $2,000 but the teller hands you $5,000. That’s how Enma works. It doesn’t turn your $10,000 into $100,000.
> ...


it happens the best of us bruh. 
1. What do you mean your point exactly... Sanji never trains, I doubt that has anything to do with their current power ups or their previous ones. Sanji has always reminded the same and never trains. 

Intent is one that is for sure, but Zoro has never used haki to the point that his arm had shrivelled all juice inside his arm, never. His arm would have never shrivelled up if it experience such haki usage before. 

2. Nah man, you span it your own way, I used it as a visual comparison, it is not the same because one luffy is using G4 and G4 isn’t just haki, but muscle/ DF usuage as well, same way he got smaller when G3 ran out, he got skinner when g4 runs out, obviously the haki drainage makes him look even worse, but it’s not just a simple case of haki running out it’s also stamina from not only fighting but maintaining the G4 form. Zoros hand only looks like the state luffys arms were in but not the same as luffy couldn’t move (apparently he could) and Zoro is still clenching in the Sword.
Zoro has never use that much haki or his arm would have never shrivelled up, as it would already be used to having that much haki run through it. 


3. His arm did, or do you keep forgetting that side affect? His arm shrivelling up is a direct result of Enma sucking out some much haki, if his arm and himself was so use to exerting that much haki, it would have never shrivelled up, I don’t know how many times I have to say that.
Not mention that Zoro just swing the sword, not even actually attacking or using a named move, so if he did try to use all his power, he would have been on the floor but because he held back, it only result in his arm shrivelling up and not his whole body maybe.

4. Ahhh, so you go for show me the scans direction lol. But there is no scans to show and that is best bit of it all, Zoro hasn’t shown to be capable of drawing out that much haki before using any other sword. That’s why I said Enma is a power up because it allows Zoro to draw out more haki then he could before and once he masters it, as he said he will be much stronger and what makes you much stronger without being a power up? 

5. Seems like a misunderstanding or should I say, we both have different understanding on how Enma operates and what it brings to the table and I’ll gladly tell you that you are wrong my friend.


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## Beast (Mar 20, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Out the Viz scan where your mouth is then. Let’s put this to rest. How does Viz translate that chapter?


What?
I’m sure someone can provide that same page.

Not sure what that has do with what I said, even the Viz has been wrong before and I’ve never been the type to argue over a simple word, when you refuse to look at the bigger picture.


Zuhaitz said:


> Has anyone answered why Zoro is going to war with a training tool that's a power down?
> 
> He is basically going to fight with a dumbbell apparently....
> 
> Is he stupid?


Marimo.


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## Thdyingbreed (Mar 20, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> I think I get why you keep dancing around this power up thing... it’s the word intended, lol.
> Wow.


The reason is obvious I’d be willing to bet he’s one of those people who wants to claim that Zoro was equal to Luffy at the start of the timeskip despite feats indictating Luffy being on another level with G4 but they can’t do that if Zoro got powerup hence why he keeps tryna claim it’s not a powerup so they can scale that Zoro to this Zoro.

He’s also one of the same people who kept trying to say Zoro only fainted against Killer because of food poisoning or whatever bull shit for like 5 pages.


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## Beast (Mar 20, 2020)

Thdyingbreed said:


> The reason is obvious I’d be willing to bet he’s one of those people who wants to claim that Zoro was equal to Luffy at the start of the timeskip despite feats indictating Luffy being on another level with G4 but they can’t do that if Zoro got powerup hence why he keeps tryna claim it’s not a powerup so they can scale that Zoro to this Zoro.
> 
> He’s also one of the same people who kept trying to say Zoro only fainted against Killer because of food poisoning or whatever bull shit for like 5 pages.


Wait, don’t give him ideas. 

Next thing we know, Zoros hand shrivelled from hunger not Enma.


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## Conxc (Mar 20, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> it happens the best of us bruh.
> 1. What do you mean your point exactly... Sanji never trains, I doubt that has anything to do with their current power ups or their previous ones. Sanji has always reminded the same and never trains.


In this case he literally doesn’t have to.



> Intent is one that is for sure, but Zoro has never used haki to the point that his arm had shrivelled all juice inside his arm, never. His arm would have never shrivelled up if it experience such haki usage before.


Again, Haki is tied into stamina. Haki isn’t assigned to certain body parts. You don’t have a Haki reserve for your arm, or your left leg, or your head, etc. If the only factor to Zoro’s arm shriveling up is Haki exhaustion, he would have shown *some *kind of stamina drop. He definitely would not have been able to near effortlessly take retract the Haki back from the sword of his arm had never experienced that much Haki flowing through it as you say. I see *why *you might think that, but how does one show control over an amount of Haki they are unfamiliar with instantly?



> 2. Nah man, you span it your own way, I used it as a visual comparison, it is not the same because one luffy is using G4 and G4 isn’t just haki, but muscle/ DF usuage as well, same way he got smaller when G3 ran out, he got skinner when g4 runs out, obviously the haki drainage makes him look even worse, but it’s not just a simple case of haki running out it’s also stamina from not only fighting but maintaining the G4 form. Zoros hand only looks like the state luffys arms were in but not the same as luffy couldn’t move (apparently he could) and Zoro is still clenching in the Sword.
> Zoro has never use that much haki or his arm would have never shrivelled up, as it would already be used to having that much haki run through it.


But G4 is still only possible due to Haki. It’s the driving force in why it is what it is. Once his Haki reserve depleted, Luffy could not use G4 anymore because he couldn’t use Haki anymore. That’s why he needed to wait until his Haki came back. There’s no G4 without Haki, fact. We’ve seen what Haki exhaustion looks like. What you’re implying is impossible. It cannot draw out Haki that isn’t there and it does not expand the user’s Haki pool.




> 3. His arm did, or do you keep forgetting that side affect? His arm shrivelling up is a direct result of Enma sucking out some much haki, if his arm and himself was so use to exerting that much haki, it would have never shrivelled up, I don’t know how many times I have to say that.
> Not mention that Zoro just swing the sword, not even actually attacking or using a named move, so if he did try to use all his power, he would have been on the floor but because he held back, it only result in his arm shrivelling up and not his whole body maybe.


The sword cannot take out Haki that isn’t there. It simply takes out more than intended. That’s what the manga says and that’s cut and dry as hell.



> 4. Ahhh, so you go for show me the scans direction lol. But there is no scans to show and that is best bit of it all, Zoro hasn’t shown to be capable of drawing out that much haki before using any other sword. That’s why I said Enma is a power up because it allows Zoro to draw out more haki then he could before and once he masters it, as he said he will be much stronger and what makes you much stronger without being a power up?
> 
> 5. Seems like a misunderstanding or should I say, we both have different understanding on how Enma operates and what it brings to the table and I’ll gladly tell you that you are wrong my friend.


You have no scans to support your interpretation yet I do, but I’m wrong? Lol ok.


Edit: Y’all can get together and dance around the points by mocking me all y’all want. Doesn’t change the fact that your argument is trash.


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## Conxc (Mar 20, 2020)

@MasterBeast All love for you beast but the background characters. Fuck em.


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## Beast (Mar 20, 2020)

Conxc said:


> In this case he literally doesn’t have to.
> 
> Again, Haki is tied into stamina. Haki isn’t assigned to certain body parts. You don’t have a Haki reserve for your arm, or your left leg, or your head, etc. If the only factor to Zoro’s arm shriveling up is Haki exhaustion, he would have shown *some *kind of stamina drop. He definitely would not have been able to near effortlessly take retract the Haki back from the sword of his arm had never experienced that much Haki flowing through it as you say. I see *why *you might think that, but how does one show control over an amount of Haki they are unfamiliar with instantly?
> 
> ...


And that’s a bad thing?
No one is claiming or making these powers as a bad thing. Not sure what point it is you were trying to make.

The part that shrivelled up was the part covered in BH, Haki can be used on just a certain part of the body, the part that was using haki was drained instantly, so whether you want to call it a haki reserve or not is up to you, Zoro was even able to retact it.

G4 is impossible without muscle ballon, so it’s not just a haki thing as I’ve clearly said already, it was not just haki hitting rock bottom. Luffy can still run around without haki and fight and etc.

Of course the sword doesn’t magically take out haki resveres that were never there but it can tape into how much of the haki it can draw out.

What you said isn’t really supported when the character in hand is even saying otherwise, you’re the only one to claim that this isn’t a power up for Zoro, even Zoro thinks otherwise.

 If Zoro can only draw out 60% of his haki with his attacks without shrivelling his arm as that’s what his body and mind has gotten use to at this point in time, Enma helps him draw out 80 or even 100% of his haki EVEN at the cost of shrivelling his arm but after mastering the sword, he himself would be able to bring out 80- 100 with any sword,
So it speeds up him having to master his overall haki, which he wouldn’t be able to do with any other sword that isn’t As Special as Enma. That is my understanding of how this is working out for Zoro right now.
If Zoro could hit at 100 with all his power, now he can hit 120 with Enma and more drawn out haki power.

Same way luffy could hit say again 100 before with G4, now with G4 + Advanced BH, he should be able to do more then 120.

(Number increase isn’t meant to be accurate it’s just a representation of damage output).
The last bit is obviously how I see it aka headcanon, so don’t try spin it on me

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 20, 2020)

Even letting aside the haki thing, Enma has probably a x2 in cutting power compared to even Shisui (but -50 or so in defense).
They have the same grade, but not the same stats.


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## Conxc (Mar 20, 2020)

@MasterBeast I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree . I see where you’re coming from, I just think the way it was explained in the manga is still being misinterpreted. Whether by you or me, we’ll just have to wait and see.


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## Conxc (Mar 20, 2020)

Ren. said:


> It is mostly by you!
> But what ever Zoro did not get a PU he is the same for you bye!


Please. You’re a fan.


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## Ren. (Mar 20, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Please. You’re a fan.


*You’re a salty one for sure.*

Of what ... of the WG forum logic?

Pretty please, been there done that, you are similar to all the rest.

I usally don't agree with @MasterBeast but these is entartaining and I gave you too much attention!


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## Conxc (Mar 20, 2020)

Ren. said:


> *You’re a salty one for sure.*
> 
> Of what ... of the WG forum logic?
> 
> ...


That’s what fans do. Sorry if I haven’t been paying you much mind here kiddo. I’m here now.


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## Beast (Mar 20, 2020)

Conxc said:


> @MasterBeast I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree . I see where you’re coming from, I just think the way it was explained in the manga is still being misinterpreted. Whether by you or me, we’ll just have to wait and see.


I swear to god, it’s nothing more then Oda being Oda. It’s true this isn’t a battle shounen as much as we all want it to be, I am holding on to some fake hope that he will more clear in what he draws but everything is left pretty much vague or with little to none detailed info.



Ren. said:


> I usally don't agree with @MasterBeast!


Haha you’re definitely not the first nor the last to say that lol. 
Everyone on this forum has disagreed with me on some points, they should know now, in advanced that if youre not on my side, you’re on the wrong side.  

Even @Conxc


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 21, 2020)

So none knows why Zoro is planning to fight using a dumbbell of an sword in a battle?

He could use Enma to train and an sword that isn't a power down to battle, as he himself has stated they have more than enough weapons. Yet he has decided to fight using an sword that is power down.

Maybe he is stupid.


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## Dunno (Mar 21, 2020)

Zuhaitz said:


> So none knows why Zoro is planning to fight using a dumbbell of an sword in a battle?
> 
> He could use Enma to train and an sword that isn't a power down to battle, as he himself has stated they have more than enough weapons. Yet he has decided to fight using an sword that is power down.
> 
> Maybe he is stupid.


What sword does Zoro have that is of higher quality than Enma? How many Saijo o Wazamono does he have that he could replace it with? How many o Wazamono does he have?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Mar 21, 2020)

Zuhaitz said:


> So none knows why Zoro is planning to fight using a dumbbell of an sword in a battle?
> 
> He could use Enma to train and an sword that isn't a power down to battle, as he himself has stated they have more than enough weapons. Yet he has decided to fight using an sword that is power down.
> 
> Maybe he is stupid.


Come on man. You can do it. Squeeze out even just a smidgeon of critical thinking and reading comp from that tiny little brain of yours. I’d like to say you’re almost there but...I don’t like to lie.

@Dunno He’s a lost cause. You’re just wasting your time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## HaxHax (Mar 21, 2020)

Enema has provided a lot of hilarity. Because zoro stans wanted to hype up Enema as this amazing new sword, but at the same time not admit that it was in any way a power-up.

Lot of fun reading the mental gymnastics that ensued.


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## Conxc (Mar 21, 2020)

^^Another one.


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 21, 2020)

Dunno said:


> What sword does Zoro have that is of higher quality than Enma? How many Saijo o Wazamono does he have that he could replace it with? How many o Wazamono does he have?


Shusui, he could have told everyone that he would return the sword once the battle with Kaidou is over.

But for some reasons he prefers to carry Enma instead of Shushui... maybe he is stupid.

He prefers to fight with a power down, he probably is stupid.


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Mar 21, 2020)

So...Zoro's never used as much Haki as was taken by Enma?





Zuhaitz said:


> Shusui, he could have told everyone that he would return the sword once the battle with Kaidou is over.
> 
> But for some reasons he prefers to carry Enma instead of Shushui... maybe he is stupid.
> 
> He prefers to fight with a power down, he probably is stupid.



Once he masters Enma it'll be the same as Wado Ichimonji. Then he'll make it black, which'll make it on the same level as Shusui. The difference is that he'll have better Haki (or whatever), so the swords are basically a wash.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 21, 2020)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> Once he masters Enma it'll be the same as Wado Ichimonji. Then he'll make it black, which'll make it on the same level as Shusui. The difference is that he'll have better Haki (or whatever), so the swords are basically a wash.



So all the wado Ichimonjis are the same.... It doesn't matter who made them or the material, size, etc. They are all exactly the same....

Once Zoro masters it, ok. But now he is going to fight in a war with an sword that it's a power down. Is he stupid? Why not bring Shushui to the war and then after the war ends keep training with Enma?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 21, 2020)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> So...Zoro's never used as much Haki as was taken by Enma?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Reading comprehension of people I swear.

If Enma doesn't take out more haki then the body is use to then why the fuck would Zoros arm shrivel up?

Why would the blacksmith say a NORMAL SWORDSMEN WOULD BE A MERE HUSK RIGHT NOW. If all Enma did was make you use haki against your will those words make no sense? If all Enma does is make you use 50 percent of your haki when all you wanted to use was 5 percent, it wouldent make your body shrivel up like a mummy.

That's clearly not all Enma does. Shits not hard.


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Mar 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Reading comprehension of people I swear.
> 
> If Enma doesn't take out more haki then the body is use to then why the fuck would Zoros arm shrivel up?
> 
> ...



So did Zoro's haki reserves deplete since Dressrosa? Or is it that Zoro supplied enough Haki to cut the tree, but Enma took enough to cut the coast, and that discrepancy is what caused Zoro's arm to shrivel? 

And Hitetsu said a normal swordsman would be a mere husk to hype both Zoro and Oden, obviously. This is before we saw how strong Oden really was.



Zuhaitz said:


> So all the wado Ichimonjis are the same.... It doesn't matter who made them or the material, size, etc. They are all exactly the same....
> 
> Once Zoro masters it, ok. But now he is going to fight in a war with an sword that it's a power down. Is he stupid? Why not bring Shushui to the war and then after the war ends keep training with Enma?



Because Zoro's gonna make Enma black, something a badass like Oden couldn't do. This'll make him grow as a swordsman instead of him relying on Ryuma's legacy.

And Wado and Enma were made by the same dude...so they're probably the most similar of all the swords Zoro has used in the manga.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 21, 2020)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> So did Zoro's haki reserves deplete since Dressrosa? Or is it that Zoro supplied enough Haki to cut the tree, but Enma took enough to cut the coast, and that discrepancy is what caused Zoro's arm to shrivel?
> 
> And Hitetsu said a normal swordsman would be a mere husk to hype both Zoro and Oden, obviously. This is before we saw how strong Oden really was.
> 
> ...



Zoro using Max haki output wouldn't turn his arm into a husk. 

Enma absorbs Zoros haki passed his normal limits. Hence the shriveling. Zoro wanting to use 5 percent and instead Zoro using 50 percent would not make his arm shrivel up that makes no sense at all.


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 21, 2020)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> Because Zoro's gonna make Enma black, something a badass like Oden couldn't do. This'll make him grow as a swordsman instead of him relying on Ryuma's legacy.



And so he was to war with a power down. Is he stupid or something? Why not do what you say after the fight? Does he hate his nakamas and that's why he is putting their lives on danger?


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## TheWiggian (Mar 21, 2020)

@Kinjin @Etherborn @Soca 

Can you guys threadban @Zuhaitz ? 

He dragged the thread into a complete off-topic direction and delete all his bait? Thanks in advance.


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 21, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> @Kinjin @Etherborn @Soca
> 
> Can you guys threadban @Zuhaitz ?
> 
> He dragged the thread into a complete off-topic direction and delete all his bait? Thanks in advance.


Really? Enma being or not a power up is not relevant topic in a thread in which one of the conditions is if we have to consider Enma a power up or not?


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## Dunno (Mar 21, 2020)

Zuhaitz said:


> Shusui, he could have told everyone that he would return the sword once the battle with Kaidou is over.
> 
> But for some reasons he prefers to carry Enma instead of Shushui... maybe he is stupid.
> 
> He prefers to fight with a power down, he probably is stupid.


He could have also used Shusui instead of his Sandai Kitetsu, since it's a superior sword. But I guess he is stupid enough to fight with a weaker sword, right? The argument doesn't hold.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Mar 21, 2020)

Y’all don’t even *try *and make sense of what you type. The manga clearly states that the sword uses more Haki than the user *intends* not than they are *capable *of. We’ve seen what Haki exhaustion looks like. Luffy has exhausted his Haki reserves twice and he couldn’t use Haki at all after both times until it came back. Zoro not only could still use Haki, but he had control of it to the point where he could retract it from the sword. If the amount of Haki that was taken from him was more than he could as used to handling, he would not be able to control it to the point where he could do that. Common sense. Dance around that.


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## Conxc (Mar 21, 2020)

Funny part is we’ve heard of the quality of one’s Haki and Haki *pool *limitations. Never have we heard of a character being restricted to *how much *Haki out of their overall Haki pool they could use. *Never *but for the sake of a dying argument y’all are ok with inventing mechanics on the spot. Fuck outta here.


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## TheWiggian (Mar 21, 2020)

Zuhaitz said:


> Really? Enma being or not a power up is not relevant topic in a thread in which one of the conditions is if we have to consider Enma a power up or not?



There's nothing to discuss. Enma is a power-up that Zoro haven't mastered to wield yet same way he had trouble with the Kitetsu in Whiskey Peak or Shusui in Thriller Bark. The only thing Enma has currently is hype in terms of ot being a power-up:


Hype of immense firepower, hurting Kaido
Mastering of armament Haki
Parallel to Oden and Zoro being the only one that can master it to a much higher degree than Oden ever could

We haven’t seen it in action against an opponent so it's speculation at this point. The only thing we know currently is that it has a big drawback that Zoro is trying to overcome.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Thdyingbreed (Mar 21, 2020)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> Once he masters Enma it'll be the same as Wado Ichimonji. Then he'll make it black, which'll make it on the same level as Shusui. The difference is that he'll have better Haki (or whatever), so the swords are basically a wash.


Enma is already stronger then the Wado by miles not all blades of the same rank are created equal and Enma is already on par with Shusui without being it being a black blade itself and it’s already been implied when it becomes black it’s rank will raise to a supreme grade.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 21, 2020)

_The difference is that Zoro put enough physical strength to cut a three, but Enma pulled a great amount of his Haki reserves to make a much larger cut.

Zoro can not normally use that much Haki with his attacks, but hes using a lot more physical strength in his big three swords techniques. Thats why he obtains similar/better results without drying up his body of Haki compared to his first Enma feat.

Enma will allow Zoro to eventually combine much greater Haki use with techniques that require significant strength, without the downside of being as taxing on his body to pull out said Haki reserves as it initially was._


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 21, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Y’all don’t even *try *and make sense of what you type. The manga clearly states that the sword uses more Haki than the user *intends* not than they are *capable *of. We’ve seen what Haki exhaustion looks like. Luffy has exhausted his Haki reserves twice and he couldn’t use Haki at all after both times until it came back. Zoro not only could still use Haki, but he had control of it to the point where he could retract it from the sword. If the amount of Haki that was taken from him was more than he could as used to handling, he would not be able to control it to the point where he could do that. Common sense. Dance around that.



Just gonna copy and paste. 

Zoro using Max haki output wouldn't turn his arm a husk.

Enma absorbs Zoros haki passed his normal limits. Hence the shriveling. Zoro wanting to use 5 percent and instead Zoro using 50 percent would not make his arm shrivel up that makes no sense at all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Mar 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Just gonna copy and paste.
> 
> Zoro using Max haki output wouldn't turn his arm a husk.
> 
> Enma absorbs Zoros haki passed his normal limits. Hence the shriveling. Zoro wanting to use 5 percent and instead Zoro using 50 percent would not make his arm shrivel up that makes no sense at all.


I mean... you’re *still *wrong. Doesn’t matter how many times you say it. Y’all literally fabricated a mechanic of CoA for this argument. Show me where the manga states that Haki users have a limit of use even *within* their overall Haki reserve.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 21, 2020)

Conxc said:


> I mean... you’re *still *wrong. Doesn’t matter how many times you say it. Y’all literally fabricated a mechanic of CoA for this argument. Show me where the manga states that Haki users have a limit of use even *within* their overall Haki reserve.



Show me a panel of a haki user using there entire haki reserves in one attack or defensive maneuver?

New things about haki are put into the manga all the time. The arguement of oda didn't say haki works that way is a weak arguement. Odas not obligated to spoon feed you everything or explain everything at once.

Also you saying I'm wrong isnt a arguement. Give me a actual counter arguement to what I just said and I will gladly concede.


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## Conxc (Mar 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Show me a panel of a haki user using there entire haki reserves in one attack or defensive maneuver?
> 
> New things about haki are put into the manga all the time. The arguement of oda didn't say haki works that way is a weak arguement. Odas not obligated to spoon feed you everything or explain everything at once.
> 
> Also you saying I'm wrong isnt a arguement. Give me a actual counter arguement to what I just said and I will gladly concede.


*You’re *the one claiming that this mechanic exists. The burden of proof is on *you *to show that. 

Yes, and that isn’t something that has been added. Not by Oda at least. By y’all here on NF? Sure. 

Re-read anything I’ve said in this thread and your point is moot and made up. You still won’t concede though.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 21, 2020)

Conxc said:


> *You’re *the one claiming that this mechanic exists. The burden of proof is on *you *to show that.
> 
> Yes, and that isn’t something that has been added. Not by Oda at least. By y’all here on NF? Sure.
> 
> Re-read anything I’ve said in this thread and your point is moot and made up. You still won’t concede though.



My proof is already in the panels. I didn't come up with this explanation based on a dream I had. It's based on the manga. Again everything doesn't have to be spoon fed to you. 

Already read everything you said and it for dame sure doesn't explain why enma turns your body into a mummy.


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## Conxc (Mar 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> My proof is already in the panels. I didn't come up with this explanation based on a dream I had. It's based on the manga. Again everything doesn't have to be spoon fed to you.
> 
> Already read everything you said and it for dame sure doesn't explain why enma turns your body into a mummy.


The panels don’t support what you’re saying or you’d be able to show what you’re saying. You’ve been unable to do that.

You’re point is again, debunked by Zoro showing the ability to control the amount of Haki that you’re claiming he’s never exerted before. How is that possible if it’s unfamiliar to him? Again, you pulled that mechanic straight out of your ass.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 21, 2020)

Conxc said:


> The panels don’t support what you’re saying or you’d be able to show what you’re saying. You’ve been unable to do that.
> 
> You’re point is again, debunked by Zoro showing the ability to control the amount of Haki that you’re claiming he’s never exerted before. How is that possible if it’s unfamiliar to him? Again, you pulled that mechanic straight out of your ass.



The panels have already been posted in this thread earlier. 

Control what? Zoro took his haki back from Enma not sure how that disproves what I stated? 

Still waiting for a actual explanation as to why Enma turns people into mummy's you haven't given me one yet?


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## Conxc (Mar 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> The panels have already been posted in this thread earlier.
> 
> Control what? Zoro took his haki back from Enma not sure how that disproves what I stated?
> 
> Still waiting for a actual explanation as to why Enma turns people into mummy's you haven't given me one yet?


Yeah, and none of them support your fanfic.

That...shows control. That *is *control. Being able to imbue something with Haki and being able to retract that Haki are signs of control. The basis of your argument is that Enma sapped Zoro for more Haki than he is *capable *of, which is completely ignoring where the manga said more than *intended*. If he is unable to wield or control that amount of Haki, how was he effortlessly able to retract that amount of Haki from Enma? Answer that.

I’m not Oda, and you refuse to accept what the manga told you. The facts don’t support your claim.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 21, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Yeah, and none of them support your fanfic.



Obviously I disagree. Supports it just fine which is why I'm making it  



> That...shows control. That *is *control. Being able to imbue something with Haki and being able to retract that Haki are signs of control


.

If he had control his arm would of never been mummified in the first place.

If he had control he wouldn't need to train with Enma to stop it from sucking out his haki.

But that's not the case is it. He doesn't have control which is why he is training in the first place. Enma doesn't passively take your haki it does it when you try and use a attack. Taking back the haki Enma already sucked out and being able to use your haki effectively with Enma in a fight are two completely different things. 



> The basis of your argument is that Enma sapped Zoro for more Haki than he is *capable*



Yes this is shown by his mummified arm.

If all Enma did was make Zoro use 50 percent of his haki output instead of a intended 5 percent he would not be turned into a mummy. He would just be shocked as his attack was stronger then he thought it would be.



> which is completely ignoring where the manga said more than *intended*. If he is unable to wield or control that amount of Haki, how was he effortlessly able to retract that amount of Haki from Enma? Answer that.



Enma does both. It forcibly drains your haki against your will, and at the same time outputs more haki then you normally would be able to.

If it didn't do both of these things Zoros training would be a waste of time. What good does training with Enma do Zoro if all Enma does is fuck up how much haki Zoro wants to put in a attack? He would be better off doing what Luffy is doing with his haki training.



> I’m not Oda, and you refuse to accept what the manga told you. The facts don’t support your claim.



So you don't have a explanation for why Enma turns people into mummy's?

Until you come up with something I'm gonna stick with my version then


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## Conxc (Mar 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Obviously I disagree. Supports it just fine which is why I'm making it


Lmao you’re delusional.

.

If he had control his arm would of never been mummified in the first place.

If he had control he wouldn't need to train with Enma to stop it from sucking out his haki.

But that's not the case is it. He doesn't have control which is why he is training in the first place.[/quote]So now according to you, there’s no differing levels when it comes to control? Like beginner, adept, master? Doesn’t exist because you said so? He might not be a Haki *master *but if you’re going to say that being able to imbue things with Haki and retract Haki from objects isn’t Haki control, then...wow. Didn’t really think that one through.

Enma is going to help him *further *his Haki control, possibly facilitating awakening advanced CoA for him, hence why he said “so by the time I’m used to this I’ll be stronger.”





> Yes this is shown by his mummified arm.
> 
> If all Enma did was make Zoro use 50 percent of his haki output instead of a intended 5 percent he would not be turned into a mummy. He would just be shocked as his attack was stronger then he thought it would be.


You must think that each body part has a Haki reserve. If he was sucked of more Haki than he was capable of, then he’d have been in the same shape as Luffy when he exhausted (used all of) his Haki. *That’s *what Haki exhaustion looks like. Not a single limb being “mummified.” Keep up with the fanfic though.





> Enma does both. It forcibly drains your haki against your will, and at the same time outputs more haki then you normally would be able to.


Nope. The first thing is true. The second thing is made up. Show me where the second thing is stated.



> If it didn't do both of these things Zoros training would be a waste of time. What good does training with Enma do Zoro if all Enma does is fuck up how much haki Zoro wants to put in a attack? He would be better off doing what Luffy is doing with his haki training.


Incorrect. It wouldn’t be useless because by the time he’s mastered Enma he’d master his CoA. That is the requirement to use Enma effectively. Mastering your own Haki control so that it can’t just siphon from you. How is that pointless?





> So you don't have a explanation for why Enma turns people into mummy's?
> 
> Until you come up with something I'm gonna stick with my version then


Hey, you can continue being wrong if you want.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 21, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Lmao you’re delusional.



If you say so.






> So now according to you, there’s no differing levels when it comes to control? Like beginner, adept, master?



There is, not really relevant to the topic at hand as Zoro is a beginner in terms of controlling Enma as he just got it.



> Doesn’t exist because you said so? He might not be a Haki *master *but if you’re going to say that being able to imbue things with Haki and retract Haki from objects isn’t Haki control, then...wow.



Lmao I didnt say zoro has zero haki control, I was referring to his control over Enma. 

What I'm saying is Enma forcibly makes Zoro use more haki then he would be able to normally.

Which is why he is training in the first place. Once he masters Enma he will be able to output the same if not greater amounts of haki then what Enma makes him do. With Zero side effects.




> Enma is going to help him *further *his Haki control, possibly facilitating awakening advanced CoA for him, hence why he said “so by the time I’m used to this I’ll be stronger.”



He could do that without Enma just like Luffy is if that's the case.

So what benefits is Enma giving Zoro actually? A convenient training tool so he can get the hang of haki control quicker unlike luffy who's just training the old fashion way? Yea sure.





> You must think that each body part has a Haki reserve.



Could be but I don't really hold a opinion either way, not something that really matters in one piece.




> If he was sucked of more Haki than he was capable of, then he’d have been in the same shape as Luffy when he exhausted (used all of) his Haki


.
*
Haki output=/=Exhuastion 
*


> *That’s *what Haki exhaustion looks like. Not a single limb being “mummified.” Keep up with the fanfic though.



I Never said Enma exhausted his haki reserves.



> Nope. The first thing is true. The second thing is made up. Show me where the second thing is stated.



It's not stated it is shown by his mummified arm.



> Incorrect. It wouldn’t be useless because by the time he’s mastered Enma he’d master his CoA. That is the requirement to use Enma effectively. Mastering your own Haki control so that it can’t just siphon from you. How is that pointless?



Or don't use a haki draining sword that offers no benefits and just use a different sword?

If Enma only does what you say it does Zoro is retarded. He could of just trained his haki the old fashion way and grabbed Odens other sword which quite possibly doesn't have some curse that fucks up your haki with no upside.





> Hey, you can continue being wrong if you want.



Same to you buddy


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## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 21, 2020)

_S1: Sanji (only RS restricted) vs Zoro (only Enma restricted)?

Zoro wins if he has three swords.

S2: RS Sanji (unrestricted) vs Zoro (only Enma restricted)?

Taking the latest anime episode as canon, it's impossible to tell who would win and with what difficulty, especially if you allow Zoro to keep the growth he got from training with Enma. Too much uncertainty either way, as Sanji for now loses the hype of apparently casually one shoting a Flying Six.

S3: RS Sanji (unrestricted) vs Zoro (unrestricted)?

Zoro at his best should always at least edge out Sanji at his best, especially as they are now going into their end of the arc fights._

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Mar 21, 2020)

Of course there is limitations on haki use, the limitations are dependent on your mastery over your haki. 

There is a reason why luffy could only learn the basics in a year and half FIRST and now, we are venturing into advanced haki types. 

So I very much doubt that Zoro has complete control over his BH, he is still an amateur like all his buddies, Enma already helped him tap into a level he had not before, which caused his arm to shrivel, after mastering it, his mastery over his haki will only grow and he will reach advanced levels a lot faster then he would if he kept Shusui or lesser sword instead of Enma, so it is in fact a power up no matter how you bend it.


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## lastkiller (Mar 22, 2020)

Enma Zoro feats not enough for battledome right now ...people will say he cut the cliff....but he cut a fucking mountain like pica in Dr ...so that feat is not good enough....also the point was not the “cliff cutting “...the point was that the sword did not cut the target (the tree)....like a naughty sword


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## Ren. (Mar 22, 2020)

@Donquixote Doflamingo  and @MasterBeast 

Welcome to my world and the fight vs delusion.
I am going to:


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## Conxc (Mar 22, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Of course there is limitations on haki use, the limitations are dependent on your mastery over your haki.
> 
> There is a reason why luffy could only learn the basics in a year and half FIRST and now, we are venturing into advanced haki types.
> 
> So I very much doubt that Zoro has complete control over his BH, he is still an amateur like all his buddies, Enma already *helped him tap into a level he had not before, which caused his arm to shrivel*, after mastering it, his mastery over his haki will only grow and he will reach advanced levels a lot faster then he would if he kept Shusui or lesser sword instead of Enma, so it is in fact a power up no matter how you bend it.


Yes, and those limitations are based on the quality of your Haki and how much Haki you can use in total. There has never been any kind of restriction *within *a character’s overall Haki pool. That isn’t consistent with anything we know about Haki and has never been stated or alluded to be a mechanic of CoA. You can increase the *quality *of your Haki, or your Haki pool overall, which leads to longer time uses for G4 for example, but that’s all we know.

Yes, because he was only taught the basics in the first place. Like you said earlier, he was a beginner so now he’s learning new applications for Haki through the NW and increasing his Haki pool and quality. What does that have to do with there being a limitation within one’s overall Haki pool, or in other words, a limitation within what is already a limitation?

Of course he doesn’t, that’s why Enma sapped him of his Haki in the first place. He doesn’t have complete control over it. That’s why the perfect way to master controlling it is by taking a sword that saps him of more Haki than he intends per attack.

@ Bold: Ahh, I see how you’re looking at it. It seems like you’re saying that if before Enma Zoro was say, beginner tier, that the arm shriveling caused him to break through to adept? 


Ren. said:


> @Donquixote Doflamingo  and @MasterBeast
> 
> Welcome to my world and the fight vs delusion.
> I am going to:


Still contributing nothing. You seem to want friends really bad.


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## Ren. (Mar 22, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Still contributing nothing. You seem to want friends really bad.


You are debating with some of them


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## Beast (Mar 22, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Yes, and those limitations are based on the quality of your Haki and how much Haki you can use in total. There has never been any kind of restriction *within *a character’s overall Haki pool. That isn’t consistent with anything we know about Haki and has never been stated or alluded to be a mechanic of CoA. You can increase the *quality *of your Haki, or your Haki pool overall, which leads to longer time uses for G4 for example, but that’s all we know.
> 
> Yes, because he was only taught the basics in the first place. Like you said earlier, he was a beginner so now he’s learning new applications for Haki through the NW and increasing his Haki pool and quality. What does that have to do with there being a limitation within one’s overall Haki pool, or in other words, a limitation within what is already a limitation?
> 
> ...


It doesn’t need to be clear cut but at the very least yes, something along those lines. 
Enma Zoros power up is a keen to Ussop or the M3 unlocking haki, rather then the raid suit you are so against, but then again, luffy is getting another power up in advanced BH and he need to train to unlock it and use it, while Zoro will have the benefit of having Enma forcefully take it out of him aka unlock an advance level of haki. 

Not mention that it is a higher base grade of  then Shusui as well, so that only speaks of its quality, even in that regard it’s still a typical power up just not Ashura level of course.


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## Conxc (Mar 22, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> It doesn’t need to be clear cut but at the very least yes, something along those lines.
> Enma Zoros power up is a keen to Ussop or the M3 unlocking haki, rather then the raid suit you are so against, but then again, luffy is getting another power up in advanced BH and he need to train to unlock it and use it, while Zoro will have the benefit of having Enma forcefully take it out of him aka unlock an advance level of haki.
> 
> Not mention that it is a higher base grade of  then Shusui as well, so that only speaks of its quality, even in that regard it’s still a typical power up just not Ashura level of course.


I don’t necessarily agree but I do see your line of thought.

I agree but IMO Shusui being the same grade (thanks to permanent hardening) as Enma makes it a better sword for one without the time to master it. For example against Oars if Zoro was given Enma instead of Shusui he’d have been fucked whereas Shusui was instantly able to be of use to him. Of course Enma is better when mastered. It forces the wielder to pass their limits and when blackened permanently it jumps to Supreme Grade.


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## Zoro20 (Mar 23, 2020)

Zoro high diffs for S1 AND S3
and extreme diff for S2


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## Lyren (Mar 24, 2020)

Zoro always wins against Sanji no matter how you look at it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 24, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Zoro always wins against Sanji no matter how you look at it


Except in the bounty.


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Mar 24, 2020)

Zuhaitz said:


> Except in the bounty.



Zoro's bounty has been higher for like 95% of the series. And it'll be higher than Sanji's again after Wano.

It's been used for a gag, after this arc things will go back to normal...except Sanji will probably keep the third highest bounty. Instead of the 4th highest, like he has for most of the series.

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## Beast (Mar 24, 2020)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> Zoro's bounty has been higher for like 95% of the series. And it'll be higher than Sanji's again after Wano.
> 
> It's been used for a gag, after this arc things will go back to normal...except Sanji will probably keep the third highest bounty. Instead of the 4th highest, like he has for most of the series.


They will most likely get the same bounty at the very worst.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 24, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> They will most likely get the same bounty at the very worst.



Chances of Sanji getting trolled in Wano in terms of fights is a lot higher then Zoro. 


Zoro also has a high chance of getting partial credit for taking out kaidou. Which will give him a extra boost vs whatever Sanji does.

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## Zuhaitz (Mar 25, 2020)

And yet Zoro had to use Enma when Sanji reminded him who had the highest bounty.


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Mar 25, 2020)

Zuhaitz said:


> And yet Zoro had to use Enma when Sanji reminded him who had the highest bounty.



Zoro was just putting the fear of god into him. After all, Sanji was shitting his pants when he saw Zoro cut the cliff.


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 25, 2020)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> Zoro was just putting the fear of god into him. After all, Sanji was shitting his pants when he saw Zoro cut the cliff.


And so to put the fear of god he used his most powerful power up, Enma.


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## Beast (Mar 25, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Chances of Sanji getting trolled in Wano in terms of fights is a lot higher then Zoro.
> 
> 
> Zoro also has a high chance of getting partial credit for taking out kaidou. Which will give him a extra boost vs whatever Sanji does.


Sanji and Zoro will tag team King at the end.

Lanji is dead, there is only the prince left.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 25, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Sanji and Zoro will tag team King at the end.
> 
> *Lanji is dead, *there is only the prince left.



I hope so

Reactions: Like 1


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## BigDKaios (Mar 27, 2020)

Sanji
Sanji
 And
Sanji

Hawkins nails and Killer/Kamazou’s cut nearly murdered Zoro lol....just IMAGINE what a Kick from RS Sanji would do to moss boi


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 27, 2020)

BigDKaios said:


> Hawkins nails and Killer/Kamazou’s cut nearly murdered Zoro lol....just IMAGINE what a Kick from RS Sanji would do to moss boi


I know youre trolling but really, people  seem to think that Sanji cannot seriously hurt Zoro or even land hits despite his speed and CoO advantage. 
Pretty sure Zoro would be wheezing and rolling if Sanji hits him.


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## Beast (Mar 28, 2020)

Dodging Katas bullet>>> anything Zoro has done. 

Zoro doesn’t have the feats to tag Sanji.... it’s just the way it is.


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## Dunno (Mar 28, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Dodging Katas bullet>>> anything Zoro has done.
> 
> Zoro doesn’t have the feats to tag Sanji.... it’s just the way it is.


Clashing equally with Fujitora >>> Dodging Katakuri's bullets.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Beast (Mar 28, 2020)

Dunno said:


> Clashing equally with Fujitora >>> Dodging Katakuri's bullets.


He never clashed equally with Fujitora. 

Maybe you think Daz clashed equally with Mihawk?


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## Dunno (Mar 28, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> He never clashed equally with Fujitora.
> 
> Maybe you think Daz clashed equally with Mihawk?


The second time he clased with Fujitora, neither combatant had any advantage. I agree that the first time was not an equal clash, but then again Zoro was taken by surprise that time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Mar 28, 2020)

Dunno said:


> The second time he clased with Fujitora, neither combatant had any advantage. I agree that the first time was not an equal clash, but then again Zoro was taken by surprise that time.


Second one had only one panel and was off screened, you know what was the same? 
Mihawk and Croc.


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## Dunno (Mar 28, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Second one had only one panel and was off screened, you know what was the same?
> Mihawk and Croc.


Sanji dodging Katakuri's bullets was also just one panel, you know what was the same? 
Buggy and Akainu.

Reactions: Like 2


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## HaxHax (Mar 29, 2020)

Dunno said:


> Clashing equally with Fujitora >>> Dodging Katakuri's bullets.


lmao "equally"


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 29, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Dodging Katas bullet>>> anything Zoro has done.
> 
> Zoro doesn’t have the feats to tag Sanji.... it’s just the way it is.



Sanji dodged a JELLY BEAN that kat flicked with his finger.

Very impressive Sanji.

Very impressive.

Zoro pushed through Fujitoras gravity and pushed him back with a unnamed air slash, but nah dodging Katakuris jelly bean is more impressive


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## Mylesime (Mar 30, 2020)

Let's not act like katakuri wasn't going to destroy sanji in an extended exchange or like fujitora would not murder zoro if he wanted to in dressrosa....
  We could also use sanji's feat when he protected his sister with luffy against Big mom as a feat.
The fact of the matter is that while they're strong enough to more or less briefly clash with a top tier or react to a top tier they would have been destroyed in an extended fight. That's one of the reason they both got a power up. Zoro was put down by killer when he was distracted by gyukimaru, someone like jozu in a similar situation lost against kuzan and was able to survive against doflamingo again in a similar position at Marineford......
It's pretty clear where both of them were power wise, when we look at their feats and portrayal. Comparable to yonkou veterans/elite members like oven or perospero at worst or at best near the level of someone like snack, basically they were close in power with the other supernovas like urouge, capone, hawkins, etc.
With their power ups they will be for sure  yonkou commander level, closer to jack or king, the range is quite wide, depends on Oda's will.

  Regarding the topic. 
S1: Shisui is a formidable sword, comparable to Enma even tough Enma has more potential, and will be of superior grade once  changed into a  black blade by zoro. 
Zoro main power up in the short time will be an improved coa, and Enma incredible attack output, but still shisui is also an incredible sword who was immediatly efficient the first time zoro used it and seems superior to Enma 'defensively". So zoro mid/ diff in this case.

  S2: Sanji high diff.
Zoro isn't beating RS sanji without his improved PU , attack power mainly, when Oda basically erased the only area where Sanji was lacking compared to his peers (durability) with an armor and a shield....while improving his main strengths ,in mobility and evasiveness. I'm assuming that sanji can obviously use his fire with his suit like his siblings use their respective individual powers with theirs...

S3: Zoro high diff.
It's basically a comeback to the same old story in wano, feat wise and looking at their portrayal.
 They're the one dealing with the supernova mainly, sanji dealing/arguing often with capone, questioning regularly Law, being chased by Drake or hawkins. Zoro fighting against killer and hawkins.
Even their bounties are close, zoro is a supernova. Sanji was making headlines as a germa representative all over the world, being infamously depicted as one of the leaders of the attempted assassination of Big Mom alongside jinbei and Capone, luffy being the main culprits the ring leader.
They interrupted together o-toko execution.....

  Zoro is a tank, has better endurance, better Coa, better offensive power, lethality. Sanji struggled against Paige one or vergo, who were both very durable compared to their relative levels, he's going to have an hard time putting down zoro.
  Sanji is more mobile (geppo, and can fly with the suit), faster (was already blitzing people like oven or vergo, possesses added propulsor with the suit ), has better coo, and can be invisible, with an improved defense with his suit. Zoro is going to struggle to land clean hits (he had trouble to get to Pica in dressrosa) able to bypass sanji's overall defense with the suit.

  In short a battle of attrition, zoro mid diff in s1, high diff in s3. Sanji high diff in s2. Zoro with the added offensive output of Enma, and an improved coa mandatory to use effectively Enma should land enough strike and inflict enough damages to bypass the suit resistance and sanji endurance, but he's going to have an hard time catching him multiple times effectively.
Sanji would land more hits but i think that zoro would put him down before receiving enough damages to go down himself.


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## 3 Swords (May 15, 2020)

Holy shit this site is full of retards . Sanji will never beat zoro under any circumstances. Sanji fans have lost their minds . Will he bake a cake? Yes
Will he get no good feats on his own arc? Yes
Will he beat zoro? Hell no



MasterBeast said:


> Second one had only one panel and was off screened, you know what was the same?
> Mihawk and Croc.


Sanji is shit dude stop embarrassing yourself before oda humbles you once again


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## Turrin (May 15, 2020)

Sanji wind with Emma restricts and Zoro wins with it; his superior feat is mastering Emma


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## hajimehipo (May 16, 2020)

without Rs / enma : zoro 
With rs / no enma : sanji 
With both :  we still havent seen enough of zoro with enma .


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## Ludi (May 16, 2020)

Zoro
Sanji
No idea yet


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## Redline (May 16, 2020)

Around the usual..
320> 330
330> 320
325=325


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## Beast (May 16, 2020)

3 Swords said:


> Sanji is shit dude stop embarrassing yourself before oda humbles you once again


So, anyone with a lower bounty then Sanji... must be even shitter?


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## neonlight (May 16, 2020)

8 pages for this???
 Zoro all the way, only difficulty changes with each scenario.


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## Ekkologix (May 18, 2020)

I'd say 
S1 Zoro high diff
S2 Sanji high diff
S3 Zoro extreme diff


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## 3 Swords (May 19, 2020)

Go D. Usopp said:


> I'd say
> S1 Zoro high diff
> S2 Sanji high diff
> S3 Zoro extreme diff


Sanji under no circumstances beats zoro . Wrong


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## Extravlad (May 19, 2020)

Zoro wins every single time

S1 : Low diffs

S2 : Mid diffs

S3 : Low diffs



TheWiggian said:


> S3: RS Sanji high diff, possibly higher if he gets hit hard but still wins

Reactions: Like 2


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## Strobacaxi (May 19, 2020)

Well base Sanji got his leg broken by Vergo so his chances of beating Zoro are lolnope
RS Sanji was overpowered by P1 and the likelyhood of him fighting a calamity is slim at best, so his chances of beating no Enma Zoro are lolnope

3rd scenario is again, lolnope

Zoro soloes


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## Fel1x (May 19, 2020)

interesting observation by me:

why every time if Zoro is wanked it is really unnecessary and out of the blue? like some chapter even without Zoro and threads like "this chapter indirectly hyped Zoro" pops up and so on. but when there is an actual thread about Zoro, I don't even see tough Zoro wankers

wtf? Zoro fans should learn from Yonko or Admiral fans who are always ready to fight for the sake of their favs superiority


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## TheWiggian (May 19, 2020)

Extravlad said:


> Zoro wins every single time
> 
> S1 : Low diffs
> 
> ...



Learn how to read the op correctly


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## Beast (May 19, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Learn how to read correctly


Fixed for accuracy.


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## Redline (May 19, 2020)

3 Swords said:


> Sanji under no circumstances beats zoro . Wrong


Zoro can even see him , but he can feel danger otherwise he would feel so obseesd over remarking he is stronger....really strange oda let skip away the bounty gag , I suppose it will get back when Zoro got the highest again lol
Anyway...they are like akainou and aokiji
They could fight for days and noone would have the upper hand or rather they both would be they would keep on playing like katakuri did with Luffy


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## 3 Swords (May 19, 2020)

Redline said:


> Zoro can even see him , but he can feel danger otherwise he would feel so obseesd over remarking he is stronger....really strange oda let skip away the bounty gag , I suppose it will get back when Zoro got the highest again lol
> Anyway...they are like akainou and aokiji
> They could fight for days and noone would have the upper hand or rather they both would be they would keep on playing like katakuri did with Luffy


No Sanji is not zoros equal. They will not fight for days . Sanji cannot tank none of zoros attacks . Stop acting like snaji is work type of speedster he’s fast but not like people like hyping him up to be. Zoro lands one named attack eith haki and Sanji loses. Which will happen fast . Cut it out Sanji is not on zoro level


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## Strobacaxi (May 19, 2020)

Redline said:


> Zoro can even see him


Name one character Zoro failed to keep up with post TS
Zoro is very fast, which has been portrayed several times by having him and Luffy move at the exact same time and attack different enemies at the exact same time


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## Redline (May 19, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Name one character Zoro failed to keep up with post TS
> Zoro is very fast, which has been portrayed several times by having him and Luffy move at the exact same time and attack different enemies at the exact same time


Carrot! Lol


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## Redline (May 19, 2020)

3 Swords said:


> No Sanji is not zoros equal. They will not fight for days . Sanji cannot tank none of zoros attacks . Stop acting like snaji is work type of speedster he’s fast but not like people like hyping him up to be. Zoro lands one named attack eith haki and Sanji loses. Which will happen fast . Cut it out Sanji is not on zoro level


They are always been rivals to each other... 20 douriji is the difference or 10 million on bounty if you prefer
One  piece never changed


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## Strobacaxi (May 19, 2020)

Redline said:


> Carrot! Lol


I thought you were trolling in your last posts, but now I'm sure lol


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## Beast (May 19, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Name one character Zoro failed to keep up with post TS
> Zoro is very fast, which has been portrayed several times by having him and Luffy move at the exact same time and attack different enemies at the exact same time


Pica


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## HaxHax (May 19, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Name one character Zoro failed to keep up with post TS



Zoro couldn't even keep up with Sanji bodyswapped into Nami


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## Ekkologix (May 19, 2020)

3 Swords said:


> Sanji under no circumstances beats zoro . Wrong



hes saying ONLY based on current feats lol. Basically a 50% Zoro vs Sanji, thats how Sanji wins


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## Extravlad (May 19, 2020)

Current Zoro is arguably stronger than Sanji will EVER BE.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fel1x (May 19, 2020)

Extravlad said:


> Current Zoro is arguably stronger than Sanji will EVER BE.


I don't think even current Luffy is stronger than EoS Sanji.


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## Strobacaxi (May 19, 2020)

Extravlad said:


> Current Zoro is arguably stronger than Sanji will EVER BE.


Nah Sanji is probably going to end up fighting Kizaru EOS, so he's gonna be stronger than Luffy currently is.


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## 3 Swords (May 19, 2020)

Redline said:


> They are always been rivals to each other... 20 douriji is the difference or 10 million on bounty if you prefer
> One  piece never changed


The doruki of their opponets has nothing to do with their strength. You want to get into doruki ? Fine ! It measured physical strength so kaku a swordsman is physically stronger then jabra a brawler and that’s it. Sanji used 3 Dj attacks to take out jabura while zoro landed one ashura hit to defeat kaku . And that’s facts


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## Corax (May 19, 2020)

Redline said:


> They are always been rivals to each other... 20 douriji is the difference or 10 million on bounty if you prefer
> One  piece never changed


This was pre TS. Not saying that Zoro is much stronger now,but going by post TS portrayal he might end up stronger. May be high diff,but not extreme anymore.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Moldrew (May 19, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Name one character Zoro failed to keep up with post TS
> Zoro is very fast, which has been portrayed several times by having him and Luffy move at the exact same time and attack different enemies at the exact same time


Gazelleman. Oda said Sanji is faster than Luffy too.


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## 3 Swords (May 19, 2020)

Moldrew said:


> Gazelleman. Oda said Sanji is faster than Luffy too.


In a 50 yard foot race . Where brook was the fastest . Is brook faster then luffy to?


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## Moldrew (May 19, 2020)

3 Swords said:


> In a 50 yard foot race . Where brook was the fastest . Is brook faster then luffy to?


According to Oda, yes


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## Redline (May 19, 2020)

3 Swords said:


> The doruki of their opponets has nothing to do with their strength. You want to get into doruki ? Fine ! It measured physical strength so kaku a swordsman is physically stronger then jabra a brawler and that’s it. Sanji used 3 Dj attacks to take out jabura while zoro landed one ashura hit to defeat kaku . And that’s facts


I tell another fact ..a carnivorous Zoan is phisically stronger then an erbivore one ..fact not faps!



3 Swords said:


> In a 50 yard foot race . Where brook was the fastest . Is brook faster then luffy to?


Yes


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## Redline (May 19, 2020)

So what Zoro has been intend to be the one who will fight Fujitora... Not kizaru..speedster are a thing for Sanji alone


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## 3 Swords (May 19, 2020)

Redline said:


> So what Zoro has been intend to be the one who will fight Fujitora... Not kizaru..speedster are a thing for Sanji alone


Since when have Sanji fought any speedsters ? Kaku was the speedster of cp9 and zoro fought him. Sanji has not fought a single speedster . Sanji will never be able to beat a admiral . Oda makes him bake cakes and not get fights for years and now all of a sudden he’ll beat an admiral?


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## Extravlad (May 20, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Nah Sanji is probably going to end up fighting Kizaru EOS, so he's gonna be stronger than Luffy currently is.


Sanji is not fighting Kizaru 
That's fanfiction + toei's shitty opening.

Reactions: Like 2


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## maupp (May 21, 2020)

Since when people have people started wanking Sanji?


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## Zero (May 21, 2020)

Extravlad said:


> Sanji is not fighting Kizaru
> That's fanfiction + toei's shitty opening.


It seem like cool matchup. 



maupp said:


> Since when people have people started wanking Sanji?


Since he got Raid Suit i think


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## TheWiggian (May 21, 2020)

maupp said:


> Since when people have people started wanking Sanji?



There's no wank, most didn't even read the OP especially Zoro fans that can't even think straight.


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## Dunno (May 22, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> interesting observation by me:
> 
> why every time if Zoro is wanked it is really unnecessary and out of the blue? like some chapter even without Zoro and threads like "this chapter indirectly hyped Zoro" pops up and so on. but when there is an actual thread about Zoro, I don't even see tough Zoro wankers
> 
> wtf? Zoro fans should learn from Yonko or Admiral fans who are always ready to fight for the sake of their favs superiority


The outcome of Sanji vs Zoro is too obvious. It's not worth arguing about.


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## Dunno (May 22, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> There's no wank, most didn't even read the OP especially Zoro fans that can't even think straight.


Nah, even going by current feats, Zoro wins. Sanji hasn't shown anything on par with Zoro's mountaincutter offensively, or Zoro's defense against Fujitora defensively.


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## TheWiggian (May 22, 2020)

Dunno said:


> Nah, even going by current feats, Zoro wins. Sanji hasn't shown anything on par with Zoro's mountaincutter offensively, or Zoro's defense against Fujitora defensively.



He doesn't need mountain cutting power if Zoro can't tag him featswise.


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## Dunno (May 22, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> He doesn't need mountain cutting power if Zoro can't tag him featswise.


Sanji can't dodge Zoro featwise either. Before the RS, he couldn't keep up with Niji, and with the RS he was still tagged by Page One. Zoro has never had a problem reacting to people.


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## Mercurial (May 22, 2020)

Page One tagged Sanji.

Lol with Shi Shishi Sonson, or Ichidai Sanzen Daisen Sekai or Asura, Zoro cleaves Sanji in two halves without Raid Suit. With Raid Suit, he "just" defeats him.


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## TheWiggian (May 22, 2020)

Dunno said:


> Sanji can't dodge Zoro featwise either. Before the RS, he couldn't keep up with Niji, and with the RS he was still tagged by Page One.



He dodged faster characters than Zoro.


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## Moldrew (May 22, 2020)

Dunno said:


> Sanji can't dodge Zoro featwise either. Before the RS, he couldn't keep up with Niji, and with the RS he was still tagged by Page One.





Raikiri19 said:


> Page One tagged Sanji.
> 
> Lol with Shi Shishi Sonson, or Ichidai Sanzen Daisen Sekai or Asura, Zoro cleaves Sanji in two halves without Raid Suit. With Raid Suit, he "just" defeats him.


Sanji stood in place to block him. Base Sanji could dodge Drake.


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## Dunno (May 22, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> He dodged faster characters than Zoro.


Which ones? Page One doesn't have better speed feats than Zoro. Oven doesn't have better speed feats than Zoro. And Judge definitely doesn't have better speed feats than Zoro. I'm not saying Sanji won't be able to dodge any of Zoro's attacks, just that it's really strange to claim that he has the feats to support that Zoro would be unable to catch him.


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## Moldrew (May 22, 2020)

Dunno said:


> Which ones? Page One doesn't have better speed feats than Zoro. Oven doesn't have better speed feats than Zoro. And Judge definitely doesn't have better speed feats than Zoro. I'm not saying Sanji won't be able to dodge any of Zoro's attacks, just that it's really strange to claim that he has the feats to support that Zoro would be unable to catch him.


Judge dodged Perospero’s candy wave, as did all the Vinsmokes.
Sanji dodged an attack from a top Yonko Commander.
Sanji dodged Supernova X Drake. Twice.

Base Sanji, mind you.


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## Dunno (May 22, 2020)

Moldrew said:


> Judge dodged Perospero’s candy wave, as did all the Vinsmokes.
> Sanji dodged an attack from a top Yonko Commander.
> Sanji dodged Supernova X Drake. Twice.
> 
> Base Sanji, mind you.


And Zoro kept up with Denjiro's and Fujitora's speed.


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## Moldrew (May 22, 2020)

Dunno said:


> And Zoro kept up with Denjiro's and Fujitora's speed.


Denjiro who is a double agent that was very likely holding back. 
Fujitora who might as well be the Strawhat’s number one fan, and did nothing but play defense and put Zoro in a hole when he actually lifted a finger.


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## Mercurial (May 22, 2020)

Zoro blitzed and one shotted Killer. Come on. Killer is at the very least YC4 level. As nerfed as he was in Kamazo version, he was at least Veteran level. So Oven/Daifuku/Page One level. 

Not to mention that Zoro was nerfed as well.

Come on, pre skip kept up and tagged Kaku who had Rokushiki and destroyed him with Ashura, he also dodged Kuma attacks and tagged him. He always was able to fight and tag fast opponents. It's ridicolous to think that he would have trouble tagging Sanji, when RS Sanji is a full tier below him and No RS Sanji is at least two tiers below him.


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## Moldrew (May 22, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Zoro blitzed and one shotted Killer. Come on. Killer is at the very least YC4 level. As nerfed as he was in Kamazo version, he was at least Veteran level. So Oven/Daifuku/Page One level.



Zoro couldn’t even tag seated base Sanji with Enma when he got pissed at him.


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## Mercurial (May 23, 2020)

Sanji fans are just frustratred trolls. This answer certifies. Poor Sanji was shitting his pants just exactly as much as Nami was, when Zoro had his first casual try with Enma.


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## Beast (May 23, 2020)

Loooooool, who said Zoro kept up with Fuji?






Let me add another three


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## The Supreme Being (May 23, 2020)

Zoro doesn't even need Enma for a simp.


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## Moldrew (May 23, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Sanji fans are just frustratred trolls. This answer certifies. Poor Sanji was shitting his pants just exactly as much as Nami was, when Zoro had his first casual try with Enma.


I never downplayed Zoro’s attack power. Zoro still can’t tag RS Sanji. You’ve provided nothing to prove the contrary


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## maupp (May 23, 2020)

Has Sanji's "Speed" ever been an issue for any character of note? Has Oda ever drawn a fight involving Sanji against a decent fighter where his speed was causing his opponent problems? NO. So where does this nonsense about Sanji's speed being a problem for Zoro comes from 

Since One piece started Zoro has fought characters stronger than Sanji and they don't give him "speed" issues yet he'll somehow fail to tag Sanji due to some mythical speed his fanboys headcannon gave him 

Anyways Sanji's character has never been written nor will ever be written to be stronger than Zoro in any circumstances. It's just what it is.


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## Moldrew (May 23, 2020)

maupp said:


> Has Sanji's "Speed" ever been an issue for any character of note? Has Oda ever drawn a fight involving Sanji against a decent fighter where his speed was causing his opponent problems? NO. So where does this nonsense about Sanji's speed being a problem for Zoro comes from
> 
> Since One piece started Zoro has fought characters stronger than Sanji and they don't give him "speed" issues yet he'll somehow fail to tag Sanji due to some mythical speed his fanboys headcannon gave him
> 
> Anyways Sanji's character has never been written nor will ever be written to be stronger than Zoro in any circumstances. It's just what it is.


Zoro gets low diffed by a lot of characters by this logic.


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## Jin san (May 24, 2020)

Zoro is destined for greatness in wano. fighting a yc1, Kaido himself and foreshadowed to forge a black blade. While sanji is being set-up for his fated rematch with wage won. 

 Zoro mid diffs sanji and that's being generous

Reactions: Like 2


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## maupp (May 24, 2020)

Jin san said:


> Zoro is destined for greatness in wano. fighting a yc1, Kaido himself and foreshadowed to forge a black blade. While sanji is being set-up for his fated rematch with wage won.
> 
> Zoro mid diffs sanji and that's being generous


Preach. These Sanji stans be trippin

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sir Curlyhat (May 24, 2020)

Jin san said:


> Zoro is destined for greatness in wano. fighting a yc1, Kaido himself and foreshadowed to forge a black blade. While sanji is being set-up for his fated rematch with wage won.
> 
> Zoro mid diffs sanji and that's being generous



_So far he got nailed and cut wide open by two Headliners and passed out after fighting a broken Killer who was not using his weapons of choice. 

We see him dumbounfed when invisible attacks are aimed at him and he was unable to tag even base Sanji with Enma, so RS Sanji mid diffs him and that's being gnererous _


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## Jin san (May 24, 2020)

Zoro was still portrayed to be above a supernova by killing him twice and otsuru even claiming Hawkins was defeated by zoro. Zoro also low diffed another supernova while in a 2v1, missing his strongest blade and preferred swordstyle santoryu. On the other hand we got sanji that was tagged by Drake and slammed to the ground like the bug he is. Wonder where his exceptional CoO and speed which his fans love to baselessly hype up was in that instance 

The nails stuff don't even matter when even oden was hit by arrows from random fodder. It just goes to show how highly you think of Zoro though, to the point where taking shallow papercuts from someone as strong as Hawkins is considered huge  The grandmaster indeed

To your last point...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Beast (May 25, 2020)

Zoro killed Hawkins twice 

Marco must have died like 20 times in MF as well but that logic


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## Mercurial (May 25, 2020)

Oda clearly portrayed Zoro > Hawkins. Read the manga. It is not that hard.


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## Kroczilla (May 25, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Oda clearly portrayed Zoro > Hawkins. Read the manga. It is not that hard.


>Says zoro defeated hawkins
>With a scan that shows hawkins is just fine.


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## Mercurial (May 25, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> >Says zoro defeated hawkins
> >With a scan that shows hawkins is just fine.


Do you have the reading comprehension needed to understand what "portrayal" means? Oda made a character commenting what happened like that. What do you think is Oda's intent?

Also, come on... Zoro "killed" Hawkins, but he regenerates, or survives, thanks to his DF redirecting the damage on his underlings. Otherwise he would be fucked.


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## Beast (May 25, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Do you have the reading comprehension needed to understand what "portrayal" means? Oda made a character commenting what happened like that. What do you think is Oda's intent?
> 
> Also, come on... Zoro "killed" Hawkins, but he regenerates, or survives, thanks to his DF redirecting the damage on his underlings. Otherwise he would be fucked.


If Zoro didn’t have his swords he would be fucked. 

Stop it bruh, you make yourself look stupid. 

Zoro on panel didn’t beat Hawkins and was left bleeding, while Hawkins walked away comfy as fuck. 
Since when did people using their powers mean they are weaK, Marco can’t tank attacks without his DF, so what, is he now weak as well? 
Stop with these stupid claims, Zoro did not defeat Hawkins we SAW on panel that he didn’t, only one who took damage is Zoro as far as I remember and that could only mean one thing.


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## Kroczilla (May 25, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Do you have the reading comprehension needed to understand what "portrayal" means? Oda made a character commenting what happened like that. What do you think is Oda's intent?


????
A statement for a random chick does not necessarily equate to the facts. Especially when we clearly see hawkins is not only just fine but didnt pursue due to his card readings.




Raikiri19 said:


> Also, come on... Zoro "killed" Hawkins, but he regenerates, or survives, thanks to his DF redirecting the damage on his underlings. Otherwise he would be fucked.


And kizaru would have killed marco but for his DF. Redirecting damage is hawkins ability, not to mention he wasnt exactly fighting seriously at the time and hinted it was due to the cards he had pulled.


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## Kroczilla (May 25, 2020)

Also on the subject of "portrayal" @Raikiri19 , Oda also consistently portrays zoro and sanji as near if not outright equals. 
What do you think Oda's intent is, uhn?


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## neonlight (May 25, 2020)

From the portrayal, it was clear as day that ever since Zoro's casual flying slash took out one life doll, Hawkins was no match. The card,which Hawkins himself called good card, could only injure Zoro skin deep before it was destroyed by 2 sword style Zoro, that too on retreat. At the worst case, Zoro would high diff Hawkins (before Enma). But now, mid-diff is most likely.

The thing you gotta understand about Zoro is he has got high endurance to carry on despite all the accumulated injuries and high attack power to one shot anyone if his attack lands.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mercurial (May 25, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> Also on the subject of "portrayal" @Raikiri19 , Oda also consistently portrays zoro and sanji as near if not outright equals.
> What do you think Oda's intent is, uhn?



Lol. He never did so.He does the absolute opposite, he portrays Rufy > Zoro >> Sanji. Zoro is definitely closer to Rufy than Sanji is closer to Zoro.

- Zoro is created to be stronger than Sanji. Sanji is someone who needs to find a special sea: he can be strong, the stronger he is the better, but he does not need to be THAT strong to fulfill his character and make his established dream reality. While Zoro needs to be THAT strong, otherwise he would fail as a character. Because if he does not become stronger than Mihawk (who is Admiral/Yonko level), he would not fulfill his established dream.

- Zoro is the one and only Strawhat who Rufy willingly went looking for to ask him to enter the crew. And Rufy went to look for Zoro because of the latter's strength as a fighter. While Sanji was just someone he casually met during his travel.



- 99% times he has Zoro fighting the number 2 of the enemies, while Sanji fights the number 3. A lot of times, Zoro defeated people who Sanji coud NEVER defeat in the same arc, like Mr 1 at Alabasta (>>> Mr 2), Ohm at Skypiea and Kaku at Enies Lobby (>>> Jabra).

- Rufy and Zoro are the only two Strawhats who clearly used haki even pre time skip.

- Zoro is the number 2 of the future Pirate King, literally the living doppelganger of Rayleigh who was number 2 of the past Pirate King: scar, swordsman, even the same freaking clothes and the same freaking poses. Rufy has a different bond with Zoro compared than to the rest of the crew, even Sanji; just like Roger has a different bond with Rayleigh compared than to the rest of the crew, even Scopper Gabban.




- Zoro was made a Supernova, Sanji was not. Supernova are the pirates who move the world with their actions and will try to rise and challenge the Yonko to become Pirate King. While Zoro was made a Supernova, Sanji is only an underling. If Oda wanted, he could easily make the Twelwe Supernovas, instead of the Eleven, or slightly raise Sanji's bounty to 100 mln and over. But he chose to not do so. Why? Simply, because Zoro is stronger and more relevant.

- Zoro was trained by Mihawk. Sanji was trained by Ivankov. Mihawk >>>>>>>>>>>> Ivankov. Ivankov was casually one shotted by Akainu when the former tried to stop the latter at Marineford. Do you see Akainu defeating Mihawk by casually one shotting him?

- Zoro fought on par against Luffy for two entire chapters, and Luffy, as idiot as it was the reason, was dead serious. They clashed every time exactly on par, like Oni Giri vs Bazooka and so on. Why do you think Oda NEVER in 1000 chapters had a single real fight between Zoro and Sanji, in spite of this "rivality"? While he made Luffy and Zoro fight for even a nonsensical reason? The reason needed for Zoro and Sanji to fight would be very simple, like Zoro hurt a woman or Sanji finished Zoro's sake. And yet Oda never made them fight for real. Why? Because they fight only in gags. Just exactly like when Nami hits everyone. As a fighter, for real, Sanji is strong, but Zoro is far beyond him.





- There is not single issue or panel in 1000 chapter of this manga when someone doubts why Sanji is not the Strawhats captain, or why Sanji follows Rufy, or why Sanji is not a captain of his own crew. None. While you have so many panels where Oda makes people thinks that Zoro could be the captain or wondering why Zoro follows Rufy, or why Zoro is not a captain of his own crew.






- While Rufy is already KO, Zoro clearly steps on to single handedly fight the big boss 1 vs 1 and protect the crew. Kuma clearly looks for Zoro and selects him beyond all the rest.





- In presence of both Zoro and Sanji, the other Strawhats clearly feel that Zoro > Sanji. As they ask for Zoro's strength or for Zoro's charisma, instead than asking for both Zoro and Sanji. Sanji only rules when Zoro is not around. When both Zoro and Sanji are around, Zoro is clearly portrayed as on a superior level.




- While Sanji gets raped by Doflamingo, in the meantime Zoro is clashing with admiral Fujitora.  Not even once, but twice. Even gaining praise from the admiral.

- Zoro is undesputably referred as the first mate/vice captain and the 2nd strongest member of the Strawhats only behind Luffy. This happens in the manga and in the databooks. The first mate is 99% times a whole lot stronger than other crew members, especially in small crews like Roger's (Rayleigh >> Scopper > others) and Shanks' (Ben >> Lucky > others). Guess what, Rufy's crew follow the same exact structure as Roger's and Shanks' ones.

Reactions: Like 3


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## neonlight (May 25, 2020)

@Raikiri19 Excellent research! This post deserves a separate thread. Although I won't agree with it 100%, this is comprehensive.


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## Kroczilla (May 25, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Lol. He never did so.He does the absolute opposite, he portrays Rufy > Zoro >> Sanji.



Okay, lets see your arguments.



Raikiri19 said:


> Zoro is created to be stronger than Sanji. Sanji is someone who needs to find a special sea: he can be strong, the stronger he is the better, but he does not need to be THAT strong to fulfill his character and make his established dream reality. While Zoro needs to be THAT strong, otherwise he would fail as a character. Because if he does not become stronger than Mihawk (who is Admiral/Yonko level), he would not fulfill his established dream.



This literally doesnt make sense in light of what we know about the manga. The freaking WSM just wanted a family. The WSC just wants to die in battle. There's literally a pile load of strong characters who had no motivation that directly correlated with their strength.
But lets follow your logic. Sanji wants to find the all blue. Now obviously once he finds it, he's gonna build a resturant there. Now how the hell would a notorious pirate be able to operate a resturant in peace if he wasnt so strong that not even the navy would fuck with him lightly?




Raikiri19 said:


> Zoro is the one and only Strawhat who Rufy willingly went looking for to ask him to enter the crew. And Rufy went to look for Zoro because of the latter's strength as a fighter. While Sanji was just someone he casually met during his travel.


Zoro was the only one in the crew who had a known reputation. But as shown, sanji willing let himself get shackled to zef's dream. It was quite clear that if he has struck out on his own, he would have easily been an east blue top tier.




Raikiri19 said:


> 99% times he has Zoro fighting the number 2 of the enemies, while Sanji fights the number 3. A lot of times, Zoro defeated people who Sanji coud NEVER defeat in the same arc, like Mr 1 at Alabasta (>>> Mr 2), Ohm at Skypiea and Kaku at Enies Lobby (>>> Jabra).


The only one whom sanji MIGHT not defeat at the time would be Mr. 1 and even then:

Mr. 2 gave him trouble mostly due to his shapeshifting ability that allowed him exploit sanji's rule against hitting women. And even then
Sanji had a far easier time beating him than zoro had with Mr. 1. Heck iirc, zoro literally collapsed after whereas sanji walked away with a couple of broken bones at best.
Also lol at kaku >>>> jabra. First off the difference was literally just 20 douriki/two fodder marines, sanji fought jabra after having been tortured by kalifa and worst off, he defeated jabra far quicker than zoro beat kaku.
Also fyi, douriki did not take into account special skills such as strength of DF and techniques (jabra was the only cp9 member who could combine tekkai with his fighting style).



Raikiri19 said:


> Rufy and Zoro are the only two Strawhats who clearly used haki even pre time skip.



Are you referring to breath of all things? Has that been confirmed to be haki?



Raikiri19 said:


> Zoro is the number 2 of the future Pirate King, literally the living doppelganger of Rayleigh who was number 2 of the past Pirate King: scar, swordsman, even the same freaking clothes and the same freaking poses. Rufy has a different bond with Zoro compared than to the rest of the crew, even Sanji; just like Roger has a different bond with Rayleigh compared than to the rest of the crew, even Scopper Gabban.


Zoro is only similar to raileigh in the sense that they both used swords.

And luffy has a special bond with ussop (his actual best friend). Zoro and sanji are trusted in the sense that they are the only two in the crew who he seems to trust as much as himself in combat, even twice giving sanji permission to take on the enemy forces solo.




Raikiri19 said:


> Zoro was made a Supernova, Sanji was not. Supernova are the pirates who move the world with their actions and will try to rise and challenge the Yonko to become Pirate King. While Zoro was made a Supernova, Sanji is only an underling. If Oda wanted, he could easily make the Twelwe Supernovas, instead of the Eleven, or slightly raise Sanji's bounty to 100 mln and over. But he chose to not do so. Why? Simply, because Zoro is stronger and more relevant.


As i recall, Oda stated in an interview that he only thought of the supernova concept right before sabody arc. 



Raikiri19 said:


> Zoro was trained by Mihawk. Sanji was trained by Ivankov. Mihawk >>>>>>>>>>>> Ivankov. Ivankov was casually one shotted by Akainu when the former tried to stop the latter at Marineford. Do you see Akainu defeating Mihawk by casually one shotting him?


I mean we are talking of the same mihawk who was getting cockblocked by every swinging dick in marineford. Also Ivankov survived an attacked from Akainu with little damage and was up and about moments later.



Raikiri19 said:


> Zoro fought on par against Luffy for two entire chapters, and Luffy, as idiot as it was the reason, was dead serious. They clashed every time exactly on par, like Oni Giri vs Bazooka and so on. Why do you think Oda NEVER in 1000 chapters had a single real fight between Zoro and Sanji, in spite of this "rivality"? While he made Luffy and Zoro fight for even a nonsensical reason? The reason needed for Zoro and Sanji to fight would be very simple, like Zoro hurt a woman or Sanji finished Zoro's sake. And yet Oda never made them fight for real. Why? Because they fight only in gags. Just exactly like when Nami hits everyone. As a fighter, for real, Sanji is strong, but Zoro is far beyond him.


And yet luffy has been significantly above zoro since the first major arc (Alabasta). That fight was as much a gag as any of zoro and sanji's gag fights. Heck it ended with nami oneshotting both of them.




Raikiri19 said:


> There is not single issue or panel in 1000 chapter of this manga when someone doubts why Sanji is not the Strawhats captain, or why Sanji follows Rufy, or why Sanji is not a captain of his own crew. None. While you have so many panels where Oda makes people thinks that Zoro could be the captain or wondering why Zoro follows Rufy, or why Zoro is not a captain of his own crew.


I would say its because they are in many ways similar but also completely different. There's no denying that zoro looks by far the most menacing strawhat whereas sanji only even looks menacing when in direct conflict.




Raikiri19 said:


> While Rufy is already KO, Zoro clearly steps on to single handedly fight the big boss 1 vs 1 and protect the crew. Kuma clearly looks for Zoro and selects him beyond all the rest.


I mean the world sort of already acknowledges zoro as the vice captain at that point so it makes sense that kuma would pick him to fight since luffy was down.




Raikiri19 said:


> In presence of both Zoro and Sanji, the other Strawhats clearly feel that Zoro > Sanji. As they ask for Zoro's strength or for Zoro's charisma, instead than asking for both Zoro and Sanji. Sanji only rules when Zoro is not around. When both Zoro and Sanji are around, Zoro is clearly



What the... None of what you posted shows anything similar to what you just said.
Also sanji particularly pretime skip was depicted as more of an independent operator.




Raikiri19 said:


> While Sanji gets raped by Doflamingo, in the meantime Zoro is clashing with admiral Fujitora. Not even once, but twice. Even gaining praise from the admiral.


I mean sanji gained praise from doffy for his strength, tanked an attack capable of splitting a meteor from said admiral and got done in by an ability that fucked up even diamond jozu who himself could tango with an admiral.

I m not even gonna mention zoro getting violated by Apoo or his taking an 'L' from base carrot. I'm trying to be nice here.



Raikiri19 said:


> Zoro is undesputably referred as the first mate/vice captain and the 2nd strongest member of the Strawhats only behind Luffy. This happens in the manga and in the databooks. The first mate is 99% times a whole lot stronger than other crew members, especially in small crews like Roger's (Rayleigh >> Scopper > others) and Shanks' (Ben >> Lucky > others). Guess what, Rufy's crew follow the same exact structure as Roger's and Shanks' ones.



No one doubts zoro is the first mate though then again, Sanji doesnt exactly follow zoro's instructions. Heck he only agreed with zoro's opinion on ussop during Water 7 coz he knew zoro was right. Other than that, zoro gets zero respect from sanji other than the respect they grudgingly accord each other with respect to their strength e.g. Sanji stated that monet wouldnt give zoro/marimo any trouble and during zou, despite knowing that the BM pirates were after them and despite all evidence to the contrary, zoro knew the crew was safe for the sole reason that sanji/curly eye brow was with them.

Now to further address the "similarities" btwn luffy's crew and rogers'. Yes, such similarities exist but are way overblown. Luffy's crew is much smaller than rogers' or even shanks' for that matter, ergo luffy would need to have personnel who are stronger on average. Furthermore, its clear that luffy is going to go to war with the WG. Which means taking on 4 admirals (5 if aokiji turns out to be a double agent) as well as whatever SSG, the Gorosei and CP0 has up their sleeves. He's almost certainly going to need more that one crewmate capable to taking on an admiral (i.e. zoro and sanji).


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## maupp (May 25, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Lol. He never did so.He does the absolute opposite, he portrays Rufy > Zoro >> Sanji. Zoro is definitely closer to Rufy than Sanji is closer to Zoro.
> 
> - Zoro is created to be stronger than Sanji. Sanji is someone who needs to find a special sea: he can be strong, the stronger he is the better, but he does not need to be THAT strong to fulfill his character and make his established dream reality. While Zoro needs to be THAT strong, otherwise he would fail as a character. Because if he does not become stronger than Mihawk (who is Admiral/Yonko level), he would not fulfill his established dream.
> 
> ...


*slowclap*. Pat yourself on the back.

Some people needed a reminder and history lesson to get them to start seeing One Piece for what is really is , not the headcannon they think it is

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## HaxHax (May 25, 2020)

Big yikes. Isn't there like a fanfiction section for this stuff?


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## Mercurial (May 25, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> -snip-


I could not care less about fandom and fanbases and shit like that. I do not care that much even about neither Zoro nor Sanji. Very simply, in the manga is clear as day that Zoro is portrayed and showed as stronger than Sanji. Not massively stronger, but clearly stronger, stronger enough that a gap is undesputable. Zoro is stronger and more relevant. That much is showed, stated, implied. To say otherwise, one must be blind or a Sanji fanboy or a Zoro hater.

It's not that Sanji is weak or not relevant. It's not like that, at all. Sanji is freaking strong and he is a core member to the Strawhats. It's just that Zoro is stronger and more relevant. That's it. Rufy is the captain and the strongest one, Zoro is Rufy's right hand and first mate, the second strongest and the vice captain, and Sanji is Rufy's left hand and the third strongest. Rufy's crew is like Shanks's crew and Roger's crew, where first mate is far stronger than anyone else in the crew and close to the captain. That's easy. No need to overcomplicate it.

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## Mylesime (May 25, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> I could not care less about fandom and fanbases and shit like that. I do not care that much even about neither Zoro nor Sanji. Very simply, in the manga is clear as day that Zoro is portrayed and showed as stronger than Sanji. Not massively stronger, but clearly stronger, stronger enough that a gap is undesputable. Zoro is stronger and more relevant. That much is showed, stated, implied. To say otherwise, one must be blind or a Sanji fanboy or a Zoro hater.
> 
> It's not that Sanji is weak or not relevant. It's not like that, at all. Sanji is freaking strong and he is a core member to the Strawhats. It's just that Zoro is stronger and more relevant. That's it. Rufy is the captain and the strongest one, Zoro is Rufy's right hand and first mate, the second strongest and the vice captain, and Sanji is Rufy's left hand and the third strongest.* Rufy's crew is like Shanks's crew and Roger's crew, where first mate is far stronger than anyone else in the crew and close to the captain. That's easy. No need to overcomplicate it*.



  Oh it's not complicated at all, and i agree for the most part  with you until the bolded part which is Simply your headcanon. (Relevance is subjective…)
How on earth can you evaluate the gap in strength between Lucky roo or yassop and ben beckman?
How on earth can you evaluate the power gap between rayleigh and gabban or Oden?

  Contrary to what you stated at first, i do see a preconceived notion in your statement which create a supposed big gap between first mates and all the other commanders in their crews. Why? Only you can tell. But you're so neutral 
Which is quite Simply false, and contradict close to 1000 chapters of crew dynamics. It's then quite funny when people claim that any one who fails to see these imaginary gaps is a stan….quite paradoxal.
I'm sorry, i didn't see a huge gap between queen and king based on portrayal, but i did see a huge gap between Queen and Jack….


And i haven't seen this supposed gap between Gaban and Rayleigh when Roger was talking to them to prevent them from fighting Oden.
Again disagreeing with people claiming zoro is beating sanji without enma when we've seen kamazou damaged him enough to put him down, and when the author just gave Sanji a shield and an armor which put his durability on par with an ancien zoan like page one, doesn't make someone a delusional stan.

*EDIT:*
I'm trying to insert pictures via imgur in in my posts, can anyone explain it to me. I don't know why it doesn't function.


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## Mercurial (May 25, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> This literally doesnt make sense in light of what we know about the manga. The freaking WSM just wanted a family. The WSC just wants to die in battle. There's literally a pile load of strong characters who had no motivation that directly correlated with their strength.
> But lets follow your logic. Sanji wants to find the all blue. Now obviously once he finds it, he's gonna build a resturant there. Now how the hell would a notorious pirate be able to operate a resturant in peace if he wasnt so strong that not even the navy would fuck with him lightly?


Sorry but at this point I think that you lack reading comprehension, not only about One Piece but my post too. As I addressed already, it's a matter of completely different conception and therefore creation and purpose of the character. Yes someone who wants to find the All Blue will need to be strong. But how strong? Maybe Veteran level. That's "strong" already. Hell YC3 level would be good. Fuck it, YC1 level would be definitely enough. No one would take a YC1 level lightly, only Admirals or Yonkos could do so, and you can count those people on your fingers. So, again, to find All Blue you can be strong, but there's not a needed amount of strength. Being strong enough to travel without being troubled by most people you can meet, is enough. Neither the Marine nor the Yonkos would bully a YC level just for the sake of it. So Sanji needs to be strong, but he is not bound to absolutely need to reach a certain tier.

While, Zoro absolutely needs to reach a certain tier. A tier where he is strong enough to overcome, even slightly, someone who is on Yonko/Admiral level. Otherwise, Zoro completely fails to fulfill his character's dream and purpose. And that is not happening in a shonen. Basically, Oda created and developed Zoro to be slightly weaker then Rufy and significantly stronger than Sanji.



Kroczilla said:


> Zoro was the only one in the crew who had a known reputation. But as shown, sanji willing let himself get shackled to zef's dream. It was quite clear that if he has struck out on his own, he would have easily been an east blue top tier.


Sure. There's no deny about that. But why do you think that Oda chose to give that background to Zoro and to Zoro only?



Kroczilla said:


> The only one whom sanji MIGHT not defeat at the time would be Mr. 1 and even then:
> 
> Mr. 2 gave him trouble mostly due to his shapeshifting ability that allowed him exploit sanji's rule against hitting women. And even then
> Sanji had a far easier time beating him than zoro had with Mr. 1. Heck iirc, zoro literally collapsed after whereas sanji walked away with a couple of broken bones at best.
> ...


Sanji could never defeat Ohm, because he fights from far away and foresees any attempt to close the distance thanks to his Mantra. And at the same time he attacks with his strange sword, timing his attacks with help from Mantra. That's why Zoro could defeat him only with a long range attack of his own. Sanji has no long range attack. He cannot reach Ohm and he cannot dodge his long range sword forever. Skypiea Sanji has no chance against Ohm.

You cannot even compare Mr 1 and Mr 2. The former is so much stronger than the latter. Not only he was put in a different level in Impel Down (implying a significant gap between the two), not only is stated that in the Baroque Works the order of agents depends from their strength; but Mr 2 freaking FEARED Mr 1. He was afraid that Crocodile would sent Mr 1 to kill him if he failed his mission.


*Spoiler*: __ 








Yes, Sanji defeated Mr 2 with more ease than how Zoro defeated Mr 1, that's clear as day, but Mr 1 is also much stronger than Mr 2.



> Are you referring to breath of all things? Has that been confirmed to be haki?


Zoro used CoO to dodge the falling rocks and to find his sword immediately and CoA to cut steel.



> Zoro is only similar to raileigh in the sense that they both used swords.


Zoro is a swordsman like Rayleigh. Zoro has scar on his face and scar on his chest like Rayleigh. Zoro loves alcohol like Rayleigh. Oda draws Zoro in the same poses as he does with Rayleigh. Oda draws Zoro with the same clothes as he does with Rayleigh. Zoro is the captain's right hand and first mate, just like Rayleigh is. What else do you need? To deny that Rufy = Roger and Zoro = Rayleigh one must be blind or biased.



> As i recall, Oda stated in an interview that he only thought of the supernova concept right before sabody arc.


And so? He could easily create the 12 Supernova to have Sanji enter in, or find a way or something. He decided to not make Sanji a Supernova. That's it.



> I mean we are talking of the same mihawk who was getting cockblocked by every swinging dick in marineford. Also Ivankov survived an attacked from Akainu with little damage and was up and about moments later.


So you think that Mihawk = Ivankov. Good. Ivankov, together with Inazuma, was literally run through by Akainu with a casual attack that stomped them when they tried to stop him. Mihawk is the rival of a Yonko. Do the math.



> And yet luffy has been significantly above zoro since the first major arc (Alabasta). That fight was as much a gag as any of zoro and sanji's gag fights. Heck it ended with nami oneshotting both of them.


Sadly, it was not a gag. Oda named a chapter "Rufy vs Zoro" and had them fight for two chapters. A fight who basically is completely useless: it has the only purpose to show Rufy and Zoro as dead even on the same level of strength. Gags are the ones between Zoro and Sanji.

The first databook, which covers Alabasta too, ranks the Strawhats' strength (力) from 0/6 to a maximum of 6/6, and puts Rufy and Zoro at the same level of strength, giving both the same score of 6/6, the maximum in the Strawhats ranking. While Sanji received a score of 5/6. Chopper and Usopp have a score of 2/6 and Nami is 1/6. 


*Spoiler*: __ 






*Spoiler*: __ 







> I would say its because they are in many ways similar but also completely different. There's no denying that zoro looks by far the most menacing strawhat whereas sanji only even looks menacing when in direct conflict.


That's just excuses. If Oda wanted both to be rivals as strong or almost as strong, he would find the way to give both the same hype. He did not do that because he did not mean that. Simply and clear as day.



> What the... None of what you posted shows anything similar to what you just said.
> Also sanji particularly pretime skip was depicted as more of an independent operator.



Pal. You have Rufy leaving Vivi directly to Zoro, and Usop wondering why Zoro does not go and help Rufy fighting Crocodile. Sanji was there. If he was more or less as strong as Zoro, why did Rufy scream to Zoro to protect Vivi? Why did Usop wonder only about Zoro joining Rufy to fight the big boss, and not both Zoro and Sanji?

Usop was asking for coming back into the crew. Chopper reported that to Rufy. Rufy denied, therefore Chopper reported that to Zoro, who also denied. Sanji was also there. Questions. If Sanji was as relevant as Zoro (and in One Piece hierarchy is 99% due to greater strength), why did Chopper not ask Sanji at all? And if Zoro was not massively more relevant than any other Strawhat and close to the captain, why did Chopper ask him even if the captain alredy denied?

[/QUOTE]I mean sanji gained praise from doffy for his strength, tanked an attack capable of splitting a meteor from said admiral and got done in by an ability that fucked up even diamond jozu who himself could tango with an admiral.[/QUOTE]
Praise? Doflamingo was making a fool of him, his praise was ironic, you do not praise someone you are literally trashing around. And even if he really praised him (which he didn't), nothing would change, on the opposite maybe it's even worse: Doflamingo << Fujitora, praise from Doflamingo << praise from Fujitora.

Jozu could tango with... no one. He briefly fought Aokiji, that's it. He is not even remotely comparable. An attack from Jozu on distracted Aokiji resulted in a bloody lip from the admiral. An attack from Aokiji on distracted Jozu resulted in the commander being one shotted. Do the math.

[/QUOTE]I m not even gonna mention zoro getting violated by Apoo or his taking an 'L' from base carrot. I'm trying to be nice here.[/QUOTE]
First of all, you can easily see that Rufy and Zoro thought that Apoo was on Kidd's side. Then, they received  a surprise attack from long range and from a strange hax devil fruit. Still, even if wounded they tanked as if it was nothing (Zoro; Rufy was briefly KOed but immediately came back and was fine seconds later). At the end of the chapter, both are absolutely fine, like nothing happened.

If you think that Zoro was remotely serious against Carrot, you are deluding yourself. I hope not.

[/QUOTE]No one doubts zoro is the first mate though then again, Sanji doesnt exactly follow zoro's instructions. Heck he only agreed with zoro's opinion on ussop during Water 7 coz he knew zoro was right. Other than that, zoro gets zero respect from sanji other than the respect they grudgingly accord each other with respect to their strength e.g. Sanji stated that monet wouldnt give zoro/marimo any trouble and during zou, despite knowing that the BM pirates were after them and despite all evidence to the contrary, zoro knew the crew was safe for the sole reason that sanji/curly eye brow was with them.[/QUOTE]

Pal there's no denying that Sanji is strong and a core member of the Strawhats. It's just that Zoro is stronger and more relevant. That's it. 

Now to further address the "similarities" btwn luffy's crew and rogers'. Yes, such similarities exist but are way overblown. Luffy's crew is much smaller than rogers' or even shanks' for that matter, ergo luffy would need to have personnel who are stronger on average. Furthermore, its clear that luffy is going to go to war with the WG. Which means taking on 4 admirals (5 if aokiji turns out to be a double agent) as well as whatever SSG, the Gorosei and CP0 has up their sleeves. He's almost certainly going to need more that one crewmate capable to taking on an admiral (i.e. zoro and sanji).

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## Kroczilla (May 25, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Sorry but at this point I think that you lack reading comprehension, not only about One Piece but my post too. As I addressed already, it's a matter of completely different conception and therefore creation and purpose of the character. Yes someone who wants to find the All Blue will need to be strong. But how strong? Maybe Veteran level. That's "strong" already. Hell YC3 level would be good. Fuck it, YC1 level would be definitely enough. No one would take a YC1 level lightly, only Admirals or Yonkos could do so, and you can count those people on your fingers. So, again, to find All Blue you can be strong, but there's not a needed amount of strength. Being strong enough to travel without being troubled by most people you can meet, is enough. Neither the Marine nor the Yonkos would bully a YC level just for the sake of it. So Sanji needs to be strong, but he is not bound to absolutely need to reach a certain tier.


Bruh, just stop. First off, you missed the original point which is that a character's goal is in no way tied to their ultimate strength in OP save for specific circumstances. Secondly, a YC would definately not be enough to give the marines any sort of pause. Only persons shown to be atleast on par with an admiral have that kind of clout.




Raikiri19 said:


> While, Zoro absolutely needs to reach a certain tier. A tier where he is strong enough to overcome, even slightly, someone who is on Yonko/Admiral level. Otherwise, Zoro completely fails to fulfill his character's dream and purpose. And that is not happening in a shonen. Basically, Oda created and developed Zoro to be slightly weaker then Rufy and significantly stronger than Sanji.



Oh christ, here we go. Younko lvl zoro folks. Despite the fact that even mihawk felt the need to check the distance btwn himself and an aged younko. Also, all this will depend on their respective EOS opponents.



Raikiri19 said:


> Sure. There's no deny about that. But why do you think that Oda chose to give that background to Zoro and to Zoro only?



Coz of the plot? Coz it made for a more compelling story line regarding sanji. I notice in your post you keep stating things like "oda could have done ...." like he's more concerned with power lvls than what makes a better story. Also its sort of redundant having two exact same characters in the crew which is what you are suggesting.



Raikiri19 said:


> Sanji could never defeat Ohm, because he fights from far away and foresees any attempt to close the distance thanks to his Mantra. And at the same time he attacks with his strange sword, timing his attacks with help from Mantra. That's why Zoro could defeat him only with a long range attack of his own. Sanji has no long range attack. He cannot reach Ohm and he cannot dodge his long range sword forever. Skypiea Sanji has no chance against Ohm.



So basically zoro defeating ohm had more to do with his advantage in technique than actual strength diff. Concession accepted.
Also, i see you didnt mention jabra and kaku. Can i also interpret that as a concession on your part?



Raikiri19 said:


> You cannot even compare Mr 1 and Mr 2. The former is so much stronger than the latter. Not only he was put in a different level in Impel Down (implying a significant gap between the two), not only is stated that in the Baroque Works the order of agents depends from their strength; but Mr 2 freaking FEARED Mr 1. He was afraid that Crocodile would sent Mr 1 to kill him if he failed his mission.
> 
> *Spoiler*:
> 
> ...


Oh no doubt, Mr. 1 was much stronger. But as i stated, not only did sanji defeat Mr. 2 with far more ease, but he did despite the latter's use of his shapeshifting ability to land free shots (and Mr. 2's steel tipped swan boots gave him a massive range advantage).
Clearly Oda took time to show in those fights that whilst zoro had the more difficult opponent, you couldnt definitively say zoro was significantly stronger as sanji had handicaps and still won with far greater ease.




Raikiri19 said:


> Zoro used CoO to dodge the falling rocks and to find his sword immediately and CoA to cut steel.



Whatever you say mate.



Raikiri19 said:


> Zoro is a swordsman like Rayleigh. Zoro has scar on his face and scar on his chest like Rayleigh. Zoro loves alcohol like Rayleigh. Oda draws Zoro in the same poses as he does with Rayleigh. Oda draws Zoro with the same clothes as he does with Rayleigh. Zoro is the captain's right hand and first mate, just like Rayleigh is. What else do you need? To deny that Rufy = Roger and Zoro = Rayleigh one must be blind or biased.


The thing that really counts though is personality of which they are completely different. Rayleigh is smart, a tactician who has shown no qualms about acting in an underhanded and subtle manner to get what he wants. Zoro is none of these things, whereas sanji is.

But perhaps most importantly, Roger referred to rayleigh as his PARTNER. Zoro has never gotten such recognition even from the general public, much less luffy.




Raikiri19 said:


> And so? He could easily create the 12 Supernova to have Sanji enter in, or find a way or something. He decided to not make Sanji a Supernova. That's it.



He was literally about to begin the arc with everything already set up for the grand finale (marineford). Another arc before that would clearly have destroyed the flow of the story.

To add, sanji has more relevance than most SNs. He has the higher bounty than zoro and is also a member of a powerful family with tech that rivals vegapunk's.



Raikiri19 said:


> So you think that Mihawk = Ivankov. Good. Ivankov, together with Inazuma, was literally run through by Akainu with a casual attack that stomped them when they tried to stop him. Mihawk is the rival of a Yonko. Do the math.


No i dont think mihawk = ivankov. But fact is by feats, mihawk has far from lived up to his hype. Also mihawk was a rival to shanks long before the latter became a yonko.



Raikiri19 said:


> Sadly, it was not a gag. Oda named a chapter "Rufy vs Zoro" and had them fight for two chapters. A fight who basically is completely useless: it has the only purpose to show Rufy and Zoro as dead even on the same level of strength. Gags are the ones between Zoro and Sanji.



The fight ended in a gag like fashion with neither character going all out in any way. Even if it wasnt a gag, its not a clear indication of their standing, power wise.



Raikiri19 said:


> That's just excuses. If Oda wanted both to be rivals as strong or almost as strong, he would find the way to give both the same hype. He did not do that because he did not



Except sanji has as much hype already.



Raikiri19 said:


> Pal. You have Rufy leaving Vivi directly to Zoro, and Usop wondering why Zoro does not go and help Rufy fighting Crocodile. Sanji was there. If he was more or less as strong as Zoro, why did Rufy scream to Zoro to protect Vivi? Why did Usop wonder only about Zoro joining Rufy to fight the big boss, and not both Zoro and Sanji?


Except in the previous chapter, ussop referred to the trio as monsters. THE TRIO. That initself meant that ussop himself saw them as being on the same level, relatively speaking.



Raikiri19 said:


> Usop was asking for coming back into the crew. Chopper reported that to Rufy. Rufy denied, therefore Chopper reported that to Zoro, who also denied. Sanji was also there. Questions. If Sanji was as relevant as Zoro (and in One Piece hierarchy is 99% due to greater strength), why did Chopper not ask Sanji at all? And if Zoro was not massively more relevant than any other Strawhat and close to the captain, why did Chopper ask him even if the captain alredy denied?



Last i checked, zoro was the one who threatened a mutiny and directly opposed ussop's return if the latter failed to apologise. Sanji only relunctantly went along with it coz he knew zoro was right.



Raikiri19 said:


> Praise? Doflamingo was making a fool of him, his praise was ironic, you do not praise someone you are literally trashing around. And even if he really praised him (which he didn't), nothing would change, on the opposite maybe it's even worse: Doflamingo << Fujitora, praise from Doflamingo << praise from Fujitora.



Doflamingo was literally defending himself from sanji. Doflamingo used parasite to stop his attacks rather than just straight up overpowering him as you seem to think he could easily do.
Also, zoro basically did the equivalent of what g3 luffy did to fujitora. Last i checked, sanji showed he could match g3 luffy in defending against big mom's attack.



Raikiri19 said:


> Jozu could tango with... no one. He briefly fought Aokiji, that's it. He is not even remotely comparable. An attack from Jozu on distracted Aokiji resulted in a bloody lip from the admiral. An attack from Aokiji on distracted Jozu resulted in the commander being one shotted. Do the math.


Except the fact that it took a surprise attack to put down jozu is a testament to his strength as he had kuzan at stalemate before that. Also kuzan has the decisive elemental advantage which seemed to be a big deal in marineford.



Raikiri19 said:


> First of all, you can easily see that Rufy and Zoro thought that Apoo was on Kidd's side. Then, they received a surprise attack from long range and from a strange hax devil fruit. Still, even if wounded they tanked as if it was nothing (Zoro; Rufy was briefly KOed but immediately came back and was fine seconds later). At the end of the chapter, both are absolutely fine, like nothing happened.


So doffy catching sanji with a strange hax DF ability makes sanji look like a chump, but Apoo dropping zoro to his knees with same somehow gets a pass?



Raikiri19 said:


> If you think that Zoro was remotely serious against Carrot, you are deluding yourself. I hope not.



An L is an L. I 'm just following your lead, ignoring context and shit.

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## Kroczilla (May 25, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> The first databook, which covers Alabasta too, ranks the Strawhats' strength (力) from 0/6 to a maximum of 6/6, and puts Rufy and Zoro at the same level of strength, giving both the same score of 6/6, the maximum in the Strawhats ranking. While Sanji received a score of 5/6. Chopper and Usopp have a score of 2/6 and Nami is 1/6.



Forgot to address this.

Looking at it, the specified portion seems to refer solely to physical strength as opposed to overall stats.

More importantly, the strength stat seems to imply ussop and chopper are only about 3 times weaker than luffy. Basically, this is generally why i dont fuck with databooks.


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## Mylesime (May 25, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> Bruh, just stop. First off, you missed the original point which is that a character's goal is in no way tied to their ultimate strength in OP save for specific circumstances. Secondly, a YC would definately not be enough to give the marines any sort of pause. Only persons shown to be atleast on par with an admiral have that kind of clout.



  I would like to further highlight this point in the debate.
Like you say, one motives or goals don't correlate absolutely with his strength. Kaido is basicaly Gengis Khan, whitebeard was a man who wanted a family and wanted to be able to provide for his native island, a man who also wanted to nurture the child of the prophecy , the kid able to bring balance to the world (He thought that Ace had what it took). We all know who was the strongest of the two in his prime.
One piece is story which follows Luffy's conquest of the seas, in order to become the man who enjoy the most Freedom...… to do so you have to fight, it's nice and all to have knowledge, Robin's ability to read the poneglyph is tremendous, but let's not kid ourselves you have to actually be able to protect said knowledge and defeat all your opponent in the race to the One Piece.
So pudding is very important to Big Mom with her ability to potentially read the poneglyph with her awakened third eye, i'm not sure we could say that she is more important to the big mom empire than katakuri. Different purpose.
Following the same idea i'm not sure we can say that Vegapunk is much more important than Aka inu for the Marines.

Let's forget about all of that for a minute, are we supposed to act like Whole cake island didn't happen.
I mean i may be wrong but if i remember correctly sanji is a vinsmoke who rule the Germa, a paramilitary organzation.
So once again, Totland was brutal for Sanji on many occasions, but there were numerous elements that have a massive impact on the character background, and his path Moving forward.* The character was litterally modified in utero to be strong*
I mean what are we talking about, we Don't get to pick and choose the elements which fit our narrative, strength is literally the Reason why he was conceived by Judge .

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## Akakomuma (May 25, 2020)

S1: Sanji (only RS restricted) vs Zoro (only Enma restricted)?
Zoro mid-high dif.
S2: RS Sanji (unrestricted) vs Zoro (only Enma restricted)?
Zoro mid-high dif.
S3: RS Sanji (unrestricted) vs Zoro (unrestricted)?
Zoro mid dif.

Zoro one shot Pica but Sanji hasn't been able to do much post time skip.

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## Mylesime (May 25, 2020)

I had a few technical issues with my first post, so i'm reposting it correctly, illustrating my statements.
I'm not going to dispute your analysis of the portrayal of zoro as an individual entity. He's the right hand man of luffy, the embodiment of justice and order within the crew, an exceptional fighter.

   But regarding your portrayal of Sanji, it's so disingenuous that it needs to be adressed, and right here lays the main opposition between zoro's fans and sanji's fans. Some of you are quite delusional regarding Vinsmoke Sanji, and we shall not tolerate it ,we never did, we nevel will, it will be challenged as much as it needs to be no matter how many times those lies are spewed.

Make no mistake my fellow sanji supporters, Jinbei is not a threat to us, a magnificient character, a decent and respectful ficitional living being who doesn't deserve any attack. Luffy's fans have rarely direspescted our beloved cook, we're fighting the zoro fandom and will not rest until they put some repect on Sanji's name, or cease their constant vitriol all together.
There will be no peace between our two fanbases until then



Raikiri19 said:


> Lol. He never did so.He does the absolute opposite, he portrays Rufy > Zoro >> Sanji. Zoro is definitely closer to Rufy than Sanji is closer to Zoro.




  The power gap between sanji and zoro is comparable to the power gap between luffy and zoro overall.
The only way for you to accurately put zoro remotely close to luffy after his incredible feats on Whole cake island would be by using portrayal and hype. In which case you must Apply the same logic to sanji.
   It's one or the other, you can't shit on sanji for a lack of feats, while conveniently putting zoro near Yonkou first mate level (where luffy is) based on feats. Because we've seen him awfully close to Hawkins and killer based on feats…… And let's be real none of his two fellow supernovas were anywhere near first mate level.

And contrary to luffy who's the most inconsistant character ever zoro did not display luffy's positive feats, like beating a yonkou third commander then a yonkou first mate in less than 48 hours. So which one is it? Feats only, or do we take into account hype and portrayal?

*So, we're Calling you out: luffy>zoro>>>> sanji is pure bullshit based on feats.*
And based on portrayal and hype luffy>zoro>sanji is the only correct answer.
As hard as it is to admit, sanji is as much of a threat to zoro than zoro is a threat to luffy……and i shall show you why.

   The portrayal is clear, and if you were not so adamant on downplaying sanji you would have seen it as clearly as you've been able to perceive zoro's portrayal since the begining of the story. There is so many example that i will not be able to show all of them. I Don't need to. I will not even touch on the rivalry between sanji and zoro, but Simply showcase how the three of them form a monster trio, luffy being the core of the trio, where he is constantly supported by his left and right hand during their Journey:

1) *Luffy's right hand and left hand*

There are so many examples of zoro and sanji status as luffy's lieutenants that one need to be blind or deliberately turn a blind eye to not see them. And while it's true that One piece is driven by comedy a lot of the time, such occurrences happened so many times and during such dramatic events, that Audacity alone could not allow someone to deny it:

-They were the two strawhats to intervene and protect otoko, yasuie's little girl after his execution in the flower capital
View media item 87937-When luffy was about to be killed by Buggy at the exact same spot where roger died and was saved by Dragon, who did he ask for help?
View media item 87935View media item 87934That's where smoker decided to follow him and to stop him no matter what.

-At Sabaody when they were near extinction who were the two fellow crewmembers luffy entrusted the other members safety to:
View media item 87936
At fishmen island, who were the two ensuring that luffy could reach Hody without distraction. Again the same duo.
-Against Kuma, who were the two offering their lives in exchange of luffy'S? Zoro being challenged during such pivotal moment. Oda gave him the nod, which indicates that zoro is the first mate, but this type of portrayal make it laughable when some readers try to explain the dynamic bteween sanji and luffy as a gag, and something created in a few stans minds.
There is a reason this is one of recurrent topic in the lore of One Piece, Oda built it that way (cf mihawk VS shanks)
View media item 87939
-And last but not least, luffy stated that he could not become pirate king without Sanji, and that the Journey was as much as done without his help. Luffy literally linked his dream with another character's decision.....Sanji.
More than that he stated that he could not become pirate king without Sanji, explicitly stating that the character is essential to his dream. Impossible to downplay this portrayal. If such portrayal and characterization would have been given to zoro, what would you say?
View media item 87933

We're taking all the bullshit portrayal delivered at Whole cake, so let's please remember the positive ones too.
It's by acting like this (like none of these positive events took place)  that people act like all things related to the character have been shit since the time skip, which is a blatant lie.
According to some readers Page One trashed him…….We shall not let such lies stand any longer.
So in terms of portrayal, it's safe to say that without a shred of doubt there are an enormuous number of occasions were sanji was portrayed as zoro's equal, as luffy's representative. No matter how many times lies like this one would be used for propaganda:



Raikiri19 said:


> Kaku at Enies Lobby (>>> Jabra).




*
2) Sanji's portrayal is currently on par with most of the supernovas.*

His Bounty exceeds most of theirs, hell, he has an higher Bounty than zoro, and he participated in Big Mom assassination's plot where he's depicted as one of the main culprits and germa's representative in the Alliance , as one of luffy's underlings alongside jinbei and Capone (a supernova):
View media item 87938

  So again, let's take all the datas regarding the character, some outdated elements can not be used while ignoring new positive elements regarding the status and the hype of the characters currently in universe. The supernovas are cool and bound to grow, there are currently a bunch of groups on par if not higher in terms of portrayal (the tobbi ropo for example, Apoo is working for a promotion). Sanji is a power ranger with a bounty exceeding zoro's (portrayal), thanks.





Raikiri19 said:


> - Zoro was trained by Mihawk. Sanji was trained by Ivankov. Mihawk >>>>>>>>>>>> Ivankov. Ivankov was casually one shotted by Akainu when the former tried to stop the latter at Marineford. Do you see Akainu defeating Mihawk by casually one shotting him?



View media item 87931
Following the same reasoning, Vinsmoke judge is a far more important element in sanji's portrayal than fucking Ivankov (a proud commander of the revolutionary army). His biological father, the man dealing with a yonkou and the world government (able to change his bounty thanks to his connections).
Judge on top of being a decent fighter was more importantly one of Vegapunk's research partner, a man able to handle the lineage factor, elemental powers , and gigantification (giant snail, cats, and mouses). He's the head of a country reknowed for his technology. Which is more essential to Opverse than ivankov, Judge being the second best scientist inverse, hence why a yonkou tried to steal his knowledge.
The Germa are depicted as navy's evil enemies, which participates to sanji's infamy.
So yeah, Sanji's portrayal is on par with the supernova. The good and bad, we take all of it not only the elements which suit your narrative.

For all these reasons, no fucking way Zoro was beating Sanji without Enma, let's be real and civil.


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## TheWiggian (May 26, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> Okay, lets see your arguments.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





HaxHax said:


> *Big yikes. Isn't there like a fanfiction section for this stuff?*



Even a fellow Sanji fan says it's fanfction, damn @Kroczilla


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## maupp (May 27, 2020)

What's the issue here anyways? Are people trying to argue that Sanji is stronger than Zoro? Are they doing so with a straight face? Fact of the matter is Oda has designed, portrayed and intended Zoro as a superior fighter to Sanji ever since the manga started, that much is a fact.

Now let's talk about scenarios, seems some people think restricting Enma make some sort of difference to the outcome. Zoro w/o Enma is still the same Zoro that has been portrayed superior to Sanji, still the same Zoro that Oda let clash against an Admiral twice and looked good after, same Zoro that has one shoted throughout the whole post skip, same Zoro that has been portrayed above Sanji. Taking away Enma doesn't change anything pertaining to Zoro and Sanji relative strength.

I don't even know why some are fighting this. I know fanboyism can get the better of some but there has to be a limit to it at a certain point. Incessantly repeating one's headcannon still doesn't make it true, some people ought to realize this truth by now.


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## Beast (May 27, 2020)

Clashed with an admiral twice and looked good.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (May 27, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Clashed with an admiral twice and looked good.


Gets cockblocked by carrot, killer and denjiro


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## Mylesime (May 27, 2020)

maupp said:


> What's the issue here anyways? Are people trying to argue that Sanji is stronger than Zoro? Are they doing so with a straight face? Fact of the matter is Oda has designed, portrayed and intended Zoro as a superior fighter to Sanji ever since the manga started, that much is a fact.



The irony i swear to god .
*It's simple replace zoro's name by luffy's and sanji's name by zoro's and ask yourself how you would argue during such a debate and you've got your answer.
Luffy is not beating zoro without his gear 4, zoro is not beating sanji without enma. *



maupp said:


> Now let's talk about scenarios, seems some people think restricting Enma make some sort of difference to the outcome. Zoro w/o Enma is still the same Zoro


To answer your initial question, this right here is the issue.
It's pretty clear at this point that some readers can't be reasoned with, it doesn't really matter anyway.
I Don't know for the others, personally i'm just pointlessly playing around, until i get bored and ignore the matter alltogether. It's just an hobby, and i do it because lately i feel like it. It's almost like politics at this point, no honesty whatsoever, and debate with an agenda.
We shall stand for Sanji!
You're so much deluded that you end up writting such nonsenses.
Following your train of thoughts "enma doesn't make any difference, zoro is the same with or without this weapon….."
The fact that you truly Believe this, or pretend to , while labeling others as deluded is quite  funny actually.


  Zoro was never a match for an admiral at Dressrosa, that much is clear now, zoro did destroy his opposition until actually meeting a worthy foe, and we've seen that killer and Hawkins were comparable to him, denjiro was portrayed more favorably. A true bully.
So fujitora who wanted to see doffy fall and spared every single opponent in Dressrosa (sabo included) was clearly out of zoro's league, although zoro put up a good performance against him. Intent matter, plot matter.
So like you say , it doesn't matter how many times you will try to put zoro's near fujitora's level at dressrosa, it's unsustainable.
*Zoro struggled since the time skip…..since Wano more precisely.*



maupp said:


> I don't even know why some are fighting this. I know fanboyism can get the better of some but there has to be a limit to it at a certain point. Incessantly repeating one's headcannon still doesn't make it true, some people ought to realize this truth by now.


Take your own medicine, you may realize the irony in all of this, no matter your Audacity.


1) Apoo, Hawkins, Killer all damaged Zoro during their clashes, in killer's case it was a critical hit.
So the notion that Zoro could escape unscathed after a fight against Raid suit Sanji is not Worth debating.

2)* Enma and the raid suit are power ups which boost both characters strength, specialities, while erasing some of their deficiencies. A power up in short despite your claim that it doesn't matter *

a)-The Fucking Tontatta stole his weapon and he had difficulties locating and figuring out what was going on.
-*Oda portrayed Sanji while in Nami's body as the more competent of the two in order to complete a task where mobility, speed and coo were essential (finding kinemon's body part)…...while in Fucking nami's body once again.*
One of the instance that contradict the propaganda that would make you Believe that the characters' portrayal has been shit without interruption for a decade.

-On top of all of that, sanji with the suit  became faster, can fly more easily, and is now invisible.

-The glaring weakness of sanji was his durability against powerful foe (judge who survived an attack from big mom and then clashed with snack) or vergo (smoker's Superior, who was able with a bambo to overpower the logia and destroy his jitte/weapon in one strike); he was damaged while parrying against both of them.
Oda gave him a Fucking shield (the cape) and an armor (the suit itself) offering the character a mean to not put his body directly at risk anymore (luffy's got a fruit for that, zoro his blades, killer his weapons, Hawkins a fruit and a sword…… you get my drift)

  And despite all of that shit you would like for us to Believe that this doesn't change anything and that zoro would defeat him while impaired 

b) Enma allows zoro to generate an abnormally powerful strike, increasing his lethality, on top of his improved COA in order to master the blade in the first place.
*That's how he could technically bypass sanji's defense, that's how he would be able to overpower a shield, an armor, sanji's own body durability and his COA. 
Without Enma zoro is fucked in this hypotethical match up.The same way that if you take away luffy's gear 4 (his main card) against zoro he would lose, but i'm sure you've got no problem with the latter statement.*

*With Enma*, Zoro should win after a difficult fight.
Sanji has better durability here, better COO, better speed, better mobility. (it's not because sanji has the edge in these categories that they don't matter. Since when speed doesn't matter in a fight )
Zoro has better endurance, better offensive power/output , range, better COA, better lethality.
Take away enma and his advantage offensively dramatically decreases because like most of us can see that despite being slower and less agile zoro could obviously deal with sanji (counter, block , parry, whatever) , with the same thought process (*relative proximity)* zoro isn't shrugging off boosted flamed kicks (that much is evident seeing his encounter against apoo, Hawkins and killer)

  So yeah, one camp isn't rational in this debate, it might not be the one you think.


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## itsxtray (May 27, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> *The character was litterally modified in utero to be strong*
> I mean what are we talking about, we Don't get to pick and choose the elements which fit our narrative, strength is literally the Reason why he was conceived by Judge .



The drugs his mom took prevented him from gaining the benefits of said modifications, are you one of those people who think he'll "awaken" a power and an exoskeleton?


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## Mylesime (May 27, 2020)

itsxtray said:


> The drugs his mom took prevented him from gaining the benefits of said modifications, are you one of those people who think he'll "awaken" a power and an exoskeleton?


It was stated by one of the scientist of the Germa that the surgery was effective on all children. Sanji didn't manifest any power as a child…...But i'm sure you have noticed that the character uses fire , like niji electricity, and ichiji light/beam.
Are you one of these people that Believe that it's a coincidence?
One could say that sanji already partially awakened his powers.


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## itsxtray (May 27, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> It was stated by one of the scientist of the Germa that the surgery was effective on all children. Sanji didn't manifest any power as a child…...But i'm sure you have noticed that the character uses fire , like niji electricity, and ichiji light/beam.
> Are you one of these people that Believe that it's a coincidence?
> One could say that sanji already partially awakened his powers.


Don't be disingenuous, reiju creates poison, ichiji some kind of enegy, and niji electricity, while yonji shoots off his arm. Almost like devil fruit powers. Sanji spins using friction to create heat/fire, he doesn't produce it, he can't shoot off fireballs. (And every time he does it without spinning os for convenience, just like we never see Luffy entering gear 2nd anymore) Also, every kids hair color changed to match their abilities, sanji would have black hair if his dna was changed, because he's stealth black. Finally, he HAS emotions but doesn't have an exoskeleton, so imma need more proof bruh.

Also, If the drug didn't affect Sanji why did he retain his emotions? Why didn't he develop an exoskeleton? Why isn't his hair black and his ability invisibility?

Where would the fire ability come from? Sanji doesn't have orange hair and #3 isn't called scorching orange, It's called stealth black, meaning sanji was supposed to have an invisibility ability with black hair, to fit the theme of all the other kids.

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## Strobacaxi (May 27, 2020)

itsxtray said:


> meaning sanji was supposed to have an invisibility ability


LUL  Sanji's number 2 dream in life is to not be a failed experiment


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## Kroczilla (May 27, 2020)

itsxtray said:


> Sanji spins using friction to create heat/fire, he doesn't produce it, he can't shoot off fireballs.


Sanji hasnt needed friction to generate heat in quite a while. Not to mention he pulled off shit like hell memories with zero friction.


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## itsxtray (May 27, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> LUL  Sanji's number 2 dream in life is to not be a failed experiment


Lol, Oda also set this up in thriller bark further proving my point. Sanji's ability was supposed to be invisibility, his fire has nothing to do with his genetics.


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## Mylesime (May 27, 2020)

itsxtray said:


> Don't be disingenuous, reiju creates poison, ichiji some kind of enegy, and niji electricity, while yonji shoots off his arm. Almost like devil fruit powers. Sanji spins using friction to create heat/fire, he doesn't produce it, he can't shoot off fireballs. Also, every kids hair color changed to match their abilities, sanji would have black hair if his dna was changed, because he's stealth black. Finally, he HAS emotions but doesn't have an exoskeleton, so imma need more proof bruh.
> 
> Also, If the drug didn't affect Sanji why did he retain his emotions? Why didn't he develop an exoskeleton? Why isn't his hair black and his ability invisibility?
> 
> Where would the fire ability come from? Sanji doesn't have orange hair and #3 isn't called scorching orange, It's called stealth black, meaning sanji was supposed to have an invisibility ability with black hair, to fit the theme of all the other kids.



 Look i'm not trying to convince you of anything, i'm just stating what i gathered from Oda's storytelling. I may be wrong, i might have misunderstood, but that's what i gathered. Oda layed the foundations, he's obviously going to further develop Germa's plotline, and the vinsmoke dynamic.
Some facts that are undisputable:
-The surgery was successful on the four siblings. It was stated. Judge continued sanji's training for a while before finally giving up on him.
-Sanji is the only one affected by his mother medicine. That's why i said he just partially awakened his power. He did it at Enis lobby , at 19 unlike his brothers who were toddlers.


Until this point i'm just stating facts. Now i'm giving you my hypothesis on where i think Oda wants to go with this:
Why was he the only one affected by the medicine in its entirety to such extent?Why none of the 3 other received the medicine, not even a tiny bit?
I think that's because he's the more special of the bunch, the strongest potentially, the more heartless and ruthless. Because oda portrayed the brothers as such that the stringest they are the more emotionless they are ( Yonji<Niji<ichiji).
This part is my headcanon, i digress let's go back to what we do know.

-niji possesses electricity, it doesn't mean that he's able to use that element like enel would.
Funnily enough niji use of electricity looks a lot like sanji use of the fire.
Another hint that the brothers got some of the same genetic traits..... all four of them are horny motherfuckers.
We've seen characters use fire thanks to friction, katakuri,  luffy with his redhawk, kinemon, pearl one of don kriegs man. Sanji's fire is different, he doesn't even generate friction, he just ignite his limbs.
-the suits abilities aren't exclusively linked to the vinsmokes own physical abilities. Yonji has an increased strength, his suit allows him to stretch his gloves, he can't do that with his limbs.

That's why :
1) he already awakened *partially his powers* , not fully .
Hence maybe  why he didn't become a psycho yet.( this last sentence is me reaching, projecting)
2)There is obviously more to this storyline, which needs to conclude.


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## itsxtray (May 27, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> Sanji hasnt needed friction to generate heat in quite a while. Not to mention he pulled off shit like hell memories with zero friction.


Yeah, and Oda made a gag out of it in sbs saying it's because Sanji's heart was on fire or something. All i know is that it has nothing to do with his genetics, it's an ability.


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## itsxtray (May 27, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> Look i'm not trying to convince you of anything, i'm just stating what i gathered from Oda's storytelling. I may be wrong, i might have misunderstood, but that's what i gathered. Oda layed the foundations, he's obviously going to further develop Germa's plotline, and the vinsmoke dynamic.
> Some facts that are undisputable:
> -The surgery was successful on the four siblings. It was stated. Judge continued sanji's training for a while before finally giving up on him.
> -Sanji is the only one affected by his mother medicine. That's why i said he just partially awakened his power. He did it at Enis lobby , at 19 unlike his brothers who were toddlers.
> ...



This heavily implies the drug stopped Sanji from being modified:

Also, Sanji developing powers UNDERMINES WHAT HIS MOTHER DID FOR HIM.

Also, it doesn't say all 4, only 3 started exhibiting abilities.


*Spoiler*: __


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## Kroczilla (May 27, 2020)

itsxtray said:


> Yeah, and Oda made a gag out of it in sbs saying it's because Sanji's heart was on fire or something. All i know is that it has nothing to do with his genetics, it's an ability.


Yeah oda commented about sanji's passion burning hotter than his flames hence why using diable jambe didnt hurt him.
Its possible that oda hadnt thought of the germa plot at the point or didnt want to spoil it. You cant call it a gag as it is a prominent part of his arsenal.


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## Mylesime (May 27, 2020)

itsxtray said:


> This heavily implies the drug stopped Sanji from being modified:
> 
> Also, Sanji developing powers UNDERMINES WHAT HIS MOTHER DID FOR HIM.
> 
> Also, it doesn't say all 4, only 3 started exhibiting abilities.



This doesn't undermine anything , the fact that Sanji was able to become a cook, meet a real father figure, and create links with a real family (the strawhats) rather than become a psycho prince is thanks to his mother's sacrifice. Without her he would be the worst of the bunch, he owes her everything.
But he is what he is, a vinsmoke and a germa, hence why no matter how much he tries to fight it everybody associates him with the country and its history (drake and law more recently).
He has to be accountable, he has a responsability, he needs to take care of his brothers, he can't simply turn a blind eye and let them kill their own soldiers and citizens while running havoc.

  Look Oda is the one who chose this background , and this path moving forward for the character, 5 years ago nobody could have guessed this power ranger-ish thematic.
It's stated there that the surgery was successful and they didn't know why he could not manifest his powers



But i guess you can choose to believe that there is no link to niji's and ichiji's powers and he can do this shit because he's passionate (Oda should have spoiled his story in the SBS)

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## itsxtray (May 27, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> This doesn't undermine anything , the fact that Sanji was able to become a cook, meet a real father figure, and create links with a real family (the strawhats) rather than become a psycho prince is thanks to his mother's sacrifice. Without her he would be the worst of the bunch, he owes her everything.



He would be the worst of the bunch based on what? Your headcanon? Also, Sanji developing powers and losing his emotions after his mother died to prevent that is undermining her, but we can agree to disagree.



Mylesime said:


> But he is what he is, a vinsmoke and a germa, hence why no matter how much he tries to fight it everybody associates him with the country and its history (drake and law more recently).



More toxic bs, go tell all the abused kids out there that no matter what they do they can't escape their trash families shadow... naw bruh, fighting hard to differentiate yourself from them is all one needs to do.



Mylesime said:


> He has to be accountable, he has a responsability, he needs to take care of his brothers, he can't simply turn a blind eye and let them kill their own soldiers and citizens while running havoc.



No, Sanji doesn't have to be accountable for anyone but himself, trying to make some people accountable for what other people do is some toxic bs.



Mylesime said:


> Look Oda is the one who chose this background , and this path moving forward for the character, 5 years ago nobody could have guessed this power ranger-ish thematic.
> It's stated there that the surgery was successful and they didn't know why he could not manifest his powers



We'll we do know why he can't manifest his powers... he doesn't have any thanks to his mom's sacrifice. No changed hair color, no powers, no exoskeleton... still didn't answer the question about Sanji having black hair and invisibility powers and where fire powers would fit into the naming scheme with his brothers.

Why isn't #3 scorching orange if Sanji is supposed to have fire powers and instead stealth black? Why the invisibility foreshadowing at thriller bark if Sanji's supposed to have firepowers from his family lineage? Stealth black bro, not scorching orange <- some shit i made up.



Mylesime said:


> But i guess you can choose to believe that there is no link to niji's and ichiji's powers and he can do this shit because he's passionate (Oda should have spoiled his story in the SBS)



Yep, Oda's a goofy guy who likes to joke around a lot, nothing new here. Diable Jambe is just like Ashura to me, something Oda came up with to help in the cp9 fights... both powers with hazy explanations that don't really fit into the haki/devil fruit power dynamic, but wanted to give the strawhats something unqiue. It's just a quirk of the plot to make the fights more interesting.


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## Mylesime (May 27, 2020)

itsxtray said:


> He would be the worst of the bunch based on what? Your headcanon? Also, Sanji developing powers and losing his emotions after his mother died to prevent that is undermining her, but we can agree to disagree.


One thing is sure, i guess we can at least agree on that Sanji will surpass his brothers. In the end he will be the strongest.
Unless you Believe a bunch of rapists and wife-beaters , assassins will surpass one of the main protagonist/a good guy.
Regarding how he's going to do it, we can agree to disagree, i think that Oda's portrayal and aim is clear, let's wait and see.
I think that Oda built him like shun or Alone in saint seiya,kurama in yuyu hakusho, Gon in hunter x hunter,  Obito or Sasuke in Naruto, etc,etc hence the emphasis on his kindness, the purest character often becomes the most evil when sullied.
Too much emphasis on his kindness for it to be for Nothing, but it just an opinion, i can't see into the future.



itsxtray said:


> More toxic bs, go tell all the abused kids out there that no matter what they do they can't escape their trash families shadow... naw bruh, fighting hard to differentiate yourself from them is all one needs to do.


You want the character to put some distance between himself and his family. It would be natural, but he's an hero, blablabla. Possible, once again we have to wait and see.
But Sanji's mother's name, Germa's past (what happened, why are they depicted as evil by the World government), there is obviously more to this subplot.
More importantly, The siblings aren't responsible, Sanji was fortunate to have been affected by the cure, these dudes don't even give a darn when they are about to die, they need help. What would his mother want? 
I agree with you but that's not what heros do.



itsxtray said:


> We'll we do know why he can't manifest his powers... he doesn't have any thanks to his mom's sacrifice. No changed hair color, no powers, no exoskeleton... still didn't answer the question about Sanji having black hair and invisibility powers and where fire powers would fit into the naming scheme with his brothers.
> 
> Why isn't #3 scorching orange if Sanji is supposed to have fire powers and instead stealth black? Why the invisibility foreshadowing at thriller bark if Sanji's supposed to have firepowers from his family lineage? Stealth black bro, not scorching orange <- some shit i made up.


If i remember correctly, you were the one talking about headcanon? I don't know why you have such a specific idea about his appearence. *Yonji strength is naturally increased, his gears, name and devices aren't linked to his mutation*
What i'm saying is simple, it's factual i posted the picture previously, it's stated that: *"on paper all four of their genes were in fact successfully modified". There is nothing to argue about.*
And i said that he was only partially awakened, i have no idea what a complete awakening would look like.



itsxtray said:


> Yep, Oda's a goofy guy who likes to joke around a lot, nothing new here. Diable Jambe is just like Ashura to me, something Oda came up with to help in the cp9 fights... both powers with hazy explanations that don't really fit into the haki/devil fruit power dynamic, but wanted to give the strawhats something unqiue. It's just a quirk of the plot to make the fights more interesting.


Let's agree to disagree then, i'm sure he developed later the concept, it may have been a cool idea at the begining but Oda obviously knows where he's going:
-Zoro nowadays wield black blades , the ringo Swords are linked to their previous wielder souls, he's obviously going for a spiritual approach.
-Luffy is son wukong.
-I already said what i think about sanji's fire, if you think it's a joke i have Nothing to add, Nothing that i would say would make you reconsider, same for me.

Let's agree to disagree.


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## itsxtray (May 27, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> If i remember correctly, you were the one talking about headcanon? I don't know why you have such a specific idea about his appearence.


Last part, it seems obvious to me but ill write it out

Reiju: poison pink - pink hair
Ichiji: sparking red - red hair
Niji: dengki blue - blue hair
Yonji: winch green - green hair
*Sanji: stealth black- blone hair
*
One of these is not like the others. Sanji's motif is stealth black, meaning he should have black hair with invisibility powers if he was modified.

You're arguing that Diable Jamble *is *Sanji's modification, but my counter point is that it doesn't make sense b/c it doesn't fit the motif.

If fire powers were his genetic power it would be something like scorching orange and he'd have orange hair, just like his siblings hair matches their motifs.


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## Mylesime (May 27, 2020)

itsxtray said:


> Last part, it seems obvious to me but ill write it out
> 
> Reiju: poison pink - pink hair
> Ichiji: sparking red - red hair
> ...



And like i said that's your headcanon.
I obviously see a trend with their nicknames, but on top of their hair colours, Reiju (poison) , ichiji (sparking)  and niji (electric) epithet are related to their powers independently from their suit.
Which is not the case for Yonji (winch), his epithet is linked to his suit and his gears, his glove are mechanical, i Don't remember him being able to dismantle his own limbs. So the pattern isn't absolute.

But most importantly, we've established that his genes were successfully modified and that Judge waited for them to awaken before giving up on him. Why would i attribute, an awakened power 11 years later to anything else than said modifications?
Worse why would i assume that it's related to a joke/gag rather than an artificial mutation, when i know that he was successfully surgically modified?

Look, i get your point, i'm sure you got mine at this point: he was successfully modified, and the medicine delayed the awakening of his powers. 
We just disagree.


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## itsxtray (May 27, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> And like i said that's your headcanon.
> I obviously see a trend with their nicknames, but on top of their hair colours, Reiju (poison) , ichiji (sparking)  and niji (electric) epithet are related to their powers independently from their suit.
> Which is not the case for Yonji (winch), his epithet is linked to his suit and his gears, his glove are mechanical, i Don't remember him being able to dismantle his own limbs. So the pattern isn't absolute.
> 
> ...


Ight, we just disagree, nice talk. (Even tho im right) i'll give u rep if u end up being right tho.


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## Gauntlet (May 28, 2020)

Redline said:


> I tell another fact ..a carnivorous Zoan is phisically stronger then an erbivore one ..fact not faps!



Actually it stated that Carnivore zoans are more ferocious/aggressive than herbivore zoans, unless you think a lone wolf can beat a giraffe. If anything Kaku had the superior fruit of the two.


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## Redline (May 29, 2020)

Gauntlet said:


> Actually it stated that Carnivore zoans are more ferocious/aggressive than herbivore zoans, unless you think a lone wolf can beat a giraffe. If anything Kaku had the superior fruit of the two.


Lol..you are just confirming what I said in your own twisted way..do you think carnivorous Zoan is worst then herbivore? ..
Lol...it does matter the size......it was clear that oda mentioned the difference to make it even , so basically both kauku and jabra had the same power level , sorry but you gonna have to cope with it if you wanna stick with the truth, otherwise keep on believe 20 douriki more is a massive difference lol, as you wish


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## TheWiggian (May 29, 2020)

Redline said:


> Lol..you are just confirming what I said in your own twisted way..do you think carnivorous Zoan is worst then herbivore? ..
> Lol...it does matter the size......it was clear that oda mentioned the difference to make it even , so basically both kauku and jabra had the same power level , sorry but you gonna have to cope with it if you wanna stick with the truth, otherwise keep on believe 20 douriki more is a massive difference lol, as you wish



I don't know why you guys keep coming up with the douriki shit when it's obvious swordsmanship is impossible to inlcude in it. Should we check how many cutting attacks from Jabura it took to seriously injure Sanji to the point he instantly resorted to DJ? One single lupus four rankyaku, or better said 4 slices. I don't even wanna go and compare that to Zoro.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kroczilla (May 29, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> I don't know why you guys keep coming up with the douriki shit when it's obvious swordsmanship is impossible to inlcude in it.


Its also impossible to include jabra's tekkai mastery and superior DF. 


TheWiggian said:


> Should we check how many cutting attacks from Jabura it took to seriously injure Sanji to the point he instantly resorted to DJ? One single lupus four rankyaku, or better said 4 slices.



You mean the sanji who came into the fight seriously injured from kalifa's torture session on top of the hits he took from jabra's tekkai kenpo.



TheWiggian said:


> I don't even wanna go and compare that to Zoro



Zoro wasnt exactly chesting rankyaku attacks either. I dont know what you are getting at exactly.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gauntlet (May 29, 2020)

Redline said:


> Lol..you are just confirming what I said in your own twisted way..do you think carnivorous Zoan is worst then herbivore? ..
> Lol...it does matter the size......it was clear that oda mentioned the difference to make it even , so basically both kauku and jabra had the same power level , sorry but you gonna have to cope with it if you wanna stick with the truth, otherwise keep on believe 20 douriki more is a massive difference lol, as you wish


I never said herbivore df is more powerful than carnivore DF. I'm simply correcting you on that Chopper never stated carnivore DF are more destructive or powerful, but simply more agressive. Being aggressive doesn't make someone more powerful. And even if Chopper said what you're saying, can can he know that all carnivorous fruits are superior to all herbivore fruits? Not all fruits are made the same, and I don't see how you can argue that Jabra's wolf DF is superior to Kaku's DF considering  that in the real world a giraffe would kill a wolf easily and there's nothing in story proving such a claim.


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## Beast (May 29, 2020)

Gauntlet said:


> I never said herbivore df is more powerful than carnivore DF. I'm simply correcting you on that Chopper never stated carnivore DF are more destructive or powerful, but simply more agressive. Being aggressive doesn't make someone more powerful. And even if Chopper said what you're saying, can can he know that all carnivorous fruits are superior to all herbivore fruits? Not all fruits are made the same, and I don't see how you can argue that Jabra's wolf DF is superior to Kaku's DF considering  that in the real world a giraffe would kill a wolf easily and there's nothing in story proving such a claim.


Kaku only got the fruit while Jybura had it for some time even mastering his fruit.


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## Gauntlet (May 29, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Kaku only got the fruit while Jybura had it for some time even mastering his fruit.


I'm simply talking about the power of their fruits, which Kaku has the superior of the 2 considering a giraffe is not only bigger, but also is faster and has more striking strength in real life. But about the fighters, Kaku has used his fruit in more creative ways than Jabra has shown. Kaku has also shown more DC than Jabra. Kaku's a swordsman and has expertise in Rankyaku, making him more lethal of the two as well. Jabra has the expertise of Tekka, which made him defensively superior of the two, but that's the only thing I saw that Jabra edged out Kaku in. Claiming to master your DF doesn't mean anything if there isn't much to show for it.


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## TheWiggian (May 29, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> Its also impossible to include jabra's tekkai mastery and superior DF.



Why even use douriki for arguments then?
And where was it stated to be a superior devilfruit? Kaku just got his DF minutes before fighting and utilized it way better than Jabura did it in all the years. He had super versatile transformations and specialized in various rankyaku attacks.



Kroczilla said:


> You mean the sanji who came into the fight seriously injured from kalifa's torture session on top of the hits he took from jabra's tekkai kenpo.



These 800 douriki attacks are not even comparable to thousands. Just reread how Lucci laughed at Franky for defeating Fukurou and said his douriki is 5 times his, proceeding to one shot him. Yea your argument only hurts Sanji here. 



Kroczilla said:


> Zoro wasnt exactly chesting rankyaku attacks either. I dont know what you are getting at exactly.



Seems like we read different Mangas then. Zoro took dozens of rankyaku attacks, maybe you should reread it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (May 29, 2020)

Gauntlet said:


> I'm simply talking about the power of their fruits, which Kaku has the superior of the 2 considering a giraffe is not only bigger, but also is faster and has more striking strength in real life. But about the fighters, Kaku has used his fruit in more creative ways than Jabra has shown. Kaku has also shown more DC than Jabra. Kaku's a swordsman and has expertise in Rankyaku, making him more lethal of the two as well. Jabra has the expertise of Tekka, which made him defensively superior of the two, but that's the only thing I saw that Jabra edged out Kaku in. Claiming to master your DF doesn't mean anything if there isn't much to show for it.


Idk about faster but the giraffe is definitely stronger and bigger, IRL giraffe wouldn’t be fighting a wolf but running away. 
Oda handled both characters weirdly, the freshly baked DF users/ swordsman was actually using his fruit and only briefly used his swords (which should have been his primary fighting style) while the vet DF user only ever used one form and stuck to Rokushiki martial arts. 
As for the two fruits, I think it was portrayed that carnivorous zoans are more aggressive and better for fighting because of simple claws and k9s that they could use to attack and do damage in cqc more so then other fruits and even then Kaku obviously had way more versitility (that we saw) and use for his DF.


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## Mylesime (May 29, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Why even use douriki for arguments then?


 For the same reason you do:


TheWiggian said:


> These 800 douriki attacks are not even comparable to thousands. Just reread how Lucci laughed at Franky for defeating Fukurou and said his douriki is 5 times his, proceeding to one shot him. Yea your argument only hurts  Sanji here.


In short the intent is obvious, their physical capacity were ranked:
Lucci was two times stronger than kaku/jyabura...... 5 times stronger than fukurou.
Lucci was the only one who achieved the ultimate martial skill: rokugan, kaku was specialized with rankyaku/slashes, jyabura with tekkai.
Kaku showed great talent using his fruit, jyabura had more experience.
In short their enemies portrayal was clear:
Lucci was no match for the other cp9 agents, jyabura and kaku were close.
That's a pretty good indication regarding oda's intent and portrayal at the time.


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## TheWiggian (May 29, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> For the same reason you do:
> 
> In short the intent is obvious, their physical capacity were ranked:
> Lucci was two times stronger than kaku/jyabura...... 5 times stronger than fukurou.
> ...



I like how you ignore the most crucial part which is swordmanship. It took just 4 of those to bring Sanji to the edge of losing while he could tank numerous other strikes, shigan included.

Yeah no real comparison. Kaku and Zoro would've wiped the floor with Jabura given his stupid fighting style not to mention they're physically stronger.


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## Mercurial (May 29, 2020)

Read the manga, people, please. Jabra himself admitted that, in spite of the very brief time using the fruit, Kaku was already able to use it pretty well. To be honest, Kaku showed a far greater skill and versatility with his fruit than what Jabra did show with his one.



The doriki measure encompassed only physical capabilities, this also was stated. So fruits or weapons were not accounted. For fruits, it was textually stated (again, by Jabra). While for weapons, it is just pure logic: when Fukuro measured their doriki with his teawase special ability, Kaku was not using swords, he gave a physical blow, like everyone else. So how in the hell could teawase measure something that, literally, was not there to be measured? So, clearly, Kaku's doriki did not encompass his swords capabilities. And is worth note that Kaku states that he fights at his full power when he is using swordmanship in combo with Rokushiki and the devil fruit.



While, on the opposite, Jabra's doriki encompassed Tekkai Kenpo, which is nothing else than simply using Tekkai while moving. So:

Kaku: 2200 base doriki + greater devil fruit boost (giraffe is stronger than wolf, and Kaku showed greater skill with the fruit than what Jabra did; even if the latter had longer experience, the former showed just far better feats) + impressive level of swordmanship. Kaku's strongest move, Rankyaku Amanedachi, puts shame to every move Jabra showed. Even Rankyaku Rodan shits on every attack that Jabra displayed.
Jabra: 2180 base doriki (that also encompass Tekkai Kenpo, which is Tekkai, just that he can use it while moving) + lesser devil fruit boost + nothing.

Not to mention that Kaku is clearly portrayed as stronger, on a different level than Jabra. Kaku was selected, together with Lucci, to join CP0. Jabra was not. Kaku was the one in charge of the key of Nico Robin's handcuffs, while Lucci was in charge of guarding her and Spandam. While Jabra had no special task. So by both feats and portrayal, Kaku >> Jabra.

And yet, Zoro with Asura destroyed Kaku with far more ease than how Sanji with Diable Janbe defeated Jabra. Asura Zoro immediately ended the fight, it was no longer a fight when Zoro brought Asura, it became a rape: Zoro completely annihilated Kaku's strongest move and easily oneshotted him. While Sanji needed greater effort against Jabra, as he needed to use Diable Janbe three times: the first hit damaged Jabra but the latter could still get up and fight, to the point that the second hit was effortlessy dodged and that Sanji received a wound from Jabra, before managing to hit him with the third hit that finally KOed him.

So Sanji clearly needed a good ration of effort to defeat a massively weaker opponent than the one that Zoro defeated with far lesser effort.


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## Mylesime (May 29, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> I like how you ignore the most crucial part which is swordmanship. It took just 4 of those to bring Sanji to the edge of losing while he could tank numerous other strikes, shigan included.
> 
> Yeah no real comparison. Kaku and Zoro would've wiped the floor with Jabura given his stupid fighting style not to mention they're physically stronger.



No real comparison while the author purposefully separates their physical capacity by 20 miserable douriki ....... let's agree to disagree.
Zoro and sanji were fine after the events joking around while using luffy to intercept canon.
That was after being pierced and slashed numerous times ( while unguarded against kalifa a part you intentionally disregard. He was struggling in order to not hurt her , while receiving free hits ...)
Different style , sanji dodges and doesn't block as much as zoro who used a weapon.
Jyabura could not handle diable jambe despite his tekkai, kaku would have been fucked.
Despite your headcanon, one thing is certain.
None of the other agents could fuck with lucci, kaku at the time was portrayed very close to jyabura.
He did have a considerably higher growth rate though.


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## Beast (May 29, 2020)

Looooooool, some people should get a dictionary.


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## HaxHax (May 29, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Why even use douriki for arguments then?



Why do you think Oda introduced doriki if it is supposedly so misleading? What purpose does it then serve?

We're at a point in the series where the crew is mostly complete. And both Usopp and Franky just went blow for blow with Luffy in the prior arc. Enter doriki, a power level that only exists for the arc opponents, all of whom master the same combat style, which conveniently allows us to accurately gauge the crew without introducing power levels to the crew itself.


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## Mercurial (May 29, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> No real comparison while the author purposefully separates their physical capacity by 20 miserable douriki ....... let's agree to disagree.
> Zoro and sanji were fine after the events joking around while using luffy to intercept canon.
> That was after being pierced and slashed numerous times ( while unguarded against kalifa a part you intentionally disregard. He was struggling in order to not hurt her , while receiving free hits ...)
> Different style , sanji dodges and doesn't block as much as zoro who used a weapon.
> ...


Maybe you purposefully ignored my post. I'll just copy and paste it there for you. 

Jabra himself admitted that, in spite of the very brief time using the fruit, Kaku was already able to use it pretty well. To be honest, Kaku showed a far greater skill and versatility with his fruit than what Jabra did show with his one.



The doriki measure encompassed only physical capabilities, this also was stated. So fruits or weapons were not accounted. For fruits, it was textually stated (again, by Jabra). While for weapons, it is just pure logic: when Fukuro measured their doriki with his teawase special ability, Kaku was not using swords, he gave a physical blow, like everyone else. So how in the hell could teawase measure something that, literally, was not there to be measured? So, clearly, Kaku's doriki did not encompass his swords capabilities. And is worth note that Kaku states that he fights at his full power when he is using swordmanship in combo with Rokushiki and the devil fruit.



While, on the opposite, Jabra's doriki encompassed Tekkai Kenpo, which is nothing else than simply using Tekkai while moving. So:

Kaku: 2200 base doriki + greater devil fruit boost (giraffe is stronger than wolf, and Kaku showed greater skill with the fruit than what Jabra did; even if the latter had longer experience, the former showed just far better feats) + impressive level of swordmanship. Kaku's strongest move, Rankyaku Amanedachi, puts shame to every move Jabra showed. Even Rankyaku Rodan shits on every attack that Jabra displayed.
Jabra: 2180 base doriki (that also encompass Tekkai Kenpo, which is Tekkai, just that he can use it while moving) + lesser devil fruit boost + nothing. Do the math.

Not to mention that Kaku is clearly portrayed as stronger, on a different level than Jabra, as Kaku receives greater tasks and more relevant roles. Kaku was selected, together with Lucci, to join CP0. Jabra was not. Kaku was the one in charge of the key of Nico Robin's handcuffs, while Lucci was in charge of guarding her and Spandam. While Jabra had no special task. So by both feats and portrayal, Kaku >> Jabra.

And yet, Zoro with Asura destroyed Kaku with far more ease than how Sanji with Diable Janbe defeated Jabra. Asura Zoro immediately ended the fight, it was no longer a fight when Zoro brought Asura, it became a rape: Zoro completely annihilated Kaku's strongest move and easily oneshotted him. While Sanji needed greater effort against Jabra, as he needed to use Diable Janbe three times: the first hit damaged Jabra but the latter could still get up and fight, to the point that the second hit was effortlessy dodged and that Sanji received a wound from Jabra, before managing to hit him with the third hit that finally KOed him.

So Sanji clearly needed a good ration of effort to defeat a massively weaker opponent than the one that Zoro defeated with far lesser effort.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mylesime (May 29, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Read the manga, people, please. Jabra himself admitted that, in spite of the very brief time using the fruit, Kaku was already able to use it pretty well. To be honest, Kaku showed a far greater skill and versatility with his fruit than what Jabra did show with his one.
> 
> 
> 
> The doriki measure encompassed only physical capabilities, this also was stated. So fruits or weapons were not accounted. For fruits, it was textually stated (again, by Jabra). While for weapons, it is just pure logic: when Fukuro measured their doriki with his teawase special ability, Kaku was not using swords, he gave a physical blow, like everyone else. So how in the hell could teawase measure something that, literally, was not there to be measured? So, clearly, Kaku's doriki did not encompass his swords capabilities. And is worth note that Kaku states that he fights at his full power when he is using swordmanship in combo with Rokushiki and the devil fruit.



  Dude the picture you show literally portrays Jyabura evaluating kaku's performance regarding his proficiency with his new devil fruit.
  He's casually fucking around with ussop and Nami giving a grade to Kaku's performance as a new user.
At best this highlights a proximity between the two regarding their devil fruit, and i'm being nice.
Kaku did show great creativity with his  fruit, jyabura had far more experience hence why…...he was judging him on that particular aspect….



Raikiri19 said:


> While, on the opposite, Jabra's doriki encompassed Tekkai Kenpo, which is nothing else than simply using Tekkai while moving. So:
> 
> Kaku: 2200 base doriki + greater devil fruit boost (giraffe is stronger than wolf, and Kaku showed greater skill with the fruit than what Jabra did; even if the latter had longer experience, the former showed just far better feats) + impressive level of swordmanship. Kaku's strongest move, Rankyaku Amanedachi, puts shame to every move Jabra showed. Even Rankyaku Rodan shits on every attack that Jabra displayed.
> Jabra: 2180 base doriki (that also encompass Tekkai Kenpo, which is Tekkai, just that he can use it while moving) + lesser devil fruit boost + nothing.


 
Dude, it's like you're not even reading your own evidence.
*Kaku is talking about his ability to use his whole arsenal , "yontouryuu", he didn't say "nitoryuu" which implies that he's talking about his .....whole arsenal, rokushiki included. So no "tekkai kenpo" isn't taken into account in his douriki , akin to "yontouryuu"*
I Don't know if you noticed, two of the four blades he's talking about are…...his legs (rankyaku).
So douriki only take into account their pure physical strength *lucci being two times stronger than jyabura and kaku, who are on par on that aspect.*
So while you highlight, kaku's style and specialities, let me tell you that Jyabura tekkai kenpo (a fighting style so…) looked like trash because of Sanji, the same way Zoro destroyed Kaku "yontouryuu" thanks to ashura.
Why? Because he could not guard against Diable Jambe, negating his whole fighting style, sanji was the Superior martial artist. Tekkai kenpo is an effective martial art combinig defense and attack. It didn't work with sanji because the vinsmoke was quicker and faster, and jyabura could not defend himself at all. So if you were not bias, you would see that this only hypes sanji, like defeating kaku hypes zoro.
  In one case you downplay the opponent, in the other case you praise the strawhats.... talk about double standard. This is one of the reason sanji received a first bounty worth 77 millions berries, he fucked up Jyabura,aka the 3rd strongest CP9 agent.
*
Zoro had difficulties Breaking Kaku's tekkai, so it's obvious that he would have needed "ashura" to overcome Jyabura's defense.* *It's also pretty obvious that Kaku could not tank Diable jambe (two kicks were enough to put down jyabura….the tekkai master), on top of that Kaku being bigger than jyabura in his zoan form would have been a far easier target…..*
Your evaluation of their devil fruit is pure headcanon.


In short, stop hating, it's not good for your soul. Sanji and Zoro were stronger than Kaku and jyabura, both tandem being relatively close in strength , hence why Oda *told us that kaku and jyabura were practically equal in terms of physical attributes…. And that none of them could fuck with Lucci.*



Raikiri19 said:


> Not to mention that Kaku is clearly portrayed as stronger, on a different level than Jabra. Kaku was selected, together with Lucci, to join CP0. Jabra was not. Kaku was the one in charge of the key of Nico Robin's handcuffs, while Lucci was in charge of guarding her and Spandam. While Jabra had no special task. So by both feats and portrayal, Kaku >> Jabra.


2180.....2200........ Far superior 
I've got nothing to tell you regarding this matter, you've been lying to yourself for more than 10 years. I could tell you that Lucci was put in charge of one team, while jyabura was put in charge of the other one. Pure Headcanon, it's your interpretation, one element is clear:
4000>>>>> 2200>2180>>>>>>>>>>820>810>800. Clear intent.

Lucci was the only one depicted as far stronger than jyabura at the time.



Raikiri19 said:


> So Sanji clearly needed a good ration of effort to defeat a massively weaker opponent than the one that Zoro defeated with far lesser effort.






Raikiri19 said:


> Kaku was selected, together with Lucci, to join CP0.


Kaku did have more potential, and had Superior growth rate. But you know what, Sanji has more potential than Yonji and is far Superior currently…...yet when they were children he was outclassed.
Oda has been clear , you just have to read, and accept the Truth.


Jyabura doesn't want to fuck with Lucci: "*Forget about Lucci". "I've never heard of such a high number"....he doesn't even bother, because it's useless, cystal clear, without a shred of a doubt.*
Fukurou explains that lucci and kaku progressed incredibly, implying that 5 years earlier jyabura was close to lucci in strength and clearly Superior to Kaku.
He challenges kaku's superiority going as far as trying to stop him from eating a devil fruit in order to prevent an additional growth because he wants to keep his advantage, he doesn't even try to argue with Rob lucci.
 At the time of the ranking, he was stronger than Kaku thanks to his zoan.....
It's clear, Lucci was far Superior to any member, kaku was close to jyabura…….that's why nobody needs to write a book/ fanfic in order to explain why Lucci shits on jyabura


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## TheWiggian (May 29, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> No real comparison while the author purposefully separates their physical capacity by 20 miserable douriki ....... let's agree to disagree.
> Zoro and sanji were fine after the events joking around while using luffy to intercept canon.
> That was after being pierced and slashed numerous times ( while unguarded against kalifa a part you intentionally disregard. He was struggling in order to not hurt her , while receiving free hits ...)
> Different style , sanji dodges and doesn't block as much as zoro who used a weapon.
> ...



Hey it's not me who ignores a fighting style. It's literally black on white, i don't understand why Sanji fans are so bitter that he is the third strongest without a strenght related dream.



HaxHax said:


> Why do you think Oda introduced doriki if it is supposedly so misleading? What purpose does it then serve?
> 
> We're at a point in the series where the crew is mostly complete. And both Usopp and Franky just went blow for blow with Luffy in the prior arc. Enter doriki, a power level that only exists for the arc opponents, all of whom master the same combat style, which conveniently allows us to accurately gauge the crew without introducing power levels to the crew itself.



It's good that you consider it. Not that good by ignoring the rest.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mylesime (May 29, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Hey it's not me who ignores a fighting style. It's literally black on white, i don't understand why Sanji fans are so bitter that he is the third strongest without a strenght related dream



Which fighting style "tekkai kempo"? Because i've never denied kaku's skills with his "yontouryuu"....
We're in 2020, i know it's hard to get rid of old habits, and standard/usual answers and arguments you've used a hundred times, but you need to update your data.
Regarding the motives of the character, he's a germa. Simple memo, think power ranger/universal soldier.


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## CrownedEagle (May 29, 2020)

Zoro low difficulty in every scenario.


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## Kroczilla (May 29, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Why even use douriki for arguments then?
> And where was it stated to be a superior devilfruit? Kaku just got his DF minutes before fighting and utilized it way better than Jabura did it in all the years. He had super versatile transformations and specialized in various rankyaku attacks.


Why use the douriki argument? Coz its relevant. Coz it atleast tells us that the author intent in ranking cp9 members.
As for kaku's transformations, that seems more like a special attribute of the giraffe DF than some sort of other worldly mastery as no other zoan DF user has shown similar transformative abilities.
He specialized in rankyaku, jabra specialized in tekkai and could combined its strength with his own attacks to achieve far greater destructive power.



TheWiggian said:


> These 800 douriki attacks are not even comparable to thousands. Just reread how Lucci laughed at Franky for defeating Fukurou and said his douriki is 5 times his, proceeding to one shot him. Yea your argument only hurts Sanji here.


This is a dumb argument. Just because kalifa was far weaker than sanji didnt mean that she couldnt hurt if especially since he literally refused to fight back.
Zoro is far stronger than the average marine. Doesnt mean he can just stand still and no sell bullets from their rifle. Heck i seem to recall him getting banged up by fodders from bellamy's crew when luffy told him not to fight back




TheWiggian said:


> Seems like we read different Mangas then. Zoro took dozens of rankyaku attacks, maybe you should reread it.



Nah. You re just letting your zoro wank distort the images from the manga.


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## Gauntlet (May 30, 2020)

OT, Zoro mid diffs at worse in every scenario, except #2 where it might be a high dif in Zoro's favor as Sanji never shown durability to withstand AP at the level Zoro can casually dish out.


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## Mercurial (May 30, 2020)

Sanji fans are like Flat Earth Society members, lol. I will not bother anymore. Whatever helps you sleep at night is ok.

There's a reason 99% people think that earth is not flat and that Rufy > Zoro >> Sanji.

Reactions: Like 3


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## neonlight (May 30, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Sanji fans are like Flat Earth Society members, lol. I will not bother anymore. Whatever helps you sleep at night is ok.
> 
> There's a reason 99% people think that earth is not flat and that Rufy > Zoro >> Sanji.


Nah. Sanji fans are quite reasonable in that they know Zoro is superior  and would be one of the most notable  fighters in EoS but they hate to admit it.


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## Kroczilla (May 30, 2020)

Gauntlet said:


> OT, Zoro mid diffs at worse in every scenario, except #2 where it might be a high dif in Zoro's favor as *Sanji never shown durability to withstand AP at the level Zoro can casually dish out*.



Thats it folks. Next he's gonna tell us how zoro's AP >>>>> Doflamingo's named attacks which sanji ... *checks notes* tanked.




Raikiri19 said:


> Sanji fans are like Flat Earth Society members, lol. I will not bother anymore. Whatever helps you sleep at night is ok.
> 
> There's a reason 99% people think that earth is not flat and that Rufy > Zoro >> Sanji.



One thing about people who say they "couldnt be bothered anymore", they are typically the ones most bothered.


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## Gauntlet (May 30, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> Thats it folks. Next he's gonna tell us how zoro's AP >>>>> Doflamingo's named attacks which sanji ... *checks notes* tanked.


He only took one attack named Five Color Strings that entire fight, which is one of Dolflamingo's most basic named attacks, and it had him flying back reeling from it for a few seconds there. Wouldn't really consider that tanking.

And by the looks of it, with the help of Parasite, Overheat would have finished him off if Law didn't intervene. 

1080 Pound Cannon has shown higher AP than Five Color Strings, and Zoro can send them out quite frequently. I don't see Sanji withstanding one of them so easily, though his speed and CoO will help him avoid quite a few of them.


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## neonlight (May 30, 2020)

Sanji has got RS durability, so he can tank Zoro's moves now


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## Kroczilla (May 30, 2020)

Gauntlet said:


> He only took one attack named Five Color Strings that entire fight, which is one of Dolflamingo's most basic named attacks, and it had him flying back reeling from it for a few seconds there. Wouldn't really consider that tanking.


Same five coloured strings shredded a meteor from fujitora (even movie zoro could at best slice one in half) and was slicing through law's COA hardening. Not to mention the fact that doffy sliced off oars' legs with ease, same oars who survived ursus shock and was destroying giant VAs left right and center, the same doffy who was going to oneshot kyros with an unnamed attack had luffy not saved him.

It is a basic attack in the same sense that 1080 pound canon is a basic attack and yes sanji tanked it. He was barely hurt or slowed down by the attack. Heck doffy didnt even have time to attempt launching an attack at the crew before sanji was on his ass like nothing happened.




Gauntlet said:


> And by the looks of it, with the help of Parasite, Overheat would have finished him off if Law didn't intervene.


The same way killer's attack would have killed zoro had he not gotten treatment.
Also overheat has far greater range than any of zoro's techniques.




Gauntlet said:


> 1080 Pound Cannon has shown higher AP than Five Color Strings,



Again, how so? Coz doffy was bullying g2/3 luffy and law with attacks on a similar caliber to 5 coloured strings.


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## TheWiggian (May 30, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> Same five coloured strings shredded a meteor from fujitora (even movie zoro could at best slice one in half) and was slicing through law's COA hardening. Not to mention the fact that doffy sliced off oars' legs with ease, same oars who survived ursus shock and was destroying giant VAs left right and center, the same doffy who was going to oneshot kyros with an unnamed attack had luffy not saved him.
> 
> It is a basic attack in the same sense that 1080 pound canon is a basic attack and yes sanji tanked it. He was barely hurt or slowed down by the attack. Heck doffy didnt even have time to attempt launching an attack at the crew before sanji was on his ass like nothing happened.
> 
> ...



Movie also had Zoro fighting Fujitora while Sanji got the perma jobber VA Smoker. Guess the portrayal is clear even with filler evidence.


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## Mylesime (May 30, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Movie also had Zoro fighting Fujitora while Sanji got the perma jobber VA Smoker. Guess the portrayal is clear even with filler evidence.



Daddy Mihawk was there to help...... Zoro is obviously linked to Fujitora, the fact that he's out of his league for the moment is blatantly clear.
Sanji and zoro protected Luffy at the end of the movie during the same scene, one clashing with and stopping Rob lucci , the other Crocodile.
Indeed portrayal is clear for anyone who does want to see....
But again you people have a tendency to forget every positive feat and portrayal of the character.

Sanji's durability is now superior to zoro's by the way.
You know raid suit and shit.


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## Kroczilla (May 30, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Movie also had Zoro fighting Fujitora while Sanji got the perma jobber VA Smoker. Guess the portrayal is clear even with filler evidence.




>Gets dominated through out the *fight*
>Couldnt even stop a meteor which even base doffy handled with ease

No wonder mihawk looked so disappointed.

*Not to mention filler smoker was on par with sabo who i seem to recall put fujitora on life support*. You sure you want to go there, mate?
(Note: trolling on @bolded but you get the idea)


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## TheWiggian (May 30, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> Daddy Mihawk was there to help...... Zoro is obviously linked to Fujitora, the fact that he's out of his league for the moment is blatantly clear.
> Sanji and zoro protected Luffy at the end of the movie during the same scene, one clashing with and stopping Rob lucci , the other Crocodile.
> Indeed portrayal is clear for anyone who does want to see....
> But again you people have a tendency to forget every positive feat and portrayal of the character.
> ...





Kroczilla said:


> >Gets dominated through out the *fight*
> >Couldnt even stop a meteor which even base doffy handled with ease
> 
> No wonder mihawk looked so disappointed.
> ...



I wonder why it wasn't Sanji if he is 99,9% as powerful as Zoro as you guys suggest it.

Something fishy here. Last time I checked Admiral >>> VA.


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## Mylesime (May 30, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> I wonder why it wasn't Sanji if he is 99,9% as powerful as Zoro as you guys suggest it.
> 
> Something fishy here. Last time I checked Admiral >>> VA.



Nobody said that sanji was 99,99% as powerful as zoro, i don't know where you took that percentage from.....maybe inspired by @Raikiri19 , another statistician   (flat earth society members, 99%.....) 
  And i notice that you conveniently don't adress mihawk's help, and the fact that Sanji was the one stopping Rob Lucci in that very same movie......


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## TheWiggian (May 30, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> Nobody said that sanji was 99,99% as powerful as zoro, i don't know where you took that percentage from.....maybe inspired by @Raikiri19 , another statistician   (flat earth society members, 99%.....)
> And i notice that you conveniently don't adress mihawk's help, and the fact that Sanji was the one stopping Rob Lucci in that very same movie......



It's obvious that you use doriki as reference to justify that even current Sanji is basically Zoro's equal, discarding everything else like all Sanji fans do. I've debated people like you countless times on here, they all use the same argument even post ts, it always comes down to 2200 and 2180. Everything else is forgotten, that's why the Sanji fandom is so obsessed with these 2 numbers. It didn't help them in the past when TB came around and it won't post TS.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mylesime (May 30, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> It's obvious that you use doriki as reference to justify that even current Sanji is basically Zoro's equal, discarding everything else like all Sanji fans do. I've debated people like you countless times on here, they all use the same argument even post ts, it always comes down to 2200 and 2180. Everything else is forgotten, that's why the Sanji fandom is so obsessed with these 2 numbers. It didn't help them in the past when TB came around and it won't post TS.



You still didn't give us your take on:
1) The need of Mihawk intervention in Stampede
2) The portrayal of Sanji being the one to deal with Rob Lucci in that same movie.
  You know the kind of action that would touch on other subject rather than dorikis that sanji fan are supposedly obessessed with.
Let's talk about that filler movie you mentioned in the first place....

  And i find your argument quite funny when you're the one solely talking about his profession while ignoring his germa affiliation regarding the motives, the goals of the character related to strength.
And yet sanji fans are the one stuck in the past .


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## Kroczilla (May 30, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> It's obvious that you use doriki as reference to justify that even current Sanji is basically Zoro's equal, *discarding everything else*


@bolded such as? 
Also i havent seen anyone here rely solely on douriki.




TheWiggian said:


> Everything else is forgotten, that's why the Sanji fandom is so obsessed with these 2 numbers. It didn't help them in the past when TB came around



What exactly happened when TB came around?


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## TheWiggian (May 30, 2020)

Mylesime said:


> You still didn't give us your take on:
> 1) The need of Mihawk intervention
> 2) The portrayal of Sanji being the one to deal with Rob Lucci in that same movie.
> You know the kind of action that would touch on other subject rather than dorikis that sanji fan are supposedly obessessed with.
> Let's talk about that filler movie you mentioned...



Iam not debating on fillers, it was your buddy who came up with the argument and seems like Oda was fine with all SN's going up against Bullet (a characters that doesn't even exist in Oda's manga) while Zoro got singled out and was left to clash with Fujitora.
Couldn't care less about the non-existing argument. Fujitora > Rob Lucci regardless.



Kroczilla said:


> @bolded such as?
> Also i havent seen anyone here rely solely on douriki.
> 
> 
> ...



Stop citing around, it was all mentioned before. Read it again on the previous pages because right now all you do is drifting off-topic, delaying the thread.


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## HaxHax (May 30, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> What exactly happened when TB came around?



Yeah honestly a good question. Imagine thinking TB wasn't just another arc portraying Sanji and Zoro as close in terms of power. 

But this is the Zoro stan modus operandi. Rewrite the past through moss tinted glasses.



TheWiggian said:


> It's good that you consider it. Not that good by ignoring the rest.



Not an answer.


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## TheWiggian (May 30, 2020)

HaxHax said:


> Not an answer.



There was no question. At least not one that wasn't alrdy answered so.


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## ImpalerDragon (Jun 1, 2020)

Sanji kills zoro, sanji is portrayed superior without the raid suit. With raid suit it is a no contest, zoro will end worse as page1.


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## Pirao (Apr 22, 2021)



Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Strobacaxi (Apr 22, 2021)

ImpalerDragon said:


> Sanji kills zoro, sanji is portrayed superior without the raid suit. With raid suit it is a no contest, zoro will end worse as page1.


Nothing like a good old Sanji fan to lift my spirits in a work day morning

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Magentabeard (Apr 22, 2021)

This debate is over lol, Zoro will never be on the same level as Sanji.

Reactions: GODA 1


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## Pirao (Apr 22, 2021)

But I was told there's no Zoro downplay in this forum, so how is a thread like this possible?

Reactions: Winner 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Perrin (Apr 22, 2021)

When this thread was started, 14 months ago, I would have agreed with TheWiggian's assessment entirely.


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## Mercurial (Apr 22, 2021)

At this point the gap between Zoro and Sanji has became bigger than the ocean lol.
With his performance against Big Mom and Kaido, Zoro is clearly stronger than Kidd or Law.
And either Kidd or Law would destroy Sanji.
So do the math.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Bobybobster (Apr 22, 2021)

might be worth bumping in 5 years when EoS sanji gets some feats on the level of wano zoro

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3 | Winner 1


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