# Jiraiya vs. Itachi & Kisame



## StickaStick (Mar 31, 2014)

*Location*: Alliance vs. Juubi Jins
*SoM*: IC; To Kill
*Starting Distance*: 25m
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Restrictions*: Koto; Izanami; (Scenario 2: Frog Song)

*Scenario 1*: 
Edit: Itachi and Jiraiya have their feats up til their deaths. Kisame here is as he was in Part I and Itachi's heath is as it was against Kakashi in Part I (reasonable speculation allowed).

*Scenario 2*: 
Same as scenario two except that now Jiraiya starts in Sage Mode w/ Ma and Pa.

*Scenario 3*:
Same as previous two scenarios expect that now Frog Song is not restricted as in scenario two.


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## Ersa (Mar 31, 2014)

Base Jiraiya wins, Obito and Pain as back-up are useless.


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## Bonly (Mar 31, 2014)

Jiraiya beats them. Didn't ya know that even with backup Itachi+Kisame would still lose


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## Legendary Itachi (Mar 31, 2014)




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## Cognitios (Mar 31, 2014)

> Base Jiraiya wins, Obito and Pain as back-up are useless.


Wait what?


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## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Here's the thing people need to understand. Part I-Kisame was much weaker than Current-Kisame. Itachi stated he would have a tough time against Part I Kakashi


*Spoiler*: __ 



NJT, 142 page 6

お前が　その人とまともにやり合えば
ただでは済まない・・・
If you fight seriously with him you won't be let off easy...
*So in other words if Kisame fought then he wouldn't have an easy win since his opponet isn't an weak opponent. 
まともに= seriously
ただでは済まない= wouldn't get off easy.

それに時間をかければ
他の忍が　ここに駆けつけるだろう
Also if it takes time [to finish the fight] other shinobi will be on the way.




Anyone who is struggling with Part I Kakashi is far beneath Itachi and Jiriaya's level; something Kisame openly admits:


*Spoiler*: __ 



"Our levels are too far apart"




Basically Part I Kisame would not provide the assistance that people imagine him to, and that is why Itachi still would at best draw with Jiriaya, if him and Kisame fought J-man in part I.

However if we were to replace Pat I Kisame, with Current Kisame, than Jiriaya would get steam-rolled by the both of them.


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## StickaStick (Mar 31, 2014)

Noted. For the sake of this thread assume this is Kisame from Part I than.


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## LostSelf (Mar 31, 2014)

The problem with that is Itachi saying that not even with backup. I hope he was not refering to the other akatsuki members. Because Pain alone would've done the job. Therefore if Itachi was refering himself to the other akatsuki members when he said backup, then that "hype" is still fucked up.

Either way, part 1 Itachi was strong enough to be put above Orochimaru. Following that hype, he, by himself should be enough to take on Jiraiya.

Adding Kisame there, even if there's a differnece between his part 1 and part 2 self is still a one-sided battle.


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## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> The problem with that is Itachi saying that not even with backup. I hope he was not refering to the other akatsuki members. Because Pain alone would've done the job. Therefore if Itachi was refering himself to the other akatsuki members when he said backup, then that "hype" is still fucked up.
> 
> Either way, part 1 Itachi was strong enough to be put above Orochimaru. Following that hype, he, by himself should be enough to take on Jiraiya.
> 
> Adding Kisame there, even if there's a differnece between his part 1 and part 2 self is still a one-sided battle.


If Part I Kisame is around Part I Kakashi level, he is not going to be much help against Jiriaya, and Itachi already told us at best he would draw with Jiriaya. So honestly I see this ending at a draw, the small difference between Jiraiya wining with extremely high diff, and it being a draw, is probably what Part I Kisame bridges, if  he has any effect on the outcome at all.

Edit: And as far as the back up thing is concerned, he is most likely talking in general sense like hey if we had more rando's helping us it wouldn't change anything. However even if you don't buy into that there are plenty of Akatsuki members or Shinobi affilated with them that would be worthless in a fight between Itachi and Jiriaya; i'm looking at you countless fodder partners that Kakuzu WTFPWN and ripped the heart out of.


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## Cognitios (Mar 31, 2014)

If Samehada eats sage mode chakra does it become stone?


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## Legendary Itachi (Mar 31, 2014)

Itachi with Part 1 health beats Jiraiya. If dying state is debatable, then Base Jiraiya won't stand any chance against this Itachi who shows less fatigue after using MS for 3 times.

Plus I don't see how different Part 2 and Part 1 Kisame is. Itachi has every reasons to lie as the "backup" statement, and Kisame is confident enough to hold Jiraiya for a while. He's not on Sannin level, but there's no reason to believe why he's a non-factor here.


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## Weapon (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Here's the thing people need to understand. Part I-Kisame was much weaker than Current-Kisame. Itachi stated he would have a tough time against Part I Kakashi
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



This is pretty spot on, I pretty much disregard most of the crap that Kisame said in Part One since he really didn't do anything and all of his assumptions were going off what he heard not what he actually saw. It's pretty much fact too, that in Part One and Two Kisame was the one who was smashing all the Jinchurikee's instead of Itachi.


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## LostSelf (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> If Part I Kisame is around Part I Kakashi level, he is not going to be much help against Jiriaya, and Itachi already told us at best he would draw with Jiriaya. So honestly I see this ending at a draw, the small difference between Jiraiya wining with extremely high diff, and it being a draw, is probably what Part I Kisame bridges, if  he has any effect on the outcome at all.



But the hype contradicts itsell. Itachi was hyped to be confortably above Orochimaru, who is Jiraiya's equal. There we have two hypes colliding with each other, unless Jiraiya was meant to be put above Orochimaru, but that would not be the case because he failed to stop him.


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## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> But the hype contradicts itsell. Itachi was hyped to be confortably above Orochimaru, who is Jiraiya's equal. There we have two hypes colliding with each other, unless Jiraiya was meant to be put above Orochimaru, but that would not be the case because he failed to stop him.


Nothing contradicts itself. 

Itachi was never hyped to be "comfortably" above Orochimaru. He was simply hyped as stronger, which could mean slightly stronger. Looking at their DB-Stat Totals, that's exactly what it seems to be, considering that Itachi is only better than Orochimaru by .5.

As for Orochimaru being Jiriaya's equal, nothing really indicates that's the case. Jiriaya's DB-Stat Totals has him as better than Orochimaru; usually in the manga one rival is ahead of the other, and it's always the Jiriaya type, rather than Orochimaru type. Than we have Jiraiya taking Senjutsu further than Orochimaru.

Basically what this comes down to is Itachi, Jiriaya, and Orochimaru are all the same "level", but Jiriaya/Itachi are just a bit stronger than Orochimaru.


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## Mercurial (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Here's the thing people need to understand. Part I-Kisame was much weaker than Current-Kisame. Itachi stated he would have a tough time against Part I Kakashi
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Part 1 Kakashi was said to be a difficult match for Kisame, Kisame himself hyped him as a dign enemy (1) (and don't say "Kishimoto didn't think about Kisame's real strength" because he did; infact, Itachi adverted him to not use his most powerful AoE jutsu, because of the mess he would have created (2)). There's no power up for Shippuden Kisame more than part 1 Kisame, there is no reason to think otherwise. Simply part 1 Kakashi was that strong.

On topic, Itachi casually solos. He was clearly lying because he didn't want to go in a difficult situation having to act in front of Kisame. Itachi showed us he can casually defeat Jiraiya, especially in base. Speedblitz, genjutsu GG, Totsuka, Amaterasu, high speed jutsu execution who troubles part 1 Sharingan Kakashi and Hebi Sharingan Sasuke (who aren't as strong as Jiraiya, but sure as hell they are faster and with better reflexes).


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## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 31, 2014)

Itachi and Samehada win 3/3.

25 meters? That's like 75 feet. We have seen itachi clear that space within the span of a second. Sure Jiraya has a great vertical jump, but jumping and shun shin are two different talents.

I am going to tell you, why exactly, kisame and jiraya will win.

1. Clones.
Both have excellent clones. Jiraya has Kage Bunshin, but between those and mizu-bunshin and Bunshin Daibakuha, they stand no chance. Itachi also has karasu Bunshin, which use less chakra so those are options.

2. Itachi.
He's got sharingan and mangekyou. His visual acuity is going to be fantastic when it comes to seeing chakra and battlefield analysis.

3. Kisame.
He can make an ocean on demand, swim in the ground, has a great blade, makes regenerating sharks, ect. And has stamina for days.

Jutsu wise, jiraya is going to be doing a few things.

1. Summoning 
(With itachi's genjutsu this isn't the best idea. And none of those summons are as strong as kisame)

2. Katon jutsu
(Countered by kisame)

3. Rasengan. Devoured or dodged.

4. Melee.
Tanked or dodged.

I didn't put up frog song, because it takes a really long time to use, would be visible to itachi, and is dependent on ma and pa having a place without distractions.
Jiraya is quite capable when cornered within a structure where he can create distractions, but without it, he isn't at his best.

If he decides to flee, then it is kisame whom is best to chase after him with his suiton juts.
If he decides to close in, the closer he gets, the more dangerous itachi becomes.


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## Trojan (Mar 31, 2014)

According to Canon  Kishi, Kisame, and Itachi... Jiraiya is stronger than them.

According to Itachi's fanboys, itachi solos all sannin without even his sharingan and with only one Kunai in his mouth and his hands behind his back.

Do you care for fanboys' fan fiction, or do you care for what the manga said? 
That's the real question. U_U


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## ARGUS (Mar 31, 2014)

If we ignore the part one statement and only go by feats then itachi and kisame comfortably win this


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## Lawrence777 (Mar 31, 2014)

^ I feel the same way.
If Jiraiya were a perfect sage w/ sensing then I could see him being on Itachi's level, especially w/ frog call spam.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 31, 2014)

New Folder said:


> According to Canon  Kishi, Kisame, and Itachi... Jiraiya is stronger than them.
> 
> According to Itachi's fanboys, itachi solos all sannin without even his sharingan and with only one Kunai in his mouth and his hands behind his back.
> 
> ...



It's more about common sense than rumor. A picture is worth a thousand words, and in a manga, what we see as truth is much more compelling than what is told.

Remember, The Sannin were legendary figures in the ninja world. It's like saying michael jordan could still beat Lebron James based on watching space jam. That is the argument for using what itachi and kisame said amounts to. 

However, we as readers know why the Sannin got their title, because they were the last ones left. Hanzo probably still could have beaten them,and killed them, but he wasn't really into that kind of stuff. 

Now, knowing that the sharingan genjutsu can stream information directly into the brain, itachi could completely come up with a game plan without words and completely communicate the strategy to kisame all at once.

Have him charge forward at full force towards jiraya from multiple angles (Mizu-bunshin), Create an opening for itachi to use tsukuyomi, catch jiraya slippin, crush with susano'o and amaterasu.

Done.


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## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> ^ I feel the same way.
> If Jiraiya were a perfect sage w/ sensing then I could see him being on Itachi's level, especially w/ frog call spam.


Can I ask you what the difference is between a "Perfect-Sage" and an "Imperfect-Sage"? Because the only difference Kishi has highlighted is that "Imperfect-Sage" has some animal features, while a "Perfect-Sage" does not. Ultimately this being due to "Perfect-Sage" being able to more perfectly balance natural energy with their physical/mental energy, but the only thing that means is "Perfect-Sage" can generate more Senjutsu-Chakra, as they can balance more efficiently. But all that is going to do is give them more chakra and therefore their areas are boosted a bit more, but nothing indicates it gives them extra abilities like sensing. In-fact Kabuto still retained animal-features and could sense, so that works directly against that premise. 

There is really little reason to conclude that Jiriaya couldn't have Sennin Modo sensing.


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## Trojan (Mar 31, 2014)

dark messiah verdandi

This is a manga, what people may see it as common sense won't necessarily happen. Before the War
I wouldn't have imagined that Sai/Kankuro will be more than enough to take Deidara and Sasori down. Or Choji defeating Kakuzu, or itachi being helpless against Tayuya's genjutsu (without Sasuke's help) ....etc

it is not necessarily that foe will wait for the other guy to use his jutsus. It is the same in Hashi's case a lot
of people here see  him godly and can solo everyone..etc, yet he lost his life in the first war to fodders. 

Kin & Gin defeated Tobirama & 2nd Raikage, yet Darui was cutting them until Kin used his 6-tails mode
....etc

and kishi is the one who writes the manga and control everything in it, if he said something it's better to believe him because he can do whatever the heck he wants!


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## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 31, 2014)

New Folder said:


> dark messiah verdandi
> 
> This is a manga, what people may see it as common sense won't necessarily happen. Before the War
> I wouldn't have imagined that Sai/Kankuro will be more than enough to take Deidara and Sasori down. Or Choji defeating Kakuzu, or itachi being helpless against Tayuya's genjutsu (without Sasuke's help) ....etc
> ...



Yes, but all of those things were shown.
It wasn't conjecture. So, if you want to actually participate, do so.
If you want to appeal to authority, you have already said your piece. They made a comment based on rumor (THEY NEVER EVEN MET JIRAYA BEFORE), about his strength, and made a tactical decision based on it.

Had they stayed behind, they could have killed him easily, BUT itachi never killed anyone while undercover. He always commanded kisame to leave before ANYONE ever died.

With the knowledge we know now, itachi could have killed all of them instantly with Amaterasu. At the time, no one had knowledge of it's effects. Sasuke, Naruto, Jiraya, would have all been scorched. But you probably would never come to that conclusion, since banter is what you are concerned with.

Fact is, they have more counters and defenses against Jiraya, than he does against them. He is not overwhelmingly stronger. Not at all.  Kisame and Itachi were s-class ninja as well, and both were INSANELY strong. They just happened to be more special than the manga initially let on.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 31, 2014)

First of all, there is no evidence of any difference between part 1 Kisame and part 2 Kisame--none whatsoever. Anyone claiming there's a difference is just making shit up to explain something they find otherwise hard to believe. Sorry, but that's putting the cart before the horse; it's the same kinda bullshit you get from the Orochimaru apologists when they say he must've been weaker when 12-year-old Itachi kicked his ass precisely because that's what happened.

Having said that, the circumstances here are very different from the ones Itachi surmised would lead to mutual death or injury in the manga:

-The battlefield is different; no enclosed spaces or urban hiding places.
-The mutual intel is different (unless "manga knowledge" is being capped at the part 1 encounter).
-Itachi has not used the Mangekyou Sharingan already.
-Interference from Naruto, Sasuke, Gai, and the Anbu is not a concern.
-Itachi's allegiance to the same village as Jiraiya is not a concern.

Itachi is fully capable of beating Jiraiya by himself, and there's very little doubt that's going to happen in all three scenarios. Jiraiya has no way to effectively face him without either 1) exposing himself to Genjutsu or 2) closing his eyes and getting blindsided with Amaterasu. Tengai Houjin can detect movement, but that's not going to detect Amaterasu and Jiraiya's ability to fight effectively without eyesight is unproven. And Itachi's physically faster than Jiraiya outside of Sage Mode, so if he decides to attack with Susano'o there really isn't a God damn thing J-man can do about it.

Kisame's presence isn't needed. He'd be able to give Jiraiya a tough fight by himself, and he might even be able to win if I wasn't 100% positive that Kishi would use natural energy petrification to troll him like Pain's Preta Realm. With knowledge of that, maybe he'd be able to pull it off, but it's hard to say. I don't think it would be the favored outcome under these specific circumstances.

Together, Itachi and Kisame steamroll Jiraiya with low difficulty. Gamarinshou is the only serious threat Jiraiya poses to these two and there's zero chance of his toads pulling it off without a hiding spot, due to its lengthy prep time and audible build-up (which also gives away the location of the casters).


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## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> First of all, there is no evidence of any difference between part 1 Kisame and part 2 Kisame--none whatsoever.



Kisame got stronger over-time like other Ninja's his age

or

The Kisame who fought B & Gai is completely out of Jiriaya/Itachi's league &  would even struggle with Part I Kakashi; plus absorbing Bijuu-Chakra on Mass did nothing for him and he didn't have any growth as a shinobi over 3 years. Oh and not even Asuma's best Hein > Raiton Vibrato Blades and V1, since Kisame couldn't absorb it.





> Anyone claiming there's a difference is just making shit up to explain something they find otherwise hard to believe.


Or is it, that anyone who is not acknowledging a difference is intentionally ignoring the difference between how the character was portrayed from Part I to Part II in an extremely obvious attempt to make something that is very easy to believe, harder to believe, to support their fav character


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## StickaStick (Mar 31, 2014)

Just for clarification by manga knowledge I mean up to the point each died. So pretty much excluding any knowledge of SM Edo Itachi might have garnered during his encounter with Kabuto.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 31, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> First of all, there is no evidence of any difference between part 1 Kisame and part 2 Kisame--none whatsoever. Anyone claiming there's a difference is just making shit up to explain something they find otherwise hard to believe. Sorry, but that's putting the cart before the horse; it's the same kinda bullshit you get from the Orochimaru apologists when they say he must've been weaker when 12-year-old Itachi kicked his ass precisely because that's what happened.
> 
> Having said that, the circumstances here are very different from the ones Itachi surmised would lead to mutual death or injury in the manga:
> 
> ...



Even the petrification argument is invalid. Why?2
Because sage chakra that isn't deliberately UNBALANCED is safe to absorb.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Kisame got stronger over-time like other Ninja's his age



Kisame was already in or past his prime by the time he was introduced.

Most people seem to take it for granted that Itachi, the genius lauded for his explosive growth, made absolutely no improvement from the time he was 12 to the time he was 21. Like, once he hit puberty, he was just done developing and had already reached his potential. I personally find it laughable that something like that can be taken for granted while people seriously argue that someone like Kisame made any kind of significant improvement in only three years.

But, I digress: My main point is that *there is no evidence*, regardless of what you may believe to be reasonable or unreasonable--because Lord knows that isn't what dictates this manga.



> or
> 
> The Kisame who fought B & Gai is completely out of Jiriaya/Itachi's league &  would even struggle with Part I Kakashi;



Yeah. Unlike you, I don't see anything wrong with that; part 1 Kakashi was still very strong and a hell of a lot smarter than someone like Gai or Killer B--not to mention a lot more versatile. Itachi only said that Kisame would take some time beating him (compared to Tsukuyomi) and probably come away injured, but _he still implied that Kisame would win_. Just looking at their stats, and even taking their specific abilities into account, that seems entirely believable. Kisame would have to resort to something like Daikoudan or the water dome to truly have any kind of decisive edge, and at that point you'd be talking about trump cards he isn't prone to using until his hand has been forced. Given the context (not wanting to arouse Anbu's attention too soon or drag too many other people into the fight), Itachi had a vested interest in ensuring that Kisame stayed on a leash, too; he told Kisame not to go overboard for this very reason, right before they engaged Asuma and Kurenai.

Besides, Killer B was clearly disadvantaged against Samehada and Gai completely dominated Kisame with the 7th Gate. It's hardly any kind of stretch to say that that Kisame was not on Itachi's or Jiraiya's level (especially since his "level" increases in proportion to the chakra he steals while his enemy's decreases, which makes it hard to talk about Kisame's "power level" in conventional terms because it isn't static).



> plus absorbing Bijuu-Chakra on Mass did nothing for him and he didn't have any growth as a shinobi over 3 years



He's a grown ass man with no particular talent or ambition other than riding shotgun to Sharingan users and cracking-wise. He's not the type to train his butt off like Naruto or Lee and he doesn't have any discernible special propensity for natural improvement like Sasuke or Itachi, nor is he young enough to use the "he's still a growing boy" excuse.

And it's not like the Bijuu chakra stays inside his body forever since Samehada is the proper receptacle for that chakra and Kisame only draws on it to heal injuries or whenever he's fused with the sword.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Even the petrification argument is invalid. Why?2
> Because sage chakra that isn't deliberately UNBALANCED is safe to absorb.



I know that.

But Kisame's specialty is absorption and Jiraiya's a hell of a lot smarter than Naruto, and between him and the two toad sages I find it very hard to believe none of them would think to feed Kisame natural energy when they're grappling in the water dome or whatever.


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## Jagger (Mar 31, 2014)

New Folder said:


> According to Canon  Kishi, Kisame, and Itachi... Jiraiya is stronger than them.
> 
> According to Itachi's fanboys, itachi solos all sannin without even his sharingan and with only one Kunai in his mouth and his hands behind his back.
> 
> ...


If we go by statements, Amaterasu's heat is as great as the Sun's, which is logically impossible.

Statements are not everything, Elias. That's why it's better to use a combination of boths feats and portrayal/feats in order to get a more accurate picture of the entire hypothetical fight.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 31, 2014)

Jagger said:


> If we go by statements, Amaterasu's heat is as great as the Sun's, which is logically impossible.



It's not logically impossible, or else even the sun wouldn't be as hot as the sun.

It's just not supported by any demonstrations of the Jutsu.



> Statements are not everything, Elias. That's why it's better to use a combination of boths feats and portrayal/feats in order to get a more accurate picture of the entire hypothetical fight.



I don't think there's anything wrong with Itachi's statement--I think the disconnect lies in Elias's/New Folder's interpretation of it.

But I've beaten that dead horse more times than I care to recall and he still doesn't seem to want to let go of his beliefs.


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## Jagger (Mar 31, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> It's not logically impossible, or else even the sun wouldn't be as hot as the sun.
> 
> It's just not supported by any demonstrations of the Jutsu.


Thus, why I said it's logically impossible. I'm not sure if you misunderstood completely my point or the fact I explained myself wrong, but Amaterasu so far hasn't displayed a heat capable of melting away literally everything in Naruverse without even the need of quite close to the flames. 

That's what I literally said.




> I don't think there's anything wrong with Itachi's statement--I think the disconnect lies in Elias's/New Folder's interpretation of it.
> 
> But I've beaten that dead horse more times than I care to recall and he still doesn't seem to want to let go of his beliefs.


I never said there's nothing wrong with a statement, but there needs to be a balance between those and canonical feats shown in the manga. Both are needed in a way, or else, the person will get a completely different meaning from it. I could name another example, but I'd rather not do it, lol.


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## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Kisame was already in or past his prime by the time he was introduced..


Kisame was 29 years old in Part I; that's already past ones prime?



> Most people seem to take it for granted that Itachi, the genius lauded for his explosive growth, made absolutely no improvement from the time he was 12 to the time he was 21. Like, once he hit puberty, he was just done developing and had already reached his potential. I personally find it laughable that something like that can be taken for granted while people seriously argue that someone like Kisame made any kind of significant improvement in only three years.


Itachi had Ninja-aids. That's why his growth rate is more suspect than many other characters. With that said I don't think anyone has ever stated Itachi didn't grow as a shinobi since he was 12yo. 



> But, I digress: My main point is that there is no evidence, regardless of what you may believe to be reasonable or unreasonable--because Lord knows that isn't what dictates this manga.


The evidence is in the portrayal of Kisame in Part I vs Current - Kisame.



> Yeah. Unlike you, I don't see anything wrong with that; part 1 Kakashi was still very strong and a hell of a lot smarter than someone like Gai or Killer B--not to mention a lot more versatile. Itachi only said that Kisame would take some time beating him (compared to Tsukuyomi) and probably come away injured, but he still implied that Kisame would win. Just looking at their stats, and even taking their specific abilities into account, that seems entirely believable. Kisame would have to resort to something like Daikoudan or the water dome to truly have any kind of decisive edge, and at that point you'd be talking about trump cards he isn't prone to using until his hand has been forced.


The statement says that even if Kisame fought seriously with Kakash, he'd have a tough time. That includes utilizing his best shit, otherwise he wouldn't be taking Kakashi seriously if he stuck to his lower-end stuff. That is besides the fact that it would take time. And I'm sorry, but nothing implies Part I Kakashi would be able to give Current-Kisame as difficult and drawn out of a fight as Itachi's statement indicates; not one thing. 

Though if you really truly believe that Part I Kakashi is around Current-Kisame level, it doesn't change anything, as he'd than still be so far beneath the level of Jiriaya/Itachi he would have little effect on the outcome of their match; let's not forget that Part I Kakashi was shitting his pants against Orochimaru and considered himself a fool for believing he could do anything to Orochimaru:

Kakashi: Even if you are one of those 3 ninja...The man I am today can take you down.
Kakashi: Did I miscalculate?! What kind of a fool am I?!

Than we have Part I Kisame himself admitting he was out of Itachi/Jiraiya's league.

So ultimately ether way you look at it, it doesn't help your obvious end goal. It just makes your argument look more convoluted along the way.



> Besides, Killer B was clearly disadvantaged against Samehada and Gai completely dominated Kisame with the 7th Gate. It's hardly any kind of stretch to say that that Kisame was not on Itachi's or Jiraiya's level (especially since his "level" increases in proportion to the chakra he steals while his enemy's decreases, which makes it hard to talk about Kisame's "power level" in conventional terms because it isn't static).


There is a difference between not being on someone's level and being a joke in comparison. Part I Kakashi was a joke in comparison; Current-Kisame hardly is. 



> He's a grown ass man with no particular talent or ambition other than riding shotgun to Sharingan users and cracking-wise.


He had a very clear ambition and goal, which he was willing to die to protect. It doesn't get more wrong than the statement you just made



> And it's not like the Bijuu chakra stays inside his body forever since Samehada is the proper receptacle for that chakra and Kisame only draws on it to heal injuries or whenever he's fused with the sword.


Whether the chakra stays in his body or is contained within Samehada, does not matter as he can draw on that chakra whenever he wants, so the more chakra Samehada stores within itself the more power Kisame has access to and the more dangerous of a Shinobi he becomes. Kisame absorbed a ton of chakra since his convo w/ Itachi about Jiriaya, that alone should increase his standings significantly, even if he didn't increase his own abilities whatsoever over the past 3 years, which is almost inconceivable.


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## Trojan (Mar 31, 2014)

Jagger said:


> If we go by statements, Amaterasu's heat is as great as the Sun's, which is logically impossible.
> 
> Statements are not everything, Elias. That's why it's better to use a combination of boths feats and portrayal/feats in order to get a more accurate picture of the entire hypothetical fight.



I agree that statement are not necessarily everything, and I honestly don't think that Jman would beat both of them. What I am mainly against is the ridiculous thinking that itachi would defeat Jman as if he's fighting konokamaro, and some of itachi's delusional  fans think.  

a fight between Jman and itachi could probably go either way, but Jman will win more times than not though. SM users are always stronger than the MS users in the manga. U_U


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## ueharakk (Mar 31, 2014)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Even the petrification argument is invalid. Why?Link removed
> Because sage chakra that isn't deliberately UNBALANCED is safe to absorb.



In order to be turned into stone, you have to absorb more than you can control.  

Preta had to absorb an entire sennin mode transformation from naruto in order to get overloaded and turned into stone, that's at least 2 SM FRS and a single one is more powerful than SM Chou oodama rasengan barrage.  

When he fought jiraiya, Preta path didn't come anywhere near absorbing what he did from naruto.

Not only that but, the theory that pein absorbed deliberately unbalanced senjutsu is false.  If the senjutsu was unbalanced naruto would have taken on a very frogish appearance.  The reason why he doesn't take on that appearance is because he perfectly balances the natural energy with his chakra, so there's no way he could have created unbalanced senjutsu.


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## Ersa (Apr 1, 2014)

New Folder said:


> I agree that statement are not necessarily everything, and I honestly don't think that Jman would beat both of them. What I am mainly against is the ridiculous thinking that itachi would defeat Jman as if he's fighting konokamaro, and some of itachi's delusional  fans think.
> 
> a fight between Jman and itachi could probably go either way, but Jman will win more times than not though. SM users are always stronger than the MS users in the manga. U_U


At least you've moved up from claiming Base Jiraiya can wipe the floor with Itachi 

No one argues sick Itachi can stomp Jiraiya other then trolls. I think most here generally accept it can go either way depending on the stipulations. As for SM vs. MS, the power they offer is the same generally but MS is instant while SM requires prep which is a huge factor in Jiraiya vs. Itachi.


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## Ghost (Apr 1, 2014)

Aka duo no diff. Low diff if Jiraiya starts in SM.

They just overwhelm him immediately.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 1, 2014)

- Itachi stomps Jiraiya.
- Itachi defeats every Sannin at once. 
- Itachi and Kisame utterly destroy Jiraiya.

If Jiraiya begins in Sage Mode, he still loses without much effort. 

Itachi is portrayed to be stronger than any Sannin, and it isn't such a stretch to think he can take out all three of them. With Kisame, he clearly humiliates Jiraiya, and that outdated statement from P1 is fucking ridiculous.


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## Trojan (Apr 1, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> At least you've moved up from claiming Base Jiraiya can wipe the floor with Itachi
> 
> No one argues sick Itachi can stomp Jiraiya other then trolls. I think most here generally accept it can go either way depending on the stipulations. As for SM vs. MS, the power they offer is the same generally but MS is instant while SM requires prep which is a huge factor in Jiraiya vs. Itachi.





look the quote below! 
Some people think I'm trolling because I take what was stated in the manga
I wonder in what category do some of itachi's fans belong then. 



King Itachi said:


> - Itachi stomps Jiraiya.
> - Itachi defeats every Sannin at once.
> - Itachi and Kisame utterly destroy Jiraiya.
> 
> ...



How was he portrayed stronger than him when it was stated out flat that he's weaker?
and Oro who was given the ET and can summon all 4 Hokages, still inferior to itachi? 
itachi portrayed to be weaker than base Tauyuya, as we saw her humiliate him and defeat him with one jutsu,

- statements have dates before they end? What kind of food are they?
of course the statements in itachi's favors like when oro stated that he is weaker than itachi
or when the teacher talked about itachi's talent...etc they are anti-time, right?


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## LostSelf (Apr 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Nothing contradicts itself.
> 
> Itachi was never hyped to be "comfortably" above Orochimaru. He was simply hyped as stronger, which could mean slightly stronger. Looking at their DB-Stat Totals, that's exactly what it seems to be, considering that Itachi is only better than Orochimaru by .5.



Itachi was said to be an impossible dream for Orochimaru. That is confortably above, even considering that Orochimaru had Edo Tensei and how easy Itachi handled him.



> As for Orochimaru being Jiriaya's equal, nothing really indicates that's the case. Jiriaya's DB-Stat Totals has him as better than Orochimaru; usually in the manga one rival is ahead of the other, and it's always the Jiriaya type, rather than Orochimaru type. Than we have Jiraiya taking Senjutsu further than Orochimaru.



The sannins are basically equal if we don't count Senjutsu, and even if one is ahead of the other, is not by much. And by paralleling, Orochimaru resembling Sasuke and Jiraiya resembling Naruto can pretty much say that Oro was always the genius, and the one ahead most of the time, and if we count that, along with them being in the same tier generally and Jiraiya failing to stop him in the past, then by hype, Jiraiya is slight weaker or tied with Oro, who admitted a notably inferiority to Itachi.



> Basically what this comes down to is Itachi, Jiriaya, and Orochimaru are all the same "level", but Jiriaya/Itachi are just a bit stronger than Orochimaru.



I still disagree with being a "bit" stronger than Orochimaru. Jiraiya has not shown to be above, and we have his words that in a fight, he failed to defeat Orochimaru *if i am not mistaken), while a much younger Itachi handled him without much troubles.


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## Bonly (Apr 1, 2014)

New Folder said:


> *I agree that statement are not necessarily everything, and I honestly don't think that Jman would beat both of them.* What I am mainly against is the ridiculous thinking that itachi would defeat Jman as if he's fighting konokamaro, and some of itachi's delusional  fans think.
> 
> *a fight between Jman and itachi could probably go either way*, but Jman will win more times than not though. SM users are always stronger than the MS users in the manga. U_U



OMG. I never thought this day would, I was starting to lose hope but here you are saying this


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## FlamingRain (Apr 1, 2014)

Jiraiya may or may not manage to kill Itachi, but Kisame is most likely going to be dying.


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## Rain (Apr 1, 2014)

Kisame can give Jiraiya high diff.

Itachi can take out any of the Sannin as seen when he neg-diffed Orochimaru, the strongest among them.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Here's the thing people need to understand. Part I-Kisame was much weaker than Current-Kisame. Itachi stated he would have a tough time against Part I Kakashi
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



LOL'd @ the double standart.

Part 1 Jiraiya & Itachi are also weaker than their part 2 selves.


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## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> LOL'd @ the double standart.
> 
> Part 1 Jiraiya & Itachi are also weaker than their part 2 selves.


What double standard? Part II Jiraiya is unlikely to be noticeably weaker than his Part I self, considering that he is already past his prime in Part I. Itachi is likely to be weaker in Part II due to terminal illness; in-fact that is what you Itachi-fans are always preaching is it not -- so there is a double standard if anything.

On the flip side of this Kisame was 29 in Part I so he is right within the same age as Kakashi, where he'd continue to progress. He also has no illness like Itachi. On top of that we are given several very compelling reasons to believe he has improved since Part I.

I think many people just don't want to accept anything, that makes Itachi's statement about how he'd perform against Jiriaya, more plausible; for extremely transparent reasons.


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## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Itachi was said to be an impossible dream for Orochimaru. That is confortably above
> .


Sure, but let's take that statement into context. Orochimaru said it was an impossible dream to obtain Itachi's body. Obtaining Itachi's body doesn't just mean defeating Itachi, but capturing him and than successfully pulling off the Fushi-Tensei ritual. Considering this, even if Itachi was only slightly stronger than Orochimaru, it would still seem an impossible task to take Itachi's body; afterall defeating someone stronger than you + doing so w/o killer intent + defeating Sharingan master in Fuushi Tensei world.



> even considering that Orochimaru had Edo Tensei and how easy Itachi handled him.


Itachi never faced and Orochimaru who used Edo-Tensei against him. Itachi faced two Orochimarus; Pre-Manga Orochimaru who was seemingly weaker, as current Orochimaru would laugh at an injury like having ones hand cut off, & than Itachi faced armless Part II Orochimaru, which he used his best Jutsu to defeat. That's it.



> The sannins are basically equal if we don't count Senjutsu, and even if one is ahead of the other, is not by much. And by paralleling, Orochimaru resembling Sasuke and Jiraiya resembling Naruto can pretty much say that Oro was always the genius, and the one ahead most of the time, and if we count that, along with them being in the same tier generally and Jiraiya failing to stop him in the past, then by hype, Jiraiya is slight weaker or tied with Oro, who admitted a notably inferiority to Itachi.


I don't believe parallels mean anything. I believe what the manga shows me, and it's that the Jiriaya-type is always ahead of the Orochi-type. Hashira > Madara, Hiruzen > Danzo, Gai [or Obito] > Kakashi,  etc...

Naruto and Sasuke are a special cases, because they are literally reincarnations of Indra/Ashura, and even than if anyone has an advantage by the end it will be Naruto. But ether way regular rivals should not be compared to those 2, even Hashirama/Madara who have the most in common with Sasuke/Naruto, in the end the Jiraiya-type [Hashirama] was superior

Now i'm not saying there is a large gap between Jiriaya and Part I Orochimaru, but there isn't a large gap between Itachi and Part I Orochimaru ether.



> I still disagree with being a "bit" stronger than Orochimaru. Jiraiya has not shown to be above, and we have his words that in a fight, he failed to defeat Orochimaru *if i am not mistaken), while a much younger Itachi handled him without much troubles.


- No where is it stated that Orochimaru defeated Jiriaya. 
- DB says Jiriaya is superior if it is only slight; 35.5 > 35
- Jiriaya being able to actually use Sennin Modo says he is better than Orochimaru who couldn't achieve it
- Itachi's own statement reflects that Jiriaya is the superior Sannin

Those three things indicate Jiriaya is above Orochimaru. The thing is Jiriaya & Itachi aren't above Orochimaru by much, which is what trips people up.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> What double standard? Part II Jiraiya is unlikely to be noticeably weaker than his Part I self, considering that he is already past his prime in Part I. Itachi is likely to be weaker in Part II due to terminal illness; in-fact that is what you Itachi-fans are always preaching is it not -- so there is a double standard if anything.
> 
> On the flip side of this Kisame was 29 in Part I so he is right within the same age as Kakashi, where he'd continue to progress. He also has no illness like Itachi. On top of that we are given several very compelling reasons to believe he has improved since Part I.
> 
> I think many people just don't want to accept anything, that makes Itachi's statement about how he'd perform against Jiriaya, more plausible; for extremely transparent reasons.



Thats not what I am talking about.

In part 1, Jiraiya didn't have SM. 
In part 1 Itachi didn't have Susano'o.
Kisame barely had any display.

So yes, they were all weaker than their part 2 selves because we didn't know much about them.

Other than that, there is absolutely no reason to assume that Kisame was somewhat weaker. Nothing said, or shown implies this.

Just because Itachi said Kisame could get wounded in a fight against Kakashi doesn't mean he was weaker, current Kisame would also get wounded against Kakashi if he wasn't allowed to go all out. 

Itachi told Kisame to hold back because "his moves stood out too much." Kisame wasn't allowed to fight with all he got in that fight, and we know for a fact that Kisame's end game jutsus are all town scale. Without them yes, he'd have tough time against Kakashi. And even then, Itachi implied that Kisame'd be able to finish Kakashi off, only that it'd take a while and they didn't have that luxury.

edit : Wtf happened to my name ?


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## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats not what I am talking about.
> In part 1, Jiraiya didn't have SM.
> In part 1 Itachi didn't have Susano'o.
> Kisame barely had any display.
> ...


Not knowing much about them does not make them weaker, so why are you talking in riddles sir.



> Other than that, there is absolutely no reason to assume that Kisame was somewhat weaker. Nothing said, or shown implies this.
> 
> Just because Itachi said Kisame could get wounded in a fight against Kakashi doesn't mean he was weaker, current Kisame would also get wounded against Kakashi if he wasn't allowed to go all out.
> 
> Itachi told Kisame to hold back because "his moves stood out too much." Kisame wasn't allowed to fight with all he got in that fight, and we know for a fact that Kisame's end game jutsus are all town scale. Without them yes, he'd have tough time against Kakashi. And even then, Itachi implied that Kisame'd be able to finish Kakashi off, only that it'd take a while and they didn't have that luxury.


Itachi said that if Kisame fought Kakashi "seriously", he'd have issues with Kakashi, seriously is not holding back. And It's almost inconceivable that Kisame didn't increase his skills whatsoever over 3 years or his power/lethality after Samehada absorbed a shit ton of Bijuu-Chakra. Kisame was the main Akatsuki out there capturing targets, gaining exp in combat, and absorbing Bijuu/Jin-chakra, it really makes no sense to assume he is equally as strong as in Part I. Heck even the KN0 chakra he absorbed after making that statement to Itachi, should have made him stronger.

And we directly saw a rise in his abilities, where in Part I he couldn't react in time to fully deal with Asuma's Hien, but by the time Kisame is fighting B he's reacting to Sabu + B utilizing Raiton Vibrato blades, and absorbing them no problem. Come on dude, the difference couldn't get anymore clear.



> edit : Wtf happened to my name ?


Edit: Don't know, but apparently my name is immune


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Itachi said that if Kisame fought Kakashi "seriously", he'd have issues with Kakashi, seriously is not holding back.



I don't remember him saying that. Before the engagement began, Itachi told Kisame that he shouldn't "overdo it" because his moves stood out too much.

After Kakashi arrived, Kisame wanted to take him on and keep fighting but Itachi didn't want him to do so, his main concern was that it'd take too long and more people would come and join them.

So again, there is nothing wrong with what Itachi said. Without his signature moves(as Itachi warned Kisame, turning Konoha into an ocean wasn't an option), Kisame wouldn't be able to dispatch Kakashi without difficulty.




> And It's almost inconceivable that Kisame didn't increase his skills whatsoever over 3 years or his power/lethality after Samehada absorbed a shit ton of Bijuu-Chakra.


Increasing skills would apply to  just about anyone. Especially someone who is younger and has more potential than Kisame, like Itachi for example. Becoming better isn't something exclusive to Kisame, I have no idea why you even mention it.



> Kisame was the main Akatsuki out there capturing targets, gaining exp in combat, and absorbing Bijuu/Jin-chakra, it really makes no sense to assume he is equally as strong as in Part I. Heck even the KN0 chakra he absorbed after making that statement to Itachi, should have made him stronger.


We actually don't know if Samehada permanently stores the chakra he steals. He became visibly fat when he absorbed chakra from B. Other times he were in his usual size. there is actually no way to tell how much chakra samehada stole, how much of it was transfered to Kisame and how much that improved Kisame(if such thing is even possible).

Kisame could only have captured 5 tails, 6 tails and 7 tails off panel. That is assuming he was assigned to capture all of them, and Itachi let him solo all of them like he did with 4 tails. 

There are all assumptions with no basis, and with no quantifiable means. 

I am sorry but this is borderline fanfiction. We generall don't assume things that aren't hinted or shown or stated or implied in the manga. In this particular case, there is absolutely no reason to.



> And we directly saw a rise in his abilities, where in Part I he couldn't react in time to fully deal with Asuma's Hien, but by the time Kisame is fighting B he's reacting to Sabu + B utilizing Raiton Vibrato blades, and absorbing them no problem. Come on dude, the difference couldn't get anymore clear.



Kisame didn't realize Asuma could extend wind chakra through his blade, thats what caught him off guard. He was surprised more than anything else. B has no such ability, his moves aren't subtle at all, Asuma could barely scratch him, B ended up stabbing him.

Just by looking @ those performances, there is literally no difference in regards to Kisame's skill or strength.

You are basically  making shit up @ this point.


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## StickaStick (Apr 1, 2014)

Rain said:


> Kisame can give Jiraiya high diff.


Kisame thought Jiraiya would be a handful for him and Itachi so 1v1 I'd imagine he'd see himself getting curb stomped. 



Rain said:


> Itachi can take out any of the Sannin as seen when he neg-diffed Orochimaru, the strongest among them.


Besides being misleading, Oro =/= Jiraiya so irrelevant.


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## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't remember him saying that. Before the engagement began, Itachi told Kisame that he shouldn't "overdo it" because his moves stood out too much.
> 
> After Kakashi arrived, Kisame wanted to take him on and keep fighting but Itachi didn't want him to do so, his main concern was that it'd take too long and more people would come and join them.
> 
> So again, there is nothing wrong with what Itachi said. Without his signature moves(as Itachi warned Kisame, turning Konoha into an ocean wasn't an option), Kisame wouldn't be able to dispatch Kakashi without difficulty.


How can you quote my post and imply it's ridiculous without actually reading it? Because I included the quotes in the initial post, you cited, but here it is again:

NJT, 142 page 6

お前が　その人とまともにやり合えば
ただでは済まない・・・
If you fight seriously with him you won't be let off easy...
*So in other words if Kisame fought then he wouldn't have an easy win since his opponet isn't an weak opponent. 
まともに= seriously
ただでは済まない= wouldn't get off easy.



> Increasing skills would apply to just about anyone. Especially someone who is younger and has more potential than Kisame, like Itachi for example. Becoming better isn't something exclusive to Kisame, I have no idea why you even mention it.


I would agree with you if Itachi did not have a terminal illness and MS's passive drawbacks. That's the issue with him and has always held back his development, otherwise he'd probably grow stronger than anyone.



> We actually don't know if Samehada permanently stores the chakra he steals. He became visibly fat when he absorbed chakra from B. Other times he were in his usual size. there is actually no way to tell how much chakra samehada stole, how much of it was transfered to Kisame and how much that improved Kisame(if such thing is even possible).


I don't see why the chakra would magically disappear; do you?



> Kisame could only have captured 5 tails, 6 tails and 7 tails off panel. That is assuming he was assigned to capture all of them, and Itachi let him solo all of them like he did with 4 tails.
> 
> There are all assumptions with no basis, and with no quantifiable means.
> 
> I am sorry but this is borderline fanfiction. We generall don't assume things that aren't hinted or shown or stated or implied in the manga. In this particular case, there is absolutely no reason to.


We know he at least fought KN0-Naruto, Team Gai, Roshi, Taka, B, & than Aoba/B/Gai, since Itachi and him had that convo. Also his best-hunter in Akatsuki title had to come from somewhere, so he most likely fought at least one other Jin besides that, over the time-skip. That's a-lot of fights and a-lot of opportunities to pilfer chakra [many of the times we directly see him do so].

However even if you wan to take the stance that we don't know exactly who he fought, that doesn't help defend the point that Kisame didn't get stronger. It just means that your admitting that you don't know or at best arguing we don't know. And if the argument is we don't know, than I think when looking at a statement like Jiriaya drawing with Itachi + Part I Kisame, you can't than turn around and argue, hey this shit makes no sense, because look at Current-Kisame's strength, because you already admitted you don't know if he got stronger. See what i'm saying bruv. 



> Kisame didn't realize Asuma could extend wind chakra through his blade, thats what caught him off guard. He was surprised more than anything else. B has no such ability, his moves aren't subtle at all, Asuma could barely scratch him, B ended up stabbing him.


We saw Samehada auto reacting and auto absorbing chakra in the B fight, so why did that not occur against Asuma? I think the obvious explanation is that Samehada's abilities weren't honed to that level yet and later reached that level do to fighting alongside Kisame against a number of powerful enemies since then.



> Just by looking @ those performances, there is literally no difference in regards to Kisame's skill or strength.
> 
> You are basically making shit up @ this point.


You just admitted you don't know if Kisame got stronger or not, now you accuse me of making shit up. At worst you could argue that i'm offering a simple possibility, not just outright fabricating things.

I mean what am I fabricating here:

- That Kisame was not past his prime since he was 29, and logically it's unlikely his skills didn't increase at all over 3 years and after quite a few battles?
-  That Itachi stated Kisame fighting serious would have a tough time with Part I Kakashi, which seems counter intuitive to the way his current strength is portrayed
- Kisame stated he was completely out of Itachi/Jiriaya's league, which seems counter intuitive to the way his current strength is portrayed
- Kisame fought many individuals where he'd have a chance to pilfer large supplies of chakra, since he had that discussion with Itachi

None of this is made up; whether you decide to believe these things indicate a strength increase is ultimately up to you, however it seems very disengenius to me to say, no way Kisame's strength increased and than turn around and use that to try to make Itachi's prior statement seem outlandish.


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## The Undying (Apr 2, 2014)

Definitely don't see Jiraiya taking them both at once. And I agree with Nikushimi about Kisame; there doesn't seem to be a basis for any difference between his Part 1 and Part 2 selves.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 3, 2014)

Portrayal wise base oro, Imo was slightly above base jiraiya,  oro was elected to be fourth hokage for one, for respective power always praised Oro as the genuis, if u look back to when they fought hanzo, jiraiya needed tsunade, to hold him up while Oro seemed to be fine.

When they engaged Oro was willing to fight him with his handicaps, and as cocky as Oro is he doesn't strike me as someone to fight a battle he knows he would lose.



Now sm jiraiya, imo is above oro, but oro closes that gap with et.

so jiraiya and Oro are more or less equal, with itachi being about 1 tier above them, not a large gap, but a gap none the less.


I think kishi made the parrells pretty clear, Oro hyped itachi, jiraiya hyped the fourth, which was there next respective power ups, (kcm mode) which gave him his father's speed and ems which gave sasuke (stage 4 susano)


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## Rain (Apr 5, 2014)

The Format said:


> Kisame *thought*Jiraiya would be a handful for him and Itachi so 1v1 I'd imagine he'd see himself getting curb stomped.



Kisame didn't have any knowledge on Jiraiya beyond  the Sannin reputation which honestly has been proven to be overglorified. 

Featwise i don't see how Kisame is much weaker than Jiraiya, if at all.




> Besides being misleading, Oro =/= Jiraiya so irrelevant.



Oro is more knowledgeable about genjutsu than Jiraiya and still got fodderized. 

If Itachi's genjutsu offense > Orochimaru's gen defense > Jiraiya's gen defense, then its perfectly logical to assume that Itachi's gen offense > Jiraya's gen defense.


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## ueharakk (Apr 5, 2014)

Rain said:


> Kisame can give Jiraiya high diff.
> 
> Itachi can take out any of the Sannin as seen when he neg-diffed Orochimaru, the strongest among them.


itachi only negg diffs people when they have zero knowledge on him and don't take him seriously.

So him beating an oro who looks right into his eyes says nothing about how difficult it would be to beat an oro who has knowledge on him.


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## Ersa (Apr 5, 2014)

Irregardless of knowledge, beating someone with that amount of ease without a good portion of his power says a lot about where the author places the said character.


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## Jagger (Apr 5, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Irregardless of knowledge, beating someone with that amount of ease without a good portion of his power says a lot about where the author places the said character.


It does. But intel plays a considerable part of everything. The reason Jiraiya got curbstomped so badly by Pain is because he lacked the necessary intel to formulate a plan to counter their jutsu.

I'm not saying he would have won with it, but he would have given a better fight. In fact, SM Naruto did due the intel and other factors.


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Irregardless of knowledge, beating someone with that amount of ease without a good portion of his power says a lot about where the author places the said character.


The fact that the author portrayed an injury that would otherwise be insignificant to current Orochimaru, as a big deal, demonstrates how the author placed Pre-Manga Orochimaru. The fact that Itachi utilized his best Jutsu to defeat Orochimaru the second time, the fact that Orochimaru's DB stats are only .5 than Itachi's, and the fact that Itachi said at best he could draw with Orochimaru's long standing rival, who also has only a .5 higher than Orochimaru in the DB, says a-lot in terms of how the author places current Orochimaru; hint it's much closer to Itachi than you wish to believe.


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## Dr. White (Apr 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The fact that the author portrayed an injury that would otherwise be insignificant to current Orochimaru, as a big deal, demonstrates how the author placed Pre-Manga Orochimaru. The fact that Itachi utilized his best Jutsu to defeat Orochimaru the second time, the fact that Orochimaru's DB stats are only .5 than Itachi's, and the fact that Itachi said at best he could draw with Orochimaru's long standing rival, who also has only a .5 higher than Orochimaru in the DB, says a-lot in terms of how the author places current Orochimaru; hint it's much closer to Itachi than you wish to believe.



No just no Turrin. 
-The point of the scene wasn't about over analyzing the injury and linking it to pt. 2. It was about dominance. Oro a sanin approached a teenage Itachi, who responded by trapping him an a bae genjutsu, and then lopping off his arm. Itachi chose to lop his arm off, he could have just as easily lopped his head off. This was made clear when Orochimaru clearly aluded to not being able to beat Itachi and then looking at his ring(linking it to his past battle with Itachi)

-The Jiraiya scene was itachi lying. It is pure context. Unless you're stuck in pt. 1 you have to see this. Itachi didn't want to cause harm to any bystandards, or Jiraiya (a huge part of Konoha's defense) and simply lied to Kisame using the Sanin title to scare him off. Unless you believe Full power Kisame and Gated Gai are that fodder to Jiraiya.


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## Rain (Apr 6, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> itachi only negg diffs people when they have zero knowledge on him and don't take him seriously.
> 
> So him beating an oro who looks right into his eyes says nothing about how difficult it would be to beat an oro who has knowledge on him.



Implying its easy to fight an opponent while only watching into his feet. Gai trained his entire life to be able to do that. Itachi'd still win decisively with finger genjutsu or a kunai to the grey matter.


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## StickaStick (Apr 6, 2014)

Rain said:


> Kisame didn't have any knowledge on Jiraiya beyond  the Sannin reputation which honestly has been proven to be overglorified.


Not at the time the statement was made. The fact that Jiraiya would have one-shot Kisame with Gamaguchi Shibari without Itachi's assistance I think leads credence to Kisame's doubts.



Rain said:


> Featwise i don't see how Kisame is much weaker than Jiraiya, if at all.


Part I Kisame's feats are in no way in the league of Jiriaya's at the point he died.



Rain said:


> Oro is more knowledgeable about genjutsu than Jiraiya and still got fodderized.
> 
> If Itachi's genjutsu offense > Orochimaru's gen defense > Jiraiya's gen defense, then its perfectly logical to assume that Itachi's gen offense > Jiraya's gen defense.


*Comparing pre-manga Oro attempting to jack Itachi's body to how Jiraiya would approach a 1v1 fight. I'm not even sure if your other statement is correct either anyway.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> No just no Turrin.
> -The point of the scene wasn't about over analyzing the injury and linking it to pt. 2. It was about dominance. Oro a sanin approached a teenage Itachi, who responded by trapping him an a bae genjutsu, and then lopping off his arm..


I'm sorry, but this is double standards. On one hand you want to just take a base reading of the scene; Itachi's dominance over Orochimaru, and therefore ignore the circumstances. Than on the other hand you want to go into circumstances when it makes Itachi look better, like the level of Genjutsu used. You can't have it both ways



> Itachi chose to lop his arm off, he could have just as easily lopped his head off


Which would also do nothing to Manga Oro.



> This was made clear when Orochimaru clearly aluded to not being able to beat Itachi and then looking at his ring(linking it to his past battle with Itachi)


I'm not saying Orochimaru could beat Itachi; i'm saying the gap was not as massive as some wish to believe.



> The Jiraiya scene was itachi lying. It is pure context. Unless you're stuck in pt. 1 you have to see this. Itachi didn't want to cause harm to any bystandards, or Jiraiya (a huge part of Konoha's defense) and simply lied to Kisame using the Sanin title to scare him off.


This is BS plain and simple. I've been over the statement a million times and it makes zero sense for Itachi to make the statement the way he did if that was his objective. Not to mention their equality is support by the DB-Stat Totals and supported by other tid bits of how they are portrayed in the manga cannon.



> Unless you believe Full power Kisame and Gated Gai are that fodder to Jiraiya.


I believe Kisame was weaker in Part I. I don't know what Gate-Gai has to do with anything.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 7, 2014)

Even if you take itachi's statement literal, they still never saw jiraiya fight, so it could of been a over estimation on his part.



But what I always say is instead of using Amaterasu on the toad, itachi could of easily lit jiraiya on fire and the frog would of been dispelled anyway, not only that but kisame asked itachi why is a retreat necessary for you.



So speculating on old statements is pointless when we have up to date manga info, by now we should honestly no better, kishi makes things very clear


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## Garcher (Apr 7, 2014)

Itachi's statement back then was just a excuse so he didn't has to fight Jiraiya, remember, Itachi was one of the good guys all along.

Overall, Itachi and Kisame take this


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## Dr. White (Apr 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> > I'm sorry, but this is double standards. On one hand you want to just take a base reading of the scene; Itachi's dominance over Orochimaru, and therefore ignore the circumstances. Than on the other hand you want to go into circumstances when it makes Itachi look better, like the level of Genjutsu used. You can't have it both ways
> 
> 
> No it isn't because it is a part of the whole overall portrayal. Itachi as a teenager beat a post sanin oro with base sharingan. All of those sums equl to the greater whole of portrayal, in that Itachi beat Oro with literally zero diff and he fled akatsuki. Yeah Oro was in need of another body, but he was the same exact way throughout pt. 1, when he was attempting to get Sasuke(had to take another CS victim in the meantime to "fatten up Sauce"). Even in that timespan he was armless and still fended off two Sanin albeit with Kabuto, and ultimately having to retreat. Anyway to get to the point there was no emphasis on Oro being weakened at all he was pretty much in his prime(under 50) and in the worlds leading terrorist group. Itachi in the same group completely dominated him, and this was made utterly apparent and reiterated both before and after the scene. Look at generally, or specifically Oro is still taking that L.
> ...


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## RBL (Apr 7, 2014)

i'm not kidding with this, i've seen many people understimating itachi.

itachi without kisame's help, wins mid-diff.


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## Trojan (Apr 7, 2014)

When itachi was talking to sasuke about the uchiha and why killed them, it was stated that he was lying and the truth is otherwise. However, when it was ever stated that he was lying when he talked about Jiraiya?? Yeah, it was not. Simple as that.

or is it when we like the statement, for example what he said about his Tsukiyomi, then yeah, it's the truth, no one can break it. However, if we don't like the statement, then he surely was lying, how can he possibly say that he is weaker than some?  

I wonder since itachi said that Kabuto is a bigger lair than he is, are people willing to discredit his statement about Hashirama, or that he surpassed the other ET users, and Hiruzens hype (well, they will surely discredit Hiruzen's hype, but not Hashi's that's a given lol) 

simply, the character is lying when kishi tells us that X character was lying in that specific time, that does not
mean ALL of the statements (that his fans don't like) are lies!


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 7, 2014)

The funny thing is, itachi and kisame made there statement based off, his sanin rep, yet when another sanin,  approached itachi (oro), itachi made no such statement, or even seemed a bit concerned.

from this inconsistency its not hard to conclude something was a bit off about itachi's statement.


Either they saw jiraiya fight before hand, which we have no evidence of.

They over estimated him, which is possible but not probable based off his encounter years prior with another sanin, and he also had no back up.

or itachi didn't wanna cripple konoha, by killing there strongest ninja at the time.


Me personally I'm going with the latter based off his prior encounter with oro, and also the reveal of him being a good guy.  It's really not that hard to figure it out.


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## Dr. White (Apr 7, 2014)

New Folder said:


> > When itachi was talking to sasuke about the uchiha and why killed them, it was stated that he was lying and the truth is otherwise. However, when it was ever stated that he was lying when he talked about Jiraiya?? Yeah, it was not. Simple as that.
> 
> 
> Because you have to read every situation differently. In that case he was lying to thrive Sasuke which we as the audience had no idea about his other motives. We are informed via flashback of the truth and Obito. It's called story. Just because there was no specific narraration on the Jiraiya, Itachi case doesn't mean Itachi wasn't lying. First off the difference in time in which the scene happened, and Itachi's past was revealed was very long (Rasengan training arc - Jiraiya/Itachi's deaths.) Kishi probably forgot about it or didn't care neough to waste a panel to say "oh yeah Itachi just didn't wanna fight you cause he was really a good guy who loved Konoha" because it is obvious as hell. You are trying to create a complex question fallacy, in saying that if it wasn't specifically stated to be a lie then it automatically is the truth.
> ...


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> No it isn't because it is a part of the whole overall portrayal. Itachi as a teenager beat a post sanin oro with base sharingan. All of those sums equl to the greater whole of portrayal, in that Itachi beat Oro with literally zero diff and he fled akatsuki.


I'm sorry, but if your going to look at details such as Itachi's age and only using Three-Tome. It is only fair if we take into account  that Orochimaru also had time to improve and in-fact did not seem to have abilities back then which he did in the actual story-line.



> Yeah Oro was in need of another body, but he was the same exact way throughout pt. 1, when he was attempting to get Sasuke(had to take another CS victim in the meantime to "fatten up Sauce")


He didn't shown any signs of needing a body, until the end of Part I. 



> ). Even in that timespan he was armless and still fended off two Sanin albeit with Kabuto, and ultimately having to retreat.


He didn't fend off anything, he was quickly defeated and had to run away. Plus nether Jiriaya nor Tsunade were at their best then ether.



> Anyway to get to the point there was no emphasis on Oro being weakened at all he was pretty much in his prime(under 50) and in the worlds leading terrorist group. Itachi in the same group completely dominated him, and this was made utterly apparent and reiterated both before and after the scene..


There is a very clear indication that Orochimaru was weaker; as he'd laugh off an injury such as getting his hand cut off. Plus Orochimaru absorbs the abilities of the bodies he takes. The time line is wonky, so it's hard to say how long ago that event precisely happened, but Orochimaru certainly took at least 2 bodies since then; which means he absorbed the abilities of at least 2 Ninja after that. Than there is the issue of Edo-Tensei, it's implied he didn't have the Edo-Hokages back then, because Orochimaru implies he did that in preparation for fight Hiruzen. 



> Look at generally, or specifically Oro is still taking that L


Okay, than you need to also look at it generally instead of going into details, only when it makes Itachi look better. 

Ether we look at it generally Itachi > Orochimaru, something I've never doubted. Or we go into details on both ends of the spectrum; for Itachi & for Orochimaru.



> Really? First off it that was true then why did Oro retreat? If he could easily tank a headshot, why didn't he just summon a snake, or actually fight after? Because he knew he could not beat Itachi. So he developed his boner/buttache for sharingan.


That's my whole point the scene implies that Orochimaru lacked his regeneration back then. 



> Second a head shot whilst under the effects of genjutsu is going to kill him. He was struggling to even make a kai seal, he wouldn't have been able to body swap, or use anyother jutsu to escape. Genjutsu completely rendered him immobile.


Orochimaru doesn't need to cast Jutsu, he can just straight up reattach entire body parts after being cut in half. Not to mention the idea that a binding Genjutsu prevents one from casting all Jutsu is baseless. Orochimaru had to make a seal for Kai, that's why he couldn't cast it, in time, because the Genjutsu was restricting his physical movements. On the other hand Jutsu that don't require hand-seals he could still cast. We've seen Ninja cast Jutsu while having their body bound by Genjutsu, so long as these Jutsu don't require movement.



> Dude Kishi isn't a perfect writer. you can't just say that because you didn't like the way he went about lying that somehow that means the author/character's intent must be different.


There is a difference between expecting Kishi to be a perfect writer and expecting Kishi to not be an absolute moron. It's moronic to say you can fight equally with someone, if your objective is to justify retreating.



> At that time it was narrarated as if Itachi was evil, in which yes it would seem Itachi wasn't lying. But as we know he was really good, and wanted to protect Konoha/Kill Tobi, but most protect Sauce. So there was no reason for him to kill or fight jiraiya. Kisame was one of Tobi's men, if Itachi had made it obvious Tobi would have caught on to him. Itachi slyly uses his excuse to duck battling and making unnecessary casualties. Making his comment void of truth, as we later see what Kisame/Itachi are capable of in full scale mode.


Just because Itachi has lied in the past does not mean he was lying about everything. In-fact all of Itachi's other lies have been exposed by the author. If the author wanted us to see it as Itachi lying when making the Jiraiya statement he would have made a point to tell us that as well, just like in the case of every other lie. Instead the author goes out of his way to once again portray their equality in the Data-book. Then there is making MS-Sasuke equal Post-Senjutsu Naruto; than there is the respect Itachi shows for Sennin Modo; than there is Kishi showing Senpo Sound based techs that Jiriaya has access to being well suited to taking on Itachi. Again we'd have to assume Kishi is a moron, if he want's the take away for readers to be that Itachi is much stronger than Jiriaya.



> Why would you believe this? He had Samehada, and had been a swordsman for years (gaining Sameheda as he joined Akatsuki) in the mist Anbu. He was a veteran of Akatsuki who could take on Bjuu by himself. The reason he didn't go off in Konoha is because they didn't want to cause a huge commotion(hence them sneaking in Konoha), and Itachi ulteriorly didn't want to harm Konoha or Fire Country(and Naruto). Hell even 2 years later 30% of his chakra was spitting out lakes. What did he do those two years, that he wasn't doing with akatsuki all those years before?


- That Kisame was not past his prime since he was 29, and logically it's unlikely his skills didn't increase at all over 3 years and after quite a few battles?
- That Itachi stated Kisame fighting serious would have a tough time with Part I Kakashi, which seems counter intuitive to the way his current strength is portrayed
- Kisame stated he was completely out of Itachi/Jiriaya's league, which seems counter intuitive to the way his current strength is portrayed
- Kisame fought many individuals where he'd have a chance to pilfer large supplies of chakra, since he had that discussion with Itachi


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## Dr. White (Apr 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> > I'm sorry, but if your going to look at details such as Itachi's age and only using Three-Tome. It is only fair if we take into account  that Orochimaru also had time to improve and in-fact did not seem to have abilities back then which he did in the actual story-line
> 
> 
> .
> ...


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## Dr. White (Apr 7, 2014)

> - Kisame stated he was completely out of Itachi/Jiriaya's league, which seems counter intuitive to the way his current strength is portrayed


Jiraiya is stronger than Kisame. Kisame has nothing at all to go off of except his title of Sanin which carries great, and Itachi's word(and Itachi doesn't want to fight an ally, but can't make it obvious in front of Kisame.)



> - Kisame fought many individuals where he'd have a chance to pilfer large supplies of chakra, since he had that discussion with Itachi.


so? sucking chakra from others doesn't raise his base amount...It just replenishes him/powers him up just like Medical Ninja, or any other power up. For example Sage Naruto is faster than Base Naruto but simply having SM doesn't increase Naruto's base stats.


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2014)

@Dr. White

I wrote up a reply and than my computer crapped out on me. So i'm going to keep this brief

1) Orochimaru, was still increasing his skills from Part I to Part II of the manga. That can be seen in him upping his proficiency with Edo-Tensei. He accomplished a major improvement like that over 2.5 years and without arms to practice Ninjutsu. I have no reason to believe that over 7 Years since his fight with Itachi, in the flashback, and at least 2 bodies Orochimaru's skills did not increase at all. In-fact we literally see Sasuke attempt the same binding Genjutsu on Orochimaru, and this time it fails. We saw Orochimaru get torn in half in Part II, and reattach his body just fine, so I have no reason to assume he'd have issues if his head was chopped off; not to mention Itachi didn't even do that, so that is pointless distinction to make anyway. Orochimaru laughs at giant swords stabbed through him, his body ripped in half, etc... and i'm suppose to believe his hand being cut off decisively defeats him; sorry not buying it. And before you say, but he couldn't use abilities/jutsu while under Genjutsu, do yo know how many examples there are of shinobi using jutsu while under the effects of Genjutsu, this is including binding types as well. So that is completely unsupported by the manga-cannon, and in no way supports your stand-point.

2) Do I think the scene was suppose to demonstrate Itachi's superiority. Yes I do. However it is the same deal as with the Deidara flashback, Itachi defeated him back then with one thing. Than Deidara became stronger and it would probably take more effort on Itachi's part to defeat him the second time, despite him still being superior. It's that simple. Itachi was able to beat Pre-Manga Orochimaru with a certian Jutsu, but the second time when both got stronger the fight plays out on a higher level. As for how this pretains to the gap between them, Itachi defeat Orochimaru with his strongest technique and Kishi outright shows in the DB the gap between them is .5 difference; nothing substantial. It's denying the authors intent to consider Itachi vastly superior, it just is.

3) As for the Jiriaya statement i'm sorry, but it seems to me that your just giving me a bunch of excuses. Itachi is lying when it's not convenient for your argument and than he is wrong about his partner's strength when it's not convenient for your argument. Again if it was a lie Kishi would not have blatantly shown them to be equal once again in the DB [among other things], which makes the assertion absolutely ridiculous and dependent on the author literally being a moron. I think Kishi can be a shitty writer, but there is a limit to looking down on the author's intelligence and you've reach it, than surpassed it to the point of absurdity. There is nothing objective about arguing Itachi is better, there just isn't.

4) And yes Part I Kakashi level individuals would offer little to no support in a fight between Jiraiya and Itachi. The fact of the matter is Kakashi made it extremely clear that he was a joke in comparison to Orochimaru, who is in turn weaker than Jriaiya/Itachi. Expecting him to have some type of major impact goes against how the author directly portrayed his level in relation to these two characters.


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## Dr. White (Apr 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> > @Dr. White
> >
> > I wrote up a reply and than my computer crapped out on me. So i'm going to keep this brief
> 
> ...


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Oro was still in his prime he had everything but Edo Tensei in short. Big Whoop. Why do you think everyone keeps growing at an exponential rate? They don't....there are certain people like Naruto, Sasuke, Lee, etc who grow bit by bit as they uild on their moves, but Oro was already a sanin who was part of the prestigous Akatsuki and age wise was in his prime.
> .


Once again Orochimaru increased his skill from Part I to Part II (2.5 years) despite lacking arms, why the hell should I believe he didn't increase his skill over 7 years when he had arms.



> *There are feats of no one using Jutsu while under genjutsu.* You can either dirupt your flow with a Kai, reverse/counter with your own genjutsu(shown by Itachi, Kurenai, etc), or have someone or something else break you free. It was clear Oro would have been fucked if he cut his head off. Sasuke's genjutsu even after earning MS wasnt close to Itachi's. Itachi was gaining steps towards his brother and this was a parallel.


Dr.White, do you not read the manga? I mean it's actually a serious concern of mine after seeing this post:
*bellyflop*
*bellyflop*
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There are probably even more examples I didn't think of.



> -Itachi would rape Diedara, the same. Hebi Sauce beat him, MS Itachi is gonna rape that young boy.


Itachi would defeat Deidara, but not as easy as he did in the flashback, which is my point.



> Oro always is shown as inferior to Itachi, even the perfect version of Oro in Kabuto got trumped despite extreme advantages.


Fanboy nonsense, is what this is.



> It isn't my fault you can't comprehend this.


Oh I comprehend it just fine. You'd rather believe the author is blithering idiot than accept the actual manga cannon.



> then you are crazy. Kakashi knew they were on different plans, but oro wouldn't have babyshook him. If you honestly think Kakashi wouldn't make a difference along with Itachi then we should never debate anything ever again pertaining to Naruto. apparently we read to different mangas.


I can't fathom how you think Orochimaru wouldn't have stomped Part I Kakashi.


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## Dr. White (Apr 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> > Once again Orochimaru increased his skill from Part I to Part II (2.5 years) despite lacking arms, why the hell should I believe he didn't increase his skill over 7 years when he had arms.
> 
> 
> How the hell did Oro get stronger over the time skip? The only thing Oro uprgraded from the beginning of the series until now was his research, and ET. Everything else has been the same in his skillset. Don't see what they heck you're talking about really/
> ...


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> How the hell did Oro get stronger over the time skip? The only thing Oro uprgraded from the beginning of the series until now was his research, and ET. Everything else has been the same in his skillset. Don't see what they heck you're talking about really/


How the hell did Oro get strong, proceeds to cite how Oro got stronger 



> this is hypnotic genjutsu, not binding. Zabuza did not counter.


Dr. White, "There are feats of no one using Jutsu while under genjutsu."

Sorry, but I don't see shit in that statement about type of Genjutsu mattering; you just said Genjutsu in general. 

Now let's go back one post. 

Dr. White, "No you have to be able to control your chakra flow to mold chakra and use jutsu. Genjutsu disable your chakra flow, and is then controlled by your opponent. This is academy 101."

This example alone completely proves this point wrong as well, which once again is you just talking about how Genjutsu works in general; not a specific type.

So where is the evidence that binding Genjutsu has this ability?



> Here is a binding jutsu, now tell me HOW DID SHIKAMARU ALLOW HIMSELF TO USE HIS SHADOW. He had to break his chakra flow, b inducing pain upon himself. He then just feigned the rest, and caught her slipping.



If he couldn't use Jutsu how the f did he use his shadow to break his finger  

[





> the point is that without something inside him to heal him(like how Kyuubi saved Naruto from chidori) Oro cannot save himself from decapitation once bound. If his head got lopped off he could not communicate to his body, think, or use chakra. Even Hidan need Kakuzu to string his head backtogether. Itachi could have lopped his head off burnt it with Ama and called it a day.


Ugh....my brain hurts. Even back then Orochimaru was released from the Genjutsu the moment Itachi caused him pain by cutting his hand off. So Itachi cutting his head off would release him from the illusion, than he'd re-attach.



> Hebi Sauce caught him with a 1 layered Genjutsu. Itachi can multi layer and genjutsu people with sharingan. Not sure Diedara can avoid getting gensoloe'd.


Turrin, "Itachi would defeat Deidara again, but it would be more difficult"
Dr White, "He wouldn't have more difficulty, he'd just need a more advanced Jutsu than the one he used to first time he defeated Deidara"


Ugghhhhh..........................That is MORE DIFFICULTY THAN THE FIRST TIME 



> Oro always is shown as inferior to Itachi, even the perfect version of Oro in Kabuto got trumped despite extreme advantages
> .


Dr. White, "What fanboy nonsense you talking about?" 

  



> I-So it isn't manga canon


Nope a good bit of what you said is not manga cannon. 

What is manga cannon is that Itachi stated he is <= Jiriaya, and no once did Kishi ever take that statement back, instead he confirmed it again by making there total abilities roughly equivalent in the DB. Learn to live with it.



> He wouldn't have. Beat? Yeah, stomp? Nah.


Should I make the thread Part I Orochimaru vs Part I Kakashi, and put a poll in it.



> Pt. 1 Kakashi would be negligble in a fight like Hashirama and Nagato, not Itachi vs Jiraiya. If you think he makes no difference


Are you kidding me. You need to be Hashirama level for Part I Kakashi to not make a major impact. 



> and Itachi saying o backup would help either party i the end you are simply stupid, bias or both.


Yeah clearly the person going off what is stated by the character himself and the author reiterates in the DB is biased. It's not the guy ignoring both these things in favor of his fanfiction about how Itachi was lying and his belief that Kishimoto is a moronic idiot for making the DB also reflect equality when he wants fans to see Itachi as much stronger. Yup, for sure....


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## Mercurial (Apr 7, 2014)

Itachi blitzes Jiraiya and cuts his throat, base Jiraiya is slow and without good reflexes, Itachi is a Sharingan precog gifted speedster. Itachi also plays with Jiraiya's mind as he wishes with genjutsu, Jiraiya even intentionally didn't avoid his eyesight, inspite of knowing about his Sharingan. Totsuka GG.

And for part 1 Kakashi... .


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 8, 2014)

It amazes me to see that people can't comprehend a children's  Manga when the author makes it so clear for us.


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