# Strongest shinobi Sasori can beat with Iron Sand prepped



## Matty (Apr 19, 2015)

So Sasori to me is an underrated character (I have bias as he is also one of my favorites along with Itachi and Kakashi)  but I am not stupid... I know he's not god tier or near top tier, I think he is an extremely intelligent guy (probably the smartest next to Shikamaru) who maximizes all of his strengths by poisoing everything he's got while attacking erratically and unpredictably to get any non puppet master completely off guard and blindsided all the while sufficiently covering his one true weakness. To me he is a Mid Kage ninja. I can understand why people tend to say Low Kage and I can also understand why people havee said hes a mid-high kage.

So aside from that rant I was just wondering who you guys think the strongest person Sasori could beat 1v1 starting out with the 3rd Kazekage with Iron Sand already prepped.

Area: Grassy field
Knowledge: None for either
Mentality: IC with intent to kill
Prep: None besides his Iron Sand and the obvious soaking of everything in poison.

Who can he beat?


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 19, 2015)

Make sure you add in *distance*, how far apart the opponents start is also important.

Considering Chiyo reacted to Iron Sand's fastest variants from arguably 10m away, a common BD distance (50m) would severely hinder Sasori's chances of hitting most speedsters.

That being said, with knowledge that it's poisoned, experience with Sasori's fighting style (Chiyo) and antidotes Sasori still managed to poison Chiyo to death. 

Without knowledge that Sasori even uses poison he could probably manage to scratch someone like Mei, as I don't think Mei could dodge it for long and I don't think she'll open with her most powerful technique immediately (Suiton Dragon) without knowledge on Sasori's power scale.


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## Rocky (Apr 19, 2015)

He's Mid Kage, so they strongest he could consistently take down would be another on that tier. It's dependent upon match up. People that he can't scratch (like a Raikage) or those with poison resistances will generally give him the work.

Under these conditions, I'd say the strongest he takes is Pain-Arc Naruto. He'd have issues reaching Sage Mode in an open field against Iron Sand spam. Furthermore, Naruto isn't one to think several steps ahead, so chances are he does end up getting caught off guard and scratched.

Gai is another Sasori could take in a scenario without knowledge. I'm not confident that Gai would open any gates prior to being pushed like he was against Kisame. If Gai goes into the fight with that mindset, he'd end up getting pricked too.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 19, 2015)

Prep usually isn't an issue for Sasori, as Satetsu isn't really that difficult or time-consuming to access and he can comfortably stall with other puppets if he needs to.

In general, Sasori's best kill would be Deidara or any of the Sannin. With Satetsu prepped, I don't see that changing.


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 19, 2015)

kisame, deidara & kakashi


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## Rocky (Apr 19, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> In general, Sasori's best kill would be Deidara or any of the Sannin. With Satetsu prepped, I don't see that changing.



I don't see poison putting down Tsunade or Orochimaru, and Jiraiya just summons a toad on top of him


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 19, 2015)

Pain-arc Naruto is a low ball for Sasori, Rocky, and that's coming from a guy who thinks he's the one of the slowest/weakest in the Akatsuki.

Base Naruto without knowledge would literally run at Sasori with two bunshin and a Rasengan and get scratched.

I don't see why he'd even attempt to enter SM without knowledge.


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## Rocky (Apr 19, 2015)

That's why Sasori would win...because he possesses the ability to end the fight before Sage Mode or really _any_ of Naruto's big boy jutsu come into play.

That doesn't make Naruto weak. Pain-Arc Naruto is on par with the Sannin. He's essentially Jiraiya with less versatility & experience, but _way_ more firepower and the Kyubi x-factor.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't see poison putting down Tsunade or Orochimaru, and Jiraiya just summons a toad on top of him



Orochimaru may or may not have resistance to Sasori's poison (the latter did say it was a complex formula); even with resistance, Orochimaru's offense is pitiful and his stamina doesn't come close to Sasori's. Tsunade has no natural resistance (that we were ever informed of), no antidotes, and probably can't extract the poison and fight Sasori at the same time. Jiraiya's Yattai Kuzushi can simply be evaded as long as Sasori isn't ignorant and cocky enough to stay put when Jiraiya leaps into the air over him, and I'd also question if that would be enough to kill Sasori (whose body could withstand Sakura's punches) anyway. And then Jiraiya himself is lacking resistance to poison, which means one scratch and he's fucked.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 19, 2015)

Pain-arc SM Naruto is not on par with the Sannin. He can only maintain SM for 2 Rasenshurikens. With prep (2 bunshins in Frog Land) he's on their level or slightly above it. 

With knowledge Orochimaru & Tsunade can outlast his 2-FRS SM with Katsuya & Leech all Creation/Eight Branches, Jiraiya can arguably kill him with a Yomi Numa and Frog Oil Flame Bullet combination, depending on the start distance. If it's close I believe Naruto takes it, if it's far Jiraiya can get him. 

In base I think Oro & Jiraiya beat Naruto before he enters SM with Leech all creation blindside & Yomi Numa, but he can enter it against Orochimaru if he summons a large number of clones initially.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 19, 2015)

I personally doubt Iron Sand would hit Deidara considering Deidara could easily dance around Team Gai whlie being crippled. I also recall Sakura reacting to it, so I don't see how a faster foe such as Deidara would be caught by the attack.


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## Matty (Apr 19, 2015)

I will say distance is the same as when Naruto fought Pain

Yea I feel the Sannin get disrespected and underrated now that so many extremely powerful people have come in the later arcs. I'm not sure he could beat any of them consistently but I do think he would give them a hell of a fight.

I feel like since he is immune to Genjutsu he has a chance to do damage to Itachi (My other favorite shinobi) and could possibly win if Itachi isn't fully healthy. I don't think he's all around better than Itachi or that he'd win a ton against him just saying he is his worst nightmare assuming the genjutsu doesn't effect him, which I personally don't think it does. But I think his best win he could achieve might be guys like Kisame, Kakashi (assuming he doesn't kamui the shit out of him) Mei, MAYBE Pain and a base B with no Hachibi, although that could just be my fanboy in me talking.

All in all I think he's one of those guys that are a bit haxx because of his ridiculous arsenal of poison and then puppet body equipped with flame throwers, rotating blades and a cable that can launch at anyone. I feel like Taijutsu users may seem like they have an advantage but with no knowledge the second they get close the cable comes out and they are done if it scratches them, along with those blades. And not to forget the 100 puppet technique. Although, he still does have some flaws for sure.

And again, not trying to be a fan boy, just trying to analyze all of his strengths and weaknesses that could be used against powerful opponents.


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## Rocky (Apr 19, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Orochimaru may or may not have resistance to Sasori's poison (the latter did say it was a complex formula); even with resistance, Orochimaru's offense is pitiful and his stamina doesn't come close to Sasori's. Tsunade has no natural resistance (that we were ever informed of), no antidotes, and probably can't extract the poison and fight Sasori at the same time. Jiraiya's Yattai Kuzushi can simply be evaded as long as Sasori isn't ignorant and cocky enough to stay put when Jiraiya leaps into the air over him, and I'd also question if that would be enough to kill Sasori (whose body could withstand Sakura's punches) anyway. And then Jiraiya himself is lacking resistance to poison, which means one scratch and he's fucked.



Orochimaru's offense is composed of gigantic snakes fully capable of crushing Sasori's puppets, and I haven't a clue what he's supposed to do against the Yamata no Orochi technique. I don't think Sasori has the defense to survive long enough to where Orochimaru runs out of stamina.

I remember something being said about Tsunade being able to counteract every poison Chiyo ever concocted on the fly, but even without that, Byakugo is a thing. Sasori will also struggle to do anything to the slug because it doesn't care about being shredded. He can dodge acid, but that creates opening for Tsunade.

Sasori would probably try and attack Jiraiya in midair rather than run away if Jiraiya were to leap over him. From there, the weight of the toad should crush Sasori's body, including the heart canister. I think Sasori would also lose to the burning oil attack Jiraiya used on Manda.



DaVizWiz said:


> SM Naruto is not on par with the Sannin. He can only maintain SM for 2 Rasenshurikens.
> 
> With knowledge Orochimaru & Tsunade can outlast his SM with Katsuya & Leech all Creation/Eight Branches, Jiraiya can arguably kill him with Yomi Numa and Frog Oil Flame Bullet.



Let's look at what Naruto did before his Senjutsu Chakra ran out. In order:


Large Shunshin
Rasengan
Kage Bunshin x2
Odama Rasengan x2
Futon: Rasenshuriken
Rasenrengan

He also performed a bunch of taijutsu alongside all of that. That right there is enough Sage Mode to beat Orochimaru & Tsunade. I don't know what Leech all Creation is supposed to do, and Naruto oneshots the Hydra with Rasenshuriken. He also oneshots Tsunade with FRS while using toads to fight Katsuyu.

Jiraiya would probably kill Naruto before he reached Sage Mode though.


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## Matty (Apr 19, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I personally doubt Iron Sand would hit Deidara considering Deidara could easily dance around Team Gai whlie being crippled. I also recall Sakura reacting to it, so I don't see how a faster foe such as Deidara would be caught by the attack.



Well first off sakura really wasn't dodging much. In the beginning I can count the times she  had to be saved by chiyo. She also was constantly on chakra string in the beginning, fae it without chiyo Sakuras reflexes meant nothing. Hiruos tail was an inch away from her face because Chiyo was a boss and put chakra threads on the tail and on sakura. So I don't think sakura's reaction skills really hold much merit, especially since she ended up getting hit by Satetsu.

Now I agree Deidara has better maneuverability, but from my memory Satetsu world order starts pretty high in the air with erratic patterns raining down. I also wouldn't consider Deidara anywhere near as intelligent as Sasori and I can see Sasori just getting at least one great opportunity, if nt more, to just simply scratch Deidara


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## Turrin (Apr 19, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> . To me he is a Mid Kage ninja. I can understand why people tend to say Low Kage and I can also understand why people havee said hes a mid-high kage.


Him being Low-Kage is not understandable, story-wise. He defeated the strongest Kazekage, and became stronger by adding said Kazekage to his arsenal. He solo'd and entire country. Deidara, a Low-Kage, admitted Sasori was stronger than him. He would have defeated Chiyo + Sakura w/ antidotes, if not for emotional reasons, and Chiyo herself is Low-Kage. Had some of the best DB Stats alongside the Sannin and Itachi. Everything about Sasori places him at Mid-Kage, and at the upper end of that "tier". And he's possibly even stronger than that depending on how strong Sandaime-Kazekage really was.



> So Sasori to me is an underrated character


Sasori is underrated, because Sasori never had a real fight. Chiyo and Sakura faced him under highly beneficial circumstances and still he never went all out, because he fucked up due to emotional reasons allowing himself to be killed by Father and Mother Puppets, before he could use the lions share of his 298 Puppets. So because Sasori never got to fight to the point where he actually played his best hand and still lost, people underrated him for various reasons. I can see where they are coming from, but I can't empathize with their narrow view point because I believe the manga makes it extremely obvious he is incredibly powerful for the above reasons.



> 1v1 starting out with the 3rd Kazekage with Iron Sand already prepped.


Sasori doesn't even really need this advantage as it doesn't take much for him to pull Sandaime-Kazekage out [it's an act of Space-Time after pulling out the scroll, so it's very quick] and most Shinobi will be off guard after smashing Hiroku anyway. Just saying.



> So aside from that rant I was just wondering who you guys think the strongest person Sasori could beat 1v1


The strongest he could possible beat is Edo-Jinchuuriki Rikudo, if the black Rods are really metal and Sandaime-Kazekage puppet can rip them out. But that's not really a reflection of his true standings, it's just an example of really a match up that could be really unbalanced, due to total and complete type mismatch; and even than it's not guaranteed, as they might not be magnetic metal. 

With that aside, he could beat lots of characters. For possessing such an easy win condition [scratching the enemy], Kishimoto made Sasori extremely versatile. Satetsu trolls any kind of metalic weapons, which is a major problem for fighters like Minato and Tobirama that rely on these weapons to set up strategic warp points. Having to fight someone like Sasori who has high stamina and can cover the battlefield with wide AOE attacks like Kaihou and 100 Puppets, while having most of their warp points sealed off, will be a tricky fight for them I could see them loosing; albeit I could easily see Sasori loosing as well. 

Sasori's inhuman puppet body also makes him immune to Genjutsu, so highly skilled characters that rely majorly on this could find it difficult to deal with Sasori, like Itachi, Shisui, and Danzo; especially in the case of the latter two considering how otherwise over-powered Kotoamatsukami is against everyone else. Someone like Killer-B who was so easily scratched by Itachi's Shuriken I could easily see being defeated by Sasori's tricky poisoned weapons and Satetsu if he's not careful, and if poison effects Bijuu, his Hachibi mode could also be his downfall considering how big of a target it makes him. Someone like Sandaime-Raikage whose otherwise immune to physical attacks could have major issues with Sasori, as Satetsu imo has enough piercing power to at least scratch the guy and from there poison hard-counter his durability. If Gaara's sand control is really Jiton, he could be in huge amount of trouble against the Sandaime-Kazekage puppet, if said puppet can tamper with the magnetism he's using to hold his sand together.  Anyone whose unaware of Sasori's heart-container being his weak spot  and puppet body swaping could easily be scratched after believing they've defeated Sasori. We saw how effective convincing the enemy your defeated was, when it came to allowing Pain to ambush Sage-Mode-Jiraiya. 

Granted I wouldn't call any of these for sure victories, but I like Sasori's odds of winning some of the time, especially depending on conditions.

And Sasori is just plain broken in a team setting, which is why I think Kishimoto needed to bring him back w/o any Puppets as an Edo, as he'd just fuck the alliances shit up, if they had to worry about not being scratched by his Techniques, while at the same time dealing with an entire opposing army.


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## Rocky (Apr 19, 2015)

Turrin said:
			
		

> Edo-Jinchuuriki Rikudo



Who......?


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## Turrin (Apr 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Who......?


The Jinchuuriki Paths Obito controlled.


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## Rocky (Apr 19, 2015)

Ah, gotcha.


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## Veracity (Apr 20, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Orochimaru may or may not have resistance to Sasori's poison (the latter did say it was a complex formula); even with resistance, Orochimaru's offense is pitiful and his stamina doesn't come close to Sasori's. Tsunade has no natural resistance (that we were ever informed of), no antidotes, and probably can't extract the poison and fight Sasori at the same time. Jiraiya's Yattai Kuzushi can simply be evaded as long as Sasori isn't ignorant and cocky enough to stay put when Jiraiya leaps into the air over him, and I'd also question if that would be enough to kill Sasori (whose body could withstand Sakura's punches) anyway. And then Jiraiya himself is lacking resistance to poison, which means one scratch and he's fucked.



Tsuande would run through Sasori and dominate him without problems. She's naturally resistant to pretty much everything(( evident by he fact that she remains conscious and on her toes after taking attacks that would kill any ninja... And that's without any regeneration and Rusty)) and I'm betting she could fight with the poison in her system for several minutes. Not to mention Byakago itself completely negates poison, so it's not like that matters anyways.. Also bet she could outright dodge any of his techniques considering she's a better evasive ninja than Sasori Arc Sakura and substantially faster/more reflexive. She hard counters Sasori and dominates him with Katsuyu for back up. 

* Rocky also added the fact that she could hard counter any of the high tiered poisons Chiyo could make immediately.


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## Matty (Apr 20, 2015)

Ok I am still a noob. I have looked at tons of these so it wasnt too hard of a transition to actually join and start posting. I just have to get used to making decent threads and not have mismatches. But clue me in on something really quick. What does AOE mean?

And Turrin major props on your answer. Naturally as a Sasori and Itachi fanboy XD I always like hearing people on the same side as myself iinstead of trashing him because he lost to chiyo (who i think is a boss) and sakura who maybe isnt the best but she is definitely one of the more competent leaf shinobis and a top notch medical ninja

Edit: Just so everyone knows though I'm not so blind fan... I mean I see people on here thinking their favorite characters have a chance to beat Madara. Gotta be realistic


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## Veracity (Apr 20, 2015)

AOE = Area of Effect


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## Jad (Apr 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He's Mid Kage, so they strongest he could consistently take down would be another on that tier. It's dependent upon match up. People that he can't scratch (like a Raikage) or those with poison resistances will generally give him the work.
> 
> Under these conditions, I'd say the strongest he takes is Pain-Arc Naruto. He'd have issues reaching Sage Mode in an open field against Iron Sand spam. Furthermore, Naruto isn't one to think several steps ahead, so chances are he does end up getting caught off guard and scratched.
> 
> Gai is another Sasori could take in a scenario without knowledge. I'm not confident that Gai would open any gates prior to being pushed like he was against Kisame. If Gai goes into the fight with that mindset, he'd end up getting pricked too.



Let's just say Gai get's poisoned, and he knows it (since it would be pretty noticeable), would he just not go all out? It isn't an instant death, it's slow. Pretty sure Chiyo got hit by the poison and stayed alive long enough to revive Gaara if I am remembering correctly.


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## Rocky (Apr 20, 2015)

I'm pretty sure the poison paralyzes you.


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## Jad (Apr 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm pretty sure the poison paralyzes you.



Are you challenging me Rocky?


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## Icegaze (Apr 20, 2015)

I would like to say kudos +rep to Turrin post

I dont think sasori can rip them out however. what i believe he can do is if satetsu hits them. even if it doesnt kill them it would disable them,as they would be magnetized and prevented from moving. as sasori did to 2 of chiyo puppets. 

However the strongest sasori should beat are people like deidara,kakuzu, hebi sasuke 

Anyone with a proper defense or overpowering offense or speed should take on sasori

I firmly disagree with satetsu being able to scatch the sandaime raikage though. people like him should violate sasori without trying


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## Bonly (Apr 20, 2015)

Yeah my man Sasori tends to get underrated due to he lost against(mainly due to Sakura ) but the strongest that comes to mind would be the Sandaime Raikage or Deidara or Pain depending how that turns out


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## Icegaze (Apr 20, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Yeah my man Sasori tends to get underrated due to he lost against(mainly due to Sakura ) but the strongest that comes to mind would be the Sandaime Raikage or Deidara or Pain depending how that turns out



 
how can he beat sandaime raikage?
he cant even scratch him. sandaime cloaks up and can very simply, walk up to sasori and kill him 

if in base he is goign through mabui teleportation that ripped tsunade, the same woman who is tanking kusanagi which is a legendary sword capable of hurting enma who is as hard as diamond 

how are sasori attacks even supposed to harm or touch base sandaime

RNY sandaime seriously trolls with neg squared difficulty


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## Bonly (Apr 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> how can he beat sandaime raikage?
> he cant even scratch him. sandaime cloaks up and can very simply, walk up to sasori and kill him
> 
> if in base he is goign through mabui teleportation that ripped tsunade, the same woman who is tanking kusanagi which is a legendary sword capable of hurting enma who is as hard as diamond
> ...



*Poison Gas*. With that Sasori doesn't need to scratch the Sandaime to poison him.


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## Deer Lord (Apr 20, 2015)

No knowledge on sasori is deadly.
in such a scenario he has a good shot of defeating any mid-kage that does not have any good method of defense.
That includes: kisame, the sannin, and possibly living itachi if genjutsu is indeed ineffective against him.

Can't see him defeating anyone stronger than Oonoki/Sage naruto tho.


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## Rocky (Apr 20, 2015)

Bonly said:


> *Poison Gas*. With that Sasori doesn't need to scratch the Sandaime to poison him.



Why would Sandaime Raikage stand in or breath in the poison gas.


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## Bonly (Apr 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Why would Sandaime Raikage stand in or breath in the poison gas.



Why did that fodder from Shino clan let himself be controlled by Sasori?


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## Rocky (Apr 20, 2015)

Don't really know what you're talking about, but bringing up Sasori doing something to a fodder ninja probably has no relevance in a discussion about the Biju-wrestling Raikage.


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## Icegaze (Apr 20, 2015)

Bonly said:


> *Poison Gas*. With that Sasori doesn't need to scratch the Sandaime to poison him.



that implies it can be used before sasori is trolled
also the only time sasori used poison gas was after his military hands technique 

i dont see either catching sandaime before sandaime breaks sasori appart and sees his cannister which deidara called obvious weak point


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## Matty (Apr 20, 2015)

I'd like to throw someone out there and have you guys discuss it because I believe he can beat the first but probably ot the second. Although I believe he can have a shot at both: Hiruzen Sarutobi and Tobirama. Now personally I think Tobirama would ultimately stomp, especially if he can Edo Tensei, hell even without ET he probably stomps, but hiruzen I think Sasori, though he would lose most likely, still has a chace to beat him with his large arsenal and obvious intelligence (DB rated him 5)


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## Icegaze (Apr 20, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I'd like to throw someone out there and have you guys discuss it because I believe he can beat the first but probably ot the second. Although I believe he can have a shot at both: Hiruzen Sarutobi and Tobirama. Now personally I think Tobirama would ultimately stomp, especially if he can Edo Tensei, hell even without ET he probably stomps, but hiruzen I think Sasori, though he would lose most likely, still has a chace to beat him with his large arsenal and obvious intelligence (DB rated him 5)



how new are u at this?
if by the first u mean the first hokage
hashirama neg diffs to infinity sasori and will low diff an army of sasori's 

tobirama simply low diffs him 

with what hiruzen showed sasori should beat him yes, with high diff though 

however please dont mention the first in the same sentence as sasori. sasori is lower an infant sasuke compared to shodai. 

actually closer to a spec of dust compared to hashirama


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2015)

I don't know why people think Satetsu can't scratch Sandaime, when Temari Fuuton-Net did. Sandaime is durable, but if your saying massive slabs of pointed Iron weighing tons and shot at the speed of sound, can't even scratch the guy we have serious problems.


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## Matty (Apr 20, 2015)

NOOOOOOOOOOO hahahaha I meant when I said he can beat the first but prob not the second i was leading up to who i was going to say: Hiruzen and Tobirama. I think Hashirama is light years ahead of most characters in the show. I just meant since i said Hiruzen and tobirama, Hiruzen was the "first" one that I mentioned. It was all just a dramatic lead up  sorry for the confusion. And it would be incredibly stupid if I thought Sasori could beat Hashirama but lose to Tobirama XD


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## Icegaze (Apr 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I don't know why people think Satetsu can't scratch Sandaime, when Temari Fuuton-Net did. Sandaime is durable, but if your saying massive slabs of pointed Iron weighing tons and shot at the speed of sound, can't even scratch the guy we have serious problems.



it wasnt just temari's though 
it was temari with backup 

also what i was saying is RNY raikage cant be scratched by sasori. he sees iron sand he cloaks up and lolz at it

what i am saying is RNY raikage can not only dodge it with nasty ease, if he willingly ran into it. he will destroy it on impact. 

i dont know why u assume raikage wont cloak up. when him and his son use their cloaks as the basis of their fighting style. nin taijutsu users 

even when controlled by kabuto and set to auto defense the first thing he did was cloak up to break out of gaara sand

Sasori is sooo far away from his level. Sasori best bet is to find people like kakuzu and all those mid kage level ninja because once he finds anything on MS sasuke level or above he gets low diff'd


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## Rocky (Apr 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I don't know why people think Satetsu can't scratch Sandaime, when Temari Fuuton-Net did. Sandaime is durable, but if your saying massive slabs of pointed Iron weighing tons and shot at the speed of sound, can't even scratch the guy we have serious problems.



It's never scratched anything on his level of durability. Like four alliance Futon users teamed up and cut Base Sandaime with an element specifically designed to cut people. I don't know how one takes that feat and uses it to claim that RCM Raikage can be cut by Iron Sand, especially when the wounds he received from Futon were minor.

Raikage can dodge most of Sasori's techniques anyway, but still, nothing we've seen from Sasori has convinced me that he's pierce the 3rd.


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## Matty (Apr 20, 2015)

I don't know if MS Sasuke Low dif Sasori... 

He's gonna destroy Sasori without taking one scratch?

Yea hes got Susanoo, can counter with poison gas, if he gets close for CqC thats probably the stupidest consiering his puppet body blades, wire, flamethrowers.

His sword is useless with iron sand. Can he survive a world order without a scratch?

Sharingan can't detect his heart I am pretty sure only Rinnegan and Byaakugan can. And on top of that genjutsu is useless, although sasuke doesn't seem to use much or at least as much as Itachi

Not saying Sasue won't win, but low dif? Come on, pretty sure that's just a common underrating of sasori. His DB stats were pretty much Itachi level (he was 34.5 Itach 35.5)


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## FlamingRain (Apr 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nothing we've seen from Sasori has convinced me that he's pierce the 3rd.



Could _this_ _thing_ scrape him?

Assuming it ever hit him, that is.


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## Rocky (Apr 20, 2015)

Maybe, but I'm more inclined to think that we'd see something similar to what happened when Orochimaru stabbed Yonbi Naruto with the Kusanagi Sword. All that thing did was tear through rock.

Though as you inferred, something like that probably wouldn't hit him in the first place.


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I don't know if MS Sasuke Low dif Sasori...
> 
> He's gonna destroy Sasori without taking one scratch?
> 
> ...



with susanoo sasuke will never get scratched by sasori 
sharingan can see chakra therefore he will see the heart cannister 

2 arrows and sasori is done for 

iron world order X10 wont help him breach even V1 susanoo. sasuke violates. poison gas is fun and all but sasuke has no reason to come close. he can just keep shooting susanoo arrows which sasori can never evade 

like i said 2 arrows GG


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 21, 2015)

> Let's look at what Naruto did before his Senjutsu Chakra ran out. In order:
> Large Shunshin
> Rasengan
> Kage Bunshin x2
> ...


Substituting those inferior techniques for a loss of Rasenshuriken, he indeed can only maintain SM for 2 FRS by his own canonical admission. He'd be better off throwing another Rasenshuriken then wasting time with those other techniques against the average Kage-level and/or army. 



> He also performed a bunch of taijutsu alongside all of that. That right there is enough Sage Mode to beat Orochimaru & Tsunade. I don't know what Leech all Creation is supposed to do, and Naruto oneshots the Hydra with Rasenshuriken. He also oneshots Tsunade with FRS while using toads to fight Katsuyu.


He threw a Rhino and then Frog Kata'd Preta's jaw, that's literally two taijutsu maneuvers in a span of arguably a minute. 

Leech All Creation allows Orochimaru to leech into the ground and blindside opponents unsuspecting from behind, it also protects him from being targeted by Base Naruto. Madara utilized a similar technique against Tsunade, and it resulted in a Susano Blade blindside, penetrating through her back & torso and spiking her on it. 

There isn't any amount of summons in the verse (save Kurama/GM) that can "stall" 5% Katsuya. They do nothing to her, she tanks all of their attacks and maintains her position without the slightest challenge. FRS also does not kill her. 

The question isn't whether Naruto would beat them in his limited-time SM, the question is whether Pain-arc Naruto is Sannin-level.

He is not, he can only maintain a form that warrants Kage-level status for a few minutes, and his techniques in that form aren't so much more powerful that the Sannin's own techniques aren't comparable (Byakugo/5% Katsuya, Eight Branches & 6 Boss Snakes & LaC, Jiraiya is self explanatory), it's not like Gai in Gates, who is superior to Pain-arc SM Naruto before even eclipsing the 6th Gate, Gai's short-span mode is so powerful that he could be considered on their level because he produces results so immaculate in that short time. 

Putting Pain-arc Naruto into a different situation, say perhaps on a battlefield, he is not even remotely close to the efficiency of a Sannin. Within minutes he's back in base and completely useless in protecting his allies, while Tsunade protects/heals/strengthens the entire army with Katsuya&Byakugo, Orochimaru dominates the battlefield with Snakes & Eight Branches, and Jiraiya dominates the battlefield with Senjutsu: Yomi Numa, Goemon, Frog Oil Flame Bullet & maintained Kage-level Sentaijutsu. 

Pain-arc SM Naruto has a short-span mode that allows him to transcend to Kage-level, The Sannin are walking-talking Kage-levels 24/7 and can maintain that power level on a battlefield for a significant time. 



> Jiraiya would probably kill Naruto before he reached Sage Mode though.


He would, because he's Kage-level even in base, and he can also maintain SM and has techniques somewhat close to FRS' power scale (Senjutsu: Yomi Numa, Senjutsu: Goemon).


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

Pain arc SM naruto is about as strong as the sanin 

the sanin have better techniques. not stronger but better techniques that allow them to fight on par with him 

especially for 5 mins


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> that implies it can be used before sasori is trolled
> also the only time sasori used poison gas was after his military hands technique



So do you agree that the Sandaime can be poisoned by the gas *if* he got caught?


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It's never scratched anything on his level of durability. Like four alliance Futon users teamed up


It never failed to pierce something of a lesser defense tho. So all we can go on is how strong it should be, and based on that I feel that saying it only scratches him is pretty fair.



> and cut Base Sandaime with an element specifically designed to cut people. I don't know how one takes that feat and uses it to claim that RCM Raikage can be cut by Iron Sand, especially when the wounds he received from Futon were minor..


It had an elemental affinity over RNY, not Raikage. So excluding RNY, it was able to scratch Raikage's Skin. And no I don't think a Fuuton weaker than Kiri Kiri no Mai, used by Temair and a bunch of Fodder is above the penatrive powers of more massive Satetsu's attacks. We are talking about an object with massive weight being thrown at someone at incredibly high speeds.

So the distinguishing thing would have to be the added defense of RNY, but I have some doubt about how great of a defense RNY really is. It's feats consist off blocking a casual Raiton-Flow strike from Sasuke's sword, and failing to completely block Chidori. Both of which are Raiton techniques, and there is some implication that Raiton when clashed with Raiton diffuses itself more effectively, like when Sasuke takes Darui's Suiton + Raiton combo. That and the implication that Minato's Kunai slash would have at least got through Ei's RNY. 



> Raikage can dodge most of Sasori's techniques anyway


I think that is more of a discussion off evasion than tanking. However I think given the amount of Iron-Sand Sasori was generating very quickly that it would get to the point where Raikage, couldn't dodge after Sasori gathers enough. Granted Raikage could destroy the Kazekage puppet before than, but I don't think Sasori's odds to win against Sandaime are very good anyway, as Sandaime is really one of his worst match ups sans if someone is directly immune to his poison.


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## Rocky (Apr 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> It never failed to pierce something of a lesser defense tho. So all we can go on is how strong it should be, and based on that I feel that saying it only scratches him is pretty fair.



There's no way to really tell what would happen, but I'll give you the point.



> It had an elemental affinity over RNY, not Raikage. So excluding RNY, it was able to scratch Raikage's Skin. And no I don't think a Fuuton weaker than Kiri Kiri no Mai, used by Temair and a bunch of Fodder is above the penatrive powers of more massive Satetsu's attacks. We are talking about an object with massive weight being thrown at someone at incredibly high speeds.



Well for one, I never said Futon had the advantage over the 3rd himself. I said that it was designed to cut people. 

That specific Iron Sand attack was heavy, but it wasn't _that_ fast, else Chiyo wouldn't have had time to pull Sakura out of the way.

Like I said, I guess there's no way to say either way. I personally felt that the Raikage's hype combined with the defenses of the cloak would be enough to avoid injury (assuming he doesn't just dodge it).



> So the distinguishing thing would have to be the added defense of RNY, but I have some doubt about how great of a defense RNY really is.



In Base, the 3rd received minor wounds from the fodder-combo, but while wearing the cloak, he received comparably minor wounds from FRS. That has to count for something. 

Minato's Kunai going through A's armor would have to mean that his Kunai slash was above Sasuke's Chidori Katana, which is only possible if Minato was flowing Futon through it or something...



> but I don't think Sasori's odds to win against Sandaime are very good anyway, as Sandaime is really one of his worst match ups sans if someone is directly immune to his poison.



Okay, I agree.


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Well for one, I never said Futon had the advantage over the 3rd himself. I said that it was designed to cut people.


But so are certain Satetsu attacks, so to me that cancels out.



> That specific Iron Sand attack was heavy, but it wasn't that fast, else Chiyo wouldn't have had time to pull Sakura out of the way.


I think you haveto bare in mind that Chiyo was predicting attacks based on Sasori's finger motions to control the Kazekage-Puppet and she was extremely knowledgable about Satetsu. I'm not saying that attack hits Sandaime, but going off Chiyo's reactions is not a good measure of the speed of these techniques, as she wasn't reacting to the attacks so much as Sasori's finger-movements, which is not something I expect Sandaime or really many character to be able to predict.

I think it would take larger Satetsu attacks to hit Sandaime, which I believe Sasori is capable off as he continued to gather much more Iron-Sand over time.



> In Base, the 3rd received minor wounds from the fodder-combo, but while wearing the cloak, he received comparably minor wounds from FRS. That has to count for something.


I think having cracks all over his body is more than what Temari + Fodder's attack did, which amount to a single scratch along part of his upper chest.



> Minato's Kunai going through A's armor would have to mean that his Kunai slash was above Sasuke's Chidori Katana, which is only possible if Minato was flowing Futon through it or something...


Or Minato's striking strength is just better than Sasuke's, just like i'm sure Mifune's IAI strikes are far above Sasuke's.



> Okay, I agree.


Cool


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

Bonly said:


> So do you agree that the Sandaime can be poisoned by the gas *if* he got caught?



sure so can juudara 
everyone can be poisoned 

however sasori cant pull that off 

against someone much faster than himself

am confused Turrin are u talking about the 3rd or 4th raikage?

u seem to be tallking about the 4th for some reason 

the 3rd with RNY can basicaly walk into satetsu and destroy it. FRS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>satetsu


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sure so can juudara
> everyone can be poisoned



Which means Sasori can beat the Sandaime upon which you asked how. Glad you can agree. 



> however sasori cant pull that off
> 
> against someone much faster than himself



There's multiple times when people who are faster then another character still managed to get hit by something/someone not as fast as them so if you're only defense is "hurr durr he's faster" to suggest Sasori can't catch him period then you're defense isn't holding up well to me when the Sandaime hasn't shown to much of anything impressive movement speed wise in the first place.


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Which means Sasori can beat the Sandaime upon which you asked how. Glad you can agree.
> 
> 
> 
> There's multiple times when people who are faster then another character still managed to get hit by something/someone not as fast as them so if you're only defense is "hurr durr he's faster" to suggest Sasori can't catch him period then you're defense isn't holding up well to me when the Sandaime hasn't shown to much of anything impressive movement speed wise in the first place.



dodging guided FRS twice. is obviously impressive wouldnt u say 

i should rephrase its far far more likely for sandaime to beat sasori than for sasori to beat sandaime when sasori has only 1 way to catch sandaime and its with poison gas

that btw he had to hold sakura down with ropes to make it effective. 

how do u suggest he holds sandaime down?

sandaime actually cant be caught by it. he simply steam rolls


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> dodging guided FRS twice. is obviously impressive wouldnt u say



He reacted to that by slightly moving his body and jumping. That's not the same as his normal running speed which Dodai was able to react to when the Sandaime was coming from behind after destroying the platform, Dodai was able to make a *rubber ball* and *saved Naruto*. So while the Sandaime's reactions and slight movement are fast , his normal running speed hasn't been shown to be too impressive, at least not IMO.



> i should rephrase its far far more likely for sandaime to beat sasori than for sasori to beat sandaime when sasori has only 1 way to catch sandaime and its with poison gas



That's better though I think Satetsu might be able to touch the Sandaime opening up more options but meh.



> that btw he had to hold sakura down with ropes to make it effective.
> 
> how do u suggest he holds sandaime down?
> 
> sandaime actually cant be caught by it. he simply steam rolls



Chakra strings have been shown to control people and objects and Sasori has shown that he can make 100 chakra strings if he wants so with those he'd have a shot a holding the Sandaime for a moment to catch him off guard or trip the Sandaime or things of that nature.


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

Bonly said:


> He reacted to that by slightly moving his body and jumping. That's not the same as his normal running speed which Dodai was able to react to when the Sandaime was coming from behind after destroying the platform, Dodai was able to make a *rubber ball* and *saved Naruto*. So while the Sandaime's reactions and slight movement are fast , his normal running speed hasn't been shown to be too impressive, at least not IMO


.

so he tilts his body and avoids FRS but somehow u want to imply his physical speed isnt impressive. 
the jumps and avoids a rare attack without even looking



> That's better though I think Satetsu might be able to touch the Sandaime opening up more options but meh.



it touchign sandaime is futile. it wont even slow him down at all. he will run through it. very simply. need i repeat FRS>>X1000>> satetsu
which failed to breach chiyo lol chakra shield




> Chakra strings have been shown to control people and objects and Sasori has shown that he can make 100 chakra strings if he wants so with those he'd have a shot a holding the Sandaime for a moment to catch him off guard or trip the Sandaime or things of that nature.



chakra strings have been shown to control beaten down injured fodder. or sakura willingly being controlled

now if u think someone that wrestled a bijuu can be physically restrained by sasori then u havent been reading naruto at all

sandaime steam rolls without even realizing sasori was a threat. he amps, straight nikute. breaks though everythign sasori included. 

sees cannister stabs it. ze end. the guy is a solid tier above with a defense that allows him to basically run though sasori jutsu without attempting a dodge which he can pull off. but wouldnt need to


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> .so he tilts his body and avoids FRS but somehow u want to imply his physical speed isnt impressive.



Yes his running speed isn't to impressive.



> the jumps and avoids a rare attack without even looking



The Sandaime *looked backed* when he dodged the second FRS attempt.



> it touchign sandaime is futile. it wont even slow him down at all. he will run through it. very simply. need i repeat FRS>>X1000>> satetsu
> which failed to breach chiyo lol chakra shield



If it made contact with the Sandaime's skin and touch/scratch him, he'd be poison and that's not futile. 



> chakra strings have been shown to control beaten down injured fodder. or sakura willingly being controlled



Chakra strings have been shown to controlling many more times, lets not start downplaying now.



> now if u think someone that wrestled a bijuu can be physically restrained by sasori then u havent been reading naruto at all



Can you show me the Sandaime physically wresting the Bijuu to suggest he used his physically strength and that physically strength alone to do such a thing instead of relying on his jutsu or are you just hoping on Rocky's dick and copying what he said?



> sandaime steam rolls without even realizing sasori was a threat. he amps, straight nikute. breaks though everythign sasori included.



Can you prove that his mindset would have him fight in such a way when he has no knowledge? 



> sees cannister stabs it. ze end.



Just like Chiyo and Sakura's first thought was to stab it? Can you prove that he would aim to stab it as soon as he see's it?



> the guy is a solid tier above with a defense that allows him to basically run though sasori jutsu without attempting a dodge which he can pull off. but wouldnt need to



I have no clue how you rank your tiers if you find the Sandaime to be an entire tier above but I'd disagree there but can you prove that he would think to just tank the attack rather then dodging it?


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## Icegaze (Apr 21, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Yes his running speed isn't to impressive.



KCm naruto said sandaime is fast. the rest is moot



> The Sandaime *looked backed* when he dodged the second FRS attempt.



fair enough he dodged FRS. which itself is a fast attack 



> If it made contact with the Sandaime's skin and touch/scratch him, he'd be poison and that's not futile.



to make contact with his skin it would have to go through RNY which it cant



> Chakra strings have been shown to controlling many more times, lets not start downplaying now.



feel free to show this many times. 
was only shown controlling damaged fodders
and sakura who was willingly letting herself be controleld



> Can you show me the Sandaime physically wresting the Bijuu to suggest he used his physically strength and that physically strength alone to do such a thing instead of relying on his jutsu or are you just hoping on Rocky's dick and copying what he said?



dodai implied he could straight knock out KCM naruto with a punch. kishi had dodai say that for a reason. also fighting a bijuu to exhaustion while only using taijutsu would imply some physical strength. then we have hachibi saying the guy could take a hit



> Can you prove that his mindset would have him fight in such a way when he has no knowledge?



raikage use RNY off the bat. no knowledge and set on auto defense while controlled by kabuto 
the first thing he did to get out of gaara sand was use RNY 



> Just like Chiyo and Sakura's first thought was to stab it? Can you prove that he would aim to stab it as soon as he see's it?



deidara calling it an obvious weak point perhaps. also if he fails on the first attempt then the second should be obvious. sasori without poison gas bascially cant do anythign to harm the raikage. 

he needed to hold sakura down with ropes while using his poison gas. so poison gas isnt landing




> I have no clue how you rank your tiers if you find the Sandaime to be an entire tier above but I'd disagree there but can you prove that he would think to just tank the attack rather then dodging it?


[/QUOTE]

poll it. if u dont agree. have others tell u

the ability to tank FRS, fight hachibi to exhaustion, be hyped as the man with the best defense and legendary sword (nikute) 
clearly puts him well above sasori. 

unless u think sasori can stand against a rampaging hachibi without being trolled. 

then again KCM naruto quickly resorted to attempting to use BD against sandaime raikage.

portrayal puts him well above. 

his jutsu makes him an auto counter to sasori. his body allows him to run straight through and impale sasori. which is the basis of nikute. read the DB


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> the ability to tank FRS, fight hachibi to exhaustion, be hyped as the man with the best defense and legendary sword (nikute)
> clearly puts him well above sasori.


I'll add a vote right here. Sandaime-Raikage is not "well-above" Sasori. Defeating Hachibi is a great accomplishment, but I'm really not sure if it's better than beating the strongest Kazekage, and than gaining that Kazekage's power becoming even stronger. Sandaime taking on 10,000 shinobi is also impressive as hell, but so is Sasori soloing an entire country. And both have a considerable amount of hyped hax abilities, but Sasori is actually more versatile; though that could be because Sasori had more panel time than Sandaime-Raikage [though not really that much more]. So I'm not sure whose stronger, I think Sandaime wins more often than not, because he's a bad match up for Sasori tho. But anyway, I certainly do not believe Sandaime is much stronger than Sasor and whatever tier Sandaime is on, Sasori is certainly part of that tier.


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## Matty (Apr 21, 2015)

Ok here is a quick off topic question. I think we can safely assume Tobi and Pain are 1,2 on the akatsuki list. Now personally I think sasori can beat Itachi but that doesn't make Itach lower than Sasori on the list. It just means Sasori is a bad matchup, and even so I don't think he beats Itachi more than 6/10

So if Akatsuki ranks start with Tobi, Pain, Itachi is Sasori 4th? Or will you put Kakuzu, Kisame, Konan, Deidara above him? 

Again this is not based on perceived weaknesses (Kisame cutting Sasori's chakra threads, which I still don't know if it is true.) It's based on sheer power, and versatility. I have seen many lists, some where Sasori is as high as 3 and as low as last or just above Zetsu


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## Bonly (Apr 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> KCm naruto said sandaime is fast. the rest is moot



Never said he wasn't fast, just said he hasn't shown much impressive which he hasn't.



> to make contact with his skin it would have to go through RNY which it cant



Indeed.



> feel free to show this many times.
> was only shown controlling damaged fodders
> and sakura who was willingly letting herself be controleld



Chiyo was shown controlling samurai(as an Edo). Chiyo was shown controlling Sasori's tail(Sakura vs Chiyo). Kankuro controlling samurai armor to save them(Taka vs Kumo). Sasori controlling Sai's brother(Ambush squad fight). Ect.



> dodai implied he could straight knock out KCM naruto with a punch. kishi had dodai say that for a reason.



That's neat but that doesn't imply that he has some "Bijuu wrestling" physical strength. 



> also fighting a bijuu to exhaustion while only using taijutsu would imply some physical strength.



You failed to answer my question so again, can you prove that he used nothing but Taijutsu when fighting Gyuki? 



> then we have hachibi saying the guy could take a hit



I don't remember that being said though if that was said then that wouldn't really fit with having monster strength but more so when it comes to durability/resilience.




> raikage use RNY off the bat. no knowledge and set on auto defense while controlled by kabuto
> the first thing he did to get out of gaara sand was use RNY



Exactly, set on auto defense aka not completely his own free will and to top it off after he used the Raiton armor to free himself *he went right back to base* when he and the French Dude ran towards the group of fodder. Sorry but not proof of how he fights on his own.



> deidara calling it an obvious weak point perhaps.



And I ask you again, why didn't Sakura and Chiyo think of that the moment they saw it? Deidara was Sasori's partner for god knows how long and likely knew what the core was, the Sandaime doesn't have that knowledge 



> he needed to hold sakura down with ropes while using his poison gas. so poison gas isnt landing



Well good thing he has multiple chakra strings to help him out.




> poll it. if u dont agree. have others tell u



What are you fucking twelve lol. Do you think I care how many people agree or disagree with me? Is that suppose to scarce me or make me care? EL OH EL. 



> the ability to tank FRS, fight hachibi to exhaustion, be hyped as the man with the best defense and legendary sword (nikute)
> clearly puts him well above sasori.



Lol nope. Sasori had beaten the strongest Kazekage and gain the most dangerous weapon Suna had, he took down an entire country, he is the only one able to make human puppets which means he can make puppets that can use jutsu, Sasori has 298 puppets in his arsenal and himself to use, Sasori can use 100 puppets at once when the number of puppets one can use shows their skill(or something like that), one hit can damn near stop you in your tracks and end you in a few days, had Deidara admit he was stronger, ect.. Sandaime didn't tank FRS and in the same chapter that he was hype for "the best defense"(as you say) he had it broken through then he had Naruto say Gaara's defense was better. Portrayal overall wise puts the Sandaime and Sasori on the same general tier



> unless u think sasori can stand against a rampaging hachibi without being trolled.



Seeing as how Sasori has poison and one hit is gonna screw over Gyuki(the big target he is), I'd say Sasori is more likely to be the one doing the trolling here.



> his jutsu makes him an auto counter to sasori. his body allows him to run straight through and impale sasori. which is the basis of nikute. read the DB



That's neat but he's not immune to poison and with no knowledge, Sasori has a decent shot of getting him with his arsenal.


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## Puppetry (Apr 22, 2015)

Hmm. I wouldn't say Satetsu prep isn't a significant boon, but I also wouldn't say it would cause Sasori to leap up a few power tiers, mainly because I give his intelligence and agility more credit than most here.

Any of the Sannin, Kisame, Deidara would fall against this version of Sasori, I think, though I don't think his odds are terrible when starting in Hiruko. Perhaps he fairs slightly better against the likes of Tobirama and Minato, but he can't consistently come out victorious facing either.


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> So if Akatsuki ranks start with Tobi, Pain, Itachi is Sasori 4th? Or will you put Kakuzu, Kisame, Konan, Deidara above him?


It's hard to linearly rank some Akatsuki. Nagato and Obito are clearly the strongest and it's not even close imo. However than it becomes tough. Kisame is weaker than the other two, unless he's hopped up on Bijuu chakra, in which case he's equally as dangerous, if not possibly more so, depending on the quantity of chakra. However due to Kisame's reliance on having access to high chakra quantities to reach this "level", I'd overall put him beneath Sasori and Itachi, as his strength is less reliable so to speak. 

When it comes to Itachi and Sasori. Itachi's strength fluctuates depending on the severity of his illness and blindness, at the worst we've seen [Hebi-Sasuke Fight], I think there is a compelling argument to be made that Sasori is stronger, considering Itachi just exposes to many openings in that fight for me to believe he's capable of quite fighting up to Sasori's caliber. However on the other hand when Itachi is in better condition, like in Part I, his strength versus Sasori's is much more debatable and closer, and when he's at his best condition thx to Edo-Perks, he's probably stronger than Sasori. So the rankings really become, based around whether were talking individual ability or just raw might. If it's individual ability than I wouldn't count Edo-Perks, because that isn't Itachi's ability, but if it's just raw-might than I would, and i'd place Edo-Itachi above Sasori, though still not by huge margin.

After that I think Kakuzu is an easy placement above the others, though I expect some will disagree, but his elemental blasts are not only make him dangerous like the others, but lack the highly  exploitable vulnerability that Deidara's Kibaku-Nendo has. After him would come Deidara and followed by him is Hidan, as Hidan is clearly the weakest [though I do believe he is often underestimated].

That leaves Konan and Zetsu, but not because they are necessarily weaker, but because I find them to be too difficult to rank. Konan we never got to see really fight under normal conditions in the manga. Her first fight was against someone who had the perfect knowledge and Jutsu to exploit her weakness. When she fought against Konoha she did all of it with a Kami-Bushin, so there's not much to derive from that besides her being stronger than the Aburame's considering that her Kami-Bushin was putting up a good fight against them. And in her third fight she was godly, but she was also highly advantaged by prep and location. Because of this we don't have answers to important questions that would determine her placement, such as:

1) How Great of a Quantity of Paper can she conjure up in battle, and how quickly can she generate said paper
2) Can she Generate Explosive Tags or Does she carry them and if so how many
3) What is the extent of her Genjutsu and Elemental Jutsu skills, both of which she seems indicated to be skilled at; even more so in regards to Genjutsu
4) How effective are Ninjutsu and Genjutsu against her Kami-Angel-Form

Depending on the answers to these questions, she could be anywhere from bellow Deidara, to up there with Sasori and Itachi, though I think the latter obviously requires all of the above questions to be answered greatly in her favor.

Zetsu, never had a real fight period and the guy seems to fluctuate from Chojiro getting the better off him [albeit he was distracted by Naruto's FRS] to merking Juubidara, so who the fuck knows as far as he's concerned.

One thing I will say is that Konan and Zetsu are both better than Hidan at least.

So I'd probably do the ranking this way:

1. Obito [Juubi  ]

2. Nagato

3-5. Itachi, Sasori, Kisame* [* because he needs to chakra pumped way high to be here]

4. Kakuzu

5. Deidara

6. Hidan

? [but > Hidan]. Konan
? [but > Hidan]. Zetsu


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 22, 2015)

Healthy Orochimaru w/o Edo Tensei would be my guess.
I don't think his "immunity to poisons" would work against this one, considering Sakura needed to create a complex antidote to reverse its effects. Bar Manda, his summons are going to be pushed back rather easily, and the boss summon is just a larger target for Satetsu - not to mention it doesn't cooperate with Oro all the time - so that would ultimately be problematic. Unless we use the energy-based attack from Ultimate Ninja Storm 2 as basis, Yamata no Orochi doesn't have much going for it. Sword of Kusanagi is used in a manner that tries to reach the opponent, and that is exactly what Orochimaru should avoid doing. Being his main tool of offense, I don't see why he'd choose differently. Sasori also has Orochimaru beat in the stamina department, so a drawn-out battle isn't going to end well for him. It's impossible to say what effect Hashirama's cells left on him, but I doubt it's anything great; his proficiency in Mokuton is unknown, as well.

Do I think Orochimaru can beat Satetsu w/o Edo Tensei? No, I really don't. He's arrogant; too reliant on his sword; quite stationary; and he'd likely get poisoned early on. Granted, he did lack Ninjutsu throughout most of the series due to his arms. There's no way to determine how powerful his nature transformations actually are, though, despite being able to use all five.


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## Matty (Apr 22, 2015)

Turrin I would have to agree. I couldn't put sasori above Itachi. Not that Sasori couldn't beat him. I just think Itachi has more ways to kill him. Although I think the big factor is genjutsu. Doesn't work on Sasori so that could be an advantage. But still Itachi overall is just better


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## Icegaze (Apr 22, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Never said he wasn't fast, just said he hasn't shown much impressive which he hasn't.



slower characters with slower reactions avoided satetsu. sandaime doesnt acknowledge it as a valid attack



> Indeed.



ok



> Chiyo was shown controlling samurai(as an Edo). Chiyo was shown controlling Sasori's tail(Sakura vs Chiyo). Kankuro controlling samurai armor to save them(Taka vs Kumo). Sasori controlling Sai's brother(Ambush squad fight). Ect.



sandaime was shown running through 20 or so fodder with 4 finger nikute i guess that means he can run through sasori 20 times. 
controlling those things with puppet strings=/= controlling holding or even remotely slowing down the raikage
when people like omoi can cut chakra strings 



> That's neat but that doesn't imply that he has some "Bijuu wrestling" physical strength.



fair enough he doesnt need it. sandaime>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>chiyo chakra shield



> You failed to answer my question so again, can you prove that he used nothing but Taijutsu when fighting Gyuki?



can u prove a taijutsu based fighter used somethign else. was this implied. 
the only tech we saw in the flash back was nikute a taijutsu. 




> I don't remember that being said though if that was said then that wouldn't really fit with having monster strength but more so when it comes to durability/resilience.



try read the manga




> Exactly, set on auto defense aka not completely his own free will and to top it off after he used the Raiton armor to free himself *he went right back to base* when he and the French Dude ran towards the group of fodder. Sorry but not proof of how he fights on his own.



so ur excuse is he might not win because he willingly wouldnt use RNy upon seeing satetsu and would want to get hit



> And I ask you again, why didn't Sakura and Chiyo think of that the moment they saw it? Deidara was Sasori's partner for god knows how long and likely knew what the core was, the Sandaime doesn't have that knowledge



so ur implying sandaime will aimlessly keep breaking sasori apart? and not notice the cannister. even through trial and error he destroys it



> Well good thing he has multiple chakra strings to help him out.




which have no feats of holding down or slowing down any kage level opponent



> What are you fucking twelve lol. Do you think I care how many people agree or disagree with me? Is that suppose to scarce me or make me care? EL OH EL.



no but ur 5. the butthurt child who thinks he has a point despite popular opinion being clearly different



> Lol nope. Sasori had beaten the strongest Kazekage and gain the most dangerous weapon Suna had, he took down an entire country, he is the only one able to make human puppets which means he can make puppets that can use jutsu, Sasori has 298 puppets in his arsenal and himself to use, Sasori can use 100 puppets at once when the number of puppets one can use shows their skill(or something like that), one hit can damn near stop you in your tracks and end you in a few days, had Deidara admit he was stronger, ect.. Sandaime didn't tank FRS and in the same chapter that he was hype for "the best defense"(as you say) he had it broken through then he had Naruto say Gaara's defense was better. Portrayal overall wise puts the Sandaime and Sasori on the same general tier



he could have poisoned him. ambushed him. we have no idea. so the beat the strongest kazekage. holds little water. because despite having said kazekage power to his own. 
he can still get 1 panelled by most high tier



> Seeing as how Sasori has poison and one hit is gonna screw over Gyuki(the big target he is), I'd say Sasori is more likely to be the one doing the trolling here.



bijuu hakimichi. followed by BD. seriously . sasori being abel to beat gyuki. 



> That's neat but he's not immune to poison and with no knowledge, Sasori has a decent shot of getting him with his arsenal.



no need to be. satetsu will have to breach defenses. which is doubtful seeing a mere chakra shield blocked it


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Turrin I would have to agree. I couldn't put sasori above Itachi. Not that Sasori couldn't beat him. I just think Itachi has more ways to kill him. Although I think the big factor is genjutsu. Doesn't work on Sasori so that could be an advantage. But still Itachi overall is just better


I think the amount of ways they have to kill each other is heavily dependent on what incarnation of Itachi we talk about. Hebi-Sasuke fight Itachi, i consider Sasori to have more opportunities to kill him no matter what, because with his eye-sight problems preventing him from avoiding a trab-shuriken and his health issues preventing him from avoiding Katon tech, I think a number of Sasori's techniques have a high chance of scratching him before Itachi can down Sasori.

If it's a healthier Itach it depends on to what degree he exposes the openings he did in the Hebi-Sasuke fight, if it's to a much less degree or rather it he can fight much longer before those openings become apparent than it could go ether way, if that's not the case than he might still be on the losing end. I say it could go ether because if it's no knowledge, even w/o those openings, avoiding being scratched w/o knowledge is still a tall order, though it's also a tall order for Sasori to avoid Amaterasu and Susano'o w/o knowledge. With knowledge it will depend on how well each uses their skills. If Sasori uses Satetsu in a more defensive Gaara style manner, than he can protect himself from Amaterasu and Susano'o to a certain extent and use that extra time to attempt to scratch Itachi. However Itachi will have an easier time avoiding being scratched w/ knowledge of the poison.

Than if it's Edo-Itachi, his ability to spam his MS Techs a-lot more would make things much more difficult than Sasori. Granted Sasori is lucky he his poison ignores Edo-Regen and Sasori's moves will still be dangerous, but the extra freedom Itachi has with his MS Jutsu would probably lead to his loss more times than Itachi's.

Edo-Itachi > Sasori ≈ Healthier-Itachi > Hebi-Sasuke-Fight-Itachi >>>> Edo-Sasori

Though this is just talking about Raw-Strength, in terms of individual ability, I'm not sure Itachi was ever above Sasori, as his Edo-form is simply stronger because he enjoyed all of Edos perks, while Sasori enjoyed some perks, but was much more handicapped than buffed, and I wouldn't consider Edo-Tensei perks ethers individual ability anyway.


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## Icegaze (Apr 22, 2015)

Turrin the sickest version of itachi only need use V1 susanoo to troll sasori 
sasori cant harm him while he is using it

while he can utterly destroy sasori


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Turrin the sickest version of itachi only need use V1 susanoo to troll sasori
> sasori cant harm him while he is using it
> 
> while he can utterly destroy sasori



If living Itachi uses Susano'o, Sasori doesn't have to harm him, because Susano'o itself harms Itachi. 

As for Sasori being helpless against Susano'o, If he uses Satetsu like Gaara's Sand, he will be able to block Susano'o's strikes or escape out of range off them w/ flight. He can also go from beneath Susano'o with Satetsu as Gaara did to Madara with his Sand. One needs to remember that Satetsu is just a better version of Gaara's Sand, and can therefore be used in all the same ways [but better], depending on the practitioners creatively and skill with manipulating Satetsu. Whether Sasori acts that way or not IDK, but if were just talking about him having a chance, than he does, it just depends how effectively he uses Satetsu.

But overall, Sasori's most clear avenue to victory is not over-powering Susano'o, it's scratching Itachi before Itachi uses Susano'o or during times when he does not use Susano'o. Which how sick Itachi is 100% matters, as at his sickest he was being hit by techniques and traps that pale in comparison to what Sasori is capable off.

So sure if Itachi pulls out Susano'o things get tough for Sasori, but things are tough for Itachi from the onset.


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## Icegaze (Apr 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> If living Itachi uses Susano'o, Sasori doesn't have to harm him, because Susano'o itself harms Itachi.



this implies sasori can get away and stall long enough. u must explain how u believe he can 



> As for Sasori being helpless against Susano'o, If he uses Satetsu like Gaara's Sand, he will be able to block Susano'o's strikes or escape out of range off them w/ flight. He can also go from beneath Susano'o with Satetsu as Gaara did to Madara with his Sand. One needs to remember that Satetsu is just a better version of Gaara's Sand, and can therefore be used in all the same ways [but better], depending on the practitioners creatively and skill with manipulating Satetsu. Whether Sasori acts that way or not IDK, but if were just talking about him having a chance, than he does, it just depends how effectively he uses Satetsu.



but thats not how he uses satetsu . 
why assume he can. might as well assume gaara can use his sand the way sasori does. 

sasori would have a chance if his name were gaara and he used sand like gaara. sadly he doesnt. he is all about scratchign the target. gaara is about crushign. very different uses. 

now sasori is smart enough to change tactic. but then if he were why not do so against chiyo and sakura. would have been much easier to go with how gaara uses his sand to troll them



> But overall, Sasori's most clear avenue to victory is not over-powering Susano'o, it's scratching Itachi before Itachi uses Susano'o or during times when he does not use Susano'o. Which how sick Itachi is 100% matters, as at his sickest he was being hit by techniques and traps that pale in comparison to what Sasori is capable off.



itachi knowing sasori is a puppet user goes straight for the safe option. susanoo so i dont get scratched. 
yes he was being hit by lower level techniques. but not while he was using susanoo



> So sure if Itachi pulls out Susano'o things get tough for Sasori, but things are tough for Itachi from the onset.



if he pulls out susanoo sasori does become helpless because he isnt gaara. 

its no different from me assuming itachi susanoo grows legs so sasori cant attack from under. 

since clearly legged or PS suanoo isnt some EMS based technique

cant assume sasori can do things liek gaara while assuming itachi cant do things liek others 
cant have it both ways Turrin


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## Alucardemi (Apr 22, 2015)

Considering he could make Satetsu into bullets, pyramids, spikes, wings, cuboids, using it to hamper a puppet's movements(like Gaara once did with Madara) and finally Kaihou, I'd say he could very well use those bulky forms as shields if he so desired. For instance, he instantly turned the tip of his pyramid into a spear that could completely obliterate the cave they were in with the speed and weight of its pronged extension.

Say, if he combines the pyramid and the cuboid, he could very well use it as a shield -- thinking of a shape optimal for that -- against an oncoming high-strength attack, and it likely wouldn't ge through to him, considering Sakura's punch didn't even dent the iron(although it threw it back towards Sasori when in cuboid shape).

Make a wall of iron dented into the ground, say similar to Rashomon, and I don't doubt that Sasori's defense would be extremely high. The Iron Sand is the Sand's most dangerous weapon, remember? That means even more-so than Shukaku, right? Its use for defense is as obvious as its use for offense.

Thing is, Sasori didn't really need defense against Chiyo and Sakura. He was the one hammering them.


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> this implies sasori can get away and stall long enough. u must explain how u believe he can


No just using the technique for any period of time harms Itachi



> but thats not how he uses satetsu .


You have no way of knowing that, considering Sasori only used a few moves with the Kazekage that were prudent to that situation.



> why assume he can. might as well assume gaara can use his sand the way sasori does.


No the more apt example would be assuming Gaara can only use his sand in the ways he showed in a single battle.



> sasori would have a chance if his name were gaara and he used sand like gaara. sadly he doesnt. he is all about scratchign the target. gaara is about crushign. very different uses.


None of what I cited had to do with scratching and crushing.

Using Satetsu to defend would come down to forming it into a defensive shape. We saw Sasori forming the Satetsu into solid shapes for offensive strikes, so there is no reason he can't do it for defense; fuck the DB even says Kessho can produce any shape; "Because the source is Iron Sand, the shapes can be whatever the user wants", "By taking into account the opponent type and battle arena terrain, the best attack shape can be selected.". Using Satetsu to fly away, comes down to making the Iron-Sand float, we saw Sasori do that multiple times, so there is no reason he can't use his sand for flight. And so on.



> now sasori is smart enough to change tactic. but then if he were why not do so against chiyo and sakura. would have been much easier to go with how gaara uses his sand to troll them


Because Sasori was on the offensive against them and never knew he needed to be on the defensive until it was too late. 



> itachi knowing sasori is a puppet user goes straight for the safe option. susanoo so i dont get scratched.
> yes he was being hit by lower level techniques. but not while he was using susanoo


 Itachi pulls out a life-draining and eye-sight raping technique the moment he see's a puppet. No way in hell he does that right from the jump.



> its no different from me assuming itachi susanoo grows legs so sasori cant attack from under.
> 
> since clearly legged or PS suanoo isnt some EMS based technique


Yeah and why exactly is it not an EMS-Based technique? But inherently these are different things. The things I'm citing are skills Sasori has already shown w/ Satetsu, just using them in different ways.. Susano'o growing legs is an entirely new ability, which indeed we've only seen EMS users be capable of.


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