# Ino vs. Hinata



## Lace (Sep 30, 2013)

Their stats are pretty even I think...??? Might be a good match up. What do you guys think?


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 30, 2013)

We need specifics.

Location:
Distance:
Knowledge:
Mindset:


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 30, 2013)

It ends in sex.














Giggity.


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## Lace (Sep 30, 2013)

Location: Konoha training grounds? 
Distance: Mid-range
Knowledge: Can you be a little more specific here? It's kinda vague.
Mindset: Both calm and prepared mindset.

Honestly if you'd like you can fill in your own versions...it'd be interesting to hear the different criteria that needs to be met for each one of them to win on separate occasions 



I Am Probably Wrong said:


> It ends in sex.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I second this


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 30, 2013)

Knowledge is how much information an the each Shinobi has. So if you wanted for Ino to know all of Hinata's tricks, but Hinata not to know anything about Ino, you would put "Knowledge: Full for Ino, None for Hinata." I think you want them to have only the knowledge they have in the Manga, in which you would put "Knowledge:Manga."

And Ino wins pretty handily, by the way.


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## Bonly (Sep 30, 2013)

Depends on the distance. With Ino's increase speed with Shintenshin Hinata not likely gonna dodge it and Ino can finish off Hinata Fu style or something akin to that but if Hinata is able to get into CQC then I can see Hinata landing a deadly blow or two for the win.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 30, 2013)

The distance is mid-range, so Hinata really can't get into CQC.


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## Coppur (Sep 30, 2013)

Due to the distance, Ino can easily hit Hinata with a mind transfer and end it, however if Hinata were somehow able to close the gap Hinata takes it, but like I said before, due to the distance, Ino wins fairly easily.


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## wooly Eullerex (Sep 30, 2013)

*OP forgot the steep cliff for Ino to utilize*

hinata wins. she dodges the ninjutsu & pancakes Ino.

the distance doesn't matter since yamanaka no jutsu is linear & perceivable by hinata.
And it wouldn't be faster than a low level shunshin anyway, so...


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## Lace (Oct 1, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> hinata wins. she dodges the ninjutsu & pancakes Ino.
> 
> the distance doesn't matter since yamanaka no jutsu is linear & perceivable by hinata.
> And it wouldn't be faster than a low level shunshin anyway, so...



What about Telepathy no justsu or her Shinten no clone jutsu?? 
Hinata would certainly have more of an edge if they were fighting close range.....I think it'd be tough to predict who would come out of top then


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## Naiad (Oct 1, 2013)

Hinata cant avoid a shintenshin! Its too fast. In cc hinata has the upper hand but ino isnt helpless,anyway if the battle starts midrange,hinata wont be able to touch ino! one step towards ino and she is possessed.


Shintenshin Fuu style


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## ueharakk (Oct 1, 2013)

until ino actually hits someone who is aware of her aware of her presence with shinten no jutsu, she doesn't hit hinata with it and hinata wins this fight.

In ever instance that she has used that jutsu it's with the aid of another person, or against a stationary target.  That doesn't give her the ability to hit someone who's trying to dodge the jutsu, has the byakugan and can attack from long range (air palm).

I think ino is definitely portrayed as being a superior shinobi to hinata, but that's only when she's on a team not when in direct 1 vs 1 combat.


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## Lace (Oct 1, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> until ino actually hits someone who is aware of her aware of her presence with shinten no jutsu, she doesn't hit hinata with it and hinata wins this fight.
> 
> In ever instance that she has used that jutsu it's with the aid of another person, or against a stationary target.  That doesn't give her the ability to hit someone who's trying to dodge the jutsu, has the byakugan and can attack from long range (air palm).
> 
> I think ino is definitely portrayed as being a superior shinobi to hinata, but that's only when she's on a team not when in direct 1 vs 1 combat.



See Ino vs. Sakura Chunin exams  which shows that Ino is capable of forcing a moving target into stationary mode. Plus it's been said that the speed of her shintenshin has improved. Also she is a sensor so dodging air palm would be a simple task for her. 
Ino also has some skill in taijutsu seen through her possesion of the white zetsu's during team 10's battle with Asuma. I think CC would be the only way Hinata would have an edge if the two battled it out


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## ueharakk (Oct 1, 2013)

Anlaced said:


> See Ino vs. Sakura Chunin exams  which shows that Ino is capable of forcing a moving target into stationary mode.


yeah at the cost of her hair a move hinata has not only seen, but would never fall prey to since she sees the chakra in ino's hair and even if caught, can blow the hair off with her juuken.



Anlaced said:


> Plus it's been said that the speed of her shintenshin has improved. Also she is a sensor so dodging air palm would be a simple task for her.


speed of her shintenshin improving =/= hitting a target that knows its coming and is trying to dodge when even with the improved speed she still has only hit stationary targets with the aid of outside help.

sensing an attack =/= being able to dodge it it just makes dodging easier..  Air palm seems like a very fast attack as no one has yet to dodge it, it's never used with assistance, and we've pretty much seen it land in the same panel that it is cast.



Anlaced said:


> Ino also has some skill in taijutsu seen through her possesion of the white zetsu's during team 10's battle with Asuma. I think CC would be the only way Hinata would have an edge if the two battled it out


Sure she has skill, but not enough to put her on the level of someone who has the byakugan and has the most dangerous taijutsu style in the leaf who also has at least similar physical stats to ino.


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## Naiad (Oct 1, 2013)

Hinata cant even move a step forward to Ino,she has no speed to dodge it if she is rushing at her! Airpalm is easily dodged by ino either,so hinata would HAVE to come close. Shintenshin covers hundred of metres in an Instant by feats. midrange is a rape.

are you argueing with feats or with hype? in case of Taijutsu ino has clearly the better feats compared to Hinata. Hinata was never seen fighting a Taijutsuexpert Jonin unlike Ino who had a conversation ongoing, meanwhile and thats what makes that feat even more impressive; she wasnt 100% focused and could still hold her self against Asuma.
Even Later when she gained controll over the Zetsus she was able to force him on the defence. latest thing we saw of hinata was barely succeeding in a taijutsu that Neji as genin was easily able to perform. i dont want to compare genin Neji to Asuma as opponents


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## Lace (Oct 1, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> yeah at the cost of her hair a move hinata has not only seen, but would never fall prey to since she sees the chakra in ino's hair and even if caught, can blow the hair off with her juuken.



Ino's certainly crafty enough to think of something and using her surroundings to her advantage....plus it's been shown that the byakugan can be fooled and Ino is versatile enough to come up with some creative solutions.





ueharakk said:


> speed of her shintenshin improving =/= hitting a target that knows its coming and is trying to dodge when even with the improved speed she still has only hit stationary targets with the aid of outside help.
> 
> sensing an attack =/= being able to dodge it it just makes dodging easier..  Air palm seems like a very fast attack as no one has yet to dodge it, it's never used with assistance, and we've pretty much seen it land in the same panel that it is cast.



Air palm has pretty much only been used on zetsu's or the bijuu clones (correct me if I'm wrong) and we all know those are basically equivalent to fodder ninja's. Also attacking with air palm =/= landing a hit. Sensors have been shown to be able to block Amaterasu (mind you I don't think Ino would be capable of such a feat but it shows the potential of the ability)



ueharakk said:


> Sure she has skill, but not enough to put her on the level of someone who has the byakugan and has the most dangerous taijutsu style in the leaf who also has at least similar physical stats to ino.



No she does not have the same taijutsu skill as Hinata however, her other strengths put her at an advantage especially if the fight is mid range  and being alright in taijutsu is just another something that helps Ino in battle


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## ueharakk (Oct 1, 2013)

Naiad said:


> Hinata cant even move a step forward to Ino,she has no speed to dodge it if she is rushing at her!


she wouldn't continue to rush at her if she saw ino preparing the chakra for it or showing the signs.



Naiad said:


> Airpalm is easily dodged by ino either,so hinata would HAVE to come close.


based on what reasoning?



Naiad said:


> Shintenshin covers hundred of metres in an Instant by feats. midrange is a rape.


yeah while shintenshin is being powered by the kyuubi cloak.  If you want to give hinata kyuubi cloaked feats, she turns ino into a bloody smear with the air palm that sent the juubi's tail across the battlefield.



Naiad said:


> are you argueing with feats or with hype? in case of Taijutsu ino has clearly the better feats compared to Hinata. Hinata was never seen fighting a Taijutsuexpert Jonin unlike Ino who had a conversation ongoing, meanwhile and thats what makes that feat even more impressive; she wasnt 100% focused and could still hold her self against Asuma.


When did she fight him in taijutsu? 



Naiad said:


> Even Later when she gained controll over the Zetsus she was able to force him on the defence. latest thing we saw of hinata was barely succeeding in a taijutsu that Neji as genin was easily able to perform. i dont want to compare genin Neji to Asuma as opponents


She used 2 zetsus in order to add pressure to shikamaru's shadow sewing attack in order to set up asuma for a chouji punch.  That's not being able to fight on par with asuma himself.

Doesn't matter if she just performed the 64 palms technique that neiji could back in part 1, she has things like twin lion fist and air palm that he couldn't perform, thus it doesn't have anything to do with how hinata stacks up to part 1 neiji.  

Hinata doesn't have much taijutsu feats, which is why we have to evaluate her taijutsu ability vs ino's by hype and by hype ino's who's not stated or implied to be anything special in taijutsu is not on the level of a byakuggan user who uses the most dangerous taijutsu style in the leaf


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## -JT- (Oct 1, 2013)

Ino wins.

A Shintenshin snipe can end it, especially if done at point-blank range, which is likely, seeing as Hinata pretty much has to get into CQC to start doing damage.
Air Palm can easily be avoided, thanks to Ino's good speed feats against Asuma, and if for whatever reason they do enter CQC, Ino can at least hold Hinata off for a while, again as shown by her fight with Asuma (however if they linger there too long, Hinata will be able to outdo her).


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 1, 2013)

Ino arguably has the speed to outright avoid Hinata's assault as she did react to Asuma in another body. However, Hinata got a recent speed boost when she blitzed a Juubi clone. 

Ino's mind capture has improved both in speed and accuracy and she has the option of spreading the capture two ways in close quarters, as she did against zetsu clones . 

I believe she takes this most of the time, but Hinata manages to avoid the capture 20% of the time either via wind palm or simple instinct.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 2, 2013)

Ino's shintenshin crosses 13049587340945 miles, and she took over Obito's mind before her body even slumped.  There's not really a lag time once it's shot, and she can curve it now. 

Hinata does have the upper hand in CQC, with her display of 64 palms, and in mid range with air palm, but Ino can fight with Asuma and deal with his dagger hands, so she's not going to go down easy.  Even still, I give the advantage there to the one with the superior style and more ranges, which is Hinata.


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## Naiad (Oct 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> she wouldn't continue to rush at her if she saw ino preparing the chakra for it or showing the signs.
> 
> 
> based on what reasoning? she has good speed,and dodging feats as an example ,the ash stream of asuma,the airpalm also isnt invisible
> ...



red marked


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## Lace (Oct 2, 2013)

I think it's safe to say Ino wins this battle  Ino's latest feats in the war put her at an advantage against Hinata for sure

Great counter Naiad!


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## kaminogan (Oct 2, 2013)

would the air palm counter the hypnosis wave?


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## Kellogem (Oct 2, 2013)

Hinata doesnt have to avoid shintenshit, throwing a kunais at Inos head is enough...she cant shintenshin, cause it would hit her, but cant do it while dodging either. Hinata can close the distance while keep throwing shit at her, and close range Hinata rapes Ino.

Inos shintenshit is not faster than Hinatas kunai / shuriken throw.


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## kaminogan (Oct 2, 2013)

^ ??

proof ?

for kunai throw speed?


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## Meibitch (Oct 2, 2013)

Ino is so Speed! ino wins simple



and done


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 2, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> would the air palm counter the hypnosis wave?



In theory, yes... 

but it wouldn't be very optimal or even practical.

Just dodge it or throw a kunai makes better sense & logic


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## Katou (Oct 2, 2013)

I'm pretty sure Byakugan can see her body swapping  . .Plus Hinata Speed Blitz Ino since Hinata has already been Considered Hypersonic+ because of keeping up with Neji 
Ino won't find any opening to body swap Hinata


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## kaminogan (Oct 2, 2013)

lol, yea,

but it would be MUCH more epic,


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## Kurama (Oct 2, 2013)

Yall are nuts. Ino could only land shintenshin from such a distance with Hinata's byakugan assisted aim, or Kurama's chakra, and we all know what Kurama's power does to Hinata's arsenal. Asuma is not this overwhelming power that automatically grants Ino a speed or taijutsu boost against Hinata just because she lasted two seconds. Ino is a magificent kunoichi, but Hinata is sufficiently equipped to defeat her. Hinata can see shintenshin, Ino is not seeing Hakke Kusho, which is invisible and faster and spammable.  Unless Shintenshin is Ino literally throwing her soul into another person and not a chalra comstruct like all other jutsu, its likely Hinata's air palm would disrupt the shintenshin itself and by the time Ino recovers Hinata's in range for 64 palms, then 64 lions if Ino's feeling particularly plucky.


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## ueharakk (Oct 2, 2013)

please multiquote, it makes it much easier for me to respond to your points.



Naiad said:


> she has good speed,and dodging feats as an example ,the ash stream of asuma,the airpalm also isnt invisible


when did she dodge the ash stream from asuma?  if airpalm isn't invisible, can you show a scan of it being visible?



Naiad said:


> No attack got improvement in case of speed,kagemane didnt, air palm didnt,and so didnt shintenshin! the only improvement was on based on the controlling strength! if you can prove that kagemane and also Airpalm got a speedimprovemend beside the strength improvement through the kyubi cloak, you might be right,but you wont find any


I don't have to prove that as you're pressupposing that kyuubi chakra cloak powers up all ninjutsu in the exact same way.  The kyuubi cloak made hinata's air palm and kakashi's kamui much larger than it normally is, yet it doesn't make shikamaru's shadow much larger.  

Ino has never shintened something that quickly and the technique was given speed hype right there and then by Naruto something that has never happened before.  



Naiad said:


> Through choujis body for example! she has shown great reflexes, and as i said, she wasnt 100% focused,with chatting with chouji meanwhile


tons of people chat while fighting, base naruto was chatting with ma and pa while he fought off deva path in taijutsu, that doesn't mean that his taijutsu ability was significantly affected.  But the chouji's body taijutsu fight is a good example.



Naiad said:


> .nope you can see he is on the defense in the same panel where ino clashes with the zetsus against asuma


for a moment, and again, zetsu bodies not inos.



Naiad said:


> twinlion fist has no real feat,its use was offpanel.


that's irrelevant to the point that she has jutsus and abilities that part 1 neiji doesn't have so she's not being portrayed as just surpassing part 1 neiji, especially when she brings out her twin lion fist after her 64 palms strike.  



Naiad said:


> you cant go with 'feats only' first,and then bring evaluation as arguement! Ino has shown that her reactions in taijutsu are able to keep up with a Taijutsu expert,if even not fully focused and even through a slower/heavier body!all Hinata can bring up with feats,is her failing at genin Neji


since when am i going with feats only?  And even if I did evaluate ino with feats and hinata with hype, that would be valid if ino has the means to be evaluated by feats (since she has feats) and hinata doesn't.  

If you want to evaluate ino's taijutsu via hype, then hinata murders her, and everyone knows that bringing up part 1 hinata's feats against neiji as some kind of argument to gauge current hinata's level is as fallacious as it gets.


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## Lace (Oct 2, 2013)

Kurama said:


> Yall are nuts. Ino could only land shintenshin from such a distance with Hinata's byakugan assisted aim, or Kurama's chakra, and we all know what Kurama's power does to Hinata's arsenal. Asuma is not this overwhelming power that automatically grants Ino a speed or taijutsu boost against Hinata just because she lasted two seconds. Ino is a magificent kunoichi, but Hinata is sufficiently equipped to defeat her. Hinata can see shintenshin, Ino is not seeing Hakke Kusho, which is invisible and faster and spammable.  Unless Shintenshin is Ino literally throwing her soul into another person and not a chalra comstruct like all other jutsu, its likely Hinata's air palm would disrupt the shintenshin itself and by the time Ino recovers Hinata's in range for 64 palms, then 64 lions if Ino's feeling particularly plucky.



It's not like Hinata is some Taijutsu master like some seem to be implying. Ino was able to shintenshin the jyuubi from a far distance.....are we really going to argue that Ino didn't cast that on her own? Please give me evidence that the the byakugan can do something to improve the nature Shintenshin other than telling her where to cast it. Also it'd be ridiculous to believe that the byakugan has no affect of the speed of her shintenshin which has been shown to be very fast now because she was able to revert the attack of the juubi in a second.

The databooks can be somewhat useless but Asuma's Taijutsu level is 4.5 which is very impressive. Hinata's is 3.5  If Ino can hold her own against Asuma she can certainly do the same with Hinata. There is no evidence that Hinata's air palm can disrupt a shintenshin, if I'm wrong please provide a source. Hinata is not proficient in 64 palms, she was barely able to accomplish it. I doubt this is something that she'd be able to do regularly in battle.


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## Naiad (Oct 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> please multiquote, it makes it much easier for me to respond to your points.



ok,i do that. =)




> when did she dodge the ash stream from asuma?  if airpalm isn't invisible, can you show a scan of it being visible?



when she pushed chouji out of the way, you could say that asuma told them to get away,but he had his seals formed already,and ino still managed to push choji out




> I don't have to prove that as you're pressupposing that kyuubi chakra cloak powers up all ninjutsu in the exact same way.  The kyuubi cloak made hinata's air palm and kakashi's kamui much larger than it normally is, yet it doesn't make shikamaru's shadow much larger.


of course you dont have to,because you cant, in this case. as i said, it made everyones attack larger/more powerful,but no attack got a speedboost,so you cant say shintenshin is that fast because of the boost because none of the others got faster. Ino was able to Shintenshin Obito several hundred metres away in an instant,while shikamarus shadow,which he used the same time as ino used shintenshin,only expanded a few metres (3-5) you can reread and analyze it, I dont lie to you!




> Ino has never shintened something that quickly and the technique was given speed hype right there and then by Naruto something that has never happened before.


she did. you remeber when she possessed chouji? Ino was able to mindtransfer chouji before Asuma could strike,and asuma strikes at a very high speed. she was able to realise that chouji isnt able to block it,transfered herself into him, and blocked his strike. all that in a short moment! she replicated that feat against obito too. she transfered into obito(covering several hundred metres in an instant),and saved choujin from the wood needles,before shikamaru expanded his shadow 3-5 metres,or BM Naruto got there.



> tons of people chat while fighting, base naruto was chatting with ma and pa while he fought off deva path in taijutsu, that doesn't mean that his taijutsu ability was significantly affected.  But the chouji's body taijutsu fight is a good example.



yeah but this is naruto,the main character! in all those years i didnt see a minor character replicating this. its easy to assume that many ppl are able to do it,but if there are no feats, they are probaply not able to. 




> for a moment, and again, zetsu bodies not inos.



i dont think it doesnt really matter if its her own or zetsus! she could handle asuma through choujis body,which is probaply a lot stronger than hers,but also a lot heavier=slower. 
plus she doesnt get better taijutsu entering a body,which may have good taijutsu skills. from the moment she possesses her target,she gains the fully controll over the targets body,which means she has to come up with her own taijutsu skills which are probaply influenced by the physical stats of the target itself, for example choujis strength and heaviness.




> that's irrelevant to the point that she has jutsus and abilities that part 1 neiji doesn't have so she's not being portrayed as just surpassing part 1 neiji, especially when she brings out her twin lion fist after her 64 palms strike.


well to me,she seems at best equally skilled as Neji those days in Part 1. if i need to compare Hinata or Asuma as an Enemy of Ino; Asuma >>>> Hinata comes to my mind




> since when am i going with feats only?  And even if I did evaluate ino with feats and hinata with hype, that would be valid if ino has the means to be evaluated by feats (since she has feats) and hinata doesn't.



you are asking for feats for my statements about Ino, and you say 'hinata has a byakugan and is able to perform juuken, so she has to be extremly superior in taijutsu' although her feats in Shippuuden arent that rich of being impressive. what i wanted to say in the post before; if you are asking for feats,then i would like to see some feats too. 



> If you want to evaluate ino's taijutsu via hype, then hinata murders her, and everyone knows that bringing up part 1 hinata's feats against neiji as some kind of argument to gauge current hinata's level is as fallacious as it gets.



i dont want to evaluate Inos taijutsu. i am using her feats,and what we could see in the chapter. evaluation doesnt take us further. and as i said, hinata seems to be about part 1 nejis level. and Asuma is defintly the harder opponent, in Ninjutsu,Taijutsu,Speed and everything.
i cant see her failing to someone so much weaker in general. 

the only chance for Hinata is a battle in closecombat,which she might be superior in,but ino isnt helpless,her feats against asuma put her at a very good level. 
but this is it. 
With Shintenshins speed,she gets immediatly blitzed


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## Nikushimi (Oct 2, 2013)

This match is like watching two Magikarps fighting each other to the death.

Hinata probably wins simply thanks to Jyuuken hax, but who really cares?


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 2, 2013)

Anlaced said:


> It's not like Hinata is some Taijutsu master like some seem to be implying.


 Well actually, hinata is... at least relative to Ino :S



> The databooks can be somewhat useless but Asuma's Taijutsu level is 4.5 which is very impressive. Hinata's is 3.5  If Ino can hold her own against Asuma


Ino has never done such a thing...



> she can certainly do the same with Hinata. There is no evidence that Hinata's air palm can disrupt a shintenshin, if I'm wrong please provide a source.


Well, Hinata doesn't actually need to intercept the jutsu anyway :S



> Hinata is not proficient in 64 palms, she was barely able to accomplish it I doubt this is something that she'd be able to do regularly in battle.


she isn't ''proficient'' there, but she is defo capable of ''regularly using *jyuken* in battle''...64 palms is just a layered & choreographed application of the same thing. 

if youre saying Ino has any chance in CQC vs Hinata, U need to 1st show Ino accomplishing anything in CQC..


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## kaminogan (Oct 2, 2013)

64 palms is simply a concentrated jyuuken fused with pressure point combat,


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## Lace (Oct 2, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> Ino has never done such a thing...



See battle with Asuma where Ino possessed white Zetsus, See battle with Asuma where Ino possessed Chouji and went head to head with Asuma 




diadora Lotto said:


> if youre saying Ino has any chance in CQC vs Hinata, U need to 1st show Ino accomplishing anything in CQC..



The initial battle is Mid-Range and we've provided evidence that Ino has a couple CC feats, please read all the posts.


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## kaminogan (Oct 2, 2013)

^ wouldnt that mean zetsu and choji fought asuma?


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 2, 2013)

Anlaced said:


> See battle with Asuma where Ino possessed white Zetsus,


 she doesn't have 2 spare zetsu bodies to puppet & pincer Hinata w/ ITT, 1 on 1... :S



> See battle with Asuma where Ino possessed Chouji and went head to head with Asuma


I only saw the battle where Ino-Shika-Cho went head-to-head w/ an emotionally concerned & tactically pressured Asuma.




> The initial battle is Mid-Range and we've provided evidence that Ino has a couple CC feats, please read all the posts.


I read them, but i'm still not convinced that those proposed ''feats'' are legitimately CQC in nature, at the very least where Inos own physicality is concerned.


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## Lace (Oct 2, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> ^ wouldnt that mean zetsu and choji fought asuma?



This point has already been covered please read all the posts! 



More on Shintenshin speed:


*Spoiler*: __ 



The Shintenshin Capture was almost instantaneous and was cast from a fairly far distance:






Seen in the panel above Ino was standing right next to Shikamaru when she cast Shintenshin, look at far away Shika is from the Jyuubi:





Shintenshin is not the slow technique it was in part I


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## kaminogan (Oct 2, 2013)

speed is distance/time do we have a time frame for that feat?


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## Lace (Oct 2, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> she doesn't have 2 spare zetsu bodies to puppet & pincer Hinata w/ ITT, 1 on 1... :S



Maybe not but it shows she HAS some taijutsu skill...and possessing animals is not out of the question though far fetched. 



diadora Lotto said:


> I only saw the battle where Ino-Shika-Cho went head-to-head w/ an emotionally concerned & tactically pressured Asuma.



Asuma was not in control of his own body due to re-animation jutsu, his emotional state has nothing to do with his abilities. He is also aware of Ino-Shika-Cho's skills....he was their sensei after all so any tactical advantage team 10 had is null due to Asuma's knowledge of their abilities.

And there are moments when Ino was basically fighting Asuma alone when she possessed Chouji 




kaminogan said:


> speed is distance/time do we have a time frame for that feat?



Time is impled by the panels being right next to each other. Time is also implied by the amount of panels showing Shikamaru's Kagemane which is siginificantly slower. Time is implied by Naruto's line "Wow! Faster than me? Nice Ino!"

all imply that the jutsu was indeed fast.


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## ueharakk (Oct 2, 2013)

Naiad said:


> when she pushed chouji out of the way, you could say that asuma told them to get away,but he had his seals formed already,and ino still managed to push choji out


okay, so how does that stack up to hinata's abilities?  Are you saying she couldn't get chouji out of the way in the same situation?  Or that any of the konoha 12 wouldn't be able to do it?

And you ignored my question: by what reasoning is air palm a visible attack?



Naiad said:


> of course you dont have to,because you cant, in this case. as i said, it made everyones attack larger/more powerful,but no attack got a speedboost,so you cant say shintenshin is that fast because of the boost because none of the others got faster. Ino was able to Shintenshin Obito several hundred metres away in an instant,while shikamarus shadow,which he used the same time as ino used shintenshin,only expanded a few metres (3-5) you can reread and analyze it, I dont lie to you!


I've already explained that I don't have to do that and it's not because I can't.  You failed to address shikamaru's shadow not getting bigger from the cloak which shows that the techniques get powered up differently some get faster some get more powerful ect.  Ino's mind transfer doesn't have any power so it's going to get 'powered up' via it's other stats like speed and length she can keep obito in the jutsu.  
Her jutsu also gets massive speed hype, something that no one's shintenshin has ever been given before and all of her previous shintenshins have required the opponent to be immobilized somehow or not know she's casting it on them, this feat is an extreme outlier and thus it would be attributed to her gaining the kyuubi chakra cloak until she actually does it without the cloak.

If you want to argue that the cloak had no effect on the speed of her jutsu, you have to show arguments for that.




Naiad said:


> she did. you remeber when she possessed chouji? Ino was able to mindtransfer chouji before Asuma could strike,and asuma strikes at a very high speed. she was able to realise that chouji isnt able to block it,transfered herself into him, and blocked his strike. all that in a short moment! she replicated that feat against obito too. she transfered into obito(covering several hundred metres in an instant),and saved choujin from the wood needles,before shikamaru expanded his shadow 3-5 metres,or BM Naruto got there.


Um that would be true only if you presuppose that she launched shinten as Asuma was about to strike chouji.

Chouji froze up in front of asuma, then a whole page of action passes then ino blocks the strike.  That was the second time chouji froze up in front of asuma, she probably launched it when she noticed he was once again frozen.




Naiad said:


> yeah but this is naruto,the main character! in all those years i didnt see a minor character replicating this. its easy to assume that many ppl are able to do it,but if there are no feats, they are probaply not able to.


How does naruto being the main character have any effect on his ability to hold a conversation while fighting an opponent?  




Naiad said:


> i dont think it doesnt really matter if its her own or zetsus! she could handle asuma through choujis body,which is probaply a lot stronger than hers,but also a lot heavier=slower.
> plus she doesnt get better taijutsu entering a body,which may have good taijutsu skills. from the moment she possesses her target,she gains the fully controll over the targets body,which means she has to come up with her own taijutsu skills which are probaply influenced by the physical stats of the target itself, for example choujis strength and heaviness.


yep taijutsu skills and reactions are her own, but not the physicality such as chouji and white zetsu's strength.  and since when is chouji slower than ino?




Naiad said:


> well to me,she seems at best equally skilled as Neji those days in Part 1. if i need to compare Hinata or Asuma as an Enemy of Ino; Asuma >>>> Hinata comes to my mind


What do you base any of those reasoning on? 





Naiad said:


> you are asking for feats for my statements about Ino, and you say 'hinata has a byakugan and is able to perform juuken, so she has to be extremly superior in taijutsu' although her feats in Shippuuden arent that rich of being impressive. what i wanted to say in the post before; if you are asking for feats,then i would like to see some feats too.


If your statements are based on feats, then you most definitely have a burden of proof to support those statements via feats.

It's not that hinata's feats in shippuden aren't rich or impressive, she simply has almost none regardless if they are impressive or not.  We've only seen her actually use jutsu on a target 2 times: once against deva and once against the juubi spawn.  Deva dodged her attacks because he's deva path, someone who beats kakashi in taijutsu.  The juubi spawn got owned.  By feats, we're not given much information about her abilities good or bad thus we have to use hype.  However, when you say ino can shinten hinata you are saying that ino can fire shintenshin at a speed fast enough that hinata can't dodge despite hinata's abilities that would allow her to see it coming beforehand.  Thus you do have a burden of proof by feats to show that she can do it.




Naiad said:


> i dont want to evaluate Inos taijutsu. i am using her feats,and what we could see in the chapter. evaluation doesnt take us further. and as i said, hinata seems to be about part 1 nejis level. and Asuma is defintly the harder opponent, in Ninjutsu,Taijutsu,Speed and everything.
> i cant see her failing to someone so much weaker in general.
> 
> the only chance for Hinata is a battle in closecombat,which she might be superior in,but ino isnt helpless,her feats against asuma put her at a very good level.
> ...


hold on, if hinata is seriously only part 1 neiji level, then ino just WTF blitzes her like asuma, kurenai, kakashi and even mr. cough cough hayate did to neiji.  And part 1 Asuma easily killed 9 shinobi who were stated to be "above chuunin level" and if ino was able to pressure him and hold him off in taijutsu, then she'd just massacre hinata in CQC.

But anyways considering ino wouldn't need the shika chou to pull of shintenshin against any opponent if her shintenshin speed is as fast as what she used with the kyuubi chakra cloak and the fact that aside from the one feat with the cloak, she's only hit stationary targets that are held down in some way and at a much closer range, she isn't going to blitz Hinata with that technique.  Hinata sees her make the handsign and build up the chakra for it, and dodges it, blasts her with an air palm, or throws kunai/shuriken at her.

Also, thank you for multiquoting


----------



## Meibitch (Oct 2, 2013)

Ino fans remenber, Ino show her speed with Kinkaku, she doesnt have chakra of Kyubi


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## -JT- (Oct 2, 2013)

Admittedly, Ino's 'Faster than KCM Naruto' Shintenshin was performed with the Kyubi Cloak. However, the speed of Shikamaru's jutsu did not improve, just the strength of it. Likewise, Ino's Kyubi Shintenshin enabled her to hold onto Obito without getting expelled.
This suggests that Ino's base Shintenshin may indeed by KCM speed, or not too much slower. But I guess it depends how you interpret it.


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## ueharakk (Oct 2, 2013)

-JT- said:


> Admittedly, Ino's 'Faster than KCM Naruto' Shintenshin was performed with the Kyubi Cloak. However, the speed of Shikamaru's jutsu did not improve, just the strength of it. Likewise, Ino's Kyubi Shintenshin enabled her to hold onto Obito without getting expelled.
> This suggests that Ino's base Shintenshin may indeed by KCM speed, or not too much slower. But I guess it depends how you interpret it.



if her base shintenshin is BM Naruto speed, which is much faster than V2 Ei who's stated that there's only 2 guys who could dodge his punch: Minato and Naruto, then there's no real reason for ino-shika-chou ino doesn't need shikamaru to hold down the target, she just oneshots since they aren't dodging her shintenshin unless they are faster than BM Naruto.


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 2, 2013)

Anlaced said:


> Maybe not but it shows she HAS some taijutsu skill...and possessing animals is not out of the question though far fetched.


 No, it shows that w/ tools she can create a numbers advantages.
 Ino wasn't shown in taijutsu precisely because it was more advantageous to puppet the bodies w/ yamanaka no jutsu ver.2

the only thing that implies taijutsu prowess is...taijutsu. Her ninjutsu doesn't do this, either from the authors intent nor by the actual ''mental taijutsu'' feats




> Asuma was not in control of his own body due to re-animation jutsu, his emotional state has nothing to do with his abilities.


well then the point in your supposed favor is completely negated - Kabuto left their emotions in tact, then controlled their actions. This is a subplot to specifically to effect their fighting as a trio. Now, even if _Ino herself_ actually overcame edo asuma _alone & purely in cqc_, the feat still would be subject to kabutos tactical whim & usage...while playing w/ house money!

But again, Ino never did this; she had help. And kabuto was multitasking & giving vague orders to the zombies - they weren't always fighting at full efficiency.




> He is also aware of Ino-Shika-Cho's skills....he was their sensei after all so any tactical advantage team 10 had is null due to Asuma's knowledge of their abilities.


 I thought Asuma wasn't in control? See?



> And there are moments when Ino was basically fighting Asuma alone when she possessed Chouji


 this is what is termed as an ''oxymoron''.
Ino was never alone, just as Asuma was never dealing his *entire* strategy to stop only one specific member of the trio, at any given point of the fight.
This implies the contrary to your ''basically fought asuma alone'' stuffs


----------



## Lace (Oct 2, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> No, it shows that w/ tools she can create a numbers advantages.



 Well then by that logic she'd certainly be able to do something similar with Hinata.




diadora Lotto said:


> well then the point in your supposed favor is completely negated - Kabuto left their emotions in tact, then controlled their actions. This is a subplot to specifically to effect their fighting as a trio. Now, even if _Ino herself_ actually overcame edo asuma _alone & purely in cqc_, the feat still would be subject to kabutos tactical whim & usage...while playing w/ house money!
> 
> But again, Ino never did this; she had help. And kabuto was multitasking & giving vague orders to the zombies - they weren't always fighting at full efficiency.



Kabuto was not directly controlling them. He used talismans to control the dead.  He did not need to focus on controlling any of them so their abilities were essentially on "auto-pilot".....meaning that their attacks would mostly likely be generic based on the situation. Kabuto gave orders but was not controlling their every move  essentially they were fighting Asuma. 





diadora Lotto said:


> I thought Asuma wasn't in control? See?



I was trying to humor you.  You seem to have failed to notice. I was trying to say that if Asuma was in control he would have knowledge about them and vice versa. So it's not like team 10 had a huge advantage over him like you were implying.




diadora Lotto said:


> Ino was never alone, just as Asuma was never dealing his *entire* strategy to stop only one specific member of the trio, at any given point of the fight.
> This implies the contrary to your ''basically fought asuma alone'' stuffs



I said at _moments_ keyword being moments. This was all and all a team effort as the chapter emphasizes but there was a short moment when Ino through Chouji's body........blah blabh blah don't take my words out of context

All you people have done is argue against the evidence provided. I'd like to hear some canon evidence about Hinata that supposedly shows that her abilities are on par with Ino's or that she'd be able to defeat her. I'd especially would like to see some evidence that shows Hinata's Air fist is "invisible" like people keep insisting. Lack of evidence does not prove a point. It's like saying unicorns exist because there's no evidence against it.

I'd also like to emphasize that the original discussion was based on a MID-RANGE battle so all this crap about Taijutsu and CC is arguing for the sake of arguing.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Oct 2, 2013)

Anlaced said:


> Well then by that logic she'd certainly be able to do something similar with Hinata.


 ???






> Kabuto was not directly controlling them. He used talismans to control the dead.  He did not need to focus on controlling any of them so their abilities were essentially on "auto-pilot".....meaning that their attacks would mostly likely be *generic based on the situation*. Kabuto gave orders but was not controlling their every move  essentially they were fighting Asuma.



this is what I was implying too, Kabutos interference clouds the performance of the alliance & the edos.

that's why U should take each battle for what it was shown as, instead of baking extrapolations out of thin-air, like ''Ino was matching asuma blah blah blah''




> I was trying to humor you.  You seem to have failed to notice. I was trying to say that if Asuma was in control he would have knowledge about them and vice versa.


of course...




> I said at _moments_ keyword being moments. This was all and all a team effort as the chapter emphasizes but there was a short moment when Ino through Chouji's body........blah blabh blah don't take my words out of context


no, at ALL moments asuma was fighting 3 shinobi in a game of cat & mouse where the roles repeatedly switched over.


> All you people have done is argue against the evidence provided. I'd like to hear some canon evidence about Hinata that supposedly shows that her abilities are on par with Ino's or that she'd be able to defeat her.


 ''on par'' is another oxymoron; shinobi combat is about match-ups & strength of jutsu

There is no evidence to suggest Ino can _even compete_ w/any named, direct combat specialist, let alone ''defeat'' one such.



> I'd especially would like to see some evidence that shows Hinata's Air fist is "invisible" like people keep insisting


. oh boy...



> Lack of evidence does not prove a point. It's like saying unicorns exist because there's no evidence against it.


 It defo proves a point in the context of a narrative, yes...this ''evidence'' or lack thereof...



> I'd also like to emphasize that the original discussion was based on a MID-RANGE battle so all this crap about Taijutsu and CC is arguing for the sake of arguing.



This is a ''battledome''. If Ino actually had the means to maintain a mid-ranged battle ITT, you wouldn't be having so much ''crap'' about other combat schemes in all this.


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## Lace (Oct 2, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> ???
> 
> This is a ''battledome''. If Ino actually had the means to maintain a mid-ranged battle ITT, you wouldn't be having so much ''crap'' about other combat schemes in all this.



This is really getting nowhere. I have been trying to provide examples to which you shoot down by plugging your ears and saying "lalala" if you would like to provide canon evidence towards Hinata's ability to defeat Ino in combat I would be glad to hear it but if not I'm done here.


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## -JT- (Oct 3, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> if her base shintenshin is BM Naruto speed, which is much faster than V2 Ei who's stated that there's only 2 guys who could dodge his punch: Minato and Naruto, then there's no real reason for ino-shika-chou ino doesn't need shikamaru to hold down the target, she just oneshots since they aren't dodging her shintenshin unless they are faster than BM Naruto.



Meh. Like I said, it's how you interpret it. At the very least, you can't deny that Ino's Kyubi Shintenshin is faster than KCM Naruto, as Naruto explicity says 'Faster than me, Ino!'


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 3, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> if her base shintenshin is BM Naruto speed, which is much faster than V2 Ei who's stated that there's only 2 guys who could dodge his punch: Minato and Naruto, then there's no real reason for ino-shika-chou ino doesn't need shikamaru to hold down the target, she just oneshots since they aren't dodging her shintenshin unless they are faster than BM Naruto.



Ino's jutsu crossed the same distance at the same speed using the, "Perfect Shintenshin" with Hinata without a cloak.

She leveled up since the Gin/Kin feat, by a lot, in all areas.  That much should have been made clear when she went from shintenshining into a bird in order to find the Immortals, to passively sensing a battlefield and connecting the entire alliance without the machine her father needed to be a radio man.  Her shintenshin probably increased in the same, "I don't care, I'll just going to do it!" way her telepathy did.  Or the same way Guy went from getting worn out by brief gate use to spamming them, or how Kakashi functions now.  Going to war is like the ultimate skill level grinding.

As far as Ino-Shika-Cho goes though, this was always coming.  It's a great way for weaker ninja to link up and beat stronger enemies, but once the shinobi reach a certain level, they become self-sufficient.  Their parents ran around the Konoha war zone killing off every enemy left right and center before the joined up to presumably wreak more havoc.


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## Naiad (Oct 3, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> okay, so how does that stack up to hinata's abilities?  Are you saying she couldn't get chouji out of the way in the same situation?  Or that any of the konoha 12 wouldn't be able to do it?


 as far she doesnt come up with a speedfeat like this i say she cant. just because ino could,it doesnt automatically mean hinata can do it too. 






> I've already explained that I don't have to do that and it's not because I can't.  You failed to address shikamaru's shadow not getting bigger from the cloak which shows that the techniques get powered up differently some get faster some get more powerful ect.  Ino's mind transfer doesn't have any power so it's going to get 'powered up' via it's other stats like speed and length she can keep obito in the jutsu.


all jutsus gained a powerup in their strength. Hinatas airpalm got strong enough to send juubis hand flying,shikamarus kagemane got strongh enough to hold the juubi for a short while on his own before getting assisted by other Naras, and so Inos got powered in its controlling strength. there were not really visible other powerups! also it wouldnt make sense if shintenshin would get a speed boost instead of a 'strength' boost. with the kyuubiboost she was able to hold Obito for a time,without get thrown out of his body unlike when she invaded him the first time,so that controlling strength does exist. And too add what Pirate said, she had a perfect timing with hinatas assitence to guide her shintenshin from a longer distance already. we can see in the chapter,where kyuubi ino invades Obito, that theres a distance of severeal hundred metres between her and obito. and she could blitz his mind from that distance in an instant.
Now that she made use of Hinatas Byakugan should mean that the distance between the shot has been even larger,and she still managed to invade obitos mind in time to redirect juubis blast.




> Her jutsu also gets massive speed hype, something that no one's shintenshin has ever been given before and all of her previous shintenshins have required the opponent to be immobilized somehow or not know she's casting it on them, this feat is an extreme outlier and thus it would be attributed to her gaining the kyuubi chakra cloak until she actually does it without the cloak.


when she mind transfered chouji,she had no assistence,like shikamaru binding asuma,to let her invade chouji in time. plus the point i made up above, are points that gives a good hint of how fast shintenshin has become.



> If you want to argue that the cloak had no effect on the speed of her jutsu, you have to show arguments for that.


 first answer to the first quote




> Um that would be true only if you presuppose that she launched shinten as Asuma was about to strike chouji.


Asuma was about to strike chouji,and during this ino realised that chouji wont be able to react,and mindswitched. it wouldnt make much sense to mindswitch just for the lulz, if she isnt sure that chouji could block it or not.






> How does naruto being the main character have any effect on his ability to hold a conversation while fighting an opponent?


how does it make you guessing that hinata could have a chat to convince someone in something and beeing good in taijutsu still? ino is probaply much more multitasking than hinata. she is able to coordinate 2 different bodies at once,and still able to fight skillfully through them. I cant believe Hinata can replicate this,if she simply has no feats that shows it,she is capable of doing the same. and as i said before; the fact that Ino is able to doesnt automatically mean hinata is too! it sounds a bit like ; if ino the weakest can do this and this, someone superior like hinata can probaply do this too. i think from what we saw in the manga now,easily shows that ino is overall better skilled than Hinata. Hinatas only advantage might be the Taijutsu area. 





> yep taijutsu skills and reactions are her own, but not the physicality such as chouji and white zetsu's strength.  and since when is chouji slower than ino?



for example when the battle switchted to InoShikaChou vs Asuma and they avoided the Explosion,Ino and Shika got out the Dust easily while chouji jumps out of it. Shikamaru himself stated that his movements are too slow. Also Choujis Taijutsu relies more on strength then on speed in hand to hand combat. 
i also think zetsus and Inos physically stats are pretty much the same. they are both not heavy,and they are both agile. 





> What do you base any of those reasoning on?



from what i read in the manga




> If your statements are based on feats, then you most definitely have a burden of proof to support those statements via feats.



i dont have a burden to proof my arguements with feats, but it would take time for me to look for, in what chapters they were in. ask for feats in your next quote, i'll try to search them then ! they were somewhere in the fivehundreds and sixhundreds



> It's not that hinata's feats in shippuden aren't rich or impressive, she simply has almost none regardless if they are impressive or not.  We've only seen her actually use jutsu on a target 2 times: once against deva and once against the juubi spawn.  Deva dodged her attacks because he's deva path, someone who beats kakashi in taijutsu.  The juubi spawn got owned.  By feats, we're not given much information about her abilities good or bad thus we have to use hype.  However, when you say ino can shinten hinata you are saying that ino can fire shintenshin at a speed fast enough that hinata can't dodge despite hinata's abilities that would allow her to see it coming beforehand.
> 
> 
> > if Hinata moves around she has chances to dodge it,but hinata has to come close do damage ino. And Inos Shintenshin is that fast,that the moment she is going to rush towards Ino ,she is greatly rushing into a pretty fast Shintenshin.
> ...


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## ueharakk (Oct 3, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Ino's jutsu crossed the same distance at the same speed using the, "Perfect Shintenshin" with Hinata without a cloak.


we weren't shown when she cast shintenshin so you can't make that claim.  You'd only know that she can cast shintenshin from a long distance, the length of time it takes to get to the target is something else.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> She leveled up since the Gin/Kin feat, by a lot, in all areas.  That much should have been made clear when she went from shintenshining into a bird in order to find the Immortals, to passively sensing a battlefield and connecting the entire alliance without the machine her father needed to be a radio man.  Her shintenshin probably increased in the same, "I don't care, I'll just going to do it!" way her telepathy did.  Or the same way Guy went from getting worn out by brief gate use to spamming them, or how Kakashi functions now.  Going to war is like the ultimate skill level grinding.


Gai's gate use didn't increase at all in the war.  Outside of the war he's never shown any kind of exhaustion after using the gates unless it was the 7th and in the war he's only used the sixth gate sparingly.

Ino not only had a significantly smaller amount of shinobi to broadcast her telepathy to, but she was on the same battlefield as all of them while her father had to spread his telepathy across the continent.  That's why he needed that machine to boost his abilities.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> As far as Ino-Shika-Cho goes though, this was always coming.  It's a great way for weaker ninja to link up and beat stronger enemies, but once the shinobi reach a certain level, they become self-sufficient.  Their parents ran around the Konoha war zone killing off every enemy left right and center before the joined up to presumably wreak more havoc.


Who were the ino shika chou defeating?  Fodders, sand fodders.  I've never argued that they couldn't beat shinobi on their own.  What you are suggesting is that ino can oneshot anyone who's not as fast as BM Naruto since her shintenshin is at least as fast as him.



Naiad said:


> as far she doesnt come up with a speedfeat like this i say she cant. just because ino could,it doesnt automatically mean hinata can do it too.


well by feats that would be true, but by feats the opposite would be true as well: that just because ino could do it doesn't automatically mean hinata can't do it.  Thus you'd have to use hype.






Naiad said:


> all jutsus gained a powerup in their strength. Hinatas airpalm got strong enough to send juubis hand flying,shikamarus kagemane got strongh enough to hold the juubi for a short while on his own before getting assisted by other Naras, and so Inos got powered in its controlling strength. there were not really visible other powerups! also it wouldnt make sense if shintenshin would get a speed boost instead of a 'strength' boost. with the kyuubiboost she was able to hold Obito for a time,without get thrown out of his body unlike when she invaded him the first time,so that controlling strength does exist. And too add what Pirate said, she had a perfect timing with hinatas assitence to guide her shintenshin from a longer distance already. we can see in the chapter,where kyuubi ino invades Obito, that theres a distance of severeal hundred metres between her and obito. and she could blitz his mind from that distance in an instant.
> Now that she made use of Hinatas Byakugan should mean that the distance between the shot has been even larger,and she still managed to invade obitos mind in time to redirect juubis blast.


But we know that it doesn't only boost the strength of the jutsu, it also boosts the size of some but not for others.  Not only that but half of shintenshin's mechanics is the jutsu's speed in other words the better ino becomes at shintenshin, the faster her jutsu becomes and the time in which she can hold targets becomes longer as well.  So that's exactly what the kyuubi cloak would power up: speed and strength of her jutsu.  Hinata's air palm's speed or shikamaru's shadow binding speed were never implied to become faster or slower depending on the ability of the user, air palm is straight up power and shadow binding is hold long you can hold a person or how freely you can manipulate the shadow.




Naiad said:


> when she mind transfered chouji,she had no assistence,like shikamaru binding asuma,to let her invade chouji in time. plus the point i made up above, are points that gives a good hint of how fast shintenshin has become.


she only got chouji because he was paralyzed with emotion which is why he stood in place while asuma yelled at him, deflected shikamaru's attack and was about to throat slash him...  




Naiad said:


> Asuma was about to strike chouji,and during this ino realised that chouji wont be able to react,and mindswitched. it wouldnt make much sense to mindswitch just for the lulz, if she isnt sure that chouji could block it or not.


er, if she sees her teamate paralyzed due to emotional turmoil despite edo asuma 1 meter away trying to kill them, that's more than enough reason to mind switch him.





Naiad said:


> how does it make you guessing that hinata could have a chat to convince someone in something and beeing good in taijutsu still? ino is probaply much more multitasking than hinata. she is able to coordinate 2 different bodies at once,and still able to fight skillfully through them. I cant believe Hinata can replicate this,if she simply has no feats that shows it,she is capable of doing the same. and as i said before; the fact that Ino is able to doesnt automatically mean hinata is too! it sounds a bit like ; if ino the weakest can do this and this, someone superior like hinata can probaply do this too. i think from what we saw in the manga now,easily shows that ino is overall better skilled than Hinata. Hinatas only advantage might be the Taijutsu area.


I'm not talking about hinata specifically, I'm talking about chatting while fighting in general.  If Naruto can do that while holding off someone who got the better of kakashi, then chatting while fighting doesn't say much about how your abilities stack up to your opponents.  So be it hinata, kisame, Konohomaru, whoever, talking while holding off someone in taijutsu doesn't put them at a significantly higher level than not talking while holding off the same person in taijutsu.




Naiad said:


> for example when the battle switchted to InoShikaChou vs Asuma and they avoided the Explosion,Ino and Shika got out the Dust easily while chouji jumps out of it. Shikamaru himself stated that his movements are too slow. Also Choujis Taijutsu relies more on strength then on speed in hand to hand combat.
> i also think zetsus and Inos physically stats are pretty much the same. they are both not heavy,and they are both agile.


- Shikamaru attributed chouji's slowness to his mindset not being right
- yep i agree chouji's taijutsu relies more on strength
- I think zetsus are significantly stronger and possibly faster than ino herself.  They are not only psuedo hashiramas, but they've also showed strength at least comparable if not greater than one of those big tsuchi ninjas who was protecting sakura.






Naiad said:


> from what i read in the manga


and specifically what in the manga are you referring to?  Unless you've covered it in our debate already.





Naiad said:


> i dont have a burden to proof my arguements with feats, but it would take time for me to look for, in what chapters they were in. ask for feats in your next quote, i'll try to search them then ! they were somewhere in the fivehundreds and sixhundreds


you do have a burden of proof to support your argument with feats if you are going to make an argument via feats.  



Naiad said:


> if Hinata moves around she has chances to dodge it,but hinata has to come close do damage ino. And Inos Shintenshin is that fast,that the moment she is going to rush towards Ino ,she is greatly rushing into a pretty fast Shintenshin.


but hinata has the byakugan which can see ino readying that jutsu barring the fact that ino has to raise her hands and aim it at hinata.  And then there's the fact that hinata doesn't have to go into cqc she can use air palm.





Naiad said:


> no thats not really what i wanted to say,you misunderstood me or i missexplained me.
> Ino was only able to pressure Asuma because she controlled 2 Zetsus to attack him. When she was in Choujis body alone, she was 'keeping up' with him,but not pressuring him.
> thats a difference to me.


sure but keeping up with a part 2 version of asuma, someone who would just outright blitz 'above chuunin' level shinobi and that same part 1 neiji would warrant that she would have the speed to outright blitz hinata.  Or it would warrant that chouji would outright blitz current hinata or that white zetsus would do that as well.




Naiad said:


> Yeah ino hit stationary targets only,but hold in mind that ino coveres several hundred metres in an INSTANT! In this battle they start at midrange which is about 10-15 metres. if ino is going for a shintenshin,she is godblitzing her at that close distance. and its not like Shintenshin would rely on several handsigns which would give hinata a hint that Ino is preparing a shintenshin, its only one handsign,thats needed.


but that jutsu was being powered by kyuubi chakra cloak.  If ino actually could do that in base, then she'd oneshot pretty much every character who is slower than BM Naruto and who isn't named Madara, Obito, and Hashirama.

That means even guys like sandaime raikage, itachi, sasuke, any of the five kage, and nagato, they all get oneshotted by ino.  I don't believe the author's intent is to have ino at that level, and thus I think we should require some compelling evidence to suggest that her base shintenshin is that fast (such as her doing it on panel in base).


----------



## Kurama (Oct 3, 2013)

First off, Asuma and Neji are two entirely different opponents.





Anlaced said:


> It's not like Hinata is some Taijutsu master like some seem to be implying.


But she's a specialist with the strongest style, which Ino is not.



> Ino was able to shintenshin the jyuubi from a far distance.....are we really going to argue that Ino didn't cast that on her own? Please give me evidence that the the byakugan can do something to improve the nature Shintenshin other than telling her where to cast it. Also it'd be ridiculous to believe that the byakugan has no affect of the speed of her shintenshin which has been shown to be very fast now because she was able to revert the attack of the juubi in a second.



We don't see when Ino casts the jutsu, its specifically stated to be assisted by Hinata's byakugan which has at the least a 10km range. Another extremely important factor is that from that distance, her target wasn't aware of the threat. In this battlefield, Ino isn't escaping Hinata's byakugan. Regardless of how fast her shintenshin can travel, Hinata can hit her with a Hakke Kusho before she can lift her hands for the seal.



> The databooks can be somewhat useless but Asuma's Taijutsu level is 4.5 which is very impressive. Hinata's is 3.5  If Ino can hold her own against Asuma she can certainly do the same with Hinata.



Databook stats aren't meant to be compared. Its meant to measure individual potential, and is ridiculously outdated as of the war anyway. Ino lasting a couple of seconds against Edo Asuma isn't equivalent to a CQC exchange with Hinata. Two entirely different fighting styles.



> There is no evidence that Hinata's air palm can disrupt a shintenshin, if I'm wrong please provide a source.



Air palm is a mid range jyuuken strike made of compressed air and chakra. Shintenshin is a jutsu, therefore a chakra construct. Byakugan can see chakra constructs. Jyuuken destroys chakra constructs. Its simple logic. Ino's jutsu will be disrupted and she'll be a sitting duck for a few seconds as she recovers, by which time Hinata would already be plugging her tenketsu or letting her lions feast.



> Hinata is not proficient in 64 palms, she was barely able to accomplish it. I doubt this is something that she'd be able to do regularly in battle.



That was her first time doing it in live combat. I guess you didn't realize but once she pushed forward and landed the 64 palms, she broke the barrier. Now she CAN do it at will, as she states she would _combined with her lions_.


----------



## Jagger (Oct 3, 2013)

Hinata trips and kills herself with her own attacks.


----------



## Lace (Oct 4, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Hinata trips and kills herself with her own attacks.





_nice one Hinata_


----------



## Naiad (Oct 4, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> we weren't shown when she cast shintenshin so you can't make that claim.  You'd only know that she can cast shintenshin from a long distance, the length of time it takes to get to the target is something else.
> 
> 
> Gai's gate use didn't increase at all in the war.  Outside of the war he's never shown any kind of exhaustion after using the gates unless it was the 7th and in the war he's only used the sixth gate sparingly.
> ...



Ill quote you on sunday i am not @home this weekend. Ill edit this post to quote then have a nice weekend


----------



## Van Konzen (Oct 4, 2013)

I just thought Ino is overrated nowadays..

their family technique is for support..
don't be deluded with her panel time recently..


Hinata dodges it, and juukenize Ino..

though I still prefer dating Ino any time any day than Hinata..


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Oct 4, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> I just thought Ino is overrated nowadays..
> 
> *their family technique is for support..*
> don't be deluded with her panel time recently..
> ...


----------



## Lace (Oct 4, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> I just thought Ino is overrated nowadays..
> 
> their family technique is for support..
> don't be deluded with her panel time recently..
> ...



Don't be deluded by Hinata's overhype. She's never been characterized as a strong shinobi, on the other hand Ino has.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Oct 4, 2013)

*Shino knows the narrative...*



Anlaced said:


> Don't be deluded by Hinata's overhype. She's never been characterized as a strong shinobi, on the other hand Ino has.



Indeed, *Ino-Shika-Chou* is prolly a low kage level _entity_ 

And with each iteration, like the current, the sum is substantially greater than the parts


----------



## Lace (Oct 4, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> Indeed, *Ino-Shika-Chou* is prolly a low kage level _entity_
> 
> And with each iteration, like the current, the sum is substantially greater than the parts



No one's denying that Ino-Shika-Chou is stronger as a unit than each individual. That's common sense. However Ino has been singled out as "exceptional among female ninja" Is the point I was making.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Oct 4, 2013)

Anlaced said:


> However Ino has been singled out as "exceptional among female ninja".


 She is indeed exceptional, shes a integral member of a legendary unit 

And that single distinction is born from her being a female. Previously the trio was all male 


She certainly isn't ''singled out'' for her merits of using mystic palm...


----------



## Lace (Oct 4, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> She is indeed exceptional, shes a integral member of a legendary unit
> 
> And that single distinction is born from her being a female. Previously the trio was all male
> 
> ...



No she hasn't....but it's not like it's her main technique or anything.


*Spoiler*: __ 















Ino exceptional.
Hinata not so much.

Mind you Hinata has shown significant growth but she's never been called anything close to exceptional.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Oct 4, 2013)

Anlaced said:


> Ino exceptional.
> Hinata not so much.
> 
> Mind you Hinata has shown significant growth but she's never been called anything close to exceptional.





Yes, ''exceptional'' is truly praise befitting of a kunoichi of Inos caliber 

In contrast, the lowly Hinata is reduced to merely relying on her now matured, remarkable gifts & her distinguished genetics; sucks to be her :S


----------



## Lace (Oct 4, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> Yes, ''exceptional'' is truly praise befitting of a kunoichi of Inos caliber
> 
> In contrast, the lowly Hinata is reduced to merely relying on her now matured, remarkable gifts & her distinguished genetics; sucks to be her :S



That is precisely what I'm saying. I'm glad we finally agree


----------



## Van Konzen (Oct 5, 2013)

Anlaced said:


> Don't be deluded by Hinata's overhype. She's never been characterized as a strong shinobi, on the other hand Ino has.



How in a hell Hinata was overhyped? 
we dont need such precise panel were anyone could
say "hinata is a genius or exceptional" for her to be characterized
as strong shinobi.. she showed us on being one vs Pein.

Ino could be one the best shinobi..... *for SUPPORT.*

but dont drag her name beating every other kunoichi
coz of such panel time she gained.. it was almost all
pointing to being her living up to her clan's ability..
and that is again, for team effort, not one on one battle.. 

Ino is on my bingo book as one of the hottest kunoichi in narutoverse
and its effin annoying for such pretty chick being disgraced
by fangirlism..


----------



## Lace (Oct 5, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> How in a hell Hinata was overhyped?




Hinata isn't overhyped by the fandom....really.....really. Ok. Sure.




redfang45 said:


> we dont need such precise panel were anyone could
> say "hinata is a genius or exceptional" for her to be characterized
> as strong shinobi..



This is based on Kishimoto's characterzation of Ino and Hinata. He has specifically called Ino strong and Hinata weak. Hinata has improved but so has Ino. Also last time I checked Neji was the genius of the Hyuuga clan not Hinata.




redfang45 said:


> Ino could be one the best shinobi..... *for SUPPORT.*



Ino's biggest strength is with InoShikaChou but it doesn't mean she's incapable of battling alone. She held her own against Sakura in the chunin exams without any support. She's versatile enough to handle a one on one battle. I've been an Ino fan since 2007 and I've always believed that she'd be able to take Hinata in battle. I'm not arguing this because of her latest feats in the manga. Also Shikamaru was able to take down Hidan despite being a "support" ninja like Ino, which shows that offensive abilities do not solely determine ability to win in battle, their resourcefulness has, and Ino is resourceful.



redfang45 said:


> She showed us on being one vs Pein.



Really because I seem to remember against Pein she was totaled with one attack.



redfang45 said:


> Ino is on my bingo book as one of the hottest kunoichi in narutoverse
> and its effin annoying for such pretty chick being disgraced
> by fangirlism..



Because Ino's only worth is her appearance.


----------



## Van Konzen (Oct 5, 2013)

Anlaced said:


> Hinata isn't overhyped by the fandom....really.....really. Ok. Sure.



Im not even a Hinata fan.. and disliked her most amongst the konoha 11..
that's a view out of the fandomism..



Anlaced said:


> This is based on Kishimoto's characterzation of Ino and Hinata. He has specifically called Ino strong and Hinata weak. Hinata has improved but so has Ino. Also last time I checked Neji was the genius of the Hyuuga clan not Hinata.



Hinata would really look weak almost always being compared with Neji.. 
and why brought up sticking it to my nose Neji is the genius thing
where I didnt even said Hinata is a genius.. 



Anlaced said:


> Ino's biggest strength is with InoShikaChou but it doesn't mean she's incapable of battling alone. She held her own against Sakura in the chunin exams without any support. She's versatile enough to handle a one on one battle. I've been an Ino fan since 2007 and I've always believed that she'd be able to take Hinata in battle. I'm not arguing this because of her latest feats in the manga. Also Shikamaru was able to take down Hidan despite being a "support" ninja like Ino, which shows that offensive abilities do not solely determine ability to win in battle, their resourcefulness has, and Ino is resourceful.



Shadow binding technique defers a lot from that of the Yamanakas..



Anlaced said:


> Really because I seem to remember against Pein she was totaled with one attack.



being stomped by deva path equals being weak?
yeah dat logic.. 



Anlaced said:


> Because Ino's only worth is her appearance.



so there's wrong now when we appreciate such work of art of Kishi.. 
and didnt I appreciate Ino for being one of the most
talented in terms of team effort and support?

Hinata > Ino in one on one battle

Ino > Hinata team battle (but still depends on who's who with it)

that would by my cents..
and I wouldnt do any further effort arguing with a fangirl/fanboy.


----------



## Lace (Oct 5, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> Im not even a Hinata fan.. and disliked her most amongst the konoha 11..
> that's a view out of the fandomism..



Your personal view is not the majority of the fandom





redfang45 said:


> Hinata would really look weak almost always being compared with Neji..
> and why brought up sticking it to my nose Neji is the genius thing
> where I didnt even said Hinata is a genius..



Is this even English? 



redfang45 said:


> "hinata is a genius or exceptional"







redfang45 said:


> Shadow binding technique defers a lot from that of the Yamanakas..



Yes indeed it does. Also further evidence was brought up with the Ino vs. Sakura example which shows that Ino is capable of using Shintenshin in a one on one battle.




redfang45 said:


> being stomped by deva path equals being weak?
> yeah dat logic..



What I was saying is that it does suffice as evidence for her strength. She didn't dodge it. She didn't block it. She was hit. If Moegi was hit by the attack it would have been the same outcome. Does that mean Moegi is strong? No.
So yeah..."dat logic" more applies to your reasoning.





redfang45 said:


> so there's wrong now when we appreciate such work of art of Kishi..
> and didnt I appreciate Ino for being one of the most
> talented in terms of team effort and support?
> 
> ...



Buh Bye


----------



## johnsuwey (Oct 5, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Depends on the distance. With Ino's increase speed with Shintenshin Hinata not likely gonna dodge it and Ino can finish off Hinata Fu style or something akin to that but if Hinata is able to get into CQC then I can see Hinata landing a deadly blow or two for the win.



Fights last several minutes, but the initial startup distance is the only factor in your calculation?

I swear, I will never understand how the people on this forum think.


----------



## Van Konzen (Oct 5, 2013)

Anlaced said:


> Is this even English?



just this.. 
my bad.. I still suck on english with years of learning it.. 
I would do better next time..

though I believe I am still better than Kishi on it..


----------



## Bonly (Oct 5, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> Fights last several minutes, but the initial startup distance is the only factor in your calculation?
> 
> I swear, I will never understand how the people on this forum think.



If you can read then you I'm sure you can answer the question.

Cool story.


----------



## Lace (Oct 5, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> just this..
> my bad.. I still suck on english with years of learning it..
> I would do better next time..
> 
> though I believe I am still better than Kishi on it..




Probably. 

And no worries : )


----------



## True Uchiha (Oct 5, 2013)

Ino solos low dif


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 6, 2013)

*@Urahararararek*

We have distance over time two ways. First because we know how long it takes for a body to slump after shintenshin use, (slumps a couple seconds after the spirit is fired, look at any use of of shintenshin) and from the time it took the spirit to return to her body after the jutsu is dispelled.  

Ino was still holding the hand seals when Obito broke the hold, and therefore hadn't slumped yet.  We know the distance it crossed was absurd, and we know it only held for two seconds.  

Secondly, the return trip.  Ino's jutsu was broken, and her spirit returned to her body while Hinata was descending from her jump.  We can see she wasn't very far from the ground, and were coming down at a fast pace.  But Ino is conscious an talking the moment they were landing.  In fact, we still see the whoosh marks from her descent.  Considering the distance her spirit had to travel, which I shouldn't have to and don't wanna point out to you, that's a world record for most improved shintenshin movement speed.

You could argue that she fired her shintenshin ages ago, and that's how it reached, but to do that you'd have to say this time her body stayed in seal form for much much longer for no good reason, and blame the second identical instance on the kyuubi cloak alone, and then you'd also have to assert that the return speed is magnitudes faster than the when it's shot, and yet receives no boost from the kyuubi cloak.

I on the other hand, will accept the Battledome's new blonde overlord, as well as the superiority of Consumme Punch.


----------



## Kurama (Oct 6, 2013)

In certain terms of Ino's hyped prowess in this thread, a good many are ignoring how pnj plays a heavy role in terms of the supposed great speed of her shintenshin as Pirate just stated [Kishi pretty much has her alert quicker to play Ms Exposition, on top of this her normally releasing the jutsu is much dofferent from recovering from a Hakke Kusho induced disruption as I stated in my above scenario] or her ability to stand more than two seconds against Asuma meaning she could suffiently contend against Hinata in CQC.

And this other guy using their academy/genin selves for comparison is laughable. Hinata is credited as strong by Naruto, and her father credits her now as strong enough to watch the back of her genius cousin. Both girls are simply living up to their great potential, going by levels is a waste of time because they are the same tier. There's that and simple breakdown of actual abilities and being properly equipped for one on one combat. In this fight, Hinata has all the advantage. She is properly equipped to negate Ino's jutsu and incapacitate her. Ino is not neutralizing Hinata's jutsu nor is she withstanding a jyuuken attack without eventually wearing down.


----------



## Naiad (Oct 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> well by feats that would be true, but by feats the opposite would be true as well: that just because ino could do it doesn't automatically mean hinata can't do it.  Thus you'd have to use hype.


where would those discussions end,if  we would say ; ''if character A showed that skill, Character B can probably do the same although never shown the same''
If Hinata would have a speed feat in her history of panel appearence that would suggest she is as fast as Ino in case of moving, i would agree, but she never did,so i disagree.







> But we know that it doesn't only boost the strength of the jutsu, it also boosts the size of some but not for others.  Not only that but half of shintenshin's mechanics is the jutsu's speed in other words the better ino becomes at shintenshin, the faster her jutsu becomes and the time in which she can hold targets becomes longer as well.  So that's exactly what the kyuubi cloak would power up: speed and strength of her jutsu.  Hinata's air palm's speed or shikamaru's shadow binding speed were never implied to become faster or slower depending on the ability of the user, air palm is straight up power and shadow binding is hold long you can hold a person or how freely you can manipulate the shadow.



Shikamarus Shadow and Hinatas Airpalm pretty much looked the same as always in case of their speed. we also have a clue about how fast shikamarus shadows are without the cloak,and if his shadow would have gotten a speed powerup, and is only able to expand few metres,while Ino covers several hundred metres with shintenshin,and is EVEN able to act through obito and protect chouji from the wood needles, Shikamarus Shadow in general would be pretty slow. and it Kagemane is no pretty slow nor a pretty fast, but more a fast than a slow
jutus.




> she only got chouji because he was paralyzed with emotion which is why he stood in place while asuma yelled at him, deflected shikamaru's attack and was about to throat slash him...


it was the opposite! shikamaru deflected asumas knife. which could have given chouji the opportunity to handle it. As i said Ino wouldnt use the jutsu just for fun in a situation like this,so she had to evaluate if chouji is able to block or not,and he wasnt,so she invaded his body. all this is happening in a pretty short moment. 





> er, if she sees her teamate paralyzed due to emotional turmoil despite edo asuma 1 meter away trying to kill them, that's more than enough reason to mind switch him.



what is 1 meter for someone like asuma? and still,ino has to do the handseal,to invade and to handle through choujis body! all that in the glimpse of a time that asuma needs to cover a distance of 1 metre.






> I'm not talking about hinata specifically, I'm talking about chatting while fighting in general.  If Naruto can do that while holding off someone who got the better of kakashi, then chatting while fighting doesn't say much about how your abilities stack up to your opponents.  So be it hinata, kisame, Konohomaru, whoever, talking while holding off someone in taijutsu doesn't put them at a significantly higher level than not talking while holding off the same person in taijutsu.


 i am not sure about which situation of naruto you are talking about to be honest. i also dont know if it is comparable if you shout out somehting from your own body or chat intensivly in 'mindbased dimension'. Ino pretty much hold a little speech in his mind, i dont know if naruto hold a speech during a closecombat battle. but even if he did,its hard to believe anyone could do that. and holding speeches while fighting is definitly a point that takes your focus from the actual battle.





> - Shikamaru attributed chouji's slowness to his mindset not being right
> - yep i agree chouji's taijutsu relies more on strength
> - I think zetsus are significantly stronger and possibly faster than ino herself.  They are not only psuedo hashiramas, but they've also showed strength at least comparable if not greater than one of those big tsuchi ninjas who was protecting sakura.



i cant remeber a zetsu being mentionally fast. they didnt have speedfeats either that were about the average fodder speed. in case of strength,i cant say anything. i dont know what zetsu feat you are refering to.
even if they might be stronger than ino,whats possible, ino doesnt really have a panel where she has shown any strength, she is fighting Hinata in his thread,which is physically about Inos level by feats. but neither Ino or Hinata need strength to take the other one down. Ino only needs to slice her neck,and hinata only needs to jyuuken inos chest.

Shikamarus yelling at Chouji ''get your head on straight'' sounds more like; get your ass up and move. also choujis real emotional struggle began a page later when he had to punch asuma.









> you do have a burden of proof to support your argument with feats if you are going to make an argument via feats.





			
				Naiad said:
			
		

> i dont have a burden to proof my arguements with feats, but it would take time for me to look for, in what chapters they were in. ask for feats in your next quote, i'll try to search them then ! they were somewhere in the fivehundreds and sixhundreds


+ i cant remember you using any feats either



> but hinata has the byakugan which can see ino readying that jutsu barring the fact that ino has to raise her hands and aim it at hinata.  And then there's the fact that hinata doesn't have to go into cqc she can use air palm.



did airpalm ever killed someone? i only remember it pushing back! Also Ino now has kinda knowledge on it. Her Father performed it in front of everyone in the alliance. also its kind of visible. it has those vacuum streams .. naaah i dont know how to describe the look. 
and at midrange distance it shouldnt be a problem  to dodge,if she dodged somethin about the same speed earlier in the manga at a closer range.






> sure but keeping up with a part 2 version of asuma, someone who would just outright blitz 'above chuunin' level shinob.



i am not saying that ino is able to dominate Hinata or Neji in Taijutsu. what i'm saying is that she doesnt get blitzed and stomped, and can give Hinata a fight there (which i would say,Hinata may dominate in the end) but i also dont believe Ino would stay in the C&C. she knows hyuugas are taijutsu specialsts. So she would go into the distance again.





> but that jutsu was being powered by kyuubi chakra cloak.  If ino actually could do that in base, then she'd oneshot pretty much every character who is slower than BM Naruto and who isn't named Madara, Obito, and Hashirama.



yes in case of strength. and yes/no it depends. for example if Ino would be settled against the raikage at midrange distance,she wouldnt even get the seals made, before losing her head. 

but in Hinatas case Ino can do her Handseal in time. And once her handseals are made its impossible for her to reach ino in CC one try to rush forward is a 100% chance for Ino to success. Hinatas only chance is the airpalm,which ino has knowledge about and is able to dodge it. therefore it doesnt really kill anyone after hitting. If Hinata somehow  manages to get close,which she mostly wont,she doesnt have a sure success either,because Ino is skilled at taijutsu too.



			
				Kurama said:
			
		

> And this other guy using their academy/genin selves for comparison is laughable



In the end i was comparing current Hinata to Asuma to make clear that Ino is able to hold her own on someone who is above Hinata in any case of skill! it was not laughable but it was pretty easy to get,if you read clear


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 6, 2013)

Naiad said:


> where would those discussions end,if  we would say ; *''if character A showed that skill, Character B can probably do the same although never shown the same''*
> If Hinata would have a speed feat in her history of panel appearence that would suggest she is as fast as Ino in case of moving, i would agree, but she never did,so i disagree.


Again, that's simply you saying absence of evidence is evidence of absence.  If Hinata has NO speed feats, then we don't know how she is compared to someone like ino.  And the bolded is in no way what I'm trying to do because the bolded is asserting that I'm not giving ANY reasoning for why character B can probably do the same thing.  I have given my reasoning for why character B can do the same thing and it's by hype, not feats since there's no evidence for or against character B's speed being on the same level, for all we know Hinata could be considerably faster than ino.







Naiad said:


> Shikamarus Shadow and Hinatas Airpalm pretty much looked the same as always in case of their speed. we also have a clue about how fast shikamarus shadows are without the cloak,and if his shadow would have gotten a speed powerup, and is only able to expand few metres,while Ino covers several hundred metres with shintenshin,and is EVEN able to act through obito and protect chouji from the wood needles, Shikamarus Shadow in general would be pretty slow. and it Kagemane is no pretty slow nor a pretty fast, but more a fast than a slow
> jutus.


The post you've quoted covers this point, it isn't trying to say that shika's shadow or hinata's airpalm got faster, but its showing that despite it not getting faster it didn't just get "more powerful" one got bigger while the other didn't which means it affects different attacks differently and since ino's mind transfer's power is half based on its speed and half based on her ability to hold her opponent, then that's why we'd see it get powered up in that way.




Naiad said:


> it was the opposite! shikamaru deflected asumas knife. which could have given chouji the opportunity to handle it. As i said Ino wouldnt use the jutsu just for fun in a situation like this,so she had to evaluate if chouji is able to block or not,and he wasnt,so she invaded his body. all this is happening in a pretty short moment.


Did shikamaru deflect asuma's knife?  I think it was the other way around, that shikamaru threw kunai and asuma deflected it, yet despite that chouji just stood there.    Anyways, the fact is that ino saw chouji froze up and could have started her shintenshin the moment he did so.






Naiad said:


> what is 1 meter for someone like asuma? and still,ino has to do the handseal,to invade and to handle through choujis body! all that in the glimpse of a time that asuma needs to cover a distance of 1 metre.


1 meter is nothing for someone like asuma, thus since ino knows chouji is frozen in place in killing distance from asuma,  I don't see why she wouldn't immediately try to shinten him.  And imagine if chouji dodged and she missed him, guess who she'd end up hitting?  Asuma! which would be even better.





Naiad said:


> i am not sure about which situation of naruto you are talking about to be honest. i also dont know if it is comparable if you shout out somehting from your own body or chat intensivly in 'mindbased dimension'. Ino pretty much hold a little speech in his mind, i dont know if naruto hold a speech during a closecombat battle. but even if he did,its hard to believe anyone could do that. and holding speeches while fighting is definitly a point that takes your focus from the actual battle.


when *he fought against deva path* when *he fought against edo itachi* neither situation implied him talking somehow made it harder for him to fight.
And it's much easier to have conversations in your mind while in a battlefield than to talk, conversations in the mind don't require you to physically talk so you can focus on your breathing instead and time in the mind goes by much slower than time in the real world.






Naiad said:


> i cant remeber a zetsu being mentionally fast. they didnt have speedfeats either that were about the average fodder speed. in case of strength,i cant say anything. i dont know what zetsu feat you are refering to.
> even if they might be stronger than ino,whats possible, ino doesnt really have a panel where she has shown any strength, she is fighting Hinata in his thread,which is physically about Inos level by feats. but neither Ino or Hinata need strength to take the other one down. Ino only needs to slice her neck,and hinata only needs to jyuuken inos chest.


okay, but that does take away from the white zetus's ability to push asuma back versus ino's ability to do so herself.



Naiad said:


> Shikamarus yelling at Chouji ''get your head on straight'' sounds more like; get your ass up and move. also choujis real emotional struggle began a page later when he had to punch asuma.


Er no, getting your head on straight is talking specifically about being mentally focused about the game or what's happening.  Getting your head on straight may result in chouji moving faster or reacting faster to attacks, but that doesn't mean that one statement = the other.









Naiad said:


> + i cant remember you using any feats either


Again, i'm not the one trying to assert an argument based on feats, so I don't have a burden of proof to do so.   My argument is about hype since hinata doesn't have much feats and thus evaluating her in that way would be as disingenuous as evaluating Hashirama to SM Naruto before Hashirama got his proper feats.

I don't see how you wouldn't have a burden of proof to support your argument with feats if what you are asserting is a feat-based argument.  




Naiad said:


> did airpalm ever killed someone? i only remember it pushing back! Also Ino now has kinda knowledge on it. Her Father performed it in front of everyone in the alliance. also its kind of visible. it has those vacuum streams .. naaah i dont know how to describe the look.
> and at midrange distance it shouldnt be a problem  to dodge,if she dodged somethin about the same speed earlier in the manga at a closer range.


I'm not saying that it kills ino, but it will hurt her, the databook describes it as attacking the vitals of the opponent and it was used as an offensive technique against white zetsus.

It's much easier to dodge attacks that aren't directed at you and you'd have to show that air palm is just as fast as asuma's fuuton.







Naiad said:


> i am not saying that ino is able to dominate Hinata or Neji in Taijutsu. what i'm saying is that she doesnt get blitzed and stomped, and can give Hinata a fight there (which i would say,Hinata may dominate in the end) but i also dont believe Ino would stay in the C&C. she knows hyuugas are taijutsu specialsts. So she would go into the distance again.


I'm not saying that you believe she'd dominate them, however what I am saying is that putting Hinata on part 1 neiji's level would mean you'd logically have to reach the conclusion that ino would blitz and dominate them if she can keep up with someone like asuma in CQC since asuma and even kurenai can WTF blitz neiji and fodderize 'above chuunin' opponents with just shuriken taijutsu by the dozen.

Thus i'm trying to show you that hinata can't be on the same level as part 1 neiji since that's the conclusion you'd reach.







Naiad said:


> yes in case of strength. and yes/no it depends. for example if Ino would be settled against the raikage at midrange distance,she wouldnt even get the seals made, before losing her head.
> 
> but in Hinatas case Ino can do her Handseal in time. And once her handseals are made its impossible for her to reach ino in CC one try to rush forward is a 100% chance for Ino to success. Hinatas only chance is the airpalm,which ino has knowledge about and is able to dodge it. therefore it doesnt really kill anyone after hitting. If Hinata somehow  manages to get close,which she mostly wont,she doesnt have a sure success either,because Ino is skilled at taijutsu too.


who's the strongest person you believe ino can beat?

Because I sure don't even think she's portrayed to be at the kage level, and when you are arguing someone not even at the kage level beats people 3-4 tiers above them, you'd have to have a very compelling argument for how they'd be able to do so.


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## Naiad (Oct 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Again, that's simply you saying absence of evidence is evidence of absence.  If Hinata has NO speed feats, then we don't know how she is compared to someone like ino.  And the bolded is in no way what I'm trying to do because the bolded is asserting that I'm not giving ANY reasoning for why character B can probably do the same thing.  I have given my reasoning for why character B can do the same thing and it's by hype, not feats since there's no evidence for or against character B's speed being on the same level, for all we know Hinata could be considerably faster than ino.



and where exactly does she get the hype that lets you assume she could be as fast or faster than Ino? i cant remember Hinata being much hyped. its more the opposite. I can remember Naruto saying; you improved/are strong<- which was clearly to encourage her. 
Her Clan was hyped yes. but within the clan she was present to be a failure who is worse than the 5 year old sister. 

i cant find much more hype potential for Hinata. Neither Ino or Hinata have much hype around them in Shippuuden!
in Part 1 Hinatas 'hype' was to be the clans failure and Inos was to be an exceptionial Kunoichi noted by Asuma and indirectly Sakura in younger days







> since ino's mind transfer's power is half based on its speed and half based on her ability to hold her opponent, then that's why we'd see it get powered up in that way.



Shintenshins' Power isnt half based on its speed. Its Power is based on Mindstrength.
In the CE Sakura noted its a very powerful jutsu because of its ability to gain the controll another person. while saying this, Sakura wasnt refering to its speed at all, but she said exactly the opposite,that the slowness is a great weakness of the jutsu.
*how Obito heals,*

today, Shintenshin is still strong/even stronger but Ino overcame the weakness of the Jutsu, being damn slow, and developed it to a very fast jutsu. but that doesnt influence Shintenshins power! it just makes Shintenshin way more dangerous now yes,maybe thats what you kinda meant.





> Did shikamaru deflect asuma's knife?  I think it was the other way around, that shikamaru threw kunai and asuma deflected it, yet despite that chouji just stood there.    Anyways, the fact is that ino saw chouji froze up and could have started her shintenshin the moment he did so.


*how Obito heals,* ah yeah, i got confused by their use of weapons.

but immediatly after Asuma Deflected it, Shikamaru warned chouji,together with Asuma,and then Ino uses her Jutsu to invade Chouji.Ino is even still standing and has her eyes opened,although she is already blocking asuma in the panel before.  this happens all in a glimpse of a moment. even before the Knife and the Kunai reach the ground.

See here;
*how Obito heals,*







> 1 meter is nothing for someone like asuma, thus since ino knows chouji is frozen in place in killing distance from asuma,  I don't see why she wouldn't immediately try to shinten him.  And imagine if chouji dodged and she missed him, guess who she'd end up hitting?  Asuma! which would be even better.


i think i answered the point above. and No ;
*how Obito heals,*
third Panel, you can see that if Asuma would be 1 metre infront of Chouji, he wouldnt be in Shintenshins line in Case Chouji would dodge. Ino is standing too far on the right side from their point of view. so her Shintenshin wouldnt hit anyone.







> when *he fought against deva path* when *he fought against edo itachi* neither situation implied him talking somehow made it harder for him to fight.
> And it's much easier to have conversations in your mind while in a battlefield than to talk, conversations in the mind don't require you to physically talk so you can focus on your breathing instead and time in the mind goes by much slower than time in the real world.



here you go;
*how Obito heals,* You can see in the last panel on the right that Ino is focusing Chouji during her clash with Asuma. It doesnt seem pretty focused to the actual clash with Asuma, to me. 









> Er no, getting your head on straight is talking specifically about being mentally focused about the game or what's happening.  Getting your head on straight may result in chouji moving faster or reacting faster to attacks, but that doesn't mean that one statement = the other.



in german translations it seemed to be referred to his speed not his mental state, and thats how i got it also in the english translation.











> Again, i'm not the one trying to assert an argument based on feats, so I don't have a burden of proof to do so.   My argument is about hype since hinata doesn't have much feats and thus evaluating her in that way would be as disingenuous as evaluating Hashirama to SM Naruto before Hashirama got his proper feats.
> 
> I don't see how you wouldn't have a burden of proof to support your argument with feats if what you are asserting is a feat-based argument.



i'll give you feats from now on. And about the hype,i wrote about it above! there isnt much about to hype hinata. maybe i should start with using hype too? but this would getting into nowhere! i prefer to stay by what we can see in the feats.





> I'm not saying that it kills ino, but it will hurt her, the databook describes it as attacking the vitals of the opponent and it was used as an offensive technique against white zetsus.


yeah ok, but how much would it hurt her? but the main question is if she can even land a hit!



> It's much easier to dodge attacks that aren't directed at you and you'd have to show that air palm is just as fast as asuma's fuuton.


In Inos case of dodging Asumas Fuuton its even harder to get out of it,than if it was directed to her, because she hat do jump into the directionline, grab the good weighted chouji and put his massive body out of the directionline. 
*he fought against edo itachi
*
she would have had it even easier if it would have been directed at her! because she wouldnt have to need to jump into the directionline first,grab someoneheavy and manage to pull that weight out of it. she could have just jumped from the directionline,out of.






> I'm not saying that you believe she'd dominate them, however what I am saying is that putting Hinata on part 1 neiji's level would mean you'd logically have to reach the conclusion that ino would blitz and dominate them if she can keep up with someone like asuma in CQC since asuma and even kurenai can WTF blitz neiji and fodderize 'above chuunin' opponents with just shuriken taijutsu by the dozen.



well i agree that the comparison between pt.1 Neji and current hinata may be unfitting,but as i already said; in the end i wanted compare her to Asuma as an Opponent for Ino to make the difference more clear. Asuma is in every single category better skilled than both, Ino and Hinata. So if Ino is able to hold herself against Asuma ,its kinda obvisous that she can do the same against Hinata with less efforts than against Asuma, without that i want to say Ino >>>> Hinata in Taijutsu .








> who's the strongest person you believe ino can beat?



i cant tell you that! to give you a concret answer depends on the location,the knowledge, if they are out of sight, and so on. you should know that




> Because I sure don't even think she's portrayed to be at the kage level,* and when you are arguing someone not even at the kage level beats people 3-4 tiers above them, you'd have to have a very compelling argument for how they'd be able to do so.*



ehm..its Ino vs Hinata.. not Ino vs '3-4 Tiers above-Kage'

 you may refer to the fact she could blitz Obito? Yes but hold in Mind that Ino wasnt his only opponent. he was enough distracted to give ino a 100%chance-of-succeeding-shot!


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## Synn (Oct 7, 2013)

*Ino takes this with mid-difficulty.*

While Hinata is significantly stronger in taijutsu, Ino wouldn't allow this to end in CQC. She would most likely keep Hinata at bay and invade her mind as soon as possible.

Truth be told, it's hard to picture Ino losing here. Hinata is undoubtedly a great shinobi, but Ino is just better overall. I don't think the Hyuuga girl stands a chance at all, to be completely honest.


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## Kurama (Oct 7, 2013)

Keep Hinata at bay HOW? She's gonna repeatedly dodge instant invisible air pressure? You wanna see a scenario of Ino losing, look at my previous posts. Yall arguments are ridiculously faulty. The Asuma fight can't really be used to gauge Ino's ability the way yall are trying to do because there's too much PnJ involved, and his techniques don't work the same as Hinata's at all. As I seem to have to constantly repeat, Ino lasting two seconds in a clash against her teacher does not magically place her tiers above Hinata where its somehow an instant stomp. Hinata can see her shintenshin coming a mile away, Ino is not seeing Hakke Kusho coming. Hinata only needs to disorient Ino for a moment and its over with 64 palms.


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## -JT- (Oct 7, 2013)

Kurama said:


> The Asuma fight can't really be used to gauge Ino's ability the way yall are trying to do because there's too much PnJ involved


How so? PnJ is an extremely subjective term.



> As I seem to have to constantly repeat, Ino lasting two seconds in a clash against her teacher does not magically place her tiers above Hinata where its somehow an instant stomp.


It's not that Ino is better in CQC than Hinata, because she blatantly isn't. It's that all of the Shintenshin's weak points (minus the body vulnerability and damage return) have been overcome, so there's a very high chance Ino can hit an opponent now.



> Hinata can see her shintenshin coming a mile away, Ino is not seeing Hakke Kusho coming.


Ino can sense chakra. Whether or not she can sense the actual build up in Hinata's body, she'll definitely sense it coming at her, even if she can't see it as you are claiming.


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## Kurama (Oct 7, 2013)

-JT- said:


> How so? PnJ is an extremely subjective term.


 Ino stans in this thread are constantly using her "feats" in their fight against Asuma to claim she'd take Hinata with ease using Asuma to overhype Ino's ability. Of course she's going to be able to block a couple of attacks from Asuma and knock Chouji out of the way of another. They'd be dead otherwise. How this then equates to her holding her own in an extensive taijutsu exchange against a now much more competent and self confident Hinata who can see tenketsu [eliminating her once weakness] I just don't understand. Or this idea that she can speedblitz Hinata with Shintenshin because she used it against Obito WHILE HE'S DISTRACTED BY THE ENTIRE ALLIANCE, when in this instance Hinata is solely focused on her the entire time.




> It's not that Ino is better in CQC than Hinata, because she blatantly isn't. It's that all of the Shintenshin's weak points (minus the body vulnerability and damage return) have been overcome, so there's a very high chance Ino can hit an opponent now.



That's only worth anything against an opponent who isn't equipped with the tools and ability to see it coming and negate it directly, which in turn exposes the weaknesses that cannot be overcome and using them to her advantage.




> Ino can sense chakra. Whether or not she can sense the actual build up in Hinata's body, she'll definitely sense it coming at her, even if she can't see it as you are claiming.



She might be able to sense it [I doubt that honestly] but dodging instant spammable invisible force isn't gonna be easy. Hinata only needs an instance of Ino getting disoriented to land 64 palms. Ino isn't exactly praised for her evasive skill.


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## Rasengan with gatorade (Oct 7, 2013)

The Golden Byakugan will be awakened and Ino will lose.


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 7, 2013)

Hinata cannot lose here unless kishimoto is writing the fight.

Ino cant magically overcome her inability to fight directly or the ''weakness'' of Shitenshin just because biased opine-rs keep repeating the contrary; it wont cease being nonsense...theres a fan-fiction party up in here, smh.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 7, 2013)

Even if you ignore Ino's Shiranshin feat against Obito, she could still enter Asuma's mind before he landed a blow on Chouji. Furthermore she could possess 6 tailed Kinkaku with a very brief distraction, and Inoichi even noted how much her speed with the technique had improved. Ino taking control of Hinata is not out of the question, especially considering Hinata's lack of great evasion feats. I can't imagine dodging a fast moving soul is easy, even for a skilled taijutsu user.​


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## Naiad (Oct 7, 2013)

Kurama said:


> Ino stans in this thread are constantly using her "feats" in their fight against Asuma to claim she'd take Hinata with ease using Asuma to overhype Ino's ability. Of course she's going to be able to block a couple of attacks from Asuma and knock Chouji out of the way of another. They'd be dead otherwise. How this then equates to her holding her own in an extensive taijutsu exchange against a now much more competent and self confident Hinata who can see tenketsu [eliminating her once weakness] I just don't understand. Or this idea that she can speedblitz Hinata with Shintenshin because she used it against Obito WHILE HE'S DISTRACTED BY THE ENTIRE ALLIANCE, when in this instance Hinata is solely focused on her the entire time.



We said that If Ino can holdherself against Asuma,that she can holdherself against Hinata too,not that she beats Hinata in Taijutsu with ease. Ino knows about her,and she wont  fight this fight in a close combat fight anyway! if hinata will ever be able to reach her, Ino will be able  block her attacks for a while and goes into distance again. overall Hinata would probaly beat her. although Taijutsu is what Hinata is specialized in, it doesnt make her superior to Asumas Taijutsu,he is also way faster, and better skilled overall. 
Also you ignore a major point in case of Shintenshin,Obito and Hinata. Of course Obito was greatly distracted,but Ino managed to invade him from a MUCH greater distance. This (Ino vs Hinata) battle is starting at midrange! so the question; if Ino instantly covers several hundred metres, how many time will she need to cover the midrange distance?









> She might be able to sense it [I doubt that honestly] but dodging instant spammable invisible force isn't gonna be easy. Hinata only needs an instance of Ino getting disoriented to land 64 palms. Ino isn't exactly praised for her evasive skill.



why shouldnt she be able to sense it? other questions what makes you believe that Hinata can see a shintenshin, although its known that shintenshin uses spiritual/mental energy
which isnt chakra but only a part of what chakra is made of. as far as i remember Byakugan can see chakra, and not the those parts what its made of! correct me if i am wrong


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 9, 2013)

90% of the Ino supporters aren't questioning Hinata's ability to defeat Ino taijutsu.  At most they say she'll do okay for a bit, because she held her own against Asuma, and Hinata definitely isn't tiers above Asuma in taijutsu.

What they are doubting, is Hinata's ability to dodge what has been stated and show to be a very fast mental projection, one that by statements and feats can contend with the premier speedsters in the universe, without any feats from Hinata to show she has anything above average chunin speed.  

Go ahead and scale Hinata up to give her average Jonin speed, as is charitable in the absence of feats, and scale down the shintenshin bullet from Minato/KCM Naruto Ei tier hitting speeds, to something that would just give Summit Taka difficulty, and ask yourself if you see her avoiding it at all, or more times out of ten, without even factoring in Ino's ability to split and curve her shintenshin.  

Anymore charity than that, by hype, portrayal, or otherwise, seems unwarranted.  Hinata has _never_ been hyped or portrayed at any point in the manga as a speedster.  Kiba was always the fast one on her team, and he wasn't even that fast compared to Haku, Lee, Chunin Exam Sasuke, or anyone else in his generation that could be considered within his peer group.  Conversely, the databook has consistently held Ino as faster than Hinata until the third databook, where they became equal.

This doesn't bother me, even as someone who likes Hinata, because her abilities clearly lie within her technique and style, and close combat prowess.  She can perform 64 palms, and air palm, lion fists, and has some of the best feats with her byakugan in her clan.  She's strong enough to defeat many of her peers, most certainly Ino, if the battle falls into the scope of her strengths.  But like Synn said, Ino is not going to get blitzed, and she has a jutsu that doesn't allow Hinata to jump in and play death tag on Ino's organs if it hits, and it almost certainly hits.


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