# Kylo Ren (TFA) vs Luke Skywalker (ESB)



## Rivers (Dec 16, 2015)

​
*Location:* Snowy Forests of the Starkiller Base
*SOM:* In Character, but with intent to kill
*Equipment:* Standard
*Notes:* Kylo Ren is not previously injured 
- Luke as he was just before fighting Darth Vader in Cloud City.


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## Adamant soul (Dec 16, 2015)

Luke destroys him easily. He was praised by Vader and trained (however briefly) by two Jedi Masters including Yoda himself. Kylo on the other hand.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Even Finn, a stormtrooper with a lightsaber managed to land a hit on Kylo before being put down. Rey defeated Kylo after only tapping into the force for the first time that day. Wait 'til Ep 8 or 9 when Kylo's training is complete before putting him against anybody of note.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Dec 16, 2015)

Were the spoilers about Ren being some watered down Caedus true?

That's all I'm really curious about tbh


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## Revan Reborn (Dec 16, 2015)

Any decent jedi master would destroy him.


*Spoiler*: __ 



damn thats bs that the first time she picked up a light saber, all she needed was a little  force power to beat him in lS combat in which he should be trained in one or two of the 7 forms of lS combat. tho he was critically injured. And if she surpasses luke all hell will brake lose.


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## Adamant soul (Dec 16, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Were the spoilers about Ren being some watered down Caedus true?
> 
> That's all I'm really curious about tbh



More like a watered down Darth Vader than anything else. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



He is Han and Leia's son though.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Dec 16, 2015)

Adamant soul said:


> More like a watered down Darth Vader else.
> *Spoiler*: __
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*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, not like I had high expectations for the film anyway


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## Rivers (Dec 16, 2015)

Well, just to breakdown his feats:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1. Stopping a blaster bolt in mid-air for at least a few minutes, while conversing (with Poe) and giving orders to his troopers. Then letting it fly onwards when he decides to leave.

2. Mind probing Poe's mind for information (who previously resisted all other types of interrogation).

3. Stopping Rey in her tracks (who was shooting at him), holding her entire body completely still and then knocking her unconscious with the force.

4. Taking a hit from Chewies Bowcaster in the gut, but able to continue fighting afterwards (though clearly hampered).

5. Force pushing Rey 20 meters up and backwards into a tree (while he was already injured).




Chewie's Bowcaster is serious business. It can knock a Stormtrooper backwards in the air and have the body do a couple flips before hitting the ground.


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## Adamant soul (Dec 16, 2015)

slayedigneel said:


> Any decent jedi master would destroy him.
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> *Spoiler*: __
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*Spoiler*: __ 



It could be argued that the remnants of light within Kylo gimped his training progress hence why Snoak said they would finish his training at the end of the movie because he had finally dealt with that issue.


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## Kaaant (Dec 16, 2015)

Weirdly enough his name is 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Ben


 lol


*Spoiler*: __ 



He soldiers on against Fin and Rey after being shot in the gut(?) but acts like the biggest pussy about it. Has major daddy issues, huge inferiority complex to Vader, etc




force-wise: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Gets fucking out muscled in a force competition with Rey, who's fucking self taught the force to herself in the same day. Had me like


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## Kaaant (Dec 16, 2015)

Also am I the only one that noticed the fantastic ftl reactions of Han Solo?


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## Rivers (Dec 16, 2015)

slayedigneel said:


> Any decent jedi master would destroy him.
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She brings around her staff, so she's not completely new to melee weapons.


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## Kaaant (Dec 16, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Also, Fin putting up a fight against Kylo, yet getting his ass handed by some random storm trooper?






Rivers said:


> Well, just to breakdown his feats:
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Also worth noting that Kylo 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Was actually trained by Luke, plus slaughtered all his other apprentices by himself, so he should probably win?


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## Adamant soul (Dec 16, 2015)

Rivers said:


> Well, just to breakdown his feats:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
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*Spoiler*: __ 



1) Badass scene to start the movie with but nothing particularly impressive among force users.

2) Again, nothing most force users couldn't replicate. Rey, a complete novice not only no-sold his mind-rape but managed to mind-rape him in turn.

3) Yet anytime Rey actually used the force against him, Kylo was completely outmatched by her. Stopping her when she hadn't even tapped into the force yet isn't impressive nor is it relevant.

4) Still doesn't excuse him taking a hit from a stormtrooper with barely a couple of days experience tops.

5) She wasn't using the force then and again, everytime she did she overpowered him.


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## Rivers (Dec 16, 2015)

Kaaant said:


> *Spoiler*: __
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> Also, Fin putting up a fight against Kylo, yet getting his ass handed by some random storm trooper?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Not exactly a "random storm trooper" since the guy had the additional / specialised weapon of that spinning electrified baton, and was well trained with it. 

Again Kylo was bleeding out throughout his entire fight with Fin, and then with Rey. Honestly, I'm not that fussed about his performance because...c'mon he deserved a beating, I wanted him to get a beating...and yeah, the movie delivered on that. If only Rey knew how to Saberthrow...Kylo wouldnt be in the next movie. LOL


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## Revan Reborn (Dec 16, 2015)

Rivers said:


> *Spoiler*: __
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or force jump lel.


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## Kaaant (Dec 16, 2015)

Rivers said:


> *Spoiler*: __
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*Spoiler*: __ 



He basically was. Did he have anything on his armour that differentiated him from the others? I can't remember. 

Yeah I know that'll be the excuse, plus he took hits from Fin as well.

Seriously though, how funny was it that Han could time exiting hyperspace before hitting the planet, and after passing the shield?


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## Rivers (Dec 17, 2015)

Adamant soul said:


> *Spoiler*: __
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*Spoiler*: __ 



1.  Actually, it's still decently impressive for Knight-level in movie canon. He was holding it there while talking to Poe, and then his stormtroopers. It's a multi-tasking feat and casual one it seems too.

2. Yeah, I suppose so.

3. I'm breaking down feats of his TK for those who haven't seen the movie yet but are still interested in reading this thread. It helps build a more complete view of his capabilities.  If it's a non-factor in this match, it's up for them to decide. Again in the forest, he was bleeding out throughout the entire fight.  Not necessarily a justification, but a factor not to leave out.  

4. He took a direct hit with the Starwars equivalent of a Shotgun to the gut. Im surprise they made him get up, though they did it to obviously imply he spent a lot of the force to just keep the injury/bleeding in check. Im not particularly fussed one way or the other.  

5. Same factor from 3 and 4. Remember EPII Obiwan got 2 nicks from a Lightsaber and he was TKO. A direct hit from Chewie's Bowcaster packed WAAAY more of a punch and it doesnt even seal up the wound.


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## Fang (Dec 17, 2015)

Sounds like TESB Luke is too much for Kylo. Certainly as a duelist with only a few weeks under his belt when training with Yoda in the movie. I mean his low-end bad-showing is getting knocked out by a Wampa while he was distracted.

Also remember, Luke managed a grazing strike on Vader.

And from the sounds of it, Vader is already far far far too much for Kylo.


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## Samurai Navarre (Dec 17, 2015)

A bit early for this thread since the movie is not out yet but from what I understand it would take ROTJ Luke to beat Kylo. Because that Luke's training was finished and he was a Jedi master. And chances are Kylo is more powerful than Darth Vader at least if not The Emperor himself.


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## Rivers (Dec 17, 2015)

Samurai Navarre said:


> A bit early for this thread since the movie is not out yet but from what I understand it would take ROTJ Luke to beat Kylo. Because that Luke's training was finished and he was a Jedi master. And chances are Kylo is more powerful than Darth Vader at least if not The Emperor himself.



Well the movie has been out for 16 hours over here. 

Anyways, 


*Spoiler*: __ 



At the end of the movie it's stated that Kylo's training is actually incomplete, that's why I put a version of Luke who's comfortable with the basics but essentially also has incomplete training. 

Also, it is mentioned Kylo was actually first being trained by Luke Skywalker (along with a new generation of Jedi / force-sensitives). But Kylo fell into darkness and was actually part of the killing of the rest of the trainees. That's what made Luke leave since he felt responsible for all of their deaths.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Dec 17, 2015)

Rivers said:


> Well the movie has been out for 16 hours over here.
> 
> Anyways,
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*Spoiler*: __ 



If he felt responsible for their deaths, he shouldn't have taken a nose dive as a character and bitch out the same way Spidey did on responsibility when he made that deal with Mephisto then

Disappointing character development for the paragon hero of yore

Just makes him sound like a self pitying asshole 

Granted, I need to see the movie first, but this sounds like shit


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## martryn (Dec 17, 2015)

*Spoiler*: _for ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)_ 



That bowcaster was blowing the fuck out of stormtroopers the entire film, and Han himself talked it up big in the movie more than once.  Kylo just tanking a shot to the gut with it, and then able to do combat with an uninjured Finn and besting him?  

Sure, Finn is just "random stormtrooper" or whatever, but he's still trained from birth, young and healthy, and probably had at least a bit of the force working in his favor.  

I'd give it to Luke still, but we haven't really seen Ren do anything yet, so it's hard to judge his ability based on his injured fight scene.


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## Rivers (Dec 17, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
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*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, he went out on a pilgrimage to find the very first Jedi Temple. That was said to contain the secrets and energies of both the Light and Darkside of the Force.

Most likely to get a better understanding of the Force, so that he can prevent other force-sensitives from falling to the Darkside as Kylo did.




*@ martryn:* Maybe spoiler that bro...? But yeah, there's some Chewie Bowcaster underestimation going on.


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## TasteTheDifference (Dec 17, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I would say Luke pretty easily, it seems as though Kylo is only a talented force user, not a prodigy like anakin luke and rey


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 17, 2015)

Samurai Navarre said:


> A bit early for this thread since the movie is not out yet but from what I understand it would take ROTJ Luke to beat Kylo. Because that Luke's training was finished and he was a Jedi master. *And chances are Kylo is more powerful than Darth Vader at least if not The Emperor himself.*


Yeah that's bullshit. From what I have read about his performance he would be lucky to even win against a random Jedi Knight then to actually win against any of those three.


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## Rivers (Dec 17, 2015)

Adamant soul said:


> Luke destroys him easily. He was praised by Vader and trained (however briefly) by two Jedi Masters including Yoda himself. Kylo on the other hand.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
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To be fair, 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Kylo was first trained under Luke in his new academy it seems, before the former decided to kill everyone else in his class. He was then mentored by Snoke in the ways of the darkside, who was stated to being pivotal in corrupting Kylo even with Luke as his teacher.

Anyways, I can actually see Kylo taking out both Fin and Rey, if he was NOT injured to begin with. But by the end of the movie I wanted him to get a beating, so I cant complain about the results. lol


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## Saitou Hajime (Dec 17, 2015)

I'm going against the grain and say that Ren beats Luke. Luke had less training than Ren and arguably nearly as mentally unprepared heading into his confrontation with Vader. If this is Ren at the start of the film, before he learned about the reemergence of his father and got messed up as a result, IMO he was mentally stable enough and with greater skills to go over Luke.


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## Fang (Dec 17, 2015)

Problem:

1. Like others said, Kylo struggled with Finn.
2. Vader is considerably above Kylo in terms of dueling or Force power
3. Luke had a month's time of training and even put on the defensive still manage to inflict a wound on Vader's shoulder while getting through his guard
4. Vader was psychologically manipulating and attacking Luke throughout their duel to push him closer to the dark side; Kylo has no such edge
5. Luke hits harder then Kylo and mimics Anakin's/Vader's preference with Ataru, Shien, and Djem So

Really not seeing how current Kylo can beat TESB Luke


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Dec 17, 2015)

Luke actually managed to put up a fairly impressive defensive struggle against vader, and managed a glancing blow which pissed him off to the point he started Djem So'ing his ass till he took off Luke's hand. Ren isn't even remotely in TESB Luke's league considering his showings in Jar Jar's Slaughter of My Childhood Awakens


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## Fang (Dec 17, 2015)

Also as a general reminder: a TESB Luke is shown to be more impressive as a duelist then Cin Drallig who a weaker Anakin could duel while Force-Choking two of his apprentices without looking at them at the same time during the Jedi Temple siege.

Cin Drallig, who was the Battlemaster of the Old Jedi Order.
A Jedi master specifically selected and appointed as the chief lightsaber combat instructor because of his mastery in all of the forms of lightsaber combat.

Anakin crushed him.

Yeah.


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## Extravlad (Dec 17, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Rey is a mary sue don't think you can draw any conclusion from her fight with Kylo.
Although Kylo did sucks for most of the movie and would probably get crushed by Luke.


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## Rivers (Dec 17, 2015)

For now,

Lightsaber skills: Kylo < *Luke* 
Force telekenisis: *Kylo* > Luke
Force agility / speed: Kylo < *Luke* 
Force sense (sit. awareness): *Kylo* = *Luke*
Endurance: *Kylo* > Luke


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## Fang (Dec 17, 2015)

Not seeing the endurance edge for Kylo unless you mean by taking damage, then maybe. Stamina wise and with battle precog, I'd still give it to Luke.


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## Lucaniel (Dec 17, 2015)

Adamant soul said:


> Luke destroys him easily. He was praised by Vader and trained (however briefly) by two Jedi Masters including Yoda himself. Kylo on the other hand.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
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*Spoiler*: __ 



kylo was shot in the gut before that fight started


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 17, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Can't tell if Rey is just that much a mary sue in some laughable attempt at corporate female energy like Disney usually does or Kylo sucks that much


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 17, 2015)

Fair enough I suppose.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 17, 2015)

Top kek at the downplay on page one 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Kylo ren was in emotional turmoil from killing his own father, shot in the gut by chewie bowcaster (shown multiple times to be significantly more powerful than any other blaster in the film), sprinted all the way there in the cold to arrive before them from a longer distance away and literally spent half the fight turned away from his actual opponent smashing his own chest to keep his lungs working. It's clear that ren was styling all over Finn and the only thing holding him back was his significant injury.

As for rey, it's heavily implied the force was guiding every action she made in the second half of the fight and it's also very heavily implied, if not outright stated that her *potential* is luke tier


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## Kaaant (Dec 17, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



She literally self taught the force and beat kylo in the same day, and kylo should have similar force potential. Mind you Anakin's lightsaber called out to her, so I wonder if it also gave her some kind of buff on top of all that happened


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## ChaosTheory123 (Dec 17, 2015)

Rivers said:


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And he doesn't do this AFTER dealing with Ren why?

Did he not have the chance?  Or is he making an even bigger mistake than the previous fucking Order had?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 17, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



we don't hear luke's side of the story

as far as the galaxy is concerned the guy is practically a myth and nobody is really sure why exactly he left

Han says to Rey that it's because Kylo Ren went bad and killed the other students but honestly that's more of a guess and Han might be overemphasizing it for reasons that make more sense when you actually watch the scene

I could explain it here but idk how much you care about spoilers


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## ChaosTheory123 (Dec 17, 2015)

Nighty said:


> I could explain it here but idk how much you care about spoilers



I used to care, but posting here the past 5 years has numbed me to giving a shit with just about everything I check out getting spoiled in some stupid ass debate thread anyway


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## ChaosTheory123 (Dec 17, 2015)

Nighty said:


> who knows, it'll doubtless be explained more in the eighth



I can hope, but I'm not holding my breath


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## Venice (Dec 17, 2015)

Might as well ask here, but could TPM Kenobi beat Kylo going just by film showings? Already read Kylos stuff, he seems pretty legit.


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## Rivers (Dec 18, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


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*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, I'd imagine Kylo had left to join The First Order and we see him station at the new top secret Starkiller Base in the movie. The Resistance dont know of it's location till well into the movie when Finn defects and meets up with Resistance.


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## Tom Servo (Dec 18, 2015)

Adamant soul said:


> *Spoiler*: __
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> 
> 
> It could be argued that the remnants of light within Kylo gimped his training progress hence why Snoak said they would finish his training at the end of the movie because he had finally dealt with that issue.



[sp]So what's the consensus on whether or not Snoke is Plageus? Heard decent arguments for both sides.[/sp]


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2015)

Kylo's a Padawan.  And not the type that Luke was pre-Yoda.


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## AngryHeretic (Dec 18, 2015)

Vader > ESB Luke >>>> Rey with a single day of self-training >= Kylo Ren.

Yeah, I get Ren was injured during their battle, but there is no way the injury should have enabled Rey to beat him if Ren was any good.


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## Rivers (Dec 18, 2015)

Mider T said:


> Kylo's a Padawan.  And not the type that *Luke was pre-Yoda*.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yet some believe Rey already reached _pre-Yoda Luke_ in this movie alone...seem legit?






AngryHeretic said:


> Vader > ESB Luke >>>> *Rey with a single day of self-training *>= Kylo Ren.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Is she not "Luke-on-Hoth" level, or "pre-Dagobah" Luke anyway, regardless of timespan? What does her feats show?

- Force visions / premonitions when she first found the lightsaber.
- Mind tricking the Stormtrooper on guard (on her second attempt).
- Resisting a force mind reading, while doing some mind reading back.
- Force pulling the lightsaber into her own hands from a great distance.
- Her "trust in the force" moment, centring herself into a force valour state.
- Channelling the force to guide / enhance her moments in agility, precision / strength etc. 

_"Single day of self-training"_ doesnt come close to describing all of the above really.






AngryHeretic said:


> Yeah, I get Ren was injured during their battle, but there is no way the injury should have enabled Rey to beat him if Ren was any good.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Kylo Ren tanked this shot before doing any fighting  though:


​

*Spoiler*: __ 



Do you think such an injury wouldn't have troubled someone that was any good? How many movie canon Jedi/Sith have suffered worse and kept on fighting...?


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## Tom Servo (Dec 18, 2015)

TehChron said:


> Because he didnt have his lightsaber on him



Doesn't really change the fact that he should be able to end The Rancor in ways that would make Jabba puke. Or hell even straight up beat the piss out of him. His training was complete at the time this happened.


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## Illairen (Dec 18, 2015)

Rey is too strong. Such a growth of force powers in one day makes me cringe. It`s completely unrealistic. Not even Anakin Skywalker was that talented.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Dec 18, 2015)

Both of you knock it off. This has nothing to do with the thread.


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## trance (Dec 18, 2015)

Pretty sure Luke rekts.


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2015)

TESB before his training with Yoda was able to summon and use TK to retrieve his lightsaber, use clairvoyance during the Death Star trench run to visually target the thermal exhaust port of the Death Star and so on. Add in Yoda's training and he was using Force Speed and Force Jumping to the point Vader lost track of him when he tried to freeze him in the Bespin Carbonite Freezing chamber.

Also using telepathy to communicate with both Leia and Vader.


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## AngryHeretic (Dec 18, 2015)

Rivers said:
			
		

> -snip-



Vader no-sold more damage than that. Even in movie canon, he tanked far more damage than Chewie's bowcaster, in Rebels. And to be fair, we don't have very many examples of Jedi getting injured by singular blaster bolts. They either:

1. Get through battles without injury
2. Get blasted over and over, and die (i.e. the Order 66 scenes)
3. Or get killed at the hands of a lightsaber.

So for all we know, someone like Obi-Wan could tank an attack like that with the force, via either healing or force protection. Or not even Obi-Wan, but a lesser knight. 

I agree though. I can't help but think of Rey as the movie canon equivalent of Kyle Katarn. Both have tremendous force potential, and develop their powers far more quickly than even Anakin, but have less overall potential than him. I doubt she will become as powerful as Anakin, but she will reach her full power sooner. I would still say ESB Luke, after training with Yoda and somewhat holding his own against Vader, is more impressive than anyone in TFA (except Snoke, maybe?)


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 18, 2015)

>using vader as an example of what force users should be able to tank

lmaoing at ur life


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## Mider T (Dec 18, 2015)

Rivers said:


> *Spoiler*: __
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> Yet some believe Rey already reached _pre-Yoda Luke_ in this movie alone...seem legit?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Not to sound cliche but...the force is strong within him, but he is not a  Sith  Jedi yet.

Luke was not gifted in the Force (for a Skywalker at least) like Kylo but he was far better at lightsaber dueling and understanding his inner peace.  His force sensitivity was greatly improved after Yoda's training.

Kylo is more like a prodigy who is terrible at controlling his emotions and powers, even moreso than Anakin.

Speaking of raw power, Rey is on track to become possibly the most powerful Jedi ever.  She pretty much taught herself up to Anakin Clone Wars skill-level in the span of a few hours.  Not to mention she's somewhat of a genius when it comes ships and engineering.   If Luke teaches her like Yoda then there's no stopping her.  As of now, only Kylo is aware of her potential though he'll probably tell Snoke soon.


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## AngryHeretic (Dec 18, 2015)

I beg to differ, on Luke being less of a prodigy than Ren. I think Luke's force power just expressed itself differently than Ren's. Whereas Ren seems very skilled at telepathy and such - a trait he shares with Rey -Luke and Anakin were both exceptional pilots even before receiving any force training. It isn't stated outright but it's extremely likely the force played a role in Luke being so good a pilot just as it did with Anakin. I doubt Kylo was any stronger than Luke was in the force, before either of them received training.

And anyway, how quickly you pick up the force isn't necessarily a sign of overall potential. At least in the EU it isn't, maybe they will go that route in the movie canon? :shrug


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## Matta Clatta (Dec 18, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I doubt Kylo was really trying to kill Rey though
I mean Snoke told him to bring her to him at some points he's definitely trying against her but others like when he says she needs a teacher he definitely isn't.

Is it enough to not call him a jobber? Not really since Finn managed to hurt him and Chewie could shoot him when theoretically after killing Han that would have made him go full dark side and be stronger.




In any case Kylo is a lot more durable than Luke. Maybe that will be enough to beat Luke


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## Kaaant (Dec 18, 2015)

He was pretty much mid offer to train her to use the force when she beat him^


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## Merlight (Dec 18, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 




First off, Ren needs to learn sith lightning 

Second, Fin wasn't taken seriously by Ren.
Ren didn't even bother to force push Fin like he did to Rey, so him showing off his saber skills and wasting his time on a stormtrooper is Ren's decision to dick around with him and make him suffer.
And he wanted his granddad's saber back by killing the prior owner.

Third, I would expect Ren to have more training than the small amount of time Luke did with Yoda, so he should be better off in experience; being raised up from birth and eventually getting training from Luke till he's a young adult and then getting further training from Snoke. Luke had what, a month or two?

Fourth, Vader in ESB was holding back A LOT to not kill Luke, evidenced by his statement of wanting him to join him and being hesitant to destroy him. Trying to compare that to Vader's serious showings doesn't make much sense? Luke is more of a newbie Padawan at the level he was when he fought Vader.

I figure Ren should win...and I can't change my vote.




Movie met the hype.


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## Iwandesu (Dec 18, 2015)

> Movie met the hype


A vader and a deathstar wannabes met your hype? 
Jesus bro, check your standards 
Ill give you han was really cool,tho 
On topic ren is a pussy and too much of a jobber to be considered in luke level with the little of information we have about him


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## Rivers (Dec 18, 2015)

Merlight said:


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Well it's nice to see you enjoyed the movie. I might see it again with my brother next time. Take notes on the fight scenes.

Btw if you voted wrong just PM a mod to edit your choice if you want.

Anyway, I doubt anyone will deny Rey being early ESB Luke level before actually receiving proper/formal training.


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## Kaaant (Dec 18, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> A vader and a *deathstar wannabes* met your hype?
> Jesus bro, check your standards
> Ill give you han was really cool,tho
> On topic ren is a pussy and too much of a jobber to be considered in luke level with the little of information we have about him



Deathstar wannabe in the sense it's colossally bigger and more powerful, plus did something two Death Stars couldn't, and casually? Plus being an actual success and no doubt is gonna lead to shit hitting the fan in the sequels. 

Kylo wasn't as bad for me watching it the second time around tbh. I'm slightly more understanding to how he lost (ultimately didn't want to kill Reyry Sue, but still shouldn't have lost.)

Anyone read the novelisation? Might do some well needed damage control.


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## trance (Dec 18, 2015)

Merlight said:


> Luke is more of a newbie Padawan at the level he was when he fought Vader





A weaker incarnation of Vader could beat down Jedi Masters with power to spare. Luke is well above mere padawan level. In TESB, it's even said that Luke was powerful enough to give Vader a challenge.



> Although he had been only briefly instructed by Yoda, Luke Skywalker showed great ability in the Force during his duel with Darth Vader on Bespin. He had enough strength to challenge Vader, but Luke was far too hasty.


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## Lucaniel (Dec 18, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



tfw rey is considered a mary sue for being able to challenge a gutshot and wounded half-trained sith but it's a-okay with the same idiots that luke was able to challenge darth fucking vader after a little bit of training


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## Iwandesu (Dec 18, 2015)

Kaaant said:


> Deathstar wannabe in the sense it's colossally bigger and more powerful, plus did something two Death Stars couldn't, and casually? Plus being an actual success and no doubt is gonna lead to shit hitting the fan in the sequels.


>Casually 
Is this how you calls a 12 hours charge time to do the same shit death star did within 15 minutes?  
I mean i know there is a huge power boost but come on


> Kylo wasn't as bad for me watching it the second time around tbh. I'm slightly more understanding to how he lost (ultimately didn't want to kill Reyry Sue, but still shouldn't have lost.)
> 
> Anyone read the novelisation? Might do some well needed damage control.


He wasnt as bad of a jobber? 
How ?
The fact he didnt deflect chewie shotting him within his FOV is already pis as fuck  (then again he was likely static by finally doing _that thing)_


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 18, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> >Casually
> Is this how you calls a 12 hours charge time to do the same shit death star did within 15 minutes?
> 
> 
> ...



then it's not "PIS as fuck"

it's a reasonable consequence of his psychological state at the time

try to watch movies like a person instead of an autistic nerd and you'll do better


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Dec 18, 2015)

Kylo was like "FUCK YEAH NOW I CAN FINALLY BE A COOL SITH LORD" more than anything when chewie shot him


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 18, 2015)

tell me about kylo ren

why does he wear the mask


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 18, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Kylo was like "FUCK YEAH NOW I CAN FINALLY BE A COOL SITH LORD" more than anything when chewie shot him





Lucaniel said:


> try to watch movies like a person instead of an autistic nerd and you'll do better






Nighty said:


> tell me about kylo ren
> 
> why does he wear the mask



perhaps he's wondering why someone would stab a man

before throwing him off a bridge


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Dec 18, 2015)

It was a joke, luc


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 18, 2015)

after saga's "this sucked cuz there werent any cool lightsaber fights and kylo wuz a bitch...i'll take phantom menace over this" and willy's "i actually like the prequels besides anakin and i havent killed myself for having this opinion", my meter for this stuff kinda broke


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Dec 18, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> after saga's "this sucked cuz there werent any cool lightsaber fights and kylo wuz a bitch...i'll take phantom menace over this" and willy's "i actually like the prequels besides anakin and i havent killed myself for having this opinion", my meter for this stuff kinda broke


----------



## Merlight (Dec 18, 2015)

Kyouko said:


> A weaker incarnation of Vader could beat down Jedi Masters with power to spare. Luke is well above mere padawan level. In TESB, it's even said that Luke was powerful enough to give Vader a challenge.



Luke did deflect the force barrage of machinery that got chucked at him for a while. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Ren needs a mask after his face got scarred, apparently muh sister thinks he's hot anyway.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 18, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> perhaps he's wondering why someone would stab a man
> 
> before throwing him off a bridge



at least you can talk

who are you?


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 18, 2015)

Nighty said:


> at least you can talk
> 
> who are you?



we're not gonna do the whole plane scene, are we? cuz the next two lines don't even need to be altered with SW specific terms in order to fit so it'd just be weird


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Dec 18, 2015)

I'm crashing this franchise with no survivors- Jar Jar Abrams 2015


----------



## Kaaant (Dec 18, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> >Casually
> Is this how you calls a 12 hours charge time to do the same shit death star did within 15 minutes?
> I mean i know there is a huge power boost but come on



Was more referring to the fact it shoots across the galaxy. A Google search tells me it's actually 24 hours  but I imagine the cool down is offset by the deathstar having to get into position whereas no one was safe from starkiller base, plus it could hit multiple targets. The only real negative is the fact it has to eat a sun as its power source. (Found it funny that it consumes a sun many times its size, yet upon its destruction becomes a planet-sized sun)

Plus it actually had a viable shield protecting the whole planet, so much so Han had to ftl react his way onto it (greatest feat in the film )

With that in mind I didn't get why the rebels didn't just pearl harbour that shit with fighters



> He wasnt as bad of a jobber?
> How ?
> The fact he didnt deflect chewie shotting him within his FOV is already pis as fuck  (then again he was likely static by finally doing _that thing)_



I'm willing to give it a pass considering he'd literally just killed his father. No doubt distracted and conflicted going by how long it took him to kill han. Fin obviously got a hit as a result of kylo being shot by chewie (still bs), and Rey got the advantage from that. Seconds before her bullshit powerup Kylo literally offered to train her so he clearly wasn't trying to kill her. 

I also read someone post online that there's a lot more detail in the novel that the movie skips out on. Apparently Snoke and Kylo both know who she is, plus snoke ordered kylo to bring her in 

Still bs, but not as bad as I thought initially


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 18, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> we're not gonna do the whole plane scene, are we? cuz the next two lines don't even need to be altered with SW specific terms in order to fit so it'd just be weird



I couldn't think of anything for that line

originally I wanted to do "who paid you to grab rey" but it would be chronologically inaccurate if I did


----------



## Fang (Dec 18, 2015)

Tbh I wasn't really impressed by any of the lightsaber duels in Episode VII and that's adding in and factoring for the obvious fact that Kylo is still an apprentice, Rey has no proper training at all and obviously Finn being a non-Force sensitive who was just lashing out emotionally while Kylo took his time.


----------



## The Runner (Dec 18, 2015)

Here is a perfect description of (Ben Solo)Kylo Ren's situation with Finn and Rey.


----------



## Rivers (Dec 19, 2015)

AngryHeretic said:


> Vader no-sold more damage than that. Even in movie canon, he tanked far more damage than Chewie's bowcaster, in Rebels. And to be fair, we don't have very many examples of Jedi getting injured by singular blaster bolts. They either:
> 
> 1. Get through battles without injury
> 2. Get blasted over and over, and die (i.e. the Order 66 scenes)
> ...



What have you seen to suggest this?

Obiwan goes out of commission from a couple cuts in his battle in AotC.


----------



## Qinglong (Dec 19, 2015)

Rivers said:


> What have you seen to suggest this?
> 
> Obiwan passes out in pain from a couple cuts in his battle in AotC.



He got that  (which while took him out of the action for some time he still survived) and w and survived those well enough to go h2h with Jango soon after


----------



## Pocalypse (Dec 19, 2015)

Just wait till Snoke trains Kylo, no one's gonna resist dem hands


----------



## Kaaant (Dec 19, 2015)

Don't know why I'm seeing so many people saying kylo is > palpatine online


----------



## The Runner (Dec 19, 2015)

I say Kylo takes this. He has better feats than Luke, and much better training, considering he himself was trained by both Jedi Master Luke and Snoke.


----------



## Fang (Dec 19, 2015)

He got beaten by untrained Rey, he's not beating TESB Luke.


----------



## The Runner (Dec 19, 2015)

1. Kylo was bleeding from the blaster wound he received, wasn't at top form
2. Fucker just killed his own father as he very much got torn doing so. So he was emotionally compromised
3. Ray beat him after she got amped by the force. 
4. Kylo has better for feats than ESB Luke, and is clearly much more skilled using a lightsaber.


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## Kaaant (Dec 19, 2015)

Think I've said about three times. Kylo wanted to train her, snoke told him to bring her in. And supposedly in the novel they both know who she really is.


----------



## Fang (Dec 19, 2015)

SuperJoggaCypher the 3rd said:


> 1. Kylo was bleeding from the blaster wound he received, wasn't at top form



He was using the pain to focus his power in the dark side.




> 2. Fucker just killed his own father as he very much got torn doing so. So he was emotionally compromised



That's not Luke's problem. 



> 3. Ray beat him after she got amped by the force.



Rey out-dueled him in pure lightsaber combat without using any Force powers.



> 4. Kylo has better for feats than ESB Luke, and is clearly much more skilled using a lightsaber.



Bullshit on both. Ren is inconsistent, he can react to a blaster bolt fired in an ambush attack from 180 degrees yet Chewie is in the corner of his field of vision and he can't react to it. He also got cut and injured by Finn, who got beaten by a non-Force sensitive Stormtrooper in close combat.

He isn't winning this.


----------



## TehChron (Dec 19, 2015)

Kaaant said:


> Don't know why I'm seeing so many people saying kylo is > palpatine online



Because they're morons


----------



## The Runner (Dec 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> He was using the pain to focus his power in the dark side.


He was bleeding out... Not to mention that he was even beating his sides to *ignore* the pain.





> That's not Luke's problem.


Not sure why you mention Luke. The emotional handicap was the reason he got bested, we're not putting it in the scenario..





> Rey out-dueled him in pure lightsaber combat without using any Force powers.


Did you see the movie? Kylo had her by the cliff, then he mentioned that he could train her using the force. The moment he mentioned it, Rey closed her eyes and calmed herself, and used the force to out-deul him. There is a reason why she was suddenly out duelling him after he clearly dominated her before.




> Bullshit on both. Ren is inconsistent,


We use his best feats, aren't we? So it doesn't matter.



> he can react to a blaster bolt fired in an ambush attack from 180 degrees yet Chewie is in the corner of his field of vision and he can't react to it.


He was kind of having that whole "Thousand yard stare" due to that, you know, emotional moment where he kills his own _father_. 



> He also got cut and injured by Finn, who got beaten by a non-Force sensitive Stormtrooper in close combat.


That's because Kylo was fucking with him. The guy was twirling his lightsaber like a punk and pacing back and forth. This the same situation as when Vader got harmed by Luke in ESB. It's the entire reason why Kylo didn't just freeze Finn in place like he did with Ray many scenes before. That and, like I said, he was injured.



> He isn't winning this.


I disagree

Question, what are any of Luke's feats? All I remember was him force jumping and him lifting a bunch of crates while standing on his hands.


----------



## Fang (Dec 19, 2015)

SuperJoggaCypher the 3rd said:


> He was bleeding out... Not to mention that he was even beating his sides to *ignore* the pain.



He was deriving power and focus by smacking his wound, increasing his attunment to the dark side. He was not crippled by the wound from Chewie's bowcaster like you're claiming. Ren was injured but seemed to grow stronger from it once he confronted Rey and Finn outside on the planet.



> Not sure why you mention Luke. The emotional handicap was the reason he got bested, we're not putting it in the scenario..



No, it was not. He was bested because he was over-powered and out-dueled by Rey. 



> Did you see the movie? Kylo had her by the cliff, then he mentioned that he could train her using the force. The moment he mentioned it, Rey closed her eyes and calmed herself, and used the force to out-deul him. There is a reason why she was suddenly out duelling him after he clearly dominated her before.



I know more about Star Wars then you. I've watched the movie, he was trying to shove her off the cliff when their lightsabers were locked together and she completely dominated him from that point onwards. 



> We use his best feats, aren't we? So it doesn't matter.



>cherry picking to only have high end stuff
>ignoring lower showings so you can have your cake and eat it at the same time

No, doesn't work that way here.




> He was kind of having that whole "Thousand yard stare" due to that, you know, emotional moment where he kills his own _father_.



And so? That magically makes his prescient and precognitive abilities disappear? A wookiee who fucking loudly roars about 100 feet away from him in the side of his vision and he can't react to that is still something that happened.

You are not really getting that his powers are inconsistent.


> That's because Kylo was fucking with him. The guy was twirling his lightsaber like a punk and pacing back and forth. This the same situation as when Vader got harmed by Luke in ESB. It's the entire reason why Kylo didn't just freeze Finn in place like he did with Ray many scenes before. That and, like I said, he was injured.



Vader dominated Luke during their duel on Cloud City, that doesn't change the fact that Luke had 3 years of informal self-taught tutoring in the Jedi ways and over a month's time of formal instruction with Yoda. He managed to actually get past Vader's defenses and strike a glancing blow.

Ren got struck by Finn, a man who has so far no confirmed connection to the Force. A man who was decisively bested and stomped into the ground by a stun-baton wielding Stormtrooper specialist with little effort, and who Ren showed no sign of injury being handicapped against.

His saber skills are terrible.

You aren't going to correlate Luke getting a strike against Vader to Finn against Ren.




> I disagree
> 
> Question, what are any of Luke's feats? All I remember was him force jumping and him lifting a bunch of crates while standing on his hands.


[/QUOTE]

Precognition in Episode IV.
Telekinesis and Force Speed in Episode V. 
His natural style mimics Vader's own: Shien, Djem So, and Ataru.

Luke has plenty of feats.


----------



## Iwandesu (Dec 19, 2015)

Rey literally outdueled him force wise when he was trying his best to get information out her
Kylo was just a joke in general


----------



## Kaaant (Dec 19, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> Rey literally outdueled him force wise when he was trying his best to get information out her
> Kylo was just a joke in general



That's not how it works. But she does overpower him in the force as he reaches for Anakin's lightsaber. 

Which is bullshit

In the novel he hits a wall in her mind which lets her enter his supposedly.


----------



## The Runner (Dec 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> He was deriving power and focus by smacking his wound, increasing his attunment to the dark side. He was not crippled by the wound from Chewie's bowcaster like you're claiming. Ren was injured but seemed to grow stronger from it once he confronted Rey and Finn outside on the planet.


He was clearly tired and in pain, the beating of his chest was him dealing with it. He was even pacing around while beating it.




> No, it was not. He was bested because he was over-powered and out-dueled by Rey.


And the REASON why he was outdueled by Ray was because she had dat force amp AND he was injured. She was in-tune with the force, just like she used the force unknowingly to fly the Falcon. Not to mention that she was pretty skilled with her bow, all things considered.




> I know more about Star Wars then you. I've watched the movie, he was trying to shove her off the cliff when their lightsabers were locked together and she completely dominated him from that point onwards.


 And WHY do you _think_ she started dominating him after that point onwards? Kylo had her in the ropes, he tried to seduce her to the dark side like any good sith lord should, she closed her eyes after mentioning the force, the music swelled, calmed herself, and started to get in-tune with the force, *then* she started outduelling him. Not to mention he's not really trying to kill her, per say, considering he not only asked her to join him, but was asked by Snoke himself to bring her to him.




> >cherry picking to only have high end stuff
> >ignoring lower showings so you can have your cake and eat it at the same time
> 
> No, doesn't work that way here.


I was under the impression that excluding low-ends was the thing here, other wise we just deal with some unclear stats instead of having both characters at their best.





> And so? That magically makes his prescient and precognitive abilities disappear? A wookiee who fucking loudly roars about 100 feet away from him in the side of his vision and he can't react to that is still something that happened.


It does when you are in a trance caused by the trauma of killing your own father.



> You are not really getting that his powers are inconsistent.


So is most of fiction, for that matter. 



> Vader dominated Luke during their duel on Cloud City, that doesn't change the fact that Luke had 3 years of informal self-taught tutoring in the Jedi ways and over a month's time of formal instruction with Yoda. He managed to actually get past Vader's defenses and strike a glancing blow.
> 
> Ren got struck by Finn, a man who has so far no confirmed connection to the Force. A man who was decisively bested and stomped into the ground by a stun-baton wielding Stormtrooper specialist with little effort, and who Ren showed no sign of injury being handicapped against.
> 
> ...



Finn got a lucky shot, thats about it. Ren was visibly bleeding out, beating his sides and chest to keep himself going, and even _then_ he was channeling his own Anakin and acting like a cocky shit with Finn. Finn got a lucky shot because Kylo underestimated him when he shouldn't have (considering he was injured), Vader got hit because he was also toying with Luke as well. I am definitely in-line with that.





> Precognition in Episode IV.
> Telekinesis and Force Speed in Episode V.
> His natural style mimics Vader's own: Shien, Djem So, and Ataru.
> 
> Luke has plenty of feats.


Kylo:
Stopped a blaster with the force
Mind probed some poor fucker
Paralysed Ray
Sent Ray a few meters or so to a tree
Taking a hit from Chewie's bow, though injured later.


----------



## TehChron (Dec 19, 2015)

No one's buying your wanking of Darth Hot Topic

And Luke almost lifted his X-Wing out of a swamp unassisted before he lost focus in TESB 

His telekinesis shits all over Kylo


----------



## Fang (Dec 19, 2015)

SuperJoggaCypher the 3rd said:


> He was clearly tired and in pain, the beating of his chest was him dealing with it. He was even pacing around while beating it.



No, he was hitting his side not his chest. He was hitting it specifically to feed off of the pain. It was very clearly put to us his reasons for hitting himself to fuel his anger and focus his power as a dark sider.



> And the REASON why he was outdueled by Ray was because she had dat force amp AND he was injured. She was in-tune with the force, just like she used the force unknowingly to fly the Falcon. Not to mention that she was pretty skilled with her bow, all things considered.



Rey didn't use any Force abilities to beat him. She simply drew concentration and completely dominated him physically. And skills with a fucking staff do not automatically translate to swordsmanship.

Ren is not a talented duelist all things considered. 



> And WHY do you _think_ she started dominating him after that point onwards? Kylo had her in the ropes, he tried to seduce her to the dark side like any good sith lord should, she closed her eyes after mentioning the force, the music swelled, calmed herself, and started to get in-tune with the force, *then* she started outduelling him. Not to mention he's not really trying to kill her, per say, considering he not only asked her to join him, but was asked by Snoke himself to bring her to him.



He was trying to kill her when they locked sabers and he had her pushing toward slipping off the cliff. His injuries had no bearing on his actual skills as a duelist, he was veering between wanting to kill her and wanting to recapture her and turn her to the dark side as Snookums wanted him to do so originally.




> I was under the impression that excluding low-ends was the thing here, other wise we just deal with some unclear stats instead of having both characters at their best.



At their best doesn't magically mean you hand-wave their lower showings and chalk it up as outlier inconsistency you get to happily ignore. That's not how the OBD works.




> It does when you are in a trance caused by the trauma of killing your own father.



He wasn't in a trance and he was looking at both Rey and Finn after they reacted to Han's death. Don't make things up.




> So is most of fiction, for that matter.



And this has to do with what as a defense? You are just trying to shift the goalpost here because he is a textbook character who is inconsistent in a single setting here with TFA. 

It still stands.



> Finn got a lucky shot, thats about it. Ren was visibly bleeding out, beating his sides and chest to keep himself going, and even _then_ he was channeling his own Anakin and acting like a cocky shit with Finn. Finn got a lucky shot because Kylo underestimated him when he shouldn't have (considering he was injured), Vader got hit because he was also toying with Luke as well. I am definitely in-line with that.



No, you aren't. Luke is a semi-trained Jedi and a powerful Force User to the point that the Emperor points out he's a grave threat that could destroy the both of them if he becomes a Jedi Knight. That single glancing strike Luke got in was his only moment on the offensive counter-attacking Vader throughout their duel after it moved from the Carbon Freezing chamber when the fight started.  Finn is a non-Force sensitive and combat inexperienced Stormtrooper. You pointedly even ignored the bit where he got kicked around and dominated by a non-Force sensitive stun-baton armed Stormtrooper in close combat as well.

Vader got hit because Luke was desperate and partially enraged when ducking Vader's over-extended cut, Finn hit Ren after shoving him back. It wasn't lucky, it was a tactical move. Ren is a shit duelist.

Stop trying to equate Finn with Luke.



> Kylo:
> Stopped a blaster with the force
> Mind probed some poor fucker
> Paralysed Ray
> ...



Kylo:
Got hit in the sides by a blaster bolt from Chewie who telegraphed his intent from a distance away when roaring loudly.
Got injured by a non-Force User in a lightsaber duel despite training from an unknown period under both Luke Skywalker and Snoke.
Got overpowered in a Force duel with TK against Rey when she snatched Anakin's lightsaber from his grab.
Got outdueled by a girl who has no Jedi training whatsoever.

He's lackluster.


----------



## The Runner (Dec 19, 2015)

TehChron said:


> No one's buying your wanking of Darth Hot Topic
> 
> *And Luke almost lifted his X-Wing out of a swamp unassisted before he lost focus in TESB *
> 
> His telekinesis shits all over Kylo



It was less "losing focus" and more "Not having faith in the force." The guy was tired because he believed it to be impossible due to it's size. He only managed to lift a tiny fraction of the ship, anyhow.


Not sure what I said qualifies as waking. I just stated that the low-ends feats Kylo had were due to either mental handicaps or physical handicaps.


----------



## TehChron (Dec 19, 2015)

Still a better TK feat buddy


----------



## The Runner (Dec 19, 2015)

TehChron said:


> Still a better TK feat buddy



Not sure about that myself. Is freezing a blast mid-strike for a few minutes as impressive as trying and failing to lift an X-Wing?



Fang said:


> No, he was hitting his side not his chest. He was hitting it specifically to feed off of the pain. It was very clearly put to us his reasons for hitting himself to fuel his anger and focus his power as a dark sider.


If you want to put it like that, then he's still trying to goad himself to keep it going regardless. He apparently needs it because he's injured. He's still bleeding out of his stomach, so he's definitely hindered.




> Rey didn't use any Force abilities to beat him. She simply drew concentration and completely dominated him physically. And skills with a fucking staff do not automatically translate to swordsmanship.
> 
> Ren is not a talented duelist all things considered.


She made herself get in-tune with the Force. She may not have TK'd him or some shit, but the scene itself indicated force using. Also, skills with a staff make it clear that she's used to combat.





> He was trying to kill her when they locked sabers and he had her pushing toward slipping off the cliff. His injuries had no bearing on his actual skills as a duelist, he was veering between wanting to kill her and wanting to recapture her and turn her to the dark side as Snookums wanted him to do so originally.


Bleeding out wont hinder your skill directly, but it definitely hinders you physically. Aside from that, yeah, I can agree with this.





> At their best doesn't magically mean you hand-wave their lower showings and chalk it up as outlier inconsistency you get to happily ignore. That's not how the OBD works.


So, by what you are sayingg. You want to include a feat where Kylo _does_ show impressive precognitive ability with the force, and another where he shows _shit_ precognitive ability with the force? Good luck with that.





> He wasn't in a trance and he was looking at both Rey and Finn after they reacted to Han's death. Don't make things up.


If that's the case, then it's PIS. Considering all the other times he's handily deflected blasts before.






> And this has to do with what as a defense? You are just trying to shift the goalpost here because he is a textbook character who is inconsistent in a single setting here with TFA.
> 
> It still stands.


Every single character in popular media has been inconsistent in one way or another.  This happens ALOT. From  The Mighty Thor to friggin' Mario. Especially when it comes to their power level. It's not new.




> No, you aren't. Luke is a semi-trained Jedi and a powerful Force User to the point that the Emperor points out he's a grave threat that could destroy the both of them if he becomes a Jedi Knight. That single glancing strike Luke got in was his only moment on the offensive counter-attacking Vader throughout their duel after it moved from the Carbon Freezing chamber when the fight started.  Finn is a non-Force sensitive and combat inexperienced Stormtrooper. *You pointedly even ignored the bit where he got kicked around and dominated by a non-Force sensitive stun-baton armed Stormtrooper in close combat as well.*
> 
> Vader got hit because Luke was desperate and partially enraged when ducking Vader's over-extended cut, Finn hit Ren after shoving him back. It wasn't lucky, it was a tactical move. Ren is a shit duelist.
> 
> *Stop trying to equate Finn with Luke.*


I'm not even doing that. I'm stating that the situation is mirrored. Finn got a lucky shot, but still got dominated. Luke got a lucky shot, but still got dominated. 

Kylo was toying with Finn, as he didn't even Paralyse him like he did with Ray, and was bleeding out.




> Kylo:
> Got hit in the sides by a blaster bolt from Chewie who telegraphed his intent from a distance away when roaring loudly.
> Got injured by a non-Force User in a lightsaber duel despite training from an unknown period under both Luke Skywalker and Snoke.
> Got overpowered in a Force duel with TK against Rey when she snatched Anakin's lightsaber from his grab.
> ...


Showed more impressive precognition abilities previously
Still took the hit although injured (Not to mention Han talked the blaster up throughout the movie)
Sliced Finn up regardless, despite clearly being injured by a blaster and bleeding on the snow.
Rey is more powerful in the force, big whoop.
Said girl was force amped and was overpowering the girl _before_ said force amp.




*Question to anybody with knowhow, are the new Marvel comics canon? If so, doesn't Luke have any feats there?*


----------



## Fang (Dec 19, 2015)

SuperJoggaCypher the 3rd said:


> If you want to put it like that, then he's still trying to goad himself to keep it going regardless. He apparently needs it because he's injured. He's still bleeding out of his stomach, so he's definitely hindered.



The visual guide book states he wears a special kind of armor. He's not bleeding intensively after he hits himself a few frozen drops of blood fall to the ground. If he needs to do this refocus himself, it just goes to show his mastery of the Force is very limited.

Its a demerit in his showings either way.



> She made herself get in-tune with the Force. She may not have TK'd him or some shit, but the scene itself indicated force using. Also, skills with a staff make it clear that she's used to combat.



So what? He has a large period of training under both Luke and Snoke. She has no such formal training. He has experience in combat, killing other Force-Users and potential Jedi when he had his meltdown and turn to the dark side. Rey's experience with a staff and fending off low level thugs should not magically translate to her having a chance with matching a trained Force-User in combat with a 1 on 1 duel.



> Bleeding out wont hinder your skill directly, but it definitely hinders you physically. Aside from that, yeah, I can agree with this.



He wasn't really bleeding out though.



> So, by what you are sayingg. You want to include a feat where Kylo _does_ show impressive precognitive ability with the force, and another where he shows _shit_ precognitive ability with the force? Good luck with that.



What I'm saying is he's inconsistent because  both times he's healthy before the attacks go down.



> If that's the case, then it's PIS. Considering all the other times he's handily deflected blasts before.



I fail to see how that's plot-induced-stupidity in any way. PIS is him not resorting to using the Force to subdue or incapacitate Rey, PIS is however not applicable to him ignoring an enraged wookiee whose his dad's literal life-partner and best friend going apeshit.

He's just dumb.




> Every single character in popular media has been inconsistent in one way or another.  This happens ALOT. From  The Mighty Thor to friggin' Mario. Especially when it comes to their power level. It's not new.



Yeah and so? This isn't working as a dismissal attempt, no one is buying it. He struggled with a non-Force sensitive Finn in close combat, he struggled with a girl who has no Jedi training or experience with the Force at all. Both times, consistently, back to back.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.



> I'm not even doing that. I'm stating that the situation is mirrored. Finn got a lucky shot, but still got dominated. Luke got a lucky shot, but still got dominated.



Can you remind me where Luke between Episode V and Episode VI was being matched in close combat by a non-Force User? Can you show me how you feel its fair to compare a Luke with over 3 years of self-training and a month under Yoda is comparable to Finn, a former stormtrooper of such low standing that he used to work as a glorified janitor, struggled with someone like TRAITOR Stormie?

Luke put up a fight and Vader was praising his growing skills and power in the Force. Finn has nothing going for him and that hurts Ren.

I don't see the comparison as valid.



> Kylo was toying with Finn, as he didn't even Paralyse him like he did with Ray, and was bleeding out.



Kylo wasn't toying with him when Finn started pushing him back, and got his hit in. And the pain seemed to play no impact on his performance against Finn at all.



> Showed more impressive precognition abilities previously
> Still took the hit although injured (Not to mention Han talked the blaster up throughout the movie)
> Sliced Finn up regardless, despite clearly being injured by a blaster and bleeding on the snow.
> Rey is more powerful in the force, big whoop.
> Said girl was force amped and was overpowering the girl _before_ said force amp.



He didn't show more impressive precognition then Luke. Luke was able to nail a pair of proton torpedoes down the thermal exhaust port that traveled at near lightspeed velocities without any targeting computers or tracking assistance. Luke was able to use Force Speed and managed to surprise Vader using one of the exhaust cables in the Carbon Freezing chamber, utilize TK to summon his lightsaber to strike down a Wampa, and lifted multiple crafts and before losing concentration lifting up a starfighter that weighs more then several tons.



> *Question to anybody with knowhow, are the new Marvel comics canon? If so, doesn't Luke have any feats there?*



All new material from Del Rey books and Marvel Comics are canon to Disney continuity Star Wars.


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Dec 19, 2015)

Barring stopping one blaster shot for an extended period of time, what has Kylo Ren done for people to think he even stands a chance at beating Luke here?

Is it his temper tantrums? Daddy issues?


----------



## TehChron (Dec 19, 2015)

Black Sabbath II said:


> Barring stopping one blaster shot for an extended period of time, what has Kylo Ren done for people to think he even stands a chance at beating Luke here?
> 
> Is it his temper tantrums? Daddy issues?



Its his Hot Topic Sith cosplay, obviously


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Dec 19, 2015)

Just saw the film


*Spoiler*: __ 



outside of stopping the blaster bolt, the man child with daddy issues was underwhelming.  Any extra material flesh him out better?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 19, 2015)

> Is freezing a blast mid-strike for a few minutes


That's not nearly as impressive as you think it is, I mean once he stops it, it's just him holding it there.


> as impressive as trying and failing to lift an X-Wing?


In a swamp/bog  at that.


----------



## TehChron (Dec 19, 2015)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> That's not nearly as impressive as you think it is, I mean once he stops it, it's just him holding it there.
> 
> In a swamp/bog  at that.



People really underestimate what kind of force it takes to lift something out that kind of environment.

Swamp mud is almost as bad as quicksand.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Dec 19, 2015)

Well after Fang's point on how Kylo was only using his wound to get stronger I am now really unconvinced by all these "he was only injured therefore weaker!" rebuttals I keep seeing from the Darth wannabe fans.

Does anyone have any line from the novelization of the film? I think it should be canon like everything published after the Disney takeover so maybe it could help clear this issue out in case anyone else has any objections left( not like it matters too much).


----------



## The Runner (Dec 19, 2015)

Fang said:


> The visual guide book states he wears a special kind of armor. He's not bleeding intensively after he hits himself a few frozen drops of blood fall to the ground. If he needs to do this refocus himself, it just goes to show his mastery of the Force is very limited.
> 
> Its a demerit in his showings either way.


He still got wounded. Enough that the blood was falling to the floor. The beatings are obviously making the injury worse. I also don't see how it demerits his training with the force. If he has to beat himself after receiving an injury to work off of the pain to goad himself into doing so




> So what? He has a large period of training under both Luke and Snoke. She has no such formal training. He has experience in combat, killing other Force-Users and potential Jedi when he had his meltdown and turn to the dark side. Rey's experience with a staff and fending off low level thugs should not magically translate to her having a chance with matching a trained Force-User in combat with a 1 on 1 duel.


In his defence, there has probably been some time since he actually fought another force user after turning to the dark-side




> He wasn't really bleeding out though.


Blood dripping from his abdomen to the floor. He's not dining or anything like that, but was definitely hindered.





> What I'm saying is he's inconsistent because  both times he's healthy before the attacks go down.


You said that in the OBD, we don't discard low showings for characters. You want to use BOTH, don't you? Do it. It won't make sense.




> I fail to see how that's plot-induced-stupidity in any way. PIS is him not resorting to using the Force to subdue or incapacitate Rey, PIS is however not applicable to him ignoring an enraged wookiee whose his dad's literal life-partner and best friend going apeshit.
> 
> He's just dumb.


So, by what you are saying, it's PIS that he doesn't use the force to fight Ray, but it's not PIS when he doesn't deflect a blast bolt? Despite deflecting those before?





> Yeah and so? This isn't working as a dismissal attempt, no one is buying it. He struggled with a non-Force sensitive Finn in close combat, he struggled with a girl who has no Jedi training or experience with the Force at all. Both times, consistently, back to back.
> 
> Seems pretty straight forward to me.


No one is buying the fact that everybody and their mom in fiction is inconsistent, thus pointing out the obviose inconsistency is irrelevant?
Kylo Ren struggled against a non-force user because not only was he physically hindered but also pretty cocky, and still dominated him nonthe less, while he was dominated by Ray AFTER she amped herself with the force.




> Can you remind me where Luke between Episode V and Episode VI was being matched in close combat by a non-Force User? Can you show me how you feel its fair to compare a Luke with over 3 years of self-training and a month under Yoda is comparable to Finn, a former stormtrooper of such low standing that he used to work as a glorified janitor, struggled with someone like TRAITOR Stormie?
> 
> Luke put up a fight and Vader was praising his growing skills and power in the Force. Finn has nothing going for him and that hurts Ren.
> 
> I don't see the comparison as valid.


That's because it's not a comparison of characters to begin with. It's a comparisons of situations that happened to these characters. I'm calling the situations similar, because both of these dark side users got injured due to a lucky shot, not because Luke or Finn were exceptionally skilled in sword fighting(Considering his only training with a lightsaber was WAY back in ANH, where he just practiced his process and nothing else). So you bringing up their training, or lack of there of, is meaningless.



> Kylo wasn't toying with him when Finn started pushing him back, and got his hit in. And the pain seemed to play no impact on his performance against Finn at all.


What pain are you talking about? The pain in his gut or the pain from Finn's lucky shot? Because Kylo started massacring Finn after the latter was received, to the point where he even swiftly sliced Finn's back. SoI count that as him starting to stop dicking around.




> He didn't show more impressive precognition then Luke. Luke was able to nail a pair of *proton torpedoes down the thermal exhaust port that traveled at near lightspeed velocities* without any targeting computers or tracking assistance. Luke was able to use Force Speed and managed to surprise Vader using one of the exhaust cables in the Carbon Freezing chamber, utilize TK to summon his lightsaber to strike down a Wampa, and lifted multiple crafts and before losing concentration lifting up a starfighter that weighs more then several tons.


Luke bending the proton torpedoes is pretty impressive, especially at the speed they were going




> All new material from Del Rey books and Marvel Comics are canon to Disney continuity Star Wars.


Any notable feats from Luke?


----------



## Iwandesu (Dec 19, 2015)

I thought size didnt matter


----------



## TehChron (Dec 19, 2015)

SuperJoggaCypher the 3rd said:


> He still got wounded. Enough that the blood was falling to the floor. The beatings are obviously making the injury worse. I also don't see how it demerits his training with the force. If he has to beat himself after receiving an injury to work off of the pain to goad himself into doing so
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think what we're all taking from this is that you're trying really hard to make Kylo sound more impressive than he really is

When his kiddie-tier empath skills get casually handwaved by Mind Tricks from any competent force user.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Dec 20, 2015)

Man those are good practical effects.










Can't believe they cut in vader saying NOOO


----------



## Byrd (Dec 20, 2015)

He get fodderized by Luke 

There is no way he is winning...


----------



## Fang (Dec 20, 2015)

SuperJoggaCypher the 3rd said:


> He still got wounded. Enough that the blood was falling to the floor. The beatings are obviously making the injury worse. I also don't see how it demerits his training with the force. If he has to beat himself after receiving an injury to work off of the pain to goad himself into doing so



It shows his training is shit. It shows his competence is laughably bad and his connection to the Force is tenuous at best. Stop this deflective bullshit, he's not impressive. Get over it.



> In his defence, there has probably been some time since he actually fought another force user after turning to the dark-side



Prove it. His literally nick name in the side material is "Jedi Killer". That would indicate the opposite of what you're claiming.



> Blood dripping from his abdomen to the floor. He's not dining or anything like that, but was definitely hindered.



He wasn't hindered enough to fight Finn or Rey.



> You said that in the OBD, we don't discard low showings for characters. You want to use BOTH, don't you? Do it. It won't make sense.



You want to ignore his low end showings and cherry pick his higher end one.
No one else wants to ignore them. 

This is on you, not me. So let's see: he can freeze a blaster bolt from behind but not react to further shot from an enraged wookiee hundreds of feet away who roared before he attacked him in the side of his vision, got cut by a fodder level Finn and lost a duel to Rey.

He loses even with everything accounted for.



> So, by what you are saying, it's PIS that he doesn't use the force to fight Ray, but it's not PIS when he doesn't deflect a blast bolt? Despite deflecting those before?



Work on your reading comprehension: I said its PIS he didn't subdue Finn with the Force, I didn't say its PIS that he got hit by a blaster bolt for being an idiot. Get over it.



> No one is buying the fact that everybody and their mom in fiction is inconsistent, thus pointing out the obviose inconsistency is irrelevant?
> Kylo Ren struggled against a non-force user because not only was he physically hindered but also pretty cocky, and still dominated him nonthe less, while he was dominated by Ray AFTER she amped herself with the force.



No one is buying your arguments here. Ren is inconsistent throughout the entire movie in a single sitting, that isn't something you get to magically hand wave away and ignore.

And He didn't dominate Finn at any point until Finn managed to get a strike on him and that enraged him to actually cut Finn's back to put him done. Rey did not amp herself with the Force, she simply meditated and dominated him after making a connection to the Force when she got Anakin's lightsaber. Just like she reversed his telepathic probe of her mind to read his own memories.

His dueling skills are awful.



> That's because it's not a comparison of characters to begin with. It's a comparisons of situations that happened to these characters. I'm calling the situations similar, because both of these dark side users got injured due to a lucky shot, not because Luke or Finn were exceptionally skilled in sword fighting(Considering his only training with a lightsaber was WAY back in ANH, where he just practiced his process and nothing else). So you bringing up their training, or lack of there of, is meaningless.



No. You are ignoring what's being said and choosing your own bullshit for this:

Luke has 3 years of lightsaber training and self-teaching with the Force between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back.

Finn has *nothing.* No Force power, no Force sensitivity, no combat training in hand to hand combat, nothing going for him. You are not going to get away with this superficial comparison and act as if it's valid. Everything I said is grounded in fact, nothing you have said has proven anything except you ignore what you want to say what you want.

Luke is exceptionally skilled with a lightsaber and still managed to get a hit on Darth Vader.

Finn is not skilled at anything and struggled with a baton-armed stormtrooper only a day earlier in the story on Maz's world yet gets a hit on Ren who has to go all out to put him down.

Get over it.



> What pain are you talking about? The pain in his gut or the pain from Finn's lucky shot? Because Kylo started massacring Finn after the latter was received, to the point where he even swiftly sliced Finn's back. SoI count that as him starting to stop dicking around.



>literally can't even tell what I'm talking about
>with the obvious reference to the side wound

And that doesn't stop Finn from pushing him earlier to get that strike in actually overpowering Ren's lightsaber. He's unimpressive, and the fact someone like Finn could hold his own temporarily with Ren is damning.


> Luke bending the proton torpedoes is pretty impressive, especially at the speed they were going



No fucking shit. And holding his own briefly with a holding back Vader is more impressive then anything Finn showed in TFA.



> Any notable feats from Luke?



Everything TESB Luke showed is more impressive then Ren so he doesn't need anything else and that's ignoring obvious powerscaling from the PT for Luke with Vader.

Ren gets his shit put in.
Get over it.


----------



## Extravlad (Dec 20, 2015)

Kylo Ren is literally shit, ESB Luke could beat 5 Kylo Rens.


----------



## Fang (Dec 20, 2015)

Thank god for greasemonkey and super ignore user-scripts


----------



## OS (Dec 20, 2015)

Darth Nihilus said:


> [YOUTUBE]_RFYoZ7H67A[/YOUTUBE]



thank god for technological advancement


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Dec 20, 2015)

what does technological advancement have to do with fight choreography?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Dec 20, 2015)

The only real feats we got in this movie worth anything were for the tech of the verse to be honest

Superweapon that eats stars

TIE Fighter destroying a Star Destroyer Turbolaser battery in a sparse number of bolts

Think only a few dozen thermal detonators severely damaged that large facility that's visible on the surface of that small moon sized planet (if you take the hologram as is, the thing is probably no more than 1-2 thousand kilometers across

Etc


----------



## OS (Dec 20, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> what does technological advancement have to do with fight choreography?



The lightsaber fights looked way better in TFA. When the sparks flew you could also see the smoke from the heat they made. When you close up on them you can see the flow of energy. Though it showed more on Rens LS.


----------



## Fang (Dec 20, 2015)

OS making a dumb post as usual


----------



## OS (Dec 20, 2015)

Say what you will I'll say how I feel ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

oh and I guess luke wins. (゜▽゜


----------



## Kaaant (Dec 20, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> The only real feats we got in this movie worth anything were for the tech of the verse to be honest
> 
> Superweapon that eats stars
> 
> ...



I thought it was quite cool that TIE fighters seemingly have hyper drives now. Plus are two seater, so there's more parity between them and X wings.


----------



## TehChron (Dec 20, 2015)

Having TIE Fighters be a two-seater defeats the purpose of them being mostly disposable death traps though.


----------



## Kaaant (Dec 20, 2015)

So would installing a hyperdrive. Not exactly cost effective is it?


----------



## $Kakashi$ (Dec 20, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Ren wasn't even able to beat a stormtrooper who's job was being a janitor, or someone who's never used to force before and never used a light saber. 

Though, Rey was a mary sue in the movie.


----------



## TehChron (Dec 20, 2015)

Kaaant said:


> So would installing a hyperdrive. Not exactly cost effective is it?



I know, right?

Might as well just make some more TIE Interceptors

Those things were at least _survivable_


----------



## Rivers (Dec 20, 2015)

*The Force Awakens Novelization:* Obvious spoilers in post.


> _Stepping out onto the walkway, Han moved toward his son. There was no hesitation in his stride or in his voice. “Snoke’s using you for your power, manipulating your abilities. When he’s gotten everything he wants out of you, he’ll crush you. Toss you aside. You know it’s true. If you have half the ability, half the perception that I know you do, you know that I’m telling you the truth. Because unlike him, I have nothing to gain from it.”
> 
> Ren hesitated.
> 
> ...



- Kylo thought killing Han would make him stronger.
- Instead it made him weaker, too distraught to even hear Chewie's roar in outrage.
- After getting hit by Chewie's bowcaster, Kylo struggled to even stand back up.
- Kylo struggles with the bowcaster inflicted injury, to the point he has to grit his teeth and inhale deeply between, first pulling the blaster from Rey's hand and then slamming her back into the tree.
- Kylo offers Rey the chance to surrender.
- Instead there is a_ change in the air_ - and_ in Rey_. Opening her eyes she begins striking at Kylo in a way she did not know she was capable of.
-  Disarmed, Kylo uses Force protect / barrier / Tutaminis in his hands to defend multiple strikes from Rey's Force-enhanced lightsaber strikes.


----------



## TehChron (Dec 20, 2015)

So what you're saying is that rather than being hobbled or distracted after the shot

He really was _just that weak?_


----------



## Kaaant (Dec 20, 2015)

@ Rivers, literally been saying some of this stuff the whole thread. But thanks for putting it to rest.


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 20, 2015)

there's already a novelization?

yeesh


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 20, 2015)

TehChron said:


> So what you're saying is that rather than being hobbled or distracted after the shot
> 
> He really was _just that weak?_



uh

how do you get that from what he said

hobbled:



> - After getting hit by Chewie's bowcaster, Kylo struggled to even stand back up.
> - Kylo struggles with the bowcaster inflicted injury



distracted:



> - Instead it made him weaker, too distraught to even hear Chewie's roar in outrage.


----------



## TehChron (Dec 20, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> uh
> 
> how do you get that from what he said
> 
> ...


The crux of the argument was whether or not the Bowcaster shot had an appreciable impact on his dueling skills

The narration appears to indicate that it was a non factor

Ergo 

Darth Hot Topic is really just that shitty


----------



## Lucaniel (Dec 20, 2015)

TehChron said:


> The crux of the argument was whether or not the Bowcaster shot had an appreciable impact on his dueling skills
> 
> The narration appears to indicate that it was a non factor
> 
> ...



are you kidding?



> He was struggling also, against her newly discovered ability, *as well as the wound inflicted by Chewbacca?s bowcaster*.



do you need the narration to constantly say that he was struggling against injury throughout? it says it once, the writer assumes the reader doesn't have extreme ADHD


----------



## Kaaant (Dec 20, 2015)

How does struggling to stand via injury come as a non-factor? You have an already conflicted Kylo weakened by killing Han, injured by Chewie (fighting from this point on, struggling to stand.), injured again by Fin, and injured numerous times by an amped Rey - that he had no intention of killing

But still survives.

The fact he's able to catch up with them after they flee the facility is a feat in of itself


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 20, 2015)

Honestly, I give Kanan, Ezra or the Inquisitors good odds Kylo Ren and they're a lot weaker than ESB Luke who was, despite his limited training, well on the way to become a Jedi Knight in record time. He could hold his own against Vader very well and managed to injure him, something Rey and Finn couldn't hope to do.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Maybe after getting training from Snoke Kylo's power and ability will increase.


----------



## Rivers (Dec 20, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Honestly, I give Kanan, Ezra or the Inquisitors good odds Kylo Ren and they're a lot weaker than ESB Luke who was, despite his limited training, well on the way to become a Jedi Knight in record time. He could hold his own against Vader very well and managed to injure him, something Rey and Finn couldn't hope to do.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



ESB Luke wasn't injured before he began fighting Vader though...to the point he had difficulty standing or straining to doing Force push / pulls.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 20, 2015)

Rivers said:


> ESB Luke wasn't injured before he began fighting Vader though...to the point he had difficulty standing or doing Force pulls or pushes.


I don't think it would have matter much. Users of the Force can train themselves to ignore pain or quickly accelerate the healing of their wounds. Kylo was injured true, but not to the point of being truly handicapped. An injured Vadara would have batted Rey or Finn away one handed.


----------



## Iwandesu (Dec 20, 2015)

I mean the fuck  
Obi wan was pretty much hosed by blasters in his fight against jango and still was able to get up quite easily 
Ren not taking chewie attack well is just another negative feat against him


----------



## Kaaant (Dec 20, 2015)

You're missing the point. Kylo was already weakened and wasn't expecting the hit. He presumably had no guard up. 

He soldiers on regardless


----------



## Brightsteel (Dec 20, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> I mean the fuck
> Obi wan was pretty much hosed by blasters in his fight against jango and still was able to get up quite easily
> Ren not taking chewie attack well is just another negative feat against him



Er, the fucker never got hit tho....


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Dec 20, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> Er, the fucker never got hit tho....


[YOUTUBE]8tMZdrUx8eM[/YOUTUBE]
0:30-0:42 

Gets blown back by both Jango's rocket and then immediately gets blown away further by his ship's blasters.


----------



## Brightsteel (Dec 20, 2015)

NostalgiaFan said:


> [YOUTUBE]8tMZdrUx8eM[/YOUTUBE]
> 0:30-0:42
> 
> Gets blown back by both Jango's rocket and then immediately gets blown away further by his ship's blasters.



Talking about by the blaster-bolts NostalgiaPony, not the explosions.


----------



## Rivers (Dec 20, 2015)

Kaaant said:


> iwandesu said:
> 
> 
> > I mean the fuck
> ...



Yup. They were never direct hits on Obiwan, and obviously he was in a combat mindset long before being thrown back by the radiating energy of the explosions close to him.

There was no combat mindset at all in Kylo's situation. He was internally conflicted to the point that it explicitly states he was weakened compared to his normal state. Then you have a wookie enraged to the point he cant help but roar a vengeful battle cry (something Kylo couldn't even register with the turmoil inside weakening him), and then release that rage with a direct killshot to Kylo's body!

Is it not obvious what composer and force reserves Kylo has is first going to sustaining his body to stand and move forward? Evident by the blood continually spilling down his side before any of the battle starts. 

Again: *The Force Awakens Novelization*


> _Slowly she shook her head. ?The Force?? That was what this was about? Instead of moving to defend herself, Rey closed her eyes. Ren hesitated, confused by her actions. *A long moment passed, in which Ren sensed a change in the air, a change in her. Then she opened her eyes and attacked, viciously, in a way she didn?t know she was capable of, striking again and again as Ren was slowly driven back. The flaring energy from the interacting lightsabers was more pronounced than ever in the flurry of her attack. * And?Ren went down.
> 
> He was up again in an instant, but not in time to fully deflect a following blow from Rey?s weapon. He succeeded in blocking it, but he still took the full force of the strike against the haft of his own lightsaber. *The weapon went flying into the snow. Unarmed, he raised a hand and utilized the Force to fend off one slashing blow after another, until finally her fury penetrated his remaining defenses.* Taking a glancing blow to the head and chest, he went down, a prominent burn slashed across his face. Weakened, he reached out toward his lightsaber, trying to draw it to him._



It mentions he is capable of * defending against force-raged lighstaber strikes with his hand / tutaminis with whatever force he had left. *I actually find that more impressive than Obiwan's use of the force to get up from a close range blast of Jango's rocket / ship fire . Wouldn't you?


----------



## Kaaant (Dec 20, 2015)

Obi Wan used a force barrier and Kylo didn't, so why the comparison?


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Dec 20, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> Talking about by the blaster-bolts NostalgiaPony, not the explosions.



I'm pretty sure he was referring to the blasters from the ship blindsteel.
And they looked to be so close they touched his legs so I still don't see how it was just the explosions.


----------



## Brightsteel (Dec 20, 2015)

NostalgiaFan said:


> I'm pretty sure he was referring to the blasters from the ship blindsteel.
> And they looked to be so close they touched his legs so I still don't see how it was just the explosions.



He wasn't tho. 

Are you sure?


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Dec 20, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> He wasn't tho.
> 
> Are you sure?


About what iwen was referring to or Obi-Wan getting hit?


----------



## Extravlad (Dec 20, 2015)

> Kylo thought killing Han would make him stronger.
> - Instead it made him weaker, too distraught to even hear Chewie's roar in outrage.
> - After getting hit by Chewie's bowcaster, Kylo struggled to even stand back up.
> - Kylo struggles with the bowcaster inflicted injury, to the point he has to grit his teeth and inhale deeply between, first pulling the blaster from Rey's hand and then slamming her back into the tree.
> ...


None of those disadvantages are enough of an excuse against the fact that a Stormtrooper who's not even force sensitive managed to injure him and that Rey (who hasn't received any training as far we know) could not only resist him in the force but even best him eventually with what 1 day of practice by herself.

Kylo Ren sucks, he's by far the weakest antagonist we've ever had in a Star Wars movie.


----------



## Brightsteel (Dec 20, 2015)

NostalgiaFan said:


> About what iwen was referring to or Obi-Wan getting hit?



Oafy getting hit by the blaser-bolts. Or as Iwan said it, "hosed". 

Come on Pony, keep up.



> Kylo Ren sucks, he's by far the weakest antagonist we've ever had in a Star Wars movie.



Tarkin was an antagonist. So were the Trade Confederation fuckers.


----------



## Fang (Dec 20, 2015)

Rivers said:


> *The Force Awakens Novelization:* Obvious spoilers in post.
> 
> 
> - Kylo thought killing Han would make him stronger.
> ...



If you want to use the novel for The Force Awakens that's fine but Luke still has him kind of beat with TESB's novelization:

- danger sense
- scrying the future
- sensing Han, Leia, Chewie, and the others in danger in the Bespin system on Cloud City from a considerable distance in the Dagobah



- Force enhanced reflexes to deal with blaster bolts from training seeker droids in Yoda's enclosed hovel and perfectly deflect them
- progressing in his training so quickly that even Yoda is impressed by his skills
- Force agility/Force speed
- using TK to lift multipe objects and even summon his lightsaber back to him when Force Jumping out of the carbon freezing chamber
- testament to both Luke and Vader that even when Luke was going in round two with Vader, just beating at Vader's guard was numbing his legs
- when Vader starts to hurl "massive" pieces of machinery at Luke, Luke was using his own TK to counter and deflect some of it until Vader increased the tempo of his attacks and overwhelmed Luke with his barrage
- Vader did this from every angle and direction until it exhausted Luke


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Dec 20, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> Oafy getting hit by the blaser-bolts. Or as Iwan said it, "hosed".


I slowed down the video to get a better look and the first shot from the Slave 1 looks like it lands right into where Obi's left leg is but since the actual point where the shot hit is off screen it's kind of hard to be sure. Has this feat been looked into before? There was that one feat that was looked into before where Mace blocks a blaster from artillery so was there anything else done for this? Cause I feel it should if it doesn't.



Brightsteel said:


> Tarkin was an antagonist. So were the Trade Confederation fuckers.


>Tarkin
>as weak an antagonist as the fucking Trade Federation

Blindy why are you being terrible?


----------



## Brightsteel (Dec 20, 2015)

> I slowed down the video to get a better look and the first shot from the Slave 1 looks like it lands right into where Obi's left leg is but since the actual point where the shot hit is off screen it's kind of hard to be sure. Has this feat been looked into before? There was that one feat that was looked into before where Mace blocks a blaster from artillery so was there anything else done for this? Cause I feel it should if it doesn't.



I don't think so, could probably be worth something tho, like you said. Anyways, why is Ren such a pussy? Windu managed to engage in an intense lightsaber with an amped master duelist who had been training their whole life and were renowned for their sword skills, whilst more hindered emotionally, having various minor injuries and fractures, and a lightsaber wound through his gut. 



> >Tarkin
> >as weak an antagonist as the fucking Trade Federation
> 
> Blindy why are you being terrible?



He asked for weak antagonists, so I listed some.


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## Fang (Dec 20, 2015)

Tarkin isn't a fighter.


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## NostalgiaFan (Dec 20, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> I don't think so, could probably be worth something tho, like you said.


I could post it int the meta dome to see if others could help out in coming to an conclusion.




Brightsteel said:


> He asked for weak antagonists, so I listed some.


Oh wait you meant weak as in power, not as an actual villain? I take that back. I thought you were referring to him as a poor character.


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## Brightsteel (Dec 20, 2015)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Oh wait you meant weak as in power, not as an actual villain? I take that back. I thought you were referring to him as a poor character.



Nah Tarkin was an amazing character, easily within my top five for Star Wars villains.


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## OS (Dec 20, 2015)

Kaaant said:


> How does struggling to stand via injury come as a non-factor? You have an already conflicted Kylo weakened by killing Han, injured by Chewie (fighting from this point on, struggling to stand.), injured again by Fin, and injured numerous times by an amped Rey - that he had no intention of killing
> 
> But still survives.
> 
> The fact he's able to catch up with them after they flee the facility is a feat in of itself



how the fuck did he catch them too.


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## Mider T (Dec 20, 2015)

Tarkin was boring.


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## Fang (Dec 20, 2015)

>Mider T post


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## Yami Munesanzun (Dec 20, 2015)

OS said:


> how the fuck did he catch them too.



Get ahead of them, you mean.


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## Iwandesu (Dec 20, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> He wasn't tho.
> 
> Are you sure?


yes i was...
sorry for not knowing the cannon blasts name if there is one


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## Mider T (Dec 20, 2015)

Fang said:


> >Mider T post



Might as well just rate the thread 5 stars right now.


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## Fang (Dec 20, 2015)

Like pottery


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Dec 21, 2015)

If we're not done with this thread can we stay on topic?


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## Galo de Lion (Dec 21, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Kylo himself says that he's (currently) much weaker than Darth Vader, the ESB Luke was too. Based on the rest of this thread though, Luke seems to have it.


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## Extravlad (Dec 21, 2015)

ANH Luke vs Kylo Ren would be a better fight.


*Spoiler*: __ 



After all Kylo is used to loses to people who have never held a lightsaber ever before and haven't been trained to the force by anyone


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## trance (Dec 21, 2015)

TTGL said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Kylo himself says that he's (currently) much weaker than Darth Vader, the ESB Luke was too. Based on the rest of this thread though, Luke seems to have it.



TESB Luke wasn't _that_ much weaker than Vader.


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## Wan (Dec 21, 2015)

I agree with what's been said here about 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Kylo not being at his best from both the wound and his emotional state.  It was my impression walking out of the theater that the focus that Kylo wanted from killing Han didn't _actually_ come to him, not yet at least while he's still in shock over what he did, and that the wound significantly hampered his ability to fight.  I can't see how people can argue that Ren was actually Dark Side amped from all of that, since that just makes him losing to Rey all the more unbelievable.  Good to see that the novelization confirmed those impressions.

As he is now, I think Luke would definitely have a shot at beating him.   I don't think it would be easy for Luke, but doable.  I definitely think Ren is going to improve by the next movie.  He's more set up as a rival who will grow at a similar pace as Rey, rather than how Vader was a nemesis for Luke that needed to be overcome.




Just my 2 cents.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2015)

>a month of training with Yoda gives Luke enough command of the Force to deflect and counter of the machinery and objects Vader is assailing Luke with from all directions for a short while before being overcome

TESB Luke would utterly wreck Ren. No effort.


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## Wan (Dec 21, 2015)

I can't speak for the novels, I'm just speaking from what I saw in the movies.  Though I might end up reading the TFA novel.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2015)

I don't care either way

Someone used the TFA novelization, so I used the TESB one.


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## trance (Dec 21, 2015)

Unlike Ren, Vader was a proper Sith Lord and Luke could slug it out with him for a respectable length of time.


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## Brightsteel (Dec 21, 2015)

> I don't care either way
> 
> Someone used the TFA novelization, so I used the TESB one.



Who do you think would be a good fight for Kylo? A fucker like Kanan, or someone around his level?


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## Lucaniel (Dec 21, 2015)

when did people universally start using "fucker" to mean "person"

are you all pretending to be chaostheory


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## Brightsteel (Dec 21, 2015)

More or less.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2015)

If he wanted to be like ChaosTheory then he'd be using "chuckles" more often


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 21, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> when did people universally start using "fucker" to mean "person"
> 
> are you all pretending to be chaostheory



What's it to ya chuckles?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 21, 2015)

fang


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## Lucaniel (Dec 21, 2015)

Nighty said:


> What's it to ya chuckles?


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## Kaaant (Dec 21, 2015)

Cudos to chaos for coming up with words


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## Brooks (Dec 21, 2015)

Any worthy Jedi shit stomps Kylo Ren after his poor against performance against Rey, but killing his father could also be the reason for his poor performance.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Dec 22, 2015)

Brooks said:


> Any worthy Jedi shit stomps Kylo Ren after his poor against performance against Rey, but killing his father could also be the reason for his poor performance.


Not to mention the Bowcaster bolt too, that probably hampered him too.


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## FrozenFeathers (Dec 22, 2015)

How did Star Wars get so popular?
I mean lazor swords arr so kewl?

I never got the hype.

PS I saw the prequels first.


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## trance (Dec 22, 2015)

FrozenFeathers said:


> How did Star Wars get so popular?



George Lucas used Jedi mind trick to get people to see his movies.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Dec 22, 2015)

FrozenFeathers said:


> How did Star Wars get so popular?
> I mean lazor swords arr so kewl?
> 
> I never got the hype.
> ...



mistake tbh

even on a narrative level the movies are written from the perspective of watching 4-6 -> 1-3 -> 7-9


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## Fang (Dec 22, 2015)

The quest for more money


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Dec 22, 2015)

Well seems this thread can't stay on topic anymore


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