# Itachi Vs Pain



## Trojan (Dec 18, 2013)

This is "Hokage" itachi. 

Starting Distance: itachi at his office, Pain enters the village as in the manga 
Location: Konoha
Intel: what Konoha knew at that time about Pain
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: none 

So, this is Itachi in Tsunade's place, assume Pain have already fought the shinbis and defeated 
them, and the last one left is itachi to fight for the village. There is no Naruto to save the day. 

Note: This is the itachi in the manga, no fanfictions please. 

Can itachi be a better Hokage than Tsunade?


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## Mercurial (Dec 18, 2013)

Enjoy your hating, no, he can't in this situation.

But he is 100000000000 more skilled and better than Tsunade as a ninja and as a fighter.


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## Trojan (Dec 18, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> Enjoy your hating, no, he can't in this situation.
> 
> But he is 100000000000 more skilled and better than Tsunade as a ninja and as a fighter.



- 
- Whatever makes you happy.


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## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Dec 18, 2013)

He stronger than Tsunade but still cant defeat Pain. Tsunade saved at least half the village with her healing powers.


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## Bonly (Dec 18, 2013)

Just like Tsunade would've failed in this situation so does Itachi. Itachi may be strong but Pain is too much for Itachi overall although I guess Tsunade would've been better in this situation since she's a medical ninja so she'd be able to save more people with Katsuyu as opposed to Itachi who couldn't do the same.


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## ARGUS (Dec 18, 2013)

Itachi >> Tsunade 
However itachi doesn't have the kyuubi to save his ass 
He is completely outclassed by Pein 
There is a reason why Pein was the leader of the akatsuki


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2013)

Is Pain scattered around like in the manga ? If so, it is a very easy win for Itachi since you've given almost full knowledge to him.

If not, it can go eitherway, If Konoha is intact and if Itachi resorts to guerilla tactics I assume he can take it.

It also depends on how Pain plays this. If he goes offensive he loses. If he plays defensive to outlast Itachi he might take it.



Bonly said:


> Just like Tsunade would've failed in this situation so does Itachi. Itachi may be strong but Pain is too much for Itachi overall although I guess Tsunade would've been better in this situation since she's a medical ninja so she'd be able to save more people with Katsuyu as opposed to Itachi who couldn't do the same.



Pain needs to deactivate 5 bodies to be able to use CT. I also assume that the deactivated bodies should be outside its radious to stay intact.

It is a risky game against Itachi who can hit him from a range, unlike Tsunade who could do nothing but watch him execute his move.


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## Trojan (Dec 18, 2013)

> Is Pain scattered around like in the manga ?



Yes, but the Animal path can summon all of them if necessary.


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## fior fior (Dec 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Is Pain scattered around like in the manga ? If so, it is a very easy win for Itachi since you've given almost full knowledge to him.
> 
> If not, it can go eitherway, If Konoha is intact and if Itachi resorts to guerilla tactics I assume he can take it.
> 
> ...



This is the 'Itachi in Tsunade's place', i.e. sick Itachi. He gets murdered.

Low-strength ST was wiping out opponents like Kakashi and Choza at close range, with the stronger application breaking boss summons' bones and sending them flying for miles.

If Itachi comes anywhere close (close-med range) he's dead. At any range further than that he's pretty powerless: Amaterasu uses up his reserves too quickly and can either be tanked by summons (which are in plentiful supply) or absorbed by Preta.

Susano'o is pretty much suicide for Itachi because inside of it he can walk 2mph tops, which gives Pain the time to make distance and use CT. Alternatively, Pain could just wait it out until Itachi drops dead from exhaustion.

This is an extremely one-sided fight. I have no idea why you're even considering that Itachi might have a chance to win.


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## InfiniteBreak (Dec 18, 2013)

Itachi loses, even with intel. Plain and simple. There's really no need to get into detail here.


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## Vice (Dec 18, 2013)

No amount of fanwank bullshit could allow Itachi to beat someone who's capable of soloing an entire village.

Fuck, Deva Path could take him by himself.


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## Kai (Dec 18, 2013)

Nagato > Itachi >/= Pain

And I'm out.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 18, 2013)

So if Pain wiped out the village, does that mean he used the big Shinra Tensei and lost Tendou's powers for a while? If so, then Itachi cleans house with only moderate difficulty using Susano'o. If Tendou still has powers accessible, then Itachi may need to use Izanami.

Especially if there's no Naruto coming to save the day, Kishi will have Itachi do it.



Elia said:


> Can itachi be a better Hokage than Tsunade?



If by that you mean not having explosive, angry outbursts, not destroying property, not assaulting citizens, not being an alcoholic, and not running out on gambling debts...then yes.



Vice said:


> No amount of fanwank bullshit could allow Itachi to beat someone who's capable of soloing an entire village.













I want you to know...I enjoyed doing this. 



> Fuck, Deva Path could take him by himself.



No. No it could not.

Itachi uses Goukakyuu. Tendou disperses with Shinra Tensei. Itachi falls out of the sky and shanks the fucker like some ol' Assassin's Creed bullshit.


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## Trojan (Dec 18, 2013)

Vice said:


> No amount of fanwank bullshit could allow Itachi to beat someone who's capable of soloing an entire village.
> 
> Fuck, Deva Path could take him by himself.





Vice said:


> lol            .



So, you found the amount of fanboysim you seek. Congratulation. 

I wonder why those who think itachi can win and save the village do not share their opinions. @.@

@Nikushimi

you destroyed the page!!!
Please put those photos in a spoiler tag!


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2013)

fior fior said:


> This is the 'Itachi in Tsunade's place', i.e. sick Itachi. He gets murdered.


The op doesn't state he is sick. Besides, If it comes down to a battle of attrition, Itachi loses eitherway. 



> Low-strength ST was wiping out opponents like Kakashi and Choza at close range, with the stronger application breaking boss summons' bones and sending them flying for miles.


Kakashi took like 3 of those. And he doesn't have Susano'o to defend himself with.
Itachi casually tanks it with Susano'o, he can even replicate what Kn6 did, anchor himself to the ground and reflect it back on Deva realm.



> If Itachi comes anywhere close (close-med range) he's dead.


How ? Why ?
Pain doesn't have any long range techniques other than Asura's missles, which Chouji could outrun for a while. Not that they'll have any impact on Susano'o.



> At any range further than that he's pretty powerless: Amaterasu uses up his reserves too quickly and can either be tanked by summons (which are in plentiful supply) or absorbed by Preta.



Itachi has full knowledge here, he won't hit Preta with Amaterasu. 
And no, those summons aren't tanking anything. Itachi casually OHKO'D 2 of them in a matter of seconds in the manga.



> Susano'o is pretty much suicide for Itachi because inside of it he can walk 2mph tops,


Which is simply wrong. 

Itachi falls out of the sky and shanks the fucker like some ol' Assassin's Creed bullshit

That doesn't seem slow to me.



> which gives Pain the time to make distance and use CT.



Itach hits him with Magatama or Amaterasu if he turns his back and starts running.
Or Itachi deactivates Susano'o and closes in if thats even necessary.



> Alternatively, Pain could just wait it out until Itachi drops dead from exhaustion.


If Itachi doesn't wipe him off the face of the earth during that time, sure.



> This is an extremely one-sided fight. I have no idea why you're even considering that Itachi might have a chance to win.


I think you absolutely have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
Anyone who thinks Pain vs Itachi is one sided either hates either one of the chracters or doesn't read the manga.

In your case though, I think it is both 



Vice said:


> lol            .



there there


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## Ghost (Dec 18, 2013)

Itachi tanks the CST with Susano'o, beats weakened Pain and TNJs Nagato into using Rinne Tensei to revive the dead villagers.


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## Turrin (Dec 18, 2013)

I don't get the scenario, if all of the Shinobi are dead how is Itachi suppose to do better than Tsunade. That is an auto-failure lol. If you just mean how would Itachi do fighting Pain directly, than assuming this is Sick Itachi, he looses pretty decisively and I don't expect him to do much better than Tsunade would against Pain Rikudo, as both would ultimately loose and any damage done to Pain would simply be rendered moot by Nagato easily replacing any lost bodies. 



Kai said:


> Nagato > Itachi >/= Pain
> 
> And I'm out.


In no universe is Itachi > Pain.


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## Vice (Dec 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I want you to know...I enjoyed doing this.



Enjoyed wanking to out of context bullshit. I'm sure you did.

Pain was soloing the village before he leveled it.



> No. No it could not.
> 
> Itachi uses Goukakyuu. Tendou disperses with Shinra Tensei. Itachi falls out of the sky and shanks the fucker like some ol' Assassin's Creed bullshit.



Nice fanfiction.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 18, 2013)

Vice said:


> Enjoyed wanking to out of context bullshit. I'm sure you did.
> 
> Pain was soloing the village before he leveled it.



And Deidara can nuke a village in one shot, too.
And Orochimaru has the power to destroy a country by himself.
So does Sasori, actually.

Itachi is on a completely different level from these guys. "Out of context" my ass; we all know why you're here, Vice. 



> Nice fanfiction.



Thanks. But I can't take all the credit; I got all my ideas from Kishimoto.


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## Trojan (Dec 18, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I don't get the scenario, if all of the Shinobi are dead how is Itachi suppose to do better than Tsunade. That is an auto-failure lol. If you just mean how would Itachi do fighting Pain directly, than assuming this is Sick Itachi, he looses pretty decisively and I don't expect him to do much better than Tsunade would against Pain Rikudo, as both would ultimately loose and any damage done to Pain would simply be rendered moot by Nagato easily replacing any lost bodies.
> 
> 
> In no universe is Itachi > Pain.



I did not say dead though, but those who were defeated are defeated her as well like kakashi
Choji's dad ...etc, the civilians on the other hand their destiny is whether they have a good or shitty Hokage. lol 

The buildings and those structures are there as well, unless itachi failed to protect those!  
So basically this is

itachi vs Pain before he used the CST and wiped out Konoha, if that makes sense to you.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 18, 2013)

So Pain has NOT used CST, yet he has still gone around and systematically defeated every shinobi in the village?

Nagato would probably be very tired after doing that, so Itachi just bitzes the Pain Rikudou with throwing weapons and Susano'o before he can catch his breath.


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## Trojan (Dec 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> So Pain has NOT used CST, yet he has still gone around and systematically defeated every shinobi in the village?
> 
> Nagato would probably be very tired after doing that, so Itachi just bitzes the Pain Rikudou with throwing weapons and Susano'o before he can catch his breath.



- Of course not, otherwise I would not have asked you if he can save the village. 

- But Pain with all of that cost a lot of terrible to SM Naruto, who's even stronger than itachi! 
As for the Susanoo, why can't he use BT to pull itachi out of it?


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## Itachі (Dec 18, 2013)

Would Izanami work on one of the Pain paths?


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## Nikushimi (Dec 18, 2013)

Elia said:


> - Of course not, otherwise I would not have asked you if he can save the village.
> 
> - But Pain with all of that cost a lot of terrible to SM Naruto, who's even stronger than itachi!



SM Naruto was not stronger than Itachi during Pain's invasion.



> As for the Susanoo, why can't he use BT to pull itachi out of it?



He would have to hold Susano'o down first so that it doesn't get pulled with Itachi, but his summons are the only things strong enough to do that and they lack the speed to avoid getting cut to pieces.



Itachi☆Uchiha said:


> Would Izanami work on one of the Pain paths?



It would work on Nagato, since he is the one feeling the sensations of operating the Rikudou.


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## Vice (Dec 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> And Deidara can nuke a village in one shot, too.



Pain was soloing before nuking it. He only nuked it out of spite from Tsunade running her mouth.



> And Orochimaru has the power to destroy a country by himself.



Orochimaru has an army.



> So does Sasori, actually.



Hundreds of puppets. Sand village is pretty weak too.



> Itachi is on a completely different level from these guys.



No he isn't.

Itachi also has shit stamina and a 1-on-1 arsenal. He isn't capable of leveling a village except in the minds of his fans.



> "Out of context" my ass



Completely out of context.



> we all know why you're here, Vice.



Yeah, let's just pretend that you and the half dozen or so other Itachi-tards who always suck off Itachi in the battledome don't have an agenda. The bias is all clearly one-sided.



> Thanks. But I can't take all the credit; I got all my ideas from Kishimoto.



Sure. Except your version is all twisted, mangled and completely out of context, but sure.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2013)

Tsukiyomi is useless as Pain can heal from it.
Amaterasu is beaten by 2 paths.
Susanoo ain't shit. Deva can pull Itachi out of it like Gaara did but better.
Itachi would have problems with animal realm alone.

Pain destroys 10/10 no dif.


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## LostSelf (Dec 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It would work on Nagato, since he is the one feeling the sensations of operating the Rikudou.



Nagato doesn't feel the sensations of operating the Pains. He was not captured in Jiraiya's genjutsu (old news), Izanami wouldn't do better. Itachi would catch the path in said jutsu, but the other paths will be functioning.

OT: In my mind, Pain has always been stronger than Itachi. As Itachi doesn't have a counter to CT/CST. And stamina wise, he won't beat Pain fast enough without getting tired.

Also, something overlooked as always is that Deva can take down Itachi with one Shinra Tensei if he desires. Itachi has no counter to that.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 18, 2013)

Vice said:


> Pain was soloing before nuking it. He only nuked it out of spite from Tsunade running her mouth.



You act like there's a difference when both paths lead to the same end result.



> Orochimaru has an army.



We have an Itachi.



> Hundreds of puppets. Sand village is pretty weak too.



Wut. Sasori did not beat Suna; he beat some unnamed fodder country.

But that's beside the point.



> No he isn't.



Yes he is. Itachi outclasses Deidara, Sasori, and Orochimaru completely; in Orochimaru's case, this was emphasized for plot reasons.



> Itachi also has shit stamina and a 1-on-1 arsenal. He isn't capable of leveling a village except in the minds of his fans.



Itachi's MS finishers are for one-on-one against worthy adversaries.

He doesn't need MS to take on armies of fodder. But again, you're missing the point; this isn't about Itachi's ability to solo a village--you said he would never be able to beat someone who could, which is demonstrably false.



> Completely out of context.



Not out of context at all; those guys all have the power to defeat villages and countries and Itachi can beat them decisively, which you stated that no amount of fanwank bullshit would allow.

Ergo, you were mistaken.



> Yeah, let's just pretend that you and the half dozen or so other Itachi-tards who always suck off Itachi in the battledome don't have an agenda. The bias is all clearly one-sided.



As if that justifies or even mitigates the shame of your own conduct.



> Sure. Except your version is all twisted, mangled and completely out of context, but sure.



Feel free to point out where.

Because Itachi using Goukakyuu is characteristic of him, Pain defending with Shinra Tensei is characteristic of him, and Itachi dropping out of the sky to blindside an opponent has already happened (and Pain lacks chakra/emotion sensing).


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## Nikushimi (Dec 18, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Tsukiyomi is useless as Pain can heal from it.
> Amaterasu is beaten by 2 paths.
> Susanoo ain't shit. Deva can pull Itachi out of it like Gaara did but better.
> Itachi would have problems with animal realm alone.
> ...



Ah, we've lost IchLiebe. 

Or did the Will of Itachi simply pass on to Munboy? 

Something weird is going on here...



LostSelf said:


> Nagato doesn't feel the sensations of operating the Pains.



That's not what I meant.



> He was not captured in Jiraiya's genjutsu (old news), Izanami wouldn't do better.



Gamarinshou affects through the senses. Izanami explicitly bypasses the senses and uses the target's own physical memory of an experience.



> Itachi would catch the path in said jutsu, but the other paths will be functioning.



Not if we go by the mechanics of Izanami, which purportedly influence an enemy using their own mental recall of a tactile event.



> Also, something overlooked as always is that Deva can take down Itachi with one Shinra Tensei if he desires. Itachi has no counter to that.



Susano'o.


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## Trojan (Dec 18, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Tsukiyomi is useless as Pain can heal from it.
> *Amaterasu is beaten by 2 paths.*
> Susanoo ain't shit. Deva can pull Itachi out of it like Gaara did but better.
> Itachi would have problems with animal realm alone.
> ...



@bold. 

All the paths can beat Amaterasu by their black rods.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2013)

Elia said:


> @bold.
> 
> All the paths can beat Amaterasu by their black rods.



Explain how.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 18, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> You never had me .
> 
> Don't worry, Munboy will be set straight.



Are you implying that Itachisexuality is a _choice?_ 

EDIT: Nice location, btw. 



Elia said:


> @bold.
> 
> All the paths can beat Amaterasu by their black rods.



how


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## Vice (Dec 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> You act like there's a difference when both paths lead to the same end result.



Yes, taking out a village with your bare hands without the use of a nuke is far more impressive.



> We have an Itachi.



Who can't even overcome rigged shuriken.

Anyway, does this response even mean anything?



> Wut. Sasori did not beat Suna; he beat some unnamed fodder country.
> 
> But that's beside the point.



*shrug*

Point still stands, he might as well have an army himself.



> Yes he is.



No, he isn't.



> Itachi outclasses Deidara, Sasori, and Orochimaru completely



He's stronger than them, but this "on a different level" stuff is bullshit.

At any rate, he still can't replicate their village-soloing feats so it's a moot point anyway.



> in Orochimaru's case, this was emphasized for plot reasons.



There's context behind this that you choose to ignore.



> Itachi's MS finishers are for one-on-one against worthy adversaries.
> 
> He doesn't need MS to take on armies of fodder.



He's incapable of taking on armies of fodder because of his shit-tier stamina.



> Not out of context at all; those guys all have the power to defeat villages and countries



Because of their specific abilities. 



> and Itachi can beat them decisively



He beat Deidara because he chose to, conveniently, use genjutsu against him.

He never fought Sasori.

Orochimaru was weakened.

And "beating" them one-on-one speaks nothing of Itachi's ability to solo a village or not.



> which you stated that no amount of fanwank bullshit would allow.



I was referring to Pain.



> Ergo, you were mistaken.



Nope.



> As if that justifies or even mitigates the shame of your own conduct.



lol. Not sucking off Itachi is now something that warrants shame?



> Feel free to point out where.



Using Itachi's feats of outperforming Deidara in fucking genjutsu means nothing against a guy who can solo a village, and you know this.



> Because Itachi using Goukakyuu is characteristic of him, Pain defending with Shinra Tensei is characteristic of him, and Itachi dropping out of the sky to blindside an opponent has already happened (and Pain lacks chakra/emotion sensing).



So like always, Itachi's opponents just stand there and do nothing while Itachi gets all the offense in.

Like I said, I've read this fanfiction before, still not original.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Are you implying that Itachisexuality is a _choice?_
> 
> EDIT: Nice location, btw.



I brought Munboy to your side, I can take him out of it.

Thank you for reminding me.


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## LostSelf (Dec 18, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> That's not what I meant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, except that Gama Rinshou captures the mind as well, not only the senses, as it says it paralyzes your body and mind. Nagato did not appear in that ilusion if the technique goes to the user's head. It's not because the paths, i thought it was because Nagato doesn't feel what the paths gets to feel even with genjutsu. Dead paths with no mind should not appear there either, Kishi probably ignored that genjutsu might only affect the target wich is intended to, but that's just me.

They are separate being even if one is controlling them. 

Izanami might not get to Nagato either, or can, as well, but Nagato having his attention and mind divided in six different bodies, his mind is not in one place, therefore the path he captures should be in the loop, but Nagato is in six different places.

But if it happens like you say, Itachi should make it happen exactly the same, to make Nagato memorize said action, his paths should be defeated in order to have just one, or make his every path make the same moves in order.



> Susano'o.



He would need to have it activated beforehand, or tell when Nagato is gonna use it. With the speed of the attack and it's instant activation without handseals will make it near impossible to predict it, let alone protecting against it once Nagato fires it.


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## Trojan (Dec 18, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Explain how.





Nikushimi said:


> Are you implying that Itachisexuality is a _choice?_
> 
> EDIT: Nice location, btw.
> 
> ...



Itachi falls out of the sky and shanks the fucker like some ol' Assassin's Creed bullshit


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2013)

Vice said:


> Yes, taking out a village with your bare hands without the use of a nuke is far more impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You said Itachi can never hope to defeat someone who solos villages by himself.

Niku never said Itachi can solo a village, he showed you that he can solo people who solo villages, thus proving you wrong.
Itachi's capability of soloing an entire village is completely irrelevant here.


Stop strawmaning Vaysu-chan.



Elia said:


> Itachi falls out of the sky and shanks the fucker like some ol' Assassin's Creed bullshit



Thats enton bro, not Amaterasu.

Amaterasu appears on target, and moves with the users gaze, which makes it entirely different than enton in regards to execution. Pain doesn't have the speed to intercept that with a black rod.


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## Vice (Dec 18, 2013)

You both knew what I meant, stop playing stupid.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2013)

Elia said:


> [1]



I thought it block it, but after looking a couple pages afterwards the flames do seem to be gone. Nice, Pain stomps even harder.


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## Vice (Dec 18, 2013)

Enton is just the manipulation of the flames, it's still Amaterasu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2013)

Vice said:


> You both knew what I meant, stop playing stupid.



I think you had no idea what you meant 




LostSelf said:


> He would need to have it activated beforehand, or tell when Nagato is gonna use it. With the speed of the attack and it's instant activation without handseals will make it near impossible to predict it, let alone protecting against it once Nagato fires it.



Shinra tensei is a push. It doesn't deal damage upon contact instantly. Itachi can activate Susano'o the moment he feels it.
Early stages of Susano'o activate near instantly, so he'll be fine everytime.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 18, 2013)

Pain>Itachi. Never comin' back.


I can literally feel the hypocrisy coming out of this thread.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2013)

saikyou said:


> the stick fucking flew somewhere.



The flames are no where to be seen aka gone.


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## LostSelf (Dec 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Shinra tensei is a push. It doesn't deal damage upon contact instantly. Itachi can activate Susano'o the moment he feels it.
> Early stages of Susano'o activate near instantly, so he'll be fine everytime.



Shinra Tensei is not only a push. It's a hit. It completely defeated Choji's dad and Kakashi, and completely defeated the Boss summons and Shima, who's supposed to be a sage mode user and have a lot of durability.

Itachi needs to react to said hit beforehand. He can activate Susano'o and avoid the clash. But that's the painless part of the attack.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Pain>Itachi. Never comin' back.
> 
> 
> I can literally feel the hypocrisy coming out of this thread.



But you know right... You are probably wrong. 

edit :



LostSelf said:


> Shinra Tensei is not only a push. It's a hit. It completely defeated Choji's dad and Kakashi, and completely defeated the Boss summons and Shima, who's supposed to be a sage mode user and have a lot of durability.
> 
> Itachi needs to react to said hit before hand. He can activate Susano'o and avoid the clash. But that's the painless part of the attack.



It is a push. A strong one.
Kakashi expressed it clearly, that it is not a shockwave but more like a push.
So you don't recieve all that damage the moment you re touched by it.

Shima is shit. Most people endured ST better than her, without SM.


And like I said no, he doesn't need to.
He can activate Susano'O @ the exact moment he is hit. 

That is with the assumption that Sharingan can't detect the chakra build up or any shift in the chakra system of the opponent. Not that this is necessary here.


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## LostSelf (Dec 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is a push. A strong one.
> Kakashi expressed it clearly, that it is not a shockwave but more like a push.
> So you don't recieve all that damage the moment you re touched by it.



Let's ignore if it's a push or a hit. Said attack can shatter bones. You receive the damage the moment you are pushed/hit by it. The clash doesn't break your bones, it's the hit itself. So you suffer damage. Also, you're hit to be pushed. That's why people scream of pain while hit.



> Shima is shit. Most people endured ST better than her, without SM.



Because it depends of the force of the attack. Deva finished Kakashi and co. The moment he wanted. The Boss summons are more durable than them (and Itachi) and were completely screwed. No living being save the Raikages and some other exceptions would take an attack like the one used on the boss summons and live.



> And like I said no, he doesn't need to.
> He can activate Susano'O @ the exact moment he is hit.



And how will this help? He will suffer damage either way.



> That is with the assumption that Sharingan can't detect the chakra build up or any shift in the chakra system of the opponent. Not that this is necessary here.



Sensors like SM/RM Naruto failed to do so, and the sensors are the only ones with feats of anticipating an attack because of the build of chakra. Sharingan has never shown that.


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## Ersa (Dec 18, 2013)

Nagato > Edo Itachi > Pain > Sick Itachi.

This match-up has been done to death


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## Sadgoob (Dec 18, 2013)

Here's how I see it:

*Easily Blitzing Bee Tier*

Healthy Itachi ≥ Healthy Nagato 

*Probably Blitzing Bee Tier*

Edo Nagato (rejuvenated) ≥ Edo Itachi (sick) > Edo Nagato (crippled)

*Bee Tier (High Kage)*

Pain > Sick Itachi > Wheelchair Nagato.


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## Baroxio (Dec 18, 2013)

Nobody but Tsunade (and Naruto with TKB or Hashirama with massive Mokuton spam) can save the village from monumental looses after a spread out invasion like that.

But let's not kid ourselves, if Pein is spread out and Itachi has knowledge then there isn't any way for Itachi to actually lose the fight.

Itachi can deal with literally every Pein Body zero difficulty in a one on one scenario, they are only threatening to him when they gang up. Until then, Itachi will just rout out the ones causing the most damage and beat the shit out of them like the red-headed step children they are.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Let's ignore if it's a push or a hit. Said attack can shatter bones. You receive the damage the moment you are pushed/hit by it.


You can't ignore it, because there lies the difference. The attack itself doesn't shatter bones. Because nothing 'hits' you. You are basically pushed by an invisible force. here

If it was a shockwave, people would have visible damage on the parts that in come contact with it, mostly their faces.





> The clash doesn't break your bones, it's the hit itself. So you suffer damage. Also, you're hit to be pushed. That's why people scream of pain while hit.


Being pushed with such force will hurt you and disorient you thats true. But it doesn't 'hit' you like a shockwave would.

And Itachi can always do this with Susano'o here
here




> Because it depends of the force of the attack. Deva finished Kakashi and co. The moment he wanted. The Boss summons are more durable than them (and Itachi) and were completely screwed. No living being save the Raikages and some other exceptions would take an attack like the one used on the boss summons and live.


Kakashi was already hit twice before the last one. And he was crushed under a pile of debris. He was tired etc. He had only little chakra left for very small uses of Kamui, that means he was exhausted by then.

If the princible is like the gravitational forces like Kakashi suggested, it was natural that gama trio were harmed worse than Kakashi & Co since they are much heavier.



> And how will this help? He will suffer damage either way.


Are you suggesting that crashing to a surface with that momentum doesn't deal any damage ? Susano'O will simply soak the brunt of that damage.

If the initial contact with the shinra tensei dealt most of the damage, then all of Naruto's clones would pop upon contact : 
here

And look @ Naruto's face, even as he is pushed back, his face isn't caved in or anything like that : here

It isn't any different than bansho tenin in princible. One attracts, the other repells.




> Sensors like SM/RM Naruto failed to do so, and the sensors are the only ones with feats of anticipating an attack because of the build of chakra. Sharingan has never shown that.



I can't back this up of course, mine was just an assumption.

But as we know, sharingan can see the chakra circulatory system. Sensors "feel" it. 
That is the difference.


----------



## Kai (Dec 18, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Until then, Itachi will just rout out the ones causing the most damage and beat the shit out of them like the red-headed step children they are.


Orange-headed in Pain's case


----------



## Lord Aizen (Dec 18, 2013)

If this is a weakened pain itachi wins with extremely high difficulty possibly dieing in the process. If pain is at full power itachi gets a hard beat down


----------



## ARGUS (Dec 18, 2013)

Loll at ppl saying Itachi wins and saves the village 
Animal summons alone will completely destroy the village 
Itachi doesn't have legged susanoo like sasuke meaning pein can jus take him out of 

Or if pein wants to destroy the village and Itachi 
He can take the gg CT route which Itachi can simply not counter


----------



## ZE (Dec 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Here's how I see it:
> 
> *Easily Blitzing Bee Tier*
> 
> ...



No.
Pain>edo Nagato

Edo Nagato had a fake rinnegan. Real rinnegan>fake rinnegan 

The rinnegan of the Pains aren?t fake since Deva was capable of summoning Gedo Mazo, which is impossible when you have a fake rinnegan.


----------



## ARGUS (Dec 18, 2013)

ZE said:


> No.
> Pain>edo Nagato
> 
> Edo Nagato had a fake rinnegan. Real rinnegan>fake rinnegan
> ...



Doesn't matter if real>fake 
The feats of Edo nagato easily tell us that he is above pain 
Since his jutsu are on a much better scale and their efficacy is also better 

Pain and nagato are different despite pain being part of nagato 
However I do agree that Alive Nagato (healthy) > Edo Nagato


----------



## ZE (Dec 18, 2013)

Which feats are you talking about? 
I was much more impressed when Pain did this:


or this:


than anything we saw from Nagato.
Sure, using the rinnegan jutsus in one body is good, but Pain allows Nagato to be mobile and immortal since he can lose one or two bodies and keep fighting. When Nagato gets hit, he's done for.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2013)

ZE said:


> Which feats are you talking about?
> I was much more impressed when Pain did this:
> 
> 
> ...



Naruto admitted that Edo Nagato's rinnegan power was beyond Pain's. So this isn't open to debate.

Also we didn't see Nagato use any of that because Itachi 8-paged his motherfucking ass


----------



## ZE (Dec 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto admitted that Edo Nagato's rinnegan power was beyond Pain's. So this isn't open to debate.


What Pain did Naruto fight again?
Oh, the Pain who wasn't trying to kill him, unlike edo Nagato.
Oh, the Pain who was being controlled by a weakened Nagato that had just reduced his lifespam with a huge shinra tensei.
Oh, a Pain who lacked Shinra Tensei and who had to stall for the jutsu to return
Oh, the Pain who had to adjust his fighting style in order to protect Deva. 

Of course that a bloodluster Nagato would be faster and more dangerous, Naruto never fought a full power Pain. 



> Also we didn't see Nagato use any of that because Itachi 8-paged his motherfucking ass


Or maybe because he had a fake rinnegan, and because he was immobile like Kabuto said.

The Pains have the true rinnegan and aren't immobile.


----------



## Tsunami (Dec 18, 2013)

I really can't decide on this but if they fought 100% against each it would destroy a lot of shit. Tie, village obliterated


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 18, 2013)

Make God Realm unable to use his powers for about 10 minutes to make this fairer. Only the super elite characters (the ones who are stupidly powerful like Obito, Madara, Nagato, Hashirama...) can hope to handle _*all six*_ of Pain Rikudou concurrently. 

We saw what happened to SM Naruto when there was God Realm and _one_ body. ITT Itachi faces that situation, but with _five_ bodies instead of one.



Nikushimi said:


> Ah, we've lost IchLiebe.
> 
> Or did the Will of Itachi simply pass on to Munboy?
> 
> Something weird is going on here...



The Will of Itachi tells me that he would get BT'd by God Realm and await whatever God (see what I did thar? ) uses to kill him. Especially as Preta Path will render any Ninjutsu useless, and all the other paths can do something about projectiles etc. Assuming Human Realm doesn't get behind to Itachi fast enough to extract his soul.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also we didn't see Nagato use any of that because Itachi 8-paged his motherfucking ass



However Nagato one paneled Itachi with a Shinra Tensei. A Shinra Tensei that Pain could very likely replicate.


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You can't ignore it, because there lies the difference. The attack itself doesn't shatter bones. Because nothing 'hits' you. You are basically pushed by an invisible force. hype
> 
> If it was a shockwave, people would have visible damage on the parts that in come contact with it, mostly their faces.



It's a repulsion force, you are hit by something that pushes you.

That looks like a shockwave. Something that pushes you so hard won't be a breeze.

Also, there's not necessary to show their faces damaged. Especially if the attack doesn't hit their face.

The attack itself does shatter bones 




> Being pushed with such force will hurt you and disorient you thats true. But it doesn't 'hit' you like a shockwave would.



Scans above.



> And Itachi can always do this with Susano'o The attack itself does shatter bones
> The attack itself does shatter bones



He should have superior force than Deva path in order to do that. And his Susano'o has shown to be far below Kyuubi Naruto in strenght. And in order to try that, he needs to have his arms in the ground beforehand. 



> Kakashi was already hit twice before the last one. And he was crushed under a pile of debris. He was tired etc. He had only little chakra left for very small uses of Kamui, that means he was exhausted by then.



Choji's dad wasn't. And he was pressumed dead. 



> If the princible is like the gravitational forces like Kakashi suggested, it was natural that gama trio were harmed worse than Kakashi & Co since they are much heavier.



Except that this was proven false when Nagato showed he could change the force of ST when he destroyed Konoha, and all of them would've died if it wasn't by Katsuyu. A mere hit destroyed the entire village.



> Are you suggesting that crashing to a surface with that momentum doesn't deal any damage ? Susano'O will simply soak the brunt of that damage.



Crashing to a surface with momentum doesn't break all your bones and leaves you unable to battle. Danzo crashed against a bridge  by a Susano'o punch and was unscathed. Magatama sent Tsunade hard enough to the floor and was unscathed. Hell, Madara crashed against the floor with a lot of force and was like nothing.

Like i said, Itachi needs Susano'o beforehand to take it. And activating Susano'o in the air won't do much, he will just be tiring himself.



> If the initial contact with the shinra tensei dealt most of the damage, then all of Naruto's clones would pop upon contact :
> Madara



Look closely. Naruto's clones are dissapearing in the air without clashing. And i recall ninjutsu disappearing with direct touch of Shinra Tensei. That wouldn't be the case if said jutsu only pushed it back.



> And look @ Naruto's face, even as he is pushed back, his face isn't caved in or anything like that : Madara
> 
> 
> It isn't any different than bansho tenin in princible. One attracts, the other repells.



Those were the clones that survived it. Look at Naruto's face in the first scan, that's not the face of someone not feeling pain. The "Gha!" is not something you say when you don't feel pain. A lot of Naruto clones clashed and helped the others. Also, you are using feats of a Nagato that was in the blink of death.




> I can't back this up of course, mine was just an assumption.
> 
> But as we know, sharingan can see the chakra circulatory system. Sensors "feel" it.
> That is the difference.



Yeah, it can see the chakra flow. But it has never helped them before. Kakashi didn't even know when Deva activated ST, SM Naruto either. And it's plausible that Itachi couldn't, otherwise he would've used Susano'o instead of being hit by a blast that he doesn't know about.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 18, 2013)

ZE said:


> No.
> Pain>edo Nagato
> 
> Edo Nagato had a fake rinnegan. Real rinnegan>fake rinnegan
> ...



That's a good point, but it was implied by KCM Naruto that Edo Nagato's techniques were on a general level higher than that of Pain because he wasn't fighting through puppets. 

So while Deva may have had access to Gedō Mazō, he was still reflexively and technically (speed-wise) inferior to Edo Nagato, and that much more inferior to a peak living Nagato.

And I don't think Gedō Mazō would stand up to the Deva Path too well, so Nagato could push it away and then use his superior techinque speed and power to rip his puppets apart.​


----------



## Lord Aizen (Dec 19, 2013)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Loll at ppl saying Itachi wins and saves the village
> Animal summons alone will completely destroy the village
> Itachi doesn't have legged susanoo like sasuke meaning pein can jus take him out of
> 
> ...



When I say itachi wins I mean deva path is out like when pain was fighting naruto
If Pain is at full power it's a stomp


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 19, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> However Nagato one paneled Itachi with a Shinra Tensei. A Shinra Tensei that Pain could very likely replicate.



Like Itachi 1 panaled Nagato & his summons with Amaterasu.

Only that what I said actually happened on panel.
Yours is just an assumption 



ZE said:


> What Pain did Naruto fight again?
> Oh, the Pain who wasn't trying to kill him, unlike edo Nagato.
> Oh, the Pain who was being controlled by a weakened Nagato that had just reduced his lifespam with a huge shinra tensei.
> Oh, a Pain who lacked Shinra Tensei and who had to stall for the jutsu to return
> ...



Naruto compared their techniques. Not them as individuals.
Nagato's techniques were stronger than Pain's.



LostSelf said:


> It's a repulsion force, you are hit by something that pushes you.


Not exactly no, not in the conventional sense.



> That looks like a shockwave. Something that pushes you so hard won't be a breeze.


It is not a shockwave. Stated.



> Also, there's not necessary to show their faces damaged. Especially if the attack doesn't hit their face.


It surely did in most cases.



> The attack itself does shatter bones


You mean after they crashed on the ground and dragged for several meters ?




> Scans above.


I read them,  doesn't change the fact that it isn't a shockwave.




> He should have superior force than Deva path in order to do that. And his *Susano'o has shown to be far below Kyuubi Naruto in strenght*.


Care to support that argument please ?



> And in order to try that, he needs to have his arms in the ground beforehand.


Naruto stuck his tails underground after he was hit.



> Choji's dad wasn't. And he was pressumed dead.


Because he is fat, and fodder.




> Except that this was proven false when Nagato showed he could change the force of ST when he destroyed Konoha, and all of them would've died if it wasn't by Katsuyu. A mere hit destroyed the entire village.


It actually didn't ? 
He basically pushed everything back, anything that couldn't withstand the force was pushed back aswell.





> Crashing to a surface with momentum doesn't break all your bones and leaves you unable to battle.


It completely depends on how hard you crash.



> Danzo crashed against a bridge  by a Susano'o punch and was unscathed. Magatama sent Tsunade hard enough to the floor and was unscathed. Hell, Madara crashed against the floor with a lot of force and was like nothing.


Any evidence that Deva's ST would shatter their bones ?
Becase as far as I know, it failed to shatter Naruto's, Kakashi's or Chouji's.



> Like i said, Itachi needs Susano'o beforehand to take it. And activating Susano'o in the air won't do much, he will just be tiring himself.


Activating Susano'o will soak the brunt of the damage, and allow him to resist it like Naruto did.




> Look closely. Naruto's clones are dissapearing in the air without clashing. And i recall ninjutsu disappearing with direct touch of Shinra Tensei. That wouldn't be the case if said jutsu only pushed it back.


Some of them did. Some of them didn't.

Kishimoto has been very liberal with what ST disperses with touch. Clones weren't dispersed.



> Those were the clones that survived it. Look at Naruto's face in the first scan, that's not the face of someone not feeling pain. The "Gha!" is not something you say when you don't feel pain. A lot of Naruto clones clashed and helped the others. Also, you are using feats of a Nagato that was in the blink of death.



That sound effect doesn't necessarily mean he is in pain. 
Imagine you and someone else pushing each other with all your strength. You'll make sounds like that.

In Naruto's case, he was in pain but thats because he was squeezed in between clones pushing him and St pushing him.




> Yeah, it can see the chakra flow. But it has never helped them before. Kakashi didn't even know when Deva activated ST, SM Naruto either. And it's plausible that Itachi couldn't,* otherwise he would've used Susano'o instead of being hit by a blast that he doesn't know about*.



How do you know he didn't ? 

Also neither sharingan nor sensors have chakra sensing/seeing constantly activated. You have to consciously use that ability, and if someone isn't expecting it, naturally they won't.


----------



## Jagger (Dec 19, 2013)

Let's bet on who gets banned first: Nikushimi or Vice. 

Anyway, I am not saying Pain wins or Itachi does, but Konoha may suffer severe damage. The different between Tsunade and Itachi and his hypothetical scenario of protecting the village as the "Hokage" is that the former had medical capacities and the ability to heal most of the village and protect them from Pain's heavy attacks such as CST. 

Itachi isn't a medic. Even if he wins, tons of people will die, unfortunely. He isn't a medic, he can't heal people, let alone a huge amount of them.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 19, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Let's bet on who gets banned first: Nikushimi or Vice.
> 
> Anyway, I am not saying Pain wins or Itachi does, but Konoha may suffer severe damage. The different between Tsunade and Itachi and his hypothetical scenario of protecting the village as the "Hokage" is that the former had medical capacities and the ability to heal most of the village and protect them from Pain's heavy attacks such as CST.
> 
> Itachi isn't a medic. Even if he wins, tons of people will die, unfortunely. He isn't a medic, he can't heal people, let alone a huge amount of them.




You don't have to be a medic to protect the village.

Otherwise all kages would be picked among medics.


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 19, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Not exactly no, not in the conventional sense.



Yes, it's a repulsive force. It's even stated to repel things away from him. And in order to do that you need to face against an opposing force. If said things were just gravity, Kunais wouldn't bounce back [1], [2]. For that to happen, it needs to meet an opposing force. 

If said attack was only gravity, then Kakashi alone would've been sent back. But the floor is getting affected as well [...]



> It is not a shockwave. Stated.



Kakashi's words vs Manga panel. And Kakashi's words called it Repulsive forces.

Repulsive _3. Physics Opposing in direction: a repulsive force._.

So yeah, ST might not be a shockwave. But everything meets an opposing force strong enough to push anything back. So it hurts.



> It surely did in most cases.



We don't know.



> You mean after they crashed on the ground and dragged for several meters ?



Oh, sure they did. But not only i explained how crashing is a non factor in the manga, comparing it with the much more durable bodies of the boss summons compared to the examples i provided.

But Gamabunta's back was the only part of his body that crashed. And he said _all_ his bones. He doesn't have bones in his back only, so ST did broke them. The three frogs were only hit in one part of their body, and they were completely out of the fight.



> I read them,  doesn't change the fact that it isn't a shockwave.



But it's a repulsive force. Kakashi never said it didn't do damage, just that it didn't feel like a shockwave. That doesn't even mean it is not. And that doesn't even mean that it doesn't do damage.



> Care to support that argument please ?



KN4 did this with an arm swing, Susano'o has never shown that and it's best feat is punching Danzo back without damage at all. Madara's feats also pales in comparison, since one of the clones punched Mei and didn't do notable damage.

Now imagine a 6 tails.



> Naruto stuck his tails underground after he was hit.



He did it before a cocky Deva path fired it [...]



> Because he is fat, and fodder.



Just because is fodder doesn't convince me. Amaterasu has only killed fodder, then we can assume it will never kill a relevant character. Or that any one shot jutsu won't work on Sakura because she's not fodder. Choji's dad got the same threatment than the boss summons, and their weight  are far from equal.



> It actually didn't ?
> He basically pushed everything back, anything that couldn't withstand the force was pushed back aswell.



And his interval of 5 seconds increased to minutes because the technique was stronger. Not just larger. And it also didn't hit the village completely since the villagers were not buried in the ground, it hit the center and everything began to be destroyed.




> It completely depends on how hard you crash.



Then why were the Naruto clones dissapearing without clashing and with a painful look on their faces?



> Any evidence that Deva's ST would shatter their bones ?
> Becase as far as I know, it failed to shatter Naruto's, Kakashi's or Chouji's.



Answered above. And how do you know it failed to break Kakashi's? He wasn't even moving and bleeding. Chouji's dad was also out of the fight.



> Activating Susano'o will soak the brunt of the damage, and allow him to resist it like Naruto did.



Needs to do it before. And Susano'o hasn't shown to overpower Shinra Tensei. In case Itachi's has it activated before, he will be sent flying along with Susano'o, therefore, ending outlasted. 



> Some of them did. Some of them didn't.



Some of them were not directly hit by the attack since some of them were behind some others.



> Kishimoto has been very liberal with what ST disperses with touch. Clones weren't dispersed.



Yeah, it has been ocassions where clones are dispersed with a touch, and others where they are not. Like datclone surviving the meteor, but being dispersed by a hit from Obito. It has not only happened with ST.



> That sound effect doesn't necessarily mean he is in pain.
> Imagine you and someone else pushing each other with all your strength. You'll make sounds like that.



Not "Gha!" with a painful expression on my face if nothing is hurting me.



> In Naruto's case, he was in pain but thats because he was squeezed in between clones pushing him and St pushing him.



Naruto was shown in pain before even touching a clone. And this is the guy that made a giant snake explode with TKB. I doubt being squeezed between clones is a matter to him enough to make him suffer.




> How do you know he didn't ?



He didn't, otherwise he would've acted in order to protect Naruto and Bee.



> Also neither sharingan nor sensors have chakra sensing/seeing constantly activated. You have to consciously use that ability, and if someone isn't expecting it, naturally they won't.


Naruto was sensing Nagato that time, and he couldn't tell when Nagato used Shinra Tensei and was hit like Bee. And Naruto had surpassed Itachi in reactions by that time. And a sensor is always sensing, especially when you are in a fight and you begin to feel a malicious presence.

Even Itachi should've put his guard up.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 19, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like Itachi 1 panaled Nagato & his summons with Amaterasu.
> 
> Only that what I said actually happened on panel.
> Yours is just an assumption



What you said omits details like the Edo Tensei restriction and Kabuto's limited knowledge. 

I suppose "the King" just wanted to see his comrades almost die? 
Or, the more logical explanation: Shinra Tensei literally soloed (*a non controlled*) Itachi.


----------



## BashFace (Dec 19, 2013)

Itachi smashes! ck


----------



## Jagger (Dec 19, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You don't have to be a medic to protect the village.
> 
> Otherwise all kages would be picked among medics.


I never said that. Itachi may, or not, kill Pain and protecting the village at the end. However, Konoha didn't suffer more losses than what they had because of Tsunade's efforts.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 19, 2013)

ZE said:


> No.
> Pain>edo Nagato
> 
> Edo Nagato had a fake rinnegan. Real rinnegan>fake rinnegan
> ...



Naruto explicitly stated that Edo Nagato was stronger (and faster) than Pain.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The Will of Itachi tells me that he would get BT'd by God Realm and await whatever God (see what I did thar? ) uses to kill him.



Susano'o anchors and defends.



> Especially as Preta Path will render any Ninjutsu useless,



That's what Itachi's throwing-weapons are for.



> and all the other paths can do something about projectiles etc.



Pain's bodies aren't equipped to counter shuriken spam through physical means; Tendou has Shinra Tensei and Shuradou is a tank, and Chikushodou can block with a summon, but that's it.



> Assuming Human Realm doesn't get behind to Itachi fast enough to extract his soul.



Itachi dodged B in the same fashion.



> However Nagato one paneled Itachi with a Shinra Tensei. A Shinra Tensei that Pain could very likely replicate.



It was an ambush and there's still no evidence it actually hit Itachi.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 19, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Susano'o anchors and defends.



With a weak enough ST. Though that leaves Itachi open to be raped by other paths. 



> That's what Itachi's throwing-weapons are for.



Other Paths still counter.



> Pain's bodies aren't equipped to counter shuriken spam through physical means; Tendou has Shinra Tensei and Shuradou is a tank, and Chikushodou can block with a summon, but that's it.



They have weapons. 



> Itachi dodged B in the same fashion.



Bee doesn't share vision with Naruto. Ergo he wouldn't be able to strike as efficiently as Pain.



> It was an ambush and there's still no evidence it actually hit Itachi.



It is either believe in something unlikely like Itachi allowed his comrades to almost die - OOC. 
Or something likely: Itachi got soloed by ST and saved his comrades as soon as he recovered seeing as ET takes time to regenerate.


----------



## ZE (Dec 19, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Naruto explicitly stated that Edo Nagato was stronger (and faster) than Pain.



Full power Pain with no restrictions vs fake rinnegan Nagato 

Pain summons Gedo Mazo
Gedo Mazo uses soul sucking dragon
Nagato is immobile and can't dodge it
game over


----------



## Lord Aizen (Dec 20, 2013)

ZE said:


> Full power Pain with no restrictions vs fake rinnegan Nagato
> 
> Pain summons Gedo Mazo
> Gedo Mazo uses soul sucking dragon
> ...



Then your talking about gedo mazo not pain
Nagato >>> edo Nagato > pain


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Dec 20, 2013)

> Originally Posted by *Grimmjowsensei*
> You can't ignore it, because there lies the difference.* The attack itself doesn't shatter bones*. Because nothing 'hits' you. You are basically pushed by an invisible force. Hanzō
> 
> If it was a shockwave, people would have visible damage on the parts that in come contact with it, mostly their faces.



Hanzō

Explain Kakashi's Earth Style: Earth Wall getting shattered into millions of fragments, if Shinra Tensei supposedly lacks any impact.


----------



## Sans (Dec 20, 2013)

Munboy's posts are like gazing into the abyss of comedic insanity.


----------



## Shariwin (Dec 20, 2013)

Pain would rape itachi beyond belief....


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> retcon
> 
> Explain Kakashi's Earth Style: Earth Wall getting shattered into millions of fragments, if Shinra Tensei supposedly lacks any impact.



It is being pushed and can't resist it.

Come on people, this isn't rocket science.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Yes, it's a repulsive force. It's even stated to repel things away from him. And in order to do that you need to face against an opposing force. If said things were just gravity, Kunais wouldn't bounce back [1], [2]. For that to happen, it needs to meet an opposing force.


When did I say it isn't force ? 
I am just saying that it isn't a shockwave.




> If said attack was only gravity, then Kakashi alone would've been sent back. But the floor is getting affected as well [...]



Thats what happens when you push the ground.

Try to push the soil with your hand, and see if it is pushed back in. You don't have to hit something to create an impact.





> Kakashi's words vs Manga panel. And Kakashi's words called it Repulsive forces.
> 
> Repulsive _3. Physics Opposing in direction: a repulsive force._.
> 
> So yeah, ST might not be a shockwave. But everything meets an opposing force strong enough to push anything back. So it hurts.


I don't disagree with this. 
I also didn't say it doesn't hurt. But the push it self doesn't shatter bones the moment it comes in contact with you.




> We don't know.


Yes we know. 
Look @the size of force effecting Kakashi. His face would be crushed in if that was the case.





> Oh, sure they did. But not only i explained how crashing is a non factor in the manga,


When did you explain this ?
Eitherway it is wrong.



> comparing it with the much more durable bodies of the boss summons compared to the examples i provided.


Like I said, the heavier they are the harder they fall.





> But Gamabunta's back was the only part of his body that crashed. And he said _all_ his bones. He doesn't have bones in his back only, so ST did broke them. The three frogs were only hit in one part of their body, and they were completely out of the fight.


That is also a wrong assumption.
His whole body was smashed to the floor. He also doesn't need to touch all his surface area to the ground to get all his bones broken. The power of the impact can shatter the bones that don't come in contact with the ground. And I always thought it was a matter of expression. There is no way he could tell how many of his bones were broken. In a human case, there are 206 of them.



> But it's a repulsive force. Kakashi never said it didn't do damage, just that it didn't feel like a shockwave. That doesn't even mean it is not. And that doesn't even mean that it doesn't do damage.


It surely does mean that it isn't a shockwave.
Because If Kakashi didn't express that, we'd all think that it was a shockwave because thats how it looks like.

I also expressed that ST would do damage, I just told you that the initial contact isn't what does all the damage.





> KN4 did this with an arm swing, Susano'o has never shown that and it's best feat is punching Danzo back without damage at all. Madara's feats also pales in comparison, since one of the clones punched Mei and didn't do notable damage.
> 
> Now imagine a 6 tails.



Link removed

I don't see a shockwave here.

Also Susano'o's best feat is not punching danzo without any damage. That might be one of the low end feats.

It has feats like liquifying danzo by squeezing him, or turning him into a stain on the floor by punching him.

Or in Itachi's case, Karate chopping Nagato's limbs, including the asura part which had strong enough tentacles to restrain Kirabi.
Don't forget that that is the Nagato who wasn't visibly damaged by Kirabi's lariat which almost killed Kisame. He lost a couple of limbs there.

Anyways, these are a bit off topic.


All I can say is this, Naruto withstood ST with around 20 clones without anchoring himself to the ground. I am not sure what that equates to in terms of force but Susano'o was able to stop the charge of Yamata no jutsu with arm without budging an inch. turning him into a stain on the floor by punching him
That must be more than the amount of force 20 clones can generate with their body strength.




> He did it before a cocky Deva path fired it [...]


He actually aims and says "shinra tensei." So he fired it off at that moment and Kyuubi reacted almost @ the same time.

Itachi can replicate it, I don't see any problem with that.




> Just because is fodder doesn't convince me. Amaterasu has only killed fodder, then we can assume it will never kill a relevant character. Or that any one shot jutsu won't work on Sakura because she's not fodder. Choji's dad got the same threatment than the boss summons, and their weight  are far from equal.


Well it doesn't have to. 

Eitherway, we can simply say that Chouji's dad is much less durable than Kakashi or Chouji.




> And his interval of 5 seconds increased to minutes because the technique was stronger. Not just larger


.
In ST's case they are teh same thing.



> And it also didn't hit the village completely since the villagers were not buried in the ground, it hit the center and everything began to be destroyed.


? I don't get your point here.
[...]
Thats the point of impact.




> Then why were the Naruto clones dissapearing without clashing and with a painful look on their faces?


I can ask you the same thing. Why aren't Naruto clones dissapearing against a boneshattering force ?




> Answered above. And how do you know it failed to break Kakashi's? He wasn't even moving and bleeding. Chouji's dad was also out of the fight.


Kakashi was under a pile of debris. And he already took 2 of them before and was almost out of chakra.

I adressed Chouji's dad. He is fodder and he is less durable than Chouji and Kakashi.
Chouji's bones were fine he got up and started running.




> Needs to do it before. And Susano'o hasn't shown to overpower Shinra Tensei. In case Itachi's has it activated before, he will be sent flying along with Susano'o, therefore, ending outlasted.


I am pretty sure Susano'o is easily in Kn6's strength pallpark if not on higher, and will resist the push.
Even if he can't resist it, Susano'o tanked Kirin, so it'll tank anything bar the city busting ST with absolute ease, then proceed to muder stomp Deva during the 5 sec cooldown.




> Some of them were not directly hit by the attack since some of them were behind some others.


That wouldn't change anything. They were all in mid air initially, their weight wouldn't stop ST from effecting the others in the back.




> Yeah, it has been ocassions where clones are dispersed with a touch, and others where they are not. Like datclone surviving the meteor, but being dispersed by a hit from Obito. It has not only happened with ST


.

I agree with this. But very powerful attacks consistently dispersed clones.
St was used on SM Naruto and SM Naruto's clone and clone got dispersed after it hit the ground a couple of times and Naruto was completely fine.





> Not "Gha!" with a painful expression on my face if nothing is hurting me.


When you are using your full strength to push something that is resisting you, believe me thats how your face will look like.

Sometimes thats how my face looks like when I am benchpressing with max weight because my musles are reaching their limit. 
I usually control the sounds I make but If you've been to a gym before, then you must have heard some guys moaning like they'r trying to take a 10" dildo up their ass without any lube.

In otherwords some guys make sounds like they are in extreme pain when they are benchpressing. 




> Naruto was shown in pain before even touching a clone. And this is the guy that made a giant snake explode with TKB. I doubt being squeezed between clones is a matter to him enough to make him suffer.


Giant snake couldn't resist and exploded though, Naruto wasn't squeezed.
And you don't know if he suffered or not, thats another thing.

In ST's case a powerful force was pushing Naruto while the clones were matching it back. Naruto was in the middle. Yes he was hurt but his bones weren't,as far as I could tell, shattering.




> He didn't, otherwise he would've acted in order to protect Naruto and Bee.


How ? Everything went flying. And later on he saved them.




> Naruto was sensing Nagato that time, and he couldn't tell when Nagato used Shinra Tensei and was hit like Bee. And Naruto had surpassed Itachi in reactions by that time. And a sensor is always sensing, especially when you are in a fight and you begin to feel a malicious presence.



Naruto senses malicious intent, that is more different than a sensors ability. KCM doesn't have the sensing ability SM has. They have different applications. If Naruto was in SM, he'd pinpoint Nagato.


Also sensors don't constantly sense.
Otherwise Karin wouldn't stop and use sensing to locate Danzo, or try to sense whether Sasuke was under the influence of a genjutsu or not.

Or that sharingan doesn't have chakra vision turned on @ all times, because then Itachi wouldn't be able to see anyones face, which is wrong because we've seen through his eyes once or twice when he had sharingan activated.




> Even Itachi should've put his guard up.



Itachi wasn't shown in any of the panels after Kabuto took control of Nagato
So any argument regarding that would be pure speculation.


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## Shariwin (Dec 20, 2013)

Surely, you aren't trying to argue Itachi can beat pain?  I know that nonsense isn't transpiring.... No way!


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2013)

Shariwin said:


> Surely, you aren't trying to argue Itachi can beat pain?  I know that nonsense isn't transpiring.... No way!



Dupe much ?


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## Shariwin (Dec 20, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Dupe much ?



Are you trying for a red herring, instead of an argument?  I commend you for trying, given how poor your argument is.  Too bad, it didn't work.


Animal path alone could probably handle a sick Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2013)

Shariwin said:


> Are you trying for a red herring, instead of an argument?  I commend you for trying, given how poor your argument is.  Too bad, it didn't work.
> 
> 
> *Animal path alone could probably handle a sick Itachi*.



OH FUCK NOW I KNOW YOUR TRUE IDENTITY !!!

No, not astonine. He was also a proxy. 

I felt how Jiraiya felt that exact moment. 

You gave yourself away with the bolded part.

There was someone in BD years who used to say the same thing. 
I just need to remember who it was.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 20, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is being pushed and can't resist it.
> 
> Come on people, this isn't rocket science.



... what? Objects do not shatter upon point of impact, when they're being *pushed. *

It's a fucking *rock wall*. The fact that it shattered into that many fragments proves that Shinra Tensei packs a punch, not just a push.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> ... what? Objects do not shatter upon point of impact, when they're being *pushed. *
> 
> It's a fucking *rock wall*. The fact that it shattered into that many fragments proves that Shinra Tensei packs a punch, not just a push.



Try to go over a wall with a tank.


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## LostSelf (Dec 20, 2013)

*Note: This is getting too large. And Fior Fior did me a Combo Breaker. I had to put everything in three posts. *



Grimmjowsensei said:


> When did I say it isn't force ?
> I am just saying that it isn't a shockwave.




If it's an opposing force that makes everything bounce with a clash, then it's not a simple push.



> Thats what happens when you push the ground.



Then it's not only gravity, it's a hit.



> Try to push the soil with your hand, and see if it is pushed back in. You don't have to hit something to create an impact.



So it's a push strong enough to open the floor with the mere contact? Then it does damage on initial contact.




> I don't disagree with this.
> I also didn't say it doesn't hurt. But the push it self doesn't shatter bones the moment it comes in contact with you.



The crash certainly doesn't, either, as Chouza was out of the fight and didn't seem to crash hard. Then it had to be the initial hit.

Shinra Tensei hits you and makes you crash. You're saying you agree it does do damage, but then if it's not only with the crash? It has to be when it hits you. There's not middle thing about hitting you and sending you flying back.



> Yes we know.
> Look @the size of force effecting Kakashi. His face would be crushed in if that was the case.



Except that Deva didn't use one strong enough to take him down. The one strong enough put them all down with one hit. And he had hit Chouza before with one and the guy was undamaged, yet, when he decides to finish it, Chouza is seemingly dead. 




> When did you explain this ?
> Eitherway it is wrong.



People clashing with the floor? Hard enough to destroy boulders and moving like nothing happened? When has crashing defeated someone in the manga aside from the examples of ST? Danzo moved like nothing after being sent through a bridge with enough force and Madara jumped and clashed hard when he arrived. A Boss summon then can't take it?



> Like I said, the heavier they are the harder they fall.



Not really. They were sent flying far away, therefore they met an opposing force strong enough to hit them far away and crash so hard. So, that force, that clearly looked like a Shockwave should've hit them very hard. And that's the boss Summon. Susano'o won't take one of that magnitude like that, Itachi either.



> That is also a wrong assumption.
> His whole body was smashed to the floor. He also doesn't need to touch all his surface area to the ground to get all his bones broken. The power of the impact can shatter the bones that don't come in contact with the ground. And I always thought it was a matter of expression. There is no way he could tell how many of his bones were broken. In a human case, there are 206 of them.



Not his whole body. His back, he clashed and the momentum of the attack dragged him across the land, i wouldn't account being dragged around would break his bones. Also, Gamabunta said "_every damm bone in my body_", he was being very literal there.



> It surely does mean that it isn't a shockwave.
> Because If Kakashi didn't express that, we'd all think that it was a shockwave because thats how it looks like.



It didn't feel like =/= It's not a shockwave. The attack looks like a Shockwave, it causes craters like a shockwave with the push. Shockwave or not, said push hits you. 



> I also expressed that ST would do damage, I just told you that the initial contact isn't what does all the damage.




Then when? The initial contact is the push. And people have expressed pain with the initial contact. Being in the air won't hurt. And SM Naruto, who clashed against a sharp rock was feeling pain with the initial hit. Clashing with an atatck that's not meant to kill you is shit compared to that. Feeling pain about an attack when clashing against a sharp rock did nothing to you really shows how painful the initial contact of ST is, and how much can damage the way less durable Itachi.


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## LostSelf (Dec 20, 2013)

> *about this big *
> 
> I don't see a shockwave here



So what? He caused a shockwave with an arm swing. Not causing it there doesn't mean he can't. He did it before.



> Also Susano'o's best feat is not punching danzo without any damage. That might be one of the low end feats.
> 
> It has feats like liquifying danzo by squeezing him, or turning him into a stain on the floor by punching him.



Of course, Danzo was in the middle of a giant punch and the floor, and he is not durable. Any giant thing clashing hard with his head would've caused the same.



> Or in Itachi's case, Karate chopping Nagato's limbs, including the asura part which had strong enough tentacles to restrain Kirabi.
> Don't forget that that is the Nagato who wasn't visibly damaged by Kirabi's lariat which almost killed Kisame. He lost a couple of limbs there.



Yeah, but strong is not the same as durable. Chouji destroyed Asura path completely. A giant being will have enough strenght to destroy something smaller. I'm not saying Susano'o is not strong. But those feats pales in comparison with creating a huge Shockwave with the wave of a arm.

Nagato is durable, that is true. His body showed better durability feats than his same Asura path (Jutsu that was trolled as well as almost all the others he should've above the paths here).



> All I can say is this, Naruto withstood ST with around 20 clones without anchoring himself to the ground. I am not sure what that equates to in terms of force but Susano'o was able to stop the charge of Yamata no jutsu with arm without budging an inch. turning him into a stain on the floor by punching him
> That must be more than the amount of force 20 clones can generate with their body strength.



Yes, but remember that Deva path had fought a whole village, had fought Naruto, KN6 and used CST and CT. The path, who was keeping up with Kakashi and beating him in close quarters with his attention divided by 6 was barely moving. He could've jumped high like he did to destroy Konoha and avoid Naruto's clones. But he was in the blink of collapsing.



> He actually aims and says "shinra tensei." So he fired it off at that moment and Kyuubi reacted almost @ the same time.



He said Shinra Tensei, Kyuubi put the tails in the ground and he fired it. Deva was too sure of himself if you look at his face. But he doesn't really need to say Shinra Tensei in order to shoot said jutsu.



> Itachi can replicate it, I don't see any problem with that.



His Susano'o should have more or less the same strenght of KN6. KN4 has shown superior strenght than himself. Deva should be the only path here as well for Itachi to be expecting the defensive measures Deva will do, and Nagato should shout "Shinra Tensei" or lift his hands in order to do so.

He will never predict it if Nagato just shoots it without any kind of warning. And considering he was able to send three much more heaviy beings than Susano'o several meters in the air with ease, i don't see Susano'o defeating Almighty push.


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## fior fior (Dec 20, 2013)

Itachi never tried to kill Pain, despite the fact that he knew the Paths were headed for the village (at least I assume so, knowing Itachi). If he was capable of killing Pain, he would have gone after him and put a stop to it before the village was fucking destroyed.

Canon fact: Itachi is incapable of defeating Pain.


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## LostSelf (Dec 20, 2013)

> Well it doesn't have to.
> 
> Eitherway, we can simply say that Chouji's dad is much less durable than Kakashi or Chouji.



Chouji's dad took Gedo Mazo's flaming shockwave. Sure, in giant form, but he was met with an attack of his own size, there's not much of a diference. He's not less durable than Kakashi. Actually Kakashi hasn't shown impressive durability.
.


> In ST's case they are teh same thing.



They are the same jutsu, but stronger. Fukusaku said the more power he uses, the more he has to wait. So he can change the force of ST. Something that wouldn't be possible if it just were a push that works based on the weight of the target and nothing more.



> ? I don't get your point here.
> power
> Thats the point of impact.



Look at the center. That's where ST really hit. Not the entire village itself.



> I can ask you the same thing. Why aren't Naruto clones dissapearing against a boneshattering force ?



They are disappearing, without clashing with anything. And again, Nagato was near collapsing and _still_ he was not going for the kill.



> Kakashi was under a pile of debris. And he already took 2 of them before and was almost out of chakra.



Two of them that did no notable damage at all. The third not only took him out, took out Chouza and another guy out. So it was not because it was the third. Deva just made it stronger like i proved above.



> I adressed Chouji's dad. He is fodder and he is less durable than Chouji and Kakashi.
> Chouji's bones were fine he got up and started running.



He's not less durable than Kakashi, like i said above. And Chouji survived because he was being protected



> I am pretty sure Susano'o is easily in Kn6's strength pallpark if not on higher, and will resist the push.



That's not true, or hasn't been shown. Susano'o's strenght comes from it's size, but it's punches has done nothing great and the damage it has done were when the victim was cornered or couldn't be sent flying.

Mei and Danzo took the punch very well when a weaker version of Naruto cut Orochimaru in half with an arm swing, and created a huge shockwave. Nothing implies Itachi's Susano'o will hold it's ground.



> Even if he can't resist it, Susano'o tanked Kirin, so it'll tank anything bar the city busting ST with absolute ease, then proceed to muder stomp Deva during the 5 sec cooldown.



It didn't tanked it. It was completely oblirerated. I'm sure Shinra Tensei might not destroy Susano'o completely. But i'm sure it can send it flying like it did to Gamabunta.

Itachi will never murderstomp Deva path, even if it's the only path. The cooldown will be over by the time Itachi returns to the battlefield (Assuming he protects before ST hits him). Also, Asura path is another one enough to force Itachi use Susano'o. He can win by just protecting himself againt head cannon and being sent flying al over the battlefield.



> That wouldn't change anything. They were all in mid air initially, their weight wouldn't stop ST from effecting the others in the back.




Why not? If there are clones behind others, then ST will just hit the ones in the front lines harder than the ones in the back. And that was what happened when only the clones standing in front dispersed by the hit.



> I agree with this. But very powerful attacks consistently dispersed clones.
> St was used on SM Naruto and SM Naruto's clone and clone got dispersed after it hit the ground a couple of times and Naruto was completely fine.



Probably it took time? SM Naruto clashed against a sharp rock like i said, so clashing against the floor was a breeze to him. Plus, before hitting the floor he had an expression of pain. The guy that stood up unscatthed after hitting a piercing rock. He not only took it like nothing, he destroyed them.




> When you are using your full strength to push something that is resisting you, believe me thats how your face will look like.


I'm not talking about the scan where Naruto is resisting the force. I'm talking about the first, when Naruto is hit and is in the air, he has a painful expression. Expression that the same durable SM Naruto made after being hit.



> Sometimes thats how my face looks like when I am benchpressing with max weight because my musles are reaching their limit.
> I usually control the sounds I make but If you've been to a gym before, then you must have heard some guys moaning like they'r trying to take a 10" dildo up their ass without any lube.
> 
> In otherwords some guys make sounds like they are in extreme pain when they are benchpressing.




Yes, i go to the gym as well, and when you are lifting and you feel your muscles reaching the limit, it hurts. But like i said above, i'm not refering myself to that scan. I meant when he was hit, before clashing.



> Giant snake couldn't resist and exploded though, Naruto wasn't squeezed.
> And you don't know if he suffered or not, thats another thing.



Naruto was squeezed either way. He had to explode the snake, therefore all the clones made pressure to him as well.



> In ST's case a powerful force was pushing Naruto while the clones were matching it back. Naruto was in the middle. Yes he was hurt but his bones weren't,as far as I could tell, shattering.



Almost dead Deva path that couldn't even move. This just proves cna be as strong as the user wants.



> How ? Everything went flying. And later on he saved them.



We are talking about Itachi here. Naruto felt Nagato, Nagato appeared and attacked. It's a Rinnegan user. I highly doubt Itachi was just going to hide and do nothing while Naruto and Bee fought.

It's very plausible that ST hit Itachi as well.



> Naruto senses malicious intent, that is more different than a sensors ability. KCM doesn't have the sensing ability SM has. They have different applications. If Naruto was in SM, he'd pinpoint Nagato.



He could pinpoint Kisame in Samehada, He could've figured out Nagato's location the same way. 



> Also sensors don't constantly sense.
> Otherwise Karin wouldn't stop and use sensing to locate Danzo, or try to sense whether Sasuke was under the influence of a genjutsu or not.



In a fight, sensors always are sensing, you don't know when your enemy is going to attack. Karin didn't stop sensing Danzo. She tried to find some imbalance in Sasuke's inner chakra. That's different than sensing his presence.



> Or that sharingan doesn't have chakra vision turned on @ all times, because then Itachi wouldn't be able to see anyones face, which is wrong because we've seen through his eyes once or twice when he had sharingan activated.



It doesn't matter, Itachi won't have enough time in order to do so. ST activates too fast in order to do something. And Kakashi is an analytical fighter, he never could know when Deva was going to use ST, or he would've opted for another tactic instead of risking his comrades forcing them to take said attack.



> Itachi wasn't shown in any of the panels after Kabuto took control of Nagato
> So any argument regarding that would be pure speculation.



So Itachi saw Nagato and hid? That's not likely of him. Less likely of him dodging ST when RM Naruto couldn't.


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## Kai (Dec 20, 2013)

fior fior said:


> Itachi never tried to kill Pain, despite the fact that he knew the Paths were headed for the village (at least I assume so, knowing Itachi). If he was capable of killing Pain, he would have gone after him and put a stop to it before the village was fucking destroyed.
> 
> Canon fact: Itachi is incapable of defeating Pain.


Probably because he was dead?


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## Trojan (Dec 20, 2013)

Kai said:


> Probably because he was dead?



He was with the Akatsuki for years, he did not even kill one guy from them nor he gave konoha
any information whatsoever.


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## Garcher (Dec 20, 2013)

fior fior said:


> Itachi never tried to kill Pain, despite the fact that he knew the Paths were headed for the village (at least I assume so, knowing Itachi). If he was capable of killing Pain, he would have gone after him and put a stop to it before the village was fucking destroyed.
> 
> Canon fact: Itachi is incapable of defeating Pain.



Canon fact: Itachi solod Nagato with no diff. He completly dominated the fight. Btw, Naruto stated that Nagato is on a complete different scale than Pain.

What's the conclusion? Itachi solos this once again.


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