# MS Sasuke vs SM Jiraiya



## Skilatry (Sep 1, 2017)

Location : Samurai Bridge
Distance : 20m
Knowledge : Manga
Restrictions : None
Stipulations: Jiraiya starts in Sage Mode, Sasuke is healthy

Who wins?


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## Bonly (Sep 1, 2017)

Jiraiya can apparently sense every thing before Sasuke does anything and he can put up the perfect defense despite his lack of knowledge or he's magically gonna gain knowledge he has no way of getting. After a while of coming up with the perfect defenses Jiraiya will get Frog Song off and he'll finish off Sasuke, easy as pie.

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 3 | Winner 1


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## Gohara (Sep 1, 2017)

If it's The Kage Summit Arc Sasuke then it can go either way, otherwise Jiraiya wins in my opinion.


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## Serene Grace (Sep 1, 2017)

Jiraiya wins this.


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## Ultrafragor (Sep 2, 2017)

Itachi, with Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, wasn't sure he could beat him.

That doesn't explain why Itachi didn't make eye contact right then and there and lobotmize Jiraiya, but w/e. Kishi says


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## Troyse22 (Sep 2, 2017)

Jiraiya has sensing equal to Nagato  so he can obviously detect the buildup of chakra in Sasuke's eyes  and Jiraiya will have the perfect answer for whatever Sasuke uses even though he doesn't know for sure what's coming


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## Serene Grace (Sep 2, 2017)

^
^
^
^
 SM sensing is superior to conventiol sensing, and Jiraiya has two SM sensors on his back regardless if you rhjnm he can't sense or not, jokes on you x'D


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 2, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Jiraiya can apparently sense every thing before Sasuke does anything and he can put up the perfect defense despite his lack of knowledge or he's magically gonna gain knowledge he has no way of getting. After a while of coming up with the perfect defenses Jiraiya will get Frog Song off and he'll finish off Sasuke, easy as pie.


Dont forget he can take out a scroll, write a fire seal, and seal the fire known as amaterasu all while being on fire from said technique with no diff 

Either that or he can do all this preemptively prior to amaterasu tagging him via sensing when he hasnt shown a single sensory feat ever 

Sasukes chakra nature is also fire so he can seal sasuke up as well i guess 

Fuka hoin gg 

Its a good thing sasuke has raiton tho or else Jman could just yomi numa him as well so at least 1 gg is off the table 

OT

Sasuke destroys him

He is portrayed and stated as equal to FKS Naruto by both NARUTO AND HIMSELF an arc after pains defeat...And during pains defeat naruto was stated and shown to far surpass Jman...Due to things like Naruto facing 5 paths of pain head on while Jman claimed 3 were enough to kill him in a straight battle and ran and stalled for who knows how long before he was ready to defeat them...Something he wouldnt have been able to do in a neutral location like where naruto fought pain for instance just btw.

Breaking it all down even further

Jman cant break susanoo
Jman is never blitzing sasuke SM or no, cuz sasuke can react to V2 A speeds
Jman has no method of dealing with amaterasu or enton projectiles or defenses
Jman is in constant danger of Genjutsu...And no he cant fight blind because kabuto, a user of an entirely different form of SM than Jman possesses that was shown to possess unique abilities over toad SM, that unlike Jman Kabuto actually MASTERED, and also had several body modifications to amp his sensory abilities even further
Jmans infamous yomi numa is sharingan seal reading ggd followed up with either sasukes flying summon or raiton gg deidara style
Jman doesnt have feats that show he can deal with Susanoos offensive capabilities either...I see no reason an arrow cant tag him if Kakashi with precog couldnt make a physical reaction from several meters away and had to resort to an instant cast mental reaction defensive technique...Of which Jman has 0...Susanoo pops him like a pimple or crushes him like a bug with its physical strength as well. Point being if any of susanoos hits land...Jman isnt taking them well at all.
Jmans summons, INCLUDING MA/PA are in danger of genjutsu as well, sasuke can also counter Jmans bigger summons with aoda as he still had the snake contract prior to the war arc.
Kirin gg is also a thing, kirin downplayers beware...sasuek possesses amaterasu himself here...Prep wont be difficult at all

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 2, 2017)

3 Sage in the same spot (Elder Toads and Jiriaya) 3x SM Senses + Sensing Barrier ...

Jiraiya aint need any boss summon he can ragdoll Sasuke all over the battlefield since he starts as SM. One arm Jiraiya stood against 6pop and took one of 'em. MS Sasuke aint that tough match-up for J-Man. SM Jiraiya with mid-diff.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 2, 2017)

SM Jiraya is merely a Sannin in his ultimate mode, just like Tsunade w Byakugou and Oro w Yamata. All of them didn't have this kind of PU when they were fighting all along in the past (in Oro's case, he didn't have even snake Jutsu).

And the Sannin were surpassed by Pain Arc Naruto and KS Sasuke. 

Featwise, Jiraya can effectively counter MS Genjutsu via partner method and Amaterasu via Sage sensing after a lot of struggle (he won't have an easy time dodging it), however V3 Susano'o is simply too much for him he lacks the DC to destroys him whilst Sasuke's 3T precog track combined to Susano'o insane move speed is more than enough to handle Jiraya's danger sensing.
It's not like his level of perception come close to SM Kabuto's.

Overall, Sasuke wins with his ultimate Jutsu.


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## Android (Sep 2, 2017)

Sorry @Serene Grace
But manga portrayed MS as SM Naruto's equal.
Whom we know that he surpassed the Sannin. Kappa
New generation surpass the old Kappa

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Arles Celes (Sep 2, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> ^
> ^
> ^
> ^
> SM sensing is superior to conventiol sensing, and Jiraiya has two SM sensors on his back regardless if you rhjnm he can't sense or not, jokes on you x'D



Eh, I don't think it was stated anywhere that SM sensing can stack up. Otherwise SM Jiraiya would have sensing 3 better than SM Naruto who surpassed Jiraiya in SM. 

IMO it only gives perpetual access to SM even while moving like what Kabuto got via Juugo's cells.


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## Itachі (Sep 2, 2017)

Sasuke beats Jiraiya. He counters Jiraiya's Katon with his own, he counters Yomi Numa with Raiton, he's lethal up close due to Raiton flow / Chidori variants, he can Genjutsu Jiraiya's summons or slice them up with Eiso, etc. Susano'o is still an obstacle for Jiraiya and he's going to have a tough time with the arrows. Jiraiya can hold up for a while but imo he's gonna be put down. However, if this version of Sasuke is bloodlusted and angry then I think Jiraiya will take it. Jiraiya's a shrewd, experienced man. To go up against him bloodlusted is dangerous. If Sasuke goes in with the mindset he had against the Gokage then he's going to lose imo.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Sep 2, 2017)

Arles Celes said:


> Eh, I don't think it was stated anywhere that SM sensing can stack up. Otherwise SM Jiraiya would have sensing 3 better than SM Naruto who surpassed Jiraiya in SM.
> 
> IMO it only gives perpetual access to SM even while moving like what Kabuto got via Juugo's cells.


SM "danger/nature sensing" is superior to regular chakra sensing that Nagato displayed for example.
Would chakra sensing allow Naruto to do what he did against the third Raikage ?
Huh, no.


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## The_Conqueror (Sep 2, 2017)

Problem with MS Sasuke is he never started with MS when was sane and while blood lusted was just killing himself 



Cosmos said:


> Sorry @Serene Grace
> But manga portrayed MS as SM Naruto's equal.
> Whom we know that he surpassed the Sannin. Kappa
> New generation surpass the old Kappa



you mean SM borutos Dad = Sasuke who could not even see?


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## Android (Sep 2, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Problem with MS Sasuke is he never started with MS when was sane and while blood lusted was just killing himself
> 
> 
> 
> you mean SM borutos Dad = Sasuke who could not even see?


I was just teasing Cherry 
MS Sasuke = SM Pain arc Naruto if Naruto doesn't want to push his shit in. Otherwise yeah, SM Naruto is stronger.
And Sasuke kept on getting blind whilst Naruto's SM kept on getting better and better. Lol at clowns using that as evidence.
As for the match up, I'm going with Jiraiya more times than not.
He has Frog call which can turn off susanoo.
He is far superior in CQC, and he should be able to react to the susanoo arrows. Danzo could react by sprouting a tree. Jiraiya can react by diverting the arrows with his lion mane jutsu which w/o SM boost could tear apart a summon. The arrows are fast but their penetrative force is crap as shown in the manga. Jiraiya can also block the Amaterasu with clone feints and dust clouds, and anticipate the Kirin by warping to the toad dimension.
And while the MS effects make Sasuke its bitch, Jiraiya is constantly absorbing NE to replenish his strength.
Jiraiya was portrayed capable of beating Pain and Itachi, people stronger than MS Sasuke.
Haters may not wanna admit that, but in all honesty ..... Fuck them.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Arles Celes (Sep 2, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> SM "danger/nature sensing" is superior to regular chakra sensing that Nagato displayed for example.
> Would chakra sensing allow Naruto to do what he did against the third Raikage ?
> Huh, no.



Tbh it is hard to measure Nagato's sensing as we mostly got feats of it via Itachi's telling about it and via anticipating Amaterasu.

It could be due to just having talent for it, due to his Uzumaki heritage or due to the Rinnegan.

Same with it being hard to estimate if Nagato's sensing was superior to Karin's or Minato's for example. 

But I think it is potentially possible for a person to be better at sensing than a SM users. I don't think it was ever stated that SM sensing cannot be matched or surpassed.


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## Itachі (Sep 2, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Danzo could react by sprouting a tree. Jiraiya can react by diverting the arrows with his lion mane jutsu which w/o SM boost could tear apart a summon. The arrows are fast but their penetrative force is crap as shown in the manga.



To be honest Danzo just about reacted, without Mokuton he would have been hit. He wasn't reacting comfortably or anything.



Also, just pages later Danzo had to eat a Susano'o arrow and use up an eye rather than dodge or use his Mokuton.



Let's also not forget that Kakashi thought Kamui was necessary to avoid Sasuke's Susano'o arrows.



Why do you consider it's penetrative power to be low? It pierced through Danzo's Mokuton (and the ground) without a problem and I don't recall it being walled by anything weak.



Not saying that the arrows will be the end of Jiraiya but they will pressure him for sure. I think that they will be a significant factor in the fight and I don't see J-Man dodging them every time.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Android (Sep 2, 2017)

Itachі said:


> To be honest Danzo just about reacted, without Mokuton he would have been hit. He wasn't reacting comfortably or anything.


Did he reacted ? Yes or no ?
The answer is yes. He could mentally perceive the arrows, but couldn't move physically.
Jiraiya doesn't need to move away or dodge the arrows when he can divert them away.


Itachі said:


> , just pages later Danzo had to eat a Susano'o arrow and use up an eye rather than dodge or use his Mokuton


What else would he do ? Stop, deactivate Izanagi, summon a tree and activate Izanagi again ?
Let's be real man.


Itachі said:


> Let's also not forget that Kakashi thought Kamui was necessary to avoid Sasuke's Susano'o arrows.


Again, Jiraiya doesn't need to move a damn foot to deal with the arrows.
He uses his lion mane jutsu to divert its path.
Also, Jiraiya in SM is faster than Kakashi anyway.


Itachі said:


> Why do you consider it's penetrative power to be low? It pierced through Danzo's Mokuton (and the ground) without a problem and I don't recall it being walled by anything weak


They barely penetrated the fucking spiked rocks in Kabuto's cave 
Their best feat is penetrating a tree. And the tree was able to redirect their path and stop their momentum.


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## Bonly (Sep 2, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Dont forget he can take out a scroll, write a fire seal, and seal the fire known as amaterasu all while being on fire from said technique with no diff
> 
> Either that or he can do all this preemptively prior to amaterasu tagging him via sensing when he hasnt shown a single sensory feat ever
> 
> ...



True I forgot Jiraiya can within stand the pain long enough to get Ama off of him, that's a great point! Although Jiraiya wouldn't even get tagged by it despite better Sage sensors failing to do the same because Jiraiya is just that great!

Reactions: Like 2


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## Serene Grace (Sep 2, 2017)

Uchiha fans bringing up trasheratsu as if its doing shit in this matchup, roflz 



Sapherosth said:


> Yet those two SM sensors failed to sense anything whatsoever and J man actually got fucked because of it.


How many times to I have to educate you little boy? Jiraiya and pa+ma had their _guard down son_, obviously they didn't sense the paths ambush. You have no basis to suggest they can't sense in a battle situation, absolutely none you can say Jiraiya doesn't have sensing, I dont care but Ma and pa? Nah that's bullshit.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Monty Burns (Sep 2, 2017)

Zetsu stated Naruto > Sasuke. Naruto said they'll both die together because he always holds back.

OT: Jiraiya wins high diff. @Cosmos pretty much explained why.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## hbcaptain (Sep 2, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> Zetsu stated Naruto > Sasuke. Naruto said they'll both die together because he always holds back.


Before Kage Summit. 



> Naruto said they'll both die together because he always holds back.


How would they *both *die without Naruto aiming for Sasuke's death. 
Furthermore, DB2 :
_Loneliness ends in the loss of hope! To protect his friend, *Naruto releases all of his strength!*_

Reactions: Funny 1 | Creative 1


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## Serene Grace (Sep 2, 2017)

Sigh Sasuke fans and this huge superiority complex they have



hbcaptain said:


> Before Kage Summit.


Which is better since his ass almost went blind during it, face it Sasuke ain't nothing but a bat going blind without Itachi's eyes


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## Monty Burns (Sep 2, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Yet those two SM sensors failed to sense anything whatsoever and J man actually got fucked because of it


Why would they actively sense in a non combat situation? That's like saying every sensor actively senses when they're taking a shit.



hbcaptain said:


> Before Kage Summit.
> 
> 
> How would they *both *die without Naruto aiming for Sasuke's death.
> ...


This is like when people said Naruto + Sasuke are both equal because they both lost their arms.

Naruto holding back = both dying.
Naruto not holding back = Naruto owns.
Anyway Naruto by feats would own this version of Sasuke.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Sep 2, 2017)

Jiraiya wins for the same reasons he wins against itachi.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 2, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> Why would they actively sense in a non combat situation? That's like saying every sensor actively senses when they're taking a shit.
> 
> 
> This is like when people said Naruto + Sasuke are both equal because they both lost their arms.
> ...


Both of them dying = Naruto aiming for the kill, Sasuke can't die if Naruto was aiming for the capture or wattever.
Furthermore DB2 alraedy explained that Naruto uses his Full strengh against Sasuke, so are you going to contradict DB ?



> Anyway Naruto by feats would own this version of Sasuke


This is pretty subjective.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (Sep 2, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> Uchiha fans bringing up trasheratsu as if its doing shit in this matchup, roflz
> 
> 
> How many times to I have to educate you little boy? Jiraiya and pa+ma had their _guard down son_, obviously they didn't sense the paths ambush. You have no basis to suggest they can't sense in a battle situation, absolutely none you can say Jiraiya doesn't have sensing, I dont care but Ma and pa? Nah that's bullshit.




Lmfao. Before trying to "educate" someone, it would be wise to get your own facts right before making a fool out of yourself.


Last time I checked SM sensing was auto and not one that has to be actively activated like say...Minato's sensing? 



Monty Burns said:


> Why would they actively sense in a non combat situation? That's like saying every sensor actively senses when they're taking a shit.
> 
> 
> This is like when people said Naruto + Sasuke are both equal because they both lost their arms.
> ...




Read above.


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## Bonly (Sep 2, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> Anyway Naruto by feats would own this version of Sasuke.



How would Pre War arc Naruto own MS Sasuke? Are you perhaps referring to the blind Sasuke that couldn't keep up Susanoo?


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## hbcaptain (Sep 2, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> Sigh Sasuke fans and this huge superiority complex they have
> 
> 
> Which is better since his ass almost went blind during it, face it Sasuke ain't nothing but a bat going blind without Itachi's eyes


Which only means, nearly blind KS Sasuke w V4 Susano'o + Enton + Ama> pre KS Sasuke with Ama only. 
Moreover Itachi was also nearly blind against Sasuke, not only blind, he was even sick yet he used a lot of MS techniques and fought Sasuke just well

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Sep 2, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Moreover Itachi was also nearly blind against Sasuke, not only blind, he was even sick yet he used a lot of MS techniques and fought Sasuke just well


...Whats your point? Its pretty much accepted that Hebi Sasuke is fodder to serious Itachi, what does this have to do with Sasuke fighting someone who is near his level if not superior to him? Dumb analogy, still doesn't change the fact that MS Sasuke is just a bat waiting to be blind without Itachi's eyes.



Sapherosth said:


> Lmfao. Before trying to "educate" someone, it would be wise to get your own facts right before making a fool out of yourself.


What "facts" did you have though? I'm interested.



Sapherosth said:


> Last time I checked SM sensing was auto and not one that has to be actively activated like say...Minato's sensing?


I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, as you were always the one that said SM sensing requires focus, why a sudden change of heart when we start talking about Jiraiya? Sigh hypocrisy


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## hbcaptain (Sep 2, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> ...Whats your point? Its pretty much accepted that Hebi Sasuke is fodder to serious Itachi, what does this have to do with Sasuke fighting someone who is near his level if not superior to him? Dumb analogy, still doesn't change the fact that MS Sasuke is just a bat waiting to be blind without Itachi's eyes


It was portrayed Sasuke with dimished sight is KS Naruto's equal and that's it. The manga was pretty clear.
Also pre KS Sasuke <<<< post KS Sasuke.


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## Turrin (Sep 2, 2017)

Honestly it would depend on the scenario, and how the fight played out.  Naruto is able to draw with MS-Sasuke due to Sage-Mode, this is likely because Sage-Mode sensing would allow Naruto to anticipate Sasuke's usage of Mangekyo-Sharingan and utilizes the right Senpo Techniques to defend them through creating clone feints, blocking LOS, and summoning Fusaku and Shima who can potentially use sound based techniques; I say this because we saw all these similar tactics work against Mangekyo-Sharingan in the Kabuto battle, so we know this stuff works. Yes Kabuto is stronger then Naruto (or Jiraiya), but EMS-Sasuke + Itachi are stronger then MS-Sasuke too. Anyway Jiraiya can use all of these tactics too in Sage-Mode, and yes he can use Sensing the Data-book says he can use Kawazu Kumite which relies on percision sensing to be utilized, so get over it, and even if he could not he has 2 more advanced Sages (Ma & Pa) that can sitting on his shoulders, so ether way the same tactics will work for him.

However the main difference between Naruto and Jiraiya, is the following. Naruto can enter Sage-Mode quicker and he tends to do so more freely. Like how he quickly entered Sage-Mode before going to confront Sasuke in the Kages arc. However Naruto can't maintain Sage-Mode for very long. While Jiraiya is the reverse, he takes longer to enter Sage-Mode and uses it less freely, but when he does he can maintain Sage Mode for the entire battle. 

So that's why I say scenario matters here. If Sasuke rages out and goes for Mangekyo early on like we saw him do towards the end of the Kages arc, because he's still on Avengers high when he confronts Jiriaya, then Jiriaya will probably loose, because he will be overwhelmed by Susano'o and Enton before he gets a chance to enter Sage-Mode. Naruto on the other hand being able to enter Sage-Mode quicker would likely be able to enter in time to respond to these moves. 

However if Sasuke fights like he normally does and starts with Kenjutsu and Raiton first, then Jiraiya will likely enter Sage-Mode, at which point I see Jiraiya winning the fight. I say this because Naruto probably draws with Sasuke due to the fact that both him and sasuke will have points in the match where they will need to recover after using Mangekyo and Sage Mode for certain duration, while Jiriaya won't, and will be able to capitalize on those instances to overwhelm Sasuke and defeat him.

So I'd say in most situations Jiraiya wins with High / Extreme Diff, but given the right conditions Sasuke can win as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Sep 2, 2017)

Turrin said:


> Honestly it would depend on the scenario, and how the fight played out.  Naruto is able to draw with MS-Sasuke due to Sage-Mode, this is likely because Sage-Mode sensing would allow Naruto to anticipate Sasuke's usage of Mangekyo-Sharingan and utilizes the right Senpo Techniques to defend them through creating clone feints, blocking LOS, and summoning Fusaku and Shima who can potentially use sound based techniques; I say this because we saw all these similar tactics work against Mangekyo-Sharingan in the Kabuto battle, so we know this stuff works. Yes Kabuto is stronger then Naruto (or Jiraiya), but EMS-Sasuke + Itachi are stronger then MS-Sasuke too. Anyway Jiraiya can use all of these tactics too in Sage-Mode, and yes he can use Sensing the Data-book says he can use Kawazu Kumite which relies on percision sensing to be utilized, so get over it, and even if he could not he has 2 more advanced Sages (Ma & Pa) that can sitting on his shoulders, so ether way the same tactics will work for him.
> 
> However the main difference between Naruto and Jiraiya, is the following. Naruto can enter Sage-Mode quicker and he tends to do so more freely. Like how he quickly entered Sage-Mode before going to confront Sasuke in the Kages arc. However Naruto can't maintain Sage-Mode for very long. While Jiraiya is the reverse, he takes longer to enter Sage-Mode and uses it less freely, but when he does he can maintain Sage Mode for the entire battle.
> 
> ...


Jiraiya starts in SM here though


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## Blu-ray (Sep 2, 2017)

Sasuke shouldn't have more than moderate difficulty since he has answers to the majority of Jiraiya's arsenal. He can either control Jiraiya's summons or burn them down with Amaterasu, evade Yomi Numa by flying on his hawk or by neutralizing it with his Raiton, and can tank every offensive technique Jiraiya has with Susano'o, and it's encompassing defense will protect him even from blindsides.

Jiraiya on the other hand doesn't have many answers to Sasuke's offense. He's got nothing that can actually guard from Sasuke's liberal uses of Amaterasu and Susano'o arrows and he has no means to consistently avoid them either. About his only recourse is preemptively using LOS blockers, but he won't use those right away and those don't guarantee that Sasuke won't so much as get a glimpse at him since Pain saw Jiraiya through Pa's smokebomb.

Jiraiya's only way of putting Sasuke down is Gama Rinsho, but that's something he only pulls when everything else fails, and between its steep prep time, an unfavorable location, and Sasuke's offensive with his own poor defense in comparison, the odds of him living long enough to get to attempt it let alone pull it off are abysmal.



Cosmos said:


> They barely penetrated the fucking spiked rocks in Kabuto's cave


A purposefully weak arrow small enough to fit in Kabuto's tail with room to spare obviously isn't going to be as powerful as one large enough to gouge out Danzo's midsection. Even the first arrow he shot against Kabuto went through a rock formation despite only being slightly bigger that the one that pinned Kabuto.



Serene Grace said:


> Uchiha fans bringing up trasheratsu as if its doing shit in this matchup, roflz


Usually you list a bunch of counters instead of saying it doesn't work because reasons. Though it's not like the counters you usually give are viable anyway.

He can't take out a scroll, write up a formula, and execute the fire sealing method while _already_ on fire, and he can't, or rather _won't_ use Needle Jizo to guard from an attack he has no idea Sasuke even has and can't see coming. Only way he's not getting burned is if he stays out of Sasuke's view, something I don't think he can do for the entire fight.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Sep 2, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> Jiraiya starts in SM here though


Then he wins


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 2, 2017)

Dont know why im even gonna bother addressing this as i know before i even say anything it wont lead to anything

Guess im just bored



Cosmos said:


> MS Sasuke = SM Pain arc Naruto if Naruto doesn't want to push his shit in. Otherwise yeah, SM Naruto is stronger.


Pain arc Naruto can push MS sasukes shit in???

Not according to *naruto himself* *a full arc* later he wouldnt

And he stated he couldnt* three times over

To sasukes face several times

And again to the K11

And again to the damn elder toad sage*

But i guess we are ignoring all of that or?

Inb4 "naruto doesnt wanna kill sasuke"

Dude straight up said "we will *both die* if we fight"

How does he kill sasuke...If he doesnt kill sasuke exactly??? 



Cosmos said:


> Jiraiya was portrayed capable of beating Pain and Itachi, people stronger than MS Sasuke.


Ive seen you claim before that you believe MS Sasuke>MS itachi in the past

Im not saying you cant change your opinions

Im just saying it seems odd given what i presumed to know about you and have seen you say before

As for the pain angle...

FKS Naruto>Pain Arc Naruto, the latter of whom gave pain a much bigger run for his money than Jman ever could...And was blatantly stated to be superior to Jman regardless of his superior performance against pain...

And sasuke is portrayed as equal to FKS naruto...Who is superior to the naruto who dicked down Jmans killer...

So sasuke isnt exactly lacking in the portrayal department either


Serene Grace said:


> Uchiha fans bringing up trasheratsu as if its doing shit in this matchup, roflz


Please Grace...Do tell how Jman counters it then

Sensing with his 0 feats in the art combined with Hari Jizo of all things?

When it burned through A's V2 raiton armor?

On top of that...If Jman blocks with jizo...Now his hair is on fire with a fire he cant put out...What next?

Calling it "trasheratsu" isnt an argument Jman can use in battle either

Its odd to me how "trasheratsu" can make the fastest man alive since the yellow flash sweat

Yet it cant touch an old man with next to no impressive reaction feats

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Android (Sep 2, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> A purposefully weak arrow small enough to fit in Kabuto's tail with room to spare obviously isn't going to be as powerful as one large enough to gouge out Danzo's midsection. Even the first arrow he shot against Kabuto went through a rock formation despite only being slightly bigger that the one that pinned Kabuto


Not only you can not prove a part of this, but it's not like all the other times the arrows showed any impressive piercing force, it piercing Danzo's midsection isn't impressive, it failing to pierce more than two feet inside the bridge isn't impressive.
And it failing to fully pierce an ordinary aas rock in a cave isn't impressive. 
So its best piercing feats are still a tree and 70 y/o man geezer.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 2, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> Zetsu stated Naruto > Sasuke



And NARUTO stated Naruto=Sasuke

Who would you say is a higher authority on narutos standing?

*Naruto*? Or zetsu?

You could also at least include some context to Zetsus statement

Zetsu stated Pain arc SM naruto was likely superior to Killer Bee fight sasuke

Who went through that fight with Bee injured and with merely a panic button amaterasu under his belt

Never mind the fact FKS 3T sasuke was stated to have improved to such a degree he exceeded his previous CS2 levels of chakra and had all but mastered use of amaterasu and gained enton and not to mention susanoo

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Trojan (Sep 2, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And NARUTO stated Naruto=Sasuke
> 
> Who would you say is a higher authority on narutos standing?
> 
> ...



So, you are saying blind Sasuke = SM Naruto? 

Also, you know that Naruto does not want to kill Sasuke, right?

Reactions: Creative 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 2, 2017)

Hussain said:


> So, you are saying blind Sasuke = SM Naruto?


No

Naruto stated his full power wasnt enough to stop sasukes full power...Obviously thats what he meant

No one in their right mind would argue blind sasuke could beat a fresh naruto in a fight...At least id hope not

Naruto and sasuke have entire magical psychic conversations with each other in mere seconds relative to the outside world in which they learn everything teh other person is feeling...And you dont think that gives either of them insight into what the other is fully capable of?




Hussain said:


> Also, you know that Naruto does not want to kill Sasuke, right?


Naruto disagrees


WorldsStrongest said:


> Inb4 "naruto doesnt wanna kill sasuke"
> 
> Dude straight up said "we will *both die* if we fight"
> 
> How does he kill sasuke...If he doesnt kill sasuke exactly

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Sep 2, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Dont know why im even gonna bother addressing this as i know before i even say anything it wont lead to anything
> 
> Guess im just bored


Actually I'm the one who should be saying this, despite how multiple times I explained this to you, you still repeating the same shit 
So I'll only address this one since I'm not in the mood for a long Sasuke debate, especially not with you.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Pain arc Naruto can push MS sasukes shit in???
> 
> Not according to *naruto himself* *a full arc* later he wouldnt
> 
> ...


Inb4 B...b...but Naruto said they would both die.

Naruto, never once said they're equal, what he said is that he thinks if he and Sasuke were to fight, they would both die.
We all know Naruto hasn't ever fought Sasuke with full KI.
He just doesn't want to kill his girlfriend.
Manga shoved this fact down our throats multiple times.
So that statement only apply to a Naruto who is going to hold back.
Got it ?
The only direct comparison to their strength was made by Zetsu, in which he said Naruto was stronger now, a statement Sasuke couldn't refute.
Now what happened after that ?
Sasuke kept losing his eye sight.
While Naruto kept getting stronger with sage mode, showing more/better feats in the war.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Dude straight up said "we will *both die* if we fight"


Which we now know was BS because they did fight in the manga, on a far far faaaaar larger scale and they *DID NOT DIE *

Speaking of which, we saw in that fight how Naruto flat out says he doesn't want to kill his friend. A statement backed up by non other than Sasuke himself.
Surely you won't disagree with BOTH Naruto and Sasuke now would you ?
Inb4 b...b...but Naruto used AA ....


WorldsStrongest said:


> Ive seen you claim before that you believe MS Sasuke>MS itachi in the past
> 
> Im not saying you cant change your opinions
> 
> Im just saying it seems odd given what i presumed to know about you and have seen you say before


I changed my opinion in that match up a long time ago if you could actually check out my posting history.


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## Trojan (Sep 2, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> 
> Naruto stated his full power wasnt enough to stop sasukes full power...Obviously thats what he meant
> 
> ...



- No he did not. That was a wrong translation. 
- Well, at the end of the Kage arc Sasuke was more or less blind tho. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Naruto disagrees


No he does not. 
At no point in the entire manga has Naruto ever even "thought" of killing Sasuke. 
What he is talking about is exactly what happened at the VOTE2. Where he will only counter-balance Sasuke's attack till the end.
Even the "we will both die" came in both of them getting their hands chopped off and almost bleeding to death. Not that he will physically kill him.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 2, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Not only you can not prove a part of this,


Prove what? That he wasn't trying to kill Kabuto and that he was trying to kill Danzo? Cause the former was stated and the latter is kinda self evident. Or prove the arrow he used against Kabuto was far smaller and weaker than the one he used against Danzo? Because you can see as much by simply looking at them.



> but it's not like all the other times the arrows showed any impressive piercing force, it piercing Danzo's midsection isn't impressive, it failing to pierce more than two feet inside the bridge isn't impressive.
> And it failing to fully pierce an ordinary aas rock in a cave isn't impressive.
> So its best piercing feats are still a tree and 70 y/o man geezer.


Getting lodged within the rock formation without coming out the other side would be failing to fully pierce. But as you can see, it's quite capable of doing that, even with it's power scaled back. Besides, I'm not sure how terribly impressive it needs to be to skewer a man who was impaled by Pain's black receiver.


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## Serene Grace (Sep 2, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> Usually you list a bunch of counters instead of saying it doesn't work because reasons.


Too lazy to do any of that atm, links are also fucked up so there's that I guess



Blu-ray said:


> Though it's not like the counters you usually give are viable anyway.


Which is your opinion lol, not like anyone here has countered it anyways



Blu-ray said:


> He can't take out a scroll, write up a formula, and execute the fire sealing method while _already_ on fire


Ma and pa can that for him, he doesn't have to pu out the scroll, regardless I've already stated that this is his worst method of counter trashartsu.



Blu-ray said:


> or rather _won't_ use Needle Jizo to guard from an attack he has no idea Sasuke even has and can't see coming.


Lel Jiraiya doesn't need to use Needle Jizo to counter Amaterasu nor does he need to know Sasuke has that exact ability. Once he senses a giant build up of chakra coming from Sasuke's Dojutsu, he'll quickly block the LOS whether it be clones, or a dust cloud Jiraiya obviously has his methods.



Blu-ray said:


> Only way he's not getting burned is if he stays out of Sasuke's view, something I don't think he can do for the entire fight.


Or he just senses the build up and erects a LOS blocking defense to counter it, and that.

Anyways too tired to debate this for too long


WorldsStrongest said:


> Please Grace...Do tell how Jman counters it then


Senses the build up of amaterasu --> blocks Sasuke's LOS with Clones or a dust cloud 

Easy moving on 

Inb4 Jiraiya doesn't have sensing because he didn't sense pein in a non combat situation, or that Ma or Pa can't sense roflz.



WorldsStrongest said:


> When it burned through A's V2 raiton armor?


If it "burning" through Ay's armor makes It so strong, why didn't Ay feel jack shit the whole time it was burning

Anyways 

Didn't do jack to Karins shirt

Didn't do jack to fodder samurai armor 

Didn't instantly do shit to a tired base Naruto

Didn't instantly do shit to Madara's armors



WorldsStrongest said:


> On top of that...If Jman blocks with jizo...Now his hair is on fire with a fire he cant put out...What next?


You know he can control the shape and size meaning he can _shed_ the hair right



WorldsStrongest said:


> Its odd to me how "trasheratsu" can make the fastest man alive since the yellow flash sweat


>Makes him
>Never knew that shit was even burning until he say it on his hand burning
>forgets that same amaterasu that was fired at the Raikage landed on fodder samurai and didn't to anything 


Lel Amaterasu

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## The_Conqueror (Sep 2, 2017)

Borutos dad was always been holding in a fight 

Fight 1 VOTE Borutos dad did not summons bunta

FIght 2 after danzo Fight Sasuke: Borutos dad uses simple rasengan instead of higher variants. Sasuke was no where in condition to fight a SM user there.

Fight 3 VOTE: .....


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 2, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Actually this line should be mine, I don't know why do I even keep bothering myself with replying to a delusional who has a major problem following what the manga says.


>Says i have a major problem ignoring what the manga says
>Is blatantly ignoring what the manga has his favorite character ram down our throats THRICE OVER to 3 differnt groups of people
>Still thinks it should be his line

I smell irony


Cosmos said:


> Inb4 B...b...but Naruto said they would both die.


Cute but youre actually not Inb4

I posted before you 


Cosmos said:


> Naruto, never once said they're equal, what he said is that he thinks if he and Sasuke were to fight, they would both die.


Apparently a mutual death now doesnt mean the combatants are equal

And naruto blatantly saying he cant beat MS sasuke with his current power and needing kuramas power to beat him to the toad sages also means nothing i suppose


Cosmos said:


> The only direct comparison to their strength was made by Zetsu


Let me ftfy

This quote should read...

"the only direct comparison in the manga of their strength was made by zetsu regarding a mastered SM naruto stacked up against an injured rookie MS sasuke from an entire arc ago"


Cosmos said:


> Now what happened after that ?
> Sasuke kept losing his eye sight.
> While Naruto kept getting stronger with sage mode


And also...Its funny how you just glaze over exactly WHY sasuke was losing is eyesight...Because his eye powers were getting STRONGER 

Naruto on the other hand got his ass kicked by Karui and then walked to the iron country yet somehow he is teh one who got stronger and not sasuke?

He stayed stagnant at his killer bee level?

Smells fishy to me



Cosmos said:


> showing more/better feats in the war.


Ah

I see

You are giving a version of naruto feats he attained way later in the manga after training to domesticate teh strongest bijus chakra

I see why you would arrive at the conclusion now

Too bad it has 0 bearing on his statement he made in the FKS arc...Cuz...He improved over about 60 chapters give or take...



Cosmos said:


> Which we now know was BS because they did fight in the manga, on a far far faaaaar larger scale and they *DID NOT DIE *


The funny thing is they both wold have if it wasnt for sakura of all people

They either would have bled to death or starved to death had sakura and kakashi not arrived

And also...You are comparing different circumstances here and trying to make tehm teh same

In the VOTE2 fight naruto was stronger than sasuke

Had they fought during the FKS at peak power this wouldnt have been the case...Stated by naruto...Several times...Both during his meeting with sasuke and well after it...

If SM naruto believed he could beat MS sasuke he wouldnt have tried to gain conrol of the most powerful biju in preparation for his next fight with sasuke now would he?

Cuz he stated this as well

"I need the nine tails power to defeat sasuke"

Direct goddamn quote



Cosmos said:


> Speaking of which, we saw in that fight how Naruto flat out says he doesn't want to kill his friend. A statement backed up by non other than Sasuke himself.
> Surely you won't disagree with BOTH Naruto and Sasuke now would you ?
> Inb4 b...b...but Naruto used AA ....


Sasuke blatantly calls naruto out when he uses AA for finally having the stones to try to kill him...He didnt look at AA and still say "how dare you hold back" for the umpteenth time

You can "inb4" all you want

Its what happened


Cosmos said:


> I changed my opinion in that match up a long time ago if you could actually check out my posting history.


Yeah ill just get right on that as opposed to asking you about it directly

Anywho im done now

You dont wanna get into it and i already stated i didnt wanna either but bent to the urge out of boredom

Debating is also kinda lackluster for me without the use of scans anyway



Hussain said:


> - No he did not. That was a wrong translation.
> - Well, at the end of the Kage arc Sasuke was more or less blind tho.



"We will both die" isnt a mistranslation
Cute smokecreen but sasuek fought several Kage+ level threats while going blind throughout the kage arc...As that was essentially his entire role in the arc
He is also healthy with full eyesight in this tread so that means jack squat



Hussain said:


> No he does not.


Yes he really, sincerely does hussain

Dont know what else to say about this

Naruto says it to sasukes face, several times...

He says it again to the K11

And he says it to the toad sages...


Hussain said:


> Even the "we will both die" came in both of them getting their hands chopped off and almost bleeding to death. Not that he will physically kill him.


So sasuke dying due to injuries inflicted upon him by naruto =/= naruto killing sasuke...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 2, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> How would they *both *die without Naruto aiming for Sasuke's death.


That means Naruto can causaly kill him. But since Naruto aint gonna attack for instant kill that also might cause to Naruto's death.


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## Android (Sep 2, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> Prove what? That he wasn't trying to kill Kabuto and that he was trying to kill Danzo? Cause the former was stated and the latter is kinda self evident. Or prove the arrow he used against Kabuto was far smaller and weaker than the one he used against Danzo? Because you can see as much by simply looking at them.


You do know that Kishi doesn't draw the manga with a pencil in his right hand and a ruler in his left right ? So that doesn't really prove anything, especially that there's around 200 chapters between those.
Sasuke choosing not to kill Kabs means that he won't aim for a fatal organ, that's all.


Blu-ray said:


> Getting lodged within the rock formation without coming out the other side would be failing to fully pierce. But as you can see, it's quite capable of doing that


Uhm ... The arrow is still stuck inside the rock, it should've at least plowed through two or three of those spikes without loosing momentum.


Blu-ray said:


> Besides, I'm not sure how terribly impressive it needs to be to skewer a man who was impaled by Pain's black receiver.


Not my point, did you ever saw me saying Jman will tank those arrows ? 
I said he can redirect them with his SM enhanced lion mane, which in base could rip apart a summon, so I have no doubt they'd redirect those arrows with garbage ease 




Speaking of Pain's receivers, didn't we see those receivers trashing EMS Sasuke's Enton arrow ?


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## Arles Celes (Sep 2, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> That means Naruto can causaly kill him. But since Naruto aint gonna attack for instant kill that also might cause to Naruto's death.



If he is so much stronger then why he cannot just capture him and put him into prison or something?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 2, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> Senses the build up of amaterasu --> blocks Sasuke's LOS with Clones or a dust cloud


So we still give Jman feats he doesnt have i see...

Matter of fact you are giving him a feat NO SAGE has ever demonstrated...Bar JJs with RIKUDO SM of course

Jman hasnt sensed 1 thing is this entire manga

Not once

He also uses a bargain bin unmastered version of SM yet apparently that doenst come with some disadvantages in your mind

You are also assuming Jman would be fast enough to react to something that damn near tagged V2 freaking A i see...

You also assume a smoke cloud would stop flames physical manifestation i see...

Sasuke could just paint the dust cloud with black and Jman is dead either way

Its dust...Not a force field...

And clones disperse after they are hit...So sauske just makes a 2 person sized amaterasu (or a forest sized one like SICK itachi managed) and puts JMan and his clone out of their misery at the same time



Serene Grace said:


> If it "burning" through Ay's armor makes It so strong, why didn't Ay feel jack shit the whole time it was burning


Because the dude was LITERALLY stated and proved to have superhuman durability and stamina like his father?

When he withstood a technique that rips apart your body at the cellular level without any form of healing whatsoever?

In base form?


Serene Grace said:


> Anyways


Ah here comes the ever faithful downplay...Lets examine the context

I always find that helps


Serene Grace said:


> Didn't do jack to Karins shirt


Context:
Cuz sasuek put it out immediately after it tagged her...Panels after it tagged her sasuke was already extinguishing them

Dont believe me?

Check Chapter 415 pages 5-6...Id give you the links directly to save you some time but you know how thats going around her lately

She had it on her for seconds at best yet she was STILL reduced to unconsciousness...And she is an uzuzmaki...

Now lets look at something amaterasu DID do...

Made the eight tails scream like a dirty bitch...

Whats Jman got on that?



Serene Grace said:


> Didn't do jack to fodder samurai armor


Context:
Cuz the exchange lasted legit seconds yet again

In this context, we have V2 A attacking sasuek from a distance of MAYBE 20 feet...After which he tries to legdrop sasuke and is intercepted by gaara, while his siblings simultaneously save the samurai.

So...That samurai was burning for the length of time itd take V2 A...the fastest man alive...To move 20 feet at top speed and hit sasuke once

So...10 seconds?

If you REALLY wanna high ball it?

Now lets look at something amaterasu DID do...

Burnt through Jmans flame proof summoning in an instant and left him baffled




Serene Grace said:


> Didn't instantly do shit to a tired base Naruto


Thanks to the chakra of the strongest tailed beast mixed with the sage of six paths power

Base narutos power didnt do fuck against it


Serene Grace said:


> Didn't instantly do shit to Madara's armors


It doesnt need to INSTANTLY do shit to anything

Its a *fire* that *cant be extinguished*...Its gonna burn and damage over time

Wanna know something amaterasu did do tho?

Instantly did "shit" the Juubis evolved form...

Whats Jman got on that?



Serene Grace said:


> You know he can control the shape and size meaning he can _shed_ the hair right


You know he has limited hair right?

You know Amaterasu users can ALSO control the shape and size of amaterasu right?

You know they can coat an entire forest in seconds right?

You know Jman cant react in time regardless right?

You also wanna know something else Amataerasu has done?

Broke kaguyas ice when TSBs struggled to...And made her sweat the idea of traveling back to that dimension a stated by herself...

Whats Jman got on that?



Serene Grace said:


> >Makes him
> >Never knew that shit was even burning until he say it on his hand burning


Yeah he forgot about the black fire...Despite looking directly at it and making the decision to strike it and sacrifice his arm for a move that would have gotten him killed if not for gaaras intervention according to gaara himself

And despite amputating his own damn arm due to the black fire...


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## Blu-ray (Sep 2, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> Too lazy to do any of that atm, links are also fucked up so there's that I guess


Mbxx made it so only https links work, so when posting an image or linking one, just add an "s" to the "http" to make "https." A bid tedious if you're posting multiple images, but it works.



> Which is your opinion lol, not like anyone here has countered it anyways


Of course they didn't. You relegate said counters to "opinion" status and it's not like opinions can counter other opinions or be countered. That's why their called opinions and not facts. Jiraiya being incapable of doing all of those things while on fire isn't what I'd call an opinion though.



> Ma and pa can that for him, he doesn't have to pu out the scroll, regardless I've already stated that this is his worst method of counter trashartsu.


_Jiraiya_ is the one who knows the fire sealing method, not them. He has to be the one to write it up and perform it. That, and unless they've separated from him they'd also be on fire.



> Lel Jiraiya doesn't need to use Needle Jizo to counter Amaterasu nor does he need to know Sasuke has that exact ability. Once he senses a giant build up of chakra coming from Sasuke's Dojutsu, he'll quickly block the LOS whether it be clones, or a dust cloud Jiraiya obviously has his methods.
> 
> Or he just senses the build up and erects a LOS blocking defense to counter it, and that.
> 
> ...


I really don't see how it's unfair to say the man can't sense when he has literally never done so, was caught in situations a sensor would have no problem with, _and even relies on a barrier just to sense._ Sensing isn't limited to combat situations and SM sensing is passive so I'm not sure who that's an excuse.

But even if for arguments sake we say he has it, Jiraiya said with his own mouth that sensors still need to see an attack to counter it, (which is bullshit since sage's can fight blind, but proves such a level of sensing is beyond him.) He can't see Amaterasu coming, and he won't even know the nature of the technique since it's not like he has prior knowledge like Nagato and Obito does.



Cosmos said:


> You do know that Kishi doesn't draw the manga with a pencil in his right hand and a ruler in his left right ? So that doesn't really prove anything, especially that there's around 200 chapters between those.
> Sasuke choosing not to kill Kabs means that he won't aim for a fatal organ, that's all.


The man is not so inept that he cannot tell the difference between something that large and that small. It's like saying he didn't intentionally make Boruto's and Konohamaru's rasengans small but just forgot the size.

If Sasuke's intent is to pin Kabuto by the tail, then he needs to use an arrow smaller than his tail. If he used one bigger than the circumference of his tail (assuming Kabuto wouldn't just dodge) then all he'd be doing is chopping off Kabuto's tail, not pinning him in place.



> Uhm ... The arrow is still stuck inside the rock, it should've at least plowed through two or three of those spikes without loosing momentum.


It only makes sense he didn't use that much force against someone he was told to not kill, but I doubt that arrow by it's nature is going through multiple things anyway despite it's piercing power. It's tail alone makes it not built for that stuff.


> Not my point, did you ever saw me saying Jman will tank those arrows ?
> I said he can redirect them with his SM enhanced lion mane, which in base could rip apart a summon, so I have no doubt they'd redirect those arrows with garbage ease


Their penetrative power doesn't have any bearing on Lion's mane's ability to divert them or not so I didn't think that was what you were referring to (not sure how stopping a slow ass crab makes it quick enough to stop it, let alone Jiraiya himself using jutsu quick enough anyway, but w/e.)


> Speaking of Pain's receivers, didn't we see those receivers trashing EMS Sasuke's Enton arrow ?


I'm not gonna equate Pain's rods to Madara's anymore than I'm gonna equate Konohamaru's Rasengan to Minato's. The former was something no one wanted to risk touching, while Kakashi could casually grab the latter. The former (from Obito so by all means should be weaker) was holding Naruto in place with it's chain and pinning Hashirama in place while the latter couldn't stop a battleworn Naruto pointblank.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Serene Grace (Sep 2, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> So we still give Jman feats he doesnt have i see


Databook stated he can sense, and databook is> your opinion. Furthurmore Ma and Pa can sense, so either of them could easily act on Amaterasu's build up and let out a dust cloud or rather inform Jiraiya about it so he acts accordingly.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Jman hasnt sensed 1 thing is this entire manga


Hashirama hasn't sensed shit either, do you think he isn't a sensor

Regardless either ma and pa can sense so please drop this horrible point.



WorldsStrongest said:


> He also uses a bargain bin unmastered version of SM yet apparently that doenst come with some disadvantages in your mind


It does, just not the kind of disadvantages you believe it has.



WorldsStrongest said:


> You are also assuming Jman would be fast enough to react to something that damn near tagged V2 freaking A i see...


Wrong he doesn't have to be as fast as V2 Ay, he just has to be faster than Amaterasus build up, the same build up time that allowed Nagato to do a bunch of shit even being able to alert Naruto of it coming before it was released.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Because the dude was LITERALLY stated and proved to have superhuman durability and stamina like his father?


You said it _burned_ through his armor, yet he himself didn't feel anything.


WorldsStrongest said:


> She had it on her for seconds at best yet she was STILL reduced to unconsciousness...And she is an uzuzmaki...
> 
> Now lets look at something amaterasu DID do...
> 
> ...


Still doesn't change the fact that I didn't do jack shit to Karin and her shirt or is Karins shirt an Uzumaki as well?

You bring up it making the 8 tails scream like a bitch, yet forget seconds after it produced a shitty feat funny

Also seems like we're forgetting


WorldsStrongest said:


> Burnt through Jmans flame proof summoning in an instant and left him baffled


If you look before, there was a window where amaterasu was aimed, something a lot of you guys ignore. Jiraiya obviously didn't notice the weakness of the jutsu



WorldsStrongest said:


> Thanks to the chakra of the strongest tailed beast mixed with the sage of six paths power
> 
> Base naruto didnt do fuck against it


Naruto had to _react_ to the jutsu and it _landed_ on him orginally


WorldsStrongest said:


> You know he has limited hair right?


He can make more hair, it isn't only limited to the amount of hair Jiraiya has on his head lmao, unless you think the same amount of hair Jiraiya used to take down a bjuii sized summoning is the same amount of hair he has orginally.



WorldsStrongest said:


> It doesnt need to INSTANTLY do shit to anything
> 
> Its a *fire* that *cant be extinguished*...Its gonna burn and damage over time


Yes it doesif it doesn't burn through instantly then Jiraiya can just shed the hair that is coated with Amaterasu.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Wanna know something amaterasu did do tho?
> 
> Instantly did "shit" the Juubis evolved form...
> 
> Whats Jman got on that?


You mean Amaterasu powered by a bjuii sized rasenshurkien  of which is Fuuton which was outright stated to make fire burn fiercer, furthurmore this is a feat unique to EMS Sasuke, not sure what that had to do with MS Sasuke who has an Amaterasu that
>Couldn't burn Karin and did fuck shit to her shirt.
>Couldn't instantly damage a tired Base Naruto
>Couldn't burn a fodder Samurai's armor. >Couldn't damage a armorless Madara. >Could be deflected by chakra stakes.



WorldsStrongest said:


> You know they can coat an entire forest in seconds right?


And Jiraiya can release the hair in seconds, like a tired base Naruto released his cloak in seconds



WorldsStrongest said:


> You know he cant react in time regardless right?


Roflz says who? Should I post the scan of Nagato doing a bunch of shit even warning Naruto and bee about Ama before it left? Lol yes he can react



WorldsStrongest said:


> Broke kaguyas ice when TSBs struggled to...And made her sweat the idea of traveling back to that dimension a stated by herself...


So you:

Used an instance where Amaterasu a fucking fire technique was used on a fucking _*ice*_ dimension and was suprised that Amaterasu burned through it? Even went the extent to use a feat that rinnegan Sasuke accomplished as if that holds merit in a fight that only has MS Sasuke in it?



I'm done bruh

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Blu-ray (Sep 2, 2017)

Also I'm not sure why this is a Naruto vs Sasuke thread now.


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## Android (Sep 2, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> The man is not so inept that he cannot tell the difference between something that large and that small. It's like saying he didn't intentionally make Boruto's and Konohamaru's rasengans small but just forgot the size.


He made Boruto and Konohamaru's Rasengan smaller compared to Naruto and Minato's you mean.
Here we're talking about the exact same jitsu being used by the same person.
The guy just doesn't give a darn about scales, plain and simple. 
For example, the size of Naruto in relative to his BM avatar kept on changing multiple times in a single chapter, some times Kurama's head appears to be hundreds of times larger than Naruto, sometimes ... Barely big enough to fit inside his mouth.
Surely you don't think Naruto was adjusting the size of his BM avatar  


Blu-ray said:


> It only makes sense he didn't use that much force against someone he was told to not kill, but I doubt that arrow by it's nature is going through multiple things anyway despite it's piercing power. It's tail alone makes it not built for that stuff.


Are you telling me that an arrow fired with that "adjusted" speed won't kill Kabuto if it pierced his head ?
B-ray please ... 
If he doesn't want to kill Kabs, he won't aim at a fatal organ, that's all.
Are you saying that it's tail won't allow it to pierce a wall of butter ?
Don't give me excuses man, just admit that the arrows are lacking in terms of piercing power 


Blu-ray said:


> Their penetrative power doesn't have any bearing on Lion's mane's ability to divert them or not so I didn't think that was what you were referring to


Did you had a bad day B-ray ? 
The whole time I've been talking about the lion mane diverting the arrows. It's in the very first post you quoted 


Blu-ray said:


> (not sure how stopping a slow ass crab makes it quick enough to stop it, let alone Jiraiya himself using jutsu quick enough anyway, but w/e.)


The casting speed isn't an issue seeing as even Danzo could think twice and summon a tree to stop the arrow, so I doubt that SM Jiraiya won't be able to make one hand seal to protect himself.

And the point why I brought up the crab was to show the toughness of the jutsu in base. So SM will obviously make it even tougher.
Not that the crab was fast 


Blu-ray said:


> I'm not gonna equate Pain's rods to Madara's anymore than I'm gonna equate Konohamaru's Rasengan to Minato's.


What a weird ass comparison.
The black receivers are all made from the same substance, they are all manifested from the Rinnegan, there is no difference.
Only difference is how can the user control them.

Also those arrows were fired from a half dead Obito, not Madara 


Blu-ray said:


> The former was something no one wanted to risk touching, while Kakashi could casually grab the latter. The former (from Obito so by all means should be weaker) was holding Naruto in place with it's chain and pinning Hashirama in place while the latter couldn't stop a battleworn Naruto pointblank.


All of which has fuck all to do with the hardness of the rods, but rather who is controlling them.
And Naruto could actually grab Obito's arrows despite being combined with Bijū chakra suppressing chains. He was pinned to the ground by them before, but could overpower them later after Nagato pretty much consumed most of his life and energy fighting the village.

Pretty sure Madara (the original weilder of the Rinnegan) can control his rods better than an emaciated half dead Nagato. Now does this prove that the arrows differ in terms of solidness and hardness ?
Not really

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


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## Blu-ray (Sep 2, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> He made Boruto and Konohamaru's Rasengan smaller compared to Naruto and Minato's you mean.
> Here we're talking about the exact same jitsu being used by the same person.
> The guy just doesn't give a darn about scales, plain and simple.
> For example, the size of Naruto in relative to his BM avatar kept on changing multiple times in a single chapter, some times Kurama's head appears to be hundreds of times larger than Naruto, sometimes ... Barely big enough to fit inside his mouth.
> Surely you don't think Naruto was adjusting the size of his BM avatar


Or maybe Sasuke can control the size of his arrows. Not sure why that's so absurd. A Susano'o arrow isn't so big that Kishi would lose track of how to scale it to _that _extent, and the same jutsu used by the same person doesn't have to have the same amount of power, otherwise Jiraiya would not have been capable of scaling back his rasengan to gently knock out fodder.



> Are you telling me that an arrow fired with that "adjusted" speed won't kill Kabuto if it pierced his head ?
> B-ray please ...
> If he doesn't want to kill Kabs, he won't aim at a fatal organ, that's all.


I didn't say anything about speed but size.



> Are you saying that it's tail won't allow it to pierce a wall of butter ?


Pierce? No. That giant, round blunt end that's far bigger than any hole the arrows tip would make means it's not "piercing" through anything.



> Don't give me excuses man, just admit that the arrows are lacking in terms of piercing power


You've ignored the blatant size differences as inconsistencies and want to confined it to a low end feat when Sasuke was holding back. I'm not the one making excuses.



> Did you had a bad day B-ray ?
> The whole time I've been talking about the lion mane diverting the arrows. It's in the very first post you quoted


I'm aware and that has nothing to do with me saying that the arrows penetrative force has nothing to do with Lion's mane's ability to divert it or not.



> The casting speed isn't an issue seeing as even Danzo could think twice and summon a tree to stop the arrow, so I doubt that SM Jiraiya won't be able to make one hand seal to protect himself.


I doubt Jiraiya can act faster than Danzo can think.



> And the point why I brought up the crab was to show the toughness of the jutsu in base. So SM will obviously make it even tougher.
> Not that the crab was fast


My point is that the Lion's Mane needs speed, and wrapping up a giant near immobile target in no way implies it has such speed.



> What a weird ass comparison.
> 
> The black receivers are all made from the same substance, they are all manifested from the Rinnegan, there is no difference.
> Only difference is how can the user control them. And Naruto could actually grab Obito's arrows despite being combined with Bijū chakra suppressing chains. He was pinned to the ground by them before, but could overpower them later after Nagato pretty much consumed most of his life and energy fighting the village.
> ...


Those rods aren't some independent object likes Gaara's sand but something they make, just like any other ninjutsu. You might as well be arguing that all Susano'o are the same and the only difference is how they're used.

It it was Madara's. Obito's entire right side going dark and the black rods emerging was all a result of Madara trying to forcefully control Obito's body and Madara not wanting Sasuke to kill Obito to prevent his revival.


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## Itachі (Sep 2, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Did he reacted ? Yes or no ?
> The answer is yes. He could mentally perceive the arrows, but couldn't move physically.
> Jiraiya doesn't need to move away or dodge the arrows when he can divert them away.



True, but I'm saying that Danzo was not reacting comfortably to it.



> What else would he do ? Stop, deactivate Izanagi, summon a tree and activate Izanagi again ?
> Let's be real man.



He didn't weave any signs when using Mokuton before, why couldn't he just use his Mokuton again?



> Again, Jiraiya doesn't need to move a damn foot to deal with the arrows.
> He uses his lion mane jutsu to divert its path.
> Also, Jiraiya in SM is faster than Kakashi anyway.



True, but again I'm not saying that Jiraiya can't deal with them. Just that he won't find it easy.



> They barely penetrated the fucking spiked rocks in Kabuto's cave
> Their best feat is penetrating a tree. And the tree was able to redirect their path and stop their momentum.



They penetrated Mokuton and pierced the bridge underneath, I'd say it's downplaying to call it a 'tree'.

To me it looks like it went straight through. How is that 'barely penetrating'?


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## Android (Sep 2, 2017)

Itachі said:


> True, but I'm saying that Danzo was not reacting comfortably to it.


You've yet to actually explain where are you trying to get with this.


Itachі said:


> He didn't weave any signs when using Mokuton before, why couldn't he just use his Mokuton again?


Dude, he was under Izanagi effects, he was completely immortal.


Itachі said:


> True, but again I'm not saying that Jiraiya can't deal with them. Just that he won't find it easy.


If he can deal with the arrows easier than Danzo or Kakashi, then he's fine.
He wouldn't be on the ground panting like Kakashi was, or constantly losing chakra like with Danzo.


Itachі said:


> They penetrated Mokuton and pierced the bridge underneath, I'd say it's downplaying to call it a 'tree'.


Lol Mokuton. It's a trash tier Mokuton. 
Minato with no arms and with a Kunai in his mouth was ripping of the Shinjū's Jūkai Koutan branches that were holding the IT victims.
So "lol Mokuton" isn't really an argument.
This is how it is, a tree could easily redirect its path and stop its momentum. We have a hair jutsu that could rip apart a boss summon in a second, now it's powered up by SM.
Arrows won't give Jiraiya a problem.


Itachі said:


> To me it looks like it went straight through. How is that 'barely penetrating'?


2/3 of the length of that arrow couldn't go through that jagged rock.
An ordinary rock.
Yeah, that's not impressive.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Monty Burns (Sep 2, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> Hashirama hasn't sensed shit either, do you think he isn't a sensor


He doesn't need any feats because he's Hashirama. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> He also uses a bargain bin unmastered version of SM yet apparently that doenst come with some disadvantages in your mind


Might be imperfect but his Sage Mode does have its own benefits. He can partially transform into a frog and leap huge distances really fast.



WorldsStrongest said:


> You are also assuming Jman would be fast enough to react to something that damn near tagged V2 freaking A i see...


Well they can create huge dust clouds to obscure his vision. He can also create clones. COR is also a viable counter since standard base Rasengans have cleared away regular Katons. Not only will it protect his body, but it will blow away the flames, and he can form it nigh instantly.

A lot of people think Jiraiya will just form a dust cloud/smoke bombs and just stand there hoping it prevents Amaterasu. He can shoot off Kebari Senbon, Lions Mane, Goemon, Zessenzan, Zessenbaku, attempt to strike him quickly with a Rasengan using partial frog transformations, Yomi Numa, Frog Call, prep clones and use them in conjuction with Gamadaira to catch Sasuke by surprise, attempt to force CQC etc...

Now onto Susanoo. Yomi Numa + FCD + Frog Call directly shuts it down. 

This Jiraiya downplay though.


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## Itachі (Sep 2, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> You've yet to actually explain where are you trying to get with this.



I think I've made myself clear. I don't think it's as simple as "Danzo reacted to this, therefore Jiraiya can" as Jiraiya will not be able to dodge it or avoid it with ease. It's not something he can just casually brush off, it's something which will keep him on his toes and pressure him.



> Dude, he was under Izanagi effects, he was completely immortal.



He hadn't finished the seals/activation yet, notice the 'Ping' and the seal before the arrow hit him. So why would he choose to waste one of his eyes instead of using his Mokuton to redirect the arrow? He used Mokuton without seals before so I don't see why he wouldn't be able to do it then. The simple answer in my eyes it's that he wasn't able to react in time to use Mokuton.



> Lol Mokuton. It's a trash tier Mokuton.
> Minato with no arms and with a Kunai in his mouth was ripping of the Shinjū's Jūkai Koutan branches that were holding the IT victims.
> So "lol Mokuton" isn't really an argument.
> This is how it is, a tree could easily redirect its path and stop its momentum. We have a hair jutsu that could rip apart a boss summon in a second, now it's powered up by SM.
> ...



I didn't use 'lol mokuton' as an argument, I'm saying that it's disingenuous to say it's a 'tree'. I'm simply asking you why you think the arrow's penetration is 'crap'. I never said it was great or had good feats, _you _were the one who said it had crap feats. To me it's just average in terms of penetration, neither remarkable or especially bad. You said the penetration is poor so I'm asking you why you think that.

Jiraiya grabbed the summon with his Jutsu, tightened his grip and then crushed it. It didn't seem instant to me, it seemed like it took 5 seconds at least. If it really was that quick then it would have been portrayed that way.



I also don't know what makes a 'boss summon' but I wouldn't call it particularly strong, not in the same league as Gamabunta as the like so I don't think that title means anything here. I think you're overestimating Jiraiya's feat there as well as underestimating Sasuke's Susano'o arrows.

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## Braiyan (Sep 2, 2017)

Sasuke most likely wins. He got his MS after Jiraiya died so stuff like Susano'o, Susano'o arrows and Enton are going to be a surprise for him. 

Susano'o can tank SM Jiraiya's entire arsenal not named Frog Song, whereas Frog Song takes too long to set up in this location. Toad Summons are asking to get genjutsued, skewered by Susano'o Arrows/Raiton enhanced shuriken, and Jiraiya's Katons get overpowered with Amaterasu. I don't see SM strength helping Jiraiya against Susano'o either, since he doesn't hit harder than Liger Bomb.

Ama is either going to be a oneshot, or a setup to Jiraiya's defeat if it connects with his real body. And Susano'o arrows are going to be enough of a problem to pressure Jiraiya in this location. He might be able to dodge if they're fired from far enough away, but he's not going to be doing so as casually as Kabuto. I can see a scenario where Sasuke boxes him in with Amaterasu to make death by Arrow likely. Even if Jiraiya manages to survive, all that fire would be perfect to setup Kirin, which he can't do anything about.

So yeah, I don't see what Jiraiya can really do here when Susano'o, Susano'o arrows and Amaterasu can shut down his entire arsenal.

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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 3, 2017)

Jiriaya's sennin mode is imperfect when he use it alone and even then Fukasaku call him as "one of the best" in terms of senjutsu.

Jiraiya with Elder Toads its a total - full package Sennin. Read databooks and fukasaku's lines. And same Fukasaku said "Naruto is good but he only mastered/ learned fundamentals he is not complete" .

So stop saying Jiraiya to imperfect and calling Naruto perfect.. there is no such thing as "imperfect" and "perfect" between Naruto and Jiraiya. 

Besides otsutsukis and RSM users only perfect sages are Fukasaku, Shima and Hashirama and probably Adult Toad Sage Naruto.  (Kabuto stole a lot of DNA, body part and jutsu thats why he is not a pure senjutsu user imo) .

Jiraiya aint able to show what naruto did to Pain not cuz he is imperfect... Its cuz retcon for Naruto (who is the main character) 's own good against way stronger enemy. Both Fukasaku and Databooks portrayed Jiraiya as a fine senjutsu user (with elder toads) and he able to sense, he able to use kawazu kumite.

ANd even w/o those, he was still a fair match for Pain and he has a gigantic sensing barrier. And way faster than all paths whom are dodged expandalbe FRS. (Its not a crazy fast feat but its decent) 

Stop lowballing sennin mode.. You have to understand difference between earlier arcs and later. Power level climbing and p-ups. 


Braiyan said:


> Susano'o can tank SM Jiraiya's entire arsenal not named Frog Song


Multiple SCORs are way better than Mei's acid fog or Raikage's backhand bitch slap or Danzo's despereate wind release.

Yomi Numa can make Susano  sink, Yatai Kuzushi can pound. Even Hairs (which is bested boss summon size animal with tough shell) could do much things. 

Multiple Senpo Goemons !? .. Jiraiya faced against a dude that can absorb his jutsus .. Sasuke aint that guy.. And Jiraiya now can show his entire arsenal. Which is versatile and effective enough to make Jiraiya victor against Cerberus while his hands are tie !

MS Sasuke's susano aint has that type of "invincible" effect (He aint no yata or totsuga or V4 or PS) ... 

Even senpo enchanced Gamayu Endan with 3 Boss Summons would be devastating ... 

Plus there is another sound base attacks of elder toads way faster / quicker than Gama Rinsho that could make Sasuke dizzy 

So nope his Susano cant block everything. And it never did (MS Susano) per canon.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 3, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> Databook stated he can sense, and databook is> your opinion


Its not my opinion...Jman hasnt sensed anything in this manga...Thats fact

Look it up

Also...The Databook

Thats cute

I guess since Databook>Opinion (and what the manga shows us while we are at it)

Sasuke, Kakashi, or Indra cant use PS
Madara cant use any from of SM
Madara cant use izanagi
Madara cant use CT
Mu cant use suiton
Danzo cant summon
*Part 1 Naruto is as fast as Part 1 Hiruzen (my personal favorite)*
Kurenai is just as good in genjutsu as Itachi

I could go on

Not to mention as @Blu-ray pointed out to you Jman who was in SM at the time just btw

Stated a sensor is supposed to see an attack before they would logically be capable of reacting to it...

Why would he say that when he himself supposedly can preemptively sense danger passively?



Serene Grace said:


> Hashirama hasn't sensed shit either, do you think he isn't a sensor


Hashirama has sensed shit tho

Which makes him a damn sight better off than Jman for sure

He was capable of accurately gauging the amount of chakra BM naruto handed out to the entire SA

He also detected that obito had traces of madaras chakra in him while undergoing the JJ ritual from a massive distance outside the kage barrier...While he just so happened to be in SM...

Coincidence?



Serene Grace said:


> Regardless either ma and pa can sense so please drop this horrible point.


Like they sensed asura path for Jman?

And what exactly are their sensory feats outside of that absolute gem?

Sensing isnt some all powerful impenetrable defensive barrier especially in the hands of a dude who has no feats with it

And btw shima in particular is listed as a sensor due to her tongue iirc...Which i doubt is gonna be useful against MS...

No matter who or what you try to fall back on here it doesnt matter

Cuz even if they could sense jutsu buildup...Something NO SAGE has EVER done before JJ OBITO then they would need to sense it, then verbally inform Jman that an arbitrary "something" they have no knowledge on is coming...To which Jman is gonna have the time to perform hand seals, and know to summon some form of defense that completely blocks his entire body? Based on nothing but "something is coming" ?

Really?

Wow


Serene Grace said:


> It does, just not the kind of disadvantages you believe it has.


Ah i see

Based on nothing

One would assume that a shitty version of SM would be shitty in all aspects of the form rather than selectively choosing its advantages and disadvantages as it suites them

Which the manga demonstrates tbh

Naruto showed better strength feats than SM Jman

And Naruto ACTUALLY SHOWED SENSORY FEATS unlike Jman

And just so happened to have been stated to be a master sage superior than Jman

Odd isnt it



Serene Grace said:


> Wrong he doesn't have to be as fast as V2 Ay


Never said he did so i dont get why you would say "wrong"

Merely pointed out it came close to tagging a dude with far greater reactions and physical speed than Jman could ever dream of

Therefore Jmans chances are non existent, or abysmal at best by comparison


Serene Grace said:


> he just has to be faster than Amaterasus build up


Which he isnt

Nor can he detect this buildup aside from some roundabout argument that somehow includes nagato...The third rikudo...Who is in another dimension of ability compared to Jman...Who despite that fact, you regularly try to give the third rikudos feats to Jman...A man with 0 sensory feats and a shit version of SM to top it off...

Yeah...


Serene Grace said:


> You said it _burned_ through his armor, yet he himself didn't feel anything.


Because of the exact thing you quoted about him having superhuman durability?

The dude doesnt feel pain like normal humans

Cuz...Ya know...He also cut off his own fucking hand and didnt flinch???


Serene Grace said:


> Still doesn't change the fact that I didn't do jack shit to Karin and her shirt or is Karins shirt an Uzumaki as well?


It actually did burn her shirt...Look again...

And it slightly burned karin as well despite the fact sasuke immediately moved to extinguish the flames on her after she was tagged...

Jman wont get the polite sasuke in battle ill tell u that


Serene Grace said:


> You bring up it making the 8 tails scream like a bitch, yet forget seconds after it produced a shitty feat funny


And you repeatedly ignore context and focus only on the low end feats for everyone* except Jman* it seems

He gets the high end feats of OTHER SHINOBI absurdely above him in every respect in arts he himself is featless in

Funny



Serene Grace said:


> If you look before, there was a window where amaterasu was aimed, something a lot of you guys ignore.


Which doesnt really matter as itachi didnt just take out the window but the entire wall the window was placed in as well as the flame proof innards Jman had coating it

A feat which still baffled Jman


Serene Grace said:


> Naruto had to _react_ to the jutsu and it _landed_ on him orginally


If it landed on him originally then he didnt react to it in a timely fashion now did he?

Jman, unlike naruto, cant manifest the most powerful bijus chakra as a shield to push chakra flames off of his body

So Jman in this situation dies

So...This is starting to look more like a point for my argument than yours


Serene Grace said:


> He can make more hair, it isn't only limited to the amount of hair Jiraiya has on his head lmao, unless you think the same amount of hair Jiraiya used to take down a bjuii sized summoning is the same amount of hair he has orginally.


And amaterasu users can make more flames...Flames way bigger than any hair Jman has ever made ill tell you that

And Jman cant react to the flames anyway...

And that crab pain summoned isnt biju sized...So unless you are referencing another instance that Jman attacked a summon with hair, i dont know where you are getting that notion


Serene Grace said:


> Yes it does


No it doesnt

Its fire

And it doesnt go out

It can do its work over time if need be


Serene Grace said:


> if it doesn't burn through instantly then Jiraiya can just shed the hair that is coated with Amaterasu.


Assuming he can sense, which he cant

And assuming he can sense jutsu build up, which no sage prior to *JJ obito* has done

And assuming he can react in time to make hand seals faster than a technique that almost tagged *V2 A*, which he cant

And assuming sasuke doesnt simply make a forest or biju sized fireball of amaterasu and smother Jman with it, which sasuke CAN do


Serene Grace said:


> And Jiraiya can release the hair in seconds


And amaterasu is damn near V2 A in speed

And the hair needs hand seals on top of it all

Really dont see how you view it as a viable counter dude


Serene Grace said:


> Roflz says who? Should I post the scan of Nagato


What does nagato, the third rikudo with amazing sensory feats that shocked even kabuto, have to do with a poor dead old man with no sensory feats to speak of?


Serene Grace said:


> Used an instance where Amaterasu a fucking fire technique was used on a fucking _*ice*_ dimension and was suprised that Amaterasu burned through it? Even went the extent to use a feat that rinnegan Sasuke accomplished as if that holds merit in a fight that only has MS Sasuke in it?


Funny how you brought up an instance of rikudo naruto and sauske to attempt to downplay amaterasu but i cant do the same to demonstrate one of feats

Double standards yay

And my point wasnt that it melted ice...My point was that it made kaguya deem it necessary to avoid going back to that dimension entirely

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 3, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> Might be imperfect but his Sage Mode does have its own benefits. He can partially transform into a frog and leap huge distances really fast.


Um

This...

This is a disadvantage dude...

Manifesting frog features isnt a choice of Jmans...Its a downside of being incapable of balancing the energy within him effectively...This is stated


Monty Burns said:


> Well they can create huge dust clouds to obscure his vision. He can also create clones. COR is also a viable counter since standard base Rasengans have cleared away regular Katons. Not only will it protect his body, but it will blow away the flames, and he can form it nigh instantly.


And he is gonna react to an attack he has no knowledge on, which he cant see coming until its already happened, and then proceed to make a smoke screen based on no information, and not only do that but also have time to go on the offensive?

When V2 A could barely move a few inches to the right with knowledge on the technique?

You dont find that a even a LITTLE bit much?



Monty Burns said:


> A lot of people think Jiraiya will just form a dust cloud/smoke bombs and just stand there hoping it prevents Amaterasu. He can shoot off Kebari Senbon, Lions Mane, Goemon, Zessenzan, Zessenbaku, attempt to strike him quickly with a Rasengan using partial frog transformations, Yomi Numa, Frog Call, prep clones and use them in conjuction with Gamadaira to catch Sasuke by surprise, attempt to force CQC etc...


No my point is he wont even have the time to form a dust cloud or move at all in anticipation of a technique he cant anticipate that pressured the fastest man alive

Many people think he is capable of sensing it despite not having shown a sensor ability and then follow that up with physical movements like attacking physically or even techniques that use goddamn hand seals, and he is gonna do them faster than V2 can move and get several techniques off before amaterasu can tag him.


Monty Burns said:


> Now onto Susanoo. Yomi Numa + FCD + Frog Call directly shuts it down.



Sasuke can read a techniques element based on its hand seals alone...He did this SPECIFICALLY with the doton element against deidara, on top of that sasuek has raiton...Raiton>Doton...Raiton directly shuts yomi numa down.
FCD is massively OOC against a non mega zord...And also needs hand seals and blood which sasuke can read and preemptively use his own summon...And i mean hey...If Jman opens with a boss summon sasuek just follows suit with aoda or genjutsus the summon or roasts it with enton
Frog call requires prep...A LOT of prep...
And at any stage of the game while jman is crouching down a few meters away from sasuek flying through hand seals i assume sasuek is just gonna have his thumb up his ass?

He isnt gonna try to attack Jman with susanoo arrows that were too fast for 3T kakashi, or amaterasu that made the eight tails scream like a bitch and almost tagged V2 A, or genjutsu Jmans toad sage summons or Jman himself



Monty Burns said:


> This Jiraiya downplay though.


Not what id call it

Jman is just outmatched

Sasuke is portrayed as Post SM training Narutos equal after he had defeated Jmans killer...

And sasukes aresenal is just a bitch for Jman to deal with

Only reason this match even warrants half a discussion is also because Jman starts in SM...Neutral scenario he gets wrecked low diff


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## Monty Burns (Sep 3, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Um
> 
> This...
> 
> ...


Manifesting frog features only means that he can't balance the natural energy properly. It doesn't mean his Sage Mode is shit. Besides I said he can partially transform into a frog which allows him to leap huge distances really quickly (like a frog) which is a advantage in combat.



WorldsStrongest said:


> No my point is he wont even have the time to form a dust cloud or move at all in anticipation of a technique he cant anticipate that pressured the fastest man alive
> 
> Many people think he is capable of sensing it despite not having shown a sensor ability and then follow that up with physical movements like attacking physically or even techniques that use goddamn hand seals, and he is gonna do them faster than V2 can move and get several techniques off before am


As soon as he sees Sasuke's MS he'll create a dust cloud.

You said he can't sense because his Sage Mode is imperfect. But the DB4 states he can sense and he has the Elder Sages on his shoulders who can sense too. Shima sensed the Chameleon.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke can read a techniques element based on its hand seals alone...He did this SPECIFICALLY with the doton element against deidara, on top of that sasuek has raiton...Raiton>Doton...Raiton directly shuts yomi numa down.


Won't be able to see hand seals if the entire area is covered in dust. Raiton > Doton only when the 2 elements are equal in power. Drugged Jiraiya's swamp instantly stopped Manda in its tracks. A Senpo version will be much stronger. That's why Sasuke's Raiton might not be enough. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> FCD is massively OOC against a non mega zord...And also needs hand seals and blood which sasuke can read and preemptively use his own summon...And i mean hey...If Jman opens with a boss summon sasuek just follows suit with aoda or genjutsus the summon or roasts it with enton


How is he going to do this when the frogs have crushed him?



WorldsStrongest said:


> Frog call requires prep...A LOT of prep...


Frog Song requires prep. Frog Call takes effect pretty quickly. He can use this until Sasuke deactivates Susanoo and follow up a counter with Lions Mane (that crushed a Bijuu sized summon), Kebari Senbon, Goemon, Zessenzan or Zessenbaku that ripped a Bijuu sized summon in pieces etc...



WorldsStrongest said:


> And at any stage of the game while jman is crouching down a few meters away from sasuek flying through hand seals i assume sasuek is just gonna have his thumb up his ass?
> 
> He isnt gonna try to attack Jman with susanoo arrows that were too fast for 3T kakashi, or amaterasu that made the eight tails scream like a bitch and almost tagged V2 A, or genjutsu Jmans toad sage summons or Jman himself


As soon as Sasuke manifests Susanoo he'll create dust clouds. Frog Call to force Sasuke to deactivate Susanoo and force CQC or use other techniques that I've said before.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 3, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> Manifesting frog features only means that he can't balance the natural energy properly. It doesn't mean his Sage Mode is shit.


It is, relative to a perfect sage anyway. The difference was big enough for Naruto utterly outclass him against the same foe despite being a much less experienced and rounded combatant.



> Besides I said he can partially transform into a frog which allows him to leap huge distances really quickly (like a frog) which is a advantage in combat.


Not an advantage over a perfect sage, since they can do that too without the body mod.



> As soon as he *sees Sasuke's MS* he'll create a dust cloud.


Surely you must see the problem with this.



> You said he can't sense because his Sage Mode is imperfect. But the DB4 states he can sense and he has the Elder Sages on his shoulders who can sense too. Shima sensed the Chameleon.


They can sense, but she didn't sense the Chameleon. She sniffed it out. Been beaten to death already that the DB's aren't infallible.



> Won't be able to see hand seals if the entire area is covered in dust. Raiton > Doton only when the 2 elements are equal in power. Drugged Jiraiya's swamp instantly stopped Manda in its tracks. A Senpo version will be much stronger. That's why Sasuke's Raiton might not be enough.


Jiraiya's swamp never stopped Manda, it stopped fodder snakes. I'm also quite certain that Sasuke's Raiton is good enough to stop Jiraiya's Doton SM or not since they're all high level A rank techniques cast by someone with immensely powerful chakra.



> How is he going to do this when the frogs have crushed him?



They aren't crushing him anymore than they crushed Pain and Orochimaru when they were summoned against them.



> Frog Song requires prep. Frog Call takes effect pretty quickly. He can use this until Sasuke deactivates Susanoo and follow up a counter with Lions Mane (that crushed a Bijuu sized summon), Kebari Senbon, Goemon, Zessenzan or Zessenbaku that ripped a Bijuu sized summon in pieces etc...
> 
> As soon as Sasuke manifests Susanoo he'll create dust clouds. Frog Call to force Sasuke to deactivate Susanoo and force CQC or use other techniques that I've said before.


Jiraiya is not Kabuto. He has zero knowledge on Sasuke and knows nothing about Susano'o or it's susceptibilities so he won't magically start with the perfect counter, and we can't his jutsu is going to be just as effective. Jiraiya will do the same thing he didnHe'll do the same thing he did against Pain. Go on the offensive and try to overwhelm him or restrain him, and fall back on subterfuge and indirect methods when those inevitably fail.


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## Monty Burns (Sep 3, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> It is, relative to a perfect sage anyway. The difference was big enough for Boruto's Dad utterly outclass him against the same foe despite being a much less experienced and rounded combatant.


Compared to Boruto's dad it isn't great but that wasn't my point at all.



Blu-ray said:


> Not an advantage over a perfect sage, since they can do that too without the body mod.


Never said advantage over a Perfect Sage though.



Blu-ray said:


> Surely you must see the problem with this.


Since when was looking at the MS automatic Genjutsu? He has 2 Sages on his shoulders to break him out anyway.



Blu-ray said:


> They can sense, but she didn't sense the Chameleon. She sniffed it out. Been beaten to death already that the DB's aren't infallible.


So the Elder Sages can sense.



Blu-ray said:


> Jiraiya's swamp never stopped Manda, it stopped fodder snakes. I'm also quite certain that Sasuke's Raiton is could enough to stop Jiraiya's Doton SM or not since they're all high level A rank techniques cast by someone with immensely powerful chakra.


Sorry my mistake. But Yomi Numa would be used against Susanoo and it would sink straight away because of it's weight. Sasuke would quickly need to resort to base in order to use Nagashi, but then Jiraiya could keep infusing more chakra into the swamp. I'm pretty certain a Senjutsu enhanced swamp would trouble Sasuke at the very least.



Blu-ray said:


> They aren't crushing him anymore than they crushed Pain and Orochimaru when they were summoned against them.


FCD pinned down Kurama. It would definitely crush a V4 Susanoo. Along with Yomi Numa it would sink him pretty fast.



Blu-ray said:


> Jiraiya is not Kabuto. He has zero knowledge on Sasuke and knows nothing about Susano'o or it's susceptibilities so he won't magically start with the perfect counter, and we can't his jutsu is going to be just as effective. Jiraiya will do the same thing he didnHe'll do the same thing he did against Pain. Go on the offensive and try to overwhelm him or restrain him, and fall back on subterfuge and indirect methods when those inevitably fail.


Since when did Kabuto know about Susanoo until he faced Itachi and Sasuke?

Jiraiya has multiple ways to deal with Susanoo, Yomi Numa/FCD/Goemon (Susanoo isn't protected underneath)/Frog Call.

And why do you think Jiraiya would try and overwhelm a huge chakra construct when he has a myriad of powerful ranged techniques up his sleave?


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## Blu-ray (Sep 3, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> Compared to Boruto's dad it isn't great but that wasn't my point at all.
> 
> Never said advantage over a Perfect Sage though.


My own point is that the transformation is a symptom of the mode being flawed, despite you spinning it into a more positive light.



> Since when was looking at the MS automatic Genjutsu? He has 2 Sages on his shoulders to break him out anyway.


Since always? Sasuke has zero reasons to not ensnare the man in genjutsu if he looks him square in the eye, and even if he's eventually broken out that's still an opening Sasuke can exploit.

There's also the issue of the kind of genjutsu Sasuke employs. If it's subtle, the toads might not realize he's ensnared quickly enough. If it's the brute force version ala Cee, then there's nothing to break as he'll be reeling even after the illusion ends.



> So the Elder Sages can sense.


That was never in question since Shima recognized Pain by his chakra.



> Sorry my mistake. But Yomi Numa would be used against Susanoo and it would sink straight away because of it's weight. Sasuke would quickly need to resort to base in order to use Nagashi, but then Jiraiya could keep infusing more chakra into the swamp. I'm pretty certain a Senjutsu enhanced swamp would trouble Sasuke at the very least.


Sasuke doesn't need to cancel Susano'o to use Chidori Nagashi or any other technique for that matter, and Jiraiya is going to die if he spends the entire time repeatedly casting one technique as that will just leave him open to an arrow or Amaterasu, things Sasuke has no trouble using while in one place.



> FCD pinned down Kurama. It would definitely crush a V4 Susanoo. Along with Yomi Numa it would sink him pretty fast.


There's just the slight issue of it actually hitting Sasuke, since that requires him to be standing there and doing nothing while Jman leaps above him and summons. Plus it'd only pin Susano'o in place. It lacks the power to actually bust it.


> Since when did Kabuto know about Susanoo until he faced Itachi and Sasuke?


The man had two Susano'o users in his Edo Tensei arsenal, saw them both use it against the Gokage and Nagato respectively, _knew it by name_, yet somehow didn't know about it till he faced off with the Uchiha bros?

That aside, how is it not common sense that a man who knew even about the Rinnegan in depth would know about Susano'o, which was common knowledge by the Kage summit?



> Jiraiya has multiple ways to deal with Susanoo, Yomi Numa/FCD/Goemon (Susanoo isn't protected underneath)/Frog Call.


We've already established that Sasuke can counter Yomi Numa with his Raiton, and Goemon won't get past his Susano'o anymore than Mei's Yoton did. FCD also requires Sasuke to do nothing while Jiraiya leaps in the air and summons a Toad beneath himself.



> And why do you think Jiraiya would try and overwhelm a huge chakra construct when he has a myriad of powerful ranged techniques up his sleave?


Because that's what he did when faced up against the Rinnegan? He has never seen Susano'o before and will not know it's weakpoints. It's like asking why he attacked Preta path with ninjutsu. The main isn't clairvoyant.

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## Serene Grace (Sep 3, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Its not my opinion...Jman hasnt sensed anything in this manga...Thats fact
> 
> Look it up
> 
> ...


All of these are examples of someone not having something in the databook yet having it in the manga

Show me an example of someone being stated to be something in the databook but didn't do it in the manga because of circumstances.

Lel this hypocrisy is fucking Hilarous. You use Naruto not being able to sense the revival of preta path as a basis to suggest that SM sensing can get caught off guard, but suddenly for Jiraiya getting caught off guard that isn't the case choose which one you fucking think stop switching from different sides and being a hypocrite

Anyways this even ignoring the possibility that Pein can't be sensed whislt Nagato is altering the chakra signatures of the paths, as not a single sensor was able to detect pein, nor could SM Naruto detect the revival of Preta path despite being able to sense the chakra of his entire village.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Not to mention as @Blu-ray pointed out to you Jman who was in SM at the time just btw


No because seeing is logically better than sensing, thats pretty much common sense



WorldsStrongest said:


> Like they sensed asura path for Jman?


Its either:

1. Peins chakra signatures can't be sensed if Nagato's altering his chakra signatures hence why Ma and Pa, SM Naruto and even other sensors in Konoha couldn't sense the paths the presence.

2. SM sensing can be fucked up when it's user is distracted as seen when:

Kabuto couldn't sense Itachi's extra clones
Naruto didn't sense the revival of Preta path, while he was occupied with another path.



WorldsStrongest said:


> And what exactly are their sensory feats outside of that absolute gem?



Dude it was outright shown that Ma recognized Pein due to his chakra, so yes she's a confirmed sensor absolutely nothing to suggest pa isn't as he's a SM users and it's outright staged that SM users can sense

So...

Wrong.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sensing isnt some all powerful impenetrable defensive barrier especially in the hands of a dude who has no feats with it


Lel it's a good enough to counter Amaterasu which is all they need.

Inb4 "na-na-na Nagato is the only one who can sense" when SM sensing was outright stated to be superior to conventional sensing which was what Nagato uses.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Something NO SAGE has EVER done before JJ OBITO then they would need to sense it,


Not gonna bother with this,  I've already told you why it's stupid to sAy a SM user can't sense the build up of Amaterasu when an inferior form of sensing was able to do such.



WorldsStrongest said:


> then verbally inform Jman that an arbitrary "something" they have no knowledge on is coming...To which Jman is gonna have the time to perform hand seals, and know to summon some form of defense that completely blocks his entire body? Based on nothing but "something is coming" ?
> 
> Really?
> 
> Wow


I never said Jiraiya would react with Hari Jizo though, you were the one who brought that up in the first place

If Ma and Pa sense  huge build up of chakra from a dojutsu, what do you think they're gonna do, stand there like retards doing nothing? No of course not, they're gonna attempt to block the LOS exactly like they did when they fought a Dojutsu user ergo Pein, one fucking dust cloud is all they need.

Also yes Amaterasu's build up time is long enough for someone to do a bunch of shit, accept it and cry to Kishimoto if you disagree I have the panel that proves it



WorldsStrongest said:


> Based on nothing
> 
> One would assume that a shitty version of SM would be shitty in all aspects of the form rather than selectively choosing its advantages and disadvantages as it suites them


Based off nothingI actually have a databook entry highlitghting all SM users being capable of sensing, and all you have is in instance where you gave fuck shit about the actual circumstances of said instance

Fuck out of here with based off nothing.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Never said he did so i dont get why you would say "wrong"
> 
> Merely pointed out it came close to tagging a dude with far greater reactions and physical speed than Jman could ever dream of
> 
> Therefore Jmans chances are non


Then why the fuck would you bring it up? You said he isn't fast enough to react to the actual jutsu, and I made it pretty evident thats not what I'm arguing, I'm arguing that either 3 of them can outspeed it's build up which was outright shown to be lengthy as pre canon



WorldsStrongest said:


> Which he isnt


Yes he is lmfao.


Canon>>>>>Your opinion


WorldsStrongest said:


> Nor can he detect this buildup aside from some roundabout argument that somehow includes nagato...The third rikudo...Who is in another dimension of ability compared to Jman...Who despite that fact, you regularly try to give the third rikudos feats to Jman...A man with 0 sensory feats and a shit version of SM to top it off...
> 
> Yeah...


But Jiraiya has 2 SM users in his shoulder, both of which can sense and we know it was outright staged that SM sensing>>>>conventional sensing

Or are we gonna argue with canon again



WorldsStrongest said:


> Because of the exact thing you quoted about him having superhuman durability?
> 
> The dude doesnt feel pain like normal humans
> 
> Cuz...Ya know...He also cut off his own fucking hand and didnt flinch???


Ok so Amaterasu's "strength" had jack shit to with Ay removing it, it was moreso he had no other way to get rid of the flames

Moving on



WorldsStrongest said:


> And you repeatedly ignore context and focus only on the low end feats for everyone* except Jman* it seems
> 
> He gets the high end feats of OTHER SHINOBI absurdely above him in every respect in arts he himself is featless in
> 
> Funny


This "context" you're talking about are just shitty excuses

I gave you 6 examples of the jutsu being garbage

Or was you gonna give me the "context" argument for all 6 as well





WorldsStrongest said:


> If it landed on him originally then he didnt react to it in a timely fashion now did he?
> 
> Jman, unlike naruto, cant manifest the most powerful bijus chakra as a shield to push chakra flames off of his body
> 
> ...


This is stupid lol.

_Naruto_ is the one who has to release the cloak, meaning _Naruto_ is the one that had to fucking react to the jutsu before it spread

Amaterasu as originally landed on Naruto as clearly seen in the panel, he didn't have his cloak activated, and yet the flames didn't do shit to him before he could release the cloak

And this was _tired base_ Naruto that was able to do it, no "lol riduko" base Naruto in a worn out stated

The Hari Jizo would coat his entire body, all he'd need to do is just shed the fucking hair and the flames are gone

That's it lol



WorldsStrongest said:


> What does nagato, the third rikudo with amazing sensory feats that shocked even kabuto, have to do with a poor dead old man with no sensory feats to speak of?


Ma and Pa say hi, either of them senses th build up of of amaterasu and negs it with a dust cloud

Or are they not sensors either?



WorldsStrongest said:


> Funny how you brought up an instance of rikudo naruto and sauske to attempt to downplay amaterasu but i cant do the same to demonstrate one of feats
> 
> Double standards yay
> 
> And my point wasnt that it melted ice...My point was that it made kaguya deem it necessary to avoid going back to that dimension entirely


I brought up an instance where a stronger version of Sasuke used Amaterasu and it was absolutely embrassed

You'd think that a rinnegan amped amaterasu would be more powerful than an MS one yet it didn't do jack shit to Base Naruto when it landed on him orginally.

Lol what does fire do to ice? Burn ice...right?

So no shit a fire technique is gonna be useful in fucking ice dimenson

Fire is literally designed to burn through ice lol.

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## Monty Burns (Sep 3, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> My own point is that the transformation is a symptom of the mode being flawed, despite you spinning it into a more positive light.


I'm not spinning it because that's what was shown in the manga. As bad as people want to put it 'a bin version' it clearly isn't. 



Blu-ray said:


> Since always? Sasuke has zero reasons to not ensnare the man in genjutsu if he looks him square in the eye, and even if he's eventually broken out that's still an opening Sasuke can exploit.


He needs to realise Jiraiya is making eye contact first. Even if Jiraiya doesn't do this, MS build up has always shifted the balance in the air (something like this) so through sensing he could figure out a strategy. He won't know it's Amaterasu, but he'll know a Jutsu is coming.



Blu-ray said:


> Sasuke doesn't need to cancel Susano'o to use Chidori Nagashi or any other technique for that matter, and Jiraiya is going to die if he spends the entire time repeatedly casting one technique as that will just leave him open to an arrow or Amaterasu, things Sasuke has no trouble using while in one place.


When has Sasuke ever used Nagashi inside Susanoo? As soon as Yomi Numa takes effect Sasuke will start to sink rapidly. It sunk those snakes instantly. V4 Susanoo will sink even faster. Then he can use Frog Call and follow up another attack once Susanoo deactivates leaving him vulnerable. 



Blu-ray said:


> Plus it'd only pin Susano'o in place. It lacks the power to actually bust it.


It pinned down 100% Kurama, why would it not bust a V4 Susanoo? Unless 100% Kurama = V4 Susanoo in strength.



Blu-ray said:


> The man had two Susano'o users in his Edo Tensei arsenal, saw them both use it against the Gokage and Nagato respectively, _knew it by name_, yet somehow didn't know about it till he faced off with the Uchiha bros?
> 
> That aside, how is it not common sense that a man who knew even about the Rinnegan in depth would know about Susano'o, which was common knowledge by the Kage summit?


I concede this point.



Blu-ray said:


> We've already established that Sasuke can counter Yomi Numa with his Raiton, and Goemon won't get past his Susano'o anymore than Mei's Yoton did. FCD also requires Sasuke to do nothing while Jiraiya leaps in the air and summons a Toad beneath himself.


Goemon is oil + fire + wind enhanced by Senjutsu. It'd be much stronger than Mei's Yoton, and it's a lake of oil. Susanoo is unprotected beneath. So it will catch him.

Jiraiya doesn't need to stand in front of Sasuke casting Jutsu. He can prep clones in multiple different areas hiding with Gamadaira and land Jutsu this way. Each time Sasuke uses a technique, Jiraiya will have knowledge on it 1 by 1. Then he can figure out counters.


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## Skywalker (Sep 4, 2017)

Jiraiya turns off Sage Mode and casually defeats Sasuke in base, since he's capable of defeating Itachi and Kisame at once, obviously.

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## Braiyan (Sep 4, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Multiple SCORs are way better than Mei's acid fog or Raikage's backhand bitch slap or Danzo's despereate wind release.



Multiple SCORs? One is already bigger than Jiraiya's body. He can probably can get two with a clone, but that's only if Sasuke sits around and lets him do so. And they can still get tanked, considering that Sasuke can manifest a more powerful form of Susano'o than just Ribcage in this scenario, along with a shield.



> Yomi Numa can make Susano sink



Too bad Sasuke not only has the Sharingan to read Jiraiya's Doton handseals, but also has Raiton himself to counter it.



> , Yatai Kuzushi can pound.



And hardly do anything to Susano'o, which is the point. From there Sasuke can kill the toad with Enton/Chidori Spear/Susano'o sword, and Jiraiya will be back at square one.

Even outside of that, this requires Jiraiya to get above Sasuke, summon a toad, and land on him all without being interrupted, when Sasuke can blast him out of the sky with Katons/Amaterasu, interrupt him with Chidori Senbon/Wired Raiton Shuriken, or simply dodge the toad. 



> Even Hairs (which is bested boss summon size animal with tough shell) could do much things.



Are you implying that Pain's Crab summon is as durable as Sasuke's Susano'o? Or that attempting to restrain a man who can look at you then burn you with an unquenchable fire is a good strategy to employ with your hair?



> Multiple Senpo Goemons !? .. Jiraiya faced against a dude that can absorb his jutsus .. Sasuke aint that guy.. And Jiraiya now can show his entire arsenal. Which is versatile and effective enough to make Jiraiya victor against Cerberus while his hands are tie !



1. Jiraiya and Gamaken never won against the Cerberus. In fact they were getting beaten.
2. Goemon, like Jiraiya's other Katon-based attacks, can be turned against him, just like Sasuke's CS enhanced Katon was turned back against himself by Amaterasu.
3. How is Jiraiya pulling off "Multiple Goemons" in the first place?



> MS Sasuke's susano aint has that type of "invincible" effect (He aint no yata or totsuga or V4 or PS) ...



It doesn't need to be invincible, it just needs to be durable enough to take on Jiraiya's attacks. Which it can in its higher forms, one of which includes V4.



> Even senpo enchanced Gamayu Endan with 3 Boss Summons would be devastating ...



Remind me again why Sasuke is just going to stand around and watch Jiraiya get in a location to safely summon 3 Boss toads, make clones, coordinate with them to perform a 3 way Toad Oil Flame Bullet, and not shoot the toads and Jiraiya down with his multiple fast projectiles attacks or genjutsu the first chance he gets. Or respond to the fireball with Amaterasu.



> Plus there is another sound base attacks of elder toads way faster / quicker than Gama Rinsho that could make Sasuke dizzy



That attack is temporary and short ranged. Which means Ma and Pa would be getting within Susano'o and Chidori Spear's range to use it, and risk getting ripped to shreds in the process. It's also not likely to make Sasuke disable his Susano'o since it's not genjutsu, nor as intense as Kabuto's flashbang jutsu. 



> So nope his Susano cant block everything. And it never did (MS Susano) per canon.



Never said his Susano'o can block everything. I said it can block Jiraiya's arsenal not including Frog Song.

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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 4, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> And they can still get tanked, considering that Sasuke can manifest a more powerful form of Susano'o than just Ribcage in this scenario, along with a shield.


Are we really compare a fuuton blast with senjutsu enchanced cho odama rasengan ? (multiple) and why Jiraiya is limited with two clones ? Even Kakashi, Minato, Yamato doing more than that.


Braiyan said:


> Raiton himself to counter it.


Having raiton =/= automatic win. 

Suiton > Katon but entire suiton division aint able to put Madara's Katon down ...Senpo enchanced Yomi Numa would be gigantic. So its still messy.


Braiyan said:


> And hardly do anything to Susano'o, which is the point.


Sasuke's susano hardly stood against Danzo's base fuuton blast with an extra shield.

100+ tons of weight comes from the sky and thats makes its mass and force even bigger. ITs fine enough to bend &100 Kyuubi on his paws.. But it cant to nothing to V3 Susano ?! It would crash. And once crashed Sasuke cant release any offensive attack cuz he would be squized. And Jiraiya had 3 giant toad. 3 Yatai Kuzushi would be too much.


Braiyan said:


> Are you implying that Pain's Crab summon is as durable as Sasuke's Susano'o?


No but that was base Jiraiya's hair and we all know senjutsu enhanced all physicall and energy base attacks positively. So Senjutsu enchanced hairs can deal with  ribcage and V2 susanos easily.. V3 is different.


Braiyan said:


> Or that attempting to restrain a man who can look at you then burn you with an unquenchable fire is a good strategy to employ with your hair?



Jiriaya can seal amaterasu or he can use a gamadaira decoy. Or he can protect himself with hair since in SM mode his Hairs constantly produced by Elder Toads.. So and we all know Amaterasu is a very slow jutsu when its comes to burns. It didnt even made scar on Karin or Madara... And Kankuro saved Samurai with chakra strings.. So amaterasu can be seal or can be blocked with any solid object like Gaara did.

And worse of' em all. Jiraiya can reflect that amaterasu on Sasuke..


1st Jiriaya hair starts to burn with amaterasu and Jiraiya can use Kebari Senbon and can send back amaterasu fired hair senbons to Sasuke
2nd. Jiriaya can tank or block Entons or Amaterasu with Giant Rasengan and he can drop that Kagutsuchi Rasengan to the head of Sasuke easily. 

People always forget how dangerous a rasengan user for an amaterasu user. Cuz it aint burn that thing, on the contrary they became a new offensive asset. And Jiraiya can use that formula. Cuz he already faced with amaterasu and he now knows amaterasu's mechanics.


Braiyan said:


> Jiraiya and Gamaken never won against the Cerberus


What happened to Cerberus then ? Plus since when fighting = beating ? 





Braiyan said:


> Goemon, like Jiraiya's other Katon-based attacks, can be turned against him, just like Sasuke's CS enhanced Katon was turned back against himself by Amaterasu.


But this jutsu its not a Katon Jutsu is more like liquid with oil. SO it would make jutsu stronger if you spam Amaterasu and still keeps to charge on Sasuke.


Braiyan said:


> How is Jiraiya pulling off "Multiple Goemons" in the first place?


He can constantly release the same jutsu whats stopping jim ? Sasuke has preta ?


Braiyan said:


> it just needs to be durable enough to take on Jiraiya's attacks.



Which is not exaclty guaranteed 


Braiyan said:


> Remind me again why Sasuke is just going to stand around and watch Jiraiya


And why you always try to assume that Jiraiya that never able to find a chance to attack.. That man used Summons when he drugged, when he faced with pain in a  surrounded area and Naruto also used Summons almost in every battle. And no one blow' em right of the bat. Cuz they're also can attack by themselves. Plus SM Jiraiya is very fast u know ? He is not gonna do those things slowly.. 

And Toads can leap hundreds of meters high so he can perform attack from out of Sasuke's range..

Drugged one toad Gamayu Endan was a 100+ meter jutsu by itself.

Senpo enchanced 3 toad Gamayu Endan would be much for Sasuke. And there no amaterasu or enton feat against a mobile object which is that far from the caster. 

So ? 




Braiyan said:


> I said it can block Jiraiya's arsenal


Which is just an assumption.






And did you realize something ?


Braiyan said:


> Susano'o





Braiyan said:


> Susano'o,





Braiyan said:


> Enton





Braiyan said:


> Amaterasu





Braiyan said:


> Susano'o





Braiyan said:


> Amaterasu





Braiyan said:


> Amaterasu





Braiyan said:


> V4.





Braiyan said:


> Susano'o





Braiyan said:


> Susano'o




You used these two MS assets for almost every incidents that cause by Jiraiya. What about Stamina & Pain ? There is no Gaara, Zetsu, Obito, Karin, Suigetsu and Jugo for savin him. and without these chars Sasuke would been dead 3-4 times in Five Kage Summit.

Danzo, Ônoki, Mei, A4 all of'em weaker than Jiraiya (only Ônoki close to him). So why now Sasuke starts to win ? Why he didnt use amaterasu on Onoki or Mei ? 

Cuz Sasuke cant keep use MS techs for all incidents that he is gonna face.. His stamina terrible against a Sage.

So you cant come up with Enton / Susano for every incident.. That means Sasuke gonna die by himself.

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## Android (Sep 4, 2017)

It's 2017 and nerds still can't understand that Nagato keeps changing his chakra signatures all the time preventing his paths from being sensed with regular sensing methods 
The guy himself can hide his own freaking chakra signatures from sensors like Karin. Which is why Konoha Jounin team which consists of bunch of Byakugan users and Yamanaka sensors couldn't find out his secret location.
And it is why SM Naruto, one of the best sensors in the manga had to literally stab himself with those black receivers to find out where Pain's chakra was coming from.
It's also why Naruto, nor Fukasku nor Shima could feel Gakido's presence after it was revived.
Not only SM Naruto but KCM Naruto as well, he couldn't feel Nagato's presence before he flattened them with ST, despite being both a chakra sensor and neg emo sensor.


Serene Grace said:


> Amaterasu as originally landed on Naruto as clearly seen in the panel, he didn't have his cloak activated, and yet the flames didn't do shit to him before he could release the cloak


All of this is wrong.
If you could check out the panel again, Ama was hovering above his arm when it hit him, plus there is no SFX that would indicate pain, Gyuki immediately screamed like a how when he got hit with Ama, so wouldn't a base Naruto feel pain ?
He released the cloak before Amaterasu even hit him.

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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 4, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> I'm done bruh


Yet here we are...



Serene Grace said:


> All of these are examples of someone not having something in the databook yet having it in the manga
> 
> *Show me an example of someone being stated to be something in the databook but didn't do it in the manga because of circumstances*.


Jman not sensing anything on panel yet the DB stating he can with no basis for it

Done deal 


Serene Grace said:


> Lel this hypocrisy is fucking Hilarous. You use Naruto not being able to sense the revival of preta path as a basis to suggest that SM sensing can get caught off guard, but suddenly for Jiraiya getting caught off guard that isn't the case choose which one you fucking think stop switching from different sides and being a hypocrite


Its not hypocritical whatsoever

I state that Naruto getting caught off guard despite being a known sensor WITH ADDITIONAL SENSORY FEATS allows a case to be made that sensing isnt an impenetrable defensive barrier...The fact literally every sage ever include rikudo sages has been surprised is also proof of this fact.

The issue with Jman is...He doesnt have a feat of sensing anything ever...And he wasnt in a death battle when caught off guard like naruto was...

Jman believed the fight was over but was still in SM "with 2 more toads for sensing on his shoulder" as you keep bringing up...And SM has passive sensing...And Jman was murked with no reaction or hint that he sensed jack shit.

Naruto on the other hand was mid freaking mortal kombat with the paths of pain when he didnt notice the revival of a single path...See the difference?

Probs not honestly


Serene Grace said:


> Anyways this even ignoring the possibility that Pein can't be sensed


This is a whole other topic more than worthy of its own thread...

So im not touching this here

If another thread topic is made id be happy to contribute but this thread is on teh brink of being derailed already so imma leave it


Serene Grace said:


> No because seeing is logically better than sensing, thats pretty much common sense


The fact you believe Nagato uses some kind of fodder sensing is freaking hilarious grace

Kabuto revived dozens of Kage+ level nin for the war arc with heaps of different high level abilities

For example...He revived Mu...A man renowned the world fucking over decades after his death for his sensory skill...And he failed to detect kabutos location despite being under the direct influence of his chakra...

Naruto was also present during the war arc with either SM or KCM, both of his modes *shown* to have country or at least city level sensory ability, KCM in particular was shown to be able to sense chakra through barriers entire countries away...Ya know...Like how kabuto was set up inside a barrier? And he had either mode active while fighting Edos under kabutos control *multiple times*...Yet even he didnt detect Kabutos location

Nagato however succeeded where all the rest had failed...What im getting at here is that his sensory ability is clearly unique and cant nor SHOULD it be lumped together under an umbrella term of "conventional sensing"

And as i have brought up continually...The fucker was renowned as the third rikudo, possessed the eyes of the sage of the six paths, and was absurdly above any sage ever introduced at that point in the manga to the point it was embarrassing, not to mention most other nin, sages or not.

Yet somehow its inconceivable for that level of superiority to be applicable to his sensory ability?



Serene Grace said:


> Its either:
> 
> 1. Peins chakra signatures can't be sensed if Nagato's altering his chakra signatures hence why Ma and Pa, SM Naruto and even other sensors in Konoha couldn't sense the paths the presence.


Again...This is worthy of its own topic

Wont discuss it here but id be more than happy to in another thread



Serene Grace said:


> 2. SM sensing can be fucked up when it's user is distracted as seen when:
> 
> Kabuto couldn't sense Itachi's extra clones
> Naruto didn't sense the revival of Preta path, while he was occupied with another path.


Except this doesnt save you pal Jman as he wasnt distracted...

In both instances you have cited the SM user who didnt sense something not only POSSESSES FEATS outside being made of fool of but were also in the heat of a death battle...Kabuot was against 2 Uchiha prodigies and outnumbered, and Naruto was against a handful of the paths of pain and outnumbered...Jman was in SM and casually walking when he didnt sense shit.

See the difference?



Serene Grace said:


> Dude it was outright shown that Ma recognized Pein due to his chakra, so yes she's a confirmed sensor absolutely nothing to suggest pa isn't as he's a SM users and it's outright staged that SM users can sense
> 
> So...
> 
> Wrong.


You need to really look at what im asking you before you just throw the word "wrong" around

I never disputed Ma was a sensor...Matter of fucking fact...I outright stated one of her sensory abilities...I merely asked you for some of their other sensing feats

Didnt say "lol toads cant sense"



Serene Grace said:


> Lel it's a good enough to counter Amaterasu which is all they need.


Except you make this conclusion based on conjecture and a really roundabout argument including nagato...Who doesnt use the same method of sensing as Toad SM users and likely has a different focus than theirs regardless...


Serene Grace said:


> Inb4 "na-na-na Nagato is the only one who can sense" when SM sensing was outright stated to be superior to conventional sensing which was what Nagato uses.


You are far from inb4 dude

And this has been addressed about a dozen times now

Nagato isnt Jman

Nagato isnt a sage

So even IF i let you have the point that Jman can sense despite there being nothing but an inconsistent as all hell DB to back it up, which im pretty sure doesnt even list Jman as a sensor in any book btw

They use entirely different methods of sensing so the feat isnt transferable

To top it off even ignoring Jmans lack of sensory ANYTHING Nagato is also an entire dimesnion more skilled and powerful than Jman...Making even less sense for you to try to give nagatos feats to a dead old man.




Serene Grace said:


> Not gonna bother with this, I've already told you why it's stupid to sAy a SM user can't sense the build up of Amaterasu when an inferior form of sensing was able to do such.


You say its inferior based on literally nothing

Ive already told you theres no proof in this manga Jman can sense period...SM or not...Ive highlighted a disparity in overall SM performance in a different category as well as sensing between Jman and a mastered sage...Which you havent addressed...


WorldsStrongest said:


> One would assume that a shitty version of SM would be shitty in all aspects of the form rather than selectively choosing its advantages and disadvantages as it suites them
> 
> Which the manga demonstrates tbh
> 
> ...



There is a difference in physical ability between Jman and Naruto in SM as naruto could OHKO a path with a punch wheres Jman couldnt KO a path with a kick...

There is a difference in sensory ability given naruto has actually demonstrated it and Jman hasnt

there is a statement that puts naruto at a higher level of senjutsu than Jman altogether

Why does it not make sense to you that Jman using a shit version of SM doesnt have access to the full privileges of a full fledged sage???

When there is a shown difference in ability between their two modes?

Such a difference in fact, that despite Jman having an absurd edge in every way over Base Naruto that when using SM, Naruto is the far superior one due to having mastered the form better than Jman could? (SM Naruto>SM Jman>Base Jman>Base Naruto)



Serene Grace said:


> I never said Jiraiya would react with Hari Jizo though, you were the one who brought that up in the first place


I also never said hari jizo as a serious point it was brought up as a joke


Serene Grace said:


> If Ma and Pa sense huge build up of chakra from a dojutsu, what do you think they're gonna do, stand there like retards doing nothing? No of course not, they're gonna attempt to block the LOS exactly like they did when they fought a Dojutsu user ergo Pein, one fucking dust cloud is all they need.


The thing is on what basis do you give them the ability to even detect dojutsu buildup ?

Because nagato could ?

Because "lol SM>conventional  sensing"?

Except ive already pointed out nagatos sensory ability is far from "conventional" due to outperforming the likes of KCM naruto and the entirety of kabutos Edo crew including legendary nin with world renowned sensory abilities.

Also...A dust cloud? Really? Thats your big play?

A dust cloud is gonna stop amaterasu from tagging Jman?

Get real

Sasuek hits the dust cloud with amaterasu what happens to Jman?

He bursts into flames while inside the dust cloud...The flames arent gonna bounce off of the dust cloud...They will go through it and tag Jman and kill him.

Unless you would like to claim that Jman can physically dodge amaterasu after making a reaction and kicking up a a dust cloud with no knowledge when V2 A could barely move a few inches with knowledge on the technique


Serene Grace said:


> Also yes Amaterasu's build up time is long enough for someone to do a bunch of shit, accept it and cry to Kishimoto if you disagree I have the panel that proves it


Again you assume Jman with no sensing ability is on nagatos level just for lulz...

And you mean when nagato felt Amaterasus build up that didnt lead to amaterasu ?

Cuz thats exactly what happened in the situation you are referencing pal

Looking at it again it looks like what nagato actually detected was koto...He even arguably corrects his earlier assumption of it being amaterasu




Serene Grace said:


> Based off nothingI actually have a databook entry highlitghting all SM users being capable of sensing, and all you have is in instance where you gave fuck shit about the actual circumstances of said instance
> 
> Fuck out of here with based off nothing.


You have a DB...Congrats...Throw it out

The "fuck shit" im giving about circumstance is called actually looking at the circumstance

Jman was in SM...Which is supposed to grant passive sensing to its users, yet despite there being no distractions to speak of such as a high level death match, he still got murked with no reaction.

Every other time SM sensing "failed" it was during the heat of battle...Not a casual stroll away from one like Jmans situation.

And another thing, in every other instance of SM sesning failing, the SM user in question actually has feats outside utter failure to prove they can sense whereas Jman doesnt

And another thing, the SM user in question had also mastered SM whereas Jman hasnt



Serene Grace said:


> Then why the fuck would you bring it up? You said he isn't fast enough to react to the actual jutsu, and I made it pretty evident thats not what I'm arguing, I'm arguing that either 3 of them can outspeed it's build up which was outright shown to be lengthy as pre canon


I agree the build up to amaterasu when amaterasu is seemingly cancelled and/or the technique detected may not hav been amaterasu in the first place is pretty lengthy

There are also more than one instance of amaterasu buildup being shown to be damn near instantaneous...But of course we only use amas low end stuff.

Also fun fact...Nagato and Naruto and Bee all had knowledge amaterasu even prior to sensing some buildup...Jman and co dont have that advantage against sasuke.



Serene Grace said:


> Yes he is lmfao.
> 
> 
> Canon>>>>>Your opinion


Again, Jman being on nagatos level just cuz

When nagato canonically outperformed various high level sensors by being the only sensor to detect kabutos location despite KCM or SM naruto and Mu being around.

And also being the only one present in the battle between KCM Naruto and Bee and Itachi to detect itachis chakra buildup...Narutos KCM didnt do so yet again...

Speaking of canon...In canon Jman isnt a sensor due to a total lack of feats to suggest he is

"Canon>>>Your opinion"



Serene Grace said:


> But Jiraiya has 2 SM users in his shoulder, both of which can sense and we know it was outright staged that SM sensing>>>>conventional sensing
> 
> Or are we gonna argue with canon again


Im gonna argue that Nagatos sensing is far from conventional cuz it isnt...By feats that have it outperforming sensors that shit on Jman or his toads...

Never have i stated that the toads he possesses arent sensors so dont put words in my mouth

Im also gonna argue that the toads wont know what they are sensing...They are gonna know "something" is coming...An arbitrary "something" they have never sensed before is *exactly* what they are gonna sense...

And they are gonna know to immediately inform Jman to put a solid LoS blocker that obstructs Jmans entire body between him and sasuke based on "something is coming" with no knowledge?

And Jman is gonna be fast enough to react to that information and fly through HAND SEALS before AMATERASU is gonna hit him with a vague warning under his belt?

Alllll righty then


Serene Grace said:


> Ok so Amaterasu's "strength" had jack shit to with Ay removing it, it was moreso he had no other way to get rid of the flames
> 
> Moving on


Neither does Jman in the even he is tagged

Which happens pretty damn quick




Serene Grace said:


> This "context" you're talking about are just shitty excuses
> 
> I gave you 6 examples of the jutsu being garbage
> 
> Or was you gonna give me the "context" argument for all 6 as well


Ive already given the context multiple times

If i give it again its just gonna be ignored yet again and followed up with "lel trasheratsu"

So why bother?



Serene Grace said:


> This is stupid lol.
> 
> _Naruto_ is the one who has to release the cloak, meaning _Naruto_ is the one that had to fucking react to the jutsu before it spread


It still tagged him tho

In your own words


Serene Grace said:


> Amaterasu as originally landed on Naruto as clearly seen in the panel


What does Jman do in that situation?

Oh thats right die horribly and in pain



Serene Grace said:


> Ma and Pa say hi, either of them senses th build up of of amaterasu and negs it with a dust cloud
> 
> Or are they not sensors either?


Addressed...

Dust cloud doesnt impede the flames moving forward cuz its not a damn force field

And the toads very likely wont know to break LoS in anticipaton of chakra buildup for  atechnique they have never experienced

And Jman may not be fast enough to respond to the warnings they may or may not give him anyway

There is a three fold hole in this plan...And all of em are huge



Serene Grace said:


> I brought up an instance where a stronger version of Sasuke used Amaterasu and it was absolutely embrassed
> 
> You'd think that a rinnegan amped amaterasu would be more powerful than an MS one yet it didn't do jack shit to Base Naruto when it landed on him orginally.


It didnt do jack because yet again it was on him for less than 5 seconds before it was removed...Like over half the examples you all use repeatedly anyway

Jman has no method of removing it...So in the same scenario he dies


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## Blu-ray (Sep 4, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> I'm not spinning it because that's what was shown in the manga. As bad as people want to put it 'a bin version' it clearly isn't.


Again, it allowed a much less experienced and rounded ninja in Naruto to outclass Jiraiya against the same foe. There's a significant enough difference.



> He needs to realise Jiraiya is making eye contact first.


How is he not going to notice someone gawking at him right in the eye with vision keen enough to notice the faintest muscle twitch and precise enough to see things on a cellular level?



> Even if Jiraiya doesn't do this,* MS build up has always shifted the balance in the air (something like this)* so through sensing he could figure out a strategy. He won't know it's Amaterasu, but he'll know a Jutsu is coming.


It doesn't do anything of the sort.



> When has Sasuke ever used Nagashi inside Susanoo? As soon as Yomi Numa takes effect Sasuke will start to sink rapidly. It sunk those snakes instantly. V4 Susanoo will sink even faster. Then he can use Frog Call and follow up another attack once Susanoo deactivates leaving him vulnerable.


If he can use Amaterasu, Gogakyu, and Chidori Eiso inside it, then he can use Nagashi. He's never had a reason to use it post MS since Susano'o is usually all the defense he'd need anyway. Sasuke also isn't a fodder snake. He can react quickly enough with Nagashi to stop the sinking.



> It pinned down 100% Kurama, why would it not bust a V4 Susanoo? Unless 100% Kurama = V4 Susanoo in strength.


This has nothing to do with strength. Susano'o's upper stages is simply too durable to be broken by it, and there's the problem of it hitting Sasuke in the first place.



> I concede this point.


K.



> Goemon is oil + fire + wind enhanced by Senjutsu. It'd be much stronger than Mei's Yoton, and it's a lake of oil. Susanoo is unprotected beneath. So it will catch him.


I wasn't comparing their strength, though it's not like Goemon can overpower it anyway. The point is that it isn't unprotected in that sense, otherwise Mei's Acid Mist and liquid Yoton would not have failed to get in, especially since Susano'o was completely submerged in the latter.



> Jiraiya doesn't need to stand in front of Sasuke casting Jutsu. He can prep clones in multiple different areas hiding with Gamadaira and land Jutsu this way. Each time Sasuke uses a technique, Jiraiya will have knowledge on it 1 by 1. Then he can figure out counters.


Jiraiya isn't Naruto. He doesn't start with clones and doesn't use multiple of them.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sapherosth (Sep 4, 2017)

I don't recall someone preemptively defending against something that they don't see coming first. Unless there's not enough of it to suggest J-man will suddenly put up* the perfect defense *against Itachi's techniques without seeing it. 

Jiraiya himself stated that without seeing an attack, even if you are a sensor, you can't defend against it effectively. Jiraiya is neither a sensor nor does he have the luxury of seeing the attack coming, since it's fast. 

It's just pure wank to say he can put up the perfect defense against something he has no clue about.



As for the so called "Amateratsu build-up", why not bring up the MANY other instances where  there were no build-up?  The panels with no-build up is actually far more than ones with a "build-up".


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## Serene Grace (Sep 4, 2017)

Because there aren't any panels of there not being a build up, that's why.


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 4, 2017)

This thread is hilarious, it's full of nothing more than the usual Jiraiya downplay and Uchiha bias. People still talking about how Jiraiya can't sense when DB4 literally states he has the same sensing as Naruto and Fukasaku. Based on him not showing sensory feats against Pain: a character who has been literally shown to be difficult for sensors to detect. On top of ignoring how overtime things in this manga change, and get retconned. As for example, during said fight, Jiraiya himself said even if the Pains could sense they wouldn't be able to fight as effectively as they did unless they had multiple eyes. Yet, in the War Arc we see characters like Mu (who has ordinary sensing) using it to dodge attacks from his blindsides: proving Kishi changed his mind. On top of characters like Nagato (who also has ordinary sensing) being able to sense Amaterasu ahead of time (meaning that a counter is possible). But nope, apparently Jiraiya doesn't have sensing no matter what and is doomed to hopelessly be one-shotted by Amaterasu. Mostly due to the fact that it made Gyuki and the Ten-Tails "scream like a bitch". But what I remember is both of them managing to counter it in seconds despite the pain.

Furthermore, for some reason, despite being literally stated absolutely nowhere and the literal opposite being stated he doesn't have sensing due to being an imperfect Sage. But what makes this even worse, is that even if that was true, Fukasaku and Shima are both perfect Sages who have demonstrated sensing abilities on panel. But for whatever reason, they as well as Jiraiya, will do absolutely nothing as they sense a large chakra buildup and incoming danger from an MS user. 

However, one of the funniest points made in this thread. Is the fact that some will even go as far as to point out the databooks inconsistencies to say that it can't be trusted. Whilst ignoring the fact that the manga has plenty of it's own inconsistencies but for some reason they don't mention them but only the databooks. The main thing that makes this point so funny though, is that the databook has never stated that a character has something that they don't have. It has only ever forgotten to mention that certain characters have certain abilities. It has never just randomly made shit up, but this fact is also conveniently ignored. Seems like people choose to ignore the databook when it doesn't suit their own argument. 

Anyhow, SM Jiraiya should win with high difficulty. I'd go into more detail, but I can't be bothered at the moment.

Extra Note: I also like how SM Jiraiya doesn't have the reflexes to counter Susanoo Arrow with Wild Lion's Mane, when a chakra deprived Danzo managed to do so with a nameless fodder Wood Release jutsu at the last second. Oh the bias never ends.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 4, 2017)

Sasuke wins.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Braiyan (Sep 5, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Are we really compare a fuuton blast with senjutsu enchanced cho odama rasengan ? (multiple) and why Jiraiya is limited with two clones ? Even Kakashi, Minato, Yamato doing more than that.



It took an enhanced Fuuton hitting Sasuke from behind to breach his humanoid Susano'o. Danzo never breached Susano'o from in front, where its shield is. And here Sasuke can use V4/armored Susano'o.

It's not about the number of clones. Kakashi was never seen using multiple Raikiris along with more than 1 clone. Same applies with Minato and Rasengan. The only one seen using multiple Rasengans at that size with clones is Naruto, and he's the exception due to his ridiculous chakra levels (from being Kurama's jin and an Uzumaki).



> Having raiton =/= automatic win.
> 
> Suiton > Katon but entire suiton division aint able to put Madara's Katon down ...Senpo enchanced Yomi Numa would be gigantic. So its still messy.



That's cool and all, but Sasuke doesn't have to counter a gigantic swamp, he just has to stop himself and/or his Susano'o from sinking. Which Chidori Nagashi is perfect for. Nor is Jiraiya likely to use a gigantic swamp on a human sized opponent when he didn't do so against Human Path.



> Sasuke's susano hardly stood against Danzo's base fuuton blast with an extra shield.



"Hardly stood" is an exaggeration. Both Susano'o and its shield were fine.



> 100+ tons of weight comes from the sky and thats makes its mass and force even bigger. ITs fine enough to bend &100 Kyuubi on his paws.. But it cant to nothing to V3 Susano ?! It would crash. And once crashed Sasuke cant release any offensive attack cuz he would be squized.



Except for Enton which doesn't require movement. Or Chidori Nagashi. Or he Chidori Spears the toad before it lands on him. Or he blasts Jiraiya out the sky with a Katon/Arrow before he performs the summon.
And this still doesn't address the issue of tagging Sasuke with the technique in the first place.



> And Jiraiya had 3 giant toad. 3 Yatai Kuzushi would be too much.



So Jiraiya is going to be using this jutsu with 3 toads, when he's never summoned 3 toads at the same time, needed a ritual just to summon 2, may need clones to pull this off at all (assuming the clones have the chakra to do so), all to hit 1 Sasuke, who is going to watch Jiraiya jump above him and do nothing about it because ... reasons?



> No but that was base Jiraiya's hair and we all know senjutsu enhanced all physicall and energy base attacks positively. So Senjutsu enchanced hairs can deal with  ribcage and V2 susanos easily..



1. Sasuke can set his Susano'o on fire.
2. Sasuke can set Jiraiya on fire. Or electrocute him with Chidori Nagashi. Or use genjutsu.
3. Sasuke could simply avoid being caught by the hair altogether, considering it has no impressive speed feats.
4. Even Sasuke's Ribcage Susano'o has survived more than Pain's Crab Summon. Its feat of helping Sasuke survive Liger Bomb, from the same Raikage who punched a hole through CS2 Juugo, knocked around Bee and KCM Naruto with one hand, and cut through the second strongest bijuu's horn with a chop, trumps anything that Crab Summon has tanked.




> Jiriaya can seal amaterasu or he can use a gamadaira decoy.



So Jiraiya is going to pull out a scroll, write up a sealing formula, and perform the handsigns to seal Amaterasu ... while on fire.



> Or he can protect himself with hair since in SM mode his Hairs constantly produced by Elder Toads.. So and we all know Amaterasu is a very slow jutsu when its comes to burns.



Except for when it burnt down Gyuki. Or when it engulfed Danzo. Or when it burned through a fire breathing toad's stomach. Or when it engulfed a whole forest.



> It didnt even made scar on Karin or Madara...



Karin, who is naturally resilient due to her Uzumaki heritage and can heal injuries with her chakra. Karin, who got hit indirectly by an Amaterasu that burnt through her clothes and was cancelled by Sasuke.

Madara, who can absorb chakra.



> And Kankuro saved Samurai with chakra strings.. So amaterasu can be seal or can be blocked with any solid object like Gaara did.



Except in Jiraiya's case, the solid objects being proposed for him to block with (his hair) are attached to him.




> And worse of' em all. Jiraiya can reflect that amaterasu on Sasuke..
> 
> 1st Jiriaya hair starts to burn with amaterasu and Jiraiya can use Kebari Senbon and can send back amaterasu fired hair senbons to Sasuke



Which Sasuke just sends back to Jiraiya since he possesses Enton ...
He literally debuted the jutsu by coating his Susano'o with Amaterasu. Flaming hair senbons are not going to be a problem for him.



> 2nd. Jiriaya can tank or block Entons or Amaterasu with Giant Rasengan and he can drop that Kagutsuchi Rasengan to the head of Sasuke easily.



How exactly is Jiraiya anticipating Amaterasu to the point that he's going to block it with Rasengan?




> What happened to Cerberus then ? Plus since when fighting = beating ?



Pain desummoned it after knocking Gamaken in the air and switched to the Bird summon. And it's beating when all your attacks do is make your enemy stronger, lead to you getting knocked around and lose one of your main weapons, which is exactly what happened to Gamaken.




> But this jutsu its not a Katon Jutsu



Ma and Pa use a Katon and Fuuton in the formation of it. Fuutons make Katons stronger, hence like I said, it's Katon based.



> is more like liquid with oil. SO it would make jutsu stronger if you spam Amaterasu and still keeps to charge on Sasuke.



Except Amaterasu would be burning the whole thing and Sasuke can control said flames via Enton.



> He can constantly release the same jutsu whats stopping jim ? Sasuke has preta ?



You said multiple so I assumed you meant more than one Goemon. Not constantly using the same one.




> And why you always try to assume that Jiraiya that never able to find a chance to attack.. That man used Summons when he drugged, when he faced with pain in a  surrounded area and Naruto also used Summons almost in every battle. And no one blow' em right of the bat.



Because in those situations he didn't have to worry about half the things he needs to worry about in Sasuke's arsenal. He used summons to fight summons when he was drugged. He used summons to fight summons against Pain, and I'm not sure what Naruto has to do with this matchup. 

But If he summons against Sasuke those summons are liable to be put under Sasuke's control, killed by projectiles like wired Raiton Fuma Shuriken (imagine a toad attempting to deflect the shuriken with its sword only for Sasuke to channel Raiton chakra through it at the last moment), speared by Chidori Spear/Susano'o Arrows, or burnt by Enton. After that Jiraiya is going to be less willing to bring out his toads if they're just going to be sacrifices. He desummoned Gamaken right before Pain's summon rammed him due in part to that same reasoning.




> Plus SM Jiraiya is very fast u know ?



So is Sasuke. 



> He is not gonna do those things slowly..



Except that Sasuke also has the Sharingan, and Jiraiya's not faster than what Sasuke can track with it.



> And Toads can leap hundreds of meters high so he can perform attack from out of Sasuke's range..



If Jiraiya is going to be performing his attacks from so far away that it's outside Sasuke's range, then Sasuke can just dodge it. In this case he could either summon his hawk or Aoda to move out of the way. Then both Jiraiya and the toad(s) become easy targets for Susano'o arrows whilst they're freefalling.




> You used these two MS assets for almost every incidents that cause by Jiraiya.



Because the topic of the discussion was Susano'o's ability to handle Jiraiya's arsenal. You may also notice I mentioned other alternatives like his wired shuriken, Chidori variants, genjutsu and Kirin; the first three being options that MS Sasuke has used often. And the problem here is that most of the counters I gave would likely end up with either Jiraiya or his summons dead, or Jiraiya in a position to be taken out by Sasuke's followup attacks.



> What about Stamina & Pain ? There is no Gaara, Zetsu, Obito, Karin, Suigetsu and Jugo for savin him. and without these chars Sasuke would been dead 3-4 times in Five Kage Summit.



But this isn't Five Kage Summit Sasuke. This is a fully healthy "MS Sasuke". A Sasuke more capable than the one who was in agony just from manifesting Ribcage Susano'o. And the problem here is that you're assuming Jiraiya is going to attempt a strategy, come off scot free from Sasuke's answer to it, and then go straight into another one to wear him down. But you haven't accounted for the fact that:

1. Jiraiya has no knowledge that Sasuke has MS.
2. Jiraiya has no knowledge on Susano'o's different forms, much less its durability levels.
3. Jiraiya has no knowledge on Susano'o arrows and Enton _at all_.
4. Jiraiya has no knowledge on some of Sasuke's other tricks, like the hawk summon, wired Raiton Shuriken, rigged Fuma Shuriken, Chidori variants like Chidori Senbon and Chidori Spear, and Kirin.

And so there's no reason for him to be going for so many OOC strategies until Sasuke uses these techniques at least once. Examples of this include using 3 toads for Toad Oil Flame Bullet (who are also going to be both in the air and conveniently outside Sasuke's range) when he doesn't know if 1 would be enough. Or using 3 toads for Food Cart Destroyer. Or bringing out a whole swamp for Sasuke when he's used a human sized swamp for human sized targets before. 

Why would an IC Jiraiya feel like it is necessary for him to go for tactics like this at the start? He's never summoned 3 boss toads against anyone, yet he will do so now against Sasuke when he didn't even do so against the Rinnegan?



> Why he didnt use amaterasu on Onoki or Mei ?



Against Mei he was tired and damaged having just come from fighting A, Gaara and co, and had to keep his Susano'o version up to the new form he had apparently just unlocked so he wouldn't melt to death.

Against Onoki all of the above applies.

This isn't all that relevant against Jiraiya seeing that the Sasuke here wasn't stated to be Five Kage Summit Sasuke.


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## The Great One (Sep 5, 2017)

Are people really arguing for Sasuke here?

SM Jiraya destroys MS Sasuke within a minuse.

Frog Smokescreen + Frog call + Yomi numa = good bie Sasuke.

Frog Smokescreen + Fire/oil combo = you have a roster sasuke.

Frog smokescreen + Yomi numa + fire/oil combo = dead Sasuke.

And MS Sasuke's arrows has no better feat then merely piercing iron bridge, Jiraya's hair jutsu tanks it 10/10.

And no pein fight Naruto was no were near SM Jiraya, while Naruto had better SM... Jiraya with his arsenal of jutsus stomps him.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Zero890 (Sep 5, 2017)

Jiraiya wins

Amaterasu is counteracted by the sensory ability of Jiraiya and his increased reactions (the databook gives these abilities, it is totally irrefutable).

Genjutsu is denied the transfer of Chakra, Jiraiya should also be able to go out by himself

Susano loses against Yomi numa, Yatai kuzuchi or Frog song

Jiraiya from medium to high difficulty, if you start on base you would have many more chances to lose

pd: I do not speak English, I have to translate. try to understand as much as possible what I say

Reactions: Useful 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 5, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> 1. Jiraiya has no knowledge that Sasuke has MS.
> 2. Jiraiya has no knowledge on Susano'o's different forms, much less its durability levels.
> 3. Jiraiya has no knowledge on Susano'o arrows and Enton _at all_.
> 4. Jiraiya has no knowledge on some of Sasuke's other tricks, like the hawk summon, wired Raiton Shuriken, rigged Fuma Shuriken, Chidori variants like Chidori Senbon and Chidori Spear, and Kirin.


Jiraiya had no knowledge about Pain too. Which is a fight that he started as base not SM.

But he defeated 3 of' em w/o any injury and still able take on of 'em down while his arm ripped off. and he is also easily restrain and capture an akatsuki member like Konan (that means 5 paths in my book) and Sasuke no near to Pain.

And people from all around the world has far more knowledge about sharingan and mangekyô sharingan more than rinnegan. Most of the shinobies doesnt know each others abilities... Knowledge is the most important thing in the series. But Sasuke also aint know nothing about Jiraiya, his traps, his versatility. Jiraiya is far more experienced than him and already faced with Itachi and even sealed an amaterasu for researchng so now he has knowledge about Amaterasu and MS ..

If Danzo succeed to land paralyzing seal on Sasuke ? Jiraiya can do the same by himself or with a gamadaira decoy.. And he can turn Sasuke to a freaking frog in this situation. So Sasuke not the only one full with tricks.

So coming up with "Chidori Nagashi / Enton / Susano" with everything aint gonna save Sasuke.. It didnt per canon each kage give his lesson to him and even against Danzo Karin's guidance and Tobi's (who is known as Madara by Danzo)  existence helped a lot. Cuz of that Danzo aint wanna use Koto and he even do math about his all movements in terms of durability and stamina cuz he preapares himself for Tobi. (Like he decided to use a simple kick for Karin and even really tought about that)

Even under these circumstances Danzo forced Sasuke to high diff battle. (Whom is no near to a Sage in terms of physicall attiributes and no near to Jiraiya in terms of versatility)

So took down 5 paths w/o any knowledge or prep and get a phrase like "he would win w/o our secret" >>> Asspulled by each Kage when you had massive support back-up and then having hard times against 72 y/o Danzo who is inferior to Old Hiruzen per canon and per DB.

I think there is a tier differency imo.


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## The Great One (Sep 5, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> It took an enhanced Fuuton hitting Sasuke from behind to breach his humanoid Susano'o. Danzo never breached Susano'o from in front, where its shield is. And here Sasuke can use V4/armored Susano'o.
> 
> It's not about the number of clones. Kakashi was never seen using multiple Raikiris along with more than 1 clone. Same applies with Minato and Rasengan. The only one seen using multiple Rasengans at that size with clones is Naruto, and he's the exception due to his ridiculous chakra levels (from being Kurama's jin and an Uzumaki).
> 
> ...


Jiraya uses toad smokescreen to block Sasuke's view then frog call then Yomi numa and then fire/oli combo.

And Sasuke is dead.

Sasuke uses Amaterasu from beginning ma & pa uses smokescreen to block Sasuke's vision and then frog call to make him immobile while Jiraya puts fire away with his fire sealing method.

After that Sasuke is dead.

Sasuke uses susanoo arrow SM jiraya dodges it just like half dead Danzo did.

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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 5, 2017)

Gotta love how threads like this can exist when


This
This
This 
This
This
This
This
AND THIS also exist


Manga isnt clear enough with over half a dozen concrete in your face statements i guess

Tune in next week when earth style beats lightning style in the elemental wheel

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2 | Informative 1


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 5, 2017)

I think Jiraiya and Itachi were still a bit stronger than MS/SM Sasuke/Naruto , due to just better base , exp and in Naruto's case not being able to stay in SM a long time , and we see with Sasuke because he lacked the same battle sense as Itachi went blind much faster Sasuke/Naruto surpassed their benchmarks by gaining more raw power with KCM/EMS respectfully to overcompensate for their lack of experience Sasuke would lose to Itachi with MS therefore he would lose to Jiraiya as well but both is probably extreme diff

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## The Great One (Sep 5, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Gotta love how threads like this can exist when
> 
> 
> This
> ...


Mud = Earth + Water.
Lightning only beats earth but water still keeps earth wet so Sasuke still drowns in Yomi numa.

And Sasuke was unable to counter Danzo's wind jutsus.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 5, 2017)

Eliyua23 said:


> I think Jiraiya and Itachi were still a bit stronger than MS/SM Sasuke/Naruto , due to just better base , exp and in Naruto's case not being able to stay in SM a long time , and we see with Sasuke because he lacked the same battle sense as Itachi went blind much faster Sasuke/Naruto surpassed their benchmarks by gaining more raw power with KCM/EMS respectfully to overcompensate for their lack of experience Sasuke would lose to Itachi with MS therefore he would lose to Jiraiya as well but both is probably extreme diff




This is just a roundabout way of saying "I have no idea how I can say Jiraiya win against Sasuke using feats so I'll just use a roundabout way of comparing Jiraiya to Itachi instead so Jiraiya can win against Sasuke" 

SM Naruto was stated to have surpassed SM Jiraiya - multiple times. 

MS Sasuke was never stated nor implied to have surpassed MS Itachi at all until he achieved EMS. Even WITH EMS Itachi still outperformed him. 

Last time I checked, SM Naruto is supposedly = MS Sasuke after the Danzo fight. Using such logic, MS Sasuke is automatically superior to SM Jiraiya. 


MS Itachi > SM Naruto/MS Sasuke > SM Jiraiya


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 5, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This


That also include Minato and no one belives that but somehow when its comes to J-Man it became a fact ?  

And if you're gonna decide to make a case like that then look carefully at this one.

Due to Tsunade Naruto is stronger than Pain. The fact that Tsunade aint had any knowledge about Naruto's improvement as sage. But the main theme of that arc is "Never Give Up" and "Believe" 
This is why Jiraiya died, this is why Tsunade shook of Konoha Elders for, This is why not even one person didnt give info about Naruto to Pain. etc, etc...
And in reality we all know w/o Minato,Kyuubi, Grand Knowledge, Katsuyu Guidance, Pain's not killing mindset and Plot Naruto killed by Pain dozens of time

So Tsunade belivies that Naruto become a child of propechy and that makes him directly better than Pain.. She didnt know Naruto's stats or abilities yet. So Fukasaku's statements is also about Naruto's improvement from nothing thru become a hero.. Otherwise Rookie 5 min limited SM Naruto cant beat Minato we all know that. So same thing can be said for Jiraiya.

And even w/o these theme / ideological facts. Base Naruto has bigger chakra reserves and has better healin / durability than Base Jiraiya
and we all know that this is a huge plus for being Sage, thats why Orochimaru kept search a proper body and thats why Kabuto steal Orochimaru's dna and body parts and even he said "that was necessary to my improvement, My body is orochimaru-sama's body" ...

So better physical attiributes, chakra reserves and resillient makes you better candidate for being Sage. And spiritually you need to be stubborn and gutsy due to Fukasaku. So Naruto both has these physical and mental advantages for being sage and he is also Main Character so his supremacy (at least in time) over his mentor is certain .. And thats why Naruto's nature energy control is better. But Pain Arc SM Naruto aint better Sage Warrior. Why ?

Due to Fukasaku, Naruto mastered at basics of sage techs and able to manipulate nature energy. But still an imperfect sage. 

Fukasaku says "Fullest Extent" about their Amphiqiue Mode (Jiraiya's mode). And even better nature energy gatherer and controller like Naruto need Toads for being perfect at "fullest extent of the toad sage mode".

So Fuksaku offers his support as he did for Jiraiya before. But thanks to Kyuubi this combination failed and this is Naruto's reaction to that failure. He is saw as all training as a waste of time cuz the lack of Fukasaku's support !..

So, Naruto has better control on energy but Pain Arc SM Naruto aint good at sharing nature energy with clones and aint good at keepin SM for serious period of time. 

So Jiraiya aint those problems, has more senpo jutsus, definitely far more versatile, has more experience, Maybe aint has any jutsu destructive as SFRS but Naruto aint has anything like Senpo: Goemon. 

Naruto starts to find a solution about timing problem on Sage Mode and try to pull nature energy while he is moving around.
Which is an impossible task to do but Jiraiya able to summon Ma & Pa under similar circumstances. So thats makes Jiraiya better maintaining Sage Mode. Maybe Naruto get in faster but he need prep (clones at myobokuzan or hiding somewhere and keep still for gathering SM) Jiraiya aint need prep or aint need to be still. 

Even Fuksaku says in naruto position you need support (bunch of other ninjas) to create time for gettin in SM. Thats the risk of Naruto's SM which is why his SM not more safe or solid than Jiraiya's.

And people love to tought like "Jiraiya cant get in SM w/o Elder Toads, Toads are his SM tickets" 

No ! He can get in SM w/o them and even then he was still one of the best at it due to Fukasaku. But with elder toads Jiraiya acheives final form of toad sage. 
And Fuksaku explains that 

So Fukasaku saw The Amphibique Toad Sage Art as an obligation even for SM Naruto who is stated as better than Jiraiya (which is not as a warrior but as Nature Energy Maintainer actually)

So due to Tsunade (who knows nothing about Naruto improvement and preparation) Naruto is stronger than Pain.

But even with great knowledge, with great support (2 elder and 3 boss toads) and with great preparation (5+5+5+5 minutes SM due to Clones at Myoboku) he is still needed Minato and Kyuubi's asistance against weakened Deva.

But same Nagato accepted the fact that he could ever win against Jiraiya if they hasnt keep their secret. And even Obito shocked about how Jiraiya forced "Unbeatable Pain" that much and give his credits to him.


So in the end you guys keep tryin to say PA Rookie SM Naruto = MS SAsuke > SM Jiraiya but the results aint even close to that outcome.

Naruto with far better support, knowledge, advantages and preparation still needed 2 miracle in one day to beat Pain. But same Pain saw Jiraiya as hs roughly equal ?! (when Jiraiya didnt even use kawazu kumite)

And about MS Sasuke.. Jiraiya portrayed as superior of Itachi (closely) and MS Itachi prooved many times he is superior to MS Sasuke ..


So how Jiraiya (who superior of Itachi and rougly equal to Pain) somehow become a fodder for Sasuke just cuz SM naruto said "We die if will try to battle !! It doesnt even make sense at all.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 5, 2017)

@Sapherosth If this manga so funny for you then dont read or talk about. Cuz my post that only contain manga quotes and feats.. I didnt even make a comment on that ı just compared different quotes and praises. And ıf that too funny then you shouldnt even debate in this forum logically..


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 5, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> This is just a roundabout way of saying "I have no idea how I can say Jiraiya win against Sasuke using feats so I'll just use a roundabout way of comparing Jiraiya to Itachi instead so Jiraiya can win against Sasuke"
> 
> SM Naruto was stated to have surpassed SM Jiraiya - multiple times.
> 
> ...



When did they ever say Sasuke surpassed Itachi within the manga , but we did hear them say he surpassed him with Enton usage and we see him develop some of the same MS techs by the end of the Danzo Arc , yes the manga said Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in Sage Mode but that was before the 5 minute time limit and Kurama's interference came into play at that time Jiraiya could stay in SM longer than Naruto and also still has a stronger base Mode than Naruto 

If we're taking manga statements at face value then why ignore the manga saying Itachi=Jiraiya

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## Android (Sep 5, 2017)

Ablaze said:


> It is interesting how Jiraiya fans want to tell us about how kishi may have changed his mind or utter retcon when Jiraiya's abilities are in question. This is in relation to the sage sensei and frog katas that he didn't show during his fight agains't pein, but the 4th DB has stated he has. Yet they are the first to refer all the way back to part one, specifically Kisame's statement, (which btw applies to all 3 sannins and not just Jiraiya) and not acknowledge that Perhaps Kisame's strength may have also been retcon in part 2. For example, i doubt Kishi having kisame merge with Samahada is something he thought of in part one.


Because they are basing their claim on actual canon source (the Data book), they aren't using their subjective interpretation of what they read in the manga like Kisame's supporters love to do. 
Nothing indicates any changes regarding the part one srateme. Kisame showed some new techniques, but that pretty much applys to 90% of the characters, including Jiraiya himself.
In fact the part one statement was proved even more during part two of the story, when Jiraiya was getting praised by Pain, Zetsu and Obito, Kisame was still Itachi's sidekick.

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## Sapherosth (Sep 5, 2017)

Eliyua23 said:


> When did they ever say Sasuke surpassed Itachi within the manga , but we did hear them say he surpassed him with Enton usage and we see him develop some of the same MS techs by the end of the Danzo Arc , yes the manga said Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in Sage Mode but that was before the 5 minute time limit and Kurama's interference came into play at that time Jiraiya could stay in SM longer than Naruto and also still has a stronger base Mode than Naruto
> 
> If we're taking manga statements at face value then why ignore the manga saying Itachi=Jiraiya




Exactly....You don't hear Sasuke surpassing Itachi but we as readers know for a fact that EMS surpasses the MS. It's common sense. Even then Itachi displayed the ability to outshine EMS Sasuke and various other high-tier characters. 



Pain literally outright stated that Naruto was the* first person *who pushed Pain this far. And that was without Deva's interference just like Jiraiya. From this alone, it's already obvious that Naruto was superior to Jiraiya. 



As for taking statements at face value - Jiraiya can take on all of Akatsuki. Is that what you actually believe?


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 5, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Pain literally outright stated that Naruto was the* first person *who pushed Pain this far


Yeah but he did that with knowledge, with more support, with preparation (days over) and even then he still needed Minato and Kyuubi he hunted after 5th path w/ ease.

On the otherside Jiraiya still able to took one of 'em while he aint able to use hand seals and proper taijutsu (via ripped off arm) And total number he take down 3+1 Path + Konan. 

So they've similar scores but Jiraiya has more disadvantages so thats why Jiraiya's performance is not far from Naruto's in terms of "pushing Pain far":  And people like Obito, Nagato and Black Zetsu also clarified that.

And you guys better consider the fact that Naruto is the main character and Naruto Vs Pain is a fight that represents The Clash of The Childs of The Prophecy ..

Of course naruto gotta mentioned as "bigger deal" .. But general results and feats shows the fact that PA SM Naruto aint clear superior to Jiraiya. (at least not as all)


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 5, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Exactly....You don't hear Sasuke surpassing Itachi but we as readers know for a fact that EMS surpasses the MS. It's common sense. Even then Itachi displayed the ability to outshine EMS Sasuke and various other high-tier characters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He also outperformed KCM Naruto is he stronger than him to and while Itachi was inpressive it wasn't a fight based upon raw power but it was a carefully crafted plan in which Itachi tried to end Edo Tensei without killing Kabuto , Itachi took the lead while Sasuke played support and Itachi also has more knowledge of what Kabuto can do with SM

If Sasuke surpassing Itachi was never stated then how can you compare it to Naruto/Jiraiya , only comparison we got was to enton and when alive we saw Sasuke have the exact same MS abilities that Itachi had , Itachi better with Gen , Sasuke better with Enton 

Yeah because Naruto had more prep time and knowledge , Jiraiya had it harder as he had to infiltrate Rain and come up with a plan on the spot and still was so impressive Pain said he would've lost 

It was never stated in the manga Jiraiya could beat all of the atakuski , what was stated that backup wouldn't matter  in this case but we don't know the backup Itachi was considering since all of the atakuski were on their own missions it wouldn't make sense for him to talk about them

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## Braiyan (Sep 6, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Jiraiya had no knowledge about Pain too. Which is a fight that he started as base not SM.
> 
> But he defeated 3 of' em w/o any injury



With Frog Song. In a favourable location. When those Paths used 0 ranged attacks. Or attacks as fast as Susano'o Arrows/Amaterasu. 

That example is not equivalent with this matchup.



> and he is also easily restrain and capture an akatsuki member like Konan



Due to knowledge on her abilities and having a jutsu capable of one-shotting her. Not relevant in this matchup.



> And people from all around the world has far more knowledge about sharingan and mangekyô sharingan more than rinnegan. Most of the shinobies doesnt know each others abilities... Knowledge is the most important thing in the series. But Sasuke also aint know nothing about Jiraiya, his traps, his versatility.



He knows Jiraiya tends to use toad summons and that he's Naruto's master. Everything else he can handle in battle thanks to his abilities.



> Jiraiya is far more experienced than him and already faced with Itachi and even sealed an amaterasu for researchng so now he has knowledge about Amaterasu and MS ..



But no knowledge that Sasuke has MS, Susano'o's durability levels, Susano'o arrows, and Enton. So my point still stands.




> If Danzo succeed to land paralyzing seal on Sasuke ? Jiraiya can do the same by himself



Danzo got killed in order to place that seal ...



> And he can turn Sasuke to a freaking frog in this situation.





... Are you seriously implying that a transformation jutsu used to intimidate fodder is somehow going to oneshot MS Sasuke? Is that why Jiraiya never used that technique against any serious opponent? Despite laying hands on Rinnegan users like Human Path multiple times? So Jiraiya had a death wish?




> So coming up with "Chidori Nagashi / Enton / Susano" with everything aint gonna save Sasuke.. It didnt per canon each kage give his lesson to him



Raikage tanked Sasuke's strongest Raiton outside Kirin, which made Nagashi a non-factor. Even then, he still lost an arm and would have taken himself out (along with possibly Sasuke) had the fight continued.
Gaara failed to breach Susano'o at all, even with help.
Mei never had to face Enton, thanks to Sasuke depleting his stamina unlocking a new form of Susano'o and fighting the other kages. Same with Onoki.

And Five Kage Summit Sasuke is once again not the same as this Sasuke, considering this Sasuke presumably has his feats from the Danzo fight. Danzo fight Sasuke never had trouble manifesting a Ribcage. Danzo Fight Sasuke's Susano'o actually has ranged projectiles. Danzo fight Sasuke has two whole Susano'o forms over FKS Sasuke.



> Even under these circumstances Danzo forced Sasuke to high diff battle. (Whom is no near to a Sage in terms of physicall attiributes and no near to Jiraiya in terms of versatility)



Jiraiya can't respawn for 10 minutes so I don't know what this has to do with anything.



> So took down 5 paths w/o any knowledge or prep and get a phrase like "he would win w/o our secret" >>> Asspulled by each Kage when you had massive support back-up and then having hard times against 72 y/o Danzo who is inferior to Old Hiruzen per canon and per DB.
> 
> I think there is a tier differency imo.



All of this fails to address how Jiraiya actually deals with Sasuke's moveset.




Batzzaro29 said:


> Jiraya uses toad smokescreen to block Sasuke's view then frog call then Yomi numa and then fire/oli combo.
> 
> And Sasuke is dead.



How are you going to reply to a message to talk about stuff that was addressed already?

Susano'o will tank Goemon easily considering Mei's Yoton did nothing to it. From there Sasuke can burn Goemon with Ama and either turn it against Jiraiya thanks to Enton, or use that and a Katon in the air to set up Kirin. And Yomi Numa, assuming it's not eradicated from Jiraiya firing a Katon + Fuuton + oil combo at it, can be countered with Chidori Nagashi.





> Sasuke uses Amaterasu from beginning ma & pa uses smokescreen to block Sasuke's vision and then frog call to make him immobile while Jiraya puts fire away with his fire sealing method.





Braiyan said:


> So Jiraiya is going to pull out a scroll, write up a sealing formula, and perform the handsigns to seal Amaterasu ... while on fire.







> After that Sasuke is dead.



From ... what exactly?



> Sasuke uses susanoo arrow SM jiraya dodges it just like half dead Danzo did.



You're right. Danzo totally dodged that arro-

*Spoiler*: __ 








He never felt it was too fast to dodg-

*Spoiler*: __ 








Didn't even need Izana-

*Spoiler*: __ 








And other speedsters were dodging the arrows just fin-

*Spoiler*: __ 








So yeah, Jiraiya should dodge it just like Danzo did. Right through his chest.

Reactions: Like 4


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## The Great One (Sep 6, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> With Frog Song. In a favourable location. When those Paths used 0 ranged attacks. Or attacks as fast as Susano'o Arrows/Amaterasu.
> 
> That example is not equivalent with this matchup.
> 
> ...


Transformation jutsu was hax that's why Jiraya never used it, Kishi do it all time he creates a hax jutsu and either nerfs it of never uses again.

And there is no evidence that MS Sasuke can counter Jiraya turning him into a frog.

And those arrows were dodged by an 70+ half dead old man, Jiraya can simply tank it with his lion mane and beat Sasuke with his own arrow.

So no Jiraya does not even need to dodge if those fodder arrows were unable to Pierce some bridge as pictures above showing.

Are you really comparing Danzo with SM Jiraya?

And during Shippuden MS and its abilities are common knowledge if ninja's from cloud knows about it then some one like Jiraya as well.

And how Sasuke is doing all of those things you've listed while he was unable see and constantly getting barraged by frog call.

And all of Jiraya's jutsus are summon sized which can one shot a summon instantly.

Jiraya has access to jutsu which made EMS Sasuke unable to move.

And about chidori nagashi, how Sasuke is using that is he is constantly getting hit by Frog Call? And not to mention Sasuke was unable counter Danzo's wind?

OK Danzo did not dodged it but who cares? Lion Mane can tank it which is said to be stronger then steel but Sasuke's arrow was unable to Pierce bricks.

And steel > bricks.

Jiraya gets hit by Amaterasu, Ma & Pa uses smokescreen & frog call combo to pin sasuke down while Jiraya puts out fire but MS Sasuke never starts with Amaterasu anyways.

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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 6, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> Are you seriously implying that a transformation jutsu used to intimidate fodder is somehow going to oneshot MS Sasuke? Is that why Jiraiya never used that technique against any serious opponent? Despite laying hands on Rinnegan users like Human Path multiple times? So Jiraiya had a death wish?


Why are you try to speculate... That jutsu one from his arsenal.. Its there, it is available and he could use if he find an chance for it. Using on fodder aint changes the mechanics of the jutsu after all. 


Braiyan said:


> All of this fails to address how Jiraiya actually deals with Sasuke's moveset.


Why ? Suddenly Sasuke become a speedster ? Jiraiya has physical attiributes of a sage and has 2 type of sensing. Pain Paths  were good at tangling with speedy chars like Pain Arc Kakashi and SM Naruto and Jiraiya also couple of time blitz' em. So why now suddenly Jiraiya becomes a turtle and Sasuke a rabbit ?! 


Braiyan said:


> So yeah, Jiraiya should dodge it just like Danzo did. Right through his chest.


Danzo didnt dodge cuz he has Izanagi and when he have to dodge he may not able to dodge but able to block and even created a giant mokuton tree in the process so Susano Arrows are not that fast. And Danzo is 72 y/o old man. And FKS Kakashi aint a speedster.

SM Jiraiya faster and reflexive than both characters. And each usage of MS techs gonna make sasuke weaker. 

So in the end Sasuke gonna win cuz you're saying "a hokage level sage who portrayed as roughly equal to The Head of akatsuki has no ability or skillset to face with Itachi's inferior cuz of his MS projectiles which has only succeed feats on a 72 y/o man"

Yeah make sense


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 6, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Are people really arguing for Sasuke here?



Yes, what's more shocking is people think Jiraiya has a shot.



> SM Jiraya destroys MS Sasuke within a minuse.



Bold words.



> Frog Smokescreen + Frog call + Yomi numa = good bie Sasuke.
> 
> Frog Smokescreen + Fire/oil combo = you have a roster sasuke.
> 
> Frog smokescreen + Yomi numa + fire/oil combo = dead Sasuke.



Frog call, so your argument relies on Fukasaku and Shima _detaching _from Jiraiya (which immediately takes him out of SM) to take him on? With that combo, the smoke screen can be taken out with Amaterasu/Kagutsuchi. Yomi Numa gets owned by Sasuke's Raiton. Or Sasuke can use his Doujutsu to see behind the smoke screen and use his Katon (the one which can change the weather) to roast all 3.

Fire-oil combo can meet Susanoo whose lower forms could handle actual lava and acid jutsu.

The last combo is countered by Susanoo. Which is bad when Sasuke can actually use jutsu within Susanoo. In fact, as Sasuke and Madara showed, Susanoo itself can use jutsu. 



> And MS Sasuke's arrows has no better feat then merely piercing iron bridge, Jiraya's hair jutsu tanks it 10/10.



It went through Mokuton. Enough said. Want a bonus? He can use Enton Arrows if he wants.



> And no pein fight Naruto was no were near SM Jiraya, while Naruto had better SM... Jiraya with his arsenal of jutsus stomps him.



The manga disagrees with you: Tsunade, Fukasaku and Pain all disagree with you.



Batzzaro29 said:


> Mud = Earth + Water.
> Lightning only beats earth but water still keeps earth wet so Sasuke still drowns in Yomi numa.
> 
> And Sasuke was unable to counter Danzo's wind jutsus.



Earth + water = wood. Yomi Numa is a earth jutsu and if you read the databook 3 entry on elements, Yomi Numa does what earth jutsu does... Raiton will own it.

Wasting chakra to counter wind jutsu wasn't priority when Sasuke needed to outlast Izanagi.

Reactions: Like 4


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## The Great One (Sep 6, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yes, what's more shocking is people think Jiraiya has a shot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah its shocking to see Sasuke wank.

Why should toad elders need to detach from Jiraya's shoulder? Thay can perform jutsu while in his shoulder. Lol Sharingan cant look behind smoke even if he does Amaterasu depends on vision.

Hashirama Mokuton >>>>>>>>>>>>> Danzo Mokuton.

MS Sasuke did not have feats of using Enton arrow even if he does lion mane can tank it and jiraya can shreds his hair.

Pein ark Naruto is only strong in by hype not by feats Jiraya is far more versatile, Naruto does not have answer to half of Jiraya's arsenal.

Oil/Fire combo > acid Mei used on Sasuke, Jiraya creates pond of fire and MS Sasuke's susanoo has no protection below, Jiraya's fire jutsu is going to blow up Susanoo from Sasuke, his fires can one shot summons.

MS Sasuke Susanoo has no feat of using jutsu.

And Sasuke did not took out Danzo's smokescreen either which <<<<<<<<< Elder smokescreen.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 6, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Yeah its shocking to see Sasuke wank.



At this point, it is just Jiraiya wank. Jiraiya vs Itachi, they're comparable, I get it. Against MS Sasuke? That's just desperate.



> Why should toad elders need to detach from Jiraya's shoulder? Thay can perform jutsu while in his shoulder. Lol Sharingan cant look behind smoke even if he does Amaterasu depends on vision.



They chose to move away from Naruto too. Unless you think a deaf Jiraiya will be efficient. Someone missed Deidara vs Sasuke. Amaterasu depends on vision to an extend, but Kagutsuchi doesn't. 



> Hashirama Mokuton >>>>>>>>>>>>> Danzo Mokuton.



Both those Mokuton>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jiraiya's hair. 



> MS Sasuke did not have feats of using Enton arrow even if he does lion mane can tank it and jiraya can shreds his hair.



EMS Sasuke is basically MS Sasuke with superior prediction, perfect sight and PS. Everything else, MS Sasuke can do. Sasuke could manipulate Enton and ITT he's not testing his powers like with Danzo. Jiraya can think lion mane tanks it because it burns him alive. It gets worse when you realise Sasuke can actually control those flames. 



> Pein ark Naruto is only strong in by hype not by feats Jiraya is far more versatile, Naruto does not have answer to half of Jiraya's arsenal.



Shared vision made Jiraiya run away, Naruto blitzed through it and against more bodies. Naruto did better in a situation harder than the one Jiraiya ran away from. Versatility means crap, Minato isn't versatile and he's>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jiraiya. Tsunade, Fukasaku and Pain didn't think Jiraiya's versatility made him superior to Naruto. 

Pain arc Naruto with effort, could take out Jiraiya. Post-Pain arc SM Naruto would destroy him. 



> Oil/Fire combo > acid Mei used on Sasuke, Jiraya creates pond of fire and MS Sasuke's susanoo has no protection below, Jiraya's fire jutsu is going to blow up Susanoo from Sasuke, his fires can one shot summons.



Susanoo tanked actual acid, so some fire/oil isn't going to do much. Especially since Susanoo tanked lava. Susanoo has protection below, or did you just miss Madara vs Gokage?

Go on, tell me that you think Jiraiya's fire jutsu is stronger than lava jutsu and acid jutsu. 



> MS Sasuke Susanoo has no feat of using jutsu.



Unless you can find a fundamental reason as to why each Susanoo can't use jutsu, then you're stuck. Especially when you think frog call can be used while the toads are attached to Jiraiya. If you accept your own standard, your frog call strategy goes down the gutter. If you chose not to, then you've screwed yourself more as Susanoo using jutsu would utterly own Jiraiya.



> And Sasuke did not took out Danzo's smokescreen either which <<<<<<<<< Elder smokescreen.



Someone obviously didn't understand it when I said Sasuke's priority was outlasting Izanagi.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 6, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Yeah but he did that with knowledge, with more support, with preparation (days over) and even then he still needed Minato and Kyuubi he hunted after 5th path w/ ease.
> 
> On the otherside Jiraiya still able to took one of 'em while he aint able to use hand seals and proper taijutsu (via ripped off arm) And total number he take down 3+1 Path + Konan.



He only needed Kyuubi...Minato did fuck all apart from bring Naruto back to human form. 

And also, Naruto took them on - DEFEATED 5 of them before he needed Kyuubi. That alone is further than Jiraiya. 


As for people saying Naruto had knowledge advantage,  last time I checked, Jiraiya learned about the abilities of 5 of the paths and still couldn't do shit about it either. Even if he knew at the start of battle like Naruto did it wouldn't have changed the outcome because he hasn't got the abilities. 


Hell Pain actually had it easy considering he has knowledge on frog song in the fight against Naruto so he countered it with ease.









Eliyua23 said:


> He also outperformed KCM Naruto is he stronger than him to and while Itachi was inpressive it wasn't a fight based upon raw power but it was a carefully crafted plan in which Itachi tried to end Edo Tensei without killing Kabuto , Itachi took the lead while Sasuke played support and Itachi also has more knowledge of what Kabuto can do with SM



KCM Naruto being stronger than Itachi is debatable. 

Your point about Itachi having more knowledge on Kabuto than Sasuke is absolute trash. How the hell would Itachi know of the Sound 4/Taka's abilities?  Sasuke knew of all of them. 



> If Sasuke surpassing Itachi was never stated then how can you compare it to Naruto/Jiraiya , only comparison we got was to enton and when alive we saw Sasuke have the exact same MS abilities that Itachi had , Itachi better with Gen , Sasuke better with Enton



It was implied in the manga that obtaining an EMS surpasses an MS. It's pretty much COMMON SENSE. Also, Sasuke STATED that he could feel Itachi's powers flowing into him. You'd have to be in denial to say that it doesn't imply that Sasuke surpassed Itachi when he obtained EMS. 





> Yeah because Naruto had more prep time and knowledge , Jiraiya had it harder as he had to infiltrate Rain and come up with a plan on the spot and still was so impressive Pain said he would've lost




Bollocks. 

Even after Jiraiya learned of all the path's abilities he couldn't do shit. Naruto's "prep" was literally only SM which was something Naruto could have easily replicated if he was only facing Animal path prior to entering SM. 




> It was never stated in the manga Jiraiya could beat all of the atakuski , what was stated that backup wouldn't matter  in this case but we don't know the backup Itachi was considering since all of the atakuski were on their own missions it wouldn't make sense for him to talk about them




Once again, bollocks. 

Who else could have been backups for Akatsuki members apart from other Akatsuki's? 

Even IF you want to use that statement as a way of saying Itachi=Jiraiya, Kisame right after witnessing Jiraiya actually QUESTIONED why Itachi retreated, meaning he viewed Itachi as superior.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 6, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Naruto took them on - DEFEATED 5 of them before he needed Kyuubi


With knowledge and guidance and better support way better preparation. Which is already stated by nagato clearly in similar scenario Jiraiya would beat'em.


Sapherosth said:


> 5 of the paths and still couldn't do shit about it either.


He took 4 of 'em with Konan its 5 and Jiraiya learned in the battle.. Naruto already had. Thats why pain tricked Jiraiya and let him thinkin like "oh these 3 are the Pain and ı bested 'em now ı can go to home" then Pain strikes again.

So thanks to knowledge, support, prep and open space (in open space you can observe each path's ability better per canon.. This is how Naruto decided to take down Naraka before Preta or Deva after naraka revived Preta again.. He had a chance to observe)


Sapherosth said:


> he has knowledge on frog song in the fight against Naruto so he countered it with ease.


Actually that happened cuz of 2 fact

one of them is knowledge like u said but the other is more critical.

Naruto aint able to fuse with Toads and thats makes' em vulnurable to any counter measures. But thanks to Amphiqiue Toad Sage Mode. Jiraiya and Elder Toads fused their bodies.. So Pain cant rip Fukasaku from Jiraiya's shoulder if he try he could eat a senpo tech on his face from either Jiraiya or Shima in the process..




Sapherosth said:


> KCM Naruto being stronger than Itachi is debatable.


And you signed the official paper that call as "Dont take me as a person seriously"


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 6, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> With Frog Song. In a favourable location. When those Paths used 0 ranged attacks. Or attacks as fast as Susano'o Arrows/Amaterasu.
> 
> That example is not equivalent with this matchup.
> 
> ...


Its a damn shame i cant "like" and "winner" a post

Because this is gold

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 6, 2017)

You'd think SM Jiraiya can move as fast as V2 Ay with some of these Jiraiya arguments.


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## The Great One (Sep 6, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> At this point, it is just Jiraiya wank. Jiraiya vs Itachi, they're comparable, I get it. Against MS Sasuke? That's just desperate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jiraya has access to same techs which made EMS Sasuke piss in his pants during Kabuto fight.

Why should Jiraya get deff? Does Sasuke burns his hand while using chidori? Does mei burns herself while using he acid? Jiraya is fused with elders he will already heve resistance to their attacks.

And MS Sasuke uses kagatsuchi only for defence never used in any of his battle as an offense.

lol that Mokuton has same durability as the bridge and Jiraya's hair said to be stronger then steel & last time I heard steel > concrete & bricks.

lol Jiraya can extend his hair or cut it up to get rid of Amaterasu & Sasuke has only shown controlling Amaterasu in close proximity and never in manga he controlled Ama 10-20m away.

Minato is bad example you give beginning of pt2 Naruto FTG and he solos everyone till Madara with his PS comes.

Jiraya's fire one shotted summon and Mei's acid never done shit & Madara used higher form of susanoo while he had Rinnegan and was a Edo and Madara's fight with gaara's division has showed in enough.

lol tell me when MS Sasuke's Susanoo actually have feat of using jutsu, and even if toads does jump Sasuke still gets pin down by frog call and Base Jiraya finish him of with Yomi numa.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 6, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Jiraya has access to same techs which made EMS Sasuke piss in his pants during Kabuto fight.



Such as?



> Why should Jiraya get deff? Does Sasuke burns his hand while using chidori? Does mei burns herself while using he acid? Jiraya is fused with elders he will already heve resistance to their attacks.



He has ears. The other examples you cited were people using their own chakra to create the jutsu. 



> And MS Sasuke uses kagatsuchi only for defence never used in any of his battle as an offense.



Desperate argument, we've seen Kagutsuchi used for offense. 



> lol that Mokuton has same durability as the bridge and Jiraya's hair said to be stronger then steel & last time I heard steel > concrete & bricks.



You're pulling facts out of your ass. The durability isn't the same, you just made that up so you can say Jiraiya's hair>Mokuton. 



> lol Jiraya can extend his hair or cut it up to get rid of Amaterasu & Sasuke has only shown controlling Amaterasu in close proximity and never in manga he controlled Ama 10-20m away.



You can't change how a jutsu works because Jiraiya will be owned. Sasuke can control it just fine, and he can even use Kagutsuchi to make it to a more efficient shape. Jiraiya's hair a crap counter to Amaterasu.



> Minato is bad example you give beginning of pt2 Naruto FTG and he solos everyone till Madara with his PS comes.



But he's not as versatile as Jiraiya though?! 



> Jiraya's fire one shotted summon and Mei's acid never done shit & Madara used higher form of susanoo while he had Rinnegan and was a Edo and Madara's fight with gaara's division has showed in enough.



You can harp onto feats only if you want and ignore logic if you like. However, Mei's lava and acid> Jiraiya's fire. 
For a guy who thinks Jiraiya's fire is superior to Mei's acid, you seem to be working hard to say Madara's Susanoo>Sasuke's. 
You need to prove that Madara's Rinnegan changed the fundamental working of Susanoo.



> lol tell me when MS Sasuke's Susanoo actually have feat of using jutsu, and even if toads does jump Sasuke still gets pin down by frog call and Base Jiraya finish him of with Yomi numa.



You're saying the toads can use the frog call without Jiraiya going deaf, yet you want to deny feats of Susanoo actually using jutsu?


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 6, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> And MS Sasuke uses kagatsuchi only for defence never used in any of his battle as an offense.


 


Batzzaro29 said:


> lol Jiraya can extend his hair or cut it up to get rid of Amaterasu & Sasuke has only shown controlling Amaterasu in close proximity and never in manga he controlled Ama 10-20m away.


He used his left eye ability to save Killer Bee who was dozens of meters away actually...

And no...That wasnt just amaterau being used to put out Amaterasu...Sasuke specifically calls his ability to extinguish ama a"another ability of the mangekyou"


Batzzaro29 said:


> Minato is bad example you give beginning of pt2 Naruto FTG and he solos everyone till Madara with his PS comes.


This is so wrong it hurts

Naruto has nowhere near the necessary reactions to use FTG effectively...BOS sasuke was shitblitzing him with no physical OR MENTAL reaction

FTG wouldnt help him if he still cant react

Hell SM narutos reaction time isnt as fast as minatos...


Batzzaro29 said:


> Jiraya's fire one shotted summon


When?


Batzzaro29 said:


> and Mei's acid never done shi


It burned through susanoo which tanked lava style no diff


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## Zero890 (Sep 6, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You'd think SM Jiraiya can move as fast as V2 Ay with some of these Jiraiya arguments.




It can not move like A4 but if you can dodge Amaterasu, your SM allows it there is nothing that can deny that because Jiraiya has increased reactions and sense of danger, does not need to be faster than A4 to avoid it (Naruto was slower than A3 and he could avoid it).


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## The Great One (Sep 6, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> He used his left eye ability to save Killer Bee who was dozens of meters away actually...
> 
> And no...That wasnt just amaterau being used to put out Amaterasu...Sasuke specifically calls his ability to extinguish ama a"another ability of the mangekyou"
> 
> ...


That panel is highly controversial and only panal where Sasuke uses controls Amaterasu away from him according to uchiha fans but seeing there is no feat of Sasuke using Kagastuchi after hitting a long renge target with Amaterasu, I will call it that was Gaara using his sand to block Amaterasu just as shown in anime.

Naruto needs no reaction, his clones discards the necessity of reaction, And that Naruto with FTG is going to turn that Sasuke into tomato sauce.

Sasuke extinguishing Amaterasu? Cool, now show me he using that ability as offence.

That was acid which anime got wrong


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## Eliyua23 (Sep 6, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> He only needed Kyuubi...Minato did fuck all apart from bring Naruto back to human form.
> 
> And also, Naruto took them on - DEFEATED 5 of them before he needed Kyuubi. That alone is further than Jiraiya.
> 
> ...



KCM Naruto is stronger than Itachi no debate about that his chakra was just depleted from sending out too many clones but his raw power outage alone showed he was superior 

Itachi has more knowledge on Edo Tensei and Sage Mode it was Itachi's mission to stop Edo so of course he took the lead and because of the no kill rule Sasuke really couldn't do much but play backup 

Right but it was never STATED in the manga even though it was obvious that's my point of it was all about abilities then why didn't Sasuke whom showed all of the abilities Itachi had even in the Kages Arc be considered to be on Itachi's level or beyond ? 

The problem with it being atakuski is the fact it was impossible to get them involved seeing. As how they were on their own missions capturing Bijuu and syncing with Gedo Medzo 

It's because Kisame knew nothing about Sage Mode while Itachi did from Kisame perspective it would've been base Jiraiya vs MS Itachi which wasn't the case


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## Braiyan (Sep 6, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Transformation jutsu was hax that's why Jiraya never used it, Kishi do it all time he creates a hax jutsu and either nerfs it of never uses again.
> 
> And there is no evidence that MS Sasuke can counter Jiraya turning him into a frog.



 well shit you got me there. Jiraiya > Kaguya confirmed.



> And those arrows were dodged by an 70+ half dead old man, Jiraya can simply tank it with his lion mane and beat Sasuke with his own arrow.



>Sees scans of Danzo not dodging Susano'o arrows.
>Claims he dodged them anyways
>Thinks Jiraiya has time to weave handsigns for Lion's Mane when Susano'o arrows were too fast for speedsters with the Sharingan to dodge.



> So no Jiraya does not even need to dodge if those fodder arrows were unable to Pierce some bridge as pictures above showing.



>Sees scans of Susano'o arrows piercing both Danzo and the bridge
>Sees scans of Susano'o arrows piercing through Mokuton and the bridge
>Claims it's a fodder jutsu that can't pierce a bridge



> Are you really comparing Danzo with SM Jiraya?



Yup.



> And during Shippuden MS and its abilities are common knowledge if ninja's from cloud knows about it then some one like Jiraya as well.



You mean the same cloud ninjas that went to Konoha for such knowledge? Knowledge that was about Itachi's MS and thus wouldn't include knowledge on Enton, Susano'o Arrows and Susano'o's various forms since Sasuke unlocked those after Jiraiya died?



> And how Sasuke is doing all of those things you've listed while he was unable see and constantly getting barraged by frog call.



So uh. If Ma and Pa are constantly using frog call as per your suggestion, then how exactly does Jiraiya use Goemon? And how does he stay in SM while they're away from him?

And why exactly would Sasuke be unable to use Susano'o while they're using the call? Frog Call is a close range jutsu by the way. Why wouldn't Sasuke be able to slash them out of the air before they start their call? Also, what proof do you have that they can keep up the call constantly? Don't they need to breathe?




> Jiraya has access to jutsu which made EMS Sasuke unable to move.



Which takes forever to set up and would get him killed well before he could get it off.



> And not to mention Sasuke was unable counter Danzo's wind?



You mean besides the time he countered his Fuuton enhancing summon? And Danzo got swatted for his troubles?



> OK Danzo did not dodged it but who cares? Lion Mane can tank it which is said to be stronger then steel but Sasuke's arrow was unable to Pierce bricks.
> 
> And steel > bricks.



But Susano'o Arrow pierced through the Mokuton tree whose roots would've had to pierce the bridge in order to stay upright, making it also > bricks.

And Arrows are very likely faster than the handseals Jiraiya would have to make for Lion's Mane anyways since Kakashi was forced to use Kamui. So ...



> Jiraya gets hit by Amaterasu, Ma & Pa uses smokescreen & frog call combo to pin sasuke down while Jiraya puts out fire but MS Sasuke never starts with Amaterasu anyways.



Gotcha. Sasuke never starts with Amaterasu, but Jiraiya is going to start with Yomi Numa, smokescreens and Frog Call. When Frog Call was never used while Jiraiya was alive, Yomi Numa only when he needed to buy time, and smokescreens only to retreat or attempt a sneak attack. Right, no hypocrisy here.






JiraiyaFlash said:


> Why are you try to speculate... That jutsu one from his arsenal.. Its there, it is available and he could use if he find an chance for it. Using on fodder aint changes the mechanics of the jutsu after all.



So in other words, Jiraiya had a death wish. Good to know.



> Why ? Suddenly Sasuke become a speedster ?



So ... now you're saying Sasuke is not a speedster?


*Spoiler*: __ 








^ This Sasuke?



> Jiraiya has physical attiributes of a sage and has 2 type of sensing. Pain Paths were good at tangling with speedy chars like Pain Arc Kakashi and SM Naruto and Jiraiya also couple of time blitz' em.



Oh Lord. Jiraiya is a speedster now since he blitzed Human Path once (nevermind he reacted to Jiraiya when he tried blitzing him again), but Sasuke being a speedster is somehow in dispute.



> So why now suddenly Jiraiya becomes a turtle and Sasuke a rabbit ?!



I think Jiraiya making two clones, summoning three toads, jumping in the air and launching a combined Toad Oil Flame Bullet all before Sasuke can do anything is ridiculous. Same with him jumping above Sasuke and using Food Cart Destroyer with three toads without being interrupted. Or pulling out a scroll to seal Amaterasu while burning from Amaterasu, while Sasuke is just standing there. Or crushing Susano'o with Lion's Mane without interruption. Or shooting off his burning hair as Senbon faster than Sasuke *can mentally react with Enton*.

If by that Jiraiya is seen as a turtle and Sasuke a rabbit, then ... 




> Danzo didnt dodge cuz he has Izanagi



But as per your own argument he was saving his strength to fight who he thought was Madara:



JiraiyaFlash said:


> even against Danzo Karin's guidance and Tobi's (who is known as Madara by Danzo) existence helped a lot. Cuz of that Danzo aint wanna use Koto and he even do math about his all movements in terms of durability and stamina cuz he preapares himself for Tobi. (Like he decided to use a simple kick for Karin and even really tought about that)



So if he's conserving his strength and has it within him to dodge Susano'o arrows, then there's no reason for him to keep Izanagi activated. Keeping Izanagi activated would only weaken him when he wants to fight Madara. And you're here saying the arrows aren't that fast so he should've been able to dodge them. So which is it?

Did Danzo need Izanagi to take on the arrows?
Or was he perfectly capable of dodging the arrows on his own, but kept Izanagi activated due to him suddenly becoming an idiot for 2 chapters?



> and when he have to dodge he may not able to dodge but able to block and even created a giant mokuton tree in the process so Susano Arrows are not that fast.



>Danzo literally states he can't weave seals to intercept the arrow in time
>Still claims the arrows are not that fast



> And FKS Kakashi aint a speedster.



You say this in the same comment as:



JiraiyaFlash said:


> Pain Paths were good at tangling with speedy chars like Pain Arc Kakashi



Pick one.




> SM Jiraiya faster and reflexive than both characters. And each usage of MS techs gonna make sasuke weaker.



And you have failed to mention how Jiraiya adequately deals with these techniques in a way that doesn't result in him dying, losing limbs/toads, or getting trapped into being hit by an arrow.

Also, Kirin.



> So in the end Sasuke gonna win cuz you're saying "a hokage level sage who portrayed as roughly equal to The Head of akatsuki has no ability or skillset to face with Itachi's inferior cuz of his MS projectiles which has only succeed feats on a 72 y/o man"



Raikage lost his hand to Enton. And was possibly going to lose his life. Not a 72 year old man.
Kakashi admitted the arrows were too fast to dodge. Not a 72 year old man.

And this portrayal argument would have some weight if Sasuke were to fight the same way Pain did, in the same location he did. But he doesn't. So it's irrelevant.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 6, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> That panel is highly controversial and only panal where Sasuke uses controls Amaterasu away from him


What exactly makes it controversial???

Its a blatant feat of him doing something with kagutsuchi you said he couldnt do...Controlling the black flames at a distance

How is that controversial?


Batzzaro29 said:


> I will call it that was Gaara using his sand to block Amaterasu just as shown in anime.


Then youre calling it something it blatantly isnt...

Sasuke outright calls it "enton"

A distinction is made between amaterasu and enton constantly...

They arent the same technique as amaterasu is shown to be much faster


Batzzaro29 said:


> Naruto needs no reaction, his clones discards the necessity of reaction, And that Naruto with FTG is going to turn that Sasuke into tomato sauce.


What...

"Naruto doesnt need to react"???

Yes...Yes he does...Regardless of how many clones he uses he still needs to make a reaction to do ANYTHING or else its called a blitz and he dies

Sasuke ON PANEL blitzed the naruto you are talking about with not even a mental reaction...If he wanted to kill naruto instead of taunt him he could have done it before a thought passed through the kids brain

FTG wont save its user from a technique they are too slow to react to

For instance...Genin Konohamaru with FTG vs MS obito...What happens?

Actually nvm..Tthis is off topic


Batzzaro29 said:


> Sasuke extinguishing Amaterasu? Cool, now show me he using that ability as offence.


...

I already showed you sasuke using enton kagutsuchi offensively...


YOU just claimed he cant use it a a distance or something...Hence the scan i posted from the killer Bee fight proving that wrong...

He can clearly control the flames a significant distance from his body


Batzzaro29 said:


> That was acid which anime got wrong


Im confused what you are addressing here

Mei hit sasuke with BOTH laval AND acid

Lava dint do shit to him

Acid however did...Tho it wouldnt have had he been fresh instead of exhausted and "every cell in his body screaming in agony" at that point

What did you mean by this exactly?


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## Serene Grace (Sep 6, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> You mean the same cloud ninjas that went to Konoha for such knowledge? Knowledge that was about Itachi's MS and thus wouldn't include knowledge on Enton, Susano'o Arrows and Susano'o's various forms since Sasuke unlocked those after Jiraiya died?


So if Konoha knew about Itachi's MS moreso Itachi's amaterasu, how wouldn't Jiraiya the man who actually encountered Itachi and the jutsu not know?

Or are you believer that Jiraiya knows about Amaterasu? Just asking


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 6, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> well shit you got me there. Jiraiya > Kaguya confirmed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And again...

Gold

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Sep 6, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Jiraiya learned about the abilities of 5 of the paths and still couldn't do shit about it either.


This is digusting reaching, it actually makes my stomach sick a bit. Did you forget the man had one arm, or did you just skim over the part

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 6, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> This is digusting reaching, it actually makes my stomach sick a bit. Did you forget the man had one arm, or did you just skim over the part


I know we have butted heads a lot in this thread but i gotta give u that

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Braiyan (Sep 6, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> So if Konoha knew about Itachi's MS moreso Itachi's amaterasu, how wouldn't Jiraiya the man who actually encountered Itachi and the jutsu not know?
> 
> Or are you believer that Jiraiya knows about Amaterasu? Just asking



The latter. The argument was never that he doesn't know about Amaterasu, but that he wouldn't know of Enton, Susano'o (mainly its forms and durability levels), and Susano'o Arrows.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Serene Grace (Sep 6, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> The latter. The argument was never that he doesn't know about Amaterasu, but that he wouldn't know of Enton, Susano'o (mainly its forms and durability levels), and Susano'o Arrows.


Ok I agree.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 6, 2017)

In regards to Jman knowing about amaterasu...He kinda shouldnt anyway...

Jman was dead when Konoha had attained that info iirc

None of the 8 man squad (who departed konoha AFTER jman left to fight pain) knew wtf the black flames were, Hinata didnt as when she seen it she said "for some reason a forest is burning with black flames" and nor did sakura Kakashi and Naruto were the only ones who knew...Kakashi whom straight up said he had never seen it before but merely heard of it...Hard to imagine Tsunade sending a hunting party put FOR ITACHI and not letting them know the information she is supposedly in possession of ON ITACHIS attacks...Seems silly to me so id say they didnt have the lowdown at that point


And when Jman encountered Itachi in part 1 he never even clapped eyes on the tech being used but just its after effects

Regardless tho even if he vaguely knows of just amaterasu...That doesnt help him with susanoo or enton at all...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 6, 2017)

Zero890 said:


> It can not move like A4 but if you can dodge Amaterasu, your SM allows it there is nothing that can deny that because Jiraiya has increased reactions and sense of danger, does not need to be faster than A4 to avoid it (Naruto was slower than A3 and he could avoid it).



A few things here:

- Jiraiya doesn't have comparable reflexes to any Raikage, so he's not casually dodging Amaterasu as it is being used. 
- Naruto didn't dodge Amaterasu.
- Jiraiya has the most inferior SM ever used, only Oro's use is comparable and they're better than CS users. Proper SM users have a huge edge.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 6, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> well shit you got me there. Jiraiya > Kaguya confirmed.


Well ıf you wanna create more speculations out of nowhere ..  keep goin ım done with you Sir.

by the way

And a lot of people say "he is fast" to each other (like Kakashi say for Kakuzu who aint a speedster) That not make'em speedsters. Raiton Armor users, FTG users, Kamui Jikuukan Users, Shunshin champions (like Minato, Shisui or Hanzo), V1-V2-V3 Jinc Transformation users, Hachimon Tonko users, perfect Sages, god like characters, rsm users, juubi jincs

These are speedsters not kakashi, not sasuke, not jiraiya or not danzo genius

Keep being sarcastic and react little things hyperbolic aint make you better debater or make you case solid. Its just a sign about how limited your argument and how disrespectfull you are.. Thats why ım done.. But thanks for the debate.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 6, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Im confused what you are addressing here
> 
> Mei hit sasuke with BOTH laval AND acid
> 
> ...


Eh, he's right about it not being actual lava. It's extreme;y caustic liquid. Weird, but if the same element can make rubber and quicklime, not far out to say it can make acidic paste.

That said Goemon also never did shit, so it's in the same boat as Mei's Yoton in that regard as far as his reasoning goes.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Serene Grace (Sep 6, 2017)

Imo Jiraiya that's already _researching and talling _the actions of the Akatsuki to witness flames potent enough to burn through a fire proof toad stomach used by an _Akatsuki member _would simply ignore the technique as opposed to furthur researching on said technique? Doubt it.


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## The Great One (Sep 6, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> What exactly makes it controversial???
> 
> Its a blatant feat of him doing something with kagutsuchi you said he couldnt do...Controlling the black flames at a distance
> 
> ...


That's only panel in whole manga you have as you evidence of Sasuke using Kagatsuchi on distance while anime shows it as  Gaara blocking it so seeing Sasuke has no feats of using Kagatsuchi at distance after it its is Gaara who blocked Amaterasu.

And Sasuke extinguished Amaterasu but it does not mean he can control it when during whole war Sasuke has no feat of controlling Amaterasu at distance.

Almost all of Enron feats consists of Sasuke controling at close proximity.


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## Bonly (Sep 6, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> *That's only panel in whole manga you have as you evidence of Sasuke using Kagatsuchi on distance* while anime shows it as  Gaara blocking it so seeing Sasuke has no feats of using Kagatsuchi at distance after it its is Gaara who blocked Amaterasu.


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## The Great One (Sep 6, 2017)

Bonly said:


>


These are examples of Sasuke manipulating Enton at close proximate THEN lunching those as projectiles not manipulating Amaterasu after its hits a disant target.

Sasuke can only shape manipulate Amaterasu at close proximity.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bonly (Sep 6, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> These are examples of Sasuke manipulating Enton at close proximate THEN lunching those as projectiles not manipulating Amaterasu after its hits a disant target.
> 
> Sasuke can only shape manipulate Amaterasu at close proximity.



Is there a statement that says it can only be manipulated at close range?


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## The Great One (Sep 6, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Is there a statement that says it can only be manipulated at close range?


Is there a feat which proves other wise?


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## Bonly (Sep 6, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Is there a feat which proves other wise?



So there's no statement backing up your claim? Ok. So let me ask you another question, how many times has Sasuke actually hit someone with Amaterasu for him to need to use Enton from a distance?


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## The Great One (Sep 6, 2017)

Bonly said:


> So there's no statement backing up your claim? Ok. So let me ask you another question, how many times has Sasuke actually hit someone with Amaterasu for him to need to use Enton from a distance?


Well Sasuke hit Ay with Amaterasu but did not used Enton on him.

You don't need statements when manga is showing it to you Sasuke never manipulated Amaterasu after hitting someone at distance.


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## Bonly (Sep 6, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Well Sasuke hit Ay with Amaterasu but did not used Enton on him.
> 
> You don't need statements when manga is showing it to you Sasuke never manipulated Amaterasu after hitting someone at distance.



Sasuke never hit A with Amaterasu. A dodged it. That's why A's speed is kind of a big thing with V2. A was hit with Enton.

Yes you do need statements. Nothing has suggested that Sasuke can't manipulate the flames at a distance. You can't use Sasuke not doing such when Sasuke has never been in said position. So since you failed with the A example I'll ask you one more time. How many times has Sasuke actually hit someone with Amaterasu for him to need to use Enton from a distance?


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## Zero890 (Sep 6, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> A few things here:
> 
> - Jiraiya doesn't have comparable reflexes to any Raikage, so he's not casually dodging Amaterasu as it is being used.
> - Naruto didn't dodge Amaterasu.
> - Jiraiya has the most inferior SM ever used, only Oro's use is comparable and they're better than CS users. Proper SM users have a huge edge.



It does not have reactions to the level of the Raikage but if near, the Manga only makes reference to that an imperfect sage has deformations, never it says that its abilities are smaller than those of a perfect Sage therefore Jiraiya receives PS of Naruto that has better reactions in SM that in KCM (could react to the Raikage). Those reactions added to the Chakra sensation would make it possible for Jiraiya to evade Amaterasu with ease, not only that he should react Jiraiya can be anticipated because of his sensory ability which would make it easier to dodge the attack.


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## The Great One (Sep 6, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Sasuke never hit A with Amaterasu. A dodged it. That's why A's speed is kind of a big thing with V2. A was hit with Enton.
> 
> Yes you do need statements. Nothing has suggested that Sasuke can't manipulate the flames at a distance. You can't use Sasuke not doing such when Sasuke has never been in said position. So since you failed with the A example I'll ask you one more time. How many times has Sasuke actually hit someone with Amaterasu for him to need to use Enton from a distance?


Remember when Ay hit Sasuke? He got flames on his hand, but insted of taking out Ay by manipulating Amaterasu on his hand he retorted to use it as a shield.

Even after that attack Sasuke never manipulated Amaherasu when Ay was standing with a burning hand.

Same situation as people here believe that Sasuke will manipulate Amaterasu on Jiraya to kill him.

Yeah so Sasuke hit someone Amaterasu had perfect chance to do what you said he can but he never did it.

Sasuke also hit a fodder samurai with Amaterasu but instead of using his enton warping to kill every one it is kankuru who took out his flames easily.

If Sasuke can control enton like you believe then he would've kept standing in single place and keep killing Danzo repeatedly like how yondu kills people with his flute.


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## Bonly (Sep 7, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Remember when Ay hit Sasuke? He got flames on his hand, but insted of taking out Ay by manipulating Amaterasu on his hand he retorted to use it as a shield.



A hit Enton. Enton is not the same as Ama as Ama spawns the flames on someone while Enton is just the manipulation of said flames. I asked for a time when Sasuke hit someone with Ama which he would then need to use Enton afterwords. Using A hitting Enton does not help your point as that's not Sasuke hitting A with Ama.



> Even after that attack Sasuke never manipulated Amaherasu when Ay was standing with a burning hand.



Sasuke stopped paying attention to A when Gaara had arrived.



> Same situation as people here believe that Sasuke will manipulate Amaterasu on Jiraya to kill him.



Who are all these people that think Sasuke will hit Jiraiya with Ama and then use Enton to kill him after Ama lands?



> Yeah so Sasuke hit someone Amaterasu had perfect chance to do what you said he can but he never did it.



Once again you are wrong. Sasuke did not hit someone with Ama. A hit himself with Enton so no Sasuke has not hit someone with Ama and then use Enton.



> Sasuke also hit a fodder samurai with Amaterasu but instead of using his enton warping to kill every one it is kankuru who took out his flames easily.



Sasuke was fighting A, not the samurai. That means that Sasuke's main target was A and his focus was on A. So why would he stop paying attention to A who moved so fast he dodged Ama, just to attack the samurai with Enton? That makes no sense.



> If Sasuke can control enton like you believe then he would've kept standing in single place and keep killing Danzo repeatedly like how yondu kills people with his flute.



You do realize that Danzo was using Izanagi right? That means even if Sasuke did hit Danzo with Ama, said method wouldn't work as Danzo would respawn elsewhere with a body not covered in flames.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 7, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> That's only panel in whole manga you have as you evidence of Sasuke using Kagatsuchi on distance


I only need one to disprove your point


You said sausek cant use enton kagutsuchi offensively
I responded with him using it offensively against gaara during FKS and outright telling us it was enton
You then tried to say he cant use it at a distance
I responded with sasuke stating he used his other mangekyou ability...Which is Kasgutsuchi btw...To save Bee from dying to amaterasu at a substantial distance from himself...



Batzzaro29 said:


> while anime shows it as Gaara blocking it


Anime should kinda be avoided ever being brought up

That said...Even the anime refers to sasukes attack as enton and not amaterasu...So dont know where you are going with this


Batzzaro29 said:


> so seeing Sasuke has no feats of using Kagatsuchi at distance after it its is Gaara who blocked Amaterasu.


That...Thats not how it works...

Sasuke states it is enton...Not amaterasu...

And ive already given you a feat of sasuke using kagutsuchi at a distance as did @Bonly for after the FKS...

There isnt much else to say


Batzzaro29 said:


> And Sasuke extinguished Amaterasu but it does not mean he can control it


Yes...Yes it does...

Sasuke stated he extinguished amaterasu using his other mangakyou ability apart from amaterasu...Which is kagutsuchi...Meaning he can use kagutsuchi at a distance...Because he did...On panel...Multiple times


Batzzaro29 said:


> when during whole war Sasuke has no feat of controlling Amaterasu at distance.


@Bonly already took care of that


Bonly said:


>





Batzzaro29 said:


> Almost all of Enron feats consists of Sasuke controling at close proximity.


"Almost all" doesnt mean he is restricted to close range when he has feats at mid-long rage


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## The Great One (Sep 7, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I only need one to disprove your point
> 
> 
> You said sausek cant use enton kagutsuchi offensively
> ...


As I've already stated to bonly in that panel Sasuke was manipulating Amaterasu at close proximity then lunching those as projectiles not morfing them in mid air far away from him.


Bonly said:


> A hit Enton. Enton is not the same as Ama as Ama spawns the flames on someone while Enton is just the manipulation of said flames. I asked for a time when Sasuke hit someone with Ama which he would then need to use Enton afterwords. Using A hitting Enton does not help your point as that's not Sasuke hitting A with Ama.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why should Danzo using Izanagi mean anything? If Sasuke controls Ama with enton as you think he can.

Sasuke should've just created a ribcage armour along with dozen of enton projectile which would've put a hole in Danzo every time he appears.

And this is far better strategy then spamming full susanoo with arrows IF Sasuke can control enton as you think he does.

Amaterasu is fire, Enton controls it when A hit Sasuke his hand got laced with Amaterasu so if Sasuke can control Ama away from himself then he could've just made Ame on Ay's hand big enough to completely consume him but he did not.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 7, 2017)

@Batzzaro29 Dude I'm glad that you try to defend Jiraiya but you doint this kinda so badly and thats makes us also looks bad too. 

Please stop exxagerating things. This is a clean tough fight. Dont talk like Jiraiya casually stomps MS Sauce..


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## Bonly (Sep 7, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Why should Danzo using Izanagi mean anything? If Sasuke controls Ama with enton as you think he can.



Because that means that Danzo can spawn anywhere else which means that Danzo could be quite a bit away from his old body that had the flames on him. Why would he waste his time using Enton instead of using another attack which would be faster?



> Sasuke should've just created a ribcage armour along with dozen of enton projectile which would've put a hole in Danzo every time he appears.



Why should've Sasuke did that? Did you read the fight? If you did then you'll see that there were multiple times where Sasuke could attack with something else faster then controlling his Enton from one spot and having it travel to Danzo's new spot. 



> And this is far better strategy then spamming full susanoo with arrows IF Sasuke can control enton as you think he does.



You thinking it's a better strategy doesn't make it a better strategy and your idea is horrible because Danzo can respawn anywhere and Sasuke isn't a sensor which means that Danzo could have got in a good spot to hit Sasuke and killed him with a Futon if he didn't spam Susanoo for defense and his Susanoo arrows are faster then Enton.



> Amaterasu is fire, Enton controls it when A hit Sasuke his hand got laced with Amaterasu so if Sasuke can control Ama away from himself then he could've just made Ame on Ay's hand big enough to completely consume him but he did not.



So you are opening being dishonest by ignoring the fact that Sasuke didn't hit A with Ama like I asked? You are also openly being dishonest by using that example to support your claim but ignoring the fact that Sasuke stopped paying attention to A once Gaara came which is why he didn't bother to try such a thing? So you're ignoring everything given to you as to why Sasuke didn't do it but you're still gonna say Sasuke could've did it anyway? Concession accepted then


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## Fullmoon Evergreen Prince (Sep 7, 2017)

MS Sasuke took on against 4 Kages, SM Jiraiya is not even a Kage. Do your math. I swear SM Jiraiya is overated as hell and MS Sasuke gets downplayed a lot.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Fullmoon Evergreen Prince (Sep 7, 2017)

Skilatry said:


> Location : Samurai Bridge
> Distance : 20m
> Knowledge : Manga
> Restrictions : None
> ...



Did you just seriously remove 2,483 reputation points for stating fact? SM Jiraiya lost to Pain. SM Naruto defeated Pain. Naruto around this point of the manga openly admitted inferiority to MS Sasuke who took on against 4 Kages during the Kage Summit while not fully recovered from his fight against Itachi, and yet he is still strong enough to fight Danzo. SM Jiraiya is not a Kage himself, but a Jonin. 4 Kages are stronger than a single Jonin.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Zero890 (Sep 7, 2017)

Fullmoon Evergreen Prince said:


> MS Sasuke took on against 4 Kages, SM Jiraiya is not even a Kage. Do your math. I swear SM Jiraiya is overated as hell and MS Sasuke gets downplayed a lot.



I do not know what kind of logic that is, Sasuke almost dies along with A4 and after Gaara intervened he only had a short encounter against the others and he almost died easily against Onoki (Sasuke if I fight against 4 Kages but only a rough one to take it to the limit). Jiraiya is stronger than any of those Kages despite not being one.


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## Fullmoon Evergreen Prince (Sep 7, 2017)

Zero890 said:


> I do not know what kind of logic that is, Sasuke almost dies along with A4 and after Gaara intervened he only had a short encounter against the others and he almost died easily against Onoki (Sasuke if I fight against 4 Kages but only a rough one to take it to the limit). Jiraiya is stronger than any of those Kages despite not being one.



MS Sasuke > SM Naruto > Pain > SM Jiraiya.

Pain killed Jiraiya. Naruto killed Pain. Naruto openly admitted inferior to Sasuke.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Skilatry (Sep 7, 2017)

Fullmoon Evergreen Prince said:


> Did you just seriously remove 2,483 reputation points for stating fact? SM Jiraiya lost to Pain. SM Naruto defeated Pain. Naruto around this point of the manga openly admitted inferiority to MS Sasuke who took on against 4 Kages during the Kage Summit while not fully recovered from his fight against Itachi, and yet he is still strong enough to fight Danzo. SM Jiraiya is not a Kage himself, but a Jonin. 4 Kages are stronger than a single Jonin.



I negged you for your retarded logic. SM Jiraiya isn't a Kage therefore he isn't Kage level according to you?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zero890 (Sep 7, 2017)

Fullmoon Evergreen Prince said:


> MS Sasuke > SM Naruto > Pain > SM Jiraiya.
> 
> Pain killed Jiraiya. Naruto killed Pain. Naruto openly admitted inferior to Sasuke.




I do not really know why to apply that logic, every fight is different, it depends on who they fight against. Pain admitted inferiority to Jiraiya and Naruto said that if he faced Sasuke both would end up dead. Which means: Jiraiya> Naruto = Sasuke


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## Fullmoon Evergreen Prince (Sep 7, 2017)

Zero890 said:


> I do not really know why to apply that logic, every fight is different, it depends on who they fight against. Pain admitted inferiority to Jiraiya and Naruto said that if he faced Sasuke both would end up dead. Which means: Jiraiya> Naruto = Sasuke



Except in Naruto's case he met a blind Sasuke who was battle beaten. He never met MS healed Sasuke. After their fight, when Neji told Naruto beating Sasuke should be no problem to Naruto since Naruto took down Pain. Naruto wasn't confident he could do it.

Pain admitted inferior to Jiraiya but that was prior to their battle, and only stated Jiraiya could have won if he knew their abilities. Naruto didn't know about Pain's abilities and yet he still won against Pain.

So yeah SM Naruto trashes SM Jiraiya. The same SM Naruto who would lose against MS Sasuke. Oh yeah remember the same Raikage who was giving both NTCM Naruto and Bee hard time with one arm? Gaara had to save Raikage's ass from MS Sasuke. And NTCM Naruto is stronger than SM Naruto.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Zero890 (Sep 7, 2017)

Fullmoon Evergreen Prince said:


> Except in Naruto's case he met a blind Sasuke who was battle beaten. He never met MS healed Sasuke. After their fight, when Neji told Naruto beating Sasuke should be no problem to Naruto since Naruto took down Pain. Naruto wasn't confident he could do it.
> 
> Pain admitted inferior to Jiraiya but that was prior to their battle, and only stated Jiraiya could have won if he knew their abilities. Naruto didn't know about Pain's abilities and yet he still won against Pain.
> 
> So yeah SM Naruto trashes SM Jiraiya. The same SM Naruto who would lose against MS Sasuke. Oh yeah remember the same Raikage who was giving both NTCM Naruto and Bee hard time with one arm? Gaara had to save Raikage's ass from MS Sasuke. And NTCM Naruto is stronger than SM Naruto.



Sasuke had already been cured and had his Chakra replaced, although of course he was almost blind. 
Naruto told Sasuke they would both die if they faced him again he was talking about a 100% Sasuke.

Pain indicated that if Jiriaya had known his secret he would have won, he did not refer to all of his abilities he meant that they were 6 and not 3. Naruto had more knowledge of Pain than he had Jiraiya.

Naruto was not seriously fighting the Raikage, nor was Bee. Naruto alone is far superior to the Yondaime Raikage.

Gaara prevented the two from getting killed, A4 would have been killed by Amaterasu and Sasuke for the attack.


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## Fullmoon Evergreen Prince (Sep 7, 2017)

Zero890 said:


> Sasuke had already been cured and had his Chakra replaced, although of course he was almost blind.
> Naruto told Sasuke they would both die if they faced him again he was talking about a 100% Sasuke.
> 
> Pain indicated that if Jiriaya had known his secret he would have won, he did not refer to all of his abilities he meant that they were 6 and not 3. Naruto had more knowledge of Pain than he had Jiraiya.
> ...



Sasuke wouldn't be killed by the Rikage since he still had enough strength to fight two more Kages and later on against Danzo. Unlike Naruto and Bee who keeps getting speed blized during their fight against Rikage, Sasuke made it look like a child play to him on the very first try. If Jiraiya knew Naruto would be weaker than him in Sage Mode, why would he let his student train in Sage Mode to fight against Pain? That's suicide, since Jiraiya didn't do any better than Naruto did. 

If Naruto and Sasuke were equal, then why couldn't Naruto bring back blind Sasuke to Konohagakure? Cause that's stupid. The fact Naruto never meet MS Sasuke or even saw his abilities, him and Sasuke dying at the same time would be an outlier. Even Neji pointed this out himself, and Naruto admitted he couldn't do it, and he was referring to blind Sasuke.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Serene Grace (Sep 7, 2017)

Fullmoon Evergreen Prince said:


> MS Sasuke took on against 4 Kages, SM Jiraiya is not even a Kage. Do your math. I swear SM Jiraiya is overated as hell and MS Sasuke gets downplayed a lot.


War-arc RSM Naruo wasn't even a jounin, so by your logic he loses to other jounins because he isn't a jounin

extremely asinine logic

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Zero890 (Sep 7, 2017)

Fullmoon Evergreen Prince said:


> Sasuke wouldn't be killed by the Rikage since he still had enough strength to fight two more Kages and later on against Danzo. Unlike Naruto and Bee who keeps getting speed blized during their fight against Rikage, Sasuke made it look like a child play to him on the very first try. If Jiraiya knew Naruto would be weaker than him in Sage Mode, why would he let his student train in Sage Mode to fight against Pain? That's suicide, since Jiraiya didn't do any better than Naruto did.
> 
> If Naruto and Sasuke were equal, then why couldn't Naruto bring back blind Sasuke to Konohagakure? Cause that's stupid. The fact Naruto never meet MS Sasuke or even saw his abilities, him and Sasuke dying at the same time would be an outlier. Even Neji pointed this out himself, and Naruto admitted he couldn't do it, and he was referring to blind Sasuke.



I will not say anything about that, I do not care who would die and who does not in that fight. Naruto was not attacking the Raikage and Bee also did not want to fight him, because if he really had intentions of fighting he would have entered V2 or something like that. He left everything in the hands of Naruto what he did not know was that Naruto barely had 3 days to learn SM, I repeat Naruto at that time was not stronger than Jiraiya. He could not bring Sasuke blind because there was Obito, Naruto did not know Sasuke MS but knew his exploits so he claimed that the two would die.


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## Fullmoon Evergreen Prince (Sep 7, 2017)

Zero890 said:


> I will not say anything about that, I do not care who would die and who does not in that fight. Naruto was not attacking the Raikage and Bee also did not want to fight him, because if he really had intentions of fighting he would have entered V2 or something like that. He left everything in the hands of Naruto what he did not know was that Naruto barely had 3 days to learn SM, I repeat Naruto at that time was not stronger than Jiraiya. He could not bring Sasuke blind because there was Obito, Naruto did not know Sasuke MS but knew his exploits so he claimed that the two would die.



My friend one of the Retrivial Team pointed out even if Obito was there, Naruto could have still brought back Sasuke. When Naruto stated when he and Sasuke would die if they fight at the same time, that was before he met blind Sasuke, fighting blind Sasuke was more than enough for Naruto to lose confidence. Fighting MS Sasuke would be an instant death for SM Naruto. Even if Naruto didn't want to fight Raikage, it still doesn't change the fact how he got speed blized several times until the final time whereas MS Sasuke did it on the very first time. If SM Jiraiya was stronger than SM Naruto, he wouldn't be dead now would he?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 7, 2017)

Zero890 said:


> It does not have reactions to the level of the Raikage but if near, the Manga only makes reference to that an imperfect sage has deformations, never it says that its abilities are smaller than those of a perfect Sage therefore Jiraiya receives PS of Naruto that has better reactions in SM that in KCM (could react to the Raikage). Those reactions added to the Chakra sensation would make it possible for Jiraiya to evade Amaterasu with ease, not only that he should react Jiraiya can be anticipated because of his sensory ability which would make it easier to dodge the attack.



Imperfect Sages can't use SM jutsu properly, that's why Fukasaku and Kabuto made a big deal about perfect Sage.

If we need to pretend Jiraiya has capabilities he doesn't have in order to challenge Sasuke, that says a lot. FYI if he could do what Naruto did, shared vision would not have been such a task to deal with- a perfect Sage, Naruto, made it a non factor easily.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Trojan (Sep 7, 2017)

Just curious, but from where did people come with "hurr duur Amaterasu is so much faster than Enton"?  
Is there any proof of that?

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 7, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Just curious, but from where did people come with "hurr duur Amaterasu is so much faster than Enton"?
> Is there any proof of that?



No, Minato is still a Sage even worse than Jiraiya. 

Hussain, I know you skipped non-Minato chapters but I gotta let you in on a secret: Amaterasu _is _Enton.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Trojan (Sep 7, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Amaterasu _is _Enton.


Thank you captain obvious. Hence, my question in the previous post.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 7, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Thank you captain obvious. Hence, my question in the previous post.



Your question is irrelevant because when Jiraiya is hit, he's hit. Yes, it also means if Sage Minato was hit, he'd be hit too.


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## Trojan (Sep 7, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> when Jiraiya is hit, he's hit.


you don't say? 

Now if you don't have a proof that Amaterasu is faster than Enton, stop wasting my time.


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## Zero890 (Sep 7, 2017)

The imperfect sages only have a small devaluation of the natural energy that is why they deform, that does not take away capacities and if you have those abilities because the Databook gives them, that has not shown them does not mean that it does not have them

So Hashirama does not have the capabilities of SM because I do not show them? Or Sasuke Rinnegan does not have Shinra Tensei why did not he show it?

 Jiraiya was nerf against Pain, if it had not been the first 3 Pain would not have been too much trouble for him, there are several inconsistencies in that battle as far as Jiraiya.

Not that there is to be invented, Jiraiya if it has those capacities.


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## Zero890 (Sep 7, 2017)

Fullmoon Evergreen Prince said:


> My friend one of the Retrivial Team pointed out even if Obito was there, Naruto could have still brought back Sasuke. When Naruto stated when he and Sasuke would die if they fight at the same time, that was before he met blind Sasuke, fighting blind Sasuke was more than enough for Naruto to lose confidence. Fighting MS Sasuke would be an instant death for SM Naruto. Even if Naruto didn't want to fight Raikage, it still doesn't change the fact how he got speed blized several times until the final time whereas MS Sasuke did it on the very first time. If SM Jiraiya was stronger than SM Naruto, he wouldn't be dead now would he?



Naruto was poisoned, Sasuke half-blinded that was a fair fight, now ¿do you think Naruto meant that the poisoned would die against Sasuke? I doubt it, Naruto meant that the one with all his power would die against Sasuke with all his power.

I repeat that Naruto had no intention of hurting the Raikage, had it been so the Raikage would have been trampled by Naruto while Sasuke was taken to the limit by him.

If Naruto had fought under Jiraiya's conditions ¿do you think he was alive now?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 8, 2017)

Hussain said:


> you don't say?
> 
> Now if you don't have a proof that Amaterasu is faster than Enton, stop wasting my time.



If, if its cast within 5m it pretty much has the user. 

More shocking point: you have time to waste?


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 8, 2017)

Fullmoon Evergreen Prince said:


> points for stating fact?


I also against using rep as a cruel weapon but ı have to say ; you message ? It isnt about stating anything.. Its a total mess and hatred and full with wrong / fall out comprasion between chars. I feel sorry for you it should'vent did to you but maaaaan. That post was ridicilously awful.


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