# Adult Naruto vs JJ Mads



## Troyse22 (Sep 8, 2017)

Mads has full Rinnegan with Shinju, Naruto is as he is currently.

No restrictions besides IT


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## Bonly (Sep 8, 2017)

Naruto needs Sasuke in order to beat Madara so thanks to his immortality Madara would win eventually

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Android (Sep 8, 2017)

In Boruto anime (canon) Hokage Naruto was said to be the strongest Shinobi in history. 
He beats Madara more times than not thanks to Ashura mode and the Bijū chakra which combined with his RS will extract the Bijū chakra out of Madara. And eventually orbital Rasengan takes him to the outer space.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Creative 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> No restrictions, Infinite Tsukuyomi is restricted


 tee hee.

OT: Naruto beats this guy senseless, takes his tailed beast and deletes him from history. 
Teen RSM Naruto could fight Kaguya who is impossibly more powerful than Madara by himself for a good long time and wasn't losing yet. This Naruto would beat that one down as well.


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## The_Conqueror (Sep 8, 2017)

Both Naruto and Sasuke should be stronger than madara by Now tho sealing him would be a problem.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 8, 2017)

I doubt naruto and sasuke have progressed to the point they could solo someone they needed to tag team in the war arc...

So id say naruto would lose

Especially considering he cant seal mads here due to having lost his own yang seal and not having sasukes yin seal either...

And also considering we never saw dual rinnegan/shinju mads cut loose it makes it harder to judge as well

Narutos clones are not terribly helpful as mads can discern between the original and clones

Narutos speed is also not terribly helpful given mads has RSM AND straight tomoe precog...And even pre shinju with a single rinnegan he was fast enough to physically react  to yagai...Which i genuinely believe is the fastest physical speed feat in the entire manga due to physically distorting space with its speed...AND he countered a FTG blitz in that state as well...With the shinju and additional rinnegan his reactions would likely have improved even beyond that...However even if they havent his reactions are more than sufficent to handle narutos speed anyway imo.

Dont see "biju extraction" working on mads either...Last time naruto tried that against a far weaker JJ...He needed EMS sasueks help, the K11s help, BM minatos help, gaara and killer bees help, the gokages and various leaders of SA divisions help...Oh and not to mention some 20,000+ SA nins help to pull the biju out of obito...And they still struggled...

Madara is far more powerful AND has a more complete version of the Juubi sealed within him due to having the full hachibi (minus a fraction) and half of kurama inside him...Not to mention the shinju as well and is more powerful than obito in general...Yet naruto is gonna succeed with biju extraction ON HIS OWN this time???

Yeah sorry i dont see it

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## ARGUS (Sep 9, 2017)

Madara beats him, mid diff 

-- PS would shit all over his RSM avatar., Madaras PS >> BM avatar pre buff.
And Madaras Buff >> narutos.
So the result Gets worse

-- ashura avatar is moot when juubidama still plows through his world NE RS, and the nuke this time one shots hun far worse than Momoshikis TBB

-- can't compete in CQC either. Not when Madaras limbos canonically defeated RSM clones and added with susanoo and ST, naruto isn't winning this time

-- one may argue that BDRS barrage may be worth it, but that is also not cutting it to either PS nor is it doing much when ST slaps them back. Any TBB on its own just get grabbed by jukaii kotan and sent right back so it's even worse

-- fight ends with a mass CT from up, followed by quad juubidama prep all whilst Madara protects the tree.
Once the juubidama are shot, naruto dies

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Creative 1 | Dislike 2


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## Trojan (Sep 9, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Naruto needs Sasuke in order to beat Madara so thanks to his immortality Madara would win eventually


Teen Naruto that is.

---
OT: Naruto f***s the living shit out of this clown.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 9, 2017)

These are some examples of why I say Naruto and Sasuke as adults are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overrated, people seem to think they've progressed so much that they could neg JJ Mads, lets get real.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## hbcaptain (Sep 9, 2017)

Madara is immortal so he can't be beaten outside of Rikudou CT, without immortality, it would be a tought battle.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## BlackHeartedImp (Sep 9, 2017)

Neither Naruto nor Sasuke are going to beat JJ Madara by themselves at any point in time. People like to use Naruto's decent performance against Kaguya and then powerscale but forget that the Kaguya fight was RIDDLED with PIS and Kaguya being a chakra whore at the start.

Examples: Could have killed Sasuke after she dimension dumped him but didn't.

-Sakura's punch affecting her at all (she got hit by 9 bijuu powered rasenshuriken and it tickled her at best). 

-Obito's "back from the dead" asspull.

And she STILL almost won several times. 

OT: Madara wins mid-high diff. A nation or two will be destroyed in the process. He literally had team 7 on the ropes until BZ plot powered him out of the spotlight.


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## Monty Burns (Sep 9, 2017)

Naruto is stronger. He has Rikūdo Sage Mode and the power of all the other 8 Bijūs on top 100% Kurama now. He is also faster and has comparable DC. Teen Naruto on his lonesome put the pressure on against Kaguya who is >> Madara. So he wins here.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## T-Bag (Sep 9, 2017)

Naruto needs sasuke to even have a chance. This was explicitly stated in the manga

Madara is Rikudou sennin tier, with _potential_ to become as powerful as kaguya thanks to his rinnei sharingan abilities. Madara puts the entire planet in a genjutsu (with exception of naruto) and sucks in all their chakra, now he's just like kaguya. Wtf does naruto do? Die.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Sep 9, 2017)

We have no idea how much stronger adult naruto is than teen. Howver, if we assume Naruto + Sasuke Teens are Madara teir. Then adult Naruto should be just as powerful since he has 100% Kyubi. 

Adult Naruto should be 2x teen Naruto in raw power. If teen Naruto is half as strong as Madara, then Adult Naruto should be just as strong- of
Course Madaras hax would be a problem. 

That's at a minimum assuming he didn't increase in skill. 

If we high ball and extrapolate his new strength based on his Momoshiki killing rasengan- then well, if a chakra  drained and pinned non sage mode Naruto can produce rasengans bigger than his teens ashura avatar Rasenshuriken with all the planets sage energy...... 

Then imagine what would a current adult naruto create if he gathered the worlds sage energy. 

The Naruto that needed Sasuke to fight Sasuke is half as powerful and has decades less experience than Adult Naruto.


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## theRonin (Sep 9, 2017)

Naruto can in a way kill Madara by extracting the biju outta of Madara. He has that option but for that he has to weaken Madara which I doubt he could do. I'mma go with madara here.
Give him the seals he solos.


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## uchihakil (Sep 13, 2017)

Madara beats the living crap out of naruto.

> madara in a much weaker form reacted to 8 gates guy
> madara faced the best taijutsu user in history and survived his taijutsu (naruto has nothing to offer in taijutsu better than what guy showed)
> madara has limbo that are as strong as he is (which in canon stomped narutos clones in a small time frame)
> Naruto needed sasuke's help + used 3 of his tsb's to immobilise a single limbo 
> madara has planetary control of moukhtun (which is an anti bijuu element) madara squashes him with whatever SS juudara can produce
> Madara's PS would be >>>>> sasuke's BPS thanks to being fueled directly by juubi and rikudou senjutsu (strong chakra means stronger PS)


Madara will murk naruto anyday of the week mid high diff at best

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 13, 2017)

You can disagree all you want @Hussain doesn't change the fact that its the truth


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> You can disagree all you want @Hussain doesn't change the fact that its the truth


you are pretty delusional, aren't you? 

An example:


> > madara in a much weaker form reacted to 8 gates guy


That's cool and all. But the much stronger (Kaguya) did not react to the "much weaker" Naruto. On other words

you took in consideration that Asspulldara "reacted" to Gui (even tho Gai smashed him left and right)
and then assumed that Asspulldara got stronger (even tho it's Just a Rinnegan, how that make him faster exactly?) will do better.

But you not only failed to admit that Naruto (teen) smashed Kaguya who is much stronger and faster than Asspulldara
but you did not acknowledge that Naruto (Adult) is also far stronger than himself as a teen. The gap between teen Naruto and Adult Naruto is definitely larger than between 1 Rinnegan Asspulldara and 2 Rinnegan Asspulldara.


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## Android (Sep 13, 2017)

As already by most people, Naruto beats the shit out of this mofo.


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## Android (Sep 13, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> > madara in a much weaker form reacted to 8 gates guy


And the DB stated that Naruto's reactions in his non-cloaked RSM.
So anything Madara could react to, Naruto can, even better.


uchihakil said:


> > madara faced the best taijutsu user in history and survived his taijutsu (naruto has nothing to offer in taijutsu better than what guy showed)


The guy who tossed Kaguya through a mountain and overpowered her chakra arms has a lot to offer in front of Madara who is less than a bug to Kaguya.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> The gap between teen Naruto and Adult Naruto is definitely larger than between 1 Rinnegan Asspulldara and 2 Rinnegan Asspulldara.



Maybe, but the gap between 1 Rinnegan Mads and 2 Rinnegan+Shinju mads is larger than the gap between Teen and Adult Naruto, would you agree with that?



Cosmos said:


> The guy who tossed Kaguya through a mountain and overpowered her chakra arms has a lot to offer in front of Madara who is less than a bug to Kaguya.



Lets not pretend JJ Mads wouldn't put up, at minimum an admirable battle vs Kaguya (I see him defeating her but I digress)


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Maybe, but the gap between 1 Rinnegan Mads and 2 Rinnegan+Shinju mads is larger than the gap between Teen and Adult Naruto, would you agree with that?


No. 

The only difference we have seen regarding Asspulldara is the fact that he was able to use 1 Limbo, and it became 4 to 5. That's literally it. 

People just assume that by getting the other Rinnegan he became a thousand time stronger or something based on nothing.


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## ARGUS (Sep 13, 2017)

Ofc we have retards spouting that naruto is superior when all feats and logic says otherwise

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1 | Dislike 3


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## Android (Sep 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Lets not pretend JJ Mads wouldn't put up, at minimum an admirable battle vs Kaguya (I see him defeating her but I digress)


Her chakra volume alone was enough to trash this fool  
Naruto and Sasuke could not even believe someone like her could exist, implying she was in a world of her own compared to Madara.


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> Ofc we have *retards* spouting that naruto is superior when all feats and logic says otherwise



@ Bold, very ironic. 

What feats? All things he pulled out got defeated. 
And they defeated them when they were 16 years old (Naruto) and 17 years old (Sasuke). 

Now, they are 32 years old, and showed much stronger feats, speed and about everything else.


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## ARGUS (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> @ Bold, very ironic.
> 
> What feats? All things he pulled out got defeated.


Defeated when naruto was with Sasuke 
Moot point 


> And they defeated them when they were 16 years old (Naruto) and 17 years old (Sasuke).


Irrelevant because *naruto had Sasuke with him*
Either prove that adult naruto is stronger than teen naruto and Sasuke together or just stop with this rubbish 

Ofc you can't prove that adult naruto is stronger than both of them together 
When vote power ups dictate that the teen selves together would molest an old broke down naruto who had just been sitting on a desk 



> Now, they are 32 years old, and showed much stronger feats, speed and about everything else.


Them improving is irrelevant when you have still yet to prove *thay naruto has surpassed Madara, not just his teen self*

Thoogh ofc you'll just come with rubbish showing that bz defeated madara or that naruto and Sasuke together could defeat Madara 
Same crap as always

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2017)

*announcer voice* and the Winner is Argus by a landslide.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> Defeated when naruto was with Sasuke
> Moot point
> 
> Irrelevant because *naruto had Sasuke with him*
> ...



your post is rubbish. 

you are acting if they were using their full power or something. Naruto did not even use his Kurama avatar or the world NE...etc etc
and in the movie, even his base Rasengan was able to send Momoshiki (who is stronger than Asspulldara) out of the space.

You are the one who need to prove your nonsense of Asspulldara being stronger in the first place. 
We have seen his strongest jutsu being defeated (CT shower), his jutsu being dodged (Storm release), or being dealt with (lightning  attack) and the same goes for his Limbo.

What else does he have to offer exactly? Oh, and Naruto and Sasuke just got their power up 1 moment earlier, and yet Asspulldara had to run as a rat. 


Kishi knew he wouldn't be a challenge, so he replaced him with a far stronger opponent.


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

Stay mad, ARGUS.

Reactions: Optimistic 2 | Dislike 1


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## ARGUS (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> your post is rubbish.
> 
> you are acting if they were using their full power or something. Naruto did not even use his Kurama avatar or the world NE...etc etc
> and in the movie, even his base Rasengan was able to send Momoshiki (who is stronger than Asspulldara) out of the space.


A Momoshiki who lost his absorption abilities 
And when naruto had help from Sasuke 

Wonder how that measly rasengan would work when Madara has preta 



> You are the one who need to prove your nonsense of Asspulldara being stronger in the first place.


That Madara required both naruto and Sasuke to take him down 

Is adult naruto stronger than the collective might of naruto and Sasuke togejrf when all he had been doing was sit on a desk 

Yeah, hell the fuck no 



> We have seen his strongest jutsu being defeated (CT shower), his jutsu being dodged (Storm release), or being dealt with (lightning  attack) and the same goes for his Limbo.


 -- CT is not his strongest jutsu. Definitely not the ones he used that narto needed Sasukes help against 

 -- storm release is trash and not worthy. Nor is it relevant when naruto did everything with Sasukes help 

 -- limbos defeated RSM clones so terrible point 


> What else does he have to offer exactly? Oh, and Naruto and Sasuke just got their power up 1 moment earlier, and yet Asspulldara had to run as a rat.


A Madara who didn't have his other eye against both of them together so it's irrelevant yet again. Jus like all ur trash arguments 

What Madara has to offer? lol let's see 

 -- juubidama plows through narutos strongest nuke. And kills him far worse than how base momoshikis TBB one shotted him 
Add mass CT as a distraction then naruto dies Definitely since This scenario is is just like canon except TBB is replaced from MT, which was actually prepped despite Sasukes presence 

 -- loses the avatar fight 
 -- loses the taijutsu fight and melee attack fight 
 -- tossing ninjutsu is moot when ST Redirects BDRS and mokuton redirects TBB. Not that those nukes are even worthy 

 -- world NE RS loses to quad juubidama so that is moot too 



> Kishi knew he wouldn't be a challenge, so he replaced him with a far stronger opponent.


Yet kishi made it obvious that Madara with just one Rinnegan needed both of them to take him down 
Prime madara is well above that Madara and the duo together is well above adult naruto alone regardless of the usual wank they get as adults

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## ARGUS (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Stay mad, ARGUS.


Yeah this statement from a fodder who doesn't know shit 

Unless you're gonna say he's stronger than Kaguya or hagoromo when just his non Jin selfs yang component is what made naruto whatever he is now


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## uchihakil (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> your post is rubbish.
> 
> you are acting if they were using their full power or something. Naruto did not even use his Kurama avatar or the world NE...etc etc
> and in the movie, even his base Rasengan was able to send Momoshiki (who is stronger than Asspulldara) out of the space.
> ...




Momo stronger than juudara?  the momo that got blown to bits by a COR???  madara fucking tanked a rikudou senjutsu buffed Youton RS (even as a narutofaanboy @Hussain you know FRS >>> COR) and madara tanked that shit with a slight cut on him in his weakest jj version)

> Momos Golem got oneshotted by a PS + kurama slash with no duraility to speak for it or DC to even be used against madara, madara chews momo and spits him out, you might as well just say momo is stronger than kaguya while your're at it.

> Madara faced off against the strongest taijutsu user in history to ever walk the face of the narutoverse and tanked all his punches and kicks (naruto has no punches and kicks that will deal more damage than guys) and he did that also in his weakest state

> Madara will neg diff naruto with IT, we're just giving naruto a fighting chance here, and you narutofanboys be saying stuff like madara gets pummeled by naruto  

> madara will chew naruto so bad, naruto will scream sasuke's name every step of the way

> Madara motherfucking Uchiha is a solid tier above naruto/sasuke individually no contest


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## Troyse22 (Sep 13, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> Yeah this statement from a fodder who doesn't know shit
> 
> Unless you're gonna say he's stronger than Kaguya or hagoromo when just his non Jin selfs yang component is what made naruto whatever he is now



No, the state doesn't apply to Hagoromo or Kaguya *rolls eyes*

It only applies to Madara because the one spewing such nonsense runs around calling Mads Asspulldara, as if people are supposed to take anything he says about Mads seriously.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Stay mad, ARGUS.



"was strongest in all of history" might mean the strongest hokage, even if the ignorant boy meant everyone he doesn't know jack shit and is from a filler episode


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## ARGUS (Sep 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> No, the state doesn't apply to Hagoromo or Kaguya *rolls eyes*
> 
> It only applies to Madara because the one spewing such nonsense runs around calling Mads Asspulldara, as if people are supposed to take anything he says about Mads seriously.


Let's also not forget that no one bar naruto and team 7 even got to witness prime Madara so a terrible point 

Let alone This clown of a kid


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> A Momoshiki who lost his absorption abilities
> And when naruto had help from Sasuke
> 
> Wonder how that measly rasengan would work when Madara has preta


I dunno know, the same way YFRS worked? 


ARGUS said:


> Is adult naruto stronger than the collective might of naruto and Sasuke togejrf when all he had been doing was sit on a desk
> 
> Yeah, hell the fuck no


Yes. you must be blind if you don't see the difference in power lol "sit on a desk"
will sitting on a deck make him upgrade his base to the level where his Rasengan can destroy the Tree and send Momoshiki to space? 





ARGUS said:


> -- CT is not his strongest jutsu. Definitely not the ones he used that narto needed Sasukes help against
> 
> -- storm release is trash and not worthy. Nor is it relevant when naruto did everything with Sasukes help
> 
> -- limbos defeated RSM clones so terrible point



- Sasuke's help? 
Naruto could destroy anything coming his way on his own. What they did was just to protect the others. Not themselves. Stop being Naive. 

- Yes, and Asspulldara did what he did with Zetsu's help and whatnot, what's your point?
- you know Naruto can create 1000 clones at once, right?



ARGUS said:


> A Madara who didn't have his other eye against both of them together so it's irrelevant yet again. Jus like all ur trash arguments
> 
> What Madara has to offer? lol let's see
> 
> ...



- Good, so bring those feats that he got from his other eye that made all the difference in your opinion. I am waiting. 
And it's not like he did jackshit to any of them. You are pathetically bringing "blah blah blah, against both of them" what the fuck did he do to any of them?  He was fodderstomped and had to run for his dear life. lol


- Can you bring This Asspulldara's Juubidama? I don't seem to remember him using any?
- Naruto destroyed his CT easily, so cut the crap already. And you have the indignity to call others "retards" 

- The others "loses" is pure rubbish. Heck, by your beloved feats, Naruto's body is stronger than the Susanoo. 
Hence, Sasuke's PS getting destroyed by Kaguya's chakra arms, but not Naruto's body. 



> world NE RS loses to quad juubidama so that is moot too[



Please show us the Juubidama that Asspulldara used. So, I can see how powerful it is


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> "was strongest in all of history" might mean the strongest hokage, even if the ignorant boy meant everyone he doesn't know jack shit and is from a filler episode


1- the anime is canon
2- They know. Watch the latest episode. They know about the Raikage getting his hand chopped off and saying to Darui "you are my right hand", the know about the 7swordsmen, and they know about the 100000 Zetsu....etc etc. 

Fact of the matter, Naruto being the strongest is canon, whether you like it or not.


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## uchihakil (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> I dunno know, the same way YFRS worked?
> 
> Yes. you must be blind if you don't see the difference in power lol "sit on a desk"
> will sitting on a deck make him upgrade his base to the level where his Rasengan can destroy the Tree and send Momoshiki to space?
> ...




Nobody is going to show you any juubi dama, if you dont know madara is capable of using it go back and rewatch naruto, madara flogs naruto with shin jukai koutan


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## uchihakil (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> 1- the anime is canon
> 2- They know. Watch the latest episode. They know about the Raikage getting his hand chopped off and saying to Darui "you are my right hand", the know about the 7swordsmen, and they know about the 100000 Zetsu....etc etc.
> 
> Fact of the matter, Naruto being the strongest is canon, whether you like it or not.




Madara still flogs his punk ass with shin jukai koutan


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Momo stronger than juudara?  the momo that got blown to bits by a COR???  madara fucking tanked a rikudou senjutsu buffed Youton RS (even as a narutofaanboy @Hussain you know FRS >>> COR) and madara tanked that shit with a slight cut on him in his weakest jj version)
> 
> > Momos Golem got oneshotted by a PS + kurama slash with no duraility to speak for it or DC to even be used against madara, madara chews momo and spits him out, you might as well just say momo is stronger than kaguya while your're at it.
> 
> ...



-Yes, he is. You know the same guy whom Kaguya considered to be a threat and made an army to face him? Where Asspulldara was a bug to her?


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Nobody is going to show you any juubi dama, if you dont know madara is capable of using it go back and rewatch naruto, madara flogs naruto with shin jukai koutan


What good will that do if he did not use it? 
Or you mean if I rewatch the manga/anime it will magically appear? 


uchihakil said:


> Madara still flogs his punk ass with shin jukai koutan



How so? 
Naruto could fly and destroy the fuck out of this fodder jutsu. Just like how Rassengan destroyed the Tree.


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## uchihakil (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> -Yes, he is. You know the same guy whom Kaguya considered to be a threat and made an army to face him? Where Asspulldara was a bug to her?



Nobody gives a fuck bout that crap ass of an excuse to put momo above them, zetsu army?? pathetic, Hashi will scrape through a zetsu army neg diff. Madara still flogs your boy


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## uchihakil (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> What good will that do if he did not use it?
> Or you mean if I rewatch the manga/anime it will magically appear?
> 
> 
> ...



Madara murders naruto with wood alone, the scale of juudaras moukhtun is enough to mop the floor with your boy (planetary scale)


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Nobody gives a fuck bout that crap ass of an excuse to put momo above them, zetsu army?? pathetic, Hashi will scrape through a zetsu army neg diff. Madara still flogs your boy


So, no body gives a fuck about canon, but everybody gives a fuck about your bias opinion? 



> Hashi will scrape through a zetsu army neg diff


Same Hashi who got killed in the first world war? 

Zetsu can also go through wood, so doubt it will be as easy for him as you may think.


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Madara murders naruto with wood alone, the scale of juudaras moukhtun is enough to mop the floor with your boy (planetary scale)


That's not what canon said. 

So far Naruto destroyed 2 Shinjo trees 

first time: Floored the Tree along side Asspulldara's Ass.
Second time: floored the Tree with Momoshiki's ass (although through Bolt)

So much for fodder wood.


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)




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## uchihakil (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> That's not what canon said.
> 
> So, far Naruto destroyed 2 Shinjo trees
> 
> ...



Not all statements are taken seriously when they go against the manga, you will be the first to say itachi is not invincible (which is true) but it was stated it is. So dont gimme that double standard crap here, i'm a big itachi fan but i never used that to debate or itachi because obviously it can't be backed up by feats. 

If you now believe all statements then itachi shits on your fave, eitherway your fave gets his head kicked in.


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Not all statements are taken seriously when they go against the manga, you will be the first to say itachi is not invincible (which is true) but it was stated it is. So dont gimme that double standard crap here, i'm a big itachi fan but i never used that to debate or itachi because obviously it can't be backed up by feats.
> 
> If you now believe all statements then itachi shits on your fave, eitherway your fave gets his head kicked in.



I wasn't even talking about statements tho. 

What I was referring to is the fact that Narudo will fodderstomps any wooden jutsu Asspulldara might throw at him. 

and you sound desperate btw.


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## uchihakil (Sep 13, 2017)

Kaguya has planetary feats and tanked way more than momo, tanked super tailed beast RS and momo got obliterated by a faaar lesser less potent attack, the scale of her techniques are planetary and her chakra is far more than momos, you have to be really deluded to think momo is on the same tier as kags


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## uchihakil (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> I wasn't even talking about statements tho.
> 
> What I was referring to is the fact that Narudo will fodderstomps any wooden jutsu Asspulldara might throw at him.
> 
> and you sound desperate btw.



You were, nobody is blind here, pulling a statement by iwabe trying to prove something


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> You were, nobody is blind here, pulling a statement by iwabe trying to prove something


Pfff, I am not sure whether to laugh or cry.  

Babydoll, try to focus. The post that you were replying to was about the Wood Release. Hence why I said Naruto destroyed 2 Sinjo trees.  

People might not be bland, but they can lack reading comprehension.


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## uchihakil (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Stay mad, ARGUS.



Yea @Hussain you didn't use this filler statement to try and prove anything, we the readers seem to all lack reading comprehension, pfft pfft


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 13, 2017)

Well first of all. Naruto's Boruto's feats < Naruto's The last feats < Naruto's RSM War-Arc feats.. So ı dont get it why movie versions overratin this much. He is probably a bit stronger than his War-Arc mode but not that much.
So Sasuke and Naruto could beat Juudara with mid to high diff. Its not big deal for duo but 1 vs 1 its kinda tough since Madara is an immortal and very versatile.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 13, 2017)

Naruto can technically use the same absorption tactics that Madara can use now. He's got 100% Kurama now, so that's something to consider.

Though, if Madara uses all his powers then I believe Madara could still win this. Teen Naruto and Sasuke could barely take on Madara when he started using his full power (hence Zetsu jumped in). They'll stand a better chance, but Madara still has too many abilities to counter Naruto. 

It won't be as easy for Madara since, like I said, Naruto can tank and absorb jutsu like Madara can do. But Madara's just got more abilities to use.



uchihakil said:


> You can disagree all you want @Hussain doesn't change the fact that its the truth



Don't you realise, Hussain doesn't care about facts. He wants to debate against the character whose name and power trolled Minato multiple times.


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## uchihakil (Sep 13, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto can technically use the same absorption tactics that Madara can use now. He's got 100% Kurama now, so that's something to consider.
> 
> Though, if Madara uses all his powers then I believe Madara could still win this. Teen Naruto and Sasuke could barely take on Madara when he started using his full power (hence Zetsu jumped in). They'll stand a better chance, but Madara still has too many abilities to counter Naruto.
> 
> ...



Yea he's pretty much in matchups to hate against who he hates and overrate the ones he likes. 

OT: what absorption powers do you mean?


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## ARGUS (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> I dunno know, the same way YFRS worked?


Irrelevant when that Madara is canonically far weaker than prime Madara



> Yes. you must be blind if you don't see the difference in power lol "sit on a desk"
> will sitting on a deck make him upgrade his base to the level where his Rasengan can destroy the Tree and send Momoshiki to space?


Sending a mere human sized object to space is no big deal and turning someone who has no durability to nothing is also no big deal

Even bees TBB point blank would have done that to Momoshiki if it wasn't for absorption. Completely irrelevant.



> - Sasuke's help?
> Naruto could destroy anything coming his way on his own. What they did was just to protect the others. Not themselves. Stop being Naive.


It needed the combined efforts of naruto and Sasuke to take out fused Momoshiki
Stop ignoring factual events, and stop with the protect others rubbish when their second battle did not involve protecting the village

And stating that RSM avatar could not tank momoshikis TBB is a relevant thing since Madara can dish out stronger ones than vote3, whcih was far above momoshikis



> *
> - Yes, and Asspulldara did what he did with Zetsu's help and whatnot, what's your point?*


* 



			- you know Naruto can create 1000 clones at once, right?
		
Click to expand...

One PS slash and they're all gone
Terrible point and utterly useless 



			- Good, so bring those feats that he got from his other eye that made all the difference in your opinion. I am waiting. 

Click to expand...

The fact that Madara was implied to be unstoppable with his other eye whilst naruto wasn't is evidence enough 

There is also the fact that Madara went from getting clowned to being strong enohhh to go toe to toe against them both 

Naruto in his adult form cannot do such thing. Thus hes below hun 
Thoogh I know accepting that Madara > your boy naruto or Minato is something you have never handled well which is why We've even seen you claim fkn KCM naruto is above vote Madara or Hashirama 

Would be my last reply to this obviously 




And it's not like he did jackshit to any of them. You are pathetically bringing "blah blah blah, against both of them" what the fuck did he do to any of them?  He was fodderstomped and had to run for his dear life. lol


- Can you bring This Asspulldara's Juubidama? I don't seem to remember him using any?[/






			-- striked is either addressed, is irrelevant or is trash. Actually it's all of the above 

--  Madara is the juubi Jin, he can use the juubidama and it'll be stronger than juubitos quad juubidama which is stronger than flash juubidama which is far above what adult naruto nearly died against 




			- Naruto destroyed his CT easily, so cut the crap already. And you have the indignity to call others "retards" 

Click to expand...

 
Clearly you haven't read my post If you're spouting this 
The CT is a distraction to prep TBB which in turn would lead to naruto being transformed into a smear on the ground 




			- The others "loses" is pure rubbish. Heck, by your beloved feats, Naruto's body is stronger than the Susanoo. 
Hence, Sasuke's PS getting destroyed by Kaguya's chakra arms, but not Naruto's body. 

Click to expand...

Irrelevant as always 



			Please show us the Juubidama that Asspulldara used. So, I can see how powerful it is

Click to expand...

Juubidama from v3 juubi at its max is well above what canonically adult naruto could handle 

Madara > juubi on its own 

This it'll be strong enough to kill him 

That simple
		
Click to expand...



Click to expand...

*


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 13, 2017)

Just gonna jump in on this one point and let you all get back to whatever this is supposed to be...


Hussain said:


> That's not what canon said.
> 
> So far Naruto destroyed 2 Shinjo trees
> 
> ...



JJ Mads jukai kotan is PLANETARY in scale...

That dwarfs the size of both shinju naruto has cut through added together...

Matter of fact its bigger than the RFRS/IA clash...By a shit ton by the way...

Sorry hussain the shinju cutting feat aint shit by comparison

Now if youll excuse me...You can all go back to your discussion now


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Yea @Hussain you didn't use this filler statement to try and prove anything, we the readers seem to all lack reading comprehension, pfft pfft


Seriously, why are you so dense? 

1- I wrote the post about that statement
2- I wrote a post about Naruto Vs wooden attacks

You replied to the second one. I told you "that's not what canon said" referring to Naruto destroying wooden things (the tree). You misunderstood and thought when I said "that's not what canon said" referring to the statements. I cleared up the misunderstanding, and here you are too dense to get even that!

The thing known as a "brain" do you know it? If so, USE IT. 



ARGUS said:


> Irrelevant when that Madara is canonically far weaker than prime Madara


Dafuq? 

How does that change the fact that Naruto's attacked despite "lol Preta path"?
Even blind Asspulldara absorbed Sasuke's Amaterasu. You talked about preta path, and you were proven wrong. So, move on.
Asspulldara getting stronger does not change the fact that he had the same ability before getting the other Rinnegan



ARGUS said:


> Sending a mere human sized object to space is no big deal and turning someone who has no durability to nothing is also no big deal
> 
> Even bees TBB point blank would have done that to Momoshiki if it wasn't for absorption. Completely irrelevant.



Funny, you ride Hashirama's dick 24/7 because of the little damage the Buddha did, but Naruto destroying the Tree and sending Momoshiki to space is no big deal? 

- B's TBB would have sent Momoshiki to space? Please prove this. I am interested from where you pulled this out. 



ARGUS said:


> It needed the combined efforts of naruto and Sasuke to take out fused Momoshiki
> Stop ignoring factual events, and stop with the protect others rubbish when their second battle did not involve protecting the village
> 
> And stating that RSM avatar could not tank momoshikis TBB is a relevant thing since Madara can dish out stronger ones than vote3, whcih was far above momoshikis



1- Momoshiki is stronger than Asspulldara, so your point is irrelevant
2- That Naruto after he got his chakra absorbed for hours
3- Naruto did not even use his global NE or Asura Avatar. 


- lol, idiocy at its finest. 
Yes, the second battle did not include protecting others, but how does that change the damage he got from the first battle? You know for Naruto it was back to back, right? 

> Momoshiki attacking civilians 
> Naruto taking the hits for them
> Momoshiki takes Naruto
> Momoshiki absorbing Naruto's chakra for HOURS
> help comes
> Naruto back to fight right away

When did he get to rest?



> since Madara can dish out stronger ones than vote3, whcih was far above momoshikis


 Complete and utter rubbish. 

See Asspulldara's place compared to Kaguya
and see Momoshiki's place compared to Kaguya

The first was nothing but a big, the other was a threat to her that she prepared an entire army to battle him (before he even fused)
Anyone with a brain can see the different in portryal between the 2. 



ARGUS said:


> One PS slash and they're all gone
> Terrible point and utterly useless





ARGUS dick riding Asspulldara/Hashirama's dick 24/7 never fail to amaze me. 

Had it been that easy, Kaguya (who once again far stronger than Asspulldara) would have done so, but guess what? She couldn't. 



ARGUS said:


> The fact that Madara was implied to be unstoppable with his other eye whilst naruto wasn't is evidence enough
> 
> There is also the fact that Madara went from getting clowned to being strong enohhh to go toe to toe against them both
> 
> ...



- lol, typical "hype the villain". The fact that Naruto was fighting Kaguya and blitzing her shows otherwise. Not to mention
that was teen Naruto, and we are talking about Adult Naruto here. 

- How did he go toe to toe with both of them when he got fodderstomped right of the bat before he did anything? 
I wonder what manga do you read... 

- I claimed KCM Naruto is stronger than Asspulldara/Hashirama? Where? 



> *-  Madara is the juubi Jin, he can use the juubidama and it'll be stronger than juubitos quad juubidama which is stronger than flash juubidama which is far above what adult naruto nearly died against *


So, you don't have feats? And you want him to be OOC to use stuff that he does not use? Got it.




> *
> Clearly you haven't read my post If you're spouting this
> The CT is a distraction to prep TBB which in turn would lead to naruto being transformed into a smear on the ground *


lol, fan fiction.
But even then. Asspulldara used like 37 CT or so.
Naruto can use 1000 clones at once. So, that's more than enough to stop all of them and attacking Asspulldara at the same time I am afraid. 



> *Juubidama from v3 juubi at its max is well above what canonically adult naruto could handle
> 
> Madara > juubi on its own
> 
> ...



Madara > Juubi?
That's why it's hard to take you seriously. 

you must also think Kushina (overall) > Kurama because she can stop him?

Yes, Asspulldara can seal the Juubi, but that does not make him stronger than him. 


but if you mean Asspulldara (as the Juubi's host) > Juubi
That's true. Although it makes you quite the hypocrite seeing how you shamelessly go around saying rubbish like "host > Bijuu is retconned "


Anyway, last post. You don't handle the fact that time has passed your beloved Hashi/Asspulldara well. 
Going as far as to claim Hashirama could defeat Toneri.


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Just gonna jump in on this one point and let you all get back to whatever this is supposed to be...
> 
> 
> JJ Mads jukai kotan is PLANETARY in scale...
> ...



How is that relevant tho?

For example: If asspulldara jutsu popped out in Kiri and Naruto is in Konoha, how will the branches in Kiri be of any relevance to Naruto?
They will not harm him in any way, shape, or form. 
All Naruto needs to deal with is the little part that is in front of him. Nothing more, nothing less...


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> How is that relevant tho?
> 
> For example: If asspulldara jutsu popped out in Kiri and Naruto is in Konoha, how will the branches in Kiri be of any relevance to Naruto?
> They will not harm him in any way, shape, or form.


He has control over them because thats what mokuton is...He could just focus them all locally and whats narutos retort?
Also...


WorldsStrongest said:


> Just gonna jump in on this one point and let you all get back to whatever this is supposed to be...





WorldsStrongest said:


> Now if youll excuse me...You can all go back to your discussion now


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> He has control over them because thats what mokuton is...He could just focus them all locally and whats narutos retort?
> Also...


It wouldn't matter in this case. Because if he were to focus them in NAruto's way, they will all get vaporized with Rassengan/FRS or anything of that sort. Especially with Naruto being able to control his FRS.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> It wouldn't matter in this case. Because if he were to focus them in NAruto's way, they will all get vaporized with Rassengan/FRS or anything of that sort.


No...Not even close...Because naruto hasnt got shit close to planetary scale...

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No...Not even close...Because naruto hasnt got shit close to planetary scale...


Again, he does not have to. 
All he needs is to deal with what's coming towards him. 
That's the main issue with what people believe when it comes to big ass jutsu. 

Example:



Do you see those Kurama's cloaks? Are they as big as Asspulldara & Obito's fire jutsu?
No? Then based on your logic, the SA should have been burned alive. 

But that's not how it works. The chakra is protecting them from what it's coming their way. All the rest of the fire in between is irrelevant. As simple as that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Monty Burns (Sep 13, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Just gonna jump in on this one point and let you all get back to whatever this is supposed to be...
> 
> JJ Mads jukai kotan is PLANETARY in scale...
> 
> ...


So you're saying wooden constructs are faster and will catch Naruto?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hitachi Uchiha (Sep 13, 2017)

I agree with @Cosmos @Hussain and @Monty Burns on this one. If teen Naruto who's new to his Rikūdo powers was pressuring Kaguya (who's >>> JJ Madara) then his adult self would not only pressure a weaker version, but would beat him. Additionally, he's gained Kurama's other half which is a huge boost on top of his Rikūdo powers.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Trojan (Sep 13, 2017)

Hitachi Uchiha said:


> I agree with @Cosmos @Hussain and @Monty Burns on this one. If teen Naruto who's new to his Rikūdo powers was pressuring Kaguya (who's >>> JJ Madara) then his adult self would not only pressure a weaker version, but would beat him. Additionally, he's gained Kurama's other half which is a huge boost on top of his Rikūdo powers.


Naruto solos

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 14, 2017)

Man @Hussain is killing it.

I don't get how the main arguments for Madara are "well he probably could have <insert thing he either would not or could not do on cannon> and Naruto would stand there looking." 

You can't actually say Madara has some super powerful thing he never used and act like you know the scale of it.

As for Naruto did we all forget his blocked, uncloaked, punch did almost as much damage to the tree with Madara's body as Gai did with night Gai.

Or that his base Rikudo Mode attacks can badly wound JJ Madara, blast Momoshiki into space and kill him and destroy trees that touch the skies in one blow. 

Does Madara hit harder than Kaguya? 

Isn't ash bones and dimension hopping more dangerous than anything Madara showed?

If Naruto can react to teleports and dimension grabs, and dodge light fang (The Fastest attack Madara showed) as a kid and he is stronger now how the heck is Madara supposed to get him? And with what?
 From the manga please.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 14, 2017)

@Hino shi Ishi he aint killing shit

> First he claims momo is stronger than madz with STATEMENTS only, couldn't back his words with momos feats, the weakest form of Jj madara had better feats going on for him than momo, yet he keeps giving us statements as a means to prove momo is stronger. Do you also agree Momo is stronger? If so provide your reasons, otherwise this debate is pointless due to @Hussain using double standards. If he's taking statements above feats, obito also said madara can NOT be defeated with the second eye and he's the strongest, statements are only taken seriously if they are backed by feats. MOMO has no fucking feat over 1 eyed Jj madara, not interms of dura, versatility, chakra reserve, megazord or anything

> his megazord got oneshotted by a PS kurama sword swing (no dura feat or dc feat from it)
> he was crying he used up chakra jumping between dimensions only once, and its not even amenotominaka ( sasuke who has way less chakra than madz was opening dimensions) 
> His dura doesn't come close to madz due to the fact that they all have feats facing off against naruto, one had a stronger attack thrown at him and he tanked it in his weakest form, and the other got blown away by a weaker attack in his strongest form

Seriously, this is some 2016 debate

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Trojan (Sep 14, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> the weakest form of Jj madara had better feats going on for him than momo


the one that got his ass kicked by teen Naruto and Sasuke and did not put any sort of fight
is stronger than the guy who took their adult form to their limits?

Sure, buddy. 



> > his megazord got oneshotted by a PS kurama sword swing (no dura feat or dc feat from it)



better than being 1-shotted by Zetsu's arm.


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## uchihakil (Sep 14, 2017)

OT: Madara not using preta has to do with the fact that he used limbo thinking naruto can still not perceive it, not because he couldn't, made a wrong judgment call and got slammed by a YRS, but madara was in his weakest version and tanked that with no defence. 

> As i keep saying since page 1, Madara in his weakest non immortal form, tanked the strongest taijutsu attacks, and only yagai was even close enough to kill him, naruto has nothing to offer madara taijutsuwise that madara wont tank, so taijutsu is not a way naruto is taking this, cuz he is not as good as guy to begin with

> Madara has the versatility advantage (he has both indra and ashuura powers, naruto only has ashuura based powers), madara has Rinnegan + RSM , naruto only has RSM

> Limbo, limbo is madara's clones with equal stats, that means narutos taijutsu aint doing jack, cuz a weaker madara survived guys, a stronger madara's limbo will survive guy, and they have destroyed naruto's clones in a short time frame 

> Madara can neg diff any of narutos attacks with a ST (assuming we scale it to his CT)

> Madara is still more experienced cuz he has a century worth and naruto has like 3 decades worth (doesn't matter as much though)

> Madara is immortal, even naruto knew he needed sasuke to even think of beating madara

> Since you guys take statements seriously, obito said madara can NOT be defeated with both eyes (not even talking bout rinnesharingan)


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## uchihakil (Sep 14, 2017)

Hussain said:


> the one that got his ass kicked by teen Naruto and Sasuke and did not put any sort of fight
> is stronger than the guy who took their adult form to their limits?
> 
> Sure, buddy.
> ...




Yea you can't even come at me directly, using zetsu to downplay madara, why didn't naruto do the samething zetsu did? I've pointed out multiple times why juudara is stronger, but ofcourse i wasn't doing it for you exactly, i know you wont agree to it, but will play the zetsu and statement games, asspulldara shits on your fave, the asspulldara you hate so much you even call him by a nickname showing how much you hate him, *shrugs*, i gave out those points so that anyone reading online will see the difference.


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## uchihakil (Sep 14, 2017)

As i said @Hussain , the only thing you can do is disagree with no tangible feats to back up your claims but with useless DBZ powerscaling/statement power scaling shit (naruto is no dbz, especially with how naruto's power fluctuates, from having tsb and the yang seal to loosing it and gaining full kurama etc). Eitherway i wasted enough time on you, i'm out


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## Trojan (Sep 14, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> As i said @Hussain , the only thing you can do is disagree with no tangible feats to back up your claims but with useless DBZ powerscaling/statement power scaling shit (naruto is no dbz, especially with how naruto's power fluctuates, from having tsb and the yang seal to loosing it and gaining full kurama etc). Eitherway i wasted enough time on you, i'm out


your opinion is not a fact sweetheart. 
But yeah, the only thing I can do now is to disagree. Otherwise, this is an endless loop.


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## uchihakil (Sep 14, 2017)

Hussain said:


> your opinion is not a fact sweetheart.
> But yeah, the only thing I can do now is to disagree. Otherwise, this is an endless loop.



Yes it is not, all thats left was for you to debunk, which you couldn't in this debate, but resorted to using statements and statement powerscaling as well as calling madara names as usual, and lowballing with zetsu, instead of really engaging in the debate

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Trojan (Sep 14, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Yes it is not, all thats left was for you to debunk, which you couldn't in this debate, but resorted to using statements and statement powerscaling as well as calling madara names as usual, and lowballing with zetsu, instead of really engaging in the debate


ok w/e


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## Mar55 (Sep 14, 2017)

Naruto. I would even back his teen version, he has the physicals to more than pressure Madara and everything else to keep his offense and versatility at bay.


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 14, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> @Hino shi Ishi he aint killing shit
> 
> > First he claims momo is stronger than madz with STATEMENTS only, couldn't back his words with momos feats, the weakest form of Jj madara had better feats going on for him than momo, yet he keeps giving us statements as a means to prove momo is stronger. Do you also agree Momo is stronger? If so provide your reasons, otherwise this debate is pointless due to @Hussain using double standards. If he's taking statements above feats, obito also said madara can NOT be defeated with the second eye and he's the strongest, statements are only taken seriously if they are backed by feats. MOMO has no fucking feat over 1 eyed Jj madara, not interms of dura, versatility, chakra reserve, megazord or anything
> 
> ...



In the manga drained base Naruto was able to dodge and attack transformed Momoshiki right? 
So at the very least we can agree that they are not too far away in power, right?

I take feats, portrayal, and context pretty evenly so I believe the story usually when they tell me someone is stronger than or at least a problem for someone else for the most part.

So if base, exhausted, Naruto is able to take on Otsutsuki members, who are supposed to be = or >Kaguya, why would it be hard to believe Naruto at full power can take on someone who is stated to be << Kaguya especially given that Naruto was able to solo the dimension hopping, one hit = death, immortal goddess for quite some time 

Also My earlier questions of 


Hi no Ishi said:


> Does Madara hit harder than Kaguya?
> 
> Isn't ash bones and dimension hopping more dangerous than anything Madara showed?
> 
> ...



Kinda prove my point.


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## uchihakil (Sep 14, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Naruto. I would even back his teen version, he has the physicals to more than pressure Madara and everything else to keep his offense and versatility at bay.



Okay, so how does teen naruto beat juudara?


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## Arles Celes (Sep 14, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Her chakra volume alone was enough to trash this fool
> Naruto and Sasuke could not even believe someone like her could exist, implying she was in a world of her own compared to Madara.



Tbh it seemed more than mere chakra volume and rather BZ messing up Madara's chakra control preventing him from moving and somehow resurrecting Kaguya via his body. BZ even without the chakra pumping and resurrection thingy could paralyze Naruto and Sasuke long enough twice.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 14, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> So you're saying wooden constructs are faster and will catch Naruto?


You saying naruto can outrun a planet sized mod of wood ???



Where does he go????


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## King Shark (Sep 14, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> In the manga drained base Naruto was able to dodge and attack transformed Momoshiki right?
> So at the very least we can agree that they are not too far away in power, right?


I'm just nitpicking here, but Naruto was completely on the defensive. He didn't even attempt to attack momo in base. Also what's with the "drained" naruto thing? He didn't say anything about being tired or something like that, despite resisting the otsutsuki's bijuu extraction.


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## Sasaukage (Sep 14, 2017)




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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 14, 2017)

The Orange Hokage said:


> I'm just nitpicking here, but Naruto was completely on the defensive. He didn't even attempt to attack momo in base. Also what's with the "drained" naruto thing? He didn't say anything about being tired or something like that, despite resisting the otsutsuki's bijuu extraction.


Perhaps I missed the omake where they spent playing patty cake for several hours my friend, but what we saw was Momoshiki draining Naruto and being pissed because it was taking so long.

Also in reference to the nitpick if he wasn't on Momoshiki's general level there would have been no dodging just Naruto getting floored.


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## King Shark (Sep 14, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Perhaps I missed the omake where they spent playing patty cake for several hours my friend, but what we saw was Momoshiki draining Naruto and being pissed because it was taking so long.
> 
> Also in reference to the nitpick if he wasn't on Momoshiki's general level there would have been no dodging just Naruto getting floored.


My point is Naruto is a stamina monster, that's why he wasn't huffing and puffing when fused momo engaged him.

Naruto could somewhat react to momo's speed, but he isn't close to that level of speed if that's what you're implying. Momo put naruto on the defensive, but then pressured him to the point where Naruto had to resort to rsm or whatever to stop Momo's attack.


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## Monty Burns (Sep 14, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> You saying naruto can outrun a planet sized mod of wood ???
> 
> 
> 
> Where does he go????


Naruto can fly.


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## Arles Celes (Sep 14, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Again, he does not have to.
> All he needs is to deal with what's coming towards him.
> That's the main issue with what people believe when it comes to big ass jutsu.
> 
> ...



Interesting observation.

Though could it be due to the cloak being particularly suited against fire based jutsus? Like how it handled Amaterasu?

But for some reason Naruto did not use it to tank/block attacks like chidori.

Though it offered some decent protection against Juubi's Tenpenchi meaning it can defend rather good against attacks that can affect a big area but are not as focused as a bijuudama for example.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 14, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> OT: what absorption powers do you mean?



Boruto Chap. 16.


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## T-Bag (Sep 14, 2017)

When I see posts claiming naruto > Madara i just facepalm. I can't laugh because it's sad- it really is.

"madara is unstoppable" how many times was this said (although paraphrased in different ways) by many different knowledgeable characters in the manga? Naruto is NOT beating the jinchuriki of the 10 tails for fucks sake.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 14, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Naruto solos



This sort of argument made people laugh at you when Madara (and his name) owned Minato repeatedly.


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## Kai (Sep 14, 2017)

Naruto and Sasuke are undoubtly above their teenage incarnations, but before getting utterly carried away with nonsense like soloing Madara - remember Naruto and Sasuke got punked by Shin.

Neither is soloing JJ Madara.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 2


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 14, 2017)

The Orange Hokage said:


> My point is Naruto is a stamina monster, that's why he wasn't huffing and puffing when fused momo engaged him.
> 
> Naruto could somewhat react to momo's speed, but he isn't close to that level of speed if that's what you're implying. Momo put naruto on the defensive, but then pressured him to the point where Naruto had to resort to rsm or whatever to stop Momo's attack.


One either does or does not have the ability to react and dodge someone.

We have seen what happened when someone is outclassed by speed,
Like KCM Naruto VS Kisame, or Alive Madara vs Naruto and that wasn't it.

Naruto is a monster and has hours worth of chakra to lose, but an Otsutsuki power drained him for hours so clearly he is not full power, that same Otsutsuki ate that power from Naruto and then got another power up from eating his dad, and that enhanced Otsutsuki STILL couldn't really tag base Naruto.


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## uchihakil (Sep 14, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Boruto Chap. 16.



The ninja tech hand only absorbed low level jutsu, nothing proves it can absorb high level jutsu's for it to be a factor, + most of madara's techniques are not even absorbable (limbo, rinnegan techs, moukhtun, goudodama etc)


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## LastUchiha (Sep 14, 2017)

I'm going with JJ Madara.

A Juubi-powered Susanoo with Rinnegan and Rinnesharingan jutsus plus Limbo Susanoo clones? 

Come on man. That's unstoppable, even for Naruto.


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## King Shark (Sep 14, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> One either does or does not have the ability to react and dodge someone.


Sure,  but that doesn't mean they can't be pressured in cqc. Momoshiki is obviously the superior one in that scuffle. 


> We have seen what happened when someone is outclassed by speed,
> Like KCM Naruto VS Kisame, or Alive Madara vs Naruto and that wasn't it.


I'm pretty sure there's many examples in this series where someone reacted to another faster or much faster than they are. Minato vs Ay is probably a good example, i don't recall Minato having shunshin feats that surpasses or is close to Ay's V2 speed feats.


> Naruto is a monster and has hours worth of chakra to lose, but an Otsutsuki power drained him for hours so clearly he is not full power, that same Otsutsuki ate that power from Naruto and then got another power up from eating his dad, and that enhanced Otsutsuki STILL couldn't really tag base Naruto.


The otsutsuki are after Kurama's chakra so they were draining Kurama's power, but Naruto was resisting the process so he did lose some chakra i imagine. Still, i need proof that being so called "drained" affected Naruto's performance. Naruto did put up decent resistance for a bit, but the guy had to resort to RSM real quick. If naruto was truly on Momoshiki's "general level" then he wouldn't have needed RSM at all to stop an attack from Momoshiki. For some reason, i can't post scans anymore but reread chapter 8, pages 16 & 17. Momoshiki is also fast enough to get behind Naruto on page 16


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 15, 2017)

The Orange Hokage said:


> Sure, but that doesn't mean they can't be pressured in cqc. Momoshiki is obviously the superior one in that scuffle


No one said he wasn't, and clearly not the point lol.


The Orange Hokage said:


> I'm pretty sure there's many examples in this series where someone reacted to another faster or much faster than they are. Minato vs Ay is probably a good example, i don't recall Minato having shunshin feats that surpasses or is close to Ay's V2 speed feats.


The two fastest men alive aren't close in speed? Hmm odd.

People act like A said Minato was faster solely because of FTG when he said nothing like that.
The battle they showed clearly had Minato lure A right where he wanted him, then make several moves while A was still not sure what was happening.

We have Minato outspeeding Kurama's attack while saving Kushina.
His Shunshin across the village to food cart Destroyer Kurama to stop a tailed beast ball. 
Marking the four corners of the Jubii while in a weaker form, before anyone can notice.
Etc.



The Orange Hokage said:


> The otsutsuki are after Kurama's chakra so they were draining Kurama's power, but Naruto was resisting the process so he did lose some chakra i imagine. Still, i need proof that being so called "drained" affected Naruto's performance. Naruto did put up decent resistance for a bit, but the guy had to resort to RSM real quick. If naruto was truly on Momoshiki's "general level" then he wouldn't have needed RSM at all to stop an attack from Momoshiki. For some reason, i can't post scans anymore but reread chapter 8, pages 16 & 17. Momoshiki is also fast enough to get behind Naruto on page 16


I say "hey that's a forest", you reply "nope one of the leaves is brown"

I called Naruto "drained" because he was "drained" for hours. 

Also I never said or implied that Naruto could have beat him in base, only that he was able to keep up well with a powered up Otsutsuki who, again, was hyped up on power he drained from Naruto for a bit which  he would not have been able to do if they were not on the same tier.


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## Trojan (Sep 15, 2017)

Kai said:


> Naruto and Sasuke are undoubtly above their teenage incarnations, but before getting utterly carried away with nonsense like soloing Madara - remember Naruto and Sasuke got punked by Shin.
> 
> Neither is soloing JJ Madara.



And Asspulldara got punked by Zetsu. What's you point? 
At least they didn't die, nor was they at their peak as Asspulldara


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## King Shark (Sep 15, 2017)

This is gonna be my last post, i don't wanna gonna offtopic any further and you take too long to reply. 


Hi no Ishi said:


> The two fastest men alive aren't close in speed? Hmm odd.People act like A said Minato was faster solely because of FTG when he said nothing like that.
> The battle they showed up clearly had Minato lure A right where he wanted him, then make several moves while A was still not sure what was happening.


Is FTG not the reason why Minato was called the fastest? Yeah, Minato used FTG those times, not his own speed. He did slash at Ay after using FTG, so i'll give him that.


> We have Minato outspeeding Kurama's attack while saving Kushina.
> His Shunshin across the village to food cart Destroyer Kurama to stop a tailed beast ball.
> Marking the four corners of the Jubii while in a weaker form, before anyone can notice.
> Etc.


I honestly don't remember all of Ay's speed feats, but i recall him side stepping amaterasu and MS Sasuke lost track of him.  Idk if those are his best feats tho.



> I say "hey that's a forest", you reply "nope one of the leaves is brown"
> 
> I called Naruto "drained" because he was "drained" for hours.
> 
> Also I never said it implied that Naruto could have beat him in base, only that he was able to keep up well with a powered up Otsutsuki who, again, was hyped up on power he drained from Naruto for a bit which  he would not have been able to do if they were not on the same tier.


He didn't complain or say anything about being tired, Naruto didn't even looked like he was "drained" when Momoshiki confronted him. So, i see no reason to believe that downgraded his performance. And i know you didn't imply that, i'm just telling you Momoshiki has the superior speed that's all. Hyped on power? He didn't take any of the chakra pills, that had Naruto or rather Kurama's chakra until after that idiot scientist revived him with jutsu to absorb.

Let's just agree to disagree, okay?


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## Kai (Sep 15, 2017)

Hussain said:


> And Asspulldara got punked by Zetsu. What's you point?
> At least they didn't die, nor was they at their peak as Asspulldara


Zetsu is actually a part of Kaguya, so it would in fact be Kaguya that technically punked Madara. But again, I was talking about Shin


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## Trojan (Sep 15, 2017)

Kai said:


> Zetsu is actually a part of Kaguya, so it would in fact be Kaguya that technically punked Madara. But again, I was talking about Shin



Does not change the fact that Zetsu is a fodder who was defeated by Chojiro, now does it?

- Shin is stronger than Zetsu. 


And what do you say about Asspulldara getting one-shotted by Lee? Kappa


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## Doc Mindstorm (Sep 15, 2017)

Naruto easily beat shit out of Madara since he was able to do so when he was teen. But I don't see how he can win here - Madara JJ and in this state practically immortal(just like Kaguya) - Biju pull won't work he needs even more people than Obito's case and R : CT cannot be done alone even if Naruto as SPS user can create seals. So after hours(days) of beating by Naruto Madara outlives him as JJ and wins.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

The same reason he let ohnoki hit him with jinton or when he let sasuke tag him with his katana


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## jonnty6 (Sep 15, 2017)

I always assumed that 100% Kurama Six Paths + 10+ years worth of experience + The assumption of him still having the other Bijuu's elements>50% Kurama Six paths + Just getting used to the new form + the other bijuu, did something happen?

I was gonna say take immortality/regen off for madara to make it "fair" so he doesn't have to worry about sealing and stuff but wasn't momoshiki "immortal"? err so he claimed.


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

jonnty6 said:


> I always assumed that 100% Kurama Six Paths + 10+ years worth of experience + The assumption of him still having the other Bijuu's elements>50% Kurama Six paths + Just getting used to the new form + the other bijuu, did something happen?
> 
> I was gonna say take immortality/regen off for madara to make it "fair" so he doesn't have to worry about sealing and stuff but wasn't momoshiki "immortal"? err so he claimed.




Immortality varies, he was immortal in the sense that he can't age, but not like kaguya/madara/Edo tensei were they regenerate from any attack (except omnyoutun that negates edo regeneration). Even if his immortality is restricted madara still owns

> Madara's juubi + rikudou senjutsu enhanced PS >>>> sasuke's BPS (adult naruto's shroud was getting wrecked by momo's elemental attacks even while sasuke helped) Madara destroys him

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## jonnty6 (Sep 15, 2017)

Shouldn't momoshiki's elemental attacks actually breaking both Adult sasuke Susano and Adult naruto's 100% Kurama six paths be a testament to how how powerful momoshiki is?? And if Base Naruto can at least momentarily keep up with MomoKin while Six Paths mode completely overwhelmed him(Going by Manga feats) also be a testament of how powerful naruto is now?


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## jonnty6 (Sep 15, 2017)

And wait isn't Madara's Susanoo with Juubi juice technically the same thing as Sasuke's BPS?? lol


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## Troyse22 (Sep 15, 2017)

jonnty6 said:


> And wait isn't Madara's Susanoo with Juubi juice technically the same thing as Sasuke's BPS?? lol



No, because Sasuke was harnessing the power of the 9 seperate Bijuu, while Madara was harnessing the power of the Juubi, and we know the combination of the 9 Bijuu>>>>>>>>>9 seperate Bijuu

Madaras JPS would be on another level, beyond even what we've seen from Kaguya.

My belief that Mads>Kaguya is not unfounded.

Edit: Also don't forget Madaras JPS would be RSM enhanced.

I'd argue that JJ Mads Susanoo cannot be beaten by anything or anyone we've seen yet.

Imagine 4 Limbo clones using that shit too.

My opinion is Madara is in his own tier beyond anyone else, but I made this thread to see what other people think because it is still a truly controversial topic.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Doc Mindstorm (Sep 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> No, because Sasuke was harnessing the power of the 9 seperate Bijuu, while Madara was harnessing the power of the Juubi, and we know the combination of the 9 Bijuu>>>>>>>>>9 seperate Bijuu
> 
> Madaras JPS would be on another level, beyond even what we've seen from Kaguya.
> 
> My belief that Mads>Kaguya is not unfounded.


Nope, Kurama stated that Sasuke made chakra whole again so it was Jubi chakra not 9 Bijuu.


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

jonnty6 said:


> And wait isn't Madara's Susanoo with Juubi juice technically the same thing as Sasuke's BPS?? lol



Fuck no!!! Madara is directly getting power from the whole juubi, sasuke only absorbed the bijuus chakra (and sasuke only absorbed so much, the chakra he absorbed can't be qunatified but he implied he wanted to reabsorb the bijuus chakra which his eye failed him due to having low chakra atm, so yes waht he absorbs wont even come close to what madara has in store)

Plus we all know Rikudou senjutsu chakra >>> rikudou chakra, madara has RSM to boost his PS, while sasuje has just rikudou chakra.

We also know that PS is dependant upon who has the greater chakra quantity/quality, madara has both in the bag, you tell me who will have the mightier/stronger susano

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 15, 2017)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> Nope, Kurama stated that Sasuke made chakra whole again so it was Jubi chakra not 9 Bijuu.



You're not understanding, Sasuke absorbed the Bijuus Chakra into his Susanoo, resulting in BPS, 9 individual Bijuus Chakra, not directly from the combination of said Bijuu, the Juubi is canonically FAR superior to the 9 Bijuu separately, so logically Madaras JPS is as far above Sasuke BPS as The Juubi is above the other 9 Bijuu.

It's not really complicated and is supported by literally everything.


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> Nope, Kurama stated that Sasuke made chakra whole again so it was Jubi chakra not 9 Bijuu.



What sasuke did was bringing the 9 bijuus chakra into 1, but it doesn't mean the chakra he gathered was on par with the juubi in terms of quantity, which was obvious  (gave the reason in the post above) and to add to that the juubi has senjutsu chakra, the 9 bijuus still dont posses the amount of energy the juubi has


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## Doc Mindstorm (Sep 15, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> What sasuke did was bringing the 9 bijuus chakra into 1, but it doesn't mean the chakra he gathered was on par with the juubi in terms of quantity, which was obvious  (gave the reason in the post above) and to add to that the juubi has senjutsu chakra, the 9 bijuus still dont posses the amount of energy the juubi has


What flawed logic is that? Combing 9 Biju chakra gives you Jubi chakra period - it has both Senjutsu and Six Paths and by extension SPS properties because Jubi has them. And yes 9 biju is almost all Jubi chakra ergo it's energy so they posses it all. Sasuke took as much as he needed - and it's not like he drained them either.



Troyse22 said:


> You're not understanding, Sasuke absorbed the Bijuus Chakra into his Susanoo, resulting in BPS, 9 individual Bijuus Chakra, not directly from the combination of said Bijuu, the Juubi is canonically FAR superior to the 9 Bijuu separately, so logically Madaras JPS is as far above Sasuke BPS as The Juubi is above the other 9 Bijuu.
> 
> It's not really complicated and is supported by literally everything.


Kurama said chakra was mixed together he directly compared it act of creation of Biji - wich is made by spiting Jubi chakra -  and noted it was opposite, you have no logic here.


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

BTW that will be just dual rinnegan Juudara's PS, imagine if he was using the 3rd eye and absorbing the whole worlds chakra and fueling it, Oh Lord have mercy, naruto is pasted shit.


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## Doc Mindstorm (Sep 15, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> BTW that will be just dual rinnegan Juudara's PS, imagine if he was using the 3rd eye and absorbing the whole worlds chakra and fueling it, Oh Lord have mercy, naruto is pasted shit.


That's big IF here. If Rinnegan power-ups Susanoo as far as we know it does not Sasuke Sasanoo is not better than Madara EMS Susanoo same can be said about RinneSharingan - power ups from these eyes are pure fanon.


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> What flawed logic is that? Combing 9 Biju chakra gives you Jubi chakra period - it has both Senjutsu and Six Paths and by extension SPS properties because Jubi has them. And yes 9 biju is almost all Jubi chakra ergo it's energy so they posses it all. Sasuke took as much as he needed - and it's not like he drained them either.
> 
> 
> Kurama said chakra was mixed together he directly compared it act of creation of Biji - wich is made by spiting Jubi chakra -  and noted it was opposite, you have no logic here.



Okay, i might be wrong on that, assuming what you said is true, it still doesn't make sasuke's chakra on par with madara's, cuz juubito had the juubi and his chakra was still way inferior to madara's, madara has the full juubi, while sasuke absorbed x amount, it might be half, cuz he thought bout reabsorbing the bijuus chakra, still inferior to madara's who has 100%


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> That's big IF here. If Rinnegan power-ups Susanoo as far as we know it does not Sasuke Sasanoo is not better than Madara EMS Susanoo same can be said about RinneSharingan - power ups from these eyes are pure fanon.



Dude i never said the rinnegan will boost madara's susano to begin with, i said the chakra he absorbs from the planet will boost his PS which is no speculation

And its not even wrong to claim doujutsu boosts susano, cuz its common knowledge that the higher ones doujutsu is the more chakra he/she posses, so yea its not even a wrong claim


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## Doc Mindstorm (Sep 15, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Okay, i might be wrong on that, assuming what you said is true, it still doesn't make sasuke's chakra on par with madara's, cuz juubito had the juubi and his chakra was still way inferior to madara's, madara has the full juubi, while sasuke absorbed x amount, it might be half, cuz he thought bout reabsorbing the bijuus chakra, still inferior to madara's who has 100%


Of course not Sasuke is nowhere near JJ Madara Chakra wise but his BSP was very similar to what JJ with Susanoo would have made it's like workaround for JJ Susanoo.


uchihakil said:


> Dude i never said the rinnegan will boost madara's susano to begin with, i said the chakra he absorbs from the planet will boost his PS which is no speculation


You mean like bigger chakra = bigger susanoo? I don't think Susanoo scales any bigger than PS size considering it's more yin=will=hatred=state of mind dependent and PS is complete form of tengu anyway - I doubt it can turn anymore tengu. Then again I also don't think Sasanoo can hold this much more chakra than BPS either because other wise Sasuke would have done so in order to overwhelm Naruto.



uchihakil said:


> And its not even wrong to claim doujutsu boosts susano, cuz its common knowledge that the higher ones doujutsu is the more chakra he/she posses, so yea its not even a wrong claim


There no factual proof for this though.


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> Of course not Sasuke is nowhere near JJ Madara Chakra wise but his BSP was very similar to what JJ with Susanoo would have made it's like workaround for JJ Susanoo.
> 
> You mean like bigger chakra = bigger susanoo? I don't think Susanoo scales any bigger than PS size considering it's more yin=will=hatred=state of mind dependent and PS is complete form of tengu anyway - I doubt it can turn anymore tengu. Then again I also don't think Sasanoo can hold this much more chakra than BPS either because other wise Sasuke would have done so in order to overwhelm Naruto.



It doesn't have to be bigger, but if its made up of a more potent chakra then yes it will be stronger, e.g we all know rinnegan sasuke's PS >>> Edo/EMS madara's PS, the size was not what determines how strong the PS is but the potency of the chakra used to make the PS


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## Doc Mindstorm (Sep 15, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> It doesn't have to be bigger, but if its made up of a more potent chakra then yes it will be stronger, e.g we all know rinnegan sasuke's PS >>> Edo/EMS madara's PS, the size was not what determines how strong the PS is but the potency of the chakra used to make the PS


And we don't know that Rinnegan Sasuke's PS is all what we know is same as EMS Madara's PS there no actual feats to differentiate them. More with this much chakra as JJ Madara has I don't why he needs to wrap it by something like PS he perfectly able to manifest Jubi Biju mode no? Why do he even needs to use something weaker like PS?


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 15, 2017)

The Orange Hokage said:


> This is gonna be my last post, i don't wanna gonna offtopic any further and you take too long to reply.
> 
> Is FTG not the reason why Minato was called the fastest? Yeah, Minato used FTG those times, not his own speed. He did slash at Ay after using FTG, so i'll give him that.
> 
> ...


Yeah I work and go to school full time, quick replies are not a thing with me lol.

I'm fine agreeing to disagree my friend, thanks for the discussion.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> And we don't know that Rinnegan Sasuke's PS is all what we know is same as EMS Madara's PS there no actual feats to differentiate them. More with this much chakra as JJ Madara has I don't why he needs to wrap it by something like PS he perfectly able to manifest Jubi Biju mode no? Why do he even needs to use something weaker like PS?



What're you talking bout? That we don't know if rinnegan sasuke's PS is stronger than EMS madara's PS?? If thats what you mean you clearly missed what the purpose of having a higher doujutsu does to a character and what chakra quantity/quality really is


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## Doc Mindstorm (Sep 15, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> What're you talking bout? That we don't know if rinnegan sasuke's PS is stronger than EMS madara's PS?? If thats what you mean you clearly missed what the purpose of having a higher doujutsu does to a character and what chakra quantity/quality really is


And show me how is Sasuke PS is stronger than Madara PS? Where did I miss it, show me manga page? Otherwise it's seems like you made up something on your own.


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 15, 2017)

Man the Madara fans "what if he uses this thing he didn't or couldn't in the manga" game is still going strong.

Ok I'll play too!

Naruto makes a thousand Asura avatar clones who hit Madara with the whole solar systems energy GG.

Uzumaki Universe combo throws Super Tailed Beast Rasenshruiken from all angles, disturbing the tailed beast chakra so that Madara looses his form GG.
Unless Madara has a jutsu known as the most marvelous jutsu in all of creation to counter.
He does not.

 Naruto uses his ability to take chakra from people that he learned from Kurama and just rips out his chakra leaving him an empty husk.
But don't worry, not dead because he is immortal.

This is fun, I get it now guys!

Reactions: Like 2


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> And show me how is Sasuke PS is stronger than Madara PS? Where did I miss it, show me manga page? Otherwise it's seems like you made up something on your own.



A simple question, why do you think EMS sasuke's susano became bigger and stronger than MS sasuke's?


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Man the Madara fans "what if he uses this thing he didn't or couldn't in the manga" game is still going strong.
> 
> Ok I'll play too!
> 
> ...



There is a reason why kishi said madara was too strong, go and cry because kishi made him OP, nobodies business man, if you have a reason of why he can't use PS, be my guest and tell us why, otherwise you can just stf


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## Doc Mindstorm (Sep 15, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> A simple question, why do you think EMS sasuke's susano became bigger and stronger than MS sasuke's?


Because he is not turning blind from over-usage - then again Sasuke gained "EMS form" while still having MS when he was raging about Itachi.


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> Because he is not turning blind from over-usage - then again Sasuke gained "EMS form" while still having MS when he was raging about Itachi.



No its not exactly the answer as to why his susano was stronger/bigger, it was because having EMS gave him more chakra quantity/quality, when he upgraded to rinngena, his susano grew significantly stronger again, thanks to having rikudou chakra, the stronger the eyes the more potent one's chakra becomes. Again the reason why sasuke's BPS is stronger, is due to taking in more chakra. This goes to show that chakra is what determines how strong susano is.

Another example, kakashi had MS, but he was able to awaken PS thanks to having rikudou chakra, as i said, chakra is what the determining factor as to why susano is stronger. 

If you still dont believe me, you need to like, reread the manga, i dont need to pull out scans cuz this is like the most basic of things to know, if you dont then you just gotta reread the manga (no offence)


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 15, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> There is a reason why kishi said madara was too strong, go and cry because kishi made him OP, nobodies business man, if you have a reason of why he can't use PS, be my guest and tell us why, otherwise you can just stf


My my, aren't we getting hostile.

There is a reason he said Hiruzen was the strongest.
There is a reason he said Hashirama was the strongest.
There is a reason he said Madara was the strongest.
They were when he said it. 
Things change.

If you have any reason why Naruto can't do what I said or ,heck, any cannon feats from Madara that would actually bother Naruto you are formally invited to present them or, as you so eloquently attempted to say , STFU.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> My my, aren't we getting hostile.
> 
> There is a reason he said Hiruzen was the strongest.
> There is a reason he said Hashirama was the strongest.
> ...




The difference between me and you is, i can prove he can use it and you can't, you telling me madara can't use something because he didn't use it is like me saying hashi can't use deep forest bloom because he didn't use it. 

If you say i'm making shit up, you can prove me wrong not claim i'm wrong because you dont want him to have said ability


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## Doc Mindstorm (Sep 15, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> No its not exactly the answer as to why his susano was stronger/bigger, it was because having EMS gave him more chakra quantity/quality, when he upgraded to rinngena, his susano grew significantly stronger again, thanks to having rikudou chakra, the stronger the eyes the more potent one's chakra becomes. Again the reason why sasuke's BPS is stronger, is due to taking in more chakra. This goes to show that chakra is what determines how strong susano is.


And it's all totally wrong EMS never said to do anything except stop blindness and give one particular justu(but that was scrapped as far as know). Power of PS is directly attributed to hatred wich affects quality of chakra and eyes themselfs that's how Sasuke evolved his Susanno during Kage meeting arc while still having MS. So there is nothing wrong with Sasuke gaining PS after getting Rinnegan - his Sharingan powers reached it's limit because of SP chakra. What I said you to prove was is that PS itself(of Rinnegan user) having some power feats that places Sasuke's PS above Madara's PS



uchihakil said:


> Another example, kakashi had MS, but he was able to awaken PS thanks to having rikudou chakra, as i said, chakra is what the determining factor as to why susano is stronger.


And Madara was able to get PS with EMS so while SP chakra may possibly boost Sasanoo it's still will get at PS level max so and considering Madara gained this level without SP chakra or Rinnegan - it's simply not needed. Madara is just more talented as Sharingan user than Sasuke or Kakashi. Again point is not that SP chakra skips eyes right to PS level advancement, point is about how much it gives to PS beyond Sharingan.



uchihakil said:


> If you still dont believe me, you need to like, reread the manga, i dont need to pull out scans cuz this is like the most basic of things to know, if you dont then you just gotta reread the manga (no offence)


Problem is again your claim is moot and even if I reread whole series again it will not change anything because there is nothing to prove that Sasuke PS is stronger than Madara's PS.


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> And it's all totally wrong EMS never said to do anything except stop blindness and give one particular justu(but that was scrapped as far as know). Power of PS is directly attributed to hatred wich affects quality of chakra and eyes themselfs that's how Sasuke evolved his Susanno during Kage meeting arc while still having MS. So there is nothing wrong with Sasuke gaining PS after getting Rinnegan - his Sharingan powers reached it's limit because of SP chakra. What I said you to prove was is that PS itself(of Rinnegan user) having some power feats that places Sasuke's PS above Madara's PS
> 
> 
> And Madara was able to get PS with EMS so while SP chakra may possibly boost Sasanoo it's still will get at PS level max so and considering Madara gained this level without SP chakra or Rinnegan - it's simply not needed. Madara is just more talented as Sharingan user than Sasuke or Kakashi. Again point is not that SP chakra skips eyes right to PS level advancement, point is about how much it gives to PS beyond Sharingan.
> ...



So you want to tell me unlocking PS is based off of talent? So basically MS kakashi is more talented than EMS sasuke?? Okay man there's no helping you i guess


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

@Troyse22 help me explain to @Doc Mindstorm


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## Doc Mindstorm (Sep 15, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> So you want to tell me unlocking PS is based off of talent? So basically MS kakashi is more talented than EMS sasuke?? Okay man there's no helping you i guess


Um what? Kakashi got PS from Obito ghost and he only have MS anyways. Stop moving goal posts show me where is Sasuke PS is stronger than EMS Madara's?


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## uchihakil (Sep 15, 2017)

Doc Mindstorm said:


> Um what? Kakashi got PS from Obito ghost and he only have MS anyways. Stop moving goal posts show me where is Sasuke PS is stronger than EMS Madara's?



I was giving you an example with kakashi and why he got PS with MS, maybe @Troyse22 can explain better than i did


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## Doc Mindstorm (Sep 15, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> I was giving you an example with kakashi and why he got PS with MS, maybe @Troyse22 can explain better than i did


You are giving me example of someone reaching _Madara's EMS PS level_ with SP chakra you need to show me where SP chakra or Rinnegan make PS more powerful than EMS PS level and istead of doing so you are moving goal posts.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 15, 2017)

Chakra Quantity has little to do with the power of a Susanoo, they can definitely maintain its various stages for much longer but it has little to do with the power of PS.

Dojutsu does not increase chakra quantity, all it does is lessen the effects and strain of using Dojutsu techs from what I've seen.

Madara's JPS would not be way above Sasuke's BPS because of the difference in chakra quantity, that's nonsense, the difference lies in the power of the Juubi as opposed to nine individual Bijuu. Of course Madara could maintain his JPS almost indefinitely.

Madara was able to control the Shinju+Juubi and 3 Rinnegan with no difficulty until Zetsu did whatever he did to him, resulting in him losing control and being overpowered by Kaguya. his chakra control is superb, lets not pretend Madara's chakra control will cause him not to be able to form PS, especially when an inferior Madara can use PS.

Is someone really arguing Mads can't use a superior version of PS while he's a JJ? It's dumb, why would a superior version of Madara not be able to use his own techs that an inferior version of Madara could, in fact logic dictates his Susanoo would be beyond anything we've seen in Naruto or Boruto so far.

If Sasuke was a pseudo JJ as you're implying, he would have received the trademark Gudodama, as well as white hair and a sword of Nunoboku. The result of the combination of all 9 Bijuu>>>>>>>9 Bijuu, even all 9 Bijuu together would get negged by the Juubi.

Chakra potency makes the difference in power between Susanoo's, amongst all canon users of Susanoo it would be something like

Madara (JJ, and Rikudo Senjutsu Chakra put him way above everyone else)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>VOTE II BPS Sasuke>Adult Sasuke>EMS Mads>EMS PS Sasuke>Itachi's V4>MS Sasuke


Madara's chakra power/potency as a JJ is what would make his Susanoo nigh unstoppable, again it would be beyond anything we've seen in Naruto or Boruto.

Madara normally has very potent chakra, throw 3 Rinnegan, the Juubi+Shinju and RSM and any logical person is going to tell you that Madara's Susanoo would be insane, idk why you're arguing against it.


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## Doc Mindstorm (Sep 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> snip


Wall of text but I answer key points.
Sasuke was not pseudo JJ. His BSP was pseudo Jubi - that's totally different thing. Madara achieved PS wich is Susanoo pinnacle - BSP is not even pure Susanoo it's Jubi chakra coated with Susanoo - which is controlled by Rinnegan -JJ Madara also can do this kind of trick but he does not need to his JJ arsenal is way better than BPS Susanoo.
Simply speaking we don't know if there is any power scaling beyond PS - BPS is coating variation like on on Fox, from what we know it's more like Madara's JJ powers will be inhibited by PS wich is only on subpar biju lvl.


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 15, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> The difference between me and you is, i can prove he can use it and you can't, you telling me madara can't use something because he didn't use it is like me saying hashi can't use deep forest bloom because he didn't use it.
> 
> If you say i'm making shit up, you can prove me wrong not claim i'm wrong because you dont want him to have said ability


Ah, much more civil, thanks.

I can't prove what? 
That Naruto can make a thousands of clones?
That he can use Senpo: Cho Biju Rasenshruiken? 
That Kurama said that he was going to teach him how to give and take chakra at will?
I sure can sir, these things are what we call "actually in the manga".

Also,


Hi no Ishi said:


> Man the Madara fans "what if he uses this thing he didn't or couldn't in the manga" game is still going strong.



I was clearly neither singling you out, nor specifically saying Madara cannot use Susano'o for some reason.

What I am saying is people saying "his Susano'o is THIS strong so GG." Or "special never seen before type attack GG" does not work for me.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## Kyu (Sep 15, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> -- can't compete in CQC either.



Hate to break it to you, but _Teen_ Naruto has greater feats in that regard:

Overpowered _Kaguya_ [1], [2]
Blitzed the shit outta her [3]

Kaguya is >>> Madara in every combat-related category, barring intellect.

Adult Naruto is > Teen Naruto all around.

I'm not even saying Naruto can keep Madara down, but the mere claim of Madara destroying in an area where he's clearly outclassed is disingenuous hogwash. 



ARGUS said:


> Not when Madaras limbos canonically defeated RSM clones and added



Madara's limbo doppelgangers are equal to the original. RSM Naruto's kage bunshin are inferior to the original. The fact Madara's limbo couldn't outright one-shot everyone of Naruto's RSM clones is indication that the supposed gap in their CQC capabilities is hardly as prominent as you're suggesting. 



ARGUS said:


> ST



Canonically countered by a rampaging beast. [4], [5]



uchihakil said:


> > madara faced the best taijutsu user in history and survived his taijutsu


Madara got his shit pushed in every time 8G Gai touched him and only survived due to Yagai not being aimed at his head. 

Make no mistake, whenever it came down to pure taijutsu, it was a one-sided mauling.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Arles Celes (Sep 15, 2017)

Kyu said:


> Madara got his shit pushed in every time 8G Gai touched him and only survived due to Yagai not being aimed at his head.
> 
> Make no mistake, whenever it came down to pure taijutsu, it was a one-sided mauling.



Hmmm...but did we not see Guy having his jacket destroyed, wounds on his body and bleeding from his mouth?

Granted it was handled in a lame way off panel (not unlike what happened in the Hashi Vs Madara fight after Kurama was put to sleep) but it still happened. We did not see Guy coughing blood before due to the use of the 8th Gate(nor Guy nor Lee ever did so using any other Gate) nor having clothes destroyed due to the user's body burning said clothes or something.

Its implied therefore that Madara managed to land hits on Guy too off panel. Plus for Guy to come this far in the first place he needed help from Kakashi, Minato, Gaara and Lee. Even after the off panel clash we saw Kakashi panting hard implying that he tried to help Guy stay alive in some way.


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## jonnty6 (Sep 15, 2017)

Well flying past the sasuke susanoo stuff, I think the better question is can naruto actually seal madara away on his own? Who has the better CQC this time around? How much can madara's regen take?

I personally feel like Naruto can certainly take this madara on own and do fairly well but "stomping" is out of the question perhaps 50/50 between the two without their megazords.

Let's not act like Naruto's jutsu's won't do jackshit to madara and let's not act like madara's jutsu's wont do jackshit to naruto, without that OP regen Madara has, honestly the same superpowered rasengan on momoshiki but would likely fuck up madara. The biggest problem would be the Juubi juiced Susanoo imo but at the same time I feel like Naruto needs to land a good Cho Bijuu Rasenshuriken and Cho Fuuton Rasenshuriken combo to break it. 

Idk dude it's kind of hard because Naruto doesn't 100% rely on A>b>C logic with only a select few and even then it's still pretty wonky. Like first they say Naruto needed sasuke to compete with JJ Madara, next thing we know naruto is handling Madara on his own with some clones and then the data book(Grain of salt I know) says naruto's speed is on par with JJ madara, then they say kaguya's chakra is>>>>JJ Madara next thing we know Naruto is giving her hay-makers on several occasions and has YET to use his Kurama kaiju let alone absorbs the buttload of planet senjutsu(Was it a planet's worth? I forget) or uses his ashura kaiju but does all of that against sasuke at VOTE.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Muah (Sep 15, 2017)

Pretty sure Naruto can decapitate mads and shred his limbs off and seal him with whatever sealing techiques he knows. pretty anticlamatic if he can't use the reaper seal. He has a sealing technique from ichibi that may not work but he should be physically his superior. even with infinite chakara Mads can summon all the meteors he wants Naruto punched a guy off the moon. He spent over a decade becoming a hokage so he should be reasonably skilled. I mean gai almost killed him so he can die.


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## Monty Burns (Sep 15, 2017)

jonnty6 said:


> Well flying past the sasuke susanoo stuff, I think the better question is can naruto actually seal madara away on his own? Who has the better CQC this time around? How much can madara's regen take?


He won't need to seal him away. Chõ Bijū Rasenshuriken will partially extract the Bijūs like it did to Kaguya. Then he can force them out by blasting Madara with a Chõ Õdama Rasengan that sent a stronger version in fused Momoshiki to outta space. Though he can seal him if he needs to.



jonnty6 said:


> The biggest problem would be the Juubi juiced Susanoo imo but at the same time I feel like Naruto needs to land a good Cho Bijuu Rasenshuriken and Cho Fuuton Rasenshuriken combo to break it.


I agree with this. But Naruto is faster so he could bypass its offenses and shatter it by using the jutsu you said in conjuction with his Ashura Kurama Modõ and nature energy amp.



jonnty6 said:


> Idk dude it's kind of hard because Naruto doesn't 100% rely on A>b>C logic with only a select few and even then it's still pretty wonky.


True, though teen Naruto pressured Kaguya (who's stronger than Madara) on his lonesome.This is ABC logic but fighting Kaguya 1v1 for a while pretty much tells us how he'd fair against a weaker version.



jonnty6 said:


> YET to use his Kurama kaiju let alone absorbs the buttload of planet senjutsu(Was it a planet's worth? I forget) or uses his ashura kaiju but does all of that against sasuke at VOTE.


He was probably learning his new powers as he was going along. Now though, he has complete mastery, experience and 100% Kurama. Let's also not forget that he was no where near 100% during his battle with Kaguya. He was very very tired, yet still went on to beat Sasuke (who used the power of 8.5 Bijūs).

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## Kyu (Sep 15, 2017)

Arles Celes said:


> Hmmm...but did we not see Guy having his jacket destroyed, wounds on his body and bleeding from his mouth?
> 
> Granted it was handled in a lame way off panel (not unlike what happened in the Hashi Vs Madara fight after Kurama was put to sleep) but it still happened. We did not see Guy coughing blood before due to the use of the 8th Gate(nor Guy nor Lee ever did so using any other Gate) nor having clothes destroyed due to the user's body burning said clothes or something.



His jacket destroyed and holes in his clothes _might_ be a result of Madara trying to keep Gai the hell away from him via ninjutsu.

But was Madara anything other than a punching bag in straight up hand-2-hand? Fuck no.




Arles Celes said:


> Its implied therefore that Madara managed to land hits on Guy too off panel.



Again, it's possible using ninjutsu. 

Taijutsu? Before Madara so much as throws one punch, he'll be swallowing his own shattered teeth. 



Arles Celes said:


> Plus for Guy to come this far in the first place he needed help from Kakashi, Minato, Gaara and Lee. Even after the off panel clash we saw Kakashi panting hard implying that he tried to help Guy stay alive in some way.



........Hence why I said: 





> Madara got his shit pushed in *every time 8G Gai touched him*



Gai's not touching him with Truth-Seekers into the equation. 

Should go without saying...


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 15, 2017)

Muah said:


> Pretty sure Naruto can decapitate mads and shred his limbs off and seal him with whatever sealing techiques he knows.


 You are correct sir, in fact Sasuke, Shukaku, and Naruto were all certain that Naruto could seal his movements. 
He also actually sealed the Limbo clones movement, and since they have the same powers as Madara he almost certainly can't get out either.


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## uchihakil (Sep 16, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> You are correct sir, in fact Sasuke, Shukaku, and Naruto were all certain that Naruto could seal his movements.
> He also actually sealed the Limbo clones movement, and since they have the same powers as Madara he almost certainly can't get out either.




No not only did naruto needed sasuke's help, that was a seal to momentarily bind madara's movement, it wasn't a permanent solution, even then, he needed sasuke's ameno + rikudou enhanced chidori further proving naruto couldn't do that alone.


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## uchihakil (Sep 16, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> He won't need to seal him away. Chõ Bijū Rasenshuriken will partially extract the Bijūs like it did to Kaguya. Then he can force them out by blasting Madara with a Chõ Õdama Rasengan that sent a stronger version in fused Momoshiki to outta space. Though he can seal him if he needs to.
> 
> 
> I agree with this. But Naruto is faster so he could bypass its offenses and shatter it by using the jutsu you said in conjuction with his Ashura Kurama Modõ and nature energy amp.
> ...




Madara =/= Momoshiki goddammit 

Madara in a weaker version tanked an attack that shits on the attack that wrecked momoshiki, so stop using momo to gauge madara's dura because one in a much weaker version tanked an attack stronger than what the other did in his strongest form against a weaker attack.

Naruto is not faster than Madara, not in any way, form , or manner, not once in their encounter did he blitz madara, madara reacted to all his assaults, even murking him with limbo and pushing him back in a weaker version, + he destroyed naruto's clone in a small time frame even while the clones were using ninjutsu.

Madara has rinnegan techniques to beat and overwhelm naruto like he did in canon (CT + Limbo)


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## T-Bag (Sep 16, 2017)

Madara warps behind him like this and game over

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 16, 2017)

Muah said:


> Pretty sure Naruto can decapitate mads and shred his limbs off and seal him with whatever sealing techiques he knows. pretty anticlamatic if he can't use the reaper seal. He has a sealing technique from ichibi that may not work but he should be physically his superior. even with infinite chakara Mads can summon all the meteors he wants Naruto punched a guy off the moon. He spent over a decade becoming a hokage so he should be reasonably skilled. I mean gai almost killed him so he can die.



Naruto punched a toneri, Toneri IS NOT Madara, OMG, just stop putting them on madara's level (momo and toneri) they are not, madara tanked attacks stronger than the other two did, Madara tanked a direct EE punch > the last naruto punch, that aint even phasing madara and a kick that distorts space in his WEAKEST FORM. Just stop comparing madara to these guys


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## AdamWiz (Sep 16, 2017)

T-Bag said:


> Madara warps behind him like this and game over


Madara is not Kaguya


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## T-Bag (Sep 16, 2017)

AdamWiz said:


> Madara is not Kaguya



He can be. They are using one and the same Rinneisharingan and the same body

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## AdamWiz (Sep 16, 2017)

T-Bag said:


> He can be. They are using one and the same Rinneisharingan and the same body


But not the same jutsus


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## T-Bag (Sep 16, 2017)

AdamWiz said:


> But not the same jutsus



Mugen tsukuyomi isn't a shared jutsu? what about the world of trees? no?

lol.


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## uchihakil (Sep 16, 2017)

T-Bag said:


> He can be. They are using one and the same Rinneisharingan and the same body




Madara doesn't need the rinnesharingan to beat naruto, rinnesharingan makes it neg diff thanks to IT


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## T-Bag (Sep 16, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Madara doesn't need the rinnesharingan to beat naruto, rinnesharingan makes it neg diff thanks to IT



Oh I agree. But just throwing that out there so people don't forget the potential Madara has.

Naruto by himself stands absolutely no chance against a god.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 16, 2017)

T-Bag said:


> Oh I agree. But just throwing that out there so people don't forget the potential Madara has.
> 
> Naruto by himself stands absolutely no chance against a god.



True dat, its pretty damn obvious, to counter and attack madara naruto needed assistance from sasuke, that alone proves he can't do it alone, they had to work as a team to take down a single Limbo, teamwork was needed for that, if naruto was left alone, how does he accomplish something like that??


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## Mar55 (Sep 16, 2017)

T-Bag said:


> He can be. They are using one and the same Rinneisharingan and the same body


That's false on two fronts. For starters, that same eye isn't actually the same. His closed when Kaguya took over his body and hers opened, indicating a difference between them. Also, we already know that awakening the same eye doesn't suddenly mean you'll have the same or even similar powers. Take the Rinnegan for example, they all seems to have the same basic abilities, yet also have individual ones that don't seem to crossover. Like Momo's absorb and return ability, Sasuke's Amenotejikara, or even Madara's own Limbo. 

For the other, while they may have the same body, as she stole his, the quantity and quality of chakra therein are worlds apart. Just him being forced to take on her most basic level of chakra nearly made him explode. She then goes on to power up even further, absorbing more chakra than she had to start with. Even then, it likely is still less than her prime, when all chakra was hers.

Trying to give Madara Kaguya's abilities and feats isn't gonna work, as they don't crossover. Especially since Naruto has dealt with them before anyway.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## AdamWiz (Sep 16, 2017)

T-Bag said:


> Mugen tsukuyomi isn't a shared jutsu? what about the world of trees? no?
> 
> lol.


What about Kaguya's kekkei genkai & her teleportation ninjutsu? dimensions? expansive truth seeking ball? Madara doesn't have any of those.

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## Mar55 (Sep 16, 2017)

AdamWiz said:


> What about Kaguya's kekkei genkai & her teleportation ninjutsu? dimensions? expansive truth seeking ball? Madara doesn't have any of those.


Just a correction, Kekkei Mora.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 16, 2017)

People act like Madara wasn't significantly weakened by BZ when Kaguya took over, gotta say it's one of the more annoying things in the NBD


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## Mar55 (Sep 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> People act like Madara wasn't significantly weakened by BZ when Kaguya took over, gotta say it's one of the more annoying things in the NBD


Weakened? In what way? As far as I could tell, he was the same as always, just paralyzed and forced to absorb massive chakra. Which, btw, actually made him stronger.


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 16, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> No not only did naruto needed sasuke's help, that was a seal to momentarily bind madara's movement, it wasn't a permanent solution, even then, he needed sasuke's ameno + rikudou enhanced chidori further proving naruto couldn't do that alone.


The sealing jutsu was on Naruto, positioning was Sasuke.

As shown by Sasuke leaving and the Limbo not being able to do anything still due to the seal.

It's like saying "Minato can't use RDS unless Kushina uses her barrier first!" Even though the unrelated jutsu were used in concert.

Also Madara clearly was not overwhelming them, Naruto held off the Limbo clones and wrecked the meteor drop without taking a scratch.
Sasuke wasn't even hurt at all.
Unlike with Gai, this powered up Madara was actually trying to kill them with light fang and things the whole time and couldn't.

Then to say a stronger Naruto has no chance a beating a guy who couldn't manage to kill Naruto when Naruto was a kid on top of that is just ignoring context.

Like "Orochimaru lost his arms to Hiruzen in part 1, so the same would happen with war arc Orochimaru!" Logic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## T-Bag (Sep 16, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> That's false on two fronts. For starters, that same eye isn't actually the same. His closed when Kaguya took over his body and hers opened, indicating a difference between them. Also, we already know that awakening the same eye doesn't suddenly mean you'll have the same or even similar powers. Take the Rinnegan for example, they all seems to have the same basic abilities, yet also have individual ones that don't seem to crossover. Like Momo's absorb and return ability, Sasuke's Amenotejikara, or even Madara's own Limbo.
> 
> For the other, while they may have the same body, as she stole his, the quantity and quality of chakra therein are worlds apart. Just him being forced to take on her most basic level of chakra nearly made him explode. She then goes on to power up even further, absorbing more chakra than she had to start with. Even then, it likely is still less than her prime, when all chakra was hers.
> 
> Trying to give Madara Kaguya's abilities and feats isn't gonna work, as they don't crossover. Especially since Naruto has dealt with them before anyway.



Madara is the _shinju_, thus he is _kaguya_. He merged with her when he became the jinchuriki and opened the rinnei sharingan, her rinnegan sharingan. Madara was her vessel which means Kaguya was able to come out of him because he had that potential to host all that chakra.

Nothing indicates Madara cannot handle her chakra, that would go against the plot. Rikudou mentioned he has gotten close to his power and now is aiming for kaguya's power. Madara's goal was to become like kaguya after all. The problem was Black zetsu, not madara's inability to control all that chakra. He did something to Madara that made him unable to move thus disabling him from having control over his body when all that chakra was being poured in to him


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## Mar55 (Sep 16, 2017)

T-Bag said:


> Madara is the _shinju_, thus he is _kaguya_. He merged with her when he became the jinchuriki and opened the rinnei sharingan, her rinnegan sharingan. Madara was her vessel which means Kaguya was able to come out of him because he had that potential to host all that chakra.
> 
> Nothing indicates Madara cannot handle her chakra, that would go against the plot. Rikudou mentioned he has gotten close to his power and now is aiming for kaguya's power. Madara's goal was to become like kaguya after all. The problem was Black zetsu, not madara's inability to control all that chakra. He did something to Madara that made him unable to move thus disabling him from having control over his body when all that chakra was being poured in to him


None of this addressed my point, and it's not even technically correct anyway.


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## T-Bag (Sep 16, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> None of this addressed my point, and it's not even technically correct anyway.



I cannot begin to address your points when you disregard the most fundamental concepts.


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## Ashi (Sep 16, 2017)

How does he kill him tho


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## Mar55 (Sep 16, 2017)

T-Bag said:


> I cannot begin to address your points when you disregard the most fundamental concepts.


What concepts are those? That we've been shown time and again that same eye =/= same abilities? Or maybe that Madara's is shown actually closing before Kaguya's opens? Or maybe that even with eyes sharing basic abilities, they are still shown to have exclusive abilities. Because the only person disregarding here those things is you.


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## uchihakil (Sep 16, 2017)

Madara can most definately use her portal technique, all the other rinnegan high tier users could, i dont see why madara can't
> kaguya used her rinnesharingan
> sasuke used his rinnegan
> and momo used his rinnegan (i'm pretty sure he used his rinnegan not his byakugan)

(that means madara who has a superior doujutsu to Sasuke, the same rinnesharingan with kaguya, and the same number of rinnegans with momo can most definately use the portal technique)


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## uchihakil (Sep 16, 2017)

The only techniques i dont see him using is ETSB ,her dimension changing ability and other byakugan related techniques


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## Mar55 (Sep 16, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Madara can most definately use her portal technique, all the other rinnegan high tier users could, i dont see why madara can't
> > kaguya used her rinnesharingan
> > sasuke used his rinnegan
> > and momo used his rinnegan (i'm pretty sure he used his rinnegan not his byakugan)
> ...


That's not an argument. They didn't use her technique, they used their own, and they don't function like hers did. If even it did, feats are not transferable. Try again.


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## T-Bag (Sep 16, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> What concepts are those? That we've been shown time and again that same eye =/= same abilities? Or maybe that Madara's is shown actually closing before Kaguya's opens? Or maybe that even with eyes sharing basic abilities, they are still shown to have exclusive abilities. Because the only person disregarding here those things is you.



You are confusing things. They are one and the same rinnei sharingan, sharing the same body- the shinju. He is HER, and she is him. These aren't 2 different rinnei sharingans, or 2 different sharingans. And I don't remember madara's rinnei sharingan closing, i remember him blowing up and then reforming which is to be expected as the body structure is transforming.


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## Mar55 (Sep 16, 2017)

T-Bag said:


> You are confusing things. They are one and the same rinnei sharingan, sharing the same body- the shinju. He is HER. These aren't 2 different rinnegan sharingans, or 2 different sharingans. And I don't remember madara's rinnei sharingan closing, i remember him blowing up and then reforming which is to be expected as the body structure is transforming.


Here's the thing, he isn't her. Stop spouting that, it won't become true anytime soon. Evidenced by the difference in literally everything about them. He may have used her power source as his own, but that doesn't make them the same person. I don't even know what this argument is.

You remember incorrectly.
 His eye, along with everything, is covered by Zetsu's goo. Then Kaguya's emerges from underneath it. Clearly not the same.

Edit: here's a gif to drive the point home. I can't seem to link it, but here. Just copy paste this: 6221/1267f6d521036f210fdf4b70d9f82302a406f55f_hq.gif


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## T-Bag (Sep 16, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Here's the thing, he isn't her. Stop spouting that, it won't become true anytime soon. Evidenced by the difference in literally everything about them. He may have used her power source as his own, but that doesn't make them the same person. I don't even know what this argument is.
> 
> You remember incorrectly.
> His eye, along with everything, is covered by Zetsu's goo. Then Kaguya's emerges from underneath it. Clearly not the same.
> ...



The argument is that he is capable of using her abilities because he is HOSTING her chakra. He used mugen tsukuyomi? check. Used the world of trees? check. Sasuke was able to jump into kaguya;s dimensions with a weak version of rinnei sharingan? check.

Why can't Madara do it again? See you're not making any sense.

PS: Idk what those images are meant to prove. All i see is kaguya emerging from Madara.


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## AdamWiz (Sep 16, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Just a correction, Kekkei Mora.


Thanks.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 16, 2017)

T-Bag said:


> The argument is that he is capable of using her abilities because he is HOSTING her chakra. He used mugen tsukuyomi? check. Used the world of trees? check. Sasuke was able to jump into kaguya;s dimensions with a weak version of rinnei sharingan? check.
> 
> Why can't Madara do it again? See you're not making any sense.
> 
> PS: Idk what those images are meant to prove. All i see is kaguya emerging from Madara.




All it proves is that the Madara Hateboner on these forums is real.

Seriously, why is pre JJ Mads so overrated and JJ Mads wildly underrated?


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## uchihakil (Sep 16, 2017)

True, its pretty much like kakashi and DMS or MS, its obito's eyes but he can use it, so yes as a matter of fact madara can use her rinnesharingan abilities, maybe he can't spam/use the dimension shifting move (nobody even uses it in a debate) but he should be able to use it


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## T-Bag (Sep 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> All it proves is that the Madara Hateboner on these forums is real.
> 
> Seriously, why is pre JJ Mads so overrated and JJ Mads wildly underrated?



This forum was originally called Naruto Fan Forums, it was the # 1 naruto forums. It attracted the biggest zealot's from all sides so naturally a lot of tension was involved. Now Madara is a character that hurt a lot of people emotionally because he went on a streak of beating every single powerful character or entity you can name. He outright humiliated just about every fanbase out there and so he quickly became public enemy number 1 on these forums. He was even hated and downplayed as the "Masked man" mind you, he had very little supporters here in the early days. So when he finally shows up and destroys everyone he cemented his status as the most hated character in the series (as far real characters goes, not counting sakura). He was basically the Donald Trump of naruto, the man everyone loves to hate because he's just that awesome/unstoppable

as far as why pre-jj madara is overrated and jj is underrated... that's simply because pre-jj madara was shown kicking ass left and right because Kishitmoto could afford it, but as JJ he had to be more of a defensive player or else the manga would end in 1 chapter. however some fans can't understand this


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## Mar55 (Sep 16, 2017)

T-Bag said:


> The argument is that he is capable of using her abilities because he is HOSTING her chakra. He used mugen tsukuyomi? check. Used the world of trees? check. Sasuke was able to jump into kaguya;s dimensions with a weak version of rinnei sharingan? check.
> 
> Why can't Madara do it again? See you're not making any sense.
> 
> PS: Idk what those images are meant to prove. All i see is kaguya emerging from Madara.


This is tiresome. You're not actually making any points, just spouting  the same nonsense that doesn't prove your initial claim. 

Sasuke can open a singular portal to a separate dimension, it doesn't function like Kaguya's and isn't remotely the same ability. Madara has never displayed either, so he doesn't get either. He's not implied to have either, so he doesn't get either. He isn't a listed used in any supplementary material, so he doesn't get either. 

You say I'm not making sense? That's weird, I'm just going by what the manga gives me. If that doesn't make sense, blame Kishi.

As is obvious from that picture, Madara's Rinne-Sharingan is shown being covered and closing. Then hers is shown to open in its place. So, it shows exactly what I was saying it would show since the beginning. 

Regardless, I already noted that you could give him Yomotsu Hirasaka, and it would change literally nothing. Naruto has already faced and dealt with this technique before, and it had the favor of surprise then, it wouldn't now. 

Anyway, I'm done with this argument. Seems pointless to continue, it's obvious we're not shifting stances.


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## Mar55 (Sep 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> All it proves is that the Madara Hateboner on these forums is real.
> 
> Seriously, why is pre JJ Mads so overrated and JJ Mads wildly underrated?


For the record, I don't care about Madara. As in, no hate no love, nothing. He's mostly the same boring invincible villain Aizen was. Scraping by on asspulls, the heroes being idiots and just general bullshit.

That said, it doesn't factor into battles with the man. For reference, I largely prefer Tobirama. But that doesn't mean I would argue Tobi >> Madara, just the opposite in fact.

Not everyone lets personal feelings get in the way of being objective. You should try it with Kisame sometime, Mr Hypocrite.

Reactions: Like 1


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## T-Bag (Sep 16, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> This is tiresome. You're not actually making any points, just spouting  the same nonsense that doesn't prove your initial claim.
> 
> Sasuke can open a singular portal to a separate dimension, it doesn't function like Kaguya's and isn't remotely the same ability. Madara has never displayed either, so he doesn't get either. He's not implied to have either, so he doesn't get either. He isn't a listed used in any supplementary material, so he doesn't get either.
> 
> ...



The last databook was a complete mess so i wouldn't use it as a source , at least not for these instances.
Madara was able to use several of Kaguya's abilities so I rly don't see a reason why YH is a problem, especially when it doesn't require large sums of chakra like the amenomekia. Just because he didn't show it (what time did he have?) doesn't mean he can;t use it. It is well within the scope of his potential so i dont see why not

and yea agreed i won't go back n forth with you on this one either since i no longer have the stamina or patience to do that like in the old days. We'll respectfully agree to disagree

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Braiyan (Sep 16, 2017)

I don't remember a single time pre-Infinite Tsukuyomi that Naruto had trouble handling Madara's arsenal. And as an adult he only got stronger, as evidenced by the fact he could now throw Rasenshurikens, in base, one handed. And the fact that he has a twice as strong Kurama in him now. 

Assuming that Naruto being the meeting place for the other bijuus = he can use their chakra, then he simply blasts Madara with a Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken barrage and rips the beasts from out of him. If not, then he handles Madara's shown arsenal more or less the same way he did in canon. Therefore Limbo gets taken care of by SM clones, Force Lightning is tanked/dodged (the same with that "lightspeed" laserbeam), and CTs are either blasted with Rasenshurikens (if Naruto wants to be flashy) or outright dodged (if Naruto wants to be humiliating). 

Even if Madara is able to use PS as a Jin, I doubt he'd be more powerful than Sasuke was when he did basically the same thing at VOTE2. And I've never seen his regeneration account for being vaporized. I mean, he was "immortal" when he died from Kaguya consuming him, so Naruto eradicating him with a powerful enough attack shouldn't be so farfetched.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Monty Burns (Sep 16, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> Even if Madara is able to use PS as a Jin, I doubt he'd be more powerful than Sasuke was when he did basically the same thing at VOTE2.


This is true. Sasuke received a greater Rikūdo boost from Hagaromo which is stronger than what Madara received by combining his and Hashirama's chakra. Though Madara possesses the Jūbi which is stronger than Sasuke absorbing the power of 8.5 Bijū. Not as if Madara's would be tiers above Sasuke. It'd be nothing out of Naruto's reach to handle.


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## ARGUS (Sep 16, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> This is true. Sasuke received a greater Rikūdo boost from Hagaromo which is stronger than what Madara received by combining his and Hashirama's chakra. Though Madara possesses the Jūbi which is stronger than Sasuke absorbing the power of 8.5 Bijū. Not as if Madara's would be tiers above Sasuke. It'd be nothing out of Naruto's reach to handle.


What are you on about 
Madaras Buff of gaining the juubi and both Rinnegan is far above what Sasuke gained in the form of the Rinnegan 

Sasukes Yin may may be superior but even that is stretching it, but the fact that he has no yang whatsoever should end any debate of him being just as strong as Madara


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## Monty Burns (Sep 16, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> What are you on about
> Madaras Buff of gaining the juubi and both Rinnegan is far above what Sasuke gained in the form of the Rinnegan
> 
> Sasukes Yin may may be superior but even that is stretching it, but the fact that he has no yang whatsoever should end any debate of him being just as strong as Madara


I was comparing their Susanoo's. I already agreed JJ Madara's PS would be stronger than Sasuke's BPS.


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## ARGUS (Sep 16, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> I was comparing their Susanoo's. I already agreed JJ Madara's PS would be stronger than Sasuke's BPS.


Im Not talking about strength or Ps
I'm talking about boosts
You stated that Sasukes buff is more than Madara but it isn't 
That's all 

As for PS vs BPS, even if Madaras Ps is weaker, his strongest offense is stronger than IA so it still doesn't matter


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## ARGUS (Sep 16, 2017)

Kyu said:


> Hate to break it to you, but _Teen_ Naruto has greater feats in that regard:
> 
> Overpowered _Kaguya_ [1], [2]
> Blitzed the shit outta her [3]


Yet he lost to Limbos 
And adult naruto has gotten worse in physical abilities and battle instincts 



> Kaguya is >>> Madara in every combat-related category, barring intellect.


Irrelevant because when narutos clones confronted limbo, they lost 


> Adult Naruto is > Teen Naruto all around.


This is a misconception 
Adult Sasuke got far better than his teen self in cqc since he went from bein much slower than naruto to being on the same level as him. 
Naruto on the other got worse in cqc but gained more power after getting the other half of Kyuubi 



> I'm not even saying Naruto can keep Madara down, but the mere claim of Madara destroying in an area where he's clearly outclassed is disingenuous hogwash.


Cqc is more than hand to hand combat 
When we have Madara whose tools can absorb his shroud, 
When he has weapons, and when he has a superior construct, then yeah he does lose 

Naruto being faster than Madara doesn't mean he can defeat him in cqc 



> Madara's limbo doppelgangers are equal to the original. RSM Naruto's kage bunshin are inferior to the original.


Wrong.
That only happens when naruto makes far too many clones that it affects the original 
Otherwise the clones would still have the same ability 

Kcm narutos limit was 12, that meant that any more and then the original would get affected physically, RSMs limit is way more than that, 



> The fact Madara's limbo couldn't outright one-shot everyone of Naruto's RSM clones is indication that the supposed gap in their CQC capabilities is hardly as prominent as you're suggesting.


He doesn't have to one shot them 
But he did defeat them, so that's irrelevant 
Not to mention that PS would one shot any humanoid clones in one go if naruto forms too many of them 
As i stated 



> Canonically countered by a rampaging beast. [4], [5]


Wow,
Didn't know that a Normal sized ST from deva path was on the same level as prime Jin Madaras 



> Madara got his shit pushed in every time 8G Gai touched him and only survived due to Yagai not being aimed at his head.
> 
> Make no mistake, whenever it came down to pure taijutsu, it was a one-sided mauling.


 -- irrelevant when that Madara is weaker than this one, by a fair margin 
 -- irrelevant when guy could only land his blows due to Minato warping the tsb 
away 
 -- irrelevant when narutos physical attacks don't pack anywhere the power of night guy. 

Make no mistake 
I'll DefInitely give it to naruto being much faster and reflexive than Madara because that is both a manga and DB fact 
But cqc doesn't need to Just include speed and hand to hand combat 

Things like weapons and ninjutsu cna also come in play, and that is why Madara would overwhelm him 

Not to mention that this battle won't even get to that stage because a construct and nuke war is easily in Madaras favor


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## Daio (Sep 17, 2017)

Naruto has the power to incapacitate Madara, however, I don't know if he has the means to kill him.


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 17, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> And adult naruto has gotten worse in physical abilities





ARGUS said:


> That only happens when naruto makes far too many clones that it affects the original
> Otherwise the clones would still have the same ability
> 
> Kcm narutos limit was 12, that meant that any more and then the original would get affected physically, RSMs limit is way more than that,


 is any of this stated anywhere?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 17, 2017)

Kai said:


> Naruto and Sasuke are undoubtly above their teenage incarnations, but before getting utterly carried away with nonsense like soloing Madara - remember Naruto and Sasuke got punked by Shin.
> 
> Neither is soloing JJ Madara.



This is true. If Hussain dislikes a post, it means there were some decent facts.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Sep 17, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> is any of this stated anywhere?



No. Kuruma said Naruto had gotten a dulled battle sense after so many years of peace. Nothing about physical ability. Some translations  say that kuruma called him rusty. However that was during gaiden, Quite some time passes between gaiden and the movie. Since Boruto was a genin and is taking the chuunin exams in the movie.

What we know about shadow clones: 
They seem to posses the same physics stats as the original and the justu is just as strong. 

However, they have shit durability. A single hit can disperse them. 

The fact that limbo defeated shadow clones is meaningless, they have horrid durability. Claiming otherwise is  disingenuous. Limbo is stated to create an exact replica, this is supported by the fact that Naruto nailed one with his gudoudama staff and it only got a bruise. 

Limbo- same durability as original. - however damage to a limbo clone is transferred to original. 

Shadow clone- single hit can destroy them.

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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 17, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> No. Kuruma said Naruto had gotten a dulled battle sense after so many years of peace. Nothing about physical ability. Some translations  say that kuruma called him rusty. However that was during gaiden, Quite some time passes between gaiden and the movie. Since Boruto was a genin and is taking the chuunin exams in the movie.
> 
> What we know about shadow clones:
> They seem to posses the same physics stats as the original and the justu is just as strong.
> ...


Yeah, I thought so.
It's when people have to make stuff up to try to win a debate that they should worry
...


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## Troyse22 (Sep 18, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Yeah, I thought so.
> It's when people have to make stuff up to try to win a debate that they should worry
> ...



Reminds me of @Serene Grace (joking around man chill out)

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 18, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> What we know about shadow clones:
> They seem to posses the same physics stats as the original and the justu is just as strong.



If you got chakra reserves like Naruto and can distribute an even amount of chakra- but they'll never be as strong as the original since the original Naruto has a crap load of chakra.



> However, they have shit durability. A single hit can disperse them.



This depends as we saw vs Kaguya.



> Limbo- same durability as original. - however damage to a limbo clone is transferred to original.



Since when?  The manga shows the opposite of what you described.



> Shadow clone- single hit can destroy them.



If you tried to prove shadow clones = Limbo, then you failed.


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Reminds me of @Serene Grace (joking around man chill out)


Man, I'm cooler than a snowman having ice cream, I can't chill anymore!

Lol I can tell when your joking usually Troy. As long as it's not about the forbidden two subjects.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 18, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Man, I'm cooler than a snowman having ice cream, I can't chill anymore!
> 
> Lol I can tell when your joking usually Troy. As long as it's not about the forbidden two subjects.



JK

Or should I say...K and J?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 18, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> JK
> 
> Or should I say...K and J?



Don't be coy..


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## TheGreen1 (Sep 19, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Madara is immortal so he can't be beaten outside of Rikudou CT, without immortality, it would be a tought battle.


So, you cut his head off, what happens then? Does it continue talking like Hidan's?


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## hbcaptain (Sep 19, 2017)

TheGreen1 said:


> So, you cut his head off, what happens then? Does it continue talking like Hidan's?


It's most likely the case.
Remember, pre-Shinju absorption Madara said red Gai nearly killed him after getting blitzed then he absorbed the Shinju and said Naruto can no longer beat him since he became immortal.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Trojan (Sep 19, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> It's most likely the case.
> Remember, pre-Shinju absorption Madara said red Gai nearly killed him after getting blitzed then he absorbed the Shinju and said Naruto can no longer beat him since he became immortal.


Momoshiki said he is immortal as well. Did not stop him from getting killed.


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## T-Bag (Sep 19, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Momoshiki said he is immortal as well. Did not stop him from getting killed.


...
i shouldn't have to point this out to you cuz im sure you already know but choosing to ignore it lool......
 Madara absorbed the shinju/kaguya who was immortal. and if that isn't enough to convince people you take rikudou's action and words into consideration: He specifically gave naruto and sasuke the same technique he used to seal kaguya because sealing was the only to beat him. He can't be killed

momoshiki is a scrub lol


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## Trojan (Sep 19, 2017)

T-Bag said:


> ...
> i shouldn't have to point this out to you cuz im sure you already know but choosing to ignore it lool......
> Madara absorbed the shinju/kaguya who was immortal. and if that isn't enough to convince people you take rikudou's action and words into consideration: He specifically gave naruto and sasuke the same technique he used to seal kaguya because sealing was the only to beat him. He can't be killed
> 
> momoshiki is a scrub lol



Frankly, I don't think the Tree makes you immortal. If you take it as "Kaguya" well, the Juubi is supposedly Kaguya. So, why wasn't Asspulldara or Obito immortals? 


The place where Momoshiki was sitting had tons of Trees around. Like Asspulldara, he also claimed to be immortal. That's, however, is not the case. It's no different than when a character claims that s/he is invincible, and since Asspulldara does not have any feat to prove his immortality, I would rather take his claim with a grain of salt. 


But even if we went the extra mile to think he is immortal, Naruto can simply pull out the Bijuus out of him
or seal him with his Sealing Rassengan. So, it's not Naruto is out of options.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 19, 2017)

TheGreen1 said:


> So, you cut his head off, what happens then? Does it continue talking like Hidan's?



He lost half his body and it regenerated. 



T-Bag said:


> ...
> i shouldn't have to point this out to you cuz im sure you already know but choosing to ignore it lool......
> Madara absorbed the shinju/kaguya who was immortal. and if that isn't enough to convince people you take rikudou's action and words into consideration: He specifically gave naruto and sasuke the same technique he used to seal kaguya because sealing was the only to beat him. He can't be killed
> 
> momoshiki is a scrub lol



T-Bag... let him vent. Madara's name and the man himself owned Minato several times.


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## ARGUS (Sep 20, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> is any of this stated anywhere?


Yep, in the manga


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## genii96 (Sep 20, 2017)

JJ madara mid diff


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 20, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> Yep, in the manga


It sure isn't, sir.


ARGUS said:


> And adult naruto has gotten worse in physical abilities and battle instincts





ARGUS said:


> Kcm narutos limit was 12, that meant that any more and then the original would get affected physically, RSMs limit is way more than that,


 this is at best an embellishment.

Kurama said Naruto'sbattle senses had gotten rusty. No one said physically.

KCM Naruto was clearly stated to not be able to make clones because of the Kyubii eating his chakra, not any other reason.

Also multiple people have stated clones are not great for a decisive blow (Madara, Kakashi) they certainly aren't as good as the original.


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## ARGUS (Sep 20, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> It sure isn't, sir.
> 
> 
> this is at best an embellishment.
> ...


Uh no, if kcm naruto even created one clone then kurama would have sucked it up in no time 
Yet naruto didn't care and still opted for his max capacity 
The only reason he didn't fall was because kyuubi never took his chakra to begin with 

Yes it's an establishment because technically naruto can create a 1000 clones even as a kid 
Yet the limit is only stated because if he creates too many then his physical stats get dropped and so do his Jutsu capacities 

As for adult naruto, his battle senses droppedx and so did his cqc abilities

 -- naruto gained more raw power by getting the other half f kyuubi but lost his battle senses and physical abilities 

 -- Sasuke lost more raw power from vote but got much better at cqc and on par with adult naruto despite being far inferior to naruto in the manga


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 20, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> Uh no, if kcm naruto even created one clone then kurama would have sucked it up in no time
> Yet naruto didn't care and still opted for his max capacity
> The only reason he didn't fall was because kyuubi never took his chakra to begin with


 Except Naruto commented that Kurama had regained his size from eating Naruto's chakra. And later Gyukii says " B, haven you noticed? The nine tails must have stopped eating his chakra along time ago..." so he def was eating that chakra like groceries. That is, of course, on top of other statement directly telling you why Naruto shouldn't make clones in KCM.
Lets believe them.



ARGUS said:


> Yes it's an establishment because technically naruto can create a 1000 clones even as a kid
> Yet the limit is only stated because if he creates too many then his physical stats get dropped and so do his Jutsu capacities


It states no where that the clones are equal to the whole original though. It says their chakra is split evenly actually.


ARGUS said:


> and physical abilities


Again unsourced info. This was said no where. Unless you have a scan or page number.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 20, 2017)

ARGUS said:


> And adult naruto has gotten worse in physical abilities and battle instincts



He was just rusty i.e. hadn't fought in a while. The issue seemed to be rectified by the time Momo came to the planet. 
Physical abilities, you're making that up. If you're not, I'm happy to see your citation.



> Wrong.
> That only happens when naruto makes far too many clones that it affects the original
> Otherwise the clones would still have the same ability
> 
> Kcm narutos limit was 12, that meant that any more and then the original would get affected physically, RSMs limit is way more than that,



It will always affect Naruto physically. But Naruto has so much chakra that it doesn't matter because he'll have an adequate amount to do what he'd do. However, his capacity still takes a hit. He would've beat Sasuke if he was at full reserves, but he didn't and Naruto was making a lot of clones during the war.


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## genii96 (Sep 25, 2017)

Naruto isn't beating the jin of the juubi one on one,let alone a juubi jin with full access to his rinnegan and ems powers

Normal EMS madara (without any juubi amp)> Normal base naruto (Without any rikudo/bijuu amp)


Rinnegan+senjutsu+Juubi amp> rikudo chakra+bijuu amp


The gap between them will be even worse

Reactions: Funny 1


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## vasto lordes (Sep 25, 2017)

probably madara win

but sasuke with rinnagan+ems+8.5 biju couldn't beat naruto+half kurama+ne

without 8.5 biju chakra
rinnagan sasuke was = to 1 eye jjmadara(without god tree)


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## Mar55 (Sep 26, 2017)

vasto lordes said:


> without 8.5 biju chakra
> rinnagan sasuke was = to 1 eye jjmadara(without god tree)


You mean with the Shinjū, as he had already absorbed it prior to Sasuke's arrival.


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## genii96 (Sep 26, 2017)

Let's be honest, JJ madara was hit with a massive dose of PIS....one eyed madara still had the power to call forth the juubi or use his  susanoo,yet he just used elemental ninjutsu and one limbo clone


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## The Great One (Sep 26, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Madara =/= Momoshiki goddammit
> 
> Madara in a weaker version tanked an attack that shits on the attack that wrecked momoshiki, so stop using momo to gauge madara's dura because one in a much weaker version tanked an attack stronger than what the other did in his strongest form against a weaker attack.
> 
> ...


Madara did not tanked it he got cut in half and only thing puts him above Momo is his regen & immorality without it Rinnegan Sasuke can solo him.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Blu-ray (Sep 27, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Madara did not tanked it he got cut in half


Pretty sure he's talking about the Lava Rasenshuriken which only left a gash on Madara's belly, a superior technique to the Rasengan that killed Momoshiki. Seeing as the Lava Rasenshuriken was powered by Naruto in RSM while the Rasengan was powered by Naruto in base, the difference between them is all the more massive.

Reactions: Like 2


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## jonnty6 (Sep 27, 2017)

How do we know whether or not Naruto poured EVERYTHING(Or at least close to it) into that rasengan though?? He said it himself that he could barely stand after the fight which is odd for a stamina freak like him to say. Also hasn't he shown to be able to use RSM chakra in base kinda like how Luffy uses Gear 2nd on certain body parts and such?


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## uchihakil (Sep 27, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> Pretty sure he's talking about the Lava Rasenshuriken which only left a gash on Madara's belly, a superior technique to the Rasengan that killed Momoshiki. Seeing as the Lava Rasenshuriken was powered by Naruto in RSM while the Rasengan was powered by Naruto in base, the difference between them is all the more massive.




Yup this ^^^


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## The Great One (Sep 27, 2017)

Blu-ray said:


> Pretty sure he's talking about the Lava Rasenshuriken which only left a gash on Madara's belly, a superior technique to the Rasengan that killed Momoshiki. Seeing as the Lava Rasenshuriken was powered by Naruto in RSM while the Rasengan was powered by Naruto in base, the difference between them is all the more massive.


No I'm talking about when Sasuke cut him in half & feat wise that Rasengan is far more powerful then lava FRS.

And my point still stands Madara was only threat because of his regen & immortality with out it he is far laser threat.


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## Jikaishin (Sep 27, 2017)

Naruto pressuring Kaguya? ... when did that happen? All I had see was Naruto fleeing and sometime connecting hits which only hinder her for a few second at most 

On topic Madara wins


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## vasto lordes (Sep 27, 2017)

Jikaishin said:


> *Naruto pressuring Kaguya?* ... *when did that happen?* All I had see was Naruto fleeing and sometime connecting hits which only hinder her for a few second at most
> 
> On topic Madara wins


the moment he usedBoil Release: Unrivalled Strength + thousands clones


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## uchihakil (Sep 28, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> So you are telling me that chidori sword is stronger then lava FRS now?
> 
> So did he controlled his durability enough so Sasuke can cut him in half or he let Sasuke cut him?
> 
> But its does not discard the fect that Madara has been hurted by laser attacks.



Yes naruto also got pierced by a none lightning enhanced blade, and kinshiki's horn was also cut off by sasuke's none lightning enhanced blade, naruto characters bare typically weak against attacks like that

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Great One (Sep 28, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Yes naruto also got pierced by a none lightning enhanced blade, and kinshiki's horn was also cut off by sasuke's none lightning enhanced blade, naruto characters bare typically weak against attacks like that


And Naruto tanked chidori & moon cutting laser & KCM naruto also blocked multiple sword on his arm.

Sword piercing him was simply shit writing.


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## uchihakil (Sep 28, 2017)

Batzzaro29 said:


> And Naruto tanked chidori & moon cutting laser & KCM naruto also blocked multiple sword on his arm.
> 
> Sword piercing him was simply shit writing.



Madara also tanked YRS so you can say that for madara too, unless you're using double standards


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## The Great One (Sep 28, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Madara also tanked YRS so you can say that for madara too, unless you're using double standards


And that was bull, Gai's attack smashed while being far more weaker then yrs.


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## savior2005 (Jun 24, 2018)

Was gonna make this battle but saw this thread. Seems like both individuals were favored.


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## Ayala (Jun 24, 2018)

And @Cosmos said NBD never had good days. This thread is pure 100 carat gold


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## Android (Jun 24, 2018)

Why did you revived this thread @savior2005 ?


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## Troyse22 (Jun 24, 2018)

Limbo said:


> And @Cosmos said NBD never had good days. This thread is pure 100 carat gold



Well I'd hardly call this old, hasn't even been a year.

BTW @Cosmos ...Mads>Naruto

Edit: NVM thought u said good old days lol.

Yeah this was a pretty good thread. Definitely and one of the most controversial


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## Android (Jun 24, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Yeah this was a pretty good thread. Definitely and one of the most controversial


I can't lie, I'm really liking your Kisame Vs Katsuyu thread.


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## savior2005 (Jun 24, 2018)

Cosmos said:


> Why did you revived this thread @savior2005 ?


cuz there are some new members, and I wanted their take on this. Idk who would win this battle, originally I'd favor jj Madara, but I saw some good arguments for Adult Naruto too

Reactions: Like 1


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