# Nagato and ?ms madara vs Hashirama and Itachi



## rubberguy (Apr 29, 2013)

No kyuubi but gedo is available and nagato is healthy.
Scenerio 2
madara get kyuubi nagato lose gedo. Is it fair now?


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## Shattering (Apr 29, 2013)

Full Kurama >>> Nagato
Hashirama > Madara + Full Kurama

Hashirama > Madara + Nagato
Hashirama + Itachi >>> Madara + Nagato

 I can't imagine how would the battle develop, but logic is clear and by feats Hashirama is the strongest of the 4 and Itachi is the smartest so they should be able to win


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## BurningVegeta (Apr 29, 2013)

I don't understand how this would be any different to what happened when they fought each other separately? If Madara isn't careful he will be become sealed inside the Sword of Totsuka along with Nagato. I'm going to assume Harashima can hold off both Madara and Nagato while Itachi waits for an opening to seal them both.


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## Rocky (Apr 29, 2013)

Hashirama soloes.

Once he's pushed to Sage Mode, Shinsuuseju smacks Nagato off the map and then we've seen what happens to Madara.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 29, 2013)

So, Hashirama kills Nagato, and then beats EMS Madara like in canon.  

Itachi makes his crow clones prepare a celebration for Hashirama because the databook says they're great for throwing


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## blk (Apr 29, 2013)

How can you people assert with such certainty who the victor will be, in a battle with absolutely no stipulations? 

This is simply ludicrous.




Rocky said:


> Hashirama soloes.
> 
> Once he's pushed to Sage Mode, Shinsuuseju smacks Nagato off the map and then we've seen what happens to Madara.





The Pirate on Wheels said:


> So, Hashirama kills Nagato, and then beats EMS Madara like in canon.
> 
> Itachi makes his crow clones prepare a celebration for Hashirama because the databook says they're great for throwing



Yeah, because the OP said that this battle has exactly the same circumstances of the fight that they had in VoTE.

Also, let's ignore/pretend that it's irrelevant, the presence of Nagato and the Gedo.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 29, 2013)

neither nagato or itachi are factors. they get killed in the crossfire between hashirama and madara. hashiramas team wins.


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## Rocky (Apr 29, 2013)

blk said:


> How can you people assert with such certainty who the victor will be, in a battle with absolutely no stipulations?
> 
> This is simply ludicrous.




Under anything except stipulations geared highly towards Madara's team, Hashirama & Itachi will slaughter.





> Yeah, because the OP said that this battle has exactly the same circumstances of the fight that they had in VoTE.
> 
> Also, let's ignore/pretend that it's irrelevant, the presence of Nagato and the Gedo.



Nagato & the Gedo are irrelevant in the face of Sennin Hashirama. 

Don't you be bad too.


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## blk (Apr 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Under anything except stipulations geared highly towards Madara's team, Hashirama & Itachi will slaughter.



And how did you came to this conclusion? The difference in power between the two teams is negligible.




> Nagato & the Gedo are irrelevant in the face of Sennin Hashirama.
> 
> Don't you be bad too.



The Gedo can cause massive destruction with its fire explosion [1] (and fire is very effective against wood) and lighting [2], while can potentially end the match with its soul dragons.

With CST and CT, Nagato can easily send away all the Mokuton.


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## Sans (Apr 29, 2013)

The power between the two teams is negligible?


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## Rocky (Apr 29, 2013)

blk said:


> And how did you came to this conclusion? The difference in power between the two teams is negligible.




Nagato doesn't make up for the loss of the Kyuubi. The difference is not negligible. 




> The Gedo can cause massive destruction with its fire explosion [1] (and fire is very effective against wood) and lighting [2], while can potentially end the match with its soul dragons.
> 
> With CST and CT, Nagato can easily send away all the Mokuton.



That fire explosion is pathetic compared to what Hashirama can casually deal with in Base. In Sage Mode, Shinsuusenju grabs Nagato's Chibaku Tensei out of the sky and slams it back down on top of him. Then he plays a little game of golf with the Kyuubi-less Susano'o and empty Gedo Mazo. Chibaku Tensei (Nagato) should make a nice ball.

This is getting ridiculous. Nagato is no match for Hashirama, that's been made clear.


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## blk (Apr 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Nagato doesn't make up for the loss of the Kyuubi. The difference is not negligible.



Perfect Susano'o alone can replicate what Kyuubi Susano'o did.

Also, Nagato isn't simply a firepower source; for example, Preta Path is a huge factor.




> That fire explosion is pathetic compared to what Hashirama can casually deal with in Base. In Sage Mode, Shinsuusenju grabs Nagato's Chibaku Tensei out of the sky and slams it back down on top of him. Then he plays a little game of golf with the Kyuubi-less Susano'o and empty Gedo Mazo. Chibaku Tensei (Nagato) should make a nice ball.
> 
> This is getting ridiculous. Nagato is no match for Hashirama, that's been made clear.



What about the lighting, can Hashirama even avoid it? And the soul dragons?

What you say about CT is true if:

- We assume that Hashirama has knowledge about it;

- We assume that Nagato will necessarily use it while Shinsuusenju is being used;

- We assume that Madara and/or the Gedo won't interfere with Hashirama.

Further, this just assuming that the fight will even come to that point and not end far before (impossible to tell without knowing the stipulations).

And you didn't addressed CST.

EDIT:

Now that i think about it, even granting all those assumptions regarding CT, Shinsuusenju is not grabbing and throwing it.
The wood construct can't bypass such a powerful gravitational attraction.



Komnenos said:


> The power between the two teams is negligible?



Elaborate.


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## Rocky (Apr 29, 2013)

Yeah you're right man, perfect Susano'o can use Bijuudama continuously just use the Susano'o-Kyuubi fusion did. 

And yeah, KN8 overcame Chibaku Tensei, but Hashirama's Sage statue lacks the strength.


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## blk (Apr 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yeah you're right man, perfect Susano'o can use Bijuudama continuously just use the Susano'o-Kyuubi fusion did.
> 
> And yeah, KN8 overcame Chibaku Tensei, but Hashirama's Sage statue lacks the strength.



Just because Madara countered the statue with those Bijuudama, it doesn't mean that it's the only way possible.

KN8 was able to break part of the rock layer, but it was still attached to the CT.
Further, Deva could have increased its size (and we know that Nagato himself is more powerful than his paths).

I'm not sure how you can compare the act of grabbing the core and throwing it, to what KN8 did.
Also, Hashirama is not the statue, he will die if CT succesfully traps him.

There are still several points that you have not addressed.


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## Sans (Apr 29, 2013)

blk said:


> Elaborate.



One team has Hashirama and the other does not.


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## blk (Apr 29, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> One team has Hashirama and the other does not.



And the other team has Madara, who is Hashirama's equal.

Further, i would like if someone can address the points that i made in the previous posts.


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## Sans (Apr 29, 2013)

blk said:


> And the other team has Madara, who is Hashirama's equal.
> 
> Further, i would like if someone can address the points that i made in the previous posts.



That's an interesting definition of equal you have.


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## blk (Apr 29, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> That's an interesting definition of equal you have.



Well, they are not literally equals, but i think that you got what i meant.
With just slight different circumstances, their final battle could have had a completely different outcome.

But then again, my argument doesn't revolve only around this point.


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## Grimm6Jack (Apr 29, 2013)

Shattering said:


> Full Kurama >>> Nagato



Lolololololololololol.

All Kurama has is overwhelming power... He doesn't have anything sort of hax like Nagato does. Not to mention that Kurama wasn't willingly fighting with Madara, he was being controlled, once Hashirama removed the contract seal Kurama literally stopped fighting with Madara. Nagato doesn't suffer from such a predicament.

Nagato has pretty much 2 great counters against Hashirama's Mokutons, Shinra Tensei or the best one, Preta Path. Nagato is a much better teammate for Madara than Kurama.

The one who is hardly a factor here is Itachi. EMS Madara or Nagato can easily stall against Hashirama until Itachi is defeated by either of them. 
Hashirama *OBVIOUSLY* loses against EMS Madara and Nagato. Mokuton is outclassed against the Rinnegan alone, in terms of abilities of course, let alone Rinnegan + perfected EMS in a team.

I see team Madara with the best odds of winning this. Nagato's abilities, Rinnegan abilities, are too much of a factor to consider.

Madara and Nagato 8/10 with mid/high-difficulty.

BTW this is healthy Nagato right?


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## Joakim3 (Apr 29, 2013)

Yeah...... Hashirama solos by himself, it's quite evident he is in a completely different league than any other character bar Rikudo & Datara

Madara & Nagato can definitely force Hashi into SM via any combo of PS, Gedo Mazo, CST or CT... the problem is once he is in SM, neither Nagato nor Madara have the firepower to stop Hashi's gigazord from erasing both from existence. Give them Kurama and the fight becomes vastly more fair imho





Meanwhile..... The King in this fight would either 

1) run away after feeling the killer intent of Hashi & Madara.

2) Die in the cross fire of Hashirama vs. Madara & Nagato map redrawing skills via systematic nuking

3) Sit next to Hashi and provide zero support, as virtually 99% of his attacks are fodder level against two rinnegan users


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## LostSelf (Apr 29, 2013)

Can Nagato beat Itachi before Madara succumbs to Hashirama's might?

Thinking it better, even if it was HAshirama vs Madara and Nagato he would end up winning...


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## Kai (Apr 29, 2013)

Madara has been behind Hashirama his entire life, and even when he obtained the full power of the _Kyuubi_ and thought it was his final ticket to surpassing him he still summed up short.

Hashirama absolutely destroys EMS Madara without Kurama with medium difficulty.

With Nagato there, they may pressure him into Sage Mode, by which point all of Hashirama's ninjutsu become instant finishers.


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## Rocky (Apr 29, 2013)

ITT: Hashirama is Madara's equal. There are multiple chapters out explaining why that is wrong. Madara could not defeat Hashirama, no matter what he tried. He even went and took control of the Nine-Tailed Fox, then he brought it to their battle and still lost. 

And I'm not going to explain why Chibaku Tensed and CST aren't going to accomplish anything against Shinsuusenju.


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## richard lewis (Apr 29, 2013)

blk said:


> And the other team has Madara, who is Hashirama's equal.
> 
> Further, i would like if someone can address the points that i made in the previous posts.



Not really, hashirama solo'd madara and the 9 tails at the same time. So how is madara w/o the 9 tails equal when he couldn't even win with the 9 tails?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

Nagato and Madara. Nagato force the other time into CQC as the Preta Path will nullify any Ninjutsu. From there Madara and Nagato can take it.

Also alongside Nagato, Madara is still capable of deadly combos like merging Perfect Susanoo with Gedo Mazo akin to how he merged it with Kurama.


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## Bonly (Apr 29, 2013)

Nagato or Madara can beat Itachi. Hashi can beat Madara or Nagato. Depending on who faces who and who finishes up first, Nagato and Madara could take on Hashi(but likely lose) or Hashi and Itachi can take on either Nagato or Madara in a 1V2. Team Itachi should win, the difficulty should change depending on how the match go but the end result would likely be the same.


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## blk (Apr 29, 2013)

Kai said:


> Madara has been behind Hashirama his entire life, and even when he obtained the full power of the _Kyuubi_ and thought it was his final ticket to surpassing him he still summed up short.
> 
> Hashirama absolutely destroys EMS Madara without Kurama with medium difficulty.
> 
> With Nagato there, they may pressure him into Sage Mode, by which point all of Hashirama's ninjutsu become instant finishers.





richard lewis said:


> Not really, hashirama solo'd madara and the 9 tails at the same time. So how is madara w/o the 9 tails equal when he couldn't even win with the 9 tails?





Rocky said:


> ITT: Hashirama is Madara's equal. There are multiple chapters out explaining why that is wrong. Madara could not defeat Hashirama, no matter what he tried. He even went and took control of the Nine-Tailed Fox, then he brought it to their battle and still lost.



What Madara did with the Kyuubi, can be replicated without it.
By both features and portrayal, the difference between them is slight.



> And I'm not going to explain why Chibaku Tensed and CST aren't going to accomplish anything against Shinsuusenju.



Why not?

Moreover, your points about CT were refuted already, and you never addressed CST, nor the lighting, nor the soul dragons, nor every other flaws of your arguments that i pointed out.




rubberguy said:


> Scenerio2 added



The only thing that you have to add are the stipulations: knowledge, mindset, location, starting distance and every other particularity that you may want to add.


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## Kai (Apr 29, 2013)

blk said:


> What Madara did with the Kyuubi, can be replicated without it.
> By both features and portrayal, the difference between them is slight.


Without the Kyuubi, Madara is the same man Hashirama has always defeated.

Madara states he is not the same man as before when he fights at VOTE.

*"Madara... you can't win against me."*


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

I don't quite get how the team Hashirama counter CT with what we know.

Hashirama's offensive jutsu are made from the very same raw materials that CT uses and Itachi's attacks were not powerful enough to do anything to CT alone... So CT is still a very big threat. 

There is also the common issue that follows with every Rinnegan thread, that is the Preta Path.


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## Rocky (Apr 29, 2013)

blk said:


> What Madara did with the Kyuubi, can be replicated without it.
> By both features and portrayal, the difference between them is slight.




Bad. 

Shinsuusenju was hit with a stream of Bijuudama-Sword objects of death, and it still plowed through Perfect Susano'o & restrained Kurama so Shodai could subdue it. Perfect Susano'o alone cannot do the same kind of damage, because it can't use Bijuudama. Yay common sense.






> Moreover, your points about CT were refuted already, and you never addressed CST, nor the lighting, nor the soul dragons, nor every other flaws of your arguments that i pointed out.




Refuting my argument of Hashirama playing golf with his opponents trump cards was a waste of time. It was obvious Hyperbole. Still, once that orb goes up in the air, the statue barrage punches it out.


Lighting can be blocked or healed off, CST can be blocked or Shinsuusenju can run through it and body slam Nagato, and the soul dragons can be dodged with the body flicker.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I
> Hashirama's offensive jutsu are made from the very same raw materials that CT uses and Itachi's attacks were not powerful enough to do anything to CT alone... So CT is still a very big threat.





Are you implying the gravitation force of Chibaku Tensei is powerful enough to deconstruct Hashirama's Buddha.


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## Dr. White (Apr 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Are you implying the gravitation force of Chibaku Tensei is powerful enough to deconstruct Hashirama's Buddha.


Lol sitting down the Buddha Statue easily dwarfs nearby mountains, standing up the trees are pretty much grass to it 

That thing plays soccer with CT, especially since it is presumably Sage powered.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Are you implying the gravitation force of Chibaku Tensei is powerful enough to deconstruct Hashirama's Buddha.



I don't see why it shouldn't be. I am more than sure Hashirama will have a jutsu which has the properties required to counter CT. However at this present moment, he's not got that.


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## Rocky (Apr 29, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't see why it shouldn't be. I am more than sure Hashirama will have a jutsu which has the properties required to counter CT. However at this present moment, he's not got that.







......

It took Multiple Bijuudama point blank and remained mostly intact. Chibaku Tensei is not tearing it apart.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> ......
> 
> It took Multiple Bijuudama point blank and remained mostly intact. Chibaku Tensei is not tearing it apart.



Bijuu-Dama doesn't break apart its surroundings to make a mini planet. Two different jutsu; two different mechanisms. 

Not even Susanoo was safe from CT's pull, however it wasn't torn apart because it wasn't made from the materials CT assimilates. Hint: CT was also taking in trees alongside the land when it was used against KN6. 

However your entire point hinges on "it tanked XYZ therefore nothing's getting past it". A very flawed stance because there is no "getting through this shiz" going on here. Rather it is that Hashirama's giant wooden statue would suffer the same fate as all the other raw materials. 

In other words you've only told me why that statue can tank a lot of direct hits, not why it wouldn't break apart like other raw materials.


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## blk (Apr 29, 2013)

Kai said:


> Without the Kyuubi, Madara is the same man Hashirama has always defeated.
> 
> Madara states he is not the same man as before when he fights at VOTE.
> 
> *"Madara... you can't win against me."*



That was MS Madara.
Also, no, Hashirama never defeated Madara aside from VoTE and another instance (otherwise he would be dead): most of the times both of them couldn't conclusively beat the other, and when that happened the battle was very close.

If it took 24 straight hours for Hashirama to defeat EMS Madara (and, arguably, with help), he isn't certainly that much stronger than him.



Rocky said:


> Bad.
> 
> Shinsuusenju was hit with a stream of Bijuudama-Sword objects of death, and it still plowed through Perfect Susano'o & restrained Kurama so Shodai could subdue it. Perfect Susano'o alone cannot do the same kind of damage, because it can't use Bijuudama. Yay common sense.



1) Perfect Susano'o in its samurai (or whatever it is) form is significantly bigger than Kyuubi Susano'o [1 ; 2].

2) Perfect Susano'o without Kyuubi can still throw its swords with the same force that make it able to cause mountain busting shockwaves through the swings of them.
Infact, the act of simply throwing, reform and then throw again, the swords is faster than making a Bijuudama, impale it with the sword and then throw it, so he should even be able to throw more of them.
The overall power will probably be less because of the lack of Bijuudamas, but the damage will still be huge.




> Refuting my argument of Hashirama playing golf with his opponents trump cards was a waste of time. It was obvious Hyperbole. Still, once that orb goes up in the air, the statue barrage punches it out.
> 
> Lighting can be blocked or healed off, CST can be blocked or Shinsuusenju can run through it and body slam Nagato, and the soul dragons can be dodged with the body flicker.



CT will be fastly covered by tons of rocks, without the assumption of knowledge Hashirama won't instantly punch it.
Also, this is, again, assuming that Hashirama will have the statue out when Nagato will use CT.
And what if Madara and the Gedo interrupts Hashirama from destroying it?

That lighting can be blocked easily is not a sure, since it's not exactly a slow attack.
CST is an invisible and completely undetectable force, how can Hashirama block it? Moreover, a similar gravitional push can't be countered as simply as you suggest by the statue; and even if it could, Hashirama is not the statue and will be hit by the force.

If you assume knowledge, then yes, they may be able to avoid the soul dragons, though that's not enough: just avoiding them won't resolve the problem.

Lastly, there is still to consider that with the right stipulations, the battle will end before any of these powers come into play.


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## Rocky (Apr 29, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Bijuu-Dama doesn't break apart its surroundings to make a mini planet. Two different jutsu; two different mechanisms.
> 
> Not even Susanoo was safe from CT's pull, however it wasn't torn apart because it wasn't made from the materials CT assimilates. Hint: CT was also taking in trees alongside the land when it was used against KN6.
> 
> ...




What are you even taking about. 


CT isn't a teenage girl in the summer. It doesn't give a damn about what it "eats". CT is an orb that has a very strong gravitational pull. That's it. There aren't any specific materials Chibaku Tensei must consume. It doesn't magically deconstruct "raw materials" and absorb them. It's gravity based, surprise surprise, like all of Tendo's other techniques.

The Core is basically a powerful version of Bansho Tenin, a Justu that can also _rip_ up parts of the earth. 

Chibaku Tensei doesn't share the properties of Jinton. It doesn't bypass durability with some magical force. It's just strong gravity. Though not strong enough to rip apart Shinsuusenju. That's just ludicrous.



And blk, no. 

We don't know if Susano'o can throw its swords at the same velocity in which it travels when used simultaneously with Bijuudama. We also don't know if the sword alone is enough to even hurt the statue. A Bijuudama is far more powerful than Madara's slashes. Wiping a mountain of the terrain > cutting it in half.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What are you even taking about.
> 
> 
> CT isn't a teenage girl in the summer. It doesn't give a damn about what it "eats". CT is an orb that has a very strong gravitational pull. That's it. There aren't any specific materials Chibaku Tensei must consume. It doesn't magically deconstruct "raw materials" and absorb them. It's gravity based, surprise surprise, like all of Tendo's other techniques.



Except when we saw it twice it did just that: took all those raw pieces of earth and absorbed it. I just called those pieces raw materials. That Mokuton statue is literally a wooden statue, made from one of the materials (wood) that CT assimilates.



> The Core is basically a powerful version of Bansho Tenin, a Justu that can also _rip_ up parts of the earth.
> 
> Chibaku Tensei doesn't share the properties of Jinton. It doesn't bypass durability with some magical force. It's just strong gravity. Though not strong enough to rip apart Shinsuusenju. That's just ludicrous.



Based on what? You're only generalising Shinsuusenju's durability to a totally different situation: breaking apart like every other piece of wood/land around. Sure if CT was like Bijuu-Dama and being shot machine gun style at Shinsuusenju, your point would have some substance. 

However you've still yet to tell me why the wooden Shinsuusenju won't break apart like all other wood when CT starts doing its thing. 
All I'm getting from your argument regarding Shinsuusenju is that it tanked Bijuu-Dama therefore it impervious to all forms of offence. 

That however doesn't translate to "it isn't wood, it is like Susanoo, therefore it will not break apart". 
Shinsuusenju is still made from the same stuff that parts of "the earth" are made up of. 

Alas, for Hashirama, CT is all but one counter. There is the infamous Preta Path too.


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## Rocky (Apr 29, 2013)

It's much harder to rip apart that statue than it is to rip a piece of rock up from the ground.


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## blk (Apr 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> And blk, no.
> 
> We don't know if Susano'o can throw its swords at the same velocity in which it travels when used simultaneously with Bijuudama. We also don't know if the sword alone is enough to even hurt the statue. A Bijuudama is far more powerful than Madara's slashes. Wiping a mountain of the terrain > cutting it in half.



Susano'o has the strength for cause _mountain busting shockwaves_, this is enough for assert that the swords will have a ridiculously high velocity, and therefore able to cut through the statue.
Also, remember that the swords of samurai Perfect Susano'o are far bigger.

And what about the rest?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It's much harder to rip apart that statue than it is to rip a piece of rock up from the ground.



What's going to happen to its many arms when a knowledge-less Hashirama tries to spam-punch Madara and Nagato whilst CT is up? 
Though you're only saying it is 'harder' (not impossible to break it apart), meaning you're already presupposing how much chakra, therefore how much force, CT will have. 

Further, looking at your argument with blk and I, you're making a lot of assertions about this statue capabilities. That is fine, however, it would help your point further if you can actually state how tanking the Bijuu-Dama (though it seemed enough attacks could take off its many arms) translates to tanking what blk is suggesting and how it also translates to being impossible to break apart by CT's influence.


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## Rocky (Apr 29, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What's going to happen to its many arms when a knowledge-less Hashirama tries to spam-punch Madara and Nagato whilst CT is up?



Since Hashirama isn't blind, he'll grab the orb out of the sky when it being to collect debris, and proceed to play a small game of bowling.


And technically, revenge negging isn't allowed, sweetums.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Since Hashirama isn't blind, he'll grab the orb out of the sky when it being to collect debris, and proceed to play a small game of bowling.



That might work if the wood wouldn't break apart. I still say this because you have still not yet supported the idea that it wouldn't break apart with CT's influence.


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## Dr. White (Apr 29, 2013)

Give Madara the Rinnengan and Kyuubi and it will be a match


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## blk (Apr 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It's time to stop being bad now.



You still haven't addressed in a convincing way many crucial points.

But either way, i agree.

In a match without stipulations you can't determine a winner with certainty, no matter how much you try to argue.
The Hashirama wank has to stop.


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## Sans (Apr 29, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That might work if the wood wouldn't break apart. I still say this because you have still not yet supported the idea that it wouldn't break apart with CT's influence.



Because it's an attack omg.

Itachi's Magatama were used against it, and that's a physical jutsu as well.

Kishi thought as far as "use attacks against the orb to defeat Chibaku Tensei."

Stop being terrible when it comes to Nagato vs Hashirama.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Because it's an attack omg.
> 
> Itachi's Magatama were used against it, and that's a physical jutsu as well.
> 
> ...



Look at all the jutsu used in the fight you referenced: Bijuu-Dama, Magatama and FRS. All made from compressed chakra, however the statue is not made of that. It is made from wood, and we've seen the jutsu (CT) use wood to create itself.

Sure it could be debatable, however I've not seen a concrete reason _not_ to believe that the wooden statue would suffer the same fate as the rest of the pieces of earth.


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## Sans (Apr 29, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Look at all the jutsu used in the fight you referenced: Bijuu-Dama, Magatama and FRS. All made from compressed chakra, however the statue is not made of that. It is made from wood, and we've seen the jutsu (CT) use wood to create itself.
> 
> Sure it could be debatable, however I've not seen a concrete reason _not_ to believe that the wooden statue would suffer the same fate as the rest of the pieces of earth.



No, it's not debatable.

You're trying to intellectualise Hashirama's power, when Kishimoto made it as clear as he possibly could that the man was above everyone else. And you're doing it wrong, because you have him losing to Nagato.

Like, I don't even know what to say. Can you actually think that if the fight happened in the manga, all this shit would happen? Hashirama's strongest technique would casually break up to the mere orb of Chibaku Tensei, as all his Mokuton is rendered instantly useless by Preta. Is that truly what you think Kishimoto would write?

I won't even debate this on a feats level, because you're just going about it the worst possible way.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 29, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> No, it's not debatable.
> 
> You're trying to intellectualise Hashirama's power, when Kishimoto made it as clear as he possibly could that the man was above everyone else. And you're doing it wrong, because you have him losing to Nagato.
> 
> ...



That's nice but try to keep it relevant. Do you or do you not have anything to suggest that Mokuton could take out CT or the Preta Path?

Don't even bother using portrayal against the Rinnegan. I say that because Kishimoto has in fact portrayed the Rinnegan to be one of the highest powers in the manga, next to (or inferior to only) the Juubi. 
Hashirama's just got some extra attention, but that shouldn't be mistaken for portrayal on putting him above all else. One key highlighter should be the fact Madara only went for Hashirama's power with hopes of obtaining the Rinnegan. 

On top of that Mokuton is but a Kekkei Genkai element which mixes two elements; the Rinnegan has been shown to shut down a fusion of three elements. An element (Jinton) which is capable of shutting down Mokuton. It just happens that Nagato's main guns are all Rinnegan. 

See, portrayal doesn't only favour Hashirama as well as you thought. Though if Hashirama is destined to have one over the Rinnegan, the Rikudou's Rinnegan, then it is a matter if playing patience. After all he's got a Rinnegan user eagerly waiting for him. Of course till then we've only got to work with what we have. 

With what we have, I've not at all seen a convincing argument that Hashirama's Mokuton would overcome CT or the Preta Path. As for his strongest shown Mokuton, I've yet to see a convincing argument that says it wouldn't break apart. 
It is fine to use a portrayal argument, however it tends to fail when you try to use it to compensate for feats that aren't there to back it... Of course in Hashirama's case you could simply just wait.


----------



## ImSerious (Apr 29, 2013)

Itachi can sit down and have a cup of tea while Hashi solos this. Team Madara really stands no chance.


----------



## Sans (Apr 29, 2013)

ImSerious, that's probably safer than risking the crossfire between Hashirama and Madara.

-snip-

We need Winchester back, who would actually close the batshit insane threads.


----------



## blk (Apr 29, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> **



What's your problem?

Everyone just jumped here saying that Hashirama will solo, and yet no one formulated an argument not filled with assumptions and flaws; i call this wank.


----------



## Sans (Apr 29, 2013)

blk said:


> What's your problem?
> 
> Everyone just jumped here saying that Hashirama will solo, and yet no one formulated an argument not filled with assumptions and flaws; i call this wank.



Make a Minato vs Asuma and Part I Naruto thread.

You'll get the same results.


----------



## ueharakk (Apr 29, 2013)

unless nagato has some way of replicating the power of 11 rapidfire bijuudamas, EMS Madara and nagato don't have the ability or firepower to defeat Shinsuusenjuu.

against CT, shinsuusenjuu won't break apart as the wood is extremely durable.  by right a single standard bijuudama would produce a blast radius that would encompass shinsuu senjuu, yet it took 11 of those guys to destroy just its back portion.


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## αce (Apr 29, 2013)

I'm having a hard time believing that Hashirama can beat Madara _and_ Nagato simultaneously. A really damn hard time. EMS Madara and _base_ Hashirama are more or less equal. Hashirama has the slight edge. I say that because with the Kyuubi, Hashirama could only run against Madara or defend until he managed to enter Sage Mode - and still took a considierable amount of damage afterwards from the Kyuubi/Susano-o combination. His buddha and Sage mode were even forced out of the equation by the end of the fight.

Sage Mode Hashirama is superior to both of them individually but combined? I don't know. Someone convince me otherwise. Itachi makes this more sided towards Hashirama's side but the posts in this thread are giving me the idea that people think Hashirama steamrolls this scenario by himself.


----------



## αce (Apr 29, 2013)

Actually nevermind I forgot Sage Mode enhances everything - not just buddha. Yup Hashirama is fucking broken beyond belief and takes this by himself.

Someone ban Hashirama threads from the battledome.


----------



## αce (Apr 29, 2013)

Like really - Flower Tree World turned a desert into a forest. And that was base. Remember Naruto's initial training and what he was able to accomplish after Sage Mode? It was enhanced 100 fold. This is fucking ridiculous. Hashirama is stupid. If I see another goddamn Hashirama thread that doesn't have another Hashirama on the opposing side I'm just gonna neg the op for making a spite thread.


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## Ezekial (Apr 29, 2013)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA this thread.

A healthy Nagato would absolutely wreck Itachi all over, and please for the love of god don't use Edo Itachi sealing Nagato as "proof" he wouldn't also, Madara is capable of fight on par with Hashirama without Kurama as evidenced by the recent flashback.

Once Nagato easily solo's Itachi, and Madara is fighting with Hashi, Nagato will join the fray, Hashi would get stomped, against a Rinnegan user with Gedou and Madara, not to mention all of the summons and absorbing Mokuton...

Madara and Nagato win mid diff.



ueharakk said:


> unless nagato has some way of replicating the power of 11 rapidfire bijuudamas,* EMS Madara and nagato don't have the ability or firepower to defeat Shinsuusenjuu.*
> 
> *against CT, shinsuusenjuu won't break apart as the wood is extremely durable*.  by right a single standard bijuudama would produce a blast radius that would encompass shinsuu senjuu, yet it took 11 of those guys to destroy just its back portion.


-snip- Shinra Tensei destroyed Konoha, A weak Nagato's ST trapped an 8tailed Kurama, a healthy Nagato would be overkill.


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## αce (Apr 29, 2013)

I almost laughed. _But then I cried instead_. Hashirama's Mokuton is _alive_. He _literally_ creates life. It's what makes him so unique. It's why his Mokuton reacted to the life force of Naruto's chakra cloak. It's the same ability the Rikudou himself sported, only on a much lesser scale. If Nagato could absorb living things he would be God and this thread would be comical.

And no Madara can't fight on par with Hashirama without the Kyuubi, unless Hashirama is in base. Otherwise he gets backhanded to Timbuktu.


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## Ezekial (Apr 29, 2013)

αce said:


> I almost laughed. _But then I cried instead_. Hashirama's Mokuton is _alive_. He _literally_ creates life. It's what makes him so unique. It's why his Mokuton reacted to the life force of Naruto's chakra cloak. It's the same ability the Rikudou himself sported, only on a much lesser scale. If Nagato could absorb living things he would be God and this thread would be comical.


Cool fan fic bro



αce said:


> And no Madara can't fight on par with Hashirama without the Kyuubi, unless Hashirama is in base. Otherwise he gets backhanded to Timbuktu.


Maybe you should re read the flashbacks where it took Hashi and crew 24hrs to defeat Madara. Or the part when after Kurama was released Madara was still fighting for some time after it.


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## blk (Apr 29, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Make a Minato vs Asuma and Part I Naruto thread.
> 
> You'll get the same results.



Stipulations: Minato is sleeping, Asuma and Naruto are bloodlusted and the starting distance is 1 meter.

Does Minato win?

Now, aside from our extreme analogies, the point is: the circumstances can't be overlooked.

There is no way to tell who will be the winner without knowing the conditions of battle, even more if the difference in power between the combatants is not extreme.


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## αce (Apr 29, 2013)

> Cool fan fic bro



You're either ignoring what I said or have no response. Hashirama's Mokuton is alive. Nagato can't absorb living things.



> Maybe you should re read the flashbacks where it took Hashi and crew 24hrs to defeat Madara. Or the part when after Kurama was released Madara was still fighting for some time after it.



Maybe you should read the part of the fight where Madara couldn't touch Hashirama in base despite the fact that he had the Kyuubi. The moment he entered Sage Mode the fight was over.

You really think Hashirama was _trying to kill_ Madara in those 24 hours after almost killing _himself_ to preserve _Madara's_ life afterwards? If you honestly think that your reading ability is worse than the chair I'm on.

Of course Madara can fight the rest of the Senju clan on his own. They are Hashirama lackeys. Hashirama clearly wasn't trying to kill Madara or his actions afterwards would have been completely idiotic.


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## αce (Apr 29, 2013)

Does anyone really think Hashirama spawns_ dead trees_? If you do, speak up now so I can ignore you. Dead plants don't pollinate.


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## Sans (Apr 29, 2013)

And the stipulations don't have Hashirama asleep.

Circumstances can be ignored, unless you want to start any fight with a character asleep and the other holding a sword to their.

Would you say that _typical_ battle conditions would factor into Part I Sasuke vs Itachi? That if only we rejigged the scenario a little bit, Sasuke could have won.

What about the Bell Test, Kakashi told them to come at him with intent to kill. I guess he's fortunate that the stipulations weren't unbalanced, or that could have gone badly. 

When there's certain difference in power the stipulations don't matter, both in the manga and the BD. 

Hashirama could overshadow Perfect Kyuubi Susano'o, and a stream of Bijuudama's combined with Perfect Swords could not subdue him. Madara and Nagato can't replicate that, and everything from Madara's Mokuton is getting ridiculously scaled up. 

Like, I don't even know what to say. There's just this tiny minority that keeps comparing Hashirama to other people we've seen. The derision comes from how silly it is, because it's clear that Kishi put first Hokage above them all.


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## Baroxio (Apr 29, 2013)

Hashirama's chakra is the life force for the trees, and it is what grows and controls them. 


*Spoiler*: __ 







			
				The Databook said:
			
		

> Mokuton Jutsu (Ranking: -- ) pg 279
> User: Shodai
> 
> Masses of wood that tear up through the ground!! Once caught, there is no escape.
> ...






Preta may stop the growth or movement of a Mokuton ability, but it won't absorb the Mokuton in the slightest. It also won't stop the momentum of a thousand Giant Mokuton fists.

That said, Hashirama steamrolls. Adding OHKO King Itachi to his team only makes this even more onesided. Sure Madara and Nagato can deal with most of Itachi's techniques in a one-on-one, but can they do so while handling Hashirama's ridiculous Area of Effect?

lolno. Spite thread is spiteful.

Add in the fact that one team has access to clones and the other team does not, and things only get much, much worse for the Rinnengan duo.


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## blk (Apr 29, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> And the stipulations don't have Hashirama asleep.



There are no stipulations, whatever you say is an assumption; yours aren't more justified than the others.



> Circumstances can be ignored, unless you want to start any fight with a character asleep and the other holding a sword to their.



Ok, let's try something else.

Starting distance is 20 meters, mindset is bloodlusted and there is no knowledge.

Tell me what stops Nagato from immediatly throw a CST (an instant, invisible and completely undetectable force) at Hashirama and Itachi's face, sending them into space.



> Would you say that _typical_ battle conditions would factor into Part I Sasuke vs Itachi? That if only we rejigged the scenario a little bit, Sasuke could have won.



I guess not, this doesn't change anything though, mine was an extreme example like yours.



> What about the Bell Test, Kakashi told them to come at him with intent to kill. I guess he's fortunate that the stipulations weren't unbalanced, or that could have gone badly.



Who knows?



> Hashirama could overshadow Perfect Kyuubi Susano'o, and a stream of Bijuudama's combined with Perfect Swords could not subdue him. Madara and Nagato can't replicate that, and everything from Madara's Mokuton is getting ridiculously scaled up.
> 
> Like, I don't even know what to say. There's just this tiny minority that keeps comparing Hashirama to other people we've seen. The derision comes from how silly it is, because it's clear that Kishi put first Hokage above them all.



Hashirama was at his limit against Susano'o Kyuubi, actually.
He and Madara are equals, Perfect Susano'o alone can potentially replicate what the Kyuubi version did by throwing swords without Bijuudamas, with the same strength that renders the construct able to create mountain busting shockwaves just by swinging its swords. Swords thrown with such strength will certainly have the needed speed for cut through Hashirama's statue.

Also, Nagato doesn't add just firepower, and there is also the Gedo to consider.


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## αce (Apr 29, 2013)

Madara is on par with Hashirama _with_ the Kyuubi. Otherwise they aren't comparable. Keep in mind that Hashirama was also reluctant to actually use Sage Mode until he realized there was no other option. If I'm assuming that Hashirama won't be affected by his emotions in this match, the initial use of Sage Mode against EMS Madara would be completely overwhelming.


EMS Madara and base Hashirama are equivalent in strength. EMS Madara with the Kyuubi is equivalent with Sage Mode Hashirama to an extent. Without it, it's not even fair.


----------



## eyeknockout (Apr 29, 2013)

didn't it take 24 hours for hashirama with possibly senju back up to take down EMS madara without kyuubi?

but he still beat EMS madara and kyuubi, while full powered kyuubi >= nagato, so yes even though i think madara and hashirama are near equals, a power only at the level of nagato or full kyuubi  is negligible


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## Kai (Apr 29, 2013)

Even EMS Madara with Kyuubi can be handled by base Hashirama, as Shodai was redirecting the bijuudamas and wrapping them with the Mokuton Dragon.

It's *only* when Madara fused the two entities of Perfect Susano'o + Kyuubi that he forced Hashirama to run away and subsequently enter Sage Mode.

Hashirama's that powerful that he was able to dance with two of the most powerful entities separately in base condition. 

Every single Mokuton that we have ever seen on panel becomes amplified exponentially when Hashirama enters Sage Mode. Let that one simmer in for just a minute. That means Mokuton: Jukai Koutan, Flower Tree World, Mokuton Dragon, Mokuton: Hobi no Jutsu are in fact more powerful than displayed by Madara when used by Hashirama in SM.


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## ueharakk (Apr 29, 2013)

Ezekial said:


> I have never read something so stupid in all my life, Shinra Tensei destroyed Konoha, A weak Nagato's ST trapped an 8tailed Kurama, a healthy Nagato would be overkill.



CST destroyed konoha, yet it failed to even fatally wound tsunade or people surrounded by katsuya which means a bijuudama is a lot more damage dense that CST.

Meanwhile a KN6 bijuudama vaporized a good portion of the city.  It takes 11 bijuudamas that are much bigger and more powerful than a KN6 bijuudama in addition to 11 PS blades in order to just destroy the back of shinsuusenju.

Shinsuusenju picking up 100% Kurama >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8 tailed Kurama with only 50% of its chakra broke out of CT.

And that's only if Hashirama just sits there and does nothing as CT forms instead of fodderizing it with a jet gatling barrage.




eyeknockout said:


> didn't it take 24 hours for hashirama with possibly senju back up to take down EMS madara without kyuubi?



that was a long time before their VoTe fight, and at that time neither were even close to as powerful as their prime selves as Madara had just gotten his EMS and shows us......muscular susanoo while bloodlusted.


----------



## Sans (Apr 29, 2013)

blk said:


> There are no stipulations, whatever you say is an assumption; yours aren't more justified than the others.



Actually, I assume that unless specified, the thread tries to emulate the manga. Because, you know, we're discussing the manga. So, you know, results that actually hold relevance to the manga are better.



blk said:


> Starting distance is 20 meters, mindset is bloodlusted and there is no knowledge.
> 
> Tell me what stops Nagato from immediatly throw a CST (an instant, invisible and completely undetectable force) at Hashirama and Itachi's face, sending them into space.



He sends out a giant wave of Mokuton that could stop Bijuudama's in base. But honestly, I don't care. Because we're discussing a literary construct, and making an artificial stipulation that would never be in said manga invalidates any results.



blk said:


> I guess not, this doesn't change anything though, mine was an extreme example like yours.



With Hashirama, he literally does turn over people into Part I characters. 

Like, Itachi's only hope of survival is activating Susano'o and vacating the map. He will contribute nothing and die in the cross-fire between Madara and Hashirama. Madara is a jounin, that's going up against a Kage that doesn't want to kill him.



blk said:


> Who knows?



Who knows how the Bell Test would go down? Everyone?



blk said:


> Hashirama was at his limit against Susano'o Kyuubi, actually.
> He and Madara are equals, Perfect Susano'o alone can potentially replicate what the Kyuubi version did by throwing swords without Bijuudamas, with the same strength that renders the construct able to create mountain busting shockwaves just by swinging its swords. Swords thrown with such strength will certainly have the needed speed for cut through Hashirama's statue.
> 
> Also, Nagato doesn't add just firepower, and there is also the Gedo to consider.



lol


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 29, 2013)

> Perfect Susano'o alone can potentially replicate what the Kyuubi version did by throwing swords without Bijuudamas, with the same strength that renders the construct able to create mountain busting shockwaves just by swinging its swords.



Do you honestly think that the Kyuubi was not covered in Perfect Susano?


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## blk (Apr 29, 2013)

αce said:


> Madara is on par with Hashirama _with_ the Kyuubi. Otherwise they aren't comparable. Keep in mind that Hashirama was also reluctant to actually use Sage Mode until he realized there was no other option. If I'm assuming that Hashirama won't be affected by his emotions in this match, the initial use of Sage Mode against EMS Madara would be completely overwhelming.
> 
> 
> EMS Madara and base Hashirama are equivalent in strength. EMS Madara with the Kyuubi is equivalent with Sage Mode Hashirama to an extent. Without it, it's not even fair.



I beg to differ.

What Madara did with the Kyuubi can be replicated without the Bijuudamas (refer to my previous posts).

Yes, its overall power will be diminished, but the damages to Hashirama's statue will still be huge.




Kai said:


> Even EMS Madara with Kyuubi can be handled by base Hashirama, as Shodai was redirecting the bijuudamas and wrapping them with the Mokuton Dragon.
> 
> It's *only* when Madara fused the two entities of Perfect Susano'o + Kyuubi that he forced Hashirama to run away and subsequently enter Sage Mode.
> 
> Hashirama's that powerful that he was able to dance with two of the most powerful entities separately in base condition.



Ehm, before the fusion between PS and Kyuubi.... the former wasn't even being used.

No, Hashirama didn't dealt with PS in base, and by feats i don't see how he can compete with it without the SM.





Komnenos said:


> Actually, I assume that unless specified, the thread tries to emulate the manga. Because, you know, we're discussing the manga. So, you know, results that actually hold relevance to the manga are better.



And how do you determine with certainty which circumstances emulate the manga better in non-canonical battles?

Why is your interpretation preferable to the others?

Again, as far as i'm concerned, without stipulations everything is an assumption.



> He sends out a giant wave of Mokuton that could stop Bijuudama's in base. But honestly, I don't care. Because we're discussing a literary construct, and making an artificial stipulation that would never be in said manga invalidates any results.



So, he will _physically react_ to an _instant_ force that he _can't even perceive, without any knowledge_ of it.
I'm sure that not even you believe to this.

The battledome isn't about how a fight will be in the manga, it is about _non-canonical_ fights with _non-canonical conditions_.
The outcome can't be canonical.

I just used one of your "typical" stipulations, and Hashirama loses.




> With Hashirama, he literally does turn over people into Part I characters.
> 
> Like, Itachi's only hope of survival is activating Susano'o and vacating the map. He will contribute nothing and die in the cross-fire between Madara and Hashirama. Madara is a jounin, that's going up against a Kage that doesn't want to kill him.



I disagree.



> Who knows how the Bell Test would go down? Everyone?



Not sure what you mean with this question.



> lol



Feel free to elaborate further on why such a thing is not possible.




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Do you honestly think that the Kyuubi was not covered in Perfect Susano?



Do you mean in the VoTE battle? Yes, the Kyuubi was covered by Susano'o.

But you have probably misunderstood what i meant, though.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 29, 2013)

Kai said:


> Even EMS Madara with Kyuubi can be handled by base Hashirama, as Shodai was redirecting the bijuudamas and wrapping them with the Mokuton Dragon.
> 
> It's *only* when Madara fused the two entities of Perfect Susano'o + Kyuubi that he forced Hashirama to run away and subsequently enter Sage Mode.
> 
> ...



But what is his defence against Preta Path?


----------



## Former Duelist (Apr 29, 2013)

CT vs Buddha - The technique creates a satellite using surrounding materials as seen in both Nagato fights.Unlike the three *energy* attacks used to destroy the giant Buddha is a physical construct and as such would become part of the CT sphere (Munboy has said this several times and it seems that because it's Hashirama logic goes out the window)

CST - Nothing more than an amped ST. When used against Konoha the area directly affected was pulverized and the rest of the village was remodeled due to a shockwave. What happens if focused on a human?


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## ImSerious (Apr 29, 2013)

Tsunade tanked CST.

Hashirama's regeneration was said to be on a higher level than hers.


Just saiyan.


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## Sans (Apr 29, 2013)

blk said:


> I beg to differ.
> 
> What Madara did with the Kyuubi can be replicated without the Bijuudamas (refer to my previous posts).
> 
> Yes, its overall power will be diminished, but the damages to Hashirama's statue will still be huge.



Perfect Susano'o plus Kyuubi = certain attack.

2 + 2 = 4.

Perfect Susano'o plus nothing = not that attack.

2 + 0 = 2.



blk said:


> No, Hashirama didn't dealt with PS in base, and by feats i don't see how he can compete with it without the SM.



He was though.



blk said:


> And how do you determine with certainty which circumstances emulate the manga better in non-canonical battles?



I dunno, because in the manga, which is a literary construct about characters, they have in-character inclinations. So, in-character emulates that better.

Then we can look at the distances the fight normally starts at. Most ninja normally speak first, which defacto leads to fights starting at anywhere between 5 and 50m distance.

Now for restrictions, have none. Because ninja in the manga don't have any.

Wow gee whiz, was that so hard?



blk said:


> Why is your interpretation preferable to the others?



Because we're discussing what's going to happen if two characters from a manga show up and started fighting. So, assuming that unless otherwise, it would be like the manga, I dunno, it seems rational.

Not "wow gee whiz, I wonder if Hashirama is asleep and can't counter them!!"



blk said:


> So, he will _physically react_ to an _instant_ force that he _can't even perceive, without any knowledge_ of it.
> I'm sure that not even you believe to this.



Wow gee whiz, you said they were blood lusted. So I guess blood lusted means Hashirama is going to stand there and take it like a bitch.

Chou Shinra Tensei isn't instant, you can see it spreading out over the village.

Hashirama has god tier speed and has to just make one attack in the time it takes Nagato to make one attack. His Mokuton took Bijuudama's in base, do the freaking math.

Also Tsunade using shittier versions of Hashirama's stuff survived Chou Shinra Tensei. Hashirama would survive, heal, destroy; if he got hit.



blk said:


> The battledome isn't about how a fight will be in the manga, it is about _non-canonical_ fights with _non-canonical conditions_.
> The outcome can't be canonical.



This is the strictest definition I've ever seen. I would prefer for my results to be grounded in what we've actually discussed. If you want to use a system of thought that can recognisably be at odds with anything that would happen in the manga we're discussing, be my guest.



blk said:


> I just used one of your "typical" stipulations, and Hashirama loses.



1. No he doesn't.

2. Blood lust is hardly typical in the manga. 




blk said:


> I disagree.



You are so wrong it ceased being funny when you approximately first posted.



blk said:


> Not sure what you mean with this question.



You said who knows how the Bell Test would go down.

My response is that everyone would know, because it's pretty damn obvious.



blk said:


> Feel free to elaborate further on why such a thing is not possible.



I would prefer to try and regain some comedy from the totally blind posters in the BD.



blk said:


> But you have probably misunderstood what i meant, though.



You probably misunderstood the manga.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 29, 2013)

So I come back from a concert and read through the thread, and now even hardcore Uchiha supporters are admitting Hashirama takes this comfortably. I'm getting negged for fanboying Hashirama? Hah.

Perfect Susano'o feats cap at the mountain cutting, for which Hashirama doesn't even need Sage Mode to deal with. Nagato's Rinnegan may cause Shodai to use Senjutsu, but then the match is over. They're helpless against his full power. Nagato is backhanded, none of his "nukes" are stopping that thing when the combined might of Kurama (Firepower God) & Madara couldn't. 

Even we assume that blk's ridiculous strategy of Perfect Susano'o throwing its swords (which are toothpick sized compared to Shinsuusenju) and replicating the damage done in the Manga would work.....Susano'o would still be destroyed. Madara would be left wide open to follow up from a Hashirama that doesn't have to worry about subduing the Kyuubi.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 29, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So I come back from a concert and read through the thread, and now even hardcore Uchiha supporters are admitting Hashirama takes this comfortably. I'm getting negged for fanboying Hashirama? Hah.
> 
> Perfect Susano'o feats cap at the mountain cutting, for which Hashirama doesn't even need Sage Mode to deal with. Nagato's Rinnegan may cause Shodai to use Senjutsu, but then the match is over. They're helpless against his full power. Nagato is backhanded, none of his "nukes" are stopping that thing when the combined might of Kurama (Firepower God) & Madara couldn't.
> 
> Even we assume that blk's ridiculous strategy of Perfect Susano'o throwing its swords (which are toothpick sized compared to Shinsuusenju) and replicating the damage done in the Manga would work.....Susano'o would still be destroyed. Madara would be left wide open to follow up from a Hashirama that doesn't have to worry about subduing the Kyuubi.



The hilarious thing about this thread as well, is harishama obviously would be able to handle if not solo both Nagato and madara at the same time.

Then on his side is itachi , itachi is one of the most efficient ninjas in the manga, while they are busy with hashi, it is likely itachi will sneak on Nagato and seal him with totsuka like in canon.


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## blk (Apr 30, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Perfect Susano'o plus Kyuubi = certain attack.
> 
> 2 + 2 = 4.
> 
> ...



I never said that the attack is the same (because obviously, Perfect Susano'o alone doesn't have Bijuudamas), but that it is similar in a certain way and can potentially deal serious damages to the statue.

In the manga, he throwed the swords after impaling Bijuudamas with them; the act of just throwing them is faster and easier.
And since we know that PS has enough strength for cause mountain busting shockwaves just by swinging those swords, it's safe to assert that the speed at which they'll be thrown will be extremely high.




> He was though.



All of his jutsu were getting easily destroyed the moment Madara started to use Perfect Susano'o, he needed SM in order to stand up to it.



> I dunno, because in the manga, which is a literary construct about characters, they have in-character inclinations. So, in-character emulates that better.
> 
> Then we can look at the distances the fight normally starts at. Most ninja normally speak first, which defacto leads to fights starting at anywhere between 5 and 50m distance.
> 
> ...



What's IC for a team that never existed in the manga?

The starting distance can change a lot of things, the difference between 5m and 50m (or even 20m or 30m) is huge, and the starting moves of the characters (with all the related consequences) can greatly vary in a similar range.

There are several battles in the manga that have particular restrictions.

But more importantly, i still don't see why i should prefer your stance that without conditions we have to look at how a non-canonical fight will go in the manga.



> Because we're discussing what's going to happen if two characters from a manga show up and started fighting. So, assuming that unless otherwise, it would be like the manga, I dunno, it seems rational.
> 
> Not "wow gee whiz, I wonder if Hashirama is asleep and can't counter them!!"



What seems to you is of no importance.

Provide evidences for the claim that your position is preferable.



> Wow gee whiz, you said they were blood lusted. So I guess blood lusted means Hashirama is going to stand there and take it like a bitch.
> 
> Chou Shinra Tensei isn't instant, you can see it spreading out over the village.
> 
> ...



He's not going to stand there, but he isn't suddenly using that Mokuton shield (which was the only Mokuton thing that survived to the Bijuudama) without knowledge and without being able to perceive what's coming.

From just 20 meters, there is no way that Hashirama will react properly to CST; also, Tsunade didn't took it in her face from such distance.

Heck, the same Mokuton shield is not fast enough for appear before that the CST hit Hashirama.



> This is the strictest definition I've ever seen. I would prefer for my results to be grounded in what we've actually discussed. If you want to use a system of thought that can recognisably be at odds with anything that would happen in the manga we're discussing, be my guest.



Most of the outcomes of the battledome threads have nothing to do with canon, and that's, of course, because the same scenarios that we discussion have nothing to do with canon.
Still, i don't see what's the problem with this.



> 1. No he doesn't.
> 
> 2. Blood lust is hardly typical in the manga.



I was talking about typical conditions in the battledome threads.



> You said who knows how the Bell Test would go down.
> 
> My response is that everyone would know, because it's pretty damn obvious.



Perhaps yes, but this doesn't certainly prove your point in a general way.




Rocky said:


> Even we assume that blk's ridiculous strategy of Perfect Susano'o throwing its swords (which are toothpick sized compared to Shinsuusenju) and replicating the damage done in the Manga would work.....Susano'o would still be destroyed. Madara would be left wide open to follow up from a Hashirama that doesn't have to worry about subduing the Kyuubi.



Why it's ridicolous, i'm not making up anything, all i'm using for this strategy is what we saw in the manga.

And there are still quite several strategies that i can think of, that would probably take down Shinsuusenju.


Moreover, still no one convincingly addressed CST, the soul dragons and what will happen if Madara and the Gedo stop Hashirama from destroying CT.


----------



## Ezekial (Apr 30, 2013)

Nagato can absorb Mokuton making it useless he can also spam summons, his Shinra Tensei in a weakened state solo'd Konoha I imagine at full power he would of obliterated everything.

This bullshit about Madara not being on par with Hashirama is ridiculous his panels already prove that he his, Madara's Katons can wipe Mokuton away, we saw this when he burnt his own Mokuton to "clear the battlefield"

Itachi isn't even relevant because Nagato or Madara can easily deal with him.

That leaves two god tier ninja to fight one who btw are both on par with Hashirama, together they would easily beat him, Madara has already proven he can fight on par with Hashi and anyone who says he can't is a pure troll as it was in the flashbacks, a healthy Nagato with Gedo is OP.

Like I said Madara and Nagato win easily.



rubberguy said:


> No kyuubi but gedo is available and nagato is healthy.
> Scenerio 2
> madara get kyuubi nagato lose gedo. Is it fair now?


No Madara and Nagato are still OP, you need to handicap them


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

Ezekial said:


> Nagato can absorb Mokuton making it useless he can also spam summons, his Shinra Tensei in a weakened state solo'd Konoha I imagine at full power he would of obliterated everything.
> 
> This bullshit about Madara not being on par with Hashirama is ridiculous his panels already prove that he his, Madara's Katons can wipe Mokuton away, we saw this when he burnt his own Mokuton to "clear the battlefield"
> 
> ...




You do realize moukuton has a actual physical form, and it can't  simply be absorbed by pretha path right? It's like saying Nagato wouldn't be hurt if garra dropped a sand tsunami on him because he can absorb chakra 


A full power cst, would be dangerous but against a person who can heal and make a wooden creatures that literally can dwarf the kyubi, how is that going to work? And if itachi clone feints him, and hashi survives he will have to recharge which will hurt in the long run.



IMO, hashi and madara are equal when hashi is in base, but in sage mode there is literally no contest, madara needed the kyubi to fight on par with hashi in sage mode, I'm a big uchiha fan but facts are facts.


To say itachi isn't relevant is not wise, the easiest way to shut itachi down is if madara deals with him, but then how the hell will Nagato deal with hashi one on one  
and then how will madara take on a sage mode hashi in a one n one fight, no kyubi?


Nagato and mads attention will mostly be on hashi and then itachi will likely seize a opportunity to seal Nagato much like in canon, when Nagato attention was diverted to bee and naruto, lets not forget hashi has moukuton clones as well as bringer of darkness.



Hate to burst your bubble but Nagato isn't god tier, he isn't on bm naruto, hashi,obito, or madaras tier don't no where you got that from.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Together Madara and Nagato have an almost perfect defence. Nagato's Preta Path shuts down all of Itachi and Hashirama's Ninjutsu. Refer to Madara's comment regarding the Preta Path against Ninjutsu and Shikaku's insight based on Madara using the Preta Path. On top of that Madara's Susanoo and fan can defend against all non-chakra attacks. 

What does this mean? Well Itachi and Hashirama are _forced_ into using Taijutsu. Unless Hashirama has something like Naruto's frog-fu, then I doubt just the mere fact he has Sage Mode means that he'll steamroll anyone- with the things we've got to work with. Especially as with Sage Mode he clearly didn't steamroll Madara, who now has back up. 

Plus Taijutsu against two high level shinobi is going suicide especially when your foes are a healthy Nagato and EMS Madara. As Obito demonstrated, the fan can be very useful in Taijutsu- but Madara has his trusty scythe alongside it too. Then you have Nagato who could end things if he so much as strangles or touches his foe. That isn't including the surprise Shinra Tensei and Demon Path powers he could use. 

With this combined CQC assault, if Hashirama tried he'd quickly be forced into using Ninjutsu again which would be absorbed and give Madara/Nagato the opening they need to take him out. 

Of course Hashirama does have Itachi here. However Itachi would prolong things, but he wouldn't necessarily change much given that he's not got something special to bypass Madara and Nagato's collective might. It also doesn't help that Madara and Nagato would be able to easily pressure Itachi, and Hashirama would be forced to try and protect him which could leave some openings too.

Now for scenario 1, there's the option of the Gedo Mazo being summoned. That means the dragons could potentially solo, if the Gedo Mazo's own jutsu won't provide team Hashirama a lot of trouble. Of course, Nagato and Madara are partners. Nothing prevents Madara from combining Susanoo with Gedo Mazo, which could cause a lot of trouble. 

Scenario 2, you just swap the combined Susanoo Gedo with the combined Susanoo Kurama. Of course this time it has a Rinnegan guard who'll be able absorb the only thing that beat it.

If you honestly think about it, team Doujutsu are basically Rinnegan Madara split in two w/o Mokuton.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

I really don't understand where people get this ridiculous notion, that pretha path can shut down moukuton.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> I really don't understand where people get this ridiculous notion, that pretha path can shut down moukuton.



It is very simple: Mokuton is Ninjutsu and Preta Path absorbs Ninjutsu.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is very simple: Mokuton is Ninjutsu and Preta Path absorbs Ninjutsu.



Lol so garras sand tsunami is a ninjutsu as well, and you seriously believe if he drops it on nagato's head, he would go completely unscathed?


----------



## Ezekial (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> You do realize moukuton has a actual physical form, *and it can simply be absorbed by pretha path right?* It's like saying Nagato wouldn't be hurt if garra dropped a sand tsunami on him because he can absorb chakra


|I know that's what I said





Bkprince33 said:


> A full power cst, would be dangerous but against a person who can heal and make a wooden creatures that literally can dwarf the kyubi, how is that going to work? And if itachi clone feints him, and hashi survives he will have to recharge which will hurt in the long run.


Because Itachi has wicked clone feints right? So what if it dwarfs Kurama a weakened Shinra Tensei sent Gamabunta flying and solo's Konoha 






Bkprince33 said:


> IMO, hashi and madara are equal when hashi is in base, but in sage mode there is literally no contest, madara needed the kyubi to fight on par with hashi in sage mode, I'm a big uchiha fan but facts are facts.


How did Madara need the Kyuubi? Hashi actually needed SM in order to compete, even after the Kyuubi was released Madara and Hashi fought for some time after





Bkprince33 said:


> To say itachi isn't relevant is not wise, the easiest way to shut itachi down is if madara deals with him, but then how the hell will Nagato deal with hashi one on one
> and then how will madara take on a sage mode hashi in a one n one fight, no kyubi?


Itachi is by far the weakest one CT and he's dead. Again Madara can fight on par with Hashi without Kurama, manga proves it.




Bkprince33 said:


> Nagato and mads attention will mostly be on hashi and then itachi will likely seize a opportunity to seal* Nagato much like in canon*, when Nagato attention was diverted to bee and naruto, lets not forget hashi has moukuton clones as well as bringer of darkness.


My god, that is not what happened, Nagato was servearly handicapped being that Kabuto had full control.






Bkprince33 said:


> Hate to burst your bubble but Nagato isn't god tier, he isn't on bm naruto, hashi,obito, or madaras tier don't no where you got that from.


HAHAHA yes he is, he was easily soloing Naruto Itachi and Bee. He solo'd Kakashi, Jiraiya and Konoha.



Bkprince33 said:


> I really don't understand where people get this ridiculous notion, that pretha path can shut down moukuton.


Maybe from the fact that it has been confirmed that Preta can absorb all ninjutsu and er... MOKUTON IS NINJUTSU


----------



## Bonly (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is very simple: Mokuton is Ninjutsu and Preta Path absorbs Ninjutsu.



Kuchiyose: Yatai Kuzushi is a ninjutsu. Is preta path going to absorb a living huge toad falling on top of said person?


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## Ezekial (Apr 30, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Kuchiyose: Yatai Kuzushi is a ninjutsu. Is preta path going to absorb a living huge toad falling on top of said person?



No it isn't it's a summon -snip-


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

Ezekial said:


> |I know that's what I said
> .


Clearly I meant can't but I will continue to wait on your response on the matter.


Ezekial said:


> Because Itachi has wicked clone feints right? So what if it dwarfs Kurama a weakened Shinra Tensei sent Gamabunta flying and solo's Konoha
> .


I realy can't tell if your joking or if your serious? Itachi clone fainted sm Kabuto, sasuke, kakashi, kurenai, just to name a few.


And how is gamabunta even remotely relevant to the Buddha in all seriousness ? 

You do realize kn6 resisted  shinra tensei and reversed it right? What do you think the Buddha will do? The same Buddha that beat a full kyubi armored with ps ? I feel like I'm refuting the obvious.


Ezekial said:


> How did Madara need the Kyuubi? Hashi actually needed SM in order to compete, even after the Kyuubi was released Madara and Hashi fought for some time after
> .


He needed sm to beat the hax combo of a Susano armored kyubi please don't make me refute the obvious, madara fought hashi and loss plenty of times before that.


Ezekial said:


> Itachi is by far the weakest one CT and he's dead. Again Madara can fight on par with Hashi without Kurama, manga proves it.
> .


Itachi is the weakest here, but he's also the smartest, and strong enough to be a threat, so its basically one of the smartest ninja's in the manga paired with the strongest ninja in the manga.

Considering itachi already over came ct, with Kcm naruto and bee, what do you think itachi and hashi will do , 

so if manga proves it show me a tie between hashi and madara, better yet show me a scan of madara fighting sm hashi without the kyubi, don't worry I'll wait 



Ezekial said:


> My god, that is not what happened, Nagato was servearly handicapped being that Kabuto had full control.
> .


 

You love to argue against manga canon don't you? What Nagato lost in his ability to control himself he gained with having a immortal body, him having control over himself won't make much of a difference, it's not like he has high intelligence feats to show it would of made a big difference, especially when you consider the fact they beat his strongest move.



Ezekial said:


> HAHAHA yes he is, he was easily soloing Naruto Itachi and Bee. He solo'd Kakashi, Jiraiya and Konoha.



You mean he was soloing a naruto and bee who was dumbed down, by plot? And as soon as itachi stepped in the mix he lost? That's pretty much what happened.

I could argue Kcm has a great chance at beating Nagato in a one on one.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Lol so garras sand tsunami is a ninjutsu as well, and you seriously believe if he drops it on nagato's head, he would go completely unscathed?



Gaara uses chakra to control sand. Gaara's sand just dropped when Madara used the Preta Path to free himself from Gaara's hold and FRS' wrath.

Nagato has Shinra Tensei, or he could Shunshin his way out of there. Seeing as as a cripple, Nagato's Shunshin was so great that it outpaced the Shinra Tensei he used on his three foes.

However don't make false analogies: Gaara's sand is very different from Mokuton. The former controls sand with chakra and the latter makes Mokuton by fusing Suiton and Doton.



Ezekial said:


> Bonly said:
> 
> 
> > Kuchiyose: Yatai Kuzushi is a ninjutsu. Is preta path going to absorb a living huge toad falling on top of said person?
> ...



Ezekial is right, it is a summoning jutsu. It is a type of space-time Ninjutsu which transports a target from point A to point B. Mokuton actually *creates* wood out of chakra by fusing the water and earth elements.


----------



## Bonly (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Ezekial is right, it is a summoning jutsu. It is a type of space-time Ninjutsu which transports a target from point A to point B. Mokuton actually *creates* wood out of chakra by fusing the water and earth elements.





Ezekial said:


> No it isn't it's a summon, stop being a fail.



Summoning jutsu is a ninjutsu. So does preta path absorbs the toad?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Summoning jutsu is a ninjutsu. So does preta path absorbs the toad?





What did I just say:

Ezekial is right, it is a *summoning jutsu*. It *is a type of space-time Ninjutsu* which *transports a target* from point A to point B. *Mokuton actually creates wood out of chakra* by fusing the water and earth elements.​
In other words: summoning just transports something like a toad from one location to another. Mokuton *creates* wood out by fusing Suiton and Doton chakra i.e. it is an entire chakra construct unlike summoning.


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## Ezekial (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Clearly I meant can't but I will continue to wait on your response on the matter.


 Mokuton = ninjutsu, Preta absorbs ninjutsu



Bkprince33 said:


> I realy can't tell if your joking or if your serious? Itachi clone fainted sm Kabuto, sasuke, kakashi, kurenai, just to name a few.


Has he fought the Rinnegan? No




Bkprince33 said:


> And how is gamabunta even remotely relevant to the Buddha in all seriousness ?


Gamabunta is giant and a weak ST sent him flying, the budda would be wiped out or is it more durable then an entire city?



Bkprince33 said:


> You do realize kn6 resisted  shinra tensei and reversed it right? What do you think the Buddha will do? The same Buddha that beat a full kyubi armored with ps ? I feel like I'm refuting the obvious.


That's cool but how do you know the budda will resist? fan fic



Bkprince33 said:


> He needed sm to beat the hax combo of a Susano armored kyubi please don't make me refute the obvious, madara fought hashi and loss plenty of times before that.



He still needed sm to compete up untill that point he was losing, Madara still took on Hashi and co and lasted 24 hrs



Bkprince33 said:


> Itachi is the weakest here, but he's also the smartest, and strong enough to be a threat, so its basically one of the smartest ninja's in the manga paired with the strongest ninja in the manga.
> Considering itachi already over came ct, with Kcm naruto and bee, what do you think itachi and hashi will do ,



So Itachi and Hashi will be able to casually destroy CST whilst Madara just cheers them on? Yeah ok Madara would occupy Hashi, Itach can not destroy CST by himself



Bkprince33 said:


> so if manga proves it show me a tie between hashi and madara, better yet show me a scan of madara fighting sm hashi without the kyubi, don't worry I'll wait


 Irrelevant, Kurama is a much Madara's power as SM is Hashi's.



Bkprince33 said:


> You love to argue against manga canon don't you? What Nagato lost in his ability to control himself he gained with having a immortal body, *him having control over himself won't make much of a difference*, it's not like he has high intelligence feats to show it would of made a big difference, especially when you consider the fact they beat his strongest move.








Bkprince33 said:


> You mean he was soloing a naruto and bee who was dumbed down, by plot? And as soon as itachi stepped in the mix he lost? That's pretty much what happened.
> I could argue Kcm has a great chance at beating Nagato in a one on one.


Again


----------



## Bonly (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What did I just say:
> 
> Ezekial is right, it is a *summoning jutsu*. It *is a type of space-time Ninjutsu* which *transports a target* from point A to point B. *Mokuton actually creates wood out of chakra* by fusing the water and earth elements.​
> In other words: summoning just transports something like a toad from one location to another. Mokuton *creates* wood out by fusing Suiton and Doton chakra i.e. it is an entire chakra construct unlike summoning.



Concession accepted.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Concession accepted.



Explain how it a concession. While you're doing that explain the link between why the summoning jutsu means Mokuton cannot be absorbed. 

For reference Mokuton is a Ninjutsu made by fusing two elements. Whereas the Rinnegan has been able to absorb more powerful Ninjutsu (Jinton) and was even the first choice of defence against another elemental fusion (Ranton).


----------



## blk (Apr 30, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Summoning jutsu is a ninjutsu. So does preta path absorbs the toad?



A summoning jutsu transports a thing from place to another.

The ninjutsu is just the transportation process, the thing that it does transport can be anything and is not part of the ninjutsu itself.

I'm not quite sure if Preta Path can absorb Mokuton, but your analogy is terrible.

You cannot overlook all the differences that there are between a summoning jutsu and Mokuton.


----------



## Bonly (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Explain how it a concession. While you're doing that explain the link between why the summoning jutsu means Mokuton cannot be absorbed.
> 
> For reference Mokuton is a Ninjutsu made by fusing two elements. Whereas the Rinnegan has been able to absorb more powerful Ninjutsu (Jinton) and was even the first choice of defence against another elemental fusion (Ranton).



Quite simple.

Is Kuchiyose: Yatai Kuzushi a ninjutsu? Did you not say that preta path absorbs ninjutsu? Your opinion on the working of Kuchiyose: Yatai Kuzushi doesn't matter as its still a ninjutsu thus per your logic the toads gets absorbed. Yet you don't say it would, thus I accepted your concession. Just so you know im just trolling


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Quite simple.
> 
> Is Kuchiyose: Yatai Kuzushi a ninjutsu? Did you not say that preta path absorbs ninjutsu? Your opinion on the working of Kuchiyose: Yatai Kuzushi doesn't matter as its still a ninjutsu thus per your logic the toads gets absorbed. Yet you don't say it would, thus I accepted your concession.



If you knew what my logic was, you'd not have missed the clear distinctions it absorbs chakra. Though technically summoning could be stopped if the Rinnegan user grabbed the foe and continually absorbed chakra. 
In other words no chakra means no summoning. 

Also understand the summoning process before using it in an argument like this and dropping "concession" randomly: the only chakra process in summoning is the chakra generated prior the summoning. 

However your overall point was terrible. You can quite clearly read the point was Mokuton vs Preta Path. Unless you were trying to put a link between the two... Plus given your point, as blk said, your analogy was terrible given that summoning doesn't send a whole bunch of chakra towards the opponent like Mokuton does.



> Just so you know im just trolling



Oh I see now.


----------



## Ezekial (Apr 30, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Just so you know im just trolling


I apologize I negged you, I'll rep you when I can.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

Ezekial said:


> Mokuton = ninjutsu, Preta absorbs ninjutsu
> 
> Has he fought the Rinnegan? No



I could adopt your same logic and say yes he has obviously since he helped against Nagato but I'm not immature and I know what you ment so I will answer.


He feinted 2 sharingon users in there face, and the rinnengon doesn't have the same precognition, not to mention Nagato fell for naruto's clone feint in canon, but it seems that you lack the ability to put 2 and 2 together so I don't expect you to agree.


Ezekial said:


> Gamabunta is giant and a weak ST sent him flying, the budda would be wiped out or is it more durable then an entire city?


I tried so hard to ignore this but I have to respond

  

In all seriousness you believe a st will whipe out the thousand hand Buddah? Then by that same logic a st should whipe out madara's perfect Susano correct?



Ezekial said:


> That's cool but how do you know the budda will resist? fan fic


Kn6 resisted with strength, he anchored himself down and resisted it, you seriously think the Buddah doesn't have the necessary strength to resist it? I find it funny how you make numerous assumptions and excuses if it benefits madara, but you have a scan or feats only policy when it comes to everyone else? Seems totally fair and unbiased 



Ezekial said:


> He still needed sm to compete up untill that point he was losing, Madara still took on Hashi and co and lasted 24 hrs



And if madara lost with kyubi to sm hashi, what will happend if he fights sm hashi without the kyubi, it's really not that hard to process 



Ezekial said:


> So Itachi and Hashi will be able to casually destroy CST whilst Madara just cheers them on? Yeah ok Madara would occupy Hashi, Itach can not destroy CST by himself



So madara can casually run up to hashi while ct is pulling everything around them? 

Stop making me refute the obvious madara would obviously be pulled in as well if he tried something like that.


Ezekial said:


> Irrelevant, Kurama is a much Madara's power as SM is Hashi's.


Nobody argued that, but what you seem to not get is kyubi is restricted.

It's nothing wrong with madara being second strongest, and it could evenly possibly change with new feats, stop being so butthurt, it makes all uchiha fans look bad.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

You know KN6 also has a special chakra shroud that the statue lacks. 
Plus Naruto manage to endure ST too, he didn't just rebound it back now, did he? 

On top of all that: that Shinra Tensei is so much weaker than what Nagato can produce as per se Naruto.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You know KN6 also has a special chakra shroud that the statue lacks.
> Plus Naruto manage to endure ST too, he didn't just rebound it back now, did he?
> 
> On top of all that: that Shinra Tensei is so much weaker than what Nagato can produce as per se Naruto.



Of course naruto without the kyubi shroud naruto could endure a st, so could kakashi, hell even hinata didn't die right away but hashi's Buddah statue would be completely obliterated I guess It makes sense


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Of course naruto without the kyubi shroud naruto could endure a st, so could kakashi, hell even hinata didn't die right away but hashi's Buddah statue would be completely obliterated I guess It makes sense



Naruto with an obscene number of clones was able to endure a weaker ST than Nagato can produce. 

Those names you listed took a weaker ST. Nagato's ST are significantly stronger. I highlighted that distinction.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto with an obscene number of clones was able to endure a weaker ST than Nagato can produce.
> 
> Those names you listed took a weaker ST. Nagato's ST are significantly stronger. I highlighted that distinction.



And how much stronger do you think the Buddah is compared to those I just listed I mean seriously?  this is to funny


----------



## blk (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> And how much stronger do you think the Buddah is compared to those I just listed I mean seriously?  this is to funny



The scale of Nagato's CST is so much greater than the ST that we saw so far, that we can't draw a conclusion based on this kind of comparisons.

More importantly, do not confuse ST with a shockwave (or a current of wind, or whatever): it is a gravitational push, not something that you can oppose simply with strength.
And note that Hashirama is not the statue, he will receive the gravitational push regardless of what will happen to the wood construct.


Also, i'll leave a point: what will Hashirama do if Madara fuses Perfect Susano'o with the Gedo and uses the soul dragons? He won't be able to directly fight it, but he can't escape from it forever, either.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

blk said:


> The scale of Nagato's CST is so much greater than the ST that we saw so far, that we can't draw a conclusion based on this kind of comparisons.


So you believe a cst has more destructive power then armored ps kyubi?



blk said:


> More importantly, do not confuse ST with a shockwave (or a current of wind, or whatever): it is a gravitational push, not something that you can oppose simply with strength.
> And note that Hashirama is not the statue, he will receive the gravitational push regardless of what will happen to the wood construct.


Im not confusing anything, st has already been opposed by kn6.

If tsunade and other ninja survived why wouldn't hashi? Sm boost durability and he can heal himself.

Not to mention after using this move, Nagato gravity powers will be absent for a set time, and he is basically a sitting duck from that point on.


blk said:


> Also, i'll leave a point: what will Hashirama do if Madara fuses Perfect Susano'o with the Gedo and uses the soul dragons? He won't be able to directly fight it, but he can't escape from it forever, either.



Do you believe the gedo is stronger then the kyubi? If not then there's your answer he already managed. To fight something far more dangerous.

If Hanzo avoided it  I'm sure hashi will manage just fine, also this combo would require hashi and itachi to virtually do nothing while they set this up. The triple gates in sm should also  suffice.

Bringer of darkness and moukuton clones will also be extremely problematic for madara and Nagato


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> And how much stronger do you think the Buddah is compared to those I just listed I mean seriously?  this is to funny



You're telling us that the Budda has KN6 level feats. You're also telling us that the Budda can take a ST stronger than the ones the people you listed faced.
You're the one who needs to prove his stuff here given you're the one making assumptions about the Budda statue.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're telling us that the Budda has KN6 level feats. You're also telling us that the Budda can take a ST stronger than the ones the people you listed faced.
> You're the one who needs to prove his stuff here given you're the one making assumptions about the Budda statue.



If I have to spell out common sense things for you don't bother debating me, because your blatantly ignore something obvious just so it benefits your argument.


Funny thing is the entire basis of your argument is a assumption, but for the opposing side you want to Implement a feats only policy, your just like Ezekiel.


Do you have "feats" or "scans" of pretha absorbing moukuton? No, yet you still made the claim, so why is it that I have to provide you with one? 


Bias much?


----------



## blk (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> So you believe a cst has more destructive power then armored ps kyubi?



No, but this has nothing to do with the point.

I'm arguing that CST will push away the buddha.



> Im not confusing anything, st has already been opposed by kn6.
> 
> If tsunade and other ninja survived why wouldn't hashi? Sm boost durability and he can heal himself.
> 
> Not to mention after using this move, Nagato gravity powers will be absent for a set time, and he is basically a sitting duck from that point on.



Hashirama might survive, but while he is being pushed or is recovering, Madara might be able to exploit the opening and slash him.



> Do you believe the gedo is stronger then the kyubi? If not then there's your answer he already managed. To fight something far more dangerous.
> 
> If Hanzo avoided it  I'm sure hashi will manage just fine, also this combo would require hashi and itachi to virtually do nothing while they set this up. The triple gates in sm should also  suffice.
> 
> Bringer of darkness and moukuton clones will also be extremely problematic for madara and Nagato



Kyuubi Susano'o only had firepower, the soul dragons are ethereal entities that will just pass through the Mokuton and take away Hashirama's soul.
How can Hashirama directly fight something that he cannot block? His only possibility is to continously avoid it, which he won't be able to do easily, since Nagato can stop his run with ST/BT.
Also, he cannot possibly win if he only escapes.

The process of fusing Perfect Susano'o and Gedo won't require anymore time than the fusion between the Kyuubi and the former.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> If I have to spell out common sense things for you don't bother debating me, because your blatantly ignore something obvious just so it benefits your argument.



What common sense? You've made unsupported assertions. I just want to know your basis. 



> Funny thing is the entire basis of your argument is a assumption, but for the opposing side you want to Implement a feats only policy, your just like Ezekiel.



Evidence?



> Do you have "feats" or "scans" of pretha absorbing moukuton? No, yet you still made the claim, so why is it that I have to provide you with one?



This is thee weakest argument I have seen from you. *You're* the one who needs to prove Mokuton is more than just an elemental fusion. 
The "Rinnegan cannot absorb Kekkei Genkai elements" argument failed the moment Madara shut down Jinton. 

You cannot be calling bias when you want a specific scan for a specific event. By that logic you should be providing a scan that the statue can tank the specific jutsu you're claiming it should.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

blk said:


> No, but this has nothing to do with the point.
> 
> I'm arguing that CST will push away the buddha.


Ok I apologize, I confused your argument with eizikel and Dracula.

Hmm even so I doubt it, kn8 was able to resist the pull of ct, which is nagato's strongest gravitational move, yeah it wasn't from Nagato himself but I doubt it would be potent enough to push the Buddha away even if it was from Nagato based on pains original showing, even if we give him a 50 percent more boost it should only be potent enough to push or pull the kyubi.



The Buddah is the biggest entity we seened in the manga with the exception of datara.


blk said:


> Hashirama might survive, but while he is being pushed or is recovering, Madara might be able to exploit the opening and slash him.


I doubt it would do much damage sm increases durability and It will boost his healing.

Not to mention if itachi and hashi clone feint Nagato the match is going to end sooner then later.


blk said:


> Kyuubi Susano'o only had firepower, the soul dragons are ethereal entities that will just pass through the Mokuton and take away Hashirama's soul.
> How can Hashirama directly fight something that he cannot block? His only possibility is to continously avoid it, which he won't be able to do easily, since Nagato can stop his run with ST/BT.
> Also, he cannot possibly win if he only escapes.



I need more info on the soul dragons, I doubt it would just pass threw moukuton, considering the fact that itachi's totsuka is a ethereal weapon yet it can't just phase threw objects.

Also as I said this strategy would require itachi and hashi to virtually stand there and do nothing. That is likely not happening.

And if it proves to be to problematic bringer of darkness should work just fine. 


blk said:


> The process of fusing Perfect Susano'o and Gedo won't require anymore time than the fusion between the Kyuubi and the former  .



Yes but now hashi won't be on the defensive end and has back up, the fusion won't go as smoothly as it did before, in this scenerio Nagato and Madara  would be on the defensive end almost immediately. The wooden dragon should also prove useful against the gedo and so will bringer of darkness.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What common sense? You've made unsupported assertions. I just want to know your basis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




When you understand the properties of moukuton then maybe we can have a debate.

I would advise you to read the data book it helps, by your logic you must think pretha can absorb the tailed beast because there constructed of chakra


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> When you understand the properties of moukuton then maybe we can have a debate.
> 
> I would advise you to read the data book it helps, by your logic you must think pretha can absorb the tailed beast because there constructed of chakra



Yamato told us it is merely Suiton + Doton. Care to disprove him? 

You're only giving the impression that your stance has no leg to stand on because you're directly avoiding explaining why Mokuton wouldn't be absorbed like Jinton, and all other Ninjutsu have been.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yamato told us it is merely Suiton + Doton. Care to disprove him?
> 
> You're only giving the impression that your stance has no leg to stand on because you're directly avoiding explaining why Mokuton wouldn't be absorbed like Jinton, and all other Ninjutsu have been.



He uses suiton and Doton, to create the trees, the treets after created have a physical form, pretha has only displayed the ability to absorb raw chakra, example shadow clone is a ninjutsu, does that mean he would be able to absorb a Kcm clone just because its a ninjutsu?


Your taking a statement, "pretha has the ability to absorb all ninjutsu" out of context and then to make matters worst your applying a no limits fallacy to it.


Moukuton has a physical form, jinton does not.


I've repeated the same thing about ten times, your just ignoring it .

But I won't talk in circles with you, it's obvious you just don't get it, so ill end the debate on this note.


Koto isn't restricted so fuck it, itachi koto's madara and soloes


----------



## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're only giving the impression that your stance has no leg to stand on because you're directly avoiding explaining why Mokuton wouldn't be absorbed like Jinton, and all other Ninjutsu have been.






Wow what a terrible contradiction.

You adamantly argue that Mokuton is actually "raw material" much like the earth and trees used to construct Chibaku Tensei. You claim it isn't like FRS or attacks of a similar narture, so therefore CT will break it down.

Now when you discuss Preta's ability, you do a 180 and claim Mokuton is just like the Ninjutsu we've seen Preta actually absorb, like FRS and such. It isn't raw material anymore, because Nagato can't absorb raw material.

Okay I see you bro. I see you.


----------



## ZE (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> He uses suiton and Doton, to create the trees, the treets after created have a physical form, pretha has only displayed the ability to absorb raw chakra, example shadow clone is a ninjutsu, does that mean he would be able to absorb a Kcm clone just because its a ninjutsu?
> 
> 
> Your taking a statement, "pretha has the ability to absorb all ninjutsu" out of context and then to make matters worst your applying a no limits fallacy to it.


The fuck are you talking about? 

Preta is shown in the manga absorbing henge no jutsu (transformation), and was said to be capable of absorbing kage bushin no jutsu. Read the Naruto vs Pain fight, please. The reason the real Naruto had to tackle Fat Pain instead of a clone was due to the fact that the absorption would've negated any approach from a kage bushin.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

ZE said:


> The fuck are you talking about?
> 
> Preta is shown in the manga absorbing henge no jutsu (transformation), and was said to be capable of absorbing kage bushin no jutsu. Read the Naruto vs Pain fight, please. The reason the real Naruto had to tackle Fat Pain instead of a clone was due to the fact that the absorption would've negated any approach from a kage bushin.



He absorb enough chakra to make the transformation disperse, I missed that part if you have a scan that would be kool.

My point is the absorption won't outright absorb the kb, it will absorb the chakra out the kb thus causing it to disperse, if hashi uses a giant wood release pretha would have to absorb the chakra out the actual wood to make it useless which wouldn't happen because the wood would damage him first.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

The idea of Nagato absorbing a clone isn't exactly grade A logic.


----------



## Joakim3 (Apr 30, 2013)

I find it funny now a days just how insanely powerful Hashi is.... Nagato & Madara could literally come running bloodlusted and screaming like viking's with PS encased uber Gedo Mazo nuking with CST and swords swings





And Hashi would still wipe them off the map with his Gigazord... with almost no difficulty, he's that damn powerful 



He makes the "old" top tiers look like your basic Jonin


----------



## Kai (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> He absorb enough chakra to make the transformation disperse, I missed that part if you have a scan that would be kool.


Rude response of him, but he is correct about Preta Path and Henge no jutsu.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Apr 30, 2013)

ZE said:


> I just didn't wanna bother searching for a page to show how wrong you were. But since someone already did it, look what we have here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok and how was your last 2 responses related to your original point?, as I said before I don't have the time to go back and forth with you koto isn't restricted so itachi soloes.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> He uses suiton and Doton, to create the trees, the treets after created have a physical form, pretha has only displayed the ability to absorb raw chakra, example shadow clone is a ninjutsu, does that mean he would be able to absorb a Kcm clone just because its a ninjutsu?
> 
> 
> Your taking a statement, "pretha has the ability to absorb all ninjutsu" out of context and then to make matters worst your applying a no limits fallacy to it.
> ...



What are you talking about? Physical form or not, if it is composed of chakra, it will be absorbed. 
You're trying to add limitations which were never implied. 

Your "physical form" idea has no water given we've seen Preta absorb jutsu like Henge, and the fact Naruto kept his very physical KBs away from said Pain. 

Now here are the facts: Mokuton = Suiton + Fuuton. Yes, an elemental fusion is absorbent, Madara absorbed one like Jinton. And no, of "physical form" is your best argument, then I'll have to presume you've no manga or databook standing to defend the idea that Mokuton is safe from the Preta Path.

Also please explain to me how Kotoamatsukami is utilised in-battle when not used by Shisui or Danzo. 



Rocky said:


> Wow what a terrible contradiction.
> 
> You adamantly argue that Mokuton is actually "raw material" much like the earth and trees used to construct Chibaku Tensei. You claim it isn't like FRS or attacks of a similar narture, so therefore CT will break it down.
> 
> ...





There isn't a contradiction. Hashirama makes something (wood) which is no different to natural wood- except for the fact it is artificial. 

Now the Preta Path absorbs these artificial things, so actual wood wouldn't be absorbent but this chakra constructed wood would be. In other words Mokuton isn't safe.

Your point about Mokuton generating raw materials off the bat is wrong as we know it is a Kekkei Genkai element as per se Yamato.


----------



## Legend777 (Apr 30, 2013)

*Scenario 1 : *

Gedo's fire power pales in comparison to that of 100% Kyuubi's . And I doubt Nagato's attacks start making a difference once Hashirama goes in to SM .  SM Hashirama might be able to solo and adding Itachi who has hax one shot attacks makes this a comfortable victory for them .

*Scenario 2 : *

Madara and Nagato should take this .


----------



## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> ]
> Hashirama makes something (wood) which is no different to natural wood- except for the fact it is



 

So you're new argument is that the _only_ difference between Hashirama's Mokuton & a wooden board is that the former is made Chakra?


Also, isn't you're entire CT theory shut down by the fact that Magatama, Bijuudama & FRS were drawn in just like everything else?

Oh yeah, and Mokuton isn't artificial. It's alive.


----------



## Baroxio (Apr 30, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Hashirama's chakra is the *life force* for the trees, and it is what grows and controls them. The trees themselves aren't pure chakra.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Reposting for relevance and added content


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So you're new argument is that the _only_ difference between Hashirama's Mokuton & a wooden board is that the former is made Chakra?
> 
> 
> Also, isn't you're entire CT theory shut down by the fact that Magatama, Bijuudama & FRS were drawn in just like everything else?



You're confused.

CT vs Mokuton = the latter would be assilimated.
Preta Path vs Mokuton = the latter is a style of Ninjutsu thus it is absorbed. 

You're jumbling the arguments. 

How is the CT theory shut down exactly? Yes CT draws things to it. However those three energy chakra constructs are very different from Mokuton which takes the form of something CT uses as building blocks. 



Baroxio said:


> Reposting for relevance and added content



Yes, Mokuton has immense life force but so does KCM's shroud. Nagato was able to absorb the chakra arm KCM Naruto used when he absorbed Rasengan.

Also read your first page: "*his chakra became* the the root of the plants life force". This is later expanded in part two during the wind training when Yamato explicitly said Mokuton is the result of Suiton and Doton.


----------



## Baroxio (Apr 30, 2013)

I think you misunderstand what I am stating. I'm saying that his chakra simply becomes the *life force* for the trees, enabling them to grow, allowing them to be maneuvered according to his will. 

But nowhere is it stated that the trees themsleves are purely chakra constructs, and the fact that chakra becomes their "*life force*" implies that they are in fact, *alive*.

As such Preta Path isn't going to simply absorb any Mokuton construct Hashirama creates, but it may simply stop them from *growing*.

Unfortunately, it can't stop their Momentum, so Thousand Fists GG.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> I think you misunderstand what I am stating. I'm saying that his chakra simply becomes the *life force* for the trees, enabling them to grow, allowing them to be maneuvered according to his will.
> 
> But nowhere is it stated that the trees themsleves are purely chakra constructs, and the fact that chakra becomes their "*life force*" implies that they are in fact, *alive*.
> 
> ...



The page can have another spin, his chakra became the root of the plant's life force. As in its life force came to be because he was able to create it out of nothing. 

Back then we had no understanding of Ninjutsu. However he linked chakra to the trees. It was all well and good. Till Kishimoto gave us a further understanding of how Mokuton works via Yamato. He explicitly said two elements are fused to make it. 

In other words like all Ninjutsu, it is a chakra construct. Unless Hashirama uses wood chakra to manipulate natural elements like Doton and Suiton users do. However we've not gotten that indication. Any random growths from the ground could be attributed to the use of Doton chakra which functions by altering any ground the user wishes to alter.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How is the CT theory shut down exactly? Yes CT draws things to it. However those three energy chakra constructs are very different from Mokuton which takes the form of something CT uses as building blocks.



I'm aware that I'm mixing my arguments. I'm jumping between different points.

CT tried to use FRS as a "building block". The difference being that Rasenshuriken explodes, while the rocks do not. 

Before I continue with my point, just answer something for me. If FRS, Magatama, and Bijuudama were made of wood, but still retained their destructive capabilities, what would be the outcome of that battle?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Before I continue with my point, just answer something for me. If FRS, Magatama, and Bijuudama were made of wood, but still retained their destructive capabilities, what would be the outcome of that battle?



If they retained their destructive capabilities, sure they'd be attacked but they'd also explode (sceptical about Magatama though).

However unless you've got some evidence that Mokuton from Hashirama possesses the same destructive nature as the three jutsu you mentioned (particularly FRS and Bijuu-Dama)... . Not much is going to change.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> However unless you've got some evidence that Mokuton from Hashirama possesses the same destructive nature as the three jutsu you mentioned (particularly FRS and Bijuu-Dama)... . Not much is going to change.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


>



And this proves what? Unless that statue has some explosions style punches, you're just posting a picture of Hashirama's jutsu.


----------



## Csdabest (Apr 30, 2013)

Itachi and Hashirama take this. Im not even basing this over weather Hashirama is actually stronger than Madara w/ kyuubi or anything. Seeing as how Hashirama barely edged it by an hair. Im basing this off of the fact that Itachi has shown he is highly capable of one shotting Nagato. Even after Nagato expects it. Then this is going to turn into a 2 on 1 fight with two power houses. So I doubt that that EMS Madara can take  on both


----------



## Csdabest (Apr 30, 2013)

ZE said:


> The fuck are you talking about?
> 
> Preta is shown in the manga absorbing henge no jutsu (transformation), and was said to be capable of absorbing kage bushin no jutsu. Read the Naruto vs Pain fight, please. The reason the real Naruto had to tackle Fat Pain instead of a clone was due to the fact that the absorption would've negated any approach from a kage bushin.



We can assume that Mokuton is just like Gaara's Sand. Madara used the Absorption technique of the Rinnegan and absorbed the chakra from the sand. Rendering it lifeless and limp. The same thing will happen Mokuton against Nagato. My thing is.Nagato getting overwhelmed by the shere mass of things And it seems you actually have to touch the jutsu or be extremely extremely close. And cutting it that close with sharp branches that can cover an an entire battlefield. Rinnegan is not going to do much against.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Csdabest said:


> We can assume that Mokuton is just like Gaara's Sand. Madara used the Absorption technique of the Rinnegan and absorbed the chakra from the sand.



Only we cannot assume that Mokuton is just like sand. We know Gaara clearly manipulates the sand with his chakra. However with Mokuton we also know via Yamato that it is clearly formed by fusing the Doton and Suiton elements. The difference is with the sand, your point holds up. However with the Mokuton, it is subject to the same fate as all Ninjutsu formed with elemental chakra.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> And this proves what? Unless that statue has some explosions style punches, you're just posting a picture of Hashirama's jutsu.



Shinsuusenju's blows are much more powerful than Bijuudama.


----------



## αce (Apr 30, 2013)

How does Hashirama not possess the same level of destruction as a bijuu dama? Perhaps you should go back and look at the Buddha's size. It made the Kyuubi look like a gnat and was towering over mountains. Simply by _walking_ it was already doing comparable damage. It also stripped off _perfect_ Susano-o's cloak which obviously takes damage more than a bijuu dama because the Susano-o itself simply tanked one earlier casually and went on. And maybe I should reiterate what I was stating earlier. Sage mode enhances Hashirama's abilities on the same scale that Naruto's were amplified. If Hashirama can create forests in mere instants in base, the amount that he would be able to do in Sage Mode is just laughably stupid. And just to make sure we are on the same page here, Naruto went from not being able to lift a statue to throwing a gigantic rhino into the fucking stratosphere after he obtained sage mode. 



Also this preta argument is rather silly. Hashirama gives _life force_ to his trees. I'm not sure how much clearer the manga has to be on the subject. The first instance of this was when his wood reacted to Naruto's chakra. Hashirama doesn't make dead trees. His life force grants his Mokuton life and thus preta is rendered useless as it cannot absorb living things. Yes, Mokuton is constructed from a Doton+Suiton mix but the result, regardless of the ingredients, is alive.

Is anyone going to argue that Zetsu is simply chakra and not actually alive? Because that would be an interesting stance to take. How many times have we seen leaves from Hashirama's trees? Do you really think that those said leaves are simply chakra constructs? Hashirama does not create fake trees.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Shinsuusenju's blows are much more powerful than Bijuudama.



Sure, but it is a physical attack not 'energy like' as Bijuu-Dama is.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sure, but it is a physical attack not 'energy like' as Bijuu-Dama is.




So? I didn't know that being an "energy like" attack (whatever that means, as Shinsuusenju releases plenty of energy with it's fists) was a perquisite to destroying Chibaku Tensei.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So? I didn't know that being an "energy like" attack (whatever that means, as Shinsuusenju releases plenty of energy with it's fists) was a perquisite to destroying Chibaku Tensei.



A prerequisite of destroying CT is having a jutsu of a similar nature to FRS/Bijuu-Dama. However if Hashirama does what you state, what's likely to happen is CT will have a nice strong shell. 

Just to help clear the confusion from earlier though artificial, in front of CT that wooden statue is a wooden statue. Whereas in front of the Preta Path it is Mokuton chakra waiting to be absorbed.


----------



## Sans (Apr 30, 2013)

I see Hashirama's Mokuton is in a state of quantum flux; it is either a physical construct or pure chakra depending on Nagato's need.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Just to help clear the confusion from earlier though artificial, in front of CT that wooden statue is a wooden statue. Whereas in front of the Preta Path it is Mokuton chakra waiting to be absorbed.




What the actual fuck.


Not only is that statement in general bad, but I think you just implied Preta Path could absorb Shinsuusenju.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What the actual fuck.
> 
> 
> Not only is that statement in general bad, but I think you just implied Preta Path could absorb Shinsuusenju.



Unless it is made from pure natural energy it is absorbent.


----------



## Sans (Apr 30, 2013)

So it's just chakra (with no life force) when dealing with Preta, but dealing with Chibaku Tensei makes it take on physical attributes that let it add to the mass?

Ignoring that the second part is stupid regardless.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> So it's just chakra (with no life force) when dealing with Preta, but dealing with Chibaku Tensei makes it take on physical attributes that let it add to the mass?
> 
> Ignoring that the second part is stupid regardless.



KCM Naruto's shroud also has life force it its attack and chakra arm still got absorbed. 

You've got to differentiate between the two points. Being able to be taken by CT doesn't automatically make it a natural element; Hashirama makes chakra wood/artificial wood that functions like real wood. So like real wood it'd contribute to CT.
However in the end it is still artificial - chakra made - so it is absorbent.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

Naruto's shroud was never absorbed. An arm of pure Chakra is what you're speaking of, but even that isn't clear.

The Bijuu are Chakra made. Are they absorbent?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto's shroud was never absorbed. An arm of pure Chakra is what you're speaking of, but even that isn't clear.
> 
> The Bijuu are Chakra made. Are they absorbent?



It is pretty clear, the Rasengan alongside the chakra arm got absorbed. 

Ask the author.


----------



## Sans (Apr 30, 2013)

I concede.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

I had to take it. I had to.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 30, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I had to take it. I had to.



Oh my...Rocky, if you're going to take my set I custom ordered from Winchester, at least use the correct Avatar and credit us.



This is supposed to be the avatar.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 30, 2013)

.........YES


----------



## Ezekial (May 1, 2013)

OMG the Hashirama wank is unbearable, I'm out of here, Madara and Nagato win, Hashirama can not defeat the Rinnegan... Next chapter Madara will shit on Hashi so all this will be irrelevant


----------



## Shattering (May 1, 2013)

Ezekial said:


> OMG the Hashirama wank is unbearable, I'm out of here, Madara and Nagato win, Hashirama can not defeat the Rinnegan... Next chapter Madara will shit on Hashi so all this will be irrelevant



This guy


----------



## PlasticGear (May 1, 2013)

The problem with this is that it's EMS Madara, not current Madara. Current Madara might be able to give Hashirama a good fight or even beat him depending on the circumstances.

However, in this thread it's EMS Madara. And Hashirama has two killer moves that team 1 really has no answer to: Kajukai Kourin and Wood Buddha of Death. In addition, while Nagato's nukes are pretty cool, he doesn't really stand a chance against either of Hashirama's techniques.

Meanwhile, Itachi can do what Sasuke did against Killer Bee and light up the Kyuubizord with Amaterasu or stand next to Hashi and Susanoo with Totsuka at the ready to use against Madara after the PS armour gets peeled off.

The discrepancy between Hashirama without PIS and the other characters is just too large, IMO. Preta Path doesn't even make a noticable difference because as seen with Jiraiya vs Pain, it takes a while to absorb stuff. Nagato is sure as hell not going to absorb all of the Buddha before his team and the entire landmass they're fighting on takes a beating. And then it's a Tired Hashirama and the King vs a FUBAR Mads and Nagato.

I just can't see team 1 winning.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 1, 2013)

The only reason the Preta Path didn't absorb Jiraiya's Katon extremely fast was because Jiraiya was continuously using his Katon.


----------



## PlasticGear (May 1, 2013)

He still didn't absorb Jiraiya's COR very fast, and neither did he absorb Naruto's Rasenshuriken instantly. 

He's not going to absorb piles of wood that tower above even Bijuu and mountains in the time his wooden gatling gun destroys Madara. 

That's just my opinion though. If you believe that Preta can absorb the Death Star Buddha instantly *and* Kajukai Kourin then I can see why you believe team 1 wins.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 1, 2013)

PlasticGear said:


> He still didn't absorb Jiraiya's COR very fast, and neither did he absorb Naruto's Rasenshuriken instantly.
> 
> He's not going to absorb piles of wood that tower above even Bijuu and mountains in the time his wooden gatling gun destroys Madara.
> 
> That's just my opinion though. If you believe that Preta can absorb the Death Star Buddha instantly *and* Kajukai Kourin then I can see why you believe team 1 wins.



COR? Rasenshuriken was absorbed pretty quickly in a time that allowed Pain to not be attacked.

Why not? All his jutsu does is reverse the chakra flow of the target and absorbs whatever amount of raw chakra is there from said conversion- which wouldn't take long as we've seen countless times. From absorbing SM itself, to Bee's V2 shroud, to large Rasengan and Jiraiya's oil combo. Even large quantities of chakra like that from Jinton were absorbed very quickly. 

Though iffy at this point you can attribute the disappearance of Kakashi's shroud to Obito possibly using this power seeing as the Kyuubi shroud did disappear when Obito touched Kakashi.


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## PlasticGear (May 1, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> COR? Rasenshuriken was absorbed pretty quickly in a time that allowed Pain to not be attacked.



Chou Oodama Rasengan. I thought that was what it was called. If not, then it's the giant body-sized Rasengan that he used.

It was absorbed quickly, but not instantly. And i'm 100% sure that Giant Buddha of Death has WAY more chakra then a single Rasenshuriken. Keep in mind that the buddha's not going to just be sitting there, it's going to be attacking too. It's also controlled by Hashirama and kept up with Kyuubizord, both of which are top-tier. It's not slow by any means.



> Why not? All his jutsu does is reverse the chakra flow of the target and absorbs whatever amount of raw chakra is there from said conversion- which wouldn't take long as we've seen countless times. From absorbing SM itself, to Bee's V2 shroud, to large Rasengan and Jiraiya's oil combo. Even large quantities of chakra like that from Jinton were absorbed very quickly.



I don't doubt that Nagato can absorb chakra quickly or that he can absorb the chakra around him. Assuming that he can absorb the buddha, which i personally believe he can't, he can only defend himself from the technique absorbing whatever chakra comes into contact with his barrier. Meanwhile, Madara and the rest of the landscape are getting fisted hard by Hashirama. 



> Though iffy at this point you can attribute the disappearance of Kakashi's shroud to Obito possibly using this power seeing as the Kyuubi shroud did disappear when Obito touched Kakashi.



I'm not really sure what this has to do with anything  I don't remember the shroud disappearing, but maybe it's just plot to make sure that 2-3x faster Kakashi doesn't lolwdfblitz Obito or something.

Even if we go by everything that you've said (IE: Nagato can absorb the buddha, he can do so at a fast rate, and he can do so without fail), he still can't defend Mads at the same time, so again, it comes down to Nagato vs a tired (at worst) Hashirama and the King, and that's something i'm going to give to Team Wood more often then not.

If you believe that he can actually literally suck up the Buddha like Kamui or something then we're just going to have to agree to disagree, because I don't see that happening at all and believe it's quite ridiculous until we see something to the contrary in the Manga.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 1, 2013)

PlasticGear said:


> Chou Oodama Rasengan. I thought that was what it was called. If not, then it's the giant body-sized Rasengan that he used.
> 
> It was absorbed quickly, but not instantly. And i'm 100% sure that Giant Buddha of Death has WAY more chakra then a single Rasenshuriken. Keep in mind that the buddha's not going to just be sitting there, it's going to be attacking too. It's also controlled by Hashirama and kept up with Kyuubizord, both of which are top-tier. It's not slow by any means.



The Preta Path barrier completely surrounds Nagato, so if the statue tries to attack again, it'll suffer the same fate give to try and attack Nagato it would still have to try to get past the barrier.



> I don't doubt that Nagato can absorb chakra quickly or that he can absorb the chakra around him. Assuming that he can absorb the buddha, which i personally believe he can't, he can only defend himself from the technique absorbing whatever chakra comes into contact with his barrier. Meanwhile, Madara and the rest of the landscape are getting fisted hard by Hashirama.



Going buy Jiraiya's oil, any large AoE jutsu seems to sort of have its effect diminish whilst it makes it way towards the point the barrier is absorbing. So while Nagato's absorbing, Madara will have a decent time firing his insanely large Katon (or the smaller versions) towards Hashirama.
At which case Hashirama needs a contingency plan. 



> I'm not really sure what this has to do with anything  I don't remember the shroud disappearing, but maybe it's just plot to make sure that 2-3x faster Kakashi doesn't lolwdfblitz Obito or something.
> 
> Even if we go by everything that you've said (IE: Nagato can absorb the buddha, he can do so at a fast rate, and he can do so without fail), he still can't defend Mads at the same time, so again, it comes down to Nagato vs a tired (at worst) Hashirama and the King, and that's something i'm going to give to Team Wood more often then not.



The Kyuubi shroud is a lot of chakra. For example Kakashi is usually able to warp things like the Gedo Mazo's head while exerting himself. With the extra chakra from the shroud, apparently he can warp the entire Juubi. This speaks volumes regarding the chakra boost the shroud provides. 

If Obito did in fact use the Preta Path to absorb the shroud (not saying he doubtlessly did) then it would imply that the Preta Path hasn't got an issue with large chakra volumes. 

Surely you're underestimating Madara a bit here? Madara will be able to hold his own, especially as the one jutsu Hashirama used to take him out is more or less shut down. And Perfect Susanoo would be able to shine without that statue, especially if it is paired with Kyuubi/Gedo (depending on the scenario) alongside the dog summon which can essentially be used as fodder.


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## XxX yellowflash 47 XxX (May 1, 2013)

itachi and hashirama wins... nagato can fight itachi, itachi can counter his connected eyes sight with the rinnegan while also using susanno and that will beat nagato one hit the tutska blade and he gets sealed up just as he did when he fought killer bee itachi and naruto. if that happens madara will be left fighting itachi and hashirama seeing as the tutska blade can seal up nagato i dont see why it couldnt do the same to madara while even if itachi sits it out madara will loose to hashirama... why? because they fought on multiple occasions and hashirama had won the battle every time. saying madara is hashirama's equal is not at all the case he is the only person close to his strength while hashirama is the only person who can beat madara. madara wasnt even powerful enough to beat hashirama while he had kurama. he even used the susanno armor on it and he couldnt defeat hashirama. so it's obvious since he beat him on many times before without it im not sure how it would be different now. Now if itachi fights with him then it would be over kill simply because he would have to avoid susanno tutska blade along with wood style i dont think hashirama would even need sage mode. 

itachi & hashirama wins mid/ high difficulty


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## blk (May 1, 2013)

Someone address how in a fight without stipulations (where anyone can assume whatever condition of battle he wants), one can assert with certainty the winner; as no one still did it convincingly.





Bkprince33 said:


> Ok I apologize, I confused your argument with eizikel and Dracula.
> 
> Hmm even so I doubt it, kn8 was able to resist the pull of ct, which is nagato's strongest gravitational move, yeah it wasn't from Nagato himself but I doubt it would be potent enough to push the Buddha away even if it was from Nagato based on pains original showing, even if we give him a 50 percent more boost it should only be potent enough to push or pull the kyubi.



KN8 was still attached to the CT, it only broke the rock layer.

Further, what evidences do you have for say that CT's attraction is more powerful than CST's repulsion?
What evidences do you have for say that the buddha will not be pushed by CST?



> I doubt it would do much damage sm increases durability and It will boost his healing.
> 
> Not to mention if itachi and hashi clone feint Nagato the match is going to end sooner then later.



I said that Madara can exploit the opening that CST will provide, hence Hashirama can be ended with a PS slash (that will kill him immediatly, without giving to him the chance to heal).



> I need more info on the soul dragons, I doubt it would just pass threw moukuton, considering the fact that itachi's totsuka is a ethereal weapon yet it can't just phase threw objects.
> 
> Also as I said this strategy would require itachi and hashi to virtually stand there and do nothing. That is likely not happening.
> 
> ...



The soul dragons passed through the body of Hanzo's anbu, they are non-physical entities.
The Totsuka never passed through physical beings, it is ethereal but has different features than the dragons.

The fusion doesn't need more than few seconds, there is nothing that they can do for stop it (not even a Bijuudama stopped it).

Bringer of Darkness, a visual genjutsu, is casually broke with the Sharingan.


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## PlasticGear (May 1, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Surely you're underestimating Madara a bit here? Madara will be able to hold his own, especially as the one jutsu Hashirama used to take him out is more or less shut down. And Perfect Susanoo would be able to shine without that statue, especially if it is paired with Kyuubi/Gedo (depending on the scenario) alongside the dog summon which can essentially be used as fodder.



I honestly think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. Madara isn't a low-tier shinobi by any means, but the Buddha pretty much fucked up Kyuubizord and left Mads speechless. IC to kill, especially with some help, I believe that Hashi would fuck shit up with the Buddha even worse, especially if he just pulled it out of his arse again and/or had some help with Itachi.

Perhaps our opinions of the Buddha are just too far apart.


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## Baroxio (May 1, 2013)

I still don't see how Madara and Nagato survive Shinsuusenju. 

CT? Is Shinsuusenju weaker than a Hachibi Bijuudama and an FRS, despite countering multiple Full Kyuubi Bijuudama w/Perfect Susano sword attachments, while simultaneously managing to strip off a Perfect Susano that canonically withstood a Full Kyuubi Bijuudama without a scratch?

lol. just lol.

Preta? Even more lols. Shinsuusenju steps on him, falls down on him, etc. and Nagato is simply crushed by the ridiculous weight. Heaven forbid it actually attacks. Even if you think Nagato can absorb the Buudha for whatever reason, there are so many ways to get around such a technique that it's funny. The thing can just as well toss fucking mountains as easily as a schoolchild tosses grains of sand.

This doesn't even count Flower Pollen World, which easily oneshots.

All the while Itachi is running around with multiple OHKO jutsu against a *very *distracted Nagato and Madara and this match is nothing more than a joke.


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## crisler (May 2, 2013)

As of now...

The difference between Hashirama and EMS Madara is bigger than either Nagato or Itachi alone, so literally hashirama might solo...

EMS Madara was the closest guy strengthwise to hashirama yet he did need to kyuubi (although I believe madara also was restricted to some extent by constantly controlling the kyuubi) to fight and still lost in the end.

itachi and nagato are powerful ninjas...but kishi just made hashi and mada absurdly powerful. 

I don't think adding anyone(excluding edo  tensei army and jin paths) to madaras' side would give him victory against hashirama when you've taken away the kyuubi. minato, itachi, nagato, etc are all strong but i think hashi would still win...and OP has given itachi to hashirama, so the result seems obvious to me


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## Bkprince33 (May 3, 2013)

blk said:


> Someone address how in a fight without stipulations (where anyone can assume whatever condition of battle he wants), one can assert with certainty the winner; as no one still did it convincingly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kn8 broke threw the rock layer while the gravity was still holding him, that is impressive and shows with brute strength you can resist Nagato's gravity.

Well considering the fact that its nagato's trump card, and he didnt even attempt cst once he saw kn6 reverse st, I'm willing to say ct is stronger.


The sheer size of it is something we can't ignore, it literally dwarfed the kyubi.


blk said:


> I said that Madara can exploit the opening that CST will provide, hence Hashirama can be ended with a PS slash (that will kill him immediatly, without giving to him the chance to heal).


I find this unlikely, hashi's wood beast's will take the brunt of the blast and he's in sm, so durability is boosted along with his already advanced healing.


blk said:


> The soul dragons passed through the body of Hanzo's anbu, they are non-physical entities.
> The Totsuka never passed through physical beings, it is ethereal but has different features than the dragons.



Well a shushin works just fine, Hanzo was able to easily shushin from it.


blk said:


> The fusion doesn't need more than few seconds, there is nothing that they can do for stop it (not even a Bijuudama stopped it).



Madara had the luxury of going into battle with the kyubi already summoned, Nagato will need a break to summon gedo mazo.




blk said:


> Bringer of Darkness, a visual genjutsu, is casually broke with the Sharingan.



Madara will break the genjutsu effect on himself but what about the mazo, and Nagato?


The wooden dragon can also tackle mazo and restrain him.


Nagato and madara has virtually no answer to the thousand hand Buddah.


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## blk (May 3, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Kn8 broke threw the rock layer while the gravity was still holding him, that is impressive and shows with brute strength you can resist Nagato's gravity.
> 
> Well considering the fact that its nagato's trump card, and he didnt even attempt cst once he saw kn6 reverse st, I'm willing to say ct is stronger.



KN8 was still attached to it, therefore the beast never actually resisted to it (or not to a significant point).

We also know that Deva could have increased the gravitational power and that a CT done by Nagato himself is more powerful than one done by his Path.

Still, i don't see features that confirm your assertion that the Buddha won't be pushed back by Nagato's CST.



> I find this unlikely, hashi's wood beast's will take the brunt of the blast and he's in sm, so durability is boosted along with his already advanced healing.



PS's slashes have mountain busting power, Hashirama doesn't have the kind of durability required for survive to a direct hit.



> Well a shushin works just fine, Hanzo was able to easily shushin from it.



Yeah, but he cannot escape forever, also because there is a Nagato ready to Bt/ST him and stop his run.



> Madara had the luxury of going into battle with the kyubi already summoned, Nagato will need a break to summon gedo mazo.



Both Madara and Nagato can summon the Gedo.

However, the act of summoning something is extremely rapid, they'll not be able to stop him.




> Madara will break the genjutsu effect on himself but what about the mazo, and Nagato?
> 
> 
> The wooden dragon can also tackle mazo and restrain him.
> ...



The Gedo is a statue, it is doubtfull if it can be affected by genjutsu. Either way, Madara will control the Gedo so it's not really a problem.

Nagato can sense and summon one of his beats for utilize shared vision, and Madara will eventually break him out of it.

The wooden dragon is casually destroyed by PS's swords and Gedo's fire explosion and lighting.

Hashirama can't fight directly if the soul dragons are out, a frontal confrontation with the Buddha will not happen.


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## Bkprince33 (May 5, 2013)

blk said:


> KN8 was still attached to it, therefore the beast never actually resisted to it (or not to a significant point).
> 
> We also know that Deva could have increased the gravitational power and that a CT done by Nagato himself is more powerful than one done by his Path.
> 
> Still, i don't see features that confirm your assertion that the Buddha won't be pushed back by Nagato's CST.


It resisted it enough to the point ct was destroyed soon after.

More powerful true but if his path couldn't completly restrict kn8 I'm willing to wager, Nagato himself would be able to only restrict a full kyubi at best.


It isn't full blown proof of course, but this is something niether of us have, just going by nagato's previous feats this is the conclusion I draw, and I'm sure most would agree with me.


blk said:


> PS's slashes have mountain busting power, Hashirama doesn't have the kind of durability required for survive to a direct hit.


Madara would have to pin point hashi exact location to end him with a full blown ps slash, and this is to assume cst does anything significant to the thousand hand Buddah in the first place.



blk said:


> Yeah, but he cannot escape forever, also because there is a Nagato ready to Bt/ST him and stop his run.


Assuming hashi doesn't counter attack.


If hashi uses bringer of darkness, itachi would be able to capitalize and seal Nagato, similar to what he did in canon with the dust cloud.


blk said:


> Both Madara and Nagato can summon the Gedo.
> 
> However, the act of summoning something is extremely rapid, they'll not be able to stop him.


Ems madara cannot summon the gedo without hashi dna, you need the rinnengon to summon the gedo.



blk said:


> The Gedo is a statue, it is doubtfull if it can be affected by genjutsu. Either way, Madara will control the Gedo so it's not really a problem.


The gedo, has intelligence and is also a summon, if this is ems madara he cannot control the gedo.


blk said:


> Nagato can sense and summon one of his beats for utilize shared vision, and Madara will eventually break him out of it.


His beast can be genjutsu via itachi or easily removed from the equation via itachi, he already proved he can handle majority of nagato's summons, Nagato has no feats fighting strictly with sensing.


blk said:


> The wooden dragon is casually destroyed by PS's swords and Gedo's fire explosion and lighting.


The gedo can be restrain to the floor, or hashi could even use the golem and the wooden dragon to tag team the gedo.


blk said:


> Hashirama can't fight directly if the soul dragons are out, a frontal confrontation with the Buddha will not happen.



If Nagato is under bringer of darkness totsuka will be live, also hashi can overwhelm Nagato with multiple moukuton clones along side itachi.


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## blk (May 5, 2013)

@Bkprince33:

There is no need to continue the discussion, you have to realize that all i need to do to prove my point (which is that no team can be declared as winner in a scenario without conditions) is to present combinations that can end the match in the right circumstances (since this battle has no stipulations).
You are trying to prove a negative, which, by definition has an infinite number of  valid counter-examples.


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## Bkprince33 (May 5, 2013)

blk said:


> @Bkprince33:
> 
> There is no need to continue the discussion, you have to realize that all i need to do to prove my point (which is that no team can be declared as winner in a scenario without conditions) is to present combinations that can end the match in the right circumstances (since this battle has no stipulations).
> You are trying to prove a negative, which, by definition has an infinite number of  valid counter-examples.



Well we could just agree to disagree, you brought up some good points I will say though, unlike the other ppl I've debated on this topic.


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## KevKev (May 21, 2013)

Itachi Totsuka Blitzes Nagato while Hashirama Blitzes with the Senju Senpou Jutsu. They win with mid difficulty. 

Oh wait, better scenario:

Hashirama uses the Senpou Senju Jutsu to hold Madara and Nagato, they won't be able to use chakra because it'll just suck them dry. And then Itachi just finish them with Totsuka Blitz. 

There's 9 pages about this?


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